[ { "ID": "M2180E179P471C714272", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Motion without notice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27237, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 27237, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lochhead, Richard", "ID": 2180, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Lochhead", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Richard Lochhead (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 132.0, "ContributionID": 714272, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:55.944805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2180E179P471C714304", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lochhead, Richard", "ID": 2180, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Lochhead", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Richard Lochhead (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 197.0, "ContributionID": 714304, "EditedText": "Does the minister accept that, only yesterday, the chamber debated, on an Executive motion, laws that are several hundred years old?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the minister accept that, only yesterday, the chamber debated, on an Executive motion, laws that are several hundred years old?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:55.944805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1756E184P464C714555", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Grahame, Christine", "ID": 1756, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Christine Grahame", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Christine Grahame: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 734.0, "ContributionID": 714555, "EditedText": "I do not want to make a party political point. I am sure that the minister is aware of the Age Concern publication, \"Turning your back on us\"—it is a joint Age Concern/Gallup poll—which contains case studies that show clearly that age discrimination is prevalent in the national health service. I do not expect the minister to answer this question now, but will she, at some time, write to me to tell me which of the eight recommendations contained in that document are being implemented?", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not want to make a party political point. I am sure that the minister is aware of the Age Concern publication, \"Turning your back on us\"—it is a joint Age Concern/Gallup poll—which contains case studies that show clearly that age discrimination is prevalent in the national health service. I do not expect the minister to answer this question now, but will she, at some time, write to me to tell me which of the eight recommendations contained in that document are being implemented?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:00:07.7769616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1756E184P464C714541", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Grahame, Christine", "ID": 1756, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Christine Grahame", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 706.0, "ContributionID": 714541, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:00:05.3389306+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1773E197P503C714462", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27242, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 478.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27243, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 479.0, "QuestionHeading": "Poverty", "QuestionHeadingID": 27250, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 530.0, "DisplayOrder": 530.0, "ID": 27250, "ParentID": 27243 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hyslop, Fiona", "ID": 1773, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona Hyslop", "SpeakerDisplayName": "7. Fiona Hyslop (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 531.0, "ContributionID": 714462, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether poverty is increasing. (S1O-865) The Minister for Communities (Ms Wendy Alexander): Over the last 20 years, poverty in Scotland has increased, as described in our report \"Social Justice …a Scotland where everyone matters\". We have made it clear that our success as an Executive will be judged on how effectively we tackle poverty, and we have set out the measures by which we can be judged, through our annual social justice report.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether poverty is increasing. (S1O-865) The Minister for Communities (Ms Wendy Alexander): Over the last 20 years, poverty in Scotland has increased, as described in our report \"Social Justice …a Scotland where everyone matters\". We have made it clear that our success as an Executive will be judged on how effectively we tackle poverty, and we have set out the measures by which we can be judged, through our annual social justice report.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:01:48.3030692+00:00" }, { "ID": "C714209", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Thursday 16 December 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 27236, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 27236, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 2.0, "ContributionID": 714209, "EditedText": "THE PRESIDING OFFICER opened the meeting at 09:30", "EditedTextHTML": "[THE PRESIDING OFFICER opened the meeting at 09:30]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5138024+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C714210", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Thursday 16 December 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 27236, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 27236, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 3.0, "ContributionID": 714210, "EditedText": "Before we begin the business of the morning, I want to inform members that I have agreed that there will be a ministerial statement on Hampden Park from Mr Sam Galbraith at 12.15 pm today. As usual, the statement will be followed by questions. The first item of business is motion S1M-117, in the name of Michael Russell, on the Act of Settlement and an amendment to that motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "Before we begin the business of the morning, I want to inform members that I have agreed that there will be a ministerial statement on Hampden Park from Mr Sam Galbraith at 12.15 pm today. As usual, the statement will be followed by questions.

The first item of business is motion S1M-117, in the name of Michael Russell, on the Act of Settlement and an amendment to that motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5138024+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C714214", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Motion without notice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27237, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 27237, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 12.0, "ContributionID": 714214, "EditedText": "That is a clearer and longer version of what I just said.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is a clearer and longer version of what I just said.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5138024+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2038E191P344C714216", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Motion without notice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27237, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 27237, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Smith, Iain", "ID": 2038, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Iain Smith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Parliament (Iain Smith): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 17.0, "ContributionID": 714216, "EditedText": "On a point of order. I am a little confused. Mr Russell seems to be implying that he had knowledge of the report of the Rural Affairs Committee before it was published this morning at 7.30. My point of order is that yesterday, he said— The Presiding Officer: It was well known yesterday that the report would be published first thing this morning. The committee convener supplied me with a draft of the report and I trust that the report is now in the hands of every member.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. I am a little confused. Mr Russell seems to be implying that he had knowledge of the report of the Rural Affairs Committee before it was published this morning at

7.30. My point of order is that yesterday, he said— The Presiding Officer: It was well known yesterday that the report would be published first thing this morning. The committee convener supplied me with a draft of the report and I trust that the report is now in the hands of every member.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5138024+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C714217", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Motion without notice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27237, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 27237, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Richard Simpson (Ochil) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 19.0, "ContributionID": 714217, "EditedText": "At the risk of incurring your wrath, Presiding Officer, I want to inform you that that was not the point of order. The point of order was connected to the fact that Mr Russell referred to items in the report in laying the motion without notice before the Parliament. That is a relevant point of order.", "EditedTextHTML": "At the risk of incurring your wrath, Presiding Officer, I want to inform you that that was not the point of order. The point of order was connected to the fact that Mr Russell referred to items in the report in laying the motion without notice before the Parliament. That is a relevant point of order.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5138024+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C714218", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Motion without notice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27237, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 27237, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 21.0, "ContributionID": 714218, "EditedText": "Please continue, Mr Russell.", "EditedTextHTML": "Please continue, Mr Russell.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5138024+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C714221", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Motion without notice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27237, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 27237, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 27.0, "ContributionID": 714221, "EditedText": "Obviously, the Deputy First Minister's vote will not follow his voice—that is a matter for his conscience. The second point that I wish to raise this morning—Interruption.", "EditedTextHTML": "Obviously, the Deputy First Minister's vote will not follow his voice—that is a matter for his conscience.

The second point that I wish to raise this morning—[Interruption.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5138024+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2044E178P334C714224", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Motion without notice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27237, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 27237, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jenkins, Ian", "ID": 2044, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ian Jenkins", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ian Jenkins (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 33.0, "ContributionID": 714224, "EditedText": "On a point of order.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5138024+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C714226", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Motion without notice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27237, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 27237, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 37.0, "ContributionID": 714226, "EditedText": "It is a killer point.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is a killer point.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5138024+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C714231", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Motion without notice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27237, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 27237, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 48.0, "ContributionID": 714231, "EditedText": "Mr McCabe's name has come up on the screen. Would he prefer to wind up at the end?", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr McCabe's name has come up on the screen. Would he prefer to wind up at the end?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5138024+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2140E187P335C714233", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Motion without notice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27237, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 27237, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Rumbles, Mike", "ID": 2140, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Rumbles", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Mike Rumbles (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 53.0, "ContributionID": 714233, "EditedText": "I am a member of the Rural Affairs Committee, involved in the questioning of the minister on 3 December.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am a member of the Rural Affairs Committee, involved in the questioning of the minister on 3 December.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2228E151P202C714245", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Motion without notice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27237, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 27237, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McCabe, Tom", "ID": 2228, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Tom McCabe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McCabe: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 78.0, "ContributionID": 714245, "EditedText": "Thank you, Presiding Officer. I will finish the point that I was trying to make. I hope that when the Conservative party wraps itself in a union flag, it will remind the people who voted for it that it has spent so much time supporting the nationalists in the Parliament. On second thoughts, the Conservative members can save their time—we will do that for them.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you, Presiding Officer. I will finish the point that I was trying to make. I hope that when the Conservative party wraps itself in a union flag, it will remind the people who voted for it that it has spent so much time supporting the nationalists in the Parliament. On second thoughts, the Conservative members can save their time—we will do that for them.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C714246", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Motion without notice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27237, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 27237, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 80.0, "ContributionID": 714246, "EditedText": "On a point of order.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2228E151P202C714250", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Motion without notice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27237, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 27237, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McCabe, Tom", "ID": 2228, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Tom McCabe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McCabe: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 88.0, "ContributionID": 714250, "EditedText": "Mr Gallie misunderstands my point. This is another issue on which the Conservatives and the SNP agree. This is not an attempt by the Executive to veto the democratic rights of the Parliament—the people who are abusing parliamentary process are SNP members. We have a business motion that has been accepted by the Parliament and agreed by every party in the Parliamentary Bureau, yet, even though the SNP had the opportunity to amend the motion, it has used the guise of short notice to gain political advantage. I am glad to hear—", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Gallie misunderstands my point. This is another issue on which the Conservatives and the SNP agree.

This is not an attempt by the Executive to veto the democratic rights of the Parliament—the people who are abusing parliamentary process are SNP members. We have a business motion that has been accepted by the Parliament and agreed by every party in the Parliamentary Bureau, yet, even though the SNP had the opportunity to amend the motion, it has used the guise of short notice to gain political advantage. I am glad to hear—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1762E216P508C714251", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Motion without notice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27237, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 27237, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Elder, Dorothy-Grace", "ID": 1762, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 90.0, "ContributionID": 714251, "EditedText": "The minister is wasting our time.", "EditedTextHTML": "The minister is wasting our time.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2228E151P202C714252", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Motion without notice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27237, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 27237, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McCabe, Tom", "ID": 2228, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Tom McCabe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McCabe: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 92.0, "ContributionID": 714252, "EditedText": "I am glad that Mr Russell appreciates my clarification—we will try to enlighten the SNP at every possible opportunity. Perhaps we could enlighten SNP members further—I refer to their behaviour this morning. I implore you, Presiding Officer, to pay more attention to the heckling and disgraceful behaviour that happens regularly. The SNP had an opportunity to alter Parliament's business. The issue could have been dealt with and the scheme discussed today, if members had had sufficient notice to prepare for the debate. The fact that Mr Ewing had a motion in the business bulletin as early as Monday would have provided the SNP with sufficient time to make the necessary representations in the bureau and thus alter the business that was planned for today. It is a discourtesy to members to expect them to participate in a debate for which no prior notice was given. To replace Mr Ewing's motion, lodged on Monday, with another lodged by Mr Russell, and to expect it to be debated today, is an abuse of parliamentary time and its procedures.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am glad that Mr Russell appreciates my clarification—we will try to enlighten the SNP at every possible opportunity. Perhaps we could enlighten SNP members further—I refer to their behaviour this morning. I implore you, Presiding Officer, to pay more attention to the heckling and disgraceful behaviour that happens regularly.

The SNP had an opportunity to alter Parliament's business. The issue could have been dealt with and the scheme discussed today, if members had had sufficient notice to prepare for the debate. The fact that Mr Ewing had a motion in the business bulletin as early as Monday would have provided the SNP with sufficient time to make the necessary representations in the bureau and thus alter the business that was planned for today. It is a discourtesy to members to expect them to participate in a debate for which no prior notice was given.

To replace Mr Ewing's motion, lodged on Monday, with another lodged by Mr Russell, and to expect it to be debated today, is an abuse of parliamentary time and its procedures.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2228E151P202C714257", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Motion without notice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27237, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 27237, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McCabe, Tom", "ID": 2228, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Tom McCabe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McCabe: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 102.0, "ContributionID": 714257, "EditedText": "The kind of behaviour that we have seen from the SNP brings this chamber into disrepute. It is also of concern that such behaviour is coming from a member of the Procedures Committee. I hope that that committee will examine the tactics that have been used by the SNP to disrupt today's business plan, for which members have been preparing for some time.", "EditedTextHTML": "The kind of behaviour that we have seen from the SNP brings this chamber into disrepute. It is also of concern that such behaviour is coming from a member of the Procedures Committee. I hope that that committee will examine the tactics that have been used by the SNP to disrupt today's business plan, for which members have been preparing for some time.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C714261", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Motion without notice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27237, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 27237, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 110.0, "ContributionID": 714261, "EditedText": "I hope that this is a real point of order, because I am getting tired of false ones.", "EditedTextHTML": "I hope that this is a real point of order, because I am getting tired of false ones.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1775E171P452C714262", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Motion without notice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27237, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 27237, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeod, Fiona", "ID": 1775, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona McLeod", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona McLeod: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 112.0, "ContributionID": 714262, "EditedText": "On a point of order. If the Procedures Committee is going to follow Mr McCabe's recommendation, I hope that it will also look at—", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. If the Procedures Committee is going to follow Mr McCabe's recommendation, I hope that it will also look at—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1775E171P452C714264", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Motion without notice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27237, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 27237, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeod, Fiona", "ID": 1775, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona McLeod", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona McLeod: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 116.0, "ContributionID": 714264, "EditedText": "It is a point of order—", "EditedTextHTML": "It is a point of order—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2228E151P202C714268", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Motion without notice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27237, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 27237, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McCabe, Tom", "ID": 2228, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Tom McCabe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McCabe: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 124.0, "ContributionID": 714268, "EditedText": "That is just another distortion from the SNP. No one is saying that there is no support for the principle of ABIS.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is just another distortion from the SNP. No one is saying that there is no support for the principle of ABIS.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C714280", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Motion without notice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27237, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 27237, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 148.0, "ContributionID": 714280, "EditedText": "We must come to an immediate decision. The question is, that the motion in the name of Mike Russell, that motion S1M-392 be taken at this meeting of the Parliament, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "We must come to an immediate decision.

The question is, that the motion in the name of Mike Russell, that motion S1M-392 be taken at this meeting of the Parliament, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C714291", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 170.0, "ContributionID": 714291, "EditedText": "In a moment.Yesterday, Mr McAveety raised the issue with me in the tea room. He made a joke about me standing up for the poor Catholics of Glasgow, as if in some way it was a patronising action. I do not particularly want Mr McAveety to marry a monarch—the idea is pretty frightening—but I do want a society in which we can all say that there is no law that prevents anybody from doing anything because of religious discrimination.", "EditedTextHTML": "In a moment.

Yesterday, Mr McAveety raised the issue with me in the tea room. He made a joke about me standing up for the poor Catholics of Glasgow, as if in some way it was a patronising action. I do not particularly want Mr McAveety to marry a monarch—the idea is pretty frightening—but I do want a society in which we can all say that there is no law that prevents anybody from doing anything because of religious discrimination.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2029E47P167C714290", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Henry, Hugh", "ID": 2029, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Hugh Henry", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Hugh Henry (Paisley South) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 168.0, "ContributionID": 714290, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C714295", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 178.0, "ContributionID": 714295, "EditedText": "I have no doubt, but we do not all want to hear about them.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have no doubt, but we do not all want to hear about them.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C714296", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 180.0, "ContributionID": 714296, "EditedText": "I will not quote any of them again, Presiding Officer. I should say to Mr Henry that the motion is not a challenge to anybody. The argument that I put out arose because of representations made to me from the Labour benches—that this would be a challenge to Westminster. This is a challenge to decency in Scotland, not to Westminster. I acknowledge that Mr McCabe's amendment states the facts as they presently are and not as I would like to see them. I hope that, in those circumstances, the chamber would like to hear some positive intention from Mr McCabe. I hope that members can then move forward together. I do not support the constitutional settlement as it is at present. I hope that we will move on to a written constitution and a bill of rights. They would make this debate completely irrelevant. In such circumstances, it would be impossible to have discriminatory legislation. I regret that one of the excuses that has been given for inaction is that there would require to be change in 15 Commonwealth countries. Members will know from the material that we have been releasing over the past few days that that is not true. Any country with a written constitution and a bill of rights will automatically override the Act of Settlement. With a written constitution and a bill of rights, we could transfer the matter to the history books. We can do that today if the Parliament unites to say that we are in a process of change and of making Scotland a better country to live in. In those circumstances, we are in the process of removing any offence towards our fellow citizens. I hope that the tone of this debate will be one in which we can make those points. If we do not have a debate of that tone, the matter will not go away. We can take the matter away today. United, we can say that discrimination is wrong. Let us end it. That would be a suitable Christmas and millennium gift from this Parliament to the people of Scotland. I move,That the Parliament believes that the discrimination contained in the Act of Settlement has no place in our modern society, expresses its wish that those discriminatory aspects of the Act be repealed, and affirms its view that Scottish society must not disbar participation in any aspect of our national life on the grounds of religion.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will not quote any of them again, Presiding Officer.

I should say to Mr Henry that the motion is not a challenge to anybody. The argument that I put out arose because of representations made to me from the Labour benches—that this would be a challenge to Westminster. This is a challenge to decency in Scotland, not to Westminster.

I acknowledge that Mr McCabe's amendment states the facts as they presently are and not as I would like to see them. I hope that, in those circumstances, the chamber would like to hear some positive intention from Mr McCabe. I hope that members can then move forward together.

I do not support the constitutional settlement as it is at present. I hope that we will move on to a written constitution and a bill of rights. They would make this debate completely irrelevant. In such circumstances, it would be impossible to have discriminatory legislation.

I regret that one of the excuses that has been given for inaction is that there would require to be change in 15 Commonwealth countries. Members will know from the material that we have been releasing over the past few days that that is not true. Any country with a written constitution and a bill of rights will automatically override the Act of Settlement. With a written constitution and a bill of rights, we could transfer the matter to the history books. We can do that today if the Parliament unites to say that we are in a process of change and of making Scotland a better country to live in. In those circumstances, we are in the process of removing any offence towards our fellow citizens.

I hope that the tone of this debate will be one in which we can make those points. If we do not have a debate of that tone, the matter will not go away. We can take the matter away today. United, we can say that discrimination is wrong. Let us end it. That would be a suitable Christmas and millennium gift from this Parliament to the people of Scotland.

I move,

That the Parliament believes that the discrimination contained in the Act of Settlement has no place in our modern society, expresses its wish that those

discriminatory aspects of the Act be repealed, and affirms its view that Scottish society must not disbar participation in any aspect of our national life on the grounds of religion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C714298", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Alex Salmond (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 185.0, "ContributionID": 714298, "EditedText": "I think that Mr McCabe misunderstands—I am sure unwittingly—what Mike Russell is saying. We are not asking for a repetition of the fact that we do not have the power to change the act. We accept that. It is not something that we like, but we accept it as a fact. What we are asking for is an indication of intent from Mr McCabe in his position as a Labour party minister and an indication that the Labour party in government in Westminster intends to progress on this issue.", "EditedTextHTML": "I think that Mr McCabe misunderstands—I am sure unwittingly—what Mike Russell is saying. We are not asking for a repetition of the fact that we do not have the power to change the act. We accept that. It is not something that we like, but we accept it as a fact. What we are asking for is an indication of intent from Mr McCabe in his position as a Labour party minister and an indication that the Labour party in government in Westminster intends to progress on this issue.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2228E151P202C714305", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McCabe, Tom", "ID": 2228, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Tom McCabe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McCabe: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 199.0, "ContributionID": 714305, "EditedText": "The subject of yesterday's debate was within our competence; the subject of today's debate is not. We accept that politicians have the right to set their own priorities. I note in passing that, during the past 18 years, the only attempts—to our knowledge—to amend the Act of Settlement in the UK Parliament were made under the 10-minute rule. As far as we can determine, those attempts were promoted by Norman Hogg, the former Labour MP for Cumbernauld and John Home- Robertson, who is now a Labour MSP. I was therefore a little surprised that no explanation was offered, even on a point of intervention, by Mike Russell on behalf of the leader of his party, Mr Salmond, who has had 13 years in Westminster to raise this issue, including many opportunities presented by the Scottish Grand Committee. If it is any consolation, someone with a questioning mind might wonder why Lord Forsyth has to raise the issue now in the House of Lords.", "EditedTextHTML": "The subject of yesterday's debate was within our competence; the subject of today's debate is not.

We accept that politicians have the right to set their own priorities. I note in passing that, during the past 18 years, the only attempts—to our knowledge—to amend the Act of Settlement in the UK Parliament were made under the 10-minute rule. As far as we can determine, those attempts were promoted by Norman Hogg, the former Labour MP for Cumbernauld and John Home- Robertson, who is now a Labour MSP. I was therefore a little surprised that no explanation was offered, even on a point of intervention, by Mike Russell on behalf of the leader of his party, Mr Salmond, who has had 13 years in Westminster to raise this issue, including many opportunities presented by the Scottish Grand Committee. If it is any consolation, someone with a questioning mind might wonder why Lord Forsyth has to raise the issue now in the House of Lords.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2228E151P202C714301", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McCabe, Tom", "ID": 2228, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Tom McCabe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McCabe: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 191.0, "ContributionID": 714301, "EditedText": "The Westminster Parliament will know of this debate and be well aware of the opinions expressed in it and the vote on it. The Administration at Westminster, like the coalition Administration here, has a proud record in opposing discrimination. We hope that, in the years to come, the Opposition parties in this chamber will share that record of opposing discrimination. We are focusing the work of this Parliament on the scourge of domestic violence. We are focusing our work on ending child poverty. We want this Parliament to commit money to the areas of greatest need. We hope that the whole Parliament is determined to continue that work through the unprecedented powers that we now have. We should pursue an end to discrimination with vigour but we should do it in a way that will not deny social progress across the country. In moving the amendment we condemn discrimination and acknowledge it has no place in a multifaith, multicultural society. Being concerned about the Act of Settlement should not preclude a desire to tackle distortions of modern society that destroy life chances and deprive so many of our citizens of the right to develop their full potential. The two are not mutually exclusive. However, I am a little surprised by the decision to use Opposition time to debate a 300-year-old law. This afternoon, we will debate the challenges that face the health service in Scotland. Already this week there has been an expression of concern about the French ban on British beef. There are many other issues that the Scottish people might think more pressing for an opposition party debate.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Westminster Parliament will know of this debate and be well aware of the opinions expressed in it and the vote on it. The Administration at Westminster, like the coalition Administration here, has a proud record in opposing discrimination. We hope that, in the years to come, the Opposition parties in this chamber will share that record of opposing discrimination.

We are focusing the work of this Parliament on the scourge of domestic violence. We are focusing our work on ending child poverty. We want this Parliament to commit money to the areas of

greatest need. We hope that the whole Parliament is determined to continue that work through the unprecedented powers that we now have. We should pursue an end to discrimination with vigour but we should do it in a way that will not deny social progress across the country. In moving the amendment we condemn discrimination and acknowledge it has no place in a multifaith, multicultural society.

Being concerned about the Act of Settlement should not preclude a desire to tackle distortions of modern society that destroy life chances and deprive so many of our citizens of the right to develop their full potential. The two are not mutually exclusive. However, I am a little surprised by the decision to use Opposition time to debate a 300-year-old law. This afternoon, we will debate the challenges that face the health service in Scotland. Already this week there has been an expression of concern about the French ban on British beef. There are many other issues that the Scottish people might think more pressing for an opposition party debate.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2056E57P84C714311", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James", "ID": 2056, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "James Douglas-Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Lord James Douglas-Hamilton (Lothians) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 212.0, "ContributionID": 714311, "EditedText": "Mr Mike Russell is to be warmly congratulated for lodging this motion, which has given the Scottish Parliament the opportunity to consider this matter and the principles that are involved. Perhaps I should begin by answering Mr Tom McCabe's question about why this issue has not arisen before. I do not recollect the issue coming up before this year, and I believe that it has been placed on the agenda for two reasons. First, wholesale constitutional reform has meant that the entire constitution has come under the microscope. Secondly, the legislation is clearly inconsistent with the social inclusion that will be associated with the millennium. Those two factors, taken together, in my view caused this issue to be raised.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Mike Russell is to be warmly congratulated for lodging this motion, which has given the Scottish Parliament the opportunity to consider this matter and the principles that are involved. Perhaps I should begin by answering Mr Tom McCabe's question about why this issue has not arisen before.

I do not recollect the issue coming up before this year, and I believe that it has been placed on the agenda for two reasons. First, wholesale constitutional reform has meant that the entire constitution has come under the microscope. Secondly, the legislation is clearly inconsistent with the social inclusion that will be associated with the millennium. Those two factors, taken together, in my view caused this issue to be raised.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2029E47P167C714312", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Henry, Hugh", "ID": 2029, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Hugh Henry", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Hugh Henry: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 214.0, "ContributionID": 714312, "EditedText": "Was there anything that precluded the Conservative party from making progress on any of those issues, or on this specific issue, during its term in office?", "EditedTextHTML": "Was there anything that precluded the Conservative party from making progress on any of those issues, or on this specific issue, during its term in office?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C714345", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Goldie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 292.0, "ContributionID": 714345, "EditedText": "Does the member agree that the devolution settlement for Scotland and the increasing topicality of the monarchy during the past decade are perhaps, as Lord James indicated, one reason why attention has been focused on the constitutional aspects of the monarchy, the royal family and the particular significance of the Act of Settlement in relation to the royal family?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the member agree that the devolution settlement for Scotland and the increasing topicality of the monarchy during the past decade are perhaps, as Lord James indicated, one reason why attention has been focused on the constitutional aspects of the monarchy, the royal family and the particular significance of the Act of Settlement in relation to the royal family?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2134E160P198C714318", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McMahon, Michael", "ID": 2134, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton North and Bellshill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael McMahon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McMahon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 228.0, "ContributionID": 714318, "EditedText": "I accept that point and apologise for being wrong. As we saw during the previous debate on equality, the SNP members seem intent on spending their time complaining about what this Parliament cannot do, rather than showing what it can do. They believe that we should concentrate on outdated legislation affecting one privileged family, rather than delivering for all our families. They want the matter debated in the Scottish Parliament, not for the right reasons, but rather to divide our Parliament. Rather than debating the real issues that affect Scotland's people, they seek to use valuable time in the Scottish Parliament to debate an issue that is the preserve of another place.", "EditedTextHTML": "I accept that point and apologise for being wrong.

As we saw during the previous debate on equality, the SNP members seem intent on spending their time complaining about what this Parliament cannot do, rather than showing what it can do. They believe that we should concentrate on outdated legislation affecting one privileged family, rather than delivering for all our families. They want the matter debated in the Scottish Parliament, not for the right reasons, but rather to divide our Parliament. Rather than debating the real issues that affect Scotland's people, they seek to use valuable time in the Scottish Parliament to debate an issue that is the preserve of another place.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1950E155P451C714321", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Campbell, Colin", "ID": 1950, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Colin Campbell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Colin Campbell (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 235.0, "ContributionID": 714321, "EditedText": "I have been described as headmasterly, so I may as well behave like one and give my historian's address. I am sure that when the Act of Union 1707 and the Act of Settlement came along, my family in Argyllshire embraced both with vigour, but my family was wrong. Times have changed. I do not embrace the Act of Union or the Act of Settlement. The latter was a child of its time, when the religion of the monarch almost invariably dictated the faith of the entire population. It was inextricably bound up with the theory of divine right, which created a direct line between God and the monarch, and the association of the monarch with a religious infrastructure that supported that divine right. In progressive nations, that theory waned with the onset of constitutional democracy or with the arrival of vigorously anti-clerical republics, where monarchs who did not adapt, such as the Romanovs, went down cataclysmically. In their time, the Act of Settlement and similar expressions of exclusivity were the norm as the dominant faith in a nation attempted to maintain its position against the supposed menace of its religious minorities. It was perhaps justifiable to the people then, in times of institutionalised intolerance. At the end of the 20th century, when institutionalised and organised religion is less popular than it was, when an individual's right to chose their own faith or none is universally accepted in these islands, and when there are acts of Parliament that rightly demand equal opportunities and legislate against racism and sexism, the continued existence of the Act of Settlement can be seen as a last gasp from the past, or an eccentric blip. Eccentric blips can be harmless, but this one is not, because its terms disqualify one religious denomination from the throne of the United Kingdom and disqualify anyone with a claim to the throne who marries a Roman Catholic. Repeal of the act will not cause a rush of people marrying into the royal family, but this is a matter of principle. I would like to quote Cardinal Winning, not because I always agree with him—apart from anything else, I am a Presbyterian—but because in Scotland on Sunday on 5 September he said of the Act of Settlement: \"it is, in short, something of an embarrassing anachronism for both the Royal Family and the British Parliament.\" I do not think that anyone here would disagree with that, but it is not merely an embarrassing anachronism; it delivers a selective and negative message to one section of the population of Scotland and the United Kingdom—a message that is outmoded, biased and a relic of a bygone age. This is the last debating day of the 20th century and of the millennium for our new Scottish Parliament. The Parliament is in Edinburgh. In the age of enlightenment in the 18th century, Edinburgh was the Athens of the north, to which people looked for intellectual stimulus and forward thinking. What we do here today will send a signal of our mutual enlightenment to the Roman Catholics of Scotland and will confirm our determination to eradicate institutionalised inequality. Over 70 members have signed this motion. If every member votes for the motion, we will have joined in a consensual, modest but essential initiative, which will send the word from Scotland that institutionalised bigotry has no place in a modern nation. That is a good message to deliver on the eve of the millennium. I know, Tom McCabe, that there will be some administrative difficulties as this grinds its way inexorably through the system; however, I think that we would capture the mood of the Parliament, the mood of the people that we represent, and that we would give a lead to the UK Parliament and encourage it to follow our example.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have been described as headmasterly, so I may

as well behave like one and give my historian's address.

I am sure that when the Act of Union 1707 and the Act of Settlement came along, my family in Argyllshire embraced both with vigour, but my family was wrong. Times have changed. I do not embrace the Act of Union or the Act of Settlement. The latter was a child of its time, when the religion of the monarch almost invariably dictated the faith of the entire population. It was inextricably bound up with the theory of divine right, which created a direct line between God and the monarch, and the association of the monarch with a religious infrastructure that supported that divine right. In progressive nations, that theory waned with the onset of constitutional democracy or with the arrival of vigorously anti-clerical republics, where monarchs who did not adapt, such as the Romanovs, went down cataclysmically.

In their time, the Act of Settlement and similar expressions of exclusivity were the norm as the dominant faith in a nation attempted to maintain its position against the supposed menace of its religious minorities. It was perhaps justifiable to the people then, in times of institutionalised intolerance. At the end of the 20th century, when institutionalised and organised religion is less popular than it was, when an individual's right to chose their own faith or none is universally accepted in these islands, and when there are acts of Parliament that rightly demand equal opportunities and legislate against racism and sexism, the continued existence of the Act of Settlement can be seen as a last gasp from the past, or an eccentric blip. Eccentric blips can be harmless, but this one is not, because its terms disqualify one religious denomination from the throne of the United Kingdom and disqualify anyone with a claim to the throne who marries a Roman Catholic. Repeal of the act will not cause a rush of people marrying into the royal family, but this is a matter of principle.

I would like to quote Cardinal Winning, not because I always agree with him—apart from anything else, I am a Presbyterian—but because in Scotland on Sunday on 5 September he said of the Act of Settlement:

\"it is, in short, something of an embarrassing anachronism for both the Royal Family and the British Parliament.\"

I do not think that anyone here would disagree with that, but it is not merely an embarrassing anachronism; it delivers a selective and negative message to one section of the population of Scotland and the United Kingdom—a message that is outmoded, biased and a relic of a bygone age.

This is the last debating day of the 20th century and of the millennium for our new Scottish

Parliament. The Parliament is in Edinburgh. In the age of enlightenment in the 18th century, Edinburgh was the Athens of the north, to which people looked for intellectual stimulus and forward thinking. What we do here today will send a signal of our mutual enlightenment to the Roman Catholics of Scotland and will confirm our determination to eradicate institutionalised inequality.

Over 70 members have signed this motion. If every member votes for the motion, we will have joined in a consensual, modest but essential initiative, which will send the word from Scotland that institutionalised bigotry has no place in a modern nation. That is a good message to deliver on the eve of the millennium. I know, Tom McCabe, that there will be some administrative difficulties as this grinds its way inexorably through the system; however, I think that we would capture the mood of the Parliament, the mood of the people that we represent, and that we would give a lead to the UK Parliament and encourage it to follow our example.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1769E16P282C714325", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Smith, Elaine", "ID": 1769, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Coatbridge and Chryston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Smith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Elaine Smith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 246.0, "ContributionID": 714325, "EditedText": "Does Michael Matheson think that the Act of Settlement impinges greatly on the daily lives of the people in Scotland?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does Michael Matheson think that the Act of Settlement impinges greatly on the daily lives of the people in Scotland?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1769E16P282C714323", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Smith, Elaine", "ID": 1769, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Coatbridge and Chryston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Smith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Elaine Smith (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 241.0, "ContributionID": 714323, "EditedText": "I, too, am a wee bit surprised to be taking part in a full debate on this subject, although I signed the motion on the principle, about which there is no doubt. In signing the motion, I thought that Mike Russell's intention was to show the Parliament's feeling on this discriminatory act. The number of members, with differing religious beliefs, from all parties who signed the motion showed that any fair-minded person would like this anomaly to be removed from our law. Nevertheless, we are debating an issue over which we have no power to legislate. I will not repeat Michael McMahon, who quoted from last week's Scottish Catholic Observer, in which that point was made. However, if the SNP chooses to use its parliamentary time for this purpose, it is clearly its right to do so. We can, of course, express an opinion; I am happy to express mine. The Parliament was founded on the understanding that the principle of equality was at its heart. We have a powerful Equal Opportunities Committee and a responsibility for the promotion and encouragement of equal opportunities, within the Parliament and the Executive and across public authorities and bodies. The principle of equality should apply to all Scotland's people, in all areas of life. There can be no doubt that the Act of Settlement is discriminatory to Catholics—not only in Scotland, but throughout the UK and the Commonwealth—and is offensive to any reasonable person. I well remember, as a young girl, being told that the monarch was not allowed to marry a Catholic. I grew up with that knowledge and wondered why I should have any fewer rights than other Christians, people of other religions, or any other citizen, because I am a Catholic. However, to be perfectly honest, I do not think that the Act of Settlement impinged greatly on my life or on my ability to make the most of my opportunities. Nor do I believe that the act has great significance to the daily lives of my constituents in Coatbridge and Chryston. What affect their lives are issues such as poverty, drug use and abuse, anti-social neighbours, homelessness, lack of educational opportunities—the whole huge area of injustice that is social exclusion. They want the Parliament to deliver what it has the power to deliver: social justice for all. As outlined in the Equal Opportunities Committee's statement, Monsignor Tom Connelly, the spokesperson for the Roman Catholic Church in Scotland, recognised that the Government has other legislative priorities. There is no doubt that the sentiments expressed in Mike Russell's motion are right, but I hope that they are being expressed for the right reasons—raising awareness of, and tackling in due course, this unacceptable, discriminatory piece of legislation—and not out of political expediency. If the former is the case, I trust that members will be able to support the Executive's amendment, as I intend to do. The Act of Settlement has been around for 300 years. The views of many members in the chamber have been clearly expressed and I am sure that the majority of people in our society will welcome that. The act should be repealed. None the less, that is clearly a matter for Westminster to progress within its legislative framework; it is not for us to dictate a timetable for that. I support the amendment.", "EditedTextHTML": "I, too, am a wee bit surprised to be taking part in a full debate on this subject, although I signed the motion on the principle, about which there is no doubt. In signing the motion, I thought that Mike Russell's intention was to show the Parliament's feeling on this discriminatory act. The number of members, with differing religious beliefs, from all parties who signed the motion showed that any fair-minded person would like this anomaly to be removed from our law.

Nevertheless, we are debating an issue over which we have no power to legislate. I will not repeat Michael McMahon, who quoted from last week's Scottish Catholic Observer, in which that point was made. However, if the SNP chooses to use its parliamentary time for this purpose, it is clearly its right to do so. We can, of course, express an opinion; I am happy to express mine.

The Parliament was founded on the understanding that the principle of equality was at its heart. We have a powerful Equal Opportunities Committee and a responsibility for the promotion and encouragement of equal opportunities, within the Parliament and the Executive and across public authorities and bodies. The principle of equality should apply to all Scotland's people, in all areas of life. There can be no doubt that the Act of Settlement is discriminatory to Catholics—not only in Scotland, but throughout the UK and the Commonwealth—and is offensive to any reasonable person.

I well remember, as a young girl, being told that the monarch was not allowed to marry a Catholic. I grew up with that knowledge and wondered why I should have any fewer rights than other Christians, people of other religions, or any other citizen, because I am a Catholic. However, to be perfectly honest, I do not think that the Act of Settlement impinged greatly on my life or on my ability to make the most of my opportunities.

Nor do I believe that the act has great significance to the daily lives of my constituents in Coatbridge and Chryston. What affect their lives are issues such as poverty, drug use and abuse, anti-social neighbours, homelessness, lack of educational opportunities—the whole huge area of injustice that is social exclusion. They want the Parliament to deliver what it has the power to deliver: social justice for all.

As outlined in the Equal Opportunities Committee's statement, Monsignor Tom Connelly, the spokesperson for the Roman Catholic Church in Scotland, recognised that the Government has other legislative priorities. There is no doubt that the sentiments expressed in Mike Russell's motion are right, but I hope that they are being expressed for the right reasons—raising awareness of, and tackling in due course, this unacceptable, discriminatory piece of legislation—and not out of political expediency. If the former is the case, I trust that members will be able to support the Executive's amendment, as I intend to do.

The Act of Settlement has been around for 300 years. The views of many members in the chamber have been clearly expressed and I am sure that the majority of people in our society will

welcome that. The act should be repealed. None the less, that is clearly a matter for Westminster to progress within its legislative framework; it is not for us to dictate a timetable for that. I support the amendment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1908E166P251C714329", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Kerr, Andy", "ID": 1908, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Kilbride" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andy Kerr", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Kerr: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 255.0, "ContributionID": 714329, "EditedText": "Michael Russell fails to understand what we are trying to determine. We need to determine what the Parliament can and will do for the people of Scotland, not what it wishes to do. Mike Russell's e-mail to all MSPs clearly stated that the purpose of signing the motion was to send a message about the act, not to bring the motion to the chamber. That was dishonest and disingenuous of him. I want us to deal with the new Scotland that we want to achieve. The issue of the Act of Settlement has never been raised with me on the doorstep in years of campaigning; there has been a rarefied debate only. Nobody is saying that it is incorrect to deal with the issue, but it is not a priority and it is not practical. People want to deal with the issues of drugs, homelessness, the economy and unemployment. The Labour Government is committed to dealing with constitutional matters. No other Government has delivered in two years the amount of constitutional change that we have. The National Assembly for Wales, the Scottish Parliament, the social chapter of the European convention on human rights, the reform of the House of Lords— those are all major constitutional changes.", "EditedTextHTML": "Michael Russell fails to understand what we are trying to determine. We need to determine what the Parliament can and will do for the people of Scotland, not what it wishes to do.

Mike Russell's e-mail to all MSPs clearly stated that the purpose of signing the motion was to send a message about the act, not to bring the motion to the chamber. That was dishonest and disingenuous of him.

I want us to deal with the new Scotland that we want to achieve. The issue of the Act of Settlement has never been raised with me on the doorstep in years of campaigning; there has been a rarefied debate only. Nobody is saying that it is incorrect to deal with the issue, but it is not a priority and it is not practical. People want to deal with the issues of drugs, homelessness, the economy and unemployment.

The Labour Government is committed to dealing with constitutional matters. No other Government has delivered in two years the amount of constitutional change that we have. The National Assembly for Wales, the Scottish Parliament, the social chapter of the European convention on human rights, the reform of the House of Lords— those are all major constitutional changes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2140E187P335C714332", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Rumbles, Mike", "ID": 2140, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Rumbles", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Mike Rumbles (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 262.0, "ContributionID": 714332, "EditedText": "As several members have said, the Scottish Parliament is founded on the principle of equality, which should be applied to everyone. I was impressed with the speech by Lord James Douglas-Hamilton, which was the finest that I have heard in the chamber. I signed the motion in the name of Michael Russell because, although I recognise that the Act of Settlement is a reserved matter, I felt that we are duty bound to recognise and do something about the illiberal and in-built discrimination at the heart of our constitution. I say illiberal—and I speak for myself, as this is not a party line—as, to quote from the preamble to the constitution of the Scottish Liberal Democrats: \"Upholding these values of individual and social justice, we reject all prejudice and discrimination based upon race, colour, religion, age, disability, sex or sexual orientation and oppose all forms of entrenched privilege and inequality.\" That is why I have no hesitation in supporting today's motion by the Scottish National party, which calls for the Parliament to express a view that the Act of Settlement \"has no place in our modern society\"and to affirm that\"Scottish society must not disbar participation in any aspect of our national life on the grounds of religion.\" The excuse that we have more important things to do holds no sway with me. The Executive has asked Parliament to amend the motion by inserting at the end: \"recognises that . . . repeal raises complex constitutional issues, and that this is a matter reserved to UK Parliament\". I cannot see anything that I disagree with in the terms of the amendment, as it simply identifies the facts. I agree that it is a matter reserved for Westminster and that there are complex constitutional issues. I will support the amendment, as it does not take anything away from the motion—that is the important thing. I agree with Donald Gorrie's sentiments: why, oh why, does the Executive feel that it has to take a view on every single issue? However, what I do not accept about the amendment is the interpretation—if any interpretation is put on it— that no action should be taken to repeal the Act of Settlement because it is too complex. The fact that something is complex is no excuse for inaction. I should be grateful if the Executive clarified that important point in the summing up at the end of the debate.One of the complex issues identified in the debate is the coronation oath. I see that as something of a red herring. We live in a constitutional monarchy where the will of the people, as expressed through democratic parliamentary institutions such as this one, is supreme. In my view, there are no complex issues that cannot be reasonably overcome with a bit of political will. I am sure that this reform will not pose a problem for the royal family itself. I say that as the MSP with the privilege of representing an area that has many royal connections, Royal Deeside. In fact, I was on Balmoral estate last Friday. I would like to widen the debate by adding one more scenario to this examination of the Act of Settlement. We have, quite rightly, focused on the religious bias inherent in the act. When, at some time in future, the whole issue of the succession to the throne is examined by Westminster, we should take that opportunity to ensure that the succession is free of gender bias as well as of religious bias. Why should male children inherit the throne before female children? In the modern world, such bias should be completely unacceptable, and we should say so. In conclusion, I whole-heartedly support the motion, and I will support the Executive amendment. However, I would like the minister, in summing up, to assure Parliament that that amendment is not simply an excuse for others to do nothing.", "EditedTextHTML": "As several members have said, the Scottish Parliament is founded on the principle of equality, which should be applied to everyone.

I was impressed with the speech by Lord James Douglas-Hamilton, which was the finest that I have heard in the chamber.

I signed the motion in the name of Michael Russell because, although I recognise that the Act of Settlement is a reserved matter, I felt that we are duty bound to recognise and do something about the illiberal and in-built discrimination at the heart of our constitution. I say illiberal—and I speak for myself, as this is not a party line—as, to quote from the preamble to the constitution of the Scottish Liberal Democrats:

\"Upholding these values of individual and social justice, we reject all prejudice and discrimination based upon race, colour, religion, age, disability, sex or sexual orientation and oppose all forms of entrenched privilege and inequality.\"

That is why I have no hesitation in supporting today's motion by the Scottish National party, which calls for the Parliament to express a view that the Act of Settlement

\"has no place in our modern society\"

and to affirm that

\"Scottish society must not disbar participation in any aspect of our national life on the grounds of religion.\"

The excuse that we have more important things to do holds no sway with me. The Executive has asked Parliament to amend the motion by inserting at the end:

\"recognises that . . . repeal raises complex constitutional issues, and that this is a matter reserved to UK Parliament\".

I cannot see anything that I disagree with in the terms of the amendment, as it simply identifies the facts. I agree that it is a matter reserved for Westminster and that there are complex constitutional issues. I will support the amendment, as it does not take anything away from the motion—that is the important thing.

I agree with Donald Gorrie's sentiments: why, oh why, does the Executive feel that it has to take a view on every single issue? However, what I do not accept about the amendment is the interpretation—if any interpretation is put on it— that no action should be taken to repeal the Act of Settlement because it is too complex. The fact that something is complex is no excuse for inaction. I should be grateful if the Executive clarified that important point in the summing up at the end of

the debate.

One of the complex issues identified in the debate is the coronation oath. I see that as something of a red herring. We live in a constitutional monarchy where the will of the people, as expressed through democratic parliamentary institutions such as this one, is supreme. In my view, there are no complex issues that cannot be reasonably overcome with a bit of political will. I am sure that this reform will not pose a problem for the royal family itself. I say that as the MSP with the privilege of representing an area that has many royal connections, Royal Deeside. In fact, I was on Balmoral estate last Friday.

I would like to widen the debate by adding one more scenario to this examination of the Act of Settlement. We have, quite rightly, focused on the religious bias inherent in the act. When, at some time in future, the whole issue of the succession to the throne is examined by Westminster, we should take that opportunity to ensure that the succession is free of gender bias as well as of religious bias. Why should male children inherit the throne before female children? In the modern world, such bias should be completely unacceptable, and we should say so.

In conclusion, I whole-heartedly support the motion, and I will support the Executive amendment. However, I would like the minister, in summing up, to assure Parliament that that amendment is not simply an excuse for others to do nothing.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2090E83P266C714338", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAllion, Mr John", "ID": 2090, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dundee East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John McAllion", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McAllion: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 276.0, "ContributionID": 714338, "EditedText": "I will deal with members' points later on—I will come to the Act of Union 1707. But why do we not choose any one of a number of acts that were passed by the English Parliament at that time, which were probably even more offensive to Catholics than the Act of Settlement? For example, in 1700, one of the acts against popery actually rewarded with £100 people who apprehended and prosecuted popish bishops, priests or Jesuits. Before anyone gets too excited, it did not mention cardinals.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will deal with members' points later on—I will come to the Act of Union 1707.

But why do we not choose any one of a number of acts that were passed by the English Parliament at that time, which were probably even more offensive to Catholics than the Act of Settlement? For example, in 1700, one of the acts against popery actually rewarded with £100 people who apprehended and prosecuted popish bishops, priests or Jesuits. Before anyone gets too excited, it did not mention cardinals.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2118E157P454C714339", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Quinan, Mr Lloyd", "ID": 2118, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lloyd Quinan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Quinan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 278.0, "ContributionID": 714339, "EditedText": "Does Mr McAllion agree that the act to which he refers was repealed at the time of the Roman Catholic Relief Act 1829?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does Mr McAllion agree that the act to which he refers was repealed at the time of the Roman Catholic Relief Act 1829?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2090E83P266C714340", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAllion, Mr John", "ID": 2090, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dundee East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John McAllion", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McAllion: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 280.0, "ContributionID": 714340, "EditedText": "I am grateful for that, because if it had not been, Cardinal Winning might be in trouble. I hope that the 1689 act that expelled Catholics from London was also repealed at the time of the Roman Catholic Relief Act. It required the mayor of London to arrest any Catholics found within 10 miles of the City of London. I do not want to make the race to become mayor of London any more complicated, but if Ken Livingston wins it, a family that lives in 10 Downing Street could be in very serious trouble if that act has not been repealed. Laughter. It is, of course, the Act of Union that enshrines the Act of Settlement in the law of Scotland. Article II says that \"all papists and persons marrying papists should be excluded from . . . the imperial crown of Great Britain.\" I know that the Scottish National party has quite legitimately campaigned all through its existence for the repeal of the Act of Union, and I hear what Alex Salmond said about its most recent manifesto. However, in a quarter century of fighting the SNP, I have never once heard it argue for the repeal of the Act of Union on the ground that it discriminated against Catholics. Not once have I been in a debate during which any SNP member has put that particular argument. I am opposed to discrimination, whatever form it takes. I believe that the true test of any democracy is not how it provides for rule by the majority, but how it protects and nurtures the minorities within it. I support the motion, but I do not think that the amendment changes the motion in any way. The amendment does not say that change should not happen; if it did, I would not support it. But the amendment does not preclude change—however complicated that change may be—and I think that that change should take place. However, I do not think that repealing the Act of Settlement as it exists in the Act of Union will take on the challenge of removing the stain of sectarianism from our society. If we are to do that, we will have to do it in very different ways. Like Tommy Sheridan, I am a republican. Not only do I not lie awake worrying about who will succeed to the British throne, but when I do think about it, I am determined that there should be no discrimination. Catholics, Protestants, atheists, Muslims, Hindus—nobody should succeed to the British throne. I do not want a British or a Scottish throne. I do not want anybody to succeed to it. Also like Tommy, I hope that the debate might set a precedent, and that we may at some time be able to take on that other great anachronism in this country—the constitutional monarchy. The constitutional monarchy puts all political sovereignty in the hands of a small political elite; it denies the people the popular sovereignty that exists in every democracy elsewhere in the world; and it makes us subjects rather than citizens. Let us have a debate about that. I think that the Catholics of Scotland would applaud that more than they would this morning's debate.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful for that, because if it had not been, Cardinal Winning might be in trouble. I hope that the 1689 act that expelled

Catholics from London was also repealed at the time of the Roman Catholic Relief Act. It required the mayor of London to arrest any Catholics found within 10 miles of the City of London. I do not want to make the race to become mayor of London any more complicated, but if Ken Livingston wins it, a family that lives in 10 Downing Street could be in very serious trouble if that act has not been repealed. [Laughter.]

It is, of course, the Act of Union that enshrines the Act of Settlement in the law of Scotland. Article II says that

\"all papists and persons marrying papists should be excluded from . . . the imperial crown of Great Britain.\"

I know that the Scottish National party has quite legitimately campaigned all through its existence for the repeal of the Act of Union, and I hear what Alex Salmond said about its most recent manifesto. However, in a quarter century of fighting the SNP, I have never once heard it argue for the repeal of the Act of Union on the ground that it discriminated against Catholics. Not once have I been in a debate during which any SNP member has put that particular argument.

I am opposed to discrimination, whatever form it takes. I believe that the true test of any democracy is not how it provides for rule by the majority, but how it protects and nurtures the minorities within it. I support the motion, but I do not think that the amendment changes the motion in any way. The amendment does not say that change should not happen; if it did, I would not support it. But the amendment does not preclude change—however complicated that change may be—and I think that that change should take place.

However, I do not think that repealing the Act of Settlement as it exists in the Act of Union will take on the challenge of removing the stain of sectarianism from our society. If we are to do that, we will have to do it in very different ways.

Like Tommy Sheridan, I am a republican. Not only do I not lie awake worrying about who will succeed to the British throne, but when I do think about it, I am determined that there should be no discrimination. Catholics, Protestants, atheists, Muslims, Hindus—nobody should succeed to the British throne. I do not want a British or a Scottish throne. I do not want anybody to succeed to it.

Also like Tommy, I hope that the debate might set a precedent, and that we may at some time be able to take on that other great anachronism in this country—the constitutional monarchy. The constitutional monarchy puts all political sovereignty in the hands of a small political elite; it denies the people the popular sovereignty that exists in every democracy elsewhere in the world; and it makes us subjects rather than citizens. Let us have a debate about that. I think that the

Catholics of Scotland would applaud that more than they would this morning's debate.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1762E216P508C714349", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Elder, Dorothy-Grace", "ID": 1762, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 300.0, "ContributionID": 714349, "EditedText": "I just want to point out that—", "EditedTextHTML": "I just want to point out that—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C714350", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 302.0, "ContributionID": 714350, "EditedText": "Is the member giving way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is the member giving way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1837E108P186C714351", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mulligan, Mary", "ID": 1837, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Linlithgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Mulligan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Mulligan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 304.0, "ContributionID": 714351, "EditedText": "No.Why do Mike Russell and the SNP think that anyone in their right mind would want to be part of the royal family? I was born and brought up in Liverpool. I have lived and worked in a number of places, including Glasgow and Edinburgh, but it was not until this year that I saw religious bigotry at its worst, not in my election campaign, but during a colleague's campaign in the council elections. My colleague was outed as a Catholic, as if it was something to be ashamed of. I would have had more respect for the supporters of the motion, particularly Alex Salmond, the SNP leader who lives in West Lothian, if he had condemned such action and defended the democratic process instead of backing this cynical move, which will help only a few people and supports an unelected elite. In my experience, Catholics are just like other members of the community. They are concerned about the health service, education and jobs. Last week, we had an excellent debate on the Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill. One thing that was not discussed was how we enable people with terminal illnesses to live out their last days with dignity. Living wills are a sensitive issue, but the Parliament has a duty to tackle, not avoid such issues. Many of my constituents—Catholics and non-Catholics—would feel that the Parliament was working for them if we faced up to such issues. The willingness to tackle controversial issues would be a sign that the new politics really had arrived in Scotland. Today's debate is nonsense if we expect the people of Scotland to take the Parliament seriously. The amendment accepts that the Act of Settlement is wrong, but recognises the reality of what the Parliament can do. I know, and I am sure the people of Scotland will understand, that the SNP does not want this Parliament to work. The motion is an insult to the intelligence of the people of Scotland, particularly Catholics. If SNP members think that they can curry favour with any community in such an exploitative way, the people of Scotland will send them home to think again.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

Why do Mike Russell and the SNP think that anyone in their right mind would want to be part of the royal family?

I was born and brought up in Liverpool. I have lived and worked in a number of places, including Glasgow and Edinburgh, but it was not until this year that I saw religious bigotry at its worst, not in my election campaign, but during a colleague's campaign in the council elections. My colleague was outed as a Catholic, as if it was something to be ashamed of. I would have had more respect for the supporters of the motion, particularly Alex Salmond, the SNP leader who lives in West Lothian, if he had condemned such action and defended the democratic process instead of backing this cynical move, which will help only a few people and supports an unelected elite.

In my experience, Catholics are just like other members of the community. They are concerned about the health service, education and jobs. Last week, we had an excellent debate on the Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill. One thing that was not discussed was how we enable people with terminal illnesses to live out their last days with dignity. Living wills are a sensitive issue, but the Parliament has a duty to tackle, not avoid such issues. Many of my constituents—Catholics and non-Catholics—would feel that the Parliament was working for them if we faced up to such issues. The willingness to tackle controversial issues would be a sign that the new politics really had arrived in Scotland.

Today's debate is nonsense if we expect the people of Scotland to take the Parliament seriously. The amendment accepts that the Act of Settlement is wrong, but recognises the reality of what the Parliament can do. I know, and I am sure the people of Scotland will understand, that the SNP does not want this Parliament to work. The motion is an insult to the intelligence of the people of Scotland, particularly Catholics. If SNP

members think that they can curry favour with any community in such an exploitative way, the people of Scotland will send them home to think again.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C714352", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 307.0, "ContributionID": 714352, "EditedText": "On behalf of my party, I take exception to some of the remarks that have just been made. I was brought up in the United Free Church of Scotland in a small mining village in south Ayrshire. My grandmother was a Catholic. Since I can remember, I have abhorred discrimination for or against Catholics throughout society, in Scotland or anywhere else. The first job that I had was as a 14-year-old schoolboy—a summer job as a cleaner in Butlin's holiday camp. The first question that I was asked was, \"Whit fit dae ye kick wi?\" I did not even know what the question meant. When I found out, I was disgusted. I say to Mary Mulligan that today's debate is not a party political question for the Tories, the SNP, the Labour party or the Lib Dems. Surely the Parliament can rise to the occasion. Surely we can lift our sights above petty party politics. This debate is about a fundamental principle. I agree with Tom McCabe that the Act of Settlement is not the talk of the steamie—if there are any steamies left in Scotland. I agree with what Tommy Sheridan said and with what Lord James Douglas-Hamilton said, and I agree with Mike Rumbles that Lord James's speech was probably the best that we have heard in this chamber. The debate is about the message that we want to send out as a new Parliament for a new Scotland in a new millennium. It is about the symbolism of the Act of Settlement and the symbolism of the continued existence of legislation on the statute book that embodies an element of sectarianism and of discrimination against Catholics.", "EditedTextHTML": "On behalf of my party, I take exception to some of the remarks that have just been made.

I was brought up in the United Free Church of Scotland in a small mining village in south Ayrshire. My grandmother was a Catholic. Since I can remember, I have abhorred discrimination for or against Catholics throughout society, in Scotland or anywhere else. The first job that I had was as a 14-year-old schoolboy—a summer job as a cleaner in Butlin's holiday camp. The first question that I was asked was, \"Whit fit dae ye kick wi?\" I did not even know what the question meant. When I found out, I was disgusted.

I say to Mary Mulligan that today's debate is not a party political question for the Tories, the SNP, the Labour party or the Lib Dems. Surely the Parliament can rise to the occasion. Surely we can lift our sights above petty party politics.

This debate is about a fundamental principle. I agree with Tom McCabe that the Act of Settlement is not the talk of the steamie—if there are any steamies left in Scotland. I agree with what Tommy Sheridan said and with what Lord James Douglas-Hamilton said, and I agree with Mike Rumbles that Lord James's speech was probably the best that we have heard in this chamber.

The debate is about the message that we want to send out as a new Parliament for a new Scotland in a new millennium. It is about the symbolism of the Act of Settlement and the symbolism of the continued existence of legislation on the statute book that embodies an element of sectarianism and of discrimination against Catholics.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2029E47P167C714353", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Henry, Hugh", "ID": 2029, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Hugh Henry", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Hugh Henry (Paisley South) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 309.0, "ContributionID": 714353, "EditedText": "Having listened to Alex Neil's fine words and strong statement against sectarianism and discrimination, I ask him whether he will, on behalf of the SNP, assure Mary Mulligan that the people whom she identified as being responsible for sectarian politics in her area will be dealt with very firmly by the SNP.", "EditedTextHTML": "Having listened to Alex Neil's fine words and strong statement against sectarianism and discrimination, I ask him whether he will, on behalf of the SNP, assure Mary Mulligan that the people whom she identified as being responsible for sectarian politics in her area will be dealt with very firmly by the SNP.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C714354", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 311.0, "ContributionID": 714354, "EditedText": "The SNP's approach to dealing with such people is in its constitution.", "EditedTextHTML": "The SNP's approach to dealing with such people is in its constitution.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C714358", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 319.0, "ContributionID": 714358, "EditedText": "My substantive point stands—the act is a denial of human rights on both sides. People have made a big issue of the fact that this Parliament does not have the legislative power to change the Act of Settlement. Of course it does not. We know that. This Parliament operates at three levels. We operate at the legislative level, although we do not have legislative power on this matter. We also operate on a political level and a moral level. Mary Mulligan used the word responsibility. The Parliament does not have legislative responsibility on this matter, but I argue that we have the moral and political responsibility to send a loud and clear message—not just to Westminster and not just to people south of the border, but to our own people here in Scotland—that the Parliament will not tolerate any form of discrimination or anti-Catholic behaviour. I agree with John McAllion that discrimination in Scotland will not end if the motion is carried or even if the act is repealed. However, this debate is about sending a loud and clear message that the Parliament is determined to end discrimination. The Act of Settlement is one part of that; it is only the beginning. We will take whatever measures necessary to convey to the people of Scotland, and of further afield, that this new Parliament and the new Scotland will not tolerate discrimination of any kind at any time, irrespective of political party.", "EditedTextHTML": "My substantive point stands—the act is a denial of human rights on both sides.

People have made a big issue of the fact that this Parliament does not have the legislative power to change the Act of Settlement. Of course it does not. We know that. This Parliament operates at three levels. We operate at the legislative level, although we do not have legislative power on this matter. We also operate on a political level and a moral level.

Mary Mulligan used the word responsibility. The Parliament does not have legislative responsibility on this matter, but I argue that we have the moral and political responsibility to send a loud and clear message—not just to Westminster and not just to people south of the border, but to our own people here in Scotland—that the Parliament will not tolerate any form of discrimination or anti-Catholic behaviour.

I agree with John McAllion that discrimination in Scotland will not end if the motion is carried or even if the act is repealed. However, this debate is about sending a loud and clear message that the Parliament is determined to end discrimination. The Act of Settlement is one part of that; it is only the beginning. We will take whatever measures necessary to convey to the people of Scotland, and of further afield, that this new Parliament and the new Scotland will not tolerate discrimination of any kind at any time, irrespective of political party.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2134E160P198C714366", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McMahon, Michael", "ID": 2134, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton North and Bellshill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael McMahon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McMahon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 337.0, "ContributionID": 714366, "EditedText": "We all welcome the fact that the Equal Opportunities Committee has been set up. The complaint that has been made of it is that the SNP spends too much time addressing what that committee cannot talk about rather than what it can talk about. We need a positive agenda in this Parliament, which we are not getting.", "EditedTextHTML": "We all welcome the fact that the Equal Opportunities Committee has been set up. The complaint that has been made of it is that the SNP spends too much time addressing what that committee cannot talk about rather than what it can talk about. We need a positive agenda in this Parliament, which we are not getting.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2029E47P167C714370", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Henry, Hugh", "ID": 2029, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Hugh Henry", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Hugh Henry: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 346.0, "ContributionID": 714370, "EditedText": "I hope that allowance will be made in my speaking time for the time that has been taken up by Kenny Gibson's speech.", "EditedTextHTML": "I hope that allowance will be made in my speaking time for the time that has been taken up by Kenny Gibson's speech.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2029E47P167C714372", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Henry, Hugh", "ID": 2029, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Hugh Henry", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Hugh Henry: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 350.0, "ContributionID": 714372, "EditedText": "The Labour party has acted on that issue, and I leave it at that. We are now able to conduct a mature and responsible debate. However, I say to the SNP that many of my friends and family are quizzical about why we are spending three hours talking about the Act of Settlement—about whether or not Catholics are able to marry into what is increasingly becoming an irrelevant institution in this country—instead of talking about some of the fundamental issues that affect Catholics in this country.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Labour party has acted on that issue, and I leave it at that.

We are now able to conduct a mature and responsible debate. However, I say to the SNP that many of my friends and family are quizzical about why we are spending three hours talking about the Act of Settlement—about whether or not Catholics are able to marry into what is increasingly becoming an irrelevant institution in this country—instead of talking about some of the fundamental issues that affect Catholics in this country.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C714377", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 360.0, "ContributionID": 714377, "EditedText": "To round off and balance this debate, I will take two final quick speeches, one from Jamie Stone and the other from Frank McAveety.", "EditedTextHTML": "To round off and balance this debate, I will take two final quick speeches, one from Jamie Stone and the other from Frank McAveety.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C714394", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Hampden Park", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27239, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 385.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 385.0, "ID": 27239, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Galbraith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 401.0, "ContributionID": 714394, "EditedText": "I like Mr Monteith's last point on wanting the public to start taking up shares in private companies—that isdeparture for a Tory politician. an interesting Mr Monteith: For a flotation. Mr Galbraith: It is quite interesting how members of his party have shifted over time; and good on them—they have learned their lesson.", "EditedTextHTML": "I like Mr Monteith's last point on wanting the public to start taking up shares in private companies—that isdeparture for a Tory politician. an interesting Mr Monteith: For a flotation. Mr Galbraith: It is quite interesting how members of his party have shifted over time; and good on them—they have learned their lesson.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1996E124P211C714379", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAveety, Mr Frank", "ID": 1996, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Shettleston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Local Government", "SpeakerName": "Frank McAveety", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Local Government (Mr Frank McAveety): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 366.0, "ContributionID": 714379, "EditedText": "I rise today only partially to respond to a disappointing contribution from Mike Russell, who had the courtesy to apologise to me in the fabled tea room. Only in Scotland would the secretary of state have to go on national television and admit in the course of a debate that he was a Roman Catholic. Only in this country would more than 10 members have to preface their comments by indicating their religious affiliation. What unites us is a recognition that the Act of Settlement is inappropriate in a contemporary setting. I believe that the amendment addresses that and that we can look forward to change. I do not think that we need to revisit the past. I accept what Lord James Douglas-Hamilton said in his speech. I am less interested in Lord Forsyth's contribution. If he had left it to civil servants, I am sure that they would never have brought forward the poll tax, which was a key objective of his. The Conservatives did not take the opportunity to change this legislation, but I appreciate what Lord James has said. Members of the House of Commons have had the chance to table amendments, but nobody has made an effort to do so. Today we have an opportunity to use this debate to facilitate an open discussion about tackling issues that other members have identified. Economic disadvantage and discrimination have been endemic in Scottish life. One of the key events that changed the life experience of people from my background was, curiously enough, the Education Act (Scotland) 1918, which facilitated educational opportunities for people of my background. I know that people have views on that, and that may be a debate in the future. We share views on that privately, and openly in this chamber and in places where it is appropriate to mention such matters.", "EditedTextHTML": "I rise today only partially to respond to a disappointing contribution from Mike Russell, who had the courtesy to apologise to me in the fabled tea room.

Only in Scotland would the secretary of state have to go on national television and admit in the course of a debate that he was a Roman Catholic. Only in this country would more than 10 members have to preface their comments by indicating their religious affiliation.

What unites us is a recognition that the Act of Settlement is inappropriate in a contemporary setting. I believe that the amendment addresses that and that we can look forward to change. I do not think that we need to revisit the past. I accept what Lord James Douglas-Hamilton said in his speech. I am less interested in Lord Forsyth's contribution. If he had left it to civil servants, I am sure that they would never have brought forward the poll tax, which was a key objective of his. The Conservatives did not take the opportunity to change this legislation, but I appreciate what Lord James has said. Members of the House of Commons have had the chance to table amendments, but nobody has made an effort to do so.

Today we have an opportunity to use this debate to facilitate an open discussion about tackling issues that other members have identified. Economic disadvantage and discrimination have been endemic in Scottish life. One of the key events that changed the life experience of people from my background was, curiously enough, the Education Act (Scotland) 1918, which facilitated educational opportunities for people of my background. I know that people have views on

that, and that may be a debate in the future. We share views on that privately, and openly in this chamber and in places where it is appropriate to mention such matters.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C714380", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 368.0, "ContributionID": 714380, "EditedText": "We have run over a little. I ask closing speakers to trim their speeches by one minute each.", "EditedTextHTML": "We have run over a little. I ask closing speakers to trim their speeches by one minute each.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2142E142P230C714397", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Hampden Park", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27239, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 385.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 385.0, "ID": 27239, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Watson, Mike", "ID": 2142, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Cathcart" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Watson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mike Watson (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 407.0, "ContributionID": 714397, "EditedText": "I should declare an interest: I am a tenant of Queen's Park Football Club, as my constituency office is there. I welcome the statement and the fact that the national stadium can now go ahead with some certainty. The minister mentioned the wholly new body that has been set up to manage the stadium under the auspices of the SFA. How will the Executive oversee the money that has been put in? Will there be a representative from sportscotland on that board, or whatever executive body is formed? Will other organisations— including Queen's Park Football Club and, of course, the SFA itself—be directly represented so that they can look after their own interests? What will be the form of the new body?", "EditedTextHTML": "I should declare an interest: I am a tenant of Queen's Park Football Club, as my constituency office is there. I welcome the statement and the fact that the national stadium can now go ahead with some certainty. The minister mentioned the wholly new body that has been set up to manage the stadium under the auspices of the SFA. How will the Executive oversee the money that has been put in? Will there be a representative from sportscotland on that board, or whatever executive body is formed? Will other organisations— including Queen's Park Football Club and, of course, the SFA itself—be directly represented so that they can look after their own interests? What will be the form of the new body?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C714388", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Hampden Park", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27239, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 385.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 385.0, "ID": 27239, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Children and Education (Mr Sam Galbraith): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 389.0, "ContributionID": 714388, "EditedText": "With permission, Presiding Officer, I would like to make a statement. As members will be aware, Queen's Park Football Club and its subsidiary, the National Stadium plc, have run into serious financial problems carrying out major redevelopment works at the stadium. I am pleased to announce to Parliament that we are very close to reaching final agreement on a detailed rescue package that will secure not only the continuation of the project with all its aims and objectives intact, but the survival of Queen's Park, Scotland's oldest football club. Although the problems are in no way attributable to the Scottish Executive, because of the importance of Hampden to the nation, the Scottish Executive has taken on a key role in finding the solution. The redevelopment of Hampden is a flagship millennium project—one of the largest to be funded by the Millennium Commission in Scotland. The Scottish Office was a minor funder of the project; its decision to contribute £2 million was taken in 1996 when the Conservative Administration was in power. I announced on 14 October that broad agreement had been reached on a rescue deal but I emphasised that further detailed work and complex negotiations were required before the problems could be fully resolved. That has proved to be the case. The rescue deal is still subject to finalisation of some detailed points and completion and execution of legal documentation. I urge all the parties to permit no further delay in bringing matters to a full and final conclusion. I am very pleased, however, that a stage has been reached at which I can make a substantive statement to Parliament before the recess. In my statement, I will give as full and frank an explanation of the background and outcome as I can. I shall do so within the constraints placed on me by contractual obligations to maintain confidentiality and by a proper regard for the legitimate commercial interests of the private companies involved. Although the Scottish Executive and the other co-funders have played a key role in securing the deal, the co-operation of other parties, including Queen's Park's principal creditors, has been essential. I wish to place on record the Scottish Executive's thanks for their contributions to the rescue deal and to achieving an outcome that the great majority of people in Scotland will welcome. I particularly wish to thank Sir William McAlpine for his understanding and forbearance as the negotiations over the rescue package have dragged on. Hampden stadium and adjacent land is owned by Queen's Park FC. Through agreements with the Scottish Football Association, it has been Scotland's national football stadium for nearly a century. It was a condition of Millennium Commission funding that a subsidiary company, the National Stadium plc, was set up to manage the redevelopment project and operate the stadium. On completion of the redevelopment, the facilities will comprise a stadium suitable for football and other purposes, office accommodation, a football museum, a lecture theatre, conference and catering facilities and an all-sports injury clinic. The original estimated cost of the project was £51 million. The Millennium Commission was the major funder, with a grant of £23 million. The Scottish Office contributed £2 million over three years channelled through sportscotland's grant in aid. Other public funders were the Scottish Sports Council, which contributed £3.75 million of lottery money, the Glasgow Development Agency, which contributed £1.6 million for derelict land clearance, the Football Trust and the then Strathclyde Regional Council and Glasgow District Council. A management contract between Queen's Park and the principal contractor, McAlpine, was entered into and the construction works began in February 1997. Work completed to date has cost some £60.6 million. The estimated final cost is £65.7 million if all the planned works are carried out. However, the work to be completed includes works that are not essential to enable the stadium to operate fully and works relating to the Scottish football museum for which responsibility lies with the SFA Museum Trust, not the project. The debenture scheme was launched several months behind schedule in November 1998. That did not generate the income expected for the project, being only one third taken up before it was relaunched in advance of the recent Scotland versus England game. The project managers were successful in attracting commercial sponsorship well in excess of their original target, but that was still not enough to cover the additional costs incurred. The cost overruns on the project have three main causes: extra costs on agreed project items as a result of increased specifications; additional works that were not part of the original project and were not agreed with co-funders; and acceleration costs to stage the Scottish cup final in May 1999. When the Millennium Commission alerted the Scottish Executive to the present problems in late July, Queen's Park FC already owed to the principal contractor money that it was unable to pay. Having considered financial information supplied by the club and National Stadium plc, the co-funders concluded that they required an independent financial and technical assessment of the project before they could properly consider whether further financial involvement in the project was justified. The consultancy team comprised firms of quantity surveyors, accountants, management consultants and solicitors. The purpose of the assessment was to enable the co-funders to understand how the problems had arisen, to establish or verify their full nature and extent and to identify possible solutions. In essence, we found that the project management had become product-driven rather than cost- driven. Insufficient attention had been devoted to securing the resources required to complete all the works. On the basis of the consultants' interim findings, the co-funders agreed to move towards a work-out solution to the problems, within which they would contribute to a rescue package, subject to certain terms and conditions. The five main co-funders— the Millennium Commission, the Scottish Executive, Glasgow Development Agency, sportscotland and Glasgow City Council—were willing to contribute up to £4.4 million to the rescue package, subject to due diligence and the necessary approvals. The Scottish Executive is committed to contributing £2 million to the package. The £4.4 million fell some way short of bridging Queen's Park FC's deficit on the capital component of the project. After proposals were put to Queen's Park FC and National Stadium plc, it was necessary for a complex process of negotiation to be undertaken with other parties that had a financial interest in the project, who might be able to contribute to the achievement of a rescue package. They included the two companies' creditors, in particular the main contractor, McAlpine, and the Royal Bank of Scotland. Two main conditions were attached to the cofunders' further financial contribution: a new management structure for stadium operation and a viable long-term business plan for the stadium. The co-funders considered that major changes in the arrangements for governance and management of the stadium were necessary to secure viability in the longer term. They were conscious that the Scottish Football Association would be a major user of the stadium, since it would not only stage matches there but planned to rent office accommodation, space for the football museum and associated activities and make use of the lecture theatre and conference facilities and the sports injury clinic. The SFA's rental payment would have represented most of the guaranteed income for the stadium operation. The fact of the matter is that Hampden is not the national football stadium without the involvement and co-operation of the SFA. It seemed to the cofunders to be both logical and appropriate that the SFA be asked to take on a direct role in the management of the stadium. I will detail the key elements of the rescue package. McAlpine has accepted a settlement that involves a cash payment of £3.4 million and debentures which would cost £1.4 million to buy. The co-funders will meet the cash component and Queen's Park FC is giving the debentures from a stock that had not been offered for sale to the general public. We are in the final stages of concluding agreements with other parties to ensure that the funding gap on the construction phase of the project is bridged. I am sure members understand that these are very sensitive negotiations, but they represent the last part of the process. The remaining £1 million of the co-funders' money will be paid to the Royal Bank of Scotland. That will reduce Queen's Park's indebtedness to the bank to a level that can be accommodated within the new management arrangements. The bank has agreed to convert its underwriting of the debenture scheme, which was due to expire in March 2000, to a term loan to Queen's Park. The bank is also co-operating in other ways that are essential to ensuring an orderly transition from the present arrangements to the new management set-up. The SFA has agreed to take on responsibility for the future management of the stadium under a lease granted by Queen's Park. The lease will run for 20 years, with an option on the SFA's part to extend it for a further 20 years. The level of rent payments will enable Queen's Park to pay off outstanding debts and derive an income to help meet its running cost requirements. Queen's Park will continue to own the stadium and adjacent land. There will be a reciprocal rights agreement between the SFA and Queen's Park, which will enable Queen's Park to continue to use the main stadium for matches and other purposes and the SFA to make use of Lesser Hampden for squad training and car parking when major matches are being staged in the main stadium. The co-funders' consultants examined carefully the viability of the stadium operation in the longer term. The co-funders were satisfied, as a result of that work, that there was a viable business there, so long as it did not have to service an unduly high level of debt incurred on the construction phase of the project. The work persuaded the SFA, which carried out its own due diligence, to accept, in principle, responsibility for managing the stadium. In taking on a full repairing lease, the SFA is, of course, accepting the operational risks and liabilities as well as the potential rewards. Responsibility for drawing up and implementing a business plan for the stadium now rests with the SFA. Despite the mistakes and misjudgments that have been made by the project—which are not attributable to any one person—we now have a magnificent national football stadium with excellent facilities on the south side of Glasgow. Hampden is there: it is virtually complete and it is operational. It has just received the accolade of being allocated the final of the Champions League, in 2002. I am hopeful that the rescue deal will be concluded this week. If that is the case, it will maintain the historic relationship between the oldest club and Scottish football's national governing body. It will be a different relationship, but once things settle down, I hope it will be a better relationship. It will allow Queen's Park to continue to uphold the amateur principle within senior level football. We now need to move forward. As we enter a new millennium, we want to see confidence in the project restored. We want everyone in Scotland to see that we have a national football stadium of which we can be rightly proud. I commend this statement to the Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "With permission, Presiding Officer, I would like to make a statement.

As members will be aware, Queen's Park Football Club and its subsidiary, the National Stadium plc, have run into serious financial problems carrying out major redevelopment works at the stadium. I am pleased to announce to Parliament that we are very close to reaching final agreement on a detailed rescue package that will secure not only the continuation of the project with all its aims and objectives intact, but the survival of Queen's Park, Scotland's oldest football club.

Although the problems are in no way attributable to the Scottish Executive, because of the importance of Hampden to the nation, the Scottish Executive has taken on a key role in finding the solution. The redevelopment of Hampden is a flagship millennium project—one of the largest to be funded by the Millennium Commission in Scotland. The Scottish Office was a minor funder of the project; its decision to contribute £2 million was taken in 1996 when the Conservative Administration was in power.

I announced on 14 October that broad agreement had been reached on a rescue deal but I emphasised that further detailed work and complex negotiations were required before the problems could be fully resolved. That has proved to be the case. The rescue deal is still subject to finalisation of some detailed points and completion and execution of legal documentation. I urge all the parties to permit no further delay in bringing matters to a full and final conclusion. I am very pleased, however, that a stage has been reached at which I can make a substantive statement to Parliament before the recess.

In my statement, I will give as full and frank an explanation of the background and outcome as I can. I shall do so within the constraints placed on me by contractual obligations to maintain confidentiality and by a proper regard for the legitimate commercial interests of the private companies involved.

Although the Scottish Executive and the other co-funders have played a key role in securing the deal, the co-operation of other parties, including

Queen's Park's principal creditors, has been essential. I wish to place on record the Scottish Executive's thanks for their contributions to the rescue deal and to achieving an outcome that the great majority of people in Scotland will welcome. I particularly wish to thank Sir William McAlpine for his understanding and forbearance as the negotiations over the rescue package have dragged on.

Hampden stadium and adjacent land is owned by Queen's Park FC. Through agreements with the Scottish Football Association, it has been Scotland's national football stadium for nearly a century. It was a condition of Millennium Commission funding that a subsidiary company, the National Stadium plc, was set up to manage the redevelopment project and operate the stadium.

On completion of the redevelopment, the facilities will comprise a stadium suitable for football and other purposes, office accommodation, a football museum, a lecture theatre, conference and catering facilities and an all-sports injury clinic.

The original estimated cost of the project was £51 million. The Millennium Commission was the major funder, with a grant of £23 million. The Scottish Office contributed £2 million over three years channelled through sportscotland's grant in aid. Other public funders were the Scottish Sports Council, which contributed £3.75 million of lottery money, the Glasgow Development Agency, which contributed £1.6 million for derelict land clearance, the Football Trust and the then Strathclyde Regional Council and Glasgow District Council.

A management contract between Queen's Park and the principal contractor, McAlpine, was entered into and the construction works began in February 1997. Work completed to date has cost some £60.6 million. The estimated final cost is £65.7 million if all the planned works are carried out. However, the work to be completed includes works that are not essential to enable the stadium to operate fully and works relating to the Scottish football museum for which responsibility lies with the SFA Museum Trust, not the project.

The debenture scheme was launched several months behind schedule in November 1998. That did not generate the income expected for the project, being only one third taken up before it was relaunched in advance of the recent Scotland versus England game.

The project managers were successful in attracting commercial sponsorship well in excess of their original target, but that was still not enough to cover the additional costs incurred.

The cost overruns on the project have three main causes: extra costs on agreed project items

as a result of increased specifications; additional works that were not part of the original project and were not agreed with co-funders; and acceleration costs to stage the Scottish cup final in May 1999.

When the Millennium Commission alerted the Scottish Executive to the present problems in late July, Queen's Park FC already owed to the principal contractor money that it was unable to pay. Having considered financial information supplied by the club and National Stadium plc, the co-funders concluded that they required an independent financial and technical assessment of the project before they could properly consider whether further financial involvement in the project was justified. The consultancy team comprised firms of quantity surveyors, accountants, management consultants and solicitors.

The purpose of the assessment was to enable the co-funders to understand how the problems had arisen, to establish or verify their full nature and extent and to identify possible solutions. In essence, we found that the project management had become product-driven rather than cost- driven. Insufficient attention had been devoted to securing the resources required to complete all the works.

On the basis of the consultants' interim findings, the co-funders agreed to move towards a work-out solution to the problems, within which they would contribute to a rescue package, subject to certain terms and conditions. The five main co-funders— the Millennium Commission, the Scottish Executive, Glasgow Development Agency, sportscotland and Glasgow City Council—were willing to contribute up to £4.4 million to the rescue package, subject to due diligence and the necessary approvals. The Scottish Executive is committed to contributing £2 million to the package.

The £4.4 million fell some way short of bridging Queen's Park FC's deficit on the capital component of the project. After proposals were put to Queen's Park FC and National Stadium plc, it was necessary for a complex process of negotiation to be undertaken with other parties that had a financial interest in the project, who might be able to contribute to the achievement of a rescue package. They included the two companies' creditors, in particular the main contractor, McAlpine, and the Royal Bank of Scotland.

Two main conditions were attached to the cofunders' further financial contribution: a new management structure for stadium operation and a viable long-term business plan for the stadium. The co-funders considered that major changes in the arrangements for governance and management of the stadium were necessary to secure viability in the longer term. They were conscious that the Scottish Football Association would be a major user of the stadium, since it would not only stage matches there but planned to rent office accommodation, space for the football museum and associated activities and make use of the lecture theatre and conference facilities and the sports injury clinic. The SFA's rental payment would have represented most of the guaranteed income for the stadium operation.

The fact of the matter is that Hampden is not the national football stadium without the involvement and co-operation of the SFA. It seemed to the cofunders to be both logical and appropriate that the SFA be asked to take on a direct role in the management of the stadium.

I will detail the key elements of the rescue package. McAlpine has accepted a settlement that involves a cash payment of £3.4 million and debentures which would cost £1.4 million to buy. The co-funders will meet the cash component and Queen's Park FC is giving the debentures from a stock that had not been offered for sale to the general public. We are in the final stages of concluding agreements with other parties to ensure that the funding gap on the construction phase of the project is bridged. I am sure members understand that these are very sensitive negotiations, but they represent the last part of the process.

The remaining £1 million of the co-funders' money will be paid to the Royal Bank of Scotland. That will reduce Queen's Park's indebtedness to the bank to a level that can be accommodated within the new management arrangements. The bank has agreed to convert its underwriting of the debenture scheme, which was due to expire in March 2000, to a term loan to Queen's Park. The bank is also co-operating in other ways that are essential to ensuring an orderly transition from the present arrangements to the new management set-up.

The SFA has agreed to take on responsibility for the future management of the stadium under a lease granted by Queen's Park. The lease will run for 20 years, with an option on the SFA's part to extend it for a further 20 years. The level of rent payments will enable Queen's Park to pay off outstanding debts and derive an income to help meet its running cost requirements. Queen's Park will continue to own the stadium and adjacent land.

There will be a reciprocal rights agreement between the SFA and Queen's Park, which will enable Queen's Park to continue to use the main stadium for matches and other purposes and the SFA to make use of Lesser Hampden for squad training and car parking when major matches are being staged in the main stadium.

The co-funders' consultants examined carefully the viability of the stadium operation in the longer term. The co-funders were satisfied, as a result of that work, that there was a viable business there, so long as it did not have to service an unduly high level of debt incurred on the construction phase of the project. The work persuaded the SFA, which carried out its own due diligence, to accept, in principle, responsibility for managing the stadium.

In taking on a full repairing lease, the SFA is, of course, accepting the operational risks and liabilities as well as the potential rewards. Responsibility for drawing up and implementing a business plan for the stadium now rests with the SFA. Despite the mistakes and misjudgments that have been made by the project—which are not attributable to any one person—we now have a magnificent national football stadium with excellent facilities on the south side of Glasgow.

Hampden is there: it is virtually complete and it is operational. It has just received the accolade of being allocated the final of the Champions League, in 2002. I am hopeful that the rescue deal will be concluded this week. If that is the case, it will maintain the historic relationship between the oldest club and Scottish football's national governing body. It will be a different relationship, but once things settle down, I hope it will be a better relationship. It will allow Queen's Park to continue to uphold the amateur principle within senior level football.

We now need to move forward. As we enter a new millennium, we want to see confidence in the project restored. We want everyone in Scotland to see that we have a national football stadium of which we can be rightly proud. I commend this statement to the Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1837E108P186C714401", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Hampden Park", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27239, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 385.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 385.0, "ID": 27239, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mulligan, Mary", "ID": 1837, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Linlithgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Mulligan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Mary Mulligan (Linlithgow) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 415.0, "ContributionID": 714401, "EditedText": "Will the minister explain why he was not able to give a briefing to the Education, Culture and Sport Committee on this matter prior to his statement? Given that he has said that agreements have yet to be finalised, will he assure the committee that he will attend the committee after the recess and answer any questions, if that is necessary?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister explain why he was not able to give a briefing to the Education, Culture and Sport Committee on this matter prior to his statement? Given that he has said that agreements have yet to be finalised, will he assure the committee that he will attend the committee after the recess and answer any questions, if that is necessary?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C714402", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Hampden Park", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27239, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 385.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 385.0, "ID": 27239, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Galbraith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 417.0, "ContributionID": 714402, "EditedText": "I will be delighted—as always—to come along to the Education, Culture and Sport Committee and be questioned on these matters. That is an important part of the democratic process. Negotiations are still continuing on the final details of the rescue package. I want to give the committee the fullest and most up-to-date information, which is why I have not been able to attend before this. The consultants will provide us with a contract round-up letter, which will be a very detailed account of the situation and take into account the issue of commercial confidentiality. I will ensure that the committee receives a copy of that letter.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will be delighted—as always—to come along to the Education, Culture and Sport Committee and be questioned on these matters. That is an important part of the democratic process.

Negotiations are still continuing on the final details of the rescue package. I want to give the committee the fullest and most up-to-date information, which is why I have not been able to attend before this.

The consultants will provide us with a contract round-up letter, which will be a very detailed account of the situation and take into account the issue of commercial confidentiality. I will ensure that the committee receives a copy of that letter.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1973E119P326C714403", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Hampden Park", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27239, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 385.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 385.0, "ID": 27239, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gorrie, Donald", "ID": 1973, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Donald Gorrie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Donald Gorrie (Central Scotland) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 419.0, "ContributionID": 714403, "EditedText": "The minister explained that the Government's monitoring has been adequate and correct, but the net result has not been adequate and correct. Does he plan to review how this affair has been conducted, both by the previous Conservative Government, which started it, and the Labour Government at Westminster, which continued it? We need to learn from this situation, as other projects not far from this chamber are in development. Consistently overspending on such projects is not good news for anyone.", "EditedTextHTML": "The minister explained that the Government's monitoring has been adequate and correct, but the net result has not been adequate and correct. Does he plan to review how this affair has been conducted, both by the previous Conservative Government, which started it, and the Labour Government at Westminster, which continued it? We need to learn from this situation, as other projects not far from this chamber are in development. Consistently overspending on such projects is not good news for anyone.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2051E74P295C714413", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Hampden Park", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27239, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 385.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 385.0, "ID": 27239, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Welsh, Ian", "ID": 2051, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ayr" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ian Welsh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ian Welsh (Ayr) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 439.0, "ContributionID": 714413, "EditedText": "The minister will be well aware of my view that public money could have been used more productively to finance and promote football in ways other than building a new national stadium. However, the stadium having been built, is the minister completely satisfied that the rescue package, which I know to have been the product of tortuous negotiations, is robust enough to be sustainable in the longer term?", "EditedTextHTML": "The minister will be well aware of my view that public money could have been used more productively to finance and promote football in ways other than building a new national stadium. However, the stadium having been built, is the minister completely satisfied that the rescue package, which I know to have been the product of tortuous negotiations, is robust enough to be sustainable in the longer term?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C714414", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Hampden Park", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27239, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 385.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 385.0, "ID": 27239, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Galbraith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 441.0, "ContributionID": 714414, "EditedText": "My friend raises the rights and wrongs of the national stadium. That argument raged for years. All of us have different views, but we need not consider them now. The deed is done. The stadium is there and it needed money. We had to pick it up at that stage. Tortuous is a euphemism for what we had to go through in the negotiations to arrive at this rescue package. The stadium is robust, the business plan is sound and the management arrangements are in place. I look forward to the national stadium having a good future.", "EditedTextHTML": "My friend raises the rights and wrongs of the national stadium. That argument raged for years. All of us have different views, but we need not consider them now. The deed is done. The stadium is there and it needed money. We had to pick it up at that stage.

Tortuous is a euphemism for what we had to go through in the negotiations to arrive at this rescue package. The stadium is robust, the business plan is sound and the management arrangements are in place. I look forward to the national stadium having a good future.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "C714421", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27240, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 451.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 451.0, "ID": 27240, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 455.0, "ContributionID": 714421, "EditedText": "That the Parliament agrees the following programme of business—", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament agrees the following programme of business—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "C714422", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27240, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 451.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 451.0, "ID": 27240, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 456.0, "ContributionID": 714422, "EditedText": "Wednesday 12 January 2000", "EditedTextHTML": "Wednesday 12 January 2000

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "C714425", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27240, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 451.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 451.0, "ID": 27240, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 459.0, "ContributionID": 714425, "EditedText": "Thursday 13 January 2000", "EditedTextHTML": "Thursday 13 January 2000

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "C714426", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27240, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 451.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 451.0, "ID": 27240, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 460.0, "ContributionID": 714426, "EditedText": "9.30 am Executive Debate on Housing followed by Business Motion followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions", "EditedTextHTML": "9.30 am Executive Debate on Housing followed by Business Motion followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "C714430", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27240, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 451.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 451.0, "ID": 27240, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 464.0, "ContributionID": 714430, "EditedText": "5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business", "EditedTextHTML": "5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "C714432", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27240, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 451.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 451.0, "ID": 27240, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 467.0, "ContributionID": 714432, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C714433", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Deputy Conveners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27241, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 468.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 468.0, "ID": 27241, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 469.0, "ContributionID": 714433, "EditedText": "We now come to motion S1M-388, on deputy committee conveners.", "EditedTextHTML": "We now come to motion S1M-388, on deputy committee conveners.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "C714434", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Deputy Conveners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27241, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 468.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 468.0, "ID": 27241, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 471.0, "ContributionID": 714434, "EditedText": "Motion moved,", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion moved,

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C714437", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Deputy Conveners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27241, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 468.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 468.0, "ID": 27241, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 474.0, "ContributionID": 714437, "EditedText": "The question on the motion will be put at decision time. Question, That the meeting be now adjourned until 2.30 pm today, put and agreed to.—Mr McCabe.", "EditedTextHTML": "The question on the motion will be put at decision time. Question, That the meeting be now adjourned until 2.30 pm today, put and agreed to.—[Mr McCabe.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C714440", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27242, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 478.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27243, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 479.0, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 479.0, "ID": 27243, "ParentID": 27242 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 480.0, "ContributionID": 714440, "EditedText": "We begin this afternoon with question time. I remind members of the requirement of the standing order that supplementary questions should be brief and relate to the same matter as the original question.", "EditedTextHTML": "We begin this afternoon with question time. I remind members of the requirement of the standing order that supplementary questions should be brief and relate to the same matter as the original question.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C714442", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27242, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 478.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27243, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 479.0, "QuestionHeading": "Prime Minister (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27244, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 482.0, "DisplayOrder": 482.0, "ID": 27244, "ParentID": 27243 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 485.0, "ContributionID": 714442, "EditedText": "Will the First Minister comment on reports that Tony Blair did not even consult him before rejecting Monsieur Jospin's offer to allow some Scottish beef into the French market? Is it not about time that the First Minister stood up for the rights of the people of Scotland, instead of allowing a Downing Street spin-doctor to state that there was no need for Tony to consult Donald, because he knew that Donald would agree with him without being asked?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the First Minister comment on reports that Tony Blair did not even consult him before rejecting Monsieur Jospin's offer to allow some Scottish beef into the French market? Is it not about time that the First Minister stood up for the rights of the people of Scotland, instead of allowing a Downing Street spin-doctor to state that there was no need for Tony to consult Donald, because he knew that Donald would agree with him without being asked?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C714447", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27242, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 478.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27243, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 479.0, "QuestionHeading": "Housing Partnership Initiative", "QuestionHeadingID": 27245, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 493.0, "DisplayOrder": 493.0, "ID": 27245, "ParentID": 27243 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Communities (Ms Wendy Alexander): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 496.0, "ContributionID": 714447, "EditedText": "The homelessness task force is currently considering what steps are required to ensure that the homeless are housed by successor landlords to local authorities. I expect to receive those recommendations in the new year, in time for the inclusion of any legislative proposals in the forthcoming legislation.", "EditedTextHTML": "The homelessness task force is currently considering what steps are required to ensure that the homeless are housed by successor landlords to local authorities. I expect to receive those recommendations in the new year, in time for the inclusion of any legislative proposals in the forthcoming legislation.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C714449", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27242, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 478.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27243, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 479.0, "QuestionHeading": "Housing Partnership Initiative", "QuestionHeadingID": 27245, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 493.0, "DisplayOrder": 493.0, "ID": 27245, "ParentID": 27243 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 500.0, "ContributionID": 714449, "EditedText": "As I said, I expect proposals for legislation to be forthcoming from the homelessness task force on which both Shelter and the Scottish Council for Single Homeless are represented. One of the most interesting statistics is that the number of void and hard-to-let houses in Scotland exceeds the number of people who are assessed as being in priority need in Scotland. That shows that the key issue is to get new investment into housing.", "EditedTextHTML": "As I said, I expect proposals for legislation to be forthcoming from the homelessness task force on which both Shelter and the Scottish Council for Single Homeless are represented. One of the most interesting statistics is that the number of void and hard-to-let houses in Scotland exceeds the number of people who are assessed as being in priority need in Scotland. That shows that the key issue is to get new investment into housing.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1876E194P490C714451", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27242, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 478.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27243, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 479.0, "QuestionHeading": "Criminal Injuries Compensation Authority", "QuestionHeadingID": 27246, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 502.0, "DisplayOrder": 502.0, "ID": 27246, "ParentID": 27243 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Marwick, Tricia", "ID": 1876, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tricia Marwick", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tricia Marwick: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 505.0, "ContributionID": 714451, "EditedText": "I thank the minister for thatreply, which contrasts with the complacent and arrogant response from his colleague the Lord Advocate, on 18 November. Will he comment on the fact that some victims have been waiting nine years for a hearing? In the year to March 1999, only 6 per cent of cases were dealt with within a year. In contrast, during the final year of the previous Conservative Government, 63 per cent of cases were dealt with within a year. Does the minister therefore agree that new Labour's slogan should be \"Tough on crime—it's tough for the victims of crime\"?", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the minister for that

reply, which contrasts with the complacent and arrogant response from his colleague the Lord Advocate, on 18 November. Will he comment on the fact that some victims have been waiting nine years for a hearing? In the year to March 1999, only 6 per cent of cases were dealt with within a year. In contrast, during the final year of the previous Conservative Government, 63 per cent of cases were dealt with within a year. Does the minister therefore agree that new Labour's slogan should be \"Tough on crime—it's tough for the victims of crime\"?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2167E79P155C714458", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27242, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 478.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27243, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 479.0, "QuestionHeading": "Rural Schools", "QuestionHeadingID": 27248, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 516.0, "DisplayOrder": 516.0, "ID": 27248, "ParentID": 27243 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Peacock, Peter", "ID": 2167, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Peter Peacock", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Peter Peacock: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 521.0, "ContributionID": 714458, "EditedText": "Under some circumstances, final decisions on school closures can be referred to the Executive. Until we have seen all the paperwork supporting Moray Council's decision, it would not be appropriate to comment on a particular case. As a matter of general policy, there may be circumstances in which it is appropriate to close a rural school, but those circumstances are best judged in the first instance at local level.", "EditedTextHTML": "Under some circumstances, final decisions on school closures can be referred to the Executive. Until we have seen all the paperwork supporting Moray Council's decision, it would not be appropriate to comment on a particular case. As a matter of general policy, there may be circumstances in which it is appropriate to close a rural school, but those circumstances are best judged in the first instance at local level.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2207E94P262C714466", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27242, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 478.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27243, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 479.0, "QuestionHeading": "Child Welfare", "QuestionHeadingID": 27251, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 539.0, "DisplayOrder": 539.0, "ID": 27251, "ParentID": 27243 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Barrie, Scott", "ID": 2207, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dunfermline West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Scott Barrie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "8. Scott Barrie (Dunfermline West) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 540.0, "ContributionID": 714466, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive, further to the answer to question S1W-2202 by Mr Jim Wallace on 11 November 1999, what the time scale is of the UK interdepartmental working group examining the issue of parental chastisement of children and whether it proposes to conduct a separate consultation process in Scotland in order to take account of the different way in which Scotland's legal system deals with child welfare. (S1O-850) The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice (Mr Jim Wallace): Since my answer to the member's question on 11 November, the Scottish Executive has decided to issue a consultation paper covering the law in Scotland on this subject. We hope to issue it by February 2000.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive, further to the answer to question S1W-2202 by Mr Jim Wallace on 11 November 1999, what the time scale is of the UK interdepartmental working group examining the issue of parental chastisement of children and whether it proposes to conduct a separate consultation process in Scotland in order to take account of the different way in which Scotland's legal system deals with child welfare. (S1O-850) The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice (Mr Jim Wallace): Since my answer to the member's question on 11 November, the Scottish Executive has decided to issue a consultation paper covering the law in Scotland on this subject. We hope to issue it by February 2000.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C714470", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27242, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 478.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27243, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 479.0, "QuestionHeading": "Prisoners (Drug Misuse)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27252, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 546.0, "DisplayOrder": 546.0, "ID": 27252, "ParentID": 27243 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Simpson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 549.0, "ContributionID": 714470, "EditedText": "Does the minister accept the view that while there has been an overall reduction in positive drug test results in the Prison Service associated with the mandatory drug testing programme, this has been due for the most part to a switch in use from cannabis to heroin? Will he undertake to conduct an independent review of the mandatory drug testing programme in Scottish prisons and examine the restrictive effect that the use of funds on this mandatory expenditure has had on the development of testing in relation to voluntary drug-free zones in prisons?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the minister accept the view that while there has been an overall reduction in positive drug test results in the Prison Service associated with the mandatory drug testing programme, this has been due for the most part to a switch in use from cannabis to heroin? Will he undertake to conduct an independent review of the mandatory drug testing programme in Scottish prisons and examine the restrictive effect that the use of funds on this mandatory expenditure has had on the development of testing in relation to voluntary drug-free zones in prisons?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C714471", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27242, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 478.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27243, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 479.0, "QuestionHeading": "Prisoners (Drug Misuse)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27252, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 546.0, "DisplayOrder": 546.0, "ID": 27252, "ParentID": 27243 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Angus MacKay: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 551.0, "ContributionID": 714471, "EditedText": "The research currently available indicates that drug testing in prisons has not lead to a switch from cannabis to heroin. Testing on admission shows that hard drug use is common among those committed to custody. Nevertheless, I have asked the Prison Service to produce detailed proposals in relation to the possible expansion in the range and volume of rehabilitation services within Scottish prisons.", "EditedTextHTML": "The research currently available indicates that drug testing in prisons has not lead to a switch from cannabis to heroin. Testing on admission shows that hard drug use is common among those committed to custody. Nevertheless, I have asked the Prison Service to produce detailed proposals in relation to the possible expansion in the range and volume of rehabilitation services within Scottish prisons.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1906E278P355C714472", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27242, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 478.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27243, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 479.0, "QuestionHeading": "Pig Farming", "QuestionHeadingID": 27253, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 553.0, "DisplayOrder": 553.0, "ID": 27253, "ParentID": 27243 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Welsh, Andrew", "ID": 1906, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Angus" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Welsh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "10. Mr Andrew Welsh (Angus) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 554.0, "ContributionID": 714472, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what measures it is taking to offset any financial disadvantages which may be imposed on pig farmers due to new pig welfare legislation banning the stall and tether systems used in pig breeding which has yet to be imposed elsewhere in the European Union. (S1O-873) The Minister for Rural Affairs (Ross Finnie): As Mr Welsh may be aware, strict state aid rules and the common agricultural policy pigmeat regime prevent direct payments being made to producers. The Scottish Executive is trying as hard as it can to encourage retailers, caterers and consumers to recognise in their purchasing decisions the very high welfare and quality standards achieved by the Scottish pig industry.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what measures it is taking to offset any financial disadvantages which may be imposed on pig farmers due to new pig welfare legislation banning the stall and tether systems used in pig breeding which has yet to be imposed elsewhere in the European Union. (S1O-873) The Minister for Rural Affairs (Ross Finnie): As Mr Welsh may be aware, strict state aid rules and the common agricultural policy pigmeat regime prevent direct payments being made to producers.

The Scottish Executive is trying as hard as it can to encourage retailers, caterers and consumers to recognise in their purchasing decisions the very high welfare and quality standards achieved by the Scottish pig industry.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1906E278P355C714473", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27242, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 478.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27243, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 479.0, "QuestionHeading": "Pig Farming", "QuestionHeadingID": 27253, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 553.0, "DisplayOrder": 553.0, "ID": 27253, "ParentID": 27243 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Welsh, Andrew", "ID": 1906, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Angus" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Welsh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Welsh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 556.0, "ContributionID": 714473, "EditedText": "Why is the minister not acting on clear European Commission advice that compensation for the pig industry on welfare measures and the BSE tax would be allowed under European rules? Will he stop dithering and introduce that compensation? An industry facing its greatest ever crisis needs action, not dithering.", "EditedTextHTML": "Why is the minister not acting on clear European Commission advice that compensation for the pig industry on welfare measures and the BSE tax would be allowed under European rules? Will he stop dithering and introduce that compensation? An industry facing its greatest ever crisis needs action, not dithering.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C714474", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27242, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 478.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27243, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 479.0, "QuestionHeading": "Pig Farming", "QuestionHeadingID": 27253, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 553.0, "DisplayOrder": 553.0, "ID": 27253, "ParentID": 27243 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ross Finnie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 558.0, "ContributionID": 714474, "EditedText": "I do not know where Mr Welsh gets his clear advice from Europe. That is certainly not the advice that I have received. I had a meeting with the pig sector prior to question time. At that meeting, we have undertaken—because I understand that the industry has received conflicting views—to clarify that matter for them.", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not know where Mr Welsh gets his clear advice from Europe. That is certainly not the advice that I have received. I had a meeting with the pig sector prior to question time. At that meeting, we have undertaken—because I understand that the industry has received conflicting views—to clarify that matter for them.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1892E34P73C714478", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27242, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 478.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27243, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 479.0, "QuestionHeading": "Hunting with Dogs", "QuestionHeadingID": 27254, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 564.0, "DisplayOrder": 564.0, "ID": 27254, "ParentID": 27243 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Fergusson, Alex", "ID": 1892, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Fergusson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Fergusson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 567.0, "ContributionID": 714478, "EditedText": "Given the recent report of the Scottish Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, I can only describe the minister's answer as slightly unsatisfactory. Will the minister reassure me that the report being carried out by the Macaulay Land Use Research Institute will examine the animal welfare aspects of such a ban as well as the economic aspects? Will the minister tell me how that institute can possibly report fully by the end of December, as promised by the Executive, when the six footpacks in the north of Scotland have not yet even been contacted by MLURI?", "EditedTextHTML": "Given the recent report of the Scottish Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, I can only describe the minister's answer as slightly unsatisfactory.

Will the minister reassure me that the report being carried out by the Macaulay Land Use Research Institute will examine the animal welfare aspects of such a ban as well as the economic aspects? Will the minister tell me how that institute can possibly report fully by the end of December, as promised by the Executive, when the six footpacks in the north of Scotland have not yet even been contacted by MLURI?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1805E13P109C714480", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27242, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 478.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27243, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 479.0, "QuestionHeading": "Rural Transport Strategy", "QuestionHeadingID": 27255, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 571.0, "DisplayOrder": 571.0, "ID": 27255, "ParentID": 27243 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Whitefield, Karen", "ID": 1805, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Airdrie and Shotts" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Karen Whitefield", "SpeakerDisplayName": "12. Karen Whitefield (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 572.0, "ContributionID": 714480, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what action it has taken to support and develop a rural transport strategy. (S1O-864) The Minister for Transport and the Environment (Sarah Boyack): The Scottish Executive is addressing the distinctive transport needs of rural Scotland by investing over £43 million this financial year. That supports Caledonian MacBrayne Ltd and Highlands and Islands Airports Ltd, ferry services to the northern isles, public and community transport services and rural petrol stations.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what action it has taken to support and develop a rural transport strategy. (S1O-864) The Minister for Transport and the Environment (Sarah Boyack): The Scottish Executive is addressing the distinctive transport needs of rural Scotland by investing over £43 million this financial year. That supports Caledonian MacBrayne Ltd and Highlands and Islands Airports Ltd, ferry services to the northern isles, public and community transport services and rural petrol stations.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1805E13P109C714481", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27242, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 478.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27243, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 479.0, "QuestionHeading": "Rural Transport Strategy", "QuestionHeadingID": 27255, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 571.0, "DisplayOrder": 571.0, "ID": 27255, "ParentID": 27243 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Whitefield, Karen", "ID": 1805, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Airdrie and Shotts" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Karen Whitefield", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Karen Whitefield: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 574.0, "ContributionID": 714481, "EditedText": "I welcome the minister's response. Is she aware, however, of the terrible effect that the withdrawal of bus services is having on the people of Salsburgh? Does she agree that it is unacceptable that people are being forced to take taxis to get to work, to the doctor and to schools? Does the minister also agree that Strathclyde Passenger Transport should have consulted the people of Salsburgh before withdrawing those bus services? Does she support me in demanding the immediate reinstatement of those services?", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the minister's response. Is she aware, however, of the terrible effect that the withdrawal of bus services is having on the people of Salsburgh? Does she agree that it is unacceptable that people are being forced to take taxis to get to work, to the doctor and to schools? Does the minister also agree that Strathclyde Passenger Transport should have consulted the people of Salsburgh before withdrawing those bus services? Does she support me in demanding the immediate reinstatement of those services?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C714487", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27242, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 478.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27243, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 479.0, "QuestionHeading": "Local Authority Leisure Facilities", "QuestionHeadingID": 27257, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 587.0, "DisplayOrder": 587.0, "ID": 27257, "ParentID": 27243 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "14. Michael Russell (South of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 588.0, "ContributionID": 714487, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what safeguards for ownership of public assets will be put in place when local authorities wish to transfer ownership of leisure facilities to arm's-length trusts. (S1O-882) I think the croakiness of my voice indicates that I need some nicotine replacement therapy now. Thank you, Presiding Officer. I look forward to my free treatment.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what safeguards for ownership of public assets will be put in place when local authorities wish to transfer ownership of leisure facilities to arm's-length trusts. (S1O-882) I think the croakiness of my voice indicates that I need some nicotine replacement therapy now. Thank you, Presiding Officer. I look forward to my free treatment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1996E124P211C714490", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27242, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 478.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27243, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 479.0, "QuestionHeading": "Local Authority Leisure Facilities", "QuestionHeadingID": 27257, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 587.0, "DisplayOrder": 587.0, "ID": 27257, "ParentID": 27243 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAveety, Mr Frank", "ID": 1996, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Shettleston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Local Government", "SpeakerName": "Frank McAveety", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McAveety: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 594.0, "ContributionID": 714490, "EditedText": "A number of authorities in Scotland have been considering the establishment of leisure trusts, in recognition of the opportunities that such trusts facilitate to engage in savings and protection of the existing core service. All the local authorities in Scotland that have explored the idea of a trust have sought it on the basis of protecting, and perhaps enhancing, the existing service, and want to work in partnership with the local community. I remind Mr Russell that one of the pioneering authorities that explored that option with me, as Deputy Minister for Local Government, was— funnily enough—SNP-led Clackmannanshire Council, which recognised the opportunity provided by such establishments throughout Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "A number of authorities in Scotland have been considering the establishment of leisure trusts, in recognition of the opportunities that such trusts facilitate to engage in savings and protection of the existing core service. All the local authorities in Scotland that have explored the idea of a trust have sought it on the basis of protecting, and perhaps enhancing, the existing service, and want to work in partnership with the local community.

I remind Mr Russell that one of the pioneering authorities that explored that option with me, as Deputy Minister for Local Government, was— funnily enough—SNP-led Clackmannanshire Council, which recognised the opportunity

provided by such establishments throughout Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1828E200P487C714496", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27242, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 478.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27243, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 479.0, "QuestionHeading": "Holyrood Project", "QuestionHeadingID": 27259, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 603.0, "DisplayOrder": 603.0, "ID": 27259, "ParentID": 27243 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacDonald, Margo", "ID": 1828, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margo MacDonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms MacDonald: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 608.0, "ContributionID": 714496, "EditedText": "I know that the Minister for Finance cannot agree that he made a mistake in the first place in proceeding with the site, but I will ask him, in the spirit of the season, to make my Christmas happier by promising that Señor Miralles, the builders and the developers will not demolish Queensberry House simply because he has not managed to get enough money out of the Treasury.", "EditedTextHTML": "I know that the Minister for Finance cannot agree that he made a mistake in the first place in proceeding with the site, but I will ask him, in the spirit of the season, to make my Christmas happier by promising that Señor Miralles, the builders and the developers will not demolish Queensberry House simply because he has not managed to get enough money out of the

Treasury.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1781E188P474C714504", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27242, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 478.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27243, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 479.0, "QuestionHeading": "Child Care Strategy", "QuestionHeadingID": 27261, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 621.0, "DisplayOrder": 621.0, "ID": 27261, "ParentID": 27243 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McGugan, Irene", "ID": 1781, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Irene McGugan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Irene McGugan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 626.0, "ContributionID": 714504, "EditedText": "I thank the minister for that response, although I am not sure that it entirely answers the question. Is the minister aware of the disruption to local authorities and child care partnerships across Scotland, which intended to launch their local helplines on 15 November to coincide with the original date for the launch of the national one? Does the Scottish Executive intend to publish a separate document to make it clear to the people of Scotland in what areas and to what extent it has failed to meet its target and is not delivering services as promised?", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the minister for that response, although I am not sure that it entirely answers the question.

Is the minister aware of the disruption to local authorities and child care partnerships across Scotland, which intended to launch their local helplines on 15 November to coincide with the original date for the launch of the national one? Does the Scottish Executive intend to publish a separate document to make it clear to the people of Scotland in what areas and to what extent it has failed to meet its target and is not delivering services as promised?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C714517", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27262, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 630.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27263, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 631.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27264, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 632.0, "DisplayOrder": 632.0, "ID": 27264, "ParentID": 27263 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 655.0, "ContributionID": 714517, "EditedText": "I am glad to say that the jury to which I am accountable is not David McLetchie. That is as selective a litany as I have heard. Our record is a good one. There is good will for the Parliament, and the good work that we do here—I am happy to include all the elected members in that—will be recognised when the time comes. I am quite looking forward to the next election—I do not know whether David McLetchie is.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am glad to say that the jury to which I am accountable is not David McLetchie. That is as selective a litany as I have heard. Our record is a good one. There is good will for the Parliament, and the good work that we do here—I am happy to include all the elected members in that—will be recognised when the time comes. I am quite looking forward to the next election—I do not know whether David McLetchie is.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C714523", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27262, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 630.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27263, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 631.0, "QuestionHeading": "Dyslexia", "QuestionHeadingID": 27265, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 665.0, "DisplayOrder": 665.0, "ID": 27265, "ParentID": 27263 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Goldie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 668.0, "ContributionID": 714523, "EditedText": "I am obliged to the minister. Given that there is no standard screening programme in Scottish schools to identify children suffering from dyslexia, and that dyslexia has no respect for age, sex or background, does Mr Galbraith agree that to consider such an initiative would be an encouraging demonstration of the Executive's social inclusion policy? In particular, will the Executive consider entering into dialogue with the Dyslexia Institute of Scotland?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am obliged to the minister. Given that there is no standard screening programme in Scottish schools to identify children suffering from dyslexia, and that dyslexia has no respect for age, sex or background, does Mr Galbraith agree that to consider such an initiative would be an encouraging demonstration of the Executive's social inclusion policy? In particular, will the Executive consider entering into dialogue with the Dyslexia Institute of Scotland?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C714525", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27262, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 630.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27263, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 631.0, "QuestionHeading": "Dyslexia", "QuestionHeadingID": 27265, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 665.0, "DisplayOrder": 665.0, "ID": 27265, "ParentID": 27263 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Goldie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 672.0, "ContributionID": 714525, "EditedText": "I thank the minister for expanding on that point, but does he agree that the absence of a standard programme is an alarming omission? There are clear disparities between different communities in Scotland. Is not that a matter for some concern, which the Executive could usefully address?", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the minister for expanding on that point, but does he agree that the absence of a standard programme is an alarming omission? There are clear disparities between different communities in Scotland. Is not that a matter for some concern, which the Executive could usefully address?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C714526", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27262, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 630.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27263, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 631.0, "QuestionHeading": "Dyslexia", "QuestionHeadingID": 27265, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 665.0, "DisplayOrder": 665.0, "ID": 27265, "ParentID": 27263 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Galbraith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 674.0, "ContributionID": 714526, "EditedText": "Yes. One of the reasons why we set up the special educational needs advisory forum was to highlight such problems before they develop to the stage where they present significant difficulties. Standard guidance was established several years ago and there is specific guidance on children with dyslexia. The framework is in place, but we are not complacent about it. We set up the special educational needs advisory forum to keep us informed. We have put money into additional training on dyslexia and into special educational needs in general. I hope that the member will be assured that that package goes some way towards rectifying the problem that she rightly identified.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes. One of the reasons why we set up the special educational needs advisory forum was to highlight such problems before they develop to the stage where they present significant difficulties. Standard guidance was established several years ago and there is specific guidance on children with dyslexia. The framework is in place, but we are not complacent about it. We set up the special educational needs advisory forum to keep us informed. We have put money into additional training on dyslexia and into special educational needs in general. I hope that the member will be assured that that package goes some way towards rectifying the problem that she rightly identified.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C714530", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27262, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 630.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27263, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 631.0, "QuestionHeading": "Dyslexia", "QuestionHeadingID": 27265, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 665.0, "DisplayOrder": 665.0, "ID": 27265, "ParentID": 27263 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Galbraith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 682.0, "ContributionID": 714530, "EditedText": "As the member knows, dyspraxia is related to fine movements—there is disjunction of fine movements, particularly in the hands, but also in facial and oral muscles. We are putting money into dealing with dyslexia, dyspraxia and all areas of special educational needs that must be addressed.", "EditedTextHTML": "As the member knows, dyspraxia is related to fine movements—there is disjunction of fine movements, particularly in the hands, but also in facial and oral muscles. We are putting money into dealing with dyslexia, dyspraxia and all areas of special educational needs that must be addressed.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C714534", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27262, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 630.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27263, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 631.0, "QuestionHeading": "Dyslexia", "QuestionHeadingID": 27265, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 665.0, "DisplayOrder": 665.0, "ID": 27265, "ParentID": 27263 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 690.0, "ContributionID": 714534, "EditedText": "Technically, that probably was not a point of order, but it was a point of importance. The Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body discussed that matter in detail some time ago, and we decided that the safest period to shut down the system was from 30 December to 5 January, to ensure that millennium bug issues were sorted out before the network went live again in the new year. There will be public holidays on 3 and 4 January; while I admire Roseanna Cunningham's assiduity, I cannot believe that she will need the system on 31 December or 1 January.", "EditedTextHTML": "Technically, that probably was not a point of order, but it was a point of importance. The Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body discussed that matter in detail some time ago, and we decided that the safest period to shut down the system was from 30 December to 5 January, to ensure that millennium bug issues were sorted out before the network went live again in the new year. There will be public holidays on 3 and 4 January; while I admire Roseanna Cunningham's assiduity, I cannot believe that she will need the system on 31 December or 1 January.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C714536", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27262, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 630.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27263, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 631.0, "QuestionHeading": "Dyslexia", "QuestionHeadingID": 27265, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 665.0, "DisplayOrder": 665.0, "ID": 27265, "ParentID": 27263 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 694.0, "ContributionID": 714536, "EditedText": "It is not a point of order, but let us hear it anyway.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is not a point of order, but let us hear it anyway.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C714538", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27262, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 630.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27263, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 631.0, "QuestionHeading": "Dyslexia", "QuestionHeadingID": 27265, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 665.0, "DisplayOrder": 665.0, "ID": 27265, "ParentID": 27263 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 698.0, "ContributionID": 714538, "EditedText": "You must remember that the corporate body is a collection of lay men and women, just as we all are. We considered the issue and took professional advice; the e-mail gives the view that we arrived at. We can, perhaps, argue outside the chamber about your point, but let us start the health debate now.", "EditedTextHTML": "You must remember that the corporate body is a collection of lay men and women, just as we all are. We considered the issue and took professional advice; the e-mail gives the view that we arrived at. We can, perhaps, argue outside the chamber about your point, but let us start the health debate now.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C714542", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 708.0, "ContributionID": 714542, "EditedText": "I will take an intervention later; I want to move a little further into my speech. We are often asked about how we will address such challenges. For example, we are asked whether we are putting more money into the NHS. The answer is yes. There have been record levels of investment—£1.8 billion over this and the next two years, which is real money, not false promises.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will take an intervention later; I want to move a little further into my speech.

We are often asked about how we will address such challenges. For example, we are asked whether we are putting more money into the NHS. The answer is yes. There have been record levels of investment—£1.8 billion over this and the next two years, which is real money, not false promises.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C714543", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr David Davidson (North-East Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 710.0, "ContributionID": 714543, "EditedText": "Is the minister aware that, in the past few days, there has been much publicity about the inability of health boards and trusts to fund their activities without getting into debt and not having the funds for next year? The minister talks about capital investment, but what about the revenue requirements?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is the minister aware that, in the past few days, there has been much publicity about the inability of health boards and trusts to fund their activities without getting into debt and not having the funds for next year? The minister talks about capital investment, but what about the revenue requirements?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C714544", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 712.0, "ContributionID": 714544, "EditedText": "Let me repeat my previous point. We are putting record levels of investment into the NHS in Scotland; we are not squandering resources on a divisive and bureaucratic internal market, which is what the Tories did before us. I am asked whether there are pressures and demands on the system. Of course there are— there always have been and there always will be. However, those are situations to be managed, not crises to be manufactured. Although there are always issues and incidents in the NHS that have to be dealt with, it is important that we work constructively to deal with them positively and practically.", "EditedTextHTML": "Let me repeat my previous point. We are putting record levels of investment into the NHS in Scotland; we are not squandering resources on a divisive and bureaucratic internal market, which is what the Tories did before us.

I am asked whether there are pressures and demands on the system. Of course there are— there always have been and there always will be. However, those are situations to be managed, not crises to be manufactured. Although there are always issues and incidents in the NHS that have to be dealt with, it is important that we work constructively to deal with them positively and practically.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1926E190P479C714545", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Adam, Brian", "ID": 1926, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Adam", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Brian Adam (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 714.0, "ContributionID": 714545, "EditedText": "We are not talking about isolated incidents. Almost every acute hospital trust in Scotland has a significant cash crisis that is leading to bed closures and bed-blocking. How does the minister propose to deal with that crisis?", "EditedTextHTML": "We are not talking about isolated incidents. Almost every acute hospital trust in Scotland has a significant cash crisis that is leading to bed closures and bed-blocking. How does the minister propose to deal with that crisis?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C714550", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 724.0, "ContributionID": 714550, "EditedText": "I do not mind if Duncan Hamilton or any other member of his party criticises me every day from now until kingdom come; what I find offensive is that he refuses to engage in the real issues, which people in the NHS must face up to every day. I find it offensive that staff morale and public confidence are undermined by the hyperbole and excesses engaged in by politicians.", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not mind if Duncan Hamilton or any other member of his party criticises me every day from now until kingdom come; what I find offensive is that he refuses to engage in the real issues, which people in the NHS must face up to every day. I find it offensive that staff morale and public confidence are undermined by the hyperbole and excesses engaged in by politicians.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C714564", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 752.0, "ContributionID": 714564, "EditedText": "That was a substantial overrun, which I allowed because the minister was so open in taking interventions. It means, however, that one speaker will drop out. I now call Kay Ullrich to speak to and move amendment S1M-383.1.", "EditedTextHTML": "That was a substantial overrun, which I allowed because the minister was so open in taking interventions. It means, however, that one speaker will drop out.

I now call Kay Ullrich to speak to and move amendment S1M-383.1.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1811E172P455C714565", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ullrich, Kay", "ID": 1811, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kay Ullrich", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Kay Ullrich (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 755.0, "ContributionID": 714565, "EditedText": "I am disappointed that the Minister for Health and Community Care did not see fit to use the time today to address the real problems that currently face the NHS in Scotland. Instead, we have been subjected to the most anodyne of motions, full of self-congratulation. In the light of the serious issues that surround the health service today, it is a motion that lacks humility. I know that it fits in well with new Labour's style in this Parliament, but I cannot help but wonder whether those in the ministerial health team ever talk to the health professionals, ever listen to the concerns of patients or ever read the daily newspapers. If they did, even new Labour would not have had the brass neck to present the motion. The minister once again favours reality in favour of rhetoric.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am disappointed that the Minister for Health and Community Care did not see fit to use the time today to address the real problems that currently face the NHS in Scotland. Instead, we have been subjected to the most anodyne of motions, full of self-congratulation. In the light of the serious issues that surround the health service today, it is a motion that lacks humility. I know that it fits in well with new Labour's style in this Parliament, but I cannot help but wonder whether those in the ministerial health team ever talk to the health professionals, ever listen to the concerns of patients or ever read the daily newspapers. If they did, even new Labour would not have had the brass neck to present the motion.

The minister once again favours reality in favour of rhetoric.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1823E145P193C714581", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jamieson, Margaret", "ID": 1823, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Kilmarnock and Loudoun" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Jamieson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Margaret Jamieson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 788.0, "ContributionID": 714581, "EditedText": "Is Mary Scanlon suggesting that we go back to the dark and distant Tory days when decisions were made behind closed doors and no one was told about them? Is she suggesting that rather than the openness and accountability that the Labour party is proposing?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is Mary Scanlon suggesting that we go back to the dark and distant Tory days when decisions were made behind

closed doors and no one was told about them? Is she suggesting that rather than the openness and accountability that the Labour party is proposing?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C714577", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 780.0, "ContributionID": 714577, "EditedText": "I fully support the Executive's commitment to the NHS and the contribution and commitment of the staff. NHS Direct moves towards seamless transfer and guaranteed waiting times. When I read the motion, I read the words \"partnership\", \"public accountability\" and \"involvement\". Is that the type of partnership that is exemplified by the Minister for Health and Community Care, who reportedly called members of the Health and Community Care Committee numpties for daring to express an objective and impartial cross-party opinion on the Arbuthnott report? Is it the type of partnership whereby the Minister for Health and Community Care gives the Health and Community Care Committee a party political broadcast, followed by a refusal to answer questions that have been raised by the British Medical Association and many others who submitted evidence in the Arbuthnott review? Perhaps it is the partnership with the Minister for Health and Community Care who had death threats made against her after the Catholic Church in Scotland dared to express a point of view. The rest of that tale will go down in history. Is that the partnership the minister is talking about? She is a woman who would cause a rammie in an empty house. What about consultation? Labour does not even consult its Liberal partners, as has been admitted in the chamber, so what chance is there for people in the rest of Scotland? We should ask the people of Angus and the Mearns about consultation and partnership. More than 25,000 of them have put their signatures on a health petition because they do not know what is happening to the health service in their area. All they know is what they have read in the columns of the local paper. Consultation and partnership in Perth means packed public meetings because of a fear of losing accident and emergency, maternity and paediatric care—no consultation, only serious, heart-felt concern among local people that they are being ignored and their health care is being eroded. In Fife, it means more than 1,200 people trying to get into a hall that holds fewer than 200 to express their worries and concerns and to find out what is happening to their health service and which hospital is likely to close.", "EditedTextHTML": "I fully support the Executive's commitment to the NHS and the contribution and commitment of the staff. NHS Direct moves towards seamless transfer and guaranteed waiting times.

When I read the motion, I read the words \"partnership\", \"public accountability\" and \"involvement\". Is that the type of partnership that is exemplified by the Minister for Health and Community Care, who reportedly called members of the Health and Community Care Committee numpties for daring to express an objective and impartial cross-party opinion on the Arbuthnott report? Is it the type of partnership whereby the Minister for Health and Community Care gives the Health and Community Care Committee a party political broadcast, followed by a refusal to answer questions that have been raised by the British Medical Association and many others who submitted evidence in the Arbuthnott review? Perhaps it is the partnership with the Minister for Health and Community Care who had death threats made against her after the Catholic Church in Scotland dared to express a point of view. The rest of that tale will go down in history. Is that the partnership the minister is talking about? She is a woman who would cause a rammie in an empty house.

What about consultation? Labour does not even consult its Liberal partners, as has been admitted in the chamber, so what chance is there for people in the rest of Scotland? We should ask the people of Angus and the Mearns about consultation and partnership. More than 25,000 of them have put their signatures on a health petition because they do not know what is happening to the health service in their area. All they know is what they have read in the columns of the local paper.

Consultation and partnership in Perth means packed public meetings because of a fear of losing accident and emergency, maternity and paediatric care—no consultation, only serious, heart-felt concern among local people that they are being ignored and their health care is being eroded. In Fife, it means more than 1,200 people trying to get into a hall that holds fewer than 200 to express their worries and concerns and to find out what is happening to their health service and which hospital is likely to close.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C714584", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 794.0, "ContributionID": 714584, "EditedText": "I never heard of people in Scotland expressing their concern during the Tory years as they are now. The new hospital programme consists of eight hospitals, half of which had already been progressed by Michael Forsyth and Ian Lang—as the leader of the Scottish National party has already said. That brings me on to overspend, or underfunding—two ways of looking at the same thing. The majority of acute hospital trusts in Scotland are facing severe cuts just to make ends meet. In Tayside, there is a deficit of more than £12 million and there have been suggestions that patients should pay for non-essential treatment. I would like to know what the Minister for Health and Community Care considers non-essential treatment. The Grampian trusts have an overspend of £5.6 million, which has led to ward closures and weekend closures. They cannot fill vacant posts and are reducing training. Is that a health service of which the minister is proud?", "EditedTextHTML": "I never heard of people in Scotland expressing their concern during the Tory years as they are now.

The new hospital programme consists of eight hospitals, half of which had already been progressed by Michael Forsyth and Ian Lang—as the leader of the Scottish National party has already said.

That brings me on to overspend, or underfunding—two ways of looking at the same thing. The majority of acute hospital trusts in Scotland are facing severe cuts just to make ends meet. In Tayside, there is a deficit of more than £12 million and there have been suggestions that patients should pay for non-essential treatment. I would like to know what the Minister for Health and Community Care considers non-essential treatment. The Grampian trusts have an overspend of £5.6 million, which has led to ward closures and weekend closures. They cannot fill vacant posts and are reducing training. Is that a health service of which the minister is proud?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C714590", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 806.0, "ContributionID": 714590, "EditedText": "Across Scotland, hospitals are facing the serious problems that I have mentioned. No problems have surpassed those of the Lennox Castle hospital for the care of the elderly, which is undertaking desperate measures. It is asking staff to take patients home—as a newspaper headline said, \"to ‘adopt' a patient\". According to Unison, a similar system has been tried, but failed, in Liverpool, yet it will now be implemented in Scotland. The most vulnerable people in society are being touted around for a good home, which will be paid for by welfare benefits. In the week before Christmas, at the end of this century, is the minister proud of health care in Scotland under which long-term mentally ill patients will be placed in families who may have no experience of caring?", "EditedTextHTML": "Across Scotland, hospitals are facing the serious problems that I have mentioned. No problems have surpassed those of the Lennox Castle hospital for the care of the elderly, which is undertaking desperate measures. It is asking staff to take patients home—as a newspaper headline said, \"to ‘adopt' a patient\". According to Unison, a similar system has been tried, but failed, in Liverpool, yet it will now be implemented in Scotland. The most vulnerable people in society are being touted around for a good home, which will be paid for by welfare benefits. In the week before Christmas, at the end of this century, is the minister proud of health care in Scotland under which long-term mentally ill patients will be placed in families who may have no experience of caring?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1811E172P455C714598", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ullrich, Kay", "ID": 1811, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kay Ullrich", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Kay Ullrich: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 823.0, "ContributionID": 714598, "EditedText": "Will Mr Brown give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr Brown give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C714601", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Patricia Ferguson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 829.0, "ContributionID": 714601, "EditedText": "If the member does not want to give way, Mrs Ullrich, he does not have to do so. Carry on please, Mr Brown.", "EditedTextHTML": "If the member does not want to give way, Mrs Ullrich, he does not have to do so. Carry on please, Mr Brown.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2185E120P328C714606", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Brown, Robert", "ID": 2185, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robert Brown", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robert Brown: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 839.0, "ContributionID": 714606, "EditedText": "I will not give way. It is manifestly clear that health investment in Scotland has traditionally been higher than in England, even allowing for the prioritisation of health resources in favour of more deprived areas, which is made possible by our membership of the United Kingdom.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will not give way. It is manifestly clear that health investment in Scotland has traditionally been higher than in England, even allowing for the prioritisation of health resources in favour of more deprived areas, which is made possible by our membership of the United Kingdom.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1811E172P455C714607", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ullrich, Kay", "ID": 1811, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kay Ullrich", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Kay Ullrich: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 841.0, "ContributionID": 714607, "EditedText": "Will Mr Brown give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr Brown give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1828E200P487C714609", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacDonald, Margo", "ID": 1828, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margo MacDonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms MacDonald: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 845.0, "ContributionID": 714609, "EditedText": "Just look who is standing behind you Laughter. Many of us are genuinely concerned about this issue. We look to Robert Brown to define the debate, but he is not doing it. He should pick one point and flog it, rather than flog the SNP, because we are not the Administration.", "EditedTextHTML": "Just look who is standing behind you [Laughter.]

Many of us are genuinely concerned about this issue. We look to Robert Brown to define the debate, but he is not doing it. He should pick one point and flog it, rather than flog the SNP, because we are not the Administration.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C714617", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Simpson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 862.0, "ContributionID": 714617, "EditedText": "Not at the moment.The SNP amendment seeks to delete the parts of the motion on public accountability, involvement and partnership. Does that mean that the SNP does not believe in them? If it does, why delete those parts of the motion? What is the SNP replacing those elements with? A better vision for health? No. A radical new policy? No. A hint of new thinking? No. It replaces that part of the motion with a long whinge about the difficult issues that are being tackled by the Executive. If members think that we have got problems, think for a minute about the problems in the rest of the United Kingdom, because we get £250 per head more for every man, woman and child in Scotland than the average in the United Kingdom.", "EditedTextHTML": "Not at the moment.

The SNP amendment seeks to delete the parts of the motion on public accountability, involvement and partnership. Does that mean that the SNP does not believe in them? If it does, why delete those parts of the motion? What is the SNP replacing those elements with? A better vision for health? No. A radical new policy? No. A hint of new thinking? No. It replaces that part of the motion with a long whinge about the difficult issues that are being tackled by the Executive.

If members think that we have got problems, think for a minute about the problems in the rest of the United Kingdom, because we get £250 per head more for every man, woman and child in Scotland than the average in the United Kingdom.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1985E207P501C714620", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hamilton, Mr Duncan", "ID": 1985, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Hamilton: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 868.0, "ContributionID": 714620, "EditedText": "Dr Simpson is right, but on the question that Andrew Wilson asked yesterday, which nobody answered, will Dr Simpson tell us that he believes that Scotland gets an overgenerous share of UK health spending? Does he think that Scotland does better than it needs to do?", "EditedTextHTML": "Dr Simpson is right, but on the question that Andrew Wilson asked yesterday, which nobody answered, will Dr Simpson tell us that he believes that Scotland gets an overgenerous share of UK health spending? Does he think that Scotland does better than it needs to do?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1985E207P501C714622", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hamilton, Mr Duncan", "ID": 1985, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Hamilton: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 872.0, "ContributionID": 714622, "EditedText": "If that is true, how can Dr Simpson justify next year's spending, which is a 0.8 per cent increase for Scotland as opposed to a 4.4 per cent increase for England? Dr Simpson: I do not accept Mr Hamilton's figures.", "EditedTextHTML": "If that is true, how can Dr Simpson justify next year's spending, which is a

0.8 per cent increase for Scotland as opposed to a 4.4 per cent increase for England? Dr Simpson: I do not accept Mr Hamilton's figures.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1863E284P532C714625", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Cunningham, Roseanna", "ID": 1863, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Perth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Roseanna Cunningham", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Roseanna Cunningham: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 878.0, "ContributionID": 714625, "EditedText": "The member did not point out to the chamber that whatever my intervention might have been, it was agreed with by the vast majority of the 1,200 people at that meeting.", "EditedTextHTML": "The member did not point out to the chamber that whatever my intervention might have been, it was agreed with by the vast majority of the 1,200 people at that meeting.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C714628", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Simpson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 884.0, "ContributionID": 714628, "EditedText": "As I have taken some interventions, can I make some final points?", "EditedTextHTML": "As I have taken some interventions, can I make some final points?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C714630", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Simpson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 888.0, "ContributionID": 714630, "EditedText": "I have a vision of patients in partnership with professionals, in a service delivered for the most part as close to their home or community as possible. We should consider models of care such as that developed in Nairn. We should develop care that makes rare the need to go to the acute centre; care with first-class transport, where it is needed, to link patients speedily to those centres when it is needed. Patients should spend in those centres the minimum of time that is required for good, safe care. Patients should receive care before and after in the local community hospital or local resource centre or, as has been published in the British Medical Journal this week, their hospital at home.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have a vision of patients in partnership with professionals, in a service delivered for the most part as close to their home or community as possible. We should consider models of care such as that developed in Nairn. We should develop care that makes rare the need to go to the acute centre; care with first-class transport, where it is needed, to link patients speedily to those centres when it is needed. Patients should spend in those centres the minimum of time that is required for good, safe care.

Patients should receive care before and after in the local community hospital or local resource centre or, as has been published in the British Medical Journal this week, their hospital at home.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C714634", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Monteith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 897.0, "ContributionID": 714634, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1752E75P296C714636", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jamieson, Cathy", "ID": 1752, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Cathy Jamieson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Cathy Jamieson (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 902.0, "ContributionID": 714636, "EditedText": "The words \"humble pie\" have been used. The word \"humility\" was also mentioned earlier. At this time, we should show a bit of humility, because there is a real danger that the people at the centre of this debate—the patients with their experience in the health service—are being lost. That is what I want to focus on. I do that in the knowledge that some young people are here today from the organisation for which I used to work—Who Cares? Scotland. Those people taught me that the consumer of services must always be put at the centre. I take this opportunity to support Susan Deacon's comments applauding NHS staff. It is not too dramatic to say that most people in the chamber and outside will have friends or family who are alive today only because of the dedication and hard work of the NHS staff. Despite my well-known reservations about the private finance initiative, which have caused me differences of opinion with some of my colleagues, I want to say that my constituents welcome the fact that a new community hospital is being built in Cumnock. I welcome the fact that there have been constructive discussions—I have had some with the trade unions. Instead of going into rant mode, we should talk to the trade unions and the other people involved. I am glad that we are making progress in protecting staff conditions, as I hope the minister will confirm. Having visited the hospital site last week, I am delighted to see that the new building will replace precisely the sort of inappropriate buildings that members have rightly condemned. We will have a living and working environment that is fit for the 21st century. I welcome the minister's commitment constructively to address the needs of 21st century health care. I want to make a few points about the innovative work that is being done at the Ayr hospital as part of the designed health care problem. The project gives a message about how designed health care can be taken forward. It started off from the point of view of the patient and looked at the patient's journey from the initial referral through to final treatment. I have spoken to patients and to the people who deliver the service to find out what they thought about it. Susan Deacon is right: the number of visits that patients have to make has been reduced, as have the waiting times. Previously, the process took between 10 and 12 months and involved seven visits, including some repeat visits to the outpatients department. The new project has reduced the journey time to around two months and the number of visits from seven to three. That must be progress. Patients now go directly to the optometrist, who refers them to the hospital. The patient attends the hospital for treatment and the follow-up is carried out by the optometrist. The reduction in waiting time for surgery has been from six months to around six weeks and the reduction in the number of out-patient visits has been from three to zero, which is especially significant in a rural area, given the difficulties with transport. The number of people who have been dealt with in the day clinics has been increased from eight to 15 per day, which potentially frees up 1,000 new and 600 repeat out-patient slots. Those figures are from Ayrshire and Arran Community Health Care NHS Trust, which says that this approach is the way forward. A current audit of the project shows that the benefits include a reduction in the number of inappropriate referrals, a reduction in the number of people who do not turn up for appointments, a reduction in bureaucracy, less paperwork, fewer letters to and from general practitioners and fewer patient visits to GPs. The patients surveyed report a high level of satisfaction. What is crucial is that the project did not start out as a cost-cutting exercise or as an exercise in cutting waiting lists. It started out as an attempt to find out what the patients who needed a service wanted and how that could best be delivered—it is being delivered in Ayrshire. I hope that the minister will visit the project and talk to the people of Ayrshire about what will be rolled out in future. That is the way forward; it represents the kind of constructive debate that this Parliament should be having instead of once again making patient care a political football.", "EditedTextHTML": "The words \"humble pie\" have been used. The word \"humility\" was also mentioned earlier. At this time, we should show a bit of humility, because there is a real danger that the people at the centre of this debate—the patients with their experience in the health service—are being lost. That is what I want to focus on. I do that in the knowledge that some young people are here today from the organisation for which I used to work—Who Cares? Scotland. Those people taught me that the consumer of services must always be put at the centre.

I take this opportunity to support Susan Deacon's comments applauding NHS staff. It is not too dramatic to say that most people in the chamber and outside will have friends or family who are alive today only because of the dedication and hard work of the NHS staff.

Despite my well-known reservations about the private finance initiative, which have caused me differences of opinion with some of my colleagues, I want to say that my constituents welcome the fact that a new community hospital is being built in Cumnock. I welcome the fact that there have been constructive discussions—I have had some with the trade unions. Instead of going into rant mode, we should talk to the trade unions and the other people involved. I am glad that we are making progress in protecting staff conditions, as I hope the minister will confirm.

Having visited the hospital site last week, I am delighted to see that the new building will replace precisely the sort of inappropriate buildings that members have rightly condemned. We will have a living and working environment that is fit for the

21st century. I welcome the minister's commitment constructively to address the needs of 21st century health care.

I want to make a few points about the innovative work that is being done at the Ayr hospital as part of the designed health care problem. The project gives a message about how designed health care can be taken forward. It started off from the point of view of the patient and looked at the patient's journey from the initial referral through to final treatment. I have spoken to patients and to the people who deliver the service to find out what they thought about it.

Susan Deacon is right: the number of visits that patients have to make has been reduced, as have the waiting times. Previously, the process took between 10 and 12 months and involved seven visits, including some repeat visits to the outpatients department. The new project has reduced the journey time to around two months and the number of visits from seven to three. That must be progress.

Patients now go directly to the optometrist, who refers them to the hospital. The patient attends the hospital for treatment and the follow-up is carried out by the optometrist. The reduction in waiting time for surgery has been from six months to around six weeks and the reduction in the number of out-patient visits has been from three to zero, which is especially significant in a rural area, given the difficulties with transport.

The number of people who have been dealt with in the day clinics has been increased from eight to 15 per day, which potentially frees up 1,000 new and 600 repeat out-patient slots. Those figures are from Ayrshire and Arran Community Health Care NHS Trust, which says that this approach is the way forward.

A current audit of the project shows that the benefits include a reduction in the number of inappropriate referrals, a reduction in the number of people who do not turn up for appointments, a reduction in bureaucracy, less paperwork, fewer letters to and from general practitioners and fewer patient visits to GPs.

The patients surveyed report a high level of satisfaction. What is crucial is that the project did not start out as a cost-cutting exercise or as an exercise in cutting waiting lists. It started out as an attempt to find out what the patients who needed a service wanted and how that could best be delivered—it is being delivered in Ayrshire. I hope that the minister will visit the project and talk to the people of Ayrshire about what will be rolled out in future. That is the way forward; it represents the kind of constructive debate that this Parliament should be having instead of once again making patient care a political football.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2234E7P20C714639", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Aitken, Bill", "ID": 2234, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bill Aitken", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bill Aitken: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 909.0, "ContributionID": 714639, "EditedText": "That is a period during which record numbers of patients were treated by the national health service and unprecedented investment was made. I hear no acknowledgement of those facts. In her introduction, the minister paid tribute to the national health service and its personnel. Given her political background, I can understand that she has a deep emotional attachment to the principles of the national health service. I doubt whether anyone in this chamber today does not fully support those principles. I feel that there has been a conspiracy of silence about the state of the NHS for far too long. We see in press reports every day that the NHS is not fulfilling the role that the minister and all of us in the chamber think that it should. The level of patient care is not what we would wish. Until that point is appreciated, any debate will be sterile and negative. When the point is faced up to, we can be more constructive. We have longer waiting times than we used to. I accept the minister's point regarding the question of waiting lists, but the length of time that a patient has to wait for important treatment is a real problem. The minister should address that. Staff morale in the NHS is undoubtedly extremely low. Every year, substantial numbers of staff vote with their feet. We have fewer nurses than we had the last time Labour was in power. I see that the minister, being unable to deal with the rationale of my argument, has left the chamber. Robert Brown dealt with the input of the Liberals into the Executive's health proposals. Having read the Liberal party manifesto, I have to say that Robert's party sold itself cheaply. It has not fulfilled one iota of what it promised before the election. Labour promised to spend, spend, spend on the NHS. The mantra of education, education, education was replaced late in the 1997 general election campaign with promises that the NHS would have capital and revenue investment as never before. That has not happened. There has simply been a continuation of the trend that the Conservative Government introduced in its last three years in office. I accept that there has been a marginal increase in spending, but it is in aggregated expenditure, not real expenditure. Perhaps the minister will address that in his summing-up. We have had a rather negative debate today. Given the self-congratulatory motion that we have been debating, it could hardly have been otherwise.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is a period during which record numbers of patients were treated by the national health service and unprecedented investment was made. I hear no acknowledgement of those facts.

In her introduction, the minister paid tribute to the national health service and its personnel. Given her political background, I can understand that she has a deep emotional attachment to the principles of the national health service. I doubt whether anyone in this chamber today does not fully support those principles.

I feel that there has been a conspiracy of silence about the state of the NHS for far too long. We see in press reports every day that the NHS is not fulfilling the role that the minister and all of us in the chamber think that it should. The level of patient care is not what we would wish. Until that point is appreciated, any debate will be sterile and negative. When the point is faced up to, we can be more constructive.

We have longer waiting times than we used to. I accept the minister's point regarding the question of waiting lists, but the length of time that a patient has to wait for important treatment is a real problem. The minister should address that. Staff morale in the NHS is undoubtedly extremely low. Every year, substantial numbers of staff vote with their feet. We have fewer nurses than we had the last time Labour was in power. I see that the minister, being unable to deal with the rationale of my argument, has left the chamber.

Robert Brown dealt with the input of the Liberals into the Executive's health proposals. Having read the Liberal party manifesto, I have to say that Robert's party sold itself cheaply. It has not fulfilled one iota of what it promised before the election. Labour promised to spend, spend, spend on the NHS. The mantra of education, education, education was replaced late in the 1997 general election campaign with promises that the NHS would have capital and revenue investment as never before.

That has not happened. There has simply been a continuation of the trend that the Conservative Government introduced in its last three years in office. I accept that there has been a marginal increase in spending, but it is in aggregated expenditure, not real expenditure. Perhaps the minister will address that in his summing-up.

We have had a rather negative debate today. Given the self-congratulatory motion that we have been debating, it could hardly have been otherwise.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C714646", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan (Glasgow) (SSP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 925.0, "ContributionID": 714646, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1823E145P193C714647", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jamieson, Margaret", "ID": 1823, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Kilmarnock and Loudoun" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Jamieson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Margaret Jamieson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 927.0, "ContributionID": 714647, "EditedText": "No, I am sorry, Tommy. I am limited in time. The Tory amendment is a complete turnaround for a party whose policies positively encourage the chosen few to take all the decisions in closed rooms. That is currently manifest in the service. Recently, the Health and Community Care Committee took evidence about Stracathro, which continued to carry out the policies of the Tories, which amounted to \"Don't tell the people until you have decided what you are going to do.\" The Parliament must ensure that we advise the service—by the service I mean everyone who works in the health service—that the days of decisions being made in closed rooms are finished. The national health service is open and accountable. We will talk it up, but we will also attack it if we find that individuals are abusing their positions.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I am sorry, Tommy. I am limited in time.

The Tory amendment is a complete turnaround for a party whose policies positively encourage the chosen few to take all the decisions in closed rooms. That is currently manifest in the service. Recently, the Health and Community Care Committee took evidence about Stracathro, which continued to carry out the policies of the Tories, which amounted to \"Don't tell the people until you have decided what you are going to do.\" The Parliament must ensure that we advise the service—by the service I mean everyone who works in the health service—that the days of decisions being made in closed rooms are finished. The national health service is open and accountable. We will talk it up, but we will also attack it if we find that individuals are abusing their positions.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1926E190P479C714652", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Adam, Brian", "ID": 1926, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Adam", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Brian Adam (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 938.0, "ContributionID": 714652, "EditedText": "Does Mrs Smith think that members of a board should be accountable to the minister, or should they be accountable to the people? That is another dilemma that needs to be examined. In the past, members of boards have considered themselves accountable to ministers rather than to the people.", "EditedTextHTML": "Does Mrs Smith think that members of a board should be accountable to the minister, or should they be accountable to the people? That is another dilemma that needs to be examined. In the past, members of boards have considered themselves accountable to ministers rather than to the people.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C714655", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Simpson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 945.0, "ContributionID": 714655, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1985E207P501C714661", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hamilton, Mr Duncan", "ID": 1985, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Hamilton: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 958.0, "ContributionID": 714661, "EditedText": "Mr Rafferty may have left the Executive's employment, but it does not matter whether he spoke to the press on your behalf or whether you did it yourself. I am not talking about comments made prior to publication.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Rafferty may have left the Executive's employment, but it does not matter whether he spoke to the press on your behalf or whether you did it yourself. I am not talking about comments made prior to publication.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1985E207P501C714658", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hamilton, Mr Duncan", "ID": 1985, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Hamilton: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 952.0, "ContributionID": 714658, "EditedText": "You shake your head and show your disapproval. However, the arrogance that you have shown both in Parliament today and to the Health and Community Care Committee, by undermining the committee convener and ignoring the committee's report before you had even read it, has not helped relations one bit. If you want to have a new relationship with us, will you accept your responsibilities, eat some humble pie and find a new approach?", "EditedTextHTML": "You shake your head and show your disapproval. However, the arrogance that you have shown both in Parliament today and to the Health and Community Care Committee, by undermining the committee convener and ignoring the committee's report before you had even read it, has not helped relations one bit. If you want to have a new relationship with us, will you accept your responsibilities, eat some humble pie and find a new approach?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C714660", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 956.0, "ContributionID": 714660, "EditedText": "Normally I never intervene in debates because, as a minister, I have an opportunity to comment elsewhere. However, I ask Mr Hamilton to correct the record. Will he confirm to the chamber that at no time did I comment to the press on the Health and Community Care Committee's report on Arbuthnott prior to its publication, and will he correct the lie that he and other members of his party have peddled today?", "EditedTextHTML": "Normally I never intervene in debates because, as a minister, I have an opportunity to comment elsewhere. However, I ask Mr Hamilton to correct the record. Will he confirm to the chamber that at no time did I comment to the press on the Health and Community Care Committee's report on Arbuthnott prior to its publication, and will he correct the lie that he and other members of his party have peddled today?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C714666", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 968.0, "ContributionID": 714666, "EditedText": "Order. You are still going on about \"you\". \"You\" is me.", "EditedTextHTML": "Order. You are still going on about \"you\". \"You\" is me.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1985E207P501C714669", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hamilton, Mr Duncan", "ID": 1985, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Hamilton: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 974.0, "ContributionID": 714669, "EditedText": "I do not think that I can because of the time. Does anybody think that Scotland receives an over-generous allocation? I do not think that any of the trusts that are in crisis or any of the people who are asking for more resources in the NHS would go along with that view. Government statistics show that by the end of 2002 there will be £400 less per capita in the health budget in Scotland than if spending were to rise at the same rate as it is rising south of the border. Those are the facts. The minister might describe this as a sterile debate, but that is absolutely the wrong approach. Dorothy-Grace Elder talked about the north-south divide and about the reports on poverty and Glasgow's situation—which several members mentioned. The point is that the top six areas of deprivation in the United Kingdom—and nine of the top 15—are in Glasgow. That is the scale of the problem and one of the things that the Arbuthnott report sought to change. Let us run through the list: Tayside University Hospitals NHS Trust, North Glasgow University Hospitals NHS Trust, Grampian University Hospitals NHS Trust, Argyll and Clyde Acute Hospitals NHS Trust, South Glasgow University Hospitals NHS Trust, Yorkhill NHS Trust, Highland Acute Hospitals NHS Trust and Forth Valley Acute Hospitals NHS Trust. Those are the people who need more resources. They will listen to ministerial statements that we need no more resources—they will laugh and then they will cry because they will realise that such statements are nonsense. Why do not we accept that we will always need more money in the NHS? Why cannot we accept that the Parliament should be doing everything to defend the Scottish interest? That is why the Scottish Parliament exists. The feeling that is coming through from the health service community is that, despite all the warm words, Susan Deacon and the Executive are no further down the road to providing the investment that the NHS needs than their predecessors were. This is a sad day. There have been some good, important speeches in the debate. Both the Jamiesons made some tremendous points about staff. Margaret Smith also made some important points about how things can be driven forward. However, until we learn to engage in a debate—all of us, minister— we will not make progress. We need adequate finance. We need to address the real needs in Scotland, as opposed to the Executive's perceived needs. Let us move, once and for all, above the self-congratulatory new Labour nonsense and decide that we want to put the health service—the patients and its staff—at the forefront of our thoughts.", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not think that I can because of the time.

Does anybody think that Scotland receives an over-generous allocation? I do not think that any of the trusts that are in crisis or any of the people who are asking for more resources in the NHS would go along with that view. Government statistics show that by the end of 2002 there will be £400 less per capita in the health budget in Scotland than if spending were to rise at the same rate as it is rising south of the border. Those are the facts.

The minister might describe this as a sterile debate, but that is absolutely the wrong approach. Dorothy-Grace Elder talked about the north-south divide and about the reports on poverty and Glasgow's situation—which several members mentioned. The point is that the top six areas of deprivation in the United Kingdom—and nine of the top 15—are in Glasgow. That is the scale of the problem and one of the things that the Arbuthnott report sought to change.

Let us run through the list: Tayside University Hospitals NHS Trust, North Glasgow University Hospitals NHS Trust, Grampian University Hospitals NHS Trust, Argyll and Clyde Acute Hospitals NHS Trust, South Glasgow University Hospitals NHS Trust, Yorkhill NHS Trust, Highland Acute Hospitals NHS Trust and Forth Valley Acute Hospitals NHS Trust. Those are the people who need more resources. They will listen to ministerial statements that we need no more resources—they will laugh and then they will cry because they will realise that such statements are nonsense.

Why do not we accept that we will always need more money in the NHS? Why cannot we accept

that the Parliament should be doing everything to defend the Scottish interest? That is why the Scottish Parliament exists. The feeling that is coming through from the health service community is that, despite all the warm words, Susan Deacon and the Executive are no further down the road to providing the investment that the NHS needs than their predecessors were. This is a sad day.

There have been some good, important speeches in the debate. Both the Jamiesons made some tremendous points about staff. Margaret Smith also made some important points about how things can be driven forward. However, until we learn to engage in a debate—all of us, minister— we will not make progress.

We need adequate finance. We need to address the real needs in Scotland, as opposed to the Executive's perceived needs. Let us move, once and for all, above the self-congratulatory new Labour nonsense and decide that we want to put the health service—the patients and its staff—at the forefront of our thoughts.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2033E106P139C714672", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gray, Iain", "ID": 2033, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Pentlands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Iain Gray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Iain Gray: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 981.0, "ContributionID": 714672, "EditedText": "Thank you.On the first day of this term—I do not know whether that is what we call the part of the year between recesses—the Parliament debated health. It is right and fitting that we should also devote this last meeting before the recess to health. On that occasion, members united around the public health agenda, which was good. We freed that debate from the terms of the past, according to which there was no link between poverty and ill health. We all embraced the challenge of the unacceptable health inequalities in our society. A modern, efficient and effective NHS is central to that challenge. We had the chance to embrace that challenge today. What a pity that so much of the debate has failed to free itself from the past— from narrow, party-based point scoring and from crass, personal attacks. This debate is about people—Scotland's people. Cathy Jamieson was right when she highlighted that in her excellent speech. That is what we should have been discussing instead of the other things that have been talked about. Let me deal with the Scottish National party's two obsessions: money and England. I am sure that visitors to the chamber will be astonished to hear how much time the SNP spends speaking about England. It is no surprise to the rest of us in the chamber—", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you.

On the first day of this term—I do not know whether that is what we call the part of the year between recesses—the Parliament debated health. It is right and fitting that we should also devote this last meeting before the recess to health.

On that occasion, members united around the public health agenda, which was good. We freed that debate from the terms of the past, according to which there was no link between poverty and ill health. We all embraced the challenge of the unacceptable health inequalities in our society.

A modern, efficient and effective NHS is central to that challenge. We had the chance to embrace that challenge today. What a pity that so much of the debate has failed to free itself from the past— from narrow, party-based point scoring and from crass, personal attacks.

This debate is about people—Scotland's people. Cathy Jamieson was right when she highlighted that in her excellent speech. That is what we should have been discussing instead of the other things that have been talked about.

Let me deal with the Scottish National party's two obsessions: money and England. I am sure that visitors to the chamber will be astonished to hear how much time the SNP spends speaking about England. It is no surprise to the rest of us in the chamber—

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" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C714682", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil (Central Scotland) (SNP) rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1001.0, "ContributionID": 714682, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2033E106P139C714683", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gray, Iain", "ID": 2033, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Pentlands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Iain Gray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Iain Gray: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1003.0, "ContributionID": 714683, "EditedText": "A certain anticipation of the holidays has been evident this week in Parliament. Holiday moods can vary. We have a choice. We could have a Hallowe'en debate about our NHS— searching out the dark side, working it up to a scary horror story and painting a nightmare vision of our health service. That gets the headlines, but it is a mask. It is guising and it serves us ill. We are certainly ill served by attempts to make a scare story—Interruption. We are ill served by attempts to make a scare story out of proper attempts to liberate learning-disabled people from long-stay hospitals. We are ill served by those who talk about spin doctors and then wave headlines at me. I have spoken to hundreds of learning- disabled people and they all say the same thing: \"Close those hospitals down.\" That is what we are doing. Ben Wallace said that it is nearly Christmas. We could also have the Christmas wish-list debate, with its endless demand for resources. Duncan Hamilton admitted that the demands are endless. That wish list is unfocused and uncosted, and size is the only criterion—massive size, according to Dorothy-Grace Elder. Quality is not considered. Resentment is fuelled by endless comparisons with others: \"Look what they have in England.\" Look what we have here—an excellent health service, driven forward by staff—Interruption.", "EditedTextHTML": "A certain anticipation of the holidays has been evident this week in Parliament. Holiday moods can vary. We have a choice. We could have a Hallowe'en debate about our NHS— searching out the dark side, working it up to a scary horror story and painting a nightmare vision of our health service. That gets the headlines, but it is a mask. It is guising and it serves us ill. We are certainly ill served by attempts to make a scare story—[Interruption.] We are ill served by attempts to make a scare story out of proper attempts to liberate learning-disabled people from long-stay hospitals. We are ill served by those who talk about spin doctors and then wave headlines at me. I have spoken to hundreds of learning- disabled people and they all say the same thing: \"Close those hospitals down.\" That is what we are doing.

Ben Wallace said that it is nearly Christmas. We could also have the Christmas wish-list debate, with its endless demand for resources. Duncan Hamilton admitted that the demands are endless. That wish list is unfocused and uncosted, and size is the only criterion—massive size, according to Dorothy-Grace Elder. Quality is not considered. Resentment is fuelled by endless comparisons with others: \"Look what they have in England.\"

Look what we have here—an excellent health service, driven forward by staff—[Interruption.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C714692", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27267, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1017.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1017.0, "ID": 27267, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1022.0, "ContributionID": 714692, "EditedText": "The next question is, that motion S1M-117, in the name of Mike Russell, on the Act of Settlement, as amended, be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "The next question is, that motion S1M-117, in the name of Mike Russell, on the Act of Settlement, as amended, be agreed to.

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" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "C714697", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27267, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1017.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1017.0, "ID": 27267, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1029.0, "ContributionID": 714697, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

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" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C714702", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27267, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1017.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1017.0, "ID": 27267, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1036.0, "ContributionID": 714702, "EditedText": "I knew that it was too good to last. There will be a division.", "EditedTextHTML": "I knew that it was too good to last. There will be a division.

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" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "C714715", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27267, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1017.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1017.0, "ID": 27267, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1058.0, "ContributionID": 714715, "EditedText": "FOR Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)(LD)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)AGAINST Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnston, Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)ABSTENTIONS Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)
(LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)

AGAINST

Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnston, Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)

ABSTENTIONS

Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C714716", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27267, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1017.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1017.0, "ID": 27267, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1059.0, "ContributionID": 714716, "EditedText": "The result of the division is as follows: For 67, Against 18, Abstentions 32.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result of the division is as follows: For 67, Against 18, Abstentions 32.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "C714717", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27267, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1017.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1017.0, "ID": 27267, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1061.0, "ContributionID": 714717, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "C714718", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27267, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1017.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1017.0, "ID": 27267, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1062.0, "ContributionID": 714718, "EditedText": "That the Parliament is wholeheartedly committed to the NHS in Scotland and applauds the contribution and commitment of NHS staff across Scotland; welcomes the abolition of the internal market; recognises the record levels of investment in the NHS enabling the biggest ever hospital building programme; believes that the development of a modern NHS depends on a sustained programme of service redesign, greater public accountability and involvement and true partnership working across the NHS in Scotland, and pledges to work with the Executive, NHS and the Scottish people to address constructively and imaginatively the challenges of building a 21st century NHS.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament is wholeheartedly committed to the NHS in Scotland and applauds the contribution and commitment of NHS staff across Scotland; welcomes the abolition of the internal market; recognises the record levels of investment in the NHS enabling the biggest ever hospital building programme; believes that the development of a modern NHS depends on a sustained programme of service redesign, greater public accountability and involvement and true partnership working across the NHS in Scotland, and pledges to work with the Executive, NHS and the Scottish people to address constructively and imaginatively the challenges of building a 21st century NHS.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C714720", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27267, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1017.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1017.0, "ID": 27267, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1065.0, "ContributionID": 714720, "EditedText": "I can answer that. It was always assumed—and it was agreed a couple of weeks ago—that those staff would come in on 4 January to deal with the matter. The only difference from the statement that was issued on e-mail is that they hope to get the system up and running on 4 January rather than on 5 January. However, it had already been agreed that they would come in exceptionally. We record our thanks to them for that service. Applause. As some members are not staying for the members' business debate, I take this opportunity to wish everyone a happy Christmas and a prosperous millennium. I also make the usual request for members to leave quietly.", "EditedTextHTML": "I can answer that. It was always assumed—and it was agreed a couple of weeks ago—that those staff would come in on 4 January to deal with the matter. The only difference from the statement that was issued on e-mail is that they hope to get the system up and running on 4 January rather than on 5 January. However, it had already been agreed that they would come in exceptionally. We record our thanks to them for that service. [Applause.]

As some members are not staying for the members' business debate, I take this opportunity to wish everyone a happy Christmas and a prosperous millennium. I also make the usual request for members to leave quietly.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2122E6P19C714727", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Cornton Vale Prison", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27268, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1067.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1067.0, "ID": 27268, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay", "ID": 2122, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lyndsay McIntosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Lyndsay McIntosh (Central Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1081.0, "ContributionID": 714727, "EditedText": "When I did the arithmetic quickly, I calculated that we would have only two minutes, so I have scrubbed a lot of my speech. I thank Sylvia Jackson for bringing this motion before us. I associate myself with her comments and, in particular, with those of Richard Simpson. I, too, am a member of the all-party group and was with Dr Simpson when he visited Brenda House. Sylvia pointed out that women are put in jail for offences such as television licence evasion and fine default. I would like the right sentences to be given to the right people. Prison should be used as a last resort. It is not the right decision for fine defaulters and shoplifters who are trying to feed a family. I have examined some of the things that are happening in offender rehabilitation in other parts of the world, and have learned that an important goal of the criminal justice system is to help offenders to become law-abiding citizens. I hope that some of the training that prisoners get in prison and at halfway houses does that. Incarceration and intensive supervision by themselves do not lead to the long-term changes that many offenders need to live productive and law-abiding lives in the community. Treatment services and programmes are also necessary to bring about more long-lasting changes in behaviour. Research shows that effective correctional treatment requires a careful match between the specific needs of offenders and programmes that address those needs. Treatments that match offender needs to the programme, using behavioural training techniques, have been shown to reduce offending by an average of 50 per cent. Under such programmes, offenders do not commit new offences and do not break the conditions attached to their release. Rehabilitation programmes are more effective when delivered in community rather than prison settings. As one of the few members of Parliament to have been a position to send women to Cornton Vale, I can tell the chamber that I considered doing so only as a very last resort. There are far better things to do with people who need help and treatment than sending them to prison.", "EditedTextHTML": "When I did the arithmetic quickly, I calculated that we would have only two minutes, so I have scrubbed a lot of my speech.

I thank Sylvia Jackson for bringing this motion before us. I associate myself with her comments and, in particular, with those of Richard Simpson. I, too, am a member of the all-party group and was with Dr Simpson when he visited Brenda House.

Sylvia pointed out that women are put in jail for offences such as television licence evasion and fine default. I would like the right sentences to be given to the right people. Prison should be used as a last resort. It is not the right decision for fine defaulters and shoplifters who are trying to feed a family.

I have examined some of the things that are happening in offender rehabilitation in other parts of the world, and have learned that an important goal of the criminal justice system is to help offenders to become law-abiding citizens. I hope that some of the training that prisoners get in prison and at halfway houses does that. Incarceration and intensive supervision by themselves do not lead to the long-term changes that many offenders need to live productive and law-abiding lives in the community. Treatment services and programmes are also necessary to bring about more long-lasting changes in behaviour.

Research shows that effective correctional treatment requires a careful match between the specific needs of offenders and programmes that address those needs. Treatments that match offender needs to the programme, using behavioural training techniques, have been shown to reduce offending by an average of 50 per cent. Under such programmes, offenders do not commit new offences and do not break the conditions attached to their release.

Rehabilitation programmes are more effective when delivered in community rather than prison settings. As one of the few members of Parliament to have been a position to send women to Cornton Vale, I can tell the chamber that I considered doing so only as a very last resort. There are far better things to do with people who need help and treatment than sending them to prison.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C714740", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Cornton Vale Prison", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27268, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1067.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1067.0, "ID": 27268, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Angus MacKay: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1111.0, "ContributionID": 714740, "EditedText": "Yes, certainly.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes, certainly.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1878E208P502C714733", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Cornton Vale Prison", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27268, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1067.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1067.0, "ID": 27268, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Dr Winnie", "ID": 1878, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Winnie Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Winnie Ewing (Highlands and Islands) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1097.0, "ContributionID": 714733, "EditedText": "Would the minister find it useful to meet the sheriffs to get across the fact that we are all united in thinking that short prison sentences do no good and that sending people to prison for, say, non-payment of fines, is not acceptable to the Parliament? Perhaps an early meeting with the sheriffs, to find out whether they are aware of our feelings, would be a good idea.", "EditedTextHTML": "Would the minister find it useful to meet the sheriffs to get across the fact that we are all united in thinking that short prison sentences do no good and that sending people to prison for, say, non-payment of fines, is not acceptable to the Parliament? Perhaps an early meeting with the sheriffs, to find out whether they are aware of our feelings, would be a good idea.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1990E181P340C714735", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Cornton Vale Prison", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27268, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1067.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1067.0, "ID": 27268, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robson, Euan", "ID": 1990, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Roxburgh and Berwickshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Euan Robson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Euan Robson (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1101.0, "ContributionID": 714735, "EditedText": "Are figures kept on how many fine defaulters are sent to Cornton Vale? Do we know what percentage they form of annual admissions?", "EditedTextHTML": "Are figures kept on how many fine defaulters are sent to Cornton Vale? Do we know what percentage they form of annual admissions?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5919292+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C714741", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Cornton Vale Prison", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27268, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1067.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1067.0, "ID": 27268, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1113.0, "ContributionID": 714741, "EditedText": "We are rather tight for time. We must stay within 30 minutes.", "EditedTextHTML": "We are rather tight for time. We must stay within 30 minutes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5919292+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C714742", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Cornton Vale Prison", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27268, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1067.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1067.0, "ID": 27268, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1115.0, "ContributionID": 714742, "EditedText": "This is a crucial point and is central to the motion. I hope that the minister will examine halfway houses. They are prevalent in north America and are certainly not seen as forms of custody, but as forms of supportive communities, particularly for those with drug problems.", "EditedTextHTML": "This is a crucial point and is central to the motion. I hope that the minister will examine halfway houses. They are prevalent in north America and are certainly not seen as forms of custody, but as forms of supportive communities, particularly for those with drug problems.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5919292+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1821E295P538C714744", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Cornton Vale Prison", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27268, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1067.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1067.0, "ID": 27268, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Mrs Margaret", "ID": 1821, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Moray" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1119.0, "ContributionID": 714744, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5919292+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C714745", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Cornton Vale Prison", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27268, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1067.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1067.0, "ID": 27268, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1121.0, "ContributionID": 714745, "EditedText": "I am sorry but, to meet the time limits, we must come to a conclusion.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry but, to meet the time limits, we must come to a conclusion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5919292+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C714746", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Cornton Vale Prison", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27268, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1067.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1067.0, "ID": 27268, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Angus MacKay: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1123.0, "ContributionID": 714746, "EditedText": "I apologise to the member. How much time do I have left, Presiding Officer?", "EditedTextHTML": "I apologise to the member. How much time do I have left, Presiding Officer?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5919292+00:00" }, { "ID": "C714749", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Cornton Vale Prison", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27268, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1067.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1067.0, "ID": 27268, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1129.0, "ContributionID": 714749, "EditedText": "Meeting closed at 17:49.", "EditedTextHTML": "Meeting closed at 17:49.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5919292+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C714234", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Motion without notice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27237, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 27237, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fergus Ewing (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP) rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 55.0, "ContributionID": 714234, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:01:17.5713192+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C714241", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Motion without notice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27237, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 27237, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fergus Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 70.0, "ContributionID": 714241, "EditedText": "On a point of order.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:01:17.5713192+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1870E181P475C714367", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robison, Shona", "ID": 1870, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Shona Robison", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Shona Robison: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 339.0, "ContributionID": 714367, "EditedText": "I say to Mr McMahon that some self-reflection is needed. The members of the Equal Opportunities Committee are hard working and I resent his comments. The Government cannot have it both ways. This Parliament has the right to discuss all matters, including the very important matter of equal opportunities, which I wish was not reserved. The fact that we have an Equal Opportunities Committee sends out a message to the people of Scotland that equal opportunities are at the core of this Parliament's philosophy. I hope that, by the end of the day, we can reach a unanimous decision to support this motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "I say to Mr McMahon that some self-reflection is needed. The members of the Equal Opportunities Committee are hard working and I resent his comments.

The Government cannot have it both ways. This Parliament has the right to discuss all matters, including the very important matter of equal opportunities, which I wish was not reserved. The fact that we have an Equal Opportunities Committee sends out a message to the people of Scotland that equal opportunities are at the core of this Parliament's philosophy. I hope that, by the end of the day, we can reach a unanimous decision to support this motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:01:17.5713192+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1870E181P475C714731", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Cornton Vale Prison", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27268, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1067.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1067.0, "ID": 27268, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robison, Shona", "ID": 1870, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Shona Robison", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Shona Robison (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1092.0, "ContributionID": 714731, "EditedText": "I also thank Sylvia for lodging this motion. As many members have said already, Cornton Vale has a lot of women who should not be there. Many of them are there for non-payment of fines. An analysis of the criminal justice system showed that women were more likely to be given custodial sentences for crimes such as non-payment of fines—if they can be defined as crimes. When we consider many of the women who are in Cornton Vale, we could describe them more as victims than criminals. The system has failed them. As has been said, a huge number have been physically or sexually abused. Many have chronic alcohol or drugs problems. They need help, not punishment. In my previous life in social work, I was involved in placing people into drug rehabilitation centres and so on. I had to try to find appropriate placements for them. It was frustrating because, when a woman was ready to go into a rehabilitation or detoxification unit, it was necessary to strike while the iron was hot. If there was no place available, going back to them four weeks later was no good, because the opportunity had passed. We must have the resources, so that when a woman says, \"Yes, I am ready to seek treatment\", the treatment must be available. Much has been said about the other problems faced by women in Cornton Vale, so I will skip over most of those issues. We must break the cycle of women going in and out of prison with little being done to tackle the underlying problems. There are many good alternative to custody programmes. Halfway houses are a good idea, and I will find out more about them. The criminal justice system is, as all members have said, currently failing these vulnerable women. I hope that this Parliament will change that situation sooner rather than later.", "EditedTextHTML": "I also thank Sylvia for lodging this motion. As many members have said already, Cornton Vale has a lot of women who should not be there. Many of them are there for non-payment of fines. An analysis of the criminal justice system showed that women were more likely to be given custodial sentences for crimes such as non-payment of fines—if they can be defined as crimes. When we consider many of the women who are in Cornton Vale, we could describe them more as victims than criminals. The system has failed them. As has been said, a huge number have been physically or sexually abused. Many have chronic alcohol or drugs problems. They need help, not punishment.

In my previous life in social work, I was involved in placing people into drug rehabilitation centres and so on. I had to try to find appropriate placements for them. It was frustrating because, when a woman was ready to go into a rehabilitation or detoxification unit, it was necessary to strike while the iron was hot. If there was no place available, going back to them four weeks later was no good, because the opportunity had passed. We must have the resources, so that when a woman says, \"Yes, I am ready to seek treatment\", the treatment must be available.

Much has been said about the other problems faced by women in Cornton Vale, so I will skip over most of those issues. We must break the cycle of women going in and out of prison with little being done to tackle the underlying problems. There are many good alternative to custody programmes. Halfway houses are a good idea, and I will find out more about them. The criminal justice system is, as all members have said, currently failing these vulnerable women. I hope that this Parliament will change that situation sooner rather than later.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:00:18.3299743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C714243", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Motion without notice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27237, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 27237, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fergus Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 74.0, "ContributionID": 714243, "EditedText": "Mr Rumbles would not allow me to intervene. Could I continue?", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Rumbles would not allow me to intervene. Could I continue?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:01:17.5713192+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C714267", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Motion without notice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27237, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 27237, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fergus Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 122.0, "ContributionID": 714267, "EditedText": "I thank Mr McCabe for giving way. Is he aware that a member of the Labour party supports the motion? Rhoda Grant, during a meeting of the Rural Affairs Committee, said to Ross Finnie: \"I am suggesting that you could ask the Treasury to underwrite this scheme.\"—Official Report, Rural Affairs Committee, 3 December 1999; c 278. I sincerely hope that Ms Grant will support this motion today as she did on 3 December.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank Mr McCabe for giving way. Is he aware that a member of the Labour party supports the motion? Rhoda Grant, during a meeting of the Rural Affairs Committee, said to Ross Finnie:

\"I am suggesting that you could ask the Treasury to underwrite this scheme.\"—[Official Report, Rural Affairs Committee, 3 December 1999; c 278.]

I sincerely hope that Ms Grant will support this motion today as she did on 3 December.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:01:17.5713192+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1870E181P475C714365", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robison, Shona", "ID": 1870, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Shona Robison", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Shona Robison: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 335.0, "ContributionID": 714365, "EditedText": "If Mrs Mulligan's feelings were so strong, I am sure that she would be working to remove Mr Campbell from the Labour party. This motion is important because we do not want Sam Campbell's comments—or those of anyone else—to be acceptable in modern-day Scotland. We want Scotland to be united in condemning discrimination against any section of the population. That is why this debate is not a waste of time. It is very important that this Parliament sends that message out to the people of Scotland and sets a lead in tackling discrimination wherever it arises. It is also important to examine the role of the Parliament. Several people have said that we should not discuss reserved matters and have suggested that the SNP is somehow trying to destroy the Parliament by doing so. As a member of the Equal Opportunities Committee, on which I am proud to serve, I remind members that equal opportunities are a reserved matter. Nevertheless, this Parliament took the right decision in setting up an Equal Opportunities Committee.", "EditedTextHTML": "If Mrs Mulligan's feelings were so strong, I am sure that she would be working to remove Mr Campbell from the Labour party.

This motion is important because we do not want Sam Campbell's comments—or those of anyone else—to be acceptable in modern-day Scotland. We want Scotland to be united in condemning discrimination against any section of the population. That is why this debate is not a waste of time. It is very important that this Parliament sends that message out to the people of Scotland and sets a lead in tackling discrimination wherever it arises.

It is also important to examine the role of the Parliament. Several people have said that we should not discuss reserved matters and have suggested that the SNP is somehow trying to destroy the Parliament by doing so. As a member of the Equal Opportunities Committee, on which I am proud to serve, I remind members that equal opportunities are a reserved matter. Nevertheless, this Parliament took the right decision in setting up an Equal Opportunities Committee.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:01:17.5713192+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1870E181P475C714373", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robison, Shona", "ID": 1870, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Shona Robison", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Shona Robison rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 352.0, "ContributionID": 714373, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:01:17.5713192+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C714391", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Hampden Park", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27239, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 385.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 385.0, "ID": 27239, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 395.0, "ContributionID": 714391, "EditedText": "Rubbish.", "EditedTextHTML": "Rubbish.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:01:10.1212253+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C714482", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27242, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 478.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27243, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 479.0, "QuestionHeading": "Rural Transport Strategy", "QuestionHeadingID": 27255, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 571.0, "DisplayOrder": 571.0, "ID": 27255, "ParentID": 27243 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 576.0, "ContributionID": 714482, "EditedText": "Karen Whitefield has raised an important issue concerning the continuity of services—in particular bus services—in rural areas. Her points are very relevant in the context of our integrated transport bill, which I will introduce to Parliament next year. That bill will examine the whole issue of improving bus services, especially in rural areas, and ensuring that we improve the quality of consultation with local people.", "EditedTextHTML": "Karen Whitefield has raised an important issue concerning the continuity of services—in particular bus services—in rural areas. Her points are very relevant in the context of our integrated transport bill, which I will introduce to Parliament next year. That bill will examine the whole issue of improving bus services, especially in rural areas, and ensuring that we improve the quality of consultation with local people.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:18.1559401+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1756E184P464C714553", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Grahame, Christine", "ID": 1756, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Christine Grahame", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Christine Grahame: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 730.0, "ContributionID": 714553, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:00:07.7769616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C714211", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Motion without notice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27237, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 27237, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell (South of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 6.0, "ContributionID": 714211, "EditedText": "Presiding Officer, I have given you notice that I would like to move a motion without notice, in my name, about the agricultural business improvement scheme. I submitted the motion to you this morning and I want to address the issue of whether it should be taken.", "EditedTextHTML": "Presiding Officer, I have given you notice that I would like to move a motion without notice, in my name, about the agricultural business improvement scheme. I submitted the motion to you this morning and I want to address the issue of whether it should be taken.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5138024+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C714212", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Motion without notice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27237, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 27237, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 8.0, "ContributionID": 714212, "EditedText": "Under the standing orders, the decision whether to take such a motion is entirely mine. As the Rural Affairs Committee has reported this morning on ABIS, as the scheme ends on 31 December and as the application is supported by more than one party, I have decided that I should accept the motion. My decision allows the Parliament to decide whether to debate the issue. The motion that I am accepting is simply the motion without notice that an extra debate be added to this morning's business.", "EditedTextHTML": "Under the standing orders, the decision whether to take such a motion is entirely mine. As the Rural Affairs Committee has reported this morning on ABIS, as the scheme ends on 31 December and as the application is supported by more than one party, I have decided that I should accept the motion. My decision allows the Parliament to decide whether to debate the issue. The motion that I am accepting is simply the motion without notice that an extra debate be added to this morning's business.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5138024+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2228E151P202C714213", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Motion without notice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27237, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 27237, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McCabe, Tom", "ID": 2228, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Tom McCabe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Parliament (Mr Tom McCabe): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 10.0, "ContributionID": 714213, "EditedText": "On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I appreciate your explanation, but it would be useful to stress to the chamber again the interpretation and ruling that you have just given. I understand that the motion that has been referred to is a motion without notice to debate an issue and that the debate that we will now have will be on whether we should discuss the issue, not on the substantive details of the issue.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I appreciate your explanation, but it would be useful to stress to the chamber again the interpretation and ruling that you have just given.

I understand that the motion that has been referred to is a motion without notice to debate an issue and that the debate that we will now have will be on whether we should discuss the issue, not on the substantive details of the issue.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5138024+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C714223", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Motion without notice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27237, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 27237, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 31.0, "ContributionID": 714223, "EditedText": "The Deputy First Minister is unusually animated this morning. The second matter of great importance for the chamber is that this morning is SNP Opposition time. If we choose to bring a motion for debate, it should not be subject to veto by the Executive. There is a basic principle about allocation of parliamentary time, which I have addressed repeatedly in the Procedures Committee. In the circumstances, it would be wrong for the Parliament and any member on those benches to vote not to allow the SNP to use its time in the way that it wishes. If the Parliament were to do that, it would be a great blow to democracy here.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Deputy First Minister is unusually animated this morning.

The second matter of great importance for the chamber is that this morning is SNP Opposition time. If we choose to bring a motion for debate, it should not be subject to veto by the Executive. There is a basic principle about allocation of parliamentary time, which I have addressed repeatedly in the Procedures Committee. In the circumstances, it would be wrong for the Parliament and any member on those benches to vote not to allow the SNP to use its time in the way that it wishes. If the Parliament were to do that, it would be a great blow to democracy here.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5138024+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2044E178P334C714227", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Motion without notice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27237, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 27237, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jenkins, Ian", "ID": 2044, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ian Jenkins", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ian Jenkins: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 39.0, "ContributionID": 714227, "EditedText": "Mr Russell makes a point about abuse of the parliamentary system. The motion in Mr Russell's name—which I signed—was e-mailed to me, and I was told that it would not be debated. If anybody is abusing the parliamentary system, it is Mr Russell—Interruption.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Russell makes a point about abuse of the parliamentary system. The motion in Mr Russell's name—which I signed—was e-mailed to me, and I was told that it would not be debated. If anybody is abusing the parliamentary system, it is Mr Russell—[Interruption.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5138024+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C714229", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Motion without notice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27237, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 27237, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 43.0, "ContributionID": 714229, "EditedText": "We have heard another Liberal Democrat whose vote will not follow his voice. I regret that, because this is an issue of parliamentary privilege; it is an issue about how the Parliament operates—whether the Executive dominates it or parties have a shot at things. If members vote against the motion, they are not only condemning 4,000 people to considerable financial hardship—remember that—but voting against Scottish democracy. I ask members to bear that in mind when they vote this morning. I move,That motion S1M-392 be taken at this meeting of the Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "We have heard another Liberal Democrat whose vote will not follow his voice. I regret that, because this is an issue of parliamentary privilege; it is an issue about how the Parliament operates—whether the Executive dominates it or parties have a shot at things. If members vote against the motion, they are not only condemning 4,000 people to considerable financial hardship—remember that—but voting against Scottish democracy. I ask members to bear that in mind when they vote this morning.

I move,

That motion S1M-392 be taken at this meeting of the Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5138024+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1892E34P73C714230", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Motion without notice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27237, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 27237, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Fergusson, Alex", "ID": 1892, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Fergusson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Fergusson (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 46.0, "ContributionID": 714230, "EditedText": "I would like to support Mr Russell's desire to have the issue heard in the Parliament. I was part of the Rural Affairs Committee, which heard evidence from all sides of the debate. The committee felt sympathy towards the Minister for Rural Affairs because it became obvious, through the process of gathering evidence, that he had been handed a poisoned chalice by his predecessor, Lord Sewel. One of the principles at stake is the extent to which the actions of the present Administration should be led by the promises of the previous one. What is more important is that there was all- party agreement in the committee about the fact that many applicants have spent considerable sums of money applying for the scheme. They are, under the present circumstances, very unlikely to get that money back. It is essential, for the sake of democracy and principle, that the matter be debated in this chamber.", "EditedTextHTML": "I would like to support Mr Russell's desire to have the issue heard in the Parliament. I was part of the Rural Affairs Committee, which heard evidence from all sides of the debate. The committee felt sympathy towards the Minister for Rural Affairs because it became obvious, through the process of gathering evidence, that he had been handed a poisoned chalice by his predecessor, Lord Sewel. One of the principles at stake is the extent to which the actions of the present Administration should be led by the promises of the previous one.

What is more important is that there was all- party agreement in the committee about the fact that many applicants have spent considerable sums of money applying for the scheme. They are, under the present circumstances, very unlikely to get that money back. It is essential, for the sake of democracy and principle, that the matter be debated in this chamber.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5138024+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2228E151P202C714236", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Motion without notice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27237, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 27237, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McCabe, Tom", "ID": 2228, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Tom McCabe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McCabe: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 60.0, "ContributionID": 714236, "EditedText": "Once again, we have seen the coalition between the Scottish National party and the Conservative party. I hope that the Conservative party will take the time— Interruption.", "EditedTextHTML": "Once again, we have seen the coalition between the Scottish National party and the Conservative party. I hope that the Conservative party will take the time— [Interruption.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C714237", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Motion without notice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27237, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 27237, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 62.0, "ContributionID": 714237, "EditedText": "Order.", "EditedTextHTML": "Order.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1821E295P538C714238", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Motion without notice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27237, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 27237, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Mrs Margaret", "ID": 1821, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Moray" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Margaret Ewing (Moray) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 64.0, "ContributionID": 714238, "EditedText": "On a point of order. Is not it the case that we were all elected to represent the interests of all the people of Scotland, irrespective of political party?", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. Is not it the case that we were all elected to represent the interests of all the people of Scotland, irrespective of political party?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C714239", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Motion without notice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27237, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 27237, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 66.0, "ContributionID": 714239, "EditedText": "That is a truism, but not a point of order.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is a truism, but not a point of order.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2228E151P202C714240", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Motion without notice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27237, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 27237, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McCabe, Tom", "ID": 2228, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Tom McCabe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McCabe: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 68.0, "ContributionID": 714240, "EditedText": "That is true. I hope that the Conservative party—Interruption.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is true. I hope that the Conservative party—[Interruption.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C714249", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Motion without notice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27237, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 27237, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 86.0, "ContributionID": 714249, "EditedText": "Order. That is not a point of order, Mr Gallie.", "EditedTextHTML": "Order. That is not a point of order, Mr Gallie.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2228E151P202C714259", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Motion without notice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27237, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 27237, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McCabe, Tom", "ID": 2228, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Tom McCabe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McCabe: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 106.0, "ContributionID": 714259, "EditedText": "It is not the Parliament's fault that the SNP is unable to organise its own business plans to avoid the need for disruption to this Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is not the Parliament's fault that the SNP is unable to organise its own business plans to avoid the need for disruption to this Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C714263", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Motion without notice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27237, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 27237, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 114.0, "ContributionID": 714263, "EditedText": "That is not a point oforder.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is not a point of

order.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2228E151P202C714266", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Motion without notice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27237, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 27237, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McCabe, Tom", "ID": 2228, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Tom McCabe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McCabe: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 120.0, "ContributionID": 714266, "EditedText": "This is not a new issue. It has been widely known that ABIS would end on 31 December. The Rural Affairs Committee has considered the matter over a number of weeks and if there had been a need for debate before the end of the year it would, no doubt, have brought something forward before yesterday.", "EditedTextHTML": "This is not a new issue. It has been widely known that ABIS would end on 31 December. The Rural Affairs Committee has considered the matter over a number of weeks and if there had been a need for debate before the end of the year it would, no doubt, have brought something forward before yesterday.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1863E284P532C714270", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Motion without notice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27237, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 27237, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Cunningham, Roseanna", "ID": 1863, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Perth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Roseanna Cunningham", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Roseanna Cunningham (Perth) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 128.0, "ContributionID": 714270, "EditedText": "Debate it.", "EditedTextHTML": "Debate it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2228E151P202C714271", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Motion without notice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27237, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 27237, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McCabe, Tom", "ID": 2228, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Tom McCabe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McCabe: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 130.0, "ContributionID": 714271, "EditedText": "We are saying that the way in which the motion has been brought before this Parliament is wrong and shows discourtesy to the Parliament. The report from the Rural Affairs Committee has been published only today. It has taken the committee nearly two weeks to compile it; equally, the Executive needs time to consider it and make a response.", "EditedTextHTML": "We are saying that the way in which the motion has been brought before this Parliament is wrong and shows discourtesy to the Parliament.

The report from the Rural Affairs Committee has been published only today. It has taken the committee nearly two weeks to compile it; equally, the Executive needs time to consider it and make a response.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2228E151P202C714273", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Motion without notice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27237, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 27237, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McCabe, Tom", "ID": 2228, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Tom McCabe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McCabe: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 134.0, "ContributionID": 714273, "EditedText": "I am more than happy to give way—it is the member's time.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am more than happy to give way—it is the member's time.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2140E187P335C714276", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Motion without notice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27237, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 27237, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Rumbles, Mike", "ID": 2140, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Rumbles", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Rumbles: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 140.0, "ContributionID": 714276, "EditedText": "I was not at the Rural Affairs Committee meeting because I was convening the Standards Committee at the same time. The Standards Committee cannot meet without the convener.", "EditedTextHTML": "I was not at the Rural Affairs Committee meeting because I was convening the Standards Committee at the same time. The Standards Committee cannot meet without the convener.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2066E64P88C714278", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Motion without notice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27237, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 27237, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McGrigor, Jamie", "ID": 2066, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie McGrigor", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Jamie McGrigor (Highlands and Islands) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 144.0, "ContributionID": 714278, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2228E151P202C714279", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Motion without notice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27237, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 27237, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McCabe, Tom", "ID": 2228, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Tom McCabe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McCabe: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 146.0, "ContributionID": 714279, "EditedText": "It would be wrong to debate the issue so soon after the production of an interim report. I oppose Mike Russell's motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "It would be wrong to debate the issue so soon after the production of an interim report. I oppose Mike Russell's motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "C714281", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Motion without notice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27237, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 27237, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 150.0, "ContributionID": 714281, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C714282", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Motion without notice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27237, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 27237, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 152.0, "ContributionID": 714282, "EditedText": "There will be a division.", "EditedTextHTML": "There will be a division.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2029E47P167C714292", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Henry, Hugh", "ID": 2029, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Hugh Henry", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Hugh Henry: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 172.0, "ContributionID": 714292, "EditedText": "Mr Russell said that he hopes the amendment is not simply an attempt to put responsibility on to somebody else, yet in the e- mail he sent on 16 August, he said: \"The Parliament itself cannot change the Act ofSettlement . . . This is not a challenge to Westminster\".", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Russell said that he hopes the amendment is not simply an attempt to put responsibility on to somebody else, yet in the e- mail he sent on 16 August, he said:

\"The Parliament itself cannot change the Act of

Settlement . . . This is not a challenge to Westminster\".

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C714284", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Motion without notice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27237, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 27237, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 155.0, "ContributionID": 714284, "EditedText": "The result of the division is: For 52, Against 61, Abstentions 0.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result of the division is: For 52, Against 61, Abstentions 0.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "C714285", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Motion without notice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27237, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 27237, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 157.0, "ContributionID": 714285, "EditedText": "Motion disagreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion disagreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C714293", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 174.0, "ContributionID": 714293, "EditedText": "Before you respond to that, Mr Russell, I should say, in view of what you said a moment ago, that it is not good practice to quote private conversations in the Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "Before you respond to that, Mr Russell, I should say, in view of what you said a moment ago, that it is not good practice to quote private conversations in the Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C714294", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 176.0, "ContributionID": 714294, "EditedText": "I apologise. Mr McAveety and I have a number of private conversations. I will not—", "EditedTextHTML": "I apologise. Mr McAveety and I have a number of private conversations. I will not—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C714289", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 166.0, "ContributionID": 714289, "EditedText": "I am sorry that Mr McMahon is not better informed. There is a motion and our members have raised the issue. Mr Salmond has raised the issue and spoken to it on a number of occasions. Even if Michael McMahon were right, hisintervention would not be in the spirit of today's debate, in which we are trying to change something that needs to be changed. With respect to Michael McMahon—I know that he supports the change—the best way to get change is for people in this chamber to agree that it is needed, rather than for them to make political points, which will get us no further. The act will remain unchanged if the matter is seen as party political. I am sorry that Mr McMahon is waving his hands in a rather odd fashion. There is not a shred of political advantage in this issue for any party in the chamber. There is an advantage for the people of Scotland, however, if, today of all days, the Parliament comes together to say that the act is wrong. There need be no wild words or statements, but together we should add our voice to the voices of the Church of Scotland, the Catholic Church, the Baptist union, the Hindu community, the Muslim community, distinguished historian Tom Devine and James MacMillan, who from the reporters' gallery conducted a fanfare for the opening of this Parliament on 1 July. If the Parliament adds its voice to those voices, we will do the Parliament credit. If, however, we comb through the minutiae of history to find a reason not to change things, they will not change. I want to hear one simple thing from Mr McCabe: that there is an intention to move forward. The amendment says simply that this is a terribly difficult matter and that it is somebody else's problem. We should remember Burke's words: \"It is necessary only for the good man to do nothing for evil to triumph.\" I am sorry that the First Minister laughs at that, that he does not regard institutionalised discrimination of any description as unacceptable and that he does not want to join us in moving forward.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry that Mr McMahon is not better informed. There is a motion and our members have raised the issue. Mr Salmond has raised the issue and spoken to it on a number of occasions.

Even if Michael McMahon were right, his

intervention would not be in the spirit of today's debate, in which we are trying to change something that needs to be changed. With respect to Michael McMahon—I know that he supports the change—the best way to get change is for people in this chamber to agree that it is needed, rather than for them to make political points, which will get us no further. The act will remain unchanged if the matter is seen as party political.

I am sorry that Mr McMahon is waving his hands in a rather odd fashion. There is not a shred of political advantage in this issue for any party in the chamber. There is an advantage for the people of Scotland, however, if, today of all days, the Parliament comes together to say that the act is wrong. There need be no wild words or statements, but together we should add our voice to the voices of the Church of Scotland, the Catholic Church, the Baptist union, the Hindu community, the Muslim community, distinguished historian Tom Devine and James MacMillan, who from the reporters' gallery conducted a fanfare for the opening of this Parliament on 1 July. If the Parliament adds its voice to those voices, we will do the Parliament credit. If, however, we comb through the minutiae of history to find a reason not to change things, they will not change.

I want to hear one simple thing from Mr McCabe: that there is an intention to move forward. The amendment says simply that this is a terribly difficult matter and that it is somebody else's problem. We should remember Burke's words:

\"It is necessary only for the good man to do nothing for evil to triumph.\"

I am sorry that the First Minister laughs at that, that he does not regard institutionalised discrimination of any description as unacceptable and that he does not want to join us in moving forward.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2228E151P202C714297", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McCabe, Tom", "ID": 2228, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Tom McCabe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Parliament (Mr Tom McCabe): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 183.0, "ContributionID": 714297, "EditedText": "I, too, think that this is a very important debate. The tone in which it is conducted is critical to the standing of the Parliament. It is disappointing that Mike Russell has set the tone by quoting a private conversation. Furthermore, he is condemned by his own words. Hugh Henry was right to point out that when people were encouraged to sign the motion, it was against the background of some important statements made by Mike Russell. He acknowledged that this Parliament cannot change the act. He said that the motion was not a challenge to Westminster. Yet as soon as he rises to his feet, he asks for a statement about when this Parliament will move forward—although it has no power to change the act. That is unfortunate in relation to setting the proper tone for a debate as serious as this.", "EditedTextHTML": "I, too, think that this is a very important debate. The tone in which it is conducted is critical to the standing of the Parliament. It is disappointing that Mike Russell has set the tone by quoting a private conversation. Furthermore, he is condemned by his own words.

Hugh Henry was right to point out that when people were encouraged to sign the motion, it was against the background of some important statements made by Mike Russell. He acknowledged that this Parliament cannot change the act. He said that the motion was not a challenge to Westminster. Yet as soon as he rises to his feet, he asks for a statement about when this Parliament will move forward—although it has no power to change the act. That is unfortunate in relation to setting the proper tone for a debate as serious as this.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1821E295P538C714300", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Mrs Margaret", "ID": 1821, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Moray" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Margaret Ewing (Moray) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 189.0, "ContributionID": 714300, "EditedText": "Everyone in the Parliament is opposed to discrimination in any form. I want to ask Mr McCabe about the role of the joint committees that have been much trumpeted by Gordon Brown. Would it be helpful to joint committee members from this Parliament to have the vote of the Parliament on ending this aspect of discrimination to back them up? At least it would mark a staging point on the route to eliminating this discriminatory legislation.", "EditedTextHTML": "Everyone in the Parliament is opposed to discrimination in any form. I want to ask Mr McCabe about the role of the joint committees that have been much trumpeted by Gordon Brown. Would it be helpful to joint committee members from this Parliament to have the vote of the Parliament on ending this aspect of discrimination to back them up? At least it would mark a staging point on the route to eliminating this discriminatory legislation.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C714302", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Annabel Goldie (West of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 193.0, "ContributionID": 714302, "EditedText": "Does the minister recall that the Conservative party had occasion to make that very point to the Executive, when it happened that approximately 38 minutes were devoted to a debate on homelessness, followed the next day by a debate of three hours on the millennium bug? I am pleased that the Executive acknowledged that problem and accorded more time for the subsequent debate on social justice.", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the minister recall that the Conservative party had occasion to make that very point to the Executive, when it happened that approximately 38 minutes were devoted to a debate on homelessness, followed the next day by a debate of three hours on the millennium bug? I am pleased that the Executive acknowledged that problem and accorded more time for the subsequent debate on social justice.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2228E151P202C714309", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McCabe, Tom", "ID": 2228, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Tom McCabe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McCabe: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 207.0, "ContributionID": 714309, "EditedText": "That leads to an interesting question. Would Mr Neil have preferred that Westminster had spent a year on the Act of Settlement rather than establishing this Parliament? I am in the privileged position of representing the town and streets in which I was raised. It is a good place with good people—proud people who try hard and work harder. Those good people are still there, but they know that the place has changed. Even though Scotland has the lowest unemployment count for 23 years, there remain many jobless households, problems of social deprivation and the devastation of drugs. Our first, and probably overwhelming, priority should be to give people the opportunity of work that is worth while, freedom to move safely through their communities and the chance to see their children growing up to maturity, facing the future with confidence. I believe that all members recognise those as the overwhelming priorities for every community in Scotland and for every person whatever his or her religious or economic background. I hope that we can avoid the politics of gesture in this debate. We are drawing attention to a problem that offends many; I do not want to belittle that fact in any way or write it down. There are aspects of the Act of Settlement that echo from the distant past and stand uneasily with our modern and more enlightened values. I move the amendment to underline the determination of this coalition Administration to tackle discrimination in all its forms, priority by priority. All members will agree on the importance of today's debate. We should also recognise the grinding realities of discrimination—economic and social—that are still to be banished from many communities throughout Scotland. I move amendment S1M-117.1, to insert at end:\"recognises that amendment or repeal raises complex constitutional issues, and that this is a matter reserved to UK Parliament.\"", "EditedTextHTML": "That leads to an interesting question. Would Mr Neil have preferred that Westminster had spent a year on the Act of Settlement rather than establishing this Parliament?

I am in the privileged position of representing the town and streets in which I was raised. It is a good place with good people—proud people who try hard and work harder. Those good people are still there, but they know that the place has changed. Even though Scotland has the lowest unemployment count for 23 years, there remain many jobless households, problems of social deprivation and the devastation of drugs. Our first, and probably overwhelming, priority should be to give people the opportunity of work that is worth while, freedom to move safely through their

communities and the chance to see their children growing up to maturity, facing the future with confidence.

I believe that all members recognise those as the overwhelming priorities for every community in Scotland and for every person whatever his or her religious or economic background. I hope that we can avoid the politics of gesture in this debate. We are drawing attention to a problem that offends many; I do not want to belittle that fact in any way or write it down. There are aspects of the Act of Settlement that echo from the distant past and stand uneasily with our modern and more enlightened values.

I move the amendment to underline the determination of this coalition Administration to tackle discrimination in all its forms, priority by priority. All members will agree on the importance of today's debate. We should also recognise the grinding realities of discrimination—economic and social—that are still to be banished from many communities throughout Scotland.

I move amendment S1M-117.1, to insert at end:

\"recognises that amendment or repeal raises complex constitutional issues, and that this is a matter reserved to UK Parliament.\"

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C714310", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 209.0, "ContributionID": 714310, "EditedText": "I propose that speeches in the open debate be limited to five minutes. That does not mean that all members must take five minutes; that is the maximum that is allowed.", "EditedTextHTML": "I propose that speeches in the open debate be limited to five minutes. That does not mean that all members must take five minutes; that is the maximum that is allowed.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2056E57P84C714313", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James", "ID": 2056, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "James Douglas-Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Lord James Douglas-Hamilton: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 216.0, "ContributionID": 714313, "EditedText": "Over the past 300 years, nothing has precluded any party— including the Labour party, when it was in government—from addressing this issue. I do not recollect its coming before me during the 10 years I was in the Government. It has arisen this year as a result of wholesale constitutional reform and the approaching millennium. The important issue is whether there should be legislation that blatantly discriminates against a Christian religion. The subject is particularly relevant as we live in a multifaith community. In the context of the millennium, it is intended to recognise and appreciate the contribution of all faiths and communities in our country. The heir to the throne can accede if he marries a Muslim, a Buddhist, a scientologist, a Moonie, an atheist or a sun-worshipper, but not if he marries a Roman Catholic. Leaving such a stigma in place when no other religion or faith is singled out is grossly unfair. When Mr Mike Russell lodged his motion, I wrote to the Prime Minister, whose response offered no defence or justification for the present legislation. He had \"no plans\" to do anything about the situation and said—as the amendment says— that reforming the law would be complex. That is absolutely right. Similarly, it was complex to reform the House of Lords, but that did not prove an insurmountable problem. The complexity can be exaggerated. I recommend the acceptance of Mr Tom McCabe's amendment in view of the positive remarks that he associated with it. It occurred to me that it would be helpful to have a consultation exercise that involved all the faiths and Churches in Scotland. The responses, which are in the parliamentary information centre and the chamber office, indicate widespread consensus against this kind of religious discrimination. Out of nine responses, eight were clearly opposed to discrimination and the ninth was conscious of the complexity of the matter. Cardinal Winning made the valid point that \"Royal Commissions are normally established to tackle some thorny issue on which there is no wide consensus. The campaign to end the Act of Settlement commands broad public and political support. Indeed, I can think of no major public figure prepared to defend the language of intolerance contained in the offensive clauses. What is now needed is a clear signal that this issue will be tackled, and tackled soon.\" I cannot but feel the force of that argument.My own Church, the Church of Scotland, stated in a letter: \"It is the view of the Legal Questions Committee that the discriminatory provisions of the Act of Settlement have no place in our contemporary society. The Act was a product of its times and those times are not our times. Thankfully, we live in a climate of ecumenical friendship and co-operation unknown at the beginning of the 18th century.\" In his letter, the cardinal put the case even more strongly. He wrote: \"It has been said that the Act of Settlement does not impinge on the daily lives of Catholics, and that is true.\" That view has been echoed by Tom McCabe. However, the cardinal continued: \"Nevertheless its continued presence on the statute books is an offensive reminder to the whole Catholic community of a mentality which has no place in modern Britain.\" His message to the Parliament can be summed up in one sentence: \"I wish all of you success in rooting out an offensive, embarrassing and anachronistic blot on our escutcheon.\" I must report that the Church of Scotland and the Roman Catholic Church have the support of the Hindu and Muslim faiths in that view. A letter from the Hindu Mandir states: \"Kindly note our view is that we as Hindus do not discriminate against anyone.\" Mr Bashir Mann of the Muslim community wrote:\"The Muslim Religion is against all kinds of discrimination on account of race colour or creed. We would therefore support an amendment to the Act, that would remove this flagrant statutory discrimination against the Roman Catholic faith.\" As it happens, Mr Bashir Mann is a Labour councillor. I mention that because this should not be a party political matter. When the subject came up in the House of Lords recently, Lord St John of Fawsley, who opposed Michael Forsyth's address, said that \"such a major matter is best set in train—and should be set in train—by the Government and Opposition parties officially acting together\".—Official Report, House of Lords, 2 December 1999; Vol 607, c 918. I hope that that will happen.This debate is a continuation of the debate in 1829 on the subject of Roman Catholic emancipation—enabling Roman Catholics to become members of Parliament. The Prime Minister at the time was the Duke of Wellington, who defeated Napoleon at Waterloo. He was on the side of emancipation. Lord Winchilsea attacked Wellington in language that was so offensive that it would not be tolerated today. He implied that Wellington was being disloyal to his country. The Prime Minister immediately challenged Winchilsea to a duel—the only time, as far as I can recall, that a Prime Minister has had to defend his honour in that way. On 21 March 1829, not long after first light, the Prime Minister and Winchilsea met on Battersea fields with their seconds. When the moment to shoot arrived, the Prime Minister took careful aim and fired wide. Winchilsea, not wishing to kill his Prime Minister, fired in the air. He then wrote a grovelling letter of apology. A few days later, on 2 April, Wellington—in the face of the stiffest opposition in the House of Lords—spoke for Roman Catholic emancipation and made the best speech of his life. He said: \"I am one of those who have probably passed a longer period of my life engaged in war than most men, and principally in civil war; and I must say this, that if I could avoid by any sacrifice whatever even one month of civil war in the country to which I was attached, I would sacrifice my life in order to do it.\" When the vote came, he obtained a majority of 105—almost two thirds in favour. I hope that today our majority will be even more convincing. I hope that it will persuade the Prime Minister to put reform of the Act of Settlement firmly on the agenda. If the Duke of Wellington— who was, if I may say, even more right-wing than Mr Tony Blair, which is saying quite a lot—was prepared to take a stand on principle and bring in progressive reform, surely it is not too much to hope that our Prime Minister can show the same kind of moral courage. The basic truth that was applicable in 1829 and remains so today is that a substantial proportion of our countrymen and countrywomen are of Roman Catholic origin. There are some 800,000 Scots of Roman Catholic origin, and they deserve better than to have outdated legislation, some 300 years old, in force discriminating against them. Only a few years ago, in 1974, there had to be legislation to confirm that a Roman Catholic could be Lord Chancellor. The Act of Settlement and its corresponding Scottish provisions are, as the First Minister has described them, a \"legacy from the past\". However, as well as being a very unwelcome legacy from the past, it constitutes what Michael Forsyth called the British constitution's \"grubby little secret\". The Equal Opportunities Committee of this Parliament calls it an \"anachronistic anomaly\", and the cardinal has described it as an \"insult to all Catholics\". It is neither in keeping with the spirit of the times nor consistent with the social inclusion that we wish to celebrate in the year of the millennium. Our vote today should serve as a signal that blatant and hurtful legislation discriminating against a Christian religion is not acceptable, just as discrimination against a race or ethnic community is not acceptable. Today we have the opportunity to give an example to Britain, by recommending that such discrimination is an offensive anachronism that should be swept away. I commend the motion to the Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "Over the past 300 years, nothing has precluded any party— including the Labour party, when it was in government—from addressing this issue. I do not recollect its coming before me during the 10 years I was in the Government. It has arisen this year as a result of wholesale constitutional reform and the approaching millennium.

The important issue is whether there should be legislation that blatantly discriminates against a Christian religion. The subject is particularly relevant as we live in a multifaith community. In the context of the millennium, it is intended to recognise and appreciate the contribution of all faiths and communities in our country. The heir to the throne can accede if he marries a Muslim, a Buddhist, a scientologist, a Moonie, an atheist or a sun-worshipper, but not if he marries a Roman Catholic. Leaving such a stigma in place when no other religion or faith is singled out is grossly unfair.

When Mr Mike Russell lodged his motion, I wrote to the Prime Minister, whose response offered no defence or justification for the present legislation. He had \"no plans\" to do anything about the situation and said—as the amendment says— that reforming the law would be complex. That is absolutely right. Similarly, it was complex to reform the House of Lords, but that did not prove an insurmountable problem. The complexity can be exaggerated. I recommend the acceptance of Mr Tom McCabe's amendment in view of the positive remarks that he associated with it.

It occurred to me that it would be helpful to have a consultation exercise that involved all the faiths and Churches in Scotland. The responses, which are in the parliamentary information centre and the chamber office, indicate widespread consensus against this kind of religious discrimination. Out of nine responses, eight were clearly opposed to discrimination and the ninth was conscious of the complexity of the matter. Cardinal Winning made the valid point that

\"Royal Commissions are normally established to tackle some thorny issue on which there is no wide consensus. The campaign to end the Act of Settlement commands broad public and political support. Indeed, I can think of no major public figure prepared to defend the language of intolerance contained in the offensive clauses. What is now needed is a clear signal that this issue will be tackled, and tackled soon.\"

I cannot but feel the force of that argument.

My own Church, the Church of Scotland, stated in a letter:

\"It is the view of the Legal Questions Committee that the discriminatory provisions of the Act of Settlement have no place in our contemporary society. The Act was a product of its times and those times are not our times. Thankfully, we live in a climate of ecumenical friendship and co-operation unknown at the beginning of the 18th century.\"

In his letter, the cardinal put the case even more strongly. He wrote:

\"It has been said that the Act of Settlement does not impinge on the daily lives of Catholics, and that is true.\"

That view has been echoed by Tom McCabe. However, the cardinal continued:

\"Nevertheless its continued presence on the statute books is an offensive reminder to the whole Catholic community of a mentality which has no place in modern Britain.\"

His message to the Parliament can be summed up in one sentence:

\"I wish all of you success in rooting out an offensive, embarrassing and anachronistic blot on our escutcheon.\"

I must report that the Church of Scotland and the Roman Catholic Church have the support of the Hindu and Muslim faiths in that view. A letter from the Hindu Mandir states:

\"Kindly note our view is that we as Hindus do not discriminate against anyone.\"

Mr Bashir Mann of the Muslim community wrote:

\"The Muslim Religion is against all kinds of discrimination on account of race colour or creed. We would therefore support an amendment to the Act, that would remove this flagrant statutory discrimination against the Roman Catholic faith.\"

As it happens, Mr Bashir Mann is a Labour councillor. I mention that because this should not be a party political matter. When the subject came up in the House of Lords recently, Lord St John of Fawsley, who opposed Michael Forsyth's address, said that

\"such a major matter is best set in train—and should be set in train—by the Government and Opposition parties officially acting together\".—[Official Report, House of Lords, 2 December 1999; Vol 607, c 918.]

I hope that that will happen.

This debate is a continuation of the debate in 1829 on the subject of Roman Catholic emancipation—enabling Roman Catholics to become members of Parliament. The Prime Minister at the time was the Duke of Wellington, who defeated Napoleon at Waterloo. He was on the side of emancipation. Lord Winchilsea attacked Wellington in language that was so offensive that it would not be tolerated today. He implied that Wellington was being disloyal to his country. The Prime Minister immediately challenged Winchilsea to a duel—the only time, as far as I can recall, that a Prime Minister has had to defend his honour in that way. On 21 March 1829, not long after first light, the Prime Minister and Winchilsea met on Battersea fields with their seconds. When the moment to shoot arrived, the Prime Minister took careful aim and fired wide. Winchilsea, not wishing to kill his Prime Minister, fired in the air. He then wrote a grovelling letter of apology.

A few days later, on 2 April, Wellington—in the face of the stiffest opposition in the House of Lords—spoke for Roman Catholic emancipation and made the best speech of his life. He said:

\"I am one of those who have probably passed a longer period of my life engaged in war than most men, and principally in civil war; and I must say this, that if I could avoid by any sacrifice whatever even one month of civil war in the country to which I was attached, I would sacrifice my life in order to do it.\"

When the vote came, he obtained a majority of 105—almost two thirds in favour.

I hope that today our majority will be even more convincing. I hope that it will persuade the Prime Minister to put reform of the Act of Settlement firmly on the agenda. If the Duke of Wellington— who was, if I may say, even more right-wing than Mr Tony Blair, which is saying quite a lot—was prepared to take a stand on principle and bring in progressive reform, surely it is not too much to hope that our Prime Minister can show the same kind of moral courage.

The basic truth that was applicable in 1829 and remains so today is that a substantial proportion of our countrymen and countrywomen are of Roman Catholic origin. There are some 800,000 Scots of Roman Catholic origin, and they deserve better than to have outdated legislation, some 300 years old, in force discriminating against them. Only a few years ago, in 1974, there had to be legislation to confirm that a Roman Catholic could be Lord Chancellor.

The Act of Settlement and its corresponding Scottish provisions are, as the First Minister has described them, a \"legacy from the past\". However, as well as being a very unwelcome legacy from the past, it constitutes what Michael Forsyth called the British constitution's \"grubby little secret\". The Equal Opportunities Committee of this Parliament calls it an \"anachronistic anomaly\", and the cardinal has described it as an \"insult to all Catholics\". It is neither in keeping with the spirit of the times nor consistent with the social inclusion that we wish to celebrate in the year of the millennium.

Our vote today should serve as a signal that blatant and hurtful legislation discriminating against a Christian religion is not acceptable, just as discrimination against a race or ethnic community is not acceptable. Today we have the opportunity to give an example to Britain, by recommending that such discrimination is an offensive anachronism that should be swept away. I commend the motion to the Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1973E119P326C714314", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gorrie, Donald", "ID": 1973, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Donald Gorrie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Donald Gorrie (Central Scotland) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 219.0, "ContributionID": 714314, "EditedText": "I am very happy to follow Lord James Douglas- Hamilton's excellent speech. He did not tell us about another famous duel of the same period, between Canning and Castlereagh, who were two leading members of the same Government. Nowadays we are not courageous enough to shoot at each other, so leading politicians use spin-doctors to stab each other in the back. I think that we should stop that practice. This is not a party issue. I am not speaking on behalf of the Liberal Democrats and have no idea what the views of individual Liberal Democrats are. We need to evolve better ways of tackling subjects such as this. Although there is a strong all-party view on this, the fact that it has been pushed by a leading member of the SNP has made it a sort of party issue. I am sure that that was not intended, but that is how the matter has been interpreted. The previous debate today showed that we have got things seriously wrong. Whatever the rights and wrongs of the matter, we must conduct our affairs better. Parliament has to take control. There should be opportunities for parliamentary, rather than party, motions. However, I am very happy to support this motion. If we can get away from pots and kettles calling each other black, we will get on better. Also, we should not rehearse history, as it is very dangerous to do so. For example, at different times the Labour party and the SNP have been virulently against the European Union. Although they have changed, it would be a waste of time to cast that in their teeth. People change. The most effective apostle was St Paul—he changed. It is pathetic to argue on the basis that somebody had the chance to do something and did not take it. For God's sake, let us get away from that kind of argument. I support the Executive amendment. I do not think that there is any necessity for the Executive to put forward an amendment, and I strongly contest the idea that the Executive has to have a view on everything—that is rubbish. However, this amendment is sensible and is not hostile to the motion. It had been rumoured that there was to be an amendment that was hostile to the motion. The Executive deserves due credit for the fact that its amendment is constructive, as this is a complicated issue. It is much more complicated for the English. There are many very decent English people who take the matter of the head of the Church of England very seriously and for whom it is a big deal. I find it stupid that when the Queen's aeroplane crosses the Solway as she comes up to Balmoral or Holyrood, she has to remember that she is no longer the head of the Church of England, but is now a member of the Church of Scotland. She carries that off remarkably well, but it is a ludicrous position. One must always recognise other people's serious problems, and the English have a serious problem on this, which we have to address. We have advanced in other respects. Personally, I find prayers at Westminster extremely abhorrent, as they are all about exclusiveness. They are always conducted by the same worthy Church of England gentleman, who prays in exactly the same terms. They hark back to the period when officers in the army had to be members of the Church of England and one could not get a university education in England unless one was a member of the Church of England. We have advanced a bit, but one still cannot be king or queen unless one is a member of the Church of England, and that is ridiculous. It may be only symbolic, and it may be fair to say that this Parliament cannot do anything about it. However, we can send a signal to people in our country that we are not discriminatory. On the subject of symbols—because I know that people often read more into things than is really the case—I did not attend the Labour party's party because I was totally exhausted and was trying to fight off a bug. My absence bore no political content at all. I am happy to vote for sensible motions from any quarter and to eat and drink with people of any political party.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am very happy to follow Lord James Douglas- Hamilton's excellent speech. He did not tell us

about another famous duel of the same period, between Canning and Castlereagh, who were two leading members of the same Government. Nowadays we are not courageous enough to shoot at each other, so leading politicians use spin-doctors to stab each other in the back. I think that we should stop that practice.

This is not a party issue. I am not speaking on behalf of the Liberal Democrats and have no idea what the views of individual Liberal Democrats are. We need to evolve better ways of tackling subjects such as this. Although there is a strong all-party view on this, the fact that it has been pushed by a leading member of the SNP has made it a sort of party issue. I am sure that that was not intended, but that is how the matter has been interpreted. The previous debate today showed that we have got things seriously wrong. Whatever the rights and wrongs of the matter, we must conduct our affairs better. Parliament has to take control. There should be opportunities for parliamentary, rather than party, motions.

However, I am very happy to support this motion. If we can get away from pots and kettles calling each other black, we will get on better. Also, we should not rehearse history, as it is very dangerous to do so. For example, at different times the Labour party and the SNP have been virulently against the European Union. Although they have changed, it would be a waste of time to cast that in their teeth. People change. The most effective apostle was St Paul—he changed. It is pathetic to argue on the basis that somebody had the chance to do something and did not take it. For God's sake, let us get away from that kind of argument.

I support the Executive amendment. I do not think that there is any necessity for the Executive to put forward an amendment, and I strongly contest the idea that the Executive has to have a view on everything—that is rubbish. However, this amendment is sensible and is not hostile to the motion. It had been rumoured that there was to be an amendment that was hostile to the motion.

The Executive deserves due credit for the fact that its amendment is constructive, as this is a complicated issue. It is much more complicated for the English. There are many very decent English people who take the matter of the head of the Church of England very seriously and for whom it is a big deal. I find it stupid that when the Queen's aeroplane crosses the Solway as she comes up to Balmoral or Holyrood, she has to remember that she is no longer the head of the Church of England, but is now a member of the Church of Scotland. She carries that off remarkably well, but it is a ludicrous position. One must always recognise other people's serious problems, and the English have a serious problem on this, which we have to address.

We have advanced in other respects. Personally, I find prayers at Westminster extremely abhorrent, as they are all about exclusiveness. They are always conducted by the same worthy Church of England gentleman, who prays in exactly the same terms. They hark back to the period when officers in the army had to be members of the Church of England and one could not get a university education in England unless one was a member of the Church of England. We have advanced a bit, but one still cannot be king or queen unless one is a member of the Church of England, and that is ridiculous. It may be only symbolic, and it may be fair to say that this Parliament cannot do anything about it. However, we can send a signal to people in our country that we are not discriminatory.

On the subject of symbols—because I know that people often read more into things than is really the case—I did not attend the Labour party's party because I was totally exhausted and was trying to fight off a bug. My absence bore no political content at all. I am happy to vote for sensible motions from any quarter and to eat and drink with people of any political party.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C714317", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 226.0, "ContributionID": 714317, "EditedText": "During my tenure of the SNP leadership, I have spoken about the Act of Settlement many times, and it has caused controversy many times. The matter was indeed included in the SNP's election document, \"Citizens not Subjects\", which I was proud to introduce during the election campaign.", "EditedTextHTML": "During my tenure of the SNP leadership, I have spoken about the Act of Settlement many times, and it has caused controversy many times. The matter was indeed included in the SNP's election document, \"Citizens not Subjects\", which I was proud to introduce during the election campaign.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2134E160P198C714320", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McMahon, Michael", "ID": 2134, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton North and Bellshill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael McMahon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McMahon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 232.0, "ContributionID": 714320, "EditedText": "I will not give way. I would like to make progress with my speech. We must ask why we are debating this matter, when the Parliament had previously made its position clear. A majority of members, including myself, have already signed a motion condemning the Act of Settlement. The view of Parliament has been stated clearly. When I originally approached Mike Russell on this issue to seek out his motive in raising the subject, he promised that, if a simple majority of MSPs signed the motion, it would act as a statement of this Parliament. No debate, he said, would be required. In spite of Mr Russell's assurances that it was not his aim, his party's apparent desire to exploit any populist issue appears to supersede the need to preserve Mr Russell's integrity. If members doubt that this matter comes down to politics, I refer them to an article in the Scottish Catholic Observer of Friday 3 December. The writer, clearly puzzled at the emergence of this subject as a political issue, turned to Dr Peter Lynch of the University of Stirling for an answer. He argued: \"This is a great wedge issue for the SNP . . . Either they lever the Scottish Catholic vote away from Labour or they push a wedge between Labour in England and Scotland.\" Dr Lynch hit the nail on the head. I support the journalist's conclusion that it is because of politics that this \"Parliament is debating a matter over which it cannot legislate, while Catholics are being courted over an issue on which they mostly couldn't care less\". As the reporter on the Equal Opportunities Committee looking at this issue, I spoke to the Catholic Church. I agree with it when it said: \"we think this Act is silly and it should be changed, but we recognise that the Government has other legislative priorities at the moment.\" As a Catholic, I concur when it states:\"we are not going to be manipulated by any one political party on this issue.\" The Equal Opportunities Committee agreed that it was for our representatives at Westminster to decide what is more important. It is for them to decide whether the priority should be health, education, jobs and poverty, or amending some outdated piece of legislation to benefit a select few who are, or aspire to be, members of the royal family. In putting forward its amendment, I am confident that the Executive seeks no party advantage. We are a coalition, and no single party in the partnership gains from the amendment, nor do any of the Opposition parties lose. All we seek is an honest debate on the real issues facing Scotland's Catholics. I have spoken to representatives of the Catholic Church, and believe that that is also its view. I urge members to support the Executive's amendment.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will not give way. I would like to make progress with my speech.

We must ask why we are debating this matter, when the Parliament had previously made its position clear. A majority of members, including myself, have already signed a motion condemning the Act of Settlement. The view of Parliament has been stated clearly. When I originally approached Mike Russell on this issue to seek out his motive in raising the subject, he promised that, if a simple majority of MSPs signed the motion, it would act as a statement of this Parliament. No debate, he said, would be required. In spite of Mr Russell's assurances that it was not his aim, his party's apparent desire to exploit any populist issue appears to supersede the need to preserve Mr Russell's integrity.

If members doubt that this matter comes down to politics, I refer them to an article in the Scottish Catholic Observer of Friday 3 December. The writer, clearly puzzled at the emergence of this subject as a political issue, turned to Dr Peter Lynch of the University of Stirling for an answer. He argued:

\"This is a great wedge issue for the SNP . . . Either they lever the Scottish Catholic vote away from Labour or they push a wedge between Labour in England and Scotland.\"

Dr Lynch hit the nail on the head. I support the journalist's conclusion that it is because of politics that this

\"Parliament is debating a matter over which it cannot legislate, while Catholics are being courted over an issue on which they mostly couldn't care less\".

As the reporter on the Equal Opportunities Committee looking at this issue, I spoke to the Catholic Church. I agree with it when it said:

\"we think this Act is silly and it should be changed, but we recognise that the Government has other legislative priorities at the moment.\"

As a Catholic, I concur when it states:

\"we are not going to be manipulated by any one political party on this issue.\"

The Equal Opportunities Committee agreed that it was for our representatives at Westminster to decide what is more important. It is for them to decide whether the priority should be health, education, jobs and poverty, or amending some outdated piece of legislation to benefit a select few who are, or aspire to be, members of the royal family.

In putting forward its amendment, I am confident that the Executive seeks no party advantage. We are a coalition, and no single party in the partnership gains from the amendment, nor do any of the Opposition parties lose. All we seek is an honest debate on the real issues facing Scotland's Catholics. I have spoken to representatives of the Catholic Church, and believe that that is also its view.

I urge members to support the Executive's amendment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C714322", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan (Glasgow) (SSP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 238.0, "ContributionID": 714322, "EditedText": "Much of what has been said today is agreeable. Most members will have difficulty in finding issues on which there are fundamental differences. That is one of the reasons why some of the points are a wee bit contradictory. It has rightly been stated that discussing and passing this motion is a gesture. However, I recall Glasgow City Council, and other city councils across England and Wales, proudly conferring the freedom of the city on Nelson Mandela while he was incarcerated in Robben Island. That was an important gesture because it sent the message of our abhorrence and hatred of apartheid to the rest of the world. This discussion today is a gesture, but an important one. It sends out the message that this type of institutionalised discrimination is unacceptable as we move into the 21st century. I have no love for the royal family. Unfortunately, my amendment was not accepted. It would have given the democratic republicans among us the chance to vote for that today. I have no love for organised religion either. I am an irreconcilable atheist, but I respect the rights of those who wish to practise their own religion not to be discriminated against for taking that right to heart. From that point of view, it is important that the Parliament deals with this issue today, I hope unanimously. I hope that Mike Russell will accept the amendment because it is an addition rather than a deletion. The crux of what was said by Mike Russell, and which got most members to sign the motion, is still there. That is important. It is a bit disingenuous of some members to say that the reason that they signed the original e-mail communication, in relation to the motion that Mike Russell spoke about, was because it said that this would not be debated in Parliament and was not a challenge to Westminster. I hope that that is not sending out the message that \"We signed it because we hoped that it would not be debated. We signed it because we hoped that it would not mean anything.\" I hope that members signed it because they supported its principle. I hope that today we will finish this matter. I hope that we send a unanimous message from this Parliament to Westminster that it should change the Act of Settlement and that that will be a full stop. If this issue had not been brought before the Parliament today, it would have festered. It would have been raised in the Equal Opportunities Committee again, and would have led to the question of whether the Equal Opportunities Committee should have brought it to the Parliament. This debate means that the issue is finished with. I agree that this matter is way down the scale of priority of what we have to deal with in Scotland—I do not think that any member would disagree with that—but that does not mean that it is not important to deal with it. I hope that we make a unanimous decision today to send this to Westminster and send a clear, unequivocal message that the Act of Settlement should be changed. I hope that, in future, the precedent will be recognised that the Parliament must be allowed to discuss matters beyond, and will not be restricted to matters within, its legislative competence. I remember the Tories, in the dark days of the 1980s, trying to impose that particular restriction on local authorities throughout the country. I am glad to say that that did not work, nor will it work as far as the Parliament is concerned. I look forward to us discussing the idea of abolishing the monarchy itself, and to us moving towards a socialist republic, which is democratic to its core and enshrines equality in a written constitution and bill of rights, and which is made up of genuine citizens, not of subjects.", "EditedTextHTML": "Much of what has been said today is agreeable. Most members will have difficulty in finding issues on which there are fundamental differences. That is one of the reasons why some of the points are a wee bit contradictory.

It has rightly been stated that discussing and passing this motion is a gesture. However, I recall Glasgow City Council, and other city councils across England and Wales, proudly conferring the freedom of the city on Nelson Mandela while he was incarcerated in Robben Island. That was an important gesture because it sent the message of our abhorrence and hatred of apartheid to the rest of the world. This discussion today is a gesture, but an important one. It sends out the message that this type of institutionalised discrimination is unacceptable as we move into the 21st century.

I have no love for the royal family. Unfortunately, my amendment was not accepted. It would have given the democratic republicans among us the chance to vote for that today. I have no love for organised religion either. I am an irreconcilable atheist, but I respect the rights of those who wish to practise their own religion not to be discriminated against for taking that right to heart.

From that point of view, it is important that the Parliament deals with this issue today, I hope unanimously. I hope that Mike Russell will accept the amendment because it is an addition rather than a deletion. The crux of what was said by Mike Russell, and which got most members to sign the motion, is still there. That is important.

It is a bit disingenuous of some members to say that the reason that they signed the original e-mail communication, in relation to the motion that Mike Russell spoke about, was because it said that this would not be debated in Parliament and was not a challenge to Westminster. I hope that that is not sending out the message that \"We signed it because we hoped that it would not be debated. We signed it because we hoped that it would not mean anything.\" I hope that members signed it because they supported its principle.

I hope that today we will finish this matter. I hope that we send a unanimous message from this Parliament to Westminster that it should change the Act of Settlement and that that will be a full stop. If this issue had not been brought before the Parliament today, it would have festered. It would have been raised in the Equal Opportunities Committee again, and would have led to the question of whether the Equal Opportunities Committee should have brought it to the Parliament. This debate means that the issue is finished with.

I agree that this matter is way down the scale of priority of what we have to deal with in Scotland—I do not think that any member would disagree with that—but that does not mean that it is not important to deal with it. I hope that we make a unanimous decision today to send this to Westminster and send a clear, unequivocal message that the Act of Settlement should be changed.

I hope that, in future, the precedent will be recognised that the Parliament must be allowed to discuss matters beyond, and will not be restricted to matters within, its legislative competence. I remember the Tories, in the dark days of the 1980s, trying to impose that particular restriction on local authorities throughout the country. I am glad to say that that did not work, nor will it work as far as the Parliament is concerned.

I look forward to us discussing the idea of abolishing the monarchy itself, and to us moving towards a socialist republic, which is democratic to its core and enshrines equality in a written constitution and bill of rights, and which is made up of genuine citizens, not of subjects.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C714330", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 257.0, "ContributionID": 714330, "EditedText": "I think that we all know what the Labour line is, which has been distributed for this debate. I appeal to Mr Kerr to enter into the spirit of the debate and to recall the fact that Elaine Murray brought forward a motion on the war executed. That is a reserved matter, but it is also one of principle. I ask Mr Kerr to have some grace.", "EditedTextHTML": "I think that we all know what the Labour line is, which has been distributed for this debate. I appeal to Mr Kerr to enter into the spirit of the debate and to recall the fact that Elaine Murray brought forward a motion on the war executed. That is a reserved matter, but it is also one of principle. I ask Mr Kerr to have some grace.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1762E216P508C714333", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Elder, Dorothy-Grace", "ID": 1762, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 265.0, "ContributionID": 714333, "EditedText": "I find it rather sad that some people believe the worst of us, in our motives; it is simply not so. I have felt strongly about the Act of Settlement since I was at school. I am not a Catholic; it was a mixed school. When I first heard about this abysmal piece of legislation, rather like Richard Wilson, I could not believe it. Therefore, in those childhood days, I added tackling the Act of Settlement to my long list of things to do to save the world. Today, things have come full circle: I have the privilege of being in the Parliament and being able to chip in a bit to plead with people in Scotland to take a strong stance against the act. We have heard that issues of the day should be tackled first, but we are doing that all the time. However, issues of the day—emergencies and so forth—are always there. The suffragettes, when they went to Downing Street in 1914, were told that women's emancipation could not be dealt with because the first world war was breaking out. I remember that in the 1970s, when we were trying to tackle racial discrimination, we were told that many more important things were happening—they patted our heads and told us to go away. Fortunately, many of us continued to pursue the matter. It has been said that the Act of Settlement does not impinge on the daily lives of Catholics. However, we should listen to the words of Cardinal Winning—who knows an awful lot more about the matter than I do—when he says that the continued presence of the act on the statute book \"is an offensive reminder to the whole Catholic community of a mentality which has no place in modern Britain.\" He says to the members of the Parliament:\"I wish all of you success in rooting out an offensive, embarrassing and anachronistic blot on our escutcheon.\" Is the act of importance on the doorsteps? To my surprise, in the 1999 election, in the east end of Glasgow, in Baillieston, I was stopped on the street by people who asked me not about the euro—which I had mugged up on—but about the Act of Settlement. At one stage, I was up a ladder painting the front of my wee campaign rooms in an old butcher's shop in Baillieston main street, when a chap said, \"Can you come down a minute? I want to talk to you about the Act of Settlement. What are you going to do about it?\" That is absolutely true.", "EditedTextHTML": "I find it rather sad that some people believe the worst of us, in our motives; it is simply not so. I have felt strongly about the Act of Settlement since I was at school. I am not a Catholic; it was a mixed school. When I first heard about this abysmal piece of legislation, rather like Richard Wilson, I could not believe it. Therefore, in those childhood days, I added tackling the Act of Settlement to my long list of things to do to save the world. Today, things have come full circle: I have the privilege of being in the Parliament and being able to chip in a bit to plead with people in Scotland to take a strong stance against the act.

We have heard that issues of the day should be tackled first, but we are doing that all the time. However, issues of the day—emergencies and so forth—are always there. The suffragettes, when they went to Downing Street in 1914, were told that women's emancipation could not be dealt with because the first world war was breaking out.

I remember that in the 1970s, when we were trying to tackle racial discrimination, we were told that many more important things were happening—they patted our heads and told us to go away. Fortunately, many of us continued to pursue the matter.

It has been said that the Act of Settlement does not impinge on the daily lives of Catholics. However, we should listen to the words of Cardinal Winning—who knows an awful lot more about the matter than I do—when he says that the continued presence of the act on the statute book

\"is an offensive reminder to the whole Catholic community of a mentality which has no place in modern Britain.\"

He says to the members of the Parliament:

\"I wish all of you success in rooting out an offensive, embarrassing and anachronistic blot on our escutcheon.\"

Is the act of importance on the doorsteps? To my surprise, in the 1999 election, in the east end of Glasgow, in Baillieston, I was stopped on the street by people who asked me not about the euro—which I had mugged up on—but about the Act of Settlement. At one stage, I was up a ladder painting the front of my wee campaign rooms in an old butcher's shop in Baillieston main street, when a chap said, \"Can you come down a minute? I want to talk to you about the Act of Settlement. What are you going to do about it?\" That is absolutely true.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1996E124P211C714334", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAveety, Mr Frank", "ID": 1996, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Shettleston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Local Government", "SpeakerName": "Frank McAveety", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Local Government (Mr Frank McAveety): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 267.0, "ContributionID": 714334, "EditedText": "No way.", "EditedTextHTML": "No way.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1762E216P508C714335", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Elder, Dorothy-Grace", "ID": 1762, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 269.0, "ContributionID": 714335, "EditedText": "If Frank McAveety was in the east end and on the streets a bit more, he would know that. We must take into consideration the fact that the people who approached me were deeply hurt— their families were hurt. They were Catholics who felt that they were being treated as second rate by this icon of discrimination remaining on the statute book. In this day and age, that is simply not on. The act has cast a long shadow, from the early 18th century onwards—from a dark age, it has slithered into this one. Incredibly, that darkness will be cast upon the dawn of the 21st century unless the Scottish Parliament has the guts to move and shake opinion. It is an act of indecency—a degrading and shameful thing. From old, cruel Britannia, this is hardly cool Britannia. I am sure that all sides of the Parliament want to get rid of the act and to move into the 21st century, sloughing off the awfulness of the past. We must move forward together, away from the sheer wickedness that was allowed to thrive. In a spirit of decency, meeting the needs of a new millennium, I ask members to join us in moving against this blot on our land.", "EditedTextHTML": "If Frank McAveety was in the east end and on the streets a bit more, he would know that.

We must take into consideration the fact that the people who approached me were deeply hurt— their families were hurt. They were Catholics who felt that they were being treated as second rate by this icon of discrimination remaining on the statute book. In this day and age, that is simply not on.

The act has cast a long shadow, from the early 18th century onwards—from a dark age, it has slithered into this one. Incredibly, that darkness will be cast upon the dawn of the 21st century unless the Scottish Parliament has the guts to move and shake opinion. It is an act of indecency—a degrading and shameful thing. From old, cruel Britannia, this is hardly cool Britannia.

I am sure that all sides of the Parliament want to get rid of the act and to move into the 21st century, sloughing off the awfulness of the past. We must move forward together, away from the sheer wickedness that was allowed to thrive. In a spirit of decency, meeting the needs of a new millennium, I ask members to join us in moving against this blot on our land.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C714337", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 274.0, "ContributionID": 714337, "EditedText": "Mr Lloyd Quinan (West of Scotland) (SNP)rose—", "EditedTextHTML": "

Mr Lloyd Quinan (West of Scotland) (SNP)

rose—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2118E157P454C714341", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Quinan, Mr Lloyd", "ID": 2118, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lloyd Quinan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Lloyd Quinan (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 283.0, "ContributionID": 714341, "EditedText": "I thank Michael Russell for bringing forward the debate, and for giving up some of the Scottish National party's own debating time. It is commendable that we began this Scottish Parliament with our legislation being subject to the European convention on human rights. To all of those whom the Parliament represents—and, indeed, to all those whom we do not represent but with whom we deal—the ECHR provides and guarantees freedom of thought, conscience and religion under article 9; the prohibition of discrimination under article 14; and a prohibition of the abuse of rights under article 17. I would that Westminster had been founded on those principles. The provision of a written constitution and a bill of rights might well have guaranteed that our history did not burden our present and future with a relic of an institutional discrimination that was the product of a bygone age. However, it seems that of greater concern at that time was the maintenance of the ruling establishment, rather than the good governance of these islands, which were then termed the British Isles. The Act of Settlement incorporated the acts of union with Scotland and Ireland and was a guarantor of the hegemony that was begun under Henry VIII and was consolidated by the so-called glorious revolution of Mary and William. It passed into statute under Queen Anne in 1701. However, it is fundamentally wrong to allow shameful anachronisms of history to sully the future. This archaic and discriminatory act is entirely at odds with the fundamental political changes that are taking place within this group of islands. For example, the Northern Ireland Assembly agreement is specific; it guarantees such rights, safeguards and equality of opportunity under its human rights commission and legislation as \"the right to freedom and expression of religion\"and\"the right to equal opportunity in all social and economic activity regardless of class, creed, disability, gender or ethnicity\". Surely equal opportunity in social activity includes the right to marry without prejudice of employment opportunity, regardless of how gainful we might find that employment. The newly created equality commission has developed a clear formulation of the right not to be discriminated against and of the right to equality of opportunity in the public and private sectors. As the monarchy is both public and private sector, the Act of Settlement is clearly at odds with legislation in the present United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Some people will argue that the repeal of this outdated and discriminatory act will be complicated. There is no question about that. Any legislation that is at odds with the ECHR is a breach of the UK Government's own legislation. When Westminster commits itself to the ECHR in the autumn of next year, it will make the repeal a little more complex. However, the key question is not complexity of any repeal, but the political will to consign a discriminatory, divisive and illogical legal relic to the dustbin of history. If we genuinely want an inclusive society, we have to include everyone from the highest level to the lowest, without exception. No one in the chamber today would challenge the ECHR. Article 9 states: \"Freedom to manifest one's religion or beliefs shall be subject only to such limitations as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society in the interests of public safety, for the protection of public order, health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others\". Do we really believe that the Act of Settlement is necessary to protect public safety, public order or public health? Furthermore, I am sure that Labour members would not suggest that the act was necessary to protect our morals. The Act of Settlement is simply incompatible with the basic agreement on human rights in Europe, and the ECHR is perfectly clear on that point. It states: \"Nothing in this Convention may be interpreted as implying for any State, group or person any right to engage in any activity or perform any act aimed at the destruction of any of the rights and freedoms set forth herein or at their limitation to a greater extent than is provided for in the Convention.\" My message to those who argue about the complexity of abandoning the legislation is that they cannot hide behind that excuse. If they accept that abandoning this prejudicial and discriminatory act might not be a priority, is somehow too complex or impacts on too many other legislatures, they endorse this sorry piece of bigotry. Let us make a statement of equality. Let there be no second-class citizens. Let us go into the 21st century untarnished by this tawdry little remnant of three centuries ago and state that the discriminatory practices of the darker times in our history will no longer be tolerated. Please support the motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank Michael Russell for bringing forward the debate, and for giving up some of the Scottish National party's own debating time.

It is commendable that we began this Scottish Parliament with our legislation being subject to the European convention on human rights. To all of those whom the Parliament represents—and, indeed, to all those whom we do not represent but with whom we deal—the ECHR provides and guarantees freedom of thought, conscience and religion under article 9; the prohibition of discrimination under article 14; and a prohibition of the abuse of rights under article 17.

I would that Westminster had been founded on those principles. The provision of a written constitution and a bill of rights might well have guaranteed that our history did not burden our present and future with a relic of an institutional discrimination that was the product of a bygone age.

However, it seems that of greater concern at that time was the maintenance of the ruling establishment, rather than the good governance of these islands, which were then termed the British Isles. The Act of Settlement incorporated the acts of union with Scotland and Ireland and was a guarantor of the hegemony that was begun under Henry VIII and was consolidated by the so-called glorious revolution of Mary and William. It passed into statute under Queen Anne in 1701. However, it is fundamentally wrong to allow shameful anachronisms of history to sully the future.

This archaic and discriminatory act is entirely at odds with the fundamental political changes that are taking place within this group of islands. For example, the Northern Ireland Assembly agreement is specific; it guarantees such rights, safeguards and equality of opportunity under its human rights commission and legislation as

\"the right to freedom and expression of religion\"

and

\"the right to equal opportunity in all social and economic activity regardless of class, creed, disability, gender or ethnicity\".

Surely equal opportunity in social activity includes the right to marry without prejudice of employment opportunity, regardless of how gainful we might find that employment. The newly created equality commission has developed a clear formulation of the right not to be discriminated against and of the right to equality of opportunity in the public and private sectors. As the monarchy is both public and private sector, the Act of Settlement is clearly at odds with legislation in the present United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

Some people will argue that the repeal of this outdated and discriminatory act will be complicated. There is no question about that. Any legislation that is at odds with the ECHR is a breach of the UK Government's own legislation. When Westminster commits itself to the ECHR in the autumn of next year, it will make the repeal a little more complex. However, the key question is not complexity of any repeal, but the political will to consign a discriminatory, divisive and illogical legal relic to the dustbin of history.

If we genuinely want an inclusive society, we have to include everyone from the highest level to the lowest, without exception. No one in the chamber today would challenge the ECHR. Article 9 states:

\"Freedom to manifest one's religion or beliefs shall be subject only to such limitations as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society in the interests of public safety, for the protection of public order, health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others\".

Do we really believe that the Act of Settlement is necessary to protect public safety, public order or public health? Furthermore, I am sure that Labour members would not suggest that the act was necessary to protect our morals.

The Act of Settlement is simply incompatible with the basic agreement on human rights in Europe, and the ECHR is perfectly clear on that point. It states:

\"Nothing in this Convention may be interpreted as implying for any State, group or person any right to engage in any activity or perform any act aimed at the destruction of any of the rights and freedoms set forth herein or at their limitation to a greater extent than is provided for in the Convention.\"

My message to those who argue about the complexity of abandoning the legislation is that they cannot hide behind that excuse. If they accept that abandoning this prejudicial and discriminatory act might not be a priority, is somehow too complex or impacts on too many other legislatures, they endorse this sorry piece of bigotry.

Let us make a statement of equality. Let there be no second-class citizens. Let us go into the 21st century untarnished by this tawdry little remnant of three centuries ago and state that the discriminatory practices of the darker times in our history will no longer be tolerated. Please support the motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1837E108P186C714342", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mulligan, Mary", "ID": 1837, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Linlithgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Mulligan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Mary Mulligan (Linlithgow) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 286.0, "ContributionID": 714342, "EditedText": "UnlikeLloyd Quinan, I am unable to congratulate Mike Russell on bringing forward this morning's debate. Mike Russell's motion was fine as a members' business motion, although, as a Catholic, I did not see the issue as being at the top of my—or my constituents'—agenda. In fact, like many other members in the chamber, I wondered more about the relationship between the monarchy and the new Scottish Parliament. I wondered whether there even needed to be a relationship. However, the Scottish National party could not leave it at that. It had to waste the Parliament's time again, discussing issues in relation to which the Parliament has no power.", "EditedTextHTML": "Unlike

Lloyd Quinan, I am unable to congratulate Mike Russell on bringing forward this morning's debate. Mike Russell's motion was fine as a members' business motion, although, as a Catholic, I did not see the issue as being at the top of my—or my constituents'—agenda. In fact, like many other members in the chamber, I wondered more about the relationship between the monarchy and the new Scottish Parliament. I wondered whether there even needed to be a relationship. However, the Scottish National party could not leave it at that. It had to waste the Parliament's time again, discussing issues in relation to which the Parliament has no power.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1837E108P186C714344", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mulligan, Mary", "ID": 1837, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Linlithgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Mulligan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Mulligan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 290.0, "ContributionID": 714344, "EditedText": "I will come to that. Do not worry.I understand that the SNP is trying to make a point by using its debates to highlight issues for which power is retained at Westminster, but I believe that that is an unnecessary use of parliamentary time. More important, I believe that the people of Scotland will question why we are using our time to debate issues that are the responsibility of Westminster when there are plenty of other issues that we could debate, which would affect and improve the lives of many people in Scotland. I must make one point clear, however. I, my party, our partners in the coalition and—I believe—the majority of members in the Parliament are totally committed to equal opportunities. I totally reject discrimination on any grounds—gender, race, religion or sexual orientation. I believe that the Act of Settlement is wrong, but I have every confidence that our colleagues at Westminster will amend the act when time permits. That brings me to our colleagues who have had that opportunity, but who have not used it, of whom Lord James Douglas-Hamilton is one and Michael Forsyth is another. When Michael Forsyth was Secretary of State for Scotland, he never considered discussing the matter. Talk about conversion on the road to Damascus.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will come to that. Do not worry.

I understand that the SNP is trying to make a point by using its debates to highlight issues for which power is retained at Westminster, but I believe that that is an unnecessary use of parliamentary time. More important, I believe that the people of Scotland will question why we are using our time to debate issues that are the responsibility of Westminster when there are plenty of other issues that we could debate, which would affect and improve the lives of many people in Scotland.

I must make one point clear, however. I, my party, our partners in the coalition and—I believe—the majority of members in the Parliament are totally committed to equal opportunities. I totally reject discrimination on any grounds—gender, race, religion or sexual orientation. I believe that the Act of Settlement is wrong, but I have every confidence that our colleagues at Westminster will amend the act when time permits.

That brings me to our colleagues who have had that opportunity, but who have not used it, of whom Lord James Douglas-Hamilton is one and Michael Forsyth is another. When Michael Forsyth was Secretary of State for Scotland, he never considered discussing the matter. Talk about conversion on the road to Damascus.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1837E108P186C714346", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mulligan, Mary", "ID": 1837, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Linlithgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Mulligan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Mulligan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 294.0, "ContributionID": 714346, "EditedText": "No. That is a total cop-out.It might be difficult to believe, but I do not find Catholics queueing up at my surgery asking me to change the Act of Settlement so that they can become in-laws of the Duke of Edinburgh. One of the things that Catholics value highly is the sanctity of marriage, on which even the Queen has had to admit that her family does not have a distinguished track record.", "EditedTextHTML": "No. That is a total cop-out.

It might be difficult to believe, but I do not find Catholics queueing up at my surgery asking me to change the Act of Settlement so that they can become in-laws of the Duke of Edinburgh. One of the things that Catholics value highly is the sanctity of marriage, on which even the Queen has had to admit that her family does not have a distinguished track record.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1762E216P508C714347", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Elder, Dorothy-Grace", "ID": 1762, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 296.0, "ContributionID": 714347, "EditedText": "Will the member give way, please?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way, please?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1837E108P186C714348", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mulligan, Mary", "ID": 1837, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Linlithgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Mulligan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Mulligan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 298.0, "ContributionID": 714348, "EditedText": "I want to move on.", "EditedTextHTML": "I want to move on.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2029E47P167C714355", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Henry, Hugh", "ID": 2029, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Hugh Henry", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Hugh Henry: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 313.0, "ContributionID": 714355, "EditedText": "Will it deal with them?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will it deal with them?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C714356", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 315.0, "ContributionID": 714356, "EditedText": "It is in our every vessel and vein to deal with anyone, whether they are members of the SNP or the Labour party or anyone else, who is practising or preaching sectarianism, anti- Catholic or otherwise, or discrimination, anti-English or otherwise. We want a modern Scotland, a modern Britain, a modern Europe and a modern world in which the human rights of every individual are safeguarded. I speak as someone with republican sympathies, like my friend Roseanna Cunningham. The fact that someone is a member or prospective member of the royal family does not mean that they should have their human rights undermined. This is about the human rights not just of a potential Catholic spouse of a monarch, but of the monarch himself or herself. If the monarch is a Protestant and is not allowed to marry a Catholic, that is a denial of his or her human rights as well.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is in our every vessel and vein to deal with anyone, whether they are members of the SNP or the Labour party or anyone else, who is practising or preaching sectarianism, anti- Catholic or otherwise, or discrimination, anti-

English or otherwise. We want a modern Scotland, a modern Britain, a modern Europe and a modern world in which the human rights of every individual are safeguarded. I speak as someone with republican sympathies, like my friend Roseanna Cunningham.

The fact that someone is a member or prospective member of the royal family does not mean that they should have their human rights undermined. This is about the human rights not just of a potential Catholic spouse of a monarch, but of the monarch himself or herself. If the monarch is a Protestant and is not allowed to marry a Catholic, that is a denial of his or her human rights as well.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2134E160P198C714357", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McMahon, Michael", "ID": 2134, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton North and Bellshill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael McMahon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McMahon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 317.0, "ContributionID": 714357, "EditedText": "Just as I was corrected earlier, I hope that Alex Neil will accept this correction. The monarch is not denied the right to marry a Catholic; they are just not allowed to succeed to the throne if they do.", "EditedTextHTML": "Just as I was corrected earlier, I hope that Alex Neil will accept this correction. The monarch is not denied the right to marry a Catholic; they are just not allowed to succeed to the throne if they do.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C714361", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Davidson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 326.0, "ContributionID": 714361, "EditedText": "I appreciate that Mr Rumbles is here not as a party political clone but in his capacity as a human being. I am disappointed by those members who sought to bring party politics into the debate, which is not about whether the Scots want to talk about this issue or whether it is the biggest thing since sliced bread. A member has used his democratic right to bring a subject to this Parliament and we must use our democratic responsibility to deal with the motion in a level-headed way. We look to the future. On a party political point, Conservatives are not particularly keen on over- legislation and over-regulation. I do not want to get into the history of the issue because we are looking to make things better for next year and the next millennium. When we consider legislation, the people of Scotland expect us to ask, \"Is it any good? Is it any longer relevant? Should we just dispense with it? Does it interfere with people's rights?\" That is what this debate is about. I am not going to argue about the rights and wrongs of the legislation, but this Parliament has a responsibility to lead on issues, to pick up social concerns that matter to people in different ways and to air those concerns in this chamber on behalf of the people. If that sends a message down south to Westminster that Scots in general and those who have been sent to this chamber to speak on their behalf in particular should be listened to, perhaps we can open up the next stage of the debate. No one is asking for more than that. To echo Mike Rumbles, I believe that we need reassurance from the minister. I am happy with Mr McCabe's amendment, which sets the issue in its legislative context. However, I would like to think that the amendment amounts to a refinement of the principle in the SNP's motion. That principle should be progressed; the amendment should not be used as an attempt to halt the matter, allowing things, as has been said, to continue to fester. I want the Parliament to look forward and to open up Scottish society to opportunities for everyone to be themselves, to get jobs and to practise their beliefs in a way that does not impinge on other people. We cannot tolerate any situation in which a person is treated as a second- class citizen because of their race, colour, religion or gender. For those reasons, I support the SNP motion as an individual member—that should be our approach today. I thank Mike Russell for lodging the motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "I appreciate that Mr Rumbles is here not as a party political clone but in his capacity as a human being.

I am disappointed by those members who sought to bring party politics into the debate, which is not about whether the Scots want to talk about this issue or whether it is the biggest thing since sliced bread. A member has used his democratic right to bring a subject to this Parliament and we must use our democratic responsibility to deal with the motion in a level-headed way.

We look to the future. On a party political point, Conservatives are not particularly keen on over- legislation and over-regulation.

I do not want to get into the history of the issue because we are looking to make things better for next year and the next millennium. When we consider legislation, the people of Scotland expect us to ask, \"Is it any good? Is it any longer relevant? Should we just dispense with it? Does it interfere with people's rights?\" That is what this debate is about. I am not going to argue about the rights and wrongs of the legislation, but this Parliament has a responsibility to lead on issues, to pick up social concerns that matter to people in different ways and to air those concerns in this chamber on behalf of the people. If that sends a message down south to Westminster that Scots in general and those who have been sent to this chamber to speak on their behalf in particular should be listened to, perhaps we can open up the next stage of the debate. No one is asking for more than that.

To echo Mike Rumbles, I believe that we need reassurance from the minister. I am happy with Mr McCabe's amendment, which sets the issue in its legislative context. However, I would like to think that the amendment amounts to a refinement of the principle in the SNP's motion. That principle should be progressed; the amendment should not be used as an attempt to halt the matter, allowing things, as has been said, to continue to fester.

I want the Parliament to look forward and to open up Scottish society to opportunities for everyone to be themselves, to get jobs and to practise their beliefs in a way that does not impinge on other people. We cannot tolerate any situation in which a person is treated as a second- class citizen because of their race, colour, religion or gender.

For those reasons, I support the SNP motion as an individual member—that should be our approach today. I thank Mike Russell for lodging the motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C714362", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 328.0, "ContributionID": 714362, "EditedText": "Speeches should be limited to four minutes.", "EditedTextHTML": "Speeches should be limited to four minutes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2029E47P167C714368", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Henry, Hugh", "ID": 2029, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Hugh Henry", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Hugh Henry (Paisley South) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 342.0, "ContributionID": 714368, "EditedText": "I regret the comment that was made about me by Shona Robison. The question that I asked Alex Neil was whether the SNP would take action on the incidents that were mentioned by Mary Mulligan in the way that the Labour party took action on the specific incident to which she referred. I hope that there would be consistency in the SNP's approach. Colin Campbell said that, at one point, Edinburgh was the Athens of the north. Lloyd Quinan later talked in general terms about the darker times in our history. It is apposite that we are having this debate in this chamber, as it is less than 80 years since my Irish Catholic grandparents were told by people in this chamber that they should be deported from this country. It is to the credit of this Parliament that we have moved on.", "EditedTextHTML": "I regret the comment that was made about me by Shona Robison. The question that I asked Alex Neil was whether the SNP would take action on the incidents that were mentioned by Mary Mulligan in the way that the Labour party took action on the specific incident to which she referred. I hope that there would be consistency in the SNP's approach.

Colin Campbell said that, at one point, Edinburgh was the Athens of the north. Lloyd Quinan later talked in general terms about the darker times in our history. It is apposite that we are having this debate in this chamber, as it is less than 80 years since my Irish Catholic grandparents were told by people in this chamber that they should be deported from this country. It is to the credit of this Parliament that we have moved on.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C714375", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 356.0, "ContributionID": 714375, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2068E171P304C714378", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stone, Jamie", "ID": 2068, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie Stone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 363.0, "ContributionID": 714378, "EditedText": "Lloyd Quinan was extremely wise to mention the Irish situation. That is very pertinent to what we are discussing today. I endorse the comments of John McAllion. The more I think about this issue, the more complicated I realise it to be. In Belgium, King Baudouin had to abdicate for a day so that a bill on abortion could be signed. That problem might come our way, should a future monarch become a Catholic. To take a slightly ludicrous example, let us imagine that Dorothy-Grace Elder, who was in the press gallery a minute ago, wrote something offensive to Muslims and a jihad was declared against her. Would a monarch who had become a Muslim feel obliged to have a go at her? We all remember the sad situation of Lord Mackay and what happened in the Free Presbyterian Church. John put his finger on it when he said that this was about more than just changing a few acts of Parliament. For a kick-off, it would involve the disestablishment of the Church of England. Religious authority—how a member of a particular Church does or does not take commands—would be an issue, and the decision-making apparatus of the Crown, the royal assent, would need to be examined. Today's debate is a worthy one, but let us be honest and acknowledge that this issue is much more complicated than a few acts of Parliament. I hope that Westminster gets on with this, but let us not kid ourselves about the difficulties ahead.", "EditedTextHTML": "Lloyd Quinan was extremely wise to mention the Irish situation. That is very pertinent to what we are discussing today.

I endorse the comments of John McAllion. The more I think about this issue, the more complicated I realise it to be. In Belgium, King Baudouin had to abdicate for a day so that a bill on abortion could be signed. That problem might come our way, should a future monarch become a Catholic. To take a slightly ludicrous example, let us imagine that Dorothy-Grace Elder, who was in the press gallery a minute ago, wrote something offensive to Muslims and a jihad was declared against her. Would a monarch who had become a Muslim feel obliged to have a go at her? We all remember the sad situation of Lord Mackay and what happened in the Free Presbyterian Church.

John put his finger on it when he said that this was about more than just changing a few acts of Parliament. For a kick-off, it would involve the disestablishment of the Church of England. Religious authority—how a member of a particular Church does or does not take commands—would be an issue, and the decision-making apparatus of the Crown, the royal assent, would need to be examined.

Today's debate is a worthy one, but let us be honest and acknowledge that this issue is much more complicated than a few acts of Parliament. I hope that Westminster gets on with this, but let us not kid ourselves about the difficulties ahead.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C714381", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Annabel Goldie (West of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 371.0, "ContributionID": 714381, "EditedText": "I welcome this debate. I have been uneasy, perhaps, about the tone of one or two parts of it. Some fundamental elements have been obscured by more personal and, at times, parochial issues. I welcome the fact that Mr Russell lodged this motion. I entirely support the amendment. Quite simply, this issue is as simple or as complex as one chooses to make it. There are two inescapable elements: the monarchy and discrimination. I will make clear my standpoint. I am a deputy lieutenant and, as such, I both support and believe in the monarchy. I am also a member and elder of the Church of Scotland and, as such, I am wholly opposed to discrimination in any form, wherever it is found. On the question of why this issue has arisen now, Lord James Douglas-Hamilton rightly referred to devolution putting our whole constitutional process under the microscope. I do not agree with Mary Mulligan, as I think that the royal family has become more topical in the past 10 years. The constitutional settlement for Scotland has enabled an eye to be cast over the more intricate relationships that exist between Scotland and other elements of our constitution. It was curious that Mr McCabe just about managed to omit any reference to the monarchy in his speech. I wondered whether that reflected a 50 per cent appetite for all this. At least Mr Henry was more forthright: he dismissed the monarchy as an irrelevant institution. On the Executive's amendment, I wonder whether the difficulties are not being slightly exaggerated. It is indeed the case that seven or eight statutes would require repeal or amendment, and that, perhaps, the Church of England would have a more significant dilemma over this matter than any other religious institution. However, it is also the case that our devolution settlement involved us in a very considerable number of statutory repeals and amendments, so I cannot believe that this constitutional challenge would be insuperable. As Lord James said, reforming the House of Lords has proved to be within the management of the Government. I do not think that, in technical constitutional terms, this would be more challenging. It pleases me to say that I have no doubt that this Parliament has a role in this matter, and I do so genuinely. In the past six months, I have been taken by surprise by how important many significant institutions in Scotland regard this Parliament to be in relation to reserved matters. It has become clear that those institutions see this Parliament as a repository for opinion, and an increasingly influential player in that role. Therefore, I entirely support what Lord James said: it is important that this chamber sends out a message that is sensible, constructive and, above all else, contemporary with the feelings and mood of the Scottish people. If there is one thing that we can infer from this debate, it is that we are all opposed to religious discrimination, wherever it is to be found. If we can be unanimous in that message, it will do this chamber a lot of credit and will be a good advertisement for Scotland. I am conscious that the Act of Settlement as currently framed is, at best, divisive and, at worst, profoundly offensive. That is an unacceptable anachronism. I support Mr Russell's motion, and endorse the Government's amendment.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome this debate. I have been uneasy, perhaps, about the tone of one or two parts of it. Some fundamental elements have been obscured by more personal and, at times, parochial issues.

I welcome the fact that Mr Russell lodged this motion. I entirely support the amendment. Quite simply, this issue is as simple or as complex as one chooses to make it. There are two inescapable elements: the monarchy and discrimination. I will make clear my standpoint. I am a deputy lieutenant and, as such, I both support and believe in the monarchy. I am also a member and elder of the Church of Scotland and, as such, I am wholly opposed to discrimination in any form, wherever it is found.

On the question of why this issue has arisen now, Lord James Douglas-Hamilton rightly referred to devolution putting our whole constitutional process under the microscope. I do not agree with Mary Mulligan, as I think that the royal family has become more topical in the past 10 years. The constitutional settlement for Scotland has enabled an eye to be cast over the more intricate relationships that exist between Scotland and other elements of our constitution.

It was curious that Mr McCabe just about managed to omit any reference to the monarchy in his speech. I wondered whether that reflected a 50 per cent appetite for all this. At least Mr Henry was more forthright: he dismissed the monarchy as an irrelevant institution.

On the Executive's amendment, I wonder whether the difficulties are not being slightly exaggerated. It is indeed the case that seven or eight statutes would require repeal or amendment, and that, perhaps, the Church of England would have a more significant dilemma over this matter than any other religious institution. However, it is also the case that our devolution settlement involved us in a very considerable number of statutory repeals and amendments, so I cannot believe that this constitutional challenge would be insuperable. As Lord James said, reforming the House of Lords has proved to be within the management of the Government. I do not think that, in technical constitutional terms, this would be more challenging.

It pleases me to say that I have no doubt that this Parliament has a role in this matter, and I do so genuinely. In the past six months, I have been taken by surprise by how important many significant institutions in Scotland regard this Parliament to be in relation to reserved matters. It has become clear that those institutions see this Parliament as a repository for opinion, and an increasingly influential player in that role. Therefore, I entirely support what Lord James said: it is important that this chamber sends out a message that is sensible, constructive and, above all else, contemporary with the feelings and mood of the Scottish people.

If there is one thing that we can infer from this debate, it is that we are all opposed to religious discrimination, wherever it is to be found. If we can be unanimous in that message, it will do this chamber a lot of credit and will be a good advertisement for Scotland. I am conscious that the Act of Settlement as currently framed is, at best, divisive and, at worst, profoundly offensive. That is an unacceptable anachronism. I support Mr Russell's motion, and endorse the Government's amendment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C714383", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 376.0, "ContributionID": 714383, "EditedText": "There is a huge desire across all parties for the Parliament to speak with one voice on this issue. That is of great symbolic importance. The minister has heard the concerns of the SNP, the Liberals and the Tories that the Executive amendment, phrased in complexity, might be a euphemism for inaction. In the spirit of working together, will she confirm that she does not favour inaction on an issue that she has just said is of great symbolic importance?", "EditedTextHTML": "There is a huge desire across all parties for the Parliament to speak with one voice on this issue. That is of great symbolic importance. The minister has heard the concerns of the SNP, the Liberals and the Tories that the Executive amendment, phrased in complexity, might be a euphemism for inaction. In the spirit of working together, will she confirm that she does not favour inaction on an issue that she has just said is of great symbolic importance?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C714393", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Hampden Park", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27239, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 385.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 385.0, "ID": 27239, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Brian Monteith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 399.0, "ContributionID": 714393, "EditedText": "Does the minister agree that the directors of Queen's Park Football Club have displayed only too well their adherence to the amateur principle in their approach to the development? When he says that extra costs for the project have been agreed as a result of increased specifications, can he tell me who agreed and why? Who agreed to the additional works that were not part of the original project and which were not agreed with the cofunders, and why? Can he tell me who agreed to meet the accelerating costs of the Scottish cup final in May—not part of the original development time scale—and why? In answering those three questions, will the minister tell us to what extent there was any monitoring that might have picked up on those costly decisions? Given the amount of public money that has been put into this redevelopment project right from the beginning, and taking into account this rescue package, what does the minister think about the public taking an equity share in the stadium, which might allow a future flotation to recover some of the public funds and give the public a true stake in the national football stadium of Scotland?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the minister agree that the directors of Queen's Park Football Club have displayed only too well their adherence to the amateur principle in their approach to the development? When he says that extra costs for the project have been agreed as a result of increased specifications, can he tell me who agreed and why? Who agreed to the additional works that were not part of the original project and which were not agreed with the cofunders, and why? Can he tell me who agreed to meet the accelerating costs of the Scottish cup final in May—not part of the original development time scale—and why?

In answering those three questions, will the minister tell us to what extent there was any monitoring that might have picked up on those costly decisions?

Given the amount of public money that has been put into this redevelopment project right from the beginning, and taking into account this rescue package, what does the minister think about the public taking an equity share in the stadium, which might allow a future flotation to recover some of the public funds and give the public a true stake in the national football stadium of Scotland?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C714398", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Hampden Park", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27239, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 385.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 385.0, "ID": 27239, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Galbraith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 409.0, "ContributionID": 714398, "EditedText": "As I pointed out, the agreement with Queen's Park is that it is leasing the stadium to the SFA, which will pay the club an agreed amount under the lease arrangements. It will then be entirely up to the SFA to manage that. Who it will have on the board is still a matter for discussion between the SFA, ourselves and others.", "EditedTextHTML": "As I pointed out, the agreement with Queen's Park is that it is leasing the stadium to the SFA, which will pay the club an agreed amount under the lease arrangements. It will then be entirely up to the SFA to manage that. Who it will have on the board is still a matter for discussion between the SFA, ourselves and others.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1775E171P452C714399", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Hampden Park", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27239, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 385.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 385.0, "ID": 27239, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeod, Fiona", "ID": 1775, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona McLeod", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona McLeod (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 411.0, "ContributionID": 714399, "EditedText": "The minister has just stated that he was first aware of the problems when the Millennium Commission drew them to his attention in July, but that he was happy with the monitoring that was going on. Can he explain why the December 1998 accounts for Queen's Park Football Club did not alert him to any problems? How many times have he, his deputy, Rhona Brankin, and other ministers, been guests of the SFA at football matches? Were they guests during the period of negotiations for this rescue package that has put the SFA in the management position?", "EditedTextHTML": "The minister has just stated that he was first aware of the problems when the Millennium Commission drew them to his attention in July, but that he was happy with the monitoring that was going on. Can he explain why the December 1998 accounts for Queen's Park Football Club did not alert him to any problems? How many times have he, his deputy, Rhona Brankin, and other ministers, been guests of the SFA at football matches? Were they guests during the period of negotiations for this rescue package that has put the SFA in the management position?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C714405", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Hampden Park", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27239, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 385.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 385.0, "ID": 27239, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan (Falkirk West): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 423.0, "ContributionID": 714405, "EditedText": "Bearing in mind that many millions of pounds of public money, including lottery money, has gone into the Hampden project, will the minister ensure that the Royal Bank of Scotland is not allowed to hold the Scottish Executive or the SFA to ransom over the rental agreement or anything else? Furthermore, as Hampden is a national stadium, will he ensure that the national interest takes precedence over the interests of the incompetent bunglers who handed out 1,200 tickets for an international match at Hampden to a millionaire such as Sir Robert McAlpine when they could and should have gone to genuine Scottish football fans?", "EditedTextHTML": "Bearing in mind that many millions of pounds of public money, including lottery money, has gone into the Hampden project, will the minister ensure that the Royal Bank of Scotland is not allowed to hold the

Scottish Executive or the SFA to ransom over the rental agreement or anything else? Furthermore, as Hampden is a national stadium, will he ensure that the national interest takes precedence over the interests of the incompetent bunglers who handed out 1,200 tickets for an international match at Hampden to a millionaire such as Sir Robert McAlpine when they could and should have gone to genuine Scottish football fans?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C714408", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Hampden Park", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27239, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 385.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 385.0, "ID": 27239, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Galbraith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 429.0, "ContributionID": 714408, "EditedText": "As the Executive was not established until July this year, when people became aware of the deficit, it had almost no part in monitoring the project; sportscotland and previous Administrations have laid out their various monitoring mechanisms, which we will certainly want to review to find out whether anything could have been detected sooner.", "EditedTextHTML": "As the Executive was not established until July this year, when people became aware of the deficit, it had almost no part in monitoring the project; sportscotland and previous Administrations have laid out their various monitoring mechanisms, which we will certainly want to review to find out whether anything could have been detected sooner.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2044E178P334C714417", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Hampden Park", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27239, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 385.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 385.0, "ID": 27239, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jenkins, Ian", "ID": 2044, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ian Jenkins", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ian Jenkins (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 447.0, "ContributionID": 714417, "EditedText": "I congratulate the minister. I am happy that Queen's Park FC, which has a long tradition, will continue. I am happy that the stadium has been completed and I hope that it is a stadium of which we can be proud. I am also glad that everybody is now co-operating in trying to get a solution. However, given that the Executive and sportscotland have invested public money, does the minister recognise that questions will be asked about other aspects of football in Scotland? Does he agree that, as well as funding a national stadium, he must consider the plight of football clubs such as Dumbarton, at the grass roots, which should also be supported?", "EditedTextHTML": "I congratulate the minister. I am happy that Queen's Park FC, which has a long tradition, will continue. I am happy that the stadium has been completed and I hope that it is a stadium of which we can be proud. I am also glad that everybody is now co-operating in trying to get a solution. However, given that the Executive and sportscotland have invested public money, does the minister recognise that questions will be asked about other aspects of football in Scotland? Does he agree that, as well as funding a national stadium, he must consider the plight of football clubs such as Dumbarton, at the grass roots, which should also be supported?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "C714423", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27240, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 451.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 451.0, "ID": 27240, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 457.0, "ContributionID": 714423, "EditedText": "2.30 pm Time for Reflection followed by Executive Debate on Children and Young People Looked after by Local Authorities followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions", "EditedTextHTML": "2.30 pm Time for Reflection followed by Executive Debate on Children and Young People Looked after by Local Authorities followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "C714427", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27240, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 451.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 451.0, "ID": 27240, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 461.0, "ContributionID": 714427, "EditedText": "2.30 pm Question Time", "EditedTextHTML": "2.30 pm Question Time

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "C714428", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27240, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 451.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 451.0, "ID": 27240, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 462.0, "ContributionID": 714428, "EditedText": "3.10 pm First Minister's Question Time", "EditedTextHTML": "3.10 pm First Minister's Question Time

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "C714429", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27240, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 451.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 451.0, "ID": 27240, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 463.0, "ContributionID": 714429, "EditedText": "3.30 pm Continuation of Executive Debate on Housing", "EditedTextHTML": "3.30 pm Continuation of Executive Debate on Housing

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "C714438", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Deputy Conveners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27241, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 468.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 468.0, "ID": 27241, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 476.0, "ContributionID": 714438, "EditedText": "Meeting adjourned at 12:51.", "EditedTextHTML": "Meeting adjourned at 12:51.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C714441", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27242, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 478.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27243, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 479.0, "QuestionHeading": "Prime Minister (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27244, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 482.0, "DisplayOrder": 482.0, "ID": 27244, "ParentID": 27243 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "1. Dennis Canavan (Falkirk West): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 483.0, "ContributionID": 714441, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will detail what specific matters of mutual interest were discussed at the last meeting between the First Minister and the Prime Minister and what specific matters will be discussed at the next meeting. (S1O-845) The First Minister (Donald Dewar): That question is a very minor variation on a theme. Dennis Canavan will realise that the specific details of those discussions are private. However, I can tell him that I will meet the Prime Minister tomorrow at the first British-Irish Council meeting. That might give him something of a clue about at least one of the things that we might discuss.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will detail what specific matters of mutual interest were discussed at the last meeting between the First Minister and the Prime Minister and what specific matters will be discussed at the next meeting. (S1O-845) The First Minister (Donald Dewar): That question is a very minor variation on a theme. Dennis Canavan will realise that the specific details of those discussions are private. However, I can tell him that I will meet the Prime Minister tomorrow at the first British-Irish Council meeting. That might give him something of a clue about at least one of the things that we might discuss.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C714445", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27242, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 478.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27243, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 479.0, "QuestionHeading": "Prime Minister (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27244, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 482.0, "DisplayOrder": 482.0, "ID": 27244, "ParentID": 27243 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 491.0, "ContributionID": 714445, "EditedText": "I will take the question seriously, although the way in which it was wrapped up does not encourage me to do so. There was never any formal or specific offer to exempt Scotland and Scottish beef from the import ban that was imposed by the French. There were long discussions, during which the Prime Minister's commitment to getting the beef ban raised was enormously impressive. As I understand it, Premier Jospin was arguing the case for the certified herd scheme, and was encouraging us to abandon the date-based export scheme. That would have been a disaster not just for Scottish beef producers, but for beef producers in other parts of the United Kingdom. If Dennis Canavan does not want to take my word for that, I hope that he will accept the view of the National Farmers Union in Scotland, which has rightly said that the suggestion was a disgraceful nonsense and a total irrelevance to the real needs of the industry.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will take the question seriously, although the way in which it was wrapped up does not encourage me to do so. There was never any formal or specific offer to exempt Scotland and Scottish beef from the import ban that was imposed by the French. There were long discussions, during which the Prime Minister's commitment to getting the beef ban raised was enormously impressive.

As I understand it, Premier Jospin was arguing the case for the certified herd scheme, and was encouraging us to abandon the date-based export scheme. That would have been a disaster not just for Scottish beef producers, but for beef producers in other parts of the United Kingdom. If Dennis Canavan does not want to take my word for that, I hope that he will accept the view of the National Farmers Union in Scotland, which has rightly said that the suggestion was a disgraceful nonsense and a total irrelevance to the real needs of the industry.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2118E157P454C714446", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27242, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 478.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27243, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 479.0, "QuestionHeading": "Housing Partnership Initiative", "QuestionHeadingID": 27245, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 493.0, "DisplayOrder": 493.0, "ID": 27245, "ParentID": 27243 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Quinan, Mr Lloyd", "ID": 2118, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lloyd Quinan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "2. Mr Lloyd Quinan (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 494.0, "ContributionID": 714446, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what statutory requirements it will put in place to ensure that new landlords responsible for ex-council housing stock following its transfer under the new housing partnership initiative will be obliged to make provision for homeless people when local authority stock is transferred. (S1O-857)", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what statutory requirements it will put in place to ensure that new landlords responsible for ex-council housing stock following its transfer under the new housing partnership initiative will be obliged to make provision for homeless people when local authority stock is transferred. (S1O-857)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1850E185P354C714456", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27242, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 478.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27243, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 479.0, "QuestionHeading": "Rural Schools", "QuestionHeadingID": 27248, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 516.0, "DisplayOrder": 516.0, "ID": 27248, "ParentID": 27243 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Radcliffe, Nora", "ID": 1850, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Gordon" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nora Radcliffe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "5. Nora Radcliffe (Gordon) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 517.0, "ContributionID": 714456, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what steps it is taking to safeguard the future of rural schools in Scotland. (S1O-881) The Deputy Minister for Children and Education (Peter Peacock): The range of initiatives supported by the excellence fund for schools will benefit all communities, rural and urban, and the grant distribution mechanism for local authority funding takes account of factors that affect council services in rural areas.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what steps it is taking to safeguard the future of rural schools in Scotland. (S1O-881) The Deputy Minister for Children and Education (Peter Peacock): The range of initiatives supported by the excellence fund for schools will benefit all communities, rural and urban, and the grant distribution mechanism for local authority funding takes account of factors that affect council services in rural areas.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2152E53P75C714459", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27242, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 478.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27243, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 479.0, "QuestionHeading": "Prostate Cancer", "QuestionHeadingID": 27249, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 523.0, "DisplayOrder": 523.0, "ID": 27249, "ParentID": 27243 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnston, Nick", "ID": 2152, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nick Johnston", "SpeakerDisplayName": "6. Mr Nick Johnston (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 524.0, "ContributionID": 714459, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive how many deaths there have been in the last five years from prostate cancer. (S1O-855) The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): Between 1994 and 1998 there were 3,644 deaths in Scotland from prostate cancer.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive how many deaths there have been in the last five years from prostate cancer. (S1O-855) The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): Between 1994 and 1998 there were 3,644 deaths in Scotland from prostate cancer.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2152E53P75C714460", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27242, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 478.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27243, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 479.0, "QuestionHeading": "Prostate Cancer", "QuestionHeadingID": 27249, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 523.0, "DisplayOrder": 523.0, "ID": 27249, "ParentID": 27243 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnston, Nick", "ID": 2152, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nick Johnston", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nick Johnston: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 526.0, "ContributionID": 714460, "EditedText": "Is the minister aware that five- year survival rates in Scotland are only 48 per cent, compared with 86 per cent in the USA? Is she aware that the cases of prostate cancer have risen by 49 per cent since 1986, compared with a rise in breast cancer of 27 per cent in the same period? Is she further aware that the Scottish Office did not fund any research into prostate cancer in the past five years, while breast cancer received £1 million and colon cancer received £400,000 in the same period?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is the minister aware that five- year survival rates in Scotland are only 48 per cent, compared with 86 per cent in the USA? Is she aware that the cases of prostate cancer have risen by 49 per cent since 1986, compared with a rise in breast cancer of 27 per cent in the same period? Is she further aware that the Scottish Office did not fund any research into prostate cancer in the past five years, while breast cancer received £1 million and colon cancer received £400,000 in the same period?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C714461", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27242, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 478.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27243, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 479.0, "QuestionHeading": "Prostate Cancer", "QuestionHeadingID": 27249, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 523.0, "DisplayOrder": 523.0, "ID": 27249, "ParentID": 27243 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 528.0, "ContributionID": 714461, "EditedText": "I am aware of the figures that Nick Johnston quoted. I stress that the Scottish death rate for prostate cancer compares favourably with that of much of Europe. We are not complacent. In terms of research, we are investing significantly in work that will improve the diagnosis and treatment of all cancers.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am aware of the figures that Nick Johnston quoted. I stress that the Scottish death rate for prostate cancer compares

favourably with that of much of Europe. We are not complacent. In terms of research, we are investing significantly in work that will improve the diagnosis and treatment of all cancers.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C714464", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27242, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 478.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27243, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 479.0, "QuestionHeading": "Poverty", "QuestionHeadingID": 27250, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 530.0, "DisplayOrder": 530.0, "ID": 27250, "ParentID": 27243 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 535.0, "ContributionID": 714464, "EditedText": "I think that we have got the point.", "EditedTextHTML": "I think that we have got the point.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C714465", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27242, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 478.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27243, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 479.0, "QuestionHeading": "Poverty", "QuestionHeadingID": 27250, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 530.0, "DisplayOrder": 530.0, "ID": 27250, "ParentID": 27243 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 537.0, "ContributionID": 714465, "EditedText": "I will try to address those points.The figure that is quoted about the uptake of free school meals reflects the skill of Glasgow City Council in ensuring that every child in that city who is eligible for free school meals gets them. On the point about unemployment, Fiona knows that this Government has delivered a 60 per cent cut in long-term youth unemployment in this country over the past two years. On the issue of the five learned reports that we have had about Glasgow, the first report on Glasgow and Edinburgh stated that it nowhere compared pre-1997 and post-1997. The report from the University of Bristol on health covers 1991 to 1995. The Joseph Rowntree Foundation report said explicitly that it was too early to judge the Government's initiative. The Cabinet Office report used the most recent information, with little information on trends post-1997. The important point is that we are about one fifth of the way through the extra money that the Government has committed to tackle poverty. I look forward to Fiona, or any other SNP members, telling us how they will fill the black hole and how many people they will take out of poverty.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will try to address those points.

The figure that is quoted about the uptake of free school meals reflects the skill of Glasgow City Council in ensuring that every child in that city who is eligible for free school meals gets them.

On the point about unemployment, Fiona knows that this Government has delivered a 60 per cent cut in long-term youth unemployment in this country over the past two years.

On the issue of the five learned reports that we have had about Glasgow, the first report on Glasgow and Edinburgh stated that it nowhere compared pre-1997 and post-1997. The report from the University of Bristol on health covers 1991 to 1995. The Joseph Rowntree Foundation report said explicitly that it was too early to judge the Government's initiative. The Cabinet Office report used the most recent information, with little information on trends post-1997.

The important point is that we are about one fifth of the way through the extra money that the Government has committed to tackle poverty. I look forward to Fiona, or any other SNP members, telling us how they will fill the black hole and how many people they will take out of poverty.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C714468", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27242, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 478.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27243, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 479.0, "QuestionHeading": "Child Welfare", "QuestionHeadingID": 27251, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 539.0, "DisplayOrder": 539.0, "ID": 27251, "ParentID": 27243 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 544.0, "ContributionID": 714468, "EditedText": "Mr Barrie's question refers to the interdepartmental working group that has been trying to take this issue forward following the judgment in the case of A against the United Kingdom. Scottish officials have been involved in that interdepartmental working group, but because of differences in the law and in procedure in Scotland, it is thought better to proceed with separate Scottish consultation. I take the point that Mr Barrie makes about the need to make progress on this matter. I should add that it is our intention to seek the views of children as part of the consultation exercise.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Barrie's question refers to the interdepartmental working group that has been trying to take this issue forward following the judgment in the case of A against the United Kingdom. Scottish officials have been involved in that interdepartmental working group, but because of differences in the law and in procedure in Scotland, it is thought better to proceed with separate Scottish consultation.

I take the point that Mr Barrie makes about the need to make progress on this matter. I should add that it is our intention to seek the views of children as part of the consultation exercise.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C714476", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27242, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 478.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27243, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 479.0, "QuestionHeading": "Pig Farming", "QuestionHeadingID": 27253, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 553.0, "DisplayOrder": 553.0, "ID": 27253, "ParentID": 27243 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ross Finnie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 562.0, "ContributionID": 714476, "EditedText": "I can only repeat what I said earlier. The advice that we received from the Commission was that the specific purposes in relation to meat and bone meal would not be covered by the state aid rules. I repeat that in view of the information that Mr Welsh has given, which is also the point that was made by the pig industry, I will seek clarification on that important point.", "EditedTextHTML": "I can only repeat what I said earlier. The advice that we received from the Commission was that the specific purposes in relation to meat and bone meal would not be covered by the state aid rules. I repeat that in view of the information that Mr Welsh has given, which is also the point that was made by the pig industry, I will seek clarification on that important point.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1892E34P73C714477", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27242, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 478.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27243, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 479.0, "QuestionHeading": "Hunting with Dogs", "QuestionHeadingID": 27254, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 564.0, "DisplayOrder": 564.0, "ID": 27254, "ParentID": 27243 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Fergusson, Alex", "ID": 1892, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Fergusson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "11. Alex Fergusson (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 565.0, "ContributionID": 714477, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has to safeguard the welfare of 700 foxhounds in the event of a ban of hunting with dogs being endorsed by the Scottish Parliament. (S1O-866) The Minister for Rural Affairs (Ross Finnie): It would be entirely inappropriate for the Scottish Executive to anticipate the Parliament's decision in respect of any prospective legislative proposals.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has to safeguard the welfare of 700 foxhounds in the event of a ban of hunting with dogs being endorsed by the Scottish Parliament. (S1O-866) The Minister for Rural Affairs (Ross Finnie): It would be entirely inappropriate for the Scottish Executive to anticipate the Parliament's decision in respect of any prospective legislative proposals.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C714479", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27242, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 478.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27243, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 479.0, "QuestionHeading": "Hunting with Dogs", "QuestionHeadingID": 27254, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 564.0, "DisplayOrder": 564.0, "ID": 27254, "ParentID": 27243 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ross Finnie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 569.0, "ContributionID": 714479, "EditedText": "The purpose of commissioning that report was to do what Mr Fergusson wants— that is, to inform the debate. I am hopeful that all aspects of the matter will be taken into account in arriving at a report which will inform both the Executive and the Parliament of the economic impact. I hope that all aspects will be taken into account. I am assured by MLURI that it can meet that time scale. I have no reason to doubt it, but I am happy to take on board the point that Mr Fergusson made.", "EditedTextHTML": "The purpose of commissioning that report was to do what Mr Fergusson wants— that is, to inform the debate. I am hopeful that all aspects of the matter will be taken into account in arriving at a report which will inform both the Executive and the Parliament of the economic impact. I hope that all aspects will be taken into account. I am assured by MLURI that it can meet that time scale. I have no reason to doubt it, but I am happy to take on board the point that Mr Fergusson made.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C714483", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27242, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 478.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27243, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 479.0, "QuestionHeading": "Smoking", "QuestionHeadingID": 27256, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 578.0, "DisplayOrder": 578.0, "ID": 27256, "ParentID": 27243 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "13. Patricia Ferguson (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 579.0, "ContributionID": 714483, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what measures it will implement to encourage and support people in Scotland who wish to cease smoking cigarettes. (S1O-854) The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): The Scottish Executive is introducing a range of measures to reduce the levels of smoking by people in Scotland. Those include health education and promotion activities such as the Health Education Board for Scotland—HEBS—Smokeline; help for particular groups such as pregnant women; and targeted smoking cessation services and nicotine replacement therapy, which is available free of charge to those least able to afford it.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what measures it will implement to encourage and support people in Scotland who wish to cease smoking cigarettes. (S1O-854) The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): The Scottish Executive is introducing a range of measures to reduce the levels of smoking by people in Scotland. Those include health education and promotion activities such as the Health Education Board for Scotland—HEBS—Smokeline; help for particular groups such as pregnant women; and targeted smoking cessation services and nicotine replacement therapy, which is available free of charge to those least able to afford it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C714484", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27242, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 478.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27243, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 479.0, "QuestionHeading": "Smoking", "QuestionHeadingID": 27256, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 578.0, "DisplayOrder": 578.0, "ID": 27256, "ParentID": 27243 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Patricia Ferguson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 581.0, "ContributionID": 714484, "EditedText": "Given the tragic toll of ill health caused, particularly in the west of Scotland, by the smoking of cigarettes, does the minister agree that not just national initiatives such as those she mentioned, but local initiatives such as that organised by Maryhill health forum in my constituency, where nicotine patches are available at half the normal retail price, are to be welcomed?", "EditedTextHTML": "Given the tragic toll of ill health caused, particularly in the west of Scotland, by the smoking of cigarettes, does the minister agree that not just national initiatives such as those she mentioned, but local initiatives such as that organised by Maryhill health forum in my constituency, where nicotine patches are available at half the normal retail price, are to be welcomed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C714486", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27242, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 478.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27243, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 479.0, "QuestionHeading": "Smoking", "QuestionHeadingID": 27256, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 578.0, "DisplayOrder": 578.0, "ID": 27256, "ParentID": 27243 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 585.0, "ContributionID": 714486, "EditedText": "Starting with Mr Michael Russell, perhaps?", "EditedTextHTML": "Starting with Mr Michael Russell, perhaps?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1996E124P211C714488", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27242, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 478.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27243, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 479.0, "QuestionHeading": "Local Authority Leisure Facilities", "QuestionHeadingID": 27257, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 587.0, "DisplayOrder": 587.0, "ID": 27257, "ParentID": 27243 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAveety, Mr Frank", "ID": 1996, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Shettleston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Local Government", "SpeakerName": "Frank McAveety", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Local Government (Mr Frank McAveety): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 590.0, "ContributionID": 714488, "EditedText": "Local authorities that wish to transfer assets to other bodies at less than best price need to obtain Scottish ministers' consent under section 74(2) of the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1973.", "EditedTextHTML": "Local authorities that wish to transfer assets to other bodies at less than best price need to obtain Scottish ministers' consent under section 74(2) of the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1973.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C714489", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27242, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 478.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27243, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 479.0, "QuestionHeading": "Local Authority Leisure Facilities", "QuestionHeadingID": 27257, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 587.0, "DisplayOrder": 587.0, "ID": 27257, "ParentID": 27243 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 592.0, "ContributionID": 714489, "EditedText": "If and when the Executive is approached by South Lanarkshire Council on this matter, will it ensure that there is no risk that, by such transfer, such public assets will become unavailable as a result of financial failure by the trust, as has happened in other areas?", "EditedTextHTML": "If and when the Executive is approached by South Lanarkshire Council on this matter, will it ensure that there is no risk that, by such transfer, such public assets will become unavailable as a result of financial failure by the trust, as has happened in other areas?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C714495", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27242, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 478.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27243, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 479.0, "QuestionHeading": "Holyrood Project", "QuestionHeadingID": 27259, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 603.0, "DisplayOrder": 603.0, "ID": 27259, "ParentID": 27243 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Finance (Mr Jack McConnell): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 606.0, "ContributionID": 714495, "EditedText": "The costs of the Holyrood project, with the exception of certain landscaping costs, fall to be met from the budget of the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body. That budget is determined annually as part of the process of allocating the total Scottish budget.", "EditedTextHTML": "The costs of the Holyrood project, with the exception of certain landscaping costs, fall to be met from the budget of the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body. That budget is determined annually as part of the process of allocating the total Scottish budget.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C714498", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27242, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 478.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27243, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 479.0, "QuestionHeading": "Holyrood Project", "QuestionHeadingID": 27259, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 603.0, "DisplayOrder": 603.0, "ID": 27259, "ParentID": 27243 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 612.0, "ContributionID": 714498, "EditedText": "If Ms MacDonald asks me that question on another occasion, I will answer it.", "EditedTextHTML": "If Ms MacDonald asks me that question on another occasion, I will answer it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2090E83P266C714499", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27242, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 478.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27243, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 479.0, "QuestionHeading": "Housing", "QuestionHeadingID": 27260, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 614.0, "DisplayOrder": 614.0, "ID": 27260, "ParentID": 27243 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAllion, Mr John", "ID": 2090, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dundee East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John McAllion", "SpeakerDisplayName": "17. Mr John McAllion (Dundee East) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 615.0, "ContributionID": 714499, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what recent discussions it has had with housing organisations relating to a single social tenancy and the right to buy. (S1O-888) The Minister for Communities (Ms Wendy Alexander): Over the past two months, I have discussed the single social tenancy and the right to buy at a number of meetings with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities, the Scottish Federation of Housing Associations, the Chartered Institute of Housing, Scottish Homes, the Scottish Tenants Organisation, the Scottish Council for the Single Homeless and Shelter (Scotland).", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what recent discussions it has had with housing organisations relating to a single social tenancy and the right to buy. (S1O-888) The Minister for Communities (Ms Wendy Alexander): Over the past two months, I have discussed the single social tenancy and the right to buy at a number of meetings with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities, the Scottish Federation of Housing Associations, the Chartered Institute of Housing, Scottish Homes, the Scottish Tenants Organisation, the Scottish Council for the Single Homeless and Shelter (Scotland).

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C714501", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27242, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 478.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27243, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 479.0, "QuestionHeading": "Housing", "QuestionHeadingID": 27260, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 614.0, "DisplayOrder": 614.0, "ID": 27260, "ParentID": 27243 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 619.0, "ContributionID": 714501, "EditedText": "As the member knows, a number of modelling exercises have been undertaken. They lead us to believe that about 850 additional houses will be sold each year. We are committed to building 6,000 homes each year for rent or low-cost home ownership. On this issue, we sometimes have to listen to the people—that is the purpose of this Parliament— and not necessarily to the professionals. I am struck by the fact that, in the past week, not one tenant has phoned, written or spoken to me to say that they regret that they will be acquiring the same rights that 700,000 tenants in Scotland already have.", "EditedTextHTML": "As the member knows, a number of modelling exercises have been undertaken. They lead us to believe that about 850 additional houses will be sold each year. We are committed to building 6,000 homes each year for rent or low-cost home ownership. On this issue, we sometimes have to listen to the people—that is the purpose of this Parliament— and not necessarily to the professionals. I am struck by the fact that, in the past week, not one tenant has phoned, written or spoken to me to say that they regret that they will be acquiring the same rights that 700,000 tenants in Scotland already have.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1781E188P474C714502", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27242, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 478.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27243, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 479.0, "QuestionHeading": "Child Care Strategy", "QuestionHeadingID": 27261, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 621.0, "DisplayOrder": 621.0, "ID": 27261, "ParentID": 27243 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McGugan, Irene", "ID": 1781, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Irene McGugan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "18. Irene McGugan (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 622.0, "ContributionID": 714502, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive why the first priority in its child care strategy as set out in \"Making it work together—a programme for government\", of setting up a new national child care information line by December 1999, has not been delivered. (S1O-868)", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive why the first priority in its child care strategy as set out in \"Making it work together—a programme for government\", of setting up a new national child care information line by December 1999, has not been delivered. (S1O-868)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C714505", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27242, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 478.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27243, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 479.0, "QuestionHeading": "Child Care Strategy", "QuestionHeadingID": 27261, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 621.0, "DisplayOrder": 621.0, "ID": 27261, "ParentID": 27243 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Galbraith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 628.0, "ContributionID": 714505, "EditedText": "As Irene McGugan will have learned from my answer, we have delivered on that. If she is in doubt, she should go to www.childcarelink.gov.uk, where she will be able to find out about Angus.", "EditedTextHTML": "As Irene McGugan will have learned from my answer, we have delivered on that. If she is in doubt, she should go to www.childcarelink.gov.uk, where she will be able to find out about Angus.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C714506", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27262, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 630.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27263, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 631.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27264, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 632.0, "DisplayOrder": 632.0, "ID": 27264, "ParentID": 27263 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "1. Mr Alex Salmond (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 633.0, "ContributionID": 714506, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive when the First Minister last met the Secretary of State for Scotland and what issues they discussed. (S1O842) The First Minister (Donald Dewar): I last formally met the Secretary of State for Scotland on 1 December, but we speak frequently on the phone. Of course, we discuss constantly matters of mutual interest.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive when the First Minister last met the Secretary of State for Scotland and what issues they discussed. (S1O842) The First Minister (Donald Dewar): I last formally met the Secretary of State for Scotland on 1 December, but we speak frequently on the phone. Of course, we discuss constantly matters of mutual interest.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C714510", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27262, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 630.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27263, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 631.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27264, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 632.0, "DisplayOrder": 632.0, "ID": 27264, "ParentID": 27263 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 641.0, "ContributionID": 714510, "EditedText": "Some of those issues would not qualify under that heading, but Mr Salmond mentioned some important points. I worry greatly about unemployment in the Highlands and I recognise the cyclical nature of the offshore construction industry. However, I am also aware that we have the lowest unemployment benefit claimant count in Scotland for 23 years. I am worried about some of the social trends and difficulties in Glasgow, but I am encouraged by the fact that, in the early 1990s, unemployment in Glasgow was 50 per cent higher than it is now. We are also beginning to see some innovative and brave efforts being made to tackle the housing problems of that city. I am convinced that the Executive will make progress and I am certain that it will have disappointments but, at the end of the day, I believe that the balance will be on the right side and that we are bravely and properly reflecting the priorities of the people of Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "Some of those issues would not qualify under that heading, but Mr Salmond mentioned some important points. I worry greatly

about unemployment in the Highlands and I recognise the cyclical nature of the offshore construction industry. However, I am also aware that we have the lowest unemployment benefit claimant count in Scotland for 23 years. I am worried about some of the social trends and difficulties in Glasgow, but I am encouraged by the fact that, in the early 1990s, unemployment in Glasgow was 50 per cent higher than it is now. We are also beginning to see some innovative and brave efforts being made to tackle the housing problems of that city.

I am convinced that the Executive will make progress and I am certain that it will have disappointments but, at the end of the day, I believe that the balance will be on the right side and that we are bravely and properly reflecting the priorities of the people of Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C714511", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27262, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 630.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27263, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 631.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27264, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 632.0, "DisplayOrder": 632.0, "ID": 27264, "ParentID": 27263 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 643.0, "ContributionID": 714511, "EditedText": "I will mention one further issue. The Cubie report is to be published on Monday. Has the First Minister considered the irony of the fact that his Administration can survive only if the Liberal Democrats renege on an election commitment? Has he also considered that his heir apparent, Henry McLeish, will get the credit if the Administration survives, and that the First Minister will get the blame if it collapses? Could that be why the First Minister believes that the roof is about to fall in on his Administration?", "EditedTextHTML": "I will mention one further issue. The Cubie report is to be published on Monday. Has the First Minister considered the irony of the fact that his Administration can survive only if the Liberal Democrats renege on an election commitment? Has he also considered that his heir apparent, Henry McLeish, will get the credit if the Administration survives, and that the First Minister will get the blame if it collapses? Could that be why the First Minister believes that the roof is about to fall in on his Administration?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C714512", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27262, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 630.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27263, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 631.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27264, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 632.0, "DisplayOrder": 632.0, "ID": 27264, "ParentID": 27263 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 645.0, "ContributionID": 714512, "EditedText": "Alex Salmond has the conspiracy theory built into him. I do not know what the practice is in the SNP—although I know that questions have been asked about his position—but I can tell him that the Executive works as a team and we do not go round apportioning blame or, indeed, credit among ourselves. The issue that Mr Salmond mentioned is known to be a difficult one. We made it clear that the partnership intends to approach it on a collective basis. We will have to wait until we read the report. As I am in a helpful mood, I will advise Mr Salmond not to wait in all day on Monday as the report will not be published until Tuesday.", "EditedTextHTML": "Alex Salmond has the conspiracy theory built into him. I do not know what the practice is in the SNP—although I know that questions have been asked about his position—but I can tell him that the Executive works as a team and we do not go round apportioning blame or, indeed, credit among ourselves.

The issue that Mr Salmond mentioned is known to be a difficult one. We made it clear that the partnership intends to approach it on a collective basis. We will have to wait until we read the report.

As I am in a helpful mood, I will advise Mr Salmond not to wait in all day on Monday as the report will not be published until Tuesday.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C714513", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27262, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 630.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27263, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 631.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27264, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 632.0, "DisplayOrder": 632.0, "ID": 27264, "ParentID": 27263 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 647.0, "ContributionID": 714513, "EditedText": "Did the First Minister discuss the issues surrounding the James Bulger case with the Secretary of State for Scotland? What implications does the judgment of the European Court that was announced today have for young offenders who have been convicted of the most serious offences?", "EditedTextHTML": "Did the First Minister discuss the issues surrounding the James Bulger case with the Secretary of State for Scotland? What implications does the judgment of the European Court that was announced today have for young offenders who have been convicted of the most serious offences?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C714515", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27262, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 630.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27263, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 631.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27264, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 632.0, "DisplayOrder": 632.0, "ID": 27264, "ParentID": 27263 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "2. David McLetchie (Lothians) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 651.0, "ContributionID": 714515, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive when the First Minister last met the Secretary of State for Scotland and what issues they discussed. (S1O-851) The First Minister: Mr McLetchie will be glad to know that I have not changed my mind since I gave an answer to exactly the same question a few minutes ago.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive when the First Minister last met the Secretary of State for Scotland and what issues they discussed. (S1O-851) The First Minister: Mr McLetchie will be glad to know that I have not changed my mind since I gave an answer to exactly the same question a few minutes ago.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C714516", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27262, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 630.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27263, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 631.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27264, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 632.0, "DisplayOrder": 632.0, "ID": 27264, "ParentID": 27263 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 653.0, "ContributionID": 714516, "EditedText": "The First Minister is always a model of consistency in these questions. In his discussions and reflections on the year that is almost awa, did the First Minister review the performance of the Scottish Executive to date and conclude that the end-of-term report would come up with a resounding \"F\" for failure—failure to tackle the real concerns of people in Scotland? We have falling police numbers and cuts in the prison budget at a time of rising crime. There are concerns about falling education standards, which Mr Dewar's Executive tackles by persecuting one of the best wee primary schools in Scotland. We have a transport policy so incoherent that even Professor David Begg disowns it. Does the First Minister consider that that is a political record to be proud of?", "EditedTextHTML": "The First Minister is always a model of consistency in these questions.

In his discussions and reflections on the year that is almost awa, did the First Minister review the performance of the Scottish Executive to date and conclude that the end-of-term report would come up with a resounding \"F\" for failure—failure to tackle the real concerns of people in Scotland? We have falling police numbers and cuts in the prison budget at a time of rising crime. There are concerns about falling education standards, which Mr Dewar's Executive tackles by persecuting one of the best wee primary schools in Scotland. We have a transport policy so incoherent that even Professor David Begg disowns it. Does the First Minister consider that that is a political record to be proud of?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C714518", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27262, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 630.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27263, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 631.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27264, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 632.0, "DisplayOrder": 632.0, "ID": 27264, "ParentID": 27263 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 657.0, "ContributionID": 714518, "EditedText": "I hope that the First Minister is keeping his seat warm for me, because I am looking forward to the election with relish. Could we perhaps look forward to the new year? Will the First Minister make a resolution to put right Labour's great betrayal of our students and their families on the subject of tuition fees and enable his coalition partners, the Liberal Democrats, finally to live up to their election pledge to abolish tuition fees? Will he tell his Minister for Finance to find the money to do that from his budget, given that Mr McConnell has already found £80 million for items of education expenditure that were never described as non-negotiable? Only this morning, we heard that he had managed to magic up another £2 million for the Hampden bail-out.", "EditedTextHTML": "I hope that the First Minister is keeping his seat warm for me, because I am looking forward to the election with relish.

Could we perhaps look forward to the new year? Will the First Minister make a resolution to put right Labour's great betrayal of our students and their families on the subject of tuition fees and enable his coalition partners, the Liberal Democrats, finally to live up to their election pledge to abolish tuition fees? Will he tell his Minister for Finance to find the money to do that from his budget, given that Mr McConnell has already found £80 million for items of education expenditure that were never described as non-negotiable? Only this morning, we heard that he had managed to magic up another £2 million for the Hampden bail-out.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C714519", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27262, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 630.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27263, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 631.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27264, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 632.0, "DisplayOrder": 632.0, "ID": 27264, "ParentID": 27263 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 659.0, "ContributionID": 714519, "EditedText": "I am surprised by all thiscriticism of the so-called Hampden bail-out. I would like, in passing, to congratulate Sam Galbraith and his team, and in particular the civil servants behind him, on an extremely difficult series of negotiations, which has produced a conclusion that should give satisfaction to everyone. As far as the future is concerned, I am a little depressed by the insight given to me in the past two minutes about the many speeches on education that Mr McLetchie will no doubt make in January. I look forward to the early date when one in two school leavers enters further or higher education, and to the expansion of higher education that is essential if we are to participate in the competitive economies of the world. We want better access to education and better education facilities. We have put a good deal of money into and given priority to that effort and we will continue to do so.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am surprised by all this

criticism of the so-called Hampden bail-out. I would like, in passing, to congratulate Sam Galbraith and his team, and in particular the civil servants behind him, on an extremely difficult series of negotiations, which has produced a conclusion that should give satisfaction to everyone.

As far as the future is concerned, I am a little depressed by the insight given to me in the past two minutes about the many speeches on education that Mr McLetchie will no doubt make in January. I look forward to the early date when one in two school leavers enters further or higher education, and to the expansion of higher education that is essential if we are to participate in the competitive economies of the world. We want better access to education and better education facilities. We have put a good deal of money into and given priority to that effort and we will continue to do so.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C714522", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27262, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 630.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27263, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 631.0, "QuestionHeading": "Dyslexia", "QuestionHeadingID": 27265, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 665.0, "DisplayOrder": 665.0, "ID": 27265, "ParentID": 27263 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "3. Miss Annabel Goldie (West of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 666.0, "ContributionID": 714522, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what support exists in Scotland to assist schoolchildren suffering from dyslexia. (S1O-874) The Minister for Children and Education (Mr Sam Galbraith): The Scottish Executive provides £5 million to local authorities for in-service special educational needs staff development and training, including training in dyslexia.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what support exists in Scotland to assist schoolchildren suffering from dyslexia. (S1O-874) The Minister for Children and Education (Mr Sam Galbraith): The Scottish Executive provides £5 million to local authorities for in-service special educational needs staff development and training, including training in dyslexia.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2080E130P217C714527", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27262, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 630.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27263, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 631.0, "QuestionHeading": "Dyslexia", "QuestionHeadingID": 27265, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 665.0, "DisplayOrder": 665.0, "ID": 27265, "ParentID": 27263 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lamont, Johann", "ID": 2080, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Pollok" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Johann Lamont", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Johann Lamont (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 676.0, "ContributionID": 714527, "EditedText": "Will the minister join me in welcoming the young people who have come here this afternoon to speak to members and to ask us difficult questions about the education service that we provide? Does he recognise the importance of providing for a broad range of special needs and for, for example, bullying? Does he agree that the key to delivering the service will be to listen to young people, who have so much to say on such issues?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister join me in welcoming the young people who have come here this afternoon to speak to members and to ask us difficult questions about the education service that we provide? Does he recognise the importance of providing for a broad range of special needs and for, for example, bullying? Does he agree that the key to delivering the service will be to listen to young people, who have so much to say on such issues?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C714528", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27262, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 630.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27263, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 631.0, "QuestionHeading": "Dyslexia", "QuestionHeadingID": 27265, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 665.0, "DisplayOrder": 665.0, "ID": 27265, "ParentID": 27263 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Galbraith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 678.0, "ContributionID": 714528, "EditedText": "I take a particular interest in consulting those who are involved in the service. We must always remember that the basis of any service should be delivery to the users of the service, not its producers. I have spent a considerable amount of time consulting in several areas, and not just through the consultation programme for the education bill. The Executive is spending large sums of additional money on special educational needs. The recent Riddell report has resulted in the creation of the special educational needs advisory forum. We have done a lot of work on the subject.", "EditedTextHTML": "I take a particular interest in consulting those who are involved in the service. We must always remember that the basis of any service should be delivery to the users of the service, not its producers. I have spent a considerable amount of time consulting in several areas, and not just through the consultation programme for the education bill. The Executive is spending large sums of additional money on special educational needs. The recent Riddell report has resulted in the creation of the special educational needs advisory forum. We have done a lot of work on the subject.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1985E207P501C714529", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27262, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 630.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27263, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 631.0, "QuestionHeading": "Dyslexia", "QuestionHeadingID": 27265, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 665.0, "DisplayOrder": 665.0, "ID": 27265, "ParentID": 27263 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hamilton, Mr Duncan", "ID": 1985, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Duncan Hamilton (Highlands and Islands) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 680.0, "ContributionID": 714529, "EditedText": "Is Mr Galbraith aware that many of the schoolchildren who suffer from dyslexia also suffer from dyspraxia? Will he tell us what resources the Executive is putting into provision for that?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is Mr Galbraith aware that many of the schoolchildren who suffer from dyslexia also suffer from dyspraxia? Will he tell us what resources the Executive is putting into provision for that?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C714532", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27262, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 630.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27263, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 631.0, "QuestionHeading": "Dyslexia", "QuestionHeadingID": 27265, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 665.0, "DisplayOrder": 665.0, "ID": 27265, "ParentID": 27263 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Galbraith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 686.0, "ContributionID": 714532, "EditedText": "Yes. I am not sure if I am allowed to say this before the bill comes to the Parliament—the bill is currently with you, Presiding Officer, and we hope that it will be available to everyone at the start of next year—but it is my intention to put a presumption in the bill that individuals with special educational needs will be taught in mainstream schooling. I do not want to put that into the bill just yet, until it has been fully consulted on. I will be asking the special educational needs advisory forum to consult us. I hope that it will be able to come back to me in time to get that presumption into the bill.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes. I am not sure if I am allowed to say this before the bill comes to the Parliament—the bill is currently with you, Presiding Officer, and we hope that it will be available to everyone at the start of next year—but it is my intention to put a presumption in the bill that individuals with special educational needs will be taught in mainstream schooling. I do not want to put that into the bill just yet, until it has been fully consulted on. I will be asking the special educational needs advisory forum to consult us. I hope that it will be able to come back to me in time to get that presumption into the bill.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C714539", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 701.0, "ContributionID": 714539, "EditedText": "We now move to the debate on motion S1M-383, in the name of Susan Deacon, and the amendments to it. Before the debate starts, it is only fair to tell members that we already have more requests to speak than can possibly be accommodated. The four-minute time limit will be rigorously imposed, but even if everyone sticks to that limit, we will not get everybody in.", "EditedTextHTML": "We now move to the debate on motion S1M-383, in the name of Susan Deacon, and the amendments to it.

Before the debate starts, it is only fair to tell members that we already have more requests to speak than can possibly be accommodated. The four-minute time limit will be rigorously imposed, but even if everyone sticks to that limit, we will not get everybody in.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C714540", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 704.0, "ContributionID": 714540, "EditedText": "It is right and fitting that this, our last parliamentary debate before the turn of the century, should be about the future of our national health service in Scotland. That reflects the priorities of this partnership Executive, and I believe that it reflects the priorities of the Scottish people. Today I want to look to the future—but first I would like to reflect briefly on the past. The NHS, which was founded 51 years ago, stands as one of the lasting monuments of the 20th century. Since its inception, the NHS has faced up to challenges. The first was that of its creation, when giants such as Beveridge and Bevan married vision with practical, determined action to create a new era— a new era in which care and treatment was based on need, not on ability to pay. Over the years, the NHS has faced up to other challenges, for example, the challenge of diseases such as smallpox, diphtheria and tuberculosis, or present-day killers such as HIV. Another challenge is that of need. The NHS has met ever increasing demands on resources as medicine has advanced and technology and treatment have improved. It has also—rightly—met the challenge of the growing expectations of patients. However, the biggest challenge might still be ahead of us: to meet the needs and expectations of the next generations and to deliver a truly patient-centred health service. The challenge is to deliver an NHS in Scotland that is fit for the purpose, fit for our people and fit for the 21st century. Today I lay down a challenge to every member of this Parliament to join the Executive in addressing meaningfully and constructively the real challenges and opportunities that lie ahead. For the past six months, I have travelled the length and breadth of Scotland meeting NHS staff and patients in GP practices, in hospitals and in communities. I have spoken to those who provide care and have listened to those who receive it. I have sat around the table with nurses, doctors and other health care professionals who are working together to face the challenges of the future. Today I pay tribute to those professionals, who are at the heart of our NHS. Let us make no mistake. The NHS in Scotland delivers superb care—often immense care—for patients. It responds practically and positively to new demands and new challenges, and this Parliament needs to do the same.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is right and fitting that this, our last parliamentary debate before the turn of the century, should be about the future of our national health service in Scotland. That reflects the priorities of this partnership Executive, and I believe that it reflects the priorities of the Scottish people.

Today I want to look to the future—but first I would like to reflect briefly on the past. The NHS, which was founded 51 years ago, stands as one of the lasting monuments of the 20th century. Since its inception, the NHS has faced up to challenges. The first was that of its creation, when giants such as Beveridge and Bevan married vision with practical, determined action to create a new era— a new era in which care and treatment was based on need, not on ability to pay.

Over the years, the NHS has faced up to other challenges, for example, the challenge of diseases such as smallpox, diphtheria and tuberculosis, or present-day killers such as HIV. Another challenge is that of need. The NHS has met ever increasing demands on resources as medicine has advanced and technology and treatment have improved. It has also—rightly—met the challenge of the growing expectations of patients.

However, the biggest challenge might still be ahead of us: to meet the needs and expectations of the next generations and to deliver a truly patient-centred health service. The challenge is to deliver an NHS in Scotland that is fit for the purpose, fit for our people and fit for the 21st century. Today I lay down a challenge to every member of this Parliament to join the Executive in addressing meaningfully and constructively the real challenges and opportunities that lie ahead.

For the past six months, I have travelled the length and breadth of Scotland meeting NHS staff and patients in GP practices, in hospitals and in communities. I have spoken to those who provide care and have listened to those who receive it. I have sat around the table with nurses, doctors and other health care professionals who are working together to face the challenges of the future. Today I pay tribute to those professionals, who are at the heart of our NHS.

Let us make no mistake. The NHS in Scotland delivers superb care—often immense care—for patients. It responds practically and positively to new demands and new challenges, and this Parliament needs to do the same.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C714546", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 716.0, "ContributionID": 714546, "EditedText": "I will give members a choice: we can have another sterile exchange of numbers or a real discussion on the issues facing the health service. I have already answered Mr Adam's question; indeed I have answered it time and again. I challenge the Opposition to get involved in the real issues and the real debate, because we will not move forward—", "EditedTextHTML": "I will give members a choice: we can have another sterile exchange of numbers or a real discussion on the issues facing the health service. I have already answered Mr Adam's question; indeed I have answered it time and again. I challenge the Opposition to get involved in the real issues and the real debate, because we will not move forward—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1863E284P532C714551", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Cunningham, Roseanna", "ID": 1863, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Perth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Roseanna Cunningham", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Roseanna Cunningham (Perth) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 726.0, "ContributionID": 714551, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C714552", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 728.0, "ContributionID": 714552, "EditedText": "If I may, Presiding Officer, I will continue, because I know that my time is limited. Rent-a-quote politics—which is what we are talking about—may generate column inches for Opposition MSPs, but they do nothing for patients, staff or, frankly, for the standing of politicians or this Parliament. We have a choice. We can sit here making claims and counter-claims about resources and manufacturing crises, scouring for scandals, or we can get down to business. We have an NHS of which we can be proud. The 136,000 caring professionals who work in our health service embody the very best values of public service. They are there when we need them—24 hours a day, 365 days a year—ready to cope with the pressures of millennium celebrations and the extra demands that every winter brings. They deserve our thanks and support. The Executive is giving them that support and intends to do more.", "EditedTextHTML": "If I may, Presiding Officer, I will continue, because I know that my time is limited.

Rent-a-quote politics—which is what we are talking about—may generate column inches for Opposition MSPs, but they do nothing for patients, staff or, frankly, for the standing of politicians or this Parliament. We have a choice. We can sit here making claims and counter-claims about resources and manufacturing crises, scouring for scandals, or we can get down to business.

We have an NHS of which we can be proud. The 136,000 caring professionals who work in our health service embody the very best values of public service. They are there when we need them—24 hours a day, 365 days a year—ready to cope with the pressures of millennium celebrations and the extra demands that every winter brings. They deserve our thanks and support. The

Executive is giving them that support and intends to do more.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C714560", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 744.0, "ContributionID": 714560, "EditedText": "I have no time.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have no time.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1863E284P532C714561", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Cunningham, Roseanna", "ID": 1863, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Perth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Roseanna Cunningham", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Roseanna Cunningham: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 746.0, "ContributionID": 714561, "EditedText": "It is on that point.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is on that point.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C714563", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 750.0, "ContributionID": 714563, "EditedText": "I have taken a number of interventions. Nissen huts, mixed-sex accommodation, drafty corridors, Nightingale wards—that is not a modern NHS. It is not what we want for our families. It is not what we should offer to the Scottish people. As politicians, we owe it to the staff who work in our health service and to the people who use it to lead, not to react; to reassure, not to scare; and to look to the future, not to the past. My picture for the future is an NHS that is based on partnership, that is open and accountable, and that provides high-quality, modern services throughout Scotland. It should be the vision for the future of us all. As we move into the new millennium, we owe it to our children and to our children's children to deliver that modern NHS for Scotland, an NHS for the 21st century. I move,That the Parliament is wholeheartedly committed to the NHS in Scotland and applauds the contribution and commitment of NHS staff across Scotland; welcomes the abolition of the internal market; recognises the record levels of investment in the NHS enabling the biggest ever hospital building programme; believes that the development of a modern NHS depends on a sustained programme of service redesign, greater public accountability and involvement and true partnership working across the NHS in Scotland, and pledges to work with the Executive, NHS and the Scottish people to address constructively and imaginatively the challenges of building a 21st century NHS.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have taken a number of interventions.

Nissen huts, mixed-sex accommodation, drafty corridors, Nightingale wards—that is not a modern NHS. It is not what we want for our families. It is not what we should offer to the Scottish people.

As politicians, we owe it to the staff who work in our health service and to the people who use it to lead, not to react; to reassure, not to scare; and to look to the future, not to the past. My picture for the future is an NHS that is based on partnership, that is open and accountable, and that provides high-quality, modern services throughout Scotland. It should be the vision for the future of us all. As we move into the new millennium, we owe it to our children and to our children's children to deliver that modern NHS for Scotland, an NHS for the 21st century.

I move,

That the Parliament is wholeheartedly committed to the NHS in Scotland and applauds the contribution and commitment of NHS staff across Scotland; welcomes the abolition of the internal market; recognises the record levels of investment in the NHS enabling the biggest ever hospital building programme; believes that the development of a modern NHS depends on a sustained programme of service redesign, greater public accountability and involvement and true partnership working across the NHS in Scotland, and pledges to work with the Executive, NHS and the Scottish people to address constructively and imaginatively the challenges of building a 21st century NHS.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C714556", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 736.0, "ContributionID": 714556, "EditedText": "It is precisely because I am determined that the NHS should give the best possible service to elderly people—and all the people of Scotland—that I want us to make progress in developing in our hospitals and in our communities the patient-centred health service that the people of Scotland need. The Executive is determined to do that. We want to build on the foundation that we inherited from the previous Labour Administration, which drew a line under the madness of the internal market, ended the inequity of GP fundholding and so began the process of healing the health service. No one should underestimate the damage that was done by the divisiveness of the internal market and by policies that put political ideology before the needs of patients. We have begun the process of renewal, but I am determined that we will see it through to fruition. First, we must ensure that the NHS of the future is based truly on collaboration, not on competition. I want us to increase the pace of collaboration and partnership in the NHS in Scotland, not just between trust and health board or trust and trust, but between manager and clinician, doctor and nurse and carer and cleaner. There must be a new mobilisation of all the staff who deliver our NHS services. Through the Scottish partnership forum, we have put that philosophy into practice. We have brought together NHS staff, trade unions, management and Government, not across the table, but around it. We have worked together to deliver real improvements: the first ever education, training and lifelong learning strategy for the NHS in Scotland, the soon-to-be-launched occupational health and safety strategy for NHS staff and other products of partnership working, such as the millennium pay deal and action to reduce junior doctors' working hours. Those are real improvements for NHS employees, which in turn deliver real improvements to NHS patients. The partnership approach is now being developed at local level and, over the months ahead, I want to ensure that partnership working becomes a reality across the NHS in Scotland. There is no one better placed to help shape the future of the NHS than the people who work in it. I want them to be at the heart of the decision- making process. Alongside that, I will be working to bring about a step change in the way in which the NHS—locally and nationally—communicates and engages with the wider public. The NHS belongs to the people of Scotland. They must feel that it does. It will not be easy to achieve that change in culture. It will take years, not months, to make it happen, but happen it must. Local communities and local elected representatives have a right to know who takes decisions and why they are taken and must have the opportunity to contribute to the decision-making process. The remote and faceless NHS boardroom of the internal market must become a thing of the past. Next month, I plan to meet all NHS board and trust chairmen to discuss with them how that change can be achieved. Over the coming months, I will be taking steps to attract a far wider pool of people into NHS boardrooms. As a first step, I am writing to every MSP of every political hue to ask them to identify people in their local communities who could make a contribution in NHS boardrooms. That new sprit of openness, accountability and inclusion must extend to patients. A patient-centred NHS must be more than just a slogan—it must become a way of life. That is why, in our programme for government, we committed ourselves to developing the patients project, which will aim fundamentally to change and improve the way in which the NHS communicates with patients through every stage in their journey: from GP surgery to out-patient clinic, from hospital to home. That work, which will draw widely on the views and experiences of patients themselves, will start in earnest early in the new year. As well as keeping patients informed, we must work to reduce delays throughout the system. No single issue dominates my mailbag more than that. Such delays provoke a fear of the unknown: patients and their relatives wait and worry, not knowing what will happen next or when or where it will happen. Our investment in a modern telecommunications system, linking up all GPs and hospitals in Scotland, will mean that, by 2002, patients will be able to leave their GP practice knowing when and where their out-patient appointment will be. Early next year, we will launch the first pilots of Scottish NHS Direct, designed here in Scotland with the active participation of GPs and nurses. It will provide high-quality expert nursing advice via the telephone, 24 hours a day. Our work does not end there. In our programme for government, we committed ourselves to set targets for speeding up treatment and shortening waiting times. Over the past few months, an expert support force has been working with the NHS across Scotland to explore how best we can do that. Doctors, nurses and patients' representatives have told us that we have to tackle the inequalities in waiting times across Scotland, and that we have to address all the stages of a patient's journey through the NHS, not just one part of it. They have told us to redesign that journey so that it is not only faster but better planned, with realistic timetables that are met day in, day out, so that patients can have confidence that promises will be kept. I intend to heed their advice. That is why I can announce today that, over the coming months, we will be working with the NHS to establish national maximum waiting times to be met by March 2001 in the key clinical priorities of heart disease, cancer and, for the first time, mental illness. Much of that work will be achieved through the redesign of existing services. It can be done. We know that because, in many cases, it has been done. For example, the cataract redesign project in Ayrshire has resulted in the waiting time being reduced from 12 months to six weeks. Think of the difference that that makes for an elderly person waiting for a cataract operation. I want that approach to be rolled out across the country. That is why we will double the number of one-stop clinics and why we will work with NHS staff to support staff in the modernisation and redesign of services. There will be a new alliance for patients, in which the Executive will work together with staff to deliver a new type of patient-centred care where services are made to fit people, not the other way about. To achieve such changes and to deliver services in Scotland that can be the envy of the world, we must change the way in which the NHS delivers care. We must build on success, using innovative service design, our leading-edge work in clinical standards and our new approaches to multidisciplinary working. However, that process of modernisation and improvement also requires us to tear down some of the relics of the NHS of the past, including the outdated ways of working and, sometimes, the outdated buildings and shells that house them. That will require hard decisions: a new way ofdoing things; a new alliance of interests—an alliance for patients; a modernisation of people and priorities rather than just of technology and terrain. The NHS is not just about bricks and mortar—it is about the people who provide care and the quality of care that people receive, in hospital or increasingly in their community or home. Fifty years ago, when most of our hospitals were built, they were the home of services because there was no other way of delivering them. Today, they are a hub for many services because so much more can now be delivered away from a hospital setting—in GP surgeries, community health centres and at home, with the support of health visitors and other community-based health care professionals. Of course, we need new facilities. That is why there will be nearly £500 million of new hospital developments between now and 2002. That is why we are developing a new generation of walk-inwalk- out hospitals that harness new technologies and the benefits of day surgery. Throughout Scotland, a process of reviewing local facilities is now taking place, to give people the best possible quality of care. That process will draw the blueprint of a new NHS. Our aim is to deliver local, convenient services wherever possible. It will be an NHS that will not shirk from the need to provide first-class treatment of the highest quality, because quality matters. The reviews will propose changes to services. They will be changes for the better. Let me set another challenge to members.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is precisely because I am determined that the NHS should give the best possible service to elderly people—and all the people of Scotland—that I want us to make progress in developing in our hospitals and in our communities the patient-centred health service that the people of Scotland need.

The Executive is determined to do that. We want to build on the foundation that we inherited from the previous Labour Administration, which drew a line under the madness of the internal market, ended the inequity of GP fundholding and so began the process of healing the health service. No one should underestimate the damage that was done by the divisiveness of the internal market and by policies that put political ideology before the needs of patients.

We have begun the process of renewal, but I am determined that we will see it through to fruition. First, we must ensure that the NHS of the future is based truly on collaboration, not on competition. I want us to increase the pace of collaboration and partnership in the NHS in Scotland, not just between trust and health board or trust and trust, but between manager and clinician, doctor and nurse and carer and cleaner. There must be a new mobilisation of all the staff who deliver our NHS services.

Through the Scottish partnership forum, we have put that philosophy into practice. We have brought together NHS staff, trade unions, management and Government, not across the table, but around it. We have worked together to deliver real improvements: the first ever education, training and lifelong learning strategy for the NHS in Scotland, the soon-to-be-launched occupational health and safety strategy for NHS staff and other products of partnership working, such as the millennium pay deal and action to reduce junior doctors' working hours. Those are real improvements for NHS employees, which in turn deliver real improvements to NHS patients.

The partnership approach is now being developed at local level and, over the months ahead, I want to ensure that partnership working becomes a reality across the NHS in Scotland. There is no one better placed to help shape the future of the NHS than the people who work in it. I want them to be at the heart of the decision- making process.

Alongside that, I will be working to bring about a step change in the way in which the NHS—locally and nationally—communicates and engages with the wider public. The NHS belongs to the people of Scotland. They must feel that it does.

It will not be easy to achieve that change in culture. It will take years, not months, to make it happen, but happen it must. Local communities and local elected representatives have a right to know who takes decisions and why they are taken and must have the opportunity to contribute to the decision-making process.

The remote and faceless NHS boardroom of the internal market must become a thing of the past. Next month, I plan to meet all NHS board and trust chairmen to discuss with them how that change can be achieved. Over the coming months, I will be taking steps to attract a far wider pool of people into NHS boardrooms.

As a first step, I am writing to every MSP of every political hue to ask them to identify people in their local communities who could make a contribution in NHS boardrooms. That new sprit of openness, accountability and inclusion must extend to patients. A patient-centred NHS must be more than just a slogan—it must become a way of life.

That is why, in our programme for government, we committed ourselves to developing the patients project, which will aim fundamentally to change and improve the way in which the NHS communicates with patients through every stage in their journey: from GP surgery to out-patient clinic, from hospital to home. That work, which will draw widely on the views and experiences of patients themselves, will start in earnest early in the new year.

As well as keeping patients informed, we must work to reduce delays throughout the system. No single issue dominates my mailbag more than that. Such delays provoke a fear of the unknown: patients and their relatives wait and worry, not knowing what will happen next or when or where it will happen.

Our investment in a modern telecommunications system, linking up all GPs and hospitals in Scotland, will mean that, by 2002, patients will be able to leave their GP practice knowing when and where their out-patient appointment will be. Early next year, we will launch the first pilots of Scottish

NHS Direct, designed here in Scotland with the active participation of GPs and nurses. It will provide high-quality expert nursing advice via the telephone, 24 hours a day.

Our work does not end there. In our programme for government, we committed ourselves to set targets for speeding up treatment and shortening waiting times. Over the past few months, an expert support force has been working with the NHS across Scotland to explore how best we can do that.

Doctors, nurses and patients' representatives have told us that we have to tackle the inequalities in waiting times across Scotland, and that we have to address all the stages of a patient's journey through the NHS, not just one part of it. They have told us to redesign that journey so that it is not only faster but better planned, with realistic timetables that are met day in, day out, so that patients can have confidence that promises will be kept. I intend to heed their advice.

That is why I can announce today that, over the coming months, we will be working with the NHS to establish national maximum waiting times to be met by March 2001 in the key clinical priorities of heart disease, cancer and, for the first time, mental illness.

Much of that work will be achieved through the redesign of existing services. It can be done. We know that because, in many cases, it has been done. For example, the cataract redesign project in Ayrshire has resulted in the waiting time being reduced from 12 months to six weeks. Think of the difference that that makes for an elderly person waiting for a cataract operation. I want that approach to be rolled out across the country. That is why we will double the number of one-stop clinics and why we will work with NHS staff to support staff in the modernisation and redesign of services.

There will be a new alliance for patients, in which the Executive will work together with staff to deliver a new type of patient-centred care where services are made to fit people, not the other way about.

To achieve such changes and to deliver services in Scotland that can be the envy of the world, we must change the way in which the NHS delivers care. We must build on success, using innovative service design, our leading-edge work in clinical standards and our new approaches to multidisciplinary working. However, that process of modernisation and improvement also requires us to tear down some of the relics of the NHS of the past, including the outdated ways of working and, sometimes, the outdated buildings and shells that house them.

That will require hard decisions: a new way of

doing things; a new alliance of interests—an alliance for patients; a modernisation of people and priorities rather than just of technology and terrain. The NHS is not just about bricks and mortar—it is about the people who provide care and the quality of care that people receive, in hospital or increasingly in their community or home.

Fifty years ago, when most of our hospitals were built, they were the home of services because there was no other way of delivering them. Today, they are a hub for many services because so much more can now be delivered away from a hospital setting—in GP surgeries, community health centres and at home, with the support of health visitors and other community-based health care professionals.

Of course, we need new facilities. That is why there will be nearly £500 million of new hospital developments between now and 2002. That is why we are developing a new generation of walk-inwalk- out hospitals that harness new technologies and the benefits of day surgery.

Throughout Scotland, a process of reviewing local facilities is now taking place, to give people the best possible quality of care. That process will draw the blueprint of a new NHS. Our aim is to deliver local, convenient services wherever possible. It will be an NHS that will not shirk from the need to provide first-class treatment of the highest quality, because quality matters.

The reviews will propose changes to services. They will be changes for the better. Let me set another challenge to members.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C714566", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 757.0, "ContributionID": 714566, "EditedText": "Absolutely.", "EditedTextHTML": "Absolutely.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1823E145P193C714575", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jamieson, Margaret", "ID": 1823, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Kilmarnock and Loudoun" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Jamieson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Margaret Jamieson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 775.0, "ContributionID": 714575, "EditedText": "I thank Kay Ullrich very much. She said that staff at Lennox Castle hospital are being bribed. The staff at Lennox Castle hospital have never been bribed in their lives. They are dedicated servants of the national health service, and she should accept that.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank Kay Ullrich very much. She said that staff at Lennox Castle hospital are being bribed. The staff at Lennox Castle hospital have never been bribed in their lives. They are dedicated servants of the national health service, and she should accept that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1811E172P455C714571", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ullrich, Kay", "ID": 1811, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kay Ullrich", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Kay Ullrich: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 767.0, "ContributionID": 714571, "EditedText": "I am sure that the minister is writing that down as I speak. Certainly, Alan Milburn has admitted that there is rationing south of the border. We must try to get an answer here, as the people of Scotland are waiting for one. The Executive motion boasts of its investment in the NHS, and talks of building a 21st-century national health service. If that is the case, can somebody tell me why, as we enter the new millennium, 2,000 elderly people are languishing in inappropriate acute hospital beds, unable to get the long-term care that they need? Why, in this day and age, are members of staff at Lennox Castle hospital being bribed to take patients into their homes, simply because the Executive will not put its money where its mouth is when it comes to patient-centred care in the community? Interruption. I can hear a budgie, but I do not know where it is.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sure that the minister is writing that down as I speak. Certainly, Alan Milburn has admitted that there is rationing south of the border. We must try to get an answer here, as the people of Scotland are waiting for one.

The Executive motion boasts of its investment in the NHS, and talks of building a 21st-century national health service. If that is the case, can somebody tell me why, as we enter the new millennium, 2,000 elderly people are languishing in inappropriate acute hospital beds, unable to get the long-term care that they need? Why, in this day and age, are members of staff at Lennox Castle hospital being bribed to take patients into their homes, simply because the Executive will not put its money where its mouth is when it comes to patient-centred care in the community? [Interruption.] I can hear a budgie, but I do not know where it is.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C714573", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 771.0, "ContributionID": 714573, "EditedText": "The budgie noise has stopped and the member has a chance to take a question.", "EditedTextHTML": "The budgie noise has stopped and the member has a chance to take a question.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1811E172P455C714576", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ullrich, Kay", "ID": 1811, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kay Ullrich", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Kay Ullrich: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 777.0, "ContributionID": 714576, "EditedText": "The staff at Lennox Castle hospital are in danger of losing their jobs in 2002. Instead of being redeployed in appropriate settings, the option has been created whereby they will be paid benefits to take someone into their home. That, surely, is the wrong motivation for someone who is being asked to care 24 hours a day for somebody who is severely disabled. We now know, from Jack McConnell's budget statement, that the real-terms increase in health spending in Scotland, next year, will amount to 0.8 per cent, although the equivalent increase in England will be 4.4 per cent. According to the UK pay review body reports on the pay increase for health service staff, that increase is likely to settle at around 3 per cent. As a result, the health service in England will be able to cope with the increase, but the health service in Scotland will not. Therefore, the Executive must either provide extra money to cover the increase or make cuts in other areas of the health budget to meet the pay settlement. Can the minister advise us which it will be? I am running out of time, but I am sure that my colleagues will address other issues. In conclusion, I say to the minister that she should come out from behind the smoke and mirrors. She should forget the glossy brochures; it is time for the spinning to stop before it is too late. Let us have an open and honest debate about the state and, indeed, the very future of the health service in Scotland that we both value so much. I move amendment S1M-383.1, to leave out from \"recognises\" to end and insert: \"regrets the lower rise in health spending in Scotland in comparison with England, in spite of the widening gap in poverty and ill health between north and south; opposes the continued reliance on PFI, and calls upon the Scottish Executive to accept its responsibility to provide adequate resources in order to support a National Health Service in Scotland fit for the 21st Century.\"", "EditedTextHTML": "The staff at Lennox Castle hospital are in danger of losing their jobs in 2002. Instead of being redeployed in appropriate settings, the option has been created whereby they will be paid benefits to take someone into their home. That, surely, is the wrong motivation for someone who is being asked to care 24 hours a day for somebody who is severely disabled.

We now know, from Jack McConnell's budget statement, that the real-terms increase in health spending in Scotland, next year, will amount to 0.8 per cent, although the equivalent increase in England will be 4.4 per cent. According to the UK pay review body reports on the pay increase for health service staff, that increase is likely to settle at around 3 per cent. As a result, the health service in England will be able to cope with the increase, but the health service in Scotland will not. Therefore, the Executive must either provide extra money to cover the increase or make cuts in other areas of the health budget to meet the pay settlement. Can the minister advise us which it will be?

I am running out of time, but I am sure that my colleagues will address other issues. In conclusion, I say to the minister that she should come out from behind the smoke and mirrors. She should forget the glossy brochures; it is time for the spinning to stop before it is too late. Let us have an open and honest debate about the state and, indeed, the very future of the health service in Scotland that we both value so much.

I move amendment S1M-383.1, to leave out from \"recognises\" to end and insert:

\"regrets the lower rise in health spending in Scotland in comparison with England, in spite of the widening gap in poverty and ill health between north and south; opposes the continued reliance on PFI, and calls upon the Scottish Executive to accept its responsibility to provide adequate resources in order to support a National Health Service in Scotland fit for the 21st Century.\"

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1823E145P193C714578", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jamieson, Margaret", "ID": 1823, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Kilmarnock and Loudoun" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Jamieson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Margaret Jamieson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 782.0, "ContributionID": 714578, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C714579", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 784.0, "ContributionID": 714579, "EditedText": "No.When I visited Oban last week, local doctors asked what was happening to the health service there, what was happening to serve the islands, and whether people from Islay, Tiree and Mull will have to go to Paisley for breast cancer screening. I told them that I do not know. They do not know either. Lectures on partnership and consultation may sound grand in here, but the people outside this chamber are not hearing the minister. Consultation, partnership, accountability and involvement do not come from focus groups. That is something the minister must learn. They do not come from strategies, commitments, reviews, spin-doctors or, indeed, the latest £7.95 glossy brochure. That will do a lot to tackle the problems of women on low incomes living in Shettleston who want to stop smoking.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

When I visited Oban last week, local doctors asked what was happening to the health service there, what was happening to serve the islands, and whether people from Islay, Tiree and Mull will have to go to Paisley for breast cancer screening. I told them that I do not know. They do not know either. Lectures on partnership and consultation may sound grand in here, but the people outside this chamber are not hearing the minister. Consultation, partnership, accountability and involvement do not come from focus groups. That is something the minister must learn. They do not come from strategies, commitments, reviews, spin-doctors or, indeed, the latest £7.95 glossy brochure. That will do a lot to tackle the problems of women on low incomes living in Shettleston who want to stop smoking.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C714589", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 804.0, "ContributionID": 714589, "EditedText": "The member has less than one minute in which to wind up.", "EditedTextHTML": "The member has less than one minute in which to wind up.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C714591", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 808.0, "ContributionID": 714591, "EditedText": "Please close.", "EditedTextHTML": "Please close.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C714592", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 810.0, "ContributionID": 714592, "EditedText": "My final point is about the gross distortion of clinical priorities, which has led to people waiting longer to see a consultant, fewer nurses, decision making being taken from general practitioners and consultants being paid thousands of pounds to do minor operations over weekends while major operations have to wait longer. The minister's commitment to the national health service failed. Public accountability failed. Partnership failed. Working with the NHS and the Scottish people failed. Working with the Health and Community Care Committee failed, without even a mark for effort. Now is the time for the minister to accept responsibility and to address real health needs, instead of laughing at points that are seriously made. The minister has maladministered health in this country. I move amendment S1M-383.3, to leave out from \"welcomes\" to end and insert: \"but condemns Labour's centralisation and increase in bureaucracy within the NHS and the Executive's folly of pursuing a raw waiting list target that has led to the negation of its promises on health; notes with concern the overspend by health boards in the current year, the increasing levels of bed blocking and the failure of the Arbuthnott Report to address inequality in health spending; believes that the development of a modern NHS depends on a sustained programme of service redesign, greater public accountability and involvement and true partnership working across the NHS in Scotland, and calls upon the Scottish Executive to make the reduction of waiting times and access to treatment on the basis of clinical need its top priority for all the NHS in Scotland.\"", "EditedTextHTML": "My final point is about the gross distortion of clinical priorities, which has led to people waiting longer to see a consultant, fewer nurses, decision making being taken from general practitioners and consultants being paid thousands of pounds to do minor operations over weekends while major operations have to wait longer.

The minister's commitment to the national health service failed. Public accountability failed. Partnership failed. Working with the NHS and the Scottish people failed. Working with the Health and Community Care Committee failed, without even a mark for effort. Now is the time for the minister to accept responsibility and to address real health needs, instead of laughing at points that are seriously made. The minister has maladministered health in this country.

I move amendment S1M-383.3, to leave out from \"welcomes\" to end and insert:

\"but condemns Labour's centralisation and increase in bureaucracy within the NHS and the Executive's folly of pursuing a raw waiting list target that has led to the negation of its promises on health; notes with concern the overspend by health boards in the current year, the increasing levels of bed blocking and the failure of the Arbuthnott Report to address inequality in health spending;

believes that the development of a modern NHS depends on a sustained programme of service redesign, greater public accountability and involvement and true partnership working across the NHS in Scotland, and calls upon the Scottish Executive to make the reduction of waiting times and access to treatment on the basis of clinical need its top priority for all the NHS in Scotland.\"

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2185E120P328C714593", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Brown, Robert", "ID": 2185, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robert Brown", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robert Brown (Glasgow) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 813.0, "ContributionID": 714593, "EditedText": "My ears are fair birling after the diatribes we have heard today. I confess that I have not had such a depressing experience for a long time and it was exacerbated by the fact that Kay Ullrich had the nerve to give us all that negative stuff for eight to 10 minutes and then depart—she did not have the courtesy to listen to the rest of the debate. The NHS is an institution to whose achievements all parties in the state have contributed. It is right to recognise that at the beginning, even though that is why it is the hot stuff of ardent political debate. It is also right to emphasise the point that Susan Deacon made: the achievements of the NHS are the achievements of its staff, often in spite of the system. They are the achievements of nurses who are paid less than they should be, of doctors who work longer than they should, of consultants who develop pioneering techniques, and even of managers who try to organise everything efficiently. I would not like to do a job burdened by the knowledge that my mistake could cost a human life. In the 1980s, the Conservative Government tried to remodel the structure. In my view, it got it profoundly wrong. It genuinely thought that the changes would improve the structure, but it was at the price of millions of pounds in unproductive bureaucracy. In 1997, the Labour Government came in with its fixation about waiting lists—that was a product of policy priorities being driven by spin-doctors who were concerned with electoral considerations. Labour got it wrong again, and the waiting-list obsession seriously distorted NHS priorities. However, Labour managed to get rid of the internal market structure. Today, we are getting back on course. The minister's statement, which has not even been touched on in the speeches that have been made so far, about the importance of waiting times rather than waiting lists is welcome and right. Incidentally, it also shows the power and influence of the Liberal Democrat input to the Scottish partnership. Our commitment to the national health service forms a solid line going from Lloyd George and Beveridge, through our support for the abolition of eye test and dental charges—on which the Executive has also made progress—to the decision on waiting times today. This is a major coup for my party and a testament to the common sense of the minister. It is also a testament to the potential for radical reform of this Parliament, fairly elected as it is, and our partnership Executive.", "EditedTextHTML": "My ears are fair birling after the diatribes we have heard today. I confess that I have not had such a depressing experience for a long time and it was exacerbated by the fact that Kay Ullrich had the nerve to give us all that negative stuff for eight to 10 minutes and then depart—she did not have the courtesy to listen to the rest of the debate.

The NHS is an institution to whose achievements all parties in the state have contributed. It is right to recognise that at the beginning, even though that is why it is the hot stuff of ardent political debate.

It is also right to emphasise the point that Susan Deacon made: the achievements of the NHS are the achievements of its staff, often in spite of the system. They are the achievements of nurses who are paid less than they should be, of doctors who work longer than they should, of consultants who develop pioneering techniques, and even of managers who try to organise everything efficiently. I would not like to do a job burdened by the knowledge that my mistake could cost a human life.

In the 1980s, the Conservative Government tried to remodel the structure. In my view, it got it profoundly wrong. It genuinely thought that the changes would improve the structure, but it was at the price of millions of pounds in unproductive bureaucracy.

In 1997, the Labour Government came in with its fixation about waiting lists—that was a product of policy priorities being driven by spin-doctors who were concerned with electoral considerations. Labour got it wrong again, and the waiting-list obsession seriously distorted NHS priorities. However, Labour managed to get rid of the internal market structure.

Today, we are getting back on course. The minister's statement, which has not even been touched on in the speeches that have been made so far, about the importance of waiting times rather than waiting lists is welcome and right. Incidentally, it also shows the power and influence of the Liberal Democrat input to the Scottish partnership.

Our commitment to the national health service forms a solid line going from Lloyd George and Beveridge, through our support for the abolition of eye test and dental charges—on which the Executive has also made progress—to the decision on waiting times today. This is a major coup for my party and a testament to the common sense of the minister. It is also a testament to the potential for radical reform of this Parliament, fairly elected as it is, and our partnership Executive.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2185E120P328C714595", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Brown, Robert", "ID": 2185, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robert Brown", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robert Brown: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 817.0, "ContributionID": 714595, "EditedText": "It is worth mentioning that all parties in this chamber are minorities and have to deal with the reality of the political situation that obtains. Through the partnership agreement, my party has significant achievements to its credit, which is more than can be said for the SNP and the Tories. The minister announced today that—", "EditedTextHTML": "It is worth mentioning that all parties in this chamber are minorities and have to deal with the reality of the political situation that obtains. Through the partnership agreement, my party has significant achievements to its credit, which is more than can be said for the SNP and the Tories.

The minister announced today that—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1985E207P501C714596", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hamilton, Mr Duncan", "ID": 1985, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Hamilton: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 819.0, "ContributionID": 714596, "EditedText": "Will Mr Brown give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr Brown give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1985E207P501C714603", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hamilton, Mr Duncan", "ID": 1985, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Hamilton: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 833.0, "ContributionID": 714603, "EditedText": "Mr Brown listed the successes of the Liberal Democrats. Presumably, one of those successes was to have the convener of the Health and Community Care Committee chosen from their ranks. Does he approve of the Executive's attitude to that committee's report?", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Brown listed the successes of the Liberal Democrats. Presumably, one of those successes was to have the convener of the Health and Community Care Committee chosen from their ranks. Does he approve of the Executive's attitude to that committee's report?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1865E219P509C714605", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "White, Sandra", "ID": 1865, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sandra White", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Sandra White (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 837.0, "ContributionID": 714605, "EditedText": "Will Mr Brown give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr Brown give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2185E120P328C714608", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Brown, Robert", "ID": 2185, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robert Brown", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robert Brown: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 843.0, "ContributionID": 714608, "EditedText": "I shall not give way; I want to continue with my speech. The Liberal Democrats believe that the Chancellor of the Exchequer could release funds from his somewhat bloated and growing balances to invest more resources in health services, not just in Scotland but throughout Britain, not least to resolve the major challenges that face us in Glasgow. What are we to make of an Opposition party that demands that the Scottish Executive provide adequate resources to support the NHS in Scotland? We have heard not one word about the extent of the resources. Perhaps we shall, later in the debate. Are the resources on top of, or a substitute for, the £1,381 million of spending commitments from the SNP, which Keith Raffan so devastatingly dealt with in yesterday's debate? If Andrew Wilson—who also is not here today— is, in Keith's words, the jelly shadow chancellor, Kay Ullrich is Goldilocks, complaining that the evil English have eaten the porridge of health service resources. She seems unaware—in her motion, not in her speech—that there is a ravenous horde of SNP shadow ministers behind her. They may not be teddy bears, but they have certainly gobbled up an ever-increasing amount of fictitious resources in a multi-billion pound wish list.", "EditedTextHTML": "I shall not give way; I want to continue with my speech. The Liberal Democrats believe that the Chancellor of the Exchequer could release funds from his somewhat bloated and growing balances to invest more resources in health services, not just in Scotland but throughout

Britain, not least to resolve the major challenges that face us in Glasgow.

What are we to make of an Opposition party that demands that the Scottish Executive provide adequate resources to support the NHS in Scotland? We have heard not one word about the extent of the resources. Perhaps we shall, later in the debate. Are the resources on top of, or a substitute for, the £1,381 million of spending commitments from the SNP, which Keith Raffan so devastatingly dealt with in yesterday's debate?

If Andrew Wilson—who also is not here today— is, in Keith's words, the jelly shadow chancellor, Kay Ullrich is Goldilocks, complaining that the evil English have eaten the porridge of health service resources. She seems unaware—in her motion, not in her speech—that there is a ravenous horde of SNP shadow ministers behind her. They may not be teddy bears, but they have certainly gobbled up an ever-increasing amount of fictitious resources in a multi-billion pound wish list.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2185E120P328C714610", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Brown, Robert", "ID": 2185, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robert Brown", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robert Brown: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 847.0, "ContributionID": 714610, "EditedText": "Margo MacDonald makes a valid point. I have succumbed to the temptation to try to respond to the Opposition's approach to the debate. The fact is that health spending under this Administration will be greater in real terms than ever before. It will also represent a greater share of national wealth than before. There is an endless list of demands on health resources, so it is important that we get the best out of them. As a Glasgow member, I am particularly concerned about greater Glasgow. It has many Victorian buildings—not 50-year-old buildings, but Victorian buildings. Often, they are in the wrong place, which hampers the effective provision of secondary care in the city. If we are to move towards the modern system that we require, I hope that the minister will find it possible to ease the transition by providing access to more capital funding in a way that will not impose an unacceptable revenue burden on Glasgow's health services. I will make two points to finish. The first relates to the National Audit Office report on ambulance services, which we heard about earlier this week. Is the minister prepared to look at ambulance service funding, bearing in mind the requirement on it to meet target times, and that training for paramedics in Scotland has ground to a halt? I will finish by reverting to the main point, whichis the dedication of NHS staff and the potential of the service. The challenge for Parliament is to tap that hidden resource more effectively and productively. That would be assisted by what I cautiously call a dynamic and positive relationship with the Health and Community Care Committee. The minister's announcements today set us on the right road and I hope that later in the debate we will hear more about the real issues that face the NHS, and not the resource issue that we have had to deal with in so much detail today.", "EditedTextHTML": "Margo MacDonald makes a valid point. I have succumbed to the temptation to try to respond to the Opposition's approach to the debate. The fact is that health spending under this Administration will be greater in real terms than ever before. It will also represent a greater share of national wealth than before.

There is an endless list of demands on health resources, so it is important that we get the best out of them. As a Glasgow member, I am particularly concerned about greater Glasgow. It has many Victorian buildings—not 50-year-old buildings, but Victorian buildings. Often, they are in the wrong place, which hampers the effective provision of secondary care in the city. If we are to move towards the modern system that we require, I hope that the minister will find it possible to ease the transition by providing access to more capital funding in a way that will not impose an unacceptable revenue burden on Glasgow's health services.

I will make two points to finish. The first relates to the National Audit Office report on ambulance services, which we heard about earlier this week. Is the minister prepared to look at ambulance service funding, bearing in mind the requirement on it to meet target times, and that training for paramedics in Scotland has ground to a halt?

I will finish by reverting to the main point, which

is the dedication of NHS staff and the potential of the service. The challenge for Parliament is to tap that hidden resource more effectively and productively. That would be assisted by what I cautiously call a dynamic and positive relationship with the Health and Community Care Committee. The minister's announcements today set us on the right road and I hope that later in the debate we will hear more about the real issues that face the NHS, and not the resource issue that we have had to deal with in so much detail today.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C714611", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Richard Simpson (Ochil) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 850.0, "ContributionID": 714611, "EditedText": "I was disappointed by the speeches of Kay Ullrich and Mary Scanlon. They are much more positive in the Health and Community Care Committee than they are in the chamber. Perhaps the chamber brings out the worst in people. Certainly, the amendments—", "EditedTextHTML": "I was disappointed by the speeches of Kay Ullrich and Mary Scanlon. They are much more positive in the Health and Community Care Committee than they are in the chamber. Perhaps the chamber brings out the worst in people. Certainly, the amendments—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C714613", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Simpson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 854.0, "ContributionID": 714613, "EditedText": "Not at the moment. I would rather get into my stride and then Mr Monteith can trip me up, or attempt to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Not at the moment. I would rather get into my stride and then Mr Monteith can trip me up, or attempt to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1985E207P501C714616", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hamilton, Mr Duncan", "ID": 1985, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Hamilton: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 860.0, "ContributionID": 714616, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1985E207P501C714623", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hamilton, Mr Duncan", "ID": 1985, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Hamilton: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 874.0, "ContributionID": 714623, "EditedText": "They are your figures.", "EditedTextHTML": "They are your figures.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C714626", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Simpson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 880.0, "ContributionID": 714626, "EditedText": "They also agreed with my intervention, which was far more measured and talked about the need for redesign. Is the SNP really telling us that it wants to stick to the current health service, with no changes, even if that means poor clinical services? The SNP is encouraging the public to be enthralled to bricks and mortar rather than considering the redesign of services.", "EditedTextHTML": "They also agreed with my intervention, which was far more measured and talked about the need for redesign. Is the SNP really telling us that it wants to stick to the current health service, with no changes, even if that means poor clinical services? The SNP is encouraging the public to be enthralled to bricks and mortar rather than considering the redesign of services.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C714627", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 882.0, "ContributionID": 714627, "EditedText": "Wind up, please.", "EditedTextHTML": "Wind up, please.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C714629", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 886.0, "ContributionID": 714629, "EditedText": "Very quickly.", "EditedTextHTML": "Very quickly.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C714631", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 890.0, "ContributionID": 714631, "EditedText": "Come to a close, please.", "EditedTextHTML": "Come to a close, please.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1762E216P508C714633", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Elder, Dorothy-Grace", "ID": 1762, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 895.0, "ContributionID": 714633, "EditedText": "We are getting to the stage when some of us feel that we need a swig of milk of magnesia, or some other stomach settler, before we can endure yet another sugary, apple-pie, self-congratulatory and smug motion from the Executive. The SNP, as the Opposition, has been accused of criticising the Executive today. We plead guilty; if we did not do that, we would be failing in our duty. We are criticised when Glasgow is represented in a new, official report by emblems of children's coffins to show its high child mortality rate. The motion is littered with the usual Orwellian newspeak, including that blancmange word \"partnerships\". In Glasgow, the partnership we need to dissolve is that between the public and the undertakers. It is shocking that the motion—and very shocking that the minister's statement—contains no pledge whatever about the grievous health of Glasgow and the west, after yet more confirmation that the north-south divide is shortening lives. As we enter a new millennium, that divide shows most in the contrast between people dying early in Scotland while in London over £800 million is being blown on a temporary dome so that London can celebrate the millennium. That is some United Kingdom. We could have built 10 new hospitals for that money; £800 million could have gone some way towards saving lives. But no, Scottish taxpayers' money is being squandered on Tony Blair's delusions of grandeur. Shame on the minister for going along with that. Let them eat cake? Her smug message is, \"Let them eat apple pie.\" Mr Blair seeks to deny that there is a north-south divide, but its existence has been proved by the report from Bristol's Townsend Centre for International Poverty Research. It shows that the people of Glasgow are dying of bad health through political neglect. Today, we should have heard an announcement of massive emergency aid for Glasgow and the west, to stop people dying. The gap is widening under Blair. He has had two and a half years, but has done absolutely nothing radical. The Executive is doing nothing radical either. Last year, Professor Phil Hanlon, professor of public health at the University of Glasgow, warned of the widening gap between north and south, saying that life expectancy in central Scotland was comparable to that in the former East Germany. Bristol University's report, \"The Widening Gap\", found that six of Glasgow's constituencies—out of more than 600 constituencies in Britain—topped the list of the UK's most unhealthy areas. Glasgow has been confirmed as the worst place in Britain for infant mortality rates, chronic illness and early death. As the report points out, what a record that is for a Labour area. All the Executive can do today is produce another slice of apple pie and body swerve a Scottish health disaster. What does the motion say to Shettleston?", "EditedTextHTML": "We are getting to the stage when some of us feel that we need a swig of milk of magnesia, or some other stomach settler, before we can endure yet another sugary, apple-pie, self-congratulatory and smug motion from the Executive.

The SNP, as the Opposition, has been accused of criticising the Executive today. We plead guilty; if we did not do that, we would be failing in our duty. We are criticised when Glasgow is represented in a new, official report by emblems of children's coffins to show its high child mortality rate. The motion is littered with the usual Orwellian newspeak, including that blancmange word \"partnerships\". In Glasgow, the partnership we need to dissolve is that between the public and the undertakers.

It is shocking that the motion—and very shocking that the minister's statement—contains no pledge whatever about the grievous health of Glasgow and the west, after yet more confirmation that the north-south divide is shortening lives. As we enter a new millennium, that divide shows most in the contrast between people dying early in Scotland while in London over £800 million is being blown on a temporary dome so that London can celebrate the millennium. That is some United Kingdom. We could have built 10 new hospitals for that money; £800 million could have gone some way towards saving lives. But no, Scottish taxpayers' money is being squandered on Tony Blair's delusions of grandeur. Shame on the minister for going along with that. Let them eat cake? Her smug message is, \"Let them eat apple pie.\"

Mr Blair seeks to deny that there is a north-south divide, but its existence has been proved by the report from Bristol's Townsend Centre for International Poverty Research. It shows that the people of Glasgow are dying of bad health through political neglect. Today, we should have heard an announcement of massive emergency aid for Glasgow and the west, to stop people dying. The gap is widening under Blair. He has had two and a half years, but has done absolutely nothing radical. The Executive is doing nothing radical either.

Last year, Professor Phil Hanlon, professor of public health at the University of Glasgow, warned of the widening gap between north and south, saying that life expectancy in central Scotland was comparable to that in the former East Germany.

Bristol University's report, \"The Widening Gap\", found that six of Glasgow's constituencies—out of more than 600 constituencies in Britain—topped the list of the UK's most unhealthy areas. Glasgow has been confirmed as the worst place in Britain for infant mortality rates, chronic illness and early death. As the report points out, what a record that is for a Labour area.

All the Executive can do today is produce another slice of apple pie and body swerve a Scottish health disaster. What does the motion say to Shettleston?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1762E216P508C714635", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Elder, Dorothy-Grace", "ID": 1762, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 899.0, "ContributionID": 714635, "EditedText": "I am sorry, I am in full steam and I will not be interrupted. Shettleston is top of that shameful list. It is No 1. There, people are 2.3 times more likely to die before the age of 65 than are people in Wokingham or Romsey. Gordon Brown proposes to give free television licences to people aged over 75—in Glasgow, many do not live that long. The Executive dares to rise for Christmas without pledging the massive emergency aid that it knows is necessary. Gordon Brown, son of the manse, is a disgrace, with his inhumane lack of funding to overcome ill health and poverty. That man sits atop a £15 billion war chest, rakes in billions from Scotland and wastes billions on Trident, rather than putting some of that money into Scottish health. Come to Glasgow, minister, and try a slice of humble pie instead of apple pie.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry, I am in full steam and I will not be interrupted.

Shettleston is top of that shameful list. It is No 1. There, people are 2.3 times more likely to die before the age of 65 than are people in Wokingham or Romsey. Gordon Brown proposes to give free television licences to people aged over 75—in Glasgow, many do not live that long.

The Executive dares to rise for Christmas without pledging the massive emergency aid that it knows is necessary. Gordon Brown, son of the manse, is a disgrace, with his inhumane lack of funding to overcome ill health and poverty. That man sits atop a £15 billion war chest, rakes in billions from Scotland and wastes billions on Trident, rather than putting some of that money into Scottish health.

Come to Glasgow, minister, and try a slice of humble pie instead of apple pie.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2234E7P20C714637", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Aitken, Bill", "ID": 2234, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bill Aitken", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bill Aitken (Glasgow) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 905.0, "ContributionID": 714637, "EditedText": "I was interested in Cathy Jamieson's speech and pleased that she was so content with the East Ayrshire community hospital. I wonder whether she will draw to the attention of her constituents the fact that the invitation to tender was approved by Michael Forsyth. Donald Dewar simply signed the contract.", "EditedTextHTML": "I was interested in Cathy Jamieson's speech and pleased that she was so content with the East Ayrshire community hospital. I wonder whether she will draw to the attention of her constituents the fact that the invitation to tender was approved by Michael Forsyth. Donald Dewar simply signed the contract.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1828E200P487C714640", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacDonald, Margo", "ID": 1828, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margo MacDonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Margo MacDonald (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 912.0, "ContributionID": 714640, "EditedText": "I listened intently to the minister being interviewed on \"Good Morning Scotland\" this morning because I had not made much sense of the motion as it appeared in the business bulletin. I thought that I was listening to a snow warning because of the flurry of words that all seemed to run together. The words were reminiscent of the ones that are used in the chamber when members discuss the radical restructuring of the national health service in Scotland, which is what I think the minister was promising in her speech. What will be the difference between this radical restructuring and that introduced by Sam Galbraith when he was the Under-Secretary of State for Health? I think it was \"Designed to Care\" that he introduced. Much of the same terminology was used in the minister's speech today. My question concerns the radical restructuring of the NHS and the move away from old hospitals to what will presumably be bright, shiny, community-based service providers. Will they be provided by son of PFI? Is that where the money will come from? I see that Richard Simpson is as intrigued by this as I am. Richard, I am sure—I apologise, Presiding Officer, for speaking directly to the member. I am sure that we would all like to know whether any limit is to be put on the extent of PFI involvement in this new community service provision. None of us disagrees with that—we think that there should be a switch away from old and unsuitable hospitals—but what is the new service provision to be? We know, from what the minister and other members of the Executive have said, that there are cash limits on this brave new world. Unfortunately, those limits are not set by the minister in this chamber, but by her pal in London. But hey, that is the downside of devolution. People have got to take the budget they are handed and fit hospitals inside its parameters. If I am to believe what I am told by the Lothian Local Medical Committee, there is not a snowball's chance of their being able to bring about the quality of community-based service that all of us— including the minister, I am sure—would like, if they are also lumbered with having to implement the radical restructuring of Arbuthnott.There has not been much reference to Arbuthnott today, and I hope that members will indulge me for a minute, because I represent Lothian and we are the losers. I heard the minister refer to what was to be spent on mental health and on people with learning disabilities and so on. I cannot but refer back to the effect of Arbuthnott on Lothian's spend. We will lose £5 million from the Lothian budget in terms of spending on older people and £5.5 million in terms of spending on mental health provision.", "EditedTextHTML": "I listened intently to the minister being interviewed on \"Good Morning Scotland\" this morning because I had not made much sense of the motion as it appeared in the business bulletin. I thought that I was listening to a snow warning because of the flurry of words that all seemed to run together. The words were reminiscent of the ones that are used in the chamber when members discuss the radical restructuring of the national health service in Scotland, which is what I think the minister was promising in her speech.

What will be the difference between this radical restructuring and that introduced by Sam Galbraith when he was the Under-Secretary of State for Health? I think it was \"Designed to Care\" that he introduced. Much of the same terminology was used in the minister's speech today. My question concerns the radical restructuring of the NHS and the move away from old hospitals to what will presumably be bright, shiny, community-based service providers. Will they be provided by son of PFI? Is that where the money will come from?

I see that Richard Simpson is as intrigued by this as I am. Richard, I am sure—I apologise, Presiding Officer, for speaking directly to the member. I am sure that we would all like to know whether any limit is to be put on the extent of PFI involvement in this new community service provision. None of us disagrees with that—we think that there should be a switch away from old and unsuitable hospitals—but what is the new service provision to be? We know, from what the minister and other members of the Executive have said, that there are cash limits on this brave new world. Unfortunately, those limits are not set by the minister in this chamber, but by her pal in London.

But hey, that is the downside of devolution. People have got to take the budget they are handed and fit hospitals inside its parameters. If I am to believe what I am told by the Lothian Local Medical Committee, there is not a snowball's chance of their being able to bring about the quality of community-based service that all of us— including the minister, I am sure—would like, if they are also lumbered with having to implement

the radical restructuring of Arbuthnott.

There has not been much reference to Arbuthnott today, and I hope that members will indulge me for a minute, because I represent Lothian and we are the losers. I heard the minister refer to what was to be spent on mental health and on people with learning disabilities and so on. I cannot but refer back to the effect of Arbuthnott on Lothian's spend. We will lose £5 million from the Lothian budget in terms of spending on older people and £5.5 million in terms of spending on mental health provision.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1931E120P189C714641", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Muldoon, Bristow", "ID": 1931, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Livingston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bristow Muldoon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bristow Muldoon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 914.0, "ContributionID": 714641, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C714643", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Simpson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 918.0, "ContributionID": 714643, "EditedText": "One mistaken belief about Arbuthnott needs to be clarified. It means changes in increase in expenditure; no area will lose money. To hear Lothian officials talking about slashing their learning disabilities expenditure and moving people back into hospital is utterly disgraceful and is an unbelievable misperception of what will happen. Those officials should be severely reprimanded.", "EditedTextHTML": "One mistaken belief about Arbuthnott needs to be clarified. It means changes in increase in expenditure; no area will lose money. To hear Lothian officials talking about slashing their learning disabilities expenditure and moving people back into hospital is utterly disgraceful and is an unbelievable misperception of what will happen. Those officials should be severely reprimanded.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1828E200P487C714644", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacDonald, Margo", "ID": 1828, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margo MacDonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms MacDonald: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 920.0, "ContributionID": 714644, "EditedText": "I was not quoting Lothian Health officials, but referring to a letter I received from Dr Sandy Sutherland of the Lothian Local Medical Committee—one of Mr Simpson's colleagues, I am sure. He said: \"Beyond a shadow of a doubt the implementation of Arbuthnott would make that change undeliverable.\" The change he is referring to is the change to community-based services. I am impressed by that, because he is a professional. Although I take very seriously what Cathy Jamieson said about concentrating on patients and seeing the issue from their point of view, we must also take into account the professionals. In summary, when the minister comes to reply, I hope that she will give us some definitive answers on where the development money will come from to introduce two such radical restructurings at the same time.", "EditedTextHTML": "I was not quoting Lothian Health officials, but referring to a letter I received from Dr Sandy Sutherland of the Lothian Local Medical Committee—one of Mr Simpson's colleagues, I am sure. He said:

\"Beyond a shadow of a doubt the implementation of Arbuthnott would make that change undeliverable.\"

The change he is referring to is the change to community-based services. I am impressed by that, because he is a professional. Although I take very seriously what Cathy Jamieson said about concentrating on patients and seeing the issue from their point of view, we must also take into account the professionals.

In summary, when the minister comes to reply, I hope that she will give us some definitive answers on where the development money will come from to introduce two such radical restructurings at the same time.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1823E145P193C714645", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jamieson, Margaret", "ID": 1823, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Kilmarnock and Loudoun" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Jamieson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Margaret Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 923.0, "ContributionID": 714645, "EditedText": "As a member and former employee of the public sector trade union, Unison, and a former employee of the national health service, it gives me pleasure to contribute to this debate. It also gives me an opportunity to consider the amendment in the name of Mary Scanlon and express my amazement—", "EditedTextHTML": "As a member and former employee of the public sector trade union, Unison, and a former employee of the national health service, it gives me pleasure to contribute to this debate. It also gives me an opportunity to consider the amendment in the name of Mary Scanlon and express my amazement—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1823E145P193C714649", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jamieson, Margaret", "ID": 1823, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Kilmarnock and Loudoun" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Jamieson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Margaret Jamieson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 931.0, "ContributionID": 714649, "EditedText": "No, I do not have time.I welcome the opening up of the opportunities for people to sit on local health boards and trusts. If we are serious about accountability, it must be ordinary people who make decisions. Staff also need to be involved in the process. Rights for staff should be enshrined in the constitutions of health boards and trusts. When the minister examines the make-up of such boards, I ask her to consider setting aside a place for staff, giving them equal rights in the decision-making process.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I do not have time.

I welcome the opening up of the opportunities for people to sit on local health boards and trusts. If we are serious about accountability, it must be ordinary people who make decisions. Staff also need to be involved in the process. Rights for staff should be enshrined in the constitutions of health boards and trusts. When the minister examines the make-up of such boards, I ask her to consider setting aside a place for staff, giving them equal rights in the decision-making process.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1916E38P70C714654", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Ben", "ID": 1916, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ben Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ben Wallace (North-East Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 943.0, "ContributionID": 714654, "EditedText": "I welcome this opportunity to wind up the debate on behalf of the Scottish Conservative and Unionist party. When eventually I saw the proposed motion, and I heard the health minister's snarling response to the opening interventions, I thought that she might have been auditioning for a Christmas pantomime. The minister's motion makes no mention of the problems that are set to explode out of the health service in the new year, or of the problems that it faces today. While I agree with much of the text of her motion, I urge her to recognise the problems that exist here and now. It does not surprise me that the Executive's motion is couched in the usual flowery and woolly language—that is in line with its ambition of using the Parliament as a rubber stamp. The minister talks about the future, but the motion, as I said, makes no mention of future problems. In her opening remarks, she spent nine minutes talking about the past—not the future that she wanted us to talk about. Although I am aware that Santa Claus and fairy tales are what this Christmas is made of, it appears that, with her policy, the minister wants to be in one of those tales. After all, in the fairy-tale kingdom of Dewar-land, Nanny Deacon thinks all is well. In Dewar-land, new general practitioners' co-operation is flourishing, as are joint investment funds; in the real world, joint investment funds lie empty and GPs in the Highlands and Islands and in the Borders are having to prepare for cuts. In Dewar-land, waiting lists will come down, but in the real world, people are waiting to get on to the waiting lists. In Dewar-land, the Government insists that resources are not the issue and that health board reorganisation is delivering better services; in the real world, health boards are admitting to massive overspends and will have to close wards and reduce staff levels this winter. Indeed, on the health service, Labour spin is so far from reality that it belongs in never-never land. The Conservative record is clear—it is not fantasy and it is not spin. The biggest ever increase in health spending came in 1990 under the Conservative party. It was not this year, nor, as Labour claims, will it be next year. Of the eight new hospitals that have been trumpeted by Labour, four were approved by Ian Lang and Michael Forsyth. There are 164 fewer nurses in the NHS than there were in 1996, and there are 1,097 nursing vacancies.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome this opportunity to wind up the debate on behalf of the Scottish Conservative and Unionist party. When eventually I saw the proposed motion, and I heard the health minister's snarling response to the opening interventions, I thought that she might have been auditioning for a Christmas pantomime.

The minister's motion makes no mention of the problems that are set to explode out of the health service in the new year, or of the problems that it faces today. While I agree with much of the text of her motion, I urge her to recognise the problems that exist here and now. It does not surprise me that the Executive's motion is couched in the usual flowery and woolly language—that is in line with its ambition of using the Parliament as a rubber stamp.

The minister talks about the future, but the motion, as I said, makes no mention of future problems. In her opening remarks, she spent nine minutes talking about the past—not the future that she wanted us to talk about.

Although I am aware that Santa Claus and fairy tales are what this Christmas is made of, it appears that, with her policy, the minister wants to be in one of those tales. After all, in the fairy-tale kingdom of Dewar-land, Nanny Deacon thinks all

is well. In Dewar-land, new general practitioners' co-operation is flourishing, as are joint investment funds; in the real world, joint investment funds lie empty and GPs in the Highlands and Islands and in the Borders are having to prepare for cuts.

In Dewar-land, waiting lists will come down, but in the real world, people are waiting to get on to the waiting lists. In Dewar-land, the Government insists that resources are not the issue and that health board reorganisation is delivering better services; in the real world, health boards are admitting to massive overspends and will have to close wards and reduce staff levels this winter. Indeed, on the health service, Labour spin is so far from reality that it belongs in never-never land.

The Conservative record is clear—it is not fantasy and it is not spin. The biggest ever increase in health spending came in 1990 under the Conservative party. It was not this year, nor, as Labour claims, will it be next year. Of the eight new hospitals that have been trumpeted by Labour, four were approved by Ian Lang and Michael Forsyth. There are 164 fewer nurses in the NHS than there were in 1996, and there are 1,097 nursing vacancies.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1916E38P70C714656", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Ben", "ID": 1916, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ben Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ben Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 947.0, "ContributionID": 714656, "EditedText": "No, I am sorry. I have a lot to get through. The Government's ambitious hospital rebuilding plan is based on the private finance initiative—the Tory private finance initiative. How the worm has turned. We have heard many comments about how incredible it is that the Tories are criticising health policies. Now Labour members know how we feel when they defend policies such as the right to buy, uniform business rates, school league tables, Scottish Enterprise, privatisation of air traffic control, PFI and the retention of prescription charges. The Executive cannot escape the fact that its plans for the NHS are failing; no amount of fairy tales can hide that. Waiting lists are getting longer and are being manipulated. Hundreds of expensive beds across Scotland are being blocked, which increases the winter pressures. Furthermore, the minister's failure to match funding to Executive priorities on cancer and heart treatment means that drug budgets are soaking up resources that are needed elsewhere. All those problems have surfaced at the same time as an acute services review that is designed to shake up and improve treatment. I challenge anyone to say that any improvements will not be cost-driven. The Conservative party wants a more joined-up health service. There should be more social and health services partnerships, to ensure a fully zipped care system. We recognise that there are inequalities in the health service in Scotland and we welcome any measures to address that. I am aware that this is one of the last debates before Christmas. Winter will soon be upon the NHS, but the Executive's total failure to recognise the problems facing the health service is reflected in its motion. The Executive's dismissal without a moment's consideration of a considered report by the Health and Community Care Committee is testament to the fact that the Executive is in never- never land. Next year is the start of a new century, in which Susan Deacon should face up to the issues of rationing and funding. Like some ghost of Christmas future, I bring her a warning that if she does not recognise the failings of the health service today, the NHS will start the new millennium with a new crisis. Our amendment is about the future—it recognises today's problems in the hope that they will be solved by all of us for tomorrow. I commend it to the chamber.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I am sorry. I have a lot to get through.

The Government's ambitious hospital rebuilding plan is based on the private finance initiative—the Tory private finance initiative. How the worm has turned. We have heard many comments about how incredible it is that the Tories are criticising health policies. Now Labour members know how we feel when they defend policies such as the right to buy, uniform business rates, school league tables, Scottish Enterprise, privatisation of air traffic control, PFI and the retention of prescription charges.

The Executive cannot escape the fact that its plans for the NHS are failing; no amount of fairy tales can hide that. Waiting lists are getting longer and are being manipulated. Hundreds of expensive beds across Scotland are being blocked, which increases the winter pressures. Furthermore, the minister's failure to match funding to Executive priorities on cancer and heart treatment means that drug budgets are soaking up resources that are needed elsewhere.

All those problems have surfaced at the same time as an acute services review that is designed to shake up and improve treatment. I challenge anyone to say that any improvements will not be cost-driven.

The Conservative party wants a more joined-up health service. There should be more social and health services partnerships, to ensure a fully zipped care system. We recognise that there are inequalities in the health service in Scotland and we welcome any measures to address that.

I am aware that this is one of the last debates before Christmas. Winter will soon be upon the NHS, but the Executive's total failure to recognise the problems facing the health service is reflected in its motion. The Executive's dismissal without a moment's consideration of a considered report by the Health and Community Care Committee is testament to the fact that the Executive is in never- never land.

Next year is the start of a new century, in which Susan Deacon should face up to the issues of rationing and funding. Like some ghost of Christmas future, I bring her a warning that if she does not recognise the failings of the health service today, the NHS will start the new millennium with a new crisis.

Our amendment is about the future—it recognises today's problems in the hope that they will be solved by all of us for tomorrow. I commend it to the chamber.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1985E207P501C714663", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hamilton, Mr Duncan", "ID": 1985, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Hamilton: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 962.0, "ContributionID": 714663, "EditedText": "No. If you listen, you will hear what I have to say. Within hours of the report being published, when you clearly had not read the report, you said that you wanted to listen to the experts from Arbuthnott and that you would not want to listen to the committee. I suggest to you that that is arrogant.", "EditedTextHTML": "No. If you listen, you will hear what I have to say. Within hours of the report being published, when you clearly had not read the report, you said that you wanted to listen to the experts from Arbuthnott and that you would not want to listen to the committee. I suggest to you that that is arrogant.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C714664", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 964.0, "ContributionID": 714664, "EditedText": "Order. Mr Hamilton, you must address your remarks through the chair and not to me.", "EditedTextHTML": "Order. Mr Hamilton, you must address your remarks through the chair and not to me.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C714675", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 987.0, "ContributionID": 714675, "EditedText": "I do not want to mention England, except for comparison. While Iain Gray is on his feet, I implore him to intervene for Greater Glasgow Health Board— Interruption. Just a wee minute: I know Duncan McNeil has been sitting in the lounge having a coffee—just have a wee seat, Duncan. Given the fact that young children born in Shettleston are four times more likely to die before they are one year of age than young children in Woking in Surrey, can the deputy minister please intervene to argue against the closure of another maternity hospital in Glasgow? That is what is planned. We cannot suffer another closure.", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not want to mention England, except for comparison.

While Iain Gray is on his feet, I implore him to intervene for Greater Glasgow Health Board— [Interruption.] Just a wee minute: I know Duncan McNeil has been sitting in the lounge having a coffee—just have a wee seat, Duncan.

Given the fact that young children born in Shettleston are four times more likely to die before they are one year of age than young children in Woking in Surrey, can the deputy minister please intervene to argue against the closure of another maternity hospital in Glasgow? That is what is planned. We cannot suffer another closure.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2033E106P139C714676", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gray, Iain", "ID": 2033, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Pentlands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Iain Gray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Iain Gray: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 989.0, "ContributionID": 714676, "EditedText": "I will come to the change in services.As Tommy well knows, the Arbuthnott report, which members have mentioned, is about beginning to examine NHS spending and addressing the inequalities to which Tommy draws attention. Let us get the figures out of the way. Planned health expenditure this year is £5.075 billion; next year it is £5.243 billion; and the following year it is £5.556 billion. Those are real increases. They certainly dwarf the £35 million of annual additional spending promised to the Scottish people by the SNP manifesto in 1997. Those figures mean that health spending in Scotland this year is 20 per cent higher than in England. That is the reality. While we are on comparison, Kay Ullrich referred to Professor Gordon McVie.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will come to the change in services.

As Tommy well knows, the Arbuthnott report, which members have mentioned, is about beginning to examine NHS spending and addressing the inequalities to which Tommy draws attention.

Let us get the figures out of the way. Planned health expenditure this year is £5.075 billion; next year it is £5.243 billion; and the following year it is £5.556 billion. Those are real increases. They certainly dwarf the £35 million of annual additional spending promised to the Scottish people by the SNP manifesto in 1997. Those figures mean that health spending in Scotland this year is 20 per cent higher than in England. That is the reality.

While we are on comparison, Kay Ullrich referred to Professor Gordon McVie.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2033E106P139C714678", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gray, Iain", "ID": 2033, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Pentlands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Iain Gray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Iain Gray: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 993.0, "ContributionID": 714678, "EditedText": "No, I am sorry. I do not have enough time. Kay Ullrich omitted to mention that Professor McVie said specifically that Scotland was ahead of England in developing cancer services. We can do better—and we are doing better.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I am sorry. I do not have enough time.

Kay Ullrich omitted to mention that Professor McVie said specifically that Scotland was ahead of England in developing cancer services. We can do better—and we are doing better.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1762E216P508C714681", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Elder, Dorothy-Grace", "ID": 1762, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 999.0, "ContributionID": 714681, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C714684", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con) rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1005.0, "ContributionID": 714684, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C714687", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1011.0, "ContributionID": 714687, "EditedText": "Order. I agree. The minister is in his concluding minute—he should be heard quietly. Interruption. Order. Members should be quiet.", "EditedTextHTML": "Order. I agree. The minister is in his concluding minute—he should be heard quietly. [Interruption.] Order. Members should be quiet.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2033E106P139C714688", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gray, Iain", "ID": 2033, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Pentlands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Iain Gray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Iain Gray: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1013.0, "ContributionID": 714688, "EditedText": "Hugh can read what I said in the Official Report tomorrow. I suggest that he read what some members on other benches have said today, because it has been a disgrace. This is our last full debate this century. That is why the holiday that we must hold to is the new year. The new year debate must be about our resolution to modernise the NHS, to make it better as well as bigger. We must make it a health service that is delivered in modern buildings, using modern techniques that are not separate from but are in partnership with social care and social support, and which minimise anxiety as well as physical pain. The partnerships must respond to the patients' needs, not the service's procedures. I tell Tommy Sheridan that it will be a health service that addresses inequalities in health as well as inequalities in access to health. Beveridge and Bevan built the health service for their century. If we are big enough to build our health service for our people, for our century, we will have a 21st-century service for 21st-century men and women, for that is what we will be when we return to the chamber. That is the challenge to which we must rise. I ask members to support the motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "Hugh can read what I said in the Official Report tomorrow. I suggest that he read what some members on other benches have said today, because it has been a disgrace.

This is our last full debate this century. That is why the holiday that we must hold to is the new year. The new year debate must be about our resolution to modernise the NHS, to make it better as well as bigger. We must make it a health

service that is delivered in modern buildings, using modern techniques that are not separate from but are in partnership with social care and social support, and which minimise anxiety as well as physical pain. The partnerships must respond to the patients' needs, not the service's procedures. I tell Tommy Sheridan that it will be a health service that addresses inequalities in health as well as inequalities in access to health.

Beveridge and Bevan built the health service for their century. If we are big enough to build our health service for our people, for our century, we will have a 21st-century service for 21st-century men and women, for that is what we will be when we return to the chamber. That is the challenge to which we must rise. I ask members to support the motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C714689", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1015.0, "ContributionID": 714689, "EditedText": "Before we move on to decision time, I will address Roseanna Cunningham's earlier point, which was not a point of order, but which affects the work of the Parliament. Since I spoke, I have again consulted our officials and am able to make one minor amendment. I wish to inform the Parliament that the information technology network was specified and procured with Y2K compliance as a mandatory requirement. Therefore, we do not expect any problems with our IT system. Nevertheless, we are following best recommended practice by closing the Parliament's IT services in order to protect the network from contamination from external sources, such as e-mails that contain viruses, over the period of the millennium celebrations. Although the website will be available to the public during that period, the Parliament's system will be unavailable from the evening of 30 December, when essential double back-up will take place. The service will resume as soon as possible on Tuesday 4 January, when, although it is a public holiday, we have asked our IT staff to come in to restart the system. Those procedures should ensure that the Parliament is fully protected against the millennium bug and against any attempt to damage the system over the holiday period. I hope that that is clear and helpful to members.", "EditedTextHTML": "Before we move on to decision time, I will address Roseanna Cunningham's earlier point, which was not a point of order, but which affects the work of the Parliament. Since I spoke, I have again consulted our officials and am able to make one minor amendment.

I wish to inform the Parliament that the information technology network was specified and procured with Y2K compliance as a mandatory requirement. Therefore, we do not expect any problems with our IT system. Nevertheless, we are following best recommended practice by closing the Parliament's IT services in order to protect the network from contamination from external sources, such as e-mails that contain viruses, over the period of the millennium celebrations.

Although the website will be available to the public during that period, the Parliament's system will be unavailable from the evening of 30 December, when essential double back-up will take place. The service will resume as soon as possible on Tuesday 4 January, when, although it is a public holiday, we have asked our IT staff to come in to restart the system. Those procedures should ensure that the Parliament is fully protected against the millennium bug and against any attempt to damage the system over the holiday period. I hope that that is clear and helpful to members.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C714690", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27267, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1017.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1017.0, "ID": 27267, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1019.0, "ContributionID": 714690, "EditedText": "The first question is, that amendment S1M-117.1, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, which seeks to amend motion S1M-117, in the name of Michael Russell, on the Act of Settlement, be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "The first question is, that amendment S1M-117.1, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, which seeks to amend motion S1M-117, in the name of Michael Russell, on the Act of Settlement, be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "C714695", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27267, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1017.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1017.0, "ID": 27267, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1026.0, "ContributionID": 714695, "EditedText": "That the Parliament believes that the discrimination contained in the Act of Settlement has no place in our modern society, expresses its wish that those discriminatory aspects of the Act be repealed, and affirms its view that Scottish society must not disbar participation in any aspect of our national life on the grounds of religion, recognises that amendment or repeal raises complex constitutional issues, and that this is a matter reserved to UK Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament believes that the discrimination contained in the Act of Settlement has no place in our modern society, expresses its wish that those discriminatory aspects of the Act be repealed, and affirms its view that Scottish society must not disbar participation in any aspect of our national life on the grounds of religion, recognises that amendment or repeal raises complex constitutional issues, and that this is a matter reserved to UK Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C714696", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27267, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1017.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1017.0, "ID": 27267, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1027.0, "ContributionID": 714696, "EditedText": "The next question is, that motion S1M-388, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, on deputy committee conveners, be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "The next question is, that motion S1M-388, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, on deputy committee conveners, be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "C714698", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27267, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1017.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1017.0, "ID": 27267, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1030.0, "ContributionID": 714698, "EditedText": "That the Parliament agrees that the party from which the deputy convenor should be appointed for its committees be as set out as follows: Committee Deputy Convener Audit Con Equal Opportunities SNP European Lab Finance Lab Procedures Lab Public Petitions Lab Subordinate Legislation Lib Dem Standards SNP Education, Culture and Sport Lab Social Inclusion, Housing and Voluntary Sector SNP Local Government Lab Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Con Health and Community Care Lab Transport and the Environment Lib Dem Justice and Home Affairs Lab", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament agrees that the party from which the deputy convenor should be appointed for its committees be as set out as follows: Committee Deputy Convener Audit Con Equal Opportunities SNP European Lab Finance Lab Procedures Lab Public Petitions Lab Subordinate Legislation Lib Dem Standards SNP Education, Culture and Sport Lab Social Inclusion, Housing and Voluntary Sector SNP Local Government Lab Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Con Health and Community Care Lab Transport and the Environment Lib Dem Justice and Home Affairs Lab

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "C714705", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27267, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1017.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1017.0, "ID": 27267, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1041.0, "ContributionID": 714705, "EditedText": "Amendment disagreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment disagreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "C714709", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27267, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1017.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1017.0, "ID": 27267, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1048.0, "ContributionID": 714709, "EditedText": "FOR Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnston, Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)AGAINST Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)(LD)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnston, Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)

AGAINST

Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)
(LD)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C714710", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27267, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1017.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1017.0, "ID": 27267, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1049.0, "ContributionID": 714710, "EditedText": "The result of the division is: For 17, Against 101, Abstentions 0.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result of the division is: For 17, Against 101, Abstentions 0.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C714712", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27267, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1017.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1017.0, "ID": 27267, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1052.0, "ContributionID": 714712, "EditedText": "The final question is, that motion S1M-383, in the name of Susan Deacon, on health, be agreed to. Are we agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "The final question is, that motion S1M-383, in the name of Susan Deacon, on health, be agreed to. Are we agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C714714", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27267, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1017.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1017.0, "ID": 27267, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1056.0, "ContributionID": 714714, "EditedText": "There will be a division.", "EditedTextHTML": "There will be a division.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C714719", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27267, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1017.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1017.0, "ID": 27267, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan (Glasgow) (SSP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1063.0, "ContributionID": 714719, "EditedText": "On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I am not happy about the statement that you made about the IT workers. Can you give the Parliament an assurance that the appropriate trade union has been consulted on the issue of staff having to work on a public holiday? Applause.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I am not happy about the statement that you made about the IT workers. Can you give the Parliament an assurance that the appropriate trade union has been consulted on the issue of staff having to work on a public holiday? [Applause.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "C714722", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Cornton Vale Prison", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27268, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1067.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1067.0, "ID": 27268, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1070.0, "ContributionID": 714722, "EditedText": "Motion debated,", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion debated,

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "C714723", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Cornton Vale Prison", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27268, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1067.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1067.0, "ID": 27268, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1071.0, "ContributionID": 714723, "EditedText": "That the Parliament recognises the contribution \"half way houses\" could make, not only in ensuring far more effective treatment and aftercare for drug related crimes, but also to creating a supportive and structured environment for many of the women presently within Cornton Vale.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament recognises the contribution \"half way houses\" could make, not only in ensuring far more effective treatment and aftercare for drug related crimes, but also to creating a supportive and structured environment for many of the women presently within Cornton Vale.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1873E89P171C714724", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Cornton Vale Prison", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27268, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1067.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1067.0, "ID": 27268, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jackson, Dr Sylvia", "ID": 1873, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Stirling" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sylvia Jackson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Sylvia Jackson (Stirling) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1073.0, "ContributionID": 714724, "EditedText": "It gives me great pleasure—although our numbers are somewhat depleted—to open this important debate this evening. The subject relates to the finding of more effective ways to support women offenders who have drug-related problems. I would like to begin by addressing the history of the issue. A major review of community disposals and the use of custody for women offenders in Scotland was carried out by the chief inspector of prisons and the chief inspector of social work. That culminated in the publication of \"Women Offenders—A Safer Way\", which made seven recommendations, all of which were accepted in principle by the Government. Those recommendations centred on the following important issues: the need for increased services to support court decision making on the use of bail; ways in which to reduce the number of women who default on their fines and the number of women who are taken into custody as a result; the fact that local authorities should ensure that criminal justice social work services are tailored to work with women offenders; the aim that, by the year 2000, women under 18 will not be held in prison establishments; and, finally, specific recommendations on the estate management at Cornton Vale prison. The main focus for the follow-up to the report is an inter-agency forum that is chaired by Professor Sheila McLean, which brings together representatives from the main criminal justice agencies to address problems in the treatment of women offenders. That forum began its work last year, and I shall return to it later. Within the recommendations that I listed earlier is the desire to limit the number of women who enter Cornton Vale for whom a custodial sentence is clearly inappropriate. Those include, for example, defaulters on fines for offences such as prostitution or the failure to buy a TV licence. It is also recommended that better use be made of the bail system, with more information and support being made available to women. At the moment, the number of offenders at Cornton Vale, particularly those in the 18 to 34 age group, is at a record level. In addition, the drug and alcohol- related problems of the women there make the management of the prison population more complex. This motion addresses the specific issue of finding appropriate solutions for the type of women at Cornton Vale who have drug-related problems. At the outset, it is important to ask two questions. The first is whether prison is the right sentence. The second is whether, in cases where it is, enough is being done to facilitate women's rehabilitation after release. I will deal first with the question of whether prison is the right sentence. The prime concern has to be the protection of the public. In cases where a real problem is posed, a custodial sentence is the right disposal. However, in too many cases prison is used not because there is a danger to the public, but because there is no adequate alternative. Many women at Cornton Vale need help to overcome drug and alcohol addiction and to deal with the myriad social problems that they face. Research by Dr Nancy Loukes gave an indication of the typical circumstances of women committed to Cornton Vale. More than 90 per cent of the women in her sample had left school at the age of 16 or under. Roughly three quarters had a history of truancy and, as a result, left school with few or no qualifications. Many had experienced physical, emotional or sexual abuse, and relatively few had received help. There were significant problems of drug and alcohol addiction. Again, let me stress that, in some cases, prison is the right sentence, because of the need to protect society. However, let us be under no illusion: prison cannot deal with many of the deep- seated underlying problems. Let us also recognise that, in cases where there is no danger to the public, a suitable alternative would be more appropriate if it existed. I now turn to the second question: the help that is provided to women during their time in prison and after release. The report \"Women Offenders— A Safer Way\" listed changes that could be made at Cornton Vale. Many of those have taken place already, including improving services for those with psychiatric needs and addiction problems, and better communication between court-based social work staff and the staff at Cornton Vale. I know that other members present have more specialist knowledge in the area of drug treatment and will speak in more detail on that issue. Let us remember that many women are sentenced to relatively short periods of imprisonment, often for petty crimes, and then released. Although support such as that given through the turnaround project is increasing, much more is needed. Too often, women leave Cornton Vale prison only to face the same range of social problems that led to their conviction in the first place. Often they turn to crime to feed a drug habit. If we are to be effective with such offenders and to ensure that they do not reoffend, we must do more to prepare them for release and support them afterwards. One initiative that has been used very successfully in north America, particularly in Canada, is halfway houses. Those provide a well- supported environment in which women can live— we should not forget that 70 per cent of women offenders have children—and receive dedicated help to overcome their problems, particularly drug and alcohol addiction. The halfway house could be an effective alternative to prison for those who do not pose any threat to society. It could also offer longer-term support after release from prison. In bringing forward this motion, I hope that we can consider seriously the suggestion of halfway houses, working through the following process. First, we should undertake research in the area, looking at best practice in other countries and building on the on-going work of Professor McLean and her inter-agency forum. Secondly, we should undertake a pilot project based on that research, which would most likely bring together a more co-ordinated support structure within a halfway house approach. It is to be hoped that that would allow women to have their children with them. It would also build on the work of Professor McLean's forum and the useful suggestion for the turnaround project to be expanded. Thirdly, we should put in place an after-care service to support women once they are fully back in the community. Research so far shows that, in addition to support for drug and alcohol problems, women offenders need help with housing and basic education and training, which are as essential as the drug and alcohol treatment. That means adopting a holistic approach to solving not just one, but a number of problems. This issue is essentially one of social exclusion. By the measures that we suggest today, we can bring a number of very vulnerable women back into society to lead what we hope will be effective and rewarding lives. There are many issues that I have been unable to touch on, but I will leave those to the remaining speakers. I beg members to support the motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "It gives me great pleasure—although our numbers are somewhat depleted—to open this important debate this evening. The subject relates to the finding of more effective ways to support women offenders who have drug-related problems. I would like to begin by addressing the history of the issue.

A major review of community disposals and the use of custody for women offenders in Scotland was carried out by the chief inspector of prisons and the chief inspector of social work. That culminated in the publication of \"Women Offenders—A Safer Way\", which made seven recommendations, all of which were accepted in principle by the Government.

Those recommendations centred on the following important issues: the need for increased services to support court decision making on the use of bail; ways in which to reduce the number of women who default on their fines and the number of women who are taken into custody as a result; the fact that local authorities should ensure that criminal justice social work services are tailored to work with women offenders; the aim that, by the year 2000, women under 18 will not be held in prison establishments; and, finally, specific recommendations on the estate management at Cornton Vale prison.

The main focus for the follow-up to the report is an inter-agency forum that is chaired by Professor Sheila McLean, which brings together representatives from the main criminal justice agencies to address problems in the treatment of women offenders. That forum began its work last year, and I shall return to it later.

Within the recommendations that I listed earlier is the desire to limit the number of women who enter Cornton Vale for whom a custodial sentence

is clearly inappropriate. Those include, for example, defaulters on fines for offences such as prostitution or the failure to buy a TV licence. It is also recommended that better use be made of the bail system, with more information and support being made available to women. At the moment, the number of offenders at Cornton Vale, particularly those in the 18 to 34 age group, is at a record level. In addition, the drug and alcohol- related problems of the women there make the management of the prison population more complex.

This motion addresses the specific issue of finding appropriate solutions for the type of women at Cornton Vale who have drug-related problems. At the outset, it is important to ask two questions. The first is whether prison is the right sentence. The second is whether, in cases where it is, enough is being done to facilitate women's rehabilitation after release.

I will deal first with the question of whether prison is the right sentence. The prime concern has to be the protection of the public. In cases where a real problem is posed, a custodial sentence is the right disposal. However, in too many cases prison is used not because there is a danger to the public, but because there is no adequate alternative. Many women at Cornton Vale need help to overcome drug and alcohol addiction and to deal with the myriad social problems that they face.

Research by Dr Nancy Loukes gave an indication of the typical circumstances of women committed to Cornton Vale. More than 90 per cent of the women in her sample had left school at the age of 16 or under. Roughly three quarters had a history of truancy and, as a result, left school with few or no qualifications. Many had experienced physical, emotional or sexual abuse, and relatively few had received help. There were significant problems of drug and alcohol addiction.

Again, let me stress that, in some cases, prison is the right sentence, because of the need to protect society. However, let us be under no illusion: prison cannot deal with many of the deep- seated underlying problems. Let us also recognise that, in cases where there is no danger to the public, a suitable alternative would be more appropriate if it existed.

I now turn to the second question: the help that is provided to women during their time in prison and after release. The report \"Women Offenders— A Safer Way\" listed changes that could be made at Cornton Vale. Many of those have taken place already, including improving services for those with psychiatric needs and addiction problems, and better communication between court-based social work staff and the staff at Cornton Vale.

I know that other members present have more specialist knowledge in the area of drug treatment and will speak in more detail on that issue. Let us remember that many women are sentenced to relatively short periods of imprisonment, often for petty crimes, and then released. Although support such as that given through the turnaround project is increasing, much more is needed. Too often, women leave Cornton Vale prison only to face the same range of social problems that led to their conviction in the first place. Often they turn to crime to feed a drug habit. If we are to be effective with such offenders and to ensure that they do not reoffend, we must do more to prepare them for release and support them afterwards.

One initiative that has been used very successfully in north America, particularly in Canada, is halfway houses. Those provide a well- supported environment in which women can live— we should not forget that 70 per cent of women offenders have children—and receive dedicated help to overcome their problems, particularly drug and alcohol addiction. The halfway house could be an effective alternative to prison for those who do not pose any threat to society. It could also offer longer-term support after release from prison.

In bringing forward this motion, I hope that we can consider seriously the suggestion of halfway houses, working through the following process. First, we should undertake research in the area, looking at best practice in other countries and building on the on-going work of Professor McLean and her inter-agency forum. Secondly, we should undertake a pilot project based on that research, which would most likely bring together a more co-ordinated support structure within a halfway house approach. It is to be hoped that that would allow women to have their children with them. It would also build on the work of Professor McLean's forum and the useful suggestion for the turnaround project to be expanded. Thirdly, we should put in place an after-care service to support women once they are fully back in the community.

Research so far shows that, in addition to support for drug and alcohol problems, women offenders need help with housing and basic education and training, which are as essential as the drug and alcohol treatment. That means adopting a holistic approach to solving not just one, but a number of problems.

This issue is essentially one of social exclusion. By the measures that we suggest today, we can bring a number of very vulnerable women back into society to lead what we hope will be effective and rewarding lives. There are many issues that I have been unable to touch on, but I will leave those to the remaining speakers. I beg members to support the motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1821E295P538C714728", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Cornton Vale Prison", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27268, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1067.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1067.0, "ID": 27268, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Mrs Margaret", "ID": 1821, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Moray" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Margaret Ewing (Moray) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1084.0, "ContributionID": 714728, "EditedText": "I congratulate Sylvia Jackson on securing this debate on a subject that I regard as a very important one for our society. I must also declare an interest, Presiding Officer. My family has a record of working in the police and prison services. Indeed, my brother was involved in the transition from the young offenders institution to Cornton Vale prison at Bridge of Allan. The other side of my family is more involved on the legal side, but perhaps there is a coming together of views on these issues. Leaving aside that rather jokey approach, Sylvia has raised an important point about the treatment of offenders. It is not seen as the sexiest of issues by the press, which always takes a reactionary view of prison facilities and the Prison Service's aim of ensuring that offenders are given the best opportunity to come back into society without reoffending. We built Cornton Vale with great hopes and great expectations, but a catalogue of disasters has befallen it. The record of suicides has given Cornton Vale a bad reputation, despite the efforts of those who work with the inmates of that facility. Members of Parliament must express support for the people who work in Cornton Vale and for what is being achieved in that prison and in the penal system as a whole. I shall mention three important aspects of the treatment of offenders. The first is education. Having worked in that area, I know that many people in Cornton Vale do not read, cannot write and cannot communicate with society as most of us have to be able to do in our everyday lives. More emphasis should be put on the educational side of the Prison Service. The second important aspect is detoxification, which Dr Simpson has mentioned. I am not an expert on that, but I am aware of the huge debate on the issue of drugs and alcohol in prisons. We must emphasise the importance of detoxification. We may be able to do it through improved funding or perhaps through education, but there will be no easy answers. The third aspect is support in the community. We have to educate our communities about helping people who, for whatever reason, have fallen foul of the laws laid down by our country. If we put greater emphasis on support in the community, making available resources to support individuals, a great deal could be achieved. Those of us who have stayed to participate in Sylvia's debate hope that the Executive and the Parliament will take a constructive approach, because that is what the problem deserves.", "EditedTextHTML": "I congratulate Sylvia Jackson on securing this debate on a subject that I regard as a very important one for our society. I must also declare an interest, Presiding Officer. My family has a record of working in the police and prison services. Indeed, my brother was involved in the transition

from the young offenders institution to Cornton Vale prison at Bridge of Allan. The other side of my family is more involved on the legal side, but perhaps there is a coming together of views on these issues.

Leaving aside that rather jokey approach, Sylvia has raised an important point about the treatment of offenders. It is not seen as the sexiest of issues by the press, which always takes a reactionary view of prison facilities and the Prison Service's aim of ensuring that offenders are given the best opportunity to come back into society without reoffending.

We built Cornton Vale with great hopes and great expectations, but a catalogue of disasters has befallen it. The record of suicides has given Cornton Vale a bad reputation, despite the efforts of those who work with the inmates of that facility. Members of Parliament must express support for the people who work in Cornton Vale and for what is being achieved in that prison and in the penal system as a whole.

I shall mention three important aspects of the treatment of offenders. The first is education. Having worked in that area, I know that many people in Cornton Vale do not read, cannot write and cannot communicate with society as most of us have to be able to do in our everyday lives. More emphasis should be put on the educational side of the Prison Service.

The second important aspect is detoxification, which Dr Simpson has mentioned. I am not an expert on that, but I am aware of the huge debate on the issue of drugs and alcohol in prisons. We must emphasise the importance of detoxification. We may be able to do it through improved funding or perhaps through education, but there will be no easy answers.

The third aspect is support in the community. We have to educate our communities about helping people who, for whatever reason, have fallen foul of the laws laid down by our country. If we put greater emphasis on support in the community, making available resources to support individuals, a great deal could be achieved.

Those of us who have stayed to participate in Sylvia's debate hope that the Executive and the Parliament will take a constructive approach, because that is what the problem deserves.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C714732", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Cornton Vale Prison", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27268, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1067.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1067.0, "ID": 27268, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Justice (Angus MacKay): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1095.0, "ContributionID": 714732, "EditedText": "I am pleased to note the genuine cross- party support for this motion. I will begin by placing on record my view that the speeches that we have had tonight have been thoughtful and constructive, on a painful and difficult subject. None the less, this debate has probably been the most pleasurable of any I have participated in since coming to this Parliament because of the real feeling and genuine value of the speeches that have been made. I thank Sylvia Jackson for placing this motion before the Parliament and for making such a positive contribution to the debate. The position of women in Scottish prisons is a serious and emotive subject. It deserves to receive serious attention from the members of this Parliament. As Dr Richard Simpson said, it is an important issue for the Parliament and its committees to consider. I welcome the motion and the standard of debate that we have heard this evening. I emphasise the continuing commitment that the Scottish Executive gives to improving the way the criminal justice system deals—or attempts to deal—with women offenders. It remains our aim to ensure that there is a wide range of effective and credible community-based alternatives available to the courts, not just the sentencing and prison option. In Scotland, a wide range of alternatives to custody have been put in place. A good deal of work has also been done so that we have a better understanding of why people offend and how we can best intervene to help change that offending behaviour. That has been reflected in some of the speeches. On that basis, the Executive and I are in no doubt that prison will remain the correct solution for some groups of offenders, but for others it is a last resort and one of dubious quality. In the past decade, the use of community sentences has increased. For example, the number of probation orders has doubled and the number of community service orders has increased by 70 per cent. We recognise, however, that much of this work in the past has been informed by an analysis of offending patterns among men rather than women. It was for that reason that the importance of establishing effective and credible community-based alternatives for women who offend was one of the important issues highlighted in last year's review of women offenders in Scotland. As we know, and as members have mentioned, the origins of that review lay in the tragic loss of seven young lives at Cornton Vale prison between 1995 and 1997. Any suicide, in any circumstance, produces a reservoir of pain and misery for everyone concerned. In the Prison Service, that includes prisoners, families and prison staff. Every single one is a tragedy. In 1996, three out of the 17 suicides in Scottish prisons were women. Despite that, in Scotland, women offenders make up only a tiny percentage of the criminal cases that come before our courts. Of the 6,000 average daily population in Scotland's prisons in 1998, only 193 were women, and most were serving much shorter sentences than men. Those figures are startling and disturbing evidence, compared with the number of suicides by women.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am pleased to note the genuine cross- party support for this motion.

I will begin by placing on record my view that the speeches that we have had tonight have been thoughtful and constructive, on a painful and difficult subject. None the less, this debate has probably been the most pleasurable of any I have participated in since coming to this Parliament because of the real feeling and genuine value of the speeches that have been made. I thank Sylvia Jackson for placing this motion before the Parliament and for making such a positive contribution to the debate.

The position of women in Scottish prisons is a serious and emotive subject. It deserves to receive serious attention from the members of this Parliament. As Dr Richard Simpson said, it is an important issue for the Parliament and its committees to consider. I welcome the motion and the standard of debate that we have heard this evening.

I emphasise the continuing commitment that the Scottish Executive gives to improving the way the criminal justice system deals—or attempts to deal—with women offenders. It remains our aim to ensure that there is a wide range of effective and credible community-based alternatives available to the courts, not just the sentencing and prison option.

In Scotland, a wide range of alternatives to custody have been put in place. A good deal of work has also been done so that we have a better understanding of why people offend and how we

can best intervene to help change that offending behaviour. That has been reflected in some of the speeches. On that basis, the Executive and I are in no doubt that prison will remain the correct solution for some groups of offenders, but for others it is a last resort and one of dubious quality.

In the past decade, the use of community sentences has increased. For example, the number of probation orders has doubled and the number of community service orders has increased by 70 per cent. We recognise, however, that much of this work in the past has been informed by an analysis of offending patterns among men rather than women. It was for that reason that the importance of establishing effective and credible community-based alternatives for women who offend was one of the important issues highlighted in last year's review of women offenders in Scotland.

As we know, and as members have mentioned, the origins of that review lay in the tragic loss of seven young lives at Cornton Vale prison between 1995 and 1997. Any suicide, in any circumstance, produces a reservoir of pain and misery for everyone concerned. In the Prison Service, that includes prisoners, families and prison staff. Every single one is a tragedy. In 1996, three out of the 17 suicides in Scottish prisons were women.

Despite that, in Scotland, women offenders make up only a tiny percentage of the criminal cases that come before our courts. Of the 6,000 average daily population in Scotland's prisons in 1998, only 193 were women, and most were serving much shorter sentences than men. Those figures are startling and disturbing evidence, compared with the number of suicides by women.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C714736", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Cornton Vale Prison", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27268, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1067.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1067.0, "ID": 27268, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Angus MacKay: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1103.0, "ContributionID": 714736, "EditedText": "I am not sure whether that specific information is available. I will certainly inquire, and if the information is available, I will pass it on to the member. Information is available on the length of sentencing and that in itself makes interesting reading.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am not sure whether that specific information is available. I will certainly inquire, and if the information is available, I will pass it on to the member. Information is available on the length of sentencing and that in itself makes interesting reading.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5919292+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1821E295P538C714737", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Cornton Vale Prison", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27268, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1067.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1067.0, "ID": 27268, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Mrs Margaret", "ID": 1821, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Moray" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1105.0, "ContributionID": 714737, "EditedText": "All that information is available in the Scottish Executive register of statistics.", "EditedTextHTML": "All that information is available in the Scottish Executive register of statistics.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5919292+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C714743", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Cornton Vale Prison", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27268, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1067.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1067.0, "ID": 27268, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Angus MacKay: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1117.0, "ContributionID": 714743, "EditedText": "I am not ruling out halfway houses. I am simply making the point that they could be seen as a lesser form of incarceration, and that something altogether more fundamental and radical than putting women into any form of incarceration may be required. \"A Safer Way\", the review into women offending, concluded that almost all women offenders could be safely punished in the community without any major risk to the general population. That underlines the point that I am making. Following that review, the aim has been to increase the range of supervised accommodation provided by local authorities. Good progress has been made in many areas. There is now a range of accommodation throughout much of the country, from supported flats to closely supervised hostels—all funded through the 100 per cent funding arrangements. That is a positive approach. Moreover, an extra £20 million is going into the budget for community sentences in the current three-year period. Much has been and is being done to address the specific problems associated with women offenders. Accommodation in Glasgow for women, including those on bail, has increased with the opening of a new facility to extend existing provision. A new bail retrieval scheme in Cornton Vale has been introduced to offer those women originally remanded in custody a second chance of release on bail under supervision. There is a new 24-hour staffed hostel in Dundee with four dedicated bed spaces for women or women and their children. The expansion of the turnaround project addresses the specific needs of female drug misusers in Glasgow at all stages in the criminal justice process from arrest to release from prison. The mainstreaming of funding for bail schemes has been introduced in Glasgow and Edinburgh to offer courts a feasible alternative to custody by adding supervision to the bail conditions. Funding has also been provided for new schemes in North and South Lanark. Supervised attendance orders for fine defaulters are being extended to all courts in Scotland. Drug treatment and testing orders are being piloted in Glasgow to deal with those offenders who are committing crimes to fund their drug misuse. That programme will be doubled in Glasgow next year and extended to Fife. To help to shape future policy, further research is being carried out on the specific issues around young women who offend.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am not ruling out halfway houses. I am simply making the point that they could be seen as a lesser form of incarceration, and that something altogether more fundamental

and radical than putting women into any form of incarceration may be required. \"A Safer Way\", the review into women offending, concluded that almost all women offenders could be safely punished in the community without any major risk to the general population. That underlines the point that I am making.

Following that review, the aim has been to increase the range of supervised accommodation provided by local authorities. Good progress has been made in many areas. There is now a range of accommodation throughout much of the country, from supported flats to closely supervised hostels—all funded through the 100 per cent funding arrangements. That is a positive approach. Moreover, an extra £20 million is going into the budget for community sentences in the current three-year period.

Much has been and is being done to address the specific problems associated with women offenders. Accommodation in Glasgow for women, including those on bail, has increased with the opening of a new facility to extend existing provision. A new bail retrieval scheme in Cornton Vale has been introduced to offer those women originally remanded in custody a second chance of release on bail under supervision. There is a new 24-hour staffed hostel in Dundee with four dedicated bed spaces for women or women and their children. The expansion of the turnaround project addresses the specific needs of female drug misusers in Glasgow at all stages in the criminal justice process from arrest to release from prison.

The mainstreaming of funding for bail schemes has been introduced in Glasgow and Edinburgh to offer courts a feasible alternative to custody by adding supervision to the bail conditions. Funding has also been provided for new schemes in North and South Lanark. Supervised attendance orders for fine defaulters are being extended to all courts in Scotland. Drug treatment and testing orders are being piloted in Glasgow to deal with those offenders who are committing crimes to fund their drug misuse. That programme will be doubled in Glasgow next year and extended to Fife. To help to shape future policy, further research is being carried out on the specific issues around young women who offend.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5919292+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2110E214P424C714369", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gibson, Kenneth", "ID": 2110, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenneth Gibson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Kenneth Gibson (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 344.0, "ContributionID": 714369, "EditedText": "Has Mr Henry, or Mary Mulligan, made any official complaint to the SNP about the alleged incidents in Edinburgh? Sam Campbell, who only 13 years ago was a Labour councillor, said that all Catholics should be deported from Scotland. For some reason, he specifically mentioned Eamonn Andrews. He was suspended from the Labour party for six months, after which he became a provost—the leader of the council—and he is still a serving Labour councillor. Rather than talk about what happened 80 years ago, what will the Labour party do about such reprehensible individuals in this day and age?", "EditedTextHTML": "Has Mr Henry, or Mary Mulligan, made any official complaint to the SNP about the alleged incidents in Edinburgh?

Sam Campbell, who only 13 years ago was a Labour councillor, said that all Catholics should be deported from Scotland. For some reason, he specifically mentioned Eamonn Andrews. He was suspended from the Labour party for six months, after which he became a provost—the leader of the council—and he is still a serving Labour councillor. Rather than talk about what happened 80 years ago, what will the Labour party do about such reprehensible individuals in this day and age?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:31:43.4808602+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C714215", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Motion without notice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27237, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 27237, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 15.0, "ContributionID": 714215, "EditedText": "I am grateful to Mr McCabe for clarifying the matter. It is important that we know what we are voting on. I apologise for croaking, but I am croaking rather less than I was yesterday. This will be a long morning, so I will be brief. Two issues are at stake—one is the issue of principle and the other is the issue of practice. The issue of principle is that this morning's time in the Parliament is Opposition time, which has been allocated to the Scottish National party. Yesterday, we chose to bring forward an urgent motion that was lodged on Monday, which seeks to redress an injustice that is being done to some 4,000 people and which involves £22 million. It is a matter of real hardship in many sectors of the agriculture community in Scotland. With the report from the Rural Affairs Committee strongly recommending that action be taken on ABIS, it seemed only fair to give Parliament the opportunity to have its voice heard, particularly as the cut-off date for the scheme—", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful to Mr McCabe for clarifying the matter. It is important that we know what we are voting on.

I apologise for croaking, but I am croaking rather less than I was yesterday. This will be a long morning, so I will be brief.

Two issues are at stake—one is the issue of principle and the other is the issue of practice. The issue of principle is that this morning's time in the Parliament is Opposition time, which has been allocated to the Scottish National party. Yesterday, we chose to bring forward an urgent motion that was lodged on Monday, which seeks to redress an injustice that is being done to some 4,000 people and which involves £22 million. It is a matter of real hardship in many sectors of the agriculture community in Scotland.

With the report from the Rural Affairs Committee strongly recommending that action be taken on ABIS, it seemed only fair to give Parliament the opportunity to have its voice heard, particularly as the cut-off date for the scheme—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5138024+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C714219", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Motion without notice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27237, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 27237, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 23.0, "ContributionID": 714219, "EditedText": "Thank you very much.Obviously, Mr Smith's long train journeys from Fife, to which he referred yesterday, are preying on his mind. The report, which is in the hands of everyone in the chamber, clearly indicates that an injustice is being done. In those circumstances, it is right that we consider the motion. If members had listened to the evidence in the committee, it would be surprising if they did not know that an injustice was being done, even before the report came out. Perhaps Mr Smith should read the evidence more often. There is a wrong to be righted and this is the last opportunity to do so. It would be a huge failure of the Parliament if it did not take that opportunity and I am glad that the SNP is offering that opportunity. A decision on the matter involves all of us, particularly Liberal Democrat members, who should recall that at Westminster—and I am not fond of many Westminster conventions—there is a convention that the vote must follow the voice. We have heard many voices raised by the Liberal Democrats against the injustice of ABIS. I hope that they will bear that in mind when they decide whether to vote for the motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you very much.

Obviously, Mr Smith's long train journeys from Fife, to which he referred yesterday, are preying on his mind. The report, which is in the hands of everyone in the chamber, clearly indicates that an injustice is being done. In those circumstances, it is right that we consider the motion. If members had listened to the evidence in the committee, it would be surprising if they did not know that an injustice was being done, even before the report came out. Perhaps Mr Smith should read the evidence more often.

There is a wrong to be righted and this is the last opportunity to do so. It would be a huge failure of the Parliament if it did not take that opportunity and I am glad that the SNP is offering that opportunity. A decision on the matter involves all of us, particularly Liberal Democrat members, who should recall that at Westminster—and I am not

fond of many Westminster conventions—there is a convention that the vote must follow the voice. We have heard many voices raised by the Liberal Democrats against the injustice of ABIS. I hope that they will bear that in mind when they decide whether to vote for the motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5138024+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C714220", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Motion without notice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27237, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 27237, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice (Mr Jim Wallace): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 25.0, "ContributionID": 714220, "EditedText": "This is sheer opportunism.", "EditedTextHTML": "This is sheer opportunism.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5138024+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C714222", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Motion without notice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27237, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 27237, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 29.0, "ContributionID": 714222, "EditedText": "Order. There is too much noise in the chamber.", "EditedTextHTML": "Order. There is too much noise in the chamber.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5138024+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C714225", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Motion without notice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27237, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 27237, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 35.0, "ContributionID": 714225, "EditedText": "Is it a real point of order, Mr Jenkins?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is it a real point of order, Mr Jenkins?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5138024+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C714228", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Motion without notice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27237, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 27237, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 41.0, "ContributionID": 714228, "EditedText": "Order. I will allow a short debate on this, until 9.45 am. If members wish to make points, they may do so, but there should be no points of order, please.", "EditedTextHTML": "Order. I will allow a short debate on this, until 9.45 am. If members wish to make points, they may do so, but there should be no points of order, please.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5138024+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2228E151P202C714232", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Motion without notice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27237, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 27237, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McCabe, Tom", "ID": 2228, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Tom McCabe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McCabe: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 50.0, "ContributionID": 714232, "EditedText": "Yes.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5138024+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2140E187P335C714235", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Motion without notice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27237, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 27237, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Rumbles, Mike", "ID": 2140, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Rumbles", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Rumbles: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 57.0, "ContributionID": 714235, "EditedText": "I am shocked at the behaviour of the convener of the Rural Affairs Committee in rushing out this interim report in the early hours of the morning. I have not had the opportunity to read fully the interim report because of an earlier clash of committees. This is a disgraceful use of parliamentary time. This is using the financial problems of our farmers and crofters in the Highlands and Islands to make party political points. I suggest that we do not discuss the motion today.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am shocked at the behaviour of the convener of the Rural Affairs Committee in rushing out this interim report in the early hours of the morning. I have not had the opportunity to read fully the interim report because of an earlier clash of committees. This is a disgraceful use of parliamentary time. This is using the financial problems of our farmers and crofters in the Highlands and Islands to make party political points. I suggest that we do not discuss the motion today.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C714242", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Motion without notice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27237, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 27237, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 72.0, "ContributionID": 714242, "EditedText": "Just a moment, Mr McCabe. Is this a real point of order?", "EditedTextHTML": "Just a moment, Mr McCabe. Is this a real point of order?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C714244", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Motion without notice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27237, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 27237, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 76.0, "ContributionID": 714244, "EditedText": "No, you cannot. That is not a point of order. Please sit down, Mr Ewing.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, you cannot. That is not a point of order. Please sit down, Mr Ewing.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C714247", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Motion without notice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27237, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 27237, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 82.0, "ContributionID": 714247, "EditedText": "Is this a first—a real point of order?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is this a first—a real point of order?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C714248", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Motion without notice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27237, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 27237, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 84.0, "ContributionID": 714248, "EditedText": "As far as I am concerned, it is. I have heard Mr McCabe say that this is an issue for party co-ordination and co-operation. He is wrong. This is an issue—Interruption.", "EditedTextHTML": "As far as I am concerned, it is. I have heard Mr McCabe say that this is an issue for party co-ordination and co-operation. He is wrong. This is an issue—[Interruption.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1775E171P452C714253", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Motion without notice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27237, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 27237, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeod, Fiona", "ID": 1775, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona McLeod", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona McLeod (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 94.0, "ContributionID": 714253, "EditedText": "As we are talking about abuse of parliamentary procedure, why does the 12.15 pm statement on Hampden not appear on the business bulletin, when the minister has been spinning since Sunday that he would make a statement today?", "EditedTextHTML": "As we are talking about abuse of parliamentary procedure, why does the 12.15 pm statement on Hampden not appear on the business bulletin, when the minister has been spinning since Sunday that he would make a statement today?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2228E151P202C714254", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Motion without notice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27237, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 27237, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McCabe, Tom", "ID": 2228, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Tom McCabe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McCabe: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 96.0, "ContributionID": 714254, "EditedText": "Is the Scottish National party suggesting that we should not have a statement on Hampden? It has been requesting such a statement for some time.", "EditedTextHTML": "Is the Scottish National party suggesting that we should not have a statement on Hampden? It has been requesting such a statement for some time.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1775E171P452C714256", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Motion without notice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27237, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 27237, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeod, Fiona", "ID": 1775, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona McLeod", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona McLeod rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 100.0, "ContributionID": 714256, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1775E171P452C714258", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Motion without notice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27237, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 27237, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeod, Fiona", "ID": 1775, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona McLeod", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona McLeod: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 104.0, "ContributionID": 714258, "EditedText": "On a point of order.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1775E171P452C714260", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Motion without notice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27237, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 27237, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeod, Fiona", "ID": 1775, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona McLeod", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona McLeod: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 108.0, "ContributionID": 714260, "EditedText": "On a point of order.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C714265", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Motion without notice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27237, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 27237, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 118.0, "ContributionID": 714265, "EditedText": "It is not a point of order; it is a point of argument. Carry on, Mr McCabe.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is not a point of order; it is a point of argument. Carry on, Mr McCabe.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1821E295P538C714269", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Motion without notice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27237, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 27237, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Mrs Margaret", "ID": 1821, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Moray" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Margaret Ewing (Moray) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 126.0, "ContributionID": 714269, "EditedText": "So debate it.", "EditedTextHTML": "So debate it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2228E151P202C714275", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Motion without notice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27237, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 27237, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McCabe, Tom", "ID": 2228, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Tom McCabe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McCabe: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 138.0, "ContributionID": 714275, "EditedText": "I am sure that the SNP would like Mr Rumbles to withdraw his relevant comments, but I am sure he will not oblige.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sure that the SNP would like Mr Rumbles to withdraw his relevant comments, but I am sure he will not oblige.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2228E151P202C714277", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Motion without notice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27237, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 27237, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McCabe, Tom", "ID": 2228, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Tom McCabe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McCabe: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 142.0, "ContributionID": 714277, "EditedText": "As I understand it, the report that we are discussing this morning is an interim report. The Rural Affairs Committee requires to make further investigations before it reaches a final view. Surely that will not happen before 31 December. Matters of concern have already been discussed in the Rural Affairs Committee, and the minister has already spoken to the committee. No new issues have been raised since then. ABIS has also been addressed in written and oral parliamentary questions. The scheme will result in some £16 million of Executive grants going to Highlands and Islands farmers. In an ideal world, of course, there would be more money, but it is equally true that £16 million is not an inconsiderable sum.", "EditedTextHTML": "As I understand it, the report that we are discussing this morning is an interim report. The Rural Affairs Committee requires to make further investigations before it reaches a final view. Surely that will not happen before 31 December. Matters of concern have already been discussed in the Rural Affairs Committee, and the minister has already spoken to the committee. No new issues have been raised since then. ABIS has also been addressed in written and oral parliamentary questions. The scheme will result in some £16 million of Executive grants going to Highlands and Islands farmers. In an ideal world, of course, there would be more money, but it is equally true that £16 million is not an inconsiderable sum.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "C714283", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Motion without notice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27237, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 27237, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 154.0, "ContributionID": 714283, "EditedText": "FOR Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Johnston, Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)(LD)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)AGAINST Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Johnston, Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)
(LD)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)

AGAINST

Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C714286", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 159.0, "ContributionID": 714286, "EditedText": "We proceed to this morning's business, which is a debate on motion S1M-117, in the name of Michael Russell, on the Act of Settlement. I call Mike Russell to open the debate.", "EditedTextHTML": "We proceed to this morning's business, which is a debate on motion S1M-117, in the name of Michael Russell, on the Act of Settlement. I call Mike Russell to open the debate.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C714287", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell (South of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 162.0, "ContributionID": 714287, "EditedText": "Perhaps we should pause for a moment to allow the smoke of battle to clear, because this morning we are considering an issue that is not only significant, but historic. It is important that we apply our minds to that rather than to the difficulties of the past 15 minutes. First, I thank the 77 MSPs who signed the motion that I lodged on 1 September. Given the convention that ministers, Presiding Officers and Deputy Presiding Officers do not sign motions, 77—70 per cent of MSPs who were able to sign the motion—is a substantial number. If Ian Jenkins's criticism is the worst that can be made of me this morning—that I have brought to debate in this chamber a motion that was not for debate—that is fair enough. I plead guilty. The reality is that I lodged the motion on 1 September with the support of five other MSPs because I felt that, if the Parliament's expression and will could be given on the business bulletin, over a period of time there might be some change south of the border that might move the issue on. That has not happened, which is why we are debating the issue today. We have had rumour and counter-rumour, spin and counter-spin. We have heard allegations that the First Minister was in favour of change pre- Rafferty, but against change post-Rafferty. We have heard a variety of rumours. However, what we have not had is any commitment to action. I hope that we will debate the issue constructively and respectfully to say that this is a blot on Scotland which requires to be changed and that, by letting its voice be heard, the Parliament can be instrumental in such change. Let us consider what the Act of Settlement 1701 and the following Act of Union 1707 actually are. They are extremely offensive pieces of legislation that stipulate that those who \"profess the popish religion\" can neither be monarchs nor marry into the royal family. Although the issue of who is or is not the monarch is not something that keeps me awake at night, I am concerned when any individual is told that the profession of his or her religion disbars him or her from anything. Most of us thought that such times were over in Scotland; many people are surprised to find that such times are still here. As the Church of Scotland said yesterday, the Act of Settlement is a product of its times, as is the Act of Union. When those acts were passed— somewhat narrowly in the case of the Act of Union—the killing times were still within living memory. Profession of the Protestant religion had been injurious to health and even to life. Within living memory, a monarch had been removed from the throne for the profession of a very aggressive form of Catholicism which was felt to threaten the nation's unity. In such circumstances, it is scarcely surprising that such provisions were made. However, that was then, not now. We should not carry the prejudices of the past down to this and future generations; if we are to carry them down, we need a good reason for doing so. What has surprised me in the debate over the past three and a half months—and indeed in the debate over the past 20 to 30 years—is that there are no good reasons for failing to change these offensive provisions. I had hoped that the reasons would at last be given when I read this morning's The Scotsman, which outlines the formidable constitutional obstacles that Lord Hogg of Cumbernauld came up against when he attempted to introduce a 10-minute rule bill on the matter in 1981. The obstacles included the Coronation Oath Act 1688, the Union with Scotland Act 1706, which is indeed a formidable obstacle, but not in this context, and Princess Sophia's Precedence Act 1711—I suspect that even the First Minister could not tell us what that is about. They included the Royal Marriage Act 1772, article 2 of the Union with Ireland Act 1800—Lord Hogg is obviously unaware that that is not particularly relevant any longer—section 4 and the schedule to the Regency Act 1937 and the Statute of Westminster 1931. None of us here could tell anyone what those laws are about, but what they should not be about is institutionalising discrimination. If any of them are, they should also be changed. Far from those laws being a reason for inaction, they are a spur to further action. That is what we should try to achieve in the chamber today.", "EditedTextHTML": "Perhaps we should pause for a moment to allow the smoke of battle to clear, because this morning we are considering an issue that is not only significant, but historic. It is important that we apply our minds to that rather than to the difficulties of the past 15 minutes.

First, I thank the 77 MSPs who signed the motion that I lodged on 1 September. Given the convention that ministers, Presiding Officers and Deputy Presiding Officers do not sign motions, 77—70 per cent of MSPs who were able to sign the motion—is a substantial number.

If Ian Jenkins's criticism is the worst that can be made of me this morning—that I have brought to debate in this chamber a motion that was not for debate—that is fair enough. I plead guilty. The reality is that I lodged the motion on 1 September with the support of five other MSPs because I felt that, if the Parliament's expression and will could be given on the business bulletin, over a period of time there might be some change south of the border that might move the issue on. That has not happened, which is why we are debating the issue today. We have had rumour and counter-rumour, spin and counter-spin. We have heard allegations that the First Minister was in favour of change pre- Rafferty, but against change post-Rafferty. We have heard a variety of rumours. However, what we have not had is any commitment to action.

I hope that we will debate the issue constructively and respectfully to say that this is a blot on Scotland which requires to be changed and that, by letting its voice be heard, the Parliament can be instrumental in such change.

Let us consider what the Act of Settlement 1701 and the following Act of Union 1707 actually are. They are extremely offensive pieces of legislation that stipulate that those who \"profess the popish religion\" can neither be monarchs nor marry into the royal family. Although the issue of who is or is not the monarch is not something that keeps me awake at night, I am concerned when any individual is told that the profession of his or her religion disbars him or her from anything. Most of us thought that such times were over in Scotland; many people are surprised to find that such times are still here.

As the Church of Scotland said yesterday, the Act of Settlement is a product of its times, as is the Act of Union. When those acts were passed— somewhat narrowly in the case of the Act of Union—the killing times were still within living memory. Profession of the Protestant religion had been injurious to health and even to life. Within living memory, a monarch had been removed from the throne for the profession of a very aggressive form of Catholicism which was felt to threaten the nation's unity. In such circumstances, it is scarcely surprising that such provisions were made. However, that was then, not now. We should not carry the prejudices of the past down to this and future generations; if we are to carry them down, we need a good reason for doing so.

What has surprised me in the debate over the past three and a half months—and indeed in the debate over the past 20 to 30 years—is that there are no good reasons for failing to change these offensive provisions. I had hoped that the reasons would at last be given when I read this morning's The Scotsman, which outlines the formidable constitutional obstacles that Lord Hogg of Cumbernauld came up against when he attempted to introduce a 10-minute rule bill on the matter in 1981.

The obstacles included the Coronation Oath Act 1688, the Union with Scotland Act 1706, which is indeed a formidable obstacle, but not in this context, and Princess Sophia's Precedence Act 1711—I suspect that even the First Minister could not tell us what that is about. They included the Royal Marriage Act 1772, article 2 of the Union with Ireland Act 1800—Lord Hogg is obviously unaware that that is not particularly relevant any longer—section 4 and the schedule to the Regency Act 1937 and the Statute of Westminster 1931.

None of us here could tell anyone what those laws are about, but what they should not be about is institutionalising discrimination. If any of them are, they should also be changed. Far from those laws being a reason for inaction, they are a spur to further action. That is what we should try to achieve in the chamber today.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2134E160P198C714288", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McMahon, Michael", "ID": 2134, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton North and Bellshill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael McMahon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Michael McMahon (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 164.0, "ContributionID": 714288, "EditedText": "Can Mr Russell tell us why he wants to raise this issue now, when all the time there have been Scottish National party members in the Palace of Westminster, none of them has tried to raise it?", "EditedTextHTML": "Can Mr Russell tell us why he wants to raise this issue now, when all the time there have been Scottish National party members in the Palace of Westminster, none of them has tried to raise it?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2228E151P202C714299", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McCabe, Tom", "ID": 2228, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Tom McCabe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McCabe: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 187.0, "ContributionID": 714299, "EditedText": "I greatly appreciate the elevation, but I point out to Mr Salmond that I am a minister in the Parliament of Scotland, not of Westminster. There is no doubt that we are dealing with a sensitive and important subject, but it is also beyond question that it is outwith the legislative competence of this Parliament. That does not mean that we cannot discuss it, within the rules of order and competence. The coalition Administration will defend this Parliament's right to choose its own subjects for discussion. With all rights come responsibilities. In this chamber, matters that are within Westminster's powers should be approached with caution. Expressing an opinion is of course a valid exercise, but it can often raise expectations that we are not in a position to satisfy. The motion discusses discrimination. I am in no doubt that this Parliament will want to combat discrimination wherever it is found. Indeed, we want to replace it with a Scotland characterised by fairness and justice for all its citizens, whatever their background, faith or race. The amendment recognises the complex constitutional difficulties that change or repeal of the act raises. It also acknowledges the fact that it is the responsibility of the United Kingdom Parliament. When we express the wish to repeal the discriminatory aspects of the act, we have to examine the constitutional and parliamentary time implications that that would have for the Westminster Parliament. Any Administration has to take tough decisions on its competing priorities when considering how best it can address discrimination. The harsh reality is that we live in an unequal society. In this Parliament, we have embarked on a crusade against poverty. Thousands of Scots battle against the odds every day. They need to know that this Parliament is on their side. It is a fight we will not give up. We will dedicate ourselves to winning it, no matter how long it takes. It has been said that Roman Catholics and indeed Scots of other faiths are insulted by the Act of Settlement. Of course they are, but by allowing people to meet their full potential, by removing the insult of poverty, exclusion and deprivation we also allow them to repudiate that insult. The fact that the act is a message from the past does not excuse or justify the situation. Nor does the fact that it has been an issue for many years in any way make it acceptable. People support politicians who know the value and priority of giving every child the best possible start in life. Scots know the value and priority of concentrating on quality education, decent housing and a safe environment. Those must be basic expectations for all Scots, not just the privileged few or a particular race, sex, religion or class.", "EditedTextHTML": "I greatly appreciate the elevation, but I point out to Mr Salmond that I am a minister in the Parliament of Scotland, not of Westminster.

There is no doubt that we are dealing with a sensitive and important subject, but it is also beyond question that it is outwith the legislative competence of this Parliament. That does not mean that we cannot discuss it, within the rules of order and competence. The coalition Administration will defend this Parliament's right to choose its own subjects for discussion.

With all rights come responsibilities. In this chamber, matters that are within Westminster's powers should be approached with caution. Expressing an opinion is of course a valid exercise, but it can often raise expectations that we are not in a position to satisfy.

The motion discusses discrimination. I am in no doubt that this Parliament will want to combat discrimination wherever it is found. Indeed, we want to replace it with a Scotland characterised by fairness and justice for all its citizens, whatever their background, faith or race.

The amendment recognises the complex constitutional difficulties that change or repeal of the act raises. It also acknowledges the fact that it is the responsibility of the United Kingdom Parliament. When we express the wish to repeal the discriminatory aspects of the act, we have to examine the constitutional and parliamentary time implications that that would have for the Westminster Parliament. Any Administration has to take tough decisions on its competing priorities when considering how best it can address discrimination.

The harsh reality is that we live in an unequal society. In this Parliament, we have embarked on a crusade against poverty. Thousands of Scots battle against the odds every day. They need to know that this Parliament is on their side. It is a fight we will not give up. We will dedicate ourselves to winning it, no matter how long it takes. It has been said that Roman Catholics and indeed Scots of other faiths are insulted by the Act of Settlement. Of course they are, but by allowing people to meet their full potential, by removing the insult of poverty, exclusion and deprivation we also allow them to repudiate that insult.

The fact that the act is a message from the past does not excuse or justify the situation. Nor does the fact that it has been an issue for many years in any way make it acceptable. People support politicians who know the value and priority of giving every child the best possible start in life. Scots know the value and priority of concentrating on quality education, decent housing and a safe environment. Those must be basic expectations for all Scots, not just the privileged few or a particular race, sex, religion or class.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2228E151P202C714303", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McCabe, Tom", "ID": 2228, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Tom McCabe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McCabe: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 195.0, "ContributionID": 714303, "EditedText": "I am happy to acknowledge that. I hope that the member acknowledges that the Parliamentary Bureau, on which her party is represented, agreed to that business timetable.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am happy to acknowledge that. I hope that the member acknowledges that the Parliamentary Bureau, on which her party is represented, agreed to that business timetable.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C714306", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie (Lothians) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 201.0, "ContributionID": 714306, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2228E151P202C714307", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McCabe, Tom", "ID": 2228, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Tom McCabe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McCabe: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 203.0, "ContributionID": 714307, "EditedText": "No, not at the moment.At no time did Lord Forsyth attempt to raise this issue, either as Secretary of State for Scotland or, previously, as Minister of State at the Home Office, which is the UK department with responsibility for constitutional affairs. I hope that Lord James Douglas-Hamilton, who has a proud record of endurance at the Scottish Office, will be able to throw some light on the matter. There is clearly consensus in this Parliament on the discriminatory aspects of the Act of Settlement, a change to which would have to be ratified by 15 Commonwealth Parliaments and would require amendments to at least eight separate acts. Mr Russell referred to another view, but I note that the letter he received from the Canadian Parliament ended with the words, \"it would appear\"—a useful phrase that is often used by lawyers. I have no doubt that in Canada the result would be protracted argument and that Canadian law officers may take a different view on the opinion expressed in that letter. I repeat that amending the Act of Settlement would require amendments to at least eight acts of Parliament. It is worth remembering that that is the same number of acts that the Executive proposes to pass through this Parliament in a full year.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, not at the moment.

At no time did Lord Forsyth attempt to raise this issue, either as Secretary of State for Scotland or, previously, as Minister of State at the Home Office, which is the UK department with responsibility for constitutional affairs. I hope that Lord James Douglas-Hamilton, who has a proud record of endurance at the Scottish Office, will be able to throw some light on the matter.

There is clearly consensus in this Parliament on the discriminatory aspects of the Act of Settlement, a change to which would have to be ratified by 15 Commonwealth Parliaments and would require amendments to at least eight separate acts. Mr Russell referred to another view, but I note that the letter he received from the Canadian Parliament ended with the words, \"it would appear\"—a useful phrase that is often used by lawyers. I have no doubt that in Canada the result would be protracted argument and that Canadian law officers may take a different view on the opinion expressed in that letter.

I repeat that amending the Act of Settlement would require amendments to at least eight acts of Parliament. It is worth remembering that that is the same number of acts that the Executive proposes to pass through this Parliament in a full year.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C714308", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 205.0, "ContributionID": 714308, "EditedText": "Is it not the case that, to pass the Scotland Bill, the number of acts of Parliament that required amendment far exceeded eight? Does the minister agree that amending that multitude of acts to establish this Parliament was a worthwhile exercise?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is it not the case that, to pass the Scotland Bill, the number of acts of Parliament that required amendment far exceeded eight? Does the minister agree that amending that multitude of acts to establish this Parliament was a worthwhile exercise?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1908E166P251C714331", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Kerr, Andy", "ID": 1908, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Kilbride" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andy Kerr", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Kerr: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 259.0, "ContributionID": 714331, "EditedText": "That motion was dealt with after 5 pm, and there was no vote on it. No Labour line exists. What I have before me are my own notes, written in the light of what Mike Russell said this morning. We are not proud of the Act of Settlement and we would like it to be changed, but we are aware that it is not a priority for the people of Scotland. Let us stick to the priorities.", "EditedTextHTML": "That motion was dealt with after 5 pm, and there was no vote on it.

No Labour line exists. What I have before me are my own notes, written in the light of what Mike Russell said this morning.

We are not proud of the Act of Settlement and we would like it to be changed, but we are aware that it is not a priority for the people of Scotland. Let us stick to the priorities.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C714319", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 230.0, "ContributionID": 714319, "EditedText": "Will Mr McMahon give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr McMahon give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C714315", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Patricia Ferguson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 221.0, "ContributionID": 714315, "EditedText": "I am sure that the invitations will be coming in thick and fast now, Mr Gorrie. I call Michael McMahon.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sure that the invitations will be coming in thick and fast now, Mr Gorrie.

I call Michael McMahon.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2134E160P198C714316", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McMahon, Michael", "ID": 2134, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton North and Bellshill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael McMahon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Michael McMahon (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 224.0, "ContributionID": 714316, "EditedText": "Let me make it clear from the outset that the Act of Settlement is an anachronistic anomaly that runs contrary to the principles of inclusion and equality. As a member of a party founded on the principles of social justice, I am pleased to say that I know of no member of this Parliament—from the Labour party or from any other party—who would argue against the view that the act has no place in a modern Scotland. However, the real question before us today is not whether members believe that to be the case, but whether a debate on the repeal of that age-old legislation should take precedence over the priorities of the Executive. Wrong as it is, the act has little relevance to the lives of ordinary Catholics. I believe that to be the case because I have spoken to fellow Catholics— those whom I meet every day in my constituency, the parents whom I meet at my children's schools, my friends and fellow parishioners where I attend mass every Sunday. We were elected to this Parliament in May to deliver on education, health, creating jobs, combating poverty and tackling crime. Labour is busy in both Parliaments—here in Edinburgh in coalition with the Liberal Democrats—pushing through bills that will have a positive impact on the lives of all our people, including the Catholic community. Labour has radically updated the British constitution, devolving power to this Parliament as promised, so let us dismiss the argument that Labour is slow on constitutional reform. That is a weak contention that holds no water. It is true that Labour did not include proposals for a debate on the repeal of the Act of Settlement in its election manifestos for Westminster or for Scotland. Neither, however, did the nationalists, the Tories or our Liberal partners. The view was that the act had little relevance to the lives of ordinary Catholics, and I believe that that is still the case. I wonder, therefore, why there is now such urgency to debate that irrelevancy. Where did it come from and how genuine is it? I can only conclude that the nationalists, in deciding to hold this debate, believe that repeal of the Act of Settlement should come before the people's priorities.", "EditedTextHTML": "Let me make it clear from the outset that the Act of Settlement is an anachronistic anomaly that runs contrary to the principles of inclusion and equality. As a member of a party founded on the principles of social justice, I am pleased to say that I know of no member of this Parliament—from the Labour party or from any other party—who would argue against the view that the act has no place in a modern Scotland. However, the real question before us today is not whether members believe that to be the case, but whether a debate on the repeal of that age-old legislation should take precedence over the priorities of the Executive.

Wrong as it is, the act has little relevance to the lives of ordinary Catholics. I believe that to be the case because I have spoken to fellow Catholics— those whom I meet every day in my constituency, the parents whom I meet at my children's schools, my friends and fellow parishioners where I attend mass every Sunday.

We were elected to this Parliament in May to deliver on education, health, creating jobs, combating poverty and tackling crime. Labour is

busy in both Parliaments—here in Edinburgh in coalition with the Liberal Democrats—pushing through bills that will have a positive impact on the lives of all our people, including the Catholic community. Labour has radically updated the British constitution, devolving power to this Parliament as promised, so let us dismiss the argument that Labour is slow on constitutional reform. That is a weak contention that holds no water.

It is true that Labour did not include proposals for a debate on the repeal of the Act of Settlement in its election manifestos for Westminster or for Scotland. Neither, however, did the nationalists, the Tories or our Liberal partners. The view was that the act had little relevance to the lives of ordinary Catholics, and I believe that that is still the case. I wonder, therefore, why there is now such urgency to debate that irrelevancy. Where did it come from and how genuine is it? I can only conclude that the nationalists, in deciding to hold this debate, believe that repeal of the Act of Settlement should come before the people's priorities.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1908E166P251C714327", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Kerr, Andy", "ID": 1908, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Kilbride" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andy Kerr", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Andy Kerr (East Kilbride) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 251.0, "ContributionID": 714327, "EditedText": "I feel some ownership of the debate. In the summer, Scotland on Sunday contacted Mike Russell and me about the prospect of the subject being raised in the Parliament. I said that that would be all right as long as it did not become a party political issue. I tell Tommy Sheridan that I am not being disingenuous in saying that I strongly object to the way in which Mike Russell has conducted himself in the debate. He did not come back to anyone— certainly not me—to say that he was thinking about lodging the motion. I am extremely upset at his performance, which demonstrates that we should be careful about such motions. Lord James Douglas-Hamilton warmly congratulated Mike Russell and suggested that now was the time to have the debate, as the millennium was coming. Did he not see the millennium coming when he was in office? We have had a constructive and warm debate on the matter and have talked about the need to send a message. However, the message was sent by the signing of the motion.In every debate, the Scottish National party talks about the devolution settlement. However, the people of Scotland have spoken loud and clear on the subject of devolution. The Act of Settlement is not a matter for this Parliament and is something of a distraction from the other things that the Parliament has to achieve.", "EditedTextHTML": "I feel some ownership of the debate. In the summer, Scotland on Sunday contacted Mike Russell and me about the prospect of the subject being raised in the Parliament. I said that that would be all right as long as it did not become a party political issue. I tell Tommy Sheridan that I am not being disingenuous in saying that I strongly object to the way in which Mike Russell has conducted himself in the debate. He did not come back to anyone— certainly not me—to say that he was thinking about lodging the motion. I am extremely upset at his performance, which demonstrates that we should be careful about such motions.

Lord James Douglas-Hamilton warmly congratulated Mike Russell and suggested that now was the time to have the debate, as the millennium was coming. Did he not see the millennium coming when he was in office?

We have had a constructive and warm debate on the matter and have talked about the need to send a message. However, the message was sent

by the signing of the motion.

In every debate, the Scottish National party talks about the devolution settlement. However, the people of Scotland have spoken loud and clear on the subject of devolution. The Act of Settlement is not a matter for this Parliament and is something of a distraction from the other things that the Parliament has to achieve.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C714328", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 253.0, "ContributionID": 714328, "EditedText": "How would Mr Kerr feel about a local authority discussing the matter? In particular, how does he feel about Glasgow City Council having done so, as it did two weeks ago? It passed unanimously a Labour motion that was in stronger terms than the one before Parliament today. Was that discussion a waste of time?", "EditedTextHTML": "How would Mr Kerr feel about a local authority discussing the matter? In particular, how does he feel about Glasgow City Council having done so, as it did two weeks ago? It passed unanimously a Labour motion that was in stronger terms than the one before Parliament today. Was that discussion a waste of time?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2090E83P266C714336", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAllion, Mr John", "ID": 2090, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dundee East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John McAllion", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr John McAllion (Dundee East) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 272.0, "ContributionID": 714336, "EditedText": "Religious discrimination—or sectarianism, to give it its real name—is one of the most difficult and deserving subjects that the Scottish Parliament can take on. I was born and grew up in Glasgow, a member of an Irish Catholic family. I grew up on the front line of the sectarian divide in Scotland. I remember my puzzlement, at the age of five, to discover that the boys with whom I played would go to a different school and that I would have to think of them as being different from me. I remember the Orange marches along our road, when half the families came out to wave, cheer and applaud, and the other half withdrew into their houses, pulled down the blinds and sat in the dark until the march had passed. I remember the insidious questions: \"What school do you go to? What team do you support?\" I remember the upwardly mobile Catholics who suddenly discovered a passion for Queen's Park Football Club, because they were frightened to say which team they really supported. Helping to rid Scotland of that sectarian stain could be one of the Parliament's greatest achievements. That is why I signed the motion and why I support the principles behind it. I would like to think that that is what today's debate is about. However, I am not sure. Why the Act of Settlement? Does the Act of Settlement lie at the root of sectarianism in Scotland? I do not think so. The Act of Settlement is an act of the English Parliament, passed at a time when the Scottish Parliament still existed. It did not apply in Scotland in 1701; it still does not apply in Scotland, because it has never been passed here as the Act of Settlement.", "EditedTextHTML": "Religious discrimination—or sectarianism, to give it its real name—is one of the most difficult and deserving subjects that the Scottish Parliament can take on. I was born and grew up in Glasgow, a member of an Irish Catholic family. I grew up on the front line of the sectarian divide in Scotland. I remember my puzzlement, at the age of five, to discover that the boys with whom I played would go to a different school and that I would have to think of them as being different from me.

I remember the Orange marches along our road, when half the families came out to wave, cheer and applaud, and the other half withdrew into their houses, pulled down the blinds and sat in the dark until the march had passed. I remember the insidious questions: \"What school do you go to? What team do you support?\" I remember the upwardly mobile Catholics who suddenly discovered a passion for Queen's Park Football Club, because they were frightened to say which team they really supported.

Helping to rid Scotland of that sectarian stain could be one of the Parliament's greatest achievements. That is why I signed the motion and why I support the principles behind it. I would like to think that that is what today's debate is about. However, I am not sure. Why the Act of Settlement? Does the Act of Settlement lie at the root of sectarianism in Scotland? I do not think so. The Act of Settlement is an act of the English Parliament, passed at a time when the Scottish Parliament still existed. It did not apply in Scotland in 1701; it still does not apply in Scotland, because it has never been passed here as the Act of Settlement.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2118E157P454C714343", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Quinan, Mr Lloyd", "ID": 2118, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lloyd Quinan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Quinan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 288.0, "ContributionID": 714343, "EditedText": "Does the member agree that she had the opportunity this morning to vote to discuss something that is within the competence of the Parliament, but that she voted against it?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the member agree that she had the opportunity this morning to vote to discuss something that is within the competence of the Parliament, but that she voted against it?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5294277+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C714359", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr David Davidson (North-East Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 322.0, "ContributionID": 714359, "EditedText": "I did not intend to do anything other than listen to the debate. I wanted to sense the mood of how the Parliament would end the last year of the century. My mother was a staunch Wee Free and met my father, who was a Catholic of Irish background, in Aberdeen. After they had been married for a while, she changed faith. We came to Edinburgh and I had to go to school. She was a lady of forthright manner; she knew what she did and did not like. She went to the local priest—she was not very used to the system of lads with frocks on who had some kind of dynamic power, as she described it. She went to Holycross Academy, as it then was, but decided that she did not like the headmaster— he was not the man for her boy. She went down the road and saw the sign for Trinity Academy, which, because of her background, she thought was another Catholic school. I was duly enrolled. Someone mentioned institutional bigotry. I was the only Catholic boy in a Protestant school and on the other side of the park was a Catholic school where they knew that there was a Catholic in the Protestant school. So what happened during snowball fights? My non-Catholic school friends protected me against my fellow parishioners with whom I went to mass. On the sports field I played fullback; I used to get thumped and my non- Catholic friends would thump the guys who thumped me. I understood through that that the children who went to those schools wore a blazer and that they fought the badge fight—like football and rugby clubs do every week—but did so for a strange reason, supposedly to do with faith. I came back to Scotland to find that the world had moved on. I have been back a few years now. I came to the chamber today thinking that we would see a difference. Our subject is not political; a party has chosen in its time, as is its right, to raise a subject for debate. Mr McCabe and others have commented on the use of parliamentary time, but if a party brings forward a subject—as the Executive does regularly—the rest of us must play our part and ensure that it is discussed correctly and in a forward-looking manner. The Scotland Act 1998 permits us to discuss anything that has an effect on the lives of people in Scotland and on Scotland's future. This debate was not supposed to give members an opportunity to go through the marvellous history lessons, although I thoroughly appreciated Lord James's version of the historical story, which he delivered in a very reasoned manner. Others have spoken well, such as John McAllion and Mike Russell. I even agreed with something that Mike Rumbles said—what a unique occasion.", "EditedTextHTML": "I did not intend to do anything other than listen to the debate. I wanted to sense the mood of how the Parliament would end the last year of the century.

My mother was a staunch Wee Free and met my father, who was a Catholic of Irish background, in Aberdeen. After they had been married for a while, she changed faith. We came to Edinburgh and I had to go to school. She was a lady of forthright manner; she knew what she did and did not like. She went to the local priest—she was not very used to the system of lads with frocks on who had some kind of dynamic power, as she described it. She went to Holycross Academy, as it then was, but decided that she did not like the headmaster— he was not the man for her boy. She went down the road and saw the sign for Trinity Academy, which, because of her background, she thought was another Catholic school. I was duly enrolled.

Someone mentioned institutional bigotry. I was the only Catholic boy in a Protestant school and on the other side of the park was a Catholic school where they knew that there was a Catholic in the Protestant school. So what happened during snowball fights? My non-Catholic school friends protected me against my fellow parishioners with whom I went to mass. On the sports field I played fullback; I used to get thumped and my non- Catholic friends would thump the guys who thumped me. I understood through that that the children who went to those schools wore a blazer and that they fought the badge fight—like football and rugby clubs do every week—but did so for a strange reason, supposedly to do with faith.

I came back to Scotland to find that the world had moved on. I have been back a few years now. I came to the chamber today thinking that we would see a difference. Our subject is not political; a party has chosen in its time, as is its right, to raise a subject for debate. Mr McCabe and others have commented on the use of parliamentary time, but if a party brings forward a subject—as the Executive does regularly—the rest of us must play our part and ensure that it is discussed correctly and in a forward-looking manner.

The Scotland Act 1998 permits us to discuss anything that has an effect on the lives of people in Scotland and on Scotland's future. This debate was not supposed to give members an opportunity to go through the marvellous history lessons, although I thoroughly appreciated Lord James's version of the historical story, which he delivered in a very reasoned manner. Others have spoken well, such as John McAllion and Mike Russell. I even agreed with something that Mike Rumbles said—what a unique occasion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2068E171P304C714360", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stone, Jamie", "ID": 2068, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie Stone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 324.0, "ContributionID": 714360, "EditedText": "Resign.", "EditedTextHTML": "Resign.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1837E108P186C714364", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mulligan, Mary", "ID": 1837, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Linlithgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Mulligan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Mulligan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 333.0, "ContributionID": 714364, "EditedText": "I assure Shona Robison that I would reject anyone's discrimination or bigotry. It is quite wrong for her to suggest that I would not.", "EditedTextHTML": "I assure Shona Robison that I would reject anyone's discrimination or bigotry. It is quite wrong for her to suggest that I would not.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C714371", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 348.0, "ContributionID": 714371, "EditedText": "We are very tight for time, Mr Henry.", "EditedTextHTML": "We are very tight for time, Mr Henry.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2029E47P167C714374", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Henry, Hugh", "ID": 2029, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Hugh Henry", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Hugh Henry: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 354.0, "ContributionID": 714374, "EditedText": "I am sorry, but I have alreadytaken an intervention.Recent reports indicate that people from an Irish Catholic background are more likely to die early, end up in prison or live in poverty. Behind all this is a history of discrimination and sectarianism, as John McAllion indicated. However, the legacy of that, as Scottish society begins to move on, is that such people are unable to play a full part in many areas of life because of their class and their position in society. Why do people from working-class backgrounds, as well as Catholics, not get into veterinary schools? Why are Catholics still underrepresented in certain professions in this country? Equally, however, working-class Protestants are under-represented in many of those professions. Why are the top civil servants in this country mainly products of private schools reflecting a certain class background? We need to have a mature debate about how our society should move forward. It would be far more relevant to Catholics and many other sections of our society if, in these three hours, we were to address some of the fundamental problems that affect people living in poverty throughout Scotland, whether they be Catholic, Jewish, Protestant or Muslim.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry, but I have already

taken an intervention.

Recent reports indicate that people from an Irish Catholic background are more likely to die early, end up in prison or live in poverty. Behind all this is a history of discrimination and sectarianism, as John McAllion indicated. However, the legacy of that, as Scottish society begins to move on, is that such people are unable to play a full part in many areas of life because of their class and their position in society.

Why do people from working-class backgrounds, as well as Catholics, not get into veterinary schools? Why are Catholics still underrepresented in certain professions in this country? Equally, however, working-class Protestants are under-represented in many of those professions. Why are the top civil servants in this country mainly products of private schools reflecting a certain class background? We need to have a mature debate about how our society should move forward. It would be far more relevant to Catholics and many other sections of our society if, in these three hours, we were to address some of the fundamental problems that affect people living in poverty throughout Scotland, whether they be Catholic, Jewish, Protestant or Muslim.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2029E47P167C714376", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Henry, Hugh", "ID": 2029, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Hugh Henry", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Hugh Henry: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 358.0, "ContributionID": 714376, "EditedText": "Sorry. I am about to finish.It is a credit to the Labour and trade union movement that we have put discrimination at the forefront of our agenda. Many of the gains that we have made are the result of the struggles of men and women over many years. One of the things that I am most proud of is that women—who, like Catholics, still cannot get into many golf or bowling clubs—are now better represented in this chamber because of the efforts of the Labour party in tackling discrimination.", "EditedTextHTML": "Sorry. I am about to finish.

It is a credit to the Labour and trade union movement that we have put discrimination at the forefront of our agenda. Many of the gains that we have made are the result of the struggles of men and women over many years. One of the things that I am most proud of is that women—who, like Catholics, still cannot get into many golf or bowling clubs—are now better represented in this chamber because of the efforts of the Labour party in tackling discrimination.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C714395", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Hampden Park", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27239, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 385.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 385.0, "ID": 27239, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Monteith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 403.0, "ContributionID": 714395, "EditedText": "I am not the ideologue The Herald says I am.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am not the ideologue The Herald says I am.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C714396", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Hampden Park", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27239, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 385.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 385.0, "ID": 27239, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Galbraith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 405.0, "ContributionID": 714396, "EditedText": "Not the ideologue, he says.Mr Monteith raises a number of issues. I do not think that it is helpful to look at the past to find who was responsible for what went wrong. Mistakes were made and all may not have been as well as it should have been, but no one individual can be blamed—boards were involved. Strict monitoring procedures were in place for our contribution. I cannot answer for the Millennium Commission—which is not our responsibility—or for others. Our money was all channelled through sportscotland, which received monthly updates of financial returns, and which visited the site regularly and received various certificates. We had very strict and tight controls over all those matters. There was no suggestion whatsoever of anything going wrong until the Millennium Commission pointed it out in July. We now have a national stadium—it is up and it is operational. It is best if we now look to the future.", "EditedTextHTML": "Not the ideologue, he says.

Mr Monteith raises a number of issues. I do not think that it is helpful to look at the past to find who was responsible for what went wrong. Mistakes were made and all may not have been as well as it should have been, but no one individual can be blamed—boards were involved.

Strict monitoring procedures were in place for our contribution. I cannot answer for the Millennium Commission—which is not our responsibility—or for others. Our money was all channelled through sportscotland, which received monthly updates of financial returns, and which visited the site regularly and received various certificates. We had very strict and tight controls over all those matters. There was no suggestion whatsoever of anything going wrong until the Millennium Commission pointed it out in July.

We now have a national stadium—it is up and it is operational. It is best if we now look to the future.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1863E284P532C714385", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Cunningham, Roseanna", "ID": 1863, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Perth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Roseanna Cunningham", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Roseanna Cunningham (Perth) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 381.0, "ContributionID": 714385, "EditedText": "The minister appears to be accusing the SNP of internationalism—a novel criticism from the Labour party, which usually accuses us of the opposite. I had hoped that today's debate would not be one in which everyone felt the need to preface their remarks by outlining their religious background. Michael McMahon started that ball rolling, and once it started rolling, the debate followed that course, so I will declare my interest; my name is Roseanna and my confirmation name is Bernadette. Members will be relieved to hear that I have no intention of marrying into the royal family—I dare say that the royal family will be relieved to hear it as well. Yesterday, Parliament spent almost three hours debating the Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill, which affects a law that is more than 300 years old; it is something like 800 years old. In effect, we have set about abolishing what is widely recognised to be an anachronism. However, it is only one of the anachronisms that remain enshrined in Scots law. This morning, we are debating another and some of the same arguments should, in principle, apply. We are, of course, empowered to sweep away one anachronism, but not the one that we are debating. I will say more about that later, but our lack of power to enact any repeal is not a reason why we cannot have an indicative vote on our wish to do to this legislation what we intend to do to feudal tenure. Let us be clear; we are talking about an anachronism that is couched in terms that are, in the words of Cardinal Winning, \"nasty, outdated and embarrassing language which should have no place in modern Britain.\" This Parliament has a link with the past, but it is not about the past; its purpose is to take Scotland into the future. It would be a great pity if we had to trail this baggage into the future. Comments have been made about the SNP taking up parliamentary time in debating a reserved matter—both Tom McCabe and Michael McMahon referred to that in their speeches. That line of argument will not wash. There is nothing to prevent the Scottish Parliament from debating and voting on a motion in which it petitions Westminster to change UK law. It was always envisaged that that would happen from time to time. From the earliest days of the Parliament it has been clear that it can discuss anything it likes, regardless of whether it can legislate on the subject. Today's debate does not waste any of the Executive's parliamentary time—as was suggested by Michael McMahon—nor does it disrupt its legislative programme. The SNP is using its time for the SNP's choice of debate. Previous SNP debates have been on the private finance initiative, education, pensioner poverty and agriculture; this is the first on a reserved matter. The fact that we are today seeking the widest possible consensus should be seen as a sign of generosity, not niggardliness. Both Mary Mulligan and Hugh Henry made remarks that were, perhaps, misplaced in the context of the debate. Michael McMahon's tone was also a little unfortunate. There was slight confusion in a number of speeches because members could not decide whether to attack the SNP for jumping on a populist bandwagon or for picking up on an irrelevant issue. They cannot have it both ways, but some members have tried to do so. The debate will draw attention to some of the many areas in which the Scottish Parliament is constrained by Westminster. Some of those issues, which are germane to this morning's debate, were touched on in the debate on equalities that was initiated by the Executive some weeks ago. As I said then, the SNP has always believed that a Scottish Parliament would present us with an opportunity to take radical steps forward in Scottish society; that it would take us into the 21st century with laws that ensure that there is no discrimination on the basis of sex, age, religion, race or sexual orientation. In that debate I highlighted religious discrimination. I also highlighted some of the points that were raised in the debate today, because of their specifically Scottish dimension. Because of that dimension and Scotland's particular history and experience, today's debate is of considerably greater importance than might otherwise have been the case. For us, in Scotland, the issue is of more than passing academic interest. All members will have received the interesting letter from the Orange Lodge, which tells us that: \"We have been following with interest the motion before the Scottish Parliament calling for a change in the ‘Act of Settlement', supported by some members who perceive it to be discriminatory.\" I bet that it has been following the debate with interest. The Orange Lodge's intervention reminds us forcefully of how important debates such as this can be in Scotland. John McAllion spoke eloquently of the experiences that he had while growing up. Those of us in the Parliament who were raised in the same faith will have shared many of those experiences. I look forward to motions in John McAllion's name, in the terms that he suggested, coming before this Parliament. On this issue we can, in truth, either defend ornot defend the discrimination—we cannot pretend that it is not discrimination. That would be to fly in the face of reality. The Parliament's Equal Opportunities Committee has recognised that and, as I understand it, it considers that the act has a negative impact on the equality of Scotland's people and has commended the matter to Westminster for its attention. The Parliament as a whole is entitled to do the same. I tabled a parliamentary question in the House of Commons, asking the Prime Minister whether he would \"make it his policy to seek to amend the law to (a) allow members of the Royal family to marry a Catholic without losing their right to inherit the throne and (b) allow Roman Catholics to inherit the throne\". I will read his answer in full:\"The Government have always stood firmly against discrimination in all its forms, including against Roman Catholics, and it will continue to do so. The Government have a heavy legislative programme aimed at delivering key manifesto commitments in areas such as health, education, crime and reform of the welfare system. To bring about change to the law on succession would be a complex undertaking involving amendment or repeal of a number of items of related legislation, as well as requiring the consent of the legislatures of member nations of the Commonwealth. It would raise other major constitutional issues. The Government have no plans to legislate in this area\".—Official Report, House of Commons, 13 December 1999; Vol 341, c 57W. That is a great pity. A number of speakers have commented on aspects of that approach, such as dealing with the likely attitudes of other Commonwealth countries and the extent to which a repeal here would impact on other legislation. My colleague, Mike Russell, mentioned information that we have received from Canada. Has anyone bothered to contact other Commonwealth countries to ask what their view of such a repeal would be? I suspect that many of those countries are simply unaware of the existence of this discriminatory legislation. It would be of some use if formal approaches could be made at this stage, to ascertain just how much of an obstacle those countries would be to repeal of the legislation. When there is political will and cross-party support, much supposed difficulty can be swept away. The idea of a royal commission has been floated in the ether, but I am not sure that I understand why such a commission would be necessary. We do not need guidance on the principle; we know that it is wrong. We need someone to examine the practicalities of making the change. At Westminster I took part in the introduction of a bill that was presented by Henry McLeish, who was then a Scottish Office minister with responsibility for justice. That bill took all of 30 minutes to go through all its stages in the House of Commons. I suggest to the Minister for Parliament—and to all other members who are concerned about the delay and difficulty involved—that he, and they, should accept that what I have just said is the case. With cross-party support, such legislation need not take the lengthy time to go through all its stages that has been talked about today. It can be dealt with quickly. All that SNP members ask is, \"Why is that not being done?\" All members, I believe, think that that omission is sad, and we can, at least, say so. The Parliament is the voice of Scotland. If the voice of Scotland wishes to make its position plain, it should not consider itself silenced merely by virtue of the fact that our vote cannot change the law. The debate might turn out to be simply the first step in the long grind referred to by my colleague, Colin Campbell. It sends out a clear message to the rest of the world: when we are confronted with the reality of discrimination, it is Parliament's duty to say, \"We do not agree.\" I listened to the minister's closing speech. The SNP will accept the amendment and I ask all members to support the motion and send a clear message to the world that there is no place for discrimination in our Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "The minister appears to be accusing the SNP of internationalism—a novel criticism from the Labour party, which usually accuses us of the opposite.

I had hoped that today's debate would not be one in which everyone felt the need to preface their remarks by outlining their religious background. Michael McMahon started that ball rolling, and once it started rolling, the debate followed that course, so I will declare my interest; my name is Roseanna and my confirmation name is Bernadette. Members will be relieved to hear that I have no intention of marrying into the royal family—I dare say that the royal family will be relieved to hear it as well.

Yesterday, Parliament spent almost three hours debating the Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill, which affects a law that is more than 300 years old; it is something like 800 years old. In effect, we have set about abolishing what is widely recognised to be an anachronism. However, it is only one of the anachronisms that remain enshrined in Scots law. This morning, we are debating another and some of the same arguments should, in principle, apply.

We are, of course, empowered to sweep away one anachronism, but not the one that we are debating. I will say more about that later, but our lack of power to enact any repeal is not a reason why we cannot have an indicative vote on our wish to do to this legislation what we intend to do to feudal tenure. Let us be clear; we are talking about an anachronism that is couched in terms that are, in the words of Cardinal Winning,

\"nasty, outdated and embarrassing language which should have no place in modern Britain.\"

This Parliament has a link with the past, but it is not about the past; its purpose is to take Scotland into the future. It would be a great pity if we had to trail this baggage into the future.

Comments have been made about the SNP taking up parliamentary time in debating a reserved matter—both Tom McCabe and Michael McMahon referred to that in their speeches. That line of argument will not wash. There is nothing to prevent the Scottish Parliament from debating and voting on a motion in which it petitions Westminster to change UK law. It was always envisaged that that would happen from time to time. From the earliest days of the Parliament it has been clear that it can discuss anything it likes, regardless of whether it can legislate on the subject.

Today's debate does not waste any of the Executive's parliamentary time—as was suggested by Michael McMahon—nor does it disrupt its legislative programme. The SNP is using its time for the SNP's choice of debate. Previous SNP debates have been on the private finance initiative, education, pensioner poverty and agriculture; this is the first on a reserved matter. The fact that we are today seeking the widest possible consensus should be seen as a sign of generosity, not niggardliness.

Both Mary Mulligan and Hugh Henry made remarks that were, perhaps, misplaced in the context of the debate. Michael McMahon's tone was also a little unfortunate. There was slight confusion in a number of speeches because members could not decide whether to attack the SNP for jumping on a populist bandwagon or for picking up on an irrelevant issue. They cannot have it both ways, but some members have tried to do so.

The debate will draw attention to some of the many areas in which the Scottish Parliament is constrained by Westminster. Some of those issues, which are germane to this morning's debate, were touched on in the debate on equalities that was initiated by the Executive some weeks ago. As I said then, the SNP has always believed that a Scottish Parliament would present us with an opportunity to take radical steps forward in Scottish society; that it would take us into the 21st century with laws that ensure that there is no discrimination on the basis of sex, age, religion, race or sexual orientation. In that debate I highlighted religious discrimination. I also highlighted some of the points that were raised in the debate today, because of their specifically Scottish dimension. Because of that dimension and Scotland's particular history and experience, today's debate is of considerably greater importance than might otherwise have been the case.

For us, in Scotland, the issue is of more than passing academic interest. All members will have received the interesting letter from the Orange Lodge, which tells us that:

\"We have been following with interest the motion before the Scottish Parliament calling for a change in the ‘Act of Settlement', supported by some members who perceive it to be discriminatory.\"

I bet that it has been following the debate with interest.

The Orange Lodge's intervention reminds us forcefully of how important debates such as this can be in Scotland. John McAllion spoke eloquently of the experiences that he had while growing up. Those of us in the Parliament who were raised in the same faith will have shared many of those experiences. I look forward to motions in John McAllion's name, in the terms that he suggested, coming before this Parliament.

On this issue we can, in truth, either defend or

not defend the discrimination—we cannot pretend that it is not discrimination. That would be to fly in the face of reality. The Parliament's Equal Opportunities Committee has recognised that and, as I understand it, it considers that the act has a negative impact on the equality of Scotland's people and has commended the matter to Westminster for its attention. The Parliament as a whole is entitled to do the same.

I tabled a parliamentary question in the House of Commons, asking the Prime Minister whether he would

\"make it his policy to seek to amend the law to (a) allow members of the Royal family to marry a Catholic without losing their right to inherit the throne and (b) allow Roman Catholics to inherit the throne\".

I will read his answer in full:

\"The Government have always stood firmly against discrimination in all its forms, including against Roman Catholics, and it will continue to do so.

The Government have a heavy legislative programme aimed at delivering key manifesto commitments in areas such as health, education, crime and reform of the welfare system. To bring about change to the law on succession would be a complex undertaking involving amendment or repeal of a number of items of related legislation, as well as requiring the consent of the legislatures of member nations of the Commonwealth. It would raise other major constitutional issues. The Government have no plans to legislate in this area\".—[Official Report, House of Commons, 13 December 1999; Vol 341, c 57W.]

That is a great pity. A number of speakers have commented on aspects of that approach, such as dealing with the likely attitudes of other Commonwealth countries and the extent to which a repeal here would impact on other legislation. My colleague, Mike Russell, mentioned information that we have received from Canada. Has anyone bothered to contact other Commonwealth countries to ask what their view of such a repeal would be? I suspect that many of those countries are simply unaware of the existence of this discriminatory legislation. It would be of some use if formal approaches could be made at this stage, to ascertain just how much of an obstacle those countries would be to repeal of the legislation.

When there is political will and cross-party support, much supposed difficulty can be swept away. The idea of a royal commission has been floated in the ether, but I am not sure that I understand why such a commission would be necessary. We do not need guidance on the principle; we know that it is wrong. We need someone to examine the practicalities of making the change.

At Westminster I took part in the introduction of a bill that was presented by Henry McLeish, who was then a Scottish Office minister with responsibility for justice. That bill took all of 30 minutes to go through all its stages in the House of Commons. I suggest to the Minister for Parliament—and to all other members who are concerned about the delay and difficulty involved—that he, and they, should accept that what I have just said is the case.

With cross-party support, such legislation need not take the lengthy time to go through all its stages that has been talked about today. It can be dealt with quickly. All that SNP members ask is, \"Why is that not being done?\" All members, I believe, think that that omission is sad, and we can, at least, say so. The Parliament is the voice of Scotland. If the voice of Scotland wishes to make its position plain, it should not consider itself silenced merely by virtue of the fact that our vote cannot change the law. The debate might turn out to be simply the first step in the long grind referred to by my colleague, Colin Campbell. It sends out a clear message to the rest of the world: when we are confronted with the reality of discrimination, it is Parliament's duty to say, \"We do not agree.\"

I listened to the minister's closing speech. The SNP will accept the amendment and I ask all members to support the motion and send a clear message to the world that there is no place for discrimination in our Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C714386", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 383.0, "ContributionID": 714386, "EditedText": "Thank you. The vote will be at decision time at 5 o'clock.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you. The vote will be at decision time at 5 o'clock.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C714387", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Hampden Park", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27239, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 385.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 385.0, "ID": 27239, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 386.0, "ContributionID": 714387, "EditedText": "We come now to the statement on Hampden Park. As this statement is rather longer than is usual, I will time the 20 minutes' question time from when the minister sits down.", "EditedTextHTML": "We come now to the statement on Hampden Park. As this statement is rather longer than is usual, I will time the 20 minutes' question time from when the minister sits down.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C714390", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Hampden Park", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27239, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 385.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 385.0, "ID": 27239, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Galbraith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 393.0, "ContributionID": 714390, "EditedText": "Even for the SNP, that was a super-girn. Ms Sturgeon must stop making wild accusations that are completely and utterly untrue. She has made a great fool of herself over this, on several occasions, and she is doing it again. She asked why we gave a press briefing. I am renowned for never giving off-the-record briefings to the press. On the issue of Hampden, I am renowned for saying nothing to the press—or anyone else—on my behalf or on behalf of the Scottish Executive.", "EditedTextHTML": "Even for the SNP, that was a super-girn. Ms Sturgeon must stop making wild accusations that are completely and utterly untrue. She has made a great fool of herself over this, on several occasions, and she is doing it again. She asked why we gave a press briefing. I am renowned for never giving off-the-record briefings to the press. On the issue of Hampden, I am renowned for saying nothing to the press—or anyone else—on my behalf or on behalf of the Scottish Executive.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C714392", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Hampden Park", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27239, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 385.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 385.0, "ID": 27239, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Galbraith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 397.0, "ContributionID": 714392, "EditedText": "Ms Sturgeon obviously thinks that I am lying and she must be able to justify that. That is a serious accusation, Presiding Officer. I hope that she will see fit to withdraw it. I have been very circumspect and have not released any information. These have been extremely difficult and detailed negotiations, involving many people. It is not appropriate to give a running commentary on them. This is not about achieving headlines, it is a serious matter that must be dealt with carefully. Ms Sturgeon also asked why money was originally put into the project. As I pointed out in my statement, that was not done by the Executive, but by a previous Administration, in 1996. She may wish to pursue the question in that respect. We picked up the situation—a stadium was being built and there was a deficit—and we had to deal with it. She has again made a great fool of herself over the question of where the money is coming from. Again she has made the wild accusation that the money is coming from education funding. Let me reassure the chamber that the money did not come from my education budget. I can state that categorically. The money was added to my budget in September from savings that were made across the Scottish Executive budget. I hope that I will receive an apology for yet another wild accusation in due course, but I will not hold my breath. Ms Sturgeon's final question related to the SFA's management of the project. We put in money to save the project; if we had not done so, Queen's Park Football Club and the stadium would have folded. If the SNP wants to save the project, it must accept the consequences of that— we had to put in money. We were prepared to put in further money only if there was a viable business plan—there is—and the management was sound. More than 50 per cent of the business plan is dependent on moneys from the SFA, so it is correct and appropriate that the SFA should manage the national stadium. It has expertise in the finance and marketing department. Chris Robinson is taking a particular interest. The SFA is setting up a wholly owned subsidiary and is seeking out someone from the commercial sector to run it. I am confident that the arrangements we have put in place are correct. We have saved the national stadium—the Scottish National party seeks to destroy it.", "EditedTextHTML": "Ms Sturgeon obviously thinks that I am lying and she must be able to justify that. That is a serious accusation, Presiding Officer. I hope that she will see fit to withdraw it. I have been very circumspect and have not released any information. These have been extremely difficult and detailed negotiations, involving many people. It is not appropriate to give a running commentary on them. This is not about achieving headlines, it is a serious matter that must be dealt with carefully.

Ms Sturgeon also asked why money was originally put into the project. As I pointed out in my statement, that was not done by the Executive, but by a previous Administration, in 1996. She may wish to pursue the question in that respect. We picked up the situation—a stadium was being built and there was a deficit—and we had to deal with it. She has again made a great fool of herself over the question of where the money is coming from. Again she has made the wild accusation that the money is coming from education funding. Let me reassure the chamber that the money did not come from my education budget. I can state that categorically. The money was added to my budget in September from savings that were made across the Scottish Executive budget. I hope that I will receive an apology for yet another wild accusation in due course, but I will not hold my breath.

Ms Sturgeon's final question related to the SFA's management of the project. We put in money to save the project; if we had not done so, Queen's Park Football Club and the stadium would have folded. If the SNP wants to save the project, it must accept the consequences of that— we had to put in money. We were prepared to put in further money only if there was a viable business plan—there is—and the management was sound.

More than 50 per cent of the business plan is dependent on moneys from the SFA, so it is correct and appropriate that the SFA should manage the national stadium. It has expertise in the finance and marketing department. Chris Robinson is taking a particular interest. The SFA is setting up a wholly owned subsidiary and is seeking out someone from the commercial sector to run it.

I am confident that the arrangements we have put in place are correct. We have saved the national stadium—the Scottish National party seeks to destroy it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C714400", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Hampden Park", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27239, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 385.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 385.0, "ID": 27239, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Galbraith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 413.0, "ContributionID": 714400, "EditedText": "I am not quite sure of the basis for that question, but I think that it is a nasty one. Have I been a guest? I can give a definite answer, because the records are all kept. I was certainly a guest at the Lithuania game, when I briefly discussed with the SFA the issues surrounding the national stadium, which I thought it was right and appropriate for me to do as I had responsibility for the stadium. I am sure that my friend Rhona Brankin has also been a guest. I can provide Fiona McLeod with exact details. I can see absolutely nothing wrong with being guests; if we had not been discussing the matter with the SFA, that would have been a disgrace and a basis for some comment.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am not quite sure of the basis for that question, but I think that it is a nasty one. Have I been a guest? I can give a definite answer, because the records are all kept. I was certainly a guest at the Lithuania game, when I briefly discussed with the SFA the issues surrounding the national stadium, which I thought it was right and appropriate for me to do as I had responsibility for

the stadium. I am sure that my friend Rhona Brankin has also been a guest. I can provide Fiona McLeod with exact details. I can see absolutely nothing wrong with being guests; if we had not been discussing the matter with the SFA, that would have been a disgrace and a basis for some comment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C714404", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Hampden Park", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27239, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 385.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 385.0, "ID": 27239, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Galbraith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 421.0, "ContributionID": 714404, "EditedText": "We will certainly want to review our monitoring arrangements to find out whether we could have detected signs of trouble. Our monitoring arrangements were very strict, with scrutiny of monthly financial returns and regular visits to the area to see what was happening. No signs of trouble were detected. The financial controls were good and the budget was still being kept to. We are always open to reviewing and monitoring our procedures to find out whether we can improve them.", "EditedTextHTML": "We will certainly want to review our monitoring arrangements to find out whether we could have detected signs of trouble. Our monitoring arrangements were very strict, with scrutiny of monthly financial returns and regular visits to the area to see what was happening. No signs of trouble were detected. The financial controls were good and the budget was still being kept to. We are always open to reviewing and monitoring our procedures to find out whether we can improve them.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C714406", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Hampden Park", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27239, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 385.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 385.0, "ID": 27239, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Galbraith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 425.0, "ContributionID": 714406, "EditedText": "The basis of legal agreements is that no one holds anyone to ransom. One of the reasons for the financial problems at Hampden is that two thirds of the debentures have not been sold. I hope that Mr Canavan is not suggesting that we pick up private companies' debts. That would be ridiculous.", "EditedTextHTML": "The basis of legal agreements is that no one holds anyone to ransom.

One of the reasons for the financial problems at Hampden is that two thirds of the debentures have not been sold. I hope that Mr Canavan is not suggesting that we pick up private companies' debts. That would be ridiculous.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2108E50P256C714407", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Hampden Park", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27239, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 385.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 385.0, "ID": 27239, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macintosh, Ken", "ID": 2108, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Eastwood" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ken Macintosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Kenneth Macintosh (Eastwood) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 427.0, "ContributionID": 714407, "EditedText": "I thank the minister for his statement. Although it is unfortunate that the stadium ran over budget, I welcome the fact that the Executive has recognised its role to find money to save the project. All parties should agree that that was the right thing for the Executive to do. Will the minister clarify the Executive's role in monitoring the project both up to the moment it became aware of the crisis and in future?", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the minister for his statement. Although it is unfortunate that the stadium ran over budget, I welcome the fact that the Executive has recognised its role to find money to save the project. All parties should agree that that was the right thing for the Executive to do.

Will the minister clarify the Executive's role in monitoring the project both up to the moment it became aware of the crisis and in future?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1865E219P509C714409", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Hampden Park", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27239, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 385.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 385.0, "ID": 27239, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "White, Sandra", "ID": 1865, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sandra White", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Sandra White (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 431.0, "ContributionID": 714409, "EditedText": "I hope Mr Galbraith will not use the word \"nasty\" about me. SNP members have not had much luck up to now; every time we have asked a question, he has given a negative answer. I want to reassure Mr Galbraith that the SNP has always been and will always be in favour of Hampden and I look forward to the retraction of his lie that the SNP did not support the project. MEMBERS: \"Ask a question.\" I will ask a question in two seconds. As members of a democratic party, we have the right to ask questions about this project.", "EditedTextHTML": "I hope Mr Galbraith will not use the word \"nasty\" about me. SNP members have not had much luck up to now; every time we have asked a question, he has given a negative answer.

I want to reassure Mr Galbraith that the SNP has always been and will always be in favour of Hampden and I look forward to the retraction of his lie that the SNP did not support the project. [MEMBERS: \"Ask a question.\"] I will ask a question in two seconds. As members of a democratic party, we have the right to ask questions about this project.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C714410", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Hampden Park", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27239, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 385.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 385.0, "ID": 27239, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 433.0, "ContributionID": 714410, "EditedText": "Please exercise that right.", "EditedTextHTML": "Please exercise that right.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1865E219P509C714411", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Hampden Park", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27239, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 385.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 385.0, "ID": 27239, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "White, Sandra", "ID": 1865, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sandra White", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms White: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 435.0, "ContributionID": 714411, "EditedText": "I will. How will the deal satisfy the strict rules imposed on local authorities by the Accounts Commission, which demands a distinct landlord and tenant? At Hampden, the SFA has been allowed to act as both landlord and tenant. Does the Labour Executive choose to ignore the rules that it imposes on other bodies? I hope that Mr Galbraith will not give me a nasty answer.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will. How will the deal satisfy the strict rules imposed on local authorities by the Accounts Commission, which demands a distinct landlord and tenant? At Hampden, the SFA has been allowed to act as both landlord and tenant. Does the Labour Executive choose to ignore the rules that it imposes on other bodies? I hope that Mr Galbraith will not give me a nasty answer.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C714412", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Hampden Park", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27239, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 385.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 385.0, "ID": 27239, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Galbraith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 437.0, "ContributionID": 714412, "EditedText": "I am a delightful chap who always likes to give nice answers even when people rant at me. The lady keeps saying how much the SNP is in favour of the national stadium, but every time one of its members speaks they give the distinct impression that they are against it. The SNP complains about everything and does everything in its power to break it with questions about why we are putting money into the stadium, why we are doing this and why we are doing that. My goodness; if SNP members are in favour of the stadium, they might show it a little bit better. The arrangement that has been agreed is legal and above board. No one has anything to be ashamed about.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am a delightful chap who always likes to give nice answers even when people rant at me. The lady keeps saying how much the SNP is in favour of the national stadium, but every time one of its members speaks they give the distinct impression that they are against it. The SNP complains about everything and does everything in its power to break it with questions about why we are putting money into the stadium, why we are doing this and why we are doing that. My goodness; if SNP members are in favour of the stadium, they might show it a little bit better.

The arrangement that has been agreed is legal and above board. No one has anything to be ashamed about.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C714415", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Hampden Park", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27239, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 385.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 385.0, "ID": 27239, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan (Glasgow) (SSP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 443.0, "ContributionID": 714415, "EditedText": "I am glad to agree with Ian Welsh. Although the matter is not up for debate, it is worth putting on record that the money would have been better used improving facilities throughout the country, instead of building another national stadium in Glasgow. Is the minister convinced that the business plan is viable and that it will ensure a commercial return within a reasonable time scale? I see that the minister is nodding, which helps me to ask my second question. If he is convinced that the agreed business plan is commercially viable, does he agree that it would be a better use of public money if the Executive agreed to a long-term interest-free loan, on the basis that the money could be returned once the business plan is able to achieve a return?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am glad to agree with Ian Welsh. Although the matter is not up for debate, it is worth putting on record that the money would have been better used improving facilities throughout the country, instead of building another national stadium in Glasgow. Is the minister convinced that the business plan is viable and that it will ensure a commercial return within a reasonable time scale? I see that the minister is nodding, which helps me to ask my second question. If he is convinced that the agreed business plan is commercially viable, does he agree that it would be a better use of public money if the Executive agreed to a long-term interest-free loan, on the basis that the money could be returned once the business plan is able to achieve a return?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C714416", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Hampden Park", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27239, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 385.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 385.0, "ID": 27239, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Galbraith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 445.0, "ContributionID": 714416, "EditedText": "The member must realise that there are two distinct issues: the £6 million owed to Sir Robert McAlpine, which must be found now, and the fact that we were not willing to put in additional public money if the business plan was not suitable. We could not just pour money in only for the same issue to come back a number of years later. We had to pay off the deficit, which we have done, but it was necessary to have a solid business plan and the correct management arrangements to convince us to provide the package. Whether we need a stadium is water under the bridge. We picked up the stadium with a deficit. We had to deal with the issue, which we did as best we could.", "EditedTextHTML": "The member must realise that there are two distinct issues: the £6 million owed to Sir Robert McAlpine, which must be found now, and the fact that we were not willing to put in additional public money if the business plan was not suitable. We could not just pour money in only for the same issue to come back a number of years later. We had to pay off the deficit, which we have done, but it was necessary to have a solid business plan and the correct management arrangements to convince us to provide the package.

Whether we need a stadium is water under the bridge. We picked up the stadium with a deficit. We had to deal with the issue, which we did as best we could.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C714418", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Hampden Park", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27239, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 385.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 385.0, "ID": 27239, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Galbraith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 449.0, "ContributionID": 714418, "EditedText": "Many problems face football. Most of the solutions rest with the governing bodies and the football authorities. One thing on which I can assure Ian Jenkins is that the funding package in no way affects either our commitment to the proposed youth academies or the money that we have already contributed. I have always considered that two things have to be done—not just in football, but for all sport. First, we must ensure, by funding excellence in sport, that everyone realises their potential. Secondly, we should build up a large base of youth sport from which future champions can be generated. That raises awareness and more folk are in turn drawn into the base—it is a virtuous circle, which is good both for sport and for the health of individuals. It is also good for the nation.", "EditedTextHTML": "Many problems face football. Most of the solutions rest with the governing bodies and the football authorities. One thing on which I can assure Ian Jenkins is that the funding package in no way affects either our commitment to the proposed youth academies or the money that we have already contributed.

I have always considered that two things have to be done—not just in football, but for all sport. First, we must ensure, by funding excellence in sport, that everyone realises their potential. Secondly, we should build up a large base of youth sport from which future champions can be generated. That raises awareness and more folk are in turn drawn into the base—it is a virtuous circle, which is good both for sport and for the health of individuals. It is also good for the nation.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C714419", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27240, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 451.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 451.0, "ID": 27240, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 452.0, "ContributionID": 714419, "EditedText": "We must move on to the next item of business, motion S1M-381, in the name of Tom McCabe, on the business programme.", "EditedTextHTML": "We must move on to the next item of business, motion S1M-381, in the name of Tom McCabe, on the business programme.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "C714420", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27240, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 451.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 451.0, "ID": 27240, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 454.0, "ContributionID": 714420, "EditedText": "Motion moved,", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion moved,

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "C714424", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27240, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 451.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 451.0, "ID": 27240, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 458.0, "ContributionID": 714424, "EditedText": "5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business", "EditedTextHTML": "5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C714431", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27240, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 451.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 451.0, "ID": 27240, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 465.0, "ContributionID": 714431, "EditedText": "There are no objections, but I have to put the question. The question is, that business motion S1M-381 be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "There are no objections, but I have to put the question. The question is, that business motion S1M-381 be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "C714435", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Deputy Conveners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27241, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 468.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 468.0, "ID": 27241, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 472.0, "ContributionID": 714435, "EditedText": "That the Parliament agrees that the party from which the deputy convener should be appointed for its committees be as set out as follows:", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament agrees that the party from which the deputy convener should be appointed for its committees be as set out as follows:

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "C714436", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Deputy Conveners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27241, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 468.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 468.0, "ID": 27241, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 473.0, "ContributionID": 714436, "EditedText": "Committee Deputy Convener Audit Con Equal Opportunities SNP European Lab Finance Lab Procedures Lab Public Petitions Lab Subordinate Legislation Lib Dem Standards SNP Education, Culture and Sport Lab Social Inclusion, Housing and Voluntary Sector SNP Local Government Lab Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Con Health and Community Care Lab Transport and the Environment Lib Dem Justice and Home Affairs Lab Rural Affairs SNP", "EditedTextHTML": "Committee Deputy Convener Audit Con Equal Opportunities SNP European Lab Finance Lab Procedures Lab Public Petitions Lab Subordinate Legislation Lib Dem Standards SNP Education, Culture and Sport Lab Social Inclusion, Housing and Voluntary Sector SNP Local Government Lab Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Con Health and Community Care Lab Transport and the Environment Lib Dem Justice and Home Affairs Lab Rural Affairs SNP

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "C714439", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Deputy Conveners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27241, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 468.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 468.0, "ID": 27241, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 477.0, "ContributionID": 714439, "EditedText": "On resuming—", "EditedTextHTML": "On resuming—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C714443", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27242, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 478.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27243, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 479.0, "QuestionHeading": "Prime Minister (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27244, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 482.0, "DisplayOrder": 482.0, "ID": 27244, "ParentID": 27243 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 487.0, "ContributionID": 714443, "EditedText": "Order. We have had the question.", "EditedTextHTML": "Order. We have had the question.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C714444", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27242, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 478.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27243, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 479.0, "QuestionHeading": "Prime Minister (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27244, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 482.0, "DisplayOrder": 482.0, "ID": 27244, "ParentID": 27243 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 489.0, "ContributionID": 714444, "EditedText": "Is the First Minister a man or a puppet?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is the First Minister a man or a puppet?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2118E157P454C714448", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27242, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 478.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27243, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 479.0, "QuestionHeading": "Housing Partnership Initiative", "QuestionHeadingID": 27245, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 493.0, "DisplayOrder": 493.0, "ID": 27245, "ParentID": 27243 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Quinan, Mr Lloyd", "ID": 2118, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lloyd Quinan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Quinan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 498.0, "ContributionID": 714448, "EditedText": "In light of Shelter Scotland's report this morning that 4,000 children will be homeless over Christmas, what plans does the Executive have to ensure that the new housing partnership process will not only maintain homeless people's rights, but will improve and increase provision?", "EditedTextHTML": "In light of Shelter Scotland's report this morning that 4,000 children will be homeless over Christmas, what plans does the Executive have to ensure that the new housing partnership process will not only maintain homeless people's rights, but will improve and increase provision?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1876E194P490C714450", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27242, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 478.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27243, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 479.0, "QuestionHeading": "Criminal Injuries Compensation Authority", "QuestionHeadingID": 27246, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 502.0, "DisplayOrder": 502.0, "ID": 27246, "ParentID": 27243 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Marwick, Tricia", "ID": 1876, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tricia Marwick", "SpeakerDisplayName": "3. Tricia Marwick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 503.0, "ContributionID": 714450, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive, further to the answer by Lord Hardie to question S1O-619 on 18 November 1999, whether it will now make representations to the Criminal Injuries Compensation Authority about delays in handling claims on behalf of victims of crime in Scotland. (S1O-852) The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice (Mr Jim Wallace): I understand that extra members are now being recruited to the criminal injuries compensation appeal panel in order to deal with cases more quickly.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive, further to the answer by Lord Hardie to question S1O-619 on 18 November 1999, whether it will now make representations to the Criminal Injuries Compensation Authority about delays in handling claims on behalf of victims of crime in Scotland. (S1O-852) The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice (Mr Jim Wallace): I understand that extra members are now being recruited to the criminal injuries compensation appeal panel in order to deal with cases more quickly.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C714452", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27242, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 478.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27243, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 479.0, "QuestionHeading": "Criminal Injuries Compensation Authority", "QuestionHeadingID": 27246, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 502.0, "DisplayOrder": 502.0, "ID": 27246, "ParentID": 27243 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 507.0, "ContributionID": 714452, "EditedText": "As Tricia Marwick will recognise, appeals to the Criminal Injuries Compensation Authority—formerly the Criminal Injuries Compensation Board—are demand led. There is indeed a backlog, but the authority is undoubtedly committed to reducing waiting times. I certainly do not condone people having to wait for up to nine years. Scottish ministers have recently agreed that the appeal panel can appoint approximately 40 new members, around five of whom will be recruited from Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "As Tricia Marwick will recognise, appeals to the Criminal Injuries Compensation Authority—formerly the Criminal Injuries Compensation Board—are demand led. There is indeed a backlog, but the authority is undoubtedly committed to reducing waiting times. I certainly do not condone people having to wait for up to nine years. Scottish ministers have recently agreed that the appeal panel can appoint approximately 40 new members, around five of whom will be recruited from Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1768E72P274C714453", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27242, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 478.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27243, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 479.0, "QuestionHeading": "Prisons", "QuestionHeadingID": 27247, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 509.0, "DisplayOrder": 509.0, "ID": 27247, "ParentID": 27243 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Murray, Elaine", "ID": 1768, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumfries" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Murray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "4. Dr Elaine Murray (Dumfries) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 510.0, "ContributionID": 714453, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether a speculative bid may be made by a private company for the purchase of Penninghame and Dungavel prisons and Dumfries young offenders institution, and whether it will rule out considering a positive response to an approach of that nature. (S1O-887) The Deputy Minister for Justice (Angus MacKay): Plans are in hand for HMP Penninghame and HMP Dungavel to be offered for sale on the open market. It is open to any organisation or individual whether or not they make a bid to purchase. There are no plans to sell HMYOI Dumfries.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether a speculative bid may be made by a private company for the purchase of Penninghame and Dungavel prisons and Dumfries young offenders institution, and whether it will rule out considering a positive response to an approach of that nature. (S1O-887) The Deputy Minister for Justice (Angus MacKay): Plans are in hand for HMP Penninghame and HMP Dungavel to be offered for sale on the open market. It is open to any organisation or individual whether or not they make a bid to purchase. There are no plans to sell HMYOI Dumfries.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1768E72P274C714454", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27242, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 478.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27243, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 479.0, "QuestionHeading": "Prisons", "QuestionHeadingID": 27247, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 509.0, "DisplayOrder": 509.0, "ID": 27247, "ParentID": 27243 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Murray, Elaine", "ID": 1768, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumfries" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Murray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Murray: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 512.0, "ContributionID": 714454, "EditedText": "I am partially reassured by the minister's response, as I was by the reply to my written question on the subject, which indicated that there were no plans for the use or creation of any privately owned and operated prisons in Scotland other than Kilmarnock. Is the minister aware that that is one of a number of rumours currently circulating in the Scottish Prison Service and that many prison officers believe that the current cuts and the loss of 374 jobs are only the first stage of a far more radical reorganisation of the service? Does he agree that there is a need for members of the Prison Service, through their trade unions, to be more closely involved in discussions on and plans for the future of their service?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am partially reassured by the minister's response, as I was by the reply to my written question on the subject, which indicated that there were no plans for the use or creation of any privately owned and operated prisons in Scotland other than Kilmarnock. Is the minister aware that that is one of a number of rumours currently circulating in the Scottish Prison Service and that many prison officers believe that the current cuts and the loss of 374 jobs are only the first stage of a far more radical reorganisation of the service? Does he agree that there is a need for members of the Prison Service, through their trade unions, to be more closely involved in discussions on and plans for the future of their service?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C714455", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27242, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 478.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27243, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 479.0, "QuestionHeading": "Prisons", "QuestionHeadingID": 27247, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 509.0, "DisplayOrder": 509.0, "ID": 27247, "ParentID": 27243 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Angus MacKay: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 514.0, "ContributionID": 714455, "EditedText": "There are no cuts in the Prison Service. The Prison Service budget is scheduled to increase year on year. No formal or informal discussions or approaches are taking place with regard to private organisations taking over those prisons to run them as prison facilities.", "EditedTextHTML": "There are no cuts in the Prison Service. The Prison Service budget is scheduled to increase year on year. No formal or informal discussions or approaches are taking place with regard to private organisations taking over those prisons to run them as prison facilities.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1850E185P354C714457", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27242, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 478.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27243, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 479.0, "QuestionHeading": "Rural Schools", "QuestionHeadingID": 27248, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 516.0, "DisplayOrder": 516.0, "ID": 27248, "ParentID": 27243 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Radcliffe, Nora", "ID": 1850, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Gordon" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nora Radcliffe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nora Radcliffe: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 519.0, "ContributionID": 714457, "EditedText": "The minister may be aware that Moray Council yesterday approved the closure of Boharm Primary School in my constituency, despite a well-argued campaign to keep the school open. Will he assure the community of Mulben that the Scottish Executive will listen to its arguments and that the school will not be closed on purely financial grounds?", "EditedTextHTML": "The minister may be aware that Moray Council yesterday approved the closure of Boharm Primary School in my constituency, despite a well-argued campaign to keep the school open. Will he assure the community of Mulben that the Scottish Executive will listen to its arguments and that the school will not be closed on purely financial grounds?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2207E94P262C714467", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27242, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 478.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27243, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 479.0, "QuestionHeading": "Child Welfare", "QuestionHeadingID": 27251, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 539.0, "DisplayOrder": 539.0, "ID": 27251, "ParentID": 27243 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Barrie, Scott", "ID": 2207, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dunfermline West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Scott Barrie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Scott Barrie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 542.0, "ContributionID": 714467, "EditedText": "Given that the United Kingdom is currently in breach of a judgment of the European Court of Human Rights, does the Deputy First Minister agree with me on the need for a speedy resolution to this issue, at least with regard to using an implement on a child?", "EditedTextHTML": "Given that the United Kingdom is currently in breach of a judgment of the European Court of Human Rights, does the Deputy First Minister agree with me on the need for a speedy resolution to this issue, at least with regard to using an implement on a child?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C714469", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27242, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 478.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27243, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 479.0, "QuestionHeading": "Prisoners (Drug Misuse)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27252, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 546.0, "DisplayOrder": 546.0, "ID": 27252, "ParentID": 27243 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "9. Dr Richard Simpson (Ochil) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 547.0, "ContributionID": 714469, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what external consultation has taken place or will take place before the conclusion and publication of \"Partnership and co-ordination— the Scottish Prison Service Action on Drugs\", the revised guidance on the management of drug misuse by Scotland's prisoners. (S1O-838) The Deputy Minister for Justice (Angus MacKay): The Scottish Prison Service has engaged with a number of external bodies in producing its revised drug strategy. These have included the Medical Research Council, the Scottish Advisory Committee on Drug Misuse, directors of social work, the chief medical officer, chief constables, and over 50 community agencies.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what external consultation has taken place or will take place before the conclusion and publication of \"Partnership and co-ordination— the Scottish Prison Service Action on Drugs\", the revised guidance on the management of drug misuse by Scotland's prisoners. (S1O-838) The Deputy Minister for Justice (Angus MacKay): The Scottish Prison Service has engaged with a number of external bodies in producing its revised drug strategy. These have included the Medical Research Council, the

Scottish Advisory Committee on Drug Misuse, directors of social work, the chief medical officer, chief constables, and over 50 community agencies.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1906E278P355C714475", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27242, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 478.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27243, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 479.0, "QuestionHeading": "Pig Farming", "QuestionHeadingID": 27253, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 553.0, "DisplayOrder": 553.0, "ID": 27253, "ParentID": 27243 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Welsh, Andrew", "ID": 1906, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Angus" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Welsh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Welsh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 560.0, "ContributionID": 714475, "EditedText": "Perhaps the minister does not talk to Europe. Would the statement of Commissioner Franz Fischler be of any help to him? He said that \"aid to cover the costs of BSE which had been accepted as an exceptional occurrence would be allowable\". The minister might also consider the statement from the pig and poultry division that \"any national aid to balance the effect of national measures would not be seen as market distortions and would be allowed under EU rules\". Stop dithering and take action for the industry.", "EditedTextHTML": "Perhaps the minister does not talk to Europe. Would the statement of Commissioner Franz Fischler be of any help to him? He said that

\"aid to cover the costs of BSE which had been accepted as an exceptional occurrence would be allowable\".

The minister might also consider the statement from the pig and poultry division that

\"any national aid to balance the effect of national measures would not be seen as market distortions and would be allowed under EU rules\".

Stop dithering and take action for the industry.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5450517+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C714485", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27242, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 478.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27243, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 479.0, "QuestionHeading": "Smoking", "QuestionHeadingID": 27256, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 578.0, "DisplayOrder": 578.0, "ID": 27256, "ParentID": 27243 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 583.0, "ContributionID": 714485, "EditedText": "As I said in the debate on public health just after the summer recess, it is crucial that we take action at national and local levels to improve the health of the Scottish people. Local initiatives such as that mentioned by Patricia Ferguson are an excellent example of such action. The £250,000 scheme that I was pleased to launch last week, with Action on Smoking and Health Scotland, to help those in deprived communities to stop smoking is another practical example. I hope that much more such work will take place throughout Scotland in future.", "EditedTextHTML": "As I said in the debate on public health just after the summer recess, it is crucial that we take action at national and local levels to improve the health of the Scottish people. Local initiatives such as that mentioned by Patricia Ferguson are an excellent example of such action.

The £250,000 scheme that I was pleased to launch last week, with Action on Smoking and Health Scotland, to help those in deprived communities to stop smoking is another practical example. I hope that much more such work will take place throughout Scotland in future.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1931E120P189C714491", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27242, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 478.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27243, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 479.0, "QuestionHeading": "Road Accidents", "QuestionHeadingID": 27258, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 596.0, "DisplayOrder": 596.0, "ID": 27258, "ParentID": 27243 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Muldoon, Bristow", "ID": 1931, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Livingston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bristow Muldoon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "15. Bristow Muldoon (Livingston) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 597.0, "ContributionID": 714491, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what initiatives it plans to reduce the level of fatal and serious road accidents. (S1O-886) The Minister for Transport and the Environment (Sarah Boyack): The Scottish Executive and the UK Government will be publishing in the new year a road safety strategy for the period to 2010. Since 1980, fatal and serious accidents on Scottish roads have halved.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what initiatives it plans to reduce the level of fatal and serious road accidents. (S1O-886) The Minister for Transport and the Environment (Sarah Boyack): The Scottish Executive and the UK Government will be publishing in the new year a road safety strategy for the period to 2010. Since 1980, fatal and serious accidents on Scottish roads have halved.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1931E120P189C714492", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27242, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 478.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27243, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 479.0, "QuestionHeading": "Road Accidents", "QuestionHeadingID": 27258, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 596.0, "DisplayOrder": 596.0, "ID": 27258, "ParentID": 27243 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Muldoon, Bristow", "ID": 1931, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Livingston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bristow Muldoon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bristow Muldoon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 599.0, "ContributionID": 714492, "EditedText": "Would the minister consider extending local authorities' powers to allow them to impose measures to regulate speeding on Scottish roads?", "EditedTextHTML": "Would the minister consider extending local authorities' powers to allow them to impose measures to regulate speeding on Scottish roads?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1828E200P487C714494", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27242, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 478.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27243, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 479.0, "QuestionHeading": "Holyrood Project", "QuestionHeadingID": 27259, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 603.0, "DisplayOrder": 603.0, "ID": 27259, "ParentID": 27243 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacDonald, Margo", "ID": 1828, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margo MacDonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "16. Ms Margo MacDonald (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 604.0, "ContributionID": 714494, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what are the implications for its budget if the cost of the Holyrood project increases beyond that currently planned for. (S1O-892)", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what are the implications for its budget if the cost of the Holyrood project increases beyond that currently planned for. (S1O-892)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C714497", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27242, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 478.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27243, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 479.0, "QuestionHeading": "Holyrood Project", "QuestionHeadingID": 27259, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 603.0, "DisplayOrder": 603.0, "ID": 27259, "ParentID": 27243 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 610.0, "ContributionID": 714497, "EditedText": "Those are matters for the SPCB. It is right and proper for us to leave it to that body to keep members informed on those issues.", "EditedTextHTML": "Those are matters for the SPCB. It is right and proper for us to leave it to that body to keep members informed on those issues.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2090E83P266C714500", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27242, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 478.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27243, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 479.0, "QuestionHeading": "Housing", "QuestionHeadingID": 27260, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 614.0, "DisplayOrder": 614.0, "ID": 27260, "ParentID": 27243 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAllion, Mr John", "ID": 2090, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dundee East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John McAllion", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McAllion: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 617.0, "ContributionID": 714500, "EditedText": "The minister has estimated that around 850 houses for rent could be sold as a result of the proposed extension to the right to buy. How does she respond to the SFHA's estimate that as many as 15,000 houses for rent could be sold each year as a result of such an extension? Does she agree that the right to rent decent and affordable housing for the poor who cannot afford to buy is fundamental to any social inclusion strategy and is directly threatened by the proposals, which may lead to indiscriminate sales under the right to buy?", "EditedTextHTML": "The minister has estimated that around 850 houses for rent could be sold as a result of the proposed extension to the right to buy. How does she respond to the SFHA's estimate that as many as 15,000 houses for rent could be sold each year as a result of such an extension? Does she agree that the right to rent decent and affordable housing for the poor who cannot afford to buy is fundamental to any social inclusion strategy and is directly threatened by the proposals, which may lead to indiscriminate sales under the right to buy?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C714503", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27242, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 478.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27243, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 479.0, "QuestionHeading": "Child Care Strategy", "QuestionHeadingID": 27261, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 621.0, "DisplayOrder": 621.0, "ID": 27261, "ParentID": 27243 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Children and Education (Mr Sam Galbraith): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 624.0, "ContributionID": 714503, "EditedText": "The national child care website went live on 15 November. The national child care information line is ready now. However, purely for marketing reasons, I decided to delay publicising the service until January.", "EditedTextHTML": "The national child care website went live on 15 November. The national child care information line is ready now. However, purely for marketing reasons, I decided to delay publicising the service until January.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C714507", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27262, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 630.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27263, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 631.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27264, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 632.0, "DisplayOrder": 632.0, "ID": 27264, "ParentID": 27263 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 635.0, "ContributionID": 714507, "EditedText": "Will the First Minister explain the remarkable interview that appeared in the Scottish edition of The Mirror yesterday? He was asked whether he liked being First Minister and replied: \"It's not a quiet life. I sometimes sit in this office and wonder if the roof is going to fall in on me because everything else has happened.\" On the basis that a problem shared is a problem halved, will the First Minister share with the Parliament what issues have persuaded him that the roof is falling in on his Administration?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the First Minister explain the remarkable interview that appeared in the Scottish edition of The Mirror yesterday? He was asked whether he liked being First Minister and replied:

\"It's not a quiet life. I sometimes sit in this office and wonder if the roof is going to fall in on me because everything else has happened.\"

On the basis that a problem shared is a problem halved, will the First Minister share with the Parliament what issues have persuaded him that the roof is falling in on his Administration?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C714508", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27262, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 630.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27263, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 631.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27264, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 632.0, "DisplayOrder": 632.0, "ID": 27264, "ParentID": 27263 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 637.0, "ContributionID": 714508, "EditedText": "I am certainly not going to flatter Mr Salmond by telling him that he is one of them. I am prepared to admit that the job that I occupy is testing and satisfying—as, no doubt, is Mr Salmond's job. We are making progress, but we are wrestling with difficult and well-established trends and social problems. I look forward to discussing those matters with Mr Salmond after a decent interval when, no doubt, he will be able to congratulate me on the progress that we are making.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am certainly not going to flatter Mr Salmond by telling him that he is one of them.

I am prepared to admit that the job that I occupy is testing and satisfying—as, no doubt, is Mr Salmond's job. We are making progress, but we are wrestling with difficult and well-established trends and social problems. I look forward to discussing those matters with Mr Salmond after a decent interval when, no doubt, he will be able to congratulate me on the progress that we are making.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C714509", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27262, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 630.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27263, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 631.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27264, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 632.0, "DisplayOrder": 632.0, "ID": 27264, "ParentID": 27263 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 639.0, "ContributionID": 714509, "EditedText": "In that case, perhaps I can suggest what the issues might be. Could one be the sacking of John Rafferty, an affair for which this Parliament has yet to receive an effective explanation? Could the issues be the First Minister's being kept in the dark over the beef issue, the fact that 6,000 square miles of fishing waters were stolen from Scotland or the 3,000 job losses in the Highlands? Could the issues be poverty and the people's health in Glasgow? Are those the issues that persuade the First Minister that the roof is falling in? If they are not, they should be.", "EditedTextHTML": "In that case, perhaps I can suggest what the issues might be.

Could one be the sacking of John Rafferty, an affair for which this Parliament has yet to receive an effective explanation? Could the issues be the First Minister's being kept in the dark over the beef issue, the fact that 6,000 square miles of fishing waters were stolen from Scotland or the 3,000 job losses in the Highlands? Could the issues be poverty and the people's health in Glasgow? Are those the issues that persuade the First Minister that the roof is falling in? If they are not, they should be.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C714514", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27262, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 630.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27263, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 631.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27264, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 632.0, "DisplayOrder": 632.0, "ID": 27264, "ParentID": 27263 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 649.0, "ContributionID": 714514, "EditedText": "I did not discuss that with the Secretary of State for Scotland. It would have been odd if I had, given the time of my previous meeting with him. I have not seen the details of the Bulger judgment; it relates to the system of dealing with very young offenders and to a tragic case that occurred in England. I doubt that it will have great, immediate and direct implications for our system in Scotland. I have no doubt that the Executive will consider the matter closely and that we will be given good advice on it.", "EditedTextHTML": "I did not discuss that with the Secretary of State for Scotland. It would have been odd if I had, given the time of my previous meeting with him.

I have not seen the details of the Bulger judgment; it relates to the system of dealing with very young offenders and to a tragic case that occurred in England. I doubt that it will have great, immediate and direct implications for our system in Scotland. I have no doubt that the Executive will consider the matter closely and that we will be given good advice on it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C714521", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27262, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 630.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27263, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 631.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27264, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 632.0, "DisplayOrder": 632.0, "ID": 27264, "ParentID": 27263 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 663.0, "ContributionID": 714521, "EditedText": "I remember that when we changed the Gregorian calendar, people went round saying, \"Give us back our 10 days.\" Laughter. An inevitable consequence of devolution was that an administrative boundary would have to be drawn. It was drawn according to the advice given to me—and I looked into this carefully—on the normal rules of international law. It does not in any way whatever affect the right to fish. I must tell Mr Lochhead that it was put to me by one fisherman that the drawing of the boundary was a terrible blow, because it meant that if he were to fish illegally, he would come before an English court. I know that Scottish fishermen do not fish illegally.", "EditedTextHTML": "I remember that when we changed the Gregorian calendar, people went round saying, \"Give us back our 10 days.\" [Laughter.]

An inevitable consequence of devolution was that an administrative boundary would have to be drawn. It was drawn according to the advice given to me—and I looked into this carefully—on the normal rules of international law. It does not in any way whatever affect the right to fish.

I must tell Mr Lochhead that it was put to me by one fisherman that the drawing of the boundary was a terrible blow, because it meant that if he were to fish illegally, he would come before an English court. I know that Scottish fishermen do not fish illegally.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C714524", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27262, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 630.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27263, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 631.0, "QuestionHeading": "Dyslexia", "QuestionHeadingID": 27265, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 665.0, "DisplayOrder": 665.0, "ID": 27265, "ParentID": 27263 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Galbraith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 670.0, "ContributionID": 714524, "EditedText": "Yes. The member is right—it is important to pick up dyslexia early if it is to be dealt with effectively. I am pleased to be able to tell her that in 1998-99, 165 teachers received training in dyslexia awareness and early identification of it through a project funded jointly by the Scottish Executive and the Scottish Dyslexia Trust. The expansion of pre-school education and early intervention will also help us to identify earlier those children who suffer from dyslexia.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes. The member is right—it is important to pick up dyslexia early if it is to be dealt with effectively. I am pleased to be able to tell her that in 1998-99, 165 teachers received training in dyslexia awareness and early identification of it through a project funded jointly by the Scottish Executive and the Scottish Dyslexia Trust. The expansion of pre-school education and early intervention will also help us to identify earlier those children who suffer from dyslexia.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2123E103P242C714531", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27262, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 630.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27263, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 631.0, "QuestionHeading": "Dyslexia", "QuestionHeadingID": 27265, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 665.0, "DisplayOrder": 665.0, "ID": 27265, "ParentID": 27263 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Chisholm, Malcolm", "ID": 2123, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh North and Leith" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Malcolm Chisholm", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 684.0, "ContributionID": 714531, "EditedText": "Will the minister ensure that the education bill includes a presumption that all children with special needs will be taught within mainstream education?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister ensure that the education bill includes a presumption that all children with special needs will be taught within mainstream education?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1863E284P532C714533", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27262, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 630.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27263, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 631.0, "QuestionHeading": "Dyslexia", "QuestionHeadingID": 27265, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 665.0, "DisplayOrder": 665.0, "ID": 27265, "ParentID": 27263 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Cunningham, Roseanna", "ID": 1863, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Perth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Roseanna Cunningham", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Roseanna Cunningham (Perth) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 688.0, "ContributionID": 714533, "EditedText": "On a point of order. I am not entirely sure whether this, strictly speaking, will qualify as a point of order. Interruption. No doubt you will keep me right, Presiding Officer—and the members of the Conservative party ought to just listen because this will affect them as well. At 2.55 pm I received an e-mail about the new year information technology arrangements for the Parliament. I quote: \"The Scottish Parliament network will close for the New Year as from 1700 hours on 30th December and will reopen at 0900 hours on 5 January. This will mean that access is denied to all users, including Dial-In use.\" The e-mail continues:\"During this period, all e-mails received will be held and distributed to their recipients when they logon on 5 January.\" I do not suppose that for a day or two in that period any of us will be looking at our e-mails or trying to work, but—for those of us who rely entirely on the network for their work load—this is a ridiculously intrusive and disruptive length of time to shut the network down. As we are going into recess in a couple of hours, I ask that we make representations—through you, Presiding Officer—that that decision cannot be allowed to stand.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. I am not entirely sure whether this, strictly speaking, will qualify as a point of order. [Interruption.]

No doubt you will keep me right, Presiding Officer—and the members of the Conservative party ought to just listen because this will affect them as well.

At 2.55 pm I received an e-mail about the new year information technology arrangements for the Parliament. I quote:

\"The Scottish Parliament network will close for the New Year as from 1700 hours on 30th December and will reopen at 0900 hours on 5 January. This will mean that access is denied to all users, including Dial-In use.\"

The e-mail continues:

\"During this period, all e-mails received will be held and distributed to their recipients when they logon on 5 January.\"

I do not suppose that for a day or two in that period any of us will be looking at our e-mails or trying to work, but—for those of us who rely entirely on the network for their work load—this is a ridiculously intrusive and disruptive length of time to shut the network down. As we are going into recess in a couple of hours, I ask that we make representations—through you, Presiding Officer—that that decision cannot be allowed to stand.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1863E284P532C714535", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27262, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 630.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27263, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 631.0, "QuestionHeading": "Dyslexia", "QuestionHeadingID": 27265, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 665.0, "DisplayOrder": 665.0, "ID": 27265, "ParentID": 27263 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Cunningham, Roseanna", "ID": 1863, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Perth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Roseanna Cunningham", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Roseanna Cunningham: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 692.0, "ContributionID": 714535, "EditedText": "Further to the point of order.", "EditedTextHTML": "Further to the point of order.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1863E284P532C714537", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27262, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 630.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27263, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 631.0, "QuestionHeading": "Dyslexia", "QuestionHeadingID": 27265, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 665.0, "DisplayOrder": 665.0, "ID": 27265, "ParentID": 27263 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Cunningham, Roseanna", "ID": 1863, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Perth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Roseanna Cunningham", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Roseanna Cunningham: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 696.0, "ContributionID": 714537, "EditedText": "Despite the fact that this is brand new technology, and despite the fact that all our laptops and computers have been dealt with over the past few weeks and months, presumably to make them millennium compliant, are we being told that they are not?", "EditedTextHTML": "Despite the fact that this is brand new technology, and despite the fact that all our laptops and computers have been dealt with over the past few weeks and months, presumably to make them millennium compliant, are we being told that they are not?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1985E207P501C714547", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hamilton, Mr Duncan", "ID": 1985, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Duncan Hamilton (Highlands and Islands) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 718.0, "ContributionID": 714547, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C714548", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 720.0, "ContributionID": 714548, "EditedText": "I am not taking another intervention, and I suggest that the Opposition listens to the point that I am about to make. We will not move forward if the NHS is continually reduced to a cheap political football. The health service exists to improve people's lives, not to enhance politicians' careers. The NHS needs mature debate and sensible solutions, not the kind of soundbites and scaremongering that we hear all too often from the Opposition. There is rarely a day goes by when I do not pick up a newspaper and see an Opposition member crying \"crisis\", \"scandal\" or \"disgrace\" about something in the NHS. That is political opportunism, not effective opposition, and it is not representative of the grown-up politics that the Scottish people were promised. They want politicians who give considered comment, not knee-jerk reactions.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am not taking another intervention, and I suggest that the Opposition listens to the point that I am about to make.

We will not move forward if the NHS is continually reduced to a cheap political football. The health service exists to improve people's lives, not to enhance politicians' careers. The NHS needs mature debate and sensible solutions, not the kind of soundbites and scaremongering that we hear all too often from the Opposition.

There is rarely a day goes by when I do not pick up a newspaper and see an Opposition member crying \"crisis\", \"scandal\" or \"disgrace\" about something in the NHS. That is political opportunism, not effective opposition, and it is not representative of the grown-up politics that the Scottish people were promised. They want politicians who give considered comment, not knee-jerk reactions.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1985E207P501C714549", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hamilton, Mr Duncan", "ID": 1985, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Hamilton: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 722.0, "ContributionID": 714549, "EditedText": "If the minister concentrates on doing her job, we will concentrate on doing ours the way that we want. Her comment that Opposition criticism somehow leads to a crisis in staff morale is nonsense. Has she thought for a second that she might be the reason why 3,000 nurses leave the NHS in Scotland every year?", "EditedTextHTML": "If the minister concentrates on doing her job, we will concentrate on doing ours the way that we want. Her comment that Opposition criticism somehow leads to a crisis in staff morale is nonsense. Has she thought for a second that she might be the reason why 3,000 nurses leave the NHS in Scotland every year?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C714554", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 732.0, "ContributionID": 714554, "EditedText": "I will take one further intervention.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will take one further intervention.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1863E284P532C714559", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Cunningham, Roseanna", "ID": 1863, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Perth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Roseanna Cunningham", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Roseanna Cunningham: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 742.0, "ContributionID": 714559, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way on that point?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way on that point?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C714562", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 748.0, "ContributionID": 714562, "EditedText": "The minister is not giving way.", "EditedTextHTML": "The minister is not giving way.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C714557", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 738.0, "ContributionID": 714557, "EditedText": "Briefly, minister.", "EditedTextHTML": "Briefly, minister.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C714558", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 740.0, "ContributionID": 714558, "EditedText": "As members examine the NHS in their areas and question local health authorities about their plans for change—as I hope that they will—they should demand the right services for people, and not just defend the status quo of bricks and mortar.", "EditedTextHTML": "As members examine the NHS in their areas and question local health authorities about their plans for change—as I hope that they will—they should demand the right services for people, and not just defend the status quo of bricks and mortar.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1811E172P455C714567", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ullrich, Kay", "ID": 1811, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kay Ullrich", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Kay Ullrich: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 759.0, "ContributionID": 714567, "EditedText": "Okay, once again—I am glad that the minister gave me a chance to put it right— reality is being completely ignored in favour of rhetoric. The minister is working on the following principle: when in trouble, create a diversion. We have heard from the minister of the need to transfer services more appropriately from hospitals to primary and community care. However, when that was proposed in \"Designed to Care\", the establishment of a joint investment fund was to be a key plank of that reform. We were told that a substantial proportion of health service funds would be allocated to a JIF. Now, we are advised that a JIF is not a fund for developing the service; it is simply a mechanism for shifting existing resources. To date, not one JIF has been put in place. The key issue is that it is simply not feasible to transfer resources from secondary to primary care when the whole system is under-resourced. The real need is for an additional allocation of funding to the NHS in Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "Okay, once again—I am glad that the minister gave me a chance to put it right— reality is being completely ignored in favour of rhetoric. The minister is working on the following principle: when in trouble, create a diversion.

We have heard from the minister of the need to transfer services more appropriately from hospitals to primary and community care. However, when that was proposed in \"Designed to Care\", the establishment of a joint investment fund was to be a key plank of that reform. We were told that a substantial proportion of health service funds would be allocated to a JIF. Now, we are advised that a JIF is not a fund for developing the service; it is simply a mechanism for shifting existing resources. To date, not one JIF has been put in place. The key issue is that it is simply not feasible to transfer resources from secondary to primary care when the whole system is under-resourced. The real need is for an additional allocation of funding to the NHS in Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1931E120P189C714568", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Muldoon, Bristow", "ID": 1931, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Livingston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bristow Muldoon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bristow Muldoon (Livingston) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 761.0, "ContributionID": 714568, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1811E172P455C714569", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ullrich, Kay", "ID": 1811, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kay Ullrich", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Kay Ullrich: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 763.0, "ContributionID": 714569, "EditedText": "No, not just now.I would like to consider making nominations to health boards, but I admit that I am fairly sceptical about replacing one political appointee with another—albeit that they may be of a different, perhaps better, political hue. Today, we have not heard one word from the minister about the financial crisis that faces cash- strapped health service trusts the length and breadth of Scotland. For example, four health trusts in Glasgow face a shortage of £20 million. Tayside University Hospitals NHS Trust is looking at a shortage of £12 million, while it is estimated that Grampian University Hospitals NHS Trust is more than £3 million in the red. There is a similar picture of ward closures, staffing cuts and cancellation of non-emergency operations in almost every area of Scotland. Perhaps the most alarming revelation came yesterday, in a leaked memo from Raigmore hospital's executive group, which states that \"managers will consult clinical staff on the reduction of elective work load and change case mix in favour of less expensive procedures\". In other words, patients will be chosen for surgery, based not just on their clinical need but on how much their operation costs. How does the minister feel about rationing on the ground of cost? Surely she agrees that to put any hospital clinician in that situation is quite simply reprehensible. We have heard all about new Labour's much proclaimed priorities—rightly so—of cancer and coronary heart disease. Yet there are eminent experts, such as Professor Gordon McVie, director general of the Cancer Research Campaign, and Professor Karol Sikora of the World Health Organisation's cancer programme, who say that people are dying in Scotland because of a lack of necessary resources. Both also say that the NHS in Scotland is unable to provide cancer patients with the most effective, up-to-date treatments in terms of drugs and radiotherapy equipment and that there is a lack of cancer specialists. I know that the minister is aware of the concerns of patients and relatives about the life-threatening delays in treatment experienced at the Beatson oncology centre at the Western infirmary in Glasgow, where waiting times for treatment are four times longer than national guidelines. Such delays can, potentially, amount to death sentences for many patients and I hope that the deputy minister will address that issue when summing up. For the first time, the Secretary of State for Health in Westminster, Alan Milburn, has admitted that the NHS is rationing services. Will the minister inform Parliament whether that is also the case in Scotland? Then perhaps—just perhaps—we could have an open and informed debate on perceived rationing in our health service.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, not just now.

I would like to consider making nominations to health boards, but I admit that I am fairly sceptical about replacing one political appointee with another—albeit that they may be of a different, perhaps better, political hue.

Today, we have not heard one word from the minister about the financial crisis that faces cash- strapped health service trusts the length and breadth of Scotland. For example, four health trusts in Glasgow face a shortage of £20 million. Tayside University Hospitals NHS Trust is looking at a shortage of £12 million, while it is estimated that Grampian University Hospitals NHS Trust is more than £3 million in the red. There is a similar picture of ward closures, staffing cuts and cancellation of non-emergency operations in almost every area of Scotland. Perhaps the most alarming revelation came yesterday, in a leaked memo from Raigmore hospital's executive group, which states that

\"managers will consult clinical staff on the reduction of elective work load and change case mix in favour of less expensive procedures\".

In other words, patients will be chosen for surgery, based not just on their clinical need but on how much their operation costs. How does the minister feel about rationing on the ground of cost? Surely she agrees that to put any hospital clinician in that situation is quite simply reprehensible.

We have heard all about new Labour's much proclaimed priorities—rightly so—of cancer and coronary heart disease. Yet there are eminent experts, such as Professor Gordon McVie, director general of the Cancer Research Campaign, and Professor Karol Sikora of the World Health Organisation's cancer programme, who say that people are dying in Scotland because of a lack of necessary resources. Both also say that the NHS in Scotland is unable to provide cancer patients with the most effective, up-to-date treatments in terms of drugs and radiotherapy equipment and that there is a lack of cancer specialists.

I know that the minister is aware of the concerns of patients and relatives about the life-threatening delays in treatment experienced at the Beatson oncology centre at the Western infirmary in Glasgow, where waiting times for treatment are four times longer than national guidelines. Such delays can, potentially, amount to death sentences for many patients and I hope that the deputy minister will address that issue when summing up.

For the first time, the Secretary of State for Health in Westminster, Alan Milburn, has admitted that the NHS is rationing services. Will the minister inform Parliament whether that is also the case in Scotland? Then perhaps—just perhaps—we could have an open and informed debate on perceived rationing in our health service.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C714570", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Davidson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 765.0, "ContributionID": 714570, "EditedText": "I am not sure whether Kay Ullrich is aware that during the finance debate yesterday, I questioned the Minister for Finance on whether rationing was beginning in the health service in Scotland. He answered, \"Absolutely not.\" Will Kay Ullrich ask the minister whether she knows about that?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am not sure whether Kay Ullrich is aware that during the finance debate yesterday, I questioned the Minister for Finance on whether rationing was beginning in the health service in Scotland. He answered, \"Absolutely not.\" Will Kay Ullrich ask the minister whether she knows about that?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1823E145P193C714572", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jamieson, Margaret", "ID": 1823, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Kilmarnock and Loudoun" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Jamieson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Margaret Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 769.0, "ContributionID": 714572, "EditedText": "Will Kay Ullrich give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Kay Ullrich give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1811E172P455C714574", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ullrich, Kay", "ID": 1811, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kay Ullrich", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Kay Ullrich: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 773.0, "ContributionID": 714574, "EditedText": "I will give way.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will give way.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1828E200P487C714580", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacDonald, Margo", "ID": 1828, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margo MacDonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Margo MacDonald (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 786.0, "ContributionID": 714580, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C714582", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 790.0, "ContributionID": 714582, "EditedText": "If I represented the Labour party, I would sit comfortably in my seat rather than waste my energy jumping up and down. The 25,000 people in Angus and the Mearns did not sign a petition in the Tory years. We never had packed halls in Fife, Perth and all over the country and we did not know about any overspend. Margaret Jamieson should not start lecturing us.", "EditedTextHTML": "If I represented the Labour party, I would sit comfortably in my seat rather than waste my energy jumping up and down. The 25,000 people in Angus and the Mearns did not sign a petition in the Tory years. We never had packed halls in Fife, Perth and all over the country and we did not know about any overspend. Margaret Jamieson should not start lecturing us.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1863E284P532C714583", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Cunningham, Roseanna", "ID": 1863, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Perth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Roseanna Cunningham", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Roseanna Cunningham: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 792.0, "ContributionID": 714583, "EditedText": "Does the member agree that the fact that thousands of people are signing petitions and turning up to public meetings—as they have done in my constituency—suggests that what we hear from the minister about accountability is nonsense and that the closed doors that we are being told used to exist are still as closed?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the member agree that the fact that thousands of people are signing petitions and turning up to public meetings—as they have done in my constituency—suggests that what we hear from the minister about accountability is nonsense and that the closed doors that we are being told used to exist are still as closed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2123E103P242C714585", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Chisholm, Malcolm", "ID": 2123, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh North and Leith" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Malcolm Chisholm", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab) rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 796.0, "ContributionID": 714585, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C714586", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 798.0, "ContributionID": 714586, "EditedText": "In north Glasgow there is an overspend of almost £10 million. am proud to mention Raigmore hospital in Inverness, but not proud of what it is having to do. The hospital's financial recovery plan, which was forced on it by the minister, involves \"the reduction of elective workload and change case mix in favour of less expensive procedures\" and demands that the hospital \"Withdraw Consultant locum cover to Skye\"and\"Limit ‘Dressings' spend to budget\".God help staff if their uniforms are wearing thin, because there will be no further expenditure on that this year. Also, the hospital will \"Introduce differential catering pricing for staff and visitors\"It is becoming a joke.", "EditedTextHTML": "In north Glasgow there is an overspend of almost £10 million. am proud to mention Raigmore hospital in Inverness, but not proud of what it is having to do. The hospital's financial recovery plan, which was forced on it by the minister, involves

\"the reduction of elective workload and change case mix in favour of less expensive procedures\" and demands that the hospital

\"Withdraw Consultant locum cover to Skye\"

and

\"Limit ‘Dressings' spend to budget\".

God help staff if their uniforms are wearing thin, because there will be no further expenditure on that this year. Also, the hospital will

\"Introduce differential catering pricing for staff and visitors\"

It is becoming a joke.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2033E106P139C714587", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gray, Iain", "ID": 2033, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Pentlands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Iain Gray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Community Care (Iain Gray): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 800.0, "ContributionID": 714587, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C714588", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 802.0, "ContributionID": 714588, "EditedText": "No, I will not give way. The deputy minister will have ample opportunity to spin-doctor his ideas, but I have very little opportunity.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I will not give way. The deputy minister will have ample opportunity to spin-doctor his ideas, but I have very little opportunity.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1916E38P70C714594", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Ben", "ID": 1916, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ben Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ben Wallace (North-East Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 815.0, "ContributionID": 714594, "EditedText": "While Mr Brown is listing Liberal Democrat successes, will he tell us how successful his manifesto pledge to abolish the private finance initiative has been? Where are the 500 extra doctors and the 1,000 extra nurses that his party promised to employ? What has become of the manifesto commitments that were simply sold out in favour of Labour health policy?", "EditedTextHTML": "While Mr Brown is listing Liberal Democrat successes, will he tell us how successful his manifesto pledge to abolish the private finance initiative has been? Where are the 500 extra doctors and the 1,000 extra nurses that his party promised to employ? What has become of the manifesto commitments that were simply sold out in favour of Labour health policy?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2185E120P328C714597", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Brown, Robert", "ID": 2185, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robert Brown", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robert Brown: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 821.0, "ContributionID": 714597, "EditedText": "I will not accept an intervention now. I may do so later. The minister made an announcement about the fresh air of accountability.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will not accept an intervention now. I may do so later.

The minister made an announcement about the fresh air of accountability.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2185E120P328C714599", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Brown, Robert", "ID": 2185, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robert Brown", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robert Brown: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 825.0, "ContributionID": 714599, "EditedText": "No. I have already indicated that I am unwilling to accept interventions. Mrs Ullrich was not here earlier to hear other members' speeches, so she should sit down now.", "EditedTextHTML": "No. I have already indicated that I am unwilling to accept interventions. Mrs Ullrich was not here earlier to hear other members' speeches, so she should sit down now.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1811E172P455C714600", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ullrich, Kay", "ID": 1811, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kay Ullrich", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Kay Ullrich: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 827.0, "ContributionID": 714600, "EditedText": "Why will Mr Brown not give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Why will Mr Brown not give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2185E120P328C714602", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Brown, Robert", "ID": 2185, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robert Brown", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robert Brown: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 831.0, "ContributionID": 714602, "EditedText": "The minister's announcement that she wants to blow the fresh air of accountability through the health service quangos is welcome. That action will be enhanced by the forthcoming enactment of the freedom of information bill, which will enable easier access to health records and documents. It is not an easy thing to get right; there is a delicate balance to be struck between democratic accountability, managerial efficiency, the meeting of national targets for a national service, and professional considerations. Although the present structure of health boards and trusts is not the last word on the matter, neither is further tinkering with the deckchairs the first priority for health. I return to the Opposition amendments and tothe speeches from Mrs Ullrich and Mrs Scanlon, who I note has now left the chamber. I was astonished by the gall of the Tory effort and by the phrase in the Tory amendment that reads: \"condemns Labour's centralisation and increase in bureaucracy\". Did I live in an alternative time zone when the Conservative Government introduced the huge bureaucracy of the internal market? Was I imagining that later Administrations had to spend enormous effort to sort out the mess that the Tories left and to reclaim many millions of pounds for front-line health services? Conservative members who talk about public accountability are the ones who introduced what must surely have been the most unaccountable structure in the whole history of the NHS. They are the very people who introduced competition and divisiveness into the heart of the health service. Their amendment, to which they have not properly spoken, calls for waiting times to be the top priority for the NHS. Waiting times are undoubtedly important, but it is quite out of tune to consider it a top priority against the overriding importance of targeting health improvement and health promotion—another theme that is strongly targeted by my party and which is at the heart of the Scottish Executive's programme.", "EditedTextHTML": "The minister's announcement that she wants to blow the fresh air of accountability through the health service quangos is welcome. That action will be enhanced by the forthcoming enactment of the freedom of information bill, which will enable easier access to health records and documents. It is not an easy thing to get right; there is a delicate balance to be struck between democratic accountability, managerial efficiency, the meeting of national targets for a national service, and professional considerations. Although the present structure of health boards and trusts is not the last word on the matter, neither is further tinkering with the deckchairs the first priority for health.

I return to the Opposition amendments and to

the speeches from Mrs Ullrich and Mrs Scanlon, who I note has now left the chamber. I was astonished by the gall of the Tory effort and by the phrase in the Tory amendment that reads:

\"condemns Labour's centralisation and increase in bureaucracy\".

Did I live in an alternative time zone when the Conservative Government introduced the huge bureaucracy of the internal market? Was I imagining that later Administrations had to spend enormous effort to sort out the mess that the Tories left and to reclaim many millions of pounds for front-line health services?

Conservative members who talk about public accountability are the ones who introduced what must surely have been the most unaccountable structure in the whole history of the NHS. They are the very people who introduced competition and divisiveness into the heart of the health service. Their amendment, to which they have not properly spoken, calls for waiting times to be the top priority for the NHS. Waiting times are undoubtedly important, but it is quite out of tune to consider it a top priority against the overriding importance of targeting health improvement and health promotion—another theme that is strongly targeted by my party and which is at the heart of the Scottish Executive's programme.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2185E120P328C714604", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Brown, Robert", "ID": 2185, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robert Brown", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robert Brown: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 835.0, "ContributionID": 714604, "EditedText": "I shall touch on that point towards the end of my speech. I shall turn now to the nationalists. Here goes Mrs Ullrich again, whinging—in the motion, I might add, not in her speech—about the lower rise in health spending in Scotland compared with England. It is manifestly clear, however, that—", "EditedTextHTML": "I shall touch on that point towards the end of my speech. I shall turn now to the nationalists. Here goes Mrs Ullrich again, whinging—in the motion, I might add, not in her speech—about the lower rise in health spending in Scotland compared with England. It is manifestly clear, however, that—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5606768+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C714612", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Brian Monteith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 852.0, "ContributionID": 714612, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C714614", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Monteith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 856.0, "ContributionID": 714614, "EditedText": "Gladly.", "EditedTextHTML": "Gladly.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C714615", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Simpson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 858.0, "ContributionID": 714615, "EditedText": "The amendments that have been lodged—Kay did not fully speak to hers—are nonsense. Instead of raising health issues, or proposing changes, Kay's amendment talks about the relationship to spending in England. The Conservatives' amendment talks about bureaucracy. As Robert Brown said, that is not worth responding to, after what the Conservatives did to the health service.", "EditedTextHTML": "The amendments that have been lodged—Kay did not fully speak to hers—are nonsense. Instead of raising health issues, or proposing changes, Kay's amendment talks about the relationship to spending in England. The Conservatives' amendment talks about bureaucracy. As Robert Brown said, that is not worth responding to, after what the Conservatives did to the health service.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1811E172P455C714618", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ullrich, Kay", "ID": 1811, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kay Ullrich", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Kay Ullrich: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 864.0, "ContributionID": 714618, "EditedText": "Will Dr Simpson give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Dr Simpson give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C714619", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Simpson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 866.0, "ContributionID": 714619, "EditedText": "Not at the moment, I will take an intervention later. Not only that, but we are continuing to spend more. We spend considerably more than the SNP or the Tories indicated in their plans. Yesterday, Andrew Wilson raised the question of what would happen to the Barnett formula. I will try to answer that point. If we can improve the health of the people of Scotland, the justified excess and advantage in funding that we now have should be redistributed in terms of health inequalities elsewhere in the United Kingdom. We are a partnership within the United Kingdom.", "EditedTextHTML": "Not at the moment, I will take an intervention later.

Not only that, but we are continuing to spend more. We spend considerably more than the SNP or the Tories indicated in their plans.

Yesterday, Andrew Wilson raised the question of what would happen to the Barnett formula. I will try to answer that point. If we can improve the health of the people of Scotland, the justified excess and advantage in funding that we now have should be redistributed in terms of health inequalities elsewhere in the United Kingdom. We are a partnership within the United Kingdom.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C714621", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Simpson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 870.0, "ContributionID": 714621, "EditedText": "Absolutely not. At the present time, we need that spending, because we have some of the worst health records and as long as that pertains we will be able to justify that from the UK exchequer in the block grant.", "EditedTextHTML": "Absolutely not. At the present time, we need that spending, because we have some of the worst health records and as long as that pertains we will be able to justify that from the UK exchequer in the block grant.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C714624", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Simpson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 876.0, "ContributionID": 714624, "EditedText": "I do not accept those figures. The increase in expenditure is considerably more than that. Over the next three years, the planned increase is in the region of 12 per cent cumulatively. I do not accept Mr Hamilton's figures. Let us look at the issues that the SNP are deleting from our motion, for example \"public accountability\". I accept that public accountability is nothing like as good as it should be but at least this Administration is attempting to make some changes. When I was practising medicine, the public were not genuinely involved in the proceedings on a pre-consultative basis. They were told of the decisions that were to be issued and asked, \"What do you think of that?\" The situation now is that, with difficulty, trusts and boards are making genuine attempts to involve the public. Like Roseanna Cunningham, I attended the meeting in Perth when 1,200 people attended a consultation on the acute services review when Tayside Health Board had not reached decisions. If that is not involving the public, I do not know what is. I have to say that her inflammatory intervention at that meeting was self-serving, irresponsible and made improvements in the service for her constituents less likely rather than more likely.", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not accept those figures. The increase in expenditure is considerably more than that. Over the next three years, the planned increase is in the region of 12 per cent cumulatively. I do not accept Mr Hamilton's figures.

Let us look at the issues that the SNP are deleting from our motion, for example \"public accountability\". I accept that public accountability is nothing like as good as it should be but at least this Administration is attempting to make some changes.

When I was practising medicine, the public were not genuinely involved in the proceedings on a pre-consultative basis. They were told of the decisions that were to be issued and asked, \"What do you think of that?\" The situation now is that, with difficulty, trusts and boards are making genuine attempts to involve the public.

Like Roseanna Cunningham, I attended the meeting in Perth when 1,200 people attended a consultation on the acute services review when Tayside Health Board had not reached decisions. If that is not involving the public, I do not know what is. I have to say that her inflammatory intervention at that meeting was self-serving,

irresponsible and made improvements in the service for her constituents less likely rather than more likely.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C714632", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Simpson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 892.0, "ContributionID": 714632, "EditedText": "Patients should be empowered by good quality information and advocacy. Accountability, public involvement and partnership in a modern service are what we should all be promoting in this Parliament—not the whingeing nonsense from the Opposition.", "EditedTextHTML": "Patients should be empowered by good quality information and advocacy. Accountability, public involvement and partnership in a modern service are what we should all be promoting in this Parliament—not the whingeing nonsense from the Opposition.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1752E75P296C714638", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jamieson, Cathy", "ID": 1752, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Cathy Jamieson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Cathy Jamieson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 907.0, "ContributionID": 714638, "EditedText": "My constituents are very well aware of that. They are also very well aware of the damage that was done to their health during the many long years of the Tory Government, particularly during the miners' strike, when many of them ended up out of work.", "EditedTextHTML": "My constituents are very well aware of that. They are also very well aware of the damage that was done to their health during the many long years of the Tory Government, particularly during the miners' strike, when many of them ended up out of work.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1828E200P487C714642", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacDonald, Margo", "ID": 1828, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margo MacDonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms MacDonald: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 916.0, "ContributionID": 714642, "EditedText": "Bristow must excuse me. I am speaking for all of us, as I know that he is as worried about this as I am. We will lose more than 22 per cent of the spend in terms of people with learning disabilities in Lothian. Those are the community-based services that the Executive is trying to introduce. There is no investment in introducing the new plan. I have no quarrel with the plan itself, but if the Executive is going to invest properly, it should invest in development. I have not heard any recognition of the need for that investment in what has been said today.", "EditedTextHTML": "Bristow must excuse me. I am speaking for all of us, as I know that he is as worried about this as I am.

We will lose more than 22 per cent of the spend in terms of people with learning disabilities in Lothian. Those are the community-based services that the Executive is trying to introduce. There is no investment in introducing the new plan. I have no quarrel with the plan itself, but if the Executive is going to invest properly, it should invest in development. I have not heard any recognition of the need for that investment in what has been said today.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C714648", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 929.0, "ContributionID": 714648, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C714650", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 933.0, "ContributionID": 714650, "EditedText": "That concludes the open debate. I call Margaret Smith to wind up on behalf of the Liberal Democrats. You have four minutes, Mrs Smith.", "EditedTextHTML": "That concludes the open debate. I call Margaret Smith to wind up on behalf of the Liberal Democrats. You have four minutes, Mrs Smith.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1826E199P351C714651", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Smith, Margaret", "ID": 1826, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Smith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Margaret Smith (Edinburgh West) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 936.0, "ContributionID": 714651, "EditedText": "How do I sum up this debate in four minutes? Any members with spare time on a Wednesday morning might like to come to the Health and Community Care Committee; it is always interesting and certainly full of passion. This has been a full-steam debate. By debating the health service in our final full debate of the millennium, and by the way in which members have attacked the issues, we have shown people across Scotland that that we care passionately about the health service. We care passionately about the staff who work in the service—160,000 people. On behalf of the members of the Health and Community Care Committee, I must say that it has been a privilege to meet many of those people over the last few months. I hope that they have a good and peaceful millennium and continue to do the good, hard work that they carry out on our behalf. Without those people there would be no health service about which we could debate. The Executive has set itself the task of turning the Scottish health service into the most modern in Europe. Let us have a reality check. We can do only so much. There is a bottomless pit in terms of people's expectations of the NHS; there is not a bottomless pit in terms of money, even if Gordon Brown were to open his war chest and give more to Scotland for its public services. If he did, I would say \"Thank you very much\" and take as much as I could. There is not a bottomless war chest. Every member could stand up and say that they want money spent on certain areas, but we must do the best we can with the available resources, at the same time as wresting as many resources for Scottish health care as we can. We need those resources. No one in the Executive or the Parliament should be smug and complacent, sitting back and saying, \"We're doing a jolly good job. Everything is perfect\". We need the debate on rationing that Kay Ullrich called for. Let us get real. People know what is happening in our health service and we must start talking about it. At all times, we must remember that we should be putting the patient first. Cathy Jamieson is right. Putting patients first means redesigning services in a way that takes into account what patients want. Mary Scanlon is absolutely right. We heard about Stracathro hospital—25,000 signatures on a petition. That is why the Health and Community Care Committee asked to speak to hospital representatives; that is why we listened to what they had to say. Margaret Jamieson is absolutely right. If the Health and Community Care Committee can do anything to bring about a more open and accountable health service by affecting the way in which trusts and boards and other people go about their business, that is exactly what we should be doing.", "EditedTextHTML": "How do I sum up this debate in four minutes? Any members with spare time on a Wednesday morning might like to come to the Health and Community Care Committee; it is always interesting and certainly full of passion. This has been a full-steam debate. By debating the health service in our final full debate of the millennium, and by the way in which members have attacked

the issues, we have shown people across Scotland that that we care passionately about the health service.

We care passionately about the staff who work in the service—160,000 people. On behalf of the members of the Health and Community Care Committee, I must say that it has been a privilege to meet many of those people over the last few months. I hope that they have a good and peaceful millennium and continue to do the good, hard work that they carry out on our behalf. Without those people there would be no health service about which we could debate.

The Executive has set itself the task of turning the Scottish health service into the most modern in Europe. Let us have a reality check. We can do only so much. There is a bottomless pit in terms of people's expectations of the NHS; there is not a bottomless pit in terms of money, even if Gordon Brown were to open his war chest and give more to Scotland for its public services. If he did, I would say \"Thank you very much\" and take as much as I could. There is not a bottomless war chest. Every member could stand up and say that they want money spent on certain areas, but we must do the best we can with the available resources, at the same time as wresting as many resources for Scottish health care as we can. We need those resources.

No one in the Executive or the Parliament should be smug and complacent, sitting back and saying, \"We're doing a jolly good job. Everything is perfect\". We need the debate on rationing that Kay Ullrich called for. Let us get real. People know what is happening in our health service and we must start talking about it. At all times, we must remember that we should be putting the patient first. Cathy Jamieson is right. Putting patients first means redesigning services in a way that takes into account what patients want.

Mary Scanlon is absolutely right. We heard about Stracathro hospital—25,000 signatures on a petition. That is why the Health and Community Care Committee asked to speak to hospital representatives; that is why we listened to what they had to say.

Margaret Jamieson is absolutely right. If the Health and Community Care Committee can do anything to bring about a more open and accountable health service by affecting the way in which trusts and boards and other people go about their business, that is exactly what we should be doing.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1826E199P351C714653", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Smith, Margaret", "ID": 1826, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Smith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Smith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 940.0, "ContributionID": 714653, "EditedText": "I believe that we have the makings of a minister who will listen, and we need that. We need a minister and an Executive that will listen to what people want. At the end of the day, it is the minister who makes the final decisions. However, the views of the people who use the health service should be taken into account at all times. That is what the health service is there for. I have to disagree with my colleague Robert Brown on one point. When he talked about our debt to health service staff, he said that he would not like to have a job where he held somebody's life in his hands. Well, I have news for him—he does. All of us do. Through pinpointing problems of rationing, financing of acute hospitals and so on, this chamber has rightly flagged up some of the difficulties in the health service. But for goodness' sake, as our national health service staff go into a new millennium, let us pat them on the back and say that there is a heck of a lot of good work going on in that health service. The Health and Community Care Committee will continue to work with people, whether it be with the minister or with health service professionals, to ensure that that good work continues.", "EditedTextHTML": "I believe that we have the makings of a minister who will listen, and we need that. We need a minister and an Executive that will listen to what people want. At the end of the day, it is the minister who makes the final decisions. However, the views of the people who use the health service should be taken into account at all times. That is what the health service is there for.

I have to disagree with my colleague Robert Brown on one point. When he talked about our debt to health service staff, he said that he would not like to have a job where he held somebody's life in his hands. Well, I have news for him—he does. All of us do. Through pinpointing problems of rationing, financing of acute hospitals and so on, this chamber has rightly flagged up some of the difficulties in the health service. But for goodness' sake, as our national health service staff go into a new millennium, let us pat them on the back and say that there is a heck of a lot of good work going on in that health service. The Health and Community Care Committee will continue to work with people, whether it be with the minister or with health service professionals, to ensure that that good work continues.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C714662", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 960.0, "ContributionID": 714662, "EditedText": "That is what you just said.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is what you just said.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1985E207P501C714657", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hamilton, Mr Duncan", "ID": 1985, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Duncan Hamilton (Highlands and Islands) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 950.0, "ContributionID": 714657, "EditedText": "In trying to summarise what has been a fractured—and sometimes fractious—debate, I will concentrate on three things. First, I will consider the attitude towards the issue of not only the Executive and the Parliament, but the wider community. Secondly, I will examine the financial aspects because it is important to nail down those facts. Finally—and crucially—I will tell the chamber why all of that matters. After Susan Deacon's performance today, it is perhaps laughable that a headline in The Herald reads, \"End knee-jerk reactions on health, urges Deacon\". I do not know what her speech was if it was not knee-jerk and reactionary. The minister told us that the Opposition parties must stop scaremongering and damaging staff morale. Does the minister really think that that is a fair comment? Do you really think that the 3,000 nurses who leave the NHS in Scotland have nothing to do with your responsibilities as a minister and everything to do with Opposition parties—which, apparently, have nothing positive to contribute? Is that your analysis of what the Health and Community Care Committee has told you during meetings, of what it said in its report and of the positions of the parties in the chamber? Frankly, if that is true, relations between the minister, the committee and the Parliament are reaching breakdown point. Throughout her speech, the minister told us very patronisingly that it is time for everyone to grow up and to take a new consensual attitude to the issue. Such an approach should start with you and your team. Members in the chamber do not want antagonistic relationships, nor do they want people in the gallery to watch what was, at one point, no more than a catfight. We all want to move forward, but you will have to take the responsibility to meet us halfway. Susan Deacon indicated disagreement.", "EditedTextHTML": "In trying to summarise what has been a fractured—and sometimes fractious—debate, I will concentrate on three things. First, I will consider the attitude towards the issue of not only the Executive and the Parliament, but the wider community. Secondly, I will examine the financial aspects because it is important to nail down those facts. Finally—and crucially—I will tell the chamber why all of that matters. After Susan Deacon's performance today, it is perhaps laughable that a headline in The Herald reads, \"End knee-jerk reactions on health, urges Deacon\". I do not know what her speech was if it was not knee-jerk and reactionary.

The minister told us that the Opposition parties must stop scaremongering and damaging staff morale. Does the minister really think that that is a fair comment? Do you really think that the 3,000 nurses who leave the NHS in Scotland have nothing to do with your responsibilities as a minister and everything to do with Opposition parties—which, apparently, have nothing positive to contribute? Is that your analysis of what the Health and Community Care Committee has told you during meetings, of what it said in its report and of the positions of the parties in the chamber? Frankly, if that is true, relations between the minister, the committee and the Parliament are reaching breakdown point.

Throughout her speech, the minister told us very patronisingly that it is time for everyone to grow up and to take a new consensual attitude to the issue.

Such an approach should start with you and your team. Members in the chamber do not want antagonistic relationships, nor do they want people in the gallery to watch what was, at one point, no more than a catfight. We all want to move forward, but you will have to take the responsibility to meet us halfway.

Susan Deacon indicated disagreement.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C714659", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 954.0, "ContributionID": 714659, "EditedText": "Before the minister responds, Mr Hamilton should remember that all remarks have to be addressed through the chair, not directly.", "EditedTextHTML": "Before the minister responds, Mr Hamilton should remember that all remarks have to be addressed through the chair, not directly.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1985E207P501C714665", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hamilton, Mr Duncan", "ID": 1985, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Hamilton: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 966.0, "ContributionID": 714665, "EditedText": "I apologise.The matter will rumble on, but I suggest that until you accept your part in the blame, the relationship is going nowhere. MEMBERS: \"Through the chair.\" I beg your pardon. I will address my remarks through the chair. You also talk about the need to move away from soundbite politics.", "EditedTextHTML": "I apologise.

The matter will rumble on, but I suggest that until you accept your part in the blame, the relationship is going nowhere. [MEMBERS: \"Through the chair.\"] I beg your pardon. I will address my remarks through the chair.

You also talk about the need to move away from soundbite politics.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1985E207P501C714667", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hamilton, Mr Duncan", "ID": 1985, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Hamilton: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 970.0, "ContributionID": 714667, "EditedText": "I am sorry.Ms Deacon goes on about the need to get away from soundbite politics. She talks about the need for mature debate and sensible solutions, not soundbites and scaremongering. That in itself is a soundbite, which suggests to me that the language needs to be changed. If the minister wants to have a more constructive debate, we can do it that way. In this morning's press, the minister referred to the sterile exchange over finance. That is important. The Barnett squeeze, which is mentioned in our amendment, is at the core of the debate. Despite what some members have said, the fact is that spending on health care in Scotland in the next financial year will rise by less than 1 per cent, compared with 4.4 per cent south of the border.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry.

Ms Deacon goes on about the need to get away from soundbite politics. She talks about the need for mature debate and sensible solutions, not soundbites and scaremongering. That in itself is a soundbite, which suggests to me that the language needs to be changed. If the minister wants to have a more constructive debate, we can do it that way.

In this morning's press, the minister referred to the sterile exchange over finance. That is important. The Barnett squeeze, which is mentioned in our amendment, is at the core of the debate. Despite what some members have said, the fact is that spending on health care in Scotland in the next financial year will rise by less than 1 per cent, compared with 4.4 per cent south of the border.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2123E103P242C714668", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Chisholm, Malcolm", "ID": 2123, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh North and Leith" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Malcolm Chisholm", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Malcolm Chisholm: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 972.0, "ContributionID": 714668, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2033E106P139C714670", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gray, Iain", "ID": 2033, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Pentlands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Iain Gray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Community Care (Iain Gray): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 977.0, "ContributionID": 714670, "EditedText": "How long do I have, Presiding Officer?", "EditedTextHTML": "How long do I have, Presiding Officer?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C714671", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 979.0, "ContributionID": 714671, "EditedText": "You have 10 minutes.", "EditedTextHTML": "You have 10 minutes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2033E106P139C714674", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gray, Iain", "ID": 2033, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Pentlands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Iain Gray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Iain Gray: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 985.0, "ContributionID": 714674, "EditedText": "If it is short, Tommy.", "EditedTextHTML": "If it is short, Tommy.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C714677", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 991.0, "ContributionID": 714677, "EditedText": "Will the deputy minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the deputy minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1926E190P479C714679", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Adam, Brian", "ID": 1926, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Adam", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Brian Adam: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 995.0, "ContributionID": 714679, "EditedText": "Will the deputy minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the deputy minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2033E106P139C714680", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gray, Iain", "ID": 2033, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Pentlands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Iain Gray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Iain Gray: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 997.0, "ContributionID": 714680, "EditedText": "No, there is not enough time.The Administration's initiatives are about Scotland and about people. NHS Direct will provide people with advice 24 hours a day. Redesigned health care will slash the time that people wait for operations such as those for cataracts. One-stop clinics will give people immediate diagnosis without the agonies of waiting; walk-in-walk-out hospitals will provide care where and when people require it, and there will be an appointments system that lets people know when they will see a consultant. Today, maximum waiting time targets were announced to ensure national standards for those waiting for treatment. The Administration's initiatives—real initiatives— are about the technologies and developments of the future. They include a £17 million meningitis programme. The Scottish health technology advisory centre will assess properly new drugs and new procedures. The clinical standards board will ensure the standards of the future, not the past. The biggest hospital building programme that our health service has seen will provide facilities in which the health care of the future might be delivered, instead of old buildings that build us into the health care of the past. The Administration's initiatives are about Scotland and are accountable to Scotland. An interesting point about what that means was raised by Duncan Hamilton. What a pity that it came so late in the debate. What a pity none of his colleagues chose to address such issues. Susan Deacon addressed those issues, however. She announced a drive to maximise grass-roots representation on NHS trust boards, in which every one of us was challenged to take part and which we were all challenged to promote. What a pity that Kay Ullrich interpreted that challenge as an invitation to put SNP placemen on health trusts. Are the SNP's roots in communities so weak that the only people it knows and can promote are its own party members? That is the all-encompassing challenge for us today. I say to Mr Hamilton that that is what is meant by meeting us halfway and by addressing the debate. Are we big enough and grown-up enough to show the leadership and vision that will take our NHS into the next century? Susan Deacon spoke of the giants Beveridge and Bevan. We cannot hide behind them—rather, we must stand on their shoulders better to see the way. Bevan said: \"This service must always be changing, growing and improving\". He also said:\"This is the answer I make to some of the Jeremiahs and defeatists\". We cannot allow this Parliament to be a platform for Jeremiahs and defeatists. Because the NHS must change, we must show political leadership by letting go of old, well-loved but outdated buildings, to build the new NHS. When Mary Scanlon spoke, I was put in mind of something else that Bevan said: \"Warm gushes of self-indulgent emotion are an unreliable source of driving power in the field of health organisation.\"", "EditedTextHTML": "No, there is not enough time.

The Administration's initiatives are about Scotland and about people. NHS Direct will provide people with advice 24 hours a day. Redesigned health care will slash the time that people wait for operations such as those for cataracts. One-stop clinics will give people immediate diagnosis without the agonies of waiting; walk-in-walk-out hospitals will provide

care where and when people require it, and there will be an appointments system that lets people know when they will see a consultant. Today, maximum waiting time targets were announced to ensure national standards for those waiting for treatment.

The Administration's initiatives—real initiatives— are about the technologies and developments of the future. They include a £17 million meningitis programme. The Scottish health technology advisory centre will assess properly new drugs and new procedures. The clinical standards board will ensure the standards of the future, not the past.

The biggest hospital building programme that our health service has seen will provide facilities in which the health care of the future might be delivered, instead of old buildings that build us into the health care of the past.

The Administration's initiatives are about Scotland and are accountable to Scotland. An interesting point about what that means was raised by Duncan Hamilton. What a pity that it came so late in the debate. What a pity none of his colleagues chose to address such issues.

Susan Deacon addressed those issues, however. She announced a drive to maximise grass-roots representation on NHS trust boards, in which every one of us was challenged to take part and which we were all challenged to promote. What a pity that Kay Ullrich interpreted that challenge as an invitation to put SNP placemen on health trusts. Are the SNP's roots in communities so weak that the only people it knows and can promote are its own party members?

That is the all-encompassing challenge for us today. I say to Mr Hamilton that that is what is meant by meeting us halfway and by addressing the debate. Are we big enough and grown-up enough to show the leadership and vision that will take our NHS into the next century?

Susan Deacon spoke of the giants Beveridge and Bevan. We cannot hide behind them—rather, we must stand on their shoulders better to see the way. Bevan said:

\"This service must always be changing, growing and improving\".

He also said:

\"This is the answer I make to some of the Jeremiahs and defeatists\".

We cannot allow this Parliament to be a platform for Jeremiahs and defeatists. Because the NHS must change, we must show political leadership by letting go of old, well-loved but outdated buildings, to build the new NHS.

When Mary Scanlon spoke, I was put in mind of something else that Bevan said:

\"Warm gushes of self-indulgent emotion are an unreliable source of driving power in the field of health organisation.\"

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2033E106P139C714685", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gray, Iain", "ID": 2033, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Pentlands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Iain Gray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Iain Gray: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1007.0, "ContributionID": 714685, "EditedText": "We have a health service that is driven forward by staff who will be working day and night while we are on holiday. We should acknowledge that.", "EditedTextHTML": "We have a health service that is driven forward by staff who will be working day and night while we are on holiday. We should acknowledge that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2029E47P167C714686", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Health Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27266, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 700.0, "ID": 27266, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Henry, Hugh", "ID": 2029, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Hugh Henry", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Hugh Henry (Paisley South) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1009.0, "ContributionID": 714686, "EditedText": "On a point of order. Some of us would quite like to hear what the minister is saying—Interruption.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. Some of us would quite like to hear what the minister is saying—[Interruption.]

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" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C714700", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27267, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1017.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1017.0, "ID": 27267, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1032.0, "ContributionID": 714700, "EditedText": "We are doing well.The next question is, that motion S1M-383.1, in the name of Kay Ullrich, which seeks to amend motion S1M-383 in the name of Susan Deacon, on health, be agreed to. Are we agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "We are doing well.

The next question is, that motion S1M-383.1, in the name of Kay Ullrich, which seeks to amend motion S1M-383 in the name of Susan Deacon, on health, be agreed to. Are we agreed?

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Scotland) (SNP)Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)AGAINST Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Johnston, Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)(LD)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)

AGAINST

Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Johnston, Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)
(LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)

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" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "C714707", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27267, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1017.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1017.0, "ID": 27267, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1044.0, "ContributionID": 714707, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C714708", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27267, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1017.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1017.0, "ID": 27267, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1046.0, "ContributionID": 714708, "EditedText": "There will be a division.", "EditedTextHTML": "There will be a division.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C714721", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Cornton Vale Prison", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27268, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1067.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1067.0, "ID": 27268, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1068.0, "ContributionID": 714721, "EditedText": "The final item of business today is a members' business debate on motion S1M-297, on Cornton Vale prison, in the name of Dr Sylvia Jackson. I ask members who want to speak in this debate to press their buttons, so that we can compile the list. Those members who are leaving should do so quietly.", "EditedTextHTML": "The final item of business today is a members' business debate on motion S1M-297, on Cornton Vale prison, in the name of Dr Sylvia Jackson. I ask members who want to speak in this debate to press their buttons, so that we can compile the list. Those members who are leaving should do so quietly.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C714725", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Cornton Vale Prison", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27268, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1067.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1067.0, "ID": 27268, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1075.0, "ContributionID": 714725, "EditedText": "Five members have indicated a wish to speak. All will be called if each speech can be kept under four minutes.", "EditedTextHTML": "Five members have indicated a wish to speak. All will be called if each speech can be kept under four minutes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C714738", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Cornton Vale Prison", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27268, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1067.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1067.0, "ID": 27268, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Angus MacKay: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1107.0, "ContributionID": 714738, "EditedText": "I am very grateful to Margaret Ewing for making me aware of that fact. There is a real question about whether it is appropriate, in specific circumstances, to incarcerate young and vulnerable women. The governor of Cornton Vale has pursued that issue recently. If prison is not the right answer, I am also forced to wonder about the concept of the halfway house and whether it will serve us better in the longer term. I can see, at face value, the immediate attraction of the halfway house approach and I can certainly understand the desire not to sever the links between women offenders and their children. However, halfway houses appear, to me, to be another—albeit lesser—form of custody. I am seriously concerned about the impact that that could continue to have, in particular on children. I suggest that the real solution to the problem lies in accepting that the personal and social circumstances of many women mean that they simply should not end up in prison at all.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am very grateful to Margaret Ewing for making me aware of that fact.

There is a real question about whether it is appropriate, in specific circumstances, to incarcerate young and vulnerable women. The governor of Cornton Vale has pursued that issue recently.

If prison is not the right answer, I am also forced to wonder about the concept of the halfway house and whether it will serve us better in the longer term. I can see, at face value, the immediate attraction of the halfway house approach and I can certainly understand the desire not to sever the links between women offenders and their children. However, halfway houses appear, to me, to be another—albeit lesser—form of custody. I am seriously concerned about the impact that that could continue to have, in particular on children.

I suggest that the real solution to the problem lies in accepting that the personal and social circumstances of many women mean that they simply should not end up in prison at all.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C714726", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Cornton Vale Prison", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27268, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1067.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1067.0, "ID": 27268, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Richard Simpson (Ochil) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1078.0, "ContributionID": 714726, "EditedText": "I have had personal experience of the situation in Cornton Vale prison, as I was a deputy medical officer there from the time when it opened in 1976 until quite recently. Indeed, my practice resigned from providing general medical services on a regular basis one week before the first suicide. That suicide followed a period of seven or eight years in which the whole character of the prison changed. In 1987, 10 women with drug problems were admitted to the prison. By 1994, the number had risen to 600, although the number of annual admissions, at around 2,000, had not substantially changed. The degree of recidivism—repeated minor offences—among that population is very substantial. Prisoners are admitted for very short sentences, often for failing to pay fines, which may have remained unpaid for a long time. It is possible for the professionals and officers in the prison to establish a reasonable treatment programme for those who are serving longer sentences. However, there is a problem even with those longer-term prisoners in that their discharge is not always well supported. It would be helpful to have some way of releasing prisoners on licence into a more caring environment. Sylvia Jackson has made a strong point about people going into custody. It is totally abhorrent that we still admit so many women and that we split up so many families, which causes so much devastation to the next generation. This chamber should do something about the situation. I state my intention to make it my business, along with Keith Raffan and the others on the all-party group, to ensure that measures are introduced to divert people from prison. During the visit the other day of the all-party group to Brenda House, which is the unit run by the Aberlour Child Care Trust in Edinburgh, I was appalled to find that only two of the six places there were occupied because funds were not being made available. Members of all parties were shocked to find that the very limited resources that we have in the community are not being fully utilised. There are 112 agencies dealing with drug problems in the community. I believe that it will take all of the minister's energy to co-ordinate those agencies with the Scottish Prison Service to ensure that we bring about a substantial change early in the new millennium.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have had personal experience of the situation in Cornton Vale prison, as I was a deputy medical officer there from the time when it opened in 1976 until quite recently. Indeed, my practice resigned from providing general medical services on a regular basis one week before the first suicide.

That suicide followed a period of seven or eight years in which the whole character of the prison changed. In 1987, 10 women with drug problems were admitted to the prison. By 1994, the number had risen to 600, although the number of annual admissions, at around 2,000, had not substantially changed. The degree of recidivism—repeated minor offences—among that population is very substantial. Prisoners are admitted for very short sentences, often for failing to pay fines, which may have remained unpaid for a long time.

It is possible for the professionals and officers in the prison to establish a reasonable treatment programme for those who are serving longer sentences. However, there is a problem even with those longer-term prisoners in that their discharge is not always well supported. It would be helpful to have some way of releasing prisoners on licence into a more caring environment.

Sylvia Jackson has made a strong point about people going into custody. It is totally abhorrent that we still admit so many women and that we split up so many families, which causes so much devastation to the next generation. This chamber should do something about the situation. I state my intention to make it my business, along with Keith Raffan and the others on the all-party group, to ensure that measures are introduced to divert people from prison.

During the visit the other day of the all-party group to Brenda House, which is the unit run by the Aberlour Child Care Trust in Edinburgh, I was appalled to find that only two of the six places there were occupied because funds were not being made available. Members of all parties were shocked to find that the very limited resources that we have in the community are not being fully utilised.

There are 112 agencies dealing with drug problems in the community. I believe that it will take all of the minister's energy to co-ordinate those agencies with the Scottish Prison Service to ensure that we bring about a substantial change early in the new millennium.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C714729", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Cornton Vale Prison", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27268, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1067.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1067.0, "ID": 27268, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1086.0, "ContributionID": 714729, "EditedText": "Mr Raffan, anything over four minutes and I will use the master switch to send you into limbo.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Raffan, anything over four minutes and I will use the master switch to send you into limbo.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C714730", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Cornton Vale Prison", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27268, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1067.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1067.0, "ID": 27268, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Keith Raffan (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1089.0, "ContributionID": 714730, "EditedText": "Okay, I get the message.I congratulate Sylvia Jackson on obtaining this debate, and thank her for inviting me to accompany her on her visit to Cornton Vale last Friday. It was an interesting visit, with an impressive governor. I am sure the Deputy Minister for Justice is aware of the attributes of Mrs Kate Donegan. She is a valuable person to the Scottish Prison Service. Only 3 per cent of the Scottish prison population are women. Many are persistent petty offenders from the lower end of the socio-economic scale and commit minor offences, and most have complex personal problems. They cope badly with being locked up. Clive Fairweather, Her Majesty's chief inspector of prisons for Scotland, is on record as saying: \"I sometimes wonder why they are there.\"Dr Nancy Loukes's research on Cornton Vale, referred to by Dr Jackson, showed that 88 per cent of inmates admitted to using drugs illicitly, 70 per cent were habitual users, 61 per cent were heroin users and 45 per cent had drink problems. An average week's admission last month was 22 people. Of them, 46 per cent admitted to injecting heroin, 23 per cent to smoking it and 80 per cent had had hepatitis C. The medical officer on duty there said to Dr Jackson and me: \"Stop sending us drug addicts.\"It is not just the criminal justice system that is failing those women—society is. Frankly, that is Dickensian, and it is unacceptable in a modern, Scotland that is about to move into the 21st century. We need a joined-up criminal justice system. The minister will know about the turnaround project, Scotland's first diversion from prosecution scheme for women drug users. If they meet the referral criteria they are accepted on a 12-week programme of prescribed medication and intensive one-to-one group work. If they complete that successfully, they are not prosecuted. Those who work for the turnaround project are veterans of the drugs field, but this is what they said: \"Despite our combined experience in the drugs and alcohol field, we had never come across such intense levels of personal distress and constant crisis.\" We must develop and extend that pilot scheme through the use of halfway houses instead of prison, and their use before and after prison. They could be run by prison staff, and provide counselling, group therapy and peer support. One- to-one counselling and group therapy, followed by after-care, should be available to those who are sent to prison. The governor of Saughton prison is concerned about prisons being seen as institutions in and of themselves, with no through-care afterwards. I pay tribute to the excellent work of Simpson House, which should be extended. I hope that the minister will visit it if he has not done so already. I would be grateful if, in his summing up, he would say what our equivalent will be to CARAT— counselling, assessment, referral, advice and through-care—which started in English prisons on 3 October. Many in the Prison Service expected the £13 million underspend in Scottish prisons to be allocated to drug rehabilitation and treatment, but that does not appear to be happening. We must have halfway houses and after-care as a way for people to get back to normal living in the community, and to ensure that they do not relapse. Sylvia also mentioned a one-stop shop to provide integrated through-care. Many of the women are not articulate. They cannot speak up for themselves, and they get put off by having to go to housing departments, and going for benefits, jobs and training. We need a one-stop shop to help and support those women, so that they have a chance of getting back to living in the kind of world in which the rest of us live. They will not have that opportunity if they do not have that support. Dr Simpson mentioned fragmentation, health boards, agencies and so on. What I have suggested is not just the right thing to do; it is the humane thing to do. It is also the cost-effective thing to do. It costs £37,000 per year to keep a woman in prison, and £27,000 to keep a man. We must return women to society in full mental and physical health, and as contributors to the economy, not a drain on it. Finally, if we are about anything in this place— anything at all—we are about helping those in desperate need; the deprived, the forgotten, the ignored, the vulnerable and, yes, the ostracised. We are, and must always be, their voice.", "EditedTextHTML": "

Okay, I get the message.

I congratulate Sylvia Jackson on obtaining this debate, and thank her for inviting me to accompany her on her visit to Cornton Vale last Friday. It was an interesting visit, with an impressive governor. I am sure the Deputy Minister for Justice is aware of the attributes of Mrs Kate Donegan. She is a valuable person to the Scottish Prison Service.

Only 3 per cent of the Scottish prison population are women. Many are persistent petty offenders from the lower end of the socio-economic scale and commit minor offences, and most have complex personal problems. They cope badly with being locked up. Clive Fairweather, Her Majesty's chief inspector of prisons for Scotland, is on record as saying:

\"I sometimes wonder why they are there.\"

Dr Nancy Loukes's research on Cornton Vale, referred to by Dr Jackson, showed that 88 per cent of inmates admitted to using drugs illicitly, 70 per cent were habitual users, 61 per cent were heroin users and 45 per cent had drink problems. An average week's admission last month was 22 people. Of them, 46 per cent admitted to injecting heroin, 23 per cent to smoking it and 80 per cent had had hepatitis C. The medical officer on duty there said to Dr Jackson and me:

\"Stop sending us drug addicts.\"

It is not just the criminal justice system that is failing those women—society is. Frankly, that is Dickensian, and it is unacceptable in a modern, Scotland that is about to move into the 21st century. We need a joined-up criminal justice system. The minister will know about the turnaround project, Scotland's first diversion from prosecution scheme for women drug users. If they meet the referral criteria they are accepted on a 12-week programme of prescribed medication and intensive one-to-one group work. If they complete that successfully, they are not prosecuted. Those who work for the turnaround project are veterans of the drugs field, but this is what they said:

\"Despite our combined experience in the drugs and alcohol field, we had never come across such intense levels of personal distress and constant crisis.\"

We must develop and extend that pilot scheme through the use of halfway houses instead of prison, and their use before and after prison. They could be run by prison staff, and provide counselling, group therapy and peer support. One- to-one counselling and group therapy, followed by after-care, should be available to those who are sent to prison. The governor of Saughton prison is concerned about prisons being seen as institutions in and of themselves, with no through-care afterwards.

I pay tribute to the excellent work of Simpson House, which should be extended. I hope that the

minister will visit it if he has not done so already. I would be grateful if, in his summing up, he would say what our equivalent will be to CARAT— counselling, assessment, referral, advice and through-care—which started in English prisons on 3 October. Many in the Prison Service expected the £13 million underspend in Scottish prisons to be allocated to drug rehabilitation and treatment, but that does not appear to be happening. We must have halfway houses and after-care as a way for people to get back to normal living in the community, and to ensure that they do not relapse.

Sylvia also mentioned a one-stop shop to provide integrated through-care. Many of the women are not articulate. They cannot speak up for themselves, and they get put off by having to go to housing departments, and going for benefits, jobs and training. We need a one-stop shop to help and support those women, so that they have a chance of getting back to living in the kind of world in which the rest of us live. They will not have that opportunity if they do not have that support.

Dr Simpson mentioned fragmentation, health boards, agencies and so on. What I have suggested is not just the right thing to do; it is the humane thing to do. It is also the cost-effective thing to do. It costs £37,000 per year to keep a woman in prison, and £27,000 to keep a man. We must return women to society in full mental and physical health, and as contributors to the economy, not a drain on it.

Finally, if we are about anything in this place— anything at all—we are about helping those in desperate need; the deprived, the forgotten, the ignored, the vulnerable and, yes, the ostracised. We are, and must always be, their voice.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C714739", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Cornton Vale Prison", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27268, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1067.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1067.0, "ID": 27268, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1109.0, "ContributionID": 714739, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C714734", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Cornton Vale Prison", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27268, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1067.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1067.0, "ID": 27268, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Angus MacKay: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1099.0, "ContributionID": 714734, "EditedText": "I thank the member for that contribution. In the remainder of my speech, I will make a number of comments that I hope will help to address that point. When we consider the number of suicides among women prisoners relative to the number of women in prison, the fact of those suicides becomes even more unacceptable. The link with drugs, which has also been mentioned tonight, is clearly relevant. The human tragedy that hides behind the statistics we are discussing is the stark fact that we are dealing with a group of particularly vulnerable people, who are at greater risk of self- destructive behaviour while they are in custody. That makes our debate all the more pointed. While we must recognise that final decisions on penalties have to rest with the courts, I am forced to ask whether prison can be the right solution for many of those young and vulnerable women.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the member for that contribution. In the remainder of my speech, I will make a number of comments that I hope will help to address that point.

When we consider the number of suicides among women prisoners relative to the number of women in prison, the fact of those suicides becomes even more unacceptable. The link with drugs, which has also been mentioned tonight, is clearly relevant. The human tragedy that hides behind the statistics we are discussing is the stark fact that we are dealing with a group of particularly vulnerable people, who are at greater risk of self- destructive behaviour while they are in custody. That makes our debate all the more pointed.

While we must recognise that final decisions on penalties have to rest with the courts, I am forced to ask whether prison can be the right solution for many of those young and vulnerable women.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5763053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C714747", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Cornton Vale Prison", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27268, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1067.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1067.0, "ID": 27268, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1125.0, "ContributionID": 714747, "EditedText": "Under a minute, I am afraid.", "EditedTextHTML": "Under a minute, I am afraid.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5919292+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C714748", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Cornton Vale Prison", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27268, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1067.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1067.0, "ID": 27268, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Angus MacKay: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1127.0, "ContributionID": 714748, "EditedText": "I will cut short my speech.As members will know, the inter-agency forum has looked at the problems in Glasgow and, within the past month, has submitted its first report. It sees the way forward as the provision of more projects that pursue the diversion agenda in its broadest sense. The forum is looking for the provision of a safe, community-based service for women that is not run by the Prison Service. I believe that that is the correct approach. The Executive is following it through by negotiating with Glasgow City Council the early establishment of a diversion scheme as a matter of priority. We hope that the scheme will be up and running by April. On 24 January, I will visit Cornton Vale to assess the situation for myself. I suggest that the only relatively sure method of dealing with the problems associated with women in prisons is to make a significant reduction in the number of women going to prison or undergoing any kind of prison service. That should be the core policy objective.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will cut short my speech.

As members will know, the inter-agency forum has looked at the problems in Glasgow and, within the past month, has submitted its first report. It sees the way forward as the provision of more projects that pursue the diversion agenda in its broadest sense. The forum is looking for the provision of a safe, community-based service for women that is not run by the Prison Service. I believe that that is the correct approach. The Executive is following it through by negotiating with Glasgow City Council the early establishment of a diversion scheme as a matter of priority. We hope that the scheme will be up and running by April.

On 24 January, I will visit Cornton Vale to assess the situation for myself. I suggest that the only relatively sure method of dealing with the problems associated with women in prisons is to make a significant reduction in the number of women going to prison or undergoing any kind of prison service. That should be the core policy objective.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5919292+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2180E179P471C714520", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27262, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 630.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27263, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 631.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27264, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 632.0, "DisplayOrder": 632.0, "ID": 27264, "ParentID": 27263 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lochhead, Richard", "ID": 2180, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Lochhead", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Richard Lochhead (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 661.0, "ContributionID": 714520, "EditedText": "When the First Minister next meets John Reid, will he persuade Mr Reid that he is the Secretary of State for Scotland, as opposed to the secretary of state against Scotland? He can show us that he is the Secretary of State for Scotland by implementing the recommendations in the recent report by the Rural Affairs Committee. That report calls for the restoration of 6,000 square miles of our seas to Scottish jurisdiction. Will the First Minister use this opportunity to tell Parliament whether he supports the recommendations and will he be doing his utmost to urge the Secretary of State for Scotland to ensure that we get our waters back?", "EditedTextHTML": "When the First Minister next meets John Reid, will he persuade Mr Reid that he is the Secretary of State for Scotland, as opposed to the secretary of state against Scotland? He can show us that he is the Secretary of State for Scotland by implementing the recommendations in the recent report by the Rural Affairs Committee. That report calls for the restoration of 6,000 square miles of our seas to Scottish jurisdiction. Will the First Minister use this opportunity to tell Parliament whether he supports the recommendations and will he be doing his utmost to urge the Secretary of State for Scotland to ensure that we get our waters back?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:01:04.7890265+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2180E179P471C714274", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Motion without notice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27237, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 27237, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lochhead, Richard", "ID": 2180, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Lochhead", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Richard Lochhead: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 136.0, "ContributionID": 714274, "EditedText": "Does the member agree that Mike Rumbles should withdraw his attack on the Rural Affairs Committee, given that he was not at the meeting at which it was decided to publish the report?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the member agree that Mike Rumbles should withdraw his attack on the Rural Affairs Committee, given that he was not at the meeting at which it was decided to publish the report?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:55.944805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2133E222P520C714324", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Matheson, Michael", "ID": 2133, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Matheson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Matheson (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 244.0, "ContributionID": 714324, "EditedText": "It would be easy for the debate to become bogged down in the issue of whether the Parliament has the power to change the Act of Settlement, or whether the act is a burning issue among Catholics in Scotland. However, by seeking to have the debate, we seek to address the fundamental issue of discrimination. I cannot agree with Michael McMahon that this is an irrelevancy to many Catholics. Many Catholics may be ambivalent about it, but that does not mean that they think that things should not change. We can always be selective in our use of quotations. Both he and Elaine Smith quoted Monsignor Tom Connelly, but the monsignor also stated, in the Daily Mail of 15 November, that he was very pleased that Scotland was taking the lead in this matter. The monsignor is not here to defend himself or to settle our differences, but we should bear in mind the fact that we can be selective in trying to give a set impression. This debate allows us to deal with a fundamental issue of discrimination; it enables us to state clearly that discrimination is unacceptable and will not be tolerated in a modern Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "It would be easy for the debate to become bogged down in the issue of whether the Parliament has the power to change the Act of Settlement, or whether the act is a burning issue among Catholics in Scotland. However, by seeking to have the debate, we seek to address the fundamental issue of discrimination.

I cannot agree with Michael McMahon that this is an irrelevancy to many Catholics. Many Catholics may be ambivalent about it, but that does not mean that they think that things should not change. We can always be selective in our use of quotations. Both he and Elaine Smith quoted Monsignor Tom Connelly, but the monsignor also stated, in the Daily Mail of 15 November, that he was very pleased that Scotland was taking the lead in this matter. The monsignor is not here to defend himself or to settle our differences, but we should bear in mind the fact that we can be selective in trying to give a set impression.

This debate allows us to deal with a fundamental issue of discrimination; it enables us to state clearly that discrimination is unacceptable and will not be tolerated in a modern Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:55.944805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2133E222P520C714326", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Matheson, Michael", "ID": 2133, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Matheson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Matheson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 248.0, "ContributionID": 714326, "EditedText": "This is not about whether the act impinges on people directly or indirectly; it is about a fundamental principle of standing up against discrimination. I was brought up with the same views as Elaine Smith has described. I understood that, because of my religion, I could not be king or queen of this country—Laughter.— not that I wanted to be. It is important to recognise that this debate is not about defending the Catholic Church; it is about standing up against discrimination on the ground of religion. I am conscious that, given my religion and my enthusiasm for the act to be repealed, some could say that I had a registrable interest. I may be a Catholic, but at this stage I have no plans to marry a member of the royal family, although one never knows what is waiting round the corner. There is no reason why I or other Catholics should accept the Act of Settlement, regardless of whether it affects us indirectly or directly. Many have said that this Parliament does not have the competence to amend the act. However, the Parliament was established to protect the principles of fairness and equality in a modern Scottish society. That process was set in motion by the consultative steering group. We acted on its recommendations by establishing a mandatory committee on equal opportunities. The Equal Opportunities Committee is responsible not just for highlighting unfairness in our society, but for tackling the fundamental problems that lie behind that unfairness. By having this debate, we are standing up for those principles and confronting the discrimination that lies at the heart of the Act of Settlement. No community or individual should be treated as a second-class citizen by virtue of religion, race or other standing in society. The Act of Settlement serves as nothing other than a form of institutional bigotry. I sincerely hope that Westminster will take the views of this Parliament seriously and will see this debate as a catalyst for a change that should take place. Westminster must set that process in motion. Cardinal Winning called the Act of Settlement a blot on our justice and integrity. Justice and integrity are two of the founding principles of this Parliament—the words are engraved in the head of the mace. By having this debate, and by collectively showing that every member of this Parliament is united against the provisions in the Act of Settlement against Catholics, we are standing up for the principles of integrity and justice. That is exactly what we were elected to this Parliament to do.", "EditedTextHTML": "This is not about whether the act impinges on people directly or indirectly; it is about a fundamental principle of standing up against discrimination. I was brought up with the same views as Elaine Smith has described. I understood that, because of my religion, I could not be king or queen of this country—[Laughter.]— not that I wanted to be.

It is important to recognise that this debate is not about defending the Catholic Church; it is about standing up against discrimination on the ground of religion. I am conscious that, given my religion and my enthusiasm for the act to be repealed, some could say that I had a registrable interest. I may be a Catholic, but at this stage I have no plans to marry a member of the royal family, although one never knows what is waiting round the corner. There is no reason why I or other Catholics should accept the Act of Settlement, regardless of whether it affects us indirectly or directly.

Many have said that this Parliament does not have the competence to amend the act. However, the Parliament was established to protect the principles of fairness and equality in a modern Scottish society. That process was set in motion by the consultative steering group. We acted on its recommendations by establishing a mandatory committee on equal opportunities. The Equal Opportunities Committee is responsible not just for highlighting unfairness in our society, but for tackling the fundamental problems that lie behind that unfairness. By having this debate, we are standing up for those principles and confronting the discrimination that lies at the heart of the Act of Settlement.

No community or individual should be treated as a second-class citizen by virtue of religion, race or other standing in society. The Act of Settlement serves as nothing other than a form of institutional bigotry. I sincerely hope that Westminster will take the views of this Parliament seriously and will see this debate as a catalyst for a change that should take place. Westminster must set that process in motion.

Cardinal Winning called the Act of Settlement a blot on our justice and integrity. Justice and integrity are two of the founding principles of this Parliament—the words are engraved in the head of the mace. By having this debate, and by collectively showing that every member of this Parliament is united against the provisions in the Act of Settlement against Catholics, we are standing up for the principles of integrity and justice. That is exactly what we were elected to this Parliament to do.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:55.944805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1870E181P475C714363", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robison, Shona", "ID": 1870, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Shona Robison", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Shona Robison (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 331.0, "ContributionID": 714363, "EditedText": "Overall, the tone of today's debate has been good, although it was unfortunate that some Labour members decided to take the line of political cynicism or to argue that there were other priorities. I hope that they will reflect on that. In particular, the comments of Mary Mulligan and Hugh Henry were a disgrace to the Labour benches. People in glass houses should never throw stones. We all have our past embarrassments to deal with. I remind Mary and Hugh about the atrocious anti-Catholic comments made by Sam Campbell, the former Labour provost of Midlothian, who remains a serving Labour councillor.", "EditedTextHTML": "Overall, the tone of today's debate has been good, although it was unfortunate that some Labour

members decided to take the line of political cynicism or to argue that there were other priorities. I hope that they will reflect on that. In particular, the comments of Mary Mulligan and Hugh Henry were a disgrace to the Labour benches. People in glass houses should never throw stones. We all have our past embarrassments to deal with. I remind Mary and Hugh about the atrocious anti-Catholic comments made by Sam Campbell, the former Labour provost of Midlothian, who remains a serving Labour councillor.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:01:17.5713192+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C714493", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27242, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 478.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27243, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 479.0, "QuestionHeading": "Road Accidents", "QuestionHeadingID": 27258, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 596.0, "DisplayOrder": 596.0, "ID": 27258, "ParentID": 27243 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 601.0, "ContributionID": 714493, "EditedText": "The priority that I suggest is to go ahead with our pilots on home zones so that we can examine opportunities to create safe areas around schools and in residential districts. I encourage local authorities fully to take up the opportunity to reduce speeds to 20 mph in areas where they think that there are good road safety arguments to do so. I also encourage them to take up the guidance on safer routes to schools that I published last week, which talks about giving pupils choices on safe routes to schools with which parents can be happy and which can help to reduce congestion on the roads. A range of mechanisms are available and it is critical that they are employed in the context of the local transport strategy of each local authority.", "EditedTextHTML": "The priority that I suggest is to go ahead with our pilots on home zones so that we can examine opportunities to create safe areas around schools and in residential districts. I encourage local authorities fully to take up the opportunity to reduce speeds to 20 mph in areas where they think that there are good road safety arguments to do so.

I also encourage them to take up the guidance on safer routes to schools that I published last week, which talks about giving pupils choices on safe routes to schools with which parents can be happy and which can help to reduce congestion on the roads. A range of mechanisms are available and it is critical that they are employed in the context of the local transport strategy of each local authority.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:18.1559401+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1773E197P503C714463", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27242, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 478.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27243, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 479.0, "QuestionHeading": "Poverty", "QuestionHeadingID": 27250, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 530.0, "DisplayOrder": 530.0, "ID": 27250, "ParentID": 27243 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hyslop, Fiona", "ID": 1773, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona Hyslop", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona Hyslop: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 533.0, "ContributionID": 714463, "EditedText": "That is interesting. Not only do we get 20-year promises, we get 20-year answers. I want to ask about the past two years. There have been five major surveys in recent weeks showing a north-south divide and an east-west divide. Will the minister address the situation in Glasgow, where the take-up of free school meals has increased in the past two years from 37 per cent to 43 per cent, and where the real level of unemployment as measured by labour force statistics has gone up from 27 per cent to 31 per cent? Does the minister agree that poverty among plenty is being perpetuated by the Labour Government and its Lib-Lab coalition? Does she agree that 20-year promises mean nothing when you have no job, no home and, for a record number of people, no hope?", "EditedTextHTML": "That is interesting. Not only do we get 20-year promises, we get 20-year answers.

I want to ask about the past two years. There have been five major surveys in recent weeks showing a north-south divide and an east-west divide. Will the minister address the situation in Glasgow, where the take-up of free school meals has increased in the past two years from 37 per cent to 43 per cent, and where the real level of unemployment as measured by labour force statistics has gone up from 27 per cent to 31 per cent? Does the minister agree that poverty among plenty is being perpetuated by the Labour Government and its Lib-Lab coalition? Does she agree that 20-year promises mean nothing when you have no job, no home and, for a record number of people, no hope?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:01:48.3030692+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C714389", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Hampden Park", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27239, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 385.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 385.0, "ID": 27239, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 391.0, "ContributionID": 714389, "EditedText": "Does the minister think that it has been acceptable for the Executive to proceed in this matter by way of continual briefings to the press, while refusing—as his deputy minister did on 9 November—to give even the most basic details to the relevant parliamentary committee? Secondly, I turn the minister's attention to his responsibility for public money and put on record the Scottish National party's support for the national stadium. For that reason, we welcome this belated statement. Can he say why public money was committed at the outset to a project that did not have a fixed price—unlike the Millennium Stadium project in Cardiff—and did not even cover basic items such as inflation and the relaying of the pitch? Can he say why he is now prepared to commit even more public money which, whether it comes out of the education budget or end-year flexibilities, is still money that can now not be committed to education? Why is that money being committed without any real guarantees that it will not follow the last lot into the same black hole? Is the minister seriously suggesting that by handing over the management of the national stadium to the Scottish Football Association, the public will be confident that the financial chaos of the past will not recur in the future?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the minister think that it has been acceptable for the Executive to proceed in this matter by way of continual briefings to the press, while refusing—as his deputy minister did on 9 November—to give even the most basic details to the relevant parliamentary committee?

Secondly, I turn the minister's attention to his responsibility for public money and put on record the Scottish National party's support for the national stadium. For that reason, we welcome this belated statement. Can he say why public money was committed at the outset to a project that did not have a fixed price—unlike the Millennium Stadium project in Cardiff—and did not even cover basic items such as inflation and the relaying of the pitch? Can he say why he is now prepared to commit even more public money which, whether it comes out of the education budget or end-year flexibilities, is still money that can now not be committed to education? Why is that money being committed without any real guarantees that it will not follow the last lot into the same black hole?

Is the minister seriously suggesting that by handing over the management of the national stadium to the Scottish Football Association, the public will be confident that the financial chaos of the past will not recur in the future?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:01:10.1212253+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C714255", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Motion without notice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27237, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 27237, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon (Glasgow) (SNP) rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 98.0, "ContributionID": 714255, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:00:59.8834011+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1783E59P270C714382", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Baillie, Jackie", "ID": 1783, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumbarton" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Jackie Baillie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Communities (Jackie Baillie): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 374.0, "ContributionID": 714382, "EditedText": "This issue is clearly one on which many members of this Parliament and many people in Scotland have strongly held views. However, I am disappointed that, having predicated his comments on the clear desire for the need for reconciliation and unity of purpose, Mike Russell turned on both Michael McMahon and Frank McAveety. That set the tone for the rest of the debate. Having said that, I agree with Alex Neil. He is right to say that we must raise the sights of this Parliament. I am grateful to Lord James for what was probably the most interesting history lesson that I have ever received. However, I rush to reject any notion that duelling is an appropriate way to settle issues in the 21st century. Duelling is a male preserve and, despite my commitment to equal opportunities, I am therefore excused from participation. There can be no doubt that, historically, there has been religious discrimination in this country. Sectarianism is a scar on the soul of Scotland, and it certainly has no place in the Scotland of tomorrow. Our aim and ambition is to end all forms of discrimination: religious discrimination, racial discrimination, sexual discrimination and discrimination on the grounds of disability or sexual orientation. Achieving that is not simply about changing one act that is almost 300 years old. Michael Matheson said earlier that he never dreamed about being the king, or indeed the queen. I certainly never dreamed about being the king. I am sure that royal marriage proposals are winging their way to Michael as we speak, but how will he feel about the horses and corgis that come with them? The discrimination inherent in the Act of Settlement is truly offensive to many people in Scotland. The fact that it has little practical significance does not negate its symbolic significance. Tommy Sheridan is right to say that the passing of the amended motion will have symbolic significance. However, it is not just a matter of priorities; it is also about competence. Let us get beyond symbolism and talk about areas in which the Scottish Parliament has the influence, the opportunity and the responsibility to get it right. Shona Robison was right to say that we do not have legislative responsibility for any aspect of equality. However, we have a clear role in promoting equality, and key to that is our responsibility to tackle discrimination—through education, health, employment and dealing with poverty. Those are areas for which we have responsibility. Our programme for government set out our pledge to the people of Scotland: our pledge to work together to build a modern, prosperous and socially just Scotland. To make a real difference in people's lives, we must tackle the discrimination caused by poverty. I do not need to remind people that deprivation affects life chances. The fact that child poverty increased dramatically between 1979 and 1996 is a damning indictment of the previous Government. Two in five children in this country are born poor, one in six families are pushed into poverty at childbirth. We have a responsibility to improve the life chances of our children, to end child poverty within a generation, and to build a socially just and equal Scotland that is free of discrimination. In working together for a Scotland without discrimination, we must search for agreement on the most effective way forward. We should not seek confrontation, which will merely make worse the problems that we are trying to solve.", "EditedTextHTML": "This issue is clearly one on which many members of this Parliament and many people in Scotland have strongly held views. However, I am disappointed that, having predicated his comments on the clear desire for the need for reconciliation and unity of purpose, Mike Russell turned on both Michael McMahon and Frank McAveety. That set the tone for the rest of the debate.

Having said that, I agree with Alex Neil. He is right to say that we must raise the sights of this Parliament. I am grateful to Lord James for what was probably the most interesting history lesson that I have ever received. However, I rush to reject any notion that duelling is an appropriate way to settle issues in the 21st century. Duelling is a male preserve and, despite my commitment to equal opportunities, I am therefore excused from participation.

There can be no doubt that, historically, there has been religious discrimination in this country. Sectarianism is a scar on the soul of Scotland, and it certainly has no place in the Scotland of tomorrow. Our aim and ambition is to end all forms of discrimination: religious discrimination, racial discrimination, sexual discrimination and discrimination on the grounds of disability or sexual orientation. Achieving that is not simply about changing one act that is almost 300 years old.

Michael Matheson said earlier that he never dreamed about being the king, or indeed the queen. I certainly never dreamed about being the king. I am sure that royal marriage proposals are winging their way to Michael as we speak, but how will he feel about the horses and corgis that come with them?

The discrimination inherent in the Act of Settlement is truly offensive to many people in Scotland. The fact that it has little practical significance does not negate its symbolic significance. Tommy Sheridan is right to say that the passing of the amended motion will have symbolic significance. However, it is not just a matter of priorities; it is also about competence.

Let us get beyond symbolism and talk about areas in which the Scottish Parliament has the influence, the opportunity and the responsibility to get it right. Shona Robison was right to say that we do not have legislative responsibility for any aspect of equality. However, we have a clear role in promoting equality, and key to that is our responsibility to tackle discrimination—through education, health, employment and dealing with poverty. Those are areas for which we have responsibility.

Our programme for government set out our pledge to the people of Scotland: our pledge to work together to build a modern, prosperous and socially just Scotland. To make a real difference in people's lives, we must tackle the discrimination caused by poverty. I do not need to remind people that deprivation affects life chances. The fact that child poverty increased dramatically between 1979 and 1996 is a damning indictment of the previous Government. Two in five children in this country are born poor, one in six families are pushed into poverty at childbirth. We have a responsibility to improve the life chances of our children, to end child poverty within a generation, and to build a socially just and equal Scotland that is free of discrimination.

In working together for a Scotland without discrimination, we must search for agreement on the most effective way forward. We should not seek confrontation, which will merely make worse the problems that we are trying to solve.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:31:43.4808602+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1783E59P270C714384", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Dec 1999", "ID": 4200 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Act of Settlement", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27238, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 158.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 158.0, "ID": 27238, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Baillie, Jackie", "ID": 1783, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumbarton" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Jackie Baillie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Jackie Baillie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 378.0, "ContributionID": 714384, "EditedText": "I want to make it absolutely clear to Alex Salmond, and indeed to Mike Rumbles, that the Executive amendment is not, and I repeat not, an excuse for inaction. I am sure, as members will be aware, that this debate and motion will be considered carefully by Westminster. However, John McAllion is right: the repeal of the Act of Settlement will not in itself end sectarianism, so let us focus on what we can do at our own hand. I am sure that members will agree that discrimination has no place in a modern society. We all believe that. Annabel Goldie was correct in her analysis of the debate. It follows that we would like to see any act of Parliament that contains religious discrimination repealed. In closing, I will focus on the Executive's amendment and the two key points that it contains. First—and this debate has illustrated the point well—amendment or repeal of the Act of Settlement raises complex constitutional issues. At least eight other pieces of legislation would require amendment or repeal. Similar legislation would need to be passed in at least 15 realms within the Commonwealth. There is no doubt that any process of amendment or repeal would be complex, controversial and demanding on parliamentary time—not our time, but the time of other Parliaments. On that point, Mike Russell is wrong. It is interesting to note that he is now an expert not only on constitutional law, but on international constitutional law. Is there no end to his many talents? Perhaps it signals the expansionist plans of the SNP that it speaks for the Parliaments of Canada, Australia, New Zealand and other Commonwealth countries. I am sure that those Parliaments affirm our commitment to equality, but it is a matter for them, and for the whole Commonwealth, not for Mr Russell. Secondly, the Act of Settlement is a matter reserved to the United Kingdom Parliament. That is a matter of act and law, and is laid out in the Scotland Act 1998. No one can dispute that. I say again that the Executive amendment is not an excuse for inaction. The Executive is intent on ridding Scotland of discrimination in all its forms. We believe that the way forward is by a broadly based programme of social justice that tackles poverty and ends social exclusion and discrimination in effective ways. It is a radical programme but, above all, it is a practical programme that we can deliver, one that will provide real change for the people of Scotland. I urge Parliament to support the motion as amended by the Executive.", "EditedTextHTML": "I want to make it absolutely clear to Alex Salmond, and indeed to Mike Rumbles, that the Executive amendment is not, and I repeat not, an excuse for inaction. I am sure, as members will be aware, that this debate and motion will be considered carefully by Westminster. However, John McAllion is right: the repeal of the Act of Settlement will not in itself end sectarianism, so let us focus on what we can do at our own hand. I am sure that members will agree that discrimination has no place in a modern society. We all believe that. Annabel Goldie was correct in her analysis of the debate. It follows that we would like to see any act of Parliament that contains religious discrimination repealed.

In closing, I will focus on the Executive's amendment and the two key points that it contains.

First—and this debate has illustrated the point well—amendment or repeal of the Act of Settlement raises complex constitutional issues. At least eight other pieces of legislation would require amendment or repeal. Similar legislation would need to be passed in at least 15 realms within the Commonwealth. There is no doubt that any process of amendment or repeal would be complex, controversial and demanding on parliamentary time—not our time, but the time of other Parliaments.

On that point, Mike Russell is wrong. It is interesting to note that he is now an expert not only on constitutional law, but on international constitutional law. Is there no end to his many talents? Perhaps it signals the expansionist plans of the SNP that it speaks for the Parliaments of Canada, Australia, New Zealand and other Commonwealth countries. I am sure that those Parliaments affirm our commitment to equality, but it is a matter for them, and for the whole Commonwealth, not for Mr Russell.

Secondly, the Act of Settlement is a matter reserved to the United Kingdom Parliament. That is a matter of act and law, and is laid out in the Scotland Act 1998. No one can dispute that.

I say again that the Executive amendment is not an excuse for inaction. The Executive is intent on ridding Scotland of discrimination in all its forms. We believe that the way forward is by a broadly based programme of social justice that tackles poverty and ends social exclusion and discrimination in effective ways. It is a radical programme but, above all, it is a practical programme that we can deliver, one that will provide real change for the people of Scotland.

I urge Parliament to support the motion as amended by the Executive.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:31:43.4808602+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C714042", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 397.0, "ContributionID": 714042, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:00:50.3207435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C714206", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fife Rail Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27235, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 705.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 705.0, "ID": 27235, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 745.0, "ContributionID": 714206, "EditedText": "No, I am about to wind up.Helen Eadie has been one of the key people arguing for investment in Fife rail facilities. Improvements have been made in the rail services between south Fife and Edinburgh, such as the construction of Dalgety Bay station and of Queen Margaret station in Dunfermline. We must tell people listening to—or reading— this debate that improvements will be made. From the middle of next year, 300 additional seats will be available on trains in peak hours. That is earlier than the requirements of the franchise demand. However, I know that members who have made speeches today will not be satisfied until their trains are not overcrowded or late. That will be the test of the improvements. Another issue that was raised was access to rail stations—Marilyn Livingstone made that point most effectively. It is important to have good car parking facilities, as well as good bus timetables that link in with train services. The bus service from Inverkeithing to the airport is critical to the future of access to integrated transport. It is also important to have decent places for people to sit at stations, and decent cycle access. The whole quality of the rail experience must be improved. Investment in Fife's rail services since 1997 amounts to £6.5 million, in addition to the support that the Scottish Executive provides through ScotRail. We need to get value for money and ensure that people experience the benefits of that. Everybody else has declared an interest, so I will finish with my declaration of interest. As a representative of Edinburgh Central, I am all too aware of the problems that we experience when people from Fife and other places feel that they are forced into their cars. This is not just a problem for Fife commuters and residents; it is one for the central belt of Scotland as well, and we must tackle it collectively. I thank Tricia Marwick and Helen Eadie for securing this debate. The test will be delivering the services in the coming months.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I am about to wind up.

Helen Eadie has been one of the key people arguing for investment in Fife rail facilities. Improvements have been made in the rail services between south Fife and Edinburgh, such as the construction of Dalgety Bay station and of Queen Margaret station in Dunfermline.

We must tell people listening to—or reading— this debate that improvements will be made. From the middle of next year, 300 additional seats will be available on trains in peak hours. That is earlier than the requirements of the franchise demand. However, I know that members who have made speeches today will not be satisfied until their trains are not overcrowded or late. That will be the test of the improvements.

Another issue that was raised was access to rail stations—Marilyn Livingstone made that point most effectively. It is important to have good car parking facilities, as well as good bus timetables that link in with train services. The bus service from Inverkeithing to the airport is critical to the future of access to integrated transport. It is also important to have decent places for people to sit at stations, and decent cycle access. The whole quality of the rail experience must be improved.

Investment in Fife's rail services since 1997 amounts to £6.5 million, in addition to the support that the Scottish Executive provides through ScotRail. We need to get value for money and ensure that people experience the benefits of that.

Everybody else has declared an interest, so I will finish with my declaration of interest. As a representative of Edinburgh Central, I am all too aware of the problems that we experience when people from Fife and other places feel that they are forced into their cars. This is not just a problem for Fife commuters and residents; it is one for the central belt of Scotland as well, and we must tackle it collectively.

I thank Tricia Marwick and Helen Eadie for securing this debate. The test will be delivering the services in the coming months.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:14.3101891+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1860E111P160C714051", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Infectious Salmon Anaemia", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27229, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 407.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 407.0, "ID": 27229, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Grant, Rhoda", "ID": 1860, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Rhoda Grant", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Rhoda Grant (Highlands and Islands) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 417.0, "ContributionID": 714051, "EditedText": "ISA has imposed a major burden on affected farms. To what extent do today's measures provide relief for an industry that is a major contributor to the rural economy?", "EditedTextHTML": "ISA has imposed a major burden on affected farms. To what extent do today's measures provide relief for an industry that is a major contributor to the rural economy?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:01:23.8313068+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1773E197P503C714114", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27231, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 487.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 487.0, "ID": 27231, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hyslop, Fiona", "ID": 1773, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona Hyslop", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona Hyslop: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 556.0, "ContributionID": 714114, "EditedText": "I have finished my speech.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have finished my speech.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:01:23.8313068+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1773E197P503C714117", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27231, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 487.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 487.0, "ID": 27231, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hyslop, Fiona", "ID": 1773, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona Hyslop", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona Hyslop: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 562.0, "ContributionID": 714117, "EditedText": "Yes.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:01:23.8313068+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2180E179P471C714049", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Infectious Salmon Anaemia", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27229, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 407.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 407.0, "ID": 27229, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lochhead, Richard", "ID": 2180, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Lochhead", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Richard Lochhead (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 413.0, "ContributionID": 714049, "EditedText": "I welcome the minister's statement, although it is long overdue. Why has there been such a lengthy delay in introducing flexibility into the Government's policy, which can only be described as heavy-handed and cack-handed? Why has it taken nearly half a year and the slaughter of millions of healthy fish to bring the minister to his senses and make him realise that his policy is untenable? Why has it taken so long to initiate intensive wild fish surveillance, when the incidence of ISA in wild fish has fundamental ramifications for the Government's policy? Does it remain the Government's policy to slaughter healthy fish, and what assistance will be given to the industry to help it to meet the costs incurred by the Government's policy?", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the minister's statement, although it is long overdue.

Why has there been such a lengthy delay in introducing flexibility into the Government's policy, which can only be described as heavy-handed and cack-handed? Why has it taken nearly half a year and the slaughter of millions of healthy fish to bring the minister to his senses and make him realise that his policy is untenable? Why has it taken so long to initiate intensive wild fish surveillance, when the incidence of ISA in wild fish has fundamental ramifications for the Government's policy? Does it remain the Government's policy to slaughter healthy fish, and what assistance will be given to the industry to help it to meet the costs incurred by the Government's policy?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:44.0221047+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713857", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Wednesday 15 December 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 27226, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 27226, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 2.0, "ContributionID": 713857, "EditedText": "THE PRESIDING OFFICER opened the meeting at 09:30", "EditedTextHTML": "[THE PRESIDING OFFICER opened the meeting at 09:30]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1876E194P490C713860", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Cross-party Groups", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27227, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27227, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Marwick, Tricia", "ID": 1876, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tricia Marwick", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tricia Marwick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 10.0, "ContributionID": 713860, "EditedText": "Cross-party groups provide a framework that allows the participation of civic Scotland in parliamentary matters. They are headed by MSPs and help us to be better informed about the issues that are important to the people of Scotland. It is fair to say that organisations outside the chamber are anticipating this document more eagerly than some of our colleagues. For civic Scotland, cross- party groups represent one of the routes by which access to Parliament can be gained. Many of those groups have emerged and represent issues as diverse as oil and gas and the elderly. Such groups are important to the ethos of the Parliament. In order for them to remain valuable, they must be regulated. Cross-party groups are important to the transparent, open and accessible culture that needs to be fostered in the Parliament. I think it has to do with putting one's money where one's mouth is. The recommendations of the consultative steering group set out that the Parliament should be open, participative and democratic. The group paid particular attention to the role of civic Scotland in terms of the sharing of power. Paragraph 17 of the group's report states: \"Power-sharing is not only about the balance of power between the Scottish Executive and the Scottish Parliament, but also about the empowerment of external groups and individuals in all sectors of Scottish society.\" Cross-party groups as well as committees contribute to the ethos of our Parliament and provide a channel for information, criticism and advice. More important, the groups allow MSPs to explore longer-term policy direction on a cross- party basis and to use the expertise that members of the group can bring. Cross-party groups are also useful in areas where the Scottish Parliament does not, as yet, have legislative competence. That means that there can be debates on issues that are outside the parliamentary remit. That feature of cross- party groups is particularly welcomed by those organisations in civic Scotland whose interests are not devolved matters. In order to remain valuable, however, cross- party groups must be regulated. Mike Rumbles has already outlined the features of such regulation. Everyone must be clear about the purpose of the groups and who is responsible for them. The groups must remain essentially parliamentary in nature. That is why the Standards Committee has insisted that MSPs should take up the senior positions in the groups. The groups have been the subject of much debate in the Standards Committee, and I am pleased that members of the committee from all parties have unanimously agreed the report. The subject of this debate is important, as the Parliament was set up to be inclusive. Cross-party groups are a method of ensuring that the Parliament is so, but they will work only if they are properly administered. Cross-party groups are a framework to encourage participation in Parliament, but they are not the sole method of influencing the Parliament. There is a danger that the existence of the cross- party groups could be used as an excuse to ignore the rest of civic Scotland and the other groups that are involved. Parliament could consult the cross- party group on the elderly and claim that it has consulted widely, as that group could be seen to be representative of all the elderly groups. That cannot be allowed to happen. The cross-party groups should not become exclusive. The Parliament's members should be open to all views, regardless of where they come from. In short, while I appreciate that cross-party groups are an important mechanism of participation, they are only one of many. In order that we get the best out of the cross-party groups, it is important that we have a framework of regulation. The Standards Committee has achieved the right balance in the document. I ask members to give it their support.", "EditedTextHTML": "Cross-party groups provide a framework that allows the participation of civic Scotland in parliamentary matters. They are headed by MSPs and help us to be better informed about the issues that are important to the people of Scotland. It is fair to say that organisations outside the chamber are anticipating this document more eagerly than some of our colleagues. For civic Scotland, cross- party groups represent one of the routes by which access to Parliament can be gained.

Many of those groups have emerged and represent issues as diverse as oil and gas and the elderly. Such groups are important to the ethos of the Parliament. In order for them to remain valuable, they must be regulated. Cross-party groups are important to the transparent, open and accessible culture that needs to be fostered in the Parliament. I think it has to do with putting one's money where one's mouth is.

The recommendations of the consultative steering group set out that the Parliament should be open, participative and democratic. The group paid particular attention to the role of civic Scotland in terms of the sharing of power. Paragraph 17 of the group's report states:

\"Power-sharing is not only about the balance of power between the Scottish Executive and the Scottish Parliament, but also about the empowerment of external groups and individuals in all sectors of Scottish society.\"

Cross-party groups as well as committees contribute to the ethos of our Parliament and provide a channel for information, criticism and advice. More important, the groups allow MSPs to explore longer-term policy direction on a cross- party basis and to use the expertise that members of the group can bring.

Cross-party groups are also useful in areas where the Scottish Parliament does not, as yet, have legislative competence. That means that there can be debates on issues that are outside the parliamentary remit. That feature of cross- party groups is particularly welcomed by those organisations in civic Scotland whose interests are not devolved matters.

In order to remain valuable, however, cross- party groups must be regulated. Mike Rumbles has already outlined the features of such regulation. Everyone must be clear about the purpose of the groups and who is responsible for them. The groups must remain essentially parliamentary in nature. That is why the Standards Committee has insisted that MSPs should take up the senior positions in the groups.

The groups have been the subject of much debate in the Standards Committee, and I am pleased that members of the committee from all parties have unanimously agreed the report. The subject of this debate is important, as the Parliament was set up to be inclusive. Cross-party groups are a method of ensuring that the Parliament is so, but they will work only if they are properly administered.

Cross-party groups are a framework to encourage participation in Parliament, but they are not the sole method of influencing the Parliament. There is a danger that the existence of the cross- party groups could be used as an excuse to ignore the rest of civic Scotland and the other groups that are involved. Parliament could consult the cross- party group on the elderly and claim that it has consulted widely, as that group could be seen to be representative of all the elderly groups. That cannot be allowed to happen. The cross-party groups should not become exclusive. The Parliament's members should be open to all views, regardless of where they come from.

In short, while I appreciate that cross-party groups are an important mechanism of participation, they are only one of many. In order that we get the best out of the cross-party groups, it is important that we have a framework of regulation. The Standards Committee has achieved the right balance in the document. I ask members to give it their support.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2038E191P344C713865", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Cross-party Groups", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27227, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27227, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Smith, Iain", "ID": 2038, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Iain Smith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Parliament (Iain Smith): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 25.0, "ContributionID": 713865, "EditedText": "On behalf of the Executive, I thank Mike Rumbles and the members and staff of the Standards Committee for the work that they have put into preparing the report on the regulation of cross-party groups. At a time when the committee has had other important matters to deal with, including the preparation of a code of conduct, it is good that it has still found time to examine the question of cross-party groups. I am pleased that the Parliament has this opportunity to consider the committee's proposals. The Standards Committee noted that several approaches have already been made, seeking the establishment of cross-party groups. It is important that those groups operate in a transparent manner. It will benefit the Parliament, cross-party groups and the public to have a clear set of rules within which to work. One of the key principles set out by consultative steering group was that \"the Scottish Parliament should be accessible, open, responsive, and develop procedures which make possible a participative approach to the development, consideration and scrutiny of policy and legislation.\" The CSG wanted to ensure a meaningful dialogue between the Parliament and civic society. The establishment of the Scottish civic forum will play an important part in stimulating dialogue between the Parliament, the Executive and civic society, and the Executive has been pleased to offer £300,000 over this year and the next two years to assist it in its work. The Executive is also looking to be more proactive in its approach to consultation on its policies and proposals for legislation. As Tricia Marwick has already said, the framework for the establishment of cross-party groups offers another channel for communication between the Parliament and civic society that can complement the work of the Scottish civic forum and the Executive. In their responses to the CSG's consultation, voluntary organisations and interest groups were keen that they should be able to develop ideas via recognised parliamentary forums. Cross-party groups are one way in which voluntary organisations and minority groups, among others, will be able to consider and debate issues of interest and to develop ideas. It is important to recognise, and I believe that the committee has done so, that groups other than cross-party groups may seek to have significant interaction with the Parliament. We should certainly not be creating mechanisms that hinder individuals or interest groups from interacting with the Parliament. We should also recognise that cross-party groups are different beasts from committees of the Parliament, and we need to ensure that there is no confusion between the two. The Standards Committee's report makes it clear that groups must be \"Parliamentary in character\" and that their purposes must be \"of genuine public interest\". I know that the committee put a lot of thought into determining how to ensure that groups would be parliamentary in character. Association with, and recognition by, the Parliament as a cross-party group is likely to be of considerable value. The views of a cross-party group of the Scottish Parliament are likely to receive more attention than the views of the individual members of that group. As such, the Parliament needs to ensure that it lends its name with care. The committee has not attempted to define clearly what \"Parliamentary in character\" means, and prefers to leave that to develop in practice. I therefore urge the committee to keep a close eye on what is happening so that we avoid any possibility of groups losing their parliamentary character. Rule 2 in the report requires that a group must include at least one member from each of the major parties, but provides for this requirement to be waived by the Standards Committee in particular cases. I understand why the committee wishes to have that flexibility, but hope that every effort will be made by those wishing to establish groups to find willing members in every party. The Standards Committee noted that it may wish to recommend amendments to the procedures set out in its report in the light of experience of the operation of cross-party groups. That is perfectly appropriate. We are still in the early days, and the committee has had to develop procedures without the benefit of any real experience of cross-party groups in the Scottish Parliament. I hope that the committee will keep a close eye on the operation of the system so that cross-party groups enhance the work of the Parliament. I am pleased to support the recommendations of the Standards Committee.", "EditedTextHTML": "On behalf of the Executive, I thank Mike Rumbles and the members and staff of the Standards Committee for the work that they have put into preparing the report on the regulation of cross-party groups. At a time when the committee has had other important matters to deal with, including the preparation of a code of conduct, it is good that it has still found time to examine the question of cross-party groups. I am pleased that the Parliament has this opportunity to consider the committee's proposals.

The Standards Committee noted that several approaches have already been made, seeking the establishment of cross-party groups. It is important that those groups operate in a transparent manner. It will benefit the Parliament, cross-party groups and the public to have a clear set of rules within which to work.

One of the key principles set out by consultative steering group was that

\"the Scottish Parliament should be accessible, open, responsive, and develop procedures which make possible a participative approach to the development, consideration and scrutiny of policy and legislation.\"

The CSG wanted to ensure a meaningful dialogue between the Parliament and civic society. The establishment of the Scottish civic forum will play an important part in stimulating dialogue between the Parliament, the Executive and civic society, and the Executive has been pleased to offer £300,000 over this year and the next two years to assist it in its work.

The Executive is also looking to be more proactive in its approach to consultation on its policies and proposals for legislation. As Tricia Marwick has already said, the framework for the establishment of cross-party groups offers another channel for communication between the Parliament and civic society that can complement the work of the Scottish civic forum and the Executive.

In their responses to the CSG's consultation, voluntary organisations and interest groups were keen that they should be able to develop ideas via recognised parliamentary forums. Cross-party groups are one way in which voluntary organisations and minority groups, among others, will be able to consider and debate issues of interest and to develop ideas.

It is important to recognise, and I believe that the committee has done so, that groups other than cross-party groups may seek to have significant interaction with the Parliament. We should certainly not be creating mechanisms that hinder individuals or interest groups from interacting with the Parliament. We should also recognise that cross-party groups are different beasts from committees of the Parliament, and we need to ensure that there is no confusion between the two.

The Standards Committee's report makes it clear that groups must be \"Parliamentary in character\" and that their purposes must be \"of genuine public interest\". I know that the committee put a lot of thought into determining how to ensure that groups would be parliamentary in character.

Association with, and recognition by, the Parliament as a cross-party group is likely to be of considerable value. The views of a cross-party group of the Scottish Parliament are likely to receive more attention than the views of the individual members of that group. As such, the Parliament needs to ensure that it lends its name with care. The committee has not attempted to define clearly what \"Parliamentary in character\" means, and prefers to leave that to develop in practice. I therefore urge the committee to keep a close eye on what is happening so that we avoid any possibility of groups losing their parliamentary character.

Rule 2 in the report requires that a group must include at least one member from each of the major parties, but provides for this requirement to be waived by the Standards Committee in particular cases. I understand why the committee wishes to have that flexibility, but hope that every effort will be made by those wishing to establish groups to find willing members in every party.

The Standards Committee noted that it may wish to recommend amendments to the procedures set out in its report in the light of experience of the operation of cross-party groups. That is perfectly appropriate. We are still in the early days, and the committee has had to develop procedures without the benefit of any real experience of cross-party groups in the Scottish Parliament. I hope that the committee will keep a close eye on the operation of the system so that cross-party groups enhance the work of the Parliament.

I am pleased to support the recommendations of the Standards Committee.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713866", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Cross-party Groups", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27227, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27227, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 27.0, "ContributionID": 713866, "EditedText": "I call Des McNulty to wind up on behalf of the Standards Committee. You have until 10 o'clock.", "EditedTextHTML": "I call Des McNulty to wind up on behalf of the Standards Committee. You have until 10 o'clock.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1970E66P288C713867", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Cross-party Groups", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27227, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27227, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNulty, Des", "ID": 1970, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Clydebank and Milngavie" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Des McNulty", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Des McNulty (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 30.0, "ContributionID": 713867, "EditedText": "The Standards Committee, a bit like the Procedures Committee, is a committee that works in the undergrowth, or behind the scenes. Only occasionally are its issues debated in the chamber. I am therefore pleased that a Standards Committee issue, which relates to the way in which our democracy works, is being debated today. Lots of people who were involved in the promotion of the Scottish Parliament were especially interested in two things. The first was the expansion of democracy, the way in which we can increase democracy in both breadth and depth to make it more accessible to people. The second was to increase transparency, both in the content of decisions and in the way in which they are made. Those underlying wishes have informed a lot of the Standards Committee's discussions of how to create a regulatory framework for cross- party groups. The point that Patricia Ferguson made is worth bearing in mind. We are doing something quite differently from the way in which it is done elsewhere. The framework here is designed not to put cross-party groups at a distance from the Parliament—as happens, to some extent, south of the border—but to bind them into Parliament, so that the people who get involved in cross-party group activity can feel a definite link between what they do in the cross-party groups and the way in which the Parliament works. In fact, it could be argued that cross-party groups create a third dimension of activity in the Parliament after the work that goes on in the chamber and in committees. Cross-party groups will allow people to contribute their own specialist expertise and knowledge in areas where they are interested enough to participate in the Parliament's work. The groups will be able to promote both specialist involvement in debate and the knowledge of MSPs so that we are better informed when discussing particular issues in the chamber or in committee. That would be a valuable way of binding people into the new democracy in Scotland and of improving the content of the democratic process. In developing arguments for the regulation of cross-party groups, we wanted to ensure that appropriate safeguards were in place so that the groups were properly constituted when they were formed and were not the prey of specific interest groups acting inappropriately. Furthermore, groups needed to be subject to democratic procedures and defined in terms of a parliamentary purpose linked to the public interest. The regulations encapsulate all those principles and I am grateful that there is broad cross-party support for how we have achieved that. Donald Gorrie's point about the time available for cross-party activity raises an issue for the Parliament. There is a narrowing of opportunity for MSPs to participate in such activity because so many of them commute to the Parliament and because such a range of possible activities is available only in the middle and at the end of days when Parliament is meeting. That is an issue that the Parliament, perhaps through the Procedures Committee, needs to consider. We cannot confine the Parliament's work to official parliamentary sittings. There must be a mechanism that allows us to have a dialogue with people outside these formal settings who can contribute to our discussions. Cross-party groups can permit informal contact between parliamentarians and interest groups and people with interests in particular issues. By giving those groups a degree of legitimacy and access to the Parliament, we hope that they can be given time and the opportunity to involve parliamentarians effectively. The range of cross-party groups will evolve. In time, new groups will be created and perhaps old groups formed around old issues will fall by the wayside. A very encouraging range of people want to become involved in this way in the working of the Parliament. By establishing a framework for cross-party groups early in the Parliament, we are encouraging and promoting such activity and participation, which can only be good for the Parliament. The Standards Committee has done a good job in establishing this set of frameworks. However, as Iain Smith pointed out, we need to ensure that those frameworks are continually monitored and developed. The whole Parliament has a responsibility to take the opportunity presented by this set of regulations to be welcoming, encouraging and accessible and to ensure that this new form of participation in our democracy develops and flourishes.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Standards Committee, a bit like the Procedures Committee, is a committee that works in the undergrowth, or behind the scenes. Only occasionally are its issues debated in the chamber. I am therefore pleased that a Standards Committee issue, which relates to the way in which our democracy works, is being debated today.

Lots of people who were involved in the promotion of the Scottish Parliament were especially interested in two things. The first was the expansion of democracy, the way in which we can increase democracy in both breadth and depth to make it more accessible to people. The second was to increase transparency, both in the content of decisions and in the way in which they are made. Those underlying wishes have informed a lot of the Standards Committee's discussions of how to create a regulatory framework for cross- party groups.

The point that Patricia Ferguson made is worth bearing in mind. We are doing something quite differently from the way in which it is done elsewhere. The framework here is designed not to put cross-party groups at a distance from the Parliament—as happens, to some extent, south of the border—but to bind them into Parliament, so that the people who get involved in cross-party group activity can feel a definite link between what they do in the cross-party groups and the way in which the Parliament works.

In fact, it could be argued that cross-party groups create a third dimension of activity in the Parliament after the work that goes on in the chamber and in committees. Cross-party groups will allow people to contribute their own specialist expertise and knowledge in areas where they are interested enough to participate in the Parliament's work. The groups will be able to promote both specialist involvement in debate and the knowledge of MSPs so that we are better informed when discussing particular issues in the chamber or in committee. That would be a valuable way of binding people into the new democracy in Scotland and of improving the content of the democratic process.

In developing arguments for the regulation of cross-party groups, we wanted to ensure that appropriate safeguards were in place so that the groups were properly constituted when they were formed and were not the prey of specific interest groups acting inappropriately. Furthermore, groups needed to be subject to democratic procedures and defined in terms of a parliamentary purpose linked to the public interest. The regulations encapsulate all those principles and I am grateful that there is broad cross-party support for how we have achieved that.

Donald Gorrie's point about the time available for cross-party activity raises an issue for the Parliament. There is a narrowing of opportunity for MSPs to participate in such activity because so many of them commute to the Parliament and because such a range of possible activities is available only in the middle and at the end of days when Parliament is meeting. That is an issue that the Parliament, perhaps through the Procedures Committee, needs to consider.

We cannot confine the Parliament's work to official parliamentary sittings. There must be a mechanism that allows us to have a dialogue with people outside these formal settings who can contribute to our discussions. Cross-party groups can permit informal contact between parliamentarians and interest groups and people with interests in particular issues. By giving those groups a degree of legitimacy and access to the Parliament, we hope that they can be given time and the opportunity to involve parliamentarians effectively.

The range of cross-party groups will evolve. In time, new groups will be created and perhaps old groups formed around old issues will fall by the wayside. A very encouraging range of people want to become involved in this way in the working of the Parliament. By establishing a framework for cross-party groups early in the Parliament, we are encouraging and promoting such activity and participation, which can only be good for the Parliament.

The Standards Committee has done a good job in establishing this set of frameworks. However, as Iain Smith pointed out, we need to ensure that those frameworks are continually monitored and developed. The whole Parliament has a responsibility to take the opportunity presented by this set of regulations to be welcoming, encouraging and accessible and to ensure that this new form of participation in our democracy develops and flourishes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C713881", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 60.0, "ContributionID": 713881, "EditedText": "The changes to different levels are explained by several factors. In recent weeks, Mr Gallie has had a particular interest in the changes to the Prison Service balances in the past few years. As Mr Jim Wallace has said repeatedly, the prisons baseline for this year remains the same. The end-year flexibility for prisons, from money available from the end of last year, has been carried forward into this year and is available to the prisons budget. The money that has been reorganised in the justice budget is going towards, among other things, the £2 million announced yesterday for victim support services. I have heard Mr Gallie discussing victim support over many years and I hope that he will support that reprioritisation. Ultimately, budgeting is about spending priorities. Our main challenge is to create the type of society that we all want for the citizens of the new Scotland. Social justice underpins the budget for 2000-01. That budget will help to deliver the kind of country that we want—a country where everyone can feel safe, where our children can achieve their full potential through a world-class education system, where creativity is not stifled and enterprise is encouraged, and where people grow older in comfort and in good health. The figures that we are discussing today progress us along that road. The plans provide the resources to tackle the serious issues facing Scotland: ill health, drugs, jobs and education standards. We have set out our specific priorities, first in our coalition partnership agreement, and, building on that, in our detailed work plan—the programme for government, which was published in September. Those priorities range across all areas of Scottish life and reflect our determination to secure a better life for all. Top among them are modernising Scottish schools, raising standards and achievement, improving the health of the Scottish people and providing a modern, high-quality and responsive national health service in Scotland. Over three years, £1.8 billion more will be available for health and there will be an additional £1.3 billion for education, delivered through the comprehensive spending review. Our plans set out significant increases in key areas. The total budget for 2000-01 is £16.7 billion, an increase from this year of £500 million. Of that total, we will allocate just over £6 billion to local authorities, an increase greater than inflation. The health service will be allocated £5.2 billion, an increase in funding of more than £170 million. Nearly £2 billion will go to education and enterprise and around £500 million each will go to communities, rural affairs, justice and transport and the environment. Within local authority expenditure, the grant- aided expenditure for 2000-01, which gives a guideline for what local authorities might spend, indicates spending of £2.7 billion on education, £1.1 billion on social work, £700 million on police and £200 million on the fire service. Again, the plans reflect the importance that we attach to the health of the nation and to future national success through world-class education.", "EditedTextHTML": "The changes to different levels are explained by several factors. In recent weeks, Mr Gallie has had a particular interest in the changes to the Prison Service balances in the past few years. As Mr Jim Wallace has said repeatedly, the prisons baseline for this year remains the same. The end-year flexibility for prisons, from money available from the end of last year, has been carried forward into this year and is available to the prisons budget. The money that has been reorganised in the justice budget is going towards, among other things, the £2 million announced yesterday for victim support services. I have heard Mr Gallie discussing victim support over many years and I hope that he will support that reprioritisation.

Ultimately, budgeting is about spending priorities. Our main challenge is to create the type of society that we all want for the citizens of the new Scotland. Social justice underpins the budget for 2000-01. That budget will help to deliver the kind of country that we want—a country where everyone can feel safe, where our children can achieve their full potential through a world-class education system, where creativity is not stifled and enterprise is encouraged, and where people grow older in comfort and in good health.

The figures that we are discussing today progress us along that road. The plans provide the resources to tackle the serious issues facing Scotland: ill health, drugs, jobs and education standards.

We have set out our specific priorities, first in our coalition partnership agreement, and, building on that, in our detailed work plan—the programme for government, which was published in September. Those priorities range across all areas of Scottish

life and reflect our determination to secure a better life for all. Top among them are modernising Scottish schools, raising standards and achievement, improving the health of the Scottish people and providing a modern, high-quality and responsive national health service in Scotland. Over three years, £1.8 billion more will be available for health and there will be an additional £1.3 billion for education, delivered through the comprehensive spending review. Our plans set out significant increases in key areas.

The total budget for 2000-01 is £16.7 billion, an increase from this year of £500 million. Of that total, we will allocate just over £6 billion to local authorities, an increase greater than inflation. The health service will be allocated £5.2 billion, an increase in funding of more than £170 million. Nearly £2 billion will go to education and enterprise and around £500 million each will go to communities, rural affairs, justice and transport and the environment.

Within local authority expenditure, the grant- aided expenditure for 2000-01, which gives a guideline for what local authorities might spend, indicates spending of £2.7 billion on education, £1.1 billion on social work, £700 million on police and £200 million on the fire service. Again, the plans reflect the importance that we attach to the health of the nation and to future national success through world-class education.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C713885", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 68.0, "ContributionID": 713885, "EditedText": "On top of the huge increases already in the budget for this year, we allocated an additional £35 million in the spending review that was announced on 6 October. That is new money, from a budget that was drastically cut by the Conservatives over many years—", "EditedTextHTML": "On top of the huge increases already in the budget for this year, we allocated an additional £35 million in the spending review that was announced on 6 October. That is new money, from a budget that was drastically cut by the Conservatives over many years—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C713894", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 86.0, "ContributionID": 713894, "EditedText": "I am glad that Mr Sheridan is coming round to our way of thinking. This is a five- year Government, and the two years of management of public finances that have already taken place have provided the sound basis that gives us the lowest inflation, the lowest unemployment and the lowest interest rates for a generation. That allows the significant increases that are now taking place to be sustainable—not just for the remainder of the five years of this Government, but for this Parliament to plan stability in our finances for the future. I welcome that long-term perspective, which is a good thing for the country. It is much more interesting to ask, \"What about the SNP?\"", "EditedTextHTML": "I am glad that Mr Sheridan is coming round to our way of thinking. This is a five- year Government, and the two years of management of public finances that have already taken place have provided the sound basis that gives us the lowest inflation, the lowest unemployment and the lowest interest rates for a generation. That allows the significant increases that are now taking place to be sustainable—not just for the remainder of the five years of this Government, but for this Parliament to plan stability in our finances for the future. I welcome that long-term perspective, which is a good thing for the country. It is much more interesting to ask, \"What about the SNP?\"

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C713902", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 102.0, "ContributionID": 713902, "EditedText": "Mr Wilson says that that is not true, so I will quote what he said in this morning's newspaper. He said that there was a tiny 0.5 per cent real-terms increase in the health budget for next year.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Wilson says that that is not true, so I will quote what he said in this morning's newspaper. He said that there was a tiny 0.5 per cent real-terms increase in the health budget for next year.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C713916", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 131.0, "ContributionID": 713916, "EditedText": "It remains the position of the SNP that there is value in free delivery of public services in both health and education. That remains the position of the SNP. It is a shame that it is no longer the Labour position. We wait with interest to see what the Liberal Democrat position will be. The fact of the matter is that it is good to be a pensioner in Ireland. Pensioners are treated with respect because of the wealth of their country's economy. In Ireland, corporate taxation was cut, progressive taxation was introduced and spending on education was increased by 40 per cent. That is the bounty of a real budget, when a finance minister has two hands with which to deliver. A recent editorial in The Times said that the Irish finance minister had delivered an early Christmas present for the citizens of the republic. We will hear no such homily for Mr McConnell during his budget process. Great chap as he may be, the Minister for Finance has one hand tied behind his back and is delivering a hand-me-down budget from London.", "EditedTextHTML": "It remains the position of the SNP that there is value in free delivery of public services in both health and education. That remains the position of the SNP. It is a shame that it is no longer the Labour position. We wait with interest to see what the Liberal Democrat position will be.

The fact of the matter is that it is good to be a pensioner in Ireland. Pensioners are treated with respect because of the wealth of their country's economy. In Ireland, corporate taxation was cut, progressive taxation was introduced and spending on education was increased by 40 per cent. That is the bounty of a real budget, when a finance minister has two hands with which to deliver. A recent editorial in The Times said that the Irish finance minister had delivered an early Christmas present for the citizens of the republic. We will hear no such homily for Mr McConnell during his budget process. Great chap as he may be, the Minister for Finance has one hand tied behind his back and is delivering a hand-me-down budget from London.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C713909", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 117.0, "ContributionID": 713909, "EditedText": "All members of the Local Government Committee—those who stay for whole meetings, rather than Fergus Ewing, who dips in and out—will have heard that the revaluation is taking place this year. It is rubbish to suggest that any Scottish business will pay more than any equivalent business south of the border, as Fergus Ewing well knows. If Fergus Ewing listens to business organisations that are explaining that to members at the moment, he will hear that point of view. Does Andrew Wilson have in his budget for this year—which, I note, the amendment does not mention at all—the £74 million extra that in a press release of 28 November Fergus Ewing, as the SNP small business spokesman, called on the Executive to put into the Highlands and Islands economy next year? Is that money in Andrew Wilson's budget, and will he explain from which area it would come?", "EditedTextHTML": "All members of the Local Government Committee—those who stay for whole meetings, rather than Fergus Ewing, who dips in and out—will have heard that the revaluation is taking place this year. It is rubbish to suggest that any Scottish business will pay more than any equivalent business south of the border, as Fergus Ewing well knows. If Fergus Ewing listens to business organisations that are explaining that to members at the moment, he will hear that point of view.

Does Andrew Wilson have in his budget for this year—which, I note, the amendment does not mention at all—the £74 million extra that in a press release of 28 November Fergus Ewing, as the SNP small business spokesman, called on the Executive to put into the Highlands and Islands economy next year? Is that money in Andrew

Wilson's budget, and will he explain from which area it would come?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C713917", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Keith Raffan (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 133.0, "ContributionID": 713917, "EditedText": "Mr Wilson mentioned corporate taxes in Ireland. Does he agree with the income tax levels in Ireland of 45 per cent for people earning more than £14,000 and the extremely high VAT rate of 21 per cent? Is that what we would have in an independent Scotland?", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Wilson mentioned corporate taxes in Ireland. Does he agree with the income tax levels in Ireland of 45 per cent for people earning more than £14,000 and the extremely high VAT rate of 21 per cent? Is that what we would have in an independent Scotland?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C713912", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 123.0, "ContributionID": 713912, "EditedText": "I would be delighted.", "EditedTextHTML": "I would be delighted.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C713914", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 127.0, "ContributionID": 713914, "EditedText": "I do not. I believe in absolutely free delivery of health, as of education services— unlike, perhaps, the Lib-Lab Executive. I do not regard a free health service as a middle-class subsidy, which is how the Executive appears to view a free education service.", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not. I believe in absolutely free delivery of health, as of education services— unlike, perhaps, the Lib-Lab Executive. I do not regard a free health service as a middle-class subsidy, which is how the Executive appears to view a free education service.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C713915", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 129.0, "ContributionID": 713915, "EditedText": "Does Andrew Wilson think that Mr Lyon does not realise that the Irish have abolished tuition fees?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does Andrew Wilson think that Mr Lyon does not realise that the Irish have abolished tuition fees?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C713919", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Richard Simpson (Ochil) (Lab) rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 137.0, "ContributionID": 713919, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C713920", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 139.0, "ContributionID": 713920, "EditedText": "I will move on.I point out to Mr Raffan—who is, I believe, a Liberal Democrat spokesperson—that the Liberal policy is to abolish tax allowances and to increase the top rate of tax to 50p in the pound. That is the position set out last month by Matthew Taylor in the House of Commons, who also said: \"Public spending . . . has been restrained and we see continued deterioration in key areas of public service. Where has the money gone?\"—Official Report, House of Commons, 24 November 1999; Vol 339, c 638. Does Mr Raffan agree with that, or does he simply go along with what Labour tells his party to do? The reality is that the Liberals are finished as a serious force.The SNP asks the chamber to face up to the choices that are before us. We have a choice between decline masked by spin under the Labour party, with its Liberal lap dogs, and the chance for modern investment in the 21st century. Do we want a right-wing, direct-tax-cut, unfair-tax-rise agenda, or a fair and honest investment in the services that we care about? Why is Ireland, with nothing like the resources at its disposal that we have, able to set its sights so high, when all that we do is stare at our collective feet?", "EditedTextHTML": "I will move on.

I point out to Mr Raffan—who is, I believe, a Liberal Democrat spokesperson—that the Liberal policy is to abolish tax allowances and to increase the top rate of tax to 50p in the pound. That is the position set out last month by Matthew Taylor in the House of Commons, who also said:

\"Public spending . . . has been restrained and we see continued deterioration in key areas of public service. Where has the money gone?\"—[Official Report, House of Commons, 24 November 1999; Vol 339, c 638.]

Does Mr Raffan agree with that, or does he simply go along with what Labour tells his party to do? The reality is that the Liberals are finished as a

serious force.

The SNP asks the chamber to face up to the choices that are before us. We have a choice between decline masked by spin under the Labour party, with its Liberal lap dogs, and the chance for modern investment in the 21st century. Do we want a right-wing, direct-tax-cut, unfair-tax-rise agenda, or a fair and honest investment in the services that we care about? Why is Ireland, with nothing like the resources at its disposal that we have, able to set its sights so high, when all that we do is stare at our collective feet?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C713927", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Davidson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 154.0, "ContributionID": 713927, "EditedText": "I am happy to answer the minister's questions. The first was about unemployment, was it not? Did not we hand the current Administration a golden legacy? All Labour has done is continue what we gave it. Secondly, nobody is arguing about published projected figures, which is what Mr McConnell has been quoting from. If one looks carefully at what happened when the Conservatives were in government, one can see that projected figures were published every year. However, we actually spent far more than those projected figures every year, because we focused on initiatives as they needed to be dealt with. Even Mr Raffan will remember, from his days as a real politician and a Conservative, that that was the case. If coalition members are not careful, I shall let Phil Gallie back in again.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am happy to answer the minister's questions. The first was about unemployment, was it not? Did not we hand the current Administration a golden legacy? All Labour has done is continue what we gave it.

Secondly, nobody is arguing about published projected figures, which is what Mr McConnell has been quoting from. If one looks carefully at what happened when the Conservatives were in government, one can see that projected figures were published every year. However, we actually spent far more than those projected figures every year, because we focused on initiatives as they needed to be dealt with. Even Mr Raffan will

remember, from his days as a real politician and a Conservative, that that was the case.

If coalition members are not careful, I shall let Phil Gallie back in again.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C713929", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 158.0, "ContributionID": 713929, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C713930", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Davidson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 160.0, "ContributionID": 713930, "EditedText": "I will let Mr McConnell intervene again if he will answer one more question. Are we seeing the beginning of rationing in the Scottish health service, caused by the starvation of funds in key areas? Is the answer yes or no?", "EditedTextHTML": "I will let Mr McConnell intervene again if he will answer one more question. Are we seeing the beginning of rationing in the Scottish health service, caused by the starvation of funds in key areas? Is the answer yes or no?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C713932", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Davidson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 164.0, "ContributionID": 713932, "EditedText": "Now Mr McConnell has got another speech off his chest, perhaps he would like to consider the truth of the matter. We do not deny that we published projected figures, but members ought to look at the money that we actually spent. The Labour Government, by the way, has published no such figures since coming to power. Committees have asked for those figures, but they have not been supplied. The guys in the Executive are the ones in power. Why worry about the past? It is their ball; why do they not play it?", "EditedTextHTML": "Now Mr McConnell has got another speech off his chest, perhaps he would like to consider the truth of the matter. We do not deny that we published projected figures, but members ought to look at the money that we actually spent. The Labour Government, by the way, has published no such figures since coming to power. Committees have asked for those figures, but they have not been supplied. The guys in the Executive are the ones in power. Why worry about the past? It is their ball; why do they not play it?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2038E191P344C713937", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Smith, Iain", "ID": 2038, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Iain Smith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Parliament (Iain Smith) rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 174.0, "ContributionID": 713937, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C713941", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Davidson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 182.0, "ContributionID": 713941, "EditedText": "I must push on. It is not my fault; it is the lady's. On Tuesday, will tuition fees be dead, and how will the Liberal Democrats pay for them? The money that was used to buy them to play on the Labour reserve team has been spent. Is not it dishonest to be elected to this chamber to abolish tuition fees, yet sign up with the Labour party and not ask Mr McConnell to put money aside in the budget to do that? Does that mean that the Liberal Democrats had no intention of honouring their promise? Why do they not make Scotland's day and prove me wrong on Tuesday? Andrew Wilson's speech was an interesting standard piece. The economics were reasonable. I am not sure what the final total was, but he should not play the same old record again and again. He recently released a new one. I believe that the best tune is \"The Rowan Tree\", which possibly will grow faster than his party's policy, but I do not know. This is a Scrooge budget that is full of deception and hits at our public services, those who depend on them and those who work within them. It is a budget that must be rejected at this stage. Therefore, I ask the Executive, as the song \"Flower of Scotland\" states, to go away and \"think again.\" I urge Parliament not to adopt the budget.", "EditedTextHTML": "I must push on. It is not my fault; it is the lady's.

On Tuesday, will tuition fees be dead, and how will the Liberal Democrats pay for them? The money that was used to buy them to play on the Labour reserve team has been spent. Is not it dishonest to be elected to this chamber to abolish tuition fees, yet sign up with the Labour party and not ask Mr McConnell to put money aside in the budget to do that? Does that mean that the Liberal Democrats had no intention of honouring their promise? Why do they not make Scotland's day and prove me wrong on Tuesday?

Andrew Wilson's speech was an interesting standard piece. The economics were reasonable. I am not sure what the final total was, but he should not play the same old record again and again. He recently released a new one. I believe that the best tune is \"The Rowan Tree\", which possibly will grow faster than his party's policy, but I do not know.

This is a Scrooge budget that is full of deception and hits at our public services, those who depend on them and those who work within them. It is a budget that must be rejected at this stage. Therefore, I ask the Executive, as the song \"Flower of Scotland\" states, to go away and \"think again.\"

I urge Parliament not to adopt the budget.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C713942", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Keith Raffan (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 185.0, "ContributionID": 713942, "EditedText": "That was a singularly ill-judged speech from Mr Davidson, in view of his party's record. Nobody denies that the Conservative party knows about money. How could we deny that, when on one day—black Wednesday—it lost not hundreds of thousands, not millions, not billions of pounds, but one half to three quarters of the entire Scottish block?", "EditedTextHTML": "That was a singularly ill-judged speech from Mr Davidson, in view of his party's record. Nobody denies that the Conservative party knows about money. How could we deny that, when on one

day—black Wednesday—it lost not hundreds of thousands, not millions, not billions of pounds, but one half to three quarters of the entire Scottish block?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C713944", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 189.0, "ContributionID": 713944, "EditedText": "I will not give way yet. Miss Goldie knows that I have a soft spot for her, and I will give way to her later, but she must restrain herself.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will not give way yet. Miss Goldie knows that I have a soft spot for her, and I will give way to her later, but she must restrain herself.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C713945", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Goldie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 191.0, "ContributionID": 713945, "EditedText": "I can hardly wait.", "EditedTextHTML": "I can hardly wait.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C713950", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 201.0, "ContributionID": 713950, "EditedText": "I certainly do not agree. Ms Hyslop must not get over-excited. She and I are both members of the Social Inclusion, Housing and Voluntary Sector Committee and we have discussed this matter. She knows that the money exists and that it will be spent in a way that the Minister for Communities has said, in the chamber, will improve homes—", "EditedTextHTML": "I certainly do not agree. Ms Hyslop must not get over-excited. She and I are both members of the Social Inclusion, Housing and Voluntary Sector Committee and we have discussed this matter. She knows that the money exists and that it will be spent in a way that the

Minister for Communities has said, in the chamber, will improve homes—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C713954", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Davidson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 209.0, "ContributionID": 713954, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C713962", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 225.0, "ContributionID": 713962, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C713964", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 229.0, "ContributionID": 713964, "EditedText": "He cannot answer the question.", "EditedTextHTML": "He cannot answer the question.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C713965", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 231.0, "ContributionID": 713965, "EditedText": "I just answered it. The minister, rightly, warned the Finance Committee—and other subject committees when he appeared before them—that we should not produce an unrealistic wish list. If we are to propose budget increases, we should say at the same time where the money is coming from.", "EditedTextHTML": "I just answered it. The minister, rightly, warned the Finance Committee—and other subject committees when he appeared before them—that we should not produce an unrealistic wish list. If we are to propose budget increases, we should say at the same time where the money is coming from.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C713967", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 235.0, "ContributionID": 713967, "EditedText": "I am grateful to Mr Wilson; I was just coming to him. That message has been lost on the Scottish National party. Earlier today I counted how many SNP members in the chamber had not made spending pledges. Three. Perhaps it is fewer now—so many have been made. Spending pledges made by the SNP since 1 September total £1.3813 billion—", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful to Mr Wilson; I was just coming to him. That message has been lost on the Scottish National party. Earlier today I counted how many SNP members in the chamber had not made spending pledges. Three. Perhaps it is fewer now—so many have been made. Spending pledges made by the SNP since 1 September total £1.3813 billion—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C713970", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 241.0, "ContributionID": 713970, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C713975", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 251.0, "ContributionID": 713975, "EditedText": "Mr Wilson should sit down.The SNP has made pledges galore. On 9 September it said that it would spend an extra £300,000 on Grampian police. On 20 September, Mr Ewing pledged £1.7 million for Inverness College. Mr MacAskill would spend £8.6 million on the abolition of tolls on the Forth road bridge. On 21 October, £50 million was pledged for health care and £13 million for the Scottish Prison Service. On 26 October, Mr Swinney entered the fray and pledged £42 million for the abolition of tuition fees. On 28 October, Mr MacAskill pledged £130 million for public transport and on 4 November he pledged £800 million for roads. On 8 November, £75 million was pledged for the police.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Wilson should sit down.

The SNP has made pledges galore. On 9 September it said that it would spend an extra £300,000 on Grampian police. On 20 September, Mr Ewing pledged £1.7 million for Inverness College. Mr MacAskill would spend £8.6 million on the abolition of tolls on the Forth road bridge. On 21 October, £50 million was pledged for health care and £13 million for the Scottish Prison Service. On 26 October, Mr Swinney entered the fray and pledged £42 million for the abolition of tuition fees. On 28 October, Mr MacAskill pledged £130 million for public transport and on 4 November he pledged £800 million for roads. On 8 November, £75 million was pledged for the police.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C713976", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 253.0, "ContributionID": 713976, "EditedText": "Wind up, please.", "EditedTextHTML": "Wind up, please.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C713979", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 259.0, "ContributionID": 713979, "EditedText": "Shirley Bassey is modest by comparison.", "EditedTextHTML": "Shirley Bassey is modest by comparison.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C713982", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 265.0, "ContributionID": 713982, "EditedText": "Come to a close, please, Mr Raffan.", "EditedTextHTML": "Come to a close, please, Mr Raffan.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C713984", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 269.0, "ContributionID": 713984, "EditedText": "Close, please.", "EditedTextHTML": "Close, please.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C713985", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 271.0, "ContributionID": 713985, "EditedText": "I will close.The SNP has zero credibility and its shadow Minister for Finance has no credibility with his own party, let alone with others, so why should any of us listen to him?", "EditedTextHTML": "I will close.

The SNP has zero credibility and its shadow Minister for Finance has no credibility with his own party, let alone with others, so why should any of us listen to him?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C713986", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 273.0, "ContributionID": 713986, "EditedText": "We now move on—Interruption. I realise that we are in the pantomime season, but I would be grateful if members observed some decorum in the chamber. We now move to the open part of the debate. Members have four minutes.", "EditedTextHTML": "We now move on—[Interruption.]

I realise that we are in the pantomime season, but I would be grateful if members observed some decorum in the chamber.

We now move to the open part of the debate. Members have four minutes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2123E103P242C713987", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Chisholm, Malcolm", "ID": 2123, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh North and Leith" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Malcolm Chisholm", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 276.0, "ContributionID": 713987, "EditedText": "As I have grappled with Scottish expenditure tables for most of the decade, I welcome this first ever debate on level 2 expenditure totals. I look forward to a more comprehensive process next year, in which all the committees will be involved, to the implementation of the minister's undertakings on real-terms spending, and to more disaggregation of figures where that is appropriate. I would like to add one note of caution: decisions on the two biggest lines in the budget—local authority revenue and hospital and community health services—are, fundamentally, made at local level. That should be borne in mind when we talk about further disaggregation. Mr Wilson used a lot of figures in his speech today. I will address some of them. He talked about public expenditure as a percentage of gross domestic product, but he did not mention the extent of GDP—because we have a stronger economy and a much larger GDP than we did during the Tory years to which he referred. He talked about the final years of the Conservative Government, but he did not mention the unsustainable levels of borrowing during that period, which have to be dealt with. Mr Davidson spoke on the same theme and referred to the high point of Tory public expenditure in 1994-95. That was a freak year, if members consider the whole period of Conservative Governments. That level of expenditure was unsustainable without the economic problems being dealt with. The main point that Mr Wilson made—and repeated in his amendment—was about percentage increases in England as distinct from Scotland. I tried to deal with that issue at question time last week, which was perhaps unwise given that most members had their minds on another matter. If we start with a higher base, we will have lower percentage increases each year.", "EditedTextHTML": "As I have grappled with Scottish expenditure tables for most of the decade, I welcome this first ever debate on level 2 expenditure totals. I look forward to a more comprehensive process next year, in which all the committees will be involved, to the implementation of the minister's undertakings on real-terms spending, and to more disaggregation of figures where that is appropriate.

I would like to add one note of caution: decisions on the two biggest lines in the budget—local authority revenue and hospital and community health services—are, fundamentally, made at local level. That should be borne in mind when we talk about further disaggregation.

Mr Wilson used a lot of figures in his speech today. I will address some of them. He talked about public expenditure as a percentage of gross domestic product, but he did not mention the extent of GDP—because we have a stronger economy and a much larger GDP than we did during the Tory years to which he referred. He talked about the final years of the Conservative Government, but he did not mention the unsustainable levels of borrowing during that period, which have to be dealt with. Mr Davidson spoke on the same theme and referred to the high point of Tory public expenditure in 1994-95. That was a freak year, if members consider the whole period of Conservative Governments. That level of expenditure was unsustainable without the economic problems being dealt with.

The main point that Mr Wilson made—and repeated in his amendment—was about percentage increases in England as distinct from Scotland. I tried to deal with that issue at question time last week, which was perhaps unwise given that most members had their minds on another matter. If we start with a higher base, we will have lower percentage increases each year.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C713990", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Davidson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 282.0, "ContributionID": 713990, "EditedText": "Will Malcolm Chisholm give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Malcolm Chisholm give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2123E103P242C713991", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Chisholm, Malcolm", "ID": 2123, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh North and Leith" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Malcolm Chisholm", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Malcolm Chisholm: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 284.0, "ContributionID": 713991, "EditedText": "I have five seconds left, so I cannot give way. As usual, the SNP says—in the second part of its amendment—that fiscal autonomy would allow the Scottish Parliament to allocate the resources required for Scottish public services. I know that there is controversy about the details, but this week's \"Government Expenditure and Revenue in Scotland 1997-1998\" report makes it clear that the overall range for the Scottish fiscal deficit, including oil, falls somewhere between—this is where the argument arises—£5.25 billion and £2 billion. We also know the long-term trend in oil over the next 10 to 20 years will be falling production levels. I know that Mr Wilson is one of the few SNP people to have acknowledged a structural fiscal deficit, so perhaps that point can be addressed in the summing-up at the end of the debate.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have five seconds left, so I cannot give way.

As usual, the SNP says—in the second part of its amendment—that fiscal autonomy would allow the Scottish Parliament to allocate the resources required for Scottish public services. I know that there is controversy about the details, but this week's \"Government Expenditure and Revenue in Scotland 1997-1998\" report makes it clear that the overall range for the Scottish fiscal deficit, including oil, falls somewhere between—this is where the argument arises—£5.25 billion and £2 billion. We also know the long-term trend in oil over the next 10 to 20 years will be falling production levels.

I know that Mr Wilson is one of the few SNP people to have acknowledged a structural fiscal deficit, so perhaps that point can be addressed in the summing-up at the end of the debate.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2112E192P495C713992", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacAskill, Kenny", "ID": 2112, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenny MacAskill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Kenny MacAskill (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 287.0, "ContributionID": 713992, "EditedText": "Listening to the Minister for Finance and his deputy, I am minded of the line in the Proclaimers song, which says: \"But I can't understand why we let someone else rule our land Cap in hand\". What a poverty of aspiration—boasting and bragging about expenditure levels that are inadequate to meet the needs, never mind minister the aspirations, of our people. At this time of year, people have their mind on family reunions and enjoyment. We should remember that we are the fifth largest oil producer in the western world, yet one in five of the youngsters sleeping rough on the streets of the city of London are Scots kids driven from their native land by a lack of housing, lack of employment and lack of hope. That is a badge of shame which every man and woman should wear until that wrong is righted. The draft budget is tokenistic and only tinkers with the nation's serious problems. We are the only country in the world that discovered oil and got poorer. Other nations discover oil and make the desert bloom; we discover oil and see the creation of an industrial desert in parts of the central belt. In what way is the budget an advance from the years of financial famine that we experienced under Thatcherism? The adage that there are lies, damned lies and statistics comes to mind when figures trip from the lips of the minister and his supporters. Their tarty publication attempts to mask real-terms cuts with cash-terms statistics. After years of Tory under-investment, it seems that Labour can do no better than the Tories. Scottish spending on transport during the next three years will be about £360 million less than if it had remained at the inadequate level that was inherited from the Tories. In October, the minister sounded a fanfare and announced that Ms Boyack would have an additional £35 million to spend on the roads programme. However, that would not cover even half of the long-overdue safety improvements on the A77. Incidentally, in the financial fog of the figures, I have been able to find only an increase of £20 million. However, I am not interested in pursuing a paper-chase that—in relation to the investment that we need in our infrastructure—amounts to a pittance. Two-Jags Prescott says that £80 billion for transport is available in the next 10 years. What is our share? Under current spending levels, the Scottish transport budget would be only a cumulative £3 billion in the next 10 years. In another fanfare of publicity, the Chancellor of the Exchequer announced the abolition of the fuel duty escalator. Was it really abolished? The name of the mechanism might have changed, but we face an increase next year, although this time the money will be ring-fenced for transport. What will our share of any ring-fenced fuel duty increase be? Just 1 per cent of any increase would pay for the much-trumpeted new money for Ms Boyack's budget. As I said earlier, John Prescott announced that £750 million would be made available to councils in England for bus priority and integrated transport schemes. Mr Raffan and others have criticised the Scottish National party for wanting to spend. I was criticised by the minister for saying that we should implement the strategic road review in full, even though I said that it should be implemented during a certain time scale. That £750 million would almost meet the strategic road review in full.", "EditedTextHTML": "Listening to the Minister for Finance and his deputy, I am minded of the line in the Proclaimers song, which says:

\"But I can't understand why we let someone else rule our land Cap in hand\".

What a poverty of aspiration—boasting and bragging about expenditure levels that are inadequate to meet the needs, never mind minister the aspirations, of our people.

At this time of year, people have their mind on family reunions and enjoyment. We should remember that we are the fifth largest oil producer in the western world, yet one in five of the youngsters sleeping rough on the streets of the city of London are Scots kids driven from their native land by a lack of housing, lack of employment and lack of hope. That is a badge of shame which every man and woman should wear until that wrong is righted.

The draft budget is tokenistic and only tinkers with the nation's serious problems. We are the only country in the world that discovered oil and got poorer. Other nations discover oil and make the desert bloom; we discover oil and see the creation of an industrial desert in parts of the central belt.

In what way is the budget an advance from the years of financial famine that we experienced under Thatcherism? The adage that there are lies, damned lies and statistics comes to mind when figures trip from the lips of the minister and his supporters. Their tarty publication attempts to mask real-terms cuts with cash-terms statistics. After years of Tory under-investment, it seems that Labour can do no better than the Tories.

Scottish spending on transport during the next three years will be about £360 million less than if it had remained at the inadequate level that was inherited from the Tories. In October, the minister sounded a fanfare and announced that Ms Boyack would have an additional £35 million to spend on the roads programme. However, that would not cover even half of the long-overdue safety improvements on the A77. Incidentally, in the financial fog of the figures, I have been able to find only an increase of £20 million. However, I am not interested in pursuing a paper-chase that—in relation to the investment that we need in our infrastructure—amounts to a pittance.

Two-Jags Prescott says that £80 billion for transport is available in the next 10 years. What is our share? Under current spending levels, the Scottish transport budget would be only a cumulative £3 billion in the next 10 years.

In another fanfare of publicity, the Chancellor of the Exchequer announced the abolition of the fuel duty escalator. Was it really abolished? The name of the mechanism might have changed, but we face an increase next year, although this time the money will be ring-fenced for transport. What will our share of any ring-fenced fuel duty increase be? Just 1 per cent of any increase would pay for the much-trumpeted new money for Ms Boyack's budget.

As I said earlier, John Prescott announced that £750 million would be made available to councils in England for bus priority and integrated transport schemes. Mr Raffan and others have criticised the Scottish National party for wanting to spend. I was criticised by the minister for saying that we should implement the strategic road review in full, even though I said that it should be implemented during a certain time scale. That £750 million would almost meet the strategic road review in full.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C713993", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 289.0, "ContributionID": 713993, "EditedText": "I know that Mr MacAskill might be restricted to speaking only about his budget responsibility for the SNP, but I want him to indicate to the chamber—as he has not done at any time in the past two months—which budget would be reduced, to pay for the significant increases that he repeats every time he speaks.", "EditedTextHTML": "I know that Mr MacAskill might be restricted to speaking only about his budget responsibility for the SNP, but I want him to indicate to the chamber—as he has not done at any time in the past two months—which budget would be reduced, to pay for the significant increases that he repeats every time he speaks.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1970E66P288C714000", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNulty, Des", "ID": 1970, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Clydebank and Milngavie" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Des McNulty", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Des McNulty (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 305.0, "ContributionID": 714000, "EditedText": "It is always instructive to speak soon after Mr MacAskill, with the single transferable rant that he seems to adopt as his argument on any issue. There is a genuine debate about how much is spent in Scotland, and the future of the Barnett formula. Unfortunately, we are not having that debate—rather, we are having a debate on different sums of money spent in different parts of the UK, and the Scottish National party and the Conservatives have had nothing enlightening to say on any other matter. The comprehensive spending review has put more money into services in Scotland. The figures that have been produced today, alongside those that have been presented in the past, make it clear that there has been a significant growth in spending on new projects. We need to focus our attention on how allocations between different budget heads are made and how effectively those budgets are used. The debate is not just about the volume of money, but about the way in which resources are applied and used.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is always instructive to speak soon after Mr MacAskill, with the single transferable rant that he seems to adopt as his argument on any issue.

There is a genuine debate about how much is spent in Scotland, and the future of the Barnett formula. Unfortunately, we are not having that debate—rather, we are having a debate on different sums of money spent in different parts of the UK, and the Scottish National party and the Conservatives have had nothing enlightening to say on any other matter.

The comprehensive spending review has put more money into services in Scotland. The figures that have been produced today, alongside those that have been presented in the past, make it clear that there has been a significant growth in spending on new projects.

We need to focus our attention on how allocations between different budget heads are made and how effectively those budgets are used. The debate is not just about the volume of money, but about the way in which resources are applied and used.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C713996", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Simpson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 296.0, "ContributionID": 713996, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2152E53P75C713997", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnston, Nick", "ID": 2152, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nick Johnston", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nick Johnston: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 298.0, "ContributionID": 713997, "EditedText": "One moment.Perhaps when the minister winds up, he will explain why elderly hospital patients are being denied food and drink, when Gordon Brown is increasing taxation and sitting with his war chest of £12 billion.", "EditedTextHTML": "One moment.

Perhaps when the minister winds up, he will explain why elderly hospital patients are being denied food and drink, when Gordon Brown is increasing taxation and sitting with his war chest of £12 billion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C714013", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Goldie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 333.0, "ContributionID": 714013, "EditedText": "Does Mr Lyon welcome with equal relish his party's ditched promises, which, as Nicola Sturgeon will be interested to learn, included a promise at the previous election of 2,000 extra teachers? The Liberal Democrats' promise to abolish tuition fees has evaporated in the interests of the partnership agreement; they also promised to boost the planned education budget by £170 million. Can we anticipate that Mr Lyon will welcome such breaches with the same fervour as he welcomes the minister's statement?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does Mr Lyon welcome with equal relish his party's ditched promises, which, as Nicola Sturgeon will be interested to learn, included a promise at the previous election of 2,000 extra teachers? The Liberal Democrats' promise to abolish tuition fees has evaporated in the interests of the partnership agreement; they also promised to boost the planned education budget by £170 million. Can we anticipate that Mr Lyon will welcome such breaches with the same fervour as he welcomes the minister's statement?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C714025", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Goldie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 361.0, "ContributionID": 714025, "EditedText": "Alas, we have not had a Conservative Executive. Perhaps when we do, such transparency will not be a problem. I already challenged Mr Lyon on the matter of his party's commitments, or at least some of them, which simply flew out of the window once the partnership agreement was hatched. Under Labour and the Liberal Democrats, Scottish expenditure is down in many key areas. The Lib Dem manifesto commitments include pledges on education, health and transport, but the money that the party could have used to abolish tuition fees has been quite clearly designated for other areas. There can be no other explanation for the prevarication and obscurity of the Executive's replies to questions posed about that matter. This is a time of festive good will; far be it from me to be churlish and to not show some contemporary spirit concurrent with the times. We have watched with interest the debate about Scottish Enterprise. I spoke to Mr McConnell and to his colleague Mr McLeish, and I am pleased to note that the latter is a convert to Conservative thinking in relation to a reconsideration of Scottish Enterprise. I float the suggestion to Mr McConnell that there may be merit in considering the operation of Scottish Enterprise development funding, which is a successful activity. I suggest that there is good reason why Scottish Enterprise should be allowed to obtain net gain from successful development funding, thus creating a self-generating, indigenous enterprise development fund where success would, literally, breed success. I say that in a spirit of co-operation. I do not envy Mr McConnell's difficulties in trying to examine a spending plan alongside his budgetary proposals. I have articulated my criticisms of those plans, which have been repeated many times in this chamber. At times, it behoves the Opposition to try to be constructive and positive with its suggestions. I suggest that if Mr McConnell adopts our idea on development funding, he could both create money, which is legitimately the fruit of development activity in Scotland, and retain that money for a fruitful and vital purpose. We are unable to support the minister's motion and certainly unable to support the Scottish National party's amendment. While we welcome the minister's statement, we have profound reservations about the current levels of spending in Scotland. We are far from satisfied. With the degree of taxation—much of it by stealth—that applies to the population of Scotland, this spending round is a double blow to the Scottish people.", "EditedTextHTML": "Alas, we have not had a Conservative Executive. Perhaps when we do, such transparency will not be a problem.

I already challenged Mr Lyon on the matter of his party's commitments, or at least some of them, which simply flew out of the window once the partnership agreement was hatched. Under Labour and the Liberal Democrats, Scottish expenditure is down in many key areas. The Lib Dem manifesto commitments include pledges on education, health and transport, but the money that the party could have used to abolish tuition fees has been quite clearly designated for other areas. There can be no other explanation for the prevarication and obscurity of the Executive's replies to questions posed about that matter.

This is a time of festive good will; far be it from me to be churlish and to not show some contemporary spirit concurrent with the times. We have watched with interest the debate about Scottish Enterprise. I spoke to Mr McConnell and to his colleague Mr McLeish, and I am pleased to note that the latter is a convert to Conservative thinking in relation to a reconsideration of Scottish Enterprise. I float the suggestion to Mr McConnell that there may be merit in considering the operation of Scottish Enterprise development funding, which is a successful activity. I suggest that there is good reason why Scottish Enterprise should be allowed to obtain net gain from successful development funding, thus creating a self-generating, indigenous enterprise development fund where success would, literally, breed success. I say that in a spirit of co-operation.

I do not envy Mr McConnell's difficulties in trying to examine a spending plan alongside his budgetary proposals. I have articulated my criticisms of those plans, which have been repeated many times in this chamber. At times, it behoves the Opposition to try to be constructive and positive with its suggestions. I suggest that if Mr McConnell adopts our idea on development funding, he could both create money, which is legitimately the fruit of development activity in Scotland, and retain that money for a fruitful and vital purpose.

We are unable to support the minister's motion and certainly unable to support the Scottish National party's amendment. While we welcome the minister's statement, we have profound reservations about the current levels of spending in Scotland. We are far from satisfied. With the degree of taxation—much of it by stealth—that applies to the population of Scotland, this spending round is a double blow to the Scottish people.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C714039", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 391.0, "ContributionID": 714039, "EditedText": "That left a deficit in Scottish finances, which is, quite rightly, funded by the United Kingdom, as funding is allocated on the basis of need. We should welcome that situation. There is a deficit of £5.4 billion between £32.1 billion of expenditure and £26.7 billion of receipts.", "EditedTextHTML": "That left a deficit in Scottish finances, which is, quite rightly, funded by the United Kingdom, as funding is allocated on the basis of need. We should welcome that situation. There is a deficit of £5.4 billion between £32.1 billion of expenditure and £26.7 billion of receipts.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2100E64P254C714048", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Infectious Salmon Anaemia", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27229, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 407.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 407.0, "ID": 27229, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Home Robertson, John", "ID": 2100, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Lothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "John Home Robertson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs (Mr John Home Robertson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 411.0, "ContributionID": 714048, "EditedText": "I shall make a statement on infectious salmon anaemia, known as ISA for short. Scotland is the home of the Atlantic salmon. Wild salmon are important for tourism in Scotland, and Scotland has the biggest salmon farming industry in the European Union, worth about £500 million to our rural economy and sustaining about 6,500 jobs. I am sure that all members will agree that we must do everything possible to protect those valuable resources. ISA is a contagious viral disease that affects salmon in seawater. Other species are known to be capable of carrying the virus without ever developing the disease. The disease was first identified in Norway in 1984, outbreaks were reported in Canada in 1996 and the first Scottish case occurred in May 1998. Under EU legislation, the disease is regarded as exotic to EU waters. Immediate clearance of fish is required when the disease is confirmed and a raft of controls is put in place when the disease is suspected. Those include movement restrictions on fish, equipment, material and personnel, the disinfection of nets, and fallowing. Zones are created around suspect and confirmed sites and broadly similar controls are applied to non-infected farms located in those zones, depending on the assessment of risk. At present, there are 11 confirmed and 24 suspect sites, representing roughly 10 per cent of the total number of fish farms. The disease is confirmed where there is a combination of laboratory findings and clinical signs—in other words, where the fish show physical signs of the disease. It is important to recognise that the presence of the virus, which may give grounds for designating a site as suspicious, does not automatically mean that the disease will develop clinically. Only one in three sites declared suspicious have subsequently been confirmed as having the disease. In November, I announced that the virus had been detected in wild fish for the first time. Virus had been isolated in three cases—two sea trout and one eel. Other laboratory tests provided evidence that the virus may also have been present in brown and rainbow trout and in salmon parr in freshwater in the Conon, in the Tweed and on farms in Aberdeenshire and Kinross-shire. For those among us who are not scientists, it is important to realise that it is only where the virus is isolated that we can be certain that it is ISA, whereas other screening tests can reveal the presence of a virus that may or may not be ISA. In those cases further confirmatory tests are necessary. It is important to recognise the limited nature of the evidence surrounding wild fish. It is equally important to recognise that investigations into the latest suspected outbreaks on farms in the western isles and in Orkney, also announced last month, are not yet complete. The apparent lack of site contact with other ISA affected farms and the evidence of virus in wild fish, however limited, could suggest the possibility of a wider prevalence of the virus in the farmed and wild environment than previously thought. Claims of spread from fish farming to the wild are not supported by any current evidence. The three isolates that I have mentioned were from fish in areas where there are fish farms, but that may be pure coincidence. The possible cases on the east coast are a very long way from fish farming sites. More work clearly needs to be done. The Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food has agreed to carry out tests in wild fish south of the border. More intensive wild fish surveillance will be conducted in Scotland in the new year and further work on verifying the possible presence of ISA in freshwater is being carried out by the Fisheries Research Services agency in Aberdeen. We have carried out a comprehensive review of current controls in the light of new circumstances. Central to that review has been the conviction, shared by the industry, that ISA is a pernicious disease and that everything possible should be done to prevent it and to stamp it out where it occurs. I have decided to take the following action. First, controls on confirmed sites will continue. However, in the light of experience, we believe that greater flexibility in handling the clearance of fish is desirable. We have therefore submitted proposals to the European Commission. The Commission is supporting our initiative and I expect to report the outcome early next year. Secondly, again in the light of experience, we believe that there is a case for reviewing the criteria for how and when suspect sites should be designated. We will discuss that matter with the Commission, and I can announce the introduction of more flexible fallowing arrangements in relation to suspect sites. Thirdly, after careful consideration, we can make adjustments to the requirements that apply to noninfected farms in zones around confirmed and suspect sites. Two thirds of our fish farms have been subject to those restrictions, which were applied on a precautionary basis. I have decided that such farms will be subject only to requirements for permission to move fish, because fish have been identified as the main vector for spreading ISA. Again, we are introducing greater flexibility for fallowing in those non-infected sites. The details of these proposals are inevitably somewhat technical, and will be made available in the Scottish Parliament information centre. Our scientists in the Marine Laboratory in Aberdeen are still working hard on this extremely important and difficult problem. I am grateful for the advice and co-operation that we are receiving from the European Commission, as well as from Norway and Canada. The measures that I have announced today are completely consistent with our overriding objective of getting rid of ISA. I will keep this Parliament informed about developments.", "EditedTextHTML": "I shall make a statement on infectious salmon anaemia, known as ISA for short.

Scotland is the home of the Atlantic salmon. Wild salmon are important for tourism in Scotland, and Scotland has the biggest salmon farming industry in the European Union, worth about £500 million to our rural economy and sustaining about 6,500 jobs. I am sure that all members will agree that we must do everything possible to protect those valuable resources.

ISA is a contagious viral disease that affects salmon in seawater. Other species are known to be capable of carrying the virus without ever developing the disease. The disease was first identified in Norway in 1984, outbreaks were reported in Canada in 1996 and the first Scottish case occurred in May 1998.

Under EU legislation, the disease is regarded as exotic to EU waters. Immediate clearance of fish is required when the disease is confirmed and a raft of controls is put in place when the disease is suspected. Those include movement restrictions on fish, equipment, material and personnel, the disinfection of nets, and fallowing. Zones are created around suspect and confirmed sites and broadly similar controls are applied to non-infected farms located in those zones, depending on the assessment of risk.

At present, there are 11 confirmed and 24 suspect sites, representing roughly 10 per cent of the total number of fish farms. The disease is confirmed where there is a combination of laboratory findings and clinical signs—in other words, where the fish show physical signs of the disease. It is important to recognise that the presence of the virus, which may give grounds for designating a site as suspicious, does not automatically mean that the disease will develop clinically. Only one in three sites declared suspicious have subsequently been confirmed as having the disease.

In November, I announced that the virus had been detected in wild fish for the first time. Virus had been isolated in three cases—two sea trout and one eel. Other laboratory tests provided evidence that the virus may also have been present in brown and rainbow trout and in salmon parr in freshwater in the Conon, in the Tweed and on farms in Aberdeenshire and Kinross-shire.

For those among us who are not scientists, it is important to realise that it is only where the virus is isolated that we can be certain that it is ISA, whereas other screening tests can reveal the presence of a virus that may or may not be ISA. In those cases further confirmatory tests are necessary.

It is important to recognise the limited nature of the evidence surrounding wild fish. It is equally important to recognise that investigations into the latest suspected outbreaks on farms in the western isles and in Orkney, also announced last month, are not yet complete. The apparent lack of site contact with other ISA affected farms and the evidence of virus in wild fish, however limited, could suggest the possibility of a wider prevalence of the virus in the farmed and wild environment than previously thought.

Claims of spread from fish farming to the wild are not supported by any current evidence. The three isolates that I have mentioned were from fish in areas where there are fish farms, but that may be pure coincidence. The possible cases on the east coast are a very long way from fish farming sites.

More work clearly needs to be done. The Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food has agreed to carry out tests in wild fish south of the border. More intensive wild fish surveillance will be conducted in Scotland in the new year and further work on verifying the possible presence of ISA in freshwater is being carried out by the Fisheries Research Services agency in Aberdeen.

We have carried out a comprehensive review of current controls in the light of new circumstances. Central to that review has been the conviction, shared by the industry, that ISA is a pernicious disease and that everything possible should be done to prevent it and to stamp it out where it occurs.

I have decided to take the following action. First, controls on confirmed sites will continue. However, in the light of experience, we believe that greater flexibility in handling the clearance of fish is desirable. We have therefore submitted proposals to the European Commission. The Commission is supporting our initiative and I expect to report the outcome early next year.

Secondly, again in the light of experience, we believe that there is a case for reviewing the criteria for how and when suspect sites should be designated. We will discuss that matter with the Commission, and I can announce the introduction

of more flexible fallowing arrangements in relation to suspect sites.

Thirdly, after careful consideration, we can make adjustments to the requirements that apply to noninfected farms in zones around confirmed and suspect sites. Two thirds of our fish farms have been subject to those restrictions, which were applied on a precautionary basis. I have decided that such farms will be subject only to requirements for permission to move fish, because fish have been identified as the main vector for spreading ISA. Again, we are introducing greater flexibility for fallowing in those non-infected sites.

The details of these proposals are inevitably somewhat technical, and will be made available in the Scottish Parliament information centre.

Our scientists in the Marine Laboratory in Aberdeen are still working hard on this extremely important and difficult problem. I am grateful for the advice and co-operation that we are receiving from the European Commission, as well as from Norway and Canada. The measures that I have announced today are completely consistent with our overriding objective of getting rid of ISA. I will keep this Parliament informed about developments.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2140E187P335C714060", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Infectious Salmon Anaemia", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27229, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 407.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 407.0, "ID": 27229, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Rumbles, Mike", "ID": 2140, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Rumbles", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Mike Rumbles (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 435.0, "ContributionID": 714060, "EditedText": "I have two points—", "EditedTextHTML": "I have two points—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2100E64P254C714065", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Infectious Salmon Anaemia", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27229, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 407.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 407.0, "ID": 27229, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Home Robertson, John", "ID": 2100, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Lothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "John Home Robertson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Home Robertson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 445.0, "ContributionID": 714065, "EditedText": "Hindsight is a wonderful thing and, having been in opposition for a long time, I am aware of its attractions when one is indulging in debates such as this. I do not have that advantage in this case. I believe that eradication of ISA from Scottish waters, if it is possible, would from all points of view be infinitely preferable to containment. We might, however, be moving into a different set of circumstances, so the right thing to do is to act on the basis of good science, as with the measures that I have announced today. Dr Ewing used the word \"compensation\"—we are not in the business of compensation. We are in the process of making funds available to Highlands and Islands Enterprise to enable it to help businesses that are affected by the consequences of this disease, or the suspicion that their stocks are affected by it. It will be up to HIE to apply its own criteria to assess which businesses are most deserving of support. It is better to leave that to HIE, which knows the Highlands and Islands better than I do.", "EditedTextHTML": "Hindsight is a wonderful thing and, having been in opposition for a long time, I am aware of its attractions when one is indulging in debates such as this. I do not have that advantage in this case.

I believe that eradication of ISA from Scottish waters, if it is possible, would from all points of view be infinitely preferable to containment. We might, however, be moving into a different set of circumstances, so the right thing to do is to act on the basis of good science, as with the measures that I have announced today.

Dr Ewing used the word \"compensation\"—we are not in the business of compensation. We are in the process of making funds available to Highlands and Islands Enterprise to enable it to help businesses that are affected by the consequences of this disease, or the suspicion that their stocks are affected by it. It will be up to HIE to apply its own criteria to assess which businesses are most deserving of support. It is better to leave that to HIE, which knows the Highlands and Islands better than I do.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2100E64P254C714069", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Infectious Salmon Anaemia", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27229, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 407.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 407.0, "ID": 27229, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Home Robertson, John", "ID": 2100, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Lothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "John Home Robertson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Home Robertson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 453.0, "ContributionID": 714069, "EditedText": "We consult the industry all the time because it is so important in some of the remotest, most fragile areas in Scotland. Our decisions are driven by science, not by industry lobbying. That is in the interests of the industry. The industry has found some of the controls that existed in the past onerous and has challenged the necessity of some of them. The Executive has considered the situation in the light of good advice from our own scientists and from abroad. I am acting on that advice today. We will keep in touch with the industry at all times because I accept that there must be good liaison.", "EditedTextHTML": "We consult the industry all the time because it is so important in some of the remotest, most fragile areas in Scotland. Our decisions are driven by science, not by industry lobbying. That is in the interests of the industry. The industry has found some of the controls that existed in the past onerous and has challenged the necessity of some of them. The Executive has considered the situation in the light of good advice from our own scientists and from abroad. I am acting on that advice today. We will keep in touch with the industry at all times because I accept that there must be good liaison.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2223E203P342C714070", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Infectious Salmon Anaemia", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27229, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 407.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 407.0, "ID": 27229, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scott, Tavish", "ID": 2223, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Shetland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tavish Scott", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tavish Scott (Shetland) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 455.0, "ContributionID": 714070, "EditedText": "I thank the minister for his statement—he will be aware that the words that he utters in the chamber are important to the industry in terms of the commercial decisions that it takes every day. The minister mentioned Norway and Canada. In his discussions with the Norwegians and the Canadians, would he reflect on the control regimes that they have in place? If implemented here, such a regime would allow the Scottish industry to compete on a level playing field in an international commodity market. Will the minister clarify the terms of the adjustments to the requirements that apply to noninfected farms in the zones around confirmed and suspected sites? Will farms in such areas be able to take commercial decisions on restocking without restrictions, or will restrictions still be in place? If so, what will they be? Will the minister accept that terminology is important? Words such as \"suspicious\" are extremely market unfriendly for the industry in terms of supermarkets and consumers in general. Will he consider the terminology when, as he intimated, he makes a further report to the chamber?", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the minister for his statement—he will be aware that the words that he utters in the chamber are important to the industry in terms of the commercial decisions that it takes every day.

The minister mentioned Norway and Canada. In his discussions with the Norwegians and the Canadians, would he reflect on the control regimes that they have in place? If implemented here, such a regime would allow the Scottish industry to compete on a level playing field in an international commodity market.

Will the minister clarify the terms of the adjustments to the requirements that apply to noninfected farms in the zones around confirmed and suspected sites? Will farms in such areas be able to take commercial decisions on restocking without restrictions, or will restrictions still be in place? If so, what will they be?

Will the minister accept that terminology is important? Words such as \"suspicious\" are extremely market unfriendly for the industry in terms of supermarkets and consumers in general. Will he consider the terminology when, as he intimated, he makes a further report to the chamber?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2100E64P254C714075", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Infectious Salmon Anaemia", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27229, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 407.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 407.0, "ID": 27229, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Home Robertson, John", "ID": 2100, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Lothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "John Home Robertson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Home Robertson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 465.0, "ContributionID": 714075, "EditedText": "I am grateful for the question, as it is helpful to get the facts out to the public. The facts are, of course, available in the Scottish Parliament information centre. Farms where infection is confirmed will be subject to a six-month fallowing period. Farms where infection is suspected—where the disease has not been seen but the virus has been detected—will be subject to a fallowing period of between three and six months, with monthly inspections by scientists and inspectors. Farms that are not infected, within the narrow zone that I described earlier, will be subject to a six-week fallowing period. Farms in the surveillance area, which is a wide envelope around the infected areas, will also be subject to a six-week fallowing period. Sixty-six salmon farms will be taken out of the restrictions that apply to them just now, which will mean that, instead of two thirds of our farms being affected, only half will be. I acknowledge, of course, that that is still too many.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful for the question, as it is helpful to get the facts out to the public. The facts are, of course, available in the Scottish Parliament information centre.

Farms where infection is confirmed will be subject to a six-month fallowing period. Farms where infection is suspected—where the disease has not been seen but the virus has been detected—will be subject to a fallowing period of between three and six months, with monthly inspections by scientists and inspectors. Farms that are not infected, within the narrow zone that I described earlier, will be subject to a six-week fallowing period. Farms in the surveillance area, which is a wide envelope around the infected areas, will also be subject to a six-week fallowing period.

Sixty-six salmon farms will be taken out of the restrictions that apply to them just now, which will mean that, instead of two thirds of our farms being affected, only half will be. I acknowledge, of course, that that is still too many.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6388347+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2068E171P304C714076", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Infectious Salmon Anaemia", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27229, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 407.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 407.0, "ID": 27229, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stone, Jamie", "ID": 2068, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie Stone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 467.0, "ContributionID": 714076, "EditedText": "I am glad that the minister referred to remote and fragile communities, as the salmon industry is the lifeblood of parts of my constituency. He referred to the money that had been given to Highlands and Islands Enterprise. That is for the restart scheme. When will the scheme start? The industry is waiting for the answer.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am glad that the minister referred to remote and fragile communities, as the salmon industry is the lifeblood of parts of my constituency. He referred to the money that had been given to Highlands and Islands Enterprise. That is for the restart scheme. When will the scheme start? The industry is waiting for the answer.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6388347+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C714092", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27231, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 487.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 487.0, "ID": 27231, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 501.0, "ContributionID": 714092, "EditedText": "During the open debate, there will be the usual four-minute time limit. It was reported to me during the lunch break that while the two deputies were in the chair two members not only exceeded their time but did not wind up and sit down when they were asked to do so. In fairness to other members, we cannot allow such behaviour. Therefore we are opening a black book. Those whose names are entered in the black book will find that next time they press their button their names will mysteriously appear at the bottom of the list. I hope that that will encourage fairness in the chamber.", "EditedTextHTML": "During the open debate, there will be the usual four-minute time limit. It was reported to me during the lunch break that while the two deputies were in the chair two members not only exceeded their time but did not wind up and sit down when they were asked to do so. In fairness to other members, we cannot allow such behaviour. Therefore we are opening a black book. Those whose names are entered in the black book will find that next time they press their button their names will mysteriously appear at the bottom of the list. I hope that that will encourage fairness in the chamber.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6388347+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1888E265P358C714087", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27231, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 487.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 487.0, "ID": 27231, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morgan, Alasdair", "ID": 1888, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Galloway and Upper Nithsdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morgan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alasdair Morgan (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 490.0, "ContributionID": 714087, "EditedText": "On a point of order. The convener of the Rural Affairs Committee has written to the Minister for Rural Affairs asking that a statement on the latest position on the ban on the export of beef be made before the Christmas recess. Has there been a request to make such a statement?", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. The convener of the Rural Affairs Committee has written to the Minister for Rural Affairs asking that a statement on the latest position on the ban on the export of beef be made before the Christmas recess. Has there been a request to make such a statement?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6388347+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1863E284P532C714093", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27231, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 487.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 487.0, "ID": 27231, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Cunningham, Roseanna", "ID": 1863, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Perth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Roseanna Cunningham", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Roseanna Cunningham (Perth) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 504.0, "ContributionID": 714093, "EditedText": "It is with a distinct sense of déjà vu that I stand here. Some of my comments today will be similar to those that I made last week. The bill was the second major piece of legislation that the Justice and Home Affairs Committee was required to deal with in a limited period. Once again, I record my appreciation of the work of members of the committee, only a handful of whom came from the legal background that might have made them more comfortable dealing with the issues that the bill raises. Indeed, those of us with a legal background were not much better off. There were times when I felt as if I were back in first-year conveyancing lectures—an experience that I had hoped to have long left behind me. Nevertheless, the committee members took on the responsibility of becoming informed. I hope that the report exemplifies that work that they all put in. Needless to say, my thanks must also go again to the clerks who shared the burden with us. We were required to produce two substantial reports in only a few weeks, and without the clerks, that would have been well-nigh impossible. This bill is not as controversial as the Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill, but that does not mean that the committee could deal with it less seriously. There were many issues of detail that required to be examined, which included points on which the Executive had not made up its mind. Issues concerning the effect of the time scale that was set for us are outlined in paragraphs 10 to 11 and 18 to 20 of the report. I do not propose to reiterate them, but the concerns that I expressed last week in the debate on adults with incapacity apply with the same force here. The committee comments on the interaction between this bill and other bills that are planned by the Executive, which could all be thought of as parts of a whole. We found it difficult to report on the principles of the Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill alone, when it became clear during our proceedings that those principles could not stand apart from those of the title conditions bill and the law of the tenement bill. In a sense, this is not a stand-alone bill, but we were obliged to behave as if it were. That created some difficulty for us and led to a degree of cynicism about the real, as opposed to the stated, reason for delaying the implementation of the bill. Members who have read the committee's report will know that it highlights one big issue of principle on which there was controversy, and a number of other points of detail on which there was contradictory evidence. The committee has made it clear that the bill is to be welcomed. We all agreed that sweeping away the anachronism of the feudal system was long overdue. It was difficult to see how else it could be brought about other than by outright abolition. It became clear, however, that although we were sweeping away one form of land ownership in Scotland, some organisations and commentators felt that a serious gap now existed. Evidence was submitted to us that there should continue to be a public interest in the new form of ownership. That submission was made on the basis of the argument that the Crown, apart from its position as paramount feudal superior, had been the guardian of the public interest until now. It is fair to say that, although many committee members had sympathy with the public interest argument, there was a degree of scepticism about accepting that the Crown had traditionally fulfilled that role. Even those who do not hold quite such robust views about the Crown's future role in our constitution as I do were nevertheless unsure whether that argument was valid. However, in the absence of any outright hostility to the bill, that was the major point of principle that we had to address. I hope that the way in which we have covered that point in paragraphs 12 to 17 of our report makes that argument clear, even to those coming new to the debate. At lunchtime, I saw for the first time a counsel's opinion on the generality of the argument. The document, which has today's date, is a brief preliminary outline opinion on the issue of paramount superiority. Had the committee had that information, it might have helped us to deal with the issue. The opinion is the work of Sir Crispin Agnew of Lochnaw QC. He states categorically: \"In Scotland the legal theory of landownership has been that the Crown owns all land for the benefit of the community of the realm and that the Crown grants out rights in that land to subjects, who hold that land under the Crown's paramount superiority or dominium eminens.\" He goes on to say that the first bill proposed by the Scottish Law Commission had a section saying that \"the abolition of the feudal system of land tenure shall be without prejudice to any other rights, privileges, benefits of or derived from the Crown by virtue of the paramount superiority\". He says that the present bill contains no such reservation and that, in his opinion, \"the draft Clauses would appear to have the effect of severing all connection between the land and any other rights, privileges, benefits of or derived from the paramount superiority.\" I will not read the whole opinion. I have not had a chance to read it in detail myself, but those parts caught my eye. The opinion would have been useful to the committee and might have encouraged us to couch some paragraphs of our report in a slightly different way. That is a caveat for those reading our report, and I shall circulate copies of the opinion to members as soon as possible.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is with a distinct sense of déjà vu that I stand here. Some of my comments today will be similar to those that I made last week. The bill was the second major piece of legislation that the Justice and Home Affairs Committee was required to deal with in a limited period.

Once again, I record my appreciation of the work of members of the committee, only a handful of whom came from the legal background that might have made them more comfortable dealing with the issues that the bill raises. Indeed, those of us with a legal background were not much better off. There were times when I felt as if I were back in first-year conveyancing lectures—an experience that I had hoped to have long left behind me.

Nevertheless, the committee members took on the responsibility of becoming informed. I hope that the report exemplifies that work that they all put in. Needless to say, my thanks must also go again to the clerks who shared the burden with us. We were required to produce two substantial reports in only a few weeks, and without the clerks, that would have been well-nigh impossible.

This bill is not as controversial as the Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill, but that does not mean that the committee could deal with it less seriously. There were many issues of detail that required to be examined, which included points on which the Executive had not made up its mind.

Issues concerning the effect of the time scale that was set for us are outlined in paragraphs 10 to 11 and 18 to 20 of the report. I do not propose to reiterate them, but the concerns that I expressed last week in the debate on adults with incapacity apply with the same force here.

The committee comments on the interaction between this bill and other bills that are planned by the Executive, which could all be thought of as parts of a whole. We found it difficult to report on the principles of the Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill alone, when it became clear during our proceedings that those principles could not stand apart from those of the title conditions bill and the law of the tenement bill. In a sense, this is not a stand-alone bill, but we were obliged to behave as if it were. That created some difficulty for us and led to a degree of cynicism about the real, as opposed to the stated, reason for delaying the implementation of the bill.

Members who have read the committee's report will know that it highlights one big issue of principle on which there was controversy, and a number of other points of detail on which there was contradictory evidence.

The committee has made it clear that the bill is to be welcomed. We all agreed that sweeping away the anachronism of the feudal system was long overdue. It was difficult to see how else it could be brought about other than by outright abolition.

It became clear, however, that although we were sweeping away one form of land ownership in Scotland, some organisations and commentators felt that a serious gap now existed. Evidence was submitted to us that there should continue to be a public interest in the new form of ownership. That submission was made on the basis of the argument that the Crown, apart from its position as paramount feudal superior, had been the guardian of the public interest until now.

It is fair to say that, although many committee members had sympathy with the public interest argument, there was a degree of scepticism about accepting that the Crown had traditionally fulfilled that role. Even those who do not hold quite such robust views about the Crown's future role in our constitution as I do were nevertheless unsure whether that argument was valid. However, in the absence of any outright hostility to the bill, that was the major point of principle that we had to address. I hope that the way in which we have covered that point in paragraphs 12 to 17 of our report makes that argument clear, even to those coming new to the debate.

At lunchtime, I saw for the first time a counsel's opinion on the generality of the argument. The document, which has today's date, is a brief preliminary outline opinion on the issue of paramount superiority. Had the committee had that information, it might have helped us to deal with the issue. The opinion is the work of Sir Crispin Agnew of Lochnaw QC. He states categorically:

\"In Scotland the legal theory of landownership has been that the Crown owns all land for the benefit of the community of the realm and that the Crown grants out rights in that land to subjects, who hold that land under the Crown's paramount superiority or dominium eminens.\"

He goes on to say that the first bill proposed by the Scottish Law Commission had a section saying that

\"the abolition of the feudal system of land tenure shall be without prejudice to any other rights, privileges, benefits of or derived from the Crown by virtue of the paramount superiority\".

He says that the present bill contains no such reservation and that, in his opinion,

\"the draft Clauses would appear to have the effect of severing all connection between the land and any other rights, privileges, benefits of or derived from the paramount superiority.\"

I will not read the whole opinion. I have not had a chance to read it in detail myself, but those parts caught my eye. The opinion would have been

useful to the committee and might have encouraged us to couch some paragraphs of our report in a slightly different way. That is a caveat for those reading our report, and I shall circulate copies of the opinion to members as soon as possible.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6388347+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C714150", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sitting Days", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27233, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 631.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 631.0, "ID": 27233, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 636.0, "ContributionID": 714150, "EditedText": "Yes.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6388347+00:00" }, { "ID": "C714160", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27234, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 650.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 650.0, "ID": 27234, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 658.0, "ContributionID": 714160, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6388347+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C714096", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27231, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 487.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 487.0, "ID": 27231, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 511.0, "ContributionID": 714096, "EditedText": "There is a welcome throughout the chamber for the bill, which seeks to sweep away an archaic and largely symbolic form of land tenure and replace it with a more modern and practical system. Having said that, I believe that the system has served us well over many years; it has brought controls and assisted in the development of our country in a way that has brought great benefit. However, it has served its purpose and it is time for it to go. Roseanna Cunningham mentioned the link between the Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill and the land reform bill. While I expect that there will be consensus on the bill today, I suspect that that consensus will not extend—in full, at least—to the land reform bill that she envisages. The Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill represents a long-awaited change. Its history could be said to have started with the Land Tenure Reform (Scotland) Act 1974. In 1991, under the Tories, a discussion paper on abolition of the feudal system was issued. In February this year, the Law Commission presented to Parliament a report on the abolition of the feudal system; the bill under discussion today is substantially the same as that contained in the Law Commission report. Some people might say that the bill is long overdue, but as I said, it is welcomed all round. However, the Parliament must take care when discussing the bill. We must ensure that the proposed reforms represent a real improvement on the present system and do not create greater problems of their own. The bill will transform the system of land tenure and will have a significant impact on business, conservation and conveyancing practice in Scotland. I quote from the Law Commission report: \"The feudal system of land tenure . . . has degenerated from a living system of land tenure with both good and bad features into something which, in the case of many but not all superiors, is little more than an instrument for extracting money.\" Abuses of the system happen. For example, in Prestwick, some residents received requests for payment of a significant sum to ensure blanket waivers for title deviations made over the years, prior even to the present occupants living in their homes. Wisely, the great majority of those residents ignored the requests; one or two, unfortunately, made the payments. That bad aspect of the system will disappear; under the new bill, there will be no means of enforcing such payments. It is ironic that local authorities are among those who exploit the existing burdens laws. I understand that Labour-controlled City of Edinburgh Council charges £50 for window consents and £200 for porches, while SNP- controlled Angus Council demands £60 for waivers. We should all take note of that. Comments were made about outstanding feu payments. Happily, outstanding feu payments have almost been cleared. It is interesting to note that the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors suggested that the formula that was set up in the 1970s was, perhaps, too generous for present times. The minister might want to examine that when he addresses those issues later. There will be introduction of feudal reform today and reform of title conditions and tenement law tomorrow. Following the publication of the bill, the Justice and Home Affairs Committee carried out its allotted task of pre-legislative scrutiny of the bill. That included hearing oral evidence from a fair number of people during several committee meetings. The committee's scrutiny also attracted a considerable number of written submissions. The value of the scrutiny procedure struck home when it became apparent to committee members that the bill was not a stand-alone bill. The Scottish Executive—on its second visit to the committee—acknowledged that there would be a title conditions bill and a law of the tenement bill. It appears that the former might play a part in setting the appointed day for enactment of the bill that we are debating today—one reason for leaving the bill open-ended. I noted the references that the Minister for Justice made to that in his comments. Perhaps a lesson that can be learned is that in future there should be more openness or clarity about the Executive's intentions when it presents such bills. The benefits of the present committee system have not been demonstrated. A number of representations have been made that seek the retention of the ultimate superiority of the Crown in a reformed feudal system. From a practical point of view, the Justice and Home Affairs Committee remains unconvinced of the merits of the arguments for that. There seems to be little point in extinguishing the powers of numerous mid-superiors only to retain nominal Crown superiority, especially as rights relating to the Crown prerogative—mineral rights, fishing rights and so on—are to be retained by the Crown in any event. When he addressed the Justice and Home Affairs Committee, Professor Robert Rennie commented: \"The Crown, as paramount superior, does not own the land for the people; the Crown owns it for the Crown.\"— Official Report, Justice and Home Affairs Committee, 9 November 1999; c 367. Professor Rennie also made clear his view that the Crown does not have rights over vassals and superiors and that any involvement in future in burdens of any kind would have to be legislated for. note Roseanna Cunningham's comments about the submission that was brought to her attention today. We must, perhaps, accept that the submission has come rather late for the Justice and Home Affairs Committee, but we are only at stage 1 of the bill. We are moving towards analysis of it and there will be time to take on board such submissions. Perhaps the discussions that we had in the committee have induced those who want to seek legal opinions to do so. That will be to everybody's benefit in the long term. The objective of Parliament must be to ensure that we get land reform legislation right. It is a complicated issue; Roseanna Cunningham mentioned that many of the committee members do not have the legal background that she and a couple of colleagues on the committee have. If the issue confuses them, how do the rest of us who are members of that committee feel? It seemed to me that the removal of burdens might make the transfer of houses easier for purchasers and for sellers. Disappointingly, Professor Rennie suggested that there would not, at the end of the day, be any reduction in conveyancing fees. The worst news was when he looked forward to future bills, which were mentioned earlier. He did not say that there would not be added charges for investigations into the implications of those bills. There was some concern on the Justice and Home Affairs Committee about commercial leases. At present, residential leases are limited to a maximum of 20 years, by the Land Tenure Reform (Scotland) Act 1974. The new bill does not affect that. However, there is no limit at present on the length of commercial leases. The bill proposes to limit the length of new commercial leases to 125 years. The minister suggested that he would be prepared to consider that area. Perhaps the figure of 125 years has been plucked out of the sky to create a debating point. In view of commercial interests and the way in which we want our economy to develop, perhaps we should widen the commercial lease. In so doing, we must consider legislation that has passed through Parliament more recently. Environmental legislation often entails the clearing up of land after use for various processes by manufacturers. That could be a consideration when companies are considering taking land on board under lease terms, if it was felt that the processes that they wanted to carry out could not meet environmental requirements at the end of the period. I welcome the fact that there will be the opportunity for neighbours and others to retain an interest in feudal burdens, which has helped neighbourhoods to develop in a consensual way over a period of time. It is important that neighbours should have a say in the developments that go on around them. However, there can be conflicting interests. One example is of someone, in Corstorphine, who wants to split up a large flat into a number of other residencies. Three of the neighbours accept that, but one does not. That one neighbour has become the feu superior and has put a block on the development. The 100 m rule probably means that that individual can continue that block once the bill is enacted. I want an assurance that such an issue would be passed on to the Lands Tribunal and fair decisions taken on that basis. In another situation, a farmer sold a plot of land and specifically determined that there should be no dogs in the development alongside, for the protection of his animals. He feels that the 100 m rule in the bill will remove his say and could cause his business difficulties. My time is running out, so I will finish by saying that many points in the bill can be queried. I believe that the Justice and Home Affairs Committee will need a considerable amount of time to examine the bill line by line. That will be in the interests of the bill, and I would like to think that the Executive will not make the committee meet false deadlines.", "EditedTextHTML": "There is a welcome throughout the chamber for the bill, which seeks to sweep away an archaic and largely symbolic form of land tenure and replace it with a more modern and practical system. Having said that, I believe that the system has served us well over many years; it has brought controls and assisted in the development of our country in a way that has brought great benefit. However, it has served its purpose and it is time for it to go.

Roseanna Cunningham mentioned the link between the Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill and the land reform bill. While I expect that there will be consensus on the bill today, I suspect that that consensus will not extend—in full, at least—to the land reform bill that she envisages.

The Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill represents a long-awaited change. Its history could be said to have started with the Land Tenure Reform (Scotland) Act 1974. In 1991, under the Tories, a discussion paper on abolition of the feudal system was issued. In February this year, the Law Commission presented to Parliament a report on the abolition of the feudal system; the bill under discussion today is substantially the same as that contained in the Law Commission report. Some people might say that the bill is long overdue, but as I said, it is welcomed all round.

However, the Parliament must take care when discussing the bill. We must ensure that the proposed reforms represent a real improvement on the present system and do not create greater problems of their own. The bill will transform the system of land tenure and will have a significant impact on business, conservation and conveyancing practice in Scotland. I quote from the Law Commission report:

\"The feudal system of land tenure . . . has degenerated from a living system of land tenure with both good and bad features into something which, in the case of many but not all superiors, is little more than an instrument for extracting money.\"

Abuses of the system happen. For example, in Prestwick, some residents received requests for payment of a significant sum to ensure blanket waivers for title deviations made over the years, prior even to the present occupants living in their homes. Wisely, the great majority of those residents ignored the requests; one or two, unfortunately, made the payments. That bad aspect of the system will disappear; under the new bill, there will be no means of enforcing such payments.

It is ironic that local authorities are among those who exploit the existing burdens laws. I understand that Labour-controlled City of Edinburgh Council charges £50 for window consents and £200 for porches, while SNP- controlled Angus Council demands £60 for waivers. We should all take note of that.

Comments were made about outstanding feu payments. Happily, outstanding feu payments have almost been cleared. It is interesting to note that the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors suggested that the formula that was set up in the 1970s was, perhaps, too generous for present times. The minister might want to examine that when he addresses those issues later.

There will be introduction of feudal reform today and reform of title conditions and tenement law tomorrow. Following the publication of the bill, the Justice and Home Affairs Committee carried out its allotted task of pre-legislative scrutiny of the bill. That included hearing oral evidence from a fair number of people during several committee meetings. The committee's scrutiny also attracted a considerable number of written submissions. The value of the scrutiny procedure struck home when it became apparent to committee members that the bill was not a stand-alone bill.

The Scottish Executive—on its second visit to the committee—acknowledged that there would be a title conditions bill and a law of the tenement bill. It appears that the former might play a part in setting the appointed day for enactment of the bill that we are debating today—one reason for leaving the bill open-ended. I noted the references that the Minister for Justice made to that in his comments.

Perhaps a lesson that can be learned is that in future there should be more openness or clarity about the Executive's intentions when it presents such bills. The benefits of the present committee system have not been demonstrated.

A number of representations have been made that seek the retention of the ultimate superiority of the Crown in a reformed feudal system. From a practical point of view, the Justice and Home Affairs Committee remains unconvinced of the merits of the arguments for that. There seems to be little point in extinguishing the powers of numerous mid-superiors only to retain nominal Crown superiority, especially as rights relating to the Crown prerogative—mineral rights, fishing rights and so on—are to be retained by the Crown in any event.

When he addressed the Justice and Home Affairs Committee, Professor Robert Rennie commented:

\"The Crown, as paramount superior, does not own the land for the people; the Crown owns it for the Crown.\"— [Official Report, Justice and Home Affairs Committee, 9 November 1999; c 367.]

Professor Rennie also made clear his view that the Crown does not have rights over vassals and superiors and that any involvement in future in burdens of any kind would have to be legislated for. note Roseanna Cunningham's comments about the submission that was brought to her attention today. We must, perhaps, accept that the submission has come rather late for the Justice and Home Affairs Committee, but we are only at stage 1 of the bill. We are moving towards analysis of it and there will be time to take on board such submissions. Perhaps the discussions that we had in the committee have induced those who want to seek legal opinions to do so. That will be to everybody's benefit in the long term. The objective of Parliament must be to ensure that we get land reform legislation right. It is a complicated issue; Roseanna Cunningham mentioned that many of the committee members do not have the legal background that she and a couple of colleagues on the committee have. If the issue confuses them, how do the rest of us who are members of that committee feel?

It seemed to me that the removal of burdens might make the transfer of houses easier for purchasers and for sellers. Disappointingly, Professor Rennie suggested that there would not, at the end of the day, be any reduction in conveyancing fees. The worst news was when he looked forward to future bills, which were mentioned earlier. He did not say that there would not be added charges for investigations into the implications of those bills.

There was some concern on the Justice and Home Affairs Committee about commercial leases. At present, residential leases are limited to a maximum of 20 years, by the Land Tenure Reform (Scotland) Act 1974. The new bill does not affect that. However, there is no limit at present on the length of commercial leases. The bill proposes to limit the length of new commercial leases to 125 years. The minister suggested that he would be prepared to consider that area. Perhaps the figure of 125 years has been plucked out of the sky to create a debating point.

In view of commercial interests and the way in which we want our economy to develop, perhaps we should widen the commercial lease. In so doing, we must consider legislation that has passed through Parliament more recently. Environmental legislation often entails the clearing up of land after use for various processes by manufacturers. That could be a consideration when companies are considering taking land on board under lease terms, if it was felt that the processes that they wanted to carry out could not meet environmental requirements at the end of the period.

I welcome the fact that there will be the opportunity for neighbours and others to retain an interest in feudal burdens, which has helped neighbourhoods to develop in a consensual way over a period of time. It is important that neighbours should have a say in the developments that go on around them. However, there can be conflicting interests.

One example is of someone, in Corstorphine, who wants to split up a large flat into a number of other residencies. Three of the neighbours accept that, but one does not. That one neighbour has become the feu superior and has put a block on

the development. The 100 m rule probably means that that individual can continue that block once the bill is enacted. I want an assurance that such an issue would be passed on to the Lands Tribunal and fair decisions taken on that basis.

In another situation, a farmer sold a plot of land and specifically determined that there should be no dogs in the development alongside, for the protection of his animals. He feels that the 100 m rule in the bill will remove his say and could cause his business difficulties.

My time is running out, so I will finish by saying that many points in the bill can be queried. I believe that the Justice and Home Affairs Committee will need a considerable amount of time to examine the bill line by line. That will be in the interests of the bill, and I would like to think that the Executive will not make the committee meet false deadlines.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6388347+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C714100", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27231, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 487.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 487.0, "ID": 27231, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Patricia Ferguson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 520.0, "ContributionID": 714100, "EditedText": "Before moving to the open part of the debate, I remind members that if they wish to speak, they should indicate it by pressing the request-to-speak button. There will be a four- minute time limit on speeches this afternoon.", "EditedTextHTML": "Before moving to the open part of the debate, I remind members that if they wish to speak, they should indicate it by pressing the request-to-speak button. There will be a four- minute time limit on speeches this afternoon.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6388347+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2188E70P92C714102", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27231, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 487.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 487.0, "ID": 27231, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harper, Robin", "ID": 2188, "PartyName": "Scottish Green Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Green", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robin Harper", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robin Harper (Lothians) (Green): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 526.0, "ContributionID": 714102, "EditedText": "I make no apologies for pursuing points that have already been raised by Roseanna Cunningham and expanded on by Christine Grahame. I welcome the fact that those members have said that they would like to pursue the debate in the Justice and Home Affairs Committee. Scotland needs feudal reform and I welcome it. However, I am concerned that the present principles of the bill appear to betray the public interest because of the impact on the role of the Scottish Crown. Our present system of land tenure in Scotland is based on the principle that all land is owned by the Crown and granted out to those that we call landowners. This is the dominium utile— have I pronounced that correctly, Christine?— which translates from the Latin as the use, rather than the possession, of the land. Of fundamental importance to our present constitutional settlement, the Crown is the core constitutional repository of the public interest. We feel that the principle embodied in the Crown and its public interest role must in some way be conserved. This bill appears to undermine or forget the interest of communities in their own land, and replace it with a system of absolute ownership. Land Reform Scotland has today written to all MSPs to express its concerns. The Scottish Land Reform Convention, which is the land reform civic forum representing unions, local government, churches and the voluntary sector, has also expressed concern. The convention's convener, Dr Alison Elliot, has said that we must make it clear that owning land carries with it unique responsibilities to other people in the future. It is not like owning a bicycle. Scottish Environment LINK, which is the umbrella body for the Scottish environmental bodies such as World Wildlife Fund, Royal Society for the Protection of Birds, the National Trust for Scotland, among others, is also concerned. I would like to quote Sir Crispin Agnew QC on the subject of the Scottish Law Commission: \"What the Commission do not appear to have considered is the crown's rights, not only in, but over all land, which derive from the paramount superiority and which can be exercised by the crown for the benefit of the community.\" Sir Crispin has also said:\"If absolute ownership to land is given by the proposed Act, then the legal basis on which that ownership can now be controlled may be lost.\" He was referring specifically—and I stress this point—to town and country planning and environmental regulation. I repeat—environmental regulation. Sir Kenneth Jupp MC, the retired High Court judge and an internationally respected lawyer with an interest in land law, has said that the proposed legislation would be a retrograde step that would be very difficult to rectify. In the face of such strongly argued and authoritative concern over this bill—concern that is coming from many sectors of Scottish civic society and beyond—will the minister reassure the chamber in the clearest terms, either today or in the future after taking advice from the Justice and Home Affairs Committee, that this bill is intended in principle to serve the public interest in the land of Scotland? Moreover, will he reassure the chamber that every effort will be made by the Executive during the ensuing stages of the bill to ensure that this public interest principle is contained in and made explicit in the provisions and terms of the bill?", "EditedTextHTML": "I make no apologies for pursuing points that have already been raised by Roseanna Cunningham and expanded on by Christine Grahame. I welcome the fact that those members have said that they would like to pursue the debate in the Justice and Home Affairs Committee.

Scotland needs feudal reform and I welcome it. However, I am concerned that the present principles of the bill appear to betray the public interest because of the impact on the role of the Scottish Crown. Our present system of land tenure in Scotland is based on the principle that all land is owned by the Crown and granted out to those that we call landowners. This is the dominium utile— have I pronounced that correctly, Christine?— which translates from the Latin as the use, rather than the possession, of the land.

Of fundamental importance to our present constitutional settlement, the Crown is the core constitutional repository of the public interest. We feel that the principle embodied in the Crown and its public interest role must in some way be conserved. This bill appears to undermine or forget the interest of communities in their own land, and replace it with a system of absolute ownership.

Land Reform Scotland has today written to all MSPs to express its concerns. The Scottish Land Reform Convention, which is the land reform civic forum representing unions, local government, churches and the voluntary sector, has also expressed concern. The convention's convener, Dr Alison Elliot, has said that we must make it clear that owning land carries with it unique responsibilities to other people in the future. It is not like owning a bicycle.

Scottish Environment LINK, which is the umbrella body for the Scottish environmental bodies such as World Wildlife Fund, Royal Society for the Protection of Birds, the National Trust for Scotland, among others, is also concerned.

I would like to quote Sir Crispin Agnew QC on the subject of the Scottish Law Commission:

\"What the Commission do not appear to have considered is the crown's rights, not only in, but over all land, which derive from the paramount superiority and which can be exercised by the crown for the benefit of the community.\"

Sir Crispin has also said:

\"If absolute ownership to land is given by the proposed Act, then the legal basis on which that ownership can now be controlled may be lost.\"

He was referring specifically—and I stress this point—to town and country planning and environmental regulation. I repeat—environmental regulation.

Sir Kenneth Jupp MC, the retired High Court judge and an internationally respected lawyer with an interest in land law, has said that the proposed

legislation would be a retrograde step that would be very difficult to rectify.

In the face of such strongly argued and authoritative concern over this bill—concern that is coming from many sectors of Scottish civic society and beyond—will the minister reassure the chamber in the clearest terms, either today or in the future after taking advice from the Justice and Home Affairs Committee, that this bill is intended in principle to serve the public interest in the land of Scotland? Moreover, will he reassure the chamber that every effort will be made by the Executive during the ensuing stages of the bill to ensure that this public interest principle is contained in and made explicit in the provisions and terms of the bill?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6388347+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1803E78P291C714103", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27231, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 487.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 487.0, "ID": 27231, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gillon, Karen", "ID": 1803, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Clydesdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Karen Gillon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Karen Gillon (Clydesdale) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 529.0, "ContributionID": 714103, "EditedText": "I am grateful for this opportunity both to listen to the contributions of my colleagues and to say a few words myself. Listening to some of the more complex matters surrounding this bill, and, in particular, listening to Jim Wallace and Roseanna Cunningham, has certainly helped to enlighten me, as a lay person. I welcome the bill, and I thank the Justice and Home Affairs Committee for the work that it has done so far on behalf of the Parliament in relation to this matter. The whole debate about land reform and land tenure is obviously very complex, but it is also very emotive. For me it is about a choice between the old Scotland and the new. It is about a Scotland that allows an unscrupulous landowner to squeeze as much cash as possible from tenants by archaic means or a Scotland that recognises the contribution that tenants make to an individual property and the area around it, and a Scotland that does not allow the insecure position of tenants to be used to the advantage of an often already wealthy landlord. It is about a Scotland that is ready to enter the new millennium free from the chains of oppression that have silently hung around the heads of far too many tenants in this country for far too long. I am glad that this debate is about a Parliament that is ready and willing to provide the focus to tackle an important issue that has been dithered over for far too long. Tackling the issues that affect people's lives will provide this Parliament and Scotland with focus and direction, which the bill and other aspects of the Parliament's work are now delivering. I am proud that the Parliament is willing to address the issue in such a forward- thinking manner. I am particularly interested in the issue of leasehold casualties, which, although not a feudal issue, has the potential to cause the affected tenants great financial hardship. There has been much mention of Brian Hamilton, who is the epitome of an unscrupulous landlord if ever there was one. The people of Clydesdale know only too well how they are affected by leasehold casualties and the feudal system. Some have lost their homes as a result; others have incurred considerable financial penalties. Although acknowledge that the issue of leasehold casualties is complex and might not be dealt with best in this bill, I would welcome some assurance that the Executive will give some attention to the issue in future.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful for this opportunity both to listen to the contributions of my colleagues and to say a few words myself. Listening to some of the more complex matters surrounding this bill, and, in particular, listening to Jim Wallace and Roseanna Cunningham, has certainly helped to enlighten me, as a lay person.

I welcome the bill, and I thank the Justice and Home Affairs Committee for the work that it has done so far on behalf of the Parliament in relation to this matter. The whole debate about land reform and land tenure is obviously very complex, but it is also very emotive. For me it is about a choice between the old Scotland and the new.

It is about a Scotland that allows an unscrupulous landowner to squeeze as much cash as possible from tenants by archaic means or a Scotland that recognises the contribution that tenants make to an individual property and the area around it, and a Scotland that does not allow the insecure position of tenants to be used to the advantage of an often already wealthy landlord. It is about a Scotland that is ready to enter the new millennium free from the chains of oppression that have silently hung around the heads of far too many tenants in this country for far too long.

I am glad that this debate is about a Parliament that is ready and willing to provide the focus to tackle an important issue that has been dithered over for far too long. Tackling the issues that affect people's lives will provide this Parliament and Scotland with focus and direction, which the bill and other aspects of the Parliament's work are now delivering. I am proud that the Parliament is willing to address the issue in such a forward- thinking manner.

I am particularly interested in the issue of leasehold casualties, which, although not a feudal issue, has the potential to cause the affected tenants great financial hardship. There has been much mention of Brian Hamilton, who is the epitome of an unscrupulous landlord if ever there was one. The people of Clydesdale know only too well how they are affected by leasehold casualties and the feudal system. Some have lost their homes as a result; others have incurred considerable financial penalties. Although acknowledge that the issue of leasehold casualties is complex and might not be dealt with best in this bill, I would welcome some assurance that the Executive will give some attention to the issue in future.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6388347+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1876E194P490C714106", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27231, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 487.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 487.0, "ID": 27231, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Marwick, Tricia", "ID": 1876, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tricia Marwick", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tricia Marwick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 536.0, "ContributionID": 714106, "EditedText": "I am particularly grateful to all the witnesses who gave their time to present evidence to the Justice and Home Affairs Committee. That evidence helped me to understand some of the bill's technicalities—or at least I thought that it had until today. The prospect of the minister's summing-up gives me a frisson of pleasure and I look forward to hearing what he has to say. I agree with the Scottish Law Commission that the feudal system is \"an anachronism which needlessly complicates the law\"and that\"abolition is an essential first step in any more general programme of land reform\". Terms such as \"superiors\" and \"vassals\" have no place in a modern system of land ownership. However, I wish to raise some matters which I hope that the minister will address today and which the committee should consider carefully at the next stage of the bill. During evidence sessions, it became clear that no research had been done to find out just how many properties are still subject to feudal duties and how many people are affected. It is reasonable to assume that many occupants are elderly and are living on fixed incomes. I am concerned that superiors who have not bothered to collect in the past will now demand payment of arrears. I would welcome a statement from the minister that the issue will be investigated to ensure that elderly people in particular, who have not asked for this legislation, will not be placed under financial penalties that they simply cannot meet. As the minister said, commercial companies have made many representations about section 65 of the bill, which prohibits a lease of more than 125 years. I share the Executive's concern that, without a statutory limit, such companies could introduce leasehold arrangements every bit as restrictive as the current feudal system. However, although I am mindful that we should not create disincentives to investment, I am not persuaded by the companies' argument that any such restrictive arrangements would be a consequence of a statutory limit of a 125-year lease. Roseanna Cunningham and Christine Grahame touched on my final point about the need to retain some public interest in land. Some witnesses argued that the Crown's role as paramount superior creates a public interest. There have been real difficulties in considering this bill in isolation from other parts of the Executive's legislative programme. The minister may be able to give members some indication of where, if anywhere, the public interest will lie. Following the submission today, I have no doubt that the Justice and Home Affairs Committee will consider the matter in much greater detail. The bill is long overdue—probably by a couple of hundred years. I agree with the general principle of the bill, but look forward to the minister's response to the points that I have raised.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am particularly grateful to all the witnesses who gave their time to present evidence to the Justice and Home Affairs Committee. That evidence helped me to understand some of the bill's technicalities—or at least I thought that it had until today. The prospect of the minister's summing-up gives me a frisson of pleasure and I look forward to hearing what he has to say.

I agree with the Scottish Law Commission that the feudal system is

\"an anachronism which needlessly complicates the law\"

and that

\"abolition is an essential first step in any more general programme of land reform\".

Terms such as \"superiors\" and \"vassals\" have no place in a modern system of land ownership.

However, I wish to raise some matters which I hope that the minister will address today and which the committee should consider carefully at the next stage of the bill. During evidence

sessions, it became clear that no research had been done to find out just how many properties are still subject to feudal duties and how many people are affected. It is reasonable to assume that many occupants are elderly and are living on fixed incomes. I am concerned that superiors who have not bothered to collect in the past will now demand payment of arrears. I would welcome a statement from the minister that the issue will be investigated to ensure that elderly people in particular, who have not asked for this legislation, will not be placed under financial penalties that they simply cannot meet.

As the minister said, commercial companies have made many representations about section 65 of the bill, which prohibits a lease of more than 125 years. I share the Executive's concern that, without a statutory limit, such companies could introduce leasehold arrangements every bit as restrictive as the current feudal system. However, although I am mindful that we should not create disincentives to investment, I am not persuaded by the companies' argument that any such restrictive arrangements would be a consequence of a statutory limit of a 125-year lease.

Roseanna Cunningham and Christine Grahame touched on my final point about the need to retain some public interest in land. Some witnesses argued that the Crown's role as paramount superior creates a public interest. There have been real difficulties in considering this bill in isolation from other parts of the Executive's legislative programme. The minister may be able to give members some indication of where, if anywhere, the public interest will lie. Following the submission today, I have no doubt that the Justice and Home Affairs Committee will consider the matter in much greater detail.

The bill is long overdue—probably by a couple of hundred years. I agree with the general principle of the bill, but look forward to the minister's response to the points that I have raised.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6388347+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2122E6P19C714108", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27231, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 487.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 487.0, "ID": 27231, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay", "ID": 2122, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lyndsay McIntosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Lyndsay McIntosh (Central Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 542.0, "ContributionID": 714108, "EditedText": "At the risk of ending up in your little black book, Presiding Officer, you will forgive me if I race through this speech. I thank the Scottish Executive for introducing the bill, but, having heard that the consideration of title conditions and the law of the tenement is ahead of us, I have to confess that it is like being given a jigsaw without seeing the picture or knowing the dimensions. Take, for example, the limitation in section 65 on long-term leases. The reference in that section to 125 years has been mentioned several times. Until very recently, the only thing that the figure 125 meant to me was a fast train. The figure can only be considered arbitrary, because it takes no account of individual circumstance or of a logical method for the determination of the period of tenure. Why are we being asked today to scrutinise legislation that does not take into account the distinct differences between rural and urban lifestyles and the individual requirements that those respective communities have? The restriction on the right to impose a feudal burden on land sold for development to 100 m from an existing domestic property does not bear much scrutiny. Again, the figure has been determined arbitrarily. In an urban area, 100 m might seem a reasonable distance. Within that distance, it may be in the clear interests of an existing property or, indeed, of the neighbourhood, to impose restrictions on the height, size or even colour of new developments in order to preserve the locale's identity. In a rural area, 100 m is not a long way when the nearest neighbour might be a mile or so from the doorstep. In such instances, it is important that existing landowners can impose a feudal burden on land sold for development to preserve their own and, more important, the countryside's identity. That would be in the interests of all Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "At the risk of ending up in your little black book, Presiding Officer, you will forgive me if I race through this speech.

I thank the Scottish Executive for introducing the bill, but, having heard that the consideration of title conditions and the law of the tenement is ahead of us, I have to confess that it is like being given a jigsaw without seeing the picture or knowing the dimensions. Take, for example, the limitation in section 65 on long-term leases. The reference in that section to 125 years has been mentioned several times. Until very recently, the only thing that the figure 125 meant to me was a fast train. The figure can only be considered arbitrary, because it takes no account of individual circumstance or of a logical method for the determination of the period of tenure.

Why are we being asked today to scrutinise legislation that does not take into account the distinct differences between rural and urban lifestyles and the individual requirements that those respective communities have? The restriction on the right to impose a feudal burden on land sold for development to 100 m from an existing domestic property does not bear much scrutiny. Again, the figure has been determined arbitrarily.

In an urban area, 100 m might seem a reasonable distance. Within that distance, it may be in the clear interests of an existing property or, indeed, of the neighbourhood, to impose restrictions on the height, size or even colour of new developments in order to preserve the locale's identity. In a rural area, 100 m is not a long way when the nearest neighbour might be a mile or so from the doorstep. In such instances, it is important that existing landowners can impose a feudal burden on land sold for development to preserve their own and, more important, the countryside's identity. That would be in the interests of all Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6388347+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1888E265P358C714109", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27231, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 487.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 487.0, "ID": 27231, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morgan, Alasdair", "ID": 1888, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Galloway and Upper Nithsdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morgan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alasdair Morgan (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 544.0, "ContributionID": 714109, "EditedText": "Is preserving the countryside's identity not why we have local councils and planning committees?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is preserving the countryside's identity not why we have local councils and planning committees?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6388347+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2207E94P262C714118", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27231, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 487.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 487.0, "ID": 27231, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Barrie, Scott", "ID": 2207, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dunfermline West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Scott Barrie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Scott Barrie (Dunfermline West) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 565.0, "ContributionID": 714118, "EditedText": "Like many members of the Justice and Home Affairs Committee, I believed that the feudal system of land tenure was something of an anachronism but I did not know that it was as important as I now understand it to be. I thought that it was the preserve of rural communities and that reform involved a bit of tidying up, which would not affect the vast majority of the population of Scotland. I now realise that that is not the case and that this bill is long overdue—the legislation should have been passed a long time ago. As we have heard, the Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill is one of a series of bills that will reform the laws of property in Scotland. The Executive proposes to introduce other bills that will deal with title conditions, the law of tenement and leasehold casualties. The feudal system of land tenure in Scotland reflects its historic origins, when land was granted by the monarch in return for military or other services. In turn, land was granted to others, which created the existing hierarchy of structure and which is reflected in the terminology, with words such as \"superior\" and \"vassal\". Obligations that were placed on vassals have evolved into the current system of payments or feuduties. Major reform of the system was made about 30 years ago, when legislation made it impossible to create new feuduties and provided a system for the redemption of existing feuduties. There is no doubt that the law needs a further, fundamental overhaul. Its presumptions and even its language represent a bygone age—a preindustrial age. However, when the committee was taking evidence on the bill, it was often stated that not all aspects of the feudal system were—or are—bad. It has been said that not all feudal burdens are oppressive or unreasonable. Currently, burdens allow someone who is selling land next to his own to retain some control over the way in which that land is used, to prevent loss of amenity. The bill proposes to create new burdens. The Minister for Justice has stated that the proposed 100 m rule was somewhat arbitrary, but that the line had to be drawn somewhere. The bill goes further than the recommendations of the Scottish Law Commission, as it allows a superior to agree with a vassal that a burden on a neighbouring property should be retained, or allows a superior to apply to the Lands Tribunal for Scotland to retain the burden. As we have heard, the bill proposes to end all superiority rights, including those of the Crown. The Justice and Home Affairs Committee took evidence that suggested that the Crown, acting as paramount superior, could act as the guardian of the public interest, as Tricia Marwick has stated. It was further suggested that the abolition of the paramount supremacy of the Crown would mean that the public interest in land would somehow be lost. I agree with members of that committee that there should be some sort of public interest in land. However, retention of the Crown as paramount superior is not the solution. The bill prohibits the execution of commercial leases for more than 125 years. As the law stands, such leases could be as long as 999 years. Like the 100 m rule, the 125-year rule is arbitrary. However, without a time limit, property owners could establish some sort of feudalism. In evidence, we heard that some commercial developers might not develop their property if they did not get a lease of a certain length. I would have thought that any developer would be able to establish a rate of return if a lease was as long as 125 years. This bill is long overdue. It is to be welcomed that, early next century, the feudal system of land ownership in Scotland will be over. I agree with the principles of the bill.", "EditedTextHTML": "Like many members of the Justice and Home Affairs Committee, I believed that the feudal system of land tenure was something of an anachronism but I did not know that it was as important as I now understand it to be. I thought that it was the preserve of rural communities and that reform involved a bit of tidying up, which would not affect the vast majority of the population of Scotland. I now realise that that is not the case and that this bill is long overdue—the legislation should have been passed a long time ago.

As we have heard, the Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill is one of a series of bills that will reform the laws of property in Scotland. The Executive proposes to introduce other bills that will deal with title conditions, the law of tenement and leasehold casualties. The feudal system of land tenure in Scotland reflects its historic origins, when land was granted by the monarch in return for military or other services. In turn, land was granted to others, which created the existing hierarchy of structure and which is reflected in the terminology, with words such as \"superior\" and \"vassal\".

Obligations that were placed on vassals have evolved into the current system of payments or feuduties. Major reform of the system was made about 30 years ago, when legislation made it impossible to create new feuduties and provided a system for the redemption of existing feuduties. There is no doubt that the law needs a further, fundamental overhaul. Its presumptions and even its language represent a bygone age—a preindustrial age.

However, when the committee was taking evidence on the bill, it was often stated that not all aspects of the feudal system were—or are—bad. It has been said that not all feudal burdens are oppressive or unreasonable. Currently, burdens allow someone who is selling land next to his own to retain some control over the way in which that land is used, to prevent loss of amenity.

The bill proposes to create new burdens. The Minister for Justice has stated that the proposed 100 m rule was somewhat arbitrary, but that the line had to be drawn somewhere. The bill goes further than the recommendations of the Scottish Law Commission, as it allows a superior to agree with a vassal that a burden on a neighbouring property should be retained, or allows a superior to apply to the Lands Tribunal for Scotland to retain the burden.

As we have heard, the bill proposes to end all superiority rights, including those of the Crown. The Justice and Home Affairs Committee took evidence that suggested that the Crown, acting as paramount superior, could act as the guardian of the public interest, as Tricia Marwick has stated. It was further suggested that the abolition of the paramount supremacy of the Crown would mean that the public interest in land would somehow be lost. I agree with members of that committee that there should be some sort of public interest in land. However, retention of the Crown as paramount superior is not the solution.

The bill prohibits the execution of commercial leases for more than 125 years. As the law stands, such leases could be as long as 999 years. Like the 100 m rule, the 125-year rule is arbitrary. However, without a time limit, property owners could establish some sort of feudalism. In evidence, we heard that some commercial developers might not develop their property if they did not get a lease of a certain length. I would have thought that any developer would be able to establish a rate of return if a lease was as long as 125 years.

This bill is long overdue. It is to be welcomed that, early next century, the feudal system of land ownership in Scotland will be over. I agree with the principles of the bill.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6388347+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1888E265P358C714134", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27231, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 487.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 487.0, "ID": 27231, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morgan, Alasdair", "ID": 1888, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Galloway and Upper Nithsdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morgan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alasdair Morgan (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 605.0, "ContributionID": 714134, "EditedText": "Some of us who were asked to speak in this debate thought initially that we had drawn a short straw. We wondered what we had done in our past lives to deserve this, especially when we saw the word \"burden\" in the bill. We wondered whether this was another such burden—real or otherwise.Those of us who made the mistake of picking up the bill before picking up the explanatory notes had the thought that we had been stitched up confirmed. When we saw phrases such as \"dominant tenement\" we wondered whether that was the medieval equivalent of high-rise flats. \"Disentailment on the appointed day\" sounded particularly nasty and made me think of the removal of specified risk material. We were glad— on further perusal—to see that thirlage was to be abolished. Anyone still being forced to take his or her corn to a particular mill will be grateful when this bill is passed. As David McLetchie said, the south-west of Scotland will never be the same again after we sweep away the kindly tenants of Lochmaben. I have a vision of those harmless descendants of the good King Robert sitting in their cottages reading The People's Friend and Francis Gay's column in the Sunday Post being snuffed out by the onset of the new millennium. As the minister said—they have to go. Robert Brown said that the bill is interesting historically. The list of statutes that it will repeal includes several that were passed by previous Parliaments of Scotland, and some that date from before the union of the Crowns. That, perhaps, brings home to us how much in need of review some of the legislation is. Let us be clear that this is a serious matter and that reform is long overdue. Jim Wallace talked about this being detailed legislation and the difficulty of finding time at Westminster for such legislation. Robert Brown made the same point. It is therefore a pity that the list of devolved subjects is not much longer, so that we can extend that valuable principle to deal with other matters, which we are not allowed to deal with at the moment. Roseanna Cunningham referred to the tight time scale under which the committees have to work. We will have to address that problem, which could be worsened if the membership of the Parliament is reduced in accordance with the Scotland Act 1998. That would certainly have implications for our committees. More important in the short term, Roseanna Cunningham raised the issue of the paramount superiority of the Crown, to which other members have alluded. We heard about a legal opinion, which was received only today. We look forward to further discussions on that issue, because it is certainly complex. There does not seem to be unanimity on it among lawyers—as if there ever is. Roseanna Cunningham, Christine Grahame and Robin Harper mentioned the bill's omission of the public interest as a concept. I would welcome comments on that, as it is a valuable concept that we should include in the bill if at all possible. Several members picked up on the issue of a restriction on the number of claims for compensation for feus. That argument seems to be worth pursuing. Phil Gallie referred to some abuses that would be removed by the bill. He also referred, as did his leader, to the waiver of charges levied by councils. Whether we should criticise councils for levying charges, given their other financial difficulties, is a moot point. Both Phil Gallie and David McLetchie felt free to mention that, but perhaps the only reason there are no Tory councils levying such charges is that there are no Tory councils. Brian Monteith spoke affectionately of feudalism. One could almost picture him using the same arguments in defence of the hereditary House of Lords; the arguments seemed almost identical. However, it seems strange that the Tories should defend a tradition that is Norman French in origin, given their antipathy to our continental neighbours.", "EditedTextHTML": "Some of us who were asked to speak in this debate thought initially that we had drawn a short straw. We wondered what we had done in our past lives to deserve this, especially when we saw the word \"burden\" in the bill. We wondered whether this was another such

burden—real or otherwise.

Those of us who made the mistake of picking up the bill before picking up the explanatory notes had the thought that we had been stitched up confirmed. When we saw phrases such as \"dominant tenement\" we wondered whether that was the medieval equivalent of high-rise flats. \"Disentailment on the appointed day\" sounded particularly nasty and made me think of the removal of specified risk material. We were glad— on further perusal—to see that thirlage was to be abolished. Anyone still being forced to take his or her corn to a particular mill will be grateful when this bill is passed.

As David McLetchie said, the south-west of Scotland will never be the same again after we sweep away the kindly tenants of Lochmaben. I have a vision of those harmless descendants of the good King Robert sitting in their cottages reading The People's Friend and Francis Gay's column in the Sunday Post being snuffed out by the onset of the new millennium. As the minister said—they have to go.

Robert Brown said that the bill is interesting historically. The list of statutes that it will repeal includes several that were passed by previous Parliaments of Scotland, and some that date from before the union of the Crowns. That, perhaps, brings home to us how much in need of review some of the legislation is.

Let us be clear that this is a serious matter and that reform is long overdue. Jim Wallace talked about this being detailed legislation and the difficulty of finding time at Westminster for such legislation. Robert Brown made the same point. It is therefore a pity that the list of devolved subjects is not much longer, so that we can extend that valuable principle to deal with other matters, which we are not allowed to deal with at the moment.

Roseanna Cunningham referred to the tight time scale under which the committees have to work. We will have to address that problem, which could be worsened if the membership of the Parliament is reduced in accordance with the Scotland Act 1998. That would certainly have implications for our committees.

More important in the short term, Roseanna Cunningham raised the issue of the paramount superiority of the Crown, to which other members have alluded. We heard about a legal opinion, which was received only today. We look forward to further discussions on that issue, because it is certainly complex. There does not seem to be unanimity on it among lawyers—as if there ever is.

Roseanna Cunningham, Christine Grahame and Robin Harper mentioned the bill's omission of the public interest as a concept. I would welcome comments on that, as it is a valuable concept that we should include in the bill if at all possible.

Several members picked up on the issue of a restriction on the number of claims for compensation for feus. That argument seems to be worth pursuing.

Phil Gallie referred to some abuses that would be removed by the bill. He also referred, as did his leader, to the waiver of charges levied by councils. Whether we should criticise councils for levying charges, given their other financial difficulties, is a moot point. Both Phil Gallie and David McLetchie felt free to mention that, but perhaps the only reason there are no Tory councils levying such charges is that there are no Tory councils.

Brian Monteith spoke affectionately of feudalism. One could almost picture him using the same arguments in defence of the hereditary House of Lords; the arguments seemed almost identical. However, it seems strange that the Tories should defend a tradition that is Norman French in origin, given their antipathy to our continental neighbours.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6388347+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C714130", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27231, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 487.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 487.0, "ID": 27231, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 596.0, "ContributionID": 714130, "EditedText": "Local authorities' imposing those charges on top of charges for building warrants and planning consents is a clear abuse of the system. Edinburgh's council seems to be using the system as a means of controlling alleged anti-social behaviour. One of the first cases to be referred to me as an MSP concerned a dispute among neighbours in Wester Hailes. I discovered that a housing officer from the council had written to one of the parties in the following terms: \"I am aware that you have bought your house, however the Council remains your feu superior and if necessary I can instruct our lawyer to irritate the feu and I will seek recovery of your property.\" Stripped of legalese that means, \"We can throw you out of your home without a penny in compensation unless you behave.\"", "EditedTextHTML": "Local authorities' imposing those charges on top of charges for building warrants and planning consents is a clear abuse of the system. Edinburgh's council seems to be using the system as a means of controlling alleged anti-social behaviour. One of the first cases to be referred to me as an MSP concerned a dispute among neighbours in Wester Hailes. I discovered that a housing officer from the council had written to one of the parties in the following terms:

\"I am aware that you have bought your house, however the Council remains your feu superior and if necessary I can instruct our lawyer to irritate the feu and I will seek recovery of your property.\"

Stripped of legalese that means, \"We can throw you out of your home without a penny in compensation unless you behave.\"

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6388347+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C714141", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27231, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 487.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 487.0, "ID": 27231, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Angus MacKay: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 620.0, "ContributionID": 714141, "EditedText": "That should be more than enough time to deal with the complexities of the bill. I have listened with substantial interest—to my astonishment—to the contributions of MSPs from all parts of the chamber. Some MSPs spoke with drawn looks on their faces; others with great enthusiasm. I would like to put on record my thanks to the Scottish Law Commission and anybody else who was involved in the drafting of what seems to be an inordinately long and complex bill. I am sure that nobody in the chamber would disagree with the suggestion that the feudal system should be abolished and replaced with a system of simple ownership of land. Nevertheless, a substantial number of matters of detail were raised in the debate today and it is right that there should continue to be further debate. In its stage 1 report on the bill, the Justice and Home Affairs Committee welcomed the Executive's willingness, expressed in the policy memorandum, to indicate areas on which we had not yet reached a final view. In the same spirit, the Executive continues to welcome constructive suggestions that are intended to improve the final bill. I am sure that members will agree that this Parliament should produce high-quality legislation and, particularly in this area, get the legislation right. The Minister for Justice has mentioned some areas where we intend to lodge amendments to improve the bill. Christine Grahame said that strong coffee would be required by anyone sitting down to read the bill or any of the attendant briefings. I think that something stronger than coffee would be required. I was entertained and amazed by the contributions of Mr McLetchie and Mr Monteith. I almost got the impression that if Scotland still had legislation allowing slavery and transportation, it would be our duty to defend that legislation in the interests of Scottish history.", "EditedTextHTML": "That should be more than enough time to deal with the complexities of the bill.

I have listened with substantial interest—to my astonishment—to the contributions of MSPs from all parts of the chamber. Some MSPs spoke with drawn looks on their faces; others with great enthusiasm. I would like to put on record my thanks to the Scottish Law Commission and anybody else who was involved in the drafting of what seems to be an inordinately long and complex bill.

I am sure that nobody in the chamber would disagree with the suggestion that the feudal system should be abolished and replaced with a system of simple ownership of land. Nevertheless, a substantial number of matters of detail were raised in the debate today and it is right that there should continue to be further debate.

In its stage 1 report on the bill, the Justice and Home Affairs Committee welcomed the Executive's willingness, expressed in the policy memorandum, to indicate areas on which we had not yet reached a final view. In the same spirit, the Executive continues to welcome constructive suggestions that are intended to improve the final bill. I am sure that members will agree that this Parliament should produce high-quality legislation and, particularly in this area, get the legislation right. The Minister for Justice has mentioned some areas where we intend to lodge amendments to improve the bill.

Christine Grahame said that strong coffee would be required by anyone sitting down to read the bill or any of the attendant briefings. I think that something stronger than coffee would be required.

I was entertained and amazed by the contributions of Mr McLetchie and Mr Monteith. I almost got the impression that if Scotland still had legislation allowing slavery and transportation, it would be our duty to defend that legislation in the interests of Scottish history.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6388347+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C714163", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27234, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 650.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 650.0, "ID": 27234, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 664.0, "ContributionID": 714163, "EditedText": "We cannot have a point of order in the middle of a division. I will take it as soon as I have announced the result.", "EditedTextHTML": "We cannot have a point of order in the middle of a division. I will take it as soon as I have announced the result.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6388347+00:00" }, { "ID": "C714166", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27234, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 650.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 650.0, "ID": 27234, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 670.0, "ContributionID": 714166, "EditedText": "FOR Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP) Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP) White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP) Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP) AGAINST Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Johnston, Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)(LD)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)

AGAINST

Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Johnston, Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)
(LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5138024+00:00" }, { "ID": "C714175", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27234, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 650.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 650.0, "ID": 27234, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 686.0, "ContributionID": 714175, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5138024+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C714178", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27234, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 650.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 650.0, "ID": 27234, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 691.0, "ContributionID": 714178, "EditedText": "The result of the division is: For 64, Against 50, Abstentions 0.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result of the division is: For 64, Against 50, Abstentions 0.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5138024+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C714197", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fife Rail Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27235, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 705.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 705.0, "ID": 27235, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Keith Raffan (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 726.0, "ContributionID": 714197, "EditedText": "I will be brief, as I do not want to repeat what every other member has said, although I could do so easily, as virtually every word of my speech has already been said. I pay tribute to both Tricia Marwick and Helen Eadie for obtaining this debate. Regional members are not known for receiving as much constituency correspondence as constituency members receive, but I have had more correspondence on this issue than on any other. I went through that correspondence this afternoon and noted complaints of cancellations, overcrowding, delays, no new rolling stock, stations with little shelter— such as South Gyle—and less seating. There has been a particular deterioration since the autumn, aggravated, of course, by the delayed introduction of the newer rolling stock, which, as Tricia Marwick rightly noted, will amount to the cascading of castoffs freed up by the introduction of faster trains on the Glasgow to Edinburgh line. The Fife rail link is a crucial commuter route, but ScotRail is not treating it as such. As Iain Smith said, only 1 per cent of all journeys made in Fife are train journeys. We must strengthen the role of rail in Fife, leading towards an integrated transport system. I do not think that anyone disagrees with the minister's integrated transport strategy. However, we want to see her strategy implemented. I commend the minister for sending me last week what I think was the first e-mail I have ever received from a minister. It was on the subject of the Forth road bridge, about which she had just attended meetings, and the measures to reduce congestion on the bridge. On Monday, I was briefed by the Fife police constabulary, which emphasised to me the crucial need for a reduction in congestion on the Forth road bridge. That will not be achieved until there is a decent rail service. Nick Johnston was right to mention the importance of reopening the Stirling- Alloa-Dunfermline link, as that will help by removing freight from the Forth rail bridge and so freeing up the bridge for passenger services. Railtrack could have made more infrastructural improvements if it had not directed resources to the urgent renovation of the Forth rail bridge. Those renovations may have been necessary; I am not in a position to make that judgment. The fact is that Railtrack diverted resources that could otherwise have been used to fund infrastructural improvements on the Fife line. The reopening of the Stirling-Alloa-Dunfermline line as a passenger link would also be of some advantage. I have covered some of the points that I wanted to make. I endorse what all other members have said in this debate. This is a cross-party motion. As a fairly regular speaker in this chamber, I do not think that I have ever heard the same views being expressed so strongly by members from all parties. The views that we are expressing are the views of the people of Fife. There is a need for urgent action by both ScotRail and the Scottish Executive.", "EditedTextHTML": "

I will be brief, as I do not want to repeat what every other member has said, although I could do so easily, as virtually every word of my speech has already been said.

I pay tribute to both Tricia Marwick and Helen Eadie for obtaining this debate. Regional members are not known for receiving as much constituency correspondence as constituency members receive, but I have had more correspondence on this issue than on any other. I went through that correspondence this afternoon and noted complaints of cancellations, overcrowding, delays, no new rolling stock, stations with little shelter— such as South Gyle—and less seating. There has been a particular deterioration since the autumn, aggravated, of course, by the delayed introduction of the newer rolling stock, which, as Tricia Marwick rightly noted, will amount to the cascading of castoffs freed up by the introduction of faster trains on the Glasgow to Edinburgh line.

The Fife rail link is a crucial commuter route, but ScotRail is not treating it as such. As Iain Smith said, only 1 per cent of all journeys made in Fife are train journeys. We must strengthen the role of rail in Fife, leading towards an integrated transport system. I do not think that anyone disagrees with the minister's integrated transport strategy. However, we want to see her strategy implemented.

I commend the minister for sending me last week what I think was the first e-mail I have ever received from a minister. It was on the subject of the Forth road bridge, about which she had just attended meetings, and the measures to reduce congestion on the bridge.

On Monday, I was briefed by the Fife police constabulary, which emphasised to me the crucial need for a reduction in congestion on the Forth road bridge. That will not be achieved until there is a decent rail service. Nick Johnston was right to mention the importance of reopening the Stirling- Alloa-Dunfermline link, as that will help by removing freight from the Forth rail bridge and so freeing up the bridge for passenger services. Railtrack could have made more infrastructural improvements if it had not directed resources to the urgent renovation of the Forth rail bridge. Those renovations may have been necessary; I am not in a position to make that judgment. The fact is that Railtrack diverted resources that could otherwise have been used to fund infrastructural improvements on the Fife line. The reopening of the Stirling-Alloa-Dunfermline line as a passenger link would also be of some advantage.

I have covered some of the points that I wanted to make. I endorse what all other members have said in this debate. This is a cross-party motion. As a fairly regular speaker in this chamber, I do not think that I have ever heard the same views being expressed so strongly by members from all

parties. The views that we are expressing are the views of the people of Fife. There is a need for urgent action by both ScotRail and the Scottish Executive.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5138024+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C714199", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fife Rail Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27235, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 705.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 705.0, "ID": 27235, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan (Glasgow) (SSP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 731.0, "ContributionID": 714199, "EditedText": "I ask the minister to take on board the fact that, although I am not opposed to her reference to unanimity throughout the chamber, I do not agree with what Mr Nick Johnston said about the success of privatisation. I hope that my presence here does not in any way suggest that I support privatisation. Privatisation is one of the problems in the delivery of the rail service.", "EditedTextHTML": "I ask the minister to take on board the fact that, although I am not opposed to her reference to unanimity throughout the chamber, I do not agree with what Mr Nick Johnston said about the success of privatisation. I hope that my presence here does not in any way suggest that I support privatisation. Privatisation is one of the problems in the delivery of the rail service.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5138024+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2207E94P262C714201", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fife Rail Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27235, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 705.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 705.0, "ID": 27235, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Barrie, Scott", "ID": 2207, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dunfermline West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Scott Barrie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Scott Barrie (Dunfermline West) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 735.0, "ContributionID": 714201, "EditedText": "It is important to emphasise that this is not just about ScotRail, although ScotRail is the major carrier of people from Fife to Edinburgh. Other companies include GNER and Virgin. A lot of the problems at Inverkeithing station, in particular, occur when trains that are owned by those companies do not arrive either from Dundee or Aberdeen. People who had expected to catch those trains are left stranded and ScotRail is expected to take up the excess. Therefore, although ScotRail has many shortcomings, GNER and Virgin must share the responsibility.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is important to emphasise that this is not just about ScotRail, although ScotRail is the major carrier of people from Fife to Edinburgh. Other companies include GNER and Virgin. A lot of the problems at Inverkeithing station, in particular, occur when trains that are owned by those companies do not arrive either from Dundee or Aberdeen. People who had expected to catch those trains are left stranded and ScotRail is expected to take up the excess. Therefore, although ScotRail has many shortcomings, GNER and Virgin must share the responsibility.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5138024+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1876E194P490C714203", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fife Rail Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27235, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 705.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 705.0, "ID": 27235, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Marwick, Tricia", "ID": 1876, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tricia Marwick", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tricia Marwick: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 739.0, "ContributionID": 714203, "EditedText": "In Fife, our problem is that the level of service that we get is not reflected in ScotRail's figures. The appalling nature of the service in Fife is hidden because ScotRail also runs services in Glasgow, Falkirk and so on. would like ScotRail to carry out a survey, particularly on the peak-hour trains from 7 o'clock to 9.30 in the morning, and from 4 o'clock to 7.30 at night, and to measure the effectiveness of that service. If ScotRail does that, we will get a better service in Fife. At the moment the failings are hidden because ScotRail prefers it that way.", "EditedTextHTML": "In Fife, our problem is that the level of service that we get is not reflected in ScotRail's figures. The appalling nature of the service in Fife is hidden because ScotRail also runs services in Glasgow, Falkirk and so on. would like ScotRail to carry out a survey, particularly on the peak-hour trains from 7 o'clock to 9.30 in the morning, and from 4 o'clock to 7.30 at night, and to measure the effectiveness of that service. If ScotRail does that, we will get a better service in Fife. At the moment the failings are hidden because ScotRail prefers it that way.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5138024+00:00" }, { "ID": "C714208", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fife Rail Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27235, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 705.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 705.0, "ID": 27235, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 749.0, "ContributionID": 714208, "EditedText": "Meeting closed at 17:47.", "EditedTextHTML": "Meeting closed at 17:47.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5138024+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C714026", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 364.0, "ContributionID": 714026, "EditedText": "This has been an interesting morning. I will begin my speech by mentioning some of the issues that have been raised by the Finance Committee. I am sorry that Mike Watson, the convener, is not present to hear me compliment the committee on the report that was published yesterday. I also wish to compliment warmly the committee's clerks for being able to arrange so speedily a meeting with the minister yesterday and for producing a report that adds meaningfully to the debate. I welcome the minister's commitment, which was made earlier today, to provide further detail of a more disaggregated nature and a greater specificity to each of the subject committees at stage 1 of the consideration of the budget. I am glad that, at last, we have managed to extract from the minister—albeit somewhat grudgingly—a commitment to provide information in real terms as well as in cash terms. That is recorded in the Finance Committee's report. I am sorry that it has taken so long to produce that report, and I am sorry that it took the publication of the Executive's glossy document, which does not include a real-terms figure anywhere, for us to get there. The Finance Committee yesterday agreed that some of the presentation of information in that document, in cash terms, could be thought to be misleading. I firmly take that view. I shall give one example of that from the spending plans document that the minister has published. In that document, the minister says: \"Planned health spending will increase from £5076 million in 1999-2000 to £5558 million by 2001-02.\" He also says:\"This fulfils our commitment to increase NHS spending substantially in real terms each year.\" If I did not look closely enough, that paragraph would leave me with the impression that the real- terms increase was around £500 million. In fact, the real-terms increase is only £200 million. The text of the document is very misleading in the way in which the figures are presented. The minister's agreement with that fact is welcome.", "EditedTextHTML": "This has been an interesting morning. I will begin my speech by mentioning some of the issues that

have been raised by the Finance Committee. I am sorry that Mike Watson, the convener, is not present to hear me compliment the committee on the report that was published yesterday. I also wish to compliment warmly the committee's clerks for being able to arrange so speedily a meeting with the minister yesterday and for producing a report that adds meaningfully to the debate.

I welcome the minister's commitment, which was made earlier today, to provide further detail of a more disaggregated nature and a greater specificity to each of the subject committees at stage 1 of the consideration of the budget. I am glad that, at last, we have managed to extract from the minister—albeit somewhat grudgingly—a commitment to provide information in real terms as well as in cash terms. That is recorded in the Finance Committee's report.

I am sorry that it has taken so long to produce that report, and I am sorry that it took the publication of the Executive's glossy document, which does not include a real-terms figure anywhere, for us to get there. The Finance Committee yesterday agreed that some of the presentation of information in that document, in cash terms, could be thought to be misleading. I firmly take that view.

I shall give one example of that from the spending plans document that the minister has published. In that document, the minister says:

\"Planned health spending will increase from £5076 million in 1999-2000 to £5558 million by 2001-02.\"

He also says:

\"This fulfils our commitment to increase NHS spending substantially in real terms each year.\"

If I did not look closely enough, that paragraph would leave me with the impression that the real- terms increase was around £500 million. In fact, the real-terms increase is only £200 million. The text of the document is very misleading in the way in which the figures are presented. The minister's agreement with that fact is welcome.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:24:23.7026612+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1857E136P222C714097", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27231, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 487.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 487.0, "ID": 27231, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeill, Pauline", "ID": 1857, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Kelvin" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Pauline McNeill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Pauline McNeill (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 514.0, "ContributionID": 714097, "EditedText": "It is almost beyond belief that in this day and age we still have laws that refer to vassals and superiors. Throughout the years we have had some attempts at reform, but never the determination or opportunity to abolish the system once and for all. I have received some letters on the subject of feudal tenure and I have read some critical reports about how the reforms are weak or flawed. We should get one thing straight before we begin. This is not a reform, as Jim Wallace said earlier; this is about abolition—hence the title of the bill. Of course, we will retain one or two useful characteristics of the old system, but the fundamental aspects of the forthcoming bill will do away with feudal law for ever. The abolition of feudalism will pave the way for further legislation to modernise land ownership in Scotland. We will find ways to ensure that it is done in the interests of all Scots, not just an elite minority of wealthy landowners. We do not have to abolish feudalism because it is old law but because it places burdens and restrictions on all those who think that they have outright ownership of their land but find that there is someone lurking in the background who has the ultimate say on aspects of development, with a personal right to receive payments in order to give consent to regional development. Many ordinary people have bought their homes thinking that they had single ownership of their house and the land that it stands on, yet find— perhaps many years later when they decide to build an extension—that they need the permission of another person to alter their house and that that person can charge thousands of pounds, in some cases, for that permission. Brian Hamilton, the most notorious feudal superior, has used his superiority rights to exploit the system to make a profit, ruining many lives in the process.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is almost beyond belief that in this day and age we still have laws that refer to vassals and superiors. Throughout the years we have had some attempts at reform, but never the determination or opportunity to abolish the system once and for all.

I have received some letters on the subject of feudal tenure and I have read some critical reports about how the reforms are weak or flawed. We should get one thing straight before we begin. This is not a reform, as Jim Wallace said earlier; this is about abolition—hence the title of the bill. Of course, we will retain one or two useful characteristics of the old system, but the fundamental aspects of the forthcoming bill will do away with feudal law for ever. The abolition of feudalism will pave the way for further legislation to modernise land ownership in Scotland. We will find ways to ensure that it is done in the interests of all Scots, not just an elite minority of wealthy landowners.

We do not have to abolish feudalism because it is old law but because it places burdens and restrictions on all those who think that they have outright ownership of their land but find that there is someone lurking in the background who has the ultimate say on aspects of development, with a personal right to receive payments in order to give consent to regional development.

Many ordinary people have bought their homes thinking that they had single ownership of their house and the land that it stands on, yet find— perhaps many years later when they decide to build an extension—that they need the permission of another person to alter their house and that that person can charge thousands of pounds, in some cases, for that permission. Brian Hamilton, the most notorious feudal superior, has used his superiority rights to exploit the system to make a profit, ruining many lives in the process.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:26:39.873439+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1857E136P222C714099", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27231, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 487.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 487.0, "ID": 27231, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeill, Pauline", "ID": 1857, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Kelvin" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Pauline McNeill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Pauline McNeill: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 518.0, "ContributionID": 714099, "EditedText": "No, I will not. It is not right for people to be unaware that feudal superiors might be lurking in the background. We will abolish that sort of secrecy when the bill becomes an act. There are 75 sections and 11 schedules to deal with when considering the bill, which relates to a complex area of Scots law. We have heard that the bill is much the same as the draft provided by the Scottish Law Commission and only departs from it in a few ways. One such way is on the matter of neighbour burdens: someone selling land will be allowed to retain some control over that land, to prevent the loss of an amenity. The principle is an important one and should be examined further in committee. We should try to determine whether the 100 m rule is practical. The Executive has stated that it has an open mind on the matter. A controversial area has been the Crown's conceptual role as the ultimate feudal superior. Land Reform Scotland told the Justice and Home Affairs Committee that section 56 of the bill, which deals with the prerogative powers of the Crown, is ambiguous and should specify that the Crown's rights will be abolished only when they are shared with other superiors. Roseanna Cunningham and Phil Gallie have told the chamber that the Justice and Home Affairs Committee listened to the groups that told us that the Crown should be retained as paramount superior in order to retain some public interest in land. However, having listened to those groups, we still believe that that is not the way to retain public interest in land. To quote Professor Rennie for the second time this afternoon: \"It makes no sense to abolish the feudal structure and retain the paramount superiority of the Crown. If that happens, we will not have abolished the feudal system.\"— Official Report, Justice and Home Affairs Committee, 9 November 1999; c 366. The Crown acts in the public interest through public authorities, the planning system and the public law system, in relation to the regulation and the use of land. I agree that we must find other ways to ensure that the public interest is well served. We have already begun to do that in other pieces of legislation dealing with access to land, the community right to buy and the Scottish outdoor access code. Interestingly, that is the area on which I have received most correspondence from those who do not want people from cities roaming around all over the countryside. I believe that we have a foundation on which we can build other pieces of legislation that will legitimately act in the public interest. Members heard from Jim Wallace this afternoon that the appointed day will be two years after the royal assent, which is quite a long period. As he has stated, that is because there is other related legislation and because of the complexities of abolishing the feudal system. There are issues that need to be resolved in that time, not least relating to feudal redemption. Members will have heard this afternoon that the Justice and Home Affairs Committee is concerned about the length of the period before the bill comes into force. There is still scope for considering this further, as there is an issue to do with Brian Hamilton and other superiors not capitalising on that two-year period, and making unjust calls on their rights to enforce feudal burdens. We have to further consider the detail of that. It is important that the bill talks about feuduties and other types of duty. In the west of Scotland in particular, there are other duties, including grounds annual. They are small amounts of money, but none the less will be swept away by the abolition of feudalism. There are two aspects to feuduty: one concerns arrears and how they will be paid back, while the second concerns how compensation will be paid to the superior. We know from Scots law, and indeed from European law, that the issue of compensation to superiors for the loss of their rights is one that we are legally bound to address. We have to pay some attention to the detail of what we are doing here. The Executive has said that it will consider the issue of those who are due to pay less than £100 and whether the instalment period could be increased. Although compensation only affects about 10 per cent of the population, the Parliament has to be mindful that if we are going to compensate superiors, and ask people to pay those duties, the duties should be fair and reasonable. People on low incomes, particularly the elderly, should not be disadvantaged by the payment of those duties, which may be heavy. It has been said this afternoon that there are other matters that are separate but related to the feudal system and are confusing to the public. One of those is the concept of leasehold casualties. While it is not an issue for feudal tenure itself, it has caused a bit of concern. Over the past few months, we have heard that steps will be taken effectively to abolish leasehold casualties. Again, Mr Hamilton appears to be making a killing from this loophole in the law. He was awarded £94,000 by the courts and Grampian Regional Council, when the latter lost an appeal over a long-disused school and schoolhouse. He took over the leasehold interest, with the intention of collecting a long-neglected leasehold casualty payment. That is wrong and is an issue that has to be addressed. There are many important land issues in the Parliament, not least the slow change from the old register of sasines to the new land register. We must build on the foundations that we are creating today, and in the months ahead, when we abolish the feudal system. We should ensure that land ownership in Scotland is transparent and clear-cut, and that ordinary people can go to the land register and find out who owns a piece of land and who has interests in it. I believe that by the year 2003 we will have made land ownership transparent.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I will not. It is not right for people to be unaware that feudal superiors might be lurking in the background. We will abolish that sort of secrecy when the bill becomes an act.

There are 75 sections and 11 schedules to deal with when considering the bill, which relates to a complex area of Scots law. We have heard that the bill is much the same as the draft provided by the Scottish Law Commission and only departs from it in a few ways. One such way is on the matter of neighbour burdens: someone selling land will be allowed to retain some control over that land, to prevent the loss of an amenity. The principle is an important one and should be examined further in committee. We should try to determine whether the 100 m rule is practical. The Executive has stated that it has an open mind on the matter.

A controversial area has been the Crown's conceptual role as the ultimate feudal superior. Land Reform Scotland told the Justice and Home Affairs Committee that section 56 of the bill, which deals with the prerogative powers of the Crown, is ambiguous and should specify that the Crown's rights will be abolished only when they are shared with other superiors.

Roseanna Cunningham and Phil Gallie have told the chamber that the Justice and Home Affairs Committee listened to the groups that told us that the Crown should be retained as paramount superior in order to retain some public interest in land. However, having listened to those groups, we still believe that that is not the way to retain public interest in land. To quote Professor Rennie for the second time this afternoon:

\"It makes no sense to abolish the feudal structure and retain the paramount superiority of the Crown. If that happens, we will not have abolished the feudal system.\"— [Official Report, Justice and Home Affairs Committee, 9 November 1999; c 366.]

The Crown acts in the public interest through public authorities, the planning system and the public law system, in relation to the regulation and the use of land.

I agree that we must find other ways to ensure that the public interest is well served. We have already begun to do that in other pieces of legislation dealing with access to land, the community right to buy and the Scottish outdoor access code. Interestingly, that is the area on

which I have received most correspondence from those who do not want people from cities roaming around all over the countryside. I believe that we have a foundation on which we can build other pieces of legislation that will legitimately act in the public interest.

Members heard from Jim Wallace this afternoon that the appointed day will be two years after the royal assent, which is quite a long period. As he has stated, that is because there is other related legislation and because of the complexities of abolishing the feudal system. There are issues that need to be resolved in that time, not least relating to feudal redemption.

Members will have heard this afternoon that the Justice and Home Affairs Committee is concerned about the length of the period before the bill comes into force. There is still scope for considering this further, as there is an issue to do with Brian Hamilton and other superiors not capitalising on that two-year period, and making unjust calls on their rights to enforce feudal burdens. We have to further consider the detail of that.

It is important that the bill talks about feuduties and other types of duty. In the west of Scotland in particular, there are other duties, including grounds annual. They are small amounts of money, but none the less will be swept away by the abolition of feudalism. There are two aspects to feuduty: one concerns arrears and how they will be paid back, while the second concerns how compensation will be paid to the superior. We know from Scots law, and indeed from European law, that the issue of compensation to superiors for the loss of their rights is one that we are legally bound to address. We have to pay some attention to the detail of what we are doing here. The Executive has said that it will consider the issue of those who are due to pay less than £100 and whether the instalment period could be increased.

Although compensation only affects about 10 per cent of the population, the Parliament has to be mindful that if we are going to compensate superiors, and ask people to pay those duties, the duties should be fair and reasonable. People on low incomes, particularly the elderly, should not be disadvantaged by the payment of those duties, which may be heavy.

It has been said this afternoon that there are other matters that are separate but related to the feudal system and are confusing to the public. One of those is the concept of leasehold casualties. While it is not an issue for feudal tenure itself, it has caused a bit of concern. Over the past few months, we have heard that steps will be taken effectively to abolish leasehold casualties. Again, Mr Hamilton appears to be making a killing from this loophole in the law. He was awarded £94,000 by the courts and Grampian Regional Council, when the latter lost an appeal over a long-disused school and schoolhouse. He took over the leasehold interest, with the intention of collecting a long-neglected leasehold casualty payment. That is wrong and is an issue that has to be addressed.

There are many important land issues in the Parliament, not least the slow change from the old register of sasines to the new land register. We must build on the foundations that we are creating today, and in the months ahead, when we abolish the feudal system. We should ensure that land ownership in Scotland is transparent and clear-cut, and that ordinary people can go to the land register and find out who owns a piece of land and who has interests in it. I believe that by the year 2003 we will have made land ownership transparent.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:26:39.889062+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1857E136P222C714115", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27231, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 487.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 487.0, "ID": 27231, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeill, Pauline", "ID": 1857, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Kelvin" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Pauline McNeill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Pauline McNeill: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 558.0, "ContributionID": 714115, "EditedText": "I hoped that Fiona Hyslop would get to the point and wondered when she would mention feudal tenure. I seek your ruling, Presiding Officer, on whether her speech was strictly relevant to this debate. I do not think that the minister can be asked to address points that are relevant to another debate.", "EditedTextHTML": "I hoped that Fiona Hyslop would get to the point and wondered when she would mention feudal tenure. I seek your ruling, Presiding Officer, on whether her speech was strictly relevant to this debate. I do not think that the minister can be asked to address points that are relevant to another debate.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:26:39.889062+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C713938", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 176.0, "ContributionID": 713938, "EditedText": "Give way. Give way.", "EditedTextHTML": "Give way. Give way.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:22:26.8814208+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C713878", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 54.0, "ContributionID": 713878, "EditedText": "I wish to take the minister back to his point about stage 1 and the information to be made available to subject committees. I welcome the language that he is using, but will he be in a position to offer subject committees much more detailed information—in terms of numbers and the subject areas and programme heads covered by them—than for the level 2 figures? For example, would he be prepared to provide a couple more levels of detail to give subject committees a better feel for what lies within the substantial numbers contained in his consultation document?", "EditedTextHTML": "I wish to take the minister back to his point about stage 1 and the information to be made available to subject committees. I welcome the language that he is using, but will he be in a position to offer subject committees much more detailed information—in terms of numbers and the subject areas and programme heads covered by them—than for the level 2 figures? For example, would he be prepared to provide a couple more levels of detail to give subject committees a better feel for what lies within the substantial numbers contained in his consultation document?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:21:23.9742649+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C713888", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 74.0, "ContributionID": 713888, "EditedText": "The past two years?", "EditedTextHTML": "The past two years?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:21:23.9742649+00:00" }, { "ID": "C714158", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27234, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 650.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 650.0, "ID": 27234, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 655.0, "ContributionID": 714158, "EditedText": "That the Parliament agrees the arrangements for the regulation of Cross-Party Groups in the Scottish Parliament set out in the annex to the Second Report of the Standards Committee and that these should apply with immediate effect.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament agrees the arrangements for the regulation of Cross-Party Groups in the Scottish Parliament set out in the annex to the Second Report of the Standards Committee and that these should apply with immediate effect.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:00:08.217535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1888E265P358C714136", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27231, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 487.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 487.0, "ID": 27231, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morgan, Alasdair", "ID": 1888, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Galloway and Upper Nithsdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morgan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alasdair Morgan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 609.0, "ContributionID": 714136, "EditedText": "Yes, but I have no antipathy towards our continental neighbours. We also know, in the context of Bruce and Wallace, where the Monteiths were on one occasion. Phil Gallie also mentioned the maximum length of non-residential leaseholds. He referred to some objections, but I need to be convinced that we must have planning horizons of greater than 125 years. In my experience, most commercial enterprises have planning horizons that are far too short rather than far too long. I am not sure how much time we are allowed in this debate.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes, but I have no antipathy towards our continental neighbours. We also know, in the context of Bruce and Wallace, where the Monteiths were on one occasion.

Phil Gallie also mentioned the maximum length of non-residential leaseholds. He referred to some objections, but I need to be convinced that we must have planning horizons of greater than 125 years. In my experience, most commercial enterprises have planning horizons that are far too short rather than far too long. I am not sure how much time we are allowed in this debate.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:00:07.3113101+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C714122", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27231, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 487.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 487.0, "ID": 27231, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fergus Ewing (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 577.0, "ContributionID": 714122, "EditedText": "I should declare an interest, as I am a practising solicitor. I say practising, as few people have accused solicitors of being perfect— certainly not in my case. It is the Parliament's extremely difficult task to make this legislation perfect. I have found several imperfections, which I will address in the hope that we might gain some answers from the Executive—I very much look forward to that. The Minister for Justice described the 100 m rule as arbitrary, but it is more than arbitrary— there is a danger that we will set up a form of legal apartheid between urban and rural Scotland. As Lyndsay McIntosh and others pointed out, almost all rural Scotland lies within 100 m of feudal estates. Excluding Inverness, Nairn and Fort William, most of my constituency, and most of rural Scotland, will fall within that 100 m line. From where does one measure the 100 m? It is measured not from the laird's castle, but from any habitation or permanent building that is owned by the feudal superior. The effect of this bill might be, \"The feudal system is dead; long live the feudal system in rural Scotland.\" I hope that all of us—with one or two exceptions—believe that that is not what we want to achieve. Therefore, I hope that the 100 m rule will be greatly restricted, as I do not know what continuing interest a feudal superior would have to enforce restrictions in an area within which he or she does not live. That would be unfair. The essence of what we are trying to do is not to remove nomenclature—to get rid of the feudal names \"vassal\" and \"superior\", odious though they may be—but to remove the dead hand of unnecessary control. Brian Monteith is quite wrong—the feudal system has been entirely replaced by town and country planning. I am not an unqualified fan of that system, but it is absurd none the less to have two systems, and town and country planning provides a much more modern model. Section 20 goes to the heart of the matter—the circumstances in which an owner can go to the Lands Tribunal to ask for a variation or discharge of land obligations. Such are the conditions that one has to ask permission to install a toilet in one's house or to build a conservatory or extension, and pay between £1,000 and £1,500 for the privilege. Allan Wilson highlighted that problem well in his comments about the odious Charles Fforde. If the systems of making payments in exchange for minutes of waiver are perpetuated, as I believe this bill will allow, the bill will fail Scotland. I serve on the Subordinate Legislation Committee. Service on that committee has been compared to watching paint dry as an exciting diversion, but committee members have pointed out that section 20 is a Henry VIII clause—it will allow the amendment of primary legislation by subordinate legislation. I am pleased that, at stage 2, the Executive will address the circumstances in which section 20 will apply. If the Executive does not do that, we will be doing Scotland a grave disservice. I am sorry that the Executive has not taken the opportunity to get rid of feuduty once and for all. It is an entirely artificial property right. Believe it or not, there are four things that one can do to a feuduty: pay it, redeem it, allocate it or apportion it.", "EditedTextHTML": "I should declare an interest, as I am a practising solicitor. I say practising, as few people have accused solicitors of being perfect— certainly not in my case. It is the Parliament's extremely difficult task to make this legislation perfect. I have found several imperfections, which I will address in the hope that we might gain some answers from the Executive—I very much look forward to that.

The Minister for Justice described the 100 m rule as arbitrary, but it is more than arbitrary— there is a danger that we will set up a form of legal apartheid between urban and rural Scotland. As Lyndsay McIntosh and others pointed out, almost all rural Scotland lies within 100 m of feudal estates. Excluding Inverness, Nairn and Fort William, most of my constituency, and most of rural Scotland, will fall within that 100 m line. From where does one measure the 100 m? It is

measured not from the laird's castle, but from any habitation or permanent building that is owned by the feudal superior.

The effect of this bill might be, \"The feudal system is dead; long live the feudal system in rural Scotland.\" I hope that all of us—with one or two exceptions—believe that that is not what we want to achieve. Therefore, I hope that the 100 m rule will be greatly restricted, as I do not know what continuing interest a feudal superior would have to enforce restrictions in an area within which he or she does not live. That would be unfair.

The essence of what we are trying to do is not to remove nomenclature—to get rid of the feudal names \"vassal\" and \"superior\", odious though they may be—but to remove the dead hand of unnecessary control. Brian Monteith is quite wrong—the feudal system has been entirely replaced by town and country planning. I am not an unqualified fan of that system, but it is absurd none the less to have two systems, and town and country planning provides a much more modern model.

Section 20 goes to the heart of the matter—the circumstances in which an owner can go to the Lands Tribunal to ask for a variation or discharge of land obligations. Such are the conditions that one has to ask permission to install a toilet in one's house or to build a conservatory or extension, and pay between £1,000 and £1,500 for the privilege. Allan Wilson highlighted that problem well in his comments about the odious Charles Fforde. If the systems of making payments in exchange for minutes of waiver are perpetuated, as I believe this bill will allow, the bill will fail Scotland.

I serve on the Subordinate Legislation Committee. Service on that committee has been compared to watching paint dry as an exciting diversion, but committee members have pointed out that section 20 is a Henry VIII clause—it will allow the amendment of primary legislation by subordinate legislation. I am pleased that, at stage 2, the Executive will address the circumstances in which section 20 will apply. If the Executive does not do that, we will be doing Scotland a grave disservice.

I am sorry that the Executive has not taken the opportunity to get rid of feuduty once and for all. It is an entirely artificial property right. Believe it or not, there are four things that one can do to a feuduty: pay it, redeem it, allocate it or apportion it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:01:03.9549326+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C714202", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fife Rail Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27235, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 705.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 705.0, "ID": 27235, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 737.0, "ContributionID": 714202, "EditedText": "I used the term companies advisedly. The problem is not with only one company. People read the Official Report of the debates that we have here and so the message will come across loud and clear. I expect that every rail company will read the Official Report of this debate to find out which members have contributed and to read the points that we have made. This is therefore a useful debate. It is very much in ScotRail's interests in particular—because of its franchise—for it to read the Official Report and listen to what we have been saying. That company is number 2 in the UK—behind only the Isle of Wight Railway Co— which is a position that it will want to retain. I do not think that it would want to slip down the league of rail companies, particularly given the observations that members have made on some of the other rail companies. That would dent its pride, but also hit its pockets and those of its shareholders. There are very compelling reasons, based on self-interest, for ScotRail to want to improve its service. ScotRail is also a net beneficiary by several million pounds a year from incentive payments that it receives from the shadow strategic rail authority, because historically it has exceeded its punctuality and reliability targets across most of the Scottish network. The situation in Fife is not one that the company will want to allow to continue. The contract that governs the ScotRail franchise guarantees £1.3 billion of public funding for the seven years of the franchise. In 1998-99 alone, public funding helped to support 2,000 services a day, providing 59 million passenger journeys over the year. Money is going into the rail service; we need that money to be matched by decent services. In Scotland, we spend just over £200 million. For that, we want to get secure investment that is based on a contractual commitment to increase the quality and level of services. That is linked to the amount of money that goes to Railtrack in the form of access charges. Under the terms of its licence, which is the responsibility of the Office of the Rail Regulator, Railtrack is obligated to invest to improve the rail network. If we are to have an efficient railway that meets the needs of the customers, whom all members here represent, Railtrack must increase the investment that it currently plans to make. There is some evidence that benefits are beginning to come through—Nick Johnston said that I would probably want to refer to one or two of them. Increased expenditure is coming through on other routes—the Edinburgh-Falkirk-Glasgow and the Aberdeen-Glasgow-Edinburgh routes. As members have pointed out, that is intended to free up other routes for refurbishment, including the Fife line. We should expect faster, more comfortable trains with increased seating capacity, to improve what is currently a substandard service. People would not get those improvements if the Government were not underwriting them. The challenge is to ensure that they are of the right quality and the right standard. That is a very good objective. Part of the problem is that ScotRail's commitment to improving services has been let down by the inability of suppliers to meet delivery dates, as Tricia Marwick mentioned. That is the consequence of having a trainbuilding industry that, after privatisation, received virtually no orders for new trains. Now huge numbers of trains are being ordered and the industry has not been able to cope. We will have to ensure that that is tackled, because it is not acceptable for Fife commuters to pay the price. We know that investment is only part of our toolkit for improving performance and for ensuring that the railways meet passengers' needs. The UK transport bill that is being considered at Westminster will enhance the powers of the strategic rail authority, which will mean a more effective strategy for Britain's railways. It will give this Parliament and Scottish ministers the powers to direct and guide the strategic rail authority for the services that are currently operated by ScotRail. Those powers are coming to us at a critical time in the development of rail services in Scotland. This is a time of expansion. The experiences of people in Fife are due partly to failures in the system, but partly to the fact that people want to use the trains rather than to drive and to have to dictate their letters while driving—I am sure that that was a slip of the tongue by Nick Johnston. We want to make it easier for people to make that choice. My hope is that today's debate will put rail services firmly on the agenda and let people know that the Parliament is committed to improving the quality of rail services. Sir Alastair Morton from the strategic rail authority has made it very clear that the performance of the train-operating companies that bid for franchise replacements will be a major consideration when those bids are assessed. The performance of rail companies now will affect the extent to which they run rail services in the future. They all know that, and that is critical.", "EditedTextHTML": "I used the term companies advisedly. The problem is not with only one company.

People read the Official Report of the debates that we have here and so the message will come across loud and clear. I expect that every rail company will read the Official Report of this debate to find out which members have contributed and to read the points that we have made. This is therefore a useful debate.

It is very much in ScotRail's interests in particular—because of its franchise—for it to read the Official Report and listen to what we have been saying. That company is number 2 in the UK—behind only the Isle of Wight Railway Co— which is a position that it will want to retain. I do not think that it would want to slip down the league of rail companies, particularly given the observations that members have made on some of the other rail companies. That would dent its pride, but also hit its pockets and those of its shareholders. There are very compelling reasons, based on self-interest, for ScotRail to want to improve its service.

ScotRail is also a net beneficiary by several million pounds a year from incentive payments that it receives from the shadow strategic rail authority, because historically it has exceeded its punctuality and reliability targets across most of the Scottish network. The situation in Fife is not one that the company will want to allow to continue.

The contract that governs the ScotRail franchise guarantees £1.3 billion of public funding for the seven years of the franchise. In 1998-99 alone, public funding helped to support 2,000 services a day, providing 59 million passenger journeys over the year. Money is going into the rail service; we need that money to be matched by decent services. In Scotland, we spend just over £200 million. For that, we want to get secure investment that is based on a contractual commitment to increase the quality and level of services.

That is linked to the amount of money that goes to Railtrack in the form of access charges. Under the terms of its licence, which is the responsibility of the Office of the Rail Regulator, Railtrack is obligated to invest to improve the rail network. If we are to have an efficient railway that meets the

needs of the customers, whom all members here represent, Railtrack must increase the investment that it currently plans to make.

There is some evidence that benefits are beginning to come through—Nick Johnston said that I would probably want to refer to one or two of them. Increased expenditure is coming through on other routes—the Edinburgh-Falkirk-Glasgow and the Aberdeen-Glasgow-Edinburgh routes. As members have pointed out, that is intended to free up other routes for refurbishment, including the Fife line. We should expect faster, more comfortable trains with increased seating capacity, to improve what is currently a substandard service. People would not get those improvements if the Government were not underwriting them. The challenge is to ensure that they are of the right quality and the right standard. That is a very good objective.

Part of the problem is that ScotRail's commitment to improving services has been let down by the inability of suppliers to meet delivery dates, as Tricia Marwick mentioned. That is the consequence of having a trainbuilding industry that, after privatisation, received virtually no orders for new trains. Now huge numbers of trains are being ordered and the industry has not been able to cope. We will have to ensure that that is tackled, because it is not acceptable for Fife commuters to pay the price.

We know that investment is only part of our toolkit for improving performance and for ensuring that the railways meet passengers' needs. The UK transport bill that is being considered at Westminster will enhance the powers of the strategic rail authority, which will mean a more effective strategy for Britain's railways. It will give this Parliament and Scottish ministers the powers to direct and guide the strategic rail authority for the services that are currently operated by ScotRail.

Those powers are coming to us at a critical time in the development of rail services in Scotland. This is a time of expansion. The experiences of people in Fife are due partly to failures in the system, but partly to the fact that people want to use the trains rather than to drive and to have to dictate their letters while driving—I am sure that that was a slip of the tongue by Nick Johnston. We want to make it easier for people to make that choice. My hope is that today's debate will put rail services firmly on the agenda and let people know that the Parliament is committed to improving the quality of rail services.

Sir Alastair Morton from the strategic rail authority has made it very clear that the performance of the train-operating companies that bid for franchise replacements will be a major consideration when those bids are assessed. The performance of rail companies now will affect the extent to which they run rail services in the future. They all know that, and that is critical.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:14.3101891+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1756E184P464C714101", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27231, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 487.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 487.0, "ID": 27231, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Grahame, Christine", "ID": 1756, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Christine Grahame", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 523.0, "ContributionID": 714101, "EditedText": "I will deal with two areas: compensation and the issue of the Crown. I would like to address sections 7 to 12, particularly the issue of compensatory payment in instalments. Will the minister consider reducing the multiplier from 20 to 10? Representations have been made to us by the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors and Dundas and Wilson, a major commercial firm in Edinburgh, which felt that 10 would be a more appropriate multiplier. The knock-on effect of that might be that the 10-year period for instalment payments—we have had evidence suggesting that that might be too long—may be reduced. I am pleased that the liability for payment falls on the vassal immediately before the appointed day and that the sum due is now not secured on the ground and that arrears will cease to be so secured. Feuduty is no longer an issue in examination of title for conveyancers. Compensation for the extension of burdens in sections 32 to 38 is justifiable where real burdens may have been used to reserve development value. As ministers will be aware, property could have been feu'd for a heavily discounted consideration—perhaps for no consideration at all—on the basis that there would be a financial term for the discharge of the burden were it to be varied in whole or in part. That is proper as it would be unjust to have a windfall benefit to a former vassal. I have some legal experience—not much—as a conveyancer and, as a member of the Justice and Home Affairs Committee, I felt my head fair birling again, just as it did in Professor Reid's constitutional law and conveyancing classes. The abolition of feudal tenure will affect the Crown just as it affects other superiors; land will cease to be held by the Crown. However, other Crown rights remain and it will continue to have residual title to property that is not otherwise owned, including heritable property. Along with other members, I heard submissions regarding the role of Crown as representative of the public interest—expressed by some as res publica—and, like Roseanna Cunningham, I have extreme sympathy for the sovereignty of the people, which is at the base of our independence. There are issues raised in Sir Crispin Agnew's submission that would have clarified the debate for the Justice and Home Affairs Committee. Sir Crispin refers to Professor McQueen, who wrote: \"in feudalism, landownership and sovereignty coincided, so that the Crown's sovereignty over Scotland and dominium eminens, its ultimate tenurial superiority, were the same thing, identical concepts.\" He goes on to say that\"the sovereignty and the paramount superiority are interlinked, so that the theory regarding to which right they pertained did not need to be determined in a feudal society.\" As we are defeudalising, we must consider how we determine the role of the Crown. It is an important issue. Sir Crispin Agnew says: \"The extent of the Crown's ultimate rights as owner of all the land for the benefit of the community is far from clear in law, with the leading text book writers differing as to the extent or even the source of those rights; eg whether they derive from the paramount superiority or from sovereignty.\" Those are issues that I and other members of the Justice and Home Affairs Committee would like to explore slowly, over strong coffee. Sir Crispin goes on to say: \"If absolute ownership to land is given by the proposed Act, then the legal basis on which that ownership can now be controlled may be lost.\" There is a serious, constitutional legal issue at the heart of this, on which some of us may become experts in due course. I am grateful to Professor Reid for his article—I say this to hearten Jim Wallace—in which he tells us that the bill repeals 45 acts, 246 sections and 57 schedules. As the minister said, it is goodbye to the kindly tenants of Lochmaben.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will deal with two areas: compensation and the issue of the Crown. I would like to address sections 7 to 12, particularly the issue of compensatory payment in instalments. Will the minister consider reducing the multiplier from 20 to 10? Representations have been made to us by the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors and Dundas and Wilson, a major commercial firm in Edinburgh, which felt that 10 would be a more appropriate multiplier. The knock-on effect of that might be that the 10-year period for instalment payments—we have had evidence suggesting that that might be too long—may be reduced.

I am pleased that the liability for payment falls on the vassal immediately before the appointed day and that the sum due is now not secured on the ground and that arrears will cease to be so secured. Feuduty is no longer an issue in examination of title for conveyancers.

Compensation for the extension of burdens in sections 32 to 38 is justifiable where real burdens may have been used to reserve development value. As ministers will be aware, property could have been feu'd for a heavily discounted consideration—perhaps for no consideration at all—on the basis that there would be a financial term for the discharge of the burden were it to be varied in whole or in part. That is proper as it would be unjust to have a windfall benefit to a former vassal.

I have some legal experience—not much—as a conveyancer and, as a member of the Justice and Home Affairs Committee, I felt my head fair birling again, just as it did in Professor Reid's constitutional law and conveyancing classes. The abolition of feudal tenure will affect the Crown just as it affects other superiors; land will cease to be held by the Crown. However, other Crown rights remain and it will continue to have residual title to property that is not otherwise owned, including heritable property.

Along with other members, I heard submissions regarding the role of Crown as representative of the public interest—expressed by some as res publica—and, like Roseanna Cunningham, I have extreme sympathy for the sovereignty of the people, which is at the base of our independence.

There are issues raised in Sir Crispin Agnew's submission that would have clarified the debate for the Justice and Home Affairs Committee. Sir Crispin refers to Professor McQueen, who wrote:

\"in feudalism, landownership and sovereignty coincided, so that the Crown's sovereignty over Scotland and dominium eminens, its ultimate tenurial superiority, were the same thing, identical concepts.\"

He goes on to say that

\"the sovereignty and the paramount superiority are interlinked, so that the theory regarding to which right they pertained did not need to be determined in a feudal society.\"

As we are defeudalising, we must consider how we determine the role of the Crown. It is an important issue. Sir Crispin Agnew says:

\"The extent of the Crown's ultimate rights as owner of all the land for the benefit of the community is far from clear in law, with the leading text book writers differing as to the extent or even the source of those rights; eg whether they derive from the paramount superiority or from sovereignty.\"

Those are issues that I and other members of the Justice and Home Affairs Committee would like to explore slowly, over strong coffee. Sir Crispin goes on to say:

\"If absolute ownership to land is given by the proposed Act, then the legal basis on which that ownership can now be controlled may be lost.\"

There is a serious, constitutional legal issue at the heart of this, on which some of us may become experts in due course.

I am grateful to Professor Reid for his article—I say this to hearten Jim Wallace—in which he tells us that the bill repeals 45 acts, 246 sections and 57 schedules. As the minister said, it is goodbye to the kindly tenants of Lochmaben.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:01:23.8313068+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1773E197P503C714112", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27231, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 487.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 487.0, "ID": 27231, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hyslop, Fiona", "ID": 1773, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona Hyslop", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona Hyslop (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 552.0, "ContributionID": 714112, "EditedText": "It is fitting that the Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill is one of the first bills to be presented to the Parliament. I want to focus on a specific proposal that has been identified as a problem by all parties, but which the bill could deal with. I refer to a phrase in the long title, \"to make new provisions as respects conveyancing\", and to the proposal in the bill to amend the Conveyancing and Feudal Reform (Scotland) Act 1970. I remind members that this is part of the \"Your sofa is safer than your home\" saga. In June 1999, the Minister for Communities rejected the idea of bringing the law in Scotland in line with the law in England to protect home owners against unjust repossession. Following a dramatic U-turn, the minister has been jumping through hoops to create a legislative solution to that unjust anomaly. First she said that she would look at it in the context of responses to the housing green paper and bring forward legislation in the housing bill. That route was abandoned when it was pointed out to her that the green paper had not invited comments on repossession. My understanding is that she then moved to plan B, with her deputy suggesting that the issue could be resolved through Robert Brown's member's bill on the prevention of homelessness, provided that Mr Brown was prepared to dump all the other measures that he was proposing. Understandably, he was unwilling to do that. Plan C was the proposition that, at some point, Cathie Craigie would introduce a member's bill to address the Executive's concerns. It is a dubious practice for the Executive to hand-pick back benchers to help to plug holes in its legislative programme. I think that Cathie Craigie is sincere in what she is trying to bring about, but members' bills should be non-party political and the process should not be abused. I believe that the Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill is a better vehicle for the necessary changes that we have identified across the parties. The same committees will have to address the issue of unjust repossession, whether in a member's bill or as part of this bill—the same consultation process will be involved. In the interests of efficiency, would it not be better to use Executive time to address the issue, rather than using up members' time? How can we introduce suspended repossession orders, which would give sheriffs the right to take into account a home owner's circumstances before granting a repossession order against them? Four months have passed since I asked the Minister for Communities whether she would introduce legislation—I have yet to receive an answer. In England, the Administration of Justice Acts 1970 and 1973 allow for the suspension of mortgage repossession orders by permitting the court to use its judgment as to whether a reasonable time has been given to allow someone to pay back the arrears that are part and parcel of their problems. I want to propose an amendment that is not dissimilar to the provision in Robert Brown's bill—we both received help from Govan law centre with drafting. The proposed amendment would amend the Conveyancing and Feudal Reform (Scotland) Act 1970 to give Scottish home owners the same rights as their English counterparts. The Executive may argue that such an amendment is beyond the scope of the bill, but I would be grateful if, when the minister sums up, he would address the following points. The long title of the Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill includes the phrase \"to make new provisions as respects conveyancing\".Mortgages are covered by conveyancing statute. Section 67 seeks to amend the law on heritable securities by modifying the application of sections 14 to 30 of the Conveyancing and Feudal Reform (Scotland) Act 1970. To introduce suspended repossession orders, we would seek to amend those same sections. Accordingly, this bill already seeks to modify the same area of law that we propose to amend in addressing the problems of repossession orders. I will write to Roseanna Cunningham, the convener of the Justice and Home Affairs Committee, to ask her to consider these matters. We should challenge Scotland to be more creative and innovative but, in doing so, why do we not provide leadership? If we want to prove that we are a can-do Parliament that uses a bit of common sense for the common good, why do we not end the misery of thousands of people who face repossession by supporting practical proposals for change?", "EditedTextHTML": "It is fitting that the Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill is one of the first bills to be presented to the Parliament. I want to focus on a specific proposal that has been identified as a problem by all parties, but which the bill could deal with. I refer to a phrase in the long title,

\"to make new provisions as respects conveyancing\", and to the proposal in the bill to amend the Conveyancing and Feudal Reform (Scotland) Act 1970.

I remind members that this is part of the \"Your sofa is safer than your home\" saga. In June 1999, the Minister for Communities rejected the idea of bringing the law in Scotland in line with the law in England to protect home owners against unjust repossession. Following a dramatic U-turn, the minister has been jumping through hoops to create a legislative solution to that unjust anomaly. First she said that she would look at it in the context of responses to the housing green paper and bring forward legislation in the housing bill. That route was abandoned when it was pointed out to her that the green paper had not invited comments on repossession.

My understanding is that she then moved to plan B, with her deputy suggesting that the issue could be resolved through Robert Brown's member's bill on the prevention of homelessness, provided that Mr Brown was prepared to dump all the other measures that he was proposing. Understandably, he was unwilling to do that.

Plan C was the proposition that, at some point, Cathie Craigie would introduce a member's bill to address the Executive's concerns. It is a dubious practice for the Executive to hand-pick back benchers to help to plug holes in its legislative programme. I think that Cathie Craigie is sincere in what she is trying to bring about, but members' bills should be non-party political and the process should not be abused.

I believe that the Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill is a better vehicle for the necessary changes that we have identified across the parties. The same committees will have to address the issue of unjust repossession, whether in a member's bill or as part of this bill—the same consultation process will be involved. In the interests of efficiency, would it not be better to use Executive time to address the issue, rather than using up members' time?

How can we introduce suspended repossession orders, which would give sheriffs the right to take into account a home owner's circumstances

before granting a repossession order against them? Four months have passed since I asked the Minister for Communities whether she would introduce legislation—I have yet to receive an answer.

In England, the Administration of Justice Acts 1970 and 1973 allow for the suspension of mortgage repossession orders by permitting the court to use its judgment as to whether a reasonable time has been given to allow someone to pay back the arrears that are part and parcel of their problems. I want to propose an amendment that is not dissimilar to the provision in Robert Brown's bill—we both received help from Govan law centre with drafting. The proposed amendment would amend the Conveyancing and Feudal Reform (Scotland) Act 1970 to give Scottish home owners the same rights as their English counterparts. The Executive may argue that such an amendment is beyond the scope of the bill, but I would be grateful if, when the minister sums up, he would address the following points.

The long title of the Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill includes the phrase

\"to make new provisions as respects conveyancing\".

Mortgages are covered by conveyancing statute. Section 67 seeks to amend the law on heritable securities by modifying the application of sections 14 to 30 of the Conveyancing and Feudal Reform (Scotland) Act 1970. To introduce suspended repossession orders, we would seek to amend those same sections. Accordingly, this bill already seeks to modify the same area of law that we propose to amend in addressing the problems of repossession orders. I will write to Roseanna Cunningham, the convener of the Justice and Home Affairs Committee, to ask her to consider these matters.

We should challenge Scotland to be more creative and innovative but, in doing so, why do we not provide leadership? If we want to prove that we are a can-do Parliament that uses a bit of common sense for the common good, why do we not end the misery of thousands of people who face repossession by supporting practical proposals for change?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:01:23.8313068+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2180E179P471C714054", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Infectious Salmon Anaemia", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27229, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 407.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 407.0, "ID": 27229, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lochhead, Richard", "ID": 2180, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Lochhead", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Richard Lochhead: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 423.0, "ContributionID": 714054, "EditedText": "On a point of order. This is a speech, not a question.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. This is a speech, not a question.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:44.0221047+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C714007", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 320.0, "ContributionID": 714007, "EditedText": "Not just now.It is also not before time when we consider that, hidden in the detail of Mr McConnell's consultation document, is the fact that between last year and this year central Government spending in schools was actually cut by nearly £12 million—a fact that was missing from his opening remarks today.", "EditedTextHTML": "Not just now.

It is also not before time when we consider that, hidden in the detail of Mr McConnell's consultation document, is the fact that between last year and this year central Government spending in schools was actually cut by nearly £12 million—a fact that was missing from his opening remarks today.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:00:50.3207435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C714009", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 324.0, "ContributionID": 714009, "EditedText": "Perhaps a bit later on, Richard. I want to concentrate on measuring education spending against education need. It has to be acknowledged that, although spending on education is increasing, so too are the burdens on local authorities. Much of the extra spending on education is ring-fenced specifically to meet new burdens on local authorities. For example, the spending on pre-school education and child care is for local authorities to meet new obligations in those areas. I am not saying that there is anything wrong in that approach, but it means that core education budgets remain as stretched now as they have been in the past. Perhaps that is why it is so galling to find that substantial sums can be found to bail out Scottish Opera or the national stadium, but that money cannot be found to tackle, for example, the fact that in Glasgow half the primary schools cannot afford to install basic security systems. The Scottish Executive's answer to that is that no more money is available. Education authorities will face several challenges over the next few years, and the budgets that have been announced will not be able to cope with them. The outstanding repair bill for Scotland's schools is around £1 billion, and the Government's only answer is private finance. The SNP's views on the private finance initiative are well established, but it is fair to say—and the minister might even acknowledge it when he sums up—that, with the details that are emerging from the Glasgow PFI projects, some of the SNP's concerns are proving to be well founded. There are fewer classrooms, fewer staff rooms and poorer sports facilities—that is the reality of private finance. There is no denying the fact that, when the McCrone committee reports next year, teachers will demand a substantial pay increase—and rightly so, because they have fallen behind other professions. How, within the budgets that have been announced, can local authorities properly reward teachers? They have to find a way of doing so if we are to attract the best graduates to the teaching profession. Jack McConnell talks about \"1,000 additional teachers\". Given the shortage of supply teachers that already exists, it is absolutely essential that we find a way of properly rewarding our teachers if we are to be able to meet that commitment.", "EditedTextHTML": "Perhaps a bit later on, Richard.

I want to concentrate on measuring education spending against education need. It has to be acknowledged that, although spending on education is increasing, so too are the burdens on local authorities. Much of the extra spending on education is ring-fenced specifically to meet new burdens on local authorities. For example, the spending on pre-school education and child care is for local authorities to meet new obligations in those areas.

I am not saying that there is anything wrong in that approach, but it means that core education budgets remain as stretched now as they have been in the past. Perhaps that is why it is so galling to find that substantial sums can be found to bail out Scottish Opera or the national stadium, but that money cannot be found to tackle, for example, the fact that in Glasgow half the primary schools cannot afford to install basic security systems. The Scottish Executive's answer to that is that no more money is available.

Education authorities will face several challenges over the next few years, and the budgets that have been announced will not be able to cope with them. The outstanding repair bill for Scotland's schools is around £1 billion, and the Government's only answer is private finance. The SNP's views on the private finance initiative are well established, but it is fair to say—and the minister might even acknowledge it when he sums up—that, with the details that are emerging from the Glasgow PFI projects, some of the SNP's concerns are proving to be well founded. There are fewer classrooms, fewer staff rooms and poorer sports facilities—that is the reality of private finance.

There is no denying the fact that, when the McCrone committee reports next year, teachers will demand a substantial pay increase—and rightly so, because they have fallen behind other professions. How, within the budgets that have been announced, can local authorities properly reward teachers? They have to find a way of doing so if we are to attract the best graduates to the teaching profession.

Jack McConnell talks about \"1,000 additional teachers\". Given the shortage of supply teachers that already exists, it is absolutely essential that we find a way of properly rewarding our teachers if we are to be able to meet that commitment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:00:50.3207435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C714011", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 328.0, "ContributionID": 714011, "EditedText": "I am summing up.In his summing up, Jack McConnell will no doubt attack the SNP again. He would perhaps do better to reflect on the fact that education spending is rising at a slower rate in Scotland than it is south of the border. Would he argue that the education system in Scotland needs less money than the system in England? Or does he agree with us that fiscal economy is needed in Scotland to allow us to spend appropriate sums on our much valued public services?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am summing up.

In his summing up, Jack McConnell will no doubt attack the SNP again. He would perhaps do better to reflect on the fact that education spending is rising at a slower rate in Scotland than it is south of the border. Would he argue that the education system in Scotland needs less money than the system in England? Or does he agree with us that fiscal economy is needed in Scotland to allow us to spend appropriate sums on our much valued public services?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:00:50.3207435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2140E187P335C713859", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Cross-party Groups", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27227, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27227, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Rumbles, Mike", "ID": 2140, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Rumbles", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Mike Rumbles (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 7.0, "ContributionID": 713859, "EditedText": "I am pleased to have the opportunity, on behalf of the Standards Committee, to present this report on the \"Regulation of Cross-Party Groups\". Cross-party groups contain members from across the parties who share an interest in a particular subject or cause. Members representing different political views have made clear, in a number of policy areas, that they wish to come together to discuss and promote matters of mutual interest and concern. It is right that the Parliament should support this development by providing facilities and recognition to properly constituted groups. The report addresses the need to put in place a framework to allow such groups to develop within this Parliament. The principles that were central to the thinking of the Standards Committee in devising a possible framework were inclusiveness, openness and transparency. The development of cross-party groups will provide a real opportunity for including people from a cross-section of society in Scotland in the work of the Parliament. This is an inclusive Parliament. It is the expectation that cross-party groups will contain not just MSPs but those with specialist knowledge or direct experience of the relevant policy areas, whether they be interested members of the public or from voluntary organisations, local authorities, universities or the private sector. MSPs need to hear from those, for example, with experience of how policies operate in practice and those with experience in other social settings if we are to produce the legislation that Scotland needs to meet the challenges of the future. Cross-party groups can be expected to develop and influence the work of our Parliament. It is hoped that they will contribute significantly to policy thinking to assist members in their tasks of understanding and investigating issues of importance to the people of Scotland and to assist them in their scrutiny and development of legislation. Because those groups will have influence it is important that they operate in accordance with good practice, that their activities are in the public interest and that they are open and transparent. That is why an effective system of regulation is essential. Public confidence in the Parliament demands that those groups are not used as a vehicle for promoting vested interests. Groups that wish to be recognised by the Parliament must submit their application to the Standards Committee for approval and must demonstrate to the committee that their purpose is of genuine public interest. If the committee doubts this and thinks that a group is designed, for example, to further particular commercial interests, it will not be approved. Groups must be genuinely cross-party. They should not be used to promote the policies of one section of the Parliament or its supporters in the wider community. Before any group is approved it will need to undertake to comply with the rules set out in the committee report. The rules that the Standards Committee is recommending are designed to ensure openness through public advertising on the Parliament's website and the requirement that all meetings take place in public. The wider public need to be fully aware of their activities. These procedures also require full transparency about a group's membership, including both MSPs and non-MSPs, its purpose, identification of its officers and funding or staff assistance that it receives. All those matters must be registered by groups before approval and new or changed details must be entered in the register as they occur. This information will be publicly available in the office of the Standards Committee clerk and on the Parliament's website. Any member wishing to set up a cross-party group needs, therefore, to speak to the clerk of the Standards Committee in the first instance. The committee will ensure that registered cross-party groups meet the requirements of the scheme. I am confident that a properly regulated system of cross-party groups will be of benefit to all those connected to the Parliament and all those who want to engage with its work. For groups and individuals in Scottish society, cross-party groups will be another significant means by which they can make their views known to MSPs and will promote the essential interaction that is needed between the Parliament and civic Scotland. I move,That the Parliament agrees the arrangements for the regulation of Cross-Party Groups in the Scottish Parliament set out in the annex to the Second Report of the Standards Committee and that these should apply with immediate effect.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am pleased to have the opportunity, on behalf of the Standards Committee, to present this report on the \"Regulation of Cross-Party Groups\".

Cross-party groups contain members from across the parties who share an interest in a particular subject or cause. Members representing different political views have made clear, in a number of policy areas, that they wish to come together to discuss and promote matters of mutual interest and concern.

It is right that the Parliament should support this development by providing facilities and recognition to properly constituted groups. The report addresses the need to put in place a framework to allow such groups to develop within this Parliament. The principles that were central to the thinking of the Standards Committee in devising a possible framework were inclusiveness, openness and transparency.

The development of cross-party groups will provide a real opportunity for including people from a cross-section of society in Scotland in the work of the Parliament. This is an inclusive Parliament. It is the expectation that cross-party groups will contain not just MSPs but those with specialist knowledge or direct experience of the relevant policy areas, whether they be interested members of the public or from voluntary organisations, local authorities, universities or the private sector. MSPs need to hear from those, for example, with experience of how policies operate in practice and those with experience in other social settings if we are to produce the legislation that Scotland needs to meet the challenges of the future.

Cross-party groups can be expected to develop and influence the work of our Parliament. It is hoped that they will contribute significantly to policy thinking to assist members in their tasks of understanding and investigating issues of importance to the people of Scotland and to assist them in their scrutiny and development of legislation. Because those groups will have influence it is important that they operate in accordance with good practice, that their activities are in the public interest and that they are open and transparent. That is why an effective system of regulation is essential.

Public confidence in the Parliament demands that those groups are not used as a vehicle for promoting vested interests. Groups that wish to be recognised by the Parliament must submit their application to the Standards Committee for approval and must demonstrate to the committee that their purpose is of genuine public interest. If the committee doubts this and thinks that a group is designed, for example, to further particular commercial interests, it will not be approved.

Groups must be genuinely cross-party. They should not be used to promote the policies of one section of the Parliament or its supporters in the wider community. Before any group is approved it will need to undertake to comply with the rules set out in the committee report. The rules that the Standards Committee is recommending are designed to ensure openness through public advertising on the Parliament's website and the requirement that all meetings take place in public. The wider public need to be fully aware of their activities.

These procedures also require full transparency about a group's membership, including both MSPs and non-MSPs, its purpose, identification of its officers and funding or staff assistance that it receives. All those matters must be registered by groups before approval and new or changed details must be entered in the register as they occur. This information will be publicly available in the office of the Standards Committee clerk and on the Parliament's website. Any member wishing to set up a cross-party group needs, therefore, to speak to the clerk of the Standards Committee in the first instance. The committee will ensure that registered cross-party groups meet the requirements of the scheme.

I am confident that a properly regulated system of cross-party groups will be of benefit to all those connected to the Parliament and all those who want to engage with its work. For groups and individuals in Scottish society, cross-party groups will be another significant means by which they can make their views known to MSPs and will promote the essential interaction that is needed between the Parliament and civic Scotland.

I move,

That the Parliament agrees the arrangements for the regulation of Cross-Party Groups in the Scottish Parliament set out in the annex to the Second Report of the Standards Committee and that these should apply with immediate effect.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713868", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Cross-party Groups", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27227, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27227, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 32.0, "ContributionID": 713868, "EditedText": "The decision on this motion will come at 5 o'clock.", "EditedTextHTML": "The decision on this motion will come at 5 o'clock.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1973E119P326C713862", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Cross-party Groups", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27227, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27227, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gorrie, Donald", "ID": 1973, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Donald Gorrie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Donald Gorrie (Central Scotland) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 16.0, "ContributionID": 713862, "EditedText": "Like the other speakers, I welcome the proposal on cross-party groups. We have been waiting for the proposal so that the groups can set themselves up formally; hitherto, they have been shadow groups, or whatever the expression is. The groups are particularly important because the official committees, if I may call them that, in this Parliament are very important. Each covers a wide range and is unlikely to give enough attention to the subjects that are meant to be covered. Cross- party groups, therefore, have an important role to play. I raise two points. First, because of the shortness of our residential parliamentary week— or however it would be described—there are few windows of opportunity for groups to meet. One of the problems is that the different political groups meet at different times. It may be beyond the bounds of possibility—I am a naive and hopeful person—but if the parliamentary groups met at the same time, it would free up more time for cross- party groups. That is at least worth considering. Secondly, although I am not suggesting an amendment to these excellent regulations, Mike Rumbles and his colleagues might, in future, consider whether there could be special rules to facilitate and encourage groups that include our Westminster colleagues, and even, in this new dispensation, our Welsh and Irish colleagues, to consider issues of common concern. There are issues, such as helping the elderly, which are of mutual interest, and on which we could collaborate. There may be matters that our members with an interest in rural affairs could discuss with Assembly members from Northern Ireland and Wales. I suggest that we have special rules to encourage joint all-party groups. I am happy to support the motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "Like the other speakers, I welcome the proposal on cross-party groups. We have been waiting for the proposal so that the groups can set themselves up formally; hitherto, they have been shadow groups, or whatever the expression is. The groups are particularly important because the official committees, if I may call them that, in this Parliament are very important. Each covers a wide range and is unlikely to give enough attention to the subjects that are meant to be covered. Cross- party groups, therefore, have an important role to play.

I raise two points. First, because of the shortness of our residential parliamentary week— or however it would be described—there are few windows of opportunity for groups to meet. One of the problems is that the different political groups meet at different times. It may be beyond the bounds of possibility—I am a naive and hopeful person—but if the parliamentary groups met at the same time, it would free up more time for cross- party groups. That is at least worth considering.

Secondly, although I am not suggesting an amendment to these excellent regulations, Mike

Rumbles and his colleagues might, in future, consider whether there could be special rules to facilitate and encourage groups that include our Westminster colleagues, and even, in this new dispensation, our Welsh and Irish colleagues, to consider issues of common concern. There are issues, such as helping the elderly, which are of mutual interest, and on which we could collaborate. There may be matters that our members with an interest in rural affairs could discuss with Assembly members from Northern Ireland and Wales. I suggest that we have special rules to encourage joint all-party groups.

I am happy to support the motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2188E70P92C713863", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Cross-party Groups", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27227, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27227, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harper, Robin", "ID": 2188, "PartyName": "Scottish Green Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Green", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robin Harper", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robin Harper (Lothians) (Green): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 19.0, "ContributionID": 713863, "EditedText": "I am very happy to support the motion, although one problem has occurred to me over the past few days. The wave power commission, which was set up a few months ago with all-party support, has already elected a chair and a secretary from outside the Parliament. The new regulations put us in a slightly invidious position. In one sense, there is a clear commercial aim behind the commission because we wish to promote wind and wave power developments in Scotland. I would welcome some clarification of the definition of commercial promotion, particularly if, as we hope, we set up a renewables group. I alert Mike Rumbles to the fact that we might have to ask the Standards Committee to reconsider what commercial interest might mean for some cross-party groups, particularly those supporting renewable energy.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am very happy to support the motion, although one problem has occurred to me over the past few days. The wave power commission, which was set up a few months ago with all-party support, has already elected a chair and a secretary from outside the Parliament. The new regulations put us in a slightly invidious position. In one sense, there is a clear commercial aim behind the commission because we wish to promote wind and wave power developments in Scotland. I would welcome some clarification of the definition of commercial promotion, particularly if, as we hope, we set up a renewables group.

I alert Mike Rumbles to the fact that we might have to ask the Standards Committee to reconsider what commercial interest might mean for some cross-party groups, particularly those supporting renewable energy.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C713864", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Cross-party Groups", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27227, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27227, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Patricia Ferguson (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 22.0, "ContributionID": 713864, "EditedText": "As someone who, for much of the Standards Committees discussion on this subject, was on a sabbatical, I had not planned to speak this morning. However, there are two points that I would like to make. First, I congratulate my colleagues on the Standards Committee and the committee clerks, who have put in a great deal of work, on producing an excellent set of proposals. Secondly, I would like to highlight the fact that the Scottish Parliament is leading the way in this area. Such regulation is not to be found elsewhere in Britain. It is good that Scotland is seen to be regulating cross-party groups to allow the general public, civic Scotland, as Tricia Marwick mentioned, and our parliamentarians to understand what is expected of cross-party groups. The framework is straightforward, but will cover future eventualities. Lord James Douglas-Hamilton outlined several groups that have already been established. I expect that Des McNulty will answer Robin Harper's specific question about those groups that have already been established. The regulations go some way towards being flexible for such groups. The layout of the regulations allows civic Scotland—those people who want to work with the Parliament—to understand what we mean and what we are doing. It is not a set of rules for the sake of a set of rules, but one that will support the work of the cross-party groups. I recommend the regulations to the chamber.", "EditedTextHTML": "As someone who, for much of the Standards Committees discussion on this subject, was on a sabbatical, I had not planned to speak this morning. However, there are two points that I would like to make.

First, I congratulate my colleagues on the Standards Committee and the committee clerks, who have put in a great deal of work, on producing an excellent set of proposals. Secondly, I would like to highlight the fact that the Scottish Parliament is leading the way in this area. Such regulation is not to be found elsewhere in Britain. It is good that Scotland is seen to be regulating cross-party groups to allow the general public, civic Scotland, as Tricia Marwick mentioned, and our parliamentarians to understand what is expected of cross-party groups. The framework is straightforward, but will cover future eventualities.

Lord James Douglas-Hamilton outlined several groups that have already been established. I

expect that Des McNulty will answer Robin Harper's specific question about those groups that have already been established. The regulations go some way towards being flexible for such groups.

The layout of the regulations allows civic Scotland—those people who want to work with the Parliament—to understand what we mean and what we are doing. It is not a set of rules for the sake of a set of rules, but one that will support the work of the cross-party groups.

I recommend the regulations to the chamber.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713870", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 37.0, "ContributionID": 713870, "EditedText": "I have selected Mr Wilson's amendment, which is printed on page 2 of the business bulletin. I am very happy to call timeously on Mr McConnell to open the debate and to move the motion standing in his name.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have selected Mr Wilson's amendment, which is printed on page 2 of the business bulletin. I am very happy to call timeously on Mr McConnell to open the debate and to move the motion standing in his name.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C713872", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 42.0, "ContributionID": 713872, "EditedText": "Will the Minister for Finance comment on the document published this morning by the Finance Committee, which says of the report to which he refers that it \"could be thought by some to be misleading\"?Does the minister believe that the consultation document could be thought by some to be misleading?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the Minister for Finance comment on the document published this morning by the Finance Committee, which says of the report to which he refers that it

\"could be thought by some to be misleading\"?

Does the minister believe that the consultation document could be thought by some to be misleading?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C713873", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 44.0, "ContributionID": 713873, "EditedText": "The member clearly thought that it was misleading, partly because he found it difficult to understand. As I said at yesterday's meeting of the Finance Committee, there are two important points about the consultation. First, next year we will need to provide more explanation of individual figures and the responsibilities and targets that each budget heading covers, not only in the consultation, but in the figures that are presented to Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "The member clearly thought that it was misleading, partly because he found it difficult to understand. As I said at yesterday's meeting of the Finance Committee, there are two important points about the consultation. First, next year we will need to provide more explanation of individual figures and the responsibilities and targets that each budget heading covers, not only in the consultation, but in the figures that are presented to Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C713875", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 48.0, "ContributionID": 713875, "EditedText": "I was asked a question, which I would like to answer. Secondly, as I told the Finance Committee yesterday, in future years we will extend the provision of real-terms figures from level 1 to level 2 to ensure that people can make proper comparisons year on year. We are in a transitional year, but I am encouraged that there have been clear indications of interest in the consultation paper. If people are taking an interest this year, I have high hopes for much greater engagement in the issues when we start a full financial cycle. I undertook yesterday to work with the Finance Committee to develop ways of encouraging greater public participation next year. In particular, the figures next year will, as I said, be described in real terms. Moreover, we will provide information for specific committee scrutiny of spending issues and we will supply explanations alongside numbers to ensure that everyone understands where the money goes.", "EditedTextHTML": "I was asked a question, which I would like to answer.

Secondly, as I told the Finance Committee yesterday, in future years we will extend the provision of real-terms figures from level 1 to level 2 to ensure that people can make proper comparisons year on year.

We are in a transitional year, but I am encouraged that there have been clear indications of interest in the consultation paper. If people are taking an interest this year, I have high hopes for much greater engagement in the issues when we start a full financial cycle.

I undertook yesterday to work with the Finance Committee to develop ways of encouraging greater public participation next year. In particular, the figures next year will, as I said, be described in real terms. Moreover, we will provide information for specific committee scrutiny of spending issues and we will supply explanations alongside numbers to ensure that everyone understands where the money goes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C713877", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 52.0, "ContributionID": 713877, "EditedText": "I will finish this next part first.From next year, the Executive will adopt a new three-stage budgeting cycle. Stage 1 will include the publication of an Executive report, which sets out our strategic approach to future spending and detailed consideration by the Parliament's various subject committees of the strategies and priorities adopted by the Executive for forward years. At stage 2, the Parliament—specifically the Finance Committee—will comment on specific spending plans for the next financial year. Today's debate marks the end of stage 2 for this year. At stage 3, Parliament will consider and approve the Executive's formal budget bill. The system is based on openness, accountability and probity. Those three criteria form the essential principles of the operation of any sound system of public finance. For many years, those principles have applied at the end of the financial process—financial reporting—but we are now bringing them into the planning stage. They are fundamental to proper parliamentary scrutiny and involvement by the wider community.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will finish this next part first.

From next year, the Executive will adopt a new three-stage budgeting cycle. Stage 1 will include the publication of an Executive report, which sets out our strategic approach to future spending and detailed consideration by the Parliament's various subject committees of the strategies and priorities adopted by the Executive for forward years. At stage 2, the Parliament—specifically the Finance Committee—will comment on specific spending plans for the next financial year. Today's debate marks the end of stage 2 for this year. At stage 3, Parliament will consider and approve the Executive's formal budget bill.

The system is based on openness, accountability and probity. Those three criteria form the essential principles of the operation of any sound system of public finance. For many years, those principles have applied at the end of the financial process—financial reporting—but we are now bringing them into the planning stage. They are fundamental to proper parliamentary scrutiny and involvement by the wider community.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C713882", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr David Davidson (North-East Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 62.0, "ContributionID": 713882, "EditedText": "The Minister for Finance has given us the figures in cash terms, but will he give us them in real terms?", "EditedTextHTML": "The Minister for Finance has given us the figures in cash terms, but will he give us them in real terms?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2112E192P495C713884", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacAskill, Kenny", "ID": 2112, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenny MacAskill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Kenny MacAskill (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 66.0, "ContributionID": 713884, "EditedText": "I noted in yesterday's The Scotsman that Mr Prescott, the Secretary of State for the Environment, Transport and the Regions, announced £750 million for councils in England for bus priority and integrated transport schemes and that more details would be announced in the House of Commons today. How much are we getting?", "EditedTextHTML": "I noted in yesterday's The Scotsman that Mr Prescott, the Secretary of State for the Environment, Transport and the Regions, announced £750 million for councils in England for bus priority and integrated transport schemes and that more details would be announced in the House of Commons today. How much are we getting?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C713890", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 78.0, "ContributionID": 713890, "EditedText": "It is new money that did not appear in the budget that the SNP produced for the election in May. If the SNP wants to talk about spending totals, I will be delighted to do so in a minute. Typically, the Opposition parties have attempted to belittle our achievements. Both have criticised the partnership, saying that we are spending too little on Scotland's public services. That is their right, but let us consider the position if either of them had been in power. We can do that, as the Tories left us spending plans when they left office and, in the 1997 election, the SNP published its plans for spending. Unfortunately, the SNP could not find the time to present us with spending plans for independence in 1999, even though it promised to.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is new money that did not appear in the budget that the SNP produced for the election in May. If the SNP wants to talk about spending totals, I will be delighted to do so in a minute.

Typically, the Opposition parties have attempted to belittle our achievements. Both have criticised the partnership, saying that we are spending too little on Scotland's public services. That is their right, but let us consider the position if either of them had been in power. We can do that, as the Tories left us spending plans when they left office and, in the 1997 election, the SNP published its plans for spending. Unfortunately, the SNP could not find the time to present us with spending plans for independence in 1999, even though it promised to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C713892", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 82.0, "ContributionID": 713892, "EditedText": "Let me just enjoy this first, and then we will see what Mr Gallie's response is. Under the Tories, spending by this Parliament would have been more than £1 billion lower this year than it is now. Next year, it would have been lower by almost £2 billion and the next year by almost £2.5 billion. That is almost £5.5 billion less spending in Scotland if the Tories had been in power. Following the changes since 1997 at Westminster and here, more than £1.5 billion more has been spent on the national health service. More than £1 billion more has been allocated to local government. Tory claims of underspending in the public sector always rang hollow—these figures show just how hollow they are.", "EditedTextHTML": "Let me just enjoy this first, and then we will see what Mr Gallie's response is. Under the Tories, spending by this Parliament would have been more than £1 billion lower this year than it is now. Next year, it would have been lower by almost £2 billion and the next year by almost £2.5 billion. That is almost £5.5 billion less spending in Scotland if the Tories had been in power. Following the changes since 1997 at Westminster and here, more than £1.5 billion more has been spent on the national health service. More than £1 billion more has been allocated to local government. Tory claims of underspending in the public sector always rang hollow—these figures show just how hollow they are.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C713896", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 90.0, "ContributionID": 713896, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C713903", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 104.0, "ContributionID": 713903, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C713904", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 106.0, "ContributionID": 713904, "EditedText": "No—I want to remind Mr Wilson of what he said when he was an SNP researcher back in 1997. The figures that Mr Wilson referred to yesterday during the Finance Committee meeting and that he called tiny reflect a £40 million actual, real-terms increase in the health budget for next year. Last night, I thought that it would be interesting to look back to see what the additional health spending line amounted to in the SNP's budget proposals in the 1997 election campaign. For 2000-01, the figure was £35 million—not to mention the smaller budget for this year. Andrew Wilson refers to a tiny percentage, but the SNP's proposals are piddling in comparison. We have added more than £500 million to health service expenditure—more than 10 times the amount that the SNP proposed. Over the three years of the comprehensive spending review, spending on health by this Executive will be more than £1.25 billion higher than it would have been under the SNP's plans.", "EditedTextHTML": "No—I want to remind Mr Wilson of what he said when he was an SNP researcher back in 1997. The figures that Mr Wilson referred to yesterday during the Finance Committee meeting and that he called tiny reflect a £40 million actual, real-terms increase in the health budget for next year.

Last night, I thought that it would be interesting to look back to see what the additional health spending line amounted to in the SNP's budget proposals in the 1997 election campaign. For 2000-01, the figure was £35 million—not to mention the smaller budget for this year. Andrew Wilson refers to a tiny percentage, but the SNP's proposals are piddling in comparison. We have added more than £500 million to health service expenditure—more than 10 times the amount that the SNP proposed. Over the three years of the comprehensive spending review, spending on health by this Executive will be more than £1.25 billion higher than it would have been under the SNP's plans.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713905", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 108.0, "ContributionID": 713905, "EditedText": "Please wind up now, minister.", "EditedTextHTML": "Please wind up now, minister.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713928", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 156.0, "ContributionID": 713928, "EditedText": "He has left the chamber.", "EditedTextHTML": "He has left the chamber.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C713923", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr David Davidson (North-East Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 146.0, "ContributionID": 713923, "EditedText": "Today, the Minister for Finance has given the chamber the first coalition budget, in level 2 terms. Some weeks ago, the Finance Committee tried to scrutinise these figures with the help of two eminent economists. Those gentlemen advised the committee that they could not unscramble the figures to identify in reasonable detail how the major budget heads were broken down. Here is an example in the figures that the minister has given: we know the totals for Scottish Enterprise and Highlands and Islands Enterprise but we do not have a clue about how the money will be spread among the activities of those organisations. Under the new process, this Parliament has the right to seek budget modifications, but it cannot do that unless it gets the right level of information from the Executive. If everything is aggregated, how do we suggest alternatives or even try to guess the priorities of the Executive? I welcome what the minister said a few minutes ago about openness in future. On that basis, perhaps we will tick him off only a little about this year's process, but it was dropped on us at fairly short notice. Certainly I hope that the minister will ensure that there are better information flows in future. If committees are to do their job properly, they must have access to information at the level at which they need it. I think the minister agreed to that, but why, given that all the committees will need that information, and the Finance Committee and the Audit Committee must have it, does he not save time, go for gold and put out the information in a better form? We have to move away from the magic-show mentality, under which money appears again and again, spun and spun by the huge army of advisers—or at least by those who are left. On that matter, perhaps the minister will come clean and tell us why the taxpayer should be liable to pay off Mr Rafferty. The Minister for Finance has taken pride in the new budget, but he must practise what he preaches. Andrew Wilson talked about the all- party document that was produced today by the Finance Committee. I hope that the minister will take heed of it. I look forward to the day when we will conclude the written agreements that we have been promised week after week. The expenditure statement shows clearly that spending is down in real terms in many vital areas. The minister says that the statement is prudent. Is it prudent to have 22 ministers and their cohorts of staff, when Scottish hospital trusts are making public statements of overspends on clinical service and saying that they cannot fund their activities in coming years? Such statements are being made all over Scotland. Why is Susan Deacon not banging on Jack McConnell's door—perhaps she is—to seek priority spending for certain aspects of the hospital life that we try to run in Scotland? Is Susan Deacon aware that Grampian staff vacancies cannot be filled because of a lack of resources? Why does the Scottish Executive not allow for drug bill inflation or new treatments coming on stream? Why does it not recognise the increasing demands on hospital services? One cannot just use a flat figure across the budget; it does not work. There are rumours about patients in Tayside even being asked to contribute to the cost of treatment—somebody said something similar about Ireland. What happened to the coalition claim to have health as a priority? Where is the detail in these figures? There is a line that says that revenue for hospital and community health services is £3.67 billion. Does anybody in the coalition know what is hidden in those figures? Perhaps, when some coalition members speak, we might find out. Health is not the only area of concern. The figure for local government is £5.76 billion. What mysteries lie there? Parents ask about school spending, the elderly ask regularly about home helps and support from councils, and the nervous ask about street lighting. The figures before us today do not provide any answers to those questions. What about the hidden but massive hit on the ability of local councils to provide services? I do not have to go to the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities to find out what local authorities think of that. Christmas is approaching, but it will not be a happy one for people in the public sector. They are worrying that their jobs may go or that they will not get the pay rise that is vital to pay for the many stealth taxes that have been imposed by new Labour. What kind of Dickensian Executive forces our mentally ill patients out of hospital at Christmas, hoping that staff will take them into their homes, as in the sad case of Lennox Castle? An answer to that question would be welcome. It is a pity that members of the Executive do not often read The Scotsman. If they did, they might take a hint from an article that appeared on 26 August, when Mark Sneddon of Labour's ruling executive committee said that the lack of money for schools and hospitals was \"enough to make a lot of Labour people and Labour voters weep\". I do not know about that, but it is making an awful lot of Scots weep. Hidden in the Executive's figures is the fact that, despite the rhetoric and despite the fact that Labour has already been in power for two years, it will be another year before total Scottish expenditure reaches the level spent by the Conservative Government. Even the separatists and the three socialist members agree with that. That wonderful spinning machine, the partnership agreement, is supposed to have produced the biggest spending increase in history on the national health service, and waiting times—", "EditedTextHTML": "Today, the Minister for Finance has given the chamber the first coalition budget, in level 2 terms. Some weeks ago, the Finance Committee tried to scrutinise these figures with the help of two eminent economists. Those gentlemen advised the committee that they could not unscramble the figures to identify in reasonable detail how the major budget heads were broken down. Here is an example in the figures that the minister has given: we know the totals for Scottish Enterprise and Highlands and Islands Enterprise but we do not have a clue about how the money will be spread among the activities of those organisations.

Under the new process, this Parliament has the right to seek budget modifications, but it cannot do that unless it gets the right level of information from the Executive. If everything is aggregated, how do we suggest alternatives or even try to guess the priorities of the Executive? I welcome what the minister said a few minutes ago about openness in future. On that basis, perhaps we will tick him off only a little about this year's process, but it was dropped on us at fairly short notice. Certainly I hope that the minister will ensure that there are better information flows in future.

If committees are to do their job properly, they must have access to information at the level at which they need it. I think the minister agreed to that, but why, given that all the committees will need that information, and the Finance Committee and the Audit Committee must have it, does he not save time, go for gold and put out the information in a better form?

We have to move away from the magic-show mentality, under which money appears again and again, spun and spun by the huge army of advisers—or at least by those who are left. On that matter, perhaps the minister will come clean and tell us why the taxpayer should be liable to pay off Mr Rafferty.

The Minister for Finance has taken pride in the new budget, but he must practise what he

preaches. Andrew Wilson talked about the all- party document that was produced today by the Finance Committee. I hope that the minister will take heed of it. I look forward to the day when we will conclude the written agreements that we have been promised week after week.

The expenditure statement shows clearly that spending is down in real terms in many vital areas. The minister says that the statement is prudent. Is it prudent to have 22 ministers and their cohorts of staff, when Scottish hospital trusts are making public statements of overspends on clinical service and saying that they cannot fund their activities in coming years? Such statements are being made all over Scotland. Why is Susan Deacon not banging on Jack McConnell's door—perhaps she is—to seek priority spending for certain aspects of the hospital life that we try to run in Scotland?

Is Susan Deacon aware that Grampian staff vacancies cannot be filled because of a lack of resources? Why does the Scottish Executive not allow for drug bill inflation or new treatments coming on stream? Why does it not recognise the increasing demands on hospital services? One cannot just use a flat figure across the budget; it does not work. There are rumours about patients in Tayside even being asked to contribute to the cost of treatment—somebody said something similar about Ireland.

What happened to the coalition claim to have health as a priority? Where is the detail in these figures? There is a line that says that revenue for hospital and community health services is £3.67 billion. Does anybody in the coalition know what is hidden in those figures? Perhaps, when some coalition members speak, we might find out.

Health is not the only area of concern. The figure for local government is £5.76 billion. What mysteries lie there? Parents ask about school spending, the elderly ask regularly about home helps and support from councils, and the nervous ask about street lighting. The figures before us today do not provide any answers to those questions. What about the hidden but massive hit on the ability of local councils to provide services? I do not have to go to the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities to find out what local authorities think of that.

Christmas is approaching, but it will not be a happy one for people in the public sector. They are worrying that their jobs may go or that they will not get the pay rise that is vital to pay for the many stealth taxes that have been imposed by new Labour. What kind of Dickensian Executive forces our mentally ill patients out of hospital at Christmas, hoping that staff will take them into their homes, as in the sad case of Lennox Castle? An answer to that question would be welcome.

It is a pity that members of the Executive do not often read The Scotsman. If they did, they might take a hint from an article that appeared on 26 August, when Mark Sneddon of Labour's ruling executive committee said that the lack of money for schools and hospitals was

\"enough to make a lot of Labour people and Labour voters weep\".

I do not know about that, but it is making an awful lot of Scots weep.

Hidden in the Executive's figures is the fact that, despite the rhetoric and despite the fact that Labour has already been in power for two years, it will be another year before total Scottish expenditure reaches the level spent by the Conservative Government. Even the separatists and the three socialist members agree with that.

That wonderful spinning machine, the partnership agreement, is supposed to have produced the biggest spending increase in history on the national health service, and waiting times—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C713924", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 148.0, "ContributionID": 713924, "EditedText": "Will Mr Davidson give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr Davidson give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C713925", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Davidson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 150.0, "ContributionID": 713925, "EditedText": "Certainly.", "EditedTextHTML": "Certainly.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C713926", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 152.0, "ContributionID": 713926, "EditedText": "I have two questions. First, I note Mr Davidson's new-found interest in jobs and employment. I welcome that conversion by the Conservative party. Will he confirm that one of the reasons we are able to increase public expenditure so much this year, next year and the following year is that the economy is in better shape than it has been for a generation, with the lowest unemployment, the lowest interest rates and the lowest inflation? Secondly, will Mr Davidson confirm that, had the Conservatives still been in power, total public expenditure would have been £5.5 billion less over that three-year period? That is according to published figures; it is not me trying to guess, as I sometimes have to do, what Conservative policies might have been. That amount comes from the figures published by the previous Conservative Government.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have two questions. First, I note Mr Davidson's new-found interest in jobs and employment. I welcome that conversion by the Conservative party. Will he confirm that one of the reasons we are able to increase public expenditure so much this year, next year and the following year is that the economy is in better shape than it has been for a generation, with the lowest unemployment, the lowest interest rates and the lowest inflation?

Secondly, will Mr Davidson confirm that, had the Conservatives still been in power, total public expenditure would have been £5.5 billion less over that three-year period? That is according to published figures; it is not me trying to guess, as I sometimes have to do, what Conservative policies might have been. That amount comes from the figures published by the previous Conservative Government.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C713934", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Davidson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 168.0, "ContributionID": 713934, "EditedText": "I am grateful for Andrew's help, but he knows that that is not true. If we were in power, we would be doing a far better job than is the Executive. At least we would address the issues. We will not address the cost of the new Parliament, but I hope that when Mr McConnell sees the First Minister, he will respond to my question about the funding for it. Let us turn to the coalition; I cannot put all the blame at Labour's door. At every opportunity, the Liberal Democrat party tries to take the credit for steering policy in the coalition—really. The Liberal Democrats were bought cheaply. Does the Minister for Finance think that he got value for money when he bought them?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful for Andrew's help, but he knows that that is not true. If we were in power, we would be doing a far better job than is the Executive. At least we would address the issues.

We will not address the cost of the new Parliament, but I hope that when Mr McConnell sees the First Minister, he will respond to my question about the funding for it.

Let us turn to the coalition; I cannot put all the blame at Labour's door. At every opportunity, the Liberal Democrat party tries to take the credit for steering policy in the coalition—really. The Liberal Democrats were bought cheaply. Does the Minister for Finance think that he got value for money when he bought them?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C713935", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 170.0, "ContributionID": 713935, "EditedText": "Yes.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C713939", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Davidson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 178.0, "ContributionID": 713939, "EditedText": "I am winding up. Presiding Officer, am I allowed to give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am winding up. Presiding Officer, am I allowed to give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C713940", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Patricia Ferguson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 180.0, "ContributionID": 713940, "EditedText": "You are in your winding-up period, so you should push on.", "EditedTextHTML": "You are in your winding-up period, so you should push on.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C713943", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Annabel Goldie (West of Scotland) (Con) rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 187.0, "ContributionID": 713943, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C713948", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 197.0, "ContributionID": 713948, "EditedText": "In a second. Let me get into my stride, Mr Neil. The budget will provide much more: £91 million over three years for the child care strategy; £26 million for schemes to improve public transport; £12 million for the healthy homes initiative to improve damp and cold homes. Within the limits of the block, that is money well allocated, but the minister knows—as we all do—that there are pressures everywhere.", "EditedTextHTML": "In a second. Let me get into my stride, Mr Neil.

The budget will provide much more: £91 million over three years for the child care strategy; £26 million for schemes to improve public transport; £12 million for the healthy homes initiative to improve damp and cold homes. Within the limits of the block, that is money well allocated, but the minister knows—as we all do—that there are pressures everywhere.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2118E157P454C713951", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Quinan, Mr Lloyd", "ID": 2118, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lloyd Quinan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Lloyd Quinan (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 203.0, "ContributionID": 713951, "EditedText": "The committee has not discussed the matter.", "EditedTextHTML": "

The committee has not discussed the matter.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C713952", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 205.0, "ContributionID": 713952, "EditedText": "It has been mentioned in the committee. I am sorry that Mr Quinan was not paying attention at the time. As I said, there are pressures everywhere—in local government, in the national health service, in the police. Councils are in their sixth year of having to absorb wage increases; in Fife Council alone, the cost amounts to £47 million. Those pressures have produced a partnership at local council level in Fife, as the minister well knows—I remember handing him the motion. The joint Lib Dem-Labour motion in Fife calls for more help from central Government for pay awards and more discretion and freedom in setting budgets; it also emphasises the need for greater resources for capital expenditure, school building maintenance and so on.", "EditedTextHTML": "It has been mentioned in the committee. I am sorry that Mr Quinan was not paying attention at the time.

As I said, there are pressures everywhere—in local government, in the national health service, in the police. Councils are in their sixth year of having to absorb wage increases; in Fife Council alone, the cost amounts to £47 million.

Those pressures have produced a partnership at local council level in Fife, as the minister well knows—I remember handing him the motion. The joint Lib Dem-Labour motion in Fife calls for more help from central Government for pay awards and more discretion and freedom in setting budgets; it also emphasises the need for greater resources for capital expenditure, school building maintenance and so on.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C713955", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 211.0, "ContributionID": 713955, "EditedText": "In a second. Let me finish this section of my speech. The partnership at local level reflects the pressures on local government. In the NHS, consider the predicament of our health boards. I have met two boards in my region recently; they have had to face efficiency savings every year since 1986. They have cut administration to the bone and now say that they may have to turn from non-clinical to clinical savings. That is ominous, if it means health service rationing. The boards face significant inflation, particularly in their generic drugs budget, and are carrying out a sensitive and complex acute services review. Turning to the police—", "EditedTextHTML": "In a second. Let me finish this section of my speech.

The partnership at local level reflects the pressures on local government.

In the NHS, consider the predicament of our health boards. I have met two boards in my region recently; they have had to face efficiency savings every year since 1986. They have cut administration to the bone and now say that they may have to turn from non-clinical to clinical savings. That is ominous, if it means health service rationing. The boards face significant inflation, particularly in their generic drugs budget, and are carrying out a sensitive and complex acute services review.

Turning to the police—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C713958", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 217.0, "ContributionID": 713958, "EditedText": "Will Mr Raffan give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr Raffan give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C713960", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 221.0, "ContributionID": 713960, "EditedText": "Will Mr Raffan point out where in Mr McConnell's budget the money has been set aside to pay for his party's policy of abolishing tuition fees?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr Raffan point out where in Mr McConnell's budget the money has been set aside to pay for his party's policy of abolishing tuition fees?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C713963", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 227.0, "ContributionID": 713963, "EditedText": "I gave way to Mr Neil; I must carry on.", "EditedTextHTML": "I gave way to Mr Neil; I must carry on.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2112E192P495C713968", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacAskill, Kenny", "ID": 2112, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenny MacAskill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr MacAskill: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 237.0, "ContributionID": 713968, "EditedText": "John Prescott has promised £80 billion.", "EditedTextHTML": "John Prescott has promised £80 billion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C713971", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 243.0, "ContributionID": 713971, "EditedText": "I am not nearly finished. I will happily give way to Mr Wilson when I have finished with the SNP wish list. Its total spending pledge is not merely the figure that I just gave—in addition there is the electrification of the east coast rail line, which is so far uncosted. The total is £13 million per day—", "EditedTextHTML": "I am not nearly finished. I will happily give way to Mr Wilson when I have finished with the SNP wish list. Its total spending pledge is not merely the figure that I just gave—in addition there is the electrification of the east coast rail line, which is so far uncosted. The total is £13 million per day—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C713973", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 247.0, "ContributionID": 713973, "EditedText": "I will give way in a second, when I have finished with the wish list. That pledged spend equals £13 million per day since 1 September. The shadow Minister for Finance—no iron shadow chancellor—cannot control his three colleagues on the SNP front bench, let alone those behind him. He is not the iron shadow chancellor—he is the jelly shadow chancellor. He is seen as Mr Salmond's protégé and that is why the fundamentalists disregard and bypass him at every possible opportunity. They have nothing but contempt for him.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will give way in a second, when I have finished with the wish list. That pledged spend equals £13 million per day since 1 September. The shadow Minister for Finance—no iron shadow chancellor—cannot control his three colleagues on the SNP front bench, let alone those behind him. He is not the iron shadow chancellor—he is the jelly shadow chancellor. He is seen as Mr Salmond's protégé and that is why the fundamentalists disregard and bypass him at every possible opportunity. They have nothing but contempt for him.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C713974", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 249.0, "ContributionID": 713974, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C713977", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 255.0, "ContributionID": 713977, "EditedText": "Mr MacAskill also pledged £119 million for a stake in Railtrack. On 10 November, £100 million was pledged for the Borders railway, £2 million was promised as compensation for scallop fishermen and £1.4 million was promised for firefighters over the millennium celebrations.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr MacAskill also pledged £119 million for a stake in Railtrack. On 10 November, £100 million was pledged for the Borders railway, £2 million was promised as compensation for scallop fishermen and £1.4 million was promised for firefighters over the millennium celebrations.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1996E124P211C713978", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAveety, Mr Frank", "ID": 1996, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Shettleston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Local Government", "SpeakerName": "Frank McAveety", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Local Government (Mr Frank McAveety): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 257.0, "ContributionID": 713978, "EditedText": "Will Mr Raffan confirm that the SNP's new song—which should be included on its compact disc—should be \"Big Spender\"?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr Raffan confirm that the SNP's new song—which should be included on its compact disc—should be \"Big Spender\"?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C713980", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 261.0, "ContributionID": 713980, "EditedText": "Please bring your comments to a close, Mr Raffan.", "EditedTextHTML": "Please bring your comments to a close, Mr Raffan.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C713988", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 278.0, "ContributionID": 713988, "EditedText": "As the Barnett squeeze means that we start per capita spending at one level and it decreases, does Mr Chisholm believe that that is fair today or fair tomorrow? Does he think the current share of UK health spending in Scotland is fair?", "EditedTextHTML": "As the Barnett squeeze means that we start per capita spending at one level and it decreases, does Mr Chisholm believe that that is fair today or fair tomorrow? Does he think the current share of UK health spending in Scotland is fair?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2152E53P75C713995", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnston, Nick", "ID": 2152, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nick Johnston", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nick Johnston (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 294.0, "ContributionID": 713995, "EditedText": "I suspected that, like the minister's document, the debate would be long on promises and short on detail; it is a debate that follows new Labour's policy on recycling, where money is laundered, and used time and again. If the Scottish National party has plumbed the heights of economic illiteracy, the Executive has mastered the art of economic chicanery. Let not the Labour party boast about how much it is increasing spending. Let it consider the problems that underlie that spending; let it consider the cost to the health boards, as a result of the revaluation of properties; and let it consider how much money has been taken out of the health service by the shortage of generic drugs and the increase in the drugs bill. Let us not forget that this Government is the Government that, for the first time in the history of the national health service, is capping spending on prescriptions, cash-limiting treatment and bringing in rationing by the back door. The Conservatives have always said that we would maintain vital services, as we proved when we were in office. We want to see money being spent efficiently. For example, Perth and Kinross Council has dispensed of five directors—five heads of departments have taken early retirement and are not being replaced. The total saving must be about £400,000. If that council can do it, other local authorities can do it. When will we get rid of directors of leisure, of public policy, of recreation and of legal administration—director upon director upon director, all feeding from the public purse? There must be savings of at least £12 million in local authorities, at director level alone, in Scotland. Let us root out, in our local authorities, our health boards and in all our public services, those who are costing but not performing, and who are feeding from the public purse. Why is the model for best practice, for the way in which our local authorities run their services, not working? Efficiency savings in local authorities would release money for services, and efficiency savings in the health service would release money for patient care. I keep returning to the example of the planning system, which—as I have said many times in the chamber—is archaic, creaking and holding back development. However, all we are promised is another Government review: that kiss of death, the Government review; that excuse for doing nothing, the Government review—", "EditedTextHTML": "I suspected that, like the minister's document, the debate would be long on promises and short on detail; it is a debate that follows new Labour's policy on recycling, where money is laundered, and used time and again. If the Scottish National party has plumbed the heights of economic illiteracy, the Executive has mastered the art of economic chicanery.

Let not the Labour party boast about how much it is increasing spending. Let it consider the problems that underlie that spending; let it consider the cost to the health boards, as a result of the revaluation of properties; and let it consider how much money has been taken out of the health service by the shortage of generic drugs and the increase in the drugs bill. Let us not forget that this Government is the Government that, for the first time in the history of the national health service, is capping spending on prescriptions, cash-limiting treatment and bringing in rationing by the back door.

The Conservatives have always said that we would maintain vital services, as we proved when we were in office. We want to see money being spent efficiently. For example, Perth and Kinross Council has dispensed of five directors—five heads of departments have taken early retirement and are not being replaced. The total saving must be about £400,000. If that council can do it, other local authorities can do it.

When will we get rid of directors of leisure, of public policy, of recreation and of legal administration—director upon director upon director, all feeding from the public purse? There must be savings of at least £12 million in local authorities, at director level alone, in Scotland. Let us root out, in our local authorities, our health boards and in all our public services, those who are costing but not performing, and who are feeding from the public purse. Why is the model for best practice, for the way in which our local authorities run their services, not working? Efficiency savings in local authorities would release money for services, and efficiency savings in the health service would release money for patient care.

I keep returning to the example of the planning system, which—as I have said many times in the chamber—is archaic, creaking and holding back development. However, all we are promised is another Government review: that kiss of death, the Government review; that excuse for doing nothing, the Government review—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C713998", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Simpson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 300.0, "ContributionID": 713998, "EditedText": "I was hoping to comment on efficiency savings. In fact, the health service is required to make such savings every year. That requirement has been there since the Conservatives introduced it in 1986, as part of a process of re-engineering. I am not sure why Nick Johnston made that comment, and I am also appalled by his awful comment on food and drink.", "EditedTextHTML": "I was hoping to comment on efficiency savings. In fact, the health service is required to make such savings every year. That requirement has been there since the Conservatives introduced it in 1986, as part of a process of re-engineering. I am not sure why Nick Johnston made that comment, and I am also appalled by his awful comment on food and drink.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2152E53P75C713999", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnston, Nick", "ID": 2152, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nick Johnston", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nick Johnston: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 302.0, "ContributionID": 713999, "EditedText": "I have succeeded in appalling Richard Simpson. Perhaps when the minister sums up, he will explain why our roads are still congested and our road building programme and economic development are being halted, when Gordon Brown is increasing taxation and sitting with £12 billion in his war chest. Perhaps he can explain why 20 per cent of our children emerge from our secondary schools illiterate, when Gordon Brown is increasing taxation and sitting with £12 billion in his war chest. As Gordon Brown sits counting that £12 billion, perhaps just for once, to use Mr McConnell's favourite phrase, the Executive will admit that the careful husbandry of the Conservative Government, in the last five years of its administration, laid the basis for this economic boom. I beg him to remember that, above all, all he is doing is redistributing our money. If the Labour party is intent on spending less of the gross domestic product than the Major, Thatcher, Heath, Wilson or Callaghan Governments—in fact, any Government that I can remember—at least let it admit that the raised expectations as a result of electoral promises will not be realised. The people of Scotland will remember those who promised so much, yet whose spending will not reach that of the previous Conservative Government until 2001. The people of Scotland will come to realise that they are paying more in tax and getting lower standards in return. I reject the motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have succeeded in appalling Richard Simpson.

Perhaps when the minister sums up, he will explain why our roads are still congested and our road building programme and economic development are being halted, when Gordon Brown is increasing taxation and sitting with £12 billion in his war chest. Perhaps he can explain

why 20 per cent of our children emerge from our secondary schools illiterate, when Gordon Brown is increasing taxation and sitting with £12 billion in his war chest. As Gordon Brown sits counting that £12 billion, perhaps just for once, to use Mr McConnell's favourite phrase, the Executive will admit that the careful husbandry of the Conservative Government, in the last five years of its administration, laid the basis for this economic boom. I beg him to remember that, above all, all he is doing is redistributing our money.

If the Labour party is intent on spending less of the gross domestic product than the Major, Thatcher, Heath, Wilson or Callaghan Governments—in fact, any Government that I can remember—at least let it admit that the raised expectations as a result of electoral promises will not be realised. The people of Scotland will remember those who promised so much, yet whose spending will not reach that of the previous Conservative Government until 2001. The people of Scotland will come to realise that they are paying more in tax and getting lower standards in return. I reject the motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C714010", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Simpson rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 326.0, "ContributionID": 714010, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C714012", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon (Argyll and Bute) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 331.0, "ContributionID": 714012, "EditedText": "The debate offers a good opportunity to discuss Scotland's first budget. The discussion has been reasonably constructive, although not always. On behalf of the Scottish Liberal Democrats, welcome the increase in real-terms spending from the low, in 1997-98, of £14.17 billion to £15.8 billion by 2001. That is a significant increase in resources coming into Scotland, and especially into Scotland's public services. It reverses the Tory cuts from 1994 through to 1997—cuts that were, rather disappointingly, carried on by the Labour Administration. I am glad that the Scottish Executive is now turning that round, and that we will see a big lift in spending on public services over the next two to three years.", "EditedTextHTML": "The debate offers a good opportunity to discuss Scotland's first budget. The discussion has been reasonably constructive, although not always. On behalf of the Scottish Liberal Democrats, welcome the increase in real-terms spending from the low, in 1997-98, of £14.17 billion to £15.8 billion by 2001. That is a significant increase in resources coming into Scotland, and especially into Scotland's public services. It reverses the Tory cuts from 1994 through to 1997—cuts that were, rather disappointingly, carried on by the Labour Administration. I am glad that the Scottish Executive is now turning that round, and that we will see a big lift in spending on public services over the next two to three years.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C714015", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 337.0, "ContributionID": 714015, "EditedText": "If we accept those figures as true, does Mr Lyon believe that that is a fair share? Should that share stand or fall?", "EditedTextHTML": "If we accept those figures as true, does Mr Lyon believe that that is a fair share? Should that share stand or fall?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2044E178P334C714020", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jenkins, Ian", "ID": 2044, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ian Jenkins", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ian Jenkins (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 350.0, "ContributionID": 714020, "EditedText": "I believe that we need more money for Scotland. In the long term, this Parliament will not be able to do all the things that we want to do with the level of funding that is available at present. Along with my Liberal Democrat colleagues in Westminster, I will continue to press Gordon Brown to loosen the purse-strings over the next few years in a way that is sensible and steady—MEMBERS: \"For tuition fees?\" Absolutely. I will come to that shortly. As long as there are real needs to be fulfilled I will not support Westminster proposals to cut income tax. As Tommy Sheridan said, the cake needs to be bigger and that will have tax implications. That is not for our Parliament—", "EditedTextHTML": "I believe that we need more money for Scotland. In the long term, this Parliament will not be able to do all the things that we want to do with the level of funding that is available at present. Along with my Liberal Democrat colleagues in Westminster, I will continue to press Gordon Brown to loosen the purse-strings over the next few years in a way that is sensible and steady—[MEMBERS: \"For tuition fees?\"] Absolutely. I will come to that shortly. As long as there are real needs to be fulfilled I will not support Westminster proposals to cut income tax. As Tommy Sheridan said, the cake needs to be bigger and that will have tax implications. That is not for our Parliament—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2118E157P454C714021", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Quinan, Mr Lloyd", "ID": 2118, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lloyd Quinan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Quinan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 352.0, "ContributionID": 714021, "EditedText": "Mr Jenkins welcomes the budget. Can he identify where the money for the abolition of tuition fees is in it?", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Jenkins welcomes the budget. Can he identify where the money for the abolition of tuition fees is in it?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2044E178P334C714022", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jenkins, Ian", "ID": 2044, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ian Jenkins", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ian Jenkins: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 354.0, "ContributionID": 714022, "EditedText": "I cannot but it is not my job to do so; it is Jack McConnell's job, and he will need to find it. As Des McNulty said, we are considering the way in which we divide the cake we have. I welcome the expanded spending on education, which is part of the partnership agreement. Eighty million pounds will start to change the shape and mood of Scottish education, paying for more teachers and so on. Along with that there is a massive extension of funding for child care. That is a strategy of early intervention—getting to the heart of problems at an early stage to prevent difficulties and spending later on. In the partnership we see this not simply as expenditure but as long-term investment. By getting education right, by early intervention through nursery education and child care, we should avoid youngsters becoming detached from schooling, disaffected, disconnected from the norms of society, bored, attention seeking, becoming disruptive and resentful and drifting into offending and not entering employment because they have not had an education. Similarly, spending on drugs enforcement tries to get at the heart of the problem before it leads to social deprivation and more spending on justice and social work. Instead of mopping up, we are stopping things before they occur. In the warm homes initiative we are trying to combat the cold and dampness that is a breeding ground for illness and social deprivation, damaging people's lives and driving them out of the house for comfort, to fags and drink, their kids on the streets. If we can make their homes better places it solves problems. If we spend the money wisely early on, we will save money later. Andrew Wilson said we should look beyond the ends of our noses. That is what we are doing— what we approve today. All of us dream sometimes about winning the lottery and think about how we would spend the money, but we cannot run our lives or our country like that. We cannot wait for Andrew Wilson's balls to come up. Laughter. We cannot wait for his Thunderball economics. We must work with what we have and invest it wisely for the future.", "EditedTextHTML": "I cannot but it is not my job to do so; it is Jack McConnell's job, and he will need to find it. As Des McNulty said, we are considering the way in which we divide the cake we have. I welcome the expanded spending on education, which is part of the partnership agreement. Eighty million pounds will start to change the shape and mood of Scottish education, paying for more teachers and so on.

Along with that there is a massive extension of funding for child care. That is a strategy of early intervention—getting to the heart of problems at an early stage to prevent difficulties and spending later on. In the partnership we see this not simply as expenditure but as long-term investment. By getting education right, by early intervention through nursery education and child care, we should avoid youngsters becoming detached from schooling, disaffected, disconnected from the norms of society, bored, attention seeking, becoming disruptive and resentful and drifting into offending and not entering employment because they have not had an education.

Similarly, spending on drugs enforcement tries to get at the heart of the problem before it leads to social deprivation and more spending on justice and social work. Instead of mopping up, we are stopping things before they occur. In the warm homes initiative we are trying to combat the cold and dampness that is a breeding ground for illness and social deprivation, damaging people's lives and driving them out of the house for comfort, to fags and drink, their kids on the streets. If we can make their homes better places it solves problems. If we spend the money wisely early on, we will save money later.

Andrew Wilson said we should look beyond the ends of our noses. That is what we are doing— what we approve today. All of us dream sometimes about winning the lottery and think about how we would spend the money, but we cannot run our lives or our country like that. We cannot wait for Andrew Wilson's balls to come up. [Laughter.] We cannot wait for his Thunderball economics. We must work with what we have and

invest it wisely for the future.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C714024", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Simpson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 359.0, "ContributionID": 714024, "EditedText": "When did the Conservative Government ever publish level 2 funding for Scotland with any explanation at any point in its 18 years in power? How does that match up to transparency?", "EditedTextHTML": "When did the Conservative Government ever publish level 2 funding for Scotland with any explanation at any point in its 18 years in power? How does that match up to transparency?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1970E66P288C714029", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNulty, Des", "ID": 1970, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Clydebank and Milngavie" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Des McNulty", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Des McNulty: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 370.0, "ContributionID": 714029, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C714033", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 379.0, "ContributionID": 714033, "EditedText": "It is quite clear that the SNP— and, increasingly, the Conservative party—is more interested in rhetoric than responsibility. The truth was revealed earlier in the debate. Mr Swinney himself admitted that the real-terms increase this year in the health budget in Scotland is more than £200 million, once the end-of-year finance is taken out. That is significantly more than Mr Wilson was going on and on and on about in the Finance Committee yesterday. Even the amount that he was talking about is more than the additional health spending of £35 million that the Scottish National party was planning on a reduced Tory budget for Scotland this year. The increase of more than £200 million is enough for three new hospitals in Scotland. It is a significant amount of money, which should be welcomed rather than criticised and run down by the Opposition.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is quite clear that the SNP— and, increasingly, the Conservative party—is more interested in rhetoric than responsibility. The truth was revealed earlier in the debate. Mr Swinney himself admitted that the real-terms increase this year in the health budget in Scotland is more than £200 million, once the end-of-year finance is taken out. That is significantly more than Mr Wilson was going on and on and on about in the Finance Committee yesterday. Even the amount that he was talking about is more than the additional health spending of £35 million that the Scottish National party was planning on a reduced Tory budget for Scotland this year. The increase of more than £200 million is enough for three new hospitals in Scotland. It is a significant amount of money, which should be welcomed rather than criticised and run down by the Opposition.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C714034", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Davidson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 381.0, "ContributionID": 714034, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C714035", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 383.0, "ContributionID": 714035, "EditedText": "No. I enjoyed Mr Davidson's speech so much that we will leave it at that for the moment. There were a number of good speeches. Des McNulty made the very good point that we are here to ensure that money is spent on real priorities, on tackling deprivation and on need, and that this Parliament's duty is to ensure that the budget is skewed in that direction. Malcolm Chisholm made good points about the balance of expenditure between Scotland and England and the balance of expenditure within Scotland, and about how the Opposition parties' sums do not add up. Unfortunately, we heard from colleagues in both the Scottish National and Conservative parties a depressing list of yet more proposals for additional expenditure. I thought that Nicola Sturgeon might shed some light on the process when she said, at the beginning of her speech, that it was not all about money. I thought that, at last, we had a Scottish National party spokesperson who was interested in standards, exam results, perhaps the performance of our schools or the nature of our education system and the curriculum. But she went on to talk about money—again and again. As Mr Raffan has identified, there has been more than £1.3 billion-worth of promises in only three months. What on earth will be the promises over the next three years?", "EditedTextHTML": "No. I enjoyed Mr Davidson's speech so much that we will leave it at that for the moment.

There were a number of good speeches. Des McNulty made the very good point that we are here to ensure that money is spent on real priorities, on tackling deprivation and on need, and that this Parliament's duty is to ensure that the budget is skewed in that direction. Malcolm Chisholm made good points about the balance of expenditure between Scotland and England and the balance of expenditure within Scotland, and about how the Opposition parties' sums do not add up.

Unfortunately, we heard from colleagues in both the Scottish National and Conservative parties a depressing list of yet more proposals for additional expenditure. I thought that Nicola Sturgeon might shed some light on the process when she said, at

the beginning of her speech, that it was not all about money. I thought that, at last, we had a Scottish National party spokesperson who was interested in standards, exam results, perhaps the performance of our schools or the nature of our education system and the curriculum. But she went on to talk about money—again and again. As Mr Raffan has identified, there has been more than £1.3 billion-worth of promises in only three months. What on earth will be the promises over the next three years?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C714040", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 393.0, "ContributionID": 714040, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C714044", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 401.0, "ContributionID": 714044, "EditedText": "No. Mr Wilson moved an amendment that referred to the level of expenditure in Scotland compared to the level in England, but did not address that issue in his speech. He should not try to use the time for other people's speeches to dig up his arguments. If he wants to move the debate away from priorities in Scotland to a comparison between Scotland and England, he should use his speeches to make his points, to which we will then respond. Even if one took all the oil revenues—not just the 75 per cent that the SNP thinks that we would get—Scotland's deficit is still more than £2 billion. That represents 10p on the basic rate of income tax. The SNP admitted earlier this year that that deficit exists. They could not produce a budget— beyond the figures from 1997 that I have here—in this year's election campaign. The reality is promises here, promises there, promises everywhere. Different promises are made in different parts of Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "No. Mr Wilson moved an amendment that referred to the level of expenditure in Scotland compared to the level in England, but did not address that issue in his speech. He should not try to use the time for other people's speeches to dig up his arguments. If he wants to move the debate away from priorities in Scotland to a comparison between Scotland and

England, he should use his speeches to make his points, to which we will then respond.

Even if one took all the oil revenues—not just the 75 per cent that the SNP thinks that we would get—Scotland's deficit is still more than £2 billion. That represents 10p on the basic rate of income tax. The SNP admitted earlier this year that that deficit exists. They could not produce a budget— beyond the figures from 1997 that I have here—in this year's election campaign. The reality is promises here, promises there, promises everywhere. Different promises are made in different parts of Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C714047", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Infectious Salmon Anaemia", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27229, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 407.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 407.0, "ID": 27229, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 408.0, "ContributionID": 714047, "EditedText": "The next item of business is a statement by Mr John Home Robertson on salmon anaemia. The minister will take questions at the end of his statement. There should therefore be no interventions.", "EditedTextHTML": "The next item of business is a statement by Mr John Home Robertson on salmon anaemia. The minister will take questions at the end of his statement. There should therefore be no interventions.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2100E64P254C714052", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Infectious Salmon Anaemia", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27229, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 407.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 407.0, "ID": 27229, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Home Robertson, John", "ID": 2100, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Lothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "John Home Robertson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Home Robertson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 419.0, "ContributionID": 714052, "EditedText": "On the basis of the science and the good advice that we have had from the Marine Laboratory, we are in a position to introduce more flexible controls, which should help the industry in a number of ways. It will be possible for healthy fish to be marketed and the controls on fallowing areas are being adjusted to take account of the identification of more precise circumstances. I hope that it may be possible, given the new circumstances, for the industry to consider commercial insurance against this disease. All those measures should be helpful to an industry that is important to some of the remotest areas in the Highlands and Islands.", "EditedTextHTML": "On the basis of the science and the good advice that we have had from the Marine Laboratory, we are in a position to introduce more flexible controls, which should help the industry in a number of ways. It will be possible for healthy fish to be marketed and the controls on fallowing areas are being adjusted to take account of the identification of more precise circumstances. I hope that it may be possible, given the new circumstances, for the industry to consider commercial insurance against this disease. All those measures should be helpful to an industry that is important to some of the remotest areas in the Highlands and Islands.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2066E64P88C714053", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Infectious Salmon Anaemia", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27229, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 407.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 407.0, "ID": 27229, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McGrigor, Jamie", "ID": 2066, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie McGrigor", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Jamie McGrigor (Highlands and Islands) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 421.0, "ContributionID": 714053, "EditedText": "I welcome the minister's statement, but does he agree—or does he know—that the slaughter of stocks without compensation may be a fundamental breach of property rights, as enshrined in the European convention on human rights, which is incorporated in the Scotland Act 1998? Will the Government offer any compensation to those farmers who have been forced to slaughter their stock on suspicion of ISA, only to find that there is no evidence to support the claim? Does the minister realise that in Norway, where ISA has existed for 15 years, the disease is dealt with case by case and only directly affected salmon are slaughtered? In that way, the incidence of the disease in Norway has been reduced from more than 150 outbreaks in the early 1990s to only two this year, whereas in Scotland, despite the wholesale slaughter policy, the number of outbreaks appears to be on the increase. Does the minister agree that the compulsory slaughter policy should be ended and a different, comprehensive system should be introduced? We should establish a code of best practice in aquaculture hygiene and management to minimise the incidence and spread of the disease. We should remove the ban on vaccines and encourage further development of effective vaccines. Is the minister aware, for example, that in Canada—", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the minister's statement, but does he agree—or does he know—that the slaughter of stocks without compensation may be a fundamental breach of property rights, as enshrined in the European convention on human rights, which is incorporated in the Scotland Act 1998? Will the Government offer any compensation to those farmers who have been forced to slaughter their stock on suspicion of ISA, only to find that there is no evidence to support the claim?

Does the minister realise that in Norway, where ISA has existed for 15 years, the disease is dealt with case by case and only directly affected salmon are slaughtered? In that way, the incidence of the disease in Norway has been reduced from more than 150 outbreaks in the early 1990s to only two this year, whereas in Scotland, despite the wholesale slaughter policy, the number of outbreaks appears to be on the increase.

Does the minister agree that the compulsory slaughter policy should be ended and a different, comprehensive system should be introduced? We should establish a code of best practice in aquaculture hygiene and management to minimise the incidence and spread of the disease. We should remove the ban on vaccines and encourage further development of effective vaccines. Is the minister aware, for example, that in Canada—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2066E64P88C714056", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Infectious Salmon Anaemia", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27229, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 407.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 407.0, "ID": 27229, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McGrigor, Jamie", "ID": 2066, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie McGrigor", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McGrigor: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 427.0, "ContributionID": 714056, "EditedText": "To sum up, we should introduce—Laughter.", "EditedTextHTML": "To sum up, we should introduce—[Laughter.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C714057", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Infectious Salmon Anaemia", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27229, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 407.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 407.0, "ID": 27229, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 429.0, "ContributionID": 714057, "EditedText": "You must sum up with a question.", "EditedTextHTML": "You must sum up with a question.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2100E64P254C714050", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Infectious Salmon Anaemia", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27229, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 407.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 407.0, "ID": 27229, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Home Robertson, John", "ID": 2100, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Lothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "John Home Robertson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Home Robertson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 415.0, "ContributionID": 714050, "EditedText": "Science takes time—the techniques for isolating and diagnosing the virus are complicated. It is important that we take decisions based on good science, rather than on media politics. That is why it has taken time to introduce flexibility. I waited until I had the best advice that I could get from the Marine Laboratory in Aberdeen. Mr Lochhead should not lose sight of the need to safeguard wild fish. If, because of political pressure from the industry, we had simply agreed to relax restrictions early on, we might have been taking risks with a valuable resource. I am not prepared to do that. The slaughter policy will not apply to healthy fish. That is one of the flexibility points that I am announcing today. Slaughter, disposal and destruction apply to infected fish. Under the flexibility that I am announcing today, we should be in a position to allow farmers to market healthy fish that do not have symptoms and are not diseased.", "EditedTextHTML": "Science takes time—the techniques for isolating and diagnosing the virus are complicated. It is important that we take decisions based on good science, rather than on media politics. That is why it has taken time to introduce flexibility. I waited until I had the best advice that I could get from the Marine Laboratory in Aberdeen.

Mr Lochhead should not lose sight of the need to safeguard wild fish. If, because of political pressure from the industry, we had simply agreed to relax restrictions early on, we might have been taking risks with a valuable resource. I am not prepared to do that.

The slaughter policy will not apply to healthy fish. That is one of the flexibility points that I am announcing today. Slaughter, disposal and destruction apply to infected fish. Under the flexibility that I am announcing today, we should be in a position to allow farmers to market healthy fish that do not have symptoms and are not diseased.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2100E64P254C714059", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Infectious Salmon Anaemia", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27229, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 407.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 407.0, "ID": 27229, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Home Robertson, John", "ID": 2100, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Lothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "John Home Robertson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Home Robertson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 433.0, "ContributionID": 714059, "EditedText": "Mr McGrigor asked a lot of questions. Sorry, I will rephrase that—he made a lot of points. The fundamental point is that no one wants to have to live with this disease; it would be infinitely better if the disease could be prevented and, indeed, eradicated. We are addressing the current situation, but we are bound by EU rules. As those rules stand, ISA is an exotic category list 1 disease, which until recently was not present in EU waters. That is why the tough rules are in place. In light of the new circumstances, we are making proposals to the EU for a more flexible approach. That approach will maintain our position of wanting to minimise the risk of the disease and to get rid of it wherever it crops up, while safeguarding a very important industry in the remotest areas of Scotland. We are liaising with the Norwegians and learning from their experience. Mr McGrigor referred to vaccines. One of our proposals to the EU is that, instead of a blanket ban on ISA vaccines, we would be prepared to consider vaccines, although it will take time for the pharmaceutical companies to come up with such products. On compensation, it is in the industry's interests that ISA should be defeated; that is why the controls are in place. It would not be appropriate to compensate in those circumstances, even though we understand that a number of fish farming companies have been very hard hit by the effects of ISA. That is why we have made extra funding of £9 million available to Highlands and Islands Enterprise to enable it to assist companies that have been affected by the controls.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr McGrigor asked a lot of questions. Sorry, I will rephrase that—he made a lot of points.

The fundamental point is that no one wants to have to live with this disease; it would be infinitely better if the disease could be prevented and, indeed, eradicated. We are addressing the current situation, but we are bound by EU rules. As those rules stand, ISA is an exotic category list 1 disease, which until recently was not present in EU waters. That is why the tough rules are in place. In light of the new circumstances, we are making proposals to the EU for a more flexible approach. That approach will maintain our position of wanting to minimise the risk of the disease and to get rid of it wherever it crops up, while safeguarding a very important industry in the remotest areas of Scotland. We are liaising with the Norwegians and learning from their experience.

Mr McGrigor referred to vaccines. One of our proposals to the EU is that, instead of a blanket ban on ISA vaccines, we would be prepared to consider vaccines, although it will take time for the pharmaceutical companies to come up with such products.

On compensation, it is in the industry's interests that ISA should be defeated; that is why the controls are in place. It would not be appropriate to compensate in those circumstances, even though we understand that a number of fish farming companies have been very hard hit by the effects of ISA. That is why we have made extra funding of £9 million available to Highlands and Islands Enterprise to enable it to assist companies that have been affected by the controls.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C714061", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Infectious Salmon Anaemia", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27229, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 407.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 407.0, "ID": 27229, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 437.0, "ContributionID": 714061, "EditedText": "Questions please, Mr Rumbles.", "EditedTextHTML": "Questions please, Mr Rumbles.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2140E187P335C714062", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Infectious Salmon Anaemia", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27229, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 407.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 407.0, "ID": 27229, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Rumbles, Mike", "ID": 2140, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Rumbles", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Rumbles: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 439.0, "ContributionID": 714062, "EditedText": "I have two questions. First, will the minister confirm that he will consult industry representatives by sending officials from the Marine Laboratory in Aberdeen to fish farms on the west coast and in the northern isles, to ensure that the disease is combated not only scientifically, but in the most effective way for the industry? Secondly, the minister will not need me to remind him that his announcement last month— that the virus had been detected in wild fish for the first time—sent shock waves through those involved in the fishing industry and on many of our famous salmon rivers. In my constituency, I am meeting the Dee salmon fisheries board next month and I will want to be able to give assurances that that announcement will not impact on it unduly. Will the minister confirm that the claims of spread from fish farming to the wild are not supported by any current evidence or fact?", "EditedTextHTML": "I have two questions. First, will the minister confirm that he will consult industry representatives by sending officials from the

Marine Laboratory in Aberdeen to fish farms on the west coast and in the northern isles, to ensure that the disease is combated not only scientifically, but in the most effective way for the industry?

Secondly, the minister will not need me to remind him that his announcement last month— that the virus had been detected in wild fish for the first time—sent shock waves through those involved in the fishing industry and on many of our famous salmon rivers. In my constituency, I am meeting the Dee salmon fisheries board next month and I will want to be able to give assurances that that announcement will not impact on it unduly. Will the minister confirm that the claims of spread from fish farming to the wild are not supported by any current evidence or fact?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2100E64P254C714063", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Infectious Salmon Anaemia", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27229, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 407.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 407.0, "ID": 27229, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Home Robertson, John", "ID": 2100, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Lothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "John Home Robertson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Home Robertson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 441.0, "ContributionID": 714063, "EditedText": "I can confirm that point straight away. There is no evidence that the disease has spread one way or the other at this stage. We may never find that out, but the scientists appear to have established that, in the three cases identified so far, wild fish have the virus. How that virus got to the wild stocks, or whether it had been there all along, remains to be seen. Some of the suspected cases in wild fish are on the east coast, including, for example, on the Tweed, which is a long way from the nearest fish farm. It would be a mistake to jump to conclusions. Mr Rumbles mentioned the scientists. I am reluctant to impose any more work on the scientists at the Marine Laboratory in Aberdeen. They have a lot on their plates because of different problems that have arisen recently, but it would be good if everybody involved had as much information as possible about the way in which the problem has been addressed so that we can tackle it more efficiently.", "EditedTextHTML": "I can confirm that point straight away. There is no evidence that the disease has spread one way or the other at this stage. We may never find that out, but the scientists appear to have established that, in the three cases identified so far, wild fish have the virus. How that virus got to the wild stocks, or whether it had been there all along, remains to be seen. Some of the suspected cases in wild fish are on the east coast, including, for example, on the Tweed, which is a long way from the nearest fish farm. It would be a mistake to jump to conclusions.

Mr Rumbles mentioned the scientists. I am reluctant to impose any more work on the scientists at the Marine Laboratory in Aberdeen. They have a lot on their plates because of different problems that have arisen recently, but it would be good if everybody involved had as much information as possible about the way in which the problem has been addressed so that we can tackle it more efficiently.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2085E206P337C714080", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Infectious Salmon Anaemia", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27229, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 407.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 407.0, "ID": 27229, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Munro, John Farquhar", "ID": 2085, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ross, Skye and Inverness West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Farquhar Munro", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr John Munro (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 475.0, "ContributionID": 714080, "EditedText": "My question follows on from Jamie Stone's. Will the minister confirm that the financial package of support accorded to the salmon farming industry, on which he made a statement some weeks ago and which is being administered by Highlands and Islands Enterprise, does not require matching funding from the industry? If it does not, will he tell that to his colleagues in Highlands and Islands Enterprise, who have taken a contrary view?", "EditedTextHTML": "My question follows on from Jamie Stone's. Will the minister confirm that the financial package of support accorded to the salmon farming industry, on which he made a statement some weeks ago and which is being administered by Highlands and Islands Enterprise, does not require matching funding from the industry? If it does not, will he tell that to his colleagues in

Highlands and Islands Enterprise, who have taken a contrary view?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6388347+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2100E64P254C714081", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Infectious Salmon Anaemia", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27229, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 407.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 407.0, "ID": 27229, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Home Robertson, John", "ID": 2100, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Lothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "John Home Robertson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Home Robertson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 477.0, "ContributionID": 714081, "EditedText": "Disbursement of the money is up to Highlands and Islands Enterprise. There are some misunderstandings about the question of matching funding. The original proposal on this package, which was discussed many months ago, mentioned a requirement on the industry for matching funding—in other words, a levy on the industry to match cash put in by the Scottish Executive to help to restart companies affected by ISA. Evidently, that was not realistic, because the industry was not in the position to fund a levy of that nature, so we have simply been putting the money, with no strings attached, in the direction of Highlands and Islands Enterprise, so that it can get on with running the scheme. That is not to say that we expect Highlands and Islands Enterprise to hand out 100 per cent grants. It is unusual for HIE to provide funding on that basis—the proportion might be 50 per cent, but it might be more or less. Question, That the meeting be now adjourned until 2.30 pm today, put and agreed to.—Patricia Ferguson.", "EditedTextHTML": "Disbursement of the money is up to Highlands and Islands Enterprise. There are some misunderstandings about the question of matching funding.

The original proposal on this package, which was discussed many months ago, mentioned a requirement on the industry for matching funding—in other words, a levy on the industry to match cash put in by the Scottish Executive to help to restart companies affected by ISA. Evidently, that was not realistic, because the industry was not in the position to fund a levy of that nature, so we have simply been putting the money, with no strings attached, in the direction of Highlands and Islands Enterprise, so that it can get on with running the scheme. That is not to say that we expect Highlands and Islands Enterprise to hand out 100 per cent grants. It is unusual for HIE to provide funding on that basis—the proportion might be 50 per cent, but it might be more or less.

Question, That the meeting be now adjourned until 2.30 pm today, put and agreed to.—[Patricia Ferguson.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6388347+00:00" }, { "ID": "C714082", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Infectious Salmon Anaemia", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27229, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 407.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 407.0, "ID": 27229, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 479.0, "ContributionID": 714082, "EditedText": "Meeting adjourned at 12:30.", "EditedTextHTML": "Meeting adjourned at 12:30.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6388347+00:00" }, { "ID": "C714083", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Infectious Salmon Anaemia", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27229, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 407.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 407.0, "ID": 27229, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 481.0, "ContributionID": 714083, "EditedText": "On resuming—", "EditedTextHTML": "On resuming—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6388347+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C714084", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Time for Reflection", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27230, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 482.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 482.0, "ID": 27230, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 483.0, "ContributionID": 714084, "EditedText": "It is a particular pleasure to welcome the moderator of the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland, the Right Reverend John Cairns, to lead our last time for reflection before Christmas. I take this opportunity to renew our thanks to you, moderator, for allowing us to use this splendid chamber—we are feeling very much at home.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is a particular pleasure to welcome the moderator of the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland, the Right Reverend John Cairns, to lead our last time for reflection before Christmas.

I take this opportunity to renew our thanks to you, moderator, for allowing us to use this splendid chamber—we are feeling very much at home.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6388347+00:00" }, { "ID": "C714085", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Time for Reflection", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27230, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 482.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 482.0, "ID": 27230, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "The Right Reverend John B Cairns (Moderator of the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland) ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Right Reverend John B Cairns (Moderator of the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 485.0, "ContributionID": 714085, "EditedText": "I would like to open by expressing the privilege that I really do feel in being invited to lead this time for reflection— almost in my own home. I offer you two poems and a prayer. The first poem is by Maya Angelou, a black American whose spirit never broke despite abuse, rejection and violence. In her new-found confidence, she rejoices, even if some are a little offended. I see some resonances of Scotland past and present in this poem, \"Still I Rise\". \"You may write me down in history With your bitter, twisted lies, You may trod me in the very dirt But still, like dust, I'll rise.Does my sassiness upset you? Why are you beset with gloom? 'Cause I walk like I've got oil wells Pumping in my living room.Just like moons and like suns, With the certainty of tides, Just like hopes springing high, Still I'll rise.Did you want to see me broken? Bowed head and lowered eyes? Shoulders falling down like teardrops, Weakened by my soulful cries.Does my haughtiness offend you? Don't you take it awful hard ‘Cause I laugh like I've got gold mines Diggin' in my own back yard.You may shoot me with your words, You may cut me with your eyes, You may kill me with your hatefulness, But still, like air, I'll rise.Does my sexiness upset you? Does it come as a surpriseThat I dance like I've got diamondsAt the meeting of my thighs?Out of the huts of history's shameI riseUp from a past that's rooted in painI riseI'm a black ocean, leaping and wide,Welling and swelling I bear in the tide.Leaving behind nights of terror and fearI riseInto a daybreak that's wondrously clearI riseBringing the gifts that my ancestors gave,I am the dream and the hope of the slave.I riseI riseI rise.\"I will now read a very short poem by Raymond Carver. It is the last in a book of poems which he wrote while he was facing death from cancer, at the age of 50. I believe that it reveals the deepest need of any man or woman: to be loved. For Christians, Christmas is the ultimate assurance that we are so loved; others find assurance of that kind in other ways. The poem is called \"Late Fragment\". \"And did you get what you wanted from this life, even so? I did.And what did you want?To call myself beloved, to feel myself beloved on the earth.\" Shall we pray.We pray for the wellbeing of the world and all its peoples. We pray for those who rebuild where things have been destroyed; for those who fight hunger, poverty and disease; for those who have power to bring change for the better and to renew hope. In the life of our world, may goodness grow.We pray for our own country and its people; for those who fulfil representational, legislative, executive and caring roles in its life; for our Queen and her family; for those who frame our laws and shape our common life; for those who keep the peace and administer justice; for those who teach; for those who heal; for all who serve the community. In the life of our land, may understanding grow.We pray for people in need: for those for whom life is a bitter struggle; for those whose lives are clouded by death or loss, by pain or disability, by discouragement or fear, by shame or rejection, by lack of self-esteem. In the lives of those in need, may hope and potential be realised. We pray for ourselves and for those whom we love: that we find a unity of spirit and purpose; when we are fearful, may we find courage; when tempted by the wrong, find power to resist; when anxious and worried, find calm and peace; when weary in our work, new energy and inspiration. In our lives, may love be found.May you be blessed by all the good that this season ofChristmas represents and your lives be touched with its promise, its peace, its love and its joy. Amen.", "EditedTextHTML": "I would like to open by expressing the privilege that I really do feel in being invited to lead this time for reflection— almost in my own home.

I offer you two poems and a prayer. The first poem is by Maya Angelou, a black American whose spirit never broke despite abuse, rejection and violence. In her new-found confidence, she rejoices, even if some are a little offended. I see some resonances of Scotland past and present in this poem, \"Still I Rise\".

\"You may write me down in history With your bitter, twisted lies, You may trod me in the very dirt But still, like dust, I'll rise.

Does my sassiness upset you? Why are you beset with gloom? 'Cause I walk like I've got oil wells Pumping in my living room.

Just like moons and like suns, With the certainty of tides, Just like hopes springing high, Still I'll rise.

Did you want to see me broken? Bowed head and lowered eyes? Shoulders falling down like teardrops, Weakened by my soulful cries.

Does my haughtiness offend you? Don't you take it awful hard ‘Cause I laugh like I've got gold mines Diggin' in my own back yard.

You may shoot me with your words, You may cut me with your eyes, You may kill me with your hatefulness, But still, like air, I'll rise.

Does my sexiness upset you? Does it come as a surprise

That I dance like I've got diamonds

At the meeting of my thighs?

Out of the huts of history's shame

I rise

Up from a past that's rooted in pain

I rise

I'm a black ocean, leaping and wide,

Welling and swelling I bear in the tide.

Leaving behind nights of terror and fear

I rise

Into a daybreak that's wondrously clear

I rise

Bringing the gifts that my ancestors gave,

I am the dream and the hope of the slave.

I rise

I rise

I rise.\"

I will now read a very short poem by Raymond Carver. It is the last in a book of poems which he wrote while he was facing death from cancer, at the age of 50. I believe that it reveals the deepest need of any man or woman: to be loved. For Christians, Christmas is the ultimate assurance that we are so loved; others find assurance of that kind in other ways. The poem is called \"Late Fragment\".

\"And did you get what you wanted from this life, even so?

I did.

And what did you want?

To call myself beloved, to feel myself beloved on the earth.\"

Shall we pray.

We pray for the wellbeing of the world and all its peoples. We pray for those who rebuild where things have been destroyed; for those who fight hunger, poverty and disease; for those who have power to bring change for the better and to renew hope.

In the life of our world, may goodness grow.

We pray for our own country and its people; for those who fulfil representational, legislative, executive and caring roles in its life; for our Queen and her family; for those who frame our laws and shape our common life; for those who keep the peace and administer justice; for those who teach; for those who heal; for all who serve the community.

In the life of our land, may understanding grow.

We pray for people in need: for those for whom life is a bitter struggle; for those whose lives are clouded by death or loss, by pain or disability, by discouragement or fear, by shame or rejection, by lack of self-esteem.

In the lives of those in need, may hope and potential be realised.

We pray for ourselves and for those whom we love: that we find a unity of spirit and purpose; when we are fearful, may we find courage; when tempted by the wrong, find power to resist; when anxious and worried, find calm and peace; when weary in our work, new energy and inspiration.

In our lives, may love be found.

May you be blessed by all the good that this season of

Christmas represents and your lives be touched with its promise, its peace, its love and its joy. Amen.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6388347+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2185E120P328C714094", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27231, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 487.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 487.0, "ID": 27231, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Brown, Robert", "ID": 2185, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robert Brown", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robert Brown (Glasgow) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 506.0, "ContributionID": 714094, "EditedText": "Will Roseanna Cunningham tell us where that counsel's opinion came from?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Roseanna Cunningham tell us where that counsel's opinion came from?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6388347+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1863E284P532C714095", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27231, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 487.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 487.0, "ID": 27231, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Cunningham, Roseanna", "ID": 1863, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Perth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Roseanna Cunningham", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Roseanna Cunningham: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 508.0, "ContributionID": 714095, "EditedText": "The instruction was by Scottish Environment LINK. Other points of detail emerged that were more or less undecided—I was going to say controversial, but that would be the wrong word to use. Those included the question of payment of arrears of feuduty, the long lead time before the abolition of the feudal system, payment of compensation for the extinction of feuduty, and the limit on the length of commercial leases. Some of those points will no doubt be dealt with in more detail by other speakers this afternoon. I shall now speak in my other persona as the shadow Minister for Justice, and echo the remarks that I made last week. I said then that the abolition of feudal tenure was a key commitment of the Scottish National party's land reform policy in the run-up to the elections in May. It is a testament to the widely expressed need for such reform that three of the four major parties in the chamber were committed to a similar bill. That allows us to proceed with broad support. The bill is integral to any process of land reform and would always have been the first piece of legislation in any package of reform. It should be carefully considered in preparing the groundwork for future measures. In that spirit, the SNP shares some of the concerns about the total omission of any reference to the public interest in the bill. Effectively, the bill introduces a form of absolute ownership, with which many people might have problems. It runs counter to the belief that the people of Scotland have ultimate ownership of the land. That principle would give us the ability to run public interest arguments as and when necessary. Andy Wightman, who has a long track record and a great deal of credibility in that policy area, expressed his concern that, without some recognition of the public interest, we might find ourselves bound more tightly in the future, in what we can and cannot do, despite there being a demonstrable social or environmental need. Scotland should not become a series of parcels of land in the absolute ownership of individuals, organisations, offshore trusts and charities. The public interest should be explicitly enshrined somewhere as a principle, so that in future, recourse can be had to that principle in the courts if need be. Whether the Crown's ultimate superiority did protect the public interest in the past, the fact is that landed interests believed that to be the case, at least in regard to planning law. Without that belief, the resistance to interference in their ownership would have been greater. By omitting to include a public interest provision in the current proposals for land reform, do we not run the danger that in future such resistance will not only be greater, but might be successful? I ask the minister to comment on the fears that the lack of a legally defined public interest provision might have an impact on future planning controls or compulsory purchases which, by their nature, are based on public interest. Frankly, the matter can easily be dealt with by the inclusion of a res publica clause, which would acknowledge the public interest through the recognition of the ultimate ownership of Scottish land by the people of Scotland. I refer back to some of the comments in counsel's opinion in respect of the Scottish Law Commission's draft section in its original bill. This argument may sound academic, but I remind members of the heated debate over the extent to which the multilateral agreement on investment would cause difficulty in otherwise domestic decision-making processes. In addition, the World Trade Organisation talks in Seattle similarly reminded us of the need to ensure that our legal concepts are clear cut. I will now refer to other matters. The minister will be aware that a number of parliamentary questions have been lodged in my name, which seek more detailed information on who, and how many, will have to pay compensation and backdated feuduties under the legislation. The questions also attempt to establish who will benefit from the compensation. We are concerned that the legislation will leave the way open for clever operators to exploit aspects of feudality that have lapsed, the financial potential of which has escaped their owners and the general population. Anyone who has had to deal with the fall-out from Brian Hamilton's activities will be well aware of the distress that can be caused. It would be unfortunate if we opened the door to individuals to act for groups of clients who have neglected, forgotten or are ignorant of their rights. The last thing that we need is a raider of the lost feus appearing on the scene. As a result, we wonder whether it would be more appropriate to cap the compensation that is payable. Equally, we should stipulate that payments will not be made unless there is proof that the income from the vassal has been a significant portion of the superior's income. Those changes would target people such as the Duke of Buccleuch, or large corporations, who would be able to claim compensation only if they gave a full statement of their income, and proved that the loss of feu income would cause them financial hardship. At the same time, the measures would protect groups such as the Church of Scotland which, as I understand it, relies heavily on feu income. They would keep out those who have not claimed feuduties in recent years, but who plan to use the legislation to catch up on payments. Indeed, I would go further. Compensation could be made dependent on the provision of information, which brings me to the third area that I wish to address, a land information system. Tying the payment of compensation to registering land interests in Scotland would provide additional information for public consumption. That information could be extended if we used the opportunity afforded by the bill to review the availability of information relating to ownership of, use of, development of and access to land in Scotland. Eventually, we could have a fully comprehensive land information system for Scotland. Before anyone asks where the money will come from, I suggest that the compensation payments owed to Government departments be paid directly into the Scottish consolidated fund as a contribution to land development projects such as the land information system. As I said at the outset, the bill is broadly similar to that which the SNP would have wanted in its land reform package. However, there are ways in which it could be made even better and, indeed, in which it could be—even more—part of the Executive's overall reform. I know that the Executive has left some matters open to further consultation and debate, and has not closed its ears to other changes. We are grateful for the Executive's input at various points during the committee's taking of evidence and we note that the Executive has responded positively to some of the concerns of the Subordinate Legislation Committee. I hope, therefore, that the Executive will be able to respond as positively to some of the proposals that I have raised today and, for that reason, I look forward to hearing the minister's closing speech.", "EditedTextHTML": "The instruction was by Scottish Environment LINK.

Other points of detail emerged that were more or less undecided—I was going to say controversial, but that would be the wrong word to use. Those included the question of payment of arrears of feuduty, the long lead time before the abolition of the feudal system, payment of compensation for the extinction of feuduty, and the limit on the length of commercial leases. Some of those points will no doubt be dealt with in more detail by other speakers this afternoon.

I shall now speak in my other persona as the shadow Minister for Justice, and echo the remarks that I made last week. I said then that the abolition of feudal tenure was a key commitment of the Scottish National party's land reform policy in the run-up to the elections in May. It is a testament to the widely expressed need for such reform that three of the four major parties in the chamber were committed to a similar bill. That allows us to proceed with broad support.

The bill is integral to any process of land reform and would always have been the first piece of legislation in any package of reform. It should be carefully considered in preparing the groundwork for future measures.

In that spirit, the SNP shares some of the concerns about the total omission of any reference to the public interest in the bill. Effectively, the bill introduces a form of absolute ownership, with which many people might have problems. It runs counter to the belief that the people of Scotland have ultimate ownership of the land. That principle would give us the ability to run public interest arguments as and when necessary. Andy Wightman, who has a long track record and a great deal of credibility in that policy area, expressed his concern that, without some recognition of the public interest, we might find ourselves bound more tightly in the future, in what we can and cannot do, despite there being a demonstrable social or environmental need.

Scotland should not become a series of parcels of land in the absolute ownership of individuals, organisations, offshore trusts and charities. The public interest should be explicitly enshrined somewhere as a principle, so that in future, recourse can be had to that principle in the courts if need be. Whether the Crown's ultimate superiority did protect the public interest in the past, the fact is that landed interests believed that to be the case, at least in regard to planning law. Without that belief, the resistance to interference in their ownership would have been greater.

By omitting to include a public interest provision in the current proposals for land reform, do we not run the danger that in future such resistance will not only be greater, but might be successful? I ask the minister to comment on the fears that the lack of a legally defined public interest provision might have an impact on future planning controls or compulsory purchases which, by their nature, are based on public interest. Frankly, the matter can easily be dealt with by the inclusion of a res publica clause, which would acknowledge the public interest through the recognition of the ultimate ownership of Scottish land by the people of Scotland. I refer back to some of the comments in counsel's opinion in respect of the Scottish Law Commission's draft section in its original bill.

This argument may sound academic, but I remind members of the heated debate over the extent to which the multilateral agreement on investment would cause difficulty in otherwise domestic decision-making processes. In addition, the World Trade Organisation talks in Seattle similarly reminded us of the need to ensure that our legal concepts are clear cut.

I will now refer to other matters. The minister will be aware that a number of parliamentary questions have been lodged in my name, which seek more detailed information on who, and how many, will have to pay compensation and backdated feuduties under the legislation. The questions also attempt to establish who will benefit from the compensation. We are concerned that the legislation will leave the way open for clever operators to exploit aspects of feudality that have lapsed, the financial potential of which has escaped their owners and the general population. Anyone who has had to deal with the fall-out from Brian Hamilton's activities will be well aware of the distress that can be caused. It would be unfortunate if we opened the door to individuals to act for groups of clients who have neglected, forgotten or are ignorant of their rights. The last thing that we need is a raider of the lost feus appearing on the scene.

As a result, we wonder whether it would be more appropriate to cap the compensation that is payable. Equally, we should stipulate that payments will not be made unless there is proof that the income from the vassal has been a significant portion of the superior's income. Those changes would target people such as the Duke of Buccleuch, or large corporations, who would be able to claim compensation only if they gave a full

statement of their income, and proved that the loss of feu income would cause them financial hardship. At the same time, the measures would protect groups such as the Church of Scotland which, as I understand it, relies heavily on feu income. They would keep out those who have not claimed feuduties in recent years, but who plan to use the legislation to catch up on payments.

Indeed, I would go further. Compensation could be made dependent on the provision of information, which brings me to the third area that I wish to address, a land information system. Tying the payment of compensation to registering land interests in Scotland would provide additional information for public consumption. That information could be extended if we used the opportunity afforded by the bill to review the availability of information relating to ownership of, use of, development of and access to land in Scotland. Eventually, we could have a fully comprehensive land information system for Scotland. Before anyone asks where the money will come from, I suggest that the compensation payments owed to Government departments be paid directly into the Scottish consolidated fund as a contribution to land development projects such as the land information system.

As I said at the outset, the bill is broadly similar to that which the SNP would have wanted in its land reform package. However, there are ways in which it could be made even better and, indeed, in which it could be—even more—part of the Executive's overall reform.

I know that the Executive has left some matters open to further consultation and debate, and has not closed its ears to other changes. We are grateful for the Executive's input at various points during the committee's taking of evidence and we note that the Executive has responded positively to some of the concerns of the Subordinate Legislation Committee. I hope, therefore, that the Executive will be able to respond as positively to some of the proposals that I have raised today and, for that reason, I look forward to hearing the minister's closing speech.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6388347+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C714161", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27234, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 650.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 650.0, "ID": 27234, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 660.0, "ContributionID": 714161, "EditedText": "There will be a division.", "EditedTextHTML": "There will be a division.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6388347+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C714098", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27231, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 487.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 487.0, "ID": 27231, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie (Lothians) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 516.0, "ContributionID": 714098, "EditedText": "Following her remarks about exploitative superiors, will the member condemn the actions of those Labour councils that exploit citizens by demanding payments for superiors' consent?", "EditedTextHTML": "Following her remarks about exploitative superiors, will the member condemn the actions of those Labour councils that exploit citizens by demanding payments for superiors' consent?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6388347+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C714137", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27231, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 487.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 487.0, "ID": 27231, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 611.0, "ContributionID": 714137, "EditedText": "You have another minute.", "EditedTextHTML": "You have another minute.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6388347+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C714104", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27231, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 487.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 487.0, "ID": 27231, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Jim Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 531.0, "ContributionID": 714104, "EditedText": "As the Parliament knows, Mr Adam Ingram has indicated a willingness to bring forward a members' bill on the issue and the Executive is willing to co-operate with him on that bill.", "EditedTextHTML": "As the Parliament knows, Mr Adam Ingram has indicated a willingness to bring forward a members' bill on the issue and the Executive is willing to co-operate with him on that bill.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6388347+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2185E120P328C714107", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27231, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 487.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 487.0, "ID": 27231, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Brown, Robert", "ID": 2185, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robert Brown", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robert Brown (Glasgow) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 539.0, "ContributionID": 714107, "EditedText": "I should perhaps declare an interest, in case it is relevant. I am an associate of Ross Harper & Murphy and a member of the Law Society of Scotland. There is bound to be something in all this lot that will cause them concern. I suspect that the Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill is not a subject on the tip of people's tongues in every pub in the land, but it is in a number of ways a momentous, interesting and significant bill. First, it is a classic example of the need for this Parliament to be involved in the central issue of law reform. The bill came from the Scottish Law Commission. At Westminster it would probably have languished on a shelf. If and when it received parliamentary time, it would probably have had a grudging and peripheral passage into law. Here, the bill is a central part of the Scottish Executive's legislative programme and can be readily consulted on and properly scrutinised. I do not quite understand the problem that the members of the Justice and Home Affairs Committee have had with the other forthcoming bills. The bill seems to be reasonably self- contained, although every bill has overlaps to others. Nothing was said in the debate that led me to understand the nature of the problem. I am not a member of the Justice and Home Affairs Committee, but I knew that a law of the tenement bill was in the offing. Secondly, the bill is a testament to how the law evolves over time. At party conferences, we often hear demands for the abolition of this or the repeal of that. This bill, with its grand title, aims to abolish the feudal system, as the first clause says. However, the register of sasines—a feudal- sounding device—will continue. Prohibitions against glue factories and slaughterhouses may mutate from being feudal conditions into real burdens. The Crown's prerogative rights over the foreshore will also remain intact. Notwithstanding Sir Crispin Agnew's views on the matter, public interest in land is a genuine issue. This may or may not be a real issue in today's debate, but the implications for the Human Rights Act 1998 are cause for concern. Compensation for the loss of land rights could be put right if we included a specific reference to the public interest in land in the bill. If nothing else, that would reflect the traditional Scottish view that there are a variety of interests in land, rather than absolute ownership, as has evolved in England over a number of years. The bill is a link to the old Scots Parliament, which was abolished in 1707. Traditionally, nothing was more important than land ownership. Almost all the business of the old Parliament was to do with aspects of land ownership, such as title, possession and succession to land. The bill will amend or repeal no less than 10 acts of the pre- union Parliament, which is something of a record. At the end of the day, the important thing is that the law is certain, reasonably comprehensible and achieves a fair and workable system between seller and purchaser and between neighbours, in the interests of the local community. Many of the conditions attached to titles are hugely important in maintaining building lines, keeping the character of a neighbourhood and regulating activities in properties in the public interest. Despite what a number of people have said, that is far more important in urban than in rural situations.The important thing is for conditions to be good and workable, not whether they are feudal or non- feudal. We should not be led astray by the old- fashioned language. Where people have bought council houses, for example, there are huge problems with access rights in terraced houses whose titles were not drawn up as well as they might have been. The bill is symbolic and will be useful, but it is only part of a wider scheme of reform, which includes the forthcoming bill on the law of the tenement. We should go ahead with the bill. Let us bring Scotland into the modern century, but without too much regard to the phraseology and rather more regard to the substance of what we are trying to do by bringing into being in Scotland a modern system of property law for the 21st century.", "EditedTextHTML": "I should perhaps declare an interest, in case it is relevant. I am an associate of Ross Harper & Murphy and a member of the Law Society of Scotland. There is bound to be something in all this lot that will cause them concern.

I suspect that the Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill is not a subject on the tip of people's tongues in every pub in the land, but it is in a number of ways a momentous, interesting and significant bill.

First, it is a classic example of the need for this Parliament to be involved in the central issue of law reform. The bill came from the Scottish Law Commission. At Westminster it would probably have languished on a shelf. If and when it received parliamentary time, it would probably have had a grudging and peripheral passage into law. Here, the bill is a central part of the Scottish Executive's legislative programme and can be readily consulted on and properly scrutinised.

I do not quite understand the problem that the members of the Justice and Home Affairs Committee have had with the other forthcoming bills. The bill seems to be reasonably self- contained, although every bill has overlaps to others. Nothing was said in the debate that led me to understand the nature of the problem. I am not a member of the Justice and Home Affairs Committee, but I knew that a law of the tenement bill was in the offing.

Secondly, the bill is a testament to how the law evolves over time. At party conferences, we often hear demands for the abolition of this or the repeal of that. This bill, with its grand title, aims to abolish the feudal system, as the first clause says. However, the register of sasines—a feudal- sounding device—will continue. Prohibitions against glue factories and slaughterhouses may mutate from being feudal conditions into real burdens. The Crown's prerogative rights over the foreshore will also remain intact.

Notwithstanding Sir Crispin Agnew's views on the matter, public interest in land is a genuine issue. This may or may not be a real issue in today's debate, but the implications for the Human Rights Act 1998 are cause for concern. Compensation for the loss of land rights could be put right if we included a specific reference to the public interest in land in the bill. If nothing else, that would reflect the traditional Scottish view that there are a variety of interests in land, rather than absolute ownership, as has evolved in England over a number of years.

The bill is a link to the old Scots Parliament, which was abolished in 1707. Traditionally, nothing was more important than land ownership. Almost all the business of the old Parliament was to do with aspects of land ownership, such as title, possession and succession to land. The bill will amend or repeal no less than 10 acts of the pre- union Parliament, which is something of a record.

At the end of the day, the important thing is that the law is certain, reasonably comprehensible and achieves a fair and workable system between seller and purchaser and between neighbours, in the interests of the local community. Many of the conditions attached to titles are hugely important in maintaining building lines, keeping the character of a neighbourhood and regulating activities in properties in the public interest. Despite what a number of people have said, that is far more

important in urban than in rural situations.

The important thing is for conditions to be good and workable, not whether they are feudal or non- feudal. We should not be led astray by the old- fashioned language. Where people have bought council houses, for example, there are huge problems with access rights in terraced houses whose titles were not drawn up as well as they might have been. The bill is symbolic and will be useful, but it is only part of a wider scheme of reform, which includes the forthcoming bill on the law of the tenement.

We should go ahead with the bill. Let us bring Scotland into the modern century, but without too much regard to the phraseology and rather more regard to the substance of what we are trying to do by bringing into being in Scotland a modern system of property law for the 21st century.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6388347+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1888E265P358C714138", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27231, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 487.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 487.0, "ID": 27231, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morgan, Alasdair", "ID": 1888, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Galloway and Upper Nithsdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morgan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alasdair Morgan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 613.0, "ContributionID": 714138, "EditedText": "Fergus Ewing raised some problems regarding the 100 m rule in rural areas. I hope that the minister can say either that his fears are unfounded or that they will be addressed in a review of the legislation. Fiona Hyslop ingeniously identified the possibility of using the bill to tackle a problem in relation to repossession orders. That is an interesting suggestion and I will be interested to hear whether the Executive might consider bringing that forward. As the minister said, we must be grateful to the Scottish Law Commission for its work on this issue. If reading the bill is difficult, it must have been a hundred times more difficult to write it. I welcome the bill; it is an overdue reform of our anachronistic legislation and it is part of a wider reform relating to land.", "EditedTextHTML": "Fergus Ewing raised some problems regarding the 100 m rule in rural areas. I hope that the minister can say either that his fears are unfounded or that they will be addressed in a review of the legislation.

Fiona Hyslop ingeniously identified the possibility of using the bill to tackle a problem in relation to repossession orders. That is an interesting suggestion and I will be interested to hear whether the Executive might consider bringing that forward.

As the minister said, we must be grateful to the Scottish Law Commission for its work on this issue. If reading the bill is difficult, it must have been a hundred times more difficult to write it. I welcome the bill; it is an overdue reform of our anachronistic legislation and it is part of a wider reform relating to land.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6388347+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1901E57P277C714111", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27231, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 487.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 487.0, "ID": 27231, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Allan", "ID": 1901, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Cunninghame North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Allan Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Allan Wilson (Cunninghame North) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 549.0, "ContributionID": 714111, "EditedText": "In preparation for this brief speech, I read the Scottish Parliament information centre note on the abolition of feudal tenure. It begins: \"Feudal tenure is difficult for non-lawyers to understand, with the obscure concepts and terminology making it particularly inaccessible.\" As a non-lawyer and lesser mortal, somebody who spent most of their working life arguing with employers' lawyers, I believe that, as Jim Wallace said, the rationale for the abolition of feudal tenure is widely understood and widely supported by ordinary people as well as by lawyers. That rationale, simply put, is that feudalism is outdated, gives rise to injustice and is a legal relic of a society with a regulation and use of land that is no longer relevant and should, as Tricia Marwick said, no longer play a part in the modern Scotland that we are trying to build. I suspect that, unlike many MSPs, I have had a fairly hefty post bag on the matter, which has resulted in continuing correspondence with the Deputy Minister for Justice. In large part, that is because the Isle of Arran is in my constituency and feudal abuses there are well documented. There have been many instances of feudal superiors charging large sums of money for granting consent to breaches of feuing conditions. The statutory amendments and modifications to the feudal system that Phil Gallie and others mentioned have had an effect on Arran, as elsewhere. In particular, the Conveyancing and Feudal Reform (Scotland) Act 1970 provided for the Lands Tribunal to adjudicate unresolved disputes about land obligations; in some circumstances, it has varied or changed those obligations. The Land Tenure Reform (Scotland) Act 1974 prohibited new feuduties and provided for the redemption of existing feus. Neither statute abolished those land obligations, however, and the feudal superior continues to have the right to enforce feudal conditions. On Arran, that has been skilfully exploited by the descendants of the 12th Duke of Hamilton, who, although they no longer own the entire island as they did in the previous century, are fastidious in their pursuit of income from their position as feudal superior, charging tidy sums for agreement to prospective developments. One descendant, Charles Fforde, owner of the 16,000 acre Arran Estates, hit the headlines a few years back for proposing to charge geological students who came to the island to study granite formations. When the Church of Scotland in Brodick planned an extension to the kirk hall, £800 was demanded. That practice is not limited to Arran Estates. When it was discovered that the Free Church at Shiskine had never taken out a feu, the Church was billed for £15,000, which the parishioners paid. Splitting feus can also prove a costly business for home owners on the island. Buying or improving a property can mean a bill of between £500 to £1,000 from the feudal superior. It is common practice, well beyond Arran, to demand payment in return for granting consent to a variation of feudal conditions, which is one of the main arguments for abolition of the feudal system. The bill will end such abuses, and for that reason I commend it to the Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "In preparation for this brief speech, I read the Scottish Parliament information centre note on the abolition of feudal tenure. It begins:

\"Feudal tenure is difficult for non-lawyers to understand, with the obscure concepts and terminology making it particularly inaccessible.\"

As a non-lawyer and lesser mortal, somebody who spent most of their working life arguing with

employers' lawyers, I believe that, as Jim Wallace said, the rationale for the abolition of feudal tenure is widely understood and widely supported by ordinary people as well as by lawyers. That rationale, simply put, is that feudalism is outdated, gives rise to injustice and is a legal relic of a society with a regulation and use of land that is no longer relevant and should, as Tricia Marwick said, no longer play a part in the modern Scotland that we are trying to build.

I suspect that, unlike many MSPs, I have had a fairly hefty post bag on the matter, which has resulted in continuing correspondence with the Deputy Minister for Justice. In large part, that is because the Isle of Arran is in my constituency and feudal abuses there are well documented. There have been many instances of feudal superiors charging large sums of money for granting consent to breaches of feuing conditions.

The statutory amendments and modifications to the feudal system that Phil Gallie and others mentioned have had an effect on Arran, as elsewhere. In particular, the Conveyancing and Feudal Reform (Scotland) Act 1970 provided for the Lands Tribunal to adjudicate unresolved disputes about land obligations; in some circumstances, it has varied or changed those obligations. The Land Tenure Reform (Scotland) Act 1974 prohibited new feuduties and provided for the redemption of existing feus. Neither statute abolished those land obligations, however, and the feudal superior continues to have the right to enforce feudal conditions.

On Arran, that has been skilfully exploited by the descendants of the 12th Duke of Hamilton, who, although they no longer own the entire island as they did in the previous century, are fastidious in their pursuit of income from their position as feudal superior, charging tidy sums for agreement to prospective developments. One descendant, Charles Fforde, owner of the 16,000 acre Arran Estates, hit the headlines a few years back for proposing to charge geological students who came to the island to study granite formations. When the Church of Scotland in Brodick planned an extension to the kirk hall, £800 was demanded. That practice is not limited to Arran Estates. When it was discovered that the Free Church at Shiskine had never taken out a feu, the Church was billed for £15,000, which the parishioners paid. Splitting feus can also prove a costly business for home owners on the island. Buying or improving a property can mean a bill of between £500 to £1,000 from the feudal superior.

It is common practice, well beyond Arran, to demand payment in return for granting consent to a variation of feudal conditions, which is one of the main arguments for abolition of the feudal system. The bill will end such abuses, and for that reason I commend it to the Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6388347+00:00" }, { "ID": "C714145", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill: Financial Resolution ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27232, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 628.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 628.0, "ID": 27232, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 629.0, "ContributionID": 714145, "EditedText": "Motion moved,", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion moved,

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6388347+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1814E135P516C714119", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27231, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 487.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 487.0, "ID": 27231, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Fabiani, Linda", "ID": 1814, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Linda Fabiani", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Linda Fabiani (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 568.0, "ContributionID": 714119, "EditedText": "I am genuinely glad to take part in this debate. One of the most exciting elements of our reconvened Parliament was the realisation that we, in Scotland, could at last address the issue of land reform. The abolition of feudal tenure is long overdue and, as previous speakers have stated, the Executive's initiative is warmly welcomed. Having worked in rural community development for some years, I would like to remind the Parliament that the concept of feudalism in our society goes beyond legislative issues. Abolishing this archaic legislation should be considered by us all as a step towards changing ingrained social attitudes. However, I want to raise some specific issues, which I ask members—particularly those on the Justice and Home Affairs Committee—to consider in their future deliberations. Sections 7 to 11 of the bill, which have already been touched on, relate to the abolition of feuduties that superiors are entitled to collect from their vassals and to the payment schemes that the bill will introduce. Often, feudal superiors have not bothered to collect their feuduties for some years, which has resulted in the accumulation of arrears. Owners often do not realise that, in law, they owe money. My concern is that the prospect of abolition may prompt feudal superiors summarily to demand payment of those arrears. I want to reinforce what the Justice and Home Affairs Committee has stated—that people who live in properties that are subject to feuduties that have been unclaimed for many years may find themselves presented with an unexpected demand for an amount of money that, to a person on a low income, could be substantial. For example, Tricia Marwick referred to the plight of the elderly. A feu of £60 a year may not sound much, but back-dated and with the current formula applied, the demand could cause acute financial difficulty and a prolonged period of indebtedness. The Executive has conceded that it cannot realistically quantify such amounts. The problem is so complex that, with the best will in the world, no one can estimate the total. By common consent, the purpose of this reform is to abolish the duty scheme and to end an archaic system. We must be careful that the bill does not unduly disadvantage those whom we are trying to help.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am genuinely glad to take part in this debate. One of the most exciting elements of our reconvened Parliament was the realisation that we, in Scotland, could at last address the issue of land reform. The abolition of feudal tenure is long overdue and, as previous speakers have stated, the Executive's initiative is warmly welcomed.

Having worked in rural community development for some years, I would like to remind the Parliament that the concept of feudalism in our society goes beyond legislative issues. Abolishing this archaic legislation should be considered by us all as a step towards changing ingrained social attitudes. However, I want to raise some specific issues, which I ask members—particularly those on the Justice and Home Affairs Committee—to consider in their future deliberations.

Sections 7 to 11 of the bill, which have already been touched on, relate to the abolition of feuduties that superiors are entitled to collect from their vassals and to the payment schemes that the bill will introduce. Often, feudal superiors have not bothered to collect their feuduties for some years, which has resulted in the accumulation of arrears. Owners often do not realise that, in law, they owe money.

My concern is that the prospect of abolition may prompt feudal superiors summarily to demand payment of those arrears. I want to reinforce what the Justice and Home Affairs Committee has stated—that people who live in properties that are subject to feuduties that have been unclaimed for many years may find themselves presented with an unexpected demand for an amount of money that, to a person on a low income, could be substantial. For example, Tricia Marwick referred to the plight of the elderly. A feu of £60 a year may not sound much, but back-dated and with the current formula applied, the demand could cause acute financial difficulty and a prolonged period of indebtedness.

The Executive has conceded that it cannot realistically quantify such amounts. The problem is so complex that, with the best will in the world, no one can estimate the total. By common consent, the purpose of this reform is to abolish the duty scheme and to end an archaic system. We must be careful that the bill does not unduly disadvantage those whom we are trying to help.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6388347+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C714140", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27231, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 487.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 487.0, "ID": 27231, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 618.0, "ContributionID": 714140, "EditedText": "You have nine minutes.", "EditedTextHTML": "You have nine minutes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6388347+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1873E89P171C714121", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27231, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 487.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 487.0, "ID": 27231, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jackson, Dr Sylvia", "ID": 1873, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Stirling" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sylvia Jackson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Sylvia Jackson (Stirling) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 574.0, "ContributionID": 714121, "EditedText": "I want to concentrate on an issue that has been raised by my constituents. It relates to concerns that have been expressed by home owners in sheltered retirement housing developments. In making my points, I realise that I may stray a little outside the debate on feudal tenure. I ask members to bear with me in this rather complex area. I want to highlight owners' lack of powers to approve or be consulted by managers on proposals for the maintenance and repair of their properties, service charges and inadequate accounts of expenditure. It was encouraging to learn from Jim Wallace, in a recent reply to my concerns that, under this bill to abolish the feudal system, the superior's rights will transfer to the residents. I am pleased that a working group has been set up to consider a voluntary code of management practice for owner- occupied sheltered and retirement housing in Scotland. The group includes representatives of developers, managers, owners and other interested organisations, such as Age Concern Scotland, Scottish Homes, the Scottish Federation of Housing Associations and so on, and was set up because of the number of complaints by owners in sheltered housing developments. The managers' powers are often derived from the fact that they are the feudal superior of the development or from conditions that are included in deeds of conditions. The remit of the working group is to address the proposal to introduce a voluntary code. I gather that it is expected that most management companies will abide by a voluntary code of practice. Where the body managing a sheltered housing development is a housing association, compliance will be mandatory as a condition of membership of the Scottish Federation of Housing Associations. Similarly, private sector companies that are members of the Property Managers Association will abide by the code. I have three questions. First, what are the implications for buyers of properties in housing developments whose management has not signed up to the voluntary code? The whole process of buying such a property—as I know only too well from going through it with a relative—is complex, and management issues might not be at the forefront of an older person's thoughts. Older people need to be protected from companies that will not sign up to a voluntary code. Is a mandatory code the only way in which to provide that protection? Secondly, could the minister say what feedback on the voluntary code has been received during the consultation period? Thirdly, could he give an indication of the timetable for either a voluntary or a mandatory code?", "EditedTextHTML": "I want to concentrate on an issue that has been raised by my constituents. It relates to concerns that have been expressed by home owners in sheltered retirement housing developments. In making my points, I realise that I may stray a little outside the debate on feudal tenure. I ask members to bear with me in this rather complex area.

I want to highlight owners' lack of powers to approve or be consulted by managers on proposals for the maintenance and repair of their properties, service charges and inadequate accounts of expenditure.

It was encouraging to learn from Jim Wallace, in a recent reply to my concerns that, under this bill to abolish the feudal system, the superior's rights will transfer to the residents. I am pleased that a working group has been set up to consider a voluntary code of management practice for owner- occupied sheltered and retirement housing in Scotland. The group includes representatives of developers, managers, owners and other interested organisations, such as Age Concern

Scotland, Scottish Homes, the Scottish Federation of Housing Associations and so on, and was set up because of the number of complaints by owners in sheltered housing developments. The managers' powers are often derived from the fact that they are the feudal superior of the development or from conditions that are included in deeds of conditions.

The remit of the working group is to address the proposal to introduce a voluntary code. I gather that it is expected that most management companies will abide by a voluntary code of practice. Where the body managing a sheltered housing development is a housing association, compliance will be mandatory as a condition of membership of the Scottish Federation of Housing Associations. Similarly, private sector companies that are members of the Property Managers Association will abide by the code.

I have three questions. First, what are the implications for buyers of properties in housing developments whose management has not signed up to the voluntary code? The whole process of buying such a property—as I know only too well from going through it with a relative—is complex, and management issues might not be at the forefront of an older person's thoughts. Older people need to be protected from companies that will not sign up to a voluntary code. Is a mandatory code the only way in which to provide that protection?

Secondly, could the minister say what feedback on the voluntary code has been received during the consultation period? Thirdly, could he give an indication of the timetable for either a voluntary or a mandatory code?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6388347+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C714133", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27231, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 487.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 487.0, "ID": 27231, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 602.0, "ContributionID": 714133, "EditedText": "You were two and a half minutes over time, in fact.", "EditedTextHTML": "You were two and a half minutes over time, in fact.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6388347+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1990E181P340C714126", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27231, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 487.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 487.0, "ID": 27231, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robson, Euan", "ID": 1990, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Roxburgh and Berwickshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Euan Robson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Euan Robson (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 587.0, "ContributionID": 714126, "EditedText": "As many members have said, the bill is welcome. According to the explanatory notes, it will repeal 46 acts. I am sure that the Minister for Justice knows them off by heart. The bill is part of a package. Although members have alluded to the difficulties of considering it without sight of the title conditions bill and the law of the tenement bill, it had to come first. To put it in layman's terms, we have to clear the site before building the new edifice. We will retain a few of the useful features of the old system, but the updating of Scots law is to be welcomed. There are four issues that I wish to concentrate on briefly. The first is the abolition of the feudal system. We should abolish the system, not just reform it. The Crown's paramount superiority should go and outright ownership should come in its stead. I have no objection to the incorporation of some form of public interest section in one of the later bills, but I have yet to hear what it would mean in practical terms. Given that the appointed day in this bill will be 18 months to two years down the line, there could be a seamless transition of public interest from the Crown as paramount superior to whatever replaces it as determined in other bills in the next two years. We may return to this issue during stage 2. It has been said that capping compensation would be sensible, but that might contravene the European convention on human rights. We should consider the people who buy feudal superiorities now or after enactment of the bill, and add a section to prevent their obtaining compensation. In other words, we could restrict the ability of the raiders of the lost feus, as Roseanna Cunningham put it, to claim compensation, but not interfere with those who depend on feuduties for their income, such as the Church of Scotland. The payment of arrears may be governed by the statute of limitations. I wonder what would be the practical effect of capping. Fergus Ewing alluded to section 17(7) and the 100 m rule. I do not share his concerns, because habitation is written into the section. We need to explore that issue in some detail at stage 2. There may be some grounds for reducing the figure to 50 m, for example, but I am not convinced by his case that the feudal system will continue by default because of the 100 m rule. On section 65, there is a strong case for accepting that the 125-year limit on commercial leases should be extended to 200 years; 125 years is beyond most people's lifespan, so I do not see the difficulty with making the limit 200 years. If it is felt that the introduction of a limit into the Scottish system is artificial, the 125-year limit would be reduced. If, however, the 125-year limit is accepted and there is some identifiable prejudice to the commercial property sector in Scotland, 200 years could be accepted. Having finished slightly early, Presiding Officer, I hope that I go into a different colour of book from the one that was mentioned earlier.", "EditedTextHTML": "As many members have said, the bill is welcome. According to the explanatory notes, it will repeal 46 acts. I am sure that the Minister for Justice knows them off by heart.

The bill is part of a package. Although members have alluded to the difficulties of considering it without sight of the title conditions bill and the law

of the tenement bill, it had to come first. To put it in layman's terms, we have to clear the site before building the new edifice. We will retain a few of the useful features of the old system, but the updating of Scots law is to be welcomed.

There are four issues that I wish to concentrate on briefly. The first is the abolition of the feudal system. We should abolish the system, not just reform it. The Crown's paramount superiority should go and outright ownership should come in its stead. I have no objection to the incorporation of some form of public interest section in one of the later bills, but I have yet to hear what it would mean in practical terms. Given that the appointed day in this bill will be 18 months to two years down the line, there could be a seamless transition of public interest from the Crown as paramount superior to whatever replaces it as determined in other bills in the next two years. We may return to this issue during stage 2.

It has been said that capping compensation would be sensible, but that might contravene the European convention on human rights. We should consider the people who buy feudal superiorities now or after enactment of the bill, and add a section to prevent their obtaining compensation. In other words, we could restrict the ability of the raiders of the lost feus, as Roseanna Cunningham put it, to claim compensation, but not interfere with those who depend on feuduties for their income, such as the Church of Scotland. The payment of arrears may be governed by the statute of limitations. I wonder what would be the practical effect of capping.

Fergus Ewing alluded to section 17(7) and the 100 m rule. I do not share his concerns, because habitation is written into the section. We need to explore that issue in some detail at stage 2. There may be some grounds for reducing the figure to 50 m, for example, but I am not convinced by his case that the feudal system will continue by default because of the 100 m rule.

On section 65, there is a strong case for accepting that the 125-year limit on commercial leases should be extended to 200 years; 125 years is beyond most people's lifespan, so I do not see the difficulty with making the limit 200 years. If it is felt that the introduction of a limit into the Scottish system is artificial, the 125-year limit would be reduced. If, however, the 125-year limit is accepted and there is some identifiable prejudice to the commercial property sector in Scotland, 200 years could be accepted.

Having finished slightly early, Presiding Officer, I hope that I go into a different colour of book from the one that was mentioned earlier.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6388347+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C714135", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27231, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 487.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 487.0, "ID": 27231, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Monteith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 607.0, "ContributionID": 714135, "EditedText": "Will the member confirm that Robert de Bruis was Norman French in origin?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member confirm that Robert de Bruis was Norman French in origin?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6388347+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C714128", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27231, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 487.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 487.0, "ID": 27231, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie (Lothians) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 592.0, "ContributionID": 714128, "EditedText": "It is indeed an irony that one of the first acts of the Scottish Parliament will, as my friend Brian Monteith said, be to abolish the feudal system of land tenure which—for all its faults—is distinctively Scottish. I always thought that one of the strongest arguments in favour of the Scottish Parliament was that it would help to preserve distinctive traditions such as our legal system. For someone like me, who spent 25 years in the legal profession before coming to the chamber, the end of the feudal system is an occasion for saying goodbye to some old friends—the more esoteric aspects of the system that people such as Fergus Ewing, Robert Brown, Christine Grahame, Roseanna Cunningham and I laboured to comprehend in our law classes at university. So it is goodbye to entails and—by section 53— goodbye to thirlage, a form of restrictive trade practice that I always thought particularly interesting. Saddest of all, it is goodbye to the kindly tenants of Lochmaben, an admirable body of people. I am surprised that they are being cast out in this manner, when their very name sounds like a social inclusion partnership. We are allowing them to pass without any reference to the tradition that they derived their heritable tenancies from grants made by King Robert the Bruce to his personal servants and their families. I am surprised that members of the Scottish National party—who are always telling us to remember Bannockburn—are prepared to cast such fine people into the legal dustbin with no further thought or comment. However, we accept that any legal system must adapt or atrophy. There is no doubt that feudalism has many faults and there have been many changes to the system over the years. Most recently, the Land Tenure Reform (Scotland) Act 1974 prevented the imposition of new feuduties and provided for compulsory redemption on sale and voluntary redemption at return dates. In conjunction with the pernicious effects of inflation, that has meant that feuduties, for years, have been dying a lingering death. It is only right and proper that the Parliament should finally put them down. Before members rush to condemn the feudal system out of hand, a number of factors ought to be remembered. We should remember that outright ownership of land does not mean licence to do as one pleases. There will still be a need for conditionality to be attached to the ownership of land; that was one of the strengths of the original system. We must be careful, in reforming our system, not to throw the baby out with the bath water. Indeed, the saving provisions in the bill have been constructed out of recognition of the value of the feudal system and of the fact that certain categories of burden are beneficial to our community. Those have been identified as common facilities burdens, neighbour burdens, conservation burdens and maritime burdens. I welcome the fact that those are to be preserved. Those sections of the bill will require careful examination in order that their utility is preserved for future generations of Scots. A number of concerns have been raised in the consultation process and are well recorded in the Justice and Home Affairs Committee's report. I welcome the minister's open mind on, for instance, the proposed limit on the length of commercial leases. We have to be careful on that, because although 125 years may seem like an eternity to us, that is not necessarily the case in terms of the lifetime of buildings and the investment in them by property companies. We should seek further evidence on the subject before finally determining a figure. We should also look to amend compensation, which is another area of concern. The evidence of the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors suggested that the proposed redemption factor is too high for today's market and the payment period of 10 years too long. I welcome Christine Grahame's call for a reduction in the multiplier and a shortening of the instalment payment period. The Executive should take up that suggestion and, if I may say so, ignore the suggestion of Pauline McNeill, who went in precisely the opposite direction by saying that the instalment facility should be extended. If we are going to put the feudal system down, let us do it neatly and tidily and in reasonable time. We must not prolong the collection-and-payment agony. In principle I am happy to support the bill to abolish the feudal system, but we should pay tribute to its achievements. It married private interest with public and communal interest—an achievement that I would have thought would make it a model for new Labour in its desperate search for the third way. The feudal system's most important function was as a system of development control. In that respect it has proved far more successful than many of our modern representatives in local government. It was, of course, the feudal system that created the architectural glories of Edinburgh's new town, but it was the Town and Country Planning Acts and local planners and councillors that ruined Princes Street. Tricia Marwick was well wide of the mark when she suggested that this reform is some 200 years too late. The end of the feudal system will mean the welcome end of abuses of the system by superiors. Contrary to the myth that the feudal system was exclusively a charter for unscrupulous private individuals to buy up superiorities to exploit the system and extract money from the rest of us, many of the worst offenders are—as my friend Phil Gallie pointed out—Labour or SNP-run local authorities. Labour-run City of Edinburgh Council charges £50 plus VAT for consent to install new windows and patio doors. It charges £200 plus VAT for consent for the erection of a porch or conservatory. Angus Council—run by the SNP— charges £60 plus VAT for such consent.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is indeed an irony that one of the first acts of the Scottish Parliament will, as my friend Brian Monteith said, be to abolish the feudal system of land tenure which—for all its faults—is distinctively Scottish. I always thought that one of the strongest arguments in favour of the Scottish Parliament was that it would help to preserve distinctive traditions such as our legal system.

For someone like me, who spent 25 years in the legal profession before coming to the chamber, the end of the feudal system is an occasion for saying goodbye to some old friends—the more esoteric aspects of the system that people such as Fergus Ewing, Robert Brown, Christine Grahame, Roseanna Cunningham and I laboured to comprehend in our law classes at university.

So it is goodbye to entails and—by section 53— goodbye to thirlage, a form of restrictive trade practice that I always thought particularly interesting. Saddest of all, it is goodbye to the kindly tenants of Lochmaben, an admirable body of people. I am surprised that they are being cast out in this manner, when their very name sounds like a social inclusion partnership. We are allowing them to pass without any reference to the tradition that they derived their heritable tenancies from grants made by King Robert the Bruce to his personal servants and their families. I am surprised that members of the Scottish National party—who are always telling us to remember Bannockburn—are prepared to cast such fine people into the legal dustbin with no further thought or comment.

However, we accept that any legal system must adapt or atrophy. There is no doubt that feudalism has many faults and there have been many changes to the system over the years. Most recently, the Land Tenure Reform (Scotland) Act 1974 prevented the imposition of new feuduties and provided for compulsory redemption on sale and voluntary redemption at return dates. In conjunction with the pernicious effects of inflation, that has meant that feuduties, for years, have been dying a lingering death. It is only right and proper that the Parliament should finally put them down.

Before members rush to condemn the feudal system out of hand, a number of factors ought to be remembered. We should remember that outright ownership of land does not mean licence to do as one pleases. There will still be a need for conditionality to be attached to the ownership of land; that was one of the strengths of the original system. We must be careful, in reforming our system, not to throw the baby out with the bath water.

Indeed, the saving provisions in the bill have been constructed out of recognition of the value of the feudal system and of the fact that certain categories of burden are beneficial to our community. Those have been identified as common facilities burdens, neighbour burdens, conservation burdens and maritime burdens. I welcome the fact that those are to be preserved. Those sections of the bill will require careful examination in order that their utility is preserved for future generations of Scots.

A number of concerns have been raised in the consultation process and are well recorded in the Justice and Home Affairs Committee's report. I welcome the minister's open mind on, for instance, the proposed limit on the length of commercial leases. We have to be careful on that, because although 125 years may seem like an eternity to us, that is not necessarily the case in terms of the lifetime of buildings and the investment in them by property companies. We should seek further evidence on the subject before finally determining a figure.

We should also look to amend compensation, which is another area of concern. The evidence of the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors suggested that the proposed redemption factor is too high for today's market and the payment period of 10 years too long. I welcome Christine Grahame's call for a reduction in the multiplier and a shortening of the instalment payment period. The Executive should take up that suggestion and, if I may say so, ignore the suggestion of Pauline McNeill, who went in precisely the opposite direction by saying that the instalment facility should be extended.

If we are going to put the feudal system down, let us do it neatly and tidily and in reasonable time. We must not prolong the collection-and-payment agony.

In principle I am happy to support the bill to abolish the feudal system, but we should pay tribute to its achievements. It married private interest with public and communal interest—an achievement that I would have thought would make it a model for new Labour in its desperate search for the third way.

The feudal system's most important function was as a system of development control. In that respect it has proved far more successful than many of our modern representatives in local government. It was, of course, the feudal system that created the architectural glories of Edinburgh's new town, but it was the Town and Country Planning Acts and local planners and councillors that ruined Princes Street. Tricia Marwick was well wide of the mark when she suggested that this reform is some 200 years too late.

The end of the feudal system will mean the welcome end of abuses of the system by superiors. Contrary to the myth that the feudal system was exclusively a charter for unscrupulous private individuals to buy up superiorities to exploit the system and extract money from the rest of us, many of the worst offenders are—as my friend Phil Gallie pointed out—Labour or SNP-run local authorities. Labour-run City of Edinburgh Council charges £50 plus VAT for consent to install new windows and patio doors. It charges £200 plus VAT for consent for the erection of a porch or conservatory. Angus Council—run by the SNP— charges £60 plus VAT for such consent.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6388347+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C714142", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27231, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 487.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 487.0, "ID": 27231, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Monteith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 622.0, "ContributionID": 714142, "EditedText": "Does the minister recall that it was a Tory who brought forward the abolition of slavery in Britain?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the minister recall that it was a Tory who brought forward the abolition of slavery in Britain?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6388347+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C714151", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sitting Days", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27233, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 631.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 631.0, "ID": 27233, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 638.0, "ContributionID": 714151, "EditedText": "I do not intend to suggest a division. However, an issue has arisen that relates to the recess. Members will be aware that the agricultural business improvement scheme has caused much consternation in recent months and has been the subject of an inquiry by the Rural Affairs Committee, which will report tomorrow. It is essential that the business of the ABIS be settled by the end of December, as European legislation payments have to be approved by that time. Currently there are 4,000 outstanding payments, amounting to £22 million—many people have expended money under the scheme. At lunch time today, the Scottish National party gave the Executive notice that we wished to use the last hour of tomorrow's Opposition time to debate motion S1M-376, in the name of Fergus Ewing, to allow the Parliament to discuss the matter before the recess. If we do not discuss it before the recess, many thousands of people will be disadvantaged. The Executive has refused that request. That interferes with the right of Opposition parties to nominate the way in which they wish to use Opposition time. I ask Mr McCabe to reflect on the matter. I hope that when we meet tomorrow, the Executive will have accepted that the Opposition can bring the matter for debate. The issue has a direct consequence for thousands of people and, given the commitment made by Lord Sewel to pay the money, for the integrity of the Government.", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not intend to suggest a division. However, an issue has arisen that relates to the recess. Members will be aware that the agricultural business improvement scheme has caused much consternation in recent months and has been the subject of an inquiry by the Rural Affairs Committee, which will report tomorrow. It is essential that the business of the ABIS be settled by the end of December, as European legislation payments have to be approved by that time. Currently there are 4,000 outstanding payments, amounting to £22 million—many people have expended money under the scheme.

At lunch time today, the Scottish National party gave the Executive notice that we wished to use the last hour of tomorrow's Opposition time to debate motion S1M-376, in the name of Fergus Ewing, to allow the Parliament to discuss the matter before the recess. If we do not discuss it before the recess, many thousands of people will be disadvantaged.

The Executive has refused that request. That interferes with the right of Opposition parties to nominate the way in which they wish to use Opposition time. I ask Mr McCabe to reflect on the matter. I hope that when we meet tomorrow, the Executive will have accepted that the Opposition can bring the matter for debate. The issue has a direct consequence for thousands of people and, given the commitment made by Lord Sewel to pay the money, for the integrity of the Government.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6388347+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C714153", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sitting Days", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27233, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 631.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 631.0, "ID": 27233, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 642.0, "ContributionID": 714153, "EditedText": "That is not a point of order; it is a point of argument.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is not a point of order; it is a point of argument.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6388347+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2228E151P202C714155", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sitting Days", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27233, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 631.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 631.0, "ID": 27233, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McCabe, Tom", "ID": 2228, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Tom McCabe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Parliament (Mr Tom McCabe): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 648.0, "ContributionID": 714155, "EditedText": "There is a need for some reflection. We are discussing a motion on the recess that was agreed only yesterday in the Parliamentary Bureau. Yesterday, the SNP had the opportunity to alter its choice of subject for the debate on non- Executive business—it did not take it. The request is at such short notice as to be a discourtesy to the whole chamber. I am surprised to hear the convener of the committee that is about to report to the Parliament on the subject requesting a debate before all members have had an opportunity to consider the report. That is another discourtesy. There are very good reasons why the Executive has said that if it behaved in that manner, the SNP and Mr Russell would be the first to criticise. We do not wish to accede to the request.", "EditedTextHTML": "There is a need for some reflection. We are discussing a motion on the recess that was agreed only yesterday in the Parliamentary Bureau. Yesterday, the SNP had the opportunity to alter its choice of subject for the debate on non- Executive business—it did not take it.

The request is at such short notice as to be a discourtesy to the whole chamber. I am surprised to hear the convener of the committee that is about to report to the Parliament on the subject requesting a debate before all members have had an opportunity to consider the report. That is another discourtesy.

There are very good reasons why the Executive has said that if it behaved in that manner, the SNP and Mr Russell would be the first to criticise. We do not wish to accede to the request.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6388347+00:00" }, { "ID": "C714157", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27234, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 650.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 650.0, "ID": 27234, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 654.0, "ContributionID": 714157, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6388347+00:00" }, { "ID": "C714148", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sitting Days", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27233, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 631.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 631.0, "ID": 27233, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 633.0, "ContributionID": 714148, "EditedText": "That the Parliament agrees (a) that between 20 December 1999 and 28 April 2000 (inclusive) the office of the clerk will be open on all days except: Saturdays and Sundays, the afternoon of 24 December, 27 December to 31 December inclusive, 3 January, 4 January, 21 April and 24 April; and, (b) that the Spring recess should begin on 10 April and end on 24 April.—Mr McCabe.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament agrees (a) that between 20 December 1999 and 28 April 2000 (inclusive) the office of the clerk will be open on all days except: Saturdays and Sundays, the afternoon of 24 December, 27 December to 31 December inclusive, 3 January, 4 January, 21 April and 24 April; and, (b) that the Spring recess should begin on 10 April and end on 24 April.—[Mr McCabe.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5295195+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C714165", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27234, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 650.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 650.0, "ID": 27234, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 668.0, "ContributionID": 714165, "EditedText": "Just a minute.", "EditedTextHTML": "Just a minute.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5138024+00:00" }, { "ID": "C714168", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27234, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 650.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 650.0, "ID": 27234, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 673.0, "ContributionID": 714168, "EditedText": "Amendment disagreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment disagreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5138024+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C714174", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27234, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 650.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 650.0, "ID": 27234, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 684.0, "ContributionID": 714174, "EditedText": "I am not an expert on these things, but, yes, if you go to another console, we will see whether your little light flashes then. The third question is, that motion S1M-378, in the name of Jack McConnell, on the budget level 2 figures, be agreed to. Are we agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am not an expert on these things, but, yes, if you go to another console, we will see whether your little light flashes then.

The third question is, that motion S1M-378, in the name of Jack McConnell, on the budget level 2 figures, be agreed to. Are we agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5138024+00:00" }, { "ID": "C714182", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27234, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 650.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 650.0, "ID": 27234, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 697.0, "ContributionID": 714182, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5138024+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C714184", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27234, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 650.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 650.0, "ID": 27234, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 699.0, "ContributionID": 714184, "EditedText": "The fifth question is, that motion S1M-236, in the name of Jack McConnell, on the financial resolution in relation to the Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill, be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "The fifth question is, that motion S1M-236, in the name of Jack McConnell, on the financial resolution in relation to the Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill, be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5138024+00:00" }, { "ID": "C714185", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27234, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 650.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 650.0, "ID": 27234, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 701.0, "ContributionID": 714185, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5138024+00:00" }, { "ID": "C714186", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27234, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 650.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 650.0, "ID": 27234, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 702.0, "ContributionID": 714186, "EditedText": "That the Parliament for the purposes of any Act of the Scottish Parliament resulting from the Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc. (Scotland) Bill, agrees to the following expenditure out of the Scottish Consolidated Fund— (a) expenditure of the Scottish Administration in consequence of the Act; and (b) increases attributable to the Act in the sums payable out of the Fund under any other enactment. The Presiding Officer: The sixth question is, that motion S1M-382, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, on sitting days, be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament for the purposes of any Act of the Scottish Parliament resulting from the Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc. (Scotland) Bill, agrees to the following expenditure out of the Scottish Consolidated Fund— (a) expenditure of the Scottish Administration in consequence of the Act; and (b) increases attributable to the Act in the sums payable out of the Fund under any other enactment. The Presiding Officer: The sixth question is, that motion S1M-382, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, on sitting days, be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5138024+00:00" }, { "ID": "C714188", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27234, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 650.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 650.0, "ID": 27234, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 704.0, "ContributionID": 714188, "EditedText": "That the Parliament agrees (a) that between 20 December 1999 and 28 April 2000 (inclusive) the office of the clerk will be open on all days except: Saturdays and Sundays, the afternoon of 24 December, 27 December to 31 December inclusive, 3 January, 4 January, 21 April and 24 April; and, (b) that the Spring recess should begin on 10 April and end on 24 April. The Presiding Officer: That concludes decision time.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament agrees (a) that between 20 December 1999 and 28 April 2000 (inclusive) the office of the clerk will be open on all days except: Saturdays and Sundays, the afternoon of 24 December, 27 December to 31 December inclusive, 3 January, 4 January, 21 April and 24 April; and, (b) that the Spring recess should begin on 10 April and end on 24 April. The Presiding Officer: That concludes decision time.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5138024+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1778E91P257C714192", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fife Rail Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27235, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 705.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 705.0, "ID": 27235, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Eadie, Helen", "ID": 1778, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dunfermline East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Helen Eadie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Helen Eadie (Dunfermline East) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 711.0, "ContributionID": 714192, "EditedText": "When it comes to high levels of unemployment, we in Fife are behind only the western isles and the Strathclyde area. Our routes into Edinburgh and the jobs there are our lifelines. The people of Fife have problems of access that are different from Edinburgh's problems of congestion. The people in my constituency want to travel by train and to use public transport. However, on cold, rainy and icy mornings, who will trade their car, with its heating and its stereo, for waiting on trains that either never seem to come or, if they do come, simply pass by without letting passengers on? Recently, I even witnessed commuters being put off an early morning train because of overcrowding. In just two months, I have received more than 600 complaints—nearly 300 postcards and more than 300 letters. We all know that signing a postcard is relatively easy. However, the feelings expressed in some of the passionate and detailed letters that I have received would go right off the Richter scale of anger. Older, slightly infirm passengers in Fife should forget trying to travel in peak hours, as should pregnant women. In one of the most recent letters that I have received, a woman due to give birth in only two or three months said that she was told by ScotRail to get a later train into work. People who are disabled or are in a wheelchair should not even think about travelling on those services. Some letters are diaries of inconvenience and financial loss. Commuters and their employers suffer economic loss because of ScotRail's absolute inefficiency. Although commuters complaints mainly relate to peak travelling times, others question why there are no late-night services on Fridays and Saturdays. Adding insult to injury, people in Fife have the most expensive train fares per kilometre of any rail service in Scotland. The trains are so packed that conductors are not able to collect fares from passengers if and when those passengers are able to join trains from unstaffed stations. Furthermore, stations are often closed with no notice. Fare-paying passengers speak of the manifest unfairness of fares remaining uncollected and are angry at the loss of essential revenue that could be invested in new rolling stock. ScotRail says that, in trying to increase the frequency of the trains, it has had to put on two- carriage trains, which are faster. However, that means that commuters have been deprived of the previous three-carriage trains. Trains are so old that ScotRail put around the story that a mechanic travelled on the older trains in case they broke down. We have now been told that Fife will be provided with a cascade of left-over trains from the Edinburgh-Glasgow line. However, it is not clear when that will happen and any doubts that I might have are based on my experience of the past four years. In that time, I have witnessed my colleagues' most intensive efforts to secure extra seating capacity for commuters in Fife. For four years, we have lived on promises, promises and yet more promises that we would have newer and bigger trains. It is clear that our country has a major problem with timeously acquiring new rolling stock. Of more than 500 trains that have been ordered in the past few years, only 75 have been delivered. There should be a major investigation of the manufacturers, who are apparently inept. It is becoming the norm for peak hour trains only to offload passengers from Inverkeithing onwards into Edinburgh, with every other passenger in Inverkeithing, Dalmeny and South Gyle often left standing helpless and angry on the platform. This is the first joint-member cross-party motion before the Parliament. Cross-party support for the motion in Fife should send a powerful message to this Parliament and to all the agencies concerned. Since the introduction of the new 15-minute Edinburgh-Glasgow service, what was a dreadful service in Fife has now become diabolical. I have ensured that copies of every letter, e-mail and postcard on this matter that I have received have been sent to ScotRail; Railtrack; Deputy Prime Minister John Prescott; Sarah Boyack, Minister for Transport and the Environment in the Scottish Parliament; the rail regulator; and the rail franchise director. ScotRail's performance is said by the rail regulator to be second only to the Isle of Wight. I have two comments to make about that. First, pity help the rest of the country. Secondly, that fact raises serious doubts about the software used by the rail regulator. For example, does that software emanate from Electronic Data Services, which was at the heart of many other major problems in the country's computerised systems? ScotRail spokespersons have been quoted in press reports as saying that the Fife campaign is more about me trying to heighten my political profile. When people are losing the argument, they try to personalise the issues. I was elected to the position of roads and transportation spokesperson in Fife in 1996, from which time I have been acutely aware of the deplorable rail services in that part of the country. All the successes in improving the services have been due to Fife Council and the Scottish Executive and not to the privatised rail companies. I am not opposed to public-private partnerships when the partnership is real and meaningful, but in Fife, it is the public bodies that have delivered on transport issues, while the private sector has left question marks. People in my constituency want to know how much longer they must suffer at the mercy of ScotRail, which is treating semi-rural and rural areas across Scotland with contempt. I appeal to the Parliament to support the motion and to require quality customer care and service level agreements to be paramount in all future dealings with train operating companies.", "EditedTextHTML": "When it comes to high levels of unemployment, we in Fife are behind only the western isles and the Strathclyde area. Our routes into Edinburgh and the jobs there are our lifelines. The people of Fife have problems of access that are different from Edinburgh's problems of congestion. The people in my constituency want to travel by train and to use public transport. However, on cold, rainy and icy mornings, who will trade their car, with its heating and its stereo, for waiting on trains that either never seem to come or, if they do come, simply pass by without letting passengers on? Recently, I even witnessed commuters being put off an early morning train because of overcrowding.

In just two months, I have received more than 600 complaints—nearly 300 postcards and more than 300 letters. We all know that signing a postcard is relatively easy. However, the feelings expressed in some of the passionate and detailed letters that I have received would go right off the Richter scale of anger. Older, slightly infirm passengers in Fife should forget trying to travel in peak hours, as should pregnant women. In one of the most recent letters that I have received, a woman due to give birth in only two or three months said that she was told by ScotRail to get a later train into work. People who are disabled or are in a wheelchair should not even think about travelling on those services.

Some letters are diaries of inconvenience and financial loss. Commuters and their employers suffer economic loss because of ScotRail's absolute inefficiency. Although commuters complaints mainly relate to peak travelling times, others question why there are no late-night services on Fridays and Saturdays. Adding insult to injury, people in Fife have the most expensive train fares per kilometre of any rail service in Scotland. The trains are so packed that conductors are not able to collect fares from passengers if and when those passengers are able to join trains from unstaffed stations. Furthermore, stations are often closed with no notice. Fare-paying passengers speak of the manifest unfairness of fares remaining uncollected and are angry at the loss of essential revenue that could be invested in new rolling stock.

ScotRail says that, in trying to increase the frequency of the trains, it has had to put on two- carriage trains, which are faster. However, that means that commuters have been deprived of the previous three-carriage trains. Trains are so old that ScotRail put around the story that a mechanic travelled on the older trains in case they broke down.

We have now been told that Fife will be provided with a cascade of left-over trains from the Edinburgh-Glasgow line. However, it is not clear when that will happen and any doubts that I might have are based on my experience of the past four years. In that time, I have witnessed my colleagues' most intensive efforts to secure extra seating capacity for commuters in Fife. For four years, we have lived on promises, promises and yet more promises that we would have newer and bigger trains.

It is clear that our country has a major problem with timeously acquiring new rolling stock. Of more than 500 trains that have been ordered in the past few years, only 75 have been delivered. There should be a major investigation of the manufacturers, who are apparently inept. It is becoming the norm for peak hour trains only to offload passengers from Inverkeithing onwards into Edinburgh, with every other passenger in Inverkeithing, Dalmeny and South Gyle often left standing helpless and angry on the platform.

This is the first joint-member cross-party motion before the Parliament. Cross-party support for the motion in Fife should send a powerful message to this Parliament and to all the agencies concerned. Since the introduction of the new 15-minute Edinburgh-Glasgow service, what was a dreadful service in Fife has now become diabolical. I have ensured that copies of every letter, e-mail and postcard on this matter that I have received have been sent to ScotRail; Railtrack; Deputy Prime Minister John Prescott; Sarah Boyack, Minister for Transport and the Environment in the Scottish Parliament; the rail regulator; and the rail franchise director.

ScotRail's performance is said by the rail regulator to be second only to the Isle of Wight. I have two comments to make about that. First, pity help the rest of the country. Secondly, that fact raises serious doubts about the software used by the rail regulator. For example, does that software emanate from Electronic Data Services, which was at the heart of many other major problems in the country's computerised systems?

ScotRail spokespersons have been quoted in press reports as saying that the Fife campaign is more about me trying to heighten my political profile. When people are losing the argument, they try to personalise the issues. I was elected to the position of roads and transportation spokesperson in Fife in 1996, from which time I have been acutely aware of the deplorable rail services in that part of the country. All the successes in improving the services have been due to Fife Council and the Scottish Executive and not to the privatised rail companies. I am not opposed to public-private partnerships when the partnership is real and meaningful, but in Fife, it is the public bodies that have delivered on transport issues, while the private sector has left question marks.

People in my constituency want to know how much longer they must suffer at the mercy of ScotRail, which is treating semi-rural and rural areas across Scotland with contempt. I appeal to the Parliament to support the motion and to require quality customer care and service level agreements to be paramount in all future dealings with train operating companies.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5138024+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1876E194P490C714193", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fife Rail Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27235, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 705.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 705.0, "ID": 27235, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Marwick, Tricia", "ID": 1876, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tricia Marwick", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tricia Marwick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 714.0, "ContributionID": 714193, "EditedText": "Before I begin, I should declare an interest. In an attempt to follow the best and friendliest environmental practices, as promoted by the Parliament, I am a rail commuter. I travel every day from Markinch and have done for many years. I have travelled the railways of Fife before, during and after privatisation. The rolling stock on which Fifers are expected to travel predates even my first rail journey. Indeed, I suspect that the rolling stock is almost as old as I am. I have never before suffered the sustained delays and the shoddy standard of service which we have had to put up with in Fife during the past few months. After standing on a cold platform in a futile wait for a train that simply does not arrive, we are offered platitudes, not reasons. Sometimes we are even offered apologies. Such is the anger of the commuters in Fife that at my station the clerk has the complaint forms ready for us before we ask for them. On the occasions when the long, cold wait yields a result, an old, dirty multiple unit from the 1950s rattles and belches its way through Fife. Ancient rolling stock running on lines that have been starved of investment for years is not a recipe for a punctual or comfortable journey. Sometimes the problem is the wrong kind of snow; sometimes it is the signals, the track, the points, engine trouble, the fact that there are no staff to man the station or a slow-moving train in front of us. Always, the problem is uncertainty, delay or cancellation. By the time that the trains pull into Inverkeithing, they are so overcrowded that they closely resemble cattle trucks. Helen Eadie has already mentioned the problem of people at South Gyle and Dalmeny who simply do not get on. People from Inverkeithing stand in the aisles, because there is no space. They do not fall down, because so many people are jammed up against them that it is impossible to move in any direction—sideways, upwards or downwards. Initial relief at the eventual arrival in Edinburgh is tempered by the inevitability of the return journey. It is little wonder that ScotRail bosses declined my invitation to join their customers on the journey from Markinch to Edinburgh. Among the platitudes that pass for excuses for the service, we are told that Fife is suffering because of a delay in getting new trains for the Edinburgh-Glasgow line. What is the relevance of that? The answer is that Fife is waiting patiently for the cast-offs from that line—the trains that are currently running between Edinburgh and Glasgow. The message from the Parliament to ScotRail and Railtrack is that while we may not be the flagship Edinburgh-Glasgow line, we are not second-class commuters. It costs £46 a week for the privilege of travelling from Markinch to Edinburgh. We do not want second-hand rolling stock, nor do we want a second-class or, more likely, a fifth-class service, which is what we get at the moment. I expect my work in the Parliament to be challenging. I do not expect the 25-mile trip home to be even more challenging. We cannot expect people to move from using their cars to using the train when the journey home at the end of the night is a fraught and uncertain experience. I urge the minister to make representations to Railtrack and the operators about the service. Otherwise, commuters will vote with their feet—or their cars—and the already overcrowded Forth road bridge will be more congested than ever.", "EditedTextHTML": "Before I begin, I should declare an interest. In an attempt to follow the best and friendliest environmental practices, as promoted by the Parliament, I am a rail commuter. I travel every day from Markinch and have done for many years.

I have travelled the railways of Fife before, during and after privatisation. The rolling stock on which Fifers are expected to travel predates even my first rail journey. Indeed, I suspect that the rolling stock is almost as old as I am. I have never before suffered the sustained delays and the shoddy standard of service which we have had to put up with in Fife during the past few months.

After standing on a cold platform in a futile wait for a train that simply does not arrive, we are offered platitudes, not reasons. Sometimes we are even offered apologies. Such is the anger of the commuters in Fife that at my station the clerk has the complaint forms ready for us before we ask for them. On the occasions when the long, cold wait yields a result, an old, dirty multiple unit from the 1950s rattles and belches its way through Fife.

Ancient rolling stock running on lines that have been starved of investment for years is not a recipe for a punctual or comfortable journey.

Sometimes the problem is the wrong kind of snow; sometimes it is the signals, the track, the points, engine trouble, the fact that there are no staff to man the station or a slow-moving train in front of us. Always, the problem is uncertainty, delay or cancellation. By the time that the trains pull into Inverkeithing, they are so overcrowded that they closely resemble cattle trucks.

Helen Eadie has already mentioned the problem of people at South Gyle and Dalmeny who simply do not get on. People from Inverkeithing stand in the aisles, because there is no space. They do not fall down, because so many people are jammed up against them that it is impossible to move in any direction—sideways, upwards or downwards. Initial relief at the eventual arrival in Edinburgh is tempered by the inevitability of the return journey. It is little wonder that ScotRail bosses declined my invitation to join their customers on the journey from Markinch to Edinburgh.

Among the platitudes that pass for excuses for the service, we are told that Fife is suffering because of a delay in getting new trains for the Edinburgh-Glasgow line. What is the relevance of that? The answer is that Fife is waiting patiently for the cast-offs from that line—the trains that are currently running between Edinburgh and Glasgow.

The message from the Parliament to ScotRail and Railtrack is that while we may not be the flagship Edinburgh-Glasgow line, we are not second-class commuters. It costs £46 a week for the privilege of travelling from Markinch to Edinburgh. We do not want second-hand rolling stock, nor do we want a second-class or, more likely, a fifth-class service, which is what we get at the moment.

I expect my work in the Parliament to be challenging. I do not expect the 25-mile trip home to be even more challenging. We cannot expect people to move from using their cars to using the train when the journey home at the end of the night is a fraught and uncertain experience.

I urge the minister to make representations to Railtrack and the operators about the service. Otherwise, commuters will vote with their feet—or their cars—and the already overcrowded Forth road bridge will be more congested than ever.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5138024+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2038E191P344C714194", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fife Rail Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27235, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 705.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 705.0, "ID": 27235, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Smith, Iain", "ID": 2038, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Iain Smith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Iain Smith (North-East Fife) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 717.0, "ContributionID": 714194, "EditedText": "First, I thank Helen Eadie and Tricia Marwick for their initiative in obtaining this debate. The Herald suggested this week that I had taken a vow of silence by being the Liberal Democrat whip, so I would like also to thank my ministerial colleague Sarah Boyack for allowing me to speak as a constituency member, which ministers do not usually get to do. Like Helen Eadie and Tricia Marwick, I have to declare an interest. I commute from Ladybank—or try to commute from Ladybank—by train every day. I say \"try to commute\" because it is not always easy. I, too, have suffered the problems of rail in Fife over the last few months, with cancellations of services, delays, overcrowding and a lack of information. One day, not long ago, I was waiting at Ladybank station for the 7.50 train, which decided not to bother turning up. I spent 40 minutes in the freezing cold on the platform of a closed station with no staff; there were no announcements on the so-called public information system. The 8.30 eventually arrived, a two-carriage train which took the place of the six carriages that should have formed the two services. I stood all the way to Edinburgh. Sometimes, I do have a slight smirk when the train that I am in passes through Inverkeithing and I see some of my parliamentary colleagues desperately waiting to get on the train. They cannot get on, and the train passes by. I am fortunate enough to get on at a stage when there is still an occasional seat. Frankly, that is not good enough. There needs to be better rolling stock and more seats. It is not good enough that Fife has to wait for improvements elsewhere before it gets new rolling stock. ScotRail recently ran a trial of a new Turbostar, which it hopes to run from Edinburgh to Aberdeen soon. I managed to persuade ScotRail to make an extra stop at Ladybank to pick me up and let me have a little shot on this fancy new train. I did not just get a shot on the train; I spoke directly to ScotRail executives. I have said to ScotRail representatives in the past, \"Why not come to Ladybank some morning, join a train with me and see for yourself how bad it is?\" I am still waiting for them to find time in their busy diaries to do that, but I at least got an opportunity to speak to them on that new train and to raise the concerns of Fife commuters. I got some assurances from them that we are to get some improvements. They told me that all the Turbostars were finally in place for the Glasgow- Edinburgh service, and that better trains, which would improve the service and reduce the delays in the morning, were in the pipeline. Sadly, the last few journeys that I tried to make were subject to delays, overcrowding and cancellation. The improvements that ScotRail keep promising us do not materialise. Frankly, the people of Fife have had enough; the train service is not good enough. We have had enough and it is time that ScotRail and Railtrack did something about it. I am critical of their management, but, to be fair to them, they have to pick up the pieces from many years of significant under-investment. I see that Nick Johnston is the one member still on the Conservative benches. The Conservatives were not known to be friends of the railways. In the immediate run-up to privatisation, there was a block on new investment in trains. As Helen Eadie will confirm, Fife Council had orders for new trains waiting to be filled as part of the improvement to Fife rail services. The trains could not be built because privatisation was coming up and no orders were allowed to be placed. That was absolutely ridiculous. We are still waiting for the new trains that Fife Council tried to order around six years ago. It is a disgrace that that is the case, but it is a result of the freezing of investment in the rail service at the time. It is also a disgrace that, yet again, there has been a surprise rise in the value of Railtrack profits, as I learned today from Ceefax which, unlike Alex Salmond, I watch during the day rather than at midnight. Railtrack will be allowed to make even more profit. That is not what they should be doing, which is taking less profit and investing more in the railways, improving services, signalling, track and stations. Those things need to happen now—not profit for Railtrack. I want to see big improvements in the rail service in Fife in future years. Only 1 per cent of journeys made in Fife are by rail, and that is not enough; the figure should be significantly higher. In particular, there should be more opportunities to travel to Edinburgh and Dundee from Fife. I want there to be more services to fill the current gaps at Ladybank, Cupar and Springfield. I want there to be improvements at stations and better information systems for passengers, particularly at unmanned stations. I also want there to be new stations at Wormit and Newburgh and, ultimately, a restoration of the St Andrews rail link. The immediate priority for ScotRail must be to get its act together by providing the people in the north-east and the rest of Fife with a reliable, punctual and comfortable rail service to replace the unacceptable, unreliable and overcrowded services that we suffer at present.", "EditedTextHTML": "First, I thank Helen Eadie and Tricia Marwick for their initiative in obtaining this debate. The Herald suggested this week that I had taken a vow of silence by

being the Liberal Democrat whip, so I would like also to thank my ministerial colleague Sarah Boyack for allowing me to speak as a constituency member, which ministers do not usually get to do.

Like Helen Eadie and Tricia Marwick, I have to declare an interest. I commute from Ladybank—or try to commute from Ladybank—by train every day. I say \"try to commute\" because it is not always easy. I, too, have suffered the problems of rail in Fife over the last few months, with cancellations of services, delays, overcrowding and a lack of information.

One day, not long ago, I was waiting at Ladybank station for the 7.50 train, which decided not to bother turning up. I spent 40 minutes in the freezing cold on the platform of a closed station with no staff; there were no announcements on the so-called public information system. The 8.30 eventually arrived, a two-carriage train which took the place of the six carriages that should have formed the two services. I stood all the way to Edinburgh.

Sometimes, I do have a slight smirk when the train that I am in passes through Inverkeithing and I see some of my parliamentary colleagues desperately waiting to get on the train. They cannot get on, and the train passes by. I am fortunate enough to get on at a stage when there is still an occasional seat. Frankly, that is not good enough. There needs to be better rolling stock and more seats. It is not good enough that Fife has to wait for improvements elsewhere before it gets new rolling stock.

ScotRail recently ran a trial of a new Turbostar, which it hopes to run from Edinburgh to Aberdeen soon. I managed to persuade ScotRail to make an extra stop at Ladybank to pick me up and let me have a little shot on this fancy new train. I did not just get a shot on the train; I spoke directly to ScotRail executives. I have said to ScotRail representatives in the past, \"Why not come to Ladybank some morning, join a train with me and see for yourself how bad it is?\" I am still waiting for them to find time in their busy diaries to do that, but I at least got an opportunity to speak to them on that new train and to raise the concerns of Fife commuters.

I got some assurances from them that we are to get some improvements. They told me that all the Turbostars were finally in place for the Glasgow- Edinburgh service, and that better trains, which would improve the service and reduce the delays in the morning, were in the pipeline. Sadly, the last few journeys that I tried to make were subject to delays, overcrowding and cancellation.

The improvements that ScotRail keep promising us do not materialise. Frankly, the people of Fife have had enough; the train service is not good enough. We have had enough and it is time that ScotRail and Railtrack did something about it. I am critical of their management, but, to be fair to them, they have to pick up the pieces from many years of significant under-investment. I see that Nick Johnston is the one member still on the Conservative benches. The Conservatives were not known to be friends of the railways.

In the immediate run-up to privatisation, there was a block on new investment in trains. As Helen Eadie will confirm, Fife Council had orders for new trains waiting to be filled as part of the improvement to Fife rail services. The trains could not be built because privatisation was coming up and no orders were allowed to be placed. That was absolutely ridiculous. We are still waiting for the new trains that Fife Council tried to order around six years ago. It is a disgrace that that is the case, but it is a result of the freezing of investment in the rail service at the time.

It is also a disgrace that, yet again, there has been a surprise rise in the value of Railtrack profits, as I learned today from Ceefax which, unlike Alex Salmond, I watch during the day rather than at midnight. Railtrack will be allowed to make even more profit. That is not what they should be doing, which is taking less profit and investing more in the railways, improving services, signalling, track and stations. Those things need to happen now—not profit for Railtrack.

I want to see big improvements in the rail service in Fife in future years. Only 1 per cent of journeys made in Fife are by rail, and that is not enough; the figure should be significantly higher. In particular, there should be more opportunities to travel to Edinburgh and Dundee from Fife. I want there to be more services to fill the current gaps at Ladybank, Cupar and Springfield. I want there to be improvements at stations and better information systems for passengers, particularly at unmanned stations. I also want there to be new stations at Wormit and Newburgh and, ultimately, a restoration of the St Andrews rail link.

The immediate priority for ScotRail must be to get its act together by providing the people in the north-east and the rest of Fife with a reliable, punctual and comfortable rail service to replace the unacceptable, unreliable and overcrowded services that we suffer at present.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5138024+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2152E53P75C714195", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fife Rail Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27235, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 705.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 705.0, "ID": 27235, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnston, Nick", "ID": 2152, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nick Johnston", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nick Johnston (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 720.0, "ContributionID": 714195, "EditedText": "I thank Tricia Marwick for initiating the motion and Helen Eadie for following her lead in exposing the horrendous service from ScotRail and Railtrack. I take Iain Smith's point, surprisingly enough. There was a lack of investment in railways before privatisation but, since privatisation, most services have improved. I used to travel often to Newcastle and the Great North Eastern Railway service on the east coast line is superb. There is no reason why ScotRail cannot give that level of service. I was going to declare an interest but I do not need to any more because I have stopped travelling by train. I travel in from Kinross every day, a journey that over the past four weeks has averaged an hour and a quarter. This morning I left home at quarter-past 7 and got into the Parliament building at 5 minutes to 9. I have three choices: bus, car or train. I can get the bus door to door at £5.30 return; it is a good service but it meanders round by Dunfermline. I can drive, park all day, and drive home again, which costs the Parliament £42 a day. I can drive to Inverkeithing, which takes 15 minutes and, if I am lucky, get a train within half an hour. If I am very lucky, I will be in Edinburgh within 20 minutes, and that costs the Parliament £23.60. Sometimes I even get a seat. My personal assistant's experience of trying to get the train from South Gyle is that she often misses not one or even two but three trains because of the terrible overcrowding. She often refuses to get on trains, even when the guard has opened the doors, because she feels that it is dangerous. There was a report in The Scotsman the other day of a train, I think on the Falkirk line, where a door burst open and the guard had to stand in the door to stop passengers falling out. That is not acceptable in 1999. As a Conservative, and so by definition a fair- minded person, I contacted ScotRail and Railtrack. As other speakers have said, ScotRail's response was that the \"state of the Edinburgh-Fife rail service has been because late delivery of new Turbostar trains for Edinburgh- Glasgow\" delayed \"the elimination of the 40-year-old and increasingly unreliable Class 117 units used on the peak-hour Edinburgh-Fife services.\" I am not a trainspotter so that means little to me.\"Meanwhile we were also experiencing unusually high levels of long-term sickness at Edinburgh, and in the midst of our worst period there was a particularly bad train failure on 22 October resulting from an unsolicited brake application.\" I do not know what an unsolicited brake application is. Maybe someone was so bemused by the overcrowding that they pulled the communication cord. I do not think that is a satisfactory explanation. If they cannot run the service, they should move over and let in someone who can. That is what privatisation is about. I hope that they move over. Those in Railtrack had this explanation. They\"have employed a team of six to travel on the Fife circle monitoring the delays and to speak to drivers about problems on journeys.\" Now, that will make a difference.\"All factors of the journey are investigated including fleet failures, pinch points, passenger delays at stations, and time in the timetable.\" They also gave me a list of improvements but I do not want to steal Sarah Boyack's thunder. To save time I will not read them out. However, I welcome Railtrack's investment of £1.5 million to reopen a key, strategic missing link in the rail network, the route from Stirling to Dunfermline via Alloa. \"Parliamentary Powers need to be sought to permit the running of trains, or otherwise the route could be lost for rail use.\" That is under way at present. Fife Council says that it will use increased borrowing powers to buy additional rail services to provide 300 extra seats in peak evening and morning periods. I hope that these investments lead to an improvement in service because, if not, the Executive's transport policy is in tatters and its hope of moving traffic from road to rail is fruitless. I would rather spend an hour in my nice, warm car, even in a traffic jam, listening to music or dictating letters, than stand on a cold, dirty, draughty platform waiting for a train that never arrives.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank Tricia Marwick for initiating the motion and Helen Eadie for following her lead in exposing the horrendous service from ScotRail and Railtrack. I take Iain Smith's point, surprisingly enough. There was a lack of investment in railways before privatisation but, since privatisation, most services

have improved. I used to travel often to Newcastle and the Great North Eastern Railway service on the east coast line is superb. There is no reason why ScotRail cannot give that level of service.

I was going to declare an interest but I do not need to any more because I have stopped travelling by train. I travel in from Kinross every day, a journey that over the past four weeks has averaged an hour and a quarter. This morning I left home at quarter-past 7 and got into the Parliament building at 5 minutes to 9. I have three choices: bus, car or train. I can get the bus door to door at £5.30 return; it is a good service but it meanders round by Dunfermline. I can drive, park all day, and drive home again, which costs the Parliament £42 a day. I can drive to Inverkeithing, which takes 15 minutes and, if I am lucky, get a train within half an hour. If I am very lucky, I will be in Edinburgh within 20 minutes, and that costs the Parliament £23.60. Sometimes I even get a seat.

My personal assistant's experience of trying to get the train from South Gyle is that she often misses not one or even two but three trains because of the terrible overcrowding. She often refuses to get on trains, even when the guard has opened the doors, because she feels that it is dangerous. There was a report in The Scotsman the other day of a train, I think on the Falkirk line, where a door burst open and the guard had to stand in the door to stop passengers falling out. That is not acceptable in 1999.

As a Conservative, and so by definition a fair- minded person, I contacted ScotRail and Railtrack. As other speakers have said, ScotRail's response was that the

\"state of the Edinburgh-Fife rail service has been because late delivery of new Turbostar trains for Edinburgh- Glasgow\" delayed

\"the elimination of the 40-year-old and increasingly unreliable Class 117 units used on the peak-hour Edinburgh-Fife services.\"

I am not a trainspotter so that means little to me.

\"Meanwhile we were also experiencing unusually high levels of long-term sickness at Edinburgh, and in the midst of our worst period there was a particularly bad train failure on 22 October resulting from an unsolicited brake application.\"

I do not know what an unsolicited brake application is. Maybe someone was so bemused by the overcrowding that they pulled the communication cord. I do not think that is a satisfactory explanation. If they cannot run the service, they should move over and let in someone who can. That is what privatisation is about. I hope that they move over.

Those in Railtrack had this explanation. They

\"have employed a team of six to travel on the Fife circle monitoring the delays and to speak to drivers about problems on journeys.\"

Now, that will make a difference.

\"All factors of the journey are investigated including fleet failures, pinch points, passenger delays at stations, and time in the timetable.\"

They also gave me a list of improvements but I do not want to steal Sarah Boyack's thunder. To save time I will not read them out. However, I welcome Railtrack's investment of £1.5 million to reopen a key, strategic missing link in the rail network, the route from Stirling to Dunfermline via Alloa.

\"Parliamentary Powers need to be sought to permit the running of trains, or otherwise the route could be lost for rail use.\"

That is under way at present. Fife Council says that it will use increased borrowing powers to buy additional rail services to provide 300 extra seats in peak evening and morning periods.

I hope that these investments lead to an improvement in service because, if not, the Executive's transport policy is in tatters and its hope of moving traffic from road to rail is fruitless. I would rather spend an hour in my nice, warm car, even in a traffic jam, listening to music or dictating letters, than stand on a cold, dirty, draughty platform waiting for a train that never arrives.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5138024+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C714207", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fife Rail Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27235, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 705.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 705.0, "ID": 27235, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Patricia Ferguson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 747.0, "ContributionID": 714207, "EditedText": "I apologise to Scott Barrie, Maureen Macmillan and Tommy Sheridan, who indicated a wish to speak in this debate—unfortunately, time was against us.", "EditedTextHTML": "I apologise to Scott Barrie, Maureen Macmillan and Tommy Sheridan, who indicated a wish to speak in this debate—unfortunately, time was against us.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5138024+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C714030", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 372.0, "ContributionID": 714030, "EditedText": "I am terribly sorry that I cannot take an intervention from Mr McNulty, as I have reached the end of my time. However, if he wants to address my concern about the fact that he has not told us whether expenditure is at the right level today or at the end of the Barnett formula process, we can happily debate that in the future.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am terribly sorry that I cannot take an intervention from Mr McNulty, as I have reached the end of my time. However, if he wants to address my concern about the fact that he has not told us whether expenditure is at the right level today or at the end of the Barnett formula process, we can happily debate that in the future.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:24:23.7026612+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C714036", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 385.0, "ContributionID": 714036, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:24:23.7026612+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C714045", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 403.0, "ContributionID": 714045, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:24:23.7026612+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1783E59P270C714164", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27234, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 650.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 650.0, "ID": 27234, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Baillie, Jackie", "ID": 1783, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumbarton" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Jackie Baillie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Jackie Baillie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 666.0, "ContributionID": 714164, "EditedText": "But it is because my console is not working.", "EditedTextHTML": "But it is because my console is not working.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:27:39.0629519+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C713886", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 70.0, "ContributionID": 713886, "EditedText": "What about the past two years?", "EditedTextHTML": "What about the past two years?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:21:23.9742649+00:00" }, { "ID": "C714147", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sitting Days", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27233, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 631.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 631.0, "ID": 27233, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 632.0, "ContributionID": 714147, "EditedText": "Motion moved,", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion moved,

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5295195+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713858", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Cross-party Groups", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27227, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27227, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 4.0, "ContributionID": 713858, "EditedText": "Good morning. I realise that there are major traffic and weather problems this morning, so we are thin on the ground, but we will proceed with the first item of business, which is the motion from the Standards Committee, S1M-338, in the name of Mr Mike Rumbles.", "EditedTextHTML": "Good morning. I realise that there are major traffic and weather problems this morning, so we are thin on the ground, but we will proceed with the first item of business, which is the motion from the Standards Committee, S1M-338, in the name of Mr Mike Rumbles.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2056E57P84C713861", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Cross-party Groups", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27227, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27227, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James", "ID": 2056, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "James Douglas-Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Lord James Douglas-Hamilton (Lothians) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 13.0, "ContributionID": 713861, "EditedText": "I rise to support Mr Mike Rumbles's motion. As convener of the Standards Committee, he has conducted our proceedings with good will and humour. It has been a pleasure to work with him. Mr Rumbles is right to stress the need for inclusiveness, openness and transparency. Cross- party groups can be of enormous benefit to a great many. Tricia Marwick is right to say that they are vitally important for the ethos of the Parliament. They are a valuable way of examining issues that are not necessarily politically controversial, and of encouraging rational discussion of problems. That can provide a pleasant contrast to the political cut and thrust that we more usually see. Although entertaining, and based on the expression of deeply held convictions, the latter debates can generate more heat than light and can merely reinforce existing convictions. In a cross-party group, it is possible to debate matters at greater length, without people taking up deeply entrenched positions. Such groups provide a greater opportunity to persuade others of a certain point of view. If we, as MSPs, are to properly scrutinise and develop legislation to match Scotland's needs, it will be useful to hear from those in the public, private and voluntary sectors, and from academia and members of the public with specialised policy knowledge and experience. The Standards Committee's proposals for cross-party groups should put in place a properly regulated system, which will make possible regular contact between MSPs and those concerned groups. The committee believes strongly that, once that system is in place, it will not be long before there are cross-party groups on a wide variety of issues as diverse as the needs of the disabled, the elderly, children's rights, Scottish sport, voluntary organisations, the arts and health. The groups will always have an important role to play in any Parliament. Where fundamental principles conflict, they will never replace debate, but where there is a basis of consensus, they will provide a forum to discuss ideas, with a view to taking matters forward and possibly turning ideas into legislation. That is an effective parliamentary framework, ensuring inclusiveness, openness and transparency. It will provide the framework to enable the groups concerned to have a constructive influence in future. I support the motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "I rise to support Mr Mike Rumbles's motion. As convener of the Standards Committee, he has conducted our proceedings with good will and humour. It has been a pleasure to work with him.

Mr Rumbles is right to stress the need for inclusiveness, openness and transparency. Cross- party groups can be of enormous benefit to a great many. Tricia Marwick is right to say that they are vitally important for the ethos of the Parliament. They are a valuable way of examining issues that are not necessarily politically controversial, and of encouraging rational discussion of problems. That can provide a pleasant contrast to the political cut and thrust that we more usually see. Although entertaining, and based on the expression of deeply held convictions, the latter debates can generate more heat than light and can merely reinforce existing convictions.

In a cross-party group, it is possible to debate matters at greater length, without people taking up

deeply entrenched positions. Such groups provide a greater opportunity to persuade others of a certain point of view. If we, as MSPs, are to properly scrutinise and develop legislation to match Scotland's needs, it will be useful to hear from those in the public, private and voluntary sectors, and from academia and members of the public with specialised policy knowledge and experience. The Standards Committee's proposals for cross-party groups should put in place a properly regulated system, which will make possible regular contact between MSPs and those concerned groups.

The committee believes strongly that, once that system is in place, it will not be long before there are cross-party groups on a wide variety of issues as diverse as the needs of the disabled, the elderly, children's rights, Scottish sport, voluntary organisations, the arts and health. The groups will always have an important role to play in any Parliament. Where fundamental principles conflict, they will never replace debate, but where there is a basis of consensus, they will provide a forum to discuss ideas, with a view to taking matters forward and possibly turning ideas into legislation.

That is an effective parliamentary framework, ensuring inclusiveness, openness and transparency. It will provide the framework to enable the groups concerned to have a constructive influence in future.

I support the motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713869", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 35.0, "ContributionID": 713869, "EditedText": "The next item of business is motion S1M-378, in the name of Mr Jack McConnell, on the draft 2000-01 budget level 2 figures and an amendment lodged by Mr Andrew Wilson. The motion is: That the Parliament commends the Executive's expenditure plans published in the consultation paper Spending Plans for Scotland on 17 November 1999 and endorses the spending priorities set out in the paper in line with the commitments of the Partnership Agreement and the Programme for Government.", "EditedTextHTML": "The next item of business is motion S1M-378, in the name of Mr Jack McConnell, on the draft 2000-01 budget level 2 figures and an amendment lodged by Mr Andrew Wilson. The motion is:

That the Parliament commends the Executive's expenditure plans published in the consultation paper Spending Plans for Scotland on 17 November 1999 and endorses the spending priorities set out in the paper in line with the commitments of the Partnership Agreement and the Programme for Government.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C713871", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Finance (Mr Jack McConnell): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 40.0, "ContributionID": 713871, "EditedText": "Thank you, Presiding Officer. This time you did not need an intervention from Ms MacDonald. I am happy to move the motion and to oppose the amendment. This is an important debate and I am grateful that the Parliamentary Bureau was willing to arrange this special meeting to ensure that it took place. Today's debate is very much about the future— the spending plans for 2000-01, details of which are set out in what has become known as the level 2 figures. The published figures extend to 200102, setting out our preliminary plans for that year. There will be a full budgetary cycle in which to discuss the 2001-02 figures—which at this stage have the status only of initial planning assumptions—starting next March. However, the debate today is on the plans for 2000-01. New processes and principles underlie the budgetary process that we are in. Those new processes and principles will drive a different type of budgeting, in which everyone will have an opportunity to have their say. This is a transitional year, in which we are moving from the old ways of working towards the new approach that we believe is required for the new, more democratic Scotland. In just six months, we have changed the budgetary process to enhance scrutiny and to involve Parliament and the wider public in consideration of the financial plans. On 9 November, I sent the level 2 figures that we are debating today to the Finance Committee. The numbers were then published in the finance consultation paper on 17 November. This is the first time that the people of Scotland have been consulted about the Government's future expenditure plans. We will—in the light of my discussions yesterday with the Finance Committee, any points that are made today and the responses to our public consultation—publish final expenditure plans in a budget bill, which I will lay before the Parliament in January 2000. The consultation process ends today. I am disappointed but not entirely surprised at the fact that the response was low. The transitional nature of this year, the resultant short time scale and the general unfamiliarity with the concept of an inclusive budgeting process have all contributed.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you, Presiding Officer. This time you did not need an intervention from Ms MacDonald.

I am happy to move the motion and to oppose the amendment. This is an important debate and I am grateful that the Parliamentary Bureau was willing to arrange this special meeting to ensure that it took place.

Today's debate is very much about the future— the spending plans for 2000-01, details of which are set out in what has become known as the level 2 figures. The published figures extend to 200102, setting out our preliminary plans for that year. There will be a full budgetary cycle in which to discuss the 2001-02 figures—which at this stage have the status only of initial planning assumptions—starting next March. However, the debate today is on the plans for 2000-01.

New processes and principles underlie the budgetary process that we are in. Those new processes and principles will drive a different type of budgeting, in which everyone will have an opportunity to have their say. This is a transitional year, in which we are moving from the old ways of working towards the new approach that we believe is required for the new, more democratic Scotland.

In just six months, we have changed the budgetary process to enhance scrutiny and to involve Parliament and the wider public in consideration of the financial plans. On 9 November, I sent the level 2 figures that we are debating today to the Finance Committee. The numbers were then published in the finance consultation paper on 17 November.

This is the first time that the people of Scotland have been consulted about the Government's future expenditure plans. We will—in the light of my discussions yesterday with the Finance Committee, any points that are made today and the responses to our public consultation—publish final expenditure plans in a budget bill, which I will lay before the Parliament in January 2000.

The consultation process ends today. I am disappointed but not entirely surprised at the fact that the response was low. The transitional nature of this year, the resultant short time scale and the general unfamiliarity with the concept of an inclusive budgeting process have all contributed.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1926E190P479C713874", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Adam, Brian", "ID": 1926, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Adam", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Brian Adam (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 46.0, "ContributionID": 713874, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C713879", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 56.0, "ContributionID": 713879, "EditedText": "It is important to clarify that there are two different stages to the process. We are at a stage—partly because of the compressed time scale for this year and partly because we are improving an old system and moving towards a new one—of establishing the control totals, or authoritative spend, for next year. The level of the figures that we are debating—the level that is published—is the right one. There could be some adjustment to the figures—I am sure that there will be over time—but it is important to retain flexibility for managers and ministers within the overall totals. At the earlier stage of consideration, stage 1, when committees are subjecting long-term strategies and proposed budgets to more scrutiny, I think that more detailed information has to be available. Rather than having an overall pattern, it would be right and proper, as I explained at the Finance Committee meeting yesterday, for individual committees and ministers to resolve the best information for each year to help the committees to conduct their scrutiny. I hope that that process can be conducted constructively on all sides. We need to continue our work on the system of public finance and be proactive in developing new ways of working that make concepts understandable and that illuminate the entire process. Nevertheless, I want to avoid paralysis by analysis—swamping the process in meaningless detail—which would obscure rather than illuminate the bigger picture. I do not underestimate the challenge of delivering inclusiveness, wider consultation and greater accountability; however, we will meet that challenge.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is important to clarify that there are two different stages to the process. We are at a stage—partly because of the compressed time scale for this year and partly because we are improving an old system and moving towards a new one—of establishing the control totals, or authoritative spend, for next year. The level of the figures that we are debating—the level that is published—is the right one. There could be some adjustment to the figures—I am sure that there will be over time—but it is important to retain flexibility for managers and ministers within the overall totals.

At the earlier stage of consideration, stage 1, when committees are subjecting long-term strategies and proposed budgets to more scrutiny, I think that more detailed information has to be available. Rather than having an overall pattern, it would be right and proper, as I explained at the Finance Committee meeting yesterday, for individual committees and ministers to resolve the best information for each year to help the committees to conduct their scrutiny. I hope that that process can be conducted constructively on all sides.

We need to continue our work on the system of public finance and be proactive in developing new ways of working that make concepts understandable and that illuminate the entire process. Nevertheless, I want to avoid paralysis by analysis—swamping the process in meaningless detail—which would obscure rather than illuminate the bigger picture. I do not underestimate the challenge of delivering inclusiveness, wider consultation and greater accountability; however, we will meet that challenge.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C713880", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 58.0, "ContributionID": 713880, "EditedText": "I recognise that the minister has some reservations about detail but, as someone who takes a great interest in home affairs, can he explain the significant reductions in the justice expenditure levels?", "EditedTextHTML": "I recognise that the minister has some reservations about detail but, as someone who takes a great interest in home affairs, can he explain the significant reductions in the justice expenditure levels?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C713883", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 64.0, "ContributionID": 713883, "EditedText": "Mr Davidson is a member of the Finance Committee and had the figures in real terms in front of him yesterday; I hope that he has retained them today. In our programme for government, we will provide eight major, new, modern hospital developments by 2003. That is the biggest ever hospital building programme in Scotland. We are setting targets to speed treatment and shorten waiting times. We are committed to ensuring that there are at least four modern computers for each class by 2003 and we are committed to recruiting 1,000 additional teachers and 5,000 classroom assistants by 2002. Our spending priorities for 2000-01 demonstrate wider commitments to tackle the serious problems in housing deprivation across Scotland and the decay in Scottish transport systems. We are also committed to sustaining our environment. The partnership has delivered new money for roads, for health, for the Food Standards Agency, for action on drugs—", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Davidson is a member of the Finance Committee and had the figures in real terms in front of him yesterday; I hope that he has retained them today.

In our programme for government, we will provide eight major, new, modern hospital developments by 2003. That is the biggest ever hospital building programme in Scotland. We are setting targets to speed treatment and shorten waiting times.

We are committed to ensuring that there are at least four modern computers for each class by 2003 and we are committed to recruiting 1,000 additional teachers and 5,000 classroom assistants by 2002.

Our spending priorities for 2000-01 demonstrate wider commitments to tackle the serious problems in housing deprivation across Scotland and the decay in Scottish transport systems. We are also committed to sustaining our environment. The partnership has delivered new money for roads, for health, for the Food Standards Agency, for action on drugs—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C713887", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 72.0, "ContributionID": 713887, "EditedText": "New money that did not appear—", "EditedTextHTML": "New money that did not appear—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713889", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 76.0, "ContributionID": 713889, "EditedText": "Order.", "EditedTextHTML": "Order.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C713891", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 80.0, "ContributionID": 713891, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C713893", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan (Glasgow) (SSP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 84.0, "ContributionID": 713893, "EditedText": "Would the Minister for Finance agree that the problem with the figures that he presents is shown in the recent Trades Union Congress report on public expenditure in Britain, which states that we have a Government not for three years, but for five years? Although he is correct to say that the comprehensive spending review indicates an increase in spending on public services, spending over a five-year period will be even less than it was under the previous Tory Government.", "EditedTextHTML": "Would the Minister for Finance agree that the problem with the figures that he presents is shown in the recent Trades Union Congress report on public

expenditure in Britain, which states that we have a Government not for three years, but for five years? Although he is correct to say that the comprehensive spending review indicates an increase in spending on public services, spending over a five-year period will be even less than it was under the previous Tory Government.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C713895", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 88.0, "ContributionID": 713895, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C713897", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 92.0, "ContributionID": 713897, "EditedText": "He said before that he would give way.", "EditedTextHTML": "He said before that he would give way.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713898", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 94.0, "ContributionID": 713898, "EditedText": "Order. Please—no more interventions. The minister has been generous in giving way and he is running over time already,", "EditedTextHTML": "Order. Please—no more interventions. The minister has been generous in giving way and he is running over time already,

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C713900", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 98.0, "ContributionID": 713900, "EditedText": "Mr Swinney does not want me to make these points, but I will make them. If the nationalists had won the 1997 election in Scotland, at least £400 million less would have been spent in Scotland this year. Those figures are taken directly from the SNP's 1997 manifesto. Next year, spending would have been £1 billion lower and, the year after that, it would have been almost £1.25 billion lower—a total of some £2.5 billion less for Scotland's services.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Swinney does not want me to make these points, but I will make them. If the nationalists had won the 1997 election in Scotland, at least £400 million less would have been spent in Scotland this year. Those figures are taken directly from the SNP's 1997 manifesto. Next year, spending would have been £1 billion lower and, the year after that, it would have been almost £1.25 billion lower—a total of some £2.5 billion less for Scotland's services.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C713901", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 100.0, "ContributionID": 713901, "EditedText": "Not true.", "EditedTextHTML": "Not true.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C713906", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 110.0, "ContributionID": 713906, "EditedText": "I am just doing so, Presiding Officer. The figures published in October and the further details laid out in November represent our commitment to the future and our desire to make the lives of ordinary Scots better. They demonstrate clearly the broad canvas on which the Executive operates, with the real priorities identified and addressed. If government is about choices, that is particularly true of budgeting. In a world of unlimited resources, we could do more and do it more quickly, but in this world—our world—the task is to set priorities, plan spending and work out how to deliver maximum benefit across Scottish society and business with the resources that we have to hand—to set targets, meet them and rebuild public confidence in politics. These plans are a reasonable, prudent and pragmatic attempt to change for the better the lives of the people of Scotland and I commend them to the Parliament. I move,That the Parliament commends the Executive's expenditure plans published in the consultation paper Spending Plans for Scotland on 17 November 1999 and endorses the spending priorities set out in the paper in line with the commitments of the Partnership Agreement and the Programme for Government.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am just doing so, Presiding Officer.

The figures published in October and the further details laid out in November represent our commitment to the future and our desire to make the lives of ordinary Scots better. They demonstrate clearly the broad canvas on which the Executive operates, with the real priorities identified and addressed. If government is about choices, that is particularly true of budgeting. In a world of unlimited resources, we could do more and do it more quickly, but in this world—our world—the task is to set priorities, plan spending and work out how to deliver maximum benefit across Scottish society and business with the resources that we have to hand—to set targets, meet them and rebuild public confidence in politics. These plans are a reasonable, prudent and pragmatic attempt to change for the better the lives of the people of Scotland and I commend them to the Parliament.

I move,

That the Parliament commends the Executive's expenditure plans published in the consultation paper Spending Plans for Scotland on 17 November 1999 and endorses the spending priorities set out in the paper in line with the commitments of the Partnership Agreement and the Programme for Government.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C713907", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 113.0, "ContributionID": 713907, "EditedText": "I thank the Minister for Finance for his visionary and statesmanlike performance. I welcome the opportunity to engage in this debate and to move the SNP's amendment to the Lib-Lab motion, which asks the Parliament to thank the Executive for spending less than the Conservatives spent. In passing, I will answer the Minister for Finance's point. The SNP spending plans to which he referred were for extra spending over and above what the Westminster Government delivers—they were for new spending from extra revenues raised. That was a mis-spin from the minister's slippery performance. I ask him to reflect on Mr Davidson's question. The minister said at the beginning of his speech that next year's budget would be £16.7 billion; in real terms, however, the budget is £15.9 billion—£800 million less. The minister may wish to reflect on that unnecessary detail. My colleagues and I want to introduce into the debate some facts about public spending. Most people in Scotland do not expect to hear facts from the mouths of Labour spokespeople these days. However, it is refreshing that we can introduce some truths—I hope that that word is not too foreign—into the debate. For example, in its first three years in government, Labour spent £1,100 million less than was spent during the final three years of the Conservative Government. I do not remember regarding the Conservatives as particularly generous in their Scottish budgets. Indeed, I remember the Labour party and the Lib Dems— when they existed—complaining about the decline of Scottish public services. Those sitting on the Labour benches cannot deny that. There was only one year for which I can find records in which any post-war Government cut health spending—only one year has not been a record year for health spending. Nye Bevan would be proud—this Labour Government made history in its first year by cutting health spending for the first time ever. This year, of course, the Labour Government is making up for that, with a massive 0.5 per cent increase in health spending. Our nurses and doctors are not safe in Labour's hands. Labour is committing less of the nation's wealth to public services than has been spent at any point for which I can find records. Under Ian Lang, the commitment was 24 per cent of Scotland's public wealth. A written answer from the Minister for Finance on 3 December shows that next year the figure will be 21 per cent. That may seem big, but it represents in effect a cut in investment in Scottish public services of £4.5 billion, or £900 for every man, woman and child in Scotland. If we had allowed the state of public services to keep pace with growth in the economy and not let them lag, that would have made a difference to our schools, hospitals, transport infrastructure and, most important, our local democracy. If any of those facts are wrong, I urge members from the Liberal Democrats or the Labour party to stand up and contradict them directly, rather than skirt around them in a slippery fashion. The facts for local government are even starker. Today, as councils throughout Scotland announce cuts, we should reflect on the fact that the Labour- dominated Convention of Scottish Local Authorities has unanimously condemned the settlement for budgets for council services—my colleague Kenny Gibson will address that issue— as councils throughout Scotland have been hammered by the Lib-Lab pact. Labour has given £2.4 billion less to council services in the first three years of its period in office than was given under the last three years of the Tory Government, and we did not regard the Tories as particularly generous to local councils. As a result, council tax payments are up by £0.25 billion and, as we heard last week, are set to spiral. On top of that, business rates are set to soar. It is a dire situation for Scottish local government and a desperate one for this Parliament to consider.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the Minister for Finance for his visionary and statesmanlike performance. I welcome the opportunity to engage in this debate and to move the SNP's amendment to the Lib-Lab motion, which asks the Parliament to thank the Executive for spending less than the Conservatives spent.

In passing, I will answer the Minister for Finance's point. The SNP spending plans to which he referred were for extra spending over and above what the Westminster Government delivers—they were for new spending from extra

revenues raised. That was a mis-spin from the minister's slippery performance. I ask him to reflect on Mr Davidson's question. The minister said at the beginning of his speech that next year's budget would be £16.7 billion; in real terms, however, the budget is £15.9 billion—£800 million less. The minister may wish to reflect on that unnecessary detail.

My colleagues and I want to introduce into the debate some facts about public spending. Most people in Scotland do not expect to hear facts from the mouths of Labour spokespeople these days. However, it is refreshing that we can introduce some truths—I hope that that word is not too foreign—into the debate.

For example, in its first three years in government, Labour spent £1,100 million less than was spent during the final three years of the Conservative Government. I do not remember regarding the Conservatives as particularly generous in their Scottish budgets. Indeed, I remember the Labour party and the Lib Dems— when they existed—complaining about the decline of Scottish public services. Those sitting on the Labour benches cannot deny that. There was only one year for which I can find records in which any post-war Government cut health spending—only one year has not been a record year for health spending. Nye Bevan would be proud—this Labour Government made history in its first year by cutting health spending for the first time ever. This year, of course, the Labour Government is making up for that, with a massive 0.5 per cent increase in health spending. Our nurses and doctors are not safe in Labour's hands.

Labour is committing less of the nation's wealth to public services than has been spent at any point for which I can find records. Under Ian Lang, the commitment was 24 per cent of Scotland's public wealth. A written answer from the Minister for Finance on 3 December shows that next year the figure will be 21 per cent. That may seem big, but it represents in effect a cut in investment in Scottish public services of £4.5 billion, or £900 for every man, woman and child in Scotland. If we had allowed the state of public services to keep pace with growth in the economy and not let them lag, that would have made a difference to our schools, hospitals, transport infrastructure and, most important, our local democracy. If any of those facts are wrong, I urge members from the Liberal Democrats or the Labour party to stand up and contradict them directly, rather than skirt around them in a slippery fashion.

The facts for local government are even starker. Today, as councils throughout Scotland announce cuts, we should reflect on the fact that the Labour- dominated Convention of Scottish Local Authorities has unanimously condemned the settlement for budgets for council services—my colleague Kenny Gibson will address that issue— as councils throughout Scotland have been hammered by the Lib-Lab pact. Labour has given £2.4 billion less to council services in the first three years of its period in office than was given under the last three years of the Tory Government, and we did not regard the Tories as particularly generous to local councils. As a result, council tax payments are up by £0.25 billion and, as we heard last week, are set to spiral. On top of that, business rates are set to soar. It is a dire situation for Scottish local government and a desperate one for this Parliament to consider.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C713910", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 119.0, "ContributionID": 713910, "EditedText": "I point out to the Minister for Finance that Fergus Ewing was reflecting the desires of Highlands and Islands Enterprise—one of the Government's own agencies—in calling for that money. The role of any party in this Parliament is to bring to the chamber the desires of public services throughout Scotland. Mr McConnell must answer for the fact that Jack's tax means that Scottish business is suffering, as business organisations throughout Scotland would agree. Jack's tax—as we are calling it—means that the residents of Dundee and Glasgow will pay twice as much in council tax as residents of London will. The increases in council taxation, as a result of Jack's tax, will mean that the average Scot will pay 7.5 per cent more in council tax, at band D, than the UK average. Labour is fiddling the figures while Scottish local government burns. Do not just trust me—listen to what the councils have to say and listen to Labour-dominated COSLA when it reflects on the facts of Scottish local government decline. I ask the minister to reflect on the fact that spending on health, education and all comparable services is increasing two and half times more quickly in England than it is in Scotland—those are not my figures, but the figures of Professor Brian Ashcroft of the Fraser of Allander Institute. Is that fair and right? Does the minister recognise that a Barnett squeeze is biting hard on Scottish public services? Will he act on that? That is what the SNP amendment asks him to do. It is not enough to focus on the narrow picture that the Executive—the Lib-Lab pact—will paint for us in this Parliament. We should look beyond the end of our noses, as the amendment seeks to do. We need look no further than Ireland. Barely a fortnight ago, with the tools of a normal country at his disposal, Ireland's Minister for Finance, Charlie McCreevy, delivered a budget that will allow all Ireland's people to share in its prosperity. Old-age pensions in Ireland rose by £7 a week—not 73p. When they reach 100 years of age, pensioners in Ireland will receive a bounty of £2,000. Laughter. Members may laugh—", "EditedTextHTML": "I point out to the Minister for Finance that Fergus Ewing was reflecting the desires of Highlands and Islands Enterprise—one of the Government's own agencies—in calling for that money.

The role of any party in this Parliament is to bring to the chamber the desires of public services throughout Scotland. Mr McConnell must answer for the fact that Jack's tax means that Scottish business is suffering, as business organisations throughout Scotland would agree. Jack's tax—as we are calling it—means that the residents of Dundee and Glasgow will pay twice as much in council tax as residents of London will. The increases in council taxation, as a result of Jack's tax, will mean that the average Scot will pay 7.5 per cent more in council tax, at band D, than the UK average. Labour is fiddling the figures while Scottish local government burns. Do not just trust me—listen to what the councils have to say and listen to Labour-dominated COSLA when it reflects on the facts of Scottish local government decline.

I ask the minister to reflect on the fact that spending on health, education and all comparable services is increasing two and half times more quickly in England than it is in Scotland—those are not my figures, but the figures of Professor Brian Ashcroft of the Fraser of Allander Institute. Is that fair and right? Does the minister recognise that a Barnett squeeze is biting hard on Scottish public services? Will he act on that? That is what the SNP amendment asks him to do.

It is not enough to focus on the narrow picture that the Executive—the Lib-Lab pact—will paint for us in this Parliament. We should look beyond the end of our noses, as the amendment seeks to do. We need look no further than Ireland. Barely a fortnight ago, with the tools of a normal country at his disposal, Ireland's Minister for Finance, Charlie McCreevy, delivered a budget that will allow all Ireland's people to share in its prosperity. Old-age pensions in Ireland rose by £7 a week—not 73p. When they reach 100 years of age, pensioners in Ireland will receive a bounty of £2,000. [Laughter.] Members may laugh—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C713911", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon (Argyll and Bute) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 121.0, "ContributionID": 713911, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C713913", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 125.0, "ContributionID": 713913, "EditedText": "Does Andrew Wilson also agree with the provision in Mr McCreevy's budget that stipulates that everyone in Ireland who wants to access the country's national health service can receive free health care only if they earn less than £11,000 per year? Anyone who earns above that must contribute to a private insurance scheme.", "EditedTextHTML": "Does Andrew Wilson also agree with the provision in Mr McCreevy's budget that stipulates that everyone in Ireland who wants to access the country's national health service can receive free health care only if they earn less than £11,000 per year? Anyone who earns above that must contribute to a private insurance scheme.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C713918", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 135.0, "ContributionID": 713918, "EditedText": "No, is the short answer. What Ireland shows is that low corporation tax can be mixed with progressive income tax.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, is the short answer. What Ireland shows is that low corporation tax can be mixed with progressive income tax.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C713921", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Simpson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 141.0, "ContributionID": 713921, "EditedText": "Andrew Wilson has been very eloquent in saying how much extra spending the SNP would provide, but he has said absolutely nothing about how he would raise that money. Would the level of VAT go up, or would the level of income tax go up? How would the SNP raise the millions and billions of pounds that it promises every week?", "EditedTextHTML": "Andrew Wilson has been very eloquent in saying how much extra spending the SNP would provide, but he has said absolutely nothing about how he would raise that money. Would the level of VAT go up, or would the level of income tax go up? How would the SNP raise the millions and billions of pounds that it promises every week?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C713922", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 143.0, "ContributionID": 713922, "EditedText": "The member has been one of the fairest contributors to the debate on finance. I ask him to reflect on the fact that we were very honest at the election in saying that our priority was not a 1p cut in income tax, but a freeze in tax. We also pointed out that we could access the £20,000 million that will come out of the North sea in the next five years. Our priority is not a war chest, but investment in public services. I ask Dr Simpson how our country, after the war, when it was infinitely poorer than it is today, could afford to demobilise the troops, rebuild our homes, schools and infrastructure, and build a welfare state and a modern health service that was the envy of the world. The answer is that the country chose to do it. Nye Bevan—a man whom members may remember—said that socialism was \"the language of priorities\" and that those priorities were jobs and social justice. That point remains, whether one wants to use the terms socialism or social democracy. Our amendment seeks to follow what Jimmy Maxton said in the 1920s—he said that \"a home rule parliament could do in five years what it would take Westminster 25 years to do.\" He was right, but that will be true only if we give ourselves the chance. For Labour, the Thatcher agenda has won. For us and for Scotland, I hope that that agenda will not stand, because the choice for Scotland is between constraint and growth—between what Fergus Ewing has called Jack's tax and honest investment in public services. We have the chance to grow into a normal country and to make normal choices for ourselves. I urge the chamber to back the amendment. I move amendment S1M-378.1, to leave out from \"commends\" to end and insert: \"notes the increased pressure being placed on the Scottish budget through the effects of the ‘Barnett Squeeze', which means that spending is increased two and a half times quicker in England than in Scotland despite the fact that there is no evidence of a reduction in relative need; calls upon the Scottish Executive to prepare a detailed assessment of the impact of the ‘Barnett Squeeze' in consultation with the Finance Committee; regrets the fact that the Parliament is not responsible for raising the revenue it allocates, and notes that normal fiscal autonomy would secure maximum fiscal responsibility and accountability and would allow the Scottish Parliament to allocate the required resources for Scottish public services\".", "EditedTextHTML": "The member has been one of the fairest contributors to the debate on finance. I ask him to reflect on the fact that we were very honest at the election in saying that our priority was not a 1p cut in income tax, but a freeze in tax.

We also pointed out that we could access the £20,000 million that will come out of the North sea in the next five years. Our priority is not a war chest, but investment in public services. I ask Dr Simpson how our country, after the war, when it was infinitely poorer than it is today, could afford to demobilise the troops, rebuild our homes, schools and infrastructure, and build a welfare state and a modern health service that was the envy of the world. The answer is that the country chose to do it.

Nye Bevan—a man whom members may remember—said that socialism was \"the language of priorities\" and that those priorities were jobs and social justice. That point remains, whether one wants to use the terms socialism or social democracy. Our amendment seeks to follow what Jimmy Maxton said in the 1920s—he said that

\"a home rule parliament could do in five years what it would take Westminster 25 years to do.\"

He was right, but that will be true only if we give ourselves the chance.

For Labour, the Thatcher agenda has won. For us and for Scotland, I hope that that agenda will not stand, because the choice for Scotland is between constraint and growth—between what Fergus Ewing has called Jack's tax and honest investment in public services. We have the chance to grow into a normal country and to make normal choices for ourselves. I urge the chamber to back the amendment.

I move amendment S1M-378.1, to leave out from \"commends\" to end and insert:

\"notes the increased pressure being placed on the Scottish budget through the effects of the ‘Barnett Squeeze', which means that spending is increased two and a half times quicker in England than in Scotland despite the fact that there is no evidence of a reduction in relative need; calls upon the Scottish Executive to prepare a detailed assessment of the impact of the ‘Barnett Squeeze' in consultation with the Finance Committee; regrets the fact that the Parliament is not responsible for raising the revenue it allocates, and notes that normal fiscal autonomy would secure maximum fiscal responsibility and accountability and would allow the Scottish Parliament to allocate the required resources for Scottish public services\".

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C713931", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 162.0, "ContributionID": 713931, "EditedText": "The answer is no. Returning to what Mr Davidson has just said, the overall expenditure in Scotland would have been significantly less this year, next year and the year after that, had the Conservatives remained in power. That is stated in the figures that they published. Year on year, the Conservative Government managed to underspend the Scottish budget. The money was not carried forward as it has been this year under Labour; it was kept back at UK level for redistribution in the future.", "EditedTextHTML": "The answer is no. Returning to what Mr Davidson has just said, the overall expenditure in Scotland would have been significantly less this year, next year and the year after that, had the Conservatives remained in power. That is stated in the figures that they published. Year on year, the Conservative Government managed to underspend the Scottish budget. The money was not carried forward as it has been this year under Labour; it was kept back at UK level for redistribution in the future.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C713933", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 166.0, "ContributionID": 713933, "EditedText": "May I clarify what Mr McConnell is arguing? He is arguing that the Executive is spending less than the Conservatives did, but if the Conservatives were in government they would spend even less.", "EditedTextHTML": "May I clarify what Mr McConnell is arguing? He is arguing that the Executive is spending less than the Conservatives did, but if the Conservatives were in government they would spend even less.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C713936", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Davidson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 172.0, "ContributionID": 713936, "EditedText": "Will he come to the Audit Committee and argue that point? We had pre-election promises from the Liberal Democrats. I will not list them all, but they ranged from the abolition of Skye bridge tolls to 1,000 additional nurses and 500 doctors. The list went on and on. None of them has been realised. The best promise of all was the promise to abolish tuition fees. If I remember rightly, on 4 May Jim Wallace said that tuition fees would be dead by the following Friday.", "EditedTextHTML": "Will he come to the Audit Committee and argue that point?

We had pre-election promises from the Liberal Democrats. I will not list them all, but they ranged from the abolition of Skye bridge tolls to 1,000 additional nurses and 500 doctors. The list went on and on. None of them has been realised. The best promise of all was the promise to abolish tuition fees. If I remember rightly, on 4 May Jim Wallace said that tuition fees would be dead by the following Friday.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C713946", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 193.0, "ContributionID": 713946, "EditedText": "Miss Goldie must not get carried away because she has been nominated as a front bencher to watch. That happened only because, within her party, she is elevated by the flatness of the surrounding countryside. That is a cautionary compliment. She must not get over-excited and intervene too early because I have a lot more to say about the Tories. In just one day they saw more than half the Scottish block disappear down the drain, and with those reserves went their economic credibility. They have absolutely none. Certainly Mr Davidson has none. On behalf of the Scottish Liberal Democrats, I support a budget that provides the highest ever real-terms spending in Scotland. We are proud to support the partnership and the minister. We congratulate him on the excellent job that he has done. We welcome the broad thrust of the budget—it reflects the partnership agreement— particularly the extra £80 million for Scottish education, which will deliver 500 more teachers. It will also provide more new books and equipment for every school, classroom and pupil in Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "Miss Goldie must not get carried away because she has been nominated as a front bencher to watch. That happened only because, within her party, she is elevated by the flatness of the surrounding countryside. That is a cautionary compliment. She must not get over-excited and intervene too early because I have a lot more to say about the Tories. In just one day they saw more than half the Scottish block disappear down the drain, and with those reserves went their economic credibility. They have absolutely none. Certainly Mr Davidson has none.

On behalf of the Scottish Liberal Democrats, I support a budget that provides the highest ever real-terms spending in Scotland. We are proud to support the partnership and the minister. We congratulate him on the excellent job that he has done. We welcome the broad thrust of the budget—it reflects the partnership agreement— particularly the extra £80 million for Scottish education, which will deliver 500 more teachers. It will also provide more new books and equipment for every school, classroom and pupil in Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C713947", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 195.0, "ContributionID": 713947, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1926E190P479C713953", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Adam, Brian", "ID": 1926, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Adam", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Brian Adam: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 207.0, "ContributionID": 713953, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C713956", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 213.0, "ContributionID": 713956, "EditedText": "What about rationing?", "EditedTextHTML": "What about rationing?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C713957", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 215.0, "ContributionID": 713957, "EditedText": "If Mr Wilson had been paying attention, he would know that I mentioned rationing; I said that the situation could lead to rationing. About 86 per cent of the police budget is spent on wages and salaries—I mentioned that to the minister at the Finance Committee yesterday—so efficiency savings must be made on the remaining 14 per cent. Fife constabulary must make savings of 1 per cent this year, 1.7 per cent next year and 2.5 per cent the year after that. Those savings have been described to me by the chief constable of Fife as unsustainable in the long term. Our public services are under enormous strain because their budgets are under so much pressure, yet the chancellor continues to sit on the lid of his treasure chest.", "EditedTextHTML": "If Mr Wilson had been paying attention, he would know that I mentioned rationing; I said that the situation could lead to rationing.

About 86 per cent of the police budget is spent on wages and salaries—I mentioned that to the minister at the Finance Committee yesterday—so efficiency savings must be made on the remaining 14 per cent. Fife constabulary must make savings of 1 per cent this year, 1.7 per cent next year and

2.5 per cent the year after that. Those savings have been described to me by the chief constable of Fife as unsustainable in the long term. Our public services are under enormous strain

because their budgets are under so much pressure, yet the chancellor continues to sit on the lid of his treasure chest.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C713959", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 219.0, "ContributionID": 713959, "EditedText": "In a second.It is speculated that the contents of that treasure chest amount to anything from £10 billion to £13 billion—perhaps even more. The Liberal Democrats do not want that money to be released suddenly—pre-election—in one go. We do not call for huge increases in expenditure, but we do need gradual, phased, well-planned increases in spending where it is most needed.", "EditedTextHTML": "In a second.

It is speculated that the contents of that treasure chest amount to anything from £10 billion to £13 billion—perhaps even more. The Liberal Democrats do not want that money to be released suddenly—pre-election—in one go. We do not call for huge increases in expenditure, but we do need gradual, phased, well-planned increases in spending where it is most needed.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C713961", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 223.0, "ContributionID": 713961, "EditedText": "It has been said several times in the chamber that we are sure that the money can be found; perhaps Mr Neil was not present, but that was made quite clear. Tuition fees are a matter for next week and the following weeks. The Minister for Finance is a man whose ingenuity I have never underrated or doubted. Over the Christmas period, following the publication of the Cubie report, I know that the minister—with remarkable ease and in his usual relaxed style—will find the necessary resources to fund tuition fees. I am grateful to the Minister for Finance for the eyebrow that he just raised.", "EditedTextHTML": "It has been said several times in the chamber that we are sure that the money can be found; perhaps Mr Neil was not present, but that was made quite clear.

Tuition fees are a matter for next week and the following weeks. The Minister for Finance is a man whose ingenuity I have never underrated or doubted. Over the Christmas period, following the publication of the Cubie report, I know that the minister—with remarkable ease and in his usual relaxed style—will find the necessary resources to fund tuition fees. I am grateful to the Minister for Finance for the eyebrow that he just raised.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C713966", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 233.0, "ContributionID": 713966, "EditedText": "Where is it coming from?", "EditedTextHTML": "Where is it coming from?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C713969", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 239.0, "ContributionID": 713969, "EditedText": "Most of those spending promises have come from Mr MacAskill. He is completely out of control, as we know. His spending commitments did not, however, include a bus trip to Wembley.", "EditedTextHTML": "Most of those spending promises have come from Mr MacAskill. He is completely out of control, as we know. His spending commitments did not, however, include a bus trip to Wembley.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C713981", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 263.0, "ContributionID": 713981, "EditedText": "On 2 December, Mr MacAskill pledged £19 million for a national concessionary fares scheme—he makes daily appearances on this list—and £19 million was pledged for health trusts in Glasgow. Some—perhaps most—of that spending is desirable, but the SNP never tells us where the money will come from. The chancellor's treasure chest is not bulging.", "EditedTextHTML": "On 2 December, Mr MacAskill pledged £19 million for a national concessionary fares scheme—he makes daily appearances on this list—and £19 million was pledged for health trusts in Glasgow.

Some—perhaps most—of that spending is desirable, but the SNP never tells us where the money will come from. The chancellor's treasure chest is not bulging.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C713983", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 267.0, "ContributionID": 713983, "EditedText": "The SNP has taken a vow of silence on taxes. Mr Wilson withdrew from a debate with me on \"Good Morning Scotland\" this morning. I thought that he had more guts and that he would debate the spending pledges of his colleagues and the policies of his party, but he would not. The SNP's shadow chancellor is not made of iron—he is not made of any mettle at all. He has no control over SNP spokespersons, least of all over Mr MacAskill, who has gone from spending commitments to the proposal of new taxes on, for example, house sales. He would also divert revenues from certain taxes—such as landfill tax—to extra expenditure.", "EditedTextHTML": "The SNP has taken a vow of silence on taxes. Mr Wilson withdrew from a debate with me on \"Good Morning Scotland\" this morning. I thought that he had more guts and that he would debate the spending pledges of his colleagues and the policies of his party, but he would not. The SNP's shadow chancellor is not made of iron—he is not made of any mettle at all. He has no control over SNP spokespersons, least of all over Mr MacAskill, who has gone from spending commitments to the proposal of new taxes on, for example, house sales. He would also divert revenues from certain taxes—such as landfill tax—to extra expenditure.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2123E103P242C713989", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Chisholm, Malcolm", "ID": 2123, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh North and Leith" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Malcolm Chisholm", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Malcolm Chisholm: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 280.0, "ContributionID": 713989, "EditedText": "Mr Wilson was especially unwise to talk about health spending, given that health spending in Scotland is 20 per cent per head higher than it is in England. The point that Mr Wilson did not consider about the budget is that, over the three-year period of the comprehensive spending review, Scottish Parliament expenditure goes up by £856 million in real terms. Can Mr Wilson tell me of any three- year period in Scottish politics when that has happened? We should keep that fact in our minds. Mr Wilson was unwise enough to emphasise health. The real-terms increase in spending on health is £546 million over three years. Again, I defy Mr Wilson to find a three-year period in which there has been such an increase. It was especially inappropriate for Mr Davidson to talk about starvation of health funds in that context. In the papers today, Mr Wilson talks about the increase from this year to next. As I pointed out when I dropped in briefly to the Finance Committee yesterday, the reason for that is that there was a big in-year increase in health expenditure this year—an extra £140 million in October. That reduces the percentage increase from this year to next. Over three years, the increase in spending on health is £546 million in real terms, or 11 per cent. That is unprecedented.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Wilson was especially unwise to talk about health spending, given that health spending in Scotland is 20 per cent per head higher than it is in England.

The point that Mr Wilson did not consider about the budget is that, over the three-year period of the comprehensive spending review, Scottish Parliament expenditure goes up by £856 million in real terms. Can Mr Wilson tell me of any three- year period in Scottish politics when that has happened? We should keep that fact in our minds.

Mr Wilson was unwise enough to emphasise health. The real-terms increase in spending on health is £546 million over three years. Again, I defy Mr Wilson to find a three-year period in which there has been such an increase. It was especially inappropriate for Mr Davidson to talk about starvation of health funds in that context.

In the papers today, Mr Wilson talks about the increase from this year to next. As I pointed out when I dropped in briefly to the Finance Committee yesterday, the reason for that is that there was a big in-year increase in health expenditure this year—an extra £140 million in

October. That reduces the percentage increase from this year to next. Over three years, the increase in spending on health is £546 million in real terms, or 11 per cent. That is unprecedented.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2112E192P495C713994", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacAskill, Kenny", "ID": 2112, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenny MacAskill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr MacAskill: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 291.0, "ContributionID": 713994, "EditedText": "That is just what I am moving on to. The situation does not need to be as it is. We do not need to go cap in hand to London. We are an oil-rich country. We are also a highly taxed country. I will leave it to others in other debates to confirm the wealth of our country and to articulate the fact that only with independence can we build the nation that our people need and deserve—that is on a macro level. However, resources are available on a micro level to provide what we need. The minister offers a one-off investment of £2.5 million to Scottish local authorities to implement a waste strategy, while £40 million a year—and rising—is sent to London to be hypothecated to reduce employers' national insurance contributions. That is neither green nor environmentally sound. As has been said, we have the only airports in mainland UK with more than 4 million passengers but without direct rail links. However, £65 million— and rising—is paid in air passenger duty. Some £12 million is given to the Exchequer from fiscal fines, principally road traffic fines, at a time when we still have to pay tolls for bridges long since paid off. I say to Mr Raffan that the Erskine bridge makes a profit, as does the Forth road bridge, as the Automobile Association pointed out. When platitudes are uttered about cycle training and other such worthy measures, no funding is available to support them. We would not have to touch our oil revenues—a fraction of that £12 million would suffice. I could go on and on, listing Labour's hidden stealth taxes. The Labour party provides us with so-called financial cake but steals the bread from our mouths at every opportunity. Let us be clear: we do not need to live that way. Let this Parliament run our country. Labour can keep its charity; we will keep our oil revenues, our excise duties and our taxes.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is just what I am moving on to.

The situation does not need to be as it is. We do not need to go cap in hand to London. We are an oil-rich country. We are also a highly taxed

country. I will leave it to others in other debates to confirm the wealth of our country and to articulate the fact that only with independence can we build the nation that our people need and deserve—that is on a macro level. However, resources are available on a micro level to provide what we need. The minister offers a one-off investment of £2.5 million to Scottish local authorities to implement a waste strategy, while £40 million a year—and rising—is sent to London to be hypothecated to reduce employers' national insurance contributions. That is neither green nor environmentally sound.

As has been said, we have the only airports in mainland UK with more than 4 million passengers but without direct rail links. However, £65 million— and rising—is paid in air passenger duty.

Some £12 million is given to the Exchequer from fiscal fines, principally road traffic fines, at a time when we still have to pay tolls for bridges long since paid off. I say to Mr Raffan that the Erskine bridge makes a profit, as does the Forth road bridge, as the Automobile Association pointed out. When platitudes are uttered about cycle training and other such worthy measures, no funding is available to support them. We would not have to touch our oil revenues—a fraction of that £12 million would suffice.

I could go on and on, listing Labour's hidden stealth taxes. The Labour party provides us with so-called financial cake but steals the bread from our mouths at every opportunity. Let us be clear: we do not need to live that way. Let this Parliament run our country. Labour can keep its charity; we will keep our oil revenues, our excise duties and our taxes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C714001", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 307.0, "ContributionID": 714001, "EditedText": "Mr McNulty is correct in what he says, but I would like him to reflect on the long- term issue. Mr Chisholm mentioned that, according to the Government, 20 per cent of UK health spending is in Scotland. Does Mr McNulty agree that that is a fair share, or does he think that it should be reduced, as I expect will happen?", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr McNulty is correct in what he says, but I would like him to reflect on the long- term issue. Mr Chisholm mentioned that, according to the Government, 20 per cent of UK health spending is in Scotland. Does Mr McNulty agree that that is a fair share, or does he think that it should be reduced, as I expect will happen?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1970E66P288C714002", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNulty, Des", "ID": 1970, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Clydebank and Milngavie" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Des McNulty", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Des McNulty: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 309.0, "ContributionID": 714002, "EditedText": "The volume of health spending in Scotland is significantly higher than it is south of the border. It is interesting that Mr Wilson raises the health issue, given that members of his party have been particularly prominent in opposing the early implementation of the findings of the Arbuthnott report. Before I became an MSP, I sat on Greater Glasgow Health Board, which, under the Scottish health authorities revenue equalisation formula, was faced with a progressive, relative reduction in the amount that it could expend, despite having Scotland's greatest health needs. That reduction was relative because money was being diverted elsewhere under the formula introduced by the Conservative Government. The Arbuthnott formula is a method of changing that by linking health spending more closely to need. The budget contains a series of proposals that reinforce that process of change. Addressing health disadvantage is not just about health spending, but about dealing with housing expenditure, employment-linked expenditure and the way in which local government expenditure is implemented. All those aspects need to be brought together to deal with health disadvantage. Simply arguing about the volume of money that has been or could be spent and arcane Treasury processes is not addressing the issue. We must consider how we bring together the resources— health, local government and housing expenditure—to ensure that we bring benefits to our people, particularly those in areas of the greatest health disadvantage.", "EditedTextHTML": "The volume of health spending in Scotland is significantly higher than it is south of the border. It is interesting that Mr Wilson raises the health issue, given that members of his party have been particularly prominent in opposing the early implementation of the findings of the Arbuthnott report.

Before I became an MSP, I sat on Greater Glasgow Health Board, which, under the Scottish health authorities revenue equalisation formula, was faced with a progressive, relative reduction in the amount that it could expend, despite having Scotland's greatest health needs. That reduction was relative because money was being diverted elsewhere under the formula introduced by the Conservative Government. The Arbuthnott formula is a method of changing that by linking health spending more closely to need.

The budget contains a series of proposals that reinforce that process of change. Addressing health disadvantage is not just about health spending, but about dealing with housing expenditure, employment-linked expenditure and the way in which local government expenditure is implemented. All those aspects need to be brought together to deal with health disadvantage. Simply arguing about the volume of money that has been or could be spent and arcane Treasury processes is not addressing the issue. We must consider how we bring together the resources— health, local government and housing expenditure—to ensure that we bring benefits to our people, particularly those in areas of the greatest health disadvantage.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C714003", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Davidson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 311.0, "ContributionID": 714003, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1970E66P288C714004", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNulty, Des", "ID": 1970, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Clydebank and Milngavie" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Des McNulty", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Des McNulty: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 313.0, "ContributionID": 714004, "EditedText": "No. I will carry on speaking, because I do not have much time. I represent a mixed area: Clydebank, in West Dunbartonshire, which is the local authority area of highest health disadvantage in Scotland, and Bearsden and Milngavie, which is relatively prosperous, with fairly good health statistics. To address the issue of poor health in Scotland, we must consider the fairness of allocation across Scotland, to ensure that the services that are provided reflect the pattern of need. We must not look at that purely in terms of particular initiatives; rather, we must bend the spend across a range of budget heads. We must consider how local government and health allocations are put forward and the way in which money is routed into local enterprise companies and Scottish Homes, to ensure that we apply the principles of social justice and fairness. That is what the Government is about and that is what the economic debate in Scotland should be about. We must discuss how we organise the way in which we allocate and plan expenditure, to ensure that we provide services that match needs. I regret that we are not having that debate, but I hope that I have pointed us in the right direction.", "EditedTextHTML": "No. I will carry on speaking, because I do not have much time.

I represent a mixed area: Clydebank, in West Dunbartonshire, which is the local authority area of highest health disadvantage in Scotland, and Bearsden and Milngavie, which is relatively prosperous, with fairly good health statistics. To address the issue of poor health in Scotland, we must consider the fairness of allocation across Scotland, to ensure that the services that are provided reflect the pattern of need. We must not look at that purely in terms of particular initiatives; rather, we must bend the spend across a range of budget heads. We must consider how local government and health allocations are put forward and the way in which money is routed into local enterprise companies and Scottish Homes, to ensure that we apply the principles of social justice and fairness.

That is what the Government is about and that is what the economic debate in Scotland should be about. We must discuss how we organise the way in which we allocate and plan expenditure, to

ensure that we provide services that match needs. I regret that we are not having that debate, but I hope that I have pointed us in the right direction.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C714006", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Simpson rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 318.0, "ContributionID": 714006, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C714008", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Simpson rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 322.0, "ContributionID": 714008, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C714014", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 335.0, "ContributionID": 714014, "EditedText": "I will come to the Liberal Democrats' specific spending commitments, of which education was a key priority. Although we welcome the huge increase in funding that will come into Scotland in the next two or three years, there is still a major case to be made at Westminster for the Chancellor of the Exchequer to free up some of his huge reserves. I hope that Scottish ministers will make a case for the next comprehensive spending review to allocate some money to support our hard-pressed public services. As Keith Raffan said, the partnership Government will deliver an extra £80 million for education, which is an extra £8,000 to every Scottish school for books and equipment. There will be an extra £26 million for schemes to improve public transport, which includes a welcome £13.5 million for rural Scotland. There will be 200 extra police officers for the drugs enforcement agency and £12 million for the healthy homes initiative, to improve 100,000 cold or damp homes. Finally, there will be £91 million over three years for the child care strategy, and the highest ever share of national wealth is now being spent on the health budget. The Scottish Liberal Democrats certainly support those major increases in funding. The Scottish National party makes much of comparisons with England. We recognise that the Barnett formula will narrow the gap between England and Scotland, but there is a massive difference in the amount spent on Scotland year on year, which is a fact that the SNP has failed to acknowledge at every turn. Independent figures from Stephen Boyle of the Royal Bank of Scotland show that identifiable spending per capita in Scotland was 19 per cent higher than the UK average and per capita programme spending in Scotland is higher than in any other UK programme. The Scottish premium is greatest in such areas as agriculture, housing, environmental services and economic development. Those are independent, not Government, figures, which demonstrate that there have been substantial increases in the Scottish budget.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will come to the Liberal Democrats' specific spending commitments, of which education was a key priority.

Although we welcome the huge increase in funding that will come into Scotland in the next two or three years, there is still a major case to be made at Westminster for the Chancellor of the Exchequer to free up some of his huge reserves. I hope that Scottish ministers will make a case for the next comprehensive spending review to allocate some money to support our hard-pressed public services.

As Keith Raffan said, the partnership Government will deliver an extra £80 million for education, which is an extra £8,000 to every Scottish school for books and equipment. There will be an extra £26 million for schemes to improve public transport, which includes a welcome £13.5 million for rural Scotland. There will be 200 extra police officers for the drugs enforcement agency and £12 million for the healthy homes initiative, to improve 100,000 cold or damp homes. Finally, there will be £91 million over three years for the child care strategy, and the highest ever share of national wealth is now being spent on the health budget. The Scottish Liberal Democrats certainly support those major increases in funding.

The Scottish National party makes much of comparisons with England. We recognise that the Barnett formula will narrow the gap between England and Scotland, but there is a massive difference in the amount spent on Scotland year on year, which is a fact that the SNP has failed to acknowledge at every turn. Independent figures from Stephen Boyle of the Royal Bank of Scotland show that identifiable spending per capita in Scotland was 19 per cent higher than the UK average and per capita programme spending in Scotland is higher than in any other UK programme. The Scottish premium is greatest in such areas as agriculture, housing, environmental services and economic development. Those are independent, not Government, figures, which demonstrate that there have been substantial increases in the Scottish budget.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C714016", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 339.0, "ContributionID": 714016, "EditedText": "As I said earlier, the Chancellor of the Exchequer at Westminster should increase public spending to allow that share to increase again. We need to discuss the Barnett formula; I will support any such discussions in the Finance Committee. However, we must be careful about opening up that debate, because there might be negatives as well as positives to consider. Governments are responsible for ensuring that priorities are met while keeping the books balanced. There is a stark difference between the partnership Government's policies and the SNP's wish list. As Keith Raffan said, the SNP's spending commitments stand at £1.38 billion, which works out at £13 million a day since September. If spending is maintained at that level, it will have risen to £17 billion by the next election. The basic level of tax would have to increase by 99 per cent to cover that. How on earth can such la-la-land economics be taken seriously? Promises of endless cash being chucked at every problem only make good copy for the papers. Andrew Wilson cannot control his spending spokespeople, who are led by Kenny MacAskill. The SNP should change its name to NSP—the national spending party.", "EditedTextHTML": "As I said earlier, the Chancellor of the Exchequer at Westminster should increase public spending to allow that share to increase again.

We need to discuss the Barnett formula; I will support any such discussions in the Finance Committee. However, we must be careful about opening up that debate, because there might be negatives as well as positives to consider.

Governments are responsible for ensuring that priorities are met while keeping the books balanced. There is a stark difference between the partnership Government's policies and the SNP's wish list. As Keith Raffan said, the SNP's spending commitments stand at £1.38 billion, which works out at £13 million a day since September. If spending is maintained at that level, it will have risen to £17 billion by the next election. The basic level of tax would have to increase by 99 per cent to cover that. How on earth can such la-la-land economics be taken seriously? Promises of endless cash being chucked at every problem only make good copy for the papers.

Andrew Wilson cannot control his spending spokespeople, who are led by Kenny MacAskill. The SNP should change its name to NSP—the national spending party.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2142E142P230C714017", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Watson, Mike", "ID": 2142, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Cathcart" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Watson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mike Watson (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 342.0, "ContributionID": 714017, "EditedText": "This has been a lively and important debate, which has been informed by the deliberations of the Finance Committee. However, only Andrew Wilson has made a brief reference to the fact that the Finance Committee report is available, and I am not sure that everyone who has spoken in the debate has received it. The report highlights a number of areas where the Finance Committee probed the Government's initial figures. The Minister for Finance appeared before the committee on three occasions to discuss the issues. The report contains valuable points, some of them critical of the Minister for Finance, although he took the criticism in good part and responded positively. As a result, members will be even better informed when the 2001-02 figures come to Parliament for consideration, as the new three-stage system will be fully operational and the subject committees will have the opportunity to discuss in considerable detail the Scottish Executive's proposals. The process for dealing with the Scottish budget will be even more open than has been possible in the past, which I welcome. I welcome also the minister's commitment to provide real-terms figures, to which most members who have participated in today's debate have referred and which, for obvious reasons, will be much more helpful.The figures must be put in their context. It is predictable that there has been considerable criticism, particularly from the Scottish National party. It is instructive that its members often use England as the basis for comparisons, when it is the party's policy to break all ties with England. In fairness to Andrew Wilson, he was far more relevant when he cited the Republic of Ireland. If the SNP wants to break away and have an independent Scotland, why use England as the basis for comparisons? Why then turn round and ask Labour or Liberal Democrat members why spending levels are so much higher in Scotland and whether we want to maintain them at that level, as Andrew Wilson has just done? The reasons why levels of spending, particularly on things such as housing and health, are so much higher are well known. The priority is to tackle the root causes of those problems. The funding that has been made available in the budget will enable that to be done. Des McNulty was absolutely right: the important thing is to prioritise resources within the various budget heads and to consider how resources are allocated and used. I am sure that almost any Labour or Liberal Democrat member could speak to the Minister for Finance one to one to argue for greater resources for a particular measure or for their local area. The budget must be considered overall. There is no point in picking out one item and asking specifically what will be done on education or housing. Issues are being tackled in a wide array of ways and through different funding initiatives in addition to the budget heads that we are discussing today. It is important to put the debate in that context. It is a bit wearing to keep hearing the same arguments. Mr MacAskill was at it again today. He keeps coming back to questions of funding for transport and comparing what Mr Prescott is doing in England with what we are doing here. The point is that we are trying to do things differently in Scotland. I find it strange and perplexing that Mr MacAskill wants to use England as a reference point. It is far more instructive to examine the figures that are before us and decide what can be done with the resources that we have in Scotland. We all argue for a maximisation of those resources in our areas, but it is important to understand that the way in which the budget is evolving, particularly with the end-year flexibility produced by the comprehensive spending review, will have an impact in a number of departments. That fact has been widely recognised. welcome the budget overall, but greater consideration must be given to the allocation of budget heads, and there must be recognition of what that will mean in different parts of the country. Rural affairs will have an increasing claim on resources, but recent figures on health, housing and other aspects of life in Glasgow mean that those must be priorities. Those of us who represent the city will continue to argue for increased resources. Nevertheless, overall, it is disingenuous to talk about cuts when the real-terms figures are higher than have ever been produced, particularly in health, where around £700 million more will be spent in this three-year period than in the previous three-year period. I welcome the fact that we are at the start of a process, which in future years will be even more fruitful, because the whole Parliament, the subject committees and many more members of the Parliament will have contributed to the plans in the early stages, before they come to the chamber at stage 3.", "EditedTextHTML": "This has been a lively and important debate, which has been informed by the deliberations of the Finance Committee. However, only Andrew Wilson has made a brief reference to the fact that the Finance Committee report is available, and I am not sure that everyone who has spoken in the debate has received it.

The report highlights a number of areas where the Finance Committee probed the Government's initial figures. The Minister for Finance appeared before the committee on three occasions to discuss the issues. The report contains valuable points, some of them critical of the Minister for Finance, although he took the criticism in good part and responded positively. As a result, members will be even better informed when the 2001-02 figures come to Parliament for consideration, as the new three-stage system will be fully operational and the subject committees will have the opportunity to discuss in considerable detail the Scottish Executive's proposals. The process for dealing with the Scottish budget will be even more open than has been possible in the past, which I welcome.

I welcome also the minister's commitment to provide real-terms figures, to which most members who have participated in today's debate have referred and which, for obvious reasons, will be

much more helpful.

The figures must be put in their context. It is predictable that there has been considerable criticism, particularly from the Scottish National party. It is instructive that its members often use England as the basis for comparisons, when it is the party's policy to break all ties with England. In fairness to Andrew Wilson, he was far more relevant when he cited the Republic of Ireland. If the SNP wants to break away and have an independent Scotland, why use England as the basis for comparisons? Why then turn round and ask Labour or Liberal Democrat members why spending levels are so much higher in Scotland and whether we want to maintain them at that level, as Andrew Wilson has just done?

The reasons why levels of spending, particularly on things such as housing and health, are so much higher are well known. The priority is to tackle the root causes of those problems. The funding that has been made available in the budget will enable that to be done.

Des McNulty was absolutely right: the important thing is to prioritise resources within the various budget heads and to consider how resources are allocated and used. I am sure that almost any Labour or Liberal Democrat member could speak to the Minister for Finance one to one to argue for greater resources for a particular measure or for their local area.

The budget must be considered overall. There is no point in picking out one item and asking specifically what will be done on education or housing. Issues are being tackled in a wide array of ways and through different funding initiatives in addition to the budget heads that we are discussing today. It is important to put the debate in that context.

It is a bit wearing to keep hearing the same arguments. Mr MacAskill was at it again today. He keeps coming back to questions of funding for transport and comparing what Mr Prescott is doing in England with what we are doing here. The point is that we are trying to do things differently in Scotland. I find it strange and perplexing that Mr MacAskill wants to use England as a reference point.

It is far more instructive to examine the figures that are before us and decide what can be done with the resources that we have in Scotland. We all argue for a maximisation of those resources in our areas, but it is important to understand that the way in which the budget is evolving, particularly with the end-year flexibility produced by the comprehensive spending review, will have an impact in a number of departments. That fact has been widely recognised. welcome the budget overall, but greater consideration must be given to the allocation of budget heads, and there must be recognition of what that will mean in different parts of the country. Rural affairs will have an increasing claim on resources, but recent figures on health, housing and other aspects of life in Glasgow mean that those must be priorities. Those of us who represent the city will continue to argue for increased resources.

Nevertheless, overall, it is disingenuous to talk about cuts when the real-terms figures are higher than have ever been produced, particularly in health, where around £700 million more will be spent in this three-year period than in the previous three-year period.

I welcome the fact that we are at the start of a process, which in future years will be even more fruitful, because the whole Parliament, the subject committees and many more members of the Parliament will have contributed to the plans in the early stages, before they come to the chamber at stage 3.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C714018", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan (Glasgow) (SSP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 345.0, "ContributionID": 714018, "EditedText": "Earlier, the Minister for Finance avoided the question that I asked. I invite him to answer it in his summing-up. The question was on using the comprehensive spending review as the baseline for gauging the spending level of the Government. The problem is that we have not a three-year, but a five-year Government. The fact remains, despite what Mike Watson and others have said, that the Government is spending less on public services than even the previous Tory Administrations. The Trades Union Congress report of only four weeks ago—I also ask that this be referred to the minister's summing-up—states that, in real terms, we are spending 45 per cent less on public services than in 1994-95. A report carried out by Tony Travers of the London School of Economics, of which the minister will be aware, shows that the proportion of public expenditure on services is lower than that of any Government in the past 40 years. That is the background to the discussion on this budget. It is not enough for those in the new Labour party to argue that the settlement is a good one. It is not a good settlement. It is fair enough arguing for a better, most efficient division of the settlement, but socialists should be arguing for an improvement in the size of the cake, not just for dividing it up better, which means that someone's improvement is someone else's cut. We in Glasgow City Council will be fighting for a greater share of the resources, but the problem is that, unless the overall resources are improved, Glasgow's improvement will be the loss of other parts of Scotland. That cannot be acceptable to any members of this Parliament.I hope that the minister will accept that, although it is factually correct that there is an overall increase in spending over the three years of the CSR, when it is compared to the five years of the Parliament, even the levels of the previous Tory Administration are not reached, because of the acute cuts in the first two years. With regard to Andrew Wilson's earlier points, I support the SNP amendment if for no other reason than that the SNP refers to the need to discuss independence in relation to this settlement. I differ, however, on the SNP comparisons with the Republic of Ireland. It does have fiscal autonomy because it is an independent republic—and I wish Scotland to become an independent republic—but the Eurostat report of only two months ago says that, of the 15 nations of the European Union, Britain is bottom of the table for the proportion of the population living in poverty. Second bottom in that table is Ireland. Although it is an independent republic, it is one that is deeply divided in terms of the distribution of its wealth. We have to confront that problem here. Early in the new year, we will bring to the Parliament the idea of a new, alternative tax, and I hope that the Minister for Finance will support it. He used to support progressive taxation and the redistribution of wealth. We will advance the abolition of the council tax and its replacement by a Scottish service tax. That tax will be redistributive, and will mean that MSPs will pay more. I hope that the Executive will support it because it will exempt pensioners and students while imposing a heavier rate on those with wealth. I hope that Kenny Gibson and others will agree with me that we do not improve our share of oil revenues by cutting corporation tax. We do so by doing what Norway and most countries of the middle east do: we publicly own our oil industry so that we can use the £11.2 billion of profit that was made last year—£11.2 billion of profit was made in the worst year for two decades. We could do with a share of that for Scotland's public services.", "EditedTextHTML": "Earlier, the Minister for Finance avoided the question that I asked. I invite him to answer it in his summing-up. The question was on using the comprehensive spending review as the baseline for gauging the spending level of the Government. The problem is that we have not a three-year, but a five-year Government. The fact remains, despite what Mike Watson and others have said, that the Government is spending less on public services than even the previous Tory Administrations.

The Trades Union Congress report of only four weeks ago—I also ask that this be referred to the minister's summing-up—states that, in real terms, we are spending 45 per cent less on public services than in 1994-95. A report carried out by Tony Travers of the London School of Economics, of which the minister will be aware, shows that the proportion of public expenditure on services is lower than that of any Government in the past 40 years. That is the background to the discussion on this budget. It is not enough for those in the new Labour party to argue that the settlement is a good one. It is not a good settlement.

It is fair enough arguing for a better, most efficient division of the settlement, but socialists should be arguing for an improvement in the size of the cake, not just for dividing it up better, which means that someone's improvement is someone else's cut. We in Glasgow City Council will be fighting for a greater share of the resources, but the problem is that, unless the overall resources are improved, Glasgow's improvement will be the loss of other parts of Scotland. That cannot be

acceptable to any members of this Parliament.

I hope that the minister will accept that, although it is factually correct that there is an overall increase in spending over the three years of the CSR, when it is compared to the five years of the Parliament, even the levels of the previous Tory Administration are not reached, because of the acute cuts in the first two years.

With regard to Andrew Wilson's earlier points, I support the SNP amendment if for no other reason than that the SNP refers to the need to discuss independence in relation to this settlement. I differ, however, on the SNP comparisons with the Republic of Ireland. It does have fiscal autonomy because it is an independent republic—and I wish Scotland to become an independent republic—but the Eurostat report of only two months ago says that, of the 15 nations of the European Union, Britain is bottom of the table for the proportion of the population living in poverty. Second bottom in that table is Ireland. Although it is an independent republic, it is one that is deeply divided in terms of the distribution of its wealth. We have to confront that problem here.

Early in the new year, we will bring to the Parliament the idea of a new, alternative tax, and I hope that the Minister for Finance will support it. He used to support progressive taxation and the redistribution of wealth. We will advance the abolition of the council tax and its replacement by a Scottish service tax. That tax will be redistributive, and will mean that MSPs will pay more. I hope that the Executive will support it because it will exempt pensioners and students while imposing a heavier rate on those with wealth.

I hope that Kenny Gibson and others will agree with me that we do not improve our share of oil revenues by cutting corporation tax. We do so by doing what Norway and most countries of the middle east do: we publicly own our oil industry so that we can use the £11.2 billion of profit that was made last year—£11.2 billion of profit was made in the worst year for two decades. We could do with a share of that for Scotland's public services.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C714019", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 347.0, "ContributionID": 714019, "EditedText": "I regret that four members have not been called. I should point out that members who persistently overrun their speaking times may find themselves dropping back in the speaking order for future debates.", "EditedTextHTML": "I regret that four members have not been called. I should point out that members who persistently overrun their speaking times may find themselves dropping back in the speaking order for future debates.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C714027", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Simpson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 366.0, "ContributionID": 714027, "EditedText": "Will Mr Swinney agree with me that the real increase over the four-year period is 12 per cent, and that the big increase—from £4.6 billion to £4.9 billion—came in the current year? Will he also agree that the increase in the first three years of the Labour Administration, nationally and in Scotland, was £700 million, which is a substantial increase that fulfils, at least in part, our commitment?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr Swinney agree with me that the real increase over the four-year period is 12 per cent, and that the big increase—from £4.6 billion to £4.9 billion—came in the current year? Will he also agree that the increase in the first three years of the Labour Administration, nationally and in Scotland, was £700 million, which is a substantial increase that fulfils, at least in part, our commitment?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C714023", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Annabel Goldie (West of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 357.0, "ContributionID": 714023, "EditedText": "We welcome the Minister for Finance's statement. I was interested to hear that the consultation had elicited a low response. That may be because we are dealing with level 2, so many people felt unable to comment. I also listened with particular interest to his words: openness, accountability and probity. I agree that, as has been said, we need a greater disaggregation to make sense of the spending proposals. Even at level 2, however, there is cause for concern. We are dealing with a presentation that is on a cash basis. Although Mike Watson applauded that, I find it a simplistic approach. The cash basis shows cuts in some areas, but they are even worse if an adjusting inflation factor is introduced. Will the people in Scotland relish cuts in real terms, since Labour came into power, in housing support grant, to funds to the Crown Office and fiscal services, to enterprise and lifelong learning and to the police? The reality has been expressed frequently during this debate: Labour is spending £1.1 billion less than the Conservatives. If that is not bad enough, Labour has failed to anticipate demands on health, education and services in local authority areas. The Executive cannot sit back in complacency, look at the sums that have been divvied up and say, \"We've done a good job.\" It is the Executive's business to anticipate the needs of our communities in Scotland and to make a serious attempt to address those needs. I have no doubt that it will be of great comfort to patients, parents, pupils, teachers and the police that this Executive is able to fund 22 ministers and legions of special advisers, spin doctors and ancillary staff, not to mention Mr Rafferty's payoffs. I suggest to Mr McConnell that charity begins at home, and some pruning of the Executive's ménage would be a start. Politically, the coalition budget is not about openness, accountability and probity, because this Labour Government has taxed more than even the previous Labour Administration, and, in relative terms, it is spending less than any other UK Administration in four decades.", "EditedTextHTML": "We welcome the Minister for Finance's statement. I was interested to hear that the consultation had elicited a low response. That may be because we are dealing with level 2, so many people felt unable to comment. I also listened with particular interest to his words: openness, accountability and probity. I agree that, as has been said, we need a greater disaggregation to make sense of the spending proposals. Even at level 2, however, there is cause for concern.

We are dealing with a presentation that is on a cash basis. Although Mike Watson applauded that, I find it a simplistic approach. The cash basis shows cuts in some areas, but they are even worse if an adjusting inflation factor is introduced. Will the people in Scotland relish cuts in real terms, since Labour came into power, in housing support grant, to funds to the Crown Office and fiscal services, to enterprise and lifelong learning and to the police?

The reality has been expressed frequently during this debate: Labour is spending £1.1 billion less than the Conservatives. If that is not bad enough, Labour has failed to anticipate demands on health, education and services in local authority areas. The Executive cannot sit back in complacency, look at the sums that have been divvied up and say, \"We've done a good job.\" It is the Executive's business to anticipate the needs of our communities in Scotland and to make a serious attempt to address those needs.

I have no doubt that it will be of great comfort to patients, parents, pupils, teachers and the police that this Executive is able to fund 22 ministers and legions of special advisers, spin doctors and ancillary staff, not to mention Mr Rafferty's payoffs. I suggest to Mr McConnell that charity begins at home, and some pruning of the Executive's ménage would be a start.

Politically, the coalition budget is not about openness, accountability and probity, because this Labour Government has taxed more than even the previous Labour Administration, and, in relative terms, it is spending less than any other UK Administration in four decades.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C714031", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 375.0, "ContributionID": 714031, "EditedText": "This has been an interesting and short debate, in which a number of good points have been made. It would be helpful if we could say that about all sides, but to some extent the nature of the debate was set by the SNP's amendment. Instead of taking this opportunity, for the first time in any parliamentary setting in the United Kingdom, to move amendments to the proposed budget of the Executive—to suggest changes, to reorganise priorities and to set out an alternative vision—the SNP has complained that it did not get quite enough information, even though it received more information than has ever before been made available. Next year, we will provide even more information. As Mr Swinney should know, Westminster MPs have to find out that information themselves, by looking up the annual reports in the House of Commons library before they take part in debates.", "EditedTextHTML": "This has been an interesting and short debate, in which a number of good points have been made. It would be helpful if we could say that about all sides, but to some extent the nature of the debate was set by the SNP's amendment. Instead of taking this opportunity, for the first time in any parliamentary setting in the United Kingdom, to move amendments to the proposed budget of the Executive—to suggest changes, to reorganise priorities and to set out an alternative vision—the SNP has complained that it did not get quite enough information, even though it received more information than has ever before been made available. Next year, we will provide even more information. As Mr Swinney should know, Westminster MPs have to find out that information themselves, by looking up the annual reports in the House of Commons library before they take part in debates.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1970E66P288C714032", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNulty, Des", "ID": 1970, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Clydebank and Milngavie" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Des McNulty", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Des McNulty: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 377.0, "ContributionID": 714032, "EditedText": "Has Mr McConnell ever heard from Mr Swinney, Mr Wilson or any other SNP member what their spending priorities are from among the issues that they have raised even in today's debate? We have had Mr MacAskill's comments on roads, Mr Swinney's comments on student fees and comments by other members on health. What prioritisation process does the SNP wish to engage in, because I have not heard it?", "EditedTextHTML": "Has Mr McConnell ever heard from Mr Swinney, Mr Wilson or any other SNP member what their spending priorities are from among the issues that they have raised even in today's debate? We have had Mr MacAskill's comments on roads, Mr Swinney's comments on student fees and comments by other members on health. What prioritisation process does the SNP wish to engage in, because I have not heard it?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C714037", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 387.0, "ContributionID": 714037, "EditedText": "No. I want to answer the point that Mr MacAskill makes so eloquently every time that he comes to the chamber. The Scottish National party has recently produced a compact disc and, obviously, we have moved on from the age of the long-playing record, but one LP certainly got stuck in the 1970s: the \"It is Scotland's oil\" speech, which is repeated over and over again, not just in transport debates but in debates such as this. Mr MacAskill clearly did not notice the publication this week of the latest edition of \"Government Expenditure and Revenue in Scotland\", which showed that Scotland received 10 per cent of total UK Government expenditure in 1997-98—never mind now—which is well above its population share of 8.7 per cent. At the same time, Scotland's share of total UK Government receipts was 8.6 per cent, which was just below our population share.", "EditedTextHTML": "No. I want to answer the point that Mr MacAskill makes so eloquently every time that he comes to the chamber. The Scottish National party has recently produced a compact disc and, obviously, we have moved on from the age of the long-playing record, but one LP certainly got stuck in the 1970s: the \"It is Scotland's oil\" speech, which is repeated over and over again, not just in transport debates but in debates such as this.

Mr MacAskill clearly did not notice the publication this week of the latest edition of \"Government Expenditure and Revenue in Scotland\", which showed that Scotland received 10 per cent of total UK Government expenditure in 1997-98—never mind now—which is well above its population share of 8.7 per cent. At the same time, Scotland's share of total UK Government receipts was 8.6 per cent, which was just below our population share.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C714038", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 389.0, "ContributionID": 714038, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C714041", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 395.0, "ContributionID": 714041, "EditedText": "No. Let us go back to Mr Wilson's figures. As he knows, the Scottish National party said that, even on its own figures, which are based on an over-optimistic claim on Scottish oil receipts of 75 per cent, there would be a deficit in Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "No. Let us go back to Mr Wilson's figures. As he knows, the Scottish National party said that, even on its own figures, which are based on an over-optimistic claim on Scottish oil receipts of 75 per cent, there would be a deficit in Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C714043", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 399.0, "ContributionID": 714043, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C714046", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 405.0, "ContributionID": 714046, "EditedText": "John Swinney has a cheek to talk about the Liberal Democrats saying slightly different things here and at Westminster, given the way in which the SNP tours around Scotland, making promises here, there and everywhere about the different budgets of this Parliament. These spending plans balance. They allocate additional money to expenditure that is already at the highest level that Scotland has ever known. They are good spending plans for Scotland, which deserve the support of the chamber.", "EditedTextHTML": "John Swinney has a cheek to talk about the Liberal Democrats saying slightly different things here and at Westminster, given the way in which the SNP tours around Scotland, making promises here, there and everywhere about the different budgets of this Parliament.

These spending plans balance. They allocate additional money to expenditure that is already at the highest level that Scotland has ever known. They are good spending plans for Scotland, which deserve the support of the chamber.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C714055", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Infectious Salmon Anaemia", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27229, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 407.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 407.0, "ID": 27229, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 425.0, "ContributionID": 714055, "EditedText": "Yes. Mr McGrigor must come to a conclusion.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes. Mr McGrigor must come to a conclusion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2066E64P88C714058", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Infectious Salmon Anaemia", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27229, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 407.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 407.0, "ID": 27229, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McGrigor, Jamie", "ID": 2066, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie McGrigor", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McGrigor: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 431.0, "ContributionID": 714058, "EditedText": "Does the minister agree that we should introduce a compensation system for affected fish farms, either through insurance- based schemes or on a co-financing basis, funded by the Commission and the UK Government?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the minister agree that we should introduce a compensation system for affected fish farms, either through insurance- based schemes or on a co-financing basis, funded by the Commission and the UK Government?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1878E208P502C714064", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Infectious Salmon Anaemia", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27229, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 407.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 407.0, "ID": 27229, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Dr Winnie", "ID": 1878, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Winnie Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Winnie Ewing (Highlands and Islands) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 443.0, "ContributionID": 714064, "EditedText": "I would like to thank the minister—he has said a lot of good things today, which bring great relief. With hindsight, would not he agree that we were slow to examine the evidence from Norway? Before I left the European Parliament, the Norwegians proved with graphs that their policy of containment rather than slaughter was working. Although it is good that the minister has told us that there will be some compensation, I do not see why that should be regarded as special in view of the fact that the EU legislation umbrella provides for compensation. We need to know from Mr Home Robertson how the £3 million a year will be distributed. Will it reach the small men with small farms, many of whom have invested heavily in, for example, well boats?", "EditedTextHTML": "I would like to thank the minister—he has said a lot of good things today, which bring great relief. With hindsight, would not he agree that we were slow to examine the evidence from Norway? Before I left the European Parliament, the Norwegians proved with graphs that their policy of containment rather than slaughter was working. Although it is good that the minister has told us that there will be some compensation, I do not see why that should be regarded as special in view of the fact that the EU legislation umbrella provides for compensation. We need to know from Mr Home Robertson how the £3 million a year will be distributed. Will it reach the small men with small farms, many of whom have invested heavily in, for example, well boats?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1840E82P158C714066", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Infectious Salmon Anaemia", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27229, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 407.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 407.0, "ID": 27229, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macmillan, Maureen", "ID": 1840, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Maureen Macmillan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Maureen Macmillan (Highlands and Islands) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 447.0, "ContributionID": 714066, "EditedText": "I welcome the minister's announcement, but will he endeavour to secure the implementation of measures for the control of viral haemorrhagic septicaemia in farmed white fish? Those measures should, at least, be on a par with the measures announced today for ISA. Will he also endeavour to ensure that VHS in the marine environment is not classified as an exotic disease?", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the minister's announcement, but will he endeavour to secure the implementation of measures for the control of viral haemorrhagic septicaemia in farmed white fish? Those measures should, at least, be on a par with the measures announced today for ISA. Will he also endeavour to ensure that VHS in the marine environment is not classified as an exotic disease?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2100E64P254C714067", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Infectious Salmon Anaemia", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27229, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 407.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 407.0, "ID": 27229, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Home Robertson, John", "ID": 2100, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Lothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "John Home Robertson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Home Robertson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 449.0, "ContributionID": 714067, "EditedText": "That is a separate issue, although I recognise that what Maureen Macmillan says is important. I will consider the specific proposals that she has suggested because I understand that the problems are of great concern to fish farmers.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is a separate issue, although I recognise that what Maureen Macmillan says is important. I will consider the specific proposals that she has suggested because I understand that the problems are of great concern to fish farmers.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1893E47P78C714068", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Infectious Salmon Anaemia", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27229, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 407.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 407.0, "ID": 27229, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnstone, Alex", "ID": 1893, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Johnstone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Johnstone (North-East Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 451.0, "ContributionID": 714068, "EditedText": "I am sure that the industry will be grateful for the measures that have been announced today, but I would like to go back to a point that was raised by Mike Rumbles. What plans does the minister have to extend consultation with the industry, in light of the flexibility to which he has referred today?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sure that the industry will be grateful for the measures that have been announced today, but I would like to go back to a point that was raised by Mike Rumbles. What plans does the minister have to extend consultation with the industry, in light of the flexibility to which he has referred today?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2100E64P254C714071", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Infectious Salmon Anaemia", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27229, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 407.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 407.0, "ID": 27229, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Home Robertson, John", "ID": 2100, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Lothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "John Home Robertson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Home Robertson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 457.0, "ContributionID": 714071, "EditedText": "The details of the proposals that I am announcing will be available in the information centre. At present, there is a fallow zone, which affects sites that are known to be infected. That is surrounded by a high-risk area, which is in turn surrounded by a surveillance area that extends by a 40 km radius from the infected site. At the moment, control zones of one kind or another cover two thirds of Scotland's salmon farms. I am proposing that an infected area—an area within a tidal excursion area, or between 3 km and 7 km around an infected site—would still be designated and would be subject to exactly the same controls as is the case now. Beyond that, there will be a surveillance area, which will cover two tidal excursions—between 6 km and 14 km around the infected site—and will be subject to movement controls, fallowing requirements and the rest of the controls. The details are available in the information centre. We are now able to do away with the much wider 40 km area. We have taken that decision in the light of science from the Marine Laboratory.", "EditedTextHTML": "The details of the proposals that I am announcing will be available in the information centre. At present, there is a fallow zone, which affects sites that are known to be infected. That is surrounded by a high-risk area, which is in turn surrounded by a surveillance area that extends by a 40 km radius from the infected site. At the moment, control zones of one kind or another cover two thirds of Scotland's salmon farms. I am proposing that an infected area—an area within a tidal excursion area, or between 3 km and 7 km around an infected site—would still be designated and would be subject to exactly the same controls as is the case now.

Beyond that, there will be a surveillance area, which will cover two tidal excursions—between 6 km and 14 km around the infected site—and will be subject to movement controls, fallowing requirements and the rest of the controls. The details are available in the information centre. We are now able to do away with the much wider 40 km area. We have taken that decision in the light of science from the Marine Laboratory.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6232055+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1990E181P340C714072", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Infectious Salmon Anaemia", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27229, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 407.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 407.0, "ID": 27229, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robson, Euan", "ID": 1990, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Roxburgh and Berwickshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Euan Robson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Euan Robson (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 459.0, "ContributionID": 714072, "EditedText": "The minister mentioned the Tweed. Will he confirm my understanding that ISA—in fact, only traces of the virus—was discovered in only one of a batch of fry in one tributary of the Tweed? Will he also confirm that the alarm that has been raised about this should be taken in context? Is he aware of any research that shows that ISA has been prevalent within the environment of Scottish rivers before this latest understanding? Will he consider issuing an information leaflet, like the very good leaflet on gyrodactylus salaris, which was extremely helpful to proprietors, anglers and all other users?", "EditedTextHTML": "The minister mentioned the Tweed. Will he confirm my understanding that ISA—in fact, only traces of the virus—was discovered in only one of a batch of fry in one tributary of the Tweed? Will he also confirm that the alarm that has been raised about this should be taken in context? Is he aware of any research that shows that ISA has been prevalent within the environment of Scottish rivers before this latest understanding? Will he consider issuing an information leaflet, like the very good leaflet on gyrodactylus salaris, which was extremely helpful to proprietors, anglers and all other users?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6388347+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2100E64P254C714073", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Infectious Salmon Anaemia", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27229, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 407.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 407.0, "ID": 27229, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Home Robertson, John", "ID": 2100, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Lothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "John Home Robertson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Home Robertson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 461.0, "ContributionID": 714073, "EditedText": "I know that the member for Roxburgh and Berwickshire is a keen angler and so naturally has an interest in these matters. As he rightly says, one salmon parr in one tributary of the Tweed gave a positive reading on one of the three tests. Either the immunofluorescent antibody test or the polymerase chain reaction test—I am not sure which—indicated the possible presence of the virus in that fish. It is not confirmed whether that fish had ISA, but it had one of the key indicators of ISA. When we get information such as that, we publish it. That is in everybody's interest. The positive reading may indicate that the virus is present in the wild. That is a matter on which we are doing more work, in Scotland and in England and Wales, to improve the science. Euan Robson is right to say that nobody is suggesting that the disease is out in the wild and that nobody has ever heard of a wild fish with the clinical manifestation of the disease. However, a fish may not survive for long if it had the disease, so that may not tell us as much as we would like it to. I can confirm that there is no evidence of the disease existing in the wild.", "EditedTextHTML": "I know that the member for Roxburgh and Berwickshire is a keen angler and so naturally has an interest in these matters. As he rightly says, one salmon parr in one tributary of the Tweed gave a positive reading on one of the three tests. Either the immunofluorescent antibody test or the polymerase chain reaction test—I am not sure which—indicated the possible presence of the virus in that fish. It is not confirmed whether that fish had ISA, but it had one of the key indicators of ISA. When we get information such as that, we publish it. That is in everybody's interest. The positive reading may indicate that the virus is present in the wild. That is a matter on which we are doing more work, in Scotland and in England and Wales, to improve the science.

Euan Robson is right to say that nobody is suggesting that the disease is out in the wild and that nobody has ever heard of a wild fish with the clinical manifestation of the disease. However, a fish may not survive for long if it had the disease, so that may not tell us as much as we would like it to. I can confirm that there is no evidence of the disease existing in the wild.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6388347+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1985E207P501C714074", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Infectious Salmon Anaemia", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27229, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 407.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 407.0, "ID": 27229, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hamilton, Mr Duncan", "ID": 1985, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Duncan Hamilton (Highlands and Islands) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 463.0, "ContributionID": 714074, "EditedText": "I, too, welcome the minister's statement. May I press him further on what he means by flexibility, particularly in relation to suspect sites? I see from his statement that there is a clear understanding of what it means for sites that are confirmed and for those that are non-infected. However, there is no suggestion of what restrictions will be lifted. Will he recognise that one of the key concerns of the industry is that it continues to operate under unnecessary restrictions and that it is not on a level playing field with the industry in Europe?", "EditedTextHTML": "I, too, welcome the minister's statement. May I press him further on what he means by flexibility, particularly in relation to suspect sites? I see from his statement that there is a clear understanding of what it means for sites that are confirmed and for those that are non-infected. However, there is no suggestion of what restrictions will be lifted. Will he recognise that one of the key concerns of the industry is that it continues to operate under unnecessary restrictions and that it is not on a level playing field with the industry in Europe?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6388347+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2100E64P254C714077", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Infectious Salmon Anaemia", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27229, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 407.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 407.0, "ID": 27229, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Home Robertson, John", "ID": 2100, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Lothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "John Home Robertson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Home Robertson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 469.0, "ContributionID": 714077, "EditedText": "I have met the chief executive of Highlands and Islands Enterprise to discuss the matter. There is a technical problem with getting clearance from the European Union on state aid but I am advised that that should happen early in the new year. Highlands and Islands Enterprise is already processing applications. The money is in place and we want to get it out to the people who need it as soon as possible.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have met the chief executive of Highlands and Islands Enterprise to discuss the matter. There is a technical problem with getting clearance from the European Union on state aid but I am advised that that should happen early in the new year. Highlands and Islands Enterprise is already processing applications. The money is in place and we want to get it out to the people who need it as soon as possible.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6388347+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1892E34P73C714078", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Infectious Salmon Anaemia", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27229, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 407.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 407.0, "ID": 27229, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Fergusson, Alex", "ID": 1892, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Fergusson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Fergusson (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 471.0, "ContributionID": 714078, "EditedText": "I make no apology for quoting from a press release that was put out by a colleague of mine in the European Parliament. I happen to agree with it completely. He says: \"It is a matter of great concern to the aquaculture industry that the tabloid press continue to mis-represent ISA by using emotive terms like ‘fish aids' or even equating the disease to BSE in cattle.\" Will the minister put out a statement to reassure the public that ISA is of no danger to human health?", "EditedTextHTML": "I make no apology for quoting from a press release that was put out by a colleague of mine in the European Parliament. I happen to agree with it completely. He says:

\"It is a matter of great concern to the aquaculture industry that the tabloid press continue to mis-represent ISA by using emotive terms like ‘fish aids' or even equating the disease to BSE in cattle.\"

Will the minister put out a statement to reassure the public that ISA is of no danger to human health?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6388347+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2100E64P254C714079", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Infectious Salmon Anaemia", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27229, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 407.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 407.0, "ID": 27229, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Home Robertson, John", "ID": 2100, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Lothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "John Home Robertson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Home Robertson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 473.0, "ContributionID": 714079, "EditedText": "I am keen to be helpful, but it is not always helpful for politicians to try to reassure consumers, even politicians such as Struan Stevenson, who, I presume, issued that press release. I have been advised that the ISA virus is killed at temperatures higher than 26 deg C. Assuming that we are all alive in this chamber, our blood temperature is 37 deg C. It would follow from that that it is highly unlikely that the ISA virus will do us much damage. That is as far as I want to go on the matter. Politicians' track record of talking down food scares is not very good. However, the idea that the ISA virus affects people seems a bit farfetched.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am keen to be helpful, but it is not always helpful for politicians to try to reassure consumers, even politicians such as Struan Stevenson, who, I presume, issued that press release.

I have been advised that the ISA virus is killed at temperatures higher than 26 deg C. Assuming that we are all alive in this chamber, our blood temperature is 37 deg C. It would follow from that that it is highly unlikely that the ISA virus will do us much damage.

That is as far as I want to go on the matter. Politicians' track record of talking down food scares is not very good. However, the idea that the ISA virus affects people seems a bit farfetched.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6388347+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C714090", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27231, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 487.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 487.0, "ID": 27231, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 496.0, "ContributionID": 714090, "EditedText": "That was also discussed at the bureau meeting yesterday. The problem is that none of us has seen the Cubie report; we do not know what is in it or what the Executive reaction to it will be. For that reason it is impossible to give advance notice of a debate or statement, but common sense dictates that we will have to discuss the matter soon after we return. The bureau will consider it again at its first meeting. We will now proceed to motion S1M-214, in the name of Jim Wallace, seeking the Parliament's agreement to the general principles of the Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill.", "EditedTextHTML": "That was also discussed at the bureau meeting yesterday. The problem is that none of us has seen the Cubie report; we do not know what is in it or what the Executive reaction to it will be. For that reason it is impossible to give advance notice of a debate or statement, but common sense dictates that we will have to discuss the matter soon after we return. The bureau will consider it again at its first meeting.

We will now proceed to motion S1M-214, in the name of Jim Wallace, seeking the Parliament's agreement to the general principles of the Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6388347+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C714091", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27231, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 487.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 487.0, "ID": 27231, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice (Mr Jim Wallace): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 499.0, "ContributionID": 714091, "EditedText": "It is a genuine privilege to speak to the motion to approve the general principles of the Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill. This is a truly historic piece of legislation that will bring to an end 800 years of feudalism in Scotland. It will benefit the vast majority of people who think of themselves as owner-occupiers in Scotland but whose homes are in reality held subject to the rights of one or more feudal superiors. This is the kind of detailed law reform that would have been delayed for years waiting for a legislative slot at Westminster, but is ideally suited for consideration by this Parliament. I am therefore delighted that it is one of the first major pieces of legislation to be discussed by MSPs. I would like to express the Executive's thanks to the various committees of Parliament that have played a part in the progress of the bill to date. The Finance Committee carefully scrutinised the bill, fulfilling its important duty. The Subordinate Legislation Committee played its role in examining the provisions for subordinate legislation. It is a tribute to that committee's care in that task that the Executive has accepted two of the points it made; we will introduce amendments to that effect during stage 2. We all know of the very heavy load that the Justice and Home Affairs Committee has been labouring under. Only last week we considered another bill on which it has produced a report. Despite that, the committee has produced a most thorough and thoughtful stage 1 report on this bill. I congratulate the convener and the members of the committee on their excellent work. Subject to the approval of members, I look forward to working with them when we move on to detailed consideration of the bill at stage 2. The Justice and Home Affairs Committee asked me for clarification on a specific point. In our policy memorandum, we said that the bill would have no effect on sustainable development. I understand that the committee received representations to the effect that a bill that affects land ownership must inevitably have some effect on sustainable development. The committee suggested that the Executive might be using a definition of sustainable development that is different from that used by those from whom it heard evidence. There are a number of definitions of sustainable development. Perhaps the best way I can put it is that sustainable development is about economic growth, social development and environmental protection. I can certainly see that the ownership of land might have some impact on all of those matters, but the reform of the feudal system will not change who owns the land, nor can it be expected to alter the pattern of land ownership. It is a technical and legal matter that affects the way in which people own their property. I should like to take this opportunity to paytribute to the work of the Scottish Law Commission and to its document, \"Report on Abolition of the Feudal System\", which forms the basis of this bill. The commission deserves our thanks for its care and diligence in formulating its proposals. As the committees that have studied the feudal system will readily appreciate—and will, no doubt, appreciate more as we go through stage 2 of the bill—this is a complex subject. The commission had to take the views of a wide range of often conflicting interests as well as assess the state of statutory and common law running back to medieval times. The commission's main recommendation was that the feudal system should be abolished and replaced by a system of simple ownership of land. The bill would implement that simple recommendation, which I personally commend to members, as such a system already exists in relation to certain allodial land in Scotland. Udal land in Orkney and Shetland is held outright, with no feudal superiors. It gives me particular pleasure to introduce a bill that extends to the rest of Scotland the freedoms that my constituents have enjoyed for centuries. The bill is divided into seven parts. Part 1 contains the major provisions abolishing the feudal system. Section 1 has a huge resonance: \"The feudal system of land tenure, that is to say the entire system whereby land is held by a vassal on perpetual tenure from a superior is, on the appointed day, abolished.\" Scotland has waited an awful long time to hear that sentence. Feudal tenure is, of course, the technical and legal way in which many of us own our property. The documents that prove that we own our houses are often feudal deeds. They have to be registered so that there is a public record of who owns what and of exactly what they own and what the limits of their ownership are. Part 2 relates to the transfer of ownership and registration of deeds, and is not intended to change the substance of the law. It makes provision to continue the law in a post-feudal context. Perhaps the best known aspect of the feudal system is the feuduty. Most members probably recall the annual payment of small and rather peculiar sums of money each year to our feudal superiors. The majority of them have disappeared because, from 1974, the feuduty has been redeemed on the sale of most property. However, some properties have not changed hands during the past 25 years and the owner has not voluntarily redeemed the feuduty. Part 3 would abolish all remaining feuduties. It also provides that if the superior claims compensation for their extinction, it will be paid by the vassal on the same basis as the redemption of feuduty under the Land Tenure Reform (Scotland) Act 1974. The Scottish Law Commission estimates that only 10 per cent of feuduties are left and we suspect that most of those will be apportionments of larger feuduties that have been informally imposed on tenement flats and did not have to be redeemed on sale. The feuduties involved will be small: perhaps £2 to £5 per flat. When the compensation exceeds £100, the bill provides for payment by instalments. The Justice and Home Affairs Committee referred in its report to possible amendments to the compensation provisions, which we will be happy to consider during the stage 2 debates. Part 4 deals with real burdens, which is one of the most perplexing features of the feudal system. While real burdens can be oppressive, they can also be beneficial and helpful. I will return later to the issue of real burdens, because it is an important and, I accept, somewhat complicated matter. The next two parts of the bill deal with a variety of subjects. Part 5 covers the subject of entails, which are to be abolished. Part 6 is a miscellaneous part, which deals with a number of matters, including various archaic methods of holding land and the extinction of other payments that are akin to feuduty. I may confess to a certain sadness in abolishing the charming concept of the kindly tenancies of Lochmaben but, along with other anachronisms, they will have to go. We are also taking the opportunity in this part of the bill of abolishing any remaining feudal privileges attaching to a baronial title. I draw the Parliament's attention to section 51 which, by abolishing rights of irritancy, removes the right of superiors, in certain circumstances, to evict vassals who are in breach of feudal conditions. Part 7 deals with technical matters such as the appointed day on which the feudal system will finally be abolished. I will return later to the matter of the appointed day, which has given rise to some interest in the Justice and Home Affairs Committee. As well as prescribing several forms that are to be used in the various processes of registration, the schedules repeal many obsolete acts or parts of acts. The bill plays an important role in modernising and cleansing property law. It might be helpful to give a short explanation of the way in which the feudal system has operated in Scotland and the way in which it operates at present, as there are widespread misconceptions concerning what it means. The feudal system is nothing to do with leasing, and the feudal superior should not be confused with a landlord. A person who owns land under a feudal disposition owns it in law. However, he or she does so as the vassal of a feudal superior who retains an interest in the land in the form of a right to feuduty and a right to enforce conditions on its use. With the phasing out of feuduties, the main use of the feudal system is to allow the imposition and enforcement of conditions on property, which are otherwise known as feudal real burdens. A vassal who wants to breach a burden will normally have to obtain the superior's consent. Often, the superior will grant consent only in exchange for payment. A typical modern example of that might be when the vassal wants to build a greenhouse or a garage. Real burdens can give superiors the opportunity to charge fees for waivers. The superior can say, \"Yes, you can build your garage, but only if you pay me a fee.\" Some speculators have acquired superiority interests with the specific intention of deriving an income from waivers. That practice has been strongly criticised. However, there are two sides to real burdens. Real burdens are often used to ensure that property is kept in good repair, to prevent nuisance and to safeguard the rights of neighbours. The Scottish Law Commission has therefore given careful thought to which burdens should be abolished and which should be retained. It has also thought carefully about the arrangements that will need to be made to retain burdens, which is a matter to which I shall return. The commission has recommended that it should be possible to retain four types of burden. I do not want to say much in detail about those, as they are set out in detail in our policy memorandum. Broadly, the four types are as follows. First, maritime burdens are burdens that relate to important facilities such as piers and harbours. They will be saved by the bill. Secondly, common facility burdens are burdens that, as the name suggests, relate to a common facility on one property which benefits another property or set of properties. They might be concerned with a private access road or the common passages in a block of flats. Such burdens will also be saved, but the superior will lose the right to enforce them; they will pass to the properties that benefit from the burden. Thirdly, conservation burdens exist where a burden preserves for the benefit of the public the architectural, historical or other special characteristics of land or buildings. An example would be an historic building that is restored by a conservation trust and feu'd subject to burdens that are designed to preserve the restoration work. Finally, there is the neighbour burden. Under section 17, superiors may retain the right to enforce certain burdens on neighbouring land. The most common example of that will occur when the superior owns neighbouring land that contains a building of human habitation or resort within 100 m of the land that is affected by the burden. The bill would, for example, allow the superior to continue to preserve a view from his home. The commission recognised that the 100 m rule was arbitrary but considered that the line had to be drawn somewhere. In reaching policy decisions on the bill, we were concerned that the provisions for saving neighbour burdens did not go far enough. For example, the superior may own land but not yet have built on it. He or she may be planning to build a retirement home and might want to preserve the open aspect of the site. The Executive has therefore decided to give the superior an opportunity to reach agreement with the vassal on which burdens can be saved. As a last resort, the superior can take the matter to the Lands Tribunal for Scotland. The superior will, however, have to satisfy the tribunal that his property would suffer substantial loss or disadvantage if the burden was lost. There is a fifth category that I want to mention. Although the bill does not propose that they be saved, it provides a compensation package for the loss of development value real burdens—burdens that have been deliberately used to reserve development value for the superior where land has been sold at a discount. When the bill was referred to the Justice and Home Affairs Committee, I made it clear that there would be scope for reviewing whether those would be the only categories of burden that should be retained. We have received some representations from commercial interests that the bill may not do enough to protect the interests of commercial developers. It is clearly important that we get that aspect of our proposals right; we all want to ensure that nothing is done to discourage commercial investors from investing in Scotland. The commission has received representations from commercial interests in connection with its current review of real burdens. It is right that I should emphasise at this stage that we will continue to monitor carefully whether what the bill proposes in this matter covers adequately all the burdens that need to be saved. Another issue that will be familiar to members and the Justice and Home Affairs Committee—it has been raised by those interested in commercial transactions—is the proposed limit of 125 years on long leases. I want to assure the Parliament that we do not have a closed mind on that figure or, generally, on the detailed numbers and quantities that are prescribed in the bill. We fully expect those figures and any suggested alternatives to be properly and fully debated in committee at stage 2. I turn now to the associated subject of the future of real burdens after the feudal system is abolished and to the package of property reforms that we will present to the Parliament over the next few years. It is important to take some time over that, because the Justice and Home Affairs Committee sought clarification on, and referred to, it in its stage 1 report. When I announced in June that we would introduce this bill, I explained that it would be very closely related to the report on real burdens that the Law Commission is preparing. I said that part of the feudal bill would be commenced at the same time as the bill on real burdens. The Justice and Home Affairs Committee has—with some justification—said that it had some difficulty dealing with one part of the package when it could not see the rest. However, there are good reasons for dealing with the matter in this way. Not all burdens in Scotland are imposed through feudal deeds; many are set out in ordinary, non- feudal deeds of conditions and dispositions. Those burdens will not be affected by the Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill. During its consideration of feudal real burdens, the Scottish Law Commission readily recognised that the general law of real burdens and conditions on property also required modernisation and simplification. It carried out work on the subject and issued a discussion paper in October 1998. The Executive is committed to introducing a second bill to implement the recommendations in that report. The subject has two corresponding halves. The Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill will abolish many feudal burdens but allow some to be saved and converted into ordinary real burdens. The title conditions bill—as it is to be known—will then introduce a new and modern system for all burdens or conditions on land. Taken together, the two bills will effect a radical reform of this area of Scots law. Obviously, it would have been easier for us all if we could have seen both bills together, but there are reasons why we did not want to hold up the Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill. I said that I would say more about the date of abolition of the feudal system. As I have explained, superiors will be given the opportunity to register notices if they wish to preserve certain burdens. They will also be given the opportunity to register notices if they wish to claim compensation for feuduty and the loss of development value burdens. If they wish to claim compensation for feuduty, they will have to prepare notices to be served. That will, inevitably, take time. Superiors will have to identify the cases in which they want to preserve burdens or claim compensation. They will then have to go through the mechanics of registration. The length of the transitional period is a matter of some concern. The commission recommended no less than two years. We took the view that if we were to wait for the publication of the title conditions bill, we would postpone the date on which the transitional period could start and, therefore, the date on which the feudal system would finally be abolished. That is why we have proceeded now with the Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill. Considering one bill in advance of a sight of the other might not be ideal, but it is possible that the title conditions bill will have to amend the Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill. There may need to be further consideration of how the two bills are linked, and the commencement dates may need to be re-examined. I assure Parliament that we will not commence any aspect of the Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill until we are certain that the time is right to do so. As we proceed through stage 2, we will keep the committee in touch with Law Commission developments. The Executive is aware that the bill requires some further amendment during its passage, but much of that will be largely technical—I do not think members will wish to be troubled with that at this stage. For the purposes of rule 9.11 of standing orders, I advise the Parliament that Her Majesty and His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales as Prince and Steward of Scotland, have been informed of the purport of the Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill, and have consented to place their prerogatives and interests, so far as they are affected by the bill, at the disposal of the Parliament for the purposes of the bill. I know that these matters have sounded very technical. They are technical, but at the heart of them is a very simple proposition: after centuries, we are moving towards the abolition of the feudal system. Today's debate marks an important milestone on that journey. I move,That the Parliament agrees to the general principles of the Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc. (Scotland) Bill.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is a genuine privilege to speak to the motion to approve the general principles of the Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill. This is a truly historic piece of legislation that will bring to an end 800 years of feudalism in Scotland. It will benefit the vast majority of people who think of themselves as owner-occupiers in Scotland but whose homes are in reality held subject to the rights of one or more feudal superiors.

This is the kind of detailed law reform that would have been delayed for years waiting for a legislative slot at Westminster, but is ideally suited for consideration by this Parliament. I am therefore delighted that it is one of the first major pieces of legislation to be discussed by MSPs.

I would like to express the Executive's thanks to the various committees of Parliament that have played a part in the progress of the bill to date. The Finance Committee carefully scrutinised the bill, fulfilling its important duty. The Subordinate Legislation Committee played its role in examining the provisions for subordinate legislation. It is a tribute to that committee's care in that task that the Executive has accepted two of the points it made; we will introduce amendments to that effect during stage 2.

We all know of the very heavy load that the Justice and Home Affairs Committee has been labouring under. Only last week we considered another bill on which it has produced a report. Despite that, the committee has produced a most thorough and thoughtful stage 1 report on this bill. I congratulate the convener and the members of the committee on their excellent work. Subject to the approval of members, I look forward to working with them when we move on to detailed consideration of the bill at stage 2.

The Justice and Home Affairs Committee asked me for clarification on a specific point. In our policy memorandum, we said that the bill would have no effect on sustainable development. I understand that the committee received representations to the effect that a bill that affects land ownership must inevitably have some effect on sustainable development. The committee suggested that the Executive might be using a definition of sustainable development that is different from that used by those from whom it heard evidence.

There are a number of definitions of sustainable development. Perhaps the best way I can put it is that sustainable development is about economic growth, social development and environmental protection. I can certainly see that the ownership of land might have some impact on all of those matters, but the reform of the feudal system will not change who owns the land, nor can it be expected to alter the pattern of land ownership. It is a technical and legal matter that affects the way in which people own their property.

I should like to take this opportunity to pay

tribute to the work of the Scottish Law Commission and to its document, \"Report on Abolition of the Feudal System\", which forms the basis of this bill. The commission deserves our thanks for its care and diligence in formulating its proposals. As the committees that have studied the feudal system will readily appreciate—and will, no doubt, appreciate more as we go through stage 2 of the bill—this is a complex subject. The commission had to take the views of a wide range of often conflicting interests as well as assess the state of statutory and common law running back to medieval times.

The commission's main recommendation was that the feudal system should be abolished and replaced by a system of simple ownership of land. The bill would implement that simple recommendation, which I personally commend to members, as such a system already exists in relation to certain allodial land in Scotland. Udal land in Orkney and Shetland is held outright, with no feudal superiors. It gives me particular pleasure to introduce a bill that extends to the rest of Scotland the freedoms that my constituents have enjoyed for centuries.

The bill is divided into seven parts. Part 1 contains the major provisions abolishing the feudal system. Section 1 has a huge resonance:

\"The feudal system of land tenure, that is to say the entire system whereby land is held by a vassal on perpetual tenure from a superior is, on the appointed day, abolished.\"

Scotland has waited an awful long time to hear that sentence.

Feudal tenure is, of course, the technical and legal way in which many of us own our property. The documents that prove that we own our houses are often feudal deeds. They have to be registered so that there is a public record of who owns what and of exactly what they own and what the limits of their ownership are. Part 2 relates to the transfer of ownership and registration of deeds, and is not intended to change the substance of the law. It makes provision to continue the law in a post-feudal context.

Perhaps the best known aspect of the feudal system is the feuduty. Most members probably recall the annual payment of small and rather peculiar sums of money each year to our feudal superiors. The majority of them have disappeared because, from 1974, the feuduty has been redeemed on the sale of most property. However, some properties have not changed hands during the past 25 years and the owner has not voluntarily redeemed the feuduty.

Part 3 would abolish all remaining feuduties. It also provides that if the superior claims compensation for their extinction, it will be paid by the vassal on the same basis as the redemption of feuduty under the Land Tenure Reform (Scotland) Act 1974. The Scottish Law Commission estimates that only 10 per cent of feuduties are left and we suspect that most of those will be apportionments of larger feuduties that have been informally imposed on tenement flats and did not have to be redeemed on sale. The feuduties involved will be small: perhaps £2 to £5 per flat. When the compensation exceeds £100, the bill provides for payment by instalments. The Justice and Home Affairs Committee referred in its report to possible amendments to the compensation provisions, which we will be happy to consider during the stage 2 debates.

Part 4 deals with real burdens, which is one of the most perplexing features of the feudal system. While real burdens can be oppressive, they can also be beneficial and helpful. I will return later to the issue of real burdens, because it is an important and, I accept, somewhat complicated matter.

The next two parts of the bill deal with a variety of subjects. Part 5 covers the subject of entails, which are to be abolished. Part 6 is a miscellaneous part, which deals with a number of matters, including various archaic methods of holding land and the extinction of other payments that are akin to feuduty. I may confess to a certain sadness in abolishing the charming concept of the kindly tenancies of Lochmaben but, along with other anachronisms, they will have to go.

We are also taking the opportunity in this part of the bill of abolishing any remaining feudal privileges attaching to a baronial title. I draw the Parliament's attention to section 51 which, by abolishing rights of irritancy, removes the right of superiors, in certain circumstances, to evict vassals who are in breach of feudal conditions.

Part 7 deals with technical matters such as the appointed day on which the feudal system will finally be abolished. I will return later to the matter of the appointed day, which has given rise to some interest in the Justice and Home Affairs Committee. As well as prescribing several forms that are to be used in the various processes of registration, the schedules repeal many obsolete acts or parts of acts. The bill plays an important role in modernising and cleansing property law.

It might be helpful to give a short explanation of the way in which the feudal system has operated in Scotland and the way in which it operates at present, as there are widespread misconceptions concerning what it means. The feudal system is nothing to do with leasing, and the feudal superior should not be confused with a landlord. A person who owns land under a feudal disposition owns it in law. However, he or she does so as the vassal of a feudal superior who retains an interest in the

land in the form of a right to feuduty and a right to enforce conditions on its use.

With the phasing out of feuduties, the main use of the feudal system is to allow the imposition and enforcement of conditions on property, which are otherwise known as feudal real burdens. A vassal who wants to breach a burden will normally have to obtain the superior's consent. Often, the superior will grant consent only in exchange for payment. A typical modern example of that might be when the vassal wants to build a greenhouse or a garage. Real burdens can give superiors the opportunity to charge fees for waivers. The superior can say, \"Yes, you can build your garage, but only if you pay me a fee.\" Some speculators have acquired superiority interests with the specific intention of deriving an income from waivers. That practice has been strongly criticised.

However, there are two sides to real burdens. Real burdens are often used to ensure that property is kept in good repair, to prevent nuisance and to safeguard the rights of neighbours. The Scottish Law Commission has therefore given careful thought to which burdens should be abolished and which should be retained. It has also thought carefully about the arrangements that will need to be made to retain burdens, which is a matter to which I shall return. The commission has recommended that it should be possible to retain four types of burden. I do not want to say much in detail about those, as they are set out in detail in our policy memorandum.

Broadly, the four types are as follows. First, maritime burdens are burdens that relate to important facilities such as piers and harbours. They will be saved by the bill. Secondly, common facility burdens are burdens that, as the name suggests, relate to a common facility on one property which benefits another property or set of properties. They might be concerned with a private access road or the common passages in a block of flats. Such burdens will also be saved, but the superior will lose the right to enforce them; they will pass to the properties that benefit from the burden.

Thirdly, conservation burdens exist where a burden preserves for the benefit of the public the architectural, historical or other special characteristics of land or buildings. An example would be an historic building that is restored by a conservation trust and feu'd subject to burdens that are designed to preserve the restoration work.

Finally, there is the neighbour burden. Under section 17, superiors may retain the right to enforce certain burdens on neighbouring land. The most common example of that will occur when the superior owns neighbouring land that contains a building of human habitation or resort within 100 m of the land that is affected by the burden. The bill would, for example, allow the superior to continue to preserve a view from his home. The commission recognised that the 100 m rule was arbitrary but considered that the line had to be drawn somewhere.

In reaching policy decisions on the bill, we were concerned that the provisions for saving neighbour burdens did not go far enough. For example, the superior may own land but not yet have built on it. He or she may be planning to build a retirement home and might want to preserve the open aspect of the site. The Executive has therefore decided to give the superior an opportunity to reach agreement with the vassal on which burdens can be saved. As a last resort, the superior can take the matter to the Lands Tribunal for Scotland. The superior will, however, have to satisfy the tribunal that his property would suffer substantial loss or disadvantage if the burden was lost.

There is a fifth category that I want to mention. Although the bill does not propose that they be saved, it provides a compensation package for the loss of development value real burdens—burdens that have been deliberately used to reserve development value for the superior where land has been sold at a discount.

When the bill was referred to the Justice and Home Affairs Committee, I made it clear that there would be scope for reviewing whether those would be the only categories of burden that should be retained. We have received some representations from commercial interests that the bill may not do enough to protect the interests of commercial developers. It is clearly important that we get that aspect of our proposals right; we all want to ensure that nothing is done to discourage commercial investors from investing in Scotland.

The commission has received representations from commercial interests in connection with its current review of real burdens. It is right that I should emphasise at this stage that we will continue to monitor carefully whether what the bill proposes in this matter covers adequately all the burdens that need to be saved.

Another issue that will be familiar to members and the Justice and Home Affairs Committee—it has been raised by those interested in commercial transactions—is the proposed limit of 125 years on long leases. I want to assure the Parliament that we do not have a closed mind on that figure or, generally, on the detailed numbers and quantities that are prescribed in the bill. We fully expect those figures and any suggested alternatives to be properly and fully debated in committee at stage 2.

I turn now to the associated subject of the future of real burdens after the feudal system is abolished and to the package of property reforms that we will present to the Parliament over the next

few years. It is important to take some time over that, because the Justice and Home Affairs Committee sought clarification on, and referred to, it in its stage 1 report.

When I announced in June that we would introduce this bill, I explained that it would be very closely related to the report on real burdens that the Law Commission is preparing. I said that part of the feudal bill would be commenced at the same time as the bill on real burdens. The Justice and Home Affairs Committee has—with some justification—said that it had some difficulty dealing with one part of the package when it could not see the rest. However, there are good reasons for dealing with the matter in this way.

Not all burdens in Scotland are imposed through feudal deeds; many are set out in ordinary, non- feudal deeds of conditions and dispositions. Those burdens will not be affected by the Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill. During its consideration of feudal real burdens, the Scottish Law Commission readily recognised that the general law of real burdens and conditions on property also required modernisation and simplification. It carried out work on the subject and issued a discussion paper in October 1998.

The Executive is committed to introducing a second bill to implement the recommendations in that report. The subject has two corresponding halves. The Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill will abolish many feudal burdens but allow some to be saved and converted into ordinary real burdens. The title conditions bill—as it is to be known—will then introduce a new and modern system for all burdens or conditions on land. Taken together, the two bills will effect a radical reform of this area of Scots law. Obviously, it would have been easier for us all if we could have seen both bills together, but there are reasons why we did not want to hold up the Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill.

I said that I would say more about the date of abolition of the feudal system. As I have explained, superiors will be given the opportunity to register notices if they wish to preserve certain burdens. They will also be given the opportunity to register notices if they wish to claim compensation for feuduty and the loss of development value burdens. If they wish to claim compensation for feuduty, they will have to prepare notices to be served. That will, inevitably, take time.

Superiors will have to identify the cases in which they want to preserve burdens or claim compensation. They will then have to go through the mechanics of registration. The length of the transitional period is a matter of some concern. The commission recommended no less than two years. We took the view that if we were to wait for the publication of the title conditions bill, we would postpone the date on which the transitional period could start and, therefore, the date on which the feudal system would finally be abolished. That is why we have proceeded now with the Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill.

Considering one bill in advance of a sight of the other might not be ideal, but it is possible that the title conditions bill will have to amend the Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill. There may need to be further consideration of how the two bills are linked, and the commencement dates may need to be re-examined. I assure Parliament that we will not commence any aspect of the Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill until we are certain that the time is right to do so. As we proceed through stage 2, we will keep the committee in touch with Law Commission developments.

The Executive is aware that the bill requires some further amendment during its passage, but much of that will be largely technical—I do not think members will wish to be troubled with that at this stage.

For the purposes of rule 9.11 of standing orders, I advise the Parliament that Her Majesty and His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales as Prince and Steward of Scotland, have been informed of the purport of the Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill, and have consented to place their prerogatives and interests, so far as they are affected by the bill, at the disposal of the Parliament for the purposes of the bill.

I know that these matters have sounded very technical. They are technical, but at the heart of them is a very simple proposition: after centuries, we are moving towards the abolition of the feudal system. Today's debate marks an important milestone on that journey.

I move,

That the Parliament agrees to the general principles of the Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc. (Scotland) Bill.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6388347+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C714086", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27231, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 487.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 487.0, "ID": 27231, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 488.0, "ContributionID": 714086, "EditedText": "The first item of business is motion S1M-214, in the name of Jim Wallace.", "EditedTextHTML": "The first item of business is motion S1M-214, in the name of Jim Wallace.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6388347+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C714088", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27231, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 487.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 487.0, "ID": 27231, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 492.0, "ContributionID": 714088, "EditedText": "No, but I can say that at the Parliamentary Bureau meeting yesterday the Executive stated that it would be happy to make a statement when there is any development. The Minister for Rural Affairs is in Brussels today and, I understand, will be here tomorrow. No doubt he will consider the committee's letter but it is a matter for him, not me.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, but I can say that at the Parliamentary Bureau meeting yesterday the Executive stated that it would be happy to make a statement when there is any development. The Minister for Rural Affairs is in Brussels today and, I understand, will be here tomorrow. No doubt he will consider the committee's letter but it is a matter for him, not me.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6388347+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C714149", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sitting Days", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27233, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 631.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 631.0, "ID": 27233, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell (South of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 634.0, "ContributionID": 714149, "EditedText": "Can I speak against the motion?", "EditedTextHTML": "Can I speak against the motion?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6388347+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C714159", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27234, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 650.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 650.0, "ID": 27234, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 656.0, "ContributionID": 714159, "EditedText": "The second question is, that amendment S1M-378.1, in the name of Andrew Wilson, which seeks to amend motion S1M-378, in the name of Jack McConnell, on the draft 2000-01 budget level 2 figures, be agreed to. Are we agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "The second question is, that amendment S1M-378.1, in the name of Andrew Wilson, which seeks to amend motion S1M-378, in the name of Jack McConnell, on the draft 2000-01 budget level 2 figures, be agreed to. Are we agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6388347+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1803E78P291C714105", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27231, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 487.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 487.0, "ID": 27231, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gillon, Karen", "ID": 1803, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Clydesdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Karen Gillon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Karen Gillon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 533.0, "ContributionID": 714105, "EditedText": "I thank the minister for his reply, which will be of great interest to the people who have been affected in my constituency and throughout Scotland. There is a frequent misconception that the issue of feudalism affects only people in rural Scotland and that urban Scotland does not care. From both my previous experience and my experience as a Clydesdale MSP, I know that this issue can affect both rural and urban Scotland, both wealthy and poor. Most people from both rural and urban areas are disgusted when they learn of the situation in which many tenants find themselves. Because of that, I warmly welcome the bill and look forward to Parliament passing it.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the minister for his reply, which will be of great interest to the people who have been affected in my constituency and throughout Scotland.

There is a frequent misconception that the issue of feudalism affects only people in rural Scotland and that urban Scotland does not care. From both my previous experience and my experience as a Clydesdale MSP, I know that this issue can affect both rural and urban Scotland, both wealthy and poor. Most people from both rural and urban areas are disgusted when they learn of the situation in which many tenants find themselves. Because of that, I warmly welcome the bill and look forward to Parliament passing it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6388347+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2122E6P19C714110", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27231, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 487.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 487.0, "ID": 27231, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay", "ID": 2122, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lyndsay McIntosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs McIntosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 546.0, "ContributionID": 714110, "EditedText": "Yes, but those same local councils have imposed burdens and have made money from the situation. I will have to race through the next part of my speech. I do not want to be in the Presiding Officer's black book—it is a long time since I was in anybody's black book. Preserving the countryside's identity would be in the interests of all Scotland; it would preserve our heritage and landscape, from which we derive so many economic benefits. Imagine if we were to allow the desecration of our wonderful landscape, which provides our tourist industry with its most marketable feature other than our people. The Minister for Justice's policy memorandum on the bill states categorically: \"The Executive recognises that certain feudal burdens are, however, beneficial\". Despite that, the minister and his colleagues have not seemed to take account of the diversity of the land use to which the legislation will apply. The arbitrariness of some sections will only give rise to problems similar to those that caused the bill to be introduced in the first place. As was signalled last week in relation to the Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill, I am sure that the minister will welcome many of the amendments that will be lodged, so as to allow unconditional support from across the chamber. I sure that, in so doing, he will show Scotland and the world beyond that this Parliament is a listening Parliament, truly in touch with its people. Let us not avoid the issues of detail at this early stage. If we do, as good as the rest of the legislation may be, we will be condemned for making a half-hearted attempt at it.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes, but those same local councils have imposed burdens and have made money from the situation.

I will have to race through the next part of my speech. I do not want to be in the Presiding Officer's black book—it is a long time since I was in anybody's black book.

Preserving the countryside's identity would be in the interests of all Scotland; it would preserve our heritage and landscape, from which we derive so many economic benefits. Imagine if we were to allow the desecration of our wonderful landscape, which provides our tourist industry with its most marketable feature other than our people.

The Minister for Justice's policy memorandum on the bill states categorically:

\"The Executive recognises that certain feudal burdens are, however, beneficial\".

Despite that, the minister and his colleagues have not seemed to take account of the diversity of the land use to which the legislation will apply. The arbitrariness of some sections will only give rise to problems similar to those that caused the bill to be introduced in the first place.

As was signalled last week in relation to the Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill, I am sure that the minister will welcome many of the amendments that will be lodged, so as to allow unconditional support from across the chamber. I sure that, in so doing, he will show Scotland and the world beyond that this Parliament is a listening Parliament, truly in touch with its people.

Let us not avoid the issues of detail at this early stage. If we do, as good as the rest of the legislation may be, we will be condemned for making a half-hearted attempt at it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6388347+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C714144", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27231, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 487.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 487.0, "ID": 27231, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 626.0, "ContributionID": 714144, "EditedText": "That concludes the debate.", "EditedTextHTML": "That concludes the debate.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6388347+00:00" }, { "ID": "C714146", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill: Financial Resolution ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27232, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 628.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 628.0, "ID": 27232, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 630.0, "ContributionID": 714146, "EditedText": "That the Parliament for the purposes of any Act of the Scottish Parliament resulting from the Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc. (Scotland) Bill, agrees to the following expenditure out of the Scottish Consolidated Fund— (a) expenditure of the Scottish Administration in consequence of the Act; and (b) increases attributable to the Act in the sums payable out of the Fund under any other enactment.—Mr McConnell.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament for the purposes of any Act of the Scottish Parliament resulting from the Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc. (Scotland) Bill, agrees to the following expenditure out of the Scottish Consolidated Fund— (a) expenditure of the Scottish Administration in consequence of the Act; and (b) increases attributable to the Act in the sums payable out of the Fund under any other enactment.—[Mr McConnell.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6388347+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C714116", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27231, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 487.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 487.0, "ID": 27231, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 560.0, "ContributionID": 714116, "EditedText": "That is a fair point, as the speech was beginning to stray off the subject. Has Fiona Hyslop finished her speech?", "EditedTextHTML": "That is a fair point, as the speech was beginning to stray off the subject. Has Fiona Hyslop finished her speech?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6388347+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C714139", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27231, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 487.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 487.0, "ID": 27231, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Justice (Angus MacKay): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 616.0, "ContributionID": 714139, "EditedText": "Thank you, Presiding Officer. How long do I have to speak?", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you, Presiding Officer. How long do I have to speak?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6388347+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C714120", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27231, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 487.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 487.0, "ID": 27231, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Brian Monteith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 571.0, "ContributionID": 714120, "EditedText": "I find it rather sad to be here today talking about the abolition of feudalism. I address members as a vassal, knowing my superior—who is, of course, the Presiding Officer. I would even tug my forelock, if I could. I have listened to the debate with some interest and I am hoping to irritate a few people with my speech. When listening to Karen Gillon's speech, which had particularly strong overtones of class warfare, I thought of the phrase, \"Empty vassals make the most noise.\" After those Tony Blackburn-like puns, I will move on to the real story. Feudalism is, I believe, much misunderstood. If people were only to look at Edinburgh's new town and Glasgow's west end, they would see some of the real benefits of feudalism down the years. Indeed, those who enjoy Princes Street should take care to notice that the north side—which has been devastated since the Town and Country Planning Acts were introduced—faces the south side, where there are no buildings. That allows us to enjoy a view of the castle and Princes Street gardens and is the result of feudalism. Feudalism ensured that, because of burdens, the land could not be developed. Feudalism has a number of things going for it. It is rather odd to argue that it is archaic simply because it is 800 years old. I do not hear people in this chamber arguing—certainly not today— against Christianity, which is coming up for its 2,000th birthday, just because it is old. Feudalism in Scotland has changed and will change further with this bill. It will, in a sense, be abolished, but fortunately some of its benefits will be retained. I speak here of real burdens. It should be recognised that all laws have their defects and need to be amended over time. Not to change laws would be a mistake. However, no one would suggest that, because of spin-doctors such as John Rafferty, we should get rid of devolution. I am not convinced that, just because feudalism has defects, we cannot improve it. Nevertheless, we are seeking to abolish it while retaining its good parts. We should consider the unintended consequences of what we might do—here the minister should take note. Feudalism gives some individual rights. It gives vassals the right to champion their cause against their superior and other vassals in a development. Planning, which people defend as preferable, also gives individuals rights to be heard—heard and, often, ignored by planning authorities. When changing this law, we must give due regard to unfinished business. We must consider taking forward the reform of planning. This country is used to short leases, but one of the unintended consequences of the bill will be long leases. In a sense, we will anglicise our law— laws that predate this Parliament. It is ironic that one of the first bills that this Parliament seeks to pass would anglicise our law and repeal legislation that was passed by its predecessor, which last sat 300 years ago.", "EditedTextHTML": "I find it rather sad to be here today talking about the abolition of feudalism. I address members as a vassal, knowing my superior—who is, of course, the Presiding Officer. I would even tug my forelock, if I could.

I have listened to the debate with some interest and I am hoping to irritate a few people with my speech. When listening to Karen Gillon's speech, which had particularly strong overtones of class warfare, I thought of the phrase, \"Empty vassals make the most noise.\" After those Tony Blackburn-like puns, I will move on to the real story.

Feudalism is, I believe, much misunderstood. If people were only to look at Edinburgh's new town and Glasgow's west end, they would see some of the real benefits of feudalism down the years. Indeed, those who enjoy Princes Street should take care to notice that the north side—which has been devastated since the Town and Country Planning Acts were introduced—faces the south side, where there are no buildings. That allows us to enjoy a view of the castle and Princes Street gardens and is the result of feudalism. Feudalism ensured that, because of burdens, the land could not be developed.

Feudalism has a number of things going for it. It is rather odd to argue that it is archaic simply because it is 800 years old. I do not hear people in this chamber arguing—certainly not today— against Christianity, which is coming up for its 2,000th birthday, just because it is old.

Feudalism in Scotland has changed and will change further with this bill. It will, in a sense, be abolished, but fortunately some of its benefits will be retained. I speak here of real burdens. It should be recognised that all laws have their defects and need to be amended over time. Not to change laws would be a mistake. However, no one would suggest that, because of spin-doctors such as John Rafferty, we should get rid of devolution. I am not convinced that, just because feudalism has defects, we cannot improve it. Nevertheless, we are seeking to abolish it while retaining its good parts.

We should consider the unintended consequences of what we might do—here the minister should take note. Feudalism gives some individual rights. It gives vassals the right to champion their cause against their superior and other vassals in a development. Planning, which people defend as preferable, also gives individuals rights to be heard—heard and, often, ignored by planning authorities. When changing this law, we must give due regard to unfinished business. We must consider taking forward the reform of planning.

This country is used to short leases, but one of the unintended consequences of the bill will be long leases. In a sense, we will anglicise our law— laws that predate this Parliament. It is ironic that one of the first bills that this Parliament seeks to pass would anglicise our law and repeal legislation that was passed by its predecessor, which last sat 300 years ago.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6388347+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C714132", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27231, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 487.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 487.0, "ID": 27231, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 600.0, "ContributionID": 714132, "EditedText": "I beg your pardon.Those abuses should be eliminated now. The appointed day is too long away and I call on the Executive and the SNP to instruct their colleagues in councils to end such abuses of the system. They can do that without legislation and without waiting for two years. I am sorry to be in your black book, Presiding Officer.", "EditedTextHTML": "I beg your pardon.

Those abuses should be eliminated now. The appointed day is too long away and I call on the Executive and the SNP to instruct their colleagues in councils to end such abuses of the system. They can do that without legislation and without waiting for two years.

I am sorry to be in your black book, Presiding Officer.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6388347+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C714123", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27231, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 487.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 487.0, "ID": 27231, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 579.0, "ContributionID": 714123, "EditedText": "Please make your comments brief, Mr Ewing.", "EditedTextHTML": "Please make your comments brief, Mr Ewing.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6388347+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2085E206P337C714125", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27231, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 487.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 487.0, "ID": 27231, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Munro, John Farquhar", "ID": 2085, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ross, Skye and Inverness West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Farquhar Munro", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr John Munro (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 584.0, "ContributionID": 714125, "EditedText": "As members will appreciate, the bill is complex. Nobody imagined at the outset that it would be easy. Some difficulties have yet to be discussed. If it is any consolation to my friend Fergus Ewing, I am sure that it will be a bonanza for the legal profession. For the next 50 years, lawyers will be bankrolling as a result of it. I gather that there is concern about what the ultimate superior should be called. There seems to be resentment about calling it the Crown, the Parliament or the feudal superior. That does not exercise me too much, but it is something on which we will have to agree. I am sure that most rational people agree that legislation is necessary and reform long overdue. Another issue that has exercised my mind is the distinction between public ownership and public interest. Many parts of Scotland are currently in public ownership. For example, the National Trust for Scotland owns many properties. We must be clear about what is implied by the term public interest. Is it confined to a local community or does it apply to the wider community of Scotland? Scanning the draft documents, I note that some change is just slipping through. I am concerned that the section on the barony title suggests that it can be transferred by simple assignation. That is a simplistic view of the matter. People who have a barony title should have to demonstrate their title to that barony. That would be in the interests of the public as well as of the land. We should not accept, as some people would like us to, that the land stops at the high-water mark; there should be more public involvement before any of those matters are simply disposed of by assignation. The other issue that has exercised my mind—I see little in the bill to address the situation—is other uses of land that give it value. Who, or what, will control sporting rights, fishing rights and mineral rights, all of which have a community interest? We must have a clear answer.", "EditedTextHTML": "As members will appreciate, the bill is complex. Nobody imagined at the outset that it would be easy. Some difficulties have yet to be discussed. If it is any consolation to my friend Fergus Ewing, I am sure that it will be a bonanza for the legal profession. For the next 50 years, lawyers will be bankrolling as a result of it.

I gather that there is concern about what the ultimate superior should be called. There seems to be resentment about calling it the Crown, the Parliament or the feudal superior. That does not exercise me too much, but it is something on which we will have to agree. I am sure that most rational people agree that legislation is necessary and reform long overdue.

Another issue that has exercised my mind is the distinction between public ownership and public interest. Many parts of Scotland are currently in public ownership. For example, the National Trust for Scotland owns many properties. We must be clear about what is implied by the term public interest. Is it confined to a local community or does it apply to the wider community of Scotland?

Scanning the draft documents, I note that some change is just slipping through. I am concerned that the section on the barony title suggests that it can be transferred by simple assignation. That is a simplistic view of the matter. People who have a barony title should have to demonstrate their title to that barony. That would be in the interests of the public as well as of the land. We should not accept, as some people would like us to, that the land stops at the high-water mark; there should be more public involvement before any of those matters are simply disposed of by assignation.

The other issue that has exercised my mind—I see little in the bill to address the situation—is other uses of land that give it value. Who, or what, will control sporting rights, fishing rights and mineral rights, all of which have a community interest? We must have a clear answer.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6388347+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C714127", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27231, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 487.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 487.0, "ID": 27231, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 589.0, "ContributionID": 714127, "EditedText": "Yes, you are comfortably within time—by 14 seconds.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes, you are comfortably within time—by 14 seconds.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6388347+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C714129", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27231, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 487.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 487.0, "ID": 27231, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 594.0, "ContributionID": 714129, "EditedText": "Wind up, please.", "EditedTextHTML": "Wind up, please.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6388347+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C714131", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27231, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 487.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 487.0, "ID": 27231, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 598.0, "ContributionID": 714131, "EditedText": "I am sorry, Mr McLetchie, but you are almost two minutes over your allotted time.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry, Mr McLetchie, but you are almost two minutes over your allotted time.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6388347+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C714143", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27231, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 487.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 487.0, "ID": 27231, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Angus MacKay: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 624.0, "ContributionID": 714143, "EditedText": "I do not think that I will get into that debate, as I might be tempted to make comments that I would regret later. Mr McLetchie referred the Wester Hailes case that he spoke about to Mr Gray, as Mr Gray was the constituency MSP. His action is an example to all the regional list MSPs in the chamber. One of the earliest points that was made today was that this is not a stand-alone bill. The Minister for Justice covered that in his opening speech and said that we will continue to monitor the position carefully while the Scottish Law Commission develops its proposals on title conditions. He made it clear when the bill was announced that it was closely related to the report on real burdens that was still to be produced by the Scottish Law Commission. We have at no time attempted to hide that fact, which the Justice and Home Affairs Committee would acknowledge to be the case. Roseanna Cunningham suggested that payment of compensation could be tied to the provision of information on land holdings. Whether that can be done is questionable, as the entitlement to compensation is linked to the European convention on human rights. The removal of the right to feuduty might be regarded as a form of expropriation. We might be able to take action on that matter, but will wait until the committees have conducted detailed examination of the bill. A similar situation exists with regard to the suggestion of a cap on compensation for feuduty. It might be that, under the European convention on human rights, such a cap would constitute expropriation of the superior's property. We will take cognisance of that when we consider amendments. At a late stage—something that the Scottish National party acknowledged—the opinion of Sir Crispin Agnew of Lochnaw QC was brought forward. It would be helpful if the Executive were able to take some time to reflect on Sir Crispin's opinion. However, an interesting and important point is raised, in relation to the interest of the Crown. That was echoed by Robin Harper, among others. In so far as the Crown is a paramount superior, it can only enforce private rights in land. The Crown exercises its public interest role through giving royal assent to acts of Parliament and through the actings of public authorities. It follows, then, that there should be no need to prescribe specifically in any bill that the Crown acts in the public interest. That point bears further examination. At the time of its consultations on general land reform, the land reform policy group invited comments on the proposal for an enhanced role for the Crown in relation to the ownership of land. There was little support among respondents at that time for the creation of new public rights for the Crown. The idea was—rightly, I think— regarded as undemocratic, old-fashioned and potentially extremely expensive. The feudal system of land tenure and thegeneral law of real burdens—that is, conditions on land—relate to the private regulation of land by property owners, including ordinary householders. The feudal system itself provided a kind of planning system, before such legislation was ever in existence. Its effect has been felt much more strongly in urban than in rural areas, so abolition will also impact more strongly in towns and cities than in the countryside. It is difficult to see how the Crown could represent the public interest in relation to burdens affecting tenement property or burdens imposed by local authorities when, for example, council houses were sold under the right-to-buy legislation. The Scottish Law Commission has been extensively consulted on the arguments put forward by those who wish to see a statutory provision for public interest in land, by means of the Crown playing some kind of guardianship role. The commission has commented that such an approach would mean that feudalism would not be abolished. Property owners would remain as feudal vassals, albeit as direct vassals of the Crown. The bill would require fundamental surgery and feudal law would have to be retained, to regulate the relationship between Crown and subject. As a result, the new system would continue to be almost as complex as the existing one. One of the important benefits to be derived from feudal abolition is a uniform, clear, simple system of land ownership. That would not be achieved if the vassal-Crown relationship were retained. The commission has commented that it might be absurd to preserve the feudal system merely to allow the symbolic declaration of public interest. It went further, observing that such a declaration had little relevance to tenement flats and other urban properties. That gives a strong case of presumption against the notion that we should retain public interest vested in the Crown. Again, if members feel sufficiently strongly, it is an issue that can be further debated at stage 2. I will pass on from the issue of the lack of defined public interest in relation to the Crown, as it is bound up in one debate. Tricia Marwick referred to the lack of research on properties subject to feuduties, an issue that has been raised in other quarters. There is no reason to doubt the accuracy of the Scottish Law Commission's assessment that less than 10 per cent of properties in Scotland are still subject to feuduty and that most of those sums are small. Many who have sold a property since the Land Tenure Reform (Scotland) Act 1974 have had to redeem the feuduty on that property. In this legislation, we are effectively sweeping up the remainder, but at stage 2 we can look again at the detailed arrangements for payment by instalments to minimise any risk of hardship. To address one final point, Phil Gallie raised the issue of the 125-year limit on commercial leases. The 125-year figure emerged from the Scottish Law Commission after consultation on that specific issue. The Executive recognises that there is room for argument and will be willing to discuss precise figures further at stage 2. As the Minister for Justice explained earlier in the debate, abolition of the feudal system is simply the first step in a programme of property law reform. This bill will be followed by another on real burdens and title conditions, which will in turn set the scene for the reform of the law of the tenement. The programme of technical reforms of property law should be seen as running in tandem with that of more general land reform. Apart from the land reform bill and the bill to introduce national parks in Scotland, in future years, there will be further legislation on sites of special scientific interest, agricultural holdings and crofting. I am delighted that, after many years of neglect and inertia, land and property reform will at last take centre stage in political debate, forming a major part of the Scottish Parliament's initial legislative programme.", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not think that I will get into that debate, as I might be tempted to make comments that I would regret later.

Mr McLetchie referred the Wester Hailes case that he spoke about to Mr Gray, as Mr Gray was the constituency MSP. His action is an example to all the regional list MSPs in the chamber.

One of the earliest points that was made today was that this is not a stand-alone bill. The Minister for Justice covered that in his opening speech and said that we will continue to monitor the position carefully while the Scottish Law Commission develops its proposals on title conditions. He made it clear when the bill was announced that it was closely related to the report on real burdens that was still to be produced by the Scottish Law Commission. We have at no time attempted to hide that fact, which the Justice and Home Affairs Committee would acknowledge to be the case.

Roseanna Cunningham suggested that payment of compensation could be tied to the provision of information on land holdings. Whether that can be done is questionable, as the entitlement to compensation is linked to the European convention on human rights. The removal of the right to feuduty might be regarded as a form of expropriation. We might be able to take action on that matter, but will wait until the committees have conducted detailed examination of the bill.

A similar situation exists with regard to the suggestion of a cap on compensation for feuduty. It might be that, under the European convention on human rights, such a cap would constitute expropriation of the superior's property. We will take cognisance of that when we consider amendments.

At a late stage—something that the Scottish National party acknowledged—the opinion of Sir Crispin Agnew of Lochnaw QC was brought forward. It would be helpful if the Executive were able to take some time to reflect on Sir Crispin's opinion. However, an interesting and important point is raised, in relation to the interest of the Crown. That was echoed by Robin Harper, among others.

In so far as the Crown is a paramount superior, it can only enforce private rights in land. The Crown exercises its public interest role through giving royal assent to acts of Parliament and through the actings of public authorities. It follows, then, that there should be no need to prescribe specifically in any bill that the Crown acts in the public interest. That point bears further examination. At the time of its consultations on general land reform, the land reform policy group invited comments on the proposal for an enhanced role for the Crown in relation to the ownership of land. There was little support among respondents at that time for the creation of new public rights for the Crown. The idea was—rightly, I think— regarded as undemocratic, old-fashioned and potentially extremely expensive.

The feudal system of land tenure and the

general law of real burdens—that is, conditions on land—relate to the private regulation of land by property owners, including ordinary householders. The feudal system itself provided a kind of planning system, before such legislation was ever in existence. Its effect has been felt much more strongly in urban than in rural areas, so abolition will also impact more strongly in towns and cities than in the countryside.

It is difficult to see how the Crown could represent the public interest in relation to burdens affecting tenement property or burdens imposed by local authorities when, for example, council houses were sold under the right-to-buy legislation. The Scottish Law Commission has been extensively consulted on the arguments put forward by those who wish to see a statutory provision for public interest in land, by means of the Crown playing some kind of guardianship role.

The commission has commented that such an approach would mean that feudalism would not be abolished. Property owners would remain as feudal vassals, albeit as direct vassals of the Crown. The bill would require fundamental surgery and feudal law would have to be retained, to regulate the relationship between Crown and subject. As a result, the new system would continue to be almost as complex as the existing one.

One of the important benefits to be derived from feudal abolition is a uniform, clear, simple system of land ownership. That would not be achieved if the vassal-Crown relationship were retained. The commission has commented that it might be absurd to preserve the feudal system merely to allow the symbolic declaration of public interest. It went further, observing that such a declaration had little relevance to tenement flats and other urban properties. That gives a strong case of presumption against the notion that we should retain public interest vested in the Crown. Again, if members feel sufficiently strongly, it is an issue that can be further debated at stage 2.

I will pass on from the issue of the lack of defined public interest in relation to the Crown, as it is bound up in one debate. Tricia Marwick referred to the lack of research on properties subject to feuduties, an issue that has been raised in other quarters. There is no reason to doubt the accuracy of the Scottish Law Commission's assessment that less than 10 per cent of properties in Scotland are still subject to feuduty and that most of those sums are small. Many who have sold a property since the Land Tenure Reform (Scotland) Act 1974 have had to redeem the feuduty on that property. In this legislation, we are effectively sweeping up the remainder, but at stage 2 we can look again at the detailed arrangements for payment by instalments to minimise any risk of hardship.

To address one final point, Phil Gallie raised the issue of the 125-year limit on commercial leases. The 125-year figure emerged from the Scottish Law Commission after consultation on that specific issue. The Executive recognises that there is room for argument and will be willing to discuss precise figures further at stage 2. As the Minister for Justice explained earlier in the debate, abolition of the feudal system is simply the first step in a programme of property law reform. This bill will be followed by another on real burdens and title conditions, which will in turn set the scene for the reform of the law of the tenement. The programme of technical reforms of property law should be seen as running in tandem with that of more general land reform.

Apart from the land reform bill and the bill to introduce national parks in Scotland, in future years, there will be further legislation on sites of special scientific interest, agricultural holdings and crofting. I am delighted that, after many years of neglect and inertia, land and property reform will at last take centre stage in political debate, forming a major part of the Scottish Parliament's initial legislative programme.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6388347+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2068E171P304C714152", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sitting Days", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27233, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 631.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 631.0, "ID": 27233, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stone, Jamie", "ID": 2068, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie Stone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 640.0, "ContributionID": 714152, "EditedText": "On a point of order. In November, I lodged a motion in much the same terms as the one to which Mr Russell refers. Why is it that no members of the SNP have bothered to take up the issue until today? We have wasted a whole month.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. In November, I lodged a motion in much the same terms as the one to which Mr Russell refers. Why is it that no members of the SNP have bothered to take up the issue until today? We have wasted a whole month.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6388347+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1893E47P78C714154", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sitting Days", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27233, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 631.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 631.0, "ID": 27233, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnstone, Alex", "ID": 1893, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Johnstone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Johnstone (North-East Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 645.0, "ContributionID": 714154, "EditedText": "I would like to take this opportunity to associate the Conservative party with the remarks made by Mike Russell. This week, I visited the Highlands and spoke to many farmers who are affected by the situation, and it is a matter for grave concern. We are as concerned as the SNP. I commend the SNP for its decision to volunteer part of its time and I hope that that is successful.", "EditedTextHTML": "I would like to take this opportunity to associate the Conservative party with the remarks made by Mike Russell. This week, I visited the Highlands and spoke to many farmers who are affected by the situation, and it is a matter for grave concern. We are as concerned as the SNP. I commend the SNP for its decision to volunteer part of its time and I hope that that is successful.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6388347+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C714156", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27234, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 650.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 650.0, "ID": 27234, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 652.0, "ContributionID": 714156, "EditedText": "The first question is, that motion S1M-338, in the name of Mike Rumbles, on the Standards Committee report on cross-party groups, be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "The first question is, that motion S1M-338, in the name of Mike Rumbles, on the Standards Committee report on cross-party groups, be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6388347+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C714167", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27234, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 650.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 650.0, "ID": 27234, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 671.0, "ContributionID": 714167, "EditedText": "The result of the division is: For 32, Against 78, Abstentions 0.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result of the division is: For 32, Against 78, Abstentions 0.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5138024+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C714169", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27234, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 650.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 650.0, "ID": 27234, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 674.0, "ContributionID": 714169, "EditedText": "Does Jackie Baillie have a problem?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does Jackie Baillie have a problem?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5138024+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C714171", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27234, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 650.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 650.0, "ID": 27234, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 678.0, "ContributionID": 714171, "EditedText": "How do you know that it is not working?", "EditedTextHTML": "How do you know that it is not working?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5138024+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C714173", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27234, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 650.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 650.0, "ID": 27234, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Children and Education (Mr Sam Galbraith): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 682.0, "ContributionID": 714173, "EditedText": "Very technical. Go to another one.", "EditedTextHTML": "Very technical. Go to another one.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5138024+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C714176", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27234, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 650.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 650.0, "ID": 27234, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 688.0, "ContributionID": 714176, "EditedText": "There is some disagreement, so we will have a division.", "EditedTextHTML": "There is some disagreement, so we will have a division.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5138024+00:00" }, { "ID": "C714177", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27234, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 650.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 650.0, "ID": 27234, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 690.0, "ContributionID": 714177, "EditedText": "FOR Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)(LD)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)AGAINST Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Johnston, Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)
(LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)

AGAINST

Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Johnston, Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5138024+00:00" }, { "ID": "C714179", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27234, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 650.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 650.0, "ID": 27234, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 693.0, "ContributionID": 714179, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5138024+00:00" }, { "ID": "C714180", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27234, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 650.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 650.0, "ID": 27234, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 694.0, "ContributionID": 714180, "EditedText": "That the Parliament commends the Executive's expenditure plans published in the consultation paper Spending Plans for Scotland on 17 November 1999 and endorses the spending priorities set out in the paper in line with the commitments of the Partnership Agreement and the Programme for Government.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament commends the Executive's expenditure plans published in the consultation paper Spending Plans for Scotland on 17 November 1999 and endorses the spending priorities set out in the paper in line with the commitments of the Partnership Agreement and the Programme for Government.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5138024+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C714181", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27234, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 650.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 650.0, "ID": 27234, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 695.0, "ContributionID": 714181, "EditedText": "The fourth question is, that motion S1M-214, in the name of Jim Wallace, on the general principles of the Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill, be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "The fourth question is, that motion S1M-214, in the name of Jim Wallace, on the general principles of the Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill, be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5138024+00:00" }, { "ID": "C714183", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27234, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 650.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 650.0, "ID": 27234, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 698.0, "ContributionID": 714183, "EditedText": "That the Parliament agrees to the general principles of the Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc. (Scotland) Bill.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament agrees to the general principles of the Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc. (Scotland) Bill.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5138024+00:00" }, { "ID": "C714187", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27234, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 650.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 650.0, "ID": 27234, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 703.0, "ContributionID": 714187, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5138024+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C714189", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fife Rail Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27235, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 705.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 705.0, "ID": 27235, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 706.0, "ContributionID": 714189, "EditedText": "Members' business tonight is motion S1M-379, in the name of Tricia Marwick, on the Fife rail service. Helen Eadie will open the debate. I ask members who are not waiting for the debate to be courteous and leave very quietly.", "EditedTextHTML": "Members' business tonight is motion S1M-379, in the name of Tricia Marwick, on the Fife rail service. Helen Eadie will open the debate. I ask members who are not waiting for the debate to be courteous and leave very quietly.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5138024+00:00" }, { "ID": "C714190", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fife Rail Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27235, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 705.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 705.0, "ID": 27235, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 708.0, "ContributionID": 714190, "EditedText": "Motion debated,", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion debated,

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5138024+00:00" }, { "ID": "C714191", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fife Rail Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27235, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 705.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 705.0, "ID": 27235, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 709.0, "ContributionID": 714191, "EditedText": "That the Parliament notes with concern the appalling level of rail services being provided to the people of Fife and makes representations to ScotRail and Railtrack to improve this service; notes with concern the overcrowding on these trains and the health and safety issues this presents; calls upon ScotRail to announce and implement an immediate action plan to improve punctuality, reduce train cancellations and increase the number of carriages on peak-time trains, with such an action plan to have been successfully implemented within six months, and further calls for an explanation why the new rolling stock which was ordered from the train manufacturing companies by ScotRail for use on this line has still not been delivered more than four years later.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament notes with concern the appalling level of rail services being provided to the people of Fife and makes representations to ScotRail and Railtrack to improve this service; notes with concern the overcrowding on these trains and the health and safety issues this presents; calls upon ScotRail to announce and implement an immediate action plan to improve punctuality, reduce train cancellations and increase the number of carriages on peak-time trains, with such an action plan to have been successfully implemented within six months, and further calls for an explanation why the new rolling stock which was ordered from the train manufacturing companies by ScotRail for use on this line has still not been delivered more than four years later.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5138024+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1832E96P195C714196", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fife Rail Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27235, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 705.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 705.0, "ID": 27235, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Livingstone, Marilyn", "ID": 1832, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Kirkcaldy" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Marilyn Livingstone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Marilyn Livingstone (Kirkcaldy) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 723.0, "ContributionID": 714196, "EditedText": "I am pleased to support this cross-party motion. The Fife rail service is paramount for the economic, social and environmental well-being of my constituency. In common with the rest of Fife, Kirkcaldy needs and depends on a rail service that is reliable, punctual, accessible and meets people's needs and that has safety as its first priority. Indeed, safety must be first, second and third on ScotRail's and Railtrack's agenda. Since being elected in May, I, like Helen Eadie and Tricia Marwick, have travelled on the Fife line. My mailbag supports our frustration with and concerns about this appalling and inadequate service. As someone who has begun commuting only recently, and as a regular user of the rail service between Kirkcaldy and Edinburgh, empathise with the feeling of frustration felt by constituents and members. Too many trains are overcrowded. It is commonplace for large numbers of adults to be crushed like sardines—that is the only way to describe it—into corridors, with many people not able to board the train, and for arguments to take place at the door about who will board and who will not. Too many trains are cancelled without any explanation. Recently on the Kirkcaldy to Edinburgh line, a class 117 train, which I believe is older than me, had serious engine failure, resulting in smoke being emitted from the engine area and penetrating the saloon. My constituents thought that the train was on fire. According to the response to that incident that I received recently from ScotRail, the engine blew— in layman's terms—because those trains are well past their useful life. However, they have to be used on the Fife service in order to provide a \"sufficient\"—that is the word that ScotRail used— number of seats and capacity. I do not think that members would agree with ScotRail's use of the word \"sufficient\"—it is not the adjective that we would have used. We want to encourage use of public transport. I support the minister's transport strategy and we are already seeing evidence that it is working. However, ScotRail must recognise commuters' needs and put in place a sustainable development plan for the line. We must not forget that in many constituencies—including mine—an increased number of stops and stations is required. I hope that there will be an increase in the number of stations in Kirkcaldy, with stations at Dysart and, perhaps, Sinclairtown. Car parking is another major issue—the car parking at Kirkcaldy station is absolutely diabolical. If one arrives after quarter to 9, one cannot park anywhere near the station, which deters people from using public transport. I, too, have written recently to ScotRail's managing director, Alastair McPherson, who, in his reply, acknowledged the problems and told me about his plans to introduce new rolling stock. Many members are aware of the delays to those plans, but he stated that the introduction of new stock was imminent. Although we look forward to that, I am concerned that it will amount to the cascading of second-hand stock. The Fife service must be seen not as a second-class service but as a major one. In addition to new rolling stock, we need increased capacity, which, we are told, there will be in 2000—but when? I asked Mr McPherson to join me on a journey between Kirkcaldy and Edinburgh, and he has agreed. I look forward to putting these points—and others that have been raised today—to him. I conclude by echoing the words of the motion. We call on ScotRail to announce and implement an action plan to ensure that we have reliable, punctual, safe and—important for my constituents—affordable rail travel.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am pleased to support this cross-party motion. The Fife rail service is paramount for the economic, social and environmental well-being of my constituency. In common with the rest of Fife, Kirkcaldy needs and depends on a rail service that is reliable, punctual, accessible and meets people's needs and that has safety as its first priority. Indeed, safety must be first, second and third on ScotRail's and Railtrack's agenda.

Since being elected in May, I, like Helen Eadie and Tricia Marwick, have travelled on the Fife line. My mailbag supports our frustration with and concerns about this appalling and inadequate service. As someone who has begun commuting only recently, and as a regular user of the rail service between Kirkcaldy and Edinburgh, empathise with the feeling of frustration felt by constituents and members.

Too many trains are overcrowded. It is commonplace for large numbers of adults to be crushed like sardines—that is the only way to describe it—into corridors, with many people not able to board the train, and for arguments to take place at the door about who will board and who will not. Too many trains are cancelled without any explanation. Recently on the Kirkcaldy to

Edinburgh line, a class 117 train, which I believe is older than me, had serious engine failure, resulting in smoke being emitted from the engine area and penetrating the saloon. My constituents thought that the train was on fire.

According to the response to that incident that I received recently from ScotRail, the engine blew— in layman's terms—because those trains are well past their useful life. However, they have to be used on the Fife service in order to provide a \"sufficient\"—that is the word that ScotRail used— number of seats and capacity. I do not think that members would agree with ScotRail's use of the word \"sufficient\"—it is not the adjective that we would have used.

We want to encourage use of public transport. I support the minister's transport strategy and we are already seeing evidence that it is working. However, ScotRail must recognise commuters' needs and put in place a sustainable development plan for the line.

We must not forget that in many constituencies—including mine—an increased number of stops and stations is required. I hope that there will be an increase in the number of stations in Kirkcaldy, with stations at Dysart and, perhaps, Sinclairtown. Car parking is another major issue—the car parking at Kirkcaldy station is absolutely diabolical. If one arrives after quarter to 9, one cannot park anywhere near the station, which deters people from using public transport.

I, too, have written recently to ScotRail's managing director, Alastair McPherson, who, in his reply, acknowledged the problems and told me about his plans to introduce new rolling stock. Many members are aware of the delays to those plans, but he stated that the introduction of new stock was imminent. Although we look forward to that, I am concerned that it will amount to the cascading of second-hand stock. The Fife service must be seen not as a second-class service but as a major one. In addition to new rolling stock, we need increased capacity, which, we are told, there will be in 2000—but when?

I asked Mr McPherson to join me on a journey between Kirkcaldy and Edinburgh, and he has agreed. I look forward to putting these points—and others that have been raised today—to him.

I conclude by echoing the words of the motion. We call on ScotRail to announce and implement an action plan to ensure that we have reliable, punctual, safe and—important for my constituents—affordable rail travel.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5138024+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C714205", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fife Rail Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27235, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 705.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 705.0, "ID": 27235, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 743.0, "ContributionID": 714205, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:19.5138024+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C714124", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27231, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 487.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 487.0, "ID": 27231, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fergus Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 581.0, "ContributionID": 714124, "EditedText": "I know that lawyers have wasted hundreds of thousands of hours charging unnecessary money to clients for doing all those entirely useless things to feuduties. In that spirit—and to avoid the Presiding Officer's black book—I urge the Executive to consider those criticisms.", "EditedTextHTML": "I know that lawyers have wasted hundreds of thousands of hours charging unnecessary money to clients for doing all those entirely useless things to feuduties.

In that spirit—and to avoid the Presiding Officer's black book—I urge the Executive to consider those criticisms.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:01:03.9549326+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C713908", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fergus Ewing (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 115.0, "ContributionID": 713908, "EditedText": "In his statement last week, the Minister for Finance mentioned that the provisional business rate in Scotland would be 45.8p. However, for some reason—perhaps natural coyness—he did not mention that the provisional rate for England and Wales would be 41.6p. If my arithmetic is correct, that means that, for most businesses in Scotland, business rates will be 10.1 per cent higher than those south of the border. For small businesses, the figure will be around 8p higher than it is south of the border. Labour is now copying a Tory policy of imposing higher business rates in Scotland than in England. Does Andrew Wilson believe that Mr McConnell should get the credit for this new tax on Scotland's businesses and that it should be called Jack's tax? It is Jack's tax on business, which will cost Scotland many jobs. Andrew Wilson: I thank Fergus Ewing for hitting the nail on the head. Council taxes are soaring and businesses are being hammered by Labour. That may become Jack's legacy. At the risk of immortalising him in a phrase, I suppose that we can call it Jack's tax. Will the minister explain to the waiting Scottish public why he has introduced this tax—Jack's tax, as Fergus calls it?", "EditedTextHTML": "In his statement last week, the Minister for Finance mentioned that the provisional business rate in Scotland would be 45.8p. However, for some reason—perhaps natural coyness—he did not mention that the provisional rate for England and Wales would be 41.6p. If my arithmetic is correct, that means that, for most businesses in Scotland, business rates will be

10.1 per cent higher than those south of the border. For small businesses, the figure will be around 8p higher than it is south of the border. Labour is now copying a Tory policy of imposing higher business rates in Scotland than in England. Does Andrew Wilson believe that Mr McConnell should get the credit for this new tax on Scotland's businesses and that it should be called Jack's tax? It is Jack's tax on business, which will cost Scotland many jobs. Andrew Wilson: I thank Fergus Ewing for hitting the nail on the head. Council taxes are soaring and businesses are being hammered by Labour. That may become Jack's legacy. At the risk of immortalising him in a phrase, I suppose that we can call it Jack's tax. Will the minister explain to the waiting Scottish public why he has introduced this tax—Jack's tax, as Fergus calls it?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:00:52.6390172+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1773E197P503C713949", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hyslop, Fiona", "ID": 1773, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona Hyslop", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona Hyslop (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 199.0, "ContributionID": 713949, "EditedText": "Mr Raffan mentioned £12 million for the healthy homes initiative. Is not he confusing that with the warm deal proposals? Will he explain exactly where that £12 million will be spent or does he agree that it does not actually exist?", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Raffan mentioned £12 million for the healthy homes initiative. Is not he confusing that with the warm deal proposals? Will he explain exactly where that £12 million will be spent or does he agree that it does not actually exist?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:01:13.4086808+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C714198", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fife Rail Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27235, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 705.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 705.0, "ID": 27235, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment (Sarah Boyack): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 729.0, "ContributionID": 714198, "EditedText": "I am grateful to both Tricia Marwick and Helen Eadie for initiating this debate. It is unusual to achieve such unanimity throughout the chamber and to have so many members present for a members' business debate. That reflects the frustration, the irritation and the anger that exist in Fife. I have been made aware of the postcards and letters that Helen Eadie has received, some of which have been diverted to my office.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful to both Tricia Marwick and Helen Eadie for initiating this debate. It is unusual to achieve such unanimity throughout the chamber and to have so many members present for a members' business debate. That reflects the frustration, the irritation and the anger that exist in Fife. I have been made aware of the postcards and letters that Helen Eadie has received, some of which have been diverted to my office.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:14.3101891+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C714200", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fife Rail Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27235, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 705.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 705.0, "ID": 27235, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 733.0, "ContributionID": 714200, "EditedText": "The unanimity that I was assuming was the fact that all members want a dramatic improvement in the quality of rail services to Fife and the rest of the country. I am sure that there are details—of which privatisation is the major one—on which we will disagree. However, the overall objective of improvement must be one on which we all agree. I want to express my concerns, as a minister, that the rail industry is not meeting the needs of Fife commuters or the needs of Fife leisure travellers. We must sort that out. I am well aware of the growing complaints, and I know that, although we are trying to persuade and encourage people out of their cars and on to buses and trains, the Fife rail service is not a good advert. That does not make my job as a minister any easier. Understandably, the prospect of being squeezed like a sardine in old rolling stock, as several members have pointed out, does not entice people further. If rail services in Fife are to make a full and increasing contribution to integrated transport and give people a real choice, the service will have to improve dramatically. Companies know that, as I have met them and told them so. I have told them of the Executive's objectives and of the daily complaints that I receive from individuals in Fife. They know that there is concern.", "EditedTextHTML": "The unanimity that I was assuming was the fact that all members want a dramatic improvement in the quality of rail services to Fife and the rest of the country. I am sure that there are details—of which privatisation is the major one—on which we will disagree. However, the overall objective of improvement must be one on which we all agree. I want to express my concerns, as a minister, that the rail industry is not meeting the needs of Fife commuters or the needs of Fife leisure travellers. We must sort that out.

I am well aware of the growing complaints, and I know that, although we are trying to persuade and encourage people out of their cars and on to buses and trains, the Fife rail service is not a good advert. That does not make my job as a minister any easier. Understandably, the prospect of being squeezed like a sardine in old rolling stock, as several members have pointed out, does not entice people further. If rail services in Fife are to make a full and increasing contribution to integrated transport and give people a real choice, the service will have to improve dramatically. Companies know that, as I have met them and told them so. I have told them of the Executive's objectives and of the daily complaints that I receive from individuals in Fife. They know that there is concern.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:14.3101891+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C714204", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fife Rail Service", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27235, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 705.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 705.0, "ID": 27235, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 741.0, "ContributionID": 714204, "EditedText": "That is an interesting point. The levels of reliability that ScotRail is trying to achieve are up in the high 90s. If there are regular problems in Fife, that will feed through to those performance figures. Leaving aside the publicity that MPs and MSPs have given to the problems of Fife rail services, the problems will show through in the figures and will be an issue when the franchises are replaced if ScotRail cannot tackle them.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is an interesting point. The levels of reliability that ScotRail is trying to achieve are up in the high 90s. If there are regular problems in Fife, that will feed through to those performance figures. Leaving aside the publicity that MPs and MSPs have given to the problems of Fife rail services, the problems will show through in the figures and will be an issue when the franchises are replaced if ScotRail cannot tackle them.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:14.3101891+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C714005", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 316.0, "ContributionID": 714005, "EditedText": "I welcome Des McNulty's speech. I would like to be able to say that this has been a constructive debate, but too many members of the Lib-Lab coalition were more interested in attacking the Scottish National party than they were in defending their policies on public spending. I want to focus on education spending. I am happy to welcome the extra money that will be spent on education over the period of the comprehensive spending review. That extra money is welcome—but it is certainly not before time. Education spending in the first two years of the Labour Government was less than it was in the last two years of the Tory Government—a fact that was recently admitted in a parliamentary answer to my colleague Andrew Wilson.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome Des McNulty's speech. I would like to be able to say that this has been a constructive debate, but too many members of the Lib-Lab coalition were more interested in attacking the Scottish National party than they were in defending their policies on public spending.

I want to focus on education spending. I am happy to welcome the extra money that will be spent on education over the period of the comprehensive spending review. That extra money is welcome—but it is certainly not before time. Education spending in the first two years of the Labour Government was less than it was in the last two years of the Tory Government—a fact that was recently admitted in a parliamentary answer to my colleague Andrew Wilson.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:00:50.3207435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C713972", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 245.0, "ContributionID": 713972, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:23:24.0508186+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C714028", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 368.0, "ContributionID": 714028, "EditedText": "Dr Simpson is welcome to put those points on the record, but he should also have said that in the figures from 1996-97 to 1997-98— the first year of the Labour Government at Westminster—there was a real-terms cut in the health budget. That completes the information that should be put on the record. In this debate, a lot has hinged on whether we are spending enough in Scotland. We have heard different views from several different sources in the Parliament. The clearest and sharpest differences of view have come from Liberal Democrat members. Ian Jenkins made a most revealing statement, a moment ago, in which he said that he thought that much more money should be spent. We also heard a rant from Mr Raffan about the fact that all those things were not appropriate subjects for the debate. Mr Raffan cited the interesting example of the situation of Fife Council, which does not surprise me, as such situations are occurring across the board. Last Friday, COSLA estimated that an extra £300 million is required by local authorities to meet the current policy commitments that central Government has allocated to them, which is not included in the spending settlement. Mr Raffan says all these things on the record, but nothing happens. We are not tackling problems such as the fact that Fife Council or Perth and Kinross Council, or whichever local authority it is, is having difficulty in meeting its requirements in relation to its spending commitments. Such issues are thrown into the debate—the problems that are expressed and the difficulties that are highlighted—but the Liberal Democrats have delivered nothing to address them in this spending settlement. Mr Raffan also argued against east coast rail electrification. I was not at the Finance Committee meeting yesterday because I was at Scottish question time, a rather sad and lamentable occasion at Westminster. Who was arguing there for east coast electrification? Malcolm Bruce, the Liberal Democrat MP for Gordon. The Liberal Democrats had better establish some consistency, both in their arguments between themselves in this Parliament and in their arguments with their group at Westminster. They are fighting one argument at Westminster and a totally different argument in Scotland. That brings us to the nub of what we get from the Liberal Democrats in terms of spending priorities next week. I am criticised for arguing that resources should be allocated to abolishing tuition fees. I am attacked not by the Minister for Finance—I might have expected that, because at least he has a manifesto commitment that would support it—but by the Liberal Democrats. What on earth is left of the principle of the Liberal Democrat commitment to abolish tuition fees? Another unanswered question has arisen from today's debate. Andrew Wilson put it to Malcolm Chisholm, to Des McNulty and to George Lyon, without receiving a definitive answer from any of them. If the Barnett formula is about expenditure convergence, do those three distinguished parliamentarians believe that Scotland's expenditure on key public services is right today or right at the end of the Barnett formula process? We do not have an answer to that. Perhaps some clarity from each of those people would help to inform the debate on the patterns of Scottish public expenditure and what is right and appropriate. It is important that in this debate we set a clear vision for Scotland—a vision of which the Executive is bereft. We must raise the sights of Scotland and have ambitions about the type of public services that we want, the type of business environment that we want and the type of quality of life that we want for people. We must examine the public purse with greater imagination than this Executive has been prepared to show so far, to work out how we can leverage more value out of it and put that into our key services. So far, we have not had a word of that from the Executive. These are issues that we raised well in advance of the election to stimulate debate. We need to hear more about taking responsibility for the finances of Scotland and the Scottish Parliament. That is why we want to go down the route of fiscal autonomy—to give this Parliament proper power and proper control over our affairs. By doing that, we would bring the honesty and transparency to this debate that the Government's report on expenditure and revenue in Scotland and the minister's statement fail to deliver. What the minister will not say is that his budget—what he is doing to local authorities—is not creating a uniform, stable environment for everybody, but placing the burden of funding this Government's proposals on the council tax payer. COSLA has highlighted that, and the minister should have the honesty to make it clear to Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "Dr Simpson is welcome to put those points on the record, but he should also have said that in the figures from 1996-97 to 1997-98— the first year of the Labour Government at Westminster—there was a real-terms cut in the health budget. That completes the information that should be put on the record.

In this debate, a lot has hinged on whether we are spending enough in Scotland. We have heard different views from several different sources in the Parliament. The clearest and sharpest differences of view have come from Liberal Democrat members. Ian Jenkins made a most revealing statement, a moment ago, in which he said that he thought that much more money should be spent. We also heard a rant from Mr Raffan about the fact that all those things were not appropriate subjects for the debate.

Mr Raffan cited the interesting example of the situation of Fife Council, which does not surprise me, as such situations are occurring across the board. Last Friday, COSLA estimated that an extra £300 million is required by local authorities to meet the current policy commitments that central Government has allocated to them, which is not included in the spending settlement. Mr Raffan says all these things on the record, but nothing happens. We are not tackling problems such as the fact that Fife Council or Perth and Kinross Council, or whichever local authority it is, is having difficulty in meeting its requirements in relation to its spending commitments. Such issues are thrown into the debate—the problems that are expressed and the difficulties that are highlighted—but the Liberal Democrats have delivered nothing to address them in this spending settlement.

Mr Raffan also argued against east coast rail electrification. I was not at the Finance Committee meeting yesterday because I was at Scottish question time, a rather sad and lamentable occasion at Westminster. Who was arguing there for east coast electrification? Malcolm Bruce, the Liberal Democrat MP for Gordon. The Liberal Democrats had better establish some consistency, both in their arguments between themselves in this Parliament and in their arguments with their group at Westminster. They are fighting one argument at Westminster and a totally different argument in Scotland.

That brings us to the nub of what we get from the Liberal Democrats in terms of spending priorities next week. I am criticised for arguing that resources should be allocated to abolishing tuition fees. I am attacked not by the Minister for Finance—I might have expected that, because at least he has a manifesto commitment that would support it—but by the Liberal Democrats. What on earth is left of the principle of the Liberal Democrat commitment to abolish tuition fees?

Another unanswered question has arisen from today's debate. Andrew Wilson put it to Malcolm Chisholm, to Des McNulty and to George Lyon, without receiving a definitive answer from any of them. If the Barnett formula is about expenditure

convergence, do those three distinguished parliamentarians believe that Scotland's expenditure on key public services is right today or right at the end of the Barnett formula process? We do not have an answer to that. Perhaps some clarity from each of those people would help to inform the debate on the patterns of Scottish public expenditure and what is right and appropriate.

It is important that in this debate we set a clear vision for Scotland—a vision of which the Executive is bereft. We must raise the sights of Scotland and have ambitions about the type of public services that we want, the type of business environment that we want and the type of quality of life that we want for people. We must examine the public purse with greater imagination than this Executive has been prepared to show so far, to work out how we can leverage more value out of it and put that into our key services. So far, we have not had a word of that from the Executive. These are issues that we raised well in advance of the election to stimulate debate.

We need to hear more about taking responsibility for the finances of Scotland and the Scottish Parliament. That is why we want to go down the route of fiscal autonomy—to give this Parliament proper power and proper control over our affairs. By doing that, we would bring the honesty and transparency to this debate that the Government's report on expenditure and revenue in Scotland and the minister's statement fail to deliver. What the minister will not say is that his budget—what he is doing to local authorities—is not creating a uniform, stable environment for everybody, but placing the burden of funding this Government's proposals on the council tax payer. COSLA has highlighted that, and the minister should have the honesty to make it clear to Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:24:23.7026612+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C714089", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27231, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 487.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 487.0, "ID": 27231, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 494.0, "ContributionID": 714089, "EditedText": "On a point of order. Last week at question time, I raised the issue of the Cubie report on student finance, the fact that Parliament had decided to establish the inquiry and that it was due to report to Parliament. Tomorrow, Parliament meets for the last time before Christmas and the report is to be published on 21 December. Has the Executive said to you when we will have an opportunity to debate the report or have a statement on it? I notice in this morning's business bulletin that in the provisional business for the first week after the recess there is no mention of the subject in the Government's programme.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. Last week at question time, I raised the issue of the Cubie report on student finance, the fact that Parliament had decided to establish the inquiry and that it was due to report to Parliament. Tomorrow, Parliament meets for the last time before Christmas and the report is to be published on 21 December. Has the Executive said to you when we will have an opportunity to debate the report or have a statement on it? I notice in this morning's business bulletin that in the provisional business for the first week after the recess there is no mention of the subject in the Government's programme.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:25:39.4616009+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C713876", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 50.0, "ContributionID": 713876, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:21:23.9742649+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C713899", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Budget (2000-01)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27228, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 27228, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 96.0, "ContributionID": 713899, "EditedText": "He should sit down then.", "EditedTextHTML": "He should sit down then.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:21:23.9742649+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1783E59P270C714162", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27234, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 650.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 650.0, "ID": 27234, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Baillie, Jackie", "ID": 1783, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumbarton" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Jackie Baillie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Communities (Jackie Baillie): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 662.0, "ContributionID": 714162, "EditedText": "On a point of order.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order.

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" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:27:39.0629519+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1783E59P270C714172", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27234, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 650.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 650.0, "ID": 27234, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Baillie, Jackie", "ID": 1783, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumbarton" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Jackie Baillie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Jackie Baillie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 680.0, "ContributionID": 714172, "EditedText": "Because the wee light keeps flashing when I press no.", "EditedTextHTML": "Because the wee light keeps flashing when I press no.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:27:39.0629519+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1857E136P222C714113", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Dec 1999", "ID": 4199 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27231, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 487.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 487.0, "ID": 27231, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeill, Pauline", "ID": 1857, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Kelvin" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Pauline McNeill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Pauline McNeill: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 554.0, "ContributionID": 714113, "EditedText": "On a point of order.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:26:39.889062+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C713852", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pollokshaws Sports Centre", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27225, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 636.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 636.0, "ID": 27225, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 697.0, "ContributionID": 713852, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:00:39.6991441+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C713539", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Waste Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27189, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 19.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 19.0, "ID": 27189, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment (Sarah Boyack): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 23.0, "ContributionID": 713539, "EditedText": "I am glad that members have made it to the chamber this morning. I know that waste is not as high up the agenda as housing, education, health and transport, but we must face up to its links with all those issues. Over the years to come, we must address the issue effectively, as a political priority. This statement is intended to start off that process. In our everyday lives, all of us produce waste—a staggering amount of it. In Scotland alone, we produce around 3 million tonnes of household waste a year. That is more than half a tonne for every person. Put another way, every one of us puts something like 10 times our weight in our dustbins every year. Shops and offices produce another 2 million tonnes, and industries another 7 million tonnes per year. The cost of dealing with waste is huge—much greater than it needs to be. If we can cut down the amount of waste we create, we can save money and, at the same time—which is hugely important—reduce the harm we do to the environment. Waste means that we are using natural resources that we could have saved. Everything we throw away represents a waste of resources. Waste going to landfill also means risks for the environment. As waste disintegrates, it produces polluted water, which can pollute watercourses if it is not controlled. Waste also produces gases, mainly methane, which contributes to air pollution and climate change. In addition, the transportation of waste when it is collected and disposed of uses significant amounts of energy and produces carbon dioxide. We cannot go on wasting resources as we do now. Our programme for government commits us to working for the efficient use of waste and resources. A radical approach to waste is a central component of our emerging strategy for sustainable development. A raft of legislation that has already been agreed to, or is in process in Europe, will require us to change. I cannot pretend that Scotland is leading the field on this matter. We are a long way behind our counterparts in Europe. We need a systematic approach to tackle the problem. The Scottish Environment Protection Agency has produced a national waste strategy for Scotland, which gives us that. I hope that members will have the time to read it and consider its local implications. When the Executive published \"Making it work together\" in September, we promised to adopt a national waste strategy by the end of the year. I am pleased that my statement today effectively means that we are adopting SEPA's national strategy for waste. It has given us a framework for action and a document against which we can measure our progress. It sets out a number of key principles, which we must follow. We should minimise our waste. If we cannot minimise it, we should re-use things rather than throw them away. If we are forced to dispose of things, we should seek to recover value from them through recycling, composting or energy recovery. Disposal of waste to landfill should be an option only if none of the other options is possible. At the heart of the strategy is the proposal that area waste plans should be prepared by groups of local authorities working with enterprise agencies and consulting waste producers and the waste industry. Eleven areas are proposed, most of which cover several local authority areas. The groups will plan how waste should be dealt with in their areas, and SEPA will facilitate that work. Grouping local authorities should help to create economies of scale and enable the planning of joint waste facilities when that is the best way to proceed. Participation in the waste area strategy will be voluntary, but I hope that all local authorities will participate in a positive spirit. They may want to group themselves in combinations different from those suggested by SEPA. That is their choice, but I want early progress. I am inviting local authorities to complete their first area waste plans by the end of next year. If satisfactory progress is not made by then, we may have to consider imposing statutory requirements for the plans to be produced. Planning authorities will also be expected to adopt structure and local plans that are in line with the agreed waste plans. This strategy will set out targets that we are under a legal obligation to meet. They include targets for recycling packaging and restrictions on landfill. The strategy also suggests several voluntary targets, for example reduction of industrial and municipal waste. Further targets for recycling of household waste and construction and demolition waste will be developed following research. In Scotland, we currently rely almost exclusively on landfill sites to dispose of waste. Many of our sites are old-fashioned and in need of modernisation. We are currently consulting about how we should implement the EC landfill directive, which sets out targets for the amount of biodegradable municipal waste sent to landfill. The first of those targets is that by 2006 we must reduce the amount of biodegradable municipal waste going to landfill to three quarters of what went to landfill in 1995. We all know that none of the ways of disposing of waste is particularly popular. My postbag and, I suspect, those of other members is testament to that. People who live near landfill sites often complain about the problems that they can cause, although they should be minimised through proper management and effective regulation. Other people are concerned about incinerators. Our strategy makes it clear that, on present trends, several major treatment facilities or a larger number of smaller facilities will need to be developed in Scotland. The strategy does not specify what sort of facilities should be provided— that will be a decision for local authorities. We must be clear that if the targets that we have to meet under the landfill directive cannot be achieved through waste minimisation, the development of composting, recycling and recovery facilities, we will not have any option but to pursue the development of some large incineration plants. That is what we face. If we produce waste, we must deal with it. The more we can minimise waste, or re-use and recycle it, the less we will have to deal with it through landfill or incineration. We must move away from our existing practices. A move away from our reliance on landfill will cost money. The Scottish Executive has had discussions with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities and agreed that, in the first instance, additional local authority expenditure will be required from next year for preparatory and planning work on implementing the strategy. I am pleased to announce that £2.5 million per annum will be available for this, starting next April. I have also announced plans for extra funding for SEPA in future years, to allow it to increase its work on implementation of the national waste strategy. We are working in partnership with SEPA, COSLA and others to identify the full implications of the strategy, in which SEPA proposes a number of changes that might require primary legislation. I will consider those carefully before deciding whether to recommend them to my colleagues and Parliament. We are looking for change from local authorities and commercial and industrial waste producers, but we need to change our attitudes as private individuals. We are probably all guilty of throwing things away without a thought: a complaint that I frequently hear is that the dustbins that local authorities provide are not big enough.We have to change our attitude. Education has a role to play in letting our children grow up with better habits than we have. However, we have to change everyone's awareness of the waste that they produce. We cannot wait until the next generation. Our landfill directive targets must be reached. One of the commonest complaints in my postbag is about the lack of recycling facilities. There is not enough recycling in Scotland. Many local authorities have tried to get schemes off the ground but given up when they have been unable to find markets for the materials they have collected. We are trying to do something about that. In the summer, I was delighted to launch a new initiative, the recycling market development project, which is aimed at demonstrating the value of materials produced from recycled waste in Scotland. We cannot make much progress on recycling unless we have the facilities to separate out waste. Last month, I was pleased to be at the opening of Glasgow's new materials recycling facility at Polmadie, which is the first facility in Scotland that deals with separated household waste so that it can be recycled. It is part of Glasgow City Council's integrated recycling programme. I hope that the scheme will be the first of many in Scotland. It is clear that SEPA's national waste strategy is only the framework for major change that requires action from a large number of actors. We are only at the beginning of delivering that national waste strategy and we need to do a great deal of work before we can reach our targets. The Executive is committed to playing its part, but change can be achieved only through partnership. I want to work with SEPA, local authorities, the waste management industry, waste producers, members of the public and the voluntary sector to tackle waste in a radical way that will not leave a harmful legacy for the future.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am glad that members have made it to the chamber this morning. I know that waste is not as high up the agenda as housing, education, health and transport, but we must face up to its links with all those issues. Over the years to come, we must address the issue effectively, as a political priority. This statement is intended to start off that process.

In our everyday lives, all of us produce waste—a staggering amount of it. In Scotland alone, we produce around 3 million tonnes of household waste a year. That is more than half a tonne for every person. Put another way, every one of us puts something like 10 times our weight in our dustbins every year. Shops and offices produce another 2 million tonnes, and industries another 7 million tonnes per year. The cost of dealing with waste is huge—much greater than it needs to be. If we can cut down the amount of waste we create, we can save money and, at the same time—which is hugely important—reduce the harm we do to the environment.

Waste means that we are using natural resources that we could have saved. Everything we throw away represents a waste of resources. Waste going to landfill also means risks for the environment. As waste disintegrates, it produces polluted water, which can pollute watercourses if it is not controlled. Waste also produces gases, mainly methane, which contributes to air pollution and climate change. In addition, the transportation of waste when it is collected and disposed of uses significant amounts of energy and produces carbon dioxide.

We cannot go on wasting resources as we do now. Our programme for government commits us to working for the efficient use of waste and resources. A radical approach to waste is a central component of our emerging strategy for sustainable development. A raft of legislation that has already been agreed to, or is in process in Europe, will require us to change. I cannot pretend that Scotland is leading the field on this matter. We are a long way behind our counterparts in Europe.

We need a systematic approach to tackle the problem. The Scottish Environment Protection

Agency has produced a national waste strategy for Scotland, which gives us that. I hope that members will have the time to read it and consider its local implications.

When the Executive published \"Making it work together\" in September, we promised to adopt a national waste strategy by the end of the year. I am pleased that my statement today effectively means that we are adopting SEPA's national strategy for waste. It has given us a framework for action and a document against which we can measure our progress. It sets out a number of key principles, which we must follow.

We should minimise our waste. If we cannot minimise it, we should re-use things rather than throw them away. If we are forced to dispose of things, we should seek to recover value from them through recycling, composting or energy recovery. Disposal of waste to landfill should be an option only if none of the other options is possible.

At the heart of the strategy is the proposal that area waste plans should be prepared by groups of local authorities working with enterprise agencies and consulting waste producers and the waste industry. Eleven areas are proposed, most of which cover several local authority areas. The groups will plan how waste should be dealt with in their areas, and SEPA will facilitate that work. Grouping local authorities should help to create economies of scale and enable the planning of joint waste facilities when that is the best way to proceed.

Participation in the waste area strategy will be voluntary, but I hope that all local authorities will participate in a positive spirit. They may want to group themselves in combinations different from those suggested by SEPA. That is their choice, but I want early progress. I am inviting local authorities to complete their first area waste plans by the end of next year. If satisfactory progress is not made by then, we may have to consider imposing statutory requirements for the plans to be produced. Planning authorities will also be expected to adopt structure and local plans that are in line with the agreed waste plans.

This strategy will set out targets that we are under a legal obligation to meet. They include targets for recycling packaging and restrictions on landfill. The strategy also suggests several voluntary targets, for example reduction of industrial and municipal waste. Further targets for recycling of household waste and construction and demolition waste will be developed following research.

In Scotland, we currently rely almost exclusively on landfill sites to dispose of waste. Many of our sites are old-fashioned and in need of modernisation. We are currently consulting about how we should implement the EC landfill directive, which sets out targets for the amount of biodegradable municipal waste sent to landfill. The first of those targets is that by 2006 we must reduce the amount of biodegradable municipal waste going to landfill to three quarters of what went to landfill in 1995.

We all know that none of the ways of disposing of waste is particularly popular. My postbag and, I suspect, those of other members is testament to that. People who live near landfill sites often complain about the problems that they can cause, although they should be minimised through proper management and effective regulation. Other people are concerned about incinerators.

Our strategy makes it clear that, on present trends, several major treatment facilities or a larger number of smaller facilities will need to be developed in Scotland. The strategy does not specify what sort of facilities should be provided— that will be a decision for local authorities.

We must be clear that if the targets that we have to meet under the landfill directive cannot be achieved through waste minimisation, the development of composting, recycling and recovery facilities, we will not have any option but to pursue the development of some large incineration plants. That is what we face. If we produce waste, we must deal with it. The more we can minimise waste, or re-use and recycle it, the less we will have to deal with it through landfill or incineration.

We must move away from our existing practices. A move away from our reliance on landfill will cost money. The Scottish Executive has had discussions with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities and agreed that, in the first instance, additional local authority expenditure will be required from next year for preparatory and planning work on implementing the strategy. I am pleased to announce that £2.5 million per annum will be available for this, starting next April. I have also announced plans for extra funding for SEPA in future years, to allow it to increase its work on implementation of the national waste strategy.

We are working in partnership with SEPA, COSLA and others to identify the full implications of the strategy, in which SEPA proposes a number of changes that might require primary legislation. I will consider those carefully before deciding whether to recommend them to my colleagues and Parliament.

We are looking for change from local authorities and commercial and industrial waste producers, but we need to change our attitudes as private individuals. We are probably all guilty of throwing things away without a thought: a complaint that I frequently hear is that the dustbins that local

authorities provide are not big enough.

We have to change our attitude. Education has a role to play in letting our children grow up with better habits than we have. However, we have to change everyone's awareness of the waste that they produce. We cannot wait until the next generation. Our landfill directive targets must be reached.

One of the commonest complaints in my postbag is about the lack of recycling facilities. There is not enough recycling in Scotland. Many local authorities have tried to get schemes off the ground but given up when they have been unable to find markets for the materials they have collected. We are trying to do something about that.

In the summer, I was delighted to launch a new initiative, the recycling market development project, which is aimed at demonstrating the value of materials produced from recycled waste in Scotland.

We cannot make much progress on recycling unless we have the facilities to separate out waste. Last month, I was pleased to be at the opening of Glasgow's new materials recycling facility at Polmadie, which is the first facility in Scotland that deals with separated household waste so that it can be recycled. It is part of Glasgow City Council's integrated recycling programme. I hope that the scheme will be the first of many in Scotland.

It is clear that SEPA's national waste strategy is only the framework for major change that requires action from a large number of actors. We are only at the beginning of delivering that national waste strategy and we need to do a great deal of work before we can reach our targets.

The Executive is committed to playing its part, but change can be achieved only through partnership. I want to work with SEPA, local authorities, the waste management industry, waste producers, members of the public and the voluntary sector to tackle waste in a radical way that will not leave a harmful legacy for the future.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:08.9207112+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C713542", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Waste Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27189, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 19.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 19.0, "ID": 27189, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 29.0, "ContributionID": 713542, "EditedText": "Members will not be surprised to hear that I do not agree with Mr MacAskill. He has raised the fact that the landfill tax is a reserved matter. While I am happy for him to do so, I think that the landfill tax is hugely important. One of the key points about our waste strategy is that people who produce waste must account for it and include the real costs of it in their operations. Landfill tax lets us do that. By allowing employers to reduce their national insurance contributions, we give them a practical benefit for focusing on reducing their waste. Extra money is going to SEPA and to local authorities. In addition to the resources that SEPA will have, it will increase its fees for monitoring and dealing with waste management applications. That will allow costs to be met and it is important. Local authorities need some extra resources to let them get on with their task, which is huge. I have no doubt that, in future years, we will examine further how local authorities can deal with their task. We need the economic instrument represented by the landfill tax to ensure that we can deliver practical reductions in waste creation. To give the example of construction and aggregates, a landfill tax pushes developers towards recycling materials. The benefits of that are a cut in the pressure on new aggregates quarrying and the re-use of materials in building. We need a critical mass so that the elements reinforce one another: economic instruments; the use of our national agency, SEPA; the positive actions that local authorities can bring to bear. That is the right approach.", "EditedTextHTML": "Members will not be surprised to hear that I do not agree with Mr MacAskill. He has raised the fact that the landfill tax is a reserved matter. While I am happy for him to do so, I think that the landfill tax is hugely important. One of the key points about our waste strategy is that people who produce waste must account for it and include the real costs of it in their operations. Landfill tax lets us do that. By allowing employers to reduce their national insurance contributions, we give them a practical benefit for focusing on reducing their waste.

Extra money is going to SEPA and to local authorities. In addition to the resources that SEPA will have, it will increase its fees for monitoring and dealing with waste management applications. That will allow costs to be met and it is important. Local authorities need some extra resources to let them get on with their task, which is huge. I have no doubt that, in future years, we will examine further how local authorities can deal with their task.

We need the economic instrument represented by the landfill tax to ensure that we can deliver practical reductions in waste creation. To give the example of construction and aggregates, a landfill tax pushes developers towards recycling materials. The benefits of that are a cut in the pressure on new aggregates quarrying and the re-use of materials in building. We need a critical mass so that the elements reinforce one another: economic instruments; the use of our national agency, SEPA; the positive actions that local authorities can bring to bear. That is the right approach.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:08.9207112+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C713546", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Waste Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27189, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 19.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 19.0, "ID": 27189, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 37.0, "ContributionID": 713546, "EditedText": "I agree with Mr Scott about targets. We are looking for further advice from SEPA about what would be realistic. We could have an aspirational target of 25 per cent, as has been mentioned in the past, but we are nowhere near meeting that. It comes back to the points made by Mr Tosh about local authorities being able to get to grips with recycling. This strategy is hugely ambitious and we are way behind our European counterparts. The challenge is to learn from what they and other countries have been able to do. The REMADE project, which involves recycling facilities, is informed by the experience of Seattle, where recycled waste provides economic benefit, as other products can be made from it. There are many key issues that need to be addressed in implementing this strategy. A more integrated approach, in which local authorities work with SEPA and waste producers, will allow us to deal with, dispose of and recycle waste intelligently—in an environmentally friendly and cost-effective way. We are not there yet, but I hope that the national waste strategy will begin that process. This is an issue that we must all address urgently.", "EditedTextHTML": "I agree with Mr Scott about targets. We are looking for further advice from SEPA about what would be realistic. We could have an aspirational target of 25 per cent, as has been mentioned in the past, but we are nowhere near meeting that. It comes back to the points made by Mr Tosh about local authorities being able to get to grips with recycling. This strategy is hugely ambitious and we are way behind our European counterparts. The challenge is to learn from what they and other countries have been able to do. The REMADE project, which involves recycling facilities, is informed by the experience of Seattle, where recycled waste provides economic benefit, as other products can be made from it.

There are many key issues that need to be addressed in implementing this strategy. A more integrated approach, in which local authorities work with SEPA and waste producers, will allow us to deal with, dispose of and recycle waste intelligently—in an environmentally friendly and cost-effective way. We are not there yet, but I hope that the national waste strategy will begin that process. This is an issue that we must all address urgently.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:08.9207112+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C713554", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Waste Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27189, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 19.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 19.0, "ID": 27189, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 53.0, "ContributionID": 713554, "EditedText": "I will note the comments that have been made about that planning application, but—as Mr Fergusson will understand—I will not comment on it directly as it will have to be considered by Scottish ministers. Mr Fergusson has raised an important question about the proximity principle. How does that principle apply in rural areas? If in urban areas waste has to be disposed of because we have not managed to recycle it or to minimise the amount being created, it may be possible to carry it over relatively short distances. In rural areas, however, there is a particular problem of economies of scale. There are no easy solutions to that: that is why we need to emphasise the importance of waste minimisation and recycling and why I want local authorities to get together to find the most cost-effective way of tackling waste management. In rural areas, the proximity principle is more difficult to apply and must be weighed up against landscape and environmental issues. Mr Fergusson can rest assured that, if there was a simple fix, I would be recommending it. This is an issue that every local authority will have to wrestle with, unless we begin to tackle waste minimisation, re-use and recycling.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will note the comments that have been made about that planning application, but—as Mr Fergusson will understand—I will not comment on it directly as it will have to be considered by Scottish ministers.

Mr Fergusson has raised an important question about the proximity principle. How does that principle apply in rural areas? If in urban areas waste has to be disposed of because we have not managed to recycle it or to minimise the amount being created, it may be possible to carry it over relatively short distances. In rural areas, however, there is a particular problem of economies of scale. There are no easy solutions to that: that is why we need to emphasise the importance of waste minimisation and recycling and why I want local authorities to get together to find the most cost-effective way of tackling waste management. In rural areas, the proximity principle is more difficult to apply and must be weighed up against landscape and environmental issues.

Mr Fergusson can rest assured that, if there was a simple fix, I would be recommending it. This is an issue that every local authority will have to wrestle with, unless we begin to tackle waste minimisation, re-use and recycling.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:08.9207112+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C713556", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Waste Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27189, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 19.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 19.0, "ID": 27189, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 57.0, "ContributionID": 713556, "EditedText": "SEPA acknowledges the problem with landfill sites that have been in existence for some time. I have received parliamentary questions and letters from several members on that issue. In addition to recovering an appropriate amount of money from waste operators to enable it to monitor effectively, SEPA is considering prioritising the monitoring of individual sites. Some sites—the older ones— clearly require more monitoring. Our standards are now higher than they were when those sites were created. Monitoring, its regularity and its prioritisation are important issues. SEPA has to make those judgments, taking into account local concerns. There must be dialogue and communication with local residents; SEPA is keen to improve that. As for the economics of recycling, I was hugely impressed this summer by the work of Scottish Conservation Projects in the east of Scotland, which it is managing to carry out because the deal was negotiated several years ago. The challenge is that the price of recycled materials goes up and down. By getting local authorities to work together, and with the fruits of the REMADE project, we hope to be able to stabilise the market and provide a much stronger economic incentive for recycling materials.", "EditedTextHTML": "SEPA acknowledges the problem with landfill sites that have been in existence for some time. I have received parliamentary questions and letters from several members on that issue. In addition to recovering an appropriate amount of money from waste operators to enable it to monitor effectively, SEPA is considering prioritising the monitoring of individual sites. Some sites—the older ones— clearly require more monitoring. Our standards are now higher than they were when those sites were created. Monitoring, its regularity and its prioritisation are important issues. SEPA has to make those judgments, taking into account local concerns. There must be dialogue and communication with local residents; SEPA is keen to improve that.

As for the economics of recycling, I was hugely impressed this summer by the work of Scottish Conservation Projects in the east of Scotland, which it is managing to carry out because the deal was negotiated several years ago. The challenge is that the price of recycled materials goes up and down. By getting local authorities to work together, and with the fruits of the REMADE project, we hope to be able to stabilise the market and provide a much stronger economic incentive for recycling materials.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:08.9207112+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C713559", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Waste Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27189, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 19.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 19.0, "ID": 27189, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 63.0, "ContributionID": 713559, "EditedText": "I take your point, Presiding Officer, and I will be brief. The question raises two issues. The first concerns existing landfill sites. I acknowledge what Dorothy-Grace Elder says about local people's concerns about the sites that are being operated. SEPA should consult people and ensure that waste operators are carrying out operations to the right standards. Any such exercise should be done transparently. The second issue touches on the future of landfill sites. We already have landfill sites; the question is what we can do now to prevent future landfill problems. Although that is partly an issue for SEPA, it raises the wider issue of the waste that society produces, which is a problem with no easy solutions.", "EditedTextHTML": "I take your point, Presiding Officer, and I will be brief. The question raises two issues. The first concerns existing landfill sites. I acknowledge what Dorothy-Grace Elder says about local people's concerns about the sites that are being operated. SEPA should consult people and ensure that waste operators are carrying out operations to the right standards. Any such exercise should be done transparently.

The second issue touches on the future of landfill sites. We already have landfill sites; the question is what we can do now to prevent future landfill problems. Although that is partly an issue for SEPA, it raises the wider issue of the waste that society produces, which is a problem with no easy solutions.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:08.9207112+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C713677", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27196, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27197, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 258.0, "QuestionHeading": "Roads (A75)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27203, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 304.0, "DisplayOrder": 304.0, "ID": 27203, "ParentID": 27197 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 313.0, "ContributionID": 713677, "EditedText": "It is important that we get the action plan right and that we identify the correct way forward. I am keen to ensure that, on that road and on many others in Scotland, we make the right decisions. We do not have enough resources to do everything, but I am keen to take the views of Mr Morgan and those of my colleague Elaine Murray, who has talked to me about this issue. I know that the A75 is a matter of great concern in Mr Morgan's area and I hope that we will be able to produce a finalised plan soon.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is important that we get the action plan right and that we identify the correct way forward. I am keen to ensure that, on that road and on many others in Scotland, we make the right decisions. We do not have enough resources to do everything, but I am keen to take the views of Mr Morgan and those of my colleague Elaine Murray, who has talked to me about this issue. I know that the A75 is a matter of great concern in Mr Morgan's area and I hope that we will be able to produce a finalised plan soon.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:08.9207112+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1756E184P464C713687", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27196, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27197, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 258.0, "QuestionHeading": "Hill Farming", "QuestionHeadingID": 27206, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 333.0, "DisplayOrder": 333.0, "ID": 27206, "ParentID": 27197 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Grahame, Christine", "ID": 1756, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Christine Grahame", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Christine Grahame: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 336.0, "ContributionID": 713687, "EditedText": "I thank the minister for his answer. Is he aware that Scottish Borders Enterprise and Scottish Borders Council are financing a feasibility study into establishing a meat processing plant in the Borders, with estimated capacity for 500 sheep a day? Does he agree that locating such a plant in the Borders would allow the Galashiels abattoir to be utilised fully, with the possibility of the Hawick abattoir being reopened? Consequentially, that would allow the marketing of products as Borders lamb. Does the minister agree that such action would have major economic benefits to farmers and to the Borders, and will he confirm that the Executive will assist with the necessary capital funding if the report, which is due to be published in March, makes a positive recommendation?", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the minister for his answer. Is he aware that Scottish Borders Enterprise and Scottish Borders Council are financing a feasibility study into establishing a meat processing plant in the Borders, with estimated capacity for 500 sheep a day? Does he agree that locating such a plant in the Borders would allow the Galashiels abattoir to be utilised fully, with the possibility of the Hawick abattoir being reopened? Consequentially, that would allow the marketing of products as Borders lamb.

Does the minister agree that such action would have major economic benefits to farmers and to the Borders, and will he confirm that the Executive will assist with the necessary capital funding if the report, which is due to be published in March, makes a positive recommendation?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:00:47.4376059+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C713705", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27196, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27197, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 258.0, "QuestionHeading": "Airport Rail Links", "QuestionHeadingID": 27211, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 372.0, "DisplayOrder": 372.0, "ID": 27211, "ParentID": 27197 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 377.0, "ContributionID": 713705, "EditedText": "I am happy to remind Mr MacAskill that air passenger duty is a reserved matter. I am keen to ensure that the Scottish Executive takes forward the issue of improving access to airports. I do not know whether Mr MacAskill is aware of the current Scottish airports study, which will examine our airports in terms of the next 30 years. Access and surface links will be examined in that study. I expect to take forward its key recommendations to ensure that we improve access to airports, as we did only two weeks ago through the new service linking passenger rail services from the north of Scotland via the Inverkeithing airport link, which is now running regularly.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am happy to remind Mr MacAskill that air passenger duty is a reserved matter. I am keen to ensure that the Scottish Executive takes forward the issue of improving access to airports. I do not know whether Mr MacAskill is aware of the current Scottish airports study, which will examine our airports in terms of the next 30 years. Access and surface links will be examined in that study. I expect to take forward its key recommendations to ensure that we improve access to airports, as we did only two weeks ago through the new service linking passenger rail services from the north of Scotland via the Inverkeithing airport link, which is now running regularly.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:14.3101891+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1773E197P503C713568", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Housing", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27190, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 27190, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hyslop, Fiona", "ID": 1773, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona Hyslop", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona Hyslop (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 83.0, "ContributionID": 713568, "EditedText": "I thank the minister for her statement and for the prospect of a full debate in the new year.The abolition of the board of Scottish Homes was in the Scottish National party's manifesto— interestingly, it was not in the Labour party's manifesto. Yet again, the minister plagiarises SNP policy. So much for the bonfire of the quangos— only Scottish Homes is affected. After two and a half years, I am pleased to note that the Minister for Communities has held to Labour's pre-election commitments, but does she agree that it is a pity that her colleagues have forgotten those commitments? It is a bit like having Guy Fawkes night in December. The minister said that abolishing Scottish Homes as a quango \"is not . . . a broadside at quangos in general\".Does that mean that the bonfire has fizzled out?On the other details in the minister's statement, does she agree that the single regulatory framework was in the SNP manifesto and not in the Labour party's? Does she further agree that the same performance standards on cross-tenure were in the SNP manifesto and not in the Labour party's? I am glad to see that she is coming round to the SNP's way of thinking. On a more constructive note on the right to buy, the minister did not specify how the proposals will affect smaller housing associations or what her plans are for compensating them. Can she confirm that there is no new money and that the 18,000 houses that she mentioned will come from a redirection of existing funds, so that there will be losers in some areas where planned houses will not be built? Members may know that the price of property that is bought under the right to buy can often be less than half the cost of building the same property. That could have a devastating impact on housing associations' investment programmes. Does the minister agree that, if she granted rights to one section of the community at the expense of another, she would be defeating what she is trying to achieve? Finally, is the minister aware that the finances in the feasibility study for the Glasgow transfer were calculated on diminishing the right to buy rather than extending it? What action is she taking to ensure that her prize stock transfer proposals will not collapse around her ears as lenders get cold feet because of her proposals?", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the minister for her statement and for the prospect of a

full debate in the new year.

The abolition of the board of Scottish Homes was in the Scottish National party's manifesto— interestingly, it was not in the Labour party's manifesto. Yet again, the minister plagiarises SNP policy. So much for the bonfire of the quangos— only Scottish Homes is affected. After two and a half years, I am pleased to note that the Minister for Communities has held to Labour's pre-election commitments, but does she agree that it is a pity that her colleagues have forgotten those commitments? It is a bit like having Guy Fawkes night in December.

The minister said that abolishing Scottish Homes as a quango

\"is not . . . a broadside at quangos in general\".

Does that mean that the bonfire has fizzled out?

On the other details in the minister's statement, does she agree that the single regulatory framework was in the SNP manifesto and not in the Labour party's? Does she further agree that the same performance standards on cross-tenure were in the SNP manifesto and not in the Labour party's? I am glad to see that she is coming round to the SNP's way of thinking.

On a more constructive note on the right to buy, the minister did not specify how the proposals will affect smaller housing associations or what her plans are for compensating them. Can she confirm that there is no new money and that the 18,000 houses that she mentioned will come from a redirection of existing funds, so that there will be losers in some areas where planned houses will not be built?

Members may know that the price of property that is bought under the right to buy can often be less than half the cost of building the same property. That could have a devastating impact on housing associations' investment programmes. Does the minister agree that, if she granted rights to one section of the community at the expense of another, she would be defeating what she is trying to achieve?

Finally, is the minister aware that the finances in the feasibility study for the Glasgow transfer were calculated on diminishing the right to buy rather than extending it? What action is she taking to ensure that her prize stock transfer proposals will not collapse around her ears as lenders get cold feet because of her proposals?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:00:34.116328+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1756E184P464C713770", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27222, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 511.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 511.0, "ID": 27222, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Grahame, Christine", "ID": 1756, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Christine Grahame", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 519.0, "ContributionID": 713770, "EditedText": "I will focus my comments, which I hope will be helpful, on proxy decision makers and the role of the courts. I welcome the opportunity to rationalise the law in this area, with the appointment of welfare attorneys, continuing attorneys and guardians and with the role of the public guardian. I say to Dr Richard Simpson that, under section 18(2), the sheriff has the power to place the welfare attorney under the supervision of the local authority. In addition, section 3(4)(a) provides for the appointment of a person as a safeguard. However, as the Law Society of Scotland pointed out, the bill makes no provision to deal with powers of attorney that existed before the enactment of the bill. I draw members' attention to the Law Society's submission that such powers of attorney should be registered within a specific period, that they should not be used until they are registered and that they should fall if they are not registered. The bill omits such measures. I welcome the fact that the bill's definitions of capacity and incapacity are flexible. I say to Ben Wallace that this is not a matter of absolutes. Rightly, the sheriff has great discretion, not only in hearing evidence, but in the kind of orders that he makes on recalling people. If I have time, I will deal with sheriffs, but that measure is welcome. Eric Clive raised points about the role of European law. I know that Mr Wallace mentioned that, too, but I am not sure whether he was referring to the Council of Europe's recommendations on the principles on the legal protection of incapable adults. Professor Clive said that the Council of Europe principles are reassuringly similar to the ones that lie behind the bill. In an interesting paper, which I am happy to provide the minister with if he does not have a copy, Professor Clive refers to the Hague conference on international law and the convention that will be signed—it is in final draft— dealing with incapable adults, their carers and officials when the laws of more than one country are involved. The conflict between laws should be noted—it would be good for Parliament to take account of that international legislation. Eric Clive also mentions a problem under section 60(1), which relates to the appointment of guardians and their extensive powers. His view—I have read it carefully and concur with it—is that this measure could cause difficulties when an adult recovers some capacity but there has not been time to vary the guardianship order. We could end up with a capable adult with a guardian. An amendment could take care of that, but it is another issue that the Minister for Justice should address. The Mental Welfare Commission has voiced concern about the fact that there is no right to appeal automatically against renewal of a guardianship order. It is also concerned—I share that concern—that the three-year appointment may be too onerous and put people off. I know that, in his response to the committee's report, the Minister for Justice addressed the fact that the sheriff could make an order for a shorter period, but I think that three years might become the norm. I have dealt with section 17 on continuing attorneys. I am glad that the minister mentioned the training of sheriffs. I would have liked him to go further and nominate sheriffs in this area. Perhaps that will come in due course. Will the Minister for Justice clarify where the Court of Session has exclusive jurisdiction? This morning, he mentioned areas where there is exclusive jurisdiction under section 45 and section 47. I want it made plain in the bill what is exclusive and where jurisdiction is not with the sheriff court. I would like a response from the Executive on legal aid. I want movement towards there being no means test for applications on behalf of an incapax under this bill, just as there are no means tests for some matters covered by the Mental Health (Scotland) Act 1984.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will focus my comments, which I hope will be helpful, on proxy decision makers and the role of the courts. I welcome the opportunity to rationalise the law in this area, with the appointment of welfare attorneys, continuing attorneys and guardians and with the role of the public guardian.

I say to Dr Richard Simpson that, under section 18(2), the sheriff has the power to place the welfare attorney under the supervision of the local authority. In addition, section 3(4)(a) provides for the appointment of a person as a safeguard. However, as the Law Society of Scotland pointed out, the bill makes no provision to deal with powers of attorney that existed before the enactment of the bill. I draw members' attention to the Law Society's submission that such powers of attorney should be registered within a specific period, that they should not be used until they are registered and that they should fall if they are not registered. The bill omits such measures.

I welcome the fact that the bill's definitions of capacity and incapacity are flexible. I say to Ben Wallace that this is not a matter of absolutes. Rightly, the sheriff has great discretion, not only in hearing evidence, but in the kind of orders that he makes on recalling people. If I have time, I will deal with sheriffs, but that measure is welcome.

Eric Clive raised points about the role of European law. I know that Mr Wallace mentioned that, too, but I am not sure whether he was referring to the Council of Europe's recommendations on the principles on the legal protection of incapable adults. Professor Clive said that the Council of Europe principles are reassuringly similar to the ones that lie behind the bill. In an interesting paper, which I am happy to provide the minister with if he does not have a copy, Professor Clive refers to the Hague conference on international law and the convention that will be signed—it is in final draft— dealing with incapable adults, their carers and officials when the laws of more than one country are involved. The conflict between laws should be noted—it would be good for Parliament to take account of that international legislation.

Eric Clive also mentions a problem under section 60(1), which relates to the appointment of guardians and their extensive powers. His view—I have read it carefully and concur with it—is that this measure could cause difficulties when an adult recovers some capacity but there has not been time to vary the guardianship order. We could end up with a capable adult with a guardian. An amendment could take care of that, but it is another issue that the Minister for Justice should address.

The Mental Welfare Commission has voiced concern about the fact that there is no right to appeal automatically against renewal of a guardianship order. It is also concerned—I share that concern—that the three-year appointment

may be too onerous and put people off. I know that, in his response to the committee's report, the Minister for Justice addressed the fact that the sheriff could make an order for a shorter period, but I think that three years might become the norm.

I have dealt with section 17 on continuing attorneys. I am glad that the minister mentioned the training of sheriffs. I would have liked him to go further and nominate sheriffs in this area. Perhaps that will come in due course.

Will the Minister for Justice clarify where the Court of Session has exclusive jurisdiction? This morning, he mentioned areas where there is exclusive jurisdiction under section 45 and section 47. I want it made plain in the bill what is exclusive and where jurisdiction is not with the sheriff court. I would like a response from the Executive on legal aid. I want movement towards there being no means test for applications on behalf of an incapax under this bill, just as there are no means tests for some matters covered by the Mental Health (Scotland) Act 1984.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:01:00.1970678+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1892E34P73C713532", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Thursday 9 December 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 27188, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 27188, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Fergusson, Alex", "ID": 1892, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Fergusson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Fergusson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 7.0, "ContributionID": 713532, "EditedText": "In view of the continuing French ban on British and Scottish beef, will the Presiding Officer ask the Minister for Rural Affairs to give an emergency statement in the chamber this afternoon to outline what further action he proposes to take?", "EditedTextHTML": "In view of the continuing French ban on British and Scottish beef, will the Presiding Officer ask the Minister for Rural Affairs to give an emergency statement in the chamber this afternoon to outline what further action he proposes to take?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.545081+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713533", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Thursday 9 December 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 27188, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 27188, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 9.0, "ContributionID": 713533, "EditedText": "I have had no requests for an emergency statement, but we have open questions this afternoon, and I would be surprised if the subject were not raised then.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have had no requests for an emergency statement, but we have open questions this afternoon, and I would be surprised if the subject were not raised then.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.545081+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2112E192P495C713534", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Thursday 9 December 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 27188, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 27188, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacAskill, Kenny", "ID": 2112, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenny MacAskill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Kenny MacAskill (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 11.0, "ContributionID": 713534, "EditedText": "On a point of order.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5607083+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713535", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Thursday 9 December 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 27188, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 27188, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 13.0, "ContributionID": 713535, "EditedText": "Is it the same one?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is it the same one?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5607083+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2112E192P495C713536", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Thursday 9 December 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 27188, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 27188, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacAskill, Kenny", "ID": 2112, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenny MacAskill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr MacAskill: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 15.0, "ContributionID": 713536, "EditedText": "No, it is a different one. My point of order relates to draft ministerial statements. There is a convention that ministerial statements are provided timeously to Opposition spokesmen. I was advised yesterday that Sarah Boyack's statement was not available, but that it would be delivered at 8.30 this morning. I duly arrived at 8.30 and awaited a copy of the statement, which was eventually delivered at 10 to nine. I understand that a copy was delivered to my friend Robin Harper at the same time. I appreciate that we had 40 minutes before the minister made her statement but, as the outside of the statement says, it contains approximately 1,600 words. If ministerial statements and the questions that follow are not to be simply a game of charades in which spokesmen and others have to pre-guess what the minister will say, there should be a ruling as to how much time should be provided prior to statements being made.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, it is a different one. My point of order relates to draft ministerial statements. There is a convention that ministerial statements are provided timeously to Opposition spokesmen. I was advised yesterday that Sarah Boyack's statement was not available, but that it would be delivered at 8.30 this morning. I duly arrived at

8.30 and awaited a copy of the statement, which was eventually delivered at 10 to nine. I understand that a copy was delivered to my friend Robin Harper at the same time. I appreciate that we had 40 minutes before the minister made her statement but, as the outside of the statement says, it contains approximately 1,600 words. If ministerial statements and the questions that follow are not to be simply a game of charades in which spokesmen and others have to pre-guess what the minister will say, there should be a ruling as to how much time should be provided prior to statements being made.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5607083+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713538", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Waste Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27189, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 19.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 19.0, "ID": 27189, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 20.0, "ContributionID": 713538, "EditedText": "The first item of business is a statement by Sarah Boyack on a national waste strategy. There will be 20 minutes of questions after the statement, so the statement should be heard without interruption.", "EditedTextHTML": "The first item of business is a statement by Sarah Boyack on a national waste strategy. There will be 20 minutes of questions after the statement, so the statement should be heard without interruption.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5607083+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713540", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Waste Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27189, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 19.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 19.0, "ID": 27189, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 25.0, "ContributionID": 713540, "EditedText": "As many members want to speak, I will give priority to those who were present for the whole of the statement.", "EditedTextHTML": "As many members want to speak, I will give priority to those who were present for the whole of the statement.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5607083+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C713543", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Waste Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27189, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 19.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 19.0, "ID": 27189, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Murray Tosh (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 31.0, "ContributionID": 713543, "EditedText": "I welcome the thrust of the minister's statement and wish to ask her about the substantial differences between paragraph 3.32 in the draft and the parallel section in the final report, on lack of investment. I welcome the £2.5 million for preparatory work, but where does the minister suggest councils should find the resources for new infrastructure to allow a switch from mixed waste collection to separate collections systems, which are not specifically mentioned in the new text? How will the Executive enable councils to afford the higher waste charges that the draft made clear they will face if they do not move towards separate collection systems and meet their recycling targets?Will the Executive confirm that today's statement drops SEPA's original proposal for ring-fencing local authority waste budgets? Has the minister diluted the draft SEPA strategy to the point of stultifying it, or is she simply passing enormous burdens to councils without resourcing them to carry those burdens?", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the thrust of the minister's statement and wish to ask her about the substantial differences between paragraph 3.32 in the draft and the parallel section in the final report, on lack of investment.

I welcome the £2.5 million for preparatory work, but where does the minister suggest councils should find the resources for new infrastructure to allow a switch from mixed waste collection to separate collections systems, which are not specifically mentioned in the new text? How will the Executive enable councils to afford the higher waste charges that the draft made clear they will face if they do not move towards separate collection systems and meet their recycling

targets?

Will the Executive confirm that today's statement drops SEPA's original proposal for ring-fencing local authority waste budgets? Has the minister diluted the draft SEPA strategy to the point of stultifying it, or is she simply passing enormous burdens to councils without resourcing them to carry those burdens?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5607083+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2188E70P92C713547", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Waste Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27189, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 19.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 19.0, "ID": 27189, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harper, Robin", "ID": 2188, "PartyName": "Scottish Green Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Green", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robin Harper", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robin Harper (Lothians) (Green): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 39.0, "ContributionID": 713547, "EditedText": "I broadly welcome the thrust of the strategy—I do not disagree with any of it—particularly the acknowledgement of waste minimisation and the value of recyclable materials, but hard-pressed local authorities may take the cheapest option and still end up setting fire to most of the waste. Does the minister agree that we need greater input from Government, in terms of funding, if local authorities are to be able to make the best choice—for waste minimisation and recycling as opposed to incineration?", "EditedTextHTML": "I broadly welcome the thrust of the strategy—I do not disagree with any of it—particularly the acknowledgement of waste minimisation and the value of recyclable materials, but hard-pressed local authorities may take the cheapest option and still end up setting fire to most of the waste.

Does the minister agree that we need greater input from Government, in terms of funding, if local authorities are to be able to make the best choice—for waste minimisation and recycling as opposed to incineration?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5607083+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1892E34P73C713553", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Waste Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27189, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 19.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 19.0, "ID": 27189, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Fergusson, Alex", "ID": 1892, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Fergusson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Fergusson (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 51.0, "ContributionID": 713553, "EditedText": "Like everyone else, I broadly welcome the strategy that has been outlined in today's statement. I draw the minister's attention to the paragraph that highlights the proximity principle for waste disposal. It rules out lengthy transport of waste across the country, and states that wastes should be managed as close as possible to their point of origin. Will the minister look into the planning application that Dumfries and Galloway Council has received in relation to a waste-burning plant at Newton Stewart, with a view to calling it in and ensuring that any decision on it is taken in the light of her statement today?", "EditedTextHTML": "Like everyone else, I broadly welcome the strategy that has been outlined in today's statement. I draw the minister's attention to the paragraph that highlights the proximity principle for waste disposal. It rules out lengthy transport of waste across the country, and states that wastes should be managed as close as possible to their point of origin. Will the minister look into the planning application that Dumfries and Galloway Council has received in relation to a waste-burning plant at Newton Stewart, with a view to calling it in and ensuring that any decision on it is taken in the light of her statement today?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5607083+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2068E171P304C713560", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Waste Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27189, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 19.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 19.0, "ID": 27189, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stone, Jamie", "ID": 2068, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie Stone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 65.0, "ContributionID": 713560, "EditedText": "My question concerns the rail movement of waste. The minister will remember last week's spurious story about the closure of the line north of Inverness. Will she make representations to all agencies that waste should be moved by rail, as that will be an important part of any strategic approach?", "EditedTextHTML": "My question concerns the rail movement of waste. The minister will remember last week's spurious story about the closure of the line north of Inverness. Will she make representations to all agencies that waste should be moved by rail, as that will be an important part of any strategic approach?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5607083+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2123E103P242C713562", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Waste Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27189, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 19.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 19.0, "ID": 27189, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Chisholm, Malcolm", "ID": 2123, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh North and Leith" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Malcolm Chisholm", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 69.0, "ContributionID": 713562, "EditedText": "I welcome the minister's statement and merely seek clarification on targets. Is the initial 75 per cent reduction in landfill a hard-and-fast European target that must be delivered UK- wide? Where does Scotland stand in relation to that figure, which is for 1995 to 2006? Finally, how many recycling targets are there and are they simply a matter for this Parliament rather than Europe?", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the minister's statement and merely seek clarification on targets. Is the initial 75 per cent reduction in landfill a hard-and-fast European target that must be delivered UK- wide? Where does Scotland stand in relation to that figure, which is for 1995 to 2006? Finally, how many recycling targets are there and are they

simply a matter for this Parliament rather than Europe?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5607083+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C713564", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Waste Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27189, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 19.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 19.0, "ID": 27189, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr George Reid (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 73.0, "ContributionID": 713564, "EditedText": "The end of dumping human waste at sea has led to an increase in the spreading of such waste on land. Is the minister aware of the problems that that causes for villages such as Blairingone, which suffer not only the smell, but— as SEPA has said—the risk of pathogens being present? The regulations are widely unenforceable and, if spreading reaches maximum levels, waste can be spread up to 6 in high. The minister will know that Richard Simpson has had a question down on the subject for some time, which she has said she will answer as soon as possible. In view of her statement that she wants early progress, can the minister give some indication this morning that she will introduce measures to ensure that spreading is safe and regulated by controls that are enforceable?", "EditedTextHTML": "The end of dumping human waste at sea has led to an increase in the spreading of such waste on land. Is the minister aware of the problems that that causes for villages such as Blairingone, which suffer not only the smell, but— as SEPA has said—the risk of pathogens being present? The regulations are widely unenforceable and, if spreading reaches maximum levels, waste can be spread up to 6 in high.

The minister will know that Richard Simpson has had a question down on the subject for some time, which she has said she will answer as soon as possible. In view of her statement that she wants early progress, can the minister give some indication this morning that she will introduce measures to ensure that spreading is safe and regulated by controls that are enforceable?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5607083+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713566", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Waste Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27189, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 19.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 19.0, "ID": 27189, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 77.0, "ContributionID": 713566, "EditedText": "Despite the fact that I have allowed questions to overrun, five members were not called. I apologise to them.", "EditedTextHTML": "Despite the fact that I have allowed questions to overrun, five members were not called. I apologise to them.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5607083+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C713577", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Housing", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27190, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 27190, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 101.0, "ContributionID": 713577, "EditedText": "I am.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5607083+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C713567", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Housing", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27190, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 27190, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Communities (Ms Wendy Alexander): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 81.0, "ContributionID": 713567, "EditedText": "Three months ago, I confirmed the Executive's intention to publish a draft housing bill next year. I am pleased now to be able to outline some of the key elements of the bill. Today's statement sets out the future foundations for Scotland's social housing. The statement and the discussion papers that we published earlier this week will provide the basis for a full parliamentary debate early in the new year. Our housing proposals provide the foundations for a Scotland where everyone matters and where every community offers a range of warm, secure housing options—public and private, rented and owned, starter and sheltered homes. We have opted for a fundamental rethink of Scottish housing, because it is only by a new approach that we can end the situation whereby some Scottish children are born, their parents live and their grandparents die in damp houses. In earlier generations, it was Labour politicians in urban Scotland and Liberal politicians in rural Scotland who argued for a new and better way. That is how it should be in our time also. In a week in which we have seen shock health statistics about Glasgow, we should remember that it was the first ever Labour health minister, John Wheatley, who set out the legislative framework that led to the building of more than 100,000 new homes. We should be no less bold in finding new solutions for our time. The choices that we have are not only public versus private housing and security for tenants versus insecurity. The real choices are new investment versus no investment, tenant control versus municipal control and community renewal versus stagnation. This statement lays the groundwork for new solutions, which start with tenants. Scotland should no longer tolerate second-class social tenancies, rights or landlords. Earlier this week, we laid out in a discussion document our plans for a single social tenancy. We are offering Scottish tenants the best tenants' rights package ever. It offers new rights to succession, particularly for carers, new rights of consultation for tenants about decisions that affect their homes and discussion of new rights to exchange. By creating one common tenancy, we remove at a stroke the anxieties of all those who fear that community ownership might affect their tenancy rights. The right to buy will continue to be part of that new single social tenancy, but we know that changes are needed, and we shall make them. The starting point is to understand and accept what most Scots want. In 1965, less than 20 per cent of Scottish households were looking to buy their own home. Now, well over 80 per cent of households aspire to own their own home. We will reform the right to buy to make it right for the next century. We will introduce a factoring scheme for former right-to-buy tenants, we will protect more special needs housing from sale and we will cap discounts at £30,000. The discussion paper sets out our proposals in detail, but I would like to dwell on one important point that has come out of our work. Some commentators have expressed concern at the loss of socially rented houses in some rural areas through the right to buy. It is clear, however, that the underlying problem is the differences in availability of socially rented housing across Scotland: just 14 per cent of houses are available for social rent in Orkney, whereas 50 per cent are available in Glasgow. The shortage of socially rented housing in some areas, including rural areas, reflects the historic lack of investment in those areas, rather than the effect of the right to buy itself. I have asked Scottish Homes to review its expenditure in rural areas and to make proposals to help redress the imbalance. In the short term, I have also asked Scottish Homes to increase the resources available for investment in rural areas when it draws up its programme for next year. Over the longer term, a reordering of development priorities is required. Let me make clear to the chamber the opportunity that lies before us. What would it take to ensure that one in four homes in Orkney, the Western Isles, Aberdeenshire, Dumfries and Galloway, Perth and Kinross, Argyll and Bute, Moray, Highland and Scottish Borders was for rent? The answer is that it would take only 14,000 new rented homes. We have pledged to build 18,000 new homes over the next three years. Of course, not all those homes will be in rural areas— there are other priorities in urban areas, such as community care and homelessness—but the aspiration of a vibrant socially rented sector in all parts of Scotland is achievable. All social tenants deserve consistently high standards from housing management, so we will legislate for a single system of statutory regulation for all social landlords. The landlord functions of local authorities will also be subject to the same performance standards as apply to registered housing associations, and they will be regulated by the same body. We are committed to a more strategic role forlocal authorities. We will put local authorities in the lead in developing single housing plans for their areas. Local authorities should also have a greater say in the allocation of resources to other housing providers in their areas. Once the existing housing stock has been transferred—if that is what tenants choose—and there is no question of an in-built bias towards expenditure on their own stock, we believe that local authorities should be responsible for determining the priorities for all funding of housing in their areas. Local authorities will therefore have a much more direct involvement than at present in decisions on the £200 million of development funding resources currently made available through Scottish Homes. Those resources will be part of a transparent and identified budget for housing purposes, which will be designed to achieve the housing policy objectives of the Executive and of local authorities. Obviously, there will have to be a process of adjustment. We plan a range of checks and balances, and Scottish Homes has a vital monitoring role in that. That brings me to the future of Scottish Homes. Over the past 10 years, Scottish Homes has achieved a great deal, developing the housing association movement in Scotland, attracting around £1.3 billion of new private investment into social housing and empowering its own tenants by successfully transferring most of its stock to new social landlords. I pay tribute to the commitment, skills and expertise of its board members and staff over the past decade. They have nurtured community ownership, and their leadership has demonstrated that non-profit-making community- controlled local landlords across Scotland can both build homes for rent and access new investment. Scottish Homes has done pioneering work by demonstrating that housing is about more than bricks and mortar. It has supported the development of roles for local housing associations, which place them at the heart of their communities, whether through credit unions and services to older tenants or by providing workspaces. The new agenda for Scottish housing means a new organisational structure for Scottish Homes. We have concluded that Scottish Homes should cease to be a quango and should be converted into an executive agency of the Scottish Executive. In future, the chief executive will have a direct reporting line to ministers and, through that, accountability to this Parliament. The work of Scottish Homes will be steered by a management board, including two or three non-executive directors. The board will be led by the chief executive and will operate within a framework set by ministers. In that new challenging role, Scottish Homes will assume responsibility for the regulation and monitoring of all registered social landlords— whose number will be much swollen by community ownership—and also of the landlord functions of local authorities. There is a clear opportunity to broaden further the community regeneration role of Scottish Homes as a housing and communities agency, liaising with social inclusion partnerships and other local regeneration initiatives. The real expertise in using housing as an enabler of community regeneration lies within the existing regional structure of Scottish Homes. Scottish Homes will continue to be responsible for development funding until such time as local authorities cease to be major landlords in their own right and take over that budget. We want to implement those changes in a way that builds on the valuable work that has been done by Scottish Homes and which enables its staff to prosper in the new structure. I anticipate that the vast majority of Scottish Homes staff who transfer to the Scottish Executive will work in the new executive agency. However, some staff who undertake policy and related work in the headquarters of Scottish Homes could move directly into other parts of the Scottish Executive, to help to strengthen its policy capabilities. I want to make it clear that the decision has been taken for good housing and social inclusion policy reasons. It is not part of a broadside at quangos in general and, in practice, the vast majority of the staff of Scottish Homes will continue to do much the same type of work as at present, but in a different governance framework. I am today writing personally to all Scottish Homes staff to reassure them about that. We have had a number of debates in the chamber on other areas, notably on the scourge of homelessness and the policy and new resources required to tackle it. I have asked the homelessness task force to recommend its legislative priorities early in the new year and I will make a further announcement on those elements of the proposed housing bill in due course. Our ambition is to create strong and supportive communities across Scotland. We will deliver a radical housing bill, which will lay the firm foundations for creating a Scotland where everyone matters, whether they are tenants, owner-occupiers or people sleeping rough. Our vision for Scottish housing is one that any modern nation could be proud of. I commend the statement to members.", "EditedTextHTML": "Three months ago, I confirmed the Executive's intention to publish a draft housing bill next year. I am pleased now to be able to outline some of the key elements of the bill.

Today's statement sets out the future foundations for Scotland's social housing. The statement and the discussion papers that we published earlier this week will provide the basis for a full parliamentary debate early in the new year.

Our housing proposals provide the foundations for a Scotland where everyone matters and where every community offers a range of warm, secure housing options—public and private, rented and owned, starter and sheltered homes. We have opted for a fundamental rethink of Scottish housing, because it is only by a new approach that we can end the situation whereby some Scottish children are born, their parents live and their grandparents die in damp houses. In earlier generations, it was Labour politicians in urban Scotland and Liberal politicians in rural Scotland who argued for a new and better way. That is how it should be in our time also.

In a week in which we have seen shock health statistics about Glasgow, we should remember that it was the first ever Labour health minister, John Wheatley, who set out the legislative framework that led to the building of more than 100,000 new homes. We should be no less bold in finding new solutions for our time.

The choices that we have are not only public versus private housing and security for tenants versus insecurity. The real choices are new investment versus no investment, tenant control versus municipal control and community renewal versus stagnation.

This statement lays the groundwork for new solutions, which start with tenants. Scotland should no longer tolerate second-class social tenancies, rights or landlords. Earlier this week, we laid out in a discussion document our plans for a single social tenancy. We are offering Scottish tenants the best tenants' rights package ever. It offers new rights to succession, particularly for carers, new rights of consultation for tenants about decisions that affect their homes and discussion of new rights to exchange. By creating one common tenancy, we remove at a stroke the anxieties of all those who fear that community ownership might affect their tenancy rights. The right to buy will continue to be part of that new single social tenancy, but we know that changes are needed, and we shall make them.

The starting point is to understand and accept what most Scots want. In 1965, less than 20 per cent of Scottish households were looking to buy their own home. Now, well over 80 per cent of households aspire to own their own home. We will reform the right to buy to make it right for the next century. We will introduce a factoring scheme for former right-to-buy tenants, we will protect more special needs housing from sale and we will cap discounts at £30,000.

The discussion paper sets out our proposals in detail, but I would like to dwell on one important point that has come out of our work. Some commentators have expressed concern at the loss of socially rented houses in some rural areas through the right to buy. It is clear, however, that the underlying problem is the differences in availability of socially rented housing across Scotland: just 14 per cent of houses are available for social rent in Orkney, whereas 50 per cent are available in Glasgow.

The shortage of socially rented housing in some areas, including rural areas, reflects the historic lack of investment in those areas, rather than the effect of the right to buy itself. I have asked Scottish Homes to review its expenditure in rural areas and to make proposals to help redress the imbalance. In the short term, I have also asked Scottish Homes to increase the resources available for investment in rural areas when it draws up its programme for next year. Over the longer term, a reordering of development priorities is required.

Let me make clear to the chamber the opportunity that lies before us. What would it take to ensure that one in four homes in Orkney, the Western Isles, Aberdeenshire, Dumfries and Galloway, Perth and Kinross, Argyll and Bute, Moray, Highland and Scottish Borders was for rent? The answer is that it would take only 14,000 new rented homes. We have pledged to build 18,000 new homes over the next three years. Of course, not all those homes will be in rural areas— there are other priorities in urban areas, such as community care and homelessness—but the aspiration of a vibrant socially rented sector in all parts of Scotland is achievable.

All social tenants deserve consistently high standards from housing management, so we will legislate for a single system of statutory regulation for all social landlords. The landlord functions of local authorities will also be subject to the same performance standards as apply to registered housing associations, and they will be regulated by the same body.

We are committed to a more strategic role for

local authorities. We will put local authorities in the lead in developing single housing plans for their areas. Local authorities should also have a greater say in the allocation of resources to other housing providers in their areas. Once the existing housing stock has been transferred—if that is what tenants choose—and there is no question of an in-built bias towards expenditure on their own stock, we believe that local authorities should be responsible for determining the priorities for all funding of housing in their areas.

Local authorities will therefore have a much more direct involvement than at present in decisions on the £200 million of development funding resources currently made available through Scottish Homes. Those resources will be part of a transparent and identified budget for housing purposes, which will be designed to achieve the housing policy objectives of the Executive and of local authorities. Obviously, there will have to be a process of adjustment. We plan a range of checks and balances, and Scottish Homes has a vital monitoring role in that.

That brings me to the future of Scottish Homes. Over the past 10 years, Scottish Homes has achieved a great deal, developing the housing association movement in Scotland, attracting around £1.3 billion of new private investment into social housing and empowering its own tenants by successfully transferring most of its stock to new social landlords. I pay tribute to the commitment, skills and expertise of its board members and staff over the past decade. They have nurtured community ownership, and their leadership has demonstrated that non-profit-making community- controlled local landlords across Scotland can both build homes for rent and access new investment.

Scottish Homes has done pioneering work by demonstrating that housing is about more than bricks and mortar. It has supported the development of roles for local housing associations, which place them at the heart of their communities, whether through credit unions and services to older tenants or by providing workspaces.

The new agenda for Scottish housing means a new organisational structure for Scottish Homes. We have concluded that Scottish Homes should cease to be a quango and should be converted into an executive agency of the Scottish Executive. In future, the chief executive will have a direct reporting line to ministers and, through that, accountability to this Parliament. The work of Scottish Homes will be steered by a management board, including two or three non-executive directors. The board will be led by the chief executive and will operate within a framework set by ministers.

In that new challenging role, Scottish Homes will assume responsibility for the regulation and monitoring of all registered social landlords— whose number will be much swollen by community ownership—and also of the landlord functions of local authorities.

There is a clear opportunity to broaden further the community regeneration role of Scottish Homes as a housing and communities agency, liaising with social inclusion partnerships and other local regeneration initiatives. The real expertise in using housing as an enabler of community regeneration lies within the existing regional structure of Scottish Homes.

Scottish Homes will continue to be responsible for development funding until such time as local authorities cease to be major landlords in their own right and take over that budget.

We want to implement those changes in a way that builds on the valuable work that has been done by Scottish Homes and which enables its staff to prosper in the new structure. I anticipate that the vast majority of Scottish Homes staff who transfer to the Scottish Executive will work in the new executive agency. However, some staff who undertake policy and related work in the headquarters of Scottish Homes could move directly into other parts of the Scottish Executive, to help to strengthen its policy capabilities.

I want to make it clear that the decision has been taken for good housing and social inclusion policy reasons. It is not part of a broadside at quangos in general and, in practice, the vast majority of the staff of Scottish Homes will continue to do much the same type of work as at present, but in a different governance framework. I am today writing personally to all Scottish Homes staff to reassure them about that.

We have had a number of debates in the chamber on other areas, notably on the scourge of homelessness and the policy and new resources required to tackle it. I have asked the homelessness task force to recommend its legislative priorities early in the new year and I will make a further announcement on those elements of the proposed housing bill in due course.

Our ambition is to create strong and supportive communities across Scotland. We will deliver a radical housing bill, which will lay the firm foundations for creating a Scotland where everyone matters, whether they are tenants, owner-occupiers or people sleeping rough. Our vision for Scottish housing is one that any modern nation could be proud of.

I commend the statement to members.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5607083+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C713576", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Housing", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27190, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 27190, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 99.0, "ContributionID": 713576, "EditedText": "It is rather bizarre for Tommy Sheridan to accuse me of being ideologically driven when I thought that he was a revolutionary Marxist, but there we go.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is rather bizarre for Tommy Sheridan to accuse me of being ideologically driven when I thought that he was a revolutionary Marxist, but there we go.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5607083+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713570", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Housing", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27190, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 27190, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 87.0, "ContributionID": 713570, "EditedText": "I remind members that this is not a debate, but a question-and-answer session. Many members want to speak, but will have no opportunity to do so if we have long questions and answers.", "EditedTextHTML": "I remind members that this is not a debate, but a question-and-answer session. Many members want to speak, but will have no opportunity to do so if we have long questions and answers.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5607083+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C713580", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Housing", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27190, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 27190, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 107.0, "ContributionID": 713580, "EditedText": "I want to talk about the big issue. Tommy Sheridan talks about the need to invest in Glasgow housing. Let us talk about John Wheatley. When he was elected, he did not say, \"Let's do things the way they've always been done.\" Rather, he said, \"We need to do things differently. We need to build £8 cottages and we are going to go and talk about how we access the investment to do that.\" I believe that, 90 years on from his election to the city council in Glasgow, we need to show the same vision. The essential difference between—Interruption.", "EditedTextHTML": "I want to talk about the big issue. Tommy Sheridan talks about the need to invest in Glasgow housing. Let us talk about John Wheatley. When he was elected, he did not say, \"Let's do things the way they've always been done.\" Rather, he said, \"We need to do things differently. We need to build £8 cottages and we are going to go and talk about how we access the investment to do that.\" I believe that, 90 years on from his election to the city council in Glasgow, we need to show the same vision. The essential

difference between—[Interruption.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5607083+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713581", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Housing", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27190, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 27190, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 109.0, "ContributionID": 713581, "EditedText": "Mr Sheridan, you have asked a question and you must listen to the answer without interrupting.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Sheridan, you have asked a question and you must listen to the answer without interrupting.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5607083+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C713587", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Housing", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27190, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 27190, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 121.0, "ContributionID": 713587, "EditedText": "One difference between Alex Neil and me is that I do not think that we measure our success in terms of how much money I manage to lever out of Jack McConnell. As the success of Scottish Homes suggests, the joy of the community ownership model is its ability to leverage huge amounts of private investment into socially rented housing. That is the challenge which we face. We are, of course, closely in touch with colleagues as proposals on housing benefit emerge. We have always acknowledged that they are part of the welfare reform programme that is being pursued by the UK Government. Obviously, housing benefit affects housing subsidy, but it also affects incomes and the welfare reform proposals. We must stay closely in touch with on-going matters.", "EditedTextHTML": "One difference between Alex Neil and me is that I do not think that we measure our success in terms of how much money I manage to lever out of Jack McConnell. As the success of Scottish Homes suggests, the joy of the community ownership model is its ability to leverage huge amounts of private investment into socially rented housing. That is the challenge which we face.

We are, of course, closely in touch with colleagues as proposals on housing benefit emerge. We have always acknowledged that they are part of the welfare reform programme that is being pursued by the UK Government. Obviously, housing benefit affects housing subsidy, but it also affects incomes and the welfare reform proposals. We must stay closely in touch with on-going matters.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5607083+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2038E191P344C713594", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Standing Orders", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27191, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 129.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 129.0, "ID": 27191, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Smith, Iain", "ID": 2038, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Iain Smith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Parliament (Iain Smith): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 139.0, "ContributionID": 713594, "EditedText": "I am speaking on behalf of the Executive to indicate our full support for the Procedures Committee's work so far on the draft standing orders. That work takes account of issues raised by members of the Parliament and others based on the early experience of the workings of the Parliament. As members know, the standing orders of the Scottish Parliament are an essential framework within which Parliament can function and carry out its everyday business. We must get them right to enable the procedures of the Parliament to flow efficiently and smoothly. Although there is a requirement for consistency and certainty in the application of standing orders, there is also a need for flexibility. That is a key requirement, as no standing orders can cover every eventuality and the time has come when the Parliament needs to develop its own operating practice. Before commenting on the detail of some of the key changes, I want to express the Executive's thanks to the members of the Procedures Committee and its convener, Murray Tosh. The committee's balanced and conscientious approach to reviewing and revising the standing orders is to be commended. The Executive has every confidence that the future work of the committee will be soundly based. At this stage, and for the most part, the proposed changes to the standing orders are of a technical nature and reflect the Parliament's experience of operating under the existing standing orders. The Procedures Committee has, however, addressed a few substantive issues. I will outline the Executive's position on those.The substantive revisions include changes to question time, including the proposal that open question time be changed to First Minister's question time. The revisions reflect the views on question time expressed by the First Minister in his letter of 24 June to the Presiding Officer. They also reflect the Executive's recognition of the need for First Minister's question time to be more attractive to a wider audience. Accordingly, we welcome the fact that the revised orders propose that questions for First Minister's question time can now be tabled up to three days before the event rather than up to eight days as at present. That change, which the Executive supports, is proposed to meet criticism that members have found it difficult to raise issues of recent and current topicality. However, we look to members to frame questions in specific terms so that the First Minister and Scottish Executive departments will have a clear idea of the issues to be raised and will be able to prepare adequately in the much shorter time available. We welcome the proposal that the times allowed for both question time and First Minister's question time are to be extended. The committee has also proposed that the time for answering written parliamentary questions lodged during recess should be extended from 14 to 21 days. That recognises that, during those periods, the Executive, like the Parliament, may be less than fully staffed and that the usual timeframe can reasonably be relaxed. It is perhaps worth noting that, unlike at Westminster, recesses bring us no respite from having to consider questions from members. I take this opportunity to remind members that a statistical analysis, to which my colleague the Minister for Parliament referred in a recent answer to a parliamentary question, is currently being undertaken on the parliamentary questions tabled to date. A number of issues are being considered, including the number of questions asked since 1 July and the time scale for responses. The findings of the audit should be available shortly. However, I can say that there has been a 200 per cent increase in the number of questions, of which a substantial proportion are either about matters that are not the responsibility of the Executive or relate to issues where information is already in the public domain. In addition, we are looking at all aspects of parliamentary question procedure, including the appropriateness of questions asked, the use of holding answers and the asking of questions during recess. An extension of the remit of the Finance Committee is proposed. As Mr Tosh mentioned, the committee's remit is restricted to matters connected with parliamentary scrutiny of the annual budget and committee reports that set out proposals covering public expenditure. The proposed additional strand of the remit will allow the committee to consider any other matters relating to expenditure of the Administration and of the Scottish consolidated fund. The revised orders will allow it to examine financial matters that do not fall within the remit of any other committee and on which documents may not necessarily be laid. That is welcome, as it will give the committee wider scope for its work within areas for which the Executive is responsible. On the issue of flexibility, members will know that new procedures are proposed to allow standing orders to be suspended on a motion from the Parliamentary Bureau. That will, for instance, enable the rule requiring a financial resolution to be passed within three months of the introduction of the relevant bill to be suspended in appropriate circumstances. That will deal with the criticism that the rule places unnecessary pressure on the timetables of committees, as was suggested in the case of the two Executive bills recently considered by the Justice and Home Affairs Committee. Greater flexibility is also proposed in the extension of Wednesday meetings of the Parliament to 7 pm, which will give more time for parliamentary business while retaining family- friendly working hours. The intention is that MSPs will be made aware, well in advance, of when business is likely to be extended. The extension will enable MSPs to have a full work programme in the Parliament while not encroaching on their time in their constituencies on Monday morning and all day Friday. It is proposed that the number of Opposition half days be extended from 15 to 16 days. The committee agreed that this additional half day could be used by the minor parties, such as the Green party and the Scottish Socialist party. The convener has asked the Presiding Officer to take that into account. As I said, the Executive commends the work that has been undertaken by the Procedures Committee and we are happy to support its recommendations. The revised orders reflect close joint working on the details between committee and Executive officials and we are grateful for the spirit of co-operation in which the work has been taken forward. In particular, we very much welcome the extent to which the committee's views accord with those of the Executive as set out in the First Minister's letter on question time to the Presiding Officer. We are also pleased with the way in which they accord with the Executive's memorandum of 16 September, with the evidence given by the Minister for Parliament to the committee on 21 September and, I am happy to note, with several of my own recent contributions. The changes to the standing orders recommended by the Procedures Committee provide a coherent framework for the effective working of the Parliament in the future. Of course, this is just the beginning and the task is by no means completed. I fully expect that further changes will be required to standing orders. The Executive believes that the Procedures Committee could usefully consider, in the light of experience to date, the effectiveness of parliamentary procedures in relation to the legislative process, to the operation of the committee system and to parliamentary questions. The Executive stands ready to assist the work of the committee and both the Minister for Parliament and I look forward to continued joint working and a productive relationship.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am speaking on behalf of the Executive to indicate our full support for the Procedures Committee's work so far on the draft standing orders. That work takes account of issues raised by members of the Parliament and others based on the early experience of the workings of the Parliament.

As members know, the standing orders of the Scottish Parliament are an essential framework within which Parliament can function and carry out its everyday business. We must get them right to enable the procedures of the Parliament to flow efficiently and smoothly.

Although there is a requirement for consistency and certainty in the application of standing orders, there is also a need for flexibility. That is a key requirement, as no standing orders can cover every eventuality and the time has come when the Parliament needs to develop its own operating practice.

Before commenting on the detail of some of the key changes, I want to express the Executive's thanks to the members of the Procedures Committee and its convener, Murray Tosh. The committee's balanced and conscientious approach to reviewing and revising the standing orders is to be commended. The Executive has every confidence that the future work of the committee will be soundly based.

At this stage, and for the most part, the proposed changes to the standing orders are of a technical nature and reflect the Parliament's experience of operating under the existing standing orders. The Procedures Committee has, however, addressed a few substantive issues. I

will outline the Executive's position on those.

The substantive revisions include changes to question time, including the proposal that open question time be changed to First Minister's question time. The revisions reflect the views on question time expressed by the First Minister in his letter of 24 June to the Presiding Officer. They also reflect the Executive's recognition of the need for First Minister's question time to be more attractive to a wider audience.

Accordingly, we welcome the fact that the revised orders propose that questions for First Minister's question time can now be tabled up to three days before the event rather than up to eight days as at present. That change, which the Executive supports, is proposed to meet criticism that members have found it difficult to raise issues of recent and current topicality. However, we look to members to frame questions in specific terms so that the First Minister and Scottish Executive departments will have a clear idea of the issues to be raised and will be able to prepare adequately in the much shorter time available. We welcome the proposal that the times allowed for both question time and First Minister's question time are to be extended.

The committee has also proposed that the time for answering written parliamentary questions lodged during recess should be extended from 14 to 21 days. That recognises that, during those periods, the Executive, like the Parliament, may be less than fully staffed and that the usual timeframe can reasonably be relaxed. It is perhaps worth noting that, unlike at Westminster, recesses bring us no respite from having to consider questions from members.

I take this opportunity to remind members that a statistical analysis, to which my colleague the Minister for Parliament referred in a recent answer to a parliamentary question, is currently being undertaken on the parliamentary questions tabled to date. A number of issues are being considered, including the number of questions asked since 1 July and the time scale for responses. The findings of the audit should be available shortly. However, I can say that there has been a 200 per cent increase in the number of questions, of which a substantial proportion are either about matters that are not the responsibility of the Executive or relate to issues where information is already in the public domain.

In addition, we are looking at all aspects of parliamentary question procedure, including the appropriateness of questions asked, the use of holding answers and the asking of questions during recess.

An extension of the remit of the Finance Committee is proposed. As Mr Tosh mentioned, the committee's remit is restricted to matters connected with parliamentary scrutiny of the annual budget and committee reports that set out proposals covering public expenditure. The proposed additional strand of the remit will allow the committee to consider any other matters relating to expenditure of the Administration and of the Scottish consolidated fund. The revised orders will allow it to examine financial matters that do not fall within the remit of any other committee and on which documents may not necessarily be laid. That is welcome, as it will give the committee wider scope for its work within areas for which the Executive is responsible.

On the issue of flexibility, members will know that new procedures are proposed to allow standing orders to be suspended on a motion from the Parliamentary Bureau. That will, for instance, enable the rule requiring a financial resolution to be passed within three months of the introduction of the relevant bill to be suspended in appropriate circumstances. That will deal with the criticism that the rule places unnecessary pressure on the timetables of committees, as was suggested in the case of the two Executive bills recently considered by the Justice and Home Affairs Committee.

Greater flexibility is also proposed in the extension of Wednesday meetings of the Parliament to 7 pm, which will give more time for parliamentary business while retaining family- friendly working hours. The intention is that MSPs will be made aware, well in advance, of when business is likely to be extended. The extension will enable MSPs to have a full work programme in the Parliament while not encroaching on their time in their constituencies on Monday morning and all day Friday.

It is proposed that the number of Opposition half days be extended from 15 to 16 days. The committee agreed that this additional half day could be used by the minor parties, such as the Green party and the Scottish Socialist party. The convener has asked the Presiding Officer to take that into account.

As I said, the Executive commends the work that has been undertaken by the Procedures Committee and we are happy to support its recommendations. The revised orders reflect close joint working on the details between committee and Executive officials and we are grateful for the spirit of co-operation in which the work has been taken forward.

In particular, we very much welcome the extent to which the committee's views accord with those of the Executive as set out in the First Minister's letter on question time to the Presiding Officer. We are also pleased with the way in which they accord with the Executive's memorandum of 16 September, with the evidence given by the

Minister for Parliament to the committee on 21 September and, I am happy to note, with several of my own recent contributions.

The changes to the standing orders recommended by the Procedures Committee provide a coherent framework for the effective working of the Parliament in the future. Of course, this is just the beginning and the task is by no means completed. I fully expect that further changes will be required to standing orders. The Executive believes that the Procedures Committee could usefully consider, in the light of experience to date, the effectiveness of parliamentary procedures in relation to the legislative process, to the operation of the committee system and to parliamentary questions.

The Executive stands ready to assist the work of the committee and both the Minister for Parliament and I look forward to continued joint working and a productive relationship.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5607083+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C713596", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Standing Orders", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27191, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 129.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 129.0, "ID": 27191, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell (South of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 144.0, "ContributionID": 713596, "EditedText": "I repeat what has become a constant theme: gratitude to Murray Tosh, my fellow members of the committee and John Patterson and his clerking team for making the Procedures Committee a pleasurable experience. I know that members believe that people on the Procedures Committee are anoraks of parliamentary procedure who enjoy nothing more than dissecting rule 15.1(b). Their impression is correct. There are many sad people similar to ourselves in the world, but at least the Procedures Committee keeps us from train-spotting; it also contributes to the greater good of the Parliament. The committee has worked well, in no small measure because of the leadership of Murray Tosh. A colleague said to me last night that, now that this report was before the Parliament, the work of the Procedures Committee would be over and we could go and do something useful. The reality is that the work of the committee has only just started. Today's debate is about making the ideal standing orders that the consultative steering group gave us into something workable. There were elements of the CSG standing orders that were impossible to make work practically in the Parliament. The job of the Procedures Committee from now on is to take the workable standing orders and make them better and perhaps, through the work of the chamber and the committees, to convert them back into something ideal. A number of issues still need to be addressed. There are the abstruse but important issues surrounding the allocation of parliamentary time, a matter to which Tommy Sheridan has referred. To whom does the time of the Parliament belong? Does it belong to the Parliament, which can give it away to the Executive or to others? Alternatively, does it belong to the Executive, which simply doles it out in small amounts to the Opposition parties? I stand firmly on the side of the argument that the time of the Parliament belongs to the Parliament and that the Executive should be allowed to use it, but not all of it. There is a great need for that time to be used by Opposition parties and by individual members in bringing their concerns to the Parliament. We heard two statements this morning, both of which overran and neither of which contributed a great deal to the parliamentary debate, leaving many members feeling frustrated. I would like the Procedures Committee to discuss the way in which the time of the Parliament could be put at the disposal of the Parliament's members, not just at the disposal of the Executive. There is the question of private members' bills and committee bills, a process that we have not really started yet. We have a great deal to learn; as we do, and as those pieces of legislation go through, we will have to return to the standing orders and look closely at the best way in which to assist individual members to bring legislation through. We do not know precisely how that will happen. We have to consider the relationship between the Parliament and other institutions. As we speak, the First Minister is taking part in a committee in London on which the Parliament has never been consulted. The joint ministerial committees will be important to the work of the Executive and the Parliament, yet the issue has been debated neither in the chamber nor in any of the Parliament's committees. It is extremely important that the Procedures Committee looks at such issues, makes a judgment on them and brings its recommendations to the chamber so that Parliament can be consulted. The committee can also discuss the bizarre ideas that emanate from individual members, including the First Minister, who seems to think that there is a role for the House of Lords in scrutinising the work of the Parliament, an idea so odd that it must have been some sort of joke that simply fell flat on its delivery.", "EditedTextHTML": "I repeat what has become a constant theme: gratitude to Murray Tosh, my fellow members of the committee and John Patterson and his clerking team for making the Procedures Committee a pleasurable experience.

I know that members believe that people on the Procedures Committee are anoraks of parliamentary procedure who enjoy nothing more than dissecting rule 15.1(b). Their impression is correct. There are many sad people similar to ourselves in the world, but at least the Procedures Committee keeps us from train-spotting; it also contributes to the greater good of the Parliament. The committee has worked well, in no small measure because of the leadership of Murray Tosh.

A colleague said to me last night that, now that this report was before the Parliament, the work of the Procedures Committee would be over and we could go and do something useful. The reality is that the work of the committee has only just started.

Today's debate is about making the ideal standing orders that the consultative steering group gave us into something workable. There were elements of the CSG standing orders that were impossible to make work practically in the Parliament. The job of the Procedures Committee from now on is to take the workable standing orders and make them better and perhaps, through the work of the chamber and the committees, to convert them back into something ideal.

A number of issues still need to be addressed. There are the abstruse but important issues surrounding the allocation of parliamentary time, a matter to which Tommy Sheridan has referred. To whom does the time of the Parliament belong? Does it belong to the Parliament, which can give it away to the Executive or to others? Alternatively, does it belong to the Executive, which simply doles it out in small amounts to the Opposition parties? I stand firmly on the side of the argument that the time of the Parliament belongs to the Parliament and that the Executive should be allowed to use it, but not all of it. There is a great need for that time to be used by Opposition parties and by individual members in bringing their concerns to the Parliament.

We heard two statements this morning, both of which overran and neither of which contributed a great deal to the parliamentary debate, leaving many members feeling frustrated. I would like the Procedures Committee to discuss the way in which the time of the Parliament could be put at the disposal of the Parliament's members, not just at the disposal of the Executive.

There is the question of private members' bills and committee bills, a process that we have not really started yet. We have a great deal to learn; as we do, and as those pieces of legislation go through, we will have to return to the standing orders and look closely at the best way in which to assist individual members to bring legislation through. We do not know precisely how that will happen.

We have to consider the relationship between the Parliament and other institutions. As we speak, the First Minister is taking part in a committee in London on which the Parliament has never been consulted. The joint ministerial committees will be important to the work of the Executive and the Parliament, yet the issue has been debated neither in the chamber nor in any of the Parliament's committees. It is extremely important that the Procedures Committee looks at such issues, makes a judgment on them and brings its recommendations to the chamber so that Parliament can be consulted.

The committee can also discuss the bizarre ideas that emanate from individual members, including the First Minister, who seems to think that there is a role for the House of Lords in scrutinising the work of the Parliament, an idea so odd that it must have been some sort of joke that simply fell flat on its delivery.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5607083+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C713601", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Standing Orders", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27191, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 129.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 129.0, "ID": 27191, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan (Falkirk West): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 157.0, "ContributionID": 713601, "EditedText": "I wish to speak in support of Tommy Sheridan's amendment. In my first speech to this Parliament, away back in May, I made the point that I was the only member who was not a member of any party. That was not entirely of my own volition. The way in which I was elected to this Parliament was not my preferred way, but I felt that I had no option but to let the people of Falkirk West decide, which they did by giving me the biggest vote and the biggest majority in Scotland. I could therefore argue that I have the strongest democratic mandate of any member of this Parliament; but I am not going to go down that road. I take the view that, once elected, we should all be treated as equals. Unless Tommy Sheridan's amendment is accepted, under standing order 5.6, I shall be the only member of this Parliament without any opportunity to initiate a debate. I consider that to be unfair discrimination—not just against me personally, but, more important, against the people whom I represent. There are also longer- term implications for other non-aligned candidates who may be elected to this Parliament in future; and for present members who may find that their party membership is withdrawn, for example, for voting against the party line. I signed the letter written jointly by Tommy Sheridan, Robin Harper and me to Murray Tosh, the convener of the Procedures Committee. The letter asked for some opportunity to be given to the three of us to initiate debates under standing order 5.6. We did not ask for any debating time to be taken away from any other parties. We were not asking for a slice of the existing cake; what we were asking for was a slight increase in the size of the cake and for a few crumbs. I am very pleased that the Procedures Committee has responded positively, at least in part, to our request, and has allowed some opportunities for Tommy and Robin. However, I fail to understand why I have been excluded. Murray Tosh said that it was necessary to distinguish between single-member parties and non-aligned members, but he did not say why. For the purposes of standing order 5.6, does it really make much difference whether a member belongs to a party with only one member in the Parliament, or whether that member does not belong to a party at all? A member is a member is a member. We have been told recently by the Presiding Officer himself that all members of this Parliament have equal status. Well, I am not of equal status if I am prohibited from initiating a debate under standing order 5.6. It is rather anomalous that I could presumably get round that prohibition by going out and forming my own party. I have no intention of doing so, but I have every intention of doing what I was sent here to do, namely, represent my constituents. Tommy Sheridan's amendment would allow me more opportunity to do the job that I was elected to do. I therefore support it, and ask all fair-minded colleagues to do likewise.", "EditedTextHTML": "I wish to speak in support of Tommy Sheridan's amendment. In my first speech to this Parliament, away back in May, I made the point that I was the only member who was not a member of any party. That was not entirely of my own volition. The way in which I was elected to this Parliament was not my preferred way, but I felt that I had no option but to let the people of Falkirk West decide, which they did by giving me the biggest vote and the biggest majority in Scotland. I could therefore argue that I have the strongest democratic mandate of any member of this Parliament; but I am not going to go down that road. I take the view that, once elected, we should all be treated as equals.

Unless Tommy Sheridan's amendment is accepted, under standing order 5.6, I shall be the only member of this Parliament without any opportunity to initiate a debate. I consider that to be unfair discrimination—not just against me personally, but, more important, against the people whom I represent. There are also longer- term implications for other non-aligned candidates who may be elected to this Parliament in future; and for present members who may find that their party membership is withdrawn, for example, for voting against the party line.

I signed the letter written jointly by Tommy Sheridan, Robin Harper and me to Murray Tosh, the convener of the Procedures Committee. The letter asked for some opportunity to be given to the three of us to initiate debates under standing order 5.6. We did not ask for any debating time to be taken away from any other parties. We were not asking for a slice of the existing cake; what we were asking for was a slight increase in the size of the cake and for a few crumbs.

I am very pleased that the Procedures Committee has responded positively, at least in part, to our request, and has allowed some opportunities for Tommy and Robin. However, I fail to understand why I have been excluded. Murray Tosh said that it was necessary to distinguish between single-member parties and non-aligned members, but he did not say why. For the purposes of standing order 5.6, does it really make much difference whether a member belongs to a party with only one member in the Parliament, or whether that member does not belong to a party at all? A member is a member is a member. We have been told recently by the Presiding Officer himself that all members of this Parliament have equal status. Well, I am not of equal status if I am prohibited from initiating a debate under standing order 5.6.

It is rather anomalous that I could presumably get round that prohibition by going out and forming my own party. I have no intention of doing so, but I have every intention of doing what I was sent here to do, namely, represent my constituents. Tommy Sheridan's amendment would allow me more opportunity to do the job that I was elected to do. I therefore support it, and ask all fair-minded colleagues to do likewise.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5607083+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C713604", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Standing Orders", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27191, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 129.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 129.0, "ID": 27191, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 165.0, "ContributionID": 713604, "EditedText": "I have many comments to which to respond. Tommy Sheridan welcomed the fact that all political parties have been drawn into the parliamentary process, so at least we agree on that. As for the substance of his amendment, the issue with which the committee had to grapple and to agree was how to handle a situation where we might have several independents. How realistic would it be in practice to give each independent a half day for a debate? We felt that we could not make allowance for that suggestion within the rules that govern political parties. Dennis Canavan asked about the difference between a one-member party and a non-aligned individual. A political party has a manifesto and a programme that ranges widely and far beyond the individual member's constituency. A constituency member is a member for the constituency and Dennis is the member for Falkirk West. When we discussed the issue, we felt that any matters related to Falkirk West could be dealt with through members' business, which allows MSPs to lodge motions on an enormous range of issues that might impact on their constituencies but not necessarily be specific to them. I drew that fact to the Presiding Officer's attention when I wrote to him and asked him to give Dennis Canavan what amounted to preferential treatment within the members' business category. Although we recognised that he had no way in which to bring forward his election manifesto, we did not believe that he had such a manifesto. We hold Dennis in the greatest respect, as does every MSP; and I should say that, as an Opposition party, the Conservatives hold him in some affection. I am sure that, if pressed on the point and confronted with arguments that it did not take into account, the committee would reconsider the matter, as it would all matters in future. However, I cannot accept the amendment, because it does not reflect the committee's decision or recommendation. I thank Iain Smith for his helpful involvement in the committee's work. He highlighted the fact that the report goes for flexibility and balance. His points about the extension of parliamentary time on Wednesdays and the suspension of standing orders show how we have tried to balance members' rights and the Executive's need to dispatch its business. He also referred to items that he wanted the committee to consider in future, which is what it will do. The committee will address all the procedures and practices of the Parliament. The Presiding Officer has written to me in terms similar to Iain's. Mike Russell referred to remits from the Executive and the Presiding Officer and talked about on-going points from MSPs. Indeed, this week, members have raised several such points. The process will not stop—ever. MSPs and members of the public and the press, who write to us on a huge variety of issues, should be confident that the committee will continue to review its practices in the light of their points. Mike also mentioned members' bills and committee bills, which are enormous areas that we have still to consider. I will not, however, be drawn on what he said about independance. Donald Gorrie spoke very helpfully, if briefly, about the on-going difficulties that the committee must address. I always welcome Johann Lamont's contributions to less adversarial politics. Her point about the Parliament being family friendly was important. Janis Hughes will have been able to give her some assurance on that. There is a need for the Parliamentary Bureau to handle the issue sensitively and to give adequate notice of extended hours in all cases. I thank members for their positive comments and in particular for the warm comments that many of them made about me, which are always nice to enjoy. I assure Parliament that the committee's intention is to continue to try to be fair to everybody involved. Nothing is finished; nothing is closed. The Parliament will continue to evolve and develop through the Procedures Committee. I hope that we can continue to operate in the same consensual and positive way that we have hitherto.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have many comments to which to respond. Tommy Sheridan welcomed the fact that all political parties have been drawn into the parliamentary process, so at least we agree on that. As for the substance of his amendment, the issue with which the committee had to grapple and to agree was how to handle a situation where we might have several independents. How realistic would it be in practice to give each independent a half day for a debate? We felt that we could not make allowance for that suggestion within the rules that govern political parties.

Dennis Canavan asked about the difference between a one-member party and a non-aligned individual. A political party has a manifesto and a programme that ranges widely and far beyond the individual member's constituency. A constituency member is a member for the constituency and Dennis is the member for Falkirk West. When we discussed the issue, we felt that any matters related to Falkirk West could be dealt with through members' business, which allows MSPs to lodge motions on an enormous range of issues that might impact on their constituencies but not necessarily be specific to them.

I drew that fact to the Presiding Officer's attention when I wrote to him and asked him to give Dennis Canavan what amounted to preferential treatment within the members' business category. Although we recognised that he had no way in which to bring forward his election manifesto, we did not believe that he had such a manifesto. We hold Dennis in the greatest respect, as does every MSP; and I should say that, as an Opposition party, the Conservatives hold him in some affection. I am sure that, if pressed on the point and confronted with arguments that it did not take into account, the committee would reconsider the matter, as it would all matters in future. However, I cannot accept the amendment, because it does not reflect the committee's decision or recommendation.

I thank Iain Smith for his helpful involvement in the committee's work. He highlighted the fact that the report goes for flexibility and balance. His points about the extension of parliamentary time on Wednesdays and the suspension of standing orders show how we have tried to balance members' rights and the Executive's need to dispatch its business. He also referred to items that he wanted the committee to consider in future, which is what it will do. The committee will address all the procedures and practices of the Parliament. The Presiding Officer has written to me in terms similar to Iain's.

Mike Russell referred to remits from the Executive and the Presiding Officer and talked about on-going points from MSPs. Indeed, this week, members have raised several such points. The process will not stop—ever. MSPs and members of the public and the press, who write to us on a huge variety of issues, should be confident that the committee will continue to review its practices in the light of their points. Mike also mentioned members' bills and committee bills, which are enormous areas that we have still to consider. I will not, however, be drawn on what he said about independance.

Donald Gorrie spoke very helpfully, if briefly, about the on-going difficulties that the committee must address. I always welcome Johann Lamont's contributions to less adversarial politics. Her point about the Parliament being family friendly was important. Janis Hughes will have been able to give her some assurance on that. There is a need for the Parliamentary Bureau to handle the issue sensitively and to give adequate notice of extended hours in all cases.

I thank members for their positive comments and in particular for the warm comments that

many of them made about me, which are always nice to enjoy. I assure Parliament that the committee's intention is to continue to try to be fair to everybody involved. Nothing is finished; nothing is closed. The Parliament will continue to evolve and develop through the Procedures Committee. I hope that we can continue to operate in the same consensual and positive way that we have hitherto.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5607083+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C713605", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27192, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 167.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 167.0, "ID": 27192, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 168.0, "ContributionID": 713605, "EditedText": "We move to the next item of business, a debate on motion S1M-213, in the name of Mr Jim Wallace, which seeks the Parliament's agreement to the general principles of the Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill. Before we begin, I remind members that the debate will be held in two sections—from now until we adjourn for lunch and for a further one hour and 45 minutes after open question time this afternoon. I intend to bring the first section of the debate to a close just before 12.30 pm. It is therefore likely that only the Executive and main party spokespeople will be given the opportunity to speak in the first section of the debate. Other members will be called to speak when the debate resumes this afternoon.", "EditedTextHTML": "We move to the next item of business, a debate on motion S1M-213, in the name of Mr Jim Wallace, which seeks the Parliament's agreement to the general principles of the Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill.

Before we begin, I remind members that the debate will be held in two sections—from now until we adjourn for lunch and for a further one hour and 45 minutes after open question time this afternoon. I intend to bring the first section of the debate to a close just before 12.30 pm. It is therefore likely that only the Executive and main party spokespeople will be given the opportunity to speak in the first section of the debate. Other members will be called to speak when the debate resumes this afternoon.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5607083+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1821E295P538C713607", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27192, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 167.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 167.0, "ID": 27192, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Mrs Margaret", "ID": 1821, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Moray" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Margaret Ewing (Moray) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 173.0, "ContributionID": 713607, "EditedText": "Part of the problem that I have with the bill is the inclusion of people in discussions of how to decide to give power of attorney, for example. What does the minister foresee as the legislative programme that will enable all the relatives organisations, as well as the family, to come together? That aspect of the legislation is complex, and we want to get it perfect.", "EditedTextHTML": "Part of the problem that I have with the bill is the inclusion of people in discussions of how to decide to give power of attorney, for example. What does the minister foresee as the legislative programme that will enable all the relatives organisations, as well as the family, to come together? That aspect of the legislation is complex, and we want to get it perfect.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5607083+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C713608", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27192, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 167.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 167.0, "ID": 27192, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 175.0, "ContributionID": 713608, "EditedText": "Individual cases—it is important to stress that cases are considered individually—will differ according to the individual's incapacity and the particular circumstances. Is a specific intervention required for the sale of heritable property, for example, or is something more general needed? Such decisions will, by their nature, involve a range of people. As I have indicated, there will be medical input, and legal input will be important in identifying the precise requirements for particular situations. Obviously, the views and information of those most closely connected with the adult concerned are particularly relevant. Such people will have some knowledge of the adult's wishes. A clear indication of the person's incapacity will also be relevant. We intend to lodge an amendment to the bill to allow the adult to ask for the nearest relative to be removed from their position in exceptional circumstances. We have also listened to concerns about excluding partners of the same sex from the definition of spouse or partner. That was reflected in the Justice and Home Affairs Committee's report. We will introduce an amendment to the effect that a same-sex partner may be included as the nearest relative for the purposes of this legislation. On more specific provisions, the bill will expand and enhance private arrangements that an individual can make for the possibility of their future incapacity. We hope that an increasing number of citizens will take advantage of those provisions. It is already possible to appoint an attorney to look after one's property and financial affairs. The bill will make it possible to appoint a welfare attorney to make decisions about personal welfare, including medical treatment. Though powers of attorney are essentially private arrangements, there will be new safeguards against abuse. A new office of the public guardian will keep information on public registers about the powers being exercised on behalf of people who have lost capacity. The courts will be able to intervene if something is wrong and to remove an attorney's powers as a last resort. The freezing of accounts when the account holder loses capacity has been one of the most common and distressing problems with the current arrangements. The bill will resolve those difficulties by including, at part 3, a simple and much-needed scheme for access to an adult's funds, which will provide supervised access to, for example, an adult's bank or building society account. It will allow a carer or relative to use the adult's funds to manage day-to-day household expenses. Part 4 of the bill sets out unified arrangements for managers of care establishments to look after their residents' finances in the event of incapacity and where there are no other suitable arrangements. This provision will encompass those living in hospital and in residential and nursing homes. For the most part, managers who currently perform that service for their residents do so informally and without checks and safeguards. The scheme in the bill puts that right. We have listened to the genuine concerns expressed to us about the possibility of conflicts of interest for managers and we agree that there should be stringent safeguards to prevent any such conflicts. The bill provides for independent monitoring of establishments and for national standards. Where residents have significant funds, other measures will generally be taken to protect their financial interests. A significant part of the bill sets up a new, flexible and accessible system of intervention and guardianship orders, which replace the existing offices of curator bonis, tutor at law, tutor dative and guardianship as defined by mental health legislation. Where an adult lacks the capacity to make a one-off decision, such as signing an important document, a one-off order can be sought in the sheriff court. Where longer-term arrangements are needed, a guardianship order can be made, with powers conferred over specified aspects of an adult's life. A relative or carer could apply to be guardian and, when there is no other alternative, the chief social work officer of the local authority may be appointed welfare guardian. It will be possible for the courts to appoint a financial guardian to an adult with incapacity. Specific powers will be conferred over the adult's property and financial affairs, and the public guardian will supervise the exercise of those powers. Accounts will normally have to be kept and the public guardian can investigate any concerns. It is fair to say that part 5 of the bill, which deals with medical treatment and research, commanded the attention of the Justice and Home Affairs Committee and of the Health and Community Care Committee, and rightly so. We recognise, as does the Parliament, that these provisions raise sensitive issues and require the closest consideration. I repeat that the Executive appreciates the careful and balanced views expressed by the Justice and Home Affairs Committee, which were based on widely differing written and oral submissions, all of which were sincere expressions of deeply held opinions. It is useful to rehearse briefly the background to part 5. The law as it stands is not clear. There is no explicit authority for a doctor to treat a patient who is unable to consent, except in an emergency. That lack of clarity could well result in such patients not receiving treatment that could enhance their well-being and quality of life. That is manifestly unsatisfactory. Similarly, current research practice lacks the statutory underpinning needed to provide safeguards for those patients, as well as for researchers. Part 5 of the bill introduces a statutory framework that protects the interests of the patient, gives a balanced role to his or her legal representative and, at the same time, invests doctors with appropriate authority. I now turn to some of the specific areas of difficulty. A recurrent theme has been the implication that, in some way or another, the bill opens the way to passive euthanasia. I want to make the position absolutely clear. The Scottish Executive is totally opposed to euthanasia. Any such act is a crime in Scotland and nothing in the bill is designed to alter that position. That said, however, the Executive believes that some changes to part 5 are desirable to create a more balanced approach to treatment decisions. We accordingly propose to lodge amendments at stage 2, which will help to allay some of the concerns that have been expressed. We propose an amendment to section 47, which will allow a doctor to seek a second medical opinion in cases in which the guardian or welfare attorney has refused consent to the medical treatment that has been proposed. If that second opinion confirms the need for the treatment in question, the doctor will be able to proceed. However, anyone with an interest in the personal welfare of the patient, including a doctor, welfare attorney, guardian or relative, will be able to appeal to the Court of Session if they are concerned about the course of action that had been proposed by a doctor, even when that action is supported by a second medical opinion. We have listened carefully to the views that were expressed by the committee on the definition of medical treatment and, in particular, the inclusion of artificial nutrition and hydration. That particular part of the bill has caused considerable unease. We propose to amend the definition of \"medical treatment\" to remove reference to particular procedures and to define treatment simply as \"any procedure or treatment designed to safeguard or promote physical or mental health\". The positive nature of the new definition will underline the fact that the purpose of this bill is to help, not to harm, adults with incapacity.", "EditedTextHTML": "Individual cases—it is important to stress that cases are considered individually—will differ according to the individual's incapacity and the particular circumstances. Is a specific intervention required for the sale of heritable property, for example, or is something more general needed? Such decisions will, by their nature, involve a range of people. As I have indicated, there will be medical input, and legal input will be important in identifying the precise requirements for particular situations. Obviously, the views and information of those most closely connected with the adult concerned are particularly relevant. Such people will have some knowledge of the adult's wishes. A clear indication of the person's incapacity will also be relevant.

We intend to lodge an amendment to the bill to allow the adult to ask for the nearest relative to be removed from their position in exceptional circumstances. We have also listened to concerns

about excluding partners of the same sex from the definition of spouse or partner. That was reflected in the Justice and Home Affairs Committee's report. We will introduce an amendment to the effect that a same-sex partner may be included as the nearest relative for the purposes of this legislation.

On more specific provisions, the bill will expand and enhance private arrangements that an individual can make for the possibility of their future incapacity. We hope that an increasing number of citizens will take advantage of those provisions. It is already possible to appoint an attorney to look after one's property and financial affairs. The bill will make it possible to appoint a welfare attorney to make decisions about personal welfare, including medical treatment. Though powers of attorney are essentially private arrangements, there will be new safeguards against abuse. A new office of the public guardian will keep information on public registers about the powers being exercised on behalf of people who have lost capacity. The courts will be able to intervene if something is wrong and to remove an attorney's powers as a last resort.

The freezing of accounts when the account holder loses capacity has been one of the most common and distressing problems with the current arrangements. The bill will resolve those difficulties by including, at part 3, a simple and much-needed scheme for access to an adult's funds, which will provide supervised access to, for example, an adult's bank or building society account. It will allow a carer or relative to use the adult's funds to manage day-to-day household expenses.

Part 4 of the bill sets out unified arrangements for managers of care establishments to look after their residents' finances in the event of incapacity and where there are no other suitable arrangements. This provision will encompass those living in hospital and in residential and nursing homes. For the most part, managers who currently perform that service for their residents do so informally and without checks and safeguards. The scheme in the bill puts that right.

We have listened to the genuine concerns expressed to us about the possibility of conflicts of interest for managers and we agree that there should be stringent safeguards to prevent any such conflicts. The bill provides for independent monitoring of establishments and for national standards. Where residents have significant funds, other measures will generally be taken to protect their financial interests.

A significant part of the bill sets up a new, flexible and accessible system of intervention and guardianship orders, which replace the existing offices of curator bonis, tutor at law, tutor dative and guardianship as defined by mental health legislation.

Where an adult lacks the capacity to make a one-off decision, such as signing an important document, a one-off order can be sought in the sheriff court. Where longer-term arrangements are needed, a guardianship order can be made, with powers conferred over specified aspects of an adult's life. A relative or carer could apply to be guardian and, when there is no other alternative, the chief social work officer of the local authority may be appointed welfare guardian.

It will be possible for the courts to appoint a financial guardian to an adult with incapacity. Specific powers will be conferred over the adult's property and financial affairs, and the public guardian will supervise the exercise of those powers. Accounts will normally have to be kept and the public guardian can investigate any concerns.

It is fair to say that part 5 of the bill, which deals with medical treatment and research, commanded the attention of the Justice and Home Affairs Committee and of the Health and Community Care Committee, and rightly so. We recognise, as does the Parliament, that these provisions raise sensitive issues and require the closest consideration. I repeat that the Executive appreciates the careful and balanced views expressed by the Justice and Home Affairs Committee, which were based on widely differing written and oral submissions, all of which were sincere expressions of deeply held opinions.

It is useful to rehearse briefly the background to part 5. The law as it stands is not clear. There is no explicit authority for a doctor to treat a patient who is unable to consent, except in an emergency. That lack of clarity could well result in such patients not receiving treatment that could enhance their well-being and quality of life. That is manifestly unsatisfactory. Similarly, current research practice lacks the statutory underpinning needed to provide safeguards for those patients, as well as for researchers. Part 5 of the bill introduces a statutory framework that protects the interests of the patient, gives a balanced role to his or her legal representative and, at the same time, invests doctors with appropriate authority.

I now turn to some of the specific areas of difficulty. A recurrent theme has been the implication that, in some way or another, the bill opens the way to passive euthanasia. I want to make the position absolutely clear. The Scottish Executive is totally opposed to euthanasia. Any such act is a crime in Scotland and nothing in the bill is designed to alter that position.

That said, however, the Executive believes that some changes to part 5 are desirable to create a

more balanced approach to treatment decisions. We accordingly propose to lodge amendments at stage 2, which will help to allay some of the concerns that have been expressed. We propose an amendment to section 47, which will allow a doctor to seek a second medical opinion in cases in which the guardian or welfare attorney has refused consent to the medical treatment that has been proposed. If that second opinion confirms the need for the treatment in question, the doctor will be able to proceed. However, anyone with an interest in the personal welfare of the patient, including a doctor, welfare attorney, guardian or relative, will be able to appeal to the Court of Session if they are concerned about the course of action that had been proposed by a doctor, even when that action is supported by a second medical opinion.

We have listened carefully to the views that were expressed by the committee on the definition of medical treatment and, in particular, the inclusion of artificial nutrition and hydration. That particular part of the bill has caused considerable unease. We propose to amend the definition of \"medical treatment\" to remove reference to particular procedures and to define treatment simply as \"any procedure or treatment designed to safeguard or promote physical or mental health\". The positive nature of the new definition will underline the fact that the purpose of this bill is to help, not to harm, adults with incapacity.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5607083+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C713612", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27192, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 167.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 167.0, "ID": 27192, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 184.0, "ContributionID": 713612, "EditedText": "Please close.", "EditedTextHTML": "Please close.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5607083+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C713625", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27192, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 167.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 167.0, "ID": 27192, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 212.0, "ContributionID": 713625, "EditedText": "Contrary to expectation, we can probably fit in two general speeches before lunch. I call Richard Simpson, to be followed by Kay Ullrich.", "EditedTextHTML": "Contrary to expectation, we can probably fit in two general speeches before lunch. I call Richard Simpson, to be followed by Kay Ullrich.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5607083+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713630", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27193, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 222.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 222.0, "ID": 27193, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 225.0, "ContributionID": 713630, "EditedText": "Motion moved,", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion moved,

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5607083+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1863E284P532C713613", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27192, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 167.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 167.0, "ID": 27192, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Cunningham, Roseanna", "ID": 1863, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Perth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Roseanna Cunningham", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Roseanna Cunningham: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 186.0, "ContributionID": 713613, "EditedText": "A great deal of concern has also been expressed about the definition of \"medical treatment\" in the bill. In large part, that is linked to the definition of \"intervention\". The inclusion of \"ventilation, nutrition and hydration by artificial means\"in the definition of \"medical treatment\" has caused alarm, because the thought of proxy decision makers being empowered to refuse that aspect of treatment, thereby causing death, fuels concerns about passive euthanasia. No matter what attempts are made to reassure those who are alarmed by that section of the bill, they have remained firmly of the view that it could well result in proxy decision makers being able to make decisions that will inevitably lead to death, with all that that implies. The requirement that an intervention be of benefit to the patient is interpreted by the critics as having no application to a refusal or failure to act. It seems to me that the absolute assurances that that will not be a result of the legislation have counted for so little thus far that we are in danger that that aspect of the debate will overshadow everything else. I do not know whether the minister's announcements today will change that. If the intention of the drafters of the bill is that it does not authorise withdrawal of treatment, and that any such decision will still require resort to the courts, it may be that consideration should be given to spelling that out more explicitly in the legislation.", "EditedTextHTML": "A great deal of concern has also been expressed about the definition of \"medical treatment\" in the bill. In large part, that is linked to the definition of \"intervention\". The inclusion of

\"ventilation, nutrition and hydration by artificial means\"

in the definition of \"medical treatment\" has caused alarm, because the thought of proxy decision makers being empowered to refuse that aspect of treatment, thereby causing death, fuels concerns

about passive euthanasia. No matter what attempts are made to reassure those who are alarmed by that section of the bill, they have remained firmly of the view that it could well result in proxy decision makers being able to make decisions that will inevitably lead to death, with all that that implies. The requirement that an intervention be of benefit to the patient is interpreted by the critics as having no application to a refusal or failure to act. It seems to me that the absolute assurances that that will not be a result of the legislation have counted for so little thus far that we are in danger that that aspect of the debate will overshadow everything else.

I do not know whether the minister's announcements today will change that. If the intention of the drafters of the bill is that it does not authorise withdrawal of treatment, and that any such decision will still require resort to the courts, it may be that consideration should be given to spelling that out more explicitly in the legislation.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5607083+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713631", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27193, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 222.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 222.0, "ID": 27193, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 226.0, "ContributionID": 713631, "EditedText": "That the Parliament agrees a) the following addition to the programme of business on 9 December 1999— that the Business Motion will be followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions, and that the Continuation of the Stage 1 Debate on the Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill will be followed by a motion on a financial resolution required in relation to the Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill, and, b) the following programme of business—", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament agrees a) the following addition to the programme of business on 9 December 1999— that the Business Motion will be followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions, and that the Continuation of the Stage 1 Debate on the Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill will be followed by a motion on a financial resolution required in relation to the Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill, and, b) the following programme of business—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5763323+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1916E38P70C713620", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27192, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 167.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 167.0, "ID": 27192, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Ben", "ID": 1916, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ben Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ben Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 201.0, "ContributionID": 713620, "EditedText": "Although we all agree with its aims, the proposed legislation throws up the ethical question of euthanasia. Despite the minister's assurances, there are parts of the bill that could allow unscrupulous individuals to apply some form of back-door euthanasia. I ask the minister to clarify the priorities in the bill. Part 1 lists the number of conditions that must be taken into account, but it does not say whether, for example, medical evidence should override previous wishes. The conditions are listed (a) to (d), rather than ranked in order of priority. Some classification of priority would be helpful. The bill tries to balance a medical opinion with the opinion of a carer who may be ill informed. In 99 per cent of cases, the decision will be made jointly by carers and medical staff in the best interest of the adult with incapacity, but we must make plans for the exceptions. For example, a carer who is set to benefit financially may decide to override a doctor's decision, and there is no onus on that carer to seek informed medical advice. I note Jim Wallace's announcement that there will be an independent body to monitor people who have such a financial interest. His changes to section 47 have satisfied me that there will now be an onus on carers who may be the financial beneficiaries of the people for whom they care, and that medical advice will play a more prominent role in the carer's decision. The Hippocratic oath binds doctors to a duty of care. The legislation lifts some of that responsibility from the doctor, but it does not transfer it to the carer. I am concerned that, coupled with the limited liability described in section 73, which the minister has now amended, that reduction in the duty of care could allow power without responsibility. I am aware that this is stage 1 of the bill, so I have concerned myself only with protecting the aims of the legislation, on which we all agree, from the worst-case scenarios. However, the size of my mailbag confirms my view that there is genuine concern about back-door euthanasia. Although I am confident that the Executive does not intend to allow that, I urge it to take those concerns seriously. Better clarification of the priorities and a tightening up of the liability provisions would go a long way to ease those concerns.", "EditedTextHTML": "Although we all agree with its aims, the proposed legislation throws up the ethical question of euthanasia. Despite the minister's assurances, there are parts of the bill that could allow unscrupulous individuals to apply some form of back-door euthanasia. I ask the minister to clarify the priorities in the bill. Part 1 lists the number of conditions that must be taken into account, but it does not say whether, for example, medical evidence should override previous wishes. The conditions are listed (a) to (d), rather than ranked in order of priority. Some classification of priority would be helpful.

The bill tries to balance a medical opinion with the opinion of a carer who may be ill informed. In 99 per cent of cases, the decision will be made jointly by carers and medical staff in the best interest of the adult with incapacity, but we must make plans for the exceptions. For example, a carer who is set to benefit financially may decide to override a doctor's decision, and there is no onus on that carer to seek informed medical advice. I note Jim Wallace's announcement that there will be an independent body to monitor people who have such a financial interest. His changes to section 47 have satisfied me that there will now be an onus on carers who may be the financial beneficiaries of the people for whom they care, and that medical advice will play a more prominent role in the carer's decision.

The Hippocratic oath binds doctors to a duty of care. The legislation lifts some of that responsibility from the doctor, but it does not transfer it to the carer. I am concerned that, coupled with the limited liability described in section 73, which the minister has now amended, that reduction in the duty of care could allow power without responsibility.

I am aware that this is stage 1 of the bill, so I have concerned myself only with protecting the aims of the legislation, on which we all agree, from the worst-case scenarios. However, the size of my mailbag confirms my view that there is genuine concern about back-door euthanasia. Although I am confident that the Executive does not intend to allow that, I urge it to take those concerns seriously. Better clarification of the priorities and a tightening up of the liability provisions would go a long way to ease those concerns.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5763323+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C713626", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27192, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 167.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 167.0, "ID": 27192, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Richard Simpson (Ochil) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 215.0, "ContributionID": 713626, "EditedText": "The bill is to be welcomed—that is clear—but there are some problems with it. I am not sure whether the bill will last as long as the Curators Act 1585, which is the first act to be repealed by the new bill. The change in the bill's title to \"adults with incapacity\"—from the original proposal of \"incapable adults\"—recognises that incapacity is not an absolute, for the individual with a learning disability, or for the individual with Alzheimer's. Incapacity may be temporary or permanent, it may be worsening, or it may vary according to the area in which the decisions are to be made. Much attention has been paid to the most severe situations, but the thresholds of incapacity are important and I am not convinced that the bill covers them adequately. The rules on consent for treatment in relation to children, which have always been rather person- oriented in Scotland, have recently changed to allow consent to be given based on the ability to understand, without a specific age limit. It seems that the bill attempts to treat incapacity in a similar way, but that is not absolutely clear because of the medical certification that has to be issued. Such certification has to deal in absolutes, rather than in thresholds. Evidence from various organisations has indicated that people with learning disabilities at the most severe end of the scale will undoubtedly require the full capacity of the bill, but those at the lesser end will not. We are slightly hide-bound by the timing of the Millan commission; if it had reported first, we might have had new definitions, which would have made things much easier. Will the minister, in summing up, advise what consideration was given to the inclusion in the bill of a concept of partial incapacity, assisted decision making, or advocacy? None of those terms appears in the bill, yet they are the new clinical issues at present. On the matters that have caused the greatest difficulty—certainly, the Health and Community Care Committee has had problems with them—I will limit my remarks to three areas. First, the decisions are currently made by a team rather than by individuals, and it would be helpful to find a way of recognising that in the bill. The second difficulty concerns the balance between the decision of the medical team and that of the proxy. I understand from the minister's speech that an amendment will be proposed on that, but—as the minister said—it is a matter of balance between the two decisions. It seems to me that the courts should be involved only in instances where disagreement is recognised between the two. There should be no primacy over who should go to court. I am not a lawyer. I do not know how that could be done. However, when it is recognised that decisions should be made jointly, if they are not and if there is a dispute, there should be an automatic reference to the courts, rather than one or other party having to go to court. There has been much discussion about duty of care. I accept the evidence of Professor Sheila McLean to the Justice and Home Affairs Committee that we cannot impose a duty of care on proxies. That would be inappropriate. Nevertheless, there is inadequate reference in section 73 to the limit of liability of proxies, and it would be helpful to extend that limit in some way without going as far as a duty of care. The issue of omissions as opposed to commissions of intervention has been dealt with. I understand that legally, interventions include intervening as well as not intervening. However, the issue of cessation of treatment has not been covered adequately. On the matter of research, if I understand the minister's statement, the bill will be amended to take into account the European Convention on Human Rights and Biomedicine. I welcome that, because the original text of the bill seemed to rule out the use of randomised controlled trials with placebos, and also defined the benefit to the individual as having to be \"real and direct\", which was a strict definition that would rule out genetic research that might produce a distant benefit. The bill is to be welcomed. It will benefit a significant number of adults. However, the definitions in section 1, particularly those in relation to the wishes of the individual, are not sufficiently clear. I am not a lawyer, but if primacy is given to section 1(4)(a), which refers to \"the present and past wishes and feelings of the adult so far as they can be ascertained\", the written statements that I was presented with as a general practitioner, and which many of my GP colleagues increasingly are being presented with, will be of considerable importance. It might be possible to address that issue in notes of guidance, but further clarification is required at stage 2.", "EditedTextHTML": "The bill is to be welcomed—that is clear—but there are some problems with it. I am not sure whether the bill will last as long as the Curators Act 1585, which is the first act to be repealed by the new bill.

The change in the bill's title to \"adults with incapacity\"—from the original proposal of \"incapable adults\"—recognises that incapacity is not an absolute, for the individual with a learning disability, or for the individual with Alzheimer's. Incapacity may be temporary or permanent, it may be worsening, or it may vary according to the area in which the decisions are to be made. Much attention has been paid to the most severe situations, but the thresholds of incapacity are important and I am not convinced that the bill covers them adequately.

The rules on consent for treatment in relation to children, which have always been rather person- oriented in Scotland, have recently changed to allow consent to be given based on the ability to understand, without a specific age limit. It seems that the bill attempts to treat incapacity in a similar way, but that is not absolutely clear because of the

medical certification that has to be issued. Such certification has to deal in absolutes, rather than in thresholds.

Evidence from various organisations has indicated that people with learning disabilities at the most severe end of the scale will undoubtedly require the full capacity of the bill, but those at the lesser end will not. We are slightly hide-bound by the timing of the Millan commission; if it had reported first, we might have had new definitions, which would have made things much easier.

Will the minister, in summing up, advise what consideration was given to the inclusion in the bill of a concept of partial incapacity, assisted decision making, or advocacy? None of those terms appears in the bill, yet they are the new clinical issues at present.

On the matters that have caused the greatest difficulty—certainly, the Health and Community Care Committee has had problems with them—I will limit my remarks to three areas. First, the decisions are currently made by a team rather than by individuals, and it would be helpful to find a way of recognising that in the bill.

The second difficulty concerns the balance between the decision of the medical team and that of the proxy. I understand from the minister's speech that an amendment will be proposed on that, but—as the minister said—it is a matter of balance between the two decisions. It seems to me that the courts should be involved only in instances where disagreement is recognised between the two. There should be no primacy over who should go to court. I am not a lawyer. I do not know how that could be done. However, when it is recognised that decisions should be made jointly, if they are not and if there is a dispute, there should be an automatic reference to the courts, rather than one or other party having to go to court.

There has been much discussion about duty of care. I accept the evidence of Professor Sheila McLean to the Justice and Home Affairs Committee that we cannot impose a duty of care on proxies. That would be inappropriate. Nevertheless, there is inadequate reference in section 73 to the limit of liability of proxies, and it would be helpful to extend that limit in some way without going as far as a duty of care.

The issue of omissions as opposed to commissions of intervention has been dealt with. I understand that legally, interventions include intervening as well as not intervening. However, the issue of cessation of treatment has not been covered adequately.

On the matter of research, if I understand the minister's statement, the bill will be amended to take into account the European Convention on

Human Rights and Biomedicine. I welcome that, because the original text of the bill seemed to rule out the use of randomised controlled trials with placebos, and also defined the benefit to the individual as having to be \"real and direct\", which was a strict definition that would rule out genetic research that might produce a distant benefit.

The bill is to be welcomed. It will benefit a significant number of adults. However, the definitions in section 1, particularly those in relation to the wishes of the individual, are not sufficiently clear. I am not a lawyer, but if primacy is given to section 1(4)(a), which refers to

\"the present and past wishes and feelings of the adult so far as they can be ascertained\", the written statements that I was presented with as a general practitioner, and which many of my GP colleagues increasingly are being presented with, will be of considerable importance. It might be possible to address that issue in notes of guidance, but further clarification is required at stage 2.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5763323+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713628", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27192, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 167.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 167.0, "ID": 27192, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 220.0, "ContributionID": 713628, "EditedText": "I am sorry, but the chair is in some slight confusion. The debate will be resumed this afternoon.I advise members who have indicated a wish to speak that I have noted their names. The screen will now be cleared, so those who wish to speak after question time should press their buttons again.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry, but the chair is in some slight confusion.

The debate will be resumed this afternoon.

I advise members who have indicated a wish to speak that I have noted their names. The screen will now be cleared, so those who wish to speak after question time should press their buttons again.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5763323+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713633", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27193, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 222.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 222.0, "ID": 27193, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 228.0, "ContributionID": 713633, "EditedText": "9.30 am Debate on a motion on a Standards Committee report on Cross Party Groups 10.00 am Debate on draft 2000-2001 budget— level 2 figures 12.00 pm Ministerial Statement on Salmon Anaemia 2.30 pm Time for Reflection followed by Stage 1 Debate - Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc. (Scotland) Bill followed by Motion on a Financial Resolution required in relation to the provisions of the Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc. (Scotland) Bill followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions", "EditedTextHTML": "9.30 am Debate on a motion on a Standards Committee report on Cross Party Groups 10.00 am Debate on draft 2000-2001 budget— level 2 figures 12.00 pm Ministerial Statement on Salmon Anaemia 2.30 pm Time for Reflection followed by Stage 1 Debate - Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc. (Scotland) Bill followed by Motion on a Financial Resolution required in relation to the provisions of the Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc. (Scotland) Bill followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5763323+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713635", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27193, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 222.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 222.0, "ID": 27193, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 230.0, "ContributionID": 713635, "EditedText": "2.30 pm Question Time 3.00 pm Open Question Time followed by, no later than 3.15 pm Debate on Executive Motion on Health", "EditedTextHTML": "2.30 pm Question Time 3.00 pm Open Question Time followed by, no later than 3.15 pm Debate on Executive Motion on Health

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5763323+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2038E191P344C713638", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27193, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 222.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 222.0, "ID": 27193, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Smith, Iain", "ID": 2038, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Iain Smith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Parliament (Iain Smith): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 234.0, "ContributionID": 713638, "EditedText": "The Executive has no intention to make a statement. Members will have the opportunity to ask questions this afternoon, at question time.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Executive has no intention to make a statement. Members will have the opportunity to ask questions this afternoon, at question time.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5763323+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713642", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Amnesic Shellfish Poisoning", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27194, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 239.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 239.0, "ID": 27194, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 241.0, "ContributionID": 713642, "EditedText": "That the Parliament agrees that the Food Protection (Emergency Prohibitions) (Amnesic Shellfish Poisoning) (West Coast) (No 4) (Scotland) Order 1999 (SSI 1999/143) be approved.—Iain Smith.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament agrees that the Food Protection (Emergency Prohibitions) (Amnesic Shellfish Poisoning) (West Coast) (No 4) (Scotland) Order 1999 (SSI 1999/143) be approved.—[Iain Smith.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5763323+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713646", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27195, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 245.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 245.0, "ID": 27195, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 247.0, "ContributionID": 713646, "EditedText": "That the Parliament agrees that The Scotland Act 1998 (Transfer of Functions to the Scottish Ministers etc.) (No. 2) Order 1999 be approved.—Iain Smith.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament agrees that The Scotland Act 1998 (Transfer of Functions to the Scottish Ministers etc.) (No. 2) Order 1999 be approved.—[Iain Smith.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5763323+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713647", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27195, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 245.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 245.0, "ID": 27195, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 248.0, "ContributionID": 713647, "EditedText": "The question is, that motion S1M-369 be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "The question is, that motion S1M-369 be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5763323+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713648", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27195, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 245.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 245.0, "ID": 27195, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 250.0, "ContributionID": 713648, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5763323+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C713658", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27196, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27197, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 258.0, "QuestionHeading": "Strategic Rail Authority", "QuestionHeadingID": 27199, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 266.0, "DisplayOrder": 266.0, "ID": 27199, "ParentID": 27197 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 271.0, "ContributionID": 713658, "EditedText": "Will the Scottish Executive have full control over a given percentage of the amount available to the strategic rail authority, or will it have to bid on a project-by-project basis? Can the minister indicate the budget that she expects to be able to command in the life of this Parliament?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the Scottish Executive have full control over a given percentage of the amount available to the strategic rail authority, or will it have to bid on a project-by-project basis? Can the minister indicate the budget that she expects to be able to command in the life of this Parliament?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5763323+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1854E38P164C713662", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27196, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27197, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 258.0, "QuestionHeading": "Anti-drug Education Programme", "QuestionHeadingID": 27200, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 275.0, "DisplayOrder": 275.0, "ID": 27200, "ParentID": 27197 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Godman, Trish", "ID": 1854, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Renfrewshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Trish Godman", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Trish Godman: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 280.0, "ContributionID": 713662, "EditedText": "Will the deputy minister seek to ensure that no school will or can opt out of drug education programmes, which aim to protect children? Given his answer to my first question, can he assure us that he will continue to monitor those programmes and bring the results to the chamber regularly?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the deputy minister seek to ensure that no school will or can opt out of drug education programmes, which aim to protect children? Given his answer to my first question, can he assure us that he will continue to monitor those programmes and bring the results to the chamber regularly?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5763323+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2167E79P155C713663", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27196, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27197, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 258.0, "QuestionHeading": "Anti-drug Education Programme", "QuestionHeadingID": 27200, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 275.0, "DisplayOrder": 275.0, "ID": 27200, "ParentID": 27197 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Peacock, Peter", "ID": 2167, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Peter Peacock", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Peter Peacock: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 282.0, "ContributionID": 713663, "EditedText": "We want to ensure that every school participates in the drug education programme. I cannot see any good reason why any school in Scotland should exempt itself from that programme. I am happy to give an assurance that we will keep the matter firmly under review.", "EditedTextHTML": "We want to ensure that every school participates in the drug education programme. I cannot see any good reason why any school in Scotland should exempt itself from that programme. I am happy to give an assurance that we will keep the matter firmly under review.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5763323+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2154E194P299C713667", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27196, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27197, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 258.0, "QuestionHeading": "Student Finance", "QuestionHeadingID": 27201, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 284.0, "DisplayOrder": 284.0, "ID": 27201, "ParentID": 27197 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stephen, Nicol", "ID": 2154, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Nicol Stephen", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicol Stephen: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 291.0, "ContributionID": 713667, "EditedText": "I can understand that some members might prefer the report to be published while the Parliament is in session. Equally, I am sure that all members agree that this is, and should be, a matter for Parliament, not for the Executive. In its proposals for dealing with the Cubie committee's recommendations, the Executive will announce its plans in due course. We, and all MSPs, look forward to digesting the committee's proposals over the festive period.", "EditedTextHTML": "I can understand that some members might prefer the report to be published while the Parliament is in session. Equally, I am sure that all members agree that this is, and should be, a matter for Parliament, not for the Executive. In its proposals for dealing with the Cubie committee's recommendations, the Executive will announce its plans in due course. We, and all MSPs, look forward to digesting the committee's proposals over the festive period.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5763323+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C713671", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27196, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27197, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 258.0, "QuestionHeading": "National Park", "QuestionHeadingID": 27202, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 297.0, "DisplayOrder": 297.0, "ID": 27202, "ParentID": 27197 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 300.0, "ContributionID": 713671, "EditedText": "Will the minister look favourably on the submissions, when they come forward, to include Argyll forest park as part of the Loch Lomond and Trossachs national park when the consultation phase is over?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister look favourably on the submissions, when they come forward, to include Argyll forest park as part of the Loch Lomond and Trossachs national park when the consultation phase is over?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5763323+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713675", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27196, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27197, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 258.0, "QuestionHeading": "Roads (A75)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27203, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 304.0, "DisplayOrder": 304.0, "ID": 27203, "ParentID": 27197 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 309.0, "ContributionID": 713675, "EditedText": "Order. Mr Morgan, you do not have to say anything. You have to ask a question.", "EditedTextHTML": "Order. Mr Morgan, you do not have to say anything. You have to ask a question.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5763323+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2118E157P454C713678", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27196, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27197, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 258.0, "QuestionHeading": "Fire Service", "QuestionHeadingID": 27204, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 315.0, "DisplayOrder": 315.0, "ID": 27204, "ParentID": 27197 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Quinan, Mr Lloyd", "ID": 2118, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lloyd Quinan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "7. Mr Lloyd Quinan (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 316.0, "ContributionID": 713678, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what fire service property and equipment is now owned privately as a consequence of construction through the private finance initiative or public private partnerships. (S1O-807)", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what fire service property and equipment is now owned privately as a consequence of construction through the private finance initiative or public private partnerships. (S1O-807)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5763323+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2118E157P454C713680", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27196, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27197, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 258.0, "QuestionHeading": "Fire Service", "QuestionHeadingID": 27204, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 315.0, "DisplayOrder": 315.0, "ID": 27204, "ParentID": 27197 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Quinan, Mr Lloyd", "ID": 2118, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lloyd Quinan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Quinan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 320.0, "ContributionID": 713680, "EditedText": "I thank the minister for that answer, which clarifies the situation. I am sure that the minister agrees that the fire service and the vital cover that it provides will be particularly important over the coming holiday period. Not only is the risk of fire greater, but the service is expected to provide assistance during flooding and storms. Throughout the millennium celebrations this winter, I have no doubt that the pressure on all the emergency services will be particularly high. Therefore, will the minister join me in condemning the fact that, while this Parliament will enjoy a millennium break, the fire service will be expected to provide cover for our celebrations without a single extra penny in payment? Does he acknowledge the damage to morale that will be caused by the fire service being the only emergency service to work without millennium pay?", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the minister for that answer, which clarifies the situation. I am sure that the minister agrees that the fire service and the vital cover that it provides will be particularly important over the coming holiday period. Not only is the risk of fire greater, but the service is expected to provide assistance during flooding and storms.

Throughout the millennium celebrations this winter, I have no doubt that the pressure on all the emergency services will be particularly high. Therefore, will the minister join me in condemning the fact that, while this Parliament will enjoy a millennium break, the fire service will be expected to provide cover for our celebrations without a single extra penny in payment? Does he acknowledge the damage to morale that will be caused by the fire service being the only emergency service to work without millennium pay?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5763323+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C713682", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27196, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27197, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 258.0, "QuestionHeading": "Fire Service", "QuestionHeadingID": 27204, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 315.0, "DisplayOrder": 315.0, "ID": 27204, "ParentID": 27197 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Angus MacKay: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 324.0, "ContributionID": 713682, "EditedText": "I can confirm that there are no prospective private finance initiative or public private partnership projects that will have any impact on service provision over the millennium.", "EditedTextHTML": "I can confirm that there are no prospective private finance initiative or public private partnership projects that will have any impact on service provision over the millennium.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5763323+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1892E34P73C713692", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27196, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27197, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 258.0, "QuestionHeading": "Pig Industry", "QuestionHeadingID": 27208, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 347.0, "DisplayOrder": 347.0, "ID": 27208, "ParentID": 27197 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Fergusson, Alex", "ID": 1892, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Fergusson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "11. Alex Fergusson (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 348.0, "ContributionID": 713692, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has to ensure that Scotland retains a viable pig industry into the 21st century. (S1O-795) The Minister for Rural Affairs (Ross Finnie): As Mr Fergusson will be aware, the operation of the European Union state aid rules makes it difficult, if not impossible, to provide any direct financial assistance to the pig industry. I am, however, committed to doing what is possible to help the home industry by seeking to ensure that consumers, caterers and retailers recognise the high quality and welfare standards of Scottish pigmeat.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has to ensure that Scotland retains a viable pig industry into the 21st century. (S1O-795) The Minister for Rural Affairs (Ross Finnie): As Mr Fergusson will be aware, the operation of the European Union state aid rules makes it difficult, if not impossible, to provide any direct financial assistance to the pig industry. I am, however, committed to doing what is possible to help the home industry by seeking to ensure that consumers, caterers and retailers recognise the high quality and welfare standards of Scottish

pigmeat.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5763323+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C713696", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27196, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27197, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 258.0, "QuestionHeading": "Pig Industry", "QuestionHeadingID": 27208, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 347.0, "DisplayOrder": 347.0, "ID": 27208, "ParentID": 27197 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ross Finnie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 356.0, "ContributionID": 713696, "EditedText": "Mr Fergusson knows perfectly well that the answer that I gave to his first question outlined the major stumbling block to providing aid that would overcome the price that we acknowledge the home industry must pay for the stall and tether ban and the BSE costs. We are fully aware of that, and it is a matter that we will continue to prosecute in Europe. Until we can overcome the state aid problem, we are in a difficult position, as Alex Fergusson knows. He also knows that, through our consultation we are trying to tackle misleading labels of origin. We hope that that will ensure that those labels will state the country of origin, not say that bacon is cured in Scotland if it is not processed here. Alex Fergusson also knows that we have been promoting that aid within the Scottish home industry, and that we have provided additional advertising aid to promote the Scottish pig initiative. Alex Fergusson is quite wrong in suggesting that we are taking no action at all. We are not complacent. We recognise the difficulties and know the problems that must be overcome.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Fergusson knows perfectly well that the answer that I gave to his first question outlined the major stumbling block to providing aid that would overcome the price that we acknowledge the home industry must pay for the stall and tether ban and the BSE costs. We are fully aware of that, and it is a matter that we will continue to prosecute in Europe. Until we can overcome the state aid problem, we are in a difficult position, as Alex Fergusson knows. He also knows that, through our consultation we are trying to tackle misleading labels of origin. We hope that that will ensure that those labels will state the country of origin, not say that bacon is cured in Scotland if it is not processed here.

Alex Fergusson also knows that we have been promoting that aid within the Scottish home industry, and that we have provided additional advertising aid to promote the Scottish pig initiative. Alex Fergusson is quite wrong in suggesting that we are taking no action at all. We are not complacent. We recognise the difficulties and know the problems that must be overcome.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5763323+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1782E69P279C713698", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27196, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27197, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 258.0, "QuestionHeading": "Fur Farming", "QuestionHeadingID": 27209, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 358.0, "DisplayOrder": 358.0, "ID": 27209, "ParentID": 27197 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Oldfather, Irene", "ID": 1782, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Cunninghame South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Irene Oldfather", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Oldfather: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 361.0, "ContributionID": 713698, "EditedText": "Further to the minister's reply, which agreed to legislation, can he give Parliament an indication of his proposed time scale, as a bill has now been published that prohibits fur farming in England and Wales?", "EditedTextHTML": "Further to the minister's reply, which agreed to legislation, can he give Parliament an indication of his proposed time scale, as a bill has now been published that prohibits fur farming in England and Wales?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5763323+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2122E6P19C713700", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27196, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27197, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 258.0, "QuestionHeading": "Teachers", "QuestionHeadingID": 27210, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 365.0, "DisplayOrder": 365.0, "ID": 27210, "ParentID": 27197 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay", "ID": 2122, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lyndsay McIntosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "13. Mrs Lyndsay McIntosh (Central Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 366.0, "ContributionID": 713700, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has to improve the morale of teachers in North Lanarkshire. (S1O-814) The Deputy Minister for Children and Education (Peter Peacock): Our aim is to develop a stronger, more self-confident teaching profession throughout Scotland, through, among other things, our proposals for continuing professional development and the work of the McCrone committee.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has to improve the morale of teachers in North Lanarkshire. (S1O-814) The Deputy Minister for Children and Education (Peter Peacock): Our aim is to develop a stronger, more self-confident teaching profession throughout Scotland, through, among other things, our proposals for continuing professional development and the work of the McCrone committee.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2112E192P495C713704", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27196, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27197, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 258.0, "QuestionHeading": "Airport Rail Links", "QuestionHeadingID": 27211, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 372.0, "DisplayOrder": 372.0, "ID": 27211, "ParentID": 27197 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacAskill, Kenny", "ID": 2112, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenny MacAskill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr MacAskill: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 375.0, "ContributionID": 713704, "EditedText": "Is the minister aware of the report that was published in September 1997 by the Association of European Airlines that indicated that there should be rail links to airports that have a traffic volume of around 3 million passengers? That report also indicated that the only two international airports on the mainland of the United Kingdom that did not fit that criterion were Edinburgh and Glasgow. Those airports now have passenger turnover of approximately 6 million per annum and £54.6 million was paid in air passenger duty last year. Surely it is lamentable that there is still no rail link to either of those airports, which serve 6 million passengers.", "EditedTextHTML": "Is the minister aware of the report that was published in September 1997 by the Association of European Airlines that indicated

that there should be rail links to airports that have a traffic volume of around 3 million passengers? That report also indicated that the only two international airports on the mainland of the United Kingdom that did not fit that criterion were Edinburgh and Glasgow. Those airports now have passenger turnover of approximately 6 million per annum and £54.6 million was paid in air passenger duty last year. Surely it is lamentable that there is still no rail link to either of those airports, which serve 6 million passengers.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1996E124P211C713708", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27196, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27197, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 258.0, "QuestionHeading": "Convention of Scottish Local Authorities", "QuestionHeadingID": 27212, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "DisplayOrder": 379.0, "ID": 27212, "ParentID": 27197 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAveety, Mr Frank", "ID": 1996, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Shettleston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Local Government", "SpeakerName": "Frank McAveety", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McAveety: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 384.0, "ContributionID": 713708, "EditedText": "I thank Mr Harding for his crocodile tears about the alleged plight of many folk across Scotland—Interruption. I will get to the answer if members from the Scottish National party extend the courtesy of allowing folk to get to the end of answers without interruption. Such interruptions are a common occurrence in this Parliament. We believe that yesterday's settlement was fine and fair and we want to work in conjunction with local authorities to ensure that we deliver changes. I remind the chamber that many folk from the SNP yesterday complained about council tax increases. Last year, they advocated greater increases for many places in Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank Mr Harding for his crocodile tears about the alleged plight of many folk across Scotland—[Interruption.] I will get to the answer if members from the Scottish National party extend the courtesy of allowing folk to get to the end of answers without interruption. Such interruptions are a common occurrence in this Parliament.

We believe that yesterday's settlement was fine and fair and we want to work in conjunction with local authorities to ensure that we deliver changes. I remind the chamber that many folk from the SNP yesterday complained about council tax increases.

Last year, they advocated greater increases for many places in Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1873E89P171C713709", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27196, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27197, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 258.0, "QuestionHeading": "Concessionary Fares", "QuestionHeadingID": 27213, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 386.0, "DisplayOrder": 386.0, "ID": 27213, "ParentID": 27197 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jackson, Dr Sylvia", "ID": 1873, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Stirling" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sylvia Jackson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "16. Dr Sylvia Jackson (Stirling) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 387.0, "ContributionID": 713709, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive how much local authorities spent in the year 1999-2000 on concessionary fares for bus, rail and ferry services in Scotland. (S1O-801) The Minister for Transport and the Environment (Sarah Boyack): The Scottish Executive does not hold the information requested for the current financial year. The provisional outturn expenditure for concessionary travel schemes that are operated by local authorities for the 1998-99 financial year is £41.6 million.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive how much local authorities spent in the year 1999-2000 on concessionary fares for bus, rail and ferry services in Scotland. (S1O-801) The Minister for Transport and the Environment (Sarah Boyack): The Scottish Executive does not hold the information requested for the current financial year. The provisional outturn expenditure for concessionary travel schemes that are operated by local authorities for the 1998-99 financial year is £41.6 million.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C713714", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27196, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27197, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 258.0, "QuestionHeading": "Polio Centre", "QuestionHeadingID": 27214, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 393.0, "DisplayOrder": 393.0, "ID": 27214, "ParentID": 27197 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 398.0, "ContributionID": 713714, "EditedText": "I am very much aware of the condition now known as post-polio syndrome and of the views expressed by individuals and organisations on that. I have looked carefully at the issue and I believe that the current NHS provision meets those needs. It is worth noting that there have been no new cases of polio in Scotland for two years and it is more than 30 years since there was an epidemic. That is a testament to our immunisation programmes over the years. I hope we can say the same in the future about meningitis C.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am very much aware of the condition now known as post-polio syndrome and of the views expressed by individuals and organisations on that. I have looked carefully at the issue and I believe that the current NHS provision meets those needs.

It is worth noting that there have been no new cases of polio in Scotland for two years and it is

more than 30 years since there was an epidemic. That is a testament to our immunisation programmes over the years. I hope we can say the same in the future about meningitis C.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C713717", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27196, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27197, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 258.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Trade and Industry(Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27215, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 400.0, "DisplayOrder": 400.0, "ID": 27215, "ParentID": 27197 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 405.0, "ContributionID": 713717, "EditedText": "That was debated during the passage of the devolution legislation and it was at the urging of Scottish business that it was decided to leave those matters on a United Kingdom basis. As far as the general situation is concerned, there are examples of mergers and of failures and successes. The important thing about the Scottish economy is that we are ahead of the pace, with the lowest unemployment claimant count for well over 20 years and low and stable inflation. When I talk to people either in manufacturing or in the service sector, particularly financial services, they say that the economy is supporting their efforts more effectively than for decades.", "EditedTextHTML": "That was debated during the passage of the devolution legislation and it was at the urging of Scottish business that it was decided to leave those matters on a United Kingdom basis. As far as the general situation is concerned, there are examples of mergers and of failures and successes. The important thing about the Scottish economy is that we are ahead of the pace, with the lowest unemployment claimant count for well over 20 years and low and stable inflation. When I talk to people either in manufacturing or in the service sector, particularly financial services, they say that the economy is supporting their efforts more effectively than for decades.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2056E57P84C713722", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27196, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27197, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 258.0, "QuestionHeading": "Local Government Boundaries", "QuestionHeadingID": 27217, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 414.0, "DisplayOrder": 414.0, "ID": 27217, "ParentID": 27197 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James", "ID": 2056, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "James Douglas-Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Lord Douglas-Hamilton: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 417.0, "ContributionID": 713722, "EditedText": "Is the minister aware that, in the past, local government boundaries have been influenced by the position of parliamentary boundaries? If the numbers in this Parliament are reduced by a fifth, as is planned under current legislation, that could have a big impact on the manning of committees and would hardly be a signal of confidence in the Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "Is the minister aware that, in the past, local government boundaries have been influenced by the position of parliamentary boundaries? If the numbers in this Parliament are reduced by a fifth, as is planned under current legislation, that could have a big impact on the manning of committees and would hardly be a signal of confidence in the Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C713727", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27218, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 421.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27219, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 422.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27220, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 423.0, "DisplayOrder": 423.0, "ID": 27220, "ParentID": 27219 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 430.0, "ContributionID": 713727, "EditedText": "The First Minister has managed to pay that tribute without telling Parliament why Mr Rafferty was sacked. Why was he sacked? Will the First Minister accept that what is required is not just a change of personnel, but a change of political culture? Will he accept responsibility for allowing a culture to develop in which statements can be made selectively to the press, rather than to this Parliament, and in which members of parliamentary committees can be rubbished by one of many Government sources as \"numpties\" when they publish their reports? Will he tell us, in the interests of freedom of information, which of the many Government sources described the Parliament's Health and Community Care Committee in those terms? Does he know, does he care and is he capable of doing anything about it?", "EditedTextHTML": "The First Minister has managed to pay that tribute without telling Parliament why Mr

Rafferty was sacked. Why was he sacked? Will the First Minister accept that what is required is not just a change of personnel, but a change of political culture? Will he accept responsibility for allowing a culture to develop in which statements can be made selectively to the press, rather than to this Parliament, and in which members of parliamentary committees can be rubbished by one of many Government sources as \"numpties\" when they publish their reports? Will he tell us, in the interests of freedom of information, which of the many Government sources described the Parliament's Health and Community Care Committee in those terms? Does he know, does he care and is he capable of doing anything about it?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713732", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27218, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 421.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27219, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 422.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27220, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 423.0, "DisplayOrder": 423.0, "ID": 27220, "ParentID": 27219 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 440.0, "ContributionID": 713732, "EditedText": "Order.", "EditedTextHTML": "Order.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713734", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27218, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 421.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27219, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 422.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27220, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 423.0, "DisplayOrder": 423.0, "ID": 27220, "ParentID": 27219 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 444.0, "ContributionID": 713734, "EditedText": "The First Minister is not responsible for that matter.", "EditedTextHTML": "The First Minister is not responsible for that matter.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C713735", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27218, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 421.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27219, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 422.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27220, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 423.0, "DisplayOrder": 423.0, "ID": 27220, "ParentID": 27219 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 446.0, "ContributionID": 713735, "EditedText": "This is, of course, anabsolutely fascinating subject for speculation, which is made all the more difficult by the fact that there is no obvious candidate to replace Alex Salmond.", "EditedTextHTML": "This is, of course, an

absolutely fascinating subject for speculation, which is made all the more difficult by the fact that there is no obvious candidate to replace Alex Salmond.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C713738", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27218, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 421.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27219, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 422.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27220, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 423.0, "DisplayOrder": 423.0, "ID": 27220, "ParentID": 27219 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 452.0, "ContributionID": 713738, "EditedText": "I wonder whether the First Minister and the secretary of state discussed reviewing the bloated size of the Scottish Administration and its retinue of advisers, who clearly have very little to do with their time other than fight like ferrets in a sack. Now that one ferret has been dismissed, can the First Minister advise us whether others will follow, in the interests of improving the efficiency of government in Scotland?", "EditedTextHTML": "I wonder whether the First Minister and the secretary of state discussed reviewing the bloated size of the Scottish Administration and its retinue of advisers, who clearly have very little to do with their time other than fight like ferrets in a sack. Now that one ferret has been dismissed, can the First Minister advise us whether others will follow, in the interests of improving the efficiency of government in Scotland?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C713739", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27218, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 421.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27219, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 422.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27220, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 423.0, "DisplayOrder": 423.0, "ID": 27220, "ParentID": 27219 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 454.0, "ContributionID": 713739, "EditedText": "I said that this has been a difficult business involving serious people and matters. To describe someone as a ferret does not seem to be a great contribution to the civilised handling of these matters. There were circumstances that led me to believe that it was right for me to take the actions that I did. The matter is a private one, which, I hope, was pursued with dignity by both sides.", "EditedTextHTML": "I said that this has been a difficult business involving serious people and matters. To describe someone as a ferret does not seem to be a great contribution to the civilised handling of these matters. There were circumstances that led me to believe that it was right for me to take the actions that I did. The matter is a private one, which, I hope, was pursued with dignity by both sides.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C713742", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27218, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 421.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27219, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 422.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27220, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 423.0, "DisplayOrder": 423.0, "ID": 27220, "ParentID": 27219 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan (Falkirk West): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 460.0, "ContributionID": 713742, "EditedText": "Why should the taxpayer have to fork out more than £150,000 a year to enable the First Minister to employ not just one, but two spin-doctors, especially when, over the past week or so, one of them seems to have spent much of his time spinning stories about the other one? Is it any wonder that a massive number of people hope that it is one down and one to go?", "EditedTextHTML": "Why should the taxpayer have to fork out more than £150,000 a year to enable the First Minister to employ not just one, but two spin-doctors, especially when, over the past week or so, one of them seems to have spent much of his time spinning stories about the other one? Is it any wonder that a massive number of people hope that it is one down and one to go?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C713743", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27218, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 421.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27219, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 422.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27220, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 423.0, "DisplayOrder": 423.0, "ID": 27220, "ParentID": 27219 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 462.0, "ContributionID": 713743, "EditedText": "I understand that Mr Canavan has every interest in exploiting this situation. He does not know the difference between a spin-doctor and a special adviser. I challenge anyone in the chamber to name me a sophisticated Administration that does not have adequate press advice and the equivalent of special advisers. It does not help to reduce the matter to caricature terms, as Mr Canavan attempts to do.", "EditedTextHTML": "I understand that Mr Canavan has every interest in exploiting this situation. He does not know the difference between a spin-doctor and a special adviser. I challenge anyone in the chamber to name me a sophisticated Administration that does not have adequate press advice and the equivalent of special advisers. It does not help to reduce the matter to caricature terms, as Mr Canavan attempts to do.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C713744", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27218, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 421.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27219, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 422.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27220, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 423.0, "DisplayOrder": 423.0, "ID": 27220, "ParentID": 27219 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 464.0, "ContributionID": 713744, "EditedText": "Can I say to the First Minister—", "EditedTextHTML": "Can I say to the First Minister—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713745", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27218, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 421.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27219, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 422.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27220, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 423.0, "DisplayOrder": 423.0, "ID": 27220, "ParentID": 27219 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 466.0, "ContributionID": 713745, "EditedText": "No, you cannot.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, you cannot.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C713746", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27218, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 421.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27219, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 422.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27220, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 423.0, "DisplayOrder": 423.0, "ID": 27220, "ParentID": 27219 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 468.0, "ContributionID": 713746, "EditedText": "Can I ask the First Minister—I would certainly very much like to, although I will not ignore the Presiding Officer as the First Minister did a moment ago—whether he is aware that in the previous Administration there were only three such advisers, whereas he has 50, I think, stretched across the whole Executive?", "EditedTextHTML": "Can I ask the First Minister—I would certainly very much like to, although I will not ignore the Presiding Officer as the First Minister did a moment ago—whether he is aware that in the previous Administration there were only three such advisers, whereas he has 50, I think, stretched across the whole Executive?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C713749", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27218, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 421.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27219, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 422.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27220, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 423.0, "DisplayOrder": 423.0, "ID": 27220, "ParentID": 27219 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 474.0, "ContributionID": 713749, "EditedText": "I am not in the habit of taking on staff for the sake of it. I always use my judgment to ensure that people who are employed are employed for good reasons to do important jobs, and I will hold to that.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am not in the habit of taking on staff for the sake of it. I always use my judgment to ensure that people who are employed are employed for good reasons to do important jobs, and I will hold to that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2123E103P242C713754", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27218, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 421.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27219, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 422.0, "QuestionHeading": "Public Services", "QuestionHeadingID": 27221, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 476.0, "DisplayOrder": 476.0, "ID": 27221, "ParentID": 27219 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Chisholm, Malcolm", "ID": 2123, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh North and Leith" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Malcolm Chisholm", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 485.0, "ContributionID": 713754, "EditedText": "Will the Minister for Finance provide the SNP with a maths teacher—Mr Canavan springs to mind—to explain to its members that if one starts with a higher base and gets the same expenditure boost as from a lower base, the higher base necessarily creates a lower percentage increase?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the Minister for Finance provide the SNP with a maths teacher—Mr Canavan springs to mind—to explain to its members that if one starts with a higher base and gets the same expenditure boost as from a lower base, the higher base necessarily creates a lower percentage increase?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C713759", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27218, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 421.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27219, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 422.0, "QuestionHeading": "Public Services", "QuestionHeadingID": 27221, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 476.0, "DisplayOrder": 476.0, "ID": 27221, "ParentID": 27219 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 495.0, "ContributionID": 713759, "EditedText": "I may have been a mathematics teacher, and my arithmetic and algebra were both very good, but I am afraid that I have had problems with exponential functions as a pupil, a student and a teacher. Laughter. However, I will certainly try to do what Dr Simpson suggests and will publish the results in due course.", "EditedTextHTML": "I may have been a mathematics teacher, and my arithmetic and algebra were both very good, but I am afraid that I have had problems with exponential functions as a pupil, a student and a teacher. [Laughter.] However, I will certainly try to do what Dr Simpson suggests and will publish the results in due course.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713764", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27218, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 421.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27219, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 422.0, "QuestionHeading": "Public Services", "QuestionHeadingID": 27221, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 476.0, "DisplayOrder": 476.0, "ID": 27221, "ParentID": 27219 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 505.0, "ContributionID": 713764, "EditedText": "That concludes question time.", "EditedTextHTML": "That concludes question time.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C713765", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27218, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 421.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27219, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 422.0, "QuestionHeading": "Public Services", "QuestionHeadingID": 27221, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 476.0, "DisplayOrder": 476.0, "ID": 27221, "ParentID": 27219 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 507.0, "ContributionID": 713765, "EditedText": "On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I draw your attention to a matter of which I have already given notice to you and to the Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs, Mr John Home Robertson. It refers to an issue that I raised in yesterday's debate, when I queried nephrops allocations for the Clyde fishing area—", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I draw your attention to a matter of which I have already given notice to you and to the Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs, Mr John Home Robertson. It refers to an issue that I raised in yesterday's debate, when I queried nephrops allocations for the Clyde fishing area—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713768", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27222, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 511.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 511.0, "ID": 27222, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 513.0, "ContributionID": 713768, "EditedText": "We move to the resumed debate, which we were in the middle of when we adjourned for lunch and question time. The next speaker is Gordon Jackson. Interruption. Would those members who are not taking part in the debate please leave quietly.", "EditedTextHTML": "We move to the resumed debate, which we were in the middle of when we adjourned for lunch and question time. The next speaker is Gordon Jackson. [Interruption.] Would those members who are not taking part in the debate please leave quietly.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2123E103P242C713774", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27222, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 511.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 511.0, "ID": 27222, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Chisholm, Malcolm", "ID": 2123, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh North and Leith" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Malcolm Chisholm", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 530.0, "ContributionID": 713774, "EditedText": "I begin by congratulating the Justice and Home Affairs Committee on a superbly impressive report. In my years at Westminster, I have never seen such thorough and effective work on a bill before the first Parliament debate. We should all be proud of the Parliament's new procedures and the effective work being done by all its committees. I also congratulate the Executive on introducing the bill.Most parts of the bill are universally welcome. I want to focus on its medical aspects. The bill addresses the current lack of clarity, which the Minister for Justice mentioned this morning. In some cases, the lack of clarity has resulted in no treatment being given. I am delighted by the amendment on research. I welcome the fact that artificial nutrition and hydration are to be taken out of the definition of medical treatment, resulting in a broad definition. That ought to deal with the serious concerns that have been raised by a range of organisations. I look forward to receiving their detailed responses to the amendment. We should no longer need to discuss euthanasia in connection with the bill, although many interesting questions about euthanasia were raised in evidence. We should deal with them on another occasion. During the evidence taking by the Justice and Home Affairs Committee and the Health and Community Care Committee, I was struck by the confusion about whether it is necessary to go to court to withdraw hydration and nutrition. As I said this morning, I must disagree with the Executive's significant change to the balance between medical opinion and that of a proxy. As there is now no issue surrounding hydration and nutrition, it is unnecessary to change section 47 as the Executive proposes. The change goes much further than was suggested even by medical opinion—neither the BMA nor my colleague, Richard Simpson, suggested it. We all received a briefing from Alzheimer Scotland, which made it clear that \"any challenge should have to be made by the doctor\".In other words, the decision should rest with the welfare attorney or guardian. Alzheimer Scotland goes on to discuss \"inappropriately prescribed or over-prescribed neuroleptic drugs\" and says that \"when carers ask for medication to be reviewed they are often refused and their views disregarded.\" That situation will be made worse by what was proposed this morning. More serious opposition will come from campaigners for people with learning difficulties. Those who are currently tutors dative will lose the rights that they have. One person has approached me about the matter and I know that she will be very angry about the Executive's announcement. She was told 28 years ago by doctors that she should put her daughter into Gogarburn hospital. She has looked after her daughter all that time, resisting certain epileptic drugs doctors have tried to give her because she knew what effect they would have on her daughter's stomach. What doctor knows better what is good for her daughter? We all know that medicine is not an exact science—it changes from year to year and even month to month. At stage 2, I will lodge an amendment to deal with that matter. Furthermore, the fact that electroconvulsive therapy can be given with a second medical opinion, against the wishes of a proxy, is another matter that is totally unacceptable.", "EditedTextHTML": "I begin by congratulating the Justice and Home Affairs Committee on a superbly impressive report. In my years at Westminster, I have never seen such thorough and effective work on a bill before the first Parliament debate. We should all be proud of the Parliament's new procedures and the effective work being done by all its committees. I also congratulate the

Executive on introducing the bill.

Most parts of the bill are universally welcome. I want to focus on its medical aspects. The bill addresses the current lack of clarity, which the Minister for Justice mentioned this morning. In some cases, the lack of clarity has resulted in no treatment being given.

I am delighted by the amendment on research. I welcome the fact that artificial nutrition and hydration are to be taken out of the definition of medical treatment, resulting in a broad definition. That ought to deal with the serious concerns that have been raised by a range of organisations. I look forward to receiving their detailed responses to the amendment.

We should no longer need to discuss euthanasia in connection with the bill, although many interesting questions about euthanasia were raised in evidence. We should deal with them on another occasion. During the evidence taking by the Justice and Home Affairs Committee and the Health and Community Care Committee, I was struck by the confusion about whether it is necessary to go to court to withdraw hydration and nutrition.

As I said this morning, I must disagree with the Executive's significant change to the balance between medical opinion and that of a proxy. As there is now no issue surrounding hydration and nutrition, it is unnecessary to change section 47 as the Executive proposes. The change goes much further than was suggested even by medical opinion—neither the BMA nor my colleague, Richard Simpson, suggested it.

We all received a briefing from Alzheimer Scotland, which made it clear that

\"any challenge should have to be made by the doctor\".

In other words, the decision should rest with the welfare attorney or guardian. Alzheimer Scotland goes on to discuss

\"inappropriately prescribed or over-prescribed neuroleptic drugs\" and says that

\"when carers ask for medication to be reviewed they are often refused and their views disregarded.\"

That situation will be made worse by what was proposed this morning.

More serious opposition will come from campaigners for people with learning difficulties. Those who are currently tutors dative will lose the rights that they have. One person has approached me about the matter and I know that she will be very angry about the Executive's announcement. She was told 28 years ago by doctors that she should put her daughter into Gogarburn hospital. She has looked after her daughter all that time,

resisting certain epileptic drugs doctors have tried to give her because she knew what effect they would have on her daughter's stomach. What doctor knows better what is good for her daughter?

We all know that medicine is not an exact science—it changes from year to year and even month to month. At stage 2, I will lodge an amendment to deal with that matter. Furthermore, the fact that electroconvulsive therapy can be given with a second medical opinion, against the wishes of a proxy, is another matter that is totally unacceptable.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1805E13P109C713776", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27222, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 511.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 511.0, "ID": 27222, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Whitefield, Karen", "ID": 1805, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Airdrie and Shotts" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Karen Whitefield", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Karen Whitefield (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 536.0, "ContributionID": 713776, "EditedText": "I welcome the opportunity to contribute to today's debate. I have a long-standing interest in the bill. I am pleased that the Scottish Executive has recognised the deficiencies in the current legislation concerning adults with incapacity, and the confusion surrounding it. Placing this bill before Parliament at such an early stage of the legislative programme demonstrates the Executive's understanding of the severity of the problems facing people who are affected by current legislation. I believe that the bill represents a genuine and successful attempt to alleviate the problems facing adults with incapacity and their carers. It seeks to balance the concerns of those who opposed elements of the Scottish Law Commission's original draft bill with the overwhelming need for change to current legislation. Existing legislation is fragmented and archaic. As we heard this morning, some of it dates back hundreds of years. The trail of legislation through history has resulted in a system that lacks any semblance of coherence or structure. The diversity and complexity of applicable legislation is widely regarded as causing unnecessary disadvantage to vulnerable people. Even those who have concerns about the bill generally accept the need for reform. I recognise and understand those concerns and I hope that the Minister for Justice and the Minister for Health and Community Care will help to alleviate such fears and bring about unanimity regarding the benefits of the bill. We should no longer be forced to endure legislation that, among other things, leads to the freezing of joint bank accounts when carers are already facing the most extreme difficulties and pressures. Measures in the bill will address such practical problems and help to alleviate the stress faced by carers of incapable adults. I believe that the general principles—as laid out in part 1—provide a firm and humane foundation for new legislation. Within those principles, the rights of the adults concerned are given priority. Indeed, there is now a duty to use and develop— where reasonably practical—adults' skills in relation to the management of their welfare. Of the estimated 100,000 people who lack capacity in some or all areas of their lives, around 60,000 suffer from some form of dementia. The continued increase in the number of older people in society, coupled with the higher incidence of dementia in that age group, means that the problem can only get worse. Alzheimer Scotland's report to the Royal Commission on Long Term Care of the Elderly predicts that, by the middle of the next century, more than 100,000 Scottish people will suffer from dementia. The need for continuing research into the causes, cures and treatments of dementia is evident. I hope that that is borne in mind during the various stages of the bill and that the final version places priority on the needs and care of the sufferer and is not overly restrictive. The passing of this bill will prove that the Scottish Parliament is able to respond to the real needs of the Scottish people. Existing legislation causes misery, suffering and indignity to countless families around the country. National and local organisations throughout Britain have been calling for changes to existing legislation for many years. We in Scotland have the opportunity to pave the way towards a legal system that genuinely enhances the rights of adults with incapacity and their carers. I urge everyone in the chamber to support the bill.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the opportunity to contribute to today's debate. I have a long-standing interest in the bill.

I am pleased that the Scottish Executive has recognised the deficiencies in the current legislation concerning adults with incapacity, and the confusion surrounding it. Placing this bill before Parliament at such an early stage of the legislative programme demonstrates the Executive's understanding of the severity of the problems facing people who are affected by current legislation.

I believe that the bill represents a genuine and successful attempt to alleviate the problems facing adults with incapacity and their carers. It seeks to balance the concerns of those who opposed elements of the Scottish Law Commission's original draft bill with the overwhelming need for change to current legislation. Existing legislation is fragmented and archaic. As we heard this morning, some of it dates back hundreds of years. The trail of legislation through history has resulted in a system that lacks any semblance of coherence or structure.

The diversity and complexity of applicable legislation is widely regarded as causing

unnecessary disadvantage to vulnerable people. Even those who have concerns about the bill generally accept the need for reform. I recognise and understand those concerns and I hope that the Minister for Justice and the Minister for Health and Community Care will help to alleviate such fears and bring about unanimity regarding the benefits of the bill.

We should no longer be forced to endure legislation that, among other things, leads to the freezing of joint bank accounts when carers are already facing the most extreme difficulties and pressures. Measures in the bill will address such practical problems and help to alleviate the stress faced by carers of incapable adults.

I believe that the general principles—as laid out in part 1—provide a firm and humane foundation for new legislation. Within those principles, the rights of the adults concerned are given priority. Indeed, there is now a duty to use and develop— where reasonably practical—adults' skills in relation to the management of their welfare.

Of the estimated 100,000 people who lack capacity in some or all areas of their lives, around 60,000 suffer from some form of dementia. The continued increase in the number of older people in society, coupled with the higher incidence of dementia in that age group, means that the problem can only get worse. Alzheimer Scotland's report to the Royal Commission on Long Term Care of the Elderly predicts that, by the middle of the next century, more than 100,000 Scottish people will suffer from dementia. The need for continuing research into the causes, cures and treatments of dementia is evident. I hope that that is borne in mind during the various stages of the bill and that the final version places priority on the needs and care of the sufferer and is not overly restrictive.

The passing of this bill will prove that the Scottish Parliament is able to respond to the real needs of the Scottish people. Existing legislation causes misery, suffering and indignity to countless families around the country. National and local organisations throughout Britain have been calling for changes to existing legislation for many years. We in Scotland have the opportunity to pave the way towards a legal system that genuinely enhances the rights of adults with incapacity and their carers. I urge everyone in the chamber to support the bill.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713813", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27224, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 596.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 596.0, "ID": 27224, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 620.0, "ContributionID": 713813, "EditedText": "The third question is, that motion S1M-213, in the name of Mr Jim Wallace, on the general principles of the Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill, be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "The third question is, that motion S1M-213, in the name of Mr Jim Wallace, on the general principles of the Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill, be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1985E207P501C713778", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27222, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 511.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 511.0, "ID": 27222, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hamilton, Mr Duncan", "ID": 1985, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Duncan Hamilton (Highlands and Islands) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 542.0, "ContributionID": 713778, "EditedText": "I join members in welcoming the bill and commend the Justice and Home Affairs Committee for its work. Unlike Malcolm Chisholm, I have not had that many years' experience of ploughing though committee reports, but having read this one I feel that there is a great deal in it that merits re-emphasis. I make no apology for re-emphasising one or two specific points today. My first point relates to the definition of mental disorder, which is a debate that has been running in the chamber for some time. I am acutely aware of the position of the Millan committee and others on this matter. Nevertheless, the report makes it clear that the need for as broad a definition as possible of the so-called threshold test should be re-examined. The example that is often used is brain damage caused by an accident or stroke. We must ensure that people who are rendered incapable in those circumstances are not excluded from the process. Mr Chisholm also remarked that the debate on euthanasia is perhaps not one that we should be having any more. I do not agree. The bill is not watertight. The range of opinions that we have heard today makes it clear that there is some confusion, even in the chamber, about what the bill could mean in that respect. I associate myself with the remarks made by Roseanna Cunnigham, Gordon Jackson and Margaret Smith. I fully accept that the Executive's intention is to disallow euthanasia by the front door, the back door or any other means, but that being the case, I cannot for the life of me understand why that is not simply specified. There may come a point when we want to discuss euthanasia in the chamber, but that is not what we are trying to achieve with this bill. If we want any semblance of euthanasia categorically to be removed from statute, we should say so explicitly. I cannot see what the problem is. On the health aspects of the bill, it is worth picking up on one of the points made by the Royal College of Nursing and the BMA in their submissions. The difference between clinical and medical treatment seems to me to be a lot more than simply semantic. If the potential for omission remains, there is the potential when treatment is withdrawn for nursing care to be withdrawn too, simply because nursing is in the same section. It would be useful to clarify exactly what we mean. Clinical care is a better term than medical care because it encapsulates the important role that the nursing profession plays in the treatment of patients. Rather than putting that point in my own words, I quote Dr Wilks of the BMA, who said when giving evidence: \"We have made it absolutely explicit that the process leading to, and the decision to withdraw or withhold treatment, should be consensual among doctors, nurses and the family. We also understand clearly that when a decision has been made to withdraw or withhold treatment of any type, it is primarily the nurses who have to pick up the consequences of that decision for short-term or long- term nursing.\"—Official Report, Justice and Home Affairs Committee, 17 November 1999; c 392-93. It is also important to recognise that the nursing profession's immediate responsibilities are governed by a clear professional code of conduct. Professionals could be led into conflict if the legislation is not nailed down. It would be a sad state of affairs if we put the people who are at the coal face of providing essential services into such a difficult position. The bill is to be welcomed. I do not think that there is in any sense a party political slant on it. While the Executive has made some steps towards accepting the concessions the committee recommended, further action could be taken on the specific areas I have mentioned.", "EditedTextHTML": "I join members in welcoming the bill and commend the Justice and Home Affairs Committee for its work. Unlike Malcolm Chisholm, I have not had that many years' experience of ploughing though committee reports, but having read this one I feel that there is a great deal in it that merits re-emphasis. I make no apology for re-emphasising one or two specific points today.

My first point relates to the definition of mental disorder, which is a debate that has been running in the chamber for some time. I am acutely aware of the position of the Millan committee and others on this matter. Nevertheless, the report makes it clear that the need for as broad a definition as possible of the so-called threshold test should be re-examined. The example that is often used is brain damage caused by an accident or stroke. We must ensure that people who are rendered incapable in those circumstances are not excluded from the process.

Mr Chisholm also remarked that the debate on euthanasia is perhaps not one that we should be having any more. I do not agree. The bill is not watertight. The range of opinions that we have heard today makes it clear that there is some confusion, even in the chamber, about what the bill could mean in that respect.

I associate myself with the remarks made by Roseanna Cunnigham, Gordon Jackson and Margaret Smith. I fully accept that the Executive's intention is to disallow euthanasia by the front door, the back door or any other means, but that being the case, I cannot for the life of me understand why that is not simply specified. There may come a point when we want to discuss euthanasia in the chamber, but that is not what we are trying to achieve with this bill. If we want any semblance of euthanasia categorically to be removed from statute, we should say so explicitly. I cannot see what the problem is.

On the health aspects of the bill, it is worth picking up on one of the points made by the Royal College of Nursing and the BMA in their submissions. The difference between clinical and medical treatment seems to me to be a lot more than simply semantic. If the potential for omission remains, there is the potential when treatment is withdrawn for nursing care to be withdrawn too, simply because nursing is in the same section. It would be useful to clarify exactly what we mean. Clinical care is a better term than medical care because it encapsulates the important role that the nursing profession plays in the treatment of patients.

Rather than putting that point in my own words, I quote Dr Wilks of the BMA, who said when giving evidence:

\"We have made it absolutely explicit that the process leading to, and the decision to withdraw or withhold treatment, should be consensual among doctors, nurses and the family. We also understand clearly that when a decision has been made to withdraw or withhold treatment of any type, it is primarily the nurses who have to pick up the consequences of that decision for short-term or long- term nursing.\"—[Official Report, Justice and Home Affairs Committee, 17 November 1999; c 392-93.]

It is also important to recognise that the nursing profession's immediate responsibilities are governed by a clear professional code of conduct. Professionals could be led into conflict if the legislation is not nailed down. It would be a sad state of affairs if we put the people who are at the coal face of providing essential services into such a difficult position.

The bill is to be welcomed. I do not think that there is in any sense a party political slant on it. While the Executive has made some steps towards accepting the concessions the committee recommended, further action could be taken on the specific areas I have mentioned.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713803", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27224, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 596.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 596.0, "ID": 27224, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 604.0, "ContributionID": 713803, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1990E181P340C713784", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27222, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 511.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 511.0, "ID": 27222, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robson, Euan", "ID": 1990, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Roxburgh and Berwickshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Euan Robson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Euan Robson (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 560.0, "ContributionID": 713784, "EditedText": "The Justice and Home Affairs Committee report describes the bill as good; by the time it is enacted, it will be legislation that all members are proud of. The Liberal Democrat manifesto contained a commitment to such a bill, although of course other parties were similarly committed. The bill would not have come about without the efforts of many people before the Parliament was established; I mention particularly the alliance for the promotion of the incapable adults bill and the Scottish Law Commission. Jim Wallace rightly talked of the shared journey of developing this new legal framework. How a society treats its most vulnerable members is perhaps a mark of how civilised it is. In the past, we have fallen short in that. The fact that, within a year, the Scottish Parliament will have rectified a deficiency that affects more than 100,000 people is a demonstration of the strength of the devolution settlement. We may all be touched by this legislation, personally or through our relatives, as Jamie Stone eloquently said. The key principles embedded in the bill are that there should be appropriate efforts to communicate with the adult concerned; that whatever is done is for their direct benefit; that the least intrusive measure must be chosen to achieve that benefit; and that those close to the adult will have a right to be consulted. Having looked at the evidence to the Justice and Home Affairs Committee, I welcome some of the amendments that the Minister for Justice mentioned this morning. It is difficult to digest them all quickly, but it seems right that, in exceptional circumstances, the nearest relative should be removed from their legal position. As other members have said, it is clearly right that the category of spouse or partner should include partners of the same sex. I strongly agree that it is necessary to reform the handling of the general and financial affairs of incapable adults and accept the Minister for Justice's assurances that there will be stringent safeguards on managers of care establishments and others who look after residents' finances. However, I want to see exactly what the safeguards are. Part 5 has caused most comment to the Justice and Home Affairs Committee. As Jim Wallace and Roseanna Cunningham said this morning, it is unsatisfactory that, except in an emergency, there is no explicit authority for a doctor to treat a patient who is unable to give consent. It is important to change that. I welcome the clear opposition to euthanasia expressed by the Minister for Justice, which, I think, all members will share. When are the regulations under section 45 likely to be made? If we had at least draft regulations by stage 2, that would facilitate debate. I welcome the proposed changes to section 48. I welcome the simpler and more positive definition of medical treatment. Like Pauline McNeill, I agree with the cogent arguments that Professor Sheila McLean made at the Justice and Home Affairs Committee against placing a statutory duty of care on welfare attorneys and guardians. Des McNulty, who is no longer in the chamber, would be wise to look at what she said, as it clarified the issue. I have some difficulty with section 1(4)(a), which concerns living wills. I give weight to the Royal College of Nursing's evidence and feel that there are considerable difficulties in trying to take into account previous wishes when medical science may have moved a long way on. We will need to return to that matter and give it very careful consideration. I do not have an answer at this stage. I look forward to hearing what others say at stage 2, but I think that there are still some concerns about section 1(4)(a). If the minister has anything to add to what was said this morning, I will be grateful to hear it.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Justice and Home Affairs Committee report describes the bill as good; by the time it is enacted, it will be legislation that all members are proud of. The Liberal Democrat manifesto contained a commitment to such a bill, although of course other parties were similarly committed. The bill would not have come about without the efforts of many people before the Parliament was established; I mention particularly the alliance for the promotion of the incapable adults bill and the Scottish Law Commission. Jim Wallace rightly talked of the shared journey of developing this new legal framework.

How a society treats its most vulnerable members is perhaps a mark of how civilised it is. In the past, we have fallen short in that. The fact that, within a year, the Scottish Parliament will have rectified a deficiency that affects more than 100,000 people is a demonstration of the strength of the devolution settlement. We may all be touched by this legislation, personally or through our relatives, as Jamie Stone eloquently said.

The key principles embedded in the bill are that there should be appropriate efforts to communicate with the adult concerned; that whatever is done is for their direct benefit; that the least intrusive measure must be chosen to achieve that benefit; and that those close to the adult will have a right to be consulted.

Having looked at the evidence to the Justice and Home Affairs Committee, I welcome some of the amendments that the Minister for Justice mentioned this morning. It is difficult to digest them all quickly, but it seems right that, in exceptional circumstances, the nearest relative should be removed from their legal position. As other members have said, it is clearly right that the category of spouse or partner should include partners of the same sex. I strongly agree that it is necessary to reform the handling of the general and financial affairs of incapable adults and accept the Minister for Justice's assurances that there will be stringent safeguards on managers of care establishments and others who look after residents' finances. However, I want to see exactly what the safeguards are.

Part 5 has caused most comment to the Justice and Home Affairs Committee. As Jim Wallace and Roseanna Cunningham said this morning, it is unsatisfactory that, except in an emergency, there is no explicit authority for a doctor to treat a patient who is unable to give consent. It is important to change that. I welcome the clear opposition to euthanasia expressed by the Minister for Justice, which, I think, all members will share.

When are the regulations under section 45 likely to be made? If we had at least draft regulations by stage 2, that would facilitate debate. I welcome the proposed changes to section 48. I welcome the simpler and more positive definition of medical treatment. Like Pauline McNeill, I agree with the cogent arguments that Professor Sheila McLean made at the Justice and Home Affairs Committee against placing a statutory duty of care on welfare attorneys and guardians. Des McNulty, who is no longer in the chamber, would be wise to look at what she said, as it clarified the issue.

I have some difficulty with section 1(4)(a), which concerns living wills. I give weight to the Royal College of Nursing's evidence and feel that there are considerable difficulties in trying to take into account previous wishes when medical science may have moved a long way on. We will need to return to that matter and give it very careful consideration. I do not have an answer at this stage. I look forward to hearing what others say at stage 2, but I think that there are still some concerns about section 1(4)(a). If the minister has anything to add to what was said this morning, I will be grateful to hear it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C713785", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27222, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 511.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 511.0, "ID": 27222, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 563.0, "ContributionID": 713785, "EditedText": "This debate is a starting point for the bill, rather than even the first hurdle. We have taken the evidence, we have information before us, we have appraised what is, in the minds of many, a very good bill, but there is long way to go before it can come into force. Richard Simpson suggested that the need for change dated back as far as 1585—a time when there was another Scottish Parliament. That is noted. However, this process, involving the Scottish Law Commission, started in 1981. The previous Government considered this proposal in 1995 and decided to carry it forward. This Government, to its credit, took that onwards in 1997. It is now time to bring the recommendations to fruition. We must remember the principal aim of this bill, which is to make things better for people who suffer from incapacity—permanent incapacity, transient incapacity or progressive incapacity. Those are the people whose fundamental rights, to which Des McNulty referred, must be protected. Like Euan Robson, I want to pick up one of the features of this debate. All of us in the chamber today and all the members of the Justice and Home Affairs Committee have tended to concentrate on the medical and health issues, but the bill goes a lot further than that. We are talking about the everyday issues of life. When in section 1(4)(a) we read about \"the past and present wishes\"of individuals who have suffered incapacity, we need to remember that we are dealing not only with life-and-death issues, but with the material and all other aspects of those people's lives, such as where they wish their goods to go. We should bear that in mind when considering section 1(4)(a), important as the medical aspects are. The bill is about not only those who suffer from incapacity, but those who care for them. The carers are a very important aspect, as Karen Whitefield reminded us. It is important that their wishes are taken on board all the way through this process. There are many cases of children who have suffered incapacity and are living with an elderly parent. The great concern of the elderly parent is what will happen after their death to their child. I believe that the bill offers them a way forward. It offers them fresh hope, in that others can be identified to take on the mantle that they have borne for many years. The bill is unique, because it is not based on political interest or dogma. Every member of this Parliament has a chance to contribute to it. This is a chance to get legislation into place that means something and that can help people who are extremely vulnerable. To that extent, Fiona Hyslop's comment about the spirit of co-operation applies easily to this bill. Some members of the Justice and Home Affairs Committee will be more involved in the preparations for the bill's next stage than others. At this point, I would like to pay tribute to Roseanna Cunningham. She paid tribute to all the members of the Justice and Home Affairs Committee, and Malcolm Chisholm offered his commendations as well. Roseanna has taken us through this bill with great fairness and, at times, panache. Lyndsay McIntosh thought that there was always an element of humour, but there was also a firmness that put us in our place. A problem for Roseanna Cunningham was to get this bill through to a time scale. We recognised that that was important at stage 1, but we now move on to stage 2. The Justice and Home Affairs Committee must ensure that it does not face too much pressure to meet time scales. We should remember that stage 2 is a line-by-line examination of the bill, which contains a lot of words and much detail. Such an examination cannot be hurried. If the committee is put under pressure to meet a deadline, one could say that a form of guillotine was being imposed. We have to ensure that we do not bow to such pressures.", "EditedTextHTML": "This debate is a starting point for the bill, rather than even the first hurdle. We have taken the evidence, we have information before us, we have appraised what is, in the minds of many, a very good bill, but there is long way to go before it can come into force.

Richard Simpson suggested that the need for change dated back as far as 1585—a time when there was another Scottish Parliament. That is noted. However, this process, involving the Scottish Law Commission, started in 1981. The previous Government considered this proposal in 1995 and decided to carry it forward. This Government, to its credit, took that onwards in 1997. It is now time to bring the recommendations to fruition.

We must remember the principal aim of this bill, which is to make things better for people who suffer from incapacity—permanent incapacity, transient incapacity or progressive incapacity. Those are the people whose fundamental rights, to which Des McNulty referred, must be protected.

Like Euan Robson, I want to pick up one of the features of this debate. All of us in the chamber today and all the members of the Justice and Home Affairs Committee have tended to concentrate on the medical and health issues, but the bill goes a lot further than that. We are talking about the everyday issues of life. When in section 1(4)(a) we read about

\"the past and present wishes\"

of individuals who have suffered incapacity, we need to remember that we are dealing not only with life-and-death issues, but with the material and all other aspects of those people's lives, such as where they wish their goods to go. We should bear that in mind when considering section 1(4)(a), important as the medical aspects are.

The bill is about not only those who suffer from incapacity, but those who care for them. The carers are a very important aspect, as Karen Whitefield reminded us. It is important that their wishes are taken on board all the way through this process. There are many cases of children who have suffered incapacity and are living with an elderly parent. The great concern of the elderly parent is what will happen after their death to their child. I believe that the bill offers them a way forward. It offers them fresh hope, in that others can be identified to take on the mantle that they have borne for many years.

The bill is unique, because it is not based on political interest or dogma. Every member of this Parliament has a chance to contribute to it. This is a chance to get legislation into place that means something and that can help people who are extremely vulnerable. To that extent, Fiona Hyslop's comment about the spirit of co-operation applies easily to this bill.

Some members of the Justice and Home Affairs Committee will be more involved in the preparations for the bill's next stage than others. At this point, I would like to pay tribute to Roseanna Cunningham. She paid tribute to all the members of the Justice and Home Affairs Committee, and Malcolm Chisholm offered his commendations as well. Roseanna has taken us through this bill with great fairness and, at times, panache. Lyndsay McIntosh thought that there was always an element of humour, but there was also a firmness that put us in our place.

A problem for Roseanna Cunningham was to get this bill through to a time scale. We recognised that that was important at stage 1, but we now move on to stage 2. The Justice and Home Affairs Committee must ensure that it does not face too much pressure to meet time scales. We should remember that stage 2 is a line-by-line examination of the bill, which contains a lot of

words and much detail. Such an examination cannot be hurried. If the committee is put under pressure to meet a deadline, one could say that a form of guillotine was being imposed. We have to ensure that we do not bow to such pressures.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C713790", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27222, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 511.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 511.0, "ID": 27222, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 575.0, "ContributionID": 713790, "EditedText": "Will Susan Deacon give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Susan Deacon give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C713798", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill: Financial Resolution ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27223, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 583.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 583.0, "ID": 27223, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon (Minister for Health and Community Care): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 592.0, "ContributionID": 713798, "EditedText": "On a point of order. I want to apologise to all members. I could have gone on for considerably longer on the subject of incapable adults. However, as the clock had changed, I thought that I had been speaking for 16 minutes. I would like to bring that to the attention of other members of the Executive.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. I want to apologise to all members. I could have gone on for considerably longer on the subject of incapable adults. However, as the clock had changed, I thought that I had been speaking for 16 minutes. I would like to bring that to the attention of other members of the Executive.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713794", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill: Financial Resolution ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27223, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 583.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 583.0, "ID": 27223, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 584.0, "ContributionID": 713794, "EditedText": "The next item of business is the financial resolution, motion S1M-254, in relation to the Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill. I ask Jack McConnell to move that motion. Mr McConnell, you have no more than three minutes in which to do so.", "EditedTextHTML": "The next item of business is the financial resolution, motion S1M-254, in relation to the Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill. I ask Jack McConnell to move that motion. Mr McConnell, you have no more than three minutes in which to do so.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713808", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27224, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 596.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 596.0, "ID": 27224, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 613.0, "ContributionID": 713808, "EditedText": "I beg your pardon, I misread the handwriting. The result is: For 28, Against 73, Abstentions 4.", "EditedTextHTML": "I beg your pardon, I misread the handwriting. The result is: For 28, Against 73, Abstentions 4.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713818", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27224, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 596.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 596.0, "ID": 27224, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 627.0, "ContributionID": 713818, "EditedText": "That the Parliament agrees that the Food Protection (Emergency Prohibitions) (Amnesic Shellfish Poisoning) (West Coast) (No 4) (Scotland) Order 1999 (SSI 1999/143) be approved.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament agrees that the Food Protection (Emergency Prohibitions) (Amnesic Shellfish Poisoning) (West Coast) (No 4) (Scotland) Order 1999 (SSI 1999/143) be approved.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713824", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27224, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 596.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 596.0, "ID": 27224, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 635.0, "ContributionID": 713824, "EditedText": "That the Parliament, for the purposes of any Act of the Scottish Parliament resulting from the Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill, agrees to— (a) any increase attributable to that Act in the sums payable out of the Scottish Consolidated Fund by or under any other Act; (b) charges by the Public Guardian in connection with his functions under the Act.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament, for the purposes of any Act of the Scottish Parliament resulting from the Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill, agrees to— (a) any increase attributable to that Act in the sums payable out of the Scottish Consolidated Fund by or under any other Act; (b) charges by the Public Guardian in connection with his functions under the Act.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713827", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pollokshaws Sports Centre", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27225, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 636.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 636.0, "ID": 27225, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 640.0, "ContributionID": 713827, "EditedText": "That the Parliament recognises the importance of accessible sport and leisure facilities in communities around Scotland; notes with regret the decision of Glasgow City Council to close the well-used Pollokshaws Sports Centre and urges reversal of that decision, and calls upon the Scottish Executive to highlight the positive role that community sports facilities can play in combating social exclusion and improving the lives of people in our most deprived communities.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament recognises the importance of accessible sport and leisure facilities in communities around Scotland; notes with regret the decision of Glasgow City Council to close the well-used Pollokshaws Sports Centre and urges reversal of that decision, and calls upon the Scottish Executive to highlight the positive role that community sports facilities can play in combating social exclusion and improving the lives of people in our most deprived communities.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C713844", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pollokshaws Sports Centre", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27225, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 636.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 636.0, "ID": 27225, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 681.0, "ContributionID": 713844, "EditedText": "Will the deputy minister take an intervention?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the deputy minister take an intervention?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1862E99P179C713847", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pollokshaws Sports Centre", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27225, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 636.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 636.0, "ID": 27225, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Brankin, Rhona", "ID": 1862, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Midlothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Culture and Sport", "SpeakerName": "Rhona Brankin", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Rhona Brankin: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 687.0, "ContributionID": 713847, "EditedText": "No, thank you.A fabric survey of Pollokshaws in August 1997 indicated a requirement to spend a minimum of £265,000 on roof and other essential repairs. That figure did not include any costs related to the full structural survey that was required, nor did it take any account of the replacement of obsolete and inefficient pool plant.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, thank you.

A fabric survey of Pollokshaws in August 1997 indicated a requirement to spend a minimum of £265,000 on roof and other essential repairs. That figure did not include any costs related to the full structural survey that was required, nor did it take any account of the replacement of obsolete and inefficient pool plant.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1862E99P179C713849", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pollokshaws Sports Centre", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27225, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 636.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 636.0, "ID": 27225, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Brankin, Rhona", "ID": 1862, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Midlothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Culture and Sport", "SpeakerName": "Rhona Brankin", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Rhona Brankin: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 691.0, "ContributionID": 713849, "EditedText": "No thank you, Tommy—it is not worth the bother. Interruption. Presiding Officer, I would prefer not to be interrupted constantly by members shouting out.", "EditedTextHTML": "No thank you, Tommy—it is not worth the bother. [Interruption.]

Presiding Officer, I would prefer not to be interrupted constantly by members shouting out.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C713850", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pollokshaws Sports Centre", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27225, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 636.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 636.0, "ID": 27225, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 693.0, "ContributionID": 713850, "EditedText": "I do not find the remarks too intrusive, minister. Please continue.", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not find the remarks too intrusive, minister. Please continue.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1862E99P179C713853", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pollokshaws Sports Centre", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27225, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 636.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 636.0, "ID": 27225, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Brankin, Rhona", "ID": 1862, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Midlothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Culture and Sport", "SpeakerName": "Rhona Brankin", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Rhona Brankin: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 699.0, "ContributionID": 713853, "EditedText": "No, thank you.The provision of these facilities and others has seen almost £54 million allocated to sports centres in some of the most run-down areas of Glasgow. Sport 21 develops a vision of a new sporting environment in Scotland, in which access to quality facilities is convenient and affordable to all, in which Scotland's disadvantaged groups have equal and open access to sport and in which rural and remote communities are no longer isolated from mainstream Scottish sport. As one of its four key challenges, sport 21 recommends that local authorities should publish a strategic plan for sport and recreation that draws on the resources and efforts of all council services including leisure, education, planning, social work, economic development and other departments, as appropriate. I urge local authorities that have not yet done so to respond positively to that challenge. Sportscotland's lottery sports fund began distributing funds in January 1995 and has made 525 awards under its capital programme up to 1 December this year. The awards total almost £85 million—funding that has stimulated an overall expenditure programme of some £246 million on sports facilities in Scotland. Levelling the playing field, the new lottery strategy, is placing even greater emphasis on local neighbourhood provision by opening up school facilities for use by local communities. Within that strategy policy, sportscotland will give priority to projects located in deprived communities and in areas of special need. The current sport 21 review process is also important with regard to the issue of facilities and their impact on deprived communities.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, thank you.

The provision of these facilities and others has seen almost £54 million allocated to sports centres in some of the most run-down areas of Glasgow.

Sport 21 develops a vision of a new sporting environment in Scotland, in which access to quality facilities is convenient and affordable to all, in which Scotland's disadvantaged groups have equal and open access to sport and in which rural and remote communities are no longer isolated from mainstream Scottish sport.

As one of its four key challenges, sport 21 recommends that local authorities should publish a strategic plan for sport and recreation that draws on the resources and efforts of all council services including leisure, education, planning, social work, economic development and other departments, as

appropriate. I urge local authorities that have not yet done so to respond positively to that challenge.

Sportscotland's lottery sports fund began distributing funds in January 1995 and has made 525 awards under its capital programme up to 1 December this year. The awards total almost £85 million—funding that has stimulated an overall expenditure programme of some £246 million on sports facilities in Scotland.

Levelling the playing field, the new lottery strategy, is placing even greater emphasis on local neighbourhood provision by opening up school facilities for use by local communities. Within that strategy policy, sportscotland will give priority to projects located in deprived communities and in areas of special need.

The current sport 21 review process is also important with regard to the issue of facilities and their impact on deprived communities.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1857E136P222C713772", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27222, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 511.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 511.0, "ID": 27222, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeill, Pauline", "ID": 1857, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Kelvin" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Pauline McNeill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Pauline McNeill (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 524.0, "ContributionID": 713772, "EditedText": "Like everyone else, I welcome the bill. I knew little about the difficulties faced by thousands of Scots until I heard the evidence at the Justice and Home Affairs Committee. It is a measure of our democratic system that the Parliament has found time to allow more than 60 organisations to present their views on the subject so far. I am sure that many more will lobby us in the weeks ahead. Having heard the evidence, I have decided that the bill is urgently required. We should commend the efforts of the groups and individuals who have taken time to assist us in its preparation. Many of my constituents have written to me with concerns about medical issues raised by part 5. I hope that they will be as reassured as I am by Mr Wallace's amendments. To those who say that lawyers will have a field day with the bill, I say that by the end of the debate Parliament's wishes will be clear and on record. There will be no doubt about the meaning of the act when it comes into force. At the heart of the bill is the protection of anadult's capacity and the provision of flexible legislation if an adult lacks capacity. We are not dealing with an all or nothing principle; we are dealing with decisions relating to cases involving an adult who might have partial capacity. We want the person to retain their individuality. We should respect the decisions that they can take. The bill would confer positive powers to appoint welfare attorneys who should always act in the best interests of the incapable adult. For the first time, health care workers will have clear legislation governing their activities with incapable adults. That will reassure them that their practices are lawful, not just established practice. A fundamental aim is that procedures be simplified. Welfare attorneys can take action on a range of issues, preventing the need always to go to court. We want to make the process less costly, less cumbersome and less traumatic for those on whom the bill seeks to confer rights. There will be a single integrated approach to the welfare property needs of adults who are incapacitated and the act will provide a legal framework for research. The bill has clear principles for clearer legislation. While we should scrutinise it further, I believe that we have it broadly right. I have considered carefully the arguments about whether we should impose a duty of care on welfare attorneys and proxies. I am persuaded by the comments of Professor Sheila McLean. She states, as others do, that there is no tradition of a duty of care on individuals in the community. Imposing that duty on an individual, as a non-professional person, would turn legal tradition on its head. I prefer the option presented by the British Medical Association, which calls for a code of practice. It is incumbent on us as legislators to balance the interests of all individuals who are affected. We must not make the duties and responsibilities on an individual so onerous as to deter or weigh down the welfare guardian. The amendment that deals with the definition of the nearest relative is significant. I have argued, as have others, that we should modernise our approach to that. I am pleased that this bill will lead the way. I reject the claim that we are opening the door to constructive euthanasia. We have to guard against unscrupulous relatives or doctors not acting in the interests of incapable adults, but I believe that that scenario is unusual. However, there should be provision for interested parties to go to court. The bill is not about constructing detriment or confusion, but takes a refreshing, simplified approach that will benefit more than 100,000 adults in Scotland. I support the bill and the amendments that have been announced today.", "EditedTextHTML": "Like everyone else, I welcome the bill. I knew little about the difficulties faced by thousands of Scots until I heard the evidence at the Justice and Home Affairs Committee. It is a measure of our democratic system that the Parliament has found time to allow more than 60 organisations to present their views on the subject so far. I am sure that many more will lobby us in the weeks ahead.

Having heard the evidence, I have decided that the bill is urgently required. We should commend the efforts of the groups and individuals who have taken time to assist us in its preparation. Many of my constituents have written to me with concerns about medical issues raised by part 5. I hope that they will be as reassured as I am by Mr Wallace's amendments.

To those who say that lawyers will have a field day with the bill, I say that by the end of the debate Parliament's wishes will be clear and on record. There will be no doubt about the meaning of the act when it comes into force.

At the heart of the bill is the protection of an

adult's capacity and the provision of flexible legislation if an adult lacks capacity. We are not dealing with an all or nothing principle; we are dealing with decisions relating to cases involving an adult who might have partial capacity. We want the person to retain their individuality. We should respect the decisions that they can take.

The bill would confer positive powers to appoint welfare attorneys who should always act in the best interests of the incapable adult. For the first time, health care workers will have clear legislation governing their activities with incapable adults. That will reassure them that their practices are lawful, not just established practice.

A fundamental aim is that procedures be simplified. Welfare attorneys can take action on a range of issues, preventing the need always to go to court. We want to make the process less costly, less cumbersome and less traumatic for those on whom the bill seeks to confer rights.

There will be a single integrated approach to the welfare property needs of adults who are incapacitated and the act will provide a legal framework for research. The bill has clear principles for clearer legislation. While we should scrutinise it further, I believe that we have it broadly right.

I have considered carefully the arguments about whether we should impose a duty of care on welfare attorneys and proxies. I am persuaded by the comments of Professor Sheila McLean. She states, as others do, that there is no tradition of a duty of care on individuals in the community. Imposing that duty on an individual, as a non-professional person, would turn legal tradition on its head. I prefer the option presented by the British Medical Association, which calls for a code of practice.

It is incumbent on us as legislators to balance the interests of all individuals who are affected. We must not make the duties and responsibilities on an individual so onerous as to deter or weigh down the welfare guardian. The amendment that deals with the definition of the nearest relative is significant. I have argued, as have others, that we should modernise our approach to that. I am pleased that this bill will lead the way.

I reject the claim that we are opening the door to constructive euthanasia. We have to guard against unscrupulous relatives or doctors not acting in the interests of incapable adults, but I believe that that scenario is unusual. However, there should be provision for interested parties to go to court. The bill is not about constructing detriment or confusion, but takes a refreshing, simplified approach that will benefit more than 100,000 adults in Scotland.

I support the bill and the amendments that have been announced today.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:17:36.376716+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C713668", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27196, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27197, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 258.0, "QuestionHeading": "Student Finance", "QuestionHeadingID": 27201, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 284.0, "DisplayOrder": 284.0, "ID": 27201, "ParentID": 27197 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 293.0, "ContributionID": 713668, "EditedText": "Notwithstanding the deputy minister's Christmas day reading, does not Nicol Stephen find it contradictory—and he may find it contradictory when he reads the answers that he has just given in the Official Report—that Parliament set up the committee of inquiry, yet it is the Executive that will be forming a response to it when the Parliament is not in session? Surely that is a betrayal of the motion agreed by this Parliament on Mr Wallace's suggestion.", "EditedTextHTML": "Notwithstanding the deputy minister's Christmas day reading, does not Nicol Stephen find it contradictory—and he may find it contradictory when he reads the answers that he has just given in the Official Report—that Parliament set up the committee of inquiry, yet it is the Executive that will be forming a response to it when the Parliament is not in session? Surely that is a betrayal of the motion agreed by this Parliament on Mr Wallace's suggestion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:15:01.1305372+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C713843", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pollokshaws Sports Centre", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27225, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 636.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 636.0, "ID": 27225, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 679.0, "ContributionID": 713843, "EditedText": "Will the deputy minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the deputy minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:00:39.6991441+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C713711", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27196, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27197, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 258.0, "QuestionHeading": "Concessionary Fares", "QuestionHeadingID": 27213, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 386.0, "DisplayOrder": 386.0, "ID": 27213, "ParentID": 27197 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 391.0, "ContributionID": 713711, "EditedText": "It is worth commenting on two things. First, there are the community transport initiatives in rural areas, which the Executive is supporting and which have a direct benefit for elderly people. The other is our objective of improving and harmonising existing concessionary fare schemes throughout Scotland. I call to Dr Jackson's attention the scheme that the Executive launched last week. That scheme results in blind people getting free travel throughout Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is worth commenting on two things. First, there are the community transport initiatives in rural areas, which the Executive is supporting and which have a direct benefit for elderly people. The other is our objective of improving and harmonising existing concessionary fare schemes throughout Scotland. I call to Dr Jackson's attention the scheme that the Executive launched last week. That scheme results in blind people getting free travel throughout Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:14.3101891+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C713550", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Waste Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27189, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 19.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 19.0, "ID": 27189, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 45.0, "ContributionID": 713550, "EditedText": "That is where several different Government mechanisms must come into play. The landfill tax provides incentives for local authorities and waste producers in the commercial sector to reduce the amount of waste. If they do so, it also provides a benefit in the form of reduced national insurance contributions. There is a particular issue about construction and demolition, as I said earlier. Through our planning guidelines, we are encouraging the re-use of existing buildings—something with which most of us agree—and the recycling of construction materials. Landfill tax provides an economic imperative, planning guidelines give encouragement and the monitoring of landfill sites is an important part of the strategy. People must have permission to put material into landfill sites and it must be monitored by SEPA. We have to ensure that monitoring is rigorous, open and transparent so that people who live near landfill sites are confident about the process. SEPA is currently considering that. It is a question of using all the different mechanisms at our disposal. At the end of the day, it is about common sense, particularly in relation to construction and demolition materials. We need economic instruments, planning persuasion and appropriate facilities to deal with the issue.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is where several different Government mechanisms must come into play. The landfill tax provides incentives for local authorities and waste producers in the commercial sector to reduce the amount of waste. If they do so, it also provides a benefit in the form of reduced national insurance contributions.

There is a particular issue about construction and demolition, as I said earlier. Through our planning guidelines, we are encouraging the re-use of existing buildings—something with which most of us agree—and the recycling of construction materials. Landfill tax provides an economic imperative, planning guidelines give encouragement and the monitoring of landfill sites is an important part of the strategy.

People must have permission to put material into landfill sites and it must be monitored by SEPA. We have to ensure that monitoring is rigorous, open and transparent so that people who live near landfill sites are confident about the process. SEPA is currently considering that. It is a question of using all the different mechanisms at our disposal. At the end of the day, it is about common sense, particularly in relation to construction and demolition materials. We need economic instruments, planning persuasion and appropriate facilities to deal with the issue.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:08.9207112+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C713659", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27196, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27197, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 258.0, "QuestionHeading": "Strategic Rail Authority", "QuestionHeadingID": 27199, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 266.0, "DisplayOrder": 266.0, "ID": 27199, "ParentID": 27197 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 273.0, "ContributionID": 713659, "EditedText": "The budget will be allocated for the whole of the United Kingdom. Schemes in Scotland will have to be justified in terms of their effectiveness for the whole of the UK rail network. Resources for the Scottish passenger franchises, which have already been discussed in Parliament, are also available from the shadow strategic rail authority, amounting to £120 million this year alone.", "EditedTextHTML": "The budget will be allocated for the whole of the United Kingdom. Schemes in Scotland will have to be justified in terms of their effectiveness for the whole of the UK rail network. Resources for the Scottish passenger franchises, which have already been discussed in Parliament, are also available from the shadow strategic rail authority, amounting to £120 million this year alone.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:08.9207112+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C713672", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27196, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27197, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 258.0, "QuestionHeading": "National Park", "QuestionHeadingID": 27202, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 297.0, "DisplayOrder": 297.0, "ID": 27202, "ParentID": 27197 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 302.0, "ContributionID": 713672, "EditedText": "I would be happy to consider representations from different areas on whether they want to be included or excluded in the national park's boundaries. I am happy to announce that I have asked Scottish Natural Heritage to continue its work on both areas of potential national park status and to take forward discussions with local stakeholders and interest groups. It seems appropriate that those discussions could continue in the area that George Lyon has described.", "EditedTextHTML": "I would be happy to consider representations from different areas on whether they want to be included or excluded in the national park's boundaries.

I am happy to announce that I have asked Scottish Natural Heritage to continue its work on both areas of potential national park status and to take forward discussions with local stakeholders and interest groups. It seems appropriate that those discussions could continue in the area that George Lyon has described.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:08.9207112+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1756E184P464C713686", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27196, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27197, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 258.0, "QuestionHeading": "Hill Farming", "QuestionHeadingID": 27206, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 333.0, "DisplayOrder": 333.0, "ID": 27206, "ParentID": 27197 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Grahame, Christine", "ID": 1756, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Christine Grahame", "SpeakerDisplayName": "9. Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 334.0, "ContributionID": 713686, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what proposals it has to promote hill farming in the Scottish Borders. (S1O-818) The Minister for Rural Affairs (Ross Finnie): The Scottish Executive is committed to maintaining hill farming throughout Scotland, including the Borders. More than £300 million will be paid this year in beef, sheep and hill livestock compensatory allowance subsidy payments, most of which will go directly to those who farm in our hills and uplands. The Agenda 2000 package will result in higher levels of direct support to beef producers, estimated to be worth an additional £50 million in 2000.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what proposals it has to promote hill farming in the Scottish Borders. (S1O-818) The Minister for Rural Affairs (Ross Finnie): The Scottish Executive is committed to maintaining hill farming throughout Scotland, including the Borders. More than £300 million will be paid this year in beef, sheep and hill livestock compensatory allowance subsidy payments, most of which will go directly to those who farm in our hills and uplands. The Agenda 2000 package will result in higher levels of direct support to beef producers, estimated to be worth an additional £50 million in 2000.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:00:47.4376059+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1773E197P503C713782", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27222, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 511.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 511.0, "ID": 27222, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hyslop, Fiona", "ID": 1773, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona Hyslop", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona Hyslop (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 554.0, "ContributionID": 713782, "EditedText": "I welcome the bill and much of its content. I congratulate my colleague Roseanna Cunningham, the Justice and Home Affairs Committee and the Health and Community Care Committee on the immense amount of work that has obviously been put into the scrutiny of the bill. They have demonstrated clearly the true value of the committee structure in this Parliament, and they deserve the congratulations of all members. They set an example to us all. I agree with the point that was made by Gordon Jackson about the front-loading part of the consultation process. This legislation is the first evidence that that will work, and is a good example of how we can open up areas of concern at an early stage, to achieve consensus in resolving them. I will confine my comments to the subject of the nearest relative. The section of the bill that defines the nearest relative is of great importance to the entire bill, as it defines who may or may not be regarded as the person who is most appropriate to look after the affairs of the person who is unable to make their own decisions. A priority list is provided in the bill, which details who should be regarded as the nearest relative—child, father, mother, brother, sister and so on. The definition is crucial. The issue is whether this Parliament will recognise the rights and, importantly, the role that should be played by partners who are not genetically, genealogically or technically legally linked to the patients. That key area must be addressed, as it concerns the way in which the bill will deal with the issue of same-sex partners. I welcome the fact that the minister is seeking to extend the definition of nearest relative to same-sex partners. I want to raise a point of procedure, although I am not sure whether there is such a thing. It might be helpful, in future debates, if notice is given— even during the debate—of any amendments that have been lodged by the Executive. A list of those amendments could be given to members. I understand that, in the Executive's response to the Justice and Home Affairs Committee, some of the amendments that are being proposed might not have been put forward. I raise that point in a spirit of co-operation. In the scrutiny of future legislation, a listing of Executive amendments might be considered. It is of some concern that same-sex relations have been left out of the original draft of the bill. The idea that a person who may have lived with their partner for decades could have their guardianship over that partner overruled by the next nearest relative, who may not have been around for the past 20 years, is untenable. The potential grief and upset that could be caused is incalculable. In our age, not to acknowledge that men and women live in long-term single-sex relationships—particularly when we are considering who is best placed to act as proxy—is unacceptable. Further consideration of that issue is necessary, and I am pleased that the Executive wants to do that. We should not imply to the lesbian and gay community in Scotland that their relationships are second-class, or that, on important issues that affect their human rights, they cannot rely on the Parliament to act in a just and fair way. I do not think that the bill will become a totem of gay rights. We should focus on the right of the patient to have the person who is closest to them helping to protect and support them and their decisions. I believe that—in a spirit of equality— there is consensus on the issue. We should address the needs of patients in times of crisis and distress. Few in the chamber would disagree with that. Human rights are universal. They apply to us all—patients and loved ones. I hope that we are all loved ones because, as Jamie Stone said, the bill potentially affects all of us. It is a credit to the Parliament that it is being introduced, and the manner in which that has been achieved is credit to the committees and to the Executive.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the bill and much of its content. I congratulate my colleague Roseanna Cunningham, the Justice and Home Affairs Committee and the Health and Community Care Committee on the immense amount of work that has obviously been put into the scrutiny of the bill. They have demonstrated clearly the true value of the committee structure in this Parliament, and they deserve the congratulations of all members. They set an example to us all. I agree with the point that was made by Gordon Jackson about the front-loading part of the consultation process. This legislation is the first evidence that that will work, and is a good example of how we can open up areas of concern at an early stage, to achieve consensus in resolving them.

I will confine my comments to the subject of the nearest relative. The section of the bill that defines the nearest relative is of great importance to the entire bill, as it defines who may or may not be regarded as the person who is most appropriate to look after the affairs of the person who is unable to make their own decisions. A priority list is provided in the bill, which details who should be regarded as the nearest relative—child, father, mother, brother, sister and so on. The definition is crucial. The issue is whether this Parliament will recognise the rights and, importantly, the role that should be played by partners who are not genetically, genealogically or technically legally linked to the patients. That key area must be addressed, as it concerns the way in which the bill will deal with the issue of same-sex partners. I welcome the fact that the minister is seeking to extend the definition of nearest relative to same-sex partners.

I want to raise a point of procedure, although I am not sure whether there is such a thing. It might be helpful, in future debates, if notice is given— even during the debate—of any amendments that have been lodged by the Executive. A list of those amendments could be given to members. I understand that, in the Executive's response to the Justice and Home Affairs Committee, some of the amendments that are being proposed might not have been put forward. I raise that point in a spirit of co-operation. In the scrutiny of future legislation, a listing of Executive amendments might be considered.

It is of some concern that same-sex relations have been left out of the original draft of the bill. The idea that a person who may have lived with their partner for decades could have their guardianship over that partner overruled by the next nearest relative, who may not have been around for the past 20 years, is untenable. The potential grief and upset that could be caused is incalculable. In our age, not to acknowledge that men and women live in long-term single-sex relationships—particularly when we are considering who is best placed to act as proxy—is unacceptable. Further consideration of that issue is necessary, and I am pleased that the Executive wants to do that. We should not imply to the lesbian and gay community in Scotland that their relationships are second-class, or that, on important issues that affect their human rights, they cannot rely on the Parliament to act in a just and fair way.

I do not think that the bill will become a totem of gay rights. We should focus on the right of the patient to have the person who is closest to them helping to protect and support them and their decisions. I believe that—in a spirit of equality— there is consensus on the issue. We should address the needs of patients in times of crisis and distress. Few in the chamber would disagree with that.

Human rights are universal. They apply to us all—patients and loved ones. I hope that we are all loved ones because, as Jamie Stone said, the bill potentially affects all of us. It is a credit to the Parliament that it is being introduced, and the manner in which that has been achieved is credit to the committees and to the Executive.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:01:00.1970678+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1892E34P73C713530", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Thursday 9 December 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 27188, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 27188, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Fergusson, Alex", "ID": 1892, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Fergusson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Fergusson (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 3.0, "ContributionID": 713530, "EditedText": "On a point of order.", "EditedTextHTML": "

On a point of order.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.545081+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713531", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Thursday 9 December 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 27188, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 27188, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 5.0, "ContributionID": 713531, "EditedText": "So early in the morning.", "EditedTextHTML": "So early in the morning.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.545081+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713529", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Thursday 9 December 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 27188, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 27188, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 2.0, "ContributionID": 713529, "EditedText": "THE PRESIDING OFFICER opened the meeting at 09:30", "EditedTextHTML": "[THE PRESIDING OFFICER opened the meeting at 09:30]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.545081+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1814E135P516C713551", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Waste Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27189, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 19.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 19.0, "ID": 27189, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Fabiani, Linda", "ID": 1814, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Linda Fabiani", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Linda Fabiani (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 47.0, "ContributionID": 713551, "EditedText": "I agree with the minister that waste going into landfill sites means risks for the environment. Will the minister therefore consider using some of the £40 million that is taken from Scotland and sent to London to compensate local authorities that pull out of any landfill operation and move towards recycling? The Cathkin Brae landfill site in the East Kilbride constituency was approved by Mr Dewar earlier this year and is only at site preparation stage.", "EditedTextHTML": "I agree with the minister that waste going into landfill sites means risks for the environment. Will the minister therefore consider using some of the £40 million that is taken from Scotland and sent to London to compensate local authorities that pull out of any landfill operation and move towards recycling? The Cathkin Brae landfill site in the East Kilbride constituency was approved by Mr Dewar earlier this year and is only at site preparation stage.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5607083+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2223E203P342C713545", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Waste Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27189, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 19.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 19.0, "ID": 27189, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scott, Tavish", "ID": 2223, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Shetland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tavish Scott", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tavish Scott (Shetland) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 35.0, "ContributionID": 713545, "EditedText": "From the Liberal Democrat benches, I welcome the strategy that has been announced this morning, particularly the move towards Liberal Democrat targets for recycling and waste minimisation. Does the minister accept that Scotland's record on recycling is pretty woeful: 5.48 per cent in Scotland compared with 34 per cent in Norway and 58 per cent in Switzerland? How will the minister ensure that the plans that emerge from the strategy will be implemented and benchmarked against the performance of other comparable European nations? Will the minister consider the strategy when she assesses the varying performance of local government throughout Scotland, the need to develop integrated waste management strategies and the setting of a timetable for the finalisation of those strategies?", "EditedTextHTML": "From the Liberal Democrat benches, I welcome the strategy that has been announced this morning, particularly the move towards Liberal Democrat targets for recycling and waste minimisation. Does the minister accept that Scotland's record on recycling is pretty woeful: 5.48 per cent in Scotland compared with 34 per cent in Norway and 58 per cent in Switzerland? How will the minister ensure that the plans that emerge from the strategy will be implemented and benchmarked against the performance of other comparable European nations?

Will the minister consider the strategy when she assesses the varying performance of local government throughout Scotland, the need to develop integrated waste management strategies and the setting of a timetable for the finalisation of those strategies?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5607083+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1762E216P508C713557", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Waste Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27189, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 19.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 19.0, "ID": 27189, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Elder, Dorothy-Grace", "ID": 1762, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 59.0, "ContributionID": 713557, "EditedText": "I am sure that the minister accepts that, although the landfill tax is a reserved matter, the suffering of Scots living near some dumps is not. Many people are living in absolute misery, unable to enjoy their homes freely. Although the minister has referred to the 3 million tonnes of household waste that is produced annually in Scotland, is she aware that, in Glasgow, 500,000 tonnes, including industrial waste containing asbestos, cyanide and so on, goes into just one dump—Paterson's tip at Mount Vernon and Baillieston? That grotesque intake has been criticised by Glasgow's public health department, which also criticised smells that it found to be \"literally breathtaking\". Is the minister also aware that local people have given written testimony about being unable to sit in their gardens or to hang out their washing on days when those appalling odours are at their worst? Furthermore, is she aware that Paterson's tip is the only high-level toxic dump that is licensed to take up to 27 poisons and still operating inside an urban boundary anywhere in Scotland after 40 years? Finally, is she aware that local people have no confidence in SEPA, which they find to be a very secretive quango?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sure that the minister accepts that, although the landfill tax is a reserved matter, the suffering of Scots living near some dumps is not. Many people are living in absolute misery, unable to enjoy their homes freely.

Although the minister has referred to the 3 million tonnes of household waste that is produced annually in Scotland, is she aware that, in Glasgow, 500,000 tonnes, including industrial waste containing asbestos, cyanide and so on, goes into just one dump—Paterson's tip at Mount Vernon and Baillieston? That grotesque intake has been criticised by Glasgow's public health department, which also criticised smells that it found to be \"literally breathtaking\".

Is the minister also aware that local people have given written testimony about being unable to sit in their gardens or to hang out their washing on days when those appalling odours are at their worst? Furthermore, is she aware that Paterson's tip is the only high-level toxic dump that is licensed to take up to 27 poisons and still operating inside an urban boundary anywhere in Scotland after 40 years? Finally, is she aware that local people have no confidence in SEPA, which they find to be a very secretive quango?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5607083+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C713578", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Housing", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27190, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 27190, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 103.0, "ContributionID": 713578, "EditedText": "I will deal with the question of tenant involvement first. As the member may know, over the past year tenant neighbourhood forums have been set up in every part of the city of Glasgow. Indeed, only yesterday I was talking to members of the tenants forum in Ruchazie and Sighthill about what was planned for the city. Glasgow City Council, as the body that is devising the proposal jointly with us, has in the past month written to all its tenants to tell them what is under consideration.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will deal with the question of tenant involvement first. As the member may know, over the past year tenant neighbourhood forums have been set up in every part of the city of Glasgow. Indeed, only yesterday I was talking to members of the tenants forum in Ruchazie and Sighthill about what was planned for the city. Glasgow City Council, as the body that is devising the proposal jointly with us, has in the past month written to all its tenants to tell them what is under consideration.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5607083+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C713579", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Housing", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27190, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 27190, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 105.0, "ContributionID": 713579, "EditedText": "Who is on the steering group from the tenants?", "EditedTextHTML": "Who is on the steering group from the tenants?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5607083+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C713569", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Housing", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27190, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 27190, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 85.0, "ContributionID": 713569, "EditedText": "Where should I begin? Fiona Hyslop raised six points. If the greatest criticism that the SNP has to offer is that we are doing the right thing, I am happy to accept that criticism. The real difference is that we put an extra £50 million into the communities budget to help to deliver on our promises. I am not sure that I want to address the issue of the black hole in the SNP's budget today, but that black hole is still there and Fiona Hyslop's response begs the question whether the SNP would have had the resources to deliver this programme, however committed to it that party is in principle. On the commitment to build new homes, one of the characteristics of the Government is its commitment to clarity on what it will deliver with the resources that it spends. We have made it clear that we will deliver 6,000 new houses a year, and I am confident that we will achieve that. There will not be a devastating effect. We have made it clear that giving all tenants in Scotland the same set of rights might lead to up to 800 or 850 additional sales a year, balanced against six times as many houses being built a year. That begs the question whether the SNP thinks that we should continue with the divisive, two-tier tenancy system in which some tenancies have contractual rights and others have secure rights. What is the SNP's position on secure tenancies? We believe that a single housing plan and a single budget must be matched with a single tenancy for everybody, which would be secured in law and would ensure that there were no second-class citizens. We have had enough of second-class citizens in Scottish tenancies in the past. Fiona Hyslop asked whether the proposals would affect the financial viability of housing associations. The figures in the research document, which are for the whole of Scotland, illustrate that, if the average value of a house is assumed to be £40,000, and people receive a discount of 55 per cent on that, which is the average discount, the end result is a receipt of £17,000. Partly because all those housing association houses were built with 70 per cent housing association grant, on average, there will probably be only £6,000 of debt to clear. When the receipt that housing associations get is offset against the lost rental income, the housing associations will build balances as a result of our proposals today. Their financial viability will not be undermined. It might be suggested that one housing association somewhere might face some difficulty. If it did, we would talk to it, as would Scottish Homes. There is in excess of £200 million in the development programme. Should we, for the sake one housing association—out of the hundreds in Scotland—that might experience a difficulty, deprive all Scottish tenants of a single set of secure tenancy rights? That was the choice that we faced, and I am convinced that we made the right decision. The same argument on the finances—I shall not run through them—generally applies to Glasgow. The suggestion that lenders believe that the right to buy will make it more difficult to finance the Glasgow stock transfer is simply not true. The view of lenders is that the right to buy will do nothing to undermine the financial viability of the options that are under consideration by the city.", "EditedTextHTML": "Where should I begin? Fiona Hyslop raised six points.

If the greatest criticism that the SNP has to offer is that we are doing the right thing, I am happy to accept that criticism. The real difference is that we put an extra £50 million into the communities budget to help to deliver on our promises. I am not sure that I want to address the issue of the black hole in the SNP's budget today, but that black hole is still there and Fiona Hyslop's response begs the question whether the SNP would have had the resources to deliver this programme, however committed to it that party is in principle.

On the commitment to build new homes, one of the characteristics of the Government is its commitment to clarity on what it will deliver with the resources that it spends. We have made it clear that we will deliver 6,000 new houses a year, and I am confident that we will achieve that. There will not be a devastating effect. We have made it clear that giving all tenants in Scotland the same set of rights might lead to up to 800 or 850 additional sales a year, balanced against six times as many houses being built a year. That begs the question whether the SNP thinks that we should continue with the divisive, two-tier tenancy system in which some tenancies have contractual rights and others have secure rights.

What is the SNP's position on secure tenancies? We believe that a single housing plan and a single budget must be matched with a single tenancy for everybody, which would be secured in law and would ensure that there were no second-class citizens. We have had enough of second-class citizens in Scottish tenancies in the past.

Fiona Hyslop asked whether the proposals would affect the financial viability of housing associations. The figures in the research document, which are for the whole of Scotland, illustrate that, if the average value of a house is assumed to be £40,000, and people receive a discount of 55 per cent on that, which is the average discount, the end result is a receipt of £17,000. Partly because all those housing association houses were built with 70 per cent housing association grant, on average, there will probably be only £6,000 of debt to clear. When the receipt that housing associations get is offset against the lost rental income, the housing associations will build balances as a result of our proposals today. Their financial viability will not be undermined.

It might be suggested that one housing association somewhere might face some difficulty. If it did, we would talk to it, as would Scottish Homes. There is in excess of £200 million in the development programme. Should we, for the sake one housing association—out of the hundreds in Scotland—that might experience a difficulty, deprive all Scottish tenants of a single set of secure tenancy rights? That was the choice that we faced, and I am convinced that we made the right decision.

The same argument on the finances—I shall not run through them—generally applies to Glasgow.

The suggestion that lenders believe that the right to buy will make it more difficult to finance the Glasgow stock transfer is simply not true. The view of lenders is that the right to buy will do nothing to undermine the financial viability of the options that are under consideration by the city.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5607083+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2234E7P20C713571", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Housing", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27190, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 27190, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Aitken, Bill", "ID": 2234, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bill Aitken", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bill Aitken (Glasgow) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 89.0, "ContributionID": 713571, "EditedText": "The Conservatives generally welcome the statement. In many respects, it seeks to build on the achievements of the previous Conservative Government. As the minister said, Labour and Liberal politicians argued for a new and better way, but Conservative politicians implemented that better way and increased home ownership in Scotland from 38 per cent to 62 per cent. There are, however, several unanswered questions and we Conservatives need to reserve our position on some issues. Does the minister agree that the homelessness figures—which are a matter for general and genuine concern—might be improved if there was a compulsory local authority strategy for coping with the problem? Does she further agree that many of the proposals for dealing with anti-social tenants are already in place, and that there has been a lack of resolve on the part of local authorities in implementing them? Does she agree that the need to impose a single regulatory framework is, in itself, a condemnation of the Labour-controlled local authorities? Does the minister agree that Scottish Homes has performed an extremely valuable role and, accordingly, that any change in its management structure must ensure that the organisation is still able to draw in the private sector's involvement? That sector's involvement has been a particularly successful aspect of Scottish Homes' operations. Are not Ms Alexander's plans for housing in rural areas an extension of the rural housing strategy that was so ably and far-sightedly introduced by my friend, Lord James Douglas-Hamilton?", "EditedTextHTML": "The Conservatives generally welcome the statement. In many respects, it seeks to build on the achievements of the previous Conservative Government. As the minister said, Labour and Liberal politicians argued for a new and better way, but Conservative politicians implemented that better way and increased home ownership in Scotland from 38 per cent to 62 per cent.

There are, however, several unanswered questions and we Conservatives need to reserve our position on some issues. Does the minister agree that the homelessness figures—which are a matter for general and genuine concern—might be improved if there was a compulsory local authority strategy for coping with the problem? Does she further agree that many of the proposals for dealing with anti-social tenants are already in place, and that there has been a lack of resolve on the part of local authorities in implementing them? Does she agree that the need to impose a single regulatory framework is, in itself, a condemnation of the Labour-controlled local authorities?

Does the minister agree that Scottish Homes has performed an extremely valuable role and, accordingly, that any change in its management structure must ensure that the organisation is still able to draw in the private sector's involvement? That sector's involvement has been a particularly successful aspect of Scottish Homes' operations. Are not Ms Alexander's plans for housing in rural areas an extension of the rural housing strategy that was so ably and far-sightedly introduced by my friend, Lord James Douglas-Hamilton?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5607083+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C713572", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Housing", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27190, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 27190, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 91.0, "ContributionID": 713572, "EditedText": "I am tempted to ask the Tories why, if they had a better way, they have spent most of the past six months apologising to the people of Scotland for what they did in the past. There is a serious point to be made—no one political party in this chamber should try to claim that the benefits of community ownership are as a result of its policies, and are therefore party political. On Tuesday, I visited Calvay Housing Association in Easterhouse in Glasgow, which has three types of tenant—secure tenants, assured tenants with the right to buy and assured tenants without the right to buy. The thicket of mixed-up tenancies that the Tories left as their legacy to us had to go. Tomorrow Donald Dewar is attending the 25th anniversary celebration of a Glasgow community-based housing association. I am happy to say that none of us owns that movement—it resulted from community activists saying that there was a better way in which to manage and to govern our houses. It is to their credit that politicians are prepared to support tenants who organise themselves in that way. There is an important point to be made about homelessness. I was in Sighthill in Glasgow yesterday and talked to the people there about homelessness figures. Glasgow has one eighth of the housing in Scotland and one third of applications for housing from homeless people. All the housing managers I spoke to were quite sure that there has been an increase in the figures partly because of representations from people who have chaotic lifestyles because of drugs, and from people who have repeated relationship breakdowns—which is also sometimes tied to substance abuse. The figures do not tell us how many people send in repeat applications, but Jackie Baillie's homelessness task force is examining that. There are only 17,000 priority need applications in Scotland each year—less than the number of void and hard-to-let houses that local authorities currently have. If we are to find an answer to homelessness, there must be new investment in housing to make those void and hard-to-let houses lettable. I am happy to agree that what we have done about anti-social behaviour is part of a continuum. It is important that we introduce yellow cards before the red card of eviction, so that there are a number of steps that local authorities can take without putting people on the streets, but which also protect the majority who are good tenants and who do not want to live with bad neighbours. Finally, I am happy to agree with Bill Aitken about the valuable role that Scottish Homes has played, but I would rather regard Calum MacDonald as the parent of the increase in resources for rural housing than Lord James. However, that could be a matter for dispute.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am tempted to ask the Tories why, if they had a better way, they have spent most of the past six months apologising to the people of Scotland for what they did in the past. There is a serious point to be made—no one political party in this chamber should try to claim that the benefits of community ownership are as a result of its policies, and are therefore party political.

On Tuesday, I visited Calvay Housing Association in Easterhouse in Glasgow, which has three types of tenant—secure tenants, assured tenants with the right to buy and assured tenants without the right to buy. The thicket of mixed-up tenancies that the Tories left as their legacy to us had to go. Tomorrow Donald Dewar is attending the 25th anniversary celebration of a Glasgow community-based housing association. I am happy to say that none of us owns that movement—it resulted from community activists saying that there was a better way in which to manage and to govern our houses. It is to their credit that politicians are prepared to support tenants who organise themselves in that way.

There is an important point to be made about homelessness. I was in Sighthill in Glasgow yesterday and talked to the people there about homelessness figures. Glasgow has one eighth of the housing in Scotland and one third of applications for housing from homeless people. All the housing managers I spoke to were quite sure that there has been an increase in the figures partly because of representations from people who have chaotic lifestyles because of drugs, and from people who have repeated relationship breakdowns—which is also sometimes tied to substance abuse. The figures do not tell us how many people send in repeat applications, but Jackie Baillie's homelessness task force is examining that.

There are only 17,000 priority need applications in Scotland each year—less than the number of void and hard-to-let houses that local authorities currently have. If we are to find an answer to homelessness, there must be new investment in housing to make those void and hard-to-let houses lettable.

I am happy to agree that what we have done about anti-social behaviour is part of a continuum. It is important that we introduce yellow cards before the red card of eviction, so that there are a number of steps that local authorities can take without putting people on the streets, but which also protect the majority who are good tenants and who do not want to live with bad neighbours.

Finally, I am happy to agree with Bill Aitken about the valuable role that Scottish Homes has played, but I would rather regard Calum MacDonald as the parent of the increase in resources for rural housing than Lord James. However, that could be a matter for dispute.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5607083+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C713575", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Housing", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27190, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 27190, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan (Glasgow) (SSP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 97.0, "ContributionID": 713575, "EditedText": "I do not welcome the statement—I am sure that the Minister for Communities is not surprised to hear that. The proposals are ill thought out, riddled with contradictions and ideologically driven. The Tories have made it clear that they would have been very happy to make this statement. The minister parades tenant involvement like a mantra—tenant control instead of municipal control—but for a year in Glasgow we have had a feasibility study without tenant involvement; we now have an interim steering committee to take forward the result of the feasibility study, again without tenant involvement. Will the minister say why there is no tenant involvement in the proposal to sell off every single council house in Glasgow? The minister is talking about sending a letter to Scottish Homes staff to reassure them that their jobs are safe in the subsuming of quangos, rather than the bonfire that was promised. Will the minister send a similar letter to all housing association staff in Scotland, who work hard to deliver the type of community housing that has been described today as a model for housing arrangements, but whose jobs are now threatened by the extension of right to buy? My third question is on the letter of consent, which will be issued to local authorities for the next financial year. Will the minister today give a commitment—a commitment that should have been given two and a half years ago—to remove the capital receipt payback regulations? I know how much Glasgow has lost in terms of potential investment because of the minister's decision to stick with those Tory regulations—£60 million- worth of investment in the past three years. I have the figures here, but can the minister tell the chamber how much that great policy has undermined rent increases in Glasgow in each of those years, while denying the investment to which I referred?", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not welcome the statement—I am sure that the Minister for Communities is not surprised to hear that. The proposals are ill thought out, riddled with contradictions and ideologically driven. The Tories have made it clear that they would have been very happy to make this statement.

The minister parades tenant involvement like a mantra—tenant control instead of municipal control—but for a year in Glasgow we have had a feasibility study without tenant involvement; we now have an interim steering committee to take forward the result of the feasibility study, again without tenant involvement. Will the minister say why there is no tenant involvement in the proposal to sell off every single council house in Glasgow?

The minister is talking about sending a letter to Scottish Homes staff to reassure them that their jobs are safe in the subsuming of quangos, rather than the bonfire that was promised. Will the minister send a similar letter to all housing association staff in Scotland, who work hard to deliver the type of community housing that has been described today as a model for housing arrangements, but whose jobs are now threatened by the extension of right to buy?

My third question is on the letter of consent, which will be issued to local authorities for the next financial year. Will the minister today give a commitment—a commitment that should have been given two and a half years ago—to remove the capital receipt payback regulations? I know how much Glasgow has lost in terms of potential investment because of the minister's decision to stick with those Tory regulations—£60 million- worth of investment in the past three years. I have the figures here, but can the minister tell the chamber how much that great policy has undermined rent increases in Glasgow in each of those years, while denying the investment to which I referred?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5607083+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C713583", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Housing", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27190, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 27190, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 113.0, "ContributionID": 713583, "EditedText": "Let me come to the main point. The essential difference between Tommy Sheridan and me is that his ambition extends to only one thing—that this Executive and this Parliament should take on the housing debt of the city of Glasgow and that the rents should be used to invest in houses. I have no problem with saying that the whole of Scotland should take more responsibility for outstanding housing debt, but my vision is more ambitious than Tommy Sheridan's. I do not want to say that the best that we can do is invest the rental income. If I think that I can use that income to access literally hundreds of millions of pounds to change the living conditions of people in Glasgow in co-operation with landlords who, to a person, are non-profit-making, I will do that.", "EditedTextHTML": "Let me come to the main point. The essential difference between Tommy Sheridan and me is that his ambition extends to only one thing—that this Executive and this Parliament should take on the housing debt of the city of Glasgow and that the rents should be used to invest in houses. I have no problem with saying that the whole of Scotland should take more responsibility for outstanding housing debt, but my vision is more ambitious than Tommy Sheridan's. I do not want to say that the best that we can do is invest the rental income. If I think that I can use that income to access literally hundreds of millions of pounds to change the living conditions of people in Glasgow in co-operation with landlords who, to a person, are non-profit-making, I will do that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5607083+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1768E72P274C713584", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Housing", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27190, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 27190, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Murray, Elaine", "ID": 1768, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumfries" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Murray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Elaine Murray (Dumfries) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 115.0, "ContributionID": 713584, "EditedText": "I note that the proposals include new measures to prevent and mitigate anti-social behaviour by tenants and look forward to studying them in more detail. The minister will be aware of the provisions of the Crime and Disorder Act 1998 and of the fact that several local authorities do not use the powers that were given to them in the act. How does she propose to ensure that housing authorities will be able to use the powers and exercise the responsibilities that might be conferred on them under the new proposals?", "EditedTextHTML": "I note that the proposals include new measures to prevent and mitigate anti-social behaviour by tenants and look forward to studying them in more detail. The minister will be aware of the provisions of the Crime and Disorder Act 1998 and of the fact that several local authorities do not use the powers that were given to them in the act. How does she propose to ensure that housing authorities will be able to use the powers and exercise the responsibilities that might be conferred on them under the new proposals?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5607083+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C713586", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Housing", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27190, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 27190, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 119.0, "ContributionID": 713586, "EditedText": "First, I say to the minister that she is no John Wheatley. Is the minister aware that in the past 20 years rental income from local authority housing has increased from 44 per cent of total local authority housing department income to 92 per cent, of which 56 per cent comes from housing benefit? In the light of the forthcoming review of the housing benefit system, is she putting all her eggs in one basket? What are the implications of the review of housing benefit for the policy that she announced this morning?", "EditedTextHTML": "First, I say to the minister that she is no John Wheatley.

Is the minister aware that in the past 20 years rental income from local authority housing has increased from 44 per cent of total local authority housing department income to 92 per cent, of which 56 per cent comes from housing benefit? In the light of the forthcoming review of the housing benefit system, is she putting all her eggs in one basket? What are the implications of the review of housing benefit for the policy that she announced this morning?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5607083+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C713592", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Standing Orders", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27191, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 129.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 129.0, "ID": 27191, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Murray Tosh (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 133.0, "ContributionID": 713592, "EditedText": "It is with great pleasure that, on behalf of my colleagues on the Procedures Committee and our splendid team of officers, who are arrayed along the back of the chamber, I present to the Parliament a draft set of standing orders. It is appropriate that this is the first committee report to be debated in this chamber. Members will be aware that, since 12 May, when the Parliament first met, we have operated under a set of standing orders that was conferred upon us by a statutory instrument made by the Secretary of State for Scotland. Rule 17.1 of the Scotland Act 1998 (Transitory and Transitional Provisions) (Standing Orders and Parliamentary Publications) Order 1999 states: \"The Procedures Committee shall before 6th May 2000, by motion propose to the Parliament a draft set of standing orders.\" It is a tribute to the focused work of the committee that we are able to bring a draft set of standing orders to the Parliament six months early. Today, we have the opportunity to make our own standing orders and so make a little bit of history in the development of this Parliament. The Procedures Committee has met eight times. We considered at an early stage that it was important that the Parliament should have its own standing orders and that we should work towards presenting them to the Parliament before the Christmas recess. To be in a position to make our own standing orders is to be at an important stage in the Parliament's coming of age. We also recognised that the Parliament was still a relatively new body and that it would be reckless to embark upon wholesale changes without the benefit of substantial experience. Furthermore, we recognised that the existing rules were of considerable merit—I pay tribute to those who thought about how the Parliament should work and to the draftsmen who turned those thoughts into the set of rules with which we have been working daily since May. Accordingly, the committee took the view that the current standing orders constituted a sound base for development and that the optimum approach was to consider priority changes in those areas in which members and clerks had detected difficulties in practice. In identifying the priority changes that were likely to be required, the committee listened carefully to members. Two consultation exercises were carried out and, on behalf of the committee, I thank those colleagues who responded. I pay particular tribute to the contribution of the Executive, and of all political parties, to the complex process of identifying the issues for initial investigation and selecting suggested areas for substantial work. More than 40 issues were identified in the consultation process. They were collated into subject areas and the clerks prepared papers on each area. The committee considered, discussed and debated each of those papers over a number of months. I am pleased to report that, in the spirit of the new politics, those debates were marked by a constructive approach and much good humour. That is reflected in the fact that, despite the considerable significance of the subject matter, a vote was resorted to on only one occasion—on the issue of summing up debates. Even then, after further consultation with the Executive, we were able to resolve the matter without the need to change the standing orders. That is a tribute to the sound common sense of everyone involved. Of the papers that we considered, 15 resulted in proposed changes to the standing orders. Those are identified in annexe 3 of our report and are incorporated into a fully revised set of standing orders, which appear as annexe 4. In a moment I will touch on some of the key changes that we propose. On all the remaining issues, the committee agreed that no change to the standing orders was necessary at this stage, but that a number of changes to parliamentary practice were required. Accordingly, on 15 October, I wrote on behalf of my colleagues to the Presiding Officer—that letter is contained in annexe 2 of the report— recommending that those changes be adopted as good parliamentary practice. I am glad to say that some of those recommendations have already been introduced—I hope that they have improved the smooth operation of parliamentary business. In analysing the priority issues, the committee conducted research into the standing orders and procedures of a number of other Parliaments and Assemblies, and examined closely the prior work of such bodies as the Scottish Constitutional Convention and the consultative steering group. It is the duty of this Parliament and its committees to ensure that our procedures and practices are efficient, effective and in keeping with the spirit of the principles set out by the CSG. I do not intend—nor do I have the time—to go over each of the changes in the report. It would be more helpful to members if I were to focus on some of the major changes that we think are most likely to improve the conduct of business in this Parliament. In particular, the committee has recommended significant amendments to the standing orders in relation to question time, non- Executive half sitting days and parliamentary committees. The format of question time was a vital part of the committee's work. Question time is a key event in the parliamentary week and attracts much public and media attention, so the committee was keen from the earliest days to monitor its operation. We considered that, after what was possibly a patchy start, question time had improved significantly over the months as members became more familiar and comfortable with the format. At the same time, we received a number of submissions from members, including the First Minister and the leaders of the Conservative party and the Scottish National party, to the effect that some adjustments to the present proceedings would improve the utility of question time as a mechanism for holding the Executive to account. The Procedures Committee intends, in line with the CSG report, to facilitate a rigorous approach to accountability. Therefore, the committee agreed to propose an extension of the total period for questioning ministers from 45 minutes to one hour and to introduce First Minister's question time, which will replace open question time. Question time will last for up to 40 minutes and First Minister's question time for up to 20 minutes. We hope that the additional time provided, together with members' enhanced ability to pursue topics with ministers by using supplementary questions, will lead to fuller accountability of the Executive. To improve question time further, the committee also recommends that the deadline for questions for First Minister's question time should be three days before the event, rather than eight days as for question time. We hope that that measure will aid the topicality of questions and, by doing so, add to the interest of questions and answers during First Minister's question time. The committee further agreed that the extra five minutes would allow an increase in the number of questions that the Presiding Officer might select for First Minister's question time from the present three to up to six. The introduction of First Minister's question time is intended to address members' concern that a key element of accountability should be members' ability to question the First Minister weekly. That view was also expressed by the First Minister. My colleagues and I very much hope that the changes—if accepted by the Parliament—will add to the Parliament's standing among the Scottish people, but we are all committed to constant improvement and have undertaken to monitor the changes carefully. If they do not work as envisaged, members should be assured that the committee will return to the issues. On non-Executive half sitting days, the committee considered at length a request from the Green party, the Scottish Socialist party and Dennis Canavan to be allocated one half day each of non-Executive time by increasing the number of non-Executive days from 15 to 18. We concluded, first, that it was necessary to distinguish between the standing of the single-member political parties and non-aligned members. There was unanimous agreement that all political parties that are not represented in the Scottish Executive should be considered for non-Executive business. Therefore, to facilitate the provision of such business time for the two single-member parties, we propose that the number of half sitting days be increased from 15 to 16. In my letter to the Presiding Officer on 15 October, I recommended that that extra half sitting day be allocated to the Scottish Socialist party and the Green party. It will be for those parties, in consultation with the Parliamentary Bureau, to decide how best to utilise that time. On non-aligned members, we recommended to the Presiding Officer that he and the bureau adopted a flexible approach within the current parliamentary rules, including the use of members' business time, to ensure that any such members had the opportunity to put forward the issues that were important to them. Once again, I believe that that recommendation reflects the commitment of the whole committee to the key principles of the CSG and, in particular, to the notion of sharing power. On committee procedure, we recognised that the work of parliamentary committees was central to the Parliament's existence. I have no doubt that the Procedures Committee will consider many aspects of that side of our collective work in Parliament in future. In this round, however, the committee was able to consider only a limited number of issues in relation to the operation of parliamentary committees. First, we were asked by Mike Watson, the convener of the Finance Committee, to consider widening that committee's remit. The Finance Committee was concerned that its remit did not allow it to inquire into the Executive's handling of financial matters beyond the details of the budget proposals or such other documents as the Executive laid before the Parliament to propose public expenditure or tax varying. For example, the committee could not initiate a general inquiry into finance matters relating to or affecting the expenditure of the Scottish Administration or expenditure out of the Scottish consolidated fund. We agreed that the remit was unduly restrictive and recommended the change outlined in annexe 3. Secondly, on the proposal of Kenny MacAskill, the convener of the Subordinate Legislation Committee, we agreed to recommend a change to that committee's remit to allow it to consider and report on general instruments not laid before the Scottish Parliament as a rule. Thirdly, we considered a request from John McAllion, the convener of the Public Petitions Committee, to allow petitions to be lodged by the public during recesses, because it was felt that the present rules were restrictive. That change was also recommended. Fourthly, on the absence of deputy conveners, the committee looked at the procedure for the selection of deputy conveners and made recommendations about temporary conveners. I understand that the matter of deputy conveners has been resolved and that the Parliamentary Bureau will bring forward a motion on that soon, but we have left the proposal on temporary conveners in the report as cover against the possibility that if, for whatever reason, a committee finds itself without a convener and deputy convener, it can continue to discharge its business. Finally, we recommended a change to the standing orders that addressed an anomaly whereby the oldest committee member was not able to decline to chair the initial committee meeting and remain at the meeting. There are many other changes, but I have run out of time and must close. Our intention in bringing forward this report is to begin a process of looking at and revising our standing orders. We want to move forward from the initial statutory instrument, so that Parliament has its own standing orders, which it can improve on an on-going basis. The report is not the last word; it is merely the beginning of a process that is evolutionary and on-going. The committee found the process to be useful and stimulating. I hope that Parliament will find that the recommended changes are acceptable and that they add value to our debates. Anything that we have not touched on can be improved in future, because this matter will continue to be an important part of the committee's remit. I move,That the Parliament notes the terms of the First Report of the Procedures Committee entitled Draft Standing Orders of The Scottish Parliament (SP Paper 28); approves the draft standing orders set out in annex 4 of the Report and now makes the standing orders of the Parliament in terms of that draft, and agrees that those standing orders shall come into force on 17 December 1999.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is with great pleasure that, on behalf of my colleagues on the Procedures Committee and our splendid team of officers, who are arrayed along the back of the chamber, I present to the Parliament a draft set of standing orders. It is appropriate that this is the first committee report to be debated in this chamber. Members will be aware that, since 12 May, when the Parliament first met, we have operated under a set of standing orders that was conferred upon us by a statutory instrument made by the Secretary of State for Scotland.

Rule 17.1 of the Scotland Act 1998 (Transitory and Transitional Provisions) (Standing Orders and Parliamentary Publications) Order 1999 states:

\"The Procedures Committee shall before 6th May 2000, by motion propose to the Parliament a draft set of standing orders.\"

It is a tribute to the focused work of the committee that we are able to bring a draft set of standing orders to the Parliament six months early. Today, we have the opportunity to make our own standing orders and so make a little bit of history in the development of this Parliament.

The Procedures Committee has met eight times. We considered at an early stage that it was important that the Parliament should have its own standing orders and that we should work towards presenting them to the Parliament before the Christmas recess. To be in a position to make our own standing orders is to be at an important stage in the Parliament's coming of age.

We also recognised that the Parliament was still a relatively new body and that it would be reckless to embark upon wholesale changes without the benefit of substantial experience. Furthermore, we recognised that the existing rules were of considerable merit—I pay tribute to those who thought about how the Parliament should work and to the draftsmen who turned those thoughts into the set of rules with which we have been working daily since May. Accordingly, the committee took the view that the current standing orders constituted a sound base for development and that the optimum approach was to consider priority changes in those areas in which members and clerks had detected difficulties in practice.

In identifying the priority changes that were likely to be required, the committee listened carefully to members. Two consultation exercises were carried out and, on behalf of the committee, I thank those colleagues who responded. I pay particular tribute to the contribution of the Executive, and of all political parties, to the complex process of identifying the issues for initial investigation and selecting suggested areas for substantial work.

More than 40 issues were identified in the consultation process. They were collated into subject areas and the clerks prepared papers on each area. The committee considered, discussed and debated each of those papers over a number of months. I am pleased to report that, in the spirit of the new politics, those debates were marked by a constructive approach and much good humour. That is reflected in the fact that, despite the considerable significance of the subject matter, a vote was resorted to on only one occasion—on the issue of summing up debates. Even then, after further consultation with the Executive, we were able to resolve the matter without the need to change the standing orders. That is a tribute to the sound common sense of everyone involved.

Of the papers that we considered, 15 resulted in proposed changes to the standing orders. Those are identified in annexe 3 of our report and are incorporated into a fully revised set of standing orders, which appear as annexe 4. In a moment I will touch on some of the key changes that we propose.

On all the remaining issues, the committee agreed that no change to the standing orders was necessary at this stage, but that a number of changes to parliamentary practice were required. Accordingly, on 15 October, I wrote on behalf of my colleagues to the Presiding Officer—that letter is contained in annexe 2 of the report— recommending that those changes be adopted as good parliamentary practice. I am glad to say that some of those recommendations have already been introduced—I hope that they have improved the smooth operation of parliamentary business.

In analysing the priority issues, the committee conducted research into the standing orders and procedures of a number of other Parliaments and Assemblies, and examined closely the prior work of such bodies as the Scottish Constitutional Convention and the consultative steering group. It is the duty of this Parliament and its committees to ensure that our procedures and practices are efficient, effective and in keeping with the spirit of the principles set out by the CSG.

I do not intend—nor do I have the time—to go over each of the changes in the report. It would be more helpful to members if I were to focus on some of the major changes that we think are most likely to improve the conduct of business in this Parliament. In particular, the committee has recommended significant amendments to the standing orders in relation to question time, non- Executive half sitting days and parliamentary committees.

The format of question time was a vital part of the committee's work. Question time is a key event in the parliamentary week and attracts much public and media attention, so the committee was keen from the earliest days to monitor its operation. We considered that, after what was possibly a patchy start, question time had improved significantly over the months as members became more familiar and comfortable with the format.

At the same time, we received a number of submissions from members, including the First Minister and the leaders of the Conservative party and the Scottish National party, to the effect that some adjustments to the present proceedings would improve the utility of question time as a mechanism for holding the Executive to account.

The Procedures Committee intends, in line with the CSG report, to facilitate a rigorous approach to accountability. Therefore, the committee agreed to propose an extension of the total period for questioning ministers from 45 minutes to one hour and to introduce First Minister's question time, which will replace open question time. Question time will last for up to 40 minutes and First Minister's question time for up to 20 minutes. We hope that the additional time provided, together with members' enhanced ability to pursue topics with ministers by using supplementary questions, will lead to fuller accountability of the Executive.

To improve question time further, the committee also recommends that the deadline for questions for First Minister's question time should be three days before the event, rather than eight days as for question time. We hope that that measure will aid the topicality of questions and, by doing so, add to the interest of questions and answers during First Minister's question time. The committee further agreed that the extra five minutes would allow an increase in the number of questions that the Presiding Officer might select for First Minister's question time from the present three to up to six.

The introduction of First Minister's question time is intended to address members' concern that a key element of accountability should be members' ability to question the First Minister weekly. That view was also expressed by the First Minister. My colleagues and I very much hope that the changes—if accepted by the Parliament—will add to the Parliament's standing among the Scottish people, but we are all committed to constant improvement and have undertaken to monitor the

changes carefully. If they do not work as envisaged, members should be assured that the committee will return to the issues.

On non-Executive half sitting days, the committee considered at length a request from the Green party, the Scottish Socialist party and Dennis Canavan to be allocated one half day each of non-Executive time by increasing the number of non-Executive days from 15 to 18. We concluded, first, that it was necessary to distinguish between the standing of the single-member political parties and non-aligned members. There was unanimous agreement that all political parties that are not represented in the Scottish Executive should be considered for non-Executive business. Therefore, to facilitate the provision of such business time for the two single-member parties, we propose that the number of half sitting days be increased from 15 to 16. In my letter to the Presiding Officer on 15 October, I recommended that that extra half sitting day be allocated to the Scottish Socialist party and the Green party. It will be for those parties, in consultation with the Parliamentary Bureau, to decide how best to utilise that time.

On non-aligned members, we recommended to the Presiding Officer that he and the bureau adopted a flexible approach within the current parliamentary rules, including the use of members' business time, to ensure that any such members had the opportunity to put forward the issues that were important to them. Once again, I believe that that recommendation reflects the commitment of the whole committee to the key principles of the CSG and, in particular, to the notion of sharing power.

On committee procedure, we recognised that the work of parliamentary committees was central to the Parliament's existence. I have no doubt that the Procedures Committee will consider many aspects of that side of our collective work in Parliament in future. In this round, however, the committee was able to consider only a limited number of issues in relation to the operation of parliamentary committees.

First, we were asked by Mike Watson, the convener of the Finance Committee, to consider widening that committee's remit. The Finance Committee was concerned that its remit did not allow it to inquire into the Executive's handling of financial matters beyond the details of the budget proposals or such other documents as the Executive laid before the Parliament to propose public expenditure or tax varying.

For example, the committee could not initiate a general inquiry into finance matters relating to or affecting the expenditure of the Scottish Administration or expenditure out of the Scottish consolidated fund. We agreed that the remit was unduly restrictive and recommended the change outlined in annexe 3.

Secondly, on the proposal of Kenny MacAskill, the convener of the Subordinate Legislation Committee, we agreed to recommend a change to that committee's remit to allow it to consider and report on general instruments not laid before the Scottish Parliament as a rule.

Thirdly, we considered a request from John McAllion, the convener of the Public Petitions Committee, to allow petitions to be lodged by the public during recesses, because it was felt that the present rules were restrictive. That change was also recommended.

Fourthly, on the absence of deputy conveners, the committee looked at the procedure for the selection of deputy conveners and made recommendations about temporary conveners. I understand that the matter of deputy conveners has been resolved and that the Parliamentary Bureau will bring forward a motion on that soon, but we have left the proposal on temporary conveners in the report as cover against the possibility that if, for whatever reason, a committee finds itself without a convener and deputy convener, it can continue to discharge its business.

Finally, we recommended a change to the standing orders that addressed an anomaly whereby the oldest committee member was not able to decline to chair the initial committee meeting and remain at the meeting. There are many other changes, but I have run out of time and must close.

Our intention in bringing forward this report is to begin a process of looking at and revising our standing orders. We want to move forward from the initial statutory instrument, so that Parliament has its own standing orders, which it can improve on an on-going basis. The report is not the last word; it is merely the beginning of a process that is evolutionary and on-going.

The committee found the process to be useful and stimulating. I hope that Parliament will find that the recommended changes are acceptable and that they add value to our debates. Anything that we have not touched on can be improved in future, because this matter will continue to be an important part of the committee's remit.

I move,

That the Parliament notes the terms of the First Report of the Procedures Committee entitled Draft Standing Orders of The Scottish Parliament (SP Paper 28); approves the draft standing orders set out in annex 4 of the Report and now makes the standing orders of the Parliament in terms of that draft, and agrees that those standing orders shall come into force on 17 December 1999.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5607083+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C713598", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Standing Orders", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27191, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 129.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 129.0, "ID": 27191, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 148.0, "ContributionID": 713598, "EditedText": "In such circumstances, I welcome scrutiny from James Douglas-Hamilton, whom one might call the acceptable face of the House of Lords. In reality, there is no place for an unelected or appointed chamber furth of Scotland to scrutinise the work of this Parliament—we should say that formally and strongly. The Procedures Committee has made a good start in the work that it has done. More is to be done, and I look forward to working with my colleagues on that. I believe that the committee is putting in place the ways in which the Parliament can serve the people of Scotland within the limits of the legislation; from my perspective as a nationalist, I hope that it is also putting in place the ways in which a fully independent Parliament can serve the people of Scotland without such limitations.", "EditedTextHTML": "In such circumstances, I welcome scrutiny from James Douglas-Hamilton, whom one might call the acceptable face of the House of Lords. In reality, there is no place for an unelected or appointed chamber furth of Scotland to scrutinise the work of this Parliament—we should say that formally and strongly.

The Procedures Committee has made a good start in the work that it has done. More is to be done, and I look forward to working with my colleagues on that. I believe that the committee is putting in place the ways in which the Parliament can serve the people of Scotland within the limits of the legislation; from my perspective as a nationalist, I hope that it is also putting in place the ways in which a fully independent Parliament can serve the people of Scotland without such limitations.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5607083+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2080E130P217C713600", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Standing Orders", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27191, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 129.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 129.0, "ID": 27191, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lamont, Johann", "ID": 2080, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Pollok" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Johann Lamont", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Johann Lamont (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 154.0, "ContributionID": 713600, "EditedText": "I welcome the opportunity to speak in today's debate. Mike Russell mentioned the anorak's interest in detail but, as a woman involved in several fields, I am always conscious that the devil is in the detail—it is often the subtext that does one in. Debates such as this are important, because the organisational structure often reflects the opportunities for people to contribute. Perhaps I should declare an interest—Fay, who is four, and Colin, who is two. They are the pressures on me to seek assurances that Parliament will honour its family-friendly rhetoric. Members will be aware that the Scottish Parliament was launched with great aspirations— particularly those held by women. Women saw the Parliament as an opportunity to develop a new model of working, to bring Government closer to the aspirations of Scottish women and to get rid of the synthetic anger and adversarial indulgence that we see in Westminster, where our MPs are separated from their families all week and deprived of sleep. For some reason, we are led to believe that that leads to good legislation. We thought that the Scottish Parliament would offer the opportunity for more efficient working practices, with less ritual and more delivery of the goods. We also thought that it would provide a better opportunity for women to stand. Those who fought for the Scottish Parliament believed that it would commit itself to having representatives who lived in the real world. In the past, too many women who might have been interested in political life had to decide between standing or having a family. If our MSPs are not rooted in real life, they are unlikely to be tuned in to what our society needs. There is no better way of putting yourself and your self-importance in perspective as you prepare for a parliamentary meeting than having to persuade your son that his clown outfit for the Hallowe'en do is really very nice and should not be taken off as he comes down the stairs and having to persuade your daughter that she ought not to do that with the broomstick. I do not pretend that this job brings with it the stresses that many people face in a range of occupations for far less remuneration. However, in a world that is driving towards more flexible—not easier—working, it is ironic that our arrangements make it difficult to build flexibility into the care of our children. We argue that family friendliness should be not about doing less, but about allowing people to choose where and when they work. For many women, that means organising their lives so that they can get home but work later on. I want to underline our concerns about the recommendation that Parliament should, on a vote, be permitted to sit until 7 pm. I am disappointed that that recommendation is being made, although I understand why it is being made. Women are used to managing time imaginatively; I contend that this is the least imaginative option. I urge members to ensure that the late sitting takes place only in extreme circumstances, when all other options have been considered. Perhaps we should consider sitting late but holding the vote the next morning—that would allow some flexibility. We must not do anything to hamper or prevent those MSPs with families from playing an active role in the work of the Parliament. We need an attitude that is more likely to enable us to be in tune with those outside the chamber and to listen to their concerns. We should remember that being family friendly is not about providing the means to arrange child care, but about allowing us the space to work and care for our children ourselves. That is a model for good working and a challenge to employers who drive towards presenteeism. Encouraging employees, particularly men, to spend long hours at work away from their families causes many problems. This is a real test for our new Parliament; we will see the result in four years' time, when the electorate sit in judgment. It will also be a test of our idea of family-friendly working. There are two questions. First, will those members who have families stand again? Secondly, will young people, particularly women who may wish to have children in the future, see being an MSP and having a family as a viable option? I hope that, when we come to put the standing orders into practice, our family-friendly rhetoric is matched by family-friendly action. In only the most difficult circumstances should we consider using a Wednesday night. At the heart of our procedures should be a desire to be flexible and considerate to all who wish to participate in the work of the Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the opportunity to speak in today's debate. Mike Russell mentioned the anorak's interest in detail but, as a woman involved in several fields, I am always conscious that the devil is in the detail—it is often the subtext that does one in. Debates such as this are important, because the organisational structure often reflects the opportunities for people to contribute.

Perhaps I should declare an interest—Fay, who is four, and Colin, who is two. They are the pressures on me to seek assurances that Parliament will honour its family-friendly rhetoric. Members will be aware that the Scottish Parliament was launched with great aspirations— particularly those held by women. Women saw the Parliament as an opportunity to develop a new model of working, to bring Government closer to the aspirations of Scottish women and to get rid of the synthetic anger and adversarial indulgence that we see in Westminster, where our MPs are separated from their families all week and deprived of sleep. For some reason, we are led to believe that that leads to good legislation.

We thought that the Scottish Parliament would offer the opportunity for more efficient working practices, with less ritual and more delivery of the goods. We also thought that it would provide a better opportunity for women to stand. Those who fought for the Scottish Parliament believed that it would commit itself to having representatives who lived in the real world. In the past, too many women who might have been interested in political life had to decide between standing or having a family.

If our MSPs are not rooted in real life, they are unlikely to be tuned in to what our society needs. There is no better way of putting yourself and your self-importance in perspective as you prepare for a parliamentary meeting than having to persuade your son that his clown outfit for the Hallowe'en do is really very nice and should not be taken off as he comes down the stairs and having to persuade your daughter that she ought not to do that with the broomstick.

I do not pretend that this job brings with it the stresses that many people face in a range of occupations for far less remuneration. However, in a world that is driving towards more flexible—not easier—working, it is ironic that our arrangements make it difficult to build flexibility into the care of our children. We argue that family friendliness should be not about doing less, but about allowing people to choose where and when they work. For many women, that means organising their lives so that they can get home but work later on.

I want to underline our concerns about the recommendation that Parliament should, on a vote, be permitted to sit until 7 pm. I am disappointed that that recommendation is being made, although I understand why it is being made. Women are used to managing time imaginatively; I contend that this is the least imaginative option. I

urge members to ensure that the late sitting takes place only in extreme circumstances, when all other options have been considered. Perhaps we should consider sitting late but holding the vote the next morning—that would allow some flexibility.

We must not do anything to hamper or prevent those MSPs with families from playing an active role in the work of the Parliament. We need an attitude that is more likely to enable us to be in tune with those outside the chamber and to listen to their concerns.

We should remember that being family friendly is not about providing the means to arrange child care, but about allowing us the space to work and care for our children ourselves. That is a model for good working and a challenge to employers who drive towards presenteeism. Encouraging employees, particularly men, to spend long hours at work away from their families causes many problems.

This is a real test for our new Parliament; we will see the result in four years' time, when the electorate sit in judgment. It will also be a test of our idea of family-friendly working. There are two questions. First, will those members who have families stand again? Secondly, will young people, particularly women who may wish to have children in the future, see being an MSP and having a family as a viable option?

I hope that, when we come to put the standing orders into practice, our family-friendly rhetoric is matched by family-friendly action. In only the most difficult circumstances should we consider using a Wednesday night. At the heart of our procedures should be a desire to be flexible and considerate to all who wish to participate in the work of the Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5607083+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C713606", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27192, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 167.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 167.0, "ID": 27192, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice (Mr Jim Wallace): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 171.0, "ContributionID": 713606, "EditedText": "I am pleased to move this motion to approve the general principles of the Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill. The bill is a major piece of law reform. It has been particularly close to my heart since those campaigning for its introduction approached me more than 18 months ago. It says something about what this Parliament can do that we are able to legislate on such an important area. Those of us who tried to get this legislation through at Westminster were often knocked back and frustrated. The legislation is likely to affect every family in Scotland at some time. The chance we now have to get the legislation on the statute book is an indicator of the real good that the Scottish Parliament can do. The purpose of the bill is to improve the law for adults who lack the capacity to make decisions about their finances and welfare. Adults with incapacity include some people who have dementia or severe learning disabilities or who have suffered strokes or a brain injury. It is estimated that 100,000 people in Scotland are affected by incapacity at any time. Their families and those who look after them are also affected. The bill is part of the wider framework of Scottish ministers' commitment to social justice in which every one of those people matters. The bill will improve their rights and protection and will make the task of caring more straightforward. It will make a real improvement to the quality of life of Scottish people. The process in which we are involved is a shared journey. A great many people helped to identify the need for reform and have helped us to arrive at the proposals in the bill. I understand that campaigning to update the law started as early as 1984. It was prompted by the antiquated and unsatisfactory nature of existing arrangements and the increasing number of people affected by Alzheimer's disease and other forms of dementia. It was also prompted by changing attitudes in society, greater awareness of the rights of those with incapacity and moves away from institutional care to care in the community. I acknowledge the hard work and foresight of those who were involved in the early days of putting forward proposals for reform. The Scottish Law Commission embarked on a major project when it published a discussion paper on the subject in 1991. The paper was debated across Scotland with a variety of interests, including statutory and voluntary bodies and, most important, those involved directly in caring for family or friends. The Scottish Law Commission's report on incapable adults was published in 1995 and included a draft bill. I salute the commission for its breadth of thinking and the care that it took in developing this new framework of law. The commission is the architect of the bill that we are now considering. The shared journey continued when the Scottish Office consulted on the issues in 1997. More than 160 responses were received, but the consultation and listening did not stop then. We have been assisted by groups such as the alliance for the promotion of the bill, by experts in mental health and social work and by many others, including carers. There has been a helpful debate on how to achieve the best outcome for this most vulnerable group of citizens. The process has given us confidence that there is widespread support for the bill. The long consultative journey has embodied the Parliament's aims in developing legislation. However, I am aware of the limited time that the committees have had to consider the bill, and I am particularly grateful to the members of the Justice and Home Affairs Committee for their careful scrutiny, assisted by the Health and Community Care Committee and the Subordinate Legislation Committee. I am also grateful for the Justice and Home Affairs Committee's thoughtful and constructive report to the Parliament. We have made a written response, which is available to all members, and I shall respond to some of the committee's other points today. We are planning to bring forward some technical amendments at stage 2 to improve the bill further. They will include provisions for private international law, which governs how the law of Scotland in this area interacts with that of other countries. I shall have more to say shortly about more substantive amendments. The bill is based on strong and overarching general principles. I want to emphasise that incapacity is not an all or nothing condition, and there will be no labelling based on preconceived notions of what a person can or cannot do, nor will anyone be considered incapable just because they have a learning disability or a mental illness. Doctors will make most formal assessments of incapacity, but we expect them to get advice from others who know the adult and who are aware of the nature of the decisions to be made on the adult's behalf. The bill requires everyone involved in the decision-making process to use appropriate means to communicate with the adult and to find out for themselves what the adult wants. There are other important general principles—whatever is done should be for the direct benefit of the adult. The least intrusive measure must always be chosen to achieve that benefit, and those close to the adult will have a right to be informed and consulted. The Executive has listened to the concerns that have been raised about the bill's definition of the nearest relative who will be one of the people involved in decision making.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am pleased to move this motion to approve the general principles of the Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill. The bill is a major piece of law reform. It has been particularly close to my heart since those campaigning for its introduction approached me more than 18 months ago. It says something about what this Parliament can do that we are able to legislate on such an important area. Those of us who tried to get this legislation through at Westminster were often knocked back and frustrated. The legislation is likely to affect every family in Scotland at some time. The chance we now have to get the legislation on the statute book is an indicator of the real good that the Scottish Parliament can do.

The purpose of the bill is to improve the law for adults who lack the capacity to make decisions about their finances and welfare. Adults with incapacity include some people who have dementia or severe learning disabilities or who have suffered strokes or a brain injury. It is estimated that 100,000 people in Scotland are affected by incapacity at any time. Their families and those who look after them are also affected. The bill is part of the wider framework of Scottish ministers' commitment to social justice in which every one of those people matters. The bill will improve their rights and protection and will make the task of caring more straightforward. It will make a real improvement to the quality of life of Scottish people.

The process in which we are involved is a shared journey. A great many people helped to identify the need for reform and have helped us to

arrive at the proposals in the bill. I understand that campaigning to update the law started as early as 1984. It was prompted by the antiquated and unsatisfactory nature of existing arrangements and the increasing number of people affected by Alzheimer's disease and other forms of dementia. It was also prompted by changing attitudes in society, greater awareness of the rights of those with incapacity and moves away from institutional care to care in the community. I acknowledge the hard work and foresight of those who were involved in the early days of putting forward proposals for reform.

The Scottish Law Commission embarked on a major project when it published a discussion paper on the subject in 1991. The paper was debated across Scotland with a variety of interests, including statutory and voluntary bodies and, most important, those involved directly in caring for family or friends.

The Scottish Law Commission's report on incapable adults was published in 1995 and included a draft bill. I salute the commission for its breadth of thinking and the care that it took in developing this new framework of law. The commission is the architect of the bill that we are now considering.

The shared journey continued when the Scottish Office consulted on the issues in 1997. More than 160 responses were received, but the consultation and listening did not stop then. We have been assisted by groups such as the alliance for the promotion of the bill, by experts in mental health and social work and by many others, including carers. There has been a helpful debate on how to achieve the best outcome for this most vulnerable group of citizens. The process has given us confidence that there is widespread support for the bill.

The long consultative journey has embodied the Parliament's aims in developing legislation. However, I am aware of the limited time that the committees have had to consider the bill, and I am particularly grateful to the members of the Justice and Home Affairs Committee for their careful scrutiny, assisted by the Health and Community Care Committee and the Subordinate Legislation Committee.

I am also grateful for the Justice and Home Affairs Committee's thoughtful and constructive report to the Parliament. We have made a written response, which is available to all members, and I shall respond to some of the committee's other points today.

We are planning to bring forward some technical amendments at stage 2 to improve the bill further. They will include provisions for private international law, which governs how the law of

Scotland in this area interacts with that of other countries. I shall have more to say shortly about more substantive amendments.

The bill is based on strong and overarching general principles. I want to emphasise that incapacity is not an all or nothing condition, and there will be no labelling based on preconceived notions of what a person can or cannot do, nor will anyone be considered incapable just because they have a learning disability or a mental illness. Doctors will make most formal assessments of incapacity, but we expect them to get advice from others who know the adult and who are aware of the nature of the decisions to be made on the adult's behalf.

The bill requires everyone involved in the decision-making process to use appropriate means to communicate with the adult and to find out for themselves what the adult wants. There are other important general principles—whatever is done should be for the direct benefit of the adult. The least intrusive measure must always be chosen to achieve that benefit, and those close to the adult will have a right to be informed and consulted.

The Executive has listened to the concerns that have been raised about the bill's definition of the nearest relative who will be one of the people involved in decision making.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5607083+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C713623", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27192, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 167.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 167.0, "ID": 27192, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 208.0, "ContributionID": 713623, "EditedText": "You are on the list to speak for the Liberal Democrats. Do you want to speak? If not, I can open the general debate.", "EditedTextHTML": "You are on the list to speak for the Liberal Democrats. Do you want to speak? If not, I can open the general debate.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5607083+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1850E185P354C713624", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27192, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 167.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 167.0, "ID": 27192, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Radcliffe, Nora", "ID": 1850, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Gordon" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nora Radcliffe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nora Radcliffe: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 210.0, "ContributionID": 713624, "EditedText": "I have not prepared a speech, but I will make some remarks, wearing my equal opportunities hat. I welcome, in particular, the bill's emphasis on the rights of the individual and the fact that attempts have been made to treat the incapable adult—the person with incapacity—as an individual. I welcome the fact that the bill recognises different degrees of incapacity; that is fundamental. It is much to be welcomed that we are not considering an incapable adult as some sort of entity. The incapable adult is an individual—a person—and the bill goes to considerable lengths to ensure that they are treated as such and to ascertain, as far as possible, exactly what the individual wants. I also welcome the bill's recognition of the rights of same-gender couples. Non-recognition of those rights was a discriminatory element of previous legislation that was to be deplored. I am extremely glad that the Executive has recognised that and that the bill will deal with it.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have not prepared a speech, but I will make some remarks, wearing my equal opportunities hat.

I welcome, in particular, the bill's emphasis on the rights of the individual and the fact that attempts have been made to treat the incapable adult—the person with incapacity—as an individual. I welcome the fact that the bill recognises different degrees of incapacity; that is fundamental. It is much to be welcomed that we are not considering an incapable adult as some sort of entity. The incapable adult is an individual—a person—and the bill goes to considerable lengths to ensure that they are treated as such and to ascertain, as far as possible, exactly what the individual wants.

I also welcome the bill's recognition of the rights of same-gender couples. Non-recognition of those rights was a discriminatory element of previous legislation that was to be deplored. I am extremely glad that the Executive has recognised that and that the bill will deal with it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5607083+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C713610", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27192, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 167.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 167.0, "ID": 27192, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 179.0, "ContributionID": 713610, "EditedText": "Malcolm Chisholm is talking about situations in which there is a conflict of opinion between the doctor and the guardian on a proposed course of action. We have tried to create a balance, which no one pretends is easy to strike. We have allowed a second medical opinion, to ensure that the view of not only one doctor would prevail in such cases. We have also provided for recourse to the courts, in the event of a dispute. A reasonable balance has been struck in a difficult area. I have no doubt, however, that we will return to these matters at stage 2, during detailed committee scrutiny, when that balance can be explored further. We have listened to the concerns that have been expressed to us, and have tried to act on them by striking a different balance from that which was proposed in the original draft of the bill. I believe that the balance that we have struck gives weight to the various concerns. However, as I said, I am sure that we will return to that issue. There have been demands to include a statutory duty of care for welfare attorneys and guardians in this bill. The intention behind that proposal is good, but we are convinced that that statutory duty is neither necessary nor desirable. As the Scottish Law Commission said in 1995, a duty of care already exists. Section 73 of the bill refers to that duty and to the requirement for attorneys and guardians to act in good faith. The contribution of Professor Sheila McLean, in her evidence to the Justice and Home Affairs Committee, which is reported in the appendices to the report, is well argued and sets out the position clearly. It is clear that attorneys and guardians must follow the general principles and codes of practice, and must seek professional advice when that is appropriate. Professional duties of care exist only in relation to specific services. A statutory duty in the bill for welfare attorneys and guardians would be extremely difficult to enforce. We are convinced that we should not go down that road. The Justice and Home Affairs Committee sought clarification of our decision not to include provisions on advance statements in this bill. Our position remains that we have no plans to legislate in that controversial area, in which there is a sharp division of public opinion. How does that sit alongside the requirement in the bill to take account of the present and past wishes of the adult? The Executive sees a clear distinction. The provision in section 1 of the bill to take the adult's wishes into account is intended to impose a responsibility to establish what the adult wants, or has previously expressed a wish for. The provision does not, however, have a bearing on the legal status afforded to an advance statement or living will that was made by an adult when they had the capacity to do so. The provisions on research in section 48 have also attracted a good deal of comment. That is a sensitive area in which it is necessary to ensure that the interests and well-being of the adult are fully protected. We have, therefore, been careful to construct the terms of section 48 as tightly as possible. The conditions placed on such research are rightly onerous. There have been persuasive arguments that the type of research allowed should be broadened slightly. Research is, by its very nature, more likely to be of general benefit than of benefit to an individual and there is a case for slightly greater latitude. I propose, therefore, to bring forward at stage 2 an amendment based on the Council of Europe's Convention on Human Rights and Biomedicine, which has already been accepted by many European countries and is seen as an international standard. That will permit research in exceptional situations; research that aims to benefit, through significant improvements in the scientific understanding of an individual's condition, disease or disorder, the person concerned or other persons in the same age category who are afflicted with the same disease or who have the same condition. Section 45 of the bill allows certain treatments to be excepted from the general authority to treat in section 44 of the bill. In finalising which treatments should be excepted, we have made it clear that we will take on board the views expressed in the Parliament and by the Millan committee. That remains our position. I want, however, to be open with members about our current thinking and, with that in mind, I will now outline the specific treatments that, subject to comments, we propose at this stage should be covered by regulations made under section 45. We recognise that electroconvulsive therapy is a controversial treatment and we intend, therefore, that ECT should be possible under this bill only where a favourable second medical opinion has been obtained. For three other treatments, we believe that Court of Session approval should be necessary. Those are psychosurgery, sterilisation and the implantation of hormones to reduce sexual drive. Part 5 of the bill has, perhaps unsurprisingly, provoked the greatest debate. I believe that some of the changes that I have outlined today will improve the bill, and will ease the anxieties of those who have had concerns about its purpose. Finally, I am sure that the Parliament will want to know the eagerly awaited timetable for implementing the bill. We want to press on with the bill as fast as possible; no one is under any illusion that there is not a great deal of work to be done. Nevertheless, up to half the changes could be made by April 2001. By then we hope to have set up the public guardian's office, to have introduced provisions for continuing and welfare attorneys and provisions for the access to funds scheme. The medical treatment and research provisions could be implemented by summer 2001. We intend that arrangements for managing residents' finances will be implemented in September 2001, when we hope the new Scottish commission for the regulation of care will become operational, following the passage of a bill to establish it. Intervention orders and the new form of guardianship should be in place by April 2002. We shall set up a national implementation steering group, which will include some of the key organisations that will be preparing themselves for implementation and that can advise the Executive on what needs to be done. We want to make sure that carers' and service users' views are effectively represented. As the Justice and Home Affairs Committee says in its report, this bill is good. We have worked hard to ensure consensus of opinion in some difficult areas. There is agreement that reform of the law is long overdue. I look forward to the debate today, and to the rest of the shared journey towards passing this important legislation. I move,That the Parliament agrees to the general principles of the Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill.", "EditedTextHTML": "Malcolm Chisholm is talking about situations in which there is a conflict of opinion between the doctor and the guardian on a proposed course of action. We have tried to create a balance, which no one pretends is easy to strike. We have allowed a second medical opinion, to ensure that the view of not only one doctor would prevail in such cases. We have also provided for recourse to the courts, in the event of a dispute.

A reasonable balance has been struck in a difficult area. I have no doubt, however, that we will return to these matters at stage 2, during detailed committee scrutiny, when that balance can be explored further. We have listened to the concerns that have been expressed to us, and have tried to act on them by striking a different balance from that which was proposed in the original draft of the bill. I believe that the balance that we have struck gives weight to the various concerns. However, as I said, I am sure that we will return to that issue.

There have been demands to include a statutory duty of care for welfare attorneys and guardians in this bill. The intention behind that proposal is good, but we are convinced that that statutory duty is neither necessary nor desirable. As the Scottish Law Commission said in 1995, a duty of care already exists. Section 73 of the bill refers to that duty and to the requirement for attorneys and guardians to act in good faith.

The contribution of Professor Sheila McLean, in her evidence to the Justice and Home Affairs Committee, which is reported in the appendices to the report, is well argued and sets out the position clearly. It is clear that attorneys and guardians must follow the general principles and codes of practice, and must seek professional advice when that is appropriate. Professional duties of care exist only in relation to specific services. A statutory duty in the bill for welfare attorneys and guardians would be extremely difficult to enforce. We are convinced that we should not go down that road.

The Justice and Home Affairs Committee sought clarification of our decision not to include provisions on advance statements in this bill. Our position remains that we have no plans to legislate in that controversial area, in which there is a sharp division of public opinion.

How does that sit alongside the requirement in the bill to take account of the present and past wishes of the adult? The Executive sees a clear distinction. The provision in section 1 of the bill to take the adult's wishes into account is intended to impose a responsibility to establish what the adult wants, or has previously expressed a wish for. The provision does not, however, have a bearing on the legal status afforded to an advance statement or living will that was made by an adult when they had the capacity to do so.

The provisions on research in section 48 have also attracted a good deal of comment. That is a sensitive area in which it is necessary to ensure that the interests and well-being of the adult are fully protected. We have, therefore, been careful to construct the terms of section 48 as tightly as possible. The conditions placed on such research are rightly onerous.

There have been persuasive arguments that the type of research allowed should be broadened slightly. Research is, by its very nature, more likely to be of general benefit than of benefit to an individual and there is a case for slightly greater

latitude. I propose, therefore, to bring forward at stage 2 an amendment based on the Council of Europe's Convention on Human Rights and Biomedicine, which has already been accepted by many European countries and is seen as an international standard. That will permit research in exceptional situations; research that aims to benefit, through significant improvements in the scientific understanding of an individual's condition, disease or disorder, the person concerned or other persons in the same age category who are afflicted with the same disease or who have the same condition.

Section 45 of the bill allows certain treatments to be excepted from the general authority to treat in section 44 of the bill. In finalising which treatments should be excepted, we have made it clear that we will take on board the views expressed in the Parliament and by the Millan committee. That remains our position. I want, however, to be open with members about our current thinking and, with that in mind, I will now outline the specific treatments that, subject to comments, we propose at this stage should be covered by regulations made under section 45. We recognise that electroconvulsive therapy is a controversial treatment and we intend, therefore, that ECT should be possible under this bill only where a favourable second medical opinion has been obtained. For three other treatments, we believe that Court of Session approval should be necessary. Those are psychosurgery, sterilisation and the implantation of hormones to reduce sexual drive.

Part 5 of the bill has, perhaps unsurprisingly, provoked the greatest debate. I believe that some of the changes that I have outlined today will improve the bill, and will ease the anxieties of those who have had concerns about its purpose.

Finally, I am sure that the Parliament will want to know the eagerly awaited timetable for implementing the bill. We want to press on with the bill as fast as possible; no one is under any illusion that there is not a great deal of work to be done. Nevertheless, up to half the changes could be made by April 2001. By then we hope to have set up the public guardian's office, to have introduced provisions for continuing and welfare attorneys and provisions for the access to funds scheme.

The medical treatment and research provisions could be implemented by summer 2001. We intend that arrangements for managing residents' finances will be implemented in September 2001, when we hope the new Scottish commission for the regulation of care will become operational, following the passage of a bill to establish it. Intervention orders and the new form of guardianship should be in place by April 2002.

We shall set up a national implementation steering group, which will include some of the key organisations that will be preparing themselves for implementation and that can advise the Executive on what needs to be done. We want to make sure that carers' and service users' views are effectively represented.

As the Justice and Home Affairs Committee says in its report, this bill is good. We have worked hard to ensure consensus of opinion in some difficult areas. There is agreement that reform of the law is long overdue. I look forward to the debate today, and to the rest of the shared journey towards passing this important legislation.

I move,

That the Parliament agrees to the general principles of the Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5607083+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1863E284P532C713611", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27192, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 167.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 167.0, "ID": 27192, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Cunningham, Roseanna", "ID": 1863, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Perth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Roseanna Cunningham", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Roseanna Cunningham (Perth) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 182.0, "ContributionID": 713611, "EditedText": "It is only right that, as convener of the Justice and Home Affairs Committee, I take a few minutes in the chamber to comment on the committee's experience of dealing with the bill. I hope that I will be allowed a little latitude to do that. It is fair to say that all members of the committee feel as if they have come out of a long, dark tunnel only to be faced with another long, dark tunnel at stage 2 of consideration of the bill. I would first, and most importantly, like to express my appreciation of the work that was put in by every member of the committee in a difficult period, when the committee worked extremely hard. We have been dealing not only with this bill, but with the Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill, which will be debated next week. The committee has also had a member's bill referred to it and has continued to progress two items of specific committee interest—prisons and domestic violence—which we began to examine in September. On top of that, the committee has dealt with a variety of petitions and items that have been referred to it by the Subordinate Legislation Committee and the European Committee. Our work load has been colossal, so it is lucky that all members of the committee managed to retain their sense of humour and—more important—the sense that we were working as a committee, not just as a collection of more or less party political individuals. In the past two months, when we dealt with stage 1 of this bill and the Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill, there were times when we felt like guinea pigs. If we occasionally plaintively asked one another what a stage 1 report looked like, it can now be judged whether we got it right. That we managed to get this far is in no small measure due to the excellent work of the committee clerk and his team; they worked flat out and we owe them a great debt. We are very lucky to have them and I hope they, too, felt part of a real team. The approach that we adopted to the report reflects our belief that it is important to represent in it all shades of opinion in the committee. Not all opinions were held unanimously but, in my view, to refuse to record views because they were not held by all members of the committee would be to misrepresent the range of views on aspects of this and, no doubt, other bills. If we say that a view was held by the committee as a whole, it was; anything less than a unanimous view has been recorded with the appropriate qualification. On this bill, it was important that we did that, because far more of it was controversial than might have been anticipated. We were aware of the extensive consultation undertaken by the Scottish Law Commission, which did the initial drafting. The committee took its own informal briefings during the summer recess, so that we would be better prepared to deal with the bill. We heard oral evidence from seven organisations and from one individual, Professor Sheila McLean, over three meetings. We could easily have heard a good deal more evidence from organisations and individuals. Even now, I am getting letters from organisations and individuals confidently expecting to be able to continue giving evidence at stage 2. That would have a serious impact on the timetable; we might have to discuss that. The areas of particular concern are highlighted in our report and arise principally from a handful of sections on the medical aspects of the bill. I will return to them later. Returning to my shadow justice persona, I emphasise that if the Scottish National party had won on 6 May, we would all still have been here today debating essentially the same bill. We had a manifesto commitment to the introduction of an adults with incapacity bill and had also set our faces against including living wills in it. On SNP benches, therefore, there is support for the legislation, which I suspect extends to all parties. That is because of the clear need for reform. In the welter of coverage of the controversial parts of the bill, the very real difficulties that people face right now have been overlooked. I hope that members have read the evidence highlighting some of those problems, by organisations such as ENABLE and the alliance for the promotion of the incapable adults bill. The large and increasing number of people who have had to deal with a member of their family who can be described as incapable—and I am in that position—will know that there is little choice between the existing power of attorney, which was not designed for those with incapacity, and the nuclear option of appointing a curator bonis. I say nuclear option because the curator takes over the management of the whole estate, although the level of incapacity might mean that some money matters could be understood and handled by the individual. Nor does that system work when the incapacity is over the short term rather than the longer term. There are problems even when people think that they have sorted out their affairs through a joint account. A bank or a building society can, and often does, freeze the whole account when one of a couple becomes incapable. Just as bad is the situation that can occur when one person goes into hospital and the hospital takes over the management of their finances, effectively excluding their perhaps very long-term partner from further involvement. Those are all actual examples of what can happen currently, and they make the need for the bill very apparent. The bill would allow a new form of welfare power of attorney, which would mean that medical and financial decisions could be delegated without having to do so on the once- and-for-all basis that is the case now. It would allow most of those functions to be carried out without the time-consuming and expensive process of going to court. At present the position regarding who can decide what, when it comes to medical treatment of an incapable adult, is highly uncertain. Doctors can feel legally unprotected, even when they are making relatively minor and routine decisions about treatment. Alternatively, they have to delay necessary treatment until some kind of authority can be sought. The bill clarifies the legal justification for administering medical treatments that might otherwise be regarded as common assaults. We should not run away from the problem that doctors and nurses occasionally feel that they have to do something for which they could be prosecuted. The fact that they are not is a measure of the common sense of most people involved. However, that does not solve the problem that doctors and nurses are leaving themselves open, potentially, to prosecution in a situation in which most of us recognise that that should not happen. For all the good that the bill does, we would be foolish not to recognise that it has other, more controversial aspects that have not been dealt with by the decision to remove the sections recognising advance directives or living wills that were contained in the Scottish Law Commission's original draft. When the bill was first announced, many people were relieved by the indication that those sections would not be included, because they felt that that meant that we would not become bogged down in the long-drawn-out arguments to which the recognition of advance directives or living wills would have given rise. However, lo and behold, we are having those arguments all the same. The exclusion of the sections that I mentioned was widely welcomed— as I indicated at the beginning of my speech, had the SNP been in government, we would also have excluded them—but there are still strongly expressed concerns that have not been alleviated. There is no doubt that much of the debate today and at stage 2 will centre on those concerns. I cannot list them, but later speakers will no doubt pick on some of the issues that they feel need further clarification. Some of what the minister has said today and some of the concessions that he has already indicated will be made might help to address those concerns. However, we will have to await the response of the various organisations and individuals involved to see whether they feel that the amendments that are being trailed today go far enough. One overarching concern has been what is meant precisely by the word \"intervention\" in section 1 of the bill. Witness after witness, including the bill team from the Scottish Executive, has assured Parliament, through the Justice and Home Affairs Committee, that intervention is meant to describe something that has happened— what might be termed an act of commission. However, others have equally strongly pointed out that, unless defined, an intervention could also be held to be an act of omission. That is what is giving rise to a great deal of the concern. Perhaps it would be useful to provide a clear definition of the word \"intervention\" in the legislation. That would go a considerable way towards relieving the anxieties of those who feel that the end result of passing the bill will be decisions not to treat, rather than what it is being presented as—legal justification to treat. The ability to treat is important—I have already referred to the fact that, strictly speaking, doctors and nurses might at the moment be doing things that could technically be described as assault. The dangers inherent in not treating are currently hugely controversial, as recent newspaper articles—not about the bill, but about practices that it is alleged take place throughout the national health service—highlight. Concern is being stoked up by that external controversy, which does not relate directly to the bill. If it is not the Executive's intention to permit the refusal of treatment, perhaps that should be more clearly spelled out than has been the case until now. It might be said that it is not necessary to do that when that is not what is meant, but one could equally argue that there is no reason not to do so, because it can do no harm to the overall intent of the bill. Another issue that arises out evidence taken at stage 1 is the question of advance directives or living wills. The Executive took a decision to exclude them from the legislation, despite the fact that they were included in the Scottish Law Commission's original draft bill. I have already indicated that that would also have been the SNP's view, had we been in government. The Justice and Home Affairs Committee recognises the reasoning behind the decision and supports it. The decision to exclude advance directives was widely welcomed as sensible, given that to include them would have risked the whole bill over that argument. The difficulty that I and, perhaps, some members of the Justice and Home Affairs Committee have is that, having heard the evidence of the British Medical Association, which was that the existence of an advance directive will have enormous weight when a decision about treatment is made, we began to wonder whether advance directives would be imported into the scenario in any case. If one accepts that section 1(4)(a), to which the minister referred, is correct and that account has to be taken of \"the present and past wishes and feelings of the adult so far as they can be ascertained\", it is difficult to imagine any clearer expression of those wishes than an advance directive— basically, that is what the BMA told us. As a result of that recognition, the Royal College of Nursing has expressed concern that the bill will in practice result in enormous weight being attached to entirely unregulated living wills. That issue needs consideration. Perhaps the decision to exclude advance directives was taken in the clear knowledge that, in practice, they could not be excluded, and that there was no point in having a row about something that was inevitable. However, the concern of the RCN should at least be recognised. I do not have any specific suggestion as to how that could be done. I think that most of us do not want living wills to become part of statutory law, although perhaps they will become part of our law, willy-nilly. We have to think carefully about how we deal with that issue.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is only right that, as convener of the Justice and Home Affairs Committee, I take a few minutes in the chamber to comment on the committee's experience of dealing with the bill. I hope that I will be allowed a little latitude to do that. It is fair to say that all members of the committee feel as if they have come out of a long, dark tunnel only to be faced with another long, dark tunnel at stage 2 of consideration of the bill.

I would first, and most importantly, like to express my appreciation of the work that was put in by every member of the committee in a difficult period, when the committee worked extremely hard. We have been dealing not only with this bill, but with the Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill, which will be debated next week. The committee has also had a member's bill referred to it and has continued to progress two items of specific committee interest—prisons and domestic violence—which we began to examine in September. On top of that, the committee has dealt with a variety of petitions and items that have been referred to it by the Subordinate Legislation Committee and the European Committee.

Our work load has been colossal, so it is lucky that all members of the committee managed to retain their sense of humour and—more important—the sense that we were working as a committee, not just as a collection of more or less party political individuals.

In the past two months, when we dealt with stage 1 of this bill and the Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill, there were times when we felt like guinea pigs. If we occasionally plaintively asked one another what a stage 1 report looked like, it can now be judged whether we got it right. That we managed to get this far is in no small measure due to the excellent work of

the committee clerk and his team; they worked flat out and we owe them a great debt. We are very lucky to have them and I hope they, too, felt part of a real team.

The approach that we adopted to the report reflects our belief that it is important to represent in it all shades of opinion in the committee. Not all opinions were held unanimously but, in my view, to refuse to record views because they were not held by all members of the committee would be to misrepresent the range of views on aspects of this and, no doubt, other bills. If we say that a view was held by the committee as a whole, it was; anything less than a unanimous view has been recorded with the appropriate qualification. On this bill, it was important that we did that, because far more of it was controversial than might have been anticipated.

We were aware of the extensive consultation undertaken by the Scottish Law Commission, which did the initial drafting. The committee took its own informal briefings during the summer recess, so that we would be better prepared to deal with the bill. We heard oral evidence from seven organisations and from one individual, Professor Sheila McLean, over three meetings. We could easily have heard a good deal more evidence from organisations and individuals. Even now, I am getting letters from organisations and individuals confidently expecting to be able to continue giving evidence at stage 2. That would have a serious impact on the timetable; we might have to discuss that. The areas of particular concern are highlighted in our report and arise principally from a handful of sections on the medical aspects of the bill. I will return to them later.

Returning to my shadow justice persona, I emphasise that if the Scottish National party had won on 6 May, we would all still have been here today debating essentially the same bill. We had a manifesto commitment to the introduction of an adults with incapacity bill and had also set our faces against including living wills in it. On SNP benches, therefore, there is support for the legislation, which I suspect extends to all parties. That is because of the clear need for reform.

In the welter of coverage of the controversial parts of the bill, the very real difficulties that people face right now have been overlooked. I hope that members have read the evidence highlighting some of those problems, by organisations such as ENABLE and the alliance for the promotion of the incapable adults bill. The large and increasing number of people who have had to deal with a member of their family who can be described as incapable—and I am in that position—will know that there is little choice between the existing power of attorney, which was not designed for those with incapacity, and the nuclear option of appointing a curator bonis.

I say nuclear option because the curator takes over the management of the whole estate, although the level of incapacity might mean that some money matters could be understood and handled by the individual. Nor does that system work when the incapacity is over the short term rather than the longer term. There are problems even when people think that they have sorted out their affairs through a joint account. A bank or a building society can, and often does, freeze the whole account when one of a couple becomes incapable. Just as bad is the situation that can occur when one person goes into hospital and the hospital takes over the management of their finances, effectively excluding their perhaps very long-term partner from further involvement.

Those are all actual examples of what can happen currently, and they make the need for the bill very apparent. The bill would allow a new form of welfare power of attorney, which would mean that medical and financial decisions could be delegated without having to do so on the once- and-for-all basis that is the case now. It would allow most of those functions to be carried out without the time-consuming and expensive process of going to court.

At present the position regarding who can decide what, when it comes to medical treatment of an incapable adult, is highly uncertain. Doctors can feel legally unprotected, even when they are making relatively minor and routine decisions about treatment. Alternatively, they have to delay necessary treatment until some kind of authority can be sought. The bill clarifies the legal justification for administering medical treatments that might otherwise be regarded as common assaults. We should not run away from the problem that doctors and nurses occasionally feel that they have to do something for which they could be prosecuted. The fact that they are not is a measure of the common sense of most people involved. However, that does not solve the problem that doctors and nurses are leaving themselves open, potentially, to prosecution in a situation in which most of us recognise that that should not happen.

For all the good that the bill does, we would be foolish not to recognise that it has other, more controversial aspects that have not been dealt with by the decision to remove the sections recognising advance directives or living wills that were contained in the Scottish Law Commission's original draft. When the bill was first announced, many people were relieved by the indication that those sections would not be included, because they felt that that meant that we would not become bogged down in the long-drawn-out arguments to

which the recognition of advance directives or living wills would have given rise.

However, lo and behold, we are having those arguments all the same. The exclusion of the sections that I mentioned was widely welcomed— as I indicated at the beginning of my speech, had the SNP been in government, we would also have excluded them—but there are still strongly expressed concerns that have not been alleviated. There is no doubt that much of the debate today and at stage 2 will centre on those concerns.

I cannot list them, but later speakers will no doubt pick on some of the issues that they feel need further clarification. Some of what the minister has said today and some of the concessions that he has already indicated will be made might help to address those concerns. However, we will have to await the response of the various organisations and individuals involved to see whether they feel that the amendments that are being trailed today go far enough.

One overarching concern has been what is meant precisely by the word \"intervention\" in section 1 of the bill. Witness after witness, including the bill team from the Scottish Executive, has assured Parliament, through the Justice and Home Affairs Committee, that intervention is meant to describe something that has happened— what might be termed an act of commission. However, others have equally strongly pointed out that, unless defined, an intervention could also be held to be an act of omission. That is what is giving rise to a great deal of the concern.

Perhaps it would be useful to provide a clear definition of the word \"intervention\" in the legislation. That would go a considerable way towards relieving the anxieties of those who feel that the end result of passing the bill will be decisions not to treat, rather than what it is being presented as—legal justification to treat. The ability to treat is important—I have already referred to the fact that, strictly speaking, doctors and nurses might at the moment be doing things that could technically be described as assault.

The dangers inherent in not treating are currently hugely controversial, as recent newspaper articles—not about the bill, but about practices that it is alleged take place throughout the national health service—highlight. Concern is being stoked up by that external controversy, which does not relate directly to the bill. If it is not the Executive's intention to permit the refusal of treatment, perhaps that should be more clearly spelled out than has been the case until now. It might be said that it is not necessary to do that when that is not what is meant, but one could equally argue that there is no reason not to do so, because it can do no harm to the overall intent of the bill.

Another issue that arises out evidence taken at stage 1 is the question of advance directives or living wills. The Executive took a decision to exclude them from the legislation, despite the fact that they were included in the Scottish Law Commission's original draft bill. I have already indicated that that would also have been the SNP's view, had we been in government. The Justice and Home Affairs Committee recognises the reasoning behind the decision and supports it.

The decision to exclude advance directives was widely welcomed as sensible, given that to include them would have risked the whole bill over that argument. The difficulty that I and, perhaps, some members of the Justice and Home Affairs Committee have is that, having heard the evidence of the British Medical Association, which was that the existence of an advance directive will have enormous weight when a decision about treatment is made, we began to wonder whether advance directives would be imported into the scenario in any case.

If one accepts that section 1(4)(a), to which the minister referred, is correct and that account has to be taken of

\"the present and past wishes and feelings of the adult so far as they can be ascertained\", it is difficult to imagine any clearer expression of those wishes than an advance directive— basically, that is what the BMA told us.

As a result of that recognition, the Royal College of Nursing has expressed concern that the bill will in practice result in enormous weight being attached to entirely unregulated living wills. That issue needs consideration. Perhaps the decision to exclude advance directives was taken in the clear knowledge that, in practice, they could not be excluded, and that there was no point in having a row about something that was inevitable. However, the concern of the RCN should at least be recognised. I do not have any specific suggestion as to how that could be done. I think that most of us do not want living wills to become part of statutory law, although perhaps they will become part of our law, willy-nilly. We have to think carefully about how we deal with that issue.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5607083+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C713616", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27192, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 167.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 167.0, "ID": 27192, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 192.0, "ContributionID": 713616, "EditedText": "You are two minutes over.", "EditedTextHTML": "You are two minutes over.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5763323+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713632", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27193, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 222.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 222.0, "ID": 27193, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 227.0, "ContributionID": 713632, "EditedText": "Wednesday 15 December 1999", "EditedTextHTML": "Wednesday 15 December 1999

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5763323+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1916E38P70C713618", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27192, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 167.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 167.0, "ID": 27192, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Ben", "ID": 1916, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ben Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ben Wallace (North-East Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 197.0, "ContributionID": 713618, "EditedText": "I speak as the reporting member of the Health and Community Care Committee and as the deputy health spokesman for the Conservative party. When I welcome the changes that the Minister for Justice has announced, I can do so only on behalf of my party—I would not like to speak for the committee on that. I am sure that the changes are very much to the point and have gone a long way to making my speech much shorter. The Health and Community Care Committee has had a heavy work load recently, although discussion of our work on the Arbuthnott report is for another time and place. I was given the proposed bill on a Friday evening and asked to report on it by the following Wednesday morning after a visit to the Justice and Home Affairs Committee on the Tuesday. Although all members recognise the need for the bill and welcome it, that does not mean that we should be bounced into it. I apologise to any members of the Justice and Home Affairs Committee and the Health and Community Care Committee who might have felt that my report was not as robust as it could have been if more time had been available. As someone who has found himself rather incapacitated on many a Saturday night, I welcome any measure that protects the rights and welfare of individuals with incapacity. On a more serious point, however, I know that people throughout Scotland will appreciate the steps that are being taken to ensure that adults with a variety of mental and learning difficulties will have their lives and affairs better managed. The bill attempts to ensure that the wishes of adults with incapacity are observed while, at the same time, legislation is in place that will ensure that no advantage is taken of those people. In my report to the Health and Community Care Committee, I covered parts 1, 5 and 7 of the bill. Part 1 deals with general principles and definitions, part 5 ensures that those who are responsible for medical treatment are given the correct authority to treat the adult who is deemed incapable, and part 7 plugs many of the loopholes, concerns and limits of liability. It is disappointing to note that, in comparison with similar legislation in other countries, the bill makes no attempt to recognise partial or temporary incapacity. Jim Wallace expects general practitioners to come to decisions in agreement with incapable adults and their carers, but the bill does not cover that. Other countries have gone some way towards realising that assisted decision making can be used in classifying someone as incapacitated. Many people can make sound and qualified decisions with assistance—indeed, the Liberal Democrats do it all the time. Will the Minister for Justice assure me that when the Millan committee reports with its new definitions of mental health, he will review the position of the bill? If the definition of incapacity changes radically, the bill should be flexible enough to reflect that difference.", "EditedTextHTML": "I speak as the reporting member of the Health and Community Care Committee and as the deputy health spokesman for the Conservative party. When I welcome the changes that the Minister for

Justice has announced, I can do so only on behalf of my party—I would not like to speak for the committee on that. I am sure that the changes are very much to the point and have gone a long way to making my speech much shorter.

The Health and Community Care Committee has had a heavy work load recently, although discussion of our work on the Arbuthnott report is for another time and place. I was given the proposed bill on a Friday evening and asked to report on it by the following Wednesday morning after a visit to the Justice and Home Affairs Committee on the Tuesday. Although all members recognise the need for the bill and welcome it, that does not mean that we should be bounced into it. I apologise to any members of the Justice and Home Affairs Committee and the Health and Community Care Committee who might have felt that my report was not as robust as it could have been if more time had been available.

As someone who has found himself rather incapacitated on many a Saturday night, I welcome any measure that protects the rights and welfare of individuals with incapacity. On a more serious point, however, I know that people throughout Scotland will appreciate the steps that are being taken to ensure that adults with a variety of mental and learning difficulties will have their lives and affairs better managed.

The bill attempts to ensure that the wishes of adults with incapacity are observed while, at the same time, legislation is in place that will ensure that no advantage is taken of those people. In my report to the Health and Community Care Committee, I covered parts 1, 5 and 7 of the bill. Part 1 deals with general principles and definitions, part 5 ensures that those who are responsible for medical treatment are given the correct authority to treat the adult who is deemed incapable, and part 7 plugs many of the loopholes, concerns and limits of liability.

It is disappointing to note that, in comparison with similar legislation in other countries, the bill makes no attempt to recognise partial or temporary incapacity. Jim Wallace expects general practitioners to come to decisions in agreement with incapable adults and their carers, but the bill does not cover that. Other countries have gone some way towards realising that assisted decision making can be used in classifying someone as incapacitated. Many people can make sound and qualified decisions with assistance—indeed, the Liberal Democrats do it all the time.

Will the Minister for Justice assure me that when the Millan committee reports with its new definitions of mental health, he will review the position of the bill? If the definition of incapacity changes radically, the bill should be flexible

enough to reflect that difference.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5763323+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713636", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27193, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 222.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 222.0, "ID": 27193, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 231.0, "ContributionID": 713636, "EditedText": "5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business—debate on the subject of S1M-297 Dr Sylvia Jackson: Cornton Vale—Iain Smith.", "EditedTextHTML": "5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business—debate on the subject of S1M-297 Dr Sylvia Jackson: Cornton Vale—[Iain Smith.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5763323+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1926E190P479C713637", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27193, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 222.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 222.0, "ID": 27193, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Adam, Brian", "ID": 1926, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Adam", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Brian Adam (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 232.0, "ContributionID": 713637, "EditedText": "May I ask the Presiding Officer whether it is the intention of the Executive to make a statement on Mr John Rafferty's future? I ask that in relation to the business motion because there are a number of rumours circulating about that possibility. It would be courteous to let Parliament know whether the Executive intends to make such a statement. Many members would welcome it.", "EditedTextHTML": "May I ask the Presiding Officer whether it is the intention of the Executive to make a statement on Mr John Rafferty's future? I ask that in relation to the business motion because there are a number of rumours circulating about that possibility. It would be courteous to let Parliament know whether the Executive intends to make such a statement. Many members would welcome it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5763323+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713639", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27193, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 222.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 222.0, "ID": 27193, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 236.0, "ContributionID": 713639, "EditedText": "The question is, that business motion S1M-364 be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "The question is, that business motion S1M-364 be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5763323+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713640", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27193, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 222.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 222.0, "ID": 27193, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 238.0, "ContributionID": 713640, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5763323+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713641", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Amnesic Shellfish Poisoning", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27194, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 239.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 239.0, "ID": 27194, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 240.0, "ContributionID": 713641, "EditedText": "Motion moved,", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion moved,

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5763323+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713645", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27195, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 245.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 245.0, "ID": 27195, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 246.0, "ContributionID": 713645, "EditedText": "Motion moved,", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion moved,

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5763323+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713650", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27195, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 245.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 245.0, "ID": 27195, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 252.0, "ContributionID": 713650, "EditedText": "Meeting adjourned at 12:29.", "EditedTextHTML": "Meeting adjourned at 12:29.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5763323+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C713652", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27195, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 245.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 245.0, "ID": 27195, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell (South of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 255.0, "ContributionID": 713652, "EditedText": "On a point of order, Presiding Officer. At 12.20 this morning, the Deputy Minister for Parliament said that there would be no statement on the matter of John Rafferty. A press statement was issued at 12.52 announcing that Mr Rafferty would leave the Executive's employment. Have you had notice that the Executive will make a statement, and do you think that the Executive should make a statement on the matter? The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): In fairness to the deputy minister, he said that there would be no statement to Parliament. Someone joining or leaving the employment of the Executive is not a major policy announcement of the kind that must be made to Parliament. In any case, on this day of all days, people have the chance to question the First Minister if they feel strongly about the matter.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order, Presiding Officer. At 12.20 this morning, the Deputy Minister for Parliament said that there would be no statement on the matter of John Rafferty. A press statement was issued at

12.52 announcing that Mr Rafferty would leave the Executive's employment. Have you had notice that the Executive will make a statement, and do you think that the Executive should make a statement on the matter? The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): In fairness to the deputy minister, he said that there would be no statement to Parliament. Someone joining or leaving the employment of the Executive is not a major policy announcement of the kind that must be made to Parliament. In any case, on this day of all days, people have the chance to question the First Minister if they feel strongly about the matter.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5763323+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1985E207P501C713654", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27196, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27197, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 258.0, "QuestionHeading": "Rural General Practitioners", "QuestionHeadingID": 27198, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 259.0, "DisplayOrder": 259.0, "ID": 27198, "ParentID": 27197 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hamilton, Mr Duncan", "ID": 1985, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Hamilton: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 262.0, "ContributionID": 713654, "EditedText": "Is the minister aware of the real crisis facing many rural GP practices across Scotland, including the one at Dalmally near Oban? Will she concede that the decision to press ahead with the Arbuthnott report as it stands will mean a cut for Argyll and Clyde Health Board? If the minister had had the humility to read the report of the Health and Community Care Committee, that cut would not be implemented and the Dalmally practice's position would be buttressed. Does she regret not giving a more considered response to the report of the Health and Community Care Committee on the Arbuthnott report, and will she admit that her actions undermine the Executive's commitment to rural health care?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is the minister aware of the real crisis facing many rural GP practices across Scotland, including the one at Dalmally near Oban? Will she concede that the decision to press ahead with the Arbuthnott report as it stands will mean a cut for Argyll and Clyde Health Board? If the minister had had the humility to read the report of the Health and Community Care Committee, that cut would not be implemented and the Dalmally practice's position would be buttressed. Does she regret not giving a more considered response to the report of the Health and Community Care Committee on the Arbuthnott report, and will she admit that her actions undermine the Executive's commitment to rural health care?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5763323+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C713655", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27196, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27197, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 258.0, "QuestionHeading": "Rural General Practitioners", "QuestionHeadingID": 27198, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 259.0, "DisplayOrder": 259.0, "ID": 27198, "ParentID": 27197 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 264.0, "ContributionID": 713655, "EditedText": "Mr Hamilton does a great disservice to the Parliament and to the issues that he raises. His question serves to indicate what a mass of hyperbole he is becoming. Not for the first time, he uses the word crisis in the same sentence as a reference to the health service completely falsely and unnecessarily. I am very much aware of the situation in Dalmally to which he refers. I point out to the member that the matter is in fact a question for the Scottish Medical Practices Committee. If Mr Hamilton and other members care to look at the press release that I issued on the Arbuthnott report, they will see that I said very clearly, as I have said throughout, that I and the Executive will examine very carefully all 90 submissions that have been received in response to the consultation exercise including, obviously, the submission of the Health and Community Care Committee. We will reach conclusions based on a careful and considered response to the consultation. We are determined to put in place a fairer system for the allocation of health service resources that is linked to need. We are keen to do that at the earliest possible opportunity.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Hamilton does a great disservice to the Parliament and to the issues that he raises. His question serves to indicate what a mass of hyperbole he is becoming. Not for the first time, he uses the word crisis in the same sentence as a reference to the health service completely falsely and unnecessarily. I am very much aware of the situation in Dalmally to which he refers. I point out to the member that the matter is in fact a question for the Scottish Medical Practices Committee.

If Mr Hamilton and other members care to look at the press release that I issued on the Arbuthnott report, they will see that I said very clearly, as I have said throughout, that I and the Executive will examine very carefully all 90 submissions that have been received in response to the consultation exercise including, obviously, the submission of the Health and Community Care Committee. We will reach conclusions based on a careful and considered response to the consultation. We are determined to put in place a fairer system for the allocation of health service

resources that is linked to need. We are keen to do that at the earliest possible opportunity.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5763323+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2167E79P155C713661", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27196, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27197, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 258.0, "QuestionHeading": "Anti-drug Education Programme", "QuestionHeadingID": 27200, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 275.0, "DisplayOrder": 275.0, "ID": 27200, "ParentID": 27197 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Peacock, Peter", "ID": 2167, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Peter Peacock", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Children and Education (Peter Peacock): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 278.0, "ContributionID": 713661, "EditedText": "We are continuing to evaluate the impact of schools drugs education as part of the Scottish drug strategy. We will publish the results of recent research shortly.", "EditedTextHTML": "We are continuing to evaluate the impact of schools drugs education as part of the Scottish drug strategy. We will publish the results of recent research shortly.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5763323+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2154E194P299C713669", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27196, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27197, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 258.0, "QuestionHeading": "Student Finance", "QuestionHeadingID": 27201, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 284.0, "DisplayOrder": 284.0, "ID": 27201, "ParentID": 27197 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stephen, Nicol", "ID": 2154, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Nicol Stephen", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicol Stephen: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 295.0, "ContributionID": 713669, "EditedText": "No, it is not. I checked this morning the motion put before and approved by Parliament. The clear intention was that the report be submitted to the Executive on the basis that the Executive would get absolutely no forewarning of it. It will be received by the Executive on the same day that it will be laid before Parliament. That was the intention when Parliament set up the committee of inquiry, and that is what will happen. The date of publication, as should be the case with an independent inquiry, is entirely a matter for Mr Andrew Cubie and the other members of the committee of inquiry.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, it is not. I checked this morning the motion put before and approved by Parliament. The clear intention was that the report be submitted to the Executive on the basis that the Executive would get absolutely no forewarning of it. It will be received by the Executive on the same day that it will be laid before Parliament. That was the intention when Parliament set up the committee of inquiry, and that is what will happen.

The date of publication, as should be the case with an independent inquiry, is entirely a matter for Mr Andrew Cubie and the other members of the committee of inquiry.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5763323+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1888E265P358C713674", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27196, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27197, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 258.0, "QuestionHeading": "Roads (A75)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27203, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 304.0, "DisplayOrder": 304.0, "ID": 27203, "ParentID": 27197 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morgan, Alasdair", "ID": 1888, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Galloway and Upper Nithsdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morgan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alasdair Morgan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 307.0, "ContributionID": 713674, "EditedText": "I have to say that that is a very disappointing response. I have a letter here from one of Sarah Boyack's many predecessors.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have to say that that is a very disappointing response. I have a letter here from one of Sarah Boyack's many predecessors.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5763323+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1888E265P358C713676", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27196, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27197, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 258.0, "QuestionHeading": "Roads (A75)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27203, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 304.0, "DisplayOrder": 304.0, "ID": 27203, "ParentID": 27197 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morgan, Alasdair", "ID": 1888, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Galloway and Upper Nithsdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morgan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alasdair Morgan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 311.0, "ContributionID": 713676, "EditedText": "Is Sarah Boyack aware that one of her many predecessors, Malcolm Chisholm, wrote to me in November 1997 to say that a route action plan was being developed? How long does it take to develop a route action plan, and does she think that it is a fitting way to recognise the strategic importance of the A75 for Scotland, Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is Sarah Boyack aware that one of her many predecessors, Malcolm Chisholm, wrote to me in November 1997 to say that a route action plan was being developed?

How long does it take to develop a route action plan, and does she think that it is a fitting way to recognise the strategic importance of the A75 for Scotland, Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5763323+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C713683", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27196, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27197, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 258.0, "QuestionHeading": "Banking Facilities", "QuestionHeadingID": 27205, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 326.0, "DisplayOrder": 326.0, "ID": 27205, "ParentID": 27197 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "8. Patricia Ferguson (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 327.0, "ContributionID": 713683, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what steps it is taking to encourage Scotland's banks to provide banking facilities in local communities. (S1O-798) The Minister for Communities (Ms Wendy Alexander): We have encouraged the banks to provide basic, low-cost current accounts for all and to identify ways of improving access to these products through partnerships with credit unions, post offices and housing associations.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what steps it is taking to encourage Scotland's banks to provide banking facilities in local communities. (S1O-798) The Minister for Communities (Ms Wendy Alexander): We have encouraged the banks to provide basic, low-cost current accounts for all and to identify ways of improving access to these products through partnerships with credit unions, post offices and housing associations.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5763323+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C713684", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27196, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27197, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 258.0, "QuestionHeading": "Banking Facilities", "QuestionHeadingID": 27205, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 326.0, "DisplayOrder": 326.0, "ID": 27205, "ParentID": 27197 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Patricia Ferguson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 329.0, "ContributionID": 713684, "EditedText": "Does the minister agree that the lack of commercial banking facilities in many of our communities means that many of the services once provided by banks are now provided by credit unions, such as the Maryhill and Greater Milton credit unions in my constituency? Does she agree that the role of credit unions is particularly important in preventing debt and consequent reliance on loan sharks?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the minister agree that the lack of commercial banking facilities in many of our communities means that many of the services once provided by banks are now provided by credit unions, such as the Maryhill and Greater Milton credit unions in my constituency? Does she agree that the role of credit unions is particularly important in preventing debt and consequent reliance on loan sharks?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5763323+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C713685", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27196, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27197, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 258.0, "QuestionHeading": "Banking Facilities", "QuestionHeadingID": 27205, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 326.0, "DisplayOrder": 326.0, "ID": 27205, "ParentID": 27197 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 331.0, "ContributionID": 713685, "EditedText": "Credit unions have an important role to play, which is why we welcomed the recent report of the Treasury task force, chaired by Fred Goodwin, which considered how to improve the regulatory climate for credit unions. I am aware that, in Scotland, many local authorities and housing associations are helping to establish credit unions such as Queens Cross Housing Association, in the member's constituency, which provides facilities for credit unions.", "EditedTextHTML": "Credit unions have an important role to play, which is why we welcomed the recent report of the Treasury task force, chaired by Fred Goodwin, which considered how to improve the regulatory climate for credit unions.

I am aware that, in Scotland, many local authorities and housing associations are helping to establish credit unions such as Queens Cross Housing Association, in the member's constituency, which provides facilities for credit unions.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5763323+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C713691", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27196, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27197, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 258.0, "QuestionHeading": "Landfill", "QuestionHeadingID": 27207, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 340.0, "DisplayOrder": 340.0, "ID": 27207, "ParentID": 27197 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 345.0, "ContributionID": 713691, "EditedText": "There are no provisions in the council tax regulations to make such payments. That position is clear.", "EditedTextHTML": "There are no provisions in the council tax regulations to make such payments. That position is clear.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5763323+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1892E34P73C713695", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27196, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27197, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 258.0, "QuestionHeading": "Pig Industry", "QuestionHeadingID": 27208, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 347.0, "DisplayOrder": 347.0, "ID": 27208, "ParentID": 27197 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Fergusson, Alex", "ID": 1892, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Fergusson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Fergusson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 354.0, "ContributionID": 713695, "EditedText": "I am asking a question, Presiding Officer—and until the minister takes a proactive lead in approaching both Nick Brown and Franz Fischler to fight for state aid to ensure that Scotland retains the healthy pig industry, which is only weeks away from total collapse?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am asking a question, Presiding Officer—and until the minister takes a proactive lead in approaching both Nick Brown and Franz Fischler to fight for state aid to ensure that Scotland retains the healthy pig industry, which is only weeks away from total collapse?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5763323+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2122E6P19C713701", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27196, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27197, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 258.0, "QuestionHeading": "Teachers", "QuestionHeadingID": 27210, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 365.0, "DisplayOrder": 365.0, "ID": 27210, "ParentID": 27197 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay", "ID": 2122, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lyndsay McIntosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs McIntosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 368.0, "ContributionID": 713701, "EditedText": "I thank the minister for his response. I am sure that those in Cumbernauld will welcome his efforts. Does he believe that the recently announced consultation on the introduction of compulsory testing for primary and early secondary school pupils—which seems quite familiar to me and to others in the Conservative party—will impact on the morale of North Lanarkshire teachers, and that it will be more welcome now than when it was first proposed?", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the minister for his response. I am sure that those in Cumbernauld will welcome his efforts. Does he believe that the recently announced consultation on the introduction of compulsory testing for primary and early secondary school pupils—which seems quite familiar to me and to others in the Conservative party—will impact on the morale of North Lanarkshire teachers, and that it will be more welcome now than when it was first proposed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2167E79P155C713702", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27196, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27197, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 258.0, "QuestionHeading": "Teachers", "QuestionHeadingID": 27210, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 365.0, "DisplayOrder": 365.0, "ID": 27210, "ParentID": 27197 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Peacock, Peter", "ID": 2167, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Peter Peacock", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Peter Peacock: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 370.0, "ContributionID": 713702, "EditedText": "We are in the process of issuing a wide-ranging consultation paper that dwells on the benefits of our experience in the past few years, and seeks to strengthen the system in a variety of ways. We look forward to hearing people's input into that consultation.", "EditedTextHTML": "We are in the process of issuing a wide-ranging consultation paper that dwells on the benefits of our experience in the past few years, and seeks to strengthen the system in a variety of ways. We look forward to hearing people's input into that consultation.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2112E192P495C713703", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27196, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27197, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 258.0, "QuestionHeading": "Airport Rail Links", "QuestionHeadingID": 27211, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 372.0, "DisplayOrder": 372.0, "ID": 27211, "ParentID": 27197 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacAskill, Kenny", "ID": 2112, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenny MacAskill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "14. Mr Kenny MacAskill (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 373.0, "ContributionID": 713703, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has to improve rail links to Scottish airports. (S1O-809) The Minister for Transport and the Environment (Sarah Boyack): I understand that Railtrack is currently working with Strathclyde Passenger Transport Executive to assess options for providing a rail link to Glasgow airport. A rail link to Edinburgh airport has also been examined a number of times.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has to improve rail links to Scottish airports. (S1O-809) The Minister for Transport and the Environment (Sarah Boyack): I understand that Railtrack is currently working with Strathclyde Passenger Transport Executive to assess options for providing a rail link to Glasgow airport. A rail link to Edinburgh airport has also been examined a number of times.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2105E44P74C713706", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27196, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27197, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 258.0, "QuestionHeading": "Convention of Scottish Local Authorities", "QuestionHeadingID": 27212, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "DisplayOrder": 379.0, "ID": 27212, "ParentID": 27197 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harding, Mr Keith", "ID": 2105, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Harding", "SpeakerDisplayName": "15. Mr Keith Harding (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 380.0, "ContributionID": 713706, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive when the Deputy Minister for Local Government last met representatives of the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities and what issues were discussed. (S1O-787) The Deputy Minister for Local Government (Mr Frank McAveety): My most recent meeting with COSLA was on Monday 6 December when I, along with the Minister for Communities, met COSLA representatives to discuss housing issues.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive when the Deputy Minister for Local Government last met representatives of the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities and what issues were discussed. (S1O-787) The Deputy Minister for Local Government (Mr Frank McAveety): My most recent meeting with COSLA was on Monday 6 December when I, along with the Minister for Communities, met COSLA representatives to discuss housing issues.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2105E44P74C713707", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27196, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27197, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 258.0, "QuestionHeading": "Convention of Scottish Local Authorities", "QuestionHeadingID": 27212, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "DisplayOrder": 379.0, "ID": 27212, "ParentID": 27197 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harding, Mr Keith", "ID": 2105, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Harding", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Harding: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 382.0, "ContributionID": 713707, "EditedText": "Does the minister agree that yesterday's financial statement for local government will mean further job losses and service cuts, and that it does nothing to address the plight of pensioners, whose pension increases will be wiped out by council tax increases?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the minister agree that yesterday's financial statement for local government will mean further job losses and service cuts, and that it does nothing to address the plight of pensioners, whose pension increases will be wiped out by council tax increases?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1873E89P171C713710", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27196, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27197, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 258.0, "QuestionHeading": "Concessionary Fares", "QuestionHeadingID": 27213, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 386.0, "DisplayOrder": 386.0, "ID": 27213, "ParentID": 27197 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jackson, Dr Sylvia", "ID": 1873, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Stirling" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sylvia Jackson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Jackson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 389.0, "ContributionID": 713710, "EditedText": "Can the minister give some information about other community-based transport initiatives that will help older people?", "EditedTextHTML": "Can the minister give some information about other community-based transport initiatives that will help older people?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2029E47P167C713712", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27196, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27197, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 258.0, "QuestionHeading": "Polio Centre", "QuestionHeadingID": 27214, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 393.0, "DisplayOrder": 393.0, "ID": 27214, "ParentID": 27197 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Henry, Hugh", "ID": 2029, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Hugh Henry", "SpeakerDisplayName": "17. Hugh Henry (Paisley South) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 394.0, "ContributionID": 713712, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has to establish a centre of excellence to provide health care and therapies to people with polio. (S1O-825) The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): There are no plans to establish a national centre to provide health care specifically to people with polio. A range of support and advice is, however, available across the national health service in Scotland to those who have, or have had, polio.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has to establish a centre of excellence to provide health care and therapies to people with polio. (S1O-825) The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): There are no plans to establish a national centre to provide health care specifically to people with polio. A range of support and advice is, however, available across the national health service in Scotland to those who have, or have had, polio.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2029E47P167C713713", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27196, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27197, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 258.0, "QuestionHeading": "Polio Centre", "QuestionHeadingID": 27214, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 393.0, "DisplayOrder": 393.0, "ID": 27214, "ParentID": 27197 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Henry, Hugh", "ID": 2029, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Hugh Henry", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Hugh Henry: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 396.0, "ContributionID": 713713, "EditedText": "Is the minister aware of the problems faced by older people who suffered polio as children? Is she aware of the concern that support and expertise is not being provided throughout Scotland and of the demands for a concentration of specialists services?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is the minister aware of the problems faced by older people who suffered polio as children? Is she aware of the concern that support and expertise is not being provided throughout Scotland and of the demands for a concentration of specialists services?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C713716", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27196, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27197, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 258.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Trade and Industry(Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27215, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 400.0, "DisplayOrder": 400.0, "ID": 27215, "ParentID": 27197 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 403.0, "ContributionID": 713716, "EditedText": "I suggest that the First Minister should arrange a meeting with the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry and say to him that, over the past two years, an eighth of all quoted companies based in Scotland have disappeared, either through takeovers or mergers, which represents a major erosion of the economic base in many sectors of the Scottish economy. Will he press for powers over takeovers and mergers to be transferred to this Parliament so that we can protect the future of the Scottish economy?", "EditedTextHTML": "I suggest that the First Minister should arrange a meeting with the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry and say to him that, over the past two years, an eighth of all quoted companies based in Scotland have disappeared, either through takeovers or mergers, which represents a major erosion of the economic base in many sectors of the Scottish economy. Will he press for powers over takeovers and mergers to be transferred to this Parliament so that we can protect the future of the Scottish economy?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2223E203P342C713719", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27196, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27197, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 258.0, "QuestionHeading": "Island General Practitioners", "QuestionHeadingID": 27216, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 407.0, "DisplayOrder": 407.0, "ID": 27216, "ParentID": 27197 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scott, Tavish", "ID": 2223, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Shetland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tavish Scott", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tavish Scott: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 410.0, "ContributionID": 713719, "EditedText": "Will the minister accept that while distance learning has its place, island GPs depend for maintaining their professional role on a training regime that includes personal contact between GPs? Will she investigate the concerns of GPs in Shetland that the time being taken to come to a decision on this matter is over years, not months?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister accept that while distance learning has its place, island GPs depend for maintaining their professional role on a training regime that includes personal contact between GPs? Will she investigate the concerns of GPs in Shetland that the time being taken to come to a decision on this matter is over years, not months?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C713720", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27196, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27197, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 258.0, "QuestionHeading": "Island General Practitioners", "QuestionHeadingID": 27216, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 407.0, "DisplayOrder": 407.0, "ID": 27216, "ParentID": 27197 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 412.0, "ContributionID": 713720, "EditedText": "I want to ensure that we reach the right decision and that we take effective steps to meet the learning needs of GPs in remote rural and island areas. I will ensure that progress on it is maintained.", "EditedTextHTML": "I want to ensure that we reach the right decision and that we take effective steps to meet the learning needs of GPs in remote rural and island areas. I will ensure that progress on it is maintained.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1996E124P211C713723", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27196, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27197, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 258.0, "QuestionHeading": "Local Government Boundaries", "QuestionHeadingID": 27217, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 414.0, "DisplayOrder": 414.0, "ID": 27217, "ParentID": 27197 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAveety, Mr Frank", "ID": 1996, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Shettleston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Local Government", "SpeakerName": "Frank McAveety", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McAveety: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 419.0, "ContributionID": 713723, "EditedText": "I do not accept that portrayal. It is a bit rich from someone who was an architect of the most recent botched reorganisation of local government to lecture anyone about boundaries. We will address the matter when it is appropriate but we do not believe that it is appropriate to look at the boundaries of local authorities in this context.", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not accept that portrayal. It is a bit rich from someone who was an architect of the most recent botched reorganisation of local government to lecture anyone about boundaries. We will address the matter when it is appropriate but we do not believe that it is appropriate to look at the boundaries of local authorities in this context.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C713724", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27218, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 421.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27219, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 422.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27220, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 423.0, "DisplayOrder": 423.0, "ID": 27220, "ParentID": 27219 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "1. Mr Alex Salmond (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 424.0, "ContributionID": 713724, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive when the First Minister last met the Secretary of State for Scotland and what issues they discussed. (S1O789) The First Minister (Donald Dewar): Many matters. The meeting was on 1 December.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive when the First Minister last met the Secretary of State for Scotland and what issues they discussed. (S1O789) The First Minister (Donald Dewar): Many matters. The meeting was on 1 December.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C713726", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27218, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 421.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27219, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 422.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27220, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 423.0, "DisplayOrder": 423.0, "ID": 27220, "ParentID": 27219 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 428.0, "ContributionID": 713726, "EditedText": "I do not accept the terms that have been used; \"meltdown\" is an extraordinary overstatement. I can say very simply to Mr Salmond that when I take decisions, I accept responsibility for them. This has not been an easy matter. John Rafferty left the employment of the Scottish Executive today and it has been a very anxious time. Because it is difficult to establish the facts amid the welter of allegations, I thought it right to take time to make the right decision. That was only common courtesy. I am firmly committed to the principle that the Administration should be founded on integrity and trust, but also fairness. That is why I wanted to be very clear in my mind before reaching a decision with such obvious consequences for an individual whom I have known for many years. I greatly regret the fact that John Rafferty is leaving his employment with the Scottish Executive as my principal special adviser. He and I have known each other and worked together for some 20 years; he has been a supporter and a friend. I want to pay tribute to him for his many achievements, which stand to his credit—most recently in the post that he has just left, in which he made a contribution to the organisation of the Executive that will be widely acknowledged. As I said, this has not been an easy time. I took the decision after a great deal of thought, and I stand by it.", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not accept the terms that have been used; \"meltdown\" is an extraordinary overstatement. I can say very simply to Mr Salmond that when I take decisions, I accept responsibility for them. This has not been an easy matter. John Rafferty left the employment of the Scottish Executive today and it has been a very anxious time. Because it is difficult to establish the facts amid the welter of allegations, I thought it right to take time to make the right decision. That was only common courtesy.

I am firmly committed to the principle that the Administration should be founded on integrity and trust, but also fairness. That is why I wanted to be very clear in my mind before reaching a decision with such obvious consequences for an individual whom I have known for many years. I greatly regret the fact that John Rafferty is leaving his employment with the Scottish Executive as my principal special adviser. He and I have known each other and worked together for some 20 years; he has been a supporter and a friend. I want to pay tribute to him for his many achievements, which stand to his credit—most recently in the post that he has just left, in which he made a contribution to the organisation of the Executive that will be widely acknowledged.

As I said, this has not been an easy time. I took the decision after a great deal of thought, and I stand by it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C713728", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27218, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 421.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27219, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 422.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27220, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 423.0, "DisplayOrder": 423.0, "ID": 27220, "ParentID": 27219 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 432.0, "ContributionID": 713728, "EditedText": "I am certainly not aware of anyone who described the Health and Community Care Committee as numpties, although I have, of course, seen reports in the press. Seriously, if Alex Salmond is telling me that he has some method of alchemy that allows him to trace and put a name against every quotation that he sees in the press, I will be prepared to listen to him with rather more patience and care than I often do.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am certainly not aware of anyone who described the Health and Community Care Committee as numpties, although I have, of course, seen reports in the press. Seriously, if Alex Salmond is telling me that he has some method of alchemy that allows him to trace and put a name against every quotation that he sees in the press, I will be prepared to listen to him with rather more patience and care than I often do.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C713729", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27218, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 421.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27219, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 422.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27220, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 423.0, "DisplayOrder": 423.0, "ID": 27220, "ParentID": 27219 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 434.0, "ContributionID": 713729, "EditedText": "The First Minister exemplifies the political culture for which he is responsible. Government sources described the Health and Community Care Committee in the terms to which I have referred. At the third time of asking, will he tell us why John Rafferty was sacked, and will he accept his personal responsibility for the departure of his chief of staff and for the chaos and in-fighting at the heart of his Administration?", "EditedTextHTML": "The First Minister exemplifies the political culture for which he is responsible. Government sources described the Health and Community Care Committee in the terms to which I have referred. At the third time of asking, will he tell us why John Rafferty was sacked, and will he accept his personal responsibility for the departure of his chief of staff and for the chaos and in-fighting at the heart of his Administration?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C713730", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27218, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 421.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27219, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 422.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27220, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 423.0, "DisplayOrder": 423.0, "ID": 27220, "ParentID": 27219 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 436.0, "ContributionID": 713730, "EditedText": "I think that in the period ahead Alex Salmond will very disappointed; there will be neither chaos nor in-fighting in the Administration. I certainly take responsibility. As I said, I took the decision after anxious consideration. I am not prepared to go further on why I took it. This is a staff matter within the Administration, and it does no service to anyone to speculate about it in public—I do not believe that Mr Salmond or any of his colleagues would expect me to do so.", "EditedTextHTML": "I think that in the period ahead Alex Salmond will very disappointed; there will be neither chaos nor in-fighting in the Administration. I certainly take responsibility. As I said, I took the decision after anxious consideration. I am not prepared to go further on why I took it. This is a staff matter within the Administration, and it does no service to anyone to speculate about it in public—I do not believe that Mr Salmond or any of his colleagues would expect me to do so.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2068E171P304C713731", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27218, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 421.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27219, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 422.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27220, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 423.0, "DisplayOrder": 423.0, "ID": 27220, "ParentID": 27219 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stone, Jamie", "ID": 2068, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie Stone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 438.0, "ContributionID": 713731, "EditedText": "Whether John Rafferty jumped or whether he was pushed, does the First Minister share my concern at Mr Alex Salmond's very frequent absences from this chamber? Interruption. Would he care to surmise who Mr Salmond's successor might be? Interruption.", "EditedTextHTML": "Whether John Rafferty jumped or whether he was pushed, does the First Minister share my concern at Mr Alex Salmond's very frequent absences from this chamber? [Interruption.] Would he care to surmise who Mr Salmond's successor might be? [Interruption.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C713733", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27218, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 421.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27219, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 422.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27220, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 423.0, "DisplayOrder": 423.0, "ID": 27220, "ParentID": 27219 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 442.0, "ContributionID": 713733, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C713740", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27218, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 421.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27219, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 422.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27220, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 423.0, "DisplayOrder": 423.0, "ID": 27220, "ParentID": 27219 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 456.0, "ContributionID": 713740, "EditedText": "In light of the termination of Mr Rafferty's employment by the Executive, will the First Minister confirm that no compensation will be paid to him from the public purse in respect of the premature termination of his contract of employment? If compensation is to be paid from the public purse, will we be seeking reimbursement from the Labour party, which is responsible for this shambles in the first place?", "EditedTextHTML": "In light of the termination of Mr Rafferty's employment by the Executive, will the First Minister confirm that no compensation will be paid to him from the public purse in respect of the premature termination of his contract of employment? If compensation is to be paid from the public purse, will we be seeking reimbursement from the Labour party, which is responsible for this shambles in the first place?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C713747", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27218, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 421.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27219, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 422.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27220, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 423.0, "DisplayOrder": 423.0, "ID": 27220, "ParentID": 27219 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 470.0, "ContributionID": 713747, "EditedText": "If Mr Gallie thinks that I have 50 special advisers, there is something very wrong with his basic arithmetic. I suggest that some remedial teaching is required.", "EditedTextHTML": "If Mr Gallie thinks that I have 50 special advisers, there is something very wrong with his basic arithmetic. I suggest that some remedial teaching is required.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C713748", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27218, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 421.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27219, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 422.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27220, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 423.0, "DisplayOrder": 423.0, "ID": 27220, "ParentID": 27219 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan (Glasgow) (SSP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 472.0, "ContributionID": 713748, "EditedText": "Given the involvement of the Minister for Health and Community Care in the fiasco that has developed in the past week, will the First Minister give a commitment today that Mr Rafferty, as special adviser to the First Minister, will not be replaced and that the sum of money for that post will be given instead to the health minister to employ an extra five nurses in the health service in Scotland?", "EditedTextHTML": "Given the involvement of the Minister for Health and Community Care in the fiasco that has developed in the past week, will the First Minister give a commitment today that Mr Rafferty, as special adviser to the First Minister, will not be replaced and that the sum of money for that post will be given instead to the health minister to employ an extra five nurses in the health service in Scotland?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C713751", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27218, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 421.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27219, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 422.0, "QuestionHeading": "Public Services", "QuestionHeadingID": 27221, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 476.0, "DisplayOrder": 476.0, "ID": 27221, "ParentID": 27219 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Finance (Mr Jack McConnell): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 479.0, "ContributionID": 713751, "EditedText": "The Barnett formula delivers the same increases or decreases in spending per head on comparable programmes in Scotland as are planned in England.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Barnett formula delivers the same increases or decreases in spending per head on comparable programmes in Scotland as are planned in England.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C713752", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27218, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 421.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27219, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 422.0, "QuestionHeading": "Public Services", "QuestionHeadingID": 27221, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 476.0, "DisplayOrder": 476.0, "ID": 27221, "ParentID": 27219 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 481.0, "ContributionID": 713752, "EditedText": "Is the Minister for Finance aware that, according to Professor Brian Ashcroft of the University of Strathclyde, spending on public services in England will increase two and a half times more quickly during this Administration than it will in Scotland? Is he aware that, as was pointed out yesterday, Labour will spend less during this Administration than was spent under the Conservatives? Is he further aware that, despite the warm words and deceitful spin, Labour is not delivering for Scottish public services?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is the Minister for Finance aware that, according to Professor Brian Ashcroft

of the University of Strathclyde, spending on public services in England will increase two and a half times more quickly during this Administration than it will in Scotland? Is he aware that, as was pointed out yesterday, Labour will spend less during this Administration than was spent under the Conservatives? Is he further aware that, despite the warm words and deceitful spin, Labour is not delivering for Scottish public services?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C713753", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27218, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 421.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27219, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 422.0, "QuestionHeading": "Public Services", "QuestionHeadingID": 27221, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 476.0, "DisplayOrder": 476.0, "ID": 27221, "ParentID": 27219 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 483.0, "ContributionID": 713753, "EditedText": "I am aware that Mr Wilson's claims are complete and total rubbish. By the end of the comprehensive spending review, this coalition Administration and the Government at Westminster will be spending more money per head, not only in Scotland but throughout the United Kingdom, than the Tories did at the high point of their spending in 1994-95. As I said yesterday, the amount of money spent on local government in Scotland will be higher this year, next year and the year after that than it was under the Tories' plans for the same period.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am aware that Mr Wilson's claims are complete and total rubbish. By the end of the comprehensive spending review, this coalition Administration and the Government at Westminster will be spending more money per head, not only in Scotland but throughout the United Kingdom, than the Tories did at the high point of their spending in 1994-95. As I said yesterday, the amount of money spent on local government in Scotland will be higher this year, next year and the year after that than it was under the Tories' plans for the same period.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C713755", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27218, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 421.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27219, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 422.0, "QuestionHeading": "Public Services", "QuestionHeadingID": 27221, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 476.0, "DisplayOrder": 476.0, "ID": 27221, "ParentID": 27219 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 487.0, "ContributionID": 713755, "EditedText": "The problem with the SNP is that, as someone said last week, it wants to take Scotland out of Britain instead of taking poverty out of Scotland. The real divide in this country is between the rich and the poor, not between Scotland and England, and those constant comparisons do no good whatever for Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "The problem with the SNP is that, as someone said last week, it wants to take Scotland out of Britain instead of taking poverty out of Scotland. The real divide in this country is between the rich and the poor, not between Scotland and England, and those constant comparisons do no good whatever for Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1811E172P455C713756", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27218, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 421.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27219, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 422.0, "QuestionHeading": "Public Services", "QuestionHeadingID": 27221, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 476.0, "DisplayOrder": 476.0, "ID": 27221, "ParentID": 27219 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ullrich, Kay", "ID": 1811, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kay Ullrich", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Kay Ullrich (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 489.0, "ContributionID": 713756, "EditedText": "Will the minister confirm that health spending in Scotland in the next financial period will not match the level of spending in England and Wales, and that that means a loss of £400 in health terms for every man, woman and child in Scotland?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister confirm that health spending in Scotland in the next financial period will not match the level of spending in England and Wales, and that that means a loss of £400 in health terms for every man, woman and child in Scotland?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C713757", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27218, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 421.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27219, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 422.0, "QuestionHeading": "Public Services", "QuestionHeadingID": 27221, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 476.0, "DisplayOrder": 476.0, "ID": 27221, "ParentID": 27219 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 491.0, "ContributionID": 713757, "EditedText": "It is absolutely shocking that the health spokesperson for a major political party in Scotland does not know that health spending in this country is 20 per cent higher per head than it is in England. Applause. The coalition Administration is committed to ensuring that health spending will be at its highest level ever by the end of this Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is absolutely shocking that the health spokesperson for a major political party in Scotland does not know that health spending in this country is 20 per cent higher per head than it is in England. [Applause.] The coalition Administration is committed to ensuring that health spending will be at its highest level ever by the end of this Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1973E119P326C713760", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27218, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 421.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27219, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 422.0, "QuestionHeading": "Public Services", "QuestionHeadingID": 27221, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 476.0, "DisplayOrder": 476.0, "ID": 27221, "ParentID": 27219 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gorrie, Donald", "ID": 1973, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Donald Gorrie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Donald Gorrie (Central Scotland) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 497.0, "ContributionID": 713760, "EditedText": "Will the minister take issue with the Chancellor of the Exchequer to secure more spending on a UK basis to which the Barnett formula might then apply?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister take issue with the Chancellor of the Exchequer to secure more spending on a UK basis to which the Barnett formula might then apply?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2013E134P232C713769", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27222, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 511.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 511.0, "ID": 27222, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jackson, Gordon", "ID": 2013, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Govan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Gordon Jackson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Gordon Jackson (Glasgow Govan) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 516.0, "ContributionID": 713769, "EditedText": "Consideration of the bill in committee has been an interesting experience. The Justice and Home Affairs Committee has been good and I certainly agree with Roseanna Cunningham that we have worked very hard. The staff have given us every possible help. Taking evidence on the bill has been interesting, but sometimes extremely difficult. Some issues that were raised were—to my surprise—much more difficult than I thought they might be. The obvious example is the evidence that we heard from people who feared that the bill would lead somehow to euthanasia by the back door. My initial reaction was to dismiss that; I thought that I was dealing, by and large, with people who had a particular agenda—who saw, as it were, euthanasia under every bed. However, the more evidence I heard, the more I began to worry. That worry has not entirely gone away. I accept without reservation what Jim Wallace said this morning about the Executive having set its face absolutely against any form of euthanasia. In no shape or form is it the bill's intention that euthanasia should occur. However, I would add a rider to that: history is full of legislation that did something, or helped to do something, that it was absolutely never intended to do. The fact that the bill does not intend to assist euthanasia does not totally satisfy me. To some extent, the complaint of those who are concerned about euthanasia is not against the bill, but against the law in general. Some people think that the law in this country has gone the wrong way on that subject; they look at recent court decisions and disagree with them. Their argument is often with the existing law, not with any changes that the bill would make. I am delighted that the Executive has decided to remove certain words from the bill, in particular the words \"ventilation, nutrition and hydration by artificial means\"from the definition of medical treatment. I was never happy about the inclusion of those words. I understand that they were not meant to do any harm, but they introduced doubt, fear and worry. Many members of the committee were uncomfortable about those words, even if we could not always articulate why. They seemed to cause more problems than they were likely to solve, so we are pleased to be shot of them. The worry persists in other people's minds, if not in the Executive's—not in relation to withdrawing artificial hydration from someone who is in a persistent vegetative state, but in the much greyer area of psychogeriatrics. Before I deal with the change, it is worth saying what is in the minds of those who have that fear. They envisage that a doctor may feel that a particular treatment might be beneficial, but that he will be told by the guardian or the other appointed person, \"I don't want that done.\" In that stalemate, treatment that is needed might not be given. That was a genuine fear. Those who are not clear about why the Executive is making the change should realise that that fear came not just from groups such as the Catholic Church or the Scottish Council on Human Bioethics, but from responsible and reputable medical opinion. There were two ways of dealing with that fear. One was to put a legal duty of care on the guardian. Rightly, Jim Wallace rejected that, because it is not workable. It would raise more problems than it solved, so I am glad that we have not gone down that path. The second way was to move the goalposts—I commend the Executive for taking that step. The idea is that, if two bodies of medical opinion agree that treatment is required, the onus will be on the guardian to stop it—if that does not happen, the doctor will be free to go ahead and give the treatment. I hope that that alleviates the fears that were raised. Whether it will do so, I am not sure, but I await with interest responses from those who have given evidence about whether that arrangement satisfies them, because this is a difficult problem. I welcome the bill. It shows the value of the way in which our legislative process works. It shows the value of front-loading legislation with the taking of evidence, which allows matters to be focused on at an early stage and the Executive to respond. We will wait and see whether more needs to be done but, for the moment, I welcome the bill and especially the Executive's flexibility on these issues.", "EditedTextHTML": "Consideration of the bill in committee has been an interesting experience. The Justice and Home Affairs Committee has been good and I certainly agree with Roseanna Cunningham that we have worked very hard. The staff have given us every possible help.

Taking evidence on the bill has been interesting, but sometimes extremely difficult. Some issues that were raised were—to my surprise—much more difficult than I thought they might be. The obvious example is the evidence that we heard from people who feared that the bill would lead somehow to euthanasia by the back door. My initial reaction was to dismiss that; I thought that I was dealing, by and large, with people who had a particular agenda—who saw, as it were, euthanasia under every bed.

However, the more evidence I heard, the more I began to worry. That worry has not entirely gone away. I accept without reservation what Jim Wallace said this morning about the Executive having set its face absolutely against any form of euthanasia. In no shape or form is it the bill's intention that euthanasia should occur. However, I would add a rider to that: history is full of legislation that did something, or helped to do something, that it was absolutely never intended to do. The fact that the bill does not intend to assist euthanasia does not totally satisfy me.

To some extent, the complaint of those who are concerned about euthanasia is not against the bill, but against the law in general. Some people think that the law in this country has gone the wrong way on that subject; they look at recent court decisions and disagree with them. Their argument is often with the existing law, not with any changes that the bill would make.

I am delighted that the Executive has decided to remove certain words from the bill, in particular the words

\"ventilation, nutrition and hydration by artificial means\"

from the definition of medical treatment. I was never happy about the inclusion of those words. I understand that they were not meant to do any harm, but they introduced doubt, fear and worry. Many members of the committee were uncomfortable about those words, even if we could not always articulate why. They seemed to cause more problems than they were likely to solve, so we are pleased to be shot of them.

The worry persists in other people's minds, if not in the Executive's—not in relation to withdrawing artificial hydration from someone who is in a persistent vegetative state, but in the much greyer area of psychogeriatrics. Before I deal with the change, it is worth saying what is in the minds of those who have that fear. They envisage that a doctor may feel that a particular treatment might be beneficial, but that he will be told by the guardian or the other appointed person, \"I don't want that done.\" In that stalemate, treatment that is needed might not be given. That was a genuine fear. Those who are not clear about why the Executive is making the change should realise that that fear came not just from groups such as the Catholic Church or the Scottish Council on Human Bioethics, but from responsible and reputable medical opinion.

There were two ways of dealing with that fear. One was to put a legal duty of care on the guardian. Rightly, Jim Wallace rejected that, because it is not workable. It would raise more problems than it solved, so I am glad that we have not gone down that path. The second way was to move the goalposts—I commend the Executive for taking that step. The idea is that, if two bodies of medical opinion agree that treatment is required, the onus will be on the guardian to stop it—if that does not happen, the doctor will be free to go ahead and give the treatment. I hope that that alleviates the fears that were raised. Whether it will do so, I am not sure, but I await with interest responses from those who have given evidence about whether that arrangement satisfies them, because this is a difficult problem.

I welcome the bill. It shows the value of the way in which our legislative process works. It shows the value of front-loading legislation with the taking of evidence, which allows matters to be focused on at an early stage and the Executive to respond. We will wait and see whether more needs to be done but, for the moment, I welcome the bill and especially the Executive's flexibility on these issues.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C713801", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27224, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 596.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 596.0, "ID": 27224, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan (Falkirk West): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 600.0, "ContributionID": 713801, "EditedText": "On a point of order. Tommy Sheridan's amendment would simply redistribute the time given for opposition debates. Is it therefore in order for the Labour party to have a whipped vote against this amendment, especially when the Labour party's time for debate is not affected at all by the amendment?", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. Tommy Sheridan's amendment would simply redistribute the time given for opposition debates. Is it therefore in order for the Labour party to have a whipped vote against this amendment, especially when the Labour party's time for debate is not affected at all by the amendment?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C713771", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27222, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 511.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 511.0, "ID": 27222, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 521.0, "ContributionID": 713771, "EditedText": "I welcome the bill. Adults with incapacity need to be protected, and the bill will certainly make the financial side of an incapable adult's life easier to manage. The Minister for Justice announced some amendments this morning. I believe that the amendments on guardianship and the public guardian's office go some way to addressing some of my concerns, but those concerns should be raised anyway—I will scrutinise the amendments further. As far as I am aware, the Executive feels that section 1 offers protection, as it states that any intervention by a proxy decision maker must be of benefit to the patient. However, it does not give protection against a situation in which there is a refusal to act. There is a fear that the bill may make passive euthanasia possible. Although section 44 gives a doctor a general authority to treat—treatment includes nursing and administration of food and liquids by artificial means—it defines not only the use of a feeding tube but food and water themselves as \"medical treatment\". That could cause problems—should food and drink be regarded as basic care? I appreciate that the Minister for Justice mentioned some amendments on the definition of treatment and I look forward to further clarification on that point. The welfare attorney has authority to refuse the treatment authorised under section 44. The bill gives proxy decision makers considerable influence to refuse medical treatment. For example, a proxy or guardian can refuse to allow commencement of tube-feeding for a patient who is not dying but has difficulty in swallowing. That needs further scrutiny. The liability of the welfare attorney is a sensitive issue. Welfare attorneys must act in good faith and their behaviour must be reasonable. Giving power without responsibility to proxy decision makers may—I stress may—allow passive involuntary euthanasia and remove protection for the incapable adult from abuses of power. As the law stands, if medical staff starve an incapable patient to death, they are liable to prosecution for a criminal omission and may be sued for breach of a duty of care. They could also be struck off. Under the bill in its present form, the power to refuse treatment, food and fluids could be passed from people with duties of care to people with no such duties. I appreciate that the Minister for Justice addressed that this morning. If the incapable patient is starved to death as a result of a refusal or omission by a proxy, no one can be prosecuted or sued. That is because, in those circumstances, in order to prosecute a person under the criminal law or to sue them under the civil law, one must first prove that they had a duty to act. I welcome the amendments that the minister put forward this morning and I look forward to hearing the responses.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the bill. Adults with incapacity need to be protected, and the bill will certainly make the financial side of an incapable adult's life easier to manage.

The Minister for Justice announced some amendments this morning. I believe that the amendments on guardianship and the public guardian's office go some way to addressing some of my concerns, but those concerns should be raised anyway—I will scrutinise the amendments further.

As far as I am aware, the Executive feels that section 1 offers protection, as it states that any intervention by a proxy decision maker must be of benefit to the patient. However, it does not give protection against a situation in which there is a refusal to act. There is a fear that the bill may make passive euthanasia possible.

Although section 44 gives a doctor a general authority to treat—treatment includes nursing and administration of food and liquids by artificial means—it defines not only the use of a feeding tube but food and water themselves as \"medical treatment\". That could cause problems—should food and drink be regarded as basic care? I appreciate that the Minister for Justice mentioned some amendments on the definition of treatment and I look forward to further clarification on that point.

The welfare attorney has authority to refuse the treatment authorised under section 44. The bill gives proxy decision makers considerable influence to refuse medical treatment. For example, a proxy or guardian can refuse to allow commencement of tube-feeding for a patient who is not dying but has difficulty in swallowing. That needs further scrutiny.

The liability of the welfare attorney is a sensitive issue. Welfare attorneys must act in good faith and their behaviour must be reasonable. Giving power without responsibility to proxy decision makers may—I stress may—allow passive involuntary euthanasia and remove protection for the incapable adult from abuses of power.

As the law stands, if medical staff starve an incapable patient to death, they are liable to prosecution for a criminal omission and may be sued for breach of a duty of care. They could also be struck off. Under the bill in its present form, the power to refuse treatment, food and fluids could be passed from people with duties of care to people with no such duties. I appreciate that the Minister for Justice addressed that this morning.

If the incapable patient is starved to death as a result of a refusal or omission by a proxy, no one can be prosecuted or sued. That is because, in those circumstances, in order to prosecute a person under the criminal law or to sue them under the civil law, one must first prove that they had a duty to act.

I welcome the amendments that the minister put forward this morning and I look forward to hearing the responses.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713812", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27224, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 596.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 596.0, "ID": 27224, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 619.0, "ContributionID": 713812, "EditedText": "That the Parliament notes the terms of the First Report of the Procedures Committee entitled Draft Standing Orders of The Scottish Parliament (SP Paper 28); approves the draft standing orders set out in annex 4 of the Report and now makes the standing orders of the Parliament in terms of that draft, and agrees that those standing orders shall come into force on 17 December 1999.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament notes the terms of the First Report of the Procedures Committee entitled Draft Standing Orders of The Scottish Parliament (SP Paper 28); approves the draft standing orders set out in annex 4 of the Report and now makes the standing orders of the Parliament in terms of that draft, and agrees that those standing orders shall come into force on 17 December 1999.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713814", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27224, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 596.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 596.0, "ID": 27224, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 622.0, "ContributionID": 713814, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2207E94P262C713779", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27222, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 511.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 511.0, "ID": 27222, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Barrie, Scott", "ID": 2207, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dunfermline West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Scott Barrie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Scott Barrie (Dunfermline West) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 545.0, "ContributionID": 713779, "EditedText": "There can be no doubt that a bill such as the Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill is long overdue. The proposed legislation will provide a much needed and, unfortunately, long delayed overhaul of the current Scottish legal system as it affects adults who, for a variety of reasons, lack sufficient capacity to make decisions about their welfare, medical treatment or financial affairs; decisions which the vast majority of us take for granted. The difficulties that such people face affect not only themselves, but partners, other family members and carers. In my career in social work, I came across many instances in which incapacity caused havoc in a family, not just for the more obvious reasons of someone no longer being able to do things that they once did, and of the emotional impact that that caused, but on a more practical level. We have already heard about a couple's joint bank account not being able to be accessed by the partner who remains capable, even if the money is for the benefit of their incapacitated partner. Under current legislation, the only remedy available is to apply to court for the appointment of a curator bonis, and that is a costly, complicated procedure. The bill would allow for the capable partner in such cases to operate the joint account for the benefit of both partners, without resort to a complex, inflexible legal remedy. That benefit is to be welcomed. I also welcome today's announcement by the Minister for Justice, echoed by several other speakers in the debate, that the Executive intends to include partners of the same sex under the definition of nearest relative. That was highlighted in the Justice and Home Affairs Committee report, and takes into account the social realities of contemporary Scotland. It advances the definition contained in the Mental Health (Scotland) Act 1984. As has already been mentioned, the largest group of adults with incapacity who will benefit from the bill are those suffering some form of dementia, and their carers. With life expectancy increasing and the population aging, the current figure of 60,000 people with dementia is likely to increase over the next three decades. It should be noted that Alzheimer Scotland welcomes the bill, and when the Justice and Home Affairs Committee was taking its considerable amount of evidence, I was particularly struck by the paper that it presented and by its concerns about the legal status of research. According to Alzheimer Scotland, section 48 as drafted would render it illegal to carry out therapeutic research where it was for the benefit of others or for future sufferers, rather than for the adult concerned. Although such research would have to be carefully regulated, it is clear, if we are to advance our knowledge of the causes of dementia and offer hope for future cures, that such research is necessary. I do not believe that it is the intention of the bill to preclude proper clinical trials of drug treatment or other treatment in this or related areas. I therefore welcome this morning's speech by the Minister for Justice, in which he said that the Executive would seek to widen the scope of section 48 at stage 2, in line with European conventions. During the evidence sessions of the Justice and Home Affairs Committee, a number of references were made to the fact that the bill could result in back-door euthanasia because the wording of sections 41, 44 and 47 was not sufficiently specific. I believe such arguments to be something of a red herring. On many occasions, not least in the speech by the Minister for Justice this morning, the Executive has stated that it is totally opposed to living wills. In \"Making the Right Moves\", the Executive specifically rules out giving clear legal force to advance statements, as proposed by the Scottish Law Commission and the alliance for the promotion of the incapable adults bill. I do not believe that the bill, as currently written, would change that. Perhaps that is a pity. I would have preferred to have debated the issue as covered by the Law Commission's draft proposals. I have a great deal of sympathy for the concept of living wills, the legal and moral minefield notwithstanding, but I accept that to deal with them would have greatly held up the bill's progress, because of their controversial nature, and I accept that the issues that the bill addresses require immediate action. As I said, the measures in the bill are long overdue, and I appreciate why the Executive has omitted advance statements from it, but we should discuss that issue at some point in the future. I completely concur with the statement in the recommendation in the Justice and Home Affairs Committee report, that \"this is a good Bill.\"However, as stated in the Health and Community Care Committee memorandum, the bill contains \"a number of ill-thought-out provisions.\"The bill will require some amendment to clarify or strengthen what already exists; we have already heard from the Minister for Justice about some of the Executive's intentions, not least those on section 44. I believe the bill to be basically sound. It should be supported. It will enhance the lives of a number of people in our society, and the lives of those who care for them.", "EditedTextHTML": "There can be no doubt that a bill such as the Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill is long overdue. The proposed legislation will provide a much needed and, unfortunately, long delayed overhaul of the current Scottish legal system as it affects adults who, for a variety of reasons, lack sufficient capacity to make decisions about their welfare, medical treatment or financial affairs; decisions which the vast majority of us take for granted.

The difficulties that such people face affect not only themselves, but partners, other family members and carers. In my career in social work, I came across many instances in which incapacity caused havoc in a family, not just for the more obvious reasons of someone no longer being able to do things that they once did, and of the emotional impact that that caused, but on a more practical level. We have already heard about a couple's joint bank account not being able to be accessed by the partner who remains capable, even if the money is for the benefit of their incapacitated partner.

Under current legislation, the only remedy available is to apply to court for the appointment of a curator bonis, and that is a costly, complicated procedure. The bill would allow for the capable partner in such cases to operate the joint account for the benefit of both partners, without resort to a complex, inflexible legal remedy. That benefit is to be welcomed.

I also welcome today's announcement by the Minister for Justice, echoed by several other speakers in the debate, that the Executive intends to include partners of the same sex under the definition of nearest relative. That was highlighted in the Justice and Home Affairs Committee report, and takes into account the social realities of contemporary Scotland. It advances the definition contained in the Mental Health (Scotland) Act 1984.

As has already been mentioned, the largest group of adults with incapacity who will benefit from the bill are those suffering some form of dementia, and their carers. With life expectancy increasing and the population aging, the current figure of 60,000 people with dementia is likely to increase over the next three decades.

It should be noted that Alzheimer Scotland welcomes the bill, and when the Justice and Home Affairs Committee was taking its considerable amount of evidence, I was particularly struck by the paper that it presented and by its concerns about the legal status of research. According to Alzheimer Scotland, section 48 as drafted would render it illegal to carry out therapeutic research where it was for the benefit of others or for future sufferers, rather than for the adult concerned.

Although such research would have to be carefully regulated, it is clear, if we are to advance our knowledge of the causes of dementia and offer hope for future cures, that such research is necessary. I do not believe that it is the intention of the bill to preclude proper clinical trials of drug treatment or other treatment in this or related areas. I therefore welcome this morning's speech by the Minister for Justice, in which he said that the Executive would seek to widen the scope of section 48 at stage 2, in line with European conventions.

During the evidence sessions of the Justice and Home Affairs Committee, a number of references were made to the fact that the bill could result in back-door euthanasia because the wording of sections 41, 44 and 47 was not sufficiently specific. I believe such arguments to be something of a red herring. On many occasions, not least in the speech by the Minister for Justice this morning, the Executive has stated that it is totally opposed to living wills. In \"Making the Right Moves\", the Executive specifically rules out giving clear legal force to advance statements, as proposed by the Scottish Law Commission and the alliance for the promotion of the incapable adults bill. I do not believe that the bill, as currently written, would change that.

Perhaps that is a pity. I would have preferred to have debated the issue as covered by the Law Commission's draft proposals. I have a great deal of sympathy for the concept of living wills, the legal and moral minefield notwithstanding, but I accept that to deal with them would have greatly held up the bill's progress, because of their controversial nature, and I accept that the issues that the bill addresses require immediate action.

As I said, the measures in the bill are long overdue, and I appreciate why the Executive has omitted advance statements from it, but we should discuss that issue at some point in the future.

I completely concur with the statement in the recommendation in the Justice and Home Affairs Committee report, that

\"this is a good Bill.\"

However, as stated in the Health and Community Care Committee memorandum, the bill contains

\"a number of ill-thought-out provisions.\"

The bill will require some amendment to clarify or strengthen what already exists; we have already heard from the Minister for Justice about some of the Executive's intentions, not least those on section 44.

I believe the bill to be basically sound. It should be supported. It will enhance the lives of a number of people in our society, and the lives of those who care for them.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1840E82P158C713781", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27222, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 511.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 511.0, "ID": 27222, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macmillan, Maureen", "ID": 1840, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Maureen Macmillan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Maureen Macmillan (Highlands and Islands) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 551.0, "ContributionID": 713781, "EditedText": "I particularly appreciated Jamie Stone's speech. The arguments for reform have been well rehearsed, and I do not wish to go through them again. Suffice it to say that the bill and the reform of the law are important, to enable control of the affairs of persons who are unable to take some, or any, decisions for themselves. The bill allows decisions to be more tailored to their particular needs and made more user friendly. It is with a great sense of both humility and pride that we are discussing and will eventually decide on the issue—humility, because the bill involves vulnerable people, their carers and their families who have to make difficult decisions, sometimes about life and death, and pride because the Scottish Parliament, which represents the diversity of opinion of the Scottish people will, finally, decide on the bill. I have been involved in the issue for some considerable time as a member of the Justice and Home Affairs Committee. The evidence that we received was, in all cases, presented in a manner that brought dignity to the people whom we are trying to help. I want to take this opportunity to pay tribute to all those who contributed and to the convener, members of the committee and the clerks. One could address many issues when speaking about the bill. However, like many other members, I will concentrate on medical treatment. Members are aware that the committee report notes that that issue raises \"difficult and often emotive issues, on which it is unlikely that consensus can ever be achieved.\" However, I hope that, with good will and sensitivity, we can achieve consensus. Obviously, one hopes that medical decisions will be made through discussion between doctors and proxies, with the best interest of the patient in mind. As the committee report highlights, the role of proxy decision makers is of some concern. I was concerned that non-intervention was not specifically mentioned as having to be for the patient's benefit and that, while the bill gave doctors discretion over medical treatment, it left proxy decision makers with the right to refuse medical treatment. In short, the final decision of whether to refuse medical treatment seemed to lie with the proxy decision maker. That led some individuals and groups to fear that that role could be abused either by the more unscrupulous who had a financial interest or by those who were tired of the responsibility of an aged relative. The committee report notes that, for some witnesses, the rights of the proxy decision makers were not adequately balanced by responsibilities. Those witnesses did not feel that the general principles of the bill, as proposed, gave adequate protection to vulnerable people—particularly regarding the administration of \"ventilation, nutrition and hydration by artificial means\".I welcome the proposed amendment, which will remove those words. It is important that people understand that there is no possibility of the bill introducing euthanasia by the back door, as that is certainly not the Executive's intention. I share the concern expressed by Roseanna Cunningham and Tricia Marwick that the British Medical Association's evidence to the committee seemed to show that euthanasia is not unknown. That is what worries organisations such as the Churches, and it will have to be addressed. The idea of introducing a statutory duty of care was put forward by the BMA and the Scottish Council on Human Bioethics, but it would be difficult to place on individual proxies, as Professor McLean said in her evidence. I realise that there are concerns about disempowering the proxies, and although I take on board what Malcolm Chisholm said, I am still inclined towards placing the final decisions on treatment in the hands of doctors—particularly when lack of treatment, or the withdrawal of treatment, would result in the patient's death. However, as Malcolm says, that might not be necessary any longer. Doctors already have a statutory duty of care. If there was disagreement or misconduct, the families of the incapable adult could seek recourse through the courts. That would strengthen this aspect of the legislation. I welcome the Minister for Justice's proposed amendment that will allow for a second opinion before the proxy's wishes can be countermanded. This is an important issue that we must get right. It is essential that there should be no grey areas, no ambiguities. This Parliament has the privilege—and it is a privilege—of making an important contribution to people's lives. The area that I have highlighted, and the solutions that I suggest and which have been suggested by the Minister for Justice will, I hope, bring clarity to the sensitive issue of medical treatment.", "EditedTextHTML": "I particularly appreciated Jamie Stone's speech.

The arguments for reform have been well rehearsed, and I do not wish to go through them again. Suffice it to say that the bill and the reform of the law are important, to enable control of the affairs of persons who are unable to take some, or any, decisions for themselves. The bill allows decisions to be more tailored to their particular needs and made more user friendly.

It is with a great sense of both humility and pride that we are discussing and will eventually decide on the issue—humility, because the bill involves vulnerable people, their carers and their families who have to make difficult decisions, sometimes about life and death, and pride because the Scottish Parliament, which represents the diversity of opinion of the Scottish people will, finally, decide on the bill.

I have been involved in the issue for some considerable time as a member of the Justice and Home Affairs Committee. The evidence that we received was, in all cases, presented in a manner that brought dignity to the people whom we are trying to help. I want to take this opportunity to pay tribute to all those who contributed and to the convener, members of the committee and the clerks.

One could address many issues when speaking about the bill. However, like many other members, I will concentrate on medical treatment. Members are aware that the committee report notes that that issue raises

\"difficult and often emotive issues, on which it is unlikely that consensus can ever be achieved.\"

However, I hope that, with good will and sensitivity, we can achieve consensus.

Obviously, one hopes that medical decisions will be made through discussion between doctors and proxies, with the best interest of the patient in mind. As the committee report highlights, the role of proxy decision makers is of some concern. I was concerned that non-intervention was not specifically mentioned as having to be for the patient's benefit and that, while the bill gave doctors discretion over medical treatment, it left proxy decision makers with the right to refuse medical treatment. In short, the final decision of whether to refuse medical treatment seemed to lie with the proxy decision maker. That led some individuals and groups to fear that that role could be abused either by the more unscrupulous who had a financial interest or by those who were tired of the responsibility of an aged relative.

The committee report notes that, for some witnesses, the rights of the proxy decision makers were not adequately balanced by responsibilities. Those witnesses did not feel that the general principles of the bill, as proposed, gave adequate protection to vulnerable people—particularly regarding the administration of

\"ventilation, nutrition and hydration by artificial means\".

I welcome the proposed amendment, which will remove those words.

It is important that people understand that there is no possibility of the bill introducing euthanasia by the back door, as that is certainly not the Executive's intention. I share the concern expressed by Roseanna Cunningham and Tricia Marwick that the British Medical Association's evidence to the committee seemed to show that euthanasia is not unknown. That is what worries organisations such as the Churches, and it will have to be addressed.

The idea of introducing a statutory duty of care was put forward by the BMA and the Scottish

Council on Human Bioethics, but it would be difficult to place on individual proxies, as Professor McLean said in her evidence. I realise that there are concerns about disempowering the proxies, and although I take on board what Malcolm Chisholm said, I am still inclined towards placing the final decisions on treatment in the hands of doctors—particularly when lack of treatment, or the withdrawal of treatment, would result in the patient's death. However, as Malcolm says, that might not be necessary any longer.

Doctors already have a statutory duty of care. If there was disagreement or misconduct, the families of the incapable adult could seek recourse through the courts. That would strengthen this aspect of the legislation. I welcome the Minister for Justice's proposed amendment that will allow for a second opinion before the proxy's wishes can be countermanded.

This is an important issue that we must get right. It is essential that there should be no grey areas, no ambiguities. This Parliament has the privilege—and it is a privilege—of making an important contribution to people's lives. The area that I have highlighted, and the solutions that I suggest and which have been suggested by the Minister for Justice will, I hope, bring clarity to the sensitive issue of medical treatment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713802", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27224, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 596.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 596.0, "ID": 27224, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 602.0, "ContributionID": 713802, "EditedText": "Order. As Mr Canavan may know, the Presiding Officer never knows anything about whipping or otherwise; it is not a matter over which I have any influence. The question is, that Mr Sheridan's amendment be agreed to. Are we agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "Order. As Mr Canavan may know, the Presiding Officer never knows anything about whipping or otherwise; it is not a matter over which I have any influence.

The question is, that Mr Sheridan's amendment be agreed to. Are we agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1970E66P288C713783", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27222, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 511.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 511.0, "ID": 27222, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNulty, Des", "ID": 1970, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Clydebank and Milngavie" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Des McNulty", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Des McNulty (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 557.0, "ContributionID": 713783, "EditedText": "Like others, I want to congratulate the relevant committees on the work that has been done in scrutinising the bill. I welcome the fact that the bill has been introduced in such a short time— we are all conscious of the difficulty in bringing forward detailed bills such as this at Westminster. The Parliament was created to be able to deal relatively quickly with matters that are of immediate interest to people in Scotland, and to deal with those matters in a way that is appropriate to the needs of the people. It is worth recording the fact that the committees have done such a thorough job. I shall highlight three areas of concern—areas that I would like to be addressed more effectively during the remaining stages of the bill. First, I am concerned that controversial treatments for mental disorders, such as electroconvulsive therapy and neurosurgery, might—as I understand the terms of the bill—be given in certain circumstances to adults who are incapable of consenting to or refusing such treatments. On Fiona Hyslop's point, I agree that human rights apply to everybody in all circumstances. We must be extraordinarily careful in ensuring that the principle of consent applies where humanly possible. I am not against necessary treatment being given where circumstances demand it, but it is important to maintain the principle that informed consent should be sought whenever possible, before treatment is given. Secondly, I am concerned that the balance of control has shifted a bit too far in the direction of carers. I am concerned that the terms of the proposed legislation place no duty of care on welfare attorneys. There should be a quasi- contractual legal basis for the rights and responsibilities that apply to both the incapable adult and the carer, and there shouId be greater clarity in that process. It is difficult to produce legislation that applies to all circumstances, but I do not understand why it is not possible to establish the duty of care in the legislation or to apply that to welfare attorneys. My final point is that the legislation is meant to apply to a relatively confined group of people in particular circumstances. In parallel with that, an increasing number of people suffer from Alzheimer's disease, dementia and so on. There is some concern that, when the legislation is enacted, it might come to apply to people to whom it was not intended that it should apply. We must ensure that the application of legislation such as this cannot be extended to apply where it was not intended. More research must be done and we must take more expert advice on how to define what dementia is, and who the sufferers are. We must establish clear boundaries in relation to the bill—we must ensure that people's rights are protected and maintained wherever that is feasible and whatever people's circumstances. The Parliament must do everything that it can to ensure that protection of human rights is applied to everybody. That is an important principle for legislation from the Scottish Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "Like others, I want to congratulate the relevant committees on the work that has been done in scrutinising the bill. I welcome the fact that the bill has been introduced in such a short time— we are all conscious of the difficulty in bringing forward detailed bills such as this at Westminster. The Parliament was created to be able to deal relatively quickly with matters that are of immediate interest to people in Scotland, and to deal with those matters in a way that is appropriate to the needs of the people. It is worth recording the fact that the committees have done such a thorough job.

I shall highlight three areas of concern—areas that I would like to be addressed more effectively during the remaining stages of the bill. First, I am concerned that controversial treatments for mental disorders, such as electroconvulsive therapy and neurosurgery, might—as I understand the terms of the bill—be given in certain circumstances to adults who are incapable of consenting to or refusing such treatments.

On Fiona Hyslop's point, I agree that human rights apply to everybody in all circumstances. We must be extraordinarily careful in ensuring that the principle of consent applies where humanly possible. I am not against necessary treatment being given where circumstances demand it, but it is important to maintain the principle that informed consent should be sought whenever possible, before treatment is given.

Secondly, I am concerned that the balance of control has shifted a bit too far in the direction of carers. I am concerned that the terms of the proposed legislation place no duty of care on welfare attorneys. There should be a quasi- contractual legal basis for the rights and responsibilities that apply to both the incapable adult and the carer, and there shouId be greater clarity in that process. It is difficult to produce legislation that applies to all circumstances, but I do not understand why it is not possible to establish the duty of care in the legislation or to apply that to welfare attorneys.

My final point is that the legislation is meant to apply to a relatively confined group of people in particular circumstances. In parallel with that, an increasing number of people suffer from Alzheimer's disease, dementia and so on. There is some concern that, when the legislation is enacted, it might come to apply to people to whom it was not intended that it should apply.

We must ensure that the application of legislation such as this cannot be extended to apply where it was not intended. More research must be done and we must take more expert advice on how to define what dementia is, and who the sufferers are. We must establish clear boundaries in relation to the bill—we must ensure that people's rights are protected and maintained wherever that is feasible and whatever people's circumstances. The Parliament must do everything that it can to ensure that protection of human rights is applied to everybody. That is an important principle for legislation from the Scottish Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713799", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill: Financial Resolution ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27223, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 583.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 583.0, "ID": 27223, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 594.0, "ContributionID": 713799, "EditedText": "I was responsible for changing the clock in the hope that you would not be misled and believe that you had to count down too fast. I think that we have filled in time satisfactorily. I can fill in the remaining seconds by making an announcement that I was going to make tomorrow. The clerk of the Parliament and I, together with the Presiding Officer and clerk of the Welsh Assembly, will be travelling on 21 December to Belfast at the invitation of the Speaker of the Northern Ireland Assembly. I am sure that all members want us to convey our good wishes to our colleagues in Northern Ireland on the resumption of their Assembly. Applause.", "EditedTextHTML": "I was responsible for changing the clock in the hope that you would not be misled and believe that you had to count down too fast.

I think that we have filled in time satisfactorily. I can fill in the remaining seconds by making an announcement that I was going to make tomorrow. The clerk of the Parliament and I, together with the Presiding Officer and clerk of the Welsh Assembly, will be travelling on 21 December to Belfast at the invitation of the Speaker of the Northern Ireland Assembly. I am sure that all members want us to convey our good wishes to our colleagues in Northern Ireland on the resumption of their Assembly. [Applause.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1863E284P532C713786", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27222, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 511.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 511.0, "ID": 27222, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Cunningham, Roseanna", "ID": 1863, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Perth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Roseanna Cunningham", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Roseanna Cunningham (Perth) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 565.0, "ContributionID": 713786, "EditedText": "I do not know whether this will cheer up Mr Gallie and the other members of the Justice and Home Affairs Committee who are still in the chamber, but I should advise them that I am in discussions about the possibility of the committee having a regular twice-weekly slot between January and Easter.", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not know whether this will cheer up Mr Gallie and the other members of the Justice and Home Affairs Committee who are still in the chamber, but I should advise them that I am in discussions about the possibility of the committee having a regular twice-weekly slot between January and Easter.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C713793", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27222, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 511.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 511.0, "ID": 27222, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 581.0, "ContributionID": 713793, "EditedText": "It is important to clarify a couple of points in relation to that. First, as all members have agreed in this debate, individual circumstances vary dramatically. What is best for the individual is central. In various situations there are teams of people involved. We have tried to get the right balance between the different individuals involved but have always tried to keep the adult with incapacity at the centre of that consideration. The amendment in question relates to decisions that are taken about specific treatment administered to the individual. A view emerged, during discussion on this issue, that the introduction of a second medical opinion in such circumstances was an important safeguard, should a proxy not consent to treatment for the individual. It was felt that the balance should be altered further by the introduction of a check into the system for a doctor to give a second medical opinion. I have listened to the speeches on that issue. It is clear that there are different views in Parliament on that point. We are trying to get the balance right. I hope that we can work together to do that. The issue of euthanasia has come up repeatedly in the debate. I feel the need to restate the Executive's intent. We do not intend in any way to change the existing law on euthanasia. Gordon Jackson made an important point earlier in the discussion, which applies to some of the other areas that we have touched upon. It is important that we focus on the provisions of this bill and what it will do. Of course it has raised discussions on other matters, on which people have strong views, and no doubt discussions will continue. However, many of those matters are outwith the scope of this bill. As far as this bill is concerned, it does not alter the existing position on euthanasia. Euthanasia will remain a crime in Scotland. Similarly, it does not alter the position in relation to living wills. It does not alter the existing provision in relation to emergency treatment. I give the assurance to Kay Ullrich, who raised this point, that a patient who requires emergency treatment will get it. It is certainly not our intention to change the existing legal provision as far as the withdrawal of treatment is concerned. I hope that the amendment that Jim Wallace mentioned earlier helped to make clear that the principle of this bill is that any treatment must be done for the benefit of the adult. The wording, if I can repeat it, is that \"any procedure or treatment designed to safeguard or promote physical or mental health\" is what will be provided within the context of the bill. I hope that that makes our intent clear. The issue of duty of care was raised in relation to medical professionals and to attorneys and guardians. Euan Robson made reference to points that Professor Sheila McLean made before the Justice and Home Affairs Committee. Persuasive arguments have been made throughout the consideration of the bill that point out why we do not want to place a duty of care on attorneys or guardians. We appreciate the intent but we believe that there would be practical difficulties relating to enforcement. Doctors and nurses have a duty of care to patients when making clinical decisions about a patient's treatment and care. To pick up on a point that Duncan Hamilton raised, it is inconceivable that basic nursing care would be withheld from a patient whatever their condition. Many other points of detail were raised in the debate. I give an assurance, on behalf of the Executive, that we will closely consider them and points that are raised during stage 2 consideration of the bill. I join everyone who has spoken in this debate in saying that I hope that we can take this bill through to completion and make sure that this Parliament delivers real improvements and better legal protection for some of the most vulnerable people in our society and those who care for them. I am proud to have had the opportunity to speak for the Executive on the matter today.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is important to clarify a couple of points in relation to that. First, as all members have agreed in this debate, individual circumstances vary dramatically. What is best for the individual is central. In various situations there are teams of people involved. We have tried to get the right balance between the different individuals involved but have always tried to keep the adult with incapacity at the centre of that consideration.

The amendment in question relates to decisions that are taken about specific treatment administered to the individual. A view emerged,

during discussion on this issue, that the introduction of a second medical opinion in such circumstances was an important safeguard, should a proxy not consent to treatment for the individual. It was felt that the balance should be altered further by the introduction of a check into the system for a doctor to give a second medical opinion. I have listened to the speeches on that issue. It is clear that there are different views in Parliament on that point. We are trying to get the balance right. I hope that we can work together to do that.

The issue of euthanasia has come up repeatedly in the debate. I feel the need to restate the Executive's intent. We do not intend in any way to change the existing law on euthanasia. Gordon Jackson made an important point earlier in the discussion, which applies to some of the other areas that we have touched upon. It is important that we focus on the provisions of this bill and what it will do. Of course it has raised discussions on other matters, on which people have strong views, and no doubt discussions will continue. However, many of those matters are outwith the scope of this bill.

As far as this bill is concerned, it does not alter the existing position on euthanasia. Euthanasia will remain a crime in Scotland. Similarly, it does not alter the position in relation to living wills. It does not alter the existing provision in relation to emergency treatment. I give the assurance to Kay Ullrich, who raised this point, that a patient who requires emergency treatment will get it.

It is certainly not our intention to change the existing legal provision as far as the withdrawal of treatment is concerned. I hope that the amendment that Jim Wallace mentioned earlier helped to make clear that the principle of this bill is that any treatment must be done for the benefit of the adult. The wording, if I can repeat it, is that \"any procedure or treatment designed to safeguard or promote physical or mental health\" is what will be provided within the context of the bill. I hope that that makes our intent clear.

The issue of duty of care was raised in relation to medical professionals and to attorneys and guardians. Euan Robson made reference to points that Professor Sheila McLean made before the Justice and Home Affairs Committee. Persuasive arguments have been made throughout the consideration of the bill that point out why we do not want to place a duty of care on attorneys or guardians. We appreciate the intent but we believe that there would be practical difficulties relating to enforcement. Doctors and nurses have a duty of care to patients when making clinical decisions about a patient's treatment and care. To pick up on a point that Duncan Hamilton raised, it is inconceivable that basic nursing care would be withheld from a patient whatever their condition.

Many other points of detail were raised in the debate. I give an assurance, on behalf of the Executive, that we will closely consider them and points that are raised during stage 2 consideration of the bill.

I join everyone who has spoken in this debate in saying that I hope that we can take this bill through to completion and make sure that this Parliament delivers real improvements and better legal protection for some of the most vulnerable people in our society and those who care for them.

I am proud to have had the opportunity to speak for the Executive on the matter today.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C713795", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill: Financial Resolution ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27223, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 583.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 583.0, "ID": 27223, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Finance (Mr Jack McConnell): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 586.0, "ContributionID": 713795, "EditedText": "I move the motion formally.", "EditedTextHTML": "I move the motion formally.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C713797", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill: Financial Resolution ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27223, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 583.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 583.0, "ID": 27223, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 590.0, "ContributionID": 713797, "EditedText": "I rise to move the financial resolution on the Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill, which, more accurately, is called the Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill financial resolution. The resolution, as members will realise, is very complete and I imagine that it requires no discussion by this Parliament. It bears no relation whatsoever to council tax compensation for landfill sites in Glasgow. Laughter. Furthermore, it has no comparison with the budget in England. I move,That the Parliament, for the purposes of any Act of the Scottish Parliament resulting from the Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill, agrees to— (a) any increase attributable to that Act in the sums payable out of the Scottish Consolidated Fund by or under any other Act; (b) charges by the Public Guardian in connection with his functions under the Act. Ms Margo MacDonald (Lothians) (SNP): I apologise for missing most of the debate. Could we start at the beginning again?", "EditedTextHTML": "I rise to move the financial resolution on the Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill, which, more accurately, is called the Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill financial resolution.

The resolution, as members will realise, is very complete and I imagine that it requires no discussion by this Parliament. It bears no relation whatsoever to council tax compensation for landfill sites in Glasgow. [Laughter.] Furthermore, it has no comparison with the budget in England.

I move,

That the Parliament, for the purposes of any Act of the Scottish Parliament resulting from the Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill, agrees to— (a) any increase attributable to that Act in the sums payable out of the Scottish Consolidated Fund by or under any other Act; (b) charges by the Public Guardian in connection with his functions under the Act. Ms Margo MacDonald (Lothians) (SNP): I apologise for missing most of the debate. Could we start at the beginning again?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713806", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27224, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 596.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 596.0, "ID": 27224, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 609.0, "ContributionID": 713806, "EditedText": "The result of the division is: For 28, Against 13, Abstentions 4. Is that correct?", "EditedTextHTML": "The result of the division is: For 28, Against 13, Abstentions 4. Is that correct?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713809", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27224, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 596.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 596.0, "ID": 27224, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 615.0, "ContributionID": 713809, "EditedText": "Amendment disagreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment disagreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713815", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27224, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 596.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 596.0, "ID": 27224, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 623.0, "ContributionID": 713815, "EditedText": "That the Parliament agrees to the general principles of the Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament agrees to the general principles of the Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713816", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27224, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 596.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 596.0, "ID": 27224, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 624.0, "ContributionID": 713816, "EditedText": "The next two questions I put to the chamber in error earlier in the day and I must correct that now. The fourth question is, that motion S1M-365, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, on the amnesic shellfish poisoning order, be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "The next two questions I put to the chamber in error earlier in the day and I must correct that now.

The fourth question is, that motion S1M-365, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, on the amnesic shellfish poisoning order, be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713817", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27224, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 596.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 596.0, "ID": 27224, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 626.0, "ContributionID": 713817, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713819", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27224, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 596.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 596.0, "ID": 27224, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 628.0, "ContributionID": 713819, "EditedText": "The fifth question is, that motion S1M-369, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, on the Scotland Act 1998 (Transfer of Functions to the Scottish Ministers etc) (No 2) Order 1999, be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "The fifth question is, that motion S1M-369, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, on the Scotland Act 1998 (Transfer of Functions to the Scottish Ministers etc) (No 2) Order 1999, be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713820", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27224, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 596.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 596.0, "ID": 27224, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 630.0, "ContributionID": 713820, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713821", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27224, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 596.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 596.0, "ID": 27224, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 631.0, "ContributionID": 713821, "EditedText": "That the Parliament agrees that The Scotland Act 1998 (Transfer of Functions to the Scottish Ministers etc.) (No.2) Order 1999 be approved.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament agrees that The Scotland Act 1998 (Transfer of Functions to the Scottish Ministers etc.) (No.2) Order 1999 be approved.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713822", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27224, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 596.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 596.0, "ID": 27224, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 632.0, "ContributionID": 713822, "EditedText": "The sixth question is, that motion S1M-254, in the name of Mr Jack McConnell, on the financial resolution in relation to the Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill, be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "The sixth question is, that motion S1M-254, in the name of Mr Jack McConnell, on the financial resolution in relation to the Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill, be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713825", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pollokshaws Sports Centre", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27225, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 636.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 636.0, "ID": 27225, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 637.0, "ContributionID": 713825, "EditedText": "Members' business today is motion S1M-275, in the name of Nicola Sturgeon, on Pollokshaws sports centre. The debate lasts 30 minutes and I ask those who are not staying for the debate to leave quietly and quickly.", "EditedTextHTML": "Members' business today is motion S1M-275, in the name of Nicola Sturgeon, on Pollokshaws sports centre. The debate lasts 30 minutes and I ask those who are not staying for the debate to leave quietly and quickly.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713826", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pollokshaws Sports Centre", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27225, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 636.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 636.0, "ID": 27225, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 639.0, "ContributionID": 713826, "EditedText": "Motion debated,", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion debated,

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2013E134P232C713830", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pollokshaws Sports Centre", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27225, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 636.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 636.0, "ID": 27225, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jackson, Gordon", "ID": 2013, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Govan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Gordon Jackson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Gordon Jackson (Glasgow Govan) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 647.0, "ContributionID": 713830, "EditedText": "I am happy to support Nicola's motion, and I will not simply rehearse the arguments that she has just given. For the people of Pollokshaws, this issue goes wider than the baths. They feel very badly let down. They write to me—and, no doubt, to others—about their sense of betrayal and about the fact that an area is going into decline and nothing very much is being done about it. I have campaigned for the sports centre and written to the council about the general decline in the area. I have had a number of responses, but— thankfully, perhaps—I do not have time to go into all of them. I might paraphrase one response in this way: things are not quite as bad as they are made out to be. The council says that the area is not especially badly served, but that there are some worrying signs. That is not my impression of the area. In the arcade in Shawbridge Street, I find empty shops and an area that I can describe only as increasingly dilapidated. People in the area feel that it is becoming a dumping ground, although Glasgow City Council will deny that. A council report talks of a huge increase in drug-taking; it talks of the high rate of referral and of not having the resources to deal with it. Crime is up. There are no facilities: tennis courts, gone; bowling green, gone; and now we are told that the sports centre, the baths and the laundrette are to go too. The local people are told to take two buses to the Gorbals; as Nicola says, we might as well tell them to go to the other side of the city. In fairness, a lot of the reports that we have received make interesting reading. But what will happen tomorrow? Will the library go? I am told that it will not, but another council report—\"Council Services and Investment in Pollokshaws\"—says that the future of the swimming pool and the library is limited. The conclusion of that report talks of an area \"at risk\", and of an area \"requiring perhaps relatively modest additional investment to maintain certain provisions.\" That is good—it suggests that it will not take much to make things better—but then I read in the next sentence that it is \"difficult to identify the necessary resources to undertake identified work.\" In other words, it will not take much to make things better but tough, the money required is apparently not to be made available. That is the response and I can understand why the people of Pollokshaws feel badly let down. Another response suggests that members of the Scottish Parliament might be better advised to mind their own business and not get involved in the business of the council. In my opinion, this is our business. I understand that the council will make the final decision, but our business is not just to come here and to legislate, but to represent the people who elect us. I know that this is a difficult issue and I understand the arguments that we will hear from Rhona Brankin about best value, financial constraints and new for old, but the people of the area are asking just one question—what are we getting? We are being told what we are losing, but what are we getting? The answer, so far, is nothing. Until that question is answered, we are entitled to say, \"Don't shut down this last facility.\"", "EditedTextHTML": "I am happy to support Nicola's motion, and I will not simply rehearse the arguments that she has just given.

For the people of Pollokshaws, this issue goes wider than the baths. They feel very badly let down. They write to me—and, no doubt, to others—about their sense of betrayal and about the fact that an area is going into decline and nothing very much is being done about it.

I have campaigned for the sports centre and written to the council about the general decline in the area. I have had a number of responses, but— thankfully, perhaps—I do not have time to go into all of them. I might paraphrase one response in this way: things are not quite as bad as they are made out to be. The council says that the area is not especially badly served, but that there are some worrying signs.

That is not my impression of the area. In the arcade in Shawbridge Street, I find empty shops and an area that I can describe only as increasingly dilapidated. People in the area feel that it is becoming a dumping ground, although Glasgow City Council will deny that. A council report talks of a huge increase in drug-taking; it talks of the high rate of referral and of not having the resources to deal with it. Crime is up. There are no facilities: tennis courts, gone; bowling green, gone; and now we are told that the sports centre, the baths and the laundrette are to go too. The local people are told to take two buses to the Gorbals; as Nicola says, we might as well tell them to go to the other side of the city.

In fairness, a lot of the reports that we have received make interesting reading. But what will happen tomorrow? Will the library go? I am told that it will not, but another council report—\"Council Services and Investment in Pollokshaws\"—says that the future of the swimming pool and the library is limited. The conclusion of that report talks of an area \"at risk\", and of an area

\"requiring perhaps relatively modest additional investment to maintain certain provisions.\"

That is good—it suggests that it will not take much to make things better—but then I read in the next sentence that it is

\"difficult to identify the necessary resources to undertake identified work.\"

In other words, it will not take much to make things better but tough, the money required is apparently not to be made available. That is the response and I can understand why the people of Pollokshaws feel badly let down.

Another response suggests that members of the Scottish Parliament might be better advised to mind their own business and not get involved in the business of the council. In my opinion, this is our business. I understand that the council will make the final decision, but our business is not just to come here and to legislate, but to represent the people who elect us.

I know that this is a difficult issue and I understand the arguments that we will hear from Rhona Brankin about best value, financial constraints and new for old, but the people of the area are asking just one question—what are we getting? We are being told what we are losing, but what are we getting?

The answer, so far, is nothing. Until that question is answered, we are entitled to say, \"Don't shut down this last facility.\"

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2234E7P20C713831", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pollokshaws Sports Centre", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27225, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 636.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 636.0, "ID": 27225, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Aitken, Bill", "ID": 2234, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bill Aitken", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bill Aitken (Glasgow) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 650.0, "ContributionID": 713831, "EditedText": "I am grateful to Nicola Sturgeon for the opportunity to participate in this debate, which highlights a number of important issues. The first issue is the effect that the loss of this amenity will have on the local area. Nicola has articulated very well the arguments that should have been advanced earlier at city council level. However, the major issue is the attitude that seems to exist concerning facilities that should be offered to communities generally. Several former Glasgow city councillors are present at this debate and they will remember that the word \"culture\" used to make the eyes of even the most hard-headed council members glaze over. It has to be realised and appreciated that culture is an all-embracing word, which can mean sport and physical recreation. For the people of Pollokshaws, many of whom will have considerable and wide cultural interests, the present centre provides a sporting facility that is much in demand by both young and older people. As Nicola said, some of those older people need the facility to recover from surgery. We have to consider this issue in the broadest sense. I hope that the minister will address the point that culture must be a much more widely embracing concept than it is at present. One man's culture is another man's sport, but they are basically the same thing. People are entitled to have a recreational facility in which they can enjoy their free hours in team sports and other such activities that can promote a community's spirit.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful to Nicola Sturgeon for the opportunity to participate in this debate, which highlights a number of important issues.

The first issue is the effect that the loss of this amenity will have on the local area. Nicola has articulated very well the arguments that should have been advanced earlier at city council level. However, the major issue is the attitude that seems to exist concerning facilities that should be offered to communities generally.

Several former Glasgow city councillors are present at this debate and they will remember that the word \"culture\" used to make the eyes of even the most hard-headed council members glaze over. It has to be realised and appreciated that culture is an all-embracing word, which can mean sport and physical recreation. For the people of

Pollokshaws, many of whom will have considerable and wide cultural interests, the present centre provides a sporting facility that is much in demand by both young and older people. As Nicola said, some of those older people need the facility to recover from surgery.

We have to consider this issue in the broadest sense. I hope that the minister will address the point that culture must be a much more widely embracing concept than it is at present. One man's culture is another man's sport, but they are basically the same thing. People are entitled to have a recreational facility in which they can enjoy their free hours in team sports and other such activities that can promote a community's spirit.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C713832", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pollokshaws Sports Centre", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27225, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 636.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 636.0, "ID": 27225, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan (Glasgow) (SSP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 653.0, "ContributionID": 713832, "EditedText": "Although I want to associate myself with Nicola's opening comments, I want to make one correction for the record. Nicola said that the residents of Pollokshaws are being referred to the new sports centres in Pollok and the Gorbals. Pollok does not have a sports centre and no such facility is in the pipeline, which is a disgrace. Pollokshaws residents have been referred to the sports centre at Bellahouston, where a swimming pool is currently being built. Anyone who knows about getting from Pollokshaws to Bellahouston will know how inconvenient that journey will be, particularly for residents in the high-rise flats surrounding Pollokshaws swimming pool, compared with the current ease of access to existing facilities. They will realise that the idea behind going to the Gorbals or Bellahouston is simply spin. The number of people who will make the journey to those facilities will be nowhere near the number who use Pollokshaws. The Labour council should be ashamed of its decision to close those facilities. I am often accused of being overly political. I do not want to disappoint people. Although I welcome Gordon's support in the campaign to keep the facility open, I remind him that when his report was submitted to Glasgow City Council's culture and leisure services committee, which I attended as a city councillor, I moved a motion of opposition to the closure on the basis that it would remove a very important amenity for the people of Pollokshaws. Although the SNP councillor, John Mason, seconded that motion, not one of the 30 or so Labour councillors present supported it. They should be ashamed. What we have here is death by a thousand cuts. Govan pool had a pool and a laundry and was well used by the local community, but it was closed a year and a half ago, despite a very vociferous and organised local campaign. Pollokshaws pool has a very important proper pool—not a fun pool—that many elderly people use and another pool where people can learn to swim. I learned to swim there myself, because we used to be fed to that pool from Lourdes secondary school. The removal of this facility will be a disaster for the community. Two days after the culture and leisure services committee's decision, I was asked by three individuals from the sport and leisure industry to facilitate a meeting with the director of culture and leisure. They were interested in taking on that facility because they thought that, although they could not afford to run the pool, the sports centre was a viable project. If three individuals think it is viable, it should be viable for Glasgow City Council.", "EditedTextHTML": "Although I want to associate myself with Nicola's opening comments, I want to make one correction for the record. Nicola said that the residents of Pollokshaws are being referred to the new sports centres in Pollok and the Gorbals. Pollok does not have a sports centre and no such facility is in the pipeline, which is a disgrace. Pollokshaws residents have been referred to the sports centre at Bellahouston, where a swimming pool is currently being built.

Anyone who knows about getting from Pollokshaws to Bellahouston will know how inconvenient that journey will be, particularly for residents in the high-rise flats surrounding Pollokshaws swimming pool, compared with the current ease of access to existing facilities. They will realise that the idea behind going to the Gorbals or Bellahouston is simply spin. The number of people who will make the journey to those facilities will be nowhere near the number who use Pollokshaws. The Labour council should be ashamed of its decision to close those facilities.

I am often accused of being overly political. I do not want to disappoint people. Although I welcome Gordon's support in the campaign to keep the facility open, I remind him that when his report was submitted to Glasgow City Council's culture and leisure services committee, which I attended as a city councillor, I moved a motion of opposition to the closure on the basis that it would remove a very important amenity for the people of Pollokshaws. Although the SNP councillor, John Mason, seconded that motion, not one of the 30 or so Labour councillors present supported it. They should be ashamed.

What we have here is death by a thousand cuts. Govan pool had a pool and a laundry and was well used by the local community, but it was closed a year and a half ago, despite a very vociferous and organised local campaign. Pollokshaws pool has a very important proper pool—not a fun pool—that many elderly people use and another pool where people can learn to swim. I learned to swim there myself, because we used to be fed to that pool from Lourdes secondary school. The removal of this facility will be a disaster for the community.

Two days after the culture and leisure services committee's decision, I was asked by three individuals from the sport and leisure industry to facilitate a meeting with the director of culture and leisure. They were interested in taking on that facility because they thought that, although they could not afford to run the pool, the sports centre was a viable project. If three individuals think it is viable, it should be viable for Glasgow City Council.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2185E120P328C713833", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pollokshaws Sports Centre", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27225, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 636.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 636.0, "ID": 27225, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Brown, Robert", "ID": 2185, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robert Brown", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robert Brown (Glasgow) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 656.0, "ContributionID": 713833, "EditedText": "I associate myself with all the comments that have been made so far. It is a little ironic that in the year of the setting up of the Scottish Parliament, with the extra emphasis on communities that has come with the renaissance of Scotland's national life and after the reports of the past week about the east- west divide, the north-south divide, and the divides within Glasgow, we are debating the closure of a well used community facility. I gained a little experience of the closure of community facilities during my time on the council. It is an awful lot easier to close facilities—taking away the associated clubs and other various uses—than it is to reopen them. Tommy Sheridan is right to talk about death by a thousand cuts— the closure will affect much more than just the facility itself. Glasgow has the merchant city and the second largest shopping facilities in Britain and—in stark contrast—a high proportion of deprived communities. The health perspective has been touched on. The infant mortality rate in Glasgow Govan is 86.1 per 100,000—almost treble the rate in a typical south of England constituency. A large number of people in the constituency, children in particular, live in poverty. It is appropriate that the Parliament should debate this issue. The council will make the ultimate decision, but it operates within a financial regime set out by this Parliament, which itself operates within the block laid down by the Westminster Parliament. I reiterate a point made repeatedly by my colleague, Donald Gorrie. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has a growing nest egg—in the national insurance fund and in the surpluses that are being kept in London—that could and should be used to support community initiatives and facilities such as the one in Pollokshaws. The money should trickle down, so that we can ensure that local communities in Glasgow have the support of all levels of government to enable them to survive. I hope that the council will reconsider its decision and that even at this late stage there is a chance that it will change its mind.", "EditedTextHTML": "I associate myself with all the comments that have been made so far. It is a little ironic that in the year of the setting up of the Scottish Parliament, with the extra emphasis on communities that has come with the renaissance of Scotland's national life and after the reports of the past week about the east- west divide, the north-south divide, and the divides within Glasgow, we are debating the closure of a well used community facility.

I gained a little experience of the closure of community facilities during my time on the council. It is an awful lot easier to close facilities—taking away the associated clubs and other various uses—than it is to reopen them. Tommy Sheridan is right to talk about death by a thousand cuts— the closure will affect much more than just the facility itself.

Glasgow has the merchant city and the second largest shopping facilities in Britain and—in stark contrast—a high proportion of deprived communities. The health perspective has been touched on. The infant mortality rate in Glasgow Govan is 86.1 per 100,000—almost treble the rate in a typical south of England constituency. A large number of people in the constituency, children in particular, live in poverty.

It is appropriate that the Parliament should debate this issue. The council will make the ultimate decision, but it operates within a financial regime set out by this Parliament, which itself operates within the block laid down by the Westminster Parliament.

I reiterate a point made repeatedly by my colleague, Donald Gorrie. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has a growing nest egg—in the national insurance fund and in the surpluses that are being kept in London—that could and should be used to support community initiatives and facilities such as the one in Pollokshaws. The

money should trickle down, so that we can ensure that local communities in Glasgow have the support of all levels of government to enable them to survive.

I hope that the council will reconsider its decision and that even at this late stage there is a chance that it will change its mind.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C713837", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pollokshaws Sports Centre", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27225, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 636.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 636.0, "ID": 27225, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 665.0, "ContributionID": 713837, "EditedText": "John Maclean stayed there too.", "EditedTextHTML": "John Maclean stayed there too.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1862E99P179C713840", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pollokshaws Sports Centre", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27225, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 636.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 636.0, "ID": 27225, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Brankin, Rhona", "ID": 1862, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Midlothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Culture and Sport", "SpeakerName": "Rhona Brankin", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Culture and Sport (Rhona Brankin): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 673.0, "ContributionID": 713840, "EditedText": "I am delighted to have the opportunity to wind up this debate on the provision of sport and leisure facilities in Scotland and particularly in Pollokshaws. I would like to say at the outset that, as part of its philosophy of sport for all, the Scottish Executive wants a wide range of sport and leisure facilities and opportunities to be made available to people in all parts of Scotland. Significant progress has been, and continues to be, made. Local authorities have a statutory duty, under section 14 of the Local Government and Planning (Scotland) Act 1982, to ensure adequate provision of facilities for recreational and sporting activities for the inhabitants of their area. Glasgow City Council, through its sport for life for you strategy, has made a major commitment to developing a network of new, state-of-the-art facilities. To achieve that, it has been necessary in some cases to adopt a policy of closure and replacement to address problems of poorer quality, more outdated facilities and, in some cases, inappropriate locations. The policy has been subject to a rigorous and planned process that has drawn on sportscotland's facilities planning model. Glasgow has been responsible in its approach to facilities provision. As it has added new, quality facilities, it has not sought to keep open poorer quality provision that, in some cases, has outlived its usefulness. The sport for life for you strategy reflects the national strategy for sport in Scotland, \"sport 21: nothing left to chance\". Since the launch of its strategy, Glasgow has opened modern, accessible, high-quality facilities at Scotstoun, Tollcross Park, Springburn and Gorbals, with another due to open at Bellahouston park next year. Lottery sports fund spending on facilities in Glasgow amounts to—", "EditedTextHTML": "I am delighted to have the opportunity to wind up this debate on the provision of sport and leisure facilities in Scotland and particularly in Pollokshaws.

I would like to say at the outset that, as part of its philosophy of sport for all, the Scottish Executive wants a wide range of sport and leisure facilities and opportunities to be made available to people in all parts of Scotland. Significant progress has been, and continues to be, made.

Local authorities have a statutory duty, under section 14 of the Local Government and Planning (Scotland) Act 1982, to ensure adequate provision of facilities for recreational and sporting activities for the inhabitants of their area. Glasgow City Council, through its sport for life for you strategy, has made a major commitment to developing a network of new, state-of-the-art facilities. To achieve that, it has been necessary in some cases to adopt a policy of closure and replacement to address problems of poorer quality, more outdated facilities and, in some cases, inappropriate locations.

The policy has been subject to a rigorous and planned process that has drawn on sportscotland's facilities planning model. Glasgow has been responsible in its approach to facilities provision. As it has added new, quality facilities, it has not sought to keep open poorer quality provision that, in some cases, has outlived its usefulness.

The sport for life for you strategy reflects the national strategy for sport in Scotland, \"sport 21: nothing left to chance\". Since the launch of its strategy, Glasgow has opened modern, accessible, high-quality facilities at Scotstoun, Tollcross Park, Springburn and Gorbals, with another due to open at Bellahouston park next year.

Lottery sports fund spending on facilities in Glasgow amounts to—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1862E99P179C713842", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pollokshaws Sports Centre", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27225, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 636.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 636.0, "ID": 27225, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Brankin, Rhona", "ID": 1862, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Midlothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Culture and Sport", "SpeakerName": "Rhona Brankin", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Rhona Brankin: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 677.0, "ContributionID": 713842, "EditedText": "Sorry, I think I know what the intervention is. The lottery sports fund spending amounts to £21million for project costs with a total value of £52 million.", "EditedTextHTML": "Sorry, I think I know what the intervention is.

The lottery sports fund spending amounts to £21million for project costs with a total value of £52 million.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1862E99P179C713845", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pollokshaws Sports Centre", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27225, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 636.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 636.0, "ID": 27225, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Brankin, Rhona", "ID": 1862, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Midlothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Culture and Sport", "SpeakerName": "Rhona Brankin", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Rhona Brankin: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 683.0, "ContributionID": 713845, "EditedText": "No thanks.The matter of Pollokshaws sports centre was addressed as part of a wider review that involved the closure of facilities because of their low usage levels, poor physical condition, age and proximity to recent and proposed developments. Sportscotland's facilities planning model was used to assess an analysis of pool provision and indicated that Pollokshaws should be closed when the new facilities at Gorbals and Bellahouston open in 2000. This assessment was based on supply, population, usage, present condition and accessibility.", "EditedTextHTML": "No thanks.

The matter of Pollokshaws sports centre was addressed as part of a wider review that involved the closure of facilities because of their low usage levels, poor physical condition, age and proximity to recent and proposed developments.

Sportscotland's facilities planning model was used to assess an analysis of pool provision and indicated that Pollokshaws should be closed when the new facilities at Gorbals and Bellahouston open in 2000. This assessment was based on supply, population, usage, present condition and accessibility.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713856", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pollokshaws Sports Centre", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27225, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 636.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 636.0, "ID": 27225, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 705.0, "ContributionID": 713856, "EditedText": "Meeting closed at 17:34.", "EditedTextHTML": "Meeting closed at 17:34.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C713666", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27196, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27197, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 258.0, "QuestionHeading": "Student Finance", "QuestionHeadingID": 27201, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 284.0, "DisplayOrder": 284.0, "ID": 27201, "ParentID": 27197 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 289.0, "ContributionID": 713666, "EditedText": "The deputy minister will recall that when Parliament accepted Mr Jim Wallace's motion to establish the independent committee, it was stated that the committee should report to Parliament. Does he agree that it is rather strange that the committee has decided to report when Parliament is not meeting? Does he agree that it is utterly inappropriate for the coalition partners to be joining together in a Cabinet committee, formed by Mr Henry McLeish to discuss the issue, before Parliament has had any opportunity to discuss the subject?", "EditedTextHTML": "The deputy minister will recall that when Parliament accepted Mr Jim Wallace's motion to establish the independent committee, it was stated that the committee should report to Parliament. Does he agree that it is rather strange that the committee has decided to report when Parliament is not meeting? Does he agree that it is utterly inappropriate for the coalition partners to be joining together in a Cabinet committee, formed by Mr Henry McLeish to discuss the issue, before Parliament has had any opportunity to discuss the subject?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:15:01.1305372+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2110E214P424C713834", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pollokshaws Sports Centre", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27225, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 636.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 636.0, "ID": 27225, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gibson, Kenneth", "ID": 2110, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenneth Gibson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Kenneth Gibson (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 659.0, "ContributionID": 713834, "EditedText": "In case folk are wondering why the expression \"queer folk\" is used about the people of Pollokshaws, it is because the area has a very interesting history. It was founded as a Huguenot village in the 18th century. I understand that French was spoken there until the early 19th century.", "EditedTextHTML": "In case folk are wondering why the expression \"queer folk\" is used about the people of Pollokshaws, it is because the area has a very interesting history. It was founded as a Huguenot village in the 18th century. I understand that French was spoken there until the early 19th century.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:20:08.7854474+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2110E214P424C713838", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pollokshaws Sports Centre", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27225, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 636.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 636.0, "ID": 27225, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gibson, Kenneth", "ID": 2110, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenneth Gibson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Gibson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 667.0, "ContributionID": 713838, "EditedText": "That is right.The social structure of Pollokshaws is such that a third of the population is retired, which is considerably higher than the Glasgow average. More than 60 per cent of people in Pollokshaws have no access to a car and rely on public transport. As others have said, it would be extremely difficult to travel to the sports centres at Bellahouston or Gorbals due to the routes that would have to be taken. Pollokshaws is one of the poorer areas in the Glasgow Govan constituency, which has the eighth worst health record in the United Kingdom. If it were not for the fact that the area is in Glasgow, it would be a social inclusion area. That is a point that must be taken on board. Bailie Liz Cameron, who I know very well and who is convener of culture and leisure services at Glasgow City Council, sent a letter to Nicola Sturgeon on 2 December. In her letter, Bailie Cameron mentioned that other facilities are available in the ward, such as the Burrell museum, Pollok House and the Tramway theatre. However, those facilities are not particularly close to Pollokshaws, especially for elderly people who would have to walk to them, as there are no reasonable bus routes. In any case, such facilities do not necessarily appeal to the people who live in the area. Bailie Cameron says:\"if MSPs like yourself could persuade the Scottish Executive to fund . . . the Capital Spend on . . . Pollokshaws Pool then it might be a different story.\" She is basically appealing to us and the ScottishExecutive to make resources available to Glasgow City Council so that it does not have to close the facility. The council talks about new for old but, in my seven years' experience as a Glasgow councillor, it is often nowt for old. When facilities close, they rarely reopen. Consultation has been mentioned. The council's deputy director of culture and leisure services wrote to the community council on 16 August, inviting it to a meeting on 20 August. I do not think that that is time enough to consult and to let the community attend a vital meeting on the future of such an important facility. I hope that we have all- party consent and Executive support for Glasgow City Council to maintain it.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is right.

The social structure of Pollokshaws is such that a third of the population is retired, which is considerably higher than the Glasgow average. More than 60 per cent of people in Pollokshaws have no access to a car and rely on public transport. As others have said, it would be extremely difficult to travel to the sports centres at Bellahouston or Gorbals due to the routes that would have to be taken.

Pollokshaws is one of the poorer areas in the Glasgow Govan constituency, which has the eighth worst health record in the United Kingdom. If it were not for the fact that the area is in Glasgow, it would be a social inclusion area. That is a point that must be taken on board.

Bailie Liz Cameron, who I know very well and who is convener of culture and leisure services at Glasgow City Council, sent a letter to Nicola Sturgeon on 2 December. In her letter, Bailie Cameron mentioned that other facilities are available in the ward, such as the Burrell museum, Pollok House and the Tramway theatre. However, those facilities are not particularly close to Pollokshaws, especially for elderly people who would have to walk to them, as there are no reasonable bus routes. In any case, such facilities do not necessarily appeal to the people who live in the area.

Bailie Cameron says:

\"if MSPs like yourself could persuade the Scottish Executive to fund . . . the Capital Spend on . . . Pollokshaws Pool then it might be a different story.\"

She is basically appealing to us and the Scottish

Executive to make resources available to Glasgow City Council so that it does not have to close the facility. The council talks about new for old but, in my seven years' experience as a Glasgow councillor, it is often nowt for old. When facilities close, they rarely reopen.

Consultation has been mentioned. The council's deputy director of culture and leisure services wrote to the community council on 16 August, inviting it to a meeting on 20 August. I do not think that that is time enough to consult and to let the community attend a vital meeting on the future of such an important facility. I hope that we have all- party consent and Executive support for Glasgow City Council to maintain it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:20:08.7854474+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713537", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Thursday 9 December 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 27188, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 27188, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 17.0, "ContributionID": 713537, "EditedText": "That is not a point of order. How ministerial statements are distributed is not a matter for the chair; it is a matter of agreement between the parties. You will have to pursue the issue outside the chamber. We have two ministerial statements this morning and an important debate, so I am anxious that we get started.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is not a point of order. How ministerial statements are distributed is not a matter for the chair; it is a matter of agreement between the parties. You will have to pursue the issue outside the chamber.

We have two ministerial statements this morning and an important debate, so I am anxious that we get started.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5607083+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2112E192P495C713541", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Waste Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27189, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 19.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 19.0, "ID": 27189, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacAskill, Kenny", "ID": 2112, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenny MacAskill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Kenny MacAskill (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 27.0, "ContributionID": 713541, "EditedText": "Very wise, Presiding Officer. The only mention of funding in the statement was of the £2.5 million that local authorities will be given to help them to prepare and plan. Extra funding for SEPA was mentioned, although it is noted that that organisation has had a 6 per cent cut in funding. It might be better for the £40 million a year that goes to the Exchequer from landfill tax—80 per cent of which is ring-fenced for a reduction in employers' national insurance contributions—to be used to expand recycling and an alternative waste strategy in Scotland. Would it not be better if the minister kept her £2.5 million and allowed local authorities and the operators to use the £40 million that they currently send south to promote recycling and a new strategy in Scotland?", "EditedTextHTML": "Very wise, Presiding Officer.

The only mention of funding in the statement was of the £2.5 million that local authorities will be given to help them to prepare and plan. Extra funding for SEPA was mentioned, although it is noted that that organisation has had a 6 per cent cut in funding.

It might be better for the £40 million a year that goes to the Exchequer from landfill tax—80 per cent of which is ring-fenced for a reduction in employers' national insurance contributions—to be used to expand recycling and an alternative waste strategy in Scotland. Would it not be better if the minister kept her £2.5 million and allowed local authorities and the operators to use the £40 million that they currently send south to promote recycling and a new strategy in Scotland?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5607083+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1970E66P288C713549", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Waste Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27189, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 19.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 19.0, "ID": 27189, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNulty, Des", "ID": 1970, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Clydebank and Milngavie" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Des McNulty", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Des McNulty (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 43.0, "ContributionID": 713549, "EditedText": "I welcome the minister's statement and her refreshing honesty. Everyone recognises that there is a lot to do to implement the national waste strategy. What efforts has Ms Boyack made to ensure that companies—particularly in the construction and demolition sector—dispose of their waste properly, rather than dump it or transfer it for collection by local authorities? Is she satisfied with the environmental projects that commercial operators sponsor with landfill tax rebates, given that few of them are geared towards recycling and that the commercial interests of many such companies lie in maintaining waste volumes for disposal rather than reducing them?", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the minister's statement and her refreshing honesty. Everyone recognises that there is a lot to do to implement the national waste strategy.

What efforts has Ms Boyack made to ensure that companies—particularly in the construction and demolition sector—dispose of their waste properly, rather than dump it or transfer it for collection by local authorities? Is she satisfied with the environmental projects that commercial operators sponsor with landfill tax rebates, given that few of them are geared towards recycling and that the commercial interests of many such companies lie in maintaining waste volumes for disposal rather than reducing them?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5607083+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1908E166P251C713555", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Waste Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27189, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 19.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 19.0, "ID": 27189, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Kerr, Andy", "ID": 1908, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Kilbride" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andy Kerr", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Andy Kerr (East Kilbride) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 55.0, "ContributionID": 713555, "EditedText": "I thank the minister for her statement. I would like to ask a question on the more local issues of dealing with landfill sites with perceived problems. Landfill technology has moved on over a number of years and it is arguable that modern sites provide a more reliable environmental service to the community. However, older sites present a problem. We must consider how retrospective we can be in taking action on existing sites with waste management problems. I would like to hear the minister's views on that. I have personal experience of the economics of recycling, from my time at Glasgow City Council. I put a plan to the council to introduce a recycling project for waste newspaper. The plan was accepted, but by the time I got the leaflets back from the printers, a selling price of £100 per tonne had changed to minus £15—a charge for the waste to be taken away. How do we deal with such variations in the market for recycled products?", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the minister for her statement. I would like to ask a

question on the more local issues of dealing with landfill sites with perceived problems. Landfill technology has moved on over a number of years and it is arguable that modern sites provide a more reliable environmental service to the community. However, older sites present a problem. We must consider how retrospective we can be in taking action on existing sites with waste management problems. I would like to hear the minister's views on that.

I have personal experience of the economics of recycling, from my time at Glasgow City Council. I put a plan to the council to introduce a recycling project for waste newspaper. The plan was accepted, but by the time I got the leaflets back from the printers, a selling price of £100 per tonne had changed to minus £15—a charge for the waste to be taken away. How do we deal with such variations in the market for recycled products?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5607083+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713558", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Waste Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27189, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 19.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 19.0, "ID": 27189, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 61.0, "ContributionID": 713558, "EditedText": "Order. Questions and answers have been far too long this morning. I call Sarah Boyack.", "EditedTextHTML": "Order. Questions and answers have been far too long this morning. I call Sarah Boyack.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5607083+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2185E120P328C713573", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Housing", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27190, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 27190, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Brown, Robert", "ID": 2185, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robert Brown", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robert Brown (Glasgow) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 93.0, "ContributionID": 713573, "EditedText": "I also welcome the minister's announcements and her support for Liberal achievements in housing in the past. Does the minister recognise that those achievements are not limited to rural housing, but include the Housing (Homeless Persons) Act 1977 and the achievement by the partnership Executive of the reforms to Scottish Homes that she has announced today? Does she recognise that many of us have reservations about the right to buy? Is she satisfied that it is valid to base policy on generalised national statistics? Is she aware, for example, that the so-called rural areas include Kilmarnock, Stirling, Inverness and Dumfries and that extra houses in Stirling will not make up for even small sales of stock in Stirlingshire villages? Will she elaborate on the research that showed that 850 houses a year would be bought when over 1,300 houses a year are currently being sold from housing association and Scottish Homes stock? Finally, will the minister undertake to leave open the possibility of a full review of the right-to-buy proposals in the light of detailed representations by the housing organisations and local housing associations, which she praised earlier but which are mostly opposed on pragmatic grounds to any extension of the right to buy, as they see it as damaging to a realistic housing strategy?", "EditedTextHTML": "I also welcome the minister's announcements and her support for Liberal achievements in housing in the past.

Does the minister recognise that those achievements are not limited to rural housing, but include the Housing (Homeless Persons) Act 1977 and the achievement by the partnership Executive of the reforms to Scottish Homes that she has announced today? Does she recognise that many of us have reservations about the right to buy? Is

she satisfied that it is valid to base policy on generalised national statistics? Is she aware, for example, that the so-called rural areas include Kilmarnock, Stirling, Inverness and Dumfries and that extra houses in Stirling will not make up for even small sales of stock in Stirlingshire villages? Will she elaborate on the research that showed that 850 houses a year would be bought when over 1,300 houses a year are currently being sold from housing association and Scottish Homes stock?

Finally, will the minister undertake to leave open the possibility of a full review of the right-to-buy proposals in the light of detailed representations by the housing organisations and local housing associations, which she praised earlier but which are mostly opposed on pragmatic grounds to any extension of the right to buy, as they see it as damaging to a realistic housing strategy?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5607083+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C713574", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Housing", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27190, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 27190, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 95.0, "ContributionID": 713574, "EditedText": "I am happy to welcome the contribution made by both sides of the partnership in developing our housing policy. That contribution can be seen in several areas: our response to dampness, rural housing, housing tribunals, the role of housing associations, community empowerment and other areas. I am happy to share with the member the extensive research on right to buy. Throughout the history of right to buy, sales have been 2 per cent a year in local authorities, with a slight blip in 1989, and 1 per cent in housing associations; a third of housing association tenants in Scotland already have the right to buy. Therefore, there is a high degree of predictability on sales. As well as being based on that history, the estimates are based on complex algorithmic models that I would be happy to share with the member—but not now. The estimates have also been broken down authority by authority. We estimate that 120 sales will be in rural areas. We are firm in our proposal that all Scottish tenants should have the best ever tenants' rights, including the right to buy. There are technical issues over retrospectivity on which we are happy to consult the organisations, and we will do so, but our vision is clear.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am happy to welcome the contribution made by both sides of the partnership in developing our housing policy. That contribution can be seen in several areas: our response to dampness, rural housing, housing tribunals, the role of housing associations, community empowerment and other areas.

I am happy to share with the member the extensive research on right to buy. Throughout the history of right to buy, sales have been 2 per cent a year in local authorities, with a slight blip in 1989, and 1 per cent in housing associations; a third of housing association tenants in Scotland already have the right to buy. Therefore, there is a high degree of predictability on sales. As well as being based on that history, the estimates are based on complex algorithmic models that I would be happy to share with the member—but not now. The estimates have also been broken down authority by authority. We estimate that 120 sales will be in rural areas.

We are firm in our proposal that all Scottish tenants should have the best ever tenants' rights, including the right to buy. There are technical issues over retrospectivity on which we are happy to consult the organisations, and we will do so, but our vision is clear.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5607083+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C713582", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Housing", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27190, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 27190, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 111.0, "ContributionID": 713582, "EditedText": "I am waiting for the answer.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am waiting for the answer.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5607083+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C713585", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Housing", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27190, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 27190, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 117.0, "ContributionID": 713585, "EditedText": "As members know, it is less than a year since we introduced anti-social behaviour orders. Within 12 months, we expect to receive reports on how they are operating. As Dr Murray suggests, the reason that those orders are a major step forward is that we no longer require individuals to act against anti-social neighbours. We have vested that power in local authorities, which avoids some of the problems of intimidation that we have experienced in the past. Anti-social behaviour orders help us, for the first time, to move the debate beyond seeing this simply as a tenant problem. Anti-social behaviour happens in every section of the community, and the orders give us the opportunity to act against owner-occupiers who become neighbours from hell. Local authorities need help and support to develop that function and we are happy to provide it.", "EditedTextHTML": "As members know, it is less than a year since we introduced anti-social behaviour orders. Within 12 months, we expect to receive reports on how they are operating. As Dr Murray suggests, the reason that those orders are a major step forward is that we no longer require individuals to act against anti-social neighbours. We have vested that power in local authorities, which avoids some of the problems of intimidation that we have experienced in the past.

Anti-social behaviour orders help us, for the first time, to move the debate beyond seeing this simply as a tenant problem. Anti-social behaviour happens in every section of the community, and the orders give us the opportunity to act against owner-occupiers who become neighbours from hell. Local authorities need help and support to develop that function and we are happy to provide it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5607083+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2090E83P266C713588", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Housing", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27190, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 27190, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAllion, Mr John", "ID": 2090, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dundee East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John McAllion", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr John McAllion (Dundee East) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 123.0, "ContributionID": 713588, "EditedText": "Given that local authorities that transfer their housing stock will be rewarded with a share of Scottish Homes' £200 million development funding, what guarantee is there for local authorities such as Dundee that the large outstanding debt that is associated with their stock will transfer to the Scottish Executive? Unless such a guarantee is forthcoming, there will be no stock transfers in Dundee, which could find itself as the only local authority in Tayside that is unable to get access to that development funding. Such a situation will only further disadvantage Dundee in relation to Perth and Angus, and will make impossible a coherent regional housing strategy for Tayside.", "EditedTextHTML": "Given that local authorities that transfer their housing stock will be rewarded with a share of Scottish Homes' £200 million development funding, what guarantee is there for local authorities such as Dundee that the large outstanding debt that is associated with their stock will transfer to the Scottish Executive? Unless such a guarantee is forthcoming, there will be no stock transfers in Dundee, which could find itself as the only local authority in Tayside that is unable to get access to that development funding. Such a situation will only further disadvantage Dundee in relation to Perth and Angus, and will make impossible a coherent regional housing strategy for Tayside.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5607083+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C713589", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Housing", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27190, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 27190, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 125.0, "ContributionID": 713589, "EditedText": "Allowing local authorities to have responsibility for housing resources in their areas, including for development funding, is not a reward. It simply recognises the fact that it is difficult to expect somebody who is a direct housing provider to be completely impartial in providing resources to third parties in the area. On Dundee, I am aware of the exciting proposals that the community in Ardler has developed, and of its desire to make that new housing partnership a success. Some of the difficulties surrounding debt in Ardler have demonstrated why the way forward is for whole communities to decide as tenants whether they want to go down the community ownership route. As soon as there are partial transfers, it becomes difficult to say what portion of the historic debt can be assigned to communities. am comfortable with the principle that this Executive and this Parliament should shoulder some of the burden for council houses that are long demolished. That principle distinguishes us whole-heartedly from the previous Conservative Administration, which, if it had ever thought of pursuing this policy, would undoubtedly not have started in Glasgow, which has the worst problems of damp; nor would the Conservative Administration have started in cities such as Dundee.", "EditedTextHTML": "Allowing local authorities to have responsibility for housing resources in their areas, including for development funding, is not a reward. It simply recognises the fact that it is difficult to expect somebody who is a direct housing provider to be completely impartial in providing resources to third parties in the area.

On Dundee, I am aware of the exciting proposals that the community in Ardler has developed, and of its desire to make that new housing partnership a success. Some of the difficulties surrounding debt in Ardler have demonstrated why the way forward is for whole communities to decide as tenants whether they want to go down the community ownership route. As soon as there are partial transfers, it becomes difficult to say what portion of the historic debt can be assigned to communities.

am comfortable with the principle that this Executive and this Parliament should shoulder some of the burden for council houses that are long demolished. That principle distinguishes us whole-heartedly from the previous Conservative Administration, which, if it had ever thought of pursuing this policy, would undoubtedly not have started in Glasgow, which has the worst problems of damp; nor would the Conservative Administration have started in cities such as Dundee.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5607083+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713590", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Housing", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27190, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 27190, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 127.0, "ContributionID": 713590, "EditedText": "In spite of my allowing an extra five minutes for questions, there are still eight members who wanted to speak.", "EditedTextHTML": "In spite of my allowing an extra five minutes for questions, there are still eight members who wanted to speak.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5607083+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713591", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Standing Orders", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27191, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 129.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 129.0, "ID": 27191, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 130.0, "ContributionID": 713591, "EditedText": "We move to the main debate, which is on motion S1M-354, in the name of Mr Murray Tosh, who is the convener of the Procedures Committee, on the first report of that committee.", "EditedTextHTML": "We move to the main debate, which is on motion S1M-354, in the name of Mr Murray Tosh, who is the convener of the Procedures Committee, on the first report of that committee.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5607083+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C713595", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Standing Orders", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27191, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 129.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 129.0, "ID": 27191, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Patricia Ferguson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 141.0, "ContributionID": 713595, "EditedText": "We now move into the open part of the debate. The time limit for speeches will be four minutes. I advise members that it will be impossible to call everyone who wants to speak.", "EditedTextHTML": "We now move into the open part of the debate. The time limit for speeches will be four minutes. I advise members that it will be impossible to call everyone who wants to speak.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5607083+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C713593", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Standing Orders", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27191, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 129.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 129.0, "ID": 27191, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan (Glasgow) (SSP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 136.0, "ContributionID": 713593, "EditedText": "During this morning's statement on housing, I was described as a revolutionary, so it may come as a surprise to members that I support Murray Tosh's comments about the process being evolutionary. The Procedures Committee should be congratulated on bringing together a good document, which shows clearly that it has listened to all members about how Parliament operates. We are all finding our feet. This is a new Parliament. We are still working out when we are allowed to smoke, if we are allowed to smoke, and, if we are allowed to drink, when we are allowed to drink. I am sure that matters such as that will be discussed in future debates. The idea that the Executive should be as transparently accountable as possible to the whole Parliament is important, so I welcome the overwhelming majority of the changes that Murray Tosh mentioned. However, we feel that an amendment is necessary because of the newness of Parliament, which signifies a new politics in Scotland. We have moved from a Westminster situation in which politics is dominated by three parties—that always was out of synch with the reality in Scotland, where there were always four main political parties—to the election of this Parliament in May and the emergence of six political parties. That is a welcome development, and I hope that it will flourish in the years to come. The election of Dennis Canavan as an independent member signified the fact that individuals in constituencies could use proportional representation to vote for either party list members or independent members. A number of individuals tried to stand as independents and were not successful, but Dennis was, and that will encourage those with independent minds who feel that they have something to offer Scottish politics to fancy their chances a bit more at the next election. It is important that we recognise that Parliament has not only two smaller parties, but an independent member. We should try to arrange our procedures to take on board that fact in determining the time that is allowed for non- Executive business. We must also recognise that things may change in future elections. Other independent members may be elected, for whom we would have to make time as well. We want to put down a marker that this Parliament will give due recognition to members who do not represent any political party. I hope that the amendment will be non-controversial and will get cross-party support. It should not cause major problems for the arrangement of parliamentary time. There has been justified criticism of the time scales that have been set for some debates as compared to the time allowed for others. We are learning and I hope that those mistakes will not be repeated. It should not be too much to ask for accommodation to be given for non-Executive business not just for the Scottish Socialist party and the Scottish Green party, but for members who do not represent any political party. I commend the amendment to Parliament and hope that it is non-controversial enough to encourage individuals of an independent mind to support it and not be whipped one way or the other. I move amendment S1M-354.1, after \"that draft\"insert:\"with the addition of, in Rule 5.6.1(b), ‘after \"under Rule 5.2.2\" insert \"or by members who do not represent a political party.'\"", "EditedTextHTML": "During this morning's statement on housing, I was described as a revolutionary, so it may come as a surprise to members that I support Murray Tosh's comments about the process being evolutionary. The Procedures Committee should be congratulated on bringing together a good document, which shows clearly that it has listened to all members about how Parliament operates.

We are all finding our feet. This is a new Parliament. We are still working out when we are allowed to smoke, if we are allowed to smoke, and, if we are allowed to drink, when we are allowed to drink. I am sure that matters such as that will be discussed in future debates.

The idea that the Executive should be as transparently accountable as possible to the whole Parliament is important, so I welcome the overwhelming majority of the changes that Murray Tosh mentioned. However, we feel that an amendment is necessary because of the newness of Parliament, which signifies a new politics in Scotland. We have moved from a Westminster situation in which politics is dominated by three parties—that always was out of synch with the reality in Scotland, where there were always four main political parties—to the election of this Parliament in May and the emergence of six political parties. That is a welcome development, and I hope that it will flourish in the years to come.

The election of Dennis Canavan as an independent member signified the fact that individuals in constituencies could use proportional representation to vote for either party list members or independent members. A number of individuals tried to stand as independents and were not successful, but Dennis was, and that will encourage those with independent minds who feel that they have something to offer Scottish politics to fancy their chances a bit more at the next election.

It is important that we recognise that Parliament has not only two smaller parties, but an independent member. We should try to arrange our procedures to take on board that fact in determining the time that is allowed for non- Executive business. We must also recognise that things may change in future elections. Other independent members may be elected, for whom we would have to make time as well. We want to put down a marker that this Parliament will give due recognition to members who do not represent any political party.

I hope that the amendment will be non-controversial and will get cross-party support. It should not cause major problems for the arrangement of parliamentary time. There has been justified criticism of the time scales that have been set for some debates as compared to the time allowed for others. We are learning and I hope that those mistakes will not be repeated.

It should not be too much to ask for accommodation to be given for non-Executive business not just for the Scottish Socialist party and the Scottish Green party, but for members who do not represent any political party.

I commend the amendment to Parliament and hope that it is non-controversial enough to encourage individuals of an independent mind to support it and not be whipped one way or the other.

I move amendment S1M-354.1, after \"that draft\"

insert:

\"with the addition of, in Rule 5.6.1(b), ‘after \"under Rule 5.2.2\" insert \"or by members who do not represent a political party.'\"

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5607083+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C713597", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Standing Orders", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27191, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 129.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 129.0, "ID": 27191, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan (Falkirk West): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 146.0, "ContributionID": 713597, "EditedText": "Lord James.", "EditedTextHTML": "Lord James.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5607083+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1973E119P326C713599", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Standing Orders", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27191, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 129.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 129.0, "ID": 27191, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gorrie, Donald", "ID": 1973, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Donald Gorrie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Donald Gorrie (Central Scotland) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 151.0, "ContributionID": 713599, "EditedText": "I add my thanks and support to Murray Tosh and the officials who have worked diligently with us to try to improve arrangements. The committee looked carefully at the issue raised by Tommy Sheridan and came to a conclusion that I will support. I hope that it is not the subject of a whipped vote, as each member should make up his or her mind about the best mechanism for being fair to small parties and individual members such as Dennis Canavan, who all deserve an equitable but not excessive share of the Parliament's time and energy. On a theme similar to the one that Mike Russell raised, I should say that we have done well so far but we now have to look at more fundamental issues. He mentioned some of those—for example, how the parliament exerts its authority over the Executive in getting questions answered in a reasonable time, which does not happen at present. We must also consider how the Parliament exerts its authority over people who are apparently in the pay of the Executive yet spend much of their time denigrating members of the Parliament, parliamentary committees and so on. The Procedures Committee would be an appropriate vehicle to tackle that issue. I look forward to the committee taking a similarly harmonious approach to thorny problems in the future. I congratulate Murray Tosh on the report.", "EditedTextHTML": "I add my thanks and support to Murray Tosh and the officials who have worked diligently with us to try to improve arrangements.

The committee looked carefully at the issue raised by Tommy Sheridan and came to a conclusion that I will support. I hope that it is not the subject of a whipped vote, as each member should make up his or her mind about the best mechanism for being fair to small parties and individual members such as Dennis Canavan, who all deserve an equitable but not excessive share of the Parliament's time and energy.

On a theme similar to the one that Mike Russell raised, I should say that we have done well so far but we now have to look at more fundamental issues. He mentioned some of those—for example, how the parliament exerts its authority over the Executive in getting questions answered in a reasonable time, which does not happen at present.

We must also consider how the Parliament exerts its authority over people who are apparently in the pay of the Executive yet spend much of their time denigrating members of the Parliament, parliamentary committees and so on. The Procedures Committee would be an appropriate vehicle to tackle that issue.

I look forward to the committee taking a similarly harmonious approach to thorny problems in the future. I congratulate Murray Tosh on the report.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5607083+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C713602", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Standing Orders", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27191, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 129.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 129.0, "ID": 27191, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 159.0, "ContributionID": 713602, "EditedText": "I can call Janis Hughes if she can keep her remarks to under three minutes.", "EditedTextHTML": "I can call Janis Hughes if she can keep her remarks to under three minutes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5607083+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1791E121P209C713603", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Draft Standing Orders", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27191, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 129.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 129.0, "ID": 27191, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hughes, Janis", "ID": 1791, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Rutherglen" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Janis Hughes", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Janis Hughes (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 162.0, "ContributionID": 713603, "EditedText": "Thank you. I will try.I would like quickly to echo the comments of my colleagues on the Procedures Committee and congratulate Murray Tosh on the professionalism with which he has guided us, and the clerks on their commitment and hard work. It is a reflection on the consultative steering group's excellent work that only a few changes are needed to the standing orders at this stage. Murray is right to say that the Procedures Committee has worked very well together. I have found it a very enjoyable experience. We have exercised a common-sense approach in the spirit of the new politics. Johann Lamont is right to say that we have always to bear in mind the family-friendly aspects of the Scottish Parliament, especially as they encourage more women and people with caring responsibilities to participate. However, when we weighed up the issue of extending the evening meeting on Wednesdays to 7 pm when necessary, I certainly supported that on the basis that it would happen only when necessary and where notification was given. I will bear Johann's comments in mind and say to her that this is not the slippery slope to the Parliament becoming much less family friendly. As for Tommy Sheridan's amendment, he is right to say that the Parliament has moved away from three-party domination. Six parties are represented in the chamber. However, no one is saying that independents should be discouraged from standing. We need a flexible approach and have asked the Presiding Officer to exercise such an approach within the parliamentary rules, which allow non-aligned members to participate. We need to create standing orders that stand the test of time and that take into account changing circumstances. Bearing in mind that I need to keep my comments short, I commend the first report of the Procedures Committee as it stands.", "EditedTextHTML": "

Thank you. I will try.

I would like quickly to echo the comments of my colleagues on the Procedures Committee and congratulate Murray Tosh on the professionalism with which he has guided us, and the clerks on their commitment and hard work. It is a reflection

on the consultative steering group's excellent work that only a few changes are needed to the standing orders at this stage. Murray is right to say that the Procedures Committee has worked very well together. I have found it a very enjoyable experience. We have exercised a common-sense approach in the spirit of the new politics.

Johann Lamont is right to say that we have always to bear in mind the family-friendly aspects of the Scottish Parliament, especially as they encourage more women and people with caring responsibilities to participate. However, when we weighed up the issue of extending the evening meeting on Wednesdays to 7 pm when necessary, I certainly supported that on the basis that it would happen only when necessary and where notification was given. I will bear Johann's comments in mind and say to her that this is not the slippery slope to the Parliament becoming much less family friendly.

As for Tommy Sheridan's amendment, he is right to say that the Parliament has moved away from three-party domination. Six parties are represented in the chamber. However, no one is saying that independents should be discouraged from standing. We need a flexible approach and have asked the Presiding Officer to exercise such an approach within the parliamentary rules, which allow non-aligned members to participate.

We need to create standing orders that stand the test of time and that take into account changing circumstances. Bearing in mind that I need to keep my comments short, I commend the first report of the Procedures Committee as it stands.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5607083+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2123E103P242C713609", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27192, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 167.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 167.0, "ID": 27192, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Chisholm, Malcolm", "ID": 2123, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh North and Leith" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Malcolm Chisholm", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 177.0, "ContributionID": 713609, "EditedText": "I welcome the change to section 44 and the deletion of the reference to nutrition and hydration by artificial means as a medical treatment. However, as that deals with the concerns that people had about the powers of welfare attorneys or guardians in section 47, why has the minister gone against the wishes of the alliance for promotion of the incapable adults bill and of Alzheimer Scotland in giving primary authority on treatment decisions to medical opinion rather than to the welfare attorney or guardian?", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the change to section 44 and the deletion of the reference to nutrition and hydration by artificial means as a medical treatment. However, as that deals with the concerns that people had about the powers of welfare attorneys or guardians in section 47, why has the minister gone against the wishes of the alliance for promotion of the incapable adults bill and of Alzheimer Scotland in giving primary authority on treatment decisions to medical opinion rather than to the welfare attorney or guardian?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5607083+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713629", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27193, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 222.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 222.0, "ID": 27193, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 223.0, "ContributionID": 713629, "EditedText": "We now come to the business motion and two other Parliamentary Bureau motions.The next item of business is consideration of business motion S1M-364, in the name of Tom McCabe, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau.", "EditedTextHTML": "We now come to the business motion and two other

Parliamentary Bureau motions.

The next item of business is consideration of business motion S1M-364, in the name of Tom

McCabe, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5607083+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C713614", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27192, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 167.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 167.0, "ID": 27192, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 188.0, "ContributionID": 713614, "EditedText": "Will you close now, please?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will you close now, please?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5607083+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1863E284P532C713615", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27192, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 167.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 167.0, "ID": 27192, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Cunningham, Roseanna", "ID": 1863, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Perth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Roseanna Cunningham", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Roseanna Cunningham: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 190.0, "ContributionID": 713615, "EditedText": "The clock shows that I have 50 seconds left, Presiding Officer.", "EditedTextHTML": "The clock shows that I have 50 seconds left, Presiding Officer.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5607083+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1863E284P532C713617", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27192, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 167.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 167.0, "ID": 27192, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Cunningham, Roseanna", "ID": 1863, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Perth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Roseanna Cunningham", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Roseanna Cunningham: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 194.0, "ContributionID": 713617, "EditedText": "We should recognise that many organisations feel that, whether it intends to or not, the bill will introduce euthanasia by the back door. Much of the evidence that was heard at stage 1 was directed at that problem. I admit that there are areas of that debate in which I am, as yet, undecided as to whether the alarm that is being expressed is justified. Most of those issues will ultimately be addressed as matters of conscience. Certainly, when the specifics of the issues are debated, SNP members will have a free vote. Given the strength of feeling that exists, and assuming that there will be a free vote across the parties, I do not want the whole bill to be put at risk unnecessarily. I hope that the minister will go as far as he can to make the changes that would pacify the critics. The indications—I refer, obviously, to the proposals to amend sections 44 and 47—are that that is in his mind. We all agree that the bill is necessary. I hope that we can get it through with a minimum of fuss—that will be a victory for us all.", "EditedTextHTML": "We should recognise that many organisations feel that, whether it intends to or not, the bill will introduce euthanasia by the back door. Much of the evidence that was heard at stage 1 was directed at that problem. I admit that there are areas of that debate in which I am, as yet, undecided as to whether the alarm that is being expressed is justified.

Most of those issues will ultimately be addressed as matters of conscience. Certainly, when the specifics of the issues are debated, SNP members will have a free vote. Given the strength of feeling that exists, and assuming that there will be a free vote across the parties, I do not want the whole bill to be put at risk unnecessarily. I hope that the minister will go as far as he can to make the changes that would pacify the critics. The indications—I refer, obviously, to the proposals to amend sections 44 and 47—are that that is in his mind.

We all agree that the bill is necessary. I hope that we can get it through with a minimum of fuss—that will be a victory for us all.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5763323+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C713619", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27192, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 167.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 167.0, "ID": 27192, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Jim Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 199.0, "ContributionID": 713619, "EditedText": "I am happy to give the member that assurance.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am happy to give the member that assurance.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5763323+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C713621", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27192, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 167.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 167.0, "ID": 27192, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 203.0, "ContributionID": 713621, "EditedText": "I call Nora Radcliffe.", "EditedTextHTML": "I call Nora Radcliffe.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5763323+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1850E185P354C713622", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27192, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 167.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 167.0, "ID": 27192, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Radcliffe, Nora", "ID": 1850, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Gordon" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nora Radcliffe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nora Radcliffe (Gordon) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 206.0, "ContributionID": 713622, "EditedText": "I did not expect to be called.", "EditedTextHTML": "I did not expect to be called.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5763323+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1811E172P455C713627", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27192, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 167.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 167.0, "ID": 27192, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ullrich, Kay", "ID": 1811, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kay Ullrich", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Kay Ullrich (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 218.0, "ContributionID": 713627, "EditedText": "As Roseanna Cunningham said, we made a commitment in our manifesto for the Scottish Parliament to support an incapable adults bill, with the proviso that the bill should not include legislation on advance statements. That was done for a simple reason: we did not wish the focus of the bill to be distorted by the inclusion of what, obviously, is a controversial issue. I was delighted in June when the First Minister stated that the bill would not include legal provisions for advance statements. However, there are still concerns that the bill could lead to what some call back-door euthanasia, particularly because nutrition and hydration are defined in the bill as medical treatments. The concerns have not been lessened this week by claims in the press that food and drink have been withdrawn from elderly people in national health service care who were not terminally ill. In spite of the minister's concession today, which I welcome, that area will attract amendments at stage 2. My colleague Trish Marwick will expand on the issue later. When the committee took evidence, concerns were expressed, particularly by the British Medical Association and the Scottish Neurosurgical Consultants Forum, that measures to help long- term incapacitated adults could inadvertently affect the emergency care of those with acute organic mental incapacity, for example, those admitted to hospital after bad road traffic accidents with severe head injuries. Decisions to treat in such cases often have to be taken at night and at weekends, and often before relatives, proxies or guardians can be contacted. It is important to ensure that the measures in the bill for securing consent to treatment do not present an obstacle in emergencies. I hope that amendments at stage 2 will enable clarification of the necessity to treat in emergencies. Section 48 is about authority for research. I welcome the minister's concession. As it currently stands, it would be illegal to conduct research for the benefit of other, and potential, sufferers rather than for the benefit of the adult with incapacity. I was impressed by the submission of Alzheimer Scotland. It pointed out that a great deal of non- therapeutic research is currently being carried out and that the cessation of such research could have serious consequences for future prevention and treatment. For example, Alzheimer Scotland claims that, as it stands, the bill would outlaw the taking of blood samples, which could aid genetic research, and it would preclude all proper clinical trials of drug or other treatments. It also points out that many people with early dementia state that they would wish to give their consent to research being carried out at a later stage, even though they know that it is unlikely to be of direct benefit to them. The Law Society of Scotland recognises those concerns and suggests that amendments could be made, as long as they involve minimal risk or discomfort to the patient and ensure that non- therapeutic research is subject to strict regulation. In the short time allocated, I have highlighted a few of the health issues arising from the bill. The bill is not a political issue. I know that it has the support, in principle, of most—if not all—members of this Parliament. I ask not only the minister but members to ensure that at stage 2 amendments are lodged to clarify and enhance the bill, and to give rights, status and protection to Scotland's 100,000 people with mental incapacity. The bill will also make life a great deal easier for their carers, as it should enable them to manage their loved one's finances and make welfare decisions on their behalf when they can no longer do so for themselves.", "EditedTextHTML": "As Roseanna Cunningham said, we made a commitment in our manifesto for the Scottish Parliament to support an incapable adults bill, with the proviso that the bill should not include legislation on advance statements. That was done for a simple reason: we did not wish the focus of the bill to be distorted by the inclusion of what, obviously, is a controversial issue. I was delighted in June when the First Minister stated that the bill would not include legal provisions for advance statements.

However, there are still concerns that the bill could lead to what some call back-door euthanasia, particularly because nutrition and hydration are defined in the bill as medical treatments. The concerns have not been lessened this week by claims in the press that food and drink have been withdrawn from elderly people in national health service care who were not terminally ill. In spite of the minister's concession today, which I welcome, that area will attract amendments at stage 2. My colleague Trish Marwick will expand on the issue later.

When the committee took evidence, concerns were expressed, particularly by the British Medical Association and the Scottish Neurosurgical Consultants Forum, that measures to help long- term incapacitated adults could inadvertently affect the emergency care of those with acute organic mental incapacity, for example, those admitted to hospital after bad road traffic accidents with severe head injuries. Decisions to treat in such cases often have to be taken at night and at

weekends, and often before relatives, proxies or guardians can be contacted. It is important to ensure that the measures in the bill for securing consent to treatment do not present an obstacle in emergencies. I hope that amendments at stage 2 will enable clarification of the necessity to treat in emergencies.

Section 48 is about authority for research. I welcome the minister's concession. As it currently stands, it would be illegal to conduct research for the benefit of other, and potential, sufferers rather than for the benefit of the adult with incapacity. I was impressed by the submission of Alzheimer Scotland. It pointed out that a great deal of non- therapeutic research is currently being carried out and that the cessation of such research could have serious consequences for future prevention and treatment.

For example, Alzheimer Scotland claims that, as it stands, the bill would outlaw the taking of blood samples, which could aid genetic research, and it would preclude all proper clinical trials of drug or other treatments. It also points out that many people with early dementia state that they would wish to give their consent to research being carried out at a later stage, even though they know that it is unlikely to be of direct benefit to them.

The Law Society of Scotland recognises those concerns and suggests that amendments could be made, as long as they involve minimal risk or discomfort to the patient and ensure that non- therapeutic research is subject to strict regulation.

In the short time allocated, I have highlighted a few of the health issues arising from the bill. The bill is not a political issue. I know that it has the support, in principle, of most—if not all—members of this Parliament.

I ask not only the minister but members to ensure that at stage 2 amendments are lodged to clarify and enhance the bill, and to give rights, status and protection to Scotland's 100,000 people with mental incapacity. The bill will also make life a great deal easier for their carers, as it should enable them to manage their loved one's finances and make welfare decisions on their behalf when they can no longer do so for themselves.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5763323+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713634", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27193, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 222.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 222.0, "ID": 27193, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 229.0, "ContributionID": 713634, "EditedText": "5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business Thursday 16 December 1999 9.30 am Debate on an SNP motion on the Act of Settlement followed by Business Motion followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions", "EditedTextHTML": "5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business Thursday 16 December 1999 9.30 am Debate on an SNP motion on the Act of Settlement followed by Business Motion followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5763323+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713643", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Amnesic Shellfish Poisoning", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27194, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 239.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 239.0, "ID": 27194, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 242.0, "ContributionID": 713643, "EditedText": "The question is, that motion S1M-365 be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "The question is, that motion S1M-365 be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5763323+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713644", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Amnesic Shellfish Poisoning", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27194, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 239.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 239.0, "ID": 27194, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 244.0, "ContributionID": 713644, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5763323+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713649", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27195, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 245.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 245.0, "ID": 27195, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 251.0, "ContributionID": 713649, "EditedText": "Question, That the meeting be now adjourned until 2.30 pm today, put and agreed to.—Iain Smith.", "EditedTextHTML": "Question, That the meeting be now adjourned until 2.30 pm today, put and agreed to.—[Iain Smith.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5763323+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713651", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27195, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 245.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 245.0, "ID": 27195, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 254.0, "ContributionID": 713651, "EditedText": "On resuming—", "EditedTextHTML": "On resuming—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5763323+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1985E207P501C713653", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27196, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27197, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 258.0, "QuestionHeading": "Rural General Practitioners", "QuestionHeadingID": 27198, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 259.0, "DisplayOrder": 259.0, "ID": 27198, "ParentID": 27197 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hamilton, Mr Duncan", "ID": 1985, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "1. Mr Duncan Hamilton (Highlands and Islands) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 260.0, "ContributionID": 713653, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will detail the support available to general practitioners serving rural communities. (S1O-822) The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): GPs serving rural communities receive the same fees and allowances as their urban counterparts. They can also receive support through additional payments and schemes, which have been introduced in recognition of the needs of general practice in rural areas.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will detail the support available to general practitioners serving rural communities. (S1O-822) The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): GPs serving rural communities receive the same fees and allowances as their urban counterparts. They can also receive support through additional payments and schemes, which have been introduced in recognition of the needs of general practice in rural areas.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5763323+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C713656", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27196, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27197, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 258.0, "QuestionHeading": "Strategic Rail Authority", "QuestionHeadingID": 27199, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 266.0, "DisplayOrder": 266.0, "ID": 27199, "ParentID": 27197 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "2. Mr Murray Tosh (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 267.0, "ContributionID": 713656, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive, further to the statement made by Sarah Boyack on 7 October 1999, whether the proposed strategic rail authority will have powers and resources to provide grant aid to assist with the construction of new railway lines in Scotland, other than passenger revenue subsidies, and whether such powers will be subject to executive devolution to the Scottish Executive and Parliament. (S1O-803)", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive, further to the statement made by Sarah Boyack on 7 October 1999, whether the proposed strategic rail authority will have powers and resources to provide grant aid to assist with the construction of new railway lines in Scotland, other than passenger revenue subsidies, and whether such powers will be subject to executive devolution to the Scottish Executive and Parliament. (S1O-803)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5763323+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1854E38P164C713660", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27196, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27197, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 258.0, "QuestionHeading": "Anti-drug Education Programme", "QuestionHeadingID": 27200, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 275.0, "DisplayOrder": 275.0, "ID": 27200, "ParentID": 27197 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Godman, Trish", "ID": 1854, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Renfrewshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Trish Godman", "SpeakerDisplayName": "3. Trish Godman (West Renfrewshire) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 276.0, "ContributionID": 713660, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will publish any evidence it holds on the effectiveness of its anti-drug education programme in reducing the extent of drug use among young people. (S1O-826)", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will publish any evidence it holds on the effectiveness of its anti-drug education programme in reducing the extent of drug use among young people. (S1O-826)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5763323+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2154E194P299C713665", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27196, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27197, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 258.0, "QuestionHeading": "Student Finance", "QuestionHeadingID": 27201, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 284.0, "DisplayOrder": 284.0, "ID": 27201, "ParentID": 27197 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stephen, Nicol", "ID": 2154, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Nicol Stephen", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning (Nicol Stephen): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 287.0, "ContributionID": 713665, "EditedText": "The committee intends to present its report to the Executive on 21 December and we will lay a copy in Parliament that day.", "EditedTextHTML": "The committee intends to present its report to the Executive on 21 December and we will lay a copy in Parliament that day.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5763323+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C713670", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27196, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27197, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 258.0, "QuestionHeading": "National Park", "QuestionHeadingID": 27202, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 297.0, "DisplayOrder": 297.0, "ID": 27202, "ParentID": 27197 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "5. George Lyon (Argyll and Bute) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 298.0, "ContributionID": 713670, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive when a decision is to be taken on the boundaries of the Loch Lomond and Trossachs national park. (S1O-811) The Minister for Transport and the Environment (Sarah Boyack): The enabling legislation will be brought forward early next year. Once it has received royal assent, we will prepare, after full consultation, a designation order to set up a national park in Loch Lomond and the Trossachs, and set its boundaries. The order will be subject to approval as normal by the Scottish Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive when a decision is to be taken on the boundaries of the Loch Lomond and Trossachs national park. (S1O-811) The Minister for Transport and the Environment (Sarah Boyack): The enabling legislation will be brought forward early next year. Once it has received royal assent, we will prepare, after full consultation, a designation order to set up a national park in Loch Lomond and the Trossachs, and set its boundaries. The order will be subject to approval as normal by the Scottish Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5763323+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1888E265P358C713673", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27196, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27197, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 258.0, "QuestionHeading": "Roads (A75)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27203, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 304.0, "DisplayOrder": 304.0, "ID": 27203, "ParentID": 27197 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morgan, Alasdair", "ID": 1888, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Galloway and Upper Nithsdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morgan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "6. Alasdair Morgan (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 305.0, "ContributionID": 713673, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive when it intends to publish a route action plan for the A75. (S1O-821) The Minister for Transport and the Environment (Sarah Boyack): The route action plan study is in the final stages of preparation. I expect to receive a report for my consideration in the near future.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive when it intends to publish a route action plan for the A75. (S1O-821) The Minister for Transport and the Environment (Sarah Boyack): The route action plan study is in the final stages of preparation. I expect to receive a report for my consideration in the near future.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5763323+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C713679", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27196, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27197, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 258.0, "QuestionHeading": "Fire Service", "QuestionHeadingID": 27204, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 315.0, "DisplayOrder": 315.0, "ID": 27204, "ParentID": 27197 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Justice (Angus MacKay): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 318.0, "ContributionID": 713679, "EditedText": "None.", "EditedTextHTML": "None.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5763323+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713681", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27196, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27197, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 258.0, "QuestionHeading": "Fire Service", "QuestionHeadingID": 27204, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 315.0, "DisplayOrder": 315.0, "ID": 27204, "ParentID": 27197 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 322.0, "ContributionID": 713681, "EditedText": "Order. I remind members that points of view are not supposed to be expressed in questions. That is made clear in standing orders. Mr MacKay, will you answer Mr Quinan's supplementary question?", "EditedTextHTML": "Order. I remind members that points of view are not supposed to be expressed in questions. That is made clear in standing orders. Mr MacKay, will you answer Mr Quinan's supplementary question?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5763323+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C713688", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27196, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27197, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 258.0, "QuestionHeading": "Hill Farming", "QuestionHeadingID": 27206, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 333.0, "DisplayOrder": 333.0, "ID": 27206, "ParentID": 27197 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ross Finnie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 338.0, "ContributionID": 713688, "EditedText": "I will have to await the publication of that report. As Christine Grahame knows, while such a development could be important for the Borders, we have an overcapacity of total slaughtering capacity in Scotland and it would not necessarily be in our interests to increase that. However, I look forward to the report with interest.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will have to await the publication of that report. As Christine Grahame knows, while such a development could be important for the Borders, we have an overcapacity of total slaughtering capacity in Scotland and it would not necessarily be in our interests to increase that. However, I look forward to the report with interest.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5763323+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1762E216P508C713689", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27196, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27197, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 258.0, "QuestionHeading": "Landfill", "QuestionHeadingID": 27207, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 340.0, "DisplayOrder": 340.0, "ID": 27207, "ParentID": 27197 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Elder, Dorothy-Grace", "ID": 1762, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder", "SpeakerDisplayName": "10. Dorothy-Grace Elder (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 341.0, "ContributionID": 713689, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will take steps to ensure that any residents in the districts of Mount Vernon, Carmyle, Baillieston and Sandyhills affected by any problems associated with Paterson's toxic landfill site receive immediate compensation, possibly in the form of a reduction in council tax. (S1O-834) The Minister for Finance (Mr Jack McConnell): No. There are no provisions within council tax regulations that allow the payment of compensation to local taxpayers who live adjacent to Paterson's landfill site.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will take steps to ensure that any residents in the districts of Mount Vernon, Carmyle, Baillieston and Sandyhills affected by any problems associated with Paterson's toxic landfill site receive immediate compensation, possibly in the form of a reduction in council tax. (S1O-834) The Minister for Finance (Mr Jack McConnell): No. There are no provisions within council tax regulations that allow the payment of compensation to local taxpayers who live adjacent to Paterson's landfill site.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5763323+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1762E216P508C713690", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27196, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27197, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 258.0, "QuestionHeading": "Landfill", "QuestionHeadingID": 27207, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 340.0, "DisplayOrder": 340.0, "ID": 27207, "ParentID": 27197 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Elder, Dorothy-Grace", "ID": 1762, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 343.0, "ContributionID": 713690, "EditedText": "I thank the minister. As his own proposals involve an increase in council tax, can he think of any way in which it would be possible to compensate those who are forced to pay the already high levels of council tax in Glasgow, but who happen to reside next to a toxic tip that has been described by the public health department in Glasgow as emitting smells so noxious that they are literally breathtaking?", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the minister. As his own proposals involve an increase in council tax, can he think of any way in which it would be possible to compensate those who are forced to pay the already high levels of council tax in Glasgow, but who happen to reside next to a toxic tip that has been described by the public health department in Glasgow as emitting smells so noxious that they are literally breathtaking?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5763323+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1892E34P73C713693", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27196, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27197, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 258.0, "QuestionHeading": "Pig Industry", "QuestionHeadingID": 27208, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 347.0, "DisplayOrder": 347.0, "ID": 27208, "ParentID": 27197 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Fergusson, Alex", "ID": 1892, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Fergusson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Fergusson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 350.0, "ContributionID": 713693, "EditedText": "I thank the minister for his answer, but that will be of little comfort to the pig farmers who are in the public gallery today. Does the minister accept that the opinion of a growing number of farmers from all sectors is that, as far as their needs are concerned, the Executive has become no more than a talking shop, and that, as far as the pig sector is concerned, that will continue to be the case until meat hygiene and inspection charges are taken over as part of the health budget and away from the primary producer, in common with many other European countries, until the question of country of origin labelling is addressed immediately—", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the minister for his answer, but that will be of little comfort to the pig farmers who are in the public gallery today. Does the minister accept that the opinion of a growing number of farmers from all sectors is that, as far as their needs are concerned, the Executive has become no more than a talking shop, and that, as far as the pig sector is concerned, that will continue to be the case until meat hygiene and inspection charges are taken over as part of the health budget and away from the primary producer, in common with many other European countries, until the question of country of origin labelling is addressed immediately—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5763323+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713694", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27196, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27197, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 258.0, "QuestionHeading": "Pig Industry", "QuestionHeadingID": 27208, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 347.0, "DisplayOrder": 347.0, "ID": 27208, "ParentID": 27197 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 352.0, "ContributionID": 713694, "EditedText": "We must have a question.", "EditedTextHTML": "We must have a question.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5763323+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1782E69P279C713697", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27196, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27197, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 258.0, "QuestionHeading": "Fur Farming", "QuestionHeadingID": 27209, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 358.0, "DisplayOrder": 358.0, "ID": 27209, "ParentID": 27197 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Oldfather, Irene", "ID": 1782, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Cunninghame South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Irene Oldfather", "SpeakerDisplayName": "12. Ms Irene Oldfather (Cunninghame South) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 359.0, "ContributionID": 713697, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it has any plans to ban fur farming. (S1O-797) The Minister for Rural Affairs (Ross Finnie): I announced last week that the Scottish Executive will introduce a bill in the Scottish Parliament to ban fur farming in Scotland. That follows the decision to introduce similar legislation for England and Wales and is required to prevent fur farming businesses relocating to Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it has any plans to ban fur farming. (S1O-797) The Minister for Rural Affairs (Ross Finnie): I announced last week that the Scottish Executive will introduce a bill in the Scottish Parliament to ban fur farming in Scotland. That follows the decision to introduce similar legislation for England and Wales and is required to prevent fur farming businesses relocating to Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5763323+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C713699", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27196, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27197, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 258.0, "QuestionHeading": "Fur Farming", "QuestionHeadingID": 27209, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 358.0, "DisplayOrder": 358.0, "ID": 27209, "ParentID": 27197 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ross Finnie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 363.0, "ContributionID": 713699, "EditedText": "I have no precise timetable, but Ms Oldfather is absolutely right. The intention of the Executive is to ensure that we produce a consultation paper in time to deal with the responses, to run in parallel with the legislation that is being introduced in England and Wales and to ensure that there will be no relocation of those businesses in Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have no precise timetable, but Ms Oldfather is absolutely right. The intention of the Executive is to ensure that we produce a consultation paper in time to deal with the responses, to run in parallel with the legislation that is being introduced in England and Wales and to ensure that there will be no relocation of those businesses in Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5763323+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C713715", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27196, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27197, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 258.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Trade and Industry(Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27215, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 400.0, "DisplayOrder": 400.0, "ID": 27215, "ParentID": 27197 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "18. Alex Neil (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 401.0, "ContributionID": 713715, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive how many times the First Minister has met the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry since May 1999. (S1O-791) The First Minister (Donald Dewar): I have had no formal meetings with the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry since May 1999, but of course our departments keep closely in touch about matters of mutual interest.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive how many times the First Minister has met the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry since May 1999. (S1O-791) The First Minister (Donald Dewar): I have had no formal meetings with the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry since May 1999, but of course our departments keep closely in touch about matters of mutual interest.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2223E203P342C713718", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27196, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27197, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 258.0, "QuestionHeading": "Island General Practitioners", "QuestionHeadingID": 27216, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 407.0, "DisplayOrder": 407.0, "ID": 27216, "ParentID": 27197 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scott, Tavish", "ID": 2223, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Shetland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tavish Scott", "SpeakerDisplayName": "19. Tavish Scott (Shetland) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 408.0, "ContributionID": 713718, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what progress is being made towards introducing flexibility into the postgraduate education allowance to address the travel costs faced by island-based general practitioners who wish to update their training. (S1O-831) The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): I have no plans to review the travel cost element of the postgraduate education allowance. My officials and the Scottish general practitioners committee of the British Medical Association are, however, holding discussions on more flexible access to the full allowance for GPs in remote areas, including the islands.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what progress is being made towards introducing flexibility into the postgraduate education allowance to address the travel costs faced by island-based general practitioners who wish to update their training. (S1O-831) The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): I have no plans to review the travel cost element of the postgraduate education allowance. My officials and the Scottish general practitioners committee of the British Medical Association are, however, holding discussions on more flexible access to the full allowance for GPs in remote areas, including the islands.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2056E57P84C713721", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27196, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27197, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 258.0, "QuestionHeading": "Local Government Boundaries", "QuestionHeadingID": 27217, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 414.0, "DisplayOrder": 414.0, "ID": 27217, "ParentID": 27197 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James", "ID": 2056, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "James Douglas-Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "21. Lord James Douglas-Hamilton (Lothians) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 415.0, "ContributionID": 713721, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether there will be any possible consequences for local government boundaries arising from any legislative provision for the future reduction in the number of members of the Scottish Parliament, whether it will make representations on any such consequences and, if so, what its representations will be. (S1O-785) The Deputy Minister for Local Government (Mr Frank McAveety): No, the Parliamentary Boundary Commission has no power to alter local government boundaries.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether there will be any possible consequences for local government boundaries arising from any legislative provision for the future reduction in the number of members of the Scottish Parliament, whether it will make representations on any such consequences and, if so, what its representations will be. (S1O-785) The Deputy Minister for Local Government (Mr Frank McAveety): No, the Parliamentary Boundary Commission has no power to alter local government boundaries.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C713725", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27218, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 421.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27219, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 422.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27220, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 423.0, "DisplayOrder": 423.0, "ID": 27220, "ParentID": 27219 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 426.0, "ContributionID": 713725, "EditedText": "In that case, can I ask the First Minister about the political meltdown of the Executive? Did John Rafferty jump or was he pushed? Was John Rafferty sacked for lying to the press and the public, was he sacked for a breach of the civil service code or was there some other reason why, after a week of dithering, the First Minister withdrew his support from Mr Rafferty? Does the First Minister accept personal responsibility for the chaos at the heart of his Administration?", "EditedTextHTML": "In that case, can I ask the First Minister about the political meltdown of the Executive? Did John Rafferty jump or was he pushed? Was John Rafferty sacked for lying to the press and the public, was he sacked for a breach of the civil service code or was there some other reason why, after a week of dithering, the First Minister withdrew his support from Mr Rafferty? Does the First Minister accept personal responsibility for the chaos at the heart of his Administration?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C713736", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27218, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 421.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27219, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 422.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27220, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 423.0, "DisplayOrder": 423.0, "ID": 27220, "ParentID": 27219 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "2. David McLetchie (Lothians) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 448.0, "ContributionID": 713736, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive when the First Minister last met the Secretary of State for Scotland and what issues were discussed. (S1O-793) Was the room filled with smoke at the time?", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive when the First Minister last met the Secretary of State for Scotland and what issues were discussed. (S1O-793) Was the room filled with smoke at the time?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C713737", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27218, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 421.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27219, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 422.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27220, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 423.0, "DisplayOrder": 423.0, "ID": 27220, "ParentID": 27219 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 450.0, "ContributionID": 713737, "EditedText": "I think that that was a witty reference to smoking bans, but I am not sure whether it is entirely relevant. I refer Mr McLetchie to the answer that I have just given Alex Salmond; I cannot help him further.", "EditedTextHTML": "I think that that was a witty reference to smoking bans, but I am not sure whether it is entirely relevant. I refer Mr McLetchie to the answer that I have just given Alex Salmond; I cannot help him further.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C713741", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27218, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 421.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27219, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 422.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27220, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 423.0, "DisplayOrder": 423.0, "ID": 27220, "ParentID": 27219 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 458.0, "ContributionID": 713741, "EditedText": "This happened this morning. Clearly there will be discussions about housekeeping matters and tidying up. We have been dealing with a human problem, which I greatly regret. Anyone who knows the circumstances and the people involved will know that this has been peculiarly difficult for me. I submit that it is unlikely that I took this action on a whim. I pursed it with reluctance, but with great care.", "EditedTextHTML": "This happened this morning. Clearly there will be discussions about housekeeping matters and tidying up. We have been dealing with a human problem, which I greatly regret. Anyone who knows the circumstances and the people involved will know that this has been peculiarly difficult for me. I submit that it is unlikely that I took this action on a whim. I pursed it with reluctance, but with great care.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C713750", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27218, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 421.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27219, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 422.0, "QuestionHeading": "Public Services", "QuestionHeadingID": 27221, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 476.0, "DisplayOrder": 476.0, "ID": 27221, "ParentID": 27219 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "3. Andrew Wilson (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 477.0, "ContributionID": 713750, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what assessment it has made of the impact of the \"Barnett squeeze\" on the resources available for public services in Scotland. (S1O-805)", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what assessment it has made of the impact of the \"Barnett squeeze\" on the resources available for public services in Scotland. (S1O-805)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C713758", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27218, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 421.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27219, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 422.0, "QuestionHeading": "Public Services", "QuestionHeadingID": 27221, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 476.0, "DisplayOrder": 476.0, "ID": 27221, "ParentID": 27219 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Richard Simpson (Ochil) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 493.0, "ContributionID": 713758, "EditedText": "Will the Minister for Finance give a rough estimate of the additional expenditure that would be involved in implementing the promises already made by the SNP, over and above the fact that the Scottish block budget is 18 per cent higher than the average budget for English regions?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the Minister for Finance give a rough estimate of the additional expenditure that would be involved in implementing the promises already made by the SNP, over and above the fact that the Scottish block budget is 18 per cent higher than the average budget for English regions?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C713761", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27218, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 421.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27219, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 422.0, "QuestionHeading": "Public Services", "QuestionHeadingID": 27221, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 476.0, "DisplayOrder": 476.0, "ID": 27221, "ParentID": 27219 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 499.0, "ContributionID": 713761, "EditedText": "Mr Gorrie asked me the same question yesterday. Discussions are constantly taking place between departments here in Scotland and at UK level on overall spending and on the expenditure that is appropriate in any given area; those discussions will continue. I must stress, as I have done on a number of occasions since June, that this Parliament must ensure that the money that we spend—some £17 billion—is spent in the best possible way on the services that we provide. I do not believe that constant comparisons, to which this question time has occasionally stooped, between expenditure in Scotland and in England are the best way forward for this Parliament. We were elected to make best use of the money that we have. If we do that, we will be serving Scotland well.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Gorrie asked me the same question yesterday. Discussions are constantly taking place between departments here in Scotland and at UK level on overall spending and on the expenditure that is appropriate in any given area; those discussions will continue. I must stress, as I have done on a number of occasions since June, that this Parliament must ensure that the money that we spend—some £17 billion—is spent in the best possible way on the services that we provide. I do not believe that constant comparisons, to which this question time has occasionally stooped, between expenditure in Scotland and in England are the best way forward for this Parliament. We were elected to make best use of the money that we have. If we do that, we will be serving Scotland well.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C713762", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27218, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 421.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27219, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 422.0, "QuestionHeading": "Public Services", "QuestionHeadingID": 27221, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 476.0, "DisplayOrder": 476.0, "ID": 27221, "ParentID": 27219 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr David Davidson (North-East Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 501.0, "ContributionID": 713762, "EditedText": "As he is in expansive mood today, will the minister kindly tell the chamber why, week after week, he insists on talking in cash terms and not in real terms, so making his spending look important?", "EditedTextHTML": "As he is in expansive mood today, will the minister kindly tell the chamber why, week after week, he insists on talking in cash terms and not in real terms, so making his spending look important?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C713763", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27218, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 421.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27219, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 422.0, "QuestionHeading": "Public Services", "QuestionHeadingID": 27221, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 476.0, "DisplayOrder": 476.0, "ID": 27221, "ParentID": 27219 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 503.0, "ContributionID": 713763, "EditedText": "If Mr Davidson listened occasionally, he would have heard that, in my earlier answer to Mr Wilson's question, I said that, by the end of the comprehensive spending review, real-terms spending in Scotland and in the rest of the UK will be significantly higher than it was at the very highest point of spending under the Conservative Government in 1994-95. That is in real terms—real real terms—which is why it will count more.", "EditedTextHTML": "If Mr Davidson listened occasionally, he would have heard that, in my earlier answer to Mr Wilson's question, I said that, by the end of the comprehensive spending review, real-terms spending in Scotland and in the rest of the UK will be significantly higher than it was at the very highest point of spending under the Conservative Government in 1994-95. That is in real terms—real real terms—which is why it will count more.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713766", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27218, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 421.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27219, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 422.0, "QuestionHeading": "Public Services", "QuestionHeadingID": 27221, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 476.0, "DisplayOrder": 476.0, "ID": 27221, "ParentID": 27219 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 509.0, "ContributionID": 713766, "EditedText": "Hang on, Mr Gallie. Quite courteously, you gave me notice of this but, before you go any further, I have to say that it is not a point of order. You are arguing about the content of a ministerial answer; I am afraid that you will have to take that up with the minister.", "EditedTextHTML": "Hang on, Mr Gallie. Quite courteously, you gave me notice of this but, before you go any further, I have to say that it is not a point of order. You are arguing about the

content of a ministerial answer; I am afraid that you will have to take that up with the minister.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713767", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27222, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 511.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 511.0, "ID": 27222, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 512.0, "ContributionID": 713767, "EditedText": "Resumed debate.", "EditedTextHTML": "Resumed debate.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713800", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27224, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 596.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 596.0, "ID": 27224, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 598.0, "ContributionID": 713800, "EditedText": "The first question is, that amendment S1M-354.1, in the name of Mr Tommy Sheridan, which seeks to amend motion S1M-354, in the name of Murray Tosh, on the Procedures Committee report, be agreed to. Are we agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "The first question is, that amendment S1M-354.1, in the name of Mr Tommy Sheridan, which seeks to amend motion S1M-354, in the name of Murray Tosh, on the Procedures Committee report, be agreed to. Are we agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713811", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27224, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 596.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 596.0, "ID": 27224, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 618.0, "ContributionID": 713811, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1826E199P351C713773", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27222, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 511.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 511.0, "ID": 27222, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Smith, Margaret", "ID": 1826, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Smith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Margaret Smith (Edinburgh West) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 527.0, "ContributionID": 713773, "EditedText": "I welcome the bill, which is much anticipated and long overdue, and will address gaps in the legal position regarding medical treatment and the financial affairs of up to 100,000 adults with incapacity. The chamber should extend thanks to the many individuals and organisations that have campaigned for the bill and made comment on it to all of us, as well as the significant contribution made by the Scottish Law Commission. As the secondary committee, the Health and Community Care Committee, of which I am convener, had a very short period in which to make a contribution at stage 1, but while we raised certain points of concern, we are happy to accept the general principles. I am pleased that the Parliamentary Bureau and the Executive have acknowledged the problems with timetabling. Suspension of elements of standing orders and discussions with all relevant conveners means that in future no committee should find itself in the same position with regard to the legislative process. I thank committee members, particularly our reporter, Ben Wallace, for their diligent work under great pressure of time. I also thank the Justice and Home Affairs Committee for its considerable work so far, including its attention to many of the medical issues that have been raised. I look forward to working with it again at stage 2. Given the lack of notice and time at stage 1, it is clear that the Health and Community Care Committee will want to consider the bill in some depth at stage 2, particularly as the majority of areas of concern are medical. Many of the key issues that were raised with our committee have been taken up by the Executive, and I welcome Jim Wallace's statement this morning. It is clear that the Executive has listened and acted on many of the points of concern that have been raised. It remains to be seen what the response will be of those who raised their concerns about definition of treatment, withdrawal of treatment, duty of care and living wills. It is important that, for the purpose of the bill, incapacity is not seen as an all or nothing condition. Just because an individual is not capable of making one sort of decision does not mean that they cannot make any. Just because they cannot make a decision today does not mean that they cannot make a decision tomorrow. Adults must be given every assistance to make decisions for themselves where possible. I was glad to hear Jim Wallace's comment that people with a learning difficulty should not be viewed as being incapable—that was an area of great concern to the Health and Community Care Committee. Right from the start, the Executive has made it clear—I am pleased to hear the Executive reiterate it today—that the bill is not a euthanasia bill, either by the front or the back door. Many organisations have expressed reservations and concerns that section 44, by classifying \"ventilation, nutrition and hydration by artificial means\"as medical treatment, allows for the possibility that guardians—some with conflicts of interest and no statutory duty of care—would advocate withdrawal or withholding of treatment as being of benefit to the patient. That spectre loomed large for many as a result of the bill. It is to be hoped that the minister's statements and the Executive's amendments to define medical treatment more positively and more broadly will go some way to alleviating those concerns. However, I feel that Roseanna Cunningham and Mary Scanlon had a point when they said that there is a requirement in section 1(2) that interventions must benefit the person with incapacity, but that there is no corresponding requirement that a decision not to intervene must benefit them. Intervention in section 1 could be spelled out in terms of acts of omission as well as positive acts of treatment. We know what the Executive's intention is in this bill—let us make it as watertight as possible. Organisations such as Alzheimer Scotland have raised the issue of research with the Health and Community Care Committee. I welcome the comments that have been made to broaden that out to be of more general benefit than only to the individual. It is clear that there are still outstanding issues in terms of the primacy of opinions when people have to go to court; we are moving in the right direction, based on the amendments outlined to us today. We need to take into account some of the British Medical Association's comments about advance directives to the Justice and Home Affairs Committee. Generally speaking, we all welcome the bill. I welcome the Executive's comments and the amendments it has announced today.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the bill, which is much anticipated and long overdue, and will address gaps in the legal position regarding medical treatment and the financial affairs of up to 100,000 adults with incapacity. The chamber should extend thanks to the many individuals and organisations that have campaigned for the bill and made comment on it to all of us, as well as the significant contribution made by the Scottish Law Commission.

As the secondary committee, the Health and Community Care Committee, of which I am convener, had a very short period in which to make a contribution at stage 1, but while we raised certain points of concern, we are happy to accept the general principles. I am pleased that the Parliamentary Bureau and the Executive have acknowledged the problems with timetabling. Suspension of elements of standing orders and discussions with all relevant conveners means that in future no committee should find itself in the same position with regard to the legislative process.

I thank committee members, particularly our reporter, Ben Wallace, for their diligent work under great pressure of time. I also thank the Justice and Home Affairs Committee for its considerable work so far, including its attention to many of the medical issues that have been raised. I look forward to working with it again at stage 2. Given the lack of notice and time at stage 1, it is clear that the Health and Community Care Committee will want to consider the bill in some depth at stage 2, particularly as the majority of areas of concern are medical.

Many of the key issues that were raised with our committee have been taken up by the Executive, and I welcome Jim Wallace's statement this morning. It is clear that the Executive has listened and acted on many of the points of concern that have been raised. It remains to be seen what the response will be of those who raised their concerns about definition of treatment, withdrawal of treatment, duty of care and living wills.

It is important that, for the purpose of the bill, incapacity is not seen as an all or nothing condition. Just because an individual is not capable of making one sort of decision does not mean that they cannot make any. Just because they cannot make a decision today does not mean that they cannot make a decision tomorrow. Adults must be given every assistance to make decisions for themselves where possible. I was glad to hear Jim Wallace's comment that people with a learning difficulty should not be viewed as being

incapable—that was an area of great concern to the Health and Community Care Committee.

Right from the start, the Executive has made it clear—I am pleased to hear the Executive reiterate it today—that the bill is not a euthanasia bill, either by the front or the back door. Many organisations have expressed reservations and concerns that section 44, by classifying

\"ventilation, nutrition and hydration by artificial means\"

as medical treatment, allows for the possibility that guardians—some with conflicts of interest and no statutory duty of care—would advocate withdrawal or withholding of treatment as being of benefit to the patient. That spectre loomed large for many as a result of the bill. It is to be hoped that the minister's statements and the Executive's amendments to define medical treatment more positively and more broadly will go some way to alleviating those concerns.

However, I feel that Roseanna Cunningham and Mary Scanlon had a point when they said that there is a requirement in section 1(2) that interventions must benefit the person with incapacity, but that there is no corresponding requirement that a decision not to intervene must benefit them. Intervention in section 1 could be spelled out in terms of acts of omission as well as positive acts of treatment. We know what the Executive's intention is in this bill—let us make it as watertight as possible.

Organisations such as Alzheimer Scotland have raised the issue of research with the Health and Community Care Committee. I welcome the comments that have been made to broaden that out to be of more general benefit than only to the individual. It is clear that there are still outstanding issues in terms of the primacy of opinions when people have to go to court; we are moving in the right direction, based on the amendments outlined to us today. We need to take into account some of the British Medical Association's comments about advance directives to the Justice and Home Affairs Committee.

Generally speaking, we all welcome the bill. I welcome the Executive's comments and the amendments it has announced today.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1876E194P490C713775", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27222, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 511.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 511.0, "ID": 27222, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Marwick, Tricia", "ID": 1876, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tricia Marwick", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tricia Marwick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 533.0, "ContributionID": 713775, "EditedText": "I want to concentrate on two areas of the bill that have been the most contentious: the inclusion of hydration, nutrition and nursing care as medical treatment and the role of proxies in deciding whether medical treatment can be withdrawn. I welcome the minister's opening statement that those areas will be subject to amendment. However, we will need time to consider whether the amendments deal with the concerns that have been raised or whether new amendments will be necessary. The minister has made it clear that the bill will not change the current position—euthanasia is illegal. The problem is that there are widely differing interpretations of the current law, or rather ways in which it is carried out in practice. Following the Law hospital case, the Lord Advocate stated that he would not authorise prosecutions of qualified medical practitioners who, acting in good faith and with the authority of the Court of Session, withdraw life-sustaining treatment from a patient in a persistent vegetative state, which results in the patient's death. In its evidence to the Justice and Home Affairs Committee, the British Medical Association contended that it is not necessary to go to court to get permission for cessation of treatment for every case of PVS. It further said that it believes that the law is more flexible in Scotland than in England. It said that the Executive's interpretation—and, by definition, Lord Hardie's statement—would cause it concern. It also said that it hopes that the general principle of withdrawing and withholding treatment from a wider group of patients who are similarly incapacitated will operate with the same flexibility. It is against that background that alarm has been raised about the intentions behind the bill and what will happen in practice. The inclusion of nutrition, hydration and ventilation as medical treatments, with the power of proxies to deny medical treatment, has led a number of witnesses to suggest that the bill would allow euthanasia. Professor Sheila McLean said that the bill gives positive powers to treat people who are incapable and that the concerns of other witnesses should be assuaged because of that. She drew attention particularly to the fact that everything that is done under legislation should be governed by the general principles set out in part 1. I believe that the Executive, ministers and many organisations genuinely wish to modernise the law and to bring benefit to perhaps 100,000 people in Scotland. I also believe that there is no intention on the part of ministers to make euthanasia possible. However, many witnesses have expressed sincerely their view that the law is confused. The Executive has a responsibility to reflect on and to allay all such concerns. This Parliament has a responsibility to produce legislation that is unambiguous. While I welcome the minister's statement today, we need to wait until we see the amendments that will be lodged. I would like to hear that the concerns of the people who made representations to the committees have been assuaged by those amendments. These issues will continue to be highlighted at the next stage of the bill. I hope that the minister will reflect on the evidence that has been given and accept that further changes may be needed to allay the genuinely held concerns of many people.", "EditedTextHTML": "I want to concentrate on two areas of the bill that have been the most contentious: the inclusion of hydration, nutrition and nursing care as medical treatment and the role of proxies in deciding whether medical treatment can be withdrawn. I welcome the minister's opening statement that those areas will be subject to amendment. However, we will need time to consider whether the amendments deal with the concerns that have been raised or whether new amendments will be necessary.

The minister has made it clear that the bill will not change the current position—euthanasia is illegal. The problem is that there are widely differing interpretations of the current law, or rather ways in which it is carried out in practice. Following the Law hospital case, the Lord Advocate stated that he would not authorise prosecutions of qualified medical practitioners who, acting in good faith and with the authority of the Court of Session, withdraw life-sustaining treatment from a patient in a persistent vegetative state, which results in the patient's death.

In its evidence to the Justice and Home Affairs Committee, the British Medical Association contended that it is not necessary to go to court to get permission for cessation of treatment for every case of PVS. It further said that it believes that the law is more flexible in Scotland than in England. It said that the Executive's interpretation—and, by definition, Lord Hardie's statement—would cause it concern. It also said that it hopes that the general principle of withdrawing and withholding treatment from a wider group of patients who are similarly incapacitated will operate with the same flexibility.

It is against that background that alarm has been raised about the intentions behind the bill and what will happen in practice. The inclusion of nutrition, hydration and ventilation as medical treatments, with the power of proxies to deny medical treatment, has led a number of witnesses to suggest that the bill would allow euthanasia.

Professor Sheila McLean said that the bill gives positive powers to treat people who are incapable and that the concerns of other witnesses should be assuaged because of that. She drew attention particularly to the fact that everything that is done under legislation should be governed by the general principles set out in part 1.

I believe that the Executive, ministers and many organisations genuinely wish to modernise the law and to bring benefit to perhaps 100,000 people in Scotland. I also believe that there is no intention on the part of ministers to make euthanasia possible. However, many witnesses have expressed sincerely their view that the law is confused. The Executive has a responsibility to reflect on and to allay all such concerns. This Parliament has a responsibility to produce legislation that is unambiguous. While I welcome the minister's statement today, we need to wait until we see the amendments that will be lodged. I would like to hear that the concerns of the people who made representations to the committees have been assuaged by those amendments.

These issues will continue to be highlighted at the next stage of the bill. I hope that the minister will reflect on the evidence that has been given and accept that further changes may be needed to allay the genuinely held concerns of many people.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713804", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27224, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 596.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 596.0, "ID": 27224, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 606.0, "ContributionID": 713804, "EditedText": "There will be a division.", "EditedTextHTML": "There will be a division.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2122E6P19C713777", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27222, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 511.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 511.0, "ID": 27222, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay", "ID": 2122, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lyndsay McIntosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Lyndsay McIntosh (Central Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 539.0, "ContributionID": 713777, "EditedText": "At the outset, I want to reaffirm my party's support for the bill that the Scottish Executive has placed before us. I also pay tribute to the work of the Justice and Home Affairs Committee, its convener and its clerks. As Roseanna Cunningham said this morning, the committee has been extremely hard-working and has considered an enormous amount of material from the Executive and other sources—some of it self- inflicted—with great diligence and good humour. Having broadly welcomed the bill, I should add that the Conservatives also welcome the amendments that the minister has said he is prepared to make. Colleagues from all parties have signalled their concerns about a number of areas and I am relieved that changes will be incorporated to include same-sex partners in decision making. It was abhorrent to me that a partner of very long standing should be excluded from any part of the decision-making process, simply because they were of the same sex. The area that is undoubtedly of greatest concern—and on which colleagues across political divides will have had most representations—is artificial hydration, nutrition and ventilation. The debate will go beyond the doors of this chamber between individuals and organisations as diverse as the Society for the Protection of Unborn Children, the Scottish Council on Human Bioethics, the British Medical Association, the Royal College of Nursing and the Law Society of Scotland. Those organisations represent professions as diverse as doctors, nurses, a host of other medical practitioners and, importantly, lawyers. Such individuals have a shared interest in that they will be left to police and manage the legislation practically and morally once it is passed. It is no coincidence that they are the only people who are highlighting the euthanasia issue time and time again. Most often, they—along with religious confidants—help us to deal with the emotional consequences of family bereavement. Who are we to deny those various correspondents the right to air their concerns in a fitting and proper manner? The Scottish Executive has set its face against passive euthanasia; I hope that it will not be so set in its mind about voluntary euthanasia, which is a topic that has been raised by many of the people who e-mail me and other correspondents. Duty of care, advance statements and medical research are other areas of concern that will come within the scope of possible amendments. Without the Millan committee report to guide us, I felt that considering a bill with dubious definitions and medical treatments was putting the cart before the horse. I am therefore happy with the minister's reassurance that the definitions will be tightened. As time is short and many other members wish to speak, I want, finally, to comment on section 48, entitled \"Authority for research\". I was delighted when Mr Hide, currently in Kuala Lumpur, gave his evidence on the changes and improvements in treatment that have developed thanks to research. My nephew was recently the victim of a serious cycle accident, which resulted in severe head trauma. Without Mr Hide and the knowledge gained from research, my nephew may not have lived. Please, therefore, do not curtail too many of the researchers' activities.", "EditedTextHTML": "At the outset, I want to reaffirm my party's support for the bill that the Scottish Executive has placed before us. I also pay tribute to the work of the Justice and Home Affairs Committee, its convener and its clerks. As Roseanna Cunningham said this morning, the committee has been extremely hard-working and has considered an enormous amount of material from the Executive and other sources—some of it self- inflicted—with great diligence and good humour.

Having broadly welcomed the bill, I should add that the Conservatives also welcome the amendments that the minister has said he is prepared to make. Colleagues from all parties have signalled their concerns about a number of areas and I am relieved that changes will be incorporated to include same-sex partners in decision making. It was abhorrent to me that a partner of very long standing should be excluded from any part of the decision-making process, simply because they were of the same sex.

The area that is undoubtedly of greatest concern—and on which colleagues across political divides will have had most representations—is artificial hydration, nutrition and ventilation. The debate will go beyond the doors of this chamber between individuals and organisations as diverse as the Society for the Protection of Unborn Children, the Scottish Council on Human Bioethics, the British Medical Association, the Royal College of Nursing and the Law Society of Scotland.

Those organisations represent professions as diverse as doctors, nurses, a host of other medical practitioners and, importantly, lawyers. Such individuals have a shared interest in that they will be left to police and manage the legislation practically and morally once it is passed. It is no coincidence that they are the only people who are highlighting the euthanasia issue time and time again. Most often, they—along with religious confidants—help us to deal with the emotional consequences of family bereavement.

Who are we to deny those various correspondents the right to air their concerns in a fitting and proper manner? The Scottish Executive has set its face against passive euthanasia; I hope that it will not be so set in its mind about voluntary euthanasia, which is a topic that has been raised by many of the people who e-mail me and other correspondents.

Duty of care, advance statements and medical research are other areas of concern that will come within the scope of possible amendments. Without the Millan committee report to guide us, I felt that considering a bill with dubious definitions and medical treatments was putting the cart before the horse. I am therefore happy with the minister's reassurance that the definitions will be tightened.

As time is short and many other members wish to speak, I want, finally, to comment on section 48, entitled \"Authority for research\". I was delighted

when Mr Hide, currently in Kuala Lumpur, gave his evidence on the changes and improvements in treatment that have developed thanks to research. My nephew was recently the victim of a serious cycle accident, which resulted in severe head trauma. Without Mr Hide and the knowledge gained from research, my nephew may not have lived. Please, therefore, do not curtail too many of the researchers' activities.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2068E171P304C713780", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27222, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 511.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 511.0, "ID": 27222, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stone, Jamie", "ID": 2068, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie Stone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 548.0, "ContributionID": 713780, "EditedText": "What a pity the press gallery is empty. I suppose that that tells us about politics and the story. The good news is that a large bus- full of people came down from the Highlands to hear today's debate. The fly in the ointment is that they were all members of the Conservative party— you win some, you lose some. I particularly enjoyed what Lyndsay McIntosh said. Tricia Marwick and Malcolm Chisholm also made strong contributions. I am coming to the debate as a layman, who has had no involvement with the bill thus far. When we read about the bill and about old people, people with dementia and so on, it is easy to think that lightning will not strike us. I will share with members the fact that lightning did strike my family. In January, my wife was diagnosed as having a brain tumour. It was a very traumatic, frightening period of her life. The good news is that she is much recovered and is coming on. I and my family can speak from first-hand experience of how such things can come at anyone: the bill affects us all. I have personally experienced the lack of co-ordination—albeit with the best of intentions— among dedicated health professionals who are absolutely devoted to their jobs. However, because their roles were sometimes not brought together, one could see the gaps. As a spouse and a parent, I found that pretty difficult. I had to get more involved than perhaps I should have been. I am quite proud to be associated in a small way with the bill. It ties up a lot of loose ends. However, I plead with the minister to ensure that, as the bill progresses, the maximum consultation takes place with health professionals from residential homes, social work departments, hospitals and so on. As I said, I am a layman—I cannot tell what is right or wrong with the bill, but health professionals can. I am sure that Mr Wallace will take that on board. I do not know how many members read a poisonous piece in the Daily Mail of 30 November by a Mr Heathcoat-Amory—or amoral, or whatever his name is. He spent quite a few column inches rubbishing this Parliament and every one of us from all parties. I assure members that he used language stronger than \"numpties\". I am proud to be involved in a piece of legislation such as the bill. It goes to show what a lot of tripe some of our critics talk about this Parliament. If we did not have a Scottish Parliament and if we did not have devolution, we would find it much more difficult to introduce the bill. I commend it to the chamber.", "EditedTextHTML": "What a pity the press gallery is empty. I suppose that that tells us about politics and the story. The good news is that a large bus- full of people came down from the Highlands to hear today's debate. The fly in the ointment is that they were all members of the Conservative party— you win some, you lose some.

I particularly enjoyed what Lyndsay McIntosh said. Tricia Marwick and Malcolm Chisholm also made strong contributions. I am coming to the debate as a layman, who has had no involvement with the bill thus far. When we read about the bill and about old people, people with dementia and so on, it is easy to think that lightning will not strike us.

I will share with members the fact that lightning did strike my family. In January, my wife was diagnosed as having a brain tumour. It was a very traumatic, frightening period of her life. The good news is that she is much recovered and is coming

on. I and my family can speak from first-hand experience of how such things can come at anyone: the bill affects us all.

I have personally experienced the lack of co-ordination—albeit with the best of intentions— among dedicated health professionals who are absolutely devoted to their jobs. However, because their roles were sometimes not brought together, one could see the gaps. As a spouse and a parent, I found that pretty difficult. I had to get more involved than perhaps I should have been.

I am quite proud to be associated in a small way with the bill. It ties up a lot of loose ends. However, I plead with the minister to ensure that, as the bill progresses, the maximum consultation takes place with health professionals from residential homes, social work departments, hospitals and so on. As I said, I am a layman—I cannot tell what is right or wrong with the bill, but health professionals can. I am sure that Mr Wallace will take that on board.

I do not know how many members read a poisonous piece in the Daily Mail of 30 November by a Mr Heathcoat-Amory—or amoral, or whatever his name is. He spent quite a few column inches rubbishing this Parliament and every one of us from all parties. I assure members that he used language stronger than \"numpties\".

I am proud to be involved in a piece of legislation such as the bill. It goes to show what a lot of tripe some of our critics talk about this Parliament. If we did not have a Scottish Parliament and if we did not have devolution, we would find it much more difficult to introduce the bill. I commend it to the chamber.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C713787", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27222, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 511.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 511.0, "ID": 27222, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 567.0, "ContributionID": 713787, "EditedText": "Roseanna is always cheering me up. What would really cheer me and every member up would be for the bill to go through as quickly as possible, as its aims are full of merit and it will improve the lot of many people. Of course I have concerns about the bill, as everyone else does. I will not list them because of time constraints. This debate has been particularly eloquent. Many representations have been made and much detail has been picked up by members from all parties. Issues such as intervention cause me some concern. It is easy to identify positive intervention, but it is more difficult to identify what constitutes negative intervention. Perhaps such issues will be taken on board at stage 2. Everybody will welcome the appointment of the public guardian. On welfare attorneys, as far as I am aware, the bill does not allow for the fact that people might already be acting as advocate for individuals. Perhaps registration is needed of those who are currently regarded as attorneys. The ending—in effect—of the curator bonis system will be welcomed across the board. The system could be excessively expensive and many of the people who were being looked after could ill afford it. The arguments about medical treatment could have been eased, although Malcolm Chisholm raised the valid point again about removing the contentious words \"ventilation, nutrition and hydration\" from the bill. I welcome the minister's amendments. They go some way to satisfying many of the representations that we have had, but I take on board Malcolm Chisholm's warning that we must ensure that the wishes of people who care and have given their lives to looking after others are not undermined. Finally, on an issue on which everybody expects me to be slightly contentious—same-sex partners—I will say that it would be nonsense to eliminate the views of people who had been in a long-standing and loving same-sex relationship, or even just a friendly relationship irrespective of sexual involvement. I make no apology for saying that, as I always argue that loving relationships, or partnerships that are based on friendship, should be recognised. Therefore, I welcome the minister's comments on same-sex partners or friends.", "EditedTextHTML": "Roseanna is always cheering me up. What would really cheer me and every member up would be for the bill to go through as quickly as possible, as its aims are full of merit and it will improve the lot of many people.

Of course I have concerns about the bill, as everyone else does. I will not list them because of time constraints. This debate has been particularly eloquent. Many representations have been made and much detail has been picked up by members from all parties. Issues such as intervention cause me some concern. It is easy to identify positive intervention, but it is more difficult to identify what constitutes negative intervention. Perhaps such issues will be taken on board at stage 2.

Everybody will welcome the appointment of the public guardian. On welfare attorneys, as far as I am aware, the bill does not allow for the fact that people might already be acting as advocate for individuals. Perhaps registration is needed of those who are currently regarded as attorneys.

The ending—in effect—of the curator bonis system will be welcomed across the board. The system could be excessively expensive and many of the people who were being looked after could ill afford it.

The arguments about medical treatment could have been eased, although Malcolm Chisholm raised the valid point again about removing the contentious words \"ventilation, nutrition and hydration\" from the bill.

I welcome the minister's amendments. They go some way to satisfying many of the representations that we have had, but I take on board Malcolm Chisholm's warning that we must ensure that the wishes of people who care and have given their lives to looking after others are not undermined.

Finally, on an issue on which everybody expects me to be slightly contentious—same-sex partners—I will say that it would be nonsense to eliminate the views of people who had been in a long-standing and loving same-sex relationship, or even just a friendly relationship irrespective of sexual involvement. I make no apology for saying that, as I always argue that loving relationships, or partnerships that are based on friendship, should be recognised. Therefore, I welcome the minister's comments on same-sex partners or friends.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C713789", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27222, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 511.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 511.0, "ID": 27222, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 573.0, "ContributionID": 713789, "EditedText": "It gives me great pleasure to close this debate on behalf of the Executive, and to welcome warmly and enthusiastically the new politics that has broken out across the chamber. I am struck by the extent to which I agree with almost every word that Phil Gallie uttered. I am worried that that could become a habit. Laughter. Much more intriguing was the love-in between Phil Gallie and Roseanna Cunningham. We will watch for developments with great interest. The extent to which members have been able and willing to come together across party political divisions and discuss this issue is testament to the commitment that people of all parties have to ensuring that we take positive, constructive steps on this matter. As a number of members have said, that shows the difference that having a Scottish Parliament can make. It has enabled us to introduce in the first year of our existence legislation that many people have waited a long time for. We should not lose sight of the significance of that fact. Like others, I pay tribute to a number of people, in particular the Justice and Home Affairs Committee for the work that it did. Roseanna Cunningham effectively and eloquently set out much of that work earlier today. I pay tribute also to the contributions made by the Health and Community Care Committee and the Subordinate Legislation Committee. In addition, I thank the wide range of organisations that have contributed to the debate—not just since we began to consider the matter formally in Parliament, but in the months and years leading up to that time—which has enabled us to reach a consensus on the direction we wish to take. I commend also Eric Clarke, MP for Midlothian— who was in the chamber earlier—whose recent amendment in Westminster closed a loophole that will provide an interim arrangement for the management of finances of a number of people who will be protected by our own legislation. The fact that so many people have contributed to getting to this stage is an excellent basis on which we can move forward. However, we recognise that it is important that we get the detail of the legislation right. Many people have made the point that this is a stage 1 debate, but in the weeks and months ahead, in this chamber and, crucially, in the Justice and Home Affairs Committee at its twice-weekly meetings, there will be a need for careful scrutiny. We welcome that. At the risk of agreeing with Phil Gallie twice in one day, the principal aim of this bill is to make things better for persons with incapacity. I do not mind who we work with, or who we sit down and have discussions with, to ensure that we do that. It was interesting that one or two speakers talked about concessions on the part of the Executive in relation to the amendments that we propose to make. I do not see those amendments as concessions. They indicate exactly what we are about—listening to what people say to us and ensuring that we improve the process and the legislation as we go along. I hope that the amendments are positive evidence of our willingness to listen to those who raise points with us. A number of points of procedure were made about the legislation, which I know are more matters for the Presiding Officer to take on board. I noted the point that Fiona Hyslop made about the presentation of amendments. We tried, through Jim Wallace's introduction of those amendments in his opening speech, to set out clearly at the beginning of this debate the direction in which we are moving. We are open to suggestions as to how that process can be developed.", "EditedTextHTML": "It gives me great pleasure to close this debate on behalf of the Executive, and to welcome warmly and enthusiastically the new politics that has broken out across the chamber. I am struck by the extent to which I agree with almost every word that Phil Gallie uttered. I am worried that that could become a habit. [Laughter.] Much more intriguing was the love-in between Phil Gallie and Roseanna Cunningham. We will watch for developments with great interest.

The extent to which members have been able and willing to come together across party political divisions and discuss this issue is testament to the commitment that people of all parties have to ensuring that we take positive, constructive steps on this matter. As a number of members have said, that shows the difference that having a Scottish Parliament can make. It has enabled us to introduce in the first year of our existence legislation that many people have waited a long time for. We should not lose sight of the significance of that fact.

Like others, I pay tribute to a number of people, in particular the Justice and Home Affairs Committee for the work that it did. Roseanna Cunningham effectively and eloquently set out much of that work earlier today. I pay tribute also to the contributions made by the Health and Community Care Committee and the Subordinate Legislation Committee.

In addition, I thank the wide range of organisations that have contributed to the debate—not just since we began to consider the matter formally in Parliament, but in the months and years leading up to that time—which has enabled us to reach a consensus on the direction we wish to take.

I commend also Eric Clarke, MP for Midlothian— who was in the chamber earlier—whose recent amendment in Westminster closed a loophole that will provide an interim arrangement for the management of finances of a number of people who will be protected by our own legislation.

The fact that so many people have contributed to getting to this stage is an excellent basis on which we can move forward. However, we recognise that it is important that we get the detail of the legislation right. Many people have made the point that this is a stage 1 debate, but in the weeks and months ahead, in this chamber and, crucially, in the Justice and Home Affairs Committee at its twice-weekly meetings, there will be a need for careful scrutiny. We welcome that.

At the risk of agreeing with Phil Gallie twice in one day, the principal aim of this bill is to make things better for persons with incapacity. I do not mind who we work with, or who we sit down and have discussions with, to ensure that we do that. It was interesting that one or two speakers talked about concessions on the part of the Executive in relation to the amendments that we propose to make. I do not see those amendments as concessions. They indicate exactly what we are about—listening to what people say to us and ensuring that we improve the process and the legislation as we go along. I hope that the amendments are positive evidence of our willingness to listen to those who raise points with us.

A number of points of procedure were made about the legislation, which I know are more matters for the Presiding Officer to take on board. I noted the point that Fiona Hyslop made about the presentation of amendments. We tried, through Jim Wallace's introduction of those amendments in his opening speech, to set out clearly at the beginning of this debate the direction in which we are moving. We are open to suggestions as to how that process can be developed.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C713791", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27222, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 511.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 511.0, "ID": 27222, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 577.0, "ContributionID": 713791, "EditedText": "Since I am agreeing with Mr Gallie today, I will give way.", "EditedTextHTML": "Since I am agreeing with Mr Gallie today, I will give way.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C713792", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27222, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 511.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 511.0, "ID": 27222, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 579.0, "ContributionID": 713792, "EditedText": "On the issue of amendments, Mr Jim Wallace suggested that there would be a second medical opinion, but Dr Simpson referred to team decisions being taken, which suggests that there could already be more than one opinion. Would the second medical opinion be seen as an independent one, separate from the team decisions being taken?", "EditedTextHTML": "On the issue of amendments, Mr Jim Wallace suggested that there would be a second medical opinion, but Dr Simpson referred to team decisions being taken, which suggests that there could already be more than one opinion. Would the second medical opinion be seen as an independent one, separate from the team decisions being taken?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713796", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill: Financial Resolution ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27223, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 583.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 583.0, "ID": 27223, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 588.0, "ContributionID": 713796, "EditedText": "It would help us fill in time before decision time if you read the motion out. We cannot move to decision time before 5 pm. Yesterday, a member, who shall remain nameless, failed to reach their desk in time, so I believe that it would be unfair to bring decision time forward.", "EditedTextHTML": "It would help us fill in time before decision time if you read the motion out. We cannot move to decision time before 5 pm. Yesterday, a member, who shall remain nameless, failed to reach their desk in time, so I believe that it would be unfair to bring decision time forward.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713805", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27224, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 596.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 596.0, "ID": 27224, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 608.0, "ContributionID": 713805, "EditedText": "FOR Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)AGAINST Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con) Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Johnston, Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)(LD)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con) ABSTENTIONS Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab) McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab) Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP) Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)

AGAINST

Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Johnston, Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)
(LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)

ABSTENTIONS

Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C713807", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27224, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 596.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 596.0, "ID": 27224, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan (Glasgow) (SSP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 611.0, "ContributionID": 713807, "EditedText": "Hear, hear. Your first result is fine, David.", "EditedTextHTML": "Hear, hear. Your first result is fine, David.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713810", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27224, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 596.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 596.0, "ID": 27224, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 616.0, "ContributionID": 713810, "EditedText": "The second question is, that motion S1M-354, in the name of Mr Murray Tosh, on the Procedures Committee report, be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "The second question is, that motion S1M-354, in the name of Mr Murray Tosh, on the Procedures Committee report, be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713823", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27224, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 596.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 596.0, "ID": 27224, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 634.0, "ContributionID": 713823, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C713829", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pollokshaws Sports Centre", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27225, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 636.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 636.0, "ID": 27225, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 644.0, "ContributionID": 713829, "EditedText": "Seven members have asked to speak, so the shorter the speeches—which should be under three minutes—the more members will be called.", "EditedTextHTML": "Seven members have asked to speak, so the shorter the speeches—which should be under three minutes—the more members will be called.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1814E135P516C713835", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pollokshaws Sports Centre", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27225, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 636.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 636.0, "ID": 27225, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Fabiani, Linda", "ID": 1814, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Linda Fabiani", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Linda Fabiani (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 661.0, "ContributionID": 713835, "EditedText": "It still is.", "EditedTextHTML": "It still is.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5919588+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1814E135P516C713839", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pollokshaws Sports Centre", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27225, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 636.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 636.0, "ID": 27225, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Fabiani, Linda", "ID": 1814, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Linda Fabiani", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Linda Fabiani (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 670.0, "ContributionID": 713839, "EditedText": "I would like to focus on one issue that has already been mentioned: the lack of consultation by Glasgow City Council. While council members insist that they have consulted widely, it is a fact that the local community council has had only one meeting with them. There has been neither a public meeting nor direct consultation with those who will be affected by the council's decision. That is despite a petition with 4,000 signatures and 600 letters sent directly to the council. Why has Glasgow City Council refused properly to consult the people of Pollokshaws? How can it justify to local people the fact that it is closing the only facility of its kind in the area? How can it justify the fact that, although it readily bandies about projected refurbishment costs, no actual assessment of what work needs done has taken place, let alone been costed? Glasgow City Council has refused properly to consult the people of Pollokshaws because those in control of the council have created a culture of arrogance—a belief that they know best and that their decisions are beyond reproach. Witness the complete lack of consultation with city tenants over the housing stock transfer. This is more of the same. Glasgow City Council should note that it does not necessarily know best. It should try listening to those most directly affected by the decisions that it takes. It could start by listening to the people of Pollokshaws and reverse the decision to close Pollokshaws sports centre.", "EditedTextHTML": "I would like to focus on one issue that has already been mentioned: the lack of consultation by Glasgow City Council. While council members insist that they have consulted widely, it is a fact that the local community council has had only one meeting with them. There has been neither a public meeting nor direct consultation with those who will be affected by the council's decision. That is despite a petition with 4,000 signatures and 600 letters sent directly to the council.

Why has Glasgow City Council refused properly to consult the people of Pollokshaws? How can it justify to local people the fact that it is closing the only facility of its kind in the area? How can it justify the fact that, although it readily bandies about projected refurbishment costs, no actual assessment of what work needs done has taken place, let alone been costed?

Glasgow City Council has refused properly to consult the people of Pollokshaws because those in control of the council have created a culture of arrogance—a belief that they know best and that their decisions are beyond reproach. Witness the complete lack of consultation with city tenants over the housing stock transfer. This is more of the same.

Glasgow City Council should note that it does not necessarily know best. It should try listening to those most directly affected by the decisions that it takes. It could start by listening to the people of Pollokshaws and reverse the decision to close Pollokshaws sports centre.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C713848", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pollokshaws Sports Centre", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27225, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 636.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 636.0, "ID": 27225, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 689.0, "ContributionID": 713848, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1862E99P179C713851", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pollokshaws Sports Centre", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27225, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 636.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 636.0, "ID": 27225, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Brankin, Rhona", "ID": 1862, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Midlothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Culture and Sport", "SpeakerName": "Rhona Brankin", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Rhona Brankin: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 695.0, "ContributionID": 713851, "EditedText": "It was estimated that keeping the facility open for another few years might require capital expenditure of up to £1 million. A total refurbishment that might require more than £2 million was not thought to be an effective investment. The conclusion drawn from that survey was that the facility was nearly at the end of its useful life. The impact of the closure must be balanced against the overall provision of facilities at Govanhill, Castlemilk, Pollok, Bellahouston and Gorbals, giving the south side of Glasgow some of the best provision in Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "It was estimated that keeping the facility open for another few years might require capital expenditure of up to £1 million. A total refurbishment that might require more than £2 million was not thought to be an effective investment. The conclusion drawn from that survey was that the facility was nearly at the end of its useful life.

The impact of the closure must be balanced against the overall provision of facilities at Govanhill, Castlemilk, Pollok, Bellahouston and Gorbals, giving the south side of Glasgow some of the best provision in Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1862E99P179C713855", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pollokshaws Sports Centre", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27225, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 636.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 636.0, "ID": 27225, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Brankin, Rhona", "ID": 1862, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Midlothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Culture and Sport", "SpeakerName": "Rhona Brankin", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Rhona Brankin: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 703.0, "ContributionID": 713855, "EditedText": "No thank you, Nicola.The review is being driven forward by five forums, two of which have a particular focus on this area: the facilities for sport and the sport and social inclusion forums. We recognise the link between sport and social inclusion. In partnership with sportscotland, the Scottish Executive is conducting research on the role that sport plays in regenerating deprived areas. The findings of that research will be published early next year and we hope that it will provide examples of good practice that can be disseminated to all relevant interests in this field. Sport in Scotland has made tremendous progress in recent years. Although we have a long way to go, participation rates are higher than 25 years ago, facilities are far more widespread and accessible, coaching is more widely available and is of a higher standard and the governing bodies of sport are more open and responsive. We continue to need to make progress in sport, but the Executive firmly supports the key role that sport plays in social inclusion.", "EditedTextHTML": "No thank you, Nicola.

The review is being driven forward by five forums, two of which have a particular focus on this area: the facilities for sport and the sport and social inclusion forums. We recognise the link between sport and social inclusion.

In partnership with sportscotland, the Scottish Executive is conducting research on the role that sport plays in regenerating deprived areas. The findings of that research will be published early next year and we hope that it will provide examples of good practice that can be disseminated to all relevant interests in this field.

Sport in Scotland has made tremendous progress in recent years. Although we have a long way to go, participation rates are higher than 25 years ago, facilities are far more widespread and accessible, coaching is more widely available and is of a higher standard and the governing bodies of sport are more open and responsive.

We continue to need to make progress in sport, but the Executive firmly supports the key role that sport plays in social inclusion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.6075814+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2133E222P520C713788", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27222, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 511.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 511.0, "ID": 27222, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Matheson, Michael", "ID": 2133, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Matheson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Matheson (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 570.0, "ContributionID": 713788, "EditedText": "I am aware that, as the last person to speak before the minister closes the debate, I am in acute danger of touching on some points that have already been made. I hope that you will forgive me, Presiding Officer, if I cover some territory that has already been covered. Given Phil Gallie's last remarks, I am not sure what influence Lyndsay McIntosh is having on his politics these days— Laughter.—but his comments are welcome none the less. It is clear that all parties support the general principles that underlie the bill. As several contributors to the debate have pointed out, moves to introduce a bill for adults with incapacity began in the 1980s and we should give credit to those who started that campaign. I congratulate the members of the Justice and Home Affairs Committee on their work, and I do not say that simply because I am Roseanna Cunningham's deputy. As this is the first time that a committee has had to take a bill through the legislative process, they should be congratulated on the way in which they have handled that task. It gives me some pleasure to be able to wind up this debate for the SNP, because I was the person who moved this issue as party policy at our national conference in Inverness two years ago. We recognised the growing campaign for the introduction of this measure, and it is good to see that the Executive has chosen to introduce this bill early in the Parliament. I would like to refer back to my own professional experience and to the disadvantages that result from the present legal system. Those disadvantages have to be dealt with not only by professionals who work with adults with incapacity, but by some of the most vulnerable members of our society. That problem has been mentioned by several speakers, including Jim Wallace and Scott Barrie, who referred to the freezing of joint bank accounts when one person in a couple develops dementia. In my area, one of the most common problems concerns young people with acquired brain injuries. Because of the legal difficulties, the relatives have found themselves struggling to deal not only with the trauma of a young member of the family having a head injury, but with that person's personal and financial affairs. Unfortunately, that is a problem that some people experience day in, day out, and that is why most people recognise the value of the bill.The burden that those legal difficulties create often falls upon the shoulders of a relative or carer who may have little understanding of the legal problems. Very often, those people have had to resort to seeking expensive legal advice to address those problems. Karen Whitefield made that point in her contribution this afternoon. In my experience, the relative or carer was often an elderly person who had to cope with the trauma of their child's condition and the legal problems associated with it. A couple of members have mentioned the fact that myths have built up around the bill. It is important to highlight the fact that this bill does not focus entirely on the issue of incapacity. That point was initially raised by Nora Radcliffe, who was taken somewhat by surprise when she was called to speak this morning. The bill seeks to empower individuals to make decisions on their own behalf where they have the capacity to do so. I fear that there is a growing impression that those who have learning difficulties, mental illness or a head injury will somehow automatically fall under the provisions of the bill. The bill is not about removing rights; it is about providing greater safeguards for individuals in managing their affairs. We must provide protection where it is required. I want to raise a point that has not been mentioned in the debate so far. From my discussions with organisations with a particular interest in the bill, it has become clear that considerable misunderstandings exist about the bill. Organisations such as the Scottish Association for Mental Health and ENABLE, to mention only two, find themselves dealing every day with people who may benefit from the bill's provisions. They report that there is a clear lack of understanding amongst local organisations about the legal technicalities that may arise from the bill. I believe that information needs to be provided on that specific area. I find a clear willingness on the part of organisations with an interest in the client groups who may be affected by the bill to work with the Executive to produce an information guide. The guide could be distributed to local organisations to disseminate information to field workers, who may be someone's first port of call for advice on the issue. Concerns exist that some of the people who may get the greatest benefit and security from the the bill may not receive it because of a lack of information. When the bill has passed through Parliament, I ask the Executive to consider the possibility of producing a public information leaflet that can be disseminated to local organisations to help them pass on the valuable information that will be required. Several members have mentioned ECT and neurosurgery for mental disorder, an area where there appears to be some ambiguity over the impact of the bill. Jim Wallace said in his opening speech that he is trying to clarify that area, but there is some confusion about how the bill will apply to a person who is either an informal or formal patient, who may have incapacity and who ends up in hospital. A distinction exists on the type of treatment that that person can be provided with in hospital. I hope to see that addressed at stage 2, although I recognise that the matter may cross over to the Millan committee's considerations. It is clear from the debate that the major area of controversy centres on the medical areas in the bill. That was also clear from the evidence that was given to the Justice and Home Affairs Committee. I do not intend today to rehearse all the concerns that have been raised, but Roseanna Cunningham highlighted in her opening speech the need to address that subject at stage 2. The definition of intervention needs to be clarified. I ask that the Executive give serious consideration at stage 2 to Roseanna's point about the inclusion of such a definition in the bill. Tricia Marwick raised a number of important points on nutrition and hydration, in particular with regard to the BMA's evidence. Gordon Jackson made the point that the words \"ventilation, nutrition and hydration\" in section 44(2)(b) of the bill have created fear and uncertainty. I welcome the Executive's commitment to amend that section, but I must add that the jury is out—until we see the Executive's amendment—on whether the clarification will be sufficient. The concerns on this part of the bill focus primarily on the possibility of back-door euthanasia. As several members have pointed out, the Executive has no intention of providing for that, but it will have the opportunity, at stage 2, to ensure complete clarification. The assessment and certification of incapacity also requires clarification. The explanatory notes state that the bill makes \"assessment of capacity . . . a matter for the medical practitioner in charge of the patient's treatment.\" Although that is fairly clear, the definition in the bill is \"any person who is responsible for the medical treatment\".That definition is slightly wider. It relates to a point that Richard Simpson raised earlier, when he pointed out that in modern medicine, decisions are often made by teams. The definition needs to be amended to recognise the change in medical practice. Christine Grahame made a point about the right of appeal over the renewal of guardianship orders. That issue is of particular concern to the Mental Welfare Commission. I hope that the minister will heed those concerns and, if necessary, amend the bill at stage 2 to take account of them. A number of aspects of this bill require clarification and amendment, especially those sections that deal with medical provision. I believe strongly that the Executive is committed to addressing those problems, and I hope that amendments will address those concerns adequately, so that the bill will be recognised for its good aspects, not its bad aspects.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am aware that, as the last person to speak before the minister closes the debate, I am in acute danger of touching on some points that have already been made. I hope that you will forgive me, Presiding Officer, if I cover some territory that has already been covered. Given Phil Gallie's last remarks, I am not sure what influence Lyndsay McIntosh is having on his politics these days— [Laughter.]—but his comments are welcome none the less.

It is clear that all parties support the general principles that underlie the bill. As several contributors to the debate have pointed out, moves to introduce a bill for adults with incapacity began in the 1980s and we should give credit to those who started that campaign. I congratulate the members of the Justice and Home Affairs Committee on their work, and I do not say that simply because I am Roseanna Cunningham's deputy. As this is the first time that a committee has had to take a bill through the legislative process, they should be congratulated on the way in which they have handled that task.

It gives me some pleasure to be able to wind up this debate for the SNP, because I was the person who moved this issue as party policy at our national conference in Inverness two years ago. We recognised the growing campaign for the introduction of this measure, and it is good to see that the Executive has chosen to introduce this bill early in the Parliament.

I would like to refer back to my own professional experience and to the disadvantages that result from the present legal system. Those disadvantages have to be dealt with not only by professionals who work with adults with incapacity, but by some of the most vulnerable members of our society. That problem has been mentioned by several speakers, including Jim Wallace and Scott Barrie, who referred to the freezing of joint bank accounts when one person in a couple develops dementia.

In my area, one of the most common problems concerns young people with acquired brain injuries. Because of the legal difficulties, the relatives have found themselves struggling to deal not only with the trauma of a young member of the family having a head injury, but with that person's personal and financial affairs. Unfortunately, that is a problem that some people experience day in, day out, and that is why most people recognise

the value of the bill.

The burden that those legal difficulties create often falls upon the shoulders of a relative or carer who may have little understanding of the legal problems. Very often, those people have had to resort to seeking expensive legal advice to address those problems. Karen Whitefield made that point in her contribution this afternoon. In my experience, the relative or carer was often an elderly person who had to cope with the trauma of their child's condition and the legal problems associated with it.

A couple of members have mentioned the fact that myths have built up around the bill. It is important to highlight the fact that this bill does not focus entirely on the issue of incapacity. That point was initially raised by Nora Radcliffe, who was taken somewhat by surprise when she was called to speak this morning. The bill seeks to empower individuals to make decisions on their own behalf where they have the capacity to do so. I fear that there is a growing impression that those who have learning difficulties, mental illness or a head injury will somehow automatically fall under the provisions of the bill. The bill is not about removing rights; it is about providing greater safeguards for individuals in managing their affairs. We must provide protection where it is required.

I want to raise a point that has not been mentioned in the debate so far. From my discussions with organisations with a particular interest in the bill, it has become clear that considerable misunderstandings exist about the bill. Organisations such as the Scottish Association for Mental Health and ENABLE, to mention only two, find themselves dealing every day with people who may benefit from the bill's provisions. They report that there is a clear lack of understanding amongst local organisations about the legal technicalities that may arise from the bill. I believe that information needs to be provided on that specific area.

I find a clear willingness on the part of organisations with an interest in the client groups who may be affected by the bill to work with the Executive to produce an information guide. The guide could be distributed to local organisations to disseminate information to field workers, who may be someone's first port of call for advice on the issue. Concerns exist that some of the people who may get the greatest benefit and security from the the bill may not receive it because of a lack of information. When the bill has passed through Parliament, I ask the Executive to consider the possibility of producing a public information leaflet that can be disseminated to local organisations to help them pass on the valuable information that will be required.

Several members have mentioned ECT and neurosurgery for mental disorder, an area where there appears to be some ambiguity over the impact of the bill. Jim Wallace said in his opening speech that he is trying to clarify that area, but there is some confusion about how the bill will apply to a person who is either an informal or formal patient, who may have incapacity and who ends up in hospital. A distinction exists on the type of treatment that that person can be provided with in hospital. I hope to see that addressed at stage 2, although I recognise that the matter may cross over to the Millan committee's considerations.

It is clear from the debate that the major area of controversy centres on the medical areas in the bill. That was also clear from the evidence that was given to the Justice and Home Affairs Committee. I do not intend today to rehearse all the concerns that have been raised, but Roseanna Cunningham highlighted in her opening speech the need to address that subject at stage 2.

The definition of intervention needs to be clarified. I ask that the Executive give serious consideration at stage 2 to Roseanna's point about the inclusion of such a definition in the bill.

Tricia Marwick raised a number of important points on nutrition and hydration, in particular with regard to the BMA's evidence. Gordon Jackson made the point that the words \"ventilation, nutrition and hydration\" in section 44(2)(b) of the bill have created fear and uncertainty. I welcome the Executive's commitment to amend that section, but I must add that the jury is out—until we see the Executive's amendment—on whether the clarification will be sufficient. The concerns on this part of the bill focus primarily on the possibility of back-door euthanasia. As several members have pointed out, the Executive has no intention of providing for that, but it will have the opportunity, at stage 2, to ensure complete clarification.

The assessment and certification of incapacity also requires clarification. The explanatory notes state that the bill makes

\"assessment of capacity . . . a matter for the medical practitioner in charge of the patient's treatment.\"

Although that is fairly clear, the definition in the bill is

\"any person who is responsible for the medical treatment\".

That definition is slightly wider. It relates to a point that Richard Simpson raised earlier, when he pointed out that in modern medicine, decisions are often made by teams. The definition needs to be amended to recognise the change in medical practice.

Christine Grahame made a point about the right of appeal over the renewal of guardianship orders. That issue is of particular concern to the Mental Welfare Commission. I hope that the minister will

heed those concerns and, if necessary, amend the bill at stage 2 to take account of them.

A number of aspects of this bill require clarification and amendment, especially those sections that deal with medical provision. I believe strongly that the Executive is committed to addressing those problems, and I hope that amendments will address those concerns adequately, so that the bill will be recognised for its good aspects, not its bad aspects.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:31.1569345+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C713544", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Waste Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27189, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 19.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 19.0, "ID": 27189, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 33.0, "ContributionID": 713544, "EditedText": "Local area waste strategies are the key place to decide the most cost-effective way in which to manage waste disposal and recycling. One of the key points that I made, which is accepted by everybody in the waste industry, is that there are insufficient incentives for recycling. Many local authorities have gone down the recycling route only to find that they cannot sell the products of recycling. That is the point of the REMADE project; we have to change the economics of the collection and use of waste. The idea of area waste plans is that they will allow local authorities to get together. The £2.5 million that I am allocating from April next year is intended to let them get on with that process. I do not want anyone to be under any illusion. The production of the waste strategy today is not an instant solution to the problem of waste. It will be a long-term process; this is the start of our tackling the legacy of the waste we produce. In terms of local authority expenditure in future, the work that is done in local authority waste strategies will inform our future resourcing to local authorities. That has to be looked at now. I refute the suggestion that the draft strategy has been diluted. Implementing SEPA's strategy will require radical change on the part of local authorities, developers and society as a whole. We have not really got to grips with the fact that the waste that we produce is an inheritance for the future. The people who live around existing landfill sites know the issues that exist; the question is what we do with our future landfill targets.", "EditedTextHTML": "Local area waste strategies are the key place to decide the most cost-effective way in which to manage waste disposal and recycling.

One of the key points that I made, which is accepted by everybody in the waste industry, is that there are insufficient incentives for recycling. Many local authorities have gone down the recycling route only to find that they cannot sell the products of recycling. That is the point of the REMADE project; we have to change the economics of the collection and use of waste. The idea of area waste plans is that they will allow local authorities to get together. The £2.5 million that I am allocating from April next year is intended to let them get on with that process.

I do not want anyone to be under any illusion. The production of the waste strategy today is not an instant solution to the problem of waste. It will be a long-term process; this is the start of our tackling the legacy of the waste we produce. In terms of local authority expenditure in future, the work that is done in local authority waste strategies will inform our future resourcing to local authorities. That has to be looked at now.

I refute the suggestion that the draft strategy has been diluted. Implementing SEPA's strategy will require radical change on the part of local authorities, developers and society as a whole. We have not really got to grips with the fact that the waste that we produce is an inheritance for the future. The people who live around existing landfill sites know the issues that exist; the question is what we do with our future landfill targets.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:08.9207112+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C713548", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Waste Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27189, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 19.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 19.0, "ID": 27189, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 41.0, "ContributionID": 713548, "EditedText": "I thank Mr Harper for his overall support. Creating incentives for the move towards waste minimisation is critical and must be addressed. It is possible to re-use waste through incineration and waste energy schemes, but such schemes are expensive. That is why we want to bring local authorities together to work out deliverable strategies. Investment in new plant is hugely expensive. Before this morning's meeting, I was talking to my colleague, Mr Scott, about the Shetland issue. The capital expenditure required is considerable, although the money comes back if waste is re-used as an economic resource. That is why we need collective strategies between local authorities. It is the Executive's job to encourage that and to give a realistic time scale—the end of next year—to get the discussions going. Local authorities will have to review their positions.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank Mr Harper for his overall support. Creating incentives for the move towards waste minimisation is critical and must be addressed. It is possible to re-use waste through incineration and waste energy schemes, but such schemes are expensive. That is why we want to bring local authorities together to work out deliverable strategies.

Investment in new plant is hugely expensive. Before this morning's meeting, I was talking to my colleague, Mr Scott, about the Shetland issue. The capital expenditure required is considerable, although the money comes back if waste is re-used as an economic resource. That is why we need collective strategies between local authorities. It is the Executive's job to encourage that and to give a realistic time scale—the end of

next year—to get the discussions going. Local authorities will have to review their positions.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:08.9207112+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C713552", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Waste Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27189, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 19.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 19.0, "ID": 27189, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 49.0, "ContributionID": 713552, "EditedText": "The problem of waste creation does not stop at the border. The whole point of the landfill tax is that it provides an incentive across the United Kingdom. If a firm operates in Scotland and in England, should it pay a different tax for its use of different landfill sites? There is a strong argument for us to take responsibility at a UK level. The national waste strategy that SEPA has produced for Scotland, and that I am commending to Parliament, states that there are particular things that the Scottish Parliament can do to encourage local authorities and to allow SEPA to address the issue properly. Pretending that this issue stops at the border, or that there should be a different landfill tax north and south of the border, is ridiculous.", "EditedTextHTML": "The problem of waste creation does not stop at the border. The whole point of the landfill tax is that it provides an incentive across the United Kingdom. If a firm operates in Scotland and in England, should it pay a different tax for its use of different landfill sites? There is a strong argument for us to take responsibility at a UK level.

The national waste strategy that SEPA has produced for Scotland, and that I am commending to Parliament, states that there are particular things that the Scottish Parliament can do to encourage local authorities and to allow SEPA to address the issue properly. Pretending that this issue stops at the border, or that there should be a different landfill tax north and south of the border, is ridiculous.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:08.9207112+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C713561", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Waste Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27189, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 19.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 19.0, "ID": 27189, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 67.0, "ContributionID": 713561, "EditedText": "We can investigate that possibility. We need to consider whether to have landfill or waste disposal sites dispersed around the country, which makes it more difficult to get economies of scale to use rail, or whether to concentrate facilities. There is no short answer to that pertinent question.", "EditedTextHTML": "We can investigate that possibility. We need to consider whether to have landfill or waste disposal sites dispersed around the country, which makes it more difficult to get economies of scale to use rail, or whether to concentrate facilities. There is no short answer to that pertinent question.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:08.9207112+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C713563", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Waste Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27189, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 19.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 19.0, "ID": 27189, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 71.0, "ContributionID": 713563, "EditedText": "Mr Chisholm is absolutely right. The target that he mentioned is a European requirement that will have to be met under the landfill directive. However, that is not such a challenging figure; the 50 per cent reduction that will be brought in after 2006 will be very challenging. That long-term issue concentrates my mind and the challenge now is to put in place a robust strategy to meet those long-term objectives. Although I said that we did not have current targets, we have had aspirational targets and many people are aware that local authorities have fallen behind in dealing with recycling targets. We need to change the economics of this issue and I look to SEPA to give us realistic targets to concentrate everyone's mind. It is hoped that the combination of local authorities working together in groups and SEPA's work will inform the discussion. More work has to be done to identify not only realistic targets, but targets that will persuade us to take difficult decisions.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Chisholm is absolutely right. The target that he mentioned is a European requirement that will have to be met under the landfill directive. However, that is not such a challenging figure; the 50 per cent reduction that will be brought in after 2006 will be very challenging. That long-term issue concentrates my mind and the challenge now is to put in place a robust strategy to meet those long-term objectives.

Although I said that we did not have current targets, we have had aspirational targets and many people are aware that local authorities have fallen behind in dealing with recycling targets. We need to change the economics of this issue and I look to SEPA to give us realistic targets to concentrate everyone's mind. It is hoped that the combination of local authorities working together in groups and SEPA's work will inform the discussion. More work has to be done to identify not only realistic targets, but targets that will persuade us to take difficult decisions.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:08.9207112+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C713565", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Waste Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27189, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 19.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 19.0, "ID": 27189, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 75.0, "ContributionID": 713565, "EditedText": "I am grateful to the member for that question. The issue is how we tackle untreated sewage waste, which we are committed to phasing out by the end of 2001. The agriculture industry is examining the issue very carefully. Another issue is the need to treat sewage waste. The member is right: waste was previously dumped elsewhere without further thought. Higher environmental standards are having an impact in ways that were not initially intended. We will need to consider the application of sewage on agricultural land. Research is being done into the matter and I look forward to the results. Sewage sludge can also be burned, which is what happens in some countries. There are a variety of choices and the problems need to be addressed.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful to the member for that question. The issue is how we tackle untreated sewage waste, which we are committed to phasing out by the end of 2001. The agriculture industry is examining the issue very carefully.

Another issue is the need to treat sewage waste. The member is right: waste was previously dumped elsewhere without further thought. Higher environmental standards are having an impact in ways that were not initially intended. We will need to consider the application of sewage on agricultural land.

Research is being done into the matter and I look forward to the results. Sewage sludge can also be burned, which is what happens in some countries. There are a variety of choices and the problems need to be addressed.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:08.9207112+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C713657", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27196, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27197, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 258.0, "QuestionHeading": "Strategic Rail Authority", "QuestionHeadingID": 27199, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 266.0, "DisplayOrder": 266.0, "ID": 27199, "ParentID": 27197 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment (Sarah Boyack): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 269.0, "ContributionID": 713657, "EditedText": "Yes. The shadow strategic rail authority administers the rail passenger partnership scheme, designed to encourage improvements in the rail network. The Scottish Executive will be consulted on applications from Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes. The shadow strategic rail authority administers the rail passenger partnership scheme, designed to encourage improvements in the rail network. The Scottish Executive will be consulted on applications from Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:08.9207112+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C713828", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pollokshaws Sports Centre", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27225, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 636.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 636.0, "ID": 27225, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 642.0, "ContributionID": 713828, "EditedText": "I begin by thanking the Parliamentary Bureau for placing this motion on the business bulletin for debate. It sends a clear message to communities around Scotland that the Parliament is responsive to local needs and concerns. I welcome representatives of Pollokshaws community council, who are in the public gallery today to hear the debate. Their determination to save a valued local facility is commendable. I thank those of all parties who have given their support to this motion, including the constituency MSP Gordon Jackson. We have heard a great deal in recent weeks about so-called turf wars between constituency MSPs and regional MSPs. I hope that Gordon and I have demonstrated the potential for all MSPs, even those like Gordon and I, who were opponents in a hard fought election, to work together in the interests of the people who sent us here. For people who do not know the area, I should say that Pollokshaws is a distinct community on the south side of Glasgow. For historical reasons that I will not go into just now, people who live there are referred to as the queer folk. Pollokshaws sports centre is a long-established facility that houses a swimming pool, dry sports facilities and a launderette. The sports centre is extremely well used by people of all ages who live in and around Pollokshaws. The swimming pool, in particular, is a favourite for everyone in the community. Many elderly people use it for pleasure and when they are recovering from operations such as a hip replacement and have been advised to swim as part of the recovery process. Most local children learn to swim in the sports centre's swimming pool. However, in spite of all that, the City of Glasgow Council has decided to close the sports centre as part of its review of sports facilities in the city. The council's justification for the closure is threefold. First, it says that Pollokshaws sports centre is housed in an old building that is in need of refurbishment and that it would cost too much to bring it up to the required standard. Various figures have been bandied about—from £1 million to £5 million—but at no time has there been any detailed explanation of the work that needs to be done. In fact, the council document that confirmed the closure of the sports centre says that a saving of £400,000 per year is the reason for the closure. It does not require additional money that needs to be spent. All that leads to the understandable suspicion among locals that the cost factor is being greatly exaggerated to give the council an excuse to close a well-used local facility. The council's second justification for closure is that people in Pollokshaws will be able to use the new sports facilities in Glasgow—the new sports centre in Pollok and the soon to be opened centre in the Gorbals. People who know anything about the south side of Glasgow will know that to offer elderly people and families the opportunity to use alternative facilities in Pollok or the Gorbals is little better than offering them alternative facilities on the other side of the city. It takes two bus journeys to travel from Pollokshaws to either Pollok or the Gorbals. In its strategy for sports facilities in Glasgow, the council refers to the importance of low-cost and affordable access to swimming pools, but a parent with two kids would have to shell out more than a fiver just to get to and from either of the alternative facilities. Those facilities do not provide a real alternative to elderly people who would find the bus journeys difficult. The third justification the council gives is that the decision to close Pollokshaws is the result of a wide-ranging consultation process. I am not sure whom the city council consulted, but it strikes me that in the whole process, it managed to overlook the views of the 4,000 or so people who have signed a petition protesting against the closure, the 600 people who wrote directly to the council, the local councillor and the Glasgow MSPs from all parties. Only the city council favours closure and it is about time it started to listen to those in Glasgow and Pollokshaws who pay their council tax. Pollokshaws is an area of considerable deprivation in a city with horrific health problems— recently we saw Glasgow's dreadful health statistics. Over the past few years, Pollokshaws has only lost facilities. The irony is that local people are not asking for anything new—they are simply asking to hold on to the one remaining community facility. That is not unreasonable. The Executive has commendably pledged to combat social exclusion. Accessible sports facilities can play a huge role in that. In a recent press statement, Rhona Brankin said that sport is an important tool in the fight against social exclusion. I am aware that the decision rests ultimately not with the Parliament but with the local council, but by debating the matter today we can send a message of support to all the people in Pollokshaws—all those in the public gallery today, and the thousands more who are fighting to protect and sustain their local community.", "EditedTextHTML": "I begin by thanking the Parliamentary Bureau for placing this motion on the business bulletin for debate. It sends a clear message to communities around Scotland that the Parliament is responsive to local needs and concerns.

I welcome representatives of Pollokshaws community council, who are in the public gallery today to hear the debate. Their determination to save a valued local facility is commendable. I thank those of all parties who have given their support to this motion, including the constituency MSP Gordon Jackson.

We have heard a great deal in recent weeks about so-called turf wars between constituency MSPs and regional MSPs. I hope that Gordon and I have demonstrated the potential for all MSPs, even those like Gordon and I, who were opponents in a hard fought election, to work together in the interests of the people who sent us here.

For people who do not know the area, I should say that Pollokshaws is a distinct community on the south side of Glasgow. For historical reasons that I will not go into just now, people who live there are referred to as the queer folk. Pollokshaws sports centre is a long-established facility that houses a swimming pool, dry sports facilities and a launderette. The sports centre is extremely well used by people of all ages who live in and around Pollokshaws.

The swimming pool, in particular, is a favourite for everyone in the community. Many elderly people use it for pleasure and when they are recovering from operations such as a hip replacement and have been advised to swim as part of the recovery process. Most local children learn to swim in the sports centre's swimming pool. However, in spite of all that, the City of Glasgow Council has decided to close the sports centre as part of its review of sports facilities in the city.

The council's justification for the closure is threefold. First, it says that Pollokshaws sports centre is housed in an old building that is in need of refurbishment and that it would cost too much to bring it up to the required standard. Various figures have been bandied about—from £1 million to £5 million—but at no time has there been any detailed explanation of the work that needs to be done. In fact, the council document that confirmed the closure of the sports centre says that a saving of £400,000 per year is the reason for the closure. It does not require additional money that needs to be spent. All that leads to the understandable suspicion among locals that the cost factor is being greatly exaggerated to give the council an excuse to close a well-used local facility.

The council's second justification for closure is that people in Pollokshaws will be able to use the new sports facilities in Glasgow—the new sports centre in Pollok and the soon to be opened centre in the Gorbals. People who know anything about the south side of Glasgow will know that to offer elderly people and families the opportunity to use alternative facilities in Pollok or the Gorbals is little better than offering them alternative facilities on the other side of the city. It takes two bus journeys to travel from Pollokshaws to either Pollok or the Gorbals. In its strategy for sports facilities in Glasgow, the council refers to the importance of low-cost and affordable access to swimming pools, but a parent with two kids would have to shell out more than a fiver just to get to and from either of the alternative facilities. Those facilities do not provide a real alternative to elderly people who would find the bus journeys difficult.

The third justification the council gives is that the decision to close Pollokshaws is the result of a wide-ranging consultation process. I am not sure whom the city council consulted, but it strikes me that in the whole process, it managed to overlook the views of the 4,000 or so people who have signed a petition protesting against the closure, the 600 people who wrote directly to the council, the local councillor and the Glasgow MSPs from all parties. Only the city council favours closure and it is about time it started to listen to those in Glasgow and Pollokshaws who pay their council tax.

Pollokshaws is an area of considerable deprivation in a city with horrific health problems— recently we saw Glasgow's dreadful health statistics. Over the past few years, Pollokshaws has only lost facilities. The irony is that local people are not asking for anything new—they are

simply asking to hold on to the one remaining community facility. That is not unreasonable.

The Executive has commendably pledged to combat social exclusion. Accessible sports facilities can play a huge role in that. In a recent press statement, Rhona Brankin said that sport is an important tool in the fight against social exclusion.

I am aware that the decision rests ultimately not with the Parliament but with the local council, but by debating the matter today we can send a message of support to all the people in Pollokshaws—all those in the public gallery today, and the thousands more who are fighting to protect and sustain their local community.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:00:39.6991441+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C713841", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pollokshaws Sports Centre", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27225, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 636.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 636.0, "ID": 27225, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 675.0, "ContributionID": 713841, "EditedText": "Will the deputy minister take an intervention?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the deputy minister take an intervention?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:00:39.6991441+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C713846", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pollokshaws Sports Centre", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27225, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 636.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 636.0, "ID": 27225, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 685.0, "ContributionID": 713846, "EditedText": "Will the minister take one intervention?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister take one intervention?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:00:39.6991441+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C713854", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pollokshaws Sports Centre", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27225, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 636.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 636.0, "ID": 27225, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 701.0, "ContributionID": 713854, "EditedText": "One last time—will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "One last time—will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:00:39.6991441+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C713664", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27196, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27197, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 258.0, "QuestionHeading": "Student Finance", "QuestionHeadingID": 27201, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 284.0, "DisplayOrder": 284.0, "ID": 27201, "ParentID": 27197 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "4. Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 285.0, "ContributionID": 713664, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive when it expects to report to the Parliament on any recommendations from the independent committee of inquiry into student finance. (S1O-790)", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive when it expects to report to the Parliament on any recommendations from the independent committee of inquiry into student finance. (S1O-790)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:15:01.1305372+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2110E214P424C713836", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Dec 1999", "ID": 4198 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pollokshaws Sports Centre", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27225, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 636.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 636.0, "ID": 27225, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gibson, Kenneth", "ID": 2110, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenneth Gibson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Gibson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 663.0, "ContributionID": 713836, "EditedText": "Indeed.", "EditedTextHTML": "Indeed.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:20:08.7854474+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1860E111P160C713432", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Grant, Rhoda", "ID": 1860, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Rhoda Grant", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Rhoda Grant (Highlands and Islands) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 190.0, "ContributionID": 713432, "EditedText": "I am a member of the Rural Affairs Committee, and we appear to be firefighting all the time when it comes to the traditional industries of the Highlands and Islands. It is with a sense of relief that I welcome the opportunity to step back and consider the direction that the sea fishing industry might take to ensure a more stable future. In the sea fishing industry, there are potential problems. One that worries me is the future allocation of quotas to fishing boats. At present, quotas are traded for large amounts of money. That means that young people who want a career in the industry will be unable to have one. To become a fisherman, not only does someone have to spend a large amount of capital on buying a boat, but they must also buy a quota. If that continues, there will be no young people in the industry, and quotas will increasingly be bought by large organisations. There is no easy solution to that problem. To prohibit the sale of quotas would drive the market underground, perhaps, or mean that those who had already laid out large amounts of money for their quota would be unable to recoup that outlay. However, the trade in quotas is a risky business, as quotas can be cut, meaning that that investment is lost. We need to find another way in which to allocate quotas, so that the gamble is taken out of the equation and young people will be allowed to join the industry. A few weeks ago, we debated community ownership of the land. Perhaps we should consider community ownership of the sea. A scheme is running in Shetland, for example, whereby the community buys quotas that are then allocated to local fishermen. Under the current quota regime, they must buy those quotas at market value. That may not be regarded as the best use of public money, when the risks that are involved are taken into account. That said, if we are in the business of protecting fragile economies, that is the best way forward in the current climate. The Executive has made much progress in including the fishing industry in decision making that affects it, and in involving the industry in policy making. I welcome the minister's announcement about the local management of fisheries. I ask the minister to involve the industry and communities that are dependent on fishing in the finding of ways to allocate quotas. Perhaps quotas could be allocated to the local management groups. The initiative taken by Shetland shows that communities are already aware of the problem and are beginning to deal with it. We do not want to end up debating a crisis in the fishing industry due to the allocation of quotas. We have to work together to find ways to protect the industry and ensure that young people from all parts of the Scottish coast are able to find a career in sea fishing.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am a member of the Rural Affairs Committee, and we appear to be firefighting all the time when it comes to the traditional industries of the Highlands and Islands. It is with a sense of relief that I welcome the opportunity to step back and consider the direction that the sea fishing industry might take to ensure a more stable future.

In the sea fishing industry, there are potential problems. One that worries me is the future allocation of quotas to fishing boats. At present, quotas are traded for large amounts of money. That means that young people who want a career in the industry will be unable to have one. To become a fisherman, not only does someone have to spend a large amount of capital on buying a boat, but they must also buy a quota. If that continues, there will be no young people in the industry, and quotas will increasingly be bought by large organisations. There is no easy solution to that problem. To prohibit the sale of quotas would drive the market underground, perhaps, or mean that those who had already laid out large amounts of money for their quota would be unable to recoup that outlay.

However, the trade in quotas is a risky business, as quotas can be cut, meaning that that investment is lost. We need to find another way in which to allocate quotas, so that the gamble is taken out of the equation and young people will be allowed to join the industry. A few weeks ago, we debated community ownership of the land. Perhaps we should consider community ownership of the sea. A scheme is running in Shetland, for example, whereby the community buys quotas that are then allocated to local fishermen. Under the current quota regime, they must buy those quotas at market value. That may not be regarded as the best use of public money, when the risks that are involved are taken into account. That said, if we are in the business of protecting fragile economies, that is the best way forward in the current climate.

The Executive has made much progress in including the fishing industry in decision making that affects it, and in involving the industry in policy making. I welcome the minister's announcement about the local management of fisheries. I ask the minister to involve the industry and communities that are dependent on fishing in the finding of ways to allocate quotas. Perhaps quotas could be allocated to the local management groups. The initiative taken by Shetland shows that communities are already aware of the problem and are beginning to deal with it. We do not want to end up debating a crisis in the fishing industry due to the allocation of quotas. We have to work together to find ways to protect the industry and

ensure that young people from all parts of the Scottish coast are able to find a career in sea fishing.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:00:34.116328+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2180E179P471C713406", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lochhead, Richard", "ID": 2180, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Lochhead", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Richard Lochhead: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 134.0, "ContributionID": 713406, "EditedText": "I thank the minister. Given the health of pelagic stocks and the quota, will the minister recommend that we dispense with demands for capacity reductions for the pelagic sector in Scotland? If the sector has to reduce capacity, vessels will have to exit the Scottish industry. The Dutch will be laughing. They will buy up Scottish vessels and fish our stocks.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the minister. Given the health of pelagic stocks and the quota, will the minister recommend that we dispense with demands for capacity reductions for the pelagic sector in Scotland? If the sector has to reduce capacity, vessels will have to exit the Scottish industry. The Dutch will be laughing. They will buy up Scottish vessels and fish our stocks.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:20.9827029+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2180E179P471C713410", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lochhead, Richard", "ID": 2180, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Lochhead", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Richard Lochhead: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 143.0, "ContributionID": 713410, "EditedText": "I very much welcome the minister's announcement of a new scheme, but why on earth did we have to wait six months for it? Surely the safety of our fishing fleet is a matter of the utmost importance. Does the safety of Scottish fishermen depend on the ability of MAFF to sell a fruit and vegetable site in Covent Garden? Or is it the case, as Alex Salmond made Elliot Morley admit in the London Parliament this week, that the Scottish Executive had the cash for a new scheme all along but did not access it to implement a new initiative? That is appalling. We do not know whether that is a London scandal or a Scottish scandal, but perhaps the minister can enlighten us.", "EditedTextHTML": "I very much welcome the minister's announcement of a new scheme, but why on earth did we have to wait six months for it? Surely the safety of our fishing fleet is a matter of the utmost importance.

Does the safety of Scottish fishermen depend on the ability of MAFF to sell a fruit and vegetable site in Covent Garden? Or is it the case, as Alex Salmond made Elliot Morley admit in the London Parliament this week, that the Scottish Executive had the cash for a new scheme all along but did not access it to implement a new initiative? That is appalling. We do not know whether that is a London scandal or a Scottish scandal, but perhaps the minister can enlighten us.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:20.9827029+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2180E179P471C713421", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lochhead, Richard", "ID": 2180, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Lochhead", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Richard Lochhead: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 167.0, "ContributionID": 713421, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:20.9827029+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2180E179P471C713485", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lochhead, Richard", "ID": 2180, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Lochhead", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Richard Lochhead: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 307.0, "ContributionID": 713485, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:20.9827029+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C713346", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government Finance", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27183, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27183, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Alex Salmond (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 11.0, "ContributionID": 713346, "EditedText": "On a point of order, Presiding Officer. Have you had notice of a statement by the Executive on the position of Mr John Rafferty? I would like a ruling from you on whom Mr Rafferty is accountable to. Is he accountable to the Parliament, through the First Minister, or is he bound by the civil service code, which says that civil servants \"should not deceive or knowingly mislead, Ministers, Parliament, the National Assembly or the public\"? If Mr Rafferty is bound by the civil service code and the press reports are accurate, his position is now untenable and if the First Minister resists making a statement on the matter, his position will be greatly weakened. I am asking for a ruling that will uphold the Parliament's ability to hold the Executive and its array of expensive spin doctors to account.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order, Presiding Officer. Have you had notice of a statement by the Executive on the position of Mr John Rafferty? I would like a ruling from you on whom Mr Rafferty is accountable to. Is he accountable to the Parliament, through the First Minister, or is he bound by the civil service code, which says that civil servants

\"should not deceive or knowingly mislead, Ministers, Parliament, the National Assembly or the public\"?

If Mr Rafferty is bound by the civil service code and the press reports are accurate, his position is now untenable and if the First Minister resists making a statement on the matter, his position will be greatly weakened.

I am asking for a ruling that will uphold the Parliament's ability to hold the Executive and its array of expensive spin doctors to account.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C713348", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government Finance", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27183, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27183, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie (Lothians) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 15.0, "ContributionID": 713348, "EditedText": "On a similar matter, Mr Presiding Officer. Given that members are responsible for the conduct of their advisers and employees, does the matter raised by Mr Salmond fall under the remit of the Standards Committee, which should be investigating this serious matter?", "EditedTextHTML": "On a similar matter, Mr Presiding Officer. Given that members are responsible for the conduct of their advisers and employees, does the matter raised by Mr Salmond fall under the remit of the Standards Committee, which should be investigating this serious matter?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713349", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government Finance", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27183, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27183, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 17.0, "ContributionID": 713349, "EditedText": "Having read the proceedings of the Standards Committee, I can tell members that the committee is examining the civil service code of conduct and the way in which it relates to our activities. The committee has that matter under review.", "EditedTextHTML": "Having read the proceedings of the Standards Committee, I can tell members that the committee is examining the civil service code of conduct and the way in which it relates to our activities. The committee has that matter under review.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C713355", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government Finance", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27183, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27183, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Monteith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 30.0, "ContributionID": 713355, "EditedText": "I am sure that you will be able to judge, Presiding Officer.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sure that you will be able to judge, Presiding Officer.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713358", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government Finance", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27183, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27183, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 36.0, "ContributionID": 713358, "EditedText": "That was certainly not a point of order, and I should have seen it coming. We are wasting valuable time when many members want to speak. May we have short questions and exchanges, please?", "EditedTextHTML": "That was certainly not a point of order, and I should have seen it coming. We are wasting valuable time when many members want to speak. May we have short questions and exchanges, please?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713361", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government Finance", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27183, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27183, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 42.0, "ContributionID": 713361, "EditedText": "I call Keith Harding.", "EditedTextHTML": "I call Keith Harding.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2105E44P74C713366", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government Finance", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27183, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27183, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harding, Mr Keith", "ID": 2105, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Harding", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Keith Harding (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 52.0, "ContributionID": 713366, "EditedText": "Thank you. I thank the minister for the early delivery of his speech. I had half an hour to read it, which is quite good. In Stirling, when we were in opposition, we got only two minutes. I want to respond to the minister's response to Mr Gibson. In 1994-95, the Conservatives spent £19.8 billion in real terms, while in the Labour party's first three years in office, it has spent only £17.4 billion each year; please stop blaming us for all the Labour party's problems. I agree with Mr Gibson that there will be no dancing or celebrations in the council chambers tonight. It appears that, once again, the minister expects councils to fund pay awards from efficiency savings. If they are not, there can be no growth. It will be interesting to hear what he has to say about that. How much will councils spend on new burdens, and have they been fully resourced? Does the minister agree that services, other than those that he deems key services, will face cuts yet again? For example, will there be fewer road and pavement repairs, reduced grounds maintenance and further reductions in leisure and community facilities, to name but a few? I am also interested to learn how the minister will respond to the motion approved by the leaders of COSLA and those that will probably come from other councils during next week. The modest council tax increase of 5 per cent amounts to an average increase of 36 per cent over the past three years. People who live in some cities will have to pay an extra £200 or £300 a year, which is hardly modest.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you. I thank the minister for the early delivery of his speech. I had half an hour to read it, which is quite good. In Stirling, when we were in opposition, we got only two minutes.

I want to respond to the minister's response to Mr Gibson. In 1994-95, the Conservatives spent £19.8 billion in real terms, while in the Labour party's first three years in office, it has spent only £17.4 billion each year; please stop blaming us for all the Labour party's problems.

I agree with Mr Gibson that there will be no dancing or celebrations in the council chambers tonight. It appears that, once again, the minister expects councils to fund pay awards from efficiency savings. If they are not, there can be no growth. It will be interesting to hear what he has to say about that.

How much will councils spend on new burdens, and have they been fully resourced? Does the minister agree that services, other than those that he deems key services, will face cuts yet again? For example, will there be fewer road and pavement repairs, reduced grounds maintenance and further reductions in leisure and community facilities, to name but a few?

I am also interested to learn how the minister will respond to the motion approved by the leaders of COSLA and those that will probably come from other councils during next week.

The modest council tax increase of 5 per cent amounts to an average increase of 36 per cent over the past three years. People who live in some cities will have to pay an extra £200 or £300 a year, which is hardly modest.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2105E44P74C713369", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government Finance", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27183, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27183, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harding, Mr Keith", "ID": 2105, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Harding", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Harding rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 58.0, "ContributionID": 713369, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C713372", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government Finance", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27183, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27183, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 64.0, "ContributionID": 713372, "EditedText": "Donald Gorrie made a number of wide-ranging points. I want to make it clear that I am keen to discuss with COSLA and other interested parties the future of the system of guidelines and the other controls on local government spending. Such controls are important, as local government expenditure in Scotland is part of the budget assigned to the Parliament and therefore is part of our total public expenditure in Scotland. While we have a responsibility to take that seriously, we also have a responsibility to discuss the future of that system with local government and we intend to do so, starting in January. Those discussions will also include the co-ordination of initiatives and the mix of general, hypothecated and ring-fenced expenditure that exists between local and central Government. A number of Mr Gorrie's points will be included within those discussions. As for pay awards, the system across the whole of local government is that, apart from specific circumstances, such awards are funded from efficiency savings. If we accept such a discipline centrally, we are right to continue to insist on the same at local authority level. Although that means hard decisions at times, it also means that we are all in the same boat, which is only right and proper. Although it would be good to have more discussions on the number of initiatives and how they are funded locally and centrally, I am not convinced that setting up another committee would be the best way of doing that. I look forward to more relaxed and informal discussions that might lead to a good conclusion.", "EditedTextHTML": "Donald Gorrie made a number of wide-ranging points.

I want to make it clear that I am keen to discuss with COSLA and other interested parties the future of the system of guidelines and the other controls on local government spending. Such controls are important, as local government expenditure in Scotland is part of the budget assigned to the Parliament and therefore is part of our total public expenditure in Scotland. While we have a responsibility to take that seriously, we also have a responsibility to discuss the future of that system with local government and we intend to do so, starting in January.

Those discussions will also include the co-ordination of initiatives and the mix of general, hypothecated and ring-fenced expenditure that exists between local and central Government. A number of Mr Gorrie's points will be included within those discussions.

As for pay awards, the system across the whole of local government is that, apart from specific circumstances, such awards are funded from efficiency savings. If we accept such a discipline centrally, we are right to continue to insist on the same at local authority level. Although that means hard decisions at times, it also means that we are all in the same boat, which is only right and proper.

Although it would be good to have more discussions on the number of initiatives and how they are funded locally and centrally, I am not convinced that setting up another committee would be the best way of doing that. I look forward to more relaxed and informal discussions that might lead to a good conclusion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C713376", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government Finance", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27183, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27183, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 72.0, "ContributionID": 713376, "EditedText": "I am surprised that Mr Wilson has changed his tune in the past six months and is now, apparently, opposed to increased taxation. However, I welcome that conversion and I hope that it will continue to be reflected in his party's policy.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am surprised that Mr Wilson has changed his tune in the past six months and is now, apparently, opposed to increased taxation. However, I welcome that conversion and I hope that it will continue to be reflected in his party's policy.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C713377", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government Finance", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27183, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27183, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 74.0, "ContributionID": 713377, "EditedText": "This is serious.", "EditedTextHTML": "This is serious.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5138316+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C713386", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government Finance", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27183, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27183, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 92.0, "ContributionID": 713386, "EditedText": "I think I made clear my views on council tax increases for next year, and I hope that they were heard in the chamber and elsewhere. I thank Mr Aitken for what, I presume, are his congratulations on the success of the economy, which has led to such an increase in GDP that the percentage is reduced.", "EditedTextHTML": "I think I made clear my views on council tax increases for next year, and I hope that they were heard in the chamber and elsewhere.

I thank Mr Aitken for what, I presume, are his congratulations on the success of the economy, which has led to such an increase in GDP that the percentage is reduced.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C713387", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government Finance", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27183, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27183, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan (Glasgow) (SSP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 94.0, "ContributionID": 713387, "EditedText": "Presiding Officer, I hope that you will comment on statements that are given to the chamber. A number of members have mentioned how little time they have had to prepare serious questions on points made by the minister. I have had no notice at all. An hour and a half is completely inadequate, and I hope that you will raise the matter. Does the minister agree that the £3 million extra for Glasgow is far too little, far too late? Does he agree that it would have been much better for Glasgow if he had insisted on the repeal of the capital receipt payback regulation, which this year would have given Glasgow not an additional £3 million, but an extra £18 million to spend on its housing account? Does the minister also agree that what is most important is how the money is spent on the ground? When Labour was elected in 1997, 3,000 home helps were employed by Glasgow City Council. Today, 2,500 home helps are employed by the council. Will his statement lead to the employment of more home helps in cities such as Glasgow, where people rely on those services? The minister gave a figure for anticipated council tax rises. What are the anticipated increases in local authority wages? Does the minister agree that it is far too rich to make any comparison between us and local authority workers, given that our salaries are six and seven times what local authority workers get?", "EditedTextHTML": "Presiding Officer, I hope that you will comment on statements that are given to the chamber. A number of members have mentioned how little time they have had to prepare serious questions on points made by the minister. I have had no notice at all. An hour and a half is completely inadequate, and I hope that you will raise the matter.

Does the minister agree that the £3 million extra for Glasgow is far too little, far too late? Does he agree that it would have been much better for Glasgow if he had insisted on the repeal of the capital receipt payback regulation, which this year would have given Glasgow not an additional £3 million, but an extra £18 million to spend on its housing account?

Does the minister also agree that what is most important is how the money is spent on the ground? When Labour was elected in 1997, 3,000 home helps were employed by Glasgow City Council. Today, 2,500 home helps are employed by the council. Will his statement lead to the employment of more home helps in cities such as Glasgow, where people rely on those services?

The minister gave a figure for anticipated council tax rises. What are the anticipated increases in local authority wages? Does the minister agree that it is far too rich to make any comparison between us and local authority workers, given that our salaries are six and seven times what local authority workers get?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C713388", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government Finance", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27183, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27183, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 96.0, "ContributionID": 713388, "EditedText": "The statement did not refer toMSPs—it referred to a comparison between local and central Government pay policies. The overall policies and the framework in which we operate are important. It is not good enough to consider individual figures and ideas in isolation. It is important that we manage our national finances and that we support local government, but we must do so within a national framework. It would not be appropriate for the Executive to determine the number of home helps who are employed by Glasgow City Council—that is a job for the council and it must make that decision in the light of its available resources. I hope that it can make such decisions. Of course, no amount of money is ever enough, but it is wrong to describe £3 million as insignificant or irrelevant for Glasgow; it is a helpful contribution. Other authorities that could have made a claim on that resource agreed to the decision and I thank them for that. It will be good for local government services in future if we can make more decisions in that way, based on need.", "EditedTextHTML": "The statement did not refer to

MSPs—it referred to a comparison between local and central Government pay policies.

The overall policies and the framework in which we operate are important. It is not good enough to consider individual figures and ideas in isolation. It is important that we manage our national finances and that we support local government, but we must do so within a national framework. It would not be appropriate for the Executive to determine the number of home helps who are employed by Glasgow City Council—that is a job for the council and it must make that decision in the light of its available resources. I hope that it can make such decisions.

Of course, no amount of money is ever enough, but it is wrong to describe £3 million as insignificant or irrelevant for Glasgow; it is a helpful contribution. Other authorities that could have made a claim on that resource agreed to the decision and I thank them for that. It will be good for local government services in future if we can make more decisions in that way, based on need.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1873E89P171C713391", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government Finance", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27183, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27183, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jackson, Dr Sylvia", "ID": 1873, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Stirling" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sylvia Jackson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Sylvia Jackson (Stirling) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 102.0, "ContributionID": 713391, "EditedText": "I was pleased to hear what Mr McConnell said about relief for small businesses and I welcome his remarks about a comprehensive review of non- domestic rates. Will he tell us more about the details of the relief scheme?", "EditedTextHTML": "I was pleased to hear what Mr McConnell said about relief for small businesses and I welcome his remarks about a comprehensive review of non- domestic rates. Will he tell us more about the details of the relief scheme?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713394", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 109.0, "ContributionID": 713394, "EditedText": "The next item of business is motion S1M-358, in the name of John Home Robertson, on sea fisheries, and the amendments to that motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "The next item of business is motion S1M-358, in the name of John Home Robertson, on sea fisheries, and the amendments to that motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1985E207P501C713400", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hamilton, Mr Duncan", "ID": 1985, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Duncan Hamilton (Highlands and Islands) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 122.0, "ContributionID": 713400, "EditedText": "Is the minister aware that the representatives left that meeting absolutely downcast and despondent at the Executive's lack of strategic vision? Is not it symptomatic of the Executive's failure that the minister must call in everybody else, because he is not capable of doing his job in putting forward the vision for the industry?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is the minister aware that the representatives left that meeting absolutely downcast and despondent at the Executive's lack of strategic vision? Is not it symptomatic of the

Executive's failure that the minister must call in everybody else, because he is not capable of doing his job in putting forward the vision for the industry?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2100E64P254C713397", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Home Robertson, John", "ID": 2100, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Lothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "John Home Robertson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Home Robertson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 116.0, "ContributionID": 713397, "EditedText": "Like you, Presiding Officer, I have spent a long time campaigning for a Scottish Parliament. I happen to have the odd distinction of being a direct descendant of a member of the previous Scottish Parliament, Patrick Home of Renton. He voted against the incorporating union of 1707, so he has been vindicated at last. I welcome this opportunity to debate sea fisheries in advance of next week's meeting of the Fisheries Council. I hope that we will have regular opportunities to discuss this important Scottish industry in the Parliament. The main business of the December council is to set total allowable catches and quotas for next year. I will come to that important matter later, but I should like to take this opportunity to reflect on my first five months as fisheries minister and to touch on a number of sea fisheries issues. The Executive fully understands the importance of fisheries to the Scottish economy, particularly in the north-east and in the Highlands and Islands. Scotland has the lion's share of the UK fishing industry and so it is only natural that devolution has pushed fisheries to the forefront of the political agenda. I welcome that change. It is worth reflecting on the economic and political significance of the Scottish sea fishing industry. Landings into Scotland by all vessels in 1998 were valued at more than £320 million. Scottish boats also landed more than £100 million- worth of fish abroad. More than 7,000 people are employed in the catching sector, with similar numbers involved in processing and other downstream activities. Many of those jobs bring substantial benefits to remote rural economies. The Scottish Executive and, I am sure, the Parliament recognise the importance of fishing. It is no coincidence that the first substantive debate in the Parliament was about fisheries, albeit about the vexed and rather contrived issue of the adjacent waters boundary. MEMBERS: \"Shame.\"I was pleased when I went to the October Fisheries Council to be the first Scottish Executive minister to attend and speak at a European Council of Ministers meeting. As a member of the UK team, I was involved in casting 10 votes in the council. In that circumstance, I can apply real influence on behalf of Scottish fishing communities and I intend to continue to do that. Having heard the reaction to my comment a few seconds ago, I hope that we will not waste valuable time today on the boundary question. I know—because I come from that part of the country—that Scottish boats have recently had a profitable time fishing for prawns off the Northumberland coast. I reached an agreed position with my counterpart in the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food last week to provide greater flexibility for Scottish pelagic boats to fish for sea bass off Cornwall—a long way south of any line that there might be in the North sea. What really matters to the Scottish fishing industry is the right to work in fishing grounds right round the coast of the UK and elsewhere. That is far more relevant to our fishermen than a theoretical debate about the maritime boundary of the jurisdiction of Duns sheriff court. It is a great privilege to be the fisheries minister in this first Scottish Executive. My approach to the job has been to work with the fishing industry, so I am grateful to those in the industry, particularly the Scottish Fishermen's Federation, for their advice and co-operation. I am determined to be as open and inclusive as possible. I am especially pleased to have been able to set up the Scottish inshore fisheries advisory group to give the fishing industry direct input to policy formulation and to help us to deliver policy that is workable and practical. Early indications are that SIFAG is working well. We have brought together a wide range of interests, including fishermen, scientists and people from environmental and economic development agencies, all of whom are pulling in the same direction. The Executive has demonstrated commitment to local management. I know that that is a priority for all parties, as well as for the fishing industry. I have given approval to the Shetland regulating order and hope to see it implemented shortly. An application from Orkney for a regulating order has been received and is now being discussed and refined. Similar proposals are being worked up for Solway, the western isles, Highlands and Fife. It is evident that there is growing interest in that way forward. My aim is to encourage local management leading to lighter control and regulation from the centre. I hope that there will be consensus on that. We have begun to fulfil the partnership commitment to local management of fisheries after just five months in office. I know that there are a number of difficult issues to be resolved in the fisheries field and I will come to some of those later. However, the general picture is a positive one. The revenues of Scottish vessels last year were at their highest since 1987. Since 1992, total revenues have increased by around 28 per cent in real terms. White fish prices remain high and the pelagic sector continues to develop new markets. We should bear in mind the fact that the financial benefits of fishing do not come without a heavy price. We must never forget the hazards that fishermen experience and the tragic loss of life and serious injuries that can occur in this industry. This year has been no exception—six Scottish fishermen have lost their lives working in this dangerous industry. We owe it to fishermen's families and to fishing communities to do everything possible to reduce the risk of such tragedies. I have written today to invite the Scottish Fishermen's Federation to meet me to discuss a new approach to safety. I intend to establish a new Scottish sea fishing safety scheme, based on the fisheries structural funds available to me now that the new financial instrument for fisheries guidance regulation is in place. I will discuss the detail of the scheme with the industry and with the Maritime and Coastguard Agency. We will not be bound by precedent and we will wish to deliver a scheme tailored to Scottish needs. I want the scheme to focus on the delivery of a safety culture in the fishing industry. It is all very well to have a list of safety items that can be funded, but the need is to raise awareness of safety and to improve training to prevent accidents and to save lives. One important area where the safety record is of particular concern—the under 12 m boats—was excluded from the previous scheme operated by MAFF. I am determined that our new Scottish safety scheme will cover the whole fleet, including smaller boats. In consultation with the industry, we will consider the priorities and, subject to the availability of resources, I hope to be able to begin to implement the new Scottish sea fishing safety scheme before the end of the coming financial year. On a wider front, there is still much to be done to maximise the potential of the fishing industry. We have already achieved a great deal in the few months since the Parliament took responsibility for Scotland's fisheries. I cite five examples. First, I have mentioned the inshore fisheries advisory group and the Shetland regulating order. Secondly, we have undertaken a substantial review of pelagic management arrangements and we have proposed relaxations in the regulatory burden to increase the flexibility and competitiveness of our pelagic fleet. We have agreed to return to that subject next year. I am determined to find the right balance between deregulation and necessary controls. Thirdly, we have secured a good deal for the Scottish industry, especially on herring, in negotiating the new European Union marketing regulation. I was able to secure that deal because I spoke as a member of the UK delegation with 10 votes at the council. Fourthly, while the new FIFG regulation is not perfect, it will help to support key sectors without adding to fishing capacity—that is important. Crucially, we have insisted on measures to stop other European fleets increasing their catching capacity. That is a matter of great concern throughout the industry. Finally, I have been able to secure additional North sea prawn quota for the current year. That has now been agreed by the European Union and will enable us to keep the under 10 m fishery open and to enhance the opportunities for others in the crucial pre-Christmas period. As constituency member for Port Seton and Dunbar, I am particularly pleased to have been able to secure that package.", "EditedTextHTML": "Like you, Presiding Officer, I have spent a long time campaigning for a Scottish Parliament. I happen to have the odd distinction of being a direct descendant of a member of the previous Scottish Parliament, Patrick Home of Renton. He voted against the incorporating union of 1707, so he has been vindicated at last.

I welcome this opportunity to debate sea fisheries in advance of next week's meeting of the Fisheries Council. I hope that we will have regular opportunities to discuss this important Scottish industry in the Parliament. The main business of the December council is to set total allowable catches and quotas for next year. I will come to that important matter later, but I should like to take this opportunity to reflect on my first five months as fisheries minister and to touch on a number of sea fisheries issues.

The Executive fully understands the importance of fisheries to the Scottish economy, particularly in the north-east and in the Highlands and Islands. Scotland has the lion's share of the UK fishing industry and so it is only natural that devolution has pushed fisheries to the forefront of the political agenda. I welcome that change.

It is worth reflecting on the economic and political significance of the Scottish sea fishing industry. Landings into Scotland by all vessels in 1998 were valued at more than £320 million. Scottish boats also landed more than £100 million- worth of fish abroad. More than 7,000 people are employed in the catching sector, with similar numbers involved in processing and other downstream activities. Many of those jobs bring substantial benefits to remote rural economies.

The Scottish Executive and, I am sure, the Parliament recognise the importance of fishing. It is no coincidence that the first substantive debate in the Parliament was about fisheries, albeit about the vexed and rather contrived issue of the

adjacent waters boundary. [MEMBERS: \"Shame.\"]

I was pleased when I went to the October Fisheries Council to be the first Scottish Executive minister to attend and speak at a European Council of Ministers meeting. As a member of the UK team, I was involved in casting 10 votes in the council. In that circumstance, I can apply real influence on behalf of Scottish fishing communities and I intend to continue to do that.

Having heard the reaction to my comment a few seconds ago, I hope that we will not waste valuable time today on the boundary question. I know—because I come from that part of the country—that Scottish boats have recently had a profitable time fishing for prawns off the Northumberland coast. I reached an agreed position with my counterpart in the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food last week to provide greater flexibility for Scottish pelagic boats to fish for sea bass off Cornwall—a long way south of any line that there might be in the North sea. What really matters to the Scottish fishing industry is the right to work in fishing grounds right round the coast of the UK and elsewhere. That is far more relevant to our fishermen than a theoretical debate about the maritime boundary of the jurisdiction of Duns sheriff court.

It is a great privilege to be the fisheries minister in this first Scottish Executive. My approach to the job has been to work with the fishing industry, so I am grateful to those in the industry, particularly the Scottish Fishermen's Federation, for their advice and co-operation. I am determined to be as open and inclusive as possible. I am especially pleased to have been able to set up the Scottish inshore fisheries advisory group to give the fishing industry direct input to policy formulation and to help us to deliver policy that is workable and practical. Early indications are that SIFAG is working well. We have brought together a wide range of interests, including fishermen, scientists and people from environmental and economic development agencies, all of whom are pulling in the same direction.

The Executive has demonstrated commitment to local management. I know that that is a priority for all parties, as well as for the fishing industry. I have given approval to the Shetland regulating order and hope to see it implemented shortly. An application from Orkney for a regulating order has been received and is now being discussed and refined. Similar proposals are being worked up for Solway, the western isles, Highlands and Fife. It is evident that there is growing interest in that way forward. My aim is to encourage local management leading to lighter control and regulation from the centre. I hope that there will be consensus on that.

We have begun to fulfil the partnership commitment to local management of fisheries after just five months in office. I know that there are a number of difficult issues to be resolved in the fisheries field and I will come to some of those later. However, the general picture is a positive one. The revenues of Scottish vessels last year were at their highest since 1987. Since 1992, total revenues have increased by around 28 per cent in real terms. White fish prices remain high and the pelagic sector continues to develop new markets.

We should bear in mind the fact that the financial benefits of fishing do not come without a heavy price. We must never forget the hazards that fishermen experience and the tragic loss of life and serious injuries that can occur in this industry. This year has been no exception—six Scottish fishermen have lost their lives working in this dangerous industry. We owe it to fishermen's families and to fishing communities to do everything possible to reduce the risk of such tragedies.

I have written today to invite the Scottish Fishermen's Federation to meet me to discuss a new approach to safety. I intend to establish a new Scottish sea fishing safety scheme, based on the fisheries structural funds available to me now that the new financial instrument for fisheries guidance regulation is in place. I will discuss the detail of the scheme with the industry and with the Maritime and Coastguard Agency. We will not be bound by precedent and we will wish to deliver a scheme tailored to Scottish needs.

I want the scheme to focus on the delivery of a safety culture in the fishing industry. It is all very well to have a list of safety items that can be funded, but the need is to raise awareness of safety and to improve training to prevent accidents and to save lives. One important area where the safety record is of particular concern—the under 12 m boats—was excluded from the previous scheme operated by MAFF. I am determined that our new Scottish safety scheme will cover the whole fleet, including smaller boats.

In consultation with the industry, we will consider the priorities and, subject to the availability of resources, I hope to be able to begin to implement the new Scottish sea fishing safety scheme before the end of the coming financial year.

On a wider front, there is still much to be done to maximise the potential of the fishing industry. We have already achieved a great deal in the few months since the Parliament took responsibility for Scotland's fisheries. I cite five examples.

First, I have mentioned the inshore fisheries advisory group and the Shetland regulating order. Secondly, we have undertaken a substantial review of pelagic management arrangements and we have proposed relaxations in the regulatory

burden to increase the flexibility and competitiveness of our pelagic fleet. We have agreed to return to that subject next year. I am determined to find the right balance between deregulation and necessary controls.

Thirdly, we have secured a good deal for the Scottish industry, especially on herring, in negotiating the new European Union marketing regulation. I was able to secure that deal because I spoke as a member of the UK delegation with 10 votes at the council. Fourthly, while the new FIFG regulation is not perfect, it will help to support key sectors without adding to fishing capacity—that is important. Crucially, we have insisted on measures to stop other European fleets increasing their catching capacity. That is a matter of great concern throughout the industry.

Finally, I have been able to secure additional North sea prawn quota for the current year. That has now been agreed by the European Union and will enable us to keep the under 10 m fishery open and to enhance the opportunities for others in the crucial pre-Christmas period. As constituency member for Port Seton and Dunbar, I am particularly pleased to have been able to secure that package.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C713398", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 118.0, "ContributionID": 713398, "EditedText": "The minister mentioned the North sea fishing situation; could he also mention the Clyde fishing area, where prawns are very important?", "EditedTextHTML": "The minister mentioned the North sea fishing situation; could he also mention the Clyde fishing area, where prawns are very important?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2100E64P254C713405", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Home Robertson, John", "ID": 2100, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Lothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "John Home Robertson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Home Robertson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 132.0, "ContributionID": 713405, "EditedText": "I have taken a number of interventions. I am making rather a long speech. I have a notion that Mr Lochhead will get his chance to speak, but I will take one intervention from him.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have taken a number of interventions. I am making rather a long speech. I have a notion that Mr Lochhead will get his chance to speak, but I will take one intervention from him.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2100E64P254C713407", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Home Robertson, John", "ID": 2100, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Lothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "John Home Robertson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Home Robertson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 136.0, "ContributionID": 713407, "EditedText": "I do not accept that scenario. It is essential to bring our pelagic fleet into line with our multi-annual guidance programme targets. If we do not do that, we cannot expect anyone else to do it. I recognise that this is difficult, and Mr Lochhead will appreciate that we have been having some fairly vigorous discussions with the industry on the matter. As I said, we are determined to do our best to get the best possible deal for the industry. I am sure that what I said earlier about the better outlook for and better management of the pelagic fishery will be welcomed by Scottish pelagic fishermen, although I acknowledge that some pain is being inflicted as a result of the engine power regulations and so on. The picture for the key demersal stocks in the North sea—cod, whiting and haddock—is pretty bad. Those stocks, which are jointly managed by the EU and Norway, were also the subject of negotiations last week. On cod and whiting, my impression is that fishermen recognise the validity of the scientific advice. The fish are simply not there to be caught. This year, we have been able to take only 55 per cent of the UK's cod quota, because the fishermen could not find them. On haddock, the picture is rather different. This year there is the prospect of a good recruitment to the fishery from a particularly strong year class. That is why we pressed hard this year for an increase in the haddock quota, which is jointly agreed between the EU and Norway. We must act to protect the small fish from that good year class. Quota reductions in isolation will not suffice. We need technical measures to reduce wasteful discards and to help the small fish to escape from the nets. Measures such as compulsory square-mesh panels and narrower twine would help escapes. I intend to argue for their introduction in Scotland, the UK and throughout the European Union. I am very encouraged by the positive attitude of Scottish fishermen to those ideas. We have been successful in securing a higher TAC for North sea haddock by giving the assurance that we will introduce such technical conservation measures. That must be helpful. The initial proposal for the haddock TAC was 65,000 tonnes, covering both the EU and Norway. We have been able to make a case for an increase to 73,000 tonnes and to secure a 7,700-tonne quota transfer from Norway. That is a major success, and I pay tribute to those of my officials who were involved in the negotiations. As a result, the extra UK share for North sea haddock over the initial advice will be some 11,000 tonnes, most of which—probably up to 10,000 tonnes—will go to Scottish boats. That extra catch is worth more than £13 million at current prices to the UK fishing industry. We need to take a responsible approach if the key fish stocks are to recover. Our approach on haddock has shown that such a strategy can bear fruit. That is good news. It is important to rely on scientific advice when taking decisions on TACs. We need an objective, informed picture of the long-term health of fish stocks. That is the rationale that I will take to the remainder of the TAC process, including the negotiations on the important west of Scotland stocks. The final decisions on those will be taken at the December Fisheries Council, to be held in Brussels next week. I will represent Scotland's interests there. We must beware of short-term gain in quota that would be incompatible with longer-term conservation of stocks for our fishermen. Our fishermen understand that point, although I am aware of the frustration that is caused by fluctuations in quota. Together with the industry, we will look at options for ironing out such fluctuations, with a view to taking those options to the European Commission. That will be timely, with the 2002 review of the CFP on the horizon. My key objective at the December Fisheries Council in Brussels will be to do all that I can to maximise the opportunities available to Scottish fishermen, consistent with maintaining sustainable stocks. Our experience in the Norway negotiations shows that that approach can work.I urge the chamber to reject the nationalists' amendment, which is designed to weaken our negotiating strength in Europe by wrecking our partnership with MAFF, and the bizarre Tory amendment, which seeks to relocate the English fishery department to Banff and Buchan. I invite the Parliament to endorse our negotiating position and to support the Executive's motion. I move,That the Parliament calls upon the Scottish Executive to seek the best possible outcome for Scottish fishermen, consistent with sustainable fishing, from the forthcoming negotiations leading up to the December Fisheries Council.", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not accept that scenario. It is essential to bring our pelagic fleet into line with our multi-annual guidance programme targets. If we do not do that, we cannot expect anyone else to do it. I recognise that this is difficult, and Mr Lochhead will appreciate that we have been having some fairly vigorous discussions with the industry on the matter. As I said, we are determined to do our best to get the best possible deal for the industry. I am sure that what I said earlier about the better outlook for and better management of the pelagic fishery will be welcomed by Scottish pelagic fishermen, although I acknowledge that some pain is being inflicted as a result of the engine power regulations and so on.

The picture for the key demersal stocks in the North sea—cod, whiting and haddock—is pretty bad. Those stocks, which are jointly managed by the EU and Norway, were also the subject of negotiations last week. On cod and whiting, my impression is that fishermen recognise the validity of the scientific advice. The fish are simply not there to be caught. This year, we have been able to take only 55 per cent of the UK's cod quota, because the fishermen could not find them.

On haddock, the picture is rather different. This year there is the prospect of a good recruitment to the fishery from a particularly strong year class. That is why we pressed hard this year for an increase in the haddock quota, which is jointly agreed between the EU and Norway.

We must act to protect the small fish from that good year class. Quota reductions in isolation will not suffice. We need technical measures to reduce wasteful discards and to help the small fish to escape from the nets. Measures such as compulsory square-mesh panels and narrower twine would help escapes. I intend to argue for their introduction in Scotland, the UK and throughout the European Union.

I am very encouraged by the positive attitude of Scottish fishermen to those ideas. We have been successful in securing a higher TAC for North sea haddock by giving the assurance that we will introduce such technical conservation measures. That must be helpful.

The initial proposal for the haddock TAC was 65,000 tonnes, covering both the EU and Norway. We have been able to make a case for an increase to 73,000 tonnes and to secure a 7,700-tonne quota transfer from Norway. That is a major success, and I pay tribute to those of my officials who were involved in the negotiations. As a result, the extra UK share for North sea haddock over the initial advice will be some 11,000 tonnes, most of which—probably up to 10,000 tonnes—will go to Scottish boats. That extra catch is worth more than £13 million at current prices to the UK fishing industry.

We need to take a responsible approach if the key fish stocks are to recover. Our approach on haddock has shown that such a strategy can bear fruit. That is good news. It is important to rely on scientific advice when taking decisions on TACs. We need an objective, informed picture of the long-term health of fish stocks. That is the rationale that I will take to the remainder of the TAC process, including the negotiations on the important west of Scotland stocks. The final decisions on those will be taken at the December Fisheries Council, to be held in Brussels next week. I will represent Scotland's interests there.

We must beware of short-term gain in quota that would be incompatible with longer-term conservation of stocks for our fishermen. Our fishermen understand that point, although I am aware of the frustration that is caused by fluctuations in quota. Together with the industry, we will look at options for ironing out such fluctuations, with a view to taking those options to the European Commission. That will be timely, with the 2002 review of the CFP on the horizon.

My key objective at the December Fisheries Council in Brussels will be to do all that I can to maximise the opportunities available to Scottish fishermen, consistent with maintaining sustainable stocks. Our experience in the Norway negotiations

shows that that approach can work.

I urge the chamber to reject the nationalists' amendment, which is designed to weaken our negotiating strength in Europe by wrecking our partnership with MAFF, and the bizarre Tory amendment, which seeks to relocate the English fishery department to Banff and Buchan. I invite the Parliament to endorse our negotiating position and to support the Executive's motion.

I move,

That the Parliament calls upon the Scottish Executive to seek the best possible outcome for Scottish fishermen, consistent with sustainable fishing, from the forthcoming negotiations leading up to the December Fisheries Council.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2140E187P335C713416", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Rumbles, Mike", "ID": 2140, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Rumbles", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Rumbles: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 157.0, "ContributionID": 713416, "EditedText": "I will do that.Some astonishing claims are doing the rounds in advance of the negotiations. Some people would have us withdraw from co-operation with our European partners. That is the subject of a large amount of correspondence, in the north, in The Press and Journal. I would like to quote one of my constituents from Stonehaven, Mr Mike Park, the chair of the Scottish White Fish Producers Association. In a letter to The Press and Journal he says: \"The only real possibility in the near future of the industry being allowed to catch more fish is if we allow the stocks to recover. So let's start speaking about technical measures and other possible step, such as moving away from quotas, to enable this year's big brood of haddock to survive. So let's adopt a strategy that can have a long-term objective.\" Mr Park is right: sorting out the problems of the fishing industry cannot be achieved by walking away from co-operation with our neighbours in Europe. Part of the solution lies with using the strength of the UK in our negotiations to reform the common fisheries policy in 2002. The Scottish Fishermen's Federation is being particularly helpful and constructive in its willingness, even unilaterally, to adopt additional conservation measures. I will now turn to the SNP amendment. Without doubt, Scotland is better off in Europe by using the weighted voting system at the Council of Ministers, which provides us with 10 votes, as the minister pointed out, as opposed to the three votes that we would be entitled to as a small nation, like Ireland, Denmark or Finland.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will do that.

Some astonishing claims are doing the rounds in advance of the negotiations. Some people would have us withdraw from co-operation with our European partners. That is the subject of a large amount of correspondence, in the north, in The Press and Journal.

I would like to quote one of my constituents from Stonehaven, Mr Mike Park, the chair of the Scottish White Fish Producers Association. In a letter to The Press and Journal he says:

\"The only real possibility in the near future of the industry being allowed to catch more fish is if we allow the stocks to recover. So let's start speaking about technical measures and other possible step, such as moving away from quotas, to enable this year's big brood of haddock to survive. So let's adopt a strategy that can have a long-term objective.\"

Mr Park is right: sorting out the problems of the fishing industry cannot be achieved by walking away from co-operation with our neighbours in Europe. Part of the solution lies with using the strength of the UK in our negotiations to reform the common fisheries policy in 2002. The Scottish Fishermen's Federation is being particularly helpful and constructive in its willingness, even unilaterally, to adopt additional conservation measures.

I will now turn to the SNP amendment. Without doubt, Scotland is better off in Europe by using the weighted voting system at the Council of Ministers, which provides us with 10 votes, as the minister pointed out, as opposed to the three votes that we would be entitled to as a small nation, like Ireland, Denmark or Finland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C713417", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Alex Salmond (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 159.0, "ContributionID": 713417, "EditedText": "The member will remember that his party is in opposition at Westminster. I was present at a debate on fisheries at Westminster—there were nine members in total—when a Liberal Democrat spokesman had a policy agenda that, in certain aspects, was different from that of the Labour minister. Can Mr Rumbles conceive of a situation where an English fisheries minister and a Scottish fisheries minister might have different views? In such a case, whose voice would be heard in European negotiations?", "EditedTextHTML": "The member will remember that his party is in opposition at Westminster. I was present at a debate on fisheries at Westminster—there were nine members in total—when a Liberal Democrat spokesman had a policy agenda that, in certain aspects, was different from that of the Labour minister. Can Mr Rumbles conceive of a situation where an English fisheries minister and a Scottish fisheries minister might have different views? In such a case, whose voice would be heard in European negotiations?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1985E207P501C713435", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hamilton, Mr Duncan", "ID": 1985, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Hamilton: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 197.0, "ContributionID": 713435, "EditedText": "It appears that the Executive will not do a lot. At the very time when the west coast does not need this reduction in quotas, it has got it. I want to talk about the issue of compensation for scallop farmers. There is an idea that the Government can do nothing about the situation, but that is not true. The regulation that Mr Home Robertson referred to earlier says that member states may grant compensation to fishermen and owners of vessels for the temporary cessation of activities in the event of unforeseeable circumstances, particularly those caused by biological factors. The Executive could compensate the scallop fishermen if it chose to but it has chosen not to. Why does it not have the guts to say that that is the case? The people in the industry know that the Executive is not committed to helping them out. What imaginative proposals or legislation is the Executive bringing forward? The minister knows that massive capital investment is needed if the industry is to diversify. The case we talked about at the meeting on Monday would need £30,000. The problem is that the enterprise structure requires that 75 per cent of that money be put up by those seeking to diversify. What creative proposal does the Executive have to ensure that the problem is solved?", "EditedTextHTML": "It appears that the Executive will not do a lot. At the very time when the west coast does not need this reduction in quotas, it has got it.

I want to talk about the issue of compensation for scallop farmers. There is an idea that the Government can do nothing about the situation, but that is not true. The regulation that Mr Home Robertson referred to earlier says that member states may grant compensation to fishermen and owners of vessels for the temporary cessation of activities in the event of unforeseeable circumstances, particularly those caused by biological factors. The Executive could compensate the scallop fishermen if it chose to but it has chosen not to. Why does it not have the guts to say that that is the case? The people in the industry know that the Executive is not committed to helping them out.

What imaginative proposals or legislation is the Executive bringing forward? The minister knows that massive capital investment is needed if the industry is to diversify. The case we talked about at the meeting on Monday would need £30,000. The problem is that the enterprise structure requires that 75 per cent of that money be put up by those seeking to diversify. What creative proposal does the Executive have to ensure that the problem is solved?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1770E82P108C713438", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Thomson, Elaine", "ID": 1770, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Thomson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Elaine Thomson (Aberdeen North) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 204.0, "ContributionID": 713438, "EditedText": "Fishing has long been an important part of traditional economic life in Scotland, especially in Aberdeen and the north-east. If managed well, it should continue to be one of Scotland's sustainable industries, providing high-quality, healthy food for generations. However, if it is to continue to be a sustainable industry, managing fish stocks effectively will be crucial. That depends on good science, such as that provided by the marine laboratories. We in the north-east are lucky to have the Aberdeen Marine Laboratory, which plays a vital role in providing accurate and detailed information on marine ecosystems, allowing us to manage fish stocks and to make accurate forecasts for use in quota negotiations. We must continue to learn more about the various species that are important for commercial fisheries, so that the quotas are negotiated and set on the basis of sound science. Recently, the haddock quota was increased. That was the result of good scientific data showing that haddock had had a record breeding year. That may be connected to the recent discovery by the Oban marine laboratory of coral colonies on some of the older offshore oil and gas installations. It has been suggested that such colonies could provide a better habitat for fish, but gaining such information will depend on good scientific data and the work done by the industry and by the laboratories. In future, the industry will benefit through working partnerships involving the scientific community, the catchers and processors, and the different levels, national and European, of Government. For instance, some 60 per cent of fish processing is done in Grampian, and that has been very hard hit by the effects of the European Union waste water directive. However, different bodies working together in Aberdeen found a solution that protected the industry and the environment. Solutions for quota problems must ensure, in the same way, the survival of the industry while also protecting the environment. We need to develop a strategic framework for the fishing industry, as that will be important in securing the long-term viability of the industry. The introduction of square-mesh nets will also be important. We know that Scottish fish landings represent 68 per cent of United Kingdom landings by volume and 60 per cent by value. However, we need to recognise fish and shellfish as prized luxury products to be treated accordingly. That will help to add value to fish and fish products. Many Aberdeen families tend to regard fish as an everyday food that should be cheap and plentiful. I would argue that we need to prize fish more highly than that if we wish to have an industry that is sustainable in the long term. Fish fits well into modern lifestyles and it should be the ultimate fast food. The advent of the Scottish Parliament can only be good for the fishing sector. This is the second debate that I have taken part in on the fishing industry, and I know that the Scottish Fishermen's Federation and other fish industry bodies are able to lobby the Parliament easily and regularly, ensuring that I and others are well informed. Fish will have a much higher profile in this Parliament than was ever possible at Westminster, which is correct given the relatively higher importance of fishing in Scotland. One of the hallmarks of the Labour Government since it was elected in the United Kingdom in 1997—and of the Labour Government in the Scottish Parliament—is a willingness to consult and discuss. That has been shown in the setting up of the Scottish inshore fisheries advisory group. For the first time, the fishing industry has been directly involved in policy development. Working together can only be positive; it is a move that is to be welcomed.", "EditedTextHTML": "Fishing has long been an important part of traditional economic life in Scotland, especially in Aberdeen and the north-east. If managed well, it should continue to be one of Scotland's sustainable industries, providing high-quality, healthy food for generations.

However, if it is to continue to be a sustainable industry, managing fish stocks effectively will be crucial. That depends on good science, such as that provided by the marine laboratories. We in the north-east are lucky to have the Aberdeen Marine Laboratory, which plays a vital role in providing accurate and detailed information on marine ecosystems, allowing us to manage fish stocks and to make accurate forecasts for use in quota negotiations. We must continue to learn more about the various species that are important for commercial fisheries, so that the quotas are negotiated and set on the basis of sound science.

Recently, the haddock quota was increased. That was the result of good scientific data showing that haddock had had a record breeding year. That may be connected to the recent discovery by the Oban marine laboratory of coral colonies on some of the older offshore oil and gas installations. It has been suggested that such colonies could provide a better habitat for fish, but gaining such information will depend on good scientific data and the work done by the industry and by the laboratories.

In future, the industry will benefit through working partnerships involving the scientific

community, the catchers and processors, and the different levels, national and European, of Government. For instance, some 60 per cent of fish processing is done in Grampian, and that has been very hard hit by the effects of the European Union waste water directive. However, different bodies working together in Aberdeen found a solution that protected the industry and the environment. Solutions for quota problems must ensure, in the same way, the survival of the industry while also protecting the environment.

We need to develop a strategic framework for the fishing industry, as that will be important in securing the long-term viability of the industry. The introduction of square-mesh nets will also be important.

We know that Scottish fish landings represent 68 per cent of United Kingdom landings by volume and 60 per cent by value. However, we need to recognise fish and shellfish as prized luxury products to be treated accordingly. That will help to add value to fish and fish products. Many Aberdeen families tend to regard fish as an everyday food that should be cheap and plentiful. I would argue that we need to prize fish more highly than that if we wish to have an industry that is sustainable in the long term. Fish fits well into modern lifestyles and it should be the ultimate fast food.

The advent of the Scottish Parliament can only be good for the fishing sector. This is the second debate that I have taken part in on the fishing industry, and I know that the Scottish Fishermen's Federation and other fish industry bodies are able to lobby the Parliament easily and regularly, ensuring that I and others are well informed. Fish will have a much higher profile in this Parliament than was ever possible at Westminster, which is correct given the relatively higher importance of fishing in Scotland.

One of the hallmarks of the Labour Government since it was elected in the United Kingdom in 1997—and of the Labour Government in the Scottish Parliament—is a willingness to consult and discuss. That has been shown in the setting up of the Scottish inshore fisheries advisory group. For the first time, the fishing industry has been directly involved in policy development. Working together can only be positive; it is a move that is to be welcomed.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1892E34P73C713443", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Fergusson, Alex", "ID": 1892, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Fergusson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Fergusson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 216.0, "ContributionID": 713443, "EditedText": "I am grateful to Dr Ewing for giving way. In the minister's introductory speech, he spoke with great pride of making his first speech in the Scottish Parliament, for which he had always campaigned, and of being the fisheries minister. Does Dr Ewing agree that it is almost disgraceful that he should choose to denigrate the desire of this Parliament to discuss that fishing boundary early in its history and that it was out of place for a minister of this Executive to do so?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful to Dr Ewing for giving way.

In the minister's introductory speech, he spoke with great pride of making his first speech in the Scottish Parliament, for which he had always campaigned, and of being the fisheries minister. Does Dr Ewing agree that it is almost disgraceful that he should choose to denigrate the desire of this Parliament to discuss that fishing boundary early in its history and that it was out of place for a minister of this Executive to do so?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1878E208P502C713444", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Dr Winnie", "ID": 1878, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Winnie Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 218.0, "ContributionID": 713444, "EditedText": "The member will not be surprised to learn that I thoroughly agree with him. I was a member of the European Parliament for 24 years, during which time I served almost continuously on the fishery committee. During that time I saw many sell-outs, but I will mention only two that stand out—they involved sell-outs to Spain. The first was the 10-year revision of the common fisheries policy, during which only three issues could properly be revised: the Shetland box and two non-controversial issues. Instead of revising those issues, a total revision of the common fisheries policy took place which suited Spain but not the Scots or, probably, the English. In law, there needed to be an intergovernmental conference to agree those alterations, but there was none. I was the only member of that Parliament to object. The UK did not. I thought that new Labour said that it would deal with quota hopping. Alex Salmond in the House of Commons and I in the European Parliament warned that the proposed legislation would be discriminatory because it was based on nationality. We asked for the legislation to be based on residence, which would not have been discriminatory. We are now seeing massive claims for compensation. Is there a hidden agenda in selling out to Spain? Was it Madame Thatcher's juste-retour in getting back a lump of money, or has it something to do with Gibraltar? Writing of the union, Benjamin Franklin said that England has caught Scotland fast and has treated her with utter contumely. I do not blame the English people, who are full of good will towards Scotland, but the politicians of the unionist parties in successive Governments who have sold out our fishing interests. Although not all Scots have fishing relatives, every Scot is deeply sympathetic to fishermen, who bravely put the fish on their tables. The Scots will not forget this series of sell-outs.", "EditedTextHTML": "The member will not be surprised to learn that I thoroughly agree with him.

I was a member of the European Parliament for 24 years, during which time I served almost continuously on the fishery committee. During that time I saw many sell-outs, but I will mention only two that stand out—they involved sell-outs to Spain.

The first was the 10-year revision of the common fisheries policy, during which only three issues could properly be revised: the Shetland box and two non-controversial issues. Instead of revising those issues, a total revision of the common fisheries policy took place which suited Spain but not the Scots or, probably, the English. In law, there needed to be an intergovernmental conference to agree those alterations, but there was none. I was the only member of that Parliament to object. The UK did not.

I thought that new Labour said that it would deal with quota hopping. Alex Salmond in the House of Commons and I in the European Parliament warned that the proposed legislation would be discriminatory because it was based on nationality. We asked for the legislation to be based on residence, which would not have been discriminatory. We are now seeing massive claims for compensation.

Is there a hidden agenda in selling out to Spain? Was it Madame Thatcher's juste-retour in getting back a lump of money, or has it something to do with Gibraltar?

Writing of the union, Benjamin Franklin said that England has caught Scotland fast and has treated her with utter contumely. I do not blame the English people, who are full of good will towards Scotland, but the politicians of the unionist parties in successive Governments who have sold out our fishing interests. Although not all Scots have fishing relatives, every Scot is deeply sympathetic to fishermen, who bravely put the fish on their tables. The Scots will not forget this series of sell-outs.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C713449", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Murray Tosh (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 231.0, "ContributionID": 713449, "EditedText": "It is with some trepidation that I rise to speak on this topic, as it is one on which many members are better informed than I am. However, regional members must learn about the issues that affect the areas they represent and I have spent some time during the past few months trying to get a hold on fishing issues. In the briefing material that fishermen send to members of Parliament, they make a number of cogent points, some of which the minister touched on today, and some of which he did not.For example, I am sure everyone welcomes the point the minister made about pursuing the issue of smaller square-mesh panels. I did not quite grasp what will be done about that or what the time scale for it will be; neither did I grasp whether this initiative will, if necessary, be introduced only in Scotland. The minister said that he will pursue its introduction in the UK and Europe, but if he cannot persuade the UK Government or Europe to implement the proposal, will it be introduced in Scotland? The fishing industry would like more detail on that. Fishermen to whom I have spoken have not disputed the principle of sustainability. Their concerns have been about how sustainability can be established and about specific quotas. There was great concern about the haddock quota, which has—as the minister said—been amended as a result of talks with Norway. Does the amendment of the quota mean that the criticisms of how the fishing industry assesses quotas and of the science that applies to the establishment of quotas are justified? Is it valid that decisions that stand for a year are taken in November and December, and that no on-going measurement is used? Are we measuring such things properly? How scientific are the quotas? The minister did not address those points. One thing that struck me from the press coverage of the talks with Norway was that our fishermen did not look for any increase in their cod quotas. They recognise the difficulty that cod fishing is in. During the talks, however, the Norwegians' cod quota was tripled. That left Scottish fishermen wondering whether there is a marine equivalent of the fabled and legendary level playing field; they got nothing extra and the Norwegians' allocation was tripled. There are many other related matters, such as funding for modernisation and renewal of the fleet. The fishermen do not say that they necessarily want massive subsidies, but they want the same treatment as their competitors in other countries. There is no level playing field for that, either. I return to whether there should be separate Scottish regulations and conservation measures. The minister touched on the issue about Berwickshire.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is with some trepidation that I rise to speak on this topic, as it is one on which many members are better informed than I am. However, regional members must learn about the issues that affect the areas they represent and I have spent some time during the past few months trying to get a hold on fishing issues. In the briefing material that fishermen send to members of Parliament, they make a number of cogent points, some of which the minister touched on today, and some of which

he did not.

For example, I am sure everyone welcomes the point the minister made about pursuing the issue of smaller square-mesh panels. I did not quite grasp what will be done about that or what the time scale for it will be; neither did I grasp whether this initiative will, if necessary, be introduced only in Scotland. The minister said that he will pursue its introduction in the UK and Europe, but if he cannot persuade the UK Government or Europe to implement the proposal, will it be introduced in Scotland? The fishing industry would like more detail on that.

Fishermen to whom I have spoken have not disputed the principle of sustainability. Their concerns have been about how sustainability can be established and about specific quotas. There was great concern about the haddock quota, which has—as the minister said—been amended as a result of talks with Norway. Does the amendment of the quota mean that the criticisms of how the fishing industry assesses quotas and of the science that applies to the establishment of quotas are justified? Is it valid that decisions that stand for a year are taken in November and December, and that no on-going measurement is used? Are we measuring such things properly? How scientific are the quotas? The minister did not address those points.

One thing that struck me from the press coverage of the talks with Norway was that our fishermen did not look for any increase in their cod quotas. They recognise the difficulty that cod fishing is in. During the talks, however, the Norwegians' cod quota was tripled. That left Scottish fishermen wondering whether there is a marine equivalent of the fabled and legendary level playing field; they got nothing extra and the Norwegians' allocation was tripled.

There are many other related matters, such as funding for modernisation and renewal of the fleet. The fishermen do not say that they necessarily want massive subsidies, but they want the same treatment as their competitors in other countries. There is no level playing field for that, either.

I return to whether there should be separate Scottish regulations and conservation measures. The minister touched on the issue about Berwickshire.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2100E64P254C713453", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Home Robertson, John", "ID": 2100, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Lothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "John Home Robertson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Home Robertson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 240.0, "ContributionID": 713453, "EditedText": "That is a point I have taken up personally with Commissioner Fischler. It is imperative that the regulations should be applied fairly and right across the European Union. I have that assurance from him.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is a point I have taken up personally with Commissioner Fischler. It is imperative that the regulations should be applied fairly and right across the European Union. I have that assurance from him.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C713459", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Davidson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 253.0, "ContributionID": 713459, "EditedText": "I am sorry, but Lewis was winning until he mentioned the co-operation and flexibility of the Scottish Executive. The Scottish Executive, in the form of Sarah Boyack, threw our concerns back in our faces in this very chamber several months ago. She was not for moving. Consider regulation; people have talked today about over-regulation—", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry, but Lewis was winning until he mentioned the co-operation and flexibility of the Scottish Executive. The Scottish Executive, in the form of Sarah Boyack, threw our concerns back in our faces in this very chamber several months ago. She was not for moving.

Consider regulation; people have talked today about over-regulation—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C713460", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 255.0, "ContributionID": 713460, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C713463", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Davidson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 261.0, "ContributionID": 713463, "EditedText": "We did not suggest that the ministry should move. We are suggesting that the operating front of the industry should be relocated to the north-east, which is the base for the bulk of British fish landings and most of the Scottish organisations. We are saying, \"Yes, let us look at it.\" That is what we propose.", "EditedTextHTML": "We did not suggest that the ministry should move. We are suggesting that the operating front of the industry should be relocated to the north-east, which is the base for the bulk of British fish landings and most of the Scottish organisations. We are saying, \"Yes, let us look at it.\" That is what we propose.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2140E187P335C713468", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Rumbles, Mike", "ID": 2140, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Rumbles", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Rumbles: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 271.0, "ContributionID": 713468, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C713469", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 273.0, "ContributionID": 713469, "EditedText": "I am afraid that the member has already sat down, Mr Rumbles.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am afraid that the member has already sat down, Mr Rumbles.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2100E64P254C713471", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Home Robertson, John", "ID": 2100, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Lothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "John Home Robertson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Home Robertson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 278.0, "ContributionID": 713471, "EditedText": "Does the member acknowledge that the important thing is to ensure that our fishermen continue to have access to their fishing grounds? Does he welcome the fact, as I pointed out earlier, that Berwickshire fishermen were fishing recently off the Northumbrian coast and that people from the north-east of Scotland were fishing off Cornwall? That is what matters.", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the member acknowledge that the important thing is to ensure that our fishermen continue to have access to their fishing grounds? Does he welcome the fact, as I pointed out earlier, that Berwickshire fishermen were fishing recently off the Northumbrian coast and that people from the north-east of Scotland were fishing off Cornwall? That is what matters.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1888E265P358C713472", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morgan, Alasdair", "ID": 1888, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Galloway and Upper Nithsdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morgan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alasdair Morgan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 280.0, "ContributionID": 713472, "EditedText": "I agree that that is an important issue. However, I draw the minister's attention to the representatives of the fishing industry, who believe, like us, that the boundary issue is important. If the minister would sort out the matter quickly, as he could if he made the proper representations to his colleagues at Westminster, we could put the boundary issue to one side once and for all and get on with dealing with other issues. Otherwise, I fear that we will begin to regard the boundary issue as symptomatic of the minister's position. The minister referred to local management being developed in Scotland. I agree that we need that, but we also need its counterpart, zonal management within the European Union framework, as recommended by the European Committee. I am aware that the minister referred to that issue later on, as did Richard Lochhead. The European Committee's other recommendations are also important. It is certainly important that we scrap annual renegotiations, to which many members referred, and consider some kind of continuous assessment, which would be more in line with a medium-term strategy. I am glad that the minister brought the argument for further technical conservation measures into his speech. The minister referred, I think, to ironing out quota fluctuations, but we must go further than that. We need a longer-term management strategy. Richard Lochhead referred to the fact that the UK minister voted against the November settlement, which the minister then did his best to defend. I look forward to the response from the Minister for Rural Affairs. Mr Home Robertson also referred to the Hague preferences, as did Lewis Macdonald, and to the need for them to be invoked if necessary. I invite the minister, in his summing up, to say whether the UK minister would invoke them, or would at least give Mr Home Robertson permission to do so. Jamie McGrigor started off his speech with the important matter of scallops. He referred to the need for end product testing, instead of the current regime. There is a good case for that. There is a considerable market for scallops with the gonads removed. In Kirkcudbright, in my constituency, there is a considerable industry around that product, which is sold to France. However, currently the industry is excluded—along with all the others—even though those scallops pass all the tests. I wrote to the minister on the subject some two months ago, but I am still waiting for a response. Jamie McGrigor also referred to the need for further scientific information and for the industry to have confidence in such information. There is a suspicion that research in many areas is underfunded. That is another matter which the minister could examine. As other members said, the Tory amendment is a bit of a joke.", "EditedTextHTML": "I agree that that is an important issue. However, I draw the minister's attention to the representatives of the fishing industry, who believe, like us, that the boundary issue is important. If the minister would sort out the matter quickly, as he could if he made the proper representations to his colleagues at Westminster, we could put the boundary issue to one side once and for all and get on with dealing with other issues. Otherwise, I fear that we will begin to regard the boundary issue as symptomatic of the minister's position.

The minister referred to local management being developed in Scotland. I agree that we need that, but we also need its counterpart, zonal management within the European Union framework, as recommended by the European Committee. I am aware that the minister referred to that issue later on, as did Richard Lochhead.

The European Committee's other recommendations are also important. It is certainly important that we scrap annual renegotiations, to which many members referred, and consider some kind of continuous assessment, which would be more in line with a medium-term strategy.

I am glad that the minister brought the argument for further technical conservation measures into his speech.

The minister referred, I think, to ironing out quota fluctuations, but we must go further than that. We need a longer-term management strategy.

Richard Lochhead referred to the fact that the UK minister voted against the November settlement, which the minister then did his best to defend. I look forward to the response from the Minister for Rural Affairs. Mr Home Robertson also referred to the Hague preferences, as did Lewis Macdonald, and to the need for them to be invoked if necessary. I invite the minister, in his summing up, to say whether the UK minister would invoke them, or would at least give Mr Home Robertson permission to do so.

Jamie McGrigor started off his speech with the important matter of scallops. He referred to the need for end product testing, instead of the current regime. There is a good case for that. There is a considerable market for scallops with the gonads removed. In Kirkcudbright, in my constituency, there is a considerable industry around that product, which is sold to France. However, currently the industry is excluded—along with all the others—even though those scallops pass all the tests. I wrote to the minister on the subject some two months ago, but I am still waiting for a response.

Jamie McGrigor also referred to the need for further scientific information and for the industry to have confidence in such information. There is a suspicion that research in many areas is underfunded. That is another matter which the minister could examine.

As other members said, the Tory amendment is a bit of a joke.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2066E64P88C713473", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McGrigor, Jamie", "ID": 2066, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie McGrigor", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McGrigor: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 282.0, "ContributionID": 713473, "EditedText": "All that is suggested is that we do what the party campaigned on. We campaigned on the Cullen blueprint, which suggested moving the Government department for fisheries to Aberdeen, for health to Dundee and for agriculture to Perth. I am surprised that the SNP wants to keep things at Westminster, but I am delighted to hear that that is the case.", "EditedTextHTML": "All that is suggested is that we do what the party campaigned on. We campaigned on the Cullen blueprint, which suggested moving the Government department for fisheries to Aberdeen, for health to Dundee and for agriculture to Perth. I am surprised that the SNP wants to keep things at Westminster, but I am delighted to hear that that is the case.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C713475", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Rural Affairs (Ross Finnie): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 287.0, "ContributionID": 713475, "EditedText": "I am pleased to have the opportunity to wind up the debate. I apologise for my extraordinary nasal tone—I am afraid that something has afflicted me. I share Alasdair Morgan's view that this has been a constructive debate. At times it has ranged into other matters, but never mind. For the most part, this important subject has had the attention that it deserves. I want to take up and respond to some of the important points that were made by members, but I want to make one or two general points by way of introduction. Like my colleague the Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs, I acknowledge the importance of fisheries to the rural economy in Scotland and the hazardous nature of the industry. I am delighted that over the past six months we have made good progress towards three key objectives: effective conservation of fish stocks, because that is the long-term future; the creation of a modern forward- thinking industry, geared towards satisfying market demand for high-quality fish, because that is how profitability will be assured and maximised; and a fishing industry that supports coastal communities, particularly in the remoter parts of Scotland. I endorse the view—and it is our view—that we can achieve those goals only by an inclusive approach and by involving the industry. That is exemplified by the creation of the Scottish inshore fisheries advisory group. I was somewhat surprised by Jamie McGrigor's comments—I hope that we all welcome my colleague's announcement of the introduction of a safety scheme for fishing vessels in Scotland, which will give us an opportunity to tackle that difficult problem in a way that is suited to Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am pleased to have the opportunity to wind up the debate. I apologise for my extraordinary nasal tone—I am afraid that something has afflicted me.

I share Alasdair Morgan's view that this has been a constructive debate. At times it has ranged into other matters, but never mind. For the most part, this important subject has had the attention that it deserves.

I want to take up and respond to some of the important points that were made by members, but I want to make one or two general points by way of introduction.

Like my colleague the Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs, I acknowledge the importance of fisheries to the rural economy in Scotland and the hazardous nature of the industry. I am delighted that over the past six months we have made good progress towards three key objectives: effective conservation of fish stocks, because that is the long-term future; the creation of a modern forward- thinking industry, geared towards satisfying market demand for high-quality fish, because that is how profitability will be assured and maximised; and a fishing industry that supports coastal communities, particularly in the remoter parts of Scotland. I endorse the view—and it is our view—that we can achieve those goals only by an inclusive approach and by involving the industry. That is exemplified by the creation of the Scottish inshore fisheries advisory group.

I was somewhat surprised by Jamie McGrigor's comments—I hope that we all welcome my colleague's announcement of the introduction of a safety scheme for fishing vessels in Scotland, which will give us an opportunity to tackle that difficult problem in a way that is suited to Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C713479", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ross Finnie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 295.0, "ContributionID": 713479, "EditedText": "Indeed. However, let us get this into perspective. The issue was raised during the debate by a number of members—Dr Ewing, Jamie McGrigor and Murray Tosh. Murray Tosh's point would not, of course, be dealt with simply by moving the boundary, because it concerned disputes. Wherever there is a boundary and different jurisdictions, it is not possible to avoid disputes.", "EditedTextHTML": "Indeed. However, let us get this into perspective. The issue was raised during the debate by a number of members—Dr Ewing, Jamie McGrigor and Murray Tosh. Murray Tosh's point would not, of course, be dealt with simply by moving the boundary, because it concerned disputes. Wherever there is a boundary and different jurisdictions, it is not possible to avoid disputes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C713481", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ross Finnie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 299.0, "ContributionID": 713481, "EditedText": "The argument about the 6,000 square miles would be far more convincing if someone had succeeded in demonstrating to us that a single penny had been lost by Scottish fishermen as a result of the measure.", "EditedTextHTML": "The argument about the 6,000 square miles would be far more convincing if someone had succeeded in demonstrating to us that a single penny had been lost by Scottish fishermen as a result of the measure.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1970E66P288C713482", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNulty, Des", "ID": 1970, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Clydebank and Milngavie" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Des McNulty", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Des McNulty (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 301.0, "ContributionID": 713482, "EditedText": "On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I am sure that what the minister is saying is extremely interesting, but I am having severe difficulty hearing him. Could you invite him to stand closer to the microphone?", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I am sure that what the minister is saying is extremely interesting, but I am having severe difficulty hearing him. Could you invite him to stand closer to the microphone?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C713488", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ross Finnie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 313.0, "ContributionID": 713488, "EditedText": "I can assure Mr Lochhead that the views of Scottish ministers are taken on board in promoting the interests of Scotland. He also asked whether we would invoke our Hague preference rights if it was in the best interests of Scotland, and I can confirm that we would undoubtedly do so. Mr Lochhead asked about reform of the common fisheries policy. The Executive was rather disappointed to learn that the Commission's current view is that the comprehensive review that we had hoped for might not take place, and it is a matter of regret that we do not foresee it happening. Nevertheless, we support the retention of six and 12-mile limits, and the question of relative stability is key to that. We want to feed in the views of the Scottish industry on the issues that many members have raised—regionalisation of the CFP, quota stability and the retention of the Shetland box. Jamie McGrigor mentioned amnesic shellfish poisoning. His call for a different form of testing is one that Alasdair Morgan raised again in his remarks. At present, testing is being conducted according to the terms of council directive 97/61/EC, and we think that that is proper. If clear scientific evidence were produced that that was wrong, my department would be keen to consider it.", "EditedTextHTML": "I can assure Mr Lochhead that the views of Scottish ministers are taken on board in promoting the interests of Scotland. He also asked whether we would invoke our Hague preference rights if it was in the best interests of Scotland, and I can confirm that we would undoubtedly do so.

Mr Lochhead asked about reform of the common fisheries policy. The Executive was rather disappointed to learn that the Commission's current view is that the comprehensive review that we had hoped for might not take place, and it is a matter of regret that we do not foresee it happening. Nevertheless, we support the retention of six and 12-mile limits, and the question of relative stability is key to that. We want to feed in the views of the Scottish industry on the issues that many members have raised—regionalisation of the CFP, quota stability and the retention of the Shetland box.

Jamie McGrigor mentioned amnesic shellfish poisoning. His call for a different form of testing is one that Alasdair Morgan raised again in his remarks. At present, testing is being conducted according to the terms of council directive 97/61/EC, and we think that that is proper. If clear scientific evidence were produced that that was wrong, my department would be keen to consider it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1985E207P501C713491", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hamilton, Mr Duncan", "ID": 1985, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Hamilton: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 319.0, "ContributionID": 713491, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C713492", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ross Finnie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 321.0, "ContributionID": 713492, "EditedText": "No.I share Alex Salmond's view about the Tories' rather quaint notion that devolution has nothing to do with the powers of this Parliament and everything to do with the distribution of English ministries throughout the United Kingdom. That is not devolution as anyone else in the chamber understands it. Duncan Hamilton made a point about monkfish. I must say to him directly that we cannot just make fish appear. If the International Council for the Exploration of the Sea report is telling us that the stocks are so depleted that we should take action, I hope that he is not suggesting that that scientific evidence should be ignored. That would not be desirable. Euan Robson made valuable points about our ability to increase the nephrops stock. That will be pursued. I will take up Murray Tosh's second point, on the issue of using square mesh. We have been able to get the European Union to do more in relation to the UK haddock stock—not just the Scottish stock—because we persuaded our UK colleagues and the UK industry that it should be a UK approach. That approach persuaded the European Union to reconsider the haddock quota that will be made available to us.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

I share Alex Salmond's view about the Tories' rather quaint notion that devolution has nothing to do with the powers of this Parliament and everything to do with the distribution of English ministries throughout the United Kingdom. That is not devolution as anyone else in the chamber understands it.

Duncan Hamilton made a point about monkfish. I must say to him directly that we cannot just make fish appear. If the International Council for the Exploration of the Sea report is telling us that the stocks are so depleted that we should take action, I hope that he is not suggesting that that scientific evidence should be ignored. That would not be desirable.

Euan Robson made valuable points about our ability to increase the nephrops stock. That will be pursued.

I will take up Murray Tosh's second point, on the issue of using square mesh. We have been able to get the European Union to do more in relation to the UK haddock stock—not just the Scottish stock—because we persuaded our UK colleagues and the UK industry that it should be a UK approach. That approach persuaded the European Union to reconsider the haddock quota that will be made available to us.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713495", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 327.0, "ContributionID": 713495, "EditedText": "That concludes the debate. There are no Parliamentary Bureau motions to be considered.", "EditedTextHTML": "That concludes the debate. There are no Parliamentary Bureau motions to be considered.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713496", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fishing Grants (Charges) Bill", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27185, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 329.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 329.0, "ID": 27185, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 330.0, "ContributionID": 713496, "EditedText": "Motion moved,", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion moved,

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713497", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fishing Grants (Charges) Bill", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27185, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 329.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 329.0, "ID": 27185, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 331.0, "ContributionID": 713497, "EditedText": "That the Parliament accepts the need to establish the validity of charges levied by the Sea Fish Industry Authority and the Herring Industry Board as set out in the Sea Fishing Grants (Charges) Bill and agrees that the Bill should be considered by the UK Parliament.—Mr Home Robertson.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament accepts the need to establish the validity of charges levied by the Sea Fish Industry Authority and the Herring Industry Board as set out in the Sea Fishing Grants (Charges) Bill and agrees that the Bill should be considered by the UK Parliament.—[Mr Home Robertson.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.545081+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713503", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27186, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 332.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 332.0, "ID": 27186, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 343.0, "ContributionID": 713503, "EditedText": "Amendment disagreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment disagreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.545081+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713509", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27186, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 332.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 332.0, "ID": 27186, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 353.0, "ContributionID": 713509, "EditedText": "Amendment disagreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment disagreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.545081+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713511", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27186, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 332.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 332.0, "ID": 27186, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 356.0, "ContributionID": 713511, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.545081+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713515", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27186, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 332.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 332.0, "ID": 27186, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 361.0, "ContributionID": 713515, "EditedText": "That the Parliament accepts the need to establish the validity of charges levied by the Sea Fish Industry Authority and the Herring Industry Board as set out in the Sea Fishing Grants (Charges) Bill and agrees that the Bill should be considered by the UK Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament accepts the need to establish the validity of charges levied by the Sea Fish Industry Authority and the Herring Industry Board as set out in the Sea Fishing Grants (Charges) Bill and agrees that the Bill should be considered by the UK Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.545081+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713517", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Hawick", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27187, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 362.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 362.0, "ID": 27187, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 365.0, "ContributionID": 713517, "EditedText": "Motion debated,", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion debated,

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.545081+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C713520", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Hawick", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27187, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 362.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 362.0, "ID": 27187, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Patricia Ferguson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 370.0, "ContributionID": 713520, "EditedText": "I ask members to keep their speeches to no more than four minutes, so that we can fit everyone in. I call Mr Murray Tosh.", "EditedTextHTML": "I ask members to keep their speeches to no more than four minutes, so that we can fit everyone in. I call Mr Murray Tosh.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.545081+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1990E181P340C713523", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Hawick", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27187, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 362.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 362.0, "ID": 27187, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robson, Euan", "ID": 1990, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Roxburgh and Berwickshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Euan Robson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Euan Robson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 378.0, "ContributionID": 713523, "EditedText": "And cattle processing.", "EditedTextHTML": "And cattle processing.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.545081+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2044E178P334C713525", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Hawick", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27187, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 362.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 362.0, "ID": 27187, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jenkins, Ian", "ID": 2044, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ian Jenkins", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ian Jenkins (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 383.0, "ContributionID": 713525, "EditedText": "I do not know whether there is much left to say. I hope that the minister notes the unanimity on all sides today. There is no point in my repeating what has already been said. I have with me a speech that would have told David Steel all about Galashiels and Hawick, but I will not bother with it. I am delighted that we are having this debate and that the speeches have covered the ground so thoroughly. I feel that we must strike a positive note. I do not like talking the Borders down as I believe that there is hope for development there, given the investment that we have talked about and the spirit of the Borders people. However, after the bump that the area has had recently, the Government needs to help us to get started again. Many ministers have visited the Borders since the establishment of the Scottish Parliament. All of them must have been impressed by the will of the people to get up, get going and do things for themselves. Scottish Borders Enterprise, the Scottish Borders Council—both focused and working in partnership—MSPs of all parties and all the other agencies are backing them.Education, skills and training are vital and can be encouraged without fantastic amounts of money being spent. When employers come to the area, we need to be able to promise that their work force can be trained. The Borders work force is super and has never let anyone down—not Viasystems, not Pringle and not Dawson International. It is skilful and hard working, but it needs somewhere to exercise its talents. School leavers must be able to stay in the Borders while obtaining the skills that they need. I agree with Christine Grahame that the rail infrastructure is vital, as are roads. Whatever happens, lines of communication in the area must be made better. The Executive has an opportunity to do that. The A7 is a dangerous road and must be improved. We need to encourage small businesses instead of expecting big factories to be set up. It would be better if we could diversify the economy. We need to sell the Borders. It is a wonderful place—the work force, the quality of life, the scenery and the schools are all great. The Borders is an attractive place for businesses to come to and that fact should be better publicised. The whole of the Borders, and Hawick especially, would benefit from that.", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not know whether there is much left to say. I hope that the minister notes the unanimity on all sides today. There is no point in my repeating what has already been said. I have with me a speech that would have told David Steel all about Galashiels and Hawick, but I will not bother with it.

I am delighted that we are having this debate and that the speeches have covered the ground so thoroughly. I feel that we must strike a positive note. I do not like talking the Borders down as I believe that there is hope for development there, given the investment that we have talked about and the spirit of the Borders people. However, after the bump that the area has had recently, the Government needs to help us to get started again.

Many ministers have visited the Borders since the establishment of the Scottish Parliament. All of them must have been impressed by the will of the people to get up, get going and do things for themselves. Scottish Borders Enterprise, the Scottish Borders Council—both focused and working in partnership—MSPs of all parties and all

the other agencies are backing them.

Education, skills and training are vital and can be encouraged without fantastic amounts of money being spent. When employers come to the area, we need to be able to promise that their work force can be trained. The Borders work force is super and has never let anyone down—not Viasystems, not Pringle and not Dawson International. It is skilful and hard working, but it needs somewhere to exercise its talents.

School leavers must be able to stay in the Borders while obtaining the skills that they need. I agree with Christine Grahame that the rail infrastructure is vital, as are roads. Whatever happens, lines of communication in the area must be made better. The Executive has an opportunity to do that. The A7 is a dangerous road and must be improved.

We need to encourage small businesses instead of expecting big factories to be set up. It would be better if we could diversify the economy.

We need to sell the Borders. It is a wonderful place—the work force, the quality of life, the scenery and the schools are all great. The Borders is an attractive place for businesses to come to and that fact should be better publicised. The whole of the Borders, and Hawick especially, would benefit from that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.545081+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2110E214P424C713362", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government Finance", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27183, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27183, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gibson, Kenneth", "ID": 2110, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenneth Gibson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Gibson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 44.0, "ContributionID": 713362, "EditedText": "Presiding Officer, we must be allowed to come back on that.", "EditedTextHTML": "Presiding Officer, we must be allowed to come back on that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:06:33.7651873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2110E214P424C713364", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government Finance", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27183, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27183, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gibson, Kenneth", "ID": 2110, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenneth Gibson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Gibson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 48.0, "ContributionID": 713364, "EditedText": "We must be—Interruption.", "EditedTextHTML": "We must be—[Interruption.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:06:33.7651873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2180E179P471C713404", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lochhead, Richard", "ID": 2180, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Lochhead", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Richard Lochhead (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 130.0, "ContributionID": 713404, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:20.9827029+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2180E179P471C713412", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lochhead, Richard", "ID": 2180, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Lochhead", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Richard Lochhead: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 147.0, "ContributionID": 713412, "EditedText": "I understand that the minister was appointed to his position in May. Despite the fact that this Parliament did not have legislative powers until 1 July, he was in office in May and June—six months ago. He should learn his calendar better. It seems to be a case of business as usual, here in Scotland and in Brussels. Yet Scotland has 70 per cent of the UK's fishing entitlement and there is £250 million of turnover in the Scottish fishing industry at the quayside. We are the second largest catcher of fish in the whole of the European Union. In the vital talks in Brussels in a couple of weeks' time, Scotland's fishing industry surely has more of a stake than the industry from any other part of the UK. Therefore, the Scottish minister should have lead ministerial responsibility for the whole of the UK in Europe. What matters is voting for the UK, not just talking. The minister tells us that he leads for Scotland because he speaks at those meetings. He should have the votes, because two thirds of the industry's base is in Scotland. We have more of an interest in the outcome of those talks than anyone else does. The case for lead ministerial responsibility being transferred to Scotland is unassailable. I ask the minister to put that case to the UK minister. On fisheries management, the annual merry-go-round of the quota negotiations has highlighted many problems. Our fishing representatives are forced to wait outside meeting rooms while others embark on damage limitation. That is not the way in which to work. The fishermen should be involved in setting the quotas and working with the scientists from day 1. There should be more flexibility in the quota system. There should be on-going assessment, not on-going crisis management. Multi-annual, multi-species arrangements must be considered. There is too much discarding of fish under current arrangements. If the quotas are slashed, the fishermen must land only the best fish, which means that other fish are discarded. Bad catches lead to even more fish being discarded. welcome the minister's comments about technical measures. That is the way forward, but we should not forget that policy must conserve our fish stocks. That is not happening under the current arrangements, which could be greatly improved. I welcome the industry's call for a standing committee, with scientists and fishermen working together. I urge the minister to support that. Franz Fischler has said that next year will be the brainstorming year on the future and reform of the common fisheries policy. Has our fisheries minister started brainstorming about what is going to happen to the CFP? He has made some welcome comments today, but that is the first that we have heard; the real brainstorming will happen in three weeks' time. We must come back and debate that, because the future of our industry is dependent on those negotiations. The SNP wants to see zonal management. Dr Allan Macartney, the SNP's late deputy leader, successfully advanced that concept in the European Parliament. The coastal states—to which fishing entitlement belongs—should bring together their scientists and fishermen so that they can build the best possible management plans. We must protect the historical rights to fishing by protecting the Hague preferences, which the minister should not be shy in forcing at the Fisheries Council in Brussels. What will our minister say if the UK minister tells him, \"No, you are not using Hague preferences\"? People who want to enter the fishing industry face many obstacles. Often, a quarter of the investment in a fishing enterprise is on the vessel. The rest of the investment has to go on the cost of licences and track record. That prevents new people from coming into the industry. I urge the minister to call a summit of the industry in Scotland so that we can discuss how to encourage new people to join the industry. I read in the Fishing News last week that 24 young men had embarked on a course in Banff and Buchan College of Further Education. What hope can we give them? We must tell them that fishing entitlement will be available for them and we must address the issue of costs. I welcome important initiatives by Highlands and Islands Enterprise and in Shetland to protect quota for local fishermen. The choice facing the minister is clear. He can continue to be the over-zealous policeman in Scotland of the UK minister in Europe, or he can tackle the fact that our fishermen do not have a level playing field and give them a helping hand by fighting his utmost for Scotland in Europe. The only way in which he can do that is by demanding that our minister in Scotland, with responsibility for two thirds of the industry, has lead responsibility for EU negotiations. I move amendment S1M-358.1, to insert at end:\"negotiate the transfer of lead responsibility for European Union fisheries negotiations from Her Majesty's Government to the Scottish Executive, in recognition of Scotland's dominant position within the UK industry; pursue a control regime for the Scottish industry that does not place it at a competitive disadvantage in comparison to other EU fleets, and influence the forthcoming reform of the Common Fisheries Policy by bringing forward proposals to introduce the concept of zonal management thereby involving the industry itself in the decision-making process, whilst maintaining the founding principles of the original agreement, namely relative stability, the Hague preferences and historic fishing rights, to re-affirm that the Common Fisheries Policy is not a free-for-all.\"", "EditedTextHTML": "I understand that the minister was appointed to his position in May. Despite the fact that this Parliament did not have legislative powers until 1 July, he was in office in May and June—six months ago. He should learn his calendar better.

It seems to be a case of business as usual, here in Scotland and in Brussels. Yet Scotland has 70 per cent of the UK's fishing entitlement and there is £250 million of turnover in the Scottish fishing industry at the quayside. We are the second largest catcher of fish in the whole of the European Union.

In the vital talks in Brussels in a couple of weeks' time, Scotland's fishing industry surely has more of a stake than the industry from any other part of the UK. Therefore, the Scottish minister should have lead ministerial responsibility for the whole of the UK in Europe. What matters is voting for the UK, not just talking. The minister tells us that he leads for Scotland because he speaks at those meetings. He should have the votes, because two thirds of the industry's base is in Scotland. We have more of an interest in the outcome of those talks than anyone else does. The case for lead ministerial responsibility being transferred to Scotland is unassailable. I ask the minister to put that case to the UK minister.

On fisheries management, the annual merry-go-round of the quota negotiations has highlighted many problems. Our fishing representatives are forced to wait outside meeting rooms while others embark on damage limitation. That is not the way in which to work. The fishermen should be involved in setting the quotas and working with the scientists from day 1. There should be more flexibility in the quota system. There should be on-going assessment, not on-going crisis management. Multi-annual, multi-species arrangements must be considered.

There is too much discarding of fish under current arrangements. If the quotas are slashed, the fishermen must land only the best fish, which means that other fish are discarded. Bad catches lead to even more fish being discarded. welcome the minister's comments about technical measures. That is the way forward, but we should not forget that policy must conserve our fish stocks. That is not happening under the current arrangements, which could be greatly improved.

I welcome the industry's call for a standing committee, with scientists and fishermen working together. I urge the minister to support that.

Franz Fischler has said that next year will be the brainstorming year on the future and reform of the common fisheries policy. Has our fisheries minister started brainstorming about what is going to happen to the CFP? He has made some welcome comments today, but that is the first that we have heard; the real brainstorming will happen in three weeks' time. We must come back and debate that, because the future of our industry is dependent on those negotiations.

The SNP wants to see zonal management. Dr Allan Macartney, the SNP's late deputy leader, successfully advanced that concept in the European Parliament. The coastal states—to which fishing entitlement belongs—should bring together their scientists and fishermen so that they can build the best possible management plans.

We must protect the historical rights to fishing by protecting the Hague preferences, which the minister should not be shy in forcing at the Fisheries Council in Brussels. What will our minister say if the UK minister tells him, \"No, you are not using Hague preferences\"?

People who want to enter the fishing industry face many obstacles. Often, a quarter of the investment in a fishing enterprise is on the vessel. The rest of the investment has to go on the cost of licences and track record. That prevents new people from coming into the industry. I urge the minister to call a summit of the industry in Scotland so that we can discuss how to encourage new people to join the industry. I read in the Fishing News last week that 24 young men had embarked on a course in Banff and Buchan College of Further Education. What hope can we give them? We must tell them that fishing entitlement will be available for them and we must address the issue of costs. I welcome important initiatives by Highlands and Islands Enterprise and in Shetland to protect quota for local fishermen.

The choice facing the minister is clear. He can continue to be the over-zealous policeman in Scotland of the UK minister in Europe, or he can tackle the fact that our fishermen do not have a level playing field and give them a helping hand by fighting his utmost for Scotland in Europe. The only way in which he can do that is by demanding that our minister in Scotland, with responsibility for two thirds of the industry, has lead responsibility for EU negotiations.

I move amendment S1M-358.1, to insert at end:

\"negotiate the transfer of lead responsibility for European Union fisheries negotiations from Her Majesty's Government to the Scottish Executive, in recognition of Scotland's dominant position within the UK industry; pursue a control regime for the Scottish industry that does not place it at a competitive disadvantage in comparison to other EU fleets, and influence the forthcoming reform of the Common Fisheries Policy by bringing forward proposals to

introduce the concept of zonal management thereby involving the industry itself in the decision-making process, whilst maintaining the founding principles of the original agreement, namely relative stability, the Hague preferences and historic fishing rights, to re-affirm that the Common Fisheries Policy is not a free-for-all.\"

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:20.9827029+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2180E179P471C713415", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lochhead, Richard", "ID": 2180, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Lochhead", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Richard Lochhead: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 155.0, "ContributionID": 713415, "EditedText": "As Mr Rumbles is looking for the positive, I take it that he will be supporting the SNP amendment. If not, will he point out the bits with which he disagrees?", "EditedTextHTML": "As Mr Rumbles is looking for the positive, I take it that he will be supporting the SNP amendment. If not, will he point out the bits with which he disagrees?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:20.9827029+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1756E184P464C713522", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Hawick", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27187, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 362.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 362.0, "ID": 27187, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Grahame, Christine", "ID": 1756, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Christine Grahame", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 376.0, "ContributionID": 713522, "EditedText": "Quite often it seems that Euan Robson, Ian Jenkins, Murray Tosh and I are healthy adversaries, but we all support Euan Robson's motion. All four of us know the specific difficulties that face the Borders and Hawick. The population of Hawick is around 15,000. That represents a drop of 4,000 in 100 years, whereas the population of Peebles has increased correspondingly during that time. That reflects the fact that Peebles has reasonable transport links— in the context of the Borders, at least. The demographics also show that 38 per cent of the population of Hawick is aged over 50, which reflects the falling opportunities for employment. I shall deal first with the negative issues that have been mentioned. The economy of Hawick, like that of the rest of the Borders, remains vulnerable. A small number of employers employ a large number of people, and if one of those employers is hit, a lot of people lose their jobs. The industrial base is pretty much restricted to textiles, farming and electronics, and 2,000 jobs have been lost in electronics and textiles over the past year. Farming has specific and more hidden problems, which are just as bad. The provost of Hawick—John Ross Scott, who is known affectionately as J R—told me that he was upbeat but concerned. Jobs and transport are the key to the resurgence of Hawick and the Borders. Those factors are interlinked and cannot be detached. On the positive side, there are the jobs that Euan Robson has mentioned. Mainetti, which employs 35 to 40 people, predicts that its work force will rise to between 200 and 300 over the coming years. That is a good wee story. That company originally made plastic coat hangers— and still does—but now makes ducting for computers and phone links. That is a step forward. Allflex provides another extraordinary story. The seeds of that company were sown in the Borders. It makes electronic plastic tags for cattle—a positive by-product of the BSE fiasco/crisis—and is seeking to develop UK-wide. As Euan Robson rightly says, there is still a place in the Borders for the original indigenous industries, such as the cashmere industry. Aiming for the quality, high-priced end of the market is the way to go. The Borders will never compete with cheap, far eastern produce, but it does not want to. However, we must be alert, as the market is competitive. Money must be spent on design and marketing, but there is always the big plus that a product has been made in Scotland, in the Borders textile industry. That is something that money cannot buy. The abattoir at Hawick has not been mentioned. A Northern Irish company bought it four years ago, simply to close it down. There is an on-going feasibility study into meat processing in the Borders. If we can get that going, we can perhaps build up lamb processing in the Borders and reopen the Hawick abattoir.", "EditedTextHTML": "Quite often it seems that Euan Robson, Ian Jenkins, Murray Tosh and I are healthy adversaries, but we all support Euan Robson's

motion. All four of us know the specific difficulties that face the Borders and Hawick.

The population of Hawick is around 15,000. That represents a drop of 4,000 in 100 years, whereas the population of Peebles has increased correspondingly during that time. That reflects the fact that Peebles has reasonable transport links— in the context of the Borders, at least. The demographics also show that 38 per cent of the population of Hawick is aged over 50, which reflects the falling opportunities for employment.

I shall deal first with the negative issues that have been mentioned. The economy of Hawick, like that of the rest of the Borders, remains vulnerable. A small number of employers employ a large number of people, and if one of those employers is hit, a lot of people lose their jobs. The industrial base is pretty much restricted to textiles, farming and electronics, and 2,000 jobs have been lost in electronics and textiles over the past year. Farming has specific and more hidden problems, which are just as bad.

The provost of Hawick—John Ross Scott, who is known affectionately as J R—told me that he was upbeat but concerned. Jobs and transport are the key to the resurgence of Hawick and the Borders. Those factors are interlinked and cannot be detached.

On the positive side, there are the jobs that Euan Robson has mentioned. Mainetti, which employs 35 to 40 people, predicts that its work force will rise to between 200 and 300 over the coming years. That is a good wee story. That company originally made plastic coat hangers— and still does—but now makes ducting for computers and phone links. That is a step forward. Allflex provides another extraordinary story. The seeds of that company were sown in the Borders. It makes electronic plastic tags for cattle—a positive by-product of the BSE fiasco/crisis—and is seeking to develop UK-wide.

As Euan Robson rightly says, there is still a place in the Borders for the original indigenous industries, such as the cashmere industry. Aiming for the quality, high-priced end of the market is the way to go. The Borders will never compete with cheap, far eastern produce, but it does not want to. However, we must be alert, as the market is competitive. Money must be spent on design and marketing, but there is always the big plus that a product has been made in Scotland, in the Borders textile industry. That is something that money cannot buy.

The abattoir at Hawick has not been mentioned. A Northern Irish company bought it four years ago, simply to close it down. There is an on-going feasibility study into meat processing in the Borders. If we can get that going, we can perhaps build up lamb processing in the Borders and reopen the Hawick abattoir.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:00:34.116328+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713342", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Wednesday 8 December 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 27181, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 27181, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 2.0, "ContributionID": 713342, "EditedText": "THE PRESIDING OFFICER opened the meeting at 14:31", "EditedTextHTML": "[THE PRESIDING OFFICER opened the meeting at 14:31]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713343", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Time for Reflection", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27182, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27182, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 4.0, "ContributionID": 713343, "EditedText": "Our time for reflection today is led by Dr Mona Siddiqui, lecturer in Arabic and Islamic studies at the University of Glasgow.", "EditedTextHTML": "Our time for reflection today is led by Dr Mona Siddiqui, lecturer in Arabic and Islamic studies at the University of Glasgow.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713345", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government Finance", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27183, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27183, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 9.0, "ContributionID": 713345, "EditedText": "Our first item of business is a statement by Mr Jack McConnell on local government finance. The minister will take questions at the end of his 10-minute statement and therefore will take no interventions.", "EditedTextHTML": "Our first item of business is a statement by Mr Jack McConnell on local government finance. The minister will take questions at the end of his 10-minute statement and therefore will take no interventions.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713347", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government Finance", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27183, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27183, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 13.0, "ContributionID": 713347, "EditedText": "The answer to the first point of order is that I have not received a request for a statement and, if I had, it would be in the business bulletin. As to the second point, whomever civil servants are answerable to, it is not me. They are answerable to the First Minister, whom the member will have a chance to question tomorrow.", "EditedTextHTML": "The answer to the first point of order is that I have not received a request for a statement and, if I had, it would be in the business bulletin.

As to the second point, whomever civil servants are answerable to, it is not me. They are answerable to the First Minister, whom the member will have a chance to question tomorrow.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713354", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government Finance", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27183, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27183, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 28.0, "ContributionID": 713354, "EditedText": "Is it a real one?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is it a real one?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C713360", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government Finance", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27183, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27183, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 40.0, "ContributionID": 713360, "EditedText": "It is depressing that Mr Gibson's main comment on the local government settlement—which covers a comprehensive range of items—concentrates on the Parliamentary Bureau's decisions about the time allocation for statements. I would have thought that there were much more important issues to be discussed today. The nationalist party never recognises that the settlement for local government—for this year and next year—contains hundreds of millions of pounds more than would have been the case had the Conservative party still been in government. It would be nice if that fact were recognised—just once or twice—by the nationalist party or, indeed, by the Conservative party. This is a good settlement for local government. It allows for convergence over a very long period. It allows for flexibility among local authorities. It gives them resources increased above the rate of inflation. We are proud of the settlement. It is good for local communities and services.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is depressing that Mr Gibson's main comment on the local government settlement—which covers a comprehensive range of items—concentrates on the Parliamentary Bureau's decisions about the time allocation for statements. I would have thought that there were much more important issues to be discussed today.

The nationalist party never recognises that the settlement for local government—for this year and next year—contains hundreds of millions of pounds more than would have been the case had the Conservative party still been in government. It would be nice if that fact were recognised—just once or twice—by the nationalist party or, indeed, by the Conservative party.

This is a good settlement for local government. It allows for convergence over a very long period. It allows for flexibility among local authorities. It gives them resources increased above the rate of inflation. We are proud of the settlement. It is good for local communities and services.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713363", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government Finance", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27183, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27183, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 46.0, "ContributionID": 713363, "EditedText": "Order.", "EditedTextHTML": "Order.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713365", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government Finance", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27183, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27183, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 50.0, "ContributionID": 713365, "EditedText": "Order. Mr Gibson, you must ask for permission to speak. Mr Harding.", "EditedTextHTML": "Order. Mr Gibson, you must ask for permission to speak. Mr Harding.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C713367", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government Finance", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27183, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27183, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 54.0, "ContributionID": 713367, "EditedText": "It is instructive to see the Scottish Conservative party clutching at the very few years in which it was generous to local government in Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is instructive to see the Scottish Conservative party clutching at the very few years in which it was generous to local government in Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C713370", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government Finance", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27183, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27183, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 60.0, "ContributionID": 713370, "EditedText": "I apologise, but Mr Harding asked a question and I am delighted to provide the answer. I remind Mr Harding that, in this financial year, the Conservative party would have been prepared to spend £250 million less than this settlement allows for. By the end of the comprehensive spending review period and of the period covered by the spending plans that I announced on 6 October, the difference between what the Conservative party planned to spend and what we will spend on education, social services, the police and other vital local services across Scotland would have been a grand total of £550 million. It is simply not true to suggest that this is a poor settlement for local government. The settlement includes money for new burdens. We have not specified those burdens, but we included extra money for them. The settlement includes a rise well above the rate of inflation, both in total local government expenditure and in Government grant. It includes provision for the key local services of education, social services and police and fire services, which are the agreed priorities of local and central Government in Scotland. After many years of neglect, we are proud to deliver on those services.", "EditedTextHTML": "I apologise, but Mr Harding asked a question and I am delighted to provide the answer.

I remind Mr Harding that, in this financial year, the Conservative party would have been prepared to spend £250 million less than this settlement allows for. By the end of the comprehensive spending review period and of the period covered by the spending plans that I announced on 6 October, the difference between what the Conservative party planned to spend and what we will spend on education, social services, the police and other vital local services across Scotland would have been a grand total of £550 million. It is simply not true to suggest that this is a poor settlement for local government.

The settlement includes money for new burdens. We have not specified those burdens, but we included extra money for them. The settlement includes a rise well above the rate of inflation, both in total local government expenditure and in Government grant. It includes provision for the key local services of education, social services and police and fire services, which are the agreed priorities of local and central Government in Scotland. After many years of neglect, we are proud to deliver on those services.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2090E83P266C713373", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government Finance", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27183, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27183, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAllion, Mr John", "ID": 2090, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dundee East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John McAllion", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr John McAllion (Dundee East) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 66.0, "ContributionID": 713373, "EditedText": "I welcome the review of the distribution formula, which is long overdue; furthermore, I am delighted that a Labour minister in a Scottish Parliament will be implementing it. Dundee expects, if I may say so. Will the minister confirm that the £6.5 million deprivation payment to nine councils this year can be used by those councils only to reduce their council tax levels? Furthermore, will the additional £15 million that he has identified be given to local authorities in a form that allows them to invest the money in council services? The poor, in particular, depend heavily on such services.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the review of the distribution formula, which is long overdue; furthermore, I am delighted that a Labour minister in a Scottish Parliament will be implementing it. Dundee expects, if I may say so.

Will the minister confirm that the £6.5 million deprivation payment to nine councils this year can be used by those councils only to reduce their council tax levels? Furthermore, will the additional £15 million that he has identified be given to local authorities in a form that allows them to invest the money in council services? The poor, in particular, depend heavily on such services.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C713374", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government Finance", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27183, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27183, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 68.0, "ContributionID": 713374, "EditedText": "The use of the specialdeprivation payment will depend on the circumstances of individual councils and how they choose to spend that money. The use of the additional £15 million that has been identified through savings in loans charges will be decided over the next six weeks in discussions between Mr Frank McAveety and COSLA. Although it is right and proper that we do not pre-empt those discussions, I strongly expect them to lead to money being spent on areas of local expenditure that need it most.", "EditedTextHTML": "The use of the special

deprivation payment will depend on the circumstances of individual councils and how they choose to spend that money. The use of the additional £15 million that has been identified through savings in loans charges will be decided over the next six weeks in discussions between Mr Frank McAveety and COSLA. Although it is right and proper that we do not pre-empt those discussions, I strongly expect them to lead to money being spent on areas of local expenditure that need it most.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C713375", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government Finance", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27183, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27183, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 70.0, "ContributionID": 713375, "EditedText": "Will the Minister for Finance provide some points of fact, rather than interpretation, on the issue of finance? Is it a fact that, in the first three years of the Scottish Parliament, the minister will support local authorities by £2.4 billion less than the amount provided in the last three years of the Conservative Government? Is it also a fact that, on average, council taxes are 7.4 per cent higher in Scotland at band D than in England, which represents a real north-south divide? Furthermore, will the minister confirm that he has just announced that council taxes are set to rise by twice the rate of inflation, despite the already large differential north and south of the border? As a follow-up to Mr McAllion's point, will the minister also confirm that of the 405 councils in Britain, two of the top three most expensive council tax rates—in Dundee and Glasgow—are in Scotland, which is a direct result of his lack of support?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the Minister for Finance provide some points of fact, rather than interpretation, on the issue of finance? Is it a fact that, in the first three years of the Scottish Parliament, the minister will support local authorities by £2.4 billion less than the amount provided in the last three years of the Conservative Government? Is it also a fact that, on average, council taxes are 7.4 per cent higher in Scotland at band D than in England, which represents a real north-south divide?

Furthermore, will the minister confirm that he has just announced that council taxes are set to rise by twice the rate of inflation, despite the already large differential north and south of the border? As a follow-up to Mr McAllion's point, will the minister also confirm that of the 405 councils in Britain, two of the top three most expensive council tax rates—in Dundee and Glasgow—are in Scotland, which is a direct result of his lack of support?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C713378", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government Finance", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27183, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27183, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 76.0, "ContributionID": 713378, "EditedText": "It is very, very serious that, week after week in this chamber, if it is not Mr MacAskill demanding about £250 million more for the roads programme, Mr Gibson demanding the same for local government, Ms Sturgeon demanding the same for education, or Ms Ullrich demanding the same for health, it is some other SNP member demanding the same for some other programme. We cannot simply magic up £200 million or more for every single programme week after week. It is not good enough to complain in different contexts and in different departments that the money provided is not enough. The truth is that the amount of money allocated in today's statement for local government in this financial year is £250 million more than would have been spent by the Conservatives and will be £550 million more by the end of the comprehensive spending review. Not only have we sorted out the mess in which the Conservatives left the economy, but we are spending more money.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is very, very serious that, week after week in this chamber, if it is not Mr MacAskill demanding about £250 million more for the roads programme, Mr Gibson demanding the same for local government, Ms Sturgeon demanding the same for education, or Ms Ullrich demanding the same for health, it is some other SNP member demanding the same for some other programme.

We cannot simply magic up £200 million or more for every single programme week after week. It is not good enough to complain in different contexts and in different departments that the money provided is not enough. The truth is that the amount of money allocated in today's statement for local government in this financial year is £250 million more than would have been spent by the Conservatives and will be £550 million more by the end of the comprehensive spending review.

Not only have we sorted out the mess in which the Conservatives left the economy, but we are spending more money.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5138316+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C713380", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government Finance", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27183, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27183, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 80.0, "ContributionID": 713380, "EditedText": "We are determined to move ahead with those reviews as speedily as possible and to ensure that the areas that most need extra money receive it.", "EditedTextHTML": "We are determined to move ahead with those reviews as speedily as possible and to ensure that the areas that most need extra money receive it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5138316+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2234E7P20C713385", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government Finance", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27183, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27183, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Aitken, Bill", "ID": 2234, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bill Aitken", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bill Aitken (Glasgow) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 90.0, "ContributionID": 713385, "EditedText": "I ask the ministerto depart from the Mystic Meg school of economics and to recognise the facts. In the last three years of the Conservative Government, local government spending as a percentage of gross domestic product was 11.72 per cent, 11.02 per cent and 9.77 per cent respectively, whereas at the end of the period that is under review today, the Labour party's commitment will be 7.11 per cent. Bearing in mind the fact that stability is the watchword today, will the minister instruct Mr Frank McAveety to ensure that there is stability for council tax payers, so that we do not have three years of substantial increases, followed by a year of minimal increase—coinciding with elections—or would that be a classic case of the poacher becoming a gamekeeper?", "EditedTextHTML": "I ask the minister

to depart from the Mystic Meg school of economics and to recognise the facts. In the last three years of the Conservative Government, local government spending as a percentage of gross domestic product was 11.72 per cent, 11.02 per cent and 9.77 per cent respectively, whereas at the end of the period that is under review today, the Labour party's commitment will be 7.11 per cent.

Bearing in mind the fact that stability is the watchword today, will the minister instruct Mr Frank McAveety to ensure that there is stability for council tax payers, so that we do not have three years of substantial increases, followed by a year of minimal increase—coinciding with elections—or would that be a classic case of the poacher becoming a gamekeeper?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713393", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government Finance", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27183, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27183, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 106.0, "ContributionID": 713393, "EditedText": "I have allowed this statement and questions to overrun. Six members remain to be called, but we must protect the main debate of the day.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have allowed this statement and questions to overrun. Six members remain to be called, but we must protect the main debate of the day.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2100E64P254C713395", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Home Robertson, John", "ID": 2100, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Lothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "John Home Robertson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs (Mr John Home Robertson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 112.0, "ContributionID": 713395, "EditedText": "This, at last, is my first opportunity to make a full speech in the Parliament, so let me say how grateful I am to the people of East Lothian for sending me here.", "EditedTextHTML": "This, at last, is my first opportunity to make a full speech in the Parliament, so let me say how grateful I am to the people of East Lothian for sending me here.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713396", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 114.0, "ContributionID": 713396, "EditedText": "I hope that this is not a maiden speech.", "EditedTextHTML": "I hope that this is not a maiden speech.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2100E64P254C713399", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Home Robertson, John", "ID": 2100, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Lothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "John Home Robertson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Home Robertson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 120.0, "ContributionID": 713399, "EditedText": "The same will apply there. I recognise that there is particular pressure on the Clyde as a result of the scallop fishery closure further north. I will return to that. For the future, we have a challenging agenda. There are some very difficult issues to deal with, such as amnesic shellfish poisoning—I have just referred to scallops—engine power regulation and the impact on the processing industry of the urban waste water treatment directive. There are no easy answers to those questions but I have sought to approach them all by involving the industry in the consideration of options. On ASP, for example, I have asked officials to convene a meeting involving all the stakeholders to identify the most effective way forward. I had a meeting on Monday with representatives of scallop fishing interests—that is in line with one of the recommendations contained in the helpful report published recently by the Rural Affairs Committee. The aim is to support the industry in developing a long-term strategy to deal with the problems, should they arise again in future.", "EditedTextHTML": "The same will apply there. I recognise that there is particular pressure on the Clyde as a result of the scallop fishery closure further north. I will return to that.

For the future, we have a challenging agenda. There are some very difficult issues to deal with, such as amnesic shellfish poisoning—I have just referred to scallops—engine power regulation and the impact on the processing industry of the urban waste water treatment directive. There are no easy answers to those questions but I have sought to approach them all by involving the industry in the consideration of options.

On ASP, for example, I have asked officials to convene a meeting involving all the stakeholders to identify the most effective way forward. I had a meeting on Monday with representatives of scallop fishing interests—that is in line with one of the recommendations contained in the helpful report published recently by the Rural Affairs Committee. The aim is to support the industry in developing a long-term strategy to deal with the problems, should they arise again in future.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2100E64P254C713401", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Home Robertson, John", "ID": 2100, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Lothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "John Home Robertson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Home Robertson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 124.0, "ContributionID": 713401, "EditedText": "I am not sure that I was at the same meeting as Mr Hamilton. I felt that the meeting was constructive. Everyone concerned will recognise that we are considering the options that are available to us. In SIFAG, we have raised the issue of the need to find flexibility for boats that do not have access to prawn fishing. We have undertaken to consider ways of helping with diversification under the FIFG regulation in the future. We are engaged in the issues. At a more strategic level, we need to turn our mind to two key tasks: the future development of the Scottish fishing industry and the review of the common fisheries policy in 2002. We need to develop a shared vision of how we want the industry to develop. There are a number of key factors within that, of which I will list three. First, we need to strike a balance between the need to sustain the remotest coastal communities and the interests of economic efficiency. Secondly, we need to involve local communities in the management of fisheries, which is an issue that strikes a chord all round the Parliament. Thirdly, we need to build a culture of quality in Scottish seafood to increase the market value of our fish for the benefit of those who work in this important industry. I want to make progress on that agenda over the next few months. I would welcome constructive input from both the Rural Affairs Committee and the industry and I am confident that I will get it.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am not sure that I was at the same meeting as Mr Hamilton. I felt that the meeting was constructive. Everyone concerned will recognise that we are considering the options that are available to us. In SIFAG, we have raised the issue of the need to find flexibility for boats that do not have access to prawn fishing. We have undertaken to consider ways of helping with diversification under the FIFG regulation in the future. We are engaged in the issues.

At a more strategic level, we need to turn our mind to two key tasks: the future development of the Scottish fishing industry and the review of the common fisheries policy in 2002.

We need to develop a shared vision of how we want the industry to develop. There are a number of key factors within that, of which I will list three. First, we need to strike a balance between the need to sustain the remotest coastal communities and the interests of economic efficiency. Secondly, we need to involve local communities in the management of fisheries, which is an issue that strikes a chord all round the Parliament. Thirdly, we need to build a culture of quality in Scottish seafood to increase the market value of our fish for the benefit of those who work in this important industry. I want to make progress on that agenda over the next few months. I would welcome constructive input from both the Rural Affairs Committee and the industry and I am confident that I will get it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1878E208P502C713402", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Dr Winnie", "ID": 1878, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Winnie Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Winnie Ewing (Highlands and Islands) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 126.0, "ContributionID": 713402, "EditedText": "Why did the minister not mention the need to protect the principle of relative stability? I would have thought that that was vital.", "EditedTextHTML": "Why did the minister not mention the need to protect the principle of relative stability? I would have thought that that was vital.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2100E64P254C713403", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Home Robertson, John", "ID": 2100, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Lothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "John Home Robertson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Home Robertson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 128.0, "ContributionID": 713403, "EditedText": "That certainly is vital. It can be taken as read that we support the principle of relative stability and the six and 12-mile limits. I am grateful to Dr Ewing for raising that point, as there should be no doubt in any quarter about our position on that. On the future of the CFP from 2002, I have a number of objectives in mind, such as the regionalisation of the CFP and quota stability, which is the point that Dr Ewing has just raised. Obviously, those objectives will need detailed consideration and I want the Parliament and the industry to be actively engaged in that process. That brings me back to the issue of total allowable catches, the quotas proposed for 2000 and the motion that we are debating today. The Executive will not shirk its responsibility to take tough action to protect fish stocks, not least because the future of our fishing fleet depends on the preservation of those stocks. The scientists' assessment of the state of many stocks is very gloomy. However, it is not all bad news. Pelagic stocks remain steady, the north Atlantic mackerel TAC can increase and herring continues to recover from its near collapse in the mid-1990s. Last week, there was further good news for the pelagic fleet in the negotiations between the EU and Norway. Norwegian demands for an increased share of mackerel stock were again seen off and we secured a 60 per cent increase in the amount of western quota that can be fished in the North sea, as well as an extension to the period of such fishing.", "EditedTextHTML": "That certainly is vital. It can be taken as read that we support the principle of relative stability and the six and 12-mile limits. I am grateful to Dr Ewing for raising that point, as there should be no doubt in any quarter about our position on that.

On the future of the CFP from 2002, I have a number of objectives in mind, such as the regionalisation of the CFP and quota stability, which is the point that Dr Ewing has just raised. Obviously, those objectives will need detailed consideration and I want the Parliament and the industry to be actively engaged in that process.

That brings me back to the issue of total allowable catches, the quotas proposed for 2000 and the motion that we are debating today. The Executive will not shirk its responsibility to take tough action to protect fish stocks, not least because the future of our fishing fleet depends on

the preservation of those stocks. The scientists' assessment of the state of many stocks is very gloomy. However, it is not all bad news. Pelagic stocks remain steady, the north Atlantic mackerel TAC can increase and herring continues to recover from its near collapse in the mid-1990s.

Last week, there was further good news for the pelagic fleet in the negotiations between the EU and Norway. Norwegian demands for an increased share of mackerel stock were again seen off and we secured a 60 per cent increase in the amount of western quota that can be fished in the North sea, as well as an extension to the period of such fishing.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2117E79P104C713409", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macdonald, Lewis", "ID": 2117, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lewis Macdonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Lewis Macdonald (Aberdeen Central) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 141.0, "ContributionID": 713409, "EditedText": "After the withdrawal of that grant, does Mr Lochhead welcome the minister's announcement today of plans to develop a Scottish sea fishing industry scheme? Is not the development of such a scheme a perfect example of how devolution can benefit the Scottish fishing industry?", "EditedTextHTML": "After the withdrawal of that grant, does Mr Lochhead welcome the minister's announcement today of plans to develop a Scottish sea fishing industry scheme? Is not the development of such a scheme a perfect example of how devolution can benefit the Scottish fishing industry?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2100E64P254C713411", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Home Robertson, John", "ID": 2100, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Lothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "John Home Robertson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Home Robertson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 145.0, "ContributionID": 713411, "EditedText": "I hesitate to accuse Mr Lochhead of carping in a debate on fisheries. He asked why we did not do anything six months ago, but we were not here six months ago. We have moved as quickly as we could to produce a Scottish solution to a Scottish problem through a Scottish Parliament. Surely that is what this Parliament is here for. Would it be too much to ask Mr Lochhead to welcome that?", "EditedTextHTML": "I hesitate to accuse Mr Lochhead of carping in a debate on fisheries. He asked why we did not do anything six months ago, but we were not here six months ago. We have moved as quickly as we could to produce a Scottish solution to a Scottish problem through a

Scottish Parliament. Surely that is what this Parliament is here for. Would it be too much to ask Mr Lochhead to welcome that?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2066E64P88C713413", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McGrigor, Jamie", "ID": 2066, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie McGrigor", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Jamie McGrigor (Highlands and Islands) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 150.0, "ContributionID": 713413, "EditedText": "It was good to see a Scottish fisheries minister leading for the UK at a recent fisheries conference. I believe that the Scottish Parliament can be good for Scotland's fishing, albeit only under new management. In recognition of the importance of Scottish fisheries to Europe, I can reveal that the European Parliament's Committee on Fisheries will visit Scottish fishing areas in June 2000 and that the new fisheries commissioner, Franz Fischler, will come on a separate trip in the new year. Scotland has the most important part of the UK fishing industry, accounting for more than 70 per cent of all fish landed in the UK. The landed value is almost £300 million, which represents almost £1.6 billion when retailed. Two thousand eight hundred vessels employ 6,700 fishermen, which is regrettably fewer than the 8,200 who were employed in 1997. The total number of jobs that are attributed to fishing and aquaculture is between 20,000 and 25,000, many of which are in rural areas, where secure employment is at a premium. Fishing is a great, traditional, Scottish-owned industry, which demands respect. However, there was not much respect, and absolutely zero consultation, when the new east coast boundary was implemented. A report by the Rural Affairs Committee is due to be published tomorrow, which, I sincerely hope, will recommend a rethink, because the transfer of 6,500 square miles of Scottish fishing territory is not only unnecessary, but insensitive and illogical. The boundary goes straight through the middle of excellent fishing grounds and will cause gross difficulties and irritation. A boundary was set in 1987 to define the offshore jurisdiction of the Scottish courts. We now have an unnecessary second line solely for the Scottish Parliament's legislation. Better consultation between officialdom and the fishing industry is essential for future policies. Fishing is very heavily regulated within Europe. This Lib-Lab pact is guilty of gold-plating EU regulations and rules to the competitive disadvantage of our fishermen. One example is the recent farce over amnesic shellfish poisoning. Over the past two years, all king scallops and queenies have been required to undergo tests for ASP at source, but common sense dictates that the time to test the product is the moment at which it enters the market to go into the food chain—end product testing. Our fishermen should have parity on testing with those in the rest of Europe and the world. The scallop fishermen have suffered, in many cases, from a total loss of income by complying with the ban. I am horrified that the Executive has rejected the principle of compensation for the scallop industry. It is not enough for us to compliment scallop fishermen on their good behaviour during the ban. I suggest that the Executive should reverse its decision and retrospectively compensate the industry for this unforeseeable nightmare. We should remember that there are scallop farmers as well as scallop fishermen. The salmon farming industry has had at least some help—not very much—over infectious salmon anaemia, and the scallop industry should not be forgotten at this crucial time. I press now for a reaction from the Executive to the report on ASP from the Rural Affairs Committee. When will the Executive do something? The most worrying aspect of the whole affair is not knowing from where the toxic algal blooms have originated. If they are a naturally occurring phenomenon, there is, presumably, not much anyone can do, but it is vital that there be maximum scientific research now. The west coast of Scotland has always had a reputation for class A waters. Indeed, the tourist industry sells the area on its environmental excellence. The lucrative and valuable shellfish export trade is very important to west coast fishermen and aquaculturalists, so any loss of confidence in the products from our sea bed is disastrous and difficult to rectify. We must keep a clean sea. Historically, there is nothing indicative of an algal bloom on our west coast, so why is that happening now? We must discover the source of the domoic acid that is being found in scallops, and we must find out why all the cod have disappeared. That is not due to overfishing. Another major worry is that following the dioxin fiasco in Belgium, the European Commission might set the safe limit for dioxins in animal feedstuffs at a level that would be lower than the level of dioxin that is found in fish from the North sea and the Baltic—lower than the level that is thought safe for human beings. If that is true, the consequences would be catastrophic. I therefore ask the deputy minister to investigate. The nephrops—or prawn fishery—are very important to both the small boats of the west coast and many white fish vessels. It has become one of our most important landed catches. The TAC should be enlarged to cover the increased area now being fished. European markets, especially Spain, have been vital in adding to the species that can be traded by our fishermen. Velvet crabs, green crabs and even razor-fish are now valuable products. The electronic markets do work, but much of the west coast is not yet equipped to deal in them, due to lack of infrastructure. What is needed there is improved piers and new grading facilities. I am delighted that the Scottish inshore fisheries advisory group—SIFAG—has recently been established. It should be a good forum for fishermen and others to thrash out the local issues and rules, such as a policy on seal management and charging schemes. Something like that is long overdue and should give a greater voice to the independent fishermen. To be effective, however, it must adopt a long-term strategic approach to the management of the inshore industry. On fleet modernisation, it is ridiculous that the British taxpayer is subsidising other European vessels, not its own fleet. The UK Government must access the available European funds and must put an end to capacity penalties. We must modernise, especially on factors relating to vessels which enhance the quality of the catch, including refrigeration, grading and gutting facilities. Improving the value of the catch is paramount; at the same time, we must improve safety. I hate to say this, but the Government is gambling with the lives of our fishermen. It withdrew safety grants because the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food had overspent. That was due to a combination of BSE compensation and expenditure on the pets quarantine scheme, compounded by a shortfall in the money expected from the sale of the Covent Garden complex. Pets before people: that is not good enough. A new approach is needed. Conservation of fish stocks is being undermined by the dumping of dead fish. Equipment should include technology that protects undersized and immature stock, such as square-mesh panels. Zonal management would give our fishermen a say in their own future. Each species that is important to Scotland must be managed with forethought, to maximise conservation and catch. Haddock quotas have been reduced to profit cod and whiting, but the discards of small fish will negate any conservation benefit. A single TAC for monkfish will require skilful negotiation to ensure that Scottish fishermen have sufficient quotas, especially in the west. The prawn TAC should be enlarged to cover the extended area in which the species is now fished. It is no good deciding a fishing policy annually; continuous reassessment, at least every quarter, is the way ahead. We believe that the advice of the Cullen blueprint report to locate the fisheries ministry in the north-east, close to the major part of the UK fishing industry, would bring that Government department closer to those most affected by it, and would fulfil the ideal of true devolution. I move amendment S1M-358.2, to delete from \"calls\" to end and insert: \"recognises that the current Common Fisheries Policy arrangements are failing our fishermen and calls upon the Scottish Executive to advocate reform of the CFP that devolves power to regional and zonal levels which would give our fishermen better control over the stocks of fish whilst recognising the traditional rights of other countries, and further calls for the fishing section of MAFF to be relocated to the North East of Scotland, the UK's main fishing centre, and that continuous assessment should replace the current practice of annual negotiation.\"", "EditedTextHTML": "It was good to see a Scottish fisheries minister leading for the UK at a recent fisheries conference. I believe that the Scottish Parliament can be good for Scotland's fishing, albeit only under new management. In recognition of the importance of Scottish fisheries to Europe, I can reveal that the European Parliament's Committee on Fisheries will visit Scottish fishing areas in June 2000 and that the new fisheries commissioner, Franz Fischler, will come on a separate trip in the new year.

Scotland has the most important part of the UK fishing industry, accounting for more than 70 per cent of all fish landed in the UK. The landed value is almost £300 million, which represents almost £1.6 billion when retailed. Two thousand eight hundred vessels employ 6,700 fishermen, which is regrettably fewer than the 8,200 who were employed in 1997. The total number of jobs that are attributed to fishing and aquaculture is between 20,000 and 25,000, many of which are in rural areas, where secure employment is at a premium.

Fishing is a great, traditional, Scottish-owned industry, which demands respect. However, there was not much respect, and absolutely zero consultation, when the new east coast boundary was implemented. A report by the Rural Affairs Committee is due to be published tomorrow, which, I sincerely hope, will recommend a rethink, because the transfer of 6,500 square miles of Scottish fishing territory is not only unnecessary, but insensitive and illogical. The boundary goes straight through the middle of excellent fishing grounds and will cause gross difficulties and irritation. A boundary was set in 1987 to define the offshore jurisdiction of the Scottish courts. We now have an unnecessary second line solely for the Scottish Parliament's legislation.

Better consultation between officialdom and the fishing industry is essential for future policies. Fishing is very heavily regulated within Europe. This Lib-Lab pact is guilty of gold-plating EU regulations and rules to the competitive disadvantage of our fishermen.

One example is the recent farce over amnesic shellfish poisoning. Over the past two years, all king scallops and queenies have been required to undergo tests for ASP at source, but common sense dictates that the time to test the product is the moment at which it enters the market to go into the food chain—end product testing. Our fishermen should have parity on testing with those in the rest of Europe and the world.

The scallop fishermen have suffered, in many cases, from a total loss of income by complying with the ban. I am horrified that the Executive has rejected the principle of compensation for the scallop industry. It is not enough for us to compliment scallop fishermen on their good behaviour during the ban. I suggest that the Executive should reverse its decision and retrospectively compensate the industry for this unforeseeable nightmare. We should remember that there are scallop farmers as well as scallop fishermen. The salmon farming industry has had at least some help—not very much—over infectious salmon anaemia, and the scallop industry should not be forgotten at this crucial time. I press now for a reaction from the Executive to the report on ASP from the Rural Affairs Committee. When will the Executive do something?

The most worrying aspect of the whole affair is not knowing from where the toxic algal blooms have originated. If they are a naturally occurring phenomenon, there is, presumably, not much anyone can do, but it is vital that there be maximum scientific research now. The west coast of Scotland has always had a reputation for class A waters. Indeed, the tourist industry sells the area on its environmental excellence. The lucrative and valuable shellfish export trade is very important to west coast fishermen and aquaculturalists, so any loss of confidence in the products from our sea bed is disastrous and difficult to rectify. We must keep a clean sea. Historically, there is nothing indicative of an algal bloom on our west coast, so why is that happening now? We must discover the source of the domoic acid that is being found in scallops, and we must find out why all the cod have disappeared. That is not due to overfishing.

Another major worry is that following the dioxin fiasco in Belgium, the European Commission might set the safe limit for dioxins in animal feedstuffs at a level that would be lower than the level of dioxin that is found in fish from the North sea and the Baltic—lower than the level that is thought safe for human beings. If that is true, the consequences would be catastrophic. I therefore ask the deputy minister to investigate.

The nephrops—or prawn fishery—are very important to both the small boats of the west coast and many white fish vessels. It has become one of our most important landed catches. The TAC should be enlarged to cover the increased area now being fished.

European markets, especially Spain, have been vital in adding to the species that can be traded by

our fishermen. Velvet crabs, green crabs and even razor-fish are now valuable products.

The electronic markets do work, but much of the west coast is not yet equipped to deal in them, due to lack of infrastructure. What is needed there is improved piers and new grading facilities.

I am delighted that the Scottish inshore fisheries advisory group—SIFAG—has recently been established. It should be a good forum for fishermen and others to thrash out the local issues and rules, such as a policy on seal management and charging schemes. Something like that is long overdue and should give a greater voice to the independent fishermen. To be effective, however, it must adopt a long-term strategic approach to the management of the inshore industry.

On fleet modernisation, it is ridiculous that the British taxpayer is subsidising other European vessels, not its own fleet. The UK Government must access the available European funds and must put an end to capacity penalties.

We must modernise, especially on factors relating to vessels which enhance the quality of the catch, including refrigeration, grading and gutting facilities. Improving the value of the catch is paramount; at the same time, we must improve safety.

I hate to say this, but the Government is gambling with the lives of our fishermen. It withdrew safety grants because the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food had overspent. That was due to a combination of BSE compensation and expenditure on the pets quarantine scheme, compounded by a shortfall in the money expected from the sale of the Covent Garden complex. Pets before people: that is not good enough. A new approach is needed.

Conservation of fish stocks is being undermined by the dumping of dead fish. Equipment should include technology that protects undersized and immature stock, such as square-mesh panels. Zonal management would give our fishermen a say in their own future. Each species that is important to Scotland must be managed with forethought, to maximise conservation and catch. Haddock quotas have been reduced to profit cod and whiting, but the discards of small fish will negate any conservation benefit. A single TAC for monkfish will require skilful negotiation to ensure that Scottish fishermen have sufficient quotas, especially in the west. The prawn TAC should be enlarged to cover the extended area in which the species is now fished.

It is no good deciding a fishing policy annually; continuous reassessment, at least every quarter, is the way ahead. We believe that the advice of the Cullen blueprint report to locate the fisheries ministry in the north-east, close to the major part of the UK fishing industry, would bring that Government department closer to those most affected by it, and would fulfil the ideal of true devolution.

I move amendment S1M-358.2, to delete from \"calls\" to end and insert:

\"recognises that the current Common Fisheries Policy arrangements are failing our fishermen and calls upon the Scottish Executive to advocate reform of the CFP that devolves power to regional and zonal levels which would give our fishermen better control over the stocks of fish whilst recognising the traditional rights of other countries, and further calls for the fishing section of MAFF to be relocated to the North East of Scotland, the UK's main fishing centre, and that continuous assessment should replace the current practice of annual negotiation.\"

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C713419", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 163.0, "ContributionID": 713419, "EditedText": "Will the member give way again?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way again?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2140E187P335C713414", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Rumbles, Mike", "ID": 2140, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Rumbles", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Mike Rumbles (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 153.0, "ContributionID": 713414, "EditedText": "On behalf of the Liberal Democrats, I would like to welcome the fact that we have this fisheries debate today. We believe that the partnership Executive is effectively representing fishermen's interests, and has given fisheries a much higher profile. Having said that, I would like to make an appeal to the party business managers. We do not have long enough on these debates. It is an important issue, and I know that many speakers want to contribute. The Executive motion before us should be supported by everyone in the chamber. It is a lever, allowing us to debate the industry and enabling us to support the negotiating hand of the minister as he goes into the annual round of negotiations with our partners in Europe to gain the best possible outcome for Scottish fishermen. There has been much discussion in the press in the run-up to the negotiations. I like to think that the Scottish Liberal Democrats take a common-sense approach to promoting the interests of our fishermen. I will take the example of the issue of total allowable catches, TACs. We want there to be a real movement towards regional or zonal fisheries management, as many members have already mentioned, because we recognise the need for effective stock conservation, and also because of the need to reform the common fisheries policy. It is heartening to see that there is a remarkable singularity of view on that matter in the chamber, which is to be entirely welcomed. I am convinced, however, that the only way to secure those aims and protect Scottish fishermen is by engaging in positive co-operation with our European partners, not by competing with them. Turning to the Conservative amendment, I know that the Conservatives are a bit slow on the uptake, but I would like to inform Jamie McGrigor that, although he announced, in dramatic tones, that Franz Fischler is coming to see Scottish fishermen, the European Committee announced the same thing more than a month ago. He should get a bit more up to date. The Conservatives are the party of negativity and opposition for opposition's sake, as we have just heard. Their amendment removes the positive and inserts the negative. I would have hoped that they could have at least recognised the positive advantages to our fishermen of European co-operation.", "EditedTextHTML": "On behalf of the Liberal Democrats, I would like to welcome the fact that we have this fisheries debate today. We believe that the partnership Executive is effectively representing fishermen's interests, and has given fisheries a much higher profile. Having said that, I would like to make an appeal to the party business managers. We do not have long enough on these debates. It is an important issue, and I know that many speakers want to contribute.

The Executive motion before us should be supported by everyone in the chamber. It is a lever, allowing us to debate the industry and enabling us to support the negotiating hand of the minister as he goes into the annual round of negotiations with our partners in Europe to gain the best possible outcome for Scottish fishermen.

There has been much discussion in the press in the run-up to the negotiations. I like to think that the Scottish Liberal Democrats take a common-sense approach to promoting the interests of our fishermen. I will take the example of the issue of total allowable catches, TACs. We want there to be a real movement towards regional or zonal fisheries management, as many members have already mentioned, because we recognise the need for effective stock conservation, and also because of the need to reform the common fisheries policy.

It is heartening to see that there is a remarkable singularity of view on that matter in the chamber, which is to be entirely welcomed. I am convinced, however, that the only way to secure those aims and protect Scottish fishermen is by engaging in positive co-operation with our European partners, not by competing with them.

Turning to the Conservative amendment, I know that the Conservatives are a bit slow on the uptake, but I would like to inform Jamie McGrigor that, although he announced, in dramatic tones,

that Franz Fischler is coming to see Scottish fishermen, the European Committee announced the same thing more than a month ago. He should get a bit more up to date.

The Conservatives are the party of negativity and opposition for opposition's sake, as we have just heard. Their amendment removes the positive and inserts the negative. I would have hoped that they could have at least recognised the positive advantages to our fishermen of European co-operation.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2066E64P88C713423", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McGrigor, Jamie", "ID": 2066, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie McGrigor", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McGrigor: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 171.0, "ContributionID": 713423, "EditedText": "I am sorry that I reminded everyone that Franz Fischler is coming, but, as not all members are on the European Committee, some members may not have known. Talking of committees, when is some sort of response going to be given to the report of the Rural Affairs Committee on ASP? The poor scallop fishermen are getting poorer—they have nothing left. Does Mr Rumbles agree that they should not be given any compensation?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry that I reminded everyone that Franz Fischler is coming, but, as not all members are on the European Committee, some members may not have known.

Talking of committees, when is some sort of response going to be given to the report of the Rural Affairs Committee on ASP? The poor scallop fishermen are getting poorer—they have nothing left. Does Mr Rumbles agree that they should not be given any compensation?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2140E187P335C713430", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Rumbles, Mike", "ID": 2140, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Rumbles", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Rumbles: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 185.0, "ContributionID": 713430, "EditedText": "The focus should be on fisheries, not on generating anti-European or nationalistic rhetoric. The Liberal Democrats are not trying to justify the short-term and piecemeal way in which fisheries policies develop. Our priority is to find a constructive way forward that will deliver the goals that are shared by the fishing industry and all of us. That is why we should focus on the terms of the Executive motion that is before us today. All members should call on the Executive to seek the best possible outcome for Scottish fishermen that is consistent with sustainable fishing. We owe it to our fishermen to be positive and constructive, by supporting the motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "The focus should be on fisheries, not on generating anti-European or nationalistic rhetoric. The Liberal Democrats are not trying to justify the short-term and piecemeal way in which fisheries policies develop. Our priority is to find a constructive way forward that will deliver the goals that are shared by the fishing industry and all of us. That is why we should focus on the terms of the Executive motion that is before us today. All members should call on the Executive to seek the best possible outcome for Scottish fishermen that is consistent with sustainable fishing. We owe it to our fishermen to be positive and constructive, by supporting the motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C713431", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 187.0, "ContributionID": 713431, "EditedText": "We now move into the open part of this debate. Several members want to speak in what will be a relatively short debate. I therefore ask members to keep their speeches to no longer than four minutes.", "EditedTextHTML": "We now move into the open part of this debate. Several members want to speak in what will be a relatively short debate. I therefore ask members to keep their speeches to no longer than four minutes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2100E64P254C713434", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Home Robertson, John", "ID": 2100, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Lothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "John Home Robertson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Home Robertson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 195.0, "ContributionID": 713434, "EditedText": "The reason that the situation is on the agenda is that scientists have discovered a serious fall in monkfish stocks. I understand that the situation presents a problem for people on the west coast and we will consider how to mitigate the problem. Cuts will be phased in, for instance. The fundamental problem is that the stocks have collapsed and something must be done to rectify that situation.", "EditedTextHTML": "The reason that the situation is on the agenda is that scientists have discovered a serious fall in monkfish stocks. I understand that the situation presents a problem for people on the west coast and we will consider how to mitigate the problem. Cuts will be phased in, for instance. The fundamental problem is that the stocks have collapsed and something must be done to rectify that situation.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2100E64P254C713436", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Home Robertson, John", "ID": 2100, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Lothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "John Home Robertson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Home Robertson rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 199.0, "ContributionID": 713436, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1990E181P340C713439", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robson, Euan", "ID": 1990, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Roxburgh and Berwickshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Euan Robson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Euan Robson (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 207.0, "ContributionID": 713439, "EditedText": "I would like to make three brief points. I especially welcome the new approach on safety. The Scottish sea fishing safety scheme is a good idea. I congratulate the minister on dispelling some of the confusion that the Deputy Prime Minister might have created some weeks ago. It is important that boats under 12 m in length are included—that is very useful. I agree especially with the point—the minister made it forcefully—about creating a safety culture. I look forward to hearing about progress on that and about his talks with the industry in the coming months. I am glad that the minister was able to negotiate the extra North sea prawn quota, which allows boats of under 10 m to continue to fish. There was a danger that they would be tied up at the quay for three months. However, it is important that that lesson is taken into the December talks, so that we can get a higher quota. As I understand the scientific evidence, there is extra capacity and I wish the minister success in achieving a higher quota. I ask the minister to examine engine size and related problems carefully. There must be more flexibility in the approach to this matter, as there are difficulties. He and I have corresponded on some of them. I ask him to take to the European Union the strong view of this Parliament that there should be flexibility in the rules governing engine size, in order to cope with some of the circumstances—misunderstandings and mistakes—that arise. Flexibility would allow for fewer unnecessary penalties on fisherman, which can sometimes be imposed as a result of difficulties with engine capacity.", "EditedTextHTML": "I would like to make three brief points. I especially welcome the new approach on safety. The Scottish sea fishing safety scheme is a good idea.

I congratulate the minister on dispelling some of the confusion that the Deputy Prime Minister might have created some weeks ago. It is important that boats under 12 m in length are included—that is very useful. I agree especially with the point—the minister made it forcefully—about creating a safety culture. I look forward to hearing about progress on that and about his talks with the industry in the coming months.

I am glad that the minister was able to negotiate the extra North sea prawn quota, which allows boats of under 10 m to continue to fish. There was a danger that they would be tied up at the quay for three months. However, it is important that that lesson is taken into the December talks, so that we can get a higher quota. As I understand the scientific evidence, there is extra capacity and I wish the minister success in achieving a higher quota.

I ask the minister to examine engine size and related problems carefully. There must be more flexibility in the approach to this matter, as there are difficulties. He and I have corresponded on some of them. I ask him to take to the European Union the strong view of this Parliament that there should be flexibility in the rules governing engine size, in order to cope with some of the circumstances—misunderstandings and mistakes—that arise. Flexibility would allow for fewer unnecessary penalties on fisherman, which can sometimes be imposed as a result of difficulties with engine capacity.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1878E208P502C713441", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Dr Winnie", "ID": 1878, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Winnie Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Winnie Ewing (Highlands and Islands) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 212.0, "ContributionID": 713441, "EditedText": "When Scotland is once again an independent, normal country, the history books will look for the reasons why. I believe that one of those reasons will be the sell-out over the 6,000 square miles, which will be equated with the sell-out by those who signed the Treaty of Union. I have been asking for the true reasons behind that extraordinary sleight-of-hand, dead-of-night, stealthy theft. One reason we were given was that the median line had to be tidied up. The expert on the subject, who advised the Government on the petroleum boundary, which gave Scotland the boundaries we always thought we had, examined all international fishing boundary disputes for decades and found that two thirds were not settled by the median line. That is not in dispute, nor is it in dispute that the Treaty of Union gave Scotland total control over criminal law—I regard that theft as a breach of the Treaty of Union. It is not in dispute that there was no international demand for the boundary change—which, apparently, came at the initiative of the Scottish Executive—nor is it in dispute that there was no consultation with the fishing associations of Scotland or England, all of which were absolutely astonished and furious that they had not been consulted. What about consensus politics? Fishing experts from non-Executive parties were not even given the courtesy of being told about such a major change. Alex Fergusson (South of Scotland) (Con)rose—", "EditedTextHTML": "When Scotland is once again an independent, normal country, the history books will look for the reasons why. I believe that one of those reasons will be the sell-out over the 6,000 square miles, which will be equated with the sell-out by those who signed the Treaty of Union.

I have been asking for the true reasons behind that extraordinary sleight-of-hand, dead-of-night, stealthy theft. One reason we were given was that the median line had to be tidied up. The expert on the subject, who advised the Government on the petroleum boundary, which gave Scotland the boundaries we always thought we had, examined all international fishing boundary disputes for decades and found that two thirds were not settled by the median line. That is not in dispute, nor is it in dispute that the Treaty of Union gave Scotland total control over criminal law—I regard that theft as a breach of the Treaty of Union.

It is not in dispute that there was no international demand for the boundary change—which,

apparently, came at the initiative of the Scottish Executive—nor is it in dispute that there was no consultation with the fishing associations of Scotland or England, all of which were absolutely astonished and furious that they had not been consulted. What about consensus politics? Fishing experts from non-Executive parties were not even given the courtesy of being told about such a major change.

Alex Fergusson (South of Scotland) (Con)

rose—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2117E79P104C713447", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macdonald, Lewis", "ID": 2117, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lewis Macdonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Lewis Macdonald: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 225.0, "ContributionID": 713447, "EditedText": "I am afraid that I cannot give way during my summing-up. We should unite to wish the minister well and to seek the best possible outcome of the Fisheries Council later this month.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am afraid that I cannot give way during my summing-up.

We should unite to wish the minister well and to seek the best possible outcome of the Fisheries Council later this month.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C713451", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 235.0, "ContributionID": 713451, "EditedText": "I will not make a facetious point about the sheriff court in Duns being 11 miles from Berwick, although I welcome the ministerial assurance that there will continue to be a sheriff court in Duns. If there are different regulations in what are now English and Scottish waters, how will the industry be affected? Even at this stage, is not the minister prepared to envisage the possibility of difficulties in future—difficulties that non-political and non- excitable men in the Scottish Fishermen's Federation continue to emphasise? The Liberals were quoted in the press last week as saying that the mood in the chamber is that that issue should be re-examined by Parliament. I hope that, even now, the minister will dig himself out of the hole into which he has dug himself over the matter—a matter on which his dogged refusal to address the industry's and the Parliament's concerns seems unnecessarily abrasive and confrontational. It would be pertinent for the Parliament to go back to Westminster and ask that the matter be re-examined. When the report comes out tomorrow, I hope that the minister will agree that Parliament can discuss the matter and that it can set about undoing what is undoubtedly a mistake made initially at Westminster, but compounded by the error that this Parliament made in June. Parliament can remedy that error if the minister will agree to co-operate with Parliament. I trust that he will take the opportunity to do that.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will not make a facetious point about the sheriff court in Duns being 11 miles from Berwick, although I welcome the ministerial assurance that there will continue to be a sheriff court in Duns.

If there are different regulations in what are now English and Scottish waters, how will the industry be affected? Even at this stage, is not the minister prepared to envisage the possibility of difficulties in future—difficulties that non-political and non- excitable men in the Scottish Fishermen's Federation continue to emphasise? The Liberals were quoted in the press last week as saying that the mood in the chamber is that that issue should be re-examined by Parliament. I hope that, even now, the minister will dig himself out of the hole into which he has dug himself over the matter—a matter on which his dogged refusal to address the industry's and the Parliament's concerns seems unnecessarily abrasive and confrontational. It would be pertinent for the Parliament to go back to Westminster and ask that the matter be re-examined.

When the report comes out tomorrow, I hope that the minister will agree that Parliament can discuss the matter and that it can set about undoing what is undoubtedly a mistake made initially at Westminster, but compounded by the error that this Parliament made in June. Parliament can remedy that error if the minister will agree to co-operate with Parliament. I trust that he will take the opportunity to do that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2223E203P342C713452", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scott, Tavish", "ID": 2223, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Shetland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tavish Scott", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tavish Scott (Shetland) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 238.0, "ContributionID": 713452, "EditedText": "I know that you, Presiding Officer, have some personal interest in fisheries and that you know some of the leading lights in Shetland—my part of the world. I was reflecting on that last night as I went through fisheries papers. The fishing industry in Shetland is crucial and is worth some £160 million. The December Fisheries Council is seen by many people in Shetland as a necessary and anticipated evil. The secretary of the Shetland Fishermen's Association is on local radio more than the local MSP—which is, of course, a great relief to the people of Shetland. The council is an important time and we should go forward in the constructive manner that has, on the whole, been suggested by what we have heard today. I wish that people had concentrated on the fact that we are debating the Fisheries Council, rather than some of the other— more necessary, as some would see it—political items. I would like to pick up on a number of points that have been raised. When the European Committee discussed fisheries briefly yesterday, the view that was expressed—a view that comes across strongly in the representations that we receive from the industry—was that an annual ritualistic cycle is no way to run a business. Fishing and fishermen with their boats are a business and should be seen as such. They must plan and invest year to year, but trying to do that when it is not clear what will happen and when there are rises and falls in planning quotas is not an appropriate way to run an industry. I agree with what Richard Lochhead and others have said about continuous assessment of quotas. I hope the Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs will support that. The principle that fishermen should be involved in industry decision-making processes leading to stock assessments is crucial. I encourage the minister to take that forward in every way he can. Elaine Thomson mentioned the relationship between scientists and fishermen. The way in which the North Atlantic Fisheries College in Shetland works is an excellent example of that. I read the Hansard report of the recent Westminster debate that Alex Salmond mentioned and noticed that the MP for Great Grimsby, Mr Mitchell, suggested Grimsby as the location for the national institute of fisheries, recommended by a recent House of Commons select committee report. Andrew George, speaking for the Liberal Democrats, pointed out that in an age of information technology a national institute could be spread round institutes and sites of scientific skills around the whole of the UK. The North Atlantic Fisheries College in Shetland is the premier example in Scotland and I hope that all parties will support a role for it in such a concept. Important points were made today about measures to conserve fish. They should be supported by all parties. Lewis Macdonald made those points well. I tried to demonstrate to the European Committee yesterday—rather badly, I may say—the benefits of different styles of net. I will not go into that again. The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs knows the arguments; there is a real mood for conservation changes in the haddock fishery. Murray Tosh did not seem quite to pick up that point—we are talking about haddock, not all species. If he had read the Scottish Fishermen's Federation brief, he would have seen, on haddock: \"The Federation's objective is to restore the quota by adopting, unilaterally, additional technical conservation measures.\" That is a legitimate and very important point for the future of sustainable fishing of that species. The minister's announcement on safety was good. Since he mentioned horsepower, will he in his winding-up speech consider that the really important issue there is dealing with the different regimes that apply across Europe? Our fishermen must not be disadvantaged by a horsepower regime that is different from that in the rest of Europe.", "EditedTextHTML": "I know that you, Presiding Officer, have some personal interest in fisheries and that you know some of the leading lights in Shetland—my part of the world. I was reflecting on that last night as I went through fisheries papers. The fishing industry in Shetland is crucial and is worth some £160 million. The December Fisheries Council is seen by many people in Shetland as a necessary and anticipated evil.

The secretary of the Shetland Fishermen's Association is on local radio more than the local MSP—which is, of course, a great relief to the people of Shetland. The council is an important time and we should go forward in the constructive manner that has, on the whole, been suggested by what we have heard today. I wish that people had concentrated on the fact that we are debating the Fisheries Council, rather than some of the other— more necessary, as some would see it—political items.

I would like to pick up on a number of points that have been raised. When the European Committee discussed fisheries briefly yesterday, the view that was expressed—a view that comes across strongly in the representations that we receive from the industry—was that an annual ritualistic cycle is no way to run a business.

Fishing and fishermen with their boats are a business and should be seen as such. They must plan and invest year to year, but trying to do that

when it is not clear what will happen and when there are rises and falls in planning quotas is not an appropriate way to run an industry. I agree with what Richard Lochhead and others have said about continuous assessment of quotas. I hope the Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs will support that.

The principle that fishermen should be involved in industry decision-making processes leading to stock assessments is crucial. I encourage the minister to take that forward in every way he can. Elaine Thomson mentioned the relationship between scientists and fishermen. The way in which the North Atlantic Fisheries College in Shetland works is an excellent example of that.

I read the Hansard report of the recent Westminster debate that Alex Salmond mentioned and noticed that the MP for Great Grimsby, Mr Mitchell, suggested Grimsby as the location for the national institute of fisheries, recommended by a recent House of Commons select committee report. Andrew George, speaking for the Liberal Democrats, pointed out that in an age of information technology a national institute could be spread round institutes and sites of scientific skills around the whole of the UK. The North Atlantic Fisheries College in Shetland is the premier example in Scotland and I hope that all parties will support a role for it in such a concept.

Important points were made today about measures to conserve fish. They should be supported by all parties. Lewis Macdonald made those points well. I tried to demonstrate to the European Committee yesterday—rather badly, I may say—the benefits of different styles of net. I will not go into that again. The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs knows the arguments; there is a real mood for conservation changes in the haddock fishery. Murray Tosh did not seem quite to pick up that point—we are talking about haddock, not all species. If he had read the Scottish Fishermen's Federation brief, he would have seen, on haddock:

\"The Federation's objective is to restore the quota by adopting, unilaterally, additional technical conservation measures.\"

That is a legitimate and very important point for the future of sustainable fishing of that species.

The minister's announcement on safety was good. Since he mentioned horsepower, will he in his winding-up speech consider that the really important issue there is dealing with the different regimes that apply across Europe? Our fishermen must not be disadvantaged by a horsepower regime that is different from that in the rest of Europe.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2223E203P342C713454", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scott, Tavish", "ID": 2223, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Shetland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tavish Scott", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tavish Scott: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 242.0, "ContributionID": 713454, "EditedText": "Thank you. Fishing is a hugely important Scottish industry, it is right for us to have a debate on it now, and I hope the Parliament will support the motion in the name of the minister.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you. Fishing is a hugely important Scottish industry, it is right for us to have a debate on it now, and I hope the Parliament will support the motion in the name of the minister.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C713455", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr David Davidson (North-East Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 245.0, "ContributionID": 713455, "EditedText": "Today's debate is about a sustainable future for the Scottish fishing industry and I welcome it—and, Dr Ewing, my family was heavily involved in the fishing industry until quite recently. The fishing sector is not just about catching fish: it is about all the other jobs that back it up, such as boat repairs and servicing; bunkering; catering; net manufacture and repair; harbour and market staff; and the training, which Richard Lochhead mentioned, in Banff and Buchan College, Aberdeen College and others. The haulage industry is also a key part of it. Unfortunately, the Labour Government has not assisted it, so the fish processing industry is now being run more or less from France and not by indigenous operators. The minister fleetingly mentioned the fish processing industry and the European waste water directive. Sarah Boyack was in this chamber when I had the honour of the first member's debate. She came here without any real understanding of what we were talking about. She thought that it was a green argument; we were talking about industrial survival and the need for the Government to use its powers. We just got a rejection. What the minister can do now is take the message back to the various departments, in Edinburgh and in the south, and say: \"Look, we have got regional funds. What do we need to do to help the fish processors stay alive?\" Through the directive, they have to go into the new treatment schemes; many cannot afford it.", "EditedTextHTML": "Today's debate is about a sustainable future for the Scottish fishing industry and I welcome it—and, Dr Ewing, my family was heavily involved in the fishing industry until quite recently.

The fishing sector is not just about catching fish: it is about all the other jobs that back it up, such as boat repairs and servicing; bunkering; catering; net manufacture and repair; harbour and market staff; and the training, which Richard Lochhead mentioned, in Banff and Buchan College, Aberdeen College and others. The haulage industry is also a key part of it. Unfortunately, the Labour Government has not assisted it, so the fish processing industry is now being run more or less from France and not by indigenous operators.

The minister fleetingly mentioned the fish processing industry and the European waste water directive. Sarah Boyack was in this chamber when I had the honour of the first member's debate. She came here without any real understanding of what we were talking about. She thought that it was a green argument; we were talking about industrial survival and the need for the Government to use its powers. We just got a rejection.

What the minister can do now is take the message back to the various departments, in Edinburgh and in the south, and say: \"Look, we have got regional funds. What do we need to do to help the fish processors stay alive?\" Through the directive, they have to go into the new treatment schemes; many cannot afford it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C713457", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Davidson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 249.0, "ContributionID": 713457, "EditedText": "In a moment, Lewis.Years 1 and 2 will probably be dealt with. A wonderful scheme in Aberdeen has been mentioned already. In other areas, that may not be affordable. We need a little bit of intervention, because in the past other indigenous industries have received direct support, in capital form, to enable them to carry on and provide jobs. If processing goes, market landings will die, our ports will wither and fishermen will go abroad. We are talking about massive damage to Scottish fishing communities. I hope that the minister will take that message away.", "EditedTextHTML": "In a moment, Lewis.

Years 1 and 2 will probably be dealt with. A wonderful scheme in Aberdeen has been mentioned already. In other areas, that may not be affordable. We need a little bit of intervention, because in the past other indigenous industries have received direct support, in capital form, to enable them to carry on and provide jobs. If processing goes, market landings will die, our ports will wither and fishermen will go abroad. We are talking about massive damage to Scottish fishing communities. I hope that the minister will take that message away.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C713467", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Davidson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 269.0, "ContributionID": 713467, "EditedText": "It is a shame that Mike Rumbles picked on one little aspect, instead of going for the jugular and coming up with something sensible. I will touch briefly on the Liberal contribution—at least, I think that is what it was meant to be. Once again we saw Mike Rumbles fishing for ideas. He was asked time and again whether his party agrees totally with the Labour group. Or is it only him? Even Mr Scott was quite honest about his approach. I thank John Farquhar Munro for his wonderful speech, which was delivered with gusto, feeling and realism, on the crisis facing the different aspects of the fishing community in Scotland. There is cross-party agreement. I hope that we can work together, but that very much depends on the minister coming back to the chamber and telling us what he is doing.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is a shame that Mike Rumbles picked on one little aspect, instead of going for the jugular and coming up with something sensible.

I will touch briefly on the Liberal contribution—at least, I think that is what it was meant to be. Once again we saw Mike Rumbles fishing for ideas. He was asked time and again whether his party agrees totally with the Labour group. Or is it only him? Even Mr Scott was quite honest about his approach. I thank John Farquhar Munro for his wonderful speech, which was delivered with gusto, feeling and realism, on the crisis facing the different aspects of the fishing community in Scotland. There is cross-party agreement. I hope that we can work together, but that very much depends on the minister coming back to the chamber and telling us what he is doing.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C713486", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ross Finnie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 309.0, "ContributionID": 713486, "EditedText": "No, I will finish this point.To take that view is to misunderstand completely the way in which the devolved settlement operates. We are now in a position in which there must be consensus at UK level as to how we operate. I can assure Richard Lochhead that on the question of fisheries, where the pre-eminent position of Scottish fisheries is well known, Scotland's position in arguing what the UK line should be is a strong one.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I will finish this point.

To take that view is to misunderstand completely the way in which the devolved settlement operates. We are now in a position in which there must be consensus at UK level as to how we operate. I can assure Richard Lochhead that on the question of fisheries, where the pre-eminent position of Scottish fisheries is well known, Scotland's position in arguing what the UK line should be is a strong one.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C713490", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ross Finnie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 317.0, "ContributionID": 713490, "EditedText": "Mr McGrigor advances that opinion, but it is a matter that ought to be debated with the Minister for Health and Community Care, as food safety is her responsibility. Duncan Hamilton and Jamie McGrigor both mentioned compensation. Many people in the industry have been able to avail themselves of alternative fisheries. I accept that a small number of fishermen have been unable to do that, and John Home Robertson is therefore examining the situation again. I shall address some of the other questions that were raised. I note Jamie McGrigor's points about safety.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr McGrigor advances that opinion, but it is a matter that ought to be debated with the Minister for Health and Community Care, as food safety is her responsibility.

Duncan Hamilton and Jamie McGrigor both mentioned compensation. Many people in the industry have been able to avail themselves of alternative fisheries. I accept that a small number of fishermen have been unable to do that, and John Home Robertson is therefore examining the situation again.

I shall address some of the other questions that were raised. I note Jamie McGrigor's points about safety.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C713494", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ross Finnie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 325.0, "ContributionID": 713494, "EditedText": "In this instance, we have done exactly what Mr Tosh asked, and have secured an agreement on haddock, which will not give rise to such a problem. I believe that we are clear that this is a most important industry. We are clear that Mr John Home Robertson will represent Scotland's interests in this important matter. At the forthcoming Fisheries Council, he will have one objective and one objective only, to obtain the best possible settlement for the Scottish fishing industry and its future.", "EditedTextHTML": "In this instance, we have done exactly what Mr Tosh asked, and have secured an agreement on haddock, which will not give rise to such a problem.

I believe that we are clear that this is a most important industry. We are clear that Mr John Home Robertson will represent Scotland's interests in this important matter. At the forthcoming Fisheries Council, he will have one objective and one objective only, to obtain the best possible settlement for the Scottish fishing industry and its future.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713499", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27186, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 332.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 332.0, "ID": 27186, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 336.0, "ContributionID": 713499, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.545081+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713501", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27186, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 332.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 332.0, "ID": 27186, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 340.0, "ContributionID": 713501, "EditedText": "FOR Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)AGAINST Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Johnston, Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)(LD)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)

AGAINST

Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Johnston, Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)
(LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.545081+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713506", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27186, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 332.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 332.0, "ID": 27186, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 348.0, "ContributionID": 713506, "EditedText": "There will be a division.", "EditedTextHTML": "There will be a division.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.545081+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713507", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27186, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 332.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 332.0, "ID": 27186, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 350.0, "ContributionID": 713507, "EditedText": "FOR Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnston, Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)AGAINST Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)(LD)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnston, Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)

AGAINST

Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)
(LD)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.545081+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713513", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27186, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 332.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 332.0, "ID": 27186, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 358.0, "ContributionID": 713513, "EditedText": "The fourth question is, that motion S1M-344, in the name of Mr John Home Robertson, on the Sea Fishing Grants (Charges) Bill, be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "The fourth question is, that motion S1M-344, in the name of Mr John Home Robertson, on the Sea Fishing Grants (Charges) Bill, be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.545081+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713518", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Hawick", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27187, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 362.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 362.0, "ID": 27187, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 366.0, "ContributionID": 713518, "EditedText": "That the Parliament notes with concern the recently reported decline in the population of Hawick, appreciates the work already underway to develop the town and broaden the base of its economy, understands the need for further investments, commends the New Ways economic strategy for the Scottish Borders and hopes that this will lead to the creation of more opportunity to keep young people in the town and the region.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament notes with concern the recently reported decline in the population of Hawick, appreciates the work already underway to develop the town and broaden the base of its economy, understands the need for further investments, commends the New Ways economic strategy for the Scottish Borders and hopes that this will lead to the creation of more opportunity to keep young people in the town and the region.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.545081+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1990E181P340C713519", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Hawick", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27187, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 362.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 362.0, "ID": 27187, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robson, Euan", "ID": 1990, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Roxburgh and Berwickshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Euan Robson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Euan Robson (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 368.0, "ContributionID": 713519, "EditedText": "I express my appreciation of the opportunity to address Parliament about the problems and opportunities facing Hawick, which is the largest town in my constituency. It is a particular privilege to speak before you, Sir David, as you represented Hawick and Roxburghshire with such distinction between 1964 and 1983. Hawick is the most distant of the Scottish Borders towns from Edinburgh; in fact, it is seven miles closer to Carlisle than to the capital city. It has a proud history. To take the example of artists, Tom Scott, Anne Redpath and William Johnstone lived either in the town or nearby. Hawick's economy has had a battering over the past 18 months with the loss of manufacturing jobs, but I want to emphasise the strong signs of recovery and the opportunities in the town. In addition to the severe recession in agriculture, which affected the town because it supplies services and goods to farmers in the surrounding areas, Hawick suffered from the Viasystems closure because many residents commuted to the company's plants in Selkirk and Galashiels. Doubtless, Hawick will benefit from the Manpower call centre in Selkirk, and from the Signum Circuits expansion in the former Viasystems plant in Selkirk. The notorious banana wars posed probably the biggest threat for generations to the prosperity of Hawick. Sixty per cent of all Borders textiles employment is in Hawick. Hawick's cashmere industry is a major employer and export earner. I pay tribute to all those who fought off the threat of tariffs: my colleagues, MPs Michael Moore and Archy Kirkwood; industry leaders, in particular; Scottish Borders Enterprise; and Scottish Borders Council. I am pleased to report that cashmere order books from the USA, in particular, are now bulging; there is welcome contract work for smaller cashmere firms and overtime for some employees. That underlines the fact that textiles and knitwear is not a sunset industry—some people in Hawick fear that that view still lurks in the enterprise and lifelong learning department and in Scottish Enterprise. I think that that fear is unfounded. I welcome the work of the Scottish textiles network, which was set up by Scottish Enterprise, and the fact that, in January, Henry McLeish will chair a workshop on the industry. Nevertheless, it would be a significant boost if the minister could dispel that impression once and for all today. Textiles and knitwear will remain important to the economy of Hawick and the Borders for many years. However, products will have to be at the quality end of the market. The skills base and the loyalty and dedication of the work force are, of course, second to none. There will always be a demand for the best in the marketplace; that is supplied by Hawick and the Borders. I back the campaign to build up the worldwide image of the cashmere industry and the initiative to develop tourist-related trade. The Borders should be known and signposted as \"Cashmere Country\". Of course, there is some nervousness in Hawick about the future of Pringle of Scotland, the sale of which by Dawson International is imminent. My parliamentary colleagues and I have impressed upon Dawson International the need to sell Pringle as a manufacturing entity rather than just to dispose of the name. We received some assurances on that point, but it is the new owners who will make the decisions. I ask the minister to back the call for the continuing manufacturing presence of Pringle in Hawick and to offer assistance as necessary to secure local production and jobs. The base of Hawick's economy must be diversified. A start has been made with the opening of Allflex Europe (UK) Ltd in Galalaw and the establishment of Lion Speciality Foods. The new ways strategy, born out of the Borders working party's final report, \"Rebuilding the Borders Economy\", will deliver success in the coming months. However, I draw the minister's attention to the critical issue of funding, and I illustrate it in the context of Hawick. The town has a real shortage of modern industrial units. Too many firms are in old buildings that are either beyond their useful life or can be repaired only at disproportionate cost, and there are a lot of empty but unsuitable buildings. Scottish Borders Enterprise and Scottish Borders Council can help, as evidenced by the new Mainetti factory. However, addressing the market failure requires investment beyond what can be realistically expected from the private sector. The public sector will have to help. The success of the campaign for European Union objective 2 funding and the return to the Borders of regional selective assistance— removed by the Tory Government in 1982—can deliver such investment, but only with match funding; there will be no quick fix. When the former Scottish Office minister, Brian Wilson, visited Hawick in February this year, he talked about a down payment of £1 million for the Borders. There needs to be a sustained, consistent level of funding from Scottish Enterprise to the local enterprise company. Perhaps the minister can use his influence to ask Scottish Enterprise to roll the special category funding into Scottish Borders Enterprise's base budget. Scottish Borders Council also needs resources to progress the schemes that its economic development department, in particular, has in preparation. We won objective 2 funding because the Borders is an economy in transition; nowhere is that more true than in Hawick, which epitomises why objective 2 was so necessary. I argue that Scottish Borders Enterprise ought to have an enhanced and consistent level of funding over the six years of the objective 2 programme, especially as the programme has a tighter timetable than that of objective 5b. I also ask the minister to remember the needs of skills retraining, emphasised in the new ways economic development strategy. Objective 3 will be annualised, and we will need to bid for funds from the central pot. I ask the minister to ensure that the Borders receives a fair share. There is much to look forward to in Hawick. Apart from the initial disruption, the inner relief road, which will open next year, will help the town. Work planned on the A7 and A68 will improve communications, but I emphasise the need for work on the A7 south of the town, especially around Langholm, and I salute the work of the A7 action group. Hawick will benefit from a return of the railway to the Borders. The outcome of the feasibility study on that is awaited with interest. Although it is unrealistic to believe that the line could return to the town in the short term, there is a case for its eventual return. I trust that ministers will consider not only the economic case when making investment decisions, but also issues of sustainability, environmental protection and social inclusion. I warmly welcome the work of the Waverley line heritage centre group; the welcome host initiative is a success and has gathered much useful information, encouraging visitors to stay longer. Hawick has underdeveloped facilities, such as the superb Wilton park—a hidden asset—and its museum. However, there is not one Hawick facility in the list of the top visitor attractions in \"Scottish Borders in Figures\". I know that the Scottish Borders Tourist Board has that on its agenda. The tourist information centre in Drumlanrig's Tower is helping to develop the town's tourism potential. I am anxious that there should be confirmation of a starting date for the town's new hospital. That will give a further local boost and will demonstrate further confidence in the town's future. The new Aldi supermarket is welcome and, now that the decision has been taken to renovate Tower Mill, I hope that work can proceed swiftly. Its state of dereliction has been a blot on the landscape for too long. There is tremendous potential, particularly on Hawick's High Street, and I hope that the heart of Hawick project will, in due course, improve the area considerably. I have written to all cinema companies in the UK, asking that they consider reviving the cinema in the town, and will work closely with Scottish Borders Council's leisure and recreation department, who have done so much to advance the case. I also believe that the town needs another hotel, perhaps one of a chain, to encourage more overnight stays. In the 1991 census, Hawick's population was 15,719. A study by Scottish Borders Council showed that the figure for 1998 was just over 15,000, a drop of about 4.5 per cent compared with the 3 per cent rise in the population of Scottish Borders over the same period. Behind those figures is a worrying trend. As was noted in the new ways economic development strategy for the Borders, young people are moving out of the area. The Borders has the highest proportion in Scotland of people aged over 65 and over 75. What is happening to our young people? According to Scottish Borders Careers, the percentage of school leavers entering employment decreased from 29.4 per cent in 1987-88 to 17.3 per cent in 1997-98. However, in those 10 years, the percentage of school leavers entering higher and further education almost doubled, from 32.1 per cent to 64.4 per cent. In 1997-98, only 11 per cent of school leavers went on to higher education in the Borders, but 83.4 per cent of those who opted for further education went to facilities in the Borders. I believe that there are two lessons to be learned from those figures. To keep more of our young people, we need to develop local higher education opportunities and I recognise the work of Heriot- Watt University in developing its campus in Galashiels. We must also develop distance learning and I want to highlight the pioneering work of Borders College, which is a contract partner in the Scottish university for industry consortium led by Napier University. The college opened a pilot learning centre in Hawick in September and is planning several more learning centres, including facilities in Galashiels, Jedburgh, Selkirk and Newcastleton. It is also important to attract our young people back to the Borders and to see others settling and making their careers in Hawick and other Borders towns. Given the level of interest and commitment by the partnership of local agencies working with the Scottish Executive and the Scottish Parliament, the new ways strategy can deliver the thriving organisations, vibrant communities and connected places that will achieve that goal. Finally, I extend to the minister an invitation to visit Hawick in the new year to see some of the things that I have mentioned. I hope that he will be able to accept.", "EditedTextHTML": "I express my appreciation of the opportunity to address Parliament about the problems and opportunities facing Hawick, which is the largest town in my constituency. It is a particular privilege to speak before you, Sir David, as you represented Hawick and Roxburghshire with such distinction between 1964 and 1983.

Hawick is the most distant of the Scottish Borders towns from Edinburgh; in fact, it is seven miles closer to Carlisle than to the capital city. It has a proud history. To take the example of artists, Tom Scott, Anne Redpath and William Johnstone lived either in the town or nearby.

Hawick's economy has had a battering over the past 18 months with the loss of manufacturing jobs, but I want to emphasise the strong signs of recovery and the opportunities in the town.

In addition to the severe recession in agriculture, which affected the town because it supplies services and goods to farmers in the surrounding areas, Hawick suffered from the Viasystems closure because many residents commuted to the company's plants in Selkirk and Galashiels. Doubtless, Hawick will benefit from the Manpower call centre in Selkirk, and from the Signum Circuits expansion in the former Viasystems plant in Selkirk.

The notorious banana wars posed probably the biggest threat for generations to the prosperity of Hawick. Sixty per cent of all Borders textiles employment is in Hawick. Hawick's cashmere industry is a major employer and export earner. I pay tribute to all those who fought off the threat of tariffs: my colleagues, MPs Michael Moore and Archy Kirkwood; industry leaders, in particular; Scottish Borders Enterprise; and Scottish Borders Council.

I am pleased to report that cashmere order books from the USA, in particular, are now bulging; there is welcome contract work for smaller cashmere firms and overtime for some employees. That underlines the fact that textiles and knitwear is not a sunset industry—some people in Hawick fear that that view still lurks in the enterprise and lifelong learning department and in Scottish Enterprise. I think that that fear is unfounded. I welcome the work of the Scottish textiles network, which was set up by Scottish Enterprise, and the fact that, in January, Henry McLeish will chair a workshop on the industry. Nevertheless, it would be a significant boost if the minister could dispel that impression once and for all today.

Textiles and knitwear will remain important to the economy of Hawick and the Borders for many years. However, products will have to be at the quality end of the market. The skills base and the loyalty and dedication of the work force are, of course, second to none. There will always be a demand for the best in the marketplace; that is supplied by Hawick and the Borders.

I back the campaign to build up the worldwide image of the cashmere industry and the initiative to develop tourist-related trade. The Borders should be known and signposted as \"Cashmere Country\".

Of course, there is some nervousness in Hawick about the future of Pringle of Scotland, the sale of which by Dawson International is imminent. My parliamentary colleagues and I have impressed upon Dawson International the need to sell Pringle as a manufacturing entity rather than just to dispose of the name. We received some assurances on that point, but it is the new owners who will make the decisions. I ask the minister to back the call for the continuing manufacturing presence of Pringle in Hawick and to offer assistance as necessary to secure local production and jobs.

The base of Hawick's economy must be diversified. A start has been made with the opening of Allflex Europe (UK) Ltd in Galalaw and the establishment of Lion Speciality Foods. The new ways strategy, born out of the Borders working party's final report, \"Rebuilding the Borders Economy\", will deliver success in the coming months. However, I draw the minister's attention to the critical issue of funding, and I illustrate it in the context of Hawick.

The town has a real shortage of modern industrial units. Too many firms are in old buildings

that are either beyond their useful life or can be repaired only at disproportionate cost, and there are a lot of empty but unsuitable buildings. Scottish Borders Enterprise and Scottish Borders Council can help, as evidenced by the new Mainetti factory. However, addressing the market failure requires investment beyond what can be realistically expected from the private sector. The public sector will have to help.

The success of the campaign for European Union objective 2 funding and the return to the Borders of regional selective assistance— removed by the Tory Government in 1982—can deliver such investment, but only with match funding; there will be no quick fix.

When the former Scottish Office minister, Brian Wilson, visited Hawick in February this year, he talked about a down payment of £1 million for the Borders. There needs to be a sustained, consistent level of funding from Scottish Enterprise to the local enterprise company. Perhaps the minister can use his influence to ask Scottish Enterprise to roll the special category funding into Scottish Borders Enterprise's base budget. Scottish Borders Council also needs resources to progress the schemes that its economic development department, in particular, has in preparation.

We won objective 2 funding because the Borders is an economy in transition; nowhere is that more true than in Hawick, which epitomises why objective 2 was so necessary.

I argue that Scottish Borders Enterprise ought to have an enhanced and consistent level of funding over the six years of the objective 2 programme, especially as the programme has a tighter timetable than that of objective 5b. I also ask the minister to remember the needs of skills retraining, emphasised in the new ways economic development strategy. Objective 3 will be annualised, and we will need to bid for funds from the central pot. I ask the minister to ensure that the Borders receives a fair share.

There is much to look forward to in Hawick. Apart from the initial disruption, the inner relief road, which will open next year, will help the town. Work planned on the A7 and A68 will improve communications, but I emphasise the need for work on the A7 south of the town, especially around Langholm, and I salute the work of the A7 action group.

Hawick will benefit from a return of the railway to the Borders. The outcome of the feasibility study on that is awaited with interest. Although it is unrealistic to believe that the line could return to the town in the short term, there is a case for its eventual return. I trust that ministers will consider not only the economic case when making investment decisions, but also issues of sustainability, environmental protection and social inclusion.

I warmly welcome the work of the Waverley line heritage centre group; the welcome host initiative is a success and has gathered much useful information, encouraging visitors to stay longer.

Hawick has underdeveloped facilities, such as the superb Wilton park—a hidden asset—and its museum. However, there is not one Hawick facility in the list of the top visitor attractions in \"Scottish Borders in Figures\". I know that the Scottish Borders Tourist Board has that on its agenda. The tourist information centre in Drumlanrig's Tower is helping to develop the town's tourism potential.

I am anxious that there should be confirmation of a starting date for the town's new hospital. That will give a further local boost and will demonstrate further confidence in the town's future.

The new Aldi supermarket is welcome and, now that the decision has been taken to renovate Tower Mill, I hope that work can proceed swiftly. Its state of dereliction has been a blot on the landscape for too long. There is tremendous potential, particularly on Hawick's High Street, and I hope that the heart of Hawick project will, in due course, improve the area considerably.

I have written to all cinema companies in the UK, asking that they consider reviving the cinema in the town, and will work closely with Scottish Borders Council's leisure and recreation department, who have done so much to advance the case. I also believe that the town needs another hotel, perhaps one of a chain, to encourage more overnight stays.

In the 1991 census, Hawick's population was 15,719. A study by Scottish Borders Council showed that the figure for 1998 was just over 15,000, a drop of about 4.5 per cent compared with the 3 per cent rise in the population of Scottish Borders over the same period. Behind those figures is a worrying trend. As was noted in the new ways economic development strategy for the Borders, young people are moving out of the area. The Borders has the highest proportion in Scotland of people aged over 65 and over 75.

What is happening to our young people? According to Scottish Borders Careers, the percentage of school leavers entering employment decreased from 29.4 per cent in 1987-88 to 17.3 per cent in 1997-98. However, in those 10 years, the percentage of school leavers entering higher and further education almost doubled, from 32.1 per cent to 64.4 per cent. In 1997-98, only 11 per cent of school leavers went on to higher education in the Borders, but 83.4 per cent of those who opted for further education went to facilities in the Borders.

I believe that there are two lessons to be learned from those figures. To keep more of our young people, we need to develop local higher education opportunities and I recognise the work of Heriot- Watt University in developing its campus in Galashiels. We must also develop distance learning and I want to highlight the pioneering work of Borders College, which is a contract partner in the Scottish university for industry consortium led by Napier University. The college opened a pilot learning centre in Hawick in September and is planning several more learning centres, including facilities in Galashiels, Jedburgh, Selkirk and Newcastleton.

It is also important to attract our young people back to the Borders and to see others settling and making their careers in Hawick and other Borders towns. Given the level of interest and commitment by the partnership of local agencies working with the Scottish Executive and the Scottish Parliament, the new ways strategy can deliver the thriving organisations, vibrant communities and connected places that will achieve that goal.

Finally, I extend to the minister an invitation to visit Hawick in the new year to see some of the things that I have mentioned. I hope that he will be able to accept.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.545081+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C713521", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Hawick", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27187, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 362.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 362.0, "ID": 27187, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Murray Tosh (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 373.0, "ContributionID": 713521, "EditedText": "Once Peter Peacock left, there was no one in the chamber who was a teri, and no one except me who has even lived in Hawick. I am sympathetic to today's motion and I congratulate Euan Robson on securing the debate in record time—I do not know how he did it. I associate myself with much of what Euan Robson said in his state of the Borders message. I agree that the strategy for regenerating the Hawick economy must be a broader approach, taking in the entire Borders area and developing industry and employment in several centres. I welcome the restoration of regional selective assistance to areas in the Borders, as well as the decision on objective 2 status. However, I also regret it, because the fact that RSA is restored to the Borders recognises the fact that, in recent years, the area has declined in comparison with other areas of Scotland—it is a reflection of its particular local difficulties. The Government has acted promptly and properly in respect of that. I also welcome the statements made by ministers on the work that they are prepared to put in to protect the textiles industry, in so far as that is possible, against a difficult global situation. I am sure that all parties will want to associate themselves with Mr Robson's plea that everything possible should be done to ensure that Pringle remains in Hawick. Although textiles in general might struggle, facing continuing decline, there are niche areas in the industry where quality, reputation and service are stabilising and can rebuild the markets. It is important that we do not talk down the industry and that we remember that cashmere is a Scottish product with a future. Recently, the convener of Borders Council made comments to me about the particular weaknesses of the property market in much of the Borders and the need for purpose-built accommodation for potential incoming industry. There is an argument that more resources need to be made available to the local enterprise company. I hope that that will happen. Mr Robson welcomed the route action plan and its consequences in terms of the improvement of the A7, although there is still work to be done. An essential part of the new ways strategy is the emphasis on infrastructure. If we are trying to encourage industry to locate in the Borders, and in Hawick in particular, and to encourage existing industry to expand, we must consider the area's transport requirements. Decisions were made in the recent strategic roads review, which, in the long run, are not acceptable, except in the context of sustained investment in a railway network that can benefit industry. We must have an Executive commitment to adequate transport links right into the central Borders, with a guarantee that Hawick will be able to integrate into that—if not immediately by railway, at least by an express bus, which will feed into a railway in an accessible location. If we cannot get the transport right, we will not get anything right. In other areas—tourism, agriculture and textiles—the region is struggling, because of global economic circumstances and the strength of the pound. The Executive, the Government, and politicians who go around campaigning on all those issues must put all their weight behind the Borders economy, particularly in respect of the difficulties that are being experienced in Hawick, and do whatever can be done in the context in which the Scottish Executive must operate. I am happy to support Euan Robson's motion and I congratulate him on his initiative.", "EditedTextHTML": "Once Peter Peacock left, there was no one in the chamber who was a teri, and no one except me who has even lived in Hawick. I am sympathetic to today's motion and I congratulate Euan Robson on securing the debate in record time—I do not know how he did it.

I associate myself with much of what Euan Robson said in his state of the Borders message. I agree that the strategy for regenerating the Hawick economy must be a broader approach, taking in the entire Borders area and developing industry and employment in several centres.

I welcome the restoration of regional selective assistance to areas in the Borders, as well as the decision on objective 2 status. However, I also regret it, because the fact that RSA is restored to the Borders recognises the fact that, in recent years, the area has declined in comparison with other areas of Scotland—it is a reflection of its particular local difficulties. The Government has acted promptly and properly in respect of that.

I also welcome the statements made by ministers on the work that they are prepared to put in to protect the textiles industry, in so far as that is possible, against a difficult global situation. I am sure that all parties will want to associate themselves with Mr Robson's plea that everything possible should be done to ensure that Pringle remains in Hawick. Although textiles in general might struggle, facing continuing decline, there are niche areas in the industry where quality, reputation and service are stabilising and can rebuild the markets. It is important that we do not talk down the industry and that we remember that cashmere is a Scottish product with a future.

Recently, the convener of Borders Council made comments to me about the particular weaknesses of the property market in much of the Borders and the need for purpose-built accommodation for potential incoming industry. There is an argument that more resources need to be made available to the local enterprise company. I hope that that will happen.

Mr Robson welcomed the route action plan and its consequences in terms of the improvement of the A7, although there is still work to be done. An essential part of the new ways strategy is the emphasis on infrastructure. If we are trying to encourage industry to locate in the Borders, and in Hawick in particular, and to encourage existing industry to expand, we must consider the area's transport requirements. Decisions were made in the recent strategic roads review, which, in the long run, are not acceptable, except in the context of sustained investment in a railway network that can benefit industry. We must have an Executive commitment to adequate transport links right into the central Borders, with a guarantee that Hawick will be able to integrate into that—if not immediately by railway, at least by an express bus, which will feed into a railway in an accessible location. If we cannot get the transport right, we will not get anything right.

In other areas—tourism, agriculture and textiles—the region is struggling, because of global economic circumstances and the strength of the pound. The Executive, the Government, and politicians who go around campaigning on all those issues must put all their weight behind the Borders economy, particularly in respect of the difficulties that are being experienced in Hawick, and do whatever can be done in the context in which the Scottish Executive must operate.

I am happy to support Euan Robson's motion and I congratulate him on his initiative.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.545081+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2154E194P299C713526", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Hawick", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27187, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 362.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 362.0, "ID": 27187, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stephen, Nicol", "ID": 2154, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Nicol Stephen", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning (Nicol Stephen): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 386.0, "ContributionID": 713526, "EditedText": "Right at the start of this debate, Sir David Steel encouraged me to get a lectern in front of me—he obviously regarded this issue and this area as very important. In a sense, I am glad that he is no longer in the chair because, with his expertise, he would doubtless have scrutinised every one of my remarks. I thank Euan Robson for taking the initiative and securing today's debate on an issue that affects one of the key towns in the Borders. The statistics that have been quoted, indicating a fall in population of 4.4 per cent between 1991 and 1998, are worrying, especially because they suggest a flow away from the area of younger people—from the Borders in general and from Hawick in particular. Although complex, the economic reasons for that fall are clear. There have been changes in the international textile industry, the results of which— sadly—we see too often in Scotland. They have hit Hawick especially hard. It is important to press on with the diversification of the local economy, but it is also important to remember that niche sectors of the textile industry remain strong and vibrant and still have an important role to play. We should focus on that, especially at a time when there have been additional problems in agriculture and in the electronics industry—another sector that should have a significant future in the Borders. I respond to Euan Robson's invitation by saying that I would be delighted to visit Hawick and other parts of the Borders as soon as possible in the new year to look at the problems and to address them more directly. Right at the outset, I would like to knock on the head any suggestion that the Executive regards the knitwear and cashmere industry as anything other than a sector with a bright, buoyant and long-term future in Scotland. We are well aware of the great successes of cashmere—especially in north America. That has resulted from the work of the local MPs, of ministers, of the local council and of the local enterprise company—and especially from the work of the industry itself—to overcome the problems of the banana war. The knitwear and cashmere industry is a huge contributor to the success of the Borders economy: 45 per cent of its products are exported directly, and a further 25 per cent go overseas through sales to tourists. We are following up on that success through initiatives such as the \"Cashmere made in Scotland\" promotion, in which 14 out of the 21 companies involved are based in Hawick. For three of those Hawick companies, an international marketing effort has—to give two examples—yielded sales to Korea of £692,000 and raised the profile of the cashmere industry during London fashion week. A lot more could still be done, but the focus on cashmere and the growing niche sectors of the textile industry is very important. I was asked to comment on Pringle. I share the view—expressed, I think, by all members—that the buyers of Pringle should keep production in Hawick. I know the anger and distress that was caused in Aberdeen when the Crombie brand name was moved and the manufacturing disappeared. However, I understand that Dawson International is progressing well with its sale and expects to announce a successful bidder soon. Scottish Borders Enterprise stands ready to contact the new owner as soon as an announcement is made. It has already asked Dawson International to pass on its offer of support to potential buyers and to pass on information on redevelopment opportunities at Galalaw, which is included in the proposed assisted area map that the European Commission is considering. Euan Robson and other members paid tribute to the work that is being done to broaden Hawick's economic base. The new ways strategy, which was launched in March this year, sets the framework for diversifying the Borders economy. I pay tribute to the partnership that has been created in the Borders. When Henry McLeish and I met representatives of the Borders economic development forum, we had described to us a new and markedly different atmosphere of partnership and new momentum in the area. I know that the people of Hawick are already sharing some of the benefits of that through the launch of the Hawick initiative, which gives a particular priority to the Hawick area. There have been successes in Hawick, some of which have been mentioned. Three new, relatively small but innovative companies have created 40 highly skilled jobs—at Allflex Europe (UK), Lion Speciality Foods and Choices residential care. The Hawick \"Welcome\" initiative gets people into the shops of Hawick, with nine hosts employed to promote a welcoming and visitor-friendly image of the town. That is the sort of sparky, new, innovative initiative of which we want more. The return of assisted area status will help to underpin those successes, as will the objective 2 programme. Scottish Borders Enterprise's budget has been increased by more than £3 million in the past few years and steps forward have been taken in relation to infrastructure. For example, work will begin soon on the A7 traffic relief scheme, which will divert traffic away from Hawick town centre and make the town more attractive for industry, for tourists and for locals. That is a good example of the sort of partnership that we are looking for, with Scottish Borders Council and the Scottish Executive sharing costs on a 40:60 basis. As members know, the Borders rail study has reached the final draft stage. It has been circulated to key stakeholders for comment and we expect to make an announcement soon on the timing of the publication of the final report. The study includes a comprehensive investigation of options and a statement of their costs and benefits, but it would be premature to go further at this stage. Members expressed concern about the Tower Mill; I know that there is a long-standing issue about better use of that listed building. The consultants' report on options for redevelopment is now with Scottish Borders Council and Scottish Borders Enterprise for consideration, and I hope that a positive decision about the building will be taken soon. It is vital that we address the issues of learning, the knowledge economy, training and skills to avoid the drain of young people from the area. The Borders learning partnership was launched recently and will help to bring new opportunities for training and further and higher education to people in the Borders. The initiative builds on Heriot-Watt University's presence in the Borders—including its outreach centre in Hawick and at the Borders College—and the presence of Napier University and other training providers that already operate in the area. More can be done and I hope that, when I visit the area, I can look at the local further education and other training and skills initiatives as well as examine industry and commerce. I thank all members for their heartfelt comments. Euan Robson will wish us to visit the area on many more occasions, but I hope that the commitment already shown by ministers emphasises our awareness of the issues and our desire to help the area to achieve more. We need to build on the new momentum that I spoke about and to turn recent small-scale but important successes into bigger boosts for the local economy. That will enable Hawick to enjoy a growing population, a growing number of jobs and a growing confidence, which are seen elsewhere in the Borders and in many other parts of Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "Right at the start of this debate, Sir David Steel encouraged me to get a lectern in front of me—he obviously regarded this issue and this area as very important. In a sense, I am glad that he is no longer in the chair because, with his expertise, he would doubtless have scrutinised every one of my remarks.

I thank Euan Robson for taking the initiative and securing today's debate on an issue that affects one of the key towns in the Borders. The statistics that have been quoted, indicating a fall in population of 4.4 per cent between 1991 and 1998, are worrying, especially because they suggest a flow away from the area of younger people—from the Borders in general and from Hawick in particular.

Although complex, the economic reasons for that fall are clear. There have been changes in the international textile industry, the results of which— sadly—we see too often in Scotland. They have hit Hawick especially hard.

It is important to press on with the diversification of the local economy, but it is also important to remember that niche sectors of the textile industry remain strong and vibrant and still have an important role to play. We should focus on that, especially at a time when there have been additional problems in agriculture and in the electronics industry—another sector that should have a significant future in the Borders.

I respond to Euan Robson's invitation by saying that I would be delighted to visit Hawick and other parts of the Borders as soon as possible in the new year to look at the problems and to address them more directly.

Right at the outset, I would like to knock on the head any suggestion that the Executive regards the knitwear and cashmere industry as anything other than a sector with a bright, buoyant and long-term future in Scotland. We are well aware of the great successes of cashmere—especially in north America. That has resulted from the work of the local MPs, of ministers, of the local council and of the local enterprise company—and especially from the work of the industry itself—to overcome the problems of the banana war.

The knitwear and cashmere industry is a huge contributor to the success of the Borders economy: 45 per cent of its products are exported directly, and a further 25 per cent go overseas through sales to tourists. We are following up on that success through initiatives such as the \"Cashmere made in Scotland\" promotion, in which 14 out of the 21 companies involved are based in Hawick. For three of those Hawick companies, an international marketing effort has—to give two examples—yielded sales to Korea of £692,000 and raised the profile of the cashmere industry during London fashion week. A lot more could still be done, but the focus on cashmere and the growing niche sectors of the textile industry is very important.

I was asked to comment on Pringle. I share the view—expressed, I think, by all members—that the buyers of Pringle should keep production in Hawick. I know the anger and distress that was caused in Aberdeen when the Crombie brand name was moved and the manufacturing disappeared. However, I understand that Dawson International is progressing well with its sale and expects to announce a successful bidder soon. Scottish Borders Enterprise stands ready to contact the new owner as soon as an announcement is made. It has already asked Dawson International to pass on its offer of support to potential buyers and to pass on information on redevelopment opportunities at Galalaw, which is included in the proposed assisted area map that the European Commission is considering.

Euan Robson and other members paid tribute to the work that is being done to broaden Hawick's economic base. The new ways strategy, which was launched in March this year, sets the

framework for diversifying the Borders economy. I pay tribute to the partnership that has been created in the Borders. When Henry McLeish and I met representatives of the Borders economic development forum, we had described to us a new and markedly different atmosphere of partnership and new momentum in the area. I know that the people of Hawick are already sharing some of the benefits of that through the launch of the Hawick initiative, which gives a particular priority to the Hawick area.

There have been successes in Hawick, some of which have been mentioned. Three new, relatively small but innovative companies have created 40 highly skilled jobs—at Allflex Europe (UK), Lion Speciality Foods and Choices residential care. The Hawick \"Welcome\" initiative gets people into the shops of Hawick, with nine hosts employed to promote a welcoming and visitor-friendly image of the town. That is the sort of sparky, new, innovative initiative of which we want more. The return of assisted area status will help to underpin those successes, as will the objective 2 programme.

Scottish Borders Enterprise's budget has been increased by more than £3 million in the past few years and steps forward have been taken in relation to infrastructure. For example, work will begin soon on the A7 traffic relief scheme, which will divert traffic away from Hawick town centre and make the town more attractive for industry, for tourists and for locals. That is a good example of the sort of partnership that we are looking for, with Scottish Borders Council and the Scottish Executive sharing costs on a 40:60 basis.

As members know, the Borders rail study has reached the final draft stage. It has been circulated to key stakeholders for comment and we expect to make an announcement soon on the timing of the publication of the final report. The study includes a comprehensive investigation of options and a statement of their costs and benefits, but it would be premature to go further at this stage.

Members expressed concern about the Tower Mill; I know that there is a long-standing issue about better use of that listed building. The consultants' report on options for redevelopment is now with Scottish Borders Council and Scottish Borders Enterprise for consideration, and I hope that a positive decision about the building will be taken soon.

It is vital that we address the issues of learning, the knowledge economy, training and skills to avoid the drain of young people from the area. The Borders learning partnership was launched recently and will help to bring new opportunities for training and further and higher education to people in the Borders. The initiative builds on Heriot-Watt University's presence in the Borders—including its outreach centre in Hawick and at the Borders College—and the presence of Napier University and other training providers that already operate in the area. More can be done and I hope that, when I visit the area, I can look at the local further education and other training and skills initiatives as well as examine industry and commerce.

I thank all members for their heartfelt comments. Euan Robson will wish us to visit the area on many more occasions, but I hope that the commitment already shown by ministers emphasises our awareness of the issues and our desire to help the area to achieve more.

We need to build on the new momentum that I spoke about and to turn recent small-scale but important successes into bigger boosts for the local economy. That will enable Hawick to enjoy a growing population, a growing number of jobs and a growing confidence, which are seen elsewhere in the Borders and in many other parts of Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.545081+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713528", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Hawick", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27187, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 362.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 362.0, "ID": 27187, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 390.0, "ContributionID": 713528, "EditedText": "Meeting closed at 17:39.", "EditedTextHTML": "Meeting closed at 17:39.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.545081+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713344", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Time for Reflection", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27182, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27182, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dr Mona Siddiqui (Lecturer in Arabic and Islamic Studies, University of Glasgow) ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Mona Siddiqui (Lecturer in Arabic and Islamic Studies, University of Glasgow): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 6.0, "ContributionID": 713344, "EditedText": "As a Muslim, I stand here proud to be representing a faith and a community, but humbled at the honour of this task. In giving recognition to the faith, the Scottish Parliament is giving recognition to a whole ethos and to different cultures, a commitment to religious communities and a willingness to show that Scottish society is a multi- faith society and is proud to be not just tolerant but accepting, to be not just aware but interested. Our sacred books sometimes come with different stories, different social laws and even different routes to salvation, but one thing that they all share is a simple belief in God's love and mercy. As Muslims prepare for Ramadhan, the month of fasting, it should be borne in mind that Ramadhan is special not only for the fasting but for being the month in which the Qur'an was first revealed. This book contains within its infinite wisdom a simple but profound message: that of God's eternal compassion for mankind. It is related in the Qur'an that, when God created man, he told the angels, \"I will create a representative on earth.\" The angels were upset and questioned God: \"Will you place therein one who will make mischief and shed blood whilst we celebrate your praises and glorify your name?\" God replied, \"I know what you do not know.\" Adam was not only given knowledge of things; he was made to be placed at the top of creation's hierarchy. It is this very knowledge that is man's unique gift, it is this very position that brings him close to God, a proximity that man needs and God cherishes: I am as my servant thinks I am. I am with him when he makes mention of me. If he makes mention of me to himself, I make mention of him to myself. And if he makes mention of me in an assembly, I make mention of him in an assembly better than it. And if he draws near to me a hand's span, I draw near to him an arm's length, and if he draws near to me an arm's length, I draw near to him a fathom's length. And if he comes to me walking, I go to him running. And when man is rejected from the garden of Eden, removed from the miracle of God's paradise, he clings to the hope of once again pleasing his Maker, the hope of replacing wrong with right. Man treads wearily through life, stumbling his way through so much of the journey, searching and looking, anxious for solace, yearning for the truth. Through this relentless journey, there is one thing that is certain—God's everlasting mercy, His compassion for the humanity He so proudly created, His willingness to forgive error and sin: O son of Adam, so long as you call upon me and ask of me, I shall forgive you for what you have done, and I shall not mind. O son of Adam, were your sins to reach the clouds of the sky and were you then to ask forgiveness of me, I should forgive you. O son of Adam, were you to come to me with sins nearly as great as the earth, and were you then to face me, ascribing no partner to me, I would bring you forgiveness nearly as great as the earth.", "EditedTextHTML": "As a Muslim, I stand here proud to be representing a faith and a community, but humbled at the honour of this task. In giving recognition to the faith, the Scottish Parliament is giving recognition to a whole ethos and to different cultures, a commitment to religious communities and a willingness to show that Scottish society is a multi- faith society and is proud to be not just tolerant but accepting, to be not just aware but interested.

Our sacred books sometimes come with different stories, different social laws and even different routes to salvation, but one thing that they all share is a simple belief in God's love and mercy. As Muslims prepare for Ramadhan, the month of fasting, it should be borne in mind that Ramadhan is special not only for the fasting but for being the month in which the Qur'an was first revealed. This book contains within its infinite wisdom a simple but profound message: that of God's eternal compassion for mankind.

It is related in the Qur'an that, when God created man, he told the angels, \"I will create a representative on earth.\" The angels were upset and questioned God: \"Will you place therein one who will make mischief and shed blood whilst we celebrate your praises and glorify your name?\" God replied, \"I know what you do not know.\" Adam was not only given knowledge of things; he was made to be placed at the top of creation's hierarchy. It is this very knowledge that is man's unique gift, it is this very position that brings him close to God, a proximity that man needs and God cherishes:

I am as my servant thinks I am. I am with him when he makes mention of me. If he makes mention of me to himself, I make mention of him to myself. And if he makes mention of me in an assembly, I make mention of him in an assembly better than it. And if he draws near to me a hand's span, I draw near to him an arm's length, and if he draws near to me an arm's length, I draw near to him a fathom's length. And if he comes to me walking, I go to him running.

And when man is rejected from the garden of Eden, removed from the miracle of God's paradise, he clings to the hope of once again pleasing his Maker, the hope of replacing wrong with right. Man treads wearily through life, stumbling his way through so much of the journey, searching and looking, anxious for solace, yearning for the truth. Through this relentless journey, there is one thing that is certain—God's everlasting mercy, His compassion for the humanity He so proudly created, His willingness to forgive error and sin:

O son of Adam, so long as you call upon me and ask of me, I shall forgive you for what you have done, and I shall not mind. O son of Adam, were your sins to reach the clouds of the sky and were you then to ask forgiveness of me, I should forgive you. O son of Adam, were you to come to me with sins nearly as great as the earth, and were you then to face me, ascribing no partner to me, I would bring you forgiveness nearly as great as the earth.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713352", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government Finance", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27183, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27183, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 24.0, "ContributionID": 713352, "EditedText": "That was a point of argument; it certainly was not a point of order. The minister is quite within his rights to make statements to the Parliament rather than to any one of its committees.", "EditedTextHTML": "That was a point of argument; it certainly was not a point of order. The minister is quite within his rights to make statements to the Parliament rather than to any one of its committees.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C713350", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government Finance", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27183, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27183, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Finance (Mr Jack McConnell): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 20.0, "ContributionID": 713350, "EditedText": "My statement today covers local authority revenue finance for 2000-01 and decisions related to the non-domestic rates revaluation. The Scottish Executive is committed to a partnership with local authorities in Scotland. Together we aim to deliver high-quality, modern services. Local government is responsible for delivering key local services in ways that best recognise the diversity of local needs and circumstances. Stronger local government is a key element of the new democratic partnership in Scotland. This is the first year of our new Parliament and our new relationship with Scottish local government. I want our financial relationship to be stable, but to respond to the issues that affect vital local services. Our first priority is to give local authorities stability. That is why we have confirmed that we intend to uphold the figures for local government that we inherited. Local authorities have three-year figures for spending and grant; they know where they stand and can plan accordingly. Crude and universal capping has been abolished, and we will continue the system of indicative spending guidelines, at least for the next 12 months. However, those are indicative figures and we are prepared to be flexible. We will discuss the guidelines approach over the next 12 months to establish whether it is the best way forward. In my financial statement on 6 October, and in the consultation document \"Spending Plans for Scotland\", which we published last month, I set out the planned totals for local authority spending and grant—the figures for Government-supported expenditure and for aggregate external finance— for next year. We have made some technical adjustments to the figures. Most notably, the resources for the social inclusion partnership fund—some £57.6 million—are not part of local government expenditure, but are being paid as a specific grant instead. That money is still available; it is simply being accounted for differently. As a result of those and other adjustments I am now able to announce revised figures. Next year, Government-supported expenditure—the provision we will make for council spending on the delivery of services—will be £6,746 million, which is an increase of 3.7 per cent. Total aggregate external finance—the support that the Executive provides from revenue support grant and business rates— will be £5,630 million, which is an increase of 2.9 per cent. This is a good and stable settlement, which increases total resources and encourages long-term planning. Within the settlement, we give priority to the key public services: education, social work, police and fire. That focus underpins the programme for government and has been agreed with local authorities. Education, in particular, is a key service, as our children are the future of Scotland and we are committed to giving them the best possible start in life. I am particularly pleased that the grant-aided expenditure figure for education next year—which does not even include £134 million for pre-school grants—will now be £2,718 million, which is an increase of 4.3 per cent over the comparable figure for this year. The figures for spending and grant assume that, on average throughout Scotland, council tax will increase next year by 5 per cent. Individual councils will set their own tax rates around that average. In doing so, I hope that they remember that most councils will receive a substantial increase in their grant next year and will exercise some restraint. The average increase in council tax this year came down to 2.7 per cent, which is a significant achievement by councils, welcomed by taxpayers. I intend that, next year, we will continue the scheme for limiting the benefit subsidy that is paid to councils by central Government when council tax increases are above the guideline. The rules will be the same as for this year. I should also like to make a statement today about non-domestic rates—the business rates. The next revaluation for the purpose of non- domestic rates will take place from 1 April 2000. Revaluation does not mean that more money will be raised from the rates over the next five years. I emphasise that I regard stability and certainty for business as being of paramount importance. The clear priority is to maintain the level playing field that exists with regard to valuation treatment and practice north and south of the border. I want to make it absolutely clear that Scottish business, as a whole, will not pay more as a result of this revaluation. The non-domestic rates that will be raised from businesses in Scotland after the revaluation will be the same, in real terms, as before. That does not mean that every business will pay the same. Revaluation will change rateable values to reflect market conditions and the rates bills for some individual businesses will go up as well as down. I can announce today my provisional decision to set the non-domestic rate poundage for Scotland at 45.8p in the pound in 2000-01. That compares with a figure of 48.9p this year. That figure is provisional and I intend that the final figure will be confirmed by next February at the latest. I shall publish the detailed calculations underlying the announced poundage as soon as possible. There may be some concern about the different numbers in England and Scotland, but I reassure Scottish businesses that the level playing field remains. In addition, to reinforce the transparency of our calculations, I undertake each year to publish the figures that result in the poundage that is announced and to convene an annual forum of representative business organisations to explain and discuss that calculation. I have been considering whether some form of relief will be appropriate to avoid significant cost shocks for businesses—in particular, small businesses. I can announce today that there will be a Scottish transitional relief scheme. That scheme will, as far as possible, follow the principles of simplicity, phasing in of increases and unwinding, by which I mean that the relief will end before the next revaluation. Those are key issues that were raised by respondents to the consultation paper that was issued in October. I am determined to help businesses to cope with the revaluation in as fair and as affordable a way as possible, and I will consult further on the specific details in January. Furthermore, I can announce today that all businesses that have a rateable value of less than £10,000 will receive a 1p reduction in the poundage that is used to calculate their rates bills from next April. That discount will apply for one year, during which time I shall examine the case for establishing a more permanent rate relief scheme for small businesses. I look forward to continuing the useful dialogue on that issue that has been established between representative business organisations and the Local Government Committee and the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee. Over the next 12 months, Henry McLeish and his team will examine the case for small business rate relief and consider the best way forward. Finally, following consultation in September on the decapitalisation rate that is used for properties that are assessed on the contractor's principle of valuation, I can announce my decision to keep the rates at 5.5 per cent for most properties and 3.67 per cent for churches and educational, health care and Ministry of Defence properties. They are consistent with those in England and so maintain parity of approach. This decision will ensure that those ratepayers whose property is assessed using the contractor's principle will have more certainty over their rates bills, which will provide further stability. I intend to announce the detailed proposals for distributing grant and spending guidelines to individual local authorities next week. While we will review the fairness of the distribution system in partnership over the next 12 months, a number of changes have already been implemented. These have been agreed in partnership with the local authorities themselves. I am particularly pleased that next year we will distribute £6.5 million of the grant available for Scotland's councils as a special one-year deprivation payment. This will benefit nine authorities with the highest levels of poverty and deprivation in Scotland, among them West Dunbartonshire and Dundee, with Glasgow City rightly getting the largest share of this payment, amounting to nearly £3 million. This is a one-year payment because the review of the allowance made for deprivation and poverty in grant distribution will begin soon. In reaching my decisions on revenue spending, I recognise that there are serious concerns about the fairness of the present distribution. As the programme for government made clear, we will improve the fairness of the distribution over the next twelve months. Crucially, we are setting up a review of the allowance made for deprivation and poverty so that we can be sure that those councils with the greatest problems in urban and rural areas are getting the resources they need. This fulfils the commitment we gave in the programme for government. The review will move quickly and will report late next summer, ready for changes to be implemented in 2001-02. We are going to look separately at the treatment of councils with islands needs. Related to that, we need to bear in mind the cost of delivering services to the most sparsely populated areas. So there is a big programme of work that we want to carry forward in partnership, to look at the fairness of the system. But we cannot make these changes to a big and complex system overnight. However, I do want to further respond to representations on local spending and I believe that there is additional money within the settlement that I am announcing today. The extra capacity arises as a result of recent reductions in the estimate of pool interest rates which determines the amounts local authorities pay in loan and leasing charges. This means that local authorities will now pay less in loan and leasing charges next year than the provision we had previously planned. Left alone, these funds would have been distributed in proportion to the loan and leasing commitments of authorities rather than based on social needs. This money can be better used and, as a consequence, I intend to hold back £15 million when I announce the allocations for individual authorities next week. The Deputy Minister for Local Government, Frank McAveety, will discuss with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities how best this money can be used to reinforce our policy priorities, including tackling poverty, and we will announce our intentions before February, when the final decisions on the allocations for next year require to be reached. I will announce next week the distribution of spending and grant that we will provide in support of Scotland's 32 councils next year. Full details will be made available to the Scottish Parliament information centre. Those proposals will now form the basis for further consultation with COSLA in January, after which I will lay the local government finance order in February and the Parliament will have the opportunity to discuss it. This settlement is important because it confirms the figures announced at the time of the comprehensive spending review and it gives Scotland's councils stability to plan confidently for next year and the year beyond. But we are also determined to take advantage of this stability, particularly over the next 12 months, to review those aspects of the system which everyone acknowledges are creating problems. As we carry out those reviews, we will fulfil undertakings given in the programme for government. We will also work with local authorities to determine a fairer system by this time next year and to make sure that those councils which have to tackle the most serious problems of poverty and social exclusion are getting the resources that they need. Today's statement delivers stability, but it builds on our constructive dialogue and evolves our partnership locally and nationally. It is good for local communities, businesses and services. It is also good for Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "My statement today covers local authority revenue finance for 2000-01 and decisions related to the non-domestic rates revaluation.

The Scottish Executive is committed to a partnership with local authorities in Scotland. Together we aim to deliver high-quality, modern services. Local government is responsible for delivering key local services in ways that best recognise the diversity of local needs and circumstances. Stronger local government is a key element of the new democratic partnership in Scotland.

This is the first year of our new Parliament and our new relationship with Scottish local government. I want our financial relationship to be stable, but to respond to the issues that affect vital local services.

Our first priority is to give local authorities stability. That is why we have confirmed that we intend to uphold the figures for local government that we inherited. Local authorities have three-year figures for spending and grant; they know where they stand and can plan accordingly. Crude and universal capping has been abolished, and we will continue the system of indicative spending guidelines, at least for the next 12 months. However, those are indicative figures and we are prepared to be flexible. We will discuss the guidelines approach over the next 12 months to establish whether it is the best way forward.

In my financial statement on 6 October, and in the consultation document \"Spending Plans for Scotland\", which we published last month, I set out the planned totals for local authority spending and grant—the figures for Government-supported expenditure and for aggregate external finance— for next year.

We have made some technical adjustments to the figures. Most notably, the resources for the social inclusion partnership fund—some £57.6 million—are not part of local government expenditure, but are being paid as a specific grant instead. That money is still available; it is simply being accounted for differently.

As a result of those and other adjustments I am now able to announce revised figures. Next year, Government-supported expenditure—the provision we will make for council spending on the delivery of services—will be £6,746 million, which is an increase of 3.7 per cent. Total aggregate external finance—the support that the Executive provides from revenue support grant and business rates— will be £5,630 million, which is an increase of 2.9 per cent. This is a good and stable settlement, which increases total resources and encourages long-term planning.

Within the settlement, we give priority to the key public services: education, social work, police and fire. That focus underpins the programme for government and has been agreed with local authorities. Education, in particular, is a key service, as our children are the future of Scotland

and we are committed to giving them the best possible start in life. I am particularly pleased that the grant-aided expenditure figure for education next year—which does not even include £134 million for pre-school grants—will now be £2,718 million, which is an increase of 4.3 per cent over the comparable figure for this year.

The figures for spending and grant assume that, on average throughout Scotland, council tax will increase next year by 5 per cent. Individual councils will set their own tax rates around that average. In doing so, I hope that they remember that most councils will receive a substantial increase in their grant next year and will exercise some restraint. The average increase in council tax this year came down to 2.7 per cent, which is a significant achievement by councils, welcomed by taxpayers.

I intend that, next year, we will continue the scheme for limiting the benefit subsidy that is paid to councils by central Government when council tax increases are above the guideline. The rules will be the same as for this year.

I should also like to make a statement today about non-domestic rates—the business rates. The next revaluation for the purpose of non- domestic rates will take place from 1 April 2000. Revaluation does not mean that more money will be raised from the rates over the next five years. I emphasise that I regard stability and certainty for business as being of paramount importance. The clear priority is to maintain the level playing field that exists with regard to valuation treatment and practice north and south of the border.

I want to make it absolutely clear that Scottish business, as a whole, will not pay more as a result of this revaluation. The non-domestic rates that will be raised from businesses in Scotland after the revaluation will be the same, in real terms, as before. That does not mean that every business will pay the same. Revaluation will change rateable values to reflect market conditions and the rates bills for some individual businesses will go up as well as down.

I can announce today my provisional decision to set the non-domestic rate poundage for Scotland at 45.8p in the pound in 2000-01. That compares with a figure of 48.9p this year. That figure is provisional and I intend that the final figure will be confirmed by next February at the latest. I shall publish the detailed calculations underlying the announced poundage as soon as possible.

There may be some concern about the different numbers in England and Scotland, but I reassure Scottish businesses that the level playing field remains. In addition, to reinforce the transparency of our calculations, I undertake each year to publish the figures that result in the poundage that is announced and to convene an annual forum of representative business organisations to explain and discuss that calculation.

I have been considering whether some form of relief will be appropriate to avoid significant cost shocks for businesses—in particular, small businesses. I can announce today that there will be a Scottish transitional relief scheme. That scheme will, as far as possible, follow the principles of simplicity, phasing in of increases and unwinding, by which I mean that the relief will end before the next revaluation. Those are key issues that were raised by respondents to the consultation paper that was issued in October. I am determined to help businesses to cope with the revaluation in as fair and as affordable a way as possible, and I will consult further on the specific details in January.

Furthermore, I can announce today that all businesses that have a rateable value of less than £10,000 will receive a 1p reduction in the poundage that is used to calculate their rates bills from next April. That discount will apply for one year, during which time I shall examine the case for establishing a more permanent rate relief scheme for small businesses. I look forward to continuing the useful dialogue on that issue that has been established between representative business organisations and the Local Government Committee and the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee. Over the next 12 months, Henry McLeish and his team will examine the case for small business rate relief and consider the best way forward.

Finally, following consultation in September on the decapitalisation rate that is used for properties that are assessed on the contractor's principle of valuation, I can announce my decision to keep the rates at 5.5 per cent for most properties and 3.67 per cent for churches and educational, health care and Ministry of Defence properties. They are consistent with those in England and so maintain parity of approach. This decision will ensure that those ratepayers whose property is assessed using the contractor's principle will have more certainty over their rates bills, which will provide further stability.

I intend to announce the detailed proposals for distributing grant and spending guidelines to individual local authorities next week. While we will review the fairness of the distribution system in partnership over the next 12 months, a number of changes have already been implemented. These have been agreed in partnership with the local authorities themselves. I am particularly pleased that next year we will distribute £6.5 million of the grant available for Scotland's councils as a special one-year deprivation payment. This will benefit nine authorities with the highest levels of poverty

and deprivation in Scotland, among them West Dunbartonshire and Dundee, with Glasgow City rightly getting the largest share of this payment, amounting to nearly £3 million. This is a one-year payment because the review of the allowance made for deprivation and poverty in grant distribution will begin soon.

In reaching my decisions on revenue spending, I recognise that there are serious concerns about the fairness of the present distribution. As the programme for government made clear, we will improve the fairness of the distribution over the next twelve months. Crucially, we are setting up a review of the allowance made for deprivation and poverty so that we can be sure that those councils with the greatest problems in urban and rural areas are getting the resources they need. This fulfils the commitment we gave in the programme for government. The review will move quickly and will report late next summer, ready for changes to be implemented in 2001-02. We are going to look separately at the treatment of councils with islands needs. Related to that, we need to bear in mind the cost of delivering services to the most sparsely populated areas. So there is a big programme of work that we want to carry forward in partnership, to look at the fairness of the system. But we cannot make these changes to a big and complex system overnight.

However, I do want to further respond to representations on local spending and I believe that there is additional money within the settlement that I am announcing today. The extra capacity arises as a result of recent reductions in the estimate of pool interest rates which determines the amounts local authorities pay in loan and leasing charges. This means that local authorities will now pay less in loan and leasing charges next year than the provision we had previously planned.

Left alone, these funds would have been distributed in proportion to the loan and leasing commitments of authorities rather than based on social needs. This money can be better used and, as a consequence, I intend to hold back £15 million when I announce the allocations for individual authorities next week. The Deputy Minister for Local Government, Frank McAveety, will discuss with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities how best this money can be used to reinforce our policy priorities, including tackling poverty, and we will announce our intentions before February, when the final decisions on the allocations for next year require to be reached.

I will announce next week the distribution of spending and grant that we will provide in support of Scotland's 32 councils next year. Full details will be made available to the Scottish Parliament information centre.

Those proposals will now form the basis for further consultation with COSLA in January, after which I will lay the local government finance order in February and the Parliament will have the opportunity to discuss it.

This settlement is important because it confirms the figures announced at the time of the comprehensive spending review and it gives Scotland's councils stability to plan confidently for next year and the year beyond. But we are also determined to take advantage of this stability, particularly over the next 12 months, to review those aspects of the system which everyone acknowledges are creating problems. As we carry out those reviews, we will fulfil undertakings given in the programme for government. We will also work with local authorities to determine a fairer system by this time next year and to make sure that those councils which have to tackle the most serious problems of poverty and social exclusion are getting the resources that they need.

Today's statement delivers stability, but it builds on our constructive dialogue and evolves our partnership locally and nationally. It is good for local communities, businesses and services. It is also good for Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C713353", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government Finance", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27183, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27183, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Brian Monteith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 26.0, "ContributionID": 713353, "EditedText": "On a point of order.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713356", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government Finance", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27183, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27183, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 32.0, "ContributionID": 713356, "EditedText": "I am sure that I will.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sure that I will.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C713357", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government Finance", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27183, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27183, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Monteith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 34.0, "ContributionID": 713357, "EditedText": "I spy that Mr George Lyon has crossed the aisle to sit with the Liberal Democrats and not with his Labour colleagues, as we are used to seeing. To save members from any confusion, is there any particular place where we should sit?", "EditedTextHTML": "I spy that Mr George Lyon has crossed the aisle to sit with the Liberal Democrats and not with his Labour colleagues, as we are used to seeing. To save members from any confusion, is there any particular place where we

should sit?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2152E53P75C713368", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government Finance", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27183, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27183, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnston, Nick", "ID": 2152, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nick Johnston", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nick Johnston (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 56.0, "ContributionID": 713368, "EditedText": "We were generous?", "EditedTextHTML": "

We were generous?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1973E119P326C713371", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government Finance", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27183, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27183, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gorrie, Donald", "ID": 1973, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Donald Gorrie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Donald Gorrie (Central Scotland) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 62.0, "ContributionID": 713371, "EditedText": "I welcome many parts of Mr McConnell's announcement—I will leave it at that. Laughter. We are allowed only to ask questions, not to give eulogies. Mr McConnell aims, correctly, at stability, but does he agree that he does so on a downward path, that almost all councils will have to make cuts and that many non-priority services will get worse? Will he seek more money from the Chancellor of the Exchequer? Will he try to find more money from his budget for local government? Will Mr McConnell consider relaxing the rules on guidelines, which have seriously harmed several councils most unjustly? It would be much better if he was more relaxed about those guidelines. Will Mr McConnell take account of the document produced by the Society of Local Authority Chief Executives and Senior Managers, in which the society complains about the unco-ordinated flow of initiatives and consultation exercises emerging from the Scottish Executive? Will he set up a bumf-busting committee to stop that ridiculous waste of councils' time and energy? Will Mr McConnell fund, at least to some degree, pay increases? That is a serious issue, as other members have said. Finally, if Mr McConnell has available the valuable amount of £15 million, will he consider discussing with his colleagues the possibility of channelling it through councils to the voluntary sector, to help that sector to provide social inclusion services? The voluntary sector, which is funded by councils, has suffered severely and Mr McConnell has an excellent opportunity to help.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome many parts of Mr McConnell's announcement—I will leave it at that. [Laughter.] We are allowed only to ask questions, not to give eulogies.

Mr McConnell aims, correctly, at stability, but does he agree that he does so on a downward path, that almost all councils will have to make cuts and that many non-priority services will get worse? Will he seek more money from the Chancellor of the Exchequer? Will he try to find more money from his budget for local government?

Will Mr McConnell consider relaxing the rules on guidelines, which have seriously harmed several councils most unjustly? It would be much better if he was more relaxed about those guidelines.

Will Mr McConnell take account of the document produced by the Society of Local Authority Chief Executives and Senior Managers, in which the society complains about the unco-ordinated flow of initiatives and consultation exercises emerging from the Scottish Executive? Will he set up a bumf-busting committee to stop that ridiculous waste of councils' time and energy?

Will Mr McConnell fund, at least to some degree, pay increases? That is a serious issue, as other members have said.

Finally, if Mr McConnell has available the valuable amount of £15 million, will he consider discussing with his colleagues the possibility of channelling it through councils to the voluntary sector, to help that sector to provide social inclusion services? The voluntary sector, which is funded by councils, has suffered severely and Mr McConnell has an excellent opportunity to help.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1970E66P288C713379", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government Finance", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27183, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27183, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNulty, Des", "ID": 1970, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Clydebank and Milngavie" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Des McNulty", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Des McNulty (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 78.0, "ContributionID": 713379, "EditedText": "Bearing in mind the attempts by vested interests to block the implementation of the Arbuthnott recommendations, which would bring health allocations more in line with health needs, will the minister ensure that the discussions about local government allocations that he mentioned will be concluded in time for early implementation of those recommendations? That would assist poorer areas such as West Dunbartonshire, Glasgow and Dundee.", "EditedTextHTML": "Bearing in mind the attempts by vested interests to block the implementation of the Arbuthnott recommendations, which would bring health allocations more in line with health needs, will the minister ensure that the discussions about local government allocations that he mentioned will be concluded in time for early implementation of those recommendations? That would assist poorer areas such as West Dunbartonshire, Glasgow and Dundee.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5138316+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1950E155P451C713381", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government Finance", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27183, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27183, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Campbell, Colin", "ID": 1950, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Colin Campbell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Colin Campbell (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 82.0, "ContributionID": 713381, "EditedText": "COSLA estimates that the last rounds of teachers' pay negotiations cost local authorities £600 million. Does the minister agree that central Government did not properly fund those increases and that local councils had to make cuts in other services to meet those payments? This could be a yes/no answer if Jack is really lucky.", "EditedTextHTML": "COSLA estimates that the last rounds of teachers' pay negotiations cost local authorities £600 million. Does the minister agree that central Government did not properly fund those increases and that local councils had to make cuts in other services to meet those payments? This could be a yes/no answer if Jack is really lucky.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5138316+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C713382", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government Finance", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27183, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27183, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 84.0, "ContributionID": 713382, "EditedText": "We believe in local democracy; the councils are responsible for negotiating those settlements. We are prepared, as was the case with this year's teachers' settlement, to allocate additional money to help finance such settlements when it is right and appropriate and meets our, and the councils', priorities. We did that this year for education and we will do it again whenever it is necessary.", "EditedTextHTML": "We believe in local democracy; the councils are responsible for negotiating those settlements. We are prepared, as was the case with this year's teachers' settlement, to allocate additional money to help finance such settlements when it is right and appropriate and meets our, and the councils', priorities. We did that this year for education and we will do it again whenever it is necessary.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1931E120P189C713383", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government Finance", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27183, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27183, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Muldoon, Bristow", "ID": 1931, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Livingston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bristow Muldoon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bristow Muldoon (Livingston) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 86.0, "ContributionID": 713383, "EditedText": "I welcome the review of grant distribution that the minister referred to in his statement. The review— rightly—recognises deprivation. Will the review also address the distribution of grants to authorities that are experiencing substantial population growth?", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the review of grant distribution that the minister referred to in his statement. The review— rightly—recognises deprivation. Will the review also address the distribution of grants to authorities that are experiencing substantial population growth?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C713384", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government Finance", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27183, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27183, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 88.0, "ContributionID": 713384, "EditedText": "Population growth is a major issue. It is an issue in Mr Muldoon's constituency and, for example, in Aberdeenshire, where I met the council last week to discuss its circumstances. A number of councils across Scotland want that issue to be taken on board—perhaps in different ways—in the distribution formula. I intend that the discussions over the coming year will take account of councils' concerns about guidelines and the distribution formula. However, it is important that we try to retain the support of all councils for the distribution formula system and do not try to skew it against councils that feel that they too have needs.", "EditedTextHTML": "Population growth is a major issue. It is an issue in Mr Muldoon's constituency and, for example, in Aberdeenshire, where I met the council last week to discuss its circumstances. A number of councils across Scotland want that issue to be taken on board—perhaps in different ways—in the distribution formula.

I intend that the discussions over the coming year will take account of councils' concerns about guidelines and the distribution formula. However, it is important that we try to retain the support of all councils for the distribution formula system and do not try to skew it against councils that feel that they too have needs.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C713389", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government Finance", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27183, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27183, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Keith Raffan (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 98.0, "ContributionID": 713389, "EditedText": "Does the minister agree with the Labour and Liberal Democrat joint motion that was passed by Fife Council and subsequently endorsed by COSLA? If Fife and all other local authorities must deliver—in Mr McConnell's own words—\"high-quality modern services\" we cannot expect indefinitely that they will fund pay awards without assistance from central Government. Will the minister have a quiet—but, I hope, effective—word with the Chancellor of the Exchequer on that point?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the minister agree with the Labour and Liberal Democrat joint motion that was passed by Fife Council and subsequently endorsed by COSLA? If Fife and all other local authorities must deliver—in Mr McConnell's own words—\"high-quality modern services\" we cannot expect indefinitely that they will fund pay awards without assistance from central Government. Will the minister have a quiet—but, I hope, effective—word with the Chancellor of the Exchequer on that point?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C713390", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government Finance", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27183, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27183, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 100.0, "ContributionID": 713390, "EditedText": "Mr Raffan would be surprised if I agreed with the motion that he mentions— obviously I do not. It is important to mention finance in relation to improvements to local services. Improving local services is not about just spending more money, or about the existing budgets. Those are important, but they are only part of the picture. If we want to deliver high-quality modern services, local and central Government must also work together to find efficiencies. We must look for better, newer ways of doing things. Those ways might be cheaper, but they will not necessarily always be worse—that is important. Finding those new ways is a task that the Executive has set itself, and on which it will work next year. It is a task that will always—I hope—override examination in isolation of individual figures.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Raffan would be surprised if I agreed with the motion that he mentions— obviously I do not.

It is important to mention finance in relation to improvements to local services. Improving local services is not about just spending more money, or about the existing budgets. Those are important, but they are only part of the picture. If we want to deliver high-quality modern services, local and central Government must also work together to find efficiencies. We must look for better, newer ways of doing things. Those ways might be cheaper, but they will not necessarily always be worse—that is important. Finding those new ways is a task that the Executive has set itself, and on which it will work next year. It is a task that will always—I hope—override examination in isolation of individual figures.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C713392", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government Finance", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27183, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27183, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 104.0, "ContributionID": 713392, "EditedText": "Certainly. If you will allow me, Presiding Officer, I will also address Mr Ewing's remark, which I think was on the same subject, although I found it hard to follow. The small business relief scheme is almost identical to the existing scheme, but is a slight improvement on it. In line with its other decisions, the Executive has chosen to go for stability for the next 12 months. That is partly because every business in Scotland has a different proposal for a small business relief scheme or for Government assistance to small businesses. No two proposals are the same. It would, therefore, be wrong for the Parliament to choose one of those proposals and to run with it for next year. It is entirely appropriate that the two committees I mentioned—and gave a proper place to in my speech—examine the matter over the next 12 months. My colleague Mr McLeish and his team will also examine the matter. We will get proper recommendations on the best method of helping small businesses. That might be rates relief, but it might be something else. In the next 12 months, we must examine in an open and transparent way how we can afford that, rather than rushing into a decision this afternoon. I hope that that decision is welcomed by small businesses—it certainly should be.", "EditedTextHTML": "Certainly. If you will allow me, Presiding Officer, I will also address Mr Ewing's remark, which I think was on the same subject, although I found it hard to follow.

The small business relief scheme is almost identical to the existing scheme, but is a slight improvement on it. In line with its other decisions, the Executive has chosen to go for stability for the next 12 months. That is partly because every business in Scotland has a different proposal for a small business relief scheme or for Government assistance to small businesses. No two proposals are the same. It would, therefore, be wrong for the Parliament to choose one of those proposals and to run with it for next year.

It is entirely appropriate that the two committees I mentioned—and gave a proper place to in my speech—examine the matter over the next 12 months. My colleague Mr McLeish and his team will also examine the matter. We will get proper recommendations on the best method of helping small businesses. That might be rates relief, but it might be something else. In the next 12 months, we must examine in an open and transparent way how we can afford that, rather than rushing into a decision this afternoon.

I hope that that decision is welcomed by small businesses—it certainly should be.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2140E187P335C713420", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Rumbles, Mike", "ID": 2140, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Rumbles", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Rumbles: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 165.0, "ContributionID": 713420, "EditedText": "No, the member will have to wait.Arguing that the Scottish Executive has only a limited role in negotiations undermines Scotland's position. Surely the whole Parliament should be giving its negotiators a ringing endorsement.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, the member will have to wait.

Arguing that the Scottish Executive has only a limited role in negotiations undermines Scotland's position. Surely the whole Parliament should be giving its negotiators a ringing endorsement.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2140E187P335C713418", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Rumbles, Mike", "ID": 2140, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Rumbles", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Rumbles: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 161.0, "ContributionID": 713418, "EditedText": "It is quite clear that we are part of the United Kingdom and part of a team. When the United Kingdom team goes to negotiations, that is the voice that is heard. The argument that Scotland, as the principal fishing nation of the UK, should always take the lead in the negotiations is not logically sustainable. On the one hand, the SNP is prepared to exploit membership of the Union; on the other hand, it wants to abolish it. That is not consistent. On that basis, the SNP amendment is unacceptable.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is quite clear that we are part of the United Kingdom and part of a team. When the United Kingdom team goes to negotiations, that is the voice that is heard. The argument that Scotland, as the principal fishing nation of the UK, should always take the lead in the negotiations is not logically sustainable. On the one hand, the SNP is prepared to exploit membership of the Union; on the other hand, it wants to abolish it. That is not consistent. On that basis, the SNP amendment is unacceptable.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2140E187P335C713422", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Rumbles, Mike", "ID": 2140, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Rumbles", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Rumbles: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 169.0, "ContributionID": 713422, "EditedText": "In a moment.Members will have received a copy of the publication by the Scottish Fishermen's Federation, \"Scottish Fishing Industry: Current Concerns\", which it produced to give members preparation for today's debate. It makes several excellent points, some of which I want to draw to the members' attention. On the back of the document, the Scottish Fishermen's Federation outlines the principal issues on which it will carry out research, with a view to mounting campaigns in the coming year. It identifies issues such as working for a sustainable fishing plan, zonal management, and quota trading and capacity regulations. It has produced an excellent document. The commitment of the Scottish Executive, as published in the partnership agreement between the Labour party and the Liberal Democrats, is \"to encourage the development of sustainable and locally managed fisheries to support local fishing communities.\" There is a certain resonance between those two documents.", "EditedTextHTML": "In a moment.

Members will have received a copy of the publication by the Scottish Fishermen's Federation, \"Scottish Fishing Industry: Current Concerns\", which it produced to give members preparation for today's debate. It makes several excellent points, some of which I want to draw to the members' attention.

On the back of the document, the Scottish Fishermen's Federation outlines the principal issues on which it will carry out research, with a view to mounting campaigns in the coming year. It identifies issues such as working for a sustainable fishing plan, zonal management, and quota trading and capacity regulations. It has produced an excellent document. The commitment of the Scottish Executive, as published in the partnership agreement between the Labour party and the Liberal Democrats, is

\"to encourage the development of sustainable and locally managed fisheries to support local fishing communities.\"

There is a certain resonance between those two documents.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2140E187P335C713424", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Rumbles, Mike", "ID": 2140, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Rumbles", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Rumbles: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 173.0, "ContributionID": 713424, "EditedText": "Jamie McGrigor has illustrated the point that I made previously about the Conservatives. Everything that he mentioned— was it positive? No. It was entirely negative.", "EditedTextHTML": "Jamie McGrigor has illustrated the point that I made previously about the Conservatives. Everything that he mentioned— was it positive? No. It was entirely negative.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C713425", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 175.0, "ContributionID": 713425, "EditedText": "Will Mr Rumbles answer the question?", "EditedTextHTML": "

Will Mr Rumbles answer the question?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2140E187P335C713426", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Rumbles, Mike", "ID": 2140, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Rumbles", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Rumbles: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 177.0, "ContributionID": 713426, "EditedText": "Other issues are exercising the minds of our fishermen, not least of which—", "EditedTextHTML": "Other issues are exercising the minds of our fishermen, not least of which—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2066E64P88C713427", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McGrigor, Jamie", "ID": 2066, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie McGrigor", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McGrigor: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 179.0, "ContributionID": 713427, "EditedText": "Is the Executive trying to do something positive?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is the Executive trying to do something positive?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2140E187P335C713428", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Rumbles, Mike", "ID": 2140, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Rumbles", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Rumbles: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 181.0, "ContributionID": 713428, "EditedText": "I remind Mr McGrigor that I am not the minister who is in charge of that department. Other issues are exercising the minds of our fishermen, not least of which is the Scottish adjacent waters fishing boundary, an issue that was raised by the minister. That important issue is also highlighted in the federation's document, and I believe that I should emphasise our views on it. As members may know, the Rural Affairs Committee has taken evidence from the Scottish Fishermen's Federation and the minister, and the committee's report is to be launched tomorrow. I will not confirm leaked press reports that were published in The Scotsman concerning the view that was taken by the committee. I can confirm, prior to tomorrow's launch, that the Liberal Democrats are fully supportive of the efforts of Archy Kirkwood, the local MP for Roxburgh and Berwickshire, who is trying to change that new and unwelcome boundary. I return to the main issues at hand.", "EditedTextHTML": "I remind Mr McGrigor that I am not the minister who is in charge of that department.

Other issues are exercising the minds of our fishermen, not least of which is the Scottish adjacent waters fishing boundary, an issue that was raised by the minister. That important issue is also highlighted in the federation's document, and I believe that I should emphasise our views on it.

As members may know, the Rural Affairs Committee has taken evidence from the Scottish Fishermen's Federation and the minister, and the committee's report is to be launched tomorrow. I will not confirm leaked press reports that were published in The Scotsman concerning the view that was taken by the committee. I can confirm, prior to tomorrow's launch, that the Liberal Democrats are fully supportive of the efforts of Archy Kirkwood, the local MP for Roxburgh and Berwickshire, who is trying to change that new and unwelcome boundary.

I return to the main issues at hand.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C713429", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Patricia Ferguson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 183.0, "ContributionID": 713429, "EditedText": "Very briefly, please, Mr Rumbles.", "EditedTextHTML": "Very briefly, please, Mr Rumbles.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1985E207P501C713433", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hamilton, Mr Duncan", "ID": 1985, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Duncan Hamilton (Highlands and Islands) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 193.0, "ContributionID": 713433, "EditedText": "I want to focus on the aspects of this debate that affect the west coast, an area that is often overlooked. I want to consider the impact of the financial climate, particularly the situation with the scallop fishermen, on the communities on the west coast. As was mentioned earlier, I had a meeting with the minister on Monday. If he came out of that meeting with an impression that it had been positive, it is clear that we are on two different planets. The representatives of the industry were disgusted with the Executive's lack of vision. There needs to be a lot more creative and strategic thinking. It is fine for the Executive to put together a committee to pull together all the interests, but why has it taken so long to do so and what will the Executive bring to it? It is the job of the Executive to provide strategic vision, but that is not what it is doing. I want to talk about two areas: scallops and monkfish. I see that there is to be a 40 per cent reduction in the west coast quota for monkfish. What is the minister going to do about that? How hard is he going to fight? What representations is he going to make?", "EditedTextHTML": "I want to focus on the aspects of this debate that affect the west coast, an area that is often overlooked. I want to consider the impact of the financial climate, particularly the situation with the scallop fishermen, on the communities on the west coast.

As was mentioned earlier, I had a meeting with the minister on Monday. If he came out of that meeting with an impression that it had been positive, it is clear that we are on two different planets. The representatives of the industry were disgusted with the Executive's lack of vision. There needs to be a lot more creative and strategic thinking. It is fine for the Executive to put together a committee to pull together all the interests, but why has it taken so long to do so and what will the Executive bring to it? It is the job of the Executive to provide strategic vision, but that is not what it is doing.

I want to talk about two areas: scallops and monkfish. I see that there is to be a 40 per cent reduction in the west coast quota for monkfish. What is the minister going to do about that? How hard is he going to fight? What representations is he going to make?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1985E207P501C713437", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hamilton, Mr Duncan", "ID": 1985, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Hamilton: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 201.0, "ContributionID": 713437, "EditedText": "I will not give way as I have only 30 seconds left. Much more effort needs to be put into research. Susan Deacon told the Health and Community Care Committee that the new Food Standards Agency would examine the problem as soon as possible. Has that happened? What money is behind the examination? What more will the Executive do to find the root cause of a problem that is crippling the west coast of Scotland?", "EditedTextHTML": "I will not give way as I have only 30 seconds left.

Much more effort needs to be put into research. Susan Deacon told the Health and Community Care Committee that the new Food Standards Agency would examine the problem as soon as possible. Has that happened? What money is behind the examination? What more will the Executive do to find the root cause of a problem that is crippling the west coast of Scotland?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1878E208P502C713442", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Dr Winnie", "ID": 1878, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Winnie Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 214.0, "ContributionID": 713442, "EditedText": "I am sorry—I want to finish this point and then I will give way to Alex Fergusson. I meet diplomats who are horrified by what has been done to us. Could the real reason behind the change be the propping up of English tonnage? Could it be that there is mineral wealth under the sea bed? Could it be to show Scotland up: \"You've got your devolved Parliament, but don't think that Westminster doesn't rule, even on devolved matters.\"", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry—I want to finish this point and then I will give way to Alex Fergusson.

I meet diplomats who are horrified by what has been done to us. Could the real reason behind the change be the propping up of English tonnage? Could it be that there is mineral wealth under the sea bed? Could it be to show Scotland up: \"You've got your devolved Parliament, but don't think that Westminster doesn't rule, even on devolved matters.\"

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C713440", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 209.0, "ContributionID": 713440, "EditedText": "As there has been a change to the list of SNP speakers, I call Dr Winifred Ewing.", "EditedTextHTML": "As there has been a change to the list of SNP speakers, I call Dr Winifred Ewing.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2117E79P104C713445", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macdonald, Lewis", "ID": 2117, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lewis Macdonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Lewis Macdonald (Aberdeen Central) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 221.0, "ContributionID": 713445, "EditedText": "Like other members, I welcome the opportunity for Parliament to focus on the current issues facing the fishing industry in advance of the December Fisheries Council. A couple of practices that have been inherited from Westminster should continue: one is this debate on such an important Scottish industry. It has been pointed out that thousands of jobs, often in vulnerable communities, depend on the catching sector, but there are thousands more in fish processing, the fish trade and fishing industry supply in my constituency and other urban areas. The problems facing the fishing industry concern the whole of Scotland. Devolution should make a difference in this part of the economy. The minister reminded us of the setting up of the Scottish inshore fisheries advisory group, which is an important step in itself, and of other steps that have been taken to promote coastal management of fisheries around the Scottish coasts. I welcome today's announcement of a Scottish sea fish industry safety scheme and the fact that that might be extended to smaller inshore fishing vessels as well as vessels covered by the former Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food scheme. What will not change in the fisheries industry—at least not this side of 2002—is the need to get the best possible deal for the Scottish industry in annual negotiations with the EU and Norway. I commend the minister's efforts in those two areas. The minister spoke of technical measures that might help the problem of the haddock quota. A marginal reduction in the permissible size of haddock landed and in the levels of discards of young fish might help to achieve an effective balance between conservation and sustainable levels of catch. My concern is not with what ministers should do if there is resistance to taking advantage of the Hague preferences, but with how to take full advantage of them. I ask ministers for an assurance that, when they go to Brussels to negotiate at the Fisheries Council, they will make maximum use of the available protection in cases where total allowable catch has been driven down for scientific reasons. Other matters dealt with by Europe that are less directly related to the Fisheries Council are still of concern to ministers and the industry. The urban waste water directive has been mentioned. I welcome the steps that have been taken in that respect by the processing industry and by Aberdeen City Council. I hope that similar steps can be taken elsewhere. Ministers should also consider control regulations on the landing of fish and make a case with their colleagues for promoting more rather than less flexibility in regulating the landing and transportation of fish. I realise that environment ministers deal with such matters, but the industry will be interested in getting a result in this area. I support the motion and wish the minister well in a few days' time. I believe that devolution of the Scottish fisheries sector will work to the industry's benefit and will provide a basis for the negotiations that will have to take place in 2002 for the new fisheries policy. We should seek neither to displace UK ministers in leading for the UK industry in European negotiations nor to supervise English fisheries from Peterhead or Aberdeen, attractive though that idea might be. Instead, Parliament should unite to support our industry.", "EditedTextHTML": "Like other members, I welcome the opportunity for Parliament to focus on the current issues facing the fishing industry in advance of the December Fisheries Council. A couple of practices that have been inherited from Westminster should continue: one is this debate on such an important Scottish industry.

It has been pointed out that thousands of jobs, often in vulnerable communities, depend on the catching sector, but there are thousands more in fish processing, the fish trade and fishing industry supply in my constituency and other urban areas. The problems facing the fishing industry concern the whole of Scotland.

Devolution should make a difference in this part of the economy. The minister reminded us of the setting up of the Scottish inshore fisheries advisory group, which is an important step in itself, and of other steps that have been taken to promote coastal management of fisheries around the Scottish coasts. I welcome today's announcement of a Scottish sea fish industry safety scheme and the fact that that might be extended to smaller inshore fishing vessels as well as vessels covered by the former Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food scheme.

What will not change in the fisheries industry—at least not this side of 2002—is the need to get the best possible deal for the Scottish industry in annual negotiations with the EU and Norway. I commend the minister's efforts in those two areas.

The minister spoke of technical measures that might help the problem of the haddock quota. A marginal reduction in the permissible size of haddock landed and in the levels of discards of young fish might help to achieve an effective

balance between conservation and sustainable levels of catch.

My concern is not with what ministers should do if there is resistance to taking advantage of the Hague preferences, but with how to take full advantage of them. I ask ministers for an assurance that, when they go to Brussels to negotiate at the Fisheries Council, they will make maximum use of the available protection in cases where total allowable catch has been driven down for scientific reasons.

Other matters dealt with by Europe that are less directly related to the Fisheries Council are still of concern to ministers and the industry. The urban waste water directive has been mentioned. I welcome the steps that have been taken in that respect by the processing industry and by Aberdeen City Council. I hope that similar steps can be taken elsewhere.

Ministers should also consider control regulations on the landing of fish and make a case with their colleagues for promoting more rather than less flexibility in regulating the landing and transportation of fish. I realise that environment ministers deal with such matters, but the industry will be interested in getting a result in this area.

I support the motion and wish the minister well in a few days' time. I believe that devolution of the Scottish fisheries sector will work to the industry's benefit and will provide a basis for the negotiations that will have to take place in 2002 for the new fisheries policy. We should seek neither to displace UK ministers in leading for the UK industry in European negotiations nor to supervise English fisheries from Peterhead or Aberdeen, attractive though that idea might be. Instead, Parliament should unite to support our industry.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C713446", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr David Davidson (North-East Scotland) (Con) rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 223.0, "ContributionID": 713446, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2085E206P337C713448", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Munro, John Farquhar", "ID": 2085, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ross, Skye and Inverness West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Farquhar Munro", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr John Munro (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 228.0, "ContributionID": 713448, "EditedText": "I am delighted to be able to take part in this debate on fisheries: it is an opportunity that may not be afforded to us for much longer, given that in the first few months of this Parliament's existence we lost 6,000 square miles of our fishing territory. I wonder what is next. I have listened to the arguments between the various fishing interests over many years. Much of what we are debating today concerns conservation. I have heard the arguments between the trawlermen and the creel men. There is constant conflict. Attempts have been made to rationalise and harmonise, with conservation in mind. Way up in some of the inland lochs on the west coast of Scotland, closure orders have worked well while still in place, but the lochs have been plundered on the day the orders were lifted and the situation has been made worse than ever. Conservation did not work there. We hear much about quotas. They have been the answer to everybody's prayer, provided they have been implemented and organised properly. However, everyone knows that the aim of the quota system has been defeated because mesh sizes and the fish that are landed are small and fish are returned to the sea bed dead. There is not much conservation there. Vessels were decommissioned to help conservation. That was fine, except that smaller vessels were decommissioned—usually those below 10 m long and of less than 150 bhp. The result was that six smaller vessels were taken out of a fleet and replaced with one much larger vessel with a catching capacity far in excess of the six vessels that were decommissioned and with far greater horsepower. That system did not work. New vessels are fishing inshore almost to the high water mark. I was told that they are fitted with wheels to enable them to do that. Where will this stop? We must ensure that we enforce a larger mesh size. Much has been said about that, but we have come to the stage where we must enforce it, and preferably enforce a square mesh so that smaller fish are able to escape and enhance the stocks that we are trying to retain. I wish to promote the concept of coastal sole management, whereby communities are given a marine zone to manage and control out to the 25 mile limit, which gives them the opportunity to sustain their communities and their fish stocks. A priority must be to find a constructive way forward, involving all the political parties, that will satisfy the aims and objectives of conservationists, fishermen and communities.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am delighted to be able to take part in this debate on fisheries: it is an opportunity that may not be afforded to us for much longer, given that in the first few months of this Parliament's existence we lost 6,000 square miles of our fishing territory. I wonder what is next.

I have listened to the arguments between the various fishing interests over many years. Much of what we are debating today concerns conservation. I have heard the arguments between the trawlermen and the creel men. There is constant conflict. Attempts have been made to rationalise and harmonise, with conservation in mind. Way up in some of the inland lochs on the west coast of Scotland, closure orders have worked well while still in place, but the lochs have been plundered on the day the orders were lifted and the situation has been made worse than ever. Conservation did not work there.

We hear much about quotas. They have been the answer to everybody's prayer, provided they have been implemented and organised properly. However, everyone knows that the aim of the quota system has been defeated because mesh sizes and the fish that are landed are small and fish are returned to the sea bed dead. There is not much conservation there.

Vessels were decommissioned to help conservation. That was fine, except that smaller vessels were decommissioned—usually those below 10 m long and of less than 150 bhp. The result was that six smaller vessels were taken out of a fleet and replaced with one much larger vessel with a catching capacity far in excess of the six vessels that were decommissioned and with far greater horsepower. That system did not work.

New vessels are fishing inshore almost to the high water mark. I was told that they are fitted with wheels to enable them to do that. Where will this stop? We must ensure that we enforce a larger mesh size. Much has been said about that, but we have come to the stage where we must enforce it, and preferably enforce a square mesh so that smaller fish are able to escape and enhance the stocks that we are trying to retain.

I wish to promote the concept of coastal sole management, whereby communities are given a marine zone to manage and control out to the 25 mile limit, which gives them the opportunity to sustain their communities and their fish stocks. A priority must be to find a constructive way forward, involving all the political parties, that will satisfy the aims and objectives of conservationists, fishermen and communities.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2100E64P254C713450", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Home Robertson, John", "ID": 2100, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Lothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "John Home Robertson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Home Robertson rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 233.0, "ContributionID": 713450, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2117E79P104C713456", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macdonald, Lewis", "ID": 2117, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lewis Macdonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Lewis Macdonald: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 247.0, "ContributionID": 713456, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2117E79P104C713458", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macdonald, Lewis", "ID": 2117, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lewis Macdonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Lewis Macdonald: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 251.0, "ContributionID": 713458, "EditedText": "I thank the member for giving way. Does he accept that the initiative of local government and the industry, and the support and flexibility shown by the Scottish Executive in dealing with the waste water treatment directive, has allowed Aberdeen to make proposals that will meet those problems?", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the member for giving way. Does he accept that the initiative of

local government and the industry, and the support and flexibility shown by the Scottish Executive in dealing with the waste water treatment directive, has allowed Aberdeen to make proposals that will meet those problems?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C713461", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Davidson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 257.0, "ContributionID": 713461, "EditedText": "Let me finish this point.People have talked about over-regulation at sea. There are many aspects to that, such as radio controls. What about the control regulations that Lewis Macdonald touched on? If the Executive is really trying to help—it must agree to this regulation—it should monitor the fish as it comes off the boat, not involve merchants and everybody else in a paper-chase of pieces of paper attached to every box of fish they buy.", "EditedTextHTML": "Let me finish this point.

People have talked about over-regulation at sea. There are many aspects to that, such as radio controls. What about the control regulations that Lewis Macdonald touched on? If the Executive is really trying to help—it must agree to this regulation—it should monitor the fish as it comes off the boat, not involve merchants and everybody else in a paper-chase of pieces of paper attached to every box of fish they buy.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C713462", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 259.0, "ContributionID": 713462, "EditedText": "I agree with David Davidson on the waste water issue. However, on the Tory amendment, why did the Tories not move MAFF to the north-east of Scotland in their 18 years of office, instead of selling out the industry? Would it not be a good idea to move the Scottish department to the north-east of Scotland before we move the English department?", "EditedTextHTML": "I agree with David Davidson on the waste water issue. However, on the Tory amendment, why did the Tories not move MAFF to the north-east of Scotland in their 18 years of office, instead of selling out the industry? Would it not be a good idea to move the Scottish department to the north-east of Scotland before we move the English department?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2223E203P342C713464", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scott, Tavish", "ID": 2223, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Shetland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tavish Scott", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tavish Scott: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 263.0, "ContributionID": 713464, "EditedText": "Look back.", "EditedTextHTML": "Look back.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C713465", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Davidson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 265.0, "ContributionID": 713465, "EditedText": "Why should we look back? If he is going to look back, Mr Scott should suggest to his colleagues on the Labour benches that it is inadmissible for them to come here today, two and a half years into a Labour Government, to talk about these issues. When did fishing receive help from them? Does the Labour Government recognise the industry? By the way, Mr Rumbles, this is up to date. In this afternoon's press release from the minister's department, there is talk of safety. I do not see anything in it about quota management, regional management, common fisheries policy reform, capacity penalties or the problems of the west coast. There is nothing in it about horsepower, or about why the minister rejected the idea of processors being able to man the Scottish inshore fishery advisory group. There is certainly nothing about inactivity over the past few months. I admit that one or two of the minister's comments were valuable and I look forward to seeing them come out.", "EditedTextHTML": "Why should we look back? If he is going to look back, Mr Scott should suggest to his colleagues on the Labour benches that it is inadmissible for them to come here today, two and a half years into a Labour Government, to talk about these issues. When did fishing receive help from them? Does the Labour Government recognise the industry?

By the way, Mr Rumbles, this is up to date. In this afternoon's press release from the minister's department, there is talk of safety. I do not see anything in it about quota management, regional management, common fisheries policy reform, capacity penalties or the problems of the west coast. There is nothing in it about horsepower, or about why the minister rejected the idea of processors being able to man the Scottish inshore fishery advisory group. There is certainly nothing about inactivity over the past few months. I admit that one or two of the minister's comments were valuable and I look forward to seeing them come out.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C713466", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 267.0, "ContributionID": 713466, "EditedText": "In conclusion, please.", "EditedTextHTML": "In conclusion, please.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1888E265P358C713470", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morgan, Alasdair", "ID": 1888, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Galloway and Upper Nithsdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morgan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alasdair Morgan (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 276.0, "ContributionID": 713470, "EditedText": "The debate is welcome; some good points have been made in all parts of the chamber, of which I will refer to a few. Fishing is indeed a very important industry, and David Davidson was quite right to refer to the downstream aspects of the industry, which create so many jobs. The minister started off, bizarrely, with a reference to one of his ancestors and the vote on the Treaty of Union. We must wonder whether the minister's ancestor would have approved of his successor's stance. The minister also urged us to ignore the boundary issue and then proceeded to spend the next couple of minutes talking about it. I was glad that, in her speech, Winnie Ewing managed to link that issue back to the Treaty of Union. Why is the minister so sensitive and defensive about the boundary issue? I know from experience that Scottish National party members always bring out the worst in the minister, but he should be big enough to recognise that the redrawing of the boundaries has been a colossal mistake on the part of the Administration, or at least of his colleagues at Westminster.", "EditedTextHTML": "The debate is welcome; some good points have been made in all parts of the chamber, of which I will refer to a few.

Fishing is indeed a very important industry, and David Davidson was quite right to refer to the downstream aspects of the industry, which create so many jobs.

The minister started off, bizarrely, with a reference to one of his ancestors and the vote on the Treaty of Union. We must wonder whether the minister's ancestor would have approved of his successor's stance.

The minister also urged us to ignore the boundary issue and then proceeded to spend the next couple of minutes talking about it. I was glad that, in her speech, Winnie Ewing managed to link that issue back to the Treaty of Union.

Why is the minister so sensitive and defensive about the boundary issue? I know from experience that Scottish National party members always bring out the worst in the minister, but he should be big enough to recognise that the redrawing of the boundaries has been a colossal mistake on the part of the Administration, or at least of his colleagues at Westminster.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1888E265P358C713474", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morgan, Alasdair", "ID": 1888, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Galloway and Upper Nithsdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morgan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alasdair Morgan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 284.0, "ContributionID": 713474, "EditedText": "I get the point. I know that the Tories are allegedly convinced about devolution, although when I hear their English colleagues at Westminster, I am not so sure of that. However, when fishing is already devolved, I do not know what is served by moving the fishing section of the English and Welsh ministry up to Aberdeen. What we should be doing is moving the responsibility, not the building. Mike Rumbles spoke about who should take the lead position in the EU negotiation, but his vision of a UK team, including the Liberal Democrats, does not square with what I have seen at Westminster. The key word when dealing with fishing in Europe is not votes, but priority. Norway is outside the EU, and Denmark and Spain are inside the EU, but all have secured good deals because they see the fishing industry as a priority. There is evidence of that in the way in which the Spaniards accelerated their access to western waters. The UK, by contrast, has traded away fishing rights. During a four-year period in the 1990s, for example, the Scottish department was in favour of a decommissioning scheme but MAFF was against, which meant that we did not get one. It is not votes that are most important, but the priority that we give to the fishing industry. Mike Rumbles felt that he had to make the ritual condemnation of the SNP, but if he had read our amendment, he would have noticed that it is about transferring the UK responsibility. The amendment is not about breaking up the UK or losing its precious 10 votes, but about recognising the pre-eminent position of the Scottish fishing industry. I wonder why Mike Rumbles cannot support that. John Home Robertson spoke about being at thefront of the UK delegation—I think that those were his words. The question is, will he be the puppet at the front of that delegation, with MAFF behind him pulling the strings? That is a judgment that we and the industry will have to make in due course. Let us hope, for the sake of this very important industry, that the minister will be speaking and winning for Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "I get the point. I know that the Tories are allegedly convinced about devolution, although when I hear their English colleagues at Westminster, I am not so sure of that. However, when fishing is already devolved, I do not know what is served by moving the fishing section of the English and Welsh ministry up to Aberdeen. What we should be doing is moving the responsibility, not the building.

Mike Rumbles spoke about who should take the lead position in the EU negotiation, but his vision of a UK team, including the Liberal Democrats, does not square with what I have seen at Westminster. The key word when dealing with fishing in Europe is not votes, but priority. Norway is outside the EU, and Denmark and Spain are inside the EU, but all have secured good deals because they see the fishing industry as a priority. There is evidence of that in the way in which the Spaniards accelerated their access to western waters. The UK, by contrast, has traded away fishing rights. During a four-year period in the 1990s, for example, the Scottish department was in favour of a decommissioning scheme but MAFF was against, which meant that we did not get one. It is not votes that are most important, but the priority that we give to the fishing industry.

Mike Rumbles felt that he had to make the ritual condemnation of the SNP, but if he had read our amendment, he would have noticed that it is about transferring the UK responsibility. The amendment is not about breaking up the UK or losing its precious 10 votes, but about recognising the pre-eminent position of the Scottish fishing industry. I wonder why Mike Rumbles cannot support that.

John Home Robertson spoke about being at the

front of the UK delegation—I think that those were his words. The question is, will he be the puppet at the front of that delegation, with MAFF behind him pulling the strings? That is a judgment that we and the industry will have to make in due course. Let us hope, for the sake of this very important industry, that the minister will be speaking and winning for Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C713476", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 289.0, "ContributionID": 713476, "EditedText": "If it becomes this Parliament's view that the transfer of 6,000 square miles of coastal waters is not satisfactory and that the original boundary should be restored, will that become the policy of the Executive and will the Executive seek to renegotiate the boundary with the Westminster Parliament on that basis?", "EditedTextHTML": "If it becomes this Parliament's view that the transfer of 6,000 square miles of coastal waters is not satisfactory and that the original boundary should be restored, will that become the policy of the Executive and will the Executive seek to renegotiate the boundary with the Westminster Parliament on that basis?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C713477", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ross Finnie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 291.0, "ContributionID": 713477, "EditedText": "If the Parliament came to such a view, the Executive would have to pay some attention to that.", "EditedTextHTML": "If the Parliament came to such a view, the Executive would have to pay some attention to that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C713478", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 293.0, "ContributionID": 713478, "EditedText": "Pay some attention?", "EditedTextHTML": "Pay some attention?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C713480", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 297.0, "ContributionID": 713480, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C713483", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 303.0, "ContributionID": 713483, "EditedText": "Thank you, Mr McNulty. The minister should do that.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you, Mr McNulty. The minister should do that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C713484", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ross Finnie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 305.0, "ContributionID": 713484, "EditedText": "That is more a point of position than a point of order, but I shall take Mr McNulty's suggestion on board. In his opening remarks, Richard Lochhead mentioned the alleged dispute between UK ministers and Scottish ministers at the last Fisheries Council meeting. That is simply not the case. The UK minister abstained on one small issue relating to FIFG administration. No other points were disputed and John Home Robertson was quite right to say that he regarded that settlement as entirely satisfactory. The point about the Scottish minister being the lead minister has also been raised. I can understand why the Scottish National party would prefer—independence or not—that the Scottish minister should always lead.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is more a point of position than a point of order, but I shall take Mr McNulty's suggestion on board.

In his opening remarks, Richard Lochhead mentioned the alleged dispute between UK ministers and Scottish ministers at the last Fisheries Council meeting. That is simply not the case. The UK minister abstained on one small issue relating to FIFG administration. No other points were disputed and John Home Robertson was quite right to say that he regarded that settlement as entirely satisfactory.

The point about the Scottish minister being the lead minister has also been raised. I can understand why the Scottish National party would prefer—independence or not—that the Scottish minister should always lead.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2066E64P88C713489", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McGrigor, Jamie", "ID": 2066, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie McGrigor", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McGrigor: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 315.0, "ContributionID": 713489, "EditedText": "Does the minister agree that, as the test result takes 14 days to produce, there is a period during which people will be at great risk? However, if the end product were tested, we would know that the thing that was going into the food chain was safe.", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the minister agree that, as the test result takes 14 days to produce, there is a period during which people will be at great risk? However, if the end product were tested, we would know that the thing that was going into the food chain was safe.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C713493", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 323.0, "ContributionID": 713493, "EditedText": "The point that follows on from that also follows on from what Mr Home Robertson said at the Rural Affairs Committee on 2 November, when he acknowledged the likelihood—one statutory instrument already exists—that there will be a series of regulations that will affect the Berwickshire bank on only one side of the boundary line. Does it not make sense for the entire Berwickshire bank to be covered by one set of regulations, across every area of the industry? Would it not be sensible for that boundary to be redrawn, so that the whole Berwickshire bank comes under one set of conservation gear regulations and other regulations? Mr Hamish Morrison made that point at the committee.", "EditedTextHTML": "The point that follows on from that also follows on from what Mr Home Robertson said at the Rural Affairs Committee on 2 November, when he acknowledged the likelihood—one statutory instrument already exists—that there will be a series of regulations that will affect the Berwickshire bank on only one side of the boundary line. Does it not make sense for the entire Berwickshire bank to be covered by one set of regulations, across every area of the industry? Would it not be sensible for that boundary to be redrawn, so that the whole Berwickshire bank comes under one set of conservation gear regulations and other regulations?

Mr Hamish Morrison made that point at the committee.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.5294574+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713498", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27186, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 332.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 332.0, "ID": 27186, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 334.0, "ContributionID": 713498, "EditedText": "We come to decision time. I must put four questions as a result of today's business. The first question is, that amendment S1M-358.1, in the name of Mr Alex Salmond, seeking to amend motion S1M-358, in the name of Mr John Home Robertson, on sea fisheries, be agreed to. Are we agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "We come to decision time. I must put four questions as a result of today's business.

The first question is, that amendment S1M-358.1, in the name of Mr Alex Salmond, seeking to amend motion S1M-358, in the name of Mr John Home Robertson, on sea fisheries, be agreed to. Are we agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.545081+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713500", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27186, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 332.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 332.0, "ID": 27186, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 338.0, "ContributionID": 713500, "EditedText": "There will be a division.", "EditedTextHTML": "There will be a division.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.545081+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713502", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27186, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 332.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 332.0, "ID": 27186, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 341.0, "ContributionID": 713502, "EditedText": "The result of the division is: For 32, Against 81, Abstentions 0.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result of the division is: For 32, Against 81, Abstentions 0.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.545081+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713504", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27186, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 332.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 332.0, "ID": 27186, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 344.0, "ContributionID": 713504, "EditedText": "The next question is, that amendment S1M-358.2, in the name of Mr Jamie McGrigor, which seeks to amend motion S1M-358, in the name of Mr John Home Robertson, be agreed to. Are we agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "The next question is, that amendment S1M-358.2, in the name of Mr Jamie McGrigor, which seeks to amend motion S1M-358, in the name of Mr John Home Robertson, be agreed to. Are we agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.545081+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713505", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27186, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 332.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 332.0, "ID": 27186, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 346.0, "ContributionID": 713505, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.545081+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713508", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27186, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 332.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 332.0, "ID": 27186, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 351.0, "ContributionID": 713508, "EditedText": "The result of the division is: For 18, Against 96, Abstentions 0.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result of the division is: For 18, Against 96, Abstentions 0.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.545081+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713510", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27186, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 332.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 332.0, "ID": 27186, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 354.0, "ContributionID": 713510, "EditedText": "The third question is, that motion S1M-358, in the name of Mr John Home Robertson, on sea fisheries, be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "The third question is, that motion S1M-358, in the name of Mr John Home Robertson, on sea fisheries, be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.545081+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713512", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27186, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 332.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 332.0, "ID": 27186, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 357.0, "ContributionID": 713512, "EditedText": "That the Parliament calls upon the Scottish Executive to seek the best possible outcome for Scottish fishermen, consistent with sustainable fishing, from the forthcoming negotiations leading up to the December Fisheries Council.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament calls upon the Scottish Executive to seek the best possible outcome for Scottish fishermen, consistent with sustainable fishing, from the forthcoming negotiations leading up to the December Fisheries Council.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.545081+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713514", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27186, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 332.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 332.0, "ID": 27186, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 360.0, "ContributionID": 713514, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.545081+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713516", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Hawick", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27187, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 362.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 362.0, "ID": 27187, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 363.0, "ContributionID": 713516, "EditedText": "We now move to members' business, which is motion S1M-319, in the name of Mr Euan Robson, on the economy of Hawick. The debate will be concluded after 30 minutes, without any question being put. Members who wish to speak should press their request buttons. We have more than one lectern. It would be helpful if members who are going to speak have them ready—that applies to ministers as well.", "EditedTextHTML": "We now move to members' business, which is motion S1M-319, in the name of Mr Euan Robson, on the economy of Hawick. The debate will be concluded after 30 minutes, without any question being put. Members who wish to speak should press their request buttons.

We have more than one lectern. It would be helpful if members who are going to speak have them ready—that applies to ministers as well.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.545081+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C713527", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Hawick", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27187, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 362.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 362.0, "ID": 27187, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 388.0, "ContributionID": 713527, "EditedText": "Thank you, minister. I thank Mr Robson and the other members present for this debate.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you, minister. I thank Mr Robson and the other members present for this debate.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.545081+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C713351", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government Finance", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27183, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27183, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fergus Ewing (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 22.0, "ContributionID": 713351, "EditedText": "On a point of order. The Local Government Committee has spent many meetings considering in detail the substance of today's statement, in particular business rates and the need to provide a special package of relief for small business. The Local Government Committee convener sent a letter to the minister asking whether such a package could be introduced. Instead of responding to the Local Government Committee, and showing respect for the committee system, the minister has announced a paltry package today and small business will continue to be hammered throughout Scotland. Is that in order?", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. The Local Government Committee has spent many meetings considering in detail the substance of today's statement, in particular business rates and the need to provide a special package of relief for small business. The Local Government Committee convener sent a letter to the minister asking whether such a package could be introduced. Instead of responding to the Local Government Committee, and showing respect for the committee system, the minister has announced a paltry package today and small business will continue to be hammered throughout Scotland. Is that in order?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:00:18.3299743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2180E179P471C713408", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lochhead, Richard", "ID": 2180, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Lochhead", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Richard Lochhead (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 139.0, "ContributionID": 713408, "EditedText": "I welcome this debate, which is our first real opportunity to address the many concerns of the Scottish fishing industry. Unlike electronics and other modern industries, fishing is a traditional industry that has been around as long as Scotland itself. It is woven into the fabric of many of Scotland's coastal communities and supports important jobs in rural areas. Fishing communities have high expectations of this Parliament, having been let down time and time again by successive London Administrations. Too often, their interests were used as a bargaining chip in the European Union so that Westminster Governments could achieve their wider European aims. That must end with devolution and the establishment of this Parliament. The minister must prove that things have changed. His success in achieving his objectives for the Scottish fishing industry will depend on two factors. First, beneficial change must be sought by member states in the negotiations—in this case, the member state is the UK. Secondly, pursuing that change must be a top priority for the Government, which has not been the case in the past. If we are to believe the minister, there is absolutely no need to worry, because he and the UK fisheries minister are at one on every issue under the sun and there is never any disagreement. However, we must ask what went wrong in November at the Fisheries Council. The UK minister voted against the package that was agreed, but Scotland's fisheries minister, John Home Robertson, issued a press release on his return to Scotland that said: \"There are a range of measures in the final outcome which will have a resonance with the Scottish fishing industry.\" The UK minister voted against a package that our minister thought was good for Scotland. Who could blame Hamish Morrison, the eloquent chief executive of the Scottish Fishermen's Federation, who is in the gallery today, for saying that the more things change, the more they stay the same? When the Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs took office, the first thing that he did was to defend Westminster's theft of Scotland's waters. He has a bad habit of accepting the negative things that come out of MAFF in London and rejecting some of the more positive things. I have mentioned the proposals to cut capacity in the pelagic sector, which is one of the negative proposals that the minister appears to embrace, despite its ramifications for the Scottish fishing industry. As a result of that cut, those in the Dutch fishing industry will be rubbing their hands in glee, as they will have the chance to buy up Scottish vessels that are forced to leave the industry because of those unreasonable capacity reductions. While there is healthy stock and healthy quota, I urge the minister to dispense with those demands, which will damage the Scottish industry. When a positive scheme from MAFF—the safety improvement vessel grants—was stopped last May, we did not hear a whimper of protest from the Scottish fisheries minister. We still do not know whether that is a London scandal or a Scottish scandal.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome this debate, which is our first real opportunity to address the many concerns of the Scottish fishing industry. Unlike electronics and other modern industries, fishing is a traditional industry that has been around as long as Scotland itself. It is woven into the fabric of many of Scotland's coastal communities and supports important jobs in rural areas.

Fishing communities have high expectations of this Parliament, having been let down time and time again by successive London Administrations. Too often, their interests were used as a bargaining chip in the European Union so that Westminster Governments could achieve their wider European aims. That must end with devolution and the establishment of this Parliament.

The minister must prove that things have changed. His success in achieving his objectives for the Scottish fishing industry will depend on two factors. First, beneficial change must be sought by member states in the negotiations—in this case, the member state is the UK. Secondly, pursuing that change must be a top priority for the Government, which has not been the case in the past.

If we are to believe the minister, there is absolutely no need to worry, because he and the UK fisheries minister are at one on every issue under the sun and there is never any disagreement. However, we must ask what went wrong in November at the Fisheries Council. The UK minister voted against the package that was agreed, but Scotland's fisheries minister, John Home Robertson, issued a press release on his return to Scotland that said:

\"There are a range of measures in the final outcome which will have a resonance with the Scottish fishing industry.\"

The UK minister voted against a package that our minister thought was good for Scotland. Who could blame Hamish Morrison, the eloquent chief executive of the Scottish Fishermen's Federation, who is in the gallery today, for saying that the more things change, the more they stay the same?

When the Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs took office, the first thing that he did was to defend Westminster's theft of Scotland's waters. He has a bad habit of accepting the negative things that come out of MAFF in London and rejecting some of the more positive things. I have mentioned the proposals to cut capacity in the pelagic sector, which is one of the negative proposals that the minister appears to embrace, despite its ramifications for the Scottish fishing industry. As a result of that cut, those in the Dutch fishing industry will be rubbing their hands in glee, as they will have the chance to buy up Scottish vessels that are forced to leave the industry because of those unreasonable capacity reductions. While there is healthy stock and healthy quota, I urge the minister to dispense with those demands, which will damage the Scottish industry.

When a positive scheme from MAFF—the safety improvement vessel grants—was stopped last May, we did not hear a whimper of protest from the Scottish fisheries minister. We still do not know whether that is a London scandal or a Scottish scandal.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:20.9827029+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2180E179P471C713487", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sea Fisheries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27184, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27184, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lochhead, Richard", "ID": 2180, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Lochhead", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Richard Lochhead: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 311.0, "ContributionID": 713487, "EditedText": "Does the minister accept that it is not only the SNP's opinion that the Scottish fisheries minister should have lead responsibility for the whole of the UK in European negotiations, but the view of the industry?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the minister accept that it is not only the SNP's opinion that the Scottish fisheries minister should have lead

responsibility for the whole of the UK in European negotiations, but the view of the industry?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:20.9827029+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1756E184P464C713524", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Hawick", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27187, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 362.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 362.0, "ID": 27187, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Grahame, Christine", "ID": 1756, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Christine Grahame", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Christine Grahame: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 380.0, "ContributionID": 713524, "EditedText": "I beg your pardon, we can build up cattle processing and pig processing as well. Communications and transport are obviously the key to everything. The A7—as far as I know—has only two crawler lanes: one is at Middleton Moor, near Midlothian, and the other is near Langholm, in Dumfriesshire. Two sections have been under review—Auchinrivock at Langholm, and Glenmarie at Galashiels—to increase safety in those areas, but nothing has happened. That would be my B- plan. My A-plan is also the A-plan of the all-party Campaign for Borders Rail—the key is rail, which would give heart and spirit to the Borders people. As Ian Jenkins has said before, a connecting-up of the Borders is essential for freight, for passengers, for entrepreneurs who come with their families to live in the Borders, for young people who return and for tourists. It will also put the Borders on the map. Imagine if the Scottish Parliament could reopen the railway line through the Borders—perhaps in stages, although I am not prepared to concede that point just now. The reopening of that line would be international news and would create a direct route to Europe, providing a vital connection for the Borders. That is the key to solving the problems in Hawick and the Borders.", "EditedTextHTML": "I beg your pardon, we can build up cattle processing and pig processing as well.

Communications and transport are obviously the key to everything. The A7—as far as I know—has only two crawler lanes: one is at Middleton Moor, near Midlothian, and the other is near Langholm, in Dumfriesshire. Two sections have been under review—Auchinrivock at Langholm, and Glenmarie at Galashiels—to increase safety in those areas, but nothing has happened. That would be my B- plan. My A-plan is also the A-plan of the all-party Campaign for Borders Rail—the key is rail, which would give heart and spirit to the Borders people. As Ian Jenkins has said before, a connecting-up of the Borders is essential for freight, for passengers, for entrepreneurs who come with their families to live in the Borders, for young people who return and for tourists. It will also put the Borders on the map.

Imagine if the Scottish Parliament could reopen the railway line through the Borders—perhaps in stages, although I am not prepared to concede that point just now. The reopening of that line would be international news and would create a direct route to Europe, providing a vital connection for the Borders. That is the key to solving the problems in Hawick and the Borders.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:00:34.116328+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2110E214P424C713359", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Dec 1999", "ID": 4197 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government Finance", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27183, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27183, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gibson, Kenneth", "ID": 2110, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenneth Gibson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Kenneth Gibson (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 38.0, "ContributionID": 713359, "EditedText": "I thank the minister for his statement. I would have liked to respond to it in detail, but the entire question-and-answer session has been allocated half an hour, which I consider to be an absolute disgrace. It shows the Executive's contempt for local government. I notice that the minister made no commitment to restore funding to the level that new Labour inherited in 1996-97. I notice also that the minister was especially pleased with the £6.5 million deprivation payment that was made last week, half of which went to Glasgow. Excuse me for not dancing in the streets, minister, but that works out at 9p a week for every Glaswegian, which is hardly a cure for poverty in that city. May I ask the minister a straightforward question? On St Andrew's day, he wrote to Norman Murray, the president of COSLA, who is— of course—a Labour councillor. I quote: \"The approach of scaling down the expenditure increase to promote convergence with GAE will continue.\" Given that the difference between the GAE figure and what local authorities spend is currently £375 million, will the minister tell us the time over which that scaling down will take place, and what the impact on jobs, services and council tax will be? Does he accept that the new burdens and the promotion of convergence mean, in effect, a double whammy of a £700 million increase in council tax—or its equivalent in cuts in services and jobs—over an indeterminate period? That is hardly a recipe for stability.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the minister for his statement. I would have liked to respond to it in detail, but the entire question-and-answer session has been allocated half an hour, which I consider to be an absolute disgrace. It shows the Executive's contempt for local government.

I notice that the minister made no commitment to restore funding to the level that new Labour inherited in 1996-97. I notice also that the minister was especially pleased with the £6.5 million deprivation payment that was made last week, half of which went to Glasgow. Excuse me for not dancing in the streets, minister, but that works out at 9p a week for every Glaswegian, which is hardly a cure for poverty in that city.

May I ask the minister a straightforward question? On St Andrew's day, he wrote to Norman Murray, the president of COSLA, who is— of course—a Labour councillor. I quote:

\"The approach of scaling down the expenditure increase to promote convergence with GAE will continue.\"

Given that the difference between the GAE figure and what local authorities spend is currently £375 million, will the minister tell us the time over which that scaling down will take place, and what the impact on jobs, services and council tax will be? Does he accept that the new burdens and the promotion of convergence mean, in effect, a double whammy of a £700 million increase in council tax—or its equivalent in cuts in services and jobs—over an indeterminate period? That is hardly a recipe for stability.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:05:19.2124205+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2180E179P471C712996", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lochhead, Richard", "ID": 2180, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Lochhead", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Richard Lochhead (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 266.0, "ContributionID": 712996, "EditedText": "I have a number of years to wait before I reach retiral age. I do not know whether I am the youngest contributor to the debate as I do not know what age Karen Gillon is.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have a number of years to wait before I reach retiral age. I do not know whether I am the youngest contributor to the debate as I do not

know what age Karen Gillon is.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:01:04.7890265+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2180E179P471C713024", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lochhead, Richard", "ID": 2180, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Lochhead", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Richard Lochhead rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 325.0, "ContributionID": 713024, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:01:04.7890265+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2180E179P471C713031", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lochhead, Richard", "ID": 2180, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Lochhead", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Richard Lochhead: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 339.0, "ContributionID": 713031, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:01:04.7890265+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C713316", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Freight and Passenger Terminal (Fife)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27180, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 881.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 881.0, "ID": 27180, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment (Sarah Boyack): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 919.0, "ContributionID": 713316, "EditedText": "I congratulate Bruce Crawford and thank him for lodging the motion, which has opened up the issue of east coast access to ferry services from Scotland. The idea has been around for a long time and it is appropriate that it should be the subject of one of our earlier discussions in the Scottish Parliament. Tonight's debate has shown that while there has been much discussion before, the real challenge is to promote action. I want to cover three main areas. First, I will cover the policy framework, because Bruce asked a large number of questions about how the Executive views the proposal. I will then talk about what the Executive can do. Finally, I will pick up on Tricia Marwick's comments about the challenges of the project and where we go next. We have a strong and robust policy framework. Many of the issues raised today relate to policies for which the Executive already has a policy framework in place, which can be used as a background to discussing the issue. I will not go through the whole list of statistics that members have raised, but I will pick out three. In 1997, freight going by heavy goods vehicle outwith the UK from Scotland totalled 629,000 tonnes. In 1996, more than half the tonnage going by sea went via the Dover strait. More than 940,000 tonnes of freight for outwith the UK was lifted by rail in Scotland. We know that we have a significant export market. I take on board fully Tricia's comment that freight movement by sea is a competitive market. Policies on east coast access must therefore be developed in that light. It is not the nationality of our ports that is the problem, but the physical lack of access in Scotland and the distances that need to be travelled. Those are the issues on which we must focus. There are four key policy areas for which the Scottish Executive has a positive policy framework. First, it is absolutely vital to take freight off roads. That underpins our commitment to a sustainable distribution policy for freight. We are committed to removing 15 million lorry miles a year from the roads by March 2002. That is not an easy or straightforward target, but it is one of the key aims that inform the debate on Rosyth. Secondly, an integrated approach to transport is at the core of our transport policy. That framework has been set out in our decisions and in our funding mechanisms. Thirdly, we need locally driven transport strategies. Keith Raffan made a point about the need to tackle congestion. I want to take the opportunity of tonight's debate to pay tribute to the work of Fife Council in promoting practical alternatives to road congestion. The council is doing some solid work and I encourage it to continue with that. There are opportunities in Fife to pull together the local council, the local enterprise company, port providers, Railtrack and other bodies that could be involved to promote a powerful local transport strategy. The last of the four policy areas is ports policy, and to get that policy right, it is important to work in the wider UK context. We want to enable multimodal ports, with transfer from rail to ferry and from road to ferry. We want to ensure that we get it right, and that the shadow strategic rail authority, Railtrack, the rail freight operators, port owners and the shipping companies will be involved. It is a challenging agenda but, I believe, a positive one. I believe that the Executive has set the rightframework.", "EditedTextHTML": "I congratulate Bruce Crawford and thank him for lodging the motion, which has opened up the issue of east coast access to ferry services from Scotland.

The idea has been around for a long time and it is appropriate that it should be the subject of one of our earlier discussions in the Scottish Parliament. Tonight's debate has shown that while there has been much discussion before, the real challenge is to promote action.

I want to cover three main areas. First, I will cover the policy framework, because Bruce asked a large number of questions about how the Executive views the proposal. I will then talk about what the Executive can do. Finally, I will pick up on Tricia Marwick's comments about the challenges of the project and where we go next.

We have a strong and robust policy framework. Many of the issues raised today relate to policies for which the Executive already has a policy framework in place, which can be used as a background to discussing the issue.

I will not go through the whole list of statistics that members have raised, but I will pick out three. In 1997, freight going by heavy goods vehicle outwith the UK from Scotland totalled 629,000 tonnes. In 1996, more than half the tonnage going by sea went via the Dover strait. More than 940,000 tonnes of freight for outwith the UK was lifted by rail in Scotland. We know that we have a significant export market. I take on board fully Tricia's comment that freight movement by sea is a competitive market. Policies on east coast access must therefore be developed in that light.

It is not the nationality of our ports that is the problem, but the physical lack of access in Scotland and the distances that need to be travelled. Those are the issues on which we must focus.

There are four key policy areas for which the Scottish Executive has a positive policy framework. First, it is absolutely vital to take freight off roads. That underpins our commitment to a sustainable distribution policy for freight. We are committed to removing 15 million lorry miles a year from the roads by March 2002. That is not an easy or straightforward target, but it is one of the key aims that inform the debate on Rosyth.

Secondly, an integrated approach to transport is at the core of our transport policy. That framework has been set out in our decisions and in our funding mechanisms.

Thirdly, we need locally driven transport strategies. Keith Raffan made a point about the need to tackle congestion. I want to take the opportunity of tonight's debate to pay tribute to the work of Fife Council in promoting practical alternatives to road congestion. The council is doing some solid work and I encourage it to continue with that. There are opportunities in Fife to pull together the local council, the local enterprise company, port providers, Railtrack and other bodies that could be involved to promote a powerful local transport strategy.

The last of the four policy areas is ports policy, and to get that policy right, it is important to work in the wider UK context. We want to enable multimodal ports, with transfer from rail to ferry and from road to ferry. We want to ensure that we get it right, and that the shadow strategic rail authority, Railtrack, the rail freight operators, port owners and the shipping companies will be involved. It is a challenging agenda but, I believe, a positive one.

I believe that the Executive has set the right

framework.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:08.9207112+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C713318", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Freight and Passenger Terminal (Fife)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27180, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 881.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 881.0, "ID": 27180, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 923.0, "ContributionID": 713318, "EditedText": "I will come on to Mr Tosh in a minute. This is not just a matter of the right framework; it is about what we are doing now. We have a freight facilities grant that is available for developing rail facilities at ports. We are looking for applications so that we can identify appropriate funding. Existing rail links, including Rosyth, could be eligible for the grant—we need the applications. On rail services to Rosyth, it is welcome news that Railtrack will submit a freight facilities grant application for the Stirling-Alloa-Dunfermline freight link. We will consider that application seriously, and it should be approached in the context of overall freight facilities. There is also the prospect—this is where the UK Government is important—to extend the freight facilities grant scheme to short sea and coastal shipping, which is already a firm UK Government commitment. I welcome that commitment, which is extremely relevant for Rosyth and for Scotland. On Scott Barrie's comments on the Kincardine bridge, as he will know—and I will remind him—we have given the go-ahead on the strategic roads review announcement. It is also our policy to encourage other agencies that are involved, and I highlight the joining-up of their approaches. Their work was mentioned by Tricia Marwick and Bruce Crawford, and it is important that we maximise effectiveness. Scottish Enterprise is playing a key practical role. There is also funding from RAPID, an EC-backed scheme which could, if qualification is achieved, assist in associated property development around the port area. Environmental funding could assist with abnormal ground conditions or environmental improvements.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will come on to Mr Tosh in a minute.

This is not just a matter of the right framework; it is about what we are doing now. We have a freight facilities grant that is available for developing rail facilities at ports. We are looking for applications so that we can identify appropriate funding. Existing rail links, including Rosyth, could be eligible for the grant—we need the applications. On rail services to Rosyth, it is welcome news that Railtrack will submit a freight facilities grant application for the Stirling-Alloa-Dunfermline freight link. We will consider that application seriously, and it should be approached in the context of overall freight facilities.

There is also the prospect—this is where the UK Government is important—to extend the freight facilities grant scheme to short sea and coastal shipping, which is already a firm UK Government commitment. I welcome that commitment, which is extremely relevant for Rosyth and for Scotland.

On Scott Barrie's comments on the Kincardine bridge, as he will know—and I will remind him—we have given the go-ahead on the strategic roads review announcement.

It is also our policy to encourage other agencies that are involved, and I highlight the joining-up of their approaches. Their work was mentioned by Tricia Marwick and Bruce Crawford, and it is important that we maximise effectiveness. Scottish Enterprise is playing a key practical role. There is also funding from RAPID, an EC-backed scheme which could, if qualification is achieved, assist in associated property development around the port area. Environmental funding could assist with abnormal ground conditions or environmental improvements.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:08.9207112+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C713320", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Freight and Passenger Terminal (Fife)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27180, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 881.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 881.0, "ID": 27180, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 927.0, "ContributionID": 713320, "EditedText": "I am happy to take an intervention.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am happy to take an intervention.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:08.9207112+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C713322", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Freight and Passenger Terminal (Fife)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27180, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 881.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 881.0, "ID": 27180, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 931.0, "ContributionID": 713322, "EditedText": "Whenever anyone says\"respectfully suggest\", I treat it with extreme caution. However, I accept the point that Murray Tosh makes. We will debate the overall strategic transport framework when we come to debate the integrated transport bill. I will be happy to engage in such a discussion then, and the subject comes up in many of our debates; transport is vital to Scotland's prosperity. The other way in which Scottish Enterprise can support the development of transport links is through marketing assistance. There has been a lot of work on that from Scottish Enterprise already. I am sure that members will be aware of the report that it produced last year, which has pushed the debate ahead and has added a great deal of depth to what members have raised in the debate. Scottish Enterprise has also played an important role with regard to European funding sources.", "EditedTextHTML": "Whenever anyone says

\"respectfully suggest\", I treat it with extreme caution. However, I accept the point that Murray Tosh makes. We will debate the overall strategic transport framework when we come to debate the integrated transport bill. I will be happy to engage in such a discussion then, and the subject comes up in many of our debates; transport is vital to Scotland's prosperity.

The other way in which Scottish Enterprise can support the development of transport links is through marketing assistance. There has been a lot of work on that from Scottish Enterprise already. I am sure that members will be aware of the report that it produced last year, which has pushed the debate ahead and has added a great deal of depth to what members have raised in the debate.

Scottish Enterprise has also played an important role with regard to European funding sources.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:08.9207112+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C713324", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Freight and Passenger Terminal (Fife)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27180, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 881.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 881.0, "ID": 27180, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 935.0, "ContributionID": 713324, "EditedText": "Not just now, thank you.The pilot actions for combined transport programme—the PACT programme—supports innovative combined transport services. I understand that a PACT application might be considered, and could build on the earlier support from the scheme for initial feasibility work. The application is being made in a competitive situation, but I believe that further work could be done. On future challenges, I am convinced that the work already being done on transport links will take the debate further. The Scottish Executive will fully support such an agenda. The framework set by us allows and positively encourages developments such as that at Rosyth. One of the challenges is to highlight for shipping operators the port facilities available and how they can be promoted. We need to study the market carefully and to examine how ferry and shipping operators might be attracted to the routes that have been mentioned. There are some hard questions—Tricia Marwick raised the matter earlier—and I believe that we need to give them further consideration. We need to ensure that the project is co-ordinated. I pay tribute to the work of Fife Council, Scottish Enterprise, Fife Enterprise, the port authorities, rail freight interests and the many others involved in the work. I welcome the establishment of a project steering group as a means of taking the work forward practically and positively. The Executive is clear that a ferry service from the east coast of Scotland would be welcome.", "EditedTextHTML": "Not just now, thank you.

The pilot actions for combined transport programme—the PACT programme—supports innovative combined transport services. I understand that a PACT application might be considered, and could build on the earlier support from the scheme for initial feasibility work. The application is being made in a competitive situation, but I believe that further work could be done.

On future challenges, I am convinced that the work already being done on transport links will take the debate further. The Scottish Executive will fully support such an agenda.

The framework set by us allows and positively encourages developments such as that at Rosyth. One of the challenges is to highlight for shipping operators the port facilities available and how they can be promoted. We need to study the market carefully and to examine how ferry and shipping operators might be attracted to the routes that have been mentioned. There are some hard questions—Tricia Marwick raised the matter earlier—and I believe that we need to give them further consideration.

We need to ensure that the project is co-ordinated. I pay tribute to the work of Fife Council, Scottish Enterprise, Fife Enterprise, the port authorities, rail freight interests and the many others involved in the work. I welcome the establishment of a project steering group as a means of taking the work forward practically and positively.

The Executive is clear that a ferry service from the east coast of Scotland would be welcome.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:08.9207112+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C713326", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Freight and Passenger Terminal (Fife)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27180, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 881.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 881.0, "ID": 27180, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 939.0, "ContributionID": 713326, "EditedText": "No thank you, I am winding up.I know that Henry McLeish visited Babcock at Rosyth on Tuesday this week and met the trade unions and senior management.", "EditedTextHTML": "No thank you, I am winding up.

I know that Henry McLeish visited Babcock at Rosyth on Tuesday this week and met the trade unions and senior management.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:08.9207112+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C713335", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Freight and Passenger Terminal (Fife)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27180, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 881.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 881.0, "ID": 27180, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 957.0, "ContributionID": 713335, "EditedText": "Does Fergus Ewing have a point of order?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does Fergus Ewing have a point of order?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:08.9207112+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1773E197P503C713261", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Equalities", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27178, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 685.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 685.0, "ID": 27178, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hyslop, Fiona", "ID": 1773, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona Hyslop", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona Hyslop: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 817.0, "ContributionID": 713261, "EditedText": "Will Ms Alexander give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Ms Alexander give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:00:13.0585835+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1756E184P464C713050", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Grahame, Christine", "ID": 1756, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Christine Grahame", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Christine Grahame: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 378.0, "ContributionID": 713050, "EditedText": "Just give me a moment; after listening to the debate for three hours, I have only just got up. I am not prepared to admit my age, but I shall start with a general observation or two about the attitude to older people outside this chamber—and sometimes inside it. There must be a change in Scottish society's attitude to older people. They are not a problem to be solved by dealing out piecemeal financial and social packages. I can assure members that I will not stand here spouting the motherhood-and-apple-pie platitudes that seem to be the diet of this Parliament 99 per cent of the time. Older people are not passive recipients, nor are they a homogenous group of people; we are all individuals. Older people are certainly not incapacitated, befuddled or redundant, although that often appears to be the baseline from which assessments are made. As has been said, ours is an agist society, perhaps more so in respect of women, for whom not only beauty, but worth, is skin deep. Contempt for and fear of aging are rife, and plastic surgery rules okay. Even the language of politics in which Labour indulges seems to endorse those prejudices. Everything must always be new, young, modernising. Well, I have news for the Executive: the older people in society are as individualistic as the young, and just as diverse in their personalities, talents and requirements, as Donald Gorrie was right to point out. They have skills and aspirations and that most valuable of life's commodities: experience. They are an asset to their families and communities, not a liability. I have two of my assets here today; my parents are in the public gallery. Aged 84 and 77, they are feisty people who have no time for Labour's platitudes. We need to educate the young and middle generations before the politics and the priorities can be righted. The Labour party wants to dole out packages, but it offers nothing that will give dignity, independence or choice to our pensioners. Let us consider the pension, which is at the root of the problem. The issue of pensions may not be devolved, but so what? We can talk about anything we like in this Parliament and that is what pensioners want us to do. If that upsets Johann Lamont, that is too bad.", "EditedTextHTML": "Just give me a moment; after listening to the debate for three hours, I have only just got up.

I am not prepared to admit my age, but I shall start with a general observation or two about the attitude to older people outside this chamber—and sometimes inside it. There must be a change in Scottish society's attitude to older people. They are not a problem to be solved by dealing out piecemeal financial and social packages. I can assure members that I will not stand here spouting the motherhood-and-apple-pie platitudes that seem to be the diet of this Parliament 99 per cent of the time. Older people are not passive recipients, nor are they a homogenous group of people; we are all individuals. Older people are certainly not incapacitated, befuddled or redundant, although that often appears to be the baseline from which assessments are made.

As has been said, ours is an agist society, perhaps more so in respect of women, for whom not only beauty, but worth, is skin deep. Contempt for and fear of aging are rife, and plastic surgery rules okay. Even the language of politics in which Labour indulges seems to endorse those prejudices. Everything must always be new, young, modernising. Well, I have news for the Executive: the older people in society are as individualistic as the young, and just as diverse in their personalities, talents and requirements, as Donald Gorrie was right to point out. They have skills and aspirations and that most valuable of life's commodities: experience. They are an asset to their families and communities, not a liability. I have two of my assets here today; my parents are in the public gallery. Aged 84 and 77, they are feisty people who have no time for Labour's platitudes.

We need to educate the young and middle generations before the politics and the priorities can be righted. The Labour party wants to dole out packages, but it offers nothing that will give dignity, independence or choice to our pensioners. Let us consider the pension, which is at the root of the problem. The issue of pensions may not be devolved, but so what? We can talk about anything we like in this Parliament and that is what pensioners want us to do. If that upsets Johann Lamont, that is too bad.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:01:48.3030692+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1756E184P464C713052", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Grahame, Christine", "ID": 1756, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Christine Grahame", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Christine Grahame: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 382.0, "ContributionID": 713052, "EditedText": "I do not want to hear from Johann Lamont; I have heard enough from her already. Pensions in other countries have been mentioned. The pension represents 60 per cent of average earnings in Belgium, and 40 per cent in Denmark. Margaret Smith, who has now left the chamber, said that independence alone would not solve the problems of Scotland's pensioners. Why is it a fairy story for Scotland but not for other countries that offer a decent pension? Because of fuel poverty, 2,000 people die every year in Scotland who would not otherwise have died. Many die of hypothermia. That is a disgrace, when, as Tommy Sheridan said, we have oil and gas revenues. The Labour party claims to have set targets for solving fuel poverty by 2003, but I would like to know the source of that claim. Delaying until 2003 will mean another 6,000 deaths, but that seems to be okay by Labour. It is essential that we reinstate the link between pensions and average earnings. I repeat that that is what pensioners want. If Labour is the listening party, it should start listening. I do not know where Keith Harding was digressing to when he was going on about dividend tax credits. The number of pensioners affected by that would be in the minority. The vast majority of pensioners live, as my parents do, on the state pension and on very small and shrinking occupational pensions. Having paid taxes and national insurance, the pensioners out there thought that they were providing for their older years, but they were not. The kitty has been spent, or Gordon Brown and Alistair Darling are sitting on it. As for committees and task forces, I am falling over them. How do joint committees in Westminster compare with joint committees here? They are a different breed from the cross-party committees of this Parliament. The former are tame pets—and I know who the owner is who is in charge of taming them—and the latter are free- roaming animals which, fortunately, are beginning to display minds of their own. How far would a Scottish minister get on the Great British state pension of £66.75 per week? They should put their answers on a postcard—a cheap one, please. What can they buy for 73p? Packets of crisps were mentioned. The Government could issue another shiny brochure. We have loads of them. Pensioners who are sitting close to their one-bar electric fires or who are wrapped up in bed early to keep warm could spend many an idle hour reading a Government brochure on how to spend their 73p. Would the Scottish people rather see money being spent on their pensioners than on that gross London executive toy the millennium dome? Why not get a focus group working on that question? How many pensioners will be travelling from Scotland to marvel at the millennium dome? Not many, because I have costed it. It would cost them £49 for the round trip and entry to the dome, leaving them with £18 from their weekly pension. The issue is one of priorities for Westminster, and Westminster's priorities are not Scotland's. On the matter of the Royal Commission on Long Term Care, I was pleased to see movement on Sir Stewart Sutherland's findings. That has been long awaited; the commission's report was published in March. It is important that a commission was set up and that small things are being done to help pensioners remain in their homes, but I am sceptical—I wonder why—about community care because the facts are not dinging right. I asked the Deputy Minister for Community Care, Iain Gray, about social work cuts in East Lothian Council, which caused a home to close down, people to be dispersed, meals on wheels to be stopped and pensioners to be given two week's supply of frozen food. I await an answer. I asked the Deputy Minister for Communities, Jackie Baillie, about the funding of day care centres, particularly Broomhill day centre at Penicuik, which provides elderly respite care and needs a little bit of money compared with what is being splashed out on shiny brochures, for example. I have still not received an answer. Those matters show what is happening on the ground. Kay Ullrich dealt with age discrimination in regard to breast cancer. That discrimination is a fact. Elderly women are not invited back for breast screening automatically, although the incidence is high. Other things are wrong. With regard to benefits, disability living allowance is not available if the applicant does not apply before they are 65 years old. If a carer does not apply for invalid care allowance before they are 65, they do not get it. As has been said, in our generation, people in their middle to late 60s are, thankfully, growing older with their parents. Those issues must be addressed, because although they are not big issues, they are big issues for the people who are involved. Kenny MacAskill dealt with the matter of transport. The three important words in relation to transport and pensioners are: available, accessible and affordable. Of course it is right that we have a national concessionary fare scheme in Scotland—and it is my party's policy. Sylvia Jackson referred to such a scheme, but the issue is when it will be introduced. People who are old will not be around for ever, waiting for promises down the line. We need single ticketing initiatives so that people can buy a ticket and travel great distances without having to change their ticket. We need co-ordinated timetables, which would benefit all society, not just old people. We need integrated transport, for example buses that run to hospitals and libraries. The infrequency of public transport in rural areas does not make it an alternative form of transport for those who live there and have special concerns. Many houses are poorly insulated and in need of repair. Often, older housing is designed badly. The warm deal does not address damp homes. That requires to be addressed. I have already said that it would be appropriate—it is mentioned in Sir Stewart Sutherland's report—to introduce small initiatives to enable older people to stay in their own homes. Measures such as handrails and walk-in seated showers are small, practical improvements with substantial outcomes for individuals, but they are not being taken. On community care, we should have integrated services with one-stop access to information. I think that it was Margaret Smith who mentioned the GP not only writing a prescription for medicine but completing a form for housing insulation. That is essential to assist elderly people, because health difficulties are related to housing problems and other matters.", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not want to hear from Johann Lamont; I have heard enough from her already.

Pensions in other countries have been mentioned. The pension represents 60 per cent of average earnings in Belgium, and 40 per cent in Denmark. Margaret Smith, who has now left the chamber, said that independence alone would not solve the problems of Scotland's pensioners. Why is it a fairy story for Scotland but not for other countries that offer a decent pension?

Because of fuel poverty, 2,000 people die every year in Scotland who would not otherwise have died. Many die of hypothermia. That is a disgrace, when, as Tommy Sheridan said, we have oil and gas revenues. The Labour party claims to have set targets for solving fuel poverty by 2003, but I would like to know the source of that claim. Delaying until 2003 will mean another 6,000 deaths, but that seems to be okay by Labour. It is essential that we reinstate the link between pensions and average earnings. I repeat that that is what pensioners want. If Labour is the listening party, it should start listening.

I do not know where Keith Harding was digressing to when he was going on about dividend tax credits. The number of pensioners affected by that would be in the minority. The vast majority of pensioners live, as my parents do, on the state pension and on very small and shrinking occupational pensions. Having paid taxes and national insurance, the pensioners out there thought that they were providing for their older years, but they were not. The kitty has been spent, or Gordon Brown and Alistair Darling are sitting on it.

As for committees and task forces, I am falling over them. How do joint committees in Westminster compare with joint committees here? They are a different breed from the cross-party committees of this Parliament. The former are tame pets—and I know who the owner is who is in charge of taming them—and the latter are free- roaming animals which, fortunately, are beginning to display minds of their own.

How far would a Scottish minister get on the Great British state pension of £66.75 per week? They should put their answers on a postcard—a cheap one, please. What can they buy for 73p? Packets of crisps were mentioned. The Government could issue another shiny brochure. We have loads of them. Pensioners who are sitting close to their one-bar electric fires or who are wrapped up in bed early to keep warm could spend many an idle hour reading a Government brochure on how to spend their 73p.

Would the Scottish people rather see money being spent on their pensioners than on that gross London executive toy the millennium dome? Why not get a focus group working on that question? How many pensioners will be travelling from Scotland to marvel at the millennium dome? Not many, because I have costed it. It would cost them £49 for the round trip and entry to the dome, leaving them with £18 from their weekly pension. The issue is one of priorities for Westminster, and Westminster's priorities are not Scotland's.

On the matter of the Royal Commission on Long Term Care, I was pleased to see movement on Sir Stewart Sutherland's findings. That has been long awaited; the commission's report was published in March. It is important that a commission was set up and that small things are being done to help pensioners remain in their homes, but I am sceptical—I wonder why—about community care because the facts are not dinging right.

I asked the Deputy Minister for Community Care, Iain Gray, about social work cuts in East Lothian Council, which caused a home to close down, people to be dispersed, meals on wheels to be stopped and pensioners to be given two week's supply of frozen food. I await an answer. I asked the Deputy Minister for Communities, Jackie Baillie, about the funding of day care centres, particularly Broomhill day centre at Penicuik, which provides elderly respite care and needs a little bit of money compared with what is being splashed out on shiny brochures, for example. I have still not received an answer. Those matters show what is happening on the ground.

Kay Ullrich dealt with age discrimination in regard to breast cancer. That discrimination is a fact. Elderly women are not invited back for breast screening automatically, although the incidence is high.

Other things are wrong. With regard to benefits, disability living allowance is not available if the applicant does not apply before they are 65 years old. If a carer does not apply for invalid care allowance before they are 65, they do not get it. As has been said, in our generation, people in their middle to late 60s are, thankfully, growing older with their parents. Those issues must be addressed, because although they are not big issues, they are big issues for the people who are involved.

Kenny MacAskill dealt with the matter of transport. The three important words in relation to transport and pensioners are: available, accessible and affordable. Of course it is right that we have a national concessionary fare scheme in Scotland—and it is my party's policy. Sylvia Jackson referred to such a scheme, but the issue is when it will be introduced. People who are old will not be around for ever, waiting for promises down the line.

We need single ticketing initiatives so that people can buy a ticket and travel great distances without having to change their ticket. We need co-ordinated timetables, which would benefit all society, not just old people. We need integrated transport, for example buses that run to hospitals and libraries. The infrequency of public transport in rural areas does not make it an alternative form of transport for those who live there and have special concerns.

Many houses are poorly insulated and in need of repair. Often, older housing is designed badly. The warm deal does not address damp homes. That requires to be addressed. I have already said that it would be appropriate—it is mentioned in Sir Stewart Sutherland's report—to introduce small initiatives to enable older people to stay in their own homes. Measures such as handrails and walk-in seated showers are small, practical improvements with substantial outcomes for individuals, but they are not being taken.

On community care, we should have integrated services with one-stop access to information. I think that it was Margaret Smith who mentioned the GP not only writing a prescription for medicine but completing a form for housing insulation. That is essential to assist elderly people, because health difficulties are related to housing problems and other matters.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:01:48.3030692+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1756E184P464C713060", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Grahame, Christine", "ID": 1756, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Christine Grahame", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Christine Grahame: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 398.0, "ContributionID": 713060, "EditedText": "I do not want to listen to Mr McAveety.", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not want to listen to Mr McAveety.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:01:48.3030692+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1756E184P464C713062", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Grahame, Christine", "ID": 1756, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Christine Grahame", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Christine Grahame: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 402.0, "ContributionID": 713062, "EditedText": "The Scottish National party would link the increase in pensions back to average earnings, and we would introduce a national concessionary fare and other initiatives. I will give Jackie Baillie a copy of our manifesto to make it easy for her. She could also read the Official Report of this debate.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Scottish National party would link the increase in pensions back to average earnings, and we would introduce a national concessionary fare and other initiatives. I will give Jackie Baillie a copy of our manifesto to make it easy for her. She could also read the Official Report of this debate.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:01:48.3030692+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1773E197P503C712928", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hyslop, Fiona", "ID": 1773, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona Hyslop", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona Hyslop (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 112.0, "ContributionID": 712928, "EditedText": "Will Robert Brown give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Robert Brown give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:01:40.7395022+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2133E222P520C713168", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27152, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 447.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27153, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 448.0, "QuestionHeading": "Disabled People", "QuestionHeadingID": 27171, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 608.0, "DisplayOrder": 608.0, "ID": 27171, "ParentID": 27153 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Matheson, Michael", "ID": 2133, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Matheson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "18. Michael Matheson (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 609.0, "ContributionID": 713168, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has to improve local authority service provision for disabled people. (S1O-782) The Deputy Minister for Community Care (Iain Gray): Our proposals to modernise community care will improve service for all client groups, including people with disabilities.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has to improve local authority service provision for disabled people. (S1O-782) The Deputy Minister for Community Care (Iain Gray): Our proposals to modernise community care will improve service for all client groups, including people with disabilities.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:08.3322377+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2133E222P520C713169", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27152, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 447.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27153, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 448.0, "QuestionHeading": "Disabled People", "QuestionHeadingID": 27171, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 608.0, "DisplayOrder": 608.0, "ID": 27171, "ParentID": 27153 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Matheson, Michael", "ID": 2133, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Matheson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Matheson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 611.0, "ContributionID": 713169, "EditedText": "Can the minister explain why, in his written answer of 20 October, he detailed that the expenditure on services for those with a physical disability, in the first year of a Labour Government, had decreased by 26.2 per cent? What action does he plan to take to address that situation? Why was there a reduction of 26.2 per cent? Will he tell me on what page of the social justice document that fact appears?", "EditedTextHTML": "Can the minister explain why, in his written answer of 20 October, he detailed that the expenditure on services for those with a physical disability, in the first year of a Labour Government, had decreased by 26.2 per cent? What action does he plan to take to address that situation? Why was there a reduction of 26.2 per cent? Will he tell me on what page of the social justice document that fact appears?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:08.3322377+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2133E222P520C713244", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Equalities", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27178, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 685.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 685.0, "ID": 27178, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Matheson, Michael", "ID": 2133, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Matheson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Matheson (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 782.0, "ContributionID": 713244, "EditedText": "It is rather disappointing that the Conservatives should propose an amendment on which the only Tories to speak are the person who moved it and the person who is closing the debate for the party. I thought that a larger number of the parliamentary group would have been able to contribute.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is rather disappointing that the Conservatives should propose an amendment on which the only Tories to speak are the person who moved it and the person who is closing the debate for the party. I thought that a larger number of the parliamentary group would have been able to contribute.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:12.769626+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C713099", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27152, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 447.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27153, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 448.0, "QuestionHeading": "Compulsory Purchase", "QuestionHeadingID": 27154, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 451.0, "DisplayOrder": 451.0, "ID": 27154, "ParentID": 27153 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment (Sarah Boyack): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 454.0, "ContributionID": 713099, "EditedText": "We are reviewing compulsory purchase powers as part of our commitment to modernise the planning system. Any legislation that we bring before the Scottish Parliament will need to be compatible with the convention.", "EditedTextHTML": "We are reviewing compulsory purchase powers as part of our commitment to modernise the planning system. Any legislation that we bring before the Scottish Parliament will need to be compatible with the convention.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:18.1559401+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C713166", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27152, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 447.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27153, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 448.0, "QuestionHeading": "Epilepsy", "QuestionHeadingID": 27170, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 599.0, "DisplayOrder": 599.0, "ID": 27170, "ParentID": 27153 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 604.0, "ContributionID": 713166, "EditedText": "There are 40,000 people in Scotland who suffer from epilepsy, but epilepsy is mentioned in the health improvement plans of only two health boards. What arrangements are in place for managed clinical networks in each health board area in Scotland?", "EditedTextHTML": "There are 40,000 people in Scotland who suffer from epilepsy, but epilepsy is mentioned in the health improvement plans of only two health boards. What arrangements are in place for managed clinical networks in each health board area in Scotland?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4825845+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C713167", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27152, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 447.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27153, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 448.0, "QuestionHeading": "Epilepsy", "QuestionHeadingID": 27170, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 599.0, "DisplayOrder": 599.0, "ID": 27170, "ParentID": 27153 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 606.0, "ContributionID": 713167, "EditedText": "Many of the developments that are taking place in health authorities throughout Scotland—to bring services together to work on a multi-agency basis, and to enable those services to listen more effectively to and meet patients' needs—will benefit epilepsy sufferers and people who suffer from many other conditions. I recently met representatives of the Epilepsy Association of Scotland. I have considered several ways in which the work can be carried out; we are continuing to consider that. I ask members to join me in working to break down the stigma and prejudice that surround epilepsy, so that we can build positive attitudes as well as effective services.", "EditedTextHTML": "Many of the developments that are taking place in health authorities throughout Scotland—to bring services together to work on a multi-agency basis, and to enable those services to listen more effectively to and meet patients' needs—will benefit epilepsy sufferers and people who suffer from many other conditions. I recently met representatives of the Epilepsy Association of Scotland. I have considered several ways in which the work can be carried out; we are continuing to consider that. I ask members to join me in working to break down the stigma and prejudice that surround epilepsy, so that we can build positive attitudes as well as effective services.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4825845+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1805E13P109C713175", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27152, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 447.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27153, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 448.0, "QuestionHeading": "Closed-circuit Television", "QuestionHeadingID": 27173, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 622.0, "DisplayOrder": 622.0, "ID": 27173, "ParentID": 27153 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Whitefield, Karen", "ID": 1805, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Airdrie and Shotts" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Karen Whitefield", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Karen Whitefield: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 625.0, "ContributionID": 713175, "EditedText": "I welcome the minister's reply. Does he agree that increased spending on CCTV in communities such as Northburn in Airdrie is making a real difference in the detection and conviction of criminals, especially those associated with violent crime?", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the minister's reply. Does he agree that increased spending on CCTV in communities such as Northburn in Airdrie is making a real difference in the detection and conviction of criminals, especially those associated with violent crime?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4825845+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C713176", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27152, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 447.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27153, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 448.0, "QuestionHeading": "Closed-circuit Television", "QuestionHeadingID": 27173, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 622.0, "DisplayOrder": 622.0, "ID": 27173, "ParentID": 27153 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Angus MacKay: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 627.0, "ContributionID": 713176, "EditedText": "Yes. There is no doubt that all the research evidence in support of CCTV indicates that it has a substantial impact on the detection of crime, the ability to obtain convictions as a result of that detection and the ability of police forces to marshal the use of their resources.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes. There is no doubt that all the research evidence in support of CCTV indicates that it has a substantial impact on the detection of crime, the ability to obtain convictions as a result of that detection and the ability of police forces to marshal the use of their resources.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4825845+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C713182", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27174, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 629.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27175, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 630.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27176, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 631.0, "DisplayOrder": 631.0, "ID": 27176, "ParentID": 27175 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 642.0, "ContributionID": 713182, "EditedText": "I normally welcome the quite frequent occasions on which John Swinney is in charge when his leader, Mr Salmond, is not with us. If he is going to play endlessly the base rate comparison game, he is merely obstructing and confusing the debate. I gave him some useful statistics, and I mentioned the weighting that we are building into health expenditure. I mentioned the increase in total health expenditure and I am very anxious—and happy—to have a constructive discussion with him, but I do not think that he is in the mood for that today, judging by that question.", "EditedTextHTML": "I normally welcome the quite frequent occasions on which John Swinney is in charge when his leader, Mr Salmond, is not with us. If he is going to play endlessly the base rate comparison game, he is merely obstructing and confusing the debate. I gave him some useful statistics, and I mentioned the weighting that we are building into health expenditure. I mentioned the increase in total health expenditure and I am very anxious—and happy—to have a constructive discussion with him, but I do not think that he is in the mood for that today, judging by that question.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4825845+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C713184", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27174, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 629.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27175, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 630.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27176, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 631.0, "DisplayOrder": 631.0, "ID": 27176, "ParentID": 27175 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 646.0, "ContributionID": 713184, "EditedText": "The Arbuthnott report made a number of important points not just about deprivation in urban areas but about under- provision of spending in some rural areas where there are additional costs in delivering medical services. I also say to Margo MacDonald, and I think she knows this, that no one is suggesting a cut in the Lothian health budget. We are talking about a significant redistribution in the light of detailed analysis of deprivation and health needs, which will be managed out of the increase in overall expenditure that we are providing.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Arbuthnott report made a number of important points not just about deprivation in urban areas but about under- provision of spending in some rural areas where there are additional costs in delivering medical

services. I also say to Margo MacDonald, and I think she knows this, that no one is suggesting a cut in the Lothian health budget. We are talking about a significant redistribution in the light of detailed analysis of deprivation and health needs, which will be managed out of the increase in overall expenditure that we are providing.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4825845+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2140E187P335C713191", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27174, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 629.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27175, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 630.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27176, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 631.0, "DisplayOrder": 631.0, "ID": 27176, "ParentID": 27175 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Rumbles, Mike", "ID": 2140, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Rumbles", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Mike Rumbles (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 660.0, "ContributionID": 713191, "EditedText": "As a result of his discussions with the secretary of state, does the First Minister think that he and the chancellor fully understand that the Administration in Edinburgh is a coalition between two political parties and is made up of not just one political party?", "EditedTextHTML": "As a result of his discussions with the secretary of state, does the First Minister think that he and the chancellor fully understand that the Administration in Edinburgh is a coalition between two political parties and is made up of not just one political party?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4825845+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C713192", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27174, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 629.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27175, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 630.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27176, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 631.0, "DisplayOrder": 631.0, "ID": 27176, "ParentID": 27175 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 662.0, "ContributionID": 713192, "EditedText": "That fact is well understood in this chamber and by all those who are part of the partnership—to which I referred in my previous answer. I can assure the member that, with certain exciting events that might be coming up in the next month or two, it is well understood much more widely. I value the partnership. It has worked well, and I look forward to its continuing.", "EditedTextHTML": "That fact is well understood in this chamber and by all those who are part of the partnership—to which I referred in my previous answer. I can assure the member that, with certain exciting events that might be coming up in the next month or two, it is well understood much more widely. I value the partnership. It has worked well, and I look forward to its continuing.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4825845+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1837E108P186C713196", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27174, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 629.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27175, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 630.0, "QuestionHeading": "Careers Service", "QuestionHeadingID": 27177, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 668.0, "DisplayOrder": 668.0, "ID": 27177, "ParentID": 27175 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mulligan, Mary", "ID": 1837, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Linlithgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Mulligan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Mulligan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 671.0, "ContributionID": 713196, "EditedText": "How can the Scottish Executive encourage careers service companies to develop their work in partnership with schools and other agencies, to identify young people who will find it most difficult to make the transition from school to work or further education?", "EditedTextHTML": "How can the Scottish Executive encourage careers service companies to develop their work in partnership with schools and other agencies, to identify young people who will find it most difficult to make the transition from school to work or further education?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4825845+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713200", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27174, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 629.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27175, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 630.0, "QuestionHeading": "Careers Service", "QuestionHeadingID": 27177, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 668.0, "DisplayOrder": 668.0, "ID": 27177, "ParentID": 27175 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 679.0, "ContributionID": 713200, "EditedText": "I am sorry. Laughter. That is fair enough.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry. [Laughter.] That is fair enough.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4825845+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713207", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Equalities", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27178, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 685.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 685.0, "ID": 27178, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 695.0, "ContributionID": 713207, "EditedText": "Before I call the next speaker, I should say that the time limit on speeches in the open debate will be five minutes.", "EditedTextHTML": "Before I call the next speaker, I should say that the time limit on speeches in the open debate will be five minutes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4825845+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1863E284P532C713208", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Equalities", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27178, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 685.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 685.0, "ID": 27178, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Cunningham, Roseanna", "ID": 1863, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Perth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Roseanna Cunningham", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Roseanna Cunningham (Perth) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 698.0, "ContributionID": 713208, "EditedText": "I sometimes think that I have strayed into a management seminar. All that is missing are the flow charts to go with the buzzwords. It may come as a shock to the minister that we all support equality of opportunity. Nobody has a monopoly on this area. The statement on equality strategy from Wendy Alexander, who I believe will be talking to us—I hope not at us—at the end of the debate, is a reaffirmation of the document produced by the Executive on 9 September. In her statement, she \"encourages everyone with an interest in equality to send in comments on the statement in writing to the Equality Unit by 18 February.\" I was not sure whether that was meant to indicate a formal consultation or not. I hope that there will be a guarantee that there will be a response to the comments received and that they will be acted upon, especially as some of the organisations will be campaigning for legislative changes, which she is unable to initiate. The motion today is very general and, as such, will be disappointing to the many groups that are looking for real change, especially those groups concerned with issues of race and sexual orientation. The SNP regards equality as, first and foremost, an issue of justice. It has always been the SNP's belief that a Scottish Parliament would present us with an opportunity to take radical steps forward in Scottish society and take us into the 21st century with laws that ensure nondiscrimination on the basis of sex, age, religion, race or sexual orientation. Unfortunately, we are not being given that opportunity. That should be a matter of regret for all members in this chamber. accept that, even without legislative competence, there is a great deal that can be done. I recall speaking at a number of conferences and meetings in the year previous to the May elections and it was always possible to compile an impressive list of initiatives that could be undertaken and which met many of the demands made by organisations lobbying in this policy area. For example, the commitment to repeal section 2A, better known as section 28, has been SNP policy for many years. It was always clear that, notwithstanding the reservation of equal opportunities, repeal would be perfectly competent within the devolution settlement. Indeed, we welcome the announcement that that will happen. I do not take away from the possibilities that are currently available; other SNP speakers will make more specific references to those possibilities. Initiatives are always likely to be supported by the SNP, because of our long commitment to equal opportunities. The Executive need have no fear about that. However, there is no point in running away from the reality of the restrictions that are imposed on the Scottish Parliament by the reservation contained within the Scotland Act 1998. That reservation is fairly wide-ranging and includes the Equal Pay Act 1970, the Sex Discrimination Act 1975, the Race Relations Act 1976 and the Disability Discrimination Act 1995. It covers all matters relating to the bodies set up under the existing legislation: the Equal Opportunities Commission, the Commission for Racial Equality and the National Disability Council. Many organisations feel that the current situation is inefficient and unfair, so Labour members cannot sweep the issue aside with one of those \"They would say that\" sneers that seem to be their standard response to anything that they find a bit challenging. The director of Disability Scotland has said that\"the new Disability Rights Commission should have an autonomous policy making ability at this stage, albeit within the UK framework. If we cannot get these powers then there needs to be a review and consideration to having more devolved powers.\" Tim Hopkins of Equality Network, an admirable organisation with which many members will be familiar, has reiterated comments that he made in January 1998: \"Equal opportunities regulations are in need of updating and we feel that the power to do this in Scotland should be available to the Scottish Parliament.\" How has Westminster dealt with race relations? Since 1976, the Commission for Racial Equality has submitted three reviews of the Race Relations Act 1976 with proposals for substantial reform. The first submission received no response whatever and the second was rejected outright. The third, which was submitted to the present Home Secretary in April 1998, received a mixed response. Eight of the recommendations received no response, two were clearly accepted and a substantial number were either accepted conditionally or received no clear decision. However, two Queen's speeches later, little progress is promised. The Deputy Minister for Communities, in opening the debate, referred to the experience of black Scots. Perhaps the Minister for Communities, in closing, will include some indication of her response to the CRE's recent document \"Racial Equality Matters—an Agenda for the Scottish Parliament\". I ask that now, as I understand that the minister is unlikely to allow any interventions later. The CRE is still waiting to hear her views and, if she is serious about the concerns expressed here, no doubt she will want to do the CRE that courtesy. Those were a few observations from some of the organisations that are active in the field. I have not referred to all of them, but it is fair to say that most have concerns about the current position. They also have the rather more specific concern that they were totally unaware of today's debate, and are unhappy that they did not know about it far enough in advance to give us the benefit of their views. Many aspects of the equality debate have a distinctly Scottish perspective. That difference will simply not be taken on board by Westminster, whether or not it gets around to legislating on those matters. For example, it is an undeniable fact that the composition of ethnic minorities in Scotland is very different from that in England and is complicated by the fact that we cannot exclude anti-English discrimination as an area of concern. A debate on equalities must, of necessity, be wide-ranging, but I want to highlight one area in which the inability to legislate can be felt already. It has been a puzzle to me for many years that, despite all the rhetoric about religious discrimination, the issue has simply been swept under the carpet. That may be understandable— perhaps religious discrimination has not been a factor in English public life and is therefore not at the forefront of people's minds as an equality issue. Who can tell? However, that is absolutely not the case for Scotland, not now and certainly not when the Sex Discrimination Act 1975 and the Race Relations Act 1976 were being passed. I will not talk about the Act of Settlement today; I am talking about addressing a problem that may be getting better, but, as we all know, still exists in Scotland. Addressing that problem will be a matter for Westminster. So, what is happening with regard to religious discrimination? I am happy to report that the Home Office has decided that it had better consider the situation. I am not clear about precisely what motivated that concern. There is, of course, pressure from various religious groups in England to have the issue addressed, since much racial discrimination masquerades as religious discrimination and, presumably, hopes to evade the law by doing so. Quite rightly, the Home Office has commissioned some research into the extent of religious discrimination, but only in England and Wales. Frankly, this is a ridiculous situation. The power to legislate to deal with religious discrimination is reserved, which means that this Parliament cannot legislate on it. The Home Office, whose responsibility it is, is interested only in the situation in England and Wales and the situation in Scotland disappears into a black hole. More accurately, we are in a Catch-22 situation: we cannot do what is necessary and those who can will not. Even if they chose to legislate, legislation would be on the basis of work that is not applicable to Scotland's particular concerns. That situation cannot be right. It cannot be right that this Parliament, which has to deal with the fall-out from the discrimination that remains, cannot take the necessary steps to address the problem. Most people accept that although problems of discrimination are the same for people throughout the world, particular circumstances in different countries make the needs of legislation different. The SNP always envisaged a Parliament that would be more ground-breaking on the issue than Westminster has been. I only wish that more people shared that vision. I note that the Liberal Democrats were eloquent on the subject at the time of the debates on the Scotland bill. I recall Donald Gorrie saying that the Liberal Democrats believed that the Scottish Parliament should have the right to legislate on the matter. He and his colleagues supported SNP amendments at the time and were vocal in their view that this matter should have been devolved. I wonder what their position will be today. The Government did not think that Scotland should have that power, but the truth is that no adequate reason was given for the decision to reserve equal opportunities. The suspicion lingers that, somehow, it was felt that we could not be trusted, which is ironic, given the shared commitment to equal opportunities that members of this Parliament express with such frequency. Further, while this Parliament has an Equal Opportunities Committee, Westminster does not. The assumption must be that Westminster does not need one. It is a pity that the Scotland Act 1998 does not allow us to co-opt people on to Scottish parliamentary committees as that means that the Equal Opportunities Committee is unable to have representation from the ethnic minority community, which is the one area in which this Parliament has been a signal failure. The sad fact is that although we can do a great deal, our hands are tied until Westminster gets round to legislating, and even then, we cannot be sure that the legislation will take into account the circumstances that exist in Scotland. If we are to judge from the Home Office approach, we can be certain that Scotland's specific problems will not be addressed. What a ridiculous position to be in and what a ridiculous position the Executive is in having to defend it. I move amendment S1M-334.2, to leave out from \"welcomes\" to end and insert: \"recognises the fundamental importance of equality of opportunity in Scotland both now and for the future and therefore regrets that legislative competence in this area remains reserved to Westminster.\"", "EditedTextHTML": "I sometimes think that I have strayed into a management seminar. All that is missing are the flow charts to go with the buzzwords.

It may come as a shock to the minister that we all support equality of opportunity. Nobody has a monopoly on this area. The statement on equality strategy from Wendy Alexander, who I believe will be talking to us—I hope not at us—at the end of the debate, is a reaffirmation of the document produced by the Executive on 9 September. In her statement, she

\"encourages everyone with an interest in equality to send in comments on the statement in writing to the Equality Unit by 18 February.\"

I was not sure whether that was meant to indicate a formal consultation or not. I hope that there will be a guarantee that there will be a response to the comments received and that they will be acted upon, especially as some of the organisations will be campaigning for legislative changes, which she is unable to initiate.

The motion today is very general and, as such, will be disappointing to the many groups that are looking for real change, especially those groups concerned with issues of race and sexual orientation. The SNP regards equality as, first and foremost, an issue of justice. It has always been the SNP's belief that a Scottish Parliament would present us with an opportunity to take radical steps forward in Scottish society and take us into the 21st century with laws that ensure nondiscrimination on the basis of sex, age, religion, race or sexual orientation. Unfortunately, we are not being given that opportunity. That should be a matter of regret for all members in this chamber.

accept that, even without legislative competence, there is a great deal that can be done. I recall speaking at a number of conferences and meetings in the year previous to the May elections and it was always possible to compile an impressive list of initiatives that could be undertaken and which met many of the demands made by organisations lobbying in this policy area. For example, the commitment to repeal section 2A, better known as section 28, has been SNP policy for many years. It was always clear that, notwithstanding the reservation of equal opportunities, repeal would be perfectly competent within the devolution settlement. Indeed, we welcome the announcement that that will happen. I do not take away from the possibilities that are currently available; other SNP speakers will make more specific references to those possibilities.

Initiatives are always likely to be supported by the SNP, because of our long commitment to equal opportunities. The Executive need have no fear about that. However, there is no point in running away from the reality of the restrictions that are imposed on the Scottish Parliament by the reservation contained within the Scotland Act 1998. That reservation is fairly wide-ranging and includes the Equal Pay Act 1970, the Sex Discrimination Act 1975, the Race Relations Act 1976 and the Disability Discrimination Act 1995. It covers all matters relating to the bodies set up under the existing legislation: the Equal Opportunities Commission, the Commission for Racial Equality and the National Disability Council.

Many organisations feel that the current situation is inefficient and unfair, so Labour members cannot sweep the issue aside with one of those \"They would say that\" sneers that seem to be their standard response to anything that they find a bit challenging.

The director of Disability Scotland has said that

\"the new Disability Rights Commission should have an autonomous policy making ability at this stage, albeit within the UK framework. If we cannot get these powers then there needs to be a review and consideration to having more devolved powers.\"

Tim Hopkins of Equality Network, an admirable organisation with which many members will be familiar, has reiterated comments that he made in January 1998:

\"Equal opportunities regulations are in need of updating and we feel that the power to do this in Scotland should be available to the Scottish Parliament.\"

How has Westminster dealt with race relations? Since 1976, the Commission for Racial Equality has submitted three reviews of the Race Relations Act 1976 with proposals for substantial reform. The first submission received no response whatever and the second was rejected outright. The third, which was submitted to the present

Home Secretary in April 1998, received a mixed response. Eight of the recommendations received no response, two were clearly accepted and a substantial number were either accepted conditionally or received no clear decision. However, two Queen's speeches later, little progress is promised.

The Deputy Minister for Communities, in opening the debate, referred to the experience of black Scots. Perhaps the Minister for Communities, in closing, will include some indication of her response to the CRE's recent document \"Racial Equality Matters—an Agenda for the Scottish Parliament\". I ask that now, as I understand that the minister is unlikely to allow any interventions later. The CRE is still waiting to hear her views and, if she is serious about the concerns expressed here, no doubt she will want to do the CRE that courtesy.

Those were a few observations from some of the organisations that are active in the field. I have not referred to all of them, but it is fair to say that most have concerns about the current position. They also have the rather more specific concern that they were totally unaware of today's debate, and are unhappy that they did not know about it far enough in advance to give us the benefit of their views.

Many aspects of the equality debate have a distinctly Scottish perspective. That difference will simply not be taken on board by Westminster, whether or not it gets around to legislating on those matters. For example, it is an undeniable fact that the composition of ethnic minorities in Scotland is very different from that in England and is complicated by the fact that we cannot exclude anti-English discrimination as an area of concern.

A debate on equalities must, of necessity, be wide-ranging, but I want to highlight one area in which the inability to legislate can be felt already. It has been a puzzle to me for many years that, despite all the rhetoric about religious discrimination, the issue has simply been swept under the carpet. That may be understandable— perhaps religious discrimination has not been a factor in English public life and is therefore not at the forefront of people's minds as an equality issue. Who can tell? However, that is absolutely not the case for Scotland, not now and certainly not when the Sex Discrimination Act 1975 and the Race Relations Act 1976 were being passed.

I will not talk about the Act of Settlement today; I am talking about addressing a problem that may be getting better, but, as we all know, still exists in Scotland. Addressing that problem will be a matter for Westminster. So, what is happening with regard to religious discrimination? I am happy to report that the Home Office has decided that it had better consider the situation. I am not clear about

precisely what motivated that concern. There is, of course, pressure from various religious groups in England to have the issue addressed, since much racial discrimination masquerades as religious discrimination and, presumably, hopes to evade the law by doing so. Quite rightly, the Home Office has commissioned some research into the extent of religious discrimination, but only in England and Wales.

Frankly, this is a ridiculous situation. The power to legislate to deal with religious discrimination is reserved, which means that this Parliament cannot legislate on it. The Home Office, whose responsibility it is, is interested only in the situation in England and Wales and the situation in Scotland disappears into a black hole. More accurately, we are in a Catch-22 situation: we cannot do what is necessary and those who can will not. Even if they chose to legislate, legislation would be on the basis of work that is not applicable to Scotland's particular concerns. That situation cannot be right.

It cannot be right that this Parliament, which has to deal with the fall-out from the discrimination that remains, cannot take the necessary steps to address the problem. Most people accept that although problems of discrimination are the same for people throughout the world, particular circumstances in different countries make the needs of legislation different. The SNP always envisaged a Parliament that would be more ground-breaking on the issue than Westminster has been. I only wish that more people shared that vision.

I note that the Liberal Democrats were eloquent on the subject at the time of the debates on the Scotland bill. I recall Donald Gorrie saying that the Liberal Democrats believed that the Scottish Parliament should have the right to legislate on the matter. He and his colleagues supported SNP amendments at the time and were vocal in their view that this matter should have been devolved. I wonder what their position will be today.

The Government did not think that Scotland should have that power, but the truth is that no adequate reason was given for the decision to reserve equal opportunities. The suspicion lingers that, somehow, it was felt that we could not be trusted, which is ironic, given the shared commitment to equal opportunities that members of this Parliament express with such frequency. Further, while this Parliament has an Equal Opportunities Committee, Westminster does not. The assumption must be that Westminster does not need one.

It is a pity that the Scotland Act 1998 does not allow us to co-opt people on to Scottish parliamentary committees as that means that the Equal Opportunities Committee is unable to have representation from the ethnic minority community, which is the one area in which this Parliament has been a signal failure. The sad fact is that although we can do a great deal, our hands are tied until Westminster gets round to legislating, and even then, we cannot be sure that the legislation will take into account the circumstances that exist in Scotland. If we are to judge from the Home Office approach, we can be certain that Scotland's specific problems will not be addressed.

What a ridiculous position to be in and what a ridiculous position the Executive is in having to defend it.

I move amendment S1M-334.2, to leave out from \"welcomes\" to end and insert:

\"recognises the fundamental importance of equality of opportunity in Scotland both now and for the future and therefore regrets that legislative competence in this area remains reserved to Westminster.\"

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4825845+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2066E64P88C713209", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Equalities", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27178, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 685.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 685.0, "ID": 27178, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McGrigor, Jamie", "ID": 2066, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie McGrigor", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Jamie McGrigor (Highlands and Islands) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 701.0, "ContributionID": 713209, "EditedText": "As the only Scottish Conservative member of the Equal Opportunities Committee, I am delighted to contribute to this debate. The Scottish Conservatives are totally committed to eliminating discrimination and ensuring equal opportunities for everyone in the UK, regardless of race, religion, sex or social class. We are one nation and we are proud of our traditions, our achievements and our reputation for freedom and tolerance. The Scottish Parliament gives us a wonderful opportunity further to enhance equal opportunities. Our aim must be to create a society that is comfortable with heterogeneity and which sees nothing unusual in the differences of its members. That will be achieved only when people of both genders, all races, all faiths and all backgrounds are found in all jobs across the land in positions that they have reached on merit and on merit alone. The Scottish Conservatives are proud of our multicultural society. Scotland and the UK are enhanced, not diminished, as nations by the contributions of people from different backgrounds and cultures. In recent years, great progress has been made in breaking down the barriers to equality in business, the media, sport, entertainment and the arts, academia and public administration. Opportunities for young people have also been enhanced through greater access to further and higher education, although that has been undermined by the Lib-Lab tuition fees scandal. In spite of all those advances, we cannot allow ourselves to become complacent. Undoubtedly, barriers to opportunity remain in our society. We must do more for our disabled citizens to make them feel included in the new Scotland. For example, we should ensure that, wherever possible, disabled children follow mainstream education, rather than being sent to special schools or units. In trains, boats and planes, provision should be made to make life easier and more comfortable for the disabled. As always, I make my plea that the Parliament works for all of Scotland, not just the central belt. As our observant and splendid First Minister recently said, people live and work in rural areas; however, they cannot do so in a museum-like time warp. I thank him for that, and remind the Executive how difficult it is for people living on the edge, with fuel at 90p a litre and all basic commodities priced well above the Scottish average. People who feel forgotten feel unequal, and cynicism about our new Parliament is tragic. The Conservative-inspired University of the Highlands and Islands goes a long way—", "EditedTextHTML": "As the only Scottish Conservative member of the Equal Opportunities Committee, I am delighted to contribute to this debate. The Scottish Conservatives are totally committed to eliminating discrimination and ensuring equal opportunities for everyone in the UK, regardless of race, religion, sex or social class.

We are one nation and we are proud of our traditions, our achievements and our reputation for freedom and tolerance. The Scottish Parliament gives us a wonderful opportunity further to enhance equal opportunities. Our aim must be to create a society that is comfortable with heterogeneity and which sees nothing unusual in the differences of its members. That will be achieved only when people of both genders, all races, all faiths and all backgrounds are found in all jobs across the land in positions that they have reached on merit and on merit alone.

The Scottish Conservatives are proud of our multicultural society. Scotland and the UK are enhanced, not diminished, as nations by the contributions of people from different backgrounds and cultures. In recent years, great progress has been made in breaking down the barriers to equality in business, the media, sport, entertainment and the arts, academia and public administration. Opportunities for young people have also been enhanced through greater access to further and higher education, although that has been undermined by the Lib-Lab tuition fees scandal.

In spite of all those advances, we cannot allow ourselves to become complacent. Undoubtedly, barriers to opportunity remain in our society. We must do more for our disabled citizens to make

them feel included in the new Scotland. For example, we should ensure that, wherever possible, disabled children follow mainstream education, rather than being sent to special schools or units. In trains, boats and planes, provision should be made to make life easier and more comfortable for the disabled.

As always, I make my plea that the Parliament works for all of Scotland, not just the central belt. As our observant and splendid First Minister recently said, people live and work in rural areas; however, they cannot do so in a museum-like time warp. I thank him for that, and remind the Executive how difficult it is for people living on the edge, with fuel at 90p a litre and all basic commodities priced well above the Scottish average. People who feel forgotten feel unequal, and cynicism about our new Parliament is tragic.

The Conservative-inspired University of the Highlands and Islands goes a long way—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4825845+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1752E75P296C713210", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Equalities", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27178, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 685.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 685.0, "ID": 27178, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jamieson, Cathy", "ID": 1752, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Cathy Jamieson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Cathy Jamieson (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 703.0, "ContributionID": 713210, "EditedText": "I welcome Mr McGrigor's recognition that people have suffered discrimination in terms of race, class and faith. However, if it is not too rude a question, could he clarify what is meant by sex in the Conservatives' amendment? Does it mean gender or sexual orientation? Further, would his party endorse the commitment of the Executive to repealing section 2A of the Local Government Act 1986 as a major step towards promoting tolerance, understanding and equality for gays and lesbians?", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome Mr McGrigor's recognition that people have suffered discrimination in terms of race, class and faith. However, if it is not too rude a question, could he clarify what is meant by sex in the Conservatives' amendment? Does it mean gender or sexual orientation? Further, would his party endorse the commitment of the Executive to repealing section 2A of the Local Government Act 1986 as a major step towards promoting tolerance, understanding and equality for gays and lesbians?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4825845+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2066E64P88C713211", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Equalities", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27178, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 685.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 685.0, "ID": 27178, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McGrigor, Jamie", "ID": 2066, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie McGrigor", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McGrigor: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 705.0, "ContributionID": 713211, "EditedText": "On her first question, I think that Ms Jamieson was referring to sexual orientation and on her second, no, we do not think that it is a good idea to repeal section 28. I thank her for that. The Conservative-inspired University of the Highlands and Islands goes a long way to providing more equality in education but, needless to say, its colleges are at a disadvantage due to the extra costs of being so remote. I ask the minister whether the Executive has plans to take account of that by increasing funds, as it does for primary and secondary education in those areas. In this country, we are fortunate—", "EditedTextHTML": "On her first question, I think that Ms Jamieson was referring to sexual orientation and on her second, no, we do not think that it is a good idea to repeal section 28. I thank her for that.

The Conservative-inspired University of the Highlands and Islands goes a long way to providing more equality in education but, needless to say, its colleges are at a disadvantage due to the extra costs of being so remote. I ask the minister whether the Executive has plans to take account of that by increasing funds, as it does for primary and secondary education in those areas.

In this country, we are fortunate—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4825845+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2140E187P335C713212", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Equalities", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27178, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 685.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 685.0, "ID": 27178, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Rumbles, Mike", "ID": 2140, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Rumbles", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Mike Rumbles (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 707.0, "ContributionID": 713212, "EditedText": "What is the Conservatives' view, bearing in mind the comments that Mr McGrigor has just made about being in favour of equality—", "EditedTextHTML": "What is the Conservatives' view, bearing in mind the comments that Mr McGrigor has just made about being in favour of equality—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4825845+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2066E64P88C713215", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Equalities", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27178, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 685.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 685.0, "ID": 27178, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McGrigor, Jamie", "ID": 2066, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie McGrigor", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McGrigor: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 713.0, "ContributionID": 713215, "EditedText": "We are quite clear that we should leave it up to the heads of our armed forces to give us advice on that. In this country, we are fortunate enough to have some of the toughest legislation in Europe aimed at combating the evil of racial discrimination. The Scottish Conservatives are fully committed to building upon that in the new Scotland. Our message must be loud and clear: discrimination, whether positive or negative, is inexcusable. I look forward to the day when the Scottish Parliament has many more members, of all party affiliations, from black and ethnic minorities. Last Saturday, I made a speech on behalf of my party at the Scottish Trades Union Congress black workers conference in Glasgow. I greatly enjoyed the conference and the party afterwards. In my contribution, I referred to the most moving speech I have ever heard, by a man who influenced so many of my generation. I am talking about Martin Luther King. He stressed that in the process of gaining minorities their rightful place, we must not be guilty of wrongful deeds. I whole-heartedly endorse that principle. There is no question but that the ethnic minorities have the aptitude and ability to represent the people of Scotland in this chamber and I hope that they will be doing that soon. However, we must recognise once and for all that so-called positive discrimination is a wrongful deed. It unfairly favours and patronises some and discriminates against others. Indeed, it was part of King's dream that one day his children would live in a nation where they would be judged not by the colour of their skin, but by the content of their character. Let us make King's dream a reality in Scotland. Let us have a society that treats people on the basis of merit, not background. Let us have a society where access is universal and there are no special rules or status for any group. Let us have a society that fulfils Martin Luther King's dream that \"All of God's children, black men and white men, Jews and Gentiles, Protestants and Catholics\" will \"sit together at the table of brotherhood.\"", "EditedTextHTML": "We are quite clear that we should leave it up to the heads of our armed forces to give us advice on that.

In this country, we are fortunate enough to have some of the toughest legislation in Europe aimed at combating the evil of racial discrimination. The Scottish Conservatives are fully committed to building upon that in the new Scotland. Our message must be loud and clear: discrimination, whether positive or negative, is inexcusable. I look forward to the day when the Scottish Parliament has many more members, of all party affiliations, from black and ethnic minorities.

Last Saturday, I made a speech on behalf of my party at the Scottish Trades Union Congress black workers conference in Glasgow. I greatly enjoyed the conference and the party afterwards. In my contribution, I referred to the most moving speech I have ever heard, by a man who influenced so many of my generation. I am talking about Martin Luther King. He stressed that in the process of gaining minorities their rightful place, we must not be guilty of wrongful deeds. I whole-heartedly endorse that principle.

There is no question but that the ethnic minorities have the aptitude and ability to represent the people of Scotland in this chamber and I hope that they will be doing that soon. However, we must recognise once and for all that so-called positive discrimination is a wrongful deed. It unfairly favours and patronises some and discriminates against others. Indeed, it was part of King's dream that one day his children would live in a nation where they would be judged not by the colour of their skin, but by the content of their character.

Let us make King's dream a reality in Scotland. Let us have a society that treats people on the basis of merit, not background. Let us have a society where access is universal and there are no special rules or status for any group. Let us have a society that fulfils Martin Luther King's dream that

\"All of God's children, black men and white men, Jews and Gentiles, Protestants and Catholics\" will

\"sit together at the table of brotherhood.\"

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4825845+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1850E185P354C713218", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Equalities", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27178, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 685.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 685.0, "ID": 27178, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Radcliffe, Nora", "ID": 1850, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Gordon" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nora Radcliffe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nora Radcliffe (Gordon) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 720.0, "ContributionID": 713218, "EditedText": "Equality is about recognising the worth of every individual. Every one of us is different and unique. In an equal society, we must be prepared to embrace the full width and depth of the human race in all its diversity and manifestations, not just the narrow range with which we are familiar or feel comfortable. Equality is a big challenge; it is a challenge for every one of us, as individuals, never mind as a Parliament. To achieve equality we have to become aware of our own prejudices, ignorance and personal blinkers. Then we must make a conscious effort to overcome them and we must persuade others to do the same. It will take generations to accomplish, if we ever do. Just because it is a long and rocky road is no reason not to set out along it, or to continue along it. Much has been done already: there are tools to help us, advice and information, and where there is a will there is a way. Information is crucial. We need good information about our population in order to measure whether resources, services, jobs and opportunities are being fairly allocated across all sectors of our community. We need good information about people's needs, whether that relates to their health and welfare or their cultural and religious requirements. To collect the information, we must be meticulous in seeking out every section of society. It is not easy to persist and to penetrate beyond those people who are articulate and easily accessible, to those people who are cut off by geography, language, lack of expectation, and isolation because of age, disability, infirmity or weight of caring responsibilities. We need to ask the right questions, in the right way, to get useful and meaningful answers. I was struck by a quotation that I came across about the census: \"The census is not just an exercise in gathering dry statistics—it is a crucially important educational and social policy instrument that has a subtle psychological impact on the social climate since it is sent to every household in the nation. The way the religious and ethnic questions are formulated sends a signal to the entire population about the way the Government understands the multicultural nature of modern Britain.\" It has been suggested that breaking down the description \"white\" into the categories: English, Irish, Scottish, Welsh, other, would normalise the concept of ethnicity by underlining the existence of indigenous ethnicity as well as foreign ethnicity, and would challenge the two-tone, white-and-other view of the world. We live in a society where discrimination, conscious and unconscious, is all around us. listened to the debate this morning about the plight of Scotland's pensioners. Without in any way making light of the real needs of a large proportion of our elderly population, and the problems of fuel poverty, inadequate incomes and isolation—all of which were highlighted in the eloquent contributions that were made on behalf of older people by speakers in the debate—I was conscious throughout of a faint undercurrent of agism, and a tendency to talk about the elderly almost as if they were a race apart. There were some positive contributions, but I would have liked to hear some celebration of what old age can mean and of what elderly people can contribute. Older people are our community. They keep most of it running. They have leisure time and experience of life, and they know how to enjoy them. By and large, they are looking after each other and us. Let us not forget to acknowledge their place in the community and to be glad of it; and let us not forget to ensure that they have equal access to the fun things as well as to the necessities. Have members ever realised how commercial radio discriminates against older people? Commercial radio was established 25 years ago and, in those 25 years, the radio authorities have awarded almost 170 licences. Nearly all of them have gone to operators that were targeting young age groups, even though 81 per cent of people over the age of 55 listen to the radio, or, as my generation called it, the wireless. Out of 166 commercial radio stations, only seven have their greatest market penetration among the over-55 age group. Only 28 per cent of over-55s listen to local commercial radio, a medium that could be an ideal way of reaching elderly or housebound people, if the type of programme that was broadcast encouraged them to listen to their local station. However, that is for our colleagues at Westminster to think about. Do we think carefully enough about the effects of well-meant policies on different groups? Inclusive education is a good thing. Children should all have the same opportunity to mix with their peer group on terms as equal as we can make them. However, I have recently had it pointed out to me that a profoundly deaf child is totally isolated in a hearing peer group. Because total deafness afflicts such a small percentage of the population, real inclusion can be achieved only by collecting deaf children together in a special school where communication is non-verbal. Children should all be allowed to enjoychildhood equally. The youngsters out there who are caring for dependent parents or relatives desperately need recognition and support to give them equal opportunities for education and leisure and freedom from adult responsibilities. There has been an awareness of, and a willingness to tackle, discrimination on the grounds of race, religion, disability and gender for many years. I am glad that we are now adding discrimination on the ground of sexual orientation. If one regards homosexuality as a matter of choice, discrimination against it equates with religious discrimination. If one believes that it is genetic, discrimination against it is on a par with racial discrimination. The number of people whose lives have been made miserable by having to hide or deny their sexuality is not known, but it is estimated that between 3 and 10 per cent of the population is gay or lesbian. A figure of 3 per cent would represent about 150,000 people in Scotland. I hope that I am a tolerant and caring person; I want to live in a tolerant and caring Scotland. If I belittle or demean another human being, I belittle and demean myself. Equality for all is a tremendous goal. To achieve it, we must first admit how far short of it we fall and set about tackling that shortfall. I think and I hope that we will do both.", "EditedTextHTML": "Equality is about recognising the worth of every individual. Every one of us is different and unique. In an equal society, we must be prepared to embrace the full width and depth of the human race in all its diversity and manifestations, not just the narrow range with which we are familiar or feel comfortable. Equality is a big challenge; it is a challenge for every one of us, as individuals, never mind as a Parliament.

To achieve equality we have to become aware of our own prejudices, ignorance and personal blinkers. Then we must make a conscious effort to overcome them and we must persuade others to do the same. It will take generations to accomplish, if we ever do. Just because it is a long and rocky road is no reason not to set out along it, or to continue along it. Much has been done already: there are tools to help us, advice and information, and where there is a will there is a way.

Information is crucial. We need good information about our population in order to measure whether resources, services, jobs and opportunities are being fairly allocated across all sectors of our community. We need good information about people's needs, whether that relates to their health and welfare or their cultural and religious requirements. To collect the information, we must be meticulous in seeking out every section of society. It is not easy to persist and to penetrate beyond those people who are articulate and easily accessible, to those people who are cut off by geography, language, lack of expectation, and isolation because of age, disability, infirmity or weight of caring responsibilities. We need to ask the right questions, in the right way, to get useful and meaningful answers.

I was struck by a quotation that I came across about the census:

\"The census is not just an exercise in gathering dry statistics—it is a crucially important educational and social policy instrument that has a subtle psychological impact on the social climate since it is sent to every household in the nation. The way the religious and ethnic questions are formulated sends a signal to the entire population about the way the Government understands the multicultural nature of modern Britain.\"

It has been suggested that breaking down the description \"white\" into the categories: English, Irish, Scottish, Welsh, other, would normalise the concept of ethnicity by underlining the existence of indigenous ethnicity as well as foreign ethnicity, and would challenge the two-tone, white-and-other view of the world.

We live in a society where discrimination, conscious and unconscious, is all around us. listened to the debate this morning about the plight of Scotland's pensioners. Without in any way making light of the real needs of a large proportion of our elderly population, and the problems of fuel poverty, inadequate incomes and isolation—all of which were highlighted in the eloquent contributions that were made on behalf of older people by speakers in the debate—I was conscious throughout of a faint undercurrent of agism, and a tendency to talk about the elderly almost as if they were a race apart. There were some positive contributions, but I would have liked to hear some celebration of what old age can mean and of what elderly people can contribute.

Older people are our community. They keep most of it running. They have leisure time and experience of life, and they know how to enjoy them. By and large, they are looking after each other and us. Let us not forget to acknowledge their place in the community and to be glad of it; and let us not forget to ensure that they have equal access to the fun things as well as to the necessities.

Have members ever realised how commercial radio discriminates against older people? Commercial radio was established 25 years ago and, in those 25 years, the radio authorities have awarded almost 170 licences. Nearly all of them have gone to operators that were targeting young age groups, even though 81 per cent of people over the age of 55 listen to the radio, or, as my generation called it, the wireless.

Out of 166 commercial radio stations, only seven have their greatest market penetration among the over-55 age group. Only 28 per cent of over-55s listen to local commercial radio, a medium that could be an ideal way of reaching elderly or housebound people, if the type of programme that was broadcast encouraged them to listen to their local station. However, that is for our colleagues at Westminster to think about.

Do we think carefully enough about the effects of well-meant policies on different groups? Inclusive education is a good thing. Children should all have the same opportunity to mix with their peer group on terms as equal as we can make them. However, I have recently had it pointed out to me that a profoundly deaf child is totally isolated in a hearing peer group. Because total deafness afflicts such a small percentage of the population, real inclusion can be achieved only by collecting deaf children together in a special school where communication is non-verbal.

Children should all be allowed to enjoy

childhood equally. The youngsters out there who are caring for dependent parents or relatives desperately need recognition and support to give them equal opportunities for education and leisure and freedom from adult responsibilities.

There has been an awareness of, and a willingness to tackle, discrimination on the grounds of race, religion, disability and gender for many years. I am glad that we are now adding discrimination on the ground of sexual orientation. If one regards homosexuality as a matter of choice, discrimination against it equates with religious discrimination. If one believes that it is genetic, discrimination against it is on a par with racial discrimination. The number of people whose lives have been made miserable by having to hide or deny their sexuality is not known, but it is estimated that between 3 and 10 per cent of the population is gay or lesbian. A figure of 3 per cent would represent about 150,000 people in Scotland.

I hope that I am a tolerant and caring person; I want to live in a tolerant and caring Scotland. If I belittle or demean another human being, I belittle and demean myself. Equality for all is a tremendous goal. To achieve it, we must first admit how far short of it we fall and set about tackling that shortfall. I think and I hope that we will do both.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4825845+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1807E84P267C713229", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Equalities", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27178, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 685.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 685.0, "ID": 27178, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Maclean, Kate", "ID": 1807, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dundee West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kate Maclean", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Kate MacLean: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 745.0, "ContributionID": 713229, "EditedText": "I conclude by saying that, today, we have made a start. I am fairly confident that we can make a real difference and I hope that that confidence is shared by others in the chamber and, more important, in the wider community.", "EditedTextHTML": "I conclude by saying that, today, we have made a start. I am fairly confident that we can make a real difference and I hope that that confidence is shared by others in the chamber and, more important, in the wider community.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4825845+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2134E160P198C713219", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Equalities", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27178, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 685.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 685.0, "ID": 27178, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McMahon, Michael", "ID": 2134, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton North and Bellshill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael McMahon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Michael McMahon (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 723.0, "ContributionID": 713219, "EditedText": "Jamie McGrigor was right to highlight Martin Luther King's famous speech in which he asked for people to be judged by the content of their character, not by the colour of their skin. That speech, so radical in its time, should echo in this Parliament and stand as a reminder to all of us of the necessity to ensure equality of opportunity for all Scotland's people. Although I would not claim to be as eloquent or as prestigious a speaker as the Reverend King, I want to express my deep support for the framework for an equality strategy that was announced today. As a member of the Parliament's Equal Opportunities Committee, I welcome the Executive's commitment to create a fair and just society in which all individuals, whatever their background, have equal rights and opportunities. Those values, which I know are shared throughout the chamber, are primarily Labour values and will take us and our country into the new century. I want to draw members' attention to inclusion in education. Many young people with difficulties have a restricted choice of educational establishment. They are often deemed not suitable for mainstream education and are placed in more specialist settings instead. The culture of diverting so many young people to specialist educational establishments is not consistent with the Executive's strategy of inclusion. In many areas of Scotland, there is the presumption that special schools are better—but better for whom? Surely not for the children. Segregated education brands children with disabilities as second class and is not an equal, but a different, education. Although children can be offered specialist support, they are denied the opportunity to grow with their able-bodied peers. That proves a missed opportunity to educate children in mainstream schools, who must also be given the opportunity to learn with those with disabilities and, by doing so, learn to see the ability in those people. Mainstream inclusive education must be the way forward for children with disabilities. Such children must not be branded as different; they are different only in that they have a disability. If a child needs an auxiliary, a speech therapist or specialist equipment, that should be provided for the child in a mainstream setting. I know from experience the difference that such help can make to young people. Instead of excluding them and tearing them from their friends and communities, the Executive should ensure that resources are available to provide our children with choice. Let me make myself clear. I am talking not about dumping special needs children in mainstream schools without support, but about supporting their needs in schools within communities by transferring resources from specialist units to those schools. I urge the Executive to take positive steps to transfer resources from the costly two-tier system to equip professional teachers with the skills to support our future generations. Rather than perpetuate prejudice—as the Equity Group says— we must move to a system such as Sweden's which is the opposite of the current system in Scotland. In Sweden, special needs children are automatically supported in mainstream schools and placing children in specialist learning centres is the exception rather than the rule. That should be the way forward for our country. I do not advocate the abolition of specialist centres—they do valuable work—but we must give parents a clear choice, which they do not often have at present. We must provide Scottish parents and children with information to make such choices, which is why I welcome the work of Enquire, the information service run by Children in Scotland. We must transfer the resources allocated to specialist centres to enable integration to occur. I believe passionately in equality of opportunity; Ihave supported it all my life. I recognise the commitment of ministers—Jackie Baillie and Wendy Alexander—in the Scottish Executive and the commitment that exists throughout the chamber, regardless of party, to equality of opportunity. I hope, therefore, that the Parliament will support the Executive today. The framework for an equality strategy is rooted in the traditions of tolerance and understanding, which is welcome. I urge the Executive to move forward in partnership with all interested parties, including the Equity Group, which campaign for real inclusion and equality in our education system. Once equality is achieved, we will truly be able to say, in the words of Martin Luther King: \"Free at last! Free at last!\"", "EditedTextHTML": "Jamie McGrigor was right to highlight Martin Luther King's famous speech in which he asked for people to be judged by the content of their character, not by the colour of their skin. That speech, so radical in its time, should echo in this Parliament and stand as a reminder to all of us of the necessity to ensure equality of opportunity for all Scotland's people.

Although I would not claim to be as eloquent or as prestigious a speaker as the Reverend King, I want to express my deep support for the framework for an equality strategy that was announced today. As a member of the Parliament's Equal Opportunities Committee, I welcome the Executive's commitment to create a fair and just society in which all individuals, whatever their background, have equal rights and opportunities. Those values, which I know are shared throughout the chamber, are primarily Labour values and will take us and our country into the new century.

I want to draw members' attention to inclusion in education. Many young people with difficulties have a restricted choice of educational establishment. They are often deemed not suitable for mainstream education and are placed in more specialist settings instead. The culture of diverting so many young people to specialist educational establishments is not consistent with the Executive's strategy of inclusion. In many areas of Scotland, there is the presumption that special schools are better—but better for whom? Surely not for the children.

Segregated education brands children with disabilities as second class and is not an equal, but a different, education. Although children can be offered specialist support, they are denied the opportunity to grow with their able-bodied peers. That proves a missed opportunity to educate children in mainstream schools, who must also be given the opportunity to learn with those with disabilities and, by doing so, learn to see the ability in those people.

Mainstream inclusive education must be the way forward for children with disabilities. Such children must not be branded as different; they are different only in that they have a disability. If a child needs an auxiliary, a speech therapist or specialist equipment, that should be provided for the child in a mainstream setting. I know from experience the difference that such help can make to young people. Instead of excluding them and tearing them from their friends and communities, the Executive should ensure that resources are available to provide our children with choice.

Let me make myself clear. I am talking not about dumping special needs children in mainstream schools without support, but about supporting their needs in schools within communities by transferring resources from specialist units to those schools.

I urge the Executive to take positive steps to transfer resources from the costly two-tier system to equip professional teachers with the skills to support our future generations. Rather than perpetuate prejudice—as the Equity Group says— we must move to a system such as Sweden's which is the opposite of the current system in Scotland. In Sweden, special needs children are automatically supported in mainstream schools and placing children in specialist learning centres is the exception rather than the rule. That should be the way forward for our country.

I do not advocate the abolition of specialist centres—they do valuable work—but we must give parents a clear choice, which they do not often have at present. We must provide Scottish parents and children with information to make such choices, which is why I welcome the work of Enquire, the information service run by Children in Scotland. We must transfer the resources allocated to specialist centres to enable integration to occur.

I believe passionately in equality of opportunity; I

have supported it all my life. I recognise the commitment of ministers—Jackie Baillie and Wendy Alexander—in the Scottish Executive and the commitment that exists throughout the chamber, regardless of party, to equality of opportunity. I hope, therefore, that the Parliament will support the Executive today.

The framework for an equality strategy is rooted in the traditions of tolerance and understanding, which is welcome. I urge the Executive to move forward in partnership with all interested parties, including the Equity Group, which campaign for real inclusion and equality in our education system. Once equality is achieved, we will truly be able to say, in the words of Martin Luther King:

\"Free at last! Free at last!\"

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4825845+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1807E84P267C713221", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Equalities", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27178, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 685.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 685.0, "ID": 27178, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Maclean, Kate", "ID": 1807, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dundee West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kate Maclean", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Kate MacLean (Dundee West) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 729.0, "ContributionID": 713221, "EditedText": "While I can agree with a lot of what has been said, it would probably have been more appropriate to debate it at another time. I would like to return to the issues that we are meant to be debating today. I do not have a tremendous problem with the SNP amendment, although I do not think that it does anything. An amendment that suggested something a bit more positive would have been more useful. I find the Conservative amendment absolutely ludicrous. It mentions: \"regardless of race, sex, class or faith\".Jamie McGrigor said that sex meant sexual orientation. Gender and disability are therefore excluded from Bill Aitken's amendment. The Conservatives seem to think that being called politically correct is some kind of insult; I regard it as more of a compliment. I welcome today's opportunity to debate equality. Although there is not enough time to do the subject justice, I hope that over many occasions in this chamber, there will be chances to discuss equality of opportunity on an issue-byissue basis. The Deputy Minister for Communities said that this is just the start. It is. We can link other important equal opportunities principles of the consultative steering group report: accessibility and accountability. We can link the establishment of a statutory Equal Opportunities Committee and an equality unit and the Executive's commitment to mainstreaming equal opportunities which was given today and which Donald Dewar gave yesterday evening. That can be proven only in the course of time—it is, at this stage, a commitment. I think, however, that the First Minister's launching of the equal opportunities mainstreaming checklist last night gave a positive message. I have been involved as an elected representative for almost 12 years. I am only too aware of how little can be achieved in any organisation unless there is commitment at a senior level. I look forward to the commitment being turned into action by the Executive. I want to be positive this afternoon, although it is understandable that there is a great deal of cynicism and an epidemic of promise fatigue in areas in which people have been working and trying to achieve an end to discrimination for years. We have made a start this afternoon, but we have to be honest and say that we have a long way to go. The minister mentioned public appointments. A real effort has to be made to address current inequalities. The process for making public appointments has to be far more transparent. We will have to consider how to ensure that as wide a range of Scottish society as possible is aware that appointments have been made. We have to ensure that no anomalies exist that skew the figures on gender balance, for example. Appointments to children's panels are included among public appointments. Because far more women are members of children's panels, that makes the figures look good. While it is possible to achieve 50 per cent representation of women by next year, it is important that the figures for children's panels should be removed first when considering public appointments. We must also consider areas that are not within our remit. For example, do benefits regulations prevent people from taking part in public appointments to citizens juries? We must also ensure that lack of child care is not a barrier.", "EditedTextHTML": "While I can agree with a lot of what has been said, it would probably have been more appropriate to debate it at another time. I would like to return to the issues that we are meant to be debating today.

I do not have a tremendous problem with the SNP amendment, although I do not think that it does anything. An amendment that suggested something a bit more positive would have been more useful.

I find the Conservative amendment absolutely ludicrous. It mentions:

\"regardless of race, sex, class or faith\".

Jamie McGrigor said that sex meant sexual orientation. Gender and disability are therefore excluded from Bill Aitken's amendment. The Conservatives seem to think that being called politically correct is some kind of insult; I regard it as more of a compliment.

I welcome today's opportunity to debate equality. Although there is not enough time to do the subject justice, I hope that over many occasions in this chamber, there will be chances to discuss equality of opportunity on an issue-byissue basis.

The Deputy Minister for Communities said that this is just the start. It is. We can link other important equal opportunities principles of the consultative steering group report: accessibility and accountability. We can link the establishment of a statutory Equal Opportunities Committee and an equality unit and the Executive's commitment to mainstreaming equal opportunities which was given today and which Donald Dewar gave yesterday evening. That can be proven only in the course of time—it is, at this stage, a commitment. I think, however, that the First Minister's launching of the equal opportunities mainstreaming checklist last night gave a positive message.

I have been involved as an elected representative for almost 12 years. I am only too aware of how little can be achieved in any organisation unless there is commitment at a senior level. I look forward to the commitment being turned into action by the Executive.

I want to be positive this afternoon, although it is understandable that there is a great deal of cynicism and an epidemic of promise fatigue in areas in which people have been working and trying to achieve an end to discrimination for years. We have made a start this afternoon, but we have to be honest and say that we have a long way to go.

The minister mentioned public appointments. A real effort has to be made to address current inequalities. The process for making public appointments has to be far more transparent. We will have to consider how to ensure that as wide a range of Scottish society as possible is aware that appointments have been made.

We have to ensure that no anomalies exist that skew the figures on gender balance, for example. Appointments to children's panels are included among public appointments. Because far more women are members of children's panels, that makes the figures look good.

While it is possible to achieve 50 per cent representation of women by next year, it is important that the figures for children's panels should be removed first when considering public appointments. We must also consider areas that are not within our remit. For example, do benefits regulations prevent people from taking part in public appointments to citizens juries? We must also ensure that lack of child care is not a barrier.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2066E64P88C713222", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Equalities", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27178, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 685.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 685.0, "ID": 27178, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McGrigor, Jamie", "ID": 2066, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie McGrigor", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McGrigor: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 731.0, "ContributionID": 713222, "EditedText": "On gender equality, I would not want it to be construed that I meant that I wanted an entirely male-dominated world. Apart from that, I took the word sex to include sexual orientation as well as gender—", "EditedTextHTML": "On gender equality, I would not want it to be construed that I meant that I wanted an entirely male-dominated world. Apart from that, I took the word sex to include sexual orientation as well as gender—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C713224", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Equalities", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27178, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 685.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 685.0, "ID": 27178, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ms Patricia Ferguson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 735.0, "ContributionID": 713224, "EditedText": "Please carry on.", "EditedTextHTML": "Please carry on.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1820E139P227C713231", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Equalities", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27178, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 685.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 685.0, "ID": 27178, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Curran, Margaret", "ID": 1820, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Baillieston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Curran", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Margaret Curran (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 751.0, "ContributionID": 713231, "EditedText": "Like other members, I welcome this debate and I am glad to be participating in it. It is fitting that this subject is at the centre of this Parliament's agenda. The equal representation of women is a cause that has been dear to my heart for many years. We should not underestimate the achievement of this Parliament; given the number of women that it contains, it is one of the most advanced Parliaments in the world. That was achieved not through wishful thinking, but through hard work. It was achieved by winning the argument that the exclusion of women cannot be treated with anything other than urgency and that we cannot wait for equality to happen naturally. We must take responsibility for the fact that women are not present in any great number in the political system—certainly not in the Conservative party. A means for involving them must be found. I am proud of the balance that has been achieved in the Scottish Labour group—the ratio of women to men is exactly 50:50—and in the Parliament as a whole. We are at the forefront of the progressive movement in the world. Indeed, in South Africa, the freedom movement argued for positive action for women; it regarded it as a critical issue. However, with all due respect, I would say that the true successor to Martin Luther King is Nelson Mandela, not the Scottish Tories. In India, the women's reservation bill is going through the Parliament as we speak—I hope, successfully. That is critical in advancing the economic and social issues that women— particularly poor women—face. Throughout the world, the need is appreciated to bring women into key levels of decision making. The equal representation of women was never meant to be an end in itself; it was always meant to be a means to an end. We must create real change. There has been some evidence of such change, but we know that we must go further. I was most depressed by the SNP's contribution today. I know some people in that party; several of them have significant contributions to make to the equality debate. It is sad that they have not made those contributions today. One of the positive things that has happened today is Susan Deacon's announcement that bullying, harassment and intimidation have no place in Scotland's family planning centres. That, too, is at the heart of the equality debate. I respect the views of people who do not share my opinions on the right to choose, but let us be absolutely clear that women must be allowed to exercise their rights freely. Workers have the right to deliver their services in safety. That is a real issue, which the Executive is tackling. The problem is more profound than that, however. Susan Deacon also mentioned teenage pregnancy. Given the health report that was published today—which I take very seriously and am deeply anxious about—we must do something. Teenage pregnancy is an issue in my constituency, and the work that Susan Deacon has outlined is about an holistic, measured and appropriate manner of dealing with teenage pregnancy. We must not underestimate the problems that face the most vulnerable young women in our communities. There is chronic drug misuse, pregnancy and increased smoking—those are real and serious problems. It is appropriate that we begin to examine how to widen the horizons of young women. There are no easy answers, but solutions cannot be beyond our reach. We must look at institutional processes in education and at social and cultural processes so that we can encourage women to be more assertive and to have greater expectations. In that way, we will be able to broaden their horizons. The women's agenda crosses the whole Executive; it is important that we make the debate on equality prominent within that agenda. It is also important that mainstreaming—for which we argue strongly—does not mean that the women's arguments get lost. The anti-racist movement has much to teach us about an approach to institutional processes. That movement has shown us much in terms of understanding institutional discrimination. For years, when complaints about discrimination were made, people were told that organisations were sorry, that they did not mean it and that what was going on was not discrimination, but procedure or administration. That attitude has been seen most clearly in the police and criminal justice services. In those services, racism was consistently denied, only to be proven later. Recent cases in Scotland have shown how significant those issues are. The criminal justice system in Scotland has—to put it mildly—been insensitive to people who have faced considerable tragedy and pain. I hope that the criminal justice system can ease the burden on the Chhokar family, so that the trial can, at least, be held in Glasgow rather than in Edinburgh. In conclusion, I believe that equality is critical to the Parliament. It was such a prominent feature in the Parliament's creation that we must please not leave it now. The Executive is moving in the right direction and, believe me, there are people here who will keep it on its toes if we think that it is falling behind. From domestic violence to the repeal of section 28, the Government has signalled that it is determined about what it will do. Let us see what the SNP has to say. Will all SNP members support the abolition of section 28? I am proud of what this Government is doing; I hope that the SNP can be proud of what it does.", "EditedTextHTML": "Like other members, I welcome this debate and I am glad to be participating in it. It is fitting that this subject is at the centre of this Parliament's agenda. The equal representation of women is a cause that has been dear to my heart for many years.

We should not underestimate the achievement of this Parliament; given the number of women that it contains, it is one of the most advanced Parliaments in the world. That was achieved not through wishful thinking, but through hard work. It was achieved by winning the argument that the exclusion of women cannot be treated with anything other than urgency and that we cannot wait for equality to happen naturally.

We must take responsibility for the fact that women are not present in any great number in the political system—certainly not in the Conservative party. A means for involving them must be found. I am proud of the balance that has been achieved in the Scottish Labour group—the ratio of women to men is exactly 50:50—and in the Parliament as a whole. We are at the forefront of the progressive movement in the world. Indeed, in South Africa, the freedom movement argued for positive action for women; it regarded it as a critical issue. However, with all due respect, I would say that the true successor to Martin Luther King is Nelson Mandela, not the Scottish Tories.

In India, the women's reservation bill is going through the Parliament as we speak—I hope, successfully. That is critical in advancing the economic and social issues that women— particularly poor women—face. Throughout the world, the need is appreciated to bring women into key levels of decision making.

The equal representation of women was never meant to be an end in itself; it was always meant to be a means to an end. We must create real change. There has been some evidence of such change, but we know that we must go further.

I was most depressed by the SNP's contribution today. I know some people in that party; several of them have significant contributions to make to the equality debate. It is sad that they have not made those contributions today.

One of the positive things that has happened today is Susan Deacon's announcement that bullying, harassment and intimidation have no place in Scotland's family planning centres. That, too, is at the heart of the equality debate. I respect the views of people who do not share my opinions on the right to choose, but let us be absolutely clear that women must be allowed to exercise their rights freely. Workers have the right to deliver their services in safety. That is a real issue, which the Executive is tackling.

The problem is more profound than that, however. Susan Deacon also mentioned teenage pregnancy. Given the health report that was published today—which I take very seriously and am deeply anxious about—we must do something. Teenage pregnancy is an issue in my constituency, and the work that Susan Deacon has outlined is about an holistic, measured and appropriate manner of dealing with teenage pregnancy. We must not underestimate the problems that face the most vulnerable young women in our communities. There is chronic drug misuse, pregnancy and increased smoking—those are real and serious problems.

It is appropriate that we begin to examine how to widen the horizons of young women. There are no easy answers, but solutions cannot be beyond our reach. We must look at institutional processes in education and at social and cultural processes so that we can encourage women to be more assertive and to have greater expectations. In that way, we will be able to broaden their horizons. The women's agenda crosses the whole Executive; it is important that we make the debate on equality prominent within that agenda. It is also important that mainstreaming—for which we argue strongly—does not mean that the women's arguments get lost.

The anti-racist movement has much to teach us about an approach to institutional processes. That movement has shown us much in terms of understanding institutional discrimination. For years, when complaints about discrimination were made, people were told that organisations were sorry, that they did not mean it and that what was going on was not discrimination, but procedure or administration. That attitude has been seen most clearly in the police and criminal justice services. In those services, racism was consistently denied, only to be proven later. Recent cases in Scotland have shown how significant those issues are. The criminal justice system in Scotland has—to put it mildly—been insensitive to people who have faced

considerable tragedy and pain. I hope that the criminal justice system can ease the burden on the Chhokar family, so that the trial can, at least, be held in Glasgow rather than in Edinburgh.

In conclusion, I believe that equality is critical to the Parliament. It was such a prominent feature in the Parliament's creation that we must please not leave it now. The Executive is moving in the right direction and, believe me, there are people here who will keep it on its toes if we think that it is falling behind. From domestic violence to the repeal of section 28, the Government has signalled that it is determined about what it will do. Let us see what the SNP has to say. Will all SNP members support the abolition of section 28? I am proud of what this Government is doing; I hope that the SNP can be proud of what it does.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1820E139P227C713239", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Equalities", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27178, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 685.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 685.0, "ID": 27178, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Curran, Margaret", "ID": 1820, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Baillieston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Curran", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Curran: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 769.0, "ContributionID": 713239, "EditedText": "Lloyd Quinan had five minutes— that is not fair.", "EditedTextHTML": "Lloyd Quinan had five minutes— that is not fair.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2185E120P328C713242", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Equalities", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27178, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 685.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 685.0, "ID": 27178, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Brown, Robert", "ID": 2185, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robert Brown", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robert Brown (Glasgow) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 776.0, "ContributionID": 713242, "EditedText": "Liberal Democrats welcome today's debate, as it is in tune with the fundamental principles of liberal democracy. In particular, it is in tune with the principle that every individual in our society should be valued for themselves and for their potential contribution to society, regardless of the personal attributes that have been detailed today. As Jackie Baillie rightly reminded us, the issue of equality is right at the centre of the Parliament's operations. However, the key theme in this agenda is not legislation or controls by Government, but attitude. The Conservative amendment echoes that theme when it castigates the labelling of people by categories and calls for the enhancement of individual personal freedom. That is a valid point, as far as it goes. Equality of opportunity means the opportunity for all our citizens to have access to the educational and other life chances that society offers. It also means the opportunity to go about our daily lives without suffering petty abuse or discrimination, without being excluded and without being affected by the prejudicial attitudes of other people or institutions, which detract from our equality before the law. Attitude is critical, but it is affected by what our children learn in their formative years and by laws that define what is unacceptable. We must end discriminatory practices in law such as section 2A of the Local Government Act 1986, which was introduced by the Conservatives. Being socially inclusive today, I share the regret that is expressed in the SNP amendment that equal opportunities have been left substantially as reserved matters. Roseanna Cunningham was right to highlight the difficulties that that created. Liberal Democrat MPs recognised those difficulties and pointed them out to the Government and to the Westminster Parliament during the passage of the Scotland Act 1998. However, Roseanna rather over-egged the cake with her strident criticisms of the current situation, and I urge the SNP to recognise that much can be done within the present set-up. We could, for example, establish a Scottish human rights commission. Such a commission, which Liberal Democrats have advocated for many years, could work in harmony with the Equal Opportunities Commission and the Commission for Racial Equality to ensure a united focus on equality issues and to provide a mechanism for enhancing the Scottish contribution on matters that are specifically reserved. An independent Scottish human rights commission could be seen as a natural part of the home rule settlement— certainly, that is how Liberal Democrats have always seen it. It could also be of considerable relevance to the asylum seekers—on whom Fiona Hyslop earlier opined so elegantly—particularly when the Human Rights Act 1998 comes into force across the United Kingdom next year. I want to touch on the importance of language in equality issues. Language is about communication and understanding. For profoundly deaf people, that means recognition of British sign language as an official language and support for it throughout the country's institutions. For ethnic minority groups—particularly for women in ethnic minority groups—the ability to use the English language is empowerment. I can offer the example of one of my clients, whose divorce case I dealt with. Because she had been a housewife who stayed at home and looked after the children, she was totally cut off from contact with the outside world following the break-up of her family situation. Having English as a means of communication with the wider community would have been crucial to her. The reverse is true as well. If we are to have a multicultural society, there must be adequate provision for minority-language teaching—I mean not just Gaelic, but Urdu and other languages that are used by minority populations—to help people to keep in touch with their cultural roots and to help people born and bred in this country to understand and deal with the ethnic diversity that now exists. I support the Executive motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "Liberal Democrats welcome today's debate, as it is in tune with the fundamental principles of liberal democracy. In particular, it is in tune with the principle that every individual in our society should be valued for themselves and for their potential contribution to society, regardless of the personal attributes that have been detailed today.

As Jackie Baillie rightly reminded us, the issue of equality is right at the centre of the Parliament's operations. However, the key theme in this agenda is not legislation or controls by Government, but attitude. The Conservative amendment echoes that theme when it castigates the labelling of people by categories and calls for the enhancement of individual personal freedom. That is a valid point, as far as it goes. Equality of opportunity means the opportunity for all our citizens to have access to the educational and other life chances that society offers. It also means the opportunity to go about our daily lives without suffering petty abuse or discrimination, without being excluded and without being affected by the prejudicial attitudes of other people or institutions, which detract from our equality before the law. Attitude is critical, but it is affected by what our children learn in their formative years and by laws that define what is unacceptable. We must end discriminatory practices in law such as section 2A of the Local Government Act 1986, which was introduced by the Conservatives.

Being socially inclusive today, I share the regret that is expressed in the SNP amendment that equal opportunities have been left substantially as reserved matters. Roseanna Cunningham was right to highlight the difficulties that that created. Liberal Democrat MPs recognised those difficulties and pointed them out to the Government and to the Westminster Parliament during the passage of the Scotland Act 1998. However, Roseanna rather over-egged the cake with her strident criticisms of the current situation, and I urge the SNP to recognise that much can be done within the present set-up.

We could, for example, establish a Scottish human rights commission. Such a commission, which Liberal Democrats have advocated for many years, could work in harmony with the Equal Opportunities Commission and the Commission for Racial Equality to ensure a united focus on equality issues and to provide a mechanism for enhancing the Scottish contribution on matters that are specifically reserved. An independent Scottish human rights commission could be seen as a natural part of the home rule settlement— certainly, that is how Liberal Democrats have always seen it. It could also be of considerable relevance to the asylum seekers—on whom Fiona Hyslop earlier opined so elegantly—particularly when the Human Rights Act 1998 comes into force across the United Kingdom next year.

I want to touch on the importance of language in equality issues. Language is about communication and understanding. For profoundly deaf people,

that means recognition of British sign language as an official language and support for it throughout the country's institutions. For ethnic minority groups—particularly for women in ethnic minority groups—the ability to use the English language is empowerment. I can offer the example of one of my clients, whose divorce case I dealt with. Because she had been a housewife who stayed at home and looked after the children, she was totally cut off from contact with the outside world following the break-up of her family situation. Having English as a means of communication with the wider community would have been crucial to her.

The reverse is true as well. If we are to have a multicultural society, there must be adequate provision for minority-language teaching—I mean not just Gaelic, but Urdu and other languages that are used by minority populations—to help people to keep in touch with their cultural roots and to help people born and bred in this country to understand and deal with the ethnic diversity that now exists.

I support the Executive motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2234E7P20C713243", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Equalities", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27178, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 685.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 685.0, "ID": 27178, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Aitken, Bill", "ID": 2234, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bill Aitken", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bill Aitken (Glasgow) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 779.0, "ContributionID": 713243, "EditedText": "The minister said that this debate was about equality; Roseanna Cunningham spoke about justice. I want to speak about common sense, as equality is justice and justice is common sense. We have had a very interesting and constructive debate. In his excellent speech, Jamie McGrigor stressed certain aspects of the wider debate; he highlighted disability, as did Jackie Baillie. We rejoice in the fact that nowadays we adopt a much more constructive and positive attitude towards disability. We want to be an inclusive society. The one point on which I might take issue with Jamie McGrigor was his description of the First Minister as observant and splendid. Most of us might think that he is rather myopic in certain directions. In this debate, we are plotting a course for the years ahead. There were some very sound speeches. Nora Radcliffe spoke about agism, which not many members have done. Perhaps this morning's debate highlighted the fact that agism is a problem in our society to which we have not faced up. Michael McMahon made some excellent points about special schools and the needs of children who are disadvantaged. I welcome the fact that he may advance his ideas either at the Education, Culture and Sport Committee or at a meeting of the whole Parliament. Fiona Hyslop made—not for the first time—a valid point when she said that motions were being framed in a highly self-congratulatory way. She let herself down slightly by using management speak—with which we have become so familiar— despite the fact that Roseanna Cunningham had condemned that form of speaking. Fiona made some other valid points, although, as someone who in a previous existence was involved in the matter of the Iraqi students in Glasgow, I must say that the monopoly of blame did not lie entirely with the Glasgow population. I agreed with much of what Kate MacLean said, such as her point that public appointments should be transparent. Lest there be any doubt on the matter, we use the word \"sex\" as a generic term to embrace gender and sexual orientation, thus demonstrating the inclusiveness that we have in the current Conservative party. The most valid of Irene McGugan's points related to the funding of the Fair Play organisation. It will be interesting to know what the Executive decides about that. Margaret Curran referred to the hard work that women had put into achieving the degree of equality that they have achieved. She might also have mentioned intellect, as that had something to do with it. The debate has been very consensual. We would not have lodged our amendment unless we felt the need to sound a note of caution. If this debate is to be meaningful, it must be about real equality. Nobody should be disadvantaged because of their race, colour, gender or sexual orientation. Minorities must be protected, but we must recognise that the majority has rights, collectively and as individuals. Just as there are dangers in discrimination, there are also dangers in the so-called politically correct thinking that advocates positive discrimination. That creates an atmosphere of animosity and resentment that can generate the very prejudices that we want to remove from our society. Parliament and every public body must make it quite clear that all our appointments and decisions are made purely on merit. We do not adhere to the old prejudices, nor do we adhere to the new prejudices of political correctness. That would be hypocrisy in the extreme and would demonstrate that some people in our society are more equal than others. That vital point must be borne in mind in our future deliberations. Jamie McGrigor stressed that merit must be the sole criterion for public appointments. The Conservatives would have no difficulty were there to be a monopoly of public appointments of people from one particular race, gender or sexual orientation, provided that those appointments were made purely on merit. There is much to be commended in what the Executive has said today. However, we feel that we must underline our point about merit, and that is the purpose of the Conservative amendment.", "EditedTextHTML": "The minister said that this debate was about equality; Roseanna Cunningham spoke about justice. I want to speak about common sense, as equality is justice and justice is common sense.

We have had a very interesting and constructive debate. In his excellent speech, Jamie McGrigor stressed certain aspects of the wider debate; he highlighted disability, as did Jackie Baillie. We rejoice in the fact that nowadays we adopt a much more constructive and positive attitude towards disability. We want to be an inclusive society.

The one point on which I might take issue with Jamie McGrigor was his description of the First Minister as observant and splendid. Most of us might think that he is rather myopic in certain directions.

In this debate, we are plotting a course for the years ahead. There were some very sound speeches. Nora Radcliffe spoke about agism, which not many members have done. Perhaps this morning's debate highlighted the fact that agism is a problem in our society to which we have not faced up.

Michael McMahon made some excellent points about special schools and the needs of children who are disadvantaged. I welcome the fact that he may advance his ideas either at the Education, Culture and Sport Committee or at a meeting of the whole Parliament.

Fiona Hyslop made—not for the first time—a valid point when she said that motions were being framed in a highly self-congratulatory way. She let herself down slightly by using management speak—with which we have become so familiar— despite the fact that Roseanna Cunningham had condemned that form of speaking. Fiona made some other valid points, although, as someone who in a previous existence was involved in the matter of the Iraqi students in Glasgow, I must say that the monopoly of blame did not lie entirely with the Glasgow population.

I agreed with much of what Kate MacLean said, such as her point that public appointments should be transparent. Lest there be any doubt on the matter, we use the word \"sex\" as a generic term to embrace gender and sexual orientation, thus demonstrating the inclusiveness that we have in the current Conservative party.

The most valid of Irene McGugan's points related to the funding of the Fair Play organisation. It will be interesting to know what the Executive decides about that.

Margaret Curran referred to the hard work that women had put into achieving the degree of equality that they have achieved. She might also have mentioned intellect, as that had something to do with it.

The debate has been very consensual. We would not have lodged our amendment unless we felt the need to sound a note of caution. If this debate is to be meaningful, it must be about real equality. Nobody should be disadvantaged because of their race, colour, gender or sexual orientation. Minorities must be protected, but we must recognise that the majority has rights, collectively and as individuals. Just as there are dangers in discrimination, there are also dangers in the so-called politically correct thinking that advocates positive discrimination. That creates an atmosphere of animosity and resentment that can generate the very prejudices that we want to remove from our society.

Parliament and every public body must make it quite clear that all our appointments and decisions are made purely on merit. We do not adhere to the old prejudices, nor do we adhere to the new prejudices of political correctness. That would be hypocrisy in the extreme and would demonstrate that some people in our society are more equal than others. That vital point must be borne in mind in our future deliberations.

Jamie McGrigor stressed that merit must be the sole criterion for public appointments. The Conservatives would have no difficulty were there to be a monopoly of public appointments of people from one particular race, gender or sexual orientation, provided that those appointments were made purely on merit. There is much to be

commended in what the Executive has said today. However, we feel that we must underline our point about merit, and that is the purpose of the Conservative amendment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2234E7P20C713248", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Equalities", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27178, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 685.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 685.0, "ID": 27178, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Aitken, Bill", "ID": 2234, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bill Aitken", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bill Aitken: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 790.0, "ContributionID": 713248, "EditedText": "It is a point worth making none the less. Laughter.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is a point worth making none the less. [Laughter.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2118E157P454C713253", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Equalities", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27178, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 685.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 685.0, "ID": 27178, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Quinan, Mr Lloyd", "ID": 2118, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lloyd Quinan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Quinan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 801.0, "ContributionID": 713253, "EditedText": "The minister just said that I made reference to sectarianism. I find it somewhat bizarre that someone as intelligent as the minister should assume that if someone refers to Northern Ireland they are referring to sectarianism. At no point during my speech did I make any reference to sectarianism. Will the minister withdraw the remark?", "EditedTextHTML": "The minister just said that I made reference to sectarianism. I find it somewhat bizarre that someone as intelligent as the minister should assume that if someone refers to Northern Ireland they are referring to sectarianism. At no point during my speech did I make any reference to sectarianism. Will the minister withdraw the remark?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C713254", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Equalities", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27178, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 685.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 685.0, "ID": 27178, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 803.0, "ContributionID": 713254, "EditedText": "At least three members of the Opposition made mention of sectarianism in the context of legislation. If Mr Quinan wishes me to withdraw the remark, so be it.", "EditedTextHTML": "At least three members of the Opposition made mention of sectarianism in the context of legislation. If Mr Quinan wishes me to withdraw the remark, so be it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C713256", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Equalities", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27178, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 685.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 685.0, "ID": 27178, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 807.0, "ContributionID": 713256, "EditedText": "I would be delighted to, Lloyd. Three of your colleagues referred to sectarianism. I am sorry to have cited you. Certainly Roseanna Cunningham referred to religious discrimination in her opening remarks. I think—Interruption.", "EditedTextHTML": "I would be delighted to, Lloyd. Three of your colleagues referred to sectarianism. I am sorry to have cited you. Certainly Roseanna Cunningham referred to religious discrimination in her opening remarks. I think—[Interruption.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713259", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Equalities", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27178, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 685.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 685.0, "ID": 27178, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 813.0, "ContributionID": 713259, "EditedText": "Members are standing talking during this debate. Please sit down.", "EditedTextHTML": "Members are standing talking during this debate. Please sit down.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713279", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27179, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 821.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 821.0, "ID": 27179, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 848.0, "ContributionID": 713279, "EditedText": "That the Parliament agrees the following designation of Lead Committee—", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament agrees the following designation of Lead Committee—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713265", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27179, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 821.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 821.0, "ID": 27179, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 827.0, "ContributionID": 713265, "EditedText": "There will be a division.", "EditedTextHTML": "There will be a division.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713283", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27179, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 821.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 821.0, "ID": 27179, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 854.0, "ContributionID": 713283, "EditedText": "There will be a division.", "EditedTextHTML": "There will be a division.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713267", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27179, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 821.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 821.0, "ID": 27179, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 830.0, "ContributionID": 713267, "EditedText": "The result of the division is: For 61, Against 48, Abstentions 1.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result of the division is: For 61, Against 48, Abstentions 1.

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" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713273", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27179, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 821.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 821.0, "ID": 27179, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 840.0, "ContributionID": 713273, "EditedText": "The result of the division is: For 62, Against 17, Abstentions 31.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result of the division is: For 62, Against 17, Abstentions 31.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713286", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27179, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 821.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 821.0, "ID": 27179, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 859.0, "ContributionID": 713286, "EditedText": "Amendment disagreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment disagreed to.

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" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713292", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27179, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 821.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 821.0, "ID": 27179, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 869.0, "ContributionID": 713292, "EditedText": "Amendment disagreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment disagreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713293", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27179, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 821.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 821.0, "ID": 27179, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 870.0, "ContributionID": 713293, "EditedText": "The sixth question is, that motion S1M-334 be agreed to. Are we agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "The sixth question is, that motion S1M-334 be agreed to. Are we agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713295", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27179, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 821.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 821.0, "ID": 27179, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 874.0, "ContributionID": 713295, "EditedText": "There will be a division.", "EditedTextHTML": "There will be a division.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713296", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27179, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 821.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 821.0, "ID": 27179, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 876.0, "ContributionID": 713296, "EditedText": "FOR Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)(LD)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)AGAINST Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)
(LD)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)

AGAINST

Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713297", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27179, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 821.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 821.0, "ID": 27179, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 877.0, "ContributionID": 713297, "EditedText": "The result of the division is: For 94, Against 16, Abstentions 0.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result of the division is: For 94, Against 16, Abstentions 0.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713299", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27179, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 821.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 821.0, "ID": 27179, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 880.0, "ContributionID": 713299, "EditedText": "That the Parliament welcomes the Scottish Executive's commitment, as set out in Making it Work Together: A Programme for Government, to promote equality of opportunity for all and to do that through an inclusive, phased and participative approach to the development of an equality strategy so ensuring that in developing policy and in service design and delivery concern for equality is at the heart of the matter.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament welcomes the Scottish Executive's commitment, as set out in Making it Work Together: A Programme for Government, to promote equality of opportunity for all and to do that through an inclusive, phased and participative approach to the development of an equality strategy so ensuring that in developing policy and in service design and delivery concern for equality is at the heart of the matter.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C713303", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Freight and Passenger Terminal (Fife)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27180, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 881.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 881.0, "ID": 27180, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bruce Crawford (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 887.0, "ContributionID": 713303, "EditedText": "I thank all the members who signed the motion for today's debate. Scotland is an exporting nation. Computers, telecommunications equipment, chemicals, whisky and fish and other food products carry the \"Made in Scotland\" label and directly support 120,000 jobs in Scotland. There was a time when we thought of our home market as being the 5 million people who live in Scotland, or even the 55 million in the United Kingdom. That is no longer the case: Europe, with a market of about 320 million people, is now our home market. Scotland exports more to France and Germany individually than it does to the USA and the Commonwealth countries combined. Our exports to the European Union represent 58 per cent of Scottish exports. Indeed, 78 per cent of manufactured exports from Fife are EU-bound. Those are remarkable statistics for a nation on the periphery of Europe. We succeed despite the lack of a fast, efficient route into mainland Europe—our marketplace. In its major study into transportation networks, the North Sea Commission said that \"the majority of Ro-Ro and Container traffic is routed to/from English ports. In this context, without significant investment in Ro-Ro and passenger facilities, Scotland will continue to suffer from peripherality.\" Is it not madness to be an exporting nation but to make it so difficult for our exporters to reach their primary market? We could do so much better. Fifty per cent of the traffic that passes through the ferry port of Hull is believed to have its origin or destination in Scotland. A large proportion of the journeys of the 250,000 passengers who use the Newcastle-Amsterdam ferry originate in Scotland. I would like the Parliament to think about the cost of the fuel to get goods and passengers to and from those ferries, the impact of those journeys on our roads system and the pollution that that additional traffic creates in our environment. A Scottish lorry driver also needs to think about time. More congestion means that Scottish lorry drivers may be unable to reach southern port destinations in a legal driving day, which adds to their costs. Add to that the plans to introduce motorway tolling—now plus VAT—all heaped on to Scottish exporters trying to operate competitively from a peripheral European nation. The motion supports the view that there is a market for a direct ferry service from Scotland to the heart of Europe, with more and more finished goods transported by rail to the quayside, and on to their markets in Europe. How do other small nations access key European markets by sea? The Danes, for example, are well served by Fredrikshavn, Arhus and Esbjerg. In Norway, more than 80 per cent of the country's imports and exports are transported by ship and/or ferry. However, it is about more than just goods. We need to look only at Shetland to see the huge economic and social benefits that can be had from an international sea link. Hotels, pubs and guest houses in Shetland are full of Scandinavians with plenty of money to spend. If it can do that for Shetland, imagine what sea access to the continent could do for the rest of Scotland. Opening up Scotland to tourists must be part of the agenda. Imagine a tourist thinking about coming to Scotland without first having to think about an eight-hour car journey. How much more attractive it would be if one could travel from Zeebrugge, Zeeland or the Eemshaven and sail into Rosyth by the next morning. The journey itself would be a holiday, part of the great Scottish adventure. The Scottish Tourist Board's figures show that, in 1998, more than 60,000 Dutch people made their way to Scotland by sea and tunnel. Imagine how that figure could be increased with a port at Rosyth. The reason that I brought this motion to the Parliament is to encourage action. A lot has been said over the past few years and encouraging noises have been made, but it is now time to move from the noises-off stage to getting passengers and freight on board. am aware that the minister has already confirmed that the Executive is responsible for those ferry and marine freight operations that start and finish in Scotland. I would therefore welcome her confirmation today that freight facilities grants would apply to a ferry terminal facility at Rosyth. We all know that Rosyth has good access to the motorway system and the potential for a direct rail link. It is also an excellent location for storage and logistics operations and has a port facility that is accessible, irrespective of the state of the tide. As far as the rail link is concerned, I am sure that the minister is more than aware of yesterday's announcement by Railtrack about its preparedness to invest in the rail link between Dunfermline and Stirling and the vital importance of that link to the future development of this exciting port opportunity, which would create hundreds of jobs and retain highly skilled engineers at Rosyth. I hope that the minister will be able to confirm that that will strengthen the case for substantial investment for this line from the next round of public transport fund announcements. Scottish Enterprise has chosen Rosyth as its preferred east coast port and has already identified a five-point action plan. I also ask the minister to report back to Parliament on the progress of that plan. I am sure that she is aware that Babcock Rosyth is at the forefront of developing the engineering capability to move containers from road to rail to ferry. That multimodal approach and the building of low-deck wagons at Rosyth will allow container traffic to pass through tunnels and bridges previously unsuitable for rail container traffic. Babcock Rosyth estimates that the new engineering enterprise will create significant numbers of jobs. Can I ask the minister to confirm that everything possible will be done to assist Babcock Rosyth to make the product a success? The Parliament should recognise the efforts of others: Fife Council, Fife Enterprise and other bodies. We need to provide the vital support, encouragement, energy and cajolement to ensure that this venture—of huge potential for Rosyth, Fife and Scotland—becomes a reality, not tomorrow but today.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank all the members who signed the motion for today's debate.

Scotland is an exporting nation. Computers, telecommunications equipment, chemicals, whisky and fish and other food products carry the \"Made in Scotland\" label and directly support 120,000 jobs in Scotland.

There was a time when we thought of our home market as being the 5 million people who live in Scotland, or even the 55 million in the United Kingdom. That is no longer the case: Europe, with a market of about 320 million people, is now our home market. Scotland exports more to France and Germany individually than it does to the USA and the Commonwealth countries combined.

Our exports to the European Union represent 58 per cent of Scottish exports. Indeed, 78 per cent of manufactured exports from Fife are EU-bound. Those are remarkable statistics for a nation on the periphery of Europe. We succeed despite the lack of a fast, efficient route into mainland Europe—our marketplace.

In its major study into transportation networks, the North Sea Commission said that

\"the majority of Ro-Ro and Container traffic is routed to/from English ports. In this context, without significant investment in Ro-Ro and passenger facilities, Scotland will continue to suffer from peripherality.\"

Is it not madness to be an exporting nation but to make it so difficult for our exporters to reach their primary market? We could do so much better.

Fifty per cent of the traffic that passes through the ferry port of Hull is believed to have its origin or destination in Scotland. A large proportion of the journeys of the 250,000 passengers who use the Newcastle-Amsterdam ferry originate in Scotland. I would like the Parliament to think about the cost of the fuel to get goods and passengers to and from those ferries, the impact of those journeys on our roads system and the pollution that that additional traffic creates in our environment.

A Scottish lorry driver also needs to think about time. More congestion means that Scottish lorry drivers may be unable to reach southern port destinations in a legal driving day, which adds to their costs. Add to that the plans to introduce motorway tolling—now plus VAT—all heaped on to Scottish exporters trying to operate competitively from a peripheral European nation. The motion supports the view that there is a market for a direct ferry service from Scotland to the heart of Europe, with more and more finished goods transported by rail to the quayside, and on to their markets in Europe.

How do other small nations access key European markets by sea? The Danes, for example, are well served by Fredrikshavn, Arhus and Esbjerg. In Norway, more than 80 per cent of the country's imports and exports are transported by ship and/or ferry. However, it is about more than just goods. We need to look only at Shetland to see the huge economic and social benefits that can be had from an international sea link. Hotels, pubs and guest houses in Shetland are full of Scandinavians with plenty of money to spend.

If it can do that for Shetland, imagine what sea access to the continent could do for the rest of Scotland. Opening up Scotland to tourists must be part of the agenda. Imagine a tourist thinking about coming to Scotland without first having to think about an eight-hour car journey. How much more attractive it would be if one could travel from Zeebrugge, Zeeland or the Eemshaven and sail into Rosyth by the next morning. The journey itself would be a holiday, part of the great Scottish adventure. The Scottish Tourist Board's figures show that, in 1998, more than 60,000 Dutch

people made their way to Scotland by sea and tunnel. Imagine how that figure could be increased with a port at Rosyth.

The reason that I brought this motion to the Parliament is to encourage action. A lot has been said over the past few years and encouraging noises have been made, but it is now time to move from the noises-off stage to getting passengers and freight on board. am aware that the minister has already confirmed that the Executive is responsible for those ferry and marine freight operations that start and finish in Scotland. I would therefore welcome her confirmation today that freight facilities grants would apply to a ferry terminal facility at Rosyth. We all know that Rosyth has good access to the motorway system and the potential for a direct rail link. It is also an excellent location for storage and logistics operations and has a port facility that is accessible, irrespective of the state of the tide.

As far as the rail link is concerned, I am sure that the minister is more than aware of yesterday's announcement by Railtrack about its preparedness to invest in the rail link between Dunfermline and Stirling and the vital importance of that link to the future development of this exciting port opportunity, which would create hundreds of jobs and retain highly skilled engineers at Rosyth. I hope that the minister will be able to confirm that that will strengthen the case for substantial investment for this line from the next round of public transport fund announcements.

Scottish Enterprise has chosen Rosyth as its preferred east coast port and has already identified a five-point action plan. I also ask the minister to report back to Parliament on the progress of that plan. I am sure that she is aware that Babcock Rosyth is at the forefront of developing the engineering capability to move containers from road to rail to ferry. That multimodal approach and the building of low-deck wagons at Rosyth will allow container traffic to pass through tunnels and bridges previously unsuitable for rail container traffic. Babcock Rosyth estimates that the new engineering enterprise will create significant numbers of jobs. Can I ask the minister to confirm that everything possible will be done to assist Babcock Rosyth to make the product a success?

The Parliament should recognise the efforts of others: Fife Council, Fife Enterprise and other bodies. We need to provide the vital support, encouragement, energy and cajolement to ensure that this venture—of huge potential for Rosyth, Fife and Scotland—becomes a reality, not tomorrow but today.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2207E94P262C713305", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Freight and Passenger Terminal (Fife)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27180, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 881.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 881.0, "ID": 27180, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Barrie, Scott", "ID": 2207, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dunfermline West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Scott Barrie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Scott Barrie (Dunfermline West) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 892.0, "ContributionID": 713305, "EditedText": "welcome Bruce Crawford's motion, allowing the discussion of the merits of Rosyth as an international freight and passenger ferry terminal. My constituency covers the whole of the former Rosyth Royal Naval dockyard, now split between Babcock Rosyth and Rosyth 2000. Both companies have proposals for a roll-on-roll-off ferry terminal, using the fact that they have the ability to provide 24-hour docking facilities, unlike a potential rival on the south of the Forth. It is an unfortunate fact of life that, in the past, the southern Fife economy was overly reliant on traditional industries and those relating to defence. It is clear that the change in economic activity and in the international situation has had a devastating effect on the local economy. No longer will the Rosyth port area be able to rely on Ministry of Defence contracts, as it once did. It is important for employment that the former dockyard area is used for other purposes. However, today's debate is not simply about creating jobs—although that is important—but about making economic sense. As the motion states, the majority of Scottish exports heading to continental Europe currently have to go through Hull. That involves a journey of several hundred miles from Scotland, when the establishment of a similar terminal at Rosyth would mean that journeys from most of Scotland would be in the region of tens of miles. Similarly, the nearest major passenger ferry terminal is at Newcastle, when Rosyth is obviously nearer. The Scottish Executive and the UK Government are anxious to reduce unnecessary travel by road—but having our nearest major freight terminal at Hull only increases road travel. Rosyth is well placed in the main arterial road network, a few miles off the M90 at the Forth road bridge, with good links north, south, east and even west, although that will be helped by the creation of a new bridge at Kincardine. Rosyth is also situated just off the main east coast rail network—the rail link is already in place. That could easily be opened up to further freight traffic, if minimum improvements were made to the junction south of Inverkeithing railway station. Fife Council and the former Fife Regional Council, in partnership with industry, have been pursuing the option of an international ferry terminal for several years. Indeed, in her role as a councillor, my neighbouring constituency MSP, Helen Eadie, has been harping on about the matter for as long as I can remember. As Bruce Crawford says, the ferry terminal is an issue on which we should make progress. Both the Scottish Executive and the Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions need to ensure that the proposals receive a sympathetic response. They would be enhanced if existing rail grants were extended to include coastal shipping. That would be a major step forward in making the Rosyth proposals reach fruition. As I have said before, there are two proposals on the table for Rosyth. I have no real opinion on which is best; the port provides an excellent opportunity. It is situated on the east coast of Scotland, has potential traffic as yet untapped and is far enough up the Firth of Forth not to be affected by tidal fluctuations. The location of an international freight and passenger terminal is not simply a Fife issue—it would provide a much needed resource for the whole of Scotland. Its creation would benefit all parts of Scotland and would make a strategic improvement to the Scottish transport infrastructure.", "EditedTextHTML": "welcome Bruce Crawford's motion, allowing the discussion of the merits of Rosyth as an international freight and passenger ferry terminal. My constituency covers the whole of the former Rosyth Royal Naval dockyard, now split between Babcock Rosyth and Rosyth 2000. Both companies have proposals for a roll-on-roll-off ferry terminal, using the fact that they have the ability to provide 24-hour docking facilities, unlike a potential rival on the south of the Forth.

It is an unfortunate fact of life that, in the past, the southern Fife economy was overly reliant on traditional industries and those relating to defence. It is clear that the change in economic activity and in the international situation has had a devastating effect on the local economy. No longer will the Rosyth port area be able to rely on Ministry of Defence contracts, as it once did. It is important for employment that the former dockyard area is used for other purposes. However, today's debate is not simply about creating jobs—although that is important—but about making economic sense.

As the motion states, the majority of Scottish exports heading to continental Europe currently have to go through Hull. That involves a journey of several hundred miles from Scotland, when the establishment of a similar terminal at Rosyth would mean that journeys from most of Scotland would be in the region of tens of miles. Similarly, the nearest major passenger ferry terminal is at Newcastle, when Rosyth is obviously nearer.

The Scottish Executive and the UK Government are anxious to reduce unnecessary travel by road—but having our nearest major freight terminal at Hull only increases road travel. Rosyth is well placed in the main arterial road network, a few miles off the M90 at the Forth road bridge, with good links north, south, east and even west, although that will be helped by the creation of a new bridge at Kincardine. Rosyth is also situated just off the main east coast rail network—the rail link is already in place. That could easily be opened up to further freight traffic, if minimum improvements were made to the junction south of Inverkeithing railway station.

Fife Council and the former Fife Regional Council, in partnership with industry, have been pursuing the option of an international ferry terminal for several years. Indeed, in her role as a councillor, my neighbouring constituency MSP, Helen Eadie, has been harping on about the

matter for as long as I can remember. As Bruce Crawford says, the ferry terminal is an issue on which we should make progress.

Both the Scottish Executive and the Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions need to ensure that the proposals receive a sympathetic response. They would be enhanced if existing rail grants were extended to include coastal shipping. That would be a major step forward in making the Rosyth proposals reach fruition.

As I have said before, there are two proposals on the table for Rosyth. I have no real opinion on which is best; the port provides an excellent opportunity. It is situated on the east coast of Scotland, has potential traffic as yet untapped and is far enough up the Firth of Forth not to be affected by tidal fluctuations. The location of an international freight and passenger terminal is not simply a Fife issue—it would provide a much needed resource for the whole of Scotland. Its creation would benefit all parts of Scotland and would make a strategic improvement to the Scottish transport infrastructure.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C713306", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Freight and Passenger Terminal (Fife)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27180, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 881.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 881.0, "ID": 27180, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Keith Raffan (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 895.0, "ContributionID": 713306, "EditedText": "I congratulate Mr Crawford on obtaining today's debate. I am sure that it is entirely a coincidence that he has managed to lodge the motion and obtain the debate a week before the Rosyth East council by-election. None the less, I am sure that—in the all-party spirit in the chamber today— he will agree that all parties have worked hard over recent years to bring about a European freight and passenger ferry terminal at Rosyth. Such a direct freight and passenger ferry service is—as some have called it—the missing link in Scotland's transport infrastructure. It would improve accessibility, increase trade and tourism, and—very importantly for Fife—create jobs among our constituents. It would also be profitable, and it is easy to see why. A quarter of a century ago, a third of Scotland's exports went to mainland Europe; now it is two thirds. Most of those exports go to the Benelux countries, as Mr Crawford said, and to France and Germany. Our export growth is higher than the United Kingdom average. We make 35 per cent of Europe's personal computers, and a large proportion of our electronics goods, as well as whisky, food and paper, are exported in containerised form. Scotland is an increasingly important tourist destination. The number of overseas visitors has doubled since 1982, and nearly a quarter of them come by sea, mainly from—again—the Benelux countries, France and Germany. If they come by sea, they come to either Hull or Dover. They then face a very long road journey. In fact, it is surprising the extent to which tourism from mainland Europe has increased without the benefit of a direct ferry link. They brave the congestion on our roads to get up to Scotland—to Edinburgh, the west and the Highlands. Despite the increase in exports and the increase in the tourist trade, our local economies have been missing out because most of the traffic is routed, as Mr Crawford said, through English ports. Roll- on-roll-off container traffic is the fastest growing sector for United Kingdom ports—it has gone up 84 per cent in the nine years between 1986 and 1995. English, not Scottish, ports have benefited. Of our container trade, 70 per cent goes through Liverpool, Middlesbrough, Southampton and Felixstowe. Nearly all our international trailer traffic—98 per cent—goes through either Dover or Hull. The Transport Research Institute at Napier University has estimated that a ferry service between Rosyth and mainland Europe would make a profit of at least £5.7 million a year, and probably considerably more. But if Rosyth is to be a successful ferry terminal port, it is important that we improve the links to it. I am glad that Mr Crawford mentioned Railtrack's announcement yesterday concerning the Stirling-Alloa- Dunfermline line, because reopening that line is potentially very important. Railtrack's commitment to such an east-west freight route could significantly boost the economy of the Mid Scotland part of the region that Mr Crawford and I both represent, so I warmly welcome that announcement. I hope that the minister will talk about measures to reduce the increasingly serious congestion on the roads leading up to the tolls on the Forth road bridge. I say that with some feeling, having been half an hour late for a debate in Dundee on Tuesday night because it had taken me an hour and a half to get from outside this chamber to the tolls on the bridge. Quite frankly, if that congestion continues or gets worse, it will undermine the attractiveness of having a ferry terminal at Rosyth. My party strongly supports a terminal at Rosyth. We are the second party on the council in Fife, with 21 seats—double the number of Mr Crawford's party. However, we are glad to have his support. Apart from providing an important transport link to mainland Europe for Scotland as a whole, it would provide a welcome boost to the economy of Fife.", "EditedTextHTML": "I congratulate Mr Crawford on obtaining today's debate. I am sure that it is entirely a coincidence that he has managed to lodge the motion and obtain the debate a week before the Rosyth East council by-election. None the less, I am sure that—in the all-party spirit in the chamber today— he will agree that all parties have worked hard over recent years to bring about a European freight and passenger ferry terminal at Rosyth.

Such a direct freight and passenger ferry service is—as some have called it—the missing link in Scotland's transport infrastructure. It would improve accessibility, increase trade and tourism, and—very importantly for Fife—create jobs among our constituents. It would also be profitable, and it is easy to see why. A quarter of a century ago, a third of Scotland's exports went to mainland Europe; now it is two thirds. Most of those exports go to the Benelux countries, as Mr Crawford said, and to France and Germany. Our export growth is higher than the United Kingdom average. We make 35 per cent of Europe's personal computers, and a large proportion of our electronics goods, as well as whisky, food and paper, are exported in containerised form.

Scotland is an increasingly important tourist destination. The number of overseas visitors has doubled since 1982, and nearly a quarter of them come by sea, mainly from—again—the Benelux countries, France and Germany. If they come by sea, they come to either Hull or Dover. They then face a very long road journey. In fact, it is surprising the extent to which tourism from mainland Europe has increased without the benefit of a direct ferry link. They brave the congestion on our roads to get up to Scotland—to Edinburgh, the west and the Highlands.

Despite the increase in exports and the increase in the tourist trade, our local economies have been missing out because most of the traffic is routed, as Mr Crawford said, through English ports. Roll- on-roll-off container traffic is the fastest growing sector for United Kingdom ports—it has gone up 84 per cent in the nine years between 1986 and 1995. English, not Scottish, ports have benefited. Of our container trade, 70 per cent goes through Liverpool, Middlesbrough, Southampton and Felixstowe. Nearly all our international trailer traffic—98 per cent—goes through either Dover or Hull.

The Transport Research Institute at Napier University has estimated that a ferry service between Rosyth and mainland Europe would make a profit of at least £5.7 million a year, and probably considerably more. But if Rosyth is to be a successful ferry terminal port, it is important that we improve the links to it. I am glad that Mr Crawford mentioned Railtrack's announcement yesterday concerning the Stirling-Alloa- Dunfermline line, because reopening that line is potentially very important. Railtrack's commitment to such an east-west freight route could significantly boost the economy of the Mid Scotland part of the region that Mr Crawford and I both represent, so I warmly welcome that announcement.

I hope that the minister will talk about measures to reduce the increasingly serious congestion on the roads leading up to the tolls on the Forth road bridge. I say that with some feeling, having been half an hour late for a debate in Dundee on Tuesday night because it had taken me an hour and a half to get from outside this chamber to the tolls on the bridge. Quite frankly, if that congestion continues or gets worse, it will undermine the attractiveness of having a ferry terminal at Rosyth.

My party strongly supports a terminal at Rosyth. We are the second party on the council in Fife, with 21 seats—double the number of Mr Crawford's party. However, we are glad to have his support. Apart from providing an important transport link to mainland Europe for Scotland as a whole, it would provide a welcome boost to the economy of Fife.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C713308", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Freight and Passenger Terminal (Fife)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27180, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 881.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 881.0, "ID": 27180, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 900.0, "ContributionID": 713308, "EditedText": "That is a political point.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is a political point.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2105E44P74C713309", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Freight and Passenger Terminal (Fife)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27180, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 881.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 881.0, "ID": 27180, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harding, Mr Keith", "ID": 2105, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Harding", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Harding: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 902.0, "ContributionID": 713309, "EditedText": "Please do not interrupt, Mr Raffan.A facility such as the one that is proposed for Rosyth would be a boon to the local economy and to the Scottish economy. Establishing the new terminal at Rosyth would provide long-term security of employment in a depressed area. It would also reduce the cost for tourists and exporters alike, who already face high fuel taxes and long travel times. I understand that the Scottish Executive would welcome the establishment of a ferry link to the continent, and I urge it to support this initiative and, in the words of the First Minister, \"find a Scottish solution to a Scottish problem.\"We support the motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "Please do not interrupt, Mr Raffan.

A facility such as the one that is proposed for Rosyth would be a boon to the local economy and to the Scottish economy. Establishing the new terminal at Rosyth would provide long-term security of employment in a depressed area. It would also reduce the cost for tourists and exporters alike, who already face high fuel taxes and long travel times.

I understand that the Scottish Executive would welcome the establishment of a ferry link to the continent, and I urge it to support this initiative and, in the words of the First Minister,

\"find a Scottish solution to a Scottish problem.\"

We support the motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C713317", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Freight and Passenger Terminal (Fife)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27180, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 881.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 881.0, "ID": 27180, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Murray Tosh (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 921.0, "ContributionID": 713317, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "

Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C713321", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Freight and Passenger Terminal (Fife)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27180, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 881.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 881.0, "ID": 27180, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 929.0, "ContributionID": 713321, "EditedText": "I am encouraged by the breadth of the minister's agenda. May I respectfully suggest that this rather small debate might be enhanced if the Executive agreed to make time available for a full debate? We have had only one relatively short debate on the roads review. There is a tremendous opportunity for us to have a full debate on the subject of Scotland's strategic transport links. I am sure that the Parliament would welcome that, and I hope that the minister can give some indication that she might promote such a debate.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am encouraged by the breadth of the minister's agenda. May I respectfully suggest that this rather small debate might be enhanced if the Executive agreed to make time available for a full debate? We have had only one relatively short debate on the roads review. There is a tremendous opportunity for us to have a full debate on the subject of Scotland's strategic transport links. I am sure that the Parliament would welcome that, and I hope that the minister can give some indication that she might promote such a debate.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C713323", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Freight and Passenger Terminal (Fife)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27180, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 881.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 881.0, "ID": 27180, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bruce Crawford: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 933.0, "ContributionID": 713323, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C713329", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Freight and Passenger Terminal (Fife)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27180, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 881.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 881.0, "ID": 27180, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bruce Crawford: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 945.0, "ContributionID": 713329, "EditedText": "On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I know that the Presiding Officer has already ruled on announcements being made without notice. As far as I understand it, we have just heard an announcement about some future project steering group of which we were completely unaware. It would have been courteous had the minister informed us about it beforehand. Can the minister explain that?", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I know that the Presiding Officer has already ruled on announcements being made without notice. As far as I understand it, we have just heard an announcement about some future project steering group of which we were completely unaware. It would have been courteous had the minister informed us about it beforehand. Can the minister explain that?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C713332", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Freight and Passenger Terminal (Fife)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27180, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 881.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 881.0, "ID": 27180, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 951.0, "ContributionID": 713332, "EditedText": "Yes, I heard what she said. I am simply not aware of what she is speaking about. I will ask her to clarify.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes, I heard what she said. I am simply not aware of what she is speaking about. I will ask her to clarify.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C713340", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Freight and Passenger Terminal (Fife)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27180, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 881.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 881.0, "ID": 27180, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 967.0, "ContributionID": 713340, "EditedText": "That concludes the debate. I thank members for staying behind and I apologise to those who were not called to speak.", "EditedTextHTML": "That concludes the debate. I thank members for staying behind and I apologise to those who were not called to speak.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C712876", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 4.0, "ContributionID": 712876, "EditedText": "Good morning. The first item of business is the non- Executive debate on motion S1M-327, in the name of Mr John Swinney, on the plight of Scottish pensioners, and amendments to that motion. In spite of the rather thin attendance in the chamber, I have a long list of members who have indicated their desire to speak in this debate. I realise that there have been some hold-ups on the railways this morning, so I shall be tolerant about those members who are not yet in their places. However, I appeal for short speeches from all members, including the openers from each party, so that I can fit in all those who want to speak. I call Alex Neil.", "EditedTextHTML": "Good morning. The first item of business is the non- Executive debate on motion S1M-327, in the name of Mr John Swinney, on the plight of Scottish pensioners, and amendments to that motion.

In spite of the rather thin attendance in the chamber, I have a long list of members who have indicated their desire to speak in this debate. I realise that there have been some hold-ups on the railways this morning, so I shall be tolerant about those members who are not yet in their places. However, I appeal for short speeches from all members, including the openers from each party, so that I can fit in all those who want to speak.

I call Alex Neil.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C712878", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 9.0, "ContributionID": 712878, "EditedText": "I ask Mr Neil to cast his mind back to 1979. Was it not the Wilson/Callaghan Government that decreased the value of the pension with respect to real-terms increases in the economy?", "EditedTextHTML": "I ask Mr Neil to cast his mind back to 1979. Was it not the Wilson/Callaghan Government that decreased the value of the pension with respect to real-terms increases in the economy?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C712879", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 11.0, "ContributionID": 712879, "EditedText": "That is right. I remind Mr Gallie that two years later the Tory Government broke the link between pensions and earnings. The single pension would be higher by £26 a week if the Tories had not broken that link—or if new Labour had restored it—so we will not be taking any lessons from the Tories on pensions.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is right. I remind Mr Gallie that two years later the Tory Government broke the link between pensions and earnings. The single pension would be higher by £26 a week if the Tories had not broken that link—or if new Labour had restored it—so we will not be taking any lessons from the Tories on pensions.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C712882", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 17.0, "ContributionID": 712882, "EditedText": "Does Alex Neil agree that the link between pensions and earnings was broken because an election promise was meant to ensure that pensions stayed ahead of increases in inflation?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does Alex Neil agree that the link between pensions and earnings was broken because an election promise was meant to ensure that pensions stayed ahead of increases in inflation?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C712883", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 19.0, "ContributionID": 712883, "EditedText": "That is twisting logic beyond belief. Phil has lost that point, so I will carry on. Both the Tories and new Labour have betrayed our pensioners, yet the money to give them a decent increase exists. For example, the 1p cut in the standard rate of income tax from next April that the Chancellor of the Exchequer announced will cost the Inland Revenue £3 billion. If that money had been spent on pensioners, it would have lifted the pension to £75 a week for a single pensioner and £119.50 for a pensioner couple. Surely that should have been a Labour Government's priority. It is bad enough that the Tories abolished the link with earnings, which cost single pensioners £26 a week and pensioner couples £41 a week, but it is a national disgrace that a Labour Government—a Labour Government—refuses to restore it, despite the fact that, according to Alistair Darling, the national insurance fund has a surplus of £5 billion. Labour cannot say that the money to give our pensioners a decent rise and to restore the link between pensions and earnings does not exist. That is what a real Labour Government would do.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is twisting logic beyond belief. Phil has lost that point, so I will carry on.

Both the Tories and new Labour have betrayed our pensioners, yet the money to give them a decent increase exists. For example, the 1p cut in the standard rate of income tax from next April that the Chancellor of the Exchequer announced will cost the Inland Revenue £3 billion. If that money had been spent on pensioners, it would have lifted the pension to £75 a week for a single pensioner and £119.50 for a pensioner couple. Surely that should have been a Labour Government's priority.

It is bad enough that the Tories abolished the link with earnings, which cost single pensioners £26 a week and pensioner couples £41 a week, but it is a national disgrace that a Labour Government—a Labour Government—refuses to restore it, despite the fact that, according to Alistair Darling, the national insurance fund has a surplus of £5 billion.

Labour cannot say that the money to give our pensioners a decent rise and to restore the link between pensions and earnings does not exist. That is what a real Labour Government would do.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C712885", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 23.0, "ContributionID": 712885, "EditedText": "Let us not encourage more interventions.", "EditedTextHTML": "Let us not encourage more interventions.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C712888", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 29.0, "ContributionID": 712888, "EditedText": "I agree with Mr Ewing.Our pensioners are among the poorest in Europe. The average German male pensioner gets £181 a week. The national association of senior civil servants has announced a survey that shows that while our pensioners get 15 per cent of average national earnings, pensioners in Belgium—a small country—get 60 per cent, in small Denmark 40 per cent, in small Greece 80 per cent and in tinier Luxembourg 83 per cent of average earnings. Our pensioners are the poor cousins of their European counterparts. This is not just about the level of pensions and the failure to restore the link with earnings. If the £10 Christmas bonus, which was introduced by Ted Heath in 1972, was upgraded to reflect what could be bought with £10 then, our pensioners would not get a £10 Christmas bonus, they would get a £126 Christmas bonus. The Government has got its priorities upside down when hundreds of millions of pounds are spent on a useless dome in London. Why not use that money to give our pensioners a millennium bonus that they have long deserved? The flat rate winter fuel payment of £100 is only one fifth of an average pensioner fuel bill. Scotland's warm deal is a raw deal for our pensioners. It is the poor relation of the home energy efficiency scheme in England and Wales, which gives pensioners £700 instead of £500 in grant. Unlike in Scotland, pensioners there qualify for up to £1,800 to put in gas central heating. In damper, colder Scotland, pensioners are denied the £1,800 that they can get in sunny Surrey. Given the level of grinding poverty among pensioners, we would have thought the Minister for Communities would make more than a passing reference to the plight of our pensioners in last week's debate on social justice. I agreed with one statement she made. She talked about 20 years of broken promises—I take it that she meant 17½ years of broken Tory promises and 2½ years of broken Labour promises. The broken promises have resulted in ourpensioners becoming increasingly worse off. They include abolition of the link between pensions and earnings and Labour's failure to restore it and the 1,000 per cent reduction in value of the Christmas bonus. Nearly 40 per cent of Scotland's pensioners are now living on or near the poverty line. Ending pensioner poverty cannot wait for another 20 years, as the Minister for Communities suggested last week. For people aged 60 and over who are approaching retirement—I will not look at you when I am making this point, Presiding Officer, and I certainly will not look at Phil Gallie— waiting another 20 years would condemn our elderly people to living the rest of their lives in poverty. Our pensioners do not need platitudes about what might happen in 20 years' time. They need action today. They need action to increase their pension by much more than a miserable 73p a week.", "EditedTextHTML": "I agree with Mr Ewing.

Our pensioners are among the poorest in Europe. The average German male pensioner gets £181 a week. The national association of senior civil servants has announced a survey that shows that while our pensioners get 15 per cent of average national earnings, pensioners in Belgium—a small country—get 60 per cent, in small Denmark 40 per cent, in small Greece 80 per cent and in tinier Luxembourg 83 per cent of average earnings. Our pensioners are the poor cousins of their European counterparts.

This is not just about the level of pensions and the failure to restore the link with earnings. If the £10 Christmas bonus, which was introduced by Ted Heath in 1972, was upgraded to reflect what could be bought with £10 then, our pensioners would not get a £10 Christmas bonus, they would get a £126 Christmas bonus.

The Government has got its priorities upside down when hundreds of millions of pounds are spent on a useless dome in London. Why not use that money to give our pensioners a millennium bonus that they have long deserved?

The flat rate winter fuel payment of £100 is only one fifth of an average pensioner fuel bill. Scotland's warm deal is a raw deal for our pensioners. It is the poor relation of the home energy efficiency scheme in England and Wales, which gives pensioners £700 instead of £500 in grant. Unlike in Scotland, pensioners there qualify for up to £1,800 to put in gas central heating. In damper, colder Scotland, pensioners are denied the £1,800 that they can get in sunny Surrey.

Given the level of grinding poverty among pensioners, we would have thought the Minister for Communities would make more than a passing reference to the plight of our pensioners in last week's debate on social justice. I agreed with one statement she made. She talked about 20 years of broken promises—I take it that she meant 17½ years of broken Tory promises and 2½ years of broken Labour promises.

The broken promises have resulted in our

pensioners becoming increasingly worse off. They include abolition of the link between pensions and earnings and Labour's failure to restore it and the 1,000 per cent reduction in value of the Christmas bonus. Nearly 40 per cent of Scotland's pensioners are now living on or near the poverty line.

Ending pensioner poverty cannot wait for another 20 years, as the Minister for Communities suggested last week. For people aged 60 and over who are approaching retirement—I will not look at you when I am making this point, Presiding Officer, and I certainly will not look at Phil Gallie— waiting another 20 years would condemn our elderly people to living the rest of their lives in poverty. Our pensioners do not need platitudes about what might happen in 20 years' time. They need action today. They need action to increase their pension by much more than a miserable 73p a week.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1970E66P288C712889", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNulty, Des", "ID": 1970, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Clydebank and Milngavie" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Des McNulty", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Des McNulty (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 31.0, "ContributionID": 712889, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C712893", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 40.0, "ContributionID": 712893, "EditedText": "Is it not the case that all the organisations that represent older people have made it clear to the Government that their two priorities are a decent pension and the reestablishment of the link with earnings? If Iain Gray is going to listen, why does he not listen to those calls and back them?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is it not the case that all the organisations that represent older people have made it clear to the Government that their two priorities are a decent pension and the reestablishment of the link with earnings? If Iain Gray is going to listen, why does he not listen to those calls and back them?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2033E106P139C712896", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gray, Iain", "ID": 2033, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Pentlands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Iain Gray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Iain Gray: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 46.0, "ContributionID": 712896, "EditedText": "As we have discussed, the financial resources that are going into community care will rise this year, next year and the year after. I accept the important point that Mrs Ewing makes: this debate is not just about the scale of resources, it is about how we spend them in order to get the maximum benefit for our older people. That will mean addressing bureaucracy and systems. People expect personal care delivered in a person-centred way, not in a bureaucratic way and they expect that care to be of a consistent, guaranteed standard. One of the royal commission's two main recommendations is that there should be a national care commission to ensure national standards of care, monitor trends, represent the consumer and encourage the development of better services. We already have in preparation specific Scottish legislation to meet those aims. As was promised in our programme for government, we will legislate for two new bodies. The first will register the social care work force, regulate its training and produce codes of conduct to provide assurances on quality. The second— the Scottish commission for the regulation of care—will regulate the care that is provided. For the first time ever, home care, delivered to so many of our older people, as well as residential care, will be regulated. All providers, including local authorities, will be covered and there will be national standards drafted from the perspective of the person using the service. The commission will be responsible for ensuring that all social care is provided to national standards. It will create a national database of care services and use that and demographic and resource data collected by the Scottish Executive to advise on trends into the future. It will have the power to investigate complaints about care services and report on them. It will advise us on changes needed to the care standards and provide advice on how those standards should be met and improved. National care standards are already under development, and the establishment of the commission will meet the royal commission's recommendation. Sir Stewart Sutherland's commission made two further recommendations regarding carers: better services for people with carers and a national support package. He recognised that many older people depend on informal carers and that many are themselves informal carers. What was recommended is exactly what we announced last week: a doubling of resources earmarked for carers services and setting in train new carers legislation. The royal commission specifically identified direct payment schemes whereby users are able to purchase care packages to match their needs as a way of increasing flexibility for older people and cutting through the bureaucracy. It recommends that older people who wish it, should have access to direct payments. We have commissioned research on the present use of direct payments and the barriers to them and we expect to implement that recommendation for older people next year. At least four recommendations of the royal commission demand for older people more joint working and more pooling of resources by local authorities and the national health service. We are already promoting those measures through implementation of the modernising community care action plan. However, the Minister for Health and Community Care and I agree that that is not happening quickly enough for our older people, as well as others who need those services. Following a seminar with local authority and health service leaders last month, we are setting up a joint future working group—chaired by me— by the end of the year, to begin work in January, to address a range of joint working and funding issues in community care. All of its work will be of direct relevance to older people and the recommendations of the commission. I want the group to do two further things that relate to the royal commission report. First, I want it to come to an agreement over what the balance should be between residential and home-based care; secondly—and crucially—I want it to address another point that received a passing reference from Mr Neil: charging for personal care delivered at home. As Sir Stewart Sutherland said, the present system is perceived as unfair and inconsistent and it can cost a good deal to administer. It is a perverse disincentive to local authorities that provide intensive packages of care to people at home and a real obstacle to services being provided jointly with the NHS, which of course does not charge. I am determined to address that. The joint future group will tackle that and come up with proposals in time for them to be considered during the next spending review, which will begin early in the new year, and will reach its conclusions by the autumn. Those are all measures that will benefit hundreds of thousands of older Scots. However, I am not forgetting the 8,000 or so people in care homes in Scotland who are contributing to the cost of their care at present. To benefit that group, Sir Stewart recommends changes to the funding system that would cost about £1.1 billion per annum for the UK, rising to £6 billion by the middle of the century, and suggests various intermediate steps along the way. As I have said, we want gradually to reduce the proportion of people in traditional care homes and to use the resources thus made available to support people more effectively at home. However, I know that there are real concerns about the present funding system for residential care. The needs of older people—including those funding their own care—and the way in which residential care is funded, will be key issues to resolve during the forthcoming spending review. I have taken the opportunity presented by today's debate to address one of the key priorities for older people in Scotland—long-term care. Building a Scotland where every older person matters means ensuring that all older people are financially secure and that they can lead active, independent and healthy lives. Alex Neil is right—it is not just about pensions. What a pity that he did not address any of the other issues relating to older people in Scotland. Alex Neil said that he was sending his words out to our pensioners, but words are not enough. We are taking action—now, next year and into the next century—to build a Scotland where every older person matters. The Executive will use the power of the Parliament to pursue relentlessly pensioners' issues. We will not use our pensioners to pursue the issue of the Scottish Parliament's powers. I move amendment S1M-327.1, to leave out from \"recognises\" to end and insert: \"notes the Executive's vision of a Scotland in which every older person matters and every person beyond working age has a decent quality of life, and welcomes the measures the Executive has already taken and has planned to support older people in line with its Programme for Government commitment to deliver person centred health and community care.\"", "EditedTextHTML": "As we have discussed, the financial resources that are going into community care will rise this year, next year and the year after. I accept the important point that Mrs Ewing makes: this debate is not just about the scale of resources, it is about how we spend them in order to get the maximum benefit for our older people. That will mean addressing bureaucracy and systems.

People expect personal care delivered in a person-centred way, not in a bureaucratic way and they expect that care to be of a consistent, guaranteed standard. One of the royal commission's two main recommendations is that there should be a national care commission to ensure national standards of care, monitor trends, represent the consumer and encourage the development of better services. We already have in preparation specific Scottish legislation to meet those aims.

As was promised in our programme for government, we will legislate for two new bodies. The first will register the social care work force, regulate its training and produce codes of conduct to provide assurances on quality. The second— the Scottish commission for the regulation of care—will regulate the care that is provided. For the first time ever, home care, delivered to so many of our older people, as well as residential care, will be regulated. All providers, including local authorities, will be covered and there will be national standards drafted from the perspective of the person using the service.

The commission will be responsible for ensuring that all social care is provided to national standards. It will create a national database of care services and use that and demographic and resource data collected by the Scottish Executive to advise on trends into the future. It will have the power to investigate complaints about care services and report on them. It will advise us on changes needed to the care standards and provide advice on how those standards should be met and improved. National care standards are already under development, and the establishment of the commission will meet the royal commission's recommendation.

Sir Stewart Sutherland's commission made two further recommendations regarding carers: better services for people with carers and a national support package. He recognised that many older people depend on informal carers and that many are themselves informal carers. What was

recommended is exactly what we announced last week: a doubling of resources earmarked for carers services and setting in train new carers legislation.

The royal commission specifically identified direct payment schemes whereby users are able to purchase care packages to match their needs as a way of increasing flexibility for older people and cutting through the bureaucracy. It recommends that older people who wish it, should have access to direct payments. We have commissioned research on the present use of direct payments and the barriers to them and we expect to implement that recommendation for older people next year.

At least four recommendations of the royal commission demand for older people more joint working and more pooling of resources by local authorities and the national health service. We are already promoting those measures through implementation of the modernising community care action plan. However, the Minister for Health and Community Care and I agree that that is not happening quickly enough for our older people, as well as others who need those services.

Following a seminar with local authority and health service leaders last month, we are setting up a joint future working group—chaired by me— by the end of the year, to begin work in January, to address a range of joint working and funding issues in community care. All of its work will be of direct relevance to older people and the recommendations of the commission.

I want the group to do two further things that relate to the royal commission report. First, I want it to come to an agreement over what the balance should be between residential and home-based care; secondly—and crucially—I want it to address another point that received a passing reference from Mr Neil: charging for personal care delivered at home.

As Sir Stewart Sutherland said, the present system is perceived as unfair and inconsistent and it can cost a good deal to administer. It is a perverse disincentive to local authorities that provide intensive packages of care to people at home and a real obstacle to services being provided jointly with the NHS, which of course does not charge. I am determined to address that. The joint future group will tackle that and come up with proposals in time for them to be considered during the next spending review, which will begin early in the new year, and will reach its conclusions by the autumn.

Those are all measures that will benefit hundreds of thousands of older Scots. However, I am not forgetting the 8,000 or so people in care homes in Scotland who are contributing to the cost of their care at present. To benefit that group, Sir Stewart recommends changes to the funding system that would cost about £1.1 billion per annum for the UK, rising to £6 billion by the middle of the century, and suggests various intermediate steps along the way.

As I have said, we want gradually to reduce the proportion of people in traditional care homes and to use the resources thus made available to support people more effectively at home. However, I know that there are real concerns about the present funding system for residential care. The needs of older people—including those funding their own care—and the way in which residential care is funded, will be key issues to resolve during the forthcoming spending review.

I have taken the opportunity presented by today's debate to address one of the key priorities for older people in Scotland—long-term care. Building a Scotland where every older person matters means ensuring that all older people are financially secure and that they can lead active, independent and healthy lives. Alex Neil is right—it is not just about pensions. What a pity that he did not address any of the other issues relating to older people in Scotland.

Alex Neil said that he was sending his words out to our pensioners, but words are not enough. We are taking action—now, next year and into the next century—to build a Scotland where every older person matters. The Executive will use the power of the Parliament to pursue relentlessly pensioners' issues. We will not use our pensioners to pursue the issue of the Scottish Parliament's powers.

I move amendment S1M-327.1, to leave out from \"recognises\" to end and insert:

\"notes the Executive's vision of a Scotland in which every older person matters and every person beyond working age has a decent quality of life, and welcomes the measures the Executive has already taken and has planned to support older people in line with its Programme for Government commitment to deliver person centred health and community care.\"

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6701144+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C712897", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 48.0, "ContributionID": 712897, "EditedText": "Thank you, Mr Gray, for concluding before the end of your time limit. Let us keep up the momentum.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you, Mr Gray, for concluding before the end of your time limit. Let us keep up the momentum.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6701144+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C712899", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 53.0, "ContributionID": 712899, "EditedText": "I agree with Mr Harding about annuities. The value of annuities has fallen by about 50 per cent in the past two or three years. However, he has not mentioned any commitment on the basic state retirement pension. At the pensioners rally last week, his colleague Alex Fergusson made a tremendous speech demanding a substantial increase in the pension for senior citizens.", "EditedTextHTML": "I agree with Mr Harding about annuities. The value of annuities has fallen by about 50 per cent in the past two or three years. However, he has not mentioned any commitment on the basic state retirement pension. At the pensioners rally last week, his colleague Alex Fergusson made a tremendous speech demanding a substantial increase in the pension for senior citizens.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6701144+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1962E35P56C712900", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mundell, David", "ID": 1962, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Mundell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David Mundell (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 55.0, "ContributionID": 712900, "EditedText": "No, he did not.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, he did not.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6701144+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1892E34P73C712901", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Fergusson, Alex", "ID": 1892, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Fergusson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Fergusson (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 57.0, "ContributionID": 712901, "EditedText": "On a point of order.", "EditedTextHTML": "

On a point of order.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C712902", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 59.0, "ContributionID": 712902, "EditedText": "Does Mr Harding agree with his colleague?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does Mr Harding agree with his colleague?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1892E34P73C712905", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Fergusson, Alex", "ID": 1892, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Fergusson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Fergusson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 65.0, "ContributionID": 712905, "EditedText": "On a point of order. Am I allowed to defend myself from what is an untrue statement?", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. Am I allowed to defend myself from what is an untrue statement?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1892E34P73C712907", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Fergusson, Alex", "ID": 1892, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Fergusson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Fergusson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 69.0, "ContributionID": 712907, "EditedText": "May I intervene?", "EditedTextHTML": "May I intervene?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2105E44P74C712908", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harding, Mr Keith", "ID": 2105, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Harding", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Harding: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 71.0, "ContributionID": 712908, "EditedText": "Please, yes.", "EditedTextHTML": "Please, yes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2105E44P74C712913", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harding, Mr Keith", "ID": 2105, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Harding", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Harding: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 81.0, "ContributionID": 712913, "EditedText": "Is it going to be a reasonable question?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is it going to be a reasonable question?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C712920", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 95.0, "ContributionID": 712920, "EditedText": "As far as the occupants of the chair are concerned, this debate has set a new record, as all three speakers have used less than their allotted time. That is a welcome change in practice. I call Robert Brown to speak for the Liberal Democrats.", "EditedTextHTML": "As far as the occupants of the chair are concerned, this debate has set a new record, as all three speakers have used less than their allotted time. That is a welcome change in practice. I call Robert Brown to speak for the Liberal Democrats.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2185E120P328C712923", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Brown, Robert", "ID": 2185, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robert Brown", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robert Brown: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 102.0, "ContributionID": 712923, "EditedText": "That is a very modest debating point. The fact is that effective action on this issue depends on effective liaison between London and Edinburgh with the various resources available across the whole of the UK. The SNP is fundamentally unable to appreciate or recognise that point. I am also a little surprised by the SNP's terminology. As the minister said, rightly, the debate should be about older people, as it says in the Executive amendment. Pensions are not the only issue, important though financial matters are. Whether or not older people receive pensions from the state is not the issue either. The debate should be about the value of individuals, who in this instance happen to be older people, in our society.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is a very modest debating point. The fact is that effective action on this issue depends on effective liaison between London and Edinburgh with the various resources available across the whole of the UK. The SNP is fundamentally unable to appreciate or recognise that point.

I am also a little surprised by the SNP's terminology. As the minister said, rightly, the debate should be about older people, as it says in the Executive amendment. Pensions are not the only issue, important though financial matters are. Whether or not older people receive pensions from the state is not the issue either. The debate should be about the value of individuals, who in this instance happen to be older people, in our society.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2185E120P328C712931", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Brown, Robert", "ID": 2185, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robert Brown", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robert Brown: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 118.0, "ContributionID": 712931, "EditedText": "No, thank you.The commitment announced by the Deputy Minister for Communities this morning to make progress on home care payments is a significant response, albeit only a beginning, to the Sutherland commission's report. Older people are a crucial part of our society. They do not want to be dependent, they want to play their full part, and it is the job of this Parliament to concentrate all its efforts in supporting them with all the resources and tools that we have at our disposal here in Scotland. I support Iain Gray's amendment.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, thank you.

The commitment announced by the Deputy Minister for Communities this morning to make progress on home care payments is a significant response, albeit only a beginning, to the Sutherland commission's report.

Older people are a crucial part of our society. They do not want to be dependent, they want to play their full part, and it is the job of this Parliament to concentrate all its efforts in supporting them with all the resources and tools that we have at our disposal here in Scotland.

I support Iain Gray's amendment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C712934", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 125.0, "ContributionID": 712934, "EditedText": "Please wind up.", "EditedTextHTML": "Please wind up.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2033E106P139C712943", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gray, Iain", "ID": 2033, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Pentlands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Iain Gray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Iain Gray: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 146.0, "ContributionID": 712943, "EditedText": "Mr Gibson raises an important point, but does he recognise that the chancellor made exactly the same point yesterday? The chancellor also said that, by co-ordinating action, we could do something about that situation.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Gibson raises an important point, but does he recognise that the chancellor made exactly the same point yesterday? The chancellor also said that, by co-ordinating action, we could do something about that situation.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2090E83P266C712945", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAllion, Mr John", "ID": 2090, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dundee East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John McAllion", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr John McAllion (Dundee East) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 151.0, "ContributionID": 712945, "EditedText": "During yesterday's time for reflection, the minister read out a list of people whom he thought the Parliament should keep at the forefront of concern. It included the homeless, rough sleepers, alcoholics, drug addicts, victims of crime and, incongruously, the elderly. It was as though we now accept as a matter of fact—in this market- driven, capitalist society—that to be old is to be at risk and vulnerable. That should worry everyone, because it is not the case in every society that to be old is to be at risk. The Government's publication \"Social Trends 28\", for 1998, contains a chapter that compares Britain with France, drawing together all the social statistics that Governments have at their disposal. It shows that expenditure per head on social protection—pensions, looking after the elderly and so on—in the UK is only 87 per cent of what it is in France. That has been the case for a long time, because we persistently underspend on the protection that we give to the vulnerable in our society. The study also shows that there are 100,000 more deaths every year in Britain than in France. Those statistics are backed up by statistics from elsewhere. During the 1997 general election, the Campaign for Warm Homes produced statistics for every constituency in the United Kingdom on the number of excess deaths each year between November and March arising from the cold. When I added up the total for all the Scottish constituencies, I found that more than 10,000 people died every winter in Scotland because of the cold and their inability to keep their homes warm. Today in the press, we see a report on health inequalities between Glasgow and other parts of the United Kingdom. It shows that in Shettleston, for example, 71 per cent of all recorded deaths were avoidable. How many of those were old people who died when they did not have to, because we did not do enough for them?", "EditedTextHTML": "During yesterday's time for reflection, the minister read out a list of people whom he thought the Parliament should keep at the forefront of concern. It included the homeless, rough sleepers, alcoholics, drug addicts, victims of crime and, incongruously, the elderly. It was as though we now accept as a matter of fact—in this market- driven, capitalist society—that to be old is to be at risk and vulnerable.

That should worry everyone, because it is not the case in every society that to be old is to be at risk. The Government's publication \"Social Trends 28\", for 1998, contains a chapter that compares Britain with France, drawing together all the social statistics that Governments have at their disposal. It shows that expenditure per head on social protection—pensions, looking after the elderly and so on—in the UK is only 87 per cent of what it is in France. That has been the case for a long time, because we persistently underspend on the protection that we give to the vulnerable in our society. The study also shows that there are 100,000 more deaths every year in Britain than in France.

Those statistics are backed up by statistics from elsewhere. During the 1997 general election, the Campaign for Warm Homes produced statistics for every constituency in the United Kingdom on the number of excess deaths each year between November and March arising from the cold. When I added up the total for all the Scottish constituencies, I found that more than 10,000 people died every winter in Scotland because of the cold and their inability to keep their homes warm. Today in the press, we see a report on health inequalities between Glasgow and other parts of the United Kingdom. It shows that in Shettleston, for example, 71 per cent of all recorded deaths were avoidable. How many of those were old people who died when they did not have to, because we did not do enough for them?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1970E66P288C712954", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNulty, Des", "ID": 1970, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Clydebank and Milngavie" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Des McNulty", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Des McNulty: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 171.0, "ContributionID": 712954, "EditedText": "I will not give way, but in a moment I shall comment on what Tommy Sheridan said. Those initiatives are substantial changes. Simply talking about other things that might be done if the money were available misses the point. The UK Government now spends more than £4 billion on Scottish pensioners; by 2001, the support will have risen by 25 per cent, or a further £1 billion, from what we inherited from the Conservative Administration. Real changes, real money and real benefits are being given to pensioners, and it is important that we should put that on record. Things still need to be done. I accept, and my party accepts, the need to increase the basic pension. We will achieve a significant increase in income levels in the coming years, building on the improvements that have already been made by Labour since 1997. That process needs to be supplemented by co-ordinated action to tackle such issues as benefits take-up, which John McAllion mentioned.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will not give way, but in a moment I shall comment on what Tommy Sheridan said.

Those initiatives are substantial changes. Simply talking about other things that might be done if the money were available misses the point. The UK Government now spends more than £4 billion on Scottish pensioners; by 2001, the support will have risen by 25 per cent, or a further £1 billion, from what we inherited from the Conservative Administration.

Real changes, real money and real benefits are being given to pensioners, and it is important that we should put that on record. Things still need to be done. I accept, and my party accepts, the need to increase the basic pension.

We will achieve a significant increase in income levels in the coming years, building on the improvements that have already been made by Labour since 1997. That process needs to be supplemented by co-ordinated action to tackle such issues as benefits take-up, which John McAllion mentioned.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1803E78P291C712958", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gillon, Karen", "ID": 1803, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Clydesdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Karen Gillon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Karen Gillon (Clydesdale) (Lab) rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 180.0, "ContributionID": 712958, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1803E78P291C712972", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gillon, Karen", "ID": 1803, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Clydesdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Karen Gillon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Karen Gillon (Clydesdale) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 215.0, "ContributionID": 712972, "EditedText": "I think that I am the youngest contributor to this debate, and I very much welcome the idea of the Parliament being able to address the needs of our older population. I believe that a society can be judged on how it treats its older people—people who have worked for their country and community, who in many cases have cared for their family for many years and who now need their family and their community to care for them. I would like to associate myself with the comments of Johann Lamont, Malcolm Chisholm and John McAllion. I am glad that Tricia Marwick has come in. I would like to tell her why I am not going to vote for the SNP motion—not simply because it is an SNP motion, but because it lies, it lies, it lies. I read John Swinney's motion before I came into the chamber, and it left a very bitter taste in my mouth. To try to hoodwink this country's older people into believing that neither the United Kingdom Government nor the Scottish Executive had taken any action—that is what the motion says—to help pensioners is going a step too far, even for the SNP. Yes, I would like to see the link restored between pensions and earnings, and I know that many of my colleagues on the Labour benches have fought for that for many years. I have stood beside pensioners and trade unionists fighting and arguing for it. We are now in a position in Government—not in Opposition—where I believe that we will be able to deliver it in future, and not just give people empty rhetoric. Let me address the motion, which claims that the Executive has taken no action to help pensioners. Cutting the price of fuel by slashing value added tax from 8 per cent to 5 per cent is not lack of action. To the pensioners in Forth in my constituency who were not able to afford their heating bills last year but will be able to afford them this year, a minimum pension guarantee that provides a minimum income for pensioners in the same way as a minimum income is provided for those in work is not lack of action. Providing free eye tests is not lack of action. A pensioner with bad eyes, who has suffered as a result of not getting an eye test, now knows that eye tests are free, appreciates that, and will go for one. A free TV licence is hardly lack of action for the older person who wants to be involved in the world out there, who wants to keep in touch, but was not able to because he or she was not able to afford the licence.", "EditedTextHTML": "I think that I am the youngest contributor to this debate, and I very much welcome the idea of the Parliament being able to address the needs of our older population. I believe that a society can be judged on how it treats its older people—people who have worked for their country and community, who in many cases have cared for their family for many years and who now need their family and their community to care for them. I would like to associate myself with the comments of Johann Lamont, Malcolm Chisholm and John McAllion.

I am glad that Tricia Marwick has come in. I would like to tell her why I am not going to vote for the SNP motion—not simply because it is an SNP motion, but because it lies, it lies, it lies. I read John Swinney's motion before I came into the chamber, and it left a very bitter taste in my mouth. To try to hoodwink this country's older people into believing that neither the United Kingdom Government nor the Scottish Executive had taken any action—that is what the motion says—to help pensioners is going a step too far, even for the SNP.

Yes, I would like to see the link restored between pensions and earnings, and I know that many of my colleagues on the Labour benches have fought for that for many years. I have stood beside pensioners and trade unionists fighting and arguing for it. We are now in a position in Government—not in Opposition—where I believe that we will be able to deliver it in future, and not just give people empty rhetoric.

Let me address the motion, which claims that the Executive has taken no action to help pensioners. Cutting the price of fuel by slashing value added tax from 8 per cent to 5 per cent is not lack of action. To the pensioners in Forth in my constituency who were not able to afford their heating bills last year but will be able to afford them this year, a minimum pension guarantee that provides a minimum income for pensioners in the same way as a minimum income is provided for those in work is not lack of action.

Providing free eye tests is not lack of action. A pensioner with bad eyes, who has suffered as a result of not getting an eye test, now knows that eye tests are free, appreciates that, and will go for one. A free TV licence is hardly lack of action for the older person who wants to be involved in the world out there, who wants to keep in touch, but

was not able to because he or she was not able to afford the licence.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1986E53P206C712980", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeil, Duncan", "ID": 1986, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Greenock and Inverclyde" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan McNeil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McNeil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 233.0, "ContributionID": 712980, "EditedText": "It is a shame.When we talk about poor pensioners, I see parents, relatives and friends, all on low pensions and without any additional income. That is my experience of poor pensioners. It is wrong to suggest that we should treat all pensioners the same. There is a difference between pensioners living on the margins and pensioners living in Marbella.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is a shame.

When we talk about poor pensioners, I see parents, relatives and friends, all on low pensions and without any additional income. That is my experience of poor pensioners. It is wrong to suggest that we should treat all pensioners the same. There is a difference between pensioners living on the margins and pensioners living in Marbella.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2118E157P454C712987", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Quinan, Mr Lloyd", "ID": 2118, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lloyd Quinan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Quinan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 247.0, "ContributionID": 712987, "EditedText": "What about the 75p?", "EditedTextHTML": "What about the 75p?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1865E219P509C712988", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "White, Sandra", "ID": 1865, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sandra White", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms White rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 249.0, "ContributionID": 712988, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C712990", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 253.0, "ContributionID": 712990, "EditedText": "Order.", "EditedTextHTML": "Order.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1986E53P206C712993", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeil, Duncan", "ID": 1986, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Greenock and Inverclyde" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan McNeil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McNeil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 259.0, "ContributionID": 712993, "EditedText": "Go on.", "EditedTextHTML": "Go on.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1876E194P490C712997", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Marwick, Tricia", "ID": 1876, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tricia Marwick", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tricia Marwick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 268.0, "ContributionID": 712997, "EditedText": "I am the youngest.", "EditedTextHTML": "

I am the youngest.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1826E199P351C713001", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Smith, Margaret", "ID": 1826, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Smith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Smith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 277.0, "ContributionID": 713001, "EditedText": "I do not have a problem with setting such a target. At present, four out of 10 houses in Scotland are failing fuel efficiency targets. Last week, the partnership set targets for a number of social problems.", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not have a problem with setting such a target. At present, four out of 10 houses in Scotland are failing fuel efficiency targets. Last week, the partnership set targets for a number of social problems.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1821E295P538C713017", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Mrs Margaret", "ID": 1821, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Moray" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Ewing rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 311.0, "ContributionID": 713017, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C713033", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 343.0, "ContributionID": 713033, "EditedText": "One of our promises was to restore that link.", "EditedTextHTML": "One of our promises was to restore that link.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2140E187P335C713039", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Rumbles, Mike", "ID": 2140, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Rumbles", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Rumbles: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 355.0, "ContributionID": 713039, "EditedText": "On a point of information, the Liberal Democrat group has yet to comment on joint ministerial committees. We will address that issue on Tuesday evening.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of information, the Liberal Democrat group has yet to comment on joint ministerial committees. We will address that issue on Tuesday evening.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C713046", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 369.0, "ContributionID": 713046, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1996E124P211C713055", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAveety, Mr Frank", "ID": 1996, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Shettleston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Local Government", "SpeakerName": "Frank McAveety", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Local Government (Mr Frank McAveety): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 388.0, "ContributionID": 713055, "EditedText": "Will Christine Grahame give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Christine Grahame give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1996E124P211C713059", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAveety, Mr Frank", "ID": 1996, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Shettleston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Local Government", "SpeakerName": "Frank McAveety", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McAveety: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 396.0, "ContributionID": 713059, "EditedText": "Does Christine Grahame not want to listen—", "EditedTextHTML": "Does Christine Grahame not want to listen—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713068", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27150, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 410.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 410.0, "ID": 27150, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 414.0, "ContributionID": 713068, "EditedText": "That the Parliament agrees the following programme of business—", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament agrees the following programme of business—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713069", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27150, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 410.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 410.0, "ID": 27150, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 415.0, "ContributionID": 713069, "EditedText": "Wednesday 8 December 1999", "EditedTextHTML": "Wednesday 8 December 1999

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713073", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27150, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 410.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 410.0, "ID": 27150, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 419.0, "ContributionID": 713073, "EditedText": "9.30 am Ministerial Statement on National Waste Strategy", "EditedTextHTML": "9.30 am Ministerial Statement on National Waste Strategy

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713075", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27150, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 410.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 410.0, "ID": 27150, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 421.0, "ContributionID": 713075, "EditedText": "10.30 am Debate on a motion on a Procedures Committee Report followed by, no later than 11.30 am Stage 1 Debate on the Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill followed by Business Motion", "EditedTextHTML": "10.30 am Debate on a motion on a Procedures Committee Report followed by, no later than 11.30 am Stage 1 Debate on the Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill followed by Business Motion

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713078", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27150, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 410.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 410.0, "ID": 27150, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 424.0, "ContributionID": 713078, "EditedText": "5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business—Debate on the subject of S1M-275 Nicola Sturgeon: Pollokshaws Sports Centre", "EditedTextHTML": "5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business—Debate on the subject of S1M-275 Nicola Sturgeon: Pollokshaws Sports Centre

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713080", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27150, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 410.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 410.0, "ID": 27150, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 426.0, "ContributionID": 713080, "EditedText": "9.30 am Debate on a motion on a Standards Committee report on Cross Party Groups", "EditedTextHTML": "9.30 am Debate on a motion on a Standards Committee report on Cross Party Groups

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713081", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27150, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 410.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 410.0, "ID": 27150, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 427.0, "ContributionID": 713081, "EditedText": "10.00 am Debate on draft 2000-2001 budget— level 2 figures", "EditedTextHTML": "10.00 am Debate on draft 2000-2001 budget— level 2 figures

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713085", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27150, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 410.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 410.0, "ID": 27150, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 431.0, "ContributionID": 713085, "EditedText": "9.30 am Non-Executive Business—Scottish National Party motion followed by Business Motion followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions", "EditedTextHTML": "9.30 am Non-Executive Business—Scottish National Party motion followed by Business Motion followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713087", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27150, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 410.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 410.0, "ID": 27150, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 433.0, "ContributionID": 713087, "EditedText": "3.00 pm Open Question Time followed by, no later than 3.15 pm Debate on Executive motion on Health", "EditedTextHTML": "3.00 pm Open Question Time followed by, no later than 3.15 pm Debate on Executive motion on Health

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713088", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27150, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 410.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 410.0, "ID": 27150, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 434.0, "ContributionID": 713088, "EditedText": "5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business—Mr McCabe.", "EditedTextHTML": "5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business—[Mr McCabe.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713095", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Lead Committee", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27151, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 438.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 438.0, "ID": 27151, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 444.0, "ContributionID": 713095, "EditedText": "Meeting adjourned at 12:35.", "EditedTextHTML": "Meeting adjourned at 12:35.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1892E34P73C713102", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27152, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 447.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27153, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 448.0, "QuestionHeading": "Compulsory Purchase", "QuestionHeadingID": 27154, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 451.0, "DisplayOrder": 451.0, "ID": 27154, "ParentID": 27153 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Fergusson, Alex", "ID": 1892, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Fergusson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Fergusson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 460.0, "ContributionID": 713102, "EditedText": "Given the adoption of the ECHR, will the Executive instruct district valuers to take into account the commercial payments for the erection of telecommunications masts when assessing payments to facilitate the erection of pylons in rural areas?", "EditedTextHTML": "Given the adoption of the ECHR, will the Executive instruct district valuers to take into account the commercial payments for the erection of telecommunications masts when assessing payments to facilitate the erection of pylons in rural areas?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C713105", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27152, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 447.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27153, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 448.0, "QuestionHeading": "Offender Rehabilitation", "QuestionHeadingID": 27155, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 464.0, "DisplayOrder": 464.0, "ID": 27155, "ParentID": 27153 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Justice (Angus MacKay): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 467.0, "ContributionID": 713105, "EditedText": "All prisons in Scotland offer drugs rehabilitation measures ranging from intensive rehabilitation programmes through to continuing support programmes for former users.", "EditedTextHTML": "All prisons in Scotland offer drugs rehabilitation measures ranging from intensive rehabilitation programmes through to continuing support programmes for former users.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1985E207P501C713113", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27152, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 447.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27153, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 448.0, "QuestionHeading": "Women's Aid Refuges", "QuestionHeadingID": 27157, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 484.0, "DisplayOrder": 484.0, "ID": 27157, "ParentID": 27153 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hamilton, Mr Duncan", "ID": 1985, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "4. Mr Duncan Hamilton (Highlands and Islands) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 485.0, "ContributionID": 713113, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive to detail the financial assistance available to women living in women's aid refuge homes. (S1O-770) The Deputy Minister for Communities (Jackie Baillie): The Scottish Executive and local authorities fund voluntary bodies that provide support and accommodation. The payment of social security benefits to individuals is the responsibility of the Benefits Agency.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive to detail the financial assistance available to women living in women's aid refuge homes. (S1O-770) The Deputy Minister for Communities (Jackie Baillie): The Scottish Executive and local authorities fund voluntary bodies that provide support and accommodation. The payment of social security benefits to individuals is the responsibility of the Benefits Agency.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C713116", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27152, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 447.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27153, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 448.0, "QuestionHeading": "Hepatitis C", "QuestionHeadingID": 27158, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 491.0, "DisplayOrder": 491.0, "ID": 27158, "ParentID": 27153 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "5. Mr Keith Raffan (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 492.0, "ContributionID": 713116, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive by how much the incidence of hepatitis C has increased in the past five years, how many of the cases are estimated to be as a result of drug injecting, what measures the Executive is taking to prevent the further spread of hepatitis C and what the cost implications are for the national health service in Scotland of any increase in the incidence of hepatitis C. (S1O-750) The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): It is estimated that there has been an increase in diagnosed cases from some per cent of diagnosed cases are injecting drug users. The Scottish Executive is awaiting a report on the implications of hepatitis C, including on how to prevent transmission.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive by how much the incidence of hepatitis C has increased in the past five years, how many of the cases are estimated to be as a result of drug injecting, what measures the Executive is taking to prevent the further spread of hepatitis C and what the cost implications are for the national health service in Scotland of any increase in the incidence of hepatitis C. (S1O-750) The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): It is estimated that there has been an increase in diagnosed cases from some per cent of diagnosed cases are injecting drug users. The Scottish Executive is awaiting a report on the implications of hepatitis C, including on how to prevent transmission.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C713121", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27152, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 447.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27153, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 448.0, "QuestionHeading": "Maternity Services (Greater Glasgow)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27159, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 498.0, "DisplayOrder": 498.0, "ID": 27159, "ParentID": 27153 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 503.0, "ContributionID": 713121, "EditedText": "The provision of health services to meet local needs in the greater Glasgow area is a matter for Greater Glasgow Health Board. That said, I understand that many people will be very concerned about the future of maternity services in that area and elsewhere in the country. I can assure members that I am firmly committed to providing the best possible quality of maternity services, which means not only maternity services in hospitals but services provided in the community. Many current changes in provision across the country reflect a shift in balance towards community provision, which improves the service provided for women.", "EditedTextHTML": "The provision of health services to meet local needs in the greater Glasgow area is a matter for Greater Glasgow Health Board. That said, I understand that many people will be very concerned about the future of maternity services in that area and elsewhere in the country. I can assure members that I am firmly committed to providing the best possible quality of maternity services, which means not only maternity services in hospitals but services provided in the community. Many current changes in provision across the country reflect a shift in balance towards community provision, which improves the service provided for women.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2033E106P139C713124", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27152, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 447.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27153, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 448.0, "QuestionHeading": "Frail Elderly People", "QuestionHeadingID": 27160, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 505.0, "DisplayOrder": 505.0, "ID": 27160, "ParentID": 27153 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gray, Iain", "ID": 2033, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Pentlands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Iain Gray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Iain Gray: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 510.0, "ContributionID": 713124, "EditedText": "Joint working of the kind to which Mr Muldoon refers is exactly the sort of thing that we want to see. There was another recent example of such joint working in Aberdeen, where the local authority and the health board worked together to spend resources where they could best be used. I know that recently there have been some problems with joint working in West Lothian. However, senior staff from my department have met health board and local authority officials; Mr Muldoon quite properly—as the local member— took an interest in those meetings. I am pleased that the difficulties have started to be overcome and that joint working is allowing issues to be moved forward.", "EditedTextHTML": "Joint working of the kind to which Mr Muldoon refers is exactly the sort of thing that we want to see. There was another recent example of such joint working in Aberdeen, where the local authority and the health board worked together to spend resources where they could best be used. I know that recently there have been some problems with joint working in West Lothian. However, senior staff from my department have met health board and local authority officials; Mr Muldoon quite properly—as the local member— took an interest in those meetings. I am pleased that the difficulties have started to be overcome and that joint working is allowing issues to be moved forward.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C713130", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27152, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 447.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27153, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 448.0, "QuestionHeading": "Housing Associations", "QuestionHeadingID": 27162, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 519.0, "DisplayOrder": 519.0, "ID": 27162, "ParentID": 27153 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 524.0, "ContributionID": 713130, "EditedText": "I know that Mr McAllion has a particular interest in whether there should be a size limit on community-based housing associations. In his constituency, the plan is to have an organisation that will manage 2,000 units. The largest number of units in Scotland is 3,000. The member will be able to take up the matter during committee consideration of the forthcoming housing bill. We expect the bill to be with the committee by the summer.", "EditedTextHTML": "I know that Mr McAllion has a particular interest in whether there should be a size limit on community-based housing associations. In his constituency, the plan is to have an organisation that will manage 2,000 units. The largest number of units in Scotland is 3,000. The member will be able to take up the matter during committee consideration of the forthcoming housing bill. We expect the bill to be with the committee by the summer.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713134", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27152, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 447.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27153, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 448.0, "QuestionHeading": "Consultative Steering Group Report", "QuestionHeadingID": 27163, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 526.0, "DisplayOrder": 526.0, "ID": 27163, "ParentID": 27153 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 533.0, "ContributionID": 713134, "EditedText": "Have we had the question?", "EditedTextHTML": "Have we had the question?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2167E79P155C713140", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27152, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 447.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27153, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 448.0, "QuestionHeading": "Pre-school Education", "QuestionHeadingID": 27164, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 539.0, "DisplayOrder": 539.0, "ID": 27164, "ParentID": 27153 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Peacock, Peter", "ID": 2167, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Peter Peacock", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Peter Peacock: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 546.0, "ContributionID": 713140, "EditedText": "We very much share Maureen Macmillan's concern about trying to find the right balance between male and female teachers at all levels of education. I am glad to say that the national training organisation for early years is about to commission work to see how we can promote further the employment of males in that sector, and encourage more people from ethnic minorities to participate in training. I noticed that reference was made at the weekend to a group at Robert Gordon University that was postulating the privatisation of some Scottish schools. I am happy to take this opportunity to say that the Executive has never considered privatising Scottish schools. It has no plans to do so and I cannot envisage any circumstances under which it ever would. The teachers to whom Maureen Macmillan refers will therefore continue to be employed in the public sector.", "EditedTextHTML": "We very much share Maureen Macmillan's concern about trying to find the right balance between male and female teachers at all levels of education. I am glad to say that the national training organisation for early years is about to commission work to see how we can promote further the employment of males in that sector, and encourage more people from ethnic minorities to participate in training.

I noticed that reference was made at the weekend to a group at Robert Gordon University that was postulating the privatisation of some Scottish schools. I am happy to take this opportunity to say that the Executive has never considered privatising Scottish schools. It has no plans to do so and I cannot envisage any circumstances under which it ever would. The teachers to whom Maureen Macmillan refers will therefore continue to be employed in the public sector.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2167E79P155C713142", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27152, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 447.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27153, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 448.0, "QuestionHeading": "School Closures (Cumbernauld)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27165, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 548.0, "DisplayOrder": 548.0, "ID": 27165, "ParentID": 27153 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Peacock, Peter", "ID": 2167, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Peter Peacock", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Children and Education (Peter Peacock): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 551.0, "ContributionID": 713142, "EditedText": "To date, we have received letters from 23 individuals.", "EditedTextHTML": "To date, we have received letters from 23 individuals.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2167E79P155C713144", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27152, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 447.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27153, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 448.0, "QuestionHeading": "School Closures (Cumbernauld)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27165, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 548.0, "DisplayOrder": 548.0, "ID": 27165, "ParentID": 27153 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Peacock, Peter", "ID": 2167, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Peter Peacock", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Peter Peacock: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 555.0, "ContributionID": 713144, "EditedText": "I am well aware of what is happening there, through the good work of my colleague, Cathie Craigie, who is the constituency member for the area. Applause. The matter is for the local council, which is currently considering the outcome of an open consultation process with parents. I urge Mr Wilson and his colleagues not to mislead parents into thinking that this Parliament has a direct role in this matter. I also urge parents in Cumbernauld not to allow themselves to be manipulated by people who see the issue simply in terms of political gain.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am well aware of what is happening there, through the good work of my colleague, Cathie Craigie, who is the constituency member for the area. [Applause.] The matter is for the local council, which is currently considering the outcome of an open consultation process with parents. I urge Mr Wilson and his colleagues not to mislead parents into thinking that this Parliament has a direct role in this matter. I also urge parents in Cumbernauld not to allow themselves to be manipulated by people who see the issue simply in terms of political gain.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C713147", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27152, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 447.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27153, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 448.0, "QuestionHeading": "School Closures (Cumbernauld)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27165, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 548.0, "DisplayOrder": 548.0, "ID": 27165, "ParentID": 27153 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 561.0, "ContributionID": 713147, "EditedText": "I therefore ask the minister whether he will join SNP members next week in receiving parents' signatures on the petition on this matter, not on a party basis, but for a cross- party, non-party, community-led campaign.", "EditedTextHTML": "I therefore ask the minister whether he will join SNP members next week in receiving parents' signatures on the petition on this matter, not on a party basis, but for a cross- party, non-party, community-led campaign.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1762E216P508C713149", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27152, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 447.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27153, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 448.0, "QuestionHeading": "Miscarriages (Greater Glasgow)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27166, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 565.0, "DisplayOrder": 565.0, "ID": 27166, "ParentID": 27153 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Elder, Dorothy-Grace", "ID": 1762, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder", "SpeakerDisplayName": "13. Dorothy-Grace Elder (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 566.0, "ContributionID": 713149, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will assist Greater Glasgow Health Board's public health department with funding for a fuller investigation of the high incidence of miscarriages it has reported in the area of Paterson's toxic dump, at Baillieston and Mount Vernon, Glasgow. (S1O-735) The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): That is a local matter and it is appropriate that studies are conducted and funded by the local health board. I understand that Greater Glasgow Health Board intends to carry out a full investigation into the matter.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will assist Greater Glasgow Health Board's public health department with funding for a fuller investigation of the high incidence of miscarriages it has reported in the area of Paterson's toxic dump, at Baillieston and Mount Vernon, Glasgow. (S1O-735) The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): That is a local matter and it is appropriate that studies are conducted and funded by the local health board. I understand that Greater Glasgow Health Board intends to carry out a full investigation into the matter.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1762E216P508C713150", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27152, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 447.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27153, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 448.0, "QuestionHeading": "Miscarriages (Greater Glasgow)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27166, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 565.0, "DisplayOrder": 565.0, "ID": 27166, "ParentID": 27153 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Elder, Dorothy-Grace", "ID": 1762, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 568.0, "ContributionID": 713150, "EditedText": "I thank the minister for her answer, but the health board requires more assistance. The investigation is a major probe and the health board has already had to fund another one. I think that the minister will agree that Greater Glasgow Health Board's public health department has plenty of brains, but not enough cash. Does the minister agree, especially in view of the fact that Baillieston and the east end of Glasgow have just been cited among the very worst health areas in the whole of Britain, that it is time that we ended their having toxic dumps, as well as the ill health caused by goodness knows what other reasons, poverty included—", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the minister for her answer, but the health board requires more assistance. The investigation is a major probe and the health board has already had to fund another one. I think that the minister will agree that Greater Glasgow Health Board's public health department has plenty of brains, but not enough cash.

Does the minister agree, especially in view of the fact that Baillieston and the east end of Glasgow have just been cited among the very worst health areas in the whole of Britain, that it is time that we ended their having toxic dumps, as well as the ill health caused by goodness knows what other reasons, poverty included—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713151", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27152, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 447.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27153, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 448.0, "QuestionHeading": "Miscarriages (Greater Glasgow)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27166, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 565.0, "DisplayOrder": 565.0, "ID": 27166, "ParentID": 27153 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 570.0, "ContributionID": 713151, "EditedText": "Where is the question?", "EditedTextHTML": "Where is the question?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1762E216P508C713152", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27152, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 447.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27153, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 448.0, "QuestionHeading": "Miscarriages (Greater Glasgow)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27166, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 565.0, "DisplayOrder": 565.0, "ID": 27166, "ParentID": 27153 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Elder, Dorothy-Grace", "ID": 1762, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 572.0, "ContributionID": 713152, "EditedText": "Does the Executive agree that it is totally unacceptable to have within the boundaries of any city a toxic dump that takes 500,000 tonnes of waste a year, including arsenic and cyanide—", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the Executive agree that it is totally unacceptable to have within the boundaries of any city a toxic dump that takes 500,000 tonnes of waste a year, including arsenic and cyanide—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713153", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27152, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 447.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27153, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 448.0, "QuestionHeading": "Miscarriages (Greater Glasgow)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27166, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 565.0, "DisplayOrder": 565.0, "ID": 27166, "ParentID": 27153 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 574.0, "ContributionID": 713153, "EditedText": "Order. I am sorry, but we must have a question. I remind members that the standing orders are quite clear that points of view cannot be expressed during question time.", "EditedTextHTML": "Order. I am sorry, but we must have a question. I remind members that the standing orders are quite clear that points of view cannot be expressed during question time.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C713158", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27152, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 447.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27153, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 448.0, "QuestionHeading": "Rural Challenge Funding", "QuestionHeadingID": 27168, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 585.0, "DisplayOrder": 585.0, "ID": 27168, "ParentID": 27153 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "15. George Lyon (Argyll and Bute) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 586.0, "ContributionID": 713158, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what steps are being taken to ensure that Here We Are Ltd of Cairndow will not lose any or all of its rural challenge funding as a result of the Scottish Executive's decision to call the project in for review. (S1O-748) The Minister for Rural Affairs (Ross Finnie):Subject to planning permission being granted,rural challenge funding is secure.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what steps are being taken to ensure that Here We Are Ltd of Cairndow will not lose any or all of its rural challenge funding as a result of the Scottish Executive's decision to call the project in for review. (S1O-748) The Minister for Rural Affairs (Ross Finnie):

Subject to planning permission being granted,

rural challenge funding is secure.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C713160", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27152, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 447.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27153, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 448.0, "QuestionHeading": "Rural Challenge Funding", "QuestionHeadingID": 27168, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 585.0, "DisplayOrder": 585.0, "ID": 27168, "ParentID": 27153 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ross Finnie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 590.0, "ContributionID": 713160, "EditedText": "I cannot give an absolute guarantee on the final determination of the inquiry but, as Mr Lyon is aware, the parties were asked to submit their submissions by 30 November. The submissions are being circulated and the parties have three weeks within which to respond. Therefore, it is up to the parties to meet the inquiry's timetable.", "EditedTextHTML": "I cannot give an absolute guarantee on the final determination of the inquiry but, as Mr Lyon is aware, the parties were asked to submit their submissions by 30 November. The submissions are being circulated and the parties have three weeks within which to respond. Therefore, it is up to the parties to meet the inquiry's timetable.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7326059+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2068E171P304C713162", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27152, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 447.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27153, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 448.0, "QuestionHeading": "Chancellor of the Exchequer (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27169, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 592.0, "DisplayOrder": 592.0, "ID": 27169, "ParentID": 27153 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stone, Jamie", "ID": 2068, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie Stone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Stone: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 595.0, "ContributionID": 713162, "EditedText": "I thank the First Minister for his courteous and enigmatic reply. I am nothing if not persistent. Given the great difficulties that farmers in the Highlands face because of the lack of suitable funding for the agricultural business improvement scheme, will the First Minister consider raising that matter— among other important matters—when next he meets the Chancellor of the Exchequer?", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the First Minister for his courteous and enigmatic reply.

I am nothing if not persistent. Given the great difficulties that farmers in the Highlands face because of the lack of suitable funding for the agricultural business improvement scheme, will the First Minister consider raising that matter— among other important matters—when next he meets the Chancellor of the Exchequer?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7326059+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C713177", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27174, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 629.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27175, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 630.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27176, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 631.0, "DisplayOrder": 631.0, "ID": 27176, "ParentID": 27175 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "1. Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 632.0, "ContributionID": 713177, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive when the First Minister last met the Secretary of State for Scotland and what issues they discussed. (S1O745)", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive when the First Minister last met the Secretary of State for Scotland and what issues they discussed. (S1O745)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:01:27.8453423+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1783E59P270C713206", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Equalities", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27178, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 685.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 685.0, "ID": 27178, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Baillie, Jackie", "ID": 1783, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumbarton" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Jackie Baillie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Jackie Baillie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 693.0, "ContributionID": 713206, "EditedText": "This is the first time that the Parliament has debated equality and the first opportunity that we have had to elaborate on how the Executive is approaching its work on equality. Today is the start of a much wider debate across all sections of Scottish society. I hope that that debate will stimulate and challenge all, and that everybody will participate in it. Scotland has a vibrant multicultural, multi-faith population, and is rich in diversity. However, our society has not been culturally inclusive or willing to ensure that diversity did not become an excuse for inequality of opportunity. If one is a woman, or is disabled, from a black or ethnic minority background, gay, lesbian, or old, or if one's culture is not part of the mainstream, inequality of opportunity is more often one's badge, and discrimination, harassment, exclusion and poor access to services are a likely legacy. If we needed any reminder of what that means for many people in Scotland, we should consider the evidence. The pay gap between men and women in Scotland stands at 78.5 per cent. It cannot be acceptable that we continue to have that pay disparity at the end of the century that began with clamour and demands for equal pay. It is unjustifiable that those with black and ethnic minority backgrounds experience higher unemployment and lower incomes than the white population. It is also unacceptable that those with disability have diminished access to the labour market and to full participation in it. Furthermore, it cannot be acceptable that so many groups face discrimination and exclusion. Women face real exclusion, but it is often invisible. Women can be barred from full participation in society because of their low relative incomes, their patterns of working, and their caring and domestic responsibilities, and because of discriminatory assumptions that are still made about their role and place in society. A lack of financial independence and, in some cases, violent and abusive relationships can also lead to exclusion. We know also that those in the gay, lesbian and transgender communities face exclusion because of their sexual orientation. Many experience rejection and alienation and live their lives never feeling that they are able to participate fully. Young people experience homophobic bullying at school and often suffer in silence, unable to confide in family and friends. Others are forced to leave home because their families have found their sexuality unacceptable. Those with a disability will tell us that trying to live and work in a society that is not structured to enable their participation is soul destroying and frustrating, and that is unacceptable. Just last week, I read in the report, \"Experiences of Social Exclusion in Scotland\", comments by respondents from black and ethnic minority communities. They stated that they \"felt that they had been excluded by a society which was geared towards the attitudes and needs of the white majority\". They recounted instances of being verbally attacked because of their ethnic origin. They said: \"These attacks tended to question their right to exist in Scottish society\". We know that racial harassment, racial attacks and racial discrimination are experienced by people in Scotland every day. That is why the Executive is determined to make advances on the issue of equal opportunities and why we are advocating the development of a robust equality strategy. The Executive has consistently stated that it wants a more just and inclusive Scotland, but we cannot achieve that objective if we do not address the issues of inequality in our society. This Parliament endorsed the consultative steering group recommendation that equality should be an underpinning principle of the Parliament in all its work. The Executive has set about its work on equality with commitment and determination. It is a major task, and one that will not be completed overnight. The process of changing attitudes and mindsets takes time and is a responsibility for us all—not just the Government, not just politicians and not just the equality agencies and interests, but all of us. Our approach to delivering on equality must be one of partnership, and that is the basis on which I bring the motion before the chamber today. Last night, the First Minister gave an address at the Equal Opportunities Commission launch of the mainstreaming checklist for MSPs. In his address, he identified three requirements for the successful development of the equality agenda. The first is the need to affirm the Executive's commitment at the highest level, the second is the need to put in place structures to deliver equality, and the third is the need to develop a robust strategy. Let me say a little about each of those needs. The First Minister and the Executive are firmly and publicly committed to putting equality at the heart of policy making, and are determined that mainstreaming and the promotion of equal opportunities will be key features of our work. The programme for government reaffirmed the Executive's commitment to promoting equality of opportunity. At the end of September, I gave a commitment to the Equal Opportunities Committee that I would go back and outline the progress that we had made, and I fully intend to do that. Several ministers have pledged the Executive's collective commitment to equality and to starting the process to achieve it. As members know, equality is one of the four key principles of the Parliament, guiding our operations and our organisation. The Equal Opportunities Committee is one of the eight mandatory committees and is already making headway in its work under the convenership of Kate MacLean. Although achieving equality in this Parliament is a valuable outcome in itself, it has the added value of stimulating interest, increasing expectations and raising the profile of equality issues in the new Scotland. As pledged, the Executive has established an equality unit in the Executive secretariat, at the very centre of our structure. The unit has three main tasks. First, it will act as a single point for advice and liaison in the Executive. Secondly, it will take the lead on mainstreaming equality in the work of the Executive, to put equality at the heart of all policy development and service design and delivery. Thirdly, the unit will actively pursue the promotion of equal opportunities. We see mainstreaming as the key task because, as the EOC's document, \"Questions on Mainstreaming\", states, \"it puts people, and their diverse needs and experiences at the heart of policy making. It leads to better government. As a process it tackles the structures in society which contribute to or sustain discrimination and disadvantage and the application of a mainstreaming approach can avoid the adoption of policies and programmes which replicate discrimination and exacerbate existing inequalities.\" The pursuit of mainstreaming and the focus on changing culture and attitudes require a particular strategic approach. The development of the equality agenda in Scotland will help to create fundamental cultural change and a deep-rooted commitment to equal opportunities for all. The evolution of an effective programme for the Scottish Executive requires a partnership approach with all interests, both internal and external. I propose that there be a phased approach to the Scottish Executive's strategy on equality. The initial phase will run from December to April 2000, and is concerned with establishing the framework for work on equality. In that phase, the emphasis is on consultation and dialogue. The ability to achieve our objective of mainstreaming requires all interests to have shared ownership of the project, and that cannot come about without detailed dialogue and consultation. I see that David McLetchie started the dialogue outside and continued it as he came into the chamber. Because detailed discussion is required, there will be a programme of widespread consultation, culminating in a report to Parliament in April 2000, and annual reports thereafter. That will provide Parliament with the opportunity to review the development of the equality strategy and to monitor progress. This speech will form the basis of our consultation. In addition to the mainstreaming work that we will take forward, the Executive expects work to be done on establishing and improving baseline information and statistics, developing performance management frameworks, and developing and building on internal and external equality networks, consultative mechanisms and communication strategies. We also expect to look at ways of disseminating good practice. Our commitment to equality has been on-going since July, and time does not permit me to elaborate on all the initiatives that have been undertaken, but I will provide members with a flavour of them: the £8 million package that has been announced, to address domestic violence; the £2.4 million given to finance work in ethnic minority communities as part of our social inclusion programme; and the improved provision for child care. Last month, we announced our firm commitment to repeal section 2A of the Local Government Act 1986. Recently, we have pursued work with young and old through the millennium volunteers project and the giving age initiative. The Executive has just published our groundbreaking report, \"Social Justice …a Scotland where everyone matters\". The report is about establishing social justice and equality of opportunity as the hallmark of Scottish society and politics. It is about working together to achieve a Scotland where everyone matters. The report \"Experiences of Social Exclusion in Scotland\", to which I referred earlier, set out in graphic detail the many forms of social injustice that affect our society. It cuts across all kinds of people in all kinds of communities and in all kinds of different ways. The report spells it out clearly that we cannot simply treat Scotland's people as a uniform group, and that a multi-sectoral approach is needed. That accords with our cross-cutting approach, which the Executive is using to tackle social inclusion, and will also be the hallmark of the equality unit. We have given a clear commitment to improve the level of representation of women, black and ethnic minority people, and disabled people in public appointments. Although significant work has already been undertaken to address the current imbalance, my ministerial colleagues and I recognise that further work needs to be done to attract more candidates from under-represented areas of society. That is why currently we are reviewing systems for appointment and have set ourselves challenging targets. My colleague Jack McConnell has responsibility for the overall system of public appointments, and will be addressing that matter in a statement shortly. We also recognise the importance of improving our consultation mechanisms with appropriate bodies in the field. The Women in Scotland consultative forum, chaired at ministerial level, was set up more than two years ago; the race equality advisory forum has been established and held its first meeting last week. Iain Gray and I cochaired a half-day seminar to identify issues of concern for disabled people. As we identify the areas of concern, we will identify appropriate ways to consult and actions that can be taken forward. We find ourselves in a significant climate of change. We are not alone in seeing the need to increase the profile of equal opportunities. The UK Government has underlined its commitment to tackling inequality. The Race Relations (Amendment) Bill has been announced and the report of the disability task force is imminent. Last week, the European Commission produced its proposals to tackle discrimination, under the new powers of the Amsterdam treaty. The proposals cover a wide range of issues: racial discrimination in employment; social protection; education; and access to goods and services. The Commission also proposed an action plan for spreading best practice. That is the start of a lengthy process, but I am heartened by those positive proposals from the Commission and the breadth of grounds of employment discrimination that it intends to tackle. We are beginning to witness movement at all levels of government on equality issues. That is to be welcomed. In Scotland, we have an opportunity to craft something unique and at the cutting edge. We have an opportunity to lead the field. We are a new Parliament and a new Executive. For the first time, we have the chance to develop a cohesive approach to equality work through the strategically placed equality unit. We do not have any precedents; we can make our own blueprint and map our own route. By adopting the motion today and entering into meaningful dialogue, we shall create the opportunity to scope an effective programme for equality into the next century. I move,That the Parliament welcomes the Scottish Executive's commitment, as set out in Making it Work Together: A Programme for Government, to promote equality of opportunity for all and to do that through an inclusive, phased and participative approach to the development of an equality strategy so ensuring that in developing policy and in service design and delivery concern for equality is at the heart of the matter.", "EditedTextHTML": "This is the first time that the Parliament has debated equality and the first opportunity that we have had to elaborate on how the Executive is approaching its work on equality. Today is the start of a much wider debate across all sections of Scottish society. I hope that that debate will stimulate and challenge all, and that everybody will participate in it.

Scotland has a vibrant multicultural, multi-faith population, and is rich in diversity. However, our society has not been culturally inclusive or willing to ensure that diversity did not become an excuse for inequality of opportunity. If one is a woman, or is disabled, from a black or ethnic minority background, gay, lesbian, or old, or if one's culture is not part of the mainstream, inequality of opportunity is more often one's badge, and discrimination, harassment, exclusion and poor access to services are a likely legacy.

If we needed any reminder of what that means for many people in Scotland, we should consider the evidence. The pay gap between men and women in Scotland stands at 78.5 per cent. It cannot be acceptable that we continue to have that pay disparity at the end of the century that began with clamour and demands for equal pay. It is unjustifiable that those with black and ethnic minority backgrounds experience higher unemployment and lower incomes than the white population. It is also unacceptable that those with disability have diminished access to the labour market and to full participation in it.

Furthermore, it cannot be acceptable that so many groups face discrimination and exclusion. Women face real exclusion, but it is often invisible. Women can be barred from full participation in society because of their low relative incomes, their patterns of working, and their caring and domestic responsibilities, and because of discriminatory assumptions that are still made about their role and place in society. A lack of financial independence and, in some cases, violent and abusive relationships can also lead to exclusion.

We know also that those in the gay, lesbian and transgender communities face exclusion because of their sexual orientation. Many experience rejection and alienation and live their lives never feeling that they are able to participate fully. Young people experience homophobic bullying at school and often suffer in silence, unable to confide in family and friends. Others are forced to leave home because their families have found their sexuality unacceptable.

Those with a disability will tell us that trying to live and work in a society that is not structured to enable their participation is soul destroying and frustrating, and that is unacceptable.

Just last week, I read in the report, \"Experiences of Social Exclusion in Scotland\", comments by respondents from black and ethnic minority communities. They stated that they

\"felt that they had been excluded by a society which was geared towards the attitudes and needs of the white majority\".

They recounted instances of being verbally attacked because of their ethnic origin. They said:

\"These attacks tended to question their right to exist in Scottish society\".

We know that racial harassment, racial attacks and racial discrimination are experienced by people in Scotland every day. That is why the Executive is determined to make advances on the issue of equal opportunities and why we are advocating the development of a robust equality strategy. The Executive has consistently stated that it wants a more just and inclusive Scotland, but we cannot achieve that objective if we do not address the issues of inequality in our society.

This Parliament endorsed the consultative steering group recommendation that equality should be an underpinning principle of the Parliament in all its work. The Executive has set about its work on equality with commitment and determination. It is a major task, and one that will not be completed overnight. The process of changing attitudes and mindsets takes time and is a responsibility for us all—not just the Government, not just politicians and not just the equality agencies and interests, but all of us.

Our approach to delivering on equality must be one of partnership, and that is the basis on which I bring the motion before the chamber today. Last night, the First Minister gave an address at the Equal Opportunities Commission launch of the mainstreaming checklist for MSPs. In his address, he identified three requirements for the successful development of the equality agenda. The first is the need to affirm the Executive's commitment at

the highest level, the second is the need to put in place structures to deliver equality, and the third is the need to develop a robust strategy.

Let me say a little about each of those needs. The First Minister and the Executive are firmly and publicly committed to putting equality at the heart of policy making, and are determined that mainstreaming and the promotion of equal opportunities will be key features of our work. The programme for government reaffirmed the Executive's commitment to promoting equality of opportunity. At the end of September, I gave a commitment to the Equal Opportunities Committee that I would go back and outline the progress that we had made, and I fully intend to do that. Several ministers have pledged the Executive's collective commitment to equality and to starting the process to achieve it.

As members know, equality is one of the four key principles of the Parliament, guiding our operations and our organisation. The Equal Opportunities Committee is one of the eight mandatory committees and is already making headway in its work under the convenership of Kate MacLean. Although achieving equality in this Parliament is a valuable outcome in itself, it has the added value of stimulating interest, increasing expectations and raising the profile of equality issues in the new Scotland.

As pledged, the Executive has established an equality unit in the Executive secretariat, at the very centre of our structure. The unit has three main tasks. First, it will act as a single point for advice and liaison in the Executive. Secondly, it will take the lead on mainstreaming equality in the work of the Executive, to put equality at the heart of all policy development and service design and delivery. Thirdly, the unit will actively pursue the promotion of equal opportunities.

We see mainstreaming as the key task because, as the EOC's document, \"Questions on Mainstreaming\", states,

\"it puts people, and their diverse needs and experiences at the heart of policy making. It leads to better government. As a process it tackles the structures in society which contribute to or sustain discrimination and disadvantage and the application of a mainstreaming approach can avoid the adoption of policies and programmes which replicate discrimination and exacerbate existing inequalities.\"

The pursuit of mainstreaming and the focus on changing culture and attitudes require a particular strategic approach. The development of the equality agenda in Scotland will help to create fundamental cultural change and a deep-rooted commitment to equal opportunities for all. The evolution of an effective programme for the Scottish Executive requires a partnership approach with all interests, both internal and external. I propose that there be a phased approach to the Scottish Executive's strategy on equality.

The initial phase will run from December to April 2000, and is concerned with establishing the framework for work on equality. In that phase, the emphasis is on consultation and dialogue. The ability to achieve our objective of mainstreaming requires all interests to have shared ownership of the project, and that cannot come about without detailed dialogue and consultation.

I see that David McLetchie started the dialogue outside and continued it as he came into the chamber.

Because detailed discussion is required, there will be a programme of widespread consultation, culminating in a report to Parliament in April 2000, and annual reports thereafter. That will provide Parliament with the opportunity to review the development of the equality strategy and to monitor progress.

This speech will form the basis of our consultation. In addition to the mainstreaming work that we will take forward, the Executive expects work to be done on establishing and improving baseline information and statistics, developing performance management frameworks, and developing and building on internal and external equality networks, consultative mechanisms and communication strategies. We also expect to look at ways of disseminating good practice.

Our commitment to equality has been on-going since July, and time does not permit me to elaborate on all the initiatives that have been undertaken, but I will provide members with a flavour of them: the £8 million package that has been announced, to address domestic violence; the £2.4 million given to finance work in ethnic minority communities as part of our social inclusion programme; and the improved provision for child care.

Last month, we announced our firm commitment to repeal section 2A of the Local Government Act 1986. Recently, we have pursued work with young and old through the millennium volunteers project and the giving age initiative. The Executive has just published our groundbreaking report, \"Social Justice …a Scotland where everyone matters\". The report is about establishing social justice and equality of opportunity as the hallmark of Scottish society and politics. It is about working together to achieve a Scotland where everyone matters.

The report \"Experiences of Social Exclusion in Scotland\", to which I referred earlier, set out in graphic detail the many forms of social injustice that affect our society. It cuts across all kinds of people in all kinds of communities and in all kinds of different ways. The report spells it out clearly

that we cannot simply treat Scotland's people as a uniform group, and that a multi-sectoral approach is needed. That accords with our cross-cutting approach, which the Executive is using to tackle social inclusion, and will also be the hallmark of the equality unit.

We have given a clear commitment to improve the level of representation of women, black and ethnic minority people, and disabled people in public appointments. Although significant work has already been undertaken to address the current imbalance, my ministerial colleagues and I recognise that further work needs to be done to attract more candidates from under-represented areas of society. That is why currently we are reviewing systems for appointment and have set ourselves challenging targets. My colleague Jack McConnell has responsibility for the overall system of public appointments, and will be addressing that matter in a statement shortly.

We also recognise the importance of improving our consultation mechanisms with appropriate bodies in the field. The Women in Scotland consultative forum, chaired at ministerial level, was set up more than two years ago; the race equality advisory forum has been established and held its first meeting last week. Iain Gray and I cochaired a half-day seminar to identify issues of concern for disabled people. As we identify the areas of concern, we will identify appropriate ways to consult and actions that can be taken forward.

We find ourselves in a significant climate of change. We are not alone in seeing the need to increase the profile of equal opportunities. The UK Government has underlined its commitment to tackling inequality. The Race Relations (Amendment) Bill has been announced and the report of the disability task force is imminent.

Last week, the European Commission produced its proposals to tackle discrimination, under the new powers of the Amsterdam treaty. The proposals cover a wide range of issues: racial discrimination in employment; social protection; education; and access to goods and services. The Commission also proposed an action plan for spreading best practice. That is the start of a lengthy process, but I am heartened by those positive proposals from the Commission and the breadth of grounds of employment discrimination that it intends to tackle.

We are beginning to witness movement at all levels of government on equality issues. That is to be welcomed.

In Scotland, we have an opportunity to craft something unique and at the cutting edge. We have an opportunity to lead the field. We are a new Parliament and a new Executive. For the first time, we have the chance to develop a cohesive approach to equality work through the strategically placed equality unit. We do not have any precedents; we can make our own blueprint and map our own route.

By adopting the motion today and entering into meaningful dialogue, we shall create the opportunity to scope an effective programme for equality into the next century.

I move,

That the Parliament welcomes the Scottish Executive's commitment, as set out in Making it Work Together: A Programme for Government, to promote equality of opportunity for all and to do that through an inclusive, phased and participative approach to the development of an equality strategy so ensuring that in developing policy and in service design and delivery concern for equality is at the heart of the matter.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:01:27.8453423+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2110E214P424C712942", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gibson, Kenneth", "ID": 2110, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenneth Gibson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Kenneth Gibson (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 144.0, "ContributionID": 712942, "EditedText": "As someone who is barely out of his twenties, I cannot declare a personal interest in the debate. MEMBERS: \"Ah.\" According to the Benefits Agency, almost 259,000 people over the age of 60 in Scotland were, in May this year, entitled to income support but fewer than 163,000 were in receipt of it. That means that almost 100,000 pensioners—a massive 37 per cent of those who are entitled to income support—do not receive it. It is thought that an even higher number of pensioners entitled to housing and council tax benefits do not claim them—that is borne out by research that my office has carried out.", "EditedTextHTML": "As someone who is barely out of his twenties, I cannot declare a personal interest in the debate. [MEMBERS: \"Ah.\"] According to the Benefits Agency, almost 259,000 people over the age of 60 in Scotland were, in May this year, entitled to income support but fewer than 163,000 were in receipt of it. That means that almost 100,000 pensioners—a massive 37 per cent of those who are entitled to income support—do not receive it. It is thought that an even higher number of pensioners entitled to housing and council tax benefits do not claim them—that is borne out by research that my office has carried out.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:30:33.6801878+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1783E59P270C713012", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Baillie, Jackie", "ID": 1783, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumbarton" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Jackie Baillie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Jackie Baillie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 301.0, "ContributionID": 713012, "EditedText": "If I may finish, I will get to that point. Tommy mentioned the link to earnings. The minimum income guarantee restores that link for the 125,000 poorest pensioners in Scotland. I hope that Tommy will welcome that. As a showbiz socialist he will appreciate that, in the words of Ronan Keating from Boyzone, \"you say it best when you say nothing at all\".Winter fuel payments are up from £20 to £100, a fivefold increase to tackle the Tory legacy that meant that a third of single pensioners were living in fuel poverty in 1997.", "EditedTextHTML": "If I may finish, I will get to that point. Tommy mentioned the link to earnings. The minimum income guarantee restores that link for the 125,000 poorest pensioners in Scotland. I hope that Tommy will welcome that. As a showbiz socialist he will appreciate that, in the words of Ronan Keating from Boyzone,

\"you say it best when you say nothing at all\".

Winter fuel payments are up from £20 to £100, a fivefold increase to tackle the Tory legacy that meant that a third of single pensioners were living in fuel poverty in 1997.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:32:53.221528+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1783E59P270C713115", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27152, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 447.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27153, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 448.0, "QuestionHeading": "Women's Aid Refuges", "QuestionHeadingID": 27157, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 484.0, "DisplayOrder": 484.0, "ID": 27157, "ParentID": 27153 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Baillie, Jackie", "ID": 1783, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumbarton" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Jackie Baillie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Jackie Baillie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 489.0, "ContributionID": 713115, "EditedText": "The Executive already recognises that fact, which is why we established the domestic abuse service development fund a few weeks ago. That fund will provide an eightfold increase in the amount that the Executive gives to refuges.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Executive already recognises that fact, which is why we established the domestic abuse service development fund a few weeks ago. That fund will provide an eightfold increase in the amount that the Executive gives to refuges.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:34:40.9579878+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1783E59P270C713036", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Baillie, Jackie", "ID": 1783, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumbarton" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Jackie Baillie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Jackie Baillie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 349.0, "ContributionID": 713036, "EditedText": "I did, actually—it was a bit like fantasy football. We have linked the minimum income guarantee to earnings to help the poorest pensioners in society. That is our key priority. It is about targeting our resources on the poorest pensioners. The Executive is clear that older people matter. \"Social Justice …a Scotland where everyone matters\", which was launched last week, sets out our targets and milestones in respect of our older people and shows that they are at the heart of government in Scotland. Unlike the SNP and the Tories, not only will we tackle pensioner poverty and quality of life, we will be held accountable to the people of Scotland Disappointingly, the usual attacks were made on the chancellor's announcement yesterday that Scottish Executive ministers are to sit with their counterparts from across Britain on joint ministerial committees to co-ordinate and develop joint working to tackle pensioner poverty.", "EditedTextHTML": "I did, actually—it was a bit like fantasy football.

We have linked the minimum income guarantee to earnings to help the poorest pensioners in society. That is our key priority. It is about targeting our resources on the poorest pensioners.

The Executive is clear that older people matter. \"Social Justice …a Scotland where everyone matters\", which was launched last week, sets out our targets and milestones in respect of our older people and shows that they are at the heart of government in Scotland. Unlike the SNP and the Tories, not only will we tackle pensioner poverty and quality of life, we will be held accountable to the people of Scotland

Disappointingly, the usual attacks were made on the chancellor's announcement yesterday that Scottish Executive ministers are to sit with their counterparts from across Britain on joint ministerial committees to co-ordinate and develop joint working to tackle pensioner poverty.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:33:46.8988034+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1783E59P270C713040", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Baillie, Jackie", "ID": 1783, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumbarton" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Jackie Baillie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Jackie Baillie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 357.0, "ContributionID": 713040, "EditedText": "I thank Mike Rumbles for that intervention. Families need to talk to each other, so I suggest that he talks to his leader.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank Mike Rumbles for that intervention. Families need to talk to each other, so I suggest that he talks to his leader.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:33:46.8988034+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1783E59P270C713043", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Baillie, Jackie", "ID": 1783, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumbarton" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Jackie Baillie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Jackie Baillie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 363.0, "ContributionID": 713043, "EditedText": "For far too long, the skills, experiences and insights of Scotland's older people have been ignored. We will invite, value and act on their contributions. Let no one be in any doubt that the Executive is committed to listening to older people, to valuing their contribution and to supporting their needs. The vision outlined in the section entitled \"Every older person matters\" in our report, \"Social Justice …a Scotland where everyone matters\" shows that we want older people to be financially secure and to enjoy active, independent and healthy lives.", "EditedTextHTML": "For far too long, the skills, experiences and insights of Scotland's older people have been ignored. We will invite, value and act on their contributions.

Let no one be in any doubt that the Executive is committed to listening to older people, to valuing their contribution and to supporting their needs. The vision outlined in the section entitled \"Every older person matters\" in our report, \"Social Justice …a Scotland where everyone matters\" shows that we want older people to be financially secure and to enjoy active, independent and healthy lives.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:33:46.8988034+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1783E59P270C713045", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Baillie, Jackie", "ID": 1783, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumbarton" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Jackie Baillie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Jackie Baillie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 367.0, "ContributionID": 713045, "EditedText": "That is our goal. We have started to deliver on it. We are the only party that will do so. I would like to believe that everyone in the chamber, including the SNP, shares that goal, but would members trust it with their pension? The SNP has never said how it would pay for a separate social security department in Scotland. It has said nothing about the enormous set-up costs or the running costs and it has given no details about the different types and levels of benefit or about how they would be uprated.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is our goal. We have started to deliver on it. We are the only party that will do so. I would like to believe that everyone in the chamber, including the SNP, shares that goal, but would members trust it with their pension? The SNP has never said how it would pay for a separate social security department in Scotland. It has said nothing about the enormous set-up costs or the running costs and it has given no details about the different types and levels of benefit or about how they would be uprated.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:33:46.8988034+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1783E59P270C713061", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Baillie, Jackie", "ID": 1783, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumbarton" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Jackie Baillie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Jackie Baillie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 400.0, "ContributionID": 713061, "EditedText": "I do not doubt the sentiments that Christine Grahame expresses, but what actions does she propose to take? Let us hear what SNP policies are, how much they cost and when they will be introduced.", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not doubt the sentiments that Christine Grahame expresses, but what actions does she propose to take? Let us hear what SNP policies are, how much they cost and when they will be introduced.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:33:46.8988034+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C713311", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Freight and Passenger Terminal (Fife)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27180, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 881.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 881.0, "ID": 27180, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fergus Ewing (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 907.0, "ContributionID": 713311, "EditedText": "I commend and support Robin's comments. The Scottish National party has a long record of supporting the use of renewable energy. Does Robin accept that the development of wind power would provide an opportunity to deal with the jobs crisis at BARMAC's yards at Nigg and Ardersier, where 3,000 men have lost or are about to lose their jobs?", "EditedTextHTML": "I commend and support Robin's comments. The Scottish National party has a long record of supporting the use of renewable energy. Does Robin accept that the development of wind power would provide an opportunity to deal with the jobs crisis at

BARMAC's yards at Nigg and Ardersier, where 3,000 men have lost or are about to lose their jobs?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:00:18.3299743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2110E214P424C712944", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gibson, Kenneth", "ID": 2110, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenneth Gibson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Gibson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 148.0, "ContributionID": 712944, "EditedText": "I wonder why the Executive has made no effort to bring together the information needed to address the problem. In September, because I was unable to get the information from the Scottish Executive, as it does not record it, I wrote to the 32 Scottish local authorities asking them to give the number of people of pensionable age in their area and the number receiving full or partial council tax benefit. There are alarming variations: for example, the income support claimant rate in the Highland Council area is 32 per cent, whereas the full council tax benefit claimant rate is only 15 per cent. That low council tax claimant rate is reflected across Scotland: in Edinburgh, 17 per cent of pensioners receive a full council tax rebate; in East Renfrewshire, the figure is 16 per cent; and in the Scottish Borders it is 24 per cent. That compares with an overall income support claimant rate of just under 40 per cent of Scottish pensioners. While those figures are based only on the information that is available, they show alarming levels of under-claiming. I appeal to the Scottish Executive to obtain the facts needed to assess and address pensioner poverty. The issue is wider than unclaimed benefits. Those who claim everything to which they are entitled are punished as well. Mr Alexander lives in my constituency, in a typical Glasgow council house. He is charged £42 rent and £15 a week council tax, which takes into account his single person discount. Because he has a war pension of £41 a week on top of his state pension, he has to pay £21 of his weekly rent bill himself and £7 towards his council tax, leaving him a net income of £80 a week—only £5 above the income support level. From Mr Alexander's occupational pension of £41 per week, the Government clawback is £28 of the £33 differential between the income support level and his income, equivalent to a marginal rate of taxation of 85 per cent—a new Labour poverty trap. Two things need to be done to end that deplorable situation. One is a reserved matter; the other can be addressed by the Parliament. The first is that the taper of reduction for pensioners on housing benefit must be changed—a change of 20p in the taper would leave Mr Alexander, for example, £6 per week better off. The second is council tax: it is ridiculous that hundreds and thousands of Scottish pensioners are paying it. Moving to a system of local income tax and away from the discriminatory council tax system would take an estimated 578,000 Scottish pensioners out of local taxation. Only those eligible for income tax would have to pay and only those with substantial private incomes would find themselves paying more. I am sure that my Liberal Democrat colleagues will agree, as local income tax is part of their policy. Mr Alexander and hundreds of thousands of pensioners like him would be approximately £7 per week better off. Pensioners deserve a better deal. We need a proper increase in the state pension, the restoration of the link with earnings, a real campaign to ensure that all pensioners who are entitled to income support receive it, and a commitment to reduce the clawback on housing benefit. Pensioners who have occupational pensions deserve to be able to enjoy that modest income without feeling Big Brother's hand in their pocket. It is time that the Government gave something back to the generations who sacrificed so much in the past and still have so much to offer in the future. I support the motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "I wonder why the Executive has made no effort to bring together the information needed to address the problem. In September, because I was unable to get the information from the Scottish Executive, as it does not record it, I wrote to the 32 Scottish local authorities asking them to give the number of people of pensionable

age in their area and the number receiving full or partial council tax benefit.

There are alarming variations: for example, the income support claimant rate in the Highland Council area is 32 per cent, whereas the full council tax benefit claimant rate is only 15 per cent. That low council tax claimant rate is reflected across Scotland: in Edinburgh, 17 per cent of pensioners receive a full council tax rebate; in East Renfrewshire, the figure is 16 per cent; and in the Scottish Borders it is 24 per cent. That compares with an overall income support claimant rate of just under 40 per cent of Scottish pensioners. While those figures are based only on the information that is available, they show alarming levels of under-claiming. I appeal to the Scottish Executive to obtain the facts needed to assess and address pensioner poverty.

The issue is wider than unclaimed benefits. Those who claim everything to which they are entitled are punished as well. Mr Alexander lives in my constituency, in a typical Glasgow council house. He is charged £42 rent and £15 a week council tax, which takes into account his single person discount. Because he has a war pension of £41 a week on top of his state pension, he has to pay £21 of his weekly rent bill himself and £7 towards his council tax, leaving him a net income of £80 a week—only £5 above the income support level. From Mr Alexander's occupational pension of £41 per week, the Government clawback is £28 of the £33 differential between the income support level and his income, equivalent to a marginal rate of taxation of 85 per cent—a new Labour poverty trap.

Two things need to be done to end that deplorable situation. One is a reserved matter; the other can be addressed by the Parliament. The first is that the taper of reduction for pensioners on housing benefit must be changed—a change of 20p in the taper would leave Mr Alexander, for example, £6 per week better off. The second is council tax: it is ridiculous that hundreds and thousands of Scottish pensioners are paying it. Moving to a system of local income tax and away from the discriminatory council tax system would take an estimated 578,000 Scottish pensioners out of local taxation. Only those eligible for income tax would have to pay and only those with substantial private incomes would find themselves paying more. I am sure that my Liberal Democrat colleagues will agree, as local income tax is part of their policy. Mr Alexander and hundreds of thousands of pensioners like him would be approximately £7 per week better off.

Pensioners deserve a better deal. We need a proper increase in the state pension, the restoration of the link with earnings, a real campaign to ensure that all pensioners who are entitled to income support receive it, and a commitment to reduce the clawback on housing benefit. Pensioners who have occupational pensions deserve to be able to enjoy that modest income without feeling Big Brother's hand in their pocket. It is time that the Government gave something back to the generations who sacrificed so much in the past and still have so much to offer in the future. I support the motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:31:43.4808602+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C713334", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Freight and Passenger Terminal (Fife)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27180, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 881.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 881.0, "ID": 27180, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fergus Ewing rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 955.0, "ContributionID": 713334, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:00:18.3299743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C712884", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fergus Ewing (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 21.0, "ContributionID": 712884, "EditedText": "Does Alex agree that it is astonishing that not one Labour member has sought to intervene to defend their party's appalling record on pensions?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does Alex agree that it is astonishing that not one Labour member has sought to intervene to defend their party's appalling record on pensions?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:01:17.5713192+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C712973", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fergus Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 217.0, "ContributionID": 712973, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:01:17.5713192+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C713135", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27152, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 447.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27153, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 448.0, "QuestionHeading": "Consultative Steering Group Report", "QuestionHeadingID": 27163, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 526.0, "DisplayOrder": 526.0, "ID": 27163, "ParentID": 27153 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 535.0, "ContributionID": 713135, "EditedText": "Does the minister think that that constitutes adequate consultation?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the minister think that that constitutes adequate consultation?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:00:03.7213861+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C713328", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Freight and Passenger Terminal (Fife)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27180, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 881.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 881.0, "ID": 27180, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 943.0, "ContributionID": 713328, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:08.9207112+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C713337", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Freight and Passenger Terminal (Fife)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27180, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 881.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 881.0, "ID": 27180, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 961.0, "ContributionID": 713337, "EditedText": "If it is not a point of order, I would like to continue.", "EditedTextHTML": "If it is not a point of order, I would like to continue.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:08.9207112+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2180E179P471C712998", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lochhead, Richard", "ID": 2180, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Lochhead", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Richard Lochhead: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 270.0, "ContributionID": 712998, "EditedText": "Is it you, Tricia?I am delighted to participate in this debate, which is a great chance for the Parliament to discuss the key concerns of older people in Scotland. My generation knows that we owe those people a tremendous debt. That is why I am determined that this Parliament should do its utmost to deliver for them. Older people's expectations of the Parliament are high. They have been disappointed time and time again by successive Westminster Governments that have failed to show any political will or determination to help older people in Scotland. Many people are familiar with an SNP slogan which says that Scotland is the only country to discover oil and get poorer. It is clear from a report in today's press that Scotland has continued to get poorer, and it is an indictment of Westminster rule of Scotland over the decades—and, in particular, of the Labour party's rule of Glasgow—that the same report says that elderly people in Scotland are dying sooner than elsewhere in the United Kingdom. One reason for that is that, not only is Scotland the only country to discover oil and get poorer, but it is the only country to discover oil and gas and still allow old people to live in conditions in which they cannot heat their homes properly. We have heard many statistics today: more than 100,000 households in Scotland headed by people over 60 are without central heating; in 18 per cent of cases, single pensioners do not heat their main living rooms on a regular basis. We are told that one in three pensioners lives in fuel poverty and spends 20 per cent of his or her income on trying to keep warm. Yet Scotland is Europe's energy capital. Here we are in 1999: production of North sea oil and gas is at record levels for the past 25 years of production. One of the cruellest ironies must be that, although revenues are up 62 per cent from the same time last year, and despite all the natural resources under Scottish waters and the wells that produce that most precious natural resource in the world, there are people living on the land adjacent to those oilfields, within sight of the oil rigs, who cannot afford to heat their homes. Surely that is a scandal, and one that successive Westminster Governments of all political shades have allowed to continue. We all know that we get the harshest of winters in Scotland, yet we hear that our old people will get £100 of winter fuel payments and a 75p increase in their pensions. They have a wholly inadequate severe weather payment scheme, run by Westminster. A payment of £100 for fuel in winter only costs £50 million a year. Are we saying that £50 is adequate to heat the homes of the 900,000 pensioners in Scotland? Surely the fact that the excess winter mortality rate among old people in Finland is less than half that of Scotland tells us that the policies coming out of Westminster simply do not work for old folk in Scotland. As was mentioned earlier in the debate, it is the same old story from Westminster. Yes, Westminster has delivered the £100 winter payment, but what else is happening? New Labour in Scotland is cutting back on local authority budgets, which means that it is giving that £100 with one hand but taking money away with the other. There have been protests and demonstrations by old people around Scotland in recent months and years, because of increased charges for wardens, for home help and for visits to day care centres. Old folk even have to pay more in shops for their food in rural areas: that means more money taken from their budget because of the rise in fuel duty, which has a particularly bad impact in rural areas. A significant step forward needs to be taken, with proper, adequately resourced and structured severe weather payments in Scotland. The current scheme is completely unsatisfactory; it does not take into account different climatic conditions around the country. The trigger is set at an inadequate level. There has to be an ice age before our old folk are helped. In conclusion, the Executive does have a big challenge before it to deliver a better Scotland for our old people, but if it does not meet it, it should have the guts to return to this chamber in two years' time and admit that only in an independent Scotland will we have access to the resources that will deliver a better quality of life for old people in this country.", "EditedTextHTML": "Is it you, Tricia?

I am delighted to participate in this debate, which is a great chance for the Parliament to discuss the key concerns of older people in Scotland. My generation knows that we owe those people a tremendous debt. That is why I am determined that this Parliament should do its utmost to deliver for them. Older people's expectations of the Parliament are high. They have been disappointed time and time again by successive Westminster Governments that have failed to show any political will or determination to help older people in Scotland.

Many people are familiar with an SNP slogan which says that Scotland is the only country to discover oil and get poorer. It is clear from a report in today's press that Scotland has continued to get poorer, and it is an indictment of Westminster rule of Scotland over the decades—and, in particular, of the Labour party's rule of Glasgow—that the same report says that elderly people in Scotland are dying sooner than elsewhere in the United Kingdom. One reason for that is that, not only is Scotland the only country to discover oil and get poorer, but it is the only country to discover oil and gas and still allow old people to live in conditions in which they cannot heat their homes properly.

We have heard many statistics today: more than 100,000 households in Scotland headed by people over 60 are without central heating; in 18 per cent of cases, single pensioners do not heat their main living rooms on a regular basis. We are told that one in three pensioners lives in fuel poverty and spends 20 per cent of his or her income on trying to keep warm.

Yet Scotland is Europe's energy capital. Here we are in 1999: production of North sea oil and gas is at record levels for the past 25 years of production. One of the cruellest ironies must be that, although revenues are up 62 per cent from the same time last year, and despite all the natural resources under Scottish waters and the wells that produce that most precious natural resource in the world, there are people living on the land adjacent to those oilfields, within sight of the oil rigs, who cannot afford to heat their homes. Surely that is a scandal, and one that successive Westminster Governments of all political shades have allowed to continue.

We all know that we get the harshest of winters in Scotland, yet we hear that our old people will get £100 of winter fuel payments and a 75p increase in their pensions. They have a wholly inadequate severe weather payment scheme, run by Westminster. A payment of £100 for fuel in winter only costs £50 million a year. Are we saying that £50 is adequate to heat the homes of the 900,000 pensioners in Scotland? Surely the fact that the excess winter mortality rate among old people in Finland is less than half that of Scotland tells us that the policies coming out of Westminster simply do not work for old folk in Scotland.

As was mentioned earlier in the debate, it is the same old story from Westminster. Yes, Westminster has delivered the £100 winter payment, but what else is happening? New Labour in Scotland is cutting back on local authority budgets, which means that it is giving that £100 with one hand but taking money away with the other. There have been protests and demonstrations by old people around Scotland in recent months and years, because of increased charges for wardens, for home help and for visits to day care centres. Old folk even have to pay more in shops for their food in rural areas: that means more money taken from their budget because of the rise in fuel duty, which has a particularly bad impact in rural areas.

A significant step forward needs to be taken, with proper, adequately resourced and structured severe weather payments in Scotland. The current scheme is completely unsatisfactory; it does not take into account different climatic conditions around the country. The trigger is set at an inadequate level. There has to be an ice age before our old folk are helped.

In conclusion, the Executive does have a big challenge before it to deliver a better Scotland for our old people, but if it does not meet it, it should have the guts to return to this chamber in two years' time and admit that only in an independent Scotland will we have access to the resources that will deliver a better quality of life for old people in this country.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:01:04.7890265+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2133E222P520C713249", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Equalities", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27178, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 685.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 685.0, "ID": 27178, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Matheson, Michael", "ID": 2133, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Matheson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Matheson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 792.0, "ContributionID": 713249, "EditedText": "This debate illustrates the need to continue to address the issues of inequality in Scottish society. Given the amount of equality legislation that remains reserved to Westminster, however, the question remains as to whether inequality issues will be tackled to the extent that they would be if this Parliament had full powers in that legislative area. A number of issues have been highlighted during the course of the debate that clearly illustrate our limitations. As a member of the Equal Opportunities Committee, I am well aware of the pressing demand from organisations to deal with inequality. It is also important to recognise the limitations of the committee as a result of the major pieces of legislation that govern this area being reserved matters. One of the strongest arguments for having a mandatory Equal Opportunities Committee in our Parliament was that Westminster had failed to deal adequately with inequality. However, having established the committee in Scotland, Westminster keeps the legislation. Important pieces of legislation, such as the Sex Discrimination Act 1975, the Equal Pay Act 1970, the Race Relations Act 1976 and the Disability Discrimination Act 1995, are all reserved to Westminster, although they are key in tackling inequality in Scotland. Roseanna Cunningham has highlighted the fact that the issue of religious discrimination is being investigated in England and Wales by the Home Office, although nothing is being done in Scotland. Fiona Hyslop highlighted the inequalities created by the new Immigration and Asylum Act 1999, which amends four Scottish acts on devolved matters, and yet there was no consultation with this Parliament about it. Jackie Baillie mentioned discrimination in the workplace, particularly in relation to wages, but the matters covered by the Equal Pay Act 1970 are reserved. Lloyd Quinan pointed out that the Northern Ireland Assembly is able to deal with all forms of discrimination under its own powers. For some reason, however, it has been decided that this Parliament should not be given that responsibility. It is not just the SNP that is disappointed by the lack of control over equal opportunities; our disappointment is shared by the trade unions and other interested organisations. The Equality Network has said that \"it seems that the Scottish Parliament, despite its wide legislative powers, will be more limited in what it can do for equal opportunities than the Welsh Assembly will be.\" Many other organisations have joined in criticising the reserved status of equality legislation. Kate MacLean made an interesting point, saying that, although she did not object to our amendment, she thought that it was rather negative. I am not sure whether that amounts to conditional support for further devolved powers over equal opportunities, but perhaps she can enlighten us about her opinions later. I will return to an issue that was highlighted earlier, and which I have raised with Jackie Baillie in written questions, and that is the Race Relations Act 1976 and the impact that it has on the work of the Commission for Racial Equality in particular. After 14 years—years of shame during which the Tories ignored the need to amend the act—finally, the Labour Home Secretary decided that he would amend the act and accept a number of major recommendations in doing so. However, his official response in the past couple of weeks was, \"Yes, we accept the recommendations on the need for a new definition of indirect discrimination, for the CRE to embark on informal investigations on its own, for the CRE to secure changes in discriminatory practices promptly, and to give the CRE the power to issue new codes of practice without further amendment of the act. Yes, we accept the recommendations unconditionally, but there is no time in Parliament to deal with them.\" The Government has also accepted conditionally another 10 recommendations, but there is no time to deal with them in committee or to amend the act. What sort of message does that send out about tackling inequalities in the UK as a whole? Let us be honest: Westminster does not have the time, but if we can afford a whole morning debating the millennium bug, we do have the time. If we had the power to amend the Race Relations Act 1976, we would do it in the manner in which it should be amended. We need to end the war of words. On Saturday, Wendy Alexander shared a platform with me at a Trades Union Congress rally. The people there said clearly that they want to see action. The time for warm words has gone. The message from this debate should be that if we are serious about tackling inequalities in Scotland, we need the powers to create the just and fair society that we all desire.", "EditedTextHTML": "This debate illustrates the need to continue to address the issues of inequality in Scottish society. Given the amount of equality legislation that remains reserved to Westminster, however, the question remains as to whether inequality issues will be tackled to the extent that they would be if this Parliament had full powers in that legislative area.

A number of issues have been highlighted during the course of the debate that clearly illustrate our limitations. As a member of the Equal Opportunities Committee, I am well aware of the pressing demand from organisations to deal with inequality. It is also important to recognise the limitations of the committee as a result of the major pieces of legislation that govern this area being reserved matters.

One of the strongest arguments for having a mandatory Equal Opportunities Committee in our Parliament was that Westminster had failed to deal adequately with inequality. However, having established the committee in Scotland, Westminster keeps the legislation. Important pieces of legislation, such as the Sex Discrimination Act 1975, the Equal Pay Act 1970, the Race Relations Act 1976 and the Disability Discrimination Act 1995, are all reserved to Westminster, although they are key in tackling inequality in Scotland.

Roseanna Cunningham has highlighted the fact that the issue of religious discrimination is being investigated in England and Wales by the Home Office, although nothing is being done in Scotland. Fiona Hyslop highlighted the inequalities created by the new Immigration and Asylum Act 1999, which amends four Scottish acts on devolved matters, and yet there was no consultation with this Parliament about it.

Jackie Baillie mentioned discrimination in the workplace, particularly in relation to wages, but the matters covered by the Equal Pay Act 1970 are reserved. Lloyd Quinan pointed out that the Northern Ireland Assembly is able to deal with all forms of discrimination under its own powers. For some reason, however, it has been decided that this Parliament should not be given that responsibility.

It is not just the SNP that is disappointed by the lack of control over equal opportunities; our disappointment is shared by the trade unions and other interested organisations. The Equality Network has said that

\"it seems that the Scottish Parliament, despite its wide legislative powers, will be more limited in what it can do for equal opportunities than the Welsh Assembly will be.\"

Many other organisations have joined in criticising the reserved status of equality legislation.

Kate MacLean made an interesting point, saying that, although she did not object to our amendment, she thought that it was rather negative. I am not sure whether that amounts to conditional support for further devolved powers over equal opportunities, but perhaps she can enlighten us about her opinions later.

I will return to an issue that was highlighted earlier, and which I have raised with Jackie Baillie in written questions, and that is the Race Relations Act 1976 and the impact that it has on the work of the Commission for Racial Equality in particular. After 14 years—years of shame during which the Tories ignored the need to amend the act—finally, the Labour Home Secretary decided that he would amend the act and accept a number of major recommendations in doing so. However, his official response in the past couple of weeks was, \"Yes, we accept the recommendations on the need for a new definition of indirect discrimination, for the CRE to embark on informal investigations on its own, for the CRE to secure changes in discriminatory practices promptly, and to give the CRE the power to issue new codes of practice without further amendment of the act. Yes, we accept the recommendations unconditionally, but there is no time in Parliament to deal with them.\"

The Government has also accepted conditionally another 10 recommendations, but there is no time to deal with them in committee or to amend the act. What sort of message does that send out about tackling inequalities in the UK as a whole? Let us be honest: Westminster does not have the time, but if we can afford a whole morning debating the millennium bug, we do have the time. If we had the power to amend the Race

Relations Act 1976, we would do it in the manner in which it should be amended.

We need to end the war of words. On Saturday, Wendy Alexander shared a platform with me at a Trades Union Congress rally. The people there said clearly that they want to see action. The time for warm words has gone. The message from this debate should be that if we are serious about tackling inequalities in Scotland, we need the powers to create the just and fair society that we all desire.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:12.769626+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1773E197P503C713220", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Equalities", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27178, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 685.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 685.0, "ID": 27178, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hyslop, Fiona", "ID": 1773, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona Hyslop", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona Hyslop (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 726.0, "ContributionID": 713220, "EditedText": "Parliament must be getting used to its regular fix of motherhood and apple pie from the Executive, particularly from this combination of ministers. Yes, the issues being introduced by the Minister for Communities and her team are important, but their motions are so bland and self-congratulatory that it is questionable whether debating them is a good use of the Parliament's time. We could, for example, be discussing real issues about racism and inequality in society. The packed benches are evidence of that. The fact that the Executive treats issues of race or gender as social issues gives us a flavour of its approach; it sees them as issues to be managed and social services to be delivered. SNP members are clear: race and gender are issues of rights— basic human rights—and justice. Basic human rights are central to this country of ours and to our newborn democracy and are a prerequisite for what we do—or should do. What do we get from the Executive? General, meaningless words about phased and participative approaches and about service design and delivery. What is all that about? It sounds like a description of the Edinburgh Ikea showroom and catalogue launch—phased, participative, service design and delivery. On human rights, how can the Executive prove its commitment to equality of opportunity when we have yet to hear a statement from it about how it will stand up for refugees and asylum seekers in Scotland now that the Immigration and Asylum Act 1999 has been passed at Westminster? The act most certainly has an impact on equal opportunities yet, again, in key areas, the Executive is powerless without the ability to legislate on equal opportunities. How can we confirm that the Executive is committed to equal opportunity when we have yet to have a chance to debate a Scottish response to an act that will have a significant impact on how this country deals with immigration and asylum issues, that will arouse sensitivities and that has the potential to cause racial tension? I remind members that in the 1970s and 1980s, Vietnamese and Chilean refugees were housed in difficult-to-let areas of Glasgow. They suffered from a lack of support and racial harassment. During the Gulf war, stranded Iraqi students were housed in high-rise flats, which they were forced to leave because of continuous harassment. The council reported that the experience had been a disaster. How can the Executive say that it believes in human rights, social justice and equality when it is complicit in helping through the odious Immigration and Asylum Act 1999 at Westminster? The act removes the human rights of asylum seekers and reduces them to the status of bonded servants, using tokens at the company store to meet their most basic needs. The act removes the right of Scottish local authorities to come to the aid of asylum seekers through the use of emergency grants; it denies Scottish local authorities the right to aid asylum seekers suffering from mental health difficulties; it removes Scottish local authorities' ability to help to house asylum seekers; it removes Scottish local authorities' ability to provide services to aid the children of asylum seekers. The act is rooted in inequality and amends four separate Scottish acts. It is an act on which, with the complicity of the Executive, this chamber was denied any discussion. If the Executive thinks that the effect of the Immigration and Asylum Act 1999 on equal opportunities in Scotland will be negligible, it should stand up and say so. All we have from the Executive are bland assurances, in response to written questions, that consultation is taking place. There is no explanation of what that consultation is. We know what consultation means: it is a one- way street, with Westminster doing all the telling and Holyrood reduced to a listening post. Does the Executive think that its support for the Immigration and Asylum Act 1999 would pass the equality checklist for MSPs launched by the First Minister last night? Does the Scottish Executive believe that changes to Scottish legislation will mainstream equality? Does it believe that full information has been given and analysis made of the impact on equality groups? Have the full range of options and those options' differential impacts on equality groups been presented? Have the direct and indirect effects of proposals been taken into account? I think the answer to that checklist for MSPs on equality is no. I think that the Executive knows that the Immigration and Asylum Act—as it affects four pieces of Scottish legislation—would fail its own equality test. I want a Scotland of equal opportunity, in which we combat racism, whether it is personal or institutional. We will be judged not on our fine words, however, but on what we do. On this key test, the Executive has failed in the past few months. It is clear that, on this issue, the Executive is quite happy to be an administrative assembly for Westminster rather than a powerhouse Parliament leading the people of Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "Parliament must be getting used to its regular fix of motherhood and apple pie from the Executive, particularly from this combination of ministers. Yes, the issues being introduced by the Minister for Communities and her team are important, but their motions are so bland and self-congratulatory that it is questionable whether debating them is a good use of the Parliament's time. We could, for example, be discussing real issues about racism and inequality in society. The packed benches are evidence of that.

The fact that the Executive treats issues of race or gender as social issues gives us a flavour of its approach; it sees them as issues to be managed and social services to be delivered. SNP members are clear: race and gender are issues of rights— basic human rights—and justice.

Basic human rights are central to this country of ours and to our newborn democracy and are a prerequisite for what we do—or should do. What do we get from the Executive? General, meaningless words about phased and participative approaches and about service design and delivery. What is all that about? It sounds like a description of the Edinburgh Ikea showroom and catalogue launch—phased, participative, service design and delivery.

On human rights, how can the Executive prove its commitment to equality of opportunity when we have yet to hear a statement from it about how it will stand up for refugees and asylum seekers in Scotland now that the Immigration and Asylum Act 1999 has been passed at Westminster? The act most certainly has an impact on equal opportunities yet, again, in key areas, the Executive is powerless without the ability to legislate on equal opportunities.

How can we confirm that the Executive is committed to equal opportunity when we have yet to have a chance to debate a Scottish response to an act that will have a significant impact on how this country deals with immigration and asylum issues, that will arouse sensitivities and that has the potential to cause racial tension?

I remind members that in the 1970s and 1980s, Vietnamese and Chilean refugees were housed in difficult-to-let areas of Glasgow. They suffered from a lack of support and racial harassment. During the Gulf war, stranded Iraqi students were housed in high-rise flats, which they were forced to leave because of continuous harassment. The council reported that the experience had been a disaster.

How can the Executive say that it believes in human rights, social justice and equality when it is complicit in helping through the odious Immigration and Asylum Act 1999 at Westminster? The act removes the human rights of asylum seekers and reduces them to the status of bonded servants, using tokens at the company store to meet their most basic needs.

The act removes the right of Scottish local authorities to come to the aid of asylum seekers through the use of emergency grants; it denies Scottish local authorities the right to aid asylum seekers suffering from mental health difficulties; it removes Scottish local authorities' ability to help to house asylum seekers; it removes Scottish local authorities' ability to provide services to aid the children of asylum seekers. The act is rooted in inequality and amends four separate Scottish acts. It is an act on which, with the complicity of the Executive, this chamber was denied any discussion.

If the Executive thinks that the effect of the Immigration and Asylum Act 1999 on equal opportunities in Scotland will be negligible, it should stand up and say so. All we have from the Executive are bland assurances, in response to written questions, that consultation is taking place. There is no explanation of what that consultation is. We know what consultation means: it is a one- way street, with Westminster doing all the telling and Holyrood reduced to a listening post.

Does the Executive think that its support for the Immigration and Asylum Act 1999 would pass the equality checklist for MSPs launched by the First Minister last night? Does the Scottish Executive believe that changes to Scottish legislation will mainstream equality? Does it believe that full information has been given and analysis made of the impact on equality groups? Have the full range of options and those options' differential impacts on equality groups been presented? Have the direct and indirect effects of proposals been taken into account? I think the answer to that checklist for MSPs on equality is no.

I think that the Executive knows that the Immigration and Asylum Act—as it affects four pieces of Scottish legislation—would fail its own equality test. I want a Scotland of equal opportunity, in which we combat racism, whether it is personal or institutional. We will be judged not on our fine words, however, but on what we do. On this key test, the Executive has failed in the past few months.

It is clear that, on this issue, the Executive is quite happy to be an administrative assembly for Westminster rather than a powerhouse Parliament leading the people of Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:00:13.0585835+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C713101", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27152, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 447.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27153, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 448.0, "QuestionHeading": "Compulsory Purchase", "QuestionHeadingID": 27154, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 451.0, "DisplayOrder": 451.0, "ID": 27154, "ParentID": 27153 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 458.0, "ContributionID": 713101, "EditedText": "Every decision that we make will have to be in line with the European convention on human rights. It is important to state that decisions on compulsory purchase orders involve weighing up the public and private interests. All those issues have to be taken into account.", "EditedTextHTML": "Every decision that we make will have to be in line with the European convention on human rights. It is important to state that decisions on compulsory purchase orders involve weighing up the public and private interests. All those issues have to be taken into account.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:18.1559401+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C713163", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27152, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 447.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27153, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 448.0, "QuestionHeading": "Chancellor of the Exchequer (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27169, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 592.0, "DisplayOrder": 592.0, "ID": 27169, "ParentID": 27153 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 597.0, "ContributionID": 713163, "EditedText": "I recognise the hot pursuit of this issue that Mr Stone has mounted and I understand its importance and sensitivity. As he knows, there has been an enormous demand for funds that are, to some extent, limited. My colleague, the Minister for Rural Affairs has, very sensibly, tried to prioritise those funds, so that we can progress this matter in an orderly manner. Mr Finnie will meet the Rural Affairs Committee shortly to discuss the matter and I know that he is looking forward to that discussion.", "EditedTextHTML": "I recognise the hot pursuit of this issue that Mr Stone has mounted and I understand its importance and sensitivity. As he knows, there has been an enormous demand for funds that are, to some extent, limited. My colleague, the Minister for Rural Affairs has, very sensibly, tried to prioritise those funds, so that we can progress this matter in an orderly manner. Mr Finnie will meet the Rural Affairs Committee shortly to discuss the matter and I know that he is looking forward to that discussion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4825845+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C713164", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27152, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 447.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27153, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 448.0, "QuestionHeading": "Epilepsy", "QuestionHeadingID": 27170, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 599.0, "DisplayOrder": 599.0, "ID": 27170, "ParentID": 27153 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "17. Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 600.0, "ContributionID": 713164, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether there is a national strategy for the treatment of people with epilepsy in Scotland. (S1O-742)", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether there is a national strategy for the treatment of people with epilepsy in Scotland. (S1O-742)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4825845+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C713165", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27152, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 447.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27153, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 448.0, "QuestionHeading": "Epilepsy", "QuestionHeadingID": 27170, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 599.0, "DisplayOrder": 599.0, "ID": 27170, "ParentID": 27153 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 602.0, "ContributionID": 713165, "EditedText": "The Scottish Executive endorses the work of SIGN—the Scottish Intercollegiate Guidelines Network—in producing national guidelines for the management of epilepsy in adults. We are also working to build links between services best to meet patients' needs.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Scottish Executive endorses the work of SIGN—the Scottish Intercollegiate Guidelines Network—in producing national guidelines for the management of epilepsy in adults. We are also working to build links between services best to meet patients' needs.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4825845+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C713172", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27152, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 447.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27153, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 448.0, "QuestionHeading": "Houses in Multiple Occupancy", "QuestionHeadingID": 27172, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 615.0, "DisplayOrder": 615.0, "ID": 27172, "ParentID": 27153 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Patricia Ferguson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 618.0, "ContributionID": 713172, "EditedText": "Does the minister believe that licensing will strengthen the powers of local authorities to prevent situations from arising such as the one that occurred in my constituency earlier this year, when two young men lost their lives unnecessarily?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the minister believe that licensing will strengthen the powers of local authorities to prevent situations from arising such as the one that occurred in my constituency earlier this year, when two young men lost their lives unnecessarily?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4825845+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C713173", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27152, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 447.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27153, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 448.0, "QuestionHeading": "Houses in Multiple Occupancy", "QuestionHeadingID": 27172, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 615.0, "DisplayOrder": 615.0, "ID": 27172, "ParentID": 27153 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 620.0, "ContributionID": 713173, "EditedText": "The answer to that is also yes. I am acutely aware of the interest that Patricia Ferguson has taken in this matter following the recent deaths in her constituency. I can confirm that the working party that is drawing up the guidelines is now at work with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities to examine how preventive measures can be established. I would be happy to send Patricia Ferguson a copy of that guidance when I receive it, which should be around Christmas. We expect to bring it to the Parliament by spring 2000.", "EditedTextHTML": "The answer to that is also yes. I am acutely aware of the interest that Patricia Ferguson has taken in this matter following the recent deaths in her constituency. I can confirm that the working party that is drawing up the guidelines is now at work with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities to examine how preventive measures can be established. I would be happy to send Patricia Ferguson a copy of that guidance when I receive it, which should be around Christmas. We expect to bring it to the Parliament by spring 2000.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4825845+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1828E200P487C713183", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27174, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 629.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27175, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 630.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27176, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 631.0, "DisplayOrder": 631.0, "ID": 27176, "ParentID": 27175 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacDonald, Margo", "ID": 1828, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margo MacDonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Margo MacDonald (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 644.0, "ContributionID": 713183, "EditedText": "I am also in the mood for a constructive discussion. I am concerned about the effects of the Arbuthnott report, too. Does the First Minister agree that, given the University of Bristol findings and the growth in population and obvious requirement for a greater health spend in Lothian, it is foolish to cut back expenditure in Lothian to make sure that areas of Glasgow that badly need health service spending get it?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am also in the mood for a constructive discussion. I am concerned about the effects of the Arbuthnott report, too. Does the First Minister agree that, given the University of Bristol findings and the growth in population and obvious requirement for a greater health spend in Lothian, it is foolish to cut back expenditure in Lothian to make sure that areas of Glasgow that badly need health service spending get it?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4825845+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C713185", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27174, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 629.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27175, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 630.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27176, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 631.0, "DisplayOrder": 631.0, "ID": 27176, "ParentID": 27175 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "2. David McLetchie (Lothians) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 648.0, "ContributionID": 713185, "EditedText": "I ask this question on the basis that one never asks a question to which one does not already know the answer. To ask the Scottish Executive when the First Minister last met the Secretary of State for Scotland and what subjects were discussed. (S1O-764)", "EditedTextHTML": "I ask this question on the basis that one never asks a question to which one does not already know the answer. To ask the Scottish Executive when the First Minister last met the Secretary of State for Scotland and what subjects were discussed. (S1O-764)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4825845+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C713186", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27174, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 629.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27175, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 630.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27176, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 631.0, "DisplayOrder": 631.0, "ID": 27176, "ParentID": 27175 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 650.0, "ContributionID": 713186, "EditedText": "I had no idea that that was the principle on which David McLetchie worked. Laughter. I refer to the answer that I gave a few minutes ago to John Swinney.", "EditedTextHTML": "I had no idea that that was the principle on which David McLetchie worked. [Laughter.] I refer to the answer that I gave a few minutes ago to John Swinney.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4825845+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C713193", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27174, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 629.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27175, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 630.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27176, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 631.0, "DisplayOrder": 631.0, "ID": 27176, "ParentID": 27175 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Murray Tosh (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 664.0, "ContributionID": 713193, "EditedText": "I wish to return to the theme of transport. In the light of John Prescott's apparent decision earlier this week at the so-called roads summit to accelerate the road-building programme in England by increasing the allocation of money to transport, will the First Minister commit the Executive, in the event that it receives further resources as a consequence of that decision, to use those resources to accelerate the Executive's strategic road-building programme?", "EditedTextHTML": "I wish to return to the theme of transport. In the light of John Prescott's apparent decision earlier this week at the so-called roads summit to accelerate the road-building programme in England by increasing the allocation of money to transport, will the First Minister commit the Executive, in the event that it receives further resources as a consequence of that decision, to use those resources to accelerate the Executive's strategic road-building programme?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4825845+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1837E108P186C713195", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27174, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 629.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27175, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 630.0, "QuestionHeading": "Careers Service", "QuestionHeadingID": 27177, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 668.0, "DisplayOrder": 668.0, "ID": 27177, "ParentID": 27175 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mulligan, Mary", "ID": 1837, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Linlithgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Mulligan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "3. Mrs Mary Mulligan (Linlithgow) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 669.0, "ContributionID": 713195, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what steps it has taken to ensure the future operation of the careers service when the current contract for delivery runs out in April 2000. (S1O-773) The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning (Henry McLeish): Careers service companies whose contracts terminate on 31 March 2000 have been offered a one-year extension to their current contracts.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what steps it has taken to ensure the future operation of the careers service when the current contract for delivery runs out in April 2000. (S1O-773) The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning (Henry McLeish): Careers service companies whose contracts terminate on 31 March 2000 have been offered a one-year extension to their current contracts.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4825845+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C713197", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27174, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 629.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27175, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 630.0, "QuestionHeading": "Careers Service", "QuestionHeadingID": 27177, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 668.0, "DisplayOrder": 668.0, "ID": 27177, "ParentID": 27175 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 673.0, "ContributionID": 713197, "EditedText": "I can reassure Mary Mulligan that the points that she has made will form part of the new careers service review that we have set up. Young people with special needs are a priority, as are young people with a variety of learning difficulties, during the important transition period from school to work or further education. The careers service in Scotland is excellent, but there is always room for improvement. In the modern Scotland in which we live, there are new challenges caused by changes in the labour market, technology and new forms of communication. We want to ensure that we have the most effective partnership, not only between the careers service companies, but between everyone involved in dealing with young people, so that careers advice is of the very best. At present, there are age limitations on that work, but I want there to be a full, proper, comprehensive and effective adult guidance service as well. Part of the remit of the careers service review will be to consider the issues related to that and to ensure that Scotland gives a positive lead within the United Kingdom.", "EditedTextHTML": "I can reassure Mary Mulligan that the points that she has made will form part of the new careers service review that we have set up. Young people with special needs are a priority, as are young people with a variety of learning difficulties, during the important transition period from school to work or further education.

The careers service in Scotland is excellent, but there is always room for improvement. In the modern Scotland in which we live, there are new challenges caused by changes in the labour market, technology and new forms of communication. We want to ensure that we have the most effective partnership, not only between the careers service companies, but between everyone involved in dealing with young people, so that careers advice is of the very best.

At present, there are age limitations on that work, but I want there to be a full, proper, comprehensive and effective adult guidance service as well. Part of the remit of the careers service review will be to consider the issues related to that and to ensure that Scotland gives a positive lead within the United Kingdom.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4825845+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713198", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27174, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 629.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27175, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 630.0, "QuestionHeading": "Careers Service", "QuestionHeadingID": 27177, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 668.0, "DisplayOrder": 668.0, "ID": 27177, "ParentID": 27175 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 675.0, "ContributionID": 713198, "EditedText": "I remind ministers that the official report has trouble if they turn their backs to the microphone, pleasant though it is to look at Mrs Mulligan. I call Sandra White. Interruption. Ms White, you indicated that you wanted to speak.", "EditedTextHTML": "I remind ministers that the official report has trouble if they turn their backs to the microphone, pleasant though it is to look at Mrs Mulligan. I call Sandra White. [Interruption.] Ms White, you indicated that you wanted to speak.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4825845+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713203", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Equalities", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27178, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 685.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 685.0, "ID": 27178, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 686.0, "ContributionID": 713203, "EditedText": "The next item of business is a debate on motion S1M-334, in the name of Jackie Baillie, and on two amendments.", "EditedTextHTML": "The next item of business is a debate on motion S1M-334, in the name of Jackie Baillie, and on two amendments.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4825845+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2118E157P454C713232", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Equalities", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27178, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 685.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 685.0, "ID": 27178, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Quinan, Mr Lloyd", "ID": 2118, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lloyd Quinan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Lloyd Quinan (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 754.0, "ContributionID": 713232, "EditedText": "It is interesting that we are once again debating an issue over which, on the majority of the relevant legislation, we have no power. We should congratulate the new Northern Ireland Assembly on the powers that were transferred to it at midnight last night. I wonder whether the Executive has considered contacting the Northern Ireland Assembly, because—courtesy of schedule 5 to the Scotland Act 1998—we have no control over the Equal Opportunities Commission, the Sex Discrimination Act 1975, the Equal Pay Act 1970 or the Disability Discrimination Act 1995. In Northern Ireland—as a result of anti-discrimination legislation—the Fair Employment Commission, the Equal Opportunities Commission, the Commission for Racial Equality for Northern Ireland and the Northern Ireland Disability Council are, as of midnight last night, all part of a unified Equality Commission for Northern Ireland. It strikes me that, on this issue—as on many others—if the Executive was serious about what it wants to do, it would make strenuous representations in Westminster for this Parliament to get parity with the Northern Ireland Assembly. Schedule 5 means that we cannot address some equal opportunity issues for 16 to 18-year-olds, the discrimination in the two levels of the minimum wage, the denial of benefits to 16 and 17-year-olds and—", "EditedTextHTML": "It is interesting that we are once again debating an issue over which, on the majority of the relevant legislation, we have no power. We should congratulate the new Northern Ireland Assembly on the powers that were transferred to it at midnight last night. I wonder whether the Executive has considered contacting the Northern Ireland Assembly, because—courtesy of schedule 5 to the Scotland Act 1998—we have no control over the Equal Opportunities Commission, the Sex Discrimination Act 1975, the Equal Pay Act 1970 or the Disability Discrimination Act 1995. In Northern Ireland—as a result of anti-discrimination legislation—the Fair Employment Commission, the Equal Opportunities Commission, the Commission for Racial Equality for Northern Ireland and the Northern Ireland Disability Council are, as of midnight last night, all part of a unified Equality Commission for Northern Ireland.

It strikes me that, on this issue—as on many others—if the Executive was serious about what it wants to do, it would make strenuous representations in Westminster for this Parliament to get parity with the Northern Ireland Assembly. Schedule 5 means that we cannot address some equal opportunity issues for 16 to 18-year-olds, the discrimination in the two levels of the minimum wage, the denial of benefits to 16 and 17-year-olds and—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4825845+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2140E187P335C713214", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Equalities", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27178, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 685.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 685.0, "ID": 27178, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Rumbles, Mike", "ID": 2140, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Rumbles", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Rumbles: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 711.0, "ContributionID": 713214, "EditedText": "What is the Conservatives' view on the ban on homosexuals in the armed forces?", "EditedTextHTML": "What is the Conservatives' view on the ban on homosexuals in the armed forces?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4825845+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2118E157P454C713234", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Equalities", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27178, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 685.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 685.0, "ID": 27178, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Quinan, Mr Lloyd", "ID": 2118, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lloyd Quinan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Quinan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 758.0, "ContributionID": 713234, "EditedText": "No, thank you.I have here a letter from the insurance and related financial services national training organisation, which says: \"In England there is a National Traineeship programme which provides funding for 16-18 year olds who, for social or educational reasons, wish to start work at that age. We can often obtain from English Training & Enterprise Companies up to £3,000 funding towards a programme which includes Level 2 VQs and professional examinations.\" Those national traineeships are not available in Scotland through local enterprise companies. Similarly in relation to discrimination against women, in England part funding is often available for those over 25, primarily mothers of school-age children, who want to return to work but need to retrain because of information technology and regulatory changes. Funding for that type of programme is not available in Scotland through LECs—", "EditedTextHTML": "No, thank you.

I have here a letter from the insurance and related financial services national training organisation, which says:

\"In England there is a National Traineeship programme which provides funding for 16-18 year olds who, for social or educational reasons, wish to start work at that age. We can often obtain from English Training & Enterprise

Companies up to £3,000 funding towards a programme which includes Level 2 VQs and professional examinations.\"

Those national traineeships are not available in Scotland through local enterprise companies.

Similarly in relation to discrimination against women, in England part funding is often available for those over 25, primarily mothers of school-age children, who want to return to work but need to retrain because of information technology and regulatory changes. Funding for that type of programme is not available in Scotland through LECs—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4825845+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1807E84P267C713227", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Equalities", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27178, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 685.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 685.0, "ID": 27178, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Maclean, Kate", "ID": 1807, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dundee West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kate Maclean", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Kate MacLean: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 741.0, "ContributionID": 713227, "EditedText": "Racial discrimination is probably one of the worst types of discrimination. To deal with it, we must accept that racism is entrenched in every aspect of Scottish life. I do not agree with Jamie McGrigor that there should be no special rules or status, as gender-neutral or colour-blind approaches have not worked. I do not want to omit lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people, who are often overlooked. Currently, they have no protection in law, although I suppose that we could deal with that were we in the situation described in the SNP amendment— but we are not.", "EditedTextHTML": "Racial discrimination is probably one of the worst types of discrimination. To deal with it, we must accept that racism is entrenched in every aspect of Scottish life. I do not agree with Jamie McGrigor that there should be no special rules or status, as gender-neutral or colour-blind approaches have not worked.

I do not want to omit lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people, who are often overlooked. Currently, they have no protection in law, although I suppose that we could deal with that were we in the situation described in the SNP amendment— but we are not.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4825845+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C713228", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Equalities", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27178, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 685.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 685.0, "ID": 27178, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 743.0, "ContributionID": 713228, "EditedText": "Please come to a close now.", "EditedTextHTML": "Please come to a close now.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4825845+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C713226", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Equalities", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27178, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 685.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 685.0, "ID": 27178, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 739.0, "ContributionID": 713226, "EditedText": "Please wind up now.", "EditedTextHTML": "Please wind up now.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1781E188P474C713230", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Equalities", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27178, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 685.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 685.0, "ID": 27178, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McGugan, Irene", "ID": 1781, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Irene McGugan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Irene McGugan (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 748.0, "ContributionID": 713230, "EditedText": "Scottish women are looking to the Scottish Parliament to make real and practical improvements to their lives—I emphasise that these must be real and practical improvements. Despite the Sex Discrimination Act 1975 and the Equal Pay Act 1970, women and girls still experience considerable inequality and disadvantage in social, economic and political life, compared with men and boys. It is therefore more than regrettable that this Parliament has no legislative competence to redress that situation. As well as legislation we need political will, which will involve real commitment. I wish to make one or two suggestions for measures that we could take, as I have not heard much in practical terms from the minister. What about taking some action to avoid gender stereotyping, which starts at a very early age? The Scottish Executive could, if it chose, ensure that more girls take subjects such as computer science and physics, encouraged by specialist science and computer teaching in primary schools. Not only would that prepare girls for enhanced employment opportunities; the economy would benefit from having a larger pool of people with the right skills for the future. By the same token, men should be encouraged into employment in nursery and primary education. As we heard earlier this afternoon in response to a question from Maureen Macmillan, men make up only 1 per cent of that sector. With most single- parent families headed by women, we know that boys in particular benefit from having a caring male role model in their lives. Lawful, positive action under the Sex Discrimination Act 1975 could be used to get more men to train and apply for jobs in the nursery and primary sector. Neither the former Scottish Office nor the Scottish Executive has used lawful, positive action in that way. One of the factors that impacts most on women and their opportunities for equality is having children. Figures that outline economic activity by marital status and economic type by age of youngest dependent child illustrate the point graphically—and provide few examples of flexible working arrangements. Why does not the Scottish Parliament adopt the principles and objectives of the European Commission's 1992 recommendation on child care, which calls on government at all levels, social partners and private organisations to take measures to enable women and men to reconcile the occupational, family and upbringing responsibilities which arise from the care of children? Those are three examples of real and practical initiatives that I commend to the Scottish Executive for its consideration. Here is another. One organisation that is undertaking groundbreaking work on equality and small and medium enterprises is Fair Play. Its aim is to increase opportunities for women to participate in the labour market in a competitive and socially inclusive economy by promoting best practice in equal opportunities. Membership of the Fair Play consortium includes Business Enterprise Scotland, the Scottish Trades Union Congress, Scottish Chambers of Commerce and many other organisations. However, its funding will run out in March 2000 and there is a risk that the expertise that has been built up over the past four years will be lost. An urgent response on the future viability of that organisation is required from the Scottish Executive. Progress in equality of opportunity for women, if it can be traced at all, is very slow. In particular, the lack of information about the lives and needs of certain groups of women in Scotland—such as black and ethnic minority women, older women, women with disabilities and learning difficulties, rural women and lesbians—is striking. It has long been argued by groups such as the Equal Opportunities Commission and Engender that it should be a priority of Government to collect and publish more comprehensive data on all Scottish women and to support research that fills the gaps in our knowledge of women's diverse lives, gives voice to different perspectives and counterbalances short-term priorities and agendas with a long-term strategy for positive change. As far as I can tell, that feature does not exist in the Executive's proposals. The need for accurate statistical information and analysis was underlined time and again by organisations that gave evidence to the Equal Opportunities Committee. Only the development of a truly comprehensive picture and disaggregated data will enable gender-sensitive policy to be made, targets to be set and progress to be monitored. In that respect, I look forward to the Scottish Executive reporting to the Parliament annually on progress towards real and practical gender equality, despite legislative competence on that subject being reserved to Westminster.", "EditedTextHTML": "Scottish women are looking to the Scottish Parliament to make real and practical improvements to their lives—I emphasise that these must be real and practical improvements.

Despite the Sex Discrimination Act 1975 and the Equal Pay Act 1970, women and girls still experience considerable inequality and disadvantage in social, economic and political life, compared with men and boys. It is therefore more than regrettable that this Parliament has no legislative competence to redress that situation. As well as legislation we need political will, which will involve real commitment. I wish to make one or two suggestions for measures that we could take, as I have not heard much in practical terms from the minister.

What about taking some action to avoid gender stereotyping, which starts at a very early age? The Scottish Executive could, if it chose, ensure that more girls take subjects such as computer science and physics, encouraged by specialist science and computer teaching in primary schools. Not only would that prepare girls for enhanced employment opportunities; the economy would benefit from having a larger pool of people with the right skills for the future.

By the same token, men should be encouraged into employment in nursery and primary education. As we heard earlier this afternoon in response to a question from Maureen Macmillan, men make up only 1 per cent of that sector. With most single- parent families headed by women, we know that boys in particular benefit from having a caring male role model in their lives. Lawful, positive action under the Sex Discrimination Act 1975 could be used to get more men to train and apply for jobs in the nursery and primary sector. Neither the former Scottish Office nor the Scottish Executive has used lawful, positive action in that way.

One of the factors that impacts most on women and their opportunities for equality is having children. Figures that outline economic activity by marital status and economic type by age of youngest dependent child illustrate the point graphically—and provide few examples of flexible working arrangements. Why does not the Scottish Parliament adopt the principles and objectives of the European Commission's 1992 recommendation on child care, which calls on government at all levels, social partners and private organisations to take measures to enable women and men to reconcile the occupational, family and upbringing responsibilities which arise from the care of children?

Those are three examples of real and practical initiatives that I commend to the Scottish Executive for its consideration. Here is another. One organisation that is undertaking groundbreaking work on equality and small and medium enterprises is Fair Play. Its aim is to increase opportunities for women to participate in the labour market in a competitive and socially inclusive economy by promoting best practice in equal opportunities. Membership of the Fair Play consortium includes Business Enterprise Scotland, the Scottish Trades Union Congress, Scottish Chambers of Commerce and many other organisations. However, its funding will run out in March 2000 and there is a risk that the expertise that has been built up over the past four years will be lost. An urgent response on the future viability of that organisation is required from the Scottish Executive.

Progress in equality of opportunity for women, if it can be traced at all, is very slow. In particular, the lack of information about the lives and needs of certain groups of women in Scotland—such as black and ethnic minority women, older women, women with disabilities and learning difficulties, rural women and lesbians—is striking. It has long been argued by groups such as the Equal Opportunities Commission and Engender that it should be a priority of Government to collect and publish more comprehensive data on all Scottish women and to support research that fills the gaps in our knowledge of women's diverse lives, gives voice to different perspectives and counterbalances short-term priorities and agendas with a long-term strategy for positive change. As

far as I can tell, that feature does not exist in the Executive's proposals.

The need for accurate statistical information and analysis was underlined time and again by organisations that gave evidence to the Equal Opportunities Committee. Only the development of a truly comprehensive picture and disaggregated data will enable gender-sensitive policy to be made, targets to be set and progress to be monitored. In that respect, I look forward to the Scottish Executive reporting to the Parliament annually on progress towards real and practical gender equality, despite legislative competence on that subject being reserved to Westminster.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2123E103P242C713240", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Equalities", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27178, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 685.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 685.0, "ID": 27178, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Chisholm, Malcolm", "ID": 2123, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh North and Leith" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Malcolm Chisholm", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Malcolm Chisholm: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 771.0, "ContributionID": 713240, "EditedText": "I was disappointed that the Conservative party failed to understand the importance of positive action in trying to create a level playing field where none exists. I was staggered to see the SNP failing to understand the many areas where the Parliament can take decisive action on inequality. I say to Fiona Hyslop that the debate is about race and inequality. The Executive motion says that \"in developing policy and in service design and delivery concern for equality is at the heart of the matter.\" Many services could be mentioned. Best value, which is about service delivery, should have equality at its heart. Perhaps the key words in the motion are \"in developing policy\", as they show that, from the very start, the intention is to build in equal opportunities. That is called mainstreaming; talking about it is not the same as doing it, but an important start has been made. In many cases, it means transforming the main stream—in developing family-friendly employment, for example. That change in society will have revolutionary implications when it is properly implemented. Members of the Equal Opportunities Committee have already heard representations on the policies and bills that are before this Parliament. We were told by the Equal Opportunities Commission, for example, that there should be an explicit duty in the improvement in Scottish education bill to increase equality of opportunity, and that annual school development plans should contain equality measures. I am sure that the Executive will take those suggestions on board. There has also been some criticism of the housing green paper's being colour blind—although I accept that that paper was produced before this Parliament was established. I am sure that the Executive will listen to the concerns of organisations such as Positive Action in Housing and give them a place on the Scottish housing advisory panel. I hope also that the Executive will use its influence with Scottish Homes to persuade it to set up the first black and ethnic minority-led housing association in Scotland. I agree with what Kate MacLean said about public appointments. The Equal Opportunities Committee will be paying special attention to the issue of data, to ensure that all data are disaggregated in terms of gender, race and disability.", "EditedTextHTML": "I was disappointed that the Conservative party failed to understand the importance of positive action in trying to create a

level playing field where none exists. I was staggered to see the SNP failing to understand the many areas where the Parliament can take decisive action on inequality. I say to Fiona Hyslop that the debate is about race and inequality. The Executive motion says that

\"in developing policy and in service design and delivery concern for equality is at the heart of the matter.\"

Many services could be mentioned. Best value, which is about service delivery, should have equality at its heart. Perhaps the key words in the motion are \"in developing policy\", as they show that, from the very start, the intention is to build in equal opportunities. That is called mainstreaming; talking about it is not the same as doing it, but an important start has been made. In many cases, it means transforming the main stream—in developing family-friendly employment, for example. That change in society will have revolutionary implications when it is properly implemented.

Members of the Equal Opportunities Committee have already heard representations on the policies and bills that are before this Parliament. We were told by the Equal Opportunities Commission, for example, that there should be an explicit duty in the improvement in Scottish education bill to increase equality of opportunity, and that annual school development plans should contain equality measures. I am sure that the Executive will take those suggestions on board. There has also been some criticism of the housing green paper's being colour blind—although I accept that that paper was produced before this Parliament was established. I am sure that the Executive will listen to the concerns of organisations such as Positive Action in Housing and give them a place on the Scottish housing advisory panel. I hope also that the Executive will use its influence with Scottish Homes to persuade it to set up the first black and ethnic minority-led housing association in Scotland.

I agree with what Kate MacLean said about public appointments. The Equal Opportunities Committee will be paying special attention to the issue of data, to ensure that all data are disaggregated in terms of gender, race and disability.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713241", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Equalities", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27178, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 685.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 685.0, "ID": 27178, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 773.0, "ContributionID": 713241, "EditedText": "I am grateful to the member, as we are running a little behind schedule. I call Robert Brown.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful to the member, as we are running a little behind schedule. I call Robert Brown.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C713250", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Equalities", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27178, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 685.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 685.0, "ID": 27178, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Communities (Ms Wendy Alexander): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 795.0, "ContributionID": 713250, "EditedText": "This has been a depressing debate for those who have sat through all of it, so let me try to avoid the management speak and get to the heart of the matter—Interruption. I hope that it will not be for the first time, but let me try. There are many individuals in all parties who share the commitment of the coalition parties to advance equalities. Jamie McGrigor and Michael McMahon spoke eloquently about the inspiration of Martin Luther King and, in her opening comments, Jackie Baillie began by highlighting the nature of our opportunity—not about what we cannot do, but about what we can do. We are a new Parliament and a new Executive, and we have the opportunity to enable Scotland to be at the cutting edge—to lead the field—and for the first time to map out our own route. Let me pause and be clear before the barracking begins. The greatest risk today is that beyond this chamber, people will view this debate as another exercise in political correctness. When they make that charge, they do not make it against any one political party in this chamber; but against Parliament as a whole. The challenge for all of us is to convince our fellow Scots of the need for urgent action. Margaret Curran mentioned the debate surrounding teenage pregnancies, thereby rooting this debate in the real world. It is time to look to the real world.", "EditedTextHTML": "This has been a depressing debate for those who have sat through all of it, so let me try to avoid the management speak and get to the heart of the matter—[Interruption.] I hope that it will not be for the first time, but let me try.

There are many individuals in all parties who share the commitment of the coalition parties to advance equalities. Jamie McGrigor and Michael McMahon spoke eloquently about the inspiration of Martin Luther King and, in her opening comments, Jackie Baillie began by highlighting the nature of our opportunity—not about what we cannot do, but about what we can do. We are a new Parliament and a new Executive, and we have the opportunity to enable Scotland to be at the cutting edge—to lead the field—and for the first time to map out our own route.

Let me pause and be clear before the barracking begins. The greatest risk today is that beyond this chamber, people will view this debate as another exercise in political correctness. When they make that charge, they do not make it against any one political party in this chamber; but against Parliament as a whole. The challenge for all of us is to convince our fellow Scots of the need for urgent action.

Margaret Curran mentioned the debate surrounding teenage pregnancies, thereby rooting this debate in the real world. It is time to look to the real world.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2118E157P454C713251", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Equalities", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27178, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 685.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 685.0, "ID": 27178, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Quinan, Mr Lloyd", "ID": 2118, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lloyd Quinan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Quinan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 797.0, "ContributionID": 713251, "EditedText": "Someone had to do it.", "EditedTextHTML": "Someone had to do it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C713252", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Equalities", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27178, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 685.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 685.0, "ID": 27178, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 799.0, "ContributionID": 713252, "EditedText": "People suggested, as did Lloyd Quinan, that we had not dealt with the issue of sectarianism. Is there anyone in this chamber who thinks that dealing with the issue of sectarianism in Scotland is principally about changing the law, rather than about changing attitudes? On the day when a few hundred miles from here people have had the courage to change attitudes and minds, we should be clear that the issue is one of changing attitudes.", "EditedTextHTML": "People suggested, as did Lloyd Quinan, that we had not dealt with the issue of sectarianism. Is there anyone in this chamber who thinks that dealing with the issue of sectarianism in Scotland is principally about changing the law, rather than about changing attitudes? On the day when a few hundred miles from here people have had the courage to change attitudes and minds, we should be clear that the issue is one of changing attitudes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2118E157P454C713255", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Equalities", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27178, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 685.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 685.0, "ID": 27178, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Quinan, Mr Lloyd", "ID": 2118, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lloyd Quinan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Quinan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 805.0, "ContributionID": 713255, "EditedText": "Will the minister withdraw the remark?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister withdraw the remark?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713257", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Equalities", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27178, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 685.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 685.0, "ID": 27178, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 809.0, "ContributionID": 713257, "EditedText": "Order. Settle down, please.", "EditedTextHTML": "Order. Settle down, please.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713278", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27179, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 821.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 821.0, "ID": 27179, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 847.0, "ContributionID": 713278, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713263", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27179, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 821.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 821.0, "ID": 27179, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 823.0, "ContributionID": 713263, "EditedText": "We come to decision time. I must put six questions to the chamber. The first question is, that amendment S1M-327.1, in the name of Iain Gray, seeking to amend motion S1M-327, in the name of Mr John Swinney, on the plight of Scotland's pensioners, be agreed to. Are we agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "We come to decision time. I must put six questions to the chamber.

The first question is, that amendment S1M-327.1, in the name of Iain Gray, seeking to amend motion S1M-327, in the name of Mr John Swinney, on the plight of Scotland's pensioners, be agreed to. Are we agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713282", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27179, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 821.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 821.0, "ID": 27179, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 852.0, "ContributionID": 713282, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713266", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27179, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 821.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 821.0, "ID": 27179, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 829.0, "ContributionID": 713266, "EditedText": "FOR Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)(LD)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)AGAINST Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)ABSTENTIONS Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)
(LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)

AGAINST

Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)

ABSTENTIONS

Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713268", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27179, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 821.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 821.0, "ID": 27179, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 832.0, "ContributionID": 713268, "EditedText": "Amendment agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713272", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27179, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 821.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 821.0, "ID": 27179, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 839.0, "ContributionID": 713272, "EditedText": "FOR Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)(LD)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)AGAINST Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)ABSTENTIONS Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)
(LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)

AGAINST

Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)

ABSTENTIONS

Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713275", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27179, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 821.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 821.0, "ID": 27179, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 843.0, "ContributionID": 713275, "EditedText": "Resolved,", "EditedTextHTML": "Resolved,

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713291", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27179, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 821.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 821.0, "ID": 27179, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 867.0, "ContributionID": 713291, "EditedText": "The result of the division is: For 16, Against 94, Abstentions 0.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result of the division is: For 16, Against 94, Abstentions 0.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713298", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27179, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 821.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 821.0, "ID": 27179, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 879.0, "ContributionID": 713298, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2188E70P92C713310", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Freight and Passenger Terminal (Fife)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27180, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 881.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 881.0, "ID": 27180, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harper, Robin", "ID": 2188, "PartyName": "Scottish Green Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Green", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robin Harper", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robin Harper (Lothians) (Green): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 905.0, "ContributionID": 713310, "EditedText": "I apologise if I seem to be going off at a slight tangent at the start of my very short speech, but members will see the reason for that by the time I get to the end. By the way, if Mr Raffan had taken the train to Dundee—as I did—he would have got there in time. When I read Bruce Crawford's motion, I felt that it was very much concerned about jobs in Fife. I want to talk about what might be another huge opportunity for Rosyth. At the moment, George Lyon is on his way back to Kintyre to promote Campbeltown as a construction base for wind turbines. The offshore environment on the west coast is very extreme, although it offers the biggest wave and wind energy resource in Europe. Tomorrow, at the Scottish Renewables Forum conference, I will spend five minutes advertising the fact that a number of MSPs are interested in setting up a Scottish parliamentary renewables group to press that issue. Renewable energy is the only form of energy over which we have control. Denmark intends to raise 30 per cent of its energy from combined wind-wave and mostly offshore renewables by 2010.", "EditedTextHTML": "I apologise if I seem to be going off at a slight tangent at the start of my very short speech, but members will see the reason for that by the time I get to the end. By the way, if Mr Raffan had taken the train to Dundee—as I did—he would have got there in time.

When I read Bruce Crawford's motion, I felt that it was very much concerned about jobs in Fife. I want to talk about what might be another huge opportunity for Rosyth. At the moment, George Lyon is on his way back to Kintyre to promote Campbeltown as a construction base for wind turbines. The offshore environment on the west coast is very extreme, although it offers the biggest wave and wind energy resource in Europe. Tomorrow, at the Scottish Renewables Forum conference, I will spend five minutes advertising the fact that a number of MSPs are interested in setting up a Scottish parliamentary renewables group to press that issue. Renewable energy is the only form of energy over which we have control. Denmark intends to raise 30 per cent of its energy from combined wind-wave and mostly offshore renewables by 2010.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2188E70P92C713312", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Freight and Passenger Terminal (Fife)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27180, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 881.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 881.0, "ID": 27180, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harper, Robin", "ID": 2188, "PartyName": "Scottish Green Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Green", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robin Harper", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robin Harper: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 909.0, "ContributionID": 713312, "EditedText": "I thoroughly concur. I have to tell members that that intervention was not a plant. The North sea is clearly an environment with huge possibilities for wind and wave energy to which we should be turning our attention. Of all facilities available, Rosyth docks presents itself as an ideal for the manufacture and floating out of offshore, wind, wave and combined wind-wave installations that can connect easily and directly into the Scottish grid. That is the problem with such installations on the west coast. Such a scheme could have huge possibilities for Scotland and Europe when allied with the development proposed in the motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thoroughly concur. I have to tell members that that intervention was not a plant.

The North sea is clearly an environment with huge possibilities for wind and wave energy to which we should be turning our attention. Of all facilities available, Rosyth docks presents itself as an ideal for the manufacture and floating out of offshore, wind, wave and combined wind-wave installations that can connect easily and directly into the Scottish grid. That is the problem with such installations on the west coast. Such a scheme could have huge possibilities for Scotland and Europe when allied with the development proposed in the motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1876E194P490C713313", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Freight and Passenger Terminal (Fife)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27180, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 881.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 881.0, "ID": 27180, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Marwick, Tricia", "ID": 1876, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tricia Marwick", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tricia Marwick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 912.0, "ContributionID": 713313, "EditedText": "I also congratulate Bruce Crawford on lodging the motion. I regret Keith Harding's mean-minded and mean-spirited comments. If ever there was a reason for proportional representation in local government, he has just outlined it. As he well knows, the Scottish National party in Fife has more votes than the Liberal Democrats.", "EditedTextHTML": "I also congratulate Bruce Crawford on lodging the motion. I regret Keith Harding's mean-minded and mean-spirited comments. If ever there was a reason for proportional representation in local government, he has just outlined it. As he well knows, the Scottish National party in Fife has more votes than the Liberal Democrats.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C713325", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Freight and Passenger Terminal (Fife)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27180, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 881.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 881.0, "ID": 27180, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bruce Crawford: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 937.0, "ContributionID": 713325, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C713327", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Freight and Passenger Terminal (Fife)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27180, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 881.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 881.0, "ID": 27180, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bruce Crawford: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 941.0, "ContributionID": 713327, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C713331", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Freight and Passenger Terminal (Fife)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27180, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 881.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 881.0, "ID": 27180, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bruce Crawford: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 949.0, "ContributionID": 713331, "EditedText": "She referred to a project steering group.", "EditedTextHTML": "She referred to a project steering group.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713341", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Freight and Passenger Terminal (Fife)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27180, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 881.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 881.0, "ID": 27180, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 969.0, "ContributionID": 713341, "EditedText": "Meeting closed at 17:41.", "EditedTextHTML": "Meeting closed at 17:41.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712875", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Thursday 2 December 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 27148, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 27148, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 2.0, "ContributionID": 712875, "EditedText": "THE PRESIDING OFFICER opened the meeting at 09:31", "EditedTextHTML": "[THE PRESIDING OFFICER opened the meeting at 09:31]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C712880", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 13.0, "ContributionID": 712880, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C712881", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 15.0, "ContributionID": 712881, "EditedText": "I am trying to abide by the Presiding Officer's ruling that speeches must be brief, but I will let Phil intervene one more time.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am trying to abide by the Presiding Officer's ruling that speeches must be brief, but I will let Phil intervene one more time.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C712886", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 25.0, "ContributionID": 712886, "EditedText": "On a point of order. Why should interventions be discouraged? They are part of healthy debate.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. Why should interventions be discouraged? They are part of healthy debate.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2033E106P139C712894", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gray, Iain", "ID": 2033, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Pentlands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Iain Gray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Iain Gray: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 42.0, "ContributionID": 712894, "EditedText": "If Mr Neil had genuinely listened to organisations that represent pensioners and older people, he would have found that older people— which means people more than 50 years old, an age that I rapidly approach, never mind the Presiding Officer—do not view this issue as being solely about pensions. On every occasion that I have spoken to older people, I have found that they mention the report of the Royal Commission on Long-Term Care, which got a passing reference at the end of Mr Neil's speech. It seems appropriate to respond to it in this debate on older people. Sir Stewart Sutherland's report ably analyses the problem that he and the other members of the commission identified. He powerfully expresses the views of older people over the funding of long- term care and he defuses the mythical demographic time bomb that is so often a feature of the debate around old people. When I took up this post, I asked what older people wanted. I was told that they wanted to stay in their own homes and be independent as long as possible. I asked for the evidence and I was shown it. Better still, I asked older people themselves. They all said the same thing. I asked myself what I would want, and the answer was the same. We all want to live in our own homes for as long as possible, perhaps moving to more suitable homes. One of Sutherland's recommendations is that more people should be able to receive high- quality care that allows them to stay in their own homes. There are proportionately fewer people in care homes in Scotland than in the UK as a whole. There are over 340,000 people over the age of 75 in this country, 33,000 of whom are in care homes. If we are to benefit older people—both those who need care towards the end of their lives and those who do not—we must ensure access to flexible and imaginative home-care services should they need them. Those services should enable them to get up or go to bed when they want and should be available seven days a week, not just Monday to Friday.", "EditedTextHTML": "If Mr Neil had genuinely listened to organisations that represent pensioners and older people, he would have found that older people— which means people more than 50 years old, an age that I rapidly approach, never mind the Presiding Officer—do not view this issue as being solely about pensions. On every occasion that I have spoken to older people, I have found that they mention the report of the Royal Commission on Long-Term Care, which got a passing reference at the end of Mr Neil's speech. It seems appropriate to respond to it in this debate on older people.

Sir Stewart Sutherland's report ably analyses the problem that he and the other members of the commission identified. He powerfully expresses the views of older people over the funding of long- term care and he defuses the mythical demographic time bomb that is so often a feature of the debate around old people.

When I took up this post, I asked what older people wanted. I was told that they wanted to stay in their own homes and be independent as long as possible. I asked for the evidence and I was shown it. Better still, I asked older people themselves. They all said the same thing. I asked myself what I would want, and the answer was the same. We all want to live in our own homes for as long as possible, perhaps moving to more suitable homes. One of Sutherland's recommendations is that more people should be able to receive high- quality care that allows them to stay in their own homes.

There are proportionately fewer people in care homes in Scotland than in the UK as a whole. There are over 340,000 people over the age of 75 in this country, 33,000 of whom are in care homes. If we are to benefit older people—both those who need care towards the end of their lives and those who do not—we must ensure access to flexible and imaginative home-care services should they need them. Those services should enable them to get up or go to bed when they want and should be available seven days a week, not just Monday to Friday.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6701144+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1821E295P538C712895", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Mrs Margaret", "ID": 1821, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Moray" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Margaret Ewing (Moray) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 44.0, "ContributionID": 712895, "EditedText": "We all agree with the concept of independent living, but if it is to be achieved there will have to be an injection of capital into community care services and an eradication of the bureaucracy that families face when trying to ensure that care is available.", "EditedTextHTML": "We all agree with the concept of independent living, but if it is to be achieved there will have to be an injection of capital into community care services and an eradication of the bureaucracy that families face when trying to ensure that care is available.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6701144+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2105E44P74C712898", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harding, Mr Keith", "ID": 2105, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Harding", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Keith Harding (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 51.0, "ContributionID": 712898, "EditedText": "I would like to the join the previous two speakers in welcoming the pensioners who have come to listen to today's debate. I am happy to move the Conservative amendment to the SNP motion on the elderly. There are many areas where we can agree with the SNP, particularly in relation to Labour's record. In the run-up to the previous election, Labour made great promises to the elderly and built up their expectations about what Labour would do for them when it came to power. The reality has been rather different—yet another in a series of Labour letdowns. The most damaging action of the Labour Government was the decision to abolish dividend tax credits. As former pensions minister Frank Field has admitted, that decision wiped more than £2 billion off the value of pension funds in one year. At least he has been prepared to admit how much damage has been done by that move. I will be interested to hear if the ministers of the Scottish Executive will defend that decision. Sadly, I fear that we will be treated to the usual litany of lies about Labour's record. However, the facts speak for themselves. Despite being elected on the back of Tony Blair's promise not to increase tax at all—his words, not mine—taxes will increase by £40 billion over the Parliament, which is the equivalent of £1,500 for everyone in the country. The announcements on pensioners' TV licences and winter fuel allowances are very welcome, particularly for those people who are already pensioners. However, new pensioners will still be £500 worse off, as a result of the abolition of the age-related married couples allowance. Once again, Gordon Brown is giving with one hand and taking away with the other. Labour did not have the courage to increase income tax; instead it has increased taxes by stealth, hoping that no one will notice. The abolition of dividend tax credits is the most despicable stealth tax of all. Labour is relying on the fact that people will realise what they have lost only when they retire and it is too late. This is the first time that people's pension savings have been taxed since 1921 and is a direct contradiction of Labour's manifesto pledge to \"support and strengthen the framework for occupational pensions\". That short-sighted policy will have far-reaching consequences. Unless people up their contributions now, they will find that their retirement incomes are lower than they expected. That will leave far more people dependent on the state and is typical of Labour's bungled welfare reform. Labour boasts about adopting joined-up government, but the left hand does not know what the right hand is doing. Labour has presided over a shocking level of agism in the national health service. A recent Age Concern survey highlighted the fact that one in 20 people over the age of 65 has been refused treatment by the NHS. Elderly patients are often forced to go private, experience longer waiting times and are not treated with the respect that they deserve. That backs up earlier evidence that women over the age of 65 are not routinely invited for breast screening, despite the fact that 63 per cent of all deaths from breast cancer occur in women in that age group. People over the age of 60 are also refused heart transplants as a matter of national policy. That is all typical of Labour, which says one thing and does another. It promised to conduct an audit of national health service policies and priorities that discriminated against older people, but that was yet another example of Labour pretending to care about the plight of the elderly, then doing nothing once it got into power. We would end discrimination and ensure that all patients were treated according to clinical need. Those are just two examples of the way in which Labour has failed the elderly. Before we are accused of not addressing the other issues, my Conservative colleagues will later address the points that the minister raised.", "EditedTextHTML": "I would like to the join the previous two speakers in welcoming the pensioners who have come to listen to today's debate.

I am happy to move the Conservative amendment to the SNP motion on the elderly. There are many areas where we can agree with the SNP, particularly in relation to Labour's record. In the run-up to the previous election, Labour

made great promises to the elderly and built up their expectations about what Labour would do for them when it came to power. The reality has been rather different—yet another in a series of Labour letdowns.

The most damaging action of the Labour Government was the decision to abolish dividend tax credits. As former pensions minister Frank Field has admitted, that decision wiped more than £2 billion off the value of pension funds in one year. At least he has been prepared to admit how much damage has been done by that move. I will be interested to hear if the ministers of the Scottish Executive will defend that decision. Sadly, I fear that we will be treated to the usual litany of lies about Labour's record.

However, the facts speak for themselves. Despite being elected on the back of Tony Blair's promise not to increase tax at all—his words, not mine—taxes will increase by £40 billion over the Parliament, which is the equivalent of £1,500 for everyone in the country. The announcements on pensioners' TV licences and winter fuel allowances are very welcome, particularly for those people who are already pensioners. However, new pensioners will still be £500 worse off, as a result of the abolition of the age-related married couples allowance. Once again, Gordon Brown is giving with one hand and taking away with the other.

Labour did not have the courage to increase income tax; instead it has increased taxes by stealth, hoping that no one will notice. The abolition of dividend tax credits is the most despicable stealth tax of all. Labour is relying on the fact that people will realise what they have lost only when they retire and it is too late. This is the first time that people's pension savings have been taxed since 1921 and is a direct contradiction of Labour's manifesto pledge to

\"support and strengthen the framework for occupational pensions\".

That short-sighted policy will have far-reaching consequences. Unless people up their contributions now, they will find that their retirement incomes are lower than they expected. That will leave far more people dependent on the state and is typical of Labour's bungled welfare reform. Labour boasts about adopting joined-up government, but the left hand does not know what the right hand is doing.

Labour has presided over a shocking level of agism in the national health service. A recent Age Concern survey highlighted the fact that one in 20 people over the age of 65 has been refused treatment by the NHS. Elderly patients are often forced to go private, experience longer waiting times and are not treated with the respect that they deserve. That backs up earlier evidence that women over the age of 65 are not routinely invited for breast screening, despite the fact that 63 per cent of all deaths from breast cancer occur in women in that age group. People over the age of 60 are also refused heart transplants as a matter of national policy.

That is all typical of Labour, which says one thing and does another. It promised to conduct an audit of national health service policies and priorities that discriminated against older people, but that was yet another example of Labour pretending to care about the plight of the elderly, then doing nothing once it got into power. We would end discrimination and ensure that all patients were treated according to clinical need.

Those are just two examples of the way in which Labour has failed the elderly. Before we are accused of not addressing the other issues, my Conservative colleagues will later address the points that the minister raised.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6701144+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C712904", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 63.0, "ContributionID": 712904, "EditedText": "Mr Harding, there is a point of order.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Harding, there is a point of order.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C712906", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 67.0, "ContributionID": 712906, "EditedText": "Not on a point of order, but if you want to intervene on Mr Harding's speech—", "EditedTextHTML": "Not on a point of order, but if you want to intervene on Mr Harding's speech—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C712910", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 75.0, "ContributionID": 712910, "EditedText": "He said that he was in favour.", "EditedTextHTML": "He said that he was in favour.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2140E187P335C712916", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Rumbles, Mike", "ID": 2140, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Rumbles", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Mike Rumbles (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD) rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 87.0, "ContributionID": 712916, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2185E120P328C712927", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Brown, Robert", "ID": 2185, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robert Brown", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robert Brown: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 110.0, "ContributionID": 712927, "EditedText": "I thank Mrs Ewing for her intervention, but ask her why the SNP in Westminster did not see fit to give its backing to the various early-day motions tabled by the Liberal Democrats on such matters. SNP members identify, for example, the £8.43 billion surplus on the balance of the national insurance fund. We urge that that should be used to restore the link between the basic pension and average earnings for the remaining years of this Parliament. That is a practical solution to what is a crucial problem, but it is not being supported as yet, as I understand, by a single SNP member. Social issues such as the plight of pensioners define the party battle at Westminster and the alternatives that the parties offer. I return to my earlier point: it is the individual quality of life in our society that counts. It is in health care, community care, housing, social services and community facilities where the responsibilities of this Parliament lie, responsibilities which are gradually being met by the Scottish Executive through the programme for government. In health—Alex Neil touched on this point earlier—the report published by the Townsend Centre for International Poverty Research yesterday shows the extent of the challenge, with six of Glasgow's 10 constituencies holding a top 10 position in the list of the least healthy places in Britain. The Executive's targeted strategy to make measurable progress on reducing rates of mortality due to cancer and coronary heart disease is the right way forward, because of this Parliament's crucial ability to take a holistic, cross-cutting approach to such matters. As part of the recent warm homes week, I was privileged to attend a house in Rutherglen, in my regional constituency, which happened to belong to an old acquaintance. The house was undergoing a package of work under the arrangements with Heatwise, which involved high- quality insulation work, including wall cavity insulation, work on windows and doors and advice. The heating system had been installed by the lady herself, but, in that scheme, many of the heating systems had been installed under the leasing arrangement with Scottish Power, which John Young will remember from his days on the City of Glasgow District Council. That was an excellent initiative, which was a cost-effective way of improving heating standards and reducing heating costs.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank Mrs Ewing for her intervention, but ask her why the SNP in Westminster did not see fit to give its backing to the various early-day motions tabled by the Liberal Democrats on such matters.

SNP members identify, for example, the £8.43 billion surplus on the balance of the national insurance fund. We urge that that should be used to restore the link between the basic pension and average earnings for the remaining years of this Parliament. That is a practical solution to what is a crucial problem, but it is not being supported as yet, as I understand, by a single SNP member. Social issues such as the plight of pensioners define the party battle at Westminster and the alternatives that the parties offer.

I return to my earlier point: it is the individual quality of life in our society that counts. It is in health care, community care, housing, social services and community facilities where the responsibilities of this Parliament lie, responsibilities which are gradually being met by the Scottish Executive through the programme for government.

In health—Alex Neil touched on this point earlier—the report published by the Townsend Centre for International Poverty Research yesterday shows the extent of the challenge, with six of Glasgow's 10 constituencies holding a top

10 position in the list of the least healthy places in Britain.

The Executive's targeted strategy to make measurable progress on reducing rates of mortality due to cancer and coronary heart disease is the right way forward, because of this Parliament's crucial ability to take a holistic, cross-cutting approach to such matters.

As part of the recent warm homes week, I was privileged to attend a house in Rutherglen, in my regional constituency, which happened to belong to an old acquaintance. The house was undergoing a package of work under the arrangements with Heatwise, which involved high- quality insulation work, including wall cavity insulation, work on windows and doors and advice. The heating system had been installed by the lady herself, but, in that scheme, many of the heating systems had been installed under the leasing arrangement with Scottish Power, which John Young will remember from his days on the City of Glasgow District Council. That was an excellent initiative, which was a cost-effective way of improving heating standards and reducing heating costs.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1876E194P490C712930", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Marwick, Tricia", "ID": 1876, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tricia Marwick", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tricia Marwick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 116.0, "ContributionID": 712930, "EditedText": "Will Robert Brown give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "

Will Robert Brown give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C712939", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 136.0, "ContributionID": 712939, "EditedText": "Is Malcolm Chisholm aware that the average life expectancy of the Scottish male is 74, but that a person does not qualify for the free television licence until they are 75?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is Malcolm Chisholm aware that the average life expectancy of the Scottish male is 74, but that a person does not qualify for the free television licence until they are 75?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2123E103P242C712940", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Chisholm, Malcolm", "ID": 2123, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh North and Leith" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Malcolm Chisholm", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Malcolm Chisholm: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 138.0, "ContributionID": 712940, "EditedText": "There are many pensioners—300,000 was the figure that I cited— who will benefit in Scotland. There is also the minimum income guarantee, which means that, since 1997, the lowest pension that someone can receive will by next April have risen by £15 for a single pensioner and by £20 for a couple. That said, there is a problem in means-testing pensioners. In the welfare reform debate, a balance must be struck between universal and targeted benefits. The problem is greater for pensioners than for families. The working families tax credit will work well, as it involves targeting and a taper. The fundamental problem in applying the same model to pensioners is that hundreds of thousands of pensioners throughout the United Kingdom do not claim income support. A further problem—one that we all encounter regularly in our constituencies—is that many pensioners live just above the income support level. I do not think that it is right to continue with pension increases of 75p, or thereabouts, for pensioners in that group. That is a challenge for the Government, as it recognises. The pension increase last year was combined with the £100 fuel allowance and the pension increase this year is combined with the free television licences. Many of the Executive's initiatives are welcome and within the power of this Parliament. The warm deal is one such initiative. Like many members, I visited a pensioners' home this week. The £37 million for the warm deal, over the next three years, will be welcomed. However, one of the people in the home brought to my attention the fact that, unless a pensioner is claiming income support, they do not receive that money, which excludes a lot of people. We must investigate the implementation of a taper for that provision. The minister mentioned many of the other initiatives that the Executive is implementing, particularly in relation to community care. There is the money that I have mentioned and the welcome regulation. We debated the carers strategy last week, which is an important development. I also welcome what the minister said today about long- term care, although I hope that the Sutherland report will be implemented in full, as it proposes the right balance between universal and targeted benefits. Time is out, so I cannot go on to talk about transport and crime. However, the fact that I even mention those subjects illustrates the many areas over which this Parliament has control, which will benefit pensioners. I urge the Minister for Transport and the Environment—who was sitting near to me a minute ago—to investigate a national concessionary travel scheme for pensioners.", "EditedTextHTML": "There are many pensioners—300,000 was the figure that I cited— who will benefit in Scotland. There is also the minimum income guarantee, which means that, since 1997, the lowest pension that someone can receive will by next April have risen by £15 for a single pensioner and by £20 for a couple.

That said, there is a problem in means-testing pensioners. In the welfare reform debate, a balance must be struck between universal and targeted benefits. The problem is greater for pensioners than for families. The working families tax credit will work well, as it involves targeting and a taper. The fundamental problem in applying the same model to pensioners is that hundreds of thousands of pensioners throughout the United Kingdom do not claim income support.

A further problem—one that we all encounter regularly in our constituencies—is that many pensioners live just above the income support level. I do not think that it is right to continue with pension increases of 75p, or thereabouts, for pensioners in that group. That is a challenge for the Government, as it recognises. The pension increase last year was combined with the £100 fuel allowance and the pension increase this year is combined with the free television licences.

Many of the Executive's initiatives are welcome and within the power of this Parliament. The warm deal is one such initiative. Like many members, I visited a pensioners' home this week. The £37 million for the warm deal, over the next three years, will be welcomed. However, one of the people in the home brought to my attention the fact that, unless a pensioner is claiming income support, they do not receive that money, which excludes a lot of people. We must investigate the implementation of a taper for that provision.

The minister mentioned many of the other initiatives that the Executive is implementing, particularly in relation to community care. There is the money that I have mentioned and the welcome

regulation. We debated the carers strategy last week, which is an important development. I also welcome what the minister said today about long- term care, although I hope that the Sutherland report will be implemented in full, as it proposes the right balance between universal and targeted benefits.

Time is out, so I cannot go on to talk about transport and crime. However, the fact that I even mention those subjects illustrates the many areas over which this Parliament has control, which will benefit pensioners. I urge the Minister for Transport and the Environment—who was sitting near to me a minute ago—to investigate a national concessionary travel scheme for pensioners.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C712941", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan (Glasgow) (SSP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 141.0, "ContributionID": 712941, "EditedText": "Malcolm Chisholm opened his remarks by putting this discussion into the context of the disgraceful rise in poverty between 1979 and 1997, using the figures that are available to us. As a socialist, I would like to put the discussion in another context. I ask: what type of country do we live in? Do we live in a poor country, an undeveloped country, or do we live in a rich country? Do we live in a country that is rich in natural resources and physical resources in the form of oil, gas, electricity, land and water? If the answer to that question is yes, why—according to the report on poverty in Scotland by the Scottish Poverty Information Unit at Glasgow Caledonian University—are 320,000 pensioners in Scotland living on or below the income support poverty line? Why, in a country that is so rich in all those resources, are there 320,000 poor pensioners? As a socialist, I argue that, far from deserving congratulations, the UK Government, in the two and a half years that it has been in power, has not begun in a significant or fundamental way to address the real problem in this country. That problem is the distribution of wealth and power. The recent report from Bristol University says it in black and white—regardless of the laudable aims of the Government, unless it is willing fundamentally to redistribute wealth in Britain, it will not be able to tackle poverty. That is the problem that confronts us in Parliament today, and that is why I support the SNP motion. That motion makes it clear that the real problem for the majority of pensioners is their income. That income was severely reduced in the dark years under the Tories, who, in 1980, made the disgraceful decision to break the earnings link for pension uprating. That has left single pensioners some £27 a week worse off and pensioner couples some £41 a week worse off. Is it too much to ask the national Government at least to restore that link for basic state pensions in order to give our pensioners a wee bit of dignity? Malcolm Chisholm and others have mentioned the winter fuel allowance and the free television licences. I am against means-testing—pensioners should qualify for a range of benefits because they are pensioners, not because they are poor pensioners. Free television licences are not means-tested—they are age-tested. They go only to those aged more than 75 years. That is a ridiculous decision. Why should not all pensioners get a free television licence, given that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has a £12 billion surplus and there is an £8 billion surplus through national insurance? I ask Parliament to support the motion that has been moved by Alex Neil because it makes the point that what is required is an increase in the basic state pension. To deliver that, the Parliament will have to return time and again to those who really run this country. Perhaps the pensioners who are here have come to the wrong building. If they wanted to go to the building in which the real power is wielded and where the men and women of real power sit, they should have gone across the road to the Bank of Scotland. That is where the real power lies in this country. It is time for the Parliament to question whether we should own and control democratically the resources in our country.", "EditedTextHTML": "Malcolm Chisholm opened his remarks by putting this discussion into the context of the disgraceful rise in poverty between 1979 and 1997, using the figures that are available to us.

As a socialist, I would like to put the discussion in another context. I ask: what type of country do we live in? Do we live in a poor country, an undeveloped country, or do we live in a rich country? Do we live in a country that is rich in natural resources and physical resources in the form of oil, gas, electricity, land and water? If the answer to that question is yes, why—according to the report on poverty in Scotland by the Scottish Poverty Information Unit at Glasgow Caledonian University—are 320,000 pensioners in Scotland living on or below the income support poverty line? Why, in a country that is so rich in all those resources, are there 320,000 poor pensioners?

As a socialist, I argue that, far from deserving congratulations, the UK Government, in the two and a half years that it has been in power, has not begun in a significant or fundamental way to address the real problem in this country. That problem is the distribution of wealth and power. The recent report from Bristol University says it in black and white—regardless of the laudable aims of the Government, unless it is willing fundamentally to redistribute wealth in Britain, it will not be able to tackle poverty. That is the problem that confronts us in Parliament today, and that is why I support the SNP motion.

That motion makes it clear that the real problem for the majority of pensioners is their income. That income was severely reduced in the dark years under the Tories, who, in 1980, made the disgraceful decision to break the earnings link for pension uprating. That has left single pensioners some £27 a week worse off and pensioner couples some £41 a week worse off. Is it too much to ask the national Government at least to restore that link for basic state pensions in order to give our pensioners a wee bit of dignity?

Malcolm Chisholm and others have mentioned the winter fuel allowance and the free television licences. I am against means-testing—pensioners should qualify for a range of benefits because they are pensioners, not because they are poor pensioners. Free television licences are not means-tested—they are age-tested. They go only to those aged more than 75 years. That is a ridiculous decision. Why should not all pensioners get a free television licence, given that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has a £12 billion surplus and there is an £8 billion surplus through national insurance?

I ask Parliament to support the motion that has been moved by Alex Neil because it makes the point that what is required is an increase in the basic state pension. To deliver that, the Parliament will have to return time and again to those who really run this country. Perhaps the pensioners who are here have come to the wrong building. If they wanted to go to the building in which the real power is wielded and where the men and women of real power sit, they should have gone across the road to the Bank of Scotland. That is where the real power lies in this country. It is time for the Parliament to question whether we should own and control democratically the resources in our country.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C712983", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 239.0, "ContributionID": 712983, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1876E194P490C712949", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Marwick, Tricia", "ID": 1876, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tricia Marwick", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tricia Marwick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 160.0, "ContributionID": 712949, "EditedText": "I look forward to John McAllion and those of his colleagues who applauded his speech joining the SNP in supporting the motion. In his opening statement, the minister said that pensioners wanted to stay in their own homes. He is absolutely right. He did not address the fact that 119,000 pensioners in Scotland live in cold, damp homes. It is a pity that he is leaving—he could learn something if he stayed.", "EditedTextHTML": "I look forward to John McAllion and those of his colleagues who applauded his speech joining the SNP in supporting the motion.

In his opening statement, the minister said that pensioners wanted to stay in their own homes. He is absolutely right. He did not address the fact that 119,000 pensioners in Scotland live in cold, damp homes. It is a pity that he is leaving—he could learn something if he stayed.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2033E106P139C712950", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gray, Iain", "ID": 2033, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Pentlands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Iain Gray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Iain Gray: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 162.0, "ContributionID": 712950, "EditedText": "I am not leaving.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am not leaving.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1876E194P490C712951", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Marwick, Tricia", "ID": 1876, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tricia Marwick", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tricia Marwick: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 164.0, "ContributionID": 712951, "EditedText": "Fuel poverty is a particular problem for elderly people. According to the Scottish Poverty Information Unit, Scottish pensioners make up almost half the fuel poor. The reasons are twofold: first, household incomes are not enough to pay for adequate heating; secondly, the condition of houses means that they are almost impossible to heat. Elderly people die of cold in winter in Scotland; every year, more people die in winter than in summer. A glance at the columns of death notices in local newspapers between November and March reminds us of that. We seem to accept that, somehow, it is inevitable. The annual cull of people in Scotland is something like 2,500, most of whom are pensioners. That does not have to happen. In places with colder climates, such as Scandinavia or Siberia, those excess winter deaths do not occur. Energy Action Scotland reported that in Siberia, despite an outside temperature of minus 25 deg, there is no increase in winter mortality rates, because indoor temperatures are kept at a consistent level. In Scotland, more than 100,000 pensioner households have no form of central heating. Fuel-poor families spend a higher than average proportion of their household income on fuel, but the heat goes out the doors, windows and roofs—that makes for nicely warmed pigeons but freezing cold pensioners. Fuel poverty must be tackled on two fronts: first, housing must be improved, so that it is energy efficient; secondly, incomes must be increased to make fuel affordable. The Executive has paid little more than lip service to the first issue. Its warm deal programme is inflexible; it allows expenditure on insulation, but not to tackle problems such as dampness. As John McAllion and others have said, that is in contrast to the situation in England, where the home energy scheme allows for grants for central heating. Until the basic problem of inadequate pensions is tackled, any measure to provide a winter heating allowance will be undermined. An increase in investment in housing is necessary to tackle fuel poverty.Given the number of people who live in fuel poverty in Scotland, it is hardly surprising that last week the Executive disgracefully refused to set a target for tackling fuel poverty in Scotland. It recognised that, if it set a target, it might have to do something about it, which would cost money— God forbid, it might mean opening Gordon Brown's war chest. We need to raise our ambitions and Scotland's horizons. We need to raise our pensioners out of poverty.", "EditedTextHTML": "Fuel poverty is a particular problem for elderly people. According to the Scottish Poverty Information Unit, Scottish pensioners make up almost half the fuel poor. The reasons are twofold: first, household incomes are not enough to pay for adequate heating; secondly, the condition of houses means that they are almost impossible to heat.

Elderly people die of cold in winter in Scotland; every year, more people die in winter than in summer. A glance at the columns of death notices in local newspapers between November and March reminds us of that. We seem to accept that, somehow, it is inevitable. The annual cull of people in Scotland is something like 2,500, most of whom are pensioners. That does not have to happen. In places with colder climates, such as Scandinavia or Siberia, those excess winter deaths do not occur.

Energy Action Scotland reported that in Siberia, despite an outside temperature of minus 25 deg, there is no increase in winter mortality rates, because indoor temperatures are kept at a consistent level. In Scotland, more than 100,000 pensioner households have no form of central heating. Fuel-poor families spend a higher than average proportion of their household income on fuel, but the heat goes out the doors, windows and roofs—that makes for nicely warmed pigeons but freezing cold pensioners.

Fuel poverty must be tackled on two fronts: first, housing must be improved, so that it is energy efficient; secondly, incomes must be increased to make fuel affordable. The Executive has paid little more than lip service to the first issue. Its warm deal programme is inflexible; it allows expenditure on insulation, but not to tackle problems such as dampness. As John McAllion and others have said, that is in contrast to the situation in England, where the home energy scheme allows for grants for central heating.

Until the basic problem of inadequate pensions is tackled, any measure to provide a winter heating allowance will be undermined. An increase in investment in housing is necessary to tackle fuel

poverty.

Given the number of people who live in fuel poverty in Scotland, it is hardly surprising that last week the Executive disgracefully refused to set a target for tackling fuel poverty in Scotland. It recognised that, if it set a target, it might have to do something about it, which would cost money— God forbid, it might mean opening Gordon Brown's war chest.

We need to raise our ambitions and Scotland's horizons. We need to raise our pensioners out of poverty.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C712953", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 169.0, "ContributionID": 712953, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C712957", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 178.0, "ContributionID": 712957, "EditedText": "Sitting beside a pensioner—my colleague, John Young—gives me an interesting perspective on the debate. I commend the Scottish National party on the motion. It is a privilege for us to be able to raise awareness about the needs of the elderly. When I was younger, 60 seemed to be really, really old. However, when one reaches 50 and considers that Tina Turner is now eligible for her old-age pension and bus pass and that Scotland's James Bond is nearer 70 than 60, it brings a new dimension to consideration of what it means to be elderly. Today's new pensioners were born as the war broke out, and older pensioners fought in and endured the hardships of the second world war. Many of them are the most vulnerable people in our society. That background is important to our understanding of the elderly. All too often, applying for income support is perceived as asking for charity and, in some cases, defies a fiercely independent nature. My mother is certainly someone for whom any mention of income support is a non-starter. For once, I am inclined to agree with Des McNulty that care of the elderly is not just the responsibility of Governments. We should not look to the Government to provide all the answers to the problems of the elderly; we should look to ourselves. Responsibility for the elderly is a responsibility for all of us. Against that background, many middle-aged women have given up jobs to care for elderly parents. As was mentioned in the carers debate last week, the welfare bill that was announced by Tony Blair will introduce a second pension and will secure pension entitlement. The aim to eradicate child poverty in 20 years can be criticised because that must be the longest time for the implementation of any policy. Carers can look forward to their pension in 50 years' time. That is ridiculous. Yesterday's report from the University of Bristol, entitled \"The Widening Gap: Health Inequalities and Policy in Britain\", stated that the poverty gap in Scotland is widening. Alex Neil pointed out the comparison between Govan and Wokingham. As one of the authors of the book said: \"Despite pledging to reduce poverty the current Labour administration have clearly reneged on both their commitments regarding health made before the election as well as reneging on much of what key cabinet ministers wrote and said in the past.\" The Tories can be blamed for the period from 1979 to 1997, but they cannot be blamed for not fulfilling Labour promises in the past two years.", "EditedTextHTML": "Sitting beside a pensioner—my colleague, John Young—gives me an interesting perspective on the debate. I commend the Scottish National party on the motion. It is a privilege for us to be able to raise awareness about the needs of the elderly.

When I was younger, 60 seemed to be really, really old. However, when one reaches 50 and considers that Tina Turner is now eligible for her old-age pension and bus pass and that Scotland's James Bond is nearer 70 than 60, it brings a new dimension to consideration of what it means to be elderly.

Today's new pensioners were born as the war broke out, and older pensioners fought in and endured the hardships of the second world war. Many of them are the most vulnerable people in our society. That background is important to our understanding of the elderly. All too often, applying for income support is perceived as asking for charity and, in some cases, defies a fiercely independent nature. My mother is certainly someone for whom any mention of income support is a non-starter.

For once, I am inclined to agree with Des McNulty that care of the elderly is not just the responsibility of Governments. We should not look to the Government to provide all the answers to the problems of the elderly; we should look to ourselves. Responsibility for the elderly is a responsibility for all of us.

Against that background, many middle-aged women have given up jobs to care for elderly parents. As was mentioned in the carers debate last week, the welfare bill that was announced by Tony Blair will introduce a second pension and will secure pension entitlement. The aim to eradicate child poverty in 20 years can be criticised because that must be the longest time for the implementation of any policy. Carers can look forward to their pension in 50 years' time. That is ridiculous.

Yesterday's report from the University of Bristol, entitled \"The Widening Gap: Health Inequalities and Policy in Britain\", stated that the poverty gap in Scotland is widening. Alex Neil pointed out the comparison between Govan and Wokingham. As one of the authors of the book said:

\"Despite pledging to reduce poverty the current Labour administration have clearly reneged on both their commitments regarding health made before the election as well as reneging on much of what key cabinet ministers wrote and said in the past.\"

The Tories can be blamed for the period from 1979 to 1997, but they cannot be blamed for not fulfilling Labour promises in the past two years.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C712959", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 182.0, "ContributionID": 712959, "EditedText": "I will not give way because I have less than one minute left. A recent Age Concern survey pointed out that people over 65 in Britain are being refused treatment; they are being forced to use private health care; they are being refused referrals to consultants and physiotherapists; they are being refused referrals for scans; and they are waiting months and years for operations. That is discrimination against the elderly. As Kay Ullrich pointed out, bed blocking in Scotland cannot be mentioned enough, because bed blocking means that we are not looking after our elderly as we should. More than 2,000 patients deemed medically fit for discharge cannot leave hospital because of problems with social work funding. Not only are those patients not receiving appropriate health care, but because of bed blocking, other patients are prevented from receiving health care. When in opposition, Labour criticised the Conservatives for tying pension increases to the rate of inflation. Now is the Government's opportunity, with wages and earnings having risen by 4.6 per cent in the past 12 months, to fulfil its promises. A recent report from Energy Action Scotland stated that results \"suggest that heart disorders are aggravated by frequent exposure to cold. Indoor temperatures below 16oC increase respiratory problems and below 5oC involve a serious risk of hypothermia.\" I support John McAllion in his call for a full review of the warm homes initiative. It was promised when Labour was in opposition. Now that it is in government, it should have the review.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will not give way because I have less than one minute left.

A recent Age Concern survey pointed out that people over 65 in Britain are being refused treatment; they are being forced to use private health care; they are being refused referrals to consultants and physiotherapists; they are being refused referrals for scans; and they are waiting months and years for operations. That is discrimination against the elderly.

As Kay Ullrich pointed out, bed blocking in Scotland cannot be mentioned enough, because bed blocking means that we are not looking after our elderly as we should. More than 2,000 patients deemed medically fit for discharge cannot leave hospital because of problems with social work funding. Not only are those patients not receiving appropriate health care, but because of bed blocking, other patients are prevented from receiving health care.

When in opposition, Labour criticised the Conservatives for tying pension increases to the rate of inflation. Now is the Government's opportunity, with wages and earnings having risen by 4.6 per cent in the past 12 months, to fulfil its promises.

A recent report from Energy Action Scotland stated that results

\"suggest that heart disorders are aggravated by frequent exposure to cold. Indoor temperatures below 16oC increase respiratory problems and below 5oC involve a serious risk of hypothermia.\"

I support John McAllion in his call for a full review of the warm homes initiative. It was promised when Labour was in opposition. Now that it is in government, it should have the review.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1873E89P171C712961", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jackson, Dr Sylvia", "ID": 1873, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Stirling" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sylvia Jackson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Sylvia Jackson (Stirling) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 188.0, "ContributionID": 712961, "EditedText": "I am pleased that the issue of older people has been raised in the Scottish Parliament today. We all recognise the importance of older people in our society and the value of their experience and knowledge. Our elderly population is increasing dramatically and we have heard today about some of the issues that we still have to tackle. I am less happy with the Scottish National party motion. It indicates, wrongly, that the Government at Westminster and the coalition Government in Edinburgh have no comprehensive action plan on the issue. I will begin by showing that there is considerable commitment at UK level, and here in Edinburgh, to put in place the structures and policies for effecting real change. They include the proposal, outlined yesterday, for joint action committees between Westminster and the Scottish Executive, which we have heard about already. One task force will examine pensioner poverty. Let us consider some of the things that the Westminster Government has done. Iain Gray and Malcolm Chisholm have already listed many of them. Examples are the introduction of the minimum income guarantee, free eye tests and free television licences—albeit with the proviso that has been mentioned; there are many other things.We should be constructive and willing to move forward on issues such as claiming income support, mentioned by Malcolm Chisholm, and the review of the warm home deal, mentioned by John McAllion and others. The \"Better Government for Older People\"initiative—a Cabinet office proposal launched in 1998—aims \"to improve public services for older people by better meeting their needs, listening to their views, and encouraging and recognising their contribution.\" Of 28 pilot projects, three are in Scotland. One of the Scottish projects, in my constituency in Stirling, concentrates on promoting active citizenship. One of that project's initiatives is called, aptly, One Foot in the Web; it enables older people's communication and information skills to be passed on to other older people. Another initiative brings together social work and health services, including the setting up of mobile rural care services. Those initiatives represent action, not just words. The SNP seems to disregard all the activities that are beginning in Scotland. Kenny MacAskill raised an important point about concessionary fares. I would very much welcome a comprehensive Scotland-wide concessionary fares scheme. Transport is critical for the elderly and, for many people, public transport is the only option. Without an effective and affordable public transport system, many older people are socially isolated. The partnership agreement recognised that we must encourage the improvement and integration of concessionary fares and public transport for pensioners and those with special needs. I would like such a scheme to be phased in gradually. I realise that costs are involved, but a phased-in system could be managed. Today I lodged a motion calling for a Scotland-wide concessionary fares scheme and I hope that it will receive widespread support. We need a commitment, in principle, and then a detailed implementation plan. Such a scheme would benefit hundreds of thousands of pensioners in Scotland and would show people the real benefits that the Scottish Parliament can bring. Last week, Wendy Alexander introduced the document \"Social Justice …a Scotland where everyone matters\", which was a bold attempt to look at social inclusion in the round. The document makes specific recommendations for older people. That visionary document, together with the recent proposals for a joint Westminster-Scottish Executive task force to look at pensioner poverty, provides the type of action plan that the SNP asks for in its motion. I beg members to reject the motion and support the Government's amendment.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am pleased that the issue of older people has been raised in the Scottish Parliament today. We all recognise the importance of older people in our society and the value of their experience and knowledge. Our elderly population is increasing dramatically and we have heard today about some of the issues that we still have to tackle.

I am less happy with the Scottish National party motion. It indicates, wrongly, that the Government at Westminster and the coalition Government in Edinburgh have no comprehensive action plan on the issue.

I will begin by showing that there is considerable commitment at UK level, and here in Edinburgh, to put in place the structures and policies for effecting real change. They include the proposal, outlined yesterday, for joint action committees between Westminster and the Scottish Executive, which we have heard about already. One task force will examine pensioner poverty.

Let us consider some of the things that the Westminster Government has done. Iain Gray and Malcolm Chisholm have already listed many of them. Examples are the introduction of the minimum income guarantee, free eye tests and free television licences—albeit with the proviso that has been mentioned; there are many other

things.

We should be constructive and willing to move forward on issues such as claiming income support, mentioned by Malcolm Chisholm, and the review of the warm home deal, mentioned by John McAllion and others.

The \"Better Government for Older People\"

initiative—a Cabinet office proposal launched in 1998—aims

\"to improve public services for older people by better meeting their needs, listening to their views, and encouraging and recognising their contribution.\"

Of 28 pilot projects, three are in Scotland. One of the Scottish projects, in my constituency in Stirling, concentrates on promoting active citizenship. One of that project's initiatives is called, aptly, One Foot in the Web; it enables older people's communication and information skills to be passed on to other older people. Another initiative brings together social work and health services, including the setting up of mobile rural care services. Those initiatives represent action, not just words. The SNP seems to disregard all the activities that are beginning in Scotland.

Kenny MacAskill raised an important point about concessionary fares. I would very much welcome a comprehensive Scotland-wide concessionary fares scheme. Transport is critical for the elderly and, for many people, public transport is the only option. Without an effective and affordable public transport system, many older people are socially isolated. The partnership agreement recognised that we must encourage the improvement and integration of concessionary fares and public transport for pensioners and those with special needs.

I would like such a scheme to be phased in gradually. I realise that costs are involved, but a phased-in system could be managed. Today I lodged a motion calling for a Scotland-wide concessionary fares scheme and I hope that it will receive widespread support. We need a commitment, in principle, and then a detailed implementation plan. Such a scheme would benefit hundreds of thousands of pensioners in Scotland and would show people the real benefits that the Scottish Parliament can bring.

Last week, Wendy Alexander introduced the document \"Social Justice …a Scotland where everyone matters\", which was a bold attempt to look at social inclusion in the round. The document makes specific recommendations for older people. That visionary document, together with the recent proposals for a joint Westminster-Scottish Executive task force to look at pensioner poverty, provides the type of action plan that the SNP asks for in its motion. I beg members to reject the motion and support the Government's amendment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1762E216P508C712962", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Elder, Dorothy-Grace", "ID": 1762, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 191.0, "ContributionID": 712962, "EditedText": "We have heard far too little talk of real money from the Scottish Executive today. We have had one reference to \"funny money\", as proposed— allegedly—by the Scottish National party. Real funny money means wasting £1.5 billion a year running Trident at Faslane. By coincidence, £1.5 billion is the precise sum that Mr Darling is cutting from benefits. Imagine what that money could do for our pensioners and how much they deserve it. Imagine how much £30 billion—the whole cost of Trident—could do for Scotland. What could it do for Glasgow, where, to our shame, we learned today that six out of 10 constituencies are the poorest and most unhealthy in Britain? That includes Glasgow Anniesland, the constituency of the First Minister, who has been there since Adam was a boy. What has he done, and what has Labour done? It is clear that Labour is bad for people's health. I will turn to the subject of outright age discrimination. We are all in this together; we are becoming older and older in this particular year, and with greater rapidity than ever before. We are within a month of people being able to say to all of us, even to the youngest member in the Parliament, \"You are last century's people. You are last millennium's people.\" The age of Grecian 2000 has actually arrived—we will probably have to call it Grecian 3000 to make it seem more new. The new millennium calls for a change in our aged way of thinking of older and senior citizens. It calls for tough action against the pervasive cancer of age discrimination, for where does the plight of pensioners begin? It begins with people being denied work in middle age so that they have no savings left by the time they become pensioners. It begins with the same sort of odious discrimination that we had to legislate against, with racism and sexism. Why should we not legislate against age discrimination? As we have heard today, age discrimination kills. We have heard how it kills women, but it also kills men. A man thrown out of his job for being more than 50 years old is 50 per cent more likely to die prematurely. Shame on us all if we continue to allow that to happen. We know that hospitals refuse transplants to people who are more than 60 years old. That is sheer wickedness.", "EditedTextHTML": "We have heard far too little talk of real money from the Scottish Executive today. We have had one reference to \"funny money\", as proposed— allegedly—by the Scottish National party. Real funny money means wasting £1.5 billion a year running Trident at Faslane.

By coincidence, £1.5 billion is the precise sum that Mr Darling is cutting from benefits. Imagine what that money could do for our pensioners and how much they deserve it. Imagine how much £30 billion—the whole cost of Trident—could do for Scotland. What could it do for Glasgow, where, to our shame, we learned today that six out of 10 constituencies are the poorest and most unhealthy in Britain? That includes Glasgow Anniesland, the constituency of the First Minister, who has been there since Adam was a boy. What has he done, and what has Labour done? It is clear that Labour is bad for people's health.

I will turn to the subject of outright age discrimination. We are all in this together; we are becoming older and older in this particular year, and with greater rapidity than ever before. We are within a month of people being able to say to all of us, even to the youngest member in the Parliament, \"You are last century's people. You are last millennium's people.\" The age of Grecian 2000 has actually arrived—we will probably have to call it Grecian 3000 to make it seem more new.

The new millennium calls for a change in our aged way of thinking of older and senior citizens. It calls for tough action against the pervasive cancer of age discrimination, for where does the plight of pensioners begin? It begins with people being denied work in middle age so that they have no savings left by the time they become pensioners. It begins with the same sort of odious discrimination that we had to legislate against, with racism and sexism. Why should we not legislate against age discrimination?

As we have heard today, age discrimination kills. We have heard how it kills women, but it also kills men. A man thrown out of his job for being more than 50 years old is 50 per cent more likely to die prematurely. Shame on us all if we continue to allow that to happen. We know that hospitals refuse transplants to people who are more than 60 years old. That is sheer wickedness.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1762E216P508C712964", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Elder, Dorothy-Grace", "ID": 1762, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 195.0, "ContributionID": 712964, "EditedText": "The minister is not a surgeon and neither am I, so I will continue. To back my call for legislation against age discrimination, I will quote from a letter from Tony Blair. He wrote to the Campaign against Age Discrimination in Employment in July 1996: \"It is a tragedy that in Tory Britain millions of people are denied the opportunity to work. Older workers have a wealth of accumulated experience. It is economic nonsense to waste this experience.\" That is quite right. He then made a promise:\"Since there are still those employers who wish to continue with a blinkered attitude, Labour will introduce legislation against age discrimination.\" However, his promises went in one year and out the other. He broke that promise as soon as he was elected: no age legislation was introduced. The European Union has issued a directive, however, and I believe that Scotland should lead the way and that this Parliament should legislate on discrimination. I urge members to support the motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "The minister is not a surgeon and neither am I, so I will continue.

To back my call for legislation against age discrimination, I will quote from a letter from Tony Blair. He wrote to the Campaign against Age Discrimination in Employment in July 1996:

\"It is a tragedy that in Tory Britain millions of people are denied the opportunity to work. Older workers have a wealth of accumulated experience. It is economic nonsense to waste this experience.\"

That is quite right. He then made a promise:

\"Since there are still those employers who wish to continue with a blinkered attitude, Labour will introduce legislation against age discrimination.\"

However, his promises went in one year and out the other. He broke that promise as soon as he was elected: no age legislation was introduced. The European Union has issued a directive, however, and I believe that Scotland should lead the way and that this Parliament should legislate on discrimination. I urge members to support the motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2080E130P217C712965", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lamont, Johann", "ID": 2080, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Pollok" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Johann Lamont", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Johann Lamont (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 198.0, "ContributionID": 712965, "EditedText": "This debate is serious as it concerns the broad issues of poverty among pensioners and the health and well-being of older people. I was disappointed that the motion in the name of John Swinney condemned the lack of action by the Scottish Executive and focused so specifically on an area in which the Parliament has no power. I was equally disappointed to see the response of Scottish National party members—particularly Alex Neil—to the report that came out today about the health of the people of Glasgow. On a day that we were shown a horrific picture of inequality in Glasgow, it is a disgrace that he should suggest that all the responsibility lies with the Labour councils of the past 70 years. To suggest that is to ignore the structural and economic problems that Glasgow has faced. I was brought up in a poor part of Glasgow. A Labour council and a Labour Government ensured that we got a good education. My generation and my mother's generation aspired to the council housing that the Labour councils delivered because of the problems of living in the private rented sector. Everyone recognises that the Labour council has protected Glasgow. The Parliament has to take ownership of Glasgow's problems and work with the local council and the people of Glasgow. Members of this Parliament should not take the opportunity to make cheap political points, but it should not surprise us that the SNP has done that: it always picks the wrong targets and, consequently, finds the wrong solutions. The idea that constitutional change will deliver for the pensioners of this country is an absolute nonsense. I want to talk—", "EditedTextHTML": "This debate is serious as it concerns the broad issues of poverty among pensioners and the health and well-being of older people.

I was disappointed that the motion in the name of John Swinney condemned the lack of action by the Scottish Executive and focused so specifically on an area in which the Parliament has no power. I was equally disappointed to see the response of Scottish National party members—particularly Alex Neil—to the report that came out today about the health of the people of Glasgow. On a day that we were shown a horrific picture of inequality in Glasgow, it is a disgrace that he should suggest that all the responsibility lies with the Labour councils of the past 70 years. To suggest that is to ignore the structural and economic problems that Glasgow has faced.

I was brought up in a poor part of Glasgow. A Labour council and a Labour Government ensured that we got a good education. My generation and my mother's generation aspired to the council housing that the Labour councils delivered because of the problems of living in the private rented sector.

Everyone recognises that the Labour council has protected Glasgow. The Parliament has to take ownership of Glasgow's problems and work with the local council and the people of Glasgow. Members of this Parliament should not take the opportunity to make cheap political points, but it should not surprise us that the SNP has done that: it always picks the wrong targets and, consequently, finds the wrong solutions. The idea that constitutional change will deliver for the pensioners of this country is an absolute nonsense.

I want to talk—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1762E216P508C712966", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Elder, Dorothy-Grace", "ID": 1762, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 200.0, "ContributionID": 712966, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2080E130P217C712967", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lamont, Johann", "ID": 2080, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Pollok" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Johann Lamont", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Johann Lamont: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 202.0, "ContributionID": 712967, "EditedText": "I have heard Ms Elder talking about Grecian 2000 already and I was not impressed. I want to talk about the cross-party group on older people, which I was privileged to attend recently. It was a valued initiative by organisations representing and campaigning on behalf of older people. An important point was made there about not separating off older people. Michael Hare Duke said that we are all aging and that perhaps we should welcome it, because if we were not, we would be dead. It is a significant point to make, that when we tackle issues that matter to older people, we benefit the broader community. Equally, if we tackle the economy and issues of social inclusion and talk about poverty, pensioners will benefit. Pensioners are concerned about issues to do with drugs, and I have to say to Tommy Sheridan that his party's policy to decriminalise heroin will hardly make them feel safer in their homes. Because older people rely on public services disproportionately, any commitment to delivering high-quality public services will impact on them. I would like to locate areas where the Parliament can have an impact. Our committees can have an impact. I cannot believe that Alex Neil said that we do not need committees and that we do not need to talk. We need to listen to people and work with them, and our committees are a key place in which to do that. On transport, we should be talking to the bus operators about what they are doing on sensitive areas of bus service, such as routes to hospitals, for example, in Glasgow. The operators have a responsibility in that area. The Health and Community Care Committee should be discussing the importance of supporting older people to stay in their own homes. We should be talking about the rights of carers and the importance of assessing the needs of carers in their own right. On crime, we need to acknowledge the impact of the fear of crime on the lives and well-being of many older people. We have to consider the opportunity to bring old and young people together to challenge the stereotypes that each group has about the other. Within pensioner groups, we need to recognise the diversity of needs. We are debating equalities this afternoon. I hope that the minimum income guarantee will address the important inequality for pensioners and will give particular support to women, who, as we know, are among the poorest of pensioners. At a lobby that I attended last week, it was clear that pensioners are demanding that we address the problems that too many of them face. One woman there said to me that she got annoyed at those who said that this Government was doing nothing and that it was as bad as the last lot; she said that we must give it a chance. The Scottish Executive must recognise that we have been given an opportunity to tackle pensioner poverty and to address questions beyond income, such as agism and so on. We have to identify the issues that exclude people and limit their lives. It is an opportunity that we must take fearlessly, without closing off options or refusing to consider any available alternatives. We should be serious about monitoring progress, so that that particular woman's willingness to give us a chance will be rewarded with real change in her life and that of all older people.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have heard Ms Elder talking about Grecian 2000 already and I was not impressed.

I want to talk about the cross-party group on older people, which I was privileged to attend recently. It was a valued initiative by organisations representing and campaigning on behalf of older people. An important point was made there about not separating off older people. Michael Hare Duke said that we are all aging and that perhaps we should welcome it, because if we were not, we would be dead. It is a significant point to make, that when we tackle issues that matter to older people, we benefit the broader community. Equally, if we tackle the economy and issues of social inclusion and talk about poverty, pensioners will benefit. Pensioners are concerned about issues to do with drugs, and I have to say to Tommy Sheridan that his party's policy to decriminalise heroin will hardly make them feel safer in their homes.

Because older people rely on public services disproportionately, any commitment to delivering high-quality public services will impact on them. I would like to locate areas where the Parliament can have an impact. Our committees can have an impact. I cannot believe that Alex Neil said that we do not need committees and that we do not need to talk. We need to listen to people and work with them, and our committees are a key place in which to do that.

On transport, we should be talking to the bus operators about what they are doing on sensitive areas of bus service, such as routes to hospitals, for example, in Glasgow. The operators have a responsibility in that area. The Health and Community Care Committee should be discussing the importance of supporting older people to stay in their own homes. We should be talking about the rights of carers and the importance of assessing the needs of carers in their own right.

On crime, we need to acknowledge the impact of the fear of crime on the lives and well-being of many older people. We have to consider the opportunity to bring old and young people together to challenge the stereotypes that each group has about the other. Within pensioner groups, we need to recognise the diversity of needs. We are

debating equalities this afternoon. I hope that the minimum income guarantee will address the important inequality for pensioners and will give particular support to women, who, as we know, are among the poorest of pensioners.

At a lobby that I attended last week, it was clear that pensioners are demanding that we address the problems that too many of them face. One woman there said to me that she got annoyed at those who said that this Government was doing nothing and that it was as bad as the last lot; she said that we must give it a chance. The Scottish Executive must recognise that we have been given an opportunity to tackle pensioner poverty and to address questions beyond income, such as agism and so on. We have to identify the issues that exclude people and limit their lives. It is an opportunity that we must take fearlessly, without closing off options or refusing to consider any available alternatives.

We should be serious about monitoring progress, so that that particular woman's willingness to give us a chance will be rewarded with real change in her life and that of all older people.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1973E119P326C712968", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gorrie, Donald", "ID": 1973, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Donald Gorrie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Donald Gorrie (Central Scotland) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 205.0, "ContributionID": 712968, "EditedText": "My colleague, Robert Brown, spelled out the Liberal Democrat position extremely well. I would like to concentrate on a few points. First, I think that I am the first genuine pensioner to speak in the debate; it shows that pensioners can make a contribution. That is being recognised gradually, but not nearly enough. Many people of pensionable age can make a huge contribution in many different ways and can enjoy doing so. I enjoy putting the boot into the establishment; by doing what they enjoy, pensioners can make a real contribution to the community. I am happy to support Iain Gray's amendment. He is a minister in whom I have confidence, and I felt that he and some of the other Labour speakers, both old colleagues such as Malcolm Chisholm and John McAllion, and people whom I have started getting to know in committees, such as Sylvia Jackson and—I have lost the name. Laughter. One of the difficulties of being old is that I am not good on names. I am beginning to value new colleagues on committees as well. We have a great chance to develop a Labour party in Scotland that is distinctively Scottish and unlike the Labour party in London. I have serious reservations about many aspects of that Labour party. I feel that its failure to reverse the Tories' consistent attack on the poor and the pensioners is unacceptable. The gulf between the rich and the poor is widening, and pensioners are among the poorest in the community. Labour in London has not done nearly enough about that; it has sold out to the capitalist system in a disgraceful manner.", "EditedTextHTML": "My colleague, Robert Brown, spelled out the Liberal Democrat position extremely well.

I would like to concentrate on a few points. First, I think that I am the first genuine pensioner to speak in the debate; it shows that pensioners can make a contribution. That is being recognised gradually, but not nearly enough. Many people of pensionable age can make a huge contribution in many different ways and can enjoy doing so. I enjoy putting the boot into the establishment; by doing what they enjoy, pensioners can make a real contribution to the community.

I am happy to support Iain Gray's amendment. He is a minister in whom I have confidence, and I felt that he and some of the other Labour speakers, both old colleagues such as Malcolm Chisholm and John McAllion, and people whom I have started getting to know in committees, such as Sylvia Jackson and—I have lost the name. [Laughter.] One of the difficulties of being old is that I am not good on names.

I am beginning to value new colleagues on committees as well. We have a great chance to develop a Labour party in Scotland that is distinctively Scottish and unlike the Labour party in London. I have serious reservations about many aspects of that Labour party. I feel that its failure to reverse the Tories' consistent attack on the poor and the pensioners is unacceptable. The gulf between the rich and the poor is widening, and pensioners are among the poorest in the community. Labour in London has not done nearly enough about that; it has sold out to the capitalist system in a disgraceful manner.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1973E119P326C712970", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gorrie, Donald", "ID": 1973, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Donald Gorrie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Donald Gorrie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 209.0, "ContributionID": 712970, "EditedText": "Yes. I am very happy with many of the things that the partnership Executive is pursuing—that is an excellent initiative. However, there is a fundamental flaw in the United Kingdom Government's attitude towards poverty and its eradication, which we must address. Westminster also fails to understand that in Scotland we have a partnership agreement. Without any consultation, Gordon Brown swans up and suggests various committees. Those committees may be a good idea—it depends how they work out—but the whole thing was done in a totally unacceptable way. The partnership Government is not like a Victorian marriage, in which one partner does what the other one tells them. There are some lessons to be learned if people wish the partnership Government to continue. My main point is that we should approach the issue of improving pensioners' lives from the bottom up, not the top down. There is too much bureaucracy and well-intentioned regulation. We should help communities and the older people within them. Older people can contribute a huge amount to their communities. Grandparents are often the rock on which communities are built. If we help communities to develop, to provide services for the old people who need them and to enlist the support of the old people who can contribute, that will be a better approach than the top-down one that is often taken. The key is to help people to help themselves. It is easy to invent lots of bureaucracy—ticking boxes and so on—but we must help people to help themselves in their communities. Older people can make a significant contribution.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes. I am very happy with many of the things that the partnership Executive is pursuing—that is an excellent initiative. However, there is a fundamental flaw in the United Kingdom Government's attitude towards poverty and its eradication, which we must address. Westminster also fails to understand that in Scotland we have a partnership agreement. Without any consultation, Gordon Brown swans up and suggests various committees. Those committees may be a good idea—it depends how they work out—but the whole thing was done in a totally unacceptable way. The partnership Government is not like a Victorian marriage, in which one partner does what the other one tells them. There are some lessons to be learned if people wish the partnership Government to continue.

My main point is that we should approach the issue of improving pensioners' lives from the bottom up, not the top down. There is too much bureaucracy and well-intentioned regulation. We should help communities and the older people within them. Older people can contribute a huge amount to their communities. Grandparents are often the rock on which communities are built. If we help communities to develop, to provide services for the old people who need them and to enlist the support of the old people who can contribute, that will be a better approach than the top-down one that is often taken. The key is to help people to help themselves. It is easy to invent lots of bureaucracy—ticking boxes and so on—but we must help people to help themselves in their communities. Older people can make a significant contribution.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1865E219P509C712971", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "White, Sandra", "ID": 1865, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sandra White", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Sandra White (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 212.0, "ContributionID": 712971, "EditedText": "wondered when the consensus politics was going to end. I think that we just saw a fine example: Johann Lamont, with her socialist background, trying to stick up for new Labour policies—I congratulate her on doing that so well. We have already heard about the problems faced by the elderly because of fuel poverty. It must be recognised that a major contributory factor to fuel poverty is the imposition of standing charges by the utility companies. The Scottish National party believes that removing standing charges for electricity, gas and telephone bills would enhance pensioners' lives and give them a higher standard of living. It may be that that is a reserved matter, but as members of the Parliament, MSPs take on board everything that our constituents and the pensioners up in the visitors gallery say to us. If we had the will, we could go to Westminster and suggest that the standing charges should be abolished. The plight of the poor was highlighted in a report by the Consumers Association, which said that the poor were suffering from the severe tactics of the gas and electricity companies, with gas suppliers cutting off 30,000 homes last year. For the elderly in Scotland, living on pensions of only £66.25 for a single person or £106.70 for a couple—one of the lowest pensions in Europe—standing charges are a major burden. That is evident from the tragic statistics—there were 2,200 excess deaths of people over the age of 60 in Scotland in the winter of 1997-98. We should not allow that to happen in a civilised society. It is obvious that there is a particular problem in Scotland that must be addressed. There is no reason why Scotland should not follow the example of Ireland, where standing charges for pensioners have been abolished. If Scottish pensioners did not have to pay standing charges, but paid only for the fuel that they had used, it would go some way towards alleviating the problem of fuel poverty in our elderly population. Research reveals that poor pensioners are less likely to own a telephone than better-off pensioners. In 1996-97, 12 per cent of single pensioners and 3 per cent of pensioner couples, who were mainly dependent on state pensions, had no telephone at all. Furthermore, single pensioners who were mainly dependent on state benefits were three times more likely not to have a telephone than single pensioners who had greater access to income, and 10 times more likely not to have a telephone than couples who had greater access to income. It would greatly enhance pensioners' quality of life if standing charges were abolished and they had to pay only for the telephone calls that they actually made. It is clear that the current system of standing charges penalises the poorest and most vulnerable people, and especially the elderly. What is required from the Government is action. If Ireland can abolish standing charges, I do not see why we cannot. We have heard many fine words from those on the Labour benches. We have not heard anything about Gordon Brown sitting on his £12 billion war chest. What about that? Why not release some of that money for the pensioners? Words from the Executive do not heat homes, and do not buy food to put on the table. What is required is action. Removing standing charges now would be a step in the right direction.", "EditedTextHTML": "wondered when the consensus politics was going to end. I think that we just saw a fine example: Johann Lamont, with her socialist background, trying to stick up for new Labour policies—I congratulate her on doing that so well.

We have already heard about the problems faced by the elderly because of fuel poverty. It must be recognised that a major contributory

factor to fuel poverty is the imposition of standing charges by the utility companies. The Scottish National party believes that removing standing charges for electricity, gas and telephone bills would enhance pensioners' lives and give them a higher standard of living. It may be that that is a reserved matter, but as members of the Parliament, MSPs take on board everything that our constituents and the pensioners up in the visitors gallery say to us. If we had the will, we could go to Westminster and suggest that the standing charges should be abolished.

The plight of the poor was highlighted in a report by the Consumers Association, which said that the poor were suffering from the severe tactics of the gas and electricity companies, with gas suppliers cutting off 30,000 homes last year. For the elderly in Scotland, living on pensions of only £66.25 for a single person or £106.70 for a couple—one of the lowest pensions in Europe—standing charges are a major burden. That is evident from the tragic statistics—there were 2,200 excess deaths of people over the age of 60 in Scotland in the winter of 1997-98. We should not allow that to happen in a civilised society. It is obvious that there is a particular problem in Scotland that must be addressed.

There is no reason why Scotland should not follow the example of Ireland, where standing charges for pensioners have been abolished. If Scottish pensioners did not have to pay standing charges, but paid only for the fuel that they had used, it would go some way towards alleviating the problem of fuel poverty in our elderly population.

Research reveals that poor pensioners are less likely to own a telephone than better-off pensioners. In 1996-97, 12 per cent of single pensioners and 3 per cent of pensioner couples, who were mainly dependent on state pensions, had no telephone at all. Furthermore, single pensioners who were mainly dependent on state benefits were three times more likely not to have a telephone than single pensioners who had greater access to income, and 10 times more likely not to have a telephone than couples who had greater access to income.

It would greatly enhance pensioners' quality of life if standing charges were abolished and they had to pay only for the telephone calls that they actually made. It is clear that the current system of standing charges penalises the poorest and most vulnerable people, and especially the elderly. What is required from the Government is action. If Ireland can abolish standing charges, I do not see why we cannot.

We have heard many fine words from those on the Labour benches. We have not heard anything about Gordon Brown sitting on his £12 billion war chest. What about that? Why not release some of that money for the pensioners?

Words from the Executive do not heat homes, and do not buy food to put on the table. What is required is action. Removing standing charges now would be a step in the right direction.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1803E78P291C712974", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gillon, Karen", "ID": 1803, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Clydesdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Karen Gillon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Karen Gillon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 219.0, "ContributionID": 712974, "EditedText": "No, Fergus. You didnae take us, we'll no take you. Sit down. We will get on with our contribution and you get on with yours. I am in the business of delivering for pensioners, not of delivering the empty rhetoric that Fergus Ewing's party, far too often, seems to produce. The warm deal for pensioners will deliver warmth to homes where ice inside the window was far too common during our cold Scottish winter months. However, John McAllion is right: we need to look again at the warm deal, and we need to look again at whether we need to target the money at those who need it most. That is what we are about. It is not about giving more to those who already have it; it is about taking money and giving it to those who need it most. How dare the SNP accuse this Government and this Executive of lack of action, when they have increased winter fuel payments fivefold from £20 to £100. The pensioners of this country will know the actions of this Government when they see cheques for £100 falling through the letterbox this winter. The SNP's contribution to this debate has not centred on what the Parliament can do for pensioners, but on how the Parliament can criticise the Westminster Government. The people of Scotland spoke loud and clear on 6 May 1999. They want the Scottish Parliament and Westminster to get on with their own business, but to work together on important issues. Quite frankly, the ideological blinkers that prevent the SNP from recognising the benefits of a joint ministerial committee to tackle pensioner poverty result in a true disservice to our pensioners. If SNP members believe that committees only waste time and money, why do they take part in them? Committees are effective and will do their best for pensioners. With our colleagues in Westminster, we—not the SNP with its ideological blinkers—will deliver the better Scotland that our pensioners want.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, Fergus. You didnae take us, we'll no take you. Sit down. We will get on with our contribution and you get on with yours. I am in the business of delivering for pensioners, not of delivering the empty rhetoric that Fergus Ewing's party, far too often, seems to produce.

The warm deal for pensioners will deliver warmth to homes where ice inside the window was far too common during our cold Scottish winter months. However, John McAllion is right: we need to look again at the warm deal, and we need to look again at whether we need to target the money at those who need it most. That is what we are about. It is not about giving more to those who already have it; it is about taking money and giving it to those who need it most.

How dare the SNP accuse this Government and this Executive of lack of action, when they have increased winter fuel payments fivefold from £20 to £100. The pensioners of this country will know the actions of this Government when they see cheques for £100 falling through the letterbox this winter.

The SNP's contribution to this debate has not centred on what the Parliament can do for pensioners, but on how the Parliament can criticise the Westminster Government. The people of Scotland spoke loud and clear on 6 May 1999. They want the Scottish Parliament and Westminster to get on with their own business, but to work together on important issues. Quite frankly, the ideological blinkers that prevent the SNP from recognising the benefits of a joint ministerial committee to tackle pensioner poverty result in a true disservice to our pensioners.

If SNP members believe that committees only waste time and money, why do they take part in them? Committees are effective and will do their best for pensioners. With our colleagues in Westminster, we—not the SNP with its ideological blinkers—will deliver the better Scotland that our pensioners want.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2010E221P512C712975", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Paterson, Gil", "ID": 2010, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Gil Paterson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Gil Paterson (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 222.0, "ContributionID": 712975, "EditedText": "Much has been said about the level of state pension and many arguments have been constructed around the validity of directly comparing our state pension to the pensions of European neighbours. However, one premise that cannot be challenged is the appalling level of poverty prevalent among our older generation. As we have already heard, about half of our pensioner households are dependent on state benefits for at least 75 per cent of their income—an income which is only around a fifth of the UK average. As the state pension is the biggest factor that governs older people's income in Scotland, it is only right that we should examine that payment if we are to reduce poverty. Perhaps the most regressive step to date has been the Labour Government's abandonment of a state pension that can be relied on to provide a decent standard of living. That was proved by its decision to award pensioners an increase of a mere 75p per week, claiming that the move to a guaranteed minimum income was a better use of finance. I am sure that pensioners will more than welcome Gordon Brown's generous budget increase. It will buy half a box of cornflakes, two pints of milk or a broadsheet newspaper such as The Herald, but not the Daily Record or The Sun as well. Let us examine Gordon Brown's much- trumpeted minimum income for pensioners. He heralded the fact that there would be a minimum of £75 for pensioners. However, that is dependent on pensioners claiming income support to top up their inadequate state pension of £66.75. Quite aside from the 70,000 pensioners living in extreme poverty because they did not pass the means test by a few pennies, it is surely a damning admission of the inadequacy of the UK state pension that the Benefits Agency has to shore up pensions to the poverty line. However, the story does not end there. The system that pays out benefits is grossly inefficient, particularly when it relies on vulnerable people in the later years of their lives going cap in hand to the benefits office. Many pensioners do not claim benefits because they are unable to wade through the forms or are unaware that they have a right to this money. Furthermore, people who have worked all their lives often do not want be treated as charity cases by the Government and certainly do not want to endure the indignity of a means test. The Government's own statistics, although available only on a UK-wide basis, bear that out. Although, in 1997-98, the average pensioner claimed £31.50 each week in benefits, an average £18.80 of benefits payable to pensioners remained unclaimed. It is just like the lottery money that lies unclaimed every week. That means that almost 40 per cent of benefits to which pensioners are entitled are simply not claimed, which, in Scotland, represents about £100 million of unclaimed benefits each year. It is little wonder that the Government prefers the indignity of the means test to a straightforward increase in pensions which are an automatic right and do not involve a fight with bureaucracy. This Parliament can take steps to counter poverty among older people: tackling fuel poverty, improving housing and supporting concessionary transport are all important. However, the single most important basic item that governs the welfare—or otherwise—of our elderly is the pension rate. After all, the pension is older people's wage. Until the Parliament is able to set the state pension level, we will always be fighting the battle against pensioner poverty with both hands tied behind our backs.", "EditedTextHTML": "Much has been said about the level of state pension and many arguments have been constructed around the validity of directly comparing our state pension to the pensions of European neighbours.

However, one premise that cannot be challenged is the appalling level of poverty prevalent among our older generation. As we have already heard, about half of our pensioner households are dependent on state benefits for at least 75 per cent of their income—an income which is only around a fifth of the UK average.

As the state pension is the biggest factor that governs older people's income in Scotland, it is only right that we should examine that payment if we are to reduce poverty. Perhaps the most regressive step to date has been the Labour Government's abandonment of a state pension that can be relied on to provide a decent standard of living. That was proved by its decision to award pensioners an increase of a mere 75p per week, claiming that the move to a guaranteed minimum income was a better use of finance. I am sure that pensioners will more than welcome Gordon Brown's generous budget increase. It will buy half a box of cornflakes, two pints of milk or a broadsheet newspaper such as The Herald, but not the Daily Record or The Sun as well.

Let us examine Gordon Brown's much- trumpeted minimum income for pensioners. He heralded the fact that there would be a minimum of £75 for pensioners. However, that is dependent on pensioners claiming income support to top up their inadequate state pension of £66.75. Quite aside from the 70,000 pensioners living in extreme poverty because they did not pass the means test by a few pennies, it is surely a damning admission of the inadequacy of the UK state pension that the Benefits Agency has to shore up pensions to the poverty line.

However, the story does not end there. The system that pays out benefits is grossly inefficient, particularly when it relies on vulnerable people in the later years of their lives going cap in hand to the benefits office. Many pensioners do not claim benefits because they are unable to wade through the forms or are unaware that they have a right to this money.

Furthermore, people who have worked all their lives often do not want be treated as charity cases by the Government and certainly do not want to endure the indignity of a means test. The Government's own statistics, although available only on a UK-wide basis, bear that out. Although, in 1997-98, the average pensioner claimed £31.50 each week in benefits, an average £18.80 of benefits payable to pensioners remained unclaimed. It is just like the lottery money that lies unclaimed every week.

That means that almost 40 per cent of benefits to which pensioners are entitled are simply not claimed, which, in Scotland, represents about £100 million of unclaimed benefits each year. It is little wonder that the Government prefers the indignity of the means test to a straightforward increase in pensions which are an automatic right and do not involve a fight with bureaucracy.

This Parliament can take steps to counter poverty among older people: tackling fuel poverty, improving housing and supporting concessionary transport are all important. However, the single most important basic item that governs the welfare—or otherwise—of our elderly is the pension rate. After all, the pension is older people's wage. Until the Parliament is able to set the state pension level, we will always be fighting the battle against pensioner poverty with both hands tied behind our backs.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2118E157P454C712977", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Quinan, Mr Lloyd", "ID": 2118, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lloyd Quinan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Lloyd Quinan (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 227.0, "ContributionID": 712977, "EditedText": "What happened to the partnership?", "EditedTextHTML": "

What happened to the partnership?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1986E53P206C712978", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeil, Duncan", "ID": 1986, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Greenock and Inverclyde" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan McNeil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McNeil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 229.0, "ContributionID": 712978, "EditedText": "I have been heckled by boilermakers, sir, and you ain't no boilermaker. Before Donald Gorrie makes such statements in the chamber, he should ask his Cabinet colleagues who attended and who chaired the meeting that day. There has been much talk this morning about poor pensioners. Unfortunately, some members raise their eyes to the public gallery and see votes rather than pensioners.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have been heckled by boilermakers, sir, and you ain't no boilermaker.

Before Donald Gorrie makes such statements in the chamber, he should ask his Cabinet colleagues who attended and who chaired the meeting that day.

There has been much talk this morning about poor pensioners. Unfortunately, some members raise their eyes to the public gallery and see votes rather than pensioners.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2033E106P139C712992", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gray, Iain", "ID": 2033, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Pentlands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Iain Gray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Iain Gray: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 257.0, "ContributionID": 712992, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1986E53P206C712995", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeil, Duncan", "ID": 1986, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Greenock and Inverclyde" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan McNeil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McNeil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 263.0, "ContributionID": 712995, "EditedText": "Absolutely. I can confirm that.We will continue to work in this Parliament for our pensioners. I look forward to working with pensioners and campaign groups, particularly on the issue of concessionary travel where this Parliament can make a difference. Thank you for the opportunity to speak.", "EditedTextHTML": "Absolutely. I can confirm that.

We will continue to work in this Parliament for our pensioners. I look forward to working with pensioners and campaign groups, particularly on the issue of concessionary travel where this Parliament can make a difference.

Thank you for the opportunity to speak.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1876E194P490C713000", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Marwick, Tricia", "ID": 1876, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tricia Marwick", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tricia Marwick: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 275.0, "ContributionID": 713000, "EditedText": "Will Margaret Smith join me in condemning the Executive for not setting a target to deal with fuel poverty in Scotland?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Margaret Smith join me in condemning the Executive for not setting a target to deal with fuel poverty in Scotland?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2099E29P51C713005", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Young, John", "ID": 2099, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Young", "SpeakerDisplayName": "John Young (West of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 286.0, "ContributionID": 713005, "EditedText": "Donald Gorrie and I must declare an interest, as we are the only genuine pensioners who have spoken, out of 24 speakers of whom I shall be the 24th. On 1 January 2000, there will be a celebration: it will be 91 years since the first pension was introduced in this country. Robert Brown made reference to that. On 1 January 1909, the pension was 5 shillings and life expectancy was, on average, between 47 and 50 years. That does not bode well, when one thinks of the 73p increase in the state pension that was reported the other day. What could someone buy in a week for 73p? They could buy The Herald and a small bag of crisps, or they could buy a cheaper newspaper and one and a half bags of crisps. That puts the matter into a simplistic context, but that is the reality of what 73p could buy. Thirty years ago, it was estimated that 500 people in this country—and by this country, for the benefit of my friends in the SNP, I am talking about the United Kingdom—had reached 100. Today, it is estimated that more than 6,000 people are 100 or older. That shows how ages are increasing, and how the older population is increasing. The other day, Wendy Alexander announced a 20-year programme of intent, which met with mixed reactions. However, no Parliament can afford not to look to the future and plan accordingly. On 27 April, the Government actuary's department produced a series of projections that were based on figures that had been issued by the Registrar General for Scotland. By 2021, Scotland's population is expected to fall from its 1998 level of 5.12 million to 5.06 million. During that period, the number of children under 16 is set to fall to 85 per cent of its present level. However, the number of Scots who are older than the pensionable age is set to rise by 8 per cent, which will bring that section of the population to just fewer than 1 million, after taking into account the change in the retirement age for women, from 60 to 65. Without that change, the rise would have been 28 per cent, according to the statisticians. Tony Blair and Donald Dewar claim that their priority is the poorest pensioner. One must say that, at times, they plead like a pair of Pharisees. What is the reality? The European Commission has adopted a working definition, which states that people face social exclusion if their income is less than half the national average. The Government's own sources suggested that, in 1997, a single person without a car, who lived in rented accommodation modestly but adequately, needed a gross weekly income of £137.34. A married couple, who were similarly placed but who owned a car, needed £267.58. How many pensioners today receive those incomes? It should also be remembered that those figures were published in 1997 and were derived from 1996 data.", "EditedTextHTML": "Donald Gorrie and I must declare an interest, as we are the only genuine pensioners who have spoken, out of 24 speakers of whom I shall be the 24th.

On 1 January 2000, there will be a celebration: it will be 91 years since the first pension was introduced in this country. Robert Brown made reference to that. On 1 January 1909, the pension was 5 shillings and life expectancy was, on average, between 47 and 50 years. That does not bode well, when one thinks of the 73p increase in the state pension that was reported the other day. What could someone buy in a week for 73p? They could buy The Herald and a small bag of crisps, or they could buy a cheaper newspaper and one and a half bags of crisps. That puts the matter into a simplistic context, but that is the reality of what 73p could buy.

Thirty years ago, it was estimated that 500 people in this country—and by this country, for the benefit of my friends in the SNP, I am talking about the United Kingdom—had reached 100. Today, it is estimated that more than 6,000 people are 100 or older. That shows how ages are increasing, and how the older population is increasing. The other day, Wendy Alexander announced a 20-year programme of intent, which met with mixed reactions. However, no Parliament can afford not to look to the future and plan accordingly.

On 27 April, the Government actuary's department produced a series of projections that were based on figures that had been issued by the Registrar General for Scotland. By 2021, Scotland's population is expected to fall from its 1998 level of 5.12 million to 5.06 million. During that period, the number of children under 16 is set to fall to 85 per cent of its present level. However, the number of Scots who are older than the pensionable age is set to rise by 8 per cent, which will bring that section of the population to just fewer than 1 million, after taking into account the change in the retirement age for women, from 60 to 65. Without that change, the rise would have been 28 per cent, according to the statisticians.

Tony Blair and Donald Dewar claim that their priority is the poorest pensioner. One must say that, at times, they plead like a pair of Pharisees.

What is the reality? The European Commission has adopted a working definition, which states that people face social exclusion if their income is less than half the national average. The Government's own sources suggested that, in 1997, a single person without a car, who lived in rented accommodation modestly but adequately, needed a gross weekly income of £137.34. A married couple, who were similarly placed but who owned a car, needed £267.58. How many pensioners today receive those incomes? It should also be remembered that those figures were published in 1997 and were derived from 1996 data.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C713025", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 327.0, "ContributionID": 713025, "EditedText": "The minister may take a copy.", "EditedTextHTML": "The minister may take a copy.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C713027", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 331.0, "ContributionID": 713027, "EditedText": "Order.", "EditedTextHTML": "Order.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C713029", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 335.0, "ContributionID": 713029, "EditedText": "Does the minister agree with the study that was issued yesterday by the University of Bristol, which indicated that in the past two and half years the poverty gap in the eight Labour- controlled constituencies in Glasgow has widened? Will she and the Labour Administration accept some responsibility for that?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the minister agree with the study that was issued yesterday by the University of Bristol, which indicated that in the past two and half years the poverty gap in the eight Labour- controlled constituencies in Glasgow has widened? Will she and the Labour Administration accept some responsibility for that?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C713035", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 347.0, "ContributionID": 713035, "EditedText": "Did the minister enjoy it?", "EditedTextHTML": "Did the minister enjoy it?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C713042", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 361.0, "ContributionID": 713042, "EditedText": "That is not a point of order. The minister will continue her speech and wind up.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is not a point of order. The minister will continue her speech and wind up.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2080E130P217C713049", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lamont, Johann", "ID": 2080, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Pollok" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Johann Lamont", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Johann Lamont: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 376.0, "ContributionID": 713049, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2080E130P217C713051", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lamont, Johann", "ID": 2080, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Pollok" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Johann Lamont", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Johann Lamont: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 380.0, "ContributionID": 713051, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C713065", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 408.0, "ContributionID": 713065, "EditedText": "That concludes the debate on older people. Before we move to the next item of business, I apologise to members who were not called in the debate, which was considerably oversubscribed. We attempted to fit in as many members as possible.", "EditedTextHTML": "That concludes the debate on older people. Before we move to the next item of business, I apologise to members who were not called in the debate, which was considerably oversubscribed. We attempted to fit in as many members as possible.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C713066", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27150, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 410.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 410.0, "ID": 27150, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Patricia Ferguson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 411.0, "ContributionID": 713066, "EditedText": "The next item of business is consideration of business motion S1M-340, in the name of Tom McCabe, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau.", "EditedTextHTML": "The next item of business is consideration of business motion S1M-340, in the name of Tom McCabe, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713067", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27150, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 410.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 410.0, "ID": 27150, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 413.0, "ContributionID": 713067, "EditedText": "Motion moved,", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion moved,

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713070", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27150, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 410.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 410.0, "ID": 27150, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 416.0, "ContributionID": 713070, "EditedText": "2.30 pm Time for Reflection followed by Ministerial Statement on Local Government Finance followed by Debate on Executive Motion on Sea Fisheries followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions followed by Executive motion on Sea Fishing Grants (Charges) Bill", "EditedTextHTML": "2.30 pm Time for Reflection followed by Ministerial Statement on Local Government Finance followed by Debate on Executive Motion on Sea Fisheries followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions followed by Executive motion on Sea Fishing Grants (Charges) Bill

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713076", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27150, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 410.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 410.0, "ID": 27150, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 422.0, "ContributionID": 713076, "EditedText": "2.30 pm Question Time", "EditedTextHTML": "2.30 pm Question Time

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713077", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27150, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 410.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 410.0, "ID": 27150, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 423.0, "ContributionID": 713077, "EditedText": "3.00 pm Open Question Time followed by, no later than 3.15 pm Continuation of Stage 1 Debate on the Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill", "EditedTextHTML": "3.00 pm Open Question Time followed by, no later than 3.15 pm Continuation of Stage 1 Debate on the Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713083", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27150, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 410.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 410.0, "ID": 27150, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 429.0, "ContributionID": 713083, "EditedText": "5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business", "EditedTextHTML": "5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C713089", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27150, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 410.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 410.0, "ID": 27150, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 435.0, "ContributionID": 713089, "EditedText": "No member has asked to speak against the motion. Interruption. Order. We are still discussing business. The question is, that business motion S1M-340 be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "No member has asked to speak against the motion. [Interruption.] Order. We are still discussing business.

The question is, that business motion S1M-340 be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713090", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27150, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 410.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 410.0, "ID": 27150, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 437.0, "ContributionID": 713090, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713092", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Lead Committee", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27151, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 438.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 438.0, "ID": 27151, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 440.0, "ContributionID": 713092, "EditedText": "That the Parliament agrees the following designation of Lead Committee—", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament agrees the following designation of Lead Committee—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1892E34P73C713098", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27152, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 447.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27153, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 448.0, "QuestionHeading": "Compulsory Purchase", "QuestionHeadingID": 27154, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 451.0, "DisplayOrder": 451.0, "ID": 27154, "ParentID": 27153 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Fergusson, Alex", "ID": 1892, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Fergusson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "1. Alex Fergusson (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 452.0, "ContributionID": 713098, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it has reviewed the powers of private companies, public sector organisations and other entities in relation to compulsory purchase in the light of the incorporation into Scots law of the European convention on human rights. (S1O-746)", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it has reviewed the powers of private companies, public sector organisations and other entities in relation to compulsory purchase in the light of the incorporation into Scots law of the European convention on human rights. (S1O-746)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2118E157P454C713106", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27152, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 447.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27153, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 448.0, "QuestionHeading": "Offender Rehabilitation", "QuestionHeadingID": 27155, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 464.0, "DisplayOrder": 464.0, "ID": 27155, "ParentID": 27153 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Quinan, Mr Lloyd", "ID": 2118, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lloyd Quinan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Quinan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 469.0, "ContributionID": 713106, "EditedText": "Given that the prison population in Scotland in any year normally rises to around 30,000, and given the fact that—according to the Scottish Prison Service—5,000 places are available in Scottish prisons for drug rehabilitation, does the minister agree that our prisons have inadequate provision to deal properly with the rehabilitation of drug abusers?", "EditedTextHTML": "Given that the prison population in Scotland in any year normally rises to around 30,000, and given the fact that—according to the Scottish Prison Service—5,000 places are available in Scottish prisons for drug rehabilitation, does the minister agree that our prisons have inadequate provision to deal properly with the rehabilitation of drug abusers?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2118E157P454C713108", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27152, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 447.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27153, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 448.0, "QuestionHeading": "Offender Rehabilitation", "QuestionHeadingID": 27155, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 464.0, "DisplayOrder": 464.0, "ID": 27155, "ParentID": 27153 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Quinan, Mr Lloyd", "ID": 2118, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lloyd Quinan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Quinan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 473.0, "ContributionID": 713108, "EditedText": "Will Mr MacKay tell me what measures—", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr MacKay tell me what measures—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C713112", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27152, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 447.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27153, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 448.0, "QuestionHeading": "International Criminal Court", "QuestionHeadingID": 27156, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 477.0, "DisplayOrder": 477.0, "ID": 27156, "ParentID": 27153 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 482.0, "ContributionID": 713112, "EditedText": "Yes. I should explain to the Parliament that this is an important piece of legislation. It is a major advance in international justice to deter potential dictators and war criminals and to bring justice for victims, even across international borders. Observation of those international obligations is a devolved matter. As it will involve changes to Scottish law, procedure and jurisdiction, it is the intention of the Executive to bring forward legislation in this Parliament to parallel legislation that will be brought forward at Westminster for England and Wales.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes. I should explain to the Parliament that this is an important piece of legislation. It is a major advance in international justice to deter potential dictators and war criminals and to bring justice for victims, even

across international borders. Observation of those international obligations is a devolved matter. As it will involve changes to Scottish law, procedure and jurisdiction, it is the intention of the Executive to bring forward legislation in this Parliament to parallel legislation that will be brought forward at Westminster for England and Wales.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C713117", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27152, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 447.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27153, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 448.0, "QuestionHeading": "Hepatitis C", "QuestionHeadingID": 27158, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 491.0, "DisplayOrder": 491.0, "ID": 27158, "ParentID": 27153 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 494.0, "ContributionID": 713117, "EditedText": "Has the minister seen the July report from the Scottish Centre for Infection and Environmental Health, which estimated the figure of known diagnosed cases of hepatitis C at 6,367, but, more important, stated that the number of unknown cases exceeded that known figure severalfold? What are the implications of that for health treatment throughout the country? Furthermore, does she agree that we urgently need national treatment guidelines and far more research on the prevalence of this exceedingly serious disease?", "EditedTextHTML": "Has the minister seen the July report from the Scottish Centre for Infection and Environmental Health, which estimated the figure of known diagnosed cases of hepatitis C at 6,367, but, more important, stated that the number of unknown cases exceeded that known figure severalfold? What are the implications of that for health treatment throughout the country? Furthermore, does she agree that we urgently need national treatment guidelines and far more research on the prevalence of this exceedingly serious disease?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1931E120P189C713123", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27152, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 447.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27153, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 448.0, "QuestionHeading": "Frail Elderly People", "QuestionHeadingID": 27160, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 505.0, "DisplayOrder": 505.0, "ID": 27160, "ParentID": 27153 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Muldoon, Bristow", "ID": 1931, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Livingston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bristow Muldoon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bristow Muldoon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 508.0, "ContributionID": 713123, "EditedText": "Is the minister aware of initiatives such as the close co-operation between Lothian Health Board and West Lothian Council to put additional resources into care of the elderly? Does he see that as a model, greater use of which should be encouraged throughout Scotland?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is the minister aware of initiatives such as the close co-operation between Lothian Health Board and West Lothian Council to put additional resources into care of the elderly? Does he see that as a model, greater use of which should be encouraged throughout Scotland?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1768E72P274C713125", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27152, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 447.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27153, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 448.0, "QuestionHeading": "Textile Industry", "QuestionHeadingID": 27161, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 512.0, "DisplayOrder": 512.0, "ID": 27161, "ParentID": 27153 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Murray, Elaine", "ID": 1768, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumfries" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Murray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "8. Dr Elaine Murray (Dumfries) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 513.0, "ContributionID": 713125, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will encourage Scottish Enterprise to develop a national strategy for the textile industry. (S1O-769) The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning (Henry McLeish): The Scottish textile network, a Scottish Enterprise-funded forum for the exchange of information between industry and support agencies, was launched in March this year. The network is to develop a strategy for the Scottish textile industry, taking into consideration the strategy—due to be published around the end of this year—that was drawn up by the UK textiles and clothing strategy group.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will encourage Scottish Enterprise to develop a national strategy for the textile industry. (S1O-769) The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning (Henry McLeish): The Scottish textile network, a Scottish Enterprise-funded forum for the exchange of information between industry and support agencies, was launched in March this year. The network is to develop a strategy for the Scottish textile industry, taking into consideration the strategy—due to be published around the end of this year—that was drawn up by the UK textiles and clothing strategy group.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1768E72P274C713126", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27152, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 447.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27153, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 448.0, "QuestionHeading": "Textile Industry", "QuestionHeadingID": 27161, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 512.0, "DisplayOrder": 512.0, "ID": 27161, "ParentID": 27153 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Murray, Elaine", "ID": 1768, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumfries" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Murray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Murray: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 515.0, "ContributionID": 713126, "EditedText": "Is the minister aware of the recent successes of some textile companies in the Langholm area of my Dumfries constituency, which have overcome many problems to capture niche markets for quality products in Italy and other parts of Europe? Is he aware that, despite that success, the directors of those companies believe that the Scottish textile industry would benefit from the development of a cluster strategy and from a move to address training problems to equip textile workers with skills in modern technology to ensure continued success?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is the minister aware of the recent successes of some textile companies in the Langholm area of my Dumfries constituency, which have overcome many problems to capture niche markets for quality products in Italy and other parts of Europe? Is he aware that, despite that success, the directors of those companies believe that the Scottish textile industry would benefit from the development of a cluster strategy and from a move to address training problems to equip textile workers with skills in modern technology to ensure continued success?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2090E83P266C713129", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27152, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 447.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27153, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 448.0, "QuestionHeading": "Housing Associations", "QuestionHeadingID": 27162, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 519.0, "DisplayOrder": 519.0, "ID": 27162, "ParentID": 27153 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAllion, Mr John", "ID": 2090, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dundee East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John McAllion", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McAllion: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 522.0, "ContributionID": 713129, "EditedText": "The last Scottish housing minister at Westminster promised to set up a partnership code of practice for all housing providers, with a definition of community ownership as, for example, a locally controlled organisation with a maximum number of housing units. Will the minister tell us what progress has been made towards making good that promise, or has the promise been dropped as a consequence of devolution?", "EditedTextHTML": "The last Scottish housing minister at Westminster promised to set up a partnership code of practice for all housing providers, with a definition of community ownership as, for example, a locally controlled organisation with a maximum number of housing units. Will the minister tell us what progress has been made towards making good that promise, or has the promise been dropped as a consequence of devolution?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2228E151P202C713132", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27152, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 447.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27153, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 448.0, "QuestionHeading": "Consultative Steering Group Report", "QuestionHeadingID": 27163, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 526.0, "DisplayOrder": 526.0, "ID": 27163, "ParentID": 27153 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McCabe, Tom", "ID": 2228, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Tom McCabe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Parliament (Mr Tom McCabe): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 529.0, "ContributionID": 713132, "EditedText": "Yes.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2228E151P202C713136", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27152, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 447.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27153, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 448.0, "QuestionHeading": "Consultative Steering Group Report", "QuestionHeadingID": 27163, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 526.0, "DisplayOrder": 526.0, "ID": 27163, "ParentID": 27153 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McCabe, Tom", "ID": 2228, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Tom McCabe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McCabe: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 537.0, "ContributionID": 713136, "EditedText": "As I have previously indicated, the Executive is committed to the principle of consultation. All the bills that the First Minister announced in June have been or will be consulted on. It is for a committee to consider and comment on any consultation that has taken place. It is also within the gift of a committee, if it felt that any consultation was inadequate, to take further evidence and perhaps take the matter further.", "EditedTextHTML": "As I have previously indicated, the Executive is committed to the principle of consultation. All the bills that the First Minister announced in June have been or will be consulted on. It is for a committee to consider and comment on any consultation that has taken place. It is also within the gift of a committee, if it felt that any consultation was inadequate, to take further evidence and perhaps take the matter further.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1840E82P158C713137", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27152, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 447.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27153, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 448.0, "QuestionHeading": "Pre-school Education", "QuestionHeadingID": 27164, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 539.0, "DisplayOrder": 539.0, "ID": 27164, "ParentID": 27153 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macmillan, Maureen", "ID": 1840, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Maureen Macmillan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "11. Maureen Macmillan (Highlands and Islands) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 540.0, "ContributionID": 713137, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive how many (a) males and (b) people from ethnic minorities are employed in pre-school education in Scotland. (S1O-741) The Presiding Officer: I call Peter Peacock to answer—and there has been a request that you should speak up, Mr Peacock.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive how many (a) males and (b) people from ethnic minorities are employed in pre-school education in Scotland. (S1O-741) The Presiding Officer: I call Peter Peacock to answer—and there has been a request that you should speak up, Mr Peacock.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2167E79P155C713138", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27152, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 447.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27153, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 448.0, "QuestionHeading": "Pre-school Education", "QuestionHeadingID": 27164, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 539.0, "DisplayOrder": 539.0, "ID": 27164, "ParentID": 27153 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Peacock, Peter", "ID": 2167, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Peter Peacock", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Children and Education (Peter Peacock): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 542.0, "ContributionID": 713138, "EditedText": "I am delighted that so many people want to hear what I have to say. MEMBERS: \"Hear, hear.\" Thank you very much. An estimated 1 per cent of the total staff working in centres providing pre-school education in February 1999 were male. Information on ethnicity is not currently held centrally.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am delighted that so many people want to hear what I have to say. [MEMBERS: \"Hear, hear.\"] Thank you very much.

An estimated 1 per cent of the total staff working in centres providing pre-school education in February 1999 were male. Information on ethnicity is not currently held centrally.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1840E82P158C713139", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27152, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 447.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27153, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 448.0, "QuestionHeading": "Pre-school Education", "QuestionHeadingID": 27164, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 539.0, "DisplayOrder": 539.0, "ID": 27164, "ParentID": 27153 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macmillan, Maureen", "ID": 1840, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Maureen Macmillan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Maureen Macmillan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 544.0, "ContributionID": 713139, "EditedText": "That is a worrying statistic. It is vital to have a balanced work force, especially in early education, when role models are particularly important to the development of young children. Can the deputy minister tell me whether there are any plans to have more men and people from ethnic minorities working in pre-school education? Will they be employed by the local authorities?", "EditedTextHTML": "That is a worrying statistic. It is vital to have a balanced work force, especially in early education, when role models are particularly important to the development of young children. Can the deputy minister tell me whether there are any plans to have more men and people from ethnic minorities working in pre-school education? Will they be employed by the local authorities?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713146", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27152, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 447.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27153, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 448.0, "QuestionHeading": "School Closures (Cumbernauld)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27165, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 548.0, "DisplayOrder": 548.0, "ID": 27165, "ParentID": 27153 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 559.0, "ContributionID": 713146, "EditedText": "Order. You cannot remind the minister of anything, but you can ask him questions.", "EditedTextHTML": "Order. You cannot remind the minister of anything, but you can ask him questions.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C713154", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27152, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 447.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27153, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 448.0, "QuestionHeading": "Miscarriages (Greater Glasgow)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27166, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 565.0, "DisplayOrder": 565.0, "ID": 27166, "ParentID": 27153 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 576.0, "ContributionID": 713154, "EditedText": "I ask for members' forbearance—it is difficult to give a clear answer to a confused question. However, I am clear about the Executive's absolute commitment to providing additional investment for the health service and to supporting local health authorities in discharging their functions effectively. We are also committed to taking action across the range of our responsibilities to reduce health inequalities and wider inequalities, and to tackle poverty across Scotland as well as in Glasgow.", "EditedTextHTML": "I ask for members' forbearance—it is difficult to give a clear answer to a confused question. However, I am clear about the Executive's absolute commitment to providing additional investment for the health service and to supporting local health authorities in discharging their functions effectively. We are also committed to taking action across the range of our responsibilities to reduce health inequalities and wider inequalities, and to tackle poverty across Scotland as well as in Glasgow.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2117E79P104C713155", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27152, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 447.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27153, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 448.0, "QuestionHeading": "NHS Equipment", "QuestionHeadingID": 27167, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 578.0, "DisplayOrder": 578.0, "ID": 27167, "ParentID": 27153 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macdonald, Lewis", "ID": 2117, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lewis Macdonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "14. Lewis Macdonald (Aberdeen Central) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 579.0, "ContributionID": 713155, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what provision it is making for the replacement of medical and laboratory equipment in the national health service in Scotland. (S1O-772) The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): Capital resources of more than £45 million are allocated to individual NHS trusts on an annual basis for investment in their estate, including the replacement of medical and laboratory equipment. It is for individual NHS trusts to determine local priorities for the provision of equipment and how they should be funded from the resources available.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what provision it is making for the replacement of medical and laboratory equipment in the national health service in Scotland. (S1O-772) The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): Capital resources of more than £45 million are allocated to individual NHS trusts on an annual basis for investment in their estate, including the replacement of medical and laboratory equipment. It is for individual NHS trusts to determine local priorities for the provision of equipment and how they should be funded from the resources available.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C713159", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27152, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 447.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27153, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 448.0, "QuestionHeading": "Rural Challenge Funding", "QuestionHeadingID": 27168, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 585.0, "DisplayOrder": 585.0, "ID": 27168, "ParentID": 27153 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 588.0, "ContributionID": 713159, "EditedText": "I thank the minister for his response. However, given that this is a local community project and that the community has put a huge amount of work into raising the necessary funds to get the project off the ground, can the minister assure me that the review process will be completed by 31 March? Any further delay will mean that the project will forfeit £30,000 from Argyll and the Islands Enterprise and £42,000 from Scottish Natural Heritage, in addition to the £50,000 from the Scottish Office rural challenge fund.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the minister for his response. However, given that this is a local community project and that the community has put a huge amount of work into raising the necessary funds to get the project off the ground, can the minister assure me that the review process will be completed by 31 March? Any further delay will mean that the project will forfeit £30,000 from Argyll and the Islands Enterprise and £42,000 from Scottish Natural Heritage, in addition to the £50,000 from the Scottish Office rural challenge fund.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7326059+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2068E171P304C713161", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27152, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 447.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27153, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 448.0, "QuestionHeading": "Chancellor of the Exchequer (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27169, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 592.0, "DisplayOrder": 592.0, "ID": 27169, "ParentID": 27153 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stone, Jamie", "ID": 2068, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie Stone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "16. Mr Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 593.0, "ContributionID": 713161, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive when the First Minister last met the Chancellor of the Exchequer and what they discussed. (S1O-767) The First Minister (Donald Dewar): I met the Chancellor of the Exchequer yesterday, an encounter that attracted a rather flatteringly large amount of attention.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive when the First Minister last met the Chancellor of the Exchequer and what they discussed. (S1O-767) The First Minister (Donald Dewar): I met the Chancellor of the Exchequer yesterday, an encounter that attracted a rather flatteringly large amount of attention.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7326059+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1783E59P270C713016", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Baillie, Jackie", "ID": 1783, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumbarton" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Jackie Baillie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Jackie Baillie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 309.0, "ContributionID": 713016, "EditedText": "I will give way shortly. Free eye tests for all pensioners and free TV licences for over-75s mean that pensioners' money goes further. In Scotland, an extra £300 million is going into community care, half of which will go on older people's services, with £10 million specifically earmarked for the delivery of carers' needs and services. What of the Tories?", "EditedTextHTML": "I will give way shortly. Free eye tests for all pensioners and free TV licences for over-75s mean that pensioners' money goes further. In Scotland, an extra £300 million is going into community care, half of which will go on older people's services, with £10 million specifically earmarked for the delivery of carers' needs and services.

What of the Tories?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:33:46.8988034+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1783E59P270C713022", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Baillie, Jackie", "ID": 1783, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumbarton" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Jackie Baillie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Jackie Baillie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 321.0, "ContributionID": 713022, "EditedText": "I am one of those people who suffers from a lack of sleep, so I have read the SNP manifesto. I can tell the chamber that there was not one item that referred to pensioners.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am one of those people who suffers from a lack of sleep, so I have read the SNP manifesto. I can tell the chamber that there was not one item that referred to pensioners.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:33:46.8988034+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1783E59P270C713026", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Baillie, Jackie", "ID": 1783, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumbarton" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Jackie Baillie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Jackie Baillie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 329.0, "ContributionID": 713026, "EditedText": "Perhaps we should search for the SNP's proposals for pensioners in the infamous economic strategy for independence. Were they in there? Nope, the strategy contained nothing extra for pensioners—only forecasts that copy the policies of the Department of Social Security and the Treasury. Interruption.", "EditedTextHTML": "Perhaps we should search for the SNP's proposals for pensioners in the infamous economic strategy for independence. Were they in there? Nope, the strategy contained nothing extra for pensioners—only forecasts that copy the policies of the Department of Social Security and the Treasury. [Interruption.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:33:46.8988034+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1783E59P270C713028", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Baillie, Jackie", "ID": 1783, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumbarton" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Jackie Baillie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Jackie Baillie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 333.0, "ContributionID": 713028, "EditedText": "Why does the SNP not give any costed pledges now? The answer is that it has given up its claims of a fiscal surplus of billions and admitted a deficit of billions. That is why it can promise nothing and deliver nothing for pensioners.", "EditedTextHTML": "Why does the SNP not give any costed pledges now? The answer is that it has given up its claims of a fiscal surplus of billions and admitted a deficit of billions. That is why it can promise nothing and deliver nothing for pensioners.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:33:46.8988034+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1783E59P270C713030", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Baillie, Jackie", "ID": 1783, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumbarton" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Jackie Baillie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Jackie Baillie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 337.0, "ContributionID": 713030, "EditedText": "The figures in that study are for the period up to 1994. Earlier, Mary Scanlon said that she readily accepts blame for the period 1979 to 1997, when the Conservatives built up child poverty and pensioner poverty. That is why I will not take lectures from her. The SNP has no idea how it would deliver existing levels of pensions and benefits. If that seems reckless to members, it gets worse. Let us not forget, as Des McNulty helpfully reminded us, that, just a few weeks ago, Kenny MacAskill made the staggering suggestion that we should spend £900 million on roads—policies on the hoof from a party on the run. How would the SNP do that? By raising income tax—again? By cutting benefits and pensions? Who would pay for the SNP's proposals? We know who would pay for them— ordinary Scots. Scottish pensioners would pay the price. Some time ago, Margo MacDonald was quotedin The Express (Scotland) as saying in response to the SNP's proposed tax hike that people on low incomes would lose out.", "EditedTextHTML": "The figures in that study are for the period up to 1994. Earlier, Mary Scanlon said that she readily accepts blame for the period 1979 to 1997, when the Conservatives built up child poverty and pensioner poverty. That is why I will not take lectures from her.

The SNP has no idea how it would deliver existing levels of pensions and benefits. If that seems reckless to members, it gets worse. Let us not forget, as Des McNulty helpfully reminded us, that, just a few weeks ago, Kenny MacAskill made the staggering suggestion that we should spend £900 million on roads—policies on the hoof from a party on the run. How would the SNP do that? By raising income tax—again? By cutting benefits and pensions? Who would pay for the SNP's proposals? We know who would pay for them— ordinary Scots. Scottish pensioners would pay the price.

Some time ago, Margo MacDonald was quoted

in The Express (Scotland) as saying in response to the SNP's proposed tax hike that people on low incomes would lose out.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:33:46.8988034+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1783E59P270C713032", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Baillie, Jackie", "ID": 1783, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumbarton" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Jackie Baillie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Jackie Baillie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 341.0, "ContributionID": 713032, "EditedText": "In terms of policies for pensioners, the SNP had nothing to offer at the election and it has had absolutely nothing to offer since. No policies, but lots of pointless press releases—the poor journalists' fax machines are collapsing under the weight of SNP rant and rhetoric. The latest offering was a press release announcing the need for a shadow minister. It is a shame that the SNP did not discover that need earlier. However, far be it from me to suggest that this is just cheap political point-scoring; not even the SNP could sink that low. What about Tommy Sheridan, who strikes poses but whose party's manifesto does not offer any commitment to restoring the link between pensions and earnings?", "EditedTextHTML": "In terms of policies for pensioners, the SNP had nothing to offer at the election and it has had absolutely nothing to offer since. No policies, but lots of pointless press releases—the poor journalists' fax machines are collapsing under the weight of SNP rant and rhetoric. The latest offering was a press release announcing the need for a shadow minister. It is a shame that the SNP did not discover that need earlier. However, far be it from me to suggest that this is just cheap political point-scoring; not even the SNP could sink that low.

What about Tommy Sheridan, who strikes poses but whose party's manifesto does not offer any commitment to restoring the link between pensions and earnings?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:33:46.8988034+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1783E59P270C713034", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Baillie, Jackie", "ID": 1783, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumbarton" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Jackie Baillie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Jackie Baillie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 345.0, "ContributionID": 713034, "EditedText": "I have read the whole of the manifesto, and not one of Tommy's promises—", "EditedTextHTML": "I have read the whole of the manifesto, and not one of Tommy's promises—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:33:46.8988034+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1783E59P270C713038", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Baillie, Jackie", "ID": 1783, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumbarton" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Jackie Baillie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Jackie Baillie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 353.0, "ContributionID": 713038, "EditedText": "I welcome that initiative. We know the importance of working together on matters of shared concern and do not adopt an isolationist position. Bringing together ministers, exchanging information and developing co-ordinated policy strategies will deliver the real benefits that we want for our older people. We will have a greater voice in those areas to ensure that the policies that the Scottish Executive and the Government develop achieve maximum results for our pensioners. Far be it from me to remind Donald Gorrie that his leader, Jim Wallace, supports the establishment of joint ministerial committees. I recognise that memory lapses do occasionally occur. The programme for government, which was produced by Labour and the Liberal Democrats working together, was based on listening to the people of Scotland and delivering what they want.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome that initiative. We know the importance of working together on matters of shared concern and do not adopt an isolationist position. Bringing together ministers, exchanging information and developing co-ordinated policy strategies will deliver the real benefits that we want for our older people. We will have a greater voice in those areas to ensure that the policies that the Scottish Executive and the Government develop achieve maximum results for our pensioners.

Far be it from me to remind Donald Gorrie that his leader, Jim Wallace, supports the establishment of joint ministerial committees. I recognise that memory lapses do occasionally occur.

The programme for government, which was produced by Labour and the Liberal Democrats working together, was based on listening to the people of Scotland and delivering what they want.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:33:46.8988034+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1783E59P270C713003", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Baillie, Jackie", "ID": 1783, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumbarton" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Jackie Baillie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Communities (Jackie Baillie): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 281.0, "ContributionID": 713003, "EditedText": "It is a fact that such a target is contained within our programme for government and will affect 100,000 households by 2003 at a cost of about £40 million. Perhaps the SNP should read the programme for government.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is a fact that such a target is contained within our programme for government and will affect 100,000 households by 2003 at a cost of about £40 million. Perhaps the SNP should read the programme for government.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:32:53.221528+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C712877", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 7.0, "ContributionID": 712877, "EditedText": "In speaking to the motion in the name of John Swinney, I extend a special welcome to the pensioners who are in the public gallery this morning and to those who are outside the chamber and will shortly be coming into the gallery. Pensioners have come from all parts of Scotland today to hear what the Scottish Parliament is going to do for them, and to ensure that this Parliament uses its powers to the maximum to improve their standard of living. They also want to hear the Scottish Parliament demand from the Westminster Parliament a better deal for our pensioners, especially on the level of pensions. For many pensioners in Scotland, the outcome of today's debate will be a litmus test of how worthwhile and worthy this Parliament is. If we fail to improve the standard and quality of pensioners' lives in Scotland, the Parliament will be seen as a damp squib. If we stand up and fight for the rights of our pensioners, the Parliament will be seen as a people's Parliament. We owe it to our pensioners to stand up and fight for them, to be counted on their behalf. We are not concerned only about the level of pensions. Age discrimination, poor health services, crime, the fear of crime, transport, employment and many other issues outlined in the \"Better Government for Older People\" action plan, copies of which are being distributed outside the chamber this morning, all affect our senior citizens and will be addressed in this debate. Far too many pensioners in Scotland today live in poverty. The basic state pension is now worth only 15 per cent of average weekly income—a national disgrace. Because the state pension is so low, 48 per cent of pensioners in Scotland rely on income support or other benefits to top up their state pension to help make ends meet. According to Help the Aged, 70,000 pensioners in Scotland are currently living in severe poverty, one in three suffers from fuel poverty, and 103,000 households over 60 years of age have no central heating of any kind. According to the Registrar General for Scotland, there were 200,200 excess winter deaths among people over the age of 60 in 1997-98, the last year for which figures are available. By any standards, that is a damning indictment of how we treat our pensioners. The report that was released yesterday, \"The Widening Gap: Health Inequalities and Policy in Britain\", highlights the north-south divide in health and wealth in Britain. People who live in Scotland, including pensioners, come off worse. There are 2.8 times as many people with a limiting long-term illness in Govan than in Wokingham. Eight of the 15 poorest constituencies in Britain, including that of the Deputy Minister for Local Government, are in Glasgow. Glasgow is the sick city of Britain. That is an indictment of 70 years of local Labour rule—or misrule—in Glasgow. Despite the grinding level of pensioner poverty in Scotland, new Labour at Westminster and new Labour in the Scottish Executive have failed utterly to take the measures that are necessary to tackle the deep-rooted problem. More joint ministerial committees—more talking shops—between London and Edinburgh will not put money in the pockets of pensioners. We need action, not more committees and talking shops—especially not ones announced from London. I will deal first with the causes of poverty. It is noticeable that neither of the amendments lodged by the Tories and the Labour Executive mention the need for a decent basic state retirement pension. Gordon Brown's announced increase in the basic state pension of a miserly 73p a week from next April is an insult to our pensioners, especially when one considers that in the same speech he announced big tax cuts for big business and his fat-cat pals in the City of London. The 73p increase would not buy even half a pint of beer. Indeed, it is such a pathetic amount that many pensioners wonder aloud whether it is worth collecting. Every other Labour Government since the war has increased the state retirement pension significantly within weeks of coming to office, despite dire financial situations. For example, in 1964 Harold Wilson increased the basic pension from 20.9 per cent to 22.1 per cent of average earnings within four weeks of coming to power. In 1974, when he was returned to power, the first thing he did was increase the pension by a whopping 17 per cent. New Labour has not done that.", "EditedTextHTML": "In speaking to the motion in the name of John Swinney, I extend a special welcome to the pensioners who are in the public gallery this morning and to those who are outside the chamber and will shortly be coming into the gallery.

Pensioners have come from all parts of Scotland today to hear what the Scottish Parliament is going to do for them, and to ensure that this Parliament uses its powers to the maximum to improve their standard of living. They also want to hear the Scottish Parliament demand from the Westminster Parliament a better deal for our pensioners, especially on the level of pensions.

For many pensioners in Scotland, the outcome of today's debate will be a litmus test of how worthwhile and worthy this Parliament is. If we fail to improve the standard and quality of pensioners' lives in Scotland, the Parliament will be seen as a damp squib. If we stand up and fight for the rights of our pensioners, the Parliament will be seen as a people's Parliament. We owe it to our pensioners to stand up and fight for them, to be counted on their behalf.

We are not concerned only about the level of pensions. Age discrimination, poor health services, crime, the fear of crime, transport, employment and many other issues outlined in the \"Better Government for Older People\" action plan, copies of which are being distributed outside the chamber this morning, all affect our senior citizens and will be addressed in this debate.

Far too many pensioners in Scotland today live in poverty. The basic state pension is now worth only 15 per cent of average weekly income—a national disgrace. Because the state pension is so low, 48 per cent of pensioners in Scotland rely on income support or other benefits to top up their state pension to help make ends meet. According to Help the Aged, 70,000 pensioners in Scotland are currently living in severe poverty, one in three suffers from fuel poverty, and 103,000 households over 60 years of age have no central heating of any kind. According to the Registrar General for Scotland, there were 200,200 excess winter deaths among people over the age of 60 in 1997-98, the last year for which figures are available. By any standards, that is a damning indictment of how we treat our pensioners.

The report that was released yesterday, \"The Widening Gap: Health Inequalities and Policy in Britain\", highlights the north-south divide in health and wealth in Britain. People who live in Scotland, including pensioners, come off worse. There are

2.8 times as many people with a limiting long-term illness in Govan than in Wokingham. Eight of the 15 poorest constituencies in Britain, including that of the Deputy Minister for Local Government, are in Glasgow. Glasgow is the sick city of Britain. That is an indictment of 70 years of local Labour rule—or misrule—in Glasgow. Despite the grinding level of pensioner poverty in Scotland, new Labour at Westminster and new Labour in the Scottish Executive have failed utterly to take the measures that are necessary to tackle the deep-rooted problem. More joint ministerial committees—more talking shops—between London and Edinburgh will not put money in the pockets of pensioners. We need action, not more committees and talking shops—especially not ones announced from London.

I will deal first with the causes of poverty. It is noticeable that neither of the amendments lodged by the Tories and the Labour Executive mention the need for a decent basic state retirement pension. Gordon Brown's announced increase in the basic state pension of a miserly 73p a week from next April is an insult to our pensioners, especially when one considers that in the same speech he announced big tax cuts for big business and his fat-cat pals in the City of London. The 73p increase would not buy even half a pint of beer. Indeed, it is such a pathetic amount that many pensioners wonder aloud whether it is worth collecting.

Every other Labour Government since the war has increased the state retirement pension significantly within weeks of coming to office,

despite dire financial situations. For example, in 1964 Harold Wilson increased the basic pension from 20.9 per cent to 22.1 per cent of average earnings within four weeks of coming to power. In 1974, when he was returned to power, the first thing he did was increase the pension by a whopping 17 per cent. New Labour has not done that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C712887", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 27.0, "ContributionID": 712887, "EditedText": "Mr Gallie, you have had two interventions already. I asked Mr Neil to keep the length of his speech down because of the number of members who want to speak. There is no need to promote interventions artificially.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Gallie, you have had two interventions already. I asked Mr Neil to keep the length of his speech down because of the number of members who want to speak. There is no need to promote interventions artificially.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C712890", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 33.0, "ContributionID": 712890, "EditedText": "I am winding up, Des; I have obviously wound you up, too. Our pensioners need action to restore the link between pensions and earnings; to end fuel poverty once and for all; to abolish means-testing for long-term residential care; and to abolish the inequitable standing charges imposed by the private utility companies for gas, electricity and telephones. We are prevented from doing the right thing for our pensioners not by lack of money, but by lack of political will on the part of new Labour. If Labour and Gordon Brown refuse to provide our pensioners with a decent standing of living, the Scottish Parliament must break with London. The time has long come for the Scottish Parliament to take an independent stance and demand justice for our pensioners. Let the word go out from the Scottish Parliament today to every pensioner in Scotland: we are on your side. We are determined that justice will be done for our pensioners. Let us prove to them that this is not a damp-squib Parliament. Let us show that it is a people's Parliament—a pensioners' Parliament. Let us do that for our senior citizens today. I move,That the Parliament recognises the plight of our pensioners, many of whom are living on or near the poverty line; condemns the lack of action by both the Scottish Executive and Her Majesty's Government to bring about a significant increase in the standard and quality of living of pensioners, and calls upon both the Scottish Executive and Her Majesty's Government to implement a comprehensive action plan to rectify this situation, the top priority of which should be a substantial increase in the basic state retirement pension and the re-establishment of the link with earnings for future pension increases.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am winding up, Des; I have obviously wound you up, too.

Our pensioners need action to restore the link between pensions and earnings; to end fuel poverty once and for all; to abolish means-testing for long-term residential care; and to abolish the inequitable standing charges imposed by the private utility companies for gas, electricity and telephones.

We are prevented from doing the right thing for our pensioners not by lack of money, but by lack of political will on the part of new Labour. If Labour and Gordon Brown refuse to provide our pensioners with a decent standing of living, the Scottish Parliament must break with London. The time has long come for the Scottish Parliament to take an independent stance and demand justice for our pensioners. Let the word go out from the Scottish Parliament today to every pensioner in Scotland: we are on your side. We are determined that justice will be done for our pensioners. Let us prove to them that this is not a damp-squib Parliament. Let us show that it is a people's Parliament—a pensioners' Parliament. Let us do that for our senior citizens today.

I move,

That the Parliament recognises the plight of our pensioners, many of whom are living on or near the poverty line; condemns the lack of action by both the Scottish Executive and Her Majesty's Government to bring about a significant increase in the standard and quality of living of pensioners, and calls upon both the Scottish Executive and Her Majesty's Government to implement a comprehensive action plan to rectify this situation, the top priority of which should be a substantial increase in the basic state retirement pension and the re-establishment of the link with earnings for future pension increases.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C712891", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 35.0, "ContributionID": 712891, "EditedText": "I thank Mr Neil for taking much less than the allotted time and setting a good example. I call Iain Gray to move the Executive amendment.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank Mr Neil for taking much less than the allotted time and setting a good example. I call Iain Gray to move the Executive amendment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2033E106P139C712892", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gray, Iain", "ID": 2033, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Pentlands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Iain Gray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Community Care (Iain Gray): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 38.0, "ContributionID": 712892, "EditedText": "The Executive believes that Scotland must value and support its older people. I am happy to begin with a point on which I agree with Alex Neil's remarks, because I fear that there will be little more that I agree with. We believe that we must value and support our older people. That is exactly why the \"Social Justice\" report, launched last week, pledged that we will tackle poverty and injustice for older people; why yesterday a joint ministerial action committee on pensioner poverty was announced; and why, as lead minister for older people, I have been attending—with Westminster colleagues— the inter-ministerial group on older people. Honestly addressing the needs of older people demands co-ordination across Parliaments and across Administrations. It is too important a matter for us not to do that. That co-ordination is the way in which we can build, for example, on the national minimum income guarantee that addresses the needs of the poorest pensioners and will benefit 125,000 people in Scotland when it rises next April, in line with the increase in earnings. We can build on initiatives such as the winter fuel payment for all pensioners, which is rising from £20 to £100, free eye tests for the over-60s and free television licences for the over-75s. Such initiatives are making the new politics work, not for politicians— there is more to the new politics than us addressing one other by name—but for our people, by adding value to the efforts of each Administration. To do that, the Scottish Parliament must strive to maximise the impact on older people's quality of life of those policy areas for which we have full responsibility. That is an honest approach, and we intend to take it. I was glad to hear Alex Neil say that this is not just about pensions. I was surprised, however, that he found very little to say about anything else. The Scottish Executive is devoting significant energy and resources to the needs of older people—by, for example, investing millions of pounds in the warm deal to upgrade 100,000 Scottish homes. Half the social work budget of £1.1 billion and nearly 40 per cent of the health budget—some £2 billion—is being spent on older people. We are determined to increase the effectiveness as well as the amount of those resources, to get away from the never-mind-the-quality-feel-the-width approach to the issue that is taken by so many others. We can do that only by listening to older people to identify their priorities. We can do that through initiatives such as the better government for older people network and the recent listening event in Aberdeen. We have to listen to older people and to respond honestly.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Executive believes that Scotland must value and support its older people. I am happy to begin with a point on which I agree with Alex Neil's remarks, because I fear that there will be little more that I agree with.

We believe that we must value and support our older people. That is exactly why the \"Social Justice\" report, launched last week, pledged that we will tackle poverty and injustice for older people; why yesterday a joint ministerial action committee on pensioner poverty was announced; and why, as lead minister for older people, I have been attending—with Westminster colleagues— the inter-ministerial group on older people. Honestly addressing the needs of older people demands co-ordination across Parliaments and across Administrations. It is too important a matter for us not to do that.

That co-ordination is the way in which we can build, for example, on the national minimum income guarantee that addresses the needs of the poorest pensioners and will benefit 125,000 people in Scotland when it rises next April, in line with the increase in earnings. We can build on initiatives such as the winter fuel payment for all pensioners, which is rising from £20 to £100, free eye tests for the over-60s and free television licences for the over-75s. Such initiatives are making the new politics work, not for politicians— there is more to the new politics than us addressing one other by name—but for our people, by adding value to the efforts of each Administration. To do that, the Scottish Parliament must strive to maximise the impact on older people's quality of life of those policy areas for which we have full responsibility. That is an honest approach, and we intend to take it.

I was glad to hear Alex Neil say that this is not just about pensions. I was surprised, however, that he found very little to say about anything else. The Scottish Executive is devoting significant energy and resources to the needs of older people—by, for example, investing millions of pounds in the warm deal to upgrade 100,000 Scottish homes. Half the social work budget of £1.1 billion and nearly 40 per cent of the health budget—some £2 billion—is being spent on older people. We are determined to increase the effectiveness as well as the amount of those resources, to get away from the never-mind-the-quality-feel-the-width approach to the issue that is taken by so many others.

We can do that only by listening to older people to identify their priorities. We can do that through initiatives such as the better government for older people network and the recent listening event in Aberdeen. We have to listen to older people and to respond honestly.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2105E44P74C712903", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harding, Mr Keith", "ID": 2105, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Harding", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Harding: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 61.0, "ContributionID": 712903, "EditedText": "I agree with what he said, and it was not a big increase in—", "EditedTextHTML": "I agree with what he said, and it was not a big increase in—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1892E34P73C712909", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Fergusson, Alex", "ID": 1892, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Fergusson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Fergusson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 73.0, "ContributionID": 712909, "EditedText": "I agree absolutely with Mr Neil. I did make a tremendous speech. Laughter. But at no point during that magnificent piece of oratory did I commit my party to a substantial increase in the state pension.", "EditedTextHTML": "I agree absolutely with Mr Neil. I did make a tremendous speech. [Laughter.] But at no point during that magnificent piece of oratory did I commit my party to a substantial increase in the state pension.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2105E44P74C712911", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harding, Mr Keith", "ID": 2105, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Harding", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Harding: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 77.0, "ContributionID": 712911, "EditedText": "As I was not present, I do not think that I can comment, but I thank Mr Fergusson for the intervention. I gave two examples of the ways in which we feel that Labour has failed the elderly. Although we agree with the Scottish National party on this, our means of addressing the problems of the elderly are different. Our aim in government was to achieve higher living standards for pensioners by maintaining the value of the state pension at the same time as encouraging greater take-up of occupational or private pensions.", "EditedTextHTML": "As I was not present, I do not think that I can comment, but I thank Mr Fergusson for the intervention.

I gave two examples of the ways in which we feel that Labour has failed the elderly. Although we agree with the Scottish National party on this, our means of addressing the problems of the elderly are different. Our aim in government was to achieve higher living standards for pensioners by maintaining the value of the state pension at the same time as encouraging greater take-up of occupational or private pensions.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2159E115P214C712912", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Martin, Paul", "ID": 2159, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Springburn" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Paul Martin", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Paul Martin (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 79.0, "ContributionID": 712912, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2159E115P214C712914", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Martin, Paul", "ID": 2159, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Springburn" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Paul Martin", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Paul Martin: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 83.0, "ContributionID": 712914, "EditedText": "I wonder whether the member will confirm that eye test charges were introduced during the years of Tory rule. Can he give me a yes or no answer—did his party introduce those charges?", "EditedTextHTML": "I wonder whether the member will confirm that eye test charges were introduced during the years of Tory rule. Can he give me a yes or no answer—did his party introduce those charges?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2105E44P74C712915", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harding, Mr Keith", "ID": 2105, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Harding", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Harding: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 85.0, "ContributionID": 712915, "EditedText": "What I will say to that is that Labour also stopped the Christmas bonus. If I may carry on, our policies led to an increase in the proportion of people who had an occupational pension: in 1979, the figure was 43 per cent; in 1997, it was 62 per cent. More than 5 million people took out personal pensions in that period. Those reforms mean that, unlike other European countries, we are not liable for a huge increase in public sector pensions. Those pensions are funded up front, whereas our European counterparts have a demographic time bomb on their hands. With an aging population, those countries will have to bankrupt themselves to pay for the provision, or else remove universality. I remind Alex Neil that it was the Conservative party's brave decision to cut the link with earnings that saved Britain from that fate, and that it is folly for the SNP to suggest that we return to such a system now.", "EditedTextHTML": "What I will say to that is that Labour also stopped the Christmas bonus.

If I may carry on, our policies led to an increase in the proportion of people who had an occupational pension: in 1979, the figure was 43 per cent; in 1997, it was 62 per cent. More than 5 million people took out personal pensions in that period.

Those reforms mean that, unlike other European countries, we are not liable for a huge increase in public sector pensions. Those pensions are funded up front, whereas our European counterparts have a demographic time bomb on their hands. With an aging population, those countries will have to bankrupt themselves to pay for the provision, or else remove universality.

I remind Alex Neil that it was the Conservative party's brave decision to cut the link with earnings that saved Britain from that fate, and that it is folly for the SNP to suggest that we return to such a system now.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2105E44P74C712917", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harding, Mr Keith", "ID": 2105, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Harding", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Harding: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 89.0, "ContributionID": 712917, "EditedText": "No, thank you.We believe that there are specific areas of policy for which this Parliament is responsible, where our policies would improve the quality of life for the elderly. One is the introduction of an integrated national concessionary fares system. At present, concessionary fares are applied in a very haphazard way. It is time that the Scottish Executive ministers stopped punishing the motorist and got some of their council colleagues to come together with the bus and rail companies to introduce an equitable system. Here in Edinburgh there are good concessions, and in Fife there are free fares. Where I come from, in Stirling, there are no rail concessions but there are some bus concessions; in Falkirk there are both. It is time that we had an integrated system for the whole of Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, thank you.

We believe that there are specific areas of policy for which this Parliament is responsible, where our policies would improve the quality of life for the elderly.

One is the introduction of an integrated national concessionary fares system. At present, concessionary fares are applied in a very haphazard way. It is time that the Scottish Executive ministers stopped punishing the motorist and got some of their council colleagues to come together with the bus and rail companies to introduce an equitable system. Here in Edinburgh there are good concessions, and in Fife there are free fares. Where I come from, in Stirling, there are no rail concessions but there are some bus concessions; in Falkirk there are both. It is time that we had an integrated system for the whole of Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C712918", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bruce Crawford (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 91.0, "ContributionID": 712918, "EditedText": "I would like to ask a straightforward question. Can Mr Harding tell me of one attempt, during the 18 years of Conservative rule, to bring in a concessionary fares scheme that was uniform across Scotland?", "EditedTextHTML": "I would like to ask a straightforward question. Can Mr Harding tell me of one attempt, during the 18 years of Conservative rule, to bring in a concessionary fares scheme that was uniform across Scotland?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2105E44P74C712919", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harding, Mr Keith", "ID": 2105, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Harding", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Harding: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 93.0, "ContributionID": 712919, "EditedText": "I agree with the point of Mr Crawford's question. However, my point is that policies have since developed. In local government, Labour has failed the council tenant. Much of Scotland's council housing stock is crumbling and new investment is desperately needed. The standard of housing for everyone in Scotland would be improved by transferring control of housing from councils to local communities, which would give tenants a real choice of landlords and a real say in the management of their homes. Furthermore, such a measure would bring in private sector investment to assist necessary repair and renovation projects. Local housing providers would have to adapt houses specifically for the elderly and disabled. Grants would be given on the condition that any new development provided a minimum of 5 per cent of sheltered housing, which would ensure that elderly and disabled people were included in mainstream housing, creating real communities. To match our tough policies on zero tolerance of crime, we must ensure that once an offender is caught, the sentence properly matches the crime. Only by reducing crime—as the Conservatives did in Government, through measures such as honesty in sentencing—will we create a decent, civilised society. Our goal is a society in which everyone, including the elderly, can go about their everyday lives without fear and can feel secure in their homes. The Scottish Executive will never achieve that with its current policies of falling police numbers, prison closures, and keeping more criminals on the street. Although the SNP is right to point out that the Executive's concern for the elderly is no more than skin deep, its solutions are wrong. Those solutions are unaffordable, unnecessary for the majority and would not provide the same long-term benefit as encouraging individuals who work hard and save hard for the future. Many pensioners in Scotland are reasonably well-off because of reforms implemented during the years of Conservative Government. Such reforms allowed Scots to save and invest in their own future and provided them with much better pensions than the state could ever afford. We can increase elderly people's incomes in the long run only by targeting state help on those who remain in real need and by assisting others to continue to make provision for their future. Labour has attacked that principle by breaking such election promises. Our amendment sets out practical ways of improving the quality of life of older people in Scotland. Those measures, combined with an end to Labour's scandalous tax on people's future welfare, would bring great benefit to the people of Scotland. I commend them to the chamber. I move amendment S1M-327.2, to leave out from \"recognises\" to end and insert: \"regards care and concern for Scotland's elderly as a major priority; recognises that the measures necessary to achieve this must include a reversal of Her Majesty's Government's decision to tax pension funds, which will cut retirement incomes, healthcare provision without fear of discrimination on the grounds of age and the introduction of an integrated concessionary fares system enabling the elderly to maintain contact with friends and family on an affordable basis; further recognises that the transfer of council housing stock would enable better housing provision to be made for the elderly, particularly those in need of sheltered accommodation, and that the rising crime rate has resulted in an increased number of elderly people, particularly those living alone, being afraid for their personal safety and the security of their homes, and undertakes to take the appropriate steps to provide reassurance and improve the quality of life for our elderly population.\"", "EditedTextHTML": "I agree with the point of Mr Crawford's question. However, my point is that policies have since developed.

In local government, Labour has failed the council tenant. Much of Scotland's council housing stock is crumbling and new investment is desperately needed. The standard of housing for everyone in Scotland would be improved by transferring control of housing from councils to local communities, which would give tenants a real choice of landlords and a real say in the management of their homes. Furthermore, such a measure would bring in private sector investment to assist necessary repair and renovation projects.

Local housing providers would have to adapt houses specifically for the elderly and disabled. Grants would be given on the condition that any new development provided a minimum of 5 per cent of sheltered housing, which would ensure that elderly and disabled people were included in mainstream housing, creating real communities.

To match our tough policies on zero tolerance of crime, we must ensure that once an offender is caught, the sentence properly matches the crime. Only by reducing crime—as the Conservatives did in Government, through measures such as honesty in sentencing—will we create a decent, civilised society. Our goal is a society in which everyone, including the elderly, can go about their everyday lives without fear and can feel secure in their homes. The Scottish Executive will never achieve that with its current policies of falling police numbers, prison closures, and keeping more criminals on the street.

Although the SNP is right to point out that the Executive's concern for the elderly is no more than skin deep, its solutions are wrong. Those solutions are unaffordable, unnecessary for the majority and would not provide the same long-term benefit as encouraging individuals who work hard and save hard for the future.

Many pensioners in Scotland are reasonably well-off because of reforms implemented during the years of Conservative Government. Such

reforms allowed Scots to save and invest in their own future and provided them with much better pensions than the state could ever afford. We can increase elderly people's incomes in the long run only by targeting state help on those who remain in real need and by assisting others to continue to make provision for their future. Labour has attacked that principle by breaking such election promises.

Our amendment sets out practical ways of improving the quality of life of older people in Scotland. Those measures, combined with an end to Labour's scandalous tax on people's future welfare, would bring great benefit to the people of Scotland. I commend them to the chamber.

I move amendment S1M-327.2, to leave out from \"recognises\" to end and insert:

\"regards care and concern for Scotland's elderly as a major priority; recognises that the measures necessary to achieve this must include a reversal of Her Majesty's Government's decision to tax pension funds, which will cut retirement incomes, healthcare provision without fear of discrimination on the grounds of age and the introduction of an integrated concessionary fares system enabling the elderly to maintain contact with friends and family on an affordable basis; further recognises that the transfer of council housing stock would enable better housing provision to be made for the elderly, particularly those in need of sheltered accommodation, and that the rising crime rate has resulted in an increased number of elderly people, particularly those living alone, being afraid for their personal safety and the security of their homes, and undertakes to take the appropriate steps to provide reassurance and improve the quality of life for our elderly population.\"

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2185E120P328C712921", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Brown, Robert", "ID": 2185, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robert Brown", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robert Brown (Glasgow) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 98.0, "ContributionID": 712921, "EditedText": "I also welcome the older people in the visitors gallery. One of the advantages of a Scottish Parliament in Edinburgh is that our citizens can come and be involved in debates on such important issues. Furthermore, I sympathise with the people who stood out in the biting weather this morning to hand out the leaflets that members received as we came in. This debate on older people is very worth while and the SNP should be congratulated on its pertinent choice of subject, particularly as winter weather sets in and Christmas approaches. However, I was rather struck by the oddity of an SNP motion calling for a joint action plan between the UK Government and the Scottish Executive at the same time that the party is castigating left, right and centre the very idea of joint consultation between the two Governments. I want to take this opportunity on behalf of the Liberal Democrats to welcome proposals for better liaison between London and Edinburgh which help to harness the resources available at UK level to the best interests of Scotland. That is not a concept that finds favour with the Opposition in this chamber.", "EditedTextHTML": "I also welcome the older people in the visitors gallery. One of the advantages of a Scottish Parliament in Edinburgh is that our citizens can come and be involved in debates on such important issues. Furthermore, I sympathise with the people who stood out in the biting weather this morning to hand out the leaflets that members received as we came in.

This debate on older people is very worth while and the SNP should be congratulated on its pertinent choice of subject, particularly as winter weather sets in and Christmas approaches. However, I was rather struck by the oddity of an SNP motion calling for a joint action plan between the UK Government and the Scottish Executive at the same time that the party is castigating left, right and centre the very idea of joint consultation between the two Governments. I want to take this opportunity on behalf of the Liberal Democrats to welcome proposals for better liaison between London and Edinburgh which help to harness the resources available at UK level to the best interests of Scotland. That is not a concept that finds favour with the Opposition in this chamber.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C712922", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 100.0, "ContributionID": 712922, "EditedText": "There is no contradiction. We want action, not words or committees. The point about committees is that they take minutes and waste years. Our pensioners do not have years to waste.", "EditedTextHTML": "There is no contradiction. We want action, not words or committees. The point about committees is that they take minutes and waste years. Our pensioners do not have years to waste.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1865E219P509C712924", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "White, Sandra", "ID": 1865, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sandra White", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Sandra White (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 104.0, "ContributionID": 712924, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2185E120P328C712925", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Brown, Robert", "ID": 2185, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robert Brown", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robert Brown: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 106.0, "ContributionID": 712925, "EditedText": "No, thank you.The Liberal Democrat theme, people count, to which I referred in the social inclusion debate is germane today also. Older people have much to give to our society. Many voluntary groups would fold without them. The service and experience that they bring is of enormous value to our communities and is vital in enhancing the sense of value and self-worth of individual volunteers. I remember my grandfather, aged 90, helping out at social events, moving chairs or pouring tea, at the pensioners club in his vicinity. He used to say, \"The old people really enjoyed themselves today,\" quite unconscious of the fact that most of the old people to whom he referred were younger than him. He did not identify himself as an older person, which is true of many of the people that I and other members come across in our local communities. People find it satisfying to do their bit to help. We must emphasise that side of the coin. Some older people need a degree of help and support. Older people are more likely to need health care; a certain proportion will need to be looked after either by carers or in a home; there are issues to do with transport, sporting activity and social life and the problems of bereavement and loneliness. The objectives of ensuring reasonable comfort in the home and an adequate diet must be met. Government policy must aim to enhance lifestyle, support individual independence and increase personal choice. Another issue is the need for access to advice and information. Almost 300,000 people aged 60 or over rely on council tax benefit. It is high time that we were able to move towards a proper national network of funded, independent advice centres so that people in all parts of the country can be helped by citizens advice bureaux or similar agencies. Some people despair at the demographic trends identified by earlier speakers—more older people, more people on pensions, more people needing care, more people in residential homes and more calls being made on the health service. However, the situation is nothing new. In 1911, when the Liberal Government was preparing its national insurance act, civil servants went on about the potential increase in the number of old people. The Government had introduced the first old-age pensions in 1908 at the rate of 5 shillings. Dire prognostications were made about national bankruptcy, which, of course, did not happen. There is an astonishing reluctance on the part of the Labour Government at Westminster to take significant action on crucial social issues. In the pre-budget statement, a great flourish was made of the 75p pension increase, which Alex Neil touched on. The truth is, however, that pensioners under Labour will be worse off in real terms than they were last year. The 75p pension increase will go little way towards enabling pensioners to pay the increased council tax and water bills that will result from decisions and assumptions in the comprehensive spending review that was carried out by the Chancellor of the Exchequer at UK level. Pensioners in every Scottish region will be worse off. In Highland, they will be worse off by £42.63; in Perth, by £41.27; in City of Glasgow by £11.15; and in South Lanarkshire by £4.68. Only in the Scottish Borders, where the projected increase in water bills is less, will pensioners benefit—to the tune of 67p year. I can assume only that that largesse is due to the higher volume of rainfall in the Borders region. Thirty-one per cent of Scottish pensioners live in poverty. Against that background, the chancellor's continued amassing of an election war chest is nothing short of an outrage. A fair deal for pensioners would be right, it would be socially just and it would be the Liberal Democrat alternative to the tax-cutting agenda of central Government at Westminster under new Labour. I understand that there will be an announcement today on the response to the Sutherland report on long-term care. If so, it will not be before time. At national level, the air of expectation that greeted the report has faded to an irritated frustration at the lack of progress on its implementation. I therefore welcome the minister's earlier comments about the proposed reaction of the Scottish Executive to the Sutherland commission, in so far as its recommendations fall within our remit. We should not underestimate public opinion on the issue. More than 30,000 people live in residential or nursing homes; 61,000 people suffer from dementia; more than 500,000 adults provide some level of care for older people. Many more fear the prospect of ending their days in poverty and hardship, a burden to their children, the savings that they hoped to pass on to their families taken by the state. There is a significant feeling of outrage at that prospect in the hearts of many people who have worked all their lives. I respectfully suggest to the SNP that it might be better off backing the Liberal Democrats and arguing the case for dealing with pensioner poverty in this Parliament, which has the power and resources to tackle it, rather than yelling from a distance, over the border, on the matter.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, thank you.

The Liberal Democrat theme, people count, to which I referred in the social inclusion debate is germane today also. Older people have much to give to our society. Many voluntary groups would fold without them. The service and experience that they bring is of enormous value to our communities and is vital in enhancing the sense of value and self-worth of individual volunteers.

I remember my grandfather, aged 90, helping out at social events, moving chairs or pouring tea, at the pensioners club in his vicinity. He used to say, \"The old people really enjoyed themselves today,\" quite unconscious of the fact that most of the old people to whom he referred were younger than him. He did not identify himself as an older person, which is true of many of the people that I and other members come across in our local communities. People find it satisfying to do their bit to help. We must emphasise that side of the coin.

Some older people need a degree of help and support. Older people are more likely to need health care; a certain proportion will need to be looked after either by carers or in a home; there are issues to do with transport, sporting activity and social life and the problems of bereavement and loneliness. The objectives of ensuring reasonable comfort in the home and an adequate diet must be met. Government policy must aim to

enhance lifestyle, support individual independence and increase personal choice.

Another issue is the need for access to advice and information. Almost 300,000 people aged 60 or over rely on council tax benefit. It is high time that we were able to move towards a proper national network of funded, independent advice centres so that people in all parts of the country can be helped by citizens advice bureaux or similar agencies.

Some people despair at the demographic trends identified by earlier speakers—more older people, more people on pensions, more people needing care, more people in residential homes and more calls being made on the health service. However, the situation is nothing new. In 1911, when the Liberal Government was preparing its national insurance act, civil servants went on about the potential increase in the number of old people. The Government had introduced the first old-age pensions in 1908 at the rate of 5 shillings. Dire prognostications were made about national bankruptcy, which, of course, did not happen.

There is an astonishing reluctance on the part of the Labour Government at Westminster to take significant action on crucial social issues. In the pre-budget statement, a great flourish was made of the 75p pension increase, which Alex Neil touched on. The truth is, however, that pensioners under Labour will be worse off in real terms than they were last year. The 75p pension increase will go little way towards enabling pensioners to pay the increased council tax and water bills that will result from decisions and assumptions in the comprehensive spending review that was carried out by the Chancellor of the Exchequer at UK level.

Pensioners in every Scottish region will be worse off. In Highland, they will be worse off by £42.63; in Perth, by £41.27; in City of Glasgow by £11.15; and in South Lanarkshire by £4.68. Only in the Scottish Borders, where the projected increase in water bills is less, will pensioners benefit—to the tune of 67p year. I can assume only that that largesse is due to the higher volume of rainfall in the Borders region.

Thirty-one per cent of Scottish pensioners live in poverty. Against that background, the chancellor's continued amassing of an election war chest is nothing short of an outrage. A fair deal for pensioners would be right, it would be socially just and it would be the Liberal Democrat alternative to the tax-cutting agenda of central Government at Westminster under new Labour.

I understand that there will be an announcement today on the response to the Sutherland report on long-term care. If so, it will not be before time. At national level, the air of expectation that greeted the report has faded to an irritated frustration at the lack of progress on its implementation. I therefore welcome the minister's earlier comments about the proposed reaction of the Scottish Executive to the Sutherland commission, in so far as its recommendations fall within our remit.

We should not underestimate public opinion on the issue. More than 30,000 people live in residential or nursing homes; 61,000 people suffer from dementia; more than 500,000 adults provide some level of care for older people. Many more fear the prospect of ending their days in poverty and hardship, a burden to their children, the savings that they hoped to pass on to their families taken by the state. There is a significant feeling of outrage at that prospect in the hearts of many people who have worked all their lives.

I respectfully suggest to the SNP that it might be better off backing the Liberal Democrats and arguing the case for dealing with pensioner poverty in this Parliament, which has the power and resources to tackle it, rather than yelling from a distance, over the border, on the matter.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1821E295P538C712926", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Mrs Margaret", "ID": 1821, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Moray" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Margaret Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 108.0, "ContributionID": 712926, "EditedText": "I have worked on this issue in the Westminster Parliament and still do so. Why have the Liberal Democrats not been much more supportive of arguments propounded by the SNP on issues such as the cold climate allowance for pensioners in Scotland?", "EditedTextHTML": "I have worked on this issue in the Westminster Parliament and still do so. Why have the Liberal Democrats not been much more supportive of arguments propounded by the SNP on issues such as the cold climate allowance for pensioners in Scotland?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2185E120P328C712929", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Brown, Robert", "ID": 2185, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robert Brown", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robert Brown: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 114.0, "ContributionID": 712929, "EditedText": "No thank you, I think I have given way sufficiently for the moment. What impressed me about the initiative was the technical sophistication of what was on offer. It was a far cry from the days when we used to put wee bits of latex around doors and Sellotape up the letterbox to prevent draughts. The programme for Government commits us to improving 100,000 houses suffering from dampness and condensation by 2003, targeted on people with low incomes and on the elderly, as part of the healthy homes initiative. That is an ambitious target, but would not be ambitious enough were there the resources to do more. I hope that, during the course of this Parliament, there will be further measures beyond what the Government has managed to achieve so far to tackle the scourge of fuel poverty, to deal with unnecessary associated deaths and ill health from hypothermia and finally to eliminate fuel poverty in this country.", "EditedTextHTML": "No thank you, I think I have given way sufficiently for the moment.

What impressed me about the initiative was the technical sophistication of what was on offer. It was a far cry from the days when we used to put wee bits of latex around doors and Sellotape up the letterbox to prevent draughts. The programme for Government commits us to improving 100,000 houses suffering from dampness and condensation by 2003, targeted on people with low incomes and on the elderly, as part of the healthy homes initiative. That is an ambitious target, but would not be ambitious enough were there the resources to do more.

I hope that, during the course of this Parliament, there will be further measures beyond what the Government has managed to achieve so far to tackle the scourge of fuel poverty, to deal with unnecessary associated deaths and ill health from hypothermia and finally to eliminate fuel poverty in this country.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C712932", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Patricia Ferguson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 120.0, "ContributionID": 712932, "EditedText": "Before we move into open debate, I advise members that there will be a four-minute time limit on speeches.", "EditedTextHTML": "Before we move into open debate, I advise members that there will be a four-minute time limit on speeches.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1811E172P455C712933", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ullrich, Kay", "ID": 1811, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kay Ullrich", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Kay Ullrich (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 123.0, "ContributionID": 712933, "EditedText": "As it appears that we are having to testify to our ages this morning, I am very much afraid that I have to declare an interest when it comes to being in the over-50 age group. We heard Iain Gray speak to the Executive amendment. What a rosy picture he painted. It seems that it is great—or going to be great—in new Labour's brave new world. I have listened to the spin, but for the next few minutes I will speak about the realities, particularly the reality of access to the health service and to care in the community for those over pensionable age in Scotland today. From the outset, it is important to recognise that today's elderly population are those same people who were starting their working lives when the national health service was introduced. Many of them were returning to work and establishing families after the long years of the second world war. They were delighted to enter into a contract with the then Labour Government, which told them that, if they worked hard and put their bit into the public kitty, they would be looked after when their working lives were over. What have today's pensioners received in return for keeping their part of the contract? A health service that discriminates on the grounds of age and a community care system that is driven by the lack of resources, rather than services that meet the needs of the growing elderly population. I want to examine the evidence that age is used as a discriminatory factor in the health service. The Executive claims that the treatment and prevention of cancer is a No 1 priority—but not, it seems, if one is over 65 years of age. As has been said already, 63 per cent of all deaths from breast cancer occur in women aged 65 or over; yet women aged over 65 are not routinely invited for breast cancer screening. The same is true of lung cancer. Although more than half of all patients with inoperable lung cancer are over 65, palliative chemotherapy to relieve the symptoms is reserved entirely for younger age groups. Coronary heart disease is another stated priorityarea for the Executive, but not, I am afraid, if one is of a certain age. For example, there is a national policy to refuse heart transplants to people aged over 60, and we know for a fact that 20 per cent of coronary care units operate age-related admissions policies, while 40 per cent attach age restrictions on clot-busting drug therapy after heart attacks. As with those who are diagnosed with cancer, 66 per cent of all heart attack patients are over the age of 65. While I could go on and on, I ask the minister to address the rationing of health care to the elderly population when he sums up. I have spoken on numerous occasions in this chamber about the need to implement the recommendations of the Sutherland report. Quite frankly, unless steps—of which there were hopeful signs today—are taken soon by this Executive to address the current crisis in community care, the system will go into meltdown, believe you me. This Parliament has the power to ensure that the value of a family home and, indeed, of a person's savings, can be disregarded for up to 12 months after admission to a residential care setting.", "EditedTextHTML": "As it appears that we are having to testify to our ages this morning, I am very much afraid that I have to declare an interest when it comes to being in the over-50 age group.

We heard Iain Gray speak to the Executive amendment. What a rosy picture he painted. It seems that it is great—or going to be great—in new Labour's brave new world. I have listened to the spin, but for the next few minutes I will speak about the realities, particularly the reality of access to the health service and to care in the community for those over pensionable age in Scotland today.

From the outset, it is important to recognise that today's elderly population are those same people who were starting their working lives when the national health service was introduced. Many of them were returning to work and establishing families after the long years of the second world war. They were delighted to enter into a contract with the then Labour Government, which told them that, if they worked hard and put their bit into the public kitty, they would be looked after when their working lives were over. What have today's pensioners received in return for keeping their part of the contract? A health service that discriminates on the grounds of age and a community care system that is driven by the lack of resources, rather than services that meet the needs of the growing elderly population.

I want to examine the evidence that age is used as a discriminatory factor in the health service. The Executive claims that the treatment and prevention of cancer is a No 1 priority—but not, it seems, if one is over 65 years of age. As has been said already, 63 per cent of all deaths from breast cancer occur in women aged 65 or over; yet women aged over 65 are not routinely invited for breast cancer screening. The same is true of lung cancer. Although more than half of all patients with inoperable lung cancer are over 65, palliative chemotherapy to relieve the symptoms is reserved entirely for younger age groups.

Coronary heart disease is another stated priority

area for the Executive, but not, I am afraid, if one is of a certain age. For example, there is a national policy to refuse heart transplants to people aged over 60, and we know for a fact that 20 per cent of coronary care units operate age-related admissions policies, while 40 per cent attach age restrictions on clot-busting drug therapy after heart attacks. As with those who are diagnosed with cancer, 66 per cent of all heart attack patients are over the age of 65. While I could go on and on, I ask the minister to address the rationing of health care to the elderly population when he sums up.

I have spoken on numerous occasions in this chamber about the need to implement the recommendations of the Sutherland report. Quite frankly, unless steps—of which there were hopeful signs today—are taken soon by this Executive to address the current crisis in community care, the system will go into meltdown, believe you me.

This Parliament has the power to ensure that the value of a family home and, indeed, of a person's savings, can be disregarded for up to 12 months after admission to a residential care setting.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1811E172P455C712935", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ullrich, Kay", "ID": 1811, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kay Ullrich", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Kay Ullrich: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 127.0, "ContributionID": 712935, "EditedText": "As I am aware of the time, I will cut to the chase. We talk about person-centred health and community care. Try telling that to one of the 2,000 elderly people who, while lying in acute hospital beds, await funding for residential or nursing care, or to the elderly people who have their home help hours cut and charges raised because of cutbacks in local authority funding.", "EditedTextHTML": "As I am aware of the time, I will cut to the chase. We talk about person-centred health and community care. Try telling that to one of the 2,000 elderly people who, while lying in acute hospital beds, await funding for residential or nursing care, or to the elderly people who have their home help hours cut and charges raised because of cutbacks in local authority funding.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C712936", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 129.0, "ContributionID": 712936, "EditedText": "Come to a close, please.", "EditedTextHTML": "Come to a close, please.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1811E172P455C712937", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ullrich, Kay", "ID": 1811, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kay Ullrich", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Kay Ullrich: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 131.0, "ContributionID": 712937, "EditedText": "In spite of the soothing words and platitudes of its amendment, this Executive and its pals at Westminster stand accused of a breach of faith with an entire generation. I urge members to support the motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "In spite of the soothing words and platitudes of its amendment, this Executive and its pals at Westminster stand accused of a breach of faith with an entire generation.

I urge members to support the motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2123E103P242C712938", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Chisholm, Malcolm", "ID": 2123, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh North and Leith" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Malcolm Chisholm", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 134.0, "ContributionID": 712938, "EditedText": "The background to all debates about pensioner poverty, or any kind of poverty, must be the stark fact that between 1979 and 1997 the proportion of people in Scotland who were living on less than 50 per cent of the mean GB income— which is the official definition of poverty—rose from 10 per cent to 26 per cent. That problem could never be addressed overnight. All members should welcome the fact that, last week, the Executive made an undertaking to reduce that figure over the next few years. That was a significant development. I agree with Alex Neil that pensioner groups want a restoration of the link between pensions and earnings. What Alex Neil did not say is that pensioner groups and individual pensioners, whom we all meet every day in our constituencies, also welcome some of the changes that the Government has made. Such changes include the £100 fuel allowance; the fact that 300,000 Scottish pensioners will receive a free television licence next year; the extra £300 million for community care; the free eye tests; and, for the younger range of older people—and here, like Kay Ullrich, I must declare an interest—the new deal for the over-50s.", "EditedTextHTML": "The background to all debates about pensioner poverty, or any kind of poverty, must be the stark fact that between 1979 and 1997 the proportion of people in Scotland who were living on less than 50 per cent of the mean GB income— which is the official definition of poverty—rose from 10 per cent to 26 per cent. That problem could never be addressed overnight. All members should welcome the fact that, last week, the Executive made an undertaking to reduce that figure over the next few years. That was a significant development.

I agree with Alex Neil that pensioner groups want a restoration of the link between pensions and earnings. What Alex Neil did not say is that pensioner groups and individual pensioners, whom we all meet every day in our constituencies, also welcome some of the changes that the Government has made. Such changes include the £100 fuel allowance; the fact that 300,000 Scottish pensioners will receive a free television licence next year; the extra £300 million for community care; the free eye tests; and, for the younger range of older people—and here, like Kay Ullrich, I must declare an interest—the new deal for the over-50s.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1762E216P508C712946", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Elder, Dorothy-Grace", "ID": 1762, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 153.0, "ContributionID": 712946, "EditedText": "Will the member take an intervention?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member take an intervention?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1986E53P206C712984", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeil, Duncan", "ID": 1986, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Greenock and Inverclyde" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan McNeil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McNeil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 241.0, "ContributionID": 712984, "EditedText": "No, thank you.There has been no mention of the campaign against fuel poverty. The pensioners who campaigned against it should be given credit. Interruption.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, thank you.

There has been no mention of the campaign against fuel poverty. The pensioners who campaigned against it should be given credit. [Interruption.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2090E83P266C712947", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAllion, Mr John", "ID": 2090, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dundee East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John McAllion", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McAllion: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 155.0, "ContributionID": 712947, "EditedText": "I have not got time. If I had more than four minutes, I would give way. The question is, what do we do about the factsto which I have referred? The Parliament is united in saying that a serious problem confronts elderly people in our society. I am not convinced that the answer is for the Parliament to debate whether there should be more or fewer constitutional changes. We already know that pensioner poverty has persisted into a devolved Scotland inside the UK and within the European Union. I am not convinced that moving to an independent Scotland outside the UK but inside the European Union— and, more significant, inside the single currency— would make any great difference to pensioner poverty in this country. At heart, I believe that the problem is not down to constitutional structures; what really matters is the political will of the people who are elected to the different Assemblies in our country and what we decide. It is wrong for the Opposition in this Parliament to deride the changes that have been introduced by the Labour Government since 1997. Many pensioners across Scotland and Britain have welcomed those changes, which have made a big difference. A winter fuel payment of £100 makes a difference to all pensioners in Scotland, as does the reduction of VAT on fuel. Malcolm Chisholm mentioned the warm homes deal and complained about the fact that it was targeted. One could complain that it is not targeted enough, because the maximum grant that is available under the warm homes deal in Scotland is £500. In England and Wales, a new system has been introduced, targeted on the over-60s, who are vulnerable. Under the home energy efficiency scheme plus, from next April pensioners can get £1,800 to install a new central heating system in their homes. People in Scotland will not be able to do that. Why does not this Parliament debate that issue? I understand that Energy Action Scotland is asking for a review of the warm homes deal. There should be such a review, to ensure that the money that is available is targeted at the right places. I thought that I had just started, but I notice that I have almost finished. It is always the same when I get to my feet—there is never enough time. Let us forget our party political differences, unite around the issues that matter to old people and try to reach a consensus in this Parliament. Most Labour members agree that pensions should be linked to earnings rather than to inflation. That was always our position and it remains our position. Let us find a way of achieving that goal, instead of calling one another names because our party leaderships say something different. Applause.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have not got time. If I had more than four minutes, I would give way.

The question is, what do we do about the facts

to which I have referred? The Parliament is united in saying that a serious problem confronts elderly people in our society. I am not convinced that the answer is for the Parliament to debate whether there should be more or fewer constitutional changes. We already know that pensioner poverty has persisted into a devolved Scotland inside the UK and within the European Union. I am not convinced that moving to an independent Scotland outside the UK but inside the European Union— and, more significant, inside the single currency— would make any great difference to pensioner poverty in this country. At heart, I believe that the problem is not down to constitutional structures; what really matters is the political will of the people who are elected to the different Assemblies in our country and what we decide.

It is wrong for the Opposition in this Parliament to deride the changes that have been introduced by the Labour Government since 1997. Many pensioners across Scotland and Britain have welcomed those changes, which have made a big difference. A winter fuel payment of £100 makes a difference to all pensioners in Scotland, as does the reduction of VAT on fuel.

Malcolm Chisholm mentioned the warm homes deal and complained about the fact that it was targeted. One could complain that it is not targeted enough, because the maximum grant that is available under the warm homes deal in Scotland is £500. In England and Wales, a new system has been introduced, targeted on the over-60s, who are vulnerable. Under the home energy efficiency scheme plus, from next April pensioners can get £1,800 to install a new central heating system in their homes. People in Scotland will not be able to do that. Why does not this Parliament debate that issue? I understand that Energy Action Scotland is asking for a review of the warm homes deal. There should be such a review, to ensure that the money that is available is targeted at the right places.

I thought that I had just started, but I notice that I have almost finished. It is always the same when I get to my feet—there is never enough time. Let us forget our party political differences, unite around the issues that matter to old people and try to reach a consensus in this Parliament. Most Labour members agree that pensions should be linked to earnings rather than to inflation. That was always our position and it remains our position. Let us find a way of achieving that goal, instead of calling one another names because our party leaderships say something different. [Applause.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C712948", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 157.0, "ContributionID": 712948, "EditedText": "I remind spectators in the public gallery that they must be silent and may not participate in applause.", "EditedTextHTML": "I remind spectators in the public gallery that they must be silent and may not participate in applause.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1970E66P288C712952", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNulty, Des", "ID": 1970, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Clydebank and Milngavie" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Des McNulty", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Des McNulty (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 167.0, "ContributionID": 712952, "EditedText": "I am pleased that the SNP is making such extensive use of the excellent report by the Scottish Poverty Information Unit. I am sure that my former colleagues at Glasgow Caledonian University will be pleased to have their work recognised. That report and the responses from pensioners last week make it clear that the position of older people should be a priority for this Parliament and Executive. Scottish pensioners deserve better than the empty rhetoric that has been served up by SNP members. Over the past few weeks, every SNP front bencher has promised more money for every possible cause. Three weeks ago, Kenny MacAskill backed a comprehensive road-building package for Scotland with an estimated price tag of £900 million. When Nicola Sturgeon's commitments to education, and the commitments to health, local government and the voluntary sector are considered as well, the SNP's strategy becomes clear: blank cheques and empty promises. The SNP refuses to take seriously the choice of priorities that confronts every Government. At least David McLetchie made it clear last week that he would have spent the money that the Executive, in establishing the coalition, set aside for schools, health and anti-poverty measures, on prisons, more police officers and the removal of tuition fees for better-off students. At least one can have a meaningful debate with the Tories. They recognise that there are choices to be made, but with the SNP all we get is a Dutch auction with funny money to cover the costs. Many pensioners, because of their financial situation, appreciate the bankruptcy of that approach. They make choices themselves and they know that Government has to do the same. In that context, and not in the unreal world in which the SNP lives, the commitment of the UK Government and the Scottish Executive to tackling pensioner poverty as one of three joint priority tasks is welcome. As Alex Neil pointed out in his speech, Labour has a proud record on pensions. Successive Labour Governments have consistently done more for pensioners than anybody else has, and this Government has continued that tradition. For the first time, a minimum income guarantee has been introduced, giving a minimum weekly income of £78 to a single pensioner and nearly £122 to a couple. Winter fuel payments have increased fivefold, and £10.5 million has been made available under the warm deal.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am pleased that the SNP is making such extensive use of the excellent report by the Scottish Poverty Information Unit. I am sure that my former colleagues at Glasgow Caledonian University will be pleased to have their work recognised. That report and the responses from pensioners last week make it clear that the position of older people should be a priority for this Parliament and Executive.

Scottish pensioners deserve better than the empty rhetoric that has been served up by SNP members. Over the past few weeks, every SNP front bencher has promised more money for every possible cause. Three weeks ago, Kenny MacAskill backed a comprehensive road-building package for Scotland with an estimated price tag of £900 million. When Nicola Sturgeon's commitments to education, and the commitments to health, local government and the voluntary sector are considered as well, the SNP's strategy becomes clear: blank cheques and empty promises. The SNP refuses to take seriously the choice of priorities that confronts every Government.

At least David McLetchie made it clear last week that he would have spent the money that the Executive, in establishing the coalition, set aside for schools, health and anti-poverty measures, on prisons, more police officers and the removal of tuition fees for better-off students. At least one can have a meaningful debate with the Tories. They recognise that there are choices to be made, but with the SNP all we get is a Dutch auction with funny money to cover the costs.

Many pensioners, because of their financial situation, appreciate the bankruptcy of that approach. They make choices themselves and they know that Government has to do the same. In that context, and not in the unreal world in which the SNP lives, the commitment of the UK Government and the Scottish Executive to tackling pensioner poverty as one of three joint priority tasks is welcome.

As Alex Neil pointed out in his speech, Labour has a proud record on pensions. Successive Labour Governments have consistently done more for pensioners than anybody else has, and this Government has continued that tradition. For the first time, a minimum income guarantee has been introduced, giving a minimum weekly income of £78 to a single pensioner and nearly £122 to a couple. Winter fuel payments have increased fivefold, and £10.5 million has been made available under the warm deal.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1762E216P508C712955", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Elder, Dorothy-Grace", "ID": 1762, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 173.0, "ContributionID": 712955, "EditedText": "Will Mr McNulty give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr McNulty give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1970E66P288C712956", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNulty, Des", "ID": 1970, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Clydebank and Milngavie" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Des McNulty", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Des McNulty: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 175.0, "ContributionID": 712956, "EditedText": "No, I will not.With the needs of pensioners in mind, Labour will introduce measures to improve health care, transportation and a host of other services. The Government is making a positive intervention on behalf of pensioners. That is significant and must not be swept away. I agree with Tommy Sheridan that pensioners deserve a dignified life. As he said, pensioners require more money from society—I think that there is consensus on that. However, money is not the only thing that we must deliver to pensioners. Our society must incorporate pensioners more; they deserve greater respect and we must involve them in the whole thrust of community life in Scotland. Pensioners already make a contribution in many ways, and there are many ways in which we can extend their contribution by empowering them and giving them opportunities to participate more fully. That should be the focus of the joint action committees; I look forward to reading their reports in due course.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I will not.

With the needs of pensioners in mind, Labour will introduce measures to improve health care, transportation and a host of other services. The Government is making a positive intervention on behalf of pensioners. That is significant and must not be swept away.

I agree with Tommy Sheridan that pensioners deserve a dignified life. As he said, pensioners require more money from society—I think that there is consensus on that. However, money is not the only thing that we must deliver to pensioners. Our society must incorporate pensioners more; they deserve greater respect and we must involve them in the whole thrust of community life in Scotland. Pensioners already make a contribution in many ways, and there are many ways in which we can extend their contribution by empowering them and giving them opportunities to participate more fully. That should be the focus of the joint

action committees; I look forward to reading their reports in due course.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1865E219P509C712981", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "White, Sandra", "ID": 1865, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sandra White", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms White: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 235.0, "ContributionID": 712981, "EditedText": "For goodness' sake.", "EditedTextHTML": "For goodness' sake.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1986E53P206C712982", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeil, Duncan", "ID": 1986, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Greenock and Inverclyde" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan McNeil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McNeil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 237.0, "ContributionID": 712982, "EditedText": "That is the truth. We must make the distinction. I want pensioners on the margins to benefit from the Parliament's work. To suggest that we do not care about the lives of our pensioners, given Labour Governments' long record of commitment to pensioners over the years, is complete and utter nonsense. We are delivering and will continue to deliver across the board for our pensioners. We deliver warm homes while the Opposition delivers warm words. We offer a stable economy, low inflation and a growing income; the Opposition offers boom and bust and increased taxes for pensioners. We offer safer communities; the Opposition opposes our measures to tackle crime. The Opposition's description of the lives of pensioners is a patronising insult to pensioners who have campaigned for years for some of the things that we have delivered. There has been no mention today of the work of those campaigners or of the issues on which they have won. There has been no recognition of the minimum income guarantee for pensioners to tackle pensioner poverty.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is the truth. We must make the distinction. I want pensioners on the margins to benefit from the Parliament's work. To suggest that we do not care about the lives of our pensioners, given Labour Governments' long record of commitment to pensioners over the years, is complete and utter nonsense. We are delivering and will continue to deliver across the board for our pensioners. We deliver warm homes while the Opposition delivers warm words. We offer a stable economy, low inflation and a growing income; the Opposition offers boom and bust and increased taxes for pensioners. We offer safer communities; the Opposition opposes our measures to tackle crime.

The Opposition's description of the lives of pensioners is a patronising insult to pensioners who have campaigned for years for some of the things that we have delivered. There has been no mention today of the work of those campaigners or of the issues on which they have won. There has been no recognition of the minimum income guarantee for pensioners to tackle pensioner poverty.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2112E192P495C712960", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacAskill, Kenny", "ID": 2112, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenny MacAskill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Kenny MacAskill (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 185.0, "ContributionID": 712960, "EditedText": "I wish to deal with the transport aspect of the debate. I am conscious of the time limitation and the breadth of the subject. I will make some general comments, but my fundamental aim is to call for a national concessionary fare scheme for buses. The transport problems that face the elderly are affordability, availability and accessibility. The lamentable pension entitlement after a lifetime's work has been dealt with by my colleagues already; the pension—or the lack of it—affects the mobility of the elderly. Those who are limited to a state pension are curfewed by cost. The average pensioner who is dependent on a state pension spends, on average, 6 per cent of his income on travel. That is an expenditure of £5 per week. Around half of pensioner households fall into that category. The average retired person whose main income is from sources other than a state pension can afford to spend 10 per cent of their income on travel. That is an average expenditure of £16 per week. Expenditure of £5 to £16 is hardly a king's ransom, but it is not enough to meet the fares so that people can remain actively involved socially and economically in our society, or maintain contact with friends and relatives either near or far. Obviously, part of the problem for many is the cost of fuel. We in the Scottish National party are conscious that notwithstanding our proposal, access to the motor car will remain vital for many urban and rural pensioners although, as I have said previously, that is a matter for another day. There is a multitude of schemes for providing concessionary transport. Some are good, some are not so good and some are downright deficient. The problem is that they are diverse, diffuse and unco-ordinated. We need a national scheme. We must put an end to the national shame of older people having to hop on and off buses, in and out of various schemes, to visit a friend or relative several counties away. We must have a national lead. The Executive is to be applauded for supporting a national concessionary fares scheme for the blind. It stands condemned for leaving local authorities to foot the bill, as a national scheme is a national obligation and should be funded as such. Now that the Executive has paved the way and proved that a national concessionary scheme is possible, there is neither rhyme nor reason why such a scheme should not be extended to other groups of people, especially pensioners, sooner rather than later. The Scottish National party proposes a national concessionary fares scheme for older people, which would provide them with benefits and entitlement anywhere in our nation. We propose to build on the best practices of the best local authorities and to top up the existing benefits that many receive. Our proposal would not replace or supplant concessionary fares, or the absence of fares, operating in many authorities. It meets the criteria of added value and additionality. We propose a scheme of half fares nationally. In areas where a better deal is on offer, that will remain. For example, in Fife, pensioners travel for free. Unless Fife Council changes its policy, that will remain the position. We propose to extend the scheme by allowing access to all points beyond the county boundary, at no extra cost to the local authority. How do we propose to fund that? I note that Mr McNulty is not here with his so-called wish list. The answer is simple. We will fund it through the fuel duty rebate scheme that is in operation. I will digress to remind the chamber of the operation and history of that method of supporting public transport. The fuel duty escalator has driven up the price of diesel to one of the highest rates in Europe. However, the fuel duty rebate has not kept pace. Although last year an increase was made to compensate, there is still a considerable gap between the rebate and the fuel duty escalator. The rebate is 35p per litre, compared with 50p of duty per litre. Thus, the rebate covers only 69 per cent of the duty. If the fuel duty escalator is wrong and the fuel duty rebate is right, surely now is the time to right the wrong and level up the rebate to meet the real cost of fuel. The maximum cost of that would be £19 million. That is small change in comparison with the bounty that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has obtained through fuel duty, VAT and petroleum revenue tax. It is affordable, practical and essential. It is only one aspect of transport policy for older people, but it would go a long way to lifting the financial curfew and breaking the transport chains that imprison many in the older generation. The problem in the chamber is not only the poverty of pensioners; it is the poverty of aspiration of the likes of Mr McNulty.", "EditedTextHTML": "I wish to deal with the transport aspect of the debate. I am conscious of the time limitation and the breadth of the subject. I will make some general comments, but my fundamental aim is to call for a national concessionary fare scheme for buses.

The transport problems that face the elderly are affordability, availability and accessibility. The lamentable pension entitlement after a lifetime's work has been dealt with by my colleagues already; the pension—or the lack of it—affects the mobility of the elderly. Those who are limited to a state pension are curfewed by cost. The average pensioner who is dependent on a state pension spends, on average, 6 per cent of his income on

travel. That is an expenditure of £5 per week. Around half of pensioner households fall into that category. The average retired person whose main income is from sources other than a state pension can afford to spend 10 per cent of their income on travel. That is an average expenditure of £16 per week. Expenditure of £5 to £16 is hardly a king's ransom, but it is not enough to meet the fares so that people can remain actively involved socially and economically in our society, or maintain contact with friends and relatives either near or far.

Obviously, part of the problem for many is the cost of fuel. We in the Scottish National party are conscious that notwithstanding our proposal, access to the motor car will remain vital for many urban and rural pensioners although, as I have said previously, that is a matter for another day.

There is a multitude of schemes for providing concessionary transport. Some are good, some are not so good and some are downright deficient. The problem is that they are diverse, diffuse and unco-ordinated. We need a national scheme. We must put an end to the national shame of older people having to hop on and off buses, in and out of various schemes, to visit a friend or relative several counties away.

We must have a national lead. The Executive is to be applauded for supporting a national concessionary fares scheme for the blind. It stands condemned for leaving local authorities to foot the bill, as a national scheme is a national obligation and should be funded as such. Now that the Executive has paved the way and proved that a national concessionary scheme is possible, there is neither rhyme nor reason why such a scheme should not be extended to other groups of people, especially pensioners, sooner rather than later.

The Scottish National party proposes a national concessionary fares scheme for older people, which would provide them with benefits and entitlement anywhere in our nation. We propose to build on the best practices of the best local authorities and to top up the existing benefits that many receive. Our proposal would not replace or supplant concessionary fares, or the absence of fares, operating in many authorities. It meets the criteria of added value and additionality. We propose a scheme of half fares nationally. In areas where a better deal is on offer, that will remain. For example, in Fife, pensioners travel for free. Unless Fife Council changes its policy, that will remain the position. We propose to extend the scheme by allowing access to all points beyond the county boundary, at no extra cost to the local authority.

How do we propose to fund that? I note that Mr McNulty is not here with his so-called wish list. The answer is simple. We will fund it through the fuel duty rebate scheme that is in operation. I will digress to remind the chamber of the operation and history of that method of supporting public transport. The fuel duty escalator has driven up the price of diesel to one of the highest rates in Europe. However, the fuel duty rebate has not kept pace. Although last year an increase was made to compensate, there is still a considerable gap between the rebate and the fuel duty escalator. The rebate is 35p per litre, compared with 50p of duty per litre. Thus, the rebate covers only 69 per cent of the duty.

If the fuel duty escalator is wrong and the fuel duty rebate is right, surely now is the time to right the wrong and level up the rebate to meet the real cost of fuel. The maximum cost of that would be £19 million. That is small change in comparison with the bounty that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has obtained through fuel duty, VAT and petroleum revenue tax. It is affordable, practical and essential. It is only one aspect of transport policy for older people, but it would go a long way to lifting the financial curfew and breaking the transport chains that imprison many in the older generation.

The problem in the chamber is not only the poverty of pensioners; it is the poverty of aspiration of the likes of Mr McNulty.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2033E106P139C712963", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gray, Iain", "ID": 2033, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Pentlands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Iain Gray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Iain Gray: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 193.0, "ContributionID": 712963, "EditedText": "The issue of heart transplants has come up a couple of times today, but I think that it was addressed recently in a parliamentary question. There is a balance to be struck between the benefit of a transplant and the risk that the patient might not survive such invasive surgery. Judgments about when to conduct surgery are based on clinical assessments. It is not true that there is a ban on transplants for the over-60s.", "EditedTextHTML": "The issue of heart transplants has come up a couple of times today, but I think that it was addressed recently in a parliamentary question. There is a balance to be struck between the benefit of a transplant and the risk that the patient might not survive such invasive surgery.

Judgments about when to conduct surgery are based on clinical assessments. It is not true that there is a ban on transplants for the over-60s.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1752E75P296C712969", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jamieson, Cathy", "ID": 1752, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Cathy Jamieson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Cathy Jamieson (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 207.0, "ContributionID": 712969, "EditedText": "Given that the member has such an interest in providing advocacy services and supporting the rights of young people, does he welcome the commitment in the Scottish Labour party manifesto to set up similar systems and organisations to ensure the protection and promotion of the rights of older people?", "EditedTextHTML": "Given that the member has such an interest in providing advocacy services and supporting the rights of young people, does he welcome the commitment in the Scottish Labour party manifesto to set up similar systems and organisations to ensure the protection and promotion of the rights of older people?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1986E53P206C712976", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeil, Duncan", "ID": 1986, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Greenock and Inverclyde" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan McNeil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Duncan McNeil (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 225.0, "ContributionID": 712976, "EditedText": "It is a matter of regret that the only pensioner to take part in this debate, Donald Gorrie, used the debate for other motives.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is a matter of regret that the only pensioner to take part in this debate, Donald Gorrie, used the debate for other motives.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C712985", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Patricia Ferguson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 243.0, "ContributionID": 712985, "EditedText": "Order.", "EditedTextHTML": "Order.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1986E53P206C712986", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeil, Duncan", "ID": 1986, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Greenock and Inverclyde" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan McNeil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McNeil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 245.0, "ContributionID": 712986, "EditedText": "Those pensioners are winning their campaign because we are delivering on their calls to tackle fuel poverty through winter fuel payments, cuts in VAT and the warm deal programme, as well as providing free eye tests and free TV licences—all measures which the Opposition has spat on this morning.", "EditedTextHTML": "Those pensioners are winning their campaign because we are delivering on their calls to tackle fuel poverty through winter fuel payments, cuts in VAT and the warm deal programme, as well as providing free eye tests and free TV licences—all measures which the Opposition has spat on this morning.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1986E53P206C712989", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeil, Duncan", "ID": 1986, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Greenock and Inverclyde" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan McNeil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McNeil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 251.0, "ContributionID": 712989, "EditedText": "The measures that I mentioned are in place because we have a Labour Government at Westminster and a Labour partnership Executive in Edinburgh. Interruption.", "EditedTextHTML": "The measures that I mentioned are in place because we have a Labour Government at Westminster and a Labour partnership Executive in Edinburgh. [Interruption.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1986E53P206C712991", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeil, Duncan", "ID": 1986, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Greenock and Inverclyde" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan McNeil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McNeil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 255.0, "ContributionID": 712991, "EditedText": "We will continue—Interruption. I am nearly home, I think.", "EditedTextHTML": "We will continue—[Interruption.] I am nearly home, I think.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2033E106P139C712994", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gray, Iain", "ID": 2033, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Pentlands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Iain Gray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Iain Gray: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 261.0, "ContributionID": 712994, "EditedText": "Mr McNeil has pointed out that he has been heckled by boilermakers. Does he agree that that heckling was almost certainly of a higher quality than the heckling that we are hearing now?", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr McNeil has pointed out that he has been heckled by boilermakers. Does he agree that that heckling was almost certainly of a higher quality than the heckling that we are hearing now?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1826E199P351C712999", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Smith, Margaret", "ID": 1826, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Smith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Margaret Smith (Edinburgh West) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 273.0, "ContributionID": 712999, "EditedText": "While I welcome the SNP's putting the issue of older people on today's agenda, I would point out that one aspect of its motion is not dealt with by this Parliament, but at Westminster. On this momentous day, the first on which there has been a truly federal situation among the Parliaments and Assemblies in the United Kingdom, I want to focus on the issues which this Parliament can tackle. How we treat our older people is a prime indicator of where we stand as a society, as a country and a Parliament. None of us doubt, particularly after hearing Donald Gorrie's speech, that older members of our community have much to offer Scotland. Members who have had dealings with the voluntary sector know the desperate state that this country would be in were it not for the extra work that older people put into the voluntary sector. Yet 31 per cent of our pensioners live in poverty. No member of this chamber finds that statistic acceptable or believes that we should not tackle the problem, although we may have different views on how to do so. said that, in summing up for the Liberal Democrats, I would concentrate on the issues that this Parliament is able to tackle, but I must talk about pensions first. Our pensioners want better pensions and the Liberal Democrats urge Gordon Brown to open his war chest and to give them just that. We want money from the national insurance fund to give our pensioners a better deal. Pensioners have consistently had a raw deal—the Conservatives' VAT on fuel and the removal of the link between pensions and earnings have contributed to the stage that we have reached. The latest increase in the pension is appalling. I acknowledge the initiatives mentioned by my Labour colleagues, such as the £100 winter fuel payment, free TV licences and free eye tests, which no one would say are not good initiatives. However, they amount only to inadequate steps on the way to tackling pensioner poverty. People want decent homes. On the brink of the millennium, 25 per cent of Scotland's homes are damp or affected by condensation, which means that 4,000 Scots will face death this winter as a result of poor housing and the cold. Hundreds of thousands of others suffer from cold and damp- related illnesses, such as respiratory disease, heart disease, stroke and the general depression that comes from living in poverty and dampness. Every year, there are 70,000 emergency admissions to our hospitals of people suffering respiratory problems, and that figure does not include those suffering from flu.", "EditedTextHTML": "While I welcome the SNP's putting the issue of older people on today's agenda, I would point out that one aspect of its motion is not dealt with by this Parliament, but at Westminster. On this momentous day, the first on which there has been a truly federal situation among the Parliaments and Assemblies in the United Kingdom, I want to focus on the issues which this Parliament can tackle.

How we treat our older people is a prime indicator of where we stand as a society, as a country and a Parliament. None of us doubt, particularly after hearing Donald Gorrie's speech, that older members of our community have much to offer Scotland. Members who have had dealings with the voluntary sector know the

desperate state that this country would be in were it not for the extra work that older people put into the voluntary sector. Yet 31 per cent of our pensioners live in poverty. No member of this chamber finds that statistic acceptable or believes that we should not tackle the problem, although we may have different views on how to do so. said that, in summing up for the Liberal Democrats, I would concentrate on the issues that this Parliament is able to tackle, but I must talk about pensions first. Our pensioners want better pensions and the Liberal Democrats urge Gordon Brown to open his war chest and to give them just that. We want money from the national insurance fund to give our pensioners a better deal. Pensioners have consistently had a raw deal—the Conservatives' VAT on fuel and the removal of the link between pensions and earnings have contributed to the stage that we have reached. The latest increase in the pension is appalling. I acknowledge the initiatives mentioned by my Labour colleagues, such as the £100 winter fuel payment, free TV licences and free eye tests, which no one would say are not good initiatives. However, they amount only to inadequate steps on the way to tackling pensioner poverty.

People want decent homes. On the brink of the millennium, 25 per cent of Scotland's homes are damp or affected by condensation, which means that 4,000 Scots will face death this winter as a result of poor housing and the cold. Hundreds of thousands of others suffer from cold and damp- related illnesses, such as respiratory disease, heart disease, stroke and the general depression that comes from living in poverty and dampness. Every year, there are 70,000 emergency admissions to our hospitals of people suffering respiratory problems, and that figure does not include those suffering from flu.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1876E194P490C713002", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Marwick, Tricia", "ID": 1876, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tricia Marwick", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tricia Marwick: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 279.0, "ContributionID": 713002, "EditedText": "But what about fuel poverty?", "EditedTextHTML": "But what about fuel poverty?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C713008", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 292.0, "ContributionID": 713008, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1826E199P351C713004", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Smith, Margaret", "ID": 1826, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Smith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Smith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 283.0, "ContributionID": 713004, "EditedText": "I was about to come to that point. Against the background of Scotland's housing stock, we should tackle fuel poverty, which is exactly what the Executive is beginning to do. While the death toll rises in Scotland during the winter months, Sweden, Norway, Finland and similar countries, which have worse winters than Scotland has, have a better record of addressing that—that is a salutary lesson. MEMBERS: \"They are independent.\" Members may say that, but it is simply a mantra. Independence alone will not tackle the poverty and the problems faced by Scotland's pensioners. I gave up believing in Santa Claus and fairies at the bottom of my garden a long time ago and, quite frankly, the SNP and the independence money tree are on the same level as Santa Claus and the fairies. The Executive's warm deal is the first part of a healthy homes initiative that, by 2003, aims to improve 100,000 houses that are affected by dampness and condensation. With an annual budget of £12 million, the warm deal is merely the first step on the road to achieving warmer homes. Targeting lower-income groups for the £500 grants for insulation will also target many pensioner households and is welcome. However, if we are serious about tackling poverty, we must tackle fuel poverty and energy-inefficient homes. We must also consider how to give our GPs more leeway. They should have the power to think laterally on the issue of patients with respiratory problems who live in damp homes. Would it not be more effective to allow GPs to write prescriptions for home insulation, rather than sending people home to suffer in damp and cold homes? Such action would mean savings for our pensioners and for the NHS and improved health for our people. There are other issues that are also of interest to our older people. Many of us, including Scotland's pensioners, want a clear message from the UK Government that it will accept all the recommendations of the Sutherland report into long-term care. Many of our older people live in fear of having to sell their homes to pay for long- term care. We welcome the minister's announcement today that he will chair a new group that will examine the balance between residential and home-based care—and, crucially, the charging for personal care that is delivered at home—and produce proposals in time for the next spending review. We also welcome the extra £300 million that is being made available to local authorities for community care. The Health and Community Care Committee has decided to examine the issue of community care and focus partly on long-term care of the elderly as one of its main issues of inquiry early in the new year. Older people want the unfair system, in which people must pay for care at home or in a hospital, to be scrapped. That system is partly why we are bedblocking in our hospitals, at a cost of millions of pounds to the NHS and at a much greater cost to older people, who are receiving inappropriate care. This Parliament must tackle issues such as community care and transport. We must also address the fact that, throughout Scotland, several thousand people, as Gil Paterson said, are entitled to benefits but do not claim them. Both our Parliaments, in the UK and in Scotland, must address that right now.", "EditedTextHTML": "I was about to come to that point. Against the background of Scotland's housing stock, we should tackle fuel poverty, which is exactly what the Executive is beginning to do.

While the death toll rises in Scotland during the winter months, Sweden, Norway, Finland and similar countries, which have worse winters than Scotland has, have a better record of addressing that—that is a salutary lesson. [MEMBERS: \"They are independent.\"] Members may say that, but it is simply a mantra. Independence alone will not tackle the poverty and the problems faced by Scotland's pensioners. I gave up believing in Santa Claus and fairies at the bottom of my garden a long time ago and, quite frankly, the SNP and the independence money tree are on the same level as Santa Claus and the fairies.

The Executive's warm deal is the first part of a healthy homes initiative that, by 2003, aims to improve 100,000 houses that are affected by dampness and condensation. With an annual budget of £12 million, the warm deal is merely the first step on the road to achieving warmer homes. Targeting lower-income groups for the £500 grants for insulation will also target many pensioner households and is welcome. However, if we are serious about tackling poverty, we must tackle fuel poverty and energy-inefficient homes.

We must also consider how to give our GPs more leeway. They should have the power to think laterally on the issue of patients with respiratory problems who live in damp homes. Would it not be more effective to allow GPs to write prescriptions for home insulation, rather than sending people home to suffer in damp and cold homes? Such action would mean savings for our pensioners and for the NHS and improved health for our people.

There are other issues that are also of interest to our older people. Many of us, including Scotland's pensioners, want a clear message from the UK Government that it will accept all the recommendations of the Sutherland report into long-term care. Many of our older people live in fear of having to sell their homes to pay for long- term care. We welcome the minister's announcement today that he will chair a new group that will examine the balance between residential and home-based care—and, crucially, the charging for personal care that is delivered at home—and produce proposals in time for the next spending review.

We also welcome the extra £300 million that is being made available to local authorities for community care. The Health and Community Care Committee has decided to examine the issue of community care and focus partly on long-term care of the elderly as one of its main issues of inquiry early in the new year.

Older people want the unfair system, in which people must pay for care at home or in a hospital, to be scrapped. That system is partly why we are bedblocking in our hospitals, at a cost of millions of pounds to the NHS and at a much greater cost

to older people, who are receiving inappropriate care. This Parliament must tackle issues such as community care and transport. We must also address the fact that, throughout Scotland, several thousand people, as Gil Paterson said, are entitled to benefits but do not claim them. Both our Parliaments, in the UK and in Scotland, must address that right now.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2140E187P335C713006", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Rumbles, Mike", "ID": 2140, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Rumbles", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Rumbles: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 288.0, "ContributionID": 713006, "EditedText": "John Young rightly mentioned the 75p increase in pensions and the fact that it would buy The Herald and a bag of crisps. The Liberal Democrats 10 days ago tabled an early-day motion in the House of Commons that said that the 75p increase would be inadequate. Bearing in mind his comments, will Mr Young explain to the chamber why not a single Conservative member of the UK Parliament wants to support that motion?", "EditedTextHTML": "John Young rightly mentioned the 75p increase in pensions and the fact that it would buy The Herald and a bag of crisps. The Liberal Democrats 10 days ago tabled an early-day motion in the House of Commons that said that the 75p increase would be inadequate. Bearing in mind his comments, will Mr Young explain to the chamber why not a single Conservative member of the UK Parliament wants to support that motion?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2099E29P51C713007", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Young, John", "ID": 2099, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Young", "SpeakerDisplayName": "John Young: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 290.0, "ContributionID": 713007, "EditedText": "As Mike Rumbles knows, that is a matter for Westminster. What are the Liberals here going to do? Will they lodge a motion of that type in this chamber?", "EditedTextHTML": "As Mike Rumbles knows, that is a matter for Westminster. What are the Liberals here going to do? Will they lodge a motion of that type in this chamber?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2099E29P51C713009", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Young, John", "ID": 2099, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Young", "SpeakerDisplayName": "John Young: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 294.0, "ContributionID": 713009, "EditedText": "I am sorry, but I am pressed for time. The figures that I have quoted are taken from data from 1996. If they were updated, there would be another £25 for single people and £40 for couples to be included. Age Concern commissioned a Gallup survey earlier this year and that survey found that one in 20 people older than 65 in the UK had been refused medical treatment. Kay Ullrich and others have touched on that. The majority of people who are treated in NHS hospitals for heart attacks are more than 65 years of age, but one in five coronary care units operates an age-related admissions policy. Clinical trials on cancers similarly exclude or under-represent older people, despite the fact that many cancers are age- related. That was touched on by a number of speakers. Announcements on free television licences and winter fuel allowances are welcome to existing pensioners, but new pensioners will still be £500 worse off as a result of the abolition of the age- related married couples allowance. Once again, Labour is giving with one hand, but taking away with the other. Three million households in the UK that have a television include at least one pensioner older than 75 years. The cost to the Department of Social Security of free licences will be £300 million. While the Conservatives support that move, it will not offset the problems that have been imposed on pensioners through the ending of the married couples allowance for those aged more than 65. There are higher council tax bills, and £40 billion of extra taxes have been imposed since this Government came to power. Speakers have touched on age discrimination, which is—make no mistake—rampant against the elderly in relation to employment. Men and women experience such discrimination. Other generations suffer from age discrimination. Those between 35 and 50 suffer considerable age discrimination, so perhaps some thought should be given to introducing appropriate legislation, although that would be difficult to enforce. When one refers to the elderly, the picture that is painted is usually of someone who has grey hair, who stoops and who uses a walking-stick. That description is by no means applicable throughout that group, in which I include myself. There are affluent elements among the elderly and they should not be disregarded. There is considerable purchasing power among them. That section of the community is very important. I think that Robert Brown mentioned earlier that we should try to harness the talents of that group. The Americans call it grey power. They use that term in a political sense, but it also means people's talents. On 30 November—some 48 hours ago—the all- party group on aging and older people met in committee room 2 in the House of Commons. Jeff Rooker, the Minister of State, Department of Social Security, and the chairman of the interministerial group on older people, was a guest speaker. I hope that that gathering was well attended by MPs of all parties. There is something to be learned from it. There is an issue that I think is of supreme importance—the gap that often exists between youth and the elderly. There are various reasons for that gap. First, many of our younger populations have, as a result of unemployment, no opportunity to work alongside older colleagues. I am not suggesting that it be brought back, but in the days of national service many thousands benefited from links between people in their 20s, their 30s and their 40s. Large sections of the media are heavily geared towards youth, and there is nothing wrong with that, but there is sometimes a considerable imbalance against the aged. Care must be taken not only over the design of housing for the elderly, but over whether a family mix should be included in such housing. That has been touched on already. When I was a councillor, there was resistance to family mixes among certain elderly people. They did not like 12-year olds kicking a ball against their walls, and other things of that nature. Gil Paterson and others have mentioned transport. The design of vehicles is crucial to allow the elderly ease of access to them. Johann Lamont mentioned transport routes to hospitals. They are crucially important, as a number of us are well aware in terms of the south side of Glasgow and the Southern general hospital. Many elderly people are terrified to leave their homes in the evenings. In some areas there is considerable fear of burglary and attack, so many of our older citizens live like hermits. I believe all members are concerned about these things, although we may differ, on occasion, on how to approach them. There are pensioners in the gallery today, and pensioners came to the Parliament last week. I agreed with a lot of what Iain Gray said then, but a number of people I spoke to were from Clydebank and Knightswood— two very strong Labour areas—and they felt that they were not getting the considerable input that Iain spoke about. A possible coalition has been mentioned; a politicians coalition is needed. People in the gallery and throughout Scotland are not interested in us arguing away in this chamber. They want a combined force. Yes, we will have our differences, but let us come together in some form of pensioners coalition.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry, but I am pressed for time.

The figures that I have quoted are taken from data from 1996. If they were updated, there would be another £25 for single people and £40 for couples to be included.

Age Concern commissioned a Gallup survey earlier this year and that survey found that one in 20 people older than 65 in the UK had been refused medical treatment. Kay Ullrich and others have touched on that. The majority of people who are treated in NHS hospitals for heart attacks are more than 65 years of age, but one in five coronary care units operates an age-related admissions policy. Clinical trials on cancers similarly exclude or under-represent older people, despite the fact that many cancers are age- related. That was touched on by a number of speakers.

Announcements on free television licences and winter fuel allowances are welcome to existing pensioners, but new pensioners will still be £500 worse off as a result of the abolition of the age- related married couples allowance. Once again, Labour is giving with one hand, but taking away with the other. Three million households in the UK that have a television include at least one pensioner older than 75 years. The cost to the Department of Social Security of free licences will be £300 million. While the Conservatives support

that move, it will not offset the problems that have been imposed on pensioners through the ending of the married couples allowance for those aged more than 65. There are higher council tax bills, and £40 billion of extra taxes have been imposed since this Government came to power.

Speakers have touched on age discrimination, which is—make no mistake—rampant against the elderly in relation to employment. Men and women experience such discrimination. Other generations suffer from age discrimination. Those between 35 and 50 suffer considerable age discrimination, so perhaps some thought should be given to introducing appropriate legislation, although that would be difficult to enforce. When one refers to the elderly, the picture that is painted is usually of someone who has grey hair, who stoops and who uses a walking-stick. That description is by no means applicable throughout that group, in which I include myself.

There are affluent elements among the elderly and they should not be disregarded. There is considerable purchasing power among them. That section of the community is very important. I think that Robert Brown mentioned earlier that we should try to harness the talents of that group. The Americans call it grey power. They use that term in a political sense, but it also means people's talents.

On 30 November—some 48 hours ago—the all- party group on aging and older people met in committee room 2 in the House of Commons. Jeff Rooker, the Minister of State, Department of Social Security, and the chairman of the interministerial group on older people, was a guest speaker. I hope that that gathering was well attended by MPs of all parties. There is something to be learned from it.

There is an issue that I think is of supreme importance—the gap that often exists between youth and the elderly. There are various reasons for that gap. First, many of our younger populations have, as a result of unemployment, no opportunity to work alongside older colleagues. I am not suggesting that it be brought back, but in the days of national service many thousands benefited from links between people in their 20s, their 30s and their 40s. Large sections of the media are heavily geared towards youth, and there is nothing wrong with that, but there is sometimes a considerable imbalance against the aged.

Care must be taken not only over the design of housing for the elderly, but over whether a family mix should be included in such housing. That has been touched on already. When I was a councillor, there was resistance to family mixes among certain elderly people. They did not like 12-year olds kicking a ball against their walls, and other things of that nature.

Gil Paterson and others have mentioned transport. The design of vehicles is crucial to allow the elderly ease of access to them. Johann Lamont mentioned transport routes to hospitals. They are crucially important, as a number of us are well aware in terms of the south side of Glasgow and the Southern general hospital. Many elderly people are terrified to leave their homes in the evenings. In some areas there is considerable fear of burglary and attack, so many of our older citizens live like hermits.

I believe all members are concerned about these things, although we may differ, on occasion, on how to approach them. There are pensioners in the gallery today, and pensioners came to the Parliament last week. I agreed with a lot of what Iain Gray said then, but a number of people I spoke to were from Clydebank and Knightswood— two very strong Labour areas—and they felt that they were not getting the considerable input that Iain spoke about. A possible coalition has been mentioned; a politicians coalition is needed. People in the gallery and throughout Scotland are not interested in us arguing away in this chamber. They want a combined force. Yes, we will have our differences, but let us come together in some form of pensioners coalition.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C713011", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 299.0, "ContributionID": 713011, "EditedText": "I am grateful to the ministerfor giving way as that is the point I most wanted to intervene on. What does the Scottish Executive see as the poverty line and how does that relate to the minimum income guarantee?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful to the minister

for giving way as that is the point I most wanted to intervene on. What does the Scottish Executive see as the poverty line and how does that relate to the minimum income guarantee?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.685737+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1821E295P538C713013", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Mrs Margaret", "ID": 1821, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Moray" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Margaret Ewing rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 303.0, "ContributionID": 713013, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1821E295P538C713015", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Mrs Margaret", "ID": 1821, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Moray" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Ewing rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 307.0, "ContributionID": 713015, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C713019", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 315.0, "ContributionID": 713019, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1821E295P538C713021", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Mrs Margaret", "ID": 1821, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Moray" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 319.0, "ContributionID": 713021, "EditedText": "I have been trying for some time to persuade the minister to give way. Leaving aside the fact that our manifesto contained a clear pensioners package, may I remind the minister of the fact that, when the SNP group in the House of Commons tabled an amendment to reduce VAT on domestic fuel to 5 per cent, no less a person than Alistair Darling said that it was a cynical ploy?", "EditedTextHTML": "I have been trying for some time to persuade the minister to give way. Leaving aside the fact that our manifesto contained a clear pensioners package, may I remind the minister of the fact that, when the SNP group in the House of Commons tabled an amendment to reduce VAT on domestic fuel to 5 per cent, no less a person than Alistair Darling said that it was a cynical ploy?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C713023", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 323.0, "ContributionID": 713023, "EditedText": "On a point of order. I have the manifesto here—", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. I have the manifesto here—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C713037", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 351.0, "ContributionID": 713037, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1821E295P538C713041", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Mrs Margaret", "ID": 1821, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Moray" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 359.0, "ContributionID": 713041, "EditedText": "On a point of order, Presiding Officer. Following what Mike Rumbles has said, will the minister withdraw her rather insulting remark about Donald Gorrie?", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order, Presiding Officer. Following what Mike Rumbles has said, will the minister withdraw her rather insulting remark about Donald Gorrie?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C713044", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 365.0, "ContributionID": 713044, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2033E106P139C713053", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gray, Iain", "ID": 2033, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Pentlands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Iain Gray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Iain Gray: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 384.0, "ContributionID": 713053, "EditedText": "There is no difference between us on those points. I said earlier that those initiatives are being taken forward. As I said, the Minister for Health and Community Care and I agree that those are not being taken forward quickly enough, so I have announced today how we intend to do so.", "EditedTextHTML": "There is no difference between us on those points. I said earlier that those initiatives are being taken forward. As I said, the Minister for Health and Community Care and I agree that those are not being taken forward quickly enough, so I have announced today how we intend to do so.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1996E124P211C713057", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAveety, Mr Frank", "ID": 1996, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Shettleston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Local Government", "SpeakerName": "Frank McAveety", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McAveety: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 392.0, "ContributionID": 713057, "EditedText": "Will Christine Grahame give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Christine Grahame give way?

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" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713084", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27150, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 410.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 410.0, "ID": 27150, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 430.0, "ContributionID": 713084, "EditedText": "Thursday 16 December 1999", "EditedTextHTML": "Thursday 16 December 1999

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713086", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27150, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 410.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 410.0, "ID": 27150, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 432.0, "ContributionID": 713086, "EditedText": "2.30 pm Question Time", "EditedTextHTML": "2.30 pm Question Time

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713091", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Lead Committee", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27151, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 438.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 438.0, "ID": 27151, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 439.0, "ContributionID": 713091, "EditedText": "Motion moved,", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion moved,

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713093", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Lead Committee", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27151, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 438.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 438.0, "ID": 27151, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 441.0, "ContributionID": 713093, "EditedText": "The Local Government Committee to consider The Non- domestic Rating Contributions (Scotland) Amendment Regulations 1999, SSI 1999/153.—Mr McCabe.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Local Government Committee to consider The Non- domestic Rating Contributions (Scotland) Amendment Regulations 1999, SSI 1999/153.—[Mr McCabe.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C713094", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Lead Committee", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27151, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 438.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 438.0, "ID": 27151, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 442.0, "ContributionID": 713094, "EditedText": "The question on this motion will be put at decision time. Question, That the meeting be now adjourned until 2.30 pm today, put and agreed to.—Iain Smith.", "EditedTextHTML": "The question on this motion will be put at decision time.

Question, That the meeting be now adjourned until 2.30 pm today, put and agreed to.—[Iain Smith.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713096", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Lead Committee", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27151, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 438.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 438.0, "ID": 27151, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 446.0, "ContributionID": 713096, "EditedText": "On resuming—", "EditedTextHTML": "On resuming—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713097", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27152, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 447.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27153, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 448.0, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 448.0, "ID": 27153, "ParentID": 27152 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 449.0, "ContributionID": 713097, "EditedText": "The first business this afternoon is question time. I remind members that, following last week's point of order from the convener of the Procedures Committee, supplementary questions have to relate specifically to the original question.", "EditedTextHTML": "The first business this afternoon is question time. I remind members that, following last week's point of order from the convener of the Procedures Committee, supplementary questions have to relate specifically to the original question.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1892E34P73C713100", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27152, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 447.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27153, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 448.0, "QuestionHeading": "Compulsory Purchase", "QuestionHeadingID": 27154, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 451.0, "DisplayOrder": 451.0, "ID": 27154, "ParentID": 27153 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Fergusson, Alex", "ID": 1892, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Fergusson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Fergusson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 456.0, "ContributionID": 713100, "EditedText": "Will the adoption of the ECHR be taken into account in the event of the compulsory purchase of land in connection with the Scotland to Northern Ireland interconnector?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the adoption of the ECHR be taken into account in the event of the compulsory purchase of land in connection with the Scotland to Northern Ireland interconnector?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2118E157P454C713104", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27152, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 447.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27153, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 448.0, "QuestionHeading": "Offender Rehabilitation", "QuestionHeadingID": 27155, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 464.0, "DisplayOrder": 464.0, "ID": 27155, "ParentID": 27153 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Quinan, Mr Lloyd", "ID": 2118, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lloyd Quinan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "2. Mr Lloyd Quinan (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 465.0, "ContributionID": 713104, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what measures are being taken to provide rehabilitation for offenders with drug abuse problems within prisons. (S1O771)", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what measures are being taken to provide rehabilitation for offenders with drug abuse problems within prisons. (S1O771)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C713107", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27152, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 447.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27153, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 448.0, "QuestionHeading": "Offender Rehabilitation", "QuestionHeadingID": 27155, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 464.0, "DisplayOrder": 464.0, "ID": 27155, "ParentID": 27153 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Angus MacKay: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 471.0, "ContributionID": 713107, "EditedText": "The capacity of the Scottish Prison Service to provide rehabilitation measures has been expanded. Around 5,300 prisoners will access services in this financial year; that figure is up from 1,656 in 1997-98. In addition, the SPS is examining how existing services might be expanded in the future.", "EditedTextHTML": "The capacity of the Scottish Prison Service to provide rehabilitation measures has been expanded. Around 5,300 prisoners will access services in this financial year; that figure is up from 1,656 in 1997-98. In addition, the SPS is examining how existing services might be expanded in the future.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713109", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27152, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 447.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27153, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 448.0, "QuestionHeading": "Offender Rehabilitation", "QuestionHeadingID": 27155, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 464.0, "DisplayOrder": 464.0, "ID": 27155, "ParentID": 27153 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 475.0, "ContributionID": 713109, "EditedText": "Mr Quinan—I am sorry, but I did not call you.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Quinan—I am sorry, but I did not call you.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1823E145P193C713110", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27152, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 447.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27153, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 448.0, "QuestionHeading": "International Criminal Court", "QuestionHeadingID": 27156, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 477.0, "DisplayOrder": 477.0, "ID": 27156, "ParentID": 27153 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jamieson, Margaret", "ID": 1823, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Kilmarnock and Loudoun" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Jamieson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "3. Margaret Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 478.0, "ContributionID": 713110, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what discussions it has held with Her Majesty's Government about the ratification of the treaty on the international criminal court and whether it has identified any amendments to Scots law which may be necessary as a result of this ratification. (S1O-734) The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice (Mr Jim Wallace): The Scottish Executive has been involved in regular discussions with Her Majesty's Government about the statute of the international criminal court. Domestic legislation will be needed before the United Kingdom can ratify the statute. We envisage modifications to Scottish criminal law, procedure and jurisdiction.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what discussions it has held with Her Majesty's Government about the ratification of the treaty on the international criminal court and whether it has identified any amendments to Scots law which may be necessary as a result of this ratification. (S1O-734) The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice (Mr Jim Wallace): The Scottish Executive has been involved in regular discussions with Her Majesty's Government about the statute of the international criminal court. Domestic legislation will be needed before the United Kingdom can ratify the statute. We envisage modifications to Scottish criminal law, procedure and jurisdiction.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1823E145P193C713111", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27152, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 447.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27153, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 448.0, "QuestionHeading": "International Criminal Court", "QuestionHeadingID": 27156, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 477.0, "DisplayOrder": 477.0, "ID": 27156, "ParentID": 27153 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jamieson, Margaret", "ID": 1823, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Kilmarnock and Loudoun" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Jamieson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Margaret Jamieson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 480.0, "ContributionID": 713111, "EditedText": "Will separate legislation be required in order to comply with the treaty?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will separate legislation be required in order to comply with the treaty?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1985E207P501C713114", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27152, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 447.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27153, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 448.0, "QuestionHeading": "Women's Aid Refuges", "QuestionHeadingID": 27157, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 484.0, "DisplayOrder": 484.0, "ID": 27157, "ParentID": 27153 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hamilton, Mr Duncan", "ID": 1985, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Hamilton: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 487.0, "ContributionID": 713114, "EditedText": "Is the minister aware of the plight of women in rural communities, who often have to raise a court action in one location, are forced to move to another location and then have to return to the first location to pursue the action? Furthermore, is she aware of the additional cost of travelling in rural communities and of the frequent necessity to stay overnight? If so, will she commit the Executive to further funding to ensure that those women are properly catered for?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is the minister aware of the plight of women in rural communities, who often have to raise a court action in one location, are forced to move to another location and then have to return to the first location to pursue the action? Furthermore, is she aware of the additional cost of travelling in rural communities and of the frequent necessity to stay overnight? If so, will she commit the Executive to further funding to ensure that those women are properly catered for?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C713118", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27152, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 447.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27153, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 448.0, "QuestionHeading": "Hepatitis C", "QuestionHeadingID": 27158, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 491.0, "DisplayOrder": 491.0, "ID": 27158, "ParentID": 27153 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 496.0, "ContributionID": 713118, "EditedText": "I have seen the report to which Keith Raffan refers and agree that it is important to study the available research into how hepatitis C is transmitted and can be prevented. That is why the Scottish Office commissioned a report from the Scottish needs assessment programme earlier this year. We expect a working group that is examining the issue to report early in 2000; I will want to consider those findings very carefully.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have seen the report to which Keith Raffan refers and agree that it is important to study the available research into how hepatitis C is transmitted and can be prevented. That is why the Scottish Office commissioned a report from the Scottish needs assessment programme earlier this year. We expect a working group that is examining the issue to report early in 2000; I will want to consider those findings very carefully.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1931E120P189C713122", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27152, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 447.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27153, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 448.0, "QuestionHeading": "Frail Elderly People", "QuestionHeadingID": 27160, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 505.0, "DisplayOrder": 505.0, "ID": 27160, "ParentID": 27153 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Muldoon, Bristow", "ID": 1931, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Livingston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bristow Muldoon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "7. Bristow Muldoon (Livingston) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 506.0, "ContributionID": 713122, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what progress it is making in building closer co-operation between local authorities and the national health service in the delivery of services to frail elderly people. (S1O775) The Deputy Minister for Community Care (Iain Gray): Our monitoring of the implementation of \"Modernising Community Care: An Action Plan\" indicates good progress in many areas. As I said to Parliament this morning, I will be chairing a working group to take forward the views expressed at last month's seminar for health and local authority leaders on joint working in community care.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what progress it is making in building closer co-operation between local authorities and the national health service in the delivery of services to frail elderly people. (S1O775) The Deputy Minister for Community Care (Iain Gray): Our monitoring of the implementation of \"Modernising Community Care: An Action Plan\" indicates good progress in many areas. As I said to Parliament this morning, I will be chairing a working group to take forward the views expressed at last month's seminar for health and local authority leaders on joint working in community care.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C713127", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27152, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 447.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27153, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 448.0, "QuestionHeading": "Textile Industry", "QuestionHeadingID": 27161, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 512.0, "DisplayOrder": 512.0, "ID": 27161, "ParentID": 27153 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 517.0, "ContributionID": 713127, "EditedText": "I want to associate myself with the successes in the textile industry. Despite the fact that there have been nearly 5,000 publicly announced job losses since 1997, there have been enormous successes in significant niche markets such as technical textiles, cashmere and leather. In January, I will chair a working group that aims to examine the cluster issue. Despite the problems that the industry faces, it has a huge future. We want to work with employees, trade unions, managers and owners to ensure that success is achieved not only in the Borders and Dumfries and Galloway, but the length and breadth of the country.", "EditedTextHTML": "I want to associate myself with the successes in the textile industry. Despite the fact that there have been nearly 5,000 publicly announced job losses since 1997, there have been enormous successes in significant niche markets such as technical textiles, cashmere and leather. In January, I will chair a working group that aims to examine the cluster issue. Despite the problems that the industry faces, it has a huge future. We want to work with employees, trade unions, managers and owners to ensure that success is achieved not only in the Borders and Dumfries and Galloway, but the length and breadth of the country.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2090E83P266C713128", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27152, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 447.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27153, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 448.0, "QuestionHeading": "Housing Associations", "QuestionHeadingID": 27162, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 519.0, "DisplayOrder": 519.0, "ID": 27162, "ParentID": 27153 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAllion, Mr John", "ID": 2090, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dundee East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John McAllion", "SpeakerDisplayName": "9. Mr John McAllion (Dundee East) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 520.0, "ContributionID": 713128, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what recent discussions it has had with the Scottish Federation of Housing Associations regarding the promotion of community-based and tenant-controlled housing associations. (S1O-765) The Minister for Communities (Ms Wendy Alexander): I met the council of the Scottish Federation of Housing Associations on 4 October. The SFHA is also an active participant in the Scottish housing interest group, which I met as recently as Monday of this week.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what recent discussions it has had with the Scottish Federation of Housing Associations regarding the promotion of community-based and tenant-controlled housing associations. (S1O-765) The Minister for Communities (Ms Wendy Alexander): I met the council of the Scottish Federation of Housing Associations on 4 October. The SFHA is also an active participant in the Scottish housing interest group, which I met as recently as Monday of this week.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C713141", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27152, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 447.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27153, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 448.0, "QuestionHeading": "School Closures (Cumbernauld)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27165, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 548.0, "DisplayOrder": 548.0, "ID": 27165, "ParentID": 27153 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "12. Andrew Wilson (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 549.0, "ContributionID": 713141, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what representations it has received on the issue of the proposed school closures in Cumbernauld. (S1O747)", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what representations it has received on the issue of the proposed school closures in Cumbernauld. (S1O747)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C713143", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27152, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 447.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27153, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 448.0, "QuestionHeading": "School Closures (Cumbernauld)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27165, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 548.0, "DisplayOrder": 548.0, "ID": 27165, "ParentID": 27153 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 553.0, "ContributionID": 713143, "EditedText": "Will the minister join me in congratulating the Cumbernauld Save Our Schools campaign on gathering 20,000 signatures? A huge proportion of the community is affected. Will he join me in condemning Councillor Charles Gray for dismissing, in the Cumbernauld News and Kilsyth Chronicle, that number of people as insignificant?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister join me in congratulating the Cumbernauld Save Our Schools campaign on gathering 20,000 signatures? A huge proportion of the community is affected. Will he join me in condemning Councillor Charles Gray for dismissing, in the Cumbernauld News and Kilsyth Chronicle, that number of people as insignificant?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C713145", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27152, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 447.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27153, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 448.0, "QuestionHeading": "School Closures (Cumbernauld)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27165, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 548.0, "DisplayOrder": 548.0, "ID": 27165, "ParentID": 27153 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 557.0, "ContributionID": 713145, "EditedText": "I remind the minister that he has a statutory duty with regard to school closures and that the member for the area is not opposing the school closures.", "EditedTextHTML": "I remind the minister that he has a statutory duty with regard to school closures and that the member for the area is not opposing the school closures.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2167E79P155C713148", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27152, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 447.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27153, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 448.0, "QuestionHeading": "School Closures (Cumbernauld)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27165, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 548.0, "DisplayOrder": 548.0, "ID": 27165, "ParentID": 27153 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Peacock, Peter", "ID": 2167, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Peter Peacock", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Peter Peacock: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 563.0, "ContributionID": 713148, "EditedText": "There are well-established procedures for receiving petitions. It would not be appropriate for us to do as Andrew Wilson suggests in these circumstances, as it is conceivable that one part of the exercise may ultimately be referred to ministers. However, the petition will be handed to us as a consequence of the exercise that Mr Wilson has talked about.", "EditedTextHTML": "There are well-established procedures for receiving petitions. It would not be appropriate for us to do as Andrew Wilson suggests in these circumstances, as it is conceivable that one part of the exercise may ultimately be referred to ministers. However, the petition will be handed to us as a consequence of the exercise that Mr Wilson has talked about.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2117E79P104C713156", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27152, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 447.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27153, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 448.0, "QuestionHeading": "NHS Equipment", "QuestionHeadingID": 27167, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 578.0, "DisplayOrder": 578.0, "ID": 27167, "ParentID": 27153 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macdonald, Lewis", "ID": 2117, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lewis Macdonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Lewis Macdonald: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 581.0, "ContributionID": 713156, "EditedText": "I thank the minister for her answer. However, does she accept that there are many demands on the capital budgets of acute trusts, as is the case with Aberdeen royal infirmary, which is in my constituency? Will she consider whether longer-term budget planning might assist those trusts to plan for the replacement of equipment and to meet priority targets in equipment-intensive areas, such as coronary heart care and cancer?", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the minister for her answer. However, does she accept that there are many demands on the capital budgets of acute trusts, as is the case with Aberdeen royal infirmary, which is in my constituency? Will she consider whether longer-term budget planning might assist those trusts to plan for the replacement of equipment and to meet priority targets in equipment-intensive areas, such as coronary heart care and cancer?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C713157", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27152, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 447.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27153, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 448.0, "QuestionHeading": "NHS Equipment", "QuestionHeadingID": 27167, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 578.0, "DisplayOrder": 578.0, "ID": 27167, "ParentID": 27153 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 583.0, "ContributionID": 713157, "EditedText": "I am always happy to have constructive discussions with local health authorities and with MSPs about the ways in which we can become more effective in delivering high- quality health services and in ensuring that resources spent within the health service are utilised efficiently. I am pleased that we are doing that within the context of record levels of investment in our health service so that, as we move into a new millennium, we can provide modern, effective health services for people across Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am always happy to have constructive discussions with local health authorities and with MSPs about the ways in which we can become more effective in delivering high- quality health services and in ensuring that resources spent within the health service are utilised efficiently. I am pleased that we are doing that within the context of record levels of investment in our health service so that, as we move into a new millennium, we can provide modern, effective health services for people across Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.7013603+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2033E106P139C713170", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27152, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 447.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27153, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 448.0, "QuestionHeading": "Disabled People", "QuestionHeadingID": 27171, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 608.0, "DisplayOrder": 608.0, "ID": 27171, "ParentID": 27153 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gray, Iain", "ID": 2033, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Pentlands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Iain Gray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Iain Gray: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 613.0, "ContributionID": 713170, "EditedText": "We have covered this ground before. The grant-aided expenditure for social work services in Scotland has increased since last year by £51.3 million, or 4.9 per cent. It will increase next year and the following year as well. Mr Matheson has an interest in these matters as a result of his previous profession. He will know that important initiatives can be taken on the way in which those resources are spent. For example, there is the carers strategy initiative, which was announced last week; the review of direct payments, which makes it possible for better and more flexible services to be provided for people with disability; and the Scottish accessible information forum report, which was published last week. Resources are increasing, but we can do more to spend them better.", "EditedTextHTML": "We have covered this ground before. The grant-aided expenditure for social work services in Scotland has increased since last year by £51.3 million, or 4.9 per cent. It will increase next year and the following year as well.

Mr Matheson has an interest in these matters as a result of his previous profession. He will know that important initiatives can be taken on the way in which those resources are spent. For example,

there is the carers strategy initiative, which was announced last week; the review of direct payments, which makes it possible for better and more flexible services to be provided for people with disability; and the Scottish accessible information forum report, which was published last week. Resources are increasing, but we can do more to spend them better.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4825845+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C713171", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27152, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 447.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27153, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 448.0, "QuestionHeading": "Houses in Multiple Occupancy", "QuestionHeadingID": 27172, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 615.0, "DisplayOrder": 615.0, "ID": 27172, "ParentID": 27153 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "19. Patricia Ferguson (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 616.0, "ContributionID": 713171, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it considers that the introduction of mandatory licensing of houses in multiple occupancy will ensure that such accommodation is safe and does not in itself present a health and safety risk to those occupying it. (S1O-777) The Minister for Communities (Ms Wendy Alexander): Yes. Local authorities will be able to refuse licences to premises that fail to meet the required standards. Operating a house in multiple occupancy without a licence will now be a criminal offence.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it considers that the introduction of mandatory licensing of houses in multiple occupancy will ensure that such accommodation is safe and does not in itself present a health and safety risk to those occupying it. (S1O-777) The Minister for Communities (Ms Wendy Alexander): Yes. Local authorities will be able to refuse licences to premises that fail to meet the required standards. Operating a house in multiple occupancy without a licence will now be a criminal offence.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4825845+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1805E13P109C713174", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27152, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 447.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27153, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 448.0, "QuestionHeading": "Closed-circuit Television", "QuestionHeadingID": 27173, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 622.0, "DisplayOrder": 622.0, "ID": 27173, "ParentID": 27153 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Whitefield, Karen", "ID": 1805, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Airdrie and Shotts" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Karen Whitefield", "SpeakerDisplayName": "20. Karen Whitefield (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 623.0, "ContributionID": 713174, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has to continue to provide funding to local authorities so that they can install CCTV systems within communities suffering from high levels of crime. (S1O-737) The Deputy Minister for Justice (Angus MacKay): On 11 August, I announced that £3 million would be made available in the financial year 2000-01 to fund the new \"Make Our Communities Safer\" challenge competition. Of that money, £1.5 million will be allocated to projects that address wider community safety issues. The other half will fund CCTV projects on the same basis as the previous Scottish Office challenge competition.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has to continue to provide funding to local authorities so that they can install CCTV systems within communities suffering from high levels of crime. (S1O-737) The Deputy Minister for Justice (Angus MacKay): On 11 August, I announced that £3 million would be made available in the financial year 2000-01 to fund the new \"Make Our Communities Safer\" challenge competition. Of that money, £1.5 million will be allocated to projects that address wider community safety issues. The other half will fund CCTV projects on the same basis as the previous Scottish Office challenge competition.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4825845+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C713178", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27174, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 629.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27175, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 630.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27176, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 631.0, "DisplayOrder": 631.0, "ID": 27176, "ParentID": 27175 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister (Donald Dewar): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 634.0, "ContributionID": 713178, "EditedText": "I met the Secretary of State for Scotland yesterday; my answer does not need to be cryptic on this occasion because the matters that we discussed were widely reported.", "EditedTextHTML": "I met the Secretary of State for Scotland yesterday; my answer does not need to be cryptic on this occasion because the matters that we discussed were widely reported.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4825845+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C713180", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27174, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 629.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27175, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 630.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27176, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 631.0, "DisplayOrder": 631.0, "ID": 27176, "ParentID": 27175 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 638.0, "ContributionID": 713180, "EditedText": "John Swinney knows well that, over the period of the comprehensive spending review, there have been real and substantial increases in health service spending. The cumulative total of that spending is about £1.8 billion. The process to which I think Mr Swinney referred is part of the economic platform that has allowed us to produce economic growth. In 1996, Glasgow had an unemployment claimant count of more than 34,000—it is now 23,000. What is depressing is that the statistics from Bristol are a mark of the challenge and of the problem that we inherited. All the figures are pre1995. I want to strike a hopeful note—there is a serious problem, but not one about which we should feel despair. Over the past decade, deaths from coronary heart disease have fallen by 32.3 per cent. Cancer deaths are down by 10.3 per cent and stroke deaths are down by 29.7 per cent. In all those areas, Glasgow has done better than the rest of Scotland—as we would hope it would, as it starts from a higher base. Mr Swinney will also know that the £850 million that was given this year to Greater Glasgow Health Board represents a substantial £100 per capita more than the Scottish average. I will give one more example, and I apologise for taking a minute to do so, Sir David. Mr Swinney knows that there is a spirited debate at the moment—particularly in the Health and Community Care Committee—about the Arbuthnott report. That report is a way of ensuring that we examine deprivation factors, the causes of deprivation and the costs of doing something about it. I hope that we will have strong support from all parts of the chamber for such a constructive attempt to deal with the inherited problems that have been pointed to in that report from Bristol.", "EditedTextHTML": "John Swinney knows well that, over the period of the comprehensive spending review, there have been real and substantial increases in health service spending. The cumulative total of that spending is about £1.8 billion. The process to which I think Mr Swinney referred is part of the economic platform that has allowed us to produce economic growth.

In 1996, Glasgow had an unemployment claimant count of more than 34,000—it is now 23,000. What is depressing is that the statistics from Bristol are a mark of the challenge and of the problem that we inherited. All the figures are pre1995. I want to strike a hopeful note—there is a serious problem, but not one about which we should feel despair. Over the past decade, deaths from coronary heart disease have fallen by 32.3 per cent. Cancer deaths are down by 10.3 per cent and stroke deaths are down by 29.7 per cent. In all those areas, Glasgow has done better than the rest of Scotland—as we would hope it would, as it starts from a higher base. Mr Swinney will also know that the £850 million that was given this year to Greater Glasgow Health Board represents a substantial £100 per capita more than the Scottish average.

I will give one more example, and I apologise for taking a minute to do so, Sir David. Mr Swinney knows that there is a spirited debate at the moment—particularly in the Health and Community Care Committee—about the Arbuthnott report. That report is a way of ensuring that we examine deprivation factors, the causes of deprivation and the costs of doing something about it. I hope that we will have strong support from all parts of the chamber for such a constructive attempt to deal with the inherited problems that have been pointed to in that report from Bristol.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4825845+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C713187", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27174, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 629.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27175, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 630.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27176, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 631.0, "DisplayOrder": 631.0, "ID": 27176, "ParentID": 27175 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 652.0, "ContributionID": 713187, "EditedText": "Could the First Minister tell us whether his discussion with the Secretary of State for Scotland included the comments of the Government's transport adviser, Professor David Begg, who backed my call for extra money raised from fuel taxes to be ring-fenced for transport improvements in Scotland, as it will be in England? In the light of Professor Begg's comments, would the First Minister like to reconsider the answer that he gave to me on that subject last week and give the same guarantee to motorists in Scotland that will apply to motorists in the rest of the United Kingdom?", "EditedTextHTML": "Could the First Minister tell us whether his discussion with the Secretary of State for Scotland included the comments of the Government's transport adviser, Professor David Begg, who backed my call for extra money raised from fuel taxes to be ring-fenced for transport improvements in Scotland, as it will be in England? In the light of Professor Begg's comments, would the First Minister like to reconsider the answer that he gave to me on that subject last week and give the same guarantee to motorists in Scotland that will apply to motorists in the rest of the United Kingdom?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4825845+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C713188", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27174, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 629.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27175, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 630.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27176, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 631.0, "DisplayOrder": 631.0, "ID": 27176, "ParentID": 27175 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 654.0, "ContributionID": 713188, "EditedText": "I made it clear that while we give a very high priority to infrastructure and transport needs in Scotland—and as David McLetchie is a late convert to devolution and therefore, I hope, an enthusiastic one, I hope that he will understand this—I did not want to suggest that ring-fencing in another part of the country be automatically transferred to the Scottish Parliament. We have a right to look at our own spending priorities in our own time, and that is what we will do. I hope—I always live in hope— that he will feel able to support us when we reach our decisions.", "EditedTextHTML": "I made it clear that while we give a very high priority to infrastructure and transport needs in Scotland—and as David McLetchie is a late convert to devolution and therefore, I hope, an enthusiastic one, I hope that he will understand this—I did not want to suggest that ring-fencing in another part of the country be automatically transferred to the Scottish Parliament. We have a right to look at our own spending priorities in our own time, and that is what we will do. I hope—I always live in hope— that he will feel able to support us when we reach our decisions.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4825845+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C713189", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27174, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 629.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27175, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 630.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27176, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 631.0, "DisplayOrder": 631.0, "ID": 27176, "ParentID": 27175 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 656.0, "ContributionID": 713189, "EditedText": "I thank the First Minister for his answer, which will be met with disappointment by Scotland's motorists. In relation to disappointed motorists, will he express to the secretary of state and to the chancellor the strong opposition in Scotland to imposing VAT on bridge tolls and ensure that the Government resists that measure? In the event of a failure of the Government to counter that European Union measure, will the First Minister confirm the comments of an anonymous Scottish Executive spokeswoman at the weekend, that tolls on the Skye bridge will not rise to reflect the VAT element, and will he give the same commitment on the Forth, Tay and Erskine bridges?", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the First Minister for his answer, which will be met with disappointment by Scotland's motorists. In relation to disappointed motorists, will he express to the secretary of state and to the chancellor the strong opposition in Scotland to imposing VAT on bridge tolls and ensure that the Government resists that measure? In the event of a failure of the Government to counter that European Union measure, will the First Minister confirm the comments of an anonymous Scottish Executive spokeswoman at the weekend, that tolls on the Skye bridge will not rise to reflect the VAT element, and will he give the same commitment on the Forth, Tay and Erskine bridges?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4825845+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C713190", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27174, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 629.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27175, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 630.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27176, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 631.0, "DisplayOrder": 631.0, "ID": 27176, "ParentID": 27175 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 658.0, "ContributionID": 713190, "EditedText": "That is a quite extraordinary question. As David McLetchie knows, that is a proposal from the European Union and a legal ruling is being sought that VAT, as a matter of European Union law, must be imposed on tolls. The United Kingdom Government and the Scottish Executive are not happy with that proposal. However, if he is inviting me to say that if there is a lawful direction on it, we will defy the law, I will not give that guarantee. We are spending over £700,000 a year to keep down Skye bridge charges for regular users—I think that the charge is £1.40 at the moment. That freeze was one of the agreements of our partnership with the Liberal Democrats and will increase our contribution quite considerably over the coming years. We have done what we promised and I hope that we will get some—I will not say that; I was going to ask for gratitude, but that might be asking too much.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is a quite extraordinary question. As David McLetchie knows, that is a proposal from the European Union and a legal ruling is being sought that VAT, as a matter of European Union law, must be imposed on tolls. The United Kingdom Government and the Scottish Executive are not happy with that proposal. However, if he is inviting me to say that if there is a lawful direction on it, we will defy the law, I will not give that guarantee.

We are spending over £700,000 a year to keep down Skye bridge charges for regular users—I think that the charge is £1.40 at the moment. That freeze was one of the agreements of our partnership with the Liberal Democrats and will increase our contribution quite considerably over the coming years. We have done what we promised and I hope that we will get some—I will not say that; I was going to ask for gratitude, but that might be asking too much.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4825845+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C713194", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27174, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 629.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27175, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 630.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27176, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 631.0, "DisplayOrder": 631.0, "ID": 27176, "ParentID": 27175 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 666.0, "ContributionID": 713194, "EditedText": "I cannot anticipate future spending decisions but, as the member knows, Sarah Boyack made a statement recently in which she outlined a number of important developments, of which the M77 was perhaps the most substantial. Those initiatives, including some in Highland areas, were widely welcomed. I have made no bones about the fact that talking about priorities means prioritisation. We have found an extra £35 million for the roads budget, as against what had previously been anticipated. As the opportunity arises, we will continue to find resources. However, I cannot anticipate decisions.", "EditedTextHTML": "I cannot anticipate future spending decisions but, as the member knows, Sarah Boyack made a statement recently in which she outlined a number of important developments, of which the M77 was perhaps the most substantial. Those initiatives, including some in Highland areas, were widely welcomed.

I have made no bones about the fact that talking about priorities means prioritisation. We have found an extra £35 million for the roads budget, as

against what had previously been anticipated. As the opportunity arises, we will continue to find resources. However, I cannot anticipate decisions.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4825845+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1865E219P509C713199", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27174, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 629.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27175, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 630.0, "QuestionHeading": "Careers Service", "QuestionHeadingID": 27177, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 668.0, "DisplayOrder": 668.0, "ID": 27177, "ParentID": 27175 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "White, Sandra", "ID": 1865, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sandra White", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Sandra White (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 677.0, "ContributionID": 713199, "EditedText": "Yes, Presiding Officer. Obviously, your microphone was not working, as I could not hear you.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes, Presiding Officer. Obviously, your microphone was not working, as I could not hear you.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4825845+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1865E219P509C713201", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27174, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 629.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27175, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 630.0, "QuestionHeading": "Careers Service", "QuestionHeadingID": 27177, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 668.0, "DisplayOrder": 668.0, "ID": 27177, "ParentID": 27175 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "White, Sandra", "ID": 1865, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sandra White", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms White: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 681.0, "ContributionID": 713201, "EditedText": "I want to follow up on Mr McLeish's previous answer. I have lodged various written questions about the careers service, particularly in Glasgow, and I welcome the minister's comments about 2001. However, can he give this chamber a guarantee that the future of the careers service will be considered? Perhaps he will take note of the Welsh model, which will come into force in April 2001. The National Assembly for Wales has recommended that the careers service in Wales be funded directly by the National Assembly. Can the minister guarantee that he will consider the possibility of the careers service in Scotland being funded by this Parliament, not just now but after 2001?", "EditedTextHTML": "I want to follow up on Mr McLeish's previous answer. I have lodged various written questions about the careers service, particularly in Glasgow, and I welcome the minister's comments about 2001. However, can he give this chamber a guarantee that the future of the careers service will be considered? Perhaps he will take note of the Welsh model, which will come into force in April 2001. The National Assembly for Wales has recommended that the careers service in Wales be funded directly by the National Assembly. Can the minister guarantee that he will consider the possibility of the careers service in Scotland being funded by this Parliament, not just now but after 2001?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4825845+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C713202", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27174, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 629.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27175, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 630.0, "QuestionHeading": "Careers Service", "QuestionHeadingID": 27177, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 668.0, "DisplayOrder": 668.0, "ID": 27177, "ParentID": 27175 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 683.0, "ContributionID": 713202, "EditedText": "I am considering a more important policy from Wales, on adult guidance. The careers service review will not examine ownership as that is not an issue in Scotland—it will remain a public service matter. I want a thorough review of all responsibilities and the ways in which we spend money on specific groups. At the end of the day, we want a better and more effective service, of which we can be proud. I hope that the committee that is chaired by John Swinney will participate in that review. We will have a partnership in this Parliament to ensure that every possible support is given to the review and its implementation in every part of the country.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am considering a more important policy from Wales, on adult guidance.

The careers service review will not examine ownership as that is not an issue in Scotland—it will remain a public service matter. I want a thorough review of all responsibilities and the ways in which we spend money on specific groups. At the end of the day, we want a better and more effective service, of which we can be proud. I hope that the committee that is chaired by John Swinney will participate in that review. We will have a partnership in this Parliament to ensure that every possible support is given to the review and its implementation in every part of the country.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4825845+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713205", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Equalities", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27178, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 685.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 685.0, "ID": 27178, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 691.0, "ContributionID": 713205, "EditedText": "Order—I apologise to Jackie Baillie. Members must not conduct conversations in the chamber. We are starting a debate.", "EditedTextHTML": "Order—I apologise to Jackie Baillie. Members must not conduct conversations in the chamber. We are starting a debate.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4825845+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2066E64P88C713213", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Equalities", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27178, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 685.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 685.0, "ID": 27178, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McGrigor, Jamie", "ID": 2066, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie McGrigor", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McGrigor: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 709.0, "ContributionID": 713213, "EditedText": "Come on.", "EditedTextHTML": "Come on.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4825845+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2080E130P217C713216", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Equalities", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27178, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 685.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 685.0, "ID": 27178, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lamont, Johann", "ID": 2080, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Pollok" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Johann Lamont", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Johann Lamont (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 715.0, "ContributionID": 713216, "EditedText": "I wonder whether Mr McGrigor might include women in his delightful picture of togetherness.", "EditedTextHTML": "I wonder whether Mr McGrigor might include women in his delightful picture of togetherness.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4825845+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2066E64P88C713217", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Equalities", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27178, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 685.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 685.0, "ID": 27178, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McGrigor, Jamie", "ID": 2066, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie McGrigor", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McGrigor: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 717.0, "ContributionID": 713217, "EditedText": "Of course I include women in that. Interruption. I am referring to women and men at the same time. We can achieve the dream, not by\"drinking from the cup of bitterness\", but by creating a society that treats everyone as equal. I move amendment S1M-334.1, to leave out from \"and to\" to end and insert: \"regardless of race, sex, class or faith and further recognises that this will not be achieved by positive discrimination or politically correct strategies which label people as categories, but by a commitment to limited government and enhanced personal freedom.\"", "EditedTextHTML": "Of course I include women in that. [Interruption.] I am referring to women and men at the same time.

We can achieve the dream, not by

\"drinking from the cup of bitterness\", but by creating a society that treats everyone as equal.

I move amendment S1M-334.1, to leave out from \"and to\" to end and insert:

\"regardless of race, sex, class or faith and further recognises that this will not be achieved by positive discrimination or politically correct strategies which label people as categories, but by a commitment to limited government and enhanced personal freedom.\"

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4825845+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2080E130P217C713233", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Equalities", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27178, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 685.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 685.0, "ID": 27178, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lamont, Johann", "ID": 2080, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Pollok" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Johann Lamont", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Johann Lamont: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 756.0, "ContributionID": 713233, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4825845+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2080E130P217C713235", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Equalities", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27178, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 685.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 685.0, "ID": 27178, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lamont, Johann", "ID": 2080, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Pollok" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Johann Lamont", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Johann Lamont: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 760.0, "ContributionID": 713235, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4825845+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1807E84P267C713223", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Equalities", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27178, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 685.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 685.0, "ID": 27178, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Maclean, Kate", "ID": 1807, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dundee West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kate Maclean", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Kate MacLean: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 733.0, "ContributionID": 713223, "EditedText": "Presiding Officer, I have only a short period of time and, unless Mr McGrigor has a question, I would prefer to finish my speech.", "EditedTextHTML": "Presiding Officer, I have only a short period of time and, unless Mr McGrigor has a question, I would prefer to finish my speech.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1807E84P267C713225", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Equalities", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27178, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 685.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 685.0, "ID": 27178, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Maclean, Kate", "ID": 1807, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dundee West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kate Maclean", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Kate MacLean: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 737.0, "ContributionID": 713225, "EditedText": "Disabled people should be able to participate fully in Scottish civic life. Accessible formats such as Braille and audio cassettes should be made available as a matter of course to ensure equal access to the democratic process. Access to the Parliament's buildings, including MSPs' offices, must be considered. I can meet constituents in an area that is wheelchair accessible and has an induction loop, but the office where my staff work is not fully accessible. The Parliament must ensure that MSPs are able to resource suitable premises and we must try to improve access to our temporary parliamentary premises.", "EditedTextHTML": "Disabled people should be able to participate fully in Scottish civic life. Accessible formats such as Braille and audio cassettes should be made available as a matter of course to ensure equal access to the democratic process. Access to the Parliament's buildings, including MSPs' offices, must be considered. I can meet constituents in an area that is wheelchair accessible and has an induction loop, but the office where my staff work is not fully accessible. The Parliament must ensure that MSPs are able to resource suitable premises and we must try to improve access to our temporary parliamentary

premises.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2118E157P454C713236", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Equalities", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27178, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 685.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 685.0, "ID": 27178, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Quinan, Mr Lloyd", "ID": 2118, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lloyd Quinan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Quinan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 762.0, "ContributionID": 713236, "EditedText": "No, thank you.The large insurance companies are always interested in employing staff with previous experience. As that letter went on to say, it would appear \"that these two age groups are being discriminated against for no reason other than that they are Scottish, despite the fact that they could be doing identical work to their English colleagues. I feel that the current situation is iniquitous and puts the people in these categories at a distinct disadvantage compared to their English counterparts.\" I hope that the Minister for Communities and the Deputy Minister for Communities will consider addressing those inequalities. Again, I realise that this may not be entirely within the Executive's competence, but if we are genuinely committed to equal opportunities, we will ensure that there is a desperately needed review of the Scottish Legal Aid Board, which has denied legal aid to a couple from Alexandria, Jim and Anne Bollan—Mrs Baillie knows them well. The Minister for Justice has no competence to review or alter decisions made by the Scottish Legal Aid Board, but it has been suggested many times that the board operates in a way that discriminates against people from poor backgrounds. I hope that the ministers will address some of the issues raised by the SNP. It would be the first time that they have listened and then acted, but I hope that they will. I support the amendment.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, thank you.

The large insurance companies are always interested in employing staff with previous experience. As that letter went on to say, it would appear

\"that these two age groups are being discriminated against for no reason other than that they are Scottish, despite the fact that they could be doing identical work to their English colleagues. I feel that the current situation is iniquitous and puts the people in these categories at a distinct disadvantage compared to their English counterparts.\"

I hope that the Minister for Communities and the Deputy Minister for Communities will consider addressing those inequalities.

Again, I realise that this may not be entirely within the Executive's competence, but if we are genuinely committed to equal opportunities, we will ensure that there is a desperately needed review of the Scottish Legal Aid Board, which has denied legal aid to a couple from Alexandria, Jim and Anne Bollan—Mrs Baillie knows them well. The Minister for Justice has no competence to review or alter decisions made by the Scottish Legal Aid Board, but it has been suggested many times that the board operates in a way that discriminates against people from poor backgrounds.

I hope that the ministers will address some of the issues raised by the SNP. It would be the first time that they have listened and then acted, but I hope that they will. I support the amendment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713237", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Equalities", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27178, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 685.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 685.0, "ID": 27178, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 764.0, "ContributionID": 713237, "EditedText": "Malcolm Chisholm, can I give you two minutes?", "EditedTextHTML": "

Malcolm Chisholm, can I give you two minutes?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2123E103P242C713238", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Equalities", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27178, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 685.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 685.0, "ID": 27178, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Chisholm, Malcolm", "ID": 2123, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh North and Leith" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Malcolm Chisholm", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 767.0, "ContributionID": 713238, "EditedText": "Two minutes? Right—", "EditedTextHTML": "Two minutes? Right—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2105E44P74C713245", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Equalities", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27178, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 685.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 685.0, "ID": 27178, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harding, Mr Keith", "ID": 2105, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Harding", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Keith Harding (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 784.0, "ContributionID": 713245, "EditedText": "Three of our members spoke this morning.", "EditedTextHTML": "Three of our members spoke this morning.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2234E7P20C713246", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Equalities", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27178, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 685.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 685.0, "ID": 27178, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Aitken, Bill", "ID": 2234, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bill Aitken", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bill Aitken: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 786.0, "ContributionID": 713246, "EditedText": "On a point of order, Presiding Officer.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order, Presiding Officer.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713247", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Equalities", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27178, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 685.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 685.0, "ID": 27178, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 788.0, "ContributionID": 713247, "EditedText": "I am sure that it is not a point of order, Mr Aitken.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sure that it is not a point of order, Mr Aitken.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C713258", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Equalities", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27178, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 685.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 685.0, "ID": 27178, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 811.0, "ContributionID": 713258, "EditedText": "I will finish the substance of the point. On all those issues, the challenge to us is to change attitudes as well as to change the law. If members consider our history, it shows that society changes only when people act together to bring about change. There has been an awful lot of talk today about what Westminster should do and what has happened in England. We should look to ourselves and our own history. The divine right of kings was superseded by the rights of men. That gave way to agitation against slavery and was the parent in the fight against apartheid, campaigns for the right to vote for women and debates today on children's rights, gay rights and the disabled. In every age, it has been about progressive forces combining to change attitudes first and then the law. What we are talking about today is changing attitudes. If members look back at those who in previous generations were condemned for political correctness, they were in fact one step ahead of the public opinion of the day. That is the opportunity and the invitation that awaits this Parliament. The right to vote, family allowances, the right to equal pay, the right to civil rights: those were all seen as at the cutting edge in their time and are now regarded as fundamental tenets of a civilised society. Unless we take the opportunity today for ourselves, rather than blame somebody else, we are saying that the new Scotland will be no better than the old Scotland. Inequality persists in Scotland. We have heard about the pay gap. Racial incidents in Scotland are up from 662 five years ago, to more than 1,000 last year. That is a mark of shame on us all. Homophobic bullying continues and the disabled still look for recognition. What lies at the core of the strategy before ustoday is basic human rights. Too often, the legislation is there. Consultation and mainstreaming matter, not because that is bland or self-congratulatory, but because it is a challenge to ourselves to change the way in which we do things.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will finish the substance of the point. On all those issues, the challenge to us is to change attitudes as well as to change the law.

If members consider our history, it shows that society changes only when people act together to bring about change. There has been an awful lot of talk today about what Westminster should do and what has happened in England. We should look to ourselves and our own history. The divine right of kings was superseded by the rights of men. That gave way to agitation against slavery and was the parent in the fight against apartheid, campaigns for the right to vote for women and debates today on children's rights, gay rights and the disabled. In every age, it has been about progressive forces combining to change attitudes first and then the law. What we are talking about today is changing attitudes.

If members look back at those who in previous generations were condemned for political correctness, they were in fact one step ahead of the public opinion of the day. That is the opportunity and the invitation that awaits this Parliament. The right to vote, family allowances, the right to equal pay, the right to civil rights: those were all seen as at the cutting edge in their time and are now regarded as fundamental tenets of a civilised society. Unless we take the opportunity today for ourselves, rather than blame somebody else, we are saying that the new Scotland will be no better than the old Scotland.

Inequality persists in Scotland. We have heard about the pay gap. Racial incidents in Scotland are up from 662 five years ago, to more than 1,000 last year. That is a mark of shame on us all. Homophobic bullying continues and the disabled still look for recognition.

What lies at the core of the strategy before us

today is basic human rights. Too often, the legislation is there. Consultation and mainstreaming matter, not because that is bland or self-congratulatory, but because it is a challenge to ourselves to change the way in which we do things.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C713260", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Equalities", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27178, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 685.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 685.0, "ID": 27178, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 815.0, "ContributionID": 713260, "EditedText": "Fiona Hyslop talked about the failings of the past treatment of Chilean and Ugandan refugees in this country. I invite her to come with me to Renfrewshire and see the outstanding practice in the treatment of Kosovan refugees. There is nothing bland about local authorities and this Executive working together to make specialist facilities available to disabled refugees from Kosovo. This gets to the heart of the matter because, when it comes to asylum and refugees, we will fail if we say that the people of Kent should be uniquely responsible for floods of asylum seekers or refugees when there is a crisis in another part of the world and that we in Scotland are prepared to stand aside and take no responsibility in dealing with those issues. I, for one, do not want to stand aside.", "EditedTextHTML": "Fiona Hyslop talked about the failings of the past treatment of Chilean and Ugandan refugees in this country. I invite her to come with me to Renfrewshire and see the outstanding practice in the treatment of Kosovan refugees. There is nothing bland about local authorities and this Executive working together to make specialist facilities available to disabled refugees from Kosovo.

This gets to the heart of the matter because, when it comes to asylum and refugees, we will fail if we say that the people of Kent should be uniquely responsible for floods of asylum seekers or refugees when there is a crisis in another part of the world and that we in Scotland are prepared to stand aside and take no responsibility in dealing with those issues. I, for one, do not want to stand aside.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713280", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27179, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 821.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 821.0, "ID": 27179, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 849.0, "ContributionID": 713280, "EditedText": "The Local Government Committee to consider The Non- domestic Rating Contributions (Scotland) Amendment Regulations 1999, SSI 1999/153.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Local Government Committee to consider The Non- domestic Rating Contributions (Scotland) Amendment Regulations 1999, SSI 1999/153.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C713262", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Equalities", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27178, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 685.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 685.0, "ID": 27178, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 819.0, "ContributionID": 713262, "EditedText": "Let me continue. I will take more interventions in a moment. This is the essence of my point. I will happily take interventions after I have made it. Equality is not something that stops at national boundaries. Consider the experience of women, which is common across the UK. Violence against women is common across the globe. Roseanna Cunningham suggested that the decision to reserve legislation in this area was small-minded cowardice. It was a principled decision to say that we did not want to go down the route of differential pay levels north and south of the border or separate laws on sex discrimination or disability. The problem with the SNP's amendment is that it is an invitation for us to condemn the constitutional arrangements that the people of Scotland have chosen. For the SNP to claim that Scotland is unable to promote equal opportunities is not true. There is a battle to be won against institutional racism, discrimination against women and the treatment of the disabled in our schools. The consequence of the SNP's amendment— should we pass it today—would be that we, as the first Scottish Parliament for 300 years, would have no strategy or programme for moving forward on equality. The amendment offers no concrete suggestion; it merely laments the fact that the SNP lost the argument. It offers nothing to take us forward. So, today—the first time that we have debated the subject—I invite the SNP to join us in what we can do, rather than lamenting what we cannot do. I urge the Tories not to succumb to the charge of political correctness. If the Tories are prepared to join us in a dialogue, they are on the right side in saying that the new Scotland can be better than the old. The truth is that we are building a multinational Britain. Look at the developments of the past week. We are building a multi-ethnic, multiracial Britain. We look forward to new legislation in the coming days. The invitation, to all of us, is to be genuinely involved in leading the debate by the practice that we show here. The new Scotland can be a better place than the old Scotland. Our responsibility starts here, in the chamber. We commend—and we urge members to support—the motion today.", "EditedTextHTML": "Let me continue. I will take more interventions in a moment. This is the essence of my point. I will happily take interventions after I have made it.

Equality is not something that stops at national boundaries. Consider the experience of women, which is common across the UK. Violence against women is common across the globe. Roseanna Cunningham suggested that the decision to reserve legislation in this area was small-minded cowardice. It was a principled decision to say that we did not want to go down the route of differential pay levels north and south of the border or separate laws on sex discrimination or disability.

The problem with the SNP's amendment is that it is an invitation for us to condemn the constitutional arrangements that the people of Scotland have chosen. For the SNP to claim that Scotland is unable to promote equal opportunities is not true. There is a battle to be won against institutional racism, discrimination against women and the treatment of the disabled in our schools.

The consequence of the SNP's amendment— should we pass it today—would be that we, as the first Scottish Parliament for 300 years, would have no strategy or programme for moving forward on equality. The amendment offers no concrete suggestion; it merely laments the fact that the SNP lost the argument. It offers nothing to take us forward. So, today—the first time that we have debated the subject—I invite the SNP to join us in what we can do, rather than lamenting what we cannot do.

I urge the Tories not to succumb to the charge of political correctness. If the Tories are prepared to join us in a dialogue, they are on the right side in saying that the new Scotland can be better than the old.

The truth is that we are building a multinational Britain. Look at the developments of the past week. We are building a multi-ethnic, multiracial Britain. We look forward to new legislation in the coming days. The invitation, to all of us, is to be genuinely involved in leading the debate by the practice that we show here. The new Scotland can be a better place than the old Scotland. Our responsibility starts here, in the chamber. We commend—and we urge members to support—the motion today.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713264", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27179, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 821.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 821.0, "ID": 27179, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 825.0, "ContributionID": 713264, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713281", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27179, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 821.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 821.0, "ID": 27179, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 850.0, "ContributionID": 713281, "EditedText": "The fourth question is, that amendment S1M-334.2, in the name of Roseanna Cunningham, seeking to amend motion S1M-334, in the name of Jackie Baillie, on equalities, be agreed to. Are we agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "The fourth question is, that amendment S1M-334.2, in the name of Roseanna Cunningham, seeking to amend motion S1M-334, in the name of Jackie Baillie, on equalities, be agreed to. Are we agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713269", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27179, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 821.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 821.0, "ID": 27179, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 833.0, "ContributionID": 713269, "EditedText": "Amendment S1M-327.2 therefore falls. The second question is, that motion S1M-327, as amended, be agreed to. Are we agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment S1M-327.2 therefore falls.

The second question is, that motion S1M-327, as amended, be agreed to. Are we agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713270", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27179, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 821.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 821.0, "ID": 27179, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 835.0, "ContributionID": 713270, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713274", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27179, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 821.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 821.0, "ID": 27179, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 842.0, "ContributionID": 713274, "EditedText": "Motion, as amended, agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion, as amended, agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713276", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27179, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 821.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 821.0, "ID": 27179, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 844.0, "ContributionID": 713276, "EditedText": "That the Parliament notes the Executive's vision of a Scotland in which every older person matters and every person beyond working age has a decent quality of life, and welcomes the measures the Executive has already taken and has planned to support older people in line with its Programme for Government commitment to deliver person centred health and community care.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament notes the Executive's vision of a Scotland in which every older person matters and every person beyond working age has a decent quality of life, and welcomes the measures the Executive has already taken and has planned to support older people in line with its Programme for Government commitment to deliver person centred health and community care.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713277", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27179, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 821.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 821.0, "ID": 27179, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 845.0, "ContributionID": 713277, "EditedText": "The third question is, that motion S1M-339, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, on the designation of a lead committee, be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "The third question is, that motion S1M-339, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, on the designation of a lead committee, be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713284", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27179, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 821.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 821.0, "ID": 27179, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 856.0, "ContributionID": 713284, "EditedText": "FOR Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)AGAINST Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)(LD)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)

AGAINST

Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)
(LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713285", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27179, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 821.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 821.0, "ID": 27179, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 857.0, "ContributionID": 713285, "EditedText": "The result of the division is: For 31, Against 79, Abstentions 0.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result of the division is: For 31, Against 79, Abstentions 0.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713287", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27179, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 821.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 821.0, "ID": 27179, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 860.0, "ContributionID": 713287, "EditedText": "The fifth question is, that amendment S1M-334.1, in the name of Bill Aitken, be agreed to. Are we agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "The fifth question is, that amendment S1M-334.1, in the name of Bill Aitken, be agreed to. Are we agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713290", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27179, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 821.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 821.0, "ID": 27179, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 866.0, "ContributionID": 713290, "EditedText": "FOR Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)AGAINST Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)(LD)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)

AGAINST

Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)
(LD)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713294", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27179, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 821.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 821.0, "ID": 27179, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 872.0, "ContributionID": 713294, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C713300", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Freight and Passenger Terminal (Fife)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27180, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 881.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 881.0, "ID": 27180, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 882.0, "ContributionID": 713300, "EditedText": "We now move to members' business. I make my usual appeal for members to leave quickly and quietly. Members' business today is motion S1M-287, in the name of Bruce Crawford, on the promotion of a European freight and passenger terminal in Fife. More members have indicated a desire to speak than I had notice of, so I appeal for short speeches.", "EditedTextHTML": "We now move to members' business. I make my usual appeal for members to leave quickly and quietly. Members' business today is motion S1M-287, in the name of Bruce Crawford, on the promotion of a European freight and passenger terminal in Fife.

More members have indicated a desire to speak than I had notice of, so I appeal for short speeches.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713301", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Freight and Passenger Terminal (Fife)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27180, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 881.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 881.0, "ID": 27180, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 884.0, "ContributionID": 713301, "EditedText": "Motion debated,", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion debated,

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "C713302", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Freight and Passenger Terminal (Fife)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27180, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 881.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 881.0, "ID": 27180, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 885.0, "ContributionID": 713302, "EditedText": "That the Parliament notes that the EU is the destination for over half of Scottish exports and that Scotland has no direct ferry connection with Europe; believes that Scotland, being on the geographical periphery of the EU, has an urgent need for good transport links with continental Europe and that it is uneconomic, environmentally unsound and irrational that the majority of Scottish goods and freight traffic should have to pass through Hull or other southern ports to reach destinations in Europe, as this increases the volume of freight traffic on roads and impedes Scottish economic growth; recognises the need to develop a multimodal freight and passenger terminal to serve Scotland, and agrees the need to promote a freight and passenger ferry terminal at Rosyth, assist Fife Council, Fife Enterprise, Scottish industry and the Scottish Tourist Board in their efforts to secure this facility, encourage the fast tracking of all planning applications to allow the proposed facility to be established without delay, encourage the development of road and rail infrastructure links to ensure easy and safe passage for passengers and freight through the proposed terminal at Rosyth and ensure the availability of an appropriate level of freight facilities grant for the proposed ferry terminal at Rosyth.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament notes that the EU is the destination for over half of Scottish exports and that Scotland has no direct ferry connection with Europe; believes that Scotland, being on the geographical periphery of the EU, has an urgent need for good transport links with continental Europe and that it is uneconomic, environmentally unsound and irrational that the majority of Scottish goods and freight traffic should have to pass through Hull or other southern ports to reach destinations in Europe, as this increases the volume of freight traffic on roads and impedes Scottish economic growth; recognises the need to develop a multimodal freight and passenger terminal to serve Scotland, and agrees the need to promote a freight and passenger ferry terminal at Rosyth, assist Fife Council, Fife Enterprise, Scottish industry and the Scottish Tourist Board in their efforts to secure this facility, encourage the fast tracking of all planning applications to allow the proposed facility to be established without delay, encourage the development of road and rail infrastructure links to ensure easy and safe passage for passengers and freight through the proposed terminal at Rosyth and ensure the availability of an appropriate level of freight facilities grant for the proposed ferry terminal at Rosyth.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C713304", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Freight and Passenger Terminal (Fife)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27180, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 881.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 881.0, "ID": 27180, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Patricia Ferguson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 889.0, "ContributionID": 713304, "EditedText": "There are a great many members who want to speak in this evening's debate, so I must ask members to keep to a four-minute limit.", "EditedTextHTML": "There are a great many members who want to speak in this evening's debate, so I must ask members to keep to a four-minute limit.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2105E44P74C713307", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Freight and Passenger Terminal (Fife)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27180, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 881.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 881.0, "ID": 27180, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harding, Mr Keith", "ID": 2105, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Harding", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Keith Harding (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 898.0, "ContributionID": 713307, "EditedText": "I will be brief, unlike Mr Raffan, who spent half the time making political points. I congratulate Bruce Crawford on his motion. I believe that there is a pressing need for the facility, and I am happy to support the motion. Believe it or not, the creation of a ferry terminal formed a central part of the Scottish Conservatives' manifesto in the May elections.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will be brief, unlike Mr Raffan, who spent half the time making political points.

I congratulate Bruce Crawford on his motion. I believe that there is a pressing need for the facility, and I am happy to support the motion. Believe it or not, the creation of a ferry terminal formed a central part of the Scottish Conservatives' manifesto in the May elections.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2105E44P74C713314", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Freight and Passenger Terminal (Fife)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27180, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 881.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 881.0, "ID": 27180, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harding, Mr Keith", "ID": 2105, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Harding", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Harding: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 914.0, "ContributionID": 713314, "EditedText": "On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I do not think that I made those comments.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I do not think that I made those comments.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1876E194P490C713315", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Freight and Passenger Terminal (Fife)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27180, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 881.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 881.0, "ID": 27180, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Marwick, Tricia", "ID": 1876, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tricia Marwick", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tricia Marwick: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 916.0, "ContributionID": 713315, "EditedText": "I am terribly sorry, Keith—I meant Keith Raffan. I humbly apologise for that mistake. A European freight and passenger service from Scotland to Europe is a project that is viable, in demand and would be of long-term benefit to the area. Before the war, a ferry service operated from Scotland to the European continent. However, that service ceased when the boats were commandeered for the war effort and was never re-established. There is a demand for that service today. Once the stock of roll-on-roll-off ferries on order comes into operation, the capacity of UK ports will increase. It is estimated that within the next 10 years, the capacity for freight transport at UK ferry terminals will rise by 32 per cent. There is also a great demand for that service from passengers. Most passengers in Scotland would prefer to travel to a port within two hours of their home. As Bruce Crawford said, almost half the passengers who travel to Hull come from Scotland. It also works the other way. The local tourist board whole-heartedly supports the proposal, and estimates a massive influx of tourists directly into Scotland from the continent. In the current absence of a ferry link to Europe,there are two options for market access: a 500mile drive to channel ports or a 250-mile drive to Humber ports. However, current trends are making those journeys less viable—we have already talked about the difficulty for lorry drivers of having to remain within the legal time limits. The solution is a ferry terminal at Rosyth, which would reduce pressure on existing ports, increase accessibility to Scotland from the continent, increase tourism and create jobs. Rosyth is the ideal location for such a terminal. As a former naval base, Rosyth could offer riverside berths, a deep-water channel and direct access to trunk road and rail networks. Rosyth also has close at hand a plentiful supply of land for expansion. Most important, a terminal would create jobs in an area that has been devastated by job losses. In short, the whole of Scotland would benefit from the ferry port. Not only is there demand for the terminal, but it is viable. Rosyth is an ideal location for a ferry port and Fife could certainly use the extra jobs. However, if Rosyth is to be established, it must survive in the commercial environment. Rosyth will face a hard world. If the project at Rosyth is to be launched and is to sail, not sink, the Executive must provide support and assistance to ensure a safe landing for a Scottish sea route to the European continent. The Executive has the power at its fingertips to write the memo and to sign the cheques for freight facilities grants. That would launch the ferry from Rosyth with certainty of a fair-weather passage, rather than with a photo call, with a minister cracking open a bottle of champagne on a departing ferry and then leaving it to face unaided the storms of the wild commercial seas.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am terribly sorry, Keith—I meant Keith Raffan. I humbly apologise for that mistake.

A European freight and passenger service from Scotland to Europe is a project that is viable, in demand and would be of long-term benefit to the area. Before the war, a ferry service operated from Scotland to the European continent. However, that service ceased when the boats were commandeered for the war effort and was never re-established. There is a demand for that service today.

Once the stock of roll-on-roll-off ferries on order comes into operation, the capacity of UK ports will increase. It is estimated that within the next 10 years, the capacity for freight transport at UK ferry terminals will rise by 32 per cent.

There is also a great demand for that service from passengers. Most passengers in Scotland would prefer to travel to a port within two hours of their home. As Bruce Crawford said, almost half the passengers who travel to Hull come from Scotland. It also works the other way. The local tourist board whole-heartedly supports the proposal, and estimates a massive influx of tourists directly into Scotland from the continent.

In the current absence of a ferry link to Europe,

there are two options for market access: a 500mile drive to channel ports or a 250-mile drive to Humber ports. However, current trends are making those journeys less viable—we have already talked about the difficulty for lorry drivers of having to remain within the legal time limits.

The solution is a ferry terminal at Rosyth, which would reduce pressure on existing ports, increase accessibility to Scotland from the continent, increase tourism and create jobs. Rosyth is the ideal location for such a terminal. As a former naval base, Rosyth could offer riverside berths, a deep-water channel and direct access to trunk road and rail networks. Rosyth also has close at hand a plentiful supply of land for expansion. Most important, a terminal would create jobs in an area that has been devastated by job losses. In short, the whole of Scotland would benefit from the ferry port.

Not only is there demand for the terminal, but it is viable. Rosyth is an ideal location for a ferry port and Fife could certainly use the extra jobs. However, if Rosyth is to be established, it must survive in the commercial environment. Rosyth will face a hard world.

If the project at Rosyth is to be launched and is to sail, not sink, the Executive must provide support and assistance to ensure a safe landing for a Scottish sea route to the European continent. The Executive has the power at its fingertips to write the memo and to sign the cheques for freight facilities grants. That would launch the ferry from Rosyth with certainty of a fair-weather passage, rather than with a photo call, with a minister cracking open a bottle of champagne on a departing ferry and then leaving it to face unaided the storms of the wild commercial seas.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C713319", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Freight and Passenger Terminal (Fife)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27180, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 881.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 881.0, "ID": 27180, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 925.0, "ContributionID": 713319, "EditedText": "Will the minister come on to me now?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister come on to me now?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C713330", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Freight and Passenger Terminal (Fife)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27180, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 881.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 881.0, "ID": 27180, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 947.0, "ContributionID": 713330, "EditedText": "I am not sure what the minister was referring to, but no doubt she will—", "EditedTextHTML": "I am not sure what the minister was referring to, but no doubt she will—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C713336", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Freight and Passenger Terminal (Fife)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27180, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 881.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 881.0, "ID": 27180, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 959.0, "ContributionID": 713336, "EditedText": "It is an intervention.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is an intervention.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:18.4982082+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C713338", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Freight and Passenger Terminal (Fife)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27180, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 881.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 881.0, "ID": 27180, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fergus Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 963.0, "ContributionID": 713338, "EditedText": "I wish to ask who is on the steering group.", "EditedTextHTML": "I wish to ask who is on the steering group.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:00:18.3299743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C713131", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27152, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 447.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27153, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 448.0, "QuestionHeading": "Consultative Steering Group Report", "QuestionHeadingID": 27163, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 526.0, "DisplayOrder": 526.0, "ID": 27163, "ParentID": 27153 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "10. Nicola Sturgeon (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 527.0, "ContributionID": 713131, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it continues to endorse section 3.5, paragraph 5 of the report of the consultative steering group on the Scottish Parliament. (S1O-757)", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it continues to endorse section 3.5, paragraph 5 of the report of the consultative steering group on the Scottish Parliament. (S1O-757)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:00:03.7213861+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C713133", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27152, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 447.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27153, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 448.0, "QuestionHeading": "Consultative Steering Group Report", "QuestionHeadingID": 27163, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 526.0, "DisplayOrder": 526.0, "ID": 27163, "ParentID": 27153 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 531.0, "ContributionID": 713133, "EditedText": "I thank the minister for that very full answer. The section requires bills to complete a consultative process before being presented to Parliament. Will the minister comment on the adequacy of the consultation on the Executive's decision to include in the forthcoming education bill a section to abolish the Scottish Joint Negotiating Committee? In particular, will he comment on the fact that the consultation consisted of issuing a letter to nine organisations giving them 10 working days to comment not on the policy content, but on the technical provisions of the bill? I know the Executive's arguments in favour of abolishing the SJNC—", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the minister for that very full answer. The section requires bills to complete a consultative process before being presented to Parliament. Will the minister comment on the adequacy of the consultation on the Executive's decision to include in the forthcoming education bill a section to abolish the Scottish Joint Negotiating Committee? In particular, will he comment on the fact that the consultation consisted of issuing a letter to nine organisations giving them 10 working days to comment not on the policy content, but on the technical provisions of the bill? I know the Executive's arguments in favour of abolishing the SJNC—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:00:03.7213861+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C713333", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Freight and Passenger Terminal (Fife)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27180, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 881.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 881.0, "ID": 27180, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 953.0, "ContributionID": 713333, "EditedText": "I did not think that I was revealing anything particularly exciting—it is simply that work is in progress and that the steering group is a further stage of development. Henry McLeish has been pursuing the matter—", "EditedTextHTML": "I did not think that I was revealing anything particularly exciting—it is simply that work is in progress and that the steering group is a further stage of development.

Henry McLeish has been pursuing the matter—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:08.9207112+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C713339", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Freight and Passenger Terminal (Fife)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27180, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 881.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 881.0, "ID": 27180, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 965.0, "ContributionID": 713339, "EditedText": "I am not accepting an intervention—I have just taken one from Bruce Crawford. We have talked about how the Scottish Executive plays a full part in regeneration and diversification at Rosyth. That is an exciting issue for us, and I am glad that it has been debated early in the life of the Scottish Parliament. The policy framework, the role that we can all play and the role that the Government can play are clear— our challenge is to progress the matter collectively. Work is already being done, and I hope that the debate has helped to lift the issue up the agenda and that it has added value to the discussions that are already taking place in Fife. I thank Bruce Crawford for raising the issue and I hope that we will be able to report success in future.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am not accepting an intervention—I have just taken one from Bruce Crawford.

We have talked about how the Scottish Executive plays a full part in regeneration and diversification at Rosyth. That is an exciting issue for us, and I am glad that it has been debated early in the life of the Scottish Parliament. The policy framework, the role that we can all play and the role that the Government can play are clear— our challenge is to progress the matter collectively. Work is already being done, and I hope that the debate has helped to lift the issue up the agenda and that it has added value to the discussions that are already taking place in Fife.

I thank Bruce Crawford for raising the issue and I hope that we will be able to report success in future.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:08.9207112+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C713103", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27152, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 447.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27153, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 448.0, "QuestionHeading": "Compulsory Purchase", "QuestionHeadingID": 27154, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 451.0, "DisplayOrder": 451.0, "ID": 27154, "ParentID": 27153 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 462.0, "ContributionID": 713103, "EditedText": "I would be quite happy to provide a written answer to Mr Fergusson on that question. He has raised about four issues, all of which are complex, and I do not want to give an answer that might miss out a legal issue that ought to be brought to his attention.", "EditedTextHTML": "I would be quite happy to provide a written answer to Mr Fergusson on that question. He has raised about four issues, all of which are complex, and I do not want to give an answer that might miss out a legal issue that ought to be brought to his attention.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:18.1559401+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1756E184P464C712979", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Grahame, Christine", "ID": 1756, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Christine Grahame", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 231.0, "ContributionID": 712979, "EditedText": "Shame.", "EditedTextHTML": "Shame.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:01:40.7395022+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1756E184P464C713048", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Grahame, Christine", "ID": 1756, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Christine Grahame", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 374.0, "ContributionID": 713048, "EditedText": "Jackie Baillie seemed to be enjoying herself during her speech, but she is on a different planet entirely from Scotland's pensioners. Last week, pensioners who want a decent state pension were demonstrating outside the Parliament, but I did not see a single new Labour face there. MEMBERS: \"Rubbish.\" If Labour members were there, the pensioners did not seem very pleased to see them. I do not know what Jackie Baillie was doing during the debate, but if she had been listening she would have heard Alex Neil explain how the SNP would increase pensions and how Labour could do so with Westminster's various kitties.", "EditedTextHTML": "Jackie Baillie seemed to be enjoying herself during her speech, but she is on a different planet entirely from Scotland's pensioners. Last week, pensioners who want a decent state pension were demonstrating outside the Parliament, but I did not see a single new Labour face there. [MEMBERS: \"Rubbish.\"] If Labour members were there, the pensioners did not seem very pleased to see them.

I do not know what Jackie Baillie was doing during the debate, but if she had been listening she would have heard Alex Neil explain how the SNP would increase pensions and how Labour could do so with Westminster's various kitties.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:01:48.3030692+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1756E184P464C713054", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Grahame, Christine", "ID": 1756, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Christine Grahame", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Christine Grahame: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 386.0, "ContributionID": 713054, "EditedText": "When will those initiatives be implemented? Does the minister have a target? I love that word. I would like to know when those initiatives will be implemented. There is enough jaw in this Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "When will those initiatives be implemented? Does the minister have a target? I love that word. I would like to know when those initiatives will be implemented. There is enough jaw in this Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:01:48.3030692+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1756E184P464C713056", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Grahame, Christine", "ID": 1756, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Christine Grahame", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Christine Grahame: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 390.0, "ContributionID": 713056, "EditedText": "No, I will proceed.The cusp of the new century is the time to act, as the Sutherland report states, \"With Respect To Old Age\". There are some items on the shopping list. We should have a respectable state pension; erode agism; have integrated services for transport, social and health purposes; have warm and secure homes; consult not insult; and educate ourselves and our children of the value of older people. We should demonstrate that value by our deeds, here in this Parliament and in that other, less worthy, place. I am pleased—it has already been announced— that I have been made my party's shadow deputy minister for older people. That is not a cheap political position. I did not know that the Executive had a deputy minister for older people; I thought that Mr Gray was the Deputy Minister for Community Care. I will deal specifically with issues relating to older people. I know that that is welcomed by Better Government for Older People, many representatives of which are here today. My job is to listen, to take account of what people say and to shadow Mr Gray. I will be watching you, Mr Gray.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I will proceed.

The cusp of the new century is the time to act, as the Sutherland report states, \"With Respect To Old Age\". There are some items on the shopping list. We should have a respectable state pension; erode agism; have integrated services for transport, social and health purposes; have warm and secure homes; consult not insult; and educate ourselves and our children of the value of older people. We should demonstrate that value by our deeds, here in this Parliament and in that other, less worthy, place.

I am pleased—it has already been announced— that I have been made my party's shadow deputy minister for older people. That is not a cheap political position. I did not know that the Executive had a deputy minister for older people; I thought that Mr Gray was the Deputy Minister for Community Care. I will deal specifically with issues relating to older people. I know that that is welcomed by Better Government for Older People, many representatives of which are here today.

My job is to listen, to take account of what people say and to shadow Mr Gray. I will be watching you, Mr Gray.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:01:48.3030692+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1756E184P464C713058", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Grahame, Christine", "ID": 1756, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Christine Grahame", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Christine Grahame: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 394.0, "ContributionID": 713058, "EditedText": "I will not give way.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will not give way.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:01:48.3030692+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1756E184P464C713064", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Grahame, Christine", "ID": 1756, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Christine Grahame", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Christine Grahame: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 406.0, "ContributionID": 713064, "EditedText": "I took an intervention from the Deputy Minister for Communities, who was responding to the debate. I have only a couple of other sentences to say. Older people do not go away; we all become one. Scottish pensioners want a decent state pension so that they can exercise choice and be independent. Margaret Smith found that an offensive word. Independence is a fine word and, by the way, according to a recent survey we will be independent in 20 years' time.", "EditedTextHTML": "I took an intervention from the Deputy Minister for Communities, who was responding to the debate. I have only a couple of other sentences to say.

Older people do not go away; we all become one. Scottish pensioners want a decent state pension so that they can exercise choice and be independent. Margaret Smith found that an offensive word. Independence is a fine word and, by the way, according to a recent survey we will be independent in 20 years' time.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:01:48.3030692+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C713179", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27174, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 629.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27175, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 630.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27176, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 631.0, "DisplayOrder": 631.0, "ID": 27176, "ParentID": 27175 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 636.0, "ContributionID": 713179, "EditedText": "I thank the First Minister for his reply. Did he take the opportunity yesterday to discuss with the Secretary of State for Scotland the findings of the University of Bristol study? It showed that of the 15 constituencies in the UK that have the poorest health records and the highest poverty levels, six are in Glasgow. One is, indeed, represented by the First Minister. Will he take the opportunity presented by this question to explain to the people of Scotland his extraordinary decision—in line with the figures that have been announced by the Minister for Finance—to impose a real-terms cut in health spending in Scotland in the first year of this Labour Government? When he has explained why he did that, will he apologise?", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the First Minister for his reply. Did he take the opportunity yesterday to discuss with the Secretary of State for Scotland the findings of the University of Bristol study? It showed that of the 15 constituencies in the UK that have the poorest health records and the highest poverty levels, six are in Glasgow. One is, indeed, represented by the First Minister. Will he take the opportunity presented by this question to explain to the people of Scotland his extraordinary decision—in line with the figures that have been announced by the Minister for Finance—to impose a real-terms cut in health spending in Scotland in the first year of this Labour Government? When he has explained why he did that, will he apologise?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:01:27.8453423+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C713181", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27174, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 629.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27175, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 630.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27176, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 631.0, "DisplayOrder": 631.0, "ID": 27176, "ParentID": 27175 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 640.0, "ContributionID": 713181, "EditedText": "I thank the First Minister for his reply. His response strikes a chord with the leader column in The Herald from this morning. It says that the truth can hurt and that \"the strategies of avoidance shoot up like spring flowers.\"Instead of warm words and cups of coffee with the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Secretary of State for Scotland yesterday, might not the First Minister have taken that opportunity to secure more resources for Scotland's public services, bearing in mind the admission by the Minister for Finance on the day of the budget announcements in Parliament? Over the lifetime of this Labour Government, less will be spent on public services than in a comparable period under the discredited Conservatives. Is not it the case that the Executive is more interested in hot air than it is in the health of our public services?", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the First Minister for his reply. His response strikes a chord with the leader column in The Herald from this morning. It says that the truth can hurt and that

\"the strategies of avoidance shoot up like spring flowers.\"

Instead of warm words and cups of coffee with the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Secretary of State for Scotland yesterday, might not the First Minister have taken that opportunity to secure more resources for Scotland's public services, bearing in mind the admission by the Minister for Finance on the day of the budget announcements in Parliament? Over the lifetime of this Labour Government, less will be spent on public services than in a comparable period under the discredited Conservatives. Is not it the case that the Executive is more interested in hot air than it is in the health of our public services?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:01:27.8453423+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1783E59P270C713204", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Equalities", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27178, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 685.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 685.0, "ID": 27178, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Baillie, Jackie", "ID": 1783, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumbarton" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Jackie Baillie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Communities (Jackie Baillie): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 689.0, "ContributionID": 713204, "EditedText": "I am pleased to open this debate on equality—Interruption.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am pleased to open this debate on equality—[Interruption.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:01:27.8453423+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1857E136P222C713119", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27152, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 447.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27153, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 448.0, "QuestionHeading": "Maternity Services (Greater Glasgow)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27159, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 498.0, "DisplayOrder": 498.0, "ID": 27159, "ParentID": 27153 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeill, Pauline", "ID": 1857, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Kelvin" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Pauline McNeill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "6. Pauline McNeill (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 499.0, "ContributionID": 713119, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what account will be taken of geographical location in the review of maternity services within the greater Glasgow area. (S1O-779) The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): That is a matter for the Greater Glasgow Health Board. I expect local health boards to engage in full discussion with local communities and service users in reaching decisions regarding future service provision.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what account will be taken of geographical location in the review of maternity services within the greater Glasgow area. (S1O-779) The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): That is a matter for the Greater Glasgow Health Board. I expect local health boards to engage in full discussion with local communities and service users in reaching decisions regarding future service provision.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:00:06.6666071+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1857E136P222C713120", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27152, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 447.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27153, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 448.0, "QuestionHeading": "Maternity Services (Greater Glasgow)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27159, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 498.0, "DisplayOrder": 498.0, "ID": 27159, "ParentID": 27153 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeill, Pauline", "ID": 1857, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Kelvin" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Pauline McNeill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Pauline McNeill: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 501.0, "ContributionID": 713120, "EditedText": "Does the minister agree that there is bound to be concern in Glasgow over the proposal to reduce the number of maternity units from three to two? Does she recognise that that could threaten the future of the Queen Mother's maternity hospital at Yorkhill, which has an excellent reputation for serving the west of Scotland? Scotland has had the good fortune of offering women the chance to have their children at maternity hospitals. Given the number of low- birth-weight babies that has been announced this week, will the minister ensure that that choice remains available to the women of Scotland?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the minister agree that there is bound to be concern in Glasgow over the proposal to reduce the number of maternity units from three to two? Does she recognise that that could threaten the future of the Queen Mother's maternity hospital at Yorkhill, which has an excellent reputation for serving the west of Scotland? Scotland has had the good fortune of offering women the chance to have their children at maternity hospitals. Given the number of low- birth-weight babies that has been announced this week, will the minister ensure that that choice remains available to the women of Scotland?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:00:06.6666071+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1783E59P270C713010", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Baillie, Jackie", "ID": 1783, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumbarton" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Jackie Baillie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Communities (Jackie Baillie): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 297.0, "ContributionID": 713010, "EditedText": "A great deal has been said today about pensioners' standard of living—but only statements from the opposition parties that add up to a shameful litany of fine words and no policies. No action was proposed by the SNP—its promises hold no water and are guaranteed to create uncertainty and insecurity. We witness an unholy alliance between the Tories, with their dismal legacy, and the SNP. It is an alliance that offers nothing for our pensioners in the future. Neither Alex Neil nor any other SNP member proposed one policy; they just criticised and made promises—after 18 years of Tory Governments that widened the gap between the richest and poorest pensioners to the extent that one in five pensioners lives in a household with half the national average income. I shall return to the essence of the debate and remind members what the Scottish Executive and the Government are doing to tackle the economic, health and care needs of older people. The minimum income guarantee recognises that the gap between rich and poor pensioners has widened dramatically since 1979 and gives most money to help those most in need. Every pensioner will get a guaranteed income—", "EditedTextHTML": "A great deal has been said today about pensioners' standard of living—but only statements from the opposition parties that add up to a shameful litany of fine words and no policies. No action was proposed by the SNP—its promises hold no water and are guaranteed to create uncertainty and insecurity.

We witness an unholy alliance between the Tories, with their dismal legacy, and the SNP. It is an alliance that offers nothing for our pensioners in the future. Neither Alex Neil nor any other SNP member proposed one policy; they just criticised and made promises—after 18 years of Tory Governments that widened the gap between the richest and poorest pensioners to the extent that one in five pensioners lives in a household with half the national average income.

I shall return to the essence of the debate and remind members what the Scottish Executive and the Government are doing to tackle the economic, health and care needs of older people. The minimum income guarantee recognises that the gap between rich and poor pensioners has widened dramatically since 1979 and gives most money to help those most in need. Every pensioner will get a guaranteed income—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:32:53.221528+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1783E59P270C713014", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Baillie, Jackie", "ID": 1783, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumbarton" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Jackie Baillie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Jackie Baillie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 305.0, "ContributionID": 713014, "EditedText": "We have cut the price of fuel by cutting VAT from 8 per cent to 5 per cent, so our pensioners' money goes further. There is warm deal investment of more than £10 million this year and a further £28 million over the next two years, so 100,000 homes will be upgraded by 2003. A high proportion will be the homes of pensioners as older people suffer most from the effects of cold housing.", "EditedTextHTML": "We have cut the price of fuel by cutting VAT from 8 per cent to 5 per cent, so our pensioners' money goes further. There is warm deal investment of more than £10 million this year and a further £28 million over the next two years, so 100,000 homes will be upgraded by 2003. A high proportion will be the homes of pensioners as older people suffer most from the effects of cold housing.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:33:46.8988034+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1783E59P270C713018", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Baillie, Jackie", "ID": 1783, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumbarton" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Jackie Baillie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Jackie Baillie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 313.0, "ContributionID": 713018, "EditedText": "We already know that they oppose everything we want to do to make pensioners better off. I will give members a flavour of how they would do that. They introduced VAT on fuel and tried to increase it to 17.5 per cent. They introduced eye test charges for pensioners. They would not have given pensioner households the extra winter fuel allowance, and they would not support the minimum income guarantee. What about the SNP? Fourteen key promises were made in its manifesto, but not one referred to pensioners.", "EditedTextHTML": "We already know that they oppose everything we want to do to make pensioners better off. I will give members a flavour of how they would do that. They introduced VAT on fuel and tried to increase it to 17.5 per cent. They introduced eye test charges for pensioners. They would not have given pensioner households the extra winter fuel allowance, and they would not support the minimum income guarantee.

What about the SNP? Fourteen key promises were made in its manifesto, but not one referred to pensioners.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:33:46.8988034+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1783E59P270C713020", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Baillie, Jackie", "ID": 1783, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumbarton" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Jackie Baillie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Jackie Baillie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 317.0, "ContributionID": 713020, "EditedText": "In fact, the SNP manifesto for this Parliament was a pensioner-free zone—no figures, no costs, no ideas, no policies.", "EditedTextHTML": "In fact, the SNP manifesto for this Parliament was a pensioner-free zone—no figures, no costs, no ideas, no policies.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:33:46.8988034+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1783E59P270C713047", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Dec 1999", "ID": 4196 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pensioners", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27149, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27149, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Baillie, Jackie", "ID": 1783, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumbarton" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Jackie Baillie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Jackie Baillie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 371.0, "ContributionID": 713047, "EditedText": "The SNP will get its chance to reply on those issues. Of course, they are not easy, which is precisely why the SNP avoids them. Let us see whether, in the next 10 minutes, the SNP will address those issues. We all want security in retirement, but the SNP offers pensioners only incompetence and insecurity.", "EditedTextHTML": "The SNP will get its chance to reply on those issues. Of course, they are not easy, which is precisely why the SNP avoids them. Let us see whether, in the next 10 minutes, the

SNP will address those issues. We all want security in retirement, but the SNP offers pensioners only incompetence and insecurity.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:33:46.8988034+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712719", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Wednesday 1 December 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 27140, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 27140, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 2.0, "ContributionID": 712719, "EditedText": "THE PRESIDING OFFICER opened the meeting at 14:30", "EditedTextHTML": "[THE PRESIDING OFFICER opened the meeting at 14:30]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C712720", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Time for Reflection", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27141, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27141, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 4.0, "ContributionID": 712720, "EditedText": "I welcome Professor Donald Macleod of the Free Church of Scotland, who will lead our time for reflection today.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome Professor Donald Macleod of the Free Church of Scotland, who will lead our time for reflection today.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712721", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Time for Reflection", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27141, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27141, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Professor Donald Macleod (Free Church College) ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Professor Donald Macleod (Free Church College): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 6.0, "ContributionID": 712721, "EditedText": "Thank you for your kind welcome. Let us bow our heads in prayer. Our Father in heaven, in you there is peace and calmness, serenity and silence. In us, there is often dispeace and destruction, anxiety and harassment. Enable us now to look up, to see you and to see ourselves and our problems in terms of your perspective. We give thanks to you, O Lord, for Scottish democracy. We thank you for this Parliament and for all who thought and acted it into being. We bless you for its openness and accountability and for the integrity of all who serve in it and who serve it as officers. We bless you for the power given to this Parliament and we pray that those who serve will have the grace to use that power in accordance with your mind. Remember, Lord, all of us who have power—preachers, journalists and politicians. May we feel a keen sense of responsibility and may we use that power on behalf of those who have no power. May we speak for those who cannot speak for themselves. We remember you thus: the God, who, in Jesus Christ, let yourself be pushed out of the world on to the cross. You looked at reality through the eyes of an outsider and of the homeless and of the world's poor. You have known our pain, our fear and the bitter taste of death. You have commanded us, as the God of compassion, to remember the poor. We remember them, Lord, this day before you. May each of us in our sphere and capacity use our power in the interests of the homeless, the rough sleepers, the elderly and the victims of crime, drug addiction, alcohol, sexual abuse, domestic violence and discrimination. May we never use that power without sensitivity. May we use it never for ourselves, but only for the sake of others. Give us confidence, Lord—not least in this great new institution—in the possibility of change. Although often what we can do is but small, may we know the power of little. May we know that the aggregate of a large number of small changes will lead to a more just, more compassionate and more inclusive society. Our Lord, the world is so big and we are so small; the problems so huge in comparison to our vision, imagination, intellect, and resources that it is often beyond our powers to handle them. Give us humility in the face of those awesome challenges. We will learn, Lord, not to despair, but to cry for help. In that sense of dependence and of our finitude, we ask that we may address the tasks of this day and of this week. May grace, mercy and peace from God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit rest upon and abide with each one of you now and everlastingly. Amen.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you for your kind welcome. Let us bow our heads in prayer.

Our Father in heaven, in you there is peace and calmness, serenity and silence. In us, there is often dispeace and destruction, anxiety and harassment. Enable us now to look up, to see you and to see ourselves and our problems in terms of your perspective.

We give thanks to you, O Lord, for Scottish democracy. We thank you for this Parliament and for all who thought and acted it into being. We bless you for its openness and accountability and for the integrity of all who serve in it and who serve it as officers. We bless you for the power given to this Parliament and we pray that those who serve will have the grace to use that power in accordance with your mind.

Remember, Lord, all of us who have power—preachers, journalists and politicians. May we feel a keen sense of responsibility and may we use that power on behalf of those who have no power. May we speak for those who cannot speak for themselves.

We remember you thus: the God, who, in Jesus Christ, let yourself be pushed out of the world on to the cross. You looked at reality through the eyes of an outsider and of the homeless and of the world's poor. You have known our pain, our fear and the bitter taste of death. You have commanded us, as the God of compassion, to remember the poor. We remember them, Lord, this day before you.

May each of us in our sphere and capacity use our power in the interests of the homeless, the rough sleepers, the elderly and the victims of crime, drug addiction, alcohol, sexual abuse, domestic violence and discrimination. May we never use that power without sensitivity. May we use it never for ourselves, but only for the sake of others.

Give us confidence, Lord—not least in this great new institution—in the possibility of change. Although often what we can do is but small, may we know the power of little. May we know that the aggregate of a large number of small changes will lead to a more just, more compassionate and more inclusive society.

Our Lord, the world is so big and we are so small; the problems so huge in comparison to our vision, imagination, intellect, and resources that it is often beyond our powers to handle them. Give us humility in the face of those awesome challenges.

We will learn, Lord, not to despair, but to cry for help. In that sense of dependence and of our finitude, we ask that we may address the tasks of this day and of this week.

May grace, mercy and peace from God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit rest upon and abide with each one of you now and everlastingly. Amen.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2140E187P335C712728", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Beef on the Bone", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27142, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27142, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Rumbles, Mike", "ID": 2140, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Rumbles", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Mike Rumbles (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 22.0, "ContributionID": 712728, "EditedText": "First, on behalf of the Liberal Democrats, I welcome the minister's statement. The Executive has acted swiftly—on the same day that it received the latest medical advice from Sir David Carter—to lift the ban. That is to be greatly commended. We also welcome the fact that any future policy under the Scottish arm of the food standards agency will continue to hold that the protection of public health is paramount. I know that the industry backs that view, 100 per cent. The minister said that she intended that the regulations be laid and implemented quickly, so that the ban would be lifted before Parliament goes into recess and Scottish consumers would be able to purchase T-bone steaks; I look forward to that greatly. A consultation document proposing the lifting of the ban has been issued to 100 organisations. Will the minister clarify the purpose of the consultation exercise? I want to be certain that the ban is actually being lifted.", "EditedTextHTML": "First, on behalf of the Liberal Democrats, I welcome the minister's statement. The Executive has acted swiftly—on the same day that it received the latest medical advice from Sir David Carter—to lift the ban. That is to be greatly commended.

We also welcome the fact that any future policy under the Scottish arm of the food standards agency will continue to hold that the protection of public health is paramount. I know that the industry backs that view, 100 per cent.

The minister said that she intended that the regulations be laid and implemented quickly, so that the ban would be lifted before Parliament goes into recess and Scottish consumers would be able to purchase T-bone steaks; I look forward to that greatly. A consultation document proposing the lifting of the ban has been issued to 100 organisations. Will the minister clarify the purpose of the consultation exercise? I want to be certain that the ban is actually being lifted.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C712730", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Beef on the Bone", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27142, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27142, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Richard Simpson (Ochil) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 26.0, "ContributionID": 712730, "EditedText": "Along with everyone else, I welcome the lifting of the ban. I congratulate the Executive on the way in which it has handled the issue, which has been entirely appropriate, following medical advice. What will the Scottish Executive, in partnership with the UK Government, do now to promote beef in the United Kingdom, as well as abroad?", "EditedTextHTML": "Along with everyone else, I welcome the lifting of the ban. I congratulate the Executive on the way in which it has handled the issue, which has been entirely appropriate, following medical advice.

What will the Scottish Executive, in partnership with the UK Government, do now to promote beef in the United Kingdom, as well as abroad?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2066E64P88C712734", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Beef on the Bone", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27142, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27142, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McGrigor, Jamie", "ID": 2066, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie McGrigor", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Jamie McGrigor (Highlands and Islands) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 34.0, "ContributionID": 712734, "EditedText": "I am very pleased to hear the minister's statement, as will be the beef farmers. Will she answer the second part of Alex Johnstone's question? Will the minister and the Executive turn their attention to the sheep industry, where the new rules requiring slaughterhouses to split carcases have imposed huge extra costs and have resulted in many sheep being shot in the fields?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am very pleased to hear the minister's statement, as will be the beef farmers. Will she answer the second part of Alex Johnstone's question? Will the minister and the Executive turn their attention to the sheep industry, where the new rules requiring slaughterhouses to split carcases have imposed huge extra costs and have resulted in many sheep being shot in the fields?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C712738", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Beef on the Bone", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27142, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27142, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 42.0, "ContributionID": 712738, "EditedText": "That is right. I was about to say that the matter is sub judice.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is right. I was about to say that the matter is sub judice.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1926E190P479C712743", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Beef on the Bone", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27142, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27142, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Adam, Brian", "ID": 1926, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Adam", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Brian Adam (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 52.0, "ContributionID": 712743, "EditedText": "I have a technical point about the minister's statement—can she clarify what is meant by \"a lifting of the bone-in-beef ban on visible cuts of beef sold through retail outlets\"? I presume that we have no plans to sell invisible cuts.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have a technical point about the minister's statement—can she clarify what is meant by

\"a lifting of the bone-in-beef ban on visible cuts of beef sold through retail outlets\"?

I presume that we have no plans to sell invisible cuts.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C712745", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Beef on the Bone", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27142, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27142, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 56.0, "ContributionID": 712745, "EditedText": "That concludes discussion on the minister's statement.", "EditedTextHTML": "That concludes discussion on the minister's statement.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C712746", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27143, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 58.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 58.0, "ID": 27143, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 59.0, "ContributionID": 712746, "EditedText": "The next item of business is consideration of Parliamentary Bureau motions. I ask Mr Tom McCabe to move motion S1M-336, which proposes an addition to the business programme that was agreed last Thursday and relates to the timetabling of stage 3 of the Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill.", "EditedTextHTML": "The next item of business is consideration of Parliamentary Bureau motions. I ask Mr Tom McCabe to move motion S1M-336, which proposes an addition to the business programme that was agreed last Thursday and relates to the timetabling of stage 3 of the Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712748", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27143, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 58.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 58.0, "ID": 27143, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 62.0, "ContributionID": 712748, "EditedText": "That the Parliament agrees that, at Stage 3 of the Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill on 1st December 1999, proceedings shall be conducted as follows— (a) debate on amendments shall, if not concluded earlier, be brought to a conclusion 1 hour after the commencement of proceedings at Stage 3, (b) remaining debate at Stage 3 shall, if not concluded earlier, be brought to a conclusion 1 hour 30 minutes after the commencement of proceedings at Stage 3.—Mr McCabe. The Presiding Officer: The question is, that motion S1M-336 be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament agrees that, at Stage 3 of the Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill on 1st December 1999, proceedings shall be conducted as follows— (a) debate on amendments shall, if not concluded earlier, be brought to a conclusion 1 hour after the commencement of proceedings at Stage 3, (b) remaining debate at Stage 3 shall, if not concluded earlier, be brought to a conclusion 1 hour 30 minutes after the commencement of proceedings at Stage 3.—[Mr McCabe.] The Presiding Officer: The question is, that motion S1M-336 be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C712752", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Finance (Mr Jack McConnell): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 70.0, "ContributionID": 712752, "EditedText": "Thank you again for the selection of amendments, Presiding Officer. I will make a few remarks and I will reserve the right to respond to the debate as well. I hope that on the basis of my remarks, Andrew Wilson may be prepared to reconsider. As a new Parliament, we do not have the benefit of years of experience, or of established conventions that govern the processes of interaction between the Government and the Parliament. Not all the processes can be easily enshrined in legislation—the processes featured in the amendment come into that category—and neither can they all be dealt with adequately in standing orders. None the less, we must make them work. It is for that reason that we suggested that some of the financial issues advisory group's recommendations be given force, not by legislation, but by a series of understandings. In effect, we are attempting to build conventions in a new Parliament. The advantage of that approach is that understandings bring flexibility, which is absent using the blunt instrument of legislation. The nature of those processes means that the precise requirements will change over time, in the light of events and changing circumstances. That is not to say that such arrangements should not be honoured; of course they should. The Executive is determined to abide by agreed arrangements. If the Executive ever sought to change those, that could happen only following full discussion with the Finance Committee and the Audit Committee, or with the Parliament. The amendment seeks to do two things. First, it seeks to give the detailed agreements legislative force. Given the nature of the subject matter— which does not easily lend itself to legislation—I do not think that that is appropriate. As I have already said, I view those as serious undertakings, by which we shall abide.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you again for the selection of amendments, Presiding Officer.

I will make a few remarks and I will reserve the right to respond to the debate as well. I hope that on the basis of my remarks, Andrew Wilson may be prepared to reconsider.

As a new Parliament, we do not have the benefit of years of experience, or of established conventions that govern the processes of interaction between the Government and the Parliament. Not all the processes can be easily enshrined in legislation—the processes featured in the amendment come into that category—and neither can they all be dealt with adequately in standing orders. None the less, we must make them work. It is for that reason that we suggested that some of the financial issues advisory group's recommendations be given force, not by legislation, but by a series of understandings. In effect, we are attempting to build conventions in a new Parliament.

The advantage of that approach is that understandings bring flexibility, which is absent using the blunt instrument of legislation. The nature of those processes means that the precise requirements will change over time, in the light of events and changing circumstances. That is not to say that such arrangements should not be honoured; of course they should. The Executive is determined to abide by agreed arrangements. If the Executive ever sought to change those, that could happen only following full discussion with the Finance Committee and the Audit Committee, or with the Parliament.

The amendment seeks to do two things. First, it seeks to give the detailed agreements legislative force. Given the nature of the subject matter— which does not easily lend itself to legislation—I do not think that that is appropriate. As I have already said, I view those as serious undertakings, by which we shall abide.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C712764", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 95.0, "ContributionID": 712764, "EditedText": "I think that those are good points that are well made. Flexibility may be an important issue. We may want to have more agreements, in the future, than are listed here. I hope that Mr Swinney will listen to this point. The amendment says: \"Scottish ministers shall ensure that . . . administrative arrangements\" will conform to \"an agreement established under subsection (3) or, if no such agreement has been established, proposed agreements under subsection (2).\" That means that, if this Parliament has not passed the written agreement that is referred to in subsection (3) by resolution, our proposed agreement, without amendment by the Finance Committee or discussion in the Parliament, will become the written agreement that is put in place. What I have said again clearly today is that I want written agreements to be agreed here—not just proposed by ministers—by Parliament and the Executive.", "EditedTextHTML": "I think that those are good points that are well made. Flexibility may be an important issue. We may want to have more agreements, in the future, than are listed here.

I hope that Mr Swinney will listen to this point. The amendment says:

\"Scottish ministers shall ensure that . . . administrative arrangements\" will conform to

\"an agreement established under subsection (3) or, if no such agreement has been established, proposed agreements under subsection (2).\"

That means that, if this Parliament has not passed the written agreement that is referred to in subsection (3) by resolution, our proposed agreement, without amendment by the Finance

Committee or discussion in the Parliament, will become the written agreement that is put in place.

What I have said again clearly today is that I want written agreements to be agreed here—not just proposed by ministers—by Parliament and the Executive.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C712757", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Keith Raffan (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 81.0, "ContributionID": 712757, "EditedText": "I rise on behalf of the Liberal Democrats to oppose the amendment and support the minister. Much of what the minister said, I would have said. My problem with the amendment is that it is unnecessary. What is more, it reduces flexibility. I take the point that we have not yet debated the amended draft agreements, but their last paragraph makes quite clear that they are agreements between the Finance Committee and the minister. The minister has co-operated well with the committee—indeed, we got the papers on 22 October, four days before we debated them, which I believed is a record for a minister. I wish that the others would do the same, although I am aware of the pressures that ministers are under. The agreements are important and the guarantee that the minister has given that they will be debated in this chamber is important. I also think that it is important that we retain flexibility. Mr Swinney was right to say that I said that we have established a world-class budgetary process. That is a tribute to the financial issues advisory group and their excellent report to the minister and to the Executive. I do not want to make what would be the equivalent of a third-reading speech now, but I must say that we have a world-class system in place. We have a framework that will have to be altered in the light of the experience that we will go through in stages 1, 2 and 3 of a budget bill when we get into a full financial year. I would not want to tie the hands of the Finance Committee or of the minister by enshrining this in legislation at this point. I would rather that the committee and the minister retained a flexibility that allowed us to alter those agreements and understandings in the light of experience. That is common sense. I oppose the amendment because I believe that it is crucial that we retain flexibility.", "EditedTextHTML": "I rise on behalf of the Liberal Democrats to oppose the amendment and support the minister. Much of what the minister said, I would have said. My problem with the amendment is that it is unnecessary. What is more, it reduces flexibility. I take the point that we have not yet debated the amended draft agreements, but their last paragraph makes quite clear that they are agreements between the Finance Committee and the minister.

The minister has co-operated well with the committee—indeed, we got the papers on 22 October, four days before we debated them, which I believed is a record for a minister. I wish that the others would do the same, although I am aware of the pressures that ministers are under.

The agreements are important and the guarantee that the minister has given that they will be debated in this chamber is important. I also think that it is important that we retain flexibility. Mr Swinney was right to say that I said that we have established a world-class budgetary process. That is a tribute to the financial issues advisory group and their excellent report to the minister and to the Executive.

I do not want to make what would be the equivalent of a third-reading speech now, but I must say that we have a world-class system in place. We have a framework that will have to be altered in the light of the experience that we will go through in stages 1, 2 and 3 of a budget bill when we get into a full financial year. I would not want to tie the hands of the Finance Committee or of the minister by enshrining this in legislation at this point. I would rather that the committee and the minister retained a flexibility that allowed us to alter those agreements and understandings in the light of experience. That is common sense.

I oppose the amendment because I believe that it is crucial that we retain flexibility.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C712759", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 85.0, "ContributionID": 712759, "EditedText": "I recommend to members that we wind up debate on this amendment, as we are a quarter of the way through our time and we have dealt with only the first amendment, important though it is.", "EditedTextHTML": "I recommend to members that we wind up debate on this amendment, as we are a quarter of the way through our time and we have dealt with only the first amendment, important though it is.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C712760", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 87.0, "ContributionID": 712760, "EditedText": "I am grateful for the comments that we have heard so far on this amendment. I hope that they have been made in a spirit of improvement. I say to Mr Raffan that his argument against setting in stone the form of the written agreements does not stand. All that we want to set in stone is the existence of written agreements. The form that those written agreements take can be amended as we choose; there is nothing binding on that. Therefore, his justification for opposing the amendment does not stand. I hope that the minister will give thought to the opportunity at his disposal to improve the wording. I am not precious about that. I would be delighted if he agreed to the amendment in principle and took the opportunity to amend it, as both Mr Swinney and Mr Davidson have suggested. I invite all members to support the principle of the amendment.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful for the comments that we have heard so far on this amendment. I hope that they have been made in a spirit of improvement. I say to Mr Raffan that his argument against setting in stone the form of the written agreements does not stand. All that we want to set in stone is the existence of written agreements. The form that those written agreements take can be amended as we choose; there is nothing binding on that. Therefore, his justification for opposing the amendment does not stand.

I hope that the minister will give thought to the opportunity at his disposal to improve the wording.

I am not precious about that. I would be delighted if he agreed to the amendment in principle and took the opportunity to amend it, as both Mr Swinney and Mr Davidson have suggested. I invite all members to support the principle of the amendment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C712761", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 89.0, "ContributionID": 712761, "EditedText": "I apologise. I should have allowed Mr McConnell to speak first.", "EditedTextHTML": "I apologise. I should have allowed Mr McConnell to speak first.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C712766", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 99.0, "ContributionID": 712766, "EditedText": "The agreement of this amendment would lead to a situation in which the ministers would have more authority than they would have had otherwise. Much as I might enjoy that, we have sought all the way through to avoid that situation. I ask once again that this amendment be withdrawn. If it is not, I am prepared to recommend that the Parliament vote against it.", "EditedTextHTML": "The agreement of this amendment would lead to a situation in which the ministers would have more authority than they would have had otherwise. Much as I might enjoy that, we have sought all the way through to avoid that situation. I ask once again that this amendment be withdrawn. If it is not, I am prepared to recommend that the Parliament vote against it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C712771", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 109.0, "ContributionID": 712771, "EditedText": "That was a good try, Mr Davidson, but I think that Mr McConnell had finished. I am sorry, but we must come to a decision. The question is, that amendment 23 be agreed to. Are we all agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "That was a good try, Mr Davidson, but I think that Mr McConnell had finished. I am sorry, but we must come to a decision.

The question is, that amendment 23 be agreed to. Are we all agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712772", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 111.0, "ContributionID": 712772, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712776", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 118.0, "ContributionID": 712776, "EditedText": "Amendment 23 disagreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment 23 disagreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712777", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 119.0, "ContributionID": 712777, "EditedText": "Section 3—Contingencies", "EditedTextHTML": "Section 3—Contingencies

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C712780", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 124.0, "ContributionID": 712780, "EditedText": "I am grateful to the minister, because this amendment follows on from an amendment that I proposed on 2 November, which would have replaced the figure of £50 million with a percentage. It is in everybody's interest that we do that, because a figure can be eroded in the short term—let alone the long term—by inflation. A percentage figure is far more sensible. I presume that the 0.5 per cent proposed amounts to more than £50 million. For our information, perhaps the minister could provide us with the figure.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful to the minister, because this amendment follows on from an amendment that I proposed on 2 November, which would have replaced the figure of £50 million with a percentage. It is in everybody's interest that we do that, because a figure can be eroded in the short term—let alone the long term—by inflation. A percentage figure is far more sensible.

I presume that the 0.5 per cent proposed amounts to more than £50 million. For our information, perhaps the minister could provide us with the figure.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C712784", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 130.0, "ContributionID": 712784, "EditedText": "I move amendment 2. Amendments 2 and 21 are to enable limits on local authority capital expenditure to be set out in budget acts, as recommended by FIAG. They also apply to bodies such as police and fire boards, which are treated as local authorities for the purposes of section 94 of the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1973. Amendment 20 is a consequential change to the bill's interpretation provisions. The amendments impose parliamentary control on the Executive's proposals for local authority capital spending, in so far as that counts against the total budget. Without these amendments, ministerial decisions on local authority capital expenditure would not be subject to parliamentary approval. The Executive considers that to be anomalous. Local authority capital expenditure is a mixture of expenditure that counts against the total Scottish budget, and expenditure that is financed from local authorities' own resources. The intention is that the figure that appears in a budget act should relate only to that part of local authorities' expenditure that counts against the total budget. It would be inappropriate for a budget act to specify a figure that included any part of expenditure that was financed directly by local authorities. We have concluded that it is not possible to define the relevant part of local authority capital expenditure in legislation; instead, the amendments require Scottish ministers to lay before Parliament a report that describes the expenditure to be covered by the limits set out in budget acts. The Executive intends that the expenditure that is described in such reports will be that part of local authorities' and related bodies' expenditure that counts against the total budget.", "EditedTextHTML": "I move amendment 2. Amendments 2 and 21 are to enable limits on local authority capital expenditure to be set out in budget acts, as recommended by FIAG. They also apply to bodies such as police and fire boards, which are treated as local authorities for the purposes of section 94 of the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1973. Amendment 20 is a consequential change to the bill's interpretation provisions.
The amendments impose parliamentary control on the Executive's proposals for local authority capital spending, in so far as that counts against the total budget. Without these amendments, ministerial decisions on local authority capital expenditure would not be subject to parliamentary approval. The Executive considers that to be anomalous. Local authority capital expenditure is a mixture of expenditure that counts against the total Scottish budget, and expenditure that is financed from local authorities' own resources. The intention is that the figure that appears in a budget act should relate only to that part of local authorities' expenditure that counts against the total budget. It would be inappropriate for a budget act to specify a figure that included any part of expenditure that was financed directly by local authorities.

We have concluded that it is not possible to define the relevant part of local authority capital expenditure in legislation; instead, the amendments require Scottish ministers to lay before Parliament a report that describes the expenditure to be covered by the limits set out in budget acts. The Executive intends that the expenditure that is described in such reports will be that part of local authorities' and related bodies' expenditure that counts against the total budget.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C712786", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 136.0, "ContributionID": 712786, "EditedText": "Without these amendments the Executive will be able to establish the annual limits on local authority capital expenditure without reference to Parliament or reference to the budget acts. The phrase \"relevant expenditure\" means that we will specify in each budget act and in the supporting documentation exactly which element of local authority capital expenditure is subject to parliamentary control each year. In that way, we hope that each year Parliament will have the right to approve that total, rather than that total simply being a matter for the ministers themselves.", "EditedTextHTML": "Without these amendments the Executive will be able to establish the annual limits on local authority capital expenditure without reference to Parliament or reference to the budget acts. The phrase \"relevant expenditure\" means that we will specify in each budget act and in the supporting documentation exactly which element of local authority capital expenditure is subject to parliamentary control each year. In that way, we hope that each year Parliament will have the right to approve that total, rather than that total simply being a matter for the ministers themselves.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712793", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 147.0, "ContributionID": 712793, "EditedText": "Section 11—Audit Scotland: financial provisions", "EditedTextHTML": "Section 11—Audit Scotland: financial provisions

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712795", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 150.0, "ContributionID": 712795, "EditedText": "Amendment 24 agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment 24 agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C712797", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 153.0, "ContributionID": 712797, "EditedText": "Many amendments that we will hear today appear to be drafting improvements on amendments that the minister has previously lodged. It would have been nice if he had shown the same flexibility to the SNP's draft amendment, given that we do not have the resources of the civil service behind us.", "EditedTextHTML": "Many amendments that we will hear today appear to be drafting improvements on amendments that the minister has previously lodged. It would have been nice if he had shown the same flexibility to the SNP's draft amendment, given that we do not have the resources of the civil service behind us.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C712800", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 157.0, "ContributionID": 712800, "EditedText": "I call Mr McConnell to move amendment 5, with which we are debating amendment 22.", "EditedTextHTML": "I call Mr McConnell to move amendment 5, with which we are debating amendment 22.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C712801", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 159.0, "ContributionID": 712801, "EditedText": "I will resist the temptation to respond to Andrew Wilson's previous remarks. Amendment 5 deals with tasks such as audits and value-for-money studies that the Auditor General, under the provisions of this bill, authorises others to do on his behalf. The provision is necessary to enable the staff of Audit Scotland to exercise the Auditor General's functions, if he so authorises, as if they were his own staff. The amendment merely ensures that he remains ultimately responsible for any such work. Amendment 22 does exactly the same, where the Accounts Commission authorises others— Audit Scotland staff, for example—to exercise its functions. I move amendment 5.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will resist the temptation to respond to Andrew Wilson's previous remarks. Amendment 5 deals with tasks such as audits and value-for-money studies that the Auditor General, under the provisions of this bill, authorises others to do on his behalf. The provision is necessary to enable the staff of Audit Scotland to exercise the Auditor General's functions, if he so authorises, as if they were his own staff. The amendment merely ensures that he remains ultimately responsible for any such work.

Amendment 22 does exactly the same, where the Accounts Commission authorises others— Audit Scotland staff, for example—to exercise its functions.

I move amendment 5.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712806", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 166.0, "ContributionID": 712806, "EditedText": "Amendments 25 and 26 moved—Mr McConnell—and agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendments 25 and 26 moved—[Mr McConnell]—and agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1906E278P355C712817", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Welsh, Andrew", "ID": 1906, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Angus" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Welsh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Welsh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 185.0, "ContributionID": 712817, "EditedText": "I would like to draw out the thinking behind the minister's proposal. The Auditor General's powers to initiate investigations on economy, effectiveness and efficiency are crucial to the work of public financial accounting in Scotland. By encouraging best practice and by bringing to light and to public scrutiny poor use of resources, the Auditor General will undoubtedly be able to improve financial awareness and create higher standards of service provision in Scotland. The work of Audit Scotland is at the heart of good government and resource use within the province of this Parliament. Although I note the reduction of the constraint on the Auditor General from a threshold of 50 per cent to one of 25 per cent, I believe that the amendment still does not go far enough in allowing proper public scrutiny and accountability. I do not believe that there should be any no-go areas for the Auditor General or for Audit Scotland where public money is being spent. Although allowing access to bodies funded up to 25 per cent by public funds is definitely an improvement, I still ask why any such restriction is being placed on Audit Scotland. That public watchdog should be able to track and to account for public funds. Although the Auditor General may choose not to investigate smaller amounts spent by publicly funded organisations, he or she should have the power, where it is considered appropriate, to go into anywhere where public funds have been allocated, unless there is very good reason not to do so. I am also wary of the new catch-all amendment, which will work only if the organisation involved voluntarily agrees to its own scrutiny. I am concerned that situations may arise in which scrutiny would be desirable but the organisation that needs to be scrutinised will not co-operate. I ask the minister to explain the caveat of volunteering an examination. Why is the Auditor General not given full powers to follow public money wherever it goes? I hope that the minister can explain more fully the reasoning behind those exceptions to the normal rules of scrutiny.", "EditedTextHTML": "I would like to draw out the thinking behind the minister's proposal. The Auditor General's powers to initiate investigations on economy, effectiveness and efficiency are crucial to the work of public financial accounting in Scotland. By encouraging best practice and by bringing to light and to public scrutiny poor use of resources, the Auditor General will undoubtedly be able to improve financial awareness and create higher standards of service provision in Scotland.

The work of Audit Scotland is at the heart of good government and resource use within the province of this Parliament. Although I note the reduction of the constraint on the Auditor General from a threshold of 50 per cent to one of 25 per cent, I believe that the amendment still does not go far enough in allowing proper public scrutiny and accountability. I do not believe that there should be any no-go areas for the Auditor General or for Audit Scotland where public money is being spent.

Although allowing access to bodies funded up to 25 per cent by public funds is definitely an improvement, I still ask why any such restriction is being placed on Audit Scotland. That public watchdog should be able to track and to account for public funds. Although the Auditor General may choose not to investigate smaller amounts spent by publicly funded organisations, he or she should have the power, where it is considered appropriate, to go into anywhere where public funds have been allocated, unless there is very good reason not to do so.

I am also wary of the new catch-all amendment, which will work only if the organisation involved voluntarily agrees to its own scrutiny. I am concerned that situations may arise in which scrutiny would be desirable but the organisation that needs to be scrutinised will not co-operate. I ask the minister to explain the caveat of volunteering an examination. Why is the Auditor General not given full powers to follow public money wherever it goes? I hope that the minister can explain more fully the reasoning behind those exceptions to the normal rules of scrutiny.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2152E53P75C712819", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnston, Nick", "ID": 2152, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nick Johnston", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Nick Johnston (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 189.0, "ContributionID": 712819, "EditedText": "I, too, welcome the minister's flexible approach. I lodged the original amendment for a threshold of 15 per cent. As members of the Audit Committee realise, 50 per cent is an arbitrary figure, as are 25 per cent and 15 per cent, and we have to come to some compromise. I welcome the new threshold, but I do not welcome the fact that the minister has missed out an important concession that he offered verbally to the committee—that, in exceptional circumstances, the Auditor General would be able to go into any organisation where public funds were involved. Why, at this late stage, did he feel that he should leave that out of the bill?", "EditedTextHTML": "I, too, welcome the minister's flexible approach. I lodged the original amendment for a threshold of 15 per cent. As members of the Audit Committee realise, 50 per cent is an arbitrary figure, as are 25 per cent and 15 per cent, and we have to come to some compromise.

I welcome the new threshold, but I do not welcome the fact that the minister has missed out an important concession that he offered verbally to the committee—that, in exceptional circumstances, the Auditor General would be able to go into any organisation where public funds were involved. Why, at this late stage, did he feel

that he should leave that out of the bill?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1926E190P479C712822", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Adam, Brian", "ID": 1926, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Adam", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Brian Adam (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 195.0, "ContributionID": 712822, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C712828", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 205.0, "ContributionID": 712828, "EditedText": "Amendment 27 concerns value- for-money examinations of the water and sewerage authorities. The Water Industry Act 1999 creates the new office of Water Industry Commissioner for Scotland, which is a major step forward in the regulation of the water industry in Scotland. We are concerned that, as both the commissioner and the Auditor General for Scotland have a remit to ensure that the water and sewerage authorities act with economy, efficiency and effectiveness, there is a potential for overlap. I am sure that the Auditor General and the commissioner will liaise to ensure that their activities are complementary and do not duplicate each other. Amendment 27 merely gives such an arrangement statutory force. I hope that members will agree to it. I move amendment 27.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment 27 concerns value- for-money examinations of the water and sewerage authorities. The Water Industry Act 1999 creates the new office of Water Industry Commissioner for Scotland, which is a major step forward in the regulation of the water industry in Scotland. We are concerned that, as both the commissioner and the Auditor General for Scotland have a remit to ensure that the water and sewerage authorities act with economy, efficiency and effectiveness, there is a potential for overlap. I am sure that the Auditor General and the commissioner will liaise to ensure that their activities are complementary and do not duplicate each other. Amendment 27 merely gives such an arrangement statutory force. I hope that members will agree to it.

I move amendment 27.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712835", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 217.0, "ContributionID": 712835, "EditedText": "Schedule 1BORROWING BY CERTAIN STATUTORY BODIES", "EditedTextHTML": "Schedule 1

BORROWING BY CERTAIN STATUTORY BODIES

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C712840", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27145, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 223.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 223.0, "ID": 27145, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Finance (Mr Jack McConnell): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 227.0, "ContributionID": 712840, "EditedText": "This bill is a fine example of how devolution can make a real difference to the people of Scotland. It will help the Parliament and the Executive to take decisions on expenditure that are critical to Scotland and to our future success. Those decisions will, of course, be taken in a Scottish context. The bill has shown that a devolved Administration can tackle issues of real consequence. Its provisions go to the heart of good governance. The bill has shown that the Parliament and the Executive can work together— although it was developed by the Executive, it owes a great deal to the input of the Parliament, particularly to that of the members of the Audit Committee and the Finance Committee. Let me place the bill in context. In February 1998, the then Secretary of State for Scotland asked the financial issues advisory group to mark out a blueprint for Scotland's public finances after devolution. Members will recall from earlier discussions that that group produced an extremely thorough report, proposing a variety of measures intended to ensure that, after devolution, Scotland's public finances could be managed effectively. As many of us will be aware, the statutory framework that the bill will put in place is just one of several ways in which FIAG's recommendations are being implemented. FIAG's vision of a financial regime that would be open and accessible, and that would provide a balance between the Parliament and the Executive, goes to the heart of the bill. Although there was a deliberate decision not to throw out tried and tested Westminster procedures unless something better could be devised, there are a number of areas where the Parliament is about to lead the way on financial management. Examples that spring to mind are the statutory arrangements for ensuring that officials of the Scottish Executive are answerable to the Parliament for their financial stewardship, and the arrangements for public audit, which are perhaps epitomised by the proposal to establish a single public audit service for Scotland—a service that we all expect to be at the leading edge of public audit practice. The main provisions of the bill cover Parliament's controls on the Executive's expenditure, including controls on temporary and emergency arrangements. They ensure that the Executive's spending programme will be subject to thorough parliamentary scrutiny. Members should be in no doubt—the partnership Executive supports those processes and we will meet their demands. We will account for our actions and ensure that Parliament is involved in our financial decisions. I reiterate that again on behalf of my colleagues; this is a challenge, but we will make it work. Having covered the statutory requirements of the budgeting process, the bill goes on to deal with accountability. Crucially, it will make officials answerable to the Parliament, while in no way diminishing ministerial accountability. It puts officials under a statutory duty to challenge the decisions of ministers on the grounds of irregularity, impropriety or poor value for money. Other measures will help to ensure that financial accounts are prepared promptly and that proper accounting standards can be insisted on. It is my intention that the public sector in Scotland should lead the way in producing financial information that is accurate, informative and on time. The bill's provisions for audit will help to ensure that that objective can be met. Finally, the bill puts in place a value-for-money regime. It does not place unreasonable burdens on public sector managers, but it enables the Parliament to ensure that the expenditure that it authorises is spent economically, efficiently and to good effect. Overall, the bill sets up a statutory framework for financial management of which we all can be proud. There have been a number of changes to the bill since it was first debated in Parliament; many stem from recommendations made by MSPs during meetings of the Finance Committee and the Audit Committee and during informal discussions. The process by which the bill has been prepared has seemed to me very positive; I hope that it will set a model for how the Parliament and the Scottish Executive will work together in future. This bill would not have been possible without a great deal of help and support. I extend my thanks first to the members of FIAG; their report was the foundation of the bill and of wider matters covered by the standing orders and non-statutory parliamentary arrangements. I also thank the individuals and organisations, too numerous to mention individually, who responded to the consultations conducted by FIAG and the Executive. Help in drafting tricky technical issues came from a number of sources; I mention particularly officials from the Accounts Commission and the National Audit Office. My thanks also go to the members of the Finance Committee and the Audit Committee and to their clerk and her assistants. As I said, members of the committees approached the bill in a positive and constructive way and the clerk greatly assisted in that. I thank my colleagues on the Executive for their support. The bill stems from recommendations whose sole purpose was to ensure that Scotland has the best possible framework for public financial management. Its provisions are often complex and, although its objectives are straightforward, its implementation will require our dealing with a variety of technical, financial and legal issues. Despite its complexity, the bill has been subject to thorough and effective scrutiny by the Parliament, which has resulted in a number of improvements. We now have a bill that allows us in a new way to set our budgets, to spend money openly and wisely and to account for what we do. I move,That the Parliament agrees that the Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill is passed.", "EditedTextHTML": "This bill is a fine example of how devolution can make a real difference to the people of Scotland. It will help the Parliament and the Executive to take decisions on expenditure that are critical to Scotland and to our future success. Those decisions will, of course, be taken in a Scottish context.

The bill has shown that a devolved Administration can tackle issues of real consequence. Its provisions go to the heart of good governance. The bill has shown that the Parliament and the Executive can work together— although it was developed by the Executive, it owes a great deal to the input of the Parliament, particularly to that of the members of the Audit Committee and the Finance Committee.

Let me place the bill in context. In February 1998, the then Secretary of State for Scotland asked the financial issues advisory group to mark out a blueprint for Scotland's public finances after devolution. Members will recall from earlier discussions that that group produced an extremely thorough report, proposing a variety of measures intended to ensure that, after devolution, Scotland's public finances could be managed effectively.

As many of us will be aware, the statutory framework that the bill will put in place is just one of several ways in which FIAG's recommendations are being implemented. FIAG's vision of a financial regime that would be open and accessible, and that would provide a balance between the Parliament and the Executive, goes to the heart of the bill. Although there was a deliberate decision not to throw out tried and tested Westminster procedures unless something better could be devised, there are a number of areas where the Parliament is about to lead the way on financial management. Examples that spring to mind are the statutory arrangements for ensuring that officials of the Scottish Executive are answerable to the Parliament for their financial stewardship, and the arrangements for public audit, which are perhaps epitomised by the proposal to establish a single public audit service for Scotland—a service that we all expect to be at the leading edge of public audit practice.

The main provisions of the bill cover Parliament's controls on the Executive's expenditure, including controls on temporary and emergency arrangements. They ensure that the Executive's spending programme will be subject to thorough parliamentary scrutiny. Members should be in no doubt—the partnership Executive supports those processes and we will meet their demands. We will account for our actions and ensure that Parliament is involved in our financial decisions. I reiterate that again on behalf of my colleagues; this is a challenge, but we will make it work.

Having covered the statutory requirements of the budgeting process, the bill goes on to deal with accountability. Crucially, it will make officials answerable to the Parliament, while in no way diminishing ministerial accountability. It puts officials under a statutory duty to challenge the decisions of ministers on the grounds of irregularity, impropriety or poor value for money.

Other measures will help to ensure that financial accounts are prepared promptly and that proper accounting standards can be insisted on. It is my intention that the public sector in Scotland should lead the way in producing financial information that is accurate, informative and on time. The bill's provisions for audit will help to ensure that that objective can be met.

Finally, the bill puts in place a value-for-money regime. It does not place unreasonable burdens on public sector managers, but it enables the Parliament to ensure that the expenditure that it authorises is spent economically, efficiently and to good effect. Overall, the bill sets up a statutory framework for financial management of which we all can be proud.

There have been a number of changes to the bill since it was first debated in Parliament; many stem from recommendations made by MSPs during meetings of the Finance Committee and the Audit Committee and during informal discussions. The process by which the bill has been prepared has seemed to me very positive; I hope that it will set a model for how the Parliament and the Scottish Executive will work together in future.

This bill would not have been possible without a great deal of help and support. I extend my thanks first to the members of FIAG; their report was the foundation of the bill and of wider matters covered by the standing orders and non-statutory parliamentary arrangements. I also thank the individuals and organisations, too numerous to mention individually, who responded to the consultations conducted by FIAG and the Executive. Help in drafting tricky technical issues came from a number of sources; I mention particularly officials from the Accounts Commission and the National Audit Office. My

thanks also go to the members of the Finance Committee and the Audit Committee and to their clerk and her assistants. As I said, members of the committees approached the bill in a positive and constructive way and the clerk greatly assisted in that. I thank my colleagues on the Executive for their support.

The bill stems from recommendations whose sole purpose was to ensure that Scotland has the best possible framework for public financial management. Its provisions are often complex and, although its objectives are straightforward, its implementation will require our dealing with a variety of technical, financial and legal issues. Despite its complexity, the bill has been subject to thorough and effective scrutiny by the Parliament, which has resulted in a number of improvements. We now have a bill that allows us in a new way to set our budgets, to spend money openly and wisely and to account for what we do.

I move,

That the Parliament agrees that the Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill is passed.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2228E151P202C712859", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27146, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 269.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 269.0, "ID": 27146, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McCabe, Tom", "ID": 2228, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Tom McCabe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Parliament (Mr Tom McCabe): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 275.0, "ContributionID": 712859, "EditedText": "With your permission, Presiding Officer, I would like to move a motion to bring forward members' business. I move,That the Parliament agrees that members' business be brought forward to 16:38.", "EditedTextHTML": "With your permission, Presiding Officer, I would like to move a motion to bring forward members' business.

I move,

That the Parliament agrees that members' business be brought forward to 16:38.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712860", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27146, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 269.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 269.0, "ID": 27146, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 277.0, "ContributionID": 712860, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C712842", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27145, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 223.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 223.0, "ID": 27145, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr David Davidson (North-East Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 233.0, "ContributionID": 712842, "EditedText": "I welcome the approach that has been taken to the bill. The bill must be a fascinating piece of legislation, because we have the largest turnout of Labour members for many weeks—it is encouraging to see them supporting the Minister for Finance. The Scottish Conservatives welcome the bill for providing a structure and a mechanism by which the Parliament can ascertain on behalf of the Scottish people where their money is spent and whether it is spent prudently and to the maximum effect. The bill sums up what we have tried to achieve in the Finance Committee and the Audit Committee; I hope that people recognise that we have approached it in a constructive, non-partisan manner. I also welcome the input, before the establishment of the Parliament, from FIAG and the many other organisations that the minister mentioned. The written agreements are vital to the role of the Finance Committee in budget scrutiny. They will help the committee to support the work of Parliament's other subject committees. We must build on what we have done today to produce a good, proactive relationship between the minister and the Finance Committee and the Parliament's other committees. In particular, we must be able to call on the minister at fairly short notice when an item needs to be discussed. We will try to be flexible, as the minister has always tried to be. We must have an assurance today that any potential Cabinet or Executive committee structure set up by Mr Blair—such as the one that has been mentioned in the past couple of days—will not undermine, in any way, any relationship between Scottish ministers and the Parliament. We have always said that every penny must be traceable and that there should be no build-up of war chests. We hope that the bill will prevent the recycling of previous financial statements as new spending. We need clarity about the status of all on-going spending programmes. Perhaps the minister will consider the provision of monthly management accounts, or some such vehicle, to assist the committees in their work. Public consultation, while laudable, takes place only at stage 1. The Finance Committee had problems at stage 2 and even the expert witnesses whom we brought in to give assistance and clarity had some difficulty. I hope that the minister will address that. Perhaps the minister would like to give some thought to a contingency fund. I am always unhappy when contingencies are drawn from various budgets; that gives an opportunity for smokescreens, which we do not want in this Parliament. We want to be able to see clearly what ministers are doing. We must also recognise that honest Jack may not always be our Minister for Finance. It is important for whoever succeeds to that role, whatever end of the bench he currently sits at—I do not know, as I am not the First Minister—that what we do today progresses in a constructive manner. In conclusion, I simply remind the First Minister—at least I would like to do so, but he is not here—of his words at the opening of the Parliament about Government openness and accountability.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the approach that has been taken to the bill. The bill must be a fascinating piece of legislation, because we have the largest turnout of Labour members for many weeks—it is encouraging to see them supporting the Minister for Finance.

The Scottish Conservatives welcome the bill for providing a structure and a mechanism by which the Parliament can ascertain on behalf of the Scottish people where their money is spent and whether it is spent prudently and to the maximum effect. The bill sums up what we have tried to achieve in the Finance Committee and the Audit Committee; I hope that people recognise that we have approached it in a constructive, non-partisan manner. I also welcome the input, before the establishment of the Parliament, from FIAG and the many other organisations that the minister mentioned.

The written agreements are vital to the role of the Finance Committee in budget scrutiny. They will help the committee to support the work of Parliament's other subject committees. We must build on what we have done today to produce a good, proactive relationship between the minister and the Finance Committee and the Parliament's other committees. In particular, we must be able to call on the minister at fairly short notice when an item needs to be discussed. We will try to be flexible, as the minister has always tried to be.

We must have an assurance today that any potential Cabinet or Executive committee structure set up by Mr Blair—such as the one that has been mentioned in the past couple of days—will not undermine, in any way, any relationship between Scottish ministers and the Parliament.

We have always said that every penny must be traceable and that there should be no build-up of war chests. We hope that the bill will prevent the recycling of previous financial statements as new spending. We need clarity about the status of all on-going spending programmes. Perhaps the minister will consider the provision of monthly management accounts, or some such vehicle, to assist the committees in their work.

Public consultation, while laudable, takes place only at stage 1. The Finance Committee had problems at stage 2 and even the expert

witnesses whom we brought in to give assistance and clarity had some difficulty. I hope that the minister will address that.

Perhaps the minister would like to give some thought to a contingency fund. I am always unhappy when contingencies are drawn from various budgets; that gives an opportunity for smokescreens, which we do not want in this Parliament. We want to be able to see clearly what ministers are doing. We must also recognise that honest Jack may not always be our Minister for Finance. It is important for whoever succeeds to that role, whatever end of the bench he currently sits at—I do not know, as I am not the First Minister—that what we do today progresses in a constructive manner.

In conclusion, I simply remind the First Minister—at least I would like to do so, but he is not here—of his words at the opening of the Parliament about Government openness and accountability.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C712843", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27145, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 223.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 223.0, "ID": 27145, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 235.0, "ContributionID": 712843, "EditedText": "Ten members have indicated their desire to speak. Any other members who want to participate should press their buttons now.", "EditedTextHTML": "Ten members have indicated their desire to speak. Any other members who want to participate should press their buttons now.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C712850", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27145, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 223.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 223.0, "ID": 27145, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 254.0, "ContributionID": 712850, "EditedText": "Under the terms of the business motion, we now move to the winding-up speeches.", "EditedTextHTML": "Under the terms of the business motion, we now move to the winding-up speeches.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2152E53P75C712851", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27145, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 223.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 223.0, "ID": 27145, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnston, Nick", "ID": 2152, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nick Johnston", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Nick Johnston (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 257.0, "ContributionID": 712851, "EditedText": "I am pleased to be speaking at the final stage of this bill. Like Andrew Welsh, I think that in it we have laid the financial foundations for the governance of Scotland and for proper scrutiny. Two points have emerged from this process.First, we have exposed the consistent underspend of the Scottish Office. I hope that by exposing that underspend we will make better use in future of the £16 billion block grant. Secondly, we have the chance to ensure that every public body that spends public money does so in the bright light. Perhaps we will be able to ensure better and more effective use of public funds. My colleague, David Davidson, spoke at length on the financial sections of the bill, so I will not dwell on that. I welcome the establishment of Audit Scotland and give the good wishes of the Parliament and the Audit Committee to the staff of the National Audit Office and the Accounts Commission. I hope that the bringing together of those two bodies is a smooth transition. We also welcome the transfer of audit of health boards and trusts to the Auditor General for Scotland. Speaking of the Auditor General, I was honoured to be asked to play a part in the appointment of that august gentleman. The calibre of all the candidates was extremely high. I wish to put on record again the Conservative party's concerns that the bill, in broad terms, will not embrace the allocation of £6.4 billion to local authorities. I know that the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities has highlighted the need for an independent accounts commission that is free from political influence. Perhaps now we may get the openness that will ensure that the Executive does not keep constantly recycling, under the guise of new expenditure, money that has already been committed. Finally, as time is tight, I want to add my thanks to Sarah Davidson and all the clerks to the Finance Committee and the Audit Committee for giving us guiding light and showing us the way through often stumbling footsteps. I commend to the chamber the patience that the clerks showed to people who, like me, have not been involved in this process before. I commend the bill to the chamber—it is a good bill and I have been proud to take part in its formation.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am pleased to be speaking at the final stage of this bill. Like Andrew Welsh, I think that in it we have laid the financial foundations for the governance of Scotland and for proper scrutiny.

Two points have emerged from this process.

First, we have exposed the consistent underspend of the Scottish Office. I hope that by exposing that underspend we will make better use in future of the £16 billion block grant.

Secondly, we have the chance to ensure that every public body that spends public money does so in the bright light. Perhaps we will be able to ensure better and more effective use of public funds. My colleague, David Davidson, spoke at length on the financial sections of the bill, so I will not dwell on that.

I welcome the establishment of Audit Scotland and give the good wishes of the Parliament and the Audit Committee to the staff of the National Audit Office and the Accounts Commission. I hope that the bringing together of those two bodies is a smooth transition.

We also welcome the transfer of audit of health boards and trusts to the Auditor General for Scotland. Speaking of the Auditor General, I was honoured to be asked to play a part in the appointment of that august gentleman. The calibre of all the candidates was extremely high.

I wish to put on record again the Conservative party's concerns that the bill, in broad terms, will not embrace the allocation of £6.4 billion to local authorities. I know that the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities has highlighted the need for an independent accounts commission that is free from political influence. Perhaps now we may get the openness that will ensure that the Executive does not keep constantly recycling, under the guise of new expenditure, money that has already been committed.

Finally, as time is tight, I want to add my thanks to Sarah Davidson and all the clerks to the Finance Committee and the Audit Committee for giving us guiding light and showing us the way through often stumbling footsteps. I commend to the chamber the patience that the clerks showed to people who, like me, have not been involved in this process before. I commend the bill to the chamber—it is a good bill and I have been proud to take part in its formation.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C712855", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27145, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 223.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 223.0, "ID": 27145, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 267.0, "ContributionID": 712855, "EditedText": "I agree with that and confirm that we want to make the process work. The partnership agreement said that the people of Scotland wanted open, stable and responsible government, fully accountable to a modern, representative Parliament. The Scottish Labour and Scottish Liberal Democrat partners said that they wanted innovative government that was open and that they welcomed from any source good ideas that encouraged participation. Those statements built on the work of the consultative steering group, which said that the Scottish Parliament should be accessible, open and responsive and should develop procedures that made possible a participative approach to the development, consideration and scrutiny of policies and legislation. That is what we have done today and I commit the Executive to working towards that. This is a good bill, a Scottish bill, and the first in our programme for government to complete its parliamentary passage. It was made in Scotland and it is characterised by timeless Scottish values: public service, probity and democracy. It contains rights and responsibilities for all of us in this chamber and I am honoured to ask members to vote for it today.", "EditedTextHTML": "I agree with that and confirm that we want to make the process work.

The partnership agreement said that the people of Scotland wanted open, stable and responsible government, fully accountable to a modern, representative Parliament. The Scottish Labour and Scottish Liberal Democrat partners said that they wanted innovative government that was open and that they welcomed from any source good ideas that encouraged participation. Those statements built on the work of the consultative steering group, which said that the Scottish Parliament should be accessible, open and responsive and should develop procedures that made possible a participative approach to the development, consideration and scrutiny of policies and legislation. That is what we have done today and I commit the Executive to working towards that.

This is a good bill, a Scottish bill, and the first in our programme for government to complete its parliamentary passage. It was made in Scotland and it is characterised by timeless Scottish values: public service, probity and democracy. It contains rights and responsibilities for all of us in this chamber and I am honoured to ask members to vote for it today.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1752E75P296C712864", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Co-operative and Mutual Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27147, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 278.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 278.0, "ID": 27147, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jamieson, Cathy", "ID": 1752, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Cathy Jamieson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Cathy Jamieson (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 284.0, "ContributionID": 712864, "EditedText": "It is a privilege to speak as the convener of the Labour and Co-operative group of MSPs. I must start by declaring an interest. I am a member of the Co-operative party. It is somewhat strange that it is the only political party whose manifesto says that every time we speak on something, we will declare our interest. I hope that the Procedures Committee, the Standards Committee and the Parliament will address that issue and resolve the situation. I welcome the co-operators, from various strands of the Co-operative movement, who have come along today to listen to the debate in the public gallery, and I thank the many people who have stayed behind to hear this debate on an important issue. We have heard a lot of talk about finance. I am going to talk about finance from a slightly different perspective. We have heard a lot of talk about the passing of the bill being an historic event. I want to put it on record that this is also an historic occasion for the Co-operative party and the co-operative movement in Scotland. Most members will know that co-operation is not new. There is a long history of ordinary people working together for the common good, which some of my colleagues will talk about in greater detail. If members think back beyond the Rochdale pioneers, to the Fenwick weavers in Ayrshire and the work that was done by Robert Owen in New Lanark, they will recognise the various strands of co-operation. There are other organisations such as the Co-operative Women's Guild, whose members were among the first to campaign on behalf of women, seeking equal rights, maternity rights and family allowances. The Co-op in Scotland is following its long and distinguished history. Our information from the co-operative Union puts in perspective exactly where co-operation exists in Scotland today. Five co-operative societies are operating nearly 500 Co-op stores, more than 100 funeral homes, 24 travel bureaux, 37 post offices and 17 farms—not a kind of business that people would necessarily associate with the Co-operative movement. Those enterprises are spread throughout the country, from Shotts and Ballater to Brechin, from Dumfries to Dalkeith, and from Stromness to Stornoway. There are Co-op shops in inner cities and suburbs, in towns and villages, in the Highlands and Islands, and in Scotland's rural areas. Nearly 14,000 people in Scotland earn their living working for the Co-op. It is a truly grass- roots organisation that is owned by more than 430,000 Scots and directed by boards that are elected from among the consumer owners. For me, that is the essence of co-operation. Over the past few years, Scottish Co-op has gone further than setting up its own stores in local communities; it has begun to find ways of helping people to help themselves. For several years, it has supported community stores that are managed by local volunteers, by offering consultancy on start-up, developing an on-going retail policy, helping to provide staff training, giving interest-free loans for initial stock, supplying equipment and delivering products. The Co-op has kept co-operatives and stores going in remote areas, often in the islands, and provides a service to consumers in underpopulated areas where there is not enough trade to sustain a commercial store and where the private sector would not have an interest. Based on that experience, schemes have recently been extended to assist smaller self-help projects in the central belt—for example, Fruit Barra, which is part of the Govan healthy eating project, and the North Lanarkshire Federation of Food Co-ops. In July, the latter became a corporate member of the Co-operative Wholesale Society, which is a significant development. Scottish Co-op and the wider Co-operative movement agree with the Scottish Executive that social inclusion is a key issue for Scotland. We have already had discussions with ministers about working in local communities and supporting the work of local volunteers. We welcome the initiatives that have been introduced by the Executive. The Co-op was founded on the self-help principle and continues to believe strongly in that principle. Social inclusion means giving people opportunities, the back-up and the confidence to help themselves—not just in the large co-operative societies, but in other co-operative organisations such as credit unions, food co-ops, housing co-ops and community businesses. I will say a few words about the credit union movement. A recent document from the Local Government Association describes community- based credit unions as \"financial co-ops that offer quality and low cost financial services to their members.\"It continues:\"They can be particularly beneficial to those on low incomes or those excluded from mainstream financial institutions. They can also play an important part in the social regeneration and economic development of communities, as well as being important to anti-poverty and sustainable development initiatives.\" Most people recognise the need for further development of the work of credit unions. A recent study based on research by Liverpool John Moores University highlights the potential of credit unions to play an increasing role in the financial world. All of us involved in the Co-operative movement favour an expansion of that form of common and mutual ownership. That was why in the early days of the Parliament I lodged a question asking us to consider paving the way by setting up some form of credit union. Although there is nobody from the press here to report this—which is significant, given the comments that have appeared in some articles—I want to say, for the record, that a credit union in the Parliament would not be about providing cheap loans to MSPs, but would be about sending out the message that co-operation and mutuality are a fundamental principle that is valued in Scotland, and a way forward that is supported by the Scottish Executive. Today I want to restate the principle of common ownership and mutuality, and to say that it is as relevant today as it ever was. The recent setting up of the Scottish Co-operative and Mutual Forum is important, because it brings together for the first time all strands of co-operatives and mutuals in Scotland. That will enable us to take forward the message and to promote practical alternatives. The forum will provide a focus for the promotion of common and co-operative ownership and will allow us to promote mutuality as an alternative form of ownership of both services and institutions. The continued, sustained and predatory attacks on building societies and other mutual institutions indicate why that is necessary. I want to make a couple of points about my involvement in the Co-operative movement and to give particular credit to its youth wing, the Woodcraft Folk—the organisation that brought me into the movement in the first place. That organisation is about education for social change, as is the wider Co-operative movement. It has put development education into practice in a real and practical way, by linking young people in disadvantaged communities in Scotland with disadvantaged communities across the world. I will draw my remarks to a close to allow other co-operators to contribute. This is the first debate on co-operation in the Scottish Parliament, but it will certainly not be the last. We will seek to ensure that the Executive considers co-operative solutions in all its policy initiatives. In true co-operative tradition, I end by inviting all members to come and join us for a small reception at Parliament Headquarters after the debate.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is a privilege to speak as the convener of the Labour and Co-operative group of MSPs.

I must start by declaring an interest. I am a member of the Co-operative party. It is somewhat strange that it is the only political party whose manifesto says that every time we speak on something, we will declare our interest. I hope that the Procedures Committee, the Standards Committee and the Parliament will address that issue and resolve the situation.

I welcome the co-operators, from various strands of the Co-operative movement, who have come along today to listen to the debate in the public gallery, and I thank the many people who have stayed behind to hear this debate on an important issue.

We have heard a lot of talk about finance. I am going to talk about finance from a slightly different perspective. We have heard a lot of talk about the passing of the bill being an historic event. I want to put it on record that this is also an historic occasion for the Co-operative party and the co-operative movement in Scotland.

Most members will know that co-operation is not new. There is a long history of ordinary people working together for the common good, which some of my colleagues will talk about in greater detail. If members think back beyond the Rochdale pioneers, to the Fenwick weavers in Ayrshire and the work that was done by Robert Owen in New Lanark, they will recognise the various strands of co-operation. There are other organisations such

as the Co-operative Women's Guild, whose members were among the first to campaign on behalf of women, seeking equal rights, maternity rights and family allowances.

The Co-op in Scotland is following its long and distinguished history. Our information from the co-operative Union puts in perspective exactly where co-operation exists in Scotland today. Five co-operative societies are operating nearly 500 Co-op stores, more than 100 funeral homes, 24 travel bureaux, 37 post offices and 17 farms—not a kind of business that people would necessarily associate with the Co-operative movement. Those enterprises are spread throughout the country, from Shotts and Ballater to Brechin, from Dumfries to Dalkeith, and from Stromness to Stornoway. There are Co-op shops in inner cities and suburbs, in towns and villages, in the Highlands and Islands, and in Scotland's rural areas.

Nearly 14,000 people in Scotland earn their living working for the Co-op. It is a truly grass- roots organisation that is owned by more than 430,000 Scots and directed by boards that are elected from among the consumer owners. For me, that is the essence of co-operation.

Over the past few years, Scottish Co-op has gone further than setting up its own stores in local communities; it has begun to find ways of helping people to help themselves. For several years, it has supported community stores that are managed by local volunteers, by offering consultancy on start-up, developing an on-going retail policy, helping to provide staff training, giving interest-free loans for initial stock, supplying equipment and delivering products. The Co-op has kept co-operatives and stores going in remote areas, often in the islands, and provides a service to consumers in underpopulated areas where there is not enough trade to sustain a commercial store and where the private sector would not have an interest.

Based on that experience, schemes have recently been extended to assist smaller self-help projects in the central belt—for example, Fruit Barra, which is part of the Govan healthy eating project, and the North Lanarkshire Federation of Food Co-ops. In July, the latter became a corporate member of the Co-operative Wholesale Society, which is a significant development.

Scottish Co-op and the wider Co-operative movement agree with the Scottish Executive that social inclusion is a key issue for Scotland. We have already had discussions with ministers about working in local communities and supporting the work of local volunteers. We welcome the initiatives that have been introduced by the Executive.

The Co-op was founded on the self-help principle and continues to believe strongly in that principle. Social inclusion means giving people opportunities, the back-up and the confidence to help themselves—not just in the large co-operative societies, but in other co-operative organisations such as credit unions, food co-ops, housing co-ops and community businesses.

I will say a few words about the credit union movement. A recent document from the Local Government Association describes community- based credit unions as

\"financial co-ops that offer quality and low cost financial services to their members.\"

It continues:

\"They can be particularly beneficial to those on low incomes or those excluded from mainstream financial institutions. They can also play an important part in the social regeneration and economic development of communities, as well as being important to anti-poverty and sustainable development initiatives.\"

Most people recognise the need for further development of the work of credit unions. A recent study based on research by Liverpool John Moores University highlights the potential of credit unions to play an increasing role in the financial world.

All of us involved in the Co-operative movement favour an expansion of that form of common and mutual ownership. That was why in the early days of the Parliament I lodged a question asking us to consider paving the way by setting up some form of credit union. Although there is nobody from the press here to report this—which is significant, given the comments that have appeared in some articles—I want to say, for the record, that a credit union in the Parliament would not be about providing cheap loans to MSPs, but would be about sending out the message that co-operation and mutuality are a fundamental principle that is valued in Scotland, and a way forward that is supported by the Scottish Executive.

Today I want to restate the principle of common ownership and mutuality, and to say that it is as relevant today as it ever was. The recent setting up of the Scottish Co-operative and Mutual Forum is important, because it brings together for the first time all strands of co-operatives and mutuals in Scotland. That will enable us to take forward the message and to promote practical alternatives. The forum will provide a focus for the promotion of common and co-operative ownership and will allow us to promote mutuality as an alternative form of ownership of both services and institutions. The continued, sustained and predatory attacks on building societies and other mutual institutions indicate why that is necessary.

I want to make a couple of points about my involvement in the Co-operative movement and to

give particular credit to its youth wing, the Woodcraft Folk—the organisation that brought me into the movement in the first place. That organisation is about education for social change, as is the wider Co-operative movement. It has put development education into practice in a real and practical way, by linking young people in disadvantaged communities in Scotland with disadvantaged communities across the world.

I will draw my remarks to a close to allow other co-operators to contribute. This is the first debate on co-operation in the Scottish Parliament, but it will certainly not be the last. We will seek to ensure that the Executive considers co-operative solutions in all its policy initiatives. In true co-operative tradition, I end by inviting all members to come and join us for a small reception at Parliament Headquarters after the debate.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1814E135P516C712866", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Co-operative and Mutual Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27147, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 278.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 278.0, "ID": 27147, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Fabiani, Linda", "ID": 1814, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Linda Fabiani", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Linda Fabiani (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 289.0, "ContributionID": 712866, "EditedText": "I congratulate Cathy Jamieson on drawing Parliament's attention to an extremely important sector of Scottish society and—which is sometimes overlooked—an important part of the Scottish economy. Scotland has played a leading role in developing co-operative and mutual institutions—the Trustee Savings Bank, public lending libraries, parochial schools, working-class housing societies and, most recently, rural community co-operatives. The Executive has recently drawn attention to the increasing exclusion of many communities from the rest of society. The withdrawal of the banking industry from any kind of presence in Scotland's most deprived communities undermines the financial sector's argument for reducing regulation of its activities. Like Cathy, I have been pleased by the focus on the potential of credit unions to fill some of the gaps that have been left by the banks. I, too, am a great supporter of credit unions and would like to see a steady increase in the proportion of the population that has access to them. Another mutual sector that is close to my heart is the housing association movement. I know that members from all parties hold the movement in high regard, and I have heard many individuals refer to the valuable work that is done by their local housing associations and co-operatives. I would like to make a plea for members to turn the rhetoric of support for the movement into active support. I address that plea in particular to the back benchers of the governing parties who, in the press of other priorities, may have overlooked just how much the actions of the Executive are damaging housing associations and co-operatives. I have time to refer to only two of the most significant ways in which the Executive's actions are damaging. The first—and perhaps the most easily demonstrated—is the withdrawal of resources from housing associations and co-operatives. Over the period of the expenditure plan that was published by the Minister for Finance, the resources available to Scottish Homes will drop from £319 million to £264 million—a reduction of almost 20 per cent. That will cause major difficulties, not just for the organisation, but for the people who depend on it. I do not have time to address the second element of the Executive's approach, but the policy is disastrous. I ask the Minister for Communities, who basks in the title of the listening minister, to try trusting communities and to listen to them properly before forcing decisions on a no-choice option. Please abandon the big-bang approach, and invest in a proper success story. It might not go down well in John Wheatley House, but it will go down well in John Wheatley's home of Shettleston, which is now represented by the Deputy Minister for Local Government.", "EditedTextHTML": "I congratulate Cathy Jamieson on drawing Parliament's attention to an extremely important sector of Scottish society and—which is sometimes overlooked—an important part of the Scottish economy.

Scotland has played a leading role in developing co-operative and mutual institutions—the Trustee Savings Bank, public lending libraries, parochial schools, working-class housing societies and, most recently, rural community co-operatives.

The Executive has recently drawn attention to the increasing exclusion of many communities from the rest of society. The withdrawal of the banking industry from any kind of presence in Scotland's most deprived communities undermines the financial sector's argument for reducing regulation of its activities. Like Cathy, I have been pleased by the focus on the potential of credit unions to fill some of the gaps that have been left by the banks. I, too, am a great supporter of credit unions and would like to see a steady increase in the proportion of the population that has access to them.

Another mutual sector that is close to my heart is the housing association movement. I know that members from all parties hold the movement in high regard, and I have heard many individuals refer to the valuable work that is done by their local housing associations and co-operatives. I would like to make a plea for members to turn the rhetoric of support for the movement into active support. I address that plea in particular to the back benchers of the governing parties who, in the press of other priorities, may have overlooked just how much the actions of the Executive are damaging housing associations and co-operatives.

I have time to refer to only two of the most significant ways in which the Executive's actions are damaging. The first—and perhaps the most easily demonstrated—is the withdrawal of resources from housing associations and co-operatives. Over the period of the expenditure plan that was published by the Minister for Finance, the resources available to Scottish Homes will drop from £319 million to £264 million—a reduction of almost 20 per cent. That will cause major difficulties, not just for the organisation, but for the people who depend on it.

I do not have time to address the second element of the Executive's approach, but the policy is disastrous.

I ask the Minister for Communities, who basks in the title of the listening minister, to try trusting communities and to listen to them properly before forcing decisions on a no-choice option. Please abandon the big-bang approach, and invest in a proper success story. It might not go down well in John Wheatley House, but it will go down well in John Wheatley's home of Shettleston, which is now represented by the Deputy Minister for Local Government.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1973E119P326C712869", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Co-operative and Mutual Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27147, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 278.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 278.0, "ID": 27147, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gorrie, Donald", "ID": 1973, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Donald Gorrie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Donald Gorrie (Central Scotland) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 298.0, "ContributionID": 712869, "EditedText": "I applaud the motion and the co-operative principle. I want to raise two points. First, our tax and social security system encourages many people to enter the black economy. It would be possible to make the rules more flexible in many areas to encourage small co-operative ventures in poorer urban and rural areas to provide interesting and useful work for people in a way that did not unfairly impinge on their benefits. If we were more relaxed, perhaps a light grey economy might replace the black economy to everyone's benefit. However, the co-operative principle of a community working together for the community's benefit should be behind that. Secondly, the co-operative movement produced an extremely good pamphlet on running football clubs as co-operatives, which is a scheme that has had great success on the continent. Rhona Brankin kindly answered my question about the subject. Perhaps we should consider encouraging some of our football clubs to become co-operatives, which would bring all kinds of benefits to the community. The community would feel more involved and the scheme might also resolve some of the clubs' financial problems. I wish the co-operative movement the best of luck.", "EditedTextHTML": "I applaud the motion and the co-operative principle. I want to raise two points.

First, our tax and social security system encourages many people to enter the black economy. It would be possible to make the rules more flexible in many areas to encourage small co-operative ventures in poorer urban and rural areas to provide interesting and useful work for people in a way that did not unfairly impinge on their benefits. If we were more relaxed, perhaps a light grey economy might replace the black economy to everyone's benefit. However, the co-operative principle of a community working together for the community's benefit should be behind that.

Secondly, the co-operative movement produced an extremely good pamphlet on running football clubs as co-operatives, which is a scheme that has had great success on the continent. Rhona Brankin kindly answered my question about the subject. Perhaps we should consider encouraging some of our football clubs to become co-operatives, which would bring all kinds of benefits to the community. The community would feel more involved and the scheme might also resolve some of the clubs' financial problems.

I wish the co-operative movement the best of luck.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1854E38P164C712870", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Co-operative and Mutual Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27147, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 278.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 278.0, "ID": 27147, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Godman, Trish", "ID": 1854, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Renfrewshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Trish Godman", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Trish Godman (West Renfrewshire) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 301.0, "ContributionID": 712870, "EditedText": "My mother's co-operative number was 51474 and it is very handy for passwords in these days of e- commerce. I have changed it now, so people will not be able to find out all my secrets. That number will never leave me; members can see how easily it comes to me. It represented a way that working-class men and women could save. They bought their goods in the local co-ops and waited with bated breath for the divvy either during the Glasgow fair or at Christmas. I remember the word menadge—I will not say that we would be able to run one in Parliament— which is another form of working-class saving. However, we have moved from that system to the credit union, which gives people not only the power to save but, more important, the power to borrow. That means that people are socially included in a way that they were not before. We should congratulate activists in credit unions, such as the vibrant credit union in Port Glasgow. However, they should be as widespread in this country as they are in Australia and the Republic of Ireland. For example, my son Mark, who lives in Sydney, banks with the Resources Credit Union. With the advent of out-of-town shopping in large supermarkets, the retail and food co-operatives now have a unique and essential place. As people might have no means to travel outwith the town and corner shops might be overpriced, local co-operatives provide fresh, healthy and wholesome food at reasonable prices. Last night, while watching a TV programme that compared the health of kids in the 1950s to today's kids, I thought that most parents in the 1950s would have shopped in the local co-op. Not only were the co-ops a form of social inclusion, they provided a good and appropriate local service that contributed to the health of the nation. When I was a single parent living in a difficult-to-let house in Pollok, a housing co-operative provided me with my first move into the housing market, which gave me the opportunity to be socially included rather than excluded. Cathy Jamieson has to be congratulated for bringing the motion to the chamber. The bringing together of co-operative movements across Scotland will make the movement much stronger and more cohesive, which can only be good for the promotion of social inclusion and community involvement.", "EditedTextHTML": "My mother's co-operative number was 51474 and it is

very handy for passwords in these days of e- commerce. I have changed it now, so people will not be able to find out all my secrets.

That number will never leave me; members can see how easily it comes to me. It represented a way that working-class men and women could save. They bought their goods in the local co-ops and waited with bated breath for the divvy either during the Glasgow fair or at Christmas.

I remember the word menadge—I will not say that we would be able to run one in Parliament— which is another form of working-class saving. However, we have moved from that system to the credit union, which gives people not only the power to save but, more important, the power to borrow. That means that people are socially included in a way that they were not before.

We should congratulate activists in credit unions, such as the vibrant credit union in Port Glasgow. However, they should be as widespread in this country as they are in Australia and the Republic of Ireland. For example, my son Mark, who lives in Sydney, banks with the Resources Credit Union.

With the advent of out-of-town shopping in large supermarkets, the retail and food co-operatives now have a unique and essential place. As people might have no means to travel outwith the town and corner shops might be overpriced, local co-operatives provide fresh, healthy and wholesome food at reasonable prices. Last night, while watching a TV programme that compared the health of kids in the 1950s to today's kids, I thought that most parents in the 1950s would have shopped in the local co-op. Not only were the co-ops a form of social inclusion, they provided a good and appropriate local service that contributed to the health of the nation.

When I was a single parent living in a difficult-to-let house in Pollok, a housing co-operative provided me with my first move into the housing market, which gave me the opportunity to be socially included rather than excluded. Cathy Jamieson has to be congratulated for bringing the motion to the chamber. The bringing together of co-operative movements across Scotland will make the movement much stronger and more cohesive, which can only be good for the promotion of social inclusion and community involvement.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C712807", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 167.0, "ContributionID": 712807, "EditedText": "On a point of order, Presiding Officer. You have just put amendments 25 and 26 to the chamber for a vote. However, unless I have been sleeping, which is always a possibility, amendments 18, 19, 20 and 21 earlier in the grouping have not been put to the vote. Can you clarify that?", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order, Presiding Officer. You have just put amendments 25 and 26 to the chamber for a vote. However, unless I have been sleeping, which is always a possibility, amendments 18, 19, 20 and 21 earlier in the grouping have not been put to the vote. Can you clarify that?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:28:33.8639665+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C712755", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 76.0, "ContributionID": 712755, "EditedText": "I thank the minister for his comments and I compliment him on the way that he has handled the bill and the arrangements with the Finance Committee. The comments that I will make today are designed to draw attention to some limited problems, which have emerged from the way in which those matters have been handled. I want to provide clarity for Parliament regarding the way in which it handles such issues in the future. Let us examine the history of the written agreements to which the minister has referred. The first draft was issued to the Finance Committee on Friday 22 October for it to debate on Tuesday 26 October. I say that not to make pedantic points of detail, but to raise the point that at the outset of the process concern was expressed by members of the Finance Committee about the amount of time that was available for consideration of those written understandings. In column 45 of the Official Report of the Finance Committee meeting on 26 October those comments were made, not by me, but by Keith Raffan—a member of the Finance Committee. Once the Finance Committee had provided its views on those issues, the minister issued revised drafts on, I think, 24 November, which was last Wednesday. Those amended drafts have not been considered or agreed by the Finance Committee. Throughout consideration of the bill, the minister has invited us to accept that substantial aspects of financial procedures, in which this Parliament should engage, should not be included in the bill but should be left to written understandings. We are at the stage 3 debate, being asked to agree the contents of the bill, when the Finance Committee and its convener cannot come to Parliament and say that they are content with the contents of the written understandings. That suggests to me that we are being asked to give commitments today when we have not seen all the documents that should have been seen and scrutinised by the Finance Committee. Therefore, a serious parliamentary issue is at the heart of the amendment that we have lodged. Amendment 23 asks the Executive to agree to nothing more than what it has agreed to already, with one additional point—simply to record in the bill that there is a requirement for such written understandings to exist. I accept without reservation all that the minister said about the need for us to have flexibility in our financial procedures and not to set those procedures in stone. However, I want to put an obligation on the Executive, on its successors and on its successors' successors, to strike an agreement with the Finance Committee and the Parliament about the way in which we conduct our procedural consideration of these matters. All we ask of the minister is that he formalises a process to which the Executive has consented, and that he inserts the agreement in principle on that point into the bill. I hope that the purpose of the amendment finds favour with many members of the Executive parties who, I know, strongly support the Parliament's committee system. The amendment's purpose is to protect the position of the Finance Committee and its ability to execute properly the functions that it has been given in the first written understanding—functions that we do not want to be eroded in any way in future. I took part in a debate last night in Dundee, with Mr McAllion, Mr Raffan, Mr Gallie, Mr Harper and various other people, during which Mr Raffan made the point that Parliament would today consider a world-class finance bill. He was absolutely right—the bill is a tremendous step forward. Before arriving at this stage we have given the Executive clear support throughout the Finance Committee's consideration of the bill. However, there is an important issue on financial procedures that we are being asked to consent to, in principle, without there being enough protection for Parliament in the bill—the one point on which we seek the Executive's agreement. The minister said that the amendment would give the written agreements legislative force—it would not. The SNP wants to give the agreements a status in legislation that will bind the Executive and Parliament to certain obligations. He said that the terms of the agreements had to be agreed by Parliament—that is absolutely right—and that he plans to bring the agreements to Parliament for agreement. His final remark was on the ability of the Executive to impose an agreement. However, that is in no way covered by subsection (2) of our amendment. Subsection (3) adequately covers the need for us to secure agreement between the Executive and Parliament on the issue. There is nothing in what the minister has said so far that, in my view, questions the validity in principle of our amendment. As I said earlier, the written understandings that we are considering have not been agreed by—or signed off by—the Finance Committee. However, members are being asked to sign off a bill without the consideration that is part of the process being completed. I therefore suggest that the Minister for Finance consider the opportunity that is available to him under rule 9.8.5 of the standing orders. As the member proposing the bill, he can adjourn stage 3 consideration of the bill—in order to give proper weight to the views of Parliament—if he agrees in principle with an amendment that has been brought forward, but is not absolutely satisfied by the details of the amendment. I make that helpful suggestion to address the way in which the minister could wind up this afternoon's debate.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the minister for his comments and I compliment him on the way that he has handled the bill and the arrangements with the Finance Committee. The comments that I will make today are designed to draw attention to some limited problems, which have emerged from the way in which those matters have been handled. I want to provide clarity for Parliament regarding the way in which it handles such issues in the future.

Let us examine the history of the written agreements to which the minister has referred. The first draft was issued to the Finance Committee on Friday 22 October for it to debate on Tuesday 26 October. I say that not to make pedantic points of detail, but to raise the point that at the outset of the process concern was expressed by members of the Finance Committee about the amount of time that was available for consideration of those written understandings.

In column 45 of the Official Report of the Finance Committee meeting on 26 October those comments were made, not by me, but by Keith Raffan—a member of the Finance Committee.

Once the Finance Committee had provided its views on those issues, the minister issued revised drafts on, I think, 24 November, which was last Wednesday. Those amended drafts have not been considered or agreed by the Finance Committee. Throughout consideration of the bill, the minister has invited us to accept that substantial aspects of financial procedures, in which this Parliament should engage, should not be included in the bill but should be left to written understandings. We are at the stage 3 debate, being asked to agree the contents of the bill, when the Finance Committee and its convener cannot come to Parliament and say that they are content with the contents of the written understandings. That suggests to me that we are being asked to give commitments today when we have not seen all the documents that should have been seen and scrutinised by the Finance Committee. Therefore, a serious parliamentary issue is at the heart of the amendment that we have lodged.

Amendment 23 asks the Executive to agree to nothing more than what it has agreed to already, with one additional point—simply to record in the bill that there is a requirement for such written understandings to exist. I accept without reservation all that the minister said about the need for us to have flexibility in our financial procedures and not to set those procedures in stone. However, I want to put an obligation on the Executive, on its successors and on its successors' successors, to strike an agreement with the Finance Committee and the Parliament about the way in which we conduct our procedural consideration of these matters.

All we ask of the minister is that he formalises a process to which the Executive has consented, and that he inserts the agreement in principle on that point into the bill. I hope that the purpose of the amendment finds favour with many members of the Executive parties who, I know, strongly support the Parliament's committee system. The amendment's purpose is to protect the position of the Finance Committee and its ability to execute properly the functions that it has been given in the first written understanding—functions that we do not want to be eroded in any way in future.

I took part in a debate last night in Dundee, with Mr McAllion, Mr Raffan, Mr Gallie, Mr Harper and various other people, during which Mr Raffan made the point that Parliament would today consider a world-class finance bill. He was absolutely right—the bill is a tremendous step forward. Before arriving at this stage we have given the Executive clear support throughout the Finance Committee's consideration of the bill. However, there is an important issue on financial procedures that we are being asked to consent to, in principle, without there being enough protection for Parliament in the bill—the one point on which we seek the Executive's agreement.

The minister said that the amendment would give the written agreements legislative force—it would not. The SNP wants to give the agreements a status in legislation that will bind the Executive and Parliament to certain obligations. He said that the terms of the agreements had to be agreed by Parliament—that is absolutely right—and that he plans to bring the agreements to Parliament for agreement. His final remark was on the ability of the Executive to impose an agreement. However, that is in no way covered by subsection (2) of our amendment. Subsection (3) adequately covers the need for us to secure agreement between the Executive and Parliament on the issue.

There is nothing in what the minister has said so far that, in my view, questions the validity in principle of our amendment. As I said earlier, the written understandings that we are considering have not been agreed by—or signed off by—the Finance Committee. However, members are being asked to sign off a bill without the consideration that is part of the process being completed.

I therefore suggest that the Minister for Finance consider the opportunity that is available to him under rule 9.8.5 of the standing orders. As the member proposing the bill, he can adjourn stage 3

consideration of the bill—in order to give proper weight to the views of Parliament—if he agrees in principle with an amendment that has been brought forward, but is not absolutely satisfied by the details of the amendment. I make that helpful suggestion to address the way in which the minister could wind up this afternoon's debate.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:27:39.0629519+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C712732", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Beef on the Bone", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27142, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27142, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fergus Ewing (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 30.0, "ContributionID": 712732, "EditedText": "Does the minister agree that, for all of us, public health is paramount? However, does she accept that even now there is no clear- cut, unequivocal scientific evidence of a causal connection between consumption of material infected with BSE and contraction of CJD?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the minister agree that, for all of us, public health is paramount? However, does she accept that even now there is no clear- cut, unequivocal scientific evidence of a causal connection between consumption of material infected with BSE and contraction of CJD?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:01:03.9549326+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2180E179P471C712724", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Beef on the Bone", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27142, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27142, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lochhead, Richard", "ID": 2180, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Lochhead", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Richard Lochhead (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 14.0, "ContributionID": 712724, "EditedText": "The Scottish National party joins the beef industry in welcoming the long-awaited announcement on what today's The Press and Journal called the \"beef-on-the-bone farce\". It will certainly bring farmers some cheer in time for Christmas, but will the Minister for Health and Community Care detail the changes in scientific evidence and in the statistics that have persuaded the Executive to lift that unnecessary ban? The minister said that consumers should be given the opportunity to choose—why did she not believe that before today, given that the sale of beef on the bone posed no more risk to human health than many other products on sale? Does she accept that the Government's delay in lifting the ban has inflicted further damage on Scotland's beef industry and that it now deserves maximum support to enable it to get back into its former markets?", "EditedTextHTML": "The Scottish National party joins the beef industry in welcoming the long-awaited announcement on what today's The Press and Journal called the \"beef-on-the-bone farce\". It will certainly bring farmers some cheer in time for Christmas, but will the Minister for Health and Community Care detail the changes in scientific evidence and in the statistics that have persuaded the Executive to lift that unnecessary ban?

The minister said that consumers should be given the opportunity to choose—why did she not believe that before today, given that the sale of beef on the bone posed no more risk to human health than many other products on sale? Does she accept that the Government's delay in lifting the ban has inflicted further damage on Scotland's beef industry and that it now deserves maximum support to enable it to get back into its former markets?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:55.944805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C712722", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Beef on the Bone", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27142, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27142, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 9.0, "ContributionID": 712722, "EditedText": "There will now be a statement on the beef-on-the-bone regulations. The minister will take questions at the end of her statement, and there should be no interventions during it. The minister has 10 minutes.", "EditedTextHTML": "There will now be a statement on the beef-on-the-bone regulations. The minister will take questions at the end of her statement, and there should be no interventions during it. The minister has 10 minutes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C712723", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Beef on the Bone", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27142, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27142, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 12.0, "ContributionID": 712723, "EditedText": "Several members have asked that I make this statement today; I welcome the opportunity to inform the Scottish Parliament directly about the decisions announced yesterday on beef on the bone. I would like both to explain the thinking behind the announcement and to set it in the wider context of food safety policy. We have consistently said from the earliest days of the partnership Administration that we would lift the ban on beef on the bone as soon as medical advice said that it was safe to do so. We said that in the partnership agreement document; we repeated it in our programme for government. We have adhered to that principle and today the promise is fulfilled. In my statement on 22 September, I informed members of the Executive's decision to retain in full the ban on sale of beef on the bone, which was introduced in December 1997. September's decision was made on the basis of medical advice that I received at that time from Professor Sir David Carter, chief medical officer for Scotland. My statement also indicated, however, that while there were a number of uncertainties, in relation to BSE infectivity of certain tissues—dorsal root ganglia and bone marrow—and in relation to the rate of maternal transmission, the position would be kept under regular review. In particular, new evidence, specifically on maternal transmission, would become available in November. I can confirm that the position has been kept under active scrutiny and also that the updated predictions from Professor Roy Anderson's group in the Wellcome Trust Centre for the Epidemiology of Infectious Disease at the University of Oxford have now been made available to the chief medical officers. Shortly after receipt of the updated information, the four UK CMOs met yesterday morning and agreed on joint advice which they issued to ministers in the four UK departments. As has been done before, that advice has now been published and is available to members from the Scottish Parliament information centre. Having reviewed the most up-to-date information available, the UK CMOs have advised that the current circumstances now allow the beef-on-the-bone ban to be lifted for retail sales, so allowing consumer choice. The advice goes on to indicate that, in view of continuing uncertainty about the infectivity of bone marrow, the retention of the ban on the use of bones for manufactured and processed products would be prudent. Finally, the advice emphasises the need for continued rigorous controls, continued monitoring of the human-variant Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease epidemic and close monitoring of new research results as they become available. I am pleased to inform members today that the Scottish Executive accepted that advice immediately and has acted swiftly and decisively, in accordance with our stated policy. A consultation document was issued yesterday to approximately 100 interested organisations, proposing a lifting of the bone-in-beef ban on visible cuts of beef sold through retail outlets. Copies of the consultation document are also available from SPICe. When the ban is lifted, consumers will be able to choose whether to purchase and consume such products. The proposal is also to lift the ban on beef and beef products supplied in restaurants and other catering outlets, where consumers will be able to ask whether the beef or beef products supplied have been prepared from bone-in beef. Restaurant owners and caterers will be encouraged to make that information available. I stress that I want the matter to be dealt with as soon as possible. Our aim is for a short period of consultation; the consultation document that we have issued includes a copy of the draft regulations to implement the proposals. I intend that the regulations should be laid and implemented quickly, so that the ban will be lifted before the Parliament goes into recess. Scottish consumers will be able to purchase rib roast and T-bone steaks before Christmas. The ban will be retained on the use of bone-in beef in the production of manufactured beef products, as consumers in such cases will have no easily verifiable information on whether such products have been prepared from bone-in beef. That residual ban will also be lifted as soon as the medical advice indicates that it is safe to do so. I firmly believe that our approach on this high- profile food safety issue has been the right one. The first priority of the Executive—consistently and clearly—has been the protection of public health. Throughout, our policy has been guided directly by our medical advice. Food safety is not—and should not be—a party political issue. It is exclusively a public health issue. Of course, a balance has to be struck.Consumers must be given the opportunity to choose, provided that they are in a position to make informed choices. Again, that is what we propose. Where consumers have sufficient and reliable information to make an informed choice, the proposal is that the ban will be lifted. Where uncertainties remain, and where there are doubts about the public health implications of the use of beef bones in manufactured or processed goods, the ban has been retained. That is a prudent approach. Consumers can be reassured that we are taking the most responsible approach and that we have—and will continue to—put their health interests above all else. Finally, we have acted swiftly and decisively, once further evidence of medical advice has been received, on the same day as receipt of the advice. This issue underscores some of the key issues that will guide future policy under the new food standards agency: protection of public health will be paramount; policy will be based on the best scientific and medical advice available to us; responses will be proportionate in the light of the risks involved; and consumers will be able to exercise informed choice. Such an approach is in both the short-term and the long-term interests of everyone in Scotland: the consumer and the producer. This announcement is good news for consumers and another step forward for the beef industry in this country. In the end, everyone gains from a soundly based food safety policy. I hope that this statement serves to explain to members the Executive's policy on beef on the bone, set against the key objectives of food safety policy more generally. I will be pleased to answer any questions that members might have.", "EditedTextHTML": "Several members have asked that I make this statement today; I welcome the opportunity to inform the Scottish Parliament directly about the decisions announced yesterday on beef on the bone. I would like both to explain the thinking behind the announcement and to set it in the wider context of food safety policy.

We have consistently said from the earliest days of the partnership Administration that we would lift the ban on beef on the bone as soon as medical advice said that it was safe to do so. We said that in the partnership agreement document; we repeated it in our programme for government. We have adhered to that principle and today the promise is fulfilled.

In my statement on 22 September, I informed members of the Executive's decision to retain in full the ban on sale of beef on the bone, which was introduced in December 1997. September's decision was made on the basis of medical advice that I received at that time from Professor Sir David Carter, chief medical officer for Scotland.

My statement also indicated, however, that while there were a number of uncertainties, in relation to BSE infectivity of certain tissues—dorsal root ganglia and bone marrow—and in relation to the rate of maternal transmission, the position would be kept under regular review. In particular, new evidence, specifically on maternal transmission, would become available in November.

I can confirm that the position has been kept under active scrutiny and also that the updated predictions from Professor Roy Anderson's group in the Wellcome Trust Centre for the Epidemiology of Infectious Disease at the University of Oxford have now been made available to the chief medical officers. Shortly after receipt of the updated information, the four UK CMOs met yesterday morning and agreed on joint advice which they issued to ministers in the four UK departments. As has been done before, that advice has now been published and is available to members from the Scottish Parliament information centre.

Having reviewed the most up-to-date information available, the UK CMOs have advised that the current circumstances now allow the beef-on-the-bone ban to be lifted for retail sales, so allowing consumer choice. The advice goes on to indicate that, in view of continuing uncertainty about the infectivity of bone marrow, the retention of the ban on the use of bones for manufactured and processed products would be prudent. Finally, the advice emphasises the need for continued rigorous controls, continued monitoring of the human-variant Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease epidemic and close monitoring of new research results as they become available.

I am pleased to inform members today that the Scottish Executive accepted that advice immediately and has acted swiftly and decisively, in accordance with our stated policy. A consultation document was issued yesterday to approximately 100 interested organisations, proposing a lifting of the bone-in-beef ban on visible cuts of beef sold through retail outlets. Copies of the consultation document are also available from SPICe.

When the ban is lifted, consumers will be able to choose whether to purchase and consume such products. The proposal is also to lift the ban on beef and beef products supplied in restaurants and other catering outlets, where consumers will be able to ask whether the beef or beef products supplied have been prepared from bone-in beef. Restaurant owners and caterers will be encouraged to make that information available.

I stress that I want the matter to be dealt with as soon as possible. Our aim is for a short period of consultation; the consultation document that we have issued includes a copy of the draft regulations to implement the proposals. I intend that the regulations should be laid and implemented quickly, so that the ban will be lifted before the Parliament goes into recess. Scottish consumers will be able to purchase rib roast and T-bone steaks before Christmas.

The ban will be retained on the use of bone-in beef in the production of manufactured beef products, as consumers in such cases will have no easily verifiable information on whether such products have been prepared from bone-in beef. That residual ban will also be lifted as soon as the medical advice indicates that it is safe to do so.

I firmly believe that our approach on this high- profile food safety issue has been the right one. The first priority of the Executive—consistently and clearly—has been the protection of public health. Throughout, our policy has been guided directly by our medical advice. Food safety is not—and should not be—a party political issue. It is exclusively a public health issue.

Of course, a balance has to be struck.

Consumers must be given the opportunity to choose, provided that they are in a position to make informed choices. Again, that is what we propose. Where consumers have sufficient and reliable information to make an informed choice, the proposal is that the ban will be lifted. Where uncertainties remain, and where there are doubts about the public health implications of the use of beef bones in manufactured or processed goods, the ban has been retained.

That is a prudent approach. Consumers can be reassured that we are taking the most responsible approach and that we have—and will continue to—put their health interests above all else. Finally, we have acted swiftly and decisively, once further evidence of medical advice has been received, on the same day as receipt of the advice.

This issue underscores some of the key issues that will guide future policy under the new food standards agency: protection of public health will be paramount; policy will be based on the best scientific and medical advice available to us; responses will be proportionate in the light of the risks involved; and consumers will be able to exercise informed choice.

Such an approach is in both the short-term and the long-term interests of everyone in Scotland: the consumer and the producer. This announcement is good news for consumers and another step forward for the beef industry in this country. In the end, everyone gains from a soundly based food safety policy.

I hope that this statement serves to explain to members the Executive's policy on beef on the bone, set against the key objectives of food safety policy more generally. I will be pleased to answer any questions that members might have.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C712725", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Beef on the Bone", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27142, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27142, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 16.0, "ContributionID": 712725, "EditedText": "I said clearly in my statement that food safety is not a party political issue, and I insist that it should not be so. I repeat, in case the member was not listening earlier, that the Scottish Executive has said from the outset that our policy would be determined by medical advice. I have been in regular contact with the chief medical officer, Sir David Carter. In the summer, when Parliament last debated the issue, we were dealing with predictions about predictions. The Oxford evidence has become available only within the past week. CMOs across the UK have quickly considered that evidence and given us their advice. They have assured us of the continuing decline of the BSE epidemic in cattle; the latest Oxford estimate is that the number of BSE-infected cattle under 30 months that could enter the human food chain within 12 months of clinical infection is now only 1.2 cattle for all of Britain in 2000. On the basis of that advice, we took a decision; the evidence has changed from six months ago. I suggest that members listen to medical advice on the issue in the same way as we have, as that is the basis for sensible decision making.", "EditedTextHTML": "I said clearly in my statement that food safety is not a party political issue, and I insist that it should not be so. I repeat, in case the member was not listening earlier, that the Scottish Executive has said from the outset that our policy would be determined by medical advice. I have been in regular contact with the chief medical officer, Sir David Carter.

In the summer, when Parliament last debated the issue, we were dealing with predictions about predictions. The Oxford evidence has become available only within the past week. CMOs across the UK have quickly considered that evidence and given us their advice. They have assured us of the continuing decline of the BSE epidemic in cattle; the latest Oxford estimate is that the number of BSE-infected cattle under 30 months that could enter the human food chain within 12 months of clinical infection is now only 1.2 cattle for all of Britain in 2000.

On the basis of that advice, we took a decision; the evidence has changed from six months ago. I suggest that members listen to medical advice on the issue in the same way as we have, as that is the basis for sensible decision making.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1893E47P78C712726", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Beef on the Bone", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27142, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27142, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnstone, Alex", "ID": 1893, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Johnstone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Johnstone (North-East Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 18.0, "ContributionID": 712726, "EditedText": "I am grateful to the minister for ensuring that all of us who are interested in the issue were fully informed before yesterday's announcement. Will she confirm that when the beef-on-the-bone ban is lifted, the position will be similar to an option that was available to Jack Cunningham when the ban was originally imposed? On a slightly different subject, given the evidence to the Rural Affairs Committee on the removal of spinal cord material from new carcases, should we press for a review of that issue, so that the sheep industry can be given a much-needed fillip, such as the beef industry has had today?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful to the minister for ensuring that all of us who are interested in the issue were fully informed before yesterday's announcement. Will she confirm that when the beef-on-the-bone ban is lifted, the position will be similar to an option that was available to Jack Cunningham when the ban was originally imposed? On a slightly different subject, given the evidence to the Rural Affairs Committee on the removal of spinal cord material from new carcases, should we press for a review of that issue, so that the sheep industry can be given a much-needed fillip, such as the beef industry has had today?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C712727", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Beef on the Bone", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27142, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27142, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 20.0, "ContributionID": 712727, "EditedText": "Of course I recognise the industry's concerns. As I have said consistently, we put public health first, but we recognise the industry's interests alongside that. I believe that the more confidence we can give consumers in beef and beef products, the better that is for the industry. So today there is a win-win situation. On the basis of the medical advice, I do not think that we ought to be loosening some of the other measures that are in place. I quote from the joint statement by the UK CMOs: \"It is important to retain and rigorously enforce other control measures for protecting the human food chain from cattle over 30 months infected with BSE.\" There is still a great deal of work to be done in monitoring human-variant CJD. We must continually monitor, learn and take sensible precautions. I believe that we have done so. Recently Ross Finnie and I had a useful meeting with the National Farmers Union of Scotland. We discussed some of the difficulties in striking an appropriate balance. I believe that our policies are sensible, precautionary, appropriate and in the best interests of consumers and the farming industry in Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "Of course I recognise the industry's concerns. As I have said consistently, we put public health first, but we recognise the industry's interests alongside that. I believe that the more confidence we can give consumers in beef and beef products, the better that is for the industry. So today there is a win-win situation. On the basis of the medical advice, I do not think that we ought to be loosening some of the other measures that are in place. I quote from the joint statement by the UK CMOs:

\"It is important to retain and rigorously enforce other control measures for protecting the human food chain from cattle over 30 months infected with BSE.\"

There is still a great deal of work to be done in monitoring human-variant CJD. We must continually monitor, learn and take sensible precautions. I believe that we have done so. Recently Ross Finnie and I had a useful meeting with the National Farmers Union of Scotland. We

discussed some of the difficulties in striking an appropriate balance. I believe that our policies are sensible, precautionary, appropriate and in the best interests of consumers and the farming industry in Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C712729", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Beef on the Bone", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27142, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27142, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 24.0, "ContributionID": 712729, "EditedText": "I welcome Mr Rumbles's comments and share his concern to ensure that when the ban is lifted, it is lifted properly. We are carrying out a consultation exercise because the legislation requires that any change to the ban be subject to consultation. We have asked for responses to the consultation by 7 December. That is a short time, but we think that it is reasonable under the circumstances. I also intend to write to the Presiding Officer and the relevant committee conveners regarding how we will progress the rest of the process of changing the regulations, so that we can—I hope—meet the outlined time scale and do so within the letter and the spirit of the law.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome Mr Rumbles's comments and share his concern to ensure that when the ban is lifted, it is lifted properly. We are carrying out a consultation exercise because the legislation requires that any change to the ban be subject to consultation. We have asked for responses to the consultation by 7 December. That is a short time, but we think that it is reasonable under the circumstances. I also intend to write to the Presiding Officer and the relevant committee conveners regarding how we will progress the rest of the process of changing the regulations, so that we can—I hope—meet the outlined time scale and do so within the letter and the spirit of the law.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C712737", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Beef on the Bone", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27142, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27142, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 40.0, "ContributionID": 712737, "EditedText": "I can assure the member that I am aware of the case in question, but the fact that it is still being considered in the courts means that I cannot comment on it today.", "EditedTextHTML": "I can assure the member that I am aware of the case in question, but the fact that it is still being considered in the courts means that I cannot comment on it today.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C712739", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Beef on the Bone", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27142, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27142, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon (Argyll and Bute) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 44.0, "ContributionID": 712739, "EditedText": "I, too, welcome today's decision. It is good to see the Executive following along the lines that the industry has been calling for over the past three years—all such decisions must be taken on the basis of science, not politics, unlike pre-1996. The industry is still concerned about the other measures that were put in place because the pre-1996 regulations were not enforced properly. Can the minister assure us that everything is being done in Europe to ensure that there is a move towards lifting the restrictions relating to European, rather than UK, legislation? Will the Executive do everything possible to ensure that we make progress on lifting some of the BSE regulations in the sheep and beef sectors?", "EditedTextHTML": "I, too, welcome today's decision. It is good to see the Executive following along the lines that the industry has been calling for over the past three years—all such decisions must be taken on the basis of science, not politics, unlike pre-1996. The industry is still concerned about the other measures that were put in place because the pre-1996 regulations were not enforced properly. Can the minister assure us that everything is being done in Europe to ensure that there is a move towards lifting the restrictions relating to European, rather than UK, legislation? Will the Executive do everything possible to ensure that we make progress on lifting some of the BSE regulations in the sheep and beef sectors?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712747", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27143, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 58.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 58.0, "ID": 27143, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 61.0, "ContributionID": 712747, "EditedText": "Motion moved,", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion moved,

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712749", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27143, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 58.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 58.0, "ID": 27143, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 63.0, "ContributionID": 712749, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C712751", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 68.0, "ContributionID": 712751, "EditedText": "I am grateful for the amendment's being selected. The principle that is set out in this amendment is one that the Scottish National party hopes will garner cross-party support. The amendment seeks to be constructive, and to improve the standing of the bill and the relationship between the Executive and the legislature. It seeks to enshrine in legislation what is already happening in the budget process this year, and to ensure that written understandings between the Executive and the legislature are required at every stage of proceedings. Subsection (1) provides that agreements should exist. Subsection (2) provides that those agreements should, in the first instance, be brought by the Executive, as they are at present. Finally, subsection (3) states that Parliament must agree to the written understandings. That is the same process as we are engaged in at present. The SNP's idea is that it should happen under any Executive and any Minister for Finance. That does not bind the Executive to anything to which it is not already committed. No one can say now that we would have these agreements if a different Administration were elected. The amendment is to ensure that this helpful process of engagement between the Executive and the legislature is set in stone. Finally, it requires that Parliament be engaged in that process, so that it will be seen as inclusive. I hope that the amendment can garner cross- party support. I look forward to hearing that during the debate. I move amendment 23.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful for the amendment's being selected.

The principle that is set out in this amendment is one that the Scottish National party hopes will garner cross-party support. The amendment seeks to be constructive, and to improve the standing of the bill and the relationship between the Executive and the legislature. It seeks to enshrine in legislation what is already happening in the budget process this year, and to ensure that written understandings between the Executive and the legislature are required at every stage of proceedings.

Subsection (1) provides that agreements should exist. Subsection (2) provides that those agreements should, in the first instance, be brought by the Executive, as they are at present. Finally, subsection (3) states that Parliament must agree to the written understandings.

That is the same process as we are engaged in at present. The SNP's idea is that it should happen under any Executive and any Minister for Finance. That does not bind the Executive to anything to which it is not already committed. No one can say now that we would have these agreements if a different Administration were elected. The amendment is to ensure that this helpful process of engagement between the Executive and the legislature is set in stone.

Finally, it requires that Parliament be engaged in that process, so that it will be seen as inclusive.

I hope that the amendment can garner cross- party support. I look forward to hearing that during the debate.

I move amendment 23.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C712756", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 79.0, "ContributionID": 712756, "EditedText": "I remind members that we have 12 groups of amendments to go through. I am anxious to ensure that we have time for debates on the other groups. If we have not had time for debates, the amendments will be put to the chamber without discussion. I am making an appeal for brief speeches.", "EditedTextHTML": "I remind members that we have 12 groups of amendments to go through. I am anxious to ensure that we have time for debates on the other groups. If we have not had time for debates, the amendments will be put to the chamber without discussion. I am making an appeal for brief speeches.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C712763", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Richard Simpson (Ochil) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 93.0, "ContributionID": 712763, "EditedText": "I wonder whether the minister will agree with me on two points. First, because of the inflexibility of this amendment, it may not include some items that we may want to include later. For example, subsection (1)(b) mentions changes only to expenditure allocations. If we wanted to change income allocations during the year, that would not be allowed. There is already that inflexibility. Secondly, it is always open to the Finance Committee to introduce this in legislation through the Finance Committee at a later date, if we feel that the terms that have been promised today are not being appropriately met.", "EditedTextHTML": "I wonder whether the minister will agree with me on two points.

First, because of the inflexibility of this amendment, it may not include some items that we may want to include later. For example, subsection (1)(b) mentions changes only to expenditure allocations. If we wanted to change income allocations during the year, that would not be allowed. There is already that inflexibility.

Secondly, it is always open to the Finance Committee to introduce this in legislation through the Finance Committee at a later date, if we feel that the terms that have been promised today are not being appropriately met.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C712770", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 107.0, "ContributionID": 712770, "EditedText": "I did not give way; I had finished.", "EditedTextHTML": "I did not give way; I had finished.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C712773", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 113.0, "ContributionID": 712773, "EditedText": "There will be a division.", "EditedTextHTML": "There will be a division.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712774", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 115.0, "ContributionID": 712774, "EditedText": "FOR Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)AGAINST Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)ABSTENTIONS Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)

AGAINST

Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)

ABSTENTIONS

Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C712775", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 116.0, "ContributionID": 712775, "EditedText": "The result of the division is as follows: For 44, Against 54, Abstentions 1.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result of the division is as follows: For 44, Against 54, Abstentions 1.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C712783", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Patricia Ferguson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 128.0, "ContributionID": 712783, "EditedText": "I call Mr McConnell to move amendment 2, with which we will debate amendments 20 and 21.", "EditedTextHTML": "I call Mr McConnell to move amendment 2, with which we will debate amendments 20 and 21.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C712788", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 140.0, "ContributionID": 712788, "EditedText": "No. As part of this process we were determined to ensure that while it was important that parliamentary control was possible over minister's decisions on local authority capital expenditure, that did not extend to local authorities' decisions on their own receipts. Therefore, the amendment as proposed puts existing ministerial decisions and controls under the authority of Parliament, but only those ministerial decisions, and would leave local authorities to make their own decisions in relation to their receipts.", "EditedTextHTML": "No. As part of this process we were determined to ensure that while it was important that parliamentary control was possible over minister's decisions on local authority capital expenditure, that did not extend to local authorities' decisions on their own receipts. Therefore, the amendment as proposed puts existing ministerial decisions and controls under the authority of Parliament, but only those ministerial decisions, and would leave local authorities to make their own decisions in relation to their receipts.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712789", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 142.0, "ContributionID": 712789, "EditedText": "Amendment 2 agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment 2 agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C712796", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 151.0, "ContributionID": 712796, "EditedText": "I move amendment 4, which is a very minor and technical amendment. As drafted, section 11 would restrict Audit Scotland's application of resources to fund expenditure to the amounts authorised in budget acts. Section 7 of the bill now provides for the possibility of authorising the application of resources in legislation other than budget acts for everybody else and section 11 requires similar amending. Furthermore, the amendment adds more flexibility to the provisions as it now caters for the possibility that future enactments may authorise the application of receipts by Audit Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "I move amendment 4, which is a very minor and technical amendment. As drafted, section 11 would restrict Audit Scotland's application of resources to fund expenditure to the amounts authorised in budget acts. Section 7 of the bill now provides for the possibility of authorising the application of resources in legislation other than budget acts for everybody else and section 11 requires similar amending. Furthermore, the amendment adds more flexibility to the provisions as it now caters for the possibility that future enactments may authorise the application of receipts by Audit Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712799", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 156.0, "ContributionID": 712799, "EditedText": "Section 13—Auditor General for Scotland", "EditedTextHTML": "Section 13—Auditor General for Scotland

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C712804", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 163.0, "ContributionID": 712804, "EditedText": "I move amendment 6, which is very straightforward. My notes call it \"trivial\", but I prefer straightforward. The bill establishes the position of accountable officer for various bodies and office holders. There is an erroneous reference to \"the accountable officer of Audit Scotland\"and for the sake of consistency, the amendment replaces \"of\" with \"for\".", "EditedTextHTML": "I move amendment 6, which is very straightforward. My notes call it \"trivial\", but I prefer straightforward. The bill establishes the position of accountable officer for various bodies and office holders. There is an erroneous reference to

\"the accountable officer of Audit Scotland\"

and for the sake of consistency, the amendment replaces \"of\" with \"for\".

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712805", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 165.0, "ContributionID": 712805, "EditedText": "Amendment 6 agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment 6 agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C712808", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 169.0, "ContributionID": 712808, "EditedText": "We will come on to those, Mr Swinney. We are following the order in the marshalled list. Section 19—Audit of accounts", "EditedTextHTML": "We will come on to those, Mr Swinney. We are following the order in the marshalled list.

Section 19—Audit of accounts

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712812", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 177.0, "ContributionID": 712812, "EditedText": "Amendment 7 agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment 7 agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712814", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 179.0, "ContributionID": 712814, "EditedText": "Section 21—Economy, efficiency andeffectiveness examinations", "EditedTextHTML": "Section 21—Economy, efficiency andeffectiveness examinations

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C712815", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 180.0, "ContributionID": 712815, "EditedText": "I move amendment 9. I will speak to amendments 10 to 17 as well. Those amendments respond directly to concerns that were expressed in this chamber, as well as in committees, about the scope of the bill and the need to give further powers to the Auditor General for Scotland. They all concern arrangements for value-for-money examinations. The Executive expects that the majority of value-for-money studies will be conducted under arrangements that are provided for in the bill. Amendment 9, however, provides the additional option of value-for-money examination by agreement. It enables the Auditor General to conduct a value-for-money examination into the use of resources by a body that is not covered by the remaining provisions of section 21, with the agreement of the body concerned. That complements the existing provisions, and provides for the Auditor General to arrange for studies in circumstances that might otherwise be precluded. Amendments 10 to 17 have been prepared as a result of points that were made by members of the Audit Committee during stage 2 scrutiny of the bill. The intention is to widen significantly the scope of bodies that the Auditor General might examine for value-for-money purposes. The original draft of the bill would have prohibited Scottish ministers from specifying as a suitable subject for value-for-money examination any body that received no more than half of its income from public sources. Amendment 10 reduces that threshold so that Scottish ministers are able to propose any body that receives more than a quarter of its funds from public sources as suitable for value-for-money examination. Amendment 11 recognises that, on occasion, a body may receive a considerable amount of public funds, but, because of the size of its total annual income, may not be within the scope of the provision. The amendment deals with that possibility by enabling Scottish ministers to propose that any body that receives more than £500,000 is suitable for value-for-money examination, even if the sum involved is less than a quarter of that body's total annual income. The remaining amendments in this group are, by and large, consequential on those two earlier provisions, although there are also some changes that have been prepared merely to refine the drafting of the bill. I commend these amendments.", "EditedTextHTML": "I move amendment 9. I will speak to amendments 10 to 17 as well. Those amendments respond directly to concerns that were expressed in this chamber, as well as in committees, about the scope of the bill and the need to give further powers to the Auditor General for Scotland. They all concern arrangements for value-for-money examinations. The Executive expects that the majority of value-for-money studies will be conducted under arrangements that are provided for in the bill.

Amendment 9, however, provides the additional option of value-for-money examination by agreement. It enables the Auditor General to conduct a value-for-money examination into the use of resources by a body that is not covered by the remaining provisions of section 21, with the agreement of the body concerned. That complements the existing provisions, and provides for the Auditor General to arrange for studies in circumstances that might otherwise be precluded.

Amendments 10 to 17 have been prepared as a result of points that were made by members of the Audit Committee during stage 2 scrutiny of the bill. The intention is to widen significantly the scope of bodies that the Auditor General might examine for value-for-money purposes. The original draft of the bill would have prohibited Scottish ministers from specifying as a suitable subject for value-for-money examination any body that received no more than half of its income from public sources. Amendment 10 reduces that threshold so that Scottish ministers are able to propose any body that receives more than a quarter of its funds from public sources as suitable for value-for-money examination.

Amendment 11 recognises that, on occasion, a body may receive a considerable amount of public funds, but, because of the size of its total annual income, may not be within the scope of the provision. The amendment deals with that possibility by enabling Scottish ministers to

propose that any body that receives more than £500,000 is suitable for value-for-money examination, even if the sum involved is less than a quarter of that body's total annual income.

The remaining amendments in this group are, by and large, consequential on those two earlier provisions, although there are also some changes that have been prepared merely to refine the drafting of the bill.

I commend these amendments.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C712820", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Simpson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 191.0, "ContributionID": 712820, "EditedText": "I welcome the proposed amendments, which are skilfully drafted. Despite the concerns of Andrew Welsh and Nick Johnston, the threshold that has been adjudged is reasonable because, if the figures are too small, we run the risk of totally overwhelming our administration. Both the Audit Committee and the Finance Committee will have to keep that under review.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the proposed amendments, which are skilfully drafted. Despite the concerns of Andrew Welsh and Nick Johnston, the threshold that has been adjudged is reasonable because, if the figures are too small, we run the risk of totally overwhelming our administration. Both the Audit Committee and the Finance Committee will have to keep that under review.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712827", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 204.0, "ContributionID": 712827, "EditedText": "Amendments 10 to 16 moved—Mr McConnell—and agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendments 10 to 16 moved—[Mr McConnell]—and agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C712830", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 209.0, "ContributionID": 712830, "EditedText": "The bill refers specifically to the powers of the Auditor General and to the role of Audit Scotland. It would therefore not be appropriate for it to determine how the Water Industry Commissioner would carry out his or her duties. The bill is about what the Auditor General will do; as amendment 27 says, the Auditor General would have to consult the Water Industry Commissioner for Scotland before he chose to carry out a value-for-money study. The commissioner and the Auditor General could, in theory, still carry out two studies at the same time, but one would hope that the Auditor General would not institute a value-for-money study in an area that was already being dealt with by the commissioner. That is what the amendment seeks to achieve.", "EditedTextHTML": "The bill refers specifically to the powers of the Auditor General and to the role of Audit Scotland. It would therefore not be appropriate for it to determine how the Water Industry Commissioner would carry out his or her duties. The bill is about what the Auditor General will do; as amendment 27 says, the Auditor General would have to consult the Water Industry Commissioner for Scotland before he chose to carry out a value-for-money study.

The commissioner and the Auditor General could, in theory, still carry out two studies at the same time, but one would hope that the Auditor General would not institute a value-for-money study in an area that was already being dealt with by the commissioner. That is what the amendment seeks to achieve.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712833", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 215.0, "ContributionID": 712833, "EditedText": "Amendment 27 agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment 27 agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712834", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 216.0, "ContributionID": 712834, "EditedText": "Amendments 17 to 21 moved—Mr McConnell—and agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendments 17 to 21 moved—[Mr McConnell]—and agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712837", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 221.0, "ContributionID": 712837, "EditedText": "Amendment 28 agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment 28 agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712838", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 222.0, "ContributionID": 712838, "EditedText": "Amendments 29 and 22 moved—Mr McConnell—and agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendments 29 and 22 moved—[Mr McConnell]—and agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C712841", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27145, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 223.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 223.0, "ID": 27145, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 230.0, "ContributionID": 712841, "EditedText": "I welcome the bill in its final form and I congratulate FIAG for the role that it played at the start of the process, informing so much of the legislation before us. The good governance that we can demonstrate as a Parliament is critical to the whole process. I think that it was Mr Welsh who said at stage 2 that one of the beauties of a small country was that one could govern better; that is the principle of devolution that we would like carried into all the areas of policy competence that normal countries have. If we can demonstrate that we can spend our resources more wisely, more effectively, more efficiently and with greater transparency and if we can promote better governance, surely that makes a powerful case for having the same responsibilities as a normal country in revenue raising. I look forward to the day when we have a balanced budget—when, like any normal country, we are responsible for raising as well as spending the money. When Mr McConnell relaxes after the rigours of a tough day, I suggest that he reflects on his colleague across the Irish sea, Charles McCreevy TD, who is today administering perhaps the most exciting budget bill in Europe this year—the Irish Government is about to allow the people of Ireland to share in the country's economic success. It would be nice if we had the same opportunity in Scotland. I commend the Minister for Finance for lodging 20 of the 28 amendments to correct previous inadequacies in his drafting. It would have been nice if he could have engaged with some of the positive, co-operative politics that the Finance Committee and the Audit Committee, under the able convenerships of Mike Watson and Andrew Welsh, seek to promote. Perhaps as we go on we can return to those good principles.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the bill in its final form and I congratulate FIAG for the role that it played at the start of the process, informing so much of the legislation before us.

The good governance that we can demonstrate as a Parliament is critical to the whole process. I think that it was Mr Welsh who said at stage 2 that one of the beauties of a small country was that one could govern better; that is the principle of devolution that we would like carried into all the areas of policy competence that normal countries have. If we can demonstrate that we can spend our resources more wisely, more effectively, more efficiently and with greater transparency and if we can promote better governance, surely that makes a powerful case for having the same responsibilities as a normal country in revenue raising. I look forward to the day when we have a balanced budget—when, like any normal country, we are responsible for raising as well as spending the money.

When Mr McConnell relaxes after the rigours of a tough day, I suggest that he reflects on his colleague across the Irish sea, Charles McCreevy TD, who is today administering perhaps the most exciting budget bill in Europe this year—the Irish Government is about to allow the people of Ireland to share in the country's economic success. It would be nice if we had the same opportunity in Scotland.

I commend the Minister for Finance for lodging 20 of the 28 amendments to correct previous inadequacies in his drafting. It would have been nice if he could have engaged with some of the positive, co-operative politics that the Finance Committee and the Audit Committee, under the able convenerships of Mike Watson and Andrew Welsh, seek to promote. Perhaps as we go on we can return to those good principles.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2159E115P214C712844", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27145, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 223.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 223.0, "ID": 27145, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Martin, Paul", "ID": 2159, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Springburn" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Paul Martin", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Paul Martin (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 238.0, "ContributionID": 712844, "EditedText": "I welcome the fact that the bill will be passed today. I am sure that I speak for all members of the Audit Committee when I say that I welcome the minister's contribution to the process. The Audit Committee has had a constructive debate on the bill; that is to be welcomed. I welcome the fact that the minister has accommodated a number of points that were raised during the committee's proceedings, particularly the point on value-for-money studies. The 25 per cent threshold will certainly be a start to the process. The Parliament has been the subject of much criticism recently. The bill establishes financial accountability to ensure that we have a fully transparent process that will be a credit to the new Parliament. I ask that the public and the press give us some credit for what has been done so far. I see that three members of the press are sticking out the debate this evening. Interruption. I stand corrected—four members of the press are in the gallery. Quite rightly, the Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill has leaned towards the FIAG recommendations. Those recommendations have been largely welcomed and have allowed us to ensure maximum transparency and financial accountability. Given that we have more than £16 billion at our disposal, we must target funding towards priorities and avoid waste. We are entering a refreshing era, where the spending of public funds is under fierce scrutiny. I believe that the model that we are debating meets those aims. I am pleased, in particular, with the bill's emphasis on plain English. As an ex-member of Glasgow City Council, I know that officials used to compete with one another to create new jargon. The only way in which we can excite interest in the budgeting debate is if we use plain English to make our accounts more accessible—that will ensure proper accountability. The proposal to transfer the Accounts Commission's responsibilities for the health service audit to the Auditor General is crucial. I have been frustrated by not being able to raise in the Parliament issues concerning local health boards. The proposal recognises the prominent role that the Parliament must play in the health service audit. The Executive's plans to consolidate public accounts give us real powers to obtain information from bodies and to allow information to be audited. That is another example of effective financial management. As Keith Raffan said, we will have a financial framework that will receive worldwide recognition. That framework will ensure the highest possible standards of financial accountability.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the fact that the bill will be passed today. I am sure that I speak for all members of the Audit Committee when I say that I welcome the minister's contribution to the process. The Audit Committee has had a constructive debate on the bill; that is to be welcomed.

I welcome the fact that the minister has accommodated a number of points that were raised during the committee's proceedings, particularly the point on value-for-money studies. The 25 per cent threshold will certainly be a start to the process.

The Parliament has been the subject of much criticism recently. The bill establishes financial accountability to ensure that we have a fully transparent process that will be a credit to the new Parliament. I ask that the public and the press give us some credit for what has been done so far. I see that three members of the press are sticking out the debate this evening. [Interruption.] I stand corrected—four members of the press are in the gallery.

Quite rightly, the Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill has leaned towards the FIAG recommendations. Those recommendations have been largely welcomed and have allowed us to ensure maximum transparency and financial accountability.

Given that we have more than £16 billion at our disposal, we must target funding towards priorities and avoid waste. We are entering a refreshing era, where the spending of public funds is under fierce scrutiny. I believe that the model that we are debating meets those aims.

I am pleased, in particular, with the bill's emphasis on plain English. As an ex-member of Glasgow City Council, I know that officials used to compete with one another to create new jargon. The only way in which we can excite interest in the budgeting debate is if we use plain English to make our accounts more accessible—that will ensure proper accountability.

The proposal to transfer the Accounts Commission's responsibilities for the health service audit to the Auditor General is crucial. I have been frustrated by not being able to raise in the Parliament issues concerning local health boards. The proposal recognises the prominent role that the Parliament must play in the health service audit. The Executive's plans to consolidate public accounts give us real powers to obtain information from bodies and to allow information to be audited. That is another example of effective financial management.

As Keith Raffan said, we will have a financial framework that will receive worldwide recognition. That framework will ensure the highest possible standards of financial accountability.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1906E278P355C712847", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27145, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 223.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 223.0, "ID": 27145, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Welsh, Andrew", "ID": 1906, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Angus" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Welsh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Andrew Welsh (Angus) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 246.0, "ContributionID": 712847, "EditedText": "congratulate the minister on successfully piloting through this measure. What is happening today is of massive importance for Scotland. This bill sets out one of the foundation stones for the work of the Parliament. The objectives of clarity, openness, accountability and the need to obtain maximum effectiveness and efficiency in the use of public money are at the heart of the FIAG recommendations, and all are to be found in this bill. If the bill meets those objectives, it will be a massive achievement for the people of Scotland. The Parliament has no option but to budget prudently because of the fixed, limited nature of devolution finances. Westminster regularly overshoots the chancellor's predictions by tens of billions of pounds, but no such luxury is available to this devolved Parliament. We have to harness, gather and maximise the effect of every available pound on behalf of the Scottish people. Therefore, the greater the openness, scrutiny and financial efficiency, the greater will be the benefits for the people of Scotland in terms of services delivered and the use of resources. The foundation stones exist in this bill; now Parliament and the Executive must deliver. Scotland is currently governed by quangos in many areas. I hope that the powers that are available to the Auditor General will bring to public light and scrutiny many dark areas of Scotland, and will do so on behalf of the people of Scotland. Wherever public money is involved, the public must be assured that there is transparency and value for money. However, the proper scrutiny of public accounts goes further than simple close investigation and reporting back. The scrutiny powers in the bill have to be used positively and with sensitivity, rather than becoming the simple application of fixed-rote formulae. I look forward to a public scrutiny system in Scotland that always seeks out, and encourages the dissemination of, best practice, without stifling innovation and initiative. Raising overall standards and the quality of the services that are provided to the public must always be an essential part of the new Scottish financial system. This bill can only set out the framework for action. It is now up to everyone involved to deliver the reality. The Minister for Finance has now delineated the system, and the lines of responsibility between Parliament and the Executive, and between Parliament and Audit Scotland, have been made clear. Now we must all check against delivery. I congratulate FIAG and thank the minister for delivering this bill. I wish everyone concerned every success in delivering for Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "congratulate the minister on successfully piloting through this measure. What is happening today is of massive importance for Scotland. This bill sets out one of the foundation stones for the work of the Parliament. The objectives of clarity, openness, accountability and the need to obtain maximum effectiveness and efficiency in the use of public money are at the heart of the FIAG recommendations, and all are to be found in this bill. If the bill meets those objectives, it will be a massive achievement for the people of Scotland.

The Parliament has no option but to budget prudently because of the fixed, limited nature of devolution finances. Westminster regularly overshoots the chancellor's predictions by tens of billions of pounds, but no such luxury is available to this devolved Parliament. We have to harness, gather and maximise the effect of every available pound on behalf of the Scottish people. Therefore, the greater the openness, scrutiny and financial efficiency, the greater will be the benefits for the people of Scotland in terms of services delivered and the use of resources.

The foundation stones exist in this bill; now Parliament and the Executive must deliver. Scotland is currently governed by quangos in many areas. I hope that the powers that are available to the Auditor General will bring to public light and scrutiny many dark areas of Scotland, and will do so on behalf of the people of Scotland. Wherever public money is involved, the public must be assured that there is transparency and value for money. However, the proper scrutiny of public accounts goes further than simple close investigation and reporting back. The scrutiny powers in the bill have to be used positively and with sensitivity, rather than becoming the simple application of fixed-rote formulae.

I look forward to a public scrutiny system in Scotland that always seeks out, and encourages the dissemination of, best practice, without stifling innovation and initiative. Raising overall standards and the quality of the services that are provided to the public must always be an essential part of the new Scottish financial system. This bill can only set out the framework for action. It is now up to everyone involved to deliver the reality.

The Minister for Finance has now delineated the system, and the lines of responsibility between Parliament and the Executive, and between Parliament and Audit Scotland, have been made clear. Now we must all check against delivery. I congratulate FIAG and thank the minister for delivering this bill. I wish everyone concerned every success in delivering for Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2142E142P230C712848", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27145, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 223.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 223.0, "ID": 27145, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Watson, Mike", "ID": 2142, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Cathcart" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Watson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mike Watson (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 249.0, "ContributionID": 712848, "EditedText": "At the risk of giving my colleague, the Minister for Finance, a red face, I join Andrew Welsh and others in congratulating him on the way in which the bill has been piloted to a successful conclusion—the formality of the vote notwithstanding. It is important to recognise that this is an example of decentralised government in practice. This Parliament, and not just those who have been involved in the various stages of the bill, should take some credit for that. Decisions on expenditure in Scotland are clearly set out, as are the means of holding to account those who have responsibility for them. The bill has provided an example of effective working by two committees in the various processes of a bill—the Audit Committee under the convenership of Andrew Welsh was the lead committee, but the Finance Committee had a considerable role as well. It has shown how the system can work for bills in other subject areas. The system is not perfect, but we have shown very effectively how it operates. As everyone has acknowledged, the bill is crucial. It is both forward looking in authorising Scottish public resources and finances and retrospective in scrutinising spending and holding to account the Executive and public bodies. We cannot overstate the importance of that in the context of the governance of Scotland and the crucial role that this Parliament has in it. The important principle of value for money has also been established and set out as part of a statutory framework for financial management based on maximum transparency, as my colleague Paul Martin eloquently outlined. This process has been an historic event: this is the first bill to go through the full process of this Parliament. All of us who have played a part in it have formed a template for bills that will follow. Not many people knew what the financial issues advisory group was before the process started. FIAG, as we refer to it, produced a blueprint, which will endure and will be a cornerstone of the way in which this Parliament operates and the government of Scotland is carried forward. All those who have contributed to that group, over a considerable period of time, should be congratulated. On a more personal note, I thank those involved in steering through the first bill to go through all the various processes. It was not easy and often the way in which the process was set out was not as obvious as it might have been and had to be tested. I thank Sarah Davidson, who is clerk to the Finance Committee and the Audit Committee, which is not an easy task. I also thank her staff and colleagues on both committees for the successful conclusion of what, I am sure in retrospect, will prove to have been an historic bill in this Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "At the risk of giving my colleague, the Minister for Finance, a red face, I join Andrew Welsh and others in congratulating him on the way in which the bill has been piloted to a successful conclusion—the formality of the vote notwithstanding. It is important to recognise that this is an example of decentralised government in practice. This Parliament, and not just those who have been involved in the various stages of the bill, should take some credit for that. Decisions on expenditure in Scotland are clearly set out, as are the means of holding to account those who have responsibility for them.

The bill has provided an example of effective working by two committees in the various processes of a bill—the Audit Committee under the convenership of Andrew Welsh was the lead committee, but the Finance Committee had a considerable role as well. It has shown how the system can work for bills in other subject areas. The system is not perfect, but we have shown very effectively how it operates.

As everyone has acknowledged, the bill is crucial. It is both forward looking in authorising Scottish public resources and finances and retrospective in scrutinising spending and holding to account the Executive and public bodies. We cannot overstate the importance of that in the context of the governance of Scotland and the crucial role that this Parliament has in it.

The important principle of value for money has also been established and set out as part of a statutory framework for financial management based on maximum transparency, as my colleague Paul Martin eloquently outlined. This process has been an historic event: this is the first bill to go through the full process of this Parliament. All of us who have played a part in it have formed a template for bills that will follow.

Not many people knew what the financial issues advisory group was before the process started. FIAG, as we refer to it, produced a blueprint, which will endure and will be a cornerstone of the way in which this Parliament operates and the government of Scotland is carried forward. All those who have contributed to that group, over a considerable period of time, should be congratulated.

On a more personal note, I thank those involved in steering through the first bill to go through all the various processes. It was not easy and often the way in which the process was set out was not as obvious as it might have been and had to be tested. I thank Sarah Davidson, who is clerk to the Finance Committee and the Audit Committee, which is not an easy task. I also thank her staff and colleagues on both committees for the successful conclusion of what, I am sure in retrospect, will prove to have been an historic bill in this Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C712854", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27145, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 223.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 223.0, "ID": 27145, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Richard Simpson (Ochil) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 265.0, "ContributionID": 712854, "EditedText": "Does the minister agree that the process that we are setting up, whereby the Finance Committee will be able to scrutinise the general budget intentions and consult the subject committees, which will be expected to consult the public, means that we will have one of the most open systems in the western world?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the minister agree that the process that we are setting up, whereby the Finance Committee will be able to scrutinise the general budget intentions and consult the subject committees, which will be expected to consult the public, means that we will have one of the most open systems in the western world?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712862", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Co-operative and Mutual Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27147, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 278.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 278.0, "ID": 27147, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 281.0, "ContributionID": 712862, "EditedText": "Motion debated,", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion debated,

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C712865", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Co-operative and Mutual Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27147, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 278.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 278.0, "ID": 27147, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 286.0, "ContributionID": 712865, "EditedText": "If co-operators and others are to contribute to the debate, speeches should be kept to well under three minutes.", "EditedTextHTML": "If co-operators and others are to contribute to the debate, speeches should be kept to well under three minutes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C712873", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Co-operative and Mutual Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27147, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 278.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 278.0, "ID": 27147, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 309.0, "ContributionID": 712873, "EditedText": "That concludes the debate on the co-operative and mutual sector.", "EditedTextHTML": "That concludes the debate on the co-operative and mutual sector.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712874", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Co-operative and Mutual Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27147, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 278.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 278.0, "ID": 27147, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 311.0, "ContributionID": 712874, "EditedText": "Meeting closed at 17:10.", "EditedTextHTML": "Meeting closed at 17:10.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C712816", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 182.0, "ContributionID": 712816, "EditedText": "This group of amendments is very welcome. In particular, I would like to highlight the minister's decision to lower the thresholds for value-for-money studies, in terms of the proportion of an organisation's income that may have come from the public purse and of the absolute sum that may be the subject of inquiry. That is important, because we live in an age in which we must ensure that issues of value for money are implicit in the operations of Government. The minister will not be surprised to hear me say that, in the past few months and years, many of us have been impressed by the work of the Accounts Commission in driving forward value for money and in examining comparative performance in the delivery of public services, with the objective of improving the management practices involved in the delivery of those services. I hope that that approach will be encouraged under the new arrangements that this bill will provide. The minister will be aware that, prior to the election, the SNP made considerable input to the debate on value-for-money exercises and what the public purse could achieve if there was a systematic willingness on the part of Government to seek out best value in using those resources. I hope that some of that thinking now underpins the actions of the minister as he exercises his duties.", "EditedTextHTML": "This group of amendments is very welcome. In particular, I would like to highlight the minister's decision to lower the thresholds for value-for-money studies, in terms of the proportion of an organisation's income that may have come from the public purse and of the absolute sum that may be the subject of inquiry. That is important, because we live in an age in which we must ensure that issues of value for money are implicit in the operations of Government.

The minister will not be surprised to hear me say that, in the past few months and years, many of us have been impressed by the work of the Accounts Commission in driving forward value for money and in examining comparative performance in the delivery of public services, with the objective of improving the management practices involved in the delivery of those services. I hope that that approach will be encouraged under the new arrangements that this bill will provide.

The minister will be aware that, prior to the election, the SNP made considerable input to the debate on value-for-money exercises and what the public purse could achieve if there was a systematic willingness on the part of Government to seek out best value in using those resources. I hope that some of that thinking now underpins the actions of the minister as he exercises his duties.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:28:33.8639665+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C712731", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Beef on the Bone", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27142, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27142, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 28.0, "ContributionID": 712731, "EditedText": "I thank Dr Simpson for his positive comments and for his many contributions in debates on the issue over previous months. As I said in reply to Mr Johnstone, of course we recognise the need to support the Scottish—and, more widely, the British—beef industry. As Minister for Health and Community Care, my main area of involvement has been with the health issues. However, I assure the member, on behalf of colleagues, from the First Minister down—or across—to the Minister for Rural Affairs, and all those in between, that a collective effort has been made across the Scottish Executive and, crucially, in co-operation with ministers in other parts of the UK, to ensure that steps are taken in the best interests of our agriculture industry. A recent aid package of some £40 million— announced back in September—was given to the livestock sector. In addition, I assure members that work continues to ensure that we do all in our power to support the Scottish agriculture sector.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank Dr Simpson for his positive comments and for his many contributions in debates on the issue over previous months.

As I said in reply to Mr Johnstone, of course we recognise the need to support the Scottish—and, more widely, the British—beef industry. As Minister for Health and Community Care, my main area of involvement has been with the health issues. However, I assure the member, on behalf of colleagues, from the First Minister down—or across—to the Minister for Rural Affairs, and all those in between, that a collective effort has been made across the Scottish Executive and, crucially, in co-operation with ministers in other parts of the UK, to ensure that steps are taken in the best interests of our agriculture industry.

A recent aid package of some £40 million— announced back in September—was given to the livestock sector. In addition, I assure members that work continues to ensure that we do all in our power to support the Scottish agriculture sector.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C712733", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Beef on the Bone", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27142, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27142, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 32.0, "ContributionID": 712733, "EditedText": "Given the way that the issue has been kicked around like a political football in recent months, I wish that I could believe Mr Ewing and his party when they say that public health is paramount. I hope that in future months, in the challenges and issues that we will have to face in relation to food safety, the SNP will join me in putting public health first. I despair when I hear members talking about clear and unequivocal causal connections in relation to such a matter. The chief medical officer has issued written advice on the matter on many occasions. He has discussed the issue in great detail with the Rural Affairs Committee. In doing so, he has explained the degree of uncertainty that exists, which is why we have had to take a precautionary approach. It is estimated that the number of years for the incubation period of human-variant CJD goes into double figures. Therefore, we do not have the ability to point to the specific causal connection that Mr Ewing is requesting. That is why we have to have sensible, reasoned, informed debate around those issues and why we must listen to our scientific and medical advisers. That is precisely what we have done.", "EditedTextHTML": "Given the way that the issue has been kicked around like a political football in recent months, I wish that I could believe Mr Ewing and his party when they say that public health is paramount. I hope that in future months, in the challenges and issues that we will have to face in relation to food safety, the SNP will join me in putting public health first.

I despair when I hear members talking about clear and unequivocal causal connections in relation to such a matter. The chief medical officer has issued written advice on the matter on many occasions. He has discussed the issue in great detail with the Rural Affairs Committee. In doing so, he has explained the degree of uncertainty that exists, which is why we have had to take a precautionary approach. It is estimated that the number of years for the incubation period of human-variant CJD goes into double figures. Therefore, we do not have the ability to point to the specific causal connection that Mr Ewing is requesting. That is why we have to have sensible, reasoned, informed debate around those issues and why we must listen to our scientific and medical advisers. That is precisely what we have done.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C712735", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Beef on the Bone", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27142, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27142, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 36.0, "ContributionID": 712735, "EditedText": "I have listened to Ross Finniespeak at some length, in several forums, about the issues facing the sheep industry. I know that he is committed to taking action on that. I will be happy to relay to Mr Finnie the comments that have been made.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have listened to Ross Finnie

speak at some length, in several forums, about the issues facing the sheep industry. I know that he is committed to taking action on that. I will be happy to relay to Mr Finnie the comments that have been made.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C712740", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Beef on the Bone", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27142, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27142, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 46.0, "ContributionID": 712740, "EditedText": "I assure the member that we will listen carefully to industry concerns. We will always try to achieve the appropriate balance between the public health interest—which is paramount—and the needs of the industry. I mentioned earlier the meeting that Ross Finnie and I had with the NFU Scotland. At that meeting, we discussed how to achieve such a balance. I listened carefully to what was said, and I will consider how to take forward the points raised at the meeting.", "EditedTextHTML": "I assure the member that we will listen carefully to industry concerns. We will always try to achieve the appropriate balance between the public health interest—which is paramount—and the needs of the industry. I mentioned earlier the meeting that Ross Finnie and I had with the NFU Scotland. At that meeting, we discussed how to achieve such a balance. I listened carefully to what was said, and I will consider how to take forward the points raised at the meeting.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C712741", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Beef on the Bone", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27142, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27142, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 48.0, "ContributionID": 712741, "EditedText": "Now that Scottish and British beef will be labelled with its country of origin when on sale in the EU market, why cannot meat produced in Europe be labelled with its country of origin in the UK market? When can we be assured that beef from other EU countries has met the rigorous standards that our own beef must meet?", "EditedTextHTML": "Now that Scottish and British beef will be labelled with its country of origin when on sale in the EU market, why cannot meat produced in Europe be labelled with its country of origin in the UK market? When can we be assured that beef from other EU countries has met the rigorous standards that our own beef must meet?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C712742", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Beef on the Bone", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27142, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27142, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 50.0, "ContributionID": 712742, "EditedText": "Let me assure members that my primary concern is the interests of consumers in Scotland. The same high standards that we apply to beef and beef products from within the UK, we apply to imported beef products. We will continue to do that in the best interests of Scottish consumers.", "EditedTextHTML": "Let me assure members that my primary concern is the interests of consumers in Scotland. The same high standards that we apply to beef and beef products from within the UK, we apply to imported beef products. We will continue to do that in the best interests of Scottish consumers.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C712744", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Beef on the Bone", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27142, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27142, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 54.0, "ContributionID": 712744, "EditedText": "I am struck by the member's wit and overcome with mirth. It is important that consumers are able to make informed choices. There is still uncertainty about the infectivity of bone marrow and research on that is continuing. Therefore, we believe that that is a suitably precautionary and prudent measure to maintain the ban for processed beef products, such as baby foods, as the consumer cannot know or ask whether beef on the bone has been used in their production. That is why we plan to leave in place the controls in that area.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am struck by the member's wit and overcome with mirth.

It is important that consumers are able to make informed choices. There is still uncertainty about the infectivity of bone marrow and research on that is continuing. Therefore, we believe that that is a suitably precautionary and prudent measure to maintain the ban for processed beef products, such as baby foods, as the consumer cannot know or ask whether beef on the bone has been used in their production. That is why we plan to leave in place the controls in that area.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C712750", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 66.0, "ContributionID": 712750, "EditedText": "We now move to the first real stage 3 debate in this chamber. It is on the Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill. I would like to take members through what will happen. In the event of the debate concluding before 5 o'clock, it is expected that a member of the Parliamentary Bureau will seek leave to move a motion without notice to bring decision time forward. As we have just agreed, proceedings on stage 3 are programmed to last up to one hour 30 minutes. The electronic voting system can be used for divisions at any time during that period. Copies of the marshalled list of amendments that are to be considered have been available since this morning, and are available from the clerks at the back of the chamber. I have decided that all amendments for which notice has been given should be selected for debate. Copies of the groupings list have been placed on members' desks, and amendments have been grouped to allow a single debate to take place on related amendments to avoid undue repetition. I remind members that all amendments must be called in turn from the marshalled list. Amendments will be disposed of in the order in which the provisions to which they relate arise in the bill. There will be one debate on each of the 12 groups of amendments in the groupings list. At the end of the debate on each grouping I will put the question on the first amendment of the grouping, and Parliament will decide whether to agree to the amendment. I will then call the next amendment in the marshalled list. If that has already been debated, the member who has proposed it will move it, but should not make a speech. There will be no further debate, and I will then put the question. After all the amendments have been disposed of, we will debate the motion in the name of Jack McConnell that is on the business bulletin, as to whether the bill be passed. We now begin the debate on stage 3 of the bill. I call Andrew Wilson to move amendment 23. After section 1—Financial procedures: written agreements", "EditedTextHTML": "We now move to the first real stage 3 debate in this chamber. It is on the Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill.

I would like to take members through what will happen. In the event of the debate concluding before 5 o'clock, it is expected that a member of the Parliamentary Bureau will seek leave to move a motion without notice to bring decision time forward.

As we have just agreed, proceedings on stage 3 are programmed to last up to one hour 30 minutes. The electronic voting system can be used for divisions at any time during that period. Copies of the marshalled list of amendments that are to be considered have been available since this morning, and are available from the clerks at the back of the chamber.

I have decided that all amendments for which notice has been given should be selected for debate. Copies of the groupings list have been placed on members' desks, and amendments have been grouped to allow a single debate to take place on related amendments to avoid undue repetition. I remind members that all amendments must be called in turn from the marshalled list. Amendments will be disposed of in the order in which the provisions to which they relate arise in the bill.

There will be one debate on each of the 12 groups of amendments in the groupings list. At the end of the debate on each grouping I will put the question on the first amendment of the grouping, and Parliament will decide whether to agree to the amendment. I will then call the next amendment in the marshalled list. If that has already been debated, the member who has proposed it will move it, but should not make a speech. There will be no further debate, and I will then put the question.

After all the amendments have been disposed of, we will debate the motion in the name of Jack McConnell that is on the business bulletin, as to whether the bill be passed.

We now begin the debate on stage 3 of the bill. I call Andrew Wilson to move amendment 23.

After section 1—Financial procedures: written agreements

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C712753", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 72.0, "ContributionID": 712753, "EditedText": "Will Mr McConnell give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr McConnell give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C712754", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 74.0, "ContributionID": 712754, "EditedText": "Mr Wilson will be able to respond later. Secondly, the amendment seeks to ensure that the terms of any agreements are agreed by resolution of Parliament. That is the key point. It is a matter for the Parliament that does not require legislation. I expect the committees to report to the Parliament on the terms of the proposed agreements, and the Parliament to resolve accordingly. I had always imagined that when the agreements were finalised they would be approved by the Parliament and by the Executive. That is what I understand by agreement. It is not necessary for that requirement to be laid in legislation. I hope that Mr Wilson will take this important point on board. If the amendment were carried, it would give the power to impose an understanding in the absence of a parliamentary agreement. That was never my intention and I am surprised that that is raised in the amendment—even by accident. The amendment says that if the agreement is not covered by a resolution of the Parliament, the minister's proposed agreement shall be put in place. I do not think that the agreements should be put in place unless they have been agreed by this Parliament and by the Executive. That may not be a deliberate intention of the amendment, but it is clear from subsection (1)(c) that subsection (2) would be in place if an agreement had not been reached by the Parliament. In all our preparations for and debates on the bill, I have stressed time and again my desire that we agree to our new, democratic and principled procedures without party divisions or conflict between Parliament and the Executive. I hope, on the basis of the undertakings that I have given again today, that Mr Wilson will withdraw his amendment at the end of the debate.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Wilson will be able to respond later.

Secondly, the amendment seeks to ensure that the terms of any agreements are agreed by resolution of Parliament. That is the key point. It is a matter for the Parliament that does not require legislation. I expect the committees to report to the Parliament on the terms of the proposed agreements, and the Parliament to resolve accordingly. I had always imagined that when the agreements were finalised they would be approved by the Parliament and by the Executive. That is what I understand by agreement. It is not necessary for that requirement to be laid in legislation.

I hope that Mr Wilson will take this important point on board. If the amendment were carried, it would give the power to impose an understanding in the absence of a parliamentary agreement. That was never my intention and I am surprised that that is raised in the amendment—even by accident. The amendment says that if the agreement is not covered by a resolution of the Parliament, the minister's proposed agreement shall be put in place. I do not think that the agreements should be put in place unless they have been agreed by this Parliament and by the Executive. That may not be a deliberate intention of the amendment, but it is clear from subsection (1)(c) that subsection (2) would be in place if an agreement had not been reached by the Parliament.

In all our preparations for and debates on the bill, I have stressed time and again my desire that

we agree to our new, democratic and principled procedures without party divisions or conflict between Parliament and the Executive.

I hope, on the basis of the undertakings that I have given again today, that Mr Wilson will withdraw his amendment at the end of the debate.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C712758", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr David Davidson (North-East Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 83.0, "ContributionID": 712758, "EditedText": "Much of what the previous speakers have said relates to the honesty with which this Parliament is approaching what could be a very good bill for Scotland. We support, in principle, what Andrew Wilson is trying to achieve with his amendment. Nothing in the bill cannot be dealt with through the amendment. What the amendment does not do is specify what the written agreements are. It provides a framework to which the Parliament, the Finance Committee, the minister and other committees can refer as a method of deliberation and as a means to update the bill when it becomes law. We need flexibility but we also need to have building blocks in the bill that satisfy the requirements that have been stated on a cross- party basis in the Finance Committee. It is refreshing that people do not divide on party lines in that committee, which has approached the issue positively and sensibly. All members of the committee have made contributions. The wording of the amendment might not be perfect, but I am happy to let the minister use the powers given to him by the standing orders to change the wording to make it more suitable. However, the amendment satisfies the general desire of the members of the Finance Committee. I see that I am being frowned at by Liberal Democrat members, but we have had a good discussion in the committee. We have demonstrated trust, in that the Finance Committee does not have the written agreements in a discussed form. The amendment would ensure that, whatever discussions take place, either with this Executive or a future one—which might be of a different persuasion—there is an opportunity for this Parliament to deal with the process. In saying so, we support the amendment.", "EditedTextHTML": "Much of what the previous speakers have said relates to the honesty with which this Parliament is approaching what could be a very good bill for Scotland.

We support, in principle, what Andrew Wilson is trying to achieve with his amendment. Nothing in the bill cannot be dealt with through the amendment. What the amendment does not do is specify what the written agreements are. It provides a framework to which the Parliament, the Finance Committee, the minister and other committees can refer as a method of deliberation and as a means to update the bill when it becomes law.

We need flexibility but we also need to have building blocks in the bill that satisfy the requirements that have been stated on a cross- party basis in the Finance Committee. It is refreshing that people do not divide on party lines in that committee, which has approached the issue positively and sensibly. All members of the committee have made contributions. The wording of the amendment might not be perfect, but I am happy to let the minister use the powers given to him by the standing orders to change the wording to make it more suitable. However, the amendment satisfies the general desire of the members of the Finance Committee.

I see that I am being frowned at by Liberal Democrat members, but we have had a good discussion in the committee. We have demonstrated trust, in that the Finance Committee does not have the written agreements in a discussed form. The amendment would ensure that, whatever discussions take place, either with this Executive or a future one—which might be of a different persuasion—there is an opportunity for this Parliament to deal with the process. In saying so, we support the amendment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C712762", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 91.0, "ContributionID": 712762, "EditedText": "I address the specific point that I made, that this amendment would give more power to the ministers than has ever been envisaged by our drafting of the bill. I do not have strong views on whether the procedure for agreeing written agreements should be in legislation, although I think that it is better that it is not. If the amendment had addressed that point, we could perhaps have gone ahead today. I do not think that it is necessary to break up the debate and adjourn, to revisit this amendment. I have said very clearly on the record today that these written agreements will be agreed. It will be up to the Parliamentary Bureau to decide how the Parliament agrees them. However, it will be for this Parliament as well as for the Executive to agree them.", "EditedTextHTML": "I address the specific point that I made, that this amendment would give more power to the ministers than has ever been envisaged by our drafting of the bill.

I do not have strong views on whether the procedure for agreeing written agreements should be in legislation, although I think that it is better that it is not. If the amendment had addressed that point, we could perhaps have gone ahead today. I do not think that it is necessary to break up the debate and adjourn, to revisit this amendment. I have said very clearly on the record today that these written agreements will be agreed. It will be up to the Parliamentary Bureau to decide how the Parliament agrees them. However, it will be for this Parliament as well as for the Executive to agree them.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C712768", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 103.0, "ContributionID": 712768, "EditedText": "It is unfortunate that, when we have been trying to build a consensus around this bill, and when the revised arrangements are based on the comments of the Finance Committee and the Audit Committee that were circulated last week and are in the public domain, we are facing what I regard as an attempt by Mr Swinney to point-score about the timing of the arrangements. I do not think that that is appropriate. Today a firm undertaking has again been given that these understandings will not be put in place without the agreement of this Parliament, which is exactly what this amendment is meant to be about. Because such an undertaking has been given, the amendment is unnecessary. It would give additional powers to ministers that my version of the understandings would not give and, as Dr Simpson has correctly pointed out, would put in place an inflexible list of arrangements that could not be added to. That would be wrong, because we may want to have more understandings in the future. Those are the points that have been made, and I hope that they inform the judgment that members make.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is unfortunate that, when we have been trying to build a consensus around this bill, and when the revised arrangements are based on the comments of the Finance Committee and the Audit Committee that were circulated last week and are in the public domain, we are facing what I regard as an attempt by Mr Swinney to point-score about the timing of the arrangements. I do not think that that is appropriate.

Today a firm undertaking has again been given that these understandings will not be put in place without the agreement of this Parliament, which is exactly what this amendment is meant to be about. Because such an undertaking has been given, the amendment is unnecessary. It would give additional powers to ministers that my version of the understandings would not give and, as Dr Simpson has correctly pointed out, would put in place an inflexible list of arrangements that could

not be added to. That would be wrong, because we may want to have more understandings in the future. Those are the points that have been made, and I hope that they inform the judgment that members make.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C712769", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Davidson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 105.0, "ContributionID": 712769, "EditedText": "I thank the minister for giving way.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the minister for giving way.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C712778", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 120.0, "ContributionID": 712778, "EditedText": "The minister will nowmove amendment 1, with which we will debate amendments 18 and 19.", "EditedTextHTML": "The minister will now

move amendment 1, with which we will debate amendments 18 and 19.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C712779", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 122.0, "ContributionID": 712779, "EditedText": "I move amendment 1, which responds to a suggestion that was made by the Finance Committee. It changes the way in which the control of ministerial spending under the contingency arrangements set out in section 3 of the bill is set. The bill originally proposed that the total spend in any one year under those arrangements should be no more than £50 million, and provided that that figure could be uprated by order. The amendment is intended to remove the need to make such orders by setting a control that is a percentage of the expenditure authorised by the Parliament under the terms of section 1 of the bill—a percentage of the resource expenditure authorised in the annual budget act, which will vary from year to year—and that takes account of increases due to inflation. The two amendments to section 25 are consequential on amendment 1 and remove references to the process of revising by order the limit on contingency spending.", "EditedTextHTML": "I move amendment 1, which responds to a suggestion that was made by the Finance Committee. It changes the way in which the control of ministerial spending under the contingency arrangements set out in section 3 of the bill is set. The bill originally proposed that the total spend in any one year under those arrangements should be no more than £50 million, and provided that that figure could be uprated by order.

The amendment is intended to remove the need to make such orders by setting a control that is a percentage of the expenditure authorised by the Parliament under the terms of section 1 of the bill—a percentage of the resource expenditure authorised in the annual budget act, which will vary from year to year—and that takes account of increases due to inflation.

The two amendments to section 25 are consequential on amendment 1 and remove references to the process of revising by order the limit on contingency spending.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712781", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 126.0, "ContributionID": 712781, "EditedText": "Amendment 1 agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment 1 agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712782", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 127.0, "ContributionID": 712782, "EditedText": "Section 8—Borrowing by certain statutorybodies", "EditedTextHTML": "Section 8—Borrowing by certain statutorybodies

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1906E278P355C712785", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Welsh, Andrew", "ID": 1906, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Angus" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Welsh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Andrew Welsh (Angus) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 134.0, "ContributionID": 712785, "EditedText": "Amendment 21 says that \"the Scottish Ministers shall seek to ensure that the aggregate amount of relevant expenditure . . . does not exceed the amount specified for that year\". Could the minister explain how? What powers and what monitoring does the Executive propose will be used?", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment 21 says that

\"the Scottish Ministers shall seek to ensure that the aggregate amount of relevant expenditure . . . does not exceed the amount specified for that year\".

Could the minister explain how? What powers and what monitoring does the Executive propose will be used?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1990E181P340C712787", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robson, Euan", "ID": 1990, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Roxburgh and Berwickshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Euan Robson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Euan Robson (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 138.0, "ContributionID": 712787, "EditedText": "I seek clarification on subsection (6) of amendment 21. Is the minister suggesting that he is taking new powers to determine the methodology of annual capital receipts and capital expenditure? I understand the point that he made about bringing to Parliament the whole question of his decisions, but in that subsection is there any new mechanism or new power granted to ministers to change the methodology?", "EditedTextHTML": "I seek clarification on subsection (6) of amendment 21. Is the minister suggesting that he is taking new powers to determine the methodology of annual capital receipts and capital expenditure? I understand the point that he made about bringing to Parliament the whole question of his decisions, but in that subsection is there any new mechanism or new power granted to

ministers to change the methodology?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712790", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 143.0, "ContributionID": 712790, "EditedText": "Section 9—Keeper of the Registers of Scotland: financial arrangements", "EditedTextHTML": "Section 9—Keeper of the Registers of Scotland: financial arrangements

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C712791", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 144.0, "ContributionID": 712791, "EditedText": "The next series of amendments are technical, so I will be as brief as I can be. Amendment 3 is a technical amendment. Section 9 of the bill intends that the Keeper of the Registers of Scotland should operate on a trading fund basis. In other words, his expenses are to be funded from his income, without the authority of Parliament. Of course, the keeper will not have a free hand, as section 9 already ensures that he will have to meet the financial objectives that are set by ministers. The amendment is necessary to ensure that section 9 operates as intended. Without it, all the controls that are set out in part 1 of the bill would apply to the keeper, and a trading fund style of operation would not be possible. The amendment rectifies the situation by specifying that the only section of part 1 that applies to the keeper is section 6. Section 6 covers procedures for repaying money that has been paid into the Scottish consolidated fund in error, as it is possible that the keeper might erroneously pay money into the SCF. The application of this provision to the keeper is appropriate. I hope that members support this amendment. I move amendment 3.", "EditedTextHTML": "The next series of amendments are technical, so I will be as brief as I can be.

Amendment 3 is a technical amendment. Section 9 of the bill intends that the Keeper of the Registers of Scotland should operate on a trading fund basis. In other words, his expenses are to be funded from his income, without the authority of Parliament. Of course, the keeper will not have a free hand, as section 9 already ensures that he will have to meet the financial objectives that are set by ministers.

The amendment is necessary to ensure that section 9 operates as intended. Without it, all the controls that are set out in part 1 of the bill would apply to the keeper, and a trading fund style of operation would not be possible. The amendment rectifies the situation by specifying that the only section of part 1 that applies to the keeper is section 6. Section 6 covers procedures for repaying money that has been paid into the Scottish consolidated fund in error, as it is possible that the keeper might erroneously pay money into the SCF. The application of this provision to the keeper is appropriate. I hope that members support this amendment.

I move amendment 3.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712792", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 146.0, "ContributionID": 712792, "EditedText": "Amendment 3 agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment 3 agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C712794", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 148.0, "ContributionID": 712794, "EditedText": "I move amendment 24. I will also speak to amendments 25 and 26. The main amendment is amendment 26. It is largely technical, and has the purpose of ensuring that there is adequate provision to allow the preparation of consolidated accounts. In particular, it would enable Scottish ministers to obtain financial information from bodies outwith the Scottish Administration. Although there is no immediate intention to produce consolidated accounts incorporating bodies outwith what is known in accounting as the departmental boundary, and because any such intention would require a considerable planning cycle, it is felt prudent to make adequate provision now. Amendment 24 prohibits Audit Scotland from charging the Scottish Administration for work undertaken in connection with any consolidated public accounts. That is in accordance with other arrangements set out in the bill that already ensure that Audit Scotland is not able to charge the Scottish Administration for any work that it undertakes, as funding for that type of work will be arranged through budget acts. Amendment 25 is consequential on amendment 26 and removes the reference to consolidated accounts in section 18, as amendment 26 removes the requirement for that.", "EditedTextHTML": "I move amendment 24. I will also speak to amendments 25 and 26.

The main amendment is amendment 26. It is largely technical, and has the purpose of ensuring that there is adequate provision to allow the preparation of consolidated accounts. In particular, it would enable Scottish ministers to obtain financial information from bodies outwith the Scottish Administration. Although there is no immediate intention to produce consolidated accounts incorporating bodies outwith what is known in accounting as the departmental boundary, and because any such intention would require a considerable planning cycle, it is felt prudent to make adequate provision now.

Amendment 24 prohibits Audit Scotland from charging the Scottish Administration for work undertaken in connection with any consolidated public accounts. That is in accordance with other arrangements set out in the bill that already ensure that Audit Scotland is not able to charge the Scottish Administration for any work that it undertakes, as funding for that type of work will be arranged through budget acts.

Amendment 25 is consequential on amendment 26 and removes the reference to consolidated accounts in section 18, as amendment 26 removes the requirement for that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712798", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 155.0, "ContributionID": 712798, "EditedText": "Amendment 4 agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment 4 agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712802", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 161.0, "ContributionID": 712802, "EditedText": "Amendment 5 agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment 5 agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712803", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 162.0, "ContributionID": 712803, "EditedText": "Section 17A—Audit Scotland: accountable officer", "EditedTextHTML": "Section 17A—Audit Scotland: accountable officer

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C712809", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 171.0, "ContributionID": 712809, "EditedText": "The minister will now move amendment 7, with which we will also debate amendment 8.", "EditedTextHTML": "The minister will now move amendment 7, with which we will also debate amendment 8.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C712810", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 173.0, "ContributionID": 712810, "EditedText": "I move amendment 7, the purpose of which is to remove the provision that specifically allows the Auditor General to appoint a member of the staff of Audit Scotland as an auditor. That provision is unnecessary. A similar result can be achieved by the Auditor General for Scotland making use of the power of delegation in section 13(5). Amendment 8 is to clarify that the AGS, in making an appointment, must take into account not only the person's professional qualifications and experience, but any other relevant matters. Such matters may include whether the person has the necessary resources to undertake the scale of audit that is being considered. That person must, none the less, still have the minimum qualifications that are set out in the bill; that is, he or she must be eligible to be a company auditor or must be a member of a body of accountants that has been established in the United Kingdom or another European economic area state. I should make it clear that the term \"a body of accountants\" is intended to refer to a body exercising a supervisory role in relation to the profession, and not simply to an informal collection of accountants.", "EditedTextHTML": "I move amendment 7, the purpose of which is to remove the provision that specifically allows the Auditor General to appoint a member of the staff of Audit Scotland as an auditor. That provision is unnecessary. A similar result can be achieved by the Auditor General for Scotland making use of the power of delegation in section 13(5).

Amendment 8 is to clarify that the AGS, in making an appointment, must take into account not only the person's professional qualifications and experience, but any other relevant matters. Such matters may include whether the person has the necessary resources to undertake the scale of audit that is being considered. That person must, none the less, still have the minimum qualifications that are set out in the bill; that is, he or she must be eligible to be a company auditor or must be a member of a body of accountants that has been established in the United Kingdom or another European economic area state.

I should make it clear that the term \"a body of accountants\" is intended to refer to a body exercising a supervisory role in relation to the profession, and not simply to an informal collection of accountants.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C712811", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 175.0, "ContributionID": 712811, "EditedText": "I am sure that that is very reassuring.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sure that that is very reassuring.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712813", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 178.0, "ContributionID": 712813, "EditedText": "Amendment 8 moved—Mr McConnell—and agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment 8 moved—[Mr McConnell]—and agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1990E181P340C712818", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robson, Euan", "ID": 1990, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Roxburgh and Berwickshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Euan Robson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Euan Robson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 187.0, "ContributionID": 712818, "EditedText": "I welcome the changes to the threshold; the quarter figure is much more acceptable than the half. I note what Mr Welsh, the convener of the Audit Committee, has said. However, having asked some parliamentary questions about this matter in an attempt to find out which organisations might be concerned, I know that it is difficult to get an understanding of precisely which bodies might be involved below the quarter threshold. The quarter threshold is a good starting point. It was also sensible to include the £500,000 figure; that is an important development. I welcome the flexibility of the minister's approach to the matter. The amendments, if they are agreed to, will improve the bill considerably.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the changes to the threshold; the quarter figure is much more acceptable than the half. I note what Mr Welsh, the convener of the Audit Committee, has said. However, having asked some parliamentary questions about this matter in an attempt to find out which organisations might be concerned, I know that it is difficult to get an understanding of precisely which bodies might be involved below the quarter threshold.

The quarter threshold is a good starting point. It was also sensible to include the £500,000 figure; that is an important development. I welcome the flexibility of the minister's approach to the matter. The amendments, if they are agreed to, will improve the bill considerably.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C712821", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 193.0, "ContributionID": 712821, "EditedText": "When considering this matter, it is important to differentiate clearly between access to financial and other information and value-for-money studies. The amendment is primarily about value-for-money studies, for which it was entirely appropriate—in the light of the discussions that we had—to review the threshold and to bring it down from 50 per cent to 25 per cent.", "EditedTextHTML": "When considering this matter, it is important to differentiate clearly between access to financial and other information and value-for-money studies. The amendment is primarily about value-for-money studies, for which it was entirely appropriate—in the light of the discussions that we had—to review the threshold and to bring it down from 50 per cent to 25 per cent.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C712823", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 197.0, "ContributionID": 712823, "EditedText": "It may be helpful for Mr Adam to listen to my point; afterwards, I will bring him in. If we were to go below 25 per cent, a wide range of organisations that receive a very small proportion of their money from public funds would be included on a compulsory basis. They may then hold back from applying for public funds because of the possibility of a value-for-money exercise. The amendment does not restrict the Auditor General's power to get access to information for any of the audits that he is carrying out. Section 22 gives the Auditor General wide-ranging powers to gain access not only—as part of one of his audits of another body—to information from bodies that have received public funds, but to documentation that relevant persons might have that could affect that audit or the use of public funds. That wide- ranging provision gives the Auditor General for Scotland the power to look after the public pound as far as he or—perhaps in the future—she will ever have to. The provision is important and must be compared with the 25 per cent figure for value-for-money studies. The latter provision, combined with the provision for a specific agreed value-for-money audit to be carried out by the Auditor General for Scotland for bodies that receive less than 25 per cent of their income from public funds, covers the exceptional circumstances that have been mentioned. Mr Johnston may disagree about the interpretation, but I hope that he will agree that the combination of those two provisions gives the Auditor General sufficient powers to look after public funds in Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "It may be helpful for Mr Adam to listen to my point; afterwards, I will bring him in.

If we were to go below 25 per cent, a wide range of organisations that receive a very small proportion of their money from public funds would be included on a compulsory basis. They may then hold back from applying for public funds because of the possibility of a value-for-money exercise.

The amendment does not restrict the Auditor General's power to get access to information for any of the audits that he is carrying out. Section 22 gives the Auditor General wide-ranging powers to gain access not only—as part of one of his audits of another body—to information from bodies that have received public funds, but to documentation that relevant persons might have that could affect that audit or the use of public funds. That wide- ranging provision gives the Auditor General for Scotland the power to look after the public pound as far as he or—perhaps in the future—she will ever have to.

The provision is important and must be compared with the 25 per cent figure for value-for-money studies. The latter provision, combined with the provision for a specific agreed value-for-money audit to be carried out by the Auditor General for Scotland for bodies that receive less than 25 per cent of their income from public funds, covers the exceptional circumstances that have been mentioned. Mr Johnston may disagree about the interpretation, but I hope that he will agree that the combination of those two provisions gives the Auditor General sufficient powers to look after public funds in Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1926E190P479C712824", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Adam, Brian", "ID": 1926, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Adam", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Brian Adam: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 199.0, "ContributionID": 712824, "EditedText": "Like others, I welcome the concession that the minister has made. However, not everybody is used to reading legalistic documents. I therefore ask the minister to clarify two technical points and respond to the detailed point made by Mr Johnston about what I had understood was the agreement to reduce the threshold to 0 per cent in exceptional circumstances. Will the minister clarify whether amendment 9 allows the Auditor General free access to any organisation that expends public money, as Andrew Welsh and Nick Johnston would like? My second point is perhaps even more technical. Amendment 12 would delete the words \"the condition in\" from section 21(3)(b), which refers to whether, \"in the case of a class of body or office-holder, the condition in paragraph (a) is satisfied in relation to at least half of those in the class.\" I am not sure whether\"half of those in the class\"is another area where the threshold should be 25 per cent rather than 50 per cent. Indeed, I am not sure what exactly is meant by those words. How will the minister honour his pledge to allow full access to information from any organisation that spends public moneys in exceptional circumstances?", "EditedTextHTML": "Like others, I welcome the concession that the minister has made. However, not everybody is used to reading legalistic documents. I therefore ask the minister to clarify two technical points and respond to the detailed point made by Mr Johnston about what I had understood was the agreement to reduce the threshold to 0 per cent in exceptional circumstances. Will the minister clarify whether amendment 9 allows the Auditor General free access to any organisation that expends public money, as Andrew Welsh and Nick Johnston would like?

My second point is perhaps even more technical. Amendment 12 would delete the words \"the condition in\" from section 21(3)(b), which refers to whether,

\"in the case of a class of body or office-holder, the condition in paragraph (a) is satisfied in relation to at least half of those in the class.\"

I am not sure whether

\"half of those in the class\"

is another area where the threshold should be 25 per cent rather than 50 per cent. Indeed, I am not sure what exactly is meant by those words. How will the minister honour his pledge to allow full access to information from any organisation that spends public moneys in exceptional circumstances?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C712825", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 201.0, "ContributionID": 712825, "EditedText": "The words\"half of those in the class\"refer to the class of body or office-holder, which is mentioned in the line above. On access to information in exceptional circumstances, section 22 of the bill gives the Auditor General the power to seek the information to which Mr Adam, Mr Welsh and Mr Johnston refer. That is different from conducting a value-for-money exercise. I suspect that if a body in Scotland that received less than 25 per cent of its income from public funds—and that was subject to parliamentary scrutiny or debate because of the way in which that money was spent—refused to agree to a value-for-money study that the Parliament felt was reasonable, the Parliament would not agree to that body getting the 10 or 15 per cent of its income that it got from public moneys in the following year. That is the control that we would have and why the bill will work by agreement, without an audit being imposed. We need to set some priorities for the Auditor General for Scotland, which is what the amendment seeks to do. The amendment follows the public pound and ensures that proper value- for-money exercises can be carried out, but it does so in a way that prioritises the elements of public finance that are substantial and whose scrutiny is therefore in the public interest.", "EditedTextHTML": "The words

\"half of those in the class\"

refer to the class of body or office-holder, which is mentioned in the line above.

On access to information in exceptional circumstances, section 22 of the bill gives the Auditor General the power to seek the information to which Mr Adam, Mr Welsh and Mr Johnston refer. That is different from conducting a value-for-money exercise. I suspect that if a body in Scotland that received less than 25 per cent of its income from public funds—and that was subject to parliamentary scrutiny or debate because of the way in which that money was spent—refused to agree to a value-for-money study that the Parliament felt was reasonable, the Parliament would not agree to that body getting the 10 or 15 per cent of its income that it got from public moneys in the following year. That is the control that we would have and why the bill will work by agreement, without an audit being imposed.

We need to set some priorities for the Auditor General for Scotland, which is what the amendment seeks to do. The amendment follows the public pound and ensures that proper value- for-money exercises can be carried out, but it does so in a way that prioritises the elements of public finance that are substantial and whose scrutiny is therefore in the public interest.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712826", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 203.0, "ContributionID": 712826, "EditedText": "Amendment 9 agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment 9 agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C712829", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Davidson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 207.0, "ContributionID": 712829, "EditedText": "To clarify that point, will the minister say whether he has in mind a pecking order in terms of who initiates what? There is some ambiguity—I hope that the minister will pardon me, but I am not sure about the way in which he has drafted the provision. Is it the Auditor General who will ask the Water Industry Commissioner to get involved in a value-for-money study, or will the commissioner do that automatically and then report to the Auditor General? Alternatively, will they have two separate, independent functions? From the Parliament's point of view, would the Auditor General kick-start the study?", "EditedTextHTML": "To clarify that point, will the minister say whether he has in mind a pecking order in terms of who initiates what? There is some ambiguity—I hope that the minister will pardon me, but I am not sure about the way in which he has drafted the provision. Is it the Auditor General who will ask the Water Industry Commissioner to get involved in a value-for-money study, or will the commissioner do that automatically and then report to the Auditor General? Alternatively, will they have two separate, independent functions? From the Parliament's point of view, would the Auditor General kick-start the study?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C712831", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Davidson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 211.0, "ContributionID": 712831, "EditedText": "Can I ask the minister for further clarification?", "EditedTextHTML": "Can I ask the minister for further clarification?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C712832", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 213.0, "ContributionID": 712832, "EditedText": "No, Mr Davidson.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, Mr Davidson.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C712836", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 219.0, "ContributionID": 712836, "EditedText": "Given the shortage of time, I will shorten my remarks on amendments 28 and 29, both of which are technical. Their intention is simply to maintain existing arrangements in relation to water authorities' working capital flexibility. The bill, as drafted, would apply parliamentary control to all borrowing by the new water and sewerage authorities. The controls would extend to borrowing by means of bank overdraft to meet a day-to-day excess of expenditure over income. The controls could severely limit the authorities in managing their expenditure efficiently, because they would have to ensure that, at the year end, they had not exceeded the borrowing limit set by Parliament. That might require them to reduce their investment on capital projects so as to be certain that they would not be exceeding their borrowing authority. Presently, administrative arrangements allow the authorities to operate an overdraft facility that does not count against the Parliament's budget. The bill, as drafted, would remove that flexibility; the amendments are intended to reinstate it. I hope that members will agree to them. I move amendment 28.", "EditedTextHTML": "Given the shortage of time, I will shorten my remarks on amendments 28 and 29, both of which are technical. Their intention is simply to maintain existing arrangements in relation to water authorities' working capital flexibility.

The bill, as drafted, would apply parliamentary control to all borrowing by the new water and sewerage authorities. The controls would extend to borrowing by means of bank overdraft to meet a day-to-day excess of expenditure over income. The controls could severely limit the authorities in managing their expenditure efficiently, because they would have to ensure that, at the year end, they had not exceeded the borrowing limit set by Parliament. That might require them to reduce their investment on capital projects so as to be certain that they would not be exceeding their borrowing authority. Presently, administrative arrangements allow the authorities to operate an overdraft facility that does not count against the Parliament's budget. The bill, as drafted, would remove that flexibility; the amendments are intended to reinstate it. I hope that members will agree to them.

I move amendment 28.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C712839", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27145, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 223.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 223.0, "ID": 27145, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Patricia Ferguson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 224.0, "ContributionID": 712839, "EditedText": "I invite Mr McConnell to move motion S1M-320.", "EditedTextHTML": "I invite Mr McConnell to move motion S1M-320.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C712845", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27145, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 223.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 223.0, "ID": 27145, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 240.0, "ContributionID": 712845, "EditedText": "I should have called Keith Raffan to open for the Liberal Democrats; my apologies.", "EditedTextHTML": "I should have called Keith Raffan to open for the Liberal Democrats; my apologies.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C712846", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27145, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 223.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 223.0, "ID": 27145, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Keith Raffan (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 243.0, "ContributionID": 712846, "EditedText": "I am happy to follow Mr Martin, particularly given his remarks about the press gallery. It is interesting that the press gallery is so full when something minor or trivial happens, yet when the Parliament does a piece of work that is not just solid and substantial, but a first-class model for other countries—I include the United Kingdom and Westminster in that description—so many of the journalists have left. I am glad that there are a few more journalists now. The last time we debated the matter, there was only one journalist in the press gallery. We in the Finance Committee like percentages, so I could say that the amount of journalists has increased by 400 per cent. Laughter. The bill goes to the heart of the relationship between the Parliament and the Executive. I doubt that the Parliament will pass a more important bill in this session. The bill establishes the financial management framework for the future. Most important, it establishes the budget-making process and the relationship between the Executive and the Parliament and the Parliament and its committees in that respect. It is not just a question of the Executive's accountability to Parliament, or to the Finance Committee and the Audit Committee in particular. What is important is that those committees and the Parliament will be involved in the budget-making process. That is central to the bill and it is infinitely superior to anything at Westminster. I hope that what we have done today will have a reaction—occasionally at Westminster there is a response as well as reaction—and that the UK Parliament will begin to debate its right to be involved in the budget-making process. Some questions remain. There is a question about stage 1 of the budget bill. The Minister has given a guarantee that he will provide a provisional expenditure plan for that crucial stage. At the beginning of the financial year, between April and July, not just the Finance Committee and the Audit Committee, but the subject committees, will have an opportunity to have input into the budget- making process. The provisional expenditure plan must be fairly detailed if the committees are to be able to make an intelligent judgment about different spending priorities. Stage 2 will be in the autumn. September 20 is when the minister is likely to introduce his detailed budget, and by the end of November we will need to have fully debated and discussed it in the Finance Committee, the Audit Committee and the subject committees. That is a very short period. In the light of experience, we may well have to try to lengthen it. Those are some current reservations—there are very few—about the bill. Much will be revised in the light of experience. As soon as we move into the new financial year—the first full financial year of the Parliament—we will be able to make a judgment about how well the process is working. As the minister rightly said, we are leading the way. It is important that we pay tribute—as all parties have—to the financial issues advisory group. If it had not been for its excellent work—the foundation for the bill—we would not be at this stage now. It is very important to pay tribute to those who, in the run-up to the Parliament, produced a very fine piece of work to help us to do our work once we were elected. Credit is due to them, and from now on—as authors always say at the beginning of their books—all the mistakes will be ours. I am sure that the press and the voters will remind us of that in the months and years to come. I am happy to support the bill. I believe that it sets out a budget-making process for Scotland that is a model of its kind and to which other countries will look in future.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am happy to follow Mr Martin, particularly given his remarks about the press gallery. It is interesting that the press gallery is so full when something minor or trivial happens, yet when the Parliament does a piece of work that is not just solid and substantial, but a first-class model for other countries—I include the United Kingdom and Westminster in that description—so many of the journalists have left. I am glad that there are a few more journalists now. The last time we debated the matter, there was only one journalist in the press gallery. We in the Finance Committee like percentages, so I could say that the amount of journalists has increased by 400 per cent. [Laughter.]

The bill goes to the heart of the relationship between the Parliament and the Executive. I doubt that the Parliament will pass a more important bill in this session. The bill establishes the financial management framework for the future. Most important, it establishes the budget-making process and the relationship between the Executive and the Parliament and the Parliament

and its committees in that respect. It is not just a question of the Executive's accountability to Parliament, or to the Finance Committee and the Audit Committee in particular. What is important is that those committees and the Parliament will be involved in the budget-making process. That is central to the bill and it is infinitely superior to anything at Westminster.

I hope that what we have done today will have a reaction—occasionally at Westminster there is a response as well as reaction—and that the UK Parliament will begin to debate its right to be involved in the budget-making process.

Some questions remain. There is a question about stage 1 of the budget bill. The Minister has given a guarantee that he will provide a provisional expenditure plan for that crucial stage. At the beginning of the financial year, between April and July, not just the Finance Committee and the Audit Committee, but the subject committees, will have an opportunity to have input into the budget- making process. The provisional expenditure plan must be fairly detailed if the committees are to be able to make an intelligent judgment about different spending priorities.

Stage 2 will be in the autumn. September 20 is when the minister is likely to introduce his detailed budget, and by the end of November we will need to have fully debated and discussed it in the Finance Committee, the Audit Committee and the subject committees. That is a very short period. In the light of experience, we may well have to try to lengthen it.

Those are some current reservations—there are very few—about the bill. Much will be revised in the light of experience. As soon as we move into the new financial year—the first full financial year of the Parliament—we will be able to make a judgment about how well the process is working.

As the minister rightly said, we are leading the way. It is important that we pay tribute—as all parties have—to the financial issues advisory group. If it had not been for its excellent work—the foundation for the bill—we would not be at this stage now.

It is very important to pay tribute to those who, in the run-up to the Parliament, produced a very fine piece of work to help us to do our work once we were elected. Credit is due to them, and from now on—as authors always say at the beginning of their books—all the mistakes will be ours. I am sure that the press and the voters will remind us of that in the months and years to come.

I am happy to support the bill. I believe that it sets out a budget-making process for Scotland that is a model of its kind and to which other countries will look in future.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C712849", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27145, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 223.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 223.0, "ID": 27145, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan (Falkirk West): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 252.0, "ContributionID": 712849, "EditedText": "The declared aim of the bill is to make public finances accountable. I am not sure that the bill will achieve that aim to the extent to which many of us would like. I will give the minister an example, on which I would like him to respond. Last year, serious allegations were made about misappropriation of public funds by senior management of the former Central Scotland Healthcare NHS Trust. The prima facie evidence was so strong that it convinced Mr John Rafferty, who was then chairman of the trust, to arrange for the setting up of an independent review panel to investigate the matter, which was also reported to the procurator fiscal. Mr Rafferty, who is now special adviser to the First Minister, gave me a commitment at that time that the findings of the independent review panel would be made public. Sam Galbraith, then the health minister, reiterated that commitment in a parliamentary reply given to me in the House of Commons in January. That commitment has never been fully honoured. I want to know how this bill will ensure the honouring of that commitment. Last week, Forth Valley Primary Care NHS Trust published a report of an internal audit that raises more questions than it answers. It identifies failures and irregularities but it does not identify who was responsible or say how much public money was misappropriated. Those are matters of legitimate public concern. Will the minister tell us whether this bill will help to ensure public access to information about alleged misappropriation of public funds? Last week, we had a statement about freedom of information; this week, we have this bill, which is a statement about the need to bring public finances more to public account. It is time that we turned those fine words into action.", "EditedTextHTML": "The declared aim of the bill is to make public finances accountable. I am not sure that the bill will achieve that aim to the extent to which many of us would like. I will give the minister an example, on which I would like him to respond.

Last year, serious allegations were made about misappropriation of public funds by senior management of the former Central Scotland Healthcare NHS Trust. The prima facie evidence was so strong that it convinced Mr John Rafferty, who was then chairman of the trust, to arrange for the setting up of an independent review panel to investigate the matter, which was also reported to the procurator fiscal. Mr Rafferty, who is now special adviser to the First Minister, gave me a commitment at that time that the findings of the independent review panel would be made public.

Sam Galbraith, then the health minister, reiterated that commitment in a parliamentary reply given to me in the House of Commons in January. That commitment has never been fully honoured. I want to know how this bill will ensure the honouring of that commitment.

Last week, Forth Valley Primary Care NHS Trust published a report of an internal audit that raises more questions than it answers. It identifies failures and irregularities but it does not identify who was responsible or say how much public money was misappropriated. Those are matters of legitimate public concern. Will the minister tell us whether this bill will help to ensure public access to information about alleged misappropriation of public funds?

Last week, we had a statement about freedom of information; this week, we have this bill, which is a statement about the need to bring public finances more to public account. It is time that we turned those fine words into action.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C712853", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27145, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 223.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 223.0, "ID": 27145, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 263.0, "ContributionID": 712853, "EditedText": "I wish to reiterate my thanks to those outwith the bill team who were involved in producing the bill. I also wish to record my thanks to the officials who managed to deliver a bill that, in September, was presented to Parliament two weeks ahead of schedule. Even at that stage, I did not really expect that my hope of a Christmas finish would be met. However, today we have managed to reach stage 3 and the closing speeches three weeks ahead of schedule. I wish to thank those officials for their help in ensuring that that happened. It has given me a lot of pleasure to be part of the team that produced the bill and to speak to the bill today. This has been an interesting, if short, debate, covering many issues that are crucial to the good management of the Parliament's finances. I do not want to pick up on the various close-to-party-political points that have been made. While that might liven up the afternoon, I do not think that it would be appropriate. Twenty years ago, I was one of Dennis Canavan's constituents. I clearly remember him entering his second term in Parliament and entertaining the students of the University of Stirling with descriptions of appropriations in aid and various other phrases used at Westminster in order to, as he put it then, confuse members of Parliament and the public, and to hide decisions away from openness and transparency. I am pleased that we have produced a set of procedures that will use plainer English and will be more open and transparent. However, I also remember Dennis describing to us at great length how he was able to use the procedures of the House of Commons to raise issues in debates that people were not expecting or which were not appropriate. He clearly still has that talent 20 years on. It would not be appropriate to talk about the former Central Scotland Healthcare NHS Trust today, but it is important to note that the Auditor General for Scotland will be responsible for auditing the health service in Scotland and that the powers that this bill gives the Auditor General will ensure that the health service is subject to more scrutiny than it has had for a long time. The bill is not the end of a process. Granting resources and scrutinising the use of them ranks among the most important functions of any Parliament. Detailed procedures will be put in place and will be agreed in the Parliament, but they will have to evolve to suit changing circumstances. We must be vigilant to ensure that the procedures remain appropriate; we must not be afraid to make changes if circumstances demand that we do. The bill provides the framework for the proper conduct of financial affairs by this Parliament, the Executive and other bodies.", "EditedTextHTML": "I wish to reiterate my thanks to those outwith the bill team who were involved in producing the bill. I also wish to record my thanks to the officials who managed to deliver a bill that, in September, was presented to Parliament two weeks ahead of schedule. Even at that stage, I did not really expect that my hope of a Christmas finish would be met. However, today we have managed to reach stage 3 and the closing speeches three weeks ahead of schedule. I wish to thank those officials for their help in ensuring that that happened. It has given me a lot of pleasure to be part of the team that produced the bill and to speak to the bill today.

This has been an interesting, if short, debate, covering many issues that are crucial to the good management of the Parliament's finances. I do not want to pick up on the various close-to-party-political points that have been made. While that might liven up the afternoon, I do not think that it would be appropriate.

Twenty years ago, I was one of Dennis Canavan's constituents. I clearly remember him entering his second term in Parliament and entertaining the students of the University of Stirling with descriptions of appropriations in aid and various other phrases used at Westminster in order to, as he put it then, confuse members of Parliament and the public, and to hide decisions away from openness and transparency.

I am pleased that we have produced a set of procedures that will use plainer English and will be more open and transparent. However, I also remember Dennis describing to us at great length how he was able to use the procedures of the House of Commons to raise issues in debates that people were not expecting or which were not appropriate. He clearly still has that talent 20 years on.

It would not be appropriate to talk about the former Central Scotland Healthcare NHS Trust today, but it is important to note that the Auditor General for Scotland will be responsible for auditing the health service in Scotland and that the powers that this bill gives the Auditor General will ensure that the health service is subject to more scrutiny than it has had for a long time.

The bill is not the end of a process. Granting resources and scrutinising the use of them ranks among the most important functions of any Parliament. Detailed procedures will be put in place and will be agreed in the Parliament, but they will have to evolve to suit changing circumstances. We must be vigilant to ensure that the procedures remain appropriate; we must not be afraid to make changes if circumstances demand that we do. The bill provides the framework for the proper conduct of financial affairs by this Parliament, the Executive and other bodies.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C712856", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27146, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 269.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 269.0, "ID": 27146, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 271.0, "ContributionID": 712856, "EditedText": "The question is, that motion S1M-320, in the name of Mr Jack McConnell, on the Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill, be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "The question is, that motion S1M-320, in the name of Mr Jack McConnell, on the Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill, be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712857", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27146, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 269.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 269.0, "ID": 27146, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 273.0, "ContributionID": 712857, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712858", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27146, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 269.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 269.0, "ID": 27146, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 274.0, "ContributionID": 712858, "EditedText": "That the Parliament agrees that the Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill is passed.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament agrees that the Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill is passed.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C712861", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Co-operative and Mutual Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27147, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 278.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 278.0, "ID": 27147, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 279.0, "ContributionID": 712861, "EditedText": "We now move on to members' business. I ask members who are leaving the chamber to do so quietly. The final item of business is a debate on motion S1M-238, in the name of Cathy Jamieson, on the subject of the co-operative and mutual sector. The debate will conclude, without any question being put, after 30 minutes.", "EditedTextHTML": "We now move on to members' business. I ask members who are leaving the chamber to do so quietly.

The final item of business is a debate on motion S1M-238, in the name of Cathy Jamieson, on the subject of the co-operative and mutual sector. The debate will conclude, without any question being put, after 30 minutes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712863", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Co-operative and Mutual Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27147, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 278.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 278.0, "ID": 27147, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 282.0, "ContributionID": 712863, "EditedText": "That the Parliament notes the significant contribution made by the co-operative and mutual sector in Scotland, and its continued role in promoting social inclusion and community involvement through initiatives such as retail co-ops, food co-ops, housing co-ops, credit unions, community businesses and its youth movement, the Woodcraft Folk, and welcomes the recent setting up of the Scottish co-operative and Mutual Forum, which brings together co-operative organisations from across Scotland. R", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament notes the significant contribution made by the co-operative and mutual sector in Scotland, and its continued role in promoting social inclusion and community involvement through initiatives such as retail co-ops, food co-ops, housing co-ops, credit unions, community businesses and its youth movement, the Woodcraft Folk, and welcomes the recent setting up of the Scottish co-operative and Mutual Forum, which brings together co-operative organisations from across Scotland. R

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2080E130P217C712867", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Co-operative and Mutual Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27147, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 278.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 278.0, "ID": 27147, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lamont, Johann", "ID": 2080, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Pollok" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Johann Lamont", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Johann Lamont (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 292.0, "ContributionID": 712867, "EditedText": "I welcome the opportunity to speak, even if the previous speech was hardly in the spirit of co-operation. I am proud to be a Labour and Co-operative MSP. I declare an interest as a member of the co-operative party. I recognise and applaud the tradition in my area of co-operative activity in the Co-operative party, and importantly in the co-operative Women's Guild, and the co-operative initiatives in the broader community. The Scottish Co-operative and Mutual Forum reflects the diversity of the movement that we seek to celebrate today. There is a tendency to think that co-operative initiatives are the province of woolly-hatted do-gooders, that they are easy or soft options, and that they are not part of the hard debates on the economy and social inclusion. However, co-operation offers a significant contribution to those debates. The reality is that co-operative initiatives involve hard work, risk taking and high levels of trust, and when they work effectively, they are a standing reproach to those who would have us believe that there is no such thing as society, and that as individuals we must be appealed to only on the basest of motives—that of personal gain. The Co-operative movement is not just a movement of the past that was intriguing in its time. It has something to say now and in the future. The Rochdale pioneers knew that, as did the visionaries closer to home in New Lanark. They understood the importance of social inclusion, the liberating influence of education and the power of decision making at local level. Those examples say something to those of us who might be defined as the political class. Vision, the ability to develop policy and to seek and find solutions to the world's problems are not the monopoly of those in elected positions, and we will stand or fall in Parliament by our ability to work with our communities to develop solutions. The Co-operative movement is of significant importance, and is often willing to take responsibility, whereas the private sector, simply looking for quick gain, will not take the risk. co-operative initiatives can meet needs that the public sector is often slow to recognise. Co-operative child care initiatives are a good example of the public sector following on where co-operation has gone previously. The Co-operative movement also offers a variety of interesting options for the future, whether it is in finance, the housing sector or elsewhere. I hope that in the future, those models will be taken up. The most powerful thing about co-operation is that it speaks to the good in us all, and it allows us to be optimistic that we can manage our affairs together and liberate ourselves to work together for the commonweal.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the opportunity to speak, even if the previous speech was hardly in the spirit of co-operation.

I am proud to be a Labour and Co-operative MSP. I declare an interest as a member of the co-operative party. I recognise and applaud the tradition in my area of co-operative activity in the Co-operative party, and importantly in the co-operative Women's Guild, and the co-operative initiatives in the broader community. The Scottish Co-operative and Mutual Forum reflects the diversity of the movement that we seek to celebrate today.

There is a tendency to think that co-operative initiatives are the province of woolly-hatted do-gooders, that they are easy or soft options, and that they are not part of the hard debates on the economy and social inclusion. However, co-operation offers a significant contribution to those debates. The reality is that co-operative initiatives involve hard work, risk taking and high levels of trust, and when they work effectively, they are a standing reproach to those who would have us believe that there is no such thing as society, and that as individuals we must be appealed to only on the basest of motives—that of personal gain.

The Co-operative movement is not just a movement of the past that was intriguing in its time. It has something to say now and in the future. The Rochdale pioneers knew that, as did the visionaries closer to home in New Lanark. They understood the importance of social inclusion, the liberating influence of education and the power of decision making at local level. Those examples say something to those of us who might be defined as the political class. Vision, the ability to develop policy and to seek and find solutions to the world's problems are not the monopoly of those in elected positions, and we will stand or fall in Parliament by our ability to work with our communities to develop solutions.

The Co-operative movement is of significant importance, and is often willing to take responsibility, whereas the private sector, simply looking for quick gain, will not take the risk. co-operative initiatives can meet needs that the public sector is often slow to recognise. Co-operative child care initiatives are a good example of the public sector following on where co-operation has gone previously.

The Co-operative movement also offers a variety of interesting options for the future, whether it is in finance, the housing sector or elsewhere. I hope that in the future, those models will be taken up.

The most powerful thing about co-operation is that it speaks to the good in us all, and it allows us to be optimistic that we can manage our affairs together and liberate ourselves to work together for the commonweal.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1832E96P195C712868", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Co-operative and Mutual Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27147, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 278.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 278.0, "ID": 27147, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Livingstone, Marilyn", "ID": 1832, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Kirkcaldy" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Marilyn Livingstone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Marilyn Livingstone (Kirkcaldy) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 295.0, "ContributionID": 712868, "EditedText": "Like Cathy Jamieson and Johann Lamont, I must declare my interest as a member of the Labour and Co-operative movement. I am proud to be able to say that. The Co-operative movement has been part of my daily life and, like millions of people, I welcome co-operatives in our society. More than 150 years on from the Rochdale pioneers, the co-operative ideal is as relevant as it has ever been. Over the years, the Co-operative party has championed retail co-operatives, working and housing co-operatives, credit unions and the Co-operative Development Agency. The co-operative ideal embraces fully our commitment to the social justice agenda. That agenda is at the heart of all our policies in Parliament. For more than 150 years, co-operative principles have provided a successful blend of individual advancement and collective betterment, and have held dear the key values of equality and democracy. The co-operative and mutual sectors in Scotland have made a significant contribution to the health and economic well-being of the community, through initiatives ranging from food co-ops to community businesses. Those initiatives have enabled many people who feel excluded from our society—for whatever reason—to feel that they are able to take part in their communities. As Cathy Jamieson said, people who feel excluded need help to help themselves. As other members have said, the valuable work of community-based credit unions and housing associations has gone a long way to address those problems. A major expansion of co-operatives within a social economy would provide us with a welcome social and economic alternative. I congratulate Cathy Jamieson on bringing this debate to the chamber and add my support to the recent inception of the Scottish Co-operative and Mutual Forum, which will bring together co-operative organisations across Scotland. I wish the forum every success.", "EditedTextHTML": "Like Cathy Jamieson and Johann Lamont, I must declare my interest as a member of the Labour and Co-operative movement. I am proud to be able to say that.

The Co-operative movement has been part of my daily life and, like millions of people, I welcome co-operatives in our society. More than 150 years on from the Rochdale pioneers, the co-operative ideal is as relevant as it has ever been. Over the years, the Co-operative party has championed retail co-operatives, working and housing co-operatives, credit unions and the Co-operative Development Agency. The co-operative ideal embraces fully our commitment to the social justice agenda. That agenda is at the heart of all our policies in Parliament.

For more than 150 years, co-operative principles have provided a successful blend of individual advancement and collective betterment, and have held dear the key values of equality and democracy. The co-operative and mutual sectors in Scotland have made a significant contribution to the health and economic well-being of the community, through initiatives ranging from food co-ops to community businesses.

Those initiatives have enabled many people who feel excluded from our society—for whatever reason—to feel that they are able to take part in their communities. As Cathy Jamieson said, people who feel excluded need help to help themselves. As other members have said, the valuable work of community-based credit unions and housing associations has gone a long way to address those problems. A major expansion of co-operatives within a social economy would provide us with a welcome social and economic alternative.

I congratulate Cathy Jamieson on bringing this debate to the chamber and add my support to the recent inception of the Scottish Co-operative and Mutual Forum, which will bring together co-operative organisations across Scotland. I wish the forum every success.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C712871", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Co-operative and Mutual Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27147, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 278.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 278.0, "ID": 27147, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Brian Monteith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 304.0, "ContributionID": 712871, "EditedText": "Although I cannot recall my mother's divvy number, I fondly remember shopping in the St Cuthbert's store at Jock's Lodge in Edinburgh. How things have changed. Unfortunately, many of the stores that I remember, especially in Edinburgh, are now public houses. Perhaps there is something to be learned from that. I welcome this debate and the motion. I would like to speak about an area of expertise that I gathered when I was in public relations and working for a co-op—the Edinburgh Bicycle co-operative Ltd. When it started life away back in 1977, it was just three people working in a corner shop of no more than 570 sq ft. All they did was bicycle repairs, and their turnover in that first year was £28,000. Today, Edinburgh Bicycle co-operative is the largest independent bicycle retailer in the United Kingdom. It has 44 full-time staff, and 3,600 sq ft of retail space just up the road from the Parliament in Bruntsfield. It has the largest mail-order catalogue on the market for bikes and accessories—accessories being especially important. That was not meant as a plug; that was meant to show that co-operatives can have an important place in modern life and in the economy of retail Britain. We have to admit that co-operatives are not always successful, so why was the Edinburgh Bicycle Co-operative successful? The difference was that it was oriented towards the customer. It continually reviewed what the customers wanted and had a management structure to do that. It was oriented to marketing and looked outwards rather than just inwards. That is important for any company, whether it is a co-operative limited company or an individual. Co-operatives have a place. We Conservatives have absolutely no reason to fear or oppose them. We want them to be part of the structure of our economy. Any organisation that can encourage me to buy a bike has to have something going for it. It is with pleasure, therefore, that I support this motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "Although I cannot recall my mother's divvy number, I fondly remember shopping in the St Cuthbert's store at Jock's Lodge in Edinburgh. How things have changed. Unfortunately, many of the stores that I remember, especially in

Edinburgh, are now public houses. Perhaps there is something to be learned from that.

I welcome this debate and the motion. I would like to speak about an area of expertise that I gathered when I was in public relations and working for a co-op—the Edinburgh Bicycle co-operative Ltd. When it started life away back in 1977, it was just three people working in a corner shop of no more than 570 sq ft. All they did was bicycle repairs, and their turnover in that first year was £28,000. Today, Edinburgh Bicycle co-operative is the largest independent bicycle retailer in the United Kingdom. It has 44 full-time staff, and 3,600 sq ft of retail space just up the road from the Parliament in Bruntsfield. It has the largest mail-order catalogue on the market for bikes and accessories—accessories being especially important. That was not meant as a plug; that was meant to show that co-operatives can have an important place in modern life and in the economy of retail Britain.

We have to admit that co-operatives are not always successful, so why was the Edinburgh Bicycle Co-operative successful? The difference was that it was oriented towards the customer. It continually reviewed what the customers wanted and had a management structure to do that. It was oriented to marketing and looked outwards rather than just inwards. That is important for any company, whether it is a co-operative limited company or an individual.

Co-operatives have a place. We Conservatives have absolutely no reason to fear or oppose them. We want them to be part of the structure of our economy. Any organisation that can encourage me to buy a bike has to have something going for it. It is with pleasure, therefore, that I support this motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6544826+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1756E184P464C712736", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Beef on the Bone", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27142, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27142, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Grahame, Christine", "ID": 1756, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Christine Grahame", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 38.0, "ContributionID": 712736, "EditedText": "Is the minister aware that the case of Jim Sutherland—heroic hotelier of Lauder—is due to be heard in the criminal appeal court next Tuesday, to determine whether he has a case to answer? Does the minister agree that in the changed circumstances following today's announcement, notwithstanding the pending appeal, the Crown should now abandon the case against him simpliciter?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is the minister aware that the case of Jim Sutherland—heroic hotelier of Lauder—is due to be heard in the criminal appeal court next Tuesday, to determine whether he has a case to answer? Does the minister agree that in the changed circumstances following today's announcement, notwithstanding the pending appeal, the Crown should now abandon the case against him simpliciter?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:01:31.7066757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C712765", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 97.0, "ContributionID": 712765, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:27:39.0629519+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C712767", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27144, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 64.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 64.0, "ID": 27144, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 101.0, "ContributionID": 712767, "EditedText": "I thank the minister for allowing me to intervene. This subject is not an unfamiliar one in debate between the two of us, as we have discussed it many times in the Finance Committee. I refer him to the Official Report of the Finance Committee from 2 October, when I raised exactly the same issue. At stage 2 of the bill, we were encouraged not to amend the contents of the bill, as the written understandings would be in a condition and a position before we completed the process of the bill. We do not have Finance Committee agreement on the contents of those written understandings, yet we are being asked to sign off the process today. I ask the minister, who, in the process of his speech, has not objected in principle to there being reference in legislation to the written understandings, to accept the offer that I have made to him today and to consider this issue, bearing in mind that the Finance Committee's rights have been compromised by the fact that we have not had the opportunity to sign off those written understandings.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the minister for allowing me to intervene. This subject is not an unfamiliar one in debate between the two of us, as we have discussed it many times in the Finance Committee. I refer him to the Official Report of the Finance Committee from 2 October, when I raised exactly the same issue. At stage 2 of the bill, we were encouraged not to amend the contents of the bill, as the written understandings would be in a condition and a position before we completed the process of the bill. We do not have Finance Committee agreement on the contents of those written understandings, yet we are being asked to sign off the process today.

I ask the minister, who, in the process of his speech, has not objected in principle to there being reference in legislation to the written understandings, to accept the offer that I have made to him today and to consider this issue, bearing in mind that the Finance Committee's rights have been compromised by the fact that we have not had the opportunity to sign off those written understandings.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:27:39.0629519+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C712852", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27145, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 223.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 223.0, "ID": 27145, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 260.0, "ContributionID": 712852, "EditedText": "I begin by placing on record thanks from a number of my colleagues to the financial issues advisory group for the considerable work that was put into this area of thinking before our Parliament was established. I am glad that the minister has shown a willingness to go as far as he can to incorporate FIAG's thinking into the bill That is much appreciated. I also wish to record the SNP's thanks to the clerks for their support throughout the process and for helping to enhance the parliamentary process as a result. In his opening speech, the minister set out an impressive list of hopes for the financial management and control process that the bill gives the Parliament. He talked about openness and accessibility and about his determination to meet the demands of the parliamentary process. The SNP warmly welcomes those concepts and commitments: we intend to hold the minister to them vigorously. Last week, the minister produced a glossy document, \"Spending Plans for Scotland\". If that document, with not one real-terms figure in its 24 pages of glossy print, reflects his definition of openness, I am afraid that his definition is different from mine. He gave commitments to ensure that accurate information is available to Parliament— and on time. As an Opposition, we warmly endorse those concepts, but we must look back to some of the steps in the bill's progress and recognise that not all the information was available on time. I return to the major question about the process, which remains unanswered. As we approve the bill today—we will do so in a moment—the Finance Committee has not agreed the financial procedures aspect of the bill. These are important issues about the responsibility of Parliament and the scrutiny that Parliament can exercise over the Executive. The SNP intends to use this Parliament's procedures to ensure that that scrutiny is applied to its fullest extent. However, we need the Executive's co-operation to guarantee that the partnership that has existed so far on these issues can continue during the remainder of this parliamentary session.", "EditedTextHTML": "I begin by placing on record thanks from a number of my colleagues to the financial issues advisory group for the considerable work that was put into this area of thinking before our Parliament was established. I am glad that the minister has shown a willingness to go as far as he can to incorporate FIAG's thinking into the bill That is much appreciated. I also wish to record the SNP's thanks to the clerks for their support throughout the process and for helping to enhance the parliamentary process as a result.

In his opening speech, the minister set out an impressive list of hopes for the financial management and control process that the bill gives the Parliament. He talked about openness and accessibility and about his determination to meet the demands of the parliamentary process. The SNP warmly welcomes those concepts and commitments: we intend to hold the minister to them vigorously.

Last week, the minister produced a glossy document, \"Spending Plans for Scotland\". If that document, with not one real-terms figure in its 24 pages of glossy print, reflects his definition of openness, I am afraid that his definition is different from mine. He gave commitments to ensure that accurate information is available to Parliament— and on time. As an Opposition, we warmly endorse those concepts, but we must look back to some of the steps in the bill's progress and recognise that not all the information was available on time.

I return to the major question about the process, which remains unanswered. As we approve the bill today—we will do so in a moment—the Finance Committee has not agreed the financial procedures aspect of the bill. These are important issues about the responsibility of Parliament and the scrutiny that Parliament can exercise over the Executive. The SNP intends to use this Parliament's procedures to ensure that that scrutiny is applied to its fullest extent. However, we need the Executive's co-operation to guarantee that the partnership that has existed so far on these issues can continue during the remainder of this parliamentary session.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:29:30.3706249+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1783E59P270C712872", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Dec 1999", "ID": 4195 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-12-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Co-operative and Mutual Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27147, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 278.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 278.0, "ID": 27147, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Baillie, Jackie", "ID": 1783, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumbarton" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Jackie Baillie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Communities (Jackie Baillie): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 307.0, "ContributionID": 712872, "EditedText": "I would like to add my congratulations to the many that Cathy Jamieson has already received for securing this debate. It has drawn attention to an important movement in Scotland, which, as we have heard, can make a key contribution to combating social exclusion. As members will recall, last Wednesday we debated \"Social Justice …a Scotland where everyone matters\"—the first part of the Scottish Executive's framework for tackling poverty in Scotland. We said that, in the spring, our action plan would set out our detailed plans for meeting the targets and reaching the milestones that we identified in that document. We have heard much in the past half-hour that the Executive welcomes, and many principles that we have absolutely no difficulty in supporting. I can reassure members that we will consider those ideas in the context of the action plan that we will bring to Parliament. I think that members will agree that the main driver of poverty is worklessness: being without a job for any length of time is the surest guarantee of economic exclusion. We are working closely with Henry McLeish and his enterprise team to promote more inclusive policies and practices. Since its establishment, Highland and Islands Enterprise has had an explicitly social remit. It has three strategic objectives, one of which is strengthening communities. Its priorities for that are: to promote investment in community assets; to develop community strengths and leadership; and to enhance the value of culture and heritage. Within each of those priorities, it sees a significant role for co-operatives, and seeks to support them with financial assistance, where appropriate, and through the provision of practical advice. We have strongly encouraged Scottish Enterprise to follow suit. Its new strategy gives welcome attention to inclusive enterprise policies—indeed, promoting social inclusion is one of its four major goals. Providing support for the development of new businesses in Scotland is a priority. Scottish Enterprise welcomes initiatives that help to produce businesses that are operated by a consortium or a co-operative group. It uses the expertise of Employee Ownership Scotland and other specialist advisers to assist clients who have expressed an interest in co-operatives and mutuals. Over the next year, Scottish Enterprise is committed to developing a clearer focus for creative and innovative business engagement in the inclusion process. We will be considering what more Scottish Enterprise can do to encourage enterprise, particularly in deprived areas, but I believe that we can and should go further. This important debate has yet to involve all those who help to shape our economy. It is a debate about the role of social enterprise, and it involves co-operatives and mutuals as a key element. The organisations that we find in the social economy have some important characteristics. Professor Peter Lloyd, whose research I shall share with members, has called them \"partnership driven for social ends\".He notes that they have a leaning towards solidarity and democracy, and recognise individuals and communities above giving returns on capital. They are usually locally based, and are usually found identifying solutions rather than identifying markets. Cathy Jamieson is absolutely right: they empower communities and provide a significant platform for self-help. Let me pepper in a few statistics. The third sector is growing faster than most other parts of the European economy. In Germany, it grew at 11 per cent against 3 per cent in the economy overall; in France, it grew by 16 per cent against 4 per cent; in Italy, it grew by a staggering 39 per cent as opposed to 7 per cent. That is vital in relation to our mission to create new jobs. Enterprise and communities are at the heart of our social justice strategy, and the Scottish co-operative and Mutual Forum can do much to strengthen the links between communities and the enterprise sector. We need to boost prosperity and allow more people to share in that prosperity. We can do that only by building on the foundations of a healthy economy that generates jobs. I can assure members that more will be done to promote the social economy, including co-operatives and mutuals. We recognise that Government has a part to play and we will offer clear leadership and appropriate support. We value the social economy and will seek to strengthen it. Our aspirations for a stakeholder society are not simply empty rhetoric. I can tell Linda Fabiani that the money that is going into our new housing partnership programme amounts to £333 million. Coupled with the amount available to Scottish Homes, that equates to an increase of more than £200 million. That extra money offers a substantial opportunity to develop housing associations and co-operatives. Let me say a few words about financial exclusion. The need for creative solutions is pressing—and so is time, so I shall rattle on quickly. We are examining financial exclusion and I am pleased that banks are beginning to recognise that they can deliver services to low- income households in disadvantaged communities. The role of credit unions in delivering appropriate and accessible financial services is crucially important. They give the Executive a sound platform for the next phase of our work on financial inclusion, and we are keen to promote their merits and change their image as a poor persons bank. I hope that this Parliament will consider setting up a credit union. Finally, I shall deal briefly with the Scottish community investment fund. It is not just the issue of personal financial services that we want to address. We want to ensure that community organisations established to address some of the issues of exclusion—food co-operatives, child care projects and housing co-operatives—have access to funds. We recognise that encouraging enterprise is vital. That is why we announced an additional £10 million from banks and from a range of public sector and private sector sources for the first ever Scotland-wide community investment fund. The Executive is serious about tackling poverty and exclusion. We welcome the energy and creativity of the Scottish Co-operative and Mutual Forum in promoting the principles of the movement as a vital component of the social economy. We have a historic opportunity to make the new Scotland a fairer society, in which wealth and opportunity are in the hands of the many, not the few—a key principle underpinning co-operatives and mutuals.", "EditedTextHTML": "I would like to add my congratulations to the many that Cathy Jamieson has already received for securing this debate. It has drawn attention to an important movement in Scotland, which, as we have heard, can make a key contribution to combating social exclusion.

As members will recall, last Wednesday we debated \"Social Justice …a Scotland where everyone matters\"—the first part of the Scottish Executive's framework for tackling poverty in Scotland. We said that, in the spring, our action plan would set out our detailed plans for meeting the targets and reaching the milestones that we identified in that document.

We have heard much in the past half-hour that the Executive welcomes, and many principles that we have absolutely no difficulty in supporting. I

can reassure members that we will consider those ideas in the context of the action plan that we will bring to Parliament.

I think that members will agree that the main driver of poverty is worklessness: being without a job for any length of time is the surest guarantee of economic exclusion. We are working closely with Henry McLeish and his enterprise team to promote more inclusive policies and practices.

Since its establishment, Highland and Islands Enterprise has had an explicitly social remit. It has three strategic objectives, one of which is strengthening communities. Its priorities for that are: to promote investment in community assets; to develop community strengths and leadership; and to enhance the value of culture and heritage. Within each of those priorities, it sees a significant role for co-operatives, and seeks to support them with financial assistance, where appropriate, and through the provision of practical advice.

We have strongly encouraged Scottish Enterprise to follow suit. Its new strategy gives welcome attention to inclusive enterprise policies—indeed, promoting social inclusion is one of its four major goals.

Providing support for the development of new businesses in Scotland is a priority. Scottish Enterprise welcomes initiatives that help to produce businesses that are operated by a consortium or a co-operative group. It uses the expertise of Employee Ownership Scotland and other specialist advisers to assist clients who have expressed an interest in co-operatives and mutuals.

Over the next year, Scottish Enterprise is committed to developing a clearer focus for creative and innovative business engagement in the inclusion process. We will be considering what more Scottish Enterprise can do to encourage enterprise, particularly in deprived areas, but I believe that we can and should go further. This important debate has yet to involve all those who help to shape our economy. It is a debate about the role of social enterprise, and it involves co-operatives and mutuals as a key element.

The organisations that we find in the social economy have some important characteristics. Professor Peter Lloyd, whose research I shall share with members, has called them

\"partnership driven for social ends\".

He notes that they have a leaning towards solidarity and democracy, and recognise individuals and communities above giving returns on capital. They are usually locally based, and are usually found identifying solutions rather than identifying markets. Cathy Jamieson is absolutely right: they empower communities and provide a significant platform for self-help.

Let me pepper in a few statistics. The third sector is growing faster than most other parts of the European economy. In Germany, it grew at 11 per cent against 3 per cent in the economy overall; in France, it grew by 16 per cent against 4 per cent; in Italy, it grew by a staggering 39 per cent as opposed to 7 per cent. That is vital in relation to our mission to create new jobs.

Enterprise and communities are at the heart of our social justice strategy, and the Scottish co-operative and Mutual Forum can do much to strengthen the links between communities and the enterprise sector. We need to boost prosperity and allow more people to share in that prosperity. We can do that only by building on the foundations of a healthy economy that generates jobs.

I can assure members that more will be done to promote the social economy, including co-operatives and mutuals. We recognise that Government has a part to play and we will offer clear leadership and appropriate support. We value the social economy and will seek to strengthen it. Our aspirations for a stakeholder society are not simply empty rhetoric.

I can tell Linda Fabiani that the money that is going into our new housing partnership programme amounts to £333 million. Coupled with the amount available to Scottish Homes, that equates to an increase of more than £200 million. That extra money offers a substantial opportunity to develop housing associations and co-operatives.

Let me say a few words about financial exclusion. The need for creative solutions is pressing—and so is time, so I shall rattle on quickly. We are examining financial exclusion and I am pleased that banks are beginning to recognise that they can deliver services to low- income households in disadvantaged communities.

The role of credit unions in delivering appropriate and accessible financial services is crucially important. They give the Executive a sound platform for the next phase of our work on financial inclusion, and we are keen to promote their merits and change their image as a poor persons bank. I hope that this Parliament will consider setting up a credit union.

Finally, I shall deal briefly with the Scottish community investment fund. It is not just the issue of personal financial services that we want to address. We want to ensure that community organisations established to address some of the issues of exclusion—food co-operatives, child care projects and housing co-operatives—have access to funds. We recognise that encouraging enterprise is vital. That is why we announced an

additional £10 million from banks and from a range of public sector and private sector sources for the first ever Scotland-wide community investment fund.

The Executive is serious about tackling poverty and exclusion. We welcome the energy and creativity of the Scottish Co-operative and Mutual Forum in promoting the principles of the movement as a vital component of the social economy. We have a historic opportunity to make the new Scotland a fairer society, in which wealth and opportunity are in the hands of the many, not the few—a key principle underpinning co-operatives and mutuals.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:29:30.3706249+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1773E197P503C712537", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27112, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 352.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27113, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 353.0, "QuestionHeading": "Housing", "QuestionHeadingID": 27121, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 419.0, "DisplayOrder": 419.0, "ID": 27121, "ParentID": 27113 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hyslop, Fiona", "ID": 1773, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona Hyslop", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona Hyslop: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 422.0, "ContributionID": 712537, "EditedText": "Will the minister confirm that the healthy homes initiative was one of the few things that the Liberal Democrats brought to the partnership agreement? Will he confirm what the Minister for Communities said in the written evidence that she gave the Social Inclusion, Housing and Voluntary Sector Committee? She said that the warm deal money was to tackle dampness, but he has said that it is available only for insulation. His minister is close to the Liberal Democrats, but will he confirm that the healthy homes initiative does not actually exist and that he has sold them a pig in a poke?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister confirm that the healthy homes initiative was one of the few things that the Liberal Democrats brought to the partnership agreement? Will he confirm what the Minister for Communities said in the written evidence that she gave the Social Inclusion, Housing and Voluntary Sector Committee? She said that the warm deal money was to tackle dampness, but he has said that it is available only for insulation. His minister is close to the Liberal Democrats, but will he confirm that the healthy homes initiative does not actually exist and that he has sold them a pig in a poke?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:01:13.4086808+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2133E222P520C712381", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Matheson, Michael", "ID": 2133, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Matheson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Matheson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 97.0, "ContributionID": 712381, "EditedText": "I do not dispute the views of Clive Fairweather, but I also accept the views of people who work with the unit—the Grampian Addiction Problem Service, which clearly has grave concerns about the closure, or the mothballing, of the unit. The Executive has unfortunately decided to mothball. That will inevitably lead to further problems and the vicious circle of crime and drugs. I return to the issue of providing a comprehensive justice system, and to the issue of supporting the needs of victims. The needs of victims are not given the priority that they deserve. In Scotland, victim support services deal with almost 40,000 referrals each year, the vast majority of which come from the police. The services, yet again, have found their modest budgets under increasing pressure. As a result, they have had to limit the service that they can provide in some areas of Scotland. Support to victims is not just about the level of service that is provided by victim support groups; it is about the way in which our criminal justice agencies deal with victims. Several months ago, along with other MSPs including Lyndsay McIntosh, I met a lady called Molley Godley, whose son Ian Godley had been killed back in February 1998. Although I do not want to go into specific details of the case, I am concerned about the way in which the family was supported by the criminal justice agencies. The family was unable to find out why the Crown Office had decided not to proceed with the case that had been referred to the procurator fiscal. The family is not only the victim of a son being killed, but the victim of a criminal justice system that has acted insensitively. At no time was the family informed of the possibility that the case would be dropped by the Crown Office, until a call came from the procurator fiscal to say that it had been dropped. What way is that to deal with a family that is dealing with the trauma of losing a son? I am sure that other members could refer to such individual cases across the country. I return to the issue of improving services for victims of crime. In England and Wales, the Home Office's victims charter has been in place for some time. Lord Cullen recommended such a measure in his report on the Stephen Lawrence inquiry. However, the Executive's action plan contains very little to meet victims' needs. A victims charter would help to set national standards that stated clearly the level or nature of service that criminal justice agencies should provide. A charter would help families such as the Godleys. At such a time, the Executive has an opportunity to improve services for victims of crime, and I urge it to consider the possibility of introducing a victims charter in Scotland. Our criminal justice system requires action on several fronts. Any further delay will inevitably lead to increased crime and an impending crisis, if not in the police service, in the prison system. The Executive has been warned not only by political parties but by those who work in the service, and I hope that it will listen to those views and act on them. I move amendment S1M-316.2, to leave out from \"expresses\" to end and insert: \"notes with concern the decreasing numbers of serving police officers; expresses deep concern at the prison closure programme, as a result of the Scottish Executive's re-allocation of £13 million of Scottish Prison Service funding, and calls upon the Scottish Executive to recognise that effective criminal justice is one in which adequate resources are provided for the police and the prison service as well as victims of crime, none of whom are well served under the present system.\"", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not dispute the views of Clive Fairweather, but I also accept the views of people who work with the unit—the Grampian Addiction Problem Service, which clearly has grave concerns about the closure, or the mothballing, of the unit. The Executive has unfortunately decided to mothball. That will inevitably lead to further problems and the vicious circle of crime and drugs.

I return to the issue of providing a comprehensive justice system, and to the issue of supporting the needs of victims. The needs of victims are not given the priority that they deserve. In Scotland, victim support services deal with almost 40,000 referrals each year, the vast majority of which come from the police. The services, yet again, have found their modest budgets under increasing pressure. As a result, they have had to limit the service that they can provide in some areas of Scotland.

Support to victims is not just about the level of service that is provided by victim support groups; it is about the way in which our criminal justice agencies deal with victims. Several months ago, along with other MSPs including Lyndsay McIntosh, I met a lady called Molley Godley, whose son Ian Godley had been killed back in February 1998. Although I do not want to go into specific details of the case, I am concerned about the way in which the family was supported by the criminal justice agencies. The family was unable to find out why the Crown Office had decided not to proceed with the case that had been referred to the procurator fiscal. The family is not only the victim of a son being killed, but the victim of a criminal justice system that has acted insensitively. At no time was the family informed of the possibility that the case would be dropped by the Crown Office, until a call came from the procurator fiscal to say that it had been dropped. What way is that to deal with a family that is dealing with the trauma of losing a son? I am sure that other members could refer to such individual cases across the country.

I return to the issue of improving services for victims of crime. In England and Wales, the Home Office's victims charter has been in place for some time. Lord Cullen recommended such a measure in his report on the Stephen Lawrence inquiry. However, the Executive's action plan contains very little to meet victims' needs. A victims charter would help to set national standards that stated clearly the level or nature of service that criminal justice agencies should provide. A charter would help families such as the Godleys. At such a time, the Executive has an opportunity to improve services for victims of crime, and I urge it to consider the possibility of introducing a victims charter in Scotland.

Our criminal justice system requires action on several fronts. Any further delay will inevitably lead to increased crime and an impending crisis, if not in the police service, in the prison system. The Executive has been warned not only by political parties but by those who work in the service, and I hope that it will listen to those views and act on them.

I move amendment S1M-316.2, to leave out from \"expresses\" to end and insert:

\"notes with concern the decreasing numbers of serving police officers; expresses deep concern at the prison closure programme, as a result of the Scottish Executive's re-allocation of £13 million of Scottish Prison Service funding, and calls upon the Scottish Executive to recognise that effective criminal justice is one in which adequate resources are provided for the police and the prison service as well as victims of crime, none of whom are well served under the present system.\"

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:31.1569345+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C712337", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 7.0, "ContributionID": 712337, "EditedText": "The Conservative party stands in a position of strength. We have a track record in law and order issues of which we can be proud. Laughter. Those who mock—particularly those Liberal Democrats who have shown treachery in the past, by turning their back on their principles and objectives and abandoning the ideals in which they believed, to join the Liberals—should feel ashamed when they mock our track record on law and order. There was a significant improvement in the tackling of crime during the Tory Administration of the past 18 years, in spite of the curse of an international explosion in drug misuse. Under the Tory Government, crime figures fell by the largest number since records began, and over the longest period. That could be explained, perhaps, by the fact that the Tories had 18 years of uninterrupted government, with no opportunity for the Opposition—now the Government—to step in with its wishy-washy policies and ruin the changes that were made during those 18 years. Between 1979 and 1997, police spending doubled, in real terms. Scottish police numbers rose by 2,000. We encouraged the use and development of new technology, such as closed circuit television, which we regarded as a powerful weapon in the battle against crime, for the protection of the public. We facilitated the progression of the process of DNA testing and its use and production in courts as a means of attaining true and proper verdicts. We did much to improve court procedures, so that the time spent in court could be reduced and the time that was wasted by the police in court could be cut down. Frequently, in debates such as this, the Opposition can be charged with being critical for the sake of it. It can be charged with offering pious hopes based on a lack of responsibility and unjustifiable claims. I suggest that that is one way in which the electorate was conned by the present Administration in 1997. Our 1999 manifesto was clear in intent, and our track record shows that we could have delivered on it. What is the current situation, and how does it contrast with the Executive's manifesto dreams? The Labour manifesto for the Scottish Parliament, which was published in 1999, tells us that \"Scottish New Labour believes that individuals can prosper in strong and secure communities.\" In their manifesto, the Liberal Democrats promised to \"keep the police service up to strength.\"What has happened since then? Police numbers are now down by almost 400 on the number that was inherited from the Tories. Worse still, in the budget statement prepared and issued by Jack McConnell, we see at best a hold at current levels of funding for the police. Although there is room for inflationary increase in local authority provision, the central Government contribution is set to fall. Let us remember that the sum of cash that is provided for local authorities is not ring-fenced, and evidence suggests that local authorities are not enthusiastic about providing funding for the police. As I said, police numbers are down by almost400. At current budget levels, the Scottish Police Superintendents Association reports a substantial shortfall on this year's budget. With the budgets effectively at a standstill, pressures will increase. The Scottish Police Federation forecasts a shortfall in police numbers by the end of next year of between 500 and 1,000 officers. How does that contrast with the manifesto pledges of those who participate in the Scottish Executive? Douglas Keil, general secretary of the Scottish Police Federation, said: \"There is a direct correlation between the number of officers on the street and crime figures. In the light of the bleak financial future, I can only see a bleak future for levels of crime.\" Police officers are leaving the force. That puts another burden on the revenue available to those who fund the police because it adds the burden of pensions, which are provided directly from revenue. There is no money for recruitment. We recognise that 92 per cent of the police budget is currently spent on manpower. That leaves little room for manoeuvre with respect to efficiency savings, provision of equipment or maintenance of police buildings.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Conservative party stands in a position of strength. We have a track record in law and order issues of which we can be proud. [Laughter.] Those who mock—particularly those Liberal Democrats who have shown treachery in the past, by turning their back on their principles and objectives and abandoning the ideals in which they believed, to join the Liberals—should feel ashamed when they mock our track record on law and order.

There was a significant improvement in the tackling of crime during the Tory Administration of the past 18 years, in spite of the curse of an international explosion in drug misuse. Under the Tory Government, crime figures fell by the largest number since records began, and over the longest period. That could be explained, perhaps, by the fact that the Tories had 18 years of uninterrupted government, with no opportunity for the Opposition—now the Government—to step in with its wishy-washy policies and ruin the changes that were made during those 18 years.

Between 1979 and 1997, police spending doubled, in real terms. Scottish police numbers rose by 2,000. We encouraged the use and development of new technology, such as closed circuit television, which we regarded as a powerful weapon in the battle against crime, for the protection of the public. We facilitated the progression of the process of DNA testing and its use and production in courts as a means of attaining true and proper verdicts. We did much to improve court procedures, so that the time spent in court could be reduced and the time that was wasted by the police in court could be cut down.

Frequently, in debates such as this, the Opposition can be charged with being critical for the sake of it. It can be charged with offering pious hopes based on a lack of responsibility and unjustifiable claims. I suggest that that is one way in which the electorate was conned by the present Administration in 1997.

Our 1999 manifesto was clear in intent, and our track record shows that we could have delivered on it. What is the current situation, and how does it contrast with the Executive's manifesto dreams? The Labour manifesto for the Scottish Parliament, which was published in 1999, tells us that

\"Scottish New Labour believes that individuals can prosper in strong and secure communities.\"

In their manifesto, the Liberal Democrats promised to

\"keep the police service up to strength.\"

What has happened since then? Police numbers are now down by almost 400 on the number that was inherited from the Tories.

Worse still, in the budget statement prepared and issued by Jack McConnell, we see at best a hold at current levels of funding for the police. Although there is room for inflationary increase in local authority provision, the central Government contribution is set to fall. Let us remember that the sum of cash that is provided for local authorities is not ring-fenced, and evidence suggests that local authorities are not enthusiastic about providing funding for the police.

As I said, police numbers are down by almost

400. At current budget levels, the Scottish Police Superintendents Association reports a substantial shortfall on this year's budget. With the budgets effectively at a standstill, pressures will increase. The Scottish Police Federation forecasts a shortfall in police numbers by the end of next year of between 500 and 1,000 officers. How does that contrast with the manifesto pledges of those who participate in the Scottish Executive? Douglas Keil, general secretary of the Scottish Police Federation, said:

\"There is a direct correlation between the number of officers on the street and crime figures. In the light of the bleak financial future, I can only see a bleak future for levels of crime.\"

Police officers are leaving the force. That puts another burden on the revenue available to those who fund the police because it adds the burden of pensions, which are provided directly from revenue. There is no money for recruitment. We recognise that 92 per cent of the police budget is currently spent on manpower. That leaves little room for manoeuvre with respect to efficiency savings, provision of equipment or maintenance of police buildings.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C712342", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice (Mr Jim Wallace): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 17.0, "ContributionID": 712342, "EditedText": "Mr Gallie is quoting HM chief inspector of prisons for Scotland's report for 1998-99. Has he read the part where the chief inspector says that an end to overpopulation will mean that much needed additional refurbishment can be effected throughout the prison estate and that consideration might even be given to closing one or two of the more isolated establishments?", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Gallie is quoting HM chief inspector of prisons for Scotland's report for 1998-99. Has he read the part where the chief inspector says that an end to overpopulation will mean that much needed additional refurbishment can be effected throughout the prison estate and that consideration might even be given to closing one or two of the more isolated establishments?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C712347", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 27.0, "ContributionID": 712347, "EditedText": "Of course we welcome the drugs enforcement agency—I thought I had made that clear. The minister got his sums totally wrong in the earlier debate. If the 200 police officers are in addition to the established recommendations for police numbers in Scotland, we welcome them. We will put the minister on trust and watch the figures. If he can bring police numbers back up to what they should be and add the 200 who are due to go into the drugs enforcement agency on top of that, he will be given credit by Conservative members. Let us not have promises; let us have action. When the minister delivers, he will receive our compliments. With regard to victims of crime, I understand that today we will have a statement on the freedom of information bill. If the Government is dead keen to pass out more information, why do we need to legislate for it? It is in the Government's power to provide information as and when it should. Irrespective, we will wait to hear what is said on the matter. Mr Wallace should be assured that we will welcome the bill if it improves the situation for victims of crime and provides for them to receive explanations about the downgrading of charges. For example, victims are told that a charge will be brought, but by the time they get to court, without having been told, they find that that charge has been decreased to a much lesser offence. That happens in the High Court and solemn and summary courts. It is a cause of concern for victims. If the minister's statement later today announces an improvement in the information that is provided to victims of crime and their families, it will be welcome. As I have suggested in the past, there has been a policy of downgrading charges to take pressure off the courts, but what is the current situation? There is a shambles surrounding temporary sheriffs and in the district courts with respect to the stepping down of councillor justices of the peace. I say to the minister, there are no doubts that the fault lies clearly with the Labour Government. It signed up to the European convention on human rights and incorporated it into law. The Government must take responsibility for the resulting shambles. The present difficulties could be the tip of the iceberg. We will see where we go from there.", "EditedTextHTML": "Of course we welcome the drugs enforcement agency—I thought I had made that clear. The minister got his sums totally wrong in the earlier debate. If the 200 police officers are in addition to the established recommendations for police numbers in Scotland, we welcome them. We will put the minister on trust and watch the figures. If he can bring police numbers back up to what they should be and add the 200 who are due to go into the drugs enforcement agency on top of that, he will be given credit by Conservative members. Let us not have promises; let us have action. When the minister delivers, he will receive our compliments.

With regard to victims of crime, I understand that today we will have a statement on the freedom of information bill. If the Government is dead keen to pass out more information, why do we need to legislate for it? It is in the Government's power to provide information as and when it should. Irrespective, we will wait to hear what is said on the matter.

Mr Wallace should be assured that we will welcome the bill if it improves the situation for victims of crime and provides for them to receive explanations about the downgrading of charges. For example, victims are told that a charge will be brought, but by the time they get to court, without having been told, they find that that charge has been decreased to a much lesser offence. That happens in the High Court and solemn and summary courts. It is a cause of concern for victims. If the minister's statement later today announces an improvement in the information that is provided to victims of crime and their families, it will be welcome.

As I have suggested in the past, there has been a policy of downgrading charges to take pressure off the courts, but what is the current situation? There is a shambles surrounding temporary sheriffs and in the district courts with respect to the stepping down of councillor justices of the peace. I say to the minister, there are no doubts that the fault lies clearly with the Labour Government. It signed up to the European convention on human rights and incorporated it into law. The Government must take responsibility for the resulting shambles. The present difficulties could be the tip of the iceberg. We will see where we go from there.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C712349", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 31.0, "ContributionID": 712349, "EditedText": "I will allow the minister to intervene on that point in a few minutes' time. I will move on and, being aware of the time, I will skip a few things. I say to Angus MacKay that with respect to drugs, which was a major crime and punishment issue in the run-up to the election, I welcome his visit to Ireland to establish what can be done to enhance the Tories' policy of confiscating drug dealers' assets. If in Ireland he found a means of improving the situation and he implements it here, it will be welcomed by all of us in this chamber. There are several points that I wish to be addressed. I would like legislation to be introduced that allows for the seizure or freezing of assets of alleged drug dealers at the time of their arrest. I would like the automatic refusal of bail for anyone accused of drug dealing. Ultimately, if someone is found guilty of peddling in drugs—peddling in death—I would like to see, just as is the case with the Inland Revenue, that the individual has to prove their right to have their assets, rather than the prosecution having to prove that those assets were gained from dealing in drugs. On that point, I ask the minister to assure me that the fact that the Irish Government has not incorporated the ECHR into its law will not affect his intention of dealing with drug dealers in Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will allow the minister to intervene on that point in a few minutes' time. I will move on and, being aware of the time, I will skip a few things.

I say to Angus MacKay that with respect to drugs, which was a major crime and punishment issue in the run-up to the election, I welcome his visit to Ireland to establish what can be done to enhance the Tories' policy of confiscating drug dealers' assets. If in Ireland he found a means of improving the situation and he implements it here, it will be welcomed by all of us in this chamber.

There are several points that I wish to be addressed. I would like legislation to be introduced that allows for the seizure or freezing of assets of alleged drug dealers at the time of their arrest. I would like the automatic refusal of bail for anyone accused of drug dealing. Ultimately, if someone is found guilty of peddling in drugs—peddling in death—I would like to see, just as is the case with the Inland Revenue, that the individual has to prove their right to have their assets, rather than the prosecution having to prove that those assets were gained from dealing in drugs. On that point, I ask the minister to assure me that the fact that the Irish Government has not incorporated the ECHR into its law will not affect his intention of dealing with drug dealers in Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C712351", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 35.0, "ContributionID": 712351, "EditedText": "As always, the Conservative Government in office supported the aims of the ECHR. Where it was wise and the Labour Administration was not, is that the Conservative Government did not incorporate it into our law. It allowed our judges to make their decisions and take the ECHR into account. That is the right way and that is also the approach that the Irish, from whom the minister sought to gain knowledge, have taken. I have spoken for 20 minutes, so I will come to a close. I was intent on taking the minister to task about his comments on young offenders. That is an area of serious aggravation for many members of the public and his words, which suggested that the Liberal-Labour Administration will go soft on young offenders, cause some concern. Finally, I return to Labour's woeful attempt to comply with its pledge to be tough on crime. The most recent crime figures from the Statistical Bulletin of March 1999—Interruption.—not 1985, as Mr Rumbles is indicating. Those figures show that offensive weapons crimes are up 13 per cent; assault with intent to rape is up 12 per cent; nonsexual violent crime is up 10 per cent; serious assault is up 9 per cent; robbery is up 9 per cent; sexual assault is up 9 per cent; and drug-related crime is up 7 per cent. If ever there was an indictment of an Administration, it is those figures. The Administration should plead guilty to the charges and accept our motion. I move,That the Parliament expresses concern over the substantial drop in the number of serving police officers over the last two years, the reversal of the falling crime rates inherited, the rising number of drugs related deaths, the shortsighted and ill considered prison closure programme and staff redundancies instigated by the Executive's £13 million raid of Scottish Prison Service funds, the Executive's lack of emphasis on and support for the victims of crime and the shambles in our courts resulting from Her Majesty's Government's decision to incorporate the European Convention of Human Rights into Scots Law, and calls upon the Scottish Executive to live up to its Partnership Agreement promise to be \"tough on crime and the criminals who blight our communities\".", "EditedTextHTML": "As always, the Conservative Government in office supported the aims of the ECHR. Where it was wise and the Labour Administration was not, is that the Conservative Government did not incorporate it into our law. It allowed our judges to make their decisions and take the ECHR into account. That is the right way and that is also the approach that the Irish, from whom the minister sought to gain knowledge, have taken.

I have spoken for 20 minutes, so I will come to a close. I was intent on taking the minister to task about his comments on young offenders. That is an area of serious aggravation for many members of the public and his words, which suggested that the Liberal-Labour Administration will go soft on young offenders, cause some concern.

Finally, I return to Labour's woeful attempt to comply with its pledge to be tough on crime. The most recent crime figures from the Statistical Bulletin of March 1999—[Interruption.]—not 1985, as Mr Rumbles is indicating. Those figures show that offensive weapons crimes are up 13 per cent;

assault with intent to rape is up 12 per cent; nonsexual violent crime is up 10 per cent; serious assault is up 9 per cent; robbery is up 9 per cent; sexual assault is up 9 per cent; and drug-related crime is up 7 per cent. If ever there was an indictment of an Administration, it is those figures. The Administration should plead guilty to the charges and accept our motion.

I move,

That the Parliament expresses concern over the substantial drop in the number of serving police officers over the last two years, the reversal of the falling crime rates inherited, the rising number of drugs related deaths, the shortsighted and ill considered prison closure programme and staff redundancies instigated by the Executive's £13 million raid of Scottish Prison Service funds, the Executive's lack of emphasis on and support for the victims of crime and the shambles in our courts resulting from Her Majesty's Government's decision to incorporate the European Convention of Human Rights into Scots Law, and calls upon the Scottish Executive to live up to its Partnership Agreement promise to be \"tough on crime and the criminals who blight our communities\".

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C712356", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 46.0, "ContributionID": 712356, "EditedText": "All bar Grampian are recruiting.In 1999-2000, police forces received grant-aided expenditure totalling £719.4 million—a 4 per cent increase on the previous year. Next year, forces will receive £741.9 million—an increase of 3.8 per cent. Those increases contrast with the figures that Mr Rumbles gave for the years of Tory government—in four of those years, spending fell. They should enable forces to maintain numbers at a relatively high level compared with earlier this decade.", "EditedTextHTML": "All bar Grampian are recruiting.

In 1999-2000, police forces received grant-aided expenditure totalling £719.4 million—a 4 per cent increase on the previous year. Next year, forces will receive £741.9 million—an increase of 3.8 per cent. Those increases contrast with the figures that Mr Rumbles gave for the years of Tory government—in four of those years, spending fell. They should enable forces to maintain numbers at a relatively high level compared with earlier this decade.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C712359", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 52.0, "ContributionID": 712359, "EditedText": "Will the minister explain how the prison population is predicted to fall at a time when crime is rising? Common sense would suggest that, if serious crime is increasing, as Mr Gallie said and official statistics show, the prison population should also rise, unless the Executive is operating a deliberate policy to ensure that the punishment does not fit the crime.", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister explain how the prison population is predicted to fall at a time when crime is rising? Common sense would suggest that, if serious crime is increasing, as Mr Gallie said and official statistics show, the prison population should also rise, unless the Executive is operating a deliberate policy to ensure that the punishment does not fit the crime.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C712371", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 76.0, "ContributionID": 712371, "EditedText": "You must wind up now.", "EditedTextHTML": "You must wind up now.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C712374", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 83.0, "ContributionID": 712374, "EditedText": "We are quite clear that we do not welcome incorporation. It was badly thought out and was the wrong thing to do. The terrible situation that we face in our courts shows that we are right.", "EditedTextHTML": "We are quite clear that we do not welcome incorporation. It was badly thought out and was the wrong thing to do. The terrible situation that we face in our courts shows that we are right.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C712378", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Angus MacKay: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 91.0, "ContributionID": 712378, "EditedText": "As Mr Matheson has touched on the views of Mr Clive Fairweather, perhaps I can ask him to comment on Mr Fairweather's specific statement on the announcement, that \"as circumstances change—and in this case where the population appears to have steadied, at much the same time as 500 more spaces have been created by the new prison at Kilmarnock, (plus a new block in Saughton)—then perhaps it is time to close some prisons.\" He went on to say:\"Consideration could also be given to closing one or two isolated or less cost effective establishments. It would appear therefore, that the closures and the consequent reorganisations announced today by the SPS should not affect its primary role.\" Those are Mr Fairweather's words, not mine.", "EditedTextHTML": "As Mr Matheson has touched on the views of Mr Clive Fairweather, perhaps I can ask him to comment on Mr Fairweather's specific statement on the announcement, that

\"as circumstances change—and in this case where the population appears to have steadied, at much the same time as 500 more spaces have been created by the new prison at Kilmarnock, (plus a new block in Saughton)—then perhaps it is time to close some prisons.\"

He went on to say:

\"Consideration could also be given to closing one or two isolated or less cost effective establishments. It would appear therefore, that the closures and the consequent reorganisations announced today by the SPS should not affect its primary role.\"

Those are Mr Fairweather's words, not mine.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2122E6P19C712385", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay", "ID": 2122, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lyndsay McIntosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs McIntosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 106.0, "ContributionID": 712385, "EditedText": "Sorry, but I want to get through this little bit. It is reassuring that there are a number of bodies that aim to deal with the scourge of drugs. Even before the much-advertised drugs enforcement agency, we have the ministerial committee on drug misuse, the Scottish Advisory Committee on Drug Misuse, the public health policy unit, the national health service information and statistics divisions, drug action teams, drug development officers and local drugs forums. However, what we really need are joined-up, co-ordinated responses to the drugs menace.", "EditedTextHTML": "Sorry, but I want to get through this little bit.

It is reassuring that there are a number of bodies that aim to deal with the scourge of drugs. Even before the much-advertised drugs enforcement agency, we have the ministerial committee on drug misuse, the Scottish Advisory Committee on Drug Misuse, the public health policy unit, the national health service information and statistics divisions, drug action teams, drug development officers and local drugs forums. However, what we really need are joined-up, co-ordinated responses to the drugs menace.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C712388", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 112.0, "ContributionID": 712388, "EditedText": "You have one sentence, Mrs McIntosh.", "EditedTextHTML": "You have one sentence, Mrs McIntosh.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2122E6P19C712389", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay", "ID": 2122, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lyndsay McIntosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs McIntosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 114.0, "ContributionID": 712389, "EditedText": "I will never fit it all into just one sentence.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will never fit it all into just one sentence.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C712390", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 116.0, "ContributionID": 712390, "EditedText": "I am afraid that you will have to come to a close then.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am afraid that you will have to come to a close then.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C712393", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Monteith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 123.0, "ContributionID": 712393, "EditedText": "Will Pauline McNeill give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Pauline McNeill give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C712395", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Monteith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 127.0, "ContributionID": 712395, "EditedText": "It is a really nice point—she would like it.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is a really nice point—she would like it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C712400", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Jim Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 138.0, "ContributionID": 712400, "EditedText": "Earlier in the debate, Mr Gibson will have heard that, in the 18 years of Conservative government, crime rose in Scotland. He probably criticised the Conservatives for that at the time. He has also heard that—and no one is disputing the fact—at the same time, police numbers rose substantially. How does he square that with his view on the correlation between police numbers and crime?", "EditedTextHTML": "Earlier in the debate, Mr Gibson will have heard that, in the 18 years of Conservative government, crime rose in Scotland. He probably criticised the Conservatives for that at the time. He has also heard that—and no one is disputing the fact—at the same time, police numbers rose substantially. How does he square that with his view on the correlation between police numbers and crime?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C712406", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 150.0, "ContributionID": 712406, "EditedText": "Please wind up.", "EditedTextHTML": "Please wind up.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C712408", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 154.0, "ContributionID": 712408, "EditedText": "Come to a close, please.", "EditedTextHTML": "Come to a close, please.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C712410", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 158.0, "ContributionID": 712410, "EditedText": "Quickly, please.", "EditedTextHTML": "Quickly, please.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C712412", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 162.0, "ContributionID": 712412, "EditedText": "Mr Gibson, close now, please.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Gibson, close now, please.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1973E119P326C712414", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gorrie, Donald", "ID": 1973, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Donald Gorrie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Donald Gorrie (Central Scotland) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 167.0, "ContributionID": 712414, "EditedText": "I am happy to support Jim Wallace's amendment, the latter part of which makes important points. If I may say so, it is an improvement on some of the rather vacuous motions that the Executive has asked us to support. I hope that the common sense demonstrated in the amendment will be brought to bear on relationships between the Executive and the Parliament, especially if there is any truth in the main story in The Herald today. I wish to make one or two suggestions— constructive, I hope—on the welcome path down which Mr Wallace is going. On improving the justice system, many of us have argued for years that we should be able to speed up the court system. Courts in Scotland are run for the benefit of lawyers; they should be run for the benefit of the community and to suit the community. For example, what about evening courts or weekend courts? If they interfere with a few golf games, that is tough. We could also have more informal courts. I know that such measures—family courts, housing or neighbour dispute resolution courts and so on— are being considered. We should also consider imposing weekend jail sentences, so that the person continues to do his or her work during the week and is in jail after finishing work on Friday until starting work on Monday. That would often be more of a punishment than spending weeks in jail. Community service is an excellent alternative to jail, but should be done as visibly as possible— such as, for example, landscape improvements in the middle of a town, which are seen by a lot of people. That is a better type of community service. I welcome Jim Wallace's announcement of the four schemes to provide better facilities for young people. We should extend that approach to include, for example, a combined attack on truancy. For many people, truancy is the beginning of a career that leads to jail. There should be a better combined effort, involving the police—not in a heavy-blue-hatted-people-knocking-on-the-door way, but with community police, schools and social workers working together to provide classes in nearby youth centres and so on. That would achieve a great deal. In general, we need a pooled budget to help young people. We need to bring together budgets that will support young people's activities in different ways. We must also empower young people. There is a huge difference between a youth centre that is run by people like me telling young people what to do and one that is run by young people. Obviously, older people could be involved—such as staff who would be paid by the young people—but young people should manage the centres. For example, Terminal One in Blantyre is a good youth centre that is run in that way. We were told about another—the Joss Street centre at Invergordon—while on a visit to Inverness. Yet another—6 VT, the Edinburgh city youth café—is just round the corner from here. All of those have youth involvement.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am happy to support Jim Wallace's amendment, the latter part of which makes important points. If I may say so, it is an improvement on some of the rather vacuous motions that the Executive has asked us to support. I hope that the common sense demonstrated in the amendment will be brought to bear on relationships between the Executive and the Parliament, especially if there is any truth in the main story in The Herald today.

I wish to make one or two suggestions— constructive, I hope—on the welcome path down which Mr Wallace is going.

On improving the justice system, many of us have argued for years that we should be able to speed up the court system. Courts in Scotland are run for the benefit of lawyers; they should be run for the benefit of the community and to suit the community. For example, what about evening courts or weekend courts? If they interfere with a few golf games, that is tough.

We could also have more informal courts. I know that such measures—family courts, housing or neighbour dispute resolution courts and so on— are being considered. We should also consider imposing weekend jail sentences, so that the person continues to do his or her work during the week and is in jail after finishing work on Friday until starting work on Monday. That would often be more of a punishment than spending weeks in jail.

Community service is an excellent alternative to jail, but should be done as visibly as possible— such as, for example, landscape improvements in the middle of a town, which are seen by a lot of people. That is a better type of community service.

I welcome Jim Wallace's announcement of the four schemes to provide better facilities for young people. We should extend that approach to include, for example, a combined attack on truancy. For many people, truancy is the beginning of a career that leads to jail. There should be a better combined effort, involving the police—not in a heavy-blue-hatted-people-knocking-on-the-door way, but with community police, schools and social workers working together to provide classes in nearby youth centres and so on. That would achieve a great deal.

In general, we need a pooled budget to help young people. We need to bring together budgets that will support young people's activities in different ways. We must also empower young people. There is a huge difference between a youth centre that is run by people like me telling young people what to do and one that is run by young people. Obviously, older people could be involved—such as staff who would be paid by the young people—but young people should manage the centres. For example, Terminal One in Blantyre is a good youth centre that is run in that way. We were told about another—the Joss Street centre at Invergordon—while on a visit to Inverness. Yet another—6 VT, the Edinburgh city youth café—is just round the corner from here. All of those have youth involvement.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1805E13P109C712418", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Whitefield, Karen", "ID": 1805, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Airdrie and Shotts" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Karen Whitefield", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Karen Whitefield (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 177.0, "ContributionID": 712418, "EditedText": "I welcome the opportunity to debate law and order—it is an important issue for my constituents, and I believe that the partnership agreement shows that it is an important issue for the Executive. I thank the Tories for initiating today's debate, but my thanks to them end at that. The Conservative manifesto at the previous election claimed—among other things—that falling levels of crime, tough sentencing and waging war against the evils of drugs were features of the previous Conservative Government. The facts tell a different story. The period of that Government was characterised by a 115 per cent increase in non-sexual crimes of violence, a 59 per cent increase in fire-raising and vandalism and a 506 per cent increase in other crimes—listed principally as drug offences. Those are not my figures; they are from the Scottish Parliament information centre. In the past, Phil Gallie has had the audacity to suggest that the Labour party is stealing Conservative policies. Why would the Labour party want anything to do with policies that have so obviously and tragically failed Scottish communities? Is not it the truth that the Tories are now enviously eyeing the policies of the Executive and wishing that during their 18 years of failure they had thought of them? The only part of Mr Gallie's motion that is worth supporting is its call to the Scottish Executive to be tough on crime and on the criminals who blight our communities. I agree—Tories such as Jeffrey Archer, Neil Hamilton and Jonathan Aitken have been a blight on our communities for too long. The Deputy Minister for Justice, Angus MacKay, said in a recent debate in this chamber that we had to support communities by responding to local concerns. He also said that we had to respond by implementing integration and effective co-ordination of community safety strategies and action plans that would properly prevent crime. I agree with that, so I welcome Wendy Alexander's recent announcement that £48,000 will be allocated to set up people's juries in Glasgow to examine the problems of drugs and crime. That will give the fight against drugs and crime the priority that it deserves. Only people who understand the daily reality and consequences of drugs can find the solutions.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the opportunity to debate law and order—it is an important issue for my constituents, and I believe that the partnership agreement shows that it is an important issue for the Executive.

I thank the Tories for initiating today's debate, but my thanks to them end at that. The Conservative manifesto at the previous election claimed—among other things—that falling levels of crime, tough sentencing and waging war against the evils of drugs were features of the previous Conservative Government. The facts tell a different story. The period of that Government was characterised by a 115 per cent increase in non-sexual crimes of violence, a 59 per cent increase in fire-raising and vandalism and a 506 per cent increase in other crimes—listed principally as drug offences. Those are not my figures; they are from the Scottish Parliament information centre.

In the past, Phil Gallie has had the audacity to suggest that the Labour party is stealing Conservative policies. Why would the Labour party want anything to do with policies that have so obviously and tragically failed Scottish communities? Is not it the truth that the Tories are now enviously eyeing the policies of the Executive and wishing that during their 18 years of failure they had thought of them? The only part of Mr Gallie's motion that is worth supporting is its call to the Scottish Executive to be tough on crime and on the criminals who blight our communities. I agree—Tories such as Jeffrey Archer, Neil Hamilton and Jonathan Aitken have been a blight on our communities for too long.

The Deputy Minister for Justice, Angus MacKay, said in a recent debate in this chamber that we had to support communities by responding to local concerns. He also said that we had to respond by implementing integration and effective co-ordination of community safety strategies and action plans that would properly prevent crime.

I agree with that, so I welcome Wendy Alexander's recent announcement that £48,000 will be allocated to set up people's juries in Glasgow to examine the problems of drugs and crime. That will give the fight against drugs and crime the priority that it deserves. Only people who understand the daily reality and consequences of drugs can find the solutions.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1821E295P538C712422", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Mrs Margaret", "ID": 1821, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Moray" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Margaret Ewing (Moray) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 186.0, "ContributionID": 712422, "EditedText": "I have great respect for Lord James Douglas-Hamilton and his knowledge of the court system. In the light of what he has said, and the rulings that may emerge later today, does he think that there is a strong case for this Parliament to meet again to try to resolve these difficulties as soon as possible?", "EditedTextHTML": "I have great respect for Lord James Douglas-Hamilton and his knowledge of the court system. In the light of what he has said, and the rulings that may emerge later today, does he think that there is a strong case for this Parliament to meet again to try to resolve these difficulties as soon as possible?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1908E166P251C712427", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Kerr, Andy", "ID": 1908, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Kilbride" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andy Kerr", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Andy Kerr (East Kilbride) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 198.0, "ContributionID": 712427, "EditedText": "It is narrow-minded to suggest that we should just put more people into jail. There are alternatives to jail, including new measures—", "EditedTextHTML": "It is narrow-minded to suggest that we should just put more people into jail. There are alternatives to jail,

including new measures—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1990E181P340C712431", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robson, Euan", "ID": 1990, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Roxburgh and Berwickshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Euan Robson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Euan Robson (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 207.0, "ContributionID": 712431, "EditedText": "If there was no anticipation of events, how come, all of a sudden, there are 10 new permanent floating sheriffs?", "EditedTextHTML": "If there was no anticipation of events, how come, all of a sudden, there are 10 new permanent floating sheriffs?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C712435", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 217.0, "ContributionID": 712435, "EditedText": "Was it not the Conservative party that pioneered the urban regeneration programmes in Scotland in Wester Hailes, Ferguslie Park, Castlemilk and Whitfield in Dundee, pouring millions of pounds into the redevelopment of those communities, both economically and socially? That record, of which we are proud, hardly squares with what Mr Paterson is saying.", "EditedTextHTML": "Was it not the Conservative party that pioneered the urban regeneration programmes in Scotland in Wester Hailes,

Ferguslie Park, Castlemilk and Whitfield in Dundee, pouring millions of pounds into the redevelopment of those communities, both economically and socially? That record, of which we are proud, hardly squares with what Mr Paterson is saying.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2010E221P512C712436", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Paterson, Gil", "ID": 2010, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Gil Paterson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Paterson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 219.0, "ContributionID": 712436, "EditedText": "I take that point on board but I must point out that the biggest crime that the Conservatives never solved was the ravages of Thatcher, and it is her period in office that I am talking about. Only a few days ago, the community of Longriggend visited Parliament to highlight its plight. In Longriggend, the basic amenities of street lighting, roads and drainage are provided by the Prison Service. When the prison closes, those amenities will no longer be provided. I cannot think of a better example of Government neglect, especially when the Prison Service has a surplus of £13 million. This Parliament has a duty to provide not just policing but community resources. It must give our communities the opportunity to thrive and prosper.", "EditedTextHTML": "I take that point on board but I must point out that the biggest crime that the Conservatives never solved was the ravages of Thatcher, and it is her period in office that I am talking about.

Only a few days ago, the community of Longriggend visited Parliament to highlight its plight. In Longriggend, the basic amenities of street lighting, roads and drainage are provided by the Prison Service. When the prison closes, those amenities will no longer be provided. I cannot think of a better example of Government neglect, especially when the Prison Service has a surplus of £13 million.

This Parliament has a duty to provide not just policing but community resources. It must give our communities the opportunity to thrive and prosper.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6076102+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1768E72P274C712439", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Murray, Elaine", "ID": 1768, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumfries" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Murray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Murray: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 226.0, "ContributionID": 712439, "EditedText": "I do not recall that she talked about blame. She said that there was no such thing as society and her policies made it clear that that belief was integral to the Conservatives' political philosophy. The Tories bear a great responsibility for the situation in which our communities find themselves and I am certain that the Scottish people will take a long time to forget that. The Tories have not changed—that was made clear by their recent conference. They remain as Thatcherite as ever. Since taking office, the Labour Government has taken action to rectify the trends of the previous 18 years. Last week, in a question to the Executive, I raised the issue of the new legislation on anti-social neighbours. It took a Labour Government— after all those years of Tory Governments—to introduce legislation to protect people from nuisance neighbours. I only wish that more councils would use the powers that they have been given.", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not recall that she talked about blame. She said that there was no such thing as society and her policies made it clear that that belief was integral to the Conservatives' political philosophy.

The Tories bear a great responsibility for the situation in which our communities find themselves and I am certain that the Scottish people will take a long time to forget that. The Tories have not changed—that was made clear by their recent conference. They remain as Thatcherite as ever.

Since taking office, the Labour Government has taken action to rectify the trends of the previous 18 years. Last week, in a question to the Executive, I raised the issue of the new legislation on anti-social neighbours. It took a Labour Government— after all those years of Tory Governments—to introduce legislation to protect people from nuisance neighbours. I only wish that more councils would use the powers that they have been given.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6076102+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1768E72P274C712441", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Murray, Elaine", "ID": 1768, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumfries" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Murray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Murray: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 230.0, "ContributionID": 712441, "EditedText": "Not all of them are; Dumfries and Galloway is not our council. I am more than happy for extra resources to be used in the fight against drugs, which are a major problem in my constituency and almost everywhere else in the country. I want improvements in crime prevention to ensure that fewer people commit crimes and have to go to prison. I want to ask the minister for his assistance. On 7 November, I met members of the Prison Service who work at the young offenders institute in Dumfries. They asked me questions that I could not answer. I wrote to the minister and to Tony Cameron, the chief executive of the Scottish Prison Service, but have not yet received a reply. Although I am sure I will receive one at some point, I ask the minister for his help today. I have three questions. First, if the £13 million is an underspend—my understanding is that that means money that has not been spent—what is the need for further cuts in the Prison Service's budget? Are further savings being sought? Secondly, if efficiency savings result in job losses, what incentive is there for prison officers to look for further efficiency savings in the future?", "EditedTextHTML": "Not all of them are; Dumfries and Galloway is not our council.

I am more than happy for extra resources to be used in the fight against drugs, which are a major problem in my constituency and almost everywhere else in the country. I want improvements in crime prevention to ensure that fewer people commit crimes and have to go to prison.

I want to ask the minister for his assistance. On 7 November, I met members of the Prison Service who work at the young offenders institute in Dumfries. They asked me questions that I could not answer. I wrote to the minister and to Tony Cameron, the chief executive of the Scottish Prison Service, but have not yet received a reply. Although I am sure I will receive one at some point, I ask the minister for his help today.

I have three questions. First, if the £13 million is an underspend—my understanding is that that means money that has not been spent—what is the need for further cuts in the Prison Service's budget? Are further savings being sought?

Secondly, if efficiency savings result in job losses, what incentive is there for prison officers to look for further efficiency savings in the future?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6076102+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1821E295P538C712442", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Mrs Margaret", "ID": 1821, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Moray" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Margaret Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 232.0, "ContributionID": 712442, "EditedText": "On a point of order. Dr Murray has made some substantial points and has asked questions of the minister. However, throughout her speech, the minister has been engaged in a conversation and cannot possibly have taken her points on board.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. Dr Murray has made some substantial points and has asked questions of the minister. However, throughout her speech, the minister has been engaged in a conversation and cannot possibly have taken her points on board.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6076102+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1768E72P274C712443", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Murray, Elaine", "ID": 1768, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumfries" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Murray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Murray: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 234.0, "ContributionID": 712443, "EditedText": "I will finish on my third question. Why were the absence rates of prison officers compared with rates in the retail trade, when the levels of stress and assault in those occupations are in no way comparable? I would be obliged for the minister's views on those three points, so that I can answer the questions that have put to me by my constituents in Dumfries.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will finish on my third question. Why were the absence rates of prison officers compared with rates in the retail trade, when the levels of stress and assault in those occupations are in no way comparable?

I would be obliged for the minister's views on those three points, so that I can answer the questions that have put to me by my constituents in Dumfries.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6076102+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2108E50P256C712446", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macintosh, Ken", "ID": 2108, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Eastwood" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ken Macintosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Macintosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 241.0, "ContributionID": 712446, "EditedText": "I welcome Mr Gallie's remarks. If only he would welcome the fact that the Executive is tackling crime in much the way that he is outlining. There is more to it than that. This is not just about statistical measurements of crime, police figures and prison numbers. The key point is Mr Gallie's failure to recognise that, as well as clamping down on crime, the Government is trying to tackle its underlying causes. Crime has to be tackled at all levels: in schools, through educating children in their responsibilities to themselves and to others as good citizens; in homes and neighbourhoods, through ensuring warm, clean houses, safe streets and an environment in which crime is not allowed to flourish; and through the economy, by ensuring that citizens feel part of the community in which they live and that they identify with society and feel that they have a stake in it. The Conservatives' approach during their time in office failed our country—they are still failing us— because of their inability to address the relationship between crime and the wider society. That point was made by Dr Murray a few moments ago when she quoted Mrs Thatcher's famous line about there being no such thing as society. Despite what Mr Monteith said, there is no doubt that Mrs Thatcher was trying to say that there are no social causes for our behaviour. The failure to recognise that is part of the Conservatives' failure to recognise the reasons behind crime or to deal with law and order. It is not just Mrs Thatcher. It would be one thing if that attitude had been confined to the 1980s, but the motion provides evidence to the contrary. The implication of the motion is that we were wrong to incorporate the European convention on human rights into Scots law.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome Mr Gallie's remarks. If only he would welcome the fact that the Executive is tackling crime in much the way that he is outlining.

There is more to it than that. This is not just about statistical measurements of crime, police figures and prison numbers. The key point is Mr Gallie's failure to recognise that, as well as clamping down on crime, the Government is trying to tackle its underlying causes. Crime has to be tackled at all levels: in schools, through educating children in their responsibilities to themselves and to others as good citizens; in homes and neighbourhoods, through ensuring warm, clean houses, safe streets and an environment in which crime is not allowed to flourish; and through the economy, by ensuring that citizens feel part of the community in which they live and that they identify with society and feel that they have a stake in it.

The Conservatives' approach during their time in office failed our country—they are still failing us— because of their inability to address the relationship between crime and the wider society. That point was made by Dr Murray a few moments ago when she quoted Mrs Thatcher's famous line about there being no such thing as society. Despite what Mr Monteith said, there is no doubt that Mrs Thatcher was trying to say that there are no social causes for our behaviour. The failure to recognise that is part of the Conservatives' failure to recognise the reasons behind crime or to deal with law and order.

It is not just Mrs Thatcher. It would be one thing if that attitude had been confined to the 1980s, but the motion provides evidence to the contrary. The implication of the motion is that we were wrong to incorporate the European convention on human rights into Scots law.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6076102+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C712447", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Monteith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 243.0, "ContributionID": 712447, "EditedText": "Surely the point that Margaret Thatcher was trying to make was that people should take responsibility for their own behaviour rather than place it on some abstract called society. She was not saying that society does not exist, but that people should not say it is society's fault, when they are unwilling to take responsibility. If they did take responsibility, less crime would be committed.", "EditedTextHTML": "Surely the point that Margaret Thatcher was trying to make was that people should take responsibility for their own behaviour rather than place it on some abstract called society. She was not saying that society does not exist, but that people should not say it is society's fault, when they are unwilling to take responsibility. If they did take responsibility, less crime would be committed.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6076102+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2108E50P256C712450", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macintosh, Ken", "ID": 2108, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Eastwood" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ken Macintosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Macintosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 249.0, "ContributionID": 712450, "EditedText": "I have read the speech and I am quite clear about what she said. I say to the Conservatives that the only way to tackle crime is to educate our citizens to accept and believe in their human rights, and the corollary of that, which is to accept, believe in, and maintain their responsibility to others. The Conservative motion is a lock-them-up-and-throw-away-the-key approach. That approach has not worked in the past and there is no reason to believe that it will work in the future. There is no recognition that the Executive will punish people who break our laws— and much more; it will tackle the underlying reasons why we live in a crime-ridden society. I urge members to reject the Conservative motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have read the speech and I am quite clear about what she said.

I say to the Conservatives that the only way to tackle crime is to educate our citizens to accept and believe in their human rights, and the corollary of that, which is to accept, believe in, and maintain their responsibility to others. The Conservative motion is a lock-them-up-and-throw-away-the-key approach. That approach has not worked in the past and there is no reason to believe that it will work in the future. There is no recognition that the Executive will punish people who break our laws— and much more; it will tackle the underlying reasons why we live in a crime-ridden society. I urge members to reject the Conservative motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6076102+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C712454", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 259.0, "ContributionID": 712454, "EditedText": "I hear what Cathy Jamieson is saying about young offenders. A week or two ago, in her constituency, a young offender was put on probation for a vicious attack on a middle-aged lady suffering from learning difficulties and a robbery from someone with learning difficulties. Does she think that, rather than being put on probation and sent off to an outward bound course, that individual should have been sent to prison?", "EditedTextHTML": "I hear what Cathy Jamieson is saying about young offenders. A week or two ago, in her constituency, a young offender was put on probation for a vicious attack on a middle-aged lady suffering from learning difficulties and a robbery from someone with learning difficulties. Does she think that, rather than being put on probation and sent off to an outward bound course, that individual should have been sent to

prison?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6076102+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C712456", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 263.0, "ContributionID": 712456, "EditedText": "In the interest of fairness, I should like to say that my strictures about interruptions apply to people turning their backs on members when speaking. We have two more speeches before closing, as Brian Monteith has graciously ceded his place to Alex Fergusson.", "EditedTextHTML": "In the interest of fairness, I should like to say that my strictures about interruptions apply to people turning their backs on members when speaking. We have two more speeches before closing, as Brian Monteith has graciously ceded his place to Alex Fergusson.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6076102+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C712460", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 274.0, "ContributionID": 712460, "EditedText": "We accept that there was a rise in crime during that period. Does Mr Robson accept that when I said that the previous Government had presided over the longest sustained reduction in crime, the figures were for the period 1991 to 1997? Does he accept that the trend has reversed and that the figures are now increasing?", "EditedTextHTML": "We accept that there was a rise in crime during that period. Does Mr Robson accept

that when I said that the previous Government had presided over the longest sustained reduction in crime, the figures were for the period 1991 to 1997? Does he accept that the trend has reversed and that the figures are now increasing?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6076102+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C712476", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 309.0, "ContributionID": 712476, "EditedText": "Mr McLetchie must refer to the facts that the minister gave to me in a written answer in the autumn, in reference to the three police forces in the region that I represent. When the Conservatives left office, Central Scotland had 686 officers—it now has 719. Fife had 831 officers—it now has 846. Tayside had 1,116 officers—it now has 1,149. Those figures are incontestable. The police forces have increased in the region that I represent since the Conservatives left office.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr McLetchie must refer to the facts that the minister gave to me in a written answer in the autumn, in reference to the three police forces in the region that I represent. When the Conservatives left office, Central Scotland had 686 officers—it now has 719. Fife had 831 officers—it now has 846. Tayside had 1,116 officers—it now has 1,149. Those figures are incontestable. The police forces have increased in the region that I represent since the Conservatives left office.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6076102+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C712477", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 311.0, "ContributionID": 712477, "EditedText": "I apologise to Mr Raffan, but those figures are highly selective, and are drawn from only a few examples.", "EditedTextHTML": "I apologise to Mr Raffan, but those figures are highly selective, and are drawn from only a few examples.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6076102+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C712467", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 290.0, "ContributionID": 712467, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6076102+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C712471", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie (Lothians) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 299.0, "ContributionID": 712471, "EditedText": "I thought that Mystic Meg was going to be out of a job because of all the predictions that Angus MacKay made about what I was going to say. I am pleased to wind up this debate on law and order—it is good to see the Parliament getting down to some real business on important topics that are of concern to people and communities throughout Scotland. There have been many useful and thoughtful contributions from members of all parties, particularly those drawing on members' own experiences of the state of the police service in their areas. They also mentioned examples of the important initiatives that are being taken in many communities, to help in dealing with law and order issues. I welcome that. The debate has shown that, while the Scottish Executive seems to have a strategy, a task force and an action plan for everything from the millennium bug to digital Scotland, it has very little idea of how to perform the prime functions of government—the maintenance of law and order and ensuring that our people have a secure and safe society in which to live. Its policy is riddled with contradictions. Ministers have not resorted to the barefaced lies of Jack Straw, their colleague down south, in relation to police numbers, but we have had the usual blizzard of statistics. There are some basic facts that are chiels that winna ding—police numbers are down, crime is up, prison officers are being laid off and prisons are being closed. Those are the fundamentals. All the blizzards of statistics in the world cannot disguise those facts. We have heard of the concern that is being voiced by the chairman of the Scottish Police Federation. At a time when the public overwhelmingly want more police officers on the streets, when crime figures are rising, and when calls on police services have never been greater, this Government—which says that it is committed to law and order—is creating a situation in which police officer numbers are falling. That is the view of the chairman of the Scottish Police Federation. In its 1997 manifesto, the Labour party promised—and I am sure that members can recite it like parrots—to \"get more officers back on the beat\".Jim Wallace and the Liberal Democrats, in their 1999 Scottish Parliament manifesto, said that they would \"keep the police service up to strength.\"Both parties are failing.Today we have heard about the impact of civilianisation. As the minister fairly acknowledged, civilianisation is a process that has been going on in the police service for several years. He said at the outset of his remarks that the number of civilians who are employed by our police forces has increased by some 2,000 over the past 20 years. Although no one denies the value of civilianisation, I object to the fact that Jim Wallace and the Executive seem to think that civilianisation is an alternative to having officers on the street to perform their functions. We need both, but the Executive is cutting the number of officers. The two are not alternatives, to be traded off one against the other.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thought that Mystic Meg was going to be out of a job because of all the predictions that Angus MacKay made about what I was going to say.

I am pleased to wind up this debate on law and order—it is good to see the Parliament getting down to some real business on important topics that are of concern to people and communities throughout Scotland.

There have been many useful and thoughtful contributions from members of all parties, particularly those drawing on members' own experiences of the state of the police service in their areas. They also mentioned examples of the important initiatives that are being taken in many communities, to help in dealing with law and order issues. I welcome that.

The debate has shown that, while the Scottish Executive seems to have a strategy, a task force and an action plan for everything from the millennium bug to digital Scotland, it has very little idea of how to perform the prime functions of government—the maintenance of law and order and ensuring that our people have a secure and safe society in which to live. Its policy is riddled with contradictions.

Ministers have not resorted to the barefaced lies of Jack Straw, their colleague down south, in relation to police numbers, but we have had the usual blizzard of statistics. There are some basic facts that are chiels that winna ding—police numbers are down, crime is up, prison officers are being laid off and prisons are being closed. Those are the fundamentals. All the blizzards of statistics in the world cannot disguise those facts.

We have heard of the concern that is being voiced by the chairman of the Scottish Police Federation. At a time when the public overwhelmingly want more police officers on the streets, when crime figures are rising, and when calls on police services have never been greater, this Government—which says that it is committed to law and order—is creating a situation in which police officer numbers are falling. That is the view of the chairman of the Scottish Police Federation.

In its 1997 manifesto, the Labour party promised—and I am sure that members can recite it like parrots—to

\"get more officers back on the beat\".

Jim Wallace and the Liberal Democrats, in their 1999 Scottish Parliament manifesto, said that they would

\"keep the police service up to strength.\"

Both parties are failing.

Today we have heard about the impact of civilianisation. As the minister fairly acknowledged, civilianisation is a process that has been going on in the police service for several years. He said at the outset of his remarks that the number of civilians who are employed by our police forces has increased by some 2,000 over the past 20 years. Although no one denies the value of civilianisation, I object to the fact that Jim Wallace and the Executive seem to think that civilianisation is an alternative to having officers on the street to perform their functions. We need both, but the Executive is cutting the number of officers. The two are not alternatives, to be traded off one against the other.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6076102+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C712472", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Jim Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 301.0, "ContributionID": 712472, "EditedText": "I can confirm to Mr McLetchie that they are not alternatives to trade off one against the other. I agree with that. The simple fact that he does not seem able to get his mind round is that civilianisation frees up the time for officers to get out and perform front-line functions. That is what the public expect.", "EditedTextHTML": "I can confirm to Mr McLetchie that they are not alternatives to trade off one against the other. I agree with that. The simple fact that he does not seem able to get his mind round is that civilianisation frees up the time for officers

to get out and perform front-line functions. That is what the public expect.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6076102+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C712474", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 305.0, "ContributionID": 712474, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6076102+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C712478", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 313.0, "ContributionID": 712478, "EditedText": "Those are the official figures.", "EditedTextHTML": "Those are the official figures.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6076102+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712485", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27111, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 323.0, "ID": 27111, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 327.0, "ContributionID": 712485, "EditedText": "That the Parliament agrees the following programme of business—", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament agrees the following programme of business—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6076102+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712491", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27111, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 323.0, "ID": 27111, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 333.0, "ContributionID": 712491, "EditedText": "2.30 pm Question Time", "EditedTextHTML": "2.30 pm Question Time

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6076102+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712492", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27111, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 323.0, "ID": 27111, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 334.0, "ContributionID": 712492, "EditedText": "3.00 pm Open Question Time followed by, no later than 3.15 pm, Debate on an Executive motion on Equalities", "EditedTextHTML": "3.00 pm Open Question Time followed by, no later than 3.15 pm, Debate on an Executive motion on Equalities

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6076102+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712496", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27111, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 323.0, "ID": 27111, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 338.0, "ContributionID": 712496, "EditedText": "5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business", "EditedTextHTML": "5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6076102+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712498", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27111, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 323.0, "ID": 27111, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 340.0, "ContributionID": 712498, "EditedText": "9.30 am Stage 1 Debate on Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill followed by Business Motion followed by Parliamentary Bureau motions", "EditedTextHTML": "9.30 am Stage 1 Debate on Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill followed by Business Motion followed by Parliamentary Bureau motions

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6076102+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712500", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27111, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 323.0, "ID": 27111, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 342.0, "ContributionID": 712500, "EditedText": "3.00 pm Open Question Time followed by, no later than 3.15 pm, Ministerial Statement followed by, no later than 3.45 pm, Debate on a Report by the Procedures Committee", "EditedTextHTML": "3.00 pm Open Question Time followed by, no later than 3.15 pm, Ministerial Statement followed by, no later than 3.45 pm, Debate on a Report by the Procedures Committee

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6076102+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712505", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27111, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 323.0, "ID": 27111, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 349.0, "ContributionID": 712505, "EditedText": "Meeting adjourned at 12:33.", "EditedTextHTML": "Meeting adjourned at 12:33.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6076102+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C712507", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27112, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 352.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27113, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 353.0, "QuestionHeading": "Prime Minister (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27114, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 354.0, "DisplayOrder": 354.0, "ID": 27114, "ParentID": 27113 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "1. Dennis Canavan (Falkirk West): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 355.0, "ContributionID": 712507, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will detail what specific matters of mutual interest were discussed at the last meeting between the First Minister and the Prime Minister and what specific matters will be discussed at the next meeting. (S1O-690) The First Minister (Donald Dewar): I hope that the member will not think that I am being difficult if I say that the details of those discussions are private.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will detail what specific matters of mutual interest were discussed at the last meeting between the First Minister and the Prime Minister and what specific matters will be discussed at the next meeting. (S1O-690) The First Minister (Donald Dewar): I hope that the member will not think that I am being difficult if I say that the details of those discussions are private.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6076102+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2167E79P155C712511", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27112, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 352.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27113, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 353.0, "QuestionHeading": "Teachers", "QuestionHeadingID": 27115, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 361.0, "DisplayOrder": 361.0, "ID": 27115, "ParentID": 27113 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Peacock, Peter", "ID": 2167, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Peter Peacock", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Education (Peter Peacock): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 364.0, "ContributionID": 712511, "EditedText": "All teachers should have access to continuing professional development. The framework that we announced recently will take account of the requirements of the more remote areas of Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "All teachers should have access to continuing professional development. The framework that we announced recently will take account of the requirements of the more remote areas of Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6076102+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1862E99P179C712516", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27112, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 352.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27113, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 353.0, "QuestionHeading": "Listed Buildings", "QuestionHeadingID": 27116, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 370.0, "DisplayOrder": 370.0, "ID": 27116, "ParentID": 27113 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Brankin, Rhona", "ID": 1862, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Midlothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Culture and Sport", "SpeakerName": "Rhona Brankin", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Rhona Brankin: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 375.0, "ContributionID": 712516, "EditedText": "I am not in a position to comment at this stage, other than to say that the historic buildings inspectorate is working closely with Fife Council to deal with some of the applications relating to the Frances colliery.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am not in a position to comment at this stage, other than to say that the historic buildings inspectorate is working closely with Fife Council to deal with some of the applications relating to the Frances colliery.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2068E171P304C712517", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27112, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 352.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27113, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 353.0, "QuestionHeading": "Agricultural Business Improvement Scheme", "QuestionHeadingID": 27117, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 377.0, "DisplayOrder": 377.0, "ID": 27117, "ParentID": 27113 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stone, Jamie", "ID": 2068, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie Stone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "4. Mr Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 378.0, "ContributionID": 712517, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has to reimburse farmers and crofters for the costs incurred in presenting their applications to the agricultural business improvement scheme. (S1O-709) The Minister for Rural Affairs (Ross Finnie): Where works are approved and carried out by the department, grant assistance is available for planning consent and professional fees. However, there is no provision under the terms of the scheme to assist with those costs if the applications are not approved.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has to reimburse farmers and crofters for the costs incurred in presenting their applications to the agricultural business improvement scheme. (S1O-709) The Minister for Rural Affairs (Ross Finnie): Where works are approved and carried out by the department, grant assistance is available for planning consent and professional fees. However, there is no provision under the terms of the scheme to assist with those costs if the applications are not approved.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C712519", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27112, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 352.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27113, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 353.0, "QuestionHeading": "Agricultural Business Improvement Scheme", "QuestionHeadingID": 27117, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 377.0, "DisplayOrder": 377.0, "ID": 27117, "ParentID": 27113 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ross Finnie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 382.0, "ContributionID": 712519, "EditedText": "In seeking a solution to this vexed question, I am happy to examine that suggestion, although I must give a word of caution about how that proposition relates to the statement of funding policy that was agreed between the Scottish Executive and the UK Government. The new agricultural development measures that have been incorporated into the draft Highlands and Islands structural funds programme, which will include a scheme not dissimilar to ABIS, might offer another part of the solution.", "EditedTextHTML": "In seeking a solution to this vexed question, I am happy to examine that suggestion, although I must give a word of caution about how that proposition relates to the statement of funding policy that was agreed between the Scottish Executive and the UK Government. The new agricultural development measures that have been incorporated into the draft Highlands and Islands structural funds programme, which will include a scheme not dissimilar to ABIS, might offer another part of the solution.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1821E295P538C712521", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27112, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 352.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27113, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 353.0, "QuestionHeading": "Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill", "QuestionHeadingID": 27118, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 384.0, "DisplayOrder": 384.0, "ID": 27118, "ParentID": 27113 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Mrs Margaret", "ID": 1821, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Moray" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 387.0, "ContributionID": 712521, "EditedText": "The minister and I share concerns about this bill and want to ensure that the process is concluded in a way that is acceptable to everyone. Given the importance of both the legislation and the Millan committee, can we be assured that the Executive will not tie that legislation into such a tight time scale that there will be no interplay between the Millan committee and those of us who are interested in the legislation?", "EditedTextHTML": "The minister and I share concerns about this bill and want to ensure that the process is concluded in a way that is acceptable to everyone. Given the importance of both the legislation and the Millan committee, can we be assured that the Executive will not tie that legislation into such a tight time scale that there will be no interplay between the Millan committee and those of us who are interested in the legislation?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2033E106P139C712522", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27112, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 352.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27113, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 353.0, "QuestionHeading": "Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill", "QuestionHeadingID": 27118, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 384.0, "DisplayOrder": 384.0, "ID": 27118, "ParentID": 27113 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gray, Iain", "ID": 2033, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Pentlands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Iain Gray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Iain Gray: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 389.0, "ContributionID": 712522, "EditedText": "I have tried to indicate that that interplay and communication has already taken place. We have made it clear that, in the longer term, following the debate and legislation, we will amend the adults with incapacity legislation to take account of the conclusions of the Millan committee if that is required. I assure Mrs Ewing that the hope and intention is to modernise legislation on incapacity without delay, while allowing a proper re-examination of mental health legislation through the Millan committee. We must get both those things right.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have tried to indicate that that interplay and communication has already taken place. We have made it clear that, in the longer term, following the debate and legislation, we will amend the adults with incapacity legislation to take account of the conclusions of the Millan committee if that is required. I assure Mrs Ewing that the hope and intention is to modernise legislation on incapacity without delay, while allowing a proper re-examination of mental health legislation through the Millan committee. We must get both those things right.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1821E295P538C712523", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27112, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 352.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27113, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 353.0, "QuestionHeading": "Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill", "QuestionHeadingID": 27118, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 384.0, "DisplayOrder": 384.0, "ID": 27118, "ParentID": 27113 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Mrs Margaret", "ID": 1821, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Moray" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 391.0, "ContributionID": 712523, "EditedText": "Surely we do not want to have to go back to amend this important piece of legislation. We should be aiming to get it correct in the first instance.", "EditedTextHTML": "Surely we do not want to have to go back to amend this important piece of legislation. We should be aiming to get it correct in the first instance.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2033E106P139C712524", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27112, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 352.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27113, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 353.0, "QuestionHeading": "Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill", "QuestionHeadingID": 27118, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 384.0, "DisplayOrder": 384.0, "ID": 27118, "ParentID": 27113 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gray, Iain", "ID": 2033, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Pentlands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Iain Gray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Iain Gray: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 393.0, "ContributionID": 712524, "EditedText": "I appreciate that sentiment but, two weeks after this Parliament was constituted, a conference was held by the alliance for incapable adults, as it then was. I recall seeing in the media a woman at that conference weeping because of the problems that she had in caring for her husband, who was suffering the early onset of dementia; the closure of their bank account meant that she had no access to their resources. We believe that the adults with incapacity legislation cannot wait. People have waited for it since 1994 and we do not want to hold it up any longer. We want to ensure that the Millan committee will impact on adults with incapacity without making people wait any longer.", "EditedTextHTML": "I appreciate that sentiment but, two weeks after this Parliament was constituted, a conference was held by the alliance for incapable adults, as it then was. I recall seeing in the media a woman at that conference weeping because of the problems that she had in caring for her husband, who was suffering the early onset of dementia; the closure of their bank account meant that she had no access to their resources. We believe that the adults with incapacity legislation cannot wait. People have waited for it since 1994 and we do not want to hold it up any longer. We want to ensure that the Millan committee will impact on adults with incapacity without making people wait any longer.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C712526", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27112, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 352.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27113, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 353.0, "QuestionHeading": "Peterhead Prison", "QuestionHeadingID": 27119, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 395.0, "DisplayOrder": 395.0, "ID": 27119, "ParentID": 27113 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice (Mr Jim Wallace): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 398.0, "ContributionID": 712526, "EditedText": "The Scottish Prison Service took into account several matters, the most important of which were the operational impact of closure, the cost per prisoner place and the flexibility of the establishment.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Scottish Prison Service took into account several matters, the most important of which were the operational impact of closure, the cost per prisoner place and the flexibility of the establishment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C712528", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27112, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 352.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27113, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 353.0, "QuestionHeading": "Peterhead Prison", "QuestionHeadingID": 27119, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 395.0, "DisplayOrder": 395.0, "ID": 27119, "ParentID": 27113 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 402.0, "ContributionID": 712528, "EditedText": "Back in the spring of this year, staff representatives were given forewarning that there would be some changes, although specific changes were not discussed. Following the decisions taken on 21 October, I understand— these are operational matters for the SPS—that efforts were made to advise staff at the earliest possible opportunity. After the board took the final decisions, the staff were informed at the earliest opportunity.", "EditedTextHTML": "Back in the spring of this year, staff representatives were given forewarning that there would be some changes, although specific changes were not discussed. Following the decisions taken on 21 October, I understand— these are operational matters for the SPS—that

efforts were made to advise staff at the earliest possible opportunity. After the board took the final decisions, the staff were informed at the earliest opportunity.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1926E190P479C712529", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27112, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 352.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27113, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 353.0, "QuestionHeading": "Peterhead Prison", "QuestionHeadingID": 27119, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 395.0, "DisplayOrder": 395.0, "ID": 27119, "ParentID": 27113 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Adam, Brian", "ID": 1926, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Adam", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Brian Adam: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 404.0, "ContributionID": 712529, "EditedText": "The concern is that the staff were informed after the decision was taken. That did not allow for any meaningful consultation.", "EditedTextHTML": "The concern is that the staff were informed after the decision was taken. That did not allow for any meaningful consultation.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C712530", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27112, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 352.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27113, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 353.0, "QuestionHeading": "Peterhead Prison", "QuestionHeadingID": 27119, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 395.0, "DisplayOrder": 395.0, "ID": 27119, "ParentID": 27113 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 406.0, "ContributionID": 712530, "EditedText": "I met representatives of the SPS trade union side, including the Scottish Prison Officers Association, earlier this month. At that meeting, a willingness to co-operate and hold discussions with the SPS was indicated. Indeed, I think that that was taken forward. I want to make it clear that, although there were discussions, the decisions were based on the report that was given to the board by Mr Duffy, and were not the responsibility of the trade union side.", "EditedTextHTML": "I met representatives of the SPS trade union side, including the Scottish Prison Officers Association, earlier this month. At that meeting, a willingness to co-operate and hold discussions with the SPS was indicated. Indeed, I think that that was taken forward. I want to make it clear that, although there were discussions, the decisions were based on the report that was given to the board by Mr Duffy, and were not the responsibility of the trade union side.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C712532", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27112, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 352.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27113, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 353.0, "QuestionHeading": "Perth and Kinross Council", "QuestionHeadingID": 27120, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 408.0, "DisplayOrder": 408.0, "ID": 27120, "ParentID": 27113 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 411.0, "ContributionID": 712532, "EditedText": "Is the minister aware that Perth and Kinross Council will have to make savings of between £10 million and £12 million to spend at, or below, guideline in the next financial year? Will he acknowledge that although, like Aberdeenshire, Perth and Kinross Council faces particular service pressures owing to population growth, the grant- aided expenditure assessment is based on population figures that are two years old?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is the minister aware that Perth and Kinross Council will have to make savings of between £10 million and £12 million to spend at, or below, guideline in the next financial year? Will he acknowledge that although, like Aberdeenshire, Perth and Kinross Council faces particular service pressures owing to population growth, the grant- aided expenditure assessment is based on population figures that are two years old?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C712533", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27112, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 352.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27113, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 353.0, "QuestionHeading": "Perth and Kinross Council", "QuestionHeadingID": 27120, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 408.0, "DisplayOrder": 408.0, "ID": 27120, "ParentID": 27113 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 413.0, "ContributionID": 712533, "EditedText": "The guideline figures for next year have not yet been published, but it is almost certain that next year's guideline figure for Perth and Kinross Council will be higher than its actual budget—never mind the guideline figure—for this year. To suggest that cuts of that magnitude are required is false. It is entirely appropriate that the council carries out the commitment that it gave me in June that it could have been on guideline this year if it had known that the figures would be applied within 1 per cent.", "EditedTextHTML": "The guideline figures for next year have not yet been published, but it is almost certain that next year's guideline figure for Perth and Kinross Council will be higher than its actual budget—never mind the guideline figure—for this year. To suggest that cuts of that magnitude are required is false. It is entirely appropriate that the council carries out the commitment that it gave me in June that it could have been on guideline this year if it had known that the figures would be applied within 1 per cent.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C712535", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27112, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 352.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27113, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 353.0, "QuestionHeading": "Perth and Kinross Council", "QuestionHeadingID": 27120, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 408.0, "DisplayOrder": 408.0, "ID": 27120, "ParentID": 27113 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 417.0, "ContributionID": 712535, "EditedText": "Yes.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1996E124P211C712538", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27112, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 352.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27113, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 353.0, "QuestionHeading": "Housing", "QuestionHeadingID": 27121, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 419.0, "DisplayOrder": 419.0, "ID": 27121, "ParentID": 27113 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAveety, Mr Frank", "ID": 1996, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Shettleston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Local Government", "SpeakerName": "Frank McAveety", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McAveety: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 424.0, "ContributionID": 712538, "EditedText": "The SNP's vision of Scottish housing is a pigpen. It is good to see that the member is concerned about the Liberal Democrats, given that she has spent the past six or seven months attacking our coalition partners on the issue of delivering for Scotland. Through a combination of new housing partnerships and the warm deal, together with the fact that we—uniquely in the United Kingdom— have included a training element in the warm deal, our partnership commitment is to ensure that we deliver decent housing for the people of Scotland. We believe that we are on the way to delivering that.", "EditedTextHTML": "The SNP's vision of Scottish housing is a pigpen. It is good to see that the member is concerned about the Liberal Democrats, given that she has spent the past six or seven months attacking our coalition partners on the issue of delivering for Scotland.

Through a combination of new housing partnerships and the warm deal, together with the fact that we—uniquely in the United Kingdom— have included a training element in the warm deal, our partnership commitment is to ensure that we deliver decent housing for the people of Scotland. We believe that we are on the way to delivering that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2154E194P299C712542", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27112, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 352.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27113, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 353.0, "QuestionHeading": "Enterprise Policy", "QuestionHeadingID": 27122, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 426.0, "DisplayOrder": 426.0, "ID": 27122, "ParentID": 27113 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stephen, Nicol", "ID": 2154, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Nicol Stephen", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicol Stephen: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 433.0, "ContributionID": 712542, "EditedText": "As Mr Swinney knows, those issues were discussed in the debate last week, after which I wrote to him and other spokespeople. The new high-tech venture capital fund will apply right across the UK, as will several of the other initiatives that Gordon Brown announced. In some areas, we in Scotland will have separate schemes. The advantage of that is that we get the best of both worlds: we get the opportunity to adapt schemes to our own circumstances, as we should where separate initiatives are required for the particular interests of Scottish companies and the Scottish economy.", "EditedTextHTML": "As Mr Swinney knows, those issues were discussed in the debate last week, after which I wrote to him and other spokespeople. The new high-tech venture capital fund will apply right across the UK, as will several of the other initiatives that Gordon Brown announced. In some areas, we in Scotland will have separate schemes. The advantage of that is that we get the best of both worlds: we get the opportunity to adapt schemes to our own circumstances, as we should where separate initiatives are required for the particular interests of Scottish companies and the Scottish economy.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1906E278P355C712546", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27112, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 352.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27113, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 353.0, "QuestionHeading": "Student Loans", "QuestionHeadingID": 27123, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 439.0, "DisplayOrder": 439.0, "ID": 27123, "ParentID": 27113 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Welsh, Andrew", "ID": 1906, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Angus" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Welsh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Welsh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 442.0, "ContributionID": 712546, "EditedText": "Is the minister aware of problems over the payment date for loans and—for those on short-term contracts who wish to reinstate their loan—of problems over a helpline that is sometimes less than helpful? Will he undertake to look into those matters to improve the service for the students involved?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is the minister aware of problems over the payment date for loans and—for those on short-term contracts who wish to reinstate their loan—of problems over a helpline that is sometimes less than helpful? Will he undertake to look into those matters to improve the service for the students involved?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2154E194P299C712547", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27112, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 352.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27113, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 353.0, "QuestionHeading": "Student Loans", "QuestionHeadingID": 27123, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 439.0, "DisplayOrder": 439.0, "ID": 27123, "ParentID": 27113 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stephen, Nicol", "ID": 2154, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Nicol Stephen", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicol Stephen: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 444.0, "ContributionID": 712547, "EditedText": "I am aware that there are problems in individual cases; if they are drawn to my attention, I will certainly investigate them. The figures that I have show that, by 25 November, the Student Awards Agency had received 114,177 applications, of which 113,373— more than 99 per cent—had been processed or otherwise actioned. The indications are that the Student Loans Company has authorised for payment more than 99 per cent of the processed loan applications that it has received. However, a full audited report will be passed to ministers at the end of the first academic term.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am aware that there are problems in individual cases; if they are drawn to my attention, I will certainly investigate them.

The figures that I have show that, by 25 November, the Student Awards Agency had received 114,177 applications, of which 113,373— more than 99 per cent—had been processed or otherwise actioned. The indications are that the Student Loans Company has authorised for payment more than 99 per cent of the processed loan applications that it has received. However, a full audited report will be passed to ministers at the end of the first academic term.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1770E82P108C712548", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27112, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 352.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27113, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 353.0, "QuestionHeading": "Business Rates", "QuestionHeadingID": 27124, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 446.0, "DisplayOrder": 446.0, "ID": 27124, "ParentID": 27113 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Thomson, Elaine", "ID": 1770, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Thomson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "12. Elaine Thomson (Aberdeen North) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 447.0, "ContributionID": 712548, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether the current review of business rates will address the particular concerns of small businesses. (S1O-731)", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether the current review of business rates will address the particular concerns of small businesses. (S1O-731)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C712549", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27112, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 352.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27113, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 353.0, "QuestionHeading": "Business Rates", "QuestionHeadingID": 27124, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 446.0, "DisplayOrder": 446.0, "ID": 27124, "ParentID": 27113 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Finance (Mr Jack McConnell): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 449.0, "ContributionID": 712549, "EditedText": "Yes. We are currently considering whether a rates relief scheme for small businesses is necessary and affordable. I have also issued a consultation paper on proposals for a transitional relief scheme that will help businesses—in particular, small businesses—to cope with any increases that might follow the non-domestic rates revaluation in 2000. The consultation period ends tomorrow and I expect to announce decisions before Christmas.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes. We are currently considering whether a rates relief scheme for small businesses is necessary and affordable. I have also issued a consultation paper on proposals for a transitional relief scheme that will help businesses—in particular, small businesses—to cope with any increases that might follow the non-domestic rates revaluation in 2000. The consultation period ends tomorrow and I expect to announce decisions before Christmas.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1837E108P186C712560", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27112, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 352.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27113, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 353.0, "QuestionHeading": "Teacher Training", "QuestionHeadingID": 27127, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 27127, "ParentID": 27113 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mulligan, Mary", "ID": 1837, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Linlithgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Mulligan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Mulligan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 474.0, "ContributionID": 712560, "EditedText": "Why are a number of schools in some parts of Scotland—including Bathgate Academy in my constituency—having great difficulty in getting supply teachers?", "EditedTextHTML": "Why are a number of schools in some parts of Scotland—including Bathgate Academy in my constituency—having great difficulty in getting supply teachers?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1837E108P186C712562", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27112, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 352.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27113, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 353.0, "QuestionHeading": "Teacher Training", "QuestionHeadingID": 27127, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 27127, "ParentID": 27113 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mulligan, Mary", "ID": 1837, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Linlithgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Mulligan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Mulligan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 478.0, "ContributionID": 712562, "EditedText": "With reference to the campaign to encourage people into training, will the minister give an assurance that there are sufficient places in training establishments to ensure that people can be taken on?", "EditedTextHTML": "With reference to the campaign to encourage people into training, will the minister give an assurance that there are sufficient places in training establishments to ensure that people can be taken on?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2167E79P155C712563", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27112, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 352.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27113, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 353.0, "QuestionHeading": "Teacher Training", "QuestionHeadingID": 27127, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 27127, "ParentID": 27113 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Peacock, Peter", "ID": 2167, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Peter Peacock", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Peter Peacock: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 480.0, "ContributionID": 712563, "EditedText": "The Executive and the Scottish Higher Education Funding Council are in constant discussions about the number of training places. Any cap on higher education places will not impact on that group of people.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Executive and the Scottish Higher Education Funding Council are in constant discussions about the number of training places. Any cap on higher education places will not impact on that group of people.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1889E118P162C712565", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27112, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 352.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27113, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 353.0, "QuestionHeading": "Rail Safety", "QuestionHeadingID": 27128, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 482.0, "DisplayOrder": 482.0, "ID": 27128, "ParentID": 27113 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morrison, Mr Alasdair", "ID": 1889, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Western Isles" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morrison", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Highlands and Islands and Gaelic (Mr Alasdair Morrison): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 485.0, "ContributionID": 712565, "EditedText": "Earlier this month, Sarah Boyack received a detailed briefing from Railtrack on rail safety in Scotland. During that meeting, Railtrack outlined plans for introducing a range of safety measures at level crossings.", "EditedTextHTML": "Earlier this month, Sarah Boyack received a detailed briefing from Railtrack on rail safety in Scotland. During that meeting, Railtrack outlined plans for introducing a range of safety measures at level crossings.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C712569", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27112, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 352.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27113, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 353.0, "QuestionHeading": "Non-domestic Rates", "QuestionHeadingID": 27129, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 491.0, "DisplayOrder": 491.0, "ID": 27129, "ParentID": 27113 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Finance (Mr Jack McConnell): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 494.0, "ContributionID": 712569, "EditedText": "The impact on individual businesses of this year's revaluation will depend on valuations still to be determined. However, in the interests of Scottish businesses, I reiterate that the decisions we make in the coming weeks will be governed by two principles: first, that the national level playing field in Scotland shall remain; and, secondly, that the level playing field between Scotland and England shall also remain.", "EditedTextHTML": "The impact on individual businesses of this year's revaluation will depend on valuations still to be determined. However, in the interests of Scottish businesses, I reiterate that the decisions we make in the coming weeks will be governed by two principles: first, that the national level playing field in Scotland shall remain; and, secondly, that the level playing field between Scotland and England shall also remain.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C712571", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27112, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 352.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27113, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 353.0, "QuestionHeading": "Non-domestic Rates", "QuestionHeadingID": 27129, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 491.0, "DisplayOrder": 491.0, "ID": 27129, "ParentID": 27113 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 498.0, "ContributionID": 712571, "EditedText": "As I said, I can absolutely guarantee that the level playing field will remain and that businesses in Eastwood will be treated in exactly the same way as businesses in Basildon.", "EditedTextHTML": "As I said, I can absolutely guarantee that the level playing field will remain and that businesses in Eastwood will be treated in exactly the same way as businesses in Basildon.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C712579", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27132, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 514.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27133, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 515.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27134, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 516.0, "DisplayOrder": 516.0, "ID": 27134, "ParentID": 27133 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister (Donald Dewar): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 519.0, "ContributionID": 712579, "EditedText": "I thank Mr Salmond for his question. On this occasion, we discussed two quite different sets of matters. One was matters of mutual interest; the other was matters of common concern. Laughter.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank Mr Salmond for his question. On this occasion, we discussed two quite different sets of matters. One was matters of mutual interest; the other was matters of common concern. [Laughter.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C712583", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27132, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 514.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27133, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 515.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27134, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 516.0, "DisplayOrder": 516.0, "ID": 27134, "ParentID": 27133 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 527.0, "ContributionID": 712583, "EditedText": "I will take that point carefully, because I think it is important. There is no intention of introducing MacOsmotherly rules. There is a need to examine how committees operate and to ensure that they operate effectively and efficiently to the mutual advantage of both sides. That is beyond argument. We have made a great deal of ministerial time available—rightly—to responding to requests from committees. We have taken a remarkably open view on what documents can be released to committees, certainly in sharp distinction to some of the practices in other Parliaments in which I have served. The documentation on prison matters that went before the Justice and Home Affairs Committee on Tuesday was an example of that. I repeat: there is nothing wrong or unusual in it. I recognise that Mr Salmond has never been in government. It was a Scottish Executive discussion document about advice that would be given about the negotiations and discussions and about the practical arrangements to allow the proper running of the committee system. I repeat the fact that it was not a document that had reached ministerial level.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will take that point carefully, because I think it is important. There is no intention of introducing MacOsmotherly rules. There is a need to examine how committees operate and to ensure that they operate effectively and efficiently to the mutual advantage of both sides. That is beyond argument.

We have made a great deal of ministerial time available—rightly—to responding to requests from committees. We have taken a remarkably open view on what documents can be released to committees, certainly in sharp distinction to some of the practices in other Parliaments in which I have served. The documentation on prison matters that went before the Justice and Home Affairs Committee on Tuesday was an example of that.

I repeat: there is nothing wrong or unusual in it. I recognise that Mr Salmond has never been in government. It was a Scottish Executive discussion document about advice that would be given about the negotiations and discussions and about the practical arrangements to allow the proper running of the committee system. I repeat the fact that it was not a document that had reached ministerial level.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C712584", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27132, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 514.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27133, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 515.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27134, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 516.0, "DisplayOrder": 516.0, "ID": 27134, "ParentID": 27133 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 529.0, "ContributionID": 712584, "EditedText": "I am delighted to hear the First Minister distance himself from the contents of the document, particularly the part that said that there should be a week's notice of oral questions before a parliamentary committee. I am a bit puzzled. The document apparently says, on the MacOsmotherly rules, that, in the meantime, colleagues should proceed as if the rules had already been promulgated. If the document is not being implemented, why does it contain that statement?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am delighted to hear the First Minister distance himself from the contents of the document, particularly the part that said that there should be a week's notice of oral questions before a parliamentary committee.

I am a bit puzzled. The document apparently says, on the MacOsmotherly rules, that, in the meantime, colleagues should proceed as if the rules had already been promulgated. If the document is not being implemented, why does it contain that statement?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C712589", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27132, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 514.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27133, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 515.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27134, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 516.0, "DisplayOrder": 516.0, "ID": 27134, "ParentID": 27133 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 539.0, "ContributionID": 712589, "EditedText": "I got on with the secretary of state as well as I always do. Laughter. I built in the ambiguity in order to get a laugh. Laughter. As David McLetchie knows, he is one of my favourite straight men. As far as Mr McLetchie's question is concerned, I repeat that the secretary of state and I had a wide-ranging discussion. We will have many more of them. They are a valuable part of the liaison process between Westminster and Holyrood.", "EditedTextHTML": "I got on with the secretary of state as well as I always do. [Laughter.] I built in the ambiguity in order to get a laugh. [Laughter.] As David McLetchie knows, he is one of my favourite straight men.

As far as Mr McLetchie's question is concerned, I repeat that the secretary of state and I had a wide-ranging discussion. We will have many more of them. They are a valuable part of the liaison process between Westminster and Holyrood.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C712590", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27132, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 514.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27133, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 515.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27134, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 516.0, "DisplayOrder": 516.0, "ID": 27134, "ParentID": 27133 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 541.0, "ContributionID": 712590, "EditedText": "I am happy to be part of the new duo in the Scottish Parliament—Large and Large. Laughter. Will the First Minister tell the chamber whether he and the secretary of state discussed the implications for Scotland of the Chancellor of the Exchequer's announcement of a new hypothecated transport fund into which all extra increases in fuel duty will be paid? Will he commit the Scottish Executive to ensuring that the extra funds that come to Scotland, as a result of this new initiative and through the application of the Barnett formula, will be similarly ring-fenced and that they will apply to transport improvements in Scotland, so that our motorists get a fair deal for the taxes that they pay?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am happy to be part of the new duo in the Scottish Parliament—Large and Large. [Laughter.]

Will the First Minister tell the chamber whether he and the secretary of state discussed the implications for Scotland of the Chancellor of the Exchequer's announcement of a new hypothecated transport fund into which all extra increases in fuel duty will be paid? Will he commit the Scottish Executive to ensuring that the extra funds that come to Scotland, as a result of this new initiative and through the application of the Barnett formula, will be similarly ring-fenced and that they will apply to transport improvements in Scotland, so that our motorists get a fair deal for the taxes that they pay?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C712595", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27132, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 514.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27133, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 515.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27134, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 516.0, "DisplayOrder": 516.0, "ID": 27134, "ParentID": 27133 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 551.0, "ContributionID": 712595, "EditedText": "That might be described as a multifaceted question. I may not be able to answer it as fully as David McLetchie would like. We have certainly kept the options open, in particular on congestion charging to tackle traffic problems. Congestion is a major problem for the cities in the central belt and, indeed, in Aberdeen. Congestion charging is not a matter just of raising revenue; several factors have to be taken into account when we decide whether to go down that road. Those factors include: the support and willingness of the local authority concerned; the environmental impact and CO2 emissions from vehicles; and the essential matter of whether the measure would get cities moving and allow the necessary flow of traffic. It is important that we have the power to use such measures if that becomes necessary, but David McLetchie must not take that as some sort of threatening statement about the future or about any particular time scale. I repeat to him—and I hope that he will play fair on the matter—that what I said was about preserving our right to flexibility within the Scottish block, while making it very clear that we give a high priority to transport and the transport infrastructure.", "EditedTextHTML": "That might be described as a multifaceted question. I may not be able to answer it as fully as David McLetchie would like.

We have certainly kept the options open, in particular on congestion charging to tackle traffic problems. Congestion is a major problem for the cities in the central belt and, indeed, in Aberdeen. Congestion charging is not a matter just of raising revenue; several factors have to be taken into account when we decide whether to go down that road. Those factors include: the support and willingness of the local authority concerned; the environmental impact and CO2 emissions from vehicles; and the essential matter of whether the measure would get cities moving and allow the necessary flow of traffic.

It is important that we have the power to use such measures if that becomes necessary, but David McLetchie must not take that as some sort of threatening statement about the future or about any particular time scale. I repeat to him—and I hope that he will play fair on the matter—that what I said was about preserving our right to flexibility within the Scottish block, while making it very clear that we give a high priority to transport and the transport infrastructure.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2112E192P495C712598", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27132, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 514.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27133, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 515.0, "QuestionHeading": "Landfill", "QuestionHeadingID": 27135, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 557.0, "DisplayOrder": 557.0, "ID": 27135, "ParentID": 27133 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacAskill, Kenny", "ID": 2112, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenny MacAskill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "3. Mr Kenny MacAskill (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 558.0, "ContributionID": 712598, "EditedText": "rose—Interruption. Laughter.", "EditedTextHTML": "

rose—[Interruption.] [Laughter.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2112E192P495C712600", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27132, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 514.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27133, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 515.0, "QuestionHeading": "Landfill", "QuestionHeadingID": 27135, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 557.0, "DisplayOrder": 557.0, "ID": 27135, "ParentID": 27133 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacAskill, Kenny", "ID": 2112, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenny MacAskill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr MacAskill: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 562.0, "ContributionID": 712600, "EditedText": "I am grateful for this opportunity. I am tendering, with immediate effect, my resignation—as a bus convener of the tartan army. Laughter. I hope that on this occasion I have not overindulged your favour, Sir David. I will put my question to the minister. To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has to help Scottish local authorities switch from landfill as the main waste disposal option. (S1O688)", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful for this opportunity. I am tendering, with immediate effect, my resignation—as a bus convener of the tartan army. [Laughter.]

I hope that on this occasion I have not overindulged your favour, Sir David. I will put my question to the minister.

To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has to help Scottish local authorities switch from landfill as the main waste disposal option. (S1O688)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C712607", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27132, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 514.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27133, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 515.0, "QuestionHeading": "Landfill", "QuestionHeadingID": 27135, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 557.0, "DisplayOrder": 557.0, "ID": 27135, "ParentID": 27133 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 576.0, "ContributionID": 712607, "EditedText": "You are absolutely right that the supplementary questions should always follow the main question. Indeed, I so advised Fergus Ewing before we came into the chamber.", "EditedTextHTML": "You are absolutely right that the supplementary questions should always follow the main question. Indeed, I so advised Fergus Ewing before we came into the chamber.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C712608", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27132, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 514.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27133, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 515.0, "QuestionHeading": "Landfill", "QuestionHeadingID": 27135, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 557.0, "DisplayOrder": 557.0, "ID": 27135, "ParentID": 27133 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan (Falkirk West): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 578.0, "ContributionID": 712608, "EditedText": "On a point of order. Following the First Minister's comments about the Executive memorandum that suggested that members of this Parliament and its committees will have to give more advance notice and more details of their questions to ministers, and even risk having their questions to ministers blocked, can we have an assurance that any rules or procedures that affect the accountability of the Executive to this Parliament will be debated and approved by this Parliament, not cobbled together behind closed doors by clerks, civil servants and ministers?", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. Following the First Minister's comments about the Executive memorandum that suggested that members of this Parliament and its committees will have to give more advance notice and more details of their questions to ministers, and even risk having their questions to ministers blocked, can we have an assurance that any rules or procedures that affect the accountability of the Executive to this Parliament will be debated and approved by this Parliament, not cobbled together behind closed doors by clerks, civil servants and ministers?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C712609", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27132, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 514.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27133, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 515.0, "QuestionHeading": "Landfill", "QuestionHeadingID": 27135, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 557.0, "DisplayOrder": 557.0, "ID": 27135, "ParentID": 27133 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 580.0, "ContributionID": 712609, "EditedText": "That is not really a point of order; it is a dangerous extension of question time. Perhaps it would help the Parliament if I said that that is one of the matters of mutual concern that the First Minister and I have discussed. Any such procedural rules would be a matter for this Parliament as a whole to approve. I am sorry that questions and answers were so long today. We now turn, rather late, to the minister's statement on freedom of information.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is not really a point of order; it is a dangerous extension of question time. Perhaps it would help the Parliament if I said that that is one of the matters of mutual concern that the First Minister and I have discussed. Any such procedural rules would be a matter for this Parliament as a whole to approve.

I am sorry that questions and answers were so long today. We now turn, rather late, to the minister's statement on freedom of information.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C712617", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Freedom of Information", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27136, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 582.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 582.0, "ID": 27136, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 598.0, "ContributionID": 712617, "EditedText": "I am not sure whether, when referring to overarching, Mr Robson meant the ministerial certificate of exemption. I cannot think of any examples in practice when what he suggests would happen. It is important to say that when the Cabinet considered the matter, we did not have any particular examples in mind. I am sure that there will be occasions when—if Mr Robson is considering a lesser test—the test of substantial prejudice could be met, but nevertheless it may be felt that, in the public interest, the information should still be disclosed. It is invidious to start giving examples, because no doubt such matters will have to considered one by one. The point is that even if a public authority or ministers refuse an application, appeal to the commissioner will be available. With regard to Scottish Enterprise, in annexe A of the document there is a lengthy illustrative list of the bodies that are covered by it. Although Scottish Enterprise does not immediately leap out at me, I am certain that it is there.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am not sure whether, when referring to overarching, Mr Robson meant the ministerial certificate of exemption. I cannot think of any examples in practice when what he suggests would happen. It is important to say that when the Cabinet considered the matter, we did not have any particular examples in mind.

I am sure that there will be occasions when—if Mr Robson is considering a lesser test—the test of substantial prejudice could be met, but nevertheless it may be felt that, in the public interest, the information should still be disclosed. It is invidious to start giving examples, because no doubt such matters will have to considered one by one. The point is that even if a public authority or ministers refuse an application, appeal to the commissioner will be available.

With regard to Scottish Enterprise, in annexe A of the document there is a lengthy illustrative list of the bodies that are covered by it. Although Scottish Enterprise does not immediately leap out at me, I am certain that it is there.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1863E284P532C712612", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Freedom of Information", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27136, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 582.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 582.0, "ID": 27136, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Cunningham, Roseanna", "ID": 1863, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Perth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Roseanna Cunningham", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Roseanna Cunningham (Perth) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 588.0, "ContributionID": 712612, "EditedText": "I shall preface my remarks by saying something with my convener's hat on. It occurs to me that the Justice and Home Affairs Committee will probably now have to meet on both Christmas day and new year's day to cope with the work load that is coming our way. Laughter. In general, I welcome the move towards a freedom of information act in Scotland. I very much welcome the presumption of access and the inclusion of the public interest element of disclosure, which I believe is very important. I also welcome the Scottish information commissioner's right to order disclosure, although I would like the minister to define what he means by \"a rare event\" when he talks about the possibility of the Cabinet deciding collectively to override that order. A number of us have experience of how frequently a rare event can take place in practice and I would like some reassurance about that. The minister will be aware that not one but two freedom of information regimes will apply in Scotland because of the difference between the one that we will have here and the UK one. Does the Minister for Justice agree that there may be serious future difficulties, given Westminster's insistence on continuing to legislate on devolved areas? Will he indicate which regime will apply in situations such as the Home Office Asylum and Immigration Bill, which is a controversial example of mixed legislation?", "EditedTextHTML": "I shall preface my remarks by saying something with my convener's hat on. It occurs to me that the Justice and Home Affairs Committee will probably now have to meet on both Christmas day and new year's day to cope with the work load that is coming our way. [Laughter.]

In general, I welcome the move towards a freedom of information act in Scotland. I very much welcome the presumption of access and the inclusion of the public interest element of disclosure, which I believe is very important. I also welcome the Scottish information commissioner's right to order disclosure, although I would like the minister to define what he means by \"a rare event\" when he talks about the possibility of the Cabinet deciding collectively to override that order. A number of us have experience of how frequently a rare event can take place in practice and I would like some reassurance about that.

The minister will be aware that not one but two freedom of information regimes will apply in Scotland because of the difference between the one that we will have here and the UK one. Does the Minister for Justice agree that there may be serious future difficulties, given Westminster's insistence on continuing to legislate on devolved areas? Will he indicate which regime will apply in situations such as the Home Office Asylum and Immigration Bill, which is a controversial example of mixed legislation?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C712614", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Freedom of Information", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27136, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 582.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 582.0, "ID": 27136, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie (Lothians) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 592.0, "ContributionID": 712614, "EditedText": "I have a number of questions on the Deputy First Minister's statement and the principles of the proposed legislation. Why is it necessary? Is the minister aware of the code of practice established in 1994, updated in 1997 and updated again by his Administration—a code of practice that is recognised by freedom of information campaigners such as Maurice Frankel as stronger and more effective than the legislation proposed by the Home Secretary, Jack Straw? What is stopping the Scottish Executive publishing anything it wants to without such legislation? Will the Deputy First Minister give us an example of information that it will publish in the future that is at present suppressed by the Executive? As the Deputy First Minister said in his statement, the real test of freedom of information legislation lies not in the principle but in the exemptions, because if they are too widely drawn, the principle is undermined and not worth the paper it is written on. I ask him to comment on two examples that have come before the Parliament. There was considerable controversy about the decision by his colleague the Minister for Health and Community Care on the location of the paediatric cardiac surgery unit, and many people called for the information that informed that decision to be published. Will such information be available under the new regime, or will it be covered by an exemption? Secondly, a more recent example is that members of the Education, Culture and Sport Committee asked a number of questions of the Deputy Minister for Culture and Sport, Rhona Brankin, on the financial problems involving Scottish Opera and the Hampden project. That information was withheld from committee members. Can the Deputy First Minister tell us whether, under his freedom of information legislation, that information would be made available to the committee, or would it be covered by an exemption? Those matters are fundamental to the effectiveness of the regime. I should be grateful for the Deputy First Minister's comments.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have a number of questions on the Deputy First Minister's statement and the principles of the proposed legislation. Why is it necessary? Is the minister aware of the code of practice established in 1994, updated in 1997 and updated again by his Administration—a code of practice that is recognised by freedom of information campaigners such as Maurice Frankel as stronger and more effective than the legislation proposed by the Home Secretary, Jack Straw?

What is stopping the Scottish Executive publishing anything it wants to without such legislation? Will the Deputy First Minister give us an example of information that it will publish in the future that is at present suppressed by the Executive?

As the Deputy First Minister said in his statement, the real test of freedom of information legislation lies not in the principle but in the exemptions, because if they are too widely drawn, the principle is undermined and not worth the paper it is written on. I ask him to comment on two examples that have come before the Parliament. There was considerable controversy about the decision by his colleague the Minister for Health and Community Care on the location of the paediatric cardiac surgery unit, and many people called for the information that informed that decision to be published. Will such information be available under the new regime, or will it be covered by an exemption?

Secondly, a more recent example is that members of the Education, Culture and Sport Committee asked a number of questions of the Deputy Minister for Culture and Sport, Rhona Brankin, on the financial problems involving

Scottish Opera and the Hampden project. That information was withheld from committee members. Can the Deputy First Minister tell us whether, under his freedom of information legislation, that information would be made available to the committee, or would it be covered by an exemption?

Those matters are fundamental to the effectiveness of the regime. I should be grateful for the Deputy First Minister's comments.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C712624", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Freedom of Information", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27136, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 582.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 582.0, "ID": 27136, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan (Glasgow) (SSP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 612.0, "ContributionID": 712624, "EditedText": "Like previous speakers, I welcome the statement, which is in contrast to Jack Straw's backward and illiberal proposals. Will the minister respond to a couple of points? First, will he indicate whether he intends to accept the recommendation of the Macpherson inquiry that all activities of the police, not just the administrative functions, should be open to public scrutiny? A number of individuals have sought guidelines on the use of CS spray, for example, and have been told that because it is an operational matter, they are not entitled to that information. It is difficult to prove that CS spray has not been used properly if the guidelines for its use are not published. Secondly, can the minister confirm that there will be no gagging order as a condition for the release of information—in other words, that public bodies will not be able to make the release of information conditional on its not being used publicly or in any other way? Thirdly, the powers of the Scottish commissioner sound great, but I was rather upset by what the minister said about the varying of charges. Does that mean that the Executive intends to impose a general charge across the board? If it became difficult for individuals to get information because of prohibitive charges, that would be inconsistent with a genuine freedom of information act. My final point relates to response times. The minister referred to overseas experience, and he will be aware that in places such as New Zealand and America, the response time is 20 days. There was talk of the response time here being 40 days, which is not the practice in any other country. Can he give an indication of what the response time will be?", "EditedTextHTML": "Like previous speakers, I welcome the statement, which is in contrast to Jack Straw's backward and illiberal proposals.

Will the minister respond to a couple of points? First, will he indicate whether he intends to accept the recommendation of the Macpherson inquiry that all activities of the police, not just the administrative functions, should be open to public scrutiny? A number of individuals have sought guidelines on the use of CS spray, for example, and have been told that because it is an operational matter, they are not entitled to that information. It is difficult to prove that CS spray has not been used properly if the guidelines for its use are not published.

Secondly, can the minister confirm that there will be no gagging order as a condition for the release of information—in other words, that public bodies will not be able to make the release of information conditional on its not being used publicly or in any other way?

Thirdly, the powers of the Scottish commissioner sound great, but I was rather upset by what the minister said about the varying of charges. Does that mean that the Executive intends to impose a general charge across the board? If it became difficult for individuals to get information because of prohibitive charges, that would be inconsistent with a genuine freedom of information act.

My final point relates to response times. The minister referred to overseas experience, and he will be aware that in places such as New Zealand and America, the response time is 20 days. There was talk of the response time here being 40 days, which is not the practice in any other country. Can he give an indication of what the response time will be?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C712625", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Freedom of Information", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27136, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 582.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 582.0, "ID": 27136, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 614.0, "ContributionID": 712625, "EditedText": "I can indicate to Mr Sheridan that the expected response time would be 20 days. If it were not possible to collate the information within 20 days, the applicant would be expected to be informed of that within 20 days. I can assure Mr Sheridan that no gagging order will be placed on the release of information. When information has been released, it will be up to the person or body that receives it to do what they want with it. Mr Sheridan's question about the police and the Macpherson report into the Stephen Lawrence case is very important. Again, we have sought to strike the right balance in that area. Information held by the police will be covered by the freedom of information regime, with a combination of class- based and content-based exemptions. When a matter is content-based, it will be subject to the harm test of substantial prejudice for withholding information. The inquiry report recommendation was that all information should be subject to a harm test. We do not believe that that would be the best way of handling information that related to sensitive criminal prosecutions. However, I can reassure Mr Sheridan that public authorities would be required to consider the public interest in disclosure. In any event, an appeal against nondisclosure could be submitted to the Scottish information commissioner. Mr Sheridan also asked an important question about charging. That matter is addressed in one section of the consultation paper, which puts forward a number of options. I share the member's view that we do not want to nullify access to information by putting prohibitive charges on it. At present, if the cost of gathering information is less than £100, it is provided free. People have to pay if the cost is more than £100—if it was £150, for example, they would pay £50. That is one of the options set out in the paper. We would welcome informed and constructive comment on that during the consultation period.", "EditedTextHTML": "I can indicate to Mr Sheridan that the expected response time would be 20 days. If it were not possible to collate the information within 20 days, the applicant would be expected to be informed of that within 20 days.

I can assure Mr Sheridan that no gagging order will be placed on the release of information. When

information has been released, it will be up to the person or body that receives it to do what they want with it.

Mr Sheridan's question about the police and the Macpherson report into the Stephen Lawrence case is very important. Again, we have sought to strike the right balance in that area. Information held by the police will be covered by the freedom of information regime, with a combination of class- based and content-based exemptions. When a matter is content-based, it will be subject to the harm test of substantial prejudice for withholding information. The inquiry report recommendation was that all information should be subject to a harm test. We do not believe that that would be the best way of handling information that related to sensitive criminal prosecutions. However, I can reassure Mr Sheridan that public authorities would be required to consider the public interest in disclosure. In any event, an appeal against nondisclosure could be submitted to the Scottish information commissioner.

Mr Sheridan also asked an important question about charging. That matter is addressed in one section of the consultation paper, which puts forward a number of options. I share the member's view that we do not want to nullify access to information by putting prohibitive charges on it. At present, if the cost of gathering information is less than £100, it is provided free. People have to pay if the cost is more than £100—if it was £150, for example, they would pay £50. That is one of the options set out in the paper. We would welcome informed and constructive comment on that during the consultation period.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C712626", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Freedom of Information", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27136, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 582.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 582.0, "ID": 27136, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 616.0, "ContributionID": 712626, "EditedText": "That concludes questions on the statement on freedom of information.", "EditedTextHTML": "That concludes questions on the statement on freedom of information.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1769E16P282C712639", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Carers Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27137, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 622.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 622.0, "ID": 27137, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Smith, Elaine", "ID": 1769, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Coatbridge and Chryston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Smith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Elaine Smith (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 648.0, "ContributionID": 712639, "EditedText": "Does the member for Airdrie and Shotts agree that the doubled allocation of resources for the provision of carers services, including respite care, displays the Executive's commitment to carers issues? Will she further acknowledge that the announcement of the requirement to consult carers groups in developing local service plans and to seek confirmation from those groups that resources have been spent appropriately will ensure that the Executive's strategy is delivered at local level?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the member for Airdrie and Shotts agree that the doubled allocation of resources for the provision of carers services, including respite care, displays the Executive's commitment to carers issues? Will she further acknowledge that the announcement of the requirement to consult carers groups in developing local service plans and to seek confirmation from those groups that resources have been spent appropriately will ensure that the Executive's strategy is delivered at local level?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C712647", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Carers Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27137, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 622.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 622.0, "ID": 27137, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 668.0, "ContributionID": 712647, "EditedText": "Thank you. I understand the point of order.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you. I understand the point of order.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C712658", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Carers Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27137, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 622.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 622.0, "ID": 27137, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 694.0, "ContributionID": 712658, "EditedText": "Perhaps this is the appropriate point at which to address the SNP amendment. Amendments such as the one that has been moved today are dishonest and disingenuous. In every debate, we hear the cry for more money. We hear it for roads, for schools, for students, for buses, for farmers, for agriculture and for the countryside.", "EditedTextHTML": "Perhaps this is the appropriate point at which to address the SNP amendment. Amendments such as the one that has been moved today are dishonest and disingenuous. In every debate, we hear the cry for more money. We hear it for roads, for schools, for students, for buses, for farmers, for agriculture and for the countryside.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1811E172P455C712659", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Carers Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27137, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 622.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 622.0, "ID": 27137, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ullrich, Kay", "ID": 1811, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kay Ullrich", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Kay Ullrich: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 696.0, "ContributionID": 712659, "EditedText": "Will Susan Deacon give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Susan Deacon give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C712649", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Carers Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27137, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 622.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 622.0, "ID": 27137, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan (Glasgow) (SSP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 673.0, "ContributionID": 712649, "EditedText": "On a point of order. It has been the practice for the Presiding Officer to indicate the number of members who wanted to speak in the debate but were unsuccessful. Will you say how many members were not allowed to speak in this debate?", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. It has been the practice for the Presiding Officer to indicate the number of members who wanted to speak in the debate but were unsuccessful. Will you say how many members were not allowed to speak in this debate?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C712651", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Carers Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27137, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 622.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 622.0, "ID": 27137, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 677.0, "ContributionID": 712651, "EditedText": "Thank you.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712684", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27138, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 704.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 704.0, "ID": 27138, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 740.0, "ContributionID": 712684, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C712652", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Carers Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27137, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 622.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 622.0, "ID": 27137, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 680.0, "ContributionID": 712652, "EditedText": "Much of what I wanted to say has been said. I am delighted that there is such consensus on this issue. I would like to think that, whether in a small or in a more committed way, all of us in and outside this chamber are carers who have a commitment to care for people, be they family members or others. I welcome the Executive's commitment in its programme for government to introduce a carers strategy. Conservative members will certainly support the motion. We welcome the consultation with local carers organisations, the monitoring of services, the carers legislation working group, community care plans, the census question, the national standards and the commitment to better- targeted information. It is difficult to put those elements in any sort of order, but perhaps the most important is the question on carers in the 2001 census, as we do not have the information on which to base and target our support and advice for carers. I welcome the fact that we will gain more information in the 2001 census. I read the document that Iain Gray issued yesterday. I found the last sentence the most exciting. It promised: \"A second pension for carers . . . and the protection of pension entitlements of carers who have given up paid work to care.\" Yes, I really liked that and got quite excited about it, until I read the date—2050. If my relative Dennis Canavan thought it rather odd that it should take 20 years to eradicate child poverty, I wonder how he would feel about the fact that it will take 50 years to fulfil that commitment of a second pension. That commitment was outlined in the Queen's speech last week and is in the Carers National Association Scotland strategy. I would like to hear the thoughts of the carers in the gallery today, who proposed the second pension to this listening Executive, on the 50-year phasing-in period. Although we welcome the commitment, I thought that it warranted a reality check, so I looked up the Highland carers strategy, \"Working Together to Make a Difference\"—I shall briefly mention some of the points that it made. In Lochaber, there is no specialised nursing care for people with dementia and there is a crying need for more family-based carers for children. In Easter Ross, it has been suggested that there should be care managers in general practitioners' surgeries and that GPs and district nurses should play a greater role in caring. In Nairn, people feel frustrated by the fact that they have repeatedly expressed their needs but no action has resulted. I know that this has already been mentioned, but the working partnership between social work departments and the national health service is nothing short of a national scandal. In reply to Kay Ullrich's question last week, we were told that more than 2,000 patients were blocking beds in Scotland, receiving inappropriate treatment and preventing others who were in need of treatment from gaining access to hospitals. I ask the minister to consider putting some of this money towards the services in the NHS that people really need. Adam Ingram's point about mental illness is one that I have been made aware of by carers. They say that, because of the lack of information, they cannot adequately understand, support and give the appropriate care to the mentally ill. I appreciate that there must be patient confidentiality, but the issue must be re-examined to take account of the needs and problems of carers. Finally, I want to mention a submission from one of my constituents, who said of a local day centre that \"the staff are not trained and are often on a ‘New Deal' job opportunity or even Community Service! This does not inspire confidence in the system—particularly where vulnerable, mentally-handicapped adults are in their care without supervision.\"", "EditedTextHTML": "Much of what I wanted to say has been said. I am delighted that there is such consensus on this issue. I would like to think that, whether in a small or in a more committed way, all of us in and outside this chamber are carers who have a commitment to care for people, be they family members or others.

I welcome the Executive's commitment in its programme for government to introduce a carers strategy. Conservative members will certainly support the motion. We welcome the consultation with local carers organisations, the monitoring of services, the carers legislation working group, community care plans, the census question, the national standards and the commitment to better- targeted information.

It is difficult to put those elements in any sort of order, but perhaps the most important is the question on carers in the 2001 census, as we do not have the information on which to base and target our support and advice for carers. I welcome the fact that we will gain more information in the 2001 census.

I read the document that Iain Gray issued yesterday. I found the last sentence the most exciting. It promised:

\"A second pension for carers . . . and the protection of pension entitlements of carers who have given up paid work to care.\"

Yes, I really liked that and got quite excited about it, until I read the date—2050. If my relative Dennis Canavan thought it rather odd that it should take 20 years to eradicate child poverty, I wonder how he would feel about the fact that it will take 50 years to fulfil that commitment of a second pension. That commitment was outlined in the Queen's speech last week and is in the Carers National Association Scotland strategy. I would like to hear the thoughts of the carers in the gallery today, who proposed the second pension to this listening Executive, on the 50-year phasing-in period.

Although we welcome the commitment, I thought that it warranted a reality check, so I looked up the Highland carers strategy, \"Working Together to Make a Difference\"—I shall briefly mention some of the points that it made. In Lochaber, there is no specialised nursing care for people with dementia and there is a crying need for more family-based carers for children. In Easter Ross, it has been suggested that there should be care managers in general practitioners' surgeries and that GPs and district nurses should play a greater role in caring. In Nairn, people feel frustrated by the fact that they have repeatedly expressed their needs but no action has resulted.

I know that this has already been mentioned, but the working partnership between social work departments and the national health service is nothing short of a national scandal. In reply to Kay Ullrich's question last week, we were told that more than 2,000 patients were blocking beds in Scotland, receiving inappropriate treatment and preventing others who were in need of treatment from gaining access to hospitals. I ask the minister to consider putting some of this money towards the services in the NHS that people really need.

Adam Ingram's point about mental illness is one that I have been made aware of by carers. They say that, because of the lack of information, they cannot adequately understand, support and give the appropriate care to the mentally ill. I appreciate that there must be patient confidentiality, but the issue must be re-examined to take account of the needs and problems of carers.

Finally, I want to mention a submission from one of my constituents, who said of a local day centre that

\"the staff are not trained and are often on a ‘New Deal' job opportunity or even Community Service! This does not inspire confidence in the system—particularly where vulnerable, mentally-handicapped adults are in their care without supervision.\"

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1985E207P501C712653", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Carers Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27137, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 622.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 622.0, "ID": 27137, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hamilton, Mr Duncan", "ID": 1985, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Duncan Hamilton (Highlands and Islands) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 683.0, "ContributionID": 712653, "EditedText": "I welcome the tone and substance of this debate. Members from all parts of the chamber have made good speeches. I am sure that the Minister for Health and Community Care will have much to say in response to Robert Brown's point about local authorities, to Adam Ingram's point about mental health and to some of the points that Mary Scanlon has just raised. It will also be interesting to hear her response to Kay Ullrich's question about the representations that have been made to the UK Government to put the subject in the wider context of the Sutherland report and the invalid care allowance. Let me knock on the head the suggestion that the funding announced today is extra money. We welcome what has been announced and we welcome the shuffling of resources, as targeting is very useful. Let us not pretend, however, that this money has not already been announced or that it is not part of the underspend from the previous year.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the tone and substance of this debate. Members from all parts of the chamber have made good speeches. I am sure that the Minister for Health and Community Care will have much to say in response to Robert Brown's point about local authorities, to Adam Ingram's point about mental health and to some of the points that Mary Scanlon has just raised. It will also be interesting to hear her response to Kay Ullrich's question about the representations that have been made to the UK Government to put the subject in the wider context of the Sutherland report and the invalid care allowance.

Let me knock on the head the suggestion that the funding announced today is extra money. We welcome what has been announced and we welcome the shuffling of resources, as targeting is very useful. Let us not pretend, however, that this money has not already been announced or that it is not part of the underspend from the previous year.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712693", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Kintyre Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27139, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 752.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 752.0, "ID": 27139, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 755.0, "ContributionID": 712693, "EditedText": "Motion debated,", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion debated,

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1811E172P455C712657", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Carers Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27137, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 622.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 622.0, "ID": 27137, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ullrich, Kay", "ID": 1811, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kay Ullrich", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Kay Ullrich: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 692.0, "ContributionID": 712657, "EditedText": "When the minister met representatives of local authorities, did they assure her that they were receiving adequate funding to provide community care services?", "EditedTextHTML": "When the minister met representatives of local authorities, did they assure her that they were receiving adequate funding to provide community care services?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C712662", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Carers Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27137, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 622.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 622.0, "ID": 27137, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 702.0, "ContributionID": 712662, "EditedText": "I do not have time.I could accept the Conservative spokesperson's lectures about the time that it takes to deliver if that party had not failed miserably to deliver on this agenda in its 18 years in government. We want to build on the strong collective traditions that survived those 18 years and on which so much that is good about Scotland has been built. We live in a modern era. We need modern government and modern politics. Therefore, our debates have to be rooted in statistics and strategy. Of course we have to set targets and timetables, but we must remember that politics is not just about numbers; it is about people. I hope that in the Scotland of the future, the defining characteristic of government, of public services and of our communities will be our capacity to care for all our people. Compassion and concern must rank alongside enterprise and achievement as the hallmarks of our new Scotland. A successful Scotland will be a caring Scotland. I ask all members to join me today in sending a clear message that Scotland's Parliament cares and that it cares about carers.", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not have time.

I could accept the Conservative spokesperson's lectures about the time that it takes to deliver if that party had not failed miserably to deliver on this agenda in its 18 years in government. We

want to build on the strong collective traditions that survived those 18 years and on which so much that is good about Scotland has been built.

We live in a modern era. We need modern government and modern politics. Therefore, our debates have to be rooted in statistics and strategy. Of course we have to set targets and timetables, but we must remember that politics is not just about numbers; it is about people. I hope that in the Scotland of the future, the defining characteristic of government, of public services and of our communities will be our capacity to care for all our people.

Compassion and concern must rank alongside enterprise and achievement as the hallmarks of our new Scotland. A successful Scotland will be a caring Scotland. I ask all members to join me today in sending a clear message that Scotland's Parliament cares and that it cares about carers.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C712663", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27138, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 704.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 704.0, "ID": 27138, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 706.0, "ContributionID": 712663, "EditedText": "We now come to decision time. The first question is, that amendment S1M-316.1, in the name of Mr Jim Wallace, which seeks to amend motion S1M-316, in the name of Phil Gallie, on law and order, be agreed to. Are we agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "We now come to decision time. The first question is, that amendment S1M-316.1, in the name of Mr Jim Wallace, which seeks to amend motion S1M-316, in the name of Phil Gallie, on law and order, be agreed to. Are we agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712664", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27138, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 704.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 704.0, "ID": 27138, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 708.0, "ContributionID": 712664, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712666", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27138, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 704.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 704.0, "ID": 27138, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 712.0, "ContributionID": 712666, "EditedText": "FOR Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)AGAINST Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)ABSTENTIONS Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)

AGAINST

Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)

ABSTENTIONS

Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C712675", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27138, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 704.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 704.0, "ID": 27138, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 726.0, "ContributionID": 712675, "EditedText": "The third question is, that motion S1M-316, in the name of Phil Gallie, on law and order, as amended by amendment S1M-316.1, in the name of Mr Jim Wallace, be agreed to. Are we agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "The third question is, that motion S1M-316, in the name of Phil Gallie, on law and order, as amended by amendment S1M-316.1, in the name of Mr Jim Wallace, be agreed to. Are we agreed?

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" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712678", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27138, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 704.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 704.0, "ID": 27138, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 732.0, "ContributionID": 712678, "EditedText": "FOR Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)AGAINST Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)ABSTENTIONS Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)

AGAINST

Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)

ABSTENTIONS

Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712680", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27138, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 704.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 704.0, "ID": 27138, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 735.0, "ContributionID": 712680, "EditedText": "Motion, as amended, agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion, as amended, agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C712683", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27138, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 704.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 704.0, "ID": 27138, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 738.0, "ContributionID": 712683, "EditedText": "The fourth question is, that amendment S1M-317.1, in the name of Mr Alex Salmond, which seeks to amend motion S1M-317, in the name of Iain Gray, on the Executive's commitment to the introduction of a carers strategy, be agreed to. Are we agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "The fourth question is, that amendment S1M-317.1, in the name of Mr Alex Salmond, which seeks to amend motion S1M-317, in the name of Iain Gray, on the Executive's commitment to the introduction of a carers strategy, be agreed to. Are we agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712686", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27138, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 704.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 704.0, "ID": 27138, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 744.0, "ContributionID": 712686, "EditedText": "FOR Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP) Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)AGAINST Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)

AGAINST

Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712690", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27138, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 704.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 704.0, "ID": 27138, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 750.0, "ContributionID": 712690, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712691", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27138, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 704.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 704.0, "ID": 27138, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 751.0, "ContributionID": 712691, "EditedText": "That the Parliament welcomes the Executive's commitment in its Programme for Government to introduce a Carers' Strategy for Scotland to assist unpaid carers, and approves the Executive's proposals for that strategy.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament welcomes the Executive's commitment in its Programme for Government to introduce a Carers' Strategy for Scotland to assist unpaid carers, and approves the Executive's proposals for that strategy.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712694", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Kintyre Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27139, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 752.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 752.0, "ID": 27139, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 756.0, "ContributionID": 712694, "EditedText": "That the Parliament notes the severe problems facing the Kintyre economy as it faces the combination of a downturn in all its primary industries, a drop in tourist numbers in the last two years and the threat of Sea Containers pulling out of the Campbeltown-Ballycastle ferry service, and calls for co-ordinated and effective action to ensure that the ferry crossing remains and that the necessary investments are made to safeguard the long term viability of Kintyre's communities.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament notes the severe problems facing the Kintyre economy as it faces the combination of a downturn in all its primary industries, a drop in tourist numbers in the last two years and the threat of Sea Containers pulling out of the Campbeltown-Ballycastle ferry service, and calls for co-ordinated and effective action to ensure that the ferry crossing remains and that the necessary investments are made to safeguard the long term viability of Kintyre's communities.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1889E118P162C712706", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Kintyre Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27139, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 752.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 752.0, "ID": 27139, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morrison, Mr Alasdair", "ID": 1889, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Western Isles" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morrison", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Highlands and Islands and Gaelic (Mr Alasdair Morrison): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 785.0, "ContributionID": 712706, "EditedText": "Presiding Officer, may I just confirm that I have seven minutes?", "EditedTextHTML": "Presiding Officer, may I just confirm that I have seven minutes?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1985E207P501C712709", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Kintyre Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27139, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 752.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 752.0, "ID": 27139, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hamilton, Mr Duncan", "ID": 1985, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Hamilton: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 791.0, "ContributionID": 712709, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1889E118P162C712710", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Kintyre Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27139, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 752.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 752.0, "ID": 27139, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morrison, Mr Alasdair", "ID": 1889, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Western Isles" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morrison", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Morrison: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 793.0, "ContributionID": 712710, "EditedText": "I am keen to address a number of points that have been raised, Duncan, and I want to make some progress. By providing the necessary assistance to companies, AIE is helping to ensure that companies stay in Kintyre and develop successfully. Mr Lyon will be aware that, last year, Jaeger confirmed its commitment to the area by investing £2 million to modernise its production methods, with assistance of £570,000 from AIE and AIE's European research and development fund. The investment will upgrade machinery and provide for further training and staff development. That substantial investment from a major local employer in Kintyre is extremely welcome news, particularly for the 230 employees at the company's Campbeltown factory. Another Campbeltown company that has received significant assistance from AIE is Argyll Bakeries Ltd, which has been trading in the area for the past 20 years. The LEC leased purpose- built premises at Snipefield industrial estate in Campbeltown to the company. I hope that I have pronounced Snipefield correctly; otherwise, Fergus will correct me as I corrected him in a previous debate. The company has invested £200,000 and has received assistance worth £54,000 from AIE to develop the business. That is another example of the LEC providing significant assistance to help to secure the future of local business in Kintyre. I do not intend to go through a list of companies that have received AIE assistance, although that list goes beyond the two examples that I have mentioned. However, it is important to acknowledge that much effort has gone into developing the local economy. A major problem for Kintyre, and indeed for my own Western Isles constituency, is the narrow base of the local economy, which results in overdependence on certain industries and businesses. AIE is investigating how the area's economic base can be broadened by encouraging new businesses and industries into Kintyre. On Tuesday, the Minister for Transport and the Environment, Sarah Boyack, met with a Danish company, Vestas, which is considering locating a wind-turbine manufacturing facility at the RAF base at Machrihanish. That presents a significant new economic opportunity for Kintyre that I hope will come to fruition. Both the Executive and the enterprise network will be doing all they can to assist the project to locate in Kintyre, which I hope all members will welcome. Furthermore, we are addressing the future of tourism in Kintyre and considering how to capitalise on the considerable scope for improving the role of tourism to the local economy. The Kintyre tourism management programme is providing assistance for the development of the tourism industry in the area. The initiative intends to undertake a variety of approaches such as improving marketing and targeting niche markets such as golf and wildlife watching.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am keen to address a number of points that have been raised, Duncan, and I want to make some progress.

By providing the necessary assistance to companies, AIE is helping to ensure that companies stay in Kintyre and develop successfully.

Mr Lyon will be aware that, last year, Jaeger confirmed its commitment to the area by investing £2 million to modernise its production methods, with assistance of £570,000 from AIE and AIE's European research and development fund. The investment will upgrade machinery and provide for further training and staff development. That substantial investment from a major local employer in Kintyre is extremely welcome news, particularly for the 230 employees at the company's Campbeltown factory.

Another Campbeltown company that has received significant assistance from AIE is Argyll Bakeries Ltd, which has been trading in the area for the past 20 years. The LEC leased purpose- built premises at Snipefield industrial estate in Campbeltown to the company. I hope that I have pronounced Snipefield correctly; otherwise, Fergus will correct me as I corrected him in a previous debate. The company has invested £200,000 and has received assistance worth £54,000 from AIE to develop the business. That is another example of the LEC providing significant assistance to help to secure the future of local business in Kintyre.

I do not intend to go through a list of companies that have received AIE assistance, although that list goes beyond the two examples that I have mentioned. However, it is important to acknowledge that much effort has gone into developing the local economy.

A major problem for Kintyre, and indeed for my own Western Isles constituency, is the narrow base of the local economy, which results in overdependence on certain industries and businesses. AIE is investigating how the area's economic base can be broadened by encouraging new businesses and industries into Kintyre. On Tuesday, the Minister for Transport and the Environment, Sarah Boyack, met with a Danish company, Vestas, which is considering locating a wind-turbine manufacturing facility at the RAF base at Machrihanish. That presents a significant new economic opportunity for Kintyre that I hope will come to fruition. Both the Executive and the enterprise network will be doing all they can to assist the project to locate in Kintyre, which I hope all members will welcome.

Furthermore, we are addressing the future of tourism in Kintyre and considering how to capitalise on the considerable scope for improving the role of tourism to the local economy. The Kintyre tourism management programme is providing assistance for the development of the tourism industry in the area. The initiative intends to undertake a variety of approaches such as improving marketing and targeting niche markets such as golf and wildlife watching.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1985E207P501C712711", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Kintyre Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27139, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 752.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 752.0, "ID": 27139, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hamilton, Mr Duncan", "ID": 1985, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Hamilton: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 795.0, "ContributionID": 712711, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C712717", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Kintyre Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27139, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 752.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 752.0, "ID": 27139, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 807.0, "ContributionID": 712717, "EditedText": "That concludes the debate on the Kintyre economy.", "EditedTextHTML": "That concludes the debate on the Kintyre economy.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2110E214P424C712355", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gibson, Kenneth", "ID": 2110, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenneth Gibson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Kenneth Gibson (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 44.0, "ContributionID": 712355, "EditedText": "Mr Wallace said that nearly all police forces in Scotland were recruiting. Can he advise us which are not?", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Wallace said that nearly all police forces in Scotland were recruiting. Can he advise us which are not?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:17:36.376716+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2110E214P424C712397", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gibson, Kenneth", "ID": 2110, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenneth Gibson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Kenneth Gibson (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 132.0, "ContributionID": 712397, "EditedText": "If Pauline McNeill had read what Mr Orr had written, she would realise that the number of crimes in Strathclyde rose last year by 4 per cent, to 220,576.", "EditedTextHTML": "If Pauline McNeill had read what Mr Orr had written, she would realise that the number of crimes in Strathclyde rose last year by 4 per cent, to 220,576.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:18:48.0221515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2110E214P424C712403", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gibson, Kenneth", "ID": 2110, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenneth Gibson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Gibson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 144.0, "ContributionID": 712403, "EditedText": "I will give way if the Presiding Officer will give me additional time to finish my speech.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will give way if the Presiding Officer will give me additional time to finish my speech.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:18:48.0377751+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C712539", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27112, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 352.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27113, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 353.0, "QuestionHeading": "Enterprise Policy", "QuestionHeadingID": 27122, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 426.0, "DisplayOrder": 426.0, "ID": 27122, "ParentID": 27113 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "10. Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 427.0, "ContributionID": 712539, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what consultation it had with the Chancellor of the Exchequer on enterprise policy proposals in advance of the publication of the pre-budget statement. (S1O676)", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what consultation it had with the Chancellor of the Exchequer on enterprise policy proposals in advance of the publication of the pre-budget statement. (S1O676)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:22:26.8814208+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2110E214P424C712469", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gibson, Kenneth", "ID": 2110, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenneth Gibson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Gibson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 294.0, "ContributionID": 712469, "EditedText": "Does the minister accept that, although capital allocations have been increased for this financial year, next year's projection for Strathclyde is of a £2.2 million reduction? Strathclyde has identified a need of £19.014 million, and the capital allocation is £7.76 million— less than half of what the police require. Furthermore—I see that the minister is wincing. That is all.", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the minister accept that, although capital allocations have been increased for this financial year, next year's projection for Strathclyde is of a £2.2 million reduction? Strathclyde has identified a need of £19.014 million, and the capital allocation is £7.76 million— less than half of what the police require.

Furthermore—

I see that the minister is wincing. That is all.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:21:23.9742649+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C712696", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Kintyre Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27139, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 752.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 752.0, "ID": 27139, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fergus Ewing (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 760.0, "ContributionID": 712696, "EditedText": "With regard to the impact of high petrol prices in extreme rural areas, Ian Robertson suggested that the revenue that has been raised from those areas in fuel duty should be invested in those areas. Does the Liberal party support that suggestion?", "EditedTextHTML": "With regard to the impact of high petrol prices in extreme rural areas, Ian Robertson suggested that the revenue that has been raised from those areas in fuel duty should be invested in those areas. Does the Liberal party support that suggestion?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:01:03.9549326+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2133E222P520C712373", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Matheson, Michael", "ID": 2133, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Matheson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Matheson (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 81.0, "ContributionID": 712373, "EditedText": "I welcome the opportunity to consider crime and the Scottish criminal justice system. We all recognise that the criminal justice system has come under considerable scrutiny in recent weeks, in relation to policing levels, Scottish Prison Service closures and the implications of the European convention on human rights. The Conservative motion contains an implied criticism of the European convention on human rights. I was not too sure whether Phil Gallie, in his reply to Angus MacKay, said that he welcomed the incorporation of the European convention on human rights into our criminal justice system, or whether he is happy just to refer to it.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the opportunity to consider crime and the Scottish criminal justice system.

We all recognise that the criminal justice system has come under considerable scrutiny in recent weeks, in relation to policing levels, Scottish Prison Service closures and the implications of the European convention on human rights.

The Conservative motion contains an implied criticism of the European convention on human rights. I was not too sure whether Phil Gallie, in his reply to Angus MacKay, said that he welcomed the incorporation of the European convention on human rights into our criminal justice system, or whether he is happy just to refer to it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:31.1569345+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2133E222P520C712377", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Matheson, Michael", "ID": 2133, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Matheson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Matheson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 89.0, "ContributionID": 712377, "EditedText": "My primary concern about the Executive's action relates to whether there is appropriate medium to long-term thinking behind it. There are major questions to be asked.", "EditedTextHTML": "My primary concern about the Executive's action relates to whether there is appropriate medium to long-term thinking behind it. There are major questions to be asked.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:31.1569345+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2180E179P471C712424", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lochhead, Richard", "ID": 2180, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Lochhead", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Richard Lochhead (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 191.0, "ContributionID": 712424, "EditedText": "I welcome this debate. From the election campaign for this Parliament, we all remember the feeling expressed on doorsteps throughout the country about law and order. For instance, when I was campaigning in Aberdeen, I met an elderly lady whose house had been broken into three times in a year. That woman now lives a life of fear, and we must keep people like her at the forefront of our minds when we are debating this subject. Crime and police levels are not just an urban issue; they are a rural issue. I was surprised that Jim Wallace said, when defending the closure of Penninghame open prison, that it was remote from the central belt. Perhaps when he is in the chamber he can explain what he meant by that. There is a widespread belief throughout our rural communities that police levels are declining and crime levels are increasing. However, the Executive's amendment says that one of its objectives is \"to encourage stronger links between the police and the communities in which they operate\". That is commendable but, in many of our rural areas, the police stations have been closed over the past decade. As Colin Campbell quite rightly said, one reason for that is the lack of funds and the enforced sell-off of the family silver. The wellkent village bobby really is becoming a thing of the past, and we are losing all the benefits of the informal policing that the village bobby could use to defuse volatile situations. That simply does not happen any more. Rural crime is compounded by the physical and social isolation of our rural communities, and police response times are lengthy. Every time there are cuts it seems to be the rural police stations that are first to go. A couple of years ago, I was given a tour by Grampian police in a rural area in the north-east, whose name I will not mention in case any potential criminals are listening. Because there are no rural police stations these days, a couple of police officers go round the area in a panda car throughout the night. I could hardly believe the extent of the area that two police officers were expected to cover. I encourage every rural MSP in this chamber to go out with the police and tour the rural areas. They will be staggered. If the public knew, they would also be outraged.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome this debate. From the election campaign for this Parliament, we all remember the feeling expressed on doorsteps throughout the country about law and order. For instance, when I was campaigning in Aberdeen, I met an elderly lady whose house had been broken into three times in a year. That woman now lives a life of fear, and we must keep people like her at the forefront of our minds when we are debating this subject.

Crime and police levels are not just an urban issue; they are a rural issue. I was surprised that Jim Wallace said, when defending the closure of Penninghame open prison, that it was remote from the central belt. Perhaps when he is in the chamber he can explain what he meant by that.

There is a widespread belief throughout our rural communities that police levels are declining and crime levels are increasing. However, the Executive's amendment says that one of its objectives is

\"to encourage stronger links between the police and the communities in which they operate\".

That is commendable but, in many of our rural areas, the police stations have been closed over the past decade. As Colin Campbell quite rightly said, one reason for that is the lack of funds and the enforced sell-off of the family silver. The wellkent village bobby really is becoming a thing of the past, and we are losing all the benefits of the informal policing that the village bobby could use to defuse volatile situations. That simply does not happen any more.

Rural crime is compounded by the physical and social isolation of our rural communities, and police response times are lengthy. Every time there are cuts it seems to be the rural police stations that are first to go. A couple of years ago, I was given a tour by Grampian police in a rural area in the north-east, whose name I will not mention in case any potential criminals are listening. Because there are no rural police stations these days, a couple of police officers go round the area in a panda car throughout the night. I could hardly believe the extent of the area that two police officers were expected to cover. I encourage every rural MSP in this chamber to go out with the police and tour the rural areas. They will be staggered. If the public knew, they would also be outraged.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:31.1569345+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2180E179P471C712426", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lochhead, Richard", "ID": 2180, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Lochhead", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Richard Lochhead: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 195.0, "ContributionID": 712426, "EditedText": "Margaret Ewing makes an excellent point that emphasises the need for special consideration for policing in rural Scotland. New ideas are needed to support traditional policing in both rural and urban areas. I would like the Executive to address the question of air surveillance and air support. Tayside police and Grampian police are enthusiastic about that new type of policing, which is great for chasing vehicles or searching for missing persons. The police forces in England have been given several million pounds of pump priming funding to start such projects. That money has been provided by the Home Office, but the Scottish Executive has not announced that there will be similar assistance in Scotland. However, it is a valuable means of assistance for protecting life and property and we should be supporting our police forces in establishing that service. Finally, I turn to prison cuts. Many members have already outlined the serious concerns that the SNP has about those cuts. We should be boosting the morale of the people in the front line of law and order, including prison officers, rather than depleting it yet further. About a year ago, the trade union side issued a report called \"Work and Health in the Scottish Prison Service\", which emphasised the amount of stress that prison officers experience in their day-to-day jobs. That is due to a range of factors, including bullying in the workplace, as management seeks to enforce efficiency savings. The situation is unacceptable and is likely to worsen with fewer prison officers and prisons. As the report says, there should be more, not less, investment in the Prison Service. Diverting the cash to the drugs enforcement agency is ironic. As I understand its purpose, it is to catch drug dealers and imprison them. Surely, if it does its job, that means that the prison population will increase. The Executive has failed to take that into account. Other speakers have mentioned the mothballing of the Peterhead unit. That decision is inexplicable, with no alternative being put forward for dealing with difficult prisoners. Law and order in Scotland took a nosedive under 18 years of the Tories. If the Executive does not want to follow in their footsteps, it should give us more prisons, more prison officers and more police on the beat, and support the SNP amendment.", "EditedTextHTML": "Margaret Ewing makes an excellent point that emphasises the need for special consideration for policing in rural Scotland.

New ideas are needed to support traditional policing in both rural and urban areas. I would like the Executive to address the question of air surveillance and air support. Tayside police and Grampian police are enthusiastic about that new type of policing, which is great for chasing vehicles or searching for missing persons. The police forces in England have been given several million pounds of pump priming funding to start such projects. That money has been provided by the Home Office, but the Scottish Executive has not announced that there will be similar assistance in Scotland. However, it is a valuable means of assistance for protecting life and property and we should be supporting our police forces in establishing that service.

Finally, I turn to prison cuts. Many members have already outlined the serious concerns that the SNP has about those cuts. We should be boosting the morale of the people in the front line of law and order, including prison officers, rather than depleting it yet further. About a year ago, the trade union side issued a report called \"Work and Health in the Scottish Prison Service\", which emphasised the amount of stress that prison officers experience in their day-to-day jobs. That is due to a range of factors, including bullying in the workplace, as management seeks to enforce efficiency savings.

The situation is unacceptable and is likely to worsen with fewer prison officers and prisons. As the report says, there should be more, not less, investment in the Prison Service. Diverting the cash to the drugs enforcement agency is ironic. As I understand its purpose, it is to catch drug dealers and imprison them. Surely, if it does its job, that means that the prison population will increase. The Executive has failed to take that into account.

Other speakers have mentioned the mothballing of the Peterhead unit. That decision is inexplicable, with no alternative being put forward for dealing with difficult prisoners.

Law and order in Scotland took a nosedive under 18 years of the Tories. If the Executive does not want to follow in their footsteps, it should give us more prisons, more prison officers and more police on the beat, and support the SNP amendment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:31.1569345+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2180E179P471C712428", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lochhead, Richard", "ID": 2180, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Lochhead", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Richard Lochhead: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 200.0, "ContributionID": 712428, "EditedText": "What does the member intend to do with the drug barons, once they are caught?", "EditedTextHTML": "What does the member intend to do with the drug barons, once they are caught?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:31.1569345+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2133E222P520C712620", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Freedom of Information", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27136, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 582.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 582.0, "ID": 27136, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Matheson, Michael", "ID": 2133, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Matheson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Matheson (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 604.0, "ContributionID": 712620, "EditedText": "I am sure that the Deputy First Minister is aware of Kevin Murphy's visit to Scotland last week. He is the information commissioner for Ireland, who is responsible for the Freedom of Information Act there. He made specific reference, when he was here, to the experience in Canada, which has had a freedom of information act for about 16 years. The greatest difficulty that the Canadians have experienced has been breaking down the culture of secrecy within public services. What action will the minister take to break down the culture of secrecy, which often exists within public services?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sure that the Deputy First Minister is aware of Kevin Murphy's visit to Scotland last week. He is the information commissioner for Ireland, who is responsible for the Freedom of Information Act there. He made specific reference, when he was here, to the experience in Canada, which has had a freedom of information act for about 16 years. The greatest difficulty that the Canadians have experienced has been breaking down the culture of secrecy within public services.

What action will the minister take to break down the culture of secrecy, which often exists within public services?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:44.0221047+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1756E184P464C712367", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Grahame, Christine", "ID": 1756, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Christine Grahame", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 68.0, "ContributionID": 712367, "EditedText": "In evidence to the Justice and Home Affairs Committee, in discussing Dungavel with Mr Tony Cameron, I quoted from the chief inspector's report, which said that \"there has been a remarkable transformation at Dungavel, partly due to changes in management, efforts by staff and finally, some much needed clarity about the establishment's future. Whilst a drug sub-culture had previously flourished in an environment recognised to be boring, we sense that it should now be possible to create a drug-free establishment. Drugs and other key issues are now being addressed in a structured, cohesive and realistic way, by a closely knit and enthusiastic management team.\" I hardly think that the prison's reward for that should be to find that it is subject to closure. Mr Cameron made it clear that the decisions are the Executive's, so why did the Executive choose that prison for closure?", "EditedTextHTML": "In evidence to the Justice and Home Affairs Committee, in discussing Dungavel with Mr Tony Cameron, I quoted from the chief inspector's report, which said that

\"there has been a remarkable transformation at Dungavel, partly due to changes in management, efforts by staff and finally, some much needed clarity about the establishment's future. Whilst a drug sub-culture had previously flourished in an environment recognised to be boring, we sense that it should now be possible to create a drug-free establishment. Drugs and other key issues are now being addressed in a structured, cohesive and realistic way, by a closely knit and enthusiastic management team.\"

I hardly think that the prison's reward for that should be to find that it is subject to closure. Mr Cameron made it clear that the decisions are the Executive's, so why did the Executive choose that prison for closure?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:01:00.1970678+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C712357", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 48.0, "ContributionID": 712357, "EditedText": "I deride the minister's opening remarks with respect to Jeffrey Archer. I did not pick up on personalities—had I done so, Mandelson, Cook, Robinson and Davies would all have come to mind. The minister's comments do not seem to be in line with the principles of this chamber. Moving on from that, does the minister deny the worst fears of the Scottish Police Federation, which estimates that by the end of this year the number of serving police in Scotland will be down on preferred figures by between 500 and 1,000?", "EditedTextHTML": "I deride the minister's opening remarks with respect to Jeffrey Archer. I did not pick up on personalities—had I done so, Mandelson, Cook, Robinson and Davies would all have come to mind. The minister's comments do not seem to be in line with the principles of this chamber.

Moving on from that, does the minister deny the worst fears of the Scottish Police Federation, which estimates that by the end of this year the number of serving police in Scotland will be down on preferred figures by between 500 and 1,000?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2140E187P335C712338", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Rumbles, Mike", "ID": 2140, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Rumbles", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Mike Rumbles (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 9.0, "ContributionID": 712338, "EditedText": "Will Phil Gallie comment on a question asked in the House of Commons earlier this year by my colleague, Sir Robert Smith? He asked what was the year-on-year change in central Government funding for police in Scotland between 1979 and 1999 in cash and in real terms. Henry McLeish's answer showed that there were four years in which the year-on-year percentage change in real terms was a cut—1985, 1990, 1994 and 1996. How does that square with Mr Gallie's earlier comments?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Phil Gallie comment on a question asked in the House of Commons earlier this year by my colleague, Sir Robert Smith? He

asked what was the year-on-year change in central Government funding for police in Scotland between 1979 and 1999 in cash and in real terms. Henry McLeish's answer showed that there were four years in which the year-on-year percentage change in real terms was a cut—1985, 1990, 1994 and 1996. How does that square with Mr Gallie's earlier comments?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C712339", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 11.0, "ContributionID": 712339, "EditedText": "If one considers the 18-year record of the Tory Government, one sees an overall increase in real terms in provision for the police. MEMBERS: \"Facts.\" Mr Rumbles may wave his notes in the air, but he cannot deny the fact that we doubled expenditure. We increased real-terms expenditure by a substantial amount over those 18 years. I accept the fact that there were special payments in particular years, leading to a reduction in the following year. Overall, however, there was a real-terms increase. Police numbers in Scotland increased by 2,000 over the period of Tory government. Perhaps Mr Rumbles can come up with a question that Robert Smith asked in the House of Commons that denies those figures—figures that the Conservatives are proud of.", "EditedTextHTML": "If one considers the 18-year record of the Tory Government, one sees an overall increase in real terms in provision for the police. [MEMBERS: \"Facts.\"] Mr Rumbles may wave his notes in the air, but he cannot deny the fact that we doubled expenditure. We increased real-terms expenditure by a substantial amount over those 18 years. I accept the fact that there were special payments in particular years, leading to a reduction in the following year. Overall, however, there was a real-terms increase.

Police numbers in Scotland increased by 2,000 over the period of Tory government. Perhaps Mr Rumbles can come up with a question that Robert Smith asked in the House of Commons that denies those figures—figures that the Conservatives are proud of.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C712344", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Justice (Angus MacKay) rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 21.0, "ContributionID": 712344, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C712348", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Angus MacKay rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 29.0, "ContributionID": 712348, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C712350", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Angus MacKay: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 33.0, "ContributionID": 712350, "EditedText": "I can clarify that members of the Criminal Assets Bureau in Ireland and members of the Irish Government confirmed to me their confidence that, even if they were challenged under the terms of the European convention on human rights, they would win any such challenge in the European courts. Does Mr Gallie support the European convention on human rights?", "EditedTextHTML": "I can clarify that members of the Criminal Assets Bureau in Ireland and members of the Irish Government confirmed to me their confidence that, even if they were challenged under the terms of the European convention on human rights, they would win any such challenge in the European courts.

Does Mr Gallie support the European convention on human rights?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C712352", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice (Mr Jim Wallace): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 38.0, "ContributionID": 712352, "EditedText": "Mr Gallie began his remarks by saying that he was starting from a position of strength. It takes a lot of courage to do that in the week in which Lord Archer has blazed a trail for truth and justice for the Conservative party. With such strength, who needs weakness? Mr Gallie finished his speech by talking from a position of strength and ignored an intervention from Mr Rumbles, who pointed out that crime had increased throughout the years of the Conservative Government, to the extent that at the end of its period in government, it was higher than when it took office. As Mr Gallie was trading statistics at the end, we should note that the crime clear-up rate in 1997 in Scotland was 39 per cent and that it rose to 41 per cent in 1998. The figures depend on the type of crime—60 per cent of serious assaults and 71 per cent of sexual assaults were cleared up in 1998. In general, clear-up rates have been rising throughout the 1990s. I will respond in due course to the specific criticisms levelled by Mr Gallie. First, I will make general comments about the Executive's position on law and order policy. Our policies were set out in \"Making it work together\". They provide a practical but visionary way forward in tackling crime. We said: \"We want a secure Scotland where individuals and communities are free from crime and free from the fear of crime. We will work together with the police and with communities to make our streets and neighbourhoods safe. That means attacking the drugs menace that threatens to blight our society. It also means having a police force that is rooted in our communities and spends its time on front-line duties. We will promote effective measures to support the victims of crime. We will further protect our communities through the rehabilitation of offenders. We will be tough on crime and on criminals.\" The fact that we have a justice department symbolises our commitment. If we are to consider ourselves a just society, our justice system must be ever more effective in dealing with victims and offenders alike. Justice, of course, embraces social justice, which is a key element in tackling the root causes of crime. Earlier this week, the key milestones in our programme for social justice included a historic challenge and opportunity to eradicate child poverty, to move towards full employment and to guarantee financial security for older people. This is a long journey—we have made no bones about it. However, by tackling the root causes of crime, we are more likely to break the vicious cycle of deprivation and crime that exists in too many of our communities. The whole Parliament would agree that effective policing is crucial in combating crime. We want to encourage stronger links between the police and the communities in which they operate. To that end, we want to maintain—and, where possible, increase—the number of police officers who are available for front-line duties. Mr Gallie gave us a range of statistics on police numbers that he had gathered. It is only accurate to point out that at the most recent count, in September this year, the number of serving police officers was higher than at almost any time during the Conservatives' 18 years in office. Police numbers fluctuate because of retirements and resignations, and forces have to recruit accordingly. As Mr Gallie rightly pointed out, recruitment cannot be done simply by turning on a tap or by putting an advertisement in a jobcentre. It is not an exact science. Mr Gallie said that at the moment the police had no money for recruitment, but according to the information that I have, nearly all the eight forces in Scotland are recruiting at present. Let me make it clear that the Executive does not determine police force strength. That is an operational matter for chief constables, based on the resources that are available.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Gallie began his remarks by saying that he was starting from a position of strength. It takes a lot of courage to do that in the week in which Lord Archer has blazed a trail for truth and justice for the Conservative party. With such strength, who needs weakness?

Mr Gallie finished his speech by talking from a position of strength and ignored an intervention from Mr Rumbles, who pointed out that crime had increased throughout the years of the Conservative Government, to the extent that at the end of its period in government, it was higher than when it took office. As Mr Gallie was trading statistics at the end, we should note that the crime clear-up rate in 1997 in Scotland was 39 per cent and that it rose to 41 per cent in 1998. The figures depend on the type of crime—60 per cent of serious assaults and 71 per cent of sexual assaults were cleared up in 1998. In general, clear-up rates have been rising throughout the 1990s.

I will respond in due course to the specific criticisms levelled by Mr Gallie. First, I will make general comments about the Executive's position on law and order policy.

Our policies were set out in \"Making it work together\". They provide a practical but visionary way forward in tackling crime. We said:

\"We want a secure Scotland where individuals and communities are free from crime and free from the fear of crime. We will work together with the police and with communities to make our streets and neighbourhoods safe. That means attacking the drugs menace that threatens to blight our society. It also means having a police force that is rooted in our communities and spends its time on front-line duties. We will promote effective measures to support the victims of crime. We will further protect our communities through the rehabilitation of offenders. We will be tough on crime and on criminals.\"

The fact that we have a justice department symbolises our commitment. If we are to consider ourselves a just society, our justice system must be ever more effective in dealing with victims and offenders alike.

Justice, of course, embraces social justice, which is a key element in tackling the root causes of crime. Earlier this week, the key milestones in our programme for social justice included a historic challenge and opportunity to eradicate child poverty, to move towards full employment and to guarantee financial security for older people. This is a long journey—we have made no bones about it. However, by tackling the root causes of crime, we are more likely to break the vicious cycle of deprivation and crime that exists in too many of our communities.

The whole Parliament would agree that effective policing is crucial in combating crime. We want to encourage stronger links between the police and the communities in which they operate. To that end, we want to maintain—and, where possible, increase—the number of police officers who are available for front-line duties. Mr Gallie gave us a range of statistics on police numbers that he had gathered. It is only accurate to point out that at the most recent count, in September this year, the number of serving police officers was higher than at almost any time during the Conservatives' 18 years in office.

Police numbers fluctuate because of retirements and resignations, and forces have to recruit accordingly. As Mr Gallie rightly pointed out, recruitment cannot be done simply by turning on a tap or by putting an advertisement in a jobcentre. It is not an exact science. Mr Gallie said that at the moment the police had no money for recruitment, but according to the information that I have, nearly all the eight forces in Scotland are recruiting at present. Let me make it clear that the Executive does not determine police force strength. That is an operational matter for chief constables, based on the resources that are available.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C712358", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 50.0, "ContributionID": 712358, "EditedText": "I am not quite sure what science is attached to preferred figures. I am aware of the concerns that have been expressed by the Scottish Police Federation, by the Association of Chief Police Officers (Scotland) and by the superintendents, and I have indicated my willingness to meet them and discuss their concerns. However, it is important to point out that the increases that I have mentioned are substantial. We should also not lose sight of the fact that there has been a considerable growth in the number of support staff—a move towards civilianisation. That means that the work of police officers who were previously in charge of control rooms or who worked in personnel and liquor or firearms licensing departments is now being done by civilians. Mr Gallie referred to the point that was made by Douglas Keil of the Scottish Police Federation about officers on the street. Because a move towards civilianisation has taken place, more police officers have been freed up for the front-line operational duties that the public expect them to carry out. Since 1979, police support staff strength has increased from 2,747 to 4,725. However, I recognise the concerns of the police staff associations and I have agreed to discuss the matter with them. As Mr Gallie acknowledged, the Executive is intent on tackling the menace of drugs. The Scottish crime squad, Customs and Excise, the National Criminal Intelligence Service and the eight Scottish police forces do sterling work in stemming the tide of drug trafficking. We believe that the creation of the new Scottish drugs enforcement agency will provide an even more focused and strategic approach. It will bring together all the information from Scottish forces and other organisations about the threats from outwith and within Scotland; the new agency will use that to determine where the Scottish enforcement priorities should lie. The agency will be up and running by June next year. The £10.5 million that we are making available over the period of the comprehensive spending review will fund significant additional manpower—up to 100 extra officers for the Scottish crime squad and up to 100 extra officers for drug squads in local forces. We recognise that our enforcement measures must be combined with a range of effective preventive measures, and we are examining our strategy on youth crime. Contrary to the rhetoric of Mr Gallie, recent research indicates that youths involved in structured sport and leisure pursuits are less likely to offend than other young people. That has a major impact when young people might be more exposed to the range of high-risk factors that lead to criminality. Earlier this year, based on evidence that we had gathered, a number of local authorities were invited to apply for funding for four drug diversion projects in Scotland, where the focus would be on sport and leisure. Today, I am pleased to announce that the Scottish Executive will fund projects based in Aberdeen, Dumfries and Galloway, Glasgow and South Lanarkshire. Each of the projects will receive £12,000 for two years—a total of £96,000. Individuals invited to take part in those projects will be either known offenders or in a group that has a high risk of becoming involved in drug taking. We want to get young people out of a cycle of negative activity and into a pattern of positive activity. An important element of the projects will be to gauge the impact of leisure interventions on drug taking and offending, with a view to demonstrating to local authorities the likely wider cost benefits that will accrue from such interventions. That will be done through an evaluation programme, which will track the offending patterns of individual young people who participate in the projects during the two-year period. It is important that we examine a wide range of innovative approaches to divert our young people from the lure of drugs and criminality. I look forward to learning how the individual projects progress.Understandably and predictably, Mr Gallie focused on the issue of imprisonment. Scotland has one of the highest prison populations in Europe. The Scottish Prison Service estate has over 6,400 prisoner places and a current population of 6,000. The increase in the prison population is expected to slow down. Mr Gallie seemed to dismiss the comments of Her Majesty's chief inspector of prisons on the possibility of consideration being given to closing one or two of the more isolated establishments. However, that report was laid before this Parliament in August this year, so it is relevant. During the summer, statisticians predicted that the prison population for the year 1999-2000 would be 6,100. At the moment there are fewer prisoners than that, and the average will probably be 6,000.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am not quite sure what science is attached to preferred figures. I am aware of the concerns that have been expressed by the Scottish Police Federation, by the Association of Chief Police Officers (Scotland) and by the superintendents, and I have indicated my willingness to meet them and discuss their concerns.

However, it is important to point out that the increases that I have mentioned are substantial. We should also not lose sight of the fact that there has been a considerable growth in the number of support staff—a move towards civilianisation. That means that the work of police officers who were previously in charge of control rooms or who worked in personnel and liquor or firearms licensing departments is now being done by civilians.

Mr Gallie referred to the point that was made by Douglas Keil of the Scottish Police Federation about officers on the street. Because a move towards civilianisation has taken place, more police officers have been freed up for the front-line operational duties that the public expect them to carry out. Since 1979, police support staff strength has increased from 2,747 to 4,725. However, I recognise the concerns of the police staff associations and I have agreed to discuss the matter with them.

As Mr Gallie acknowledged, the Executive is intent on tackling the menace of drugs. The Scottish crime squad, Customs and Excise, the National Criminal Intelligence Service and the eight Scottish police forces do sterling work in stemming the tide of drug trafficking. We believe that the creation of the new Scottish drugs enforcement agency will provide an even more focused and strategic approach. It will bring together all the information from Scottish forces and other organisations about the threats from outwith and within Scotland; the new agency will use that to determine where the Scottish enforcement priorities should lie.

The agency will be up and running by June next year. The £10.5 million that we are making available over the period of the comprehensive spending review will fund significant additional manpower—up to 100 extra officers for the Scottish crime squad and up to 100 extra officers for drug squads in local forces.

We recognise that our enforcement measures must be combined with a range of effective preventive measures, and we are examining our strategy on youth crime. Contrary to the rhetoric of Mr Gallie, recent research indicates that youths involved in structured sport and leisure pursuits are less likely to offend than other young people. That has a major impact when young people might be more exposed to the range of high-risk factors that lead to criminality. Earlier this year, based on evidence that we had gathered, a number of local authorities were invited to apply for funding for four drug diversion projects in Scotland, where the focus would be on sport and leisure.

Today, I am pleased to announce that the Scottish Executive will fund projects based in Aberdeen, Dumfries and Galloway, Glasgow and South Lanarkshire. Each of the projects will receive £12,000 for two years—a total of £96,000. Individuals invited to take part in those projects will be either known offenders or in a group that has a high risk of becoming involved in drug taking. We want to get young people out of a cycle of negative activity and into a pattern of positive activity. An important element of the projects will be to gauge the impact of leisure interventions on drug taking and offending, with a view to demonstrating to local authorities the likely wider cost benefits that will accrue from such interventions. That will be done through an evaluation programme, which will track the offending patterns of individual young people who participate in the projects during the two-year period.

It is important that we examine a wide range of innovative approaches to divert our young people from the lure of drugs and criminality. I look forward to learning how the individual projects

progress.

Understandably and predictably, Mr Gallie focused on the issue of imprisonment. Scotland has one of the highest prison populations in Europe. The Scottish Prison Service estate has over 6,400 prisoner places and a current population of 6,000. The increase in the prison population is expected to slow down.

Mr Gallie seemed to dismiss the comments of Her Majesty's chief inspector of prisons on the possibility of consideration being given to closing one or two of the more isolated establishments. However, that report was laid before this Parliament in August this year, so it is relevant. During the summer, statisticians predicted that the prison population for the year 1999-2000 would be 6,100. At the moment there are fewer prisoners than that, and the average will probably be 6,000.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C712360", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 54.0, "ContributionID": 712360, "EditedText": "The number of crimes is not necessarily related to the number of criminals. That is an important point. A disproportionately high number of drug-related crimes and youth crimes are committed by a small number of people. Serious crimes will always attract prison sentences, to ensure public safety and to mark society's displeasure. We want to try to ensure that there are alternatives to custody for far less serious crimes. Those are the things that we, as an Executive, will work out. They are not soft options; many of the alternatives to custody are very tough and are the kind of options that we want to introduce.", "EditedTextHTML": "The number of crimes is not necessarily related to the number of criminals. That is an important point. A disproportionately high number of drug-related crimes and youth crimes are committed by a small number of people.

Serious crimes will always attract prison sentences, to ensure public safety and to mark society's displeasure. We want to try to ensure that there are alternatives to custody for far less serious crimes. Those are the things that we, as an Executive, will work out. They are not soft options; many of the alternatives to custody are very tough and are the kind of options that we want to introduce.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C712361", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Richard Simpson (Ochil) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 56.0, "ContributionID": 712361, "EditedText": "To assist Mr Wallace in dealing with Mr McLetchie, in Clackmannanshire, 17 youngsters committed 60 per cent of the drug-related crime—17 individuals who cannot be jailed repeatedly. Those 17 youngsters are in jail because they are repeat offenders. The crime levels have risen, but the number of people committing crimes has not. It is simple, Mr McLetchie.", "EditedTextHTML": "To assist Mr Wallace in dealing with Mr McLetchie, in Clackmannanshire, 17 youngsters committed 60 per cent of the drug-related crime—17 individuals who cannot be jailed repeatedly. Those 17 youngsters are in jail because they are repeat offenders. The crime levels have risen, but the number of people committing crimes has not. It is simple, Mr McLetchie.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C712362", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 58.0, "ContributionID": 712362, "EditedText": "Each one of the 17 youngsters cannot be jailed over and over again—Mr McLetchie fails to grasp a fairly basic point.", "EditedTextHTML": "Each one of the 17 youngsters cannot be jailed over and over again—Mr McLetchie fails to grasp a fairly basic point.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C712369", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 72.0, "ContributionID": 712369, "EditedText": "Will Mr Wallace give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr Wallace give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C712372", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 78.0, "ContributionID": 712372, "EditedText": "I have been asked to wind up, which means that—because I have given way so many times—I cannot cover all the points. I say to Mr Gallie that information to victims is an important part of our strategy of improving the support and service that are given to victims. The introduction of more information technology, linking the fiscal service with the Scottish Court Service, should enable that to happen more effectively. Mr Gallie seems to dismiss very lightly the European convention on human rights—to which this country has been a signatory since 1951—and the fact that individuals have had the right to take a case to Strasbourg since 1966, although yesterday he was praying it in aid to help landowners who might be affected by the community right to buy. We should be proud that we have brought rights and justice home—I do not make any apology for that. It is worth pointing out that, since May, while more than 170 criminal cases have been raised that deal with ECHR points, all but three of those challenges have been dismissed. The sheriffs principal, permanent sheriffs and staff of the Scottish Court Service have responded positively to the need to plan and deliver a court programme without the use of temporary sheriffs, thanks to some astute contingency planning by the sheriffs principal. The courts were ready to make the necessary adjustments to the business programme, the main aim being to prioritise urgent criminal cases and civil cases involving vulnerable witnesses, including children. It is undeniable that there will be delays in handling non-urgent business, and some court users, particularly in civil cases, will be disappointed by having their cases deferred. However, the permanent judiciary is working to maintain a service to the public and we all ought to be grateful to it for that. A measure of relief will come from the appointment of 10 new floating sheriffs, who will be allocated to the areas of greatest need when they begin to take up appointments around the turn of the year. There may well be a need to consider further appointments, but we will reach a decision on that once the Lord Advocate has considered his response to the High Court judgment. There is so much more that could be said. I have set out clearly the Executive's position that our communities should be free from crime and the fear of crime. The Executive has the will and commitment to ensure that that happens. I move amendment S1M-316.1, to leave out from \"expresses\" to end and insert: \"supports the Executive's policies on law and order and the principles and initiatives set out in the Partnership for Scotland agreement and the priorities identified in the Programme for Government and in particular the measures being taken to combat crime and drugs, to support the victims of crime, to encourage stronger links between the police and the communities in which they operate, to tackle the problem of persistent re-offending, to rehabilitate offenders through training, education and work and through alternatives to custody, and in putting in place effective community safety strategies.\"", "EditedTextHTML": "I have been asked to wind up, which means that—because I have given way so many times—I cannot cover all the points.

I say to Mr Gallie that information to victims is an important part of our strategy of improving the support and service that are given to victims. The introduction of more information technology, linking the fiscal service with the Scottish Court Service, should enable that to happen more effectively.

Mr Gallie seems to dismiss very lightly the European convention on human rights—to which this country has been a signatory since 1951—and the fact that individuals have had the right to take a case to Strasbourg since 1966, although yesterday he was praying it in aid to help landowners who might be affected by the community right to buy. We should be proud that we have brought rights and justice home—I do not make any apology for that. It is worth pointing out that, since May, while more than 170 criminal cases have been raised that deal with ECHR points, all but three of those challenges have been dismissed.

The sheriffs principal, permanent sheriffs and staff of the Scottish Court Service have responded positively to the need to plan and deliver a court programme without the use of temporary sheriffs, thanks to some astute contingency planning by the sheriffs principal. The courts were ready to make the necessary adjustments to the business programme, the main aim being to prioritise urgent criminal cases and civil cases involving vulnerable witnesses, including children.

It is undeniable that there will be delays in handling non-urgent business, and some court users, particularly in civil cases, will be disappointed by having their cases deferred. However, the permanent judiciary is working to maintain a service to the public and we all ought to be grateful to it for that.

A measure of relief will come from the appointment of 10 new floating sheriffs, who will be allocated to the areas of greatest need when they begin to take up appointments around the turn of the year. There may well be a need to consider further appointments, but we will reach a decision on that once the Lord Advocate has considered his response to the High Court judgment.

There is so much more that could be said. I have set out clearly the Executive's position that our communities should be free from crime and the fear of crime. The Executive has the will and commitment to ensure that that happens.

I move amendment S1M-316.1, to leave out from \"expresses\" to end and insert:

\"supports the Executive's policies on law and order and the principles and initiatives set out in the Partnership for Scotland agreement and the priorities identified in the Programme for Government and in particular the measures being taken to combat crime and drugs, to support the victims of crime, to encourage stronger links between the police and the communities in which they operate, to tackle the problem of persistent re-offending, to rehabilitate offenders through training, education and work and through alternatives to custody, and in putting in place effective community safety strategies.\"

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C712376", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 87.0, "ContributionID": 712376, "EditedText": "Does the member agree that the programme of prison closures comes directly from the Government's withdrawal of £13.5 million? Does he agree that it is disgraceful that a new prison executive, who took up his post in September, was forced to call a review in October and to declare prison closures in November?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the member agree that the programme of prison closures comes directly from the Government's withdrawal of £13.5 million? Does he agree that it is disgraceful that a new prison executive, who took up his post in September, was forced to call a review in October and to declare prison closures in November?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C712380", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Angus MacKay: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 95.0, "ContributionID": 712380, "EditedText": "That concluding sentence was just nonsense. I would again like to quote Mr Clive Fairweather on the specific point that Mr Matheson is raising on the Peterhead unit. In response to the announcement, he said: \"This is for up to 10 difficult prisoners, and only today we have just completed the first formal inspection report on it. It is to be ‘mothballed'—and this can be done safely as there is another unit at Shotts and the National Induction Centre, the latter of which we praised last year.\" On the provision of drugs rehabilitation services in Scottish prisons, we are already actively looking at ways of linking those services to the broader rehabilitation services outwith prisons.", "EditedTextHTML": "That concluding sentence was just nonsense.

I would again like to quote Mr Clive Fairweather on the specific point that Mr Matheson is raising on the Peterhead unit. In response to the announcement, he said:

\"This is for up to 10 difficult prisoners, and only today we have just completed the first formal inspection report on it. It is to be ‘mothballed'—and this can be done safely as there is another unit at Shotts and the National Induction Centre, the latter of which we praised last year.\"

On the provision of drugs rehabilitation services in Scottish prisons, we are already actively looking at ways of linking those services to the broader rehabilitation services outwith prisons.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C712382", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 99.0, "ContributionID": 712382, "EditedText": "We now move to the open part of the debate. Members have four minutes for their speeches.", "EditedTextHTML": "We now move to the open part of the debate. Members have four minutes for their speeches.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2122E6P19C712383", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay", "ID": 2122, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lyndsay McIntosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Lyndsay McIntosh (Central Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 102.0, "ContributionID": 712383, "EditedText": "I did not intend to begin by replying to Michael Matheson's speech, but I want to applaud his comments about Mr and Mrs Godley. The minister must realise that, while he is talking about statistics, we are dealing with people. It was dreadful to see Mrs Godley's distress, and she is unlikely to see a proper result. That is criminal. I welcome this opportunity to discuss so many crucial issues. However, I do not intend to concentrate on police budgets, which have been cut; on police numbers, which are arguable; on prisons, which are to close; on courts, which are in turmoil because of the incorporation of the European convention on human rights into Scots law; or even on alleged breaches of the peace, which have been so very recently in the news. Instead, I will concentrate on the equally important and wide-ranging issue of drugs. Drugs are a threat to the very fabric of our society. They ruin the lives of addicts and addicts' families alike. All too frequently, drug addicts resort to crime to pay for their habit and, in the process, destroy the lives of law-abiding citizens and entire communities. There is little doubt that drugs and crime go hand in hand. A recent national treatment outcome research study illustrated that, for every pound spent on drug abuse treatment, more than £3 is saved on the cost of crime. Unfortunately, recent trends have been less than encouraging. As we speak, there are between 100,000 and 200,000 drug addicts in the UK. The annual cost to the taxpayer from the more serious users alone is well in excess of £4 billion. Internationally, the illegal drugs trade is worth an estimated $40 billion, which is 8 per cent of all international trade. Those figures serve only to exemplify the true extent of the drugs menace. It is our job, as representatives of the people of Scotland, to challenge and defeat that menace. Our children deserve no less. That requires a truly co-ordinated approach across a number of Executive departments and agencies. The matter is not just for the department of justice and home affairs; it affects other departments with responsibility for issues such as health and community care, children and education, social inclusion, housing and local government. Furthermore, we have various people to deal with the problem. Mr Jim Wallace and Mr MacKay are present, although Mr Sam Galbraith is not and Peter Peacock seems to be preening his feathers elsewhere. We also have Rhona Brankin; Susan Deacon, who may very well have the blues because of the problem; Iain Gray; Wendy Alexander; Jackie Baillie; and Frank McAveety, who is obviously not in Holyrood today. Why, then, are only two members of the Executive present for a debate on such an important issue?", "EditedTextHTML": "I did not intend to begin by replying to Michael Matheson's speech, but I want to applaud his comments about Mr and Mrs Godley. The minister must realise that, while he is talking about statistics, we are dealing with people. It was dreadful to see Mrs Godley's distress, and she is unlikely to see a proper result. That is criminal.

I welcome this opportunity to discuss so many crucial issues. However, I do not intend to concentrate on police budgets, which have been cut; on police numbers, which are arguable; on prisons, which are to close; on courts, which are in turmoil because of the incorporation of the

European convention on human rights into Scots law; or even on alleged breaches of the peace, which have been so very recently in the news. Instead, I will concentrate on the equally important and wide-ranging issue of drugs.

Drugs are a threat to the very fabric of our society. They ruin the lives of addicts and addicts' families alike. All too frequently, drug addicts resort to crime to pay for their habit and, in the process, destroy the lives of law-abiding citizens and entire communities. There is little doubt that drugs and crime go hand in hand. A recent national treatment outcome research study illustrated that, for every pound spent on drug abuse treatment, more than £3 is saved on the cost of crime.

Unfortunately, recent trends have been less than encouraging. As we speak, there are between 100,000 and 200,000 drug addicts in the UK. The annual cost to the taxpayer from the more serious users alone is well in excess of £4 billion. Internationally, the illegal drugs trade is worth an estimated $40 billion, which is 8 per cent of all international trade. Those figures serve only to exemplify the true extent of the drugs menace. It is our job, as representatives of the people of Scotland, to challenge and defeat that menace. Our children deserve no less.

That requires a truly co-ordinated approach across a number of Executive departments and agencies. The matter is not just for the department of justice and home affairs; it affects other departments with responsibility for issues such as health and community care, children and education, social inclusion, housing and local government. Furthermore, we have various people to deal with the problem. Mr Jim Wallace and Mr MacKay are present, although Mr Sam Galbraith is not and Peter Peacock seems to be preening his feathers elsewhere. We also have Rhona Brankin; Susan Deacon, who may very well have the blues because of the problem; Iain Gray; Wendy Alexander; Jackie Baillie; and Frank McAveety, who is obviously not in Holyrood today. Why, then, are only two members of the Executive present for a debate on such an important issue?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2122E6P19C712387", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay", "ID": 2122, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lyndsay McIntosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs McIntosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 110.0, "ContributionID": 712387, "EditedText": "We need a minister with sole responsibility for drugs. Briefly—", "EditedTextHTML": "We need a minister with sole responsibility for drugs.

Briefly—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2122E6P19C712391", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay", "ID": 2122, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lyndsay McIntosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs McIntosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 118.0, "ContributionID": 712391, "EditedText": "In that case, may I assure the Minister for Justice that we will support the Executive's plans for the development of a drugs enforcement agency. No one has all the answers. If constructive proposals are made, we will support them.", "EditedTextHTML": "In that case, may I assure the Minister for Justice that we will support the Executive's plans for the development of a drugs enforcement agency. No one has all the answers. If constructive proposals are made, we will support them.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C712402", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Angus MacKay: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 142.0, "ContributionID": 712402, "EditedText": "Will Mr Gibson give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr Gibson give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1973E119P326C712416", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gorrie, Donald", "ID": 1973, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Donald Gorrie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Donald Gorrie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 171.0, "ContributionID": 712416, "EditedText": "That sort of thing would be helpful, but often people are needed, not expensive facilities. Some facilities are required, but people and investment in helping the young people to run their own affairs are more important. There are too many strategies on drugs, which are not brought together. The drug action teams have no budget, no resources and no administration. Again, better co-ordination is needed. Overall, we need to co-ordinate our budgets, activities and energies to help young people to help themselves, as individuals, through better activities and sports, better social lives and so on. Young people also need help to run their own affairs collectively. That would make a huge difference to the whole sphere of crime and disorder, without a lot of money being spent. It would also make a much better society than would a system based on retribution. Mr Wallace is on the right lines and I will encourage him further along those lines.", "EditedTextHTML": "That sort of thing would be helpful, but often people are needed, not expensive facilities. Some facilities are required, but people and investment in helping the young people to run their own affairs are more important.

There are too many strategies on drugs, which are not brought together. The drug action teams have no budget, no resources and no administration. Again, better co-ordination is needed.

Overall, we need to co-ordinate our budgets, activities and energies to help young people to help themselves, as individuals, through better activities and sports, better social lives and so on. Young people also need help to run their own affairs collectively. That would make a huge difference to the whole sphere of crime and disorder, without a lot of money being spent. It would also make a much better society than would a system based on retribution. Mr Wallace is on the right lines and I will encourage him further along those lines.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1950E155P451C712417", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Campbell, Colin", "ID": 1950, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Colin Campbell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Colin Campbell (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 174.0, "ContributionID": 712417, "EditedText": "We all agree on the value of a good police force and associated back-up services. In Port Glasgow or Portpatrick, Easterhouse or Eastwood, the public need to know that they have a good police force. The public perception of the police force is important. Statistical accounts, the number of performance indicators and the debates that we have here do not matter; what matters is that the citizen on the street sees a policeperson when they need to. That citizen also needs the comfort and consolation of seeing policepeople in their area, especially if they feel that their area has difficulties with crime. Police personnel are in short supply. In this year's annual report, Her Majesty's chief inspector of constabulary in Scotland reported that from March 1998 to March 1999, police numbers had fallen by 151, a 1 per cent decrease in one year. In September 1997, there were 15,050 police officers in Scotland; at the end of September 1999, the figure was 14,676. That represents a fall of 2.5 per cent. In Lothian and Borders, the chief constable wants 25 extra policepeople for Edinburgh city centre, partly because of VIP visits, of which there have been 156 this year. The Metropolitan police get funds to cover such visits, but Lothian and Borders police do not. He also wants extra officers because there has been a 20 per cent increase in crime in Edinburgh city centre. In Strathclyde region, the police establishment is 350 short—a shortage of 4.76 per cent. It could be argued that that is a small number, but it has a significant effect and causes problems for the community police. Strathclyde region has a good community policing programme, in which identified police personnel are situated in identifiable communities, but when special events take place that attract large numbers of people, the community police are withdrawn from the villages and towns in which they usually serve. It is clear that 350 extra people could make a significant difference to that situation. If the number of staff who are on courses or off sick are added to that shortage of almost 5 per cent, the result is overstretch. Overstretch of resources means slower response times. In addition, as was explained at the briefing that Pauline McNeill also attended, it means that the police have to prioritise telephone calls. People who may have an important problem have to wait longer than the police would want. That diminishes or even destroys confidence in the police. We should not allow such situations to arise. Overstretch also means that more people go off sick. Days lost through sickness rose from 157,964 in 1997-98 to 169,154 in 1998-99. As the overstretch continues, and as people continue to be under stress, that figure is bound to increase. The reason behind that is insufficient funds. The shortfall of available cash in Scotland in the coming 12 months will be the equivalent of 550 fewer police. The only alternative is to sell off the family silver, but in Strathclyde the police have already sold it. All the police housing and estate that could be sold has been sold to find money to keep police personnel on the ground. Either the amount of equipment is cut or the number of police is cut—the outcome of either option is impossible to imagine. Those are not roads down which we want to go. More resources are needed—the people need that and the Executive must take it on board.", "EditedTextHTML": "We all agree on the value of a good police force and associated back-up services. In Port Glasgow or Portpatrick, Easterhouse or Eastwood, the public need to know that they have a good police force.

The public perception of the police force is important. Statistical accounts, the number of performance indicators and the debates that we have here do not matter; what matters is that the citizen on the street sees a policeperson when they need to. That citizen also needs the comfort and consolation of seeing policepeople in their area, especially if they feel that their area has difficulties with crime.

Police personnel are in short supply. In this year's annual report, Her Majesty's chief inspector of constabulary in Scotland reported that from March 1998 to March 1999, police numbers had fallen by 151, a 1 per cent decrease in one year. In September 1997, there were 15,050 police officers in Scotland; at the end of September 1999, the figure was 14,676. That represents a fall of 2.5 per cent. In Lothian and Borders, the chief constable wants 25 extra policepeople for Edinburgh city centre, partly because of VIP visits, of which there have been 156 this year. The Metropolitan police get funds to cover such visits, but Lothian and Borders police do not. He also wants extra officers because there has been a 20 per cent increase in crime in Edinburgh city centre.

In Strathclyde region, the police establishment is 350 short—a shortage of 4.76 per cent. It could be

argued that that is a small number, but it has a significant effect and causes problems for the community police. Strathclyde region has a good community policing programme, in which identified police personnel are situated in identifiable communities, but when special events take place that attract large numbers of people, the community police are withdrawn from the villages and towns in which they usually serve. It is clear that 350 extra people could make a significant difference to that situation.

If the number of staff who are on courses or off sick are added to that shortage of almost 5 per cent, the result is overstretch. Overstretch of resources means slower response times. In addition, as was explained at the briefing that Pauline McNeill also attended, it means that the police have to prioritise telephone calls. People who may have an important problem have to wait longer than the police would want. That diminishes or even destroys confidence in the police. We should not allow such situations to arise. Overstretch also means that more people go off sick. Days lost through sickness rose from 157,964 in 1997-98 to 169,154 in 1998-99. As the overstretch continues, and as people continue to be under stress, that figure is bound to increase.

The reason behind that is insufficient funds. The shortfall of available cash in Scotland in the coming 12 months will be the equivalent of 550 fewer police. The only alternative is to sell off the family silver, but in Strathclyde the police have already sold it. All the police housing and estate that could be sold has been sold to find money to keep police personnel on the ground. Either the amount of equipment is cut or the number of police is cut—the outcome of either option is impossible to imagine. Those are not roads down which we want to go. More resources are needed—the people need that and the Executive must take it on board.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2056E57P84C712423", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James", "ID": 2056, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "James Douglas-Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Lord James Douglas-Hamilton: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 188.0, "ContributionID": 712423, "EditedText": "Yes. I entirely agree with what Margaret Ewing has said. I feel strongly that the Lord Advocate should make a statement to the Parliament. This problem will grow, and I do not believe that the contingency measures that he has put in place are anywhere near equal to the threat that will face the courts very shortly. Colin Campbell raised the issue of police funding, and I whole-heartedly endorse what he said in relation to Edinburgh. Edinburgh is our capital, the centre of commerce, one of the leading financial centres of Europe, a centre for international conferences and the home of the Edinburgh international festival. It needs at least 25 more police officers, and the chief constable has submitted a report to the police board to ask for funding. The funding that is required will be the same as that which the Administration gave for the Botticelli in the National Gallery of Scotland yesterday. Therefore, I feel that that is an altogether reasonable request. In the past five years, there have been 156 visits by heads of Government, and the scale and importance of the Scottish Parliament will impose further pressures on Edinburgh. I hope that the minister will take that message on board. I have no time to expand on my final point, except to say that I was an inmate in Dungavel for some six years of my life. I very much look forward to hearing the minister say what plans he has for it in the future because, sadly, it is fit only to be a prison.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes. I entirely agree with what Margaret Ewing has said. I feel strongly that the Lord Advocate should make a statement to the Parliament. This problem will grow, and I do not believe that the contingency measures that he has put in place are anywhere near equal to the threat that will face the courts very shortly.

Colin Campbell raised the issue of police funding, and I whole-heartedly endorse what he said in relation to Edinburgh. Edinburgh is our capital, the centre of commerce, one of the leading financial centres of Europe, a centre for international conferences and the home of the Edinburgh international festival. It needs at least 25 more police officers, and the chief constable has submitted a report to the police board to ask for funding.

The funding that is required will be the same as that which the Administration gave for the Botticelli in the National Gallery of Scotland yesterday. Therefore, I feel that that is an altogether reasonable request. In the past five years, there have been 156 visits by heads of Government, and the scale and importance of the Scottish Parliament will impose further pressures on Edinburgh. I hope that the minister will take that message on board.

I have no time to expand on my final point, except to say that I was an inmate in Dungavel for some six years of my life. I very much look forward to hearing the minister say what plans he has for it in the future because, sadly, it is fit only to be a prison.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1821E295P538C712425", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Mrs Margaret", "ID": 1821, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Moray" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Margaret Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 193.0, "ContributionID": 712425, "EditedText": "Reference has already been made to the importance of CCTV, but CCTV cannot be used in rural areas to the same extent as is possible in urban areas. Organised criminals are now moving into the villages, which causes a greater problem and increases the need for police officers in rural communities.", "EditedTextHTML": "Reference has already been made to the importance of CCTV, but CCTV cannot be used in rural areas to the same extent as is possible in urban areas. Organised criminals are now moving into the villages, which causes a greater problem and increases the need for police officers in rural communities.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2234E7P20C712432", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Aitken, Bill", "ID": 2234, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bill Aitken", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bill Aitken: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 209.0, "ContributionID": 712432, "EditedText": "The fact is, as the member well knows—but possibly does not, because I appreciate that the Liberal Democrats are not kept fully in the picture with regard to the Executive's actions—that the 10 floating sheriffs were in the pipeline some time ago. What other ticking bombs arise out of the ECHR? I direct the minister, helpfully, to address the matter of bail refusals, because it is likely to cause concern and considerable excitement in the months ahead. I will turn to a matter that has not been raised today—at least, if it has, I have not heard it— which is juvenile offenders. Our system of dealing with juvenile offenders was determined under the Social Work (Scotland) Act 1968, which set up the system of children's panels. A 16-year-old in 1968 is a different animal from a 16-year-old today. Youngsters are maturing much earlier, in every aspect. Sadly, with regard to the criminal side of life they are maturing much earlier also. The children's panel system has a useful and full role to play in respect of children who are genuinely at risk, and I do not wish to see that interfered with in any way, but I wonder, given that there is such a high recidivism rate under the existing legislation, whether it is time to beef up the act significantly, and certainly to make parents responsible in some respects for the misbehaviour of their children. I appreciate that many of the kids who comebefore the children's panel come from families that are maladjusted and dysfunctional in many ways, but at the end of the day something has to be done to make parents realise that they are responsible for crimes and offences that their children commit. The children's panel system was once cynically described to me by a leading Glasgow solicitor as the seed corn for our future. Steps should be taken to remove that concern. On the matter of alternatives to custody, I was intrigued by Donald Gorrie's suggestion of weekend prison sentences. To my mind, Donald Gorrie frequently makes sensible suggestions, but that was not one of them. The fact is that it sums up a misconception that people like Donald have, that crimes and offences are committed by chaps who go off the rails one Saturday night when they have a few pints in them. The fact is that the vast majority of offenders who come before the courts are unemployed, and a weekend jail sentence does not have the desired effect upon them. Let us look at the other things that are on offer, and particularly the farce of the conditional offer system, whereby the fiscal can, when someone admits an offence, impose a fiscal fine. Those fines are legally unenforceable. All that happens is that the person returns a letter, pleads guilty, encloses £5 for the first instalment and that is the end of it. There is no way in which enforcement action can be taken. Does the minister realise that? I do not think that he does. He should be beefing up the appropriate legislation to ensure that, if those fines are not paid, they can be dealt with by a means inquiry court in the normal system. We have to examine the alternatives to those fines. At present, a £200 fine not being paid results in three days' imprisonment. In Glasgow, there are few offenders who are likely to sacrifice 200 beer vouchers for the equivalent of three days in jail. I put forward those points in a constructive vein and I hope that the minister will address them.", "EditedTextHTML": "The fact is, as the member well knows—but possibly does not, because I appreciate that the Liberal Democrats are not kept fully in the picture with regard to the Executive's actions—that the 10 floating sheriffs were in the pipeline some time ago.

What other ticking bombs arise out of the ECHR? I direct the minister, helpfully, to address the matter of bail refusals, because it is likely to cause concern and considerable excitement in the months ahead.

I will turn to a matter that has not been raised today—at least, if it has, I have not heard it— which is juvenile offenders. Our system of dealing with juvenile offenders was determined under the Social Work (Scotland) Act 1968, which set up the system of children's panels. A 16-year-old in 1968 is a different animal from a 16-year-old today. Youngsters are maturing much earlier, in every aspect. Sadly, with regard to the criminal side of life they are maturing much earlier also.

The children's panel system has a useful and full role to play in respect of children who are genuinely at risk, and I do not wish to see that interfered with in any way, but I wonder, given that there is such a high recidivism rate under the existing legislation, whether it is time to beef up the act significantly, and certainly to make parents responsible in some respects for the misbehaviour of their children.

I appreciate that many of the kids who come

before the children's panel come from families that are maladjusted and dysfunctional in many ways, but at the end of the day something has to be done to make parents realise that they are responsible for crimes and offences that their children commit. The children's panel system was once cynically described to me by a leading Glasgow solicitor as the seed corn for our future. Steps should be taken to remove that concern.

On the matter of alternatives to custody, I was intrigued by Donald Gorrie's suggestion of weekend prison sentences. To my mind, Donald Gorrie frequently makes sensible suggestions, but that was not one of them. The fact is that it sums up a misconception that people like Donald have, that crimes and offences are committed by chaps who go off the rails one Saturday night when they have a few pints in them. The fact is that the vast majority of offenders who come before the courts are unemployed, and a weekend jail sentence does not have the desired effect upon them.

Let us look at the other things that are on offer, and particularly the farce of the conditional offer system, whereby the fiscal can, when someone admits an offence, impose a fiscal fine. Those fines are legally unenforceable. All that happens is that the person returns a letter, pleads guilty, encloses £5 for the first instalment and that is the end of it. There is no way in which enforcement action can be taken. Does the minister realise that? I do not think that he does. He should be beefing up the appropriate legislation to ensure that, if those fines are not paid, they can be dealt with by a means inquiry court in the normal system. We have to examine the alternatives to those fines. At present, a £200 fine not being paid results in three days' imprisonment. In Glasgow, there are few offenders who are likely to sacrifice 200 beer vouchers for the equivalent of three days in jail.

I put forward those points in a constructive vein and I hope that the minister will address them.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2010E221P512C712434", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Paterson, Gil", "ID": 2010, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Gil Paterson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Gil Paterson (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 215.0, "ContributionID": 712434, "EditedText": "I have no doubt that this Tory-initiated debate is intended to centre on the Conservatives' supposedly impeccable record on law and order, as against the fact that Labour has allowed the country to go to rack and ruin. I have no intention of getting involved in the shouting match about who is tougher on crime, who puts more police on the street, or similar arguments. I want to examine the importance of developing communities as a whole rather than as the sum of their parts. Any community is dependent on a number of different factors for its prosperity, both social and economic. Education, opportunity, employment, housing, leisure and justice are all important. When a community is deprived of any of those ingredients, its strength as a group of people living and working together breaks down. Even the Government has acknowledged that those who live in communities that are blighted by poverty are more likely to suffer vandalism or crime. Does it not occur to the Executive that investment in police is investment in our communities? Did it not consider, when examining its financial allocation to the police, that underfunding the Strathclyde police force by almost £10 million, and thereby leaving it short of 350 people, would have an impact on other policies? Did it not occur to the Executive that, when it cut money from local authority budgets and forced councils to find around £100 million in efficiency savings to meet Government-enforced self-financing pay awards, councils would cut services? There have been cutbacks to social services, which are vital when it comes to minimising crime and providing support for victims. Cutbacks to leisure services, which provided youngsters with opportunity and a diversion from anti-social activities and behaviour, are best summed up by the phrase, \"The devil makes work for idle hands.\" Is the Executive so bankrupt of imagination that it cannot see that those factors combine with destructive effect? What use is much-hailed investment in homes, if it is undermined by an inability to keep them free from vandalism because there are too few police and too many youngsters with nowhere to go and nothing to do? I have no doubt that press notices trumpeting money for new homes—and the associated photocalls—are more attractive than a press notice that says that civic Scotland is agreed that police forces are adequately funded. However, good government is not about photocalls; it is about policy. Before the Conservative party gets too complacent, let me remind it that it was responsible for cutting around £300 million from local government budgets during the last two years that it was in office. During John Major's infamous recession, car crime in Scotland increased by 80 per cent, while housebreaking increased by almost a quarter. Two months ago, the Parliament debated crime prevention. In the course of that debate, it found that strong communities—more bobbies on the beat, manned police stations, visible policing methods and so on—were important in crime prevention. Community partnerships, community security and the provision of facilities to enable those were the order of the day. I ask members to note that all those policies centre on the notion of community. We should remember that it was the Conservative party's neglect during its 18 years in office that destroyed communities. The SNP believes in communities and society, but—", "EditedTextHTML": "I have no doubt that this Tory-initiated debate is intended to centre on the Conservatives' supposedly impeccable record on law and order, as against the fact that Labour has allowed the country to go to rack and ruin. I have no intention of getting involved in the shouting match about who is tougher on crime, who puts more police on the street, or similar arguments. I want to examine the importance of developing communities as a whole rather than as the sum of their parts.

Any community is dependent on a number of different factors for its prosperity, both social and economic. Education, opportunity, employment, housing, leisure and justice are all important. When a community is deprived of any of those ingredients, its strength as a group of people living and working together breaks down.

Even the Government has acknowledged that those who live in communities that are blighted by poverty are more likely to suffer vandalism or crime. Does it not occur to the Executive that investment in police is investment in our communities? Did it not consider, when examining its financial allocation to the police, that underfunding the Strathclyde police force by almost £10 million, and thereby leaving it short of 350 people, would have an impact on other policies? Did it not occur to the Executive that, when it cut money from local authority budgets and forced councils to find around £100 million in efficiency savings to meet Government-enforced self-financing pay awards, councils would cut services?

There have been cutbacks to social services, which are vital when it comes to minimising crime and providing support for victims. Cutbacks to leisure services, which provided youngsters with opportunity and a diversion from anti-social activities and behaviour, are best summed up by the phrase, \"The devil makes work for idle hands.\" Is the Executive so bankrupt of imagination that it cannot see that those factors combine with destructive effect?

What use is much-hailed investment in homes, if it is undermined by an inability to keep them free from vandalism because there are too few police and too many youngsters with nowhere to go and nothing to do? I have no doubt that press notices trumpeting money for new homes—and the associated photocalls—are more attractive than a press notice that says that civic Scotland is agreed that police forces are adequately funded. However, good government is not about photocalls; it is about policy.

Before the Conservative party gets too complacent, let me remind it that it was responsible for cutting around £300 million from local government budgets during the last two years that it was in office. During John Major's infamous recession, car crime in Scotland increased by 80 per cent, while housebreaking increased by almost a quarter.

Two months ago, the Parliament debated crime prevention. In the course of that debate, it found that strong communities—more bobbies on the beat, manned police stations, visible policing methods and so on—were important in crime prevention. Community partnerships, community security and the provision of facilities to enable those were the order of the day. I ask members to note that all those policies centre on the notion of community. We should remember that it was the Conservative party's neglect during its 18 years in office that destroyed communities. The SNP believes in communities and society, but—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C712440", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 228.0, "ContributionID": 712440, "EditedText": "They are Labour councils.", "EditedTextHTML": "They are Labour councils.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6076102+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2108E50P256C712444", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macintosh, Ken", "ID": 2108, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Eastwood" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ken Macintosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Kenneth Macintosh (Eastwood) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 237.0, "ContributionID": 712444, "EditedText": "I say to Mr Gallie and Mr McLetchie that I would share the concerns expressed in their motion if I felt that the Scottish Executive was in some way not committed to clamping down on and fighting crime, but there is no doubt that it is. We are committed to maintaining and funding an effective police force. We are all concerned at the rising number of drug-related deaths and the blight that drug-related crime causes our communities. We are setting up a drugs enforcement agency to tackle that problem. Ultimately, Mr Gallie's motion leads us to a sterile debate about figures and who is doing what. That brings me to my key point. Most members agree on the importance of clamping down on crime, but the implication of this motion is that only by being tough on crime can the problem be tackled. The question to be answered, therefore, is, \"How tough on crime should we be?\" It is a \"We'll be tougher than you\" approach. I do not want to bandy around statistics, but I do not accept that we are soft on criminals or crime. There is no doubt about our commitment to punishing those who break our laws and terrorise our neighbourhoods with their activities. The other implication of the motion is that by being ever tougher one can provide a solution; that more and more police officers and more and more prisons will rid society of crime. That is a simplistic and misleading approach. Crime is an extremely complex matter. It defies easy solutions and requires an altogether more sophisticated approach than the hang 'em and flog 'em attitudes outlined here.", "EditedTextHTML": "I say to Mr Gallie and Mr McLetchie that I would share the concerns expressed in their motion if I felt that the Scottish Executive was in some way not committed to clamping down on and fighting crime, but there is no doubt that it is. We are committed to maintaining and funding an effective police force. We are all concerned at the rising number of drug-related deaths and the blight that drug-related crime causes our communities. We are setting up a drugs enforcement agency to tackle that problem.

Ultimately, Mr Gallie's motion leads us to a sterile debate about figures and who is doing what. That brings me to my key point. Most members agree on the importance of clamping down on crime, but the implication of this motion is that only by being tough on crime can the problem be tackled. The question to be answered, therefore, is, \"How tough on crime should we be?\" It is a \"We'll be tougher than you\" approach. I do not want to bandy around statistics, but I do not accept that we are soft on criminals or crime. There is no doubt about our commitment to punishing those who break our laws and terrorise our neighbourhoods with their activities.

The other implication of the motion is that by being ever tougher one can provide a solution; that more and more police officers and more and more prisons will rid society of crime. That is a simplistic and misleading approach. Crime is an extremely complex matter. It defies easy solutions and requires an altogether more sophisticated approach than the hang 'em and flog 'em attitudes outlined here.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6076102+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C712445", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 239.0, "ContributionID": 712445, "EditedText": "Will Mr Macintosh take on board the fact that we are not looking for more and more prison spaces and more and more police? We simply ask—as far as the police go—that targets be met and that no more reductions be made. Similarly, with respect to prisons, we would be delighted if a reduction in prison numbers was justified, but a reduction is not being suggested by the statisticians.", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr Macintosh take on board the fact that we are not looking for more and more prison spaces and more and more police? We simply ask—as far as the police go—that targets be met and that no more reductions be made. Similarly, with respect to prisons, we would be delighted if a reduction in prison numbers was justified, but a reduction is not being suggested by the statisticians.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6076102+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2108E50P256C712448", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macintosh, Ken", "ID": 2108, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Eastwood" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ken Macintosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Macintosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 245.0, "ContributionID": 712448, "EditedText": "If only Mr Monteith had delivered that speech instead of Mrs Thatcher, what she intended to say would perhaps have been clearer.", "EditedTextHTML": "If only Mr Monteith had delivered that speech instead of Mrs Thatcher, what she intended to say would perhaps have been clearer.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6076102+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C712449", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 247.0, "ContributionID": 712449, "EditedText": "Has Mr Macintosh read the speech?", "EditedTextHTML": "

Has Mr Macintosh read the speech?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6076102+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1814E135P516C712452", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Fabiani, Linda", "ID": 1814, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Linda Fabiani", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Linda Fabiani (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 254.0, "ContributionID": 712452, "EditedText": "I will use my allotted time to address an issue that is noted in our amendment and to which Michael Matheson and others have alluded: I wish to speak on behalf of the victims of crime.According to the most recent Scottish Executive figures, 20,000 crimes are committed every week in Scotland, around half of which are never reported to the authorities. Every year, one in 20 adults is the victim of a personal crime. Everyone in the chamber has been affected by crime in some way. Perhaps some of us have even been direct victims. I have never been the direct victim of a serious crime, but over the years I have suffered petty crime and, on occasion, the fear of potential crime. That felt bad. Although I have met and spoken to the victims of serious crimes, I cannot begin to imagine the trauma and stress that is experienced by people who are personally damaged or who lose a loved one through crime. As Victim Support Scotland tells us, the physical and emotional toll of crime on victims can be enormous. Its experience is that, above all, victims seek recognition of their suffering. Our present system denies victims that recognition. It also denies them the benefit of effective programmes to alleviate the effects of crimes. In 1985, the general assembly of the United Nations adopted the Declaration of Basic Principles of Justice for Victims of Crimes and Abuse of Power. Although the UK Government signed up to that declaration a year later, we have a long way to go to ensure that Scots victims of crime have the same level of rights as people elsewhere, including people in other parts of the United Kingdom. It is true that, due to our criminal justice system, we may need to use different remedies, but the needs of victims are the same from Glasgow to Greenwich. With the right spirit, this Parliament can move ahead in this important area. The minister's commitment today to support and strategy is not enough. Victims require and deserve defined rights. As Michael Matheson said, in England and Wales there is the victims charter; in Northern Ireland there is the code of practice for victims of crime. Those documents cover standards such as the provision of case progress information, witness support, and protection. The England and Wales charter sets out 27 standards of service that victims can expect from the criminal justice agencies. It explains which agency is responsible for providing which service and how victims can complain if they do not get the promised level of service. Current pilot projects include one to enable victims to make a statement to the authorities about the effects of the crime, and there is a witness support service in Crown and magistrates courts. That all sounds like good practice that we should pursue here. Michael Matheson charged the Executive to introduce proposals for a victims charter. I believe that such an initiative would receive cross-party support, and we might even achieve consensus. A first step would be to support Michael Matheson's amendment and, in doing so, recognise that our present system does not serve victims of crime well.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will use my allotted time to address an issue that is noted in our amendment and to which Michael Matheson and others have alluded: I wish to

speak on behalf of the victims of crime.

According to the most recent Scottish Executive figures, 20,000 crimes are committed every week in Scotland, around half of which are never reported to the authorities. Every year, one in 20 adults is the victim of a personal crime. Everyone in the chamber has been affected by crime in some way. Perhaps some of us have even been direct victims.

I have never been the direct victim of a serious crime, but over the years I have suffered petty crime and, on occasion, the fear of potential crime. That felt bad. Although I have met and spoken to the victims of serious crimes, I cannot begin to imagine the trauma and stress that is experienced by people who are personally damaged or who lose a loved one through crime. As Victim Support Scotland tells us, the physical and emotional toll of crime on victims can be enormous. Its experience is that, above all, victims seek recognition of their suffering. Our present system denies victims that recognition. It also denies them the benefit of effective programmes to alleviate the effects of crimes.

In 1985, the general assembly of the United Nations adopted the Declaration of Basic Principles of Justice for Victims of Crimes and Abuse of Power. Although the UK Government signed up to that declaration a year later, we have a long way to go to ensure that Scots victims of crime have the same level of rights as people elsewhere, including people in other parts of the United Kingdom. It is true that, due to our criminal justice system, we may need to use different remedies, but the needs of victims are the same from Glasgow to Greenwich. With the right spirit, this Parliament can move ahead in this important area.

The minister's commitment today to support and strategy is not enough. Victims require and deserve defined rights. As Michael Matheson said, in England and Wales there is the victims charter; in Northern Ireland there is the code of practice for victims of crime. Those documents cover standards such as the provision of case progress information, witness support, and protection. The England and Wales charter sets out 27 standards of service that victims can expect from the criminal justice agencies. It explains which agency is responsible for providing which service and how victims can complain if they do not get the promised level of service. Current pilot projects include one to enable victims to make a statement to the authorities about the effects of the crime, and there is a witness support service in Crown and magistrates courts.

That all sounds like good practice that we should pursue here. Michael Matheson charged the Executive to introduce proposals for a victims charter. I believe that such an initiative would receive cross-party support, and we might even achieve consensus. A first step would be to support Michael Matheson's amendment and, in doing so, recognise that our present system does not serve victims of crime well.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6076102+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1752E75P296C712453", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jamieson, Cathy", "ID": 1752, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Cathy Jamieson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Cathy Jamieson (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 257.0, "ContributionID": 712453, "EditedText": "I want to outline a few reasons why I support the Executive amendment. In yesterday's debate on social inclusion, we heard several criticisms about measures not being radical or visionary, practical or deliverable. The Executive's amendment is radical, visionary, practical and deliverable—we have already begun to deliver. I do not hold any brief for people who commit violent crimes—there are many people in prison who should stay there for a long time—but there are many people in prison who should not be there, such as people who have defaulted on fines because they cannot afford to pay. Where is the best value in spending a lot of money locking up poor people, when that money could be spent on diversionary schemes to keep them out of custody? I have heard nothing from the Tories this morning to convince me about that. Linda Fabiani made a good speech about witness support schemes. In general, the SNP is keen for us to examine what happens in Scandinavia and other countries of a similar size to Scotland. Why is it that Scotland continues to lock up more young offenders per head of population than other countries, rather than put resources into community-based alternatives? That is what the Executive amendment is about. Like many members, I am concerned about the victims of crime. I support the initiative on the victims charter. Recently, I met representatives of East Ayrshire victim support, which is doing some very good work. It told me that it could not get referrals because of problems surrounding the Data Protection Act 1998. In the past, the police were able automatically to inform it of victims of crime. That is one of the anomalies that we can sort out. In South Ayrshire, Victim Support Scotland has piloted a witness support scheme that provides a good model.", "EditedTextHTML": "I want to outline a few reasons why I support the Executive amendment. In yesterday's debate on social inclusion, we heard several criticisms about measures not being radical or visionary, practical or deliverable. The Executive's amendment is radical, visionary, practical and deliverable—we have already begun to deliver.

I do not hold any brief for people who commit violent crimes—there are many people in prison who should stay there for a long time—but there are many people in prison who should not be there, such as people who have defaulted on fines because they cannot afford to pay. Where is the best value in spending a lot of money locking up poor people, when that money could be spent on diversionary schemes to keep them out of custody? I have heard nothing from the Tories this morning to convince me about that.

Linda Fabiani made a good speech about witness support schemes. In general, the SNP is keen for us to examine what happens in Scandinavia and other countries of a similar size to Scotland. Why is it that Scotland continues to lock up more young offenders per head of population than other countries, rather than put resources into community-based alternatives? That is what the Executive amendment is about.

Like many members, I am concerned about the victims of crime. I support the initiative on the victims charter. Recently, I met representatives of East Ayrshire victim support, which is doing some very good work. It told me that it could not get referrals because of problems surrounding the Data Protection Act 1998. In the past, the police were able automatically to inform it of victims of crime. That is one of the anomalies that we can sort out. In South Ayrshire, Victim Support Scotland has piloted a witness support scheme that provides a good model.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6076102+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1752E75P296C712455", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jamieson, Cathy", "ID": 1752, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Cathy Jamieson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Cathy Jamieson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 261.0, "ContributionID": 712455, "EditedText": "Phil Gallie will be aware of my previous work in a scheme for young offenders, which tried to divert them from custody. It would be inappropriate for me to comment on a particular case without knowing the full background. However, I share Phil Gallie's concern that the punishment should fit the crime. In reality, prison is not always the most appropriate punishment. Many of the community- based alternatives give greater opportunities to bring offenders and the victims of crimes together—perhaps not always face to face—so that offenders gain some understanding of the impact of crime. I believe that community-based alternatives give more opportunity for young people to examine and change their behaviour— that is the most important thing. I want to mention the relationship between police and communities, which is referred to in the Executive amendment. One of the most damaging aspects of the relationship between the police and the community that I represent relates to a matter about which the Tories have selective amnesia— the damage done at the time of the miners strike. It has taken years to rebuild that community relationship. Rebuilding is happening through initiatives such as the safe barshare project in Cumnock and the involvement of community police in running a youth football league. Those projects take some of the young people we are discussing off the streets on a Friday night, preventing them from becoming involved in drinking and hanging around the town centre. They do something constructive instead. That is how we should proceed. We should support the Executive amendment and get on and tackle the problems constructively.", "EditedTextHTML": "Phil Gallie will be aware of my previous work in a scheme for young offenders, which tried to divert them from custody. It would be inappropriate for me to comment on a particular case without knowing the full background. However, I share Phil Gallie's concern that the punishment should fit the crime.

In reality, prison is not always the most appropriate punishment. Many of the community- based alternatives give greater opportunities to bring offenders and the victims of crimes together—perhaps not always face to face—so that offenders gain some understanding of the impact of crime. I believe that community-based alternatives give more opportunity for young people to examine and change their behaviour— that is the most important thing.

I want to mention the relationship between police and communities, which is referred to in the Executive amendment. One of the most damaging aspects of the relationship between the police and the community that I represent relates to a matter about which the Tories have selective amnesia— the damage done at the time of the miners strike. It has taken years to rebuild that community relationship. Rebuilding is happening through initiatives such as the safe barshare project in Cumnock and the involvement of community police in running a youth football league. Those projects take some of the young people we are discussing off the streets on a Friday night, preventing them from becoming involved in drinking and hanging around the town centre. They do something constructive instead. That is how we should proceed.

We should support the Executive amendment and get on and tackle the problems constructively.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6076102+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C712468", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Angus MacKay: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 292.0, "ContributionID": 712468, "EditedText": "No, not at the moment.On the predictions of chaos and disruption in the courts, I wholly refute any suggestion that that will take place. There will be some disruption, in particular to civil business; the Deputy First Minister acknowledged that in his statement on 11 November. However, there is no doubt that the judiciary and the court staff are working hard to minimise any difficulties, and we have confidence in their ability to do so. In the district courts, the procurators fiscal—under guidance from the Lord Advocate—have taken action as a precautionary measure. I refer to some of the points raised during thedebate. Penninghame prison has been mentioned more than once. For some reason, people seem to be reluctant to take on board the view of Her Majesty's chief inspector of prisons, Clive Fairweather, whose response to the closure announcement was pretty unequivocal. He stated that the prison \"is in a very isolated location, especially for family contact.\"That is one reason why it was deemed unsuitable. He also said: \"One of the other open prisons in Scotland, at Noranside, near Dundee, is under capacity . . . It seems sensible to rationalise here.\" Prison Service staff at Penninghame do a good job. However, the chief inspector said that it would be sensible to rationalise, because the prison is remote for visits and for getting help there in the event of an emergency. It also has inflexible accommodation. I hope that that deals with the points on Penninghame, at least in part. On the subject of Longriggend, the chief inspector of prisons said that \"there have been a number of suicides among the young male remands there, so sending them elsewhere is a very major step forward.\" That point should not be underestimated.Mr Matheson commented on victim support and, in effect, accused the Executive of doing nothing— or at least not doing enough—for victims. Nothing could be further from the truth. We have recognised witnesses' needs by making a commitment to extend the availability of the successful witness support schemes that are running in the sheriff courts at Airdrie, Hamilton and Kirkcaldy to those at Kilmarnock, Dunfermline and Cupar. That commitment will be delivered shortly. The schemes will be managed by Victim Support Scotland and will provide a comprehensive service of advice and support to all witnesses. I would have talked further on the subject, but am prevented by lack of time. Kenny Gibson made an interesting speech at incredibly high speed, possibly talking even faster than I am at the moment. His performance was such that I felt he might close his speech by saying, \"My name's Ben Elton—thank you and goodnight.\" He should know that, with my ministerial responsibilities, I do not approve of speed in any circumstances, so I will be critical of what he had to say. I have two points that relate to Kenny's speech. The first is about Strathclyde police and capital allocation. Last year, 1998-99, Strathclyde received £6.2 million in capital allocation. In the current year, it has received £9.7 million; that is a significant increase. Secondly, Kenny made a point about crime inStrathclyde. The chief constable, John Orr, said that between April and September 1999—hardly a long time ago—crime in the Strathclyde force area fell by almost 7 per cent compared with the equivalent period last year. He also said that early predictions that the force would be on track to enter the millennium with crime figures at a 19year low were on target. That is encouraging news for everyone.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, not at the moment.

On the predictions of chaos and disruption in the courts, I wholly refute any suggestion that that will take place. There will be some disruption, in particular to civil business; the Deputy First Minister acknowledged that in his statement on 11 November. However, there is no doubt that the judiciary and the court staff are working hard to minimise any difficulties, and we have confidence in their ability to do so. In the district courts, the procurators fiscal—under guidance from the Lord Advocate—have taken action as a precautionary measure.

I refer to some of the points raised during the

debate. Penninghame prison has been mentioned more than once. For some reason, people seem to be reluctant to take on board the view of Her Majesty's chief inspector of prisons, Clive Fairweather, whose response to the closure announcement was pretty unequivocal. He stated that the prison

\"is in a very isolated location, especially for family contact.\"

That is one reason why it was deemed unsuitable. He also said:

\"One of the other open prisons in Scotland, at Noranside, near Dundee, is under capacity . . . It seems sensible to rationalise here.\"

Prison Service staff at Penninghame do a good job. However, the chief inspector said that it would be sensible to rationalise, because the prison is remote for visits and for getting help there in the event of an emergency. It also has inflexible accommodation. I hope that that deals with the points on Penninghame, at least in part.

On the subject of Longriggend, the chief inspector of prisons said that

\"there have been a number of suicides among the young male remands there, so sending them elsewhere is a very major step forward.\"

That point should not be underestimated.

Mr Matheson commented on victim support and, in effect, accused the Executive of doing nothing— or at least not doing enough—for victims. Nothing could be further from the truth. We have recognised witnesses' needs by making a commitment to extend the availability of the successful witness support schemes that are running in the sheriff courts at Airdrie, Hamilton and Kirkcaldy to those at Kilmarnock, Dunfermline and Cupar. That commitment will be delivered shortly. The schemes will be managed by Victim Support Scotland and will provide a comprehensive service of advice and support to all witnesses. I would have talked further on the subject, but am prevented by lack of time.

Kenny Gibson made an interesting speech at incredibly high speed, possibly talking even faster than I am at the moment. His performance was such that I felt he might close his speech by saying, \"My name's Ben Elton—thank you and goodnight.\" He should know that, with my ministerial responsibilities, I do not approve of speed in any circumstances, so I will be critical of what he had to say.

I have two points that relate to Kenny's speech. The first is about Strathclyde police and capital allocation. Last year, 1998-99, Strathclyde received £6.2 million in capital allocation. In the current year, it has received £9.7 million; that is a significant increase.

Secondly, Kenny made a point about crime in

Strathclyde. The chief constable, John Orr, said that between April and September 1999—hardly a long time ago—crime in the Strathclyde force area fell by almost 7 per cent compared with the equivalent period last year. He also said that early predictions that the force would be on track to enter the millennium with crime figures at a 19year low were on target. That is encouraging news for everyone.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6076102+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C712473", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 303.0, "ContributionID": 712473, "EditedText": "I could not agree more with the minister. I am simply saying that I would like to free up time for more police officers to perform more work on our streets, and that the Executive is cutting their number. That fact is one of the chiels that winna ding in the debate. There is no denying it.", "EditedTextHTML": "I could not agree more with the minister. I am simply saying that I would like to free up time for more police officers to perform more work on our streets, and that the Executive is cutting their number. That fact is one of the chiels that winna ding in the debate. There is no denying it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6076102+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C712479", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 315.0, "ContributionID": 712479, "EditedText": "Is Mr Raffan calling the chairman of the Scottish Police Federation a liar? Is he wrong? Will Mr Raffan deny what he said? He will not. I ask him to stop citing selective figures, or I shall withdraw the complimentary comments that I was going to make about him. As crime rates are rising, it is appalling that funding for Victim Support Scotland was cut last year, in real terms, for the first time in that organisation's 12-year history. I was interested to hear of some of the local initiatives that are helping victim support groups. Cathy Jamieson spoke ably about victim support groups in her community. As Michael Matheson, Euan Robson and others have said, we must acknowledge the fact that our criminal justice system is still failing to give adequate consideration to keeping the victims of crime and their families informed. There is far too much insensitivity in the treatment of victims and families. We heard about the circumstances of Mr and Mrs Godley. Earlier this week, Mr and Mrs Ayton saw the killers of their son released at half time, on the second anniversary of their son's murder. What an insensitive, inhumane way to treat families. Irrespective of what one may think about the sentence or the fact that convicted criminals can be let out at half time, the fact that the release should be allowed to happen on that particular day is an appalling indictment of the insensitivity of the service. Frankly, it is not good enough, and I hope that the minister will examine that case so that it is not repeated in future. I said that I would compliment Mr Raffan, and I acknowledge his useful contribution, and that of Richard Simpson, on the drugs problem. This Parliament is crying out for a debate on the subject—I was pleased to hear the minister come up with that suggestion and I hope that the Executive will provide time for it. We are crying out for a co-ordinated approach to tackling the whole problem, but it appears to me that, at the moment, there are too many people and too many agencies in conflict with one another about where we should be going. It is up to the Executive and the Parliament to bring the various bodies together and, if necessary, to knock some heads together, so that we can develop and test an all-embracing strategy on which we are all agreed. I was interested to hear about Angus MacKay's visit to Ireland. I make no apology for our criticism of the direct incorporation of the European convention on human rights into Scots law. We signed up to the convention and there is no question of the United Kingdom withdrawing from it, but the issue is the direct applicability that came into effect only as a result of the Human Rights Act 1998, passed by the Labour Government. That is what we object to and that is what we opposed at the time of the passage of that legislation.", "EditedTextHTML": "Is Mr Raffan calling the chairman of the Scottish Police Federation a liar? Is he wrong? Will Mr Raffan deny what he said? He will not. I ask him to stop citing selective figures, or I shall withdraw the complimentary comments that I was going to make about him.

As crime rates are rising, it is appalling that funding for Victim Support Scotland was cut last year, in real terms, for the first time in that organisation's 12-year history. I was interested to hear of some of the local initiatives that are helping victim support groups. Cathy Jamieson spoke ably about victim support groups in her community. As Michael Matheson, Euan Robson and others have said, we must acknowledge the fact that our criminal justice system is still failing to give adequate consideration to keeping the victims of crime and their families informed.

There is far too much insensitivity in the treatment of victims and families. We heard about the circumstances of Mr and Mrs Godley. Earlier this week, Mr and Mrs Ayton saw the killers of their son released at half time, on the second anniversary of their son's murder. What an insensitive, inhumane way to treat families. Irrespective of what one may think about the sentence or the fact that convicted criminals can be let out at half time, the fact that the release should be allowed to happen on that particular day is an appalling indictment of the insensitivity of the service. Frankly, it is not good enough, and I hope that the minister will examine that case so that it is not repeated in future.

I said that I would compliment Mr Raffan, and I acknowledge his useful contribution, and that of Richard Simpson, on the drugs problem. This Parliament is crying out for a debate on the subject—I was pleased to hear the minister come up with that suggestion and I hope that the Executive will provide time for it. We are crying out for a co-ordinated approach to tackling the whole problem, but it appears to me that, at the moment, there are too many people and too many agencies in conflict with one another about where we should be going. It is up to the Executive and the Parliament to bring the various bodies together and, if necessary, to knock some heads together, so that we can develop and test an all-embracing strategy on which we are all agreed.

I was interested to hear about Angus MacKay's visit to Ireland. I make no apology for our criticism of the direct incorporation of the European convention on human rights into Scots law. We signed up to the convention and there is no question of the United Kingdom withdrawing from it, but the issue is the direct applicability that came into effect only as a result of the Human Rights Act 1998, passed by the Labour Government. That is what we object to and that is what we opposed at the time of the passage of that legislation.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6076102+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C712480", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Jim Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 317.0, "ContributionID": 712480, "EditedText": "I am grateful to Mr McLetchie for clarifying that. Since 1966, any individual has had the right to go to the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg to take up such cases. It seems that he is quite content for individuals to have that right, but not to allow them to enforce it in the domestic courts. Is he saying that one should be able to enforce those rights only if one is wealthy enough to go to Strasbourg?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful to Mr McLetchie for clarifying that. Since 1966, any individual has had the right to go to the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg to take up such cases. It seems that he is quite content for individuals to have that right, but not to allow them to enforce it in the domestic courts. Is he saying that one should be able to enforce those rights only if one is wealthy enough to go to Strasbourg?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6076102+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C712481", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 319.0, "ContributionID": 712481, "EditedText": "That is not true. People who require resources can get legal aid, as Mr Wallace well knows. As a result of a particular ruling on one case on the European convention on human rights and the changes that his Administration has made, the whole courts system in Scotland has been thrown into dislocation and the Government now has a major problem to tackle. Had a ruling been made under the previous system, this Administration would have had a suitable period of time in which to address the issue, as has happened in the past. That is the difference, and that is where Mr Wallace and his colleagues are in error. I have many other things to say, but my time is drawing to a close. I simply say that we are not getting joined-up government from this Administration. The prison closure programme is a disgrace; Michael Matheson made an excellent point about that when he said that it is incompatible with the trend of rising crime rates and possible rises in the prison population. Decisions have been taken prematurely before such trends have been properly established, and the Executive will live to regret them. Just to set the record straight, Lord James Douglas-Hamilton's time in Dungavel was not as a juvenile offender but as a child, as Dungavel was formerly his family home. I take issue with what Richard Simpson and Jim Wallace said. They tried to suggest that there were no more criminals, just more crimes. Are we to conclude from that that, under Labour, the criminal productivity ratio is actually improving in this country? That seems to be complete nonsense. Quite frankly, enough is enough. We have heard a lot this week about social inclusion targets. Any serious attempt to tackle social exclusion has to come up with solutions to the problems of crime and drug abuse. Kenneth Macintosh said that he did not doubt the funding commitment of the Executive. That commitment is not borne out by the spending plans just published by Mr McConnell. That document gives the lie to what Angus MacKay said about increased prisons funding. I remind him that the totals that Mr McConnell published are: for million; and for 2001-02, £210.5 million. In my arithmetic, that is a reduction, not an increase. I suggest that he tries to get some more money out of Mr McConnell's budget. If we are serious about tackling social inclusion, we must look at the tens of millions of pounds that have been wasted on Scottish housing estates because the efforts of decent, law-abiding, hardworking people to build new communities have been undermined by the lawless, the criminals and the vandals who have no respect for property or their communities. The criminal justice system, the imperative of a secure, safe society, must be in place before anything else can be built. That is why we complain about the Executive's priorities. At question time last week, the First Minister challenged me, as I criticised what the Executive was spending money on at the expense of law and order, to say where the money for it would come from. I will tell him. Yesterday Parliament passed a motion redirecting £80 million to education—that was the price of the Lib-Lab coalition. That £80 million should have been used for 500 more police officers, so that we do not lay off 400 prison officers or close two prisons, and, most important, to adhere to the Liberal Democrat manifesto promise to abolish tuition fees. There would have been enough to do all those things. That is why I say that the Executive's priorities are perverse. Jim Wallace, the Minister for Justice, cannot cut the mustard and get the budget that Scotland's police require and that is needed for a secure society. Jim Wallace and the Liberal Democrats do not have the solution for law and order; they are part of the problem.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is not true. People who require resources can get legal aid, as Mr Wallace

well knows. As a result of a particular ruling on one case on the European convention on human rights and the changes that his Administration has made, the whole courts system in Scotland has been thrown into dislocation and the Government now has a major problem to tackle. Had a ruling been made under the previous system, this Administration would have had a suitable period of time in which to address the issue, as has happened in the past. That is the difference, and that is where Mr Wallace and his colleagues are in error.

I have many other things to say, but my time is drawing to a close. I simply say that we are not getting joined-up government from this Administration. The prison closure programme is a disgrace; Michael Matheson made an excellent point about that when he said that it is incompatible with the trend of rising crime rates and possible rises in the prison population. Decisions have been taken prematurely before such trends have been properly established, and the Executive will live to regret them.

Just to set the record straight, Lord James Douglas-Hamilton's time in Dungavel was not as a juvenile offender but as a child, as Dungavel was formerly his family home.

I take issue with what Richard Simpson and Jim Wallace said. They tried to suggest that there were no more criminals, just more crimes. Are we to conclude from that that, under Labour, the criminal productivity ratio is actually improving in this country? That seems to be complete nonsense.

Quite frankly, enough is enough. We have heard a lot this week about social inclusion targets. Any serious attempt to tackle social exclusion has to come up with solutions to the problems of crime and drug abuse.

Kenneth Macintosh said that he did not doubt the funding commitment of the Executive. That commitment is not borne out by the spending plans just published by Mr McConnell. That document gives the lie to what Angus MacKay said about increased prisons funding. I remind him that the totals that Mr McConnell published are: for million; and for 2001-02, £210.5 million. In my arithmetic, that is a reduction, not an increase. I suggest that he tries to get some more money out of Mr McConnell's budget.

If we are serious about tackling social inclusion, we must look at the tens of millions of pounds that have been wasted on Scottish housing estates because the efforts of decent, law-abiding, hardworking people to build new communities have been undermined by the lawless, the criminals and the vandals who have no respect for property or their communities. The criminal justice system, the imperative of a secure, safe society, must be in place before anything else can be built. That is why we complain about the Executive's priorities.

At question time last week, the First Minister challenged me, as I criticised what the Executive was spending money on at the expense of law and order, to say where the money for it would come from. I will tell him. Yesterday Parliament passed a motion redirecting £80 million to education—that was the price of the Lib-Lab coalition. That £80 million should have been used for 500 more police officers, so that we do not lay off 400 prison officers or close two prisons, and, most important, to adhere to the Liberal Democrat manifesto promise to abolish tuition fees. There would have been enough to do all those things.

That is why I say that the Executive's priorities are perverse. Jim Wallace, the Minister for Justice, cannot cut the mustard and get the budget that Scotland's police require and that is needed for a secure society. Jim Wallace and the Liberal Democrats do not have the solution for law and order; they are part of the problem.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6076102+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C712482", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 321.0, "ContributionID": 712482, "EditedText": "That concludes the debate on law and order.", "EditedTextHTML": "That concludes the debate on law and order.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6076102+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C712483", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27111, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 323.0, "ID": 27111, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 324.0, "ContributionID": 712483, "EditedText": "The next item of business is consideration of business motion S1M-315, in the name of Tom McCabe, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau. Any member who wishes to speak against the motion should press their request button now.", "EditedTextHTML": "The next item of business is consideration of business motion S1M-315, in the name of Tom McCabe, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau.

Any member who wishes to speak against the motion should press their request button now.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6076102+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712484", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27111, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 323.0, "ID": 27111, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 326.0, "ContributionID": 712484, "EditedText": "Motion moved,", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion moved,

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6076102+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712486", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27111, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 323.0, "ID": 27111, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 328.0, "ContributionID": 712486, "EditedText": "Wednesday 1 December 1999", "EditedTextHTML": "Wednesday 1 December 1999

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6076102+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712488", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27111, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 323.0, "ID": 27111, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 330.0, "ContributionID": 712488, "EditedText": "5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business debate on the subject of S1M-238, Cathy Jamieson: Co-operative and Mutual Sector in Scotland", "EditedTextHTML": "5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business debate on the subject of S1M-238, Cathy Jamieson: Co-operative and Mutual Sector in Scotland

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6076102+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712489", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27111, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 323.0, "ID": 27111, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 331.0, "ContributionID": 712489, "EditedText": "Thursday 2 December 1999", "EditedTextHTML": "Thursday 2 December 1999

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6076102+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712490", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27111, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 323.0, "ID": 27111, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 332.0, "ContributionID": 712490, "EditedText": "9.30 am Debate on a motion by the Scottish National Party followed by Business Motion followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions", "EditedTextHTML": "9.30 am Debate on a motion by the Scottish National Party followed by Business Motion followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6076102+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712493", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27111, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 323.0, "ID": 27111, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 335.0, "ContributionID": 712493, "EditedText": "5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business debate on the subject of S1M-287, Bruce Crawford: European Freight and Passenger Terminal In Fife", "EditedTextHTML": "5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business debate on the subject of S1M-287, Bruce Crawford: European Freight and Passenger Terminal In Fife

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6076102+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712501", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27111, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 323.0, "ID": 27111, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 343.0, "ContributionID": 712501, "EditedText": "5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business—Mr McCabe.", "EditedTextHTML": "5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business—[Mr McCabe.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6076102+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C712502", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27111, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 323.0, "ID": 27111, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 344.0, "ContributionID": 712502, "EditedText": "No member has asked to speak against the motion. The question is, that business motion S1M-315 be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "No member has asked to speak against the motion. The question is, that business motion S1M-315 be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6076102+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712503", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27111, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 323.0, "ID": 27111, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 346.0, "ContributionID": 712503, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6076102+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C712508", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27112, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 352.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27113, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 353.0, "QuestionHeading": "Prime Minister (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27114, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 354.0, "DisplayOrder": 354.0, "ID": 27114, "ParentID": 27113 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 357.0, "ContributionID": 712508, "EditedText": "Will the First Minister congratulate the Prime Minister and his wife on the forthcoming addition to their family? Does he agree that all children should be born with equal rights, whether they are the children of the most powerful person in the land or the one in three of Scotland's children who live in poverty? Why should it take as long as 20 years to eradicate child poverty, which means that many children born in Scotland today will be condemned to suffer poverty during their entire childhood?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the First Minister congratulate the Prime Minister and his wife on the forthcoming addition to their family? Does he agree that all children should be born with equal rights, whether they are the children of the most powerful person in the land or the one in three of Scotland's children who live in poverty? Why should it take as long as 20 years to eradicate child poverty, which means that many children born in Scotland today will be condemned to suffer poverty during their entire childhood?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6076102+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C712509", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27112, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 352.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27113, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 353.0, "QuestionHeading": "Prime Minister (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27114, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 354.0, "DisplayOrder": 354.0, "ID": 27114, "ParentID": 27113 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 359.0, "ContributionID": 712509, "EditedText": "I am happy to hear Dennis Canavan congratulating Tony Blair on something and I join him in expressing pleasure at the recent news. On his specific point, he would be the first to appreciate that long-term social trends are reversed usually over a fairly lengthy period. It is dishonest of politicians to say that they can snap their fingers and, in one or two years, change a deeply rooted social situation. If he considers what is happening in terms of, for example, the biggest ever increase in child benefit or the efforts that are being made to raise standards in primary education and pre-school nursery facilities, he will see that a substantial amount is being done. The publication that we debated yesterday sets out a very adequate and important programme, which I am sure will have his full support.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am happy to hear Dennis Canavan congratulating Tony Blair on something and I join him in expressing pleasure at the recent news. On his specific point, he would be the first to appreciate that long-term social trends are reversed usually over a fairly lengthy period. It is dishonest of politicians to say that they can snap their fingers and, in one or two years, change a deeply rooted social situation. If he considers what is happening in terms of, for example, the biggest ever increase in child benefit or the efforts that are being made to raise standards in primary education and pre-school nursery facilities, he will see that a substantial amount is being done. The publication that we debated yesterday sets out a very adequate and important programme, which I am sure will have his full support.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6076102+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2167E79P155C712513", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27112, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 352.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27113, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 353.0, "QuestionHeading": "Teachers", "QuestionHeadingID": 27115, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 361.0, "DisplayOrder": 361.0, "ID": 27115, "ParentID": 27113 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Peacock, Peter", "ID": 2167, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Peter Peacock", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Peter Peacock: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 368.0, "ContributionID": 712513, "EditedText": "As a consumer of its services when I lived on the Orkney islands, I am happy to acknowledge the role that Northern College has played. We want continuing professional development to play an expanded role. We expect many providers to take part in that, and Mr Rumbles can be assured that the particular needs of rural areas in Scotland will be part of our approach in ensuring that the delivery of continuing professional development is carried out on a decentralised basis.", "EditedTextHTML": "As a consumer of its services when I lived on the Orkney islands, I am happy to acknowledge the role that Northern College has played. We want continuing professional development to play an expanded role. We expect many providers to take part in that, and Mr Rumbles can be assured that the particular needs of rural areas in Scotland will be part of our approach in ensuring that the delivery of continuing professional development is carried out on a decentralised basis.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1832E96P195C712515", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27112, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 352.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27113, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 353.0, "QuestionHeading": "Listed Buildings", "QuestionHeadingID": 27116, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 370.0, "DisplayOrder": 370.0, "ID": 27116, "ParentID": 27113 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Livingstone, Marilyn", "ID": 1832, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Kirkcaldy" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Marilyn Livingstone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Marilyn Livingstone: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 373.0, "ContributionID": 712515, "EditedText": "Can I ask about the case of an historic structure in my constituency—the A- frame and headgear at the Frances colliery in Dysart? What can be done to ensure that sufficient resources are allocated to guarantee its future after a planning application by the Coal Authority to demolish it was turned down by the council?", "EditedTextHTML": "Can I ask about the case of an historic structure in my constituency—the A- frame and headgear at the Frances colliery in Dysart? What can be done to ensure that sufficient resources are allocated to guarantee its future after a planning application by the Coal Authority to demolish it was turned down by the council?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2068E171P304C712518", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27112, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 352.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27113, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 353.0, "QuestionHeading": "Agricultural Business Improvement Scheme", "QuestionHeadingID": 27117, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 377.0, "DisplayOrder": 377.0, "ID": 27117, "ParentID": 27113 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stone, Jamie", "ID": 2068, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie Stone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Stone: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 380.0, "ContributionID": 712518, "EditedText": "Although I welcome the minister's efforts to sort out this bùrach—to use a good Gaelic word—does he agree that a partial solution would be to redirect some of the £24 million European transitional funding? Will he make representations to Her Majesty's Treasury for support, in the light of the chancellor's recently announced budget surplus?", "EditedTextHTML": "Although I welcome the minister's efforts to sort out this bùrach—to use a good Gaelic word—does he agree that a partial solution would be to redirect some of the £24 million European transitional funding? Will he make representations to Her Majesty's Treasury for support, in the light of the chancellor's recently announced budget surplus?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C712534", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27112, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 352.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27113, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 353.0, "QuestionHeading": "Perth and Kinross Council", "QuestionHeadingID": 27120, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 408.0, "DisplayOrder": 408.0, "ID": 27120, "ParentID": 27113 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 415.0, "ContributionID": 712534, "EditedText": "Will the minister agree to meet councillors and officers from Perth and Kinross Council at the earliest opportunity to discuss those matters further?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister agree to meet councillors and officers from Perth and Kinross Council at the earliest opportunity to discuss those matters further?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2154E194P299C712544", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27112, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 352.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27113, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 353.0, "QuestionHeading": "Enterprise Policy", "QuestionHeadingID": 27122, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 426.0, "DisplayOrder": 426.0, "ID": 27122, "ParentID": 27113 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stephen, Nicol", "ID": 2154, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Nicol Stephen", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicol Stephen: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 437.0, "ContributionID": 712544, "EditedText": "As Mr Swinney knows, in some instances the announcements reflect initiatives that are already taking place in Scotland, and therefore indicate areas in which the UK is catching up with what is being done in Scotland. We are, of course, determined that Scotland should receive its fair share of UK funds. Part of the discussions to which I referred will be to ensure that that happens.", "EditedTextHTML": "As Mr Swinney knows, in some instances the announcements reflect initiatives that are already taking place in Scotland, and therefore indicate areas in which the UK is catching up with what is being done in Scotland. We are, of course, determined that Scotland should receive its fair share of UK funds. Part of the discussions to which I referred will be to ensure that that happens.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1906E278P355C712545", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27112, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 352.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27113, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 353.0, "QuestionHeading": "Student Loans", "QuestionHeadingID": 27123, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 439.0, "DisplayOrder": 439.0, "ID": 27123, "ParentID": 27113 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Welsh, Andrew", "ID": 1906, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Angus" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Welsh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "11. Mr Andrew Welsh (Angus) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 440.0, "ContributionID": 712545, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what delays have occurred processing student loan applications this year, and whether it will hold a public inquiry into the Student Loans Company. (S1O-691) The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning (Nicol Stephen): The Student Loans Company has a target of dealing with applications under the old-style loans scheme within 21 days. The target under the new student support scheme is tighter—17 days. The vast majority of students who applied correctly and on time will have received their cheques at the start of their courses. There are no plans for an inquiry into the Student Loans Company.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what delays have occurred processing student loan applications this year, and whether it will hold a public inquiry into the Student Loans Company. (S1O-691) The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning (Nicol Stephen): The Student Loans Company has a target of dealing with applications under the old-style loans scheme within 21 days. The target under the new student support scheme is tighter—17 days. The vast majority of students who applied correctly and on time will have received their cheques at the start of their courses.

There are no plans for an inquiry into the Student Loans Company.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1770E82P108C712550", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27112, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 352.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27113, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 353.0, "QuestionHeading": "Business Rates", "QuestionHeadingID": 27124, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 446.0, "DisplayOrder": 446.0, "ID": 27124, "ParentID": 27113 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Thomson, Elaine", "ID": 1770, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Thomson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Elaine Thomson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 451.0, "ContributionID": 712550, "EditedText": "Will the minister further allay the fears of Scottish businesses in the north-east and elsewhere by guaranteeing that the uniform business rate will continue and that there will be a level playing field for business rates in Scotland and England?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister further allay the fears of Scottish businesses in the north-east and elsewhere by guaranteeing that the uniform business rate will continue and that there will be a level playing field for business rates in Scotland and England?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1865E219P509C712552", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27112, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 352.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27113, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 353.0, "QuestionHeading": "Housing Debt", "QuestionHeadingID": 27125, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 455.0, "DisplayOrder": 455.0, "ID": 27125, "ParentID": 27113 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "White, Sandra", "ID": 1865, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sandra White", "SpeakerDisplayName": "13. Ms Sandra White (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 456.0, "ContributionID": 712552, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what the current level is of housing debt owed by Glasgow City Council. (S1O-711) The Minister for Communities (Ms Wendy Alexander): At 31 March 1999, Glasgow City Council's housing debt was £878 million.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what the current level is of housing debt owed by Glasgow City Council. (S1O-711) The Minister for Communities (Ms Wendy Alexander): At 31 March 1999, Glasgow City Council's housing debt was £878 million.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1865E219P509C712553", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27112, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 352.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27113, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 353.0, "QuestionHeading": "Housing Debt", "QuestionHeadingID": 27125, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 455.0, "DisplayOrder": 455.0, "ID": 27125, "ParentID": 27113 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "White, Sandra", "ID": 1865, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sandra White", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms White: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 458.0, "ContributionID": 712553, "EditedText": "Although the debt seems to differ according to different papers, I accept the minister's answer. Will she confirm that, if the housing stock transfer goes ahead, the debt will be written off? If so, why cannot that debt be written off now to enable the stock to remain under council control and to prevent what is effectively privatisation by the back door? Will she also confirm that the amount that new housing trusts will borrow will be the same as the current level of debt and that no more money will be released for housing from stock transfer?", "EditedTextHTML": "Although the debt seems to differ according to different papers, I accept the minister's answer. Will she confirm that, if the housing stock transfer goes ahead, the debt will be written off? If so, why cannot that debt be written off now to enable the stock to remain under council control and to prevent what is effectively privatisation by the back door? Will she also confirm that the amount that new housing trusts will borrow will be the same as the current level of debt and that no more money will be released for housing from stock transfer?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C712554", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27112, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 352.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27113, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 353.0, "QuestionHeading": "Housing Debt", "QuestionHeadingID": 27125, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 455.0, "DisplayOrder": 455.0, "ID": 27125, "ParentID": 27113 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 460.0, "ContributionID": 712554, "EditedText": "I really do not know how often we have to reassert that it cannot be privatisation when, under every proposal under consideration, all the houses in Glasgow will go to non-profitdistributing landlords. To allege that that is privatisation is just a dishonest slur. If the debt assistance was transferred to the public sector and the stock remained within the public sector, the sector would have to meet not only the debt servicing costs but all the investment costs of modernising the stock in that city. We should take the opportunity to bring new investment into council housing, which for too long has been the poor relation in Scottish housing.", "EditedTextHTML": "I really do not know how often we have to reassert that it cannot be privatisation when, under every proposal under consideration, all the houses in Glasgow will go to non-profitdistributing landlords. To allege that that is privatisation is just a dishonest slur.

If the debt assistance was transferred to the public sector and the stock remained within the public sector, the sector would have to meet not only the debt servicing costs but all the investment costs of modernising the stock in that city. We should take the opportunity to bring new investment into council housing, which for too long has been the poor relation in Scottish housing.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1901E57P277C712555", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27112, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 352.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27113, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 353.0, "QuestionHeading": "Consumer Strategy White Paper", "QuestionHeadingID": 27126, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 462.0, "DisplayOrder": 462.0, "ID": 27126, "ParentID": 27113 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Allan", "ID": 1901, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Cunninghame North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Allan Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "14. Allan Wilson (Cunninghame North) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 463.0, "ContributionID": 712555, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what representations it has made to Her Majesty's Government on the consumer strategy white paper and its potential impact on Scotland. (S1O726)", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what representations it has made to Her Majesty's Government on the consumer strategy white paper and its potential impact on Scotland. (S1O726)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1901E57P277C712557", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27112, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 352.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27113, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 353.0, "QuestionHeading": "Consumer Strategy White Paper", "QuestionHeadingID": 27126, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 462.0, "DisplayOrder": 462.0, "ID": 27126, "ParentID": 27113 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Allan", "ID": 1901, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Cunninghame North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Allan Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Allan Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 467.0, "ContributionID": 712557, "EditedText": "Given the intention to increase consumer rights, how does the Executive intend to help people who are denied rights to seek redress? In particular, are there any plans to extend the in-court advice pilot in Edinburgh sheriff court to Kilmarnock sheriff court, which refuses to allow lay advocates to represent the socially excluded? Those people have neither the resources nor the social skills necessary to seek redress through the small claims procedure, but they are the most vulnerable to and require the greatest protection from consumer cons.", "EditedTextHTML": "Given the intention to increase consumer rights, how does the Executive intend to help people who are denied rights to seek redress? In particular, are there any plans to extend the in-court advice pilot in Edinburgh sheriff court to Kilmarnock sheriff court, which refuses to allow lay advocates to represent the socially excluded? Those people have neither the resources nor the social skills necessary to seek redress through the small claims procedure, but they are the most vulnerable to and require the greatest protection from consumer cons.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1837E108P186C712559", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27112, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 352.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27113, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 353.0, "QuestionHeading": "Teacher Training", "QuestionHeadingID": 27127, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 27127, "ParentID": 27113 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mulligan, Mary", "ID": 1837, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Linlithgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Mulligan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "15. Mrs Mary Mulligan (Linlithgow) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 472.0, "ContributionID": 712559, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive how many people have entered, and successfully completed, teacher training courses over the past 10 years. (S1O-721) The Deputy Minister for Children and Education (Peter Peacock): Over the past 10 years, there have been about 11,250 entrants to pre-service primary teacher training and about 12,080 entrants to pre-service secondary teacher training. Over the same period, there have been about 8,580 graduates from pre-service primary teacher training courses and about 10,130 graduates from pre-service secondary teacher training courses.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive how many people have entered, and successfully completed, teacher training courses over the past 10 years. (S1O-721) The Deputy Minister for Children and Education (Peter Peacock): Over the past 10 years, there have been about 11,250 entrants to pre-service primary teacher training and about 12,080 entrants to pre-service secondary teacher training. Over the same period, there have been about 8,580 graduates from pre-service primary teacher training courses and about 10,130 graduates from pre-service secondary teacher training courses.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2167E79P155C712561", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27112, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 352.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27113, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 353.0, "QuestionHeading": "Teacher Training", "QuestionHeadingID": 27127, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 27127, "ParentID": 27113 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Peacock, Peter", "ID": 2167, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Peter Peacock", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Peter Peacock: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 476.0, "ContributionID": 712561, "EditedText": "Although there is generally no shortage of teachers across Scotland, particular areas of Scotland face difficulties in supply provision from time to time. We recognise that; the issue is now a priority for a working group. The Executive's recent recruitment campaign to attract new entrants into teaching has been highly successful, with more than 2,800 inquiries from possible entrants. That is much more than in recent years and is a very encouraging trend.", "EditedTextHTML": "Although there is generally no shortage of teachers across Scotland, particular areas of Scotland face difficulties in supply provision from time to time. We recognise that; the issue is now a priority for a working group. The Executive's recent recruitment campaign to attract new entrants into teaching has been highly successful, with more than 2,800 inquiries from possible entrants. That is much more than in recent years and is a very encouraging trend.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C712564", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27112, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 352.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27113, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 353.0, "QuestionHeading": "Rail Safety", "QuestionHeadingID": 27128, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 482.0, "DisplayOrder": 482.0, "ID": 27128, "ParentID": 27113 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "16. Michael Russell (South of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 483.0, "ContributionID": 712564, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what discussions it has had with Railtrack regarding safety at railway level crossings in Scotland. (S1O689)", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what discussions it has had with Railtrack regarding safety at railway level crossings in Scotland. (S1O689)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1889E118P162C712567", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27112, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 352.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27113, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 353.0, "QuestionHeading": "Rail Safety", "QuestionHeadingID": 27128, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 482.0, "DisplayOrder": 482.0, "ID": 27128, "ParentID": 27113 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morrison, Mr Alasdair", "ID": 1889, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Western Isles" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morrison", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Morrison: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 489.0, "ContributionID": 712567, "EditedText": "I remind Mike Russell that the western isles once had a railway system—in the 1920s—courtesy of Lord Leverhulme. Irene Oldfather has contacted the Executive about this issue, so we are well aware of it. Sarah Boyack receives regular briefings from Railtrack and I see no reason why she should not raise the issue with it.", "EditedTextHTML": "I remind Mike Russell that the western isles once had a railway system—in the 1920s—courtesy of Lord Leverhulme.

Irene Oldfather has contacted the Executive about this issue, so we are well aware of it. Sarah Boyack receives regular briefings from Railtrack and I see no reason why she should not raise the issue with it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2108E50P256C712570", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27112, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 352.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27113, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 353.0, "QuestionHeading": "Non-domestic Rates", "QuestionHeadingID": 27129, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 491.0, "DisplayOrder": 491.0, "ID": 27129, "ParentID": 27113 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macintosh, Ken", "ID": 2108, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Eastwood" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ken Macintosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Macintosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 496.0, "ContributionID": 712570, "EditedText": "Is the minister aware that businesses in my constituency want above all to be able to plan for the future with some certainty about the economic climate in which they operate? Is he aware that businesses greatly appreciate the unprecedented economic stability delivered by the partnership between the Scottish Executive and the UK Government? There is, however, concern about the revaluation of non-domestic rates. Will he assure me that, following revaluation, the Scottish Executive will continue to ensure that small businesses in my Eastwood constituency and across Scotland will be able to plan in confidence and on a par with businesses in the rest of the country?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is the minister aware that businesses in my constituency want above all to be able to plan for the future with some certainty about the economic climate in which they operate? Is he aware that businesses greatly appreciate the unprecedented economic stability delivered by the partnership between the Scottish Executive and the UK Government? There is, however, concern about the revaluation of non-domestic rates. Will he assure me that, following revaluation, the Scottish Executive will continue to ensure that small businesses in my Eastwood constituency and across Scotland will be able to plan in confidence and on a par with businesses in the rest of the country?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C712572", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27112, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 352.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27113, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 353.0, "QuestionHeading": "Drugs Budget", "QuestionHeadingID": 27130, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 500.0, "DisplayOrder": 500.0, "ID": 27130, "ParentID": 27113 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "18. Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 501.0, "ContributionID": 712572, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what measures it is taking to ensure that the NHS drugs budget for 1999-2000 is adequate to cover the increasing costs of \"patient packs\". (S1O-712) The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): The 1999-2000 unified allocations to health boards included £610 million in respect of general practice and dental prescribing. That sum is considered adequate to meet current projected costs.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what measures it is taking to ensure that the NHS drugs budget for 1999-2000 is adequate to cover the increasing costs of \"patient packs\". (S1O-712) The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): The 1999-2000 unified allocations to health boards included £610 million in respect of general practice and dental prescribing. That sum is considered adequate to meet current projected costs.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C712573", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27112, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 352.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27113, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 353.0, "QuestionHeading": "Drugs Budget", "QuestionHeadingID": 27130, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 500.0, "DisplayOrder": 500.0, "ID": 27130, "ParentID": 27113 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 503.0, "ContributionID": 712573, "EditedText": "Is the minister satisfied that the patient pack is appropriate in every situation? Given the added problems with generic drugs, will increasing costs lead to the rationing of drug prescriptions?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is the minister satisfied that the patient pack is appropriate in every situation? Given the added problems with generic drugs, will increasing costs lead to the rationing of drug prescriptions?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1990E181P340C712575", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27112, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 352.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27113, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 353.0, "QuestionHeading": "Fire Regulations", "QuestionHeadingID": 27131, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 507.0, "DisplayOrder": 507.0, "ID": 27131, "ParentID": 27113 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robson, Euan", "ID": 1990, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Roxburgh and Berwickshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Euan Robson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "19. Euan Robson (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 508.0, "ContributionID": 712575, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it intends to review the advice to be given on the Fire Precautions (Workplace) Regulations 1997 (SI 1997/1840) as amended. (S1O-733) The Deputy Minister for Justice (Angus MacKay): Guidance for employers was published in July. Guidance for fire authorities will be circulated shortly. That guidance will be reviewed in the light of experience.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it intends to review the advice to be given on the Fire Precautions (Workplace) Regulations 1997 (SI 1997/1840) as amended. (S1O-733) The Deputy Minister for Justice (Angus MacKay): Guidance for employers was published in July. Guidance for fire authorities will be circulated shortly. That guidance will be reviewed in the light of experience.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1990E181P340C712576", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27112, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 352.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27113, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 353.0, "QuestionHeading": "Fire Regulations", "QuestionHeadingID": 27131, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 507.0, "DisplayOrder": 507.0, "ID": 27131, "ParentID": 27113 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robson, Euan", "ID": 1990, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Roxburgh and Berwickshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Euan Robson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Euan Robson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 510.0, "ContributionID": 712576, "EditedText": "How many businesses in Scotland are aware of those regulations, let alone understand them? Does the minister appreciate the view of some fire safety professionals that the booklets and information available after the original regulations were published were inadequate and unsatisfactory?", "EditedTextHTML": "How many businesses in Scotland are aware of those regulations, let alone understand them? Does the minister appreciate the view of some fire safety professionals that the booklets and information available after the original regulations were published were inadequate and unsatisfactory?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C712577", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27112, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 352.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27113, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 353.0, "QuestionHeading": "Fire Regulations", "QuestionHeadingID": 27131, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 507.0, "DisplayOrder": 507.0, "ID": 27131, "ParentID": 27113 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Angus MacKay: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 512.0, "ContributionID": 712577, "EditedText": "The booklets on fire safety guidance for employers that were published on 22 July were made available to the Stationery Office and contained extremely comprehensive advice to employers. I am aware, however, of some concerns about this, and I will undertake to examine them and report back to Euan Robson.", "EditedTextHTML": "The booklets on fire safety guidance for employers that were published on 22 July were made available to the Stationery Office and contained extremely comprehensive advice to employers. I am aware, however, of some concerns about this, and I will undertake to examine them and report back to Euan Robson.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C712581", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27132, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 514.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27133, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 515.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27134, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 516.0, "DisplayOrder": 516.0, "ID": 27134, "ParentID": 27133 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 523.0, "ContributionID": 712581, "EditedText": "I am glad that Mr Salmond—judging from the inference of his question—recognises that this was an internal Scottish Executive discussion document on a matter which was ultimately going to be the business of discussions between the clerks and the Scottish Executive about procedure. It was not a document that had been seen by or that had gone to ministers. Indeed, I first heard about it when I listened to \"Good Morning Scotland\", as I struggled from bed. This Executive believes firmly—this was one of the main themes of my recent John P Mackintosh lecture—that the committees are an integral and vital part of the process, which we want to run effectively and with considerable impact. It is still, however, essential to adjust and ensure, from the points of view of the committees and of ministers, that time is used properly, that proper preparation takes place before meetings and that the system achieves all that is possible from it.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am glad that Mr Salmond—judging from the inference of his question—recognises that this was an internal Scottish Executive discussion document on a matter which was ultimately going to be the business of discussions between the clerks and the Scottish Executive about procedure. It was not a document that had been seen by or that had gone to ministers. Indeed, I first heard about it when I listened to \"Good Morning Scotland\", as I struggled from bed.

This Executive believes firmly—this was one of the main themes of my recent John P Mackintosh lecture—that the committees are an integral and vital part of the process, which we want to run effectively and with considerable impact. It is still, however, essential to adjust and ensure, from the points of view of the committees and of ministers, that time is used properly, that proper preparation takes place before meetings and that the system achieves all that is possible from it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C712582", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27132, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 514.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27133, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 515.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27134, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 516.0, "DisplayOrder": 516.0, "ID": 27134, "ParentID": 27133 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 525.0, "ContributionID": 712582, "EditedText": "Can the First Minister clarify whether he is saying that ministers have not seen the memorandum, and that it was not copied to ministers? I find that a very surprising reply. Can he tell me if the Osmotherly rules which Professor Peter Hennessy has described as an \"affront to Parliament providing 60 ways for civil servants to say no to select committees\", are to be imposed on this Parliament? Is it the intention to impose the same outdated Westminster practices on our new Parliament, and why is it being done unilaterally?", "EditedTextHTML": "Can the First Minister clarify whether he is saying that ministers have not seen the memorandum, and that it was not copied to ministers? I find that a very surprising reply.

Can he tell me if the Osmotherly rules which Professor Peter Hennessy has described as an

\"affront to Parliament providing 60 ways for civil servants to say no to select committees\", are to be imposed on this Parliament? Is it the intention to impose the same outdated Westminster practices on our new Parliament, and why is it being done unilaterally?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C712592", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27132, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 514.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27133, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 515.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27134, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 516.0, "DisplayOrder": 516.0, "ID": 27134, "ParentID": 27133 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 545.0, "ContributionID": 712592, "EditedText": "I thank the First Minister for his full answer and for the openness with which he has indicated that very substantial sums of money are involved as a result of this initiative.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the First Minister for his full answer and for the openness with which he has indicated that very substantial sums of money are involved as a result of this initiative.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C712599", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27132, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 514.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27133, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 515.0, "QuestionHeading": "Landfill", "QuestionHeadingID": 27135, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 557.0, "DisplayOrder": 557.0, "ID": 27135, "ParentID": 27133 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 560.0, "ContributionID": 712599, "EditedText": "Order. I am the only person who is allowed to show a red card in this chamber. Laughter.", "EditedTextHTML": "Order. I am the only person who is allowed to show a red card in this chamber. [Laughter.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1996E124P211C712605", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27132, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 514.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27133, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 515.0, "QuestionHeading": "Landfill", "QuestionHeadingID": 27135, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 557.0, "DisplayOrder": 557.0, "ID": 27135, "ParentID": 27133 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAveety, Mr Frank", "ID": 1996, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Shettleston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Local Government", "SpeakerName": "Frank McAveety", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McAveety: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 572.0, "ContributionID": 712605, "EditedText": "I thank the member for that question and I assure Margaret Curran that I will continue to ensure that SEPA will deliver regarding any concerns raised by the local community, and that any monitoring that will take place must meet national standards and guidelines. I hope that Margaret Curran can address the issue with her local community.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the member for that question and I assure Margaret Curran that I will continue to ensure that SEPA will deliver regarding any concerns raised by the local community, and that any monitoring that will take place must meet national standards and guidelines. I hope that Margaret Curran can address the issue with her local community.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C712606", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27132, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 514.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27133, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 515.0, "QuestionHeading": "Landfill", "QuestionHeadingID": 27135, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 557.0, "DisplayOrder": 557.0, "ID": 27135, "ParentID": 27133 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Murray Tosh (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 574.0, "ContributionID": 712606, "EditedText": "On a point of order. I would like to ask a question with reference to the question that Fergus Ewing asked during open question time. I did not want to interrupt the question in view of its importance. Can you, Sir David, give a ruling on supplementary questions in regard to the extent to which they should follow the lead question? Are we to understand that the question can be entirely open? You will be aware that the Procedures Committee shortly will bring a report to Parliament that will increase the degree of openness in questions. The committee has worked on this, having assumed that supplementaries follow the topic as defined by the original question. It would be helpful to have that guideline laid down now.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. I would like to ask a question with reference to the question that Fergus Ewing asked during open question time. I did not want to interrupt the question in view of its importance. Can you, Sir David, give a ruling on supplementary questions in regard to the extent to which they should follow the lead question? Are we to understand that the question can be entirely open?

You will be aware that the Procedures Committee shortly will bring a report to Parliament that will increase the degree of openness in questions. The committee has worked on this, having assumed that supplementaries follow the topic as defined by the original question. It would be helpful to have that guideline laid down now.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C712610", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Freedom of Information", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27136, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 582.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 582.0, "ID": 27136, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice (Mr Jim Wallace): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 584.0, "ContributionID": 712610, "EditedText": "I shall make a statement on the publication today of the Executive's consultation document on freedom of information, \"An Open Scotland\". Copies are being made available to members through the document supply centre. The document is being distributed widely throughout civic Scotland and will be available this afternoon on the Scottish Executive website. The publication of our proposals fulfils our commitment to consult widely this autumn. I made that commitment in a statement to this Parliament on the subject in June, and it is in the Executive's programme for government. As members will appreciate, freedom of information is a subject in which I have taken a considerable personal interest over many years. I am, therefore, delighted to announce the publication of the document. In June, I said that Scotland has an opportunity to adopt a distinctive approach to openness, and to create its own freedom of information regime that will be appropriate to a modern and open Government. The proposals that are contained in \"An Open Scotland\" can leave no doubt that the Executive is serious in its commitment to introduce an effective freedom of information regime for Scotland. Effective openness leads to better scrutiny, better scrutiny leads to better Government, and better Government leads to an increased public confidence in decisions that are made which affect people's lives. By making information more widely available, we empower people; we do not weaken Government. Taken together, the document's proposals tip the scales decisively in favour of openness and build on the presumption of openness that underpins the non-statutory code of practice under which the Executive operates. That is made clear by the powerful role that we propose for an independent Scottish information commissioner and our intention that Scottish public bodies will be able to withhold information only if its disclosure would cause substantial prejudice or would not be in the public interest. At the heart of all freedom of information regimes is a balance between rights of access and the protection of sensitive information. I believe that we have struck the right balance. as I promised in June, I have driven forward the work on developing our proposals for consultation. This document represents the result of a great deal of hard work in a relatively short time.The consultation document contains several clear proposals and identifies areas in which comment on particular options is being sought or in which further work is required. Comment would be welcomed on all aspects of freedom of information. The consultation period will be open until 15 March 2000, and I look forward to receiving the views of the Justice and Home Affairs Committee. It may help Parliament if I draw attention to a selection of our key proposals. The freedom of information legislation will provide, for the first time, a statutory right of access to information. The coverage of the scheme will be wide and will include all Scottish public authorities and service providers, such as schools, NHS Scotland and the police, as well as Executive departments and agencies. There will be a harm test of substantial prejudice. That means that, for a public body to withhold certain information, it would have to conclude that disclosure would result in prejudice that is real, actual and of significant substance. Even if it is considered that disclosure would result in substantial prejudice, the information would still be released if it was in the public interest to do so. A central component of the scheme will be an independent Scottish information commissioner. There has been much discussion on the powers that such a commissioner should have: power to recommend disclosure or power to order disclosure. Let me make it clear that the Scottish information commissioner will have the power to order disclosure of information. MEMBERS: \"Hear, hear.\" He or she will also be empowered to adjust charges and to resolve disputes by mediation, and will have a right of access to documents. There will be a continued commitment to a culture of greater openness in the public sector, in which the Scottish information commissioner will play a key role. Exemptions are a feature of statutory freedom of information schemes around the world. In most cases, we have taken as our starting point those exemptions set out in the code of practice. Such an approach offers a degree of continuity. In areas in which it is considered essential to ensure close cross-border co-operation, such as law enforcement and legal proceedings, we propose that the exemptions in the Scottish regime should be compatible with the relevant provisions in the UK freedom of information legislation. That is, in part, to do with the unique position of the Crown Office as the sole prosecuting authority of Scotland. Cases are reported to the Crown Office by UK departments and agencies such as Customs and Excise and the Health and Safety Executive. The document sets out in further detail the strong practical arguments for that approach. I have mentioned the Scottish information commissioner, who will have the power to order the disclosure of information in the public interest. The commissioner would play a key role not only in forcing the statutory freedom of information regime, but also, critically, in promoting freedom of information and openness in general. The commissioner's power to order disclosure will apply to all requests. In very limited and clearly specified circumstances, however, the Scottish ministers could issue a certificate withholding information of exceptional sensitivity. That is not a step that would be taken lightly, nor would it be taken by an individual minister; it would require a collective cabinet decision. That approach is found in other freedom of information regimes and, in keeping with overseas experience, we envisage that it would be a rare event for the Scottish ministers to exercise that prerogative. These are distinctive Scottish proposals but, where it has made sense to do so, we have had regard to the proposed UK scheme. I have discussed our approach with the Home Secretary, who has been constructive throughout. That the two Administrations are taking different approaches to this important subject demonstrates devolution at work. In June, I said that effective freedom of information and openness is about culture as much as it is about legislation. The consultation document therefore devotes a chapter to the ways in which we propose to foster and maintain an appropriate culture of openness throughout Scottish public authorities. That is an important aspect of our proposals. The package of proposals set out in \"An Open Scotland\" would deliver for Scotland: a real difference to the way in which information is made available to the people; increased openness in the working of Government; better scrutiny of Government; in short, better Government. The consultation proposals represent the partnership in action and the Executive delivering on its commitments. I look forward to receiving comments on our proposals and to working with members of this Parliament and others as we move towards delivering Scotland's distinctive freedom of information act.", "EditedTextHTML": "I shall make a statement on the publication today of the Executive's consultation document on freedom of information, \"An Open Scotland\". Copies are being made available to members through the document supply centre. The document is being distributed widely throughout civic Scotland and will be available this afternoon on the Scottish Executive website.

The publication of our proposals fulfils our commitment to consult widely this autumn. I made that commitment in a statement to this Parliament on the subject in June, and it is in the Executive's programme for government.

As members will appreciate, freedom of information is a subject in which I have taken a considerable personal interest over many years. I am, therefore, delighted to announce the publication of the document. In June, I said that Scotland has an opportunity to adopt a distinctive approach to openness, and to create its own freedom of information regime that will be appropriate to a modern and open Government. The proposals that are contained in \"An Open Scotland\" can leave no doubt that the Executive is serious in its commitment to introduce an effective freedom of information regime for Scotland.

Effective openness leads to better scrutiny, better scrutiny leads to better Government, and better Government leads to an increased public confidence in decisions that are made which affect people's lives. By making information more widely available, we empower people; we do not weaken Government.

Taken together, the document's proposals tip the scales decisively in favour of openness and build on the presumption of openness that underpins the non-statutory code of practice under which the Executive operates. That is made clear by the powerful role that we propose for an independent Scottish information commissioner and our intention that Scottish public bodies will be able to withhold information only if its disclosure would cause substantial prejudice or would not be in the public interest.

At the heart of all freedom of information regimes is a balance between rights of access and the protection of sensitive information. I believe that we have struck the right balance. as I promised in June, I have driven forward the work on developing our proposals for consultation. This document represents the result of a great deal of

hard work in a relatively short time.

The consultation document contains several clear proposals and identifies areas in which comment on particular options is being sought or in which further work is required. Comment would be welcomed on all aspects of freedom of information. The consultation period will be open until 15 March 2000, and I look forward to receiving the views of the Justice and Home Affairs Committee.

It may help Parliament if I draw attention to a selection of our key proposals. The freedom of information legislation will provide, for the first time, a statutory right of access to information. The coverage of the scheme will be wide and will include all Scottish public authorities and service providers, such as schools, NHS Scotland and the police, as well as Executive departments and agencies.

There will be a harm test of substantial prejudice. That means that, for a public body to withhold certain information, it would have to conclude that disclosure would result in prejudice that is real, actual and of significant substance. Even if it is considered that disclosure would result in substantial prejudice, the information would still be released if it was in the public interest to do so.

A central component of the scheme will be an independent Scottish information commissioner. There has been much discussion on the powers that such a commissioner should have: power to recommend disclosure or power to order disclosure. Let me make it clear that the Scottish information commissioner will have the power to order disclosure of information. [MEMBERS: \"Hear, hear.\"] He or she will also be empowered to adjust charges and to resolve disputes by mediation, and will have a right of access to documents.

There will be a continued commitment to a culture of greater openness in the public sector, in which the Scottish information commissioner will play a key role.

Exemptions are a feature of statutory freedom of information schemes around the world. In most cases, we have taken as our starting point those exemptions set out in the code of practice. Such an approach offers a degree of continuity.

In areas in which it is considered essential to ensure close cross-border co-operation, such as law enforcement and legal proceedings, we propose that the exemptions in the Scottish regime should be compatible with the relevant provisions in the UK freedom of information legislation. That is, in part, to do with the unique position of the Crown Office as the sole prosecuting authority of Scotland. Cases are reported to the Crown Office by UK departments and agencies such as Customs and Excise and the Health and Safety Executive. The document sets out in further detail the strong practical arguments for that approach.

I have mentioned the Scottish information commissioner, who will have the power to order the disclosure of information in the public interest. The commissioner would play a key role not only in forcing the statutory freedom of information regime, but also, critically, in promoting freedom of information and openness in general.

The commissioner's power to order disclosure will apply to all requests. In very limited and clearly specified circumstances, however, the Scottish ministers could issue a certificate withholding information of exceptional sensitivity. That is not a step that would be taken lightly, nor would it be taken by an individual minister; it would require a collective cabinet decision. That approach is found in other freedom of information regimes and, in keeping with overseas experience, we envisage that it would be a rare event for the Scottish ministers to exercise that prerogative.

These are distinctive Scottish proposals but, where it has made sense to do so, we have had regard to the proposed UK scheme. I have discussed our approach with the Home Secretary, who has been constructive throughout. That the two Administrations are taking different approaches to this important subject demonstrates devolution at work.

In June, I said that effective freedom of information and openness is about culture as much as it is about legislation. The consultation document therefore devotes a chapter to the ways in which we propose to foster and maintain an appropriate culture of openness throughout Scottish public authorities. That is an important aspect of our proposals.

The package of proposals set out in \"An Open Scotland\" would deliver for Scotland: a real difference to the way in which information is made available to the people; increased openness in the working of Government; better scrutiny of Government; in short, better Government.

The consultation proposals represent the partnership in action and the Executive delivering on its commitments. I look forward to receiving comments on our proposals and to working with members of this Parliament and others as we move towards delivering Scotland's distinctive freedom of information act.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C712611", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Freedom of Information", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27136, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 582.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 582.0, "ID": 27136, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 586.0, "ContributionID": 712611, "EditedText": "thank the minister for taking less than the allotted time for his speech. I have had some problems with the computer system but I have now cleared the screens, so I invite those who want to ask questions to press their buttons now.", "EditedTextHTML": "thank the minister for taking less than the allotted time for his speech.

I have had some problems with the computer system but I have now cleared the screens, so I invite those who want to ask questions to press

their buttons now.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C712613", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Freedom of Information", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27136, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 582.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 582.0, "ID": 27136, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 590.0, "ContributionID": 712613, "EditedText": "I thank Ms Cunningham for her broad welcome of the proposals and apologise that they mean yet more work for her committee. She asked, how rare is a rare event? In regimes where similar arrangements apply, I understand that overriding the information commissioner's request is a rare event. You can imagine the political situation that would arise if the commissioner requested disclosure in the public interest and the cabinet decided collectively to override that. It is not the sort of thing that would be slipped out in a written answer just before a recess. I suspect that the Parliament would want to call ministers to account in such a case. The circumstances in which that would apply are set out in annexe C of \"An Open Scotland\". They include: \"Information received in confidence from foreign governments, foreign courts or international organisations\"; class-based exemptions under \"Internal discussion and advice\" and under \"Law enforcement and legal proceedings\"; aspects of information relating to \"Public employment, public appointments and honours\"; and class-based exemptions under \"Information given in confidence\". It is a narrow range but one that allows us to strike the right balance and the commissioner to make an order rather than a recommendation. Ms Cunningham also asked about the operation of two regimes. That was anticipated in the devolution settlement in that this Parliament was given the power to make arrangements for freedom of information with respect to the bodies for which we have responsibility. The scheme does not apply to particular pieces of legislation but to the departments that are responsible for holding the information, so if it was an immigration matter that would be likely to go to the Home Office and therefore would be subject to the UK bill, or if it was to do with social security, that would be the UK department as well. If documents relating to reserved subjects are in the hands of the Scottish Executive they would be subject to the Scottish freedom of information regime, with the important proviso that we would not have the power to disclose documents that are the property of UK departments and marked \"In confidence\" and the application would go to the originating UK department.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank Ms Cunningham for her broad welcome of the proposals and apologise that they mean yet more work for her committee. She asked, how rare is a rare event? In regimes where similar arrangements apply, I understand that overriding the information commissioner's request is a rare event. You can imagine the political situation that would arise if the commissioner requested disclosure in the public interest and the cabinet decided collectively to override that. It is not the sort of thing that would be slipped out in a written answer just before a recess. I suspect that the Parliament would want to call ministers to account in such a case.

The circumstances in which that would apply are set out in annexe C of \"An Open Scotland\". They include: \"Information received in confidence from foreign governments, foreign courts or international organisations\"; class-based exemptions under \"Internal discussion and advice\" and under \"Law enforcement and legal proceedings\"; aspects of information relating to \"Public employment, public appointments and honours\"; and class-based exemptions under \"Information given in confidence\". It is a narrow range but one that allows us to strike the right balance and the commissioner to make an order rather than a recommendation.

Ms Cunningham also asked about the operation of two regimes. That was anticipated in the devolution settlement in that this Parliament was given the power to make arrangements for freedom of information with respect to the bodies for which we have responsibility. The scheme does not apply to particular pieces of legislation but to the departments that are responsible for holding the information, so if it was an immigration matter that would be likely to go to the Home Office and therefore would be subject to the UK bill, or if it was to do with social security, that would be the UK department as well. If documents relating to reserved subjects are in the hands of the Scottish Executive they would be subject to the Scottish freedom of information regime, with the important proviso that we would not have the power to disclose documents that are the property of UK departments and marked \"In confidence\" and the application would go to the originating UK department.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1990E181P340C712616", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Freedom of Information", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27136, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 582.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 582.0, "ID": 27136, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robson, Euan", "ID": 1990, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Roxburgh and Berwickshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Euan Robson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Euan Robson (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 596.0, "ContributionID": 712616, "EditedText": "I welcome the minister's statement on the incorporation of this long-standing Liberal Democrat policy into law. Can he give examples of overarching public interest that might lead to the release of information that nevertheless has passed the harm test of substantial prejudice? When he mentions executive agencies and the coverage of the bill, does he intend to include Scottish Enterprise and local enterprise companies?", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the minister's statement on the incorporation of this long-standing Liberal Democrat policy into law. Can he give examples of overarching public interest that might lead to the release of information that nevertheless has passed the harm test of substantial prejudice? When he mentions executive agencies and the coverage of the bill, does he intend to include Scottish Enterprise and local enterprise companies?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C712621", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Freedom of Information", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27136, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 582.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 582.0, "ID": 27136, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 606.0, "ContributionID": 712621, "EditedText": "I welcome that question, because it gives me an opportunity, again, to indicate clearly that I expect ministers and public authorities, which are answerable to this Parliament, to operate a culture of openness. I accept that the culture will not change overnight. However, we have given the lead, as a robust and far-reaching freedom of information regime will be put on the statute book. I hope that public bodies will get the clear signal that the Executive and the Parliament expect as much openness as is consistent with the proper discharge of their duties and subject to the exemptions that might apply.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome that question, because it gives me an opportunity, again, to indicate clearly that I expect ministers and public authorities, which are answerable to this Parliament, to operate a culture of openness. I accept that the culture will not change overnight. However, we have given the lead, as a robust and far-reaching freedom of information regime will be put on the statute book. I hope that public bodies will get the clear signal that the Executive and the Parliament expect as much openness as is consistent with the proper discharge of their duties and subject to the exemptions that might apply.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C712622", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Freedom of Information", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27136, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 582.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 582.0, "ID": 27136, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Murray Tosh (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 608.0, "ContributionID": 712622, "EditedText": "I welcome the Deputy First Minister's statement on the inclusion of Scottish Enterprise and LECs in the new regime. I will ask the minister specifically about a consultancy report, which was prepared through Scottish Enterprise for the Scottish Executive, on the proposed M74 link in Glasgow. That is a matter of great interest, and there have been regular calls for that consultancy report to be released. I understand that the consultants and Scottish Enterprise are willing to release the report; the resistance has come from the Scottish Executive. Will his guidance given in July, or his proposed new framework, allow that document to be released to parties that are interested in it?", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the Deputy First Minister's statement on the inclusion of Scottish Enterprise and LECs in the new regime.

I will ask the minister specifically about a consultancy report, which was prepared through Scottish Enterprise for the Scottish Executive, on the proposed M74 link in Glasgow. That is a matter of great interest, and there have been regular calls for that consultancy report to be released. I understand that the consultants and Scottish Enterprise are willing to release the report; the resistance has come from the Scottish Executive. Will his guidance given in July, or his proposed new framework, allow that document to be released to parties that are interested in it?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1811E172P455C712627", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Freedom of Information", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27136, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 582.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 582.0, "ID": 27136, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ullrich, Kay", "ID": 1811, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kay Ullrich", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Kay Ullrich (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 618.0, "ContributionID": 712627, "EditedText": "On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I must draw your attention to the fact that yesterday the contents of the statement that is about to be made on a strategy for carers were released to the press. I first learned of that yesterday afternoon, when I was called by a journalist who asked me to comment on something that I had not had the opportunity of seeing. This is becoming an intolerable situation.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I must draw your attention to the fact that yesterday the contents of the statement that is about to be made on a strategy for carers were released to the press. I first learned of that yesterday afternoon, when I was called by a journalist who asked me to comment on something that I had not had the opportunity of seeing. This is becoming an intolerable situation.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C712628", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Freedom of Information", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27136, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 582.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 582.0, "ID": 27136, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 620.0, "ContributionID": 712628, "EditedText": "Thank you for that point of order. Because I am not au fait with all the details of the situation, I can only refer back to what the Presiding Officer said previously: that we are all on a learning curve, that he did not want to be unduly censorious, and that this is a matter of good practice and of observing the founding principles of the Parliament. I will have investigations and discussions initiated and get back to the member.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you for that point of order. Because I am not au fait with all the details of the situation, I can only refer back to what the Presiding Officer said previously: that we are all on a learning curve, that he did not want to be unduly censorious, and that this is a matter of good practice and of observing the founding principles of the Parliament. I will have investigations and discussions initiated and get back to the member.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2033E106P139C712630", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Carers Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27137, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 622.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 622.0, "ID": 27137, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gray, Iain", "ID": 2033, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Pentlands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Iain Gray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Community Care (Iain Gray): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 626.0, "ContributionID": 712630, "EditedText": "I welcome to the public gallery carers who have travelled from all over Scotland to be here today. Given the caring responsibilities that they have, that represents a considerable effort. In a sense, we are in the presence of 500,000 Scots who look after sick, disabled, vulnerable or frail relatives or friends. Some have done so for many years; others will have, suddenly and shockingly, found themselves in the situation as a result of accident or diagnosis. The Scottish Executive's programme for government committed us to producing a strategy for carers in Scotland. The strategy document was issued by way of a parliamentary question yesterday, so that members of the Parliament would receive it before anyone else. The first ministerial engagement that I undertook was a carers event. I promised then to bring their concerns to the chamber. I have met many carers and have learned from them something of what caring means. It has been a sometimes searing experience. Carers will speak passionately about the difference that services have made, but they will not mince their words about the struggle to provide care for loved ones, sometimes with little support and in isolation. Before drawing up our proposals, we discussed priorities with carers organisations in Scotland, notably the Carers National Association, the coalition of carers in Scotland, Crossroads Scotland, the Princess Royal Trust for Carers and Shared Care Scotland. I want to put on record an acknowledgement of my gratitude for their help. Together, we identified four main areas for action. The first priority of carers is that respite services should be of a better quality, more readily available and more flexible, as those services allow them to take a break with confidence and without guilt. We have therefore told the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities that we expect the resources spent on those services to double. We are identifying £10 million of grant-aided expenditure for 2000-01 specifically for carers services and respite care. That doubles the £5 million that is already notionally allocated for such services in the GAE system. We have already announced that the total GAE for social services will increase by £40 million next year, and it is from those resources that the additional £5 million will be found. Every local authority on Scotland will receive its share of the £10 million, and local carers groups will be advised of the resources that are available to their authority for developing new services and enhancing existing ones. Local authorities must consult local carers organisations on spending plans for those resources. We will encourage imaginative and innovative services that meet carers' needs. We expect authorities to take into account the needs of carers from ethnic minority and rural communities and those who care for someone with a learning disability. Carers want a consistent standard of service across Scotland. We have already set up a national care standards committee to agree national standards for residential care, day care and home care services. National standards for residential respite care will be introduced in 2000 and for home-based care in 2001. Carers are represented on the working groups already set up to discuss standards across the services and will be included in the groups that will discuss the proposals as they emerge. It is widely believed that new carers legislation is required. I agree. I am determined to get it right and not to rush it. I have therefore decided to set up a carers legislation working group by the end of this year, on which representatives of the Scottish Executive, service users and carers, carers organisations and local authorities will work together to draw up legislative proposals for public consultation next year. Those proposals will consider the rights of carers—and users—to a direct assessment of their needs. In particular, we want and expect the legislation to enable carers under 16 to have, for the first time, a direct assessment of their needs. All carers want more information. We can have as many services as we wish and services of the highest quality, but if carers do not know that they are there and how to access them, they are of no use. Too often, services are stumbled across almost by accident. It is no coincidence that the excellent carers centre in Perth is called Gateway. The handbook of the services that it helps carers to access includes many such services, but in the Gateway centre, carers will say that it is often an accidental meeting with someone from the centre that allows them to begin to access the services that already exist. We must increase and open up such gateways to services. All agencies and professionals in the caring professions have a role to play. Working with the Carers National Association training unit that the Scottish Executive funds, we will take the needs of carers into account in future training of general practitioners, primary care teams and social workers. The next planning and priorities guidelines for the national health service will require health boards and trusts to recognise carers' needs. In spring 2000, the Scottish NHS helpline will be extended to include information on services for carers. When NHS Direct is brought on stream in Scotland, it will be extended to include social care and carers advice, as well as medical advice. Early in the new year, we will launch a leaflet and local media campaign to publicise the carers strategy and services for carers. Too many carers remain hidden completely—the 500,000 figure that I used is a notional one. We do not know how many carers there are. It is our intention that the census in 2001 should be the first one to include a question on carers, seeking information on the time that people spend on unpaid caring. We will consider extending the Princess Royal Trust for Carers pilot project to identify hidden carers and examine the potential use of GP databases to identify and include information on carers. The four priorities are respite, standards, legislation and information. Priorities are all very well, but carers are concerned—and have expressed that concern to me—that the impact of the strategy should be monitored. Therefore, from April 2000, local authorities will be required to report in detail on the use of the resources allocated to them for carers and respite services through community care plans and annual updates. Further, in future we will require those plans to be accompanied by a letter from local carers groups, confirming that they have been consulted in the planning and development of services and that they are satisfied that their authority's share of the £10 million has been used appropriately. In addition, we have tasked the Scottish Executive's community care implementation unit to review practice in involving carers in service planning and provision. The unit will identify and promote good practice, and—importantly—will report to me on any barriers to the development of good-quality services for carers. Further, carers' needs will in future be included as part of the existing statutory performance indicators and assessments currently required of local authorities by the Accounts Commission. I have asked that the new, national data set that is being devised by the Scottish Executive, COSLA and the Accounts Commission to monitor social care on a national basis should include information on carers assessments and respite care.I mentioned young carers in the context of legislation, but they are a particularly disadvantaged group, whose specific needs we must address further. In Dundee, we are providing £210,000 over the next three years to a project aimed at identifying and supporting young carers. I have asked my officials to work up proposals for research on the support that is available to young carers in Scotland and the guidance that is needed for professionals in health education and social care. In the meantime, we will make available to directors of education a young carers pack, which I expect to inform the work that is currently undertaken by guidance teachers. It would be wrong to conclude without acknowledging the contribution that carers make. We could not deliver community care without them. They care unpaid, unsung and unwaveringly. The package is a significant step towards addressing their needs, but it is only a step. Some people will try to calculate how much the contribution of carers is worth in cash terms, but that misses the point. Carers care because they want to, and because they love the people for whom they care. We cannot put a price on something that is priceless, or a value on what is invaluable. Caring is what holds our society together. It is the practical, most powerful, profoundest solidarity between husband and wife, parent and child, friend and neighbour. It touches us all. Like most people, when I think of carers, I think first of my mother caring for her father, my aunt and uncle for my cousin, and my friend for his son. We all know carers. Today, we place them at the centre of our Parliament and at the heart of Scotland. They will never go away. Whoever stands here can never ignore their needs again. I move the motion on their behalf. I move,That the Parliament welcomes the Executive's commitment in its Programme for Government to introduce a Carers' Strategy for Scotland to assist unpaid carers, and approves the Executive's proposals for that strategy.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome to the public gallery carers who have travelled from all over Scotland to be here today. Given the caring responsibilities that they have, that represents a considerable effort.

In a sense, we are in the presence of 500,000 Scots who look after sick, disabled, vulnerable or frail relatives or friends. Some have done so for many years; others will have, suddenly and shockingly, found themselves in the situation as a result of accident or diagnosis.

The Scottish Executive's programme for government committed us to producing a strategy for carers in Scotland. The strategy document was issued by way of a parliamentary question yesterday, so that members of the Parliament would receive it before anyone else.

The first ministerial engagement that I undertook was a carers event. I promised then to bring their concerns to the chamber. I have met many carers and have learned from them something of what caring means. It has been a sometimes searing experience. Carers will speak passionately about the difference that services have made, but they will not mince their words about the struggle to provide care for loved ones, sometimes with little support and in isolation.

Before drawing up our proposals, we discussed priorities with carers organisations in Scotland, notably the Carers National Association, the coalition of carers in Scotland, Crossroads Scotland, the Princess Royal Trust for Carers and Shared Care Scotland. I want to put on record an acknowledgement of my gratitude for their help. Together, we identified four main areas for action.

The first priority of carers is that respite services should be of a better quality, more readily available and more flexible, as those services allow them to take a break with confidence and without guilt. We have therefore told the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities that we expect the resources spent on those services to double.

We are identifying £10 million of grant-aided expenditure for 2000-01 specifically for carers services and respite care. That doubles the £5 million that is already notionally allocated for such

services in the GAE system. We have already announced that the total GAE for social services will increase by £40 million next year, and it is from those resources that the additional £5 million will be found.

Every local authority on Scotland will receive its share of the £10 million, and local carers groups will be advised of the resources that are available to their authority for developing new services and enhancing existing ones.

Local authorities must consult local carers organisations on spending plans for those resources. We will encourage imaginative and innovative services that meet carers' needs. We expect authorities to take into account the needs of carers from ethnic minority and rural communities and those who care for someone with a learning disability.

Carers want a consistent standard of service across Scotland. We have already set up a national care standards committee to agree national standards for residential care, day care and home care services. National standards for residential respite care will be introduced in 2000 and for home-based care in 2001.

Carers are represented on the working groups already set up to discuss standards across the services and will be included in the groups that will discuss the proposals as they emerge.

It is widely believed that new carers legislation is required. I agree. I am determined to get it right and not to rush it. I have therefore decided to set up a carers legislation working group by the end of this year, on which representatives of the Scottish Executive, service users and carers, carers organisations and local authorities will work together to draw up legislative proposals for public consultation next year. Those proposals will consider the rights of carers—and users—to a direct assessment of their needs. In particular, we want and expect the legislation to enable carers under 16 to have, for the first time, a direct assessment of their needs.

All carers want more information. We can have as many services as we wish and services of the highest quality, but if carers do not know that they are there and how to access them, they are of no use. Too often, services are stumbled across almost by accident. It is no coincidence that the excellent carers centre in Perth is called Gateway. The handbook of the services that it helps carers to access includes many such services, but in the Gateway centre, carers will say that it is often an accidental meeting with someone from the centre that allows them to begin to access the services that already exist.

We must increase and open up such gateways to services. All agencies and professionals in the caring professions have a role to play. Working with the Carers National Association training unit that the Scottish Executive funds, we will take the needs of carers into account in future training of general practitioners, primary care teams and social workers. The next planning and priorities guidelines for the national health service will require health boards and trusts to recognise carers' needs.

In spring 2000, the Scottish NHS helpline will be extended to include information on services for carers. When NHS Direct is brought on stream in Scotland, it will be extended to include social care and carers advice, as well as medical advice. Early in the new year, we will launch a leaflet and local media campaign to publicise the carers strategy and services for carers.

Too many carers remain hidden completely—the 500,000 figure that I used is a notional one. We do not know how many carers there are. It is our intention that the census in 2001 should be the first one to include a question on carers, seeking information on the time that people spend on unpaid caring. We will consider extending the Princess Royal Trust for Carers pilot project to identify hidden carers and examine the potential use of GP databases to identify and include information on carers.

The four priorities are respite, standards, legislation and information. Priorities are all very well, but carers are concerned—and have expressed that concern to me—that the impact of the strategy should be monitored. Therefore, from April 2000, local authorities will be required to report in detail on the use of the resources allocated to them for carers and respite services through community care plans and annual updates. Further, in future we will require those plans to be accompanied by a letter from local carers groups, confirming that they have been consulted in the planning and development of services and that they are satisfied that their authority's share of the £10 million has been used appropriately.

In addition, we have tasked the Scottish Executive's community care implementation unit to review practice in involving carers in service planning and provision. The unit will identify and promote good practice, and—importantly—will report to me on any barriers to the development of good-quality services for carers.

Further, carers' needs will in future be included as part of the existing statutory performance indicators and assessments currently required of local authorities by the Accounts Commission. I have asked that the new, national data set that is being devised by the Scottish Executive, COSLA and the Accounts Commission to monitor social care on a national basis should include information

on carers assessments and respite care.

I mentioned young carers in the context of legislation, but they are a particularly disadvantaged group, whose specific needs we must address further. In Dundee, we are providing £210,000 over the next three years to a project aimed at identifying and supporting young carers. I have asked my officials to work up proposals for research on the support that is available to young carers in Scotland and the guidance that is needed for professionals in health education and social care. In the meantime, we will make available to directors of education a young carers pack, which I expect to inform the work that is currently undertaken by guidance teachers.

It would be wrong to conclude without acknowledging the contribution that carers make. We could not deliver community care without them. They care unpaid, unsung and unwaveringly. The package is a significant step towards addressing their needs, but it is only a step.

Some people will try to calculate how much the contribution of carers is worth in cash terms, but that misses the point. Carers care because they want to, and because they love the people for whom they care. We cannot put a price on something that is priceless, or a value on what is invaluable.

Caring is what holds our society together. It is the practical, most powerful, profoundest solidarity between husband and wife, parent and child, friend and neighbour. It touches us all. Like most people, when I think of carers, I think first of my mother caring for her father, my aunt and uncle for my cousin, and my friend for his son.

We all know carers. Today, we place them at the centre of our Parliament and at the heart of Scotland. They will never go away. Whoever stands here can never ignore their needs again. I move the motion on their behalf.

I move,

That the Parliament welcomes the Executive's commitment in its Programme for Government to introduce a Carers' Strategy for Scotland to assist unpaid carers, and approves the Executive's proposals for that strategy.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C712631", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Carers Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27137, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 622.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 622.0, "ID": 27137, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 628.0, "ContributionID": 712631, "EditedText": "I can now give an interim answer to the point of order that was raised by Kay Ullrich. I understand that the parliamentary question was asked by Lewis Macdonald on Tuesday 23 November and was answered by Iain Gray yesterday. We are looking at ways and means of improving the flow of information in that area. I call Kay Ullrich to speak to and move amendment S1M-317.1", "EditedTextHTML": "I can now give an interim answer to the point of order that was raised by Kay Ullrich. I understand that the parliamentary question was asked by Lewis Macdonald on Tuesday 23 November and was answered by Iain Gray yesterday. We are looking at ways and means of improving the flow of information in that area.

I call Kay Ullrich to speak to and move amendment S1M-317.1

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1811E172P455C712632", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Carers Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27137, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 622.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 622.0, "ID": 27137, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ullrich, Kay", "ID": 1811, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kay Ullrich", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Kay Ullrich (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 631.0, "ContributionID": 712632, "EditedText": "welcome the sentiments that the minister has expressed. I am sure that carers across Scotland will join me in regarding this as a first step in the long-overdue recognition of the role played by carers in society. For far too long, the needs of carers and those for whom they care have been largely ignored by the Government and given a low priority in terms of local authority support and services. Scotland's half a million carers provide by far the larger share of both health and community care services and save the national health service and local authorities more than £3.4 billion every year. Of course—and perhaps most important—most people prefer to be cared for by their family and in their own home. As things stand, 60 per cent of carers get no practical help from any of the service providers. That may be due in part to the fact that many individuals and families do not recognise themselves as carers. Many, particularly women, simply see caring for disabled or elderly members of their family as their duty. I was a carer until very recently. Women have rightly always been regarded as the main carers for children, but for too long there has been very little recognition of the fact that, for many women, the caring role does not stop when the children leave home. That is very often just the time when they have to start caring for elderly or disabled relatives. Many have to give up their employment; many more have to juggle a career with their role as carer. That is why I ask the minister to address in his summing up the fact that the tax and benefits system penalises working carers. For example, if a carer's earnings are more than £50 a week, even though they spend every hour outside the working day caring for their relative, they are not entitled to invalid care allowance. If they give up their work to care for somebody on a 24-hour basis, they will be better off than if they were on income support by the grand sum of £13.95. Will the minister address the fact that invalid care allowance is not paid to people over 65? As my colleague Dorothy-Grace Elder will point out, many carers are pensioners themselves. Of course, benefits are a reserved matter, but I would find it impossible to talk about support for carers without addressing the issue of benefits. Will the minister make representations to the Labour Government at Westminster regarding that problem? I would also ask the minister to consider a national benefits take-up campaign to ensure that Scotland's carers receive the benefits to which they are entitled. I welcome the announcement of the diversion of £5 million for Scotland's carers, which is to be added to the £5 million that is already earmarked from local authority funding. However, I must say that I am disappointed that this is not new, additional money, but money that will have to come from cash-strapped local authority budgets. I will put the figures into perspective. Even if all the money reaches carers, £10 million works out at 38p per carer per week. When we consider that meals on wheels cost more than £1 per day, a home help costs £8 per hour, and a week's residential respite care costs £350, it is clear that Scotland's carers will still face huge problems. That is on top of the fact that the Labour Government has cut spending on community care by 12 per cent. Until such time as the continued underfunding of local authorities is rectified, initiatives such as the one announced today—good though it is—will have, at best, limited success. Local authorities will continue to rob Peter to pay Paul. Unfortunately, that is often achieved by dipping into the community care budget. I will take the current situation in Glasgow as an example. There are proposals to cut £3 million from services to elderly people, resulting in the loss of 150 home helps and the denial of that service to 219 people. That puts today's announcement into perspective. \"Caring for Carers\", the national strategy for carers, refers to the need to take account of the recommendations made by the Royal Commission on Long-term Care chaired by Sir Stewart Sutherland. As we all know, it is fast becoming the report that dare not speak its name. Sutherland highlights the needs of carers and makes some simple recommendations that would go a long way to improve the situation, such as the application by local authorities of carer-blind assessments so that the existence of a carer is not the reason for services being withheld or, indeed, withdrawn. Sutherland also highlighted the fact that a three- month disregard on the value of elderly people's homes and savings would not only have an impact on the so-called bedblocking crisis, but would allow time for rehabilitation and proper assessment of needs to allow many more of our elderly people to be cared for in their own homes, after a stay in hospital. As we have already found, the Executive's rhetoric does not quite match the reality. Despite today's announcement, the reality is that local government funding in the first three years of the Labour Government is £2.4 billion less than it was in the last three years of the Tory Administration. It is essential that the Scottish Parliament ensures that support for carers is a key part of our social policy for Scotland in the new millennium. As I said, I welcome today's announcement as a first step and as recognition of our debt to Scotland's carers. However, until such time as the tax and benefits system reflects carers' needs and local authorities are adequately funded to provide essential services, the needs of Scotland's carers will never be truly met. I move amendment S1M-317.1, to leave out from \"to assist\" to end and insert: \"and calls upon it to provide local authorities with the necessary funding to deliver the services required by Scotland's unpaid carers.\"", "EditedTextHTML": "welcome the sentiments that the minister has expressed. I am sure that carers across Scotland will join me in regarding this as a first step in the long-overdue recognition of the role played by carers in society.

For far too long, the needs of carers and those for whom they care have been largely ignored by the Government and given a low priority in terms of local authority support and services. Scotland's half a million carers provide by far the larger share of both health and community care services and save the national health service and local authorities more than £3.4 billion every year. Of course—and perhaps most important—most people prefer to be cared for by their family and in their own home.

As things stand, 60 per cent of carers get no practical help from any of the service providers. That may be due in part to the fact that many individuals and families do not recognise themselves as carers. Many, particularly women, simply see caring for disabled or elderly members of their family as their duty.

I was a carer until very recently. Women have rightly always been regarded as the main carers for children, but for too long there has been very little recognition of the fact that, for many women, the caring role does not stop when the children leave home. That is very often just the time when they have to start caring for elderly or disabled relatives.

Many have to give up their employment; many more have to juggle a career with their role as carer. That is why I ask the minister to address in his summing up the fact that the tax and benefits system penalises working carers. For example, if a carer's earnings are more than £50 a week, even though they spend every hour outside the working day caring for their relative, they are not entitled to invalid care allowance. If they give up their work to care for somebody on a 24-hour basis, they will be better off than if they were on income support by the grand sum of £13.95.

Will the minister address the fact that invalid care allowance is not paid to people over 65? As my colleague Dorothy-Grace Elder will point out, many carers are pensioners themselves. Of course, benefits are a reserved matter, but I would find it impossible to talk about support for carers without addressing the issue of benefits. Will the minister make representations to the Labour Government at Westminster regarding that problem?

I would also ask the minister to consider a national benefits take-up campaign to ensure that Scotland's carers receive the benefits to which

they are entitled. I welcome the announcement of the diversion of £5 million for Scotland's carers, which is to be added to the £5 million that is already earmarked from local authority funding. However, I must say that I am disappointed that this is not new, additional money, but money that will have to come from cash-strapped local authority budgets.

I will put the figures into perspective. Even if all the money reaches carers, £10 million works out at 38p per carer per week. When we consider that meals on wheels cost more than £1 per day, a home help costs £8 per hour, and a week's residential respite care costs £350, it is clear that Scotland's carers will still face huge problems. That is on top of the fact that the Labour Government has cut spending on community care by 12 per cent.

Until such time as the continued underfunding of local authorities is rectified, initiatives such as the one announced today—good though it is—will have, at best, limited success. Local authorities will continue to rob Peter to pay Paul. Unfortunately, that is often achieved by dipping into the community care budget.

I will take the current situation in Glasgow as an example. There are proposals to cut £3 million from services to elderly people, resulting in the loss of 150 home helps and the denial of that service to 219 people. That puts today's announcement into perspective.

\"Caring for Carers\", the national strategy for carers, refers to the need to take account of the recommendations made by the Royal Commission on Long-term Care chaired by Sir Stewart Sutherland. As we all know, it is fast becoming the report that dare not speak its name. Sutherland highlights the needs of carers and makes some simple recommendations that would go a long way to improve the situation, such as the application by local authorities of carer-blind assessments so that the existence of a carer is not the reason for services being withheld or, indeed, withdrawn.

Sutherland also highlighted the fact that a three- month disregard on the value of elderly people's homes and savings would not only have an impact on the so-called bedblocking crisis, but would allow time for rehabilitation and proper assessment of needs to allow many more of our elderly people to be cared for in their own homes, after a stay in hospital.

As we have already found, the Executive's rhetoric does not quite match the reality. Despite today's announcement, the reality is that local government funding in the first three years of the Labour Government is £2.4 billion less than it was in the last three years of the Tory Administration. It is essential that the Scottish Parliament ensures that support for carers is a key part of our social policy for Scotland in the new millennium.

As I said, I welcome today's announcement as a first step and as recognition of our debt to Scotland's carers. However, until such time as the tax and benefits system reflects carers' needs and local authorities are adequately funded to provide essential services, the needs of Scotland's carers will never be truly met.

I move amendment S1M-317.1, to leave out from \"to assist\" to end and insert:

\"and calls upon it to provide local authorities with the necessary funding to deliver the services required by Scotland's unpaid carers.\"

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2234E7P20C712633", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Carers Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27137, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 622.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 622.0, "ID": 27137, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Aitken, Bill", "ID": 2234, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bill Aitken", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bill Aitken (Glasgow) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 634.0, "ContributionID": 712633, "EditedText": "We welcome today's motion. I congratulate the minister and Kay Ullrich on their contributions to an evocative and important matter. The minister is also to be congratulated on being quite honest. He has not tried to claim that he is putting a great deal more money in. He is talking about £5 million. If we bear in mind my comments about hype over the past few days, the minister's speech made a refreshing change. The Administration is to be congratulated on making constructive proposals. We shall await with interest—and perhaps increasing cynicism— the final proposals. However, at this stage, there seems to be consensus, which is to be encouraged. I am grateful to have this opportunity to pay my own tribute, and the tributes of the Conservative party, to carers. They are an army of unsung heroes whose efforts go largely unrecognised— and certainly unrewarded. Parliament has a clear duty to do everything possible to recognise and reward—albeit in a detached but realistic way— the efforts that many people throughout the country make to assist those who are less fortunate. What is the profile of a carer? As Kay Ullrich quite properly said, carers are usually women. Perhaps, Kay, it is because women live longer than men that, most of the time, they get the heavy end of the load. Women's contribution towards caring is certainly significant. I note that the minister has undertaken to ask, in the next census, the appropriate questions to get a clearer profile of carers. The general household survey gives some interesting figures, and I commend it to him. In particular, it draws attention to the number of young people under the age of 16 who are actively involved in caring. Something like half a million people in Scotland are involved in caring, and 5,000 of them are under 16. To them in particular we owe a real debt.How can we make matters better? Ultimately, more resources are the answer, but—this is perhaps where I part company with Kay Ullrich and the amendment she moved—we have to recognise that local government's contribution over the past few years has not been especially significant. As I am sure Susan Deacon will accept, bedblocking is a problem. If local government had been providing appropriate community care services, we would not have arrived at the present situation—more than 1,700 patients confined in hospital who could be receiving care out in the community, where they would be very much happier and able to contribute to wider society. How can we extend the body of carers? In most cases, carers are relatives; in other cases, they are—as Iain Gray said—close personal friends. But is a carer not also someone who works for charity, or who is a member of a church or voluntary organisation, and who gives of his or her time in order to assist? Should we not be examining—as Kay Ullrich suggests—our taxation system so that we can help people to make that contribution to caring, and perhaps encourage more people to do so? It is not, of course, a question only of finance. Iain Gray dealt with that point. I would, however, like to mentions one statistic that I think is worth noting. If we paid the 500,000 people who contribute towards caring a nominal amount of £40 a week, the bill would work out at £1 billion a year, which measures up almost exactly to the social work budget for the current financial year. Perhaps that point should be recognised and accepted. Thought should also be given to people who make their contribution in the more inaccessible rural parts of Scotland. Surely we should consider extending the rebate on fuel duty to community transport schemes. That would have a marked effect on people in those areas.", "EditedTextHTML": "We welcome today's motion. I congratulate the minister and Kay Ullrich on their contributions to an evocative and important matter.

The minister is also to be congratulated on being quite honest. He has not tried to claim that he is putting a great deal more money in. He is talking about £5 million. If we bear in mind my comments about hype over the past few days, the minister's speech made a refreshing change.

The Administration is to be congratulated on making constructive proposals. We shall await with interest—and perhaps increasing cynicism— the final proposals. However, at this stage, there seems to be consensus, which is to be encouraged.

I am grateful to have this opportunity to pay my own tribute, and the tributes of the Conservative party, to carers. They are an army of unsung heroes whose efforts go largely unrecognised— and certainly unrewarded. Parliament has a clear duty to do everything possible to recognise and reward—albeit in a detached but realistic way— the efforts that many people throughout the country make to assist those who are less fortunate.

What is the profile of a carer? As Kay Ullrich quite properly said, carers are usually women. Perhaps, Kay, it is because women live longer than men that, most of the time, they get the heavy end of the load. Women's contribution towards caring is certainly significant.

I note that the minister has undertaken to ask, in the next census, the appropriate questions to get a clearer profile of carers. The general household survey gives some interesting figures, and I commend it to him. In particular, it draws attention to the number of young people under the age of 16 who are actively involved in caring. Something like half a million people in Scotland are involved in caring, and 5,000 of them are under 16. To

them in particular we owe a real debt.

How can we make matters better? Ultimately, more resources are the answer, but—this is perhaps where I part company with Kay Ullrich and the amendment she moved—we have to recognise that local government's contribution over the past few years has not been especially significant. As I am sure Susan Deacon will accept, bedblocking is a problem. If local government had been providing appropriate community care services, we would not have arrived at the present situation—more than 1,700 patients confined in hospital who could be receiving care out in the community, where they would be very much happier and able to contribute to wider society.

How can we extend the body of carers? In most cases, carers are relatives; in other cases, they are—as Iain Gray said—close personal friends. But is a carer not also someone who works for charity, or who is a member of a church or voluntary organisation, and who gives of his or her time in order to assist? Should we not be examining—as Kay Ullrich suggests—our taxation system so that we can help people to make that contribution to caring, and perhaps encourage more people to do so?

It is not, of course, a question only of finance. Iain Gray dealt with that point. I would, however, like to mentions one statistic that I think is worth noting. If we paid the 500,000 people who contribute towards caring a nominal amount of £40 a week, the bill would work out at £1 billion a year, which measures up almost exactly to the social work budget for the current financial year. Perhaps that point should be recognised and accepted.

Thought should also be given to people who make their contribution in the more inaccessible rural parts of Scotland. Surely we should consider extending the rebate on fuel duty to community transport schemes. That would have a marked effect on people in those areas.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2234E7P20C712635", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Carers Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27137, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 622.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 622.0, "ID": 27137, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Aitken, Bill", "ID": 2234, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bill Aitken", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bill Aitken: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 638.0, "ContributionID": 712635, "EditedText": "Of course it is a question of finance, but it is also a question of enabling the people who might be on the periphery of making a contribution to do so. I do not want to spoil the consensus on this matter. We recognise that there is a lot to do and that the Executive's proposals are worthy of support.", "EditedTextHTML": "Of course it is a question of finance, but it is also a question of enabling the people who might be on the periphery of making a contribution to do so.

I do not want to spoil the consensus on this matter. We recognise that there is a lot to do and that the Executive's proposals are worthy of support.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C712637", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Carers Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27137, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 622.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 622.0, "ID": 27137, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 643.0, "ContributionID": 712637, "EditedText": "A number of members want to speak in this afternoon's debate. I ask members to keep their speeches as close as possible to four minutes.", "EditedTextHTML": "A number of members want to speak in this afternoon's debate. I ask members to keep their speeches as close as possible to four minutes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1805E13P109C712638", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Carers Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27137, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 622.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 622.0, "ID": 27137, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Whitefield, Karen", "ID": 1805, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Airdrie and Shotts" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Karen Whitefield", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Karen Whitefield (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 646.0, "ContributionID": 712638, "EditedText": "I welcome today's debate. It is essential that our discussion of this issue is informed and constructive. We must move the carers agenda forward. The Scottish Executive has placed carers high on the political agenda, as is evidenced by their inclusion in the programme for government and by the commitment to provide an additional £5 million for carers.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome today's debate. It is essential that our discussion of this issue is informed and constructive. We must move the carers agenda forward.

The Scottish Executive has placed carers high on the political agenda, as is evidenced by their inclusion in the programme for government and by the commitment to provide an additional £5 million for carers.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1805E13P109C712640", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Carers Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27137, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 622.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 622.0, "ID": 27137, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Whitefield, Karen", "ID": 1805, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Airdrie and Shotts" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Karen Whitefield", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Karen Whitefield: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 650.0, "ContributionID": 712640, "EditedText": "Yes, I agree.It is especially important that priority has been given to young carers. It is estimated that there are around 5,000 young carers in Scotland, a third of whom care for an adult with a mental illness. Young carers face many pressures and problems, including poor physical health and injury, lack of time for recreational and peer-centred activities and conflicts between caring responsibilities and schooling. Schools must be one of the key points of contact between young carers and support services. With that in mind, I encourage all Scottish schools to use the young carers pack produced by the Carers National Association. I recently had the pleasure of hosting a briefing session presented by young carers from across Scotland. The briefing, which was co-ordinated by some of the major Scottish carers organisations, was well attended by members from all parties. All those who attended were touched by the stories that the young carers had to tell. It is important that young carers have a voice; only by listening to them can we provide the support structures that are needed. One young carer, Jamie from Edinburgh, told her story. She said: \"I have been a young carer since I was six years old, I am now seventeen. Because of all the time I spent caring for my mum I didn't have much time to myself. I didn't go outtoplay ...I felt like I had to be with my mum all the time. When I was at primary School I found it very difficult to mix with other children . . . I didn't think they would talk to me, all I could think about was being bullied . . . Nobody at school ever asked if I had any problems at home. Just before my exams I got involved with the Edinburgh Young Carers Project . . . When I started talking about things I felt great . . . I think that it is important for every young carer to receive some kind of support.\" I, too, believe that it is important for every young carer to receive support. Current Scottish legislation is flawed. Young carers under the age of 16 do not have a statutory right to request assessment. I welcome the Executive's recognition of that problem and its commitment to draw up legislative proposals as soon as possible to extend the Carers (Recognition and Services) Act 1995. Carers organisations recognise the need to proceed carefully and methodically. The carers legislation working group will include representatives of service users and carers groups and will ensure the production of well-drafted legislation.It is important that we acknowledge the valuable services that young carers provide and highlight the range of issues that impact on them. I welcome the measures detailed in the strategy for carers in Scotland. We have a long way to go, but thanks to the Scottish Executive we have at last embarked on that journey.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes, I agree.

It is especially important that priority has been given to young carers. It is estimated that there are around 5,000 young carers in Scotland, a third of whom care for an adult with a mental illness. Young carers face many pressures and problems, including poor physical health and injury, lack of time for recreational and peer-centred activities and conflicts between caring responsibilities and schooling. Schools must be one of the key points of contact between young carers and support services. With that in mind, I encourage all Scottish schools to use the young carers pack produced by the Carers National Association.

I recently had the pleasure of hosting a briefing session presented by young carers from across Scotland. The briefing, which was co-ordinated by some of the major Scottish carers organisations, was well attended by members from all parties. All those who attended were touched by the stories that the young carers had to tell. It is important that young carers have a voice; only by listening to them can we provide the support structures that are needed.

One young carer, Jamie from Edinburgh, told her story. She said:

\"I have been a young carer since I was six years old, I am now seventeen. Because of all the time I spent caring for my mum I didn't have much time to myself. I didn't go outtoplay ...I felt like I had to be with my mum all the time.

When I was at primary School I found it very difficult to mix with other children . . . I didn't think they would talk to me, all I could think about was being bullied . . . Nobody at school ever asked if I had any problems at home.

Just before my exams I got involved with the Edinburgh Young Carers Project . . . When I started talking about things I felt great . . . I think that it is important for every young carer to receive some kind of support.\"

I, too, believe that it is important for every young carer to receive support. Current Scottish legislation is flawed. Young carers under the age of 16 do not have a statutory right to request assessment. I welcome the Executive's recognition of that problem and its commitment to draw up legislative proposals as soon as possible to extend the Carers (Recognition and Services) Act 1995.

Carers organisations recognise the need to proceed carefully and methodically. The carers legislation working group will include representatives of service users and carers groups and will ensure the production of well-drafted

legislation.

It is important that we acknowledge the valuable services that young carers provide and highlight the range of issues that impact on them. I welcome the measures detailed in the strategy for carers in Scotland. We have a long way to go, but thanks to the Scottish Executive we have at last embarked on that journey.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C712644", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Carers Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27137, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 622.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 622.0, "ID": 27137, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 661.0, "ContributionID": 712644, "EditedText": "There is time for one more speaker. I call Kate MacLean; you have three minutes.", "EditedTextHTML": "There is time for one more speaker. I call Kate MacLean; you have three minutes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1807E84P267C712645", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Carers Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27137, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 622.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 622.0, "ID": 27137, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Maclean, Kate", "ID": 1807, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dundee West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kate Maclean", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Kate MacLean (Dundee West) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 664.0, "ContributionID": 712645, "EditedText": "Thank you, Presiding Officer. I will try to be brief. Iain Gray said that one of the first events he attended as a minister was a carers event. I wonder whether it was the event that I attended with him, at the Marryat Hall in Dundee. He made a commitment at that time to introduce the strategy. I made a more modest commitment to hold a special surgery for carers in Dundee and I did so recently at the Princess Royal Trust Carers Centre. Many people came along, some of them giving up precious respite time to do so. People came with specific problems, but a general theme emerged. The first thing that struck me was that carers were asking for very little. I thought that people would make many more demands, but often they wanted a couple of hours off just to do shopping, to visit a friend or go to the cinema, or to have some breathing space. The other thing that came through quite strongly was that although carers' needs are sometimes met in terms of time off, there is a lack of appropriate respite from day care. That is particularly so in cases involving young adults with learning difficulties and people with early onset dementia. Many of the facilities that are provided are for the elderly and infirm and are not suitable for younger and more active people. At a meeting with Dundee City Council's social work office, it became clear to me that there is a commitment to improving the lot of carers. The office had just published a report called \"Breaking New Ground\", which was the result of the work of a short-term working group. It identified lack of funding as a problem, so I welcome the minister's announcement about the grant-aided expenditure allocation being doubled to £10 million— notwithstanding the fact that it comes within the £40 million increase for social work that has already been announced. I hope that if there are to be increases in GAE in the future, it might be possible to find new money for them. I would be grateful if Mr Gray could say in his summing-up how the additional GAE will be allocated and what the criteria for allocation will be. I am not clear about the mechanism that will ensure that the additional GAE is spent where it is intended to be spent. The carers strategy document suggests that there might be a possibility of conflict between local authorities and carers groups. I welcome the fact that there will be wide consultation, but I hope that in addition to consulting carers organisations, the Executive will take on board the fact that because of their particular problems, carers will need assistance with participating in consultation and discussion. My final point—on which I do not expect an answer now from the minister—is important and I hope that the Executive will take it on board. I welcome the strong emphasis on the need to support young carers. That area has been overlooked in the past. Young people with caring responsibilities have been neglected in terms of their social and educational needs. I plead that the minister will extend the definition of young carers to those aged 16 to 18. I hope that that can be examined closely. The youth care group in Dundee, which Iain Gray mentioned, supports young carers up to 18 years of age. I welcome the report. I think that it sends out a good message to carers—that their views and opinions are at last being considered.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you, Presiding Officer. I will try to be brief.

Iain Gray said that one of the first events he attended as a minister was a carers event. I wonder whether it was the event that I attended with him, at the Marryat Hall in Dundee. He made a commitment at that time to introduce the strategy. I made a more modest commitment to hold a special surgery for carers in Dundee and I did so recently at the Princess Royal Trust Carers Centre.

Many people came along, some of them giving up precious respite time to do so. People came with specific problems, but a general theme emerged. The first thing that struck me was that carers were asking for very little. I thought that people would make many more demands, but often they wanted a couple of hours off just to do shopping, to visit a friend or go to the cinema, or to have some breathing space.

The other thing that came through quite strongly was that although carers' needs are sometimes met in terms of time off, there is a lack of appropriate respite from day care. That is particularly so in cases involving young adults with learning difficulties and people with early onset dementia. Many of the facilities that are provided are for the elderly and infirm and are not suitable for younger and more active people.

At a meeting with Dundee City Council's social work office, it became clear to me that there is a commitment to improving the lot of carers. The office had just published a report called \"Breaking New Ground\", which was the result of the work of a short-term working group. It identified lack of funding as a problem, so I welcome the minister's announcement about the grant-aided expenditure allocation being doubled to £10 million— notwithstanding the fact that it comes within the £40 million increase for social work that has already been announced. I hope that if there are to be increases in GAE in the future, it might be possible to find new money for them.

I would be grateful if Mr Gray could say in his summing-up how the additional GAE will be allocated and what the criteria for allocation will be. I am not clear about the mechanism that will ensure that the additional GAE is spent where it is intended to be spent. The carers strategy document suggests that there might be a possibility of conflict between local authorities and carers groups.

I welcome the fact that there will be wide consultation, but I hope that in addition to consulting carers organisations, the Executive will take on board the fact that because of their particular problems, carers will need assistance with participating in consultation and discussion.

My final point—on which I do not expect an answer now from the minister—is important and I hope that the Executive will take it on board. I welcome the strong emphasis on the need to support young carers. That area has been overlooked in the past. Young people with caring responsibilities have been neglected in terms of their social and educational needs. I plead that the minister will extend the definition of young carers to those aged 16 to 18. I hope that that can be examined closely. The youth care group in Dundee, which Iain Gray mentioned, supports young carers up to 18 years of age.

I welcome the report. I think that it sends out a good message to carers—that their views and opinions are at last being considered.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C712650", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Carers Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27137, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 622.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 622.0, "ID": 27137, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 675.0, "ContributionID": 712650, "EditedText": "I am not aware that that is a practice, Mr Sheridan. For your information, I believe that the number is three.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am not aware that that is a practice, Mr Sheridan. For your information, I believe that the number is three.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C712685", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27138, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 704.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 704.0, "ID": 27138, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 742.0, "ContributionID": 712685, "EditedText": "There will be a division.", "EditedTextHTML": "There will be a division.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C712692", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Kintyre Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27139, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 752.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 752.0, "ID": 27139, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 753.0, "ContributionID": 712692, "EditedText": "We now move to members' business. I make my usual appeal for members who are not staying to leave quietly. Members' business today is motion S1M-261, in the name of George Lyon, on the Kintyre economy.", "EditedTextHTML": "We now move to members' business. I make my usual appeal for members who are not staying to leave quietly. Members' business today is motion S1M-261, in the name of George Lyon, on the Kintyre economy.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1985E207P501C712655", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Carers Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27137, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 622.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 622.0, "ID": 27137, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hamilton, Mr Duncan", "ID": 1985, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Hamilton: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 687.0, "ContributionID": 712655, "EditedText": "I will not give way.The £5 million is a relaunch of money that has already been allocated. Welcome though that money is, let us not go down the track of suggesting that it is either new or extra money. I would like the minister to address three general financial points. The first concerns the Government's long-term commitment to the strategy, as everyone appreciates that the more money that we can put behind support for carers the better. Robert Brown mentioned the Government's pledge of a long-term commitment. I wish that that there was one. The Government's document says: \"If, to ensure real improvements, it is necessary to increase that sum, we will consider doing so\". There is no long-term pledge, merely a pledge to consider the matter. Instead of the three-year pledge in England, this is a one-year pledge only. I want to know what the Minister for Health and Community Care means by long term and what categorical assurances she can give us today. I also want to ask her about monitoring the strategy. The document says: \"Community care plans will be submitted to the Scottish Executive for scrutiny. From now on we will require them to be accompanied by a letter from local carers' groups confirming that they have been consulted in the planning and development of new services and that they are satisfied that each authority's share of the £10 million has been used appropriately.\" What will happen if that money is not used appropriately and if the local carers groups feel that the local authority has not acted in their best interest and not met the requirements? Will that mean a reduction in amount of money for that local authority and, if so, will that not risk reducing the amount of money going to the people who need it? I look forward to a clear enunciation of the policy on long-term monitoring. On the division of funds, Mr Gray highlighted three priorities for the Government: learning disabilities, ethnic minorities and rural costs. He rightly said that in rural communities—which Mr Aitken also spoke about—there is an additional burden. Is that to say that the funding disbursed from the two lots of £5 million will follow those priorities? Will that mean that local authorities that have a greater emphasis on one of them—the Highlands and Islands, for example—will receive greater resources than local authorities elsewhere in Scotland? If not—which would mean an additional burden on those local authorities without adequate resources to implement the plans—why not? I hope that we will have support from our Liberal Democrat colleagues, as I am in the perhaps unique position of supporting an SNP amendment without having heard one argument against more money going to local authorities. Mr Brown made the case clearly for more money. Kay Ullrich told us that £2.4 billion less will have been spent in the first three years of this Administration than in the last three years of the Tory Government. That is the context of any announcement today or yesterday, in the press or in Parliament. It equates to a 12 per cent real-terms cut. If the 19p a week—which is, of course, welcome—is the summit of the minister's ambition, that is not good enough. We need proper investment in local authorities, proper back-up for the priorities that have rightly been identified and a step further than has been made today. On a report card, the Executive's efforts might merit a C plus—pass marks, but must do better. In supporting the amendment, I emphasise that the priorities identified are wise but that the resources must be made available to allow local authorities and national Government to achieve those objectives.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will not give way.

The £5 million is a relaunch of money that has already been allocated. Welcome though that

money is, let us not go down the track of suggesting that it is either new or extra money.

I would like the minister to address three general financial points. The first concerns the Government's long-term commitment to the strategy, as everyone appreciates that the more money that we can put behind support for carers the better. Robert Brown mentioned the Government's pledge of a long-term commitment. I wish that that there was one. The Government's document says:

\"If, to ensure real improvements, it is necessary to increase that sum, we will consider doing so\".

There is no long-term pledge, merely a pledge to consider the matter. Instead of the three-year pledge in England, this is a one-year pledge only. I want to know what the Minister for Health and Community Care means by long term and what categorical assurances she can give us today.

I also want to ask her about monitoring the strategy. The document says:

\"Community care plans will be submitted to the Scottish Executive for scrutiny. From now on we will require them to be accompanied by a letter from local carers' groups confirming that they have been consulted in the planning and development of new services and that they are satisfied that each authority's share of the £10 million has been used appropriately.\"

What will happen if that money is not used appropriately and if the local carers groups feel that the local authority has not acted in their best interest and not met the requirements? Will that mean a reduction in amount of money for that local authority and, if so, will that not risk reducing the amount of money going to the people who need it? I look forward to a clear enunciation of the policy on long-term monitoring.

On the division of funds, Mr Gray highlighted three priorities for the Government: learning disabilities, ethnic minorities and rural costs. He rightly said that in rural communities—which Mr Aitken also spoke about—there is an additional burden. Is that to say that the funding disbursed from the two lots of £5 million will follow those priorities? Will that mean that local authorities that have a greater emphasis on one of them—the Highlands and Islands, for example—will receive greater resources than local authorities elsewhere in Scotland? If not—which would mean an additional burden on those local authorities without adequate resources to implement the plans—why not?

I hope that we will have support from our Liberal Democrat colleagues, as I am in the perhaps unique position of supporting an SNP amendment without having heard one argument against more money going to local authorities. Mr Brown made the case clearly for more money. Kay Ullrich told us that £2.4 billion less will have been spent in the first three years of this Administration than in the last three years of the Tory Government. That is the context of any announcement today or yesterday, in the press or in Parliament. It equates to a 12 per cent real-terms cut. If the 19p a week—which is, of course, welcome—is the summit of the minister's ambition, that is not good enough. We need proper investment in local authorities, proper back-up for the priorities that have rightly been identified and a step further than has been made today. On a report card, the Executive's efforts might merit a C plus—pass marks, but must do better.

In supporting the amendment, I emphasise that the priorities identified are wise but that the resources must be made available to allow local authorities and national Government to achieve those objectives.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C712656", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Carers Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27137, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 622.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 622.0, "ID": 27137, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 690.0, "ContributionID": 712656, "EditedText": "Let me say at the outset how genuinely pleased and proud I am to be standing here today shoulder to shoulder with Iain Gray and other members of the Executive to put the strategy for carers before the Scottish Parliament and to place the needs and the voices of carers at the centre of our consideration. Until a few moments ago, I thought that I would be able to welcome whole-heartedly and unequivocally the consensus and constructive comments that had emerged during the debate. That spirit was maintained until the last speech, which, sadly, was grudging, patronising and insulting—not to me or to the Executive, but to the carers and the people on whom the debate has focused and whose needs we care about. I will, gladly, deal with the SNP amendment in my comments. I welcome many of the comments that members of the Opposition have made today but, as various members said yesterday, SNP members would do well to decide once and for all whether they welcome particular measures. If they welcome them, a single transferable amendment for every debate and for every motion is not appropriate. I suggest respectfully to the SNP that its amendment is not appropriate. Speaker after speaker talked about the contribution that unpaid, informal carers make; I will not reiterate those points. However, I concur with the view that, for too long, carers have been taken for granted. Today, as Iain Gray and Margaret Smith said, we want to start—yes, start—to redress that situation. We have signalled our determination to ensure that the needs of carers are addressed and, as important, that their voices are heard. I am conscious that when I say \"their voices\", that feels slightly wrong because, as evidenced in the debate, this matter is not just about them—in many ways, it is about us. It is about our families, our relatives, our loved ones and our communities. It is about what we value and whom we value as a Parliament and as a country. Many members have made heartfelt speeches based on personal experience. That perspective is important and enhances our capacity to be effective policy makers and legislators. I will deal with some of the points that were raised. I am conscious of the fact that I will be able to address only a few of them, but we have listened carefully to the comments that have been made—many of them will be taken up in the consultations and discussions that we will be having in the weeks and months ahead. For example, some of the points that Kate MacLean and Fiona McLeod made might appropriately be considered by the legislation working group. Reference was made to reserved matters. Of course we recognise that there are policy areas that are reserved and dealt with at a UK level but that impact upon carers and users of services. In our work, we will embrace many of those areas. For example, in the information for carers, we do not draw a line between what is reserved and what is devolved; we ensure that all the information is brought together. We will concentrate our efforts and energies on making changes in the areas in which we have powers to do so. That is right and proper and it is the correct use of our time. Of course we will continue to co-operate and liaise with our colleagues south of the border to ensure that we make the maximum impact and deliver the maximum benefit to the people of Scotland. I give an assurance that we will continue to do that in relation to the royal commission and to many of the matters that have been mentioned today. There have rightly been a considerable number of references to local government. We want to work with local government to make a difference. We want to ensure that we work together so that we come up with solutions that are right for the people of Scotland and that deliver services as effectively as possible. Many members have mentioned the need for effective communication and joined-up working. We are putting that into practice and translating rhetoric into reality. Iain Gray and I met representatives of every local authority and every NHS trust just a couple of weeks ago to discuss how we could take forward our community care agenda. At that meeting, we were addressed by a carer—directly and vociferously—and we will be taking forward the points that were raised.", "EditedTextHTML": "Let me say at the outset how genuinely pleased and proud I am to be standing here today shoulder to shoulder with Iain Gray and other members of the Executive to put the strategy for carers before the Scottish Parliament and to place the needs and the voices of carers at the centre of our consideration.

Until a few moments ago, I thought that I would be able to welcome whole-heartedly and unequivocally the consensus and constructive comments that had emerged during the debate. That spirit was maintained until the last speech, which, sadly, was grudging, patronising and insulting—not to me or to the Executive, but to the carers and the people on whom the debate has focused and whose needs we care about.

I will, gladly, deal with the SNP amendment in my comments. I welcome many of the comments that members of the Opposition have made today but, as various members said yesterday, SNP members would do well to decide once and for all whether they welcome particular measures. If they welcome them, a single transferable amendment for every debate and for every motion is not appropriate. I suggest respectfully to the SNP that its amendment is not appropriate.

Speaker after speaker talked about the contribution that unpaid, informal carers make; I will not reiterate those points. However, I concur with the view that, for too long, carers have been taken for granted. Today, as Iain Gray and Margaret Smith said, we want to start—yes, start—to redress that situation. We have signalled our determination to ensure that the needs of carers are addressed and, as important, that their voices are heard.

I am conscious that when I say \"their voices\", that feels slightly wrong because, as evidenced in the debate, this matter is not just about them—in many ways, it is about us. It is about our families, our relatives, our loved ones and our communities. It is about what we value and whom we value as a Parliament and as a country. Many members have made heartfelt speeches based on personal experience. That perspective is important and enhances our capacity to be effective policy makers and legislators.

I will deal with some of the points that were raised. I am conscious of the fact that I will be able to address only a few of them, but we have listened carefully to the comments that have been made—many of them will be taken up in the consultations and discussions that we will be having in the weeks and months ahead. For example, some of the points that Kate MacLean and Fiona McLeod made might appropriately be considered by the legislation working group.

Reference was made to reserved matters. Of course we recognise that there are policy areas that are reserved and dealt with at a UK level but that impact upon carers and users of services. In our work, we will embrace many of those areas. For example, in the information for carers, we do not draw a line between what is reserved and what is devolved; we ensure that all the information is brought together. We will concentrate our efforts and energies on making changes in the areas in which we have powers to do so. That is right and proper and it is the correct use of our time. Of course we will continue to co-operate and liaise with our colleagues south of the border to ensure that we make the maximum impact and deliver the maximum benefit to the people of Scotland. I give an assurance that we will continue to do that in relation to the royal commission and to many of the matters that have been mentioned today.

There have rightly been a considerable number of references to local government. We want to work with local government to make a difference. We want to ensure that we work together so that we come up with solutions that are right for the people of Scotland and that deliver services as effectively as possible.

Many members have mentioned the need for effective communication and joined-up working. We are putting that into practice and translating rhetoric into reality. Iain Gray and I met representatives of every local authority and every NHS trust just a couple of weeks ago to discuss how we could take forward our community care agenda. At that meeting, we were addressed by a carer—directly and vociferously—and we will be taking forward the points that were raised.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C712661", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Carers Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27137, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 622.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 622.0, "ID": 27137, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Monteith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 700.0, "ContributionID": 712661, "EditedText": "Will Susan Deacon give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Susan Deacon give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C712667", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27138, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 704.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 704.0, "ID": 27138, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 713.0, "ContributionID": 712667, "EditedText": "The result of the division is: For 63, Against 18, Abstentions 25.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result of the division is: For 63, Against 18, Abstentions 25.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712668", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27138, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 704.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 704.0, "ID": 27138, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 715.0, "ContributionID": 712668, "EditedText": "Amendment agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C712669", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27138, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 704.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 704.0, "ID": 27138, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 716.0, "ContributionID": 712669, "EditedText": "The second question is, that amendment S1M-316.2, in the name of Mr Alex Salmond, which seeks to amend motion S1M-316, in the name of Phil Gallie, on law and order, be agreed to. Are we agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "The second question is, that amendment S1M-316.2, in the name of Mr

Alex Salmond, which seeks to amend motion S1M-316, in the name of Phil Gallie, on law and order, be agreed to. Are we agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C712673", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27138, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 704.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 704.0, "ID": 27138, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 723.0, "ContributionID": 712673, "EditedText": "The result of the division is: For 28, Against 78, Abstentions 0.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result of the division is: For 28, Against 78, Abstentions 0.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712674", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27138, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 704.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 704.0, "ID": 27138, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 725.0, "ContributionID": 712674, "EditedText": "Amendment disagreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment disagreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712688", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27138, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 704.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 704.0, "ID": 27138, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 747.0, "ContributionID": 712688, "EditedText": "Amendment disagreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment disagreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C712689", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27138, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 704.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 704.0, "ID": 27138, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 748.0, "ContributionID": 712689, "EditedText": "The fifth question is, that motion S1M-317, in the name of Iain Gray, on the Executive's commitment to the introduction of a carers strategy, be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "The fifth question is, that motion S1M-317, in the name of Iain Gray, on the Executive's commitment to the introduction of a carers strategy, be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2066E64P88C712698", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Kintyre Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27139, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 752.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 752.0, "ID": 27139, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McGrigor, Jamie", "ID": 2066, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie McGrigor", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Jamie McGrigor (Highlands and Islands) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 765.0, "ContributionID": 712698, "EditedText": "The Kintyre peninsula is a very special part of Scotland, particularly to me, as I have lived in Argyll for more than 40 years. It used to be one of the more prosperous areas in Argyll, with some good agricultural land that suited mixed farming and dairy farming, unlike most of the rest of the county, which is limited to disadvantaged hill farms. Kintyre suffers now because it is a peninsula and therefore similar to an island. I remind the Executive that Argyll does not yet have special islands needs allowance. Perhaps the Executive ought to consider awarding that to the area. Peripheral communities are being forgotten under the present Executive. The disastrous downturn in all areas of agriculture in the past two years has hit Kintyre very hard. The cost of transport to faraway markets exaggerates the hideously low prices that farmers are receiving for sheep and beef cattle. The extra slaughterhouse procedures and charges have made older sheep virtually worthless. The Government should never have imposed those procedures and charges without working out how to tackle the ensuing chaos, in which it is not worth taking animals to market. Many are being shot on the farms, to the great distress of the owners. Why will this Executive not take the lead on lifting the beef-on-the-bone ban in order to put Scottish beef back on the most prominent shelves of European shops, where it deserves to be? On the dairy sector, it is vital for the area that Campbeltown Creamery continues to be successful. Dairy quotas must continue to be ring- fenced. The dairy sector has been very hard hit by milk prices falling as low as 16p per litre, yet we continue to import cheap milk from abroad at the expense of our dairy farmers.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Kintyre peninsula is a very special part of Scotland, particularly to me, as I have lived in Argyll for more than 40 years. It used to be one of the more prosperous areas in Argyll, with some good agricultural land that suited mixed farming and dairy farming, unlike most of the rest of the county, which is limited to disadvantaged hill farms.

Kintyre suffers now because it is a peninsula and therefore similar to an island. I remind the Executive that Argyll does not yet have special islands needs allowance. Perhaps the Executive ought to consider awarding that to the area. Peripheral communities are being forgotten under the present Executive.

The disastrous downturn in all areas of agriculture in the past two years has hit Kintyre very hard. The cost of transport to faraway markets exaggerates the hideously low prices that farmers are receiving for sheep and beef cattle. The extra slaughterhouse procedures and charges have made older sheep virtually worthless. The Government should never have imposed those procedures and charges without working out how to tackle the ensuing chaos, in which it is not worth taking animals to market. Many are being shot on the farms, to the great distress of the owners.

Why will this Executive not take the lead on lifting the beef-on-the-bone ban in order to put Scottish beef back on the most prominent shelves of European shops, where it deserves to be?

On the dairy sector, it is vital for the area that Campbeltown Creamery continues to be successful. Dairy quotas must continue to be ring- fenced. The dairy sector has been very hard hit by milk prices falling as low as 16p per litre, yet we continue to import cheap milk from abroad at the expense of our dairy farmers.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2066E64P88C712703", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Kintyre Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27139, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 752.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 752.0, "ID": 27139, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McGrigor, Jamie", "ID": 2066, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie McGrigor", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McGrigor: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 777.0, "ContributionID": 712703, "EditedText": "The only turbot experiment that I know of is the one off Islay, which ended in a disastrous outbreak of viral haemorrhagic septicaemia.", "EditedTextHTML": "The only turbot experiment that I know of is the one off Islay, which ended in a disastrous outbreak of viral haemorrhagic septicaemia.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1814E135P516C712705", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Kintyre Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27139, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 752.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 752.0, "ID": 27139, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Fabiani, Linda", "ID": 1814, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Linda Fabiani", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Linda Fabiani (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 782.0, "ContributionID": 712705, "EditedText": "Having lived and worked in Argyll for many years—some of that time in Campbeltown—I am pleased to endorse George Lyon's concern about the state of the economy in Kintyre. Like many parts of rural Scotland, Kintyre depends on good-quality transport links and an investment in its infrastructure. Though much maligned, Caledonian MacBrayne is a crucial component of the transport infrastructure of Kintyre and of the whole west coast of Scotland. Members will be aware that CalMac was ordered to dispose of a ferry, which they needed, at a rock-bottom price to a private sector company. The Argyll and Antrim Steam Packet Co, a subsidiary of one of the Conservatives' favourite companies, Sea Containers Ltd, was hand-picked by Michael Forsyth, then Secretary of State for Scotland, to run one of the most promising recent developments in the Kintyre economy—the Campbeltown to Ballycastle ferry, which has already been referred to. It is becoming obvious that that was a blatant example of the private sector asset-stripping the public sector. Recently, we learned that the Argyll and Antrim Steam Packet Co had sold the ferry and was leasing it back. That financial engineering benefits no one, except the Argyll and Antrim Steam Packet Co. It certainly does not benefit the public purse or, indeed, the people of Kintyre. This week, the Executive has confirmed that Argyll and the Islands Enterprise, having invested heavily in providing the harbour and infrastructure for the ferry, may now have to repay up to £1.3 million of European regional development grant in the event of the withdrawal of the Ballycastle- Kintyre service. I believe that this episode warrants full public investigation by the National Audit Office or another appropriate agency. We need that investigation to determine whether Michael Forsyth properly exercised his powers as a principal shareholder in CalMac and as a guardian of public assets. An SNP motion to that effect will be lodged, and I invite members from all parties to support it. The Tories try to portray themselves as the friends of rural Scotland, but I see that Kintyre has only one wee pal in Jamie McGrigor sitting here today. Any party of Government that gets a contract between the public and private sectors so badly wrong should be grateful to be labelled as just incompetent and nothing more. In conclusion, my main concern is, of course, the economy of Kintyre. In that respect, my concern about the current Executive is its tardiness in realising that this issue was going to come up and hit it between the eyes. To partly atone for that oversight, minister, pressure should be put on the Scotland Office to underwrite any potential financial loss to Argyll and the Islands Enterprise and, therefore, to Kintyre.", "EditedTextHTML": "Having lived and worked in Argyll for many years—some of that time in Campbeltown—I am pleased to endorse George Lyon's concern about the state of the economy in Kintyre.

Like many parts of rural Scotland, Kintyre depends on good-quality transport links and an investment in its infrastructure. Though much maligned, Caledonian MacBrayne is a crucial component of the transport infrastructure of Kintyre and of the whole west coast of Scotland.

Members will be aware that CalMac was ordered to dispose of a ferry, which they needed, at a rock-bottom price to a private sector company. The Argyll and Antrim Steam Packet Co, a subsidiary of one of the Conservatives' favourite companies, Sea Containers Ltd, was hand-picked by Michael Forsyth, then Secretary of State for Scotland, to run one of the most promising recent developments in the Kintyre economy—the Campbeltown to Ballycastle ferry, which has already been referred to. It is becoming obvious that that was a blatant example of the private sector asset-stripping the public sector.

Recently, we learned that the Argyll and Antrim Steam Packet Co had sold the ferry and was leasing it back. That financial engineering benefits no one, except the Argyll and Antrim Steam Packet Co. It certainly does not benefit the public purse or, indeed, the people of Kintyre.

This week, the Executive has confirmed that Argyll and the Islands Enterprise, having invested heavily in providing the harbour and infrastructure for the ferry, may now have to repay up to £1.3 million of European regional development grant in the event of the withdrawal of the Ballycastle- Kintyre service.

I believe that this episode warrants full public investigation by the National Audit Office or another appropriate agency. We need that investigation to determine whether Michael Forsyth properly exercised his powers as a principal shareholder in CalMac and as a guardian of public assets. An SNP motion to that effect will be lodged, and I invite members from all parties to support it.

The Tories try to portray themselves as the friends of rural Scotland, but I see that Kintyre has only one wee pal in Jamie McGrigor sitting here today. Any party of Government that gets a contract between the public and private sectors so badly wrong should be grateful to be labelled as just incompetent and nothing more.

In conclusion, my main concern is, of course, the economy of Kintyre. In that respect, my concern about the current Executive is its tardiness in realising that this issue was going to come up and hit it between the eyes. To partly atone for that oversight, minister, pressure should be put on the Scotland Office to underwrite any potential financial loss to Argyll and the Islands Enterprise and, therefore, to Kintyre.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C712707", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Kintyre Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27139, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 752.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 752.0, "ID": 27139, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 787.0, "ContributionID": 712707, "EditedText": "Yes, you have seven minutes.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes, you have seven minutes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1889E118P162C712708", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Kintyre Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27139, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 752.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 752.0, "ID": 27139, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morrison, Mr Alasdair", "ID": 1889, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Western Isles" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morrison", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Morrison: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 789.0, "ContributionID": 712708, "EditedText": "I welcome this opportunity to discuss a number of important issues that affect the economy of Kintyre. I fully understand and share the concerns that have been expressed by George Lyon and by other members about the economic difficulties that are being experienced by Kintyre. All of us here are aware of the serious problems in the rural economy throughout Scotland. Representing a rural constituency myself, I am fully sensitive to the problems that face the agriculture and fishing industries, and the other industries that have been mentioned. I can assure George Lyon—and other members—that he has my sympathetic concern for the particular difficulties that affect his constituents. I would like to make it clear that the Scottish Executive, along with the relevant economic development agencies, Highlands and Islands Enterprise and Argyll and the Islands Enterprise, fully recognises the economic problems that are being experienced in Kintyre. We are committed to doing everything that we can to support the development and diversification of the local economy. I will refer to some of the points that members raised. I agree with Duncan Hamilton when he says that Kintyre is not a lost cause. I will certainly be happy to convey the specific points that he raised to my colleague Sarah Boyack. Maureen Macmillan raised the issue of viral haemorrhagic septicaemia and its potential classification. I have to confess that I am not aware of the various nuances of that debate but, again, I will be more than happy to convey Mrs Macmillan's concerns to the relevant minister, John Home Robertson. While acknowledging the difficulties that are being experienced in Kintyre, I think that we should recognise the measures that are already being taken to assist its economy. Mr Lyon has called for co-ordinated and effective action to ensure that the necessary investment is made to safeguard the long-term viability of Kintyre's communities. I assure Mr Lyon that the local enterprise company, Argyll and the Islands Enterprise, is already making concerted efforts to assist local businesses to strengthen Kintyre's economy. In recognition of the difficulties being experienced by the area, AIE made Kintyre its highest priority area in early 1998.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome this opportunity to discuss a number of important issues that affect the economy of Kintyre. I fully understand and share the concerns that have been expressed by George Lyon and by other members about the economic difficulties that are being experienced by Kintyre. All of us here are aware of the serious problems in the rural economy throughout Scotland. Representing a rural constituency myself, I am fully sensitive to the problems that face the agriculture and fishing industries, and the other industries that have been mentioned. I can assure George Lyon—and other members—that he has my sympathetic concern for the particular difficulties that affect his constituents.

I would like to make it clear that the Scottish Executive, along with the relevant economic development agencies, Highlands and Islands Enterprise and Argyll and the Islands Enterprise, fully recognises the economic problems that are being experienced in Kintyre. We are committed to doing everything that we can to support the development and diversification of the local economy.

I will refer to some of the points that members raised. I agree with Duncan Hamilton when he says that Kintyre is not a lost cause. I will certainly be happy to convey the specific points that he raised to my colleague Sarah Boyack.

Maureen Macmillan raised the issue of viral haemorrhagic septicaemia and its potential classification. I have to confess that I am not aware of the various nuances of that debate but, again, I will be more than happy to convey Mrs Macmillan's concerns to the relevant minister, John Home Robertson.

While acknowledging the difficulties that are being experienced in Kintyre, I think that we should recognise the measures that are already being taken to assist its economy. Mr Lyon has called for co-ordinated and effective action to ensure that the necessary investment is made to safeguard the long-term viability of Kintyre's

communities. I assure Mr Lyon that the local enterprise company, Argyll and the Islands Enterprise, is already making concerted efforts to assist local businesses to strengthen Kintyre's economy. In recognition of the difficulties being experienced by the area, AIE made Kintyre its highest priority area in early 1998.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C712713", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Kintyre Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27139, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 752.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 752.0, "ID": 27139, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 799.0, "ContributionID": 712713, "EditedText": "You have actually got a minute and a half, minister.", "EditedTextHTML": "You have actually got a minute and a half, minister.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1985E207P501C712715", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Kintyre Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27139, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 752.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 752.0, "ID": 27139, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hamilton, Mr Duncan", "ID": 1985, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Hamilton: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 803.0, "ContributionID": 712715, "EditedText": "As the minister has correctly identified, AIE has a crucial role to play in developing the Kintyre economy and has targeted the area as a No 1 objective. That said, what is the Executive's attitude to Linda Fabiani's revelation about the potential for AIE to lose more than £1 million?", "EditedTextHTML": "As the minister has correctly identified, AIE has a crucial role to play in developing the Kintyre economy and has targeted the area as a No 1 objective. That said, what is the Executive's attitude to Linda Fabiani's revelation about the potential for AIE to lose more than £1 million?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1889E118P162C712716", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Kintyre Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27139, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 752.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 752.0, "ID": 27139, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morrison, Mr Alasdair", "ID": 1889, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Western Isles" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morrison", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Morrison: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 805.0, "ContributionID": 712716, "EditedText": "Those issues are being debated legitimately in the area. I need to press on to deal with the important issue of the Ballycastle ferry. Mr Lyon has raised concerns about the future of the Ballycastle-Kintyre ferry service should Sea Containers withdraw from the route. I want to assure members that we recognise the importance of the service and its part in helping to boost Kintyre's economy. We are pleased that Sea Containers has been able to operate the service for the past three summers. However, the terms of the agreement with the sponsors of the project, AIE and Moyle District Council, required Sea Containers to operate the route for three years and the company is now reviewing its options for the future operation of the service. A decision is expected soon. I assure members that the Executive is maintaining a dialogue with Sea Containers to explore the possibilities. Officials have met representatives of Sea Containers and Mr Hamish Ross, managing director of Sea Containers Irish sea operations, will meet Sarah Boyack on 2 December. We are hopeful that a solution can be found. This year, there are some encouraging trends on carryings compared with last year. With the possibility of peace in Northern Ireland, it seems likely that carryings on the route may grow further. Just before I came into the chamber I was passed a note from Brian Wilson, Minister of State at the Scotland Office, who met Sea Containers today. He said: \"Sea Containers are not committed to withdrawing from the route so long as they feel that there are reasonable prospects for its successful operation.\" He continued:\"I believe that, particularly with a greatly improved political climate in Northern Ireland, it is eminently possible to increase traffic on the route by the 25 per cent required to secure its future.\" He continued:\"It is far too soon to write off the potential of this service which means so much to the economy of Kintyre.\" I see that my time is up, Presiding Officer.", "EditedTextHTML": "Those issues are being debated legitimately in the area. I need to press on to deal with the important issue of the Ballycastle ferry.

Mr Lyon has raised concerns about the future of the Ballycastle-Kintyre ferry service should Sea Containers withdraw from the route. I want to assure members that we recognise the importance of the service and its part in helping to boost Kintyre's economy. We are pleased that Sea Containers has been able to operate the service for the past three summers.

However, the terms of the agreement with the sponsors of the project, AIE and Moyle District Council, required Sea Containers to operate the route for three years and the company is now reviewing its options for the future operation of the service. A decision is expected soon.

I assure members that the Executive is maintaining a dialogue with Sea Containers to explore the possibilities. Officials have met representatives of Sea Containers and Mr Hamish Ross, managing director of Sea Containers Irish sea operations, will meet Sarah Boyack on 2 December. We are hopeful that a solution can be found. This year, there are some encouraging trends on carryings compared with last year. With the possibility of peace in Northern Ireland, it seems likely that carryings on the route may grow further.

Just before I came into the chamber I was passed a note from Brian Wilson, Minister of State at the Scotland Office, who met Sea Containers today. He said:

\"Sea Containers are not committed to withdrawing from the route so long as they feel that there are reasonable prospects for its successful operation.\"

He continued:

\"I believe that, particularly with a greatly improved political climate in Northern Ireland, it is eminently possible to increase traffic on the route by the 25 per cent required to secure its future.\"

He continued:

\"It is far too soon to write off the potential of this service which means so much to the economy of Kintyre.\"

I see that my time is up, Presiding Officer.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712718", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Kintyre Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27139, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 752.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 752.0, "ID": 27139, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 809.0, "ContributionID": 712718, "EditedText": "Meeting closed at 17:46.", "EditedTextHTML": "Meeting closed at 17:46.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1857E136P222C712392", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeill, Pauline", "ID": 1857, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Kelvin" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Pauline McNeill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Pauline McNeill (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 121.0, "ContributionID": 712392, "EditedText": "I welcome this debate on law and order, but I believe that the motion lacks focus. It is a shopping-list attack on the Executive and on a range of services and provision within the criminal justice system. The Prison Service, victim support and crime prevention services, to name but a few, merit specific attention in a specific debate. This morning, we have debated crime statistics. It is not true to say that the rates of all crime are rising. The motion is inaccurate. The rates of some types of crime are rising. Only a matter of weeks ago, John Orr of the country's biggest police force—Strathclyde—said that the crime rate had fallen by 7 per cent. Of course, he expressed dismay at the level of violent crime recorded. Strathclyde police take a proactive stance in combating that worrying trend. It is disappointing that the party of law and order's motion does not at least acknowledge the performance of the biggest police force in the country. It is not enough to say that the debate is simply about statistics and police numbers and to conclude that the number of police officers determines the level of crime prevention and detection. Having the right policies and a force with the right morale and a good relationship with the public are as important as police numbers. I am concerned about police resources, especially in Glasgow city centre, in my constituency, whose special circumstances need to be taken into account. Much has been said about the use of new technology and its impact on the detection and prevention of crime. In Glasgow Kelvin, Glasgow Development Agency supports 35 CCTV cameras operated by civilians in Stewart Street police station. I acknowledge that that may raise concerns about civil liberties, but those concerns are outweighed by the many advantages of the system. I have seen the system for myself. The operators are extremely skilled and can witness a scene as it develops. If a fight were to break out outside a pub or club in the city centre, the police would be alerted. CCTV tapes have also been used in evidence to convict offenders of serious crimes who, in many cases, have denied that they were even at the scene of the crime. Glasgow city centre has distinct policing problems. It is a bone of contention that the police are often left to pick up the problems caused by homelessness, drug misuse and the Glasgow hostels' policy of putting vulnerable people out on the street from 9 in the morning until 9 at night, which is a matter that I have already raised with the Minister for Communities. It is of paramount importance that we, as legislators, have a vision of how crime should be prevented and dealt with. To do that, we need real objectives. The Tories have long been supporters of the just-deserts movement and have supported the three-strikes-and-you're-out policy. In our view, that attitude is a bit simplistic and crude. We believe that a more sophisticated attitude to crime and the criminal justice system must be taken. There are too many women in prison. We support alternatives to prison and are willing to consider community service schemes. The evidence shows that, as Richard Simpson said, simply locking up young offenders does nothing to reduce overall crime statistics—we must be conscious of that in our crime policy.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome this debate on law and order, but I believe that the motion lacks focus. It is a shopping-list attack on the Executive and on a range of services and provision within the criminal justice system. The Prison Service, victim support and crime prevention services, to name but a few, merit specific attention in a specific debate.

This morning, we have debated crime statistics. It is not true to say that the rates of all crime are rising. The motion is inaccurate. The rates of some types of crime are rising. Only a matter of weeks ago, John Orr of the country's biggest police force—Strathclyde—said that the crime rate had fallen by 7 per cent. Of course, he expressed dismay at the level of violent crime recorded. Strathclyde police take a proactive stance in combating that worrying trend. It is disappointing that the party of law and order's motion does not at least acknowledge the performance of the biggest police force in the country.

It is not enough to say that the debate is simply about statistics and police numbers and to conclude that the number of police officers determines the level of crime prevention and detection. Having the right policies and a force with the right morale and a good relationship with the public are as important as police numbers.

I am concerned about police resources, especially in Glasgow city centre, in my constituency, whose special circumstances need to be taken into account. Much has been said about the use of new technology and its impact on the detection and prevention of crime. In Glasgow

Kelvin, Glasgow Development Agency supports 35 CCTV cameras operated by civilians in Stewart Street police station. I acknowledge that that may raise concerns about civil liberties, but those concerns are outweighed by the many advantages of the system. I have seen the system for myself. The operators are extremely skilled and can witness a scene as it develops. If a fight were to break out outside a pub or club in the city centre, the police would be alerted. CCTV tapes have also been used in evidence to convict offenders of serious crimes who, in many cases, have denied that they were even at the scene of the crime.

Glasgow city centre has distinct policing problems. It is a bone of contention that the police are often left to pick up the problems caused by homelessness, drug misuse and the Glasgow hostels' policy of putting vulnerable people out on the street from 9 in the morning until 9 at night, which is a matter that I have already raised with the Minister for Communities.

It is of paramount importance that we, as legislators, have a vision of how crime should be prevented and dealt with. To do that, we need real objectives. The Tories have long been supporters of the just-deserts movement and have supported the three-strikes-and-you're-out policy. In our view, that attitude is a bit simplistic and crude. We believe that a more sophisticated attitude to crime and the criminal justice system must be taken.

There are too many women in prison. We support alternatives to prison and are willing to consider community service schemes. The evidence shows that, as Richard Simpson said, simply locking up young offenders does nothing to reduce overall crime statistics—we must be conscious of that in our crime policy.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:18:48.0221515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1857E136P222C712396", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeill, Pauline", "ID": 1857, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Kelvin" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Pauline McNeill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Pauline McNeill: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 129.0, "ContributionID": 712396, "EditedText": "I am sorry, but I do not have enough time. As part of our vision of tackling crime, we must give due attention to its victims. In that regard, I have some support for what Michael Matheson said. I welcome the Lord Advocate's recent statement that Crown prosecution must be transparent and accountable. This Parliament has to ensure that that is the case, not just for the Godley family, but for the Dekkar family and others, who feel that so far they have failed to get an explanation. Victims should have rights, and the Government is taking action to ensure that victim support is part of the criminal justice system. We will tackle serious crime and are prepared to take radical measures in our programme to stay tough on crime. We are doing so through setting up the drugs enforcement agency; we are even prepared to investigate the Irish approach to determine whether it is something that we can incorporate into Scots law. I hope that the next time Mr Gallie sees Mr Orr, he will have some explanations, given Strathclyde police's good performance and the reduction in the level of crime. I am sure that Mr Orr will have something to say about Mr Gallie's motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry, but I do not have enough time.

As part of our vision of tackling crime, we must give due attention to its victims. In that regard, I have some support for what Michael Matheson said. I welcome the Lord Advocate's recent statement that Crown prosecution must be transparent and accountable. This Parliament has to ensure that that is the case, not just for the Godley family, but for the Dekkar family and others, who feel that so far they have failed to get an explanation. Victims should have rights, and the Government is taking action to ensure that victim support is part of the criminal justice system.

We will tackle serious crime and are prepared to take radical measures in our programme to stay tough on crime. We are doing so through setting up the drugs enforcement agency; we are even prepared to investigate the Irish approach to determine whether it is something that we can incorporate into Scots law.

I hope that the next time Mr Gallie sees Mr Orr, he will have some explanations, given Strathclyde police's good performance and the reduction in the level of crime. I am sure that Mr Orr will have something to say about Mr Gallie's motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:18:48.0221515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1857E136P222C712398", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeill, Pauline", "ID": 1857, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Kelvin" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Pauline McNeill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Pauline McNeill: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 134.0, "ContributionID": 712398, "EditedText": "Will Mr Gibson give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr Gibson give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:18:48.0221515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2110E214P424C712401", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gibson, Kenneth", "ID": 2110, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenneth Gibson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Gibson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 140.0, "ContributionID": 712401, "EditedText": "If we take that argument to its logical conclusion, Mr Wallace would say that crime would disappear if we got rid of the police force. Laughter. That would be ludicrous. The police—the professionals—are saying that they need more officers to tackle crime. The public are saying that the police need more officers to tackle crime. Mr Wallace appears to be the only person saying the reverse—for him, this is all about saving money. Does anyone seriously doubt that a reduction of 200 in Strathclyde police's operational force has impacted on crime figures? Of course it did. A further reduction of 150 officers this financial year and of 100 officers in the next financial year will further stretch the force, with an undoubted impact on its ability to meet existing commitments, let alone new ones.", "EditedTextHTML": "If we take that argument to its logical conclusion, Mr Wallace would say that crime would disappear if we got rid of the police force. [Laughter.] That would be ludicrous.

The police—the professionals—are saying that they need more officers to tackle crime. The public are saying that the police need more officers to tackle crime. Mr Wallace appears to be the only person saying the reverse—for him, this is all about saving money.

Does anyone seriously doubt that a reduction of 200 in Strathclyde police's operational force has impacted on crime figures? Of course it did. A further reduction of 150 officers this financial year and of 100 officers in the next financial year will further stretch the force, with an undoubted impact on its ability to meet existing commitments, let alone new ones.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:18:48.0377751+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2110E214P424C712407", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gibson, Kenneth", "ID": 2110, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenneth Gibson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Gibson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 152.0, "ContributionID": 712407, "EditedText": "Capital budgets are even more under the cosh—only £6.7 million has been allocated in this financial year. When the deputy chief constable addressed Glasgow City Council's policy and resources committee in March, he described that sum as totally inadequate, given a priority need for £16.5 million. So skint are Strathclyde police that, this year, they have been unable to purchase even one new vehicle, which has led to reduced vehicle reliability and greater expenditure on repair and maintenance. Hardly best value, is it? However, it is the best that Strathclyde police can do with the resources available.", "EditedTextHTML": "Capital budgets are even more under the cosh—only £6.7 million has been allocated in this financial year. When the deputy chief constable addressed Glasgow City Council's policy and resources committee in March, he described that sum as totally inadequate, given a priority need for £16.5 million. So skint are Strathclyde police that, this year, they have been unable to purchase even one new vehicle, which has led to reduced vehicle reliability and greater expenditure on repair and maintenance. Hardly best value, is it? However, it is the best that Strathclyde police can do with the resources available.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:18:48.0377751+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2110E214P424C712409", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gibson, Kenneth", "ID": 2110, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenneth Gibson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Gibson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 156.0, "ContributionID": 712409, "EditedText": "I am winding up.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am winding up.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:20:08.7854474+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2110E214P424C712411", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gibson, Kenneth", "ID": 2110, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenneth Gibson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Gibson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 160.0, "ContributionID": 712411, "EditedText": "Last year, despite severe financial constraint and rising crime, the professionalism and hard work of Strathclyde police ensured that they had the most successful crime detection results ever. Imagine what they could achieve if properly resourced by the Executive: more police on the beat; more work with schools, businesses, the wider community and victims of crime; more crackdowns on dealers; more prevention of crime through visible deterrence; and more pensioners sleeping safe in their beds.", "EditedTextHTML": "Last year, despite severe financial constraint and rising crime, the professionalism and hard work of Strathclyde police ensured that they had the most successful crime detection results ever. Imagine what they could achieve if properly resourced by the Executive: more police on the beat; more work with schools, businesses, the wider community and victims of crime; more crackdowns on dealers; more prevention of crime through visible deterrence; and more pensioners sleeping safe in their beds.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:20:08.7854474+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C712363", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 60.0, "ContributionID": 712363, "EditedText": "On that point—", "EditedTextHTML": "On that point—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C712364", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 62.0, "ContributionID": 712364, "EditedText": "I have been fairly generous in giving way.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have been fairly generous in giving way.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C712365", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Brian Monteith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 64.0, "ContributionID": 712365, "EditedText": "No, he has not.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, he has not.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C712366", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 66.0, "ContributionID": 712366, "EditedText": "I have spent more of my speech giving way than on my own comments. Penninghame is geographically remote from the central belt, provides little flexibility and accommodates most prisoners in dormitories. The decision to close the prison is no reflection on the excellent work of the staff, but the opportunities provided for prisoners in Penninghame can be provided in Castle Huntly or Noranside. The number of places at those prisons is sufficient to cater for all prisoners who qualify to be held in open conditions. It has been recognised for some time that Dungavel is unsuitable for its purpose: it has inadequate dormitory accommodation and minimal scope for redevelopment. Recent investment in perimeter security systems to approved category C standards, allied with fully upgraded prisoner accommodation of single cells and two-person dormitories, makes Friarton a more suitable candidate to take over Dungavel's role as a top- end category C prison for long-term prisoners.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have spent more of my speech giving way than on my own comments.

Penninghame is geographically remote from the central belt, provides little flexibility and accommodates most prisoners in dormitories. The decision to close the prison is no reflection on the excellent work of the staff, but the opportunities provided for prisoners in Penninghame can be provided in Castle Huntly or Noranside. The number of places at those prisons is sufficient to cater for all prisoners who qualify to be held in open conditions.

It has been recognised for some time that Dungavel is unsuitable for its purpose: it has inadequate dormitory accommodation and minimal scope for redevelopment. Recent investment in perimeter security systems to approved category C standards, allied with fully upgraded prisoner accommodation of single cells and two-person dormitories, makes Friarton a more suitable candidate to take over Dungavel's role as a top- end category C prison for long-term prisoners.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C712336", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ms Patricia Ferguson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 4.0, "ContributionID": 712336, "EditedText": "The first item of business this morning is a non-Executive debate on motion S1M-316, in the name of Phil Gallie, on law and order, and amendments to that motion. I call Phil Gallie to speak to and move the motion. You have 20 minutes, Mr Gallie.", "EditedTextHTML": "The first item of business this morning is a non-Executive debate on motion S1M-316, in the name of Phil Gallie, on law and order, and amendments to that motion. I call Phil Gallie to speak to and move the motion. You have 20 minutes, Mr Gallie.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712335", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Thursday 25 November 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 27109, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 27109, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 2.0, "ContributionID": 712335, "EditedText": "THE DEPUTY PRESIDING OFFICER opened the meeting at 09:31", "EditedTextHTML": "[THE DEPUTY PRESIDING OFFICER opened the meeting at 09:31]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2140E187P335C712340", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Rumbles, Mike", "ID": 2140, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Rumbles", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Rumbles: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 13.0, "ContributionID": 712340, "EditedText": "There are further facts that Mr Gallie may be interested in listening to. I would like to hear his comments on them. When the Conservatives came to power in 1979, 346,000 crimes were recorded annually. When they left office in 1997, there were 420,000. That is an increase of 74,000, which equates to an increase of eight more crimes per hour in 1997 than there were in 1979. How does that square with what he has just been saying?", "EditedTextHTML": "There are further facts that Mr Gallie may be interested in listening to. I would like to hear his comments on them. When the Conservatives came to power in 1979, 346,000 crimes were recorded annually. When they left office in 1997, there were 420,000. That is an increase of 74,000, which equates to an increase of eight more crimes per hour in 1997 than there were in 1979. How does that square with what he has just been saying?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C712341", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 15.0, "ContributionID": 712341, "EditedText": "The major problem was the fact that there was an international expansion in drug- related crime. Members may laugh, but that fact is recognised. I foresaw Mr Rumbles's comments and I mentioned drugs right at the beginning of my speech. I note that he did not challenge my figures and simply went off on another line in an attempt to justify his comments. Prior to the 1999 election, people who are now members of the Executive commented on the prison situation. They said: \"We will rid Scotland of the problems that weaken our Society. That means being tough on crime and criminals who blight our communities.\" \"We will crack down on violent crime.\"What do they do? They determine to reduce the number of prison places. They determine that dropping the number of prisoners will be a longer- term objective, although their own forecast shows that the prison population is liable to rise from 6,100 today to something like 6,400 over the next two years. How does that add up? HM chief inspector of prisons for Scotland's report for 1998-99 shows substantial overcrowding in the major prisons. How does that equate with taking prison places out of the system? It shows improvements in reducing slopping out and in it Jim Wallace claims that by 2004 that practice will be ended. That contrasts with the evidence Tony Cameron, the chief executive of the Prison Service, gave the Justice and Home Affairs Committee on Tuesday. He acknowledged that that target would not now be achieved, thanks to Jack McConnell and Jim Wallace's raid on £13 million of prison funding.", "EditedTextHTML": "The major problem was the fact that there was an international expansion in drug- related crime. Members may laugh, but that fact is recognised. I foresaw Mr Rumbles's comments and I mentioned drugs right at the beginning of my speech. I note that he did not challenge my figures and simply went off on another line in an attempt to justify his comments.

Prior to the 1999 election, people who are now members of the Executive commented on the prison situation. They said:

\"We will rid Scotland of the problems that weaken our Society. That means being tough on crime and criminals who blight our communities.\"

\"We will crack down on violent crime.\"

What do they do? They determine to reduce the number of prison places. They determine that dropping the number of prisoners will be a longer- term objective, although their own forecast shows that the prison population is liable to rise from 6,100 today to something like 6,400 over the next two years.

How does that add up? HM chief inspector of prisons for Scotland's report for 1998-99 shows substantial overcrowding in the major prisons. How does that equate with taking prison places out of the system? It shows improvements in reducing slopping out and in it Jim Wallace claims that by 2004 that practice will be ended. That contrasts with the evidence Tony Cameron, the chief executive of the Prison Service, gave the Justice and Home Affairs Committee on Tuesday. He acknowledged that that target would not now be achieved, thanks to Jack McConnell and Jim Wallace's raid on £13 million of prison funding.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C712343", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 19.0, "ContributionID": 712343, "EditedText": "I accept that as an aim, but a time of rising prison populations hardly seems the time to cut prison places. Bearing in mind the situation in prisons, the report, the drug taking and the overcrowding, how will the reduction by 400 in the number of prison staff aid the minister in seeking to improve prisons? That raid has, I suggest, been made necessary by the Government's miscalculation of the cost of setting up the drugs enforcement agency—which has the support of every party here. An additional 200 police to serve in the drugs enforcement agency were promised. That is being delivered, but there was talk of an extra 100 police to work in communities. That must be folklore now, given the reductions in the police force—", "EditedTextHTML": "I accept that as an aim, but a time of rising prison populations hardly seems the time to cut prison places. Bearing in mind the situation in prisons, the report, the drug taking and the overcrowding, how will the reduction by 400 in the number of prison staff aid the minister in seeking to improve prisons? That raid has, I suggest, been made necessary by the Government's miscalculation of the cost of setting up the drugs enforcement agency—which has the support of every party here. An additional 200 police to serve in the drugs enforcement agency were promised. That is being delivered, but there was talk of an extra 100 police to work in communities. That must be folklore now, given the reductions in the police force—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C712345", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 23.0, "ContributionID": 712345, "EditedText": "I will give the Deputy Minister for Justice a chance to come in, in a minute. He may recall that when we debated the drugs enforcement agency he gave a figure of something like £4 million for funding the agency. I said at the time that on my calculation it would be more like £12 million, which he said was typical Tory back-of-the-fag-packet, made-up figures. Jack McConnell acknowledged in his financial statement that the cost of the drugs enforcement agency will be above £12 million. On that basis, I was right and the minister was wrong.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will give the Deputy Minister for Justice a chance to come in, in a minute. He may recall that when we debated the drugs enforcement agency he gave a figure of something like £4 million for funding the agency. I said at the time that on my calculation it would be more like £12 million, which he said was typical Tory back-of-the-fag-packet, made-up figures. Jack McConnell acknowledged in his financial statement that the cost of the drugs enforcement agency will be above £12 million. On that basis, I was right and the minister was wrong.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C712346", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Angus MacKay: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 25.0, "ContributionID": 712346, "EditedText": "I am unclear whether Mr Gallie is welcoming the commitment, through the financial statement, of £5 million per year for the drugs enforcement agency and the additional 200 officers, or not. To clarify a point Mr Gallie made: we have always said 200 additional officers, probably 100 at the centre and 100 in the forces, but that that would be an operational decision. Will Mr Gallie confirm, however, that once the 200 additional officers are operational, police force levels in Scotland will be within less than 1 per cent of the highest level ever in Scotland?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am unclear whether Mr Gallie is welcoming the commitment, through the financial statement, of £5 million per year for the drugs enforcement agency and the additional 200 officers, or not. To clarify a point Mr Gallie made: we have always said 200 additional officers, probably 100 at the centre and 100 in the forces,

but that that would be an operational decision. Will Mr Gallie confirm, however, that once the 200 additional officers are operational, police force levels in Scotland will be within less than 1 per cent of the highest level ever in Scotland?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C712353", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie (Lothians) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 40.0, "ContributionID": 712353, "EditedText": "Is that the same recruitment policy that Jack Straw had when he said that 5,000 more police officers were being recruited down south, although numbers were declining there as well?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is that the same recruitment policy that Jack Straw had when he said that 5,000 more police officers were being recruited down south, although numbers were declining there as well?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C712354", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 42.0, "ContributionID": 712354, "EditedText": "I have made a perfectly simple point: the most recently available information—and it is days old—indicates that nearly all Scotland's police forces are currently recruiting. That is a very welcome sign, because it indicates that they believe that the resources are available for them to recruit.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have made a perfectly simple point: the most recently available information—and it is days old—indicates that nearly all Scotland's police forces are currently recruiting. That is a very welcome sign, because it indicates that they believe that the resources are available for them to

recruit.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C712368", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 70.0, "ContributionID": 712368, "EditedText": "The first thing to make clear to Ms Grahame is that I did not choose it. It is important that she recognises and understands that those are operational matters for the Scottish Prison Service. I do not in any way detract from the work that has been done by the prison staff at Dungavel; I wish to pay tribute to that work. As I have already indicated, the prison has inadequate dormitory accommodation and minimal scope for redevelopment, while Friarton is suitable to take over the role as a top-end, category C prison for long-term prisoners.", "EditedTextHTML": "The first thing to make clear to Ms Grahame is that I did not choose it. It is important that she recognises and understands that those are operational matters for the Scottish Prison Service. I do not in any way detract from the work that has been done by the prison staff at Dungavel; I wish to pay tribute to that work.

As I have already indicated, the prison has inadequate dormitory accommodation and minimal scope for redevelopment, while Friarton is suitable to take over the role as a top-end, category C prison for long-term prisoners.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C712370", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 74.0, "ContributionID": 712370, "EditedText": "I have been quite generous.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have been quite generous.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C712386", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 108.0, "ContributionID": 712386, "EditedText": "Will you wind up please?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will you wind up please?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C712404", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 146.0, "ContributionID": 712404, "EditedText": "I am not making a deal with you, Mr Gibson—we will see how it works out.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am not making a deal with you, Mr Gibson—we will see how it works out.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C712419", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Monteith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 179.0, "ContributionID": 712419, "EditedText": "Does Karen Whitefield endorse Mr Blair's association with Bernie Ecclestone, who donated £1 million to the Labour party? She has— rightly—shown concern in the chamber for the health of the people of Airdrie.", "EditedTextHTML": "Does Karen Whitefield endorse Mr Blair's association with Bernie Ecclestone, who donated £1 million to the Labour party? She has— rightly—shown concern in the chamber for the health of the people of Airdrie.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1805E13P109C712420", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Whitefield, Karen", "ID": 1805, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Airdrie and Shotts" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Karen Whitefield", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Karen Whitefield: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 181.0, "ContributionID": 712420, "EditedText": "I do not think that that is relevant. My priority is the people of Airdrie and Shotts. I stand up for their health and will continue to do so. I thank Mr Monteith for reminding those of my constituents who are here today of that. I welcome the inclusion of appropriate targets in the recently published social justice document. Measures to reduce school truancy and exclusion are positive ways of tackling crime. Crime prevention is always preferable to crime detection. I have concerns about the impact that the announced closures of prisons will have on other Scottish prisons—including Shotts prison in my constituency. I have written to Jim Wallace about that and he is aware of my concerns. Before concluding, I would like to comment on the use of CCTV. As many members will be aware, three men and a boy of 14 were recently convicted of a particularly brutal assault on a father and son in Northburn in Airdrie. Video footage of that assault not only shocked the nation, but provided vital evidence that ensured the conviction of those thugs. If ever there was an overwhelming argument for the use of CCTV, that must be it. Tackling crime is at the heart of the Executive's policy agenda, and I ask members to support Jim Wallace's amendment.", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not think that that is relevant. My priority is the people of Airdrie and Shotts. I stand up for their health and will continue to do so. I thank Mr Monteith for reminding those of my constituents who are here today of that.

I welcome the inclusion of appropriate targets in the recently published social justice document. Measures to reduce school truancy and exclusion are positive ways of tackling crime. Crime prevention is always preferable to crime detection.

I have concerns about the impact that the announced closures of prisons will have on other Scottish prisons—including Shotts prison in my constituency. I have written to Jim Wallace about that and he is aware of my concerns.

Before concluding, I would like to comment on the use of CCTV. As many members will be

aware, three men and a boy of 14 were recently convicted of a particularly brutal assault on a father and son in Northburn in Airdrie. Video footage of that assault not only shocked the nation, but provided vital evidence that ensured the conviction of those thugs. If ever there was an overwhelming argument for the use of CCTV, that must be it.

Tackling crime is at the heart of the Executive's policy agenda, and I ask members to support Jim Wallace's amendment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2056E57P84C712421", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James", "ID": 2056, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "James Douglas-Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Lord James Douglas-Hamilton (Lothians) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 184.0, "ContributionID": 712421, "EditedText": "I am pleased that Karen Whitefield welcomes the CCTV pilot scheme in Airdrie, as I helped to start it. I believe that it will reduce crime levels, and I am glad that we can agree at least on that. There are three issues of law and order that I would like to raise. The first relates to the courts. I am an advocate—at present, a non-practising advocate, like the Minister for Justice. The suspension not only of 126 temporary sheriffs, but of all temporary judges in the Court of Session is a significant development. It would be wholly unacceptable if persons who are charged with crimes of violence are not brought to justice simply because of an insufficiency of judges. I have submitted some 19 written questions for the Administration to answer. However, for some unknown reason, the Executive finds it hard to answer written parliamentary questions within one week, as is the normal practice in the House of Commons. Even without detailed information, we know certain facts. In Linlithgow sheriff court, there are some 33 cases that involve temporary sheriffs, in which sentences have been deferred; that is, cases in which sentences have yet to be imposed. We also know that there are no fewer than 36 continued civil cases that are currently before temporary sheriffs, and 41 part-heard summary trials. My understanding is that temporary sheriffs must report back to the courts, then hand over their cases to permanent sheriffs. In many, if not all, of those cases there may have to be another trial. However, the situation is far more serious than that. Between 24 November 1999 and 31 December 2000, temporary sheriffs have been scheduled to hear 233 cases. If one also takes into account the fact that all temporary judges in the Court of Session are no longer sitting, one recognises a problem that will develop over the next few months, particularly in those courts that are most dependent on temporary sheriffs and judges. There is a test case before the Court of Session today. The editorial in The Scotsman says: \"Were today's case to succeed, courts could be flooded with two decades' worth of challenges. Prisoners could be released. Divorcees could find they are still married.\" There will undoubtedly be substantial problems, not only with test cases. Glasgow sheriff court alone has 76 cases that are scheduled to appear before temporary sheriffs. I ask the Lord Advocate, and the Minister for Justice and his junior minister, to consider very carefully the issue of resources. It seems that the contingency arrangements that have been made are not equal to the threat that will face us of huge pressure on the court system, particularly in certain areas.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am pleased that Karen Whitefield welcomes the CCTV pilot scheme in Airdrie, as I helped to start it. I believe that it will reduce crime levels, and I am glad that we can agree at least on that.

There are three issues of law and order that I would like to raise. The first relates to the courts. I am an advocate—at present, a non-practising advocate, like the Minister for Justice. The suspension not only of 126 temporary sheriffs, but of all temporary judges in the Court of Session is a significant development. It would be wholly unacceptable if persons who are charged with crimes of violence are not brought to justice simply because of an insufficiency of judges. I have submitted some 19 written questions for the Administration to answer. However, for some unknown reason, the Executive finds it hard to answer written parliamentary questions within one week, as is the normal practice in the House of Commons.

Even without detailed information, we know certain facts. In Linlithgow sheriff court, there are some 33 cases that involve temporary sheriffs, in which sentences have been deferred; that is, cases in which sentences have yet to be imposed. We also know that there are no fewer than 36 continued civil cases that are currently before temporary sheriffs, and 41 part-heard summary trials. My understanding is that temporary sheriffs must report back to the courts, then hand over their cases to permanent sheriffs. In many, if not all, of those cases there may have to be another trial.

However, the situation is far more serious than that. Between 24 November 1999 and 31 December 2000, temporary sheriffs have been scheduled to hear 233 cases. If one also takes into account the fact that all temporary judges in the Court of Session are no longer sitting, one recognises a problem that will develop over the next few months, particularly in those courts that are most dependent on temporary sheriffs and judges. There is a test case before the Court of

Session today. The editorial in The Scotsman says:

\"Were today's case to succeed, courts could be flooded with two decades' worth of challenges. Prisoners could be released. Divorcees could find they are still married.\"

There will undoubtedly be substantial problems, not only with test cases. Glasgow sheriff court alone has 76 cases that are scheduled to appear before temporary sheriffs. I ask the Lord Advocate, and the Minister for Justice and his junior minister, to consider very carefully the issue of resources. It seems that the contingency arrangements that have been made are not equal to the threat that will face us of huge pressure on the court system, particularly in certain areas.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1908E166P251C712429", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Kerr, Andy", "ID": 1908, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Kilbride" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andy Kerr", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Kerr: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 202.0, "ContributionID": 712429, "EditedText": "I am pleased that the Deputy Minister for Justice has been in Ireland looking at the seizure of assets, a way to really hit the drug dealers where it hurts. A drug dealer is the centre of a web of criminals—catch the dealer and crime figures are dramatically reduced. That is why there are 200 extra police officers in the drugs enforcement agency. As a modern society we should be looking at alternatives to prison; people do not reform there, as we would want. There are other ways, which the Executive has already outlined. On youth crime, we are looking at ways of taking people out of a drugs dependency culture into leisure and sports pursuits; that is proven to reduce dependency on drugs. Richard Lochhead's narrow perspective and political point scoring do not help. Dungavel prison is in my constituency and I have huge respect for the prison officers there and for the organisation of the prison. Efficient use of taxpayers' money is one of the main remits of the Prison Service; it came up with the review, not the Executive. It put forward six criteria for assessing individual prisons and took decisions on that basis. Prison officers do a very difficult job and do it very well. Moving on to more rational aspects of this debate, when I go round schools in my constituency people talk about the level of youth crime and drugs in communities, and I am very pleased that the Executive is being more creative on that. The drugs enforcement agency will make a difference as will the alternative schemes to get young people out of drugs culture into mainstream society. I spent a day on the beat with the local police in East Kilbride. Their role is much valued—they are enforcers, quasi-lawyers, social workers and, on occasion, substitute parents. I know the difficult and valuable job they do. Police officers are increasingly innovative in their approach to young people, with a proactive role in schools and involvement in local drugs forums. Joined-up thinking is happening under the Executive's programme on crime and I welcome it. It is about ensuring that all aspects of the community are involved; it is about schools, criminal intelligence, working across borders, internationally. Drugs are, as everyone recognises, a scourge. Seizures of drugs off the street are up, but this is an international problem and I am pleased to see the Executive working in an international way. CCTV makes a big improvement in people's sense of security. I am glad to see further resources going into that. The Executive's overall strategy means we can feel safer, that the approach being taken is sounder. It is a balance of measures, not designed to throw everybody in the slammer, but a mixed delivery of systems, catching people at their entry into crime and diverting them. That is how we begin to resolve the problems of community safety.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am pleased that the Deputy Minister for Justice has been in Ireland looking at the seizure of assets, a way to really hit the drug dealers where it hurts. A drug dealer is the centre of a web of criminals—catch the dealer and crime figures are dramatically reduced. That is why there are 200 extra police officers in the drugs enforcement agency. As a modern society we should be looking at alternatives to prison; people do not reform there, as we would want. There are other ways, which the Executive has already outlined. On youth crime, we are looking at ways of taking people out of a drugs dependency culture into leisure and sports pursuits; that is proven to reduce dependency on drugs. Richard Lochhead's narrow perspective and political point scoring do not help.

Dungavel prison is in my constituency and I have huge respect for the prison officers there and for the organisation of the prison. Efficient use of taxpayers' money is one of the main remits of the Prison Service; it came up with the review, not the Executive. It put forward six criteria for assessing individual prisons and took decisions on that basis. Prison officers do a very difficult job and do it very well.

Moving on to more rational aspects of this debate, when I go round schools in my constituency people talk about the level of youth crime and drugs in communities, and I am very pleased that the Executive is being more creative on that. The drugs enforcement agency will make a difference as will the alternative schemes to get young people out of drugs culture into mainstream society.

I spent a day on the beat with the local police in East Kilbride. Their role is much valued—they are enforcers, quasi-lawyers, social workers and, on occasion, substitute parents. I know the difficult and valuable job they do. Police officers are increasingly innovative in their approach to young people, with a proactive role in schools and involvement in local drugs forums. Joined-up thinking is happening under the Executive's programme on crime and I welcome it. It is about ensuring that all aspects of the community are involved; it is about schools, criminal intelligence, working across borders, internationally. Drugs are, as everyone recognises, a scourge. Seizures of drugs off the street are up, but this is an international problem and I am pleased to see the Executive working in an international way.

CCTV makes a big improvement in people's sense of security. I am glad to see further resources going into that. The Executive's overall strategy means we can feel safer, that the approach being taken is sounder. It is a balance of measures, not designed to throw everybody in the slammer, but a mixed delivery of systems, catching people at their entry into crime and diverting them. That is how we begin to resolve the problems of community safety.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2234E7P20C712430", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Aitken, Bill", "ID": 2234, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bill Aitken", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bill Aitken (Glasgow) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 205.0, "ContributionID": 712430, "EditedText": "I will address this debate under three headings. I ask the minister to accept that I am attempting to be helpful and constructive, but I must make some criticism over the way in which the Executive has implemented the European convention on human rights. First, it is clear that it was never thought through. There was no anticipation of what was likely to arise, which has resulted in the shambles regarding temporary sheriffs and judges. Clearly, the situation should have been anticipated, because it was the talk of the legal steamie for months.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will address this debate under three headings. I ask the minister to accept that I am attempting to be helpful and constructive, but I must make some criticism over the way in which the Executive has implemented the European convention on human rights. First, it is clear that it was never thought through. There was no anticipation of what was likely to arise, which has resulted in the shambles regarding temporary sheriffs and judges. Clearly, the situation should have been anticipated, because it was the talk of the legal steamie for months.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C712433", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Keith Raffan (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 212.0, "ContributionID": 712433, "EditedText": "I will concentrate almost entirely on drugs issues. It is 13 years ago since I took a private member's bill through the House of Commons, with the support of all parties: the Scottish nationalists, Plaid Cymru, Tories, Labour, the Liberal Democrats and the unionists. That was the Controlled Drugs (Penalties) Act 1985, which increased the maximum sentence for trafficking in class A drugs from 14 years to life. That was a worthy measure. We, in the Executive, yield to nobody in terms of wanting to fight the drug menace. I strongly support the announcement of the drugs enforcement agency. I believe that it will give the more focused and strategic approach that the Deputy First Minister claimed that it would today. However, I am concerned—and I hope that the Deputy Minister for Justice will respond to this point in his winding-up speech—that at the same time as the £10.5 million for the DEA was announced, a comprehensive audit of drug treatment services and rehabilitation was announced. We have not had the details of that audit yet, but I hope that Angus MacKay, as the chairman of the ministerial group on drug misuse, will give us more information on it. There is an urgent need for a debate in this chamber on the issue of drug misuse, the DEA and what it will do. It is easy for drug misuse to take over a debate on law and order—that is an unfortunate phrase— which is the subject of the debate today. There is no doubt that the UK Government approach has emphasised cutting supply. Three quarters of the £1.4 billion that it spends is on enforcement and only a quarter is spent on prevention, treatment and rehabilitation. That is an imbalance and there is an urgent need for us to spend more on prevention, treatment and rehabilitation. Lyndsay McIntosh was right when she said—it was one point of substance in her speech—that £1 spent on treatment and rehabilitation saves £3 in terms of clearing up crime. I welcome the Deputy First Minister's announcement today of the extra sports centres and outdoor centres for young people. That is crucial. It coincides with what was said to the Social Inclusion, Housing and Voluntary Sector Committee on Monday by Sally Haw of the Health Education Board for Scotland, when she expressed her concern about the number of outdoor centres and outward bound centres that had closed in the past 20 years. Whether they are called diversion centres or something else, they are a crucial way to help and support young people. In the social inclusion debate yesterday, I mentioned the issue of exclusion, which was touched on by my colleague Donald Gorrie today. That is absolutely central. We must deal with truancy. I quoted the statistics, which Dr Richard Simpson kindly gave me, on the very successful pupil support unit in Alloa Academy, where exclusion has been cut by half. That already exceeds the targets announced by the Executive earlier this week. That successful example must be spread to other parts of Scotland. Donald Gorrie and Richard Lochhead also mentioned youth centres. I agree that we need the Executive to produce another of its glossy brochures, but this time with descriptions of best practice in terms of youth centres. A number have been mentioned today; others include the Corner in Dundee, the Youth Advice Project in Inverurie and Off the Record in Stirling. We need more of these but, as Donald Gorrie rightly said, it is not just about bricks and mortar; it is about the youth workers who do such excellent work. I remember seeing them doing excellent work in a rather scruffy room, beside the swimming pool, in Turriff. It was packed with the kids from the local school at lunchtime. Those kind of drop-in centres for young people are key, because, on exclusion, there is so much evidence that truancy leads to them becoming young offenders and then going on to become hardened criminals. The drug action teams have a mixed record. The minister must spread the good practice in Glasgow to the other 22 drug action teams, which are less effective. Finally, I will make this positive point on prisons. I am concerned about the lack of counselling and therapy for addicts in our prisons. There is no question but that those who have the guts to go cold turkey in the drug-free zones do not get enough support. We need far more support for organisations such as Simpson House, which counsel prisoners in prison and provide them with through-care after they have left. That is not public spending—it is public investment. It will reduce the cost of crime and the costs of our prisons. There are other points that I would like to make, but I will end there. In the near future, let us have a full-scale debate in this chamber on drug misuse. There are so many aspects of this serious problem: education, health—the hepatitis C epidemic is a time bomb that threatens our health boards—and, of course, crime.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will concentrate almost entirely on drugs issues. It is 13 years ago since I took a private member's bill through the House of Commons, with the support of all parties: the Scottish nationalists, Plaid Cymru, Tories, Labour, the Liberal Democrats and the unionists. That was the Controlled Drugs (Penalties) Act 1985, which increased the maximum sentence for trafficking in class A drugs from 14 years to life. That was a worthy measure. We, in the Executive, yield to nobody in terms of wanting to fight the drug menace.

I strongly support the announcement of the drugs enforcement agency. I believe that it will give the more focused and strategic approach that the Deputy First Minister claimed that it would today. However, I am concerned—and I hope that the Deputy Minister for Justice will respond to this point in his winding-up speech—that at the same time as the £10.5 million for the DEA was announced, a comprehensive audit of drug treatment services and rehabilitation was announced. We have not had the details of that audit yet, but I hope that Angus MacKay, as the chairman of the ministerial group on drug misuse, will give us more information on it. There is an urgent need for a debate in this chamber on the issue of drug misuse, the DEA and what it will do. It is easy for drug misuse to take over a debate on law and order—that is an unfortunate phrase— which is the subject of the debate today.

There is no doubt that the UK Government approach has emphasised cutting supply. Three quarters of the £1.4 billion that it spends is on enforcement and only a quarter is spent on prevention, treatment and rehabilitation. That is an imbalance and there is an urgent need for us to spend more on prevention, treatment and rehabilitation. Lyndsay McIntosh was right when she said—it was one point of substance in her speech—that £1 spent on treatment and rehabilitation saves £3 in terms of clearing up crime.

I welcome the Deputy First Minister's announcement today of the extra sports centres and outdoor centres for young people. That is crucial. It coincides with what was said to the Social Inclusion, Housing and Voluntary Sector Committee on Monday by Sally Haw of the Health Education Board for Scotland, when she expressed her concern about the number of outdoor centres and outward bound centres that had closed in the past 20 years. Whether they are called diversion centres or something else, they are a crucial way to help and support young people.

In the social inclusion debate yesterday, I mentioned the issue of exclusion, which was touched on by my colleague Donald Gorrie today. That is absolutely central. We must deal with truancy. I quoted the statistics, which Dr Richard Simpson kindly gave me, on the very successful pupil support unit in Alloa Academy, where exclusion has been cut by half. That already exceeds the targets announced by the Executive earlier this week. That successful example must be spread to other parts of Scotland.

Donald Gorrie and Richard Lochhead also mentioned youth centres. I agree that we need the Executive to produce another of its glossy brochures, but this time with descriptions of best practice in terms of youth centres. A number have

been mentioned today; others include the Corner in Dundee, the Youth Advice Project in Inverurie and Off the Record in Stirling. We need more of these but, as Donald Gorrie rightly said, it is not just about bricks and mortar; it is about the youth workers who do such excellent work. I remember seeing them doing excellent work in a rather scruffy room, beside the swimming pool, in Turriff. It was packed with the kids from the local school at lunchtime. Those kind of drop-in centres for young people are key, because, on exclusion, there is so much evidence that truancy leads to them becoming young offenders and then going on to become hardened criminals.

The drug action teams have a mixed record. The minister must spread the good practice in Glasgow to the other 22 drug action teams, which are less effective.

Finally, I will make this positive point on prisons. I am concerned about the lack of counselling and therapy for addicts in our prisons. There is no question but that those who have the guts to go cold turkey in the drug-free zones do not get enough support. We need far more support for organisations such as Simpson House, which counsel prisoners in prison and provide them with through-care after they have left. That is not public spending—it is public investment. It will reduce the cost of crime and the costs of our prisons.

There are other points that I would like to make, but I will end there. In the near future, let us have a full-scale debate in this chamber on drug misuse. There are so many aspects of this serious problem: education, health—the hepatitis C epidemic is a time bomb that threatens our health boards—and, of course, crime.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1768E72P274C712437", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Murray, Elaine", "ID": 1768, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumfries" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Murray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Elaine Murray (Dumfries) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 222.0, "ContributionID": 712437, "EditedText": "I almost have to admire Phil Gallie for his persistence in applauding the record of the previous Tory Government. Members will recall that the Tories believed that there was no such thing as society.", "EditedTextHTML": "I almost have to admire Phil Gallie for his persistence in applauding the record of the previous Tory Government. Members will recall that the Tories believed that there was no such thing as society.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6076102+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C712438", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Monteith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 224.0, "ContributionID": 712438, "EditedText": "Has the member ever read what Margaret Thatcher said about society? If she has, she will recall that Margaret Thatcher said that there was no such thing as society to take the blame; there were families and communities.", "EditedTextHTML": "Has the member ever read what Margaret Thatcher said about society? If she has, she will recall that Margaret Thatcher said that there was no such thing as society to take the blame; there were families and communities.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6076102+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C712451", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 251.0, "ContributionID": 712451, "EditedText": "In response to Margaret Ewing's point of order, I remind members of the guidance that was issued by the Presiding Officer: \"Members should respect the needs of other members to participate in the business of Parliament and should avoid loud or prolonged discussions which may distract other members.\" I may say that that also goes for noises off and running commentaries.", "EditedTextHTML": "In response to Margaret Ewing's point of order, I remind members of the guidance that was issued by the Presiding Officer:

\"Members should respect the needs of other members to participate in the business of Parliament and should avoid loud or prolonged discussions which may distract other members.\"

I may say that that also goes for noises off and running commentaries.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6076102+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1892E34P73C712457", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Fergusson, Alex", "ID": 1892, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Fergusson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Fergusson (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 266.0, "ContributionID": 712457, "EditedText": "Thank you, Presiding Officer and thank you, Mr Monteith. I would like to make three brief points. First, great weight has been given to the drugs enforcement agency, to which I wish nothing but success. I share with Bill Aitken the hope that Mr MacKay will take our comments as constructive contributions to the debate—we Tories are always constructive. I also hope that the minister will believe me when I tell him that police forces throughout Scotland are concerned that, when the DEA is staffed to the level of expertise that will be required, their own drug action teams may be severely weakened if the DEA draws in their expertise. That would leave the police, who deal with the real and desperate problems of drugs at street level, too diluted to be effective. The minister will recall that he very kindly accepted a petition from me from the people of Stranraer, who have recently been experiencing desperate drugs problems. We must guard against the drugs enforcement agency becoming a sort of ivory tower of drugs-related theory; we must ensure that it maintains a hands-on approach to the problem. I would like to touch on the subject of prison closures, with particular regard to the decision to close Penninghame prison near Newton Stewart. Phil Jones, the chief executive of Dumfries and Galloway Council, said: \"This has been a hasty decision. I don't believe there has been a full consideration of the consequences of this closure either for the Scottish Prison Service or for the local area.\" I totally concur with those sentiments. The minister mentioned value for money; Penninghame operated at 59 per cent of the average cost per prisoner in Scotland. The inmates of the prison have a huge value for society: every year, they put thousands of hours of voluntary service into the local community, which will be extremely hard to replace. Those people are highly valued by the local community. The prison has an excellent rehabilitation record, and its staff go way beyond the call of duty to ensure that that record is sustained. The proposed closure will lead directly to the loss of 45 quality jobs, affecting families in an area with one of the highest unemployment rates in Scotland. The closure has not been thought through and I do not accept that it is a final decision. My final point touches on rural policing. Unlike Linda Fabiani, I and my family were unfortunately the victims of a very unpleasant crime some years ago—a successful attempt to obtain money for drugs. It was not a pleasant experience and anyone who wants to give me sympathy will probably find me in Deacon Brodie's at about 7 o'clock tonight. My point in telling this story is that, when we finally managed to get to a working telephone—which, in rural Scotland, can take quite a long time—we found that the nearest police car was 34 miles away. When that happened to us, there was a significant crime wave throughout the rural part of South Ayrshire because the criminals—who are not stupid—realised that there was a vacuum of police cover during the night, and took advantage of it. I do not think that that is acceptable and I hope that the Administration will address it.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you, Presiding Officer and thank you, Mr Monteith.

I would like to make three brief points. First, great weight has been given to the drugs enforcement agency, to which I wish nothing but success. I share with Bill Aitken the hope that Mr MacKay will take our comments as constructive contributions to the debate—we Tories are always constructive.

I also hope that the minister will believe me when I tell him that police forces throughout Scotland are concerned that, when the DEA is staffed to the level of expertise that will be required, their own drug action teams may be severely weakened if the DEA draws in their expertise. That would leave the police, who deal with the real and desperate problems of drugs at street level, too diluted to be effective.

The minister will recall that he very kindly accepted a petition from me from the people of Stranraer, who have recently been experiencing desperate drugs problems. We must guard against the drugs enforcement agency becoming a sort of ivory tower of drugs-related theory; we must ensure that it maintains a hands-on approach to the problem.

I would like to touch on the subject of prison closures, with particular regard to the decision to close Penninghame prison near Newton Stewart. Phil Jones, the chief executive of Dumfries and Galloway Council, said:

\"This has been a hasty decision. I don't believe there has been a full consideration of the consequences of this closure either for the Scottish Prison Service or for the local area.\"

I totally concur with those sentiments. The minister mentioned value for money; Penninghame operated at 59 per cent of the average cost per prisoner in Scotland. The inmates of the prison have a huge value for society: every year, they put thousands of hours of voluntary service into the local community, which will be extremely hard to replace. Those people are highly valued by the local community. The prison has an excellent rehabilitation record, and its staff go way beyond the call of duty to ensure that that record is sustained. The proposed closure will lead directly to the loss of 45 quality jobs, affecting families in an area with one of the highest unemployment rates in Scotland. The closure has not been thought through and I do not accept that it is a final decision.

My final point touches on rural policing. Unlike Linda Fabiani, I and my family were unfortunately the victims of a very unpleasant crime some years ago—a successful attempt to obtain money for drugs. It was not a pleasant experience and anyone who wants to give me sympathy will probably find me in Deacon Brodie's at about 7 o'clock tonight. My point in telling this story is that, when we finally managed to get to a working telephone—which, in rural Scotland, can take quite a long time—we found that the nearest police car was 34 miles away.

When that happened to us, there was a significant crime wave throughout the rural part of South Ayrshire because the criminals—who are not stupid—realised that there was a vacuum of police cover during the night, and took advantage

of it. I do not think that that is acceptable and I hope that the Administration will address it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6076102+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C712458", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Richard Simpson (Ochil) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 269.0, "ContributionID": 712458, "EditedText": "In opposing the Conservative motion on law and order, I should say that I spent about 29 years in part-time medical work, mainly in Cornton Vale prison. On the suicide risk management executive steering group, I had the privilege of visiting every prison in Scotland, so I have at least seen the service working, albeit not from the inside. In order to make some points, I would like to describe two of our institutions. Polmont young offenders institution admits some 4,000 young men every year. Of those, 46 per cent have previously been in local authority care— they have been what are now called looked-after children; 83 per cent have been through the children's hearing system; 93 per cent have used illicit drugs at some time and 52 per cent are still users; many have been abused; and many have been bullied or been bulliers. The chances of their benefiting from our current programme of incarceration is minimal. We are spending money unwisely; the diversion and prevention policies of the Executive are the ones that we must follow. Cornton Vale is an even sadder situation. Despite attempts to reduce the number of women on remand, the number has again risen. Repeated appeals from successive governors to divert nonviolent offenders and—especially—remand prisoners away from prison appear to have fallen on deaf ears. As Cathy Jamieson said, we are sending young women to jail for non-payment of fines, which is an extremely expensive undertaking for little return. One of the worst cases I came across in my time at Cornton Vale was of a woman with eight children. She was sent there for non-payment of a £200 fine. The children had to be taken into care; the cost, in emotional terms, to those children was immeasurably damaging; the cost to society was thousands of pounds; and the benefit to any of us was absolutely minimal. At least 60 per cent of the resident population in Cornton Vale are drug users. Like Keith Raffan, I have the gravest concerns about our current drugs policy. The mandatory drug testing system introduced by Michael Forsyth has not been subjected to independent evaluation, is an expensive waste of money and is diverting funds from the voluntary drug-free zones, which are a much more important development in the Prison Service. I appeal to the minister to ensure that young women are diverted from custodial remand, as the Executive motion suggests. We should build on the pilot in Plymouth to divert drug addicts from prison into rehabilitation and treatment. The Government has given £100,000 to the three authorities in the old Central region for such a pilot. That approach has been tested and is worth while, as long as the selection is appropriate. We need to build on such schemes, which reduce the prison population and underpin the reduction in prison officers. If we do not do that and pressure inside prisons is maintained, the suicide rate will increase and we will have real problems. As a result, I have real concerns about the reduction in the number of prison officers, not about the closure of prisons. We should have an independent review of mandatory drug testing and ensure that nonviolent prisoners are not incarcerated, except as a last resort. Furthermore, we should develop through-care to support drug offenders before prison, through prison and after prison. That scheme is far too disjointed at the moment.", "EditedTextHTML": "In opposing the Conservative motion on law and order, I should say that I spent about 29 years in part-time medical work, mainly in Cornton Vale prison. On the suicide risk management executive steering group, I had the privilege of visiting every prison in Scotland, so I have at least seen the service working, albeit not from the inside. In order to make some points, I would like to describe two of our institutions.

Polmont young offenders institution admits some 4,000 young men every year. Of those, 46 per cent have previously been in local authority care— they have been what are now called looked-after children; 83 per cent have been through the children's hearing system; 93 per cent have used illicit drugs at some time and 52 per cent are still users; many have been abused; and many have been bullied or been bulliers. The chances of their benefiting from our current programme of incarceration is minimal. We are spending money unwisely; the diversion and prevention policies of the Executive are the ones that we must follow.

Cornton Vale is an even sadder situation. Despite attempts to reduce the number of women on remand, the number has again risen. Repeated appeals from successive governors to divert nonviolent offenders and—especially—remand prisoners away from prison appear to have fallen on deaf ears. As Cathy Jamieson said, we are sending young women to jail for non-payment of fines, which is an extremely expensive undertaking for little return.

One of the worst cases I came across in my time at Cornton Vale was of a woman with eight children. She was sent there for non-payment of a £200 fine. The children had to be taken into care; the cost, in emotional terms, to those children was immeasurably damaging; the cost to society was thousands of pounds; and the benefit to any of us was absolutely minimal.

At least 60 per cent of the resident population in Cornton Vale are drug users. Like Keith Raffan, I have the gravest concerns about our current drugs policy. The mandatory drug testing system introduced by Michael Forsyth has not been subjected to independent evaluation, is an expensive waste of money and is diverting funds from the voluntary drug-free zones, which are a much more important development in the Prison Service.

I appeal to the minister to ensure that young women are diverted from custodial remand, as the Executive motion suggests. We should build on the pilot in Plymouth to divert drug addicts from prison into rehabilitation and treatment. The Government has given £100,000 to the three authorities in the old Central region for such a pilot. That approach has been tested and is worth while, as long as the selection is appropriate. We need to build on such schemes, which reduce the prison population and underpin the reduction in prison officers. If we do not do that and pressure inside prisons is maintained, the suicide rate will increase and we will have real problems. As a result, I have real concerns about the reduction in the number of prison officers, not about the closure of prisons.

We should have an independent review of mandatory drug testing and ensure that nonviolent prisoners are not incarcerated, except as a last resort. Furthermore, we should develop through-care to support drug offenders before prison, through prison and after prison. That scheme is far too disjointed at the moment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6076102+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1990E181P340C712459", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robson, Euan", "ID": 1990, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Roxburgh and Berwickshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Euan Robson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Euan Robson (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 272.0, "ContributionID": 712459, "EditedText": "I welcome this debate, although we should perhaps leave it to onlookers to decide whether it has generated more heat than shed light. Although Mr Gallie's opening speech unwrapped the old parcel of assorted Tory prejudices, the Conservatives have now clearly admitted that they do not and did not support the incorporation of the ECHR into UK law. Moreover, although I acknowledge Lord James Douglas-Hamilton's point about potential problems in courts, it does no good for some outsiders to exaggerate the extent of the problems that the ruling on temporary sheriffs has created. The creation of the 10 new floating sheriffs— which is \"in the pipeline\", as Mr Aitken put it—and the other actions taken by the Lord Advocate and the sheriffs principal are effective and early responses to the situation. Perhaps the minister might also consider the appointment of permanent part-time sheriffs, which might help to fill some of the gap. We must await today's ruling in the Court of Session, but I do not see how 20 years'-worth of temporary sheriff judgments can be overturned when the ECHR has been incorporated into UK law for only a few months. Although crime figures are a source of endless debate, there is no doubting the official figures. In 1979, 346,680 crimes were recorded in Scotland. In 1997, the figure had risen to 420,642. The important point to make is that if the 1979 figures had remained static, there would have been 2,500,000 fewer victims.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome this debate, although we should perhaps leave it to onlookers to decide whether it has generated more heat than shed light.

Although Mr Gallie's opening speech unwrapped the old parcel of assorted Tory prejudices, the Conservatives have now clearly admitted that they do not and did not support the incorporation of the ECHR into UK law. Moreover, although I acknowledge Lord James Douglas-Hamilton's point about potential problems in courts, it does no good for some outsiders to exaggerate the extent of the problems that the ruling on temporary sheriffs has created.

The creation of the 10 new floating sheriffs— which is \"in the pipeline\", as Mr Aitken put it—and the other actions taken by the Lord Advocate and the sheriffs principal are effective and early responses to the situation. Perhaps the minister might also consider the appointment of permanent part-time sheriffs, which might help to fill some of the gap. We must await today's ruling in the Court of Session, but I do not see how 20 years'-worth of temporary sheriff judgments can be overturned when the ECHR has been incorporated into UK law for only a few months.

Although crime figures are a source of endless debate, there is no doubting the official figures. In 1979, 346,680 crimes were recorded in Scotland. In 1997, the figure had risen to 420,642. The important point to make is that if the 1979 figures had remained static, there would have been 2,500,000 fewer victims.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6076102+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1990E181P340C712461", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robson, Euan", "ID": 1990, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Roxburgh and Berwickshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Euan Robson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Euan Robson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 276.0, "ContributionID": 712461, "EditedText": "I thank Mr Gallie for his contribution, but my focus is on the victims. There is no doubt that when crime rises, the number of victims increases. The point about that particular period of time is that there was an unnecessary increase in the number of victims. The best deterrent to crime is detection. The number of charges proved between 1986 and 1996 dropped from 184,000 to 153,000. Detection and conviction are essential to crime reduction. Hence, I welcome the Minister for Justice's statement that the rate of clear-ups has been increased since 1997. That is important. It is important to recall what has happened to police manpower. Between 30 June 1997 and 30 June 1999, the number of serving police officers fell by 88. However, that does not take account of the fact that there are 400 extra support staff. In addition, the gap has been closing since September. Further officers will also be recruited to the drugs enforcement agency. The debate ought to have concentrated more on alternatives to custody. I do not want to add to what Richard Simpson said. His was an immensely important speech. Far too many of the people in prisons ought not to be there. We need better systems for dealing with the problems that such people face. There should also have been more emphasis on crime prevention. Community safety strategies are being developed—I had the privilege of seeing one of them in the Borders recently. The strategies will make a considerable contribution, as they will join up the thinking of a number of agencies about how to tackle crime. More can be done to increase household security through schemes similar to the home energy efficiency scheme, under which draught proofing and insulation work is carried out. The same model could be used to assist less-well-off and vulnerable homeowners to protect their homes. I agree whole-heartedly with Donald Gorrie and Keith Raffan's comments about youth crime. The minister's announcement about extra youth facilities is welcome; it is important to develop youth centres and drop-in centres. From my experience as a teacher, I know that truancy is the first step on the road to crime. If we can tackle truancy, we will tackle crime. The progression can be seen—truancy leads to vandalism. Many professionals in the appropriate agencies have pointed that out. I recently visited Longriggend remand institution, which is soon to close, with the Justice and Home Affairs Committee. It was obvious that where young people are on remand, all categories of prisoner should not be lumped together. We should separate out the hard core to allow those on remand to have better rehabilitation. I listened carefully to Tony Cameron when he came to the Justice and Home Affairs Committee. His case was persuasive: we do not have too few prisons, but we have the wrong types of prison. We may have too many open prisons and too few higher-security prisons. The Executive is therefore right to consider the closure of an open prison. I hope that that will lead to investment in other prisons.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank Mr Gallie for his contribution, but my focus is on the victims. There is no doubt that when crime rises, the number of victims increases. The point about that particular period of time is that there was an unnecessary increase in the number of victims.

The best deterrent to crime is detection. The number of charges proved between 1986 and 1996 dropped from 184,000 to 153,000. Detection and conviction are essential to crime reduction. Hence, I welcome the Minister for Justice's statement that the rate of clear-ups has been increased since 1997. That is important.

It is important to recall what has happened to police manpower. Between 30 June 1997 and 30 June 1999, the number of serving police officers fell by 88. However, that does not take account of the fact that there are 400 extra support staff. In addition, the gap has been closing since September. Further officers will also be recruited to the drugs enforcement agency.

The debate ought to have concentrated more on alternatives to custody. I do not want to add to what Richard Simpson said. His was an immensely important speech. Far too many of the people in prisons ought not to be there. We need better systems for dealing with the problems that such people face.

There should also have been more emphasis on crime prevention. Community safety strategies are being developed—I had the privilege of seeing one of them in the Borders recently. The strategies will make a considerable contribution, as they will join up the thinking of a number of agencies about how to tackle crime.

More can be done to increase household security through schemes similar to the home energy efficiency scheme, under which draught proofing and insulation work is carried out. The same model could be used to assist less-well-off and vulnerable homeowners to protect their homes.

I agree whole-heartedly with Donald Gorrie and Keith Raffan's comments about youth crime. The minister's announcement about extra youth facilities is welcome; it is important to develop youth centres and drop-in centres. From my experience as a teacher, I know that truancy is the first step on the road to crime. If we can tackle truancy, we will tackle crime. The progression can be seen—truancy leads to vandalism. Many professionals in the appropriate agencies have pointed that out.

I recently visited Longriggend remand institution, which is soon to close, with the Justice and Home Affairs Committee. It was obvious that where young people are on remand, all categories of prisoner should not be lumped together. We should separate out the hard core to allow those on remand to have better rehabilitation.

I listened carefully to Tony Cameron when he came to the Justice and Home Affairs Committee. His case was persuasive: we do not have too few prisons, but we have the wrong types of prison. We may have too many open prisons and too few higher-security prisons. The Executive is therefore right to consider the closure of an open prison. I hope that that will lead to investment in other prisons.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6076102+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1990E181P340C712463", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robson, Euan", "ID": 1990, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Roxburgh and Berwickshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Euan Robson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Euan Robson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 281.0, "ContributionID": 712463, "EditedText": "Does Christine Grahame remember from our discussion in the Justice and Home Affairs Committee meeting on Tuesday that it was suggested that, from time to time, there are enough people in open prisons to fill but two of them—not the three that we currently have? Does she agree that there is a necessity to rationalise our prison provision, and that there is more need for higher-security prisons than for the open prisons?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does Christine Grahame remember from our discussion in the Justice and Home Affairs Committee meeting on Tuesday that it was suggested that, from time to time, there are enough people in open prisons to fill but two of them—not the three that we currently have? Does she agree that there is a necessity to rationalise our prison provision, and that there is more need for higher-security prisons than for the open prisons?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6076102+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C712465", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 285.0, "ContributionID": 712465, "EditedText": "I call the minister to wind up for the Executive. You have about nine minutes.", "EditedTextHTML": "I call the minister to wind up for the Executive. You have about nine minutes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6076102+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C712466", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Justice (Angus MacKay): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 288.0, "ContributionID": 712466, "EditedText": "Today's debate has been full and interesting. When I saw the terms of the Conservative motion, I could guess what kind of debate we would have and I have not been disappointed. It is always a pleasure to watch a debate, particularly when Mr Gallie is participating. Before I pick up on some of the specific matters raised by members, I will begin by emphasising the Executive's commitment to progressing our justice programme for a safe and fair Scotland. The three issues around which the debate has centred are policing, prisons and the courts. I will address policing first. When the most recent Scottish crime survey examined the future of policing in Scotland, it indicated that Scotland was generally comfortable with the way in which it was policed. Since 1997, the number of police officers and civilian staff in Scotland has increased by over 200. The greater use of civilian support staff means that police officers have been relieved of a wide range of routine duties, which has enabled them to concentrate on more direct policing matters. The funding increases that are planned in the three-year period ahead should enable the police to maintain numbers at broadly existing levels, after taking into account efficiency savings over the same period. It is true to say that the Executive is by no means parsimonious in relation to funding for the police. For example, in the current financial year we have been able to provide Scottish police forces with £4.75 million of additional funding, to assist them to meet the cost of policing millennium celebrations. There is no doubt that prison numbers, which have been the subject of some debate today, are difficult to forecast. The Scottish Prison Service corporate plan projection for 1999-2000 was originally 6,200 prisoners. During the summer, the SPS statisticians reduced that figure to 6,100. However, we currently have fewer than 6,000 prisoners and the average for this financial year looks likely to be around 6,000. As a consequence, decisions have to be based on a judgment of the likely future numbers. The Executive will continue to monitor the prison population trend as carefully as we can and, if circumstances seem likely to change, we shall adapt our strategy accordingly.", "EditedTextHTML": "Today's debate has been full and interesting. When I saw the terms of the Conservative motion, I could guess what kind of debate we would have and I have not been disappointed. It is always a pleasure to watch a debate, particularly when Mr Gallie is participating.

Before I pick up on some of the specific matters raised by members, I will begin by emphasising the Executive's commitment to progressing our justice programme for a safe and fair Scotland.

The three issues around which the debate has centred are policing, prisons and the courts. I will address policing first. When the most recent Scottish crime survey examined the future of policing in Scotland, it indicated that Scotland was generally comfortable with the way in which it was policed. Since 1997, the number of police officers and civilian staff in Scotland has increased by over

200. The greater use of civilian support staff means that police officers have been relieved of a wide range of routine duties, which has enabled them to concentrate on more direct policing matters. The funding increases that are planned in the three-year period ahead should enable the police to maintain numbers at broadly existing levels, after taking into account efficiency savings over the same period. It is true to say that the Executive is by no means parsimonious in relation to funding for the police. For example, in the current financial year we have been able to provide Scottish police forces with £4.75 million of additional funding, to assist them to meet the cost of policing millennium celebrations.

There is no doubt that prison numbers, which have been the subject of some debate today, are difficult to forecast. The Scottish Prison Service corporate plan projection for 1999-2000 was originally 6,200 prisoners. During the summer, the SPS statisticians reduced that figure to 6,100. However, we currently have fewer than 6,000 prisoners and the average for this financial year looks likely to be around 6,000. As a consequence, decisions have to be based on a judgment of the likely future numbers. The Executive will continue to monitor the prison population trend as carefully as we can and, if circumstances seem likely to change, we shall adapt our strategy accordingly.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6076102+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C712470", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Angus MacKay: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 296.0, "ContributionID": 712470, "EditedText": "An important distinction needs to be made between whether funding is increasing year on year and whether it is increasing to a sufficient extent year on year. An important and sensible debate has to take place on that. I merely make the point that a substantial uplift in capital funding was awarded to Strathclyde police force last week. That is accurate and fair. A number of other points were made in the debate; sadly, I will not be able to mention them in my remarks. I know that some members were heading for their mobile telephones and for the telephones in the members' coffee lounge to talk to their divorce lawyers when they heard what the implications would be of today's decision in the Court of Session. That case is over, and it might be helpful if I advise Parliament that the outcome of this morning's appeal against the involvement of temporary sheriffs was that the appeal was refused. That means that if members thought that they were divorced, they are divorced—which might put their minds at rest. It is important that at some point we debate drugs as an issue in its own right. Mr Raffan and Christine Grahame made some valuable points on that. I should tell members that 5,300 people are due to complete drug programmes in Prison Service establishments this year. That is an increase from 2,800 last year, and from 1,650 the year before that; it is a significant improvement. I am sure that members will be treated by David McLetchie to all sorts of spectacular statements and figures. If that is not the case, members will be disappointed. He will tell members that prisons are underfunded, but he will not say that there will be increases in prison funding every year for all the planned years ahead. He will not tell members that the Executive will be spending on average £55 million more per annum than did the previous Conservative Administration in its last five years. I do not know how, in that context, the Conservatives can justify any of their criticisms. David McLetchie will tell members that police numbers are down—he will not say that civilian police staff numbers have risen from 19,288— when the Conservatives left office—to 19,509. It is also important that there are 200 additional officers going into the field in the fight against drugs. That is not a byway of the criminal justice system—it is central to what the Executive is trying to do. Drugs is one of the biggest single contributors to crime and criminal activity. If that additional number of officers does not show serious commitment, I do know what will. I am proud to say that the European convention on human rights was signed on the country's behalf by a Labour Administration in 1950. If the Tories do not support the ECHR, why did not Winston Churchill reverse that decision when he took office in 1951? Why did not successive Conservative Administrations withdraw from incorporation of the ECHR at any time that they were in office? Why did not that happen during the 18 years of Tory government? The phrase \"all mouth and no trousers\" springs to mind. I accept none of the Tories' criticisms on that matter. I am sure that Mr McLetchie will re-emphasise his view that crime is on the increase. Between 1979 and 1997, crime increased by 35 per cent— from 674,000 to 910,000 cases. In all those years of Conservative government, from 1979 to 1997, violent crime doubled from 10,000 to 20,000 cases. If the Conservatives could not fix that by 18 years of criminal policy, social policy and economic policy, they should not criticise this Administration after six months.", "EditedTextHTML": "An important distinction needs to be made between whether funding is increasing year on year and whether it is increasing to a sufficient extent year on year. An important and sensible debate has to take place on that. I merely make the point that a substantial uplift in capital funding was awarded to Strathclyde police force last week. That is accurate and fair.

A number of other points were made in the debate; sadly, I will not be able to mention them in my remarks.

I know that some members were heading for their mobile telephones and for the telephones in the members' coffee lounge to talk to their divorce lawyers when they heard what the implications would be of today's decision in the Court of Session. That case is over, and it might be helpful if I advise Parliament that the outcome of this morning's appeal against the involvement of temporary sheriffs was that the appeal was refused. That means that if members thought that they were divorced, they are divorced—which might put their minds at rest.

It is important that at some point we debate drugs as an issue in its own right. Mr Raffan and Christine Grahame made some valuable points on that. I should tell members that 5,300 people are due to complete drug programmes in Prison Service establishments this year. That is an increase from 2,800 last year, and from 1,650 the year before that; it is a significant improvement.

I am sure that members will be treated by David McLetchie to all sorts of spectacular statements and figures. If that is not the case, members will be disappointed. He will tell members that prisons are underfunded, but he will not say that there will be increases in prison funding every year for all the planned years ahead. He will not tell members that the Executive will be spending on average

£55 million more per annum than did the previous Conservative Administration in its last five years. I do not know how, in that context, the Conservatives can justify any of their criticisms.

David McLetchie will tell members that police numbers are down—he will not say that civilian police staff numbers have risen from 19,288— when the Conservatives left office—to 19,509. It is also important that there are 200 additional officers going into the field in the fight against drugs. That is not a byway of the criminal justice system—it is central to what the Executive is trying to do. Drugs is one of the biggest single contributors to crime and criminal activity. If that additional number of officers does not show serious commitment, I do know what will.

I am proud to say that the European convention on human rights was signed on the country's behalf by a Labour Administration in 1950. If the Tories do not support the ECHR, why did not Winston Churchill reverse that decision when he took office in 1951? Why did not successive Conservative Administrations withdraw from incorporation of the ECHR at any time that they were in office? Why did not that happen during the 18 years of Tory government? The phrase \"all mouth and no trousers\" springs to mind. I accept none of the Tories' criticisms on that matter.

I am sure that Mr McLetchie will re-emphasise his view that crime is on the increase. Between 1979 and 1997, crime increased by 35 per cent— from 674,000 to 910,000 cases. In all those years of Conservative government, from 1979 to 1997, violent crime doubled from 10,000 to 20,000 cases. If the Conservatives could not fix that by 18 years of criminal policy, social policy and economic policy, they should not criticise this Administration after six months.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6076102+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C712475", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 307.0, "ContributionID": 712475, "EditedText": "I am sorry. If Mr Raffan waits for a few minutes I shall say something complimentary about him. Jim Wallace may legitimately point out that he was not responsible for the situation until May. He is right; he was not responsible. It is his Labour predecessors who should take the blame for the trends. However, he has done nothing to reverse those trends. As we heard from Christine Grahame and others, the Scottish Police Federation anticipates a shortfall of between 500 and 1,000 officers next year. That is a damaging statistic. I believe that there is a direct correlation between the number of officers we are able to deploy in our communities and rates of crime. All international experience— for example, from New York, which has had major success in tackling crime rates in recent years— suggests that the key to tackling crime is to have more officers in the job. That is incontestable.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry. If Mr Raffan waits for a few minutes I shall say something complimentary about him.

Jim Wallace may legitimately point out that he was not responsible for the situation until May. He is right; he was not responsible. It is his Labour predecessors who should take the blame for the trends. However, he has done nothing to reverse those trends.

As we heard from Christine Grahame and others, the Scottish Police Federation anticipates a shortfall of between 500 and 1,000 officers next year. That is a damaging statistic. I believe that there is a direct correlation between the number of officers we are able to deploy in our communities and rates of crime. All international experience— for example, from New York, which has had major success in tackling crime rates in recent years— suggests that the key to tackling crime is to have more officers in the job. That is incontestable.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6076102+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712487", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27111, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 323.0, "ID": 27111, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 329.0, "ContributionID": 712487, "EditedText": "2.30 pm Time for Reflection followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions followed by Stage 3 Debate on the Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill", "EditedTextHTML": "2.30 pm Time for Reflection followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions followed by Stage 3 Debate on the Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6076102+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712494", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27111, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 323.0, "ID": 27111, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 336.0, "ContributionID": 712494, "EditedText": "Wednesday 8 December 1999", "EditedTextHTML": "Wednesday 8 December 1999

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6076102+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712495", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27111, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 323.0, "ID": 27111, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 337.0, "ContributionID": 712495, "EditedText": "2.30 pm Time for Reflection followed by Ministerial Statement on Local Government Finance followed by Debate on Executive Motion on Sea Fisheries followed by Parliamentary Bureau motions", "EditedTextHTML": "2.30 pm Time for Reflection followed by Ministerial Statement on Local Government Finance followed by Debate on Executive Motion on Sea Fisheries followed by Parliamentary Bureau motions

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6076102+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712497", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27111, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 323.0, "ID": 27111, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 339.0, "ContributionID": 712497, "EditedText": "Thursday 9 December 1999", "EditedTextHTML": "Thursday 9 December 1999

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6076102+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712499", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27111, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 323.0, "ID": 27111, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 341.0, "ContributionID": 712499, "EditedText": "2.30 pm Question Time", "EditedTextHTML": "2.30 pm Question Time

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6076102+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C712504", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27111, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 323.0, "ID": 27111, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 347.0, "ContributionID": 712504, "EditedText": "The next item of business is consideration of Parliamentary Bureau motions, but there is none today. Question, That the meeting be now adjourned until 2.30 pm today, put and agreed to.—Mr McCabe.", "EditedTextHTML": "The next item of business is consideration of Parliamentary Bureau motions, but there is none today.

Question, That the meeting be now adjourned until 2.30 pm today, put and agreed to.—[Mr McCabe.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6076102+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712506", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27111, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 323.0, "ID": 27111, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 351.0, "ContributionID": 712506, "EditedText": "On resuming—", "EditedTextHTML": "On resuming—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6076102+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2140E187P335C712510", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27112, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 352.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27113, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 353.0, "QuestionHeading": "Teachers", "QuestionHeadingID": 27115, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 361.0, "DisplayOrder": 361.0, "ID": 27115, "ParentID": 27113 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Rumbles, Mike", "ID": 2140, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Rumbles", "SpeakerDisplayName": "2. Mr Mike Rumbles (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 362.0, "ContributionID": 712510, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what plans are in place to promote continuing professional development of teachers working in remote and sparsely populated rural areas of Scotland. (S1O-727) The Deputy Minister for Children and", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what plans are in place to promote continuing professional development of teachers working in remote and sparsely populated rural areas of Scotland. (S1O-727) The Deputy Minister for Children and

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6076102+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2140E187P335C712512", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27112, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 352.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27113, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 353.0, "QuestionHeading": "Teachers", "QuestionHeadingID": 27115, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 361.0, "DisplayOrder": 361.0, "ID": 27115, "ParentID": 27113 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Rumbles, Mike", "ID": 2140, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Rumbles", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Rumbles: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 366.0, "ContributionID": 712512, "EditedText": "I congratulate the Executive on its forward-looking approach to the continuing professional development of teachers, but does the minister recognise the considerable expertise in that field of Northern College in Aberdeen, especially in relation to teachers in rural areas, which is, after all, where 60 per cent of Scotland's schools are located? Does he recognise that Northern College already provides one of the most comprehensive portfolios of continuing teacher development packages in Scotland?", "EditedTextHTML": "I congratulate the Executive on its forward-looking approach to the continuing professional development of teachers, but does the minister recognise the considerable expertise in that field of Northern College in Aberdeen, especially in relation to teachers in rural areas, which is, after all, where 60 per cent of Scotland's schools are located? Does he recognise that Northern College already provides one of the most comprehensive portfolios of continuing teacher development packages in Scotland?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1832E96P195C712514", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27112, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 352.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27113, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 353.0, "QuestionHeading": "Listed Buildings", "QuestionHeadingID": 27116, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 370.0, "DisplayOrder": 370.0, "ID": 27116, "ParentID": 27113 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Livingstone, Marilyn", "ID": 1832, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Kirkcaldy" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Marilyn Livingstone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "3. Marilyn Livingstone (Kirkcaldy) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 371.0, "ContributionID": 712514, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what powers it has to ensure that publicly funded organisations maintain category A and B listed buildings and structures within their ownership. (S1O-669) The Deputy Minister for Culture and Sport (Rhona Brankin): There is no statutory requirement on owners to keep buildings— whether listed or not—in good repair. However, planning authorities and—in exceptional circumstances—Scottish ministers have powers to take action when buildings have deteriorated to the point where there is real concern for their future.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what powers it has to ensure that publicly funded organisations maintain category A and B listed buildings and structures within their ownership. (S1O-669) The Deputy Minister for Culture and Sport (Rhona Brankin): There is no statutory requirement on owners to keep buildings— whether listed or not—in good repair. However, planning authorities and—in exceptional circumstances—Scottish ministers have powers to take action when buildings have deteriorated to the point where there is real concern for their future.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1821E295P538C712520", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27112, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 352.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27113, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 353.0, "QuestionHeading": "Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill", "QuestionHeadingID": 27118, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 384.0, "DisplayOrder": 384.0, "ID": 27118, "ParentID": 27113 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Mrs Margaret", "ID": 1821, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Moray" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "5. Mrs Margaret Ewing (Moray) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 385.0, "ContributionID": 712520, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what proposals it has to ensure that the findings of the Millan committee are taken account of during the passage of the Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill. (S1O-672) The Deputy Minister for Community Care (Iain Gray): The Executive has already received advice from the Millan committee about nonmedical matters in the Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill, and in due course will wish to consider carefully any advice from the committee about the health care matters that are covered in part 5 of the bill, or indeed about the interrelationship between mental health and incapacity legislation.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what proposals it has to ensure that the findings of the Millan committee are taken account of during the passage of the Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill. (S1O-672) The Deputy Minister for Community Care (Iain Gray): The Executive has already received advice from the Millan committee about nonmedical matters in the Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill, and in due course will wish to consider carefully any advice from the committee about the health care matters that are covered in part 5 of the bill, or indeed about the interrelationship between mental health and incapacity legislation.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1926E190P479C712525", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27112, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 352.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27113, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 353.0, "QuestionHeading": "Peterhead Prison", "QuestionHeadingID": 27119, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 395.0, "DisplayOrder": 395.0, "ID": 27119, "ParentID": 27113 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Adam, Brian", "ID": 1926, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Adam", "SpeakerDisplayName": "6. Brian Adam (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 396.0, "ContributionID": 712525, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what criteria were applied to the mothballing of the special unit at Peterhead prison. (S1O-725)", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what criteria were applied to the mothballing of the special unit at Peterhead prison. (S1O-725)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1926E190P479C712527", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27112, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 352.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27113, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 353.0, "QuestionHeading": "Peterhead Prison", "QuestionHeadingID": 27119, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 395.0, "DisplayOrder": 395.0, "ID": 27119, "ParentID": 27113 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Adam, Brian", "ID": 1926, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Adam", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Brian Adam: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 400.0, "ContributionID": 712527, "EditedText": "Given that the announcement about changes to the prison system was made on 21 October, can the minister tell us when the Scottish Prison Service first knew of the proposals and why the staff representatives were not contacted earlier to help manage those changes?", "EditedTextHTML": "Given that the announcement about changes to the prison system was made on 21 October, can the minister tell us when the Scottish Prison Service first knew of the proposals and why the staff representatives were not contacted earlier to help manage those changes?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C712531", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27112, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 352.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27113, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 353.0, "QuestionHeading": "Perth and Kinross Council", "QuestionHeadingID": 27120, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 408.0, "DisplayOrder": 408.0, "ID": 27120, "ParentID": 27113 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "7. Mr Keith Raffan (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 409.0, "ContributionID": 712531, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what representations it has received from and what meetings it has had with Perth and Kinross Council regarding ensuring that its budget is in line with guideline figures next financial year. (S1O722) The Minister for Finance (Mr Jack McConnell): I met the leader of Perth and Kinross Council on 28 June. At that meeting, I asked the council to submit an action plan outlining how it would return to guideline next year. I received that information just before the end of July.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what representations it has received from and what meetings it has had with Perth and Kinross Council regarding ensuring that its budget is in line with guideline figures next financial year. (S1O722) The Minister for Finance (Mr Jack McConnell): I met the leader of Perth and Kinross Council on 28 June. At that meeting, I asked the council to submit an action plan outlining how it would return to guideline next year. I received that information just before the end of July.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2154E194P299C712540", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27112, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 352.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27113, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 353.0, "QuestionHeading": "Enterprise Policy", "QuestionHeadingID": 27122, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 426.0, "DisplayOrder": 426.0, "ID": 27122, "ParentID": 27113 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stephen, Nicol", "ID": 2154, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Nicol Stephen", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning (Nicol Stephen): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 429.0, "ContributionID": 712540, "EditedText": "The Scottish Executive has regular contact with the Treasury on issues relating to enterprise policy. We will be discussing the details of a number of new proposals with the Treasury and the Department of Trade and Industry to ensure that any proposals of potential UK-wide application can be developed to reflect the particular needs of Scottish business.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Scottish Executive has regular contact with the Treasury on issues relating to enterprise policy. We will be discussing the details of a number of new proposals with the Treasury and the Department of Trade and Industry to ensure that any proposals

of potential UK-wide application can be developed to reflect the particular needs of Scottish business.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C712551", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27112, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 352.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27113, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 353.0, "QuestionHeading": "Business Rates", "QuestionHeadingID": 27124, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 446.0, "DisplayOrder": 446.0, "ID": 27124, "ParentID": 27113 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 453.0, "ContributionID": 712551, "EditedText": "I am determined that, whatever the outcome of the individual revaluations across Scotland and England, the level playing field that has existed between equivalent businesses across the UK will continue.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am determined that, whatever the outcome of the individual revaluations across Scotland and England, the level playing field that has existed between equivalent businesses across the UK will continue.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2154E194P299C712556", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27112, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 352.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27113, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 353.0, "QuestionHeading": "Consumer Strategy White Paper", "QuestionHeadingID": 27126, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 462.0, "DisplayOrder": 462.0, "ID": 27126, "ParentID": 27113 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stephen, Nicol", "ID": 2154, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Nicol Stephen", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning (Nicol Stephen): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 465.0, "ContributionID": 712556, "EditedText": "The Scottish Executive has provided detailed comments to the Department of Trade and Industry on the consumer strategy white paper, setting out a range of initiatives that should benefit consumers in Scotland and extend their rights.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Scottish Executive has provided detailed comments to the Department of Trade and Industry on the consumer strategy white paper, setting out a range of initiatives that should benefit consumers in Scotland and extend their rights.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2154E194P299C712558", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27112, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 352.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27113, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 353.0, "QuestionHeading": "Consumer Strategy White Paper", "QuestionHeadingID": 27126, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 462.0, "DisplayOrder": 462.0, "ID": 27126, "ParentID": 27113 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stephen, Nicol", "ID": 2154, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Nicol Stephen", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicol Stephen: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 469.0, "ContributionID": 712558, "EditedText": "Ministers are well aware of the success of the in-court advice project at Edinburgh sheriff court. Although we are considering the creation of such advice projects in other sheriff courts, or groups of courts, we are not in a position to make an announcement today. However, I hope that my answer emphasises our recognition of the importance of giving consumers new rights and the ability to exercise those rights. I am certain that the Minister for Justice will be interested in receiving additional information from Mr Wilson about the situation in Kilmarnock sheriff court.", "EditedTextHTML": "Ministers are well aware of the success of the in-court advice project at Edinburgh sheriff court. Although we are considering the creation of such advice projects in other sheriff courts, or groups of courts, we are not in a position to make an announcement today. However, I hope that my answer emphasises our recognition of the importance of giving consumers new rights and the ability to exercise those rights.

I am certain that the Minister for Justice will be interested in receiving additional information from Mr Wilson about the situation in Kilmarnock sheriff court.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C712566", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27112, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 352.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27113, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 353.0, "QuestionHeading": "Rail Safety", "QuestionHeadingID": 27128, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 482.0, "DisplayOrder": 482.0, "ID": 27128, "ParentID": 27113 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 487.0, "ContributionID": 712566, "EditedText": "I thank the minister for his answer and express my gratitude for his versatility, as he represents a constituency that has no railway level crossings and, indeed, no railways. Are he and Sarah Boyack aware of the railway level crossing at Stevenston in Ayrshire, which is closed 114 times a day for a total of nine hours a day? It is causing such frustration to residents that, unfortunately, many of them are trying to cross the track, despite the fact that there is no footbridge. That is a railway disaster waiting to happen, in which Railtrack shows no interest. Will the minister consult Railtrack and try to persuade it to use some of its profits to help the community of Stevenston?", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the minister for his answer and express my gratitude for his versatility, as he represents a constituency that has no railway level crossings and, indeed, no railways.

Are he and Sarah Boyack aware of the railway level crossing at Stevenston in Ayrshire, which is closed 114 times a day for a total of nine hours a day? It is causing such frustration to residents that, unfortunately, many of them are trying to cross the track, despite the fact that there is no footbridge. That is a railway disaster waiting to happen, in which Railtrack shows no interest. Will the minister consult Railtrack and try to persuade it to use some of its profits to help the community of Stevenston?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2108E50P256C712568", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27112, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 352.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27113, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 353.0, "QuestionHeading": "Non-domestic Rates", "QuestionHeadingID": 27129, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 491.0, "DisplayOrder": 491.0, "ID": 27129, "ParentID": 27113 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macintosh, Ken", "ID": 2108, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Eastwood" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ken Macintosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "17. Mr Kenneth Macintosh (Eastwood) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 492.0, "ContributionID": 712568, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what impact the revaluation of non-domestic rates will have on small businesses in East Renfrewshire. (S1O-717)", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what impact the revaluation of non-domestic rates will have on small businesses in East Renfrewshire. (S1O-717)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C712574", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27112, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 352.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27113, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 353.0, "QuestionHeading": "Drugs Budget", "QuestionHeadingID": 27130, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 500.0, "DisplayOrder": 500.0, "ID": 27130, "ParentID": 27113 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 505.0, "ContributionID": 712574, "EditedText": "The Executive is always concerned to ensure that patients receive the best and most appropriate information. We also comply with the relevant European directive. We believe that it is important that decisions about drugs and other treatments are right and are considered openly. That is why I am pleased this week to have announced the establishment of the Scottish health technology assessment centre, which will take forward work in that area.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Executive is always concerned to ensure that patients receive the best and most appropriate information. We also comply with the relevant European directive. We believe that it is important that decisions about drugs and other treatments are right and are considered openly. That is why I am pleased this week to have announced the establishment of the Scottish health technology assessment centre, which will take forward work in that area.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C712578", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27132, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 514.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27133, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 515.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27134, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 516.0, "DisplayOrder": 516.0, "ID": 27134, "ParentID": 27133 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "1. Mr Alex Salmond (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 517.0, "ContributionID": 712578, "EditedText": "I ask the First Minister the usual question. Laughter. To ask the Scottish Executive when the First Minister last met the Secretary of State for Scotland and what issues they discussed. (S1O674)", "EditedTextHTML": "I ask the First Minister the usual question. [Laughter.] To ask the Scottish Executive when the First Minister last met the Secretary of State for Scotland and what issues they discussed. (S1O674)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C712580", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27132, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 514.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27133, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 515.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27134, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 516.0, "DisplayOrder": 516.0, "ID": 27134, "ParentID": 27133 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 521.0, "ContributionID": 712580, "EditedText": "Well, I will tell the First Minister what he should have been discussing. In these days of freedom of information, I am sure that the First Minister would be delighted to answer questions on the report which appeared in The Herald this morning about a memo entitled \"Dealing with the Scottish Parliament: Situation Report\". Why are civil servants in the Scottish Executive sending out memos about the restriction of the rights of this Parliament and its committees to question the Executive?", "EditedTextHTML": "Well, I will tell the First Minister what he should have been discussing. In these days of freedom of information, I am sure that the First Minister would be delighted to answer questions on the report which appeared in The Herald this morning about a memo entitled \"Dealing with the Scottish Parliament: Situation Report\". Why are civil servants in the Scottish Executive sending out memos about the restriction of the rights of this Parliament and its committees to question the Executive?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C712585", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27132, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 514.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27133, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 515.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27134, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 516.0, "DisplayOrder": 516.0, "ID": 27134, "ParentID": 27133 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 531.0, "ContributionID": 712585, "EditedText": "I repeat the point: we are showing openness. At Westminster, members would have been told that no one would discuss a leaked document, or approach the matter in any way at all. Mr Salmond should recognise this new flexibility.", "EditedTextHTML": "I repeat the point: we are showing openness. At Westminster, members would have been told that no one would discuss a leaked document, or approach the matter in any way at all. Mr Salmond should recognise this new flexibility.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C712586", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27132, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 514.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27133, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 515.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27134, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 516.0, "DisplayOrder": 516.0, "ID": 27134, "ParentID": 27133 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 533.0, "ContributionID": 712586, "EditedText": "Thanks.", "EditedTextHTML": "

Thanks.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C712587", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27132, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 514.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27133, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 515.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27134, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 516.0, "DisplayOrder": 516.0, "ID": 27134, "ParentID": 27133 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 535.0, "ContributionID": 712587, "EditedText": "Andrew Wilson says, \"Thanks\", but if he examined the way in which we have approached this matter, he would see how open our approach is. I have not passed judgment on specific proposals that the document may contain. I repeat that this is not a matter of unilateral dictation to the committee system. All these matters would have been subject to further discussion, ultimately with the clerks and, presumably, through them with the committee system and the Presiding Officer. I do not say this in a partisan spirit: Alex Salmond is tilting at windmills in his attempt to make this into a big issue. He must understand the nature of this document, its helpful intent, and measure that against the enormously open way in which we have conducted, and will continue to conduct, the ministerial contributions to the committee system.", "EditedTextHTML": "Andrew Wilson says, \"Thanks\", but if he examined the way in which we have approached this matter, he would see how open our approach is.

I have not passed judgment on specific proposals that the document may contain. I repeat that this is not a matter of unilateral dictation to the committee system. All these matters would have been subject to further discussion, ultimately with the clerks and, presumably, through them with the committee system and the Presiding Officer.

I do not say this in a partisan spirit: Alex Salmond is tilting at windmills in his attempt to make this into a big issue. He must understand the nature of this document, its helpful intent, and measure that against the enormously open way in which we have conducted, and will continue to conduct, the ministerial contributions to the committee system.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C712588", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27132, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 514.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27133, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 515.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27134, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 516.0, "DisplayOrder": 516.0, "ID": 27134, "ParentID": 27133 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "2. David McLetchie (Lothians) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 537.0, "ContributionID": 712588, "EditedText": "I would like to ask the First Minister the usual question, but if there is anyone else he would like to meet, I would be very happy to put down a question about that in future. How did you get on with the secretary of state, First Minister? To ask the Scottish Executive when the First Minister last met the Secretary of State for Scotland and what issues were discussed. (S1O705)", "EditedTextHTML": "I would like to ask the First Minister the usual question, but if there is anyone else he would like to meet, I would be very happy to put down a question about that in future. How did you get on with the secretary of state, First Minister? To ask the Scottish Executive when the First Minister last met the Secretary of State for Scotland and what issues were discussed. (S1O705)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C712591", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27132, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 514.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27133, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 515.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27134, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 516.0, "DisplayOrder": 516.0, "ID": 27134, "ParentID": 27133 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 543.0, "ContributionID": 712591, "EditedText": "As a point of clarification, if I remember correctly, any increase above the retail prices index would be ring-fenced in that way. The system would also apply to tobacco tax. An increase of 1 per cent above RPI in tobacco taxation would produce about £300 million under the Barnett formula. Therefore, this is not a small matter.At this stage, I am not prepared to commit myself about the future in the way that David McLetchie wishes. One of the great advantages of our system is that when the Scottish block benefits, this Parliament—and the Executive, which guides the Parliament to the best of its ability—has discretion about how money is spent. However, in order to reassure David McLetchie—I hope that he will take this as a genuine reassurance—I can tell him that we are very much committed to improving transport services and infrastructure in this country. In difficult financial circumstances, we are trying to reconcile the realities with other priorities, such as health and education. Sarah Boyack made some sensible dispositions the other day in her statement. However, we would like to be able to do better when circumstances allow. Certainly, public transport and transport infrastructure are a high priority for this Executive.", "EditedTextHTML": "As a point of clarification, if I remember correctly, any increase above the retail prices index would be ring-fenced in that way. The system would also apply to tobacco tax. An increase of 1 per cent above RPI in tobacco taxation would produce about £300 million under the Barnett formula. Therefore, this is not a small

matter.

At this stage, I am not prepared to commit myself about the future in the way that David McLetchie wishes. One of the great advantages of our system is that when the Scottish block benefits, this Parliament—and the Executive, which guides the Parliament to the best of its ability—has discretion about how money is spent.

However, in order to reassure David McLetchie—I hope that he will take this as a genuine reassurance—I can tell him that we are very much committed to improving transport services and infrastructure in this country. In difficult financial circumstances, we are trying to reconcile the realities with other priorities, such as health and education. Sarah Boyack made some sensible dispositions the other day in her statement. However, we would like to be able to do better when circumstances allow. Certainly, public transport and transport infrastructure are a high priority for this Executive.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C712593", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27132, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 514.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27133, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 515.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27134, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 516.0, "DisplayOrder": 516.0, "ID": 27134, "ParentID": 27133 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 547.0, "ContributionID": 712593, "EditedText": "Could be involved.", "EditedTextHTML": "Could be involved.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C712594", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27132, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 514.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27133, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 515.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27134, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 516.0, "DisplayOrder": 516.0, "ID": 27134, "ParentID": 27133 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 549.0, "ContributionID": 712594, "EditedText": "Very substantial sums of money could be involved as a result of this initiative, depending upon future tax increases. He will appreciate that many people in Scotland will be disappointed that he does not appear to be prepared to commit to the same bargain with our motorists as the Chancellor of the Exchequer has entered into down south. I move on. Mr Prescott was reported as saying that this transport fund will greatly reduce the need for revenues from tolls and taxes in England and that there were no plans to approve proposals from local councils in England and Wales before 2005. In the light of that change, does the First Minister still think that such tolls and taxes are necessary in Scotland? When does he expect our motorists to have to start paying them?", "EditedTextHTML": "Very substantial sums of money could be involved as a result of this initiative, depending upon future tax increases. He will appreciate that many people in Scotland will be disappointed that he does not appear to be prepared to commit to the same bargain with our motorists as the Chancellor of the Exchequer has entered into down south.

I move on. Mr Prescott was reported as saying that this transport fund will greatly reduce the need for revenues from tolls and taxes in England and that there were no plans to approve proposals from local councils in England and Wales before 2005. In the light of that change, does the First Minister still think that such tolls and taxes are necessary in Scotland? When does he expect our motorists to have to start paying them?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C712597", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27132, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 514.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27133, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 515.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27134, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 516.0, "DisplayOrder": 516.0, "ID": 27134, "ParentID": 27133 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 555.0, "ContributionID": 712597, "EditedText": "Of course, I accept that that is a very serious matter. I am familiar, in particular, with the Nigg yard, but I recognise that the BARMAC complex at Nigg and Ardersier is an important employer in the Highlands and Islands. The Highland-resident work force of the yards is scattered over a wide area. I think that just over 1,800 people are employed in the two yards and, if I remember rightly, a substantial number—about 60 per cent—of the total work force is employed not by BARMAC but by subcontractors of one sort or another. I am aware that job losses of 300 were announced recently. I know that a meeting will take place tomorrow morning and that Highlands and Islands Enterprise is closely in touch with the situation and takes the matter very seriously. We are dealing with an industry in which, as Fergus Ewing knows, employment is cyclical. If my memory serves me correctly, both Nigg and Ardersier have been on care and maintenance—in effect, mothballed—in the past and, fortunately, have recovered. The downturn reflects the sharp fall in oil prices in 1998. As Fergus Ewing said, fortunately there has been a revival and signs of activity are returning to the fabrication industry. I hope very much that the yards at Nigg and Ardersier, and others who are in trouble, will be able to benefit from that. As Fergus Ewing knows, the chancellor abandoned the review of petroleum revenue tax because of the industry's difficulties. In addition, certain tax changes were introduced to encourage investment, new development and new jobs. We will do all that we can, but the situation is difficult and there are no easy and immediate solutions. It will be no consolation to Fergus Ewing, or to any of his people, but—perhaps rather surprisingly—at UiE Scotland Ltd in Clydebank, on the edge of my constituency, the work force has varied between 20 to 30 people and over 2,000 people. That is one of the problems and difficulties in that industry. The Government has, as I suggested, been trying to stimulate development and to ensure that the great contribution that the North sea makes to the economy of east Scotland in particular, but also to that of Scotland as a whole, will continue.", "EditedTextHTML": "Of course, I accept that that is a very serious matter. I am familiar, in particular, with the Nigg yard, but I recognise that the BARMAC complex at Nigg and Ardersier is an important employer in the Highlands and Islands. The Highland-resident work force of the yards is scattered over a wide area. I think that just over 1,800 people are employed in the two yards and, if I remember rightly, a substantial number—about 60 per cent—of the total work force is employed not by BARMAC but by subcontractors of one sort or another.

I am aware that job losses of 300 were announced recently. I know that a meeting will take place tomorrow morning and that Highlands and Islands Enterprise is closely in touch with the situation and takes the matter very seriously.

We are dealing with an industry in which, as Fergus Ewing knows, employment is cyclical. If my memory serves me correctly, both Nigg and Ardersier have been on care and maintenance—in effect, mothballed—in the past and, fortunately, have recovered. The downturn reflects the sharp fall in oil prices in 1998. As Fergus Ewing said,

fortunately there has been a revival and signs of activity are returning to the fabrication industry. I hope very much that the yards at Nigg and Ardersier, and others who are in trouble, will be able to benefit from that.

As Fergus Ewing knows, the chancellor abandoned the review of petroleum revenue tax because of the industry's difficulties. In addition, certain tax changes were introduced to encourage investment, new development and new jobs. We will do all that we can, but the situation is difficult and there are no easy and immediate solutions. It will be no consolation to Fergus Ewing, or to any of his people, but—perhaps rather surprisingly—at UiE Scotland Ltd in Clydebank, on the edge of my constituency, the work force has varied between 20 to 30 people and over 2,000 people.

That is one of the problems and difficulties in that industry. The Government has, as I suggested, been trying to stimulate development and to ensure that the great contribution that the North sea makes to the economy of east Scotland in particular, but also to that of Scotland as a whole, will continue.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1996E124P211C712601", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27132, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 514.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27133, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 515.0, "QuestionHeading": "Landfill", "QuestionHeadingID": 27135, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 557.0, "DisplayOrder": 557.0, "ID": 27135, "ParentID": 27133 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAveety, Mr Frank", "ID": 1996, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Shettleston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Local Government", "SpeakerName": "Frank McAveety", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Local Government (Mr Frank McAveety): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 564.0, "ContributionID": 712601, "EditedText": "That was rather difficult, Sir David. I hope that there will be understanding rather than misunderstanding in my response. The Scottish Executive has made a commitment to announce a national waste strategy for Scotland by the end of the year. We will prepare that in conjunction with the Scottish Environment Protection Agency and it will be published before the end of the year. The Minister for Transport and the Environment, Sarah Boyack, has also launched a project called REMADE, which aims to develop markets for recycled materials. This will help local authorities to find markets for the waste that is recycled.", "EditedTextHTML": "That was rather difficult, Sir David. I hope that there will be understanding rather than misunderstanding in my response.

The Scottish Executive has made a commitment to announce a national waste strategy for Scotland by the end of the year. We will prepare that in conjunction with the Scottish Environment Protection Agency and it will be published before the end of the year. The Minister for Transport and the Environment, Sarah Boyack, has also launched a project called REMADE, which aims to develop markets for recycled materials. This will help local authorities to find markets for the waste that is recycled.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2112E192P495C712602", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27132, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 514.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27133, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 515.0, "QuestionHeading": "Landfill", "QuestionHeadingID": 27135, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 557.0, "DisplayOrder": 557.0, "ID": 27135, "ParentID": 27133 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacAskill, Kenny", "ID": 2112, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenny MacAskill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr MacAskill: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 566.0, "ContributionID": 712602, "EditedText": "I note that the minister mentioned misunderstanding. I presume that that was the case when he voted with the Tories on social justice yesterday. The Tories might have given me the red card, but they got the red card from the people of Scotland when they were rightly thrown out on their ear after 19 years of Thatcherism. Does Mr McAveety think that it is right that of the £40 million—and rising—that has been raised by landfill tax, 80 per cent goes to the Westminster Exchequer to reduce employers' national insurance contributions by 50p? Will not he concur that money raised in Scotland should be spent here to assist local authorities and others to advance recycling and other environmentally friendly alternatives?", "EditedTextHTML": "I note that the minister mentioned misunderstanding. I presume that that was the case when he voted with the Tories on social justice yesterday. The Tories might have given me the red card, but they got the red card from the people of Scotland when they were rightly thrown out on their ear after 19 years of Thatcherism.

Does Mr McAveety think that it is right that of the £40 million—and rising—that has been raised by landfill tax, 80 per cent goes to the Westminster Exchequer to reduce employers' national insurance contributions by 50p? Will not he concur that money raised in Scotland should be spent here to assist local authorities and others to advance recycling and other environmentally friendly alternatives?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1996E124P211C712603", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27132, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 514.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27133, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 515.0, "QuestionHeading": "Landfill", "QuestionHeadingID": 27135, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 557.0, "DisplayOrder": 557.0, "ID": 27135, "ParentID": 27133 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAveety, Mr Frank", "ID": 1996, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Shettleston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Local Government", "SpeakerName": "Frank McAveety", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McAveety: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 568.0, "ContributionID": 712603, "EditedText": "As Mr MacAskill has spent the past six months voting with the Tories on virtually every occasion, it is delightful to hear him mention that I have done so. I voted with them by accident yesterday—it was deliberation on Mr MacAskill's part that has resulted in him voting with them for the past six months. I might believe in the new politics but I ain't joining that bunch. Brothers and sisters, I do not accept that we need to adopt a partisan approach to using revenue raised in the UK. The Labour party supports the UK and a devolved Scottish Parliament. The SNP clearly rejects that. The Government will utilise UK resources where that is appropriate for Scottish needs, and we will use Scottish resources where that is appropriate for UK needs. We will work with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities through the local authorities to develop our approach to the recommendations that will emerge at the end of the year. We guarantee that we will work in conjunction with local authorities in Scotland to ensure that they meet their environmental commitments. It is easy to say it, but it is harder to deliver.", "EditedTextHTML": "As Mr MacAskill has spent the past six months voting with the Tories on virtually every occasion, it is delightful to hear him mention that I have done so. I voted with them by accident yesterday—it was deliberation on Mr MacAskill's part that has resulted in him voting with them for the past six months. I might believe in the new politics but I ain't joining that bunch.

Brothers and sisters, I do not accept that we need to adopt a partisan approach to using revenue raised in the UK. The Labour party supports the UK and a devolved Scottish Parliament. The SNP clearly rejects that. The Government will utilise UK resources where that is appropriate for Scottish needs, and we will use Scottish resources where that is appropriate for UK needs.

We will work with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities through the local authorities to develop our approach to the recommendations that will emerge at the end of the year. We guarantee that we will work in conjunction with local authorities in Scotland to ensure that they meet their environmental commitments.

It is easy to say it, but it is harder to deliver.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1820E139P227C712604", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27132, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 514.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27133, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 515.0, "QuestionHeading": "Landfill", "QuestionHeadingID": 27135, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 557.0, "DisplayOrder": 557.0, "ID": 27135, "ParentID": 27133 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Curran, Margaret", "ID": 1820, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Baillieston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Curran", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Margaret Curran (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 570.0, "ContributionID": 712604, "EditedText": "Does the minister agree that we must respond swiftly to health concerns associated with landfill sites? Can he further reassure me that SEPA will respond swiftly and effectively to the concerns that have been raised by Greater Glasgow Health Board following its investigation into Paterson's tip in the east end of Glasgow?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the minister agree that we must respond swiftly to health concerns associated with landfill sites? Can he further reassure me that SEPA will respond swiftly and effectively to the concerns that have been raised by Greater Glasgow Health Board following its investigation into Paterson's tip in the east end of Glasgow?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C712615", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Freedom of Information", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27136, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 582.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 582.0, "ID": 27136, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 594.0, "ContributionID": 712615, "EditedText": "I am grateful for the questions.Mr McLetchie's first question was, \"Why is the bill necessary at all?\" and then he proceeded to give good reasons—probably unwittingly—as to why it is. He mentioned the possibility of exemptions being widely drawn. In fact, we have tried to make the exemptions very specific; one can have relatively few exemptions if they are very widely drawn, but that can weaken the freedom of information regime. That is why we have tried to make the exemptions precise. Mr McLetchie referred to two particular cases. On the siting of the paediatric cardiac surgery unit, he will recall that when he asked about that at open question time on 30 September, I responded that the information that he was seeking fell under the category of advice. That would be one of the exemptions, but—and it is an important but—we are proposing in the consultation document that the Executive's word would not be final. If the regime were in force, Mr McLetchie would have recourse to an appeal to the commissioner; likewise with regard to questions relating to Scottish Opera. In some cases, if the exemption is content-based, a substantial prejudice test will apply, and if it is a class-based exemption, public interest will be the determining factor. Under the code of conduct that Mr McLetchie seems to think we should cling to, there would be no statutory right to access to information and the commissioner would not have the power, at the end of the day, to order disclosure if he or she considered that it was in the public interest to do so. That is a significant difference from what we propose. We are trying to ensure that there is a statutory right. I accept Mr McLetchie's point: there are many things for which we do not need statutes, and as a clear indication of that, following the publication of the code in June, I wrote to all public bodies for which this Parliament has responsibility, encouraging them to adopt an approach of openness. As the First Minister indicated in open questions earlier, the information that was made available to the Justice and Home Affairs Committee by the Scottish Prison Service on the restructuring of the prisons estate was the kind of information that I do not believe would have been made available in other places or in times past. However, the SPS believed that the information would assist the committee in its deliberations and therefore should be made available to it.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful for the questions.

Mr McLetchie's first question was, \"Why is the bill necessary at all?\" and then he proceeded to give good reasons—probably unwittingly—as to why it is. He mentioned the possibility of exemptions being widely drawn. In fact, we have tried to make the exemptions very specific; one can have relatively few exemptions if they are very widely drawn, but that can weaken the freedom of information regime. That is why we have tried to make the exemptions precise.

Mr McLetchie referred to two particular cases. On the siting of the paediatric cardiac surgery unit, he will recall that when he asked about that at open question time on 30 September, I responded that the information that he was seeking fell under the category of advice. That would be one of the exemptions, but—and it is an important but—we are proposing in the consultation document that the Executive's word would not be final. If the regime were in force, Mr McLetchie would have recourse to an appeal to the commissioner; likewise with regard to questions relating to Scottish Opera. In some cases, if the exemption is content-based, a substantial prejudice test will apply, and if it is a class-based exemption, public interest will be the determining factor.

Under the code of conduct that Mr McLetchie seems to think we should cling to, there would be no statutory right to access to information and the commissioner would not have the power, at the end of the day, to order disclosure if he or she considered that it was in the public interest to do so. That is a significant difference from what we propose. We are trying to ensure that there is a statutory right.

I accept Mr McLetchie's point: there are many things for which we do not need statutes, and as a clear indication of that, following the publication of the code in June, I wrote to all public bodies for which this Parliament has responsibility, encouraging them to adopt an approach of openness. As the First Minister indicated in open questions earlier, the information that was made available to the Justice and Home Affairs Committee by the Scottish Prison Service on the restructuring of the prisons estate was the kind of information that I do not believe would have been made available in other places or in times past. However, the SPS believed that the information would assist the committee in its deliberations and therefore should be made available to it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2090E83P266C712618", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Freedom of Information", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27136, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 582.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 582.0, "ID": 27136, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAllion, Mr John", "ID": 2090, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dundee East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John McAllion", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr John McAllion (Dundee East) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 600.0, "ContributionID": 712618, "EditedText": "I also welcome the new spirit of openness and disclosure. I look forward to the day when the words \"the honest politician\" are not met with incredulous laughter among the public. In that spirit, I ask the Deputy First Minister whether the powers of the new commissioner will include the power to order the Lord Advocate and the Crown Office to explain the reasons why they did not prosecute in certain cases. Will they include the power to require the Crown Office to make available forensic and other evidence, including police reports, on accidents and criminal incidents?", "EditedTextHTML": "I also welcome the new spirit of openness and disclosure. I look forward to the day when the words \"the honest politician\" are not met with incredulous laughter among the public.

In that spirit, I ask the Deputy First Minister whether the powers of the new commissioner will include the power to order the Lord Advocate and the Crown Office to explain the reasons why they did not prosecute in certain cases. Will they include the power to require the Crown Office to make available forensic and other evidence, including police reports, on accidents and criminal incidents?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C712619", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Freedom of Information", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27136, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 582.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 582.0, "ID": 27136, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 602.0, "ContributionID": 712619, "EditedText": "As I indicated in my earlier remarks, Crown Office prosecution of crime is examined in our consultation document. With regard to the Lord Advocate's position, as the head of the prosecution service in Scotland, that is excluded under the Scotland Act 1998. The independence of the Lord Advocate from the actings of the Executive is written into the act. In terms of the foundation act of this Parliament, it is not possible to bring him within the ambit of the legislation. Matters relating to fatal accident inquiries and police investigations are in the exempt categories. As I explained, even if there was a refusal to give a piece of information which was under the exempt categories, it would still be open to the person who was seeking that information to apply to the commissioner.", "EditedTextHTML": "As I indicated in my earlier remarks, Crown Office prosecution of crime is examined in our consultation document.

With regard to the Lord Advocate's position, as the head of the prosecution service in Scotland, that is excluded under the Scotland Act 1998. The

independence of the Lord Advocate from the actings of the Executive is written into the act. In terms of the foundation act of this Parliament, it is not possible to bring him within the ambit of the legislation.

Matters relating to fatal accident inquiries and police investigations are in the exempt categories. As I explained, even if there was a refusal to give a piece of information which was under the exempt categories, it would still be open to the person who was seeking that information to apply to the commissioner.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C712623", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Freedom of Information", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27136, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 582.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 582.0, "ID": 27136, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 610.0, "ContributionID": 712623, "EditedText": "I cannot comment on that matter, as I do not know any of the detail of the background to it. An application can be made under the current code, and if the applicants remain dissatisfied, they can take the matter to the current commissioner. We would propose that under the act, in line with the consultation document, if there was continuing opposition to disclosure by the public authority and the commissioner found either that the substantial prejudice test was not met, or that it was met but it was in the public interest to disclose the information, he or she would be able to order that disclosure. That is why Mr McLetchie is wrong when he says that we do not need such an information regime.", "EditedTextHTML": "I cannot comment on that matter, as I do not know any of the detail of the background to it. An application can be made under the current code, and if the applicants remain dissatisfied, they can take the matter to the current commissioner. We would propose that under the act, in line with the consultation document, if there was continuing opposition to disclosure by the public authority and the commissioner found either that the substantial prejudice test was not met, or that it was met but it was in the public interest to disclose the information, he or she would be able to order that disclosure. That is why Mr McLetchie is wrong when he says that we do not need such an information regime.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C712629", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Carers Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27137, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 622.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 622.0, "ID": 27137, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 623.0, "ContributionID": 712629, "EditedText": "The next item of business is a debate on motion S1M-317, in the name of Iain Gray, on the Executive's commitment to the introduction of a carers strategy, and an amendment to that motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "The next item of business is a debate on motion S1M-317, in the name of Iain Gray, on the Executive's commitment to the introduction of a carers strategy, and an amendment to that motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6232382+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1985E207P501C712634", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Carers Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27137, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 622.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 622.0, "ID": 27137, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hamilton, Mr Duncan", "ID": 1985, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Duncan Hamilton (Highlands and Islands) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 636.0, "ContributionID": 712634, "EditedText": "Mr Aitken says that the matter is not a question of finance and goes on to highlight the shortcomings in local government and the need to plough more money into rural and remote communities, with which we all agree. How is that anything but a question of finance?", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Aitken says that the matter is not a question of finance and goes on to highlight the shortcomings in local government and the need to plough more money into rural and remote communities, with which we all agree. How is that anything but a question of finance?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2185E120P328C712636", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Carers Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27137, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 622.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 622.0, "ID": 27137, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Brown, Robert", "ID": 2185, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robert Brown", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robert Brown (Glasgow) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 641.0, "ContributionID": 712636, "EditedText": "On behalf of the Liberal Democrats, I join in the plaudits to the deputy minister, who has produced a good paper and brought it before the chamber in an understated but effective fashion. The extent and impact of caring in Scotland is one of our best-kept secrets. The dependency of wheelchair users is visible, as is the existence of a physically handicapped child in the family, but when I visit homes in various capacities and talk to people, I am constantly struck by how many families are touched by the presence of a dependent relative for whom the family members have some responsibility. My impression is that 20 per cent of families might be in that position, which is perhaps right as the estimated number of direct carers is about 13 per cent of adult Scots. There is an immense burden on people who care. About half of them have provided care for more than five years. Many have to deal with administering medicine or injections and most receive no visit from professionals or volunteers. Even worse, only 6 per cent of known young carers have been assessed under the Children (Scotland) Act 1995, notwithstanding the fact that more than a third of young carers at secondary schools either miss lessons or have educational difficulties. There is clearly—and rightly—no party divide in the chamber over the imperative need drastically to improve the support and help given to carers. I welcome both the commitment to properly developed legislation on the direct right of access to services and the careful consultation through the carers legislation working group. The partnership Executive should be warmly congratulated on the extra £5 million that has been made available to carers services this year and its pledge to allocate more funding in the future if it is needed. However, no consideration of this area can avoid concern at the UK Government's long delay in responding to the Sutherland commission. The briefing document from the Carers National Association Scotland states: \"However, we believe that the lack of resolution on the issue of who pays for care will continue to undermine strategic effectiveness.\" Members have already touched on the other area of concern, which is the continued loading of local authorities with new duties while there is a year-by-year failure even to fund pay rises. No wonder there are concerns that care money is not ring-fenced. The answer to that problem is not a further restriction on local authority discretion. Nor is it the Scottish Executive's nannyish requirement to make councils supply community care plans with a coupon from local carers groups confirming their satisfaction that the council has used its share of the £10 million appropriately. The answer is adequate funding of properly elected and accountable local authorities. To do that, we need to prise the Chancellor of the Exchequer's mitts off his multi-billion-pound war chest. Unless statutory duties are linked with appropriate funding, proper services to carers and other groups will remain a noble aspiration. Although the strategy outlined today is good and worth while, it must be backed by real new money if it is to succeed in the long term. I also have concerns about young carers, to whom the deputy minister rightly gave considerable attention. They must be the priority in the general area of carers. Young people's life prospects have been severely damaged by early and heavy responsibilities of this kind. There is a need to assess young carers and for information, but this major problem needs to be addressed urgently. I am happy with the deputy minister's assurances that he will develop further research in this area. There are many good things in the strategy, not least the involvement of carers in its development. It is a healthy skeleton. I hope that the minister will be able to tell us whether his discussions with UK ministers give us hope of putting flesh on the bones, not least through implementation of the Sutherland report. Scotland prides itself on being a caring society. The document is excellent, but it is a beginning, not an end. I look forward, therefore, to further development of the strategy by the minister.", "EditedTextHTML": "On behalf of the Liberal Democrats, I join in the plaudits to the deputy minister, who has produced a good paper and brought it before the chamber in an understated but effective fashion.

The extent and impact of caring in Scotland is one of our best-kept secrets. The dependency of wheelchair users is visible, as is the existence of a physically handicapped child in the family, but when I visit homes in various capacities and talk to people, I am constantly struck by how many families are touched by the presence of a dependent relative for whom the family members have some responsibility. My impression is that 20 per cent of families might be in that position, which is perhaps right as the estimated number of direct carers is about 13 per cent of adult Scots.

There is an immense burden on people who care. About half of them have provided care for more than five years. Many have to deal with administering medicine or injections and most receive no visit from professionals or volunteers. Even worse, only 6 per cent of known young carers have been assessed under the Children (Scotland) Act 1995, notwithstanding the fact that more than a third of young carers at secondary schools either miss lessons or have educational difficulties.

There is clearly—and rightly—no party divide in the chamber over the imperative need drastically to improve the support and help given to carers. I welcome both the commitment to properly developed legislation on the direct right of access to services and the careful consultation through the carers legislation working group.

The partnership Executive should be warmly congratulated on the extra £5 million that has been made available to carers services this year and its pledge to allocate more funding in the future if it is needed. However, no consideration of this area can avoid concern at the UK Government's long delay in responding to the Sutherland commission. The briefing document from the Carers National Association Scotland states:

\"However, we believe that the lack of resolution on the issue of who pays for care will continue to undermine strategic effectiveness.\"

Members have already touched on the other area of concern, which is the continued loading of local authorities with new duties while there is a year-by-year failure even to fund pay rises. No wonder there are concerns that care money is not ring-fenced.

The answer to that problem is not a further restriction on local authority discretion. Nor is it the Scottish Executive's nannyish requirement to make councils supply community care plans with a

coupon from local carers groups confirming their satisfaction that the council has used its share of the £10 million appropriately. The answer is adequate funding of properly elected and accountable local authorities. To do that, we need to prise the Chancellor of the Exchequer's mitts off his multi-billion-pound war chest. Unless statutory duties are linked with appropriate funding, proper services to carers and other groups will remain a noble aspiration. Although the strategy outlined today is good and worth while, it must be backed by real new money if it is to succeed in the long term.

I also have concerns about young carers, to whom the deputy minister rightly gave considerable attention. They must be the priority in the general area of carers. Young people's life prospects have been severely damaged by early and heavy responsibilities of this kind. There is a need to assess young carers and for information, but this major problem needs to be addressed urgently. I am happy with the deputy minister's assurances that he will develop further research in this area.

There are many good things in the strategy, not least the involvement of carers in its development. It is a healthy skeleton. I hope that the minister will be able to tell us whether his discussions with UK ministers give us hope of putting flesh on the bones, not least through implementation of the Sutherland report.

Scotland prides itself on being a caring society. The document is excellent, but it is a beginning, not an end. I look forward, therefore, to further development of the strategy by the minister.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1775E171P452C712641", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Carers Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27137, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 622.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 622.0, "ID": 27137, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeod, Fiona", "ID": 1775, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona McLeod", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona McLeod (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 653.0, "ContributionID": 712641, "EditedText": "I, too, welcome the fact that we have highlighted young carers today and I wish to confine my remarks to that subject. I am glad that young carers are being recognised, but I am sad that we have to recognise their existence. Many of them are not carers through choice, but because the burden lands on them. That said, we have to examine some specific areas of the strategy for young carers. We have to consider the right to assessment. A commitment to a working group, which includes public consultation in 2000 but which does not rush into legislation, will not help current young carers with their problems. The right to assessment for young carers could be brought forward now, with an interim change to the guidance issued by the Scottish Executive. The Age of Legal Capacity (Scotland) Act 1991 contains a general understanding about children aged 12 and over. We could issue guidance under that general understanding rule so that, from the age of 12, young carers could ask for an immediate assessment. I ask the Executive to examine that possibility in the interim. We also have to consider local authorities' children's service plans and ensure that, at every stage, the needs of the young carers are taken into account. That includes their education and, for those in employment, the right to take time off. We have to examine how young carers go through their education—they are taking time off it now because of their caring duties. We cannot tolerate instances such as one that I heard about recently, in which a young carer attended a carers meeting and returned home to find that the truancy officer had been to find out why she was not at school. That is an unacceptable burden to put on young carers. Training for guidance teachers has already been mentioned. We need to provide it now, not to the directors of education, but to the guidance teachers. We have to consider the support that we give young carers. They need training in how to get advice, how to get information and in the physical work they do, including lifting techniques. It is sad that we have to talk about this, but we do. We must not put physical burdens on young carers by not training them correctly. I notice that the carers strategy mentions conducting training through GPs, but I do not think that general practices provide the correct forum for training young carers in lifting techniques. The strategy also mentions respite for young carers. That is a particular issue, and it does not mean a fortnight off once a year. Carers do not want that; they want time off with the family they care for. A young carer needs regular breaks, almost every day. If a young carer goes to a homework club, they should be assured that there is respite care: that someone else will care for their parent or sibling while they are at the club. We are talking about coherent, integrated services for young people. We cannot ask them to go on their own to social work, health, community education and leisure departments—we should be addressing leisure and transport issues too—they need someone to go to; an advocate to help them through. We cannot, unfortunately, get away from money, which is necessary to provide the services. East Dunbartonshire young carers project has a £5,000 grant for a one-year project. Young carers do not, however, have one-year care burdens—their burdens go on for longer. I remind the Executive again that we have to ask young carers what they need. We have to listen to what they want and support them. Ultimately, we have to give them back their childhood.", "EditedTextHTML": "I, too, welcome the fact that we have highlighted young carers today and I wish to confine my remarks to that subject.

I am glad that young carers are being recognised, but I am sad that we have to recognise their existence. Many of them are not carers through choice, but because the burden lands on them. That said, we have to examine some specific areas of the strategy for young carers.

We have to consider the right to assessment. A commitment to a working group, which includes public consultation in 2000 but which does not rush into legislation, will not help current young carers with their problems. The right to assessment for young carers could be brought forward now, with an interim change to the guidance issued by the Scottish Executive.

The Age of Legal Capacity (Scotland) Act 1991 contains a general understanding about children aged 12 and over. We could issue guidance under that general understanding rule so that, from the age of 12, young carers could ask for an immediate assessment. I ask the Executive to examine that possibility in the interim.

We also have to consider local authorities' children's service plans and ensure that, at every stage, the needs of the young carers are taken into account. That includes their education and, for those in employment, the right to take time off. We have to examine how young carers go through their education—they are taking time off it now because of their caring duties. We cannot tolerate instances such as one that I heard about recently, in which a young carer attended a carers meeting and returned home to find that the truancy officer had been to find out why she was not at school. That is an unacceptable burden to put on young carers.

Training for guidance teachers has already been mentioned. We need to provide it now, not to the directors of education, but to the guidance teachers. We have to consider the support that we give young carers. They need training in how to get advice, how to get information and in the physical work they do, including lifting techniques.

It is sad that we have to talk about this, but we do. We must not put physical burdens on young carers by not training them correctly.

I notice that the carers strategy mentions conducting training through GPs, but I do not think that general practices provide the correct forum for training young carers in lifting techniques. The strategy also mentions respite for young carers. That is a particular issue, and it does not mean a fortnight off once a year. Carers do not want that; they want time off with the family they care for. A young carer needs regular breaks, almost every day. If a young carer goes to a homework club, they should be assured that there is respite care: that someone else will care for their parent or sibling while they are at the club.

We are talking about coherent, integrated services for young people. We cannot ask them to go on their own to social work, health, community education and leisure departments—we should be addressing leisure and transport issues too—they need someone to go to; an advocate to help them through. We cannot, unfortunately, get away from money, which is necessary to provide the services. East Dunbartonshire young carers project has a £5,000 grant for a one-year project. Young carers do not, however, have one-year care burdens—their burdens go on for longer.

I remind the Executive again that we have to ask young carers what they need. We have to listen to what they want and support them. Ultimately, we have to give them back their childhood.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C712642", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Carers Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27137, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 622.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 622.0, "ID": 27137, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Richard Simpson (Ochil) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 656.0, "ContributionID": 712642, "EditedText": "I must begin by declaring that I still act as a medical adviser to foster carers in the former Central Region, now Falkirk, Stirling and Clackmannanshire. There is little doubt that much caring in families and among neighbours goes unacknowledged. The way families, neighbours and friends step in quietly and without any fuss when a crisis occurs never ceases to amaze me. We should all acknowledge that help. I remember one of my patients, a stroke victim, whose friend came in every morning before going to work to shave him and to have a chat with him. That was almost worth more than many of the therapeutic efforts that the team was undertaking. I also remember the families in my practice who, in the 1970s, volunteered to provide respite care at short notice for families with profoundly disabled children. That scheme is now incorporated within statutory provision, moving from a voluntary capacity to a statutory capacity, which is excellent. I welcome the Scottish Executive's strategy forcarers and wish to address three points that are raised in the document. First, the inclusion in the 2001 census of a question on carers will undoubtedly help us to understand the wealth of caring in society—and make us proud of it. I welcome the minister's statement that the new G-Pass GP data system can be employed in that respect—I think that it is flexible enough to do that. Secondly, I emphasise the need for patient consent to the provision of information to carers by the primary care team. Only after careful consideration should information be divulged without that consent. The one exception to that rule is when the medical information about the family of a looked-after child would be crucial to the care of that child. While current General Medical Council regulations prevent doctors from releasing that information to carers, I am discussing with interested parties the possibility of a bill to ensure that the rights of the child are paramount in this area. The need for information about the help that is available from the NHS is also important. I welcome the patients project, which is developing a strategy for effective communication. The extension of the NHS Helpline, to which the minister referred, should be linked closely to the development of the NHS Direct service and the proposals for NHS Direct must be linked to the continuing development of out-of-hours services. The services must be linked up to provide a comprehensive service to carers. Thirdly, the provision of aids and adaptations remains a vexed problem at the interface of health and social services, which must be streamlined with the rapid implementation of best practice, both for joint assessment and for joint provision. The care and repair provision also has problems: the different pots of money for different categories of housing must be combined to ensure one-stop provision. It is, quite frankly, obscene that money can remain in one agency's budget while an unmet demand remains with another agency in the same area. I can give the minister detailed examples from my constituency, if that would be helpful. We must also address the vital issues that face foster carers. The UK standards have been published. We must value and support our foster carers if we are to create the best parenting for looked-after children—previously known as children in care. Research from John Trisiliotis shows that too many foster carers are leaving the system. I believe that we must move rapidly to a salaried service. In the meantime, in keeping with the new proposals for pensions for carers in general, we should apply immediately pension rights to the fees and expenses of foster carers. Ten per cent of foster carers who left the service did so because of a lack of respite—one returns repeatedly to this issue—and the minister has recognised that by providing new money, which is fundamental to the provision of respite care. Finally, we must recognise that family structures are changing. The homophobic regulation that prevents households with two adults of the same gender from offering foster care is, frankly, no longer appropriate and should be removed. We know that good outcomes for children's mental health depends on the quality of the relationship between the adults who care for them— irrespective of gender—and not on the structure of the household. I welcome the Executive's caring strategy as an excellent first step.", "EditedTextHTML": "I must begin by declaring that I still act as a medical adviser to foster carers in the former Central Region, now Falkirk, Stirling and Clackmannanshire.

There is little doubt that much caring in families and among neighbours goes unacknowledged. The way families, neighbours and friends step in quietly and without any fuss when a crisis occurs never ceases to amaze me. We should all acknowledge that help.

I remember one of my patients, a stroke victim, whose friend came in every morning before going to work to shave him and to have a chat with him. That was almost worth more than many of the therapeutic efforts that the team was undertaking. I also remember the families in my practice who, in the 1970s, volunteered to provide respite care at short notice for families with profoundly disabled children. That scheme is now incorporated within statutory provision, moving from a voluntary capacity to a statutory capacity, which is excellent.

I welcome the Scottish Executive's strategy for

carers and wish to address three points that are raised in the document.

First, the inclusion in the 2001 census of a question on carers will undoubtedly help us to understand the wealth of caring in society—and make us proud of it. I welcome the minister's statement that the new G-Pass GP data system can be employed in that respect—I think that it is flexible enough to do that.

Secondly, I emphasise the need for patient consent to the provision of information to carers by the primary care team. Only after careful consideration should information be divulged without that consent. The one exception to that rule is when the medical information about the family of a looked-after child would be crucial to the care of that child. While current General Medical Council regulations prevent doctors from releasing that information to carers, I am discussing with interested parties the possibility of a bill to ensure that the rights of the child are paramount in this area.

The need for information about the help that is available from the NHS is also important. I welcome the patients project, which is developing a strategy for effective communication. The extension of the NHS Helpline, to which the minister referred, should be linked closely to the development of the NHS Direct service and the proposals for NHS Direct must be linked to the continuing development of out-of-hours services. The services must be linked up to provide a comprehensive service to carers.

Thirdly, the provision of aids and adaptations remains a vexed problem at the interface of health and social services, which must be streamlined with the rapid implementation of best practice, both for joint assessment and for joint provision. The care and repair provision also has problems: the different pots of money for different categories of housing must be combined to ensure one-stop provision. It is, quite frankly, obscene that money can remain in one agency's budget while an unmet demand remains with another agency in the same area. I can give the minister detailed examples from my constituency, if that would be helpful.

We must also address the vital issues that face foster carers. The UK standards have been published. We must value and support our foster carers if we are to create the best parenting for looked-after children—previously known as children in care. Research from John Trisiliotis shows that too many foster carers are leaving the system. I believe that we must move rapidly to a salaried service.

In the meantime, in keeping with the new proposals for pensions for carers in general, we should apply immediately pension rights to the fees and expenses of foster carers. Ten per cent of foster carers who left the service did so because of a lack of respite—one returns repeatedly to this issue—and the minister has recognised that by providing new money, which is fundamental to the provision of respite care.

Finally, we must recognise that family structures are changing. The homophobic regulation that prevents households with two adults of the same gender from offering foster care is, frankly, no longer appropriate and should be removed. We know that good outcomes for children's mental health depends on the quality of the relationship between the adults who care for them— irrespective of gender—and not on the structure of the household.

I welcome the Executive's caring strategy as an excellent first step.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1882E175P456C712643", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Carers Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27137, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 622.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 622.0, "ID": 27137, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ingram, Adam", "ID": 1882, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Adam Ingram", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Adam Ingram (South of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 659.0, "ContributionID": 712643, "EditedText": "I welcome the opportunity to debate this extremely important issue in Parliament. I will use my time to draw attention to the needs of the valuable people who care for those with mental illness. I would like to make three points. First, I wish to flag up the difficulties that exist in identifying carers of the mentally ill. Secondly, I wish to highlight the different needs of carers of people with mental illness from other carers. Thirdly, I wish to draw attention to the fact that the special needs for this group of carers are not met and not properly addressed in the strategy document. One in four people in Scotland will suffer from mental illness at some point in their lives and 14 per cent of the adult population have significant mental health problems, yet many people who suffer from mental health problems never have contact with the health service and many are cared for in their own homes by carers, family members or friends. The extent to which that happens is difficult to estimate. Mental illness is a taboo subject; many will admit neither to being cared for, nor to being the carer. Many carers suffer alone or in silence. Margaret Paton, of Trust: a Carers Connection, which operates in Ayrshire, has experience of just that situation. Her adult daughter was diagnosed as a paranoid schizophrenic at the age of 21. That is when Margaret's nightmare began. She went to hell and back in an attempt to get her daughter the help she needed, in a community where her daughter's condition was misunderstood and stigmatised. So horrific was her experience that she has gone to extraordinary lengths to ensure that no one else has to go through it. Singlehandedly, she set up a support group at Ailsa hospital in Ayrshire, which meets once a month. That has now extended to six support groups throughout Ayrshire. An office in Ailsa hospital has been set aside for Margaret, in which she deals with carers' problems. She does all that entirely voluntarily, providing a support service and advocacy for people who receive no support from elsewhere, least of all from the public agencies. Carers of mentally ill patients save the Government £280 million every year through the services they provide, yet local authorities provide only £54 million for people who are recovering from mental illness; that is less than 20 per cent of the estimated need. Unofficial carers provide the rest of the care. Nowhere in the national carers strategy are carers of the mentally ill, and their special needs, referred to specifically. Carers of mentally ill people have different needs and different priorities. Those to whom I have spoken are not looking for benefits or respite care. They want information and support, recognition of their loved ones' illnesses and medical care to address them. They want their loved ones to see the same psychiatrist and to have continuity of care; they want the chance for relations to build up between patient and psychiatrist. They want information to flow freely between patient, carer, psychiatrist and GP. In short, they want rights and they want their opinions to be considered. The national carers strategy, like many of the Executive's announcements, is a step in the right direction, but there is not enough money to fund it and there are important omissions from it. Mental illness can affect one in four of us. Many of those who are affected are cared for at home. Carers of the mentally ill have different needs from other carers, and people such as Margaret Paton deserve our recognition and support.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the opportunity to debate this extremely important issue in Parliament. I will use my time to draw attention to the needs of the valuable people who care for those with mental illness.

I would like to make three points. First, I wish to flag up the difficulties that exist in identifying carers of the mentally ill. Secondly, I wish to highlight the different needs of carers of people with mental illness from other carers. Thirdly, I wish to draw attention to the fact that the special needs for this group of carers are not met and not properly addressed in the strategy document.

One in four people in Scotland will suffer from mental illness at some point in their lives and 14 per cent of the adult population have significant mental health problems, yet many people who suffer from mental health problems never have contact with the health service and many are cared for in their own homes by carers, family members or friends. The extent to which that happens is difficult to estimate. Mental illness is a taboo subject; many will admit neither to being cared for, nor to being the carer.

Many carers suffer alone or in silence. Margaret Paton, of Trust: a Carers Connection, which operates in Ayrshire, has experience of just that situation. Her adult daughter was diagnosed as a paranoid schizophrenic at the age of 21. That is when Margaret's nightmare began. She went to hell and back in an attempt to get her daughter the help she needed, in a community where her daughter's condition was misunderstood and stigmatised. So horrific was her experience that she has gone to extraordinary lengths to ensure that no one else has to go through it. Singlehandedly, she set up a support group at Ailsa

hospital in Ayrshire, which meets once a month. That has now extended to six support groups throughout Ayrshire. An office in Ailsa hospital has been set aside for Margaret, in which she deals with carers' problems. She does all that entirely voluntarily, providing a support service and advocacy for people who receive no support from elsewhere, least of all from the public agencies.

Carers of mentally ill patients save the Government £280 million every year through the services they provide, yet local authorities provide only £54 million for people who are recovering from mental illness; that is less than 20 per cent of the estimated need. Unofficial carers provide the rest of the care.

Nowhere in the national carers strategy are carers of the mentally ill, and their special needs, referred to specifically. Carers of mentally ill people have different needs and different priorities. Those to whom I have spoken are not looking for benefits or respite care. They want information and support, recognition of their loved ones' illnesses and medical care to address them. They want their loved ones to see the same psychiatrist and to have continuity of care; they want the chance for relations to build up between patient and psychiatrist. They want information to flow freely between patient, carer, psychiatrist and GP. In short, they want rights and they want their opinions to be considered.

The national carers strategy, like many of the Executive's announcements, is a step in the right direction, but there is not enough money to fund it and there are important omissions from it.

Mental illness can affect one in four of us. Many of those who are affected are cared for at home. Carers of the mentally ill have different needs from other carers, and people such as Margaret Paton deserve our recognition and support.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1865E219P509C712646", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Carers Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27137, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 622.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 622.0, "ID": 27137, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "White, Sandra", "ID": 1865, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sandra White", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Sandra White (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 666.0, "ContributionID": 712646, "EditedText": "On a point of order. Might it be noted when we have important debates such as this in future that ministers should not make statements prior to the debate? People who wanted to be included in this debate have not been. The elderly have not been mentioned and neither have various other aspects of community care.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. Might it be noted when we have important debates such as this in future that ministers should not make statements prior to the debate? People who wanted to be included in this debate have not been. The elderly have not been mentioned and neither have various other aspects of community care.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1826E199P351C712648", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Carers Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27137, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 622.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 622.0, "ID": 27137, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Smith, Margaret", "ID": 1826, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Smith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Margaret Smith (Edinburgh West) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 671.0, "ContributionID": 712648, "EditedText": "I welcome the minister's comprehensive speech and, like all the other members who have spoken today, the strategy for carers. It is good that we have moved the hidden army of 500,000 carers to centre stage today. I welcome Mr Gray's comments that that is where they will remain—certainly throughout the life of this Administration. That hidden army allows us to have a semblance of community care in this country. Some have attempted to quantify care in terms of money—that is a crude way of doing it. However, Bill Aitken's comments, which related the issue to the social care budget, showed starkly how much we rely on carers and where we would be without them. People throughout Scotland are struggling to care for their relatives, friends and— as Richard Simpson said—their neighbours. Those people have their own lives to live. They have livings to earn. Children who are carers have rights as children—the right to education and the right to be able to go out to play. People have the right to leisure. That is why respite care is fundamental; I am pleased that the Executive is finding extra money, particularly for respite care. Other members have said that respite is not about having one week or two weeks off. Respite means having regular time away. That will make all the difference, so I am pleased about what has been announced today. Many carers are struggling on their own with little or no assistance from public services. We must identify carers much earlier in the process, support them and learn from them what their needs are and how we can assist them. Through personal experience as a representative, and through speaking to people at surgeries, I know that caring has an impact on the health of many carers. That is why assessment of them, as well as assessment of the people for whom they are caring, is essential. That is particularly the case for those who are caring for people with degenerative illnesses such as Alzheimer's disease or mental health problems. I know from constituents that such factors have a real impact on the health of carers. If they try to take respite care, they often feel guilty, which we should do something about. It is crucial that carers' involvement in the services has been moved to centre stage, that the minister has met carers groups and representatives before today's debate, that carers will have a say in the services that are delivered by local authorities with the extra money that has been announced today, and that, in the coming months, carers will be involved in the working group that will produce draft legislation. I welcome those elements of best practice; I hope that they will be seen in action. Carers tell me that they want to have a say in the services that are available to them and to the people for whom they care. Of course they want access to greater resources, but some of the things that they want are very simple. They want their voices to be heard and they want access to information. As Iain Gray said, they do not want to have to stumble on the best information and care only when they are lucky enough to bump into somebody. Like other members, I welcome the fact that we are highlighting the role of young carers. As an Edinburgh councillor for several years, I came into contact with the Edinburgh Young Carers Project. We should be doing everything that we can to support projects such as that throughout Scotland. There is no point in tackling the problems that an individual has if we are allowing their carer to slip into a lifetime of difficulties with education and the ability to hold down employment in later life. It is important to remember that the support that carers need can be simple. Many carers have to give medication, lift people or give some other form of health care, as the chief medical officer's bulletin in July rightly highlighted. That may be where primary care people can play their part. Like other members, I welcome the strategy. It is only a first step, but it is a good first step. Many of the things that the minister and others have said today, and the way in which they have been said, are to be applauded and supported.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the minister's comprehensive speech and, like all the other members who have spoken today, the strategy for carers.

It is good that we have moved the hidden army of 500,000 carers to centre stage today. I welcome Mr Gray's comments that that is where they will remain—certainly throughout the life of this Administration. That hidden army allows us to have a semblance of community care in this country.

Some have attempted to quantify care in terms of money—that is a crude way of doing it. However, Bill Aitken's comments, which related the issue to the social care budget, showed starkly how much we rely on carers and where we would be without them. People throughout Scotland are struggling to care for their relatives, friends and— as Richard Simpson said—their neighbours. Those people have their own lives to live. They have livings to earn. Children who are carers have rights as children—the right to education and the right to be able to go out to play.

People have the right to leisure. That is why respite care is fundamental; I am pleased that the Executive is finding extra money, particularly for respite care. Other members have said that respite is not about having one week or two weeks off. Respite means having regular time away. That will make all the difference, so I am pleased about what has been announced today.

Many carers are struggling on their own with little or no assistance from public services. We must identify carers much earlier in the process, support them and learn from them what their needs are and how we can assist them.

Through personal experience as a representative, and through speaking to people at surgeries, I know that caring has an impact on the health of many carers. That is why assessment of them, as well as assessment of the people for whom they are caring, is essential. That is particularly the case for those who are caring for people with degenerative illnesses such as Alzheimer's disease or mental health problems. I know from constituents that such factors have a real impact on the health of carers. If they try to take respite care, they often feel guilty, which we should do something about.

It is crucial that carers' involvement in the services has been moved to centre stage, that the minister has met carers groups and representatives before today's debate, that carers will have a say in the services that are delivered by local authorities with the extra money that has been announced today, and that, in the coming months, carers will be involved in the working group that will produce draft legislation. I welcome those elements of best practice; I hope that they will be seen in action.

Carers tell me that they want to have a say in the services that are available to them and to the people for whom they care. Of course they want access to greater resources, but some of the things that they want are very simple. They want their voices to be heard and they want access to information. As Iain Gray said, they do not want to have to stumble on the best information and care only when they are lucky enough to bump into somebody.

Like other members, I welcome the fact that we are highlighting the role of young carers. As an Edinburgh councillor for several years, I came into contact with the Edinburgh Young Carers Project. We should be doing everything that we can to support projects such as that throughout Scotland. There is no point in tackling the problems that an individual has if we are allowing their carer to slip into a lifetime of difficulties with education and the ability to hold down employment in later life.

It is important to remember that the support that carers need can be simple. Many carers have to give medication, lift people or give some other form of health care, as the chief medical officer's bulletin in July rightly highlighted. That may be where primary care people can play their part.

Like other members, I welcome the strategy. It is only a first step, but it is a good first step. Many of the things that the minister and others have said today, and the way in which they have been said, are to be applauded and supported.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2033E106P139C712654", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Carers Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27137, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 622.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 622.0, "ID": 27137, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gray, Iain", "ID": 2033, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Pentlands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Iain Gray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Iain Gray: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 685.0, "ContributionID": 712654, "EditedText": "Will Mr Hamilton give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr Hamilton give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C712660", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Carers Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27137, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 622.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 622.0, "ID": 27137, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 698.0, "ContributionID": 712660, "EditedText": "No, I will not take another intervention. It is not possible to give money to everything. To suggest that we can is a false promise. We are doubling the money to local authorities for carers. That is a doubling of real resources to £10 million a year—not once, but every year. That is real money and resources year after year. I am not interested in false promises; I am interested in real results, which is exactly what we are delivering. I recognise that, as many members have said, the needs of individual carers vary. When we talk about carers, it is important that we realise that they are not a homogeneous group. Carers are a diverse range of people with diverse needs, which vary over time and according to circumstances. It is important that, to meet those needs, our policies and services are flexible and responsive. That means that we must listen to carers when they tell us what their needs are. We must hear what they say and act on it. That approach—of listening to the people who use the services—is a theme that runs across our community care agenda and our health agenda. We will make progress in that way in the years ahead. Usually, people do not ask for the moon; as many members have said, they want practical measures. They are not listened to, however, so that does not happen. The work that Iain Gray will do in the months and years ahead, working closely with carers associations, will aim to change that. I will now put our proposals in a wider context. It was not so long ago that a British Prime Minister said that there was no such thing as society— Interruption. This Executive is serious—we will say this again and again—in its belief not just that there is such a thing as society, but that we must cultivate and nurture that society and build on our strong collective traditions.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I will not take another intervention.

It is not possible to give money to everything. To suggest that we can is a false promise. We are doubling the money to local authorities for carers. That is a doubling of real resources to £10 million a year—not once, but every year. That is real money and resources year after year. I am not interested in false promises; I am interested in real results, which is exactly what we are delivering.

I recognise that, as many members have said, the needs of individual carers vary. When we talk about carers, it is important that we realise that they are not a homogeneous group. Carers are a diverse range of people with diverse needs, which vary over time and according to circumstances. It is important that, to meet those needs, our policies and services are flexible and responsive. That means that we must listen to carers when they tell us what their needs are. We must hear what they say and act on it. That approach—of listening to the people who use the services—is a theme that runs across our community care agenda and our health agenda. We will make progress in that way in the years ahead.

Usually, people do not ask for the moon; as many members have said, they want practical measures. They are not listened to, however, so that does not happen. The work that Iain Gray will do in the months and years ahead, working closely with carers associations, will aim to change that.

I will now put our proposals in a wider context. It was not so long ago that a British Prime Minister said that there was no such thing as society— [Interruption.] This Executive is serious—we will say this again and again—in its belief not just that there is such a thing as society, but that we must cultivate and nurture that society and build on our strong collective traditions.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C712665", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27138, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 704.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 704.0, "ID": 27138, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 710.0, "ContributionID": 712665, "EditedText": "There will be a division.", "EditedTextHTML": "There will be a division.

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" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C712671", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27138, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 704.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 704.0, "ID": 27138, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 720.0, "ContributionID": 712671, "EditedText": "There will be a division.", "EditedTextHTML": "There will be a division.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712672", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27138, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 704.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 704.0, "ID": 27138, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 722.0, "ContributionID": 712672, "EditedText": "FOR Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)AGAINST Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)

AGAINST

Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712676", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27138, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 704.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 704.0, "ID": 27138, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 728.0, "ContributionID": 712676, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C712679", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27138, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 704.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 704.0, "ID": 27138, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 733.0, "ContributionID": 712679, "EditedText": "The result of the division is: For 63, Against 16, Abstentions 27.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result of the division is: For 63, Against 16, Abstentions 27.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712681", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27138, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 704.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 704.0, "ID": 27138, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 736.0, "ContributionID": 712681, "EditedText": "Resolved,", "EditedTextHTML": "Resolved,

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712682", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27138, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 704.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 704.0, "ID": 27138, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 737.0, "ContributionID": 712682, "EditedText": "That the Parliament supports the Executive's policies on law and order and the principles and initiatives set out in the Partnership for Scotland agreement and the priorities identified in the Programme for Government and in particular the measures being taken to combat crime and drugs, to support the victims of crime, to encourage stronger links between the police and the communities in which they operate, to tackle the problem of persistent re- offending, to rehabilitate offenders through training, education and work and through alternatives to custody, and in putting in place effective community safety strategies.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament supports the Executive's policies on law and order and the principles and initiatives set out in the Partnership for Scotland agreement and the priorities identified in the Programme for Government and in particular the measures being taken to combat crime and drugs, to support the victims of crime, to encourage stronger links between the police and the communities in which they operate, to tackle the problem of persistent re- offending, to rehabilitate offenders through training, education and work and through alternatives to custody, and in putting in place effective community safety strategies.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C712687", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27138, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 704.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 704.0, "ID": 27138, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 745.0, "ContributionID": 712687, "EditedText": "The result of the division is: For 28, Against 79, Abstentions 0.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result of the division is: For 28, Against 79, Abstentions 0.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C712695", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Kintyre Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27139, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 752.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 752.0, "ID": 27139, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon (Argyll and Bute) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 758.0, "ContributionID": 712695, "EditedText": "As all the members exit, I must say how nice it is to play to a packed house. I welcome the opportunity to bring the problems facing the Kintyre peninsula to the attention of this Parliament, if not all the parliamentarians. Many problems face a peninsula such as Kintyre. It is far from markets—Campbeltown is 150 miles from the central belt. It suffers from the problems of high transport costs that have been exacerbated in recent years by the fuel price escalator. We welcome the decision to shelve the increases in the fuel price escalator, but the damage has been done. The area has suffered from a depression in its traditional industries that has caused much financial hardship.", "EditedTextHTML": "As all the members exit, I must say how nice it is to play to a packed house. I welcome the opportunity to bring the problems facing the Kintyre peninsula to the attention of this Parliament, if not all the parliamentarians.

Many problems face a peninsula such as Kintyre. It is far from markets—Campbeltown is 150 miles from the central belt. It suffers from the problems of high transport costs that have been exacerbated in recent years by the fuel price escalator. We welcome the decision to shelve the increases in the fuel price escalator, but the damage has been done. The area has suffered from a depression in its traditional industries that has caused much financial hardship.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C712697", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Kintyre Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27139, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 752.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 752.0, "ID": 27139, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 762.0, "ContributionID": 712697, "EditedText": "As Fergus will know, the Liberal party has argued consistently that rural areas should be compensated for the constant increases in the fuel price escalator, which was designed to deal with congestion in major towns and cities. We support the principle of that money being returned to rural areas. I will mention some of the area's economic indicators. Unemployment statistics for 1998 put Campbeltown some 36 per cent above the Scottish average. South Kintyre has suffered the greatest population decrease in Argyll and Bute: 15 per cent between 1991 and 1997. A recent Highlands and Islands Enterprise strengths, weaknesses, opportunities and threats analysis classifies Kintyre as a fragile area. On a scale of 1 to 5, with 1 being the highest, Highlands and Islands Enterprise rates the area's development needs at 1 and its need development support at 2. At the last count, around 26 shops in Campbeltown were lying vacant. Those indicators demonstrate the scale of the problem that we face. The agriculture sector has seen a 30 per cent decline in prices. It suffers from extra regulation and cheap imports and the agricultural business improvement scheme fiasco has exacerbated the current problems and knocked confidence once again, as we heard last night. The fishing industry has been hit by the never- ending scallop ban. We are taking action there: some of the Highlands and Islands MSPs are demanding that we have a meeting to decide on a long-term strategy on the issue. Another serious problem is infectious salmon anaemia. The timber industry is important to the area and provides a significant number of jobs. The industry was identified by Scottish Enterprise as a potential key sector in the next two decades. Timber production is set to increase by 50 per cent in the next five years. However, haulage costs add 25 to 33 per cent to the cost of Scottish timber delivered to the processors and the industry is struggling to compete with imports from Scandinavia and the Baltic countries, which undercut their prices by some 25 to 30 per cent because of the strong pound. Almost 200 tourism-related jobs have disappeared in the area in the last four years, partly due to the strong pound, which has caused a downturn in foreign visitors. That situation is worsened in an area such as Kintyre that suffers from a seasonal employment pattern. Before going on to talk about some solutions, I want to talk about the impact of large shopping chains on our rural communities. I live in a small town on the Isle of Bute called Rothesay. Since Safeway opened up, there has been a major downturn in the number of viable shops in the town. The Scottish Executive needs to consider that. There is not only a major Tesco in Campbeltown, but a Co-op outlet as well. Some estimates show that £100,000 per week flows out of the town—every single week, 52 weeks of the year. When it comes to planning, especially if we mean community planning, that issue has to be tackled. Such large supermarkets rip the heart out of many of our small towns. I highlight the debate on the Irish ferry. The peninsula does not have its problems to seek, yet the introduction of the Campbeltown to Ballycastle ferry service was a major opportunity to help regenerate the area's economy. There was a vision that if the peace process in Northern Ireland paid off, we would see an influx of visitors through that gateway. That would not only assist Kintyre, but the benefit would flow on to the Highlands. It would be the gateway to the Highlands for much of the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland. Those who are visiting the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland would see it as a link to mainland UK. Yet there has been debate about the future of the ferry service. Will it continue? The public purse has been used to the tune of £4 million to invest in setting up infrastructure. It is vital that that service continues. Three years is not long enough to make any clear judgments about whether the service will work in the long term. It needs time to develop and it needs to be marketed. The peace process, which we all hope will end up with a resolution and devolution in Northern Ireland—we hope in the near future—could be the catalyst to make that service work. A large amount, £150,000, of public money has been invested in advertising the service this year. It has shown results: a significant increase in passengers in July and August, which shows that throughput and traffic numbers can be increased if the service is properly marketed. Areas such as Kintyre look to the Scottish Parliament to put their concerns at the top of the political agenda. That is why this debate is happening here tonight. Over many years, much of rural Scotland has felt disfranchised by the Westminster political system; it is up to us to demonstrate that we can address some of these key issues. There are opportunities. On wind power, for example, I ask the minister to assure us that the Scottish Executive expresses support for renewable energy and, above all, does everything possible to help investors come to Machrihanish and locate a factory there. We are in competition with the Republic of Ireland; it is a commercial decision. Kintyre is looking for political will and expression of support to ensure that the decision comes our way. I suggest to the minister that, in apportioning the £220 million of European money, geographical targeting should be used as one of the key indicators, and ask that Kintyre be recognised as a key area that needs investment. The new tourism strategy must address the key challenges facing the industry in areas such as Kintyre, where quality and lengthening of the season are key issues. I ask for the minister's support for that type of approach. It is crucial that the Executive does everything it can to ensure the Irish ferry continues to operate. I seek an assurance from the minister on that.", "EditedTextHTML": "As Fergus will know, the Liberal party has argued consistently that rural areas should be compensated for the constant increases in the fuel price escalator, which was designed to deal with congestion in major towns and cities. We support the principle of that money being returned to rural areas.

I will mention some of the area's economic indicators. Unemployment statistics for 1998 put Campbeltown some 36 per cent above the Scottish average. South Kintyre has suffered the greatest population decrease in Argyll and Bute: 15 per cent between 1991 and 1997. A recent Highlands and Islands Enterprise strengths,

weaknesses, opportunities and threats analysis classifies Kintyre as a fragile area. On a scale of 1 to 5, with 1 being the highest, Highlands and Islands Enterprise rates the area's development needs at 1 and its need development support at 2. At the last count, around 26 shops in Campbeltown were lying vacant. Those indicators demonstrate the scale of the problem that we face.

The agriculture sector has seen a 30 per cent decline in prices. It suffers from extra regulation and cheap imports and the agricultural business improvement scheme fiasco has exacerbated the current problems and knocked confidence once again, as we heard last night.

The fishing industry has been hit by the never- ending scallop ban. We are taking action there: some of the Highlands and Islands MSPs are demanding that we have a meeting to decide on a long-term strategy on the issue. Another serious problem is infectious salmon anaemia.

The timber industry is important to the area and provides a significant number of jobs. The industry was identified by Scottish Enterprise as a potential key sector in the next two decades. Timber production is set to increase by 50 per cent in the next five years. However, haulage costs add 25 to 33 per cent to the cost of Scottish timber delivered to the processors and the industry is struggling to compete with imports from Scandinavia and the Baltic countries, which undercut their prices by some 25 to 30 per cent because of the strong pound.

Almost 200 tourism-related jobs have disappeared in the area in the last four years, partly due to the strong pound, which has caused a downturn in foreign visitors. That situation is worsened in an area such as Kintyre that suffers from a seasonal employment pattern.

Before going on to talk about some solutions, I want to talk about the impact of large shopping chains on our rural communities. I live in a small town on the Isle of Bute called Rothesay. Since Safeway opened up, there has been a major downturn in the number of viable shops in the town. The Scottish Executive needs to consider that. There is not only a major Tesco in Campbeltown, but a Co-op outlet as well. Some estimates show that £100,000 per week flows out of the town—every single week, 52 weeks of the year. When it comes to planning, especially if we mean community planning, that issue has to be tackled. Such large supermarkets rip the heart out of many of our small towns.

I highlight the debate on the Irish ferry. The peninsula does not have its problems to seek, yet the introduction of the Campbeltown to Ballycastle ferry service was a major opportunity to help regenerate the area's economy. There was a vision that if the peace process in Northern Ireland paid off, we would see an influx of visitors through that gateway. That would not only assist Kintyre, but the benefit would flow on to the Highlands. It would be the gateway to the Highlands for much of the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland. Those who are visiting the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland would see it as a link to mainland UK.

Yet there has been debate about the future of the ferry service. Will it continue? The public purse has been used to the tune of £4 million to invest in setting up infrastructure. It is vital that that service continues. Three years is not long enough to make any clear judgments about whether the service will work in the long term. It needs time to develop and it needs to be marketed.

The peace process, which we all hope will end up with a resolution and devolution in Northern Ireland—we hope in the near future—could be the catalyst to make that service work. A large amount, £150,000, of public money has been invested in advertising the service this year. It has shown results: a significant increase in passengers in July and August, which shows that throughput and traffic numbers can be increased if the service is properly marketed.

Areas such as Kintyre look to the Scottish Parliament to put their concerns at the top of the political agenda. That is why this debate is happening here tonight. Over many years, much of rural Scotland has felt disfranchised by the Westminster political system; it is up to us to demonstrate that we can address some of these key issues.

There are opportunities. On wind power, for example, I ask the minister to assure us that the Scottish Executive expresses support for renewable energy and, above all, does everything possible to help investors come to Machrihanish and locate a factory there. We are in competition with the Republic of Ireland; it is a commercial decision. Kintyre is looking for political will and expression of support to ensure that the decision comes our way.

I suggest to the minister that, in apportioning the £220 million of European money, geographical targeting should be used as one of the key indicators, and ask that Kintyre be recognised as a key area that needs investment. The new tourism strategy must address the key challenges facing the industry in areas such as Kintyre, where quality and lengthening of the season are key issues. I ask for the minister's support for that type of approach.

It is crucial that the Executive does everything it can to ensure the Irish ferry continues to operate. I seek an assurance from the minister on that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C712699", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Kintyre Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27139, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 752.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 752.0, "ID": 27139, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 767.0, "ContributionID": 712699, "EditedText": "Given that the fundamental problem facing agriculture is the strength of sterling, will Mr McGrigor support all the other political parties, which are committed to making progress towards the euro as one solution of the problems that he highlights?", "EditedTextHTML": "Given that the fundamental problem facing agriculture is the strength of sterling, will Mr McGrigor support all the other political parties, which are committed to making progress towards the euro as one solution of the problems that he highlights?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2066E64P88C712700", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Kintyre Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27139, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 752.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 752.0, "ID": 27139, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McGrigor, Jamie", "ID": 2066, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie McGrigor", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McGrigor: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 769.0, "ContributionID": 712700, "EditedText": "That is irrelevant to this problem. A fall in interest rates would be much more to the point. Is it impossible to persuade Argyll and the Islands Enterprise to take some notice of the agricultural sector and its importance to Kintyre? The present chaotic debacle concerning ABIS must be resolved, as farmers have put out thousands of pounds in good faith, only to be told that there is now no money to support the applications. There is hardly time to mention Kintyre's fishermen, but I believe that its scallop fishermen, whose boats have been tied up due to the ban, are due some retrospective compensation. As I keep saying, the key to prosperity in the Highlands and Islands is much cheaper fuel, good roads and better access. We need a good infrastructure for businesses to survive and expand. When one considers what it costs people to fill up their cars and lorries in Kintyre, one realises the disadvantage that businesses face from the word go. The paltry £66 million that this Government has committed to expenditure on roads is insultingly useless to rural Scotland. It is estimated that there are 120,000 tonnes of timber waiting to come out of Kintyre. Why not take it by coastal shipping, which would save millions of pounds on damage to roads? Kintyre, and Campbeltown in particular, used to be a thriving tourist area. It has a mild climate, some beautiful beaches and a very famous golf course at Machrihanish. The problem now is that it is too expensive for tourists to go there. Income has dropped, and new investment is badly needed to upgrade facilities for tourists. It is up to the Scottish Tourist Board and Argyll and the Islands Enterprise to come up with some ideas to achieve that. The situation in Campbeltown is dire. I imagine that incomes average little more than £120 a week. Twenty-seven shops have recently closed and nearly all the hotels are for sale. If it were not for the Jaeger textile factory, employment would be even lower. The future of that mainstay of the Kintyre economy must be assured. There is an exciting possibility that there will be a major investment in wind farming, in the renewable energy sector in Scotland. That would be a tremendous boost to the area, as it would create, perhaps, 100 jobs. However, as George Lyon has said, the company that is involved cannot get an answer from the Executive on what its policy is on wind farming in the Scottish Highlands. Unless the company gets some assurance that there will be a market for its turbines, this valuable possibility may be lost. I ask the Government not to let that happen. Good access to and from Kintyre is paramount. The ferry link to Ballycastle in Northern Ireland is especially important to people on both sides of the water. With the present operator withdrawing, it is imperative that another is found as soon as possible to continue a link that is so vital to trade and tourism.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is irrelevant to this problem. A fall in interest rates would be much more to the point.

Is it impossible to persuade Argyll and the Islands Enterprise to take some notice of the agricultural sector and its importance to Kintyre? The present chaotic debacle concerning ABIS must be resolved, as farmers have put out thousands of pounds in good faith, only to be told that there is now no money to support the applications.

There is hardly time to mention Kintyre's fishermen, but I believe that its scallop fishermen, whose boats have been tied up due to the ban, are due some retrospective compensation.

As I keep saying, the key to prosperity in the Highlands and Islands is much cheaper fuel, good roads and better access. We need a good infrastructure for businesses to survive and expand. When one considers what it costs people to fill up their cars and lorries in Kintyre, one realises the disadvantage that businesses face from the word go. The paltry £66 million that this Government has committed to expenditure on roads is insultingly useless to rural Scotland.

It is estimated that there are 120,000 tonnes of timber waiting to come out of Kintyre. Why not take it by coastal shipping, which would save millions of pounds on damage to roads?

Kintyre, and Campbeltown in particular, used to be a thriving tourist area. It has a mild climate, some beautiful beaches and a very famous golf course at Machrihanish. The problem now is that it is too expensive for tourists to go there. Income has dropped, and new investment is badly needed to upgrade facilities for tourists. It is up to the Scottish Tourist Board and Argyll and the Islands Enterprise to come up with some ideas to achieve that.

The situation in Campbeltown is dire. I imagine that incomes average little more than £120 a week. Twenty-seven shops have recently closed and nearly all the hotels are for sale. If it were not for the Jaeger textile factory, employment would be even lower. The future of that mainstay of the Kintyre economy must be assured.

There is an exciting possibility that there will be a major investment in wind farming, in the renewable energy sector in Scotland. That would be a tremendous boost to the area, as it would create, perhaps, 100 jobs. However, as George Lyon has said, the company that is involved cannot get an answer from the Executive on what its policy is on wind farming in the Scottish Highlands. Unless the company gets some assurance that there will be a market for its turbines, this valuable possibility may be lost. I ask the Government not to let that happen.

Good access to and from Kintyre is paramount. The ferry link to Ballycastle in Northern Ireland is especially important to people on both sides of the water. With the present operator withdrawing, it is imperative that another is found as soon as possible to continue a link that is so vital to trade and tourism.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1985E207P501C712701", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Kintyre Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27139, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 752.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 752.0, "ID": 27139, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hamilton, Mr Duncan", "ID": 1985, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Duncan Hamilton (Highlands and Islands) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 772.0, "ContributionID": 712701, "EditedText": "I congratulate George Lyon on securing this debate. I echo what has been said about the potential for the Kintyre economy. I hope that the minister will acknowledge what we have heard about the depths in which the economy finds itself at the moment. I will speak briefly about the potential way out of the current crisis. First, we must consider the possibilities that exist within the people of Campbeltown. I am acutely aware of how many of them are coming forward with innovative and enterprising ideas. In particular, they are taking advantage of the challenges of information technology and e-commerce as a way of overcoming the physical barriers of which everybody is well aware. A good example of a recent project in which people are generating economic activity and dynamic thinking is the Quarry Green project, with which I am sure members are familiar. The business community and the people of Campbeltown are looking for several guarantees if the ferry service is taken on by Caledonian MacBrayne—that is what the SNP wants. We need to know that the marketing will be sustained and that the services will also be sustained, that the ferry will not be wheeched off to the Isle of Man halfway through the year. That would destroy any sense that the service could be relied upon by either tourists or local business. Most important, there needs to be proper public consultation. The people of Campbeltown do not feel that they have been brought into the process; they feel that they have been moulded by events. If a publicly owned company is to be involved in the route, let us ensure that the mistakes of the past are not repeated. There is another aspect that George Lyon did not mention. There are continuing problems with the road network and transport. The A83 issue dominated the elections in Argyll and Bute. The problems of getting to Campbeltown and of accessing the Kintyre peninsula are not yet over. I have a reply from the Minister for Transport and the Environment which suggests that the improvements that we have asked for are too expensive at the moment. I urge Mr Morrison to go back to Ms Boyack and ask her to reconsider that. If the Executive really believes in bolstering the economy of Kintyre, it must consider the context of improved ferry links, guaranteed links with Ireland and ways to unleash the potential of the peninsula. Campbeltown is not a lost cause, by any means. The potential is there. Let us tap it.", "EditedTextHTML": "I congratulate George Lyon on securing this debate. I echo what has been said about the potential for the Kintyre economy. I hope that the minister will acknowledge what we have heard about the depths in which the economy finds itself at the moment.

I will speak briefly about the potential way out of the current crisis. First, we must consider the possibilities that exist within the people of Campbeltown. I am acutely aware of how many of them are coming forward with innovative and enterprising ideas. In particular, they are taking advantage of the challenges of information technology and e-commerce as a way of overcoming the physical barriers of which everybody is well aware. A good example of a recent project in which people are generating economic activity and dynamic thinking is the Quarry Green project, with which I am sure members are familiar.

The business community and the people of Campbeltown are looking for several guarantees if the ferry service is taken on by Caledonian MacBrayne—that is what the SNP wants. We need to know that the marketing will be sustained and that the services will also be sustained, that the ferry will not be wheeched off to the Isle of Man halfway through the year. That would destroy any sense that the service could be relied upon by either tourists or local business. Most important, there needs to be proper public consultation. The people of Campbeltown do not feel that they have been brought into the process; they feel that they have been moulded by events. If a publicly owned company is to be involved in the route, let us ensure that the mistakes of the past are not repeated.

There is another aspect that George Lyon did not mention. There are continuing problems with the road network and transport. The A83 issue dominated the elections in Argyll and Bute. The problems of getting to Campbeltown and of accessing the Kintyre peninsula are not yet over. I have a reply from the Minister for Transport and the Environment which suggests that the improvements that we have asked for are too expensive at the moment. I urge Mr Morrison to go back to Ms Boyack and ask her to reconsider that. If the Executive really believes in bolstering the economy of Kintyre, it must consider the context of improved ferry links, guaranteed links with Ireland and ways to unleash the potential of the peninsula. Campbeltown is not a lost cause, by any means. The potential is there. Let us tap it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1840E82P158C712702", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Kintyre Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27139, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 752.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 752.0, "ID": 27139, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macmillan, Maureen", "ID": 1840, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Maureen Macmillan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Maureen Macmillan (Highlands and Islands) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 775.0, "ContributionID": 712702, "EditedText": "As George Lyon has said, the economy of Kintyre is very fragile and is made more so by the uncertainty of the link with Ballycastle. I want to talk about another area of the economy that needs some input from the Executive. Last week, Rhoda Grant and I visited Aquascot's salmon processing factory in Alness. We discussed with its directors their fish farming interests in Orkney, Ross-shire and Argyll. One of the things that interested me in particular was the fact that they were farming turbot in Kintyre, at Tayinloan. It was pointed out that the waters of Kintyre are perfect for farming turbot. The gulf stream makes the sea conditions just warm enough for turbot to thrive. Turbot is a high-quality fish, and those of Kintyre are of a consistent high quality and command a high price on the market.", "EditedTextHTML": "As George Lyon has said, the economy of Kintyre is very fragile and is made more so by the uncertainty of the link with Ballycastle.

I want to talk about another area of the economy that needs some input from the Executive. Last week, Rhoda Grant and I visited Aquascot's salmon processing factory in Alness. We discussed with its directors their fish farming interests in Orkney, Ross-shire and Argyll. One of the things that interested me in particular was the fact that they were farming turbot in Kintyre, at Tayinloan. It was pointed out that the waters of Kintyre are perfect for farming turbot. The gulf stream makes the sea conditions just warm enough for turbot to thrive. Turbot is a high-quality fish, and those of Kintyre are of a consistent high quality and command a high price on the market.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1840E82P158C712704", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Kintyre Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27139, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 752.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 752.0, "ID": 27139, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macmillan, Maureen", "ID": 1840, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Maureen Macmillan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Maureen Macmillan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 779.0, "ContributionID": 712704, "EditedText": "I am just about to address the VHS issue. Aquascot is experimenting with a hatchery at Tayinloan. In Alness, Aquascot employs about 30 people: fish processors, administrative staff, quality control staff and production managers. If Aquascot can get the right conditions, it would consider a similar development in Kintyre, processing turbot for the supermarkets and adding value to the product. The right conditions are important. Before the fish farming company can take the risk of stocking up their fish farms, it must be assured that there will not be a repetition of the infectious salmon anaemia fiasco, which affected salmon farming. VHS is a virus in the wild which affects white fish, but has no effect on humans. The Executive must ensure that Europe does not classify VHS as an exotic disease; it must be treated by control, rather than by eradication measures. Otherwise, it will be impossible for the aquaculture industry to raise capital for development using their fish stock as collateral and a potentially multimillion pound industry will be stillborn. Demand for fish is growing and growing and, as we know, quotas for white fish have been cut. A demand is there that can only be met by white fish. I call on the Executive to do all that it can to ensure that such developments—of great potential to the Highlands and Islands economy—are not strangled at birth by European regulations. Farmed white fish can bring jobs and income to fragile areas such as Kintyre, which is specially suited to the industry. We must do all we can to ensure that such investment is possible.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am just about to address the VHS issue. Aquascot is experimenting with a hatchery at Tayinloan. In Alness, Aquascot employs about 30 people: fish processors, administrative staff, quality control staff and production managers. If Aquascot can get the right conditions, it would consider a similar development in Kintyre, processing turbot for the supermarkets and adding value to the product.

The right conditions are important. Before the fish farming company can take the risk of stocking up their fish farms, it must be assured that there will not be a repetition of the infectious salmon anaemia fiasco, which affected salmon farming. VHS is a virus in the wild which affects white fish, but has no effect on humans. The Executive must ensure that Europe does not classify VHS as an exotic disease; it must be treated by control, rather than by eradication measures. Otherwise, it will be impossible for the aquaculture industry to raise capital for development using their fish stock as collateral and a potentially multimillion pound industry will be stillborn.

Demand for fish is growing and growing and, as we know, quotas for white fish have been cut. A demand is there that can only be met by white fish. I call on the Executive to do all that it can to ensure that such developments—of great potential to the Highlands and Islands economy—are not strangled at birth by European regulations. Farmed white fish can bring jobs and income to fragile areas such as Kintyre, which is specially suited to the industry. We must do all we can to ensure that such investment is possible.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1889E118P162C712712", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Kintyre Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27139, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 752.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 752.0, "ID": 27139, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morrison, Mr Alasdair", "ID": 1889, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Western Isles" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morrison", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Morrison: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 797.0, "ContributionID": 712712, "EditedText": "Duncan, I have 30 seconds left.", "EditedTextHTML": "Duncan, I have 30 seconds left.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1889E118P162C712714", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Kintyre Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27139, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 752.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 752.0, "ID": 27139, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morrison, Mr Alasdair", "ID": 1889, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Western Isles" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morrison", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Morrison: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 801.0, "ContributionID": 712714, "EditedText": "I will take a very brief intervention.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will take a very brief intervention.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.6388616+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C712596", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27132, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 514.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27133, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 515.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27134, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 516.0, "DisplayOrder": 516.0, "ID": 27134, "ParentID": 27133 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fergus Ewing (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 553.0, "ContributionID": 712596, "EditedText": "Is the First Minister aware that an announcement of major job losses is widely expected to be made tomorrow by BARMAC, the management of the oil fabrication yards at Nigg and Ardersier? Is he also aware that the chief executive of Highlands and Islands Enterprise estimated that those job losses—direct and indirect—would number 3,156 and that that constitutes a major crisis in the Highlands? Given that the devastation has been widely predicted, will the First Minister say what steps have been taken to combat the crisis? In particular, will he appoint a task force? Finally, given that the oil price is $26 a barrel and that oil companies have received tax breaks, will he meet or has he met—MEMBERS: \"Come on.\". The question of 3,156 jobs is very serious. Has the First Minister, or the Secretary of State for Scotland, met the directors of the oil companies, who could have been asked to provide jobs to protect the highly skilled work force at the yards?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is the First Minister aware that an announcement of major job losses is widely expected to be made tomorrow by BARMAC, the management of the oil fabrication yards at Nigg and Ardersier? Is he also aware that the chief executive of Highlands and Islands Enterprise estimated that those job losses—direct and indirect—would number 3,156 and that that constitutes a major crisis in the Highlands?

Given that the devastation has been widely predicted, will the First Minister say what steps have been taken to combat the crisis? In particular, will he appoint a task force? Finally, given that the oil price is $26 a barrel and that oil companies have received tax breaks, will he meet or has he met—[MEMBERS: \"Come on.\"]. The question of 3,156 jobs is very serious. Has the First Minister, or the Secretary of State for Scotland, met the directors of the oil companies, who could have been asked to provide jobs to protect the highly skilled work force at the yards?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:00:52.6390172+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1756E184P464C712462", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Grahame, Christine", "ID": 1756, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Christine Grahame", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 279.0, "ContributionID": 712462, "EditedText": "I will deal first with police and crime. Lots of statistics have been thrown about. Statistics are not sterile; they are important. There is no doubt that crime has increased. We have heard statistics from various areas. In 1998-99, the number of crimes in the Borders increased by 450, 25 per cent of which were crimes of vandalism. The Scottish national party supports the use of CCTV, but it has a limited role in ensuring protection in rural areas such as the Borders. The number of police has risen, but according to today's edition of The Herald, by only four in three years, which is hardly good. Police numbers fluctuate. The Scottish Police Federation has projected that, next year, there will be a shortfall of 1,000 police officers. Colleagues have raised concerns that police officers are suffering an increase in stress. I will come to stress among prison officers later. I refer to the Scottish Police Federation's letter of 4 October, which reveals that the work load for police officers \"has increased by about one third . . . Half of all inspectors and chief inspectors, reported that more than 40% of their work used to be done by the rank above. . . . For officers who have supervisory responsibilities . . . the average increase in the total number of officers supervised is 11%.\" They are a force under siege. That is reflected in\"a consequential decrease in the well-being of officers, as expressed by measures of stress and aspects of sickness, injury and dissatisfaction.\" I will come to the other arm of enforcement—the Scottish Prison Service—in a moment, but the picture from the Scottish Police Federation is obviously not a happy one. Concern about the victims of crime was raised eloquently by Linda Fabiani and Michael Matheson. Linda gave a figure of 20,000. I can see no problems for this Parliament going full steam ahead with a victims charter, which would provide a valuable framework and a national standard for victims throughout Scotland. From my own experience, I can give examples of witnesses—the victim is often the prime witness—coming across the accused wandering about the streets when out on bail. The victim does not know that he is out on bail. They can also come across the convicted criminal out on parole. They do not know about that either: they do not know what goes on in court when the heads get together at the table and the prosecution and defence are discussing plea bargaining, while, at the back of the court, the prime witness, who is also the prosecution witness, has no part in it. They will find that, after the court is adjourned, nothing has been said to them. That is a disgraceful way to treat people, and it must be dealt with as a matter of urgency. I cannot see why we are not getting on with that. I want to refer to prisons, because they are such an urgent concern—the Justice and Home Affairs Committee has just dealt with prison matters. Overcrowding is not a simple issue. Tony Cameron made that plain, as did Mr Clive Fairweather at a previous meeting. It is not just a case of having 6,000 prisoners and 6,000 places. It depends on the kind of prisoners and the kind of place. The problem is that cutting the number of prisons takes out slack. If there were any problems with the prison population or if there were any disturbances, I would have concerns, as would other members of the Justice and Home Affairs Committee, that there would be no place to which to decant the prisoners concerned. There would also be no places for certain kinds of prisoner. The chief executive of the Scottish Prison Service could not answer that point. He was not sure about it.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will deal first with police and crime. Lots of statistics have been thrown about. Statistics are not sterile; they are important. There is no doubt that crime has increased. We have heard statistics from various areas. In 1998-99, the number of crimes in the Borders increased by 450, 25 per cent of which were crimes of vandalism. The Scottish national party supports the use of CCTV, but it has a limited role in ensuring protection in rural areas such as the Borders.

The number of police has risen, but according to today's edition of The Herald, by only four in three years, which is hardly good. Police numbers fluctuate. The Scottish Police Federation has projected that, next year, there will be a shortfall of 1,000 police officers. Colleagues have raised concerns that police officers are suffering an increase in stress. I will come to stress among prison officers later.

I refer to the Scottish Police Federation's letter of 4 October, which reveals that the work load for police officers

\"has increased by about one third . . . Half of all inspectors and chief inspectors, reported that more than 40% of their work used to be done by the rank above. . . . For officers who have supervisory responsibilities . . . the average increase in the total number of officers supervised is 11%.\"

They are a force under siege. That is reflected in

\"a consequential decrease in the well-being of officers, as expressed by measures of stress and aspects of sickness, injury and dissatisfaction.\"

I will come to the other arm of enforcement—the Scottish Prison Service—in a moment, but the picture from the Scottish Police Federation is obviously not a happy one.

Concern about the victims of crime was raised eloquently by Linda Fabiani and Michael Matheson. Linda gave a figure of 20,000. I can

see no problems for this Parliament going full steam ahead with a victims charter, which would provide a valuable framework and a national standard for victims throughout Scotland.

From my own experience, I can give examples of witnesses—the victim is often the prime witness—coming across the accused wandering about the streets when out on bail. The victim does not know that he is out on bail. They can also come across the convicted criminal out on parole. They do not know about that either: they do not know what goes on in court when the heads get together at the table and the prosecution and defence are discussing plea bargaining, while, at the back of the court, the prime witness, who is also the prosecution witness, has no part in it. They will find that, after the court is adjourned, nothing has been said to them. That is a disgraceful way to treat people, and it must be dealt with as a matter of urgency. I cannot see why we are not getting on with that.

I want to refer to prisons, because they are such an urgent concern—the Justice and Home Affairs Committee has just dealt with prison matters. Overcrowding is not a simple issue. Tony Cameron made that plain, as did Mr Clive Fairweather at a previous meeting. It is not just a case of having 6,000 prisoners and 6,000 places. It depends on the kind of prisoners and the kind of place. The problem is that cutting the number of prisons takes out slack. If there were any problems with the prison population or if there were any disturbances, I would have concerns, as would other members of the Justice and Home Affairs Committee, that there would be no place to which to decant the prisoners concerned. There would also be no places for certain kinds of prisoner.

The chief executive of the Scottish Prison Service could not answer that point. He was not sure about it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:01:13.4086808+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1756E184P464C712464", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Grahame, Christine", "ID": 1756, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Christine Grahame", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Christine Grahame: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 283.0, "ContributionID": 712464, "EditedText": "I am happy to take that intervention on the open prisons, which I will come to, with particular reference to the reasons for the closure of Penninghame prison. There are many possible reasons for all kinds of reorganisation of the Prison Service, but simply to save money is not one of them. I have problems with the way in which it is being done and with the way in which the selection has been made. The reasons for overcrowding are complex and varied. We have had different figures: the projected figures given for two months ago and the figures now. Even the chief executive of the Prison Service said that he was relying on statisticians, and that things might change. On slopping out, I am trying to make the distinction in my head between a target and an aim. We were told that the aim—not target—on ending slopping out is now deferred. It is a Victorian practice, which ought to be high on the list of matters to be dealt with. It has been deferred because of the £13 million in cuts. On staff morale, I quote from the Official Report of that committee meeting. When Lyndsay McIntosh asked Derek Turner of the Scottish Prison Officers Association about staff morale, he said: \"The staff are devastated. They feel that they have worked very hard over the past four years to achieve the restructuring that has taken place in the Prison Service. That was a tremendously painful process at the start. The staff did not like it, but they were confronted with the choice of going through the staffing structure review or potentially facing market testing. It was Hobson's choice.\"—Official Report, Justice and Home Affairs Committee, 23 November 1999; c 467. The other essential arm of crime prevention is in a state of gravely low morale. There was an example of a prison officer who had recently moved with his family to Dungavel. He uprooted everyone—what will his position be? Prison officers have to work with good will in the Prison Service. The Executive is in grave difficulties with the Prison Service, and I have great concerns about that. I also wish to address the fact that there was an increase in the purchase of bunk beds, which heralds the possibility of prisoners having to double up. How will prisoners who are now in single cells react when they find two or three others pushed into their cells? That is a real problem for the Executive. I will try to rattle on and address the issue of prison closures. As Alex Fergusson said, Penninghame is a highly successful prison. Why it is not fully occupied has been addressed—open prisons are not an easy option for prisoners. They find them quite hard, as they have to learn to rely on their own resources. The prison is also essential to the community—I know, as I lived in Newton Stewart for 15 years—and to the economy of the area. Penninghame is not an expensive prison. The figures have been mentioned—the costs are about £17,000 per prisoner, as opposed to £26,000, which is the Scottish Prison Service's cost per prisoner. I do not know what criteria were used in the decision to close Penninghame. I have dealt with Dungavel—why a prison that dealt so well with drugs reduction and rehabilitation was dealt the blow of closure requires explanation. The Scottish National party welcomes the drugs enforcement agency, but not at a cost to the Prison Service. I wish to give an example of the reality of drug rehabilitation. I visited Low Moss as a member of the Justice and Home Affairs Committee. The prison governor told me that he and two of his officers spent two days just picking up drug packets that had been thrown over the fence. As it is a low-security prison, it does not have a high fence and is surrounded by wasteland. The prison has a successful unit, Alba House. It is also a tough unit, as it is based on self-referral. However, it can take only 10 people, whereas there are hundreds of prisoners at Low Moss who are not in the unit and who are in a cycle of returning to prison. Even worse, what kind of secure accommodation is given to prisoners who have gone through the tough regime at Alba House upon their release? Often, they return to the environment that they were in before prison. I will finish by dealing with alternatives to custody. A long time ago, a senior member of the prosecution service said on television that prisoners could be divided into the bad, the mad and the sad. I have concerns that the mad and the sad are put in prison as if it were a waste bin—that is a way of dealing with them. Without making a direct link to Cornton Vale, I am terribly glad that Dr Simpson raised the issue. While we may want to move away from custody, more women who come from very sad backgrounds are being put into Cornton Vale, and the figures are increasing. The Executive must start to deal with that issue now. Many fine words have been spoken today. Everyone wants improvements in society, but we want action—and action needs funding. I ask the Executive to address that point.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am happy to take that intervention on the open prisons, which I will come to, with particular reference to the reasons for the closure of Penninghame prison.

There are many possible reasons for all kinds of reorganisation of the Prison Service, but simply to save money is not one of them. I have problems with the way in which it is being done and with the way in which the selection has been made.

The reasons for overcrowding are complex and varied. We have had different figures: the projected figures given for two months ago and the figures now. Even the chief executive of the Prison Service said that he was relying on statisticians, and that things might change.

On slopping out, I am trying to make the distinction in my head between a target and an aim. We were told that the aim—not target—on ending slopping out is now deferred. It is a Victorian practice, which ought to be high on the list of matters to be dealt with. It has been deferred because of the £13 million in cuts.

On staff morale, I quote from the Official Report of that committee meeting. When Lyndsay McIntosh asked Derek Turner of the Scottish Prison Officers Association about staff morale, he said:

\"The staff are devastated. They feel that they have worked very hard over the past four years to achieve the restructuring that has taken place in the Prison Service. That was a tremendously painful process at the start. The staff did not like it, but they were confronted with the choice of going through the staffing structure review or potentially facing market testing. It was Hobson's choice.\"—[Official Report, Justice and Home Affairs Committee, 23 November 1999; c 467.]

The other essential arm of crime prevention is in a state of gravely low morale.

There was an example of a prison officer who had recently moved with his family to Dungavel. He uprooted everyone—what will his position be? Prison officers have to work with good will in the Prison Service. The Executive is in grave difficulties with the Prison Service, and I have great concerns about that.

I also wish to address the fact that there was an increase in the purchase of bunk beds, which heralds the possibility of prisoners having to double up. How will prisoners who are now in single cells react when they find two or three others pushed into their cells? That is a real problem for the Executive.

I will try to rattle on and address the issue of prison closures. As Alex Fergusson said, Penninghame is a highly successful prison. Why it is not fully occupied has been addressed—open prisons are not an easy option for prisoners. They find them quite hard, as they have to learn to rely on their own resources. The prison is also essential to the community—I know, as I lived in Newton Stewart for 15 years—and to the economy of the area.

Penninghame is not an expensive prison. The figures have been mentioned—the costs are about £17,000 per prisoner, as opposed to £26,000,

which is the Scottish Prison Service's cost per prisoner. I do not know what criteria were used in the decision to close Penninghame. I have dealt with Dungavel—why a prison that dealt so well with drugs reduction and rehabilitation was dealt the blow of closure requires explanation.

The Scottish National party welcomes the drugs enforcement agency, but not at a cost to the Prison Service. I wish to give an example of the reality of drug rehabilitation. I visited Low Moss as a member of the Justice and Home Affairs Committee. The prison governor told me that he and two of his officers spent two days just picking up drug packets that had been thrown over the fence. As it is a low-security prison, it does not have a high fence and is surrounded by wasteland.

The prison has a successful unit, Alba House. It is also a tough unit, as it is based on self-referral. However, it can take only 10 people, whereas there are hundreds of prisoners at Low Moss who are not in the unit and who are in a cycle of returning to prison. Even worse, what kind of secure accommodation is given to prisoners who have gone through the tough regime at Alba House upon their release? Often, they return to the environment that they were in before prison.

I will finish by dealing with alternatives to custody. A long time ago, a senior member of the prosecution service said on television that prisoners could be divided into the bad, the mad and the sad. I have concerns that the mad and the sad are put in prison as if it were a waste bin—that is a way of dealing with them. Without making a direct link to Cornton Vale, I am terribly glad that Dr Simpson raised the issue. While we may want to move away from custody, more women who come from very sad backgrounds are being put into Cornton Vale, and the figures are increasing. The Executive must start to deal with that issue now.

Many fine words have been spoken today. Everyone wants improvements in society, but we want action—and action needs funding. I ask the Executive to address that point.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:01:13.4086808+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1773E197P503C712536", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27112, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 352.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27113, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 353.0, "QuestionHeading": "Housing", "QuestionHeadingID": 27121, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 419.0, "DisplayOrder": 419.0, "ID": 27121, "ParentID": 27113 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hyslop, Fiona", "ID": 1773, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona Hyslop", "SpeakerDisplayName": "8. Fiona Hyslop (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 420.0, "ContributionID": 712536, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what progress has been made in its programme of tackling dampness in Scotland's housing stock. (S1O-715) The Deputy Minister for Local Government (Mr Frank McAveety): We will be spending £38 million over the next three years to provide insulation packages for more than 75,000 homes. In line with our social inclusion agenda, we will concentrate on the elderly and others on low incomes. Together with the investment that we are putting into new housing partnerships and through the housing revenue account, that should result in a substantial reduction in the number of Scottish houses that suffer from dampness.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what progress has been made in its programme of tackling dampness in Scotland's housing stock. (S1O-715) The Deputy Minister for Local Government (Mr Frank McAveety): We will be spending £38 million over the next three years to provide insulation packages for more than 75,000 homes. In line with our social inclusion agenda, we will concentrate on the elderly and others on low incomes. Together with the investment that we are putting into new housing partnerships and through the housing revenue account, that should result in a substantial reduction in the number of Scottish houses that suffer from dampness.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:01:13.4086808+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2133E222P520C712375", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Matheson, Michael", "ID": 2133, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Matheson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Matheson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 85.0, "ContributionID": 712375, "EditedText": "I thank Mr Gallie for clarifying that, although I do not think that most people in Scotland will welcome it. We welcome the incorporation of the European convention on human rights into our criminal justice system. The convention is not the problem. The problem is the advice and the manner in which the Executive has handled the implications of the convention. Responsibility lies with the Executive. Jim Wallace correctly pointed out that Clive Fairweather, in the annual report on prisons, recognised that some prisons could be closed. However, Clive Fairweather's views were predicated on the assumption that the prison population would remain stable. Unfortunately, the evidence is that the prison population will rise, which brings into question the thinking behind the Executive's closure programme. I want to refer to our amendment and, in particular, the issue of policing. For several years, pressure has been growing on police budgets. The problem for our police service is twofold: financing and resourcing. While the pressure on budgets has increased, recorded crime has also increased in constabulary areas across Scotland. It is increasing in Strathclyde. It is up by 9 per cent in Central, and by 3 per cent in Grampian, Lothian and Borders, and Northern. Only Tayside, and Dumfries and Galloway have shown a decrease. It would be wrong to give the impression that things are improving or will improve in the short term. The concerns of the Scottish Police Federation have been mentioned. Earlier this month, it gave a clear warning that the Government's proposed budget for policing in Scotland in 2000-01—£741.9 million—means that there will be a cut in real terms. I quote James Fraser, chairman of the Scottish Police Federation, who said: \"We are in a dire situation as far as the police budget is concerned, and if that situation is not greatly improved very quickly then it will become a crisis.\" We should listen to that voice. Although members might argue that it is a cash increase in real terms, effectively, it is a cut in real expenditure. We politicians can easily get caught up in the argument about figures and the allocation of budgets, but we must also remember that the individuals who are responsible for policing our streets, day in, day out, are under ever increasing pressure, because of growing problems of manpower, demands on services and sickness levels. The most recent annual report by the chief inspector of constabulary highlighted that the sickness level in the police force is increasing; it is currently running at more than 7 per cent. There is little doubt that one of the major contributing factors to the growing problem of sick leave is stress-related illness. The real danger, with decreasing numbers of officers, rising crime and more police officers on sick leave, is that greater pressure is placed on officers still in service. I refer to the Government's reallocation of £13 million of the Prison Service budget. Not only is our police service under considerable pressure, but as a result of that decision there will be increasing pressure on prisons and prison officers. The announcement on the closure of Penninghame and Dungavel prisons, alongside the reallocation of that funding, is seen by those working in the Scottish Prison Service as a betrayal of their efforts. That is nothing more than a short-term approach to dealing with the prison problem in Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank Mr Gallie for clarifying that, although I do not think that most people in Scotland will welcome it.

We welcome the incorporation of the European convention on human rights into our criminal justice system. The convention is not the problem. The problem is the advice and the manner in which the Executive has handled the implications of the convention. Responsibility lies with the Executive.

Jim Wallace correctly pointed out that Clive Fairweather, in the annual report on prisons, recognised that some prisons could be closed. However, Clive Fairweather's views were predicated on the assumption that the prison population would remain stable. Unfortunately, the evidence is that the prison population will rise, which brings into question the thinking behind the Executive's closure programme.

I want to refer to our amendment and, in particular, the issue of policing. For several years, pressure has been growing on police budgets. The problem for our police service is twofold: financing

and resourcing. While the pressure on budgets has increased, recorded crime has also increased in constabulary areas across Scotland. It is increasing in Strathclyde. It is up by 9 per cent in Central, and by 3 per cent in Grampian, Lothian and Borders, and Northern. Only Tayside, and Dumfries and Galloway have shown a decrease. It would be wrong to give the impression that things are improving or will improve in the short term.

The concerns of the Scottish Police Federation have been mentioned. Earlier this month, it gave a clear warning that the Government's proposed budget for policing in Scotland in 2000-01—£741.9 million—means that there will be a cut in real terms. I quote James Fraser, chairman of the Scottish Police Federation, who said:

\"We are in a dire situation as far as the police budget is concerned, and if that situation is not greatly improved very quickly then it will become a crisis.\"

We should listen to that voice. Although members might argue that it is a cash increase in real terms, effectively, it is a cut in real expenditure.

We politicians can easily get caught up in the argument about figures and the allocation of budgets, but we must also remember that the individuals who are responsible for policing our streets, day in, day out, are under ever increasing pressure, because of growing problems of manpower, demands on services and sickness levels.

The most recent annual report by the chief inspector of constabulary highlighted that the sickness level in the police force is increasing; it is currently running at more than 7 per cent. There is little doubt that one of the major contributing factors to the growing problem of sick leave is stress-related illness. The real danger, with decreasing numbers of officers, rising crime and more police officers on sick leave, is that greater pressure is placed on officers still in service.

I refer to the Government's reallocation of £13 million of the Prison Service budget. Not only is our police service under considerable pressure, but as a result of that decision there will be increasing pressure on prisons and prison officers. The announcement on the closure of Penninghame and Dungavel prisons, alongside the reallocation of that funding, is seen by those working in the Scottish Prison Service as a betrayal of their efforts. That is nothing more than a short-term approach to dealing with the prison problem in Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:31.1569345+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2133E222P520C712379", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Matheson, Michael", "ID": 2133, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Matheson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Matheson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 93.0, "ContributionID": 712379, "EditedText": "I refer to the comments about Clive Fairweather's earlier statements, which were that his views are predicated on the basis of reducing numbers. However, the evidence that has been given to the Justice and Home Affairs Committee is that prisoner numbers will increase. On that basis, I have grave concerns as to whether the closure programme will cause overcrowding. It is also clear from the Scottish Prison Service press release that the service anticipates that there will be overcrowding as a result of the reallocation of funding and the closure of two prisons. The consequences of the Executive's actions will be job losses in the Prison Service, which will be another blow to the morale of prison staff. An issue that seems to have gone somewhat unnoticed during that change in policy is the mothballing of the special unit at Peterhead prison. I am sure that no one in the chamber would disagree with getting drug dealers off the street, but we also have to accept our responsibility to ensure that prisoners who have a drug problem are provided with the support and rehabilitation that they need. The mothballing of that unit will stop the rehabilitation work that is being undertaken. I refer members to the views of the Grampian Addiction Problem Service, which has a close working relationship with the unit at Peterhead. In a recent press release, it stated: \"At present many of the prisoners housed within the unit, are as much victims of drug misuse as they are the perpetrators.\" The statement continued:\"Without rehabilitation, such as that supplied at the unit, released prisoners will undoubtedly quickly re-offend.\" Where is the long-term thinking in dealing with the drug problem in Scotland? This is purely a case of robbing Peter to pay Paul.", "EditedTextHTML": "I refer to the comments about Clive Fairweather's earlier statements, which were that his views are predicated on the basis of reducing numbers. However, the evidence that has been given to the Justice and Home Affairs Committee is that prisoner numbers will increase. On that basis, I have grave concerns as to whether the closure programme will cause overcrowding.

It is also clear from the Scottish Prison Service press release that the service anticipates that there will be overcrowding as a result of the reallocation of funding and the closure of two prisons. The consequences of the Executive's actions will be job losses in the Prison Service, which will be another blow to the morale of prison staff.

An issue that seems to have gone somewhat unnoticed during that change in policy is the mothballing of the special unit at Peterhead prison. I am sure that no one in the chamber would disagree with getting drug dealers off the street, but we also have to accept our responsibility to ensure that prisoners who have a drug problem are provided with the support and rehabilitation that they need. The mothballing of that unit will stop the rehabilitation work that is being undertaken.

I refer members to the views of the Grampian Addiction Problem Service, which has a close working relationship with the unit at Peterhead. In a recent press release, it stated:

\"At present many of the prisoners housed within the unit, are as much victims of drug misuse as they are the perpetrators.\"

The statement continued:

\"Without rehabilitation, such as that supplied at the unit, released prisoners will undoubtedly quickly re-offend.\"

Where is the long-term thinking in dealing with the drug problem in Scotland? This is purely a case of robbing Peter to pay Paul.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:31.1569345+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2180E179P471C712415", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lochhead, Richard", "ID": 2180, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Lochhead", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Richard Lochhead (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 169.0, "ContributionID": 712415, "EditedText": "Does the member agree that there are not enough youth facilities in Scotland? One helpful thing that the Executive could do would be to carry out an audit of such facilities throughout Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the member agree that there are not enough youth facilities in Scotland? One helpful thing that the Executive could do would be to carry out an audit of such facilities throughout Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:31.1569345+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2110E214P424C712384", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gibson, Kenneth", "ID": 2110, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenneth Gibson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Gibson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 104.0, "ContributionID": 712384, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:18:48.0221515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1857E136P222C712394", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeill, Pauline", "ID": 1857, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Kelvin" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Pauline McNeill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Pauline McNeill: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 125.0, "ContributionID": 712394, "EditedText": "No, I do not have enough time.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I do not have enough time.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:18:48.0221515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2110E214P424C712399", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gibson, Kenneth", "ID": 2110, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenneth Gibson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Gibson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 136.0, "ContributionID": 712399, "EditedText": "No, I will not. I do not give way to people who do not give way to others. I want to focus on the difficulties faced by Strathclyde police because of the severe funding constraints imposed by the Executive and by the First Minister in his previous incarnation as Secretary of State for Scotland. On 4 November, I asked the Deputy First Minister whether he agreed \"that inadequate police resources lead to increased crime, especially public order offences and street crime\", and whether \"the substantial increase in violent crime in Strathclyde last year\" was partly a result of cuts in funding, leaving \"Strathclyde police . . . 350 officers short of their operational competence\"— the establishment deemed appropriate to provide adequate policing. To gasps of amazement, at least from the SNP benches, Mr Wallace responded by saying that \"there is no clear correlation between levels of crime and . . . the size of police forces.\"—Official Report, 4 November 1999; Vol 3, c 341-42. Not only do I beg to differ, but so do Strathclyde police. The following day, at a seminar at their headquarters and in the presence of a number of MSPs, I asked the same question of an assistant chief constable. The answer was, \"Of course there is.\" Such a complacent attitude in the Scottish Executive is totally unacceptable. In 1998-99, the number of crimes of dishonesty in Strathclyde rose from 133,613 to 140,942, an increase of 5.1 per cent. The number of crimes of violence rose from 12,040 to 14,029, an increase of 16.52 per cent. The number of drugs offences increased by 19.4 per cent from 15,136 to 18,078.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I will not. I do not give way to people who do not give way to others.

I want to focus on the difficulties faced by Strathclyde police because of the severe funding constraints imposed by the Executive and by the First Minister in his previous incarnation as Secretary of State for Scotland.

On 4 November, I asked the Deputy First Minister whether he agreed

\"that inadequate police resources lead to increased crime, especially public order offences and street crime\", and whether

\"the substantial increase in violent crime in Strathclyde last year\" was partly a result of cuts in funding, leaving

\"Strathclyde police . . . 350 officers short of their operational competence\"— the establishment deemed appropriate to provide adequate policing. To gasps of amazement, at least from the SNP benches, Mr Wallace responded by saying that

\"there is no clear correlation between levels of crime and . . . the size of police forces.\"—[Official Report, 4 November 1999; Vol 3, c 341-42.]

Not only do I beg to differ, but so do Strathclyde police. The following day, at a seminar at their headquarters and in the presence of a number of MSPs, I asked the same question of an assistant chief constable. The answer was, \"Of course there is.\" Such a complacent attitude in the Scottish Executive is totally unacceptable.

In 1998-99, the number of crimes of dishonesty in Strathclyde rose from 133,613 to 140,942, an increase of 5.1 per cent. The number of crimes of

violence rose from 12,040 to 14,029, an increase of 16.52 per cent. The number of drugs offences increased by 19.4 per cent from 15,136 to 18,078.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:18:48.0221515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2110E214P424C712405", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gibson, Kenneth", "ID": 2110, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenneth Gibson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Gibson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 148.0, "ContributionID": 712405, "EditedText": "In that case, I cannot let Angus MacKay in. I would like to, but I cannot get more time. On 4 November, the Deputy First Minister, responding to my question, informed the chamber that police budgets would increase in 2000-01 by an inflation-busting 3.8 per cent. Mr Wallace disingenuously failed to mention that more than a third of that increase would have to be paid back in non-domestic rates, which will be charged to the police from next April for the first time. That will cost the police in Scotland £10 million a year. Truly, what you giveth, Jim, you also taketh away. A cynic might be impressed by how soon into his new job Mr Wallace has become acquainted with spin. Who knows—perhaps he is Scotland's Jack Straw. The police are being starved of resources. In terms of revenue, in 1999-2000 Strathclyde police have been awarded £4.45 million less than they require simply to meet the cost of the annual pay award. Over the same period, the cost of police pensions payable from revenue has increased by £2 million. As pay and pensions makes up 88.1 per cent of Strathclyde police's revenue expenditure, there is little opportunity to make year-on-year savings other than by hammering front-line policing.", "EditedTextHTML": "In that case, I cannot let Angus MacKay in. I would like to, but I cannot get more time.

On 4 November, the Deputy First Minister, responding to my question, informed the chamber that police budgets would increase in 2000-01 by an inflation-busting 3.8 per cent. Mr Wallace disingenuously failed to mention that more than a third of that increase would have to be paid back in non-domestic rates, which will be charged to the police from next April for the first time. That will cost the police in Scotland £10 million a year. Truly, what you giveth, Jim, you also taketh away. A cynic might be impressed by how soon into his new job Mr Wallace has become acquainted with spin. Who knows—perhaps he is Scotland's Jack Straw.

The police are being starved of resources. In terms of revenue, in 1999-2000 Strathclyde police have been awarded £4.45 million less than they require simply to meet the cost of the annual pay award. Over the same period, the cost of police pensions payable from revenue has increased by £2 million. As pay and pensions makes up 88.1 per cent of Strathclyde police's revenue expenditure, there is little opportunity to make year-on-year savings other than by hammering front-line policing.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:18:48.0377751+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C712541", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27112, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 352.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27113, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 353.0, "QuestionHeading": "Enterprise Policy", "QuestionHeadingID": 27122, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 426.0, "DisplayOrder": 426.0, "ID": 27122, "ParentID": 27113 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 431.0, "ContributionID": 712541, "EditedText": "On that very point, will the minister assure Parliament that Scotland will receive a Barnett formula share of the new national high- tech venture capital fund that the chancellor has announced? If we will not, why not?", "EditedTextHTML": "On that very point, will the minister assure Parliament that Scotland will receive a Barnett formula share of the new national high- tech venture capital fund that the chancellor has announced? If we will not, why not?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:22:26.8814208+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C712543", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27112, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 352.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27113, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 353.0, "QuestionHeading": "Enterprise Policy", "QuestionHeadingID": 27122, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 426.0, "DisplayOrder": 426.0, "ID": 27122, "ParentID": 27113 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 435.0, "ContributionID": 712543, "EditedText": "The point that I am trying to get at is this: will the Scottish Executive be able to guarantee that Scotland gets its fair share of the venture capital funds? Would it not be better if our enterprise agencies were given the ability to determine the allocation of money to projects— based on the needs of Scottish companies and Scottish industry—so that they did not have to depend on the Executive's efforts to negotiate on our behalf in Westminster?", "EditedTextHTML": "The point that I am trying to get at is this: will the Scottish Executive be able to guarantee that Scotland gets its fair share of the venture capital funds? Would it not be better if our enterprise agencies were given the ability to determine the allocation of money to projects— based on the needs of Scottish companies and Scottish industry—so that they did not have to depend on the Executive's efforts to negotiate on our behalf in Westminster?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:22:26.8814208+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2110E214P424C712413", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 25 Nov 1999", "ID": 4194 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-25T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law and Order", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27110, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27110, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gibson, Kenneth", "ID": 2110, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenneth Gibson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Gibson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 164.0, "ContributionID": 712413, "EditedText": "Unfortunately, this Executive of expediency has shamefully betrayed Strathclyde police.", "EditedTextHTML": "Unfortunately, this Executive of expediency has shamefully betrayed Strathclyde police.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:20:08.7854474+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1773E197P503C712176", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hyslop, Fiona", "ID": 1773, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona Hyslop", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona Hyslop: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 202.0, "ContributionID": 712176, "EditedText": "I am grateful that the minister has finally given way. Although we recognise that producing targets is the right thing to do, we are concerned that the Executive's targets are vague and meaningless. Some 800,000 people in Scotland live at or below income support level. How many of them will have been brought out of poverty after the first session of the Parliament?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful that the minister has finally given way. Although we recognise that producing targets is the right thing to do, we are concerned that the Executive's targets are vague and meaningless. Some 800,000 people in Scotland live at or below income support level. How many of them will have been brought out of poverty after the first session of the Parliament?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:00:47.4376059+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1773E197P503C712127", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hyslop, Fiona", "ID": 1773, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona Hyslop", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona Hyslop (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 95.0, "ContributionID": 712127, "EditedText": "At long last, we are having a debate in the chamber on poverty and the social justice targets. I welcome it and am pleased to note that the Minister for Communities has come round to the SNP way of thinking, using the term social justice as opposed to social inclusion. I have often thought that social inclusion is an inadequate way to describe a campaign against poverty and inequality. As shadow social justice minister, I am glad that the Minister for Communities has changed her use of language. Unfortunately, she has not yet changed her policies. I want to mention at this point the pensioners who have come to hear this debate, in particular those from the Strathclyde Elderly Forum. The timing of the debate sits uncomfortably with the announcement that the improvement in pensions will be only 75p a week. How does that square with one of the minister's commitments to \"Make sure older people are financially secure\", which is one of the targets in \"Social Justice\"? We should listen closely to the people who have come to speak to us about the plight of pensioners in Scotland. I want to make a strong objection on behalf of my party—and, I think, other members— about how the Executive has approached this debate. It is an indication of contempt that this issue, which the First Minister has said is at the heart of his Government, merits only a 70 minute debate this afternoon. I am sure that I am not the only person who thinks that Monday's media circus was objectionable. People would have expected a reasonable amount of time to question ministers on the range of areas they addressed in their announcement. It is a measure of how seriously the Executive treats the subject that it crams a debate on poverty and land reform into one afternoon, whereas a debate on the millennium bug, on which there is unanimity in the chamber, merits a three-hour debate. The Executive was elected on an expectation that it would start to deal with the backlog of poverty and despair that was built up by Conservative members in this chamber and left to fester by their former Scottish Office ministerial colleagues. When those ministers commissioned an action team to examine how poverty was evaluated, it must have been with some trepidation. There must have been a lingering fear, a recognition of the size of the task and a realisation that they lacked the required will and resources. When the incoming Minister for Communities read that action team's report, those fears must have been realised. The evaluation framework team was lead by Scottish Executive officials, incorporating a wide range of experience from Government departments, the voluntary sector and trade unions. They came up with a set of 50 indicators to evaluate poverty in Scotland. Their draft progress report was issued to the social inclusion network, which the Minister for Communities chairs, and thereafter it disappeared from sight. A final report has yet to be published. What we see now is a watered down, weaker, less vigorous, vaguer, more selective approach to the social justice targets launched by the Executive on Monday. In fact, of the 50 indicators that the action team recommended, 22 were ignored and the remainder have been weakened considerably. Where the action team laid down specific measurements, the Executive uses broad statements. The purpose of the action team report was to develop \"a robust evaluation framework to monitor success in promoting a more inclusive society\". The minister is waving the blue document at me—I have read the document on milestones and definitions too. The purpose of the \"Social Justice\" report seems to be to announce easily achievable targets, vague commitments, wish lists and promises to care more. The tone of the document is set from the beginning by the failure to adopt the European definition of poverty, which would allow international comparisons. The headline figure that should be used is the percentage of total Scottish population living on an income below 50 per cent of median Scottish income. The Executive has shied away from that. There is nothing robust about the task that the Executive has set itself. It has concocted a series of indicators designed to suit Executive and UK Government policy initiatives rather than to measure poverty in Scotland. The action team recommended that the measurements of child poverty should include the measurements of workless households and income levels. It also recommended that the Executive publish its success or failure in the other areas that give a true indication of poverty—free school meals and overcrowded housing. Those indicators have been dumped because they make for uncomfortable reading for ministers—today, next year and the year after that; not just in five, 10 or 20 years' time. At least 400,000 children live in poverty in Scotland. If, as the minister says, she aims to lift 60,000 children out of poverty in the next three years, what does she intend to do with the remaining 340,000? Will she simply ignore them? Twenty-year wish lists mean nothing if under the minister's proposals, today's three-year-old toddler would bring up her children in poverty. Where is the hope and vision in that? Where is the joined-up thinking and realevidence? The targets aim at\"Increasing the proportion of people with learning disabilities able to live at home or in a ‘homely' environment\". Only last week, the general manager of Lothian Health told MSPs that the Arbuthnott formula means that the board faces a 22 per cent cut, which could mean people being returned to institutions in order to cut costs. Perhaps the greatest omission in the \"Social Justice\" report is housing. It is interesting that the minister's own responsibilities may be the easiest to meet. We must ask whether that is a coincidence. While the action team recommended that we measure, assess and publish levels of homelessness, overcrowding, severe dampness and people experiencing fuel poverty, the Executive has put forward the blandest of statements. Instead of a robust approach, we are left with a target of \"Increasing the quality and variety of homes in our most disadvantaged communities\". Instead of being assessed on eradicating dampness, ending overcrowding, acting on homelessness and ending fuel poverty, the Executive is assessing itself on having increased the \"quality and variety of homes in the most disadvantaged areas\". That is a target so vague as to be meaningless. The Executive plans to award itself brownie points on its regular annual report. There are concerns. This morning, in the Social Inclusion, Housing and Voluntary Sector Committee, we heard from tenants about their concerns about modern-day urban clearances for the millennium. We must address that issue. I would like to conclude by mentioning fuel poverty. This is Warm Homes Week. If there is one measure that should have been at the heart of the \"Social Justice\" report, it is the target to end fuel poverty. If the minister is so confident in the measures that she has announced, surely she should have included that target. The Executive has come a long way, by recognising the issue and setting targets. It has proposed something that is welcome—we say that in our amendment— but what it proposes is not robust enough. We regard the \"Social Justice\" report as a betrayal of the Executive's promises to the poor and we will not allow that to be forgotten. The Executive is in danger of overloading on managerial, new Britain-speak, of mission statements and milestones without substance. Harold Wilson once said that the Labour party\"is a moral crusade or it is nothing.\"On the strength of the report, Labour is betraying its heritage by providing people in poverty in Scotland with nothing at all. I move amendment S1M-314.2, to leave out from \"welcomes\" to end and insert: \"recognises the appalling poverty we have in Scotland and the need for immediate action to tackle this poverty; welcomes the publication by the Scottish Executive of the report Social Justice …a Scotland where everyone matters; believes however that the report lacks definition, range, focus and clear achievable targets and agrees that the Executive should re-evaluate the report brought forward by the Evaluation Framework action team and bring forward revised targets and indicators to the Parliament.\"", "EditedTextHTML": "At long last, we are having a debate in the chamber on poverty and the social justice targets. I welcome it and am pleased to note that the Minister for Communities

has come round to the SNP way of thinking, using the term social justice as opposed to social inclusion. I have often thought that social inclusion is an inadequate way to describe a campaign against poverty and inequality. As shadow social justice minister, I am glad that the Minister for Communities has changed her use of language. Unfortunately, she has not yet changed her policies.

I want to mention at this point the pensioners who have come to hear this debate, in particular those from the Strathclyde Elderly Forum. The timing of the debate sits uncomfortably with the announcement that the improvement in pensions will be only 75p a week. How does that square with one of the minister's commitments to

\"Make sure older people are financially secure\", which is one of the targets in \"Social Justice\"?

We should listen closely to the people who have come to speak to us about the plight of pensioners in Scotland. I want to make a strong objection on behalf of my party—and, I think, other members— about how the Executive has approached this debate. It is an indication of contempt that this issue, which the First Minister has said is at the heart of his Government, merits only a 70 minute debate this afternoon.

I am sure that I am not the only person who thinks that Monday's media circus was objectionable. People would have expected a reasonable amount of time to question ministers on the range of areas they addressed in their announcement. It is a measure of how seriously the Executive treats the subject that it crams a debate on poverty and land reform into one afternoon, whereas a debate on the millennium bug, on which there is unanimity in the chamber, merits a three-hour debate.

The Executive was elected on an expectation that it would start to deal with the backlog of poverty and despair that was built up by Conservative members in this chamber and left to fester by their former Scottish Office ministerial colleagues. When those ministers commissioned an action team to examine how poverty was evaluated, it must have been with some trepidation. There must have been a lingering fear, a recognition of the size of the task and a realisation that they lacked the required will and resources.

When the incoming Minister for Communities read that action team's report, those fears must have been realised. The evaluation framework team was lead by Scottish Executive officials, incorporating a wide range of experience from Government departments, the voluntary sector and trade unions. They came up with a set of 50 indicators to evaluate poverty in Scotland. Their draft progress report was issued to the social inclusion network, which the Minister for Communities chairs, and thereafter it disappeared from sight.

A final report has yet to be published. What we see now is a watered down, weaker, less vigorous, vaguer, more selective approach to the social justice targets launched by the Executive on Monday. In fact, of the 50 indicators that the action team recommended, 22 were ignored and the remainder have been weakened considerably.

Where the action team laid down specific measurements, the Executive uses broad statements. The purpose of the action team report was to develop

\"a robust evaluation framework to monitor success in promoting a more inclusive society\".

The minister is waving the blue document at me—I have read the document on milestones and definitions too. The purpose of the \"Social Justice\" report seems to be to announce easily achievable targets, vague commitments, wish lists and promises to care more.

The tone of the document is set from the beginning by the failure to adopt the European definition of poverty, which would allow international comparisons. The headline figure that should be used is the percentage of total Scottish population living on an income below 50 per cent of median Scottish income. The Executive has shied away from that.

There is nothing robust about the task that the Executive has set itself. It has concocted a series of indicators designed to suit Executive and UK Government policy initiatives rather than to measure poverty in Scotland.

The action team recommended that the measurements of child poverty should include the measurements of workless households and income levels. It also recommended that the Executive publish its success or failure in the other areas that give a true indication of poverty—free school meals and overcrowded housing. Those indicators have been dumped because they make for uncomfortable reading for ministers—today, next year and the year after that; not just in five, 10 or 20 years' time.

At least 400,000 children live in poverty in Scotland. If, as the minister says, she aims to lift 60,000 children out of poverty in the next three years, what does she intend to do with the remaining 340,000? Will she simply ignore them? Twenty-year wish lists mean nothing if under the minister's proposals, today's three-year-old toddler would bring up her children in poverty. Where is the hope and vision in that?

Where is the joined-up thinking and real

evidence? The targets aim at

\"Increasing the proportion of people with learning disabilities able to live at home or in a ‘homely' environment\".

Only last week, the general manager of Lothian Health told MSPs that the Arbuthnott formula means that the board faces a 22 per cent cut, which could mean people being returned to institutions in order to cut costs.

Perhaps the greatest omission in the \"Social Justice\" report is housing. It is interesting that the minister's own responsibilities may be the easiest to meet. We must ask whether that is a coincidence. While the action team recommended that we measure, assess and publish levels of homelessness, overcrowding, severe dampness and people experiencing fuel poverty, the Executive has put forward the blandest of statements. Instead of a robust approach, we are left with a target of

\"Increasing the quality and variety of homes in our most disadvantaged communities\".

Instead of being assessed on eradicating dampness, ending overcrowding, acting on homelessness and ending fuel poverty, the Executive is assessing itself on having increased the

\"quality and variety of homes in the most disadvantaged areas\".

That is a target so vague as to be meaningless. The Executive plans to award itself brownie points on its regular annual report.

There are concerns. This morning, in the Social Inclusion, Housing and Voluntary Sector Committee, we heard from tenants about their concerns about modern-day urban clearances for the millennium. We must address that issue.

I would like to conclude by mentioning fuel poverty. This is Warm Homes Week. If there is one measure that should have been at the heart of the \"Social Justice\" report, it is the target to end fuel poverty. If the minister is so confident in the measures that she has announced, surely she should have included that target. The Executive has come a long way, by recognising the issue and setting targets. It has proposed something that is welcome—we say that in our amendment— but what it proposes is not robust enough.

We regard the \"Social Justice\" report as a betrayal of the Executive's promises to the poor and we will not allow that to be forgotten. The Executive is in danger of overloading on managerial, new Britain-speak, of mission statements and milestones without substance.

Harold Wilson once said that the Labour party

\"is a moral crusade or it is nothing.\"

On the strength of the report, Labour is betraying its heritage by providing people in poverty in Scotland with nothing at all.

I move amendment S1M-314.2, to leave out from \"welcomes\" to end and insert:

\"recognises the appalling poverty we have in Scotland and the need for immediate action to tackle this poverty; welcomes the publication by the Scottish Executive of the report Social Justice …a Scotland where everyone matters; believes however that the report lacks definition, range, focus and clear achievable targets and agrees that the Executive should re-evaluate the report brought forward by the Evaluation Framework action team and bring forward revised targets and indicators to the Parliament.\"

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:00:34.116328+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C712083", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Time for Reflection", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27103, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27103, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 4.0, "ContributionID": 712083, "EditedText": "I invite the Reverend David Beckett, the minister of Greyfriars Tolbooth and Highland Kirk, Edinburgh, to lead us in our time for reflection.", "EditedTextHTML": "I invite the Reverend David Beckett, the minister of Greyfriars Tolbooth and Highland Kirk, Edinburgh, to lead us in our time for reflection.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712084", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Time for Reflection", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27103, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27103, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "The Reverend David Beckett (Minister of Greyfriars Tolbooth and Highland Kirk, Edinburgh) ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Reverend David Beckett (Minister of Greyfriars Tolbooth and Highland Kirk, Edinburgh): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 6.0, "ContributionID": 712084, "EditedText": "Thank you, Sir David. It has given pleasure to all of us who worship—both in English and in Gaelic—at Greyfriars, that Scotland's Parliament is meeting in our parish, even though it is not to be its long-term home. The very existence of this Parliament is the fulfilment of a long-expressed wish of the Kirk's general assembly. Even at this early stage, it is interesting how often the concerns of Church and Parliament converge—as they do in the issues that the Parliament will discuss today. Social justice is perennially on the Church's agenda. If it ever disappeared from that agenda, the Church would no longer deserve to exist. Land reform has been a major concern of our Church and Nation Committee for the past few years. We must all be concerned by the different forms of drug dependence in which so many of our young people become trapped. This next week brings us to two significant dates. For Christians, Advent—which begins on Sunday—reminds us of our ultimate accountability. That accountability gathers us all in, whether we are in a position of power or whether we simply share the responsibility to one another and for one another that is common to every member of the community. The other date is St Andrew's day, which I am sure will strike a less nostalgic and more forward-looking note this year than it did before the Parliament was here. Perhaps it is good that there is so little in the gospel about Andrew and that there is even less sure historical foundation for his legendary connection with our country. That makes it impossible to argue about him which, almost certainly, we would if we knew more—even in the Church we find it difficult to argue much about St Andrew. It also allows us all to project on to our patron saint and on to our national day our different visions of the caring, hospitable, community-spirited Scotland that we all want to see from our different perspectives. Let us pray.Let us thank God for Scotland—for its beauty, its variety and for its heritage. Let us ask his guidance for the business of this day and pray that all of us together— Parliament and people—might build up a nation of sound values, of just laws and respect by all for all. May the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God and the leading of his Holy Spirit be with you in all your discussions. Amen.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you, Sir David. It has given pleasure to all of us who worship—both in English and in Gaelic—at Greyfriars, that Scotland's Parliament is meeting in our parish, even though it is not to be its long-term home.

The very existence of this Parliament is the fulfilment of a long-expressed wish of the Kirk's general assembly. Even at this early stage, it is interesting how often the concerns of Church and Parliament converge—as they do in the issues that the Parliament will discuss today. Social justice is perennially on the Church's agenda. If it ever disappeared from that agenda, the Church would no longer deserve to exist. Land reform has been a major concern of our Church and Nation Committee for the past few years. We must all be concerned by the different forms of drug dependence in which so many of our young people become trapped.

This next week brings us to two significant dates. For Christians, Advent—which begins on Sunday—reminds us of our ultimate accountability. That accountability gathers us all in, whether we are in a position of power or whether we simply share the responsibility to one another and for one another that is common to every member of the community. The other date is St Andrew's day, which I am sure will strike a less nostalgic and more forward-looking note this year than it did before the Parliament was here.

Perhaps it is good that there is so little in the gospel about Andrew and that there is even less sure historical foundation for his legendary connection with our country. That makes it impossible to argue about him which, almost certainly, we would if we knew more—even in the Church we find it difficult to argue much about St Andrew. It also allows us all to project on to our patron saint and on to our national day our different visions of the caring, hospitable, community-spirited Scotland that we all want to see from our different perspectives.

Let us pray.

Let us thank God for Scotland—for its beauty, its variety and for its heritage. Let us ask his guidance for the business of this day and pray that all of us together— Parliament and people—might build up a nation of sound values, of just laws and respect by all for all.

May the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God and the leading of his Holy Spirit be with you in all your discussions. Amen.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C712085", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Time for Reflection", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27103, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27103, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 8.0, "ContributionID": 712085, "EditedText": "Before we begin this afternoon's business, I remind members that because of the two heavy debates that we have today, decision time will be at half-past 5 instead of 5 o'clock, as normal.", "EditedTextHTML": "Before we begin this afternoon's business, I remind members that because of the two heavy debates that we have today, decision time will be at half-past 5 instead of 5 o'clock, as normal.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C712087", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Time for Reflection", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27103, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27103, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 12.0, "ContributionID": 712087, "EditedText": "I am grateful to the two Opposition spokespeople, Ms Hyslop and Mr Aitken, for raising the issue with me. I have given the matter some careful thought. A written question on this subject was lodged on Friday and was properly answered on Monday, indicating that the document was going to be published that day. Unfortunately, our own procedures meant that the answer was not available on the web until today and will not be published until next Monday. We need to re-examine our procedures for written answers if that practice is to be followed. I will raise the matter at my next meeting with the First Minister, whom I meet occasionally to discuss matters of mutual concern. However, I understand that substantial issues have not been announced in advance and are being announced to the Parliament today. We should begin the debate and listen to what the minister has to say.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful to the two Opposition spokespeople, Ms Hyslop and Mr Aitken, for raising the issue with me. I have given the matter some careful thought. A written question on this subject was lodged on Friday and was properly answered on Monday, indicating that the document was going to be published that day. Unfortunately, our own procedures meant that the answer was not available on the web until today and will not be published until next Monday. We need to re-examine our procedures for written answers if that practice is to be followed. I will raise the matter at my next meeting with the First Minister, whom I meet occasionally to discuss matters of mutual concern. However, I understand that substantial issues have not been announced in advance and are being announced to the Parliament today. We should begin the debate and listen to what the minister has to say.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C712097", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 34.0, "ContributionID": 712097, "EditedText": "The member will have 10 minutes immediately following this speech. Let us push the SNP logic a bit further. If we used lower average incomes in Scotland, we would be suggesting that there are fewer people in poverty in Scotland than there actually are. We will use the more ambitious UK targets.", "EditedTextHTML": "The member will have 10 minutes immediately following this speech.

Let us push the SNP logic a bit further. If we used lower average incomes in Scotland, we would be suggesting that there are fewer people in poverty in Scotland than there actually are. We will use the more ambitious UK targets.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1865E219P509C712098", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "White, Sandra", "ID": 1865, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sandra White", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms White: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 36.0, "ContributionID": 712098, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2118E157P454C712100", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Quinan, Mr Lloyd", "ID": 2118, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lloyd Quinan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Lloyd Quinan (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 40.0, "ContributionID": 712100, "EditedText": "On a point of order. Is it acceptable for the minister to speak to us about—Interruption.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. Is it acceptable for the minister to speak to us about—[Interruption.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1865E219P509C712108", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "White, Sandra", "ID": 1865, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sandra White", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms White rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 56.0, "ContributionID": 712108, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C712109", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 58.0, "ContributionID": 712109, "EditedText": "Two thirds of the black hole would then be filled. If we wanted to fill the rest, we would need another £400 million. Perhaps we should try Scottish pensioners—no free eye tests; no free television licences; no minimum income guarantee; no earnings link; no £100 fuel bonus.", "EditedTextHTML": "Two thirds of the black hole would then be filled. If we wanted to fill the rest, we would need another £400 million. Perhaps we should try Scottish pensioners—no free eye tests; no free television licences; no minimum income guarantee; no earnings link; no £100 fuel bonus.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C712121", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 82.0, "ContributionID": 712121, "EditedText": "Yes. I am coming to the end.The delivery of a freeze in the council tax was opposed by the SNP and was pilloried by Tommy Sheridan for forcing people to pay their council tax, so only new Labour can turn around the fortunes of Glasgow. We are doing so. This Parliament is here to deliver social justice for all. We carry with us the ambitions of men and women who want to live in a country governed for the many, not the few.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes. I am coming to the end.

The delivery of a freeze in the council tax was opposed by the SNP and was pilloried by Tommy Sheridan for forcing people to pay their council tax, so only new Labour can turn around the fortunes of Glasgow. We are doing so. This Parliament is here to deliver social justice for all. We carry with us the ambitions of men and women who want to live in a country governed for the many, not the few.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6232703+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2029E47P167C712129", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Henry, Hugh", "ID": 2029, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Hugh Henry", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Hugh Henry (Paisley South) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 100.0, "ContributionID": 712129, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6232703+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C712131", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 104.0, "ContributionID": 712131, "EditedText": "Not today—I have a sore throat.", "EditedTextHTML": "Not today—I have a sore throat.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6232703+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2234E7P20C712132", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Aitken, Bill", "ID": 2234, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bill Aitken", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bill Aitken: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 106.0, "ContributionID": 712132, "EditedText": "In one of the press releases, the minister states that she found the preparation of the documents \"intellectually challenging.\" The documents are hardly intellectually challenging— they are as challenging as a premature letter to Santa Claus, which is what, in effect, they are. Many will find the reference to a 20-year period highly intriguing. Most members of the present Executive will have left office by then—indeed, some of them may have left the face of the earth. But of course, a moving target cannot be hit, and no one will be personally responsible if even these vaguest of targets are not met. The message to Scotland's poor is quite simple: \"Live on, old horse, and you'll get corn.\" A 20-year plan is reminiscent of the Soviet Union's much-vaunted five-year plans. Donald Dewar takes four times as long as Joe Stalin, but who would bet against him getting the same result? It is disappointing in the extreme that these are the documents that have been put before us today. I must respond to the minister's attack on the Conservative Government. Let us deal in some facts, for a change, rather than rhetoric. The Conservative Government was good. Spending on the national health service in Scotland increased by 57 per cent in real terms between 1979 and 1997, which is 22 per cent higher, I remind our friends in the Scottish National party, than the figure in England. Until 1997, crime fell for five successive years. Spending per pupil in secondary schools rose by 37 per cent in real terms during the periods in office of the Conservative Government. More than £8 billion was invested in council housing between 1979 and 1997. Those are facts which cannot be denied. The minister gave herself away in one of her opening statements when she complained about the lack of investment and interest over the past 20 years. Is she saying that, during the past two and a half years of Labour government in Westminster, interest and funding have been lacking? It would be interesting to hear what she has to say about that. The Executive cannot attack past Conservative Governments. It should be looking within its own ranks to see where the failures lie. Many of the problems have been the fault of local government. Glasgow is a city with diabolical problems— problems which all of us, from all parties, recognise. Let us look at those problems. Look at the failures of the education system in Glasgow. Who ran it? Labour-controlled Strathclyde Regional Council and Labour-controlled Glasgow City Council. Look at the health service. It has been in the remit of the Westminster Labour Government for the past two and a half years. In that period, we have seen a deterioration—an accepted deterioration—in health service provision. There again, the blame lies elsewhere, and not with Conservative Governments. Try telling the old-age pensioners from Glasgow who are outside the chamber today that they are being looked after by the caring, sharing Labour Government. They are bewailing the fact that a 75p increase is not likely to go far in this day and age. Labour's appalling record is what should be on trial today, rather than that of history. The fact of the matter is that what is being announced today is just another public relations stunt, another exercise in hype and a totally meaningless demonstration of media control. I move amendment S1M-314.1, to leave out \"agrees\" and insert: \"notes the Scottish Executive's publication of ‘Social Justice …a Scotland where everyone matters' which sets out statements not targets; does not provide any proposals for action or details of funding; does not set out any meaningful way in which progress on the issues highlighted can be measured; and completely fails to address the needs of Scotland's people.\"", "EditedTextHTML": "In one of the press releases, the minister states that she found the preparation of the documents \"intellectually challenging.\" The documents are hardly intellectually challenging— they are as challenging as a premature letter to Santa Claus, which is what, in effect, they are.

Many will find the reference to a 20-year period highly intriguing. Most members of the present Executive will have left office by then—indeed, some of them may have left the face of the earth. But of course, a moving target cannot be hit, and no one will be personally responsible if even these vaguest of targets are not met. The message to Scotland's poor is quite simple: \"Live on, old horse, and you'll get corn.\"

A 20-year plan is reminiscent of the Soviet Union's much-vaunted five-year plans. Donald Dewar takes four times as long as Joe Stalin, but who would bet against him getting the same result? It is disappointing in the extreme that these are the documents that have been put before us today.

I must respond to the minister's attack on the Conservative Government. Let us deal in some facts, for a change, rather than rhetoric. The Conservative Government was good. Spending on the national health service in Scotland increased by 57 per cent in real terms between 1979 and 1997, which is 22 per cent higher, I remind our friends in the Scottish National party, than the figure in England.

Until 1997, crime fell for five successive years. Spending per pupil in secondary schools rose by 37 per cent in real terms during the periods in office of the Conservative Government. More than £8 billion was invested in council housing between 1979 and 1997. Those are facts which cannot be denied.

The minister gave herself away in one of her opening statements when she complained about the lack of investment and interest over the past 20 years. Is she saying that, during the past two and a half years of Labour government in Westminster, interest and funding have been lacking? It would be interesting to hear what she has to say about that.

The Executive cannot attack past Conservative Governments. It should be looking within its own ranks to see where the failures lie. Many of the problems have been the fault of local government. Glasgow is a city with diabolical problems— problems which all of us, from all parties, recognise.

Let us look at those problems. Look at the failures of the education system in Glasgow. Who ran it? Labour-controlled Strathclyde Regional Council and Labour-controlled Glasgow City Council.

Look at the health service. It has been in the remit of the Westminster Labour Government for the past two and a half years. In that period, we have seen a deterioration—an accepted deterioration—in health service provision. There again, the blame lies elsewhere, and not with Conservative Governments.

Try telling the old-age pensioners from Glasgow who are outside the chamber today that they are being looked after by the caring, sharing Labour Government. They are bewailing the fact that a 75p increase is not likely to go far in this day and age.

Labour's appalling record is what should be on trial today, rather than that of history. The fact of the matter is that what is being announced today is just another public relations stunt, another exercise in hype and a totally meaningless demonstration of media control.

I move amendment S1M-314.1, to leave out \"agrees\" and insert:

\"notes the Scottish Executive's publication of ‘Social Justice …a Scotland where everyone matters' which sets out statements not targets; does not provide any proposals for action or details of funding; does not set out any meaningful way in which progress on the issues highlighted can be measured; and completely fails to address the needs of Scotland's people.\"

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6232703+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C712143", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 132.0, "ContributionID": 712143, "EditedText": "Wendy did not take any interventions, but I will take one from her.", "EditedTextHTML": "Wendy did not take any interventions, but I will take one from her.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6232703+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C712152", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 150.0, "ContributionID": 712152, "EditedText": "Mr Sheridan, I must ask you to wind up quickly.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Sheridan, I must ask you to wind up quickly.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6232703+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C712155", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 156.0, "ContributionID": 712155, "EditedText": "The politeness that we are getting from the Labour benches is marvellous. I know that the Executive does not want to hear this message, but the TUC report showed that by 2001-02 the Government will be spending 25 per cent less in general expenditure on public services than the Tories spent in 1993-94. Labour is now out-Torying the Tories, and it should be ashamed of itself.", "EditedTextHTML": "The politeness that we are getting from the Labour benches is marvellous.

I know that the Executive does not want to hear this message, but the TUC report showed that by 2001-02 the Government will be spending 25 per cent less in general expenditure on public services than the Tories spent in 1993-94. Labour is now out-Torying the Tories, and it should be ashamed of itself.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6232703+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2185E120P328C712156", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Brown, Robert", "ID": 2185, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robert Brown", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robert Brown (Glasgow) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 159.0, "ContributionID": 712156, "EditedText": "I do not know whether I am alone in this chamber in noticing a connection between the importance of the subject and the level of rant. Unfortunately, rant has characterised many of the speeches that have been made today. The social inclusion targets that the minister set out are worthy and well motivated, although I am bound to say that the tone in which she opened the debate left something to be desired. The targets are a tribute to the emphasis on outputs rather than inputs—on results rather than programmes—that the Parliament and our partnership Executive have required. There can be no more meaningful goal than to help individuals and communities realise their full potential in our demanding society. It is a tremendous shame that, at the same time as the minister is making her statement, the Chancellor of the Exchequer—motivated either by an excess of financial prudence or the need for a pre-election war chest—is sitting on a kitty of many billions of pounds. It is also a pity that Labour ministers in London are cutting benefit for the disabled and threatening housing benefit—in effect, smashing down the bricks that the Scottish Executive is so painstakingly building up. The minister might usefully have a quiet word in the ear of her brother or others who are alleged to be close to the Prime Minister or the chancellor. However, the Scottish Executive is entirely right to target specific areas of social inclusion that will both make a difference to people's everyday lives and make our deprived communities more inclusive. I suggest that much of the programme hinges on what happens in Glasgow, as, indeed, does the extent to which we collectively make a difference. Glasgow may or may not be in line to welcome the Parliament when we make our sojourn away from this building during the Kirk's general assembly next year. However, Glasgow is the real capital of Scotland in many ways—not all of which are good. We have the largest population, but the greatest concentration of deprived areas. We have world-renowned medical specialists, but the worst health record in Scotland. It is the only city in the United Kingdom in which no new hospitals have been built this century. We have the highest unemployment figures and the greatest proportion of citizens dependent on benefits. As a report published yesterday by researchers at two universities showed, despite Glasgow's commercial success and shopping facilities, which are second only to London's, the city has an economic problem that, when compared with what is happening in Edinburgh, reminds one of the difference between East and West Germany following the fall of the Berlin wall. A Glaswegian earns, on average, fully a third less than the average citizen of Edinburgh does. Glasgow is the rock and the hard place for the Scottish Executive. A considerable share of resources will be required to make a difference, to overcome disadvantage, to give people opportunity and hope and to help them make the best use of their abilities. Glasgow has many things going for it, however. For example, the new housing partnership is not just a housing regeneration opportunity—one that is likely to be botched if our comrades in George Square with their centralist notions have their way. It could be a major economic spur to the city, creating jobs, adding to income and giving communities a leg up. However, the partnership must be more than a short-term fix; it must be linked to long-term development of individuals, communities and local economies. Our universities and colleges also make a contribution, as does the voluntary sector, which— this is important—is mentioned in the social inclusion strategy. The voluntary sector can be led, but it cannot be driven. It can multiply many times over the investment that the Executive makes in social inclusion policies. Two words—people count—sum up one of the oldest and best Liberal themes. I whole-heartedly welcome the commitment of my Parliament and my Executive to these social inclusion targets.", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not know whether I am alone in this chamber in noticing a connection between the importance of the subject and the level of rant. Unfortunately, rant has characterised many of the speeches that have been made today.

The social inclusion targets that the minister set out are worthy and well motivated, although I am bound to say that the tone in which she opened the debate left something to be desired. The targets are a tribute to the emphasis on outputs rather than inputs—on results rather than programmes—that the Parliament and our partnership Executive have required. There can be no more meaningful goal than to help individuals and communities realise their full potential in our demanding society.

It is a tremendous shame that, at the same time as the minister is making her statement, the

Chancellor of the Exchequer—motivated either by an excess of financial prudence or the need for a pre-election war chest—is sitting on a kitty of many billions of pounds. It is also a pity that Labour ministers in London are cutting benefit for the disabled and threatening housing benefit—in effect, smashing down the bricks that the Scottish Executive is so painstakingly building up. The minister might usefully have a quiet word in the ear of her brother or others who are alleged to be close to the Prime Minister or the chancellor.

However, the Scottish Executive is entirely right to target specific areas of social inclusion that will both make a difference to people's everyday lives and make our deprived communities more inclusive. I suggest that much of the programme hinges on what happens in Glasgow, as, indeed, does the extent to which we collectively make a difference.

Glasgow may or may not be in line to welcome the Parliament when we make our sojourn away from this building during the Kirk's general assembly next year. However, Glasgow is the real capital of Scotland in many ways—not all of which are good. We have the largest population, but the greatest concentration of deprived areas. We have world-renowned medical specialists, but the worst health record in Scotland. It is the only city in the United Kingdom in which no new hospitals have been built this century. We have the highest unemployment figures and the greatest proportion of citizens dependent on benefits.

As a report published yesterday by researchers at two universities showed, despite Glasgow's commercial success and shopping facilities, which are second only to London's, the city has an economic problem that, when compared with what is happening in Edinburgh, reminds one of the difference between East and West Germany following the fall of the Berlin wall. A Glaswegian earns, on average, fully a third less than the average citizen of Edinburgh does.

Glasgow is the rock and the hard place for the Scottish Executive. A considerable share of resources will be required to make a difference, to overcome disadvantage, to give people opportunity and hope and to help them make the best use of their abilities.

Glasgow has many things going for it, however. For example, the new housing partnership is not just a housing regeneration opportunity—one that is likely to be botched if our comrades in George Square with their centralist notions have their way. It could be a major economic spur to the city, creating jobs, adding to income and giving communities a leg up. However, the partnership must be more than a short-term fix; it must be linked to long-term development of individuals, communities and local economies.

Our universities and colleges also make a contribution, as does the voluntary sector, which— this is important—is mentioned in the social inclusion strategy. The voluntary sector can be led, but it cannot be driven. It can multiply many times over the investment that the Executive makes in social inclusion policies.

Two words—people count—sum up one of the oldest and best Liberal themes. I whole-heartedly welcome the commitment of my Parliament and my Executive to these social inclusion targets.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6232703+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2066E64P88C712157", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McGrigor, Jamie", "ID": 2066, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie McGrigor", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Jamie McGrigor (Highlands and Islands) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 162.0, "ContributionID": 712157, "EditedText": "It was good to see our First Minister, Donald Dewar, on television the other day saying that the Executive intends to eradicate poverty in Scotland within the next 20 years. However, his appearance was followed by a programme that showed people in the more deprived areas of Glasgow who were unable to walk to the shops to buy their food, because the local supermarkets had shut down and the enormous new supermarkets were miles away. I wonder how included those people felt, especially if they did not have access to a car, were wheelchair-bound or disabled in some other way. I represent the Highlands and Islands— everything from Campbeltown to Shetland. In that area, a strong sense is building up among the people that, far from being included, they are being forgotten. Gordon Brown tells us that the country is awash with money and so it should be easy for every UK citizen to share in this wave of new prosperity. The truth is rather different. The appalling agricultural situation, which runs throughout the social network of the Highlands and Islands, is reducing people's incomes to pennies. People with greatly reduced incomes are having to pay over the odds for almost everything they buy, mainly as a result, of course, of the price of petrol and diesel, which affects the cost of everything. In some of the islands, petrol and diesel can be as much as 90p a litre—the VAT content means that the people who live there are paying even more tax. Is that inclusive? The elderly and disabled find it even more difficult to get out and about—they cannot afford to. In new Labour's thriving United Kingdom, does the Government intend to include any people north of Loch Lomond? Fishing and every sector of agriculture—sheep, beef, dairy, pigs and grain—is at a low. One has only to look at the number of hotels that are for sale or at Caledonian MacBrayne's latest passenger and vehicle figures to see that tourism—an industry that is of enormous importance to the north—is also in decline. People will feel included only if they experience a standard of living similar to that enjoyed in the more prosperous areas. A good health service, quality education and care for the elderly are seen as a right. I give members a local example. Lorn and Islands district general hospital, which cares for the needs of a large mainland area and many of the islands, was recently offered a brand new scanner—worth millions—by the North British Hotels Trust for nothing. However, our health service has so far been unable to come up with the £50,000 a year necessary to run it. That means that ailing patients, often in pain, are faced with long journeys to the central belt, when they should be treated at the new hospital in Oban. The Conservatives believe that we should devolve power locally to health care professionals and the communities that they serve. Those professionals and communities know the problems; they have the answers. \"Social Justice\" states that the Executive intends to reduce the gap between the employment rate in the worst areas and the average employment rate for Scotland. Why, then, is the Executive permitting policies to be pursued that are increasing unemployment, decreasing incomes and discouraging investment? Rural communities are being bombarded on all sides. The proposed legislation on land reform, feudal tenure and banning hunting will not increase income by a penny, but it will strike at the heart of communities—however they are defined—and simply add more bureaucracy and red tape. All people want is a simple, level playing field that includes all the players. In the Highlands and Islands, as in the rest of Scotland, people are concerned about their jobs, families, communities and having a stable future. This document addresses those issues with platitudes that—although they may be touching— are driven by ineffective idealism. The Executive may be good at producing glossy documents at great expense, but it never consults or includes the people who matter. If it did, it would discover that it should be working hand in hand with local communities to find the solutions that are relevant to the problems of specific communities in specific areas. That is what inclusion is about.", "EditedTextHTML": "It was good to see our First Minister, Donald Dewar, on television the other day saying that the Executive intends to eradicate poverty in Scotland within the next 20 years. However, his appearance was followed by a programme that showed people in the more deprived areas of Glasgow who were unable to walk to the shops to buy their food, because the local supermarkets had shut down and the enormous new supermarkets were miles away. I wonder how included those people felt, especially if they did not have access to a car, were wheelchair-bound or disabled in some other way.

I represent the Highlands and Islands— everything from Campbeltown to Shetland. In that area, a strong sense is building up among the people that, far from being included, they are being forgotten. Gordon Brown tells us that the country is awash with money and so it should be easy for every UK citizen to share in this wave of new prosperity. The truth is rather different.

The appalling agricultural situation, which runs throughout the social network of the Highlands and Islands, is reducing people's incomes to pennies. People with greatly reduced incomes are having to pay over the odds for almost everything they buy, mainly as a result, of course, of the price of petrol and diesel, which affects the cost of everything. In some of the islands, petrol and diesel can be as much as 90p a litre—the VAT content means that the people who live there are paying even more tax. Is that inclusive? The elderly and disabled find it even more difficult to get out and about—they cannot afford to.

In new Labour's thriving United Kingdom, does the Government intend to include any people north of Loch Lomond? Fishing and every sector of agriculture—sheep, beef, dairy, pigs and grain—is at a low. One has only to look at the number of hotels that are for sale or at Caledonian MacBrayne's latest passenger and vehicle figures to see that tourism—an industry that is of enormous importance to the north—is also in decline.

People will feel included only if they experience a standard of living similar to that enjoyed in the more prosperous areas. A good health service, quality education and care for the elderly are seen as a right.

I give members a local example. Lorn and Islands district general hospital, which cares for the needs of a large mainland area and many of the islands, was recently offered a brand new scanner—worth millions—by the North British Hotels Trust for nothing. However, our health service has so far been unable to come up with the £50,000 a year necessary to run it. That means that ailing patients, often in pain, are faced with long journeys to the central belt, when they should be treated at the new hospital in Oban. The Conservatives believe that we should devolve power locally to health care professionals and the communities that they serve. Those professionals and communities know the problems; they have the answers.

\"Social Justice\" states that the Executive intends to reduce the gap between the employment rate in the worst areas and the average employment rate for Scotland. Why, then, is the Executive permitting policies to be pursued that are increasing unemployment, decreasing incomes and discouraging investment? Rural communities are being bombarded on all sides. The proposed legislation on land reform, feudal tenure and banning hunting will not increase income by a penny, but it will strike at the heart of communities—however they are defined—and simply add more bureaucracy and red tape. All people want is a simple, level playing field that includes all the players.

In the Highlands and Islands, as in the rest of Scotland, people are concerned about their jobs, families, communities and having a stable future. This document addresses those issues with platitudes that—although they may be touching— are driven by ineffective idealism.

The Executive may be good at producing glossy documents at great expense, but it never consults or includes the people who matter. If it did, it would discover that it should be working hand in hand with local communities to find the solutions that are relevant to the problems of specific communities in specific areas. That is what inclusion is about.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6232703+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2118E157P454C712158", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Quinan, Mr Lloyd", "ID": 2118, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lloyd Quinan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Lloyd Quinan (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 165.0, "ContributionID": 712158, "EditedText": "I would like to be standing here welcoming an initiative that will eradicate poverty. Unfortunately, I cannot. Instead, I have the somewhat onerous task of summing up a debate that is on the agenda as an apology for Monday's media circus. These documents are devoid of content. Indeed, they state that it will be spring before any proposals to tackle poverty come into the public domain. It is to add insult to injury to proclaim initiatives targeted at the poorest and most marginalised sections of our society and to give a suggestion of hope when all that we have discussed today is another flashy booklet, crammed full of good intentions but little else. The documents contain no mechanism for tackling the curse of poverty, which affects a third of the population of this country. There is no scheme to rescue the young, the old or the vulnerable from damp housing. There is nothing to add even a penny to the income of the poorest family in Scotland. Perhaps the reason the Executive was so keen that this debate should be kept short was that it hoped that we would not see what is not in the document. The Executive's documents state boldly that the action plan, the means, the mechanism and the structure by which we will eradicate the evil that is poverty in this, the seventh richest country in the world, will not be discussed until the spring. It is arrogant at best—hurtful at worst—to build up in the press the hopes of a third of this country's people and then to deliver nothing more than a glossy document as a panacea for the nation's ills. The sentiment is laudable; the content is negligible. Having read the documents and listened to what passed for a ministerial speech, I have no doubt that many in the chamber were overcome with warm feelings of expectation, only to have them dashed when they asked difficult questions such as \"Who?\", \"By what amount?\" or \"By what means?\" Let us be specific—about fuel poverty, for example. Some 2,000 deaths in Scotland each winter are totally preventable. There is no requirement for modern medicines—our pensioners die each winter simply because they cannot heat their homes. The document says nothing about that. On benefit sanctions, I give the example of a pensioner who, with an income a mere 20p over the threshold, was deprived of benefit assistance following Government intervention. Will the minister confirm whether the Government has finally abandoned the universal state pension, which everyone has already paid for under the contract made between a Labour Government and the people of this country? How many pensioners will be above the means-test level in 20 years? Will a group of pensioners who fail the means test be left to live on £64.70? Will the Executive monitor any of those injustices? It seems not. It is unacceptable for the minister to hide behind schedule 5 of the Scotland Act 1998. She knows, I know and everyone here knows that, without reference to the Benefits Agency, the Executive's pretend assault on poverty is doomed to failure. The inadequacy of the devolution settlement is starkly highlighted in the area of social security and benefits. It is a delusion to believe that the third of people in Scotland who are in receipt of benefit, the third of people who suffer poverty, can have their circumstances altered for the better without the responsibility for social security, housing benefit and pensions resting in this chamber. Poverty is caused by an unequal distribution of power, resources and opportunities in society. This afternoon, we have seen no greater illustration of poverty than the minister's statement—not the poverty that afflicts a third of the people of this country, but a poverty of ideas. The Executive is intellectually bankrupt.", "EditedTextHTML": "I would like to be standing here welcoming an initiative that will eradicate poverty. Unfortunately, I cannot. Instead, I have the somewhat onerous task of summing up a debate that is on the agenda as an apology for Monday's media circus.

These documents are devoid of content. Indeed, they state that it will be spring before any proposals to tackle poverty come into the public domain. It is to add insult to injury to proclaim initiatives targeted at the poorest and most marginalised sections of our society and to give a suggestion of hope when all that we have discussed today is another flashy booklet, crammed full of good intentions but little else.

The documents contain no mechanism for tackling the curse of poverty, which affects a third of the population of this country. There is no scheme to rescue the young, the old or the vulnerable from damp housing. There is nothing to add even a penny to the income of the poorest family in Scotland. Perhaps the reason the Executive was so keen that this debate should be kept short was that it hoped that we would not see what is not in the document.

The Executive's documents state boldly that the action plan, the means, the mechanism and the structure by which we will eradicate the evil that is poverty in this, the seventh richest country in the world, will not be discussed until the spring. It is arrogant at best—hurtful at worst—to build up in the press the hopes of a third of this country's people and then to deliver nothing more than a glossy document as a panacea for the nation's ills.

The sentiment is laudable; the content is negligible. Having read the documents and listened to what passed for a ministerial speech, I have no doubt that many in the chamber were overcome with warm feelings of expectation, only to have them dashed when they asked difficult questions such as \"Who?\", \"By what amount?\" or \"By what means?\"

Let us be specific—about fuel poverty, for example. Some 2,000 deaths in Scotland each winter are totally preventable. There is no requirement for modern medicines—our pensioners die each winter simply because they cannot heat their homes. The document says nothing about that.

On benefit sanctions, I give the example of a pensioner who, with an income a mere 20p over the threshold, was deprived of benefit assistance following Government intervention. Will the minister confirm whether the Government has finally abandoned the universal state pension, which everyone has already paid for under the contract made between a Labour Government and the people of this country? How many pensioners will be above the means-test level in 20 years? Will a group of pensioners who fail the means test be left to live on £64.70? Will the Executive monitor any of those injustices? It seems not.

It is unacceptable for the minister to hide behind schedule 5 of the Scotland Act 1998. She knows, I

know and everyone here knows that, without reference to the Benefits Agency, the Executive's pretend assault on poverty is doomed to failure. The inadequacy of the devolution settlement is starkly highlighted in the area of social security and benefits. It is a delusion to believe that the third of people in Scotland who are in receipt of benefit, the third of people who suffer poverty, can have their circumstances altered for the better without the responsibility for social security, housing benefit and pensions resting in this chamber.

Poverty is caused by an unequal distribution of power, resources and opportunities in society. This afternoon, we have seen no greater illustration of poverty than the minister's statement—not the poverty that afflicts a third of the people of this country, but a poverty of ideas. The Executive is intellectually bankrupt.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6232703+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C712165", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 180.0, "ContributionID": 712165, "EditedText": "That is out of order.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is out of order.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6232703+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C712168", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 186.0, "ContributionID": 712168, "EditedText": "As you know, Mr McLetchie, that is entirely up to her. Please continue, minister.", "EditedTextHTML": "As you know, Mr McLetchie, that is entirely up to her. Please continue, minister.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5607365+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1996E124P211C712169", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAveety, Mr Frank", "ID": 1996, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Shettleston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Local Government", "SpeakerName": "Frank McAveety", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McAveety: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 188.0, "ContributionID": 712169, "EditedText": "On a point of order. Is it in order for members to shout \"Lies\" across the chamber?", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. Is it in order for members to shout \"Lies\" across the chamber?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5607365+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C712170", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 190.0, "ContributionID": 712170, "EditedText": "I remind all members that it is not appropriate for them to address one another across the chamber. That is the point that I was making.", "EditedTextHTML": "I remind all members that it is not appropriate for them to address one another across the chamber. That is the point that I was making.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5607365+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1873E89P171C712184", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jackson, Dr Sylvia", "ID": 1873, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Stirling" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sylvia Jackson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Sylvia Jackson (Stirling) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 220.0, "ContributionID": 712184, "EditedText": "Last weekend, the Scottish Land Reform Convention met in Stirling. Scottish Environment LINK and Scottish Churches still feel that there has not been as much consultation in this phase as there might have been. Can the minister reassure those organisations that there will still be time for consultation in the later stages?", "EditedTextHTML": "Last weekend, the Scottish Land Reform Convention met in Stirling. Scottish Environment LINK and Scottish Churches still feel that there has not been as much consultation in this phase as there might have been. Can the minister reassure those organisations that there will still be time for consultation in the later stages?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5607365+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1863E284P532C712195", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Cunningham, Roseanna", "ID": 1863, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Perth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Roseanna Cunningham", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Roseanna Cunningham: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 243.0, "ContributionID": 712195, "EditedText": "With respect—", "EditedTextHTML": "With respect—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5607365+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1863E284P532C712191", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Cunningham, Roseanna", "ID": 1863, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Perth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Roseanna Cunningham", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Roseanna Cunningham (Perth) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 235.0, "ContributionID": 712191, "EditedText": "I, too, welcome the opportunity to debate this matter in the Scottish Parliament. I recall debates at Westminster, after I was elected in 1995, which were almost always on an adjournment motion. Certainly, in my recollection, they were always at the instigation of the SNP. Over 25 years, the SNP has consistently campaigned on land reform. Its overriding principles have always been crystal clear: to maximise access for all the people of Scotland; to accept that the land of Scotland is a major resource; to commit ourselves to removing the medieval feudal tenure system; and to give communities throughout Scotland direct involvement in decisions that affect land. It is clear that there is a broad area of consensus within which the debate has taken place, although I was somewhat dispirited when I read the Tory amendment, which is entirely negative and offers nothing at all constructive to the debate. I shall listen with interest—and, no doubt, incredulity—to what a Tory policy of land reform might include. I understand that Alex Johnstone has been on the airwaves this lunch time, announcing with due solemnity that there is no demand for land reform in Scotland. Frankly, that is an unbelievable statement for him to have made. It suggests that the Tories have lost touch not only with Scotland but with reality. When the SNP set up its land commission, in 1995, it spent two years taking evidence from around Scotland, north and south, in city and in country. The commission had only to advertise a session for it to be inundated with people and organisations who were clamouring to be heard on the subject, the vast majority of whom were perfectly sure that reform was necessary. There may be some differences between the approaches of the SNP, Labour and the Liberal Democrats, but at least on the issue of land reform we share an awareness of the demands of ordinary people throughout Scotland. That is more than can be said for the Conservative party. Tories aside, there is a broad consensus on issues such as recreational access, even if the SNP's view is that it might have been preferable to have dealt with that in a separate piece of legislation. However, it is better that it is dealt with in the land reform bill than not at all. Similarly, the three parties—perhaps I should say the five parties—in this Parliament that are committed to reform have much in common on the future expansion and development of crofting, short-term farming tenancies, more readily accessible information and a nationwide land information system. We share the desire to end the outdated controls inherent in the feudal system. The sweeping away of the nonsense of superiors and vassals is a fitting way in which to greet the 21st century.", "EditedTextHTML": "I, too, welcome the opportunity to debate this matter in the Scottish Parliament. I recall debates at Westminster, after I was elected in 1995, which were almost always on an adjournment motion. Certainly, in my recollection, they were always at the instigation of the SNP. Over 25 years, the SNP has consistently campaigned on land reform. Its overriding principles have always been crystal clear: to maximise access for all the people of Scotland; to accept that the land of Scotland is a major resource; to commit ourselves to removing the medieval feudal tenure system; and to give communities throughout Scotland direct involvement in decisions that affect land.

It is clear that there is a broad area of consensus within which the debate has taken place, although I was somewhat dispirited when I read the Tory amendment, which is entirely negative and offers nothing at all constructive to the debate. I shall listen with interest—and, no doubt, incredulity—to what a Tory policy of land reform might include. I understand that Alex Johnstone has been on the airwaves this lunch time, announcing with due solemnity that there is no demand for land reform in Scotland. Frankly, that is an unbelievable statement for him to have made. It suggests that the Tories have lost touch not only with Scotland but with reality.

When the SNP set up its land commission, in 1995, it spent two years taking evidence from around Scotland, north and south, in city and in country. The commission had only to advertise a session for it to be inundated with people and

organisations who were clamouring to be heard on the subject, the vast majority of whom were perfectly sure that reform was necessary. There may be some differences between the approaches of the SNP, Labour and the Liberal Democrats, but at least on the issue of land reform we share an awareness of the demands of ordinary people throughout Scotland. That is more than can be said for the Conservative party.

Tories aside, there is a broad consensus on issues such as recreational access, even if the SNP's view is that it might have been preferable to have dealt with that in a separate piece of legislation. However, it is better that it is dealt with in the land reform bill than not at all. Similarly, the three parties—perhaps I should say the five parties—in this Parliament that are committed to reform have much in common on the future expansion and development of crofting, short-term farming tenancies, more readily accessible information and a nationwide land information system.

We share the desire to end the outdated controls inherent in the feudal system. The sweeping away of the nonsense of superiors and vassals is a fitting way in which to greet the 21st century.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5607365+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C712192", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 237.0, "ContributionID": 712192, "EditedText": "If Roseanna Cunningham is so keen on sweeping away the nonsense in the feudal system, will she condemn the actions of the SNP-controlled council in Kinross, which is acting as a feudal superior and charging people £50 plus VAT to extend their porches or extend their windows?", "EditedTextHTML": "If Roseanna Cunningham is so keen on sweeping away the nonsense in the feudal system, will she condemn the actions of the SNP-controlled council in Kinross, which is acting as a feudal superior and charging people £50 plus VAT to extend their porches or extend their windows?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5607365+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1893E47P78C712200", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnstone, Alex", "ID": 1893, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Johnstone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Johnstone: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 254.0, "ContributionID": 712200, "EditedText": "No, not at this point.That poses the question: why is the proposed land reform legislation to be imposed not only on the Highlands and Islands, for which it might seem to have been designed, but on the whole of rural Scotland? I have found no evidence of any powerful consensus for change among those who live and work in the countryside. Where I come from, nothing could be further from people's minds. I believe that this is another shaming example of legislation being imposed on rural populations that have not asked for it by Scotland's urban-based political majority, for political rather than practical reasons.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, not at this point.

That poses the question: why is the proposed land reform legislation to be imposed not only on the Highlands and Islands, for which it might seem to have been designed, but on the whole of rural Scotland? I have found no evidence of any powerful consensus for change among those who live and work in the countryside. Where I come from, nothing could be further from people's minds. I believe that this is another shaming example of legislation being imposed on rural populations that have not asked for it by Scotland's urban-based political majority, for political rather than practical reasons.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5607365+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C712201", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Jim Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 256.0, "ContributionID": 712201, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5607365+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2140E187P335C712207", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Rumbles, Mike", "ID": 2140, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Rumbles", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Mike Rumbles (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD) rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 268.0, "ContributionID": 712207, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5607365+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1863E284P532C712211", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Cunningham, Roseanna", "ID": 1863, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Perth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Roseanna Cunningham", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Roseanna Cunningham: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 276.0, "ContributionID": 712211, "EditedText": "Will the member give way? Or is he afraid to?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way? Or is he afraid to?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5607365+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1893E47P78C712213", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnstone, Alex", "ID": 1893, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Johnstone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Johnstone: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 280.0, "ContributionID": 712213, "EditedText": "We are very tight for time, but all right.", "EditedTextHTML": "We are very tight for time, but all right.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5607365+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1863E284P532C712214", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Cunningham, Roseanna", "ID": 1863, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Perth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Roseanna Cunningham", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Roseanna Cunningham: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 282.0, "ContributionID": 712214, "EditedText": "Thank you. I want to put a simple question to Alex Johnstone; I have asked him before, and I will ask him again. Despite all the negativity we are getting, I think that we would all like to hear what Tory land reform proposals sound like. Will the member tell us?", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you. I want to put a simple question to Alex Johnstone; I have asked him before, and I will ask him again. Despite all the negativity we are getting, I think that we would all like to hear what Tory land reform proposals sound like. Will the member tell us?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5607365+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C712217", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 288.0, "ContributionID": 712217, "EditedText": "Will the member give way? I have a small question.", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way? I have a small question.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5607365+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1893E47P78C712220", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnstone, Alex", "ID": 1893, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Johnstone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Johnstone: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 294.0, "ContributionID": 712220, "EditedText": "Some of the largest landowners in Scotland are also some of the best. A large proportion of landowners in Scotland are small landowners such as myself.", "EditedTextHTML": "Some of the largest landowners in Scotland are also some of the best. A large proportion of landowners in Scotland are small landowners such as myself.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5607365+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1893E47P78C712222", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnstone, Alex", "ID": 1893, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Johnstone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Johnstone: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 298.0, "ContributionID": 712222, "EditedText": "If we were to put across views in the way that Mr Sheridan would, we would be giving way to some of the prejudices that exist in this debate. I have said at length that, in my experience, there is not a powerful consensus for change. The part of the land reform white paper that has caused the most debate is section 7, which relates to access. The importance of access cannot be overstated, but it concerns many people that it has appeared as an appendage to the paper on community ownership. Although the principle of the right of informal access to Scotland's hills and unenclosed land is widely accepted and already practised throughout much of the country, the suggestion that the right should be extended to enclosed land is unjustified and no good argument for it has been proposed.", "EditedTextHTML": "If we were to put across views in the way that Mr Sheridan would, we would be giving way to some of the prejudices that exist in this debate.

I have said at length that, in my experience, there is not a powerful consensus for change. The part of the land reform white paper that has caused the most debate is section 7, which relates to access. The importance of access cannot be overstated, but it concerns many people that it has appeared as an appendage to the paper on community ownership. Although the principle of the right of informal access to Scotland's hills and unenclosed land is widely accepted and already practised throughout much of the country, the suggestion that the right should be extended to enclosed land is unjustified and no good argument for it has been proposed.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5607365+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C712223", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 300.0, "ContributionID": 712223, "EditedText": "You have just one minute left, Mr Johnstone.", "EditedTextHTML": "You have just one minute left, Mr Johnstone.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5607365+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1893E47P78C712224", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnstone, Alex", "ID": 1893, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Johnstone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Johnstone: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 302.0, "ContributionID": 712224, "EditedText": "Scotland is truly a beautiful place. I believe that our landscape is a natural treasure that should belong to all Scotland's people equally, but I am a farmer and I have grave concerns about how we progress on the issue of access to enclosed land.", "EditedTextHTML": "Scotland is truly a beautiful place. I believe that our landscape is a natural treasure that should belong to all Scotland's people equally, but I am a farmer and I have grave concerns about how we progress on the issue of access to enclosed land.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5607365+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2140E187P335C712225", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Rumbles, Mike", "ID": 2140, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Rumbles", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Rumbles: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 304.0, "ContributionID": 712225, "EditedText": "Will Mr Johnstone give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr Johnstone give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5607365+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1893E47P78C712226", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnstone, Alex", "ID": 1893, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Johnstone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Johnstone: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 306.0, "ContributionID": 712226, "EditedText": "I will not give way at this point.It appears that the Executive intends to follow the recommendations of the access forum, believing that they represent a consensus among all interested parties. However, I have met people from organisations that were not involved in the access forum and their concerns have not been included in its considerations. Although there are no doubt many people who will argue that the duty of responsible access mentioned in the white paper will solve many of the potential problems, there are no suggestions on how it might be policed. The expectations raised by the new legislation will not be balanced by efforts to control what many may see as an opportunity to run about all over the countryside. I feel that that imbalance must be addressed.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will not give way at this point.

It appears that the Executive intends to follow the recommendations of the access forum, believing that they represent a consensus among all interested parties. However, I have met people from organisations that were not involved in the access forum and their concerns have not been included in its considerations.

Although there are no doubt many people who will argue that the duty of responsible access mentioned in the white paper will solve many of the potential problems, there are no suggestions on how it might be policed. The expectations raised by the new legislation will not be balanced by efforts to control what many may see as an opportunity to run about all over the countryside. I feel that that imbalance must be addressed.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5607365+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C712228", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 310.0, "ContributionID": 712228, "EditedText": "That is what he is doing; he is winding us up.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is what he is doing; he is winding us up.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5607365+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1893E47P78C712229", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnstone, Alex", "ID": 1893, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Johnstone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Johnstone: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 312.0, "ContributionID": 712229, "EditedText": "Ach, come on. There is one other issue that I would like to raise at this point.", "EditedTextHTML": "Ach, come on. There is one other issue that I would like to raise at this point.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5607365+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C712230", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 314.0, "ContributionID": 712230, "EditedText": "Do so very briefly, please.", "EditedTextHTML": "Do so very briefly, please.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5607365+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1893E47P78C712234", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnstone, Alex", "ID": 1893, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Johnstone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Johnstone: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 322.0, "ContributionID": 712234, "EditedText": "Finally, I want to ask the minister whether, given concern in rural Scotland about access, due consideration will be given to treating access as a separate and distinct bill to the one on community ownership. I move amendment S1M-313.1, to leave out from \"commends\" to end and insert: \"recognises that the problems facing our rural communities and way of life will not be solved by land reform and calls upon the Scottish Executive to recognise the fact that many of the proposals contained in the Land Reform Action Plan will have a damaging effect on the rural economy.\"", "EditedTextHTML": "Finally, I want to ask the minister whether, given concern in rural Scotland about access, due consideration will be given to treating access as a separate and distinct bill to the one on community ownership.

I move amendment S1M-313.1, to leave out from \"commends\" to end and insert:

\"recognises that the problems facing our rural communities and way of life will not be solved by land reform and calls upon the Scottish Executive to recognise the fact that many of the proposals contained in the Land Reform Action Plan will have a damaging effect on the rural economy.\"

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5607365+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C712235", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 324.0, "ContributionID": 712235, "EditedText": "Fifteen members have indicated a desire to speak. I will therefore strictly limit speeches to four minutes. I call Rhoda Grant.", "EditedTextHTML": "Fifteen members have indicated a desire to speak. I will therefore strictly limit speeches to four minutes. I call Rhoda Grant.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5607365+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1876E194P490C712239", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Marwick, Tricia", "ID": 1876, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tricia Marwick", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tricia Marwick: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 334.0, "ContributionID": 712239, "EditedText": "Much more than is cultivated at present. Shelter Scotland has said that that concentration gives a small number of landowners a prominence that is unmatched in any other European country. I am pleased that the Executive is considering legislation to give communities powers to purchase land when it comes up for sale. However, what about the communities that need only a handful of affordable new houses to prevent youngsters from having to sleep in caravans? I welcome the minister's commitment to examine whether community organisations will be able to register an interest, which is particularly important for housing associations, but I would like a more explicit guarantee that housing associations and those who seek to build houses in rural Scotland will be given registration. I urge the minister to allow organisations that act on behalf of communities to be able to bid for parcels of land that can be made available to the community as housing needs arise. If we cannot use land reform legislation to secure access to housing; if we cannot resolve the situation in which 10,000 houses in the Highlands and Islands lie empty and 9,000 people are on lengthening housing lists; and if land reform cannot meet the most basic need of our fellow citizens—housing— this Parliament will have failed.", "EditedTextHTML": "Much more than is cultivated at present.

Shelter Scotland has said that that concentration gives a small number of landowners a prominence that is unmatched in any other European country.

I am pleased that the Executive is considering legislation to give communities powers to purchase land when it comes up for sale. However, what about the communities that need only a handful of affordable new houses to prevent youngsters from having to sleep in caravans? I welcome the minister's commitment to examine whether community organisations will be able to register an interest, which is particularly important for housing associations, but I would like a more explicit guarantee that housing associations and those who seek to build houses in rural Scotland will be given registration.

I urge the minister to allow organisations that act on behalf of communities to be able to bid for parcels of land that can be made available to the community as housing needs arise. If we cannot use land reform legislation to secure access to housing; if we cannot resolve the situation in which 10,000 houses in the Highlands and Islands lie empty and 9,000 people are on lengthening housing lists; and if land reform cannot meet the most basic need of our fellow citizens—housing— this Parliament will have failed.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5607365+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C712243", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 344.0, "ContributionID": 712243, "EditedText": "I am concerned about the amount of legislation that is envisaged in the land reform proposals. Consider the plight of the rural community now. I believe that many of the proposals will create problems for landowners and farmers, whether they be owners or tenant farmers, when the rural economy is in crisis. If the minister is examining the rural economy, he should consider issues other than land reform. Consider the courts, for example. The Labour Government has hurtled us into a situation where European law rules in the justice system in Scotland. I have fears about the problems that will arise from the European Court of Human Rights. The problems that we have seen so far are the tip of an iceberg. All kinds of problems will build up if land reforms are implemented.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am concerned about the amount of legislation that is envisaged in the land reform proposals. Consider the plight of the rural community now. I believe that many of the proposals will create problems for landowners and farmers, whether they be owners or tenant farmers, when the rural economy is in crisis.

If the minister is examining the rural economy, he should consider issues other than land reform. Consider the courts, for example. The Labour Government has hurtled us into a situation where European law rules in the justice system in Scotland. I have fears about the problems that will arise from the European Court of Human Rights. The problems that we have seen so far are the tip of an iceberg.

All kinds of problems will build up if land reforms are implemented.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5607365+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C712245", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 348.0, "ContributionID": 712245, "EditedText": "I would certainly expect compensation, but whose level of compensation? Will it be a market value level or a level of compensation set by civil servants in Edinburgh? That is an important question, which I am sure the European Court of Human Rights will consider and determine.", "EditedTextHTML": "I would certainly expect compensation, but whose level of compensation? Will it be a market value level or a level of compensation set by civil servants in Edinburgh? That is an important question, which I am sure the European Court of Human Rights will consider and determine.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5607365+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C712246", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 350.0, "ContributionID": 712246, "EditedText": "Wind up please, Mr Gallie.", "EditedTextHTML": "Wind up please, Mr Gallie.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5607365+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1990E181P340C712255", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robson, Euan", "ID": 1990, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Roxburgh and Berwickshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Euan Robson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Euan Robson (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 374.0, "ContributionID": 712255, "EditedText": "I refer to the \"Register of Members' Interests\"—I am a Tweed commissioner. The Deputy First Minister said that land reform had not been on the agenda for about 75 years. I think that it was Lloyd George who last introduced it. Today, nobody should be in any doubt that the process of reform is under way. Jim Wallace referred to the Executive's actions over the summer, such as the opening of the Scottish Enterprise community land unit, and community commitments by Forest Enterprise, Scottish Natural Heritage and the Crown Estate. I welcome the early introduction of the Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill. Its explanatory notes say that it will abolish 46 entire acts, 246 sections and 57 schedules to other acts. Alone, that is a major updating of Scots law. I am not persuaded by an argument that is being canvassed that the bill should retain the feudal superiority of the Crown. The feudal system cannot be abolished just by taking out strata below the Crown. It is unclear what powers or rights the Crown might exercise, especially as its prerogative rights are untouched by the bill. Why is the Crown more appropriate in this context than this Parliament or local authorities, through the planning process? In section 65 of the bill there is a proposal to prohibit commercial leases of more than 125 years. Although a balance has to be struck, I am persuaded that leases should be allowed to run for up to 200 years, otherwise there is a risk that the Scottish commercial property sector could be disadvantaged compared with that in England. Perhaps the minister will comment on that in his summing up. Liberal Democrats will, of course, support the leasehold casualties bill. We are also in favour of creating national parks, but only after detailed local consultation in the areas to be designated and with the assurance that community and economic interests—in particular those of farmers—will continue to be involved. I recognise that the bill will be of an enabling nature, but I look for the inclusion of such appropriate safeguards. On community right to buy and access, I believe that there is a need for legislation to establish the right to buy. That legislation will stimulate change and—as Tricia Marwick mentioned—housing development, which is important in many rural areas. It will also stimulate economic development, especially in the Highlands and the north of Scotland. Today's announcement on crofting is welcome; my colleague John Farquhar Munro also mentioned that. As the Deputy First Minister knows—I never tire of telling him—we must not fix a problem in the north and create another in the south. The safeguards on community purchase that the minister announced today should go a long way to frustrate cherry-picking on estates. I welcome those proposals.", "EditedTextHTML": "I refer to the \"Register of Members' Interests\"—I am a Tweed commissioner.

The Deputy First Minister said that land reform had not been on the agenda for about 75 years. I think that it was Lloyd George who last introduced it. Today, nobody should be in any doubt that the process of reform is under way. Jim Wallace referred to the Executive's actions over the summer, such as the opening of the Scottish Enterprise community land unit, and community commitments by Forest Enterprise, Scottish Natural Heritage and the Crown Estate. I welcome the early introduction of the Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill. Its explanatory notes say that it will abolish 46 entire acts, 246 sections and 57 schedules to other acts. Alone, that is a major updating of Scots law.

I am not persuaded by an argument that is being canvassed that the bill should retain the feudal superiority of the Crown. The feudal system cannot be abolished just by taking out strata below the Crown. It is unclear what powers or rights the Crown might exercise, especially as its prerogative rights are untouched by the bill. Why is the Crown more appropriate in this context than this Parliament or local authorities, through the planning process?

In section 65 of the bill there is a proposal to prohibit commercial leases of more than 125 years. Although a balance has to be struck, I am persuaded that leases should be allowed to run for up to 200 years, otherwise there is a risk that the Scottish commercial property sector could be disadvantaged compared with that in England.

Perhaps the minister will comment on that in his summing up.

Liberal Democrats will, of course, support the leasehold casualties bill. We are also in favour of creating national parks, but only after detailed local consultation in the areas to be designated and with the assurance that community and economic interests—in particular those of farmers—will continue to be involved. I recognise that the bill will be of an enabling nature, but I look for the inclusion of such appropriate safeguards.

On community right to buy and access, I believe that there is a need for legislation to establish the right to buy. That legislation will stimulate change and—as Tricia Marwick mentioned—housing development, which is important in many rural areas. It will also stimulate economic development, especially in the Highlands and the north of Scotland.

Today's announcement on crofting is welcome; my colleague John Farquhar Munro also mentioned that. As the Deputy First Minister knows—I never tire of telling him—we must not fix a problem in the north and create another in the south. The safeguards on community purchase that the minister announced today should go a long way to frustrate cherry-picking on estates. I welcome those proposals.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5763611+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1888E265P358C712263", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morgan, Alasdair", "ID": 1888, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Galloway and Upper Nithsdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morgan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alasdair Morgan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 392.0, "ContributionID": 712263, "EditedText": "No, I am sorry. Phil's speech contained so much good material to cover that I do not have time to give way. The Conservatives are saying that everything was fine up to 1 May 1997 and that we would not need to legislate on this issue if we could go back to those halcyon days. Phil Gallie also complained about the burden of legislation—a familiar story from Conservatives here and at Westminster. Rules might not be perfect the first time round and might have to be honed after experience. The Conservatives used the same argument against the introduction of the minimum wage; indeed, I suspect that their forebears in the 19th century used the same argument against the Factory Acts.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I am sorry. Phil's speech contained so much good material to cover that I do not have time to give way.

The Conservatives are saying that everything was fine up to 1 May 1997 and that we would not need to legislate on this issue if we could go back to those halcyon days. Phil Gallie also complained about the burden of legislation—a familiar story from Conservatives here and at Westminster. Rules might not be perfect the first time round and might have to be honed after experience. The Conservatives used the same argument against the introduction of the minimum wage; indeed, I suspect that their forebears in the 19th century used the same argument against the Factory Acts.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5763611+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1888E265P358C712265", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morgan, Alasdair", "ID": 1888, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Galloway and Upper Nithsdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morgan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alasdair Morgan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 396.0, "ContributionID": 712265, "EditedText": "I am glad that Mr McLetchie can remember that far back. Roseanna Cunningham mentioned the need for wider community involvement and was rightly sceptical about voluntary codes. Problems exist because voluntary codes have simply not worked. What happens when a community does not wish to or cannot form the kind of trust envisaged in the legislation? That does not mean that that community does not have problems or genuine concerns. I was glad when Allan Wilson referred to the unlikelihood of communities acting hypothetically. One or two aspects of the proposals need some attention. There is not a big turnover of land in many land holdings and there can be a substantial length of time between sales. Roseanna Cunningham alluded to the fact that 25 per cent of holdings of more than 1,000 acres have been in the same family for more than 400 years. In the Highlands, 50 per cent of private land has not been exposed for sale since the war and 25 per cent has not been exposed this century. The legislation would not bite in such circumstances. How can one keep a community trust—this hypothetical interest—going when it might be another 400 years before it has a chance to exercise its rights? We need to address the difficulties that may arise with cherry picking. The minister said that, where agreement could not be reached, purchase would have to be made on the basis of the land as lotted. Not being a lawyer, I was not clear about what that meant—perhaps Angus MacKay will address that point in his summing-up. We have some worries about the definition of community. Jim Wallace went some way towards allaying those worries when he said that a community could also indicate an interest in adjacent land. I take that to mean land on which people in the community do not live or work. That would be a helpful extension as, clearly, communities may have significant interests in land on which only a few people in those communities work or live. Tricia Marwick spoke about second homes and the housing shortage. There is a need for some action on that issue. Whether housing associations could indicate an interest in land was a good point to raise, as the housing shortage is of great concern to rural communities and needs to be addressed. The land database has not been covered in this debate. Neither the white paper nor the progress report are particularly helpful on it. We need to know in much more detail, and within a reasonable time scale, what will happen about a land database that can tell us who owns what in Scotland. We have a once-in-a-lifetime chance—it is certainly a once-in-a-decade chance. Although we have a new Parliament, the opportunities to legislate on this issue will be limited. We will not be able to come back in a year and legislate again, so we have to make an impact this time. Although we must allow sensible amendments to the legislation, we must not throw the baby out with the bath water. I urge members to support our amendment, which, I believe, merits their support.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am glad that Mr McLetchie can remember that far back.

Roseanna Cunningham mentioned the need for wider community involvement and was rightly sceptical about voluntary codes. Problems exist because voluntary codes have simply not worked. What happens when a community does not wish to or cannot form the kind of trust envisaged in the legislation? That does not mean that that community does not have problems or genuine concerns. I was glad when Allan Wilson referred to the unlikelihood of communities acting hypothetically.

One or two aspects of the proposals need some attention. There is not a big turnover of land in many land holdings and there can be a substantial length of time between sales. Roseanna Cunningham alluded to the fact that 25 per cent of holdings of more than 1,000 acres have been in the same family for more than 400 years. In the Highlands, 50 per cent of private land has not been exposed for sale since the war and 25 per cent has not been exposed this century. The legislation would not bite in such circumstances. How can one keep a community trust—this hypothetical interest—going when it might be another 400 years before it has a chance to exercise its rights?

We need to address the difficulties that may arise with cherry picking. The minister said that, where agreement could not be reached, purchase would have to be made on the basis of the land as lotted. Not being a lawyer, I was not clear about what that meant—perhaps Angus MacKay will address that point in his summing-up.

We have some worries about the definition of community. Jim Wallace went some way towards allaying those worries when he said that a community could also indicate an interest in adjacent land. I take that to mean land on which people in the community do not live or work. That would be a helpful extension as, clearly, communities may have significant interests in land on which only a few people in those communities work or live.

Tricia Marwick spoke about second homes and the housing shortage. There is a need for some action on that issue. Whether housing associations could indicate an interest in land was a good point to raise, as the housing shortage is of great concern to rural communities and needs to be addressed.

The land database has not been covered in this debate. Neither the white paper nor the progress report are particularly helpful on it. We need to know in much more detail, and within a reasonable time scale, what will happen about a land database that can tell us who owns what in Scotland.

We have a once-in-a-lifetime chance—it is certainly a once-in-a-decade chance. Although we have a new Parliament, the opportunities to legislate on this issue will be limited. We will not be able to come back in a year and legislate again, so we have to make an impact this time. Although we must allow sensible amendments to the legislation, we must not throw the baby out with the bath water. I urge members to support our amendment, which, I believe, merits their support.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5763611+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C712266", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Justice (Angus MacKay): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 399.0, "ContributionID": 712266, "EditedText": "The debate has given us all the opportunity to discuss the range of legislative and non-legislative measures that the Executive is bringing forward and the action that is covered by the land reform action plan. There are clearly many aspects to our policy—its cumulative impact will be significant. This debate has been an excellent chance for the Executive to bring MSPs up to date with our wide-ranging proposals, but it has also been a valuable and informative opportunity to listen to the concerns and suggestions of MSPs from all parties. It is worth stressing that there is no imposition in the legislation, which concerns a community's right to buy land where it becomes available. The decision to purchase the land will be subject to ballot. It is wholly wrong to suggest that the legislation will impose anything on any rural community. That lie has to be nailed here and now. I was highly amused by the Conservative member—it may have been Phil Gallie; it often is—who left us with the image of central belt tykes with their Rottweilers and bad habits straining at the starter's pistol to disappear into the country and pollute the Highlands and Islands under this new, responsible right of access. The notion that this legislation will force people out of cities in the central belt to cause all sorts of mischief in the rural, remote parts of Scotland is a fallacy. The legislation is about a responsible right of access. It is about codifying what happens currently. It makes it clear to landowners and those who want to walk and have sensible recreation in the countryside what they are fairly allowed to do and what is expected of them.", "EditedTextHTML": "The debate has given us all the opportunity to discuss the range of legislative and non-legislative measures that the Executive is bringing forward and the action that is covered by the land reform action plan. There are clearly many aspects to our policy—its cumulative impact will be significant.

This debate has been an excellent chance for the Executive to bring MSPs up to date with our wide-ranging proposals, but it has also been a valuable and informative opportunity to listen to the concerns and suggestions of MSPs from all parties.

It is worth stressing that there is no imposition in the legislation, which concerns a community's right to buy land where it becomes available. The decision to purchase the land will be subject to ballot. It is wholly wrong to suggest that the legislation will impose anything on any rural community. That lie has to be nailed here and now.

I was highly amused by the Conservative member—it may have been Phil Gallie; it often is—who left us with the image of central belt tykes with their Rottweilers and bad habits straining at the starter's pistol to disappear into the country and pollute the Highlands and Islands under this new, responsible right of access. The notion that this legislation will force people out of cities in the central belt to cause all sorts of mischief in the rural, remote parts of Scotland is a fallacy. The legislation is about a responsible right of access. It is about codifying what happens currently. It makes it clear to landowners and those who want to walk and have sensible recreation in the countryside what they are fairly allowed to do and what is expected of them.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5763611+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C712269", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Monteith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 405.0, "ContributionID": 712269, "EditedText": "Will that right to buy be extended to many of the absentee crofters whom I know, who live and work in Edinburgh?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will that right to buy be extended to many of the absentee crofters whom I know, who live and work in Edinburgh?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5763611+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C712271", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 409.0, "ContributionID": 712271, "EditedText": "Will the minister give us an assurance that he will reject the old Labour socialist nationalisation ethic that the SNP amendment represents?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give us an assurance that he will reject the old Labour socialist nationalisation ethic that the SNP amendment represents?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5763611+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C712272", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Angus MacKay: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 411.0, "ContributionID": 712272, "EditedText": "I do not think that I can give that assurance, as I do not fully understand the question. Roseanna Cunningham expressed the concern that the codes of practice were to be introduced only by the end of 2000. That is the correct time scale. A clear message that emerged from the land reform policy group's consultation was that the land use codes should be subject to full consultation. We are trying to stand by our commitment to that and it is that timetable that dictates how early we will be able to introduce the codes. It is important that local consultation influences the land use code of practice. That will take time, but I am happy to give an assurance that there will be no unnecessary delays. Roseanna Cunningham also asked where the money to support the legislation would come from. I think that she was saying that lottery money was not acceptable, but I was not entirely clear on that point and I do not want to misrepresent her views. We were asked whether it was appropriate for money from tax payers or—more appropriate in this case—from lottery players to be used on the community right to buy. I believe that if British lottery players' money can be properly used to purchase the Churchill papers, it can certainly be properly used to facilitate communities' right to buy in Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not think that I can give that assurance, as I do not fully understand the question.

Roseanna Cunningham expressed the concern that the codes of practice were to be introduced only by the end of 2000. That is the correct time scale. A clear message that emerged from the land reform policy group's consultation was that the land use codes should be subject to full consultation. We are trying to stand by our commitment to that and it is that timetable that dictates how early we will be able to introduce the codes. It is important that local consultation influences the land use code of practice. That will take time, but I am happy to give an assurance that there will be no unnecessary delays.

Roseanna Cunningham also asked where the money to support the legislation would come from. I think that she was saying that lottery money was not acceptable, but I was not entirely clear on that point and I do not want to misrepresent her views.

We were asked whether it was appropriate for money from tax payers or—more appropriate in this case—from lottery players to be used on the community right to buy. I believe that if British lottery players' money can be properly used to purchase the Churchill papers, it can certainly be properly used to facilitate communities' right to buy in Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5763611+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1863E284P532C712273", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Cunningham, Roseanna", "ID": 1863, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Perth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Roseanna Cunningham", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Roseanna Cunningham: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 413.0, "ContributionID": 712273, "EditedText": "The source of the money is not the issue; the control of the money is the problem.", "EditedTextHTML": "The source of the money is not the issue; the control of the money is the problem.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5763611+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C712277", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Subordinate Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27106, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 421.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 421.0, "ID": 27106, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Patricia Ferguson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 422.0, "ContributionID": 712277, "EditedText": "The next item of business is consideration of Parliamentary Bureau motion S1M-307. I ask Iain Smith to move that motion on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau.", "EditedTextHTML": "The next item of business is consideration of Parliamentary Bureau motion S1M-307. I ask Iain Smith to move that motion on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5763611+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2038E191P344C712278", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Subordinate Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27106, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 421.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 421.0, "ID": 27106, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Smith, Iain", "ID": 2038, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Iain Smith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Parliament (Iain Smith): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 424.0, "ContributionID": 712278, "EditedText": "The motion is rather dryly phrased, but the order will start to move the spending priorities of the Government towards those set out in the partnership agreement and the programme for government. It deals in particular with the £80 million of additional money for education. I move,That the Parliament agrees that the draft Scotland Act 1998 (Transitory and Transitional Provisions) (Appropriations) Amendment Order 1999 be approved.", "EditedTextHTML": "The motion is rather dryly phrased, but the order will start to move the spending priorities of the Government towards those set out in the partnership agreement and the programme for government. It deals in particular with the £80 million of additional money for education.

I move,

That the Parliament agrees that the draft Scotland Act 1998 (Transitory and Transitional Provisions) (Appropriations) Amendment Order 1999 be approved.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5763611+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C712279", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27107, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 426.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 426.0, "ID": 27107, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Patricia Ferguson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 428.0, "ContributionID": 712279, "EditedText": "There are seven questions to be put following today's business. The first question is, that amendment S1M-314.2, in the name of Mr Alex Salmond, seeking to amend motion S1M-314, in the name of Ms Wendy Alexander, on social justice targets, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "There are seven questions to be put following today's business. The first question is, that amendment S1M-314.2, in the name of Mr Alex Salmond, seeking to amend motion S1M-314, in the name of Ms Wendy Alexander, on social justice targets, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5763611+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712282", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27107, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 426.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 426.0, "ID": 27107, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 434.0, "ContributionID": 712282, "EditedText": "FOR Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)AGAINST Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)(LD)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)

AGAINST

Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)
(LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)

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" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5763611+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712290", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27107, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 426.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 426.0, "ID": 27107, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 447.0, "ContributionID": 712290, "EditedText": "Amendment disagreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment disagreed to.

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" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5763611+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C712293", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27107, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 426.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 426.0, "ID": 27107, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 452.0, "ContributionID": 712293, "EditedText": "There will be a division.", "EditedTextHTML": "There will be a division.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5763611+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712294", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27107, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 426.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 426.0, "ID": 27107, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 454.0, "ContributionID": 712294, "EditedText": "FOR Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)(LD)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)AGAINST Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)ABSTENTIONS Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)
(LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)

AGAINST

Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)

ABSTENTIONS

Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5763611+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712296", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27107, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 426.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 426.0, "ID": 27107, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 457.0, "ContributionID": 712296, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5763611+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C712298", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27107, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 426.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 426.0, "ID": 27107, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 459.0, "ContributionID": 712298, "EditedText": "The fourth question is, that amendment S1M-313.2, in the name of Mr Alex Salmond, which seeks to amend motion S1M-313, in the name of Mr Jim Wallace, on land reform, be agreed to. Are we agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "The fourth question is, that amendment S1M-313.2, in the name of Mr Alex Salmond, which seeks to amend motion S1M-313, in the name of Mr Jim Wallace, on land reform, be agreed to. Are we agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5763611+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712299", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27107, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 426.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 426.0, "ID": 27107, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 461.0, "ContributionID": 712299, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5763611+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C712302", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27107, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 426.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 426.0, "ID": 27107, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 466.0, "ContributionID": 712302, "EditedText": "The result of the division is: For 33, Against 82, Abstentions 0.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result of the division is: For 33, Against 82, Abstentions 0.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5763611+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712303", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27107, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 426.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 426.0, "ID": 27107, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 468.0, "ContributionID": 712303, "EditedText": "Amendment disagreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment disagreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5763611+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C712308", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27107, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 426.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 426.0, "ID": 27107, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 476.0, "ContributionID": 712308, "EditedText": "The result of the division is: For 18, Against 97, Abstentions 0.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result of the division is: For 18, Against 97, Abstentions 0.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5763611+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C712314", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27107, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 426.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 426.0, "ID": 27107, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 486.0, "ContributionID": 712314, "EditedText": "The result of the division is: For 62, Against 18, Abstentions 1.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result of the division is: For 62, Against 18, Abstentions 1.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5763611+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712316", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27107, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 426.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 426.0, "ID": 27107, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 489.0, "ContributionID": 712316, "EditedText": "That the Parliament commends the openness of the Scottish Executive's approach to land reform, as demonstrated by the extensive consultations on the Land Reform White Paper published in July; recognises the scale of their overall commitments to legislation and other action on land reform as set out in the Land Reform Action Plan published in August, and welcomes the progress to date as shown in the first Progress Report published earlier this month.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament commends the openness of the Scottish Executive's approach to land reform, as demonstrated by the extensive consultations on the Land Reform White Paper published in July; recognises the scale of their overall commitments to legislation and other action on land reform as set out in the Land Reform Action Plan published in August, and welcomes the progress to date as shown in the first Progress Report published earlier this month.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5763611+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712322", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tobacco Sales", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27108, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 494.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 494.0, "ID": 27108, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 498.0, "ContributionID": 712322, "EditedText": "That the Parliament notes that surveys by trading standards officers in North Ayrshire and the Borders indicate that tobacco continues to be sold to under-aged children; notes that those retailers who are successfully prosecuted are treated leniently; and supports the establishment of a system of negative licensing under the jurisdiction of local licensing boards, whereby retailers who repeatedly sell tobacco to young people will lose their right to sell age restricted products altogether.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament notes that surveys by trading standards officers in North Ayrshire and the Borders indicate that tobacco continues to be sold to under-aged children; notes that those retailers who are successfully prosecuted are treated leniently; and supports the establishment of a system of negative licensing under the jurisdiction of local licensing boards, whereby retailers who repeatedly sell tobacco to young people will lose their right to sell age restricted products altogether.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2029E47P167C712327", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tobacco Sales", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27108, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 494.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 494.0, "ID": 27108, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Henry, Hugh", "ID": 2029, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Hugh Henry", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Hugh Henry (Paisley South) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 512.0, "ContributionID": 712327, "EditedText": "Irene Oldfather is to be congratulated on introducing the motion. It identifies a serious problem and makes positive and succinct suggestions about how to tackle the problem. That is often lacking in our debates. It is appalling to find people who are prepared to sell cigarettes to under-age children simply to make a profit. It would be remiss of us to allow such a practice to continue in what we hope is a civilised and progressive society. We must protect our children from themselves and from people who are more interested in money.", "EditedTextHTML": "Irene Oldfather is to be congratulated on introducing the motion. It identifies a serious problem and makes positive and succinct suggestions about how to tackle the problem. That is often lacking in our debates.

It is appalling to find people who are prepared to sell cigarettes to under-age children simply to make a profit. It would be remiss of us to allow such a practice to continue in what we hope is a civilised and progressive society. We must protect our children from themselves and from people who are more interested in money.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2029E47P167C712329", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tobacco Sales", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27108, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 494.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 494.0, "ID": 27108, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Henry, Hugh", "ID": 2029, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Hugh Henry", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Hugh Henry: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 516.0, "ContributionID": 712329, "EditedText": "Absolutely, there is a range of outlets that we have to consider. We in this Parliament are proud of the fact that we have the opportunity to initiate legislation ahead of other parts of the United Kingdom, but this debate identifies an area in which we are behind other parts of the country. I hope that, following this debate, we can persuade the relevant committees, or the Scottish Executive, to take seriously the suggestions that Irene Oldfather and Richard Simpson have made and to propose changes. I have been impressed by the range of the Scottish Executive's proposals. It has shown its determination to improve the quality of life for people in Scotland. I am disturbed, however, that tobacco consumption and health is probably the one area of weakness in what has been considered. Irene Oldfather has suggested proposals that the Scottish Executive could take up to remedy that one weakness in the armour.", "EditedTextHTML": "Absolutely, there is a range of outlets that we have to consider.

We in this Parliament are proud of the fact that we have the opportunity to initiate legislation ahead of other parts of the United Kingdom, but this debate identifies an area in which we are behind other parts of the country.

I hope that, following this debate, we can persuade the relevant committees, or the Scottish Executive, to take seriously the suggestions that Irene Oldfather and Richard Simpson have made and to propose changes. I have been impressed by the range of the Scottish Executive's proposals. It has shown its determination to improve the quality of life for people in Scotland. I am disturbed, however, that tobacco consumption and health is probably the one area of weakness in what has been considered. Irene Oldfather has suggested proposals that the Scottish Executive could take up to remedy that one weakness in the armour.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C712332", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tobacco Sales", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27108, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 494.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 494.0, "ID": 27108, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 525.0, "ContributionID": 712332, "EditedText": "I will start by being unoriginal and congratulating Irene Oldfather on raising this issue. On a lighter note, the image of Ian Jenkins in a rhododendron bush will remain with me for a long time. The discussion has shown that we are agreed on the importance of the issue. In her opening remarks, Irene demonstrated very effectively that we must address two questions: why we need to tackle this issue and how we should tackle it. In the few minutes that are available to me, I will try to provide answers to both. In answer to the first question, it is worth reiterating the cost of smoking-related illness—first and foremost in terms of human suffering and human life and, secondly, in terms of health service resources. We estimate that around one in five deaths in Scotland is the result of smoking- related illness. That is 13,000 deaths every year. On top of that, we estimate that there are some 33,500 hospital admissions as a consequence of smoking-related illness. The cost to the health service is estimated at £140 million per annum. This Executive is determined to take action to deal with that. The second reason we need to address the issue concerns the Executive's particular commitment to the health of children and young people, which I support. Establishing how and why young people start smoking and taking action to ensure that they do not are crucial. That does not mean that we should not take action further down the line to help adults to stop smoking, but it is particularly important to find ways of stopping young people from starting in the first place. The issues that have been raised in this debate touch on that important point. I think Irene Oldfather made this point earlier, but I will reiterate it: we estimate that between 80 and 90 per cent of adults who smoke start smoking in their teens. We know that the first puff, be it behind the bike shed or in the rhododendron bush, can lead to a lifetime of addiction, then premature death. We will make a difference if we can stop that first puff. The third reason we have to do something is the Executive's commitment to taking particular action to help people in our most deprived communities, which Kenny Gibson touched on. Social justice— tackling social exclusion—is a central priority for the Executive. We know that the incidence of smoking is higher and that health is poorer in our deprived communities. We are determined to take steps that will improve the health of the poorest in society, as was outlined in the public health debate in September. I have said why we have to take action. How—I know that I am rushing—do we take that action? I say to Hugh Henry that we take this issue very seriously. I do not accept that our position is weak in any sense. I will outline briefly some of the steps that we are taking and intend to take. First, we need to address the issues that Brian Monteith raised: why people smoke, why they remain smokers and how they can be helped to stop smoking. That requires a sound analysis and policy basis. In the main, we have that. Many members will be familiar with the white paper, \"Smoking Kills\". It is inherited work, but I am happy to have it to hand in progressing this agenda. We have a strategy group in Scotland to oversee the measures outlined in the white paper. The group is actively addressing this issue and it is relevant for the group to address the suggestions and ideas that have been raised in this debate. The second step that we must take—this is all encompassed in the white paper—is to consider education and awareness, which is why the Executive's emphasis on working across departmental boundaries is so important. I cannot tackle education and awareness in isolation—I must work with education colleagues, for example, in considering how to get health messages across in our schools and in the other environments where young people are found. Health promotion messages are part of that awareness-raising exercise; conversely, they are also about reducing the promotion of tobacco. Tobacco advertising has been mentioned—and rightly. I reiterate the Executive's absolute commitment to a ban on tobacco advertising and sponsorship in Scotland. As members are aware, a legal challenge by the tobacco companies against the UK Government is taking place south of the border. Our considered opinion, as set out in my answer to a parliamentary question today, is that any move by us to lay regulations in Scotland would inevitably lead to similar litigation here. We will not move one step further down the road to achieving a ban unless and until those legal issues have been resolved. I assure members— on this occasion, I speak on behalf of the UK Government—that the UK Government is vigorously fighting that challenge in the courts. We are monitoring the situation carefully. Our commitment to introducing the EC directive on a ban of tobacco advertising and sponsorship is absolute and we will take that action as soon as we are able to. Enforcement has been covered fully. It is important to ensure that we reduce sales of tobacco to young people. There are many ways of doing that and I have placed no constraints on the strategy group that is progressing the white paper—I am more than happy for it to look at all the options. I am not convinced that a negative licensing scheme is the best way forward, nor am I convinced that another tier of regulation and bureaucracy is the most effective way of delivering that reduction. I find it odd saying that when Ben Wallace, of all people, is saying that, in this instance, regulation may be a good thing. I stress that I am happy for the strategy group to consider all suggestions. We are working closely with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities, the Association of Chief Police Officers in Scotland and trading standards officers to consider all available avenues. I suspect that my time is up; I have not been speaking for 33 minutes, but I may have been speaking for five. I shall draw together the strands of the issues on which I have touched. I welcome this discussion. There is no simple way to reduce smoking in Scotland, but we are committed to ensuring that we do and in our health targets—reiterated in our social justice targets, which were published today—we set ourselves the firm and demanding target of doing just that. We can do that only if we work together, both within the Parliament and with organisations outside it. We are determined to do that. Also, we can do it only if we work across our policy areas. On the day our social justice paper has been produced, I return to the issue of improving the health of the poorest in our society. If our poorest are to be healthier and happier, and are to lead more fulfilled lives, we have to tackle their health at every level. We have to give them hope, opportunities and self-esteem. That is what we are attempting to do across all our work. In doing that, we will improve their health and quality of life. I am grateful to have had the opportunity to address some of those points very briefly here tonight.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will start by being unoriginal and congratulating Irene Oldfather on raising this issue. On a lighter note, the image of Ian Jenkins in a rhododendron bush will remain with me for a long time.

The discussion has shown that we are agreed on the importance of the issue. In her opening remarks, Irene demonstrated very effectively that we must address two questions: why we need to tackle this issue and how we should tackle it. In the few minutes that are available to me, I will try to provide answers to both.

In answer to the first question, it is worth reiterating the cost of smoking-related illness—first and foremost in terms of human suffering and human life and, secondly, in terms of health service resources. We estimate that around one in five deaths in Scotland is the result of smoking- related illness. That is 13,000 deaths every year. On top of that, we estimate that there are some 33,500 hospital admissions as a consequence of smoking-related illness. The cost to the health service is estimated at £140 million per annum. This Executive is determined to take action to deal with that.

The second reason we need to address the issue concerns the Executive's particular commitment to the health of children and young people, which I support. Establishing how and why young people start smoking and taking action to ensure that they do not are crucial. That does not mean that we should not take action further down the line to help adults to stop smoking, but it is particularly important to find ways of stopping young people from starting in the first place. The issues that have been raised in this debate touch on that important point.

I think Irene Oldfather made this point earlier, but I will reiterate it: we estimate that between 80 and 90 per cent of adults who smoke start smoking in their teens. We know that the first puff, be it behind the bike shed or in the rhododendron bush, can lead to a lifetime of addiction, then premature death. We will make a difference if we can stop that first puff.

The third reason we have to do something is the Executive's commitment to taking particular action to help people in our most deprived communities, which Kenny Gibson touched on. Social justice— tackling social exclusion—is a central priority for the Executive. We know that the incidence of smoking is higher and that health is poorer in our deprived communities. We are determined to take steps that will improve the health of the poorest in society, as was outlined in the public health debate in September.

I have said why we have to take action. How—I know that I am rushing—do we take that action? I say to Hugh Henry that we take this issue very seriously. I do not accept that our position is weak in any sense. I will outline briefly some of the steps that we are taking and intend to take.

First, we need to address the issues that Brian Monteith raised: why people smoke, why they remain smokers and how they can be helped to stop smoking. That requires a sound analysis and policy basis. In the main, we have that.

Many members will be familiar with the white paper, \"Smoking Kills\". It is inherited work, but I am happy to have it to hand in progressing this agenda. We have a strategy group in Scotland to oversee the measures outlined in the white paper. The group is actively addressing this issue and it is relevant for the group to address the suggestions and ideas that have been raised in this debate.

The second step that we must take—this is all encompassed in the white paper—is to consider education and awareness, which is why the Executive's emphasis on working across departmental boundaries is so important. I cannot tackle education and awareness in isolation—I must work with education colleagues, for example, in considering how to get health messages across in our schools and in the other environments where young people are found. Health promotion messages are part of that awareness-raising exercise; conversely, they are also about reducing the promotion of tobacco.

Tobacco advertising has been mentioned—and rightly. I reiterate the Executive's absolute commitment to a ban on tobacco advertising and sponsorship in Scotland. As members are aware, a legal challenge by the tobacco companies against the UK Government is taking place south of the border. Our considered opinion, as set out in my answer to a parliamentary question today, is that any move by us to lay regulations in Scotland would inevitably lead to similar litigation here.

We will not move one step further down the road to achieving a ban unless and until those legal issues have been resolved. I assure members— on this occasion, I speak on behalf of the UK Government—that the UK Government is vigorously fighting that challenge in the courts. We are monitoring the situation carefully. Our commitment to introducing the EC directive on a ban of tobacco advertising and sponsorship is absolute and we will take that action as soon as we are able to.

Enforcement has been covered fully. It is important to ensure that we reduce sales of tobacco to young people. There are many ways of doing that and I have placed no constraints on the strategy group that is progressing the white paper—I am more than happy for it to look at all the options. I am not convinced that a negative licensing scheme is the best way forward, nor am I convinced that another tier of regulation and bureaucracy is the most effective way of delivering that reduction. I find it odd saying that when Ben Wallace, of all people, is saying that, in this instance, regulation may be a good thing. I stress that I am happy for the strategy group to consider all suggestions.

We are working closely with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities, the Association of Chief Police Officers in Scotland and trading standards officers to consider all available avenues. I suspect that my time is up; I have not been speaking for 33 minutes, but I may have been speaking for five.

I shall draw together the strands of the issues on which I have touched. I welcome this discussion. There is no simple way to reduce smoking in Scotland, but we are committed to ensuring that we do and in our health targets—reiterated in our social justice targets, which were published today—we set ourselves the firm and demanding target of doing just that. We can do that only if we work together, both within the Parliament and with organisations outside it. We are determined to do

that. Also, we can do it only if we work across our policy areas.

On the day our social justice paper has been produced, I return to the issue of improving the health of the poorest in our society. If our poorest are to be healthier and happier, and are to lead more fulfilled lives, we have to tackle their health at every level. We have to give them hope, opportunities and self-esteem. That is what we are attempting to do across all our work. In doing that, we will improve their health and quality of life. I am grateful to have had the opportunity to address some of those points very briefly here tonight.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1783E59P270C712171", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Baillie, Jackie", "ID": 1783, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumbarton" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Jackie Baillie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Jackie Baillie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 192.0, "ContributionID": 712171, "EditedText": "In deference to the chamber, I always bring facts before members, not lies. I welcome the SNP's support for our publication.", "EditedTextHTML": "In deference to the chamber, I always bring facts before members, not lies.

I welcome the SNP's support for our publication.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:13:41.2269066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1783E59P270C712159", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Baillie, Jackie", "ID": 1783, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumbarton" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Jackie Baillie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Communities (Jackie Baillie): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 168.0, "ContributionID": 712159, "EditedText": "Wendy Alexander has been described as Eva Peron and as Marie Antoinette. The descriptions that I would apply to today's debate are Francie and Josie or Hinge and Brackett— slapstick, knockabout stuff with no substance. We have heard a lot of carping, harping and whingeing, which is disappointing. Was any alternative offered? Where was the substance? I did not hear—", "EditedTextHTML": "Wendy Alexander has been described as Eva Peron and as Marie Antoinette. The descriptions that I would apply to today's debate are Francie and Josie or Hinge and Brackett— slapstick, knockabout stuff with no substance. We have heard a lot of carping, harping and whingeing, which is disappointing. Was any alternative offered? Where was the substance? I did not hear—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:12:28.4701587+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1783E59P270C712161", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Baillie, Jackie", "ID": 1783, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumbarton" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Jackie Baillie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Jackie Baillie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 172.0, "ContributionID": 712161, "EditedText": "No thank you.I did not hear even one positive action proposed. Lloyd Quinan should stop scaremongering. This is one of the most significant debates that this Parliament has had. It marks the beginning of a new era and a new agenda for social equality and justice in Scotland. In this report, we have set out our vision, our targets and our milestones. The report represents the most comprehensive framework ever for tackling poverty in Scotland. Social justice will be our hallmark and ending child poverty in Scotland our principal goal. That is the commitment that the partnership of Labour and Liberal Democrat makes to the people of Scotland. It is a commitment based on three pillars— education, housing and social justice. All are key values that are shared by the partnership and that have fed directly into the report. To keep our focus firmly on the people of Scotland, we have chosen the life cycle as the framework for our targets and milestones—how we grow up, how we live and work, how we raise families and how we grow old. Because we believe that every community matters, we also have targets and milestones for our work with communities. Too often in the past, strategies to tackle poverty and injustice have been more about places than about people. If we are to tackle the root causes of poverty and make a real difference to people's lives, we need to focus on people and places. Both matter, and that dual emphasis is reflected in our report. I agree with Keith Raffan—early intervention is crucial. Preventing poverty from occurring is what we are about. We will address the exchange of information on best practice and disseminate that across Scotland. Let us also remember that some groups in our society suffer persistent injustice, which is often exacerbated by discrimination and prejudice. We are working to ensure that equal opportunities are included in all the Executive's programmes. To make good our commitment to equality in \"Social Justice\", we intend to segregate all the milestones on age, gender, ethnicity and disability. Our commitment that every community matters applies not only to the social inclusion partnership areas, but to other disadvantaged communities throughout Scotland, including isolated, rural areas. We intend our milestones on unemployment rates, drugs misuse, crime rates, the quality and variety of homes, participation in voluntary activities and access to the internet to relate to rural and urban disadvantaged communities throughout Scotland. The SNP amendment was lodged in Mr Salmond's name—it is a shame that he is not here. I point out to the Tories that, in the past 20 years, the proportion of children being brought up in workless households doubled. People from the poorest areas in Scotland are now nearly three times as likely to die early as people from the richest areas. Qualifications are still skewed; more than 4,000 pupils left school in 1997 with no standard grades. I could go on. Do the Tories recognise that picture? They created it; their legacy for Scotland was one of poverty, neglect and decline.", "EditedTextHTML": "No thank you.

I did not hear even one positive action proposed. Lloyd Quinan should stop scaremongering. This is one of the most significant debates that this Parliament has had. It marks the beginning of a new era and a new agenda for social equality and justice in Scotland. In this report, we have set out our vision, our targets and our milestones. The report represents the most comprehensive framework ever for tackling poverty in Scotland. Social justice will be our hallmark and ending child poverty in Scotland our principal goal. That is the commitment that the partnership of Labour and Liberal Democrat makes to the people of Scotland. It is a commitment based on three pillars— education, housing and social justice. All are key values that are shared by the partnership and that have fed directly into the report.

To keep our focus firmly on the people of Scotland, we have chosen the life cycle as the framework for our targets and milestones—how we grow up, how we live and work, how we raise families and how we grow old. Because we believe that every community matters, we also have targets and milestones for our work with communities.

Too often in the past, strategies to tackle poverty and injustice have been more about places than about people. If we are to tackle the root causes of poverty and make a real difference to people's lives, we need to focus on people and places. Both matter, and that dual emphasis is reflected in our report.

I agree with Keith Raffan—early intervention is crucial. Preventing poverty from occurring is what we are about. We will address the exchange of information on best practice and disseminate that across Scotland.

Let us also remember that some groups in our society suffer persistent injustice, which is often exacerbated by discrimination and prejudice. We are working to ensure that equal opportunities are included in all the Executive's programmes. To make good our commitment to equality in \"Social Justice\", we intend to segregate all the milestones on age, gender, ethnicity and disability.

Our commitment that every community matters applies not only to the social inclusion partnership areas, but to other disadvantaged communities throughout Scotland, including isolated, rural areas. We intend our milestones on unemployment rates, drugs misuse, crime rates, the quality and variety of homes, participation in voluntary activities and access to the internet to relate to rural and urban disadvantaged communities throughout Scotland.

The SNP amendment was lodged in Mr Salmond's name—it is a shame that he is not here. I point out to the Tories that, in the past 20 years, the proportion of children being brought up in workless households doubled. People from the poorest areas in Scotland are now nearly three times as likely to die early as people from the richest areas. Qualifications are still skewed; more than 4,000 pupils left school in 1997 with no standard grades. I could go on. Do the Tories recognise that picture? They created it; their legacy for Scotland was one of poverty, neglect and decline.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:12:28.4701587+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C712324", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tobacco Sales", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27108, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 494.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 494.0, "ID": 27108, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fergus Ewing (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 503.0, "ContributionID": 712324, "EditedText": "I congratulate Irene Oldfather on raising this issue in debate. I imagine that it is not one on which there is any party political divide. All members are gravely concerned about the damage that tobacco causes, particularly to young children. I confess that I began smoking as a teenager. I am aware that teenagers are contrasuggestible. You may believe, Presiding Officer, that some adults, such as me, remain contrasuggestible, but that is another matter. I know that if one tells teenagers not to do something, that is almost a guarantee that they will do that very thing. Warm words, pious statements and good intentions are therefore not the currency of success in what I imagine is a common aim. It is up to us to take concrete steps; Irene Oldfather's proposal seems to be a small, sensible and practical step. Although there are difficulties, which she set out clearly and factually, she is to be congratulated on raising the issue. I was very concerned to learn from press reports that the related issue of the ban on tobacco advertising is apparently being thwarted by the threat of action by tobacco companies against the Government south of the border. That is quite disgraceful and I hope that the Government south of the border and the Executive north of the border will stand up to the tobacco barons. Regardless of whether they have links with Margaret Thatcher, they should be taken on and soundly thrashed. It is outrageous that tobacco barons should seek to thwart the legitimate aims of the Government. I am quite convinced that if we were to ban tobacco advertising we would deglamorise smoking, which is what we need to do.", "EditedTextHTML": "I congratulate Irene Oldfather on raising this issue in debate. I imagine that it is not one on which there is any party political divide. All members are gravely concerned about the damage that tobacco causes, particularly to young children.

I confess that I began smoking as a teenager. I am aware that teenagers are contrasuggestible. You may believe, Presiding Officer, that some adults, such as me, remain contrasuggestible, but that is another matter. I know that if one tells teenagers not to do something, that is almost a guarantee that they will do that very thing. Warm words, pious statements and good intentions are therefore not the currency of success in what I imagine is a common aim.

It is up to us to take concrete steps; Irene Oldfather's proposal seems to be a small, sensible and practical step. Although there are difficulties, which she set out clearly and factually, she is to be congratulated on raising the issue.

I was very concerned to learn from press reports that the related issue of the ban on tobacco advertising is apparently being thwarted by the threat of action by tobacco companies against the Government south of the border. That is quite disgraceful and I hope that the Government south of the border and the Executive north of the border will stand up to the tobacco barons. Regardless of whether they have links with Margaret Thatcher, they should be taken on and soundly thrashed. It is outrageous that tobacco barons should seek to thwart the legitimate aims of the Government. I am quite convinced that if we were to ban tobacco advertising we would deglamorise smoking, which is what we need to do.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:00:40.809978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1870E181P475C712134", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robison, Shona", "ID": 1870, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Shona Robison", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Shona Robison (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 111.0, "ContributionID": 712134, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "

Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:00:28.6213377+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C712094", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 28.0, "ContributionID": 712094, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:00:15.9738701+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1773E197P503C712086", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Time for Reflection", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27103, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27103, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hyslop, Fiona", "ID": 1773, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona Hyslop", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona Hyslop (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 10.0, "ContributionID": 712086, "EditedText": "On a point of order, Presiding Officer. The Executive launched its social justice targets on Monday and trailed the news on Sunday. On Thursday 4 November, you said that it is up to \"the Executive which statements are of sufficient policy significance to be made in Parliament.\"—Official Report, 4 November 1999; Vol 3, c 356. Do you agree that a launch with so many ministers and with such a turnout today shows that, in such a matter, we must ensure that the Executive does not treat the Parliament with disrespect? What can you do to restore people's confidence that measures will be announced in this Parliament and to this chamber?", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order, Presiding Officer. The Executive launched its social justice targets on Monday and trailed the news on Sunday. On Thursday 4 November, you said that it is up to

\"the Executive which statements are of sufficient policy significance to be made in Parliament.\"—[Official Report, 4 November 1999; Vol 3, c 356.]

Do you agree that a launch with so many ministers and with such a turnout today shows that, in such a matter, we must ensure that the Executive does not treat the Parliament with disrespect? What can you do to restore people's confidence that measures will be announced in this Parliament and to this chamber?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:00:34.116328+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1773E197P503C712096", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hyslop, Fiona", "ID": 1773, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona Hyslop", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona Hyslop (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 32.0, "ContributionID": 712096, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:00:34.116328+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1773E197P503C712174", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hyslop, Fiona", "ID": 1773, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona Hyslop", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona Hyslop: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 198.0, "ContributionID": 712174, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:00:47.4376059+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1860E111P160C712236", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Grant, Rhoda", "ID": 1860, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Rhoda Grant", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Rhoda Grant (Highlands and Islands) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 327.0, "ContributionID": 712236, "EditedText": "I welcome the announcements that the minister has made today. They will go a long way to meet the needs of the community that I represent. The debate on land reform has gone on for many years and it is great to see that our new Scottish Parliament can deliver on those important priorities. At the end of the process, there must be a workable solution that is designed to meet the needs and demands of future generations. I am therefore delighted that the minister has addressed crofting. Under the present legislation, a crofter has the right to buy his or her croft and an apportionment of the common grazings. Working out that apportionment can be difficult and has discouraged crofters from taking up that option. The right to buy the whole township would offer a greater opportunity for diversification, enabling crofters to start wind farms, build larger community businesses and attract inward investment. I have for some time been dealing with members of the crofting community at Laid on the north coast. Crofters there want the right to buy their crofting community jointly. Now they have that right. That will enable them to put their ideas for diversification into practice—ideas that they have been unable to develop in the past. Today's announcement will help to sustain the fragile community in that area and will allow the people who live there to expand and develop. In my dealings with the people of Laid, it has become clear to me that the community is at a disadvantage because people do not know who owns their land. The estate owner is a company called Vibel SA, which is registered in Liechtenstein. Under Liechtenstein law, it is impossible to find out who the shareholders, and therefore the beneficial owners of the estate, are. I recognise the difficulties that are involved in tracing the identity of beneficial owners who are involved in companies registered outside Scotland and the United Kingdom, but we must recognise that communities are at a great disadvantage if they lack such information. They are unable to make direct representations to their landlord and to discuss issues that affect the running of the estate. To tackle the problem, we must set up a land register in Scotland that lists not only owners, but beneficial owners of land. That is a much bigger project, but we must start it now to ensure that future generations do not face the same problems as the crofters in Laid. I congratulate the minister on today's announcement, but I ask him to address the issues by considering the setting up of a land register.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the announcements that the minister has made today. They will go a long way to meet the needs of the community that I represent. The debate on land reform has gone on for many years and it is great to see that our new Scottish Parliament can deliver on those important priorities.

At the end of the process, there must be a workable solution that is designed to meet the needs and demands of future generations. I am therefore delighted that the minister has

addressed crofting. Under the present legislation, a crofter has the right to buy his or her croft and an apportionment of the common grazings. Working out that apportionment can be difficult and has discouraged crofters from taking up that option. The right to buy the whole township would offer a greater opportunity for diversification, enabling crofters to start wind farms, build larger community businesses and attract inward investment.

I have for some time been dealing with members of the crofting community at Laid on the north coast. Crofters there want the right to buy their crofting community jointly. Now they have that right. That will enable them to put their ideas for diversification into practice—ideas that they have been unable to develop in the past. Today's announcement will help to sustain the fragile community in that area and will allow the people who live there to expand and develop.

In my dealings with the people of Laid, it has become clear to me that the community is at a disadvantage because people do not know who owns their land. The estate owner is a company called Vibel SA, which is registered in Liechtenstein. Under Liechtenstein law, it is impossible to find out who the shareholders, and therefore the beneficial owners of the estate, are.

I recognise the difficulties that are involved in tracing the identity of beneficial owners who are involved in companies registered outside Scotland and the United Kingdom, but we must recognise that communities are at a great disadvantage if they lack such information. They are unable to make direct representations to their landlord and to discuss issues that affect the running of the estate.

To tackle the problem, we must set up a land register in Scotland that lists not only owners, but beneficial owners of land. That is a much bigger project, but we must start it now to ensure that future generations do not face the same problems as the crofters in Laid. I congratulate the minister on today's announcement, but I ask him to address the issues by considering the setting up of a land register.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:00:47.4376059+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C712103", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 46.0, "ContributionID": 712103, "EditedText": "The minister is making her own speech.", "EditedTextHTML": "The minister is making her own speech.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C712104", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 48.0, "ContributionID": 712104, "EditedText": "Fourthly, the SNP suggests that no indication is given of how many people will be taken out of poverty. Let me confirm that the figure is 60,000 children in the two budgets that we have had so far. The fifth criticism is that fuel poverty was missed out. Let us plead guilty, but not because we are not going to tackle it. I ask members to remember that, according to the programme for government, 100,000 Scottish homes are to benefit from the warm deal. That was backed last week by the largest ever energy efficiency programme and a £100 individual winter fuel allowance. What lies behind the SNP's sniping? The question that Fiona Hyslop and her colleagues are terrified of is, \"What would they do?\"", "EditedTextHTML": "Fourthly, the SNP suggests that no indication is given of how many people will be taken out of poverty. Let me confirm that the figure is 60,000 children in the two budgets that we have had so far.

The fifth criticism is that fuel poverty was missed out. Let us plead guilty, but not because we are not going to tackle it. I ask members to remember that, according to the programme for government, 100,000 Scottish homes are to benefit from the warm deal. That was backed last week by the largest ever energy efficiency programme and a £100 individual winter fuel allowance.

What lies behind the SNP's sniping? The question that Fiona Hyslop and her colleagues are terrified of is, \"What would they do?\"

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1865E219P509C712110", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "White, Sandra", "ID": 1865, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sandra White", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms White rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 60.0, "ContributionID": 712110, "EditedText": "Tricia Marwick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)rose—", "EditedTextHTML": "

Tricia Marwick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)

rose—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712113", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Several Members rose—", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Several Members rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 66.0, "ContributionID": 712113, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6232703+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C712116", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 72.0, "ContributionID": 712116, "EditedText": "Tricia Marwick will have two hours, and should let me finish. We need to make decisions that recognise that Glasgow has one in eight households in Scotland, but that as only one in three of the homeless come from there, a special solution is needed, which Jackie Baillie is sorting out. We need decisions such as mine—to put together a revolutionary package for Glasgow housing and to sign up leading financiers to sort it out. Yesterday, I received a letter from Fiona Hyslop and Tommy Sheridan telling the Executive that we should stand back. What hypocrisy. Under Frank McAveety's leadership, then Charlie Gordon's stewardship, education in Glasgow will benefit through 10 new schools that are paid for by a private finance initiative—which has been condemned by Tommy Sheridan and Fiona Hyslop. Unemployment is falling again—delivered by the new deal, paid for by a windfall tax, opposed by the SNP. We are tackling poverty wages, and there are more beneficiaries in Glasgow than anywhere else. The SNP did not even vote for that.", "EditedTextHTML": "Tricia Marwick will have two hours, and should let me finish.

We need to make decisions that recognise that Glasgow has one in eight households in Scotland, but that as only one in three of the homeless come from there, a special solution is needed, which Jackie Baillie is sorting out. We need decisions such as mine—to put together a revolutionary package for Glasgow housing and to sign up leading financiers to sort it out. Yesterday, I received a letter from Fiona Hyslop and Tommy Sheridan telling the Executive that we should stand back. What hypocrisy.

Under Frank McAveety's leadership, then Charlie Gordon's stewardship, education in Glasgow will benefit through 10 new schools that are paid for by a private finance initiative—which has been condemned by Tommy Sheridan and Fiona Hyslop.

Unemployment is falling again—delivered by the new deal, paid for by a windfall tax, opposed by the SNP. We are tackling poverty wages, and there are more beneficiaries in Glasgow than anywhere else. The SNP did not even vote for that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6232703+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712117", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Several Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Several Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 74.0, "ContributionID": 712117, "EditedText": "Time.", "EditedTextHTML": "Time.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6232703+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C712118", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 76.0, "ContributionID": 712118, "EditedText": "In terms of poor pensioners, Glasgow will have the largest number of beneficiaries from the national minimum income guarantee.", "EditedTextHTML": "In terms of poor pensioners, Glasgow will have the largest number of beneficiaries from the national minimum income guarantee.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6232703+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C712119", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bruce Crawford (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 78.0, "ContributionID": 712119, "EditedText": "On a point of order. The minister has named individuals, but has not allowed a response from those individuals. Is that considered the normal course of debate in this Parliament?", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. The minister has named individuals, but has not allowed a response from those individuals. Is that considered the normal course of debate in this Parliament?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6232703+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C712120", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 80.0, "ContributionID": 712120, "EditedText": "Both individuals whom I heard the minister name are on my list of speakers to enter the debate. I ask the minister to wind up, as she is over time.", "EditedTextHTML": "Both individuals whom I heard the minister name are on my list of speakers to enter the debate.

I ask the minister to wind up, as she is over time.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6232703+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C712124", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 88.0, "ContributionID": 712124, "EditedText": "I believe that the minister's allocated time was 10 minutes. She is now more than three minutes over that. She has refused to take any interventions, but has been allowed more than three minutes over her allocation.", "EditedTextHTML": "I believe that the minister's allocated time was 10 minutes. She is now more than three minutes over that. She has refused to take any interventions, but has been allowed more than three minutes over her allocation.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6232703+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C712125", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 90.0, "ContributionID": 712125, "EditedText": "Yes, but there have been three points of order. I ask the minister to wind up now.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes, but there have been three points of order. I ask the minister to wind up now.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6232703+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C712126", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 92.0, "ContributionID": 712126, "EditedText": "My final point is this: we were elected with the ambitions of those men and women who want, as I was saying, to live in a Scotland that is governed in the interests of the many, not the few. We are delivering on those promises. Ending child poverty is the historic calling of the parties in the coalition. I commend that commitment not just to the parties of the coalition but to everyone in the chamber. I move,That the Parliament agrees that social justice should be the hallmark of Scottish society; welcomes the publication by the Scottish Executive of the groundbreaking report Social Justice …a Scotland where everyone matters and the targets, milestones and developments in budgetary mechanisms that it contains, and commends this as an example of the success of the Partnership Agreement and as an appropriate opportunity to work with the UK Government for the betterment of Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "My final point is this: we were elected with the ambitions of those men and women who want, as I was saying, to live in a Scotland that is governed in the interests of the many, not the few.

We are delivering on those promises. Ending child poverty is the historic calling of the parties in the coalition. I commend that commitment not just to the parties of the coalition but to everyone in the chamber.

I move,

That the Parliament agrees that social justice should be the hallmark of Scottish society; welcomes the publication by the Scottish Executive of the groundbreaking report Social Justice …a Scotland where everyone matters and the targets, milestones and developments in budgetary mechanisms that it contains, and commends this as an example of the success of the Partnership Agreement and as an appropriate opportunity to work with the UK Government for the betterment of Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6232703+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C712139", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 123.0, "ContributionID": 712139, "EditedText": "Bring your speech to a close, please.", "EditedTextHTML": "Bring your speech to a close, please.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6232703+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1882E175P456C712140", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ingram, Adam", "ID": 1882, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Adam Ingram", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Ingram: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 125.0, "ContributionID": 712140, "EditedText": "I will finish on this point.If those people were counted as unemployed, the real unemployment rate would be more than doubled. Some scepticism is called for when we consider claims that unemployment is being reduced because one statistic moves in a certain direction.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will finish on this point.

If those people were counted as unemployed, the real unemployment rate would be more than doubled. Some scepticism is called for when we consider claims that unemployment is being reduced because one statistic moves in a certain direction.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6232703+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C712133", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Keith Raffan (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 109.0, "ContributionID": 712133, "EditedText": "The Scottish Liberal Democrats support the motion, and we support the social inclusion targets that the Executive has set. I am sure that Wendy Alexander will agree that it is important to distinguish between what the Scottish Executive hopes and plans to do and what the United Kingdom Government—a separate Government— has done or is doing. I hope that Jackie Baillie will make that clear in her summing up, as I am sure that Ms Alexander would want to clarify any confusion that might have emerged as a result of her interesting opening speech. She may also want to clarify what is meant by references in the \"Social Justice\" documents that were issued this week to the record since 1997. That refers to the UK Government's record. The record of the Scottish Executive, in which the Liberal Democrats are glad to play an active part, has existed only since May this year. We support the motion. The pursuit of social justice is at the heart of my party's philosophy and beliefs. The Executive's targets are ambitious in many ways and span nearly every department. They must mark a real attempt not to alleviate symptoms, but to tackle the roots of problems. There are many parts to the jigsaw and, if the targets are to be reached and social justice is to be delivered, we must ensure that best practice is disseminated across a broad range of areas. I would like to introduce a constructive note into the debate. Best practice is at the core of a social justice strategy. Let me give two or three examples. For the first, I am indebted to my colleague Dr Richard Simpson, whose constituency is in my region of Mid Scotland and Fife. Dr Simpson has stressed the fact that early intervention in exclusion of pupils from school is crucial. A high percentage of truants go on to be young offenders or drug addicts or both and end up in prison. The pupil support unit that has been developed as part of the social inclusion project at Alloa Academy is a prime example of how exclusion from school can be tackled. That unit has exceeded the Executive's targets, halving exclusion. Dr Simpson told me that one pupil, excluded from primary school no fewer than 27 times, has not been excluded at all now that he is at the academy. That is the best practice which needs to be disseminated widely throughout Scotland if we are to have not just a different future, as the book launched today put it, but a profoundly better future. We all know that the drugs action teams have had a mixed record. That is probably the diplomatic understatement of the day. The Glasgow drugs action team has been, if not an unqualified success, at least a qualified success. I spoke to Iona Colvin, who is highly respected in that field, earlier this week. I asked her why that drugs action team has been successful and the others have not. The Glasgow team has been successful because it has an inspiring chairman, implementation working groups that are highly effective, and a close relationship between the local authority and health board. We must ensure that that best practice is disseminated to the other 22 drugs action teams. Ayrshire and Arran Health Board's drug project, under the driving inspiration of Dr Charles Linn, offers a model of dealing with addiction. The area is demographically similar to Fife, yet the difference between the drug services is like the difference between night and day. We must ensure that those excellent services and the way in which the Ayrshire and Arran model has been developed are fed to other health board areas in Scotland. It is not just a question of best practice; it is a question of resources. The Liberal Democrats strongly support the commitment to social justice. We particularly support the Executive's commitment to tackling pensioner poverty, but that commitment can be delivered only if the Chancellor of the Exchequer releases extra resources. In that, a distinction must be drawn between the two Governments—the Scottish Executive, of which the Liberal Democrats are glad to be a part, and the UK Government, which we oppose. There is no doubt that we differ from the chancellor in our view that resources need to be released early.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Scottish Liberal Democrats support the motion, and we support the social inclusion targets that the Executive has set. I am sure that Wendy Alexander will agree that it is important to distinguish between what the Scottish Executive hopes and plans to do and what the United Kingdom Government—a separate Government— has done or is doing. I hope that Jackie Baillie will make that clear in her summing up, as I am sure that Ms Alexander would want to clarify any confusion that might have emerged as a result of her interesting opening speech. She may also want to clarify what is meant by references in the \"Social Justice\" documents that were issued this week to the record since 1997. That refers to the UK Government's record. The record of the Scottish Executive, in which the Liberal Democrats are glad to play an active part, has existed only since May this year.

We support the motion. The pursuit of social justice is at the heart of my party's philosophy and

beliefs. The Executive's targets are ambitious in many ways and span nearly every department. They must mark a real attempt not to alleviate symptoms, but to tackle the roots of problems. There are many parts to the jigsaw and, if the targets are to be reached and social justice is to be delivered, we must ensure that best practice is disseminated across a broad range of areas.

I would like to introduce a constructive note into the debate. Best practice is at the core of a social justice strategy. Let me give two or three examples. For the first, I am indebted to my colleague Dr Richard Simpson, whose constituency is in my region of Mid Scotland and Fife. Dr Simpson has stressed the fact that early intervention in exclusion of pupils from school is crucial. A high percentage of truants go on to be young offenders or drug addicts or both and end up in prison. The pupil support unit that has been developed as part of the social inclusion project at Alloa Academy is a prime example of how exclusion from school can be tackled.

That unit has exceeded the Executive's targets, halving exclusion. Dr Simpson told me that one pupil, excluded from primary school no fewer than 27 times, has not been excluded at all now that he is at the academy. That is the best practice which needs to be disseminated widely throughout Scotland if we are to have not just a different future, as the book launched today put it, but a profoundly better future.

We all know that the drugs action teams have had a mixed record. That is probably the diplomatic understatement of the day. The Glasgow drugs action team has been, if not an unqualified success, at least a qualified success. I spoke to Iona Colvin, who is highly respected in that field, earlier this week. I asked her why that drugs action team has been successful and the others have not. The Glasgow team has been successful because it has an inspiring chairman, implementation working groups that are highly effective, and a close relationship between the local authority and health board. We must ensure that that best practice is disseminated to the other 22 drugs action teams.

Ayrshire and Arran Health Board's drug project, under the driving inspiration of Dr Charles Linn, offers a model of dealing with addiction. The area is demographically similar to Fife, yet the difference between the drug services is like the difference between night and day. We must ensure that those excellent services and the way in which the Ayrshire and Arran model has been developed are fed to other health board areas in Scotland.

It is not just a question of best practice; it is a question of resources. The Liberal Democrats strongly support the commitment to social justice.

We particularly support the Executive's commitment to tackling pensioner poverty, but that commitment can be delivered only if the Chancellor of the Exchequer releases extra resources. In that, a distinction must be drawn between the two Governments—the Scottish Executive, of which the Liberal Democrats are glad to be a part, and the UK Government, which we oppose. There is no doubt that we differ from the chancellor in our view that resources need to be released early.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6232703+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C712135", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 113.0, "ContributionID": 712135, "EditedText": "I will not give way, as I have limited time. How can we tackle pensioner poverty effectively, when the chancellor promises to increase pensions next April by only 75p? That increase will be more than wiped out by the rises in council tax and water rates. Ministers of both parties must intervene directly to make that point forcefully to the chancellor. An increase of 75p in pensions is so negligible as to be insulting. Throughout Scotland, single pensioners will be worse off next year. In Aberdeen, they will be worse off by £43.45; in Dundee, by £50.47; in Highland, by £42.63; and in Perth and Kinross, by £41.27. Pensioners will be better off—if that phrase means anything—only in the Scottish Borders, and even then, by a mere 67p. The lowest estimate for the chancellor's treasure chest is £10 billion. If the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Executive are to tackle social injustice and social exclusion effectively, he must release some of those resources now, so that we can have an effective programme for tackling poverty and can achieve the admirable targets that the Executive has set.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will not give way, as I have limited time.

How can we tackle pensioner poverty effectively, when the chancellor promises to increase pensions next April by only 75p? That increase will be more than wiped out by the rises in council tax and water rates. Ministers of both parties must intervene directly to make that point forcefully to the chancellor. An increase of 75p in pensions is so negligible as to be insulting.

Throughout Scotland, single pensioners will be worse off next year. In Aberdeen, they will be worse off by £43.45; in Dundee, by £50.47; in Highland, by £42.63; and in Perth and Kinross, by £41.27. Pensioners will be better off—if that phrase means anything—only in the Scottish Borders, and even then, by a mere 67p.

The lowest estimate for the chancellor's treasure chest is £10 billion. If the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Executive are to tackle social injustice and social exclusion effectively, he must release some of those resources now, so that we can have an effective programme for tackling poverty and can achieve the admirable targets that the Executive has set.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6232703+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1882E175P456C712138", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ingram, Adam", "ID": 1882, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Adam Ingram", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Adam Ingram (South of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 121.0, "ContributionID": 712138, "EditedText": "I would like to focus on the Executive's commitment to full employment in Scotland by 2020. I welcome the Executive's recognition that full employment in Scotland is an achievable objective. For the past 20 years, we have been lectured by unionist politicians of all shades that a reserve army of the unemployed was an inevitable consequence of post-industrial society. More recently, we have been told that it is a price worth paying for low inflation south of the border. The turnround is welcome, but I fear that the commitment carries less weight than the overblown presentation packs published by the minister. With the change in objectives, I assumed that there would be a change in the prevailing approach of the past 20 years, during which time it was assumed that people were unemployed not because there were no jobs but because they did not have the skills to do those jobs. Billions have been spent on training schemes, on the expansion of further and higher education, on adult learning and on retraining to free up the supply side of the labour market. On the demand side, however, laissez faire has been the order of the day. Following the hype of the press announcements, I read the document. I was disappointed but not surprised to find no indication of a change of approach by the Executive. It seems that we can look forward to more of the same old policies, supported by the right-wing gurus of supply-side economics who blame the unemployed for being unemployed. I agree with what Wendy Alexander says in the document: \"Achieving our targets will also be about more than what we spend. It will be about how we spend, whom we work with and how we organise for change.\" The hundreds of millions of pounds that are being spent on schemes designed to cut unemployment statistics rather than to get people into real jobs should be pumped into public works and major infrastructure projects and should be used to support small businesses that will create jobs and the conditions for economic expansion. On Monday, while the Executive was polishing its press skills, I visited a jobcentre in Cumnock. If the minister had been with me, she would have found that the number of job vacancies did not tally with the number of people who were out of work. The International Labour Organisation figure for the unemployment rate in the area is 14.6 per cent. The jobs that are available in the area tend to be part-time, temporary or not highly skilled. The brightest prospect for employment in the area is the opening of a Tesco supermarket. The jobcentre has already been inundated with applications and inquiries for jobs that have not even been advertised. At the same time, full-time, skilled jobs, especially in the agricultural and textile industries, are leaking away. That is what is happening in the real world. There is nothing in the documents that will effectively address unemployment in Cumnock. Let us consider the Executive's milestones, to illustrate the point. Milestone 1 is: \"Reducing the percentage of our children living in workless households.\" That is obviously dependent on the achievement of milestone 13: \"Reducing the proportion of unemployed working age people.\" That is to be measured by the ILO rate of unemployment derived from the labour force survey. The Executive has made its aim clear. It wants to reduce a proportion—a statistic calculated by dividing the number of people who are employed by the number of people of working age who are economically inactive. It does not have to create a single job to achieve that objective. By its own definition, it requires only a shift in the number of people to the economically active category from the economically inactive category. The mechanisms for doing that have been pioneered by UK Governments over the past 20 years. Between 1981 and 1995, the number of people in Britain claiming sickness benefits over six months rose by 1.23 million. Those people consequently vanished from the unemployment statistics. The latest labour force survey shows that 216,000 of the 698,000 people of working age classified by the Government as economically inactive wanted a job.", "EditedTextHTML": "I would like to focus on the Executive's commitment to full employment in Scotland by 2020. I welcome the Executive's recognition that full employment in Scotland is an achievable objective. For the past 20 years, we have been lectured by unionist politicians of all shades that a reserve army of the unemployed was an inevitable consequence of post-industrial society. More recently, we have been told that it is a price worth paying for low inflation south of the border.

The turnround is welcome, but I fear that the commitment carries less weight than the overblown presentation packs published by the minister. With the change in objectives, I assumed that there would be a change in the prevailing

approach of the past 20 years, during which time it was assumed that people were unemployed not because there were no jobs but because they did not have the skills to do those jobs. Billions have been spent on training schemes, on the expansion of further and higher education, on adult learning and on retraining to free up the supply side of the labour market. On the demand side, however, laissez faire has been the order of the day.

Following the hype of the press announcements, I read the document. I was disappointed but not surprised to find no indication of a change of approach by the Executive. It seems that we can look forward to more of the same old policies, supported by the right-wing gurus of supply-side economics who blame the unemployed for being unemployed.

I agree with what Wendy Alexander says in the document:

\"Achieving our targets will also be about more than what we spend. It will be about how we spend, whom we work with and how we organise for change.\"

The hundreds of millions of pounds that are being spent on schemes designed to cut unemployment statistics rather than to get people into real jobs should be pumped into public works and major infrastructure projects and should be used to support small businesses that will create jobs and the conditions for economic expansion.

On Monday, while the Executive was polishing its press skills, I visited a jobcentre in Cumnock. If the minister had been with me, she would have found that the number of job vacancies did not tally with the number of people who were out of work. The International Labour Organisation figure for the unemployment rate in the area is 14.6 per cent.

The jobs that are available in the area tend to be part-time, temporary or not highly skilled. The brightest prospect for employment in the area is the opening of a Tesco supermarket. The jobcentre has already been inundated with applications and inquiries for jobs that have not even been advertised. At the same time, full-time, skilled jobs, especially in the agricultural and textile industries, are leaking away. That is what is happening in the real world. There is nothing in the documents that will effectively address unemployment in Cumnock.

Let us consider the Executive's milestones, to illustrate the point. Milestone 1 is:

\"Reducing the percentage of our children living in workless households.\"

That is obviously dependent on the achievement of milestone 13:

\"Reducing the proportion of unemployed working age people.\"

That is to be measured by the ILO rate of unemployment derived from the labour force survey.

The Executive has made its aim clear. It wants to reduce a proportion—a statistic calculated by dividing the number of people who are employed by the number of people of working age who are economically inactive. It does not have to create a single job to achieve that objective. By its own definition, it requires only a shift in the number of people to the economically active category from the economically inactive category.

The mechanisms for doing that have been pioneered by UK Governments over the past 20 years. Between 1981 and 1995, the number of people in Britain claiming sickness benefits over six months rose by 1.23 million. Those people consequently vanished from the unemployment statistics.

The latest labour force survey shows that 216,000 of the 698,000 people of working age classified by the Government as economically inactive wanted a job.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6232703+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C712141", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan (Glasgow) (SSP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 128.0, "ContributionID": 712141, "EditedText": "I thank the minister and other members for mentioning me in the course of the debate. I suppose that it ensured that I was called to speak. I suggest that the minister's speech would be better termed the \"Let them eat cake\" speech. Wendy Alexander is fast becoming the Marie- Antoinette of the Parliament. I will oppose the minister's motion today because it reeks of arrogance and of a misunderstanding of the reality of life after two and a half years of a Labour Government. It is worth reminding Wendy and the rest of the Labour members that life did not start for new Labour in May this year—it started two and a half years ago. That is why, when Wendy tells me about the targets for tackling child poverty, I must raise with her the report of Glasgow City Council social strategy committee in April. It showed that in May 1997, a disgraceful 38 per cent of the children in Glasgow were in receipt of free school meals because they lived in poor families. Two years later—two years into the Blair Government—the number of kids receiving free school meals in Glasgow had risen to 43 per cent. That is an increase in poverty after two years of the new Labour Government. The minister talks about dignity in old age— dignity in old age, for pensioners in communities throughout Scotland who feel betrayed?", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the minister and other members for mentioning me in the course of the debate. I suppose that it ensured that I was called to speak.

I suggest that the minister's speech would be better termed the \"Let them eat cake\" speech. Wendy Alexander is fast becoming the Marie- Antoinette of the Parliament.

I will oppose the minister's motion today because it reeks of arrogance and of a misunderstanding of the reality of life after two and a half years of a Labour Government. It is worth reminding Wendy and the rest of the Labour members that life did not start for new Labour in May this year—it started two and a half years ago.

That is why, when Wendy tells me about the targets for tackling child poverty, I must raise with her the report of Glasgow City Council social strategy committee in April. It showed that in May 1997, a disgraceful 38 per cent of the children in

Glasgow were in receipt of free school meals because they lived in poor families. Two years later—two years into the Blair Government—the number of kids receiving free school meals in Glasgow had risen to 43 per cent. That is an increase in poverty after two years of the new Labour Government.

The minister talks about dignity in old age— dignity in old age, for pensioners in communities throughout Scotland who feel betrayed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6232703+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C712145", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 136.0, "ContributionID": 712145, "EditedText": "When the minister suggests that the minimum income guarantee that the Executive offers should be applauded, it is difficult to tell whether she has any grasp on reality. Does she know that the minimum income guarantee is even less than the disgusting minimum wage that this Government has introduced? She is asking pensioners—and only pensioners who are in receipt of income support can claim this—to live on the minimum income that the Government has set. My question to her is: could she or any of the other ministers live on that income? The answer is that they could not. My reply to the question that the minister asked is yes. There should be an increase across the board in basic state pensions, because that is the way to target poverty. As soon as means testing is introduced—as the Government is now doing, at the drop of a hat, in every area of social welfare policy—millions of ordinary poor people who deserve to be given some assistance are missed. All that the pensioners want is a decent pension, so that they can live with some dignity. They do not want to be insulted by a 75p-a-week increase, when the Government is sitting on a treasure chest of at least £12 billion. The existence of that treasure chest testifies not to the skill of Gordon Brown, but to the fact that this Government is a poor parent; it is the sign of a poor guardian of family income. If any parent in Scotland were to build up a family surplus by refusing their kids new clothes and new shoes when they needed them, or refusing to give their grandparents a decent income, they would not be applauded, but condemned.", "EditedTextHTML": "When the minister suggests that the minimum income guarantee that the Executive offers should be applauded, it is difficult to tell whether she has any grasp on reality. Does she know that the minimum income guarantee is even less than the disgusting minimum wage that this Government has introduced? She is asking pensioners—and only pensioners who are in receipt of income support can claim this—to live on the minimum income that the Government has set. My question to her is: could she or any of the other ministers live on that income? The answer is that they could not.

My reply to the question that the minister asked is yes. There should be an increase across the board in basic state pensions, because that is the way to target poverty. As soon as means testing is introduced—as the Government is now doing, at the drop of a hat, in every area of social welfare policy—millions of ordinary poor people who deserve to be given some assistance are missed. All that the pensioners want is a decent pension, so that they can live with some dignity. They do not want to be insulted by a 75p-a-week increase, when the Government is sitting on a treasure chest of at least £12 billion.

The existence of that treasure chest testifies not to the skill of Gordon Brown, but to the fact that this Government is a poor parent; it is the sign of a poor guardian of family income. If any parent in Scotland were to build up a family surplus by refusing their kids new clothes and new shoes when they needed them, or refusing to give their grandparents a decent income, they would not be applauded, but condemned.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6232703+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C712146", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 138.0, "ContributionID": 712146, "EditedText": "Wind up, please.", "EditedTextHTML": "Wind up, please.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6232703+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C712147", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 140.0, "ContributionID": 712147, "EditedText": "The Government is starving our public services through underfunding. The Trades Union Congress is not yet a friend of the Scottish Socialist party, but in a report issued three weeks ago—", "EditedTextHTML": "The Government is starving our public services through underfunding.

The Trades Union Congress is not yet a friend of the Scottish Socialist party, but in a report issued three weeks ago—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6232703+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C712149", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 144.0, "ContributionID": 712149, "EditedText": "Mr McAveety will get his chance—he does not need to jump in, as he is in a different place now.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr McAveety will get his chance—he does not need to jump in, as he is in a different place now.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6232703+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C712153", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 152.0, "ContributionID": 712153, "EditedText": "As you have noticed, I am trying.", "EditedTextHTML": "As you have noticed, I am trying.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6232703+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C712154", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 154.0, "ContributionID": 712154, "EditedText": "Carry on.", "EditedTextHTML": "Carry on.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6232703+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C712162", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie (Lothians) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 174.0, "ContributionID": 712162, "EditedText": "Lies, lies, lies.", "EditedTextHTML": "Lies, lies, lies.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6232703+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C712164", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 178.0, "ContributionID": 712164, "EditedText": "Lies, lies.", "EditedTextHTML": "Lies, lies.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6232703+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C712166", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 182.0, "ContributionID": 712166, "EditedText": "I have to interrupt you, Ms Baillie. I ask members to have the courtesy to listen to the minister's response and not to shout from the sidelines. If members want to intervene, they should indicate that that is what they want to do. That is not happening.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have to interrupt you, Ms Baillie. I ask members to have the courtesy to listen to the minister's response and not to shout from the sidelines. If members want to intervene, they should indicate that that is what they want to do. That is not happening.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6232703+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2118E157P454C712172", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Quinan, Mr Lloyd", "ID": 2118, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lloyd Quinan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Quinan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 194.0, "ContributionID": 712172, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5607365+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C712180", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Patricia Ferguson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 211.0, "ContributionID": 712180, "EditedText": "We now move on to the next item of business, which is motion S1M-313 on land reform, in the name of Mr Jim Wallace.", "EditedTextHTML": "We now move on to the next item of business, which is motion S1M-313 on land reform, in the name of Mr Jim Wallace.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5607365+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1892E34P73C712181", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Fergusson, Alex", "ID": 1892, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Fergusson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Fergusson (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 213.0, "ContributionID": 712181, "EditedText": "On a point of order. Today's business bulletin says that the debate on land reform will start no later than 3.45 pm. Will you take that into account in the timing of speeches?", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. Today's business bulletin says that the debate on land reform will start no later than 3.45 pm. Will you take that into account in the timing of speeches?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5607365+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C712183", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice (Mr Jim Wallace): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 218.0, "ContributionID": 712183, "EditedText": "I welcome the fact that the debate has been extended by half an hour and that decision time will be at 5.30 pm. This is an important debate and it gives me considerable pleasure to open it. This is the first substantial opportunity that the Parliament has had to discuss this important subject. Land reform is a subject that has consistently been on the agenda of the people of Scotland, but it has not been on the parliamentary agenda for about 75 years. It is on the agenda now and that is a practical example, to add to the many others that we have seen, of the benefits of devolution. This partnership Administration has put land reform on the agenda. We are tackling land reform not through words only, but through action. Our land reform action plan made plain the wide range of our commitments. Some of those require legislation, some do not and some require further study. The report on that action plan that we published on 16 November shows that we are delivering. We have achieved five of our targets already. Scottish Enterprise's community land unit is open for business. The Crofters Commission absentee programme is running sensitively and successfully. The woodland grant scheme rules have been amended to give tenant farmers more opportunity to diversify. Over the summer, we announced a series of new community commitments by Forest Enterprise, Scottish Natural Heritage, ministers' own crofting estates and the Crown estate. We showed that we were prepared to give a lead where ministers and the public sector had land ownership responsibilities. That has set the standard that we expect private landowners to follow. Lastly, we have issued letters to all bodies that have compulsory purchase powers in Scotland, reminding them that such powers are there to be used in suitable circumstances. We have also made significant progress on a wide range of other items. Most important, we are on track to deliver the first three major bills related to land reform: on feudal reform; on national parks, which is the responsibility of my colleague Sarah Boyack; and on land reform itself. I want to say a few words about how the land reform bill is developing. In July, we published our proposals in a white paper and said then that we would consult and listen to what people had to say. We meant that, and we have indeed listened. I am very grateful to the many people who have responded to that consultation.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the fact that the debate has been extended by half an hour and that decision time will be at 5.30 pm. This is an important debate and it gives me considerable pleasure to open it. This is the first substantial opportunity that the Parliament has had to discuss this important subject. Land reform is a subject that has consistently been on the agenda of the people of Scotland, but it has not been on the parliamentary agenda for about 75 years. It is on the agenda now and that is a practical example, to add to the many others that we have seen, of the benefits of devolution.

This partnership Administration has put land reform on the agenda. We are tackling land reform not through words only, but through action. Our land reform action plan made plain the wide range of our commitments. Some of those require legislation, some do not and some require further study. The report on that action plan that we published on 16 November shows that we are delivering.

We have achieved five of our targets already. Scottish Enterprise's community land unit is open for business. The Crofters Commission absentee programme is running sensitively and successfully. The woodland grant scheme rules have been amended to give tenant farmers more opportunity to diversify. Over the summer, we announced a series of new community commitments by Forest Enterprise, Scottish Natural Heritage, ministers' own crofting estates and the Crown estate. We showed that we were prepared to give a lead where ministers and the public sector had land ownership responsibilities. That has set the standard that we expect private landowners to follow. Lastly, we have issued letters to all bodies that have compulsory purchase powers in Scotland, reminding them that such powers are there to be used in suitable circumstances.

We have also made significant progress on a wide range of other items. Most important, we are on track to deliver the first three major bills related to land reform: on feudal reform; on national parks, which is the responsibility of my colleague Sarah Boyack; and on land reform itself.

I want to say a few words about how the land reform bill is developing. In July, we published our proposals in a white paper and said then that we would consult and listen to what people had to say. We meant that, and we have indeed listened. I am very grateful to the many people who have responded to that consultation.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5607365+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C712188", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 228.0, "ContributionID": 712188, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5607365+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C712189", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 230.0, "ContributionID": 712189, "EditedText": "I will say more in a moment on the issue of time, which, I hope, will give Mr McLetchie the reassurance that he seeks. We have listened to the concerns of the landowning interest. The main concern of landowners was about cherry picking. I understand their concern that, in some cases, that could have an impact on the value of the remaining land. We would much prefer that the seller and community body reach a voluntary agreement on the area for community purchase, but if they cannot do that, the community will have to buy the land as lotted. Landowning interests have also expressed concerns about the delays that could result from the exercise of community right to buy. Delays are in no one's interests and we wish to minimise them. Therefore, we have accepted the suggestion that the 30 days for community bodies to confirm their interest in buying should be prior to the property going on the market. Clearly, that implies an obligation on the landowner to give prior intimation to a registered community body. A further change to speed up the process markedly will be that the period of six months for community bodies to come up with funding will run from the date on which the body notifies the landowner that it will exercise its right to buy. To make that possible, the various processes will go forward simultaneously rather than consecutively; and deadlines will be set for each stage in the process. I will now address the prospects for including provisions to create a crofting community right to buy in the forthcoming bill, rather than waiting for the crofting bill that Ross Finnie will bring forward in about two years' time. When we launched the consultation paper at Abriachan in July, we said that we wanted to include a crofting community right to buy if we could. We have consulted on that separately and listened to what crofting communities and other interests had to say. In the light of that consultation, I am pleased to announce today that the draft land reform bill will indeed include provisions on giving crofting communities a special right to buy. That will mean a short delay, possibly up to a couple of months, in introducing the draft land reform bill. That is a price well worth paying to give crofting communities the right to buy now. I am sure that all those in the crofting community and those members who have expressed an interest in this area will warmly welcome this announcement. Finally, I turn to provisions relating to access. It was clear from the consultation that there are concerns about the implications of our proposals to create a responsible right of access. Perhaps I can take this opportunity to repeat that we are proposing a responsible right of access and not, as might more neatly fit a headline, a right to roam—it is intended that a right of access should be exercised responsibly. Farmers and other landowners expressed concerns about their ability to continue to manage their land. I understand those concerns, although I think that, in many cases, they were overstated. It has to be understood that the new right of access will be conditional on its being exercised responsibly. Guidance to the public on responsible behaviour will be set out in the Scottish outdoor access code, which will be published for consultation alongside the draft bill. I endorse what a number of people, both those wishing to exercise the right and those with concerns about its exercise, have said to me about the importance of public education on the responsibilities that are attached to the right. Some landowners have argued that even responsible exercise of the right could, at times, impact adversely on their ability to manage their land. I recognise that there will be occasions when it will be necessary to limit the exercise of the right over some land. Therefore, the legislation will provide for land managers to manage the right of access on their land when the requirements of land management dictate. Those arrangements will inevitably be informal, but land managers will be expected to act responsibly in imposing any limitations on the right of access. A particular concern was expressed about the access to farm steadings. Many respondents argued that farm steadings are just as much places of work as quarries or factories. Those arguments are persuasive. I have decided that the legislation will exclude farm steadings from the right of access, although there is an important qualification to that. Where a right of way already exists to a farm steading, that will continue. The consultation also raised concerns about access by groups, particularly commercial groups. It is clear that a balance must be struck. The right of access will apply to individuals. In many cases, individuals will choose to exercise their right collectively; for example, as a family group. We want to encourage that, and it should not create difficulties. However, large organised groups present an altogether different proposition. The legislation will not extend the right to advertise sponsored or promotional events. That is not to say that such events cannot take place, as at present, with the expressed consent of the landowner. All in all, this is a balanced package of adjustments to the policy proposals that are contained in the white paper. It demonstrates a responsiveness to issues that have been raised on all sides. We have listened and have acted where appropriate. Officials are now at work trying to prepare draft legislation, and I look forward to introducing the draft bill and having the opportunity for more detailed consideration and consultation. The land reform bill is important. It will make a real difference to communities throughout Scotland that want to take up the right to buy, and to those who want to exercise the right of responsible access to see and experience the scenic heritage of the country in which we live. As I have explained today, the bill will also make a difference to those in the crofting communities who want to buy the land on which they live and work. However, the bill is only one element of our commitments on land reform. The action plan demonstrates the many other commitments that we are honouring. Overall, our land reform agenda is demanding, and one that we are in the process of delivering. For many years, despite a keenly held desire to make progress in this area, the subject of land reform was lost from the parliamentary stage. The Executive has put it back firmly where it belongs— up front, centre stage. I commend the motion to the Parliament. I move,That the Parliament commends the openness of the Scottish Executive's approach to land reform, as demonstrated by the extensive consultations on the Land Reform White Paper published in July; recognises the scale of their overall commitments to legislation and other action on land reform as set out in the Land Reform Action Plan published in August, and welcomes the progress to date as shown in the first Progress Report published earlier this month.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will say more in a moment on the issue of time, which, I hope, will give Mr McLetchie the reassurance that he seeks.

We have listened to the concerns of the landowning interest. The main concern of landowners was about cherry picking. I understand their concern that, in some cases, that could have an impact on the value of the remaining land. We would much prefer that the seller and community body reach a voluntary agreement on the area for community purchase, but if they cannot do that, the community will have to buy the land as lotted.

Landowning interests have also expressed concerns about the delays that could result from the exercise of community right to buy. Delays are in no one's interests and we wish to minimise them. Therefore, we have accepted the suggestion that the 30 days for community bodies to confirm their interest in buying should be prior to the property going on the market. Clearly, that implies an obligation on the landowner to give prior intimation to a registered community body.

A further change to speed up the process markedly will be that the period of six months for community bodies to come up with funding will run from the date on which the body notifies the landowner that it will exercise its right to buy. To make that possible, the various processes will go forward simultaneously rather than consecutively; and deadlines will be set for each stage in the process.

I will now address the prospects for including provisions to create a crofting community right to buy in the forthcoming bill, rather than waiting for the crofting bill that Ross Finnie will bring forward in about two years' time. When we launched the consultation paper at Abriachan in July, we said that we wanted to include a crofting community right to buy if we could.

We have consulted on that separately and listened to what crofting communities and other interests had to say. In the light of that consultation, I am pleased to announce today that the draft land reform bill will indeed include provisions on giving crofting communities a special right to buy. That will mean a short delay, possibly up to a couple of months, in introducing the draft land reform bill. That is a price well worth paying to give crofting communities the right to buy now. I am sure that all those in the crofting community and those members who have expressed an interest in this area will warmly welcome this announcement.

Finally, I turn to provisions relating to access. It was clear from the consultation that there are concerns about the implications of our proposals to create a responsible right of access. Perhaps I can take this opportunity to repeat that we are proposing a responsible right of access and not, as might more neatly fit a headline, a right to roam—it is intended that a right of access should be exercised responsibly.

Farmers and other landowners expressed concerns about their ability to continue to manage their land. I understand those concerns, although I think that, in many cases, they were overstated. It has to be understood that the new right of access will be conditional on its being exercised responsibly. Guidance to the public on responsible behaviour will be set out in the Scottish outdoor access code, which will be published for consultation alongside the draft bill. I endorse what a number of people, both those wishing to exercise the right and those with concerns about its exercise, have said to me about the importance of public education on the responsibilities that are attached to the right.

Some landowners have argued that even responsible exercise of the right could, at times,

impact adversely on their ability to manage their land. I recognise that there will be occasions when it will be necessary to limit the exercise of the right over some land. Therefore, the legislation will provide for land managers to manage the right of access on their land when the requirements of land management dictate. Those arrangements will inevitably be informal, but land managers will be expected to act responsibly in imposing any limitations on the right of access.

A particular concern was expressed about the access to farm steadings. Many respondents argued that farm steadings are just as much places of work as quarries or factories. Those arguments are persuasive. I have decided that the legislation will exclude farm steadings from the right of access, although there is an important qualification to that. Where a right of way already exists to a farm steading, that will continue.

The consultation also raised concerns about access by groups, particularly commercial groups. It is clear that a balance must be struck. The right of access will apply to individuals. In many cases, individuals will choose to exercise their right collectively; for example, as a family group. We want to encourage that, and it should not create difficulties. However, large organised groups present an altogether different proposition. The legislation will not extend the right to advertise sponsored or promotional events. That is not to say that such events cannot take place, as at present, with the expressed consent of the landowner.

All in all, this is a balanced package of adjustments to the policy proposals that are contained in the white paper. It demonstrates a responsiveness to issues that have been raised on all sides. We have listened and have acted where appropriate. Officials are now at work trying to prepare draft legislation, and I look forward to introducing the draft bill and having the opportunity for more detailed consideration and consultation.

The land reform bill is important. It will make a real difference to communities throughout Scotland that want to take up the right to buy, and to those who want to exercise the right of responsible access to see and experience the scenic heritage of the country in which we live. As I have explained today, the bill will also make a difference to those in the crofting communities who want to buy the land on which they live and work. However, the bill is only one element of our commitments on land reform. The action plan demonstrates the many other commitments that we are honouring. Overall, our land reform agenda is demanding, and one that we are in the process of delivering.

For many years, despite a keenly held desire to make progress in this area, the subject of land reform was lost from the parliamentary stage. The Executive has put it back firmly where it belongs— up front, centre stage. I commend the motion to the Parliament.

I move,

That the Parliament commends the openness of the Scottish Executive's approach to land reform, as demonstrated by the extensive consultations on the Land Reform White Paper published in July; recognises the scale of their overall commitments to legislation and other action on land reform as set out in the Land Reform Action Plan published in August, and welcomes the progress to date as shown in the first Progress Report published earlier this month.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5607365+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C712190", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 232.0, "ContributionID": 712190, "EditedText": "There are several members who wanted to speak in the previous debate, whose names remain on my monitor screen. I ask that the screen be cleared now. I ask members who want to contribute to this debate to press their buttons again. I call Roseanna Cunningham to speak to and to move amendment S1M-313.2.", "EditedTextHTML": "There are several members who wanted to speak in the previous debate, whose names remain on my monitor screen. I ask that the screen be cleared now. I ask members who want to contribute to this debate to press their buttons again.

I call Roseanna Cunningham to speak to and to move amendment S1M-313.2.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5607365+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C712194", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 241.0, "ContributionID": 712194, "EditedText": "You have one minute.", "EditedTextHTML": "You have one minute.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5607365+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1863E284P532C712197", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Cunningham, Roseanna", "ID": 1863, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Perth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Roseanna Cunningham", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Roseanna Cunningham: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 247.0, "ContributionID": 712197, "EditedText": "I wonder whether the minister would comment on a more general issue—which is nevertheless important: the need to review the current structure of quangos in Scotland. At present, farmers and landowners seeking financial assistance or wanting to develop their land can be forced to deal with more than 20 public bodies or agencies. We need some way of reducing that kind of inefficiency. That would allow resources to be redirected, which would assist the land purchase proposals that the Government wants to promote. It would also fulfil one of the Government's other promises: the widely heralded bonfire of the quangos. The extra money would certainly be useful. I note with some amusement that the white paper glides over the issue of financing, as does the progress report. The Executive must not be allowed to avoid addressing the nonsense that the land fund from which the money will come will be held by the Minister for Culture, Media and Sport, not by the Executive in Scotland. The Scottish Government could issue guidelines, but the allocation of moneys to individual programmes would be decided by the operators of the new opportunities fund. Land reform should not be a lottery—that is not acceptable for Scotland. The SNP has always supported community ownership as an option. However, it cannot be the only weapon in the armoury. The SNP's proposals would add to that lone weapon several others, which could only help to further community involvement. Communities would have a variety of options and be able to exercise the real choice that they have been so long denied, and which they would continue to be denied should the Tories ever return to power. I move amendment S1M-313.2, to leave out from \"commends\" to end and insert: \"notes the progress of the Scottish Executive's consultation on the Land Reform White Paper; welcomes the commitment to a community right to purchase contained within the proposals; nevertheless is concerned that these proposals remain too narrowly focused and therefore agrees that they should be widened to include proposals which would increase community involvement in local land management throughout Scotland.\"", "EditedTextHTML": "I wonder whether the minister would comment on a more general issue—which is nevertheless important: the need to review the current structure of quangos in Scotland. At present, farmers and landowners seeking financial assistance or wanting to develop their land can be forced to deal with more than 20 public bodies or agencies. We need some way of reducing that kind of inefficiency. That would allow resources to be redirected, which would assist the land purchase proposals that the Government wants to promote. It would also fulfil one of the Government's other promises: the widely heralded bonfire of the quangos.

The extra money would certainly be useful. I note with some amusement that the white paper glides over the issue of financing, as does the progress report. The Executive must not be allowed to avoid addressing the nonsense that the land fund from which the money will come will be held by the Minister for Culture, Media and Sport, not by the Executive in Scotland. The Scottish Government could issue guidelines, but the allocation of moneys to individual programmes would be decided by the operators of the new opportunities fund. Land reform should not be a lottery—that is not acceptable for Scotland.

The SNP has always supported community ownership as an option. However, it cannot be the only weapon in the armoury. The SNP's proposals would add to that lone weapon several others, which could only help to further community involvement. Communities would have a variety of options and be able to exercise the real choice that they have been so long denied, and which they would continue to be denied should the Tories ever return to power.

I move amendment S1M-313.2, to leave out from \"commends\" to end and insert:

\"notes the progress of the Scottish Executive's consultation on the Land Reform White Paper; welcomes the commitment to a community right to purchase contained within the proposals; nevertheless is concerned that these proposals remain too narrowly focused and therefore agrees that they should be widened to include proposals which would increase community involvement in local land management throughout Scotland.\"

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5607365+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1893E47P78C712198", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnstone, Alex", "ID": 1893, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Johnstone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Johnstone (North-East Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 250.0, "ContributionID": 712198, "EditedText": "Presiding Officer, I begin by drawing your attention to my entry in the register of members' interests, particularly my membership of the Scottish Landowners Federation. In his introduction to the white paper, the Deputy First Minister states that land reform and radical change are \"crucial to rural Scotland\". I suggest that there is an unprecedented crisis in rural Scotland. I suggest that the people of Scotland expect the Executive to take some action to relieve their increasing suffering. The practice of some Executive back-bench members—of blaming the Tories for everything, hoping that no one will notice their own inadequacies—is wearing a bit thin. With our traditional rural industries in economic free fall, Jim Wallace must stand up and say, \"Let them have land reform.\" The idea of community right-to-buy is the product of several problems that have arisen in the Highlands and Islands—Assynt, Knoydart and Eigg are the grand examples. The Conservatives have no objection to attempts to find imaginative and radical solutions to such problems. Indeed, the actions taken by Lord Forsyth when he was Secretary of State for Scotland demonstrate that we are happy to take the lead where an obvious and proven demand for new forms of land ownership exist.", "EditedTextHTML": "Presiding Officer, I begin by drawing your attention to my entry in the register of members' interests, particularly my membership of the Scottish Landowners Federation.

In his introduction to the white paper, the Deputy First Minister states that land reform and radical change are \"crucial to rural Scotland\". I suggest that there is an unprecedented crisis in rural Scotland. I suggest that the people of Scotland expect the Executive to take some action to relieve their increasing suffering. The practice of

some Executive back-bench members—of blaming the Tories for everything, hoping that no one will notice their own inadequacies—is wearing a bit thin. With our traditional rural industries in economic free fall, Jim Wallace must stand up and say, \"Let them have land reform.\"

The idea of community right-to-buy is the product of several problems that have arisen in the Highlands and Islands—Assynt, Knoydart and Eigg are the grand examples. The Conservatives have no objection to attempts to find imaginative and radical solutions to such problems. Indeed, the actions taken by Lord Forsyth when he was Secretary of State for Scotland demonstrate that we are happy to take the lead where an obvious and proven demand for new forms of land ownership exist.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5607365+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1893E47P78C712202", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnstone, Alex", "ID": 1893, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Johnstone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Johnstone: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 258.0, "ContributionID": 712202, "EditedText": "No.No one on this side of the chamber opposes the concept of community ownership of land. Indeed, we are greatly interested in the progress of the examples that I have mentioned. However, we are greatly concerned about the Executive's apparent view that community ownership is the ideal.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

No one on this side of the chamber opposes the concept of community ownership of land. Indeed, we are greatly interested in the progress of the examples that I have mentioned. However, we are greatly concerned about the Executive's apparent view that community ownership is the ideal.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5607365+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C712203", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan (Glasgow) (SSP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 260.0, "ContributionID": 712203, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5607365+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1893E47P78C712204", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnstone, Alex", "ID": 1893, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Johnstone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Johnstone: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 262.0, "ContributionID": 712204, "EditedText": "Not at this point.", "EditedTextHTML": "Not at this point.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5607365+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1893E47P78C712209", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnstone, Alex", "ID": 1893, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Johnstone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Johnstone: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 272.0, "ContributionID": 712209, "EditedText": "Not at this point.The opportunity to purchase land in other parts of the United Kingdom and Europe, unhampered by regulations, will, without a shadow of a doubt, lead to immediate erosion of land values in Scotland. The willingness of landowners to invest in their property will also be reduced if they believe that there is a limitation in the long-term value of their investment. These proposals are, in the opinion of many, both cumbersome and unworkable. They are a clear example of taking a sledgehammer to crack a nut. They are a clear case of a solution that is grossly disproportionate to the problem. They are, quite simply, a massive over-reaction.", "EditedTextHTML": "Not at this point.

The opportunity to purchase land in other parts of the United Kingdom and Europe, unhampered by regulations, will, without a shadow of a doubt, lead to immediate erosion of land values in Scotland. The willingness of landowners to invest in their property will also be reduced if they believe that there is a limitation in the long-term value of their investment.

These proposals are, in the opinion of many, both cumbersome and unworkable. They are a clear example of taking a sledgehammer to crack a nut. They are a clear case of a solution that is grossly disproportionate to the problem. They are, quite simply, a massive over-reaction.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5607365+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1888E265P358C712210", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morgan, Alasdair", "ID": 1888, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Galloway and Upper Nithsdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morgan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alasdair Morgan rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 274.0, "ContributionID": 712210, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5607365+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C712212", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 278.0, "ContributionID": 712212, "EditedText": "Order.", "EditedTextHTML": "Order.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5607365+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C712215", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 284.0, "ContributionID": 712215, "EditedText": "You still have three minutes, Mr Johnstone.", "EditedTextHTML": "You still have three minutes, Mr Johnstone.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5607365+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1893E47P78C712231", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnstone, Alex", "ID": 1893, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Johnstone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Johnstone: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 316.0, "ContributionID": 712231, "EditedText": "In winding up, I shall address one final point about the European convention on human rights. There are still people in the countryside who are concerned that the proposals in the white paper may fall foul of the convention. I would like to be reassured that that has been taken into consideration and that any problems that may arise as a result of it will be dealt with before a bill is published.", "EditedTextHTML": "In winding up, I shall address one final point about the European convention on human rights. There are still people in the countryside who are concerned that the proposals in the white paper may fall foul of the convention. I would like to be reassured that that has been taken into consideration and that any problems that may arise as a result of it will be dealt with before a bill is published.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5607365+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C712232", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 318.0, "ContributionID": 712232, "EditedText": "Will Mr Johnstone give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr Johnstone give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5607365+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C712233", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 320.0, "ContributionID": 712233, "EditedText": "I must ask the member to wind up as he has already taken a minute longer than is allowed.", "EditedTextHTML": "I must ask the member to wind up as he has already taken a minute longer than is allowed.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5607365+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1840E82P158C712240", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macmillan, Maureen", "ID": 1840, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Maureen Macmillan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Maureen Macmillan (Highlands and Islands) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 337.0, "ContributionID": 712240, "EditedText": "I welcome the opportunity to comment on the progress that has so far been made on land reform and the Executive's openness in lodging the motion for debate today. Land reform is not an empty gesture to members of the old Highland Land League or the Crofter's party MPs of the past; it is the base on which we will build a modern economy in the Highlands, having got rid of the dead hand of landlordism. When the proposals for legislation were published, many gave them a qualified welcome. There were significant steps forward. Community bodies were to be able to register their interest in the land on which they lived and worked and to have time to assess whether they wanted to buy the land. Many of my constituents in rural areas were concerned that the proposals did not do enough to empower their communities. I therefore welcome the Deputy First Minister's statement that shows that many of those concerns have been heard and will be acted on. I welcome the wider definition of the community body. Members will understand that, under the original definition, some areas of land would not have been part of the community land initiative. Broadening the definition of community to include owner-occupiers who live on the estate would be useful, as would extending the definition to communities adjacent to land in which they have an interest. That would allow access to new land where houses could be built and businesses and crofts could be set up. We must think about how many businesses the land can support—not just how many crofts—if the Highland economy is to be taken into the 21st century. I welcome the inclusion in the proposal of an emergency provision to allow late registration of interest. Large areas of land in the Highlands and Islands have not been on sale in living memory. Maintaining community interest could be difficult as there are changes in the nature of communities, land-use management and Government policy. If land comes on the market after a community has decided to deregister, or it has not registered because it never expected land to come up for sale, an emergency late registration process is essential. I whole-heartedly support plans to increase responsible access. I can think of one set of gates in a Highland glen on which I will personally nail this legislation when it is passed. The issue of access is important for the Highlands and Islands. Tourism is a major industry and increased access will help it by bringing a greater number of tourists into the area who will support many businesses. I welcome the plans to encourage responsible walkers. Hill walking already brings £3.5 million to Ross-shire every year. Walking in forests and straths will attract families and old people who prefer using easily accessed paths. This is a niche market with enormous potential for the Highlands. The proposals for land reform offer the opportunity to bring forward a permanent and workable solution to the problems of the Highlands and Islands that successive Governments have sought to address. We must look at how we deal with ill-used land that never comes on the market. I hope that the Executive will continue to listen to the people of the Highlands and Islands as the bill progresses. I welcome the progress that has been made and the Deputy First Minister's announcement, and I am happy to support the Executive's motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the opportunity to comment on the progress that has so far been made on land reform and the Executive's openness in lodging the motion for debate today.

Land reform is not an empty gesture to members of the old Highland Land League or the Crofter's party MPs of the past; it is the base on which we will build a modern economy in the Highlands, having got rid of the dead hand of landlordism.

When the proposals for legislation were published, many gave them a qualified welcome. There were significant steps forward. Community bodies were to be able to register their interest in the land on which they lived and worked and to have time to assess whether they wanted to buy the land. Many of my constituents in rural areas were concerned that the proposals did not do enough to empower their communities. I therefore welcome the Deputy First Minister's statement that shows that many of those concerns have been heard and will be acted on.

I welcome the wider definition of the community body. Members will understand that, under the original definition, some areas of land would not have been part of the community land initiative. Broadening the definition of community to include owner-occupiers who live on the estate would be useful, as would extending the definition to communities adjacent to land in which they have an interest. That would allow access to new land where houses could be built and businesses and crofts could be set up. We must think about how many businesses the land can support—not just how many crofts—if the Highland economy is to be taken into the 21st century.

I welcome the inclusion in the proposal of an emergency provision to allow late registration of interest. Large areas of land in the Highlands and Islands have not been on sale in living memory. Maintaining community interest could be difficult as there are changes in the nature of communities, land-use management and Government policy. If land comes on the market after a community has decided to deregister, or it has not registered because it never expected land to come up for sale, an emergency late registration process is essential.

I whole-heartedly support plans to increase responsible access. I can think of one set of gates in a Highland glen on which I will personally nail this legislation when it is passed.

The issue of access is important for the Highlands and Islands. Tourism is a major industry and increased access will help it by bringing a greater number of tourists into the area who will support many businesses. I welcome the plans to encourage responsible walkers. Hill walking already brings £3.5 million to Ross-shire every year. Walking in forests and straths will attract families and old people who prefer using easily accessed paths. This is a niche market with enormous potential for the Highlands.

The proposals for land reform offer the opportunity to bring forward a permanent and workable solution to the problems of the Highlands and Islands that successive Governments have sought to address. We must look at how we deal with ill-used land that never comes on the market. I hope that the Executive will continue to listen to the people of the Highlands and Islands as the bill progresses.

I welcome the progress that has been made and the Deputy First Minister's announcement, and I am happy to support the Executive's motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5607365+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C712241", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 340.0, "ContributionID": 712241, "EditedText": "I am sympathetic to some aspects of community land ownership. I welcome the minister's comments on the crofting situation, which fall into line with the directions set by the former Secretary of State for Scotland, Michael Forsyth. On that basis, we could not do anything other than give support to the minister. I have reservations about what has been said about access to land and I feel that the proposals are a little over the top. As someone who enjoys our countryside, I must say that I have never found any difficulty with landowners—I adopt a common-sense approach to access when I am in the countryside. Maureen Macmillan referred to the amount of cash that is brought into Ross-shire by tourists. That demonstrates that the problems are not as great as they might appear to be. Shudders run down my spine when I consider the amount of legislation that is involved in the action plan. I forecast that there will be confusion and complication, when it should be simple for people to enjoy our countryside. All that is recognised in Alex Johnstone's amendment.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sympathetic to some aspects of community land ownership. I welcome the minister's comments on the crofting situation, which fall into line with the directions set by the former Secretary of State for Scotland, Michael Forsyth. On that basis, we could not do anything other than give support to the minister.

I have reservations about what has been said about access to land and I feel that the proposals are a little over the top. As someone who enjoys our countryside, I must say that I have never found any difficulty with landowners—I adopt a common-sense approach to access when I am in the countryside. Maureen Macmillan referred to the amount of cash that is brought into Ross-shire by tourists. That demonstrates that the problems are not as great as they might appear to be.

Shudders run down my spine when I consider the amount of legislation that is involved in the action plan. I forecast that there will be confusion and complication, when it should be simple for people to enjoy our countryside. All that is recognised in Alex Johnstone's amendment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5607365+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1888E265P358C712242", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morgan, Alasdair", "ID": 1888, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Galloway and Upper Nithsdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morgan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alasdair Morgan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 342.0, "ContributionID": 712242, "EditedText": "Is Phil Gallie saying that there is no problem with access and that legislation will not increase the amount of access? Is he objecting to the fact that legislation is being passed?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is Phil Gallie saying that there is no problem with access and that legislation will not increase the amount of access? Is he objecting to the fact that legislation is being passed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5607365+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C712247", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 352.0, "ContributionID": 712247, "EditedText": "On community purchase, I welcome the fact that the people of Millport have been able to take the Island of Cumbrae into ownership. That shows that such purchase can already happen. I would like to say much more, but I see that I am getting the nod from the Presiding Officer. I look forward to the bill being introduced so that it can be analysed in the Justice and Home Affairs Committee and the Rural Affairs Committee. There are many bugs in it, but there are one or two good points.", "EditedTextHTML": "On community purchase, I welcome the fact that the people of Millport have been able to take the Island of Cumbrae into ownership. That shows that such purchase can already happen.

I would like to say much more, but I see that I am getting the nod from the Presiding Officer. I look forward to the bill being introduced so that it can be analysed in the Justice and Home Affairs Committee and the Rural Affairs Committee. There are many bugs in it, but there are one or two good points.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5607365+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2085E206P337C712248", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Munro, John Farquhar", "ID": 2085, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ross, Skye and Inverness West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Farquhar Munro", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr John Munro (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 355.0, "ContributionID": 712248, "EditedText": "As somebody who was brought up on a Highland estate and spent many years of my young life there, I welcome the opportunity to debate land reform. I am well acquainted with many of the issues that concern the community in which I grew up. Many of those issues have been addressed in \"Land Reform: Proposals for Legislation\". I support much of what is incorporated in the document, and I hope that as the bill passes through the various stages of the parliamentary process, the proposals will be further honed and strengthened and will gain the support of the vast majority in this Parliament. Much of the document is acceptable and many of the proposals are innovative and new. However, some sections of our community have been overlooked, or have not been given sufficiently serious consideration. I refer in particular to the tenant farmers. Under the legislation at present, tenant farmers do not enjoy the security of tenure enjoyed by crofters. They do not have an assured tenancy over a period of years. That issue merits serious consideration. Tenant farmers do not have the right to buy; the legislation should include measures to give them the same privileges as those currently enjoyed by crofters, who have the option of buying their croft at something like 15 times their annual rent. The legislation should afford that possibility to our tenant farmers. The proposals on crofting lack the commitment that I would like. I am happy to accept that the crofter has the right to buy his land within the township, but he will not be allowed to acquire the sporting rights or the mineral rights. We should incorporate it in the legislation that, when a crofter buys a piece of territory, they have absolute ownership of that territory's sporting and mineral rights. Over many years, much has been said about the feudal system, and I am glad that legislation will address that anomaly. It is an antiquated system that should have been flung out years ago. However, other aspects of the feudal system should be considered. The rights of pre-emption, for instance, are anathema to many people. Written into some of the title documents that are currently being exchanged between parties are archaic conditions and burdens that do not bear scrutiny as we approach the new millennium. With any compulsory purchase initiative, there is no absolute guarantee of success—you win some, you lose some. For that reason, we should be careful about how we proceed with such schemes. However, where a community has shown interest in a piece of land—and I do not mean a community that lives and works on the land, as the document suggests—and it can be demonstrated that a compulsory purchase initiative would benefit the wider community, it should be supported. In such cases, the identity of the community must be clearly stated. I know of many excellent landlords who, in co-operation with the local community, have generated a quite remarkable vibrancy and viability in rural Scotland. We should continue to support their efforts. However, there are also many landlords who are not so co-operative or constructive. That is the situation with which the land reform document seeks to deal. Many estates and pieces of land have already been bought for the resident community with the support of public agencies and public money, and that is to be welcomed. However, we must ensure that we continue to support communities' efforts to demonstrate that their units are and will continue to be viable in the long term. If that does not happen and the units fall apart, the concept of community land ownership will become an embarrassment and disappear into the Highland mist, in the words of our bard, Robbie Burns, \"like the snow falls in a river, A moment white—then melts for ever.\" I am pleased to inform my colleagues in the parliamentary party that today I will vote in support of the motion in the name of Jim Wallace.", "EditedTextHTML": "As somebody who was brought up on a Highland estate and spent many years of my young life there, I welcome the opportunity to debate land reform.

I am well acquainted with many of the issues that concern the community in which I grew up. Many of those issues have been addressed in \"Land Reform: Proposals for Legislation\". I support much of what is incorporated in the document, and I hope that as the bill passes through the various stages of the parliamentary process, the proposals will be further honed and strengthened and will gain the support of the vast majority in this Parliament.

Much of the document is acceptable and many of the proposals are innovative and new. However, some sections of our community have been overlooked, or have not been given sufficiently serious consideration. I refer in particular to the tenant farmers. Under the legislation at present, tenant farmers do not enjoy the security of tenure enjoyed by crofters. They do not have an assured tenancy over a period of years. That issue merits serious consideration.

Tenant farmers do not have the right to buy; the legislation should include measures to give them the same privileges as those currently enjoyed by crofters, who have the option of buying their croft at something like 15 times their annual rent. The legislation should afford that possibility to our tenant farmers.

The proposals on crofting lack the commitment that I would like. I am happy to accept that the crofter has the right to buy his land within the township, but he will not be allowed to acquire the sporting rights or the mineral rights. We should incorporate it in the legislation that, when a crofter buys a piece of territory, they have absolute ownership of that territory's sporting and mineral rights.

Over many years, much has been said about the feudal system, and I am glad that legislation will address that anomaly. It is an antiquated system that should have been flung out years ago. However, other aspects of the feudal system should be considered. The rights of pre-emption, for instance, are anathema to many people. Written into some of the title documents that are currently being exchanged between parties are archaic conditions and burdens that do not bear scrutiny as we approach the new millennium.

With any compulsory purchase initiative, there is no absolute guarantee of success—you win some, you lose some. For that reason, we should be careful about how we proceed with such schemes. However, where a community has shown interest in a piece of land—and I do not mean a community that lives and works on the land, as the document suggests—and it can be demonstrated that a compulsory purchase initiative would benefit the wider community, it should be supported. In such cases, the identity of the community must be clearly stated.

I know of many excellent landlords who, in co-operation with the local community, have generated a quite remarkable vibrancy and viability in rural Scotland. We should continue to support their efforts. However, there are also many landlords who are not so co-operative or constructive. That is the situation with which the land reform document seeks to deal.

Many estates and pieces of land have already been bought for the resident community with the support of public agencies and public money, and that is to be welcomed. However, we must ensure

that we continue to support communities' efforts to demonstrate that their units are and will continue to be viable in the long term. If that does not happen and the units fall apart, the concept of community land ownership will become an embarrassment and disappear into the Highland mist, in the words of our bard, Robbie Burns,

\"like the snow falls in a river, A moment white—then melts for ever.\"

I am pleased to inform my colleagues in the parliamentary party that today I will vote in support of the motion in the name of Jim Wallace.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5607365+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C712264", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie (Lothians) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 394.0, "ContributionID": 712264, "EditedText": "We introduced the Factory Acts.", "EditedTextHTML": "We introduced the Factory Acts.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5607365+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2080E130P217C712249", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lamont, Johann", "ID": 2080, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Pollok" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Johann Lamont", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Johann Lamont (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 358.0, "ContributionID": 712249, "EditedText": "I welcome the minister's statement and the priority that the Government has given to the issue of land reform. The issues of land ownership, access and the use and misuse of the power that lies with those who own our land are a touchstone of the politics of many us in the chamber. It is ironic that those who, in the case of field and blood sports, would like us to celebrate the countryside, should make it quite clear, when it comes to access, that they want us to celebrate it from afar. For that reason, I welcome the document's proposals on access. It is also important to address the Tories' attempts to collapse together the interests of landowners and the interests of rural communities, which are not necessarily the same thing. I trust that members will allow me to relate a bit of personal history. Jim Wallace made the point that Parliament had not seriously addressed the question of land reform for almost 75 years. In 1918, my great-uncle, William McPhail—a bard with, I believe, a particularly satirical turn of phrase and a crofter on the island of Tiree—went to jail, along with seven others, for the crime of planting the land for which they were negotiating the right to rent. The negotiation was being delayed by the farmer involved and by the proprietor, the Duke of Argyll. The dispute ended in court—on the one hand, because of the courage of those impoverished men in asserting their rights to feed themselves and their families and their determination to fight for the rights of their local community to sustain itself, and on the other, because of the obduracy of those who felt that they had the power to control that community because they owned the land. The only thing that those impoverished but courageous people had in common with those who sought to exploit them was their Scottishness. Opposite us is the Scottish National party, which believes that we should construct our entire constitutional existence on the basis of that Scottishness. The treatment of my great-uncle— and, over the years, many others like him— clarified for me as much as anything else why I am a socialist and not a nationalist. It is crucial that we identify the real targets in tackling inequality and injustice. The experience of the clearance and exploitation of rural communities is not specific to Scotland, but it is particular to communities where ownership is concentrated in a few hands. Equally, the ability to ride roughshod over local community interests is not particular to foreign landowners. We must recognise the consequence of the concentration of power in the pattern of ownership in Scotland. I welcome the fact that the Government is seeking to shift the balance in favour of local communities that are committed to sustaining their own areas and determining their own priorities. Land reform is an on-going process. I wish to identify two areas to which the Executive might wish to turn its attention in the near future. One is Deaconsbank, which is in my constituency of Glasgow Pollok. Barratt built 639 houses in Deaconsbank between 1977 and 1982. After development, 27 acres of land were left undeveloped, the title to which, I understand, remains with Barratt. However, the maintenance of the land is both legally and literally a burden on the local residents. They must maintain the land, although the ownership and hence the right to develop or dispose of it remains with Barratt. There has been much talk in recent years of rights being matched with responsibilities. Unfortunately, because of Barratt's shabby behaviour and the archaic nature of land tenure in Scotland, Deaconsbank residents have responsibilities, but no rights. I hope that at some stage the minister will consider acting against unjust burdens such as those imposed in Deaconsbank and, doubtless, in many other communities in Scotland. I wish to mention another area, which was highlighted by Age Concern—retirement housing. It is important in terms of rights; the contractual terms in many deeds of conditions are unsatisfactory. I hope that the Executive can consider that area. I declare an interest as a member of the co-operative party, because I wish to highlight an area of particular significance to the debate on land reform—the power of co-operation in communities. Rather than communities being handed a programme that is good for them, co-operation gives communities the means by which they can be empowered to take control over their own lives. We must recognise and seek to build into all areas of our social and economic lives an opportunity to co-operate, to develop community business and to celebrate the social forms of ownership.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the minister's statement and the priority that the Government has given to the issue of land reform. The issues of land ownership, access and the use and misuse of the power that lies with those who own our land are a touchstone of the politics of many us in the chamber. It is ironic that those who, in the case of field and blood sports, would like us to celebrate the countryside, should make it quite clear, when it comes to access, that they want us to celebrate it from afar. For that reason, I welcome the document's proposals on access. It is also important to address the Tories' attempts to collapse together the interests of landowners and the interests of rural communities, which are not necessarily the same thing.

I trust that members will allow me to relate a bit of personal history. Jim Wallace made the point that Parliament had not seriously addressed the question of land reform for almost 75 years. In 1918, my great-uncle, William McPhail—a bard with, I believe, a particularly satirical turn of phrase and a crofter on the island of Tiree—went to jail, along with seven others, for the crime of planting the land for which they were negotiating the right to rent. The negotiation was being delayed by the farmer involved and by the proprietor, the Duke of Argyll. The dispute ended in court—on the one hand, because of the courage of those impoverished men in asserting their rights to feed themselves and their families and their determination to fight for the rights of their local community to sustain itself, and on the other, because of the obduracy of those who felt that they had the power to control that community because they owned the land.

The only thing that those impoverished but courageous people had in common with those who sought to exploit them was their Scottishness. Opposite us is the Scottish National party, which believes that we should construct our entire constitutional existence on the basis of that Scottishness. The treatment of my great-uncle— and, over the years, many others like him— clarified for me as much as anything else why I am a socialist and not a nationalist.

It is crucial that we identify the real targets in tackling inequality and injustice. The experience of the clearance and exploitation of rural communities is not specific to Scotland, but it is particular to communities where ownership is concentrated in a few hands. Equally, the ability to ride roughshod over local community interests is not particular to foreign landowners. We must recognise the consequence of the concentration of power in the pattern of ownership in Scotland. I welcome the fact that the Government is seeking to shift the balance in favour of local communities that are committed to sustaining their own areas and determining their own priorities.

Land reform is an on-going process. I wish to identify two areas to which the Executive might wish to turn its attention in the near future. One is Deaconsbank, which is in my constituency of Glasgow Pollok. Barratt built 639 houses in Deaconsbank between 1977 and 1982. After development, 27 acres of land were left undeveloped, the title to which, I understand, remains with Barratt. However, the maintenance of the land is both legally and literally a burden on the local residents. They must maintain the land, although the ownership and hence the right to develop or dispose of it remains with Barratt.

There has been much talk in recent years of rights being matched with responsibilities. Unfortunately, because of Barratt's shabby behaviour and the archaic nature of land tenure in Scotland, Deaconsbank residents have responsibilities, but no rights. I hope that at some stage the minister will consider acting against unjust burdens such as those imposed in Deaconsbank and, doubtless, in many other communities in Scotland.

I wish to mention another area, which was highlighted by Age Concern—retirement housing. It is important in terms of rights; the contractual terms in many deeds of conditions are unsatisfactory. I hope that the Executive can consider that area.

I declare an interest as a member of the co-operative party, because I wish to highlight an area of particular significance to the debate on land reform—the power of co-operation in communities. Rather than communities being handed a programme that is good for them, co-operation gives communities the means by which they can be empowered to take control over their own lives.

We must recognise and seek to build into all areas of our social and economic lives an opportunity to co-operate, to develop community business and to celebrate the social forms of ownership.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5607365+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C712252", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 366.0, "ContributionID": 712252, "EditedText": "Will Mr Wilson give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr Wilson give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5763611+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1990E181P340C712257", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robson, Euan", "ID": 1990, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Roxburgh and Berwickshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Euan Robson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Euan Robson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 378.0, "ContributionID": 712257, "EditedText": "I regret that I cannot answer that, as I do not entirely understand its context. I will consider it and reply privately to the member. As the minister said, it is important that the community body has to demonstrate a direct community interest in a piece of land. Other important changes are that the community—in the absence of agreement—will have to buy the land as lotted and that time scales will be tightened. Significant changes have been announced on access. I welcome, in particular, the exclusion of farm steadings, which is an important and necessary change. I also believe that where there is an established network of footpaths, in particular over enclosed land, we might have to presume that those should be used for access. We can consider those points when the bill is published. I also have some reservations about access to inland waterways. Without doubt, the Executive will take comfort from the fact that its motion sits between what might be described as the two extremes of the amendments. I must say that if Alex Johnstone is interested in progress, what he has told us about his policy today makes the snail look fleet of foot.", "EditedTextHTML": "I regret that I cannot answer that, as I do not entirely understand its context. I will consider it and reply privately to the member.

As the minister said, it is important that the community body has to demonstrate a direct community interest in a piece of land. Other important changes are that the community—in the absence of agreement—will have to buy the land as lotted and that time scales will be tightened.

Significant changes have been announced on access. I welcome, in particular, the exclusion of farm steadings, which is an important and necessary change. I also believe that where there is an established network of footpaths, in particular over enclosed land, we might have to presume that those should be used for access.

We can consider those points when the bill is published. I also have some reservations about access to inland waterways.

Without doubt, the Executive will take comfort from the fact that its motion sits between what might be described as the two extremes of the amendments. I must say that if Alex Johnstone is interested in progress, what he has told us about his policy today makes the snail look fleet of foot.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5763611+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1892E34P73C712258", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Fergusson, Alex", "ID": 1892, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Fergusson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Fergusson (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 381.0, "ContributionID": 712258, "EditedText": "I begin by declaring four interests: I am a landowner, a landlord, a farmer and a member of the Scottish Landowners Federation. I hope that that does not preclude me from speaking today. The ubiquitous Andy Wightman, a gentleman with whom I rarely find myself in agreement, asks what is to be made of the agenda for land reform—is it well informed, well targeted and radical? He says that one would like to think so but that, on closer examination, much of it turns out to be shallow and superficial; it presents a range of palliative measures that address symptoms rather than the underlying problems. I agree with Andy Wightman on this occasion, because he is saying that the Scottish Executive's proposals are an ill thought out, knee-jerk reaction to a perceived need for land reform. I question whether that need exists. Most important, as our amendment suggests, the proposals will do nothing whatever to alleviate the desperate economic situation in which rural Scotland finds itself. As Alex Johnstone pointed out, the Deputy First Minister, in his introduction to \"Land Reform: Proposals for Legislation\", which was published in July, stated that land reform was \"crucial for rural Scotland\". I contend that it is nothing of the sort. One can argue about whether it is desirable, but it is certainly not crucial. Jim Wallace also said that the advent of the Scottish Parliament finally gave us an opportunity to debate the policies that were right for Scotland—the debate on land reform is a good example of that.", "EditedTextHTML": "I begin by declaring four interests: I am a landowner, a landlord, a farmer and a member of the Scottish Landowners Federation. I hope that that does not preclude me from speaking today.

The ubiquitous Andy Wightman, a gentleman with whom I rarely find myself in agreement, asks what is to be made of the agenda for land reform—is it well informed, well targeted and radical? He says that one would like to think so but that, on closer examination, much of it turns out to be shallow and superficial; it presents a range of palliative measures that address symptoms rather than the underlying problems.

I agree with Andy Wightman on this occasion, because he is saying that the Scottish Executive's proposals are an ill thought out, knee-jerk reaction to a perceived need for land reform. I question whether that need exists. Most important, as our amendment suggests, the proposals will do nothing whatever to alleviate the desperate economic situation in which rural Scotland finds itself.

As Alex Johnstone pointed out, the Deputy First Minister, in his introduction to \"Land Reform: Proposals for Legislation\", which was published in July, stated that land reform was \"crucial for rural Scotland\". I contend that it is nothing of the sort. One can argue about whether it is desirable, but it is certainly not crucial.

Jim Wallace also said that the advent of the Scottish Parliament finally gave us an opportunity to debate the policies that were right for Scotland—the debate on land reform is a good example of that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5763611+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C712262", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 390.0, "ContributionID": 712262, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5763611+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C712268", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Angus MacKay: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 403.0, "ContributionID": 712268, "EditedText": "Not at the moment.The legislation is also about creating local forums to ensure that all the interests that make up the countryside—landowners, farmers, local authorities and people using the countryside— have the opportunity to co-operate to deliver policies that protect the countryside as well as make it available for the use of all the people of Scotland. The Executive's plans for legislation include three bills, covering feudal reform, community ownership and access, and national parks. We are delivering what we promised and we are doing so—I think that all members will agree—in a genuine spirit of openness. Regardless of whether members agree with the legislation, in whole or in part, we have conducted the process with openness. The consultation on the land reform white paper has thrown up many good ideas and has considerably helped the development of the legislation. That demonstrates the value of consultation. The Deputy First Minister has announced the way in which we intend to make improvements to the land reform bill as a consequence of that consultation. I am particularly pleased that it will now be possible to include in the first bill provisions to create the crofting community right to buy. That is a critical measure for some of the most marginalised communities in the Highlands and Islands. The right to buy will create a genuine opportunity for those communities to take into their own hands their future well-being, in terms of housing, economic development and the ability to maintain vitality and population in the long term. I cannot stress too strongly how pleased I am that that is being included in this legislation.", "EditedTextHTML": "Not at the moment.

The legislation is also about creating local forums to ensure that all the interests that make up the countryside—landowners, farmers, local authorities and people using the countryside— have the opportunity to co-operate to deliver policies that protect the countryside as well as make it available for the use of all the people of Scotland.

The Executive's plans for legislation include three bills, covering feudal reform, community ownership and access, and national parks. We are delivering what we promised and we are doing so—I think that all members will agree—in a genuine spirit of openness. Regardless of whether members agree with the legislation, in whole or in part, we have conducted the process with openness. The consultation on the land reform white paper has thrown up many good ideas and has considerably helped the development of the legislation. That demonstrates the value of consultation. The Deputy First Minister has announced the way in which we intend to make improvements to the land reform bill as a consequence of that consultation.

I am particularly pleased that it will now be possible to include in the first bill provisions to create the crofting community right to buy. That is a critical measure for some of the most marginalised communities in the Highlands and Islands. The right to buy will create a genuine opportunity for those communities to take into their own hands their future well-being, in terms of housing, economic development and the ability to maintain vitality and population in the long term. I cannot stress too strongly how pleased I am that that is being included in this legislation.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5763611+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C712274", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Angus MacKay: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 415.0, "ContributionID": 712274, "EditedText": "I am happy to deal with that point and I will make two further ones. The Executive will pay for administration costs and compensation in relation to this legislation. I am happy that the land fund will be able to help communities with the purchase price of the land as it becomes available. Scottish ministers will be closely involved with the development of the land fund; we are working on its composition at the moment. I expect there to be a very strong Scottish influence, if not a predominantly Scottish one, over the fund's management. That is something for further discussion and I am happy to return to it at a later date. I think that it was Alex Johnstone who asked why the bill applied across all rural and remote Scotland. The land reform policy group proposed that the right to buy should be limited to fragile areas. The white paper, however, as Alex rightly suggests, extends the right across rural Scotland. The Executive wants the opportunities that the legislation will provide to be available to all rural communities, not to a restricted few. The extended consultation that has taken place has made it clear that an overwhelming majority is in favour of extending the legislation to cover all rural and remote Scotland. I hope that that answers the point about the structuring of the proposals.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am happy to deal with that point and I will make two further ones.

The Executive will pay for administration costs and compensation in relation to this legislation. I am happy that the land fund will be able to help communities with the purchase price of the land as it becomes available. Scottish ministers will be closely involved with the development of the land fund; we are working on its composition at the moment. I expect there to be a very strong Scottish influence, if not a predominantly Scottish one, over the fund's management. That is something for further discussion and I am happy to return to it at a later date.

I think that it was Alex Johnstone who asked why the bill applied across all rural and remote Scotland. The land reform policy group proposed that the right to buy should be limited to fragile areas. The white paper, however, as Alex rightly suggests, extends the right across rural Scotland. The Executive wants the opportunities that the legislation will provide to be available to all rural communities, not to a restricted few. The extended consultation that has taken place has made it clear that an overwhelming majority is in favour of extending the legislation to cover all rural and remote Scotland. I hope that that answers the point about the structuring of the proposals.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5763611+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C712275", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Patricia Ferguson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 417.0, "ContributionID": 712275, "EditedText": "Will you wind up now please, Mr MacKay?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will you wind up now please, Mr MacKay?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5763611+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C712283", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27107, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 426.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 426.0, "ID": 27107, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 435.0, "ContributionID": 712283, "EditedText": "The result of the division is: For 32, Against 83, Abstentions 0.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result of the division is: For 32, Against 83, Abstentions 0.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5763611+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712284", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27107, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 426.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 426.0, "ID": 27107, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 437.0, "ContributionID": 712284, "EditedText": "Amendment disagreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment disagreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5763611+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712286", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27107, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 426.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 426.0, "ID": 27107, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 440.0, "ContributionID": 712286, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5763611+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C712289", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27107, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 426.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 426.0, "ID": 27107, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 445.0, "ContributionID": 712289, "EditedText": "The result of the division is: For 19, Against 96, Abstentions 0.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result of the division is: For 19, Against 96, Abstentions 0.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5763611+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C712291", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27107, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 426.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 426.0, "ID": 27107, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 448.0, "ContributionID": 712291, "EditedText": "The third question is, that motion S1M-314, in the name of Ms Wendy Alexander, on social justice targets, be agreed to. Are we agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "The third question is, that motion S1M-314, in the name of Ms Wendy Alexander, on social justice targets, be agreed to. Are we agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5763611+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C712295", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27107, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 426.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 426.0, "ID": 27107, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 455.0, "ContributionID": 712295, "EditedText": "The result of the division is: For 64, Against 33, Abstentions 18.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result of the division is: For 64, Against 33, Abstentions 18.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5763611+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712297", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27107, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 426.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 426.0, "ID": 27107, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 458.0, "ContributionID": 712297, "EditedText": "That the Parliament agrees that social justice should be the hallmark of Scottish society; welcomes the publication by the Scottish Executive of the groundbreaking report Social Justice …a Scotland where everyone matters and the targets, milestones and developments in budgetary mechanisms that it contains, and commends this as an example of the success of the Partnership Agreement and as an appropriate opportunity to work with the UK Government for the betterment of Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament agrees that social justice should be the hallmark of Scottish society; welcomes the publication by the Scottish Executive of the groundbreaking report Social Justice …a Scotland where everyone matters and the targets, milestones and developments in budgetary mechanisms that it contains, and commends this as an example of the success of the Partnership Agreement and as an appropriate opportunity to work with the UK Government for the betterment of Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5763611+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C712304", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27107, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 426.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 426.0, "ID": 27107, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 469.0, "ContributionID": 712304, "EditedText": "The fifth question is that amendment S1M-313.1, in the name of Alex Johnstone, which seeks to amend motion S1M-313, in the name of Mr Jim Wallace, on land reform, be agreed to. Are we agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "The fifth question is that amendment S1M-313.1, in the name of Alex Johnstone, which seeks to amend motion S1M-313, in the name of Mr Jim Wallace, on land reform, be agreed to. Are we agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5763611+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712305", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27107, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 426.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 426.0, "ID": 27107, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 471.0, "ContributionID": 712305, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5763611+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712307", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27107, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 426.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 426.0, "ID": 27107, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 475.0, "ContributionID": 712307, "EditedText": "FOR Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)AGAINST Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)(LD)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)

AGAINST

Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)
(LD)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5763611+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712311", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27107, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 426.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 426.0, "ID": 27107, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 481.0, "ContributionID": 712311, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5763611+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712315", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27107, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 426.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 426.0, "ID": 27107, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 488.0, "ContributionID": 712315, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5763611+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C712317", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27107, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 426.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 426.0, "ID": 27107, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 490.0, "ContributionID": 712317, "EditedText": "The seventh question is, that motion S1M-307, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, on the approval of the draft Scotland Act 1998 (Transitory and Transitional Provisions) (Appropriations) Amendment Order 1999, be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "The seventh question is, that motion S1M-307, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, on the approval of the draft Scotland Act 1998 (Transitory and Transitional Provisions) (Appropriations) Amendment Order 1999, be agreed to.

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" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5763611+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C712320", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tobacco Sales", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27108, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 494.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 494.0, "ID": 27108, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ms Patricia Ferguson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 495.0, "ContributionID": 712320, "EditedText": "We now move on to members' business. I ask members who are leaving the chamber to do so quietly. The final item of business is a debate on motion S1M-250, in the name of Ms Irene Oldfather, on the subject of tobacco sales to under-age children. The debate will conclude, without any question being put, after 30 minutes. Members who wish to speak in the debate should press their request to speak buttons now.", "EditedTextHTML": "We now move on to members' business. I ask members who are leaving the chamber to do so quietly.

The final item of business is a debate on motion S1M-250, in the name of Ms Irene Oldfather, on the subject of tobacco sales to under-age children. The debate will conclude, without any question being put, after 30 minutes. Members who wish to speak in the debate should press their request to speak buttons now.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712321", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tobacco Sales", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27108, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 494.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 494.0, "ID": 27108, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 497.0, "ContributionID": 712321, "EditedText": "Motion debated,", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion debated,

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1782E69P279C712323", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tobacco Sales", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27108, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 494.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 494.0, "ID": 27108, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Oldfather, Irene", "ID": 1782, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Cunninghame South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Irene Oldfather", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Irene Oldfather (Cunninghame South) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 500.0, "ContributionID": 712323, "EditedText": "I would like to thank members from all parties in the Parliament who have supported this motion, thereby allowing tonight's debate to take place. I would like to address two issues: why do we have to act and how can we act? There is a clear answer to the first question. Within the next hour, someone, somewhere in Scotland will die from smoking. Tobacco is addictive. It is a drug and it kills, yet tonight children the length and breadth of Scotland can purchase that drug and the people who sell it to them—people who put private profit before children's health—can do so with impunity. Unfortunately, tobacco is a drug that, for whatever reason, is attractive to young people— 90 per cent of smokers will have started to smoke before the age of 18. Indeed, figures suggest that a high proportion of smokers will have started before the age of 15—at least one year before the age at which they can legally purchase cigarettes. That is why it is crucial that we look carefully at how we can stop children smoking in their early teens. Education has a part to play. The Scottish Executive is committed to ensuring that young people are a target group in its healthy living agenda, but a significant part of the solution would be to reduce the supply of tobacco to the young. A recent survey by North Ayrshire trading standards officers discovered that cigarettes were sold to an under-age child in 13 out of 13 shops. Smoking prevention groups confirm that by estimating that 83 per cent of under-age smokers buy cigarettes from shops. Very few retailers are prosecuted. In 1996-97, there were no recorded prosecutions, convictions or fines for sales of tobacco to under-age children in Scotland. When action has been taken, offenders are treated very leniently. That says something about how society views tobacco sales to children. We owe it to our young people to make tobacco sales to children socially unacceptable—a taboo in the same way that drinking and driving has become a taboo. Phil Gallie's motion S1M-219, which was debated last week, offered a way forward for many honest shopkeepers who face real difficulties trying to judge the age of a young person. However, steps are also needed to deal with shopkeepers who are prepared to sell cigarettes to under-age children. I am aware that one of the major stumbling blocks to better enforcement has been the problem of child witnesses. For entirely valid reasons, the Crown discourages prosecutions based on test purchases involving children. Unfortunately, the result is that children continue to be exploited by cigarette companies, because a culture of non-prosecution exists in Scotland that is at odds with experience in the rest of the United Kingdom. A possible solution would be to take statements from those involved, similar to the section 9 statements used in England. That would ensure that the accused had a chance to review any statement prior to the hearing and allow questions to be written to overcome any concerns that may arise from the European convention on human rights. I am aware that many of my colleagues favour that form of action. The motion deals with another possible solution—negative licensing. Negative licensing would lead to a retailer who repeatedly sells tobacco to young people losing the right to sell cigarettes or, depending on the scheme, any other age-restricted product. The system would be established under the jurisdiction of local licensing boards, effectively putting sales of tobacco to under-age children on the same footing as sales of alcohol to that age group. That would act as a deterrent, hitting retailers where it hurts—in their pockets. It would also act as a preventive measure, gradually restricting the supply of cigarettes to young people. Negative licensing is just one of many possible solutions, but it is one that I believe has significant advantages. We must ask ourselves whether there is a will to act. Forty years ago, young people in Scotland were the product of a generation for which it was fashionable to smoke. Now that we know the facts, we cannot turn a blind eye. The bottom line is that we have a responsibility and a duty to protect our children. Local authorities are calling for this Parliament to support them by acting now. I hope that this evening's debate will mark the beginning of that process. Let us send a message to all Scotland that the Parliament is listening and is not afraid to act to protect our young people. I look forward to hearing colleagues' and the minister's views on the issue.", "EditedTextHTML": "I would like to thank members from all parties in the Parliament who have supported this motion, thereby allowing tonight's debate to take place.

I would like to address two issues: why do we have to act and how can we act? There is a clear answer to the first question. Within the next hour, someone, somewhere in Scotland will die from smoking. Tobacco is addictive. It is a drug and it kills, yet tonight children the length and breadth of Scotland can purchase that drug and the people who sell it to them—people who put private profit before children's health—can do so with impunity.

Unfortunately, tobacco is a drug that, for whatever reason, is attractive to young people— 90 per cent of smokers will have started to smoke before the age of 18. Indeed, figures suggest that a high proportion of smokers will have started before the age of 15—at least one year before the age at which they can legally purchase cigarettes. That is why it is crucial that we look carefully at how we can stop children smoking in their early teens.

Education has a part to play. The Scottish Executive is committed to ensuring that young people are a target group in its healthy living agenda, but a significant part of the solution would be to reduce the supply of tobacco to the young.

A recent survey by North Ayrshire trading standards officers discovered that cigarettes were sold to an under-age child in 13 out of 13 shops.

Smoking prevention groups confirm that by estimating that 83 per cent of under-age smokers buy cigarettes from shops.

Very few retailers are prosecuted. In 1996-97, there were no recorded prosecutions, convictions or fines for sales of tobacco to under-age children in Scotland. When action has been taken, offenders are treated very leniently. That says something about how society views tobacco sales to children. We owe it to our young people to make tobacco sales to children socially unacceptable—a taboo in the same way that drinking and driving has become a taboo.

Phil Gallie's motion S1M-219, which was debated last week, offered a way forward for many honest shopkeepers who face real difficulties trying to judge the age of a young person. However, steps are also needed to deal with shopkeepers who are prepared to sell cigarettes to under-age children.

I am aware that one of the major stumbling blocks to better enforcement has been the problem of child witnesses. For entirely valid reasons, the Crown discourages prosecutions based on test purchases involving children. Unfortunately, the result is that children continue to be exploited by cigarette companies, because a culture of non-prosecution exists in Scotland that is at odds with experience in the rest of the United Kingdom.

A possible solution would be to take statements from those involved, similar to the section 9 statements used in England. That would ensure that the accused had a chance to review any statement prior to the hearing and allow questions to be written to overcome any concerns that may arise from the European convention on human rights. I am aware that many of my colleagues favour that form of action.

The motion deals with another possible solution—negative licensing. Negative licensing would lead to a retailer who repeatedly sells tobacco to young people losing the right to sell cigarettes or, depending on the scheme, any other age-restricted product. The system would be established under the jurisdiction of local licensing boards, effectively putting sales of tobacco to under-age children on the same footing as sales of alcohol to that age group. That would act as a deterrent, hitting retailers where it hurts—in their pockets. It would also act as a preventive measure, gradually restricting the supply of cigarettes to young people. Negative licensing is just one of many possible solutions, but it is one that I believe has significant advantages.

We must ask ourselves whether there is a will to act. Forty years ago, young people in Scotland were the product of a generation for which it was

fashionable to smoke. Now that we know the facts, we cannot turn a blind eye. The bottom line is that we have a responsibility and a duty to protect our children. Local authorities are calling for this Parliament to support them by acting now. I hope that this evening's debate will mark the beginning of that process. Let us send a message to all Scotland that the Parliament is listening and is not afraid to act to protect our young people. I look forward to hearing colleagues' and the minister's views on the issue.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2044E178P334C712326", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tobacco Sales", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27108, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 494.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 494.0, "ID": 27108, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jenkins, Ian", "ID": 2044, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ian Jenkins", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ian Jenkins (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 509.0, "ContributionID": 712326, "EditedText": "We are all in reminiscent mood. I remember the first time I smoked. It was in a big rhododendron bush in the grounds of a hotel on the island of Bute. I smoked two cigarettes and was lucky to survive, because about 10 minutes later they caused me to seize up, nearly killing me. I never smoked again. My wife's experience was quite different. She started smoking when her mum sent her out to buy cigarettes. She used to buy 10 Craven A and a packet of Polo mints, because it was said to be smooth on the throat. She then moved on to Senior Service, because she liked sailors. Later she moved on to Capstan full strength—another naval connection—because she wanted to be one of the lads. Peer-group pressure can be a most powerful influence. It was terrible when all my pals smoked and I did not. Talking to teenagers about the long- term dangers of smoking is not the answer. We must make smoking uncool, so that teenagers look down on others who smoke. Teenagers must realise that smoking is dirty and unpleasant. As teenagers we may have thought that smoking was fun, but as adults we know what smoking can do to us. Smoking cannot go unchallenged. It will be difficult to stop teenagers smoking, but what we are talking about will make it easier. It is terribly upsetting when we see that under-age smoking is on the increase—as a teacher, I thought that it was decreasing. It is terrible to find out that more girls are smoking than boys and that 14 per cent of children aged between 12 and 15 are regular smokers. People who start smoking young are three times more likely to get cancer than someone who starts a bit later. As Irene Oldfather suggests, there would be a major benefit in clamping down on the sale of tobacco products. It is difficult to see how the partnership can achieve targets for a healthier Scotland without doing something to cut off the supply to youngsters. Ben Wallace mentioned that there is a fine of £2,500 for selling tobacco to under-age children, but people tend to be fined only about £250. That sends out the wrong messages. A recent survey showed that, in the Borders, 100 per cent of traders had sold tobacco to under-age children. I can hardly believe that, as I know some of the shopkeepers there. I assume that they did not monitor the right ones. We must support trading standards officers who are trying to enforce the regulations and we must have more prosecutions if the evidence justifies them. The direct penalties must be more effective and the threat of negative licensing should be a real possibility. I understand that, when a similar scheme was used in Illinois a decade ago, the number of outlets selling tobacco illegally was cut by 65 per cent to only 5 per cent. I support the motion wholeheartedly.", "EditedTextHTML": "We are all in reminiscent mood. I remember the first time I smoked. It was in a big rhododendron bush in the grounds of a hotel on the island of Bute. I smoked two cigarettes and was lucky to survive, because about 10 minutes later they caused me to seize up, nearly killing me. I never smoked again.

My wife's experience was quite different. She started smoking when her mum sent her out to buy cigarettes. She used to buy 10 Craven A and a packet of Polo mints, because it was said to be

smooth on the throat. She then moved on to Senior Service, because she liked sailors. Later she moved on to Capstan full strength—another naval connection—because she wanted to be one of the lads.

Peer-group pressure can be a most powerful influence. It was terrible when all my pals smoked and I did not. Talking to teenagers about the long- term dangers of smoking is not the answer. We must make smoking uncool, so that teenagers look down on others who smoke. Teenagers must realise that smoking is dirty and unpleasant.

As teenagers we may have thought that smoking was fun, but as adults we know what smoking can do to us. Smoking cannot go unchallenged. It will be difficult to stop teenagers smoking, but what we are talking about will make it easier. It is terribly upsetting when we see that under-age smoking is on the increase—as a teacher, I thought that it was decreasing. It is terrible to find out that more girls are smoking than boys and that 14 per cent of children aged between 12 and 15 are regular smokers. People who start smoking young are three times more likely to get cancer than someone who starts a bit later.

As Irene Oldfather suggests, there would be a major benefit in clamping down on the sale of tobacco products. It is difficult to see how the partnership can achieve targets for a healthier Scotland without doing something to cut off the supply to youngsters.

Ben Wallace mentioned that there is a fine of £2,500 for selling tobacco to under-age children, but people tend to be fined only about £250. That sends out the wrong messages. A recent survey showed that, in the Borders, 100 per cent of traders had sold tobacco to under-age children. I can hardly believe that, as I know some of the shopkeepers there. I assume that they did not monitor the right ones.

We must support trading standards officers who are trying to enforce the regulations and we must have more prosecutions if the evidence justifies them. The direct penalties must be more effective and the threat of negative licensing should be a real possibility. I understand that, when a similar scheme was used in Illinois a decade ago, the number of outlets selling tobacco illegally was cut by 65 per cent to only 5 per cent.

I support the motion wholeheartedly.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712334", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tobacco Sales", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27108, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 494.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 494.0, "ID": 27108, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 529.0, "ContributionID": 712334, "EditedText": "Meeting closed at 18:16.", "EditedTextHTML": "Meeting closed at 18:16.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2110E214P424C712330", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tobacco Sales", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27108, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 494.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 494.0, "ID": 27108, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gibson, Kenneth", "ID": 2110, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenneth Gibson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Kenneth Gibson (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 519.0, "ContributionID": 712330, "EditedText": "Like all other members who have spoken, I congratulate Irene Oldfather on introducing this motion. It is important that the Scottish Parliament's views are heard on this issue. Unlike other members who have spoken today, I have never smoked a cigarette and neither have my parents. Part of the reason for my family's non- consumption of tobacco may be that my paternal grandfather died of lung cancer at the age of 51 and my maternal grandfather died of emphysema at the age of 41. We should consider the type of people who, increasingly, are smoking. In the constituency where I stood in the election—Glasgow Pollok— lung cancer levels are 85 per cent higher than the Scottish average. That constituency has the second highest level of poverty in Scotland. It is clear to anybody who examines the figures that the socially excluded are suffering most at the hands of the tobacco barons. For whatever reason, they are consuming cigarettes more and more. Perhaps because of the stress of daily life, they are finding it harder to give up. Two out of three smokers want to stop smoking. There is concern about the increase in the number of young people who smoke. In the past 10 years, the number of adolescent girls in Scotland who smoke has doubled. I have three children and I have great concerns that, at some point in the future, my daughter will be hiding cigarettes in her bedroom. I hope that that does not come to pass. Every year in Scotland, 14,000 people die because of tobacco use and many lives are ruined. This is not just about people who die of lung cancer, heart disease or stroke—it is about people who lose legs through gangrene. We must take cognisance of that and of the other effects of smoking, which are not so widely publicised. I welcome Irene Oldfather's initiative. As Hugh Henry said so eloquently, she has not just reiterated what the problems are; she has given us solutions. I hope that the Executive takes this on board and addresses the topic positively.", "EditedTextHTML": "Like all other members who have spoken, I congratulate Irene Oldfather on introducing this motion. It is important that the Scottish Parliament's views are heard on this issue.

Unlike other members who have spoken today, I have never smoked a cigarette and neither have my parents. Part of the reason for my family's non- consumption of tobacco may be that my paternal grandfather died of lung cancer at the age of 51 and my maternal grandfather died of emphysema at the age of 41.

We should consider the type of people who, increasingly, are smoking. In the constituency where I stood in the election—Glasgow Pollok— lung cancer levels are 85 per cent higher than the Scottish average. That constituency has the second highest level of poverty in Scotland. It is clear to anybody who examines the figures that the socially excluded are suffering most at the

hands of the tobacco barons. For whatever reason, they are consuming cigarettes more and more. Perhaps because of the stress of daily life, they are finding it harder to give up.

Two out of three smokers want to stop smoking. There is concern about the increase in the number of young people who smoke. In the past 10 years, the number of adolescent girls in Scotland who smoke has doubled. I have three children and I have great concerns that, at some point in the future, my daughter will be hiding cigarettes in her bedroom. I hope that that does not come to pass.

Every year in Scotland, 14,000 people die because of tobacco use and many lives are ruined. This is not just about people who die of lung cancer, heart disease or stroke—it is about people who lose legs through gangrene. We must take cognisance of that and of the other effects of smoking, which are not so widely publicised.

I welcome Irene Oldfather's initiative. As Hugh Henry said so eloquently, she has not just reiterated what the problems are; she has given us solutions. I hope that the Executive takes this on board and addresses the topic positively.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:17:36.376716+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1783E59P270C712177", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Baillie, Jackie", "ID": 1783, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumbarton" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Jackie Baillie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Jackie Baillie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 204.0, "ContributionID": 712177, "EditedText": "I repeat: ours is the most comprehensive framework of targets that has ever been produced in Scotland to tackle poverty. It has range, focus and clarity. It provides a set of challenging and measurable targets. It drew directly—this is at the crux of the SNP's argument—from the valuable work done by the evaluation framework action team. Virtually all the indicators that the team suggested are incorporated. If Fiona Hyslop had bothered to read the technical document, she would see it all there. Interruption.", "EditedTextHTML": "I repeat: ours is the most comprehensive framework of targets that has ever been produced in Scotland to tackle poverty. It has range, focus and clarity. It provides a set of challenging and measurable targets. It drew directly—this is at the crux of the SNP's argument—from the valuable work done by the evaluation framework action team. Virtually all the indicators that the team suggested are incorporated. If Fiona Hyslop had bothered to read the technical document, she would see it all there.

[Interruption.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:13:41.2269066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1783E59P270C712179", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Baillie, Jackie", "ID": 1783, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumbarton" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Jackie Baillie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Jackie Baillie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 208.0, "ContributionID": 712179, "EditedText": "Thank you.The action team produced a set of static measures. Our targets are about action, movement and change—change for the better. Fiona Hyslop said that the housing targets that we had set were easy to deliver. Is ending rough sleeping easy? Is reducing the number of families in temporary accommodation who have children easy? Clearly, it is not. The complaints of the SNP ring hollow, but they are consistent with its record of opposing whatever the Government partnership proposes in this Parliament. There comes a time when the new Executive must say, \"This is what we stand for and this is what we will achieve. No more revisions and no more delay—the people of Scotland want action.\" In the spring, the Executive will publish its action plan, in which it will set out how we will deliver our objectives for social justice and defeating child poverty in Scotland. We will set out our programmes alongside those of other departments and agencies. That will show how actions will come together to achieve common aims. The first annual Scottish social justice report will follow. That report will allow the Executive to measure its successes and to face up to any failures. We will monitor progress every year to see whether we are living up to our aspirations, because the people of Scotland deserve nothing less. Those who demanded change and social justice at the start of this century were not deterred by the non-believers and the doubters—neither will we be. They fought long and hard to achieve their goals and so, if necessary, will we. Delivery of social justice is not a short-term fix; it is the priority of the partnership between the Liberal Democrats and Labour. We have the opportunity to deliver a better future for all our children, all our families and all our neighbourhoods. We have the opportunity to deliver a better future for Scotland— a Scotland where everybody matters.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you.

The action team produced a set of static measures. Our targets are about action, movement and change—change for the better. Fiona Hyslop said that the housing targets that we had set were easy to deliver. Is ending rough sleeping easy? Is reducing the number of families in temporary accommodation who have children easy? Clearly, it is not. The complaints of the SNP ring hollow, but they are consistent with its record of opposing whatever the Government partnership proposes in this Parliament.

There comes a time when the new Executive must say, \"This is what we stand for and this is what we will achieve. No more revisions and no more delay—the people of Scotland want action.\" In the spring, the Executive will publish its action plan, in which it will set out how we will deliver our objectives for social justice and defeating child poverty in Scotland. We will set out our programmes alongside those of other departments and agencies. That will show how actions will come together to achieve common aims. The first annual Scottish social justice report will follow. That report will allow the Executive to measure its successes and to face up to any failures. We will monitor progress every year to see whether we are living up to our aspirations, because the people of Scotland deserve nothing less.

Those who demanded change and social justice at the start of this century were not deterred by the non-believers and the doubters—neither will we be. They fought long and hard to achieve their goals and so, if necessary, will we. Delivery of social justice is not a short-term fix; it is the priority of the partnership between the Liberal Democrats and Labour. We have the opportunity to deliver a better future for all our children, all our families and all our neighbourhoods. We have the opportunity to deliver a better future for Scotland— a Scotland where everybody matters.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:13:41.2269066+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712082", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Wednesday 24 November 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 27102, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 27102, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 2.0, "ContributionID": 712082, "EditedText": "THE PRESIDING OFFICER opened the meeting at 14:31", "EditedTextHTML": "[THE PRESIDING OFFICER opened the meeting at 14:31]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C712088", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 15.0, "ContributionID": 712088, "EditedText": "The first item of business is a debate on motion S1M-314, in the name of Ms Wendy Alexander, on social justice.", "EditedTextHTML": "The first item of business is a debate on motion S1M-314, in the name of Ms Wendy Alexander, on social justice.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C712089", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Communities (Ms Wendy Alexander): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 18.0, "ContributionID": 712089, "EditedText": "Today we debate the document \"Social Justice …a Scotland where everyone matters\", which was published with a parliamentary question more than 48 hours ago to give everyone the chance to read and prepare for the debate. We were not going to sneak it in by a statement. It is sad that some people's horizons appear to extend no further than the next headline. This document reaches out to all those Scots who, in May, voted for a fairer nation. This is quite simply the most comprehensive anti-poverty programme ever in Scotland. It is about measuring what matters: abolishing child poverty, restoring full employment and giving security in old age. As our nation has been worn down by 20 years of broken promises, I want to address the cynics, the faint hearts and sceptical Scot himself. The first challenge posed this week by sceptical Scot was that this document is nothing more than motherhood and apple pie. Where is the beef?", "EditedTextHTML": "Today we debate the document \"Social Justice …a Scotland where everyone matters\", which was published with a parliamentary question more than 48 hours ago to give everyone the chance to read and prepare for the debate. We were not going to sneak it in by a statement. It is sad that some people's horizons appear to extend no further than the next headline.

This document reaches out to all those Scots who, in May, voted for a fairer nation. This is quite simply the most comprehensive anti-poverty programme ever in Scotland. It is about measuring what matters: abolishing child poverty, restoring full employment and giving security in old age. As our nation has been worn down by 20 years of broken promises, I want to address the cynics, the faint hearts and sceptical Scot himself. The first challenge posed this week by sceptical Scot was that this document is nothing more than motherhood and apple pie. Where is the beef?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C712090", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 20.0, "ContributionID": 712090, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C712091", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 22.0, "ContributionID": 712091, "EditedText": "I am not going to take interventions. If Mr Neil lets me finish my opening remarks, he will be able to speak in the ensuing debate. What does ending child poverty mean precisely? It means fewer Scottish children in households with absolute low incomes, which is about £217 for families with three children. Furthermore, it means fewer Scottish children with persistently low incomes, in households with relatively low incomes or in homes where no one works. However, ending child poverty is about more than income. We need to raise the number who achieve reading, writing and maths competence in P2 and P7. All children must have quality pre-school learning. There must be fewer low birth- weight babies and fewer homeless children in temporary accommodation. Who does the Opposition think it is kidding when it calls the document too vague?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am not going to take interventions. If Mr Neil lets me finish my opening remarks, he will be able to speak in the ensuing debate.

What does ending child poverty mean precisely? It means fewer Scottish children in households with absolute low incomes, which is about £217 for families with three children. Furthermore, it means fewer Scottish children with persistently low incomes, in households with relatively low incomes or in homes where no one works.

However, ending child poverty is about more than income. We need to raise the number who achieve reading, writing and maths competence in P2 and P7. All children must have quality pre-school learning. There must be fewer low birth- weight babies and fewer homeless children in temporary accommodation.

Who does the Opposition think it is kidding when it calls the document too vague?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1865E219P509C712092", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "White, Sandra", "ID": 1865, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sandra White", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Sandra White (Glasgow) (SNP) rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 24.0, "ContributionID": 712092, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C712093", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 26.0, "ContributionID": 712093, "EditedText": "This is the most tightly drawn contract ever between the governed and the government in Scotland, with its commitments on unemployment, income, education, early years, health and housing. Sceptical Scot's second charge is that the document is too visionary. The charge is that we cannot set long-term objectives beyond one session, as we do not know how the world will change. We make no apology for having vision.", "EditedTextHTML": "This is the most tightly drawn contract ever between the governed and the government in Scotland, with its commitments on unemployment, income, education, early years, health and housing.

Sceptical Scot's second charge is that the document is too visionary. The charge is that we cannot set long-term objectives beyond one session, as we do not know how the world will change.

We make no apology for having vision.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C712101", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 42.0, "ContributionID": 712101, "EditedText": "Order.", "EditedTextHTML": "Order.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2118E157P454C712102", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Quinan, Mr Lloyd", "ID": 2118, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lloyd Quinan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Quinan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 44.0, "ContributionID": 712102, "EditedText": "Is it not essential that the minister addresses the debate and the motion, not an article in The Herald?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is it not essential that the minister addresses the debate and the motion, not an article in The Herald?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C712095", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 30.0, "ContributionID": 712095, "EditedText": "Nobody in this chamber was elected to keep their eyes glued on the ground. With 50 days to go to the new millennium, let us remember that, 100 years ago, radicals of this nation dreamed of free health care, public housing, the right to strike and the right for women to vote. Those radicals were called utopian progressives, socialists, and dreamers. We should be no less ambitious. If the nation contributes 40 per cent of its income in taxes to the state, does anyone here think that that is not enough to wipe out child poverty in 20 years? I am proud that our Prime Minister's fourth child will grow up in the years in which its parents' generation is determined to end child poverty. The third charge from sceptical Scot is that 20 years is too slow—what about here and now? I say to all those self-appointed and well-meaning guardians of the flame of Scottish socialism who fear they might not be here in 20 years—the Bob Holmans, Jimmy Reids, Alasdair Grays and the thousands like them who feel that they have grown tired wanting—that the battle has already been joined. The previous two budgets alone were enough to take 60,000 Scottish children—one in five—out of poverty. That is before the new deal cuts youth unemployment by 60 per cent over two years and long-term unemployment by 40 per cent. Finally, we have the sceptical Scot who asks where the money is coming from. Let me spell out that, by the end of this session, we will be spending £6 billion more on families and children each year across the UK. That works out at more than £5 per day for every child in poverty in Scotland. That is just the contribution of tax and benefits; if we add to that what we are spending in Scotland—another £2—it can be seen that there will be £7 extra per day for every child in poverty. That new wave of spending is just beginning to have an impact on the ground, so it is hardly surprising that people feel that there has not been enough progress yet. This session is only one eighth of the way through its life, and only one sixth of the extra money that we have committed has been spent, but its impact will grow and grow. Having dealt with sceptical Scot, I turn to the Opposition amendments. On Monday, Bill Aitken of the Tories said that this report was motherhood and apple pie and that no one could disagree with it. Let that sink in. It was said by a Tory. The Tories were in power from 1979 to 1997, during which time the number of people living in relative poverty in Scotland doubled, and the number of children living in poverty and the number of children in homes where no one was in work more than doubled. The Tories say that no one could disagree. Bill Aitken, David McLetchie and Lord James Douglas- Hamilton represent a party that gloried in the widening of divisions and in the myth that the strong could prosper only by trampling on the weak. We do not quarrel with their commitment to enterprise, but we dispute their dogmatic determination that it must be bought at the price of social justice. The Tories denied social justice for 20 years. It is a rather hegemonic victory for the third way in the battle of ideas if they are now committed to social justice, but I wonder whether William Hague knows. The SNP is an altogether more chameleon-like species. Yesterday, Fiona Hyslop wrote five main criticisms in The Herald. The first was that we are tracking the economic cycle rather than actual poverty. That is nonsense. If low absolute, persistent and relative levels of poverty are not measures of poverty, I do not know what are. The second was that the use of UK measures meant that \"a truly Scottish perspective has been lost.\"Low absolute, relative and persistent poverty is the same in Newcastle as it is in Nitshill, and the same in Liverpool as it is in Lesmahagow.", "EditedTextHTML": "Nobody in this chamber was elected to keep their eyes glued on the ground. With 50 days to go to the new millennium, let us remember that, 100 years ago, radicals of this nation dreamed of free health care, public housing, the right to strike and the right for women to vote. Those radicals were called utopian progressives, socialists, and dreamers. We should be no less ambitious. If the nation contributes 40 per cent of its income in taxes to the state, does anyone here think that that is not enough to wipe out child poverty in 20 years? I am proud that our Prime Minister's fourth child will grow up in the years in which its parents' generation is determined to end child poverty.

The third charge from sceptical Scot is that 20 years is too slow—what about here and now? I say to all those self-appointed and well-meaning guardians of the flame of Scottish socialism who fear they might not be here in 20 years—the Bob Holmans, Jimmy Reids, Alasdair Grays and the thousands like them who feel that they have grown tired wanting—that the battle has already been joined. The previous two budgets alone were enough to take 60,000 Scottish children—one in five—out of poverty. That is before the new deal cuts youth unemployment by 60 per cent over two years and long-term unemployment by 40 per cent.

Finally, we have the sceptical Scot who asks where the money is coming from. Let me spell out that, by the end of this session, we will be spending £6 billion more on families and children each year across the UK. That works out at more than £5 per day for every child in poverty in Scotland. That is just the contribution of tax and benefits; if we add to that what we are spending in Scotland—another £2—it can be seen that there will be £7 extra per day for every child in poverty. That new wave of spending is just beginning to have an impact on the ground, so it is hardly surprising that people feel that there has not been enough progress yet. This session is only one eighth of the way through its life, and only one sixth of the extra money that we have committed has been spent, but its impact will grow and grow.

Having dealt with sceptical Scot, I turn to the Opposition amendments. On Monday, Bill Aitken

of the Tories said that this report was motherhood and apple pie and that no one could disagree with it. Let that sink in. It was said by a Tory. The Tories were in power from 1979 to 1997, during which time the number of people living in relative poverty in Scotland doubled, and the number of children living in poverty and the number of children in homes where no one was in work more than doubled.

The Tories say that no one could disagree. Bill Aitken, David McLetchie and Lord James Douglas- Hamilton represent a party that gloried in the widening of divisions and in the myth that the strong could prosper only by trampling on the weak. We do not quarrel with their commitment to enterprise, but we dispute their dogmatic determination that it must be bought at the price of social justice. The Tories denied social justice for 20 years. It is a rather hegemonic victory for the third way in the battle of ideas if they are now committed to social justice, but I wonder whether William Hague knows.

The SNP is an altogether more chameleon-like species. Yesterday, Fiona Hyslop wrote five main criticisms in The Herald. The first was that we are tracking the economic cycle rather than actual poverty. That is nonsense. If low absolute, persistent and relative levels of poverty are not measures of poverty, I do not know what are.

The second was that the use of UK measures meant that

\"a truly Scottish perspective has been lost.\"

Low absolute, relative and persistent poverty is the same in Newcastle as it is in Nitshill, and the same in Liverpool as it is in Lesmahagow.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C712099", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 38.0, "ContributionID": 712099, "EditedText": "Thirdly, Fiona Hyslop said that the 20-year child poverty target is not broken down in a way that makes sense to parents. That is nonsense. To take one measure, 50 per cent of average income is £2,223 in today's prices for a family with two children.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thirdly, Fiona Hyslop said that the 20-year child poverty target is not broken down in a way that makes sense to parents. That is nonsense. To take one measure, 50 per cent of average income is £2,223 in today's prices for a family with two children.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1865E219P509C712105", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "White, Sandra", "ID": 1865, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sandra White", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms White: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 50.0, "ContributionID": 712105, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C712106", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 52.0, "ContributionID": 712106, "EditedText": "That is the crux of this debate. I ask SNP members to cast their minds back six months to April, those last days of the countdown to this Parliament. Where is the economic strategy? Where are the numbers? They should face the music. Eventually we got out the calculator and came up with the black hole. That black hole was £1.1 billion—I apologise to Andrew Wilson, it was £1.3 billion. Let us be generous and assume that it was only £1 billion: £1,000 million. How is that black hole to be filled? The 36 per cent rise in child benefit—gone. Child care tax credit—gone. Allowance of £100 a week, to help with child care—gone. The working families tax credit—gone.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is the crux of this debate. I ask SNP members to cast their minds back six months to April, those last days of the countdown to this Parliament. Where is the economic strategy? Where are the numbers? They should face the music. Eventually we got out the calculator and came up with the black hole. That black hole was £1.1 billion—I apologise to Andrew Wilson, it was £1.3 billion. Let us be generous and assume that it was only £1 billion: £1,000 million.

How is that black hole to be filled? The 36 per cent rise in child benefit—gone. Child care tax credit—gone. Allowance of £100 a week, to help with child care—gone. The working families tax credit—gone.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1814E135P516C712107", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Fabiani, Linda", "ID": 1814, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Linda Fabiani", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Linda Fabiani (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 54.0, "ContributionID": 712107, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C712111", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 62.0, "ContributionID": 712111, "EditedText": "That is the price of the SNP. If SNP members find that hard, they could look to the Scottish budget. No new futures fund. The university for industry—gone. An extra 42,000 university and college places—gone. The national child care strategy—gone. Early intervention— gone. So it goes on. Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP)rose—", "EditedTextHTML": "That is the price of the SNP. If SNP members find that hard, they could look to the Scottish budget. No new futures fund. The university for industry—gone. An extra 42,000 university and college places—gone. The national

child care strategy—gone. Early intervention— gone. So it goes on.

Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP)

rose—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C712112", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 64.0, "ContributionID": 712112, "EditedText": "The sums have never added up. Perhaps the SNP will tell us today how much it will cost, once that hole has been filled, to establish a separate social security system, and whether there would be a welfare reform strategy. One of the reasons the SNP is a party going nowhere is that what Scotland wants is leadership from this Parliament, not whining from the wings. The SNP is bellyaching and is not building a better Scotland. That is the task of this Parliament. I turn now to Glasgow, as there was a request to speak on that city today. Glasgow, the city where I was born and where I spent much of my adult life, is in the spotlight today. The Daily Record says today that it is time to stop the rot. Indeed it is. In true Glasgow style, let us tell it like it is. I invite other members to comment on this.", "EditedTextHTML": "The sums have never added up. Perhaps the SNP will tell us today how much it will cost, once that hole has been filled, to establish a separate social security system, and whether there would be a welfare reform strategy. One of the reasons the SNP is a party going nowhere is that what Scotland wants is leadership from this Parliament, not whining from the wings. The SNP is bellyaching and is not building a better Scotland. That is the task of this Parliament.

I turn now to Glasgow, as there was a request to speak on that city today. Glasgow, the city where I was born and where I spent much of my adult life, is in the spotlight today. The Daily Record says today that it is time to stop the rot. Indeed it is. In true Glasgow style, let us tell it like it is. I invite other members to comment on this.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6232703+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C712114", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 68.0, "ContributionID": 712114, "EditedText": "Decisions such as last week's on homelessness—", "EditedTextHTML": "Decisions such as last week's on homelessness—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6232703+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1876E194P490C712115", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Marwick, Tricia", "ID": 1876, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tricia Marwick", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tricia Marwick rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 70.0, "ContributionID": 712115, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6232703+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C712122", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 84.0, "ContributionID": 712122, "EditedText": "On a point of order.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6232703+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C712123", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 86.0, "ContributionID": 712123, "EditedText": "I hope the minister is winding up, but please let her finish.", "EditedTextHTML": "I hope the minister is winding up, but please let her finish.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6232703+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2234E7P20C712128", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Aitken, Bill", "ID": 2234, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bill Aitken", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bill Aitken (Glasgow) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 98.0, "ContributionID": 712128, "EditedText": "As I watched the events of the weekend, I wondered what would come out on Monday. I wondered whether it would be the statement of the millennium—sadly, it was nothing. The documents contain a welter of words—some not even spelt correctly—which is indicative of the careless attitude and outlook that Wendy Alexander has demonstrated today. Let us be clear about what is before the Parliament: basically, it is a wish list. I have absolutely no doubt as to the minister's sincerity, but what she is putting forward is absolutely meaningless. Let us be blunt about it. I do not wish to introduce management-speak, but, for targets to be achieved, they must be specific, measurable and realistic. Most important, they must have time scales. There is nothing in the documents—", "EditedTextHTML": "As I watched the events of the weekend, I wondered what would come out on Monday. I wondered whether it would be the statement of the millennium—sadly, it was nothing. The documents contain a welter of words—some not even spelt correctly—which is indicative of the careless attitude and outlook that Wendy Alexander has demonstrated today.

Let us be clear about what is before the Parliament: basically, it is a wish list. I have absolutely no doubt as to the minister's sincerity, but what she is putting forward is absolutely meaningless. Let us be blunt about it. I do not wish to introduce management-speak, but, for targets to be achieved, they must be specific, measurable and realistic. Most important, they must have time scales. There is nothing in the documents—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6232703+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2234E7P20C712130", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Aitken, Bill", "ID": 2234, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bill Aitken", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bill Aitken: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 102.0, "ContributionID": 712130, "EditedText": "I do not have time. I have only five minutes. There is nothing in the documents to indicate when the Executive will be able to measure the progress of its proposals, and nothing to indicate how it intends to phase in its improvements. In other words, there is no way in which we can measure the Executive's achievement—or lack of it. What we have is a wish list that is minimalist in many respects. Quite properly, Fiona Hyslop raised the question of why today's debate is so short. However, she has got it slightly wrong: I believe that having a short debate is a tactic, and an obvious one. The Executive does not want a lengthy debate, because it is saying absolutely nothing at any length. The targets are no more than a wish list. There are no proposals for action and no details of funding. Nor do the documents set out in any meaningful way how progress on any of the issues involved can be measured. Wendy Alexander resembles a latter-day Eva Peron. In the words of the musical: \"The best show in town was the crowd . . . She didn't say much but she said it loud.\"", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not have time. I have only five minutes.

There is nothing in the documents to indicate when the Executive will be able to measure the progress of its proposals, and nothing to indicate how it intends to phase in its improvements. In other words, there is no way in which we can measure the Executive's achievement—or lack of it. What we have is a wish list that is minimalist in many respects.

Quite properly, Fiona Hyslop raised the question of why today's debate is so short. However, she has got it slightly wrong: I believe that having a short debate is a tactic, and an obvious one. The Executive does not want a lengthy debate, because it is saying absolutely nothing at any length.

The targets are no more than a wish list. There are no proposals for action and no details of funding. Nor do the documents set out in any meaningful way how progress on any of the issues involved can be measured.

Wendy Alexander resembles a latter-day Eva Peron. In the words of the musical:

\"The best show in town was the crowd . . . She didn't say much but she said it loud.\"

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6232703+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C712136", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Patricia Ferguson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 115.0, "ContributionID": 712136, "EditedText": "A large number of members want to speak in the debate, and we have only a relatively short time. For that reason, I will apply the four- minute rule strictly.", "EditedTextHTML": "A large number of members want to speak in the debate, and we have only a relatively short time. For that reason, I will apply the four- minute rule strictly.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6232703+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1820E139P227C712137", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Curran, Margaret", "ID": 1820, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Baillieston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Curran", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Margaret Curran (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 118.0, "ContributionID": 712137, "EditedText": "I strongly welcome the debate, not only because I am convener of the Social Inclusion, Housing and Voluntary Sector Committee, but because social justice is at the centre of my political philosophy. It is appropriate that it should also be at the foundation of the Government's programme. The strategy shows some appreciation of past failures: we attempted to tackle the born-to-fail generation only to have our efforts ruthlessly and tragically abandoned by the Thatcher disaster. However, the central ethos and values have not been lost. They date further back, to the words of John Ruskin, who said: \"The first duty of a State is to see that every child born therein shall be well housed, clothed, fed and educated\". Even in those early days, we recognised the connections between social ills. We know only too well that action on one front cannot be sustained. Multiple problems require multiple responses. We need to ensure that schools, health services, social work services and the police all work to an inclusion agenda. The entrenched power of professionals must be addressed. The Executive programme is ambitious. I welcome the First Minister's statement that the programme will be the key benchmark against which the Executive will be judged. Some members of the Labour party will be judging Labour members of the partnership on the same basis. The strategy is a fitting one for the first Scottish Parliament. Expectations are high and results must be delivered. Within the field of anti-poverty and social inclusion there has been a decided push in recent years to move away from high aspirations and empty empathy towards clear intervention, whereby outcomes are measured and politicians and agencies are held to account. It is proper that the Executive strategy falls firmly within that approach. To say that it is a betrayal or a stunt is not to understand the debate of the past years. We must deliver. As we have heard, the strategy has been criticised. Labour has been accused of outlining a programme that has warm words, but which has no plans for immediate action and which, essentially, is not Scottish enough. We have heard that before. Too often in the Parliament we hear the single transferable speech, to the extent that we even hear the same sentences in different speeches. The same points are adapted to fit each debate. We hear that much of what the Executive is doing is to be welcomed and that it is moving in the right direction, but that there is not enough funding and that the measures are not Scottish enough. How many times will the SNP—and Keith Raffan—spend Gordon Brown's war chest, whose policies would never have delivered it in the first place? Must we return to the devolution referendum in every debate? The SNP cannot keep claiming that it is determined to make the Parliament work and then at every opportunity point out the Parliament's inadequacies and focus on what the Parliament cannot do. If our strategy is so wrong, the Opposition should come up with more detailed criticisms, particularly in relation to the responsibilities of the Scottish Parliament. I will now deal with the Tories. I could not believe my ears when I heard Annabel Goldie dismiss the programme as not being enough to tackle poverty in the immediate future. Perhaps the Tories should ask themselves why their party has such severe problems in Scotland and why it was wiped out in the most recent British general election. I will take no lessons from the people who cheered Peter Lilley's disgraceful remarks about single parents. Portillo can try to reinvent himself as a compassionate Conservative in Kensington, but that will not wash in Easterhouse. The Tories should not wait for Jeffrey Archer's name to be said before hanging their heads in shame. There is criticism of the programme from another section of the Parliament, the Scottish Socialist party. I think that that is the right name, but to clarify the matter, I will call it Tommy Sheridan's party, as his cult of personality knows no bounds. Tommy has a slogan for every occasion. He will promise the earth and call for spending without worrying about the implications for other budgets. He would spend twice the budget of the national health service to buy back houses for Glasgow City Council's housing department. This fact might force Tommy to rethink his economic strategy, but I have to tell him that money does not grow on trees. Socialists have a responsibility not to mislead people or propose simplistic solutions to profound and deep-seated problems. Rather, we must focus on what can be achieved. In two years, we have moved from the assertion that there is no such thing as society to having a Minister for Communities. Social justice is at the centre of every radical movement in the world. I say to my Government that there is no room for complacency, as back-bench members will hold it to account.", "EditedTextHTML": "I strongly welcome the debate, not only because I am convener of the Social Inclusion, Housing and Voluntary Sector Committee, but because social justice is at the centre of my political philosophy. It is appropriate that it should also be at the foundation of the Government's programme.

The strategy shows some appreciation of past failures: we attempted to tackle the born-to-fail generation only to have our efforts ruthlessly and tragically abandoned by the Thatcher disaster.

However, the central ethos and values have not been lost. They date further back, to the words of John Ruskin, who said:

\"The first duty of a State is to see that every child born therein shall be well housed, clothed, fed and educated\".

Even in those early days, we recognised the connections between social ills. We know only too well that action on one front cannot be sustained. Multiple problems require multiple responses. We need to ensure that schools, health services, social work services and the police all work to an inclusion agenda. The entrenched power of professionals must be addressed.

The Executive programme is ambitious. I welcome the First Minister's statement that the programme will be the key benchmark against which the Executive will be judged. Some members of the Labour party will be judging Labour members of the partnership on the same basis.

The strategy is a fitting one for the first Scottish Parliament. Expectations are high and results must be delivered. Within the field of anti-poverty and social inclusion there has been a decided push in recent years to move away from high aspirations and empty empathy towards clear intervention, whereby outcomes are measured and politicians and agencies are held to account. It is proper that the Executive strategy falls firmly within that approach. To say that it is a betrayal or a stunt is not to understand the debate of the past years. We must deliver.

As we have heard, the strategy has been criticised. Labour has been accused of outlining a programme that has warm words, but which has no plans for immediate action and which, essentially, is not Scottish enough. We have heard that before. Too often in the Parliament we hear the single transferable speech, to the extent that we even hear the same sentences in different speeches. The same points are adapted to fit each debate. We hear that much of what the Executive is doing is to be welcomed and that it is moving in the right direction, but that there is not enough funding and that the measures are not Scottish enough.

How many times will the SNP—and Keith Raffan—spend Gordon Brown's war chest, whose policies would never have delivered it in the first place? Must we return to the devolution referendum in every debate? The SNP cannot keep claiming that it is determined to make the Parliament work and then at every opportunity point out the Parliament's inadequacies and focus on what the Parliament cannot do. If our strategy is so wrong, the Opposition should come up with more detailed criticisms, particularly in relation to the responsibilities of the Scottish Parliament.

I will now deal with the Tories. I could not believe my ears when I heard Annabel Goldie dismiss the programme as not being enough to tackle poverty in the immediate future. Perhaps the Tories should ask themselves why their party has such severe problems in Scotland and why it was wiped out in the most recent British general election.

I will take no lessons from the people who cheered Peter Lilley's disgraceful remarks about single parents. Portillo can try to reinvent himself as a compassionate Conservative in Kensington, but that will not wash in Easterhouse. The Tories should not wait for Jeffrey Archer's name to be said before hanging their heads in shame.

There is criticism of the programme from another section of the Parliament, the Scottish Socialist party. I think that that is the right name, but to clarify the matter, I will call it Tommy Sheridan's party, as his cult of personality knows no bounds. Tommy has a slogan for every occasion. He will promise the earth and call for spending without worrying about the implications for other budgets. He would spend twice the budget of the national health service to buy back houses for Glasgow City Council's housing department. This fact might force Tommy to rethink his economic strategy, but I have to tell him that money does not grow on trees.

Socialists have a responsibility not to mislead people or propose simplistic solutions to profound and deep-seated problems. Rather, we must focus on what can be achieved. In two years, we have moved from the assertion that there is no such thing as society to having a Minister for Communities. Social justice is at the centre of every radical movement in the world. I say to my Government that there is no room for complacency, as back-bench members will hold it to account.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6232703+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C712142", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 130.0, "ContributionID": 712142, "EditedText": "Will Tommy Sheridan give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Tommy Sheridan give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6232703+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C712144", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 134.0, "ContributionID": 712144, "EditedText": "Does Tommy support the Scottish National party position that on pensions we should have jam for all? Does he agree that there should be a flat-rate rise that will benefit Edinburgh pensioners such as Sean Connery, rather than a minimum income guarantee for the 1 million poorest pensioners, which will mean that their incomes will go up to 75 quid and then 78 quid in April? For the first time in 20 years, their incomes will be linked to earnings as well as prices. What is Tommy's position on that?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does Tommy support the Scottish National party position that on pensions we should have jam for all? Does he agree that there should be a flat-rate rise that will benefit Edinburgh pensioners such as Sean Connery, rather than a minimum income guarantee for the 1 million poorest pensioners, which will mean that their incomes will go up to 75 quid and then 78 quid in April? For the first time in 20 years, their incomes will be linked to earnings as well as prices. What is Tommy's position on that?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6232703+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1996E124P211C712148", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAveety, Mr Frank", "ID": 1996, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Shettleston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Local Government", "SpeakerName": "Frank McAveety", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Local Government (Mr Frank McAveety): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 142.0, "ContributionID": 712148, "EditedText": "It never will be.", "EditedTextHTML": "It never will be.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6232703+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1996E124P211C712150", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAveety, Mr Frank", "ID": 1996, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Shettleston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Local Government", "SpeakerName": "Frank McAveety", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McAveety: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 146.0, "ContributionID": 712150, "EditedText": "Perhaps, but it is the same speech—although it is a good speech.", "EditedTextHTML": "Perhaps, but it is the same speech—although it is a good speech.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6232703+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C712151", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 148.0, "ContributionID": 712151, "EditedText": "I am sorry, Presiding Officer—I am trying to sum up, but people keep interrupting me. Will you intervene?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry, Presiding Officer—I am trying to sum up, but people keep interrupting me. Will you intervene?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6232703+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C712167", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 184.0, "ContributionID": 712167, "EditedText": "The minister will not take interventions.", "EditedTextHTML": "The minister will not take interventions.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5607365+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C712178", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 206.0, "ContributionID": 712178, "EditedText": "Members will keep order while this debate continues. Things are getting out of hand and it is impossible for members to speak. Carry on, please, minister.", "EditedTextHTML": "Members will keep order while this debate continues. Things are getting out of hand and it is impossible for members to speak. Carry on, please, minister.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5607365+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C712182", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 215.0, "ContributionID": 712182, "EditedText": "I am coming to that, Mr Fergusson. We are starting the debate slightly later than was programmed because of the number of points of order that were made at the beginning of the previous debate. You have 15 minutes, Mr Wallace.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am coming to that, Mr Fergusson. We are starting the debate slightly later than was programmed because of the number of points of order that were made at the beginning of the previous debate.

You have 15 minutes, Mr Wallace.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5607365+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C712185", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 222.0, "ContributionID": 712185, "EditedText": "The Deputy Minister for Justice, Angus MacKay, attended that convention. There will be further opportunity for consultation. It is important to put on the record that, under Lord Sewel in the previous Administration, there was extensive consultation on the land reform agenda. There has been specific consultation on the white paper and there will be further opportunity for comment when the draft bill is published. I have no doubt that the appropriate committees of the Parliament will also want to go into the draft bill. The Parliament will see the full detail when we publish the draft bill. For now, I want to give members an indication of some of the bill's key points. The white paper reflects the Executive's commitment to a community right to buy and to a responsible right of access. On the issue of the community right to buy, we have listened to both community and landowning interests. Interestingly, community interests thought that the time scale for that legislation was too short and landowning interests thought that it was too long, which persuaded us that we had got the balance right. In the light of comments from community interests—the people who will benefit from the legislation—I accept that, in making the legislation as watertight as possible, we were in danger of excluding cases that the legislation should be there to help. As a result, the legislation will give ministers discretion to decide whether a community body is sufficiently representative of and supported by the local community.Another concern raised with me on visits and in consultation responses was the possibility for community bodies to register an interest in nearby land. Ministers will again have discretion to decide whether a community body has demonstrated a direct community interest in a piece of land, which will make it possible for community bodies to register interest in nearby land. Our general approach is to encourage communities to take time to prepare before land comes on the market, as land ownership is an onerous responsibility. However, we recognise that there may well be circumstances when the idea of community purchase arises only when the opportunity unexpectedly presents itself. Therefore, we will add a procedure for community bodies to apply on an exceptional basis to register interest after land comes on the market. Equally, we have listened to concerns raised by landowning interests.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Deputy Minister for Justice, Angus MacKay, attended that convention. There will be further opportunity for consultation. It is important to put on the record that, under Lord Sewel in the previous Administration, there was extensive consultation on the land reform agenda. There has been specific consultation on the white paper and there will be further opportunity for comment when the draft bill is published. I have no doubt that the appropriate committees of the Parliament will also want to go into the draft bill.

The Parliament will see the full detail when we publish the draft bill. For now, I want to give members an indication of some of the bill's key points. The white paper reflects the Executive's commitment to a community right to buy and to a responsible right of access.

On the issue of the community right to buy, we have listened to both community and landowning interests. Interestingly, community interests thought that the time scale for that legislation was too short and landowning interests thought that it was too long, which persuaded us that we had got the balance right.

In the light of comments from community interests—the people who will benefit from the legislation—I accept that, in making the legislation as watertight as possible, we were in danger of excluding cases that the legislation should be there to help. As a result, the legislation will give ministers discretion to decide whether a community body is sufficiently representative of

and supported by the local community.

Another concern raised with me on visits and in consultation responses was the possibility for community bodies to register an interest in nearby land. Ministers will again have discretion to decide whether a community body has demonstrated a direct community interest in a piece of land, which will make it possible for community bodies to register interest in nearby land.

Our general approach is to encourage communities to take time to prepare before land comes on the market, as land ownership is an onerous responsibility. However, we recognise that there may well be circumstances when the idea of community purchase arises only when the opportunity unexpectedly presents itself. Therefore, we will add a procedure for community bodies to apply on an exceptional basis to register interest after land comes on the market.

Equally, we have listened to concerns raised by landowning interests.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5607365+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C712186", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie (Lothians) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 224.0, "ContributionID": 712186, "EditedText": "How much will that extension lengthen the whole process and disrupt the market in land in Scotland?", "EditedTextHTML": "How much will that extension lengthen the whole process and disrupt the market in land in Scotland?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5607365+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C712187", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 226.0, "ContributionID": 712187, "EditedText": "I did not say that that measure will lead to an extension. As things stand in the proposals in the white paper, the community interest in land has to be registered prior to land going on the market. In exceptional circumstances, when an opportunity unexpectedly presents itself, it will be possible to register an interest after the land comes on the market. Otherwise, the time scales will remain as they are in the proposals.", "EditedTextHTML": "I did not say that that measure will lead to an extension. As things stand in the proposals in the white paper, the community interest in land has to be registered prior to land going on the market. In exceptional circumstances, when an opportunity unexpectedly presents itself, it will be possible to register an interest after the land comes on the market. Otherwise, the time scales will remain as they are in the proposals.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5607365+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C712196", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 245.0, "ContributionID": 712196, "EditedText": "Ten minutes for a speech.", "EditedTextHTML": "Ten minutes for a speech.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5607365+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1863E284P532C712193", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Cunningham, Roseanna", "ID": 1863, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Perth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Roseanna Cunningham", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Roseanna Cunningham: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 239.0, "ContributionID": 712193, "EditedText": "If Mr McLetchie is talking about the current Perth and Kinross Council, he will know that it is the Tories who are involved in that coalition, with Labour, Liberal Democrat and independent members, not with the SNP. Perhaps he needs to speak to his own party. The Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill, at present before the Justice and Home Affairs Committee, will get a fair wind from the SNP, as will the other proposed law reform bills. Equally, the forthcoming land reform bill, when it finally appears, including its provisions for access, will be welcomed and supported, although perhaps not totally uncritically, by the SNP. However, our amendment sums up our position on the central proposals in Mr Wallace's motion: we support them as far as they go, but think that they do not go far enough. The community right to buy, the tightening-up of compulsory purchases and voluntary codes of conduct do not a reform package make. Despite the Conservative party's scaremongering, I think that the bill will fail to achieve real, deep change in the nature of land management, or land ownership. Short of community buy-outs, the only real nod in the direction of community involvement is in the voluntary codes of practice for rural land use and land ownership. In the land reform white paper, there was no mention of community involvement, except in the context of the purchase proposals. Where I do find some scant, suggested reference to community involvement is in the progress reports. By the way, I find those reports very helpful. They are very welcome, and commend that approach to consultation prior to legislation, even if I am not entirely sure that a motion for debate is justified. I notice from the most recent of those progress reports that the code of good practice for rural land ownership will not be published until September 2000, and a draft is currently with the land ownership consultative panel, while the separate—if I may be permitted to use that word— code of good practice on rural land use will eventually emerge at the end of 2000. Whatever appears, it is unlikely to deal with many of the problems facing communities in Scotland. Voluntary codes can be ignored—and are very likely to be ignored—by corporate owners and landowners who are not signed up to organisations such as the Scottish Landowners Federation, of which, we should remember, there are more than a few. If voluntary codes are ignored, what then? The bill will offer community purchase but little else. I remind the Minister for Justice that even that ability to purchase will be triggered only when the estate comes on to the market; that does not deal with the existing abuses. One prominent critic, Andy Wightman, has pointed out that most privately owned land in Scotland has never come up for sale in the past 100 years. Equally, the narrow definition of community that is contained in the proposals means that many deserving communities will not benefit. Despite the rhetoric, the truth is that many other communities will not wish to buy the local estate. In areas where there is no demand to purchase, what does the community do? I can give a specific example. Some people will have heard me talking about this; the minister has heard me mention this before. I call it the Blackford test. In the past, I have been highly critical of the Blackford estate, which is in my constituency. It has not signed up to the SLF and, despite the concerns frequently expressed by the local community, there is no detectable desire on the part of that community to own the estate. I would like to be able to say to those constituents that the promised bill will make some difference, and that, when they next come to me with complaints, I will be able to point them in the direction of a potential solution. On the existing evidence, that will not be the case. It may be that the Executive has further, as yet unrevealed, plans to bring in more reform measures that will do the job. If that is the case, I would like to hear them. In reality, a reliance on voluntary codes fails to bite the bullet and, to paraphrase, the spirit is willing but the will is weak. What we should be doing, at an absolute minimum, is making adherence to such codes the bottom line for the delivery of any public assistance. Preferably, the codes should be moved on to a firmer footing. The SNP has already proposed community contracts in which landowners, the state and local residents co-operate to promote sustainable development in Scotland's rural communities. That way, the rights and responsibilities of all parties would be clear. Where an estate is in receipt of public money, a community contract could clearly set out the conditions linked to the receipt of those funds. Where an estate changes hands, new owners would be required, as a condition of purchase, to negotiate a clear contract that states, amongst other things, their short-term development plans, the rights of tenants and the involvement of the community in the development of the estate. We all remember the wild promises made to the islanders of Eigg by Maruma. We should find a way to hold owners like Maruma to such promises. As I said, not all communities will want to purchase the estate. The SNP has also proposed mechanisms to facilitate the setting up of locality land councils, where there is demand. That would allow communities that have a central role in the development of local land use strategies and that work in liaison with the department for rural affairs to draw up local land plans as the basis for sustainable development. The introduction of those bodies would be linked to an overhaul of the structure of agencies and grants in Scotland, so that the available money can be spent more effectively and targeted at community-supported, sustainable projects. At the heart of that is a desire to involve communities in the land and in the areas in which they live. Before I move on to more specific issues relating to finance—", "EditedTextHTML": "If Mr McLetchie is talking about the current Perth and Kinross Council, he will know that it is the Tories who are involved in that coalition, with Labour, Liberal Democrat and independent members, not with the SNP. Perhaps he needs to speak to his own party.

The Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc (Scotland) Bill, at present before the Justice and Home Affairs Committee, will get a fair wind from the SNP, as will the other proposed law reform bills. Equally, the forthcoming land reform bill, when it finally appears, including its provisions for access, will be welcomed and supported, although perhaps not totally uncritically, by the SNP.

However, our amendment sums up our position on the central proposals in Mr Wallace's motion: we support them as far as they go, but think that they do not go far enough. The community right to buy, the tightening-up of compulsory purchases and voluntary codes of conduct do not a reform package make.

Despite the Conservative party's scaremongering, I think that the bill will fail to achieve real, deep change in the nature of land management, or land ownership. Short of community buy-outs, the only real nod in the direction of community involvement is in the voluntary codes of practice for rural land use and land ownership. In the land reform white paper, there was no mention of community involvement, except in the context of the purchase proposals.

Where I do find some scant, suggested reference to community involvement is in the progress reports. By the way, I find those reports very helpful. They are very welcome, and commend that approach to consultation prior to legislation, even if I am not entirely sure that a motion for debate is justified.

I notice from the most recent of those progress reports that the code of good practice for rural land ownership will not be published until September 2000, and a draft is currently with the land ownership consultative panel, while the separate—if I may be permitted to use that word— code of good practice on rural land use will eventually emerge at the end of 2000. Whatever appears, it is unlikely to deal with many of the problems facing communities in Scotland.

Voluntary codes can be ignored—and are very likely to be ignored—by corporate owners and landowners who are not signed up to organisations such as the Scottish Landowners Federation, of which, we should remember, there are more than a few. If voluntary codes are ignored, what then? The bill will offer community purchase but little else. I remind the Minister for Justice that even that ability to purchase will be triggered only when the estate comes on to the market; that does not deal with the existing abuses.

One prominent critic, Andy Wightman, has pointed out that most privately owned land in Scotland has never come up for sale in the past 100 years. Equally, the narrow definition of community that is contained in the proposals means that many deserving communities will not benefit. Despite the rhetoric, the truth is that many other communities will not wish to buy the local estate. In areas where there is no demand to purchase, what does the community do?

I can give a specific example. Some people will have heard me talking about this; the minister has heard me mention this before. I call it the Blackford test. In the past, I have been highly critical of the Blackford estate, which is in my constituency. It has not signed up to the SLF and, despite the concerns frequently expressed by the local community, there is no detectable desire on the part of that community to own the estate.

I would like to be able to say to those constituents that the promised bill will make some difference, and that, when they next come to me

with complaints, I will be able to point them in the direction of a potential solution. On the existing evidence, that will not be the case. It may be that the Executive has further, as yet unrevealed, plans to bring in more reform measures that will do the job. If that is the case, I would like to hear them.

In reality, a reliance on voluntary codes fails to bite the bullet and, to paraphrase, the spirit is willing but the will is weak. What we should be doing, at an absolute minimum, is making adherence to such codes the bottom line for the delivery of any public assistance. Preferably, the codes should be moved on to a firmer footing.

The SNP has already proposed community contracts in which landowners, the state and local residents co-operate to promote sustainable development in Scotland's rural communities. That way, the rights and responsibilities of all parties would be clear. Where an estate is in receipt of public money, a community contract could clearly set out the conditions linked to the receipt of those funds. Where an estate changes hands, new owners would be required, as a condition of purchase, to negotiate a clear contract that states, amongst other things, their short-term development plans, the rights of tenants and the involvement of the community in the development of the estate.

We all remember the wild promises made to the islanders of Eigg by Maruma. We should find a way to hold owners like Maruma to such promises. As I said, not all communities will want to purchase the estate.

The SNP has also proposed mechanisms to facilitate the setting up of locality land councils, where there is demand. That would allow communities that have a central role in the development of local land use strategies and that work in liaison with the department for rural affairs to draw up local land plans as the basis for sustainable development. The introduction of those bodies would be linked to an overhaul of the structure of agencies and grants in Scotland, so that the available money can be spent more effectively and targeted at community-supported, sustainable projects. At the heart of that is a desire to involve communities in the land and in the areas in which they live.

Before I move on to more specific issues relating to finance—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5607365+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1863E284P532C712199", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Cunningham, Roseanna", "ID": 1863, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Perth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Roseanna Cunningham", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Roseanna Cunningham: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 252.0, "ContributionID": 712199, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5607365+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C712205", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 264.0, "ContributionID": 712205, "EditedText": "He tried that last week. Laughter.", "EditedTextHTML": "He tried that last week. [Laughter.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5607365+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1893E47P78C712206", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnstone, Alex", "ID": 1893, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Johnstone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Johnstone: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 266.0, "ContributionID": 712206, "EditedText": "No, I apologise, but not at this point. There is, I am assured, no shortage of areas in which it is clear that members of the community have absolutely no desire to take on ownership of their land. The proposals that would allow an as yet unidentified community to exercise—before anyone else—the right to purchase land in rural Scotland are, in my opinion, wholly unjustified. There is a genuinely held fear that the process described in paragraph 1.7 of the Executive's land reform document will act as a disincentive to purchasers of land, who will be concerned about interference in any future sale because of that complex and potentially time-consuming process. The process will be a disincentive to outside investors, on whom many of our Scottish estates have become dependent in recent years. The willingness of some people to pour money into Scottish estates, gaining no apparent benefit for themselves, is a source of amazement to many. Those benefactors ought to be encouraged, not discouraged.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I apologise, but not at this point.

There is, I am assured, no shortage of areas in which it is clear that members of the community have absolutely no desire to take on ownership of their land. The proposals that would allow an as yet unidentified community to exercise—before anyone else—the right to purchase land in rural Scotland are, in my opinion, wholly unjustified.

There is a genuinely held fear that the process described in paragraph 1.7 of the Executive's land reform document will act as a disincentive to purchasers of land, who will be concerned about interference in any future sale because of that complex and potentially time-consuming process. The process will be a disincentive to outside investors, on whom many of our Scottish estates have become dependent in recent years.

The willingness of some people to pour money into Scottish estates, gaining no apparent benefit for themselves, is a source of amazement to many. Those benefactors ought to be encouraged, not discouraged.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5607365+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1888E265P358C712208", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morgan, Alasdair", "ID": 1888, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Galloway and Upper Nithsdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morgan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alasdair Morgan (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 270.0, "ContributionID": 712208, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5607365+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1893E47P78C712216", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnstone, Alex", "ID": 1893, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Johnstone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Johnstone: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 286.0, "ContributionID": 712216, "EditedText": "I am here today to put a point of view that has been correlated across a number of organisations. I have consulted widely and I am sure that the minister is prepared to admit that those organisations have been part of his consultation as well. Mr Jim Wallace indicated agreement.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am here today to put a point of view that has been correlated across a number of organisations. I have consulted widely and I am sure that the minister is prepared to admit that those organisations have been part of his consultation as well.

Mr Jim Wallace indicated agreement.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5607365+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1893E47P78C712218", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnstone, Alex", "ID": 1893, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Johnstone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Johnstone: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 290.0, "ContributionID": 712218, "EditedText": "How small?", "EditedTextHTML": "How small?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5607365+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C712219", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 292.0, "ContributionID": 712219, "EditedText": "The member will be aware that 790 people in Scotland own 60 per cent of all private land. Does the member believe that that type of ownership should continue?", "EditedTextHTML": "The member will be aware that 790 people in Scotland own 60 per cent of all private land. Does the member believe that that type of ownership should continue?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5607365+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C712221", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 296.0, "ContributionID": 712221, "EditedText": "So that is a yes.", "EditedTextHTML": "So that is a yes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5607365+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C712227", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 308.0, "ContributionID": 712227, "EditedText": "Wind up please, Mr Johnstone.", "EditedTextHTML": "Wind up please, Mr Johnstone.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5607365+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1876E194P490C712237", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Marwick, Tricia", "ID": 1876, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tricia Marwick", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tricia Marwick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 330.0, "ContributionID": 712237, "EditedText": "The current system of land tenure and ownership is a barrier to housing people in affordable homes. Land reform is necessary to allow communities to survive and grow. Land reform is the single most important tool that we have to address the rural housing crisis. The population of Scotland as a whole may be falling, but Scotland's rural population is growing. Housing waiting lists have grown by 45 per cent in rural areas, compared with 35 per cent in urban areas. Rural homelessness has increased by something like 70 per cent. In some areas, almost a quarter of the housing stock is below tolerable standard. There is a desperate shortage of affordable housing. That shortage can be traced back to bad management. Specifically, it can be traced back to a lack of available land for new housing, which is nonsense in one of the most sparsely populated areas of Europe. Access to house building is restricted by whether a landowner will sell, the price at which he is willing to sell and the conditions attached to the sale. I agree with Rhoda Grant that we need to create a register of land interests. I am pleased that the Executive is watching the Scottish land information system pilot, but I am disappointed that the scheme will only ever be a non- authoritative database. I would like the Executive to go a step further and use legislation to make land traceable and owners identifiable. In rural Scotland, land ownership is concentrated in the hands of a few. I am disappointed that Alex Johnstone is not here to hear that 80 per cent of private land is owned by", "EditedTextHTML": "The current system of land tenure and ownership is a barrier to housing people in affordable homes. Land reform is necessary to allow communities to survive and grow. Land reform is the single most important tool that we have to address the rural housing crisis. The population of Scotland as a whole may be falling, but Scotland's rural population is growing. Housing waiting lists have grown by 45 per cent in rural areas, compared with 35 per cent in urban areas. Rural homelessness has increased by something like 70 per cent. In some areas, almost a quarter of the housing stock is below tolerable standard.

There is a desperate shortage of affordable housing. That shortage can be traced back to bad management. Specifically, it can be traced back to a lack of available land for new housing, which is nonsense in one of the most sparsely populated areas of Europe.

Access to house building is restricted by whether a landowner will sell, the price at which he is willing to sell and the conditions attached to the sale. I agree with Rhoda Grant that we need to create a register of land interests. I am pleased that the Executive is watching the Scottish land information system pilot, but I am disappointed that the scheme will only ever be a non- authoritative database. I would like the Executive to go a step further and use legislation to make land traceable and owners identifiable.

In rural Scotland, land ownership is concentrated in the hands of a few. I am disappointed that Alex Johnstone is not here to hear that 80 per cent of private land is owned by

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5607365+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712238", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "0.8 per cent of the population. Mr Brian Monteith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "0.8 per cent of the population. Mr Brian Monteith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 332.0, "ContributionID": 712238, "EditedText": "How much of that land can be cultivated?", "EditedTextHTML": "How much of that land can be cultivated?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5607365+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C712244", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Jim Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 346.0, "ContributionID": 712244, "EditedText": "One of the considerations of the European convention on human rights, in relation to the community's right to buy, will be compensation for landowners. Is that a right that Phil Gallie would rather landowners did not have?", "EditedTextHTML": "One of the considerations of the European convention on human rights, in relation to the community's right to buy, will be compensation for landowners. Is that a right that Phil Gallie would rather landowners did not have?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5607365+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1781E188P474C712250", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McGugan, Irene", "ID": 1781, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Irene McGugan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Irene McGugan (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 361.0, "ContributionID": 712250, "EditedText": "Current land reform proposals encompass a wide range of issues, from national parks to landlord- tenant relationships and from feudal reform to access rights. I wish to concentrate on access rights. Few people will aspire to own or to manage land, but the majority will seek access for recreational purposes. Each week, Scottish residents take over 2 million walks in the countryside and 65,000 people in Scotland go horse riding. Over 45 per cent of Scottish households own at least one bicycle. That is good for the nation's health and for our tourist industry, but it is fraught with access problems. More than 60 per cent of people are unsure about where they can walk in the countryside and there are few routes for off-road riding, as only 4 per cent of recorded rights of way carry a right to ride a horse. That controversial area would benefit from further and much more detailed consideration. Jim Wallace advised us that the access proposals will apply to individuals who may choose to exercise the right collectively, and that they will not extend to commercial organisations and activities. However, there are many grey areas. For example, what about non-profit-making groups that organise walking or riding holidays? Do they fall into the commercial category? How will the landowner know if people are part of an organised group and not just friends or a family out together for a walk or a ride? What are the implications for outward bound courses? Since early 1998, the access forum has been developing proposals for new access arrangements in Scotland, which are based on a wide consensus among landowners, farmers, users and public agencies that are represented by the forum. Yet the white paper's proposals fail to take account of a great many of the forum's proposals and recommendations. Most groups with an interest in access issues are concerned that some of the recommendations that do not require primary legislation will not be taken on board, which could severely limit the effectiveness of the Executive's proposals in overcoming current difficulties. The forum strongly advises that the right of access without better management and greater investment will not work effectively. Additional resources must be made available to central and local government for paths; routes for walkers, cyclists and those with disabilities; the repair and maintenance of stiles and other infrastructure; and additional local authority staff and rangers. Grey areas such as those must be addressed. A Scottish countryside access code is to be devised. With regard to the status of that code, the white paper says that the proposed legislation will not introduce any new criminal offence, so if landowners or the public break the code, it is not clear what the outcome will be. That is a crucial area which requires resolution. With no legal status, the code could be in danger of being viewed as a paper exercise. Indeed, the content of the code will be one of the defining features in assessing the impact of the proposed legislation. The important issue of access is given little attention in the Executive's proposals. As has been highlighted by Roseanna Cunningham, such a complex issue, which affects everyone in Scotland, should be worthy of a separate, thoroughly researched piece of legislation on which there has been full consultation.", "EditedTextHTML": "Current land reform proposals encompass a wide range of issues, from national parks to landlord- tenant relationships and from feudal reform to access rights. I wish to concentrate on access rights.

Few people will aspire to own or to manage land, but the majority will seek access for recreational purposes. Each week, Scottish residents take over 2 million walks in the countryside and 65,000 people in Scotland go horse riding. Over 45 per cent of Scottish households own at least one bicycle. That is good for the nation's health and for our tourist industry, but it is fraught with access problems.

More than 60 per cent of people are unsure about where they can walk in the countryside and there are few routes for off-road riding, as only 4 per cent of recorded rights of way carry a right to ride a horse. That controversial area would benefit from further and much more detailed consideration.

Jim Wallace advised us that the access proposals will apply to individuals who may choose to exercise the right collectively, and that they will not extend to commercial organisations and activities. However, there are many grey areas. For example, what about non-profit-making groups that organise walking or riding holidays? Do they fall into the commercial category? How will the landowner know if people are part of an organised group and not just friends or a family out together for a walk or a ride? What are the implications for outward bound courses?

Since early 1998, the access forum has been developing proposals for new access arrangements in Scotland, which are based on a wide consensus among landowners, farmers, users and public agencies that are represented by the forum. Yet the white paper's proposals fail to take account of a great many of the forum's proposals and recommendations. Most groups with an interest in access issues are concerned that some of the recommendations that do not require primary legislation will not be taken on board, which could severely limit the effectiveness of the Executive's proposals in overcoming current difficulties.

The forum strongly advises that the right of access without better management and greater investment will not work effectively. Additional resources must be made available to central and local government for paths; routes for walkers, cyclists and those with disabilities; the repair and maintenance of stiles and other infrastructure; and additional local authority staff and rangers. Grey areas such as those must be addressed.

A Scottish countryside access code is to be devised. With regard to the status of that code, the white paper says that the proposed legislation will not introduce any new criminal offence, so if landowners or the public break the code, it is not clear what the outcome will be. That is a crucial area which requires resolution. With no legal status, the code could be in danger of being viewed as a paper exercise. Indeed, the content of the code will be one of the defining features in assessing the impact of the proposed legislation.

The important issue of access is given little attention in the Executive's proposals. As has been highlighted by Roseanna Cunningham, such a complex issue, which affects everyone in Scotland, should be worthy of a separate, thoroughly researched piece of legislation on which there has been full consultation.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5763611+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1901E57P277C712251", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Allan", "ID": 1901, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Cunninghame North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Allan Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Allan Wilson (Cunninghame North) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 364.0, "ContributionID": 712251, "EditedText": "I support the motion and welcome the minister's statement. I shall refer to two issues: the community right to buy and the right of responsible access. To take the latter issue first, I look forward— unashamedly, from a constituency viewpoint—to the legislation restoring the right of popular access to land at Portencross Castle, near Hunterston in north Ayrshire. The right of way for ramblers—Phil Gallie and others—from far afield has been barred to them for the past few years by the irresponsible and injudicious use of barbed razor wire. Without the legislation, there is no legal authority to have the wire removed and responsible access restored. For that reason, I welcome the legislation. I also welcome the steps that have been taken to lower the registration threshold which, quite unexpectedly, the white paper—as opposed to the green paper—created for the community right to buy. At least we now have the caveat that, in exceptional circumstances, the registration requirement can be sidelined. That seems to meet the valid objection that even in cases such as Assynt and Eigg, there would have been no right of community buyout under the proposed legislation, because no prior interest in buying the land had been registered. It might not meet the Blackford test referred to by Roseanna Cunningham, but I think that it meets the Eigg test. However, I still question the need for a registration requirement at all. The reality in relation to land purchase or any other kind of buyout is that people are most unlikely to act on a hypothetical basis. The feature of Scottish land ownership is not how quickly it changes, but how slowly. If we were to look at the land register drawn up in 1875, under the Administration of the Earl of Derby, we would be astonished to find out how few—rather than how many—have been the changes in title to the great estates. It is absurd to insist that people living in those areas should register their interest in advance of the acquisition of land, decades or even centuries before there is even the remotest prospect of it coming on to the market. The absurdity of that requirement is reflected in my constituency. On the island of Arran, land ownership and the abuses that flow from it are a perpetual nuisance and a concern of the highest priority. A large part of the island is still under the ownership of Arran Estates, which is directly descended from the dukes of Hamilton. If the legislation that is now proposed had been in existence in the 1880s, when, sadly, the dukes of Hamilton used their parliamentary influence to have Arran excluded from the crofting acts, people might have registered interest in the acquisition of land, but 120 years later, they would still be waiting for something to happen. That is an argument against the whole concept of registration, but it is also a sobering reminder of the limitations of the legislation that we are now proposing.", "EditedTextHTML": "I support the motion and welcome the minister's statement. I shall refer to two issues: the community right to buy and the right of responsible access.

To take the latter issue first, I look forward— unashamedly, from a constituency viewpoint—to the legislation restoring the right of popular access to land at Portencross Castle, near Hunterston in north Ayrshire. The right of way for ramblers—Phil Gallie and others—from far afield has been barred to them for the past few years by the irresponsible and injudicious use of barbed razor wire. Without the legislation, there is no legal authority to have the wire removed and responsible access restored. For that reason, I welcome the legislation.

I also welcome the steps that have been taken to lower the registration threshold which, quite unexpectedly, the white paper—as opposed to the green paper—created for the community right to buy. At least we now have the caveat that, in exceptional circumstances, the registration requirement can be sidelined. That seems to meet the valid objection that even in cases such as Assynt and Eigg, there would have been no right of community buyout under the proposed legislation, because no prior interest in buying the land had been registered. It might not meet the Blackford test referred to by Roseanna Cunningham, but I think that it meets the Eigg test.

However, I still question the need for a registration requirement at all. The reality in relation to land purchase or any other kind of buyout is that people are most unlikely to act on a hypothetical basis. The feature of Scottish land ownership is not how quickly it changes, but how slowly. If we were to look at the land register

drawn up in 1875, under the Administration of the Earl of Derby, we would be astonished to find out how few—rather than how many—have been the changes in title to the great estates. It is absurd to insist that people living in those areas should register their interest in advance of the acquisition of land, decades or even centuries before there is even the remotest prospect of it coming on to the market.

The absurdity of that requirement is reflected in my constituency. On the island of Arran, land ownership and the abuses that flow from it are a perpetual nuisance and a concern of the highest priority. A large part of the island is still under the ownership of Arran Estates, which is directly descended from the dukes of Hamilton. If the legislation that is now proposed had been in existence in the 1880s, when, sadly, the dukes of Hamilton used their parliamentary influence to have Arran excluded from the crofting acts, people might have registered interest in the acquisition of land, but 120 years later, they would still be waiting for something to happen.

That is an argument against the whole concept of registration, but it is also a sobering reminder of the limitations of the legislation that we are now proposing.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5763611+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1901E57P277C712253", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Allan", "ID": 1901, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Cunninghame North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Allan Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Allan Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 368.0, "ContributionID": 712253, "EditedText": "In some circumstances the legislation will do good, but unless the heirs of the Duke of Hamilton fall on hard times and put Arran Estates on the market, the communities that register their interest in 2000 may well be waiting for the opportunity to purchase when we enter the 22nd century. I have just a short time left—I will debate this subject with Phil another time. I whole-heartedly welcome the announcement on the crofting community right to buy. Sadly, Arran is not included, but I know from colleagues and others who have campaigned for it tirelessly that it will be a source of rejoicing in the Highlands and Islands.", "EditedTextHTML": "In some circumstances the legislation will do good, but unless the heirs of the Duke of Hamilton fall on hard times and put Arran Estates on the market, the communities that register their interest in 2000 may well be waiting for the opportunity to purchase when we enter the 22nd century.

I have just a short time left—I will debate this subject with Phil another time. I whole-heartedly welcome the announcement on the crofting community right to buy. Sadly, Arran is not included, but I know from colleagues and others who have campaigned for it tirelessly that it will be a source of rejoicing in the Highlands and Islands.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5763611+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2068E171P304C712254", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stone, Jamie", "ID": 2068, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie Stone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 371.0, "ContributionID": 712254, "EditedText": "I should like to make two short points to the Deputy First Minister. I have for some time pursued the issue of smallholdings and getting people back on to the land. I hope that there will be future moves on that. In Ross and Cromarty, there is a big farm near where I live that is owned by people from abroad, which is run in prairie style. I know that many local people would love to have a bit of that land, for a few sheep. An interesting example is that many people who work in the BMW factory in Stuttgart have smallholdings within commuting distance. In terms of land management, a better life and good agriculture, that makes sense. In the previous debate, Keith Raffan rightly raised the problem of old-age poverty. He quoted the figure that, with the increase in water charges and council tax, old people in Highland are £42.63 worse off. In the Western Isles, the figure is £38.97. As a Parliament, we should take on board his point about making representations to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I have gone on and on about the agricultural business improvement scheme—if we do not get such things right and do not give old people a decent standard of living, all these good proposals will founder, because people will continue to leave the glens. If Holyrood is to pull its weight, we must talk seriously and on an all-party basis to the chancellor and say that the legislation is in danger of not working. Amid the grandeur and the splendour of my constituency, old-age poverty is a serpent that is still with us—we must make the strongest representations on it.", "EditedTextHTML": "I should like to make two short points to the Deputy First Minister. I have for some time pursued the issue of smallholdings and getting people back on to the land. I hope that there will be future moves on that. In Ross and Cromarty, there is a big farm near where I live that is owned by people from abroad, which is run in prairie style. I know that many local people would love to have a bit of that land, for a few sheep. An interesting example is that many people who work in the BMW factory in Stuttgart have smallholdings within commuting distance. In terms of land management, a better life and good agriculture, that makes sense.

In the previous debate, Keith Raffan rightly raised the problem of old-age poverty. He quoted the figure that, with the increase in water charges and council tax, old people in Highland are £42.63 worse off. In the Western Isles, the figure is £38.97. As a Parliament, we should take on board his point about making representations to the Chancellor of the Exchequer.

I have gone on and on about the agricultural business improvement scheme—if we do not get such things right and do not give old people a decent standard of living, all these good proposals will founder, because people will continue to leave the glens. If Holyrood is to pull its weight, we must talk seriously and on an all-party basis to the chancellor and say that the legislation is in danger of not working. Amid the grandeur and the splendour of my constituency, old-age poverty is a serpent that is still with us—we must make the strongest representations on it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5763611+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2140E187P335C712259", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Rumbles, Mike", "ID": 2140, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Rumbles", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Rumbles rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 383.0, "ContributionID": 712259, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5763611+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1892E34P73C712260", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Fergusson, Alex", "ID": 1892, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Fergusson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Fergusson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 385.0, "ContributionID": 712260, "EditedText": "I am sorry, but I do not have time to give way. Mike Rumbles should blame the Executive for not allowing long enough for debates such as this. MEMBERS: \"Hear, hear.\" The right to debate should allow us more than the one and a quarter hours that were originally scheduled. Any assertion by the Executive that it has rural issues at the top of its agenda was negated by the Opposition debate on rural affairs two weeks ago. The Labour party's commitment to rural affairs was measurable by the attendance—throughout most of that debate—of five of its members. That is the true measure of Labour's interest in rural affairs and that will not be forgiven quickly by the rural electorate.Let us examine the proposals for what they really are—an attempt to show that this Parliament can, as we keep hearing, make a difference so that the Executive can pat itself on its collective back and wallow in the self-congratulatory mire that today's motion exemplifies. Members may ask what puts the Conservatives in the same critical boat as Andy Wightman. I am happy to tell them the answer. Let us take the proposals on access, which will create a \"right of responsible access\". The word \"responsible\" throws up two problems. The first is the definition of what is and what is not responsible. The second is the ownership of responsibility in cases relating to accidents or damage. A dispute might be referred to a local arbitration forum. Will not it be too late, even if that forum finds in favour of the landowner? The damage will have been done. I suggest that freedom of access is a subject worthy of its own programme in the Parliament. It is vital to get it right, but that will be difficult when access is dealt with merely as a subsection of other legislation. The proposals for feudal tenure—which were skipped over—are equally flawed. Although we are perfectly happy for abuses within the system to be rectified, the proposed legislation will do nothing to recognise the many positive protective features that the feudal system offers. Would the new town of Edinburgh be so architecturally magnificent without the feudal system? Members who are lucky enough to be acquainted with the village of Gatehouse of Fleet in Galloway will appreciate the conservationist capabilities of that same system. Time does not permit me to highlight the vast number of flaws in the proposals on the community right to buy. The Conservatives have no objection to community ownership where there is local demand for it, where it is economically viable and where purchases are made on the open market. The Executive's proposals seek simply to transfer the financial burden of running some estates from the private owner to the taxpayer or the lottery player—whoever has the most money to spare at the time. By giving such lengthy consultation time to communities, and by giving a role to the district valuer, the proposals can have only an adverse effect on the overall value of land. That will, in turn, significantly reduce the willingness of landowners to maintain investments in their properties. That is not the best way forward for rural Scotland. The SNP amendment suggests that that party, too, agrees with Andy Wightman, although not for the same reasons as the Conservatives do. Its long-term land reform policies were summed up by Roseanna Cunningham, who said in the House of Commons that the SNP sought people's land reform in Scotland. She continued: \"That means ultimate ownership of the land by and for the people of Scotland.\"—Official Report, House of Commons, 29 April 1998; Vol 311, c 247. That system was tried by the communists—look what happened to them. Mr Wallace's motion and the SNP amendment will do nothing to address the real problems in rural Scotland. That would be done better by tackling the planning regulations and the planning authorities, which embody the real bars to rural innovation and prosperity. We require practical solutions, not ideological theorising. I am pleased to support the amendment in the name of my colleague Alex Johnstone.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry, but I do not have time to give way. Mike Rumbles should blame the Executive for not allowing long enough for debates such as this. [MEMBERS: \"Hear, hear.\"] The right to debate should allow us more than the one and a quarter hours that were originally scheduled.

Any assertion by the Executive that it has rural issues at the top of its agenda was negated by the Opposition debate on rural affairs two weeks ago. The Labour party's commitment to rural affairs was measurable by the attendance—throughout most of that debate—of five of its members. That is the true measure of Labour's interest in rural affairs and that will not be forgiven quickly by the

rural electorate.

Let us examine the proposals for what they really are—an attempt to show that this Parliament can, as we keep hearing, make a difference so that the Executive can pat itself on its collective back and wallow in the self-congratulatory mire that today's motion exemplifies.

Members may ask what puts the Conservatives in the same critical boat as Andy Wightman. I am happy to tell them the answer. Let us take the proposals on access, which will create a \"right of responsible access\". The word \"responsible\" throws up two problems. The first is the definition of what is and what is not responsible. The second is the ownership of responsibility in cases relating to accidents or damage.

A dispute might be referred to a local arbitration forum. Will not it be too late, even if that forum finds in favour of the landowner? The damage will have been done. I suggest that freedom of access is a subject worthy of its own programme in the Parliament. It is vital to get it right, but that will be difficult when access is dealt with merely as a subsection of other legislation.

The proposals for feudal tenure—which were skipped over—are equally flawed. Although we are perfectly happy for abuses within the system to be rectified, the proposed legislation will do nothing to recognise the many positive protective features that the feudal system offers. Would the new town of Edinburgh be so architecturally magnificent without the feudal system? Members who are lucky enough to be acquainted with the village of Gatehouse of Fleet in Galloway will appreciate the conservationist capabilities of that same system.

Time does not permit me to highlight the vast number of flaws in the proposals on the community right to buy. The Conservatives have no objection to community ownership where there is local demand for it, where it is economically viable and where purchases are made on the open market. The Executive's proposals seek simply to transfer the financial burden of running some estates from the private owner to the taxpayer or the lottery player—whoever has the most money to spare at the time.

By giving such lengthy consultation time to communities, and by giving a role to the district valuer, the proposals can have only an adverse effect on the overall value of land. That will, in turn, significantly reduce the willingness of landowners to maintain investments in their properties. That is not the best way forward for rural Scotland.

The SNP amendment suggests that that party, too, agrees with Andy Wightman, although not for the same reasons as the Conservatives do. Its long-term land reform policies were summed up by Roseanna Cunningham, who said in the House of Commons that the SNP sought people's land reform in Scotland. She continued:

\"That means ultimate ownership of the land by and for the people of Scotland.\"—[Official Report, House of Commons, 29 April 1998; Vol 311, c 247.]

That system was tried by the communists—look what happened to them.

Mr Wallace's motion and the SNP amendment will do nothing to address the real problems in rural Scotland. That would be done better by tackling the planning regulations and the planning authorities, which embody the real bars to rural innovation and prosperity. We require practical solutions, not ideological theorising. I am pleased to support the amendment in the name of my colleague Alex Johnstone.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5763611+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1888E265P358C712261", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morgan, Alasdair", "ID": 1888, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Galloway and Upper Nithsdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morgan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alasdair Morgan (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 388.0, "ContributionID": 712261, "EditedText": "The SNP welcomes the fact that land reform is one of the first areas on which the Parliament is legislating, although a cynic might say that it is happening partly because the legislation has no immediate financial implications. I start by addressing some earlier comments, particularly from the Conservatives. Alex Johnstone raised an old chestnut. He said that, because of the crisis in agriculture and in some areas of the rural economy, we should not be legislating on land reform—as if not doing so would somehow help the rural economy and agriculture. The Conservatives used the same argument when devolution was proposed— because of various crises, we should not waste time talking about devolution. That argument was as wrong then as it is now. We also heard that land reform will stop investors pouring money into Scotland. We should wonder why, if so much money is pouring in, the rural economy is still in crisis. The Conservatives gave us two messages on access. Alex Johnstone told us that we could all enjoy Scotland's beauty on The Scotsman colour calendar, but that we should not walk in it. However, Phil Gallie told us that there was no problem with access and that we could go wherever we wanted. Those conflicting messages do not stand up to much examination. Alex Johnstone also prayed in aid the European convention on human rights, saying that some of his supporters or correspondents were going to bring cases under it. I was somewhat surprised by that, as I thought that the Tories did not want the European convention on human rights to overrule the judgments of our courts. I was reassured when, later, Phil Gallie stuck the boot into Europe in his usual fashion.It was disappointing that there was no mention of the Conservatives' policy. I think that we know what their policy is—", "EditedTextHTML": "The SNP welcomes the fact that land reform is one of the first areas on which the Parliament is legislating, although a cynic might say that it is happening partly because the legislation has no immediate financial implications.

I start by addressing some earlier comments, particularly from the Conservatives. Alex Johnstone raised an old chestnut. He said that, because of the crisis in agriculture and in some areas of the rural economy, we should not be legislating on land reform—as if not doing so would somehow help the rural economy and agriculture. The Conservatives used the same argument when devolution was proposed— because of various crises, we should not waste time talking about devolution. That argument was as wrong then as it is now. We also heard that land reform will stop investors pouring money into Scotland. We should wonder why, if so much money is pouring in, the rural economy is still in crisis.

The Conservatives gave us two messages on access. Alex Johnstone told us that we could all enjoy Scotland's beauty on The Scotsman colour calendar, but that we should not walk in it. However, Phil Gallie told us that there was no problem with access and that we could go wherever we wanted. Those conflicting messages do not stand up to much examination.

Alex Johnstone also prayed in aid the European convention on human rights, saying that some of his supporters or correspondents were going to bring cases under it. I was somewhat surprised by that, as I thought that the Tories did not want the European convention on human rights to overrule the judgments of our courts. I was reassured when, later, Phil Gallie stuck the boot into Europe

in his usual fashion.

It was disappointing that there was no mention of the Conservatives' policy. I think that we know what their policy is—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5763611+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1893E47P78C712267", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnstone, Alex", "ID": 1893, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Johnstone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Johnstone: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 401.0, "ContributionID": 712267, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5763611+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C712270", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Angus MacKay: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 407.0, "ContributionID": 712270, "EditedText": "I am not familiar with all the absentee crofters who are known to Mr Monteith. Perhaps we can continue that discussion later, when I know their circumstances. Our plans for legislation, in the remainder of this session, focus on the reform of real burdens, sites of special scientific interest, agricultural holdings and crofting. Taken together, those issues will form a major part of the legislative programme for the lifetime of this Parliament. Many of our plans do not require new legislation. For example, we are pressing ahead with the establishment of the Scottish land fund and we are putting in place codes of good practice for land ownership and land use. All that work is now well under way. We also have in hand plans for research and further study of a range of other issues. For example, we are considering making adherence to the codes a condition for the receipt of public assistance. That is an important point; it is relevant to several of the issues that have been raised today. A review of compulsory purchase and compensation legislation is well under way, and the Scottish Law Commission has been asked to recommend changes to the law of the foreshore and the sea bed. All those measures will lay the foundation for further action in due course. They are just a start, and certainly not the last word, on land reform. I want to deal with some of the points that were made in the debate. I cannot hope to answer them all, as there were so many, but I will be more than happy to deal in writing with any that I miss out. Mr McLetchie raised the point that exceptional late registration lengthens the process and adds to landowners' costs. Clearly, that ministerial power is an exceptional one, which should be used only in exceptional circumstances. However, when a landowner is faced with extra costs as a direct result of those circumstances, compensation will be payable. That should address Mr McLetchie's concern. Roseanna Cunningham raised several points, three of which I propose to deal with now. The first concerned whether voluntary codes would make a material difference. Our approach is to try voluntary persuasion first. A number of measures can be put in place alongside voluntary persuasion; they can take us a long way down that path. I have mentioned the most important of those—the establishment of codes for public sector assistance to public and private landlords, and the attachment of conditions that would help to enforce those codes. Those could make a substantive difference.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am not familiar with all the absentee crofters who are known to Mr Monteith. Perhaps we can continue that discussion later, when I know their circumstances.

Our plans for legislation, in the remainder of this session, focus on the reform of real burdens, sites of special scientific interest, agricultural holdings and crofting. Taken together, those issues will form a major part of the legislative programme for the lifetime of this Parliament.

Many of our plans do not require new legislation. For example, we are pressing ahead with the establishment of the Scottish land fund and we are putting in place codes of good practice for land ownership and land use. All that work is now well under way. We also have in hand plans for research and further study of a range of other issues. For example, we are considering making adherence to the codes a condition for the receipt of public assistance. That is an important point; it is relevant to several of the issues that have been raised today. A review of compulsory purchase and compensation legislation is well under way, and the Scottish Law Commission has been asked to recommend changes to the law of the foreshore and the sea bed. All those measures will lay the foundation for further action in due course. They are just a start, and certainly not the last word, on land reform.

I want to deal with some of the points that were made in the debate. I cannot hope to answer them all, as there were so many, but I will be more than happy to deal in writing with any that I miss out. Mr McLetchie raised the point that exceptional late registration lengthens the process and adds to landowners' costs. Clearly, that ministerial power is an exceptional one, which should be used only in exceptional circumstances. However, when a landowner is faced with extra costs as a direct result of those circumstances, compensation will be payable. That should address Mr McLetchie's concern.

Roseanna Cunningham raised several points, three of which I propose to deal with now. The first concerned whether voluntary codes would make a material difference. Our approach is to try voluntary persuasion first. A number of measures can be put in place alongside voluntary persuasion; they can take us a long way down that path. I have mentioned the most important of those—the establishment of codes for public sector assistance to public and private landlords, and the attachment of conditions that would help to enforce those codes. Those could make a substantive difference.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5763611+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C712276", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Angus MacKay: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 419.0, "ContributionID": 712276, "EditedText": "I have not been able to deal with a number of points, as this has been a wide- ranging debate. I finish by stressing the fact that the Executive has gone out of its way to make the process of consultation—which began before its existence— on land reform as thorough, open and lengthy as necessary, but within a time frame that allows it to deliver the legislation early in the new Parliament's programme. We are happy to take a consultative approach all the way through to the legislation's enactment. We will listen to all viewpoints as they continue to be aired—those that have been mentioned today and those that have not. I commend the motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have not been able to deal with a number of points, as this has been a wide- ranging debate.

I finish by stressing the fact that the Executive has gone out of its way to make the process of consultation—which began before its existence— on land reform as thorough, open and lengthy as necessary, but within a time frame that allows it to deliver the legislation early in the new Parliament's programme. We are happy to take a consultative approach all the way through to the legislation's enactment. We will listen to all viewpoints as they continue to be aired—those that have been mentioned today and those that have not.

I commend the motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5763611+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712280", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27107, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 426.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 426.0, "ID": 27107, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 430.0, "ContributionID": 712280, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5763611+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C712281", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27107, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 426.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 426.0, "ID": 27107, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 432.0, "ContributionID": 712281, "EditedText": "There will be a division.", "EditedTextHTML": "There will be a division.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5763611+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C712285", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27107, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 426.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 426.0, "ID": 27107, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 438.0, "ContributionID": 712285, "EditedText": "The second question is, that amendment S1M-314.1, in the name of Bill Aitken, seeking to amend motion S1M-314, in the name of Ms Wendy Alexander, on social justice targets, be agreed to. Are we agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "The second question is, that amendment S1M-314.1, in the name of Bill Aitken, seeking to amend motion S1M-314, in the name of Ms Wendy Alexander, on social justice targets, be agreed to. Are we agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5763611+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712288", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27107, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 426.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 426.0, "ID": 27107, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 444.0, "ContributionID": 712288, "EditedText": "FOR Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)AGAINST Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)(LD)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)

AGAINST

Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)
(LD)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5763611+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C712300", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27107, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 426.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 426.0, "ID": 27107, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 463.0, "ContributionID": 712300, "EditedText": "There will be a division.", "EditedTextHTML": "There will be a division.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5763611+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712301", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27107, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 426.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 426.0, "ID": 27107, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 465.0, "ContributionID": 712301, "EditedText": "FOR Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)AGAINST Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)(LD)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)

AGAINST

Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)
(LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5763611+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C712306", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27107, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 426.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 426.0, "ID": 27107, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 473.0, "ContributionID": 712306, "EditedText": "There will be a division.", "EditedTextHTML": "There will be a division.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5763611+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712309", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27107, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 426.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 426.0, "ID": 27107, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 478.0, "ContributionID": 712309, "EditedText": "Amendment disagreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment disagreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5763611+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C712310", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27107, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 426.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 426.0, "ID": 27107, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 479.0, "ContributionID": 712310, "EditedText": "The sixth question is, that motion S1M-313, in the name of Mr Jim Wallace, on land reform, be agreed to. Are we agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "The sixth question is, that motion S1M-313, in the name of Mr Jim Wallace, on land reform, be agreed to. Are we agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5763611+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C712312", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27107, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 426.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 426.0, "ID": 27107, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 483.0, "ContributionID": 712312, "EditedText": "There will be a division.", "EditedTextHTML": "There will be a division.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5763611+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712313", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27107, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 426.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 426.0, "ID": 27107, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 485.0, "ContributionID": 712313, "EditedText": "FOR Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)(LD)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)AGAINST Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)ABSTENTIONS McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)
(LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)

AGAINST

Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)

ABSTENTIONS

McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5763611+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712319", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27107, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 426.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 426.0, "ID": 27107, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 493.0, "ContributionID": 712319, "EditedText": "That the Parliament agrees that the draft Scotland Act 1998 (Transitory and Transitional Provisions) (Appropriations) Amendment Order 1999 be approved.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament agrees that the draft Scotland Act 1998 (Transitory and Transitional Provisions) (Appropriations) Amendment Order 1999 be approved.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5763611+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1916E38P70C712325", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tobacco Sales", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27108, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 494.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 494.0, "ID": 27108, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Ben", "ID": 1916, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ben Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ben Wallace (North-East Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 506.0, "ContributionID": 712325, "EditedText": "I point out to Fergus Ewing, in response to his comment about Margaret Thatcher, that Irene Oldfather's motion is underpinned by an all-party belief in the need to prevent smoking and the damage it causes. I am grateful to Irene Oldfather for lodging a motion that is so good that I am able to support it fully. Many of us hold different views on smoking in public places and on how smoking affects adults. We can go some way towards limiting and preventing problems in the future by ensuring that people are prevented from getting hooked on smoking at a young age. Before speaking today, I researched the penalties that tobacconists face if they sell cigarettes to under-age children. They are not high. Someone who is found guilty—which would be a miracle, because the number of prosecutions is limited—faces a maximum fine of £2,500. Irene Oldfather's suggestion of negative licensing would be a good step. Phil Gallie has left the chamber, but his suggestion of the need for a decent system of identity cards would go some way towards clearing up the confusion for tobacconists and licensees. During last week's debate on Phil Gallie's motion, I popped into a newsagent's shop to buy a bar of chocolate. A young boy was buying a packet of cigarettes. I am sure that it was only my presence and that of the policeman to whom I was chatting that made the newsagent go through the rigmarole of asking for some form of ID. Smoking has a damaging effect on Scotland's health. The problems will not go away. The adults who smoke have many years left to use up a lot of national health service resources. I have my own views about smoking in restaurants and so on, but I hope that tobacconists will take responsibility for the drug that they sell. I smoke, having started as a teenager because I was not allowed to and wanted to rebel. I remember the days of those rather lame adverts featuring Nick O'Teen battling against Superman. They did me no good and it was never hard to get cigarettes over the counter. I support Irene Oldfather's motion. I believe that there is a will to prevent the illegal supply of tobacco to young teenagers.", "EditedTextHTML": "I point out to Fergus Ewing, in response to his comment about Margaret Thatcher, that Irene Oldfather's motion is underpinned by an all-party belief in the need to prevent smoking and the damage it causes. I am grateful to Irene Oldfather for lodging a motion that is so good that I am able to support it fully.

Many of us hold different views on smoking in public places and on how smoking affects adults. We can go some way towards limiting and preventing problems in the future by ensuring that people are prevented from getting hooked on smoking at a young age. Before speaking today, I researched the penalties that tobacconists face if they sell cigarettes to under-age children. They are not high. Someone who is found guilty—which would be a miracle, because the number of prosecutions is limited—faces a maximum fine of £2,500.

Irene Oldfather's suggestion of negative licensing would be a good step. Phil Gallie has left the chamber, but his suggestion of the need for a decent system of identity cards would go some way towards clearing up the confusion for tobacconists and licensees. During last week's debate on Phil Gallie's motion, I popped into a newsagent's shop to buy a bar of chocolate. A young boy was buying a packet of cigarettes. I am sure that it was only my presence and that of the policeman to whom I was chatting that made the newsagent go through the rigmarole of asking for some form of ID.

Smoking has a damaging effect on Scotland's health. The problems will not go away. The adults who smoke have many years left to use up a lot of national health service resources.

I have my own views about smoking in restaurants and so on, but I hope that tobacconists will take responsibility for the drug that they sell. I smoke, having started as a teenager because I was not allowed to and wanted to rebel. I remember the days of those rather lame adverts featuring Nick O'Teen battling against Superman. They did me no good and it was never hard to get cigarettes over the counter.

I support Irene Oldfather's motion. I believe that there is a will to prevent the illegal supply of tobacco to young teenagers.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C712328", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tobacco Sales", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27108, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 494.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 494.0, "ID": 27108, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Richard Simpson (Ochil) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 514.0, "ContributionID": 712328, "EditedText": "Does Hugh Henry agree that the solutions that Irene Oldfather has proposed apply equally to mobile shops? We have to ensure that the withdrawal of a licence from a van also applies to the operating company.", "EditedTextHTML": "Does Hugh Henry agree that the solutions that Irene Oldfather has proposed apply equally to mobile shops? We have to ensure that the withdrawal of a licence from a van also applies to the operating company.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C712331", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tobacco Sales", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27108, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 494.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 494.0, "ID": 27108, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Brian Monteith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 522.0, "ContributionID": 712331, "EditedText": "I thank Irene Oldfather for introducing this motion. It is a serious and sincere contribution to the debate about tobacco. The motion suggests what might be done to limit young people's access to tobacco. I think that \"repeatedly\", as in \"repeatedly sell tobacco\", may be the one flaw in the argument. As Irene explained, prosecution is often difficult. I must declare that I used to work as a consultant for an organisation called the Freedom Organisation for the Right to Enjoy Smoking Tobacco, which represents the rights of smokers. One of the policies it proselytised, which I did not agree with, was the idea that young people who purchase tobacco should be prosecuted. I can see some logic behind the argument that prosecution of those who are breaking the law by selling a product should be extended to those who seek to conspire to break the law by buying the product illegally, but I do not feel that that would help. We have to ask what makes young people smoke. I do not accept that advertising is the cause: I do not agree that the glamour of Reg advertising Regal cigarettes or the surrealism of Silk Cut adverts is responsible. Indeed, the most prominent feature of many adverts is the health warning. In my view, the biggest influence is undoubtedly peer-group pressure—the icons and fashion cycles that matter to young people. I was a member of a family that smoked, but I chose not to smoke—possibly for the reasons that Fergus Ewing suggested. That may also be why I turned out to be a Tory, as everybody else in my family was a Labour voter. After taking up smoking at a young age in order to be accepted by their peers and to fit in with fashion, it is no wonder that by their mid-20s people decide to stop smoking. They become more concerned about their health and the financial pressures of smoking, and they no longer place so much value on being part of a peer group. Fifty per cent of people aged 16 have tried drugs, but I do not see many adverts for drugs. That is why we have to focus our attacks on peer-group pressure. I would support moves to introduce identity cards, as they would provide newsagents with a more accurate guide to people's age. Newsagents can identify very young children and should definitely be prosecuted for selling to them. The difficulty lies with those at the margins, the 14 and 15-year-olds; newsagents find it hard to tell whether such children are 16. That is why some pubs are not open to people under 21 years of age—it is not because the publicans cannot tell whether their customers are 21, but because they cannot tell whether they are 18. We need to work with newsagents to find ways of making the age of young people clear to them, so that they can continue to go about what is, after all, a legal business.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank Irene Oldfather for introducing this motion. It is a serious and sincere contribution to the debate about tobacco.

The motion suggests what might be done to limit young people's access to tobacco. I think that \"repeatedly\", as in \"repeatedly sell tobacco\", may be the one flaw in the argument. As Irene explained, prosecution is often difficult.

I must declare that I used to work as a consultant for an organisation called the Freedom Organisation for the Right to Enjoy Smoking Tobacco, which represents the rights of smokers. One of the policies it proselytised, which I did not agree with, was the idea that young people who purchase tobacco should be prosecuted. I can see some logic behind the argument that prosecution of those who are breaking the law by selling a product should be extended to those who seek to conspire to break the law by buying the product illegally, but I do not feel that that would help.

We have to ask what makes young people smoke. I do not accept that advertising is the cause: I do not agree that the glamour of Reg advertising Regal cigarettes or the surrealism of Silk Cut adverts is responsible. Indeed, the most prominent feature of many adverts is the health warning.

In my view, the biggest influence is undoubtedly peer-group pressure—the icons and fashion cycles that matter to young people. I was a member of a family that smoked, but I chose not to smoke—possibly for the reasons that Fergus Ewing suggested. That may also be why I turned out to be a Tory, as everybody else in my family was a Labour voter. After taking up smoking at a young age in order to be accepted by their peers and to fit in with fashion, it is no wonder that by their mid-20s people decide to stop smoking. They become more concerned about their health and the financial pressures of smoking, and they no longer place so much value on being part of a peer group. Fifty per cent of people aged 16 have tried drugs, but I do not see many adverts for drugs. That is why we have to focus our attacks on peer-group pressure.

I would support moves to introduce identity cards, as they would provide newsagents with a more accurate guide to people's age. Newsagents can identify very young children and should definitely be prosecuted for selling to them. The difficulty lies with those at the margins, the 14 and 15-year-olds; newsagents find it hard to tell whether such children are 16. That is why some pubs are not open to people under 21 years of age—it is not because the publicans cannot tell whether their customers are 21, but because they cannot tell whether they are 18. We need to work with newsagents to find ways of making the age of young people clear to them, so that they can continue to go about what is, after all, a legal business.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C712333", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tobacco Sales", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27108, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 494.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 494.0, "ID": 27108, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 527.0, "ContributionID": 712333, "EditedText": "That brings this evening's business to a close. I thank members for their attendance.", "EditedTextHTML": "That brings this evening's business to a close. I thank members for their attendance.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:17.5919873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1773E197P503C712160", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hyslop, Fiona", "ID": 1773, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona Hyslop", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona Hyslop rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 170.0, "ContributionID": 712160, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:00:47.4376059+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1756E184P464C712256", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Land Reform", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27105, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 27105, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Grahame, Christine", "ID": 1756, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Christine Grahame", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 376.0, "ContributionID": 712256, "EditedText": "Does the member agree that under the proposed legislation, the registration of community interests and the community right to buy apply only to landowners? Would it be appropriate for consideration to be given to Scotland's 10,000 tenant farmers, so that they—as well as farm owners—are entitled to take part in the consultation process?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the member agree that under the proposed legislation, the registration of community interests and the community right to buy apply only to landowners? Would it be appropriate for consideration to be given to Scotland's 10,000 tenant farmers, so that they—as well as farm owners—are entitled to take part in the consultation process?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:00:47.4376059+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1783E59P270C712173", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Baillie, Jackie", "ID": 1783, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumbarton" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Jackie Baillie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Jackie Baillie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 196.0, "ContributionID": 712173, "EditedText": "No. Incidentally, perhaps Lloyd Quinan should read Mr Salmond's amendment; it welcomes our document. I am not surprised by that, because the document is similar to what the SNP proposed in its manifesto, which borrowed ideas from us. We thank the SNP for that flattery. I will quote from that manifesto, because it is evident that it has been a while since SNP members read it. It mentions a \"co-ordinated approach\"—that is precisely the approach that we are taking. It also mentions the \"publication of poverty indicators, to show that poverty is being tackled and eradicated\". That, too, is precisely what we are doing. Yet I found no mention in the manifesto of—", "EditedTextHTML": "No. Incidentally, perhaps Lloyd Quinan should read Mr Salmond's amendment; it welcomes our document. I am not surprised by that, because the document is similar to what the SNP proposed in its manifesto, which borrowed ideas from us. We thank the SNP for that flattery. I will quote from that manifesto, because it is evident that it has been a while since SNP members read it. It mentions a \"co-ordinated approach\"—that is precisely the approach that we are taking. It also mentions the

\"publication of poverty indicators, to show that poverty is being tackled and eradicated\".

That, too, is precisely what we are doing. Yet I found no mention in the manifesto of—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:13:41.2269066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1783E59P270C712175", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Baillie, Jackie", "ID": 1783, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumbarton" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Jackie Baillie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Jackie Baillie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 200.0, "ContributionID": 712175, "EditedText": "I will give way in a second. Perhaps Fiona could answer my question. I could find no mention in the SNP manifesto of full employment or ending child poverty. Are not those policies important to the SNP?", "EditedTextHTML": "I will give way in a second. Perhaps Fiona could answer my question. I could find no mention in the SNP manifesto of full employment or ending child poverty. Are not those policies important to the SNP?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:13:41.2269066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1783E59P270C712163", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Nov 1999", "ID": 4193 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Social Justice", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27104, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 27104, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Baillie, Jackie", "ID": 1783, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumbarton" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Jackie Baillie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Jackie Baillie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 176.0, "ContributionID": 712163, "EditedText": "How dare the Tories lecture us today on failing to address the needs of Scotland's people?", "EditedTextHTML": "How dare the Tories lecture us today on failing to address the needs of Scotland's people?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:12:28.4701587+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C712023", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Digital Scotland", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27099, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 599.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 599.0, "ID": 27099, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 697.0, "ContributionID": 712023, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:00:15.9738701+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C711788", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 176.0, "ContributionID": 711788, "EditedText": "Like John Swinney, I welcome this morning's debate. However, there are several points that I would like to raise. The motion talks about modernising all sectors of the Scottish economy; I hope that ministers are genuine in pursuing that objective. There is no doubt that the Executive needs a clear strategy to ease the transition from traditional manufacturing industries—where necessary—but it must not write off traditional industries that have an important role to play in the Scottish economy as we move into the new millennium. I would like to take shipbuilding as a specific example of such an industry. There is a widespread but mistaken belief that the Scottish shipbuilding industry is a smokestack industry, struggling to drag itself into this century, never mind being ready to move into the next one. Nothing could be further from the truth. Shipbuilding is an extremely modern, high-tech industry, employing highly skilled workers. Some 4,000 people are directly employed in the industry and the work of thousands more depends on it. In recent times, the Kvaerner yard at Govan has built a prototype command ship for launching communication satellites into space and an oil drill test well vessel, for on-board drilling and processing. That is hardly smokestack—it is as high-tech as possible. In his opening remarks, Henry McLeish asked for suggestions about centres of excellence. I suggest that there is a case for a centre of excellence in shipbuilding technology on the Clyde. I trust that the deputy minister will pass on that suggestion to the minister. Shipbuilding is an industry under pressure. The Parliament needs to know what the Executive can do to protect and sustain shipbuilding and similar industries. The SNP amendment and John Swinney's remarks about the Parliament's lack of macro-economic powers go to the heart of the matter. I refer the deputy minister to an observation made by a Kvaerner spokesperson on 13 April 1999, the morning that Kvaerner announced its withdrawal from shipbuilding. The spokesman said that the strength of the pound had had a negative impact on our ability to be competitive. The question posed by John Swinney remains. What can the Executive do to protect the Scottish economy and its industries from inappropriate economic policies pursued by Westminster? The experience of the shipyard workers in Govan during the campaign to secure a buyer for the yard did not do much to instil public confidence in the Scottish Executive, which was rather conspicuous by its absence. Ironically, there is a suggestion that it is the Executive that is responsible for the delays in GEC-Marconi's buyout of Kvaerner. Although we remain confident that the deal will go ahead, it would settle a few nerves in Glasgow if, in his summing up, the deputy minister reassured the workers of Kvaerner that the Scottish Executive is not responsible for any delays. Finally, I want to refer to the external pressures faced by shipbuilding. The motion talks about global competition; the minister will be aware that the global competition faced by our shipbuilding industry is unfair. In particular, he will be aware of the allegations that South Korea is illegally subsidising its shipbuilding industry using International Monetary Fund loans to run its shipyards at a loss. That is particularly pertinent to the Govan yard as it bids for a Ministry of Defence contract, because one of the rival bidders intends to build its ferries in Korea. I would appreciate the minister's comments on that. That matter will be pursued at the highest European levels, and rightly so. Last week, we heard about the Executive's record in pressing Scotland's case in Europe and how that record left much to be desired. The workers in shipyards in Scotland would appreciate the assurance of Scottish ministers that they will forcefully press the case for our shipbuilding industry in Europe. We welcome the debate, but the Scottish people deserve to know that the Executive has the will, and more crucial, the power to do everything that is necessary to sustain industries in Scotland and to build a vibrant economy that is fit for the next millennium.", "EditedTextHTML": "Like John Swinney, I welcome this morning's debate. However, there are several points that I would like to raise. The motion talks about modernising all sectors of the Scottish economy; I hope that ministers are genuine in pursuing that objective. There is no doubt that the Executive needs a clear strategy to ease the transition from traditional manufacturing industries—where necessary—but it must not write off traditional industries that have an important role to play in the Scottish economy as we move into the new millennium.

I would like to take shipbuilding as a specific example of such an industry. There is a widespread but mistaken belief that the Scottish shipbuilding industry is a smokestack industry, struggling to drag itself into this century, never mind being ready to move into the next one. Nothing could be further from the truth. Shipbuilding is an extremely modern, high-tech industry, employing highly skilled workers. Some 4,000 people are directly employed in the industry and the work of thousands more depends on it. In recent times, the Kvaerner yard at Govan has built a prototype command ship for launching communication satellites into space and an oil drill test well vessel, for on-board drilling and processing. That is hardly smokestack—it is as high-tech as possible.

In his opening remarks, Henry McLeish asked for suggestions about centres of excellence. I suggest that there is a case for a centre of excellence in shipbuilding technology on the Clyde. I trust that the deputy minister will pass on that suggestion to the minister.

Shipbuilding is an industry under pressure. The Parliament needs to know what the Executive can do to protect and sustain shipbuilding and similar industries. The SNP amendment and John Swinney's remarks about the Parliament's lack of macro-economic powers go to the heart of the matter. I refer the deputy minister to an observation made by a Kvaerner spokesperson on 13 April 1999, the morning that Kvaerner announced its withdrawal from shipbuilding. The spokesman said that the strength of the pound had had a negative impact on our ability to be competitive. The question posed by John Swinney remains. What can the Executive do to protect the Scottish economy and its industries from inappropriate economic policies pursued by Westminster?

The experience of the shipyard workers in Govan during the campaign to secure a buyer for the yard did not do much to instil public confidence in the Scottish Executive, which was rather conspicuous by its absence. Ironically, there is a suggestion that it is the Executive that is responsible for the delays in GEC-Marconi's buyout of Kvaerner. Although we remain confident that the deal will go ahead, it would settle a few nerves in Glasgow if, in his summing up, the deputy minister reassured the workers of Kvaerner that the Scottish Executive is not responsible for any delays.

Finally, I want to refer to the external pressures faced by shipbuilding. The motion talks about global competition; the minister will be aware that the global competition faced by our shipbuilding industry is unfair. In particular, he will be aware of the allegations that South Korea is illegally subsidising its shipbuilding industry using International Monetary Fund loans to run its shipyards at a loss. That is particularly pertinent to the Govan yard as it bids for a Ministry of Defence contract, because one of the rival bidders intends to build its ferries in Korea. I would appreciate the minister's comments on that.

That matter will be pursued at the highest European levels, and rightly so. Last week, we heard about the Executive's record in pressing Scotland's case in Europe and how that record left much to be desired. The workers in shipyards in Scotland would appreciate the assurance of Scottish ministers that they will forcefully press the case for our shipbuilding industry in Europe.

We welcome the debate, but the Scottish people deserve to know that the Executive has the will,

and more crucial, the power to do everything that is necessary to sustain industries in Scotland and to build a vibrant economy that is fit for the next millennium.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:00:09.5896191+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C711883", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27073, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 359.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27074, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 360.0, "QuestionHeading": "North of Scotland Water Authority", "QuestionHeadingID": 27077, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 375.0, "DisplayOrder": 375.0, "ID": 27077, "ParentID": 27074 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 380.0, "ContributionID": 711883, "EditedText": "One of the key measures in the Water Industry Act 1999 was the establishment of the Water Industry Commissioner for Scotland. It will be his job to look independently—from a customer's point of view—at the investment programmes and charging of the three water authorities and to report to me. The report will then be considered by the Scottish Executive.", "EditedTextHTML": "One of the key measures in the Water Industry Act 1999 was the establishment of the Water Industry Commissioner for Scotland. It will be his job to look independently—from a customer's point of view—at the investment programmes and charging of the three water authorities and to report to me. The report will then be considered by the Scottish Executive.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:08.9207112+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C711886", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27073, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 359.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27074, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 360.0, "QuestionHeading": "Caledonian MacBrayne", "QuestionHeadingID": 27078, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 382.0, "DisplayOrder": 382.0, "ID": 27078, "ParentID": 27074 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 387.0, "ContributionID": 711886, "EditedText": "That is a commercial venture, and I know that people in George Lyon's constituency have a great interest in it. I am aware that Highlands and Islands Enterprise and the local council have provided money for a campaign to promote tourism in the area. The commercial decision is for CalMac to take. The service is not a lifeline ferry service, but I am aware of the interest in the route. I will be meeting Sea Containers on 2 December to discuss a range of issues.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is a commercial venture, and I know that people in George Lyon's constituency have a great interest in it. I am aware that Highlands and Islands Enterprise and the local council have provided money for a campaign to promote tourism in the area. The commercial decision is for CalMac to take. The service is not a lifeline ferry service, but I am aware of the interest in the route. I will be meeting Sea Containers on 2 December to discuss a range of issues.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:08.9207112+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1860E111P160C711789", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Grant, Rhoda", "ID": 1860, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Rhoda Grant", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Rhoda Grant (Highlands and Islands) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 179.0, "ContributionID": 711789, "EditedText": "I welcome the opportunity to debate the modernisation of the Scottish economy and the actions that we must take to ensure that that happens. On the one hand we have enterprise and on the other we have social justice. Since 1997, the Labour Government has shown that those two objectives are not mutually exclusive. Governments can encourage businesses to be competitive but also to seek social justice. Our society is changing beyond all recognition because of global forces. Global forces tie our economies together, which means that we cannot simply act alone. Access to information has greatly increased with the growth of the internet. Therefore, there needs to be an emphasis on giving people access to the sources of information enjoyed by many of us in the chamber. The Executive has emphasised the need for social inclusion; part of that is about having the opportunity to engage in the knowledge economy. There are barriers to economic growth, and it is our job to address them. Having talked to constituents, I believe that there is a distinct lack of knowledge about the initiatives that are already in place. As a consequence, people do not know how to access knowledge and services. Asking some people to draw up a business plan for a new enterprise can sometimes prevent them from putting a good idea into practice. We need facilitators based in communities to advise and assist people to develop their ideas into real initiatives. During the past 20 years, our economy has totally changed. There has been a decline in the manufacturing sector, leaving behind much pain and disenchantment for the communities that have been affected. In its place, the service sector and the information technology sector have grown. Those sectors, with their new demands, require a re-equipping of our work force so that people can work in them. In rural areas, we have seen the decline of traditional industries such as farming and fishing. Other types of employment are hard to find. With the innovations of modern technology, that can change. Indeed, it has already begun to do so. I agree with the minister that the University of the Highlands and Islands is an important development. It aims to bring knowledge closer to people, by creating small learning centres in remote communities. I cannot emphasise enough the importance of that development. Communities that have previously felt neglected will have the opportunity to take part in learning. The UHI will also give our young people the opportunity to stay at home to study, rather than having to leave. That raises the prospect of young people staying and studying in the Highlands, where they will, I hope, contribute to the economy. It will stop young people being cleared from the Highlands in search of education and opportunities. Through learning, we can equip our young people with the necessary skills to play an active role in the expansion of the Scottish economy. There is much to be done, and I am greatly encouraged that the Government recognises the specific needs of the Highlands and Islands. To ensure that progress continues, we need investment in infrastructure. Multinational companies that control the digital links must be made to address the social need of providing those services in rural areas. I urge the minister to hold talks with those organisations, to ensure that the infrastructure required does not stop in towns, but is continued into villages and crofting communities. If that happens, the geographical barrier need not be considered a major issue when it comes to equipping our rural work force with the necessary skills and knowledge to participate in the Scottish economy in the 21st century.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the opportunity to debate the modernisation of the Scottish economy and the actions that we must take to ensure that that happens.

On the one hand we have enterprise and on the other we have social justice. Since 1997, the Labour Government has shown that those two objectives are not mutually exclusive. Governments can encourage businesses to be competitive but also to seek social justice.

Our society is changing beyond all recognition because of global forces. Global forces tie our economies together, which means that we cannot simply act alone. Access to information has greatly increased with the growth of the internet. Therefore, there needs to be an emphasis on giving people access to the sources of information enjoyed by many of us in the chamber.

The Executive has emphasised the need for social inclusion; part of that is about having the opportunity to engage in the knowledge economy. There are barriers to economic growth, and it is our job to address them. Having talked to constituents, I believe that there is a distinct lack of knowledge about the initiatives that are already in place. As a consequence, people do not know how to access knowledge and services.

Asking some people to draw up a business plan for a new enterprise can sometimes prevent them from putting a good idea into practice. We need facilitators based in communities to advise and assist people to develop their ideas into real initiatives.

During the past 20 years, our economy has totally changed. There has been a decline in the manufacturing sector, leaving behind much pain and disenchantment for the communities that have been affected. In its place, the service sector and the information technology sector have grown. Those sectors, with their new demands, require a re-equipping of our work force so that people can work in them.

In rural areas, we have seen the decline of traditional industries such as farming and fishing. Other types of employment are hard to find. With the innovations of modern technology, that can change. Indeed, it has already begun to do so.

I agree with the minister that the University of the Highlands and Islands is an important development. It aims to bring knowledge closer to people, by creating small learning centres in remote communities. I cannot emphasise enough the importance of that development. Communities that have previously felt neglected will have the opportunity to take part in learning. The UHI will also give our young people the opportunity to stay at home to study, rather than having to leave. That raises the prospect of young people staying and studying in the Highlands, where they will, I hope, contribute to the economy. It will stop young people being cleared from the Highlands in search of education and opportunities. Through learning, we can equip our young people with the necessary skills to play an active role in the expansion of the Scottish economy.

There is much to be done, and I am greatly encouraged that the Government recognises the specific needs of the Highlands and Islands. To ensure that progress continues, we need investment in infrastructure. Multinational companies that control the digital links must be made to address the social need of providing those services in rural areas. I urge the minister to hold talks with those organisations, to ensure that the infrastructure required does not stop in towns, but is continued into villages and crofting communities. If that happens, the geographical barrier need not be considered a major issue when it comes to equipping our rural work force with the necessary skills and knowledge to participate in the Scottish economy in the 21st century.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:00:13.0585835+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1773E197P503C711971", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27094, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 518.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27095, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 519.0, "QuestionHeading": "Anti-social Neighbour Orders", "QuestionHeadingID": 27098, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 570.0, "DisplayOrder": 570.0, "ID": 27098, "ParentID": 27095 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hyslop, Fiona", "ID": 1773, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona Hyslop", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona Hyslop (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 577.0, "ContributionID": 711971, "EditedText": "The First Minister talked about \"active and current prejudice\". Does the minister agree that racial harassment is one of the worst forms of anti-social behaviour? Within her remit, does she plan to extend the monitoring of the operation of anti-social behaviour orders to such harassment?", "EditedTextHTML": "The First Minister talked about \"active and current prejudice\". Does the minister agree that racial harassment is one of the worst forms of anti-social behaviour? Within her remit, does she plan to extend the monitoring of the operation of anti-social behaviour orders to such harassment?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:00:21.9656621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2133E222P520C712066", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Domestic Water Supply (Bo'ness)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27101, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 764.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 764.0, "ID": 27101, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Matheson, Michael", "ID": 2133, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Matheson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Matheson (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 770.0, "ContributionID": 712066, "EditedText": "I welcome the opportunity to raise this important matter here this evening. I thank the minister and the First Minister for staying behind to debate this important issue. That is extremely gratifying, and I am sure that it will be noted by the constituents and residents of Bo'ness. I also welcome the residents who have come here this evening, along with local councillors who are concerned about the issue. Particularly, I would like to highlight the efforts of Mr Grant, who has pursued this issue for some 10 years. Unfortunately, as he is unwell, he cannot be with us this evening. I am sure that the problems of the domestic water supply in the Bo'ness area are new to most of the members who are here, but for the residents of Bo'ness and the Angus Road area, the issue has been a long-standing concern. Although both members and ministers may be unfamiliar with the issue, I am sure that they appreciate that it is important to have a safe and reliable water supply. It is something that we often take for granted. Unfortunately, in Scotland—or perhaps I should say fortunately, in Scotland—we do not suffer from a lack of water. We have so much of the stuff that we are in the proud position of being able to export it to our very good neighbours. However, the residents of Angus Road in Bo'ness have had their confidence in their domestic water supply undermined considerably. The authorities that are responsible for the water supply have been nothing short of secretive, and obstructive to residents who have tried to raise complaints. The problem did not start just a few months ago, or just last year. It started on 17 July 1989. At that point, Mr Grant in Angus Road contacted his district and regional councillor to complain about discoloration to his domestic water supply. Tests were undertaken by Central Regional Council district water and drainage department, which found that there was a high level of iron in his domestic supply. However, at that stage, the department did not consider the problem worthy of any action. The residents in the area continued to have persistent problems with their water supply and continued to complain to the authorities about it. Throughout that period, residents were particularly concerned that they were being exposed to heavy metals such as iron, manganese and aluminium in their household water supply. I emphasise that, at that point, the residents had no confirmed knowledge about whether they were being exposed to such heavy metals continuously, because they were unable to find out the facts of the case. However, they held a natural suspicion that they were being exposed to them at some point, if not every day. We must also recognise the uncertainty that the residents were experiencing at that time, which naturally eroded their confidence in their domestic water supply. We need only consider the incident that occurred at Camelford in 1988, where some 20 tonnes of aluminium sulphate were poured into the domestic water supply. Although that case is by no means comparable to the problems in Bo'ness, I draw members' attention to the study that was undertaken by the British Medical Association, the results of which were published last September. That study highlighted the fact that residents in the Camelford area suffered from health problems that included brain damage resulting from exposure to aluminium in the water supply. Aluminium is one of the metals that have been identified in the water supply to the Angus Road area of Bo'ness. I point out to the Minister for Transport and the Environment that Tony Blair, when in opposition, committed himself to a public inquiry on the Camelford incident. The residents of Camelford continue to wait for that public inquiry. I hope that the residents of Angus Road in Bo'ness will not have to wait as long for a review of what happened there. This week, I received a letter from Forth Valley Health Board, which referred to the finding of aluminium in water sample tests. It states: \"Dr Breslin has been told that around the time of the sample East of Scotland Water were scouring the local supply pipes, which could have resulted in raised iron and manganese levels. It would not explain the aluminium levels as East of Scotland Water have indicated to us that they were not using aluminium during the treatment of water supplies in that area at that time.\" In June last year, a resident had complained about continued discoloration of the domestic water supply. After persistent complaints, the tests to which Forth Valley Health Board referred were undertaken. The tests reveal that in one case there was a high level of aluminium, iron and manganese. The laboratory report states: \"The Iron, manganese and aluminium are above their respective ‘Significant Medical Risk Value'.\" Two further tests highlighted the fact that iron levels were also above the statutory limits. When one of the local residents contacted Falkirk Council environmental health department to request copies of the sample report, the council responded: \"we consider if you had been given a copy of the sample results you might have misrepresented them and caused yourself and others undue harm.\" East of Scotland Water took a further four samples at the end of last year. One of the residents requested a copy of the laboratory reports but was given copies of only two. The two he received showed that the water supply was fine. When East of Scotland Water was contacted for the other two, it said that the matter had been discussed with Falkirk Council and with Forth Valley Health Board and that there was no significant risk to public health. One of the residents then asked the Scottish Office for copies of the two missing reports. The next day an official from East of Scotland Water turned up at his door with the two reports, which— surprise, surprise—showed that there were levels of iron above the statutory limits. Once, one of the residents found freshwater shrimp in their water supply. Another filled his bath with water, drained it and used a magnet to collect the metal that was left. The whole affair has gone on for 10 years. I ask the minister to undertake a review of the matter for several reasons. It should establish whether East of Scotland Water and the other authorities have dealt with the matter adequately. Given the prolonged nature of the problem and the residents' lost confidence in East of Scotland Water and the other authorities, it should try to restore their commitment and residents' confidence in the service. It should ensure that no other community in Scotland has to suffer the same problem. I ask the minister to use this opportunity to draw a line under the issue by undertaking a review and by doing so to restore the confidence of residents of Angus Road in Bo'ness.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the opportunity to raise this important matter here this evening. I thank the minister and the First Minister for staying behind to debate this important issue. That is extremely gratifying, and I am sure that it will be noted by the constituents and residents of Bo'ness.

I also welcome the residents who have come here this evening, along with local councillors who are concerned about the issue. Particularly, I would like to highlight the efforts of Mr Grant, who has pursued this issue for some 10 years. Unfortunately, as he is unwell, he cannot be with us this evening.

I am sure that the problems of the domestic water supply in the Bo'ness area are new to most of the members who are here, but for the residents of Bo'ness and the Angus Road area, the issue has been a long-standing concern. Although both members and ministers may be unfamiliar with the issue, I am sure that they appreciate that it is important to have a safe and reliable water supply. It is something that we often take for granted.

Unfortunately, in Scotland—or perhaps I should say fortunately, in Scotland—we do not suffer from a lack of water. We have so much of the stuff that we are in the proud position of being able to export it to our very good neighbours. However, the residents of Angus Road in Bo'ness have had their confidence in their domestic water supply undermined considerably. The authorities that are responsible for the water supply have been nothing short of secretive, and obstructive to residents who have tried to raise complaints.

The problem did not start just a few months ago, or just last year. It started on 17 July 1989. At that point, Mr Grant in Angus Road contacted his

district and regional councillor to complain about discoloration to his domestic water supply. Tests were undertaken by Central Regional Council district water and drainage department, which found that there was a high level of iron in his domestic supply. However, at that stage, the department did not consider the problem worthy of any action.

The residents in the area continued to have persistent problems with their water supply and continued to complain to the authorities about it. Throughout that period, residents were particularly concerned that they were being exposed to heavy metals such as iron, manganese and aluminium in their household water supply.

I emphasise that, at that point, the residents had no confirmed knowledge about whether they were being exposed to such heavy metals continuously, because they were unable to find out the facts of the case. However, they held a natural suspicion that they were being exposed to them at some point, if not every day. We must also recognise the uncertainty that the residents were experiencing at that time, which naturally eroded their confidence in their domestic water supply.

We need only consider the incident that occurred at Camelford in 1988, where some 20 tonnes of aluminium sulphate were poured into the domestic water supply. Although that case is by no means comparable to the problems in Bo'ness, I draw members' attention to the study that was undertaken by the British Medical Association, the results of which were published last September. That study highlighted the fact that residents in the Camelford area suffered from health problems that included brain damage resulting from exposure to aluminium in the water supply.

Aluminium is one of the metals that have been identified in the water supply to the Angus Road area of Bo'ness. I point out to the Minister for Transport and the Environment that Tony Blair, when in opposition, committed himself to a public inquiry on the Camelford incident. The residents of Camelford continue to wait for that public inquiry. I hope that the residents of Angus Road in Bo'ness will not have to wait as long for a review of what happened there.

This week, I received a letter from Forth Valley Health Board, which referred to the finding of aluminium in water sample tests. It states:

\"Dr Breslin has been told that around the time of the sample East of Scotland Water were scouring the local supply pipes, which could have resulted in raised iron and manganese levels. It would not explain the aluminium levels as East of Scotland Water have indicated to us that they were not using aluminium during the treatment of water supplies in that area at that time.\"

In June last year, a resident had complained about continued discoloration of the domestic water supply. After persistent complaints, the tests to which Forth Valley Health Board referred were undertaken. The tests reveal that in one case there was a high level of aluminium, iron and manganese. The laboratory report states:

\"The Iron, manganese and aluminium are above their respective ‘Significant Medical Risk Value'.\"

Two further tests highlighted the fact that iron levels were also above the statutory limits.

When one of the local residents contacted Falkirk Council environmental health department to request copies of the sample report, the council responded:

\"we consider if you had been given a copy of the sample results you might have misrepresented them and caused yourself and others undue harm.\"

East of Scotland Water took a further four samples at the end of last year. One of the residents requested a copy of the laboratory reports but was given copies of only two. The two he received showed that the water supply was fine. When East of Scotland Water was contacted for the other two, it said that the matter had been discussed with Falkirk Council and with Forth Valley Health Board and that there was no significant risk to public health.

One of the residents then asked the Scottish Office for copies of the two missing reports. The next day an official from East of Scotland Water turned up at his door with the two reports, which— surprise, surprise—showed that there were levels of iron above the statutory limits. Once, one of the residents found freshwater shrimp in their water supply. Another filled his bath with water, drained it and used a magnet to collect the metal that was left.

The whole affair has gone on for 10 years. I ask the minister to undertake a review of the matter for several reasons. It should establish whether East of Scotland Water and the other authorities have dealt with the matter adequately. Given the prolonged nature of the problem and the residents' lost confidence in East of Scotland Water and the other authorities, it should try to restore their commitment and residents' confidence in the service. It should ensure that no other community in Scotland has to suffer the same problem. I ask the minister to use this opportunity to draw a line under the issue by undertaking a review and by doing so to restore the confidence of residents of Angus Road in Bo'ness.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:20.9827029+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2133E222P520C712076", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Domestic Water Supply (Bo'ness)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27101, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 764.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 764.0, "ID": 27101, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Matheson, Michael", "ID": 2133, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Matheson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Matheson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 795.0, "ContributionID": 712076, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:20.9827029+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1996E124P211C711724", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ethical Standards in Public Life Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27069, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27069, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAveety, Mr Frank", "ID": 1996, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Shettleston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Local Government", "SpeakerName": "Frank McAveety", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McAveety: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 41.0, "ContributionID": 711724, "EditedText": "If local authorities feel that it is appropriate to establish local standards committees, I encourage them to do so. However, we felt that the introduction of an all-Scotland standards commission would address any issues that were raised and would allow for consistency throughout the country. I recommend that local authorities consider establishing standards committees, and I understand that many authorities are doing so, which will reassure the public.", "EditedTextHTML": "If local authorities feel that it is appropriate to establish local standards committees, I encourage them to do so. However, we felt that the introduction of an all-Scotland standards commission would address any issues that were raised and would allow for consistency throughout the country. I recommend that local authorities consider establishing standards committees, and I understand that many authorities are doing so, which will reassure the public.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5295195+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711705", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Thursday 18 November 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 27068, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 27068, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 2.0, "ContributionID": 711705, "EditedText": "THE PRESIDING OFFICER opened the meeting at 09:30", "EditedTextHTML": "[THE PRESIDING OFFICER opened the meeting at 09:30]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1996E124P211C711707", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ethical Standards in Public Life Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27069, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27069, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAveety, Mr Frank", "ID": 1996, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Shettleston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Local Government", "SpeakerName": "Frank McAveety", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Local Government (Mr Frank McAveety): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 7.0, "ContributionID": 711707, "EditedText": "The last time I stood at this dispatch box was on the day after the opening of the Scottish Parliament. The opening day was a great day for Scotland and, for a brief moment last night, we nearly had another great day but that delight was snatched—again—from the Scottish supporters. I want to put on public record our appreciation that at least we were allowed to dream for 90 minutes last night. I turn to more interesting matters. I am delighted to announce to Parliament that the Executive is today publishing its draft bill on ethical standards in public life. This bill is one of the eight that Donald Dewar promised the Executive would introduce to Parliament in its first year. As with each of those bills, we are publishing a draft for wide consultation. We will take account of responses to the consultation before we introduce the bill to Parliament early in the new year. The title of the bill is significant and appropriate. We believe that the ethic of public service extends not only to elected councillors, but to those who serve on public bodies. As I visit councils across Scotland and deal with public bodies in carrying out my responsibilities as a minister and MSP, I am impressed by the continuing tradition of public service of which we are all proud. In June 1999 the First Minister said:\"the aim is to enhance the reputation of\"public service\"and to ensure a commitment to the highest standards\".— Official Report, 16 June 1999; Vol 1, c 407. Too often the reputation of the many has been undermined by the publicity given to the misdemeanours of the few who fail to come up to standard. High standards must not only be maintained, they must be seen to be maintained. We believe that there should be equity in the application of standards in public life. Our bill will ensure that equity and fairness are enshrined in those standards. Whether it be a council or a public body, there should be a shared agenda, with shared expectations and shared standards. Our starting point has been the Nolan committee on standards in public life, but our consultation so far has taken place within Scotland and we have produced a bill that is shaped and influenced by Scottish traditions and circumstances. There will be an opportunity to scrutinise the draft bill in full detail. Today I will identify the key elements of the bill. In essence, the bill will provide for the introduction of new codes of conduct for local authority councillors and members of public bodies. It will give councils and public bodies a duty to help their members to comply with their code. It will also establish a standards commission to oversee the new framework and deal with alleged breaches of the codes. On the codes of conduct, we recognise that the introduction of a new ethical framework needs to relate to the nature of the organisations that it will apply to. We are mindful of the fact that one is an elected body and the other is an appointed body. We believe that our bill is sufficiently flexible to address those concerns. The content of the codes will require careful consideration. Local government will have the opportunity to shape and influence its code before it comes to Parliament for approval. The bill provides for that. Public bodies form a diverse group. Each has its own constitution and functions and will need a code tailored to that. Accordingly, for those bodies the bill will establish a new statutory model code for the members of public bodies and will require each body to adopt a version of that code that is suitable and customised for its circumstances. The central change is that the model code, shaped by the Parliament, will be addressed by those public bodies within three months and will also require ministerial approval. The bill will cover, initially at least, devolved executive public bodies which have their own staff and budget, which operate solely in Scotland and which have devolved functions only or a mixture of devolved and reserved functions. Those include executive bodies, the national health service bodies and the water authorities. The public will have the right to know—for the first time in any real way—members' interests within councils and public bodies. Members' outside interests and influences will be made transparent. Adherence to the code will be a personal responsibility for each councillor and member of a public body. However, councils and public bodies also have an important role to play in assisting their members to uphold the code; for example, by providing clear and effective guidance, training and development, to ensure that the code is upheld. The bill will place a duty on each council and each body to promote its members' observance of high standards of conduct and to assist them to observe their code of conduct. We welcome the creation of local standards committees and recognise that they can assist in the maintenance of public confidence in elected members in councils. We welcome those initiatives that signal that a council is taking responsibility for standards. In fact, I pioneered one of the first such initiatives in Scotland, in the most difficult of circumstances. The fact that all- party consent was achieved on that in Glasgow—a unique achievement, given the politics of that city—indicates the importance of the good ethic of public service for elected members. We also consider it essential, however, for the public and members of councils to have confidence that every allegation will be subject to a consistent process and will be dealt with thoroughly and fairly. If that confidence is to be achieved, all allegations of breaches of the code should be dealt with by an entirely independent body. The bill will therefore provide for the establishment of a standards commission for Scotland, which will have responsibility for dealing with all allegations of breaches of the codes. Never again do we want the conduct of an individual to affect the reputation of an institution or a council. Our public bodies should have robust and clear codes that have public confidence. Those codes should be applied clearly and effectively. It is not for those who run public bodies, as members or officials, to become the personal gatekeeper of the conduct of an individual in their organisation. It is for the establishment of the standards commission to create an authoritative and independent scrutiny of conduct in all public bodies. In the new Scotland, with the creation of the Parliament, we are beginning the modernisation of our democratic structures. The Parliament is not the end but the beginning of that process. The standards commission will be the gatekeeper to the establishment of high standards and best practice in public bodies in Scotland. We will ensure that investigations of alleged breaches of the code will be carried out swiftly and accurately. It is important for the individuals concerned to know that the allegations will be dealt with quickly, to reassure the public and to clarify the personal circumstances for that individual. An independent person—the chief investigating officer—will be responsible for investigating alleged breaches of the code and reporting to the commission. Where appropriate, the chief investigating officer will be able to refer matters to another body; for example, the ombudsman, an auditor or, in the most extreme cases, the police. For local government, if the commission finds that a councillor has breached the code, it will decide what sanction would be appropriate. Sanctions may range from censure of the individual concerned to temporary suspension, or, in cases of significant violation, disqualification of the individual from being, or being elected, a member of a local authority for up to five years. The chief investigating officer will also investigate alleged or suspected breaches of the code by members of relevant public bodies and will report such breaches to the standards commission. Sanctions open to the appointing body would be similar to those proposed for the local councillors, ranging from censure to suspension and, in extreme cases, removal from public office in public bodies. Those are the central provisions of the bill: a commitment to equity and fairness; a commitment to a Scotland with high expectations of public service; and a commitment that the citizen is at the forefront of our considerations. How we serve our citizens and reflect their needs and aspirations is at the core of our legislative programme. We can lead Scotland in Britain in the development of ethical standards in public life. We can do the same for equality and social inclusion. We have an opportunity, in the bill, to address the commitment we made in our programme to building a Scotland on the principles of social justice and fairness—a Scotland of equal opportunity and inclusion. We intend to repeal section 2A of the Local Government Act 1986, commonly known as section 28 of the Local Government Act 1988. Our view is that that legislation was, and remains, ill conceived. We believe that it has served to legitimise intolerance and prejudice. It has acted as an unhelpful constraint on the ability of local authorities to develop best practice in sex education and to tackle bullying in schools. It has also reduced the capacity—a central capacity, in my opinion—of local authorities to respond to the needs and aspirations of the people they serve, which includes the gay and lesbian community and communities throughout Scotland. We believe that repeal of section 2A will enable the gay and lesbian community to be full participants in the building of a socially diverse and equitable Scotland. Regarding education, we believe repeal of section 2A will assist in allowing schools to provide a balanced, coherent and responsible approach to the nurture of personal and social development. I have more than 13 years' experience of teaching in Glasgow and beyond, and I believe that teachers will continue to develop in a sensitive manner, as good professionals do, an understanding of personal values and respect for others of different creed, different race and different sexual orientation. The issue of sexual orientation is also central to tackling the problems of bullying that have emerged in schools. At present, many professionals fear the possible legal consequences of tackling head on issues such as homophobic bullying. Repeal of section 2A will enable teachers to do that. It will also help voluntary groups who work within the gay and lesbian community to work with councils and it will help them to feel that when they make applications, those will be considered according to the quality of the group's work rather than according to sexual orientation. We believe that our bill will enhance and reinforce high standards in Scottish public life. We believe that it will create a Scotland that puts citizens and public interest first. It will address the unfairness of the restrictive legislation in section 2A and it will show that Scotland is leading Britain in ensuring that those who govern do so by the consent of the governed, and that the principles of fairness, transparency and social justice are at the heart of our programme for this Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "The last time I stood at this dispatch box was on the day after the opening of the Scottish Parliament. The opening day was a great day for Scotland and, for a brief moment last night, we nearly had another great day but that delight was snatched—again—from the Scottish supporters. I want to put on public record our appreciation that at least we were allowed to dream for 90 minutes last night.

I turn to more interesting matters. I am delighted to announce to Parliament that the Executive is today publishing its draft bill on ethical standards in public life. This bill is one of the eight that Donald Dewar promised the Executive would introduce to Parliament in its first year. As with each of those bills, we are publishing a draft for wide consultation. We will take account of responses to the consultation before we introduce the bill to Parliament early in the new year.

The title of the bill is significant and appropriate. We believe that the ethic of public service extends not only to elected councillors, but to those who serve on public bodies. As I visit councils across Scotland and deal with public bodies in carrying out my responsibilities as a minister and MSP, I am impressed by the continuing tradition of public service of which we are all proud.

In June 1999 the First Minister said:

\"the aim is to enhance the reputation of\"

public service

\"and to ensure a commitment to the highest standards\".— [Official Report, 16 June 1999; Vol 1, c 407.]

Too often the reputation of the many has been undermined by the publicity given to the misdemeanours of the few who fail to come up to standard. High standards must not only be maintained, they must be seen to be maintained.

We believe that there should be equity in the application of standards in public life. Our bill will ensure that equity and fairness are enshrined in those standards. Whether it be a council or a public body, there should be a shared agenda, with shared expectations and shared standards.

Our starting point has been the Nolan committee on standards in public life, but our consultation so far has taken place within Scotland and we have produced a bill that is shaped and influenced by Scottish traditions and circumstances.

There will be an opportunity to scrutinise the draft bill in full detail. Today I will identify the key elements of the bill. In essence, the bill will provide for the introduction of new codes of conduct for local authority councillors and members of public bodies. It will give councils and public bodies a duty to help their members to comply with their code. It will also establish a standards commission to oversee the new framework and deal with alleged breaches of the codes.

On the codes of conduct, we recognise that the introduction of a new ethical framework needs to relate to the nature of the organisations that it will apply to. We are mindful of the fact that one is an elected body and the other is an appointed body. We believe that our bill is sufficiently flexible to address those concerns. The content of the codes will require careful consideration. Local government will have the opportunity to shape and influence its code before it comes to Parliament for approval. The bill provides for that.

Public bodies form a diverse group. Each has its own constitution and functions and will need a code tailored to that. Accordingly, for those bodies the bill will establish a new statutory model code for the members of public bodies and will require each body to adopt a version of that code that is suitable and customised for its circumstances. The central change is that the model code, shaped by the Parliament, will be addressed by those public bodies within three months and will also require ministerial approval.

The bill will cover, initially at least, devolved executive public bodies which have their own staff and budget, which operate solely in Scotland and which have devolved functions only or a mixture of devolved and reserved functions. Those include executive bodies, the national health service bodies and the water authorities.

The public will have the right to know—for the first time in any real way—members' interests within councils and public bodies. Members' outside interests and influences will be made transparent.

Adherence to the code will be a personal responsibility for each councillor and member of a public body. However, councils and public bodies

also have an important role to play in assisting their members to uphold the code; for example, by providing clear and effective guidance, training and development, to ensure that the code is upheld. The bill will place a duty on each council and each body to promote its members' observance of high standards of conduct and to assist them to observe their code of conduct.

We welcome the creation of local standards committees and recognise that they can assist in the maintenance of public confidence in elected members in councils. We welcome those initiatives that signal that a council is taking responsibility for standards. In fact, I pioneered one of the first such initiatives in Scotland, in the most difficult of circumstances. The fact that all- party consent was achieved on that in Glasgow—a unique achievement, given the politics of that city—indicates the importance of the good ethic of public service for elected members.

We also consider it essential, however, for the public and members of councils to have confidence that every allegation will be subject to a consistent process and will be dealt with thoroughly and fairly. If that confidence is to be achieved, all allegations of breaches of the code should be dealt with by an entirely independent body. The bill will therefore provide for the establishment of a standards commission for Scotland, which will have responsibility for dealing with all allegations of breaches of the codes.

Never again do we want the conduct of an individual to affect the reputation of an institution or a council. Our public bodies should have robust and clear codes that have public confidence. Those codes should be applied clearly and effectively. It is not for those who run public bodies, as members or officials, to become the personal gatekeeper of the conduct of an individual in their organisation. It is for the establishment of the standards commission to create an authoritative and independent scrutiny of conduct in all public bodies. In the new Scotland, with the creation of the Parliament, we are beginning the modernisation of our democratic structures. The Parliament is not the end but the beginning of that process. The standards commission will be the gatekeeper to the establishment of high standards and best practice in public bodies in Scotland.

We will ensure that investigations of alleged breaches of the code will be carried out swiftly and accurately. It is important for the individuals concerned to know that the allegations will be dealt with quickly, to reassure the public and to clarify the personal circumstances for that individual. An independent person—the chief investigating officer—will be responsible for investigating alleged breaches of the code and reporting to the commission. Where appropriate, the chief investigating officer will be able to refer matters to another body; for example, the ombudsman, an auditor or, in the most extreme cases, the police.

For local government, if the commission finds that a councillor has breached the code, it will decide what sanction would be appropriate. Sanctions may range from censure of the individual concerned to temporary suspension, or, in cases of significant violation, disqualification of the individual from being, or being elected, a member of a local authority for up to five years.

The chief investigating officer will also investigate alleged or suspected breaches of the code by members of relevant public bodies and will report such breaches to the standards commission. Sanctions open to the appointing body would be similar to those proposed for the local councillors, ranging from censure to suspension and, in extreme cases, removal from public office in public bodies.

Those are the central provisions of the bill: a commitment to equity and fairness; a commitment to a Scotland with high expectations of public service; and a commitment that the citizen is at the forefront of our considerations. How we serve our citizens and reflect their needs and aspirations is at the core of our legislative programme. We can lead Scotland in Britain in the development of ethical standards in public life. We can do the same for equality and social inclusion.

We have an opportunity, in the bill, to address the commitment we made in our programme to building a Scotland on the principles of social justice and fairness—a Scotland of equal opportunity and inclusion. We intend to repeal section 2A of the Local Government Act 1986, commonly known as section 28 of the Local Government Act 1988.

Our view is that that legislation was, and remains, ill conceived. We believe that it has served to legitimise intolerance and prejudice. It has acted as an unhelpful constraint on the ability of local authorities to develop best practice in sex education and to tackle bullying in schools. It has also reduced the capacity—a central capacity, in my opinion—of local authorities to respond to the needs and aspirations of the people they serve, which includes the gay and lesbian community and communities throughout Scotland. We believe that repeal of section 2A will enable the gay and lesbian community to be full participants in the building of a socially diverse and equitable Scotland.

Regarding education, we believe repeal of section 2A will assist in allowing schools to provide a balanced, coherent and responsible approach to

the nurture of personal and social development. I have more than 13 years' experience of teaching in Glasgow and beyond, and I believe that teachers will continue to develop in a sensitive manner, as good professionals do, an understanding of personal values and respect for others of different creed, different race and different sexual orientation.

The issue of sexual orientation is also central to tackling the problems of bullying that have emerged in schools. At present, many professionals fear the possible legal consequences of tackling head on issues such as homophobic bullying. Repeal of section 2A will enable teachers to do that. It will also help voluntary groups who work within the gay and lesbian community to work with councils and it will help them to feel that when they make applications, those will be considered according to the quality of the group's work rather than according to sexual orientation.

We believe that our bill will enhance and reinforce high standards in Scottish public life. We believe that it will create a Scotland that puts citizens and public interest first. It will address the unfairness of the restrictive legislation in section 2A and it will show that Scotland is leading Britain in ensuring that those who govern do so by the consent of the governed, and that the principles of fairness, transparency and social justice are at the heart of our programme for this Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1996E124P211C711710", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ethical Standards in Public Life Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27069, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27069, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAveety, Mr Frank", "ID": 1996, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Shettleston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Local Government", "SpeakerName": "Frank McAveety", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McAveety: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 13.0, "ContributionID": 711710, "EditedText": "I thank Kenneth Gibson for those questions. The first question was about consideration of the selection of the chief investigating officer. That officer will be someone who understands the workings of public bodies in local authorities throughout Scotland. It will be someone who has credibility in the role that he or she must play and who will set examples on the key issues that will underpin the standards commission. I will welcome suggestions from all members of all parties as to how we can arrive at a firm conclusion regarding the criteria that we want to apply. The second question was about the functioning of the standards commission. The establishment of standards committees in some authorities has helped to address issues of public concern in those local authority areas. The fact that there was all-party consensus in the example with which we are most familiar signifies that we in public office recognise that a small minority can affect the majority who execute their public duties with great diligence and effort. It is important that we learn from that experience when we set up a standards commission. That experience indicates that there should be clear guidance and codes of conduct. We must also make it clear that all are responsible for their actions and that effective sanctions will be applied to ensure minimisation of misbehaviour. The establishment of standards committees has led to a significant diminution of the criticisms levelled at local authority members in many parts of Scotland. That is testimony to the fact that we should have such standards committees. I also welcome Mr Gibson's comments regarding section 2A and I agree with his remarks relating to the repeal that we are putting forward. It is a pragmatic response to the issue of developing understanding and knowledge of personal and social development in schools and it will help to ensure that all participants feel that they have a role to play. We do not recognise the caricature that some have drawn of the issue of repeal of section 2A.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank Kenneth Gibson for those questions. The first question was about consideration of the selection of the chief investigating officer. That officer will be someone who understands the workings of public bodies in local authorities throughout Scotland. It will be someone who has credibility in the role that he or she must play and who will set examples on the key issues that will underpin the standards commission. I will welcome suggestions from all members of all parties as to how we can arrive at a firm conclusion regarding the criteria that we want to apply.

The second question was about the functioning of the standards commission. The establishment of standards committees in some authorities has helped to address issues of public concern in those local authority areas. The fact that there was all-party consensus in the example with which we are most familiar signifies that we in public office recognise that a small minority can affect the majority who execute their public duties with great diligence and effort. It is important that we learn from that experience when we set up a standards commission. That experience indicates that there should be clear guidance and codes of conduct. We must also make it clear that all are responsible for their actions and that effective sanctions will be applied to ensure minimisation of misbehaviour. The establishment of standards committees has led to a significant diminution of the criticisms levelled at local authority members in many parts of Scotland. That is testimony to the fact that we should have such standards committees.

I also welcome Mr Gibson's comments regarding section 2A and I agree with his remarks relating to the repeal that we are putting forward. It is a pragmatic response to the issue of developing understanding and knowledge of personal and social development in schools and it will help to ensure that all participants feel that they have a role to play. We do not recognise the caricature that some have drawn of the issue of repeal of section 2A.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1996E124P211C711716", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ethical Standards in Public Life Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27069, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27069, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAveety, Mr Frank", "ID": 1996, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Shettleston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Local Government", "SpeakerName": "Frank McAveety", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McAveety: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 25.0, "ContributionID": 711716, "EditedText": "We hope that, at the various stages of the bill's scrutiny, those matters will be addressed in a coherent and sensible way. It strikes me that the way in which someone operates in one public body cannot be separated from the way in which they operate in another. If someone errs in their behaviour in one public body, that can impact on their credibility within another. It must be recognised, however, that one body is elected and the other is appointed. The chief investigating officer's recommendation should be passed on to the appropriate public body. If action is not taken by that body, the matter could be raised before the Parliament for further consideration. There should be equity in all public bodies, whether they are local authorities or quangos, which Mr Kerr mentioned. My experience in local government leads me to believe that people would welcome that, as part of a shared agenda of high public standards for both elected and appointed officials.", "EditedTextHTML": "We hope that, at the various stages of the bill's scrutiny, those matters will be addressed in a coherent and sensible way. It strikes me that the way in which someone operates in one public body cannot be separated from the way in which they operate in another. If someone errs in their behaviour in one public body, that can impact on their credibility within another. It must be recognised, however, that one body is elected and the other is appointed. The chief investigating officer's recommendation should be passed on to the appropriate public body. If action is not taken by that body, the matter could be raised before the Parliament for further consideration.

There should be equity in all public bodies, whether they are local authorities or quangos, which Mr Kerr mentioned. My experience in local government leads me to believe that people would welcome that, as part of a shared agenda of high public standards for both elected and appointed officials.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1996E124P211C711712", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ethical Standards in Public Life Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27069, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27069, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAveety, Mr Frank", "ID": 1996, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Shettleston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Local Government", "SpeakerName": "Frank McAveety", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McAveety: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 17.0, "ContributionID": 711712, "EditedText": "I thank Mr McLetchie for his breathtaking arrogance in lecturing anyone in this chamber on standards in public life, given the Tories' record at Westminster. He claimed that he is willing to listen to the people of Scotland. The people of Scotland made their point about the conduct of the Conservatives in public office quite clear at the election in 1997. All parties consented to the setting up of a standards committee in Glasgow City Council. That was not a priority of an individual in the majority group on the council. John Young, who is now a Conservative member of the Parliament, welcomed the initiative as a remarkable breath of fresh air in municipal government in Glasgow. I welcomed John's support for that initiative because he recognised it for what it was: an effort to ensure that there are high standards applied to public life and that people are reassured that that is done. That underpins what we have laid out in the bill. The ombudsman is not an enforcer and it would, therefore, be inappropriate to put the ombudsman in the role that we foresee for the chief investigating officer of the standards commission. The Accounts Commission looks at the finances of local government. If there are grey areas in the bill, those issues should be addressed at the committee stage of the bill and we will welcome suggestions at that stage. David then moved on to repeal of section 2A. I do not think that Mr McLetchie's use of the phrase \"perverse priorities\" was a Freudian slip. It was deliberate use of language to suggest and connote something that is not necessarily the case. The truth is that evidence indicates that teachers are inhibited, by the existence of section 2A, from giving the full professional advice that is appropriate to particular circumstances. In my teaching career, I have been prohibited from intervening and assisting youngsters in understanding their own complex personal and social development. I would not wish that on any future children in Scotland. I hope that the teaching profession will have the opportunity to operate as it always has in Scotland, in a sensitive and understanding manner, and to intervene in these matters. Parental consent is essential for any programme for personal and social development. There is nothing in the bill, or in the intentions behind it, which will not allow parents to be involved in the negotiation and consultation with teachers and care agencies on the way in which programmes for personal and social development are delivered. The issue is to put on a relatively equal footing all approaches to life, and to support people in our communities throughout Scotland. I do not think that that is unreasonable. I remember the point of view that was expressed by William Hague only three or four months ago, when he said that caring Conservatism was about to re-emerge. It is a pity that that point of view has not yet permeated the Scottish Tory party.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank Mr McLetchie for his breathtaking arrogance in lecturing anyone in this chamber on standards in public life, given the Tories' record at Westminster. He claimed that he is willing to listen to the people of Scotland. The people of Scotland made their point about the conduct of the Conservatives in public office quite clear at the election in 1997.

All parties consented to the setting up of a standards committee in Glasgow City Council. That was not a priority of an individual in the majority group on the council. John Young, who is now a Conservative member of the Parliament, welcomed the initiative as a remarkable breath of fresh air in municipal government in Glasgow. I welcomed John's support for that initiative because he recognised it for what it was: an effort to ensure that there are high standards applied to public life and that people are reassured that that is done. That underpins what we have laid out in the bill.

The ombudsman is not an enforcer and it would, therefore, be inappropriate to put the ombudsman in the role that we foresee for the chief investigating officer of the standards commission. The Accounts Commission looks at the finances of local government. If there are grey areas in the bill, those issues should be addressed at the committee stage of the bill and we will welcome suggestions at that stage.

David then moved on to repeal of section 2A. I do not think that Mr McLetchie's use of the phrase \"perverse priorities\" was a Freudian slip. It was deliberate use of language to suggest and connote something that is not necessarily the case. The truth is that evidence indicates that teachers are inhibited, by the existence of section 2A, from giving the full professional advice that is appropriate to particular circumstances. In my teaching career, I have been prohibited from intervening and assisting youngsters in understanding their own complex personal and social development. I would not wish that on any future children in Scotland. I hope that the teaching profession will have the opportunity to operate as it always has in Scotland, in a sensitive and understanding manner, and to intervene in these matters.

Parental consent is essential for any programme for personal and social development. There is nothing in the bill, or in the intentions behind it, which will not allow parents to be involved in the negotiation and consultation with teachers and care agencies on the way in which programmes for personal and social development are delivered. The issue is to put on a relatively equal footing all approaches to life, and to support people in our communities throughout Scotland. I do not think that that is unreasonable. I remember the point of view that was expressed by William Hague only three or four months ago, when he said that caring Conservatism was about to re-emerge. It is a pity that that point of view has not yet permeated the Scottish Tory party.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1908E166P251C711715", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ethical Standards in Public Life Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27069, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27069, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Kerr, Andy", "ID": 1908, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Kilbride" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andy Kerr", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Andy Kerr (East Kilbride) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 23.0, "ContributionID": 711715, "EditedText": "I welcome the minister's announcement, particularly on the repeal of section 2A. I ask for further explanation of the rationale behind the inclusion of quangos. If someone who is a member of both a local authority and a quango is found guilty by the local authority, how does that affect their membership of the quango?", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the minister's announcement, particularly on the repeal of section 2A. I ask for further explanation of the rationale behind the inclusion of quangos. If someone who is a member of both a local authority and a quango is found guilty by the local authority, how does that affect their membership of the quango?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1996E124P211C711718", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ethical Standards in Public Life Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27069, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27069, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAveety, Mr Frank", "ID": 1996, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Shettleston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Local Government", "SpeakerName": "Frank McAveety", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McAveety: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 29.0, "ContributionID": 711718, "EditedText": "The role of the organisations that Alex Neil mentions has already featured in other discussions that have taken place in the Parliament. The form and approach that I might have undertaken in the context of the administration in Glasgow would not necessarily be welcomed in this Parliament. Therefore, I would not necessarily want to use that council as a slide rule. It would, however, be interesting to find out how decisions could be executed fairly quickly, in the face of opposition. Two other issues are important. First, we should have a debate on the role of the standards commission. That, and other aspects of the bill, might be influenced through discussions in the Local Government Committee. I welcome contributions on that issue. I have no fixed view; therefore that could be developed over the next two or three months. Secondly, as LECs are private companies, they are excluded from the provisions of the bill, although certain regulatory responsibilities may intervene in the issues that Alex Neil has raised. That matter might be considered by the appropriate committees of the Parliament. However, we believe that this bill will address those concerns as far as they affect the bodies for which we have responsibility: local councils and other public bodies.", "EditedTextHTML": "The role of the organisations that Alex Neil mentions has already featured in other discussions that have taken place in the Parliament.

The form and approach that I might have undertaken in the context of the administration in Glasgow would not necessarily be welcomed in this Parliament. Therefore, I would not necessarily want to use that council as a slide rule. It would, however, be interesting to find out how decisions could be executed fairly quickly, in the face of opposition.

Two other issues are important. First, we should have a debate on the role of the standards commission. That, and other aspects of the bill,

might be influenced through discussions in the Local Government Committee. I welcome contributions on that issue. I have no fixed view; therefore that could be developed over the next two or three months.

Secondly, as LECs are private companies, they are excluded from the provisions of the bill, although certain regulatory responsibilities may intervene in the issues that Alex Neil has raised. That matter might be considered by the appropriate committees of the Parliament. However, we believe that this bill will address those concerns as far as they affect the bodies for which we have responsibility: local councils and other public bodies.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C711727", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning (Henry McLeish): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 49.0, "ContributionID": 711727, "EditedText": "I hope that you will not mind, Sir David, if I reinforce in passing Frank McAveety's comments. The late, great Bill Shankly, when asked whether a football match was a matter of life or death, said that it was far more important than that. That is why football is still important for the Scottish psyche. The Parliament should record its genuine appreciation of the dignity, style and flair of the Scottish football team, as well as the fact that we simply out-classed the English at Wembley yesterday. We won the battle; unfortunately we did not win the war. Nevertheless, it is important to recognise that we have the best fans in the world. Some day the team will have the success that it and the fans richly deserve. This Parliament should record a big thank you to Craig Brown, the team and the back-room staff, who made us very proud of yesterday's result.", "EditedTextHTML": "I hope that you will not mind, Sir David, if I reinforce in passing Frank McAveety's comments. The late, great Bill Shankly, when asked whether a football match was a matter of life or death, said that it was far more important than that. That is why football is still important for the Scottish psyche.

The Parliament should record its genuine appreciation of the dignity, style and flair of the Scottish football team, as well as the fact that we simply out-classed the English at Wembley yesterday. We won the battle; unfortunately we did not win the war. Nevertheless, it is important to recognise that we have the best fans in the world. Some day the team will have the success that it and the fans richly deserve. This Parliament should record a big thank you to Craig Brown, the team and the back-room staff, who made us very proud of yesterday's result.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711729", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 53.0, "ContributionID": 711729, "EditedText": "I hope that this exchange will be brief. It is all out of order, but very interesting.", "EditedTextHTML": "I hope that this exchange will be brief. It is all out of order, but very interesting.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C711734", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 63.0, "ContributionID": 711734, "EditedText": "I am happy to confirm that what John Swinney said is correct. The chancellor introduced a number of excellent measures on entrepreneurship, on small businesses and on the enterprise economy, as well as incentives for research. I will be happy to show the report to John Swinney when we receive it. We are now looking at the proposals to ensure that they are fine tuned for Scotland. In other areas, we are developing our own policies and initiatives and we have the funding to do so. It is important that the interface between what we do here and London is close so that Scotland gets the benefit of both.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am happy to confirm that what John Swinney said is correct. The chancellor introduced a number of excellent measures on entrepreneurship, on small businesses and on the enterprise economy, as well as incentives for research. I will be happy to show the report to John Swinney when we receive it. We are now looking at the proposals to ensure that they are fine tuned for Scotland. In other areas, we are developing our own policies and initiatives and we have the funding to do so. It is important that the interface between what we do here and London is close so that Scotland gets the benefit of both.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C711758", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Goldie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 113.0, "ContributionID": 711758, "EditedText": "I favour low taxation—Mr Sheridan will have his reasons for disputing that that is a respectable agenda. If new Labour has lightened the corporate tax burden, that is because it stole the idea from the Conservative manifesto, which I applaud. The minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer must consider ways of further lightening the burden of tax on business. I say that as someone who believes in the union but sees no paradox in discussing macro-economic matters in this chamber. An escalation of business tax equals regression, lack of growth and recession. The omens under new Labour—despite Mr Sheridan's comments—are not auspicious.", "EditedTextHTML": "I favour low taxation—Mr Sheridan will have his reasons for disputing that that is a respectable agenda. If new Labour has lightened the corporate tax burden, that is because it stole the idea from the Conservative manifesto, which I applaud.

The minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer must consider ways of further lightening the burden of tax on business. I say that as someone who believes in the union but sees no paradox in discussing macro-economic matters in this chamber. An escalation of business tax equals regression, lack of growth and recession. The omens under new Labour—despite Mr Sheridan's comments—are not auspicious.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C711759", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 115.0, "ContributionID": 711759, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1821E295P538C711743", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Mrs Margaret", "ID": 1821, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Moray" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Margaret Ewing (Moray) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 81.0, "ContributionID": 711743, "EditedText": "Have all the University of the Highlands and Islands courses been ratified? If not, can we expect an early decision on any of them—they affect areas in my constituency?", "EditedTextHTML": "Have all the University of the Highlands and Islands courses been ratified? If not, can we expect an early decision on any of them—they affect areas in my constituency?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C711755", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 107.0, "ContributionID": 711755, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way? Sorry, I mean the member.", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way? Sorry, I mean the member.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C711756", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Goldie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 109.0, "ContributionID": 711756, "EditedText": "Married one week, promoted the next. Heady stuff, Mr Sheridan.", "EditedTextHTML": "Married one week, promoted the next. Heady stuff, Mr Sheridan.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C711765", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 127.0, "ContributionID": 711765, "EditedText": "Will Miss Goldie give way? I ask without offering compliments.", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Miss Goldie give way? I ask without offering compliments.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C711766", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Goldie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 129.0, "ContributionID": 711766, "EditedText": "Of course I give way.", "EditedTextHTML": "Of course I give way.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C711768", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Goldie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 133.0, "ContributionID": 711768, "EditedText": "I welcome a very helpful intervention by the minister, which well illustrates the point that I seek to make. In entrepreneurial terms, I wish that there were more Brian Souters and Ann Gloags in Scotland. We do not have enough of them; that is why we cannot generate self-expansion in the enterprise base, which is what we desperately need. Whatever happens, we must recognise that the number of businesses does not increase because Government so commands. Yes, I applaud the minister's initiative of seeking to have 100,000 new businesses by 2009. However, in terms of a Government edict, that may sound praiseworthy, but it will not happen unless some dramatic changes begin to take place in Scotland. I genuinely believe that we have an opportunity to do things for Scotland—we should seize it. I move amendment S1M-296.1, to leave out from \"initiatives\" to end and insert: \"improving our education system and our transport infrastructure; and in particular urges the Scottish Executive to promote an expanded enterprise base by encouraging a new culture of risk management in Scotland to enhance the opportunities for new and young entrepreneurs.\"", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome a very helpful intervention by the minister, which well illustrates the point that I seek to make. In entrepreneurial terms, I wish that there were more Brian Souters and Ann Gloags in Scotland. We do not have enough of them; that is why we cannot generate self-expansion in the enterprise base, which is what we desperately need.

Whatever happens, we must recognise that the number of businesses does not increase because Government so commands. Yes, I applaud the minister's initiative of seeking to have 100,000 new businesses by 2009. However, in terms of a Government edict, that may sound praiseworthy, but it will not happen unless some dramatic changes begin to take place in Scotland.

I genuinely believe that we have an opportunity to do things for Scotland—we should seize it. I move amendment S1M-296.1, to leave out from \"initiatives\" to end and insert:

\"improving our education system and our transport infrastructure; and in particular urges the Scottish Executive to promote an expanded enterprise base by encouraging a new culture of risk management in Scotland to enhance the opportunities for new and young entrepreneurs.\"

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C711776", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 150.0, "ContributionID": 711776, "EditedText": "Will the Liberal Democrats support those initiatives if the minister introduces them?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the Liberal Democrats support those initiatives if the minister introduces them?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C711777", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 152.0, "ContributionID": 711777, "EditedText": "We need clarification of what they mean for Scotland and how much discretion we have in implementing them.", "EditedTextHTML": "We need clarification of what they mean for Scotland and how much discretion we have in implementing them.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2090E83P266C711781", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAllion, Mr John", "ID": 2090, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dundee East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John McAllion", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr John McAllion (Dundee East) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 161.0, "ContributionID": 711781, "EditedText": "My hearing is not as good as it used to be, but I thought that I heard Miss Goldie say that the Tory amendment did not seek to slaver fulsome praise all over the Executive. If she did say that, I commend her for using such a good Scots word. I remind her that it is not the role of any member of this Parliament, irrespective of party, to slaver all over the Scottish Executive. I am sure that my party would be disappointed were I to seek to slaver over the Executive.", "EditedTextHTML": "My hearing is not as good as it used to be, but I thought that I heard Miss Goldie say that the Tory amendment did not seek to slaver fulsome praise all over the Executive. If she did say that, I commend her for using such a good Scots word. I remind her that it is not the role of any member of this Parliament, irrespective of party, to slaver all over the Scottish Executive. I am sure that my party would be disappointed were I to seek to slaver over the Executive.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C711782", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Goldie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 163.0, "ContributionID": 711782, "EditedText": "There is some confusion over who is slavering over whom. I was not referring to the amendment. I merely observed about the motion—and meant it—that it was refreshing to see a motion that was not fulsome in its praise and adulation of the Executive.", "EditedTextHTML": "There is some confusion over who is slavering over whom. I was not referring to the amendment. I merely observed about the motion—and meant it—that it was refreshing to see a motion that was not fulsome in its praise and adulation of the Executive.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2090E83P266C711783", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAllion, Mr John", "ID": 2090, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dundee East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John McAllion", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McAllion: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 165.0, "ContributionID": 711783, "EditedText": "I was trying to be complimentary, but obviously I have not made myself clear. The thought that we need more Brian Souters and Ann Gloags in Scotland does not necessarily appeal to me. I do not know anything about those two people, other than that they are multimillionaires. If the argument is that we need more multimillionaires in Scotland, I disagree, as that would require a redistribution of wealth from the many to the few. I am in favour of the opposite—redistribution from the few to the many. I would like to take money off the multimillionaires and give it to other people, as part of a modern Scottish economy. That is what divides my party, or the one to which I think I belong, from the Tory party. The Executive motion says that the way to prepare the Scottish economy for the 21st century and the competitive global pressures that it will meet is to modernise every sector of the economy. \"Modernise\" is a word that pops up everywhere today. All kinds of things are required to modernise: political parties, systems of education, the health service, the welfare state and even the dear old Commonwealth are told to modernise or die. People should be wary of that word and never take it at face value. Certain questions always have to be asked: for example, what kind of modernisation, and in whose interests? In the current phase of capitalist modernisation in Scotland, and around the world, it is fairly clear who benefits most. Certainly, the equity markets around the world have never been stronger. According to the financial pages of the Scottish press this week, after the US Federal Reserve increased interest rates, Wall Street roared ahead. The sustained rise in American stock markets since 1991 has led to a series of headlines in the American financial press such as, \"America is smug and prosperous\" and \"Fat and happy America.\" America has been so successful that the suggestion is that we should copy what the Americans have been doing. I remind members of the Parliament that 1 per cent of the American population owns half the stocks and shares in America; most of the rest of the shares are owned by the next 10 per cent. About 90 per cent of the American people have not benefited from the roaring ahead of Wall Street's equity markets. This week's papers show that the same thing is happening in the United Kingdom. In one day this week in the City of London, more than 1½ billion shares were traded for profit. We know who has profited from that trade. This week, Vodafone announced pre-tax profits of £879 million for the first six months of the year. Scottish and Southern Energy—a merger of two companies that used to belong to us all—announced pre-tax profits for the first six months of £197 million. It said that that was at the top end of its expectations. When things go wrong, the shareholders continue to benefit. National Power has been busy selling off most of the assets that were privatised—mostly coal-fired power stations. Its share of the power generation market has declined from 46 per cent to 8 per cent, because it is selling off the assets. That is not a successful performance for a company. However, because of institutional pressure, National Power has announced a payout to shareholders of £600 million. We know who is benefiting from modernisation: the owners, those who control capital, shareholders and the chief executives who pay themselves large salaries—they are doing very well. I am not surprised that Donald Gorrie was invited to the Scotland-England international by a chief executive, probably from one of those big multi-corporations that are doing well from the current phase of modernisation. Who else has profited? What about the workers? Tommy Sheridan was right to ask about the increase in insecurity among workers in this country. Alan Greenspan, chairman of the US Federal Reserve, said that the miracle of the US economy is due to greater worker insecurity. Not everybody benefits from capitalist modernisation. What about the workers? When will someone in the Parliament raise that question? There has been a massive step forward for workers in this country in the form of the national minimum wage. However, at a time when everyone connected with the boardroom is going through massive increases in salaries—", "EditedTextHTML": "I was trying to be complimentary, but obviously I have not made myself clear.

The thought that we need more Brian Souters and Ann Gloags in Scotland does not necessarily appeal to me. I do not know anything about those two people, other than that they are multimillionaires. If the argument is that we need more multimillionaires in Scotland, I disagree, as that would require a redistribution of wealth from the many to the few. I am in favour of the opposite—redistribution from the few to the many. I would like to take money off the multimillionaires and give it to other people, as part of a modern Scottish economy. That is what divides my party, or the one to which I think I belong, from the Tory party.

The Executive motion says that the way to prepare the Scottish economy for the 21st century and the competitive global pressures that it will meet is to modernise every sector of the economy. \"Modernise\" is a word that pops up everywhere today. All kinds of things are required to modernise: political parties, systems of education, the health service, the welfare state and even the dear old Commonwealth are told to modernise or die. People should be wary of that word and never take it at face value.

Certain questions always have to be asked: for example, what kind of modernisation, and in whose interests? In the current phase of capitalist modernisation in Scotland, and around the world, it is fairly clear who benefits most. Certainly, the equity markets around the world have never been stronger. According to the financial pages of the Scottish press this week, after the US Federal Reserve increased interest rates, Wall Street roared ahead. The sustained rise in American stock markets since 1991 has led to a series of headlines in the American financial press such as, \"America is smug and prosperous\" and \"Fat and happy America.\"

America has been so successful that the suggestion is that we should copy what the Americans have been doing. I remind members of the Parliament that 1 per cent of the American population owns half the stocks and shares in America; most of the rest of the shares are owned by the next 10 per cent. About 90 per cent of the American people have not benefited from the roaring ahead of Wall Street's equity markets.

This week's papers show that the same thing is happening in the United Kingdom. In one day this week in the City of London, more than 1½ billion shares were traded for profit. We know who has profited from that trade. This week, Vodafone announced pre-tax profits of £879 million for the first six months of the year. Scottish and Southern Energy—a merger of two companies that used to belong to us all—announced pre-tax profits for the first six months of £197 million. It said that that was at the top end of its expectations.

When things go wrong, the shareholders continue to benefit. National Power has been busy selling off most of the assets that were privatised—mostly coal-fired power stations. Its share of the power generation market has declined from 46 per cent to 8 per cent, because it is selling off the assets. That is not a successful performance for a company. However, because of institutional pressure, National Power has announced a payout to shareholders of £600 million.

We know who is benefiting from modernisation: the owners, those who control capital, shareholders and the chief executives who pay themselves large salaries—they are doing very well. I am not surprised that Donald Gorrie was invited to the Scotland-England international by a chief executive, probably from one of those big multi-corporations that are doing well from the current phase of modernisation.

Who else has profited? What about the workers? Tommy Sheridan was right to ask about

the increase in insecurity among workers in this country. Alan Greenspan, chairman of the US Federal Reserve, said that the miracle of the US economy is due to greater worker insecurity. Not everybody benefits from capitalist modernisation. What about the workers? When will someone in the Parliament raise that question?

There has been a massive step forward for workers in this country in the form of the national minimum wage. However, at a time when everyone connected with the boardroom is going through massive increases in salaries—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C711786", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 171.0, "ContributionID": 711786, "EditedText": "I hope that you will finish quickly.", "EditedTextHTML": "I hope that you will finish quickly.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2152E53P75C711793", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnston, Nick", "ID": 2152, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nick Johnston", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Johnston: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 189.0, "ContributionID": 711793, "EditedText": "I must finish.That regeneration can be helped further by the removal of onerous planning burdens, the provision of clear, unambiguous, non-confusing business advice and access to training provision that is relevant and demand led. Above all, there must be investment in Scotland's transport infrastructure. I support the Conservative amendment.", "EditedTextHTML": "I must finish.

That regeneration can be helped further by the removal of onerous planning burdens, the provision of clear, unambiguous, non-confusing business advice and access to training provision that is relevant and demand led. Above all, there must be investment in Scotland's transport infrastructure. I support the Conservative amendment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2134E160P198C711798", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McMahon, Michael", "ID": 2134, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton North and Bellshill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael McMahon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Michael McMahon (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 202.0, "ContributionID": 711798, "EditedText": "The Scottish economy is in good shape, despite the all too frequent attempts by nationalists and Tories to talk down the achievements of countless thousands of working Scots, managers, inward investors and the development agencies.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Scottish economy is in good shape, despite the all too frequent attempts by nationalists and Tories to talk down the achievements of countless thousands of working Scots, managers, inward investors and the development agencies.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2134E160P198C711800", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McMahon, Michael", "ID": 2134, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton North and Bellshill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael McMahon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McMahon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 206.0, "ContributionID": 711800, "EditedText": "I am not aware of the report to which Kenny refers. We are improving on what was left to us. The situation may have been bad in the past, but things are better today. That is the point that I am trying to make. Yet again the SNP is trying to talk down the achievements of the Government. Kenny has just made my point for me. It is clear that sound fiscal control and good economic management by the Scottish Minister for Finance and by the chancellor at Westminster have been the cornerstones of the stability that we currently enjoy. That fact goes against the grain of John Swinney's amendment and his argument about the sharing of macro-economic responsibilities between Scotland and the rest of the UK. In almost all the key areas of the economy, the news is positive. Lloyd Quinan may say that the figures are regurgitated, but why should we hide good news? Output in our production industries was up 1.8 per cent in the second quarter of 1999. The manufacturing sector, which is so important to constituencies such as mine in Lanarkshire, also showed a 1.2 per cent increase over the second quarter. Output in the electrical and instrument engineering sectors rose by 8.7 per cent in the same period. Total manufacturing exports in the second quarter of 1999—", "EditedTextHTML": "I am not aware of the report to which Kenny refers. We are improving on what was left to us. The situation may have been bad in the past, but things are better today. That is the point that I am trying to make. Yet again the SNP is trying to talk down the achievements of the Government. Kenny has just made my point for me.

It is clear that sound fiscal control and good economic management by the Scottish Minister for Finance and by the chancellor at Westminster have been the cornerstones of the stability that we currently enjoy. That fact goes against the grain of John Swinney's amendment and his argument about the sharing of macro-economic responsibilities between Scotland and the rest of the UK. In almost all the key areas of the economy, the news is positive. Lloyd Quinan may say that the figures are regurgitated, but why should we hide good news? Output in our production industries was up 1.8 per cent in the second quarter of 1999. The manufacturing sector, which is so important to constituencies such as mine in Lanarkshire, also showed a 1.2 per cent increase over the second quarter. Output in the electrical and instrument engineering sectors rose by 8.7 per cent in the same period. Total manufacturing exports in the second quarter of 1999—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2134E160P198C711803", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McMahon, Michael", "ID": 2134, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton North and Bellshill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael McMahon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McMahon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 212.0, "ContributionID": 711803, "EditedText": "I keep being interrupted. I have only a couple of minutes, so I hope that the member will not mind if I carry on. The Scottish Executive is delivering a stable and modern economy that is helping to increase prosperity for everyone. For more than 200 years, Lanarkshire has been the manufacturing heartland of the nation and of Scotland's economy. The heavy industries that once dominated in Lanarkshire have been disappearing, but they are being replaced by new, modern workplaces in high-tech sectors such as engineering, electronics and services. The people of Lanarkshire have faced many hurdles over the years in the search for prosperity—I do not want to recount them here— but those same people, whom I represent, have adapted to the new era. They have equipped themselves to take advantage of the new opportunities that are encouraged by the strong, modern economy that the Executive is delivering. We know what businesses in Lanarkshire and elsewhere need—this may upset John Swinney, given his earlier comments—because we have listened to them. They want a modern, strong and fair economy, backed by a modern and credible Government that is committed to working with industry and to modernising the country. Employers know that the Government strategy for economic growth is serving Scotland. The Government has delivered the lowest ever business tax rates, with the main rate of corporation tax cut from 33 to 30 per cent, small business rates cut from 23 to 20 per cent, and corporation tax for the smallest companies cut to just 10 per cent from April 2000. As a result, 11,000 companies from all over the globe and based in Lanarkshire know that they are better off under this Executive. In Lanarkshire, as elsewhere, we know that we must not only attract inward investment—valuable though that is—but encourage indigenous businesses to flourish, which will utilise the immense talents of the people of the area. Nearly 12.3 per cent of Scotland's population lives in Lanarkshire. Those people welcome the Scottish Executive's commitment to create 100,000 new indigenous businesses by 2009. That is a promise from this Executive to Scotland's people. Businesses will be well served by a modern Lanarkshire that is home to prestigious international business locations, such as Eurocentral, Tannochside park, the Strathclyde business park and the technology park in Hamilton. The Executive is committed to Scotland's economy. It is initiating a Scottish labour market unit, creating 20,000 modern apprenticeships and a university for industry, and introducing a new business mentoring scheme. Scotland's Executive is working with Scotland and with the UK Parliament to deliver for business and industry in Scotland. It is delivering a modern economy for our people and for the people I represent. That agenda, Lloyd Quinan, includes working with the trade unions in every sector of the economy.", "EditedTextHTML": "I keep being interrupted. I have only a couple of minutes, so I hope that the member will not mind if I carry on.

The Scottish Executive is delivering a stable and modern economy that is helping to increase prosperity for everyone. For more than 200 years, Lanarkshire has been the manufacturing heartland of the nation and of Scotland's economy. The heavy industries that once dominated in

Lanarkshire have been disappearing, but they are being replaced by new, modern workplaces in high-tech sectors such as engineering, electronics and services.

The people of Lanarkshire have faced many hurdles over the years in the search for prosperity—I do not want to recount them here— but those same people, whom I represent, have adapted to the new era. They have equipped themselves to take advantage of the new opportunities that are encouraged by the strong, modern economy that the Executive is delivering.

We know what businesses in Lanarkshire and elsewhere need—this may upset John Swinney, given his earlier comments—because we have listened to them. They want a modern, strong and fair economy, backed by a modern and credible Government that is committed to working with industry and to modernising the country.

Employers know that the Government strategy for economic growth is serving Scotland. The Government has delivered the lowest ever business tax rates, with the main rate of corporation tax cut from 33 to 30 per cent, small business rates cut from 23 to 20 per cent, and corporation tax for the smallest companies cut to just 10 per cent from April 2000. As a result, 11,000 companies from all over the globe and based in Lanarkshire know that they are better off under this Executive.

In Lanarkshire, as elsewhere, we know that we must not only attract inward investment—valuable though that is—but encourage indigenous businesses to flourish, which will utilise the immense talents of the people of the area. Nearly

12.3 per cent of Scotland's population lives in Lanarkshire. Those people welcome the Scottish Executive's commitment to create 100,000 new indigenous businesses by 2009. That is a promise from this Executive to Scotland's people. Businesses will be well served by a modern Lanarkshire that is home to prestigious international business locations, such as Eurocentral, Tannochside park, the Strathclyde business park and the technology park in Hamilton. The Executive is committed to Scotland's economy. It is initiating a Scottish labour market unit, creating 20,000 modern apprenticeships and a university for industry, and introducing a new business mentoring scheme. Scotland's Executive is working with Scotland and with the UK Parliament to deliver for business and industry in Scotland. It is delivering a modern economy for our people and for the people I represent. That agenda, Lloyd Quinan, includes working with the trade unions in every sector of the economy.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1926E190P479C711809", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Adam, Brian", "ID": 1926, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Adam", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Brian Adam: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 225.0, "ContributionID": 711809, "EditedText": "I am quite happy to give way.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am quite happy to give way.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C711810", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 227.0, "ContributionID": 711810, "EditedText": "We must come to an end now if we are to include Tavish Scott.", "EditedTextHTML": "We must come to an end now if we are to include Tavish Scott.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1926E190P479C711811", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Adam, Brian", "ID": 1926, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Adam", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Brian Adam: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 229.0, "ContributionID": 711811, "EditedText": "In that case, that is all I have to say.", "EditedTextHTML": "In that case, that is all I have to say.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C711812", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 231.0, "ContributionID": 711812, "EditedText": "I call Tavish Scott, but I am afraid that you now have only three minutes.", "EditedTextHTML": "I call Tavish Scott, but I am afraid that you now have only three minutes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C711814", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 236.0, "ContributionID": 711814, "EditedText": "Does Tavish Scott appreciate the significance of places such as Hull for the future of the Scottish economy? Will he indicate what the approach of the partnership and the Executive is to upgrading the M74 into England and completing the dualling of the A1—from a strategic point of view?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does Tavish Scott appreciate the significance of places such as Hull for the future of the Scottish economy? Will he indicate what the approach of the partnership and the Executive is to upgrading the M74 into England and completing the dualling of the A1—from a strategic point of view?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C711817", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 242.0, "ContributionID": 711817, "EditedText": "On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I must, as a representative of one of the smaller parties, ask that you and the other Presiding Officers publish some transparent rules to be used when calling speakers. I lodged an amendment to Henry McLeish's motion which was not selected by the Presiding Officer. I was not called this morning, despite trying to ask the minister questions on the ethical standards bill. I have asked to participate in today's debate, and, again, I have not been called. Some arrangement about who gets called seems to be taking place behind closed doors. I hope that the rules that I have proposed get published.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I must, as a representative of one of the smaller parties, ask that you and the

other Presiding Officers publish some transparent rules to be used when calling speakers.

I lodged an amendment to Henry McLeish's motion which was not selected by the Presiding Officer. I was not called this morning, despite trying to ask the minister questions on the ethical standards bill. I have asked to participate in today's debate, and, again, I have not been called. Some arrangement about who gets called seems to be taking place behind closed doors. I hope that the rules that I have proposed get published.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C711818", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 244.0, "ContributionID": 711818, "EditedText": "Order. Have you pressed your request button for this debate, Mr Sheridan?", "EditedTextHTML": "Order. Have you pressed your request button for this debate, Mr Sheridan?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C711821", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 250.0, "ContributionID": 711821, "EditedText": "It is pressed, and was activated all the way through the debate.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is pressed, and was activated all the way through the debate.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C711823", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 254.0, "ContributionID": 711823, "EditedText": "I will respond to Mr Sheridan first. I will consult with the Presiding Officer on the substantive points that you made. A response will be given to you. Secondly, I will arrange for the request button on your console to be checked. Your name is not showing on my screen. I take your point, Mr Macintosh, about extended ministerial contributions at the start of debates.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will respond to Mr Sheridan first. I will consult with the Presiding Officer on the substantive points that you made. A response will be given to you. Secondly, I will arrange for the request button on your console to be checked. Your name is not showing on my screen.

I take your point, Mr Macintosh, about extended ministerial contributions at the start of debates.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5607676+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C711824", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 256.0, "ContributionID": 711824, "EditedText": "On a secondary point of order. While you were speaking, Presiding Officer, my request button was still pressed, so there is obviously a fault with my console that needs to be addressed.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a secondary point of order. While you were speaking, Presiding Officer, my request button was still pressed, so there is obviously a fault with my console that needs to be addressed.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5607676+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2123E103P242C711826", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Chisholm, Malcolm", "ID": 2123, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh North and Leith" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Malcolm Chisholm", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 260.0, "ContributionID": 711826, "EditedText": "On a point of order. I suspect that when a member makes an intervention, their name is wiped off your screen. I think that members should be aware of that. It has happened to me.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. I suspect that when a member makes an intervention, their name is wiped off your screen. I think that members should be aware of that. It has happened to me.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5607676+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C711829", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 267.0, "ContributionID": 711829, "EditedText": "Mr Davidson, would you close, please.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Davidson, would you close, please.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5607676+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C711830", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Davidson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 269.0, "ContributionID": 711830, "EditedText": "I will turn to the constraints on enterprise, the biggest of which is access to funding. New businesses tend to start with 50 per cent of their own funding and 40 per cent comes from the banking sector, which must be drawn into discussion with Government and business about how we can best access money where the risk is transferred in part to the investor. Mr McLeish talked about private investment. The banking system must come into that. I wished to consider all the many things that could have been mentioned this morning but, as I am conscious of time, I will turn to comments made by the other parties.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will turn to the constraints on enterprise, the biggest of which is access to funding. New businesses tend to start with 50 per cent of their own funding and 40 per cent comes from the banking sector, which must be drawn into discussion with Government and business about how we can best access money where the risk is transferred in part to the investor. Mr McLeish talked about private investment. The banking system must come into that.

I wished to consider all the many things that could have been mentioned this morning but, as I am conscious of time, I will turn to comments made by the other parties.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5607676+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C711832", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Davidson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 273.0, "ContributionID": 711832, "EditedText": "I thought that there was a policy shift from the SNP, in that it is now seeking low taxes, rather than the high tax ideas that it favoured before the election. I welcome that shift and I hope that it will be followed through. However, does John McAllion not realise that profits produce tax, which produces the social spending that he so wishes? I attended an event yesterday at which an American spoke about change and the rate of change and said that Government must learn to live and move at the speed that business requires. Silence greeted the remark—everyone felt it—but it is the message that we must take forward.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thought that there was a policy shift from the SNP, in that it is now seeking low taxes, rather than the high tax ideas that it favoured before the election. I welcome that shift and I hope that it will be followed through. However, does John McAllion not realise that profits produce tax, which produces the social spending that he so wishes?

I attended an event yesterday at which an American spoke about change and the rate of change and said that Government must learn to live and move at the speed that business requires. Silence greeted the remark—everyone felt it—but it is the message that we must take forward.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5607676+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C711842", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 294.0, "ContributionID": 711842, "EditedText": "I invite the minister to tell me what the export figures are. He cannot tell us what the economy-wide figures are. He has quoted a lot of unemployment statistics, which are at his disposal, but, as Tommy Sheridan, John McAllion and Lloyd Quinan pointed out, there are more people in short-term contracts, working part time, working longer days and under greater stress than at any point in our history.", "EditedTextHTML": "I invite the minister to tell me what the export figures are. He cannot tell us what the economy-wide figures are. He has quoted a lot of unemployment statistics, which are at his disposal, but, as Tommy Sheridan, John McAllion and Lloyd Quinan pointed out, there are more people in short-term contracts, working part time, working longer days and under greater stress than at any point in our history.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5607676+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C711843", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 296.0, "ContributionID": 711843, "EditedText": "You are talking Scotland down.", "EditedTextHTML": "You are talking Scotland down.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5607676+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2154E194P299C711847", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stephen, Nicol", "ID": 2154, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Nicol Stephen", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicol Stephen: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 305.0, "ContributionID": 711847, "EditedText": "I want to make progress. I have limited time. All those examples are, in a sense, location neutral. They could be located in many places, but we have them here in Scotland. In a sense, we have overcome peripherality, but I do not want to make too much of that. Look at Japan and its successes in recent decades. One wonders whether Japan would have been chosen as a location to tackle the North American and European markets.", "EditedTextHTML": "I want to make progress. I have limited time.

All those examples are, in a sense, location neutral. They could be located in many places, but we have them here in Scotland. In a sense, we have overcome peripherality, but I do not want to make too much of that. Look at Japan and its successes in recent decades. One wonders whether Japan would have been chosen as a location to tackle the North American and European markets.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5607676+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C711848", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Monteith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 307.0, "ContributionID": 711848, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5607676+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2152E53P75C711858", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnston, Nick", "ID": 2152, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nick Johnston", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Johnston: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 327.0, "ContributionID": 711858, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5607676+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2154E194P299C711859", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stephen, Nicol", "ID": 2154, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Nicol Stephen", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicol Stephen: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 329.0, "ContributionID": 711859, "EditedText": "I am sorry, no. I have very little time and I want to cover the transport issue, which was raised by Murray Tosh, Cathy Jamieson, Tavish Scott and others. The strategic roads review has announced new money and new investment. However, as was said, investment in rail, bus, air and sea links is also vitally important. We have a strong message about Scotland being a place to do business and that is underscored by the level of inward investment to Scotland. We have a strong record and we should not talk Scotland down. Regarding Brain Adam's comments, the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee is examining the advice and support structure and its complexities. As I have said, we are willing to listen to constructive suggestions for change. I am sure that Brian recognises the importance of the oil and gas industry task force and the many good initiatives in that area. If he is suggesting a centre of excellence for that industry in the north-east, as Nicola Sturgeon suggested for the shipbuilding industry, we are prepared to examine that. We want new ideas. I will finish by mentioning John Swinney's comments, which relate to Andrew Wilson's comments. We want to hear their thoughts and we want to have an inclusive approach to this issue. We want to know about the SNP's policies. Which of the \"too many\" initiatives that he mentioned would he cut? What would he put in their place? There will be a Scottish economic strategy and it will be brought to the Parliament and to the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee, but John Swinney said that the Scottish Executive must be \"truly in command of the direction of the Scottish economy\".I would like to let Mr Swinney into a secret—the Scottish Executive and the Parliament will never be \"in command of the direction of the Scottish economy\"nor should they be. In a modern economy government's role is to support and to assist. It is not a command structure and it is not about centralised state control. Some of Mr Swinney's comments smack of thestyle of national economic strategy in which only macro-economic intervention is appropriate. His comments smack too much of the centralised state control that would stifle, not stimulate our economy. Our approach is progressive. Education is crucial and corporation tax is crucial and, particularly for smaller companies, has been reduced in recent years. We are also concerned about research and development. We are taking steps to do something about all those issues. Education is at the centre of what the Executive is determined to do. John Swinney talks about the Government leading the process through the Parliament. It will be Scotland's business and industry and the people of Scotland and their skills, innovation and creativity that will lead the process. The Executive and, I hope, members of all parties are determined to help them succeed.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry, no. I have very little time and I want to cover the transport issue, which was raised by Murray Tosh, Cathy Jamieson, Tavish Scott and others. The strategic roads review has announced new money and new investment. However, as was said, investment in rail, bus, air and sea links is also vitally important. We have a strong message about Scotland being a place to do business and that is underscored by the level of inward investment to Scotland. We have a strong record and we should not talk Scotland down.

Regarding Brain Adam's comments, the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee is examining the advice and support structure and its complexities. As I have said, we are willing to listen to constructive suggestions for change. I am sure that Brian recognises the importance of the oil and gas industry task force and the many good initiatives in that area. If he is suggesting a centre of excellence for that industry in the north-east, as Nicola Sturgeon suggested for the shipbuilding industry, we are prepared to examine that. We want new ideas.

I will finish by mentioning John Swinney's comments, which relate to Andrew Wilson's comments. We want to hear their thoughts and we want to have an inclusive approach to this issue. We want to know about the SNP's policies. Which of the \"too many\" initiatives that he mentioned would he cut? What would he put in their place? There will be a Scottish economic strategy and it will be brought to the Parliament and to the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee, but John Swinney said that the Scottish Executive must be

\"truly in command of the direction of the Scottish economy\".

I would like to let Mr Swinney into a secret—the Scottish Executive and the Parliament will never be

\"in command of the direction of the Scottish economy\"

nor should they be. In a modern economy government's role is to support and to assist. It is not a command structure and it is not about centralised state control.

Some of Mr Swinney's comments smack of the

style of national economic strategy in which only macro-economic intervention is appropriate. His comments smack too much of the centralised state control that would stifle, not stimulate our economy. Our approach is progressive. Education is crucial and corporation tax is crucial and, particularly for smaller companies, has been reduced in recent years. We are also concerned about research and development. We are taking steps to do something about all those issues. Education is at the centre of what the Executive is determined to do.

John Swinney talks about the Government leading the process through the Parliament. It will be Scotland's business and industry and the people of Scotland and their skills, innovation and creativity that will lead the process. The Executive and, I hope, members of all parties are determined to help them succeed.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5607676+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711860", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 331.0, "ContributionID": 711860, "EditedText": "That concludes the debate. I would like to refer to the points of order that were raised with Mr Reid, which I heard in my office. The Deputy Presiding Officers and I will review what happened in this debate regarding speaking times. Nine members who wished to speak were not called. Regarding Mr Sheridan's point, I am advised that his card was not properly inserted into his console. When we get to Holyrood, we hope to have a better system that will enable members to know whether they have been registered as wishing to speak. What happened this morning was an accident. You were not on the list when I was in the chair earlier. I apologise for that. It is a technical matter and not a conspiracy.", "EditedTextHTML": "That concludes the debate. I would like to refer to the points of order that were raised with Mr Reid, which I heard in my office. The Deputy Presiding Officers and I will review what happened in this debate regarding speaking times. Nine members who wished to speak were not called.

Regarding Mr Sheridan's point, I am advised that his card was not properly inserted into his console. When we get to Holyrood, we hope to have a better system that will enable members to know whether they have been registered as wishing to speak. What happened this morning was an accident. You were not on the list when I was in the chair earlier. I apologise for that. It is a technical matter and not a conspiracy.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5607676+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711862", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27071, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 335.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 335.0, "ID": 27071, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 336.0, "ContributionID": 711862, "EditedText": "The next item of business is consideration of business motion S1M-299.", "EditedTextHTML": "The next item of business is consideration of business motion S1M-299.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5607676+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1832E96P195C711865", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27071, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 335.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 335.0, "ID": 27071, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Livingstone, Marilyn", "ID": 1832, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Kirkcaldy" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Marilyn Livingstone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Marilyn Livingstone (Kirkcaldy) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 342.0, "ContributionID": 711865, "EditedText": "I think that it is. I was one of the nine who were not called to speak earlier.", "EditedTextHTML": "I think that it is. I was one of the nine who were not called to speak earlier.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5763926+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711866", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27071, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 335.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 335.0, "ID": 27071, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 344.0, "ContributionID": 711866, "EditedText": "The question is, that business motion S1M-299 be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "The question is, that business motion S1M-299 be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5763926+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2228E151P202C711868", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Standards Committee", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27072, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 347.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 347.0, "ID": 27072, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McCabe, Tom", "ID": 2228, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Tom McCabe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Parliament (Mr Tom McCabe): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 348.0, "ContributionID": 711868, "EditedText": "Should not also the motion relating to the Standards Committee be moved?", "EditedTextHTML": "Should not also the motion relating to the Standards Committee be moved?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5763926+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711871", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Standards Committee", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27072, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 347.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 347.0, "ID": 27072, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 353.0, "ContributionID": 711871, "EditedText": "That the Parliament agrees that Patricia Ferguson be appointed to the Standards Committee.—Mr McCabe.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament agrees that Patricia Ferguson be appointed to the Standards Committee.—[Mr McCabe.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5763926+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711872", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Standards Committee", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27072, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 347.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 347.0, "ID": 27072, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 354.0, "ContributionID": 711872, "EditedText": "The question is, that motion S1M-292, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, be agreed to. Question, That the meeting be now adjourned until 2.30 pm today, put and agreed to.—Mr McCabe.", "EditedTextHTML": "The question is, that motion S1M-292, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, be agreed to.

Question, That the meeting be now adjourned until 2.30 pm today, put and agreed to.—[Mr McCabe.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5763926+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711873", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Standards Committee", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27072, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 347.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 347.0, "ID": 27072, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 356.0, "ContributionID": 711873, "EditedText": "Meeting adjourned at 12:36.", "EditedTextHTML": "Meeting adjourned at 12:36.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5763926+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711877", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27073, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 359.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27074, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 360.0, "QuestionHeading": "Freedom of Information", "QuestionHeadingID": 27075, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 361.0, "DisplayOrder": 361.0, "ID": 27075, "ParentID": 27074 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Lord Advocate", "SpeakerName": "Andrew Hardie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Lord Advocate: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 366.0, "ContributionID": 711877, "EditedText": "As I have indicated, the Scottish Executive will issue a consultation document to which people in Scotland who have an interest can respond.", "EditedTextHTML": "As I have indicated, the Scottish Executive will issue a consultation document to which people in Scotland who have an interest can respond.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5763926+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2223E203P342C711881", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27073, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 359.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27074, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 360.0, "QuestionHeading": "North of Scotland Water Authority", "QuestionHeadingID": 27077, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 375.0, "DisplayOrder": 375.0, "ID": 27077, "ParentID": 27074 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scott, Tavish", "ID": 2223, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Shetland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tavish Scott", "SpeakerDisplayName": "3. Tavish Scott (Shetland) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 376.0, "ContributionID": 711881, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive when ministers last met the North of Scotland Water Authority and what matters were discussed. (S1O-630) The Minister for Transport and the Environment (Sarah Boyack): I last met the North of Scotland Water Authority on 14 September 1999 to discuss strategic issues in relation to its corporate plan.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive when ministers last met the North of Scotland Water Authority and what matters were discussed. (S1O-630) The Minister for Transport and the Environment (Sarah Boyack): I last met the North of Scotland Water Authority on 14 September 1999 to discuss strategic issues in relation to its corporate plan.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C711884", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27073, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 359.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27074, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 360.0, "QuestionHeading": "Caledonian MacBrayne", "QuestionHeadingID": 27078, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 382.0, "DisplayOrder": 382.0, "ID": 27078, "ParentID": 27074 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "4. George Lyon (Argyll and Bute) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 383.0, "ContributionID": 711884, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive when it last met the chairman of Caledonian MacBrayne and what matters were discussed. (S1O-647) The Minister for Transport and the Environment (Sarah Boyack): The First Minister, the Deputy Minister for Highlands and Islands and Gaelic and I met the chairman and the managing director of Caledonian MacBrayne on 21 September. During that meeting, a range of matters were discussed.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive when it last met the chairman of Caledonian MacBrayne and what matters were discussed. (S1O-647) The Minister for Transport and the Environment (Sarah Boyack): The First Minister, the Deputy Minister for Highlands and Islands and Gaelic and I met the chairman and the managing director of Caledonian MacBrayne on 21 September. During that meeting, a range of matters were discussed.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C711885", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27073, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 359.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27074, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 360.0, "QuestionHeading": "Caledonian MacBrayne", "QuestionHeadingID": 27078, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 382.0, "DisplayOrder": 382.0, "ID": 27078, "ParentID": 27074 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 385.0, "ContributionID": 711885, "EditedText": "In view of the likely withdrawal of Sea Containers from the Campbeltown to Ballycastle ferry route, will the minister ask Caledonian MacBrayne to come forward with proposals to take over that route?", "EditedTextHTML": "In view of the likely withdrawal of Sea Containers from the Campbeltown to Ballycastle ferry route, will the minister ask Caledonian MacBrayne to come forward with proposals to take over that route?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711889", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27073, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 359.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27074, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 360.0, "QuestionHeading": "Caledonian MacBrayne", "QuestionHeadingID": 27078, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 382.0, "DisplayOrder": 382.0, "ID": 27078, "ParentID": 27074 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 393.0, "ContributionID": 711889, "EditedText": "I think not.", "EditedTextHTML": "I think not.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2033E106P139C711900", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27073, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 359.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27074, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 360.0, "QuestionHeading": "Immigration and Asylum", "QuestionHeadingID": 27080, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 406.0, "DisplayOrder": 406.0, "ID": 27080, "ParentID": 27074 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gray, Iain", "ID": 2033, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Pentlands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Iain Gray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Iain Gray: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 417.0, "ContributionID": 711900, "EditedText": "The short answer to that question is no. I reiterate that, in matters where we have devolved responsibility, we will take measures to ensure that we can give the assurance—in response to questions or in any other way—that we are playing our part in providing the support that is required for those who seek asylum on our shores. That is the correct way forward.", "EditedTextHTML": "The short answer to that question is no. I reiterate that, in matters where we have devolved responsibility, we will take measures to ensure that we can give the assurance—in response to questions or in any other way—that we are playing our part in providing the support that is required for those who seek asylum on our shores. That is the correct way forward.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C711904", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27073, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 359.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27074, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 360.0, "QuestionHeading": "Scottish Football Association", "QuestionHeadingID": 27082, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 426.0, "DisplayOrder": 426.0, "ID": 27082, "ParentID": 27074 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "8. Mr Brian Monteith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 427.0, "ContributionID": 711904, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive when the Deputy Minister for Culture and Sport last met the Scottish Football Association and what they discussed. (S1O-658) The Deputy Minister for Culture and Sport (Rhona Brankin): I will take this opportunity, as so many of the gentlemen in Parliament have done today, to congratulate Craig Brown and the team on their victory last night. Applause. We share their disappointment that they are not going to the finals, which is a source of great sadness to us all. Since my appointment as deputy minister, I have met representatives of the Scottish Football Association on several occasions, most recently during my attendance at Scotland's match against the Czech Republic on 14 November. That has probably stumped Mr Monteith. How many people know about that football match, which Scotland also won? When I met the SFA, there was no formal agenda but a range of issues was discussed.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive when the Deputy Minister for Culture and Sport last met the Scottish Football Association and what they discussed. (S1O-658) The Deputy Minister for Culture and Sport (Rhona Brankin): I will take this opportunity, as so many of the gentlemen in Parliament have done today, to congratulate Craig Brown and the team on their victory last night. [Applause.] We share their disappointment that they are not going to the finals, which is a source of great sadness to us all.

Since my appointment as deputy minister, I have met representatives of the Scottish Football Association on several occasions, most recently during my attendance at Scotland's match against the Czech Republic on 14 November. That has probably stumped Mr Monteith. How many people know about that football match, which Scotland also won? When I met the SFA, there was no formal agenda but a range of issues was discussed.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C711908", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27073, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 359.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27074, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 360.0, "QuestionHeading": "Acute Services Review", "QuestionHeadingID": 27083, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 433.0, "DisplayOrder": 433.0, "ID": 27083, "ParentID": 27074 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 436.0, "ContributionID": 711908, "EditedText": "Given the reported £22 million overspend by 14 acute hospital trusts in Scotland only halfway through the financial year, does the minister acknowledge that the rising drugs budget, the 2,000 blocked beds and the potential problems with winter pressures constitute serious mismanagement of the national health service and prove that the Government is failing to deliver on its promises to the Scottish people?", "EditedTextHTML": "Given the reported £22 million overspend by 14 acute hospital trusts in Scotland only halfway through the financial year, does the minister acknowledge that the rising drugs budget, the 2,000 blocked beds and the potential problems with winter pressures constitute serious mismanagement of the national health service and prove that the Government is failing to deliver on its promises to the Scottish people?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C711909", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27073, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 359.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27074, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 360.0, "QuestionHeading": "Acute Services Review", "QuestionHeadingID": 27083, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 433.0, "DisplayOrder": 433.0, "ID": 27083, "ParentID": 27074 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 438.0, "ContributionID": 711909, "EditedText": "The short answer is no. I am disappointed because, following Mrs Scanlon's first question, I thought for a moment that she was interested in the future development of the health service in Scotland, as this Executive is. That is why in the current year we are investing record amounts in the NHS in Scotland. That is not all. We are also ensuring that those resources are being used properly and effectively by putting in place strategies, such as the acute services review, to provide the best possible services for patients across Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "The short answer is no. I am disappointed because, following Mrs Scanlon's first question, I thought for a moment that she was interested in the future development of the health service in Scotland, as this Executive is. That is why in the current year we are investing record amounts in the NHS in Scotland. That is not all. We are also ensuring that those resources are being used properly and effectively by putting in place strategies, such as the acute services review, to provide the best possible services for patients across Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711914", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27073, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 359.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27074, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 360.0, "QuestionHeading": "Criminal Injuries Compensation Authority", "QuestionHeadingID": 27084, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 440.0, "DisplayOrder": 440.0, "ID": 27084, "ParentID": 27074 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Lord Advocate", "SpeakerName": "Andrew Hardie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Lord Advocate: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 449.0, "ContributionID": 711914, "EditedText": "I understand that no MP or MSP has made a complaint about any particular case but, if Tricia Marwick writes to the minister, I am sure that he will take up the case to which she refers. It is possible for anyone who feels aggrieved about a delay in the handling of their case to contact the operations manager at CICA to find out what is wrong. The Scottish parliamentary commissioner for administration also investigates complaints from members of the public who may have suffered because of maladministration. That procedure would apply to CICA as well.", "EditedTextHTML": "I understand that no MP or MSP has made a complaint about any particular case but, if Tricia Marwick writes to the minister, I am sure that he will take up the case to which she refers. It is possible for anyone who feels aggrieved about a delay in the handling of their case to contact the operations manager at CICA to find out what is wrong. The Scottish parliamentary commissioner for administration also investigates complaints from members of the public who may have suffered because of maladministration. That procedure would apply to CICA as well.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C711916", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27073, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 359.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27074, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 360.0, "QuestionHeading": "Juvenile Offenders", "QuestionHeadingID": 27085, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 451.0, "DisplayOrder": 451.0, "ID": 27085, "ParentID": 27074 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 454.0, "ContributionID": 711916, "EditedText": "The Scottish Executive has recently announced special treatment for young offenders, which will involve attempting to limit the time that they spend in prison. Does the First Minister care about the effect on the victims in the case to which I referred, two of whom suffered from learning difficulties? The third, an elderly lady, Mrs Bryden, is now afraid to go out in the dark.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Scottish Executive has recently announced special treatment for young offenders, which will involve attempting to limit the time that they spend in prison. Does the First Minister care about the effect on the victims in the case to which I referred, two of whom suffered from learning difficulties? The third, an elderly lady, Mrs Bryden, is now afraid to go out in the dark.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1865E219P509C711919", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27073, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 359.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27074, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 360.0, "QuestionHeading": "Police Budgets", "QuestionHeadingID": 27086, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 458.0, "DisplayOrder": 458.0, "ID": 27086, "ParentID": 27074 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "White, Sandra", "ID": 1865, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sandra White", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms White: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 461.0, "ContributionID": 711919, "EditedText": "I thank the Lord Advocate for that answer, but it was not the one that I hoped for. The £150 million is extra funding for the Metropolitan police. Is he aware that we do not have extra money in Scotland for policing visiting dignitaries? Is he also aware of the special problems of Glasgow, which has three major football stadiums, and of Edinburgh, which has Murrayfield, Holyrood and the Scottish Parliament to police?", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the Lord Advocate for that answer, but it was not the one that I hoped for. The £150 million is extra funding for the Metropolitan police. Is he aware that we do not have extra money in Scotland for policing visiting dignitaries? Is he also aware of the special problems of Glasgow, which has three major football stadiums, and of Edinburgh, which has Murrayfield, Holyrood and the Scottish Parliament to police?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2152E53P75C711926", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27073, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 359.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27074, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 360.0, "QuestionHeading": "Portmoak Airfield", "QuestionHeadingID": 27088, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 474.0, "DisplayOrder": 474.0, "ID": 27088, "ParentID": 27074 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnston, Nick", "ID": 2152, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nick Johnston", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Johnston: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 477.0, "ContributionID": 711926, "EditedText": "Is the minister aware that planning permission has been granted for an equestrian centre directly under the flight path? The Scottish Gliding Union is worried in case an accident occurs and its licence is removed. Does she agree that the Portmoak airfield is a valuable resource for Kinross and will she issue guidelines to Perth and Kinross Council regarding development on this site?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is the minister aware that planning permission has been granted for an equestrian centre directly under the flight path? The Scottish Gliding Union is worried in case an accident occurs and its licence is removed. Does she agree that the Portmoak airfield is a valuable resource for Kinross and will she issue guidelines to Perth and Kinross Council regarding development on this site?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1888E265P358C711932", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27073, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 359.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27074, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 360.0, "QuestionHeading": "Genetically Modified Organisms", "QuestionHeadingID": 27090, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 488.0, "DisplayOrder": 488.0, "ID": 27090, "ParentID": 27074 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morgan, Alasdair", "ID": 1888, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Galloway and Upper Nithsdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morgan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alasdair Morgan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 491.0, "ContributionID": 711932, "EditedText": "In view of a recent study on a farm near Oxford, which showed that beehives up to 4.5 km from a GM trial crop were contaminated by GM pollen, is it not a bit complacent to be satisfied with the current separation limit of 200 m from conventional trial crops?", "EditedTextHTML": "In view of a recent study on a farm near Oxford, which showed that beehives up to 4.5 km from a GM trial crop were contaminated by GM pollen, is it not a bit complacent to be satisfied with the current separation limit of 200 m from conventional trial crops?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1873E89P171C711934", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27073, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 359.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27074, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 360.0, "QuestionHeading": "Halfway Houses", "QuestionHeadingID": 27091, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 495.0, "DisplayOrder": 495.0, "ID": 27091, "ParentID": 27074 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jackson, Dr Sylvia", "ID": 1873, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Stirling" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sylvia Jackson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "20. Dr Sylvia Jackson (Stirling) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 496.0, "ContributionID": 711934, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will consider the proposal for a number of halfway houses, which would allow women to live under supervision with their children, as an alternative to prison. (S1O663) The Deputy Minister for Social Inclusion, Equality and the Voluntary Sector (Jackie Baillie): Local authorities are already funded to provide a range of community accommodation for offenders and women, which is given priority as a matter of policy. Some of those hostels may make provision for children, too.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will consider the proposal for a number of halfway houses, which would allow women to live under supervision with their children, as an alternative to prison. (S1O663) The Deputy Minister for Social Inclusion, Equality and the Voluntary Sector (Jackie Baillie): Local authorities are already funded to provide a range of community accommodation for offenders and women, which is given priority as a matter of policy. Some of those hostels may make provision for children, too.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2154E194P299C711939", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27073, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 359.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27074, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 360.0, "QuestionHeading": "Trading Standards Officers", "QuestionHeadingID": 27092, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 502.0, "DisplayOrder": 502.0, "ID": 27092, "ParentID": 27074 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stephen, Nicol", "ID": 2154, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Nicol Stephen", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicol Stephen: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 507.0, "ContributionID": 711939, "EditedText": "The white paper recognises the strong advantages of locally based services but also the pressure on resources that is caused by the increasingly wide range of activities that are being carried out, especially in smaller local authority areas. Particular emphasis is given to the provision of sufficient training for new TSOs. An additional £1.5 million has been allocated to assist potential candidates through first degree courses and to subsidise postgraduates in work study. The UK Government will invest £500,000 to improve distance learning material to assist unqualified staff to convert to a new diploma course. Those measures will benefit Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "The white paper recognises the strong advantages of locally based services but also the pressure on resources that is caused by the increasingly wide range of activities that are being carried out, especially in smaller local authority areas. Particular emphasis is given to the provision of sufficient training for new TSOs.

An additional £1.5 million has been allocated to assist potential candidates through first degree courses and to subsidise postgraduates in work study. The UK Government will invest £500,000 to improve distance learning material to assist unqualified staff to convert to a new diploma course. Those measures will benefit Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1769E16P282C711941", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27073, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 359.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27074, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 360.0, "QuestionHeading": "Speech and Language Impairments", "QuestionHeadingID": 27093, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 511.0, "DisplayOrder": 511.0, "ID": 27093, "ParentID": 27074 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Smith, Elaine", "ID": 1769, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Coatbridge and Chryston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Smith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "22. Elaine Smith (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 512.0, "ContributionID": 711941, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what level of provision is made throughout Scotland in secondary schools for pupils with speech and language impairments. (S1O-617) The Deputy Minister for Children and Education (Peter Peacock): That information is not collected centrally. The grant-aided expenditure for local authorities has been doubled to £6.5 million per year from April 1999 for speech and language therapy services for pupils with records of needs.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what level of provision is made throughout Scotland in secondary schools for pupils with speech and language impairments. (S1O-617) The Deputy Minister for Children and Education (Peter Peacock): That information is not collected centrally. The grant-aided expenditure for local authorities has been doubled to £6.5 million per year from April 1999 for speech and language therapy services for pupils with records of needs.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C711944", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27094, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 518.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27095, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 519.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meeting)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27096, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 520.0, "DisplayOrder": 520.0, "ID": 27096, "ParentID": 27095 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "1. Mr Alex Salmond (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 521.0, "ContributionID": 711944, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive when the First Minister last met the Secretary of State for Scotland and what issues were discussed. (S1O612) The First Minister (Donald Dewar): I met the Secretary of State yesterday. We discussed a number of very serious issues, in particular whether Neil McCann should play from the start. Laughter. On that weighty issue, as on so many others, we were at one. Last night's match was very exciting and satisfying. It was the last international match that will ever be played under the twin towers of Wembley, and we won.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive when the First Minister last met the Secretary of State for Scotland and what issues were discussed. (S1O612) The First Minister (Donald Dewar): I met the Secretary of State yesterday. We discussed a number of very serious issues, in particular whether Neil McCann should play from the start. [Laughter.] On that weighty issue, as on so many others, we were at one. Last night's match was very exciting and satisfying. It was the last international match that will ever be played under the twin towers of Wembley, and we won.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C711947", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27094, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 518.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27095, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 519.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meeting)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27096, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 520.0, "DisplayOrder": 520.0, "ID": 27096, "ParentID": 27095 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 527.0, "ContributionID": 711947, "EditedText": "The cardinal has also noted—this chamber will surely agree—that this is an offensive act, and that discrimination against Catholics or anyone else has no place in a modern constitution. When the Scotland Act 1998 provided for us to discuss any matter, was it not so that this Parliament, on a cross-party basis, could take a lead in securing change and reform on an issue such as this, which has remained unreformed for far too long?", "EditedTextHTML": "The cardinal has also noted—this chamber will surely agree—that this is an offensive act, and that discrimination against Catholics or anyone else has no place in a modern constitution. When the Scotland Act 1998 provided for us to discuss any matter, was it not so that this Parliament, on a cross-party basis, could take a lead in securing change and reform on an issue such as this, which has remained unreformed for far too long?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C711948", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27094, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 518.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27095, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 519.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meeting)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27096, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 520.0, "DisplayOrder": 520.0, "ID": 27096, "ParentID": 27095 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 529.0, "ContributionID": 711948, "EditedText": "I think that everybody in this chamber is united against any form of prejudice. Certainly the most vicious form is active and current prejudice. This is something that we have inherited from the past. Alex Salmond will accept that it is a complex matter. It has been said on a number of occasions that the legislative consequences, in terms of the tour around the Commonwealth, would be extensive, and there are links into other matters in our constitutional settlement that would require careful negotiation and discussion. Of course, the Scottish Parliament has the power to talk about issues outwith its remit, although there is a general agreement that we would do so only in exceptional circumstances.", "EditedTextHTML": "I think that everybody in this chamber is united against any form of prejudice. Certainly the most vicious form is active and current prejudice. This is something that we have inherited from the past. Alex Salmond will accept that it is a complex matter.

It has been said on a number of occasions that the legislative consequences, in terms of the tour around the Commonwealth, would be extensive, and there are links into other matters in our constitutional settlement that would require careful negotiation and discussion.

Of course, the Scottish Parliament has the power to talk about issues outwith its remit, although there is a general agreement that we would do so only in exceptional circumstances.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711950", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27094, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 518.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27095, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 519.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meeting)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27096, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 520.0, "DisplayOrder": 520.0, "ID": 27096, "ParentID": 27095 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 533.0, "ContributionID": 711950, "EditedText": "I am sorry to interrupt you, Mr Gorrie, but your comments are not related to the first question. I will have to call Margo MacDonald instead. The questions must relate to discussions with the Secretary of State for Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry to interrupt you, Mr Gorrie, but your comments are not related to the first question. I will have to call Margo MacDonald instead. The questions must relate to discussions with the Secretary of State for Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1828E200P487C711951", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27094, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 518.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27095, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 519.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meeting)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27096, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 520.0, "DisplayOrder": 520.0, "ID": 27096, "ParentID": 27095 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacDonald, Margo", "ID": 1828, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margo MacDonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Margo MacDonald (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 535.0, "ContributionID": 711951, "EditedText": "Although my question may appear to be tangential, Presiding Officer—Laughter.", "EditedTextHTML": "Although my question may appear to be tangential, Presiding Officer—[Laughter.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1828E200P487C711953", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27094, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 518.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27095, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 519.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meeting)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27096, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 520.0, "DisplayOrder": 520.0, "ID": 27096, "ParentID": 27095 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacDonald, Margo", "ID": 1828, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margo MacDonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms MacDonald: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 539.0, "ContributionID": 711953, "EditedText": "It concerns an area of discrimination. Will the First Minister tell us whether he has made representations to Her Majesty's Government—and in particular, to the Secretary of State for Scotland—on the reasons for the proposed changes to legislation covering the prevention of terrorism, including nationalists in Scotland?", "EditedTextHTML": "It concerns an area of discrimination. Will the First Minister tell us whether he has made representations to Her Majesty's Government—and in particular, to the Secretary of State for Scotland—on the reasons for the proposed changes to legislation covering the prevention of terrorism, including nationalists in Scotland?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C711961", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27094, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 518.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27095, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 519.0, "QuestionHeading": "Prime Minister (Meeting)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27097, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 545.0, "DisplayOrder": 545.0, "ID": 27097, "ParentID": 27095 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 556.0, "ContributionID": 711961, "EditedText": "That was a decision for which the Executive had failed to plan properly, although it had long been expected, and was a direct result of its policy.", "EditedTextHTML": "That was a decision for which the Executive had failed to plan properly, although it had long been expected, and was a direct result of its policy.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711965", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27094, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 518.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27095, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 519.0, "QuestionHeading": "Prime Minister (Meeting)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27097, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 545.0, "DisplayOrder": 545.0, "ID": 27097, "ParentID": 27095 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 564.0, "ContributionID": 711965, "EditedText": "Supplementary questions are supposed to be about the discussion between the First Minister and the Prime Minister.", "EditedTextHTML": "Supplementary questions are supposed to be about the discussion between the First Minister and the Prime Minister.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1768E72P274C711969", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27094, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 518.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27095, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 519.0, "QuestionHeading": "Anti-social Neighbour Orders", "QuestionHeadingID": 27098, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 570.0, "DisplayOrder": 570.0, "ID": 27098, "ParentID": 27095 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Murray, Elaine", "ID": 1768, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumfries" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Murray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Murray: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 573.0, "ContributionID": 711969, "EditedText": "Is the minister aware that many councils have yet to use the powers that have been provided to them by the legislation, which came into force in April this year? Is she further aware of the misery that the anti-social behaviour of a few residents causes their many law-abiding neighbours? I have had constituents in tears on the phone and at my surgeries because of the stress caused by nuisance neighbours. There is an allegation that one of my constituents might have committed suicide because of the stress caused by the problem. What will the Executive do to persuade local authorities to use the powers that they have been given?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is the minister aware that many councils have yet to use the powers that have been provided to them by the legislation, which came into force in April this year? Is she further aware of the misery that the anti-social behaviour of a few residents causes their many law-abiding neighbours?

I have had constituents in tears on the phone and at my surgeries because of the stress caused by nuisance neighbours. There is an allegation that one of my constituents might have committed suicide because of the stress caused by the problem. What will the Executive do to persuade local authorities to use the powers that they have been given?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1873E89P171C711973", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27094, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 518.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27095, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 519.0, "QuestionHeading": "Anti-social Neighbour Orders", "QuestionHeadingID": 27098, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 570.0, "DisplayOrder": 570.0, "ID": 27098, "ParentID": 27095 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jackson, Dr Sylvia", "ID": 1873, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Stirling" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sylvia Jackson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Sylvia Jackson (Stirling) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 581.0, "ContributionID": 711973, "EditedText": "Will the minister investigate anti-social behaviour orders in relation to private sector housing? In the Stirling Council area, there is little or no financial provision for that work.", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister investigate anti-social behaviour orders in relation to private sector housing? In the Stirling Council area, there is little or no financial provision for that work.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C711978", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27094, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 518.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27095, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 519.0, "QuestionHeading": "Anti-social Neighbour Orders", "QuestionHeadingID": 27098, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 570.0, "DisplayOrder": 570.0, "ID": 27098, "ParentID": 27095 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister (Donald Dewar): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 591.0, "ContributionID": 711978, "EditedText": "The Deputy Minister for Justice is in Ireland today with a crowded and long-arranged agenda, trying to learn some lessons about drug enforcement that may or may not be applicable in Scotland. I thought that it would be wrong to pull him out of that engagement. I am not aware that any of the Lord Advocate's answers would prejudice any of his responsibilities.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Deputy Minister for Justice is in Ireland today with a crowded and long-arranged agenda, trying to learn some lessons about drug enforcement that may or may not be applicable in Scotland. I thought that it would be wrong to pull him out of that engagement. I am not aware that any of the Lord Advocate's answers would prejudice any of his responsibilities.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C711979", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27094, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 518.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27095, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 519.0, "QuestionHeading": "Anti-social Neighbour Orders", "QuestionHeadingID": 27098, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 570.0, "DisplayOrder": 570.0, "ID": 27098, "ParentID": 27095 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Alex Salmond (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 593.0, "ContributionID": 711979, "EditedText": "Further to that point of order, Presiding Officer. We dispute neither the legitimate reasons for the Deputy Minister for Justice being in Ireland nor the personal reasons for the Deputy First Minister not being in the chamber. However, if there is a point of principle at stake, it should be dealt with. If ministers are absent for good reason, perhaps the First Minister should answer certain questions instead of the Lord Advocate moving into policy matters.", "EditedTextHTML": "Further to that point of order, Presiding Officer. We dispute neither the legitimate reasons for the Deputy Minister for Justice being in Ireland nor the personal reasons for the Deputy First Minister not being in the chamber. However, if there is a point of principle at stake, it should be dealt with. If ministers are absent for good reason, perhaps the First Minister should answer certain questions instead of the Lord Advocate moving into policy matters.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2167E79P155C711983", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Digital Scotland", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27099, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 599.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 599.0, "ID": 27099, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Peacock, Peter", "ID": 2167, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Peter Peacock", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Children and Education (Peter Peacock): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 603.0, "ContributionID": 711983, "EditedText": "It is a great pleasure to open today's debate on digital Scotland. We have the rest of the afternoon to debate the most profound and fundamental change impacting on our society. That change will bring about huge new social, educational and business opportunities, will fundamentally change how we as consumers obtain public and private services, will empower current and future generations by giving them the information better to exercise the life choices that they will face as they progress through life, and will alter the way in which much of our society operates. There is no doubt that the development of digital and communications technologies is having and will continue to have the most profound effect and implications for us all. Technological developments that only a few years ago existed only in the minds of technologists, such as Bill Gates, today are commonplace and all-pervasive. We now have the capacity as a society to digitise all information, sound and visual images. More than that, we have the technology to communicate that digital information across the globe almost instantaneously and in volumes that hitherto were unimaginable. The combination of digital information with communications technology will be as powerful a force of transformation in our society as the invention of the wheel or the industrial revolution in their time. Most of us who, in recent years, have begun to use e-mail and the internet are beginning to realise the potential that exists. The Parliament has begun—but only just—by providing 100 per cent e-mail access to members of the Parliament, which, I gather, is unique in the world. As we become more familiar with the technologies, we will be better able to see and to grasp the wider opportunities that will exist in the future, not just in this Parliament, but across the range of activities in our society. As a society, we already use technologies to communicate faster and more widely with friends, family and those with whom we share interests, wherever they are across the globe. We use technology to access and research information and, increasingly, to select and purchase goods and services in a way that was unimaginable only a few years ago. In entertainment, computer games gross more today than the film industry. With the power of modern communications, computer games are no longer just for the individual: teams and alliances are being formed across the globe to collaborate and compete. Scotland is a world leader in such new forms of entertainment. For those who disapprove of such frivolous pastimes, the next generation of computer game consoles, which is just coming on to the market, will offer internet access in a way that has never been seen before. That will open up the world of information and learning to a new, mass audience. Increasingly, more and more of the services that we enjoy as citizens will be delivered to us electronically through our personal computers, games machines, digital televisions, mobile phones or a combination of those media, as technologies converge and take new forms. The development of smart card technology adds a further dimension to those devices, allowing information and services to be personalised to meet particular individual needs. That will open up a new range of possibilities for the delivery of public services to help people to deal with the episodes of their lives. To many people, the vision of a future in which digital communications technology is so pervasive and plays such a major role in the lives of all citizens is deeply challenging. Many people worry about the impact, but the lessons of history tell us that, as a society, we adapt and develop to exploit the technologies that come our way and to turn them to our advantage. At this time, there is a need for Scotland to embrace with enthusiasm the opportunities and possibilities that arise from the digital communications technologies. Those technologies are fundamental to our ability as a country to compete with the rest of the world. If we in Scotland fail to embrace the emerging technologies and to adapt to them it can be guaranteed that others will grasp the opportunities and will adapt and that Scotland will fail by comparison. Involving ourselves with the latest digital communications technologies is not an option—it is a necessity. I hope that on that point, at least, we are united. I am sure that all parties in the chamber want to ensure that Scotland benefits from the technologies that are now available. If we succeed in embracing with enthusiasm the opportunities that the digital and communications technologies offer, we will succeed economically and internationally and we will be able to offer all Scots better public services that are delivered more quickly, more efficiently and more cost- effectively than hitherto. For many of us, the difficulty in dealing with this subject is not understanding the technology, but dealing with the limits of our own imagination of what is possible using the technologies that are available. However, technology brings with it huge challenges. How, for example, can we ensure that all Scots, wherever they live and whatever their social circumstances, have access to the new technologies? How do we make the technologies work for inclusion? How do we ensure that public sector service provision mirrors best practice in the private sector, to ensure that we set a standard for expectations of the public sector in this sphere of activity? How do we equip our teachers to adapt their teaching and learning support styles to utilise fully the potential of new technologies? How do we recruit the Scottish expertise in computer games design into the world of education, making sure that our learning materials are as interesting and exciting as our games? That might create new markets in edutainment, and would build on Scotland's international reputation for games and education. How do we guarantee the maintenance of public archives and records when they are freely available on the internet? How do we catalogue, organise and make available public information in a coherent way, when it crosses departmental boundaries in central Government and between levels of government? How do we make this Parliament an example of all that is best in the use of technology, to help lead Scotland into the bold future that many of us envisage? The Executive is now applying itself fully to rising to those challenges. It recognises that, for Scotland to play its full part and to compete in the modern world, we need to be at the forefront in our use of digital communications technology, and it is our clear intention to ensure that that is the case. We have a strong ambition to see a digital Scotland that embraces the technologies comfortably and with enthusiasm, which applies those technologies to every aspect of our society, which ensures that every part of our community participates and benefits, and where no part is excluded for reason of geographic or social isolation. Such is the ambition of the Executive that we have taken a number of key actions at the most senior levels to ensure that matters progress. Digitising Scotland is up there along with drugs, social inclusion and rural development and has been identified as one of the four key cross-cutting issues that impact on every aspect of Scottish life and of government, to which the Executive wants to give particular attention. It therefore requires co-ordinated action across all areas of Government policy and administration. The Cabinet has established a ministerial group comprising the Minister for Children and Education, the Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning, the Minister for Communities, the Minister for Rural Affairs, the Minister for Health and Community Care, the Minister for Finance and myself. It also involves key officials from across the Scottish Executive. It will report regularly to the full Scottish Cabinet on all the issues that I have mentioned and on all potential developments. The Executive recognises, however, that it is vital that we draw expertise from across the Scottish community, outwith the ranks of Government, into our considerations. We have therefore established a digital Scotland task force. I am delighted that Crawford Beveridge has agreed to chair the task force jointly with me and to act as a champion of the digital technologies in Scotland. The members of the task force represent a wide range of expertise from across Scotland and beyond. They include BT, Scottish Telecom, ntl, Microsoft, Cisco Systems, IBM, ICL, Apple, Oracle, the Internet Society, the Scottish Library and Information Council, the Scottish Council for Educational Technology, the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities, and representatives of this Parliament and of Napier University, among other university representatives.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is a great pleasure to open today's debate on digital Scotland. We have the rest of the afternoon to debate the most profound and fundamental change impacting on our society. That change will bring about huge new social, educational and business opportunities, will fundamentally change how we as consumers obtain public and private services, will empower current and future generations by giving them the information better to exercise the life choices that they will face as they progress through life, and will alter the way in which much of our society operates.

There is no doubt that the development of digital and communications technologies is having and will continue to have the most profound effect and implications for us all. Technological developments that only a few years ago existed only in the minds of technologists, such as Bill Gates, today are commonplace and all-pervasive. We now have the capacity as a society to digitise all information, sound and visual images. More than that, we have the technology to communicate that digital information across the globe almost instantaneously and in volumes that hitherto were unimaginable. The combination of digital information with communications technology will be as powerful a force of transformation in our society as the invention of the wheel or the industrial revolution in their time.

Most of us who, in recent years, have begun to use e-mail and the internet are beginning to realise the potential that exists. The Parliament has begun—but only just—by providing 100 per cent e-mail access to members of the Parliament, which, I gather, is unique in the world. As we become more familiar with the technologies, we will be better able to see and to grasp the wider opportunities that will exist in the future, not just in this Parliament, but across the range of activities in our society.

As a society, we already use technologies to communicate faster and more widely with friends, family and those with whom we share interests, wherever they are across the globe. We use technology to access and research information and, increasingly, to select and purchase goods and services in a way that was unimaginable only a few years ago. In entertainment, computer games gross more today than the film industry. With the power of modern communications, computer games are no longer just for the individual: teams and alliances are being formed across the globe to collaborate and compete. Scotland is a world leader in such new forms of entertainment.

For those who disapprove of such frivolous pastimes, the next generation of computer game consoles, which is just coming on to the market, will offer internet access in a way that has never been seen before. That will open up the world of information and learning to a new, mass audience.

Increasingly, more and more of the services that we enjoy as citizens will be delivered to us electronically through our personal computers, games machines, digital televisions, mobile phones or a combination of those media, as technologies converge and take new forms.

The development of smart card technology adds a further dimension to those devices, allowing information and services to be personalised to meet particular individual needs. That will open up a new range of possibilities for the delivery of public services to help people to deal with the episodes of their lives.

To many people, the vision of a future in which digital communications technology is so pervasive and plays such a major role in the lives of all citizens is deeply challenging. Many people worry about the impact, but the lessons of history tell us that, as a society, we adapt and develop to exploit the technologies that come our way and to turn them to our advantage.

At this time, there is a need for Scotland to embrace with enthusiasm the opportunities and possibilities that arise from the digital communications technologies. Those technologies are fundamental to our ability as a country to compete with the rest of the world. If we in Scotland fail to embrace the emerging technologies and to adapt to them it can be guaranteed that others will grasp the opportunities and will adapt and that Scotland will fail by comparison.

Involving ourselves with the latest digital communications technologies is not an option—it

is a necessity. I hope that on that point, at least, we are united. I am sure that all parties in the chamber want to ensure that Scotland benefits from the technologies that are now available.

If we succeed in embracing with enthusiasm the opportunities that the digital and communications technologies offer, we will succeed economically and internationally and we will be able to offer all Scots better public services that are delivered more quickly, more efficiently and more cost- effectively than hitherto.

For many of us, the difficulty in dealing with this subject is not understanding the technology, but dealing with the limits of our own imagination of what is possible using the technologies that are available.

However, technology brings with it huge challenges. How, for example, can we ensure that all Scots, wherever they live and whatever their social circumstances, have access to the new technologies? How do we make the technologies work for inclusion? How do we ensure that public sector service provision mirrors best practice in the private sector, to ensure that we set a standard for expectations of the public sector in this sphere of activity?

How do we equip our teachers to adapt their teaching and learning support styles to utilise fully the potential of new technologies? How do we recruit the Scottish expertise in computer games design into the world of education, making sure that our learning materials are as interesting and exciting as our games? That might create new markets in edutainment, and would build on Scotland's international reputation for games and education.

How do we guarantee the maintenance of public archives and records when they are freely available on the internet? How do we catalogue, organise and make available public information in a coherent way, when it crosses departmental boundaries in central Government and between levels of government? How do we make this Parliament an example of all that is best in the use of technology, to help lead Scotland into the bold future that many of us envisage?

The Executive is now applying itself fully to rising to those challenges. It recognises that, for Scotland to play its full part and to compete in the modern world, we need to be at the forefront in our use of digital communications technology, and it is our clear intention to ensure that that is the case. We have a strong ambition to see a digital Scotland that embraces the technologies comfortably and with enthusiasm, which applies those technologies to every aspect of our society, which ensures that every part of our community participates and benefits, and where no part is excluded for reason of geographic or social isolation.

Such is the ambition of the Executive that we have taken a number of key actions at the most senior levels to ensure that matters progress. Digitising Scotland is up there along with drugs, social inclusion and rural development and has been identified as one of the four key cross-cutting issues that impact on every aspect of Scottish life and of government, to which the Executive wants to give particular attention. It therefore requires co-ordinated action across all areas of Government policy and administration.

The Cabinet has established a ministerial group comprising the Minister for Children and Education, the Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning, the Minister for Communities, the Minister for Rural Affairs, the Minister for Health and Community Care, the Minister for Finance and myself. It also involves key officials from across the Scottish Executive. It will report regularly to the full Scottish Cabinet on all the issues that I have mentioned and on all potential developments.

The Executive recognises, however, that it is vital that we draw expertise from across the Scottish community, outwith the ranks of Government, into our considerations. We have therefore established a digital Scotland task force.

I am delighted that Crawford Beveridge has agreed to chair the task force jointly with me and to act as a champion of the digital technologies in Scotland. The members of the task force represent a wide range of expertise from across Scotland and beyond. They include BT, Scottish Telecom, ntl, Microsoft, Cisco Systems, IBM, ICL, Apple, Oracle, the Internet Society, the Scottish Library and Information Council, the Scottish Council for Educational Technology, the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities, and representatives of this Parliament and of Napier University, among other university representatives.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1814E135P516C711984", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Digital Scotland", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27099, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 599.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 599.0, "ID": 27099, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Fabiani, Linda", "ID": 1814, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Linda Fabiani", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Linda Fabiani (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 605.0, "ContributionID": 711984, "EditedText": "What is the Scottish Executive's defined remit for membership of the task force? Will the membership remain the same for the duration of its activities?", "EditedTextHTML": "What is the Scottish Executive's defined remit for membership of the task force? Will the membership remain the same for the duration of its activities?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2167E79P155C711985", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Digital Scotland", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27099, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 599.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 599.0, "ID": 27099, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Peacock, Peter", "ID": 2167, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Peter Peacock", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Peter Peacock: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 607.0, "ContributionID": 711985, "EditedText": "From the outset, we tried to involve the people who we think are key players in the different sectors, whether in providing the infrastructure for the technologies or in providing some of the content for their use; whether it is those who write software; or whether it is those who provide information on the current situation. We are trying to make the task force as inclusive as we can—it is not a closed list. If there are more people who we feel can contribute to the continuing debate, we are more than willing to consider names. I am still trying to keep the task force to a manageable size as it gets on with its work. If Linda Fabiani has any suggestions, I will be more than happy to hear from her. Under the banner of the digital Scotland initiative, our aim is to co-ordinate digital technology and communications activities across government, and to review progress and adjust priorities if and when necessary. We wish to ensure best value for our public investments; to look out for gaps or weaknesses in infrastructure and ensure that they are filled; to communicate to the people of Scotland the importance of digital technologies; to help excite the people of Scotland about the opportunities of the digital age; and to help set out an ambition for the kind of Scotland we could live in: more decentralised, more competitive, better educated, better informed and much more inclusive. We are currently engaging with the major telecoms providers to examine Scotland's infrastructure needs and to determine what requires to be done to ensure that our ambitions and objectives can be met and will not be frustrated. We are giving more priority in the agenda to the need for top-quality content in the fields of public information and service provision where more traditional mechanisms are currently used. We have joined our colleagues in the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities, who share our ambitions and our desire to see a fully co-ordinated public information service. We are exploring the scope for collaboration across the private and public sectors in the development of educational software, which will utilise the insights and skills of games producers. We are examining issues concerning intellectual property rights and copyright, the organisation of information, the potential licensing of information use, joint purchasing arrangements that might be necessary to secure the supply of information and joint protocols between information providers. I am pleased to say that I have asked the Scottish Library and Information Council to offer specific advice to me on the latter. Much is happening already to digitise Government services and to gain the benefits of digital technologies for Scotland, but there is much still to do. Within Scotland, with the aid of the Scottish and UK Governments, there are myriad initiatives. Higher education is well advanced in utilising broadband technologies to communicate information and data sets between institutions across Scotland, and they are well connected to one another and to the wider world. Further education colleges have investment programmes to help them catch up and to use the higher education infrastructure in the process of widening their services and the availability of resources for their students. Schools, libraries, arts centres and museums are beginning to be connected to the internet and to one another. We want to see an increased use of broadband technology in such institutions, to ensure that there are no frustrations of capacity in the system to prevent us from doing what we want to do. The Scottish university for industry will use the technology extensively in an innovative way, to allow people access to knowledge and to teaching and learning in ways that have not been seen before. Major projects in the knowledge economy and e-commerce, which were doubtless debated this morning, are also under way, promoting the ability of Scotland's small and medium enterprises—and all other enterprises—to participate more fully in e-commerce and to gain the benefits of so doing. The modernising government initiative will use technology to transform the delivery of Government services across the board. There are initiatives in health, criminal justice, transport and the environment and so on. In social inclusion, there are bold new initiatives and experiments. We are trying to provide new ways of ensuring that people in the most deprived communities in Scotland have access to the same ranges of technology and opportunity as those in higher- income groups in our society. There is already evidence from the recent household studies in Scotland that the wealthiest have more access to the current technologies and to the new technologies as they emerge than those who are less well-off. We must address that systematically and, through the social inclusion programmes, we are doing so. The private sector has its own momentum and, in parts, is moving forward apace, setting new standards and raising new expectations of how services will be delivered in future. Initiatives such as those in e-commerce demonstrate our desire to help those who are not yet participating to do so. Digital technologies are all-pervasive: they affect all countries and all regions, and societies need to respond comprehensively. The Executive has recognised the need for Scotland to be at the forefront of the digital technology revolution. We have a clear ambition to get there and we want to excite Scotland about the possibilities. We have put in place the mechanisms within Government to ensure that we are co-ordinating our efforts to get best value for our investments and to stimulate private sector investment. We want to work in partnership with others to achieve those aims. There needs to be a unity of purpose across all of Scottish life to ensure that we get to the forefront and that we stay there. There is great good will in the Scottish community to play its part. I hope that in this Parliament we will display our collective commitment to a Scotland at the leading edge of a digital world. I commend the motion to the Parliament. I move,That the Parliament recognises the crucial importance to Scotland's economic and social well-being of embracing and making full use of new developments in digital information and communications technology; believes that Scotland must seize the opportunities offered to gain competitive economic advantage, enhance learning opportunities for all, open up information resources to every citizen, and offer modern and efficient public services; believes that every community in Scotland must have high quality access to digital technology and information in the future no matter where they live; and welcomes the creation by the Executive of the Ministerial Committee on Digital Scotland and the Digital Scotland Task Force to create a partnership which will help develop a shared analysis of the challenges and champion the opportunities for Scotland arising from developments in information and communications technology, co-ordinate action and help to create conditions where Scotland can realise the benefits of working at the leading edge of application of those technological developments.", "EditedTextHTML": "From the outset, we tried to involve the people who we think are key players in the different sectors, whether in providing the infrastructure for the technologies or in providing some of the content for their use; whether it is those who write software; or whether it is those who provide information on the current situation. We are trying to make the task force as inclusive as we can—it is not a closed list. If there are more people who we feel can contribute to the continuing debate, we are more than willing to consider names. I am still trying to keep the task

force to a manageable size as it gets on with its work. If Linda Fabiani has any suggestions, I will be more than happy to hear from her.

Under the banner of the digital Scotland initiative, our aim is to co-ordinate digital technology and communications activities across government, and to review progress and adjust priorities if and when necessary. We wish to ensure best value for our public investments; to look out for gaps or weaknesses in infrastructure and ensure that they are filled; to communicate to the people of Scotland the importance of digital technologies; to help excite the people of Scotland about the opportunities of the digital age; and to help set out an ambition for the kind of Scotland we could live in: more decentralised, more competitive, better educated, better informed and much more inclusive.

We are currently engaging with the major telecoms providers to examine Scotland's infrastructure needs and to determine what requires to be done to ensure that our ambitions and objectives can be met and will not be frustrated.

We are giving more priority in the agenda to the need for top-quality content in the fields of public information and service provision where more traditional mechanisms are currently used. We have joined our colleagues in the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities, who share our ambitions and our desire to see a fully co-ordinated public information service. We are exploring the scope for collaboration across the private and public sectors in the development of educational software, which will utilise the insights and skills of games producers. We are examining issues concerning intellectual property rights and copyright, the organisation of information, the potential licensing of information use, joint purchasing arrangements that might be necessary to secure the supply of information and joint protocols between information providers. I am pleased to say that I have asked the Scottish Library and Information Council to offer specific advice to me on the latter.

Much is happening already to digitise Government services and to gain the benefits of digital technologies for Scotland, but there is much still to do. Within Scotland, with the aid of the Scottish and UK Governments, there are myriad initiatives. Higher education is well advanced in utilising broadband technologies to communicate information and data sets between institutions across Scotland, and they are well connected to one another and to the wider world. Further education colleges have investment programmes to help them catch up and to use the higher education infrastructure in the process of widening their services and the availability of resources for their students. Schools, libraries, arts centres and museums are beginning to be connected to the internet and to one another. We want to see an increased use of broadband technology in such institutions, to ensure that there are no frustrations of capacity in the system to prevent us from doing what we want to do.

The Scottish university for industry will use the technology extensively in an innovative way, to allow people access to knowledge and to teaching and learning in ways that have not been seen before. Major projects in the knowledge economy and e-commerce, which were doubtless debated this morning, are also under way, promoting the ability of Scotland's small and medium enterprises—and all other enterprises—to participate more fully in e-commerce and to gain the benefits of so doing.

The modernising government initiative will use technology to transform the delivery of Government services across the board. There are initiatives in health, criminal justice, transport and the environment and so on. In social inclusion, there are bold new initiatives and experiments. We are trying to provide new ways of ensuring that people in the most deprived communities in Scotland have access to the same ranges of technology and opportunity as those in higher- income groups in our society. There is already evidence from the recent household studies in Scotland that the wealthiest have more access to the current technologies and to the new technologies as they emerge than those who are less well-off. We must address that systematically and, through the social inclusion programmes, we are doing so.

The private sector has its own momentum and, in parts, is moving forward apace, setting new standards and raising new expectations of how services will be delivered in future. Initiatives such as those in e-commerce demonstrate our desire to help those who are not yet participating to do so.

Digital technologies are all-pervasive: they affect all countries and all regions, and societies need to respond comprehensively. The Executive has recognised the need for Scotland to be at the forefront of the digital technology revolution. We have a clear ambition to get there and we want to excite Scotland about the possibilities. We have put in place the mechanisms within Government to ensure that we are co-ordinating our efforts to get best value for our investments and to stimulate private sector investment. We want to work in partnership with others to achieve those aims.

There needs to be a unity of purpose across all of Scottish life to ensure that we get to the forefront and that we stay there. There is great good will in the Scottish community to play its part. I hope that in this Parliament we will display our

collective commitment to a Scotland at the leading edge of a digital world. I commend the motion to the Parliament.

I move,

That the Parliament recognises the crucial importance to Scotland's economic and social well-being of embracing and making full use of new developments in digital information and communications technology; believes that Scotland must seize the opportunities offered to gain competitive economic advantage, enhance learning opportunities for all, open up information resources to every citizen, and offer modern and efficient public services; believes that every community in Scotland must have high quality access to digital technology and information in the future no matter where they live; and welcomes the creation by the Executive of the Ministerial Committee on Digital Scotland and the Digital Scotland Task Force to create a partnership which will help develop a shared analysis of the challenges and champion the opportunities for Scotland arising from developments in information and communications technology, co-ordinate action and help to create conditions where Scotland can realise the benefits of working at the leading edge of application of those technological developments.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1840E82P158C711987", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Digital Scotland", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27099, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 599.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 599.0, "ID": 27099, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macmillan, Maureen", "ID": 1840, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Maureen Macmillan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Maureen Macmillan (Highlands and Islands) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 612.0, "ContributionID": 711987, "EditedText": "The Scottish National party's education spokesperson said that the national grid for learning was a gimmick and an idea whose time had not yet come. Is it still the party's policy to scrap the national grid for learning?", "EditedTextHTML": "The Scottish National party's education spokesperson said that the national grid for learning was a gimmick and an idea whose time had not yet come. Is it still the party's policy to scrap the national grid for learning?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C711997", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Digital Scotland", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27099, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 599.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 599.0, "ID": 27099, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Davidson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 634.0, "ContributionID": 711997, "EditedText": "There was an assumption, although it was not a specific item in the manifesto, that technology was part of our industry policy and has been for many years.", "EditedTextHTML": "There was an assumption, although it was not a specific item in the manifesto, that technology was part of our industry policy and has been for many years.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C711992", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Digital Scotland", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27099, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 599.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 599.0, "ID": 27099, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Davidson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 623.0, "ContributionID": 711992, "EditedText": "One cannot run out a prescribed programme in that way. One must go into each company, and that is why we need to use the enterprise network. The principle is good, but the suggested method for rolling out is not. Advice must be deliverable locally in a way that is suited to the particular operation. One cannot prescribe from a distance. That is why I talked about impartial advice rather than formal advice. Michael Russell (South of Scotland) (SNP)rose—", "EditedTextHTML": "One cannot run out a prescribed programme in that way. One must go into each company, and that is why we need to use the enterprise network. The principle is good, but the suggested method for rolling out is not. Advice must be deliverable locally in a way that is suited to the particular operation. One cannot prescribe from a distance. That is why I talked about impartial advice rather than formal advice.

Michael Russell (South of Scotland) (SNP)

rose—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C711993", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Digital Scotland", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27099, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 599.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 599.0, "ID": 27099, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Davidson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 625.0, "ContributionID": 711993, "EditedText": "I have to move on because time is short this afternoon. E-commerce raises several issues that must be addressed centrally: security of information; privacy; intellectual property, which the minister has already mentioned; and changes in contract law to give e-transactions some legal status, albeit under strict protocols. I think that that is what Peter Peacock was hinting at, but he should come back to the chamber with definite proposals. There is a huge area of legal complexities that we must grasp if we are to make e-commerce work safely. All those measures must be underpinned by adequate consumer protection. Like everyone else, I am bombarded with letters asking when there will be an initiative to stop spam deluging the system. I will leave that question for the minister to consider in his spare time. The Minister for Communities talked about a digital divide in terms of social inclusion, but that divide also exists in different areas of Scottish business. That is something else that we must recognise and deal with. As we approach the digital future, we must remember that three months of our time is the equivalent of a year in the web world. The rate of development is very speedy indeed and Government must get its thinking up to that kind of speed if it is to roll out any kind of programme. We must also consider obsolescence in equipment and software, which poses investment problems. We have mentioned lead times, but who is going to put it all together? There is a digital task force and I welcome Crawford Beveridge's input to it, but I am devastated that there is nobody on that task force to represent the ultimate user in the business arena. That is a bad omission so early on in the project and it sends out totally wrong signals. I have mentioned the cost of provision. Many people are happy to bid to supply the major centres of population, but how will the Government ensure that the roll-out of the infrastructure takes it to all parts of Scotland? We have seen that the roll-out of the latest telephone technology has not included places such as the north-east of Scotland. With e-mail, we can work anywhere. It offers a huge opportunity for employment in our many remote areas. It is also important to consider ways of levelling the cost of access and of on-going provision. I assume that Peter Peacock and Henry McLeish will be involved in that sensitive negotiation. It must be carried out, because, in this modern world, one cannot expect the private sector to pour money into a project from which there will be no return. There must be creative partnerships to ensure that the minister's fine words about everybody getting hold of digital technology can be rolled out. We need a guarantee from the Executive that, in all processes, all task forces and all initiatives, there will be a totally inclusive approach to seeking access to digital connection for all parts of Scotland. The Conservatives recognise the opportunities that are offered to our economy, education and training, but we also recognise the social and democratic benefits of a well-planned digital future for Scotland that incorporates real partnership between the public and private sectors.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have to move on because time is short this afternoon.

E-commerce raises several issues that must be addressed centrally: security of information; privacy; intellectual property, which the minister has already mentioned; and changes in contract law to give e-transactions some legal status, albeit under strict protocols. I think that that is what Peter Peacock was hinting at, but he should come back to the chamber with definite proposals. There is a huge area of legal complexities that we must grasp if we are to make e-commerce work safely.

All those measures must be underpinned by adequate consumer protection. Like everyone else, I am bombarded with letters asking when there will be an initiative to stop spam deluging the system. I will leave that question for the minister to consider in his spare time.

The Minister for Communities talked about a digital divide in terms of social inclusion, but that divide also exists in different areas of Scottish business. That is something else that we must recognise and deal with.

As we approach the digital future, we must remember that three months of our time is the equivalent of a year in the web world. The rate of development is very speedy indeed and Government must get its thinking up to that kind of speed if it is to roll out any kind of programme.

We must also consider obsolescence in equipment and software, which poses investment problems. We have mentioned lead times, but who is going to put it all together? There is a digital task force and I welcome Crawford Beveridge's input to it, but I am devastated that there is nobody on that task force to represent the ultimate user in the business arena. That is a bad omission so early on in the project and it sends out totally wrong signals.

I have mentioned the cost of provision. Many people are happy to bid to supply the major centres of population, but how will the Government ensure that the roll-out of the infrastructure takes it to all parts of Scotland? We have seen that the roll-out of the latest telephone technology has not included places such as the north-east of Scotland.

With e-mail, we can work anywhere. It offers a huge opportunity for employment in our many remote areas. It is also important to consider ways of levelling the cost of access and of on-going provision. I assume that Peter Peacock and Henry McLeish will be involved in that sensitive negotiation. It must be carried out, because, in this modern world, one cannot expect the private sector to pour money into a project from which there will be no return. There must be creative partnerships to ensure that the minister's fine words about everybody getting hold of digital technology can be rolled out.

We need a guarantee from the Executive that, in all processes, all task forces and all initiatives, there will be a totally inclusive approach to seeking access to digital connection for all parts of Scotland. The Conservatives recognise the opportunities that are offered to our economy, education and training, but we also recognise the social and democratic benefits of a well-planned digital future for Scotland that incorporates real partnership between the public and private sectors.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2044E178P334C711996", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Digital Scotland", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27099, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 599.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 599.0, "ID": 27099, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jenkins, Ian", "ID": 2044, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ian Jenkins", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ian Jenkins: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 632.0, "ContributionID": 711996, "EditedText": "No, it is too deeply embedded. You think that this is a joke, Michael? I find it uncomfortable, but if we do not move with the times we are in serious economic and social jeopardy. Speaking for the Scottish Liberal Democrats, I therefore warmly welcome the minister's remarks and endorse the motion in the name of Peter Peacock. I too welcome the fact that someone as eminent in the world of enterprise as Crawford Beveridge has taken on the joint chairmanship of the group.It is appropriate that we debated the modernisation of the Scottish economy this morning because the way that we respond to the challenge of information technology is the key to the modernisation of our economy, governance and education system. Peter talked about our e- mail addresses in Parliament and the importance of digitisation in local government. It matters in a democratic sense. It matters to the economy. I was delighted to hear him talking about the all- embracing nature of the digital revolution and I welcome the priority he gives to rural and deprived areas. As Mr Davidson said, we can work anywhere, we can access the whole world. We need to create additional educational and training opportunities; lifelong learning must become real and the digital revolution will help in that. I am delighted to see that Scotland is embracing the tremendous scale of this revolution. We have already invested in schools and intend to establish the national grid for learning, with every pupil having an e-mail address. Future students of all ages will benefit from being able to study in schools and colleges, in their homes, in village halls and in cybercafés. I read of a housing scheme in Aberdeen with empty houses so the local authority put in a place where people could access the net. That is opening up people's lives. I do not wish to be churlish, but it is a pity that the SNP spoke about abolishing the national grid for learning. I know they have an alternative in mind, but it is the kind of soundbite people get hit with, which is a pity. I know that it is not the way they really think. Interestingly, the Tories' manifesto, which I read on the internet, did not mention the words computer or technology. From a party that tells us about small business and, as David Davidson mentioned, the importance of businesses taking on new technology, one would have expected the words to appear somewhere.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, it is too deeply embedded. You think that this is a joke, Michael?

I find it uncomfortable, but if we do not move with the times we are in serious economic and social jeopardy. Speaking for the Scottish Liberal Democrats, I therefore warmly welcome the minister's remarks and endorse the motion in the name of Peter Peacock. I too welcome the fact that someone as eminent in the world of enterprise as Crawford Beveridge has taken on the joint

chairmanship of the group.

It is appropriate that we debated the modernisation of the Scottish economy this morning because the way that we respond to the challenge of information technology is the key to the modernisation of our economy, governance and education system. Peter talked about our e- mail addresses in Parliament and the importance of digitisation in local government. It matters in a democratic sense. It matters to the economy. I was delighted to hear him talking about the all- embracing nature of the digital revolution and I welcome the priority he gives to rural and deprived areas. As Mr Davidson said, we can work anywhere, we can access the whole world.

We need to create additional educational and training opportunities; lifelong learning must become real and the digital revolution will help in that. I am delighted to see that Scotland is embracing the tremendous scale of this revolution. We have already invested in schools and intend to establish the national grid for learning, with every pupil having an e-mail address. Future students of all ages will benefit from being able to study in schools and colleges, in their homes, in village halls and in cybercafés.

I read of a housing scheme in Aberdeen with empty houses so the local authority put in a place where people could access the net. That is opening up people's lives. I do not wish to be churlish, but it is a pity that the SNP spoke about abolishing the national grid for learning. I know they have an alternative in mind, but it is the kind of soundbite people get hit with, which is a pity. I know that it is not the way they really think.

Interestingly, the Tories' manifesto, which I read on the internet, did not mention the words computer or technology. From a party that tells us about small business and, as David Davidson mentioned, the importance of businesses taking on new technology, one would have expected the words to appear somewhere.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1770E82P108C712000", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Digital Scotland", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27099, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 599.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 599.0, "ID": 27099, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Thomson, Elaine", "ID": 1770, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Thomson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Elaine Thomson (Aberdeen North) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 641.0, "ContributionID": 712000, "EditedText": "The minister's statement can only be warmly welcomed because, to use the current jargon, a step-change is going on in the development of digital technologies. The Scottish Executive is to be congratulated on the fact that it understands so clearly the opportunities that are offered, and the challenges that are presented, by the digital revolution. The Executive understands the essential role of Government to lead, explain and co-ordinate, so that the essential communications infrastructure can be developed and put in place, companies can develop e-business, education and training can be delivered in new ways, and both public and private services can be delivered electronically. It does not surprise me that Peter Peacock is cochairing the digital Scotland task force. I was in Inverness recently, with the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee. I was struck by the extent to which people and organisations in the Highlands, including local authorities, enterprise companies and education establishments, are using the new communication and information technologies to overcome geographic remoteness. The Highlands are clearly at home with the new technologies and benefiting from the exploitation of them—but all Scotland can benefit. The only constant now is change. The rate of change for the new digital technologies is, as has been said, extremely rapid. Part of the role of Government is to help Scotland grow with that change and build on it positively. Initiatives such as digital Scotland will undoubtedly help to do that, as will the current expansion of education for all ages and at all levels, whether it be giving children more access to pre-school care and education, as was announced yesterday, or ensuring that employees get the continuing training that they require, which the university for industry will address. Now and in the next century, the societies that invest in the intellectual capital of their citizens and co-ordinate and support the necessary infrastructure—particularly communications—and Governments that have the vision and leadership to exploit the digital revolution, will be best placed to succeed in the digital world. This revolution is with us now and, as has been said, participation is not optional. The consequences for societies round the globe will be every bit as large as those of the previous division between industrialised and non-industrialised societies. I have no doubt that Scotland has the people and the abilities to compete with the best in the new digital world and that initiatives such as digital Scotland will help. Yesterday, IBM held a seminar on e- government. It graphically described how many of the states in the United States are increasingly delivering services to their citizens across the web. The possibilities are awesome. There is the opportunity to eliminate expensive and time- consuming manual paper systems. Some states have reduced their costs by two thirds. The provision of electronic government services can be made self-financing. Think of the opportunities for the redeployment of resources away from manual paper-based systems—the filling out of endless forms at various stages—and into essential services, such as community care, which will always be heavily people intensive. Government must move into providing services electronically in a society in which we will increasingly buy goods and services over the web, communicate electronically and learn electronically. In that society, taking time off work to go in person to an office, which is open 9 to 5, Monday to Friday, to fill out paper forms, will not be acceptable. The modernisation of government is essential. That challenge is being met by the modernising government agenda and through digital Scotland. In this Parliament, we have an opportunity to be an examplar for the new digital society. Members all have laptops and access to the parliamentary network. It is generally known that the more people are exposed to information technology, the more they use it and develop their skills. One of the main problems that many members have with the parliamentary systems and technology is that there is not enough of it and it is not sophisticated enough. I think that that augurs well for the direction in which the use of technology in the Parliament will develop over the next few years. A legislature that is at home with technology is better placed to succeed in meeting the challenges of all aspects of a digital society.", "EditedTextHTML": "The minister's statement can only be warmly welcomed because, to use the current jargon, a step-change is going on in the development of digital technologies. The Scottish Executive is to be congratulated on the fact that it understands so clearly the opportunities that are offered, and the challenges that are presented, by the digital revolution. The Executive understands the essential role of Government to lead, explain and co-ordinate, so that the essential communications infrastructure can be developed and put in place, companies can develop e-business, education and training can be delivered in new ways, and both public and private services can be delivered electronically.

It does not surprise me that Peter Peacock is cochairing the digital Scotland task force. I was in Inverness recently, with the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee. I was struck by the extent to which people and organisations in the Highlands, including local authorities, enterprise companies and education establishments, are using the new communication and information technologies to overcome geographic remoteness. The Highlands are clearly at home with the new technologies and benefiting from the exploitation of them—but all Scotland can benefit.

The only constant now is change. The rate of change for the new digital technologies is, as has been said, extremely rapid. Part of the role of Government is to help Scotland grow with that change and build on it positively. Initiatives such as digital Scotland will undoubtedly help to do that, as will the current expansion of education for all ages and at all levels, whether it be giving children more access to pre-school care and education, as was announced yesterday, or ensuring that employees get the continuing training that they require, which the university for industry will address.

Now and in the next century, the societies that invest in the intellectual capital of their citizens and co-ordinate and support the necessary infrastructure—particularly communications—and Governments that have the vision and leadership to exploit the digital revolution, will be best placed to succeed in the digital world. This revolution is with us now and, as has been said, participation is not optional. The consequences for societies round the globe will be every bit as large as those of the previous division between industrialised and non-industrialised societies. I have no doubt that Scotland has the people and the abilities to compete with the best in the new digital world and that initiatives such as digital Scotland will help.

Yesterday, IBM held a seminar on e- government. It graphically described how many of the states in the United States are increasingly delivering services to their citizens across the web. The possibilities are awesome. There is the opportunity to eliminate expensive and time- consuming manual paper systems. Some states have reduced their costs by two thirds. The provision of electronic government services can be made self-financing. Think of the opportunities for the redeployment of resources away from manual paper-based systems—the filling out of endless forms at various stages—and into essential services, such as community care, which will always be heavily people intensive.

Government must move into providing services electronically in a society in which we will increasingly buy goods and services over the web, communicate electronically and learn electronically. In that society, taking time off work to go in person to an office, which is open 9 to 5, Monday to Friday, to fill out paper forms, will not be acceptable.

The modernisation of government is essential. That challenge is being met by the modernising government agenda and through digital Scotland. In this Parliament, we have an opportunity to be an examplar for the new digital society. Members all have laptops and access to the parliamentary network. It is generally known that the more people are exposed to information technology, the more they use it and develop their skills.

One of the main problems that many members have with the parliamentary systems and technology is that there is not enough of it and it is not sophisticated enough. I think that that augurs well for the direction in which the use of technology in the Parliament will develop over the next few years. A legislature that is at home with technology is better placed to succeed in meeting the challenges of all aspects of a digital society.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1775E171P452C712009", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Digital Scotland", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27099, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 599.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 599.0, "ID": 27099, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeod, Fiona", "ID": 1775, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona McLeod", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona McLeod: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 664.0, "ContributionID": 712009, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712032", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27100, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 713.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 713.0, "ID": 27100, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 716.0, "ContributionID": 712032, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1962E35P56C712010", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Digital Scotland", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27099, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 599.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 599.0, "ID": 27099, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mundell, David", "ID": 1962, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Mundell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David Mundell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 666.0, "ContributionID": 712010, "EditedText": "No. Given that I am to be confined to four minutes, I cannot give way. We are promoting language that underpins the view that technology is just for nerds on committees. That is not true—it is for everybody. Unless we get that message across, we will not change anything. In the time that I have been here, I have heard people talking about structures; infrastructure is very important. All the work and research that has been done around the world shows that behavioural change is fundamental to the implementation of technology and the digital Scotland that the minister is pursuing. Unless we see that behavioural change being championed by the Executive, it will not happen. It is not just about bandwidth and software solutions; it is about change in small and medium businesses, schools and government. We need leadership in that change. If the First Minister were here and—as some would wish—we cut him open, we would not find an Intel Pentium processor inside. I hope that we would find a commitment to driving technology forward, against what even I would call the forces of conservatism. Those forces are strong and we need commitment and leadership. It will fall to the minister to demonstrate that leadership in delivering a digital Scotland. Although there is an amendment, it is clear that there is cross-party support for taking forward technology in Scotland. Ultimately, the Executive must be absolutely committed to delivering a digital Scotland. Every one of us can make the Parliament demonstrate that it is in the forefront of technology. Since we had our rather disappointing debate on allowances, that has not been the case. Rather than concentrating on how we could deliver new and innovative types of government and how we could best serve our constituents using new technology—freephone numbers and videoconferencing—we got bogged down in the old-fashioned concept of a fixed geographical office. There is great potential for all of us—including those who say that they cannot use, or have not used, such technology—to demonstrate that we can make a difference. If this is a cutting-edge Parliament, it will give a message to the whole country that we want to see a new, modern Scotland at the forefront of commercial priorities, with a diverse and rich culture in the new millennium.", "EditedTextHTML": "No. Given that I am to be confined to four minutes, I cannot give way.

We are promoting language that underpins the view that technology is just for nerds on committees. That is not true—it is for everybody. Unless we get that message across, we will not change anything.

In the time that I have been here, I have heard people talking about structures; infrastructure is very important. All the work and research that has been done around the world shows that behavioural change is fundamental to the implementation of technology and the digital Scotland that the minister is pursuing. Unless we see that behavioural change being championed by the Executive, it will not happen. It is not just about bandwidth and software solutions; it is about change in small and medium businesses, schools and government. We need leadership in that change.

If the First Minister were here and—as some would wish—we cut him open, we would not find an Intel Pentium processor inside. I hope that we would find a commitment to driving technology forward, against what even I would call the forces of conservatism. Those forces are strong and we need commitment and leadership. It will fall to the minister to demonstrate that leadership in delivering a digital Scotland. Although there is an amendment, it is clear that there is cross-party support for taking forward technology in Scotland. Ultimately, the Executive must be absolutely committed to delivering a digital Scotland.

Every one of us can make the Parliament demonstrate that it is in the forefront of technology. Since we had our rather disappointing debate on allowances, that has not been the case. Rather than concentrating on how we could deliver new and innovative types of government and how we could best serve our constituents using new technology—freephone numbers and videoconferencing—we got bogged down in the old-fashioned concept of a fixed geographical office.

There is great potential for all of us—including those who say that they cannot use, or have not

used, such technology—to demonstrate that we can make a difference. If this is a cutting-edge Parliament, it will give a message to the whole country that we want to see a new, modern Scotland at the forefront of commercial priorities, with a diverse and rich culture in the new millennium.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C712014", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Digital Scotland", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27099, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 599.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 599.0, "ID": 27099, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 676.0, "ContributionID": 712014, "EditedText": "I will resist commenting on that. I call Brian Monteith to wind up for the Scottish Conservative party.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will resist commenting on that. I call Brian Monteith to wind up for the Scottish Conservative party.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C712015", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Digital Scotland", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27099, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 599.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 599.0, "ID": 27099, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Brian Monteith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 679.0, "ContributionID": 712015, "EditedText": "Presiding Officer, I will try to be brief, but it is not something for which I am particularly noted. I should declare an interest. In my previous life, I worked for Crawford Beveridge and I congratulate him on his work on the digital project. I echo the minister's words that this is a most profound and fundamental debate and it is a pity that at one point the number of members in the chamber sank to only 16. That was partly because the motion consisted of 157 rather bland words that were high on the platitude scale; and which would become 188 if we were to accept the SNP amendment. That has regrettably turned off some members. What is profound in this discussion is not so much the proposal for shaping the digital future, but the acceptance that that future is already here. We should also accept the limitations of what Government strategies can do. I was attracted by George Reid's speech about how the digital present can impact on our work in Parliament. There is certainly no doubt that digital change leads to greater employment, not least to the employment of people to read our e-mails, now that there are so many e-mails that it is hard to read them all ourselves. I must urge a sense of caution about what Government can do. It is probably going too far to believe that the Government can shape the global future. What it can do is have strategies that facilitate change. For example, the reason that we have such a great lead worldwide and are doing so well, not just in Scotland but in Britain, is due to the action that the previous Conservative Government took in privatising British Telecom. Many members in the chamber would have opposed that in the past, but it allowed new entrants into the market and encouraged competition. The Government plans to give kit—computers— to people who cannot afford it. However, what is particularly important is to drive down telephone costs. There is no point giving people computers to access the internet if they cannot afford the cost of the telephone connections. Competition is therefore an important aspect of the debate. In drawing up a strategy, we must ensure that competition drives down prices and increases access. We must also be careful about picking and choosing the right way forward. The market has got us where we are now—entrepreneurs trying to fit services and products to the choices of millions of individual consumers worldwide. Had a national strategy chosen Betamax instead of VHS, would the growth of video have been so great in the United Kingdom, putting us at the top of the tables for the number of people who have video at home? The strategy must consider the impact of change on institutions and on society and must ensure that we take full advantage of the opportunities. Putting computers into classrooms is a laudable idea, but we must ensure that we do not add new costs that detract from the resources in schools. A number of teachers have expressed to me, for example, their concern that the cost of toner cartridges is eating into their budgets. Everybody loves to use the computers and to print out their drawings, but the cost of the toner cartridges is becoming a great burden. Access, of course, is important. Fiona McLeod quite rightly raised the question of access in libraries. Only now is \"Encyclopaedia Britannica\", a Scottish institution, moving to CD-ROM. Previously a team of salesmen sold it at a cost of around £3,000. \"Encyclopaedia Britannica\" is about to become available on the web. Access will be free, as the site will carry advertising. There are, therefore, ways of harnessing digital technology. In closing, I argue that the Government has a role to play. We support the Scottish Executive's motion. It is bland and includes platitudes, which we welcome, but it will facilitate an open market, will remove barriers to competition and will ensure that the Government's operations take full advantage of digital technology. The move to consider the impact of digital Scotland on our society and its institutions will allow proposals to be brought forward that take account of that impact and harness the benefits. That is enough to be getting on with it. The SNP amendment goes a stage too far.", "EditedTextHTML": "Presiding Officer, I will try to be brief, but it is not something for which I am particularly noted.

I should declare an interest. In my previous life, I worked for Crawford Beveridge and I congratulate him on his work on the digital project.

I echo the minister's words that this is a most profound and fundamental debate and it is a pity that at one point the number of members in the chamber sank to only 16. That was partly because the motion consisted of 157 rather bland words that were high on the platitude scale; and which would become 188 if we were to accept the SNP amendment. That has regrettably turned off some members.

What is profound in this discussion is not so much the proposal for shaping the digital future, but the acceptance that that future is already here. We should also accept the limitations of what Government strategies can do. I was attracted by George Reid's speech about how the digital present can impact on our work in Parliament. There is certainly no doubt that digital change leads to greater employment, not least to the employment of people to read our e-mails, now that there are so many e-mails that it is hard to read them all ourselves.

I must urge a sense of caution about what Government can do. It is probably going too far to believe that the Government can shape the global future. What it can do is have strategies that facilitate change. For example, the reason that we have such a great lead worldwide and are doing so well, not just in Scotland but in Britain, is due to

the action that the previous Conservative Government took in privatising British Telecom. Many members in the chamber would have opposed that in the past, but it allowed new entrants into the market and encouraged competition.

The Government plans to give kit—computers— to people who cannot afford it. However, what is particularly important is to drive down telephone costs. There is no point giving people computers to access the internet if they cannot afford the cost of the telephone connections. Competition is therefore an important aspect of the debate. In drawing up a strategy, we must ensure that competition drives down prices and increases access.

We must also be careful about picking and choosing the right way forward. The market has got us where we are now—entrepreneurs trying to fit services and products to the choices of millions of individual consumers worldwide. Had a national strategy chosen Betamax instead of VHS, would the growth of video have been so great in the United Kingdom, putting us at the top of the tables for the number of people who have video at home?

The strategy must consider the impact of change on institutions and on society and must ensure that we take full advantage of the opportunities. Putting computers into classrooms is a laudable idea, but we must ensure that we do not add new costs that detract from the resources in schools. A number of teachers have expressed to me, for example, their concern that the cost of toner cartridges is eating into their budgets. Everybody loves to use the computers and to print out their drawings, but the cost of the toner cartridges is becoming a great burden.

Access, of course, is important. Fiona McLeod quite rightly raised the question of access in libraries. Only now is \"Encyclopaedia Britannica\", a Scottish institution, moving to CD-ROM. Previously a team of salesmen sold it at a cost of around £3,000. \"Encyclopaedia Britannica\" is about to become available on the web. Access will be free, as the site will carry advertising. There are, therefore, ways of harnessing digital technology.

In closing, I argue that the Government has a role to play. We support the Scottish Executive's motion. It is bland and includes platitudes, which we welcome, but it will facilitate an open market, will remove barriers to competition and will ensure that the Government's operations take full advantage of digital technology. The move to consider the impact of digital Scotland on our society and its institutions will allow proposals to be brought forward that take account of that impact and harness the benefits. That is enough to be getting on with it. The SNP amendment goes a stage too far.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2167E79P155C712018", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Digital Scotland", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27099, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 599.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 599.0, "ID": 27099, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Peacock, Peter", "ID": 2167, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Peter Peacock", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Peter Peacock: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 687.0, "ContributionID": 712018, "EditedText": "I will try to be brief, but there are many points that I want to respond to. The debate has been productive, if comparatively short. As many said, it is a great pity that more members could not be present to hear about the fundamental changes that are taking place in our society. However, I welcome many of the comments that were made—those that were supportive of the Executive's plans and the constructive criticism and suggestions for how we could improve them. I want to try to pick up on as many points as possible. I take the SNP amendment in the spirit in which it was intended, but I am afraid that I do not accept its detail. In many ways, it is more restrictive than the motion and, as Brian Monteith said, would put us in a sort of straitjacket, which might do us more harm than good.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will try to be brief, but there are many points that I want to respond to. The debate has been productive, if comparatively short. As many said, it is a great pity that more members could not be present to hear about the fundamental changes that are taking place in our society. However, I welcome many of the comments that were made—those that were supportive of the Executive's plans and the constructive criticism and suggestions for how we could improve them. I want to try to pick up on as many points as possible.

I take the SNP amendment in the spirit in which it was intended, but I am afraid that I do not accept its detail. In many ways, it is more restrictive than the motion and, as Brian Monteith said, would put us in a sort of straitjacket, which might do us more harm than good.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2167E79P155C712020", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Digital Scotland", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27099, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 599.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 599.0, "ID": 27099, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Peacock, Peter", "ID": 2167, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Peter Peacock", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Peter Peacock: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 691.0, "ContributionID": 712020, "EditedText": "I must make progress, Fiona.I hope that the SNP will accept my assurance that all the points that it wants addressed fall within the ambit of the digital Scotland initiative— there is no impediment to the initiative covering those points. The initiative will also deal with many more issues and will have a wide agenda, so perhaps the SNP will withdraw the amendment and not divide the chamber. The SNP amendment stresses the European Commission's approach to this issue. Earlier today, I was told that a web year lasts three months. The European report is now two years old—which, going by that philosophy, makes it 10 years old. Things are moving on dramatically. The report set the agenda that we are already following and, given that context, it is with regret that I say that I do not think that I can accept the amendment. I want to make it clear that I am extremely pleased to see the SNP reverse its policy on the national grid for learning. It is a significant development for the SNP to move back from its previous position of denying our children and schools the access to technology that the party now preaches. That is an important policy reversal, but I warmly welcome it—I welcome the fact that the SNP has embraced the national grid for learning and adopted Labour policies.", "EditedTextHTML": "I must make progress, Fiona.

I hope that the SNP will accept my assurance that all the points that it wants addressed fall within the ambit of the digital Scotland initiative— there is no impediment to the initiative covering those points. The initiative will also deal with many more issues and will have a wide agenda, so perhaps the SNP will withdraw the amendment and not divide the chamber.

The SNP amendment stresses the European Commission's approach to this issue. Earlier today, I was told that a web year lasts three months. The European report is now two years

old—which, going by that philosophy, makes it 10 years old. Things are moving on dramatically. The report set the agenda that we are already following and, given that context, it is with regret that I say that I do not think that I can accept the amendment.

I want to make it clear that I am extremely pleased to see the SNP reverse its policy on the national grid for learning. It is a significant development for the SNP to move back from its previous position of denying our children and schools the access to technology that the party now preaches. That is an important policy reversal, but I warmly welcome it—I welcome the fact that the SNP has embraced the national grid for learning and adopted Labour policies.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2167E79P155C712024", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Digital Scotland", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27099, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 599.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 599.0, "ID": 27099, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Peacock, Peter", "ID": 2167, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Peter Peacock", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Peter Peacock: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 699.0, "ContributionID": 712024, "EditedText": "No, Nicola. I am under pressure from the Presiding Officer to move on and I have a lot to cover. Many people spoke in the debate and I am glad that the SNP has clarified its position today.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, Nicola. I am under pressure from the Presiding Officer to move on and I have a lot to cover. Many people spoke in the debate and I am glad that the SNP has clarified its position today.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C712025", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Digital Scotland", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27099, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 599.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 599.0, "ID": 27099, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 701.0, "ContributionID": 712025, "EditedText": "On a point of order. Is the minister entitled to mislead the chamber and then refuse to accept an intervention that would correct his mistake?", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. Is the minister entitled to mislead the chamber and then refuse to accept an intervention that would correct his mistake?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C712037", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27100, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 713.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 713.0, "ID": 27100, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 724.0, "ContributionID": 712037, "EditedText": "The second question is, that amendment S1M-296.2, in the name of Mr John Swinney, seeking to amend motion S1M-296, in the name of Henry McLeish, on the modernisation of the Scottish economy, be agreed to. Are we agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "The second question is, that amendment S1M-296.2, in the name of Mr John Swinney, seeking to amend motion S1M-296, in the name of Henry McLeish, on the modernisation of the Scottish economy, be agreed to. Are we agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712038", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27100, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 713.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 713.0, "ID": 27100, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 726.0, "ContributionID": 712038, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C712039", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27100, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 713.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 713.0, "ID": 27100, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 728.0, "ContributionID": 712039, "EditedText": "There will be a division.", "EditedTextHTML": "There will be a division.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C712043", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27100, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 713.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 713.0, "ID": 27100, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 734.0, "ContributionID": 712043, "EditedText": "The third question is, that motion S1M-296, in the name of Henry McLeish, on the modernisation of the Scottish economy, be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "The third question is, that motion S1M-296, in the name of Henry McLeish, on the modernisation of the Scottish economy, be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C712046", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27100, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 713.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 713.0, "ID": 27100, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 738.0, "ContributionID": 712046, "EditedText": "I attempted in error to put the next question this morning, but this is the time for a decision on it. The fourth question is, that motion S1M-292, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, on the appointment of Patricia Ferguson to the Standards Committee, be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "I attempted in error to put the next question this morning, but this is the time for a decision on it. The fourth question is, that motion S1M-292, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, on the appointment of Patricia Ferguson to the Standards Committee, be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712047", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27100, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 713.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 713.0, "ID": 27100, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 740.0, "ContributionID": 712047, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C712049", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27100, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 713.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 713.0, "ID": 27100, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 742.0, "ContributionID": 712049, "EditedText": "The fifth question is, that amendment S1M-295.1, in the name of Fiona McLeod, which seeks to amend motion S1M-295, in the name of Peter Peacock, on the digital Scotland initiative, be agreed to. Are we agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "The fifth question is, that amendment S1M-295.1, in the name of Fiona McLeod, which seeks to amend motion S1M-295, in the name of Peter Peacock, on the digital Scotland initiative, be agreed to. Are we agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712060", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27100, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 713.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 713.0, "ID": 27100, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 761.0, "ContributionID": 712060, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1754E157P235C712069", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Domestic Water Supply (Bo'ness)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27101, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 764.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 764.0, "ID": 27101, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Peattie, Cathy", "ID": 1754, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Cathy Peattie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Cathy Peattie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 777.0, "ContributionID": 712069, "EditedText": "I had one meeting with Falkirk Council and suggested that at the next meeting we invite Michael along. It would have been a good idea to speak to me because I too have gathered information on the issue. None of my constituents has approached me on it, however, although I have held a number of surgeries in Bo'ness. In early October, I was contacted by the local press, who had spoken to a local resident—I believe it was Mr Grant. Right away we organised an investigation, contacting East of Scotland Water, Falkirk Council and other bodies. Michael quoted from some of the information that I also have. I also spoke to Michael Connarty, who had been looking at the matter for some time and was under the impression that it had been dealt with. I understand that he asked East of Scotland Water to monitor the issue and to keep him up to date on it. I understand from East of Scotland Water that work on installing new pipes in that part of Bo'ness has been completed, that \"this will ensure the supply of a clear, normal supply of water\", that £3 million has been spent on upgrading the mains supply in the area and that spending of £3.7 million is planned for the current year. There are lessons to be learnt. It is vital that people know what is happening. When water is contaminated, the investigation should happen as soon as possible and people in the surrounding area should be kept informed. In line with another constituent's clean water campaign, it is important that there is rigorous testing. I ask the minister to examine the way in which water is tested at present and to ensure that it is done in a way that addresses all health concerns. From time to time there will be problems with water supplies, particularly while standards are being raised, but is important that problems are dealt with as soon as possible. We must ensure good consumer liaison, clear information, immediate testing to find a remedy when a problem arises and, when the remedy is found, continuous monitoring of the remedy. It is vital that the folks in Bo'ness, the rest of Falkirk East and the whole of Scotland have a water supply that is clear and clean, and which is a credit to the country.", "EditedTextHTML": "I had one meeting with Falkirk Council and suggested that at the next meeting we invite Michael along. It would have been a good idea to speak to me because I too have gathered information on the issue. None of my constituents has approached me on it, however, although I have held a number of surgeries in Bo'ness.

In early October, I was contacted by the local press, who had spoken to a local resident—I believe it was Mr Grant. Right away we organised an investigation, contacting East of Scotland Water, Falkirk Council and other bodies. Michael quoted from some of the information that I also have. I also spoke to Michael Connarty, who had been looking at the matter for some time and was under the impression that it had been dealt with. I understand that he asked East of Scotland Water to monitor the issue and to keep him up to date on it.

I understand from East of Scotland Water that work on installing new pipes in that part of Bo'ness has been completed, that

\"this will ensure the supply of a clear, normal supply of water\", that £3 million has been spent on upgrading the mains supply in the area and that spending of £3.7 million is planned for the current year.

There are lessons to be learnt. It is vital that people know what is happening. When water is contaminated, the investigation should happen as soon as possible and people in the surrounding area should be kept informed. In line with another constituent's clean water campaign, it is important that there is rigorous testing. I ask the minister to examine the way in which water is tested at present and to ensure that it is done in a way that addresses all health concerns.

From time to time there will be problems with water supplies, particularly while standards are being raised, but is important that problems are dealt with as soon as possible. We must ensure good consumer liaison, clear information, immediate testing to find a remedy when a problem arises and, when the remedy is found, continuous monitoring of the remedy. It is vital that the folks in Bo'ness, the rest of Falkirk East and the whole of Scotland have a water supply that is clear and clean, and which is a credit to the country.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C712079", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Domestic Water Supply (Bo'ness)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27101, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 764.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 764.0, "ID": 27101, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 801.0, "ContributionID": 712079, "EditedText": "The minister has declined to give way.", "EditedTextHTML": "The minister has declined to give way.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712081", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Domestic Water Supply (Bo'ness)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27101, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 764.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 764.0, "ID": 27101, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 805.0, "ContributionID": 712081, "EditedText": "Meeting closed at 17:44.", "EditedTextHTML": "Meeting closed at 17:44.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C711745", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 86.0, "ContributionID": 711745, "EditedText": "I welcome this debate on modernising the Scottish economy. It gives Parliament the opportunity to test effectively how the Executive is performing in leading the development of the Scottish economy to face the challenges of the future. Having listened to what the minister said about modernisation, and having studied the points that are made in the Conservative amendment that stands in the name of Annabel Goldie, I am confused. The minister talked about the need to have a culture that embraces modernisation. If I interpreted him correctly, he seemed to be embracing the Conservative amendment, which would delete a reference to modernisation from the motion and insert in place of it some specific commitments in relation to the Government's work. I am sure that the deputy minister will clear up that point later. As I listened to the Queen's speech at Westminster yesterday, I was struck by the defining characteristic. It had clearly been written by a Labour spin doctor. Her Majesty was almost unable to complete a sentence without using the word modernise. Of course, the speech was consistent with so much of the Government's rhetoric at Westminster and in Edinburgh. It seems that simply mentioning the word modernise solves all the challenges that we face—but what does modernise mean? I suppose modernise means equip for the future and the challenges that lie ahead; being ready for change and embracing it rather than being fearful of it. I suppose it means responding to the Government's clarion call for action, or the support that is required will not exist. am concerned that that is not what the Government is offering today. I hope that this debate is not just another Executive time filler, with the danger that it confuses rather than clarifies the way ahead for Scottish companies. I fear that what we now hear from the Government on the debate about modernisation is another feature of its wanting to be seen to be doing things rather than getting on with doing them. One of the criticisms that the SNP has regularly made of the Executive is that ministers continue to announce a range of initiatives that lack cohesion. It is nice in politics when somebody makes a point that enforces our arguments. I was intrigued by an article in the Sunday Herald at the weekend. Alf Young, who is one of Scotland's most distinguished economic commentators, opened his article with these words: \"Scotland's enterprise and lifelong learning minister Henry McLeish was complaining about ‘initiative overload' on Friday . . . In the week when the chancellor's pre-budget report heaped even more enterprise initiatives on the already groaning pile, Mr McLeish was candid enough to admit that the plethora of agencies, task forces, programmes, initiatives and incentives clustered loosely under the enterprise banner is, in large measure, down to politicians anxious to be seen to be do something positive.\" That is an admission if ever there was one.I reiterate one of the SNP's criticisms of what the Government is doing and how it is going about policy making in this field. It must move away from this cluster of initiatives, programmes and press announcements. The cluster strategy seems almost to come from the number of announcements that are being made. We must have a comprehensive economic strategy for Scotland. I am often staggered by the fact that we do not already have one.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome this debate on modernising the Scottish economy. It gives Parliament the opportunity to test effectively how the Executive is performing in leading the development of the Scottish economy to face the challenges of the future.

Having listened to what the minister said about modernisation, and having studied the points that are made in the Conservative amendment that stands in the name of Annabel Goldie, I am confused. The minister talked about the need to have a culture that embraces modernisation. If I interpreted him correctly, he seemed to be embracing the Conservative amendment, which would delete a reference to modernisation from the motion and insert in place of it some specific commitments in relation to the Government's work. I am sure that the deputy minister will clear up that point later.

As I listened to the Queen's speech at Westminster yesterday, I was struck by the defining characteristic. It had clearly been written by a Labour spin doctor. Her Majesty was almost unable to complete a sentence without using the word modernise. Of course, the speech was consistent with so much of the Government's rhetoric at Westminster and in Edinburgh. It seems that simply mentioning the word modernise solves all the challenges that we face—but what does modernise mean?

I suppose modernise means equip for the future and the challenges that lie ahead; being ready for change and embracing it rather than being fearful of it. I suppose it means responding to the Government's clarion call for action, or the support that is required will not exist. am concerned that that is not what the Government is offering today. I hope that this debate is not just another Executive time filler, with the danger that it confuses rather than clarifies the way ahead for Scottish companies. I fear that what we now hear from the Government on the debate about modernisation is another feature of its wanting to be seen to be doing things rather than getting on with doing them.

One of the criticisms that the SNP has regularly made of the Executive is that ministers continue to announce a range of initiatives that lack cohesion. It is nice in politics when somebody makes a point that enforces our arguments. I was intrigued by an article in the Sunday Herald at the weekend. Alf Young, who is one of Scotland's most distinguished economic commentators, opened his article with these words:

\"Scotland's enterprise and lifelong learning minister Henry McLeish was complaining about ‘initiative overload' on Friday . . . In the week when the chancellor's pre-budget report heaped even more enterprise initiatives on the already groaning pile, Mr McLeish was candid enough to admit that the plethora of agencies, task forces, programmes, initiatives and incentives clustered loosely under the enterprise banner is, in large measure, down to politicians anxious to be seen to be do something positive.\"

That is an admission if ever there was one.

I reiterate one of the SNP's criticisms of what the Government is doing and how it is going about policy making in this field. It must move away from this cluster of initiatives, programmes and press announcements. The cluster strategy seems almost to come from the number of announcements that are being made. We must have a comprehensive economic strategy for Scotland. I am often staggered by the fact that we do not already have one.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:01:27.8453423+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C711749", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 94.0, "ContributionID": 711749, "EditedText": "I read those reports in the newspaper and assumed that there was a vague element of truth in them. I am told that briefings were made to journalists yesterday about the fact that the economic strategy was going to be launched and that there was a lot of covering up for the fact that we did not have a strategy beforehand. If the strategy is launched, it is important that itis brought before this Parliament. I would like to think that what the Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning has told us this morning has been designed to give us a hint of what might be drawn together into that economic strategy and what it will tell us about the future direction of the Scottish economy. We must ensure that the Parliament, and the Executive on our behalf, is truly in command of the direction of the Scottish economy. Ministers must have a vision of the type of economy that we are trying to achieve in Scotland. To do that, the economic strategy, upon which the Executive must consult widely and attempt to secure a broad consensus across the parties and across Scotland to support those objectives, must give clear strategic direction to all the partners in our society. An implicit part of the minister's message this morning was the need for us to be technologically equipped for the future, yet the way in which the minister has handled it means that we are having this debate on a compartmentalised subject and we will have the debate about digital Scotland this afternoon. If digital Scotland is not at the heart of the debate about the modernisation of the Scottish economy, what on earth is? I admire Mr McLeish's enthusiasm for the economic regeneration of Scotland and I support many of the initiatives that he produces because they are, in the main, good ideas about developing the Scottish economy. However, he does not run the whole show on this policy area as, for example, policy on digital Scotland is in the custody of the Deputy Minister for Children and Education. Excuse me for asking silly questions, but I do not understand how this hangs together. If we are going to modernise the Scottish economy, we should give responsibility to the ministers who are responsible for the modernisation of the Scottish economy and give them the equipment to get on with it. We should not compartmentalise vital aspects of policy. I have been asking for weeks why Mr Peacock is in charge of digital Scotland policy. I have yet to get an answer.", "EditedTextHTML": "I read those reports in the newspaper and assumed that there was a vague element of truth in them. I am told that briefings were made to journalists yesterday about the fact that the economic strategy was going to be launched and that there was a lot of covering up for the fact that we did not have a strategy beforehand.

If the strategy is launched, it is important that it

is brought before this Parliament. I would like to think that what the Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning has told us this morning has been designed to give us a hint of what might be drawn together into that economic strategy and what it will tell us about the future direction of the Scottish economy.

We must ensure that the Parliament, and the Executive on our behalf, is truly in command of the direction of the Scottish economy. Ministers must have a vision of the type of economy that we are trying to achieve in Scotland. To do that, the economic strategy, upon which the Executive must consult widely and attempt to secure a broad consensus across the parties and across Scotland to support those objectives, must give clear strategic direction to all the partners in our society.

An implicit part of the minister's message this morning was the need for us to be technologically equipped for the future, yet the way in which the minister has handled it means that we are having this debate on a compartmentalised subject and we will have the debate about digital Scotland this afternoon. If digital Scotland is not at the heart of the debate about the modernisation of the Scottish economy, what on earth is?

I admire Mr McLeish's enthusiasm for the economic regeneration of Scotland and I support many of the initiatives that he produces because they are, in the main, good ideas about developing the Scottish economy. However, he does not run the whole show on this policy area as, for example, policy on digital Scotland is in the custody of the Deputy Minister for Children and Education.

Excuse me for asking silly questions, but I do not understand how this hangs together. If we are going to modernise the Scottish economy, we should give responsibility to the ministers who are responsible for the modernisation of the Scottish economy and give them the equipment to get on with it. We should not compartmentalise vital aspects of policy. I have been asking for weeks why Mr Peacock is in charge of digital Scotland policy. I have yet to get an answer.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:01:27.8453423+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2110E214P424C711763", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gibson, Kenneth", "ID": 2110, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenneth Gibson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Gibson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 123.0, "ContributionID": 711763, "EditedText": "Would the member give way? I note that she is wearing a very beautiful jacket.", "EditedTextHTML": "Would the member give way? I note that she is wearing a very beautiful jacket.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:01:27.8453423+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C711856", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 323.0, "ContributionID": 711856, "EditedText": "In the remaining minutes of his speech, I hope the minister will address the points on which Mr Lyon and I managed to find common ground. Will the great fiscal and macro-economic measures that the Chancellor of the Exchequer took last week in relation to the companies sector touch in any way the small business sector that, he has just told us, is uppermost in the Executive's mind?", "EditedTextHTML": "In the remaining minutes of his speech, I hope the minister will address the points on which Mr Lyon and I managed to find common ground. Will the great fiscal and macro-economic measures that the Chancellor of the Exchequer took last week in relation to the companies sector touch in any way the small business sector that, he has just told us, is uppermost in the Executive's mind?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:03:51.8585749+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2110E214P424C711709", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ethical Standards in Public Life Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27069, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27069, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gibson, Kenneth", "ID": 2110, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenneth Gibson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Kenneth Gibson (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 11.0, "ContributionID": 711709, "EditedText": "I thank the minister for that statement and I commend him for providing us with a copy of it last night. With his indulgence, I will ask some brief questions for clarification. First, what does the minister propose will be the mechanism and criteria for the selection of the chief investigating officer for Scotland's standards commission? Secondly, the Executive has had time to consider the workings of existing standards committees, such as the one that is established at Glasgow City Council—on which the minister and I both served—and the Parliament's Standards Committee. What lessons can we learn from the workings of such committees? Finally, will the minister clarify, for some sections of the media, that the repeal of section 2A of the Local Government Act 1986 does not involve the promotion of one lifestyle over another, but is simply the end of legal discrimination against lesbians and gay men?", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the minister for that statement and I commend him for providing us with a copy of it last night. With his indulgence, I will ask some brief questions for clarification.

First, what does the minister propose will be the mechanism and criteria for the selection of the chief investigating officer for Scotland's standards commission?

Secondly, the Executive has had time to consider the workings of existing standards committees, such as the one that is established at Glasgow City Council—on which the minister and I both served—and the Parliament's Standards Committee. What lessons can we learn from the workings of such committees?

Finally, will the minister clarify, for some sections of the media, that the repeal of section 2A of the Local Government Act 1986 does not involve the promotion of one lifestyle over another, but is simply the end of legal discrimination against lesbians and gay men?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:32:49.6287351+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C711976", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27094, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 518.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27095, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 519.0, "QuestionHeading": "Anti-social Neighbour Orders", "QuestionHeadingID": 27098, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 570.0, "DisplayOrder": 570.0, "ID": 27098, "ParentID": 27095 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 587.0, "ContributionID": 711976, "EditedText": "On a point of order, Presiding Officer. As the Lord Advocate explained that the Deputy First Minister could not attend today's question time, we do not dispute why he is not here. However, is it appropriate for the Lord Advocate to deal with questions on policy matters in front of Parliament and in particular on matters of policing? Some of his responsibilities might be compromised by the answers that he is giving to such questions.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order, Presiding Officer. As the Lord Advocate explained that the Deputy First Minister could not attend today's question time, we do not dispute why he is not here. However, is it appropriate for the Lord Advocate to deal with questions on policy matters in front of Parliament and in particular on matters of policing? Some of his responsibilities might be compromised by the answers that he is giving to such questions.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:06:33.7651873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1870E181P475C711897", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27073, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 359.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27074, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 360.0, "QuestionHeading": "Immigration and Asylum", "QuestionHeadingID": 27080, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 406.0, "DisplayOrder": 406.0, "ID": 27080, "ParentID": 27074 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robison, Shona", "ID": 1870, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Shona Robison", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Shona Robison: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 411.0, "ContributionID": 711897, "EditedText": "I am sure that the minister will be aware of the controversial nature of that legislation, particularly the voucher scheme, and of the cross-party concern about it. Will he assure us that this Parliament will be able to debate the terms of the concordat?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sure that the minister will be aware of the controversial nature of that legislation, particularly the voucher scheme, and of the cross-party concern about it. Will he assure us that this Parliament will be able to debate the terms of the concordat?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:00:18.3299743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1870E181P475C711895", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27073, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 359.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27074, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 360.0, "QuestionHeading": "Immigration and Asylum", "QuestionHeadingID": 27080, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 406.0, "DisplayOrder": 406.0, "ID": 27080, "ParentID": 27074 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robison, Shona", "ID": 1870, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Shona Robison", "SpeakerDisplayName": "6. Shona Robison (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 407.0, "ContributionID": 711895, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will be concluding a concordat regarding the terms of the forthcoming immigration and asylum legislation with Her Majesty's Government. (S1O667)", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will be concluding a concordat regarding the terms of the forthcoming immigration and asylum legislation with Her Majesty's Government. (S1O

667)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:00:18.3299743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1870E181P475C711899", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27073, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 359.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27074, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 360.0, "QuestionHeading": "Immigration and Asylum", "QuestionHeadingID": 27080, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 406.0, "DisplayOrder": 406.0, "ID": 27080, "ParentID": 27074 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robison, Shona", "ID": 1870, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Shona Robison", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Shona Robison: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 415.0, "ContributionID": 711899, "EditedText": "A precedent has been set in this Parliament that we can discuss and debate reserved matters, regardless of whether we have legislative competence over them. Will the minister give the Parliament an opportunity to debate this matter, which is of cross-party concern?", "EditedTextHTML": "A precedent has been set in this Parliament that we can discuss and debate reserved matters, regardless of whether we have legislative competence over them. Will the minister give the Parliament an opportunity to debate this matter, which is of cross-party concern?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:00:18.3299743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C712005", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Digital Scotland", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27099, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 599.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 599.0, "ID": 27099, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 655.0, "ContributionID": 712005, "EditedText": "It is a pity you could not score.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is a pity you could not score.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:00:15.9738701+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C712016", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Digital Scotland", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27099, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 599.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 599.0, "ID": 27099, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 682.0, "ContributionID": 712016, "EditedText": "The SNP obviously has not been bland enough for Brian Monteith's taste, to allow him to support our amendment. This afternoon's debate has been good, although I am sorry that more people did not attend. A number of interesting contributions have been made, covering issues ranging from pacemakers to changing the world. Who says that modern-day politicians are cynics? I sincerely hope that the good ideas that have been expressed today will be taken on board by the Executive and given due consideration. In summing up, I want to reflect on the concept of joined-up thinking, which is one of new Labour's favourite buzz phrases. I cannot comment on whether Peter Peacock's thinking is joined-up or not, but there is sometimes little sign of the co-ordinated approach that he talked about in his opening remarks. This morning we had a debate on the modernisation of the Scottish economy, led by the Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and his team. A number of speakers in that debate highlighted the importance of e- commerce and the need for small and medium businesses to take up the opportunities of e- commerce. Now we have this debate on digital Scotland, and a motion that talks about \"competitive economic advantage\". I would like the deputy minister to comment when he winds up on why these two debates have been so compartmentalised, when they should have gone hand in hand. Is there any good reason—I emphasise the word good—why responsibility for digital Scotland lies with the Deputy Minister for Children and Education? One point among many of the deputy minister's opening remarks highlighted the lack of a co-ordinated approach across Government departments: when he said that we would now begin the infrastructure audit. The question which sprang to mind was why that audit was not carried out or at least started during the preparations for Y2K, which were the subject of a debate in this Parliament last week. It would have made sense to co-ordinate the two things. One thing about this morning's debate on modernising the economy struck me when John Swinney said that Scotland often appears to be playing catch-up. If one comment could be lifted from this morning's debate and slotted into this debate, it is that one. Scotland, as Fiona McLeod outlined, is playing catch-up. Our European partners have been leaving us behind. The European Union set a deadline of June 1999 for the production of a comprehensive national strategy for the information society by each member state. Scotland has not yet produced that, unless the deputy minister can tell us otherwise. Denmark produced such a strategy in 1996; France did so in 1998; Finland is operating a national strategy for 2000 to 2006. The list goes on, but Scotland as yet does not feature on it. All of that underlines a real need for a national information strategy. As Fiona said, there is no reason—be it educational, geographical or technological—why Scotland should not be at the cutting edge of the information society. One of the problems that Fiona and others have mentioned this afternoon is the number of unrelated, unco-ordinated initiatives: the community learning network, the Scottish university for industry, the public library network, to name but a few. The minister referred to myriad initiatives. What is lacking is a strategy that draws all that together, and which ensures that the information society, as opposed to just a knowledge economy, develops nationally, regionally, locally and across sectors. Peter Peacock said that he had ambitions for the information society. I applaud those ambitions, but we need more than fine words and ambitions. We need action, and that is what the motion that we are considering does not detail. I want to outline some of the things that we could do if we had a national strategy in place. We could provide seamless public access to information; integrate Government initiatives in education, social inclusion, the economy and rural and urban regeneration; ensure that networks across public, private and voluntary sectors are fully co-ordinated, now and in the future; and ensure that the public have skills to participate in the information society. I think that it was David Davidson who said that the important thing was to train people in one system that they could use throughout their lives. I tell David that that is not what is important. What is important is equipping our citizens with the skills that are necessary to access the information society. We could also ensure that all areas of our country—all our communities and all our citizens— have equal access to information technology. There is a real danger in the current unequal access. I know that the Prime Minister thinks that the class war is over. We are in real danger, however, of opening up new divides between the haves and have-nots. The most important thing is that a national strategy would avoid the present duplication of resources and infrastructure. The Government has already spend £150 million on public information and communications technology initiatives, but there are no set criteria for the funding of those projects. That means that everyone is doing different things and, in many cases, reinventing the wheel. One example is the university for industry's setting up its own body to oversee its strategy, rather than be part of the national strategy. I think that we have made the case for a national strategy. That is what our amendment seeks to do. It is not about being zappy, Brian; it is about taking action. What the Government motion— Interruption.—sorry, I meant David Mundell. It is not about being zappy, David. It is just that Brian Monteith is so zappy. Laughter. The amendment is about taking action. The Government's motion lacks a clear vision of where we go from here. I hope that, in the spirit of consensus, the minister will accept the SNP motion—unlike yesterday— and allow us to move forward on the basis of consensus.", "EditedTextHTML": "The SNP obviously has not been bland enough for Brian Monteith's taste, to allow him to support our amendment. This afternoon's debate has been good, although I am sorry that more people did not attend. A number of interesting contributions have been made, covering issues ranging from pacemakers to changing the world. Who says that modern-day politicians are cynics? I sincerely hope that the good ideas that have been expressed today will be taken on board by the Executive and given due consideration.

In summing up, I want to reflect on the concept of joined-up thinking, which is one of new Labour's favourite buzz phrases. I cannot comment on whether Peter Peacock's thinking is joined-up or not, but there is sometimes little sign of the co-ordinated approach that he talked about in his opening remarks. This morning we had a debate on the modernisation of the Scottish economy, led by the Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and his team. A number of speakers in that debate highlighted the importance of e- commerce and the need for small and medium businesses to take up the opportunities of e- commerce.

Now we have this debate on digital Scotland, and a motion that talks about \"competitive economic advantage\". I would like the deputy minister to comment when he winds up on why these two debates have been so compartmentalised, when they should have gone hand in hand. Is there any good reason—I emphasise the word good—why responsibility for digital Scotland lies with the Deputy Minister for Children and Education?

One point among many of the deputy minister's opening remarks highlighted the lack of a co-ordinated approach across Government departments: when he said that we would now begin the infrastructure audit. The question which sprang to mind was why that audit was not carried out or at least started during the preparations for Y2K, which were the subject of a debate in this Parliament last week. It would have made sense to co-ordinate the two things.

One thing about this morning's debate on modernising the economy struck me when John Swinney said that Scotland often appears to be playing catch-up. If one comment could be lifted from this morning's debate and slotted into this debate, it is that one. Scotland, as Fiona McLeod outlined, is playing catch-up. Our European partners have been leaving us behind. The

European Union set a deadline of June 1999 for the production of a comprehensive national strategy for the information society by each member state. Scotland has not yet produced that, unless the deputy minister can tell us otherwise. Denmark produced such a strategy in 1996; France did so in 1998; Finland is operating a national strategy for 2000 to 2006. The list goes on, but Scotland as yet does not feature on it.

All of that underlines a real need for a national information strategy. As Fiona said, there is no reason—be it educational, geographical or technological—why Scotland should not be at the cutting edge of the information society. One of the problems that Fiona and others have mentioned this afternoon is the number of unrelated, unco-ordinated initiatives: the community learning network, the Scottish university for industry, the public library network, to name but a few. The minister referred to myriad initiatives. What is lacking is a strategy that draws all that together, and which ensures that the information society, as opposed to just a knowledge economy, develops nationally, regionally, locally and across sectors.

Peter Peacock said that he had ambitions for the information society. I applaud those ambitions, but we need more than fine words and ambitions. We need action, and that is what the motion that we are considering does not detail.

I want to outline some of the things that we could do if we had a national strategy in place. We could provide seamless public access to information; integrate Government initiatives in education, social inclusion, the economy and rural and urban regeneration; ensure that networks across public, private and voluntary sectors are fully co-ordinated, now and in the future; and ensure that the public have skills to participate in the information society.

I think that it was David Davidson who said that the important thing was to train people in one system that they could use throughout their lives. I tell David that that is not what is important. What is important is equipping our citizens with the skills that are necessary to access the information society. We could also ensure that all areas of our country—all our communities and all our citizens— have equal access to information technology.

There is a real danger in the current unequal access. I know that the Prime Minister thinks that the class war is over. We are in real danger, however, of opening up new divides between the haves and have-nots. The most important thing is that a national strategy would avoid the present duplication of resources and infrastructure. The Government has already spend £150 million on public information and communications technology initiatives, but there are no set criteria for the funding of those projects. That means that everyone is doing different things and, in many cases, reinventing the wheel. One example is the university for industry's setting up its own body to oversee its strategy, rather than be part of the national strategy.

I think that we have made the case for a national strategy. That is what our amendment seeks to do. It is not about being zappy, Brian; it is about taking action. What the Government motion— [Interruption.]—sorry, I meant David Mundell. It is not about being zappy, David. It is just that Brian Monteith is so zappy. [Laughter.] The amendment is about taking action. The Government's motion lacks a clear vision of where we go from here. I hope that, in the spirit of consensus, the minister will accept the SNP motion—unlike yesterday— and allow us to move forward on the basis of consensus.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:00:15.9738701+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C711733", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 61.0, "ContributionID": 711733, "EditedText": "I will pursue that point a little further in relation to the enterprise-friendly measures announced by the chancellor. A number of them are very welcome, but I am not sure that they are all tailored to the requirements of the company sector in Scotland. Does the minister have the discretion to tailor initiatives launched by the chancellor that apparently have a pan-UK dimension but which would better suit the company base in Scotland so that companies can maximise the benefits provided by those opportunities?", "EditedTextHTML": "I will pursue that point a little further in relation to the enterprise-friendly measures announced by the chancellor. A number of them are very welcome, but I am not sure that they are all tailored to the requirements of the company sector in Scotland. Does the minister have the discretion to tailor initiatives launched by the chancellor that apparently have a pan-UK dimension but which would better suit the company base in Scotland so that companies can maximise the benefits provided by those opportunities?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:01:27.8453423+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C711880", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27073, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 359.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27074, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 360.0, "QuestionHeading": "A8000", "QuestionHeadingID": 27076, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 368.0, "DisplayOrder": 368.0, "ID": 27076, "ParentID": 27074 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 373.0, "ContributionID": 711880, "EditedText": "I am well aware of the intensity of congestion in and around the area of the Forth bridge. I am happy to say that the local authorities are working on that matter; I am meeting them in December to discuss the research that the Scottish Executive is doing and to discuss strategies for improving investment and the facilities in the area.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am well aware of the intensity of congestion in and around the area of the Forth bridge. I am happy to say that the local authorities are working on that matter; I am meeting them in December to discuss the research that the Scottish Executive is doing and to discuss strategies for improving investment and the facilities in the area.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:08.9207112+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C712075", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Domestic Water Supply (Bo'ness)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27101, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 764.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 764.0, "ID": 27101, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment (Sarah Boyack): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 793.0, "ContributionID": 712075, "EditedText": "I would like to thank the members who have remained in the chamber to listen to the debate. I would also like to thank Michael Matheson for raising the issue, as the debate has highlighted some important questions that I would like to address. I want to make it absolutely clear at the outset that public health is a key concern for the Scottish Executive and for the water authorities. That said, I want to talk through some of the points that Michael made. There has been a full study into the particular issue that he raised and an exchange of letters. Michael quoted from one of those letters, but he did so selectively. A series of samples have been taken and analysed. A consultant on public health medicine, who came into post only in February 1999 and can, therefore, be regarded as independent on the issue, examined a total of 30 samples. Only two of those gave unusually high readings—the original sample, to which Mr Matheson referred, and another taken in April this year. It is the consultant's view that, because all the other samples yielded normal results, the sample that was identified as not meeting standards might have given a false reading. There has been a great deal of research into the issue and action has been taken.", "EditedTextHTML": "I would like to thank the members who have remained in the chamber to listen to the debate. I would also like to thank Michael Matheson for raising the issue, as the debate has highlighted some important

questions that I would like to address. I want to make it absolutely clear at the outset that public health is a key concern for the Scottish Executive and for the water authorities.

That said, I want to talk through some of the points that Michael made. There has been a full study into the particular issue that he raised and an exchange of letters. Michael quoted from one of those letters, but he did so selectively. A series of samples have been taken and analysed. A consultant on public health medicine, who came into post only in February 1999 and can, therefore, be regarded as independent on the issue, examined a total of 30 samples. Only two of those gave unusually high readings—the original sample, to which Mr Matheson referred, and another taken in April this year. It is the consultant's view that, because all the other samples yielded normal results, the sample that was identified as not meeting standards might have given a false reading.

There has been a great deal of research into the issue and action has been taken.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:08.9207112+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C712077", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Domestic Water Supply (Bo'ness)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27101, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 764.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 764.0, "ID": 27101, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 797.0, "ContributionID": 712077, "EditedText": "No, I have only a few minutes and there are many points to answer.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I have only a few minutes and there are many points to answer.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:08.9207112+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C712080", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Domestic Water Supply (Bo'ness)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27101, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 764.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 764.0, "ID": 27101, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 803.0, "ContributionID": 712080, "EditedText": "Thank you, Presiding Officer. I was very patient when listening to Mr Matheson. The letter to which I am referring is that of 15 November, which, I assume, is the same letter from which the member quoted. The press release that was issued after the survey was carried out stated that \"there is no known harmful effect on health of the consumption of drinking water which has intermittently high levels of iron, manganese or aluminium\". The consultant spoke to a number of local residents and gave them the same information. The critical issue that today's debate has raised is the need to ensure that people understand the process and have confidence in it. The issue of water supplies in Bo'ness has a long history, but it is not true to say that nothing has happened to address it. The water authority has acted to tackle the problem of water discoloration by scouring the pipes. Donald Gorrie, Alex Neil and Cathy Peattie are right about the need to ensure that there is high investment in our water facilities. There have been attempts to deal with sediment that has built up by reorganising the pipe layout on Angus Road. I am struck that Michael Connarty has taken up the issue on more than one occasion. Anyone who knows him will be aware that he is not the sort of person who can be fobbed off—he is a persistent character. Information that he has chased up has reassured him that there is no risk to public health, the only evidence of contamination being the sample that was taken in November 1998. I would have hoped that the explanations that Mr Matheson has received, both from East of Scotland Water and from Forth Valley Health Board, would have reassured him that there is not a big problem with the water supply in Bo'ness. Mr Neil is right to welcome the fact that we have had an opportunity to debate the issue. I should add that the matter was followed up by the Scottish Office after a series of complaints were made both to the local authority and to East of Scotland Water. The health authorities have been fully consulted. It is not just the water authority that has to account for itself—Forth Valley Health Board is involved, as well as the local authorities. There is a procedure that must be followed. The water authorities are under a statutory obligation to produce an annual report on water quality in their area, and to submit that both to the local authorities and to the Executive. I stress that, if members of the public have concerns about their water supply, the water authorities will take samples from their tap and analyse them to ensure compliance with regulations. Customers will be informed of the results of that analysis. We also produce an annual report on the quality of drinking water, which was submitted to the Parliament's information centre and which I announced in a press release. I encourage members present to study that statement and to identify issues that they may wish to raise with me in the light of it. Local authorities have a statutory duty to keep themselves informed about the quality of water supply in their areas. The water authorities are required to notify the local authorities, the health board and the Scottish Executive of any event that affects or is likely to affect the water supply in their area. There is a clear set of procedures. I agree with the points that Donald Gorrie made about investment in public services. Significant investment is being made in East of Scotland Water to meet the requirements that are set by Europe and the Scottish Executive. However, I would dispute his comment that we have replaced Conservative councillors with Labour councillors. There is a process of applications, and local people—not just councillors—can apply to sit on water authorities. The appointments that were made this year showed an interesting mix of political backgrounds—the appointees were not all Labour members. The Water Industry Act 1999 gives us the transparency that Mr Gorrie and Mr Neil are looking for. We are in a period of transition: we have a new Parliament, new water legislation and a new water industry commissioner. We have the opportunity to get things right. It is important that we make sure that when complaints are raised, they are followed up. The specific case that we are discussing today was checked by the Scottish Office earlier this year and officials have told me that they are satisfied that the correct approach was taken. Water authorities have to hold regular meetings with consultants in public health medicine from the health boards in their supply area—it is not only people in the water authorities who are involved in discussions. If a water quality issue is thought to pose a threat to public health, those consultants have to advise the authorities on whether it is safe to continue using the water. If a hazard is thought likely to affect more than a small number of people, the consultants in public health medicine will advise that a multi-agency incident control team be set up to co-ordinate the investigation and management of the hazard. The primary aim of the incident control team is always to protect public health. Operational support and advice is provided by the Scottish Centre for Infection and Environmental Health, which is frequently consulted by consultants in public health medicine and by local authority environmental health departments. The centre is satisfied that there is a clearly defined and effective mechanism for providing medical advice on water quality issues within Scotland. Cathy Peattie raised a point about the way in which we test water. In this case, a problem with the way in which we test water has led to the debate. A water sample was collected and tested, but it was not collected in controlled circumstances. I am told that there must be a chain of custody. For instance, if someone was being tested for drugs, neither they nor any sample that they were required to provide would be left unsupervised. The same applies to testing for water quality. We can never be complacent, but I am satisfied that the facts of the case that we are discussing have been examined and that there is no on-going pollution problem with the domestic water supply, nor is there a risk to public health. I am also satisfied that East of Scotland Water operated in an open and accountable manner and that there is no need for a review further to the review that has already been carried out. I thank Mr Matheson for raising the issue because there is a need to ensure that local issues are dealt with effectively and through the correct procedures.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you, Presiding Officer. I was very patient when listening to Mr Matheson. The letter to which I am referring is that of 15 November, which, I assume, is the same letter from which the member quoted.

The press release that was issued after the survey was carried out stated that

\"there is no known harmful effect on health of the consumption of drinking water which has intermittently high levels of iron, manganese or aluminium\".

The consultant spoke to a number of local residents and gave them the same information.

The critical issue that today's debate has raised is the need to ensure that people understand the process and have confidence in it. The issue of water supplies in Bo'ness has a long history, but it is not true to say that nothing has happened to address it. The water authority has acted to tackle the problem of water discoloration by scouring the pipes.

Donald Gorrie, Alex Neil and Cathy Peattie are right about the need to ensure that there is high investment in our water facilities. There have been attempts to deal with sediment that has built up by reorganising the pipe layout on Angus Road.

I am struck that Michael Connarty has taken up the issue on more than one occasion. Anyone who knows him will be aware that he is not the sort of person who can be fobbed off—he is a persistent character. Information that he has chased up has reassured him that there is no risk to public health, the only evidence of contamination being the sample that was taken in November 1998.

I would have hoped that the explanations that Mr Matheson has received, both from East of Scotland Water and from Forth Valley Health Board, would have reassured him that there is not a big problem with the water supply in Bo'ness.

Mr Neil is right to welcome the fact that we have had an opportunity to debate the issue. I should add that the matter was followed up by the Scottish Office after a series of complaints were made both to the local authority and to East of Scotland Water. The health authorities have been fully consulted. It is not just the water authority that has to account for itself—Forth Valley Health Board is involved, as well as the local authorities. There is a procedure that must be followed.

The water authorities are under a statutory obligation to produce an annual report on water quality in their area, and to submit that both to the local authorities and to the Executive. I stress that, if members of the public have concerns about their water supply, the water authorities will take samples from their tap and analyse them to ensure compliance with regulations. Customers will be informed of the results of that analysis. We also produce an annual report on the quality of drinking water, which was submitted to the Parliament's information centre and which I announced in a press release. I encourage members present to study that statement and to identify issues that they may wish to raise with me in the light of it.

Local authorities have a statutory duty to keep themselves informed about the quality of water supply in their areas. The water authorities are required to notify the local authorities, the health board and the Scottish Executive of any event that affects or is likely to affect the water supply in their area. There is a clear set of procedures.

I agree with the points that Donald Gorrie made about investment in public services. Significant investment is being made in East of Scotland Water to meet the requirements that are set by Europe and the Scottish Executive. However, I would dispute his comment that we have replaced Conservative councillors with Labour councillors. There is a process of applications, and local people—not just councillors—can apply to sit on water authorities. The appointments that were made this year showed an interesting mix of political backgrounds—the appointees were not all Labour members. The Water Industry Act 1999

gives us the transparency that Mr Gorrie and Mr Neil are looking for. We are in a period of transition: we have a new Parliament, new water legislation and a new water industry commissioner. We have the opportunity to get things right.

It is important that we make sure that when complaints are raised, they are followed up. The specific case that we are discussing today was checked by the Scottish Office earlier this year and officials have told me that they are satisfied that the correct approach was taken.

Water authorities have to hold regular meetings with consultants in public health medicine from the health boards in their supply area—it is not only people in the water authorities who are involved in discussions. If a water quality issue is thought to pose a threat to public health, those consultants have to advise the authorities on whether it is safe to continue using the water. If a hazard is thought likely to affect more than a small number of people, the consultants in public health medicine will advise that a multi-agency incident control team be set up to co-ordinate the investigation and management of the hazard. The primary aim of the incident control team is always to protect public health.

Operational support and advice is provided by the Scottish Centre for Infection and Environmental Health, which is frequently consulted by consultants in public health medicine and by local authority environmental health departments. The centre is satisfied that there is a clearly defined and effective mechanism for providing medical advice on water quality issues within Scotland.

Cathy Peattie raised a point about the way in which we test water. In this case, a problem with the way in which we test water has led to the debate. A water sample was collected and tested, but it was not collected in controlled circumstances. I am told that there must be a chain of custody. For instance, if someone was being tested for drugs, neither they nor any sample that they were required to provide would be left unsupervised. The same applies to testing for water quality.

We can never be complacent, but I am satisfied that the facts of the case that we are discussing have been examined and that there is no on-going pollution problem with the domestic water supply, nor is there a risk to public health. I am also satisfied that East of Scotland Water operated in an open and accountable manner and that there is no need for a review further to the review that has already been carried out.

I thank Mr Matheson for raising the issue because there is a need to ensure that local issues are dealt with effectively and through the correct procedures.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:08.9207112+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2133E222P520C711876", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27073, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 359.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27074, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 360.0, "QuestionHeading": "Freedom of Information", "QuestionHeadingID": 27075, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 361.0, "DisplayOrder": 361.0, "ID": 27075, "ParentID": 27074 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Matheson, Michael", "ID": 2133, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Matheson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Matheson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 364.0, "ContributionID": 711876, "EditedText": "Last week, Jim Wallace spoke about the pros and cons of a human rights commission in Scotland. Does the Lord Advocate agree that one of the pros would be that a commission could enforce such legislation so that it actually worked rather than ending up on the shelf? Will he ensure that proper consultation takes place with Scottish bodies on freedom of information? Will he confirm that he will not take on the responsibilities or take the actions that Jack Straw proposes to take at Westminster?", "EditedTextHTML": "Last week, Jim Wallace spoke about the pros and cons of a human rights commission in Scotland. Does the Lord Advocate agree that one of the pros would be that a commission could enforce such legislation so that it actually worked rather than ending up on the shelf? Will he ensure that proper consultation takes place with Scottish bodies on freedom of information? Will he confirm that he will not take on the responsibilities or take the actions that Jack Straw proposes to take at Westminster?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:12.769626+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2133E222P520C712068", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Domestic Water Supply (Bo'ness)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27101, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 764.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 764.0, "ID": 27101, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Matheson, Michael", "ID": 2133, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Matheson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Matheson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 775.0, "ContributionID": 712068, "EditedText": "Cathy, you had several meetings with Falkirk Council that you did not inform me of and it was Falkirk Council itself that informed me about the European funding. I understand that Michael Connarty MP was dealing with it—I would like to think he kept you informed.", "EditedTextHTML": "Cathy, you had several meetings with Falkirk Council that you did not inform me of and it was Falkirk Council itself that informed me about the European funding. I understand that Michael Connarty MP was dealing with it—I would like to think he kept you informed.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:20.9827029+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1931E120P189C711723", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ethical Standards in Public Life Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27069, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27069, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Muldoon, Bristow", "ID": 1931, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Livingston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bristow Muldoon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bristow Muldoon (Livingston) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 39.0, "ContributionID": 711723, "EditedText": "As we are talking about a bill on ethical standards, I ought to declare an interest. My wife is a serving councillor—placed there not by cronyism, I have to add, but by the good people of Broxburn. Given that the minister has commended some of the councils, such as Glasgow City Council and West Lothian Council, that have established standards committees, why has he not compelled all local authorities to establish standards committees? What role does he see the councils that do establish such committees playing with the standards commission?", "EditedTextHTML": "As we are talking about a bill on ethical standards, I ought to declare an interest. My wife is a serving councillor—placed there not by cronyism, I have to add, but by the good people of Broxburn.

Given that the minister has commended some of the councils, such as Glasgow City Council and West Lothian Council, that have established standards committees, why has he not compelled all local authorities to establish standards committees? What role does he see the councils that do establish such committees playing with the standards commission?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5295195+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711708", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ethical Standards in Public Life Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27069, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27069, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 9.0, "ContributionID": 711708, "EditedText": "Many members wish to speak in the economic debate, so I will restrict questions to the minister to 20 minutes. I ask members to make their questions brief.", "EditedTextHTML": "Many members wish to speak in the economic debate, so I will restrict questions to the minister to 20 minutes. I ask members to make their questions brief.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1973E119P326C711713", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ethical Standards in Public Life Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27069, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27069, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gorrie, Donald", "ID": 1973, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Donald Gorrie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Donald Gorrie (Central Scotland) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 19.0, "ContributionID": 711713, "EditedText": "On behalf of the Liberal Democrats, I welcome the general tenor and purpose of all parts of the bill and its proposals. We will work in this Parliament, and in local government, to make the bill as good as possible. Will the minister allow councillors and MSPs toplay a vigorous role in drawing up clear-cut rules? That seems to be the essence of the matter. Declarations of interest, and so on, are a bit peripheral. We need absolutely clear-cut rules for elected people and officials, and I hope that he will consider local government officials, civil servants, MSPs, people on quangos and councillors. For example, when I refused an offer of a freebie to go to Hampden, was I daft or was I being sensible? I want to know the rules that set that out. The rules are absolutely essential. If a council produced a robust system of dealing with first-line complaints, would the minister consider building that into the system, allowing that those complaints would have to be reported to the central body? Quite a lot of problems could be sorted out locally, while retaining public confidence. Finally, what level of proof does the minister think that the standards commission will require? I got into great trouble with esteemed former council colleagues for making the obvious point to the Nolan committee that corruption takes place privately. If a developer gives an envelope full of used notes to a councillor, he does so in a darkened room and with nobody else present, so that his actions cannot be proved. The level of proof that is required is an interesting point.", "EditedTextHTML": "On behalf of the Liberal Democrats, I welcome the general tenor and purpose of all parts of the bill and its proposals. We will work in this Parliament, and in local government, to make the bill as good as possible.

Will the minister allow councillors and MSPs to

play a vigorous role in drawing up clear-cut rules? That seems to be the essence of the matter. Declarations of interest, and so on, are a bit peripheral. We need absolutely clear-cut rules for elected people and officials, and I hope that he will consider local government officials, civil servants, MSPs, people on quangos and councillors. For example, when I refused an offer of a freebie to go to Hampden, was I daft or was I being sensible? I want to know the rules that set that out. The rules are absolutely essential. If a council produced a robust system of dealing with first-line complaints, would the minister consider building that into the system, allowing that those complaints would have to be reported to the central body? Quite a lot of problems could be sorted out locally, while retaining public confidence.

Finally, what level of proof does the minister think that the standards commission will require? I got into great trouble with esteemed former council colleagues for making the obvious point to the Nolan committee that corruption takes place privately. If a developer gives an envelope full of used notes to a councillor, he does so in a darkened room and with nobody else present, so that his actions cannot be proved. The level of proof that is required is an interesting point.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C711717", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ethical Standards in Public Life Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27069, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27069, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 27.0, "ContributionID": 711717, "EditedText": "Will the minister follow the practice that he adopted in the City of Glasgow Council, by ensuring political balance in the standards commission and by rotating the chairmanship? Furthermore, will local enterprise companies be included in the scope of the bill, and will the bill deal specifically with problems of lobbying and lobbyists?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister follow the practice that he adopted in the City of Glasgow Council, by ensuring political balance in the standards commission and by rotating the chairmanship? Furthermore, will local enterprise companies be included in the scope of the bill, and will the bill deal specifically with problems of lobbying and lobbyists?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1803E78P291C711719", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ethical Standards in Public Life Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27069, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27069, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gillon, Karen", "ID": 1803, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Clydesdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Karen Gillon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Karen Gillon (Clydesdale) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 31.0, "ContributionID": 711719, "EditedText": "Does the minister agree that the bill sets out a path to a greater public confidence in those who are elected, and that that is to be welcomed? Will he indicate the way in which the repeal of section 2A will affect those in wider education—in community education, for example—and what impact it will have on them?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the minister agree that the bill sets out a path to a greater public confidence in those who are elected, and that that is to be welcomed? Will he indicate the way in which the repeal of section 2A will affect those in wider education—in community education, for example—and what impact it will have on them?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1762E216P508C711721", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ethical Standards in Public Life Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27069, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27069, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Elder, Dorothy-Grace", "ID": 1762, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 35.0, "ContributionID": 711721, "EditedText": "I welcome any measure that seeks to improve standards in public life. However, I heard no proposal to stamp out that continuing and insidious threat to equality that is known as cronyism. The appointment of friends, relatives, placed people and councillors from only one party—guess which—to public bodies has become a traditional form of what might be called cosy corruption. Brown envelopes are not necessarily involved, but there may be a web that controls many areas of Scotland, particularly in the west. I would like to hear Frank McAveety's view on what can be done to stamp out cronyism. I would also like to hear his view on people in public life taking a full public oath against cronyism and against corruption in any form whatsoever.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome any measure that seeks to improve standards in public life. However, I heard no proposal to stamp out that continuing and insidious threat to equality that is known as cronyism. The appointment of friends, relatives, placed people and councillors from only one party—guess which—to public bodies has become a traditional form of what might be called cosy corruption. Brown envelopes are not necessarily involved, but there may be a web that controls many areas of Scotland, particularly in the west. I would like to hear Frank McAveety's view on what can be done to stamp out cronyism. I would also like to hear his view on people in public life taking a full public oath against cronyism and against corruption in any form whatsoever.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1996E124P211C711722", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ethical Standards in Public Life Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27069, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27069, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAveety, Mr Frank", "ID": 1996, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Shettleston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Local Government", "SpeakerName": "Frank McAveety", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McAveety: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 37.0, "ContributionID": 711722, "EditedText": "There is a remarkable symmetry in Dorothy-Grace Elder being cheered by the Conservatives. After the Tories' track record, there is some remarkable surrealism in this chamber. Dorothy is wonderful at tabloid-speak and at linguistic caricaturing. I appreciate the fact that she has spent many years—that is the best euphemism that I can find—engaging in that sort of use of language. However, if she wants to raise those matters, she will have the opportunity to influence the debate during the progress of the bill. We recognise the issues that Dorothy raised. We want to reassure individuals throughout Scotland that those of us who are in public service operate in the public interest rather than with self- interest. I cannot remember her ever writing positively about the creation of a standards committee in Glasgow. My main reason for addressing that question is that I want to reassure people, irrespective of their political stance or party, about people in public office. I caution Dorothy against playing the game of claiming that one party is intrinsically morally superior to the other, when individuals in all parties have erred. That would put us on shaky ground. We should recognise the broader picture. Dorothy can raise the issues that she has mentioned during the discussion of the general principles of the bill. I welcome a learned and intelligent contribution from her at that stage.", "EditedTextHTML": "There is a remarkable symmetry in Dorothy-Grace Elder being cheered by the Conservatives. After the Tories' track record, there is some remarkable surrealism in this chamber.

Dorothy is wonderful at tabloid-speak and at linguistic caricaturing. I appreciate the fact that she has spent many years—that is the best euphemism that I can find—engaging in that sort of use of language. However, if she wants to raise those matters, she will have the opportunity to influence the debate during the progress of the bill.

We recognise the issues that Dorothy raised. We want to reassure individuals throughout Scotland that those of us who are in public service operate in the public interest rather than with self- interest. I cannot remember her ever writing positively about the creation of a standards committee in Glasgow.

My main reason for addressing that question is that I want to reassure people, irrespective of their political stance or party, about people in public office. I caution Dorothy against playing the game of claiming that one party is intrinsically morally superior to the other, when individuals in all parties have erred. That would put us on shaky ground. We should recognise the broader picture.

Dorothy can raise the issues that she has mentioned during the discussion of the general principles of the bill. I welcome a learned and intelligent contribution from her at that stage.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711725", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ethical Standards in Public Life Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27069, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27069, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 43.0, "ContributionID": 711725, "EditedText": "I apologise to the four members whom I have not called, but we will be returning to this subject again.", "EditedTextHTML": "I apologise to the four members whom I have not called, but we will be returning to this subject again.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711726", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 46.0, "ContributionID": 711726, "EditedText": "This morning's main debate is on the modernisation of the Scottish economy. I call Henry McLeish to speak to and move the motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "This morning's main debate is on the modernisation of the Scottish economy. I call Henry McLeish to speak to and move the motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C711730", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 55.0, "ContributionID": 711730, "EditedText": "Because it is out of order, I will not respond to Mr Swinney's question. Suffice to say, if I were at least five stones lighter, I might have been able to run a bit, but I could not have compared with the stars whose talents were on display yesterday. Turning to the real business of the morning, I want to use the opportunity that this debate offers to outline the Scottish Executive's vision of a modern, vibrant and successful economy. We have come a long way in the past 100 years. The Scottish economy has evolved and diversified and it continues to do so. A snapshot of the structure of our employment shows that the heavy industry that once dominated our economy now sits alongside manufacturing, construction, agriculture, energy-supply industries and utilities, financial and business services, public services, retail and tourism, with nearly 200,000 people selfemployed. This is a modern economy, but we cannot stand still against the challenges of global competition. As a nation we must continue to drive forward technological boundaries and embrace new ways of doing business, such as e-commerce and the internet. There is no simple solution to the challenges that are thrown up by global competition and we must tackle this issue on many fronts. Modernisation cuts across whole areas of society and the economy, and is largely dependent on our ability as a society to change our attitudes and expectations, and to be receptive to learning new skills. It is natural to want to hold on to familiar ways, but if we are to remain successful we must not stand in the way of progress. Yes, we must learn from the traditional industries and help them to develop, but we must also be prepared to look forward and to innovate. If we can do that, we can all look forward to higher standards of living and a society in which there is opportunity for everyone to benefit. The economy has already undergone enormous change in the past few decades and that is a tribute to the resilience and adaptability of the people of Scotland. We are already used to the process of change, but perhaps not to the accelerating rate of change. The challenges that we face are largely to do with developing our responsiveness to new global market trends. With our exports dominated by just three sectors—electronics, chemicals and drinks— we need to innovate and diversify into new growth sectors to keep up with our competitors. We need to address our below average company formation rate. We need to boost company spend on research and development. We must also ensure that there is a greater spread of wealth across Scotland in both urban and rural areas so that we can create a truly inclusive society and counter the significant variations in gross domestic product and unemployment. An overarching aim of this Parliament and of our nation must be to create a high and stable level of employment. Our goal must be job opportunities for all people, throughout their working lives. I hardly need to remind Parliament of the intensity of the competitive pressures that are now a feature of trading in a global marketplace. The harsh reality is clear. The recent decision by Marks and Spencer to source more of its clothing ranges from offshore producers is an example of that. Business is now being done globally in many sectors and we should acknowledge that reality. Not only are we under pressure from low wage costs overseas, but the quality of the production processes that can be managed overseas is also improving. Globalisation is being fuelled by advances in information and communication technologies, which make it much easier to control quality remotely. E-commerce is also becoming an ever more attractive way of doing business. It will no doubt feature in the debate this morning. Modern knowledge and information technology based industries are location neutral and therefore have the potential to compensate for Scotland's peripherality and distance from some markets. Virtually every sector of our industry will be affected by this new industrial revolution and by increased international financial flows. We must accept and acknowledge that basic manufacturing operations in advanced economies will continue to evolve, and we should recognise both the challenge and the difficulties involved. We need to consider the opportunities for our nation in research, design and the development of innovative products. I shall touch briefly on the economic backdrop to this debate. The economic climate for bringing about change has never been better. I am confident that Scotland is already involved in leading-edge technology in a number of areas, such as biotechnology. My recent visits to Remedios in Aberdeen and to Cyclacel in Dundee confirmed that opinion. We need to continue to capitalise and expand on the success of such firms. Thanks to the chancellor, we have economic stability with low interest rates, low inflation and sound public finances. Many commentators have noted the growing confidence of employers. The Confederation of British Industry recently reported that optimism among manufacturers has continued to grow and is now at its highest level since April 1995. The Bank of Scotland's October survey reported that manufacturing output rose at the fastest rate since January 1998. Our electronics sector continues to burgeon, with output in electrical engineering continuing its almost inexorable rise over the last six years— about 9 per cent in the latest four quarters. Service sector activity rose for the 12th consecutive month. There are opportunities for employment growth in the newer sectors, including biotechnology, software development, multimedia and call centres. Since 1 April 1999, 16 companies have announced plans to create nearly 8,500 jobs in Scotland. Yesterday we had further good news on unemployment. The trend remains firmly down, with the lowest claimant count for nearly a quarter of a century. As was mentioned by the chancellor last week, this is a wonderful opportunity for us to see employment rise and unemployment fall over the next months and years. The chancellor's pre-budget speech last week showed the Government's intention to provide the right conditions for speeding up the modernisation of the UK economy by stimulating enterprise and entrepreneurship—a factor mentioned in the Conservative amendment.", "EditedTextHTML": "Because it is out of order, I will not respond to Mr Swinney's question. Suffice to say, if I were at least five stones lighter, I might have been able to run a bit, but I could not have compared with the stars whose talents were on display yesterday.

Turning to the real business of the morning, I want to use the opportunity that this debate offers to outline the Scottish Executive's vision of a modern, vibrant and successful economy. We have come a long way in the past 100 years. The Scottish economy has evolved and diversified and it continues to do so. A snapshot of the structure of our employment shows that the heavy industry that once dominated our economy now sits alongside manufacturing, construction, agriculture, energy-supply industries and utilities, financial and business services, public services, retail and tourism, with nearly 200,000 people self

employed. This is a modern economy, but we cannot stand still against the challenges of global competition. As a nation we must continue to drive forward technological boundaries and embrace new ways of doing business, such as e-commerce and the internet.

There is no simple solution to the challenges that are thrown up by global competition and we must tackle this issue on many fronts. Modernisation cuts across whole areas of society and the economy, and is largely dependent on our ability as a society to change our attitudes and expectations, and to be receptive to learning new skills. It is natural to want to hold on to familiar ways, but if we are to remain successful we must not stand in the way of progress. Yes, we must learn from the traditional industries and help them to develop, but we must also be prepared to look forward and to innovate. If we can do that, we can all look forward to higher standards of living and a society in which there is opportunity for everyone to benefit.

The economy has already undergone enormous change in the past few decades and that is a tribute to the resilience and adaptability of the people of Scotland. We are already used to the process of change, but perhaps not to the accelerating rate of change.

The challenges that we face are largely to do with developing our responsiveness to new global market trends. With our exports dominated by just three sectors—electronics, chemicals and drinks— we need to innovate and diversify into new growth sectors to keep up with our competitors. We need to address our below average company formation rate. We need to boost company spend on research and development. We must also ensure that there is a greater spread of wealth across Scotland in both urban and rural areas so that we can create a truly inclusive society and counter the significant variations in gross domestic product and unemployment.

An overarching aim of this Parliament and of our nation must be to create a high and stable level of employment. Our goal must be job opportunities for all people, throughout their working lives. I hardly need to remind Parliament of the intensity of the competitive pressures that are now a feature of trading in a global marketplace. The harsh reality is clear. The recent decision by Marks and Spencer to source more of its clothing ranges from offshore producers is an example of that. Business is now being done globally in many sectors and we should acknowledge that reality.

Not only are we under pressure from low wage costs overseas, but the quality of the production processes that can be managed overseas is also improving. Globalisation is being fuelled by advances in information and communication technologies, which make it much easier to control quality remotely. E-commerce is also becoming an ever more attractive way of doing business. It will no doubt feature in the debate this morning. Modern knowledge and information technology based industries are location neutral and therefore have the potential to compensate for Scotland's peripherality and distance from some markets.

Virtually every sector of our industry will be affected by this new industrial revolution and by increased international financial flows. We must accept and acknowledge that basic manufacturing operations in advanced economies will continue to evolve, and we should recognise both the challenge and the difficulties involved. We need to consider the opportunities for our nation in research, design and the development of innovative products.

I shall touch briefly on the economic backdrop to this debate. The economic climate for bringing about change has never been better. I am confident that Scotland is already involved in leading-edge technology in a number of areas, such as biotechnology. My recent visits to Remedios in Aberdeen and to Cyclacel in Dundee confirmed that opinion. We need to continue to capitalise and expand on the success of such firms.

Thanks to the chancellor, we have economic stability with low interest rates, low inflation and sound public finances. Many commentators have noted the growing confidence of employers. The Confederation of British Industry recently reported that optimism among manufacturers has continued to grow and is now at its highest level since April 1995. The Bank of Scotland's October survey reported that manufacturing output rose at the fastest rate since January 1998.

Our electronics sector continues to burgeon, with output in electrical engineering continuing its almost inexorable rise over the last six years— about 9 per cent in the latest four quarters. Service sector activity rose for the 12th consecutive month. There are opportunities for employment growth in the newer sectors, including biotechnology, software development, multimedia and call centres. Since 1 April 1999, 16 companies have announced plans to create nearly 8,500 jobs in Scotland. Yesterday we had further good news on unemployment. The trend remains firmly down, with the lowest claimant count for nearly a quarter of a century. As was mentioned by the chancellor last week, this is a wonderful opportunity for us to see employment rise and unemployment fall over the next months and years.

The chancellor's pre-budget speech last week showed the Government's intention to provide the right conditions for speeding up the modernisation of the UK economy by stimulating enterprise and

entrepreneurship—a factor mentioned in the Conservative amendment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C711732", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 59.0, "ContributionID": 711732, "EditedText": "John Swinney will know that contributions were made to the Executive from the political parties in the Parliament on, for example, the climate change levy and the fuel escalator. All of those issues were raised in Scotland and have been discussed in this Parliament. As part of the normal machinery of government there has been dialogue with the Treasury and the Department of Trade and Industry on those and other issues. Even on matters reserved to Westminster, this Parliament has real power and clout and the Executive will use it at every opportunity to ensure that Scotland's interests are represented, whether on devolved or on reserved matters.", "EditedTextHTML": "John Swinney will know that contributions were made to the Executive from the political parties in the Parliament on, for example, the climate change levy and the fuel escalator. All of those issues were raised in Scotland and have been discussed in this Parliament. As part of the normal machinery of government there has been dialogue with the Treasury and the Department of Trade and Industry on those and other issues. Even on matters reserved to Westminster, this Parliament has real power and clout and the Executive will use it at every opportunity to ensure that Scotland's interests are represented, whether on devolved or on reserved matters.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C711739", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Murray Tosh (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 73.0, "ContributionID": 711739, "EditedText": "Will the minister say when the Government will make a statement on its strategic policy for Scotland's port developments, what it will do about Scotland's strategic rail freight developments, and when it will address the problems of the interface between England and Scotland—the M6 and M74 and the comprehensive upgrading of the A1—all of which are critical to Scotland's long-term transport infrastructure?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister say when the Government will make a statement on its strategic policy for Scotland's port developments, what it will do about Scotland's strategic rail freight developments, and when it will address the problems of the interface between England and Scotland—the M6 and M74 and the comprehensive upgrading of the A1—all of which are critical to Scotland's long-term transport infrastructure?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C711740", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 75.0, "ContributionID": 711740, "EditedText": "That was a long contribution and I could reflect on it further. I take those points seriously. Scotland's infrastructure needs to be invested in and modernised. Indeed, Sarah Boyack has started to do that with her statement on the strategic roads review. All of those developments are part of the framework. There is no point in aiming for a sound, prosperous economy if we do not have the infrastructure to back it up. In Sarah's absence I am happy to pass on Murray Tosh's comments and, of course, they will appear in the Official Report.", "EditedTextHTML": "That was a long contribution and I could reflect on it further. I take those points seriously. Scotland's infrastructure needs to be invested in and modernised. Indeed, Sarah Boyack has started to do that with her statement on the strategic roads review. All of those developments are part of the framework. There is no point in aiming for a sound, prosperous economy if we do not have the infrastructure to back it up. In Sarah's absence I am happy to pass on Murray Tosh's comments and, of course, they will appear in the Official Report.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C711742", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 79.0, "ContributionID": 711742, "EditedText": "There is widespread agreement in Scotland about the importance of that link. Sarah reflected on the strategic roads review in her statement. Certain schemes are going ahead, while other big schemes are being developed further. There is no point in distorting the argument. Scotland wants a modern infrastructure and will get it, but some of the political parties have to face up to the fact that finance cannot be plucked out of thin air. We have to deal with harsh priorities and realities. Thirdly, we must do more to create an entrepreneurial culture and new businesses. The document \"Making it Work Together\" sets targets: we want 100,000 new Scottish businesses by 2009; the establishment of a Scottish institute of enterprise by 2001; the introduction of a new business mentoring scheme by April 2000; and the rapid acceleration of technology transfer, including the commercialisation of science. Those are just a few examples of what we are doing. Fourthly, we must broaden and raise our skill levels. If we are to embrace the lifelong learning revolution, we must connect resources and efforts in order to improve our education system at all levels. That is why we are committing resources to enable 42,000 more students to enter further and higher education by 2002. That is why we are setting up the Scottish university for industry and supporting the University of the Highlands and Islands. That is why we are going to create a further 10,000 modern apprenticeships and 100,000 individual learning accounts. Finally, underpinning all of those initiatives, that is why our universities and colleges will be at the core of our new economy.", "EditedTextHTML": "There is widespread agreement in Scotland about the importance of that link. Sarah reflected on the strategic roads review in her statement. Certain schemes are going ahead, while other big schemes are being developed further. There is no point in distorting the argument. Scotland wants a modern infrastructure and will get it, but some of the political parties have to face up to the fact that finance cannot be plucked out of thin air. We have to deal with harsh priorities and realities.

Thirdly, we must do more to create an entrepreneurial culture and new businesses. The document \"Making it Work Together\" sets targets: we want 100,000 new Scottish businesses by 2009; the establishment of a Scottish institute of enterprise by 2001; the introduction of a new business mentoring scheme by April 2000; and the rapid acceleration of technology transfer, including

the commercialisation of science. Those are just a few examples of what we are doing.

Fourthly, we must broaden and raise our skill levels. If we are to embrace the lifelong learning revolution, we must connect resources and efforts in order to improve our education system at all levels. That is why we are committing resources to enable 42,000 more students to enter further and higher education by 2002. That is why we are setting up the Scottish university for industry and supporting the University of the Highlands and Islands. That is why we are going to create a further 10,000 modern apprenticeships and 100,000 individual learning accounts. Finally, underpinning all of those initiatives, that is why our universities and colleges will be at the core of our new economy.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2154E194P299C711748", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stephen, Nicol", "ID": 2154, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Nicol Stephen", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning (Nicol Stephen): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 92.0, "ContributionID": 711748, "EditedText": "No he is not.", "EditedTextHTML": "No he is not.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C711746", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 88.0, "ContributionID": 711746, "EditedText": "I am willing to enter into a deal with John Swinney, which is that in my efforts to cut down initiative overload he promises in the debate today to give us one scintilla of an SNP proposal to improve the Scottish economy that is not about the waffle of macro-economic strategy or its obsession with interest rates. If he agrees to that deal and specifies the SNP's policies for improving the Scottish economy, I will be delighted to go further on my activity overload.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am willing to enter into a deal with John Swinney, which is that in my efforts to cut down initiative overload he promises in the debate today to give us one scintilla of an SNP proposal to improve the Scottish economy that is not about the waffle of macro-economic strategy or its obsession with interest rates. If he agrees to that deal and specifies the SNP's policies for improving the Scottish economy, I will be delighted to go further on my activity overload.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C711752", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Annabel Goldie (West of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 101.0, "ContributionID": 711752, "EditedText": "I welcome the Executive's motion for two reasons. First, it offers for debate a subject that is of vital interest to Scotland. Secondly—and refreshingly—it does not seek to slaver fulsome praise and adulation all over the Executive. From Mr McLeish, I would expect nothing less. Those two features of the motion are innovatory, and I hope that they will become the hallmarks of future debates. Mr Swinney referred to the Conservative amendment. We did not excise support for the concept of modernisation—that is specifically retained—but we framed our amendment as we did because we detected something of a tautology in the motion. If the amendment is read with the motion, it is clear that we embrace the need for modernisation. The Conservative party is glad to contribute to a meaningful debate but finds the motion unexceptionable. Indeed, it is so anodyne as to be almost soporific—along the lines of a fireside chat. We want to amend the motion to focus attention on specific areas that, if they are not dealt with, will not only obstruct the modernisation of the Scottish economy but set us back from where we are. Before discussing the motion and the amendment in more detail, a quick spring clean round the Executive's cupboard marked \"Business\" would be timely, because I see in there some items that should head for the skip without delay. They include excessive rolls of red tape— as the minister knows, a favourite theme of mine. There have been 2,600 new Labour regulations since May 1997, which represents grim news for business. Joining the red tape is the box marked \"No new roads\", to which passing reference has been made. As an item in the Executive's enterprise portfolio, \"No new roads\" has no place in a modern enterprise economy. In the current economic climate, asking local authorities to assume responsibility for matters such as the M74 extension is like asking granny to take part in the 400 m hurdles. The Scottish Executive should not hide behind the skirts of local authorities, but examine the current enterprise budget and, with the private sector, identify funds for the improvement of our roads infrastructure. That is synonymous with sound business investment, as business cannot function without an adequate roads infrastructure. Well worth taking out of the Executive's business cupboard and dusting down are two boxes marked \"Education\" and \"Training\". It might even be worth while looking in those boxes to see what they contain. If our education system and training schemes are driven by a vacuum of provision, rather than by the demand-led needs of business and industry, we shall end up hitting a wall at the end of a cul-de-sac.In the recent debate on the Scottish university for industry, I asked the minister what consultation had taken place with industry and how industry had responded. Answer came there none. Inquiries that I have made from business about the Scottish university for industry have not elicited a flattering response. Such initiatives, if not validated by demonstrable business demand, are at risk of damaged credibility and dismissal as tokenism, which would be unfortunate, as there is merit in the concept of a Scottish university for industry. If, in the Labour business cupboard, there is a shelf creaking with the burden that it bears, it is the shelf marked \"Tax\". That shelf is in danger of coming away from the wall. The Conservative party is calling on the minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer to lighten that burden. I do not share Mr Swinney's observations on the merits of macro-economic decisions being taken exclusively in Scotland. I am a supporter of the United Kingdom and a firm believer in the union, particularly in the advantages that it has brought to our trading position.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the Executive's motion for two reasons. First, it offers for debate a subject that is of vital interest to Scotland. Secondly—and refreshingly—it does not seek to slaver fulsome praise and adulation all over the Executive. From Mr McLeish, I would expect nothing less. Those two features of the motion are innovatory, and I hope that they will become the hallmarks of future debates.

Mr Swinney referred to the Conservative amendment. We did not excise support for the concept of modernisation—that is specifically retained—but we framed our amendment as we did because we detected something of a tautology in the motion. If the amendment is read with the motion, it is clear that we embrace the need for modernisation.

The Conservative party is glad to contribute to a meaningful debate but finds the motion unexceptionable. Indeed, it is so anodyne as to be almost soporific—along the lines of a fireside chat. We want to amend the motion to focus attention on specific areas that, if they are not dealt with, will not only obstruct the modernisation of the Scottish economy but set us back from where we are.

Before discussing the motion and the amendment in more detail, a quick spring clean round the Executive's cupboard marked \"Business\" would be timely, because I see in there some items that should head for the skip without delay. They include excessive rolls of red tape— as the minister knows, a favourite theme of mine. There have been 2,600 new Labour regulations since May 1997, which represents grim news for business.

Joining the red tape is the box marked \"No new roads\", to which passing reference has been made. As an item in the Executive's enterprise portfolio, \"No new roads\" has no place in a modern enterprise economy. In the current economic climate, asking local authorities to assume responsibility for matters such as the M74 extension is like asking granny to take part in the 400 m hurdles. The Scottish Executive should not hide behind the skirts of local authorities, but examine the current enterprise budget and, with the private sector, identify funds for the improvement of our roads infrastructure. That is synonymous with sound business investment, as business cannot function without an adequate roads infrastructure.

Well worth taking out of the Executive's business cupboard and dusting down are two boxes marked \"Education\" and \"Training\". It might even be worth while looking in those boxes to see what they contain. If our education system and training schemes are driven by a vacuum of provision, rather than by the demand-led needs of business and industry, we shall end up hitting a

wall at the end of a cul-de-sac.

In the recent debate on the Scottish university for industry, I asked the minister what consultation had taken place with industry and how industry had responded. Answer came there none. Inquiries that I have made from business about the Scottish university for industry have not elicited a flattering response. Such initiatives, if not validated by demonstrable business demand, are at risk of damaged credibility and dismissal as tokenism, which would be unfortunate, as there is merit in the concept of a Scottish university for industry.

If, in the Labour business cupboard, there is a shelf creaking with the burden that it bears, it is the shelf marked \"Tax\". That shelf is in danger of coming away from the wall. The Conservative party is calling on the minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer to lighten that burden. I do not share Mr Swinney's observations on the merits of macro-economic decisions being taken exclusively in Scotland. I am a supporter of the United Kingdom and a firm believer in the union, particularly in the advantages that it has brought to our trading position.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C711753", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 103.0, "ContributionID": 711753, "EditedText": "Leaving aside Miss Goldie's romantic attachment to the outmoded idea of Westminster, may I ask whether she agrees with Mr Swinney and the SNP that it would be useful for Scotland to be able to lower corporate tax to the Irish and Austrian levels? Would not she rather have the power to make such changes than the romance of Great Britain?", "EditedTextHTML": "Leaving aside Miss Goldie's romantic attachment to the outmoded idea of Westminster, may I ask whether she agrees with Mr Swinney and the SNP that it would be useful for Scotland to be able to lower corporate tax to the Irish and Austrian levels? Would not she rather have the power to make such changes than the romance of Great Britain?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C711760", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Goldie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 117.0, "ContributionID": 711760, "EditedText": "I have a lot to get through and I want to make progress.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have a lot to get through and I want to make progress.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C711761", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 119.0, "ContributionID": 711761, "EditedText": "You did not flatter her enough, Alex.", "EditedTextHTML": "You did not flatter her enough, Alex.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C711769", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon (Argyll and Bute) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 136.0, "ContributionID": 711769, "EditedText": "On behalf of the Scottish Liberal Democrats, welcome this important debate, which raises an issue that the Parliament should address. As John Swinney said, there is similarity between what we are discussing now and what we will be discussing in the debate this afternoon on digital Scotland. There is a fair bit of overlap; that could have been thought through a little better. The Liberal Democrats—like, I am sure, all members—welcome the decrease in the unemployment figures that were announced yesterday. Those figures demonstrate that we have a stable economy that is delivering real benefits: growth and a fall in unemployment. What are the difficulties that face Scotland? They are the challenges that the Scottish Parliament has to take head on: we are a small, peripheral economy on the edge of Europe, which gives us severe disadvantages in some areas. We are remote from our major markets, highly reliant on exports—", "EditedTextHTML": "On behalf of the Scottish Liberal Democrats, welcome this important debate, which raises an issue that the Parliament should address.

As John Swinney said, there is similarity between what we are discussing now and what we will be discussing in the debate this afternoon on digital Scotland. There is a fair bit of overlap; that could have been thought through a little better.

The Liberal Democrats—like, I am sure, all members—welcome the decrease in the

unemployment figures that were announced yesterday. Those figures demonstrate that we have a stable economy that is delivering real benefits: growth and a fall in unemployment.

What are the difficulties that face Scotland? They are the challenges that the Scottish Parliament has to take head on: we are a small, peripheral economy on the edge of Europe, which gives us severe disadvantages in some areas. We are remote from our major markets, highly reliant on exports—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C711771", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 140.0, "ContributionID": 711771, "EditedText": "We are still on the periphery. If Mr Quinan had taken geography at school, he might realise that. Fifty-two per cent of our exports are to the UK market and 29 per cent are to Europe. We are very much an export-driven economy. Another major problem that our economy faces is that we have a narrow base, in terms of spread and diversification; that has to be tackled over the longer term. Previous speakers have alluded to the fact that we seem to lack a spirit—or culture—of enterprise. Again, any change will not occur by an edict of the Parliament. There is a severe cultural issue that we must try to address, not by stigmatising failure, but by praising those who have tried, failed and tried again, and have been successful the second time round. As has been said, our business start-up rate is significantly lower than that of many other countries. The start-up figures in Scotland for the period 1980 to 1996 were 3.9 per 1,000 of the working population. The figure for the south-east of England was 6.9 per 1,000, which shows that we are lagging well behind. I welcome the partnership Government's commitment to creating 100,000 new businesses over the next 10 years. Again, that will not happen just through parliamentary edict. We must ensure that we establish the right climate to allow those businesses—and the jobs that they will bring—to be created. Scotland is hampered by a lack of investment in research and development. Thirty-eight per cent of Scottish manufacturing plants carry out research and development, compared to 52 per cent just across the border in northern England. It is crucial that we address that gap if we are to develop a competitive business sector. The Parliament must tackle all those challenges. However, Scotland has overcome massive hurdles in the past, especially in our manufacturing sector. Our manufacturing economy was wholly based on heavy engineering and metal bashing, yet we now see a complete transformation, in which the electrical sector dominates. We do not have to worry about whether Scotland has the ability to face up to change—that has been demonstrated in the past. The task for the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Executive is to help that transformation as we face up to the new challenge of creating a knowledge-based and knowledge- driven economy.", "EditedTextHTML": "We are still on the periphery. If Mr Quinan had taken geography at school, he might realise that.

Fifty-two per cent of our exports are to the UK market and 29 per cent are to Europe. We are very much an export-driven economy. Another major problem that our economy faces is that we have a narrow base, in terms of spread and diversification; that has to be tackled over the longer term.

Previous speakers have alluded to the fact that we seem to lack a spirit—or culture—of enterprise. Again, any change will not occur by an edict of the Parliament. There is a severe cultural issue that we must try to address, not by stigmatising failure, but by praising those who have tried, failed and tried again, and have been successful the second time round.

As has been said, our business start-up rate is significantly lower than that of many other countries. The start-up figures in Scotland for the period 1980 to 1996 were 3.9 per 1,000 of the working population. The figure for the south-east of England was 6.9 per 1,000, which shows that we are lagging well behind. I welcome the partnership Government's commitment to creating 100,000 new businesses over the next 10 years. Again, that will not happen just through parliamentary edict. We must ensure that we establish the right climate to allow those businesses—and the jobs that they will bring—to be created.

Scotland is hampered by a lack of investment in research and development. Thirty-eight per cent of Scottish manufacturing plants carry out research and development, compared to 52 per cent just across the border in northern England. It is crucial that we address that gap if we are to develop a competitive business sector.

The Parliament must tackle all those challenges. However, Scotland has overcome massive hurdles in the past, especially in our manufacturing sector. Our manufacturing economy was wholly based on heavy engineering and metal bashing, yet we now see a complete transformation, in which the electrical sector dominates. We do not have to worry about whether Scotland has the ability to face up to change—that has been demonstrated in the past. The task for the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Executive is to help that transformation as we face up to the new challenge of creating a knowledge-based and knowledge- driven economy.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C711772", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 142.0, "ContributionID": 711772, "EditedText": "Will Mr Lyon acknowledge that one of the challenges that the Parliament will face is the increasing difficulty of moving our goods, whether the traditional manufactures or the manufactures of the future. I realise that he has only a little lectern today, but I hope that the Liberal Democrats have the independence to say that something needs to be done about our strategic transport links. So far, the partnership agreement has not addressed that issue.", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr Lyon acknowledge that one of the challenges that the Parliament will face is the increasing difficulty of moving our goods, whether the traditional manufactures or the manufactures of the future. I realise that he has only a little lectern today, but I hope that the Liberal Democrats have the independence to say that something needs to be done about our strategic transport links. So far, the partnership agreement has not addressed that issue.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C711773", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 144.0, "ContributionID": 711773, "EditedText": "I do not think that we will be taking £100 million or £200 million out of the enterprise budget and switching it into the transport budget to address what Mr Tosh alludes to as a problem, as the Conservatives committed themselves to doing in the transport debate. I do not think that that is the solution and I do not think that industry thinks that it is the solution.", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not think that we will be taking £100 million or £200 million out of the enterprise budget and switching it into the transport budget to address what Mr Tosh alludes to as a problem, as the Conservatives committed themselves to doing in the transport debate. I do not think that that is the solution and I do not think that industry thinks that it is the solution.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C711774", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Goldie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 146.0, "ContributionID": 711774, "EditedText": "Will Mr Lyon clarify how the problem of the roads infrastructure should be addressed? That problem is what stands in the way of much of his very favourable comment.", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr Lyon clarify how the problem of the roads infrastructure should be addressed? That problem is what stands in the way of much of his very favourable comment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C711775", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 148.0, "ContributionID": 711775, "EditedText": "We will not spend £100 million of the enterprise budget to take on that challenge. As part of the strategic roads review, we have announced significant investment in new roads. If we are serious about delivering the knowledge-driven economy and the lifelong learning agenda, it is vital that we break down the barriers between industry and higher and further education. By setting up a department of enterprise and lifelong learning, the Parliament has recognised that we need to bring those areas closer together. In itself, however, that will not break down the barriers. If we look closely at the big company sector, we can see that it has seized the lifelong learning agenda and is starting to drive it forward. Scottish Power, for example, has spent £2 million over the past three years on promoting individual learning accounts for its employees; that should be welcomed. The company realises the benefits of investing in its work force; it realises that that is crucial if it is to remain competitive. The BP- Amoco executives to whom I spoke to last week reinforced the need to invest in human capital to remain competitive in the marketplace, and there is no more competitive a marketplace than the oil industry. Similarly, attitudes are changing in the higher and further education sector. The agenda of commercialising the knowledge that lies within our educational institutes is being driven forward. The real challenge, however, is how to engage the small business sector. There have been several conferences over the past few weeks on issues such as e-commerce and lifelong learning; at one or two of them, there was no representative from the small business sector, despite the fact that that sector employs 50 per cent of the working population. If we cannot engage small business in this agenda, we will fail. Small businesses need better and easier access to information on lifelong learning. They need to understand the benefits of investing in training for their work force and to know that that will bring financial benefits. We need to bring small businesses into the lifelong learning agenda by establishing better networks between them and higher and further education. Most important, we need fewer Government initiatives. Small businesses are bewildered by the number of Government initiatives. Mr Swinney referred to the plethora of initiatives that were announced in the chancellor's pre-budget statement last week: the national high-tech venture capital fund; the network of regional venture capital funds; the new challenge for community finance; loan guarantees; the new small business service; and the joint infrastructure fund for university buildings. I would be grateful if the minister would let us know how many of those proposals will affect Scotland, and what Scotland's influence will be on those initiatives.", "EditedTextHTML": "We will not spend £100 million of the enterprise budget to take on that challenge. As part of the strategic roads review, we have announced significant investment in new roads.

If we are serious about delivering the knowledge-driven economy and the lifelong learning agenda, it is vital that we break down the barriers between industry and higher and further education. By setting up a department of enterprise and lifelong learning, the Parliament has recognised that we need to bring those areas closer together.

In itself, however, that will not break down the barriers. If we look closely at the big company sector, we can see that it has seized the lifelong learning agenda and is starting to drive it forward. Scottish Power, for example, has spent £2 million over the past three years on promoting individual learning accounts for its employees; that should be welcomed. The company realises the benefits of investing in its work force; it realises that that is crucial if it is to remain competitive. The BP- Amoco executives to whom I spoke to last week reinforced the need to invest in human capital to

remain competitive in the marketplace, and there is no more competitive a marketplace than the oil industry.

Similarly, attitudes are changing in the higher and further education sector. The agenda of commercialising the knowledge that lies within our educational institutes is being driven forward.

The real challenge, however, is how to engage the small business sector. There have been several conferences over the past few weeks on issues such as e-commerce and lifelong learning; at one or two of them, there was no representative from the small business sector, despite the fact that that sector employs 50 per cent of the working population. If we cannot engage small business in this agenda, we will fail.

Small businesses need better and easier access to information on lifelong learning. They need to understand the benefits of investing in training for their work force and to know that that will bring financial benefits. We need to bring small businesses into the lifelong learning agenda by establishing better networks between them and higher and further education.

Most important, we need fewer Government initiatives. Small businesses are bewildered by the number of Government initiatives. Mr Swinney referred to the plethora of initiatives that were announced in the chancellor's pre-budget statement last week: the national high-tech venture capital fund; the network of regional venture capital funds; the new challenge for community finance; loan guarantees; the new small business service; and the joint infrastructure fund for university buildings. I would be grateful if the minister would let us know how many of those proposals will affect Scotland, and what Scotland's influence will be on those initiatives.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C711779", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 156.0, "ContributionID": 711779, "EditedText": "I agree with some of what Mr Swinney says. Clearly, how we help small businesses is an important matter. Small businesses employ 50 per cent of the working population. I believe that they are crucial to the further development of a competitive Scotland. Governments have to act as catalysts and enablers for change, rather than take a top-down approach. We need to examine closely the number of initiatives that are being introduced. From the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee's investigation, it is clear that there is scope for rationalisation in business advice and the enterprise network. That is a consistent message from the customers. I hope that we will make some clear recommendations on that issue. E-commerce—I know that this impinges on this afternoon's debate—is a huge challenge for Scottish industry. We are lagging behind other countries and we must ensure that we catch up. This year, a benchmarking study by Scottish Enterprise revealed that Scotland is seventh out of the 10 countries surveyed. We have low levels of connectivity. Again, it is the small business sector that is lagging behind—we need to tackle that. Forty per cent of Canadian companies use websites, whereas only 22 per cent of Scottish companies do. It is important that the Scottish Executive recognises that and drives forward the e-commerce agenda. Of course, there are areas in which Scotland is ahead. The Scottish Tourist Board's Ossian project is a classic example; it is an on-line tourism database that will give potential visitors to Scotland unparalleled information on events and accommodation, right down to the smallest bed and breakfasts, even in places such as Campbeltown and Tiree. That will bring real benefits to the rural economy and to small businesses. Those are tangible benefits of the e- commerce revolution. However, if the Executive wants to set the e- commerce agenda, it must take action. We have a short time scale. I realise that the Executive will present an e-commerce strategy to involve industry and enterprise—I hope that that will happen in the new year. Last week, we heard that IBM, Dell Computer and Wal-Mart will be committed to 100 per cent e-procurement by the end of the year. The Scottish Executive, however, aims at only 25 per cent e-procurement by 2002— it is lagging well behind. The Executive must give a commitment to emulate the objective of private business. We should set our targets higher. That would result in significant savings; above all, it would demonstrate that we will lead by example. I hope that the minister will address the issue of e- procurement. Finally, I will speak about the SNP amendment. As ever for the SNP, independence is the solution to all Scotland's problems—as modernisation is for the Labour party. The SNP seems to believe that, if it separates Scotland from the UK, the Scottish people will wake up the next morning, be seized by enterprise fever, rush out to create new businesses and discover that our financial institutions have suddenly become less risk averse. That is absolute rubbish. It is a fundamentally naive argument, which demonstrates again that the SNP's answer to every problem is the blunt instrument of independence.", "EditedTextHTML": "I agree with some of what Mr Swinney says.

Clearly, how we help small businesses is an important matter. Small businesses employ 50 per cent of the working population. I believe that they are crucial to the further development of a competitive Scotland. Governments have to act as catalysts and enablers for change, rather than take a top-down approach. We need to examine closely the number of initiatives that are being introduced.

From the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee's investigation, it is clear that there is scope for rationalisation in business advice and the enterprise network. That is a consistent message from the customers. I hope that we will make some clear recommendations on that issue.

E-commerce—I know that this impinges on this afternoon's debate—is a huge challenge for Scottish industry. We are lagging behind other countries and we must ensure that we catch up. This year, a benchmarking study by Scottish Enterprise revealed that Scotland is seventh out of the 10 countries surveyed. We have low levels of connectivity. Again, it is the small business sector that is lagging behind—we need to tackle that. Forty per cent of Canadian companies use websites, whereas only 22 per cent of Scottish companies do. It is important that the Scottish Executive recognises that and drives forward the e-commerce agenda.

Of course, there are areas in which Scotland is ahead. The Scottish Tourist Board's Ossian project is a classic example; it is an on-line tourism database that will give potential visitors to Scotland unparalleled information on events and accommodation, right down to the smallest bed and breakfasts, even in places such as Campbeltown and Tiree. That will bring real benefits to the rural economy and to small businesses. Those are tangible benefits of the e- commerce revolution.

However, if the Executive wants to set the e- commerce agenda, it must take action. We have a short time scale. I realise that the Executive will present an e-commerce strategy to involve industry and enterprise—I hope that that will happen in the new year. Last week, we heard that IBM, Dell Computer and Wal-Mart will be committed to 100 per cent e-procurement by the end of the year. The Scottish Executive, however, aims at only 25 per cent e-procurement by 2002— it is lagging well behind. The Executive must give a commitment to emulate the objective of private business. We should set our targets higher. That would result in significant savings; above all, it would demonstrate that we will lead by example. I hope that the minister will address the issue of e- procurement.

Finally, I will speak about the SNP amendment. As ever for the SNP, independence is the solution to all Scotland's problems—as modernisation is for the Labour party. The SNP seems to believe that,

if it separates Scotland from the UK, the Scottish people will wake up the next morning, be seized by enterprise fever, rush out to create new businesses and discover that our financial institutions have suddenly become less risk averse. That is absolute rubbish. It is a fundamentally naive argument, which demonstrates again that the SNP's answer to every problem is the blunt instrument of independence.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2090E83P266C711785", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAllion, Mr John", "ID": 2090, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dundee East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John McAllion", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McAllion: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 169.0, "ContributionID": 711785, "EditedText": "I am sorry—I did not realise that the time had gone so quickly. I had just got started.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry—I did not realise that the time had gone so quickly. I had just got started.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2118E157P454C711790", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Quinan, Mr Lloyd", "ID": 2118, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lloyd Quinan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Lloyd Quinan (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 182.0, "ContributionID": 711790, "EditedText": "I welcome the opportunity to debate the modernisation of the Scottish economy. Unfortunately, there was only one welcome contribution from the Labour benches—the speech by John McAllion, who seems to have some understanding of history. We have become used to hearing regurgitated statements and figures from the Labour party. As I listened to Henry McLeish, I was reminded somewhat of a speech that was given on 1 October 1963 in Scarborough, in which more or less everything that Mr McLeish said was flagged up: \"We present this document to the nation, Labour and the Scientific Revolution, because the strength, the solvency, the influence of Britain, which some still think depends upon nostalgic illusions or upon nuclear posturings—these things are going to depend in the remainder of this century to a unique extent on the speed with which we come to terms with the world of change. There is no more dangerous illusion than the comfortable doctrine that the world owes us a living.\" I quote:\"The danger, as things are, is that an unregulated privateenterprise economy in this country will promote just enough automation to create serious unemployment but not enough to create a break-through in the production barrier.\" I quote:\"The problem is this. Since technological progress left to the mechanism of private industry and private property can lead only to high profits for a few, a high rate of employment for a few, and to mass redundancies for the many, if there had never been a case for Socialism before, automation would have created it. Because only if technological progress becomes part of our national planning can that progress be directed to national ends.\" I quote:\"That this country should not be able to provide employment for boys and girls leaving school and going out into the world for the first time is an intolerable reflection on our so-called civilisation. Galbraith warned the world a few years ago that social imbalance is the inevitable consequence of the unplanned affluent society, and we are finding this imbalance in the growing number of young people and of old people who cannot find employment. That is why we need the new industries, the revitalisation of declining industries and declining areas, to provide new hope for the nation's youth.\" I quote:\"We are re-defining and we are re-stating our Socialism in terms of the scientific revolution. But that revolution cannot become a reality unless we are prepared to make far-reaching changes in economic and social attitudes which permeate our whole system of society. The Britain that is going to be forged in the white heat of this revolution will be no place for restrictive practices or for outdated methods on either side of industry.\" Those words were spoken 36 years ago at the Labour party conference. There was no mention this morning by Mr McLeish of the trade union movement. Only Mr McAllion talks about the modernisation of the Scottish economy and about the workers in that economy. \"Access to work,\" Mr McLeish says to us. What about access to work for the 374 prison officers who are about to lose their jobs courtesy of the Government's cutbacks? What has happened in the intervening 36 years, and during the three Labour Governments that have existed in that time? Why are we again discussing a keynote speech made by a socialist leader of the Labour party, who pointed out, many years ago, what needed to be done in our economy? Where in the minister's statement this morning is the planning that Harold Wilson suggested? Where is the recognition that we need macro-economic control, and that unbridled private capital must not build and run our schools, and build our bridges? There have been many questions from the Tories about the necessity for us to develop our infrastructure. Will that development come from unbridled private money? There is nothing in the statement for the working people of Scotland. Nothing.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the opportunity to debate the modernisation of the Scottish economy. Unfortunately, there was only one welcome contribution from the Labour benches—the speech by John McAllion, who seems to have some understanding of history.

We have become used to hearing regurgitated statements and figures from the Labour party. As I listened to Henry McLeish, I was reminded somewhat of a speech that was given on 1 October 1963 in Scarborough, in which more or less everything that Mr McLeish said was flagged up:

\"We present this document to the nation, Labour and the Scientific Revolution, because the strength, the solvency, the influence of Britain, which some still think depends upon nostalgic illusions or upon nuclear posturings—these things are going to depend in the remainder of this century to a unique extent on the speed with which we come to terms with the world of change.

There is no more dangerous illusion than the comfortable doctrine that the world owes us a living.\"

I quote:

\"The danger, as things are, is that an unregulated private

enterprise economy in this country will promote just enough automation to create serious unemployment but not enough to create a break-through in the production barrier.\"

I quote:

\"The problem is this. Since technological progress left to the mechanism of private industry and private property can lead only to high profits for a few, a high rate of employment for a few, and to mass redundancies for the many, if there had never been a case for Socialism before, automation would have created it. Because only if technological progress becomes part of our national planning can that progress be directed to national ends.\"

I quote:

\"That this country should not be able to provide employment for boys and girls leaving school and going out into the world for the first time is an intolerable reflection on our so-called civilisation. Galbraith warned the world a few years ago that social imbalance is the inevitable consequence of the unplanned affluent society, and we are finding this imbalance in the growing number of young people and of old people who cannot find employment. That is why we need the new industries, the revitalisation of declining industries and declining areas, to provide new hope for the nation's youth.\"

I quote:

\"We are re-defining and we are re-stating our Socialism in terms of the scientific revolution. But that revolution cannot become a reality unless we are prepared to make far-reaching changes in economic and social attitudes which permeate our whole system of society.

The Britain that is going to be forged in the white heat of this revolution will be no place for restrictive practices or for outdated methods on either side of industry.\"

Those words were spoken 36 years ago at the Labour party conference. There was no mention this morning by Mr McLeish of the trade union movement. Only Mr McAllion talks about the modernisation of the Scottish economy and about the workers in that economy. \"Access to work,\" Mr McLeish says to us. What about access to work for the 374 prison officers who are about to lose their jobs courtesy of the Government's cutbacks?

What has happened in the intervening 36 years, and during the three Labour Governments that have existed in that time? Why are we again discussing a keynote speech made by a socialist leader of the Labour party, who pointed out, many years ago, what needed to be done in our economy? Where in the minister's statement this morning is the planning that Harold Wilson suggested? Where is the recognition that we need macro-economic control, and that unbridled private capital must not build and run our schools, and build our bridges? There have been many questions from the Tories about the necessity for us to develop our infrastructure. Will that development come from unbridled private money?

There is nothing in the statement for the working people of Scotland. Nothing.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C711796", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 197.0, "ContributionID": 711796, "EditedText": "My intervention will be brief. I endorse Mr Raffan's comments. We have an incubator unit in San Jose that allows Scottish companies to become involved in America virtually overnight. Furthermore, there are similar units in Dundee, from which Cyclacel evolved.", "EditedTextHTML": "My intervention will be brief. I endorse Mr Raffan's comments. We have an incubator unit in San Jose that allows Scottish companies to become involved in America virtually overnight. Furthermore, there are similar units in Dundee, from which Cyclacel evolved.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C711797", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 199.0, "ContributionID": 711797, "EditedText": "Absolutely. I am not saying that there are no incubator units here—there are, but they are not of the business kind. I think that we should, therefore, examine particularly closely the London Business School model. As the minister recently said, Scotland is third in the world for research citations, but our research and development level is half that of the United Kingdom. There is a gap between ideas and commercial exploitation—turning ideas into small, growing businesses. As my party's social inclusion spokesman, I welcome the chancellor's initiatives to help businesses to take root in poorer areas. However, it is crucial to realise that the initiative will come to nought if there is no infrastructure support. We spend far less than other countries on transport— 50 per cent less than Germany and 35 per cent less than France. Many of our poorer areas suffer from inadequate road communications. Clackmannanshire is a well-known example. Despite its central location, it has no good links to the motorway network. In communications terms, it is cut off and isolated. We urgently need the Clackmannanshire bridge—as it has now become known—the completion of the A907 and the restoration of the local rail network. For the SMART village and the social inclusion project in Alloa to be really successful, communication links must be improved. The Government deserves credit for current macro-economic stability and for the stability in our public finances. It is right for the chancellor now to turn his attention to micro-economic reforms and initiatives. I hope that the Scottish Executive will take those initiatives further in an innovative and imaginative way. The chancellor willing, they will be backed up by infrastructure investment. We need a holistic, cross-cutting approach all the more because we are, as Mr Lyon said, geographically disadvantaged. We are situated on the periphery of Europe, the centre of gravity of which continues to move eastwards.", "EditedTextHTML": "Absolutely. I am not saying that there are no incubator units here—there are, but they are not of the business kind. I think that we should, therefore, examine particularly closely the London Business School model. As the minister

recently said, Scotland is third in the world for research citations, but our research and development level is half that of the United Kingdom. There is a gap between ideas and commercial exploitation—turning ideas into small, growing businesses.

As my party's social inclusion spokesman, I welcome the chancellor's initiatives to help businesses to take root in poorer areas. However, it is crucial to realise that the initiative will come to nought if there is no infrastructure support. We spend far less than other countries on transport— 50 per cent less than Germany and 35 per cent less than France. Many of our poorer areas suffer from inadequate road communications. Clackmannanshire is a well-known example. Despite its central location, it has no good links to the motorway network. In communications terms, it is cut off and isolated. We urgently need the Clackmannanshire bridge—as it has now become known—the completion of the A907 and the restoration of the local rail network. For the SMART village and the social inclusion project in Alloa to be really successful, communication links must be improved.

The Government deserves credit for current macro-economic stability and for the stability in our public finances. It is right for the chancellor now to turn his attention to micro-economic reforms and initiatives. I hope that the Scottish Executive will take those initiatives further in an innovative and imaginative way. The chancellor willing, they will be backed up by infrastructure investment. We need a holistic, cross-cutting approach all the more because we are, as Mr Lyon said, geographically disadvantaged. We are situated on the periphery of Europe, the centre of gravity of which continues to move eastwards.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C711801", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 208.0, "ContributionID": 711801, "EditedText": "I am grateful to the member for giving way, given that he has only a short time. Will the member comment on the fact that that manufacturing figure is half that of the trend growth in the economy and on the fact that the manufacturing sector is falling behind?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful to the member for giving way, given that he has only a short time. Will the member comment on the fact that that manufacturing figure is half that of the trend growth in the economy and on the fact that the manufacturing sector is falling behind?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1821E295P538C711806", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Mrs Margaret", "ID": 1821, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Moray" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Margaret Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 219.0, "ContributionID": 711806, "EditedText": "In the context of earlier points on competition law, does Brian Adam agree that one of the difficulties in exporting some of the skills gained in the oil and gas industry is the unfair competition from countries such as Korea, in fabrication for example, and that that issue should be examined by the Scottish Executive?", "EditedTextHTML": "In the context of earlier points on competition law, does Brian Adam agree that one of the difficulties in exporting some of the skills gained in the oil and gas industry is the unfair competition from countries such as Korea, in fabrication for example, and that that issue should be examined by the Scottish Executive?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2223E203P342C711813", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scott, Tavish", "ID": 2223, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Shetland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tavish Scott", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tavish Scott (Shetland) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 234.0, "ContributionID": 711813, "EditedText": "I am grateful for that advice, Presiding Officer. I want to pick up on a couple of points on transport that Murray Tosh, Cathy Jamieson and Kenny Gibson made earlier. On modernisation— that sometimes despised word—it is important to recognise that public moneys, carefully targeted on a variety of modes of public transport, are an important investment in the future of the Scottish economy. Investment in transport unblocks the arteries of our economy and is especially needed. We need a modern, efficient and affordable transport system to move both people and goods. We must be prepared to address those needs and target our spending to meet them. Professor McKinnon of Heriot-Watt University argued, at a transport conference in Glasgow a couple of weeks ago, that average transport costs comprise 2 to 3 per cent of Scottish companies' sales revenues. He pointed to the importance of minimising the impact of congestion to improve economic output by rescheduling deliveries. He quoted the figure of \"15% of lorry traffic between 8pm and 6am\"and mentioned the need to use\"Alternative modes and routes – north sea ro-ro links and railfreight services\". Other members mentioned those matters earlier.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful for that advice, Presiding Officer.

I want to pick up on a couple of points on transport that Murray Tosh, Cathy Jamieson and Kenny Gibson made earlier. On modernisation— that sometimes despised word—it is important to recognise that public moneys, carefully targeted on a variety of modes of public transport, are an important investment in the future of the Scottish economy. Investment in transport unblocks the arteries of our economy and is especially needed. We need a modern, efficient and affordable transport system to move both people and goods. We must be prepared to address those needs and target our spending to meet them.

Professor McKinnon of Heriot-Watt University argued, at a transport conference in Glasgow a couple of weeks ago, that average transport costs comprise 2 to 3 per cent of Scottish companies' sales revenues. He pointed to the importance of minimising the impact of congestion to improve economic output by rescheduling deliveries. He quoted the figure of

\"15% of lorry traffic between 8pm and 6am\"

and mentioned the need to use

\"Alternative modes and routes – north sea ro-ro links and railfreight services\".

Other members mentioned those matters earlier.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2223E203P342C711816", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scott, Tavish", "ID": 2223, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Shetland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tavish Scott", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tavish Scott: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 240.0, "ContributionID": 711816, "EditedText": "I will come back to Murray. We have had this discussion before, and those issues have been considerably debated. I have a minute and a half and I want to make two or three other points. The Highlands and Islands and the Borders lack the basic transport infrastructure necessary for their economies. Airports could modernise our economy, and investment in them, to which we do not currently pay enough attention, is particularly important. Tourists can be brought in and businesses can export through them. An extension to the runway of Sumburgh airport in Shetland, for example, would allow airlines to make better decisions. If instrument landing systems—ILS—were introduced at Kirkwall airport, that would improve the service to the Orkney tourism industry. At Inverness, passenger service charges handicap the development of the local economy. That point was made by the local chamber of commerce. Representatives of a local aviation company at Wick wrote to me recently. They claim to be handicapped by the restriction on hours of operation. Investments in the examples that I have mentioned would improve the economies in those areas. We need to invest in air transport for the future. The Scottish Executive must reject the short-term lead of Westminster, with its ill-considered plans to sell off the National Air Traffic Services, and instead show what can be done by wise, targeted investment in our public transport systems, especially in air transport.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will come back to Murray. We have had this discussion before, and those issues have been considerably debated. I have a minute and a half and I want to make two or three other points.

The Highlands and Islands and the Borders lack the basic transport infrastructure necessary for their economies. Airports could modernise our economy, and investment in them, to which we do not currently pay enough attention, is particularly important. Tourists can be brought in and businesses can export through them.

An extension to the runway of Sumburgh airport in Shetland, for example, would allow airlines to make better decisions. If instrument landing systems—ILS—were introduced at Kirkwall airport, that would improve the service to the Orkney tourism industry. At Inverness, passenger service charges handicap the development of the local economy. That point was made by the local chamber of commerce. Representatives of a local aviation company at Wick wrote to me recently. They claim to be handicapped by the restriction on hours of operation. Investments in the examples that I have mentioned would improve the economies in those areas.

We need to invest in air transport for the future. The Scottish Executive must reject the short-term lead of Westminster, with its ill-considered plans to sell off the National Air Traffic Services, and instead show what can be done by wise, targeted investment in our public transport systems, especially in air transport.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2108E50P256C711822", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macintosh, Ken", "ID": 2108, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Eastwood" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ken Macintosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Kenneth Macintosh (Eastwood) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 252.0, "ContributionID": 711822, "EditedText": "Further to that point of order. The back benchers have, I think, contributed less than 45 minutes to today's debate. This is a plea to ministers to cut back their speeches. Our rules are not quite working properly at the moment, and I think that we should examine them again to ensure that back benchers make the contributions that they want to make.", "EditedTextHTML": "Further to that point of order. The back benchers have, I think, contributed less than 45 minutes to today's debate. This is a plea to ministers to cut back their speeches. Our rules are not quite working properly at the moment, and I think that we should examine them again to ensure that back benchers make the contributions that they want to make.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C711825", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 258.0, "ContributionID": 711825, "EditedText": "I apologise, Mr Sheridan. If your name had been showing on my screen, I certainly would have called you in the course of the debate.", "EditedTextHTML": "I apologise, Mr Sheridan. If your name had been showing on my screen, I certainly would have called you in the course of the debate.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5607676+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C711827", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 262.0, "ContributionID": 711827, "EditedText": "I now call Mr Davidson to wind up for the Conservatives. I will try to give you your full five minutes.", "EditedTextHTML": "I now call Mr Davidson to wind up for the Conservatives. I will try to give you your full five minutes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5607676+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C711833", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 275.0, "ContributionID": 711833, "EditedText": "That speech was a minute and a half over time. We have already had criticisms of back benchers' speaking rights being affected by overruns at the opening of debates. We should be concerned about overruns at the end as well. Mr Wilson, you have six minutes.", "EditedTextHTML": "That speech was a minute and a half over time. We have already had criticisms of back benchers' speaking rights being affected by overruns at the opening of debates. We should be concerned about overruns at the end as well.

Mr Wilson, you have six minutes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5607676+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C711834", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 278.0, "ContributionID": 711834, "EditedText": "Thank you, Presiding Officer. This has been yet another tautological debate led by the Executive, with absolutely nothing in terms of substance or ideas. The minister's speech lasted 18 minutes, yet there were no specific examples of anything that the Government is going to do. I welcome—", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you, Presiding Officer. This has been yet another tautological debate led by the Executive, with absolutely nothing in terms of substance or ideas. The minister's speech lasted 18 minutes, yet there were no specific examples of anything that the Government is going to do.

I welcome—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5607676+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C711835", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 280.0, "ContributionID": 711835, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5607676+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C711836", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 282.0, "ContributionID": 711836, "EditedText": "I will move into my speech. The minister can join me in a second. I welcome the—", "EditedTextHTML": "I will move into my speech. The minister can join me in a second.

I welcome the—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5607676+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C711839", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 288.0, "ContributionID": 711839, "EditedText": "In order to facilitate a decent debate in the Parliament, I offer Andrew Wilson the same opportunity as I offered John Swinney. Can he give us some SNP policies on how to take the Scottish economy forward?", "EditedTextHTML": "In order to facilitate a decent debate in the Parliament, I offer Andrew Wilson the same opportunity as I offered John Swinney. Can he give us some SNP policies on how to take the Scottish economy forward?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5607676+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C711846", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Brian Monteith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 303.0, "ContributionID": 711846, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5607676+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C711849", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 309.0, "ContributionID": 711849, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5607676+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C711852", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 315.0, "ContributionID": 711852, "EditedText": "Thank you very much. Is the minister aware of Scottish Enterprise's projection that ports in the south-east of England that are critical to our economic competitiveness will face 32 per cent undercapacity by about 2010? Is the Executive prepared to consider a strategy for developing Scotland's oceanic links with the European Community?", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you very much. Is the minister aware of Scottish Enterprise's projection that ports in the south-east of England that are critical to our economic competitiveness will face 32 per cent undercapacity by about 2010? Is the Executive prepared to consider a strategy for developing Scotland's oceanic links with the European Community?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5607676+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2154E194P299C711853", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stephen, Nicol", "ID": 2154, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Nicol Stephen", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicol Stephen: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 317.0, "ContributionID": 711853, "EditedText": "I will cover the transport issue later. I apologise to Brian Monteith; I thought that I was giving way to him rather than to Murray Tosh. E-commerce is a key element in the changes that face the global economy over the next few years. The Scottish Executive has strongly supported e-commerce and Scottish Enterprise has a major e-commerce strategy. A great deal was done just last month: a directory of all the companies that do business on-line was published and local LEC-based advisers are assisting companies to plan for new e-commerce systems. We are starting to see an increasing uptake of internet use among Scottish companies, of which nearly 60 per cent use the internet while 7 per cent sell on-line. But—and it is an important and big but—in the United States, the figures are still much higher. That problem is driven, at least in part, by low computer and internet usage by Scottish consumers. A special problem is low usage by small and medium companies. We have to do more on that. We also have to do more on commercialisation of research at our universities and colleges. Cyclacel is a great example, but we must never be complacent and must give continuing support. I will mention briefly Annabel Goldie's remarks, to which my reaction could be summed up by the simple statement, \"Don't believe what they say, believe what they did.\" Annabel had the chance to do all the things that she spoke about, over many years. Actions are more powerful than words.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will cover the transport issue later. I apologise to Brian Monteith; I thought that I was giving way to him rather than to Murray Tosh.

E-commerce is a key element in the changes that face the global economy over the next few years. The Scottish Executive has strongly supported e-commerce and Scottish Enterprise has a major e-commerce strategy. A great deal was done just last month: a directory of all the companies that do business on-line was published and local LEC-based advisers are assisting companies to plan for new e-commerce systems.

We are starting to see an increasing uptake of internet use among Scottish companies, of which nearly 60 per cent use the internet while 7 per cent sell on-line. But—and it is an important and big but—in the United States, the figures are still much higher. That problem is driven, at least in part, by low computer and internet usage by Scottish consumers. A special problem is low usage by small and medium companies. We have to do more on that. We also have to do more on commercialisation of research at our universities and colleges. Cyclacel is a great example, but we must never be complacent and must give continuing support.

I will mention briefly Annabel Goldie's remarks, to which my reaction could be summed up by the simple statement, \"Don't believe what they say, believe what they did.\" Annabel had the chance to do all the things that she spoke about, over many years. Actions are more powerful than words.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5607676+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C711854", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Monteith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 319.0, "ContributionID": 711854, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5607676+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2154E194P299C711857", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stephen, Nicol", "ID": 2154, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Nicol Stephen", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicol Stephen: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 325.0, "ContributionID": 711857, "EditedText": "Of course they will. That was the subject of my next paragraph. However, Gordon Brown's speech contained a lot of detail. I undertake to write to Mr Swinney, Mr Lyon and Annabel Goldie to bring them up to date with those details. Nicola Sturgeon spoke about the shipbuilding industry. On Kvaerner Govan, I can assure all members that the Scottish Executive is fully involved in securing the long-term future of the yard. Efforts are being made to conclude negotiations as soon as possible. I expect that an announcement will be made before the end of this month.", "EditedTextHTML": "Of course they will. That was the subject of my next paragraph. However, Gordon Brown's speech contained a lot of detail. I undertake to write to Mr Swinney, Mr Lyon and Annabel Goldie to bring them up to date with those details.

Nicola Sturgeon spoke about the shipbuilding industry. On Kvaerner Govan, I can assure all members that the Scottish Executive is fully involved in securing the long-term future of the yard. Efforts are being made to conclude negotiations as soon as possible. I expect that an announcement will be made before the end of this month.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5607676+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711864", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27071, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 335.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 335.0, "ID": 27071, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 340.0, "ContributionID": 711864, "EditedText": "My screen indicates that Marilyn Livingstone wants to speak on this. Is that an error?", "EditedTextHTML": "My screen indicates that Marilyn Livingstone wants to speak on this. Is that an error?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5763926+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711867", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27071, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 335.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 335.0, "ID": 27071, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 346.0, "ContributionID": 711867, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5763926+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711874", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Standards Committee", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27072, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 347.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 347.0, "ID": 27072, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 358.0, "ContributionID": 711874, "EditedText": "On resuming—", "EditedTextHTML": "On resuming—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5763926+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2056E57P84C711878", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27073, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 359.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27074, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 360.0, "QuestionHeading": "A8000", "QuestionHeadingID": 27076, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 368.0, "DisplayOrder": 368.0, "ID": 27076, "ParentID": 27074 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James", "ID": 2056, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "James Douglas-Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "2. Lord James Douglas-Hamilton (Lothians) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 369.0, "ContributionID": 711878, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive how the proposed upgrading of the A8000 will be funded, what the time scale for the upgrading is likely to be and whether the A8000 will be a trunk road after upgrading. (S1O-622) The Minister for Transport and the Environment (Sarah Boyack): The A8000 is a local road and responsibility for its upgrading therefore rests with the City of Edinburgh Council. The Executive has no plans to expand the trunk road network.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive how the proposed upgrading of the A8000 will be funded, what the time scale for the upgrading is likely to be and whether the A8000 will be a trunk road after upgrading. (S1O-622) The Minister for Transport and the Environment (Sarah Boyack): The A8000 is a local road and responsibility for its upgrading therefore rests with the City of Edinburgh Council. The Executive has no plans to expand the trunk road network.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5763926+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2056E57P84C711879", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27073, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 359.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27074, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 360.0, "QuestionHeading": "A8000", "QuestionHeadingID": 27076, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 368.0, "DisplayOrder": 368.0, "ID": 27076, "ParentID": 27074 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James", "ID": 2056, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "James Douglas-Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Lord James Douglas-Hamilton: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 371.0, "ContributionID": 711879, "EditedText": "Is the minister aware that the traffic congestion in the vicinity of the Forth road bridge is among the most intense in Scotland? Does she accept that there is widespread support for the upgrading among local motorists and from the City of Edinburgh Council? Will she also accept that it is essential that the Executive makes available resources to ensure that the matter goes ahead speedily?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is the minister aware that the traffic congestion in the vicinity of the Forth road bridge is among the most intense in Scotland? Does she accept that there is

widespread support for the upgrading among local motorists and from the City of Edinburgh Council? Will she also accept that it is essential that the Executive makes available resources to ensure that the matter goes ahead speedily?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2223E203P342C711882", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27073, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 359.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27074, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 360.0, "QuestionHeading": "North of Scotland Water Authority", "QuestionHeadingID": 27077, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 375.0, "DisplayOrder": 375.0, "ID": 27077, "ParentID": 27074 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scott, Tavish", "ID": 2223, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Shetland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tavish Scott", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tavish Scott: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 378.0, "ContributionID": 711882, "EditedText": "Will the minister investigate the authority's reported intention to levy the highest water charges in Scotland yet also reward its senior staff with performance bonuses? Does not the current situation illustrate the need for a root- and-branch reform of that quango, so that it becomes more responsive to customer needs?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister investigate the authority's reported intention to levy the highest water charges in Scotland yet also reward its senior staff with performance bonuses? Does not the current situation illustrate the need for a root- and-branch reform of that quango, so that it becomes more responsive to customer needs?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C711890", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27073, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 359.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27074, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 360.0, "QuestionHeading": "Caledonian MacBrayne", "QuestionHeadingID": 27078, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 382.0, "DisplayOrder": 382.0, "ID": 27078, "ParentID": 27074 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 395.0, "ContributionID": 711890, "EditedText": "Can the minister tell Parliament—", "EditedTextHTML": "Can the minister tell Parliament—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711891", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27073, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 359.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27074, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 360.0, "QuestionHeading": "Caledonian MacBrayne", "QuestionHeadingID": 27078, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 382.0, "DisplayOrder": 382.0, "ID": 27078, "ParentID": 27074 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 397.0, "ContributionID": 711891, "EditedText": "Order. I call Pauline McNeill.", "EditedTextHTML": "Order. I call Pauline McNeill.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2033E106P139C711898", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27073, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 359.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27074, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 360.0, "QuestionHeading": "Immigration and Asylum", "QuestionHeadingID": 27080, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 406.0, "DisplayOrder": 406.0, "ID": 27080, "ParentID": 27074 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gray, Iain", "ID": 2033, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Pentlands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Iain Gray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Iain Gray: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 413.0, "ContributionID": 711898, "EditedText": "As members will know from previous discussions, immigration and asylum are reserved matters, over which we have no legislative competence. We are determined to ensure that Scotland plays its part in fair, effective and fast support for asylum seekers. That is why I have announced today that we will review the operation of these measures some 18 months from their inception. It is important that the Executive and the Parliament concentrate on what it can do rather than on what it cannot.", "EditedTextHTML": "As members will know from previous discussions, immigration and asylum are reserved matters, over which we have no legislative competence. We are determined to ensure that Scotland plays its part in fair, effective and fast support for asylum seekers. That is why I have announced today that we will review the operation of these measures some 18 months from their inception. It is important that the Executive and the Parliament concentrate on what it can do rather than on what it cannot.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2140E187P335C711902", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27073, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 359.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27074, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 360.0, "QuestionHeading": "Police Funding", "QuestionHeadingID": 27081, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 419.0, "DisplayOrder": 419.0, "ID": 27081, "ParentID": 27074 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Rumbles, Mike", "ID": 2140, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Rumbles", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Rumbles: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 422.0, "ContributionID": 711902, "EditedText": "Will the Executive ensure that the review takes account of the fact that the criteria for funding are out of date and fail to create a level playing field? For example, the criteria penalise the people of the north-east, who have the second lowest number of police officers and the second lowest per capita expenditure of all Scottish police services, despite the fact that Grampian police have to deal with the second highest number of crimes per head of population. Will he ensure that that unfair funding mechanism is updated as soon as possible in the new year?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the Executive ensure that the review takes account of the fact that the criteria for funding are out of date and fail to create a level playing field? For example, the criteria penalise the people of the north-east, who have the second lowest number of police officers and the second lowest per capita expenditure of all Scottish police services, despite the fact that Grampian police have to deal with the second highest number of crimes per head of population. Will he ensure that that unfair funding mechanism is updated as soon as possible in the new year?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C711905", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27073, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 359.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27074, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 360.0, "QuestionHeading": "Scottish Football Association", "QuestionHeadingID": 27082, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 426.0, "DisplayOrder": 426.0, "ID": 27082, "ParentID": 27074 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Monteith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 429.0, "ContributionID": 711905, "EditedText": "I welcome and concur with the minister's sentiments. I point out that the Scottish women's football team is currently leading group 6 of the Union of European Football Association's women's championship. Applause. Will the minister say what measures the Scottish Executive is taking to promote women's football in Scotland?", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome and concur with the minister's sentiments. I point out that the Scottish women's football team is currently leading group 6 of the Union of European Football Association's women's championship. [Applause.] Will the minister say what measures the Scottish Executive is taking to promote women's football in Scotland?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C711907", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27073, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 359.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27074, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 360.0, "QuestionHeading": "Acute Services Review", "QuestionHeadingID": 27083, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 433.0, "DisplayOrder": 433.0, "ID": 27083, "ParentID": 27074 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "10. Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 434.0, "ContributionID": 711907, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether the recommendations of the acute services review will be submitted to the Scottish Parliament for approval. (S1O-659) The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): The acute services review was published in June 1998 and is already being implemented.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether the recommendations of the acute services review will be submitted to the Scottish Parliament for approval. (S1O-659) The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): The acute services review was published in June 1998 and is already being implemented.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711912", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27073, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 359.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27074, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 360.0, "QuestionHeading": "Criminal Injuries Compensation Authority", "QuestionHeadingID": 27084, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 440.0, "DisplayOrder": 440.0, "ID": 27084, "ParentID": 27074 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Lord Advocate", "SpeakerName": "Andrew Hardie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Lord Advocate: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 445.0, "ContributionID": 711912, "EditedText": "I do not think that any avoidable delay is acceptable, but some delays are inevitable. For example, it may be necessary to delay determining a case until the final medical condition of the victim is known and the board is able to decide the appropriate compensation.", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not think that any avoidable delay is acceptable, but some delays are inevitable. For example, it may be necessary to delay determining a case until the final medical condition of the victim is known and the board is able to decide the appropriate compensation.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1876E194P490C711913", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27073, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 359.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27074, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 360.0, "QuestionHeading": "Criminal Injuries Compensation Authority", "QuestionHeadingID": 27084, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 440.0, "DisplayOrder": 440.0, "ID": 27084, "ParentID": 27074 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Marwick, Tricia", "ID": 1876, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tricia Marwick", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tricia Marwick: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 447.0, "ContributionID": 711913, "EditedText": "Is the Lord Advocate aware that a client of Charles Wood & Son in Kirkcaldy has been waiting since May 1996 for a hearing day? Does he consider that three and a half years is acceptable, and will he now make urgent representations on behalf of Scottish victims?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is the Lord Advocate aware that a client of Charles Wood & Son in Kirkcaldy has been waiting since May 1996 for a hearing day? Does he consider that three and a half years is acceptable, and will he now make urgent representations on behalf of Scottish victims?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C711917", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27073, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 359.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27074, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 360.0, "QuestionHeading": "Juvenile Offenders", "QuestionHeadingID": 27085, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 451.0, "DisplayOrder": 451.0, "ID": 27085, "ParentID": 27074 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 456.0, "ContributionID": 711917, "EditedText": "I cannot pretend to be familiar with the detail of this offence but I have faith that the courts will consider such matters in a balanced way. There are provisions under the Prisoners and Criminal Proceedings (Scotland) Act 1993 for the Crown authorities to appeal if they are dissatisfied with the sentence. I understand that there have been representations—from Mr Gallie, among others—that that power should be used. These matters are under consideration but I must state clearly that I am not prejudging what the decision might be.", "EditedTextHTML": "I cannot pretend to be familiar with the detail of this offence but I have faith that the courts will consider such matters in a balanced way.

There are provisions under the Prisoners and Criminal Proceedings (Scotland) Act 1993 for the Crown authorities to appeal if they are dissatisfied with the sentence. I understand that there have been representations—from Mr Gallie, among others—that that power should be used. These matters are under consideration but I must state clearly that I am not prejudging what the decision might be.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711920", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27073, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 359.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27074, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 360.0, "QuestionHeading": "Police Budgets", "QuestionHeadingID": 27086, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 458.0, "DisplayOrder": 458.0, "ID": 27086, "ParentID": 27074 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 463.0, "ContributionID": 711920, "EditedText": "We cannot have a speech in support of a question.", "EditedTextHTML": "We cannot have a speech in support of a question.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C711922", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27073, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 359.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27074, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 360.0, "QuestionHeading": "Fife Health Board", "QuestionHeadingID": 27087, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 467.0, "DisplayOrder": 467.0, "ID": 27087, "ParentID": 27074 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "15. Mr Keith Raffan (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 468.0, "ContributionID": 711922, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will make a statement on the provision of acute services by Fife Health Board. (S1O-638) The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): No. It is the responsibility of Fife Health Board to plan the provision of acute services in Fife and to do so in consultation with local representatives and with the local population.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will make a statement on the provision of acute services by Fife Health Board. (S1O-638) The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): No. It is the responsibility of Fife Health Board to plan the provision of acute services in Fife and to do so in consultation with local representatives and with the local population.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C711923", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27073, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 359.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27074, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 360.0, "QuestionHeading": "Fife Health Board", "QuestionHeadingID": 27087, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 467.0, "DisplayOrder": 467.0, "ID": 27087, "ParentID": 27074 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 470.0, "ContributionID": 711923, "EditedText": "Does the minister agree that, during the forthcoming formal consultation period, it will be important that the clinician's views are clearly heard? Will she give her views on the proposal for a single district general hospital in Fife, as is advocated by the Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the minister agree that, during the forthcoming formal consultation period, it will be important that the clinician's views are clearly heard? Will she give her views on the proposal for a single district general hospital in Fife, as is advocated by the Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2207E94P262C711928", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27073, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 359.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27074, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 360.0, "QuestionHeading": "Rail Network (Coal Transportation)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27089, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 481.0, "DisplayOrder": 481.0, "ID": 27089, "ParentID": 27074 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Barrie, Scott", "ID": 2207, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dunfermline West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Scott Barrie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "18. Scott Barrie (Dunfermline West) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 482.0, "ContributionID": 711928, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether there have been any discussions with English Welsh and Scottish Railway to increase its capacity to transport Scottish coal on the national rail network. (S1O-642) The Minister for Transport and the Environment (Sarah Boyack): The matter is the subject of a formal complaint made by the coal industry to the Office of the Rail Regulator on the basis of the possible abuse of a dominant position by English Welsh and Scottish Railway. The outcome of the rail regulator's investigation is awaited.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether there have been any discussions with English Welsh and Scottish Railway to increase its capacity to transport Scottish coal on the national rail network. (S1O-642) The Minister for Transport and the Environment (Sarah Boyack): The matter is the subject of a formal complaint made by the coal industry to the Office of the Rail Regulator on the basis of the possible abuse of a dominant position by English Welsh and Scottish Railway. The outcome of the rail regulator's investigation is awaited.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2207E94P262C711929", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27073, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 359.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27074, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 360.0, "QuestionHeading": "Rail Network (Coal Transportation)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27089, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 481.0, "DisplayOrder": 481.0, "ID": 27089, "ParentID": 27074 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Barrie, Scott", "ID": 2207, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dunfermline West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Scott Barrie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Scott Barrie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 484.0, "ContributionID": 711929, "EditedText": "I thank the minister for that information, of which I was unaware. Will she agree that, if EWS is unable adequately to transport indigenous coal, a serious threat exists to what is left of the Scottish coal industry?", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the minister for that information, of which I was unaware. Will she agree that, if EWS is unable adequately to transport indigenous coal, a serious threat exists to what is left of the Scottish coal industry?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C711933", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27073, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 359.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27074, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 360.0, "QuestionHeading": "Genetically Modified Organisms", "QuestionHeadingID": 27090, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 488.0, "DisplayOrder": 488.0, "ID": 27090, "ParentID": 27074 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ross Finnie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 493.0, "ContributionID": 711933, "EditedText": "The current separation distances are based on internationally agreed distances and are designed to deliver seed purity of 99.5 per cent. The separation distances have been determined through practical field experience, but we accept that there is evidence now and again to suggest that they might be altered. Buffer zones are kept under constant review by ACRE, which takes into account any new research.", "EditedTextHTML": "The current separation distances are based on internationally agreed distances and are designed to deliver seed purity of 99.5 per cent. The separation distances have been determined through practical field experience, but we accept that there is evidence now and again to suggest that they might be altered. Buffer zones are kept under constant review by ACRE, which takes into account any new research.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1990E181P340C711937", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27073, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 359.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27074, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 360.0, "QuestionHeading": "Trading Standards Officers", "QuestionHeadingID": 27092, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 502.0, "DisplayOrder": 502.0, "ID": 27092, "ParentID": 27074 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robson, Euan", "ID": 1990, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Roxburgh and Berwickshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Euan Robson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "21. Euan Robson (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 503.0, "ContributionID": 711937, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has to support and strengthen the work of trading standards officers in Scotland's local authorities. (S1O-660) The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning (Nicol Stephen): Responsibility for the consumer protection measures implemented by the trading standards service in Great Britain rests with the UK Government, which in July set out a strategy for the service's future in the consumer white paper \"Modern Markets: Confident Consumers\". The Scottish Executive is working with the Department of Trade and Industry on the implementation of the proposals set out in the white paper.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has to support and strengthen the work of trading standards officers in Scotland's local authorities. (S1O-660) The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning (Nicol Stephen): Responsibility for the consumer protection measures implemented by the trading standards service in Great Britain rests with the UK Government, which in July set out a strategy for the service's future in the consumer white paper \"Modern Markets: Confident Consumers\". The Scottish Executive is working with the Department of Trade and Industry on the implementation of the proposals set out in the white paper.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1990E181P340C711938", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27073, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 359.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27074, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 360.0, "QuestionHeading": "Trading Standards Officers", "QuestionHeadingID": 27092, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 502.0, "DisplayOrder": 502.0, "ID": 27092, "ParentID": 27074 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robson, Euan", "ID": 1990, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Roxburgh and Berwickshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Euan Robson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Euan Robson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 505.0, "ContributionID": 711938, "EditedText": "Is the minister aware that, in Scotland, there are now fewer than 190 trading standards officers, enforcing more than 1,000 acts of Parliament? Will he encourage local authorities to take on more trainee TSOs, as there are apparently only 20 at present?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is the minister aware that, in Scotland, there are now fewer than 190 trading standards officers, enforcing more than 1,000 acts of Parliament? Will he encourage local authorities to take on more trainee TSOs, as there are apparently only 20 at present?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1973E119P326C711949", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27094, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 518.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27095, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 519.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meeting)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27096, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 520.0, "DisplayOrder": 520.0, "ID": 27096, "ParentID": 27095 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gorrie, Donald", "ID": 1973, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Donald Gorrie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Donald Gorrie (Central Scotland) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 531.0, "ContributionID": 711949, "EditedText": "Will the First Minister ensure that his staff improve the quality of the presentation of the information on the Executive website? I am told by those who understand such matters that, after a good start early in the summer, the timing and the accuracy of the material on the website—", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the First Minister ensure that his staff improve the quality of the presentation of the information on the Executive website? I am told by those who understand such matters that, after a good start early in the summer, the timing and the accuracy of the material on the website—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711952", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27094, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 518.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27095, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 519.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meeting)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27096, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 520.0, "DisplayOrder": 520.0, "ID": 27096, "ParentID": 27095 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 537.0, "ContributionID": 711952, "EditedText": "If it is too tangential, I shall rule it out of order. Let us hear it.", "EditedTextHTML": "If it is too tangential, I shall rule it out of order. Let us hear it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C711955", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27094, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 518.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27095, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 519.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meeting)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27096, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 520.0, "DisplayOrder": 520.0, "ID": 27096, "ParentID": 27095 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 543.0, "ContributionID": 711955, "EditedText": "Can I express the hope that it is not too much in order? I read in one newspaper that fear of violence in Scotland was one of the reasons for the reform of the legislation on the prevention of terrorism. I am glad to say that, on the basis of the record, it is not a matter that is uppermost in my mind. The reason for the reform of the legislation is that the framework is outdated. We need a comprehensive law within which the security services can operate with due and proper regard to both civil liberties and the needs of the state. That is what the Westminster Government intends to put on the statute book.", "EditedTextHTML": "Can I express the hope that it is not too much in order?

I read in one newspaper that fear of violence in Scotland was one of the reasons for the reform of the legislation on the prevention of terrorism. I am glad to say that, on the basis of the record, it is not a matter that is uppermost in my mind. The reason for the reform of the legislation is that the framework is outdated. We need a comprehensive law within which the security services can operate with due and proper regard to both civil liberties and the needs of the state. That is what the Westminster Government intends to put on the statute book.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C711956", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27094, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 518.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27095, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 519.0, "QuestionHeading": "Prime Minister (Meeting)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27097, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 545.0, "DisplayOrder": 545.0, "ID": 27097, "ParentID": 27095 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "2. David McLetchie (Lothians) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 546.0, "ContributionID": 711956, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive when the First Minister last met the Prime Minister and what subjects they discussed. (S1O-657) The First Minister (Donald Dewar): That is not quite so recent in my memory. I last met the Prime Minister on 14 October and I am afraid that we discussed matters of mutual concern.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive when the First Minister last met the Prime Minister and what subjects they discussed. (S1O-657) The First Minister (Donald Dewar): That is not quite so recent in my memory. I last met the Prime Minister on 14 October and I am afraid that we discussed matters of mutual concern.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C711957", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27094, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 518.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27095, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 519.0, "QuestionHeading": "Prime Minister (Meeting)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27097, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 545.0, "DisplayOrder": 545.0, "ID": 27097, "ParentID": 27095 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 548.0, "ContributionID": 711957, "EditedText": "I wonder whether those matters of mutual concern embraced the rising tide of crime across the United Kingdom and the pathetic response to it. Is the First Minister aware that we have nearly 500 fewer police officers on the beat in Scotland than we should have? Is he further aware that prison officers are being laid off and prisons are being closed? Is that what he considers to be joined-up thinking? When will his Executive, which likes to pull out millions for announcements in the chamber to be spent on this, that and the next pet project, ensure that our criminal justice system is properly funded?", "EditedTextHTML": "I wonder whether those matters of mutual concern embraced the rising tide of crime across the United Kingdom and the pathetic response to it. Is the First Minister aware that we have nearly 500 fewer police officers on the beat in Scotland than we should have? Is he further aware that prison officers are being laid off and prisons are being closed? Is that what he considers to be joined-up thinking? When will his Executive, which likes to pull out millions for announcements in the chamber to be spent on this, that and the next pet project, ensure that our criminal justice system is properly funded?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711960", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27094, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 518.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27095, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 519.0, "QuestionHeading": "Prime Minister (Meeting)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27097, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 545.0, "DisplayOrder": 545.0, "ID": 27097, "ParentID": 27095 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 554.0, "ContributionID": 711960, "EditedText": "Please ask your question, Mr McLetchie.", "EditedTextHTML": "Please ask your question, Mr McLetchie.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C711966", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27094, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 518.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27095, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 519.0, "QuestionHeading": "Prime Minister (Meeting)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27097, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 545.0, "DisplayOrder": 545.0, "ID": 27097, "ParentID": 27095 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan (Glasgow) (SSP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 566.0, "ContributionID": 711966, "EditedText": "In the course of the First Minister's meeting with the Prime Minister, did the Prime Minister indicate his intention to introduce American-style workfare in Scotland? If he did, did the First Minister indicate his support for that?", "EditedTextHTML": "In the course of the First Minister's meeting with the Prime Minister, did the Prime Minister indicate his intention to introduce American-style workfare in Scotland? If he did, did the First Minister indicate his support for that?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C711967", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27094, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 518.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27095, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 519.0, "QuestionHeading": "Prime Minister (Meeting)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27097, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 545.0, "DisplayOrder": 545.0, "ID": 27097, "ParentID": 27095 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 568.0, "ContributionID": 711967, "EditedText": "I know of no such plans.", "EditedTextHTML": "I know of no such plans.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711975", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27094, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 518.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27095, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 519.0, "QuestionHeading": "Anti-social Neighbour Orders", "QuestionHeadingID": 27098, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 570.0, "DisplayOrder": 570.0, "ID": 27098, "ParentID": 27095 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 585.0, "ContributionID": 711975, "EditedText": "That concludes question time.", "EditedTextHTML": "That concludes question time.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711977", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27094, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 518.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27095, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 519.0, "QuestionHeading": "Anti-social Neighbour Orders", "QuestionHeadingID": 27098, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 570.0, "DisplayOrder": 570.0, "ID": 27098, "ParentID": 27095 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 589.0, "ContributionID": 711977, "EditedText": "I notice that the Deputy Minister for Justice did not attend question time either, which is probably why the Lord Advocate had to answer certain questions. Does any other member of the Executive wish to comment?", "EditedTextHTML": "I notice that the Deputy Minister for Justice did not attend question time either, which is probably why the Lord Advocate had to answer certain questions. Does any other member of the Executive wish to comment?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C711980", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27094, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 518.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27095, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 519.0, "QuestionHeading": "Anti-social Neighbour Orders", "QuestionHeadingID": 27098, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 570.0, "DisplayOrder": 570.0, "ID": 27098, "ParentID": 27095 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 595.0, "ContributionID": 711980, "EditedText": "Although that is a tempting invitation for me to be on my feet all the time, I am not sure that the suggestion would find universal popularity or acceptance in the Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "Although that is a tempting invitation for me to be on my feet all the time, I am not sure that the suggestion would find universal popularity or acceptance in the Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711981", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27094, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 518.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27095, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 519.0, "QuestionHeading": "Anti-social Neighbour Orders", "QuestionHeadingID": 27098, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 570.0, "DisplayOrder": 570.0, "ID": 27098, "ParentID": 27095 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 597.0, "ContributionID": 711981, "EditedText": "I will examine the Official Report closely, but I did not detect any comments that were out of order. Let us move on to the debate.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will examine the Official Report closely, but I did not detect any comments that were out of order. Let us move on to the debate.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711982", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Digital Scotland", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27099, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 599.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 599.0, "ID": 27099, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 600.0, "ContributionID": 711982, "EditedText": "The next item of business is the debate on motion S1M-295, in the name of Peter Peacock, on the digital Scotland initiative. In light of this morning's experience, the times that have been agreed for the opening speeches are as follows: 15 minutes for the minister; 10 minutes for the Scottish National party spokesman; and eight minutes each for the Conservative and Liberal Democrat spokesmen. If members take interventions in the course of opening speeches, it will make the speeches longer. However, the time limits should be kept in mind, because we will not allow indefinite inflexibility, if I can put it that way.", "EditedTextHTML": "The next item of business is the debate on motion S1M-295, in the name of Peter Peacock, on the digital Scotland initiative.

In light of this morning's experience, the times that have been agreed for the opening speeches are as follows: 15 minutes for the minister; 10 minutes for the Scottish National party spokesman; and eight minutes each for the Conservative and Liberal Democrat spokesmen. If members take interventions in the course of opening speeches, it will make the speeches longer. However, the time limits should be kept in mind, because we will not allow indefinite inflexibility, if I can put it that way.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1775E171P452C711986", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Digital Scotland", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27099, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 599.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 599.0, "ID": 27099, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeod, Fiona", "ID": 1775, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona McLeod", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona McLeod (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 610.0, "ContributionID": 711986, "EditedText": "I note that the minister did not refer to the SNP amendment in his speech, but I hope that he and the Executive will accept it in the spirit in which it is intended. This debate is about a vision for Scotland's future, which is why the SNP welcome it. However, we must insist on our amendment, as we cannot have a vision that is full of good words alone. It is important that we are told how we are to achieve that vision, and it would be in line with the aim of taking Scotland forward if the Executive were to accept our amendment. I want to talk about the vision that we have for Scotland, which Peter Peacock also talked about. It is a vision for the 21st century, which will be the knowledge century. We want to build a knowledge society for Scotland that will empower everyone within it. We want to build a knowledge economy that will empower our industries and businesses, as we discussed in the debate on modernising the Scottish economy. We want to build a knowledge nation, because Scotland fulfils all the criteria for such a nation: we are the right size geographically, we have the right educational background and, increasingly, we have the necessary technological infrastructure to become such a nation.", "EditedTextHTML": "I note that the minister did not refer to the SNP amendment in his speech, but I hope that he and the Executive will accept it in the spirit in which it is intended. This debate is about a vision for Scotland's future, which is why the SNP welcome it. However, we must insist on our amendment, as we cannot have a vision that is full of good words alone. It is important that we are told how we are to achieve that vision, and it would be in line with the aim of taking Scotland forward if the Executive were to accept our amendment.

I want to talk about the vision that we have for Scotland, which Peter Peacock also talked about. It is a vision for the 21st century, which will be the knowledge century. We want to build a knowledge society for Scotland that will empower everyone within it. We want to build a knowledge economy that will empower our industries and businesses, as we discussed in the debate on modernising the Scottish economy. We want to build a knowledge nation, because Scotland fulfils all the criteria for such a nation: we are the right size geographically, we have the right educational background and, increasingly, we have the necessary technological infrastructure to become such a nation.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C711990", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Digital Scotland", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27099, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 599.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 599.0, "ID": 27099, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr David Davidson (North-East Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 619.0, "ContributionID": 711990, "EditedText": "We must teach people how to control their technology, not have it the other way round. I welcome today's debate. I am grateful for the opportunity to spend some time on it. That has been a little unusual in the chamber of late. I wish that we could have debated this issue earlier, as it is one of the building blocks of the future and it is a building block for the future of our economy. I turn to the motion that was lodged by the Executive. The Conservative party agrees readily with much of its content, although I want to comment on two phrases: \"that every community in Scotland must have high quality access\" and \"no matter where they live\". Those phrases alert us to the issue of how we are to establish the infrastructure requirements so that those fine statements can be validated. They raise issues of funding and partnership working. I wish that the minister could have been a bit more positive about where he was going, as we come late to this issue, and I sympathise with some of the comments that Fiona McLeod made. The minister came up with some interesting comments. He has invented a new word— edutainment. I take it from that that he considers that the best learning format is the computer game. I do not knock his comments, as there is an awareness of that, certainly, among the younger part of our community, and perhaps we should get others involved. I also welcome the fact that he has moved this issue into the Executive's top four priority issues. I hope that the First Minister and the rest of the Executive know that. We spend a lot of time in this Parliament trying to find out what our priorities are. Now, thanks to Peter Peacock, we have learned a bit more about that today. A ministerial group has been established. Fine. However, a question arose from what the minister said about filling the gaps in the infrastructure. He did not say how, or with what, that would be done. There are certain issues that the Executive has just not addressed yet. Conservative members— and, I think, all members—agree that access to the opportunity to get involved with the digital world is something that we all want. We feel that the digital initiative must touch every part of Scottish life: health, education, training, leisure and administration. Most important, it should enter the workplace, and all of that must be done in the most affordable manner. As we all agree, there are tremendous opportunities for Scotland in using the new technology to progress on all fronts. We are aware of the advances that have already been made in various sectors through the use of information and communications technology. For example, in academia there is now a second academic net— JANET II—and there are other initiatives that could be mentioned. The health service made great attempts to link up doctors' surgeries with consultants and hospital appointment facilities. My background is in pharmacy, and we have gone further in that field. We harnessed information technology to run purchasing and to access patient records and doctors' surgeries. I was pleased that the minister commented on the use of smart card technology. That idea that has been around for a long time in the health service, but, unfortunately, it has not yet received the Executive's support. In education, there is a need to develop young people's skills from an early age, in a manner that allows for future development. It is important that compatibility exists between the systems on which the children are taught and the equipment that they will have to use in later life, in further education and at work. The present situation must be changed, as it presents another hurdle for them to jump as they go on in life. Much is talked about in training, but we believe that there is more to it than just sending the capable to university. It is vital that we use this technology to take training into the community and the workplace. An example of that would be to move away from correspondence courses, which were used in the past in the hotel industry, to interactive IT training that would be undertaken at a time when the business could afford it. Many of our small businesses in Scotland cannot afford the time and do not have the opportunity to send people miles away for two days, to Inverness and so on. That is just not on, and we must do something about it. One of the things that I have picked up from my visits to the further education colleges is that they are desperately keen to get involved in training. However, the one thing they all tell me is that they lack finance and support from the centre. I ask the minister to consider that. This morning, we talked about a number of companies that use e-business for procurement. Perhaps the minister can tell us just how much Government, national and local, actually purchases in that cost-effective way. Economic development is a major driver for the digital world. In many cases, economic competitiveness depends on the use of technology, which depends on the computer literacy of our work force, particularly the management in our small and medium businesses. If we are to encourage them to join in the revolution, access to impartial advice must be available. The advice must offer appraisal of a company's needs as well as advice on equipment and software purchases. If ever there was a focus for Scottish Enterprise, this is it. There must also be marketing support on how to use the net to access the outside world.", "EditedTextHTML": "We must teach people how to control their technology, not have it the other way round.

I welcome today's debate. I am grateful for the opportunity to spend some time on it. That has been a little unusual in the chamber of late. I wish

that we could have debated this issue earlier, as it is one of the building blocks of the future and it is a building block for the future of our economy.

I turn to the motion that was lodged by the Executive. The Conservative party agrees readily with much of its content, although I want to comment on two phrases: \"that every community in Scotland must have high quality access\" and \"no matter where they live\". Those phrases alert us to the issue of how we are to establish the infrastructure requirements so that those fine statements can be validated. They raise issues of funding and partnership working. I wish that the minister could have been a bit more positive about where he was going, as we come late to this issue, and I sympathise with some of the comments that Fiona McLeod made.

The minister came up with some interesting comments. He has invented a new word— edutainment. I take it from that that he considers that the best learning format is the computer game. I do not knock his comments, as there is an awareness of that, certainly, among the younger part of our community, and perhaps we should get others involved. I also welcome the fact that he has moved this issue into the Executive's top four priority issues. I hope that the First Minister and the rest of the Executive know that. We spend a lot of time in this Parliament trying to find out what our priorities are. Now, thanks to Peter Peacock, we have learned a bit more about that today.

A ministerial group has been established. Fine. However, a question arose from what the minister said about filling the gaps in the infrastructure. He did not say how, or with what, that would be done. There are certain issues that the Executive has just not addressed yet. Conservative members— and, I think, all members—agree that access to the opportunity to get involved with the digital world is something that we all want. We feel that the digital initiative must touch every part of Scottish life: health, education, training, leisure and administration. Most important, it should enter the workplace, and all of that must be done in the most affordable manner.

As we all agree, there are tremendous opportunities for Scotland in using the new technology to progress on all fronts. We are aware of the advances that have already been made in various sectors through the use of information and communications technology. For example, in academia there is now a second academic net— JANET II—and there are other initiatives that could be mentioned. The health service made great attempts to link up doctors' surgeries with consultants and hospital appointment facilities. My background is in pharmacy, and we have gone further in that field. We harnessed information technology to run purchasing and to access patient records and doctors' surgeries. I was pleased that the minister commented on the use of smart card technology. That idea that has been around for a long time in the health service, but, unfortunately, it has not yet received the Executive's support.

In education, there is a need to develop young people's skills from an early age, in a manner that allows for future development. It is important that compatibility exists between the systems on which the children are taught and the equipment that they will have to use in later life, in further education and at work. The present situation must be changed, as it presents another hurdle for them to jump as they go on in life.

Much is talked about in training, but we believe that there is more to it than just sending the capable to university. It is vital that we use this technology to take training into the community and the workplace. An example of that would be to move away from correspondence courses, which were used in the past in the hotel industry, to interactive IT training that would be undertaken at a time when the business could afford it. Many of our small businesses in Scotland cannot afford the time and do not have the opportunity to send people miles away for two days, to Inverness and so on. That is just not on, and we must do something about it.

One of the things that I have picked up from my visits to the further education colleges is that they are desperately keen to get involved in training. However, the one thing they all tell me is that they lack finance and support from the centre. I ask the minister to consider that.

This morning, we talked about a number of companies that use e-business for procurement. Perhaps the minister can tell us just how much Government, national and local, actually purchases in that cost-effective way.

Economic development is a major driver for the digital world. In many cases, economic competitiveness depends on the use of technology, which depends on the computer literacy of our work force, particularly the management in our small and medium businesses. If we are to encourage them to join in the revolution, access to impartial advice must be available. The advice must offer appraisal of a company's needs as well as advice on equipment and software purchases. If ever there was a focus for Scottish Enterprise, this is it. There must also be marketing support on how to use the net to access the outside world.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C712033", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27100, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 713.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 713.0, "ID": 27100, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 718.0, "ContributionID": 712033, "EditedText": "There will be a division.", "EditedTextHTML": "There will be a division.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2044E178P334C711998", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Digital Scotland", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27099, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 599.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 599.0, "ID": 27099, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jenkins, Ian", "ID": 2044, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ian Jenkins", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ian Jenkins: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 636.0, "ContributionID": 711998, "EditedText": "I am happy to accept that. All the same, it is a pity that there was no mention in the manifesto. This morning, Nick Johnston said that computers do not create jobs. I know what he meant, but it was a naive thing to say. Under digital Scotland initiatives, community facilities all over Scotland will become wired to the internet in conjunction with BT and the other companies that Mr Peacock referred to. The voluntary sector and local industries will be wired up, opening up new opportunities for individuals, the voluntary sector and community organisations. We have to be optimistic. I am glad to see, for example, that Highlands and Islands Enterprise has an e-commerce adviser for small businesses, and that Scottish Borders Enterprise is forming an e-commerce strategy and is backing small companies all over the Borders. Heriot-Watt University is establishing a broadband link to the heart of the Borders. Our tourist industry is adopting Project Ossian to facilitate booking and ordering through the internet. A small group called Agrit is drawing together information for farmers, which will allow farmers to engage in direct marketing. With those developments, the signs are hopeful. Alasdair Morrison said the other day that we want to encourage rural businesses to jump on to the e-commerce express. As Fiona McLeod suggested, it had better be an express. It must be quick. We discussed the Waverley line in the Borders last week. I do not expect the e- commerce express to be an express in those terms, but I hope that we will have a virtual railway line all over Scotland in the digital revolution. Mr Peacock is on the right track for the digital revolution. I hope that e-commerce is an express. We support the motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am happy to accept that. All the same, it is a pity that there was no mention in the manifesto. This morning, Nick Johnston said that computers do not create jobs. I know what he meant, but it was a naive thing to say.

Under digital Scotland initiatives, community facilities all over Scotland will become wired to the internet in conjunction with BT and the other companies that Mr Peacock referred to. The voluntary sector and local industries will be wired up, opening up new opportunities for individuals, the voluntary sector and community organisations.

We have to be optimistic. I am glad to see, for example, that Highlands and Islands Enterprise has an e-commerce adviser for small businesses, and that Scottish Borders Enterprise is forming an e-commerce strategy and is backing small companies all over the Borders. Heriot-Watt University is establishing a broadband link to the heart of the Borders. Our tourist industry is adopting Project Ossian to facilitate booking and ordering through the internet. A small group called Agrit is drawing together information for farmers, which will allow farmers to engage in direct marketing. With those developments, the signs are hopeful.

Alasdair Morrison said the other day that we want to encourage rural businesses to jump on to the e-commerce express. As Fiona McLeod suggested, it had better be an express. It must be quick. We discussed the Waverley line in the Borders last week. I do not expect the e- commerce express to be an express in those terms, but I hope that we will have a virtual railway line all over Scotland in the digital revolution. Mr Peacock is on the right track for the digital revolution. I hope that e-commerce is an express. We support the motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C712030", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Digital Scotland", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27099, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 599.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 599.0, "ID": 27099, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 711.0, "ContributionID": 712030, "EditedText": "That concludes the debate. I would like to take advantage of the full attendance to say that, now that the weather is colder, I have had a complaint about members bringing coats into the chamber. That should not be done. If there are not enough coat racks outside the chamber, I will ensure that that is corrected.", "EditedTextHTML": "That concludes the debate. I would like to take advantage of the full attendance to say that, now that the weather is colder, I have had a complaint about members bringing coats into the chamber. That should not be done. If there are not enough coat racks outside the chamber, I will ensure that that is corrected.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C712004", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Digital Scotland", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27099, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 599.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 599.0, "ID": 27099, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell (South of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 653.0, "ContributionID": 712004, "EditedText": "It is with some regret that I congratulate Mr Peacock on his motion. I hope that he did not draft it. My regret is that I like Mr Peacock. This is an exciting subject; however, the motion is not only bland but rings with new Labour buzz- speak words: partnership, social well-being, championing and all such matters are in there. Modernise is not there—that must have been deleted from the dictionary today. However, the motion does not say anything. Mr Peacock dealt with this exciting subject in the manner in which an accountant might deal with a North sea caravan rating order. It is all dullness. We have to have some excitement about this subject as it is about nothing less than changing the world. Connections between individuals will be, and are becoming, entirely different, because of the advent of digital technology and the information society and world. A key issue is how to engage people in this. A range of people have stood up as if they were giving testaments at an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting to say that they cannot use computers and need help. The oldest member—the mother of the Parliament—cannot use computers. Neither can Mr Jenkins. Maureen Macmillan is trying to use them, and I see that another member cannot use them. We are all going to stand up like revivalists and ask for help. In their houses, people have one piece of equipment that they can use and that can connect them to the world: a television set. Almost everybody here can switch on a television set— nobody is putting their hand up to say that they cannot. Digital television changes the world for everybody. With digital television operating effectively across Scotland, we can begin to access a range of different things: not just television programmes, but interactive television programmes. I watched the Scotland v England game on Saturday on interactive television. It allowed me to watch the game from any angle. I have to tell members that it did not make the game any better.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is with some regret that I congratulate Mr Peacock on his motion. I hope that he did not draft it. My regret is that I like Mr Peacock.

This is an exciting subject; however, the motion is not only bland but rings with new Labour buzz- speak words: partnership, social well-being, championing and all such matters are in there. Modernise is not there—that must have been deleted from the dictionary today. However, the motion does not say anything.

Mr Peacock dealt with this exciting subject in the manner in which an accountant might deal with a North sea caravan rating order. It is all dullness. We have to have some excitement about this subject as it is about nothing less than changing the world. Connections between individuals will be, and are becoming, entirely different, because of the advent of digital technology and the information society and world.

A key issue is how to engage people in this. A range of people have stood up as if they were giving testaments at an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting to say that they cannot use computers and need help. The oldest member—the mother of the Parliament—cannot use computers. Neither can Mr Jenkins. Maureen Macmillan is trying to use them, and I see that another member cannot use them. We are all going to stand up like revivalists and ask for help.

In their houses, people have one piece of equipment that they can use and that can connect them to the world: a television set. Almost everybody here can switch on a television set— nobody is putting their hand up to say that they cannot. Digital television changes the world for everybody. With digital television operating effectively across Scotland, we can begin to access a range of different things: not just television programmes, but interactive television programmes.

I watched the Scotland v England game on Saturday on interactive television. It allowed me to watch the game from any angle. I have to tell members that it did not make the game any better.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C712007", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Digital Scotland", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27099, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 599.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 599.0, "ID": 27099, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 659.0, "ContributionID": 712007, "EditedText": "I have been fairly lenient about timings until now, but to accommodate everyone who wants to speak, it will be necessary for members to stick to four minutes from now on.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have been fairly lenient about timings until now, but to accommodate everyone who wants to speak, it will be necessary for members to stick to four minutes from now on.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C712012", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Digital Scotland", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27099, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 599.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 599.0, "ID": 27099, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 671.0, "ContributionID": 712012, "EditedText": "I will now call George Reid, if he can be particularly brief.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will now call George Reid, if he can be particularly brief.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C712017", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Digital Scotland", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27099, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 599.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 599.0, "ID": 27099, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 684.0, "ContributionID": 712017, "EditedText": "Thank you for concluding under time. I hope that I can encourage the minister to do the same, as we are behind time. Do your best to conclude in less than 10 minutes, if you can.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you for concluding under time. I hope that I can encourage the minister to do the same, as we are behind time. Do your best to conclude in less than 10 minutes, if you can.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C712021", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Digital Scotland", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27099, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 599.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 599.0, "ID": 27099, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 693.0, "ContributionID": 712021, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C712026", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Digital Scotland", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27099, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 599.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 599.0, "ID": 27099, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 703.0, "ContributionID": 712026, "EditedText": "The minister is entitled to do all those things, but perhaps he will give way.", "EditedTextHTML": "The minister is entitled to do all those things, but perhaps he will give way.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C712028", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Digital Scotland", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27099, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 599.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 599.0, "ID": 27099, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 707.0, "ContributionID": 712028, "EditedText": "That is old technology.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is old technology.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2167E79P155C712029", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Digital Scotland", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27099, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 599.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 599.0, "ID": 27099, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Peacock, Peter", "ID": 2167, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Peter Peacock", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Peter Peacock: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 709.0, "ContributionID": 712029, "EditedText": "Exactly. However, we are coming full circle because the new technologies will have the simplicity of Ceefax and people will be able to use them to access a range of other services. I could go on—members have made many other points—but I must come to a conclusion. Great opportunities for our economy and our society will follow from embracing digital communications technology. Distance, time and borders will cease to be barriers. Costs are falling and availability is increasing. Digital television is upon us and third-generation mobile telephones will be with us soon. The Executive has recognised that Scotland must be at the forefront of digital technology and that we must build on Scotland's natural advantages. The Government mechanisms have been put in place to realise our vision for Scotland and to ensure that our efforts are co-ordinated to get the best value for our investments and to stimulate private sector investment in infrastructure. Digitising Scotland means modernising Scotland. Being digital will become like air and water—only noticed when it is absent, but essential to our life. There must be unity of purpose throughout Scottish life to ensure that we get to the forefront and that we stay there. The Executive's strategy will reap huge benefits for Scotland and I commend it to the Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "Exactly. However, we are coming full circle because the new technologies will have the simplicity of Ceefax and people will be able to use them to access a range of other services. I could go on—members have made many other points—but I must come to a conclusion.

Great opportunities for our economy and our society will follow from embracing digital communications technology. Distance, time and borders will cease to be barriers. Costs are falling and availability is increasing. Digital television is upon us and third-generation mobile telephones will be with us soon. The Executive has recognised that Scotland must be at the forefront of digital technology and that we must build on Scotland's natural advantages. The Government mechanisms have been put in place to realise our vision for Scotland and to ensure that our efforts are co-ordinated to get the best value for our investments and to stimulate private sector investment in infrastructure.

Digitising Scotland means modernising Scotland. Being digital will become like air and water—only noticed when it is absent, but essential to our life. There must be unity of purpose throughout Scottish life to ensure that we get to the forefront and that we stay there. The Executive's strategy will reap huge benefits for Scotland and I commend it to the Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712036", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27100, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 713.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 713.0, "ID": 27100, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 723.0, "ContributionID": 712036, "EditedText": "Amendment disagreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment disagreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712040", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27100, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 713.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 713.0, "ID": 27100, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 730.0, "ContributionID": 712040, "EditedText": "FOR Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)AGAINST Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)ABSTENTIONS Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)

AGAINST

Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)

ABSTENTIONS

Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C712041", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27100, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 713.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 713.0, "ID": 27100, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 731.0, "ContributionID": 712041, "EditedText": "The result of the division is: For 27, Against 76, Abstentions 1.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result of the division is: For 27, Against 76, Abstentions 1.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712042", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27100, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 713.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 713.0, "ID": 27100, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 733.0, "ContributionID": 712042, "EditedText": "Amendment disagreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment disagreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712048", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27100, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 713.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 713.0, "ID": 27100, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 741.0, "ContributionID": 712048, "EditedText": "That the Parliament agrees that Patricia Ferguson be appointed to the Standards Committee.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament agrees that Patricia Ferguson be appointed to the Standards Committee.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C712051", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27100, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 713.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 713.0, "ID": 27100, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 746.0, "ContributionID": 712051, "EditedText": "There will be a division.", "EditedTextHTML": "There will be a division.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C712063", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Domestic Water Supply (Bo'ness)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27101, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 764.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 764.0, "ID": 27101, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 765.0, "ContributionID": 712063, "EditedText": "I make my usual appeal to members who are leaving to do so quietly and quickly—and, on this occasion, to take their coats with them. We now move to the members' debate on motion S1M-189, in the name of Michael Matheson, on the pollution of the domestic water supply in Bo'ness.", "EditedTextHTML": "I make my usual appeal to members who are leaving to do so quietly and quickly—and, on this occasion, to take their coats with them. We now move to the members' debate on motion S1M-189, in the name of Michael Matheson, on the pollution of the domestic water supply in Bo'ness.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712064", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Domestic Water Supply (Bo'ness)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27101, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 764.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 764.0, "ID": 27101, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 767.0, "ContributionID": 712064, "EditedText": "Motion debated,", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion debated,

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C712055", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27100, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 713.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 713.0, "ID": 27100, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 752.0, "ContributionID": 712055, "EditedText": "The sixth question is, that motion S1M-295, in the name of Peter Peacock, on the digital Scotland initiative, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "The sixth question is, that motion S1M-295, in the name of Peter Peacock, on the digital Scotland initiative, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C712057", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27100, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 713.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 713.0, "ID": 27100, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 756.0, "ContributionID": 712057, "EditedText": "There will be a division.", "EditedTextHTML": "There will be a division.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712061", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27100, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 713.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 713.0, "ID": 27100, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 762.0, "ContributionID": 712061, "EditedText": "That the Parliament recognises the crucial importance to Scotland's economic and social well-being of embracing and making full use of new developments in digital information and communications technology; believes that Scotland must seize the opportunities offered to gain competitive economic advantage, enhance learning opportunities for all, open up information resources to every citizen, and offer modern and efficient public services;", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament recognises the crucial importance to Scotland's economic and social well-being of embracing and making full use of new developments in digital information and communications technology; believes that Scotland must seize the opportunities offered to gain competitive economic advantage, enhance learning opportunities for all, open up information resources to every citizen, and offer modern and efficient public services;

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1754E157P235C712067", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Domestic Water Supply (Bo'ness)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27101, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 764.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 764.0, "ID": 27101, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Peattie, Cathy", "ID": 1754, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Cathy Peattie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Cathy Peattie (Falkirk East) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 773.0, "ContributionID": 712067, "EditedText": "As the constituency MSP for Falkirk East, I was somewhat surprised when I heard that this debate was to take place. It would have been a good idea if Michael had spoken to me. I am sure he agrees that on other issues, such as European funding, I have contacted him and kept him up to date. I would have expected the same courtesy.", "EditedTextHTML": "As the constituency MSP for Falkirk East, I was somewhat surprised when I heard that this debate was to take place. It would have been a good idea if Michael had spoken to me. I am sure he agrees

that on other issues, such as European funding, I have contacted him and kept him up to date. I would have expected the same courtesy.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2010E221P512C712070", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Domestic Water Supply (Bo'ness)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27101, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 764.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 764.0, "ID": 27101, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Paterson, Gil", "ID": 2010, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Gil Paterson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Gil Paterson (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 780.0, "ContributionID": 712070, "EditedText": "I have a great fondness and high regard for Bo'ness that goes back to a time a number of years ago when I was elected on the same day as Councillor Harry Constable. We got together the day after we were elected and the connection remains. I am pleased to be speaking in this debate tonight. It is disturbing that the situation that Michael Matheson referred to has gone on for 10 years and that the people in Bo'ness have lost confidence in the authorities because of a saga of misinformation and through being ignored. The situation would be bad enough if a private business were involved, but it is not on for public bodies to treat the people who own and finance them this way. The practice of giving bad information seems to be the norm in some situations. A similar problem exists in the village of Greengairs. Although the problem is not connected with water pollution, the circumstances are almost identical. Greengairs village is surrounded by the Shanks & McEwan landfill site. The gas arising from it is overpowering at times and can cause nausea and headaches in local residents. Recently, the smell has been much worse. The Scottish Environment Protection Agency has admitted that the facility for dealing with landfill gas at the Greengairs site is struggling with the quantity of gas that is being produced. Four additional engines were needed to burn the excess gas, but implementation was delayed until the site could be connected to the national grid and Scottish Power could start work at the site. Where I am leading to will become clear soon.In addition to the smell, the local spring became polluted with ammonia as a result of leachate seeping from the landfill into the water supply. SEPA's reaction to the revelation was to dismiss it as not serious. While levels of ammonia may not have been high enough to cause major concern, the fact that contamination occurred was more of an issue. Despite a sustained letter writing campaign and representations being made by local Councillor Sandra Cox, which was similar to the situation that Michael Matheson referred to—", "EditedTextHTML": "I have a great fondness and high regard for Bo'ness that goes back to a time a number of years ago when I was elected on the same day as Councillor Harry Constable. We got together the day after we were elected and the connection remains. I am pleased to be speaking in this debate tonight.

It is disturbing that the situation that Michael Matheson referred to has gone on for 10 years and that the people in Bo'ness have lost confidence in the authorities because of a saga of misinformation and through being ignored. The situation would be bad enough if a private business were involved, but it is not on for public bodies to treat the people who own and finance them this way. The practice of giving bad information seems to be the norm in some situations. A similar problem exists in the village of Greengairs. Although the problem is not connected with water pollution, the circumstances are almost identical.

Greengairs village is surrounded by the Shanks & McEwan landfill site. The gas arising from it is overpowering at times and can cause nausea and headaches in local residents. Recently, the smell has been much worse. The Scottish Environment Protection Agency has admitted that the facility for dealing with landfill gas at the Greengairs site is struggling with the quantity of gas that is being produced. Four additional engines were needed to burn the excess gas, but implementation was delayed until the site could be connected to the national grid and Scottish Power could start work at the site.

Where I am leading to will become clear soon.

In addition to the smell, the local spring became polluted with ammonia as a result of leachate seeping from the landfill into the water supply. SEPA's reaction to the revelation was to dismiss it as not serious. While levels of ammonia may not have been high enough to cause major concern, the fact that contamination occurred was more of an issue.

Despite a sustained letter writing campaign and representations being made by local Councillor Sandra Cox, which was similar to the situation that Michael Matheson referred to—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C712071", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Domestic Water Supply (Bo'ness)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27101, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 764.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 764.0, "ID": 27101, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 782.0, "ContributionID": 712071, "EditedText": "I hope that you will return to the subject of Bo'ness fairly quickly and that you are providing an illustrative example.", "EditedTextHTML": "I hope that you will return to the subject of Bo'ness fairly quickly and that you are providing an illustrative example.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2010E221P512C712072", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Domestic Water Supply (Bo'ness)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27101, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 764.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 764.0, "ID": 27101, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Paterson, Gil", "ID": 2010, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Gil Paterson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Paterson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 784.0, "ContributionID": 712072, "EditedText": "I guarantee it.The answers that Sandra Cox received wereunsatisfactory. It is unacceptable that authorities are being underhand and secretive and are rubbishing people's concerns. There are many parallels between what happened in Bo'ness and at Greengairs. Both areas suffered as a result of unnecessary and unacceptable pollution. Both areas sustained a campaign to reverse the situation that they found themselves in and were fobbed off and belittled by those to whom they complained. Both groups of people were not given the full facts. Both groups of people suffered reduced confidence in something they should have been able to take for granted. Both areas need comprehensive and public reviews to put at ease the minds of those concerned and to close the matter and alleviate other concerns. I am pleased that Michael Matheson has promoted this debate as it will bring the plight of the people of Bo'ness to the attention of the Scottish Parliament and highlight the lack of action to stop the pollution of the water supply in the Angus Road area. It raises concerns felt in many places in Scotland about the need to make public bodies more accountable and responsive to the needs of the communities they are supposed to serve.", "EditedTextHTML": "I guarantee it.

The answers that Sandra Cox received were

unsatisfactory. It is unacceptable that authorities are being underhand and secretive and are rubbishing people's concerns. There are many parallels between what happened in Bo'ness and at Greengairs. Both areas suffered as a result of unnecessary and unacceptable pollution. Both areas sustained a campaign to reverse the situation that they found themselves in and were fobbed off and belittled by those to whom they complained. Both groups of people were not given the full facts. Both groups of people suffered reduced confidence in something they should have been able to take for granted.

Both areas need comprehensive and public reviews to put at ease the minds of those concerned and to close the matter and alleviate other concerns. I am pleased that Michael Matheson has promoted this debate as it will bring the plight of the people of Bo'ness to the attention of the Scottish Parliament and highlight the lack of action to stop the pollution of the water supply in the Angus Road area. It raises concerns felt in many places in Scotland about the need to make public bodies more accountable and responsive to the needs of the communities they are supposed to serve.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1973E119P326C712073", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Domestic Water Supply (Bo'ness)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27101, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 764.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 764.0, "ID": 27101, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gorrie, Donald", "ID": 1973, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Donald Gorrie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Donald Gorrie (Central Scotland) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 787.0, "ContributionID": 712073, "EditedText": "Public confidence in water is critical. I hope that the minister will ensure that the confidence of the people of Bo'ness is restored by whatever means are necessary. I will raise two general issues. I understand that East of Scotland Water says that making an improvement for the residents in Bo'ness is not high up its list of priorities, as other areas have even greater need, so it cannot attend to the matter quickly. That raises the issue of investment in public services in Scotland. Wherever we look, every service needs more investment. We must tackle how we obtain more money to invest in all the public services, including drains, schools, hospitals and buses. The other issue is the accountability of the water boards. Before the 1997 election, the Labour party promised a bonfire of the quangos. That did not occur—as with many political promises, it was not well thought out. Merely replacing some Conservative councillors on water boards with Labour councillors is not the answer, with all due respect to the people involved, many of whom are excellent. We must consider how to make the water boards more accountable to the public, so that legitimate concerns, such as those raised by the people in Bo'ness, can be answered more satisfactorily.", "EditedTextHTML": "Public confidence in water is critical. I hope that the minister will ensure that the confidence of the people of Bo'ness is restored by whatever means are necessary.

I will raise two general issues. I understand that East of Scotland Water says that making an improvement for the residents in Bo'ness is not high up its list of priorities, as other areas have even greater need, so it cannot attend to the matter quickly. That raises the issue of investment in public services in Scotland. Wherever we look, every service needs more investment. We must tackle how we obtain more money to invest in all the public services, including drains, schools, hospitals and buses.

The other issue is the accountability of the water boards. Before the 1997 election, the Labour party promised a bonfire of the quangos. That did not occur—as with many political promises, it was not well thought out. Merely replacing some Conservative councillors on water boards with Labour councillors is not the answer, with all due respect to the people involved, many of whom are excellent. We must consider how to make the water boards more accountable to the public, so that legitimate concerns, such as those raised by the people in Bo'ness, can be answered more satisfactorily.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C712074", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Domestic Water Supply (Bo'ness)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27101, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 764.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 764.0, "ID": 27101, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 790.0, "ContributionID": 712074, "EditedText": "congratulate Mr Matheson on bringing the issue to the Parliament's attention and to the minister's attention. One of the benefits of this Parliament is that issues such as this are now raised and aired, whereas at Westminster they are never dealt with. The Parliament will be judged by the extent to which action is taken as a result of the debate. Debate in itself is not good enough—we need action. I say to the minister that we need action from her now. I am reminded of Ibsen's play, \"A Public Enemy\", in which somebody cries foul and that person becomes the public enemy in the eyes of the authorities. Ibsen's play was about a swimming pool and its water supply. In this case, we are talking about the water supply for domestic purposes, which is even more important. I agree with three substantive points raised by Donald Gorrie. First, we must address long-term investment in the water supply, especially in situations such as this, where it may not be part of the mainstream investment programme but where something has gone wrong and is a potential if not an actual threat to public health. Secondly, we must make the water boards much more accountable to the people they are supposed to serve; to the clientele. I agree with Donald Gorrie that the present structure is not accountable enough. Thirdly, we must ensure that such problems receive a far faster response. As Michael Matheson pointed out, this is not a new problem. It has not arisen in the past six months since the Scottish Parliament was elected—it has existed for at least 10 years. When she addresses the issue, I hope that the minister will take this as a template for the way in which to deal with situations where a much faster response than 10 years is needed. While the matter raises much bigger issues and exemplifies many of the bigger policy issues in relation to the water boards, I would make two points to the minister. First, I ask her to take action now on the Bo'ness supply. Secondly, we should learn the lessons for the future from this matter so that no other community in Scotland has to undergo a 10year wait before its domestic water supply gets back to normal.", "EditedTextHTML": "congratulate Mr Matheson on bringing the issue to the Parliament's attention and to the minister's attention. One of the benefits of this Parliament is that issues such as this are now raised and aired, whereas at Westminster they are never dealt with. The Parliament will be judged by the extent to which action is taken as a result of the debate. Debate in itself is not good enough—we need action. I say to the minister that we need action from her now.

I am reminded of Ibsen's play, \"A Public Enemy\", in which somebody cries foul and that person becomes the public enemy in the eyes of the authorities. Ibsen's play was about a swimming pool and its water supply. In this case, we are talking about the water supply for domestic purposes, which is even more important.

I agree with three substantive points raised by Donald Gorrie. First, we must address long-term investment in the water supply, especially in situations such as this, where it may not be part of the mainstream investment programme but where something has gone wrong and is a potential if not an actual threat to public health.

Secondly, we must make the water boards much more accountable to the people they are supposed to serve; to the clientele. I agree with Donald Gorrie that the present structure is not accountable enough.

Thirdly, we must ensure that such problems receive a far faster response. As Michael Matheson pointed out, this is not a new problem. It has not arisen in the past six months since the Scottish Parliament was elected—it has existed for at least 10 years.

When she addresses the issue, I hope that the minister will take this as a template for the way in which to deal with situations where a much faster response than 10 years is needed. While the matter raises much bigger issues and exemplifies many of the bigger policy issues in relation to the water boards, I would make two points to the minister. First, I ask her to take action now on the Bo'ness supply. Secondly, we should learn the lessons for the future from this matter so that no other community in Scotland has to undergo a 10year wait before its domestic water supply gets back to normal.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1783E59P270C711894", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27073, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 359.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27074, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 360.0, "QuestionHeading": "Female Offenders", "QuestionHeadingID": 27079, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 399.0, "DisplayOrder": 399.0, "ID": 27079, "ParentID": 27074 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Baillie, Jackie", "ID": 1783, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumbarton" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Jackie Baillie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Jackie Baillie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 404.0, "ContributionID": 711894, "EditedText": "Indeed I can, because the forum led by Professor Sheila McLean is looking at alternatives to custody and will specifically address the issue of enhanced services in the community. An immediate change that has already been implemented is the bail retrieval scheme in Cornton Vale, which allows women offenders a second chance of being released on bail and under supervision.", "EditedTextHTML": "Indeed I can, because the forum led by Professor Sheila McLean is looking at alternatives to custody and will specifically address the issue of enhanced services in the community. An immediate change that has already been implemented is the bail retrieval scheme in Cornton Vale, which allows women offenders a second chance of being released on bail and under supervision.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:05:19.2124205+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1783E59P270C711936", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27073, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 359.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27074, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 360.0, "QuestionHeading": "Halfway Houses", "QuestionHeadingID": 27091, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 495.0, "DisplayOrder": 495.0, "ID": 27091, "ParentID": 27074 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Baillie, Jackie", "ID": 1783, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumbarton" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Jackie Baillie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Jackie Baillie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 500.0, "ContributionID": 711936, "EditedText": "I recognise the deep-seated problems that women in Cornton Vale— particularly those with children—experience. Already, family visits take place in far more relaxed settings, with appropriate child care support. Special provision is made for mothers and babies to be located together. Nevertheless, the Executive would be happy to consider further what can be done for women offenders with children.", "EditedTextHTML": "I recognise the deep-seated problems that women in Cornton Vale— particularly those with children—experience. Already, family visits take place in far more relaxed settings, with appropriate child care support. Special provision is made for mothers and babies to be located together. Nevertheless, the Executive would be happy to consider further what can be done for women offenders with children.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:05:19.2124205+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1783E59P270C711970", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27094, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 518.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27095, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 519.0, "QuestionHeading": "Anti-social Neighbour Orders", "QuestionHeadingID": 27098, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 570.0, "DisplayOrder": 570.0, "ID": 27098, "ParentID": 27095 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Baillie, Jackie", "ID": 1783, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumbarton" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Jackie Baillie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Jackie Baillie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 575.0, "ContributionID": 711970, "EditedText": "The Executive is very aware of and deeply concerned about the misery that anti-social behaviour causes to individuals, to families and to wider communities—which is precisely why we introduced anti-social behaviour orders in the first place. As I said, the Chartered Institute of Housing is monitoring usage for us. It is monitoring the anti-social behaviour orders applied for, those granted, and those that have subsequently been breached. We have heard informally of several successful applications by local authorities, with the first in Dundee and several recently in Edinburgh. We encourage local authorities with such problems in their area to make use of the orders.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Executive is very aware of and deeply concerned about the misery that anti-social behaviour causes to individuals, to families and to wider communities—which is precisely why we introduced anti-social behaviour orders in the first place. As I said, the Chartered Institute of Housing is monitoring usage for us. It is monitoring

the anti-social behaviour orders applied for, those granted, and those that have subsequently been breached.

We have heard informally of several successful applications by local authorities, with the first in Dundee and several recently in Edinburgh. We encourage local authorities with such problems in their area to make use of the orders.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:06:33.7651873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1783E59P270C711974", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27094, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 518.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27095, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 519.0, "QuestionHeading": "Anti-social Neighbour Orders", "QuestionHeadingID": 27098, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 570.0, "DisplayOrder": 570.0, "ID": 27098, "ParentID": 27095 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Baillie, Jackie", "ID": 1783, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumbarton" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Jackie Baillie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Jackie Baillie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 583.0, "ContributionID": 711974, "EditedText": "From 1 December 1998, section 23 of the Crime and Disorder Act 1998 dealt with anti-social behaviour orders in relation to owner- occupiers. People can lose their homes if they suffer a custodial sentence and do not have the means to repay their mortgage, if drugs are involved or because of confiscation. Such provision already exists.", "EditedTextHTML": "From 1 December 1998, section 23 of the Crime and Disorder Act 1998 dealt with anti-social behaviour orders in relation to owner- occupiers. People can lose their homes if they suffer a custodial sentence and do not have the means to repay their mortgage, if drugs are involved or because of confiscation. Such provision already exists.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:06:33.7651873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C711728", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 51.0, "ContributionID": 711728, "EditedText": "I associate the Scottish National party with the minister's remarks about the fine performance of the Scottish squad last night. Does the minister speculate that, if his playing career were still active, he might have been able to take that final step and secure a victory for Scotland last night?", "EditedTextHTML": "I associate the Scottish National party with the minister's remarks about the fine performance of the Scottish squad last night. Does the minister speculate that, if his playing career were still active, he might have been able to take that final step and secure a victory for Scotland last night?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:00:40.1346265+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711706", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ethical Standards in Public Life Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27069, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27069, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 4.0, "ContributionID": 711706, "EditedText": "The first item of business is a statement by the Deputy Minister for Local Government on the publication of a draft ethical standards in public life bill. The minister will take questions at the end of the statement, so there should be no interventions.", "EditedTextHTML": "The first item of business is a statement by the Deputy Minister for Local Government on the publication of a draft ethical standards in public life bill. The minister will take questions at the end of the statement, so there should be no interventions.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5295195+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C711711", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ethical Standards in Public Life Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27069, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27069, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie (Lothians) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 15.0, "ContributionID": 711711, "EditedText": "As we said when the First Minister announced the legislative programme, the Conservatives have no objection in principle to this bill. It starts the long process of restoring public confidence in our local authorities—confidence which is sadly lacking. The minister is to be commended for that, but the fact that the bill is necessary at all is a damning indictment of the unacceptable face of the Scottish Labour party in local government in Scotland. If the Labour party had put its house in order, legislative time would not be required for this purpose. I notice that the minister proudly referred to the standards initiative taken by Glasgow City Council that had all-party support. Does Mr McAveety agree that the miracle in George Square was not that the initiative commanded all-party support, but that it commanded the support of one party—his party? I want to ask a few specific questions about the bill. The idea of a standards commission is fine on its own, but the minister also referred in his statement to the local government ombudsman and the Accounts Commission for Scotland. Are we not, perhaps, in danger of duplication and overlapping of functions between those bodies and the proposed new commission? Should not we be looking to rationalise the number of scrutinising authorities? How will overlaps between the standards commission, the Accounts Commission and the ombudsman be dealt with within the framework that the minister envisages will develop through this legislation? The repeal of section 28, or section 2A, has been tacked on to the ethical standards bill. The Conservatives regard that as yet another example of the perverse priorities of the Executive. That part of the bill has nothing to do with ethical standards and everything to do with political correctness. Will the minister explain what local authorities are currently constrained from doing that they would wish to do when section 2A is repealed? I found his justification for the repeal somewhat unconvincing. If local authorities plan a range of new activities after the repeal of section 2A, how much does the minister envisage that such activities will cost, and what local services will be cut to pay for them? Finally, does the minister's postbag make him aware, as mine does, that there is concern among parents regarding the content of sex education and social education classes in our schools? Those classes might not conform to the parents' wishes or to the family values that they wish to promote. In those circumstances, will not repeal of section 2A add to their anxieties, and does not the minister agree that, at this time, it would be more appropriate to set out and to agree curriculum guidelines on such sensitive issues—guidelines to which all parties could agree before taking the steps proposed in the bill?", "EditedTextHTML": "As we said when the First Minister announced the legislative programme, the Conservatives have no objection in principle to this bill. It starts the long process of restoring public confidence in our local authorities—confidence which is sadly lacking. The minister is to be commended for that, but the fact that the bill is necessary at all is a damning indictment of the unacceptable face of the Scottish Labour party in local government in Scotland. If the Labour party had put its house in order, legislative time would not be required for this purpose.

I notice that the minister proudly referred to the standards initiative taken by Glasgow City Council

that had all-party support. Does Mr McAveety agree that the miracle in George Square was not that the initiative commanded all-party support, but that it commanded the support of one party—his party?

I want to ask a few specific questions about the bill. The idea of a standards commission is fine on its own, but the minister also referred in his statement to the local government ombudsman and the Accounts Commission for Scotland. Are we not, perhaps, in danger of duplication and overlapping of functions between those bodies and the proposed new commission? Should not we be looking to rationalise the number of scrutinising authorities? How will overlaps between the standards commission, the Accounts Commission and the ombudsman be dealt with within the framework that the minister envisages will develop through this legislation?

The repeal of section 28, or section 2A, has been tacked on to the ethical standards bill. The Conservatives regard that as yet another example of the perverse priorities of the Executive. That part of the bill has nothing to do with ethical standards and everything to do with political correctness. Will the minister explain what local authorities are currently constrained from doing that they would wish to do when section 2A is repealed? I found his justification for the repeal somewhat unconvincing. If local authorities plan a range of new activities after the repeal of section 2A, how much does the minister envisage that such activities will cost, and what local services will be cut to pay for them?

Finally, does the minister's postbag make him aware, as mine does, that there is concern among parents regarding the content of sex education and social education classes in our schools? Those classes might not conform to the parents' wishes or to the family values that they wish to promote. In those circumstances, will not repeal of section 2A add to their anxieties, and does not the minister agree that, at this time, it would be more appropriate to set out and to agree curriculum guidelines on such sensitive issues—guidelines to which all parties could agree before taking the steps proposed in the bill?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1996E124P211C711714", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ethical Standards in Public Life Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27069, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27069, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAveety, Mr Frank", "ID": 1996, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Shettleston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Local Government", "SpeakerName": "Frank McAveety", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McAveety: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 21.0, "ContributionID": 711714, "EditedText": "I reassure Donald Gorrie that we will consult throughout Scotland on the codes, and that we will welcome contributions from MSPs. It is also important that local government shares this agenda. For too long, councillors have felt that they were not being considered in this debate. It is important to recognise that they have a contribution to make to the development of codes. Without the active consent and support of local government, such a principle cannot be maintained. Donald Gorrie asked whether he was daft or sensible. If he had gone to Hampden, he would have been daft; if he had gone to Wembley, he would have been absolutely sensible. It is a matter of judgment, depending on the circumstances at the time. I firmly believe that some matters can be dealt with quickly and efficiently locally, and that reassurance can be given to the wider public. There will be an escalating level of severity, according to the nature of the case. That can be discussed at stage 1 of the bill. Donald Gorrie said that corruption cannot be proved, as deals take place in private rooms. At the moment, we do not have the benefits of \"The Truman Show\", in which everything is recorded for public consumption. That is why we need a framework for this code for ethical standards in public life. This is Holyrood, not Hollywood, and it is important that that issue is addressed. We must ensure that there are clear guidelines for its effective operation. I assure Donald Gorrie that we take those matters on board, and that they will influence some of the debates through the Local Government Committee and through the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities.", "EditedTextHTML": "I reassure Donald Gorrie that we will consult throughout Scotland on the codes, and that we will welcome contributions from MSPs. It is also important that local government shares this agenda. For too long, councillors have felt that they were not being considered in this debate. It is important to recognise that they have a contribution to make to the development of codes. Without the active consent and support of local government, such a principle cannot be maintained.

Donald Gorrie asked whether he was daft or sensible. If he had gone to Hampden, he would have been daft; if he had gone to Wembley, he would have been absolutely sensible. It is a matter of judgment, depending on the circumstances at the time. I firmly believe that some matters can be dealt with quickly and efficiently locally, and that reassurance can be given to the wider public. There will be an escalating level of severity, according to the nature of the case. That can be discussed at stage 1 of the bill.

Donald Gorrie said that corruption cannot be proved, as deals take place in private rooms. At the moment, we do not have the benefits of \"The Truman Show\", in which everything is recorded for public consumption. That is why we need a framework for this code for ethical standards in public life. This is Holyrood, not Hollywood, and it is important that that issue is addressed. We must ensure that there are clear guidelines for its effective operation.

I assure Donald Gorrie that we take those matters on board, and that they will influence some of the debates through the Local Government Committee and through the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1996E124P211C711720", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ethical Standards in Public Life Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27069, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27069, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAveety, Mr Frank", "ID": 1996, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Shettleston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Local Government", "SpeakerName": "Frank McAveety", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McAveety: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 33.0, "ContributionID": 711720, "EditedText": "The bill will reassure people and reinforce the general public confidence in those who operate in our elected and appointed bodies. In his assessment, Nolan found very little evidence of what the tabloid press might call allegations of the misuse of public office. We want to set a standard, from the outset of this Parliament, that is of such a high level that the public will be reassured that we are operating in the public interest rather than from self-interest. I accept what Karen Gillon is saying about others who are involved in education. Many people who are involved in care provision or youth provision would welcome the opportunity for the flexibility that the repeal of section 2A would provide, to address many of the concerns that young people themselves have raised. Only recently, it was found that, within the gay and lesbian community in Glasgow, almost 60 per cent of people had been threatened or physically attacked in the past year on the grounds of their sexual orientation. Youth workers on the streets would pick that up in debates and through sharing experiences. There is a need to respond to that in a sensitive and understanding way, which the repeal of section 2A will allow to a greater extent. That will be welcomed not only by the gay and lesbian community, but by everyone in Scotland who believes that we should use community education and youth work to assist young people in the difficult choices that they face.", "EditedTextHTML": "The bill will reassure people and reinforce the general public confidence in those who operate in our elected and appointed bodies. In his assessment, Nolan found very little evidence of what the tabloid press might call allegations of the misuse of public office. We want to set a standard, from the outset of this Parliament, that is of such a high level that the public will be reassured that we are operating in the public interest rather than from self-interest.

I accept what Karen Gillon is saying about others who are involved in education. Many people who are involved in care provision or youth provision would welcome the opportunity for the flexibility that the repeal of section 2A would provide, to address many of the concerns that young people themselves have raised. Only recently, it was found that, within the gay and lesbian community in Glasgow, almost 60 per cent of people had been threatened or physically attacked in the past year on the grounds of their sexual orientation. Youth workers on the streets would pick that up in debates and through sharing experiences.

There is a need to respond to that in a sensitive and understanding way, which the repeal of section 2A will allow to a greater extent. That will be welcomed not only by the gay and lesbian community, but by everyone in Scotland who believes that we should use community education and youth work to assist young people in the difficult choices that they face.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C711735", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan (Glasgow) (SSP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 65.0, "ContributionID": 711735, "EditedText": "Is the minister aware of the recent Joseph Rowntree Foundation report that shows that the pressure to boost performance and cut costs has led to a serious intensification of work and has pushed job insecurity to its highest level since the second world war, causing health, family relationships and the long-term future of the economy to be put at risk because of the increased push on competitiveness? What is his response to that report?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is the minister aware of the recent Joseph Rowntree Foundation report that shows that the pressure to boost performance and cut costs has led to a serious intensification of work and has pushed job insecurity to its highest level since the second world war, causing health, family relationships and the long-term future of the economy to be put at risk because of the increased push on competitiveness? What is his response to that report?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C711736", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 67.0, "ContributionID": 711736, "EditedText": "I am aware of the report but I do not recognise the interpretation that Tommy Sheridan has put on the findings—Interruption.— a view that is perhaps shared by the baby in the gallery. I agree that the basic economic foundations are there and that we are rapidly modernising. Unemployment is at the lowest level for a quarter of a century; we have all the ingredients for economic success. As an Executive we believe—and I am sure the Parliament agrees—that one of the ways in which to tackle social exclusion is to ensure that people have access to employment opportunities and to training and education in the learning society that we are trying to develop. Tommy has an over- pessimistic view of what is happening, but there are nevertheless real challenges in the UK and in Scotland and on that I am sure he and I can agree. The chancellor announced new measures that will help to raise our productivity faster than that of our competitors, including the reform of capital gains tax and new incentives for corporate ventures and share ownership. The chancellor gave the clearest signal yet that this is a business- friendly Government that recognises that investment and risk taking must be better rewarded. I associate myself with his comments and I hope that they will be endorsed by the Parliament. We must look at new models to help the economy.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am aware of the report but I do not recognise the interpretation that Tommy

Sheridan has put on the findings—[Interruption.]— a view that is perhaps shared by the baby in the gallery. I agree that the basic economic foundations are there and that we are rapidly modernising. Unemployment is at the lowest level for a quarter of a century; we have all the ingredients for economic success. As an Executive we believe—and I am sure the Parliament agrees—that one of the ways in which to tackle social exclusion is to ensure that people have access to employment opportunities and to training and education in the learning society that we are trying to develop. Tommy has an over- pessimistic view of what is happening, but there are nevertheless real challenges in the UK and in Scotland and on that I am sure he and I can agree.

The chancellor announced new measures that will help to raise our productivity faster than that of our competitors, including the reform of capital gains tax and new incentives for corporate ventures and share ownership. The chancellor gave the clearest signal yet that this is a business- friendly Government that recognises that investment and risk taking must be better rewarded. I associate myself with his comments and I hope that they will be endorsed by the Parliament. We must look at new models to help the economy.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C711737", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 69.0, "ContributionID": 711737, "EditedText": "Does the minister realise that Scotland's share of the benefits from the chancellor's pre-budget speech is outweighed by a factor of five as a result of the interest rates announced by the Bank of England? Any benefit to Scotland from the chancellor's measures has already been wiped out. Additionally, the increase in interest rates maintains a pound overvalued by about 20 per cent, with a devastating impact on our export industries.", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the minister realise that Scotland's share of the benefits from the chancellor's pre-budget speech is outweighed by a factor of five as a result of the interest rates announced by the Bank of England? Any benefit to Scotland from the chancellor's measures has already been wiped out. Additionally, the increase in interest rates maintains a pound overvalued by about 20 per cent, with a devastating impact on our export industries.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C711738", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 71.0, "ContributionID": 711738, "EditedText": "The latter comment on the impact on exports is simply untrue—the volume of exports in the second quarter of 1999 is up by 6.4 per cent. That suggests to me that rather than bemoaning the conditions that beset the economy, our exporters are working very hard to ensure that they win exports and prosperity and, more important, keep jobs throughout Scotland. Calculations based on the fantasy figures that Alex Neil has used produce fantasy results. The pre- budget report identified the key areas that will help us win success. No one in this Parliament should be decrying the chancellor's right to do that in the interests of the UK and Scotland. The Scottish Parliament can help to fine tune our resources to fit the needs of Scotland, and it is helping to bring about a new confidence in our ability to determine our economic future. New models of working with business are taking shape. That must be set in the context of the economic framework that is being developed by the Scottish Executive under the direction of the chief economic adviser, Dr Andrew Goudie. The framework looks at how economic progress can be accelerated while meeting our commitments on social justice and the environment. We are beginning a major process of consultation and I encourage members who would like to participate in this effort to make contact with Dr Goudie, who will be happy to meet them. I add, for John Swinney's benefit, that we want to have serious discussions on the new framework with the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee. Companies must tap into the latest ideas and markets and produce innovative products for them. That is what greater entrepreneurship is about. It is a risky process; it requires vision and courage to enter new markets, which may not in the short term produce the returns that the company would like. It is instructive that many of the new, highly valued, internet-based companies have yet to produce a profit. The UK generally lags behind our main rivals in this kind of entrepreneurship, but there are some very good role models. In recent years, huge successes have been chalked up in telecommunications, the utilities, financial services and transportation. We need to tilt the balance towards risk taking so that we are more often the first to benefit from new trends. We need a cultural shift towards greater acknowledgement of risk takers and the economic benefits that they can bring; towards not always rushing to condemn the risk that went wrong; and towards providing better rewards to those who harness the new ideas that are ultimately translated into employment. I think that that captures the spirit of the Conservative amendment. I have no hesitation in saying that entrepreneurship is a key issue for Scotland. We must build a national mood that values modernisation, seeks success and is confident and always aspirational. So what do we need to do to accelerate the modernisation of the Scottish economy? First— and I hope that there is complete agreement on this—we must raise productivity across all sectors. We must build what has become known as a knowledge economy where we compete with the world on the basis of knowledge, ideas and innovation. We are currently drawing up an agenda for the new knowledge economy task force, which will help me to prepare further work plans early next year focusing on the key themes of business innovation and skills. Secondly, we need to adopt a strategic approach. Tinkering simply will not be good enough. We need a coherent, comprehensive approach to the economy. That is why we are looking at manufacturing, tourism, the commercialisation of science, skills development and small businesses, because small firms are crucial to the Scottish economy. In that way we aim to bring all of that work together in the overall economic framework that I mentioned earlier, but we must also recognise the importance of modernising our transport, telecommunications and educational infrastructure.", "EditedTextHTML": "The latter comment on the impact on exports is simply untrue—the volume of exports in the second quarter of 1999 is up by 6.4 per cent. That suggests to me that rather than bemoaning the conditions that beset the economy, our exporters are working very hard to ensure that they win exports and prosperity and, more important, keep jobs throughout Scotland. Calculations based on the fantasy figures that Alex Neil has used produce fantasy results. The pre- budget report identified the key areas that will help us win success. No one in this Parliament should be decrying the chancellor's right to do that in the interests of the UK and Scotland.

The Scottish Parliament can help to fine tune our resources to fit the needs of Scotland, and it is helping to bring about a new confidence in our ability to determine our economic future. New models of working with business are taking shape.

That must be set in the context of the economic framework that is being developed by the Scottish Executive under the direction of the chief economic adviser, Dr Andrew Goudie. The framework looks at how economic progress can be accelerated while meeting our commitments on social justice and the environment. We are beginning a major process of consultation and I encourage members who would like to participate in this effort to make contact with Dr Goudie, who will be happy to meet them. I add, for John Swinney's benefit, that we want to have serious discussions on the new framework with the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee.

Companies must tap into the latest ideas and markets and produce innovative products for them. That is what greater entrepreneurship is about. It is a risky process; it requires vision and courage to enter new markets, which may not in the short term produce the returns that the company would like. It is instructive that many of the new, highly valued, internet-based companies have yet to produce a profit. The UK generally lags behind our main rivals in this kind of entrepreneurship, but there are some very good role models. In recent years, huge successes have been chalked up in telecommunications, the utilities, financial services and transportation. We need to tilt the balance towards risk taking so that we are more often the first to benefit from new trends. We need a cultural shift towards greater acknowledgement of risk takers and the economic benefits that they can bring; towards not always rushing to condemn the risk that went wrong; and towards providing better rewards to those who harness the new ideas that are ultimately translated into employment. I think that that captures the spirit of the Conservative amendment. I have no hesitation in saying that entrepreneurship is a key issue for Scotland. We must build a national mood that values modernisation, seeks success and is confident and always aspirational.

So what do we need to do to accelerate the modernisation of the Scottish economy? First— and I hope that there is complete agreement on this—we must raise productivity across all sectors. We must build what has become known as a knowledge economy where we compete with the world on the basis of knowledge, ideas and innovation. We are currently drawing up an agenda for the new knowledge economy task force, which will help me to prepare further work plans early next year focusing on the key themes of business innovation and skills.

Secondly, we need to adopt a strategic approach. Tinkering simply will not be good enough. We need a coherent, comprehensive approach to the economy. That is why we are looking at manufacturing, tourism, the commercialisation of science, skills development and small businesses, because small firms are crucial to the Scottish economy. In that way we aim to bring all of that work together in the overall economic framework that I mentioned earlier, but we must also recognise the importance of modernising our transport, telecommunications and educational infrastructure.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C711757", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 111.0, "ContributionID": 711757, "EditedText": "I thought that flattery might help my chances of being allowed to intervene. Does Miss Goldie agree that new Labour's credentials in supporting big business are impeccable, given that the rate of corporate taxation in Britain is lower than in any other European country?", "EditedTextHTML": "I thought that flattery might help my chances of being allowed to intervene.

Does Miss Goldie agree that new Labour's credentials in supporting big business are impeccable, given that the rate of corporate taxation in Britain is lower than in any other European country?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C711744", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 83.0, "ContributionID": 711744, "EditedText": "I am pleased to say that I was in Inverness yesterday having discussions with Inverness College and the University of the Highlands and Islands. Tremendous progress is being made in developing the programme. I am pleased to say that a number of courses have been approved, and more are in the pipeline. I would be happy to give Margaret Ewing an update on my visit. Fifthly, we must embrace new technologies. It is all too easy to be overwhelmed by technological advances. It is even easier simply to ignore everything that is going on, or to decide \"it's not for me\". That is the way to economic ruin. We must embrace new technologies, such as e-commerce and biotechnology. All Scottish companies must be alive to the opportunities that exist and, even more important, to the threats that they present if competitors steal a march. We must empower ourselves to compete with the best in the world. The new economy must be based on an inclusive approach. We will be able to make progress in Scotland if we focus our social inclusion strategy alongside our new economy proposals. Through new deal and area-based strategies we must stamp out the inequalities caused by deprivation and poverty. Access to jobs and education is the long-term key to solving those problems, and the Executive is committed to tackling them. Unemployment is a subject that has raged in debate for nearly a century. Today, the rate of unemployment, as measured by the International Labour Organisation, which was over 15 per cent in 1984, is 7 per cent on a seasonally adjusted basis. The rate has halved, but it is still too high. The seasonally adjusted claimant count of 5.2 per cent is the lowest rate since 1976. Reforms since 1997 have cut numbers in the youth and long-term unemployment new deal target groups in Scotland by 58 per cent and 36 per cent respectively. This is a wonderful opportunity for the country. The Chancellor of the Exchequer referred to it in his statement on the pre-budget report last week. For the first time in the past quarter of a century we have the prospect of employment opportunity for all, based on a clear definition of rights and responsibilities. Unemployment rates are the lowest for a generation, but we can do much better. Measured unemployment in the 1950s and 1960s was always below 5 per cent. Indeed, it was below 3 per cent in some years. Even after allowing for changes in definition and other statistical health warnings, it is clear that there is further scope for employment in Scotland to rise and for unemployment to fall. The Scottish Executive's policies on the modernisation of the economy will help to take us in that direction. Much activity is under way, but we are far from complacent. We must identify new ways of improving our productivity and competitiveness. Today, therefore, I am announcing our intention to identify and help develop centres of excellence for the industries of tomorrow. We already have a number of emerging centres of excellence, such as Prestwick for aerospace and Livingston for semiconductor research. Those centres not only provide local employment, but represent best practice in collaboration between companies, education institutions and the public sector. They have the potential to be important not only to the local economy, but to the Scottish and UK economies. Over the coming months, we will identify further opportunities for developing centres of excellence. I can confirm press speculation from earlier this week that the Executive is working closely with interested bodies to develop a centre for engineering excellence at Rosyth. I hope to be able to announce more details on that matter early next month. We want to create a truly modern economy that also promises full employment. We will need to ensure that the transition is handled sensitively and positively. People must be helped to find new jobs and skills. There is a crucial role for the Executive and for all of the economic agencies. It is in the nature of change in the global economy that there will be gains and losses. The task for Government and business is to be smart and focused and to use change to our national advantage. If we do that, there is no reason why full employment should not be possible. That is a sensible objective, and I look for the support of the Parliament in achieving it. I look forward to the debate. I move,That the Parliament acknowledges the very real progress being made to prepare the Scottish economy for the next century, but recognises the growing global competitive pressures it faces, that as a result modernisation of every sector of the Scottish economy will need to be accelerated and that public support is best targeted on initiatives which encourage modernisation.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am pleased to say that I was in Inverness yesterday having discussions with Inverness College and the University of the Highlands and Islands. Tremendous progress is being made in developing the programme. I am pleased to say that a number of courses have been approved, and more are in the pipeline. I would be happy to give Margaret Ewing an update on my visit.

Fifthly, we must embrace new technologies. It is all too easy to be overwhelmed by technological advances. It is even easier simply to ignore everything that is going on, or to decide \"it's not for me\". That is the way to economic ruin. We must embrace new technologies, such as e-commerce and biotechnology. All Scottish companies must be alive to the opportunities that exist and, even more important, to the threats that they present if competitors steal a march. We must empower ourselves to compete with the best in the world.

The new economy must be based on an inclusive approach. We will be able to make progress in Scotland if we focus our social inclusion strategy alongside our new economy proposals. Through new deal and area-based strategies we must stamp out the inequalities caused by deprivation and poverty. Access to jobs and education is the long-term key to solving those problems, and the Executive is committed to tackling them.

Unemployment is a subject that has raged in debate for nearly a century. Today, the rate of unemployment, as measured by the International Labour Organisation, which was over 15 per cent in 1984, is 7 per cent on a seasonally adjusted basis. The rate has halved, but it is still too high.

The seasonally adjusted claimant count of 5.2 per cent is the lowest rate since 1976. Reforms since 1997 have cut numbers in the youth and long-term unemployment new deal target groups in Scotland by 58 per cent and 36 per cent respectively. This is a wonderful opportunity for the country. The Chancellor of the Exchequer referred to it in his statement on the pre-budget report last week. For the first time in the past quarter of a century we have the prospect of employment opportunity for all, based on a clear definition of rights and responsibilities.

Unemployment rates are the lowest for a generation, but we can do much better. Measured unemployment in the 1950s and 1960s was always below 5 per cent. Indeed, it was below 3 per cent in some years. Even after allowing for changes in definition and other statistical health warnings, it is clear that there is further scope for employment in Scotland to rise and for unemployment to fall. The Scottish Executive's policies on the modernisation of the economy will help to take us in that direction.

Much activity is under way, but we are far from complacent. We must identify new ways of improving our productivity and competitiveness. Today, therefore, I am announcing our intention to identify and help develop centres of excellence for the industries of tomorrow. We already have a number of emerging centres of excellence, such as Prestwick for aerospace and Livingston for semiconductor research. Those centres not only provide local employment, but represent best practice in collaboration between companies, education institutions and the public sector. They have the potential to be important not only to the local economy, but to the Scottish and UK economies.

Over the coming months, we will identify further opportunities for developing centres of excellence. I can confirm press speculation from earlier this week that the Executive is working closely with interested bodies to develop a centre for engineering excellence at Rosyth. I hope to be able to announce more details on that matter early next month.

We want to create a truly modern economy that also promises full employment. We will need to ensure that the transition is handled sensitively and positively. People must be helped to find new jobs and skills. There is a crucial role for the Executive and for all of the economic agencies. It is in the nature of change in the global economy that there will be gains and losses. The task for Government and business is to be smart and focused and to use change to our national advantage. If we do that, there is no reason why full employment should not be possible. That is a sensible objective, and I look for the support of the

Parliament in achieving it. I look forward to the debate.

I move,

That the Parliament acknowledges the very real progress being made to prepare the Scottish economy for the next century, but recognises the growing global competitive pressures it faces, that as a result modernisation of every sector of the Scottish economy will need to be accelerated and that public support is best targeted on initiatives which encourage modernisation.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C711750", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 96.0, "ContributionID": 711750, "EditedText": "He has nothing else to do.", "EditedTextHTML": "He has nothing else to do.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C711754", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Goldie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 105.0, "ContributionID": 711754, "EditedText": "I get the feeling that Mr Wilson sees only the sweeties in the jar while I see their cost. My concern is that he talks about the merits of independence and ignores the possible disadvantages. We will never agree on the matter. I have confidence in the structure of the United Kingdom and I am in no doubt that it has brought immense trading advantages to Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "I get the feeling that Mr Wilson sees only the sweeties in the jar while I see their cost. My concern is that he talks about the merits of independence and ignores the possible disadvantages. We will never agree on the matter. I have confidence in the structure of the United Kingdom and I am in no doubt that it has brought immense trading advantages to Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C711762", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Goldie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 121.0, "ContributionID": 711762, "EditedText": "He has tried in the past, but to no avail. An Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development report published on 3 November shows that Britain has the fastest-rising tax burden in Europe. The tax burden is rising 30 times faster than that of France and 10 times faster than that of Belgium. We pay more tax than Ireland, Spain, Portugal, America and Japan. For the first time in a generation, we are paying more tax than Germany. I do not list those statistics as a sterile litany of criticism of the Labour Government. I state them as evidence of the chilling reality of the situation. They are indicative of precisely the climate that business does not need. In relation to the motion, I suggest that careful note should be taken of the level of taxation. If I find an unlikely ally in Mr Sheridan, I find an even more improbable one in Mr Livingstone, who, on 7 November, was honest enough to say \"we haven't increased the standard rate, but we have increased a lot of other taxes . . . we have done it with all these stealth taxes. I just think it would have been better to have honestly told people beforehand\". The fact of increased taxation is without dispute.I have listed several areas in which the Government is impeding the growth of a healthy enterprise economy. However, this debate also provides an opportunity to think positively and adventurously. I hope that our amendment reflects that. We are considering the motion and the amendments against an alarming backdrop— given the wording of the Executive's motion, it is also a perverse backdrop. According to the Scottish new business statistics, published by Scottish Enterprise on 12 November, 5,064 businesses were started in Scotland during the second quarter of this year, which is a decline of 12.9 per cent from the second quarter of 1998.That is not the evidence that we want to have before us, but it leads to the text of our amendment, which is an attempt to broaden the debate and to make the phrase \"modernisation of the Scottish economy\" meaningful in the best sense. The key is an expansion of the Scottish enterprise base. We lag behind the rest of the UK in terms of business start-ups. It is difficult to procure data, but I have been able to secure some information that suggests that the ratio of Scotland's business birth rate to that of the UK average improved during the five years to 1997. Although I recognise that there has been a modest reduction in the gap between Scotland and the rest of the UK in terms of business births, I have a document that says that the data \"merely underlines what was said in the Business Birth Rate Strategy when it was originally published in 1993: that closing the gap with the rest of the UK in terms of new business starts is a long-term task, requiring sustained effort by many people and organisations.\" If asked about the most likely deterrent to the creation of a new business, any businessman will say that it is difficulty in securing finance. Scottish Enterprise says that \"the evidence certainly seems to suggest that problems in securing finance are seen as the biggest obstacle to start a business.\" It also says that\"making it easier for people to gain access to finance, helping people to understand more about how to go through the process, could have a significant impact on the number of businesses that are created.\" Access to finance is a problem that also dogs businesses that seek to expand. We need to encourage a change in lenders' attitudes from risk aversion—to which the minister referred—to an acceptance of risk as an investment. In Scotland, the trend is to leave as much risk as possible with the borrower. That contrasts sharply with attitudes in other countries, particularly the United States of America. It is time for the Government to engage in a dialogue with the enterprise agencies and Scotland's major lending institutions to consider ways of changing attitudes and transforming our economic culture to one in which failure is not a stigma. In the USA, failure is regarded as a sign of having tried; in Scotland, it is a stigma. Our culture must change so that risk assessment is seen as respectable economic judgment.", "EditedTextHTML": "He has tried in the past, but to no avail.

An Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development report published on 3 November shows that Britain has the fastest-rising tax burden in Europe. The tax burden is rising 30 times faster than that of France and 10 times faster than that of Belgium. We pay more tax than Ireland, Spain, Portugal, America and Japan. For the first time in a generation, we are paying more tax than Germany.

I do not list those statistics as a sterile litany of criticism of the Labour Government. I state them as evidence of the chilling reality of the situation. They are indicative of precisely the climate that business does not need. In relation to the motion, I suggest that careful note should be taken of the level of taxation.

If I find an unlikely ally in Mr Sheridan, I find an even more improbable one in Mr Livingstone, who, on 7 November, was honest enough to say

\"we haven't increased the standard rate, but we have increased a lot of other taxes . . . we have done it with all these stealth taxes. I just think it would have been better to have honestly told people beforehand\".

The fact of increased taxation is without dispute.

I have listed several areas in which the Government is impeding the growth of a healthy enterprise economy. However, this debate also provides an opportunity to think positively and adventurously. I hope that our amendment reflects that.

We are considering the motion and the amendments against an alarming backdrop— given the wording of the Executive's motion, it is also a perverse backdrop. According to the Scottish new business statistics, published by Scottish Enterprise on 12 November, 5,064 businesses were started in Scotland during the second quarter of this year, which is a decline of

12.9 per cent from the second quarter of 1998.

That is not the evidence that we want to have before us, but it leads to the text of our amendment, which is an attempt to broaden the debate and to make the phrase \"modernisation of the Scottish economy\" meaningful in the best sense.

The key is an expansion of the Scottish enterprise base. We lag behind the rest of the UK in terms of business start-ups. It is difficult to procure data, but I have been able to secure some information that suggests that the ratio of Scotland's business birth rate to that of the UK average improved during the five years to 1997. Although I recognise that there has been a modest reduction in the gap between Scotland and the rest of the UK in terms of business births, I have a document that says that the data

\"merely underlines what was said in the Business Birth Rate Strategy when it was originally published in 1993: that closing the gap with the rest of the UK in terms of new business starts is a long-term task, requiring sustained effort by many people and organisations.\"

If asked about the most likely deterrent to the creation of a new business, any businessman will say that it is difficulty in securing finance. Scottish Enterprise says that

\"the evidence certainly seems to suggest that problems in securing finance are seen as the biggest obstacle to start a business.\"

It also says that

\"making it easier for people to gain access to finance, helping people to understand more about how to go through the process, could have a significant impact on the number of businesses that are created.\"

Access to finance is a problem that also dogs businesses that seek to expand. We need to encourage a change in lenders' attitudes from risk aversion—to which the minister referred—to an acceptance of risk as an investment. In Scotland, the trend is to leave as much risk as possible with the borrower. That contrasts sharply with attitudes in other countries, particularly the United States of America.

It is time for the Government to engage in a dialogue with the enterprise agencies and Scotland's major lending institutions to consider ways of changing attitudes and transforming our economic culture to one in which failure is not a stigma. In the USA, failure is regarded as a sign of having tried; in Scotland, it is a stigma. Our culture must change so that risk assessment is seen as respectable economic judgment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C711764", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Goldie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 125.0, "ContributionID": 711764, "EditedText": "I cannot be seen to be bought by anyone. Sit down, Mr Gibson. I suggest that we widen the debate, with our colleagues in Westminster, to consider fiscal encouragement to allow prosperous businesses to invest in other businesses. In America, that is succeeding well, because the Americans have a far broader enterprise base than we do.", "EditedTextHTML": "I cannot be seen to be bought by anyone. Sit down, Mr Gibson.

I suggest that we widen the debate, with our colleagues in Westminster, to consider fiscal encouragement to allow prosperous businesses to invest in other businesses. In America, that is succeeding well, because the Americans have a far broader enterprise base than we do.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C711767", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 131.0, "ContributionID": 711767, "EditedText": "I wish to reinforce the point that Miss Goldie makes and to pose a question. Will she welcome the fact that Cyclacel in Dundee, which is working at the frontier of new technology in cancer treatment, received £4 million of its £8 million capital investment from Brian Souter and Ann Gloag? We want present Scottish success to invest in future Scottish success. Practical demonstrations of that illustrate the need for a change of culture.", "EditedTextHTML": "I wish to reinforce the point that Miss Goldie makes and to pose a question. Will she welcome the fact that Cyclacel in Dundee, which is working at the frontier of new technology in cancer treatment, received £4 million of its £8 million capital investment from Brian Souter and Ann Gloag? We want present Scottish success to invest in future Scottish success. Practical demonstrations of that illustrate the need for a change of culture.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2118E157P454C711770", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Quinan, Mr Lloyd", "ID": 2118, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lloyd Quinan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Lloyd Quinan (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 138.0, "ContributionID": 711770, "EditedText": "Does George Lyon agree that, far from being a peripheral economy on the edge of Europe, we are the largest energy producer in the European Union?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does George Lyon agree that, far from being a peripheral economy on the edge of Europe, we are the largest energy producer in the European Union?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C711780", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Patricia Ferguson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 158.0, "ContributionID": 711780, "EditedText": "We now move to the open part of this debate. I ask members to keep their speeches to four minutes or less.", "EditedTextHTML": "We now move to the open part of this debate. I ask members to keep their speeches to four minutes or less.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C711784", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 167.0, "ContributionID": 711784, "EditedText": "Will you wind up please, Mr McAllion?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will you wind up please, Mr McAllion?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2090E83P266C711787", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAllion, Mr John", "ID": 2090, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dundee East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John McAllion", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McAllion: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 173.0, "ContributionID": 711787, "EditedText": "I have been listening to all those long speeches and began to think that I had the same time, but that is not the case. Let us think about ordinary working people. They are not benefiting from modernisation; until they do, our modernisation is not good enough.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have been listening to all those long speeches and began to think that I had the same time, but that is not the case.

Let us think about ordinary working people. They are not benefiting from modernisation; until they do, our modernisation is not good enough.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2152E53P75C711791", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnston, Nick", "ID": 2152, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nick Johnston", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Nick Johnston (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 185.0, "ContributionID": 711791, "EditedText": "Like John Swinney, I was astounded to be told at a recent meeting of the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee that Scotland has no national strategy. That view was also expressed recently by Ray Perman, chief executive of Scottish Financial Enterprise. He attacked the Government for failing to consult business on its national economic strategy. I am always reluctant to criticise Mr McLeish— who I am sorry is not here—because to berate someone who oozes such good intentions seems somewhat churlish. However, I remind him that he is not a builder of roads to Hades, but the enterprise minister, and Scotland's economy needs more than good intent. I welcome Mr McLeish's acknowledgement of the long haul that we face in Scotland, but surely the biggest hurdle to building an enterprise Scotland is the failure of Labour's education system to teach our young people to read and write. If we cannot teach children to read and write, what hope do we have of creating a knowledge economy? As a first step, the minister should take Scotland's excuse for an education minister by the throat and demand that he create a climate in schools where basic learning is reestablished as a priority. Perhaps then Mr McLeish would not have to face the unpalatable fact that Labour's new deal is failing miserably. He mentioned Labour's plans for job creation, but new deal is simply not working. It is failing 60 per cent of its participants, and only 7,000 of the 16,000 who have left new deal have gained full-time jobs. Recent research suggests that a large proportion of those people would have found their jobs without new deal anyway. Over a quarter of new deal successes are now back on the dole. Perhaps when he sums up, the deputy minister will tell us how many young people are still in gateway after six months. We in the Conservative party believe that the best way forward is to provide young people with real experience, and we believe that business and industry—and not whatever approach the Government believes to be in vogue—are best placed to provide such experience. That is why we propose that all 16 to 18-year-old school leavers should be given access to a training apprenticeship through training vouchers that they can present to an employer or training provider of their choice. That would include the traditional apprenticeships such as those in the building trades, engineering and the sunrise industries. I would like to talk about business start-ups. Research on business creation suggests that the low start-up rate in Scotland is accounted for by low rates of home ownership, low presence of professional and managerial skills, and population loss. Scottish individuals are less likely to be interested in forming their own firms and have greater difficulties in translating interest into action. That is mainly because of lower interest among Scottish women. It is interesting that in the United Kingdom, 33 per cent of business start-ups are by women, while in Scotland the figure is only 24 per cent. It is also interesting that in America 38 per cent of private companies are owned by women. In Scotland, there seems to be a greater desire for job security, and an aversion to taking risks by individuals and by the private sector. There is a belief that family life will suffer as a result of becoming self-employed. Scottish companies have failed to develop an innovation culture, and are much less willing— compared with the rest of the UK and with Ireland—to undertake research and development, to formalise the innovation process, and to involve key employee groups. However, we have a blueprint for the regeneration of Scotland. We should be encouraging entrepreneurial skills at school by appointing a dominie of entrepreneurship in every school. Furthermore, there should be classes in true-life business studies, and schools should be allowed to compete in running a profitable company with the incentive of a major reward at the end of the exercise. We need a lower-value pound and incentives for start-up companies and companies in depressed areas. Furthermore, we need a lower fuel tax; a restructuring of local enterprise companies and training companies; less bureaucracy and planning; more ferry traffic between Scotland and the continent; and the strengthening and promotion of business tourism. Fine words, computers and fine words do not create jobs; people do that. The main thrust of Scotland's economic regeneration must be encouraging people to create jobs, not just by the creation of new businesses, but by the encouragement of existing businesses—", "EditedTextHTML": "Like John Swinney, I was astounded to be told at a recent meeting of the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee that Scotland has no national strategy. That view was also expressed recently by Ray Perman, chief executive of Scottish Financial Enterprise. He attacked the Government for failing to consult business on its national economic strategy.

I am always reluctant to criticise Mr McLeish— who I am sorry is not here—because to berate someone who oozes such good intentions seems somewhat churlish. However, I remind him that he is not a builder of roads to Hades, but the enterprise minister, and Scotland's economy needs more than good intent.

I welcome Mr McLeish's acknowledgement of the long haul that we face in Scotland, but surely the biggest hurdle to building an enterprise Scotland is the failure of Labour's education system to teach our young people to read and write. If we cannot teach children to read and write, what hope do we have of creating a knowledge economy? As a first step, the minister should take Scotland's excuse for an education minister by the throat and demand that he create a climate in schools where basic learning is reestablished as a priority.

Perhaps then Mr McLeish would not have to face the unpalatable fact that Labour's new deal is failing miserably. He mentioned Labour's plans for job creation, but new deal is simply not working. It is failing 60 per cent of its participants, and only 7,000 of the 16,000 who have left new deal have gained full-time jobs. Recent research suggests that a large proportion of those people would have found their jobs without new deal anyway. Over a quarter of new deal successes are now back on the dole.

Perhaps when he sums up, the deputy minister will tell us how many young people are still in gateway after six months. We in the Conservative party believe that the best way forward is to provide young people with real experience, and we believe that business and industry—and not whatever approach the Government believes to be in vogue—are best placed to provide such experience. That is why we propose that all 16 to 18-year-old school leavers should be given access to a training apprenticeship through training vouchers that they can present to an employer or training provider of their choice. That would include the traditional apprenticeships such as those in the building trades, engineering and the sunrise industries.

I would like to talk about business start-ups. Research on business creation suggests that the

low start-up rate in Scotland is accounted for by low rates of home ownership, low presence of professional and managerial skills, and population loss. Scottish individuals are less likely to be interested in forming their own firms and have greater difficulties in translating interest into action. That is mainly because of lower interest among Scottish women. It is interesting that in the United Kingdom, 33 per cent of business start-ups are by women, while in Scotland the figure is only 24 per cent. It is also interesting that in America 38 per cent of private companies are owned by women.

In Scotland, there seems to be a greater desire for job security, and an aversion to taking risks by individuals and by the private sector. There is a belief that family life will suffer as a result of becoming self-employed.

Scottish companies have failed to develop an innovation culture, and are much less willing— compared with the rest of the UK and with Ireland—to undertake research and development, to formalise the innovation process, and to involve key employee groups. However, we have a blueprint for the regeneration of Scotland. We should be encouraging entrepreneurial skills at school by appointing a dominie of entrepreneurship in every school. Furthermore, there should be classes in true-life business studies, and schools should be allowed to compete in running a profitable company with the incentive of a major reward at the end of the exercise.

We need a lower-value pound and incentives for start-up companies and companies in depressed areas. Furthermore, we need a lower fuel tax; a restructuring of local enterprise companies and training companies; less bureaucracy and planning; more ferry traffic between Scotland and the continent; and the strengthening and promotion of business tourism.

Fine words, computers and fine words do not create jobs; people do that. The main thrust of Scotland's economic regeneration must be encouraging people to create jobs, not just by the creation of new businesses, but by the encouragement of existing businesses—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C711792", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bruce Crawford (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP) rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 187.0, "ContributionID": 711792, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1752E75P296C711794", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jamieson, Cathy", "ID": 1752, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Cathy Jamieson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Cathy Jamieson (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 192.0, "ContributionID": 711794, "EditedText": "I disagree with Lloyd Quinan's comment that there was nothing for ordinary working people in the minister's statement. Although I have reservations about some of the proposals, the clearest message from the minister was his commitment to creating employment and that our ultimate aim is full employment. That is the best message to give my constituents, who live in an area with one of the highest levels of unemployment in the UK. I know that Henry McLeish has a great interest in my area, because he recently opened a new initiative in Girvan, which has persistently high unemployment. He spoke to people in the town and was concerned to take things forward. Furthermore, I welcome the success of various initiatives that have brought new jobs into communities. I also welcome the motion's recognition of the difficulties of the global competitive economy and the pressures that they create in Scotland. I have already raised that issue in several parliamentary debates on the manufacturing sector, on our relationship with the European Community and on regional selective assistance. Although we need to modernise the economy by bringing in new industries, I share some of John McAllion's reservations. As I am a member of the Transport and General Workers Union, I do not need lessons from any member from any political party about what is happening in, for example, the textile industry in my area. Some of the manufacturers and high street stores are opting to sell cheap imports from countries with working conditions and pay that would not be tolerated here. The factories and work forces that have been affected have attempted to modernise by changing working practices and shift patterns. In some painful instances, the trade unions have been involved in discussions that have led to people taking redundancy to allow companies to survive. I can give chapter and verse of examples of that in Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley. The problem is that people do not necessarily receive any thanks for taking redundancy. The Christmas present for workers in one factory in my area might be their redundancy notice if there are no other orders. There are problems with the coal industry, another of the indigenous industries in Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley. There is a particular difficulty with transporting coal. Members will be aware of the phrase, \"coals to Newcastle\". At the moment, coal is being stockpiled in the Ayrshire coalfields because cheap, imported coal is being used at Hunterston power station and at other places. For a number of reasons, we cannot implement our policy of getting coal and other freight off the road and on to rail. Murray Tosh is right to say that we need to re-examine the transport infrastructure, although I might disagree with his proposals. If we are to compete in the global economy, areas such as Ayrshire will need to formulate plans to build on improvements that have already been announced by the Executive. Although the upgrading of the A77 will be a huge boost to the area, the A70 and other routes also need to be considered. We must build on our commitment to reduce the amount of heavy goods on the road. Although I welcome the £2.5 million investment in a new railhead near New Cumnock that Sarah Boyack announced not so long ago in my constituency, such investment will not help if companies such as English Welsh & Scottish Railway do not have the rolling stock and Railtrack cannot shift the freight. The problem raises a number of issues that we have to address. There are some initiatives in my area that we should be progressing, particularly the Ayrshire electronic community project, which is based in Cumnock with links to other parts of Ayrshire. The other night in Cumnock, I spoke to a group of women whose families have been affected by drug abuse and drug problems. I asked them to tell me the most important thing that the Scottish Parliament could do to help them. Their answer was, \"Give us jobs and give us some hope.\" The minister's statement gives us that hope, and I look forward to working with him.", "EditedTextHTML": "I disagree with Lloyd Quinan's comment that there was nothing for ordinary working people in the minister's statement. Although I have reservations about some of the proposals, the clearest message from the minister was his commitment to creating employment and that our ultimate aim is full employment. That is the best message to give my constituents, who live in an area with one of the highest levels of unemployment in the UK.

I know that Henry McLeish has a great interest in my area, because he recently opened a new initiative in Girvan, which has persistently high unemployment. He spoke to people in the town and was concerned to take things forward.

Furthermore, I welcome the success of various initiatives that have brought new jobs into communities. I also welcome the motion's recognition of the difficulties of the global competitive economy and the pressures that they create in Scotland. I have already raised that issue in several parliamentary debates on the manufacturing sector, on our relationship with the European Community and on regional selective assistance.

Although we need to modernise the economy by bringing in new industries, I share some of John McAllion's reservations. As I am a member of the Transport and General Workers Union, I do not need lessons from any member from any political party about what is happening in, for example, the textile industry in my area. Some of the manufacturers and high street stores are opting to sell cheap imports from countries with working conditions and pay that would not be tolerated here.

The factories and work forces that have been affected have attempted to modernise by changing working practices and shift patterns. In some painful instances, the trade unions have been involved in discussions that have led to people taking redundancy to allow companies to survive. I can give chapter and verse of examples of that in Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley. The problem is that people do not necessarily receive any thanks for taking redundancy. The Christmas present for workers in one factory in my area might be their redundancy notice if there are no other orders.

There are problems with the coal industry, another of the indigenous industries in Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley. There is a particular difficulty with transporting coal. Members will be aware of the phrase, \"coals to Newcastle\". At the moment, coal is being stockpiled in the Ayrshire coalfields because cheap, imported coal is being

used at Hunterston power station and at other places. For a number of reasons, we cannot implement our policy of getting coal and other freight off the road and on to rail.

Murray Tosh is right to say that we need to re-examine the transport infrastructure, although I might disagree with his proposals. If we are to compete in the global economy, areas such as Ayrshire will need to formulate plans to build on improvements that have already been announced by the Executive. Although the upgrading of the A77 will be a huge boost to the area, the A70 and other routes also need to be considered. We must build on our commitment to reduce the amount of heavy goods on the road.

Although I welcome the £2.5 million investment in a new railhead near New Cumnock that Sarah Boyack announced not so long ago in my constituency, such investment will not help if companies such as English Welsh & Scottish Railway do not have the rolling stock and Railtrack cannot shift the freight. The problem raises a number of issues that we have to address.

There are some initiatives in my area that we should be progressing, particularly the Ayrshire electronic community project, which is based in Cumnock with links to other parts of Ayrshire.

The other night in Cumnock, I spoke to a group of women whose families have been affected by drug abuse and drug problems. I asked them to tell me the most important thing that the Scottish Parliament could do to help them. Their answer was, \"Give us jobs and give us some hope.\" The minister's statement gives us that hope, and I look forward to working with him.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C711795", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Keith Raffan (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 195.0, "ContributionID": 711795, "EditedText": "Two sets of statistics have rightly dominated this debate. The first concerns business start-ups. In Scotland, there are 1.7 business start-ups per 100 businesses; in the UK, there are 3.4 per 100; in the US, 6.9 per 100. The second set of statistics shows that research and development spending by Scottish businesses is less than half that of UK businesses. We must continue to improve our capacity to transform ideas into successful businesses. I know from his recent article in The Herald that Mr McLeish has recently returned from silicon valley and is firmly of that view. We must encourage and support our world-class research and develop the business application of ideas beyond the obvious existing examples. The Petroleum Science and Technology Institute in Aberdeen is a prime example of linking academia and the commercial sector. We also have the Dundee-Glasgow-Edinburgh biotech triangle. Might I add that I strongly support the plans for an applied research centre for biotechnology in Dundee to bridge the gap between the academic and commercial biotech sectors. Several Mid Scotland and Fife MSPs, including me, were extremely impressed when, recently, we visited the University of St Andrews for the day. Bruce Crawford, who also attended, will confirm that. We visited the physics, chemistry, marine biology and health care departments, and heard about the existing and potential commercial application of academic research. It was interesting to learn that, even though health care research has been developed to such a high level at St Andrews, the department has found more business outside the UK than within, even from within Scotland. Perhaps the minister could pass that information on to the Minister for Health and Community Care. We should be the customers of our own research establishments. Business schools have a crucial role to play in transforming ideas from a research and development base into successful businesses. However, nine of the top 10 business schools are in the US. I therefore welcome the UK Government's initiatives to establish links between British and French business schools and universities and the tie-up that Mr Swinney mentioned between the University of Cambridge's Judge Institute of Management Studies and the Massachusetts Institute of Technology's Sloane School. I believe that that is the way forward. For example, the London Business School has set up a business incubator unit, which is modelled on a similar unit at the University of California at Berkeley. The unit holds up to 12 companies for a year each. They come to the unit with a business idea that they develop into a business plan and for which they then try to obtain venture capital. As the companies are at different stages of development while they are in the unit, they are able to learn from one another. The incubator unit has also set up Sussex Place Investment Management Limited, which is a venture capital firm that manages funds for some of the bigger venture capital firms that do not traditionally invest in smaller businesses. We should investigate the potential application of such a model in Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "Two sets of statistics have rightly dominated this debate. The first concerns business start-ups. In Scotland, there are 1.7 business start-ups per 100 businesses; in the UK, there are 3.4 per 100; in the US, 6.9 per 100. The second set of statistics shows that research and development spending by Scottish businesses is less than half that of UK businesses. We must continue to improve our capacity to transform ideas into successful businesses. I know from his recent article in The Herald that Mr McLeish has recently returned from silicon valley and is firmly of that view.

We must encourage and support our world-class research and develop the business application of ideas beyond the obvious existing examples. The Petroleum Science and Technology Institute in Aberdeen is a prime example of linking academia and the commercial sector. We also have the Dundee-Glasgow-Edinburgh biotech triangle. Might I add that I strongly support the plans for an applied research centre for biotechnology in Dundee to bridge the gap between the academic and commercial biotech sectors.

Several Mid Scotland and Fife MSPs, including me, were extremely impressed when, recently, we visited the University of St Andrews for the day. Bruce Crawford, who also attended, will confirm that. We visited the physics, chemistry, marine biology and health care departments, and heard about the existing and potential commercial application of academic research. It was interesting to learn that, even though health care research has been developed to such a high level at St Andrews, the department has found more business outside the UK than within, even from within Scotland. Perhaps the minister could pass that information on to the Minister for Health and Community Care. We should be the customers of our own research establishments.

Business schools have a crucial role to play in transforming ideas from a research and development base into successful businesses. However, nine of the top 10 business schools are in the US. I therefore welcome the UK Government's initiatives to establish links between British and French business schools and universities and the tie-up that Mr Swinney mentioned between the University of Cambridge's Judge Institute of Management Studies and the Massachusetts Institute of Technology's Sloane School.

I believe that that is the way forward. For example, the London Business School has set up a business incubator unit, which is modelled on a similar unit at the University of California at Berkeley. The unit holds up to 12 companies for a year each. They come to the unit with a business idea that they develop into a business plan and for which they then try to obtain venture capital. As the companies are at different stages of development while they are in the unit, they are able to learn from one another. The incubator unit has also set up Sussex Place Investment Management Limited, which is a venture capital firm that manages funds for some of the bigger venture capital firms that do not traditionally invest in smaller businesses. We should investigate the potential application of such a model in Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2134E160P198C711802", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McMahon, Michael", "ID": 2134, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton North and Bellshill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael McMahon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McMahon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 210.0, "ContributionID": 711802, "EditedText": "We can argue about the statistics, but manufacturing is improving. The SNP does not want to see the improvements. The member can talk them down, but I want to talk up the good news in the economy. In the second quarter of 1999, the level of export sales in the manufacturing sector increased by 6.4 per cent in real terms compared with the previous four quarters. We have low and stable inflation— the lowest for 30 years. The retail prices index is low and has varied within a tight band of between 2.1 and 2.7 per cent during the past year. The story continues. Miss Goldie: Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "We can argue about the statistics, but manufacturing is improving. The SNP does not want to see the improvements. The member can talk them down, but I want to talk up the good news in the economy.

In the second quarter of 1999, the level of export sales in the manufacturing sector increased by 6.4 per cent in real terms compared with the previous four quarters. We have low and stable inflation— the lowest for 30 years. The retail prices index is low and has varied within a tight band of between

2.1 and 2.7 per cent during the past year. The story continues. Miss Goldie: Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C711804", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 214.0, "ContributionID": 711804, "EditedText": "I deplore the growing practice of members conducting private conversations during debates, especially when they turn their backs on the member who is speaking.", "EditedTextHTML": "I deplore the growing practice of members conducting private conversations during debates, especially when they turn their backs on the member who is speaking.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1926E190P479C711805", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Adam, Brian", "ID": 1926, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Adam", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Brian Adam (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 217.0, "ContributionID": 711805, "EditedText": "I want to talk about how we can reinforce the success of the Scottish economy. I will address myself to particular sectors, to one of which the minister has referred several times—the biotechnology sector. The minister mentioned two companies, Remedios in Aberdeen and Cyclacel in Dundee. Those companies are at the cutting edge of new technologies and should be encouraged, but is the minister aware that there are concerns about how to make the sector grow? One of the companies raised with me its concern that the problem in attracting similar companies to Scotland is not finding more money, but the fact that such companies must deal with a plethora of bureaucracy. I hope that Mr Stephen will give us some indication in his winding-up speech of how he intends to tackle the problem of firms that want to move to Scotland having to spend more time dealing with administration than getting on with setting up their business. I welcome the significant growth in the biotechnology sector. We want to create a climate in which not just the financial, but the administrative package that is offered means that Scotland is the first place to which any company wants to come. We must deal with the problems in that particular regard. I also want to mention the oil and gas industries, another major success. I note that in the last week, Mr Tony Mackay, one of our economists, said yet again that those industries have reached their peak and that we can look forward to the downturn. How many times have we heard that over the past decade or longer? Nevertheless, it is a sign of mature province that such comments are made regularly. We keep hearing calls to internationalise our industry. There are significant successes, but perhaps not nearly as many as we would like. I hope that the deputy minister will also advise us how the plan encourages the globalisation of our industry, and does not just concern other companies having success in the area. The skills associated with the oil and gas industry have great spin-off potential. We have seen that in the software industry, a large part of which, in the Aberdeen area, has spun off from the oil and gas industry. There is a significant potential there for growth, and for the skills associated with the oil and gas industry to be used in tackling environmental problems. There is also potential for those skills to be exported and for industries to grow from that.", "EditedTextHTML": "I want to talk about how we can reinforce the success of the Scottish economy. I will address myself to particular sectors, to one of which the minister has referred several times—the biotechnology sector. The minister mentioned two companies, Remedios in Aberdeen and Cyclacel in Dundee. Those companies are at the cutting edge of new technologies and should be encouraged, but is the minister aware that there are concerns about how to make the sector grow?

One of the companies raised with me its concern that the problem in attracting similar companies to Scotland is not finding more money, but the fact that such companies must deal with a plethora of bureaucracy. I hope that Mr Stephen will give us some indication in his winding-up speech of how he intends to tackle the problem of firms that want to move to Scotland having to spend more time dealing with administration than getting on with setting up their business. I welcome the significant growth in the biotechnology sector. We want to create a climate in which not just the financial, but the administrative package that is offered means that Scotland is the first place to which any company wants to come. We must deal with the problems in that particular regard.

I also want to mention the oil and gas industries, another major success. I note that in the last week, Mr Tony Mackay, one of our economists, said yet again that those industries have reached their peak and that we can look forward to the downturn. How many times have we heard that over the past decade or longer? Nevertheless, it is a sign of mature province that such comments are made regularly.

We keep hearing calls to internationalise our industry. There are significant successes, but perhaps not nearly as many as we would like. I hope that the deputy minister will also advise us how the plan encourages the globalisation of our industry, and does not just concern other companies having success in the area.

The skills associated with the oil and gas industry have great spin-off potential. We have seen that in the software industry, a large part of which, in the Aberdeen area, has spun off from the oil and gas industry. There is a significant potential there for growth, and for the skills associated with the oil and gas industry to be used in tackling

environmental problems. There is also potential for those skills to be exported and for industries to grow from that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1926E190P479C711807", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Adam, Brian", "ID": 1926, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Adam", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Brian Adam: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 221.0, "ContributionID": 711807, "EditedText": "I readily acknowledge that, and thank Mrs Ewing for her intervention. I want to develop the point about the considerable success of what is often seen as a staid industry: our financial sector. It is a great strength in the Scottish economy and provides a large number of jobs. But it is not a staid industry; it is a dynamic industry. There have been significant innovations in the sector in recent years, including Direct Line, link-ups with various supermarkets and even aggressive takeovers being considered. I ask the deputy minister to say how the Executive will encourage the financial sector to deal with the innovation of e-commerce and the potential offered by Europe, particularly with the changes in regulatory requirements.", "EditedTextHTML": "I readily acknowledge that, and thank Mrs Ewing for her intervention.

I want to develop the point about the considerable success of what is often seen as a staid industry: our financial sector. It is a great strength in the Scottish economy and provides a large number of jobs. But it is not a staid industry; it is a dynamic industry. There have been significant innovations in the sector in recent years, including Direct Line, link-ups with various supermarkets and even aggressive takeovers being considered. I ask the deputy minister to say how the Executive will encourage the financial sector to deal with the innovation of e-commerce and the potential offered by Europe, particularly with the changes in regulatory requirements.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C711808", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bruce Crawford (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP) rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 223.0, "ContributionID": 711808, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C711815", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 238.0, "ContributionID": 711815, "EditedText": "You have a minute and a half, Mr Scott.", "EditedTextHTML": "You have a minute and a half, Mr Scott.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C711819", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 246.0, "ContributionID": 711819, "EditedText": "Yes.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C711820", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 248.0, "ContributionID": 711820, "EditedText": "Your request is not showing on my screen.", "EditedTextHTML": "Your request is not showing on my screen.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C711828", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr David Davidson (North-East Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 265.0, "ContributionID": 711828, "EditedText": "That is very kind of you, Mr Reid. I welcome today's debate, but I am a little disappointed that we did not have this afternoon's debate on the digital Scotland initiative earlier, as it would have given a good lead to this debate. I have pleasure in supporting Miss Goldie's amendment. In doing so, I draw to the Parliament's attention the need for the Executive not only to recognise that we must urgently create a new culture of economic renewal, but to take positive action to achieve that. We are in initiative overload, and have been for some time. Many members have raised that point in this debate. We have heard the Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning state, rather cosily, in line with the Labour theme tune, that \"Things Can Only Get Better\". I did appreciate a breakthrough in something that he said today: that the Executive is at last prepared to address the issue of risk taking in our economy, which underpins our amendment this morning. I hope that, given Mr McLeish's kind comment to Miss Goldie, he will see fit to accept, on behalf of the Executive, the Conservative amendment as an addition to his motion. I will move on to visions and actions. We have had an awful lot of visions from the Executive to date but little in the way of action. Indeed, Mr McLeish talked about establishing an institute of enterprise some three years hence. Time is ticking by, as are lead-in times. Mr Swinney referred to 20 years-worth of Irish activity. Frankly, I do not think that we have 20 years for the Executive to come up with a game plan. Such a game plan will obviously be devised in partnership with others, but we must press on to try to get some focus. The rate of development of our Scottish economy is progressively falling behind that of the rest of the UK. While I have no wish to talk Scotland down, I will focus on the issues that we, in the Conservative party, believe are fundamental if we are to drive our economy into the global, modern age and if we are to be competitive in world terms. The Executive has a part to play in creating a climate within which Scottish business can grow. The areas of opportunity open to the Executive include a drastic reduction in the overregulation of business and a defence of business against the welter of European Union regulations, which absorb time and energy that would be better spent on growing businesses and creating jobs. That is particularly the case in the small and medium business sector. As Miss Goldie stated, we have had 2,500 new regulations in two and a half years of Blair. I presume that that will mean that we will get 1,000 a year from now. In the Conservative party's last period in Government, we disposed of 2,000 unnecessary regulations. I call on the Executive to consider doing the same. The Government must seek incentives to encourage risk taking through creative fiscal policy. If that means that we must send a message from this Parliament to Westminster, it should be a clear message that comes from across the parties that are represented here. We must recognise the damage caused by taxes, particularly those on fuel and road haulage. My colleague Murray Tosh, in his earlier intervention, tried to get across the point that we need to move the Scottish product. To do that, we need a proper road programme with better connections to other forms of transport such as rail and shipping. We also need to develop better public transport to allow the Scottish people to access new work opportunities that may not necessarily be located in the same centres that we have today. The secret of success in business start-up and growth is management of risk, not just by the entrepreneur, but by those who supply funding and support. Competitiveness is not just about production costs; it is about competitive advantage, product uniqueness, innovation and added value. Scotland has so many successes, some of which have been mentioned this morning and which we need to promote. Product development and support is a major issue. The minister talked of commercialisation. Fine, but when the universities seek additional funding, where does that funding come from? They find great difficulty in translating commercialisation into funding. I am afraid that Scotland is not grasping the marketing opportunities that we should be seeking. We live in a global economy and our businesses must be supported and nurtured from the early stages of formation through the critical growth stages that are required for them to be able to compete in the world market. I think that there are common views across the Parliament on that line. In the second quarter of 1999, new-start businesses were down 13 per cent—that is a matter of confidence. The personal enterprise shows and business shop networks produce evidence that an increasing number of people are willing to start up a business or to expand a business. The Executive must act as a midwife to the businesses of Scotland, which would be a good role to play. That is not a motherhood and apple pie notion, but a sentiment that comes across loud and clear from the people who are doing their best to start up businesses.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is very kind of you, Mr Reid. I welcome today's debate, but I am a little disappointed that we did not have this afternoon's debate on the digital Scotland initiative earlier, as it would have given a good lead to this debate.

I have pleasure in supporting Miss Goldie's amendment. In doing so, I draw to the Parliament's attention the need for the Executive not only to recognise that we must urgently create a new culture of economic renewal, but to take positive action to achieve that. We are in initiative overload, and have been for some time. Many members have raised that point in this debate.

We have heard the Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning state, rather cosily, in line with the Labour theme tune, that \"Things Can Only Get Better\". I did appreciate a breakthrough in something that he said today: that the Executive is at last prepared to address the issue of risk taking in our economy, which underpins our amendment this morning. I hope that, given Mr McLeish's kind comment to Miss Goldie, he will see fit to accept, on behalf of the Executive, the Conservative amendment as an addition to his motion.

I will move on to visions and actions. We have had an awful lot of visions from the Executive to date but little in the way of action. Indeed, Mr McLeish talked about establishing an institute of enterprise some three years hence. Time is ticking by, as are lead-in times. Mr Swinney referred to 20 years-worth of Irish activity. Frankly, I do not think that we have 20 years for the Executive to come up with a game plan. Such a game plan will obviously be devised in partnership with others, but we must press on to try to get some focus.

The rate of development of our Scottish economy is progressively falling behind that of the rest of the UK. While I have no wish to talk Scotland down, I will focus on the issues that we, in the Conservative party, believe are fundamental if we are to drive our economy into the global, modern age and if we are to be competitive in world terms. The Executive has a part to play in creating a climate within which Scottish business can grow. The areas of opportunity open to the Executive include a drastic reduction in the overregulation of business and a defence of business against the welter of European Union regulations, which absorb time and energy that would be better spent on growing businesses and creating jobs. That is particularly the case in the small and medium business sector.

As Miss Goldie stated, we have had 2,500 new regulations in two and a half years of Blair. I presume that that will mean that we will get 1,000 a year from now. In the Conservative party's last

period in Government, we disposed of 2,000 unnecessary regulations. I call on the Executive to consider doing the same.

The Government must seek incentives to encourage risk taking through creative fiscal policy. If that means that we must send a message from this Parliament to Westminster, it should be a clear message that comes from across the parties that are represented here. We must recognise the damage caused by taxes, particularly those on fuel and road haulage. My colleague Murray Tosh, in his earlier intervention, tried to get across the point that we need to move the Scottish product. To do that, we need a proper road programme with better connections to other forms of transport such as rail and shipping. We also need to develop better public transport to allow the Scottish people to access new work opportunities that may not necessarily be located in the same centres that we have today.

The secret of success in business start-up and growth is management of risk, not just by the entrepreneur, but by those who supply funding and support. Competitiveness is not just about production costs; it is about competitive advantage, product uniqueness, innovation and added value. Scotland has so many successes, some of which have been mentioned this morning and which we need to promote. Product development and support is a major issue. The minister talked of commercialisation. Fine, but when the universities seek additional funding, where does that funding come from? They find great difficulty in translating commercialisation into funding.

I am afraid that Scotland is not grasping the marketing opportunities that we should be seeking. We live in a global economy and our businesses must be supported and nurtured from the early stages of formation through the critical growth stages that are required for them to be able to compete in the world market. I think that there are common views across the Parliament on that line.

In the second quarter of 1999, new-start businesses were down 13 per cent—that is a matter of confidence. The personal enterprise shows and business shop networks produce evidence that an increasing number of people are willing to start up a business or to expand a business. The Executive must act as a midwife to the businesses of Scotland, which would be a good role to play. That is not a motherhood and apple pie notion, but a sentiment that comes across loud and clear from the people who are doing their best to start up businesses.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5607676+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C711831", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 271.0, "ContributionID": 711831, "EditedText": "I must ask you to be very brief for the sake of the two speakers who will follow you.", "EditedTextHTML": "I must ask you to be very brief for the sake of the two speakers who will follow you.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5607676+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1996E124P211C711837", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAveety, Mr Frank", "ID": 1996, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Shettleston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Local Government", "SpeakerName": "Frank McAveety", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Local Government (Mr Frank McAveety): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 284.0, "ContributionID": 711837, "EditedText": "Tautology?", "EditedTextHTML": "Tautology?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5607676+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C711838", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 286.0, "ContributionID": 711838, "EditedText": "Some politeness could perhaps break out there, Frank. I welcome the appointment of Dr Andrew Goudie as chief economist at the Scottish Executive. At least he is a man who has experience of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development and of what normal countries do. Perhaps, with his experience, he will be able to give some examples of what normal countries get up to in Europe and bring some understanding of the economy. The minister—he can intervene at this point, if he wishes—cannot tell us anything of substance about what goes on in the economy. There is nothing in terms of facts or figures—", "EditedTextHTML": "Some politeness could perhaps break out there, Frank.

I welcome the appointment of Dr Andrew Goudie as chief economist at the Scottish Executive. At least he is a man who has experience of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development and of what normal countries do. Perhaps, with his experience, he will be able to give some examples of what normal countries get up to in Europe and bring some understanding of the economy. The minister—he can intervene at this point, if he wishes—cannot tell us anything of substance about what goes on in the economy. There is nothing in terms of facts or figures—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5607676+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C711840", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 290.0, "ContributionID": 711840, "EditedText": "I will repeat the points that John made on the corporate tax environment, on research and development and on education, which are key points. I wish to make this point at the beginning of my speech: as an economic minister, Henry McLeish does not know, and cannot tell us, what we export, what we import, what we save, what we invest or what the value added in the economy is at this time. He has none of the information tools at his disposal and he shows no sense of urgency about—", "EditedTextHTML": "I will repeat the points that John made on the corporate tax environment, on research and development and on education, which are key points. I wish to make this point at the beginning of my speech: as an economic minister, Henry McLeish does not know, and cannot tell us, what we export, what we import, what we save, what we invest or what the value added in the economy is at this time. He has none of the information tools at his disposal and he shows no sense of urgency about—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5607676+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C711841", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 292.0, "ContributionID": 711841, "EditedText": "Rubbish.", "EditedTextHTML": "Rubbish.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5607676+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C711844", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 298.0, "ContributionID": 711844, "EditedText": "Those are quality-of-life issues that Henry McLeish must address as a minister. He has the choice of burying his head in the sand or facing modern realities. There is no sense of wealth spreading. I say to Mr McAllion that that is because we do not have the tools to deliver it within the devolution settlement. The key theme that the SNP wants to bring to this debate is that the will may be there on the part of many people in the Scottish Executive, but the tools are not. There is a role for supply-side measures, but we need the appropriate fiscal and macro-economic structures as well. I will offer an example to the minister so that he can reflect upon it. Everyone in this chamber agreed this morning that there is a need to promote export diversification. The fact of the matter is that the policy of high interest rates and a high pound exacerbates the problem of one or two sectors dominating the export market. For example, the electronics sector imports most of the inputs that it then manufactures and exports, so it is cushioned from the high pound. That makes it impossible for new firms and new sectors to enter the export market. When the minister reels off a load of misleading, volume-based export statistics, he should reflect on the fact that nothing in the Government's approach is helping to improve that situation. Indeed, he appears to be seeking to deny that it exists, which is all the more damning. As I said, Mr Swinney focused on three key initiatives: education; how to tackle retained value in earning for investment; and research and development. It would be interesting if Nicol Stephen, when he sums up, could provide a view of the Government's position on those issues. Education is key. Everyone agrees with that. Why, then, is the Government investing less of the nation's wealth in education than at any point in the last quarter of a century? That fact must be addressed. On retained earnings, our key point draws on European examples such as Austria and Ireland, as John Swinney said. It may be news on the Conservative benches, but the SNP has been advocating that approach for some years—the tools of a normal country would be at our disposal if we had the same status as a normal country. However, we do not. The key questions to ask are, \"Why not? Why reject it?\" I ask Miss Goldie why she has that romantic, misty-eyed attachment to the UK Parliament, when we could be getting on and doing the business for ourselves. Perhaps a little more hard-headed, rational analysis on what we could do for the economy would be useful. The Conservative spokesperson called for fiscal incentives to be used. Why go cap in hand to Westminster, when she could get on with the business of doing that here? That is the view of many senior Conservative members; it would be nice to hear it reflected in the chamber. John Swinney also made the key point that research and development investment is half of that of our competitors south of the border. What is the minister's strategy for tackling that? We have heard nothing about that. Japan is more peripheral to the European market than Scotland but has three times as much investment in R and D. We must address those key facts if we are to be serious about what we do. To improve investment in R and D, we have to use fiscal incentives, yet the Executive has none at its disposal. We will achieve an innovative policy only if we take the chance, as a small country, to do what small countries can do—to innovate and use the tools that are at our disposal. Nothing that we heard from the minister today will allow us to do that. The wider cultural issue of how to institute a sense of entrepreneurialism, or get up and go, in our economy and society has been raised. I offer a thought to the Conservatives, because it is a difficult one for policymakers to lay their hands on. Perhaps the fact that people in Scotland have been told for the past 30 years that they were too daft, poor and retarded to take decisions for themselves has instituted a feeling in Scottish culture of \"Why get up and go when someone else will do it for you?\" If, as we have been told, there is something odd about Scotland, that might constrain people's self-confidence and sense of enterprise. Perhaps the constitutional arguments should concentrate on what is positive and can be offered. What has been damaging is dependency culture.", "EditedTextHTML": "Those are quality-of-life issues that Henry McLeish must address as a minister. He has the choice of burying his head in the sand or facing modern realities. There is no sense of wealth spreading. I say to Mr McAllion that that is because we do not have the tools to deliver it within the devolution settlement. The key theme that the SNP wants to bring to this debate is that the will may be there on the part of many people in the Scottish Executive, but the tools are not. There is a role for supply-side measures, but we need the appropriate fiscal and macro-economic structures as well.

I will offer an example to the minister so that he can reflect upon it. Everyone in this chamber agreed this morning that there is a need to promote export diversification. The fact of the matter is that the policy of high interest rates and a high pound exacerbates the problem of one or two sectors dominating the export market. For example, the electronics sector imports most of the inputs that it then manufactures and exports, so it is cushioned from the high pound. That makes it impossible for new firms and new sectors to enter the export market. When the minister reels off a load of misleading, volume-based export statistics, he should reflect on the fact that nothing in the Government's approach is helping to improve that situation. Indeed, he appears to be seeking to deny that it exists, which is all the more damning.

As I said, Mr Swinney focused on three key initiatives: education; how to tackle retained value in earning for investment; and research and development. It would be interesting if Nicol Stephen, when he sums up, could provide a view of the Government's position on those issues. Education is key. Everyone agrees with that. Why, then, is the Government investing less of the nation's wealth in education than at any point in the last quarter of a century? That fact must be addressed.

On retained earnings, our key point draws on European examples such as Austria and Ireland, as John Swinney said. It may be news on the Conservative benches, but the SNP has been advocating that approach for some years—the tools of a normal country would be at our disposal if we had the same status as a normal country. However, we do not. The key questions to ask are, \"Why not? Why reject it?\" I ask Miss Goldie why she has that romantic, misty-eyed attachment to the UK Parliament, when we could be getting on and doing the business for ourselves. Perhaps a little more hard-headed, rational analysis on what we could do for the economy would be useful. The Conservative spokesperson called for fiscal incentives to be used. Why go cap in hand to Westminster, when she could get on with the business of doing that here? That is the view of many senior Conservative members; it would be nice to hear it reflected in the chamber.

John Swinney also made the key point that research and development investment is half of that of our competitors south of the border. What is the minister's strategy for tackling that? We have heard nothing about that. Japan is more peripheral to the European market than Scotland but has three times as much investment in R and

D. We must address those key facts if we are to be serious about what we do. To improve investment in R and D, we have to use fiscal incentives, yet the Executive has none at its disposal. We will achieve an innovative policy only if we take the chance, as a small country, to do what small countries can do—to innovate and use the tools that are at our disposal. Nothing that we heard from the minister today will allow us to do that.

The wider cultural issue of how to institute a sense of entrepreneurialism, or get up and go, in our economy and society has been raised. I offer a thought to the Conservatives, because it is a difficult one for policymakers to lay their hands on. Perhaps the fact that people in Scotland have been told for the past 30 years that they were too daft, poor and retarded to take decisions for themselves has instituted a feeling in Scottish culture of \"Why get up and go when someone else will do it for you?\" If, as we have been told, there is something odd about Scotland, that might constrain people's self-confidence and sense of enterprise. Perhaps the constitutional arguments should concentrate on what is positive and can be offered. What has been damaging is dependency culture.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5607676+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2154E194P299C711845", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stephen, Nicol", "ID": 2154, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Nicol Stephen", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning (Nicol Stephen): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 301.0, "ContributionID": 711845, "EditedText": "I will move on quickly from some of Andrew Wilson's more extreme comments and start on a positive note. Of course we are in a period of accelerating progress and change. Our task will be constant; it will not be a question of catching up and, one day, succeeding. There is much to do and that will never change. However, we are ahead of the field in areas such as biotechnology, with companies such as Cyclacel, Quintiles and Scotia Pharmaceuticals, which this week received an important US drugs approval. We also have PPL Therapeutics. In semiconductor design, we have Project Alba, with Cadence and now Epson, which will open next month. Job gains currently outweigh job losses. New jobs, increasingly, are being found in modern service and high-tech industries. We are making good progress in expanding sectors, which use the latest in communications technology. The digital revolution is very much part of Scotland. Glasgow, with more than 10,000 call centre jobs, is one of the European centres for that sector. Financial services, software development—", "EditedTextHTML": "I will move on quickly from some of Andrew Wilson's more extreme comments and start on a positive note.

Of course we are in a period of accelerating progress and change. Our task will be constant; it will not be a question of catching up and, one day, succeeding. There is much to do and that will never change. However, we are ahead of the field in areas such as biotechnology, with companies such as Cyclacel, Quintiles and Scotia Pharmaceuticals, which this week received an important US drugs approval. We also have PPL Therapeutics. In semiconductor design, we have Project Alba, with Cadence and now Epson, which will open next month. Job gains currently outweigh job losses. New jobs, increasingly, are being found in modern service and high-tech industries.

We are making good progress in expanding sectors, which use the latest in communications technology. The digital revolution is very much part of Scotland. Glasgow, with more than 10,000 call centre jobs, is one of the European centres for that sector. Financial services, software development—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5607676+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2154E194P299C711850", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stephen, Nicol", "ID": 2154, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Nicol Stephen", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicol Stephen: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 311.0, "ContributionID": 711850, "EditedText": "I will give way now.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will give way now.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5607676+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C711851", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 313.0, "ContributionID": 711851, "EditedText": "Brian Monteith. No, I am sorry. Murray Tosh.", "EditedTextHTML": "Brian Monteith. No, I am sorry. Murray Tosh.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5607676+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2154E194P299C711855", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stephen, Nicol", "ID": 2154, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Nicol Stephen", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicol Stephen: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 321.0, "ContributionID": 711855, "EditedText": "No, I want to finish my point. Annabel was factually inaccurate about the Scottish university for industry. Widespread consultation has taken place in Scotland with industry. Thousands of documents relating to that university have been circulated to our businesses and there will be continuing consultation—I give Annabel Goldie this guarantee—led by the university's new chief executive, Frank Pignatelli. Much was made of the changing economic culture. Annabel Goldie, Keith Raffan and David Davidson mentioned that that culture is essential if we are to create a more entrepreneurial spirit in Scotland. The Scottish Executive agrees with that. We agree that we must be more entrepreneurial and that the attitude to failure must change. More must be done in terms of business mentoring and business angels—large companies giving support to smaller ones. However, more risk taking is not just about individuals taking risk. It is about learning entrepreneurial, management and financial skills. Other nations, such as the United States, are passionate about management. Boston alone has the Harvard Business School, the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, the Sloane School of Management and the Media Lab. People in the United States care deeply, discuss a lot and are highly skilled and trained in entrepreneurial, financial and management pursuits. I am very pleased that there is an initiative to bring some of that to Gleneagles. More details of that will be announced in the coming weeks. Keith Raffan is absolutely right about the venture-capital community and our approach to management and risk taking. We have a great deal to learn. It is not all about heroic individuals. That links to another important point, made by George Lyon. He said that change would not come about by an edict of the Parliament. I absolutely agree with that. Companies such as Scottish Power are investing in individual learning accounts and the Government will support that. However, companies themselves must embrace the new approach to lifelong learning and skills. That is crucial. George Lyon mentioned that BP- Amoco is putting that at the centre of its strategy. In the small business sector, companies do not have the same scale of resources. The Scottish Executive is determined to give more support to that sector so that those companies can engage in that agenda.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I want to finish my point. Annabel was factually inaccurate about the Scottish university for industry. Widespread consultation has taken place in Scotland with industry. Thousands of documents relating to that university have been circulated to our businesses and there will be continuing consultation—I give

Annabel Goldie this guarantee—led by the university's new chief executive, Frank Pignatelli.

Much was made of the changing economic culture. Annabel Goldie, Keith Raffan and David Davidson mentioned that that culture is essential if we are to create a more entrepreneurial spirit in Scotland. The Scottish Executive agrees with that. We agree that we must be more entrepreneurial and that the attitude to failure must change. More must be done in terms of business mentoring and business angels—large companies giving support to smaller ones. However, more risk taking is not just about individuals taking risk. It is about learning entrepreneurial, management and financial skills.

Other nations, such as the United States, are passionate about management. Boston alone has the Harvard Business School, the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, the Sloane School of Management and the Media Lab. People in the United States care deeply, discuss a lot and are highly skilled and trained in entrepreneurial, financial and management pursuits. I am very pleased that there is an initiative to bring some of that to Gleneagles. More details of that will be announced in the coming weeks.

Keith Raffan is absolutely right about the venture-capital community and our approach to management and risk taking. We have a great deal to learn. It is not all about heroic individuals. That links to another important point, made by George Lyon. He said that change would not come about by an edict of the Parliament. I absolutely agree with that. Companies such as Scottish Power are investing in individual learning accounts and the Government will support that. However, companies themselves must embrace the new approach to lifelong learning and skills. That is crucial. George Lyon mentioned that BP- Amoco is putting that at the centre of its strategy. In the small business sector, companies do not have the same scale of resources. The Scottish Executive is determined to give more support to that sector so that those companies can engage in that agenda.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5607676+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C711861", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 333.0, "ContributionID": 711861, "EditedText": "I apologise, in that case, for my earlier intervention, but my console indicated that I had requested to speak. A number of my political opponents were even prepared to substantiate that. I will, therefore, not send to you the letter that I had written, which was extremely critical of you.", "EditedTextHTML": "I apologise, in that case, for my earlier intervention, but my console indicated that I had requested to speak. A number of my political opponents were even prepared to substantiate that. I will, therefore, not send to you the letter that I had written, which was extremely critical of you.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5607676+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2228E151P202C711863", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27071, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 335.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 335.0, "ID": 27071, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McCabe, Tom", "ID": 2228, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Tom McCabe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Parliament (Mr Tom McCabe): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 338.0, "ContributionID": 711863, "EditedText": "The motion is printed in today's bulletin. I would like to highlight that on Wednesday 24 November decision time has been moved to 5.30 pm. That is to facilitate an extended debate on land reform and is being done in response to requests made by members. As members will know, land reform is a very important issue and the bill will not be introduced to Parliament until next year. Members have not yet had an opportunity to discuss the issue, so I hope that members understand why decision time has been moved. I move,That the Parliament agrees the following programme of business— Wednesday 24 November 19992.30 pm Time for Reflection followed by Debate on an Executive motion on Social Inclusion Targets followed by, no Debate on an Executive motion later than 3.45 pm on Land Reformfollowed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions5.30 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business debate on the subject of S1M-250 Ms Irene Oldfather: Tobacco Sales to Under- Aged Children Thursday 25 November 19999.30 am Debate on a Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party motion followed by Business Motion followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions 2.30 pm Question Time 3.00 pm Open Question Time followed by, no Ministerial Statement on later than 3.15 pm Freedom of Informationfollowed by, no Debate on an Executive motion later than 3.45 pm on Carers' Strategy5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business debate on the subject of S1M-261 George Lyon: The Kintyre Economy Wednesday 1 December 19992.30 pm Time for Reflection followed by Parliamentary Bureau motions followed by Stage 3 debate on the Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business Thursday 2 December 1999 9.30 am Debate on a motion by the Scottish National Party followed by Business Motion followed by Parliamentary Bureau motions2.30 pm Question Time 3.00 pm Open Question Time followed by, no Debate on an Executive motion on later than 3.15 pm Equalities 5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business", "EditedTextHTML": "The motion is printed in today's bulletin. I would like to highlight that on Wednesday 24 November decision time has been moved to 5.30 pm. That is to facilitate an extended debate on land reform and is being done in response to requests made by members. As members will know, land reform is a very important issue and the bill will not be introduced to Parliament until next year. Members have not yet had an opportunity to discuss the issue, so I hope that members understand why decision time has been moved.

I move,

That the Parliament agrees the following programme of business—

Wednesday 24 November 1999

2.30 pm Time for Reflection followed by Debate on an Executive motion on Social Inclusion Targets followed by, no Debate on an Executive motion later than 3.45 pm on Land Reform

followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions

5.30 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business debate on the subject of S1M-250 Ms Irene Oldfather: Tobacco Sales to Under- Aged Children

Thursday 25 November 1999

9.30 am Debate on a Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party motion followed by Business Motion followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions

2.30 pm Question Time 3.00 pm Open Question Time followed by, no Ministerial Statement on later than 3.15 pm Freedom of Information

followed by, no Debate on an Executive motion later than 3.45 pm on Carers' Strategy

5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business debate on the subject of S1M-261 George Lyon: The Kintyre Economy

Wednesday 1 December 1999

2.30 pm Time for Reflection followed by Parliamentary Bureau motions followed by Stage 3 debate on the Public Finance and Accountability

(Scotland) Bill

5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business Thursday 2 December 1999 9.30 am Debate on a motion by the Scottish National Party followed by Business Motion followed by Parliamentary Bureau motions

2.30 pm Question Time 3.00 pm Open Question Time followed by, no Debate on an Executive motion on later than 3.15 pm Equalities

5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business

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" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5763926+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711870", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Standards Committee", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27072, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 347.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 347.0, "ID": 27072, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 352.0, "ContributionID": 711870, "EditedText": "Motion moved,", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion moved,

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5763926+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711887", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27073, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 359.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27074, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 360.0, "QuestionHeading": "Caledonian MacBrayne", "QuestionHeadingID": 27078, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 382.0, "DisplayOrder": 382.0, "ID": 27078, "ParentID": 27074 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 389.0, "ContributionID": 711887, "EditedText": "I call Pauline McNeill.", "EditedTextHTML": "I call Pauline McNeill.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C711888", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27073, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 359.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27074, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 360.0, "QuestionHeading": "Caledonian MacBrayne", "QuestionHeadingID": 27078, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 382.0, "DisplayOrder": 382.0, "ID": 27078, "ParentID": 27074 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 391.0, "ContributionID": 711888, "EditedText": "Can I—", "EditedTextHTML": "Can I—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2033E106P139C711896", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27073, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 359.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27074, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 360.0, "QuestionHeading": "Immigration and Asylum", "QuestionHeadingID": 27080, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 406.0, "DisplayOrder": 406.0, "ID": 27080, "ParentID": 27074 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gray, Iain", "ID": 2033, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Pentlands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Iain Gray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Community Care (Iain Gray): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 409.0, "ContributionID": 711896, "EditedText": "We expect that the legislation will be covered by the concordat between the Scottish Executive and the Home Office. We will be evaluating the effects of the new support scheme for asylum seekers in Scotland in due course.", "EditedTextHTML": "We expect that the legislation will be covered by the concordat between the Scottish Executive and the Home Office. We will be evaluating the effects of the new support scheme for asylum seekers in Scotland in due course.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2140E187P335C711901", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27073, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 359.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27074, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 360.0, "QuestionHeading": "Police Funding", "QuestionHeadingID": 27081, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 419.0, "DisplayOrder": 419.0, "ID": 27081, "ParentID": 27074 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Rumbles, Mike", "ID": 2140, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Rumbles", "SpeakerDisplayName": "7. Mr Mike Rumbles (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 420.0, "ContributionID": 711901, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it intends to review the process which determines the level of funding made available to individual police forces in Scotland. (S1O-654) The Lord Advocate (Lord Hardie): A review of the formula that determines the distribution of grant-aided expenditure for the police in Scotland commenced earlier this year. The review is being undertaken jointly by the Scottish Executive, the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities and the Association of Chief Police Officers in Scotland, and is due to report next year.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it intends to review the process which determines the level of funding made available to individual police forces in Scotland. (S1O-654) The Lord Advocate (Lord Hardie): A review of the formula that determines the distribution of grant-aided expenditure for the police in Scotland commenced earlier this year. The review is being undertaken jointly by the Scottish Executive, the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities and the Association of Chief Police Officers in Scotland, and is due to report next year.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711903", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27073, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 359.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27074, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 360.0, "QuestionHeading": "Police Funding", "QuestionHeadingID": 27081, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 419.0, "DisplayOrder": 419.0, "ID": 27081, "ParentID": 27074 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Lord Advocate", "SpeakerName": "Andrew Hardie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Lord Advocate: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 424.0, "ContributionID": 711903, "EditedText": "The review will consider all relevant information. In 1997-98, the grant-aided expenditure for Grampian police was set at £57.9 million and the force spent only £55.2 million. That is an underspend of £2.7 million, which I understand to be equivalent to the salaries of 108 police officers.", "EditedTextHTML": "The review will consider all relevant information. In 1997-98, the grant-aided expenditure for Grampian police was set at £57.9 million and the force spent only £55.2 million. That is an underspend of £2.7 million, which I understand to be equivalent to the salaries of 108 police officers.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1862E99P179C711906", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27073, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 359.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27074, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 360.0, "QuestionHeading": "Scottish Football Association", "QuestionHeadingID": 27082, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 426.0, "DisplayOrder": 426.0, "ID": 27082, "ParentID": 27074 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Brankin, Rhona", "ID": 1862, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Midlothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Culture and Sport", "SpeakerName": "Rhona Brankin", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Rhona Brankin: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 431.0, "ContributionID": 711906, "EditedText": "That was the match that I attended at Broadwood stadium on Sunday. Cathie Craigie, the MSP for Cumbernauld and Kilsyth, was there as was the MP Rosemary McKenna. I did not notice any male MPs or MSPs. We support the development of women's football in Scotland. More than 17,000 girls under the age of 18 play football in Scotland. Sportscotland has made plans to develop women's football and the SFA has recently taken over responsibility from the Scottish Women's Football Association for the development of girls' and women's football. Last year, Vera Pauw was appointed technical director and coach of the national team. Women's football is something that I am keen to take forward.", "EditedTextHTML": "That was the match that I attended at Broadwood stadium on Sunday. Cathie Craigie, the MSP for Cumbernauld and Kilsyth, was there as was the MP Rosemary McKenna. I did not notice any male MPs or MSPs.

We support the development of women's football in Scotland. More than 17,000 girls under the age of 18 play football in Scotland. Sportscotland has made plans to develop

women's football and the SFA has recently taken over responsibility from the Scottish Women's Football Association for the development of girls' and women's football. Last year, Vera Pauw was appointed technical director and coach of the national team. Women's football is something that I am keen to take forward.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1876E194P490C711910", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27073, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 359.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27074, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 360.0, "QuestionHeading": "Criminal Injuries Compensation Authority", "QuestionHeadingID": 27084, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 440.0, "DisplayOrder": 440.0, "ID": 27084, "ParentID": 27074 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Marwick, Tricia", "ID": 1876, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tricia Marwick", "SpeakerDisplayName": "11. Tricia Marwick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 441.0, "ContributionID": 711910, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what representations it has made to the Criminal Injuries Compensation Authority about delays in handling claims from Scottish victims. (S1O-619) The Lord Advocate (Lord Hardie): We have not made any representations on this subject. Although in some cases delays are inevitable, the authority is none the less committed to reducing waiting times.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what representations it has made to the Criminal Injuries Compensation Authority about delays in handling claims from Scottish victims. (S1O-619) The Lord Advocate (Lord Hardie): We have not made any representations on this subject. Although in some cases delays are inevitable, the authority is none the less committed to reducing waiting times.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1876E194P490C711911", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27073, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 359.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27074, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 360.0, "QuestionHeading": "Criminal Injuries Compensation Authority", "QuestionHeadingID": 27084, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 440.0, "DisplayOrder": 440.0, "ID": 27084, "ParentID": 27074 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Marwick, Tricia", "ID": 1876, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tricia Marwick", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tricia Marwick: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 443.0, "ContributionID": 711911, "EditedText": "Will the Lord Advocate tell me what length of delay he considers acceptable?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the Lord Advocate tell me what length of delay he considers acceptable?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C711915", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27073, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 359.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27074, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 360.0, "QuestionHeading": "Juvenile Offenders", "QuestionHeadingID": 27085, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 451.0, "DisplayOrder": 451.0, "ID": 27085, "ParentID": 27074 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "13. Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 452.0, "ContributionID": 711915, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will confirm that the actions of the sheriff in Ayr sheriff court on 9 November 1999 in relation to Ryan Ingram who had pleaded guilty to three separate charges involving assault and theft are in line with its recently announced plans for the treatment of juvenile offenders. (S1O-636) The First Minister (Donald Dewar): I take the view—as I hope this Parliament does—that sentencing is a matter for the courts. In this case, the court has had the advantage of hearing submissions, both from the procurator fiscal and from the defence, and of making a judgment on that basis.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will confirm that the actions of the sheriff in Ayr sheriff court on 9 November 1999 in relation to Ryan Ingram who had pleaded guilty to three separate charges involving assault and theft are in line with its recently announced plans for the treatment of juvenile offenders. (S1O-636) The First Minister (Donald Dewar): I take the view—as I hope this Parliament does—that sentencing is a matter for the courts. In this case, the court has had the advantage of hearing submissions, both from the procurator fiscal and from the defence, and of making a judgment on that basis.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1865E219P509C711918", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27073, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 359.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27074, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 360.0, "QuestionHeading": "Police Budgets", "QuestionHeadingID": 27086, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 458.0, "DisplayOrder": 458.0, "ID": 27086, "ParentID": 27074 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "White, Sandra", "ID": 1865, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sandra White", "SpeakerDisplayName": "14. Ms Sandra White (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 459.0, "ContributionID": 711918, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what action it intends to take to address the position whereby Scottish police forces have to cover the entire cost of policing visiting dignitaries from existing budgets whilst the Metropolitan police are granted over £150 million extra to cover the policing of visiting dignitaries and other special duties. (S1O-620) The Lord Advocate (Lord Hardie): Police grant-aided expenditure in Scotland provides forces with funding to cover all their policing requirements, including the cost of policing visiting dignitaries.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what action it intends to take to address the position whereby Scottish police forces have to cover the entire cost of policing visiting dignitaries from existing budgets whilst the Metropolitan police are granted over £150 million extra to cover the policing of visiting dignitaries and other special duties. (S1O-620) The Lord Advocate (Lord Hardie): Police grant-aided expenditure in Scotland provides forces with funding to cover all their policing requirements, including the cost of policing visiting dignitaries.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711921", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27073, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 359.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27074, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 360.0, "QuestionHeading": "Police Budgets", "QuestionHeadingID": 27086, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 458.0, "DisplayOrder": 458.0, "ID": 27086, "ParentID": 27074 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Lord Advocate", "SpeakerName": "Andrew Hardie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Lord Advocate: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 465.0, "ContributionID": 711921, "EditedText": "The funding of the Metropolitan police is not a matter for this Parliament. As I explained, the issue of policing visiting dignitaries is taken into account when allocating funds to Scottish police forces.", "EditedTextHTML": "The funding of the Metropolitan police is not a matter for this Parliament. As I explained, the issue of policing visiting dignitaries is taken into account when allocating funds to Scottish police forces.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C711924", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27073, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 359.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27074, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 360.0, "QuestionHeading": "Fife Health Board", "QuestionHeadingID": 27087, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 467.0, "DisplayOrder": 467.0, "ID": 27087, "ParentID": 27074 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 472.0, "ContributionID": 711924, "EditedText": "As I indicated in my answer to Mr Raffan's first question, it is the job of local health authorities to determine how best the needs of local populations can be met. It is the job of this Parliament to ensure that we set the national strategy and that health boards operate in a way that takes into account a wide range of opinion. I hope that that kind of dialogue will take place in the months ahead so that the most appropriate health services can be delivered for the people of Fife.", "EditedTextHTML": "As I indicated in my answer to Mr Raffan's first question, it is the job of local health authorities to determine how best the needs of local populations can be met. It is the job of this Parliament to ensure that we set the national strategy and that health boards operate in a way that takes into account a wide range of opinion. I hope that that kind of dialogue will take place in the months ahead so that the most appropriate health services can be delivered for the people of Fife.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2152E53P75C711925", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27073, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 359.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27074, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 360.0, "QuestionHeading": "Portmoak Airfield", "QuestionHeadingID": 27088, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 474.0, "DisplayOrder": 474.0, "ID": 27088, "ParentID": 27074 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnston, Nick", "ID": 2152, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nick Johnston", "SpeakerDisplayName": "16. Mr Nick Johnston (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 475.0, "ContributionID": 711925, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will make a statement on the future of the Scottish Gliding Union Portmoak airfield in Kinross and any potential dangers presented by the developments adjacent to the runways and flight path. (S1O-616) The Minister for Transport and the Environment (Sarah Boyack): Land use planning and development in the area of Portmoak airfield is a matter for Perth and Kinross Council acting under national and local development control policy.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will make a statement on the future of the Scottish Gliding Union Portmoak airfield in Kinross and any potential dangers presented by the developments adjacent to the runways and flight path. (S1O-616) The Minister for Transport and the Environment (Sarah Boyack): Land use planning and development in the area of Portmoak airfield is a matter for Perth and Kinross Council acting under national and local development control policy.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1888E265P358C711931", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27073, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 359.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27074, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 360.0, "QuestionHeading": "Genetically Modified Organisms", "QuestionHeadingID": 27090, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 488.0, "DisplayOrder": 488.0, "ID": 27090, "ParentID": 27074 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morgan, Alasdair", "ID": 1888, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Galloway and Upper Nithsdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morgan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "19. Alasdair Morgan (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 489.0, "ContributionID": 711931, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive, further to the answer to question S1W-1109 by Ross Finnie on 5 November 1999, whether it is satisfied that there is no risk of genetically modified crops in test sites in Scotland pollinating surrounding non-genetically modified crops and wild plants. (S1O-641) The Minister for Rural Affairs (Ross Finnie): Yes. All tests of GM crops with sites in Scotland have been subject to detailed risk assessment by the independent Advisory Committee on Releases to the Environment. Consent holders must adhere to the detailed limits and conditions that are set. That includes the size and nature of buffer zones that surround GM plantings, which are designed to ensure that there are no unacceptable environmental consequences.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive, further to the answer to question S1W-1109 by Ross Finnie on 5 November 1999, whether it is satisfied that there is no risk of genetically modified crops in test sites in Scotland pollinating surrounding non-genetically modified crops and wild plants. (S1O-641) The Minister for Rural Affairs (Ross Finnie): Yes. All tests of GM crops with sites in Scotland have been subject to detailed risk assessment by the independent Advisory Committee on Releases to the Environment. Consent holders must adhere to the detailed limits and conditions that are set. That includes the size and nature of buffer zones that surround GM plantings, which are designed to ensure that there are no unacceptable environmental consequences.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1873E89P171C711935", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27073, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 359.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27074, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 360.0, "QuestionHeading": "Halfway Houses", "QuestionHeadingID": 27091, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 495.0, "DisplayOrder": 495.0, "ID": 27091, "ParentID": 27074 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jackson, Dr Sylvia", "ID": 1873, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Stirling" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sylvia Jackson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Jackson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 498.0, "ContributionID": 711935, "EditedText": "Does the minister agree, however, that the problems faced by most women in Cornton Vale are deep-seated? Effective support requires a more sustained and structured approach, which could be provided by halfway houses.", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the minister agree, however, that the problems faced by most women in Cornton Vale are deep-seated? Effective support requires a more sustained and structured approach, which could be provided by halfway houses.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711940", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27073, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 359.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27074, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 360.0, "QuestionHeading": "Trading Standards Officers", "QuestionHeadingID": 27092, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 502.0, "DisplayOrder": 502.0, "ID": 27092, "ParentID": 27074 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 509.0, "ContributionID": 711940, "EditedText": "We started a couple of minutes late, so I will allow one more question.", "EditedTextHTML": "We started a couple of minutes late, so I will allow one more question.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1769E16P282C711942", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27073, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 359.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27074, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 360.0, "QuestionHeading": "Speech and Language Impairments", "QuestionHeadingID": 27093, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 511.0, "DisplayOrder": 511.0, "ID": 27093, "ParentID": 27074 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Smith, Elaine", "ID": 1769, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Coatbridge and Chryston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Smith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Elaine Smith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 514.0, "ContributionID": 711942, "EditedText": "Could the minister outline what measures will be taken to ensure that pupils who have speech and language impairments, and their parents and carers, will inform Government policy on this issue?", "EditedTextHTML": "Could the minister outline what measures will be taken to ensure that pupils who have speech and language impairments, and their parents and carers, will inform Government policy on this issue?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2167E79P155C711943", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27073, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 359.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27074, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 360.0, "QuestionHeading": "Speech and Language Impairments", "QuestionHeadingID": 27093, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 511.0, "DisplayOrder": 511.0, "ID": 27093, "ParentID": 27074 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Peacock, Peter", "ID": 2167, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Peter Peacock", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Peter Peacock: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 516.0, "ContributionID": 711943, "EditedText": "We have recently announced that we will review issues relating to speech and language therapy with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities and health agencies. It is very much our intention to consider the views of those who receive—or who find it difficult to receive— those services. I will be grateful for any information that the member can provide on that.", "EditedTextHTML": "We have recently announced that we will review issues relating to speech and language therapy with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities and health agencies. It is very much our intention to consider the views of those who receive—or who find it difficult to receive— those services. I will be grateful for any information that the member can provide on that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C711945", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27094, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 518.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27095, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 519.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meeting)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27096, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 520.0, "DisplayOrder": 520.0, "ID": 27096, "ParentID": 27095 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 523.0, "ContributionID": 711945, "EditedText": "I am delighted to share with the First Minister both the pride in last night's victory and the disappointment that we will not go further in the European championships. I am also delighted to note that the First Minister and the secretary of state do not have turf wars at Wembley. Now that Michael Russell's motion on the Act of Settlement has been signed by 68 members of this Parliament, will the First Minister undertake to communicate to the Prime Minister and urge on him the view that institutionalised discrimination is not acceptable in a modern constitution of a modern country?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am delighted to share with the First Minister both the pride in last night's victory and the disappointment that we will not go further in the European championships. I am also delighted to note that the First Minister and the secretary of state do not have turf wars at Wembley.

Now that Michael Russell's motion on the Act of Settlement has been signed by 68 members of this Parliament, will the First Minister undertake to communicate to the Prime Minister and urge on him the view that institutionalised discrimination is not acceptable in a modern constitution of a modern country?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C711946", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27094, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 518.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27095, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 519.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meeting)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27096, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 520.0, "DisplayOrder": 520.0, "ID": 27096, "ParentID": 27095 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 525.0, "ContributionID": 711946, "EditedText": "The Prime Minister will be aware of the issue. It has been discussed extensively not only in and around this chamber, but in other parts of our constitutional structures. Alex Salmond will recognise that it is not an area for which we have responsibility or a remit. Many of us accept that it is a legacy of the past, and should be seen as such. It is also widely recognised that the Government has many pressing legislative priorities. Indeed—I do not want to quote him selectively—Cardinal Winning made that point very fairly in the press the other day. It is something that, no doubt, will be kept under review.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Prime Minister will be aware of the issue. It has been discussed extensively not only in and around this chamber, but in other parts of our constitutional structures. Alex Salmond will recognise that it is not an area for which we have responsibility or a remit. Many of us accept that it is a legacy of the past, and should be seen as such. It is also widely recognised that the Government has many pressing legislative priorities. Indeed—I do not want to quote him selectively—Cardinal Winning made that point very fairly in the press the other day. It is something that, no doubt, will be kept under review.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711954", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27094, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 518.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27095, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 519.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meeting)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27096, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 520.0, "DisplayOrder": 520.0, "ID": 27096, "ParentID": 27095 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 541.0, "ContributionID": 711954, "EditedText": "Ah. That is in order.", "EditedTextHTML": "Ah. That is in order.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C711958", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27094, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 518.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27095, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 519.0, "QuestionHeading": "Prime Minister (Meeting)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27097, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 545.0, "DisplayOrder": 545.0, "ID": 27097, "ParentID": 27095 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 550.0, "ContributionID": 711958, "EditedText": "Mr McLetchie might find it rather embarrassing if he were asked to specify what this, that and the next thing constituted. Almost all the expenditure that has been announced by our Government is in response to pressing need and special difficulties and has been greatly appreciated by those who will be affected by it. Mr McLetchie will know that grant-aided expenditure for the police in this year's local government settlement was £714.7 million. That is an additional 3.4 per cent—£23 million—which is well above the rate of inflation. Next year, it will rise to £741 million. There have been extras, such as an additional £4.7 million to fund the inevitable expenses of policing the millennium celebrations. The figures for police numbers have been fairly steady. Taking 30 June 1997 in comparison with 30 June 1999, we see that the figures have remained steady, with a decline of 88 police officers. That must be seen against an increase of 8.4 per cent in support staff—almost 400 people have been brought in to do jobs that no longer need to be done by police officers. That allows police officers to be out and about on the streets. As far as prisons are concerned, that is a rationalisation of money that had not been used in the current year—end-year flexibility. The baseline continues to go up. That money was not spent on this, that and the next thing; it remained in the justice department and has been used to fund the drugs enforcement agency. I would have thought that even David McLetchie would see that as a reasonable priority.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr McLetchie might find it rather embarrassing if he were asked to specify what this, that and the next thing constituted. Almost all the expenditure that has been announced by our Government is in response to pressing need and special difficulties and has been greatly appreciated by those who will be affected by it.

Mr McLetchie will know that grant-aided expenditure for the police in this year's local government settlement was £714.7 million. That is an additional 3.4 per cent—£23 million—which is well above the rate of inflation. Next year, it will rise to £741 million. There have been extras, such as an additional £4.7 million to fund the inevitable expenses of policing the millennium celebrations.

The figures for police numbers have been fairly steady. Taking 30 June 1997 in comparison with 30 June 1999, we see that the figures have remained steady, with a decline of 88 police officers. That must be seen against an increase of

8.4 per cent in support staff—almost 400 people have been brought in to do jobs that no longer need to be done by police officers. That allows police officers to be out and about on the streets. As far as prisons are concerned, that is a rationalisation of money that had not been used in the current year—end-year flexibility. The baseline continues to go up. That money was not spent on this, that and the next thing; it remained in the justice department and has been used to fund the drugs enforcement agency. I would have thought that even David McLetchie would see that as a reasonable priority.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C711959", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27094, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 518.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27095, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 519.0, "QuestionHeading": "Prime Minister (Meeting)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27097, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 545.0, "DisplayOrder": 545.0, "ID": 27097, "ParentID": 27095 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 552.0, "ContributionID": 711959, "EditedText": "It is not a reasonable priority if it is at the expense of officers on the beat and safety in our communities. The First Minister should recognise that the first duty of any Government is to ensure public order and the safety of its citizens. If we do not have that foundation in society, we have nothing. Two days ago, outside this Parliament, we saw prison officers demonstrating. Yesterday, the crisis in our court system resulted in cases being deferred and postponed to clear the logjam that resulted from the decision that was taken on temporary sheriffs.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is not a reasonable priority if it is at the expense of officers on the beat and safety in our communities. The First Minister should recognise that the first duty of any Government is to ensure public order and the safety of its citizens. If we do not have that foundation in society, we have nothing.

Two days ago, outside this Parliament, we saw prison officers demonstrating. Yesterday, the crisis in our court system resulted in cases being deferred and postponed to clear the logjam that resulted from the decision that was taken on temporary sheriffs.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711962", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27094, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 518.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27095, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 519.0, "QuestionHeading": "Prime Minister (Meeting)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27097, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 545.0, "DisplayOrder": 545.0, "ID": 27097, "ParentID": 27095 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 558.0, "ContributionID": 711962, "EditedText": "We must have a question.", "EditedTextHTML": "We must have a question.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C711963", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27094, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 518.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27095, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 519.0, "QuestionHeading": "Prime Minister (Meeting)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27097, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 545.0, "DisplayOrder": 545.0, "ID": 27097, "ParentID": 27095 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 560.0, "ContributionID": 711963, "EditedText": "I am coming to the question. Coming on top of the muddle over Ruddle, does the First Minister accept that his Jim cannot fix it? Can we please have a justice minister in Scotland who is up to the job?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am coming to the question. Coming on top of the muddle over Ruddle, does the First Minister accept that his Jim cannot fix it? Can we please have a justice minister in Scotland who is up to the job?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C711964", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27094, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 518.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27095, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 519.0, "QuestionHeading": "Prime Minister (Meeting)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27097, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 545.0, "DisplayOrder": 545.0, "ID": 27097, "ParentID": 27095 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 562.0, "ContributionID": 711964, "EditedText": "McGonagall comes to Holyrood. Laughter. Mr McLetchie is worried about the number of policemen, and I accept that his concern is legitimate. I can tell him that the drugs enforcement agency, when operating, will produce another 200 policemen. I admit that that is a specialist area, but the front-line fight to combat the drug menace is not exactly some curious byway of law and order, but is absolutely central, as anyone who has any knowledge of our prison population at the moment will know. I understand the anxiety of the prison officers. We are aiming to avoid redundancies. We now have estimates, based on experience, of the likely prison population, estimates that lead us to believe that we can make those reductions. Penninghame and Dungavel are both old-fashioned and unsuitable forms of accommodation for prisoners. The recycling of that money into the drugs enforcement agency is very sensible. I would be more impressed by Mr McLetchie's claim that what happened in the temporary sheriff affair could have been easily foreseen, if he had foreseen it. However, the law has not changed. The forum in which redress of law can be taken has changed to the Scottish courts, but the law has not changed since 1971. The point could have been taken up at any time since 1971. As soon as the action was raised and it became clear that there was a reasonable chance that the decision that was finally to be reached would be reached, we took precautionary measures. That is why advertisements for more full-time sheriffs have been in the papers, the time for applications has closed, and the matter is now in hand. There is not a crisis; there is a situation that has to be managed. Proper steps have to be taken. It does not help the administration of justice if people who apparently have authoritative knowledge go round talking about a crisis.", "EditedTextHTML": "McGonagall comes to Holyrood. [Laughter.]

Mr McLetchie is worried about the number of policemen, and I accept that his concern is legitimate. I can tell him that the drugs enforcement agency, when operating, will produce another 200 policemen. I admit that that is a specialist area, but the front-line fight to combat the drug menace is not exactly some curious byway of law and order, but is absolutely central, as anyone who has any knowledge of our prison population at the moment will know.

I understand the anxiety of the prison officers. We are aiming to avoid redundancies. We now have estimates, based on experience, of the likely prison population, estimates that lead us to believe that we can make those reductions. Penninghame and Dungavel are both old-fashioned and unsuitable forms of accommodation for prisoners. The recycling of that money into the drugs enforcement agency is very sensible.

I would be more impressed by Mr McLetchie's claim that what happened in the temporary sheriff affair could have been easily foreseen, if he had foreseen it. However, the law has not changed. The forum in which redress of law can be taken has changed to the Scottish courts, but the law has not changed since 1971. The point could have been taken up at any time since 1971. As soon as the action was raised and it became clear that there was a reasonable chance that the decision that was finally to be reached would be reached, we took precautionary measures. That is why advertisements for more full-time sheriffs have been in the papers, the time for applications has closed, and the matter is now in hand. There is not a crisis; there is a situation that has to be managed. Proper steps have to be taken. It does not help the administration of justice if people who apparently have authoritative knowledge go round talking about a crisis.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1768E72P274C711968", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27094, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 518.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27095, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 519.0, "QuestionHeading": "Anti-social Neighbour Orders", "QuestionHeadingID": 27098, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 570.0, "DisplayOrder": 570.0, "ID": 27098, "ParentID": 27095 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Murray, Elaine", "ID": 1768, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumfries" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Murray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "3. Dr Elaine Murray (Dumfries) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 571.0, "ContributionID": 711968, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has to monitor the effectiveness and operation of anti-social neighbour orders. (S1O-618) The Deputy Minister for Communities (Jackie Baillie): We have commissioned the Chartered Institute of Housing in Scotland to monitor the use of anti-social behaviour orders under the Crime and Disorder Act 1998, as well as the extended powers of eviction for anti-social behaviour in the act. The outcome of the survey should be available in March next year.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has to monitor the effectiveness and operation of anti-social neighbour orders. (S1O-618) The Deputy Minister for Communities (Jackie Baillie): We have commissioned the Chartered Institute of Housing in Scotland to monitor the use of anti-social behaviour orders under the Crime and Disorder Act 1998, as well as the extended powers of eviction for anti-social behaviour in the act. The outcome of the survey should be available in March next year.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1775E171P452C711988", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Digital Scotland", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27099, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 599.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 599.0, "ID": 27099, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeod, Fiona", "ID": 1775, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona McLeod", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona McLeod: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 614.0, "ContributionID": 711988, "EditedText": "I will put that into perspective. I was about to mention the plethora of initiatives, of which the national grid for learning is one. Peter Peacock spoke about those initiatives; a good eight minutes of his speech was taken up with them. It is not the initiatives per se that bother us, but the lack of integration and coherence. It is all very well to have a national grid for learning, so long as it fits in to a coherent, co-ordinated national information strategy. I hope that that answers Maureen Macmillan's question. I had planned to list the plethora of initiatives, but Peter Peacock did that so I will not waste time by doing it again. In a previous speech in the chamber, I referred to the fact that, as a librarian, I should be happy about those initiatives. However, the profession is concerned that £144 million has been committed to them so far. On a good estimate, we could probably do the whole thing for a third of that cost. As Peter Peacock said, we must also consider content and digitisation. We have not looked at those areas yet. Government money must be put into initiatives in a co-ordinated, coherent and integrated fashion, but first we must have a strategy. I attended a meeting last week at which one of the librarians who was present said that no one had invested so much money in libraries and information, over such a short period of time, since Andrew Carnegie. I remind members that the Carnegie United Kingdom Trust set criteria and standards to ensure that the public library service that it funded became exactly that—a public library service that was free, with equal access for all. That is what today's debate and our amendment are about. The big but behind all those initiatives is that we must have integration and coherence and we must set national standards. I will quote from the Scottish Library and Information Council's 1999 publication \"Enabling Seamless Access\". \"Yet without co-ordination, the continued growth of separate networks may in the long-term prevent the development of ‘seamless access' to information and knowledge.\" That is what we must guard against.I will make some international comparisons. I said that Scotland is the right size to become a knowledge nation. Other countries are going down that road and have been doing so throughout the 1990s. For example, Denmark has the information society for all initiative, which I am sure that Peter Peacock knows about. It also has a Ministry of Research and Information Technology, with a division for IT and society. That is what Scotland must aim for. Ireland has the Information Society Commission, which, in its second annual report this year, talked about the fact that we have to look at awareness, infrastructure, learning, enterprise, legal issues, Government services, social inclusion and priority areas of focus. That is what we are talking about. I know that that is what Peter Peacock also talked about, but those countries are using action plans to produce the required coherence and strategy to ensure that all the initiatives work towards one aim: producing an information society. We should also look at Finland, which I know the minister recently visited. Finland realised in the early 1990s how important being an information society would be to its future. Three per cent of the annual gross domestic product was channelled into establishing Finland as an information society. They also ensured that they had an action plan, a national information strategy, which means that the money that was put in produced results. One in five people in Finland regularly accesses e-mail, one in three regularly uses the internet and every second person has a mobile phone. We might dread the mobile telephone, but the technology is developing to allow us to access the information society with mobile telephones. Finland has done it, and we must do it too. We must not examine only other countries. We must also look at Scotland within Europe. Last year, the European Union produced a report that said that a piecemeal and sporadic approach to information society initiatives will not remove the obstacles that have been identified. The Commission considers that decisive and concerted action is needed. That shows how seriously the EU takes building the information society. I hope that we in Scotland will take it that seriously. The European Commission also recommended that by June 1999 member states should submit comprehensive national strategies. Did we submit a comprehensive national strategy by June 1999? I am not aware, even through my professional background, that we did. This will be on the agenda for the meeting of the European Council in December. Will we have to put up our hands and admit that Scotland does not have a national action plan? I am short of time and my colleagues will cover infrastructure, content, access to information and the skills that are necessary for us to become an information society, but I would like to conclude by stressing urgency. Urgency is behind what goes on in the countries I have been talking about. Those countries have been working on this since the early 1990s. Most of them have had national action plans in place since the mid-1990s. We are about to enter the knowledge century and we have no national action plan. The SNP amendment asks for that to ensure that we produce more than nice, warm, woolly words. The SNP cannot endorse the motion as it stands because it does not provide the clearly defined agenda that we need to ensure Scotland's place at the forefront of the knowledge century that we are about to enter. If the Government does not accept our amendment, then it will have failed to take cognizance of the clearly stated views of the professionals that are out there. The minister talked about those whom he has involved in the task force. I am pleased to see that he has recommended that suggestions be made as to who that task force should include, but I must point out that the task force is dominated by the telecommunications industry, which comprises 45 per cent of it. The task force is about producing a national strategy, not about looking only at the telecommunications infrastructure. The task force must move beyond that; it must make the vision a reality. If that does not happen, we will be letting Scotland and its people down. Perhaps the minister should have attended the Information for Scotland seminar that was held last week at the University of Edinburgh. The leading lights in this field were assembled in one room. Had the minister attended he would have heard the message loud and clear that we need a national information strategy and we need it now. If he had attended the meeting, he would also have found the task force that he needs to produce the strategy—a task force that could produce the strategy in time for us to enter the 21st century. I commend the amendment to all members and hope that they will view it in the light in which it is intended to be viewed. I move amendment S1M-295.1, to delete from \"help develop\" to end and insert: \"produce an Integrated Information Strategy for Scotland which aims to influence the global development of the information society, ensures the development of an information society at national level and supports regional and local information society development in Scotland, which ensures the implementation of the strategy in and across every sphere and sector of Scottish society, and which will produce a National Action Plan in line with the European Commission's Information Society Action Plan that addresses the priority areas for action and has a clear timetable for achievement and progress.\"", "EditedTextHTML": "I will put that into perspective. I was about to mention the plethora of initiatives, of which the national grid for learning is one. Peter

Peacock spoke about those initiatives; a good eight minutes of his speech was taken up with them. It is not the initiatives per se that bother us, but the lack of integration and coherence. It is all very well to have a national grid for learning, so long as it fits in to a coherent, co-ordinated national information strategy. I hope that that answers Maureen Macmillan's question.

I had planned to list the plethora of initiatives, but Peter Peacock did that so I will not waste time by doing it again. In a previous speech in the chamber, I referred to the fact that, as a librarian, I should be happy about those initiatives. However, the profession is concerned that £144 million has been committed to them so far. On a good estimate, we could probably do the whole thing for a third of that cost.

As Peter Peacock said, we must also consider content and digitisation. We have not looked at those areas yet. Government money must be put into initiatives in a co-ordinated, coherent and integrated fashion, but first we must have a strategy. I attended a meeting last week at which one of the librarians who was present said that no one had invested so much money in libraries and information, over such a short period of time, since Andrew Carnegie. I remind members that the Carnegie United Kingdom Trust set criteria and standards to ensure that the public library service that it funded became exactly that—a public library service that was free, with equal access for all. That is what today's debate and our amendment are about.

The big but behind all those initiatives is that we must have integration and coherence and we must set national standards. I will quote from the Scottish Library and Information Council's 1999 publication \"Enabling Seamless Access\".

\"Yet without co-ordination, the continued growth of separate networks may in the long-term prevent the development of ‘seamless access' to information and knowledge.\"

That is what we must guard against.

I will make some international comparisons. I said that Scotland is the right size to become a knowledge nation. Other countries are going down that road and have been doing so throughout the 1990s. For example, Denmark has the information society for all initiative, which I am sure that Peter Peacock knows about. It also has a Ministry of Research and Information Technology, with a division for IT and society. That is what Scotland must aim for.

Ireland has the Information Society Commission, which, in its second annual report this year, talked about the fact that we have to look at awareness, infrastructure, learning, enterprise, legal issues, Government services, social inclusion and priority

areas of focus. That is what we are talking about. I know that that is what Peter Peacock also talked about, but those countries are using action plans to produce the required coherence and strategy to ensure that all the initiatives work towards one aim: producing an information society.

We should also look at Finland, which I know the minister recently visited. Finland realised in the early 1990s how important being an information society would be to its future. Three per cent of the annual gross domestic product was channelled into establishing Finland as an information society. They also ensured that they had an action plan, a national information strategy, which means that the money that was put in produced results. One in five people in Finland regularly accesses e-mail, one in three regularly uses the internet and every second person has a mobile phone. We might dread the mobile telephone, but the technology is developing to allow us to access the information society with mobile telephones. Finland has done it, and we must do it too.

We must not examine only other countries. We must also look at Scotland within Europe. Last year, the European Union produced a report that said that a piecemeal and sporadic approach to information society initiatives will not remove the obstacles that have been identified. The Commission considers that decisive and concerted action is needed. That shows how seriously the EU takes building the information society. I hope that we in Scotland will take it that seriously.

The European Commission also recommended that by June 1999 member states should submit comprehensive national strategies. Did we submit a comprehensive national strategy by June 1999? I am not aware, even through my professional background, that we did. This will be on the agenda for the meeting of the European Council in December. Will we have to put up our hands and admit that Scotland does not have a national action plan?

I am short of time and my colleagues will cover infrastructure, content, access to information and the skills that are necessary for us to become an information society, but I would like to conclude by stressing urgency. Urgency is behind what goes on in the countries I have been talking about. Those countries have been working on this since the early 1990s. Most of them have had national action plans in place since the mid-1990s. We are about to enter the knowledge century and we have no national action plan. The SNP amendment asks for that to ensure that we produce more than nice, warm, woolly words.

The SNP cannot endorse the motion as it stands because it does not provide the clearly defined agenda that we need to ensure Scotland's place at the forefront of the knowledge century that we are about to enter. If the Government does not accept our amendment, then it will have failed to take cognizance of the clearly stated views of the professionals that are out there.

The minister talked about those whom he has involved in the task force. I am pleased to see that he has recommended that suggestions be made as to who that task force should include, but I must point out that the task force is dominated by the telecommunications industry, which comprises 45 per cent of it. The task force is about producing a national strategy, not about looking only at the telecommunications infrastructure. The task force must move beyond that; it must make the vision a reality. If that does not happen, we will be letting Scotland and its people down.

Perhaps the minister should have attended the Information for Scotland seminar that was held last week at the University of Edinburgh. The leading lights in this field were assembled in one room. Had the minister attended he would have heard the message loud and clear that we need a national information strategy and we need it now. If he had attended the meeting, he would also have found the task force that he needs to produce the strategy—a task force that could produce the strategy in time for us to enter the 21st century.

I commend the amendment to all members and hope that they will view it in the light in which it is intended to be viewed.

I move amendment S1M-295.1, to delete from \"help develop\" to end and insert:

\"produce an Integrated Information Strategy for Scotland which aims to influence the global development of the information society, ensures the development of an information society at national level and supports regional and local information society development in Scotland, which ensures the implementation of the strategy in and across every sphere and sector of Scottish society, and which will produce a National Action Plan in line with the European Commission's Information Society Action Plan that addresses the priority areas for action and has a clear timetable for achievement and progress.\"

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C711989", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Digital Scotland", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27099, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 599.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 599.0, "ID": 27099, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Patricia Ferguson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 616.0, "ContributionID": 711989, "EditedText": "I apologise to Fiona McLeod, on behalf of whichever member was inconsiderate enough to leave their new technology switched on before they left the building.", "EditedTextHTML": "I apologise to Fiona McLeod, on behalf of whichever member was inconsiderate enough to leave their new technology switched on before they left the building.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1775E171P452C711991", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Digital Scotland", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27099, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 599.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 599.0, "ID": 27099, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeod, Fiona", "ID": 1775, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona McLeod", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona McLeod: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 621.0, "ContributionID": 711991, "EditedText": "Mr Davidson has mentioned providing advice to companies. Would not it be better, in the spirit of the amendment, to have a national action plan that included strategies and criteria so that advice would always be given within national criteria and would be readily acceptable?", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Davidson has mentioned providing advice to companies. Would not it be better, in the spirit of the amendment, to have a national action plan that included strategies and

criteria so that advice would always be given within national criteria and would be readily acceptable?

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" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C711995", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Digital Scotland", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27099, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 599.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 599.0, "ID": 27099, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 630.0, "ContributionID": 711995, "EditedText": "Please do not take out your pacemaker.", "EditedTextHTML": "Please do not take out your pacemaker.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C711999", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Digital Scotland", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27099, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 599.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 599.0, "ID": 27099, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 638.0, "ContributionID": 711999, "EditedText": "I will now open the debate to members. Speeches should last approximately four minutes.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will now open the debate to members. Speeches should last approximately four minutes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1888E265P358C712001", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Digital Scotland", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27099, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 599.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 599.0, "ID": 27099, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morgan, Alasdair", "ID": 1888, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Galloway and Upper Nithsdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morgan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alasdair Morgan (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 644.0, "ContributionID": 712001, "EditedText": "I am sorry that we have got such a small audience for our debate this afternoon. I am reassured by the thought that some of our colleagues may be here in a virtual sense. I think that Ian Jenkins was exaggerating somewhat when he said that this issue is not his scene, but looking round him as he spoke on his own, it was clearly more his scene than that of any of his Liberal Democrat colleagues. I will talk about the importance of electronic commerce and IT for rural Scotland, which has not been addressed too much in the debate so far. Hitherto, rural Scotland has suffered the problems of distance in much that it does. Cost has militated against economic developments that might have taken place in rural Scotland. With e- commerce, we can perhaps begin to level the playing field—if I can use a phrase that is much loved by the National Farmers Union of Scotland these days. Both distance and the various costs associated with distance can be avoided—I will skip over the opportunity to make yet another speech on petrol prices. The development of e-commerce and IT means that the costs that go with distance can be avoided in almost all cases, except in the final delivery of goods. In many cases, in graphic design, developing websites and writing television scripts, the costs associated with remoteness almost disappear with e-commerce. It is also true that costs in rural areas tend to be much lower because of lower overheads. It is an unfortunate reflection of some of the facts of rural life that wage rates and house prices tend to be much lower there. All this development in the rural economy is dependent on the infrastructure's being in place. In Dumfries and Galloway, for example, some of our telephone exchanges are not yet digitised, although it is intended finally to get round to that by the end of this year. We need to ensure that there is continuous development of rural networks as technology moves forward. Putting the infrastructure in place is not a one-off exercise. We know that the pace of technology is getting ever quicker, so the infrastructure that is put in place this year or this decade will not be the infrastructure that is suitable for the next decade or the one after that. That is particularly true of the many initiatives that are under way in schools around Scotland. It is all right providing the money to put in one set of equipment or infrastructure, but we need to be aware that a high replacement cost goes with that. That replacement cost may show up in budgets much sooner than people are expecting. We cannot treat as less important the provision of infrastructure in rural areas, or the rural economy will find itself excluded once more. We also need to examine how local calls are charged by British Telecommunications and, increasingly, other telephone providers. Obviously, that is a matter for the UK Government, but I hope that Scottish ministers will be able to make a contribution. Call charging is an area in which we suffer in comparison with competitor countries, especially the United States, where local call charges are often non-existent. Hitherto we have lacked an information strategy, and that has led us to take a piecemeal approach to the development of much of our infrastructure. Local authorities, largely via their library services, are developing their own systems. We are developing many networks throughout the country—for tertiary education, the health service, the Scottish university for industry and the tourist boards—but how much compatibility will there be between those systems? Even in the Parliament, it is not yet possible for constituency staff to access our system. Because each network requires its own co-ordinating body, staff and overheads, we need to ask ourselves some questions about how efficiently systems are being introduced. One of the first tasks of digital Scotland will be to audit the technological and digital infrastructure that we have. That is to be welcomed, but one would think that it could have been done a little earlier. This is a very important subject, and we need to get it right in Scotland. We also need to get it right fairly quickly, or as a nation we will be left behind. We cannot afford to lose out on this one.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry that we have got such a small audience for our debate this afternoon. I am reassured by the thought that some of our colleagues may be here in a virtual sense.

I think that Ian Jenkins was exaggerating somewhat when he said that this issue is not his scene, but looking round him as he spoke on his own, it was clearly more his scene than that of any of his Liberal Democrat colleagues.

I will talk about the importance of electronic commerce and IT for rural Scotland, which has not been addressed too much in the debate so far.

Hitherto, rural Scotland has suffered the problems of distance in much that it does. Cost has militated against economic developments that might have taken place in rural Scotland. With e- commerce, we can perhaps begin to level the playing field—if I can use a phrase that is much loved by the National Farmers Union of Scotland these days. Both distance and the various costs associated with distance can be avoided—I will skip over the opportunity to make yet another speech on petrol prices.

The development of e-commerce and IT means that the costs that go with distance can be avoided in almost all cases, except in the final delivery of goods. In many cases, in graphic design, developing websites and writing television scripts, the costs associated with remoteness almost disappear with e-commerce.

It is also true that costs in rural areas tend to be much lower because of lower overheads. It is an unfortunate reflection of some of the facts of rural life that wage rates and house prices tend to be much lower there.

All this development in the rural economy is dependent on the infrastructure's being in place. In Dumfries and Galloway, for example, some of our telephone exchanges are not yet digitised, although it is intended finally to get round to that by the end of this year. We need to ensure that there is continuous development of rural networks as technology moves forward. Putting the

infrastructure in place is not a one-off exercise. We know that the pace of technology is getting ever quicker, so the infrastructure that is put in place this year or this decade will not be the infrastructure that is suitable for the next decade or the one after that.

That is particularly true of the many initiatives that are under way in schools around Scotland. It is all right providing the money to put in one set of equipment or infrastructure, but we need to be aware that a high replacement cost goes with that. That replacement cost may show up in budgets much sooner than people are expecting.

We cannot treat as less important the provision of infrastructure in rural areas, or the rural economy will find itself excluded once more. We also need to examine how local calls are charged by British Telecommunications and, increasingly, other telephone providers. Obviously, that is a matter for the UK Government, but I hope that Scottish ministers will be able to make a contribution. Call charging is an area in which we suffer in comparison with competitor countries, especially the United States, where local call charges are often non-existent.

Hitherto we have lacked an information strategy, and that has led us to take a piecemeal approach to the development of much of our infrastructure. Local authorities, largely via their library services, are developing their own systems. We are developing many networks throughout the country—for tertiary education, the health service, the Scottish university for industry and the tourist boards—but how much compatibility will there be between those systems? Even in the Parliament, it is not yet possible for constituency staff to access our system. Because each network requires its own co-ordinating body, staff and overheads, we need to ask ourselves some questions about how efficiently systems are being introduced.

One of the first tasks of digital Scotland will be to audit the technological and digital infrastructure that we have. That is to be welcomed, but one would think that it could have been done a little earlier. This is a very important subject, and we need to get it right in Scotland. We also need to get it right fairly quickly, or as a nation we will be left behind. We cannot afford to lose out on this one.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1814E135P516C712002", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Digital Scotland", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27099, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 599.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 599.0, "ID": 27099, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Fabiani, Linda", "ID": 1814, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Linda Fabiani", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Linda Fabiani (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 647.0, "ContributionID": 712002, "EditedText": "I am pleased that this matter has been raised so early in the life of the Parliament. However, the motion that we are being asked to approve at the end of today's debate is one of the finer examples of civil- service-speak—I hope that the chaps at the front will forgive me for that comment. It pulls together many of the issues and promises partnership and enhanced opportunities, but ultimately it fails to describe what we should be working towards. We will not get to the leading edge of the industries that have arisen from the new technologies simply by stating the objective. Rather, we will do it by carefully planning out the route. It is quite clear that the route will be defined by how we organise and exploit the mass of information that modern technology has the power to place at our fingertips. That challenge will be met only if the people of Scotland have the basic skills and competencies, but we are told that approximately half of the men and women in the UK lack those basic skills. We can have no confidence that the position in Scotland is any better than that in the UK as a whole. To date, much of the Executive's work appears to be focused not on core skills and competencies, but on the technology and physical access to it. Core skills and competencies are essential—fewer than 2,000 students in Scotland are studying mass communication. We need to increase student numbers in relevant fields and encourage adult returnees to further and higher education. The issue will be much debated following the outcome of the Cubie report. The minister has urged us all to be excited about his latest initiative. I agree: CD-ROMs in Dundee are exciting and cybercafés in Wester Hailes and Barrhead are impressive, but not if people lack the skills and confidence to use the technology. We must ensure that the technology is available to all of our people. The School Library Association, for example, has stated that \"for the whole population of Scotland digital literacy skills should be fostered by introductory and SVQ linked courses\" and it suggests that staff in all libraries should be adequately trained in information and communication technology. That means focusing on people, not technology. The technology will be relevant to people only if it is applied in situations that are relevant to them: at home, in the work place and in the community. Many people have no interest in information and communication technology; it is something for big business and bureaucracies. That perception will be reinforced by the make-up of the minister's task force. The minister said that he considered inclusiveness to be a key aspect of the task force membership, but where are the community voices or the working teacher? Who will speak for those who work with special needs clients? If the minister wants the initiative to connect with the people of Scotland, and not simply work as a route into Government for special interests, he should look again at his task force recruitment, this time aiming at the consumer, not the technology provider. Scotland has tremendous economic potential; everyone in this chamber recognises that. To realise that potential, Scotland needs to be an information society in terms of provision of knowledge and skills and of products and services. We already have a good base on which to build. I am pleased that my part of the country, East Kilbride, has a major stake in that base. Our technology park houses many small firms that have benefited from, and are assisting others to benefit from, European social fund and local authority initiatives. Gael Quality Software, last year's winner of Lanarkshire's best small business award, is an example of a success story. It has expanded from two founders to ownership of a factory that employs 40 people. That is a fine example of a co-ordination of training and enterprise that is surely the way forward. I would like to inject a note of caution, though. East Kilbride also houses firms such as Motorola and JVC, both of which are well known for their success in technology. Unfortunately, both companies are suffering employee disputes. We know that there is employee unrest in some call centres. We must ensure that in our enthusiasm to welcome new technology industries, we do not allow a return to industrial revolution standards of employee rights. While it is well meaning, the minister's plan shows a lack of strategy. My colleague, Fiona McLeod, has lodged an amendment that I encourage members to consider in detail. Approving the amendment would spell out clearly what this Parliament wants Scotland to be and I commend it for members' support.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am pleased that this matter has been raised so early in the life of the Parliament. However, the motion that we are being asked to approve at the end of today's debate is one of the finer examples of civil- service-speak—I hope that the chaps at the front will forgive me for that comment. It pulls together many of the issues and promises partnership and enhanced opportunities, but ultimately it fails to describe what we should be working towards.

We will not get to the leading edge of the industries that have arisen from the new technologies simply by stating the objective. Rather, we will do it by carefully planning out the route. It is quite clear that the route will be defined by how we organise and exploit the mass of information that modern technology has the power to place at our fingertips.

That challenge will be met only if the people of Scotland have the basic skills and competencies, but we are told that approximately half of the men and women in the UK lack those basic skills. We can have no confidence that the position in Scotland is any better than that in the UK as a whole.

To date, much of the Executive's work appears to be focused not on core skills and competencies, but on the technology and physical access to it. Core skills and competencies are essential—fewer than 2,000 students in Scotland are studying mass communication. We need to increase student numbers in relevant fields and encourage adult returnees to further and higher education. The issue will be much debated following the outcome of the Cubie report.

The minister has urged us all to be excited about his latest initiative. I agree: CD-ROMs in Dundee are exciting and cybercafés in Wester Hailes and Barrhead are impressive, but not if people lack the skills and confidence to use the technology. We must ensure that the technology is available to all of our people. The School Library Association, for example, has stated that

\"for the whole population of Scotland digital literacy skills should be fostered by introductory and SVQ linked courses\" and it suggests that staff in all libraries should be adequately trained in information and communication technology. That means focusing on people, not technology.

The technology will be relevant to people only if it is applied in situations that are relevant to them: at home, in the work place and in the community. Many people have no interest in information and communication technology; it is something for big business and bureaucracies. That perception will be reinforced by the make-up of the minister's task force.

The minister said that he considered inclusiveness to be a key aspect of the task force membership, but where are the community voices or the working teacher? Who will speak for those who work with special needs clients? If the minister wants the initiative to connect with the people of Scotland, and not simply work as a route

into Government for special interests, he should look again at his task force recruitment, this time aiming at the consumer, not the technology provider.

Scotland has tremendous economic potential; everyone in this chamber recognises that. To realise that potential, Scotland needs to be an information society in terms of provision of knowledge and skills and of products and services. We already have a good base on which to build. I am pleased that my part of the country, East Kilbride, has a major stake in that base. Our technology park houses many small firms that have benefited from, and are assisting others to benefit from, European social fund and local authority initiatives. Gael Quality Software, last year's winner of Lanarkshire's best small business award, is an example of a success story. It has expanded from two founders to ownership of a factory that employs 40 people. That is a fine example of a co-ordination of training and enterprise that is surely the way forward.

I would like to inject a note of caution, though. East Kilbride also houses firms such as Motorola and JVC, both of which are well known for their success in technology. Unfortunately, both companies are suffering employee disputes. We know that there is employee unrest in some call centres. We must ensure that in our enthusiasm to welcome new technology industries, we do not allow a return to industrial revolution standards of employee rights.

While it is well meaning, the minister's plan shows a lack of strategy. My colleague, Fiona McLeod, has lodged an amendment that I encourage members to consider in detail. Approving the amendment would spell out clearly what this Parliament wants Scotland to be and I commend it for members' support.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1840E82P158C712003", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Digital Scotland", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27099, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 599.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 599.0, "ID": 27099, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macmillan, Maureen", "ID": 1840, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Maureen Macmillan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Maureen Macmillan (Highlands and Islands) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 650.0, "ContributionID": 712003, "EditedText": "Like Ian Jenkins, I have to admit that the technology that I am used to is chalk, books and perhaps an old word processor at the back of the classroom. I am not a whiz on the computer, as Rhoda Grant will confirm: she has to do most of my computer work for me. A year ago I did not know what ICT stands for; today, however, I found that I know an acronym that the minister does not. I have clearly tried to get up to speed. I recognise the profound effect that the digital revolution is having on the economy. It is having a particularly great effect in the Highlands and Islands in terms of the economy and social inclusion. The most obvious sign of that is the increasing number of call centres, which are all over the region. Already, 1,800 jobs have been created; that is due to rise to 2,500. Those jobs were viewed with suspicion for the reasons Linda Fabiani touched on, but complex, high-tech financial centres are now opening. One opened recently in Nairn, at which there is good money— the work force is pleased with the level of wages. That will help to raise wages generally in the Highlands, which has a low-wage economy. Not as obvious, but of longer-term importance, is the part that the digital revolution is playing in further and higher education in the Highlands and Islands. As Elaine Thomson said, the University of the Highlands and Islands is a partnership of colleges and research units that are linked to each other and to local learning centres through information and communication technology. The development of that network will bring about the creation of the Highlands and Islands learning grid, supporting voice, data and video, self-dialled and tariff free. It will not cost the student, across the UHI network, and it will mean that students can access courses from their own communities, from Yell in Shetland in the north, to Barra in the west and Campbeltown in the south. Students will become part of the knowledge economy and their expertise and initiative, while remaining at home in their communities, can help sustain and regenerate those communities. This is a tremendous, innovative, exciting and unique project that has taken a great deal of hard work to bring together, but it will pay enormous dividends as it pulls in high-quality administration, research and development jobs in the Highlands. If information and communication technology can link all parts of the Highlands and Islands, it can also sell the area in the global marketplace; the web can become our shop window. Already, Project Ossian has been selling the Highlands and Islands as a tourist destination. There is unlimited scope for all sorts of businesses to trade over the web with the rest of the world. The internet does not care whether someone lives in Amsterdam or Achiltibuie. If someone has something to sell or something to offer, they can do it over the internet. Highlands and Islands Enterprise already has a team of IT advisers throughout the area and—as Elaine Thomson mentioned—a special development adviser in e-commerce was appointed recently. The adviser is overseeing a project with Highlands and Islands companies, to develop e-commerce services for small to medium enterprises. There are already 13,000 employees in the knowledge, information and telecommunications sector in the Highlands and Islands Enterprise area, so we feel that we are at the forefront. However, we cannot afford to be complacent. As has already been said, we must keep our digital systems up to date and ensure that we have no shooglie connections.I met some students from Dingwall Academy this morning. They complained that their e-mail does not always work. Well, it has to work. If we are to have a national grid for learning, the connections have to be well wired in. I was talking to a computer teacher from Ullapool the other day and I—who have only just discovered ISDN—hear that we need something called megastream, which I gather means that data can be downloaded in a shorter time and therefore at less cost. Please can we have that sometime soon? We need to make communities comfortable with computers. Many people cannot afford one or feel that they could not cope with one. I would like computers to be available for use in small communities in much the same way that the network of public telephones was set up more than 50 years ago, when only one or two people in a village had telephones at home. It would allow people in crofting communities—given the right, non-threatening kind of training—to start up e- commerce business in a small way. I would like communities to be given help to create their own websites, to give out information about themselves, market tourism and sell produce. E-commerce will bring the Highlands and Islands into the 21st century. The young, who are already computer literate, will embrace new technology and use it to regenerate remote communities. I look forward to the era of the e- commerce crofter.", "EditedTextHTML": "Like Ian Jenkins, I have to admit that the technology that I am used to is chalk, books and perhaps an old word processor at the back of the classroom. I am not a whiz on the computer, as Rhoda Grant will confirm: she has to do most of my computer work for me. A year ago I did not know what ICT stands for; today, however, I found that I know an acronym that the minister does not. I have clearly tried to get up to speed.

I recognise the profound effect that the digital revolution is having on the economy. It is having a particularly great effect in the Highlands and Islands in terms of the economy and social inclusion. The most obvious sign of that is the increasing number of call centres, which are all over the region. Already, 1,800 jobs have been created; that is due to rise to 2,500. Those jobs were viewed with suspicion for the reasons Linda Fabiani touched on, but complex, high-tech financial centres are now opening. One opened recently in Nairn, at which there is good money— the work force is pleased with the level of wages. That will help to raise wages generally in the Highlands, which has a low-wage economy.

Not as obvious, but of longer-term importance, is the part that the digital revolution is playing in further and higher education in the Highlands and Islands. As Elaine Thomson said, the University of the Highlands and Islands is a partnership of colleges and research units that are linked to each other and to local learning centres through information and communication technology. The development of that network will bring about the creation of the Highlands and Islands learning grid, supporting voice, data and video, self-dialled and tariff free. It will not cost the student, across the UHI network, and it will mean that students can access courses from their own communities, from Yell in Shetland in the north, to Barra in the west and Campbeltown in the south.

Students will become part of the knowledge economy and their expertise and initiative, while remaining at home in their communities, can help sustain and regenerate those communities. This is a tremendous, innovative, exciting and unique project that has taken a great deal of hard work to bring together, but it will pay enormous dividends as it pulls in high-quality administration, research and development jobs in the Highlands.

If information and communication technology can link all parts of the Highlands and Islands, it can also sell the area in the global marketplace; the web can become our shop window. Already, Project Ossian has been selling the Highlands and Islands as a tourist destination. There is unlimited scope for all sorts of businesses to trade over the web with the rest of the world. The internet does not care whether someone lives in Amsterdam or Achiltibuie. If someone has something to sell or something to offer, they can do it over the internet.

Highlands and Islands Enterprise already has a team of IT advisers throughout the area and—as Elaine Thomson mentioned—a special development adviser in e-commerce was appointed recently. The adviser is overseeing a project with Highlands and Islands companies, to develop e-commerce services for small to medium enterprises.

There are already 13,000 employees in the knowledge, information and telecommunications sector in the Highlands and Islands Enterprise area, so we feel that we are at the forefront. However, we cannot afford to be complacent. As has already been said, we must keep our digital systems up to date and ensure that we have no

shooglie connections.

I met some students from Dingwall Academy this morning. They complained that their e-mail does not always work. Well, it has to work. If we are to have a national grid for learning, the connections have to be well wired in. I was talking to a computer teacher from Ullapool the other day and I—who have only just discovered ISDN—hear that we need something called megastream, which I gather means that data can be downloaded in a shorter time and therefore at less cost. Please can we have that sometime soon?

We need to make communities comfortable with computers. Many people cannot afford one or feel that they could not cope with one. I would like computers to be available for use in small communities in much the same way that the network of public telephones was set up more than 50 years ago, when only one or two people in a village had telephones at home. It would allow people in crofting communities—given the right, non-threatening kind of training—to start up e- commerce business in a small way.

I would like communities to be given help to create their own websites, to give out information about themselves, market tourism and sell produce. E-commerce will bring the Highlands and Islands into the 21st century. The young, who are already computer literate, will embrace new technology and use it to regenerate remote communities. I look forward to the era of the e- commerce crofter.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5920149+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C712006", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Digital Scotland", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27099, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 599.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 599.0, "ID": 27099, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 657.0, "ContributionID": 712006, "EditedText": "Unfortunately I could not. That would be fantasy television. Because there is a much bigger opportunity to transmit—I am sorry Alasdair Morrison is not here—Gaelic and Welsh television channels, and television channels in every other language, can be made available. There is more: we can shop, use e-mail, play games—in fact, we can have a computer on our television set. Some years ago, there was speculation that the internet would be available on television, although people did not know how to bring the two together; that has now happened. We have to find a way to bring people into the information age. The box in the corner of people's rooms is the way in which that can be done. At present, the charge for the basic digital television service on satellite is about £12 to £13 a month. That is less than having a computer or subscribing to certain internet services. We have to ensure that people have the maximum access to digital television. The great tragedy of this debate is that the UK Government is considering the conclusions of the Davies report, which would make it more difficult to get access to digital television. The prospect of a digital levy—under which people would pay extra to subscribe to digital services—is lunacy. It puts back the time at which the whole television service can move to digital. Last week, Duncan Hamilton asked Mr Galbraith about access to digital television in the Highlands and Islands. We want a dash to digital, which would require Government help to fund it. The Government can help to fund that dash to digital, because it will receive at least £10 billion from the sale of analogue frequencies when digital takes over. When developing its strategy, the Executive should think of ways in which it can put Scotland really—not just in yet another motion—at the cutting edge. It should encourage a quick switch- over to digital television and assist people to switch over. We can then open up the world from the corner of everybody's living room. The opportunity to do that exists. While we are doing that, we can encourage the providers of other digital services, such as BT, to be more generous in their provision. In Northern Ireland, there was an overnight switch-over to digital. In some parts of Scotland, it is claimed that because of technological difficulties we have to live within 3 km of a digital exchange to have a digital line, and customers are being quoted up to £200,000 to install a digital telephone line. There cannot be an abdication of responsibility. No number of task forces, even if chaired by people as amiable as Mr Peacock, will make any difference unless there is investment. In the 19th century, Governments knew that they had to invest to change and develop society. It is greatly to be regretted that, on the verge of the 21st century, that basic truth has been lost by new Labour, in particular, and sadly by the Liberals, too, and the partnership has no desire to invest. The UK Government will receive £10 billion, a share of which will come to Scotland. Let us spend the money on the future. The future is digital television. If we do not spend that money, all these fine words will mean nothing. Finally—I have anticipated you, Presiding Officer, and promise that this is my final point—I say that the amendment is profoundly necessary. The Executive has not demonstrated a desire for a national strategy and plan. I ask those who have open minds on the matter to support such a desire, so that the Government prepares itself in the way that other countries in Europe are preparing themselves, rather than in the quixotic manner of new Labour.", "EditedTextHTML": "Unfortunately I could not. That would be fantasy television.

Because there is a much bigger opportunity to transmit—I am sorry Alasdair Morrison is not here—Gaelic and Welsh television channels, and television channels in every other language, can be made available. There is more: we can shop, use e-mail, play games—in fact, we can have a computer on our television set. Some years ago, there was speculation that the internet would be available on television, although people did not know how to bring the two together; that has now happened.

We have to find a way to bring people into the information age. The box in the corner of people's rooms is the way in which that can be done. At present, the charge for the basic digital television service on satellite is about £12 to £13 a month. That is less than having a computer or subscribing to certain internet services. We have to ensure that people have the maximum access to digital television.

The great tragedy of this debate is that the UK Government is considering the conclusions of the Davies report, which would make it more difficult to get access to digital television. The prospect of a digital levy—under which people would pay extra to subscribe to digital services—is lunacy. It puts back the time at which the whole television service can move to digital.

Last week, Duncan Hamilton asked Mr Galbraith about access to digital television in the Highlands and Islands. We want a dash to digital, which

would require Government help to fund it. The Government can help to fund that dash to digital, because it will receive at least £10 billion from the sale of analogue frequencies when digital takes over.

When developing its strategy, the Executive should think of ways in which it can put Scotland really—not just in yet another motion—at the cutting edge. It should encourage a quick switch- over to digital television and assist people to switch over. We can then open up the world from the corner of everybody's living room. The opportunity to do that exists.

While we are doing that, we can encourage the providers of other digital services, such as BT, to be more generous in their provision. In Northern Ireland, there was an overnight switch-over to digital. In some parts of Scotland, it is claimed that because of technological difficulties we have to live within 3 km of a digital exchange to have a digital line, and customers are being quoted up to £200,000 to install a digital telephone line.

There cannot be an abdication of responsibility. No number of task forces, even if chaired by people as amiable as Mr Peacock, will make any difference unless there is investment. In the 19th century, Governments knew that they had to invest to change and develop society. It is greatly to be regretted that, on the verge of the 21st century, that basic truth has been lost by new Labour, in particular, and sadly by the Liberals, too, and the partnership has no desire to invest.

The UK Government will receive £10 billion, a share of which will come to Scotland. Let us spend the money on the future. The future is digital television. If we do not spend that money, all these fine words will mean nothing.

Finally—I have anticipated you, Presiding Officer, and promise that this is my final point—I say that the amendment is profoundly necessary. The Executive has not demonstrated a desire for a national strategy and plan. I ask those who have open minds on the matter to support such a desire, so that the Government prepares itself in the way that other countries in Europe are preparing themselves, rather than in the quixotic manner of new Labour.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1962E35P56C712008", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Digital Scotland", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27099, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 599.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 599.0, "ID": 27099, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mundell, David", "ID": 1962, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Mundell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David Mundell (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 662.0, "ContributionID": 712008, "EditedText": "First, I want to restate my registered interest in BT Scotland. Secondly, I apologise for my late arrival. Thank you for bearing with me, Presiding Officer. As I sat on the tarmac at Amsterdam airport in a snowstorm, I thought that if the Parliament really had achieved something by way of technology, I would have been able to beam my presence to the chamber. I have to agree with Mike Russell—the motion is hardly zappy. However, the amendment falls into the same category. If we are going to produce such language, we will not engage—", "EditedTextHTML": "First, I want to restate my registered interest in BT Scotland. Secondly, I apologise for my late arrival.

Thank you for bearing with me, Presiding Officer. As I sat on the tarmac at Amsterdam airport in a snowstorm, I thought that if the Parliament really had achieved something by way of technology, I would have been able to beam my presence to the chamber.

I have to agree with Mike Russell—the motion is hardly zappy. However, the amendment falls into the same category. If we are going to produce such language, we will not engage—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C712031", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27100, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 713.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 713.0, "ID": 27100, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 714.0, "ContributionID": 712031, "EditedText": "We come to decision time. I must put six questions to the chamber. I trust that everyone is ready with the new technology and is paying attention. I hope that the announcement about coats has not caused too much excitement. I asked only that members removed what clothing they wished to remove outside the chamber rather than inside. The first question is, that amendment S1M-296.1, in the name of Miss Annabel Goldie, seeking to amend motion S1M-296, in the name of Henry McLeish, on the modernisation of the Scottish economy, be agreed to. Are we agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "We come to decision time. I must put six questions to the chamber. I trust that everyone is ready with the new technology and is paying attention.

I hope that the announcement about coats has not caused too much excitement. I asked only that members removed what clothing they wished to remove outside the chamber rather than inside.

The first question is, that amendment S1M-296.1, in the name of Miss Annabel Goldie, seeking to amend motion S1M-296, in the name of Henry McLeish, on the modernisation of the Scottish economy, be agreed to. Are we agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C712013", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Digital Scotland", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27099, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 599.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 599.0, "ID": 27099, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr George Reid (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 674.0, "ContributionID": 712013, "EditedText": "I will aim to meet that need, Presiding Officer. For me, the central issue of this debate is whether we Scots can achieve a knowledge economy unless we are all an active part of the information society. How is the Parliament doing in that respect? Apparently we are doing rather better than the other place. According to the latest IBM survey, an encouraging number of MSPs have shown a willingness to use IT. Furthermore, this is the only legislature in Europe where every member has a portable laptop with immediate access from remote locations to our parliamentary files and reports. Of course, that raises the interesting subject of where our parliamentary office actually is. However, some of the old attitudes prevail. Moundbite 1: a week ago, when a senior member of the Parliament—who shall remain nameless, Presiding Officer—told me what a hard slog it was working through document after document day after day, I asked him why he did not get his parliamentary assistant to cut and paste the documents. He was not very enthusiastic and said that that would be messy. And then I twigged. He was not thinking electronically, but of his parliamentary assistant sitting cross-legged on the floor with a big scrapbook, a big pair of scissors and a pot of Gloy. Moundbite 2: a busy MSP told me that she did not get her committee papers on time. She did in fact, but as attached files at the end of an e-mail. Moundbite 3 is a suggestion for saving the Parliament several hundred thousand pounds a year. We should do as the Welsh do. There is no daily printing and circulation of papers. If members want papers, they can print them out themselves. If the Welsh can do that, why not us? Moundbite 4 is what the Welsh call a chamberweb. A touch-screen computer is buried in each desk of the Welsh Assembly, giving members on-screen access. I do not like the system very much, although I can see the advantages for members who do not know what to say because no one has told them what to think. However, I suspect that that system is coming to the Parliament as well. I will mention Moundbite 5, and then I will sit down. Around £50,000 is available now for committees to initiate their own forms of social partnership, which could present an opportunity for a perfect mix-and-match with IT. How? We could have an electronic consensus conference on the spreading of organic waste on agricultural land; a bulletin board on drugs in local communities; deliberative polling on section 28; or an internal portal for every convener on a bill when it goes to committee, allowing direct inputs on legislation line by line and section by section. It is important for us in this chamber to make a start on such policies, because nobody owes Scotland a living and we as parliamentarians can give Scotland a lead. And that, Presiding Officer, was three minutes on the button.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will aim to meet that need, Presiding Officer.

For me, the central issue of this debate is whether we Scots can achieve a knowledge economy unless we are all an active part of the information society. How is the Parliament doing in that respect? Apparently we are doing rather better than the other place. According to the latest IBM survey, an encouraging number of MSPs have shown a willingness to use IT. Furthermore, this is the only legislature in Europe where every member has a portable laptop with immediate access from remote locations to our parliamentary files and reports. Of course, that raises the interesting subject of where our parliamentary office actually is.

However, some of the old attitudes prevail. Moundbite 1: a week ago, when a senior member of the Parliament—who shall remain nameless, Presiding Officer—told me what a hard slog it was working through document after document day after day, I asked him why he did not get his parliamentary assistant to cut and paste the documents. He was not very enthusiastic and said that that would be messy. And then I twigged. He was not thinking electronically, but of his parliamentary assistant sitting cross-legged on the floor with a big scrapbook, a big pair of scissors and a pot of Gloy.

Moundbite 2: a busy MSP told me that she did not get her committee papers on time. She did in fact, but as attached files at the end of an e-mail.

Moundbite 3 is a suggestion for saving the Parliament several hundred thousand pounds a year. We should do as the Welsh do. There is no daily printing and circulation of papers. If members want papers, they can print them out themselves. If the Welsh can do that, why not us?

Moundbite 4 is what the Welsh call a chamberweb. A touch-screen computer is buried in each desk of the Welsh Assembly, giving members on-screen access. I do not like the system very much, although I can see the advantages for members who do not know what to say because no one has told them what to think. However, I suspect that that system is coming to the Parliament as well.

I will mention Moundbite 5, and then I will sit down. Around £50,000 is available now for committees to initiate their own forms of social partnership, which could present an opportunity for a perfect mix-and-match with IT. How? We could have an electronic consensus conference on the spreading of organic waste on agricultural land; a bulletin board on drugs in local communities; deliberative polling on section 28; or an internal portal for every convener on a bill when it goes to committee, allowing direct inputs on legislation line by line and section by section.

It is important for us in this chamber to make a start on such policies, because nobody owes Scotland a living and we as parliamentarians can give Scotland a lead.

And that, Presiding Officer, was three minutes on the button.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1775E171P452C712019", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Digital Scotland", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27099, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 599.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 599.0, "ID": 27099, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeod, Fiona", "ID": 1775, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona McLeod", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona McLeod rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 689.0, "ContributionID": 712019, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2167E79P155C712022", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Digital Scotland", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27099, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 599.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 599.0, "ID": 27099, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Peacock, Peter", "ID": 2167, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Peter Peacock", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Peter Peacock: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 695.0, "ContributionID": 712022, "EditedText": "I am afraid that I cannot give way, Michael—you had plenty of time. As to a lack of coherence in Government policy—", "EditedTextHTML": "I am afraid that I cannot give way, Michael—you had plenty of time.

As to a lack of coherence in Government policy—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2167E79P155C712027", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Digital Scotland", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27099, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 599.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 599.0, "ID": 27099, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Peacock, Peter", "ID": 2167, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Peter Peacock", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Peter Peacock: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 705.0, "ContributionID": 712027, "EditedText": "In no sense am I seeking to mislead. I am seeking to clarify—I am pleased that the SNP has reversed its policy. As to the lack of coherence in the Government's strategy, the purpose of the digital Scotland initiative is to bring to the centre of government the coherence that people have criticised us for not having. A number of members talked about how we could co-ordinate expenditure. For example, Nicola Sturgeon asked how we could match up the university for industry investment with the public library investment, the investment in schools technology, the investment in health service technology and so on. The central purpose of the digital Scotland initiative is to ensure that the investment strategies are aligned. Fiona McLeod spoke about wiring up libraries with broadband technology and on the differences that exist between the funding schemes—between Government funding and the new opportunities fund, which is in part paying for that work. I met representatives from the Scottish Library and Information Council and from the new opportunities fund to discuss how we could align our expenditure to obtain maximum advantage from public investment. That is the essence of the digital Scotland initiative and that is what we intend to develop. The initiative is about action, not just plans; it is about creating things and ensuring that they happen. I entirely agree with Fiona McLeod's point about the urgency with which Scotland must embrace what we are seeking to do. As she said, because of the differences between Scotland's use of the internet and its use in other countries, we are in danger of falling behind—or outwith—the modern means of communication. That is why we introduced this debate and why we established the digital Scotland initiative. We recognise the need not only to put Scotland in a leadership position, but to maintain that position. I welcome David Davidson's support for the Government's strategy. In particular, I want to pick up his point about ensuring that all Scotland benefits from the new technologies. That involves real issues. In a developing Scotland, we cannot have two tiers of service because the cost of getting the infrastructure to people who live in the west Highlands, or the Borders, or Dumfries and Galloway is higher than it is for those who live in the city centres. Nor can we allow people— whether they live in the centre of Glasgow or the centre of Stornoway—to be equally disadvantaged because of their economic circumstances. Again, part of the purpose of digital Scotland is to fill the gaps in the existing infrastructure As David Mundell said, there is a huge amount of infrastructure in Scotland. Most of, if not all, Scotland's cities are connected through broadband technology. The wiring, the cable and the fibres exist. Our big challenge is how to fill the gaps. How do we stimulate private investment— which is, rather than direct public investment, probably the way to progress—to ensure that every community in Scotland has access? The answer is partly to marry together the investment programmes we talked about earlier and partly to stimulate new private sector investment, as the private sector sees markets for its future products. The answer is also to liaise with the BBC about digital television. Like Mike Russell, I have an ambition to have the Highlands and Islands connected to digital television much earlier than is currently projected. If we align our investment strategies and recognise the potential of digital television and third-generation mobile technology, there may be opportunities to marry some of the investment strategies and ensure that we do not disadvantage rural Scotland. David Davidson mentioned smart card technology. We could have a debate on that technology alone. I agree with what Mike Russell said about the power of digital television, but we should also consider the impact of smart card technology on digital television. That technology could allow the personalisation of information and the use of the smart card as a verified source to access a whole series of Government services. An entirely new world of service technology could open up to us. We must explore that in detail over the coming months. Ian Jenkins admitted that he had a pacemaker. He should know that some advice suggests that people should not carry their mobile phone next to their pacemaker in case it interrupts the frequency. He was very honest in admitting that he was not comfortable with the technology. In recognising that, he has bridged the gap. He also recognises the fact that many others in Scotland who do not feel comfortable with the technology none the less need to embrace it if our society is to move forward. Ian is right to say that we have to get on to an express train of action. Elaine Thomson made a thoughtful speech about the fundamental impact that the technologies will have on our society. Like George Reid and others, she referred to the need for the Parliament to develop a range of services. That is a matter for the Parliament, rather than for the Executive, but as an MSP I recognise the points that those members made. Alasdair Morgan quite properly referred to the impact that digital technology could have on rural areas. Digital technology has the potential to turn the economic equation of the past on its head. Suddenly, one can advantage rural areas because all the attributes that people are looking for in their use of digital technology—a stable work force, a good environment, low overheads and new lifestyles—exist in those rural areas. There is huge potential and we want it to be exploited. Linda Fabiani talked about skills development, which is fundamental to how we develop the new technologies. We must ensure that we have a computer-literate society. That is why every pupil who comes through school will be fully literate in the use of the technologies. That is why we have invested £23 million in training teachers. That is why librarians are being trained and why new further education and university courses are being developed. Our computer-literate society will also have a people focus, ensuring that we talk not just about the technology, but about the services that we receive as a result of using that technology. Maureen Macmillan described how fundamental technology has been to the development of the University of the Highlands and Islands. The dream of generations of Highlanders is being realised because they have embraced the use of technology in allowing those services to be delivered. I think Mike Russell was right to say that we needed to engage with people in this process. All of us who believe in this must help to excite people throughout Scotland about the possibilities of the technology. Mike is also right to talk about digital television, which will bring the power and technology to a mass audience. Perhaps he was thinking about Mr Salmond's use of Ceefax—", "EditedTextHTML": "In no sense am I seeking to mislead. I am seeking to clarify—I am pleased that the SNP has reversed its policy.

As to the lack of coherence in the Government's strategy, the purpose of the digital Scotland initiative is to bring to the centre of government the coherence that people have criticised us for not having. A number of members talked about how we could co-ordinate expenditure. For example, Nicola Sturgeon asked how we could match up the university for industry investment with the public library investment, the investment in schools technology, the investment in health service technology and so on. The central purpose of the digital Scotland initiative is to ensure that the investment strategies are aligned.

Fiona McLeod spoke about wiring up libraries with broadband technology and on the differences that exist between the funding schemes—between Government funding and the new opportunities fund, which is in part paying for that work. I met representatives from the Scottish Library and

Information Council and from the new opportunities fund to discuss how we could align our expenditure to obtain maximum advantage from public investment. That is the essence of the digital Scotland initiative and that is what we intend to develop. The initiative is about action, not just plans; it is about creating things and ensuring that they happen.

I entirely agree with Fiona McLeod's point about the urgency with which Scotland must embrace what we are seeking to do. As she said, because of the differences between Scotland's use of the internet and its use in other countries, we are in danger of falling behind—or outwith—the modern means of communication. That is why we introduced this debate and why we established the digital Scotland initiative. We recognise the need not only to put Scotland in a leadership position, but to maintain that position.

I welcome David Davidson's support for the Government's strategy. In particular, I want to pick up his point about ensuring that all Scotland benefits from the new technologies. That involves real issues. In a developing Scotland, we cannot have two tiers of service because the cost of getting the infrastructure to people who live in the west Highlands, or the Borders, or Dumfries and Galloway is higher than it is for those who live in the city centres. Nor can we allow people— whether they live in the centre of Glasgow or the centre of Stornoway—to be equally disadvantaged because of their economic circumstances. Again, part of the purpose of digital Scotland is to fill the gaps in the existing infrastructure

As David Mundell said, there is a huge amount of infrastructure in Scotland. Most of, if not all, Scotland's cities are connected through broadband technology. The wiring, the cable and the fibres exist. Our big challenge is how to fill the gaps. How do we stimulate private investment— which is, rather than direct public investment, probably the way to progress—to ensure that every community in Scotland has access? The answer is partly to marry together the investment programmes we talked about earlier and partly to stimulate new private sector investment, as the private sector sees markets for its future products. The answer is also to liaise with the BBC about digital television. Like Mike Russell, I have an ambition to have the Highlands and Islands connected to digital television much earlier than is currently projected. If we align our investment strategies and recognise the potential of digital television and third-generation mobile technology, there may be opportunities to marry some of the investment strategies and ensure that we do not disadvantage rural Scotland.

David Davidson mentioned smart card technology. We could have a debate on that

technology alone. I agree with what Mike Russell said about the power of digital television, but we should also consider the impact of smart card technology on digital television. That technology could allow the personalisation of information and the use of the smart card as a verified source to access a whole series of Government services. An entirely new world of service technology could open up to us. We must explore that in detail over the coming months.

Ian Jenkins admitted that he had a pacemaker. He should know that some advice suggests that people should not carry their mobile phone next to their pacemaker in case it interrupts the frequency. He was very honest in admitting that he was not comfortable with the technology. In recognising that, he has bridged the gap. He also recognises the fact that many others in Scotland who do not feel comfortable with the technology none the less need to embrace it if our society is to move forward. Ian is right to say that we have to get on to an express train of action.

Elaine Thomson made a thoughtful speech about the fundamental impact that the technologies will have on our society. Like George Reid and others, she referred to the need for the Parliament to develop a range of services. That is a matter for the Parliament, rather than for the Executive, but as an MSP I recognise the points that those members made.

Alasdair Morgan quite properly referred to the impact that digital technology could have on rural areas. Digital technology has the potential to turn the economic equation of the past on its head. Suddenly, one can advantage rural areas because all the attributes that people are looking for in their use of digital technology—a stable work force, a good environment, low overheads and new lifestyles—exist in those rural areas. There is huge potential and we want it to be exploited.

Linda Fabiani talked about skills development, which is fundamental to how we develop the new technologies. We must ensure that we have a computer-literate society. That is why every pupil who comes through school will be fully literate in the use of the technologies. That is why we have invested £23 million in training teachers. That is why librarians are being trained and why new further education and university courses are being developed. Our computer-literate society will also have a people focus, ensuring that we talk not just about the technology, but about the services that we receive as a result of using that technology.

Maureen Macmillan described how fundamental technology has been to the development of the University of the Highlands and Islands. The dream of generations of Highlanders is being realised because they have embraced the use of technology in allowing those services to be delivered.

I think Mike Russell was right to say that we needed to engage with people in this process. All of us who believe in this must help to excite people throughout Scotland about the possibilities of the technology. Mike is also right to talk about digital television, which will bring the power and technology to a mass audience. Perhaps he was thinking about Mr Salmond's use of Ceefax—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712034", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27100, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 713.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 713.0, "ID": 27100, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 720.0, "ContributionID": 712034, "EditedText": "FOR Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)AGAINST Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)ABSTENTIONS Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)

AGAINST

Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)

ABSTENTIONS

Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C712035", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27100, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 713.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 713.0, "ID": 27100, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 721.0, "ContributionID": 712035, "EditedText": "The result of the division is: For 16, Against 64, Abstentions 24.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result of the division is: For 16, Against 64, Abstentions 24.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712044", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27100, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 713.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 713.0, "ID": 27100, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 736.0, "ContributionID": 712044, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712045", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27100, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 713.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 713.0, "ID": 27100, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 737.0, "ContributionID": 712045, "EditedText": "That the Parliament acknowledges the very real progress being made to prepare the Scottish economy for the next century, but recognises the growing global competitive pressures it faces, that as a result modernisation of every sector of the Scottish economy will need to be accelerated and that public support is best targeted on initiatives which encourage modernisation.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament acknowledges the very real progress being made to prepare the Scottish economy for the next century, but recognises the growing global competitive pressures it faces, that as a result modernisation of every sector of the Scottish economy will need to be accelerated and that public support is best targeted on initiatives which encourage modernisation.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712050", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27100, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 713.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 713.0, "ID": 27100, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 744.0, "ContributionID": 712050, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712065", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Domestic Water Supply (Bo'ness)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27101, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 764.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 764.0, "ID": 27101, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 768.0, "ContributionID": 712065, "EditedText": "That the Parliament notes with concern the on-going pollution of the domestic water supply in parts of Bo'ness with heavy metals; notes that East of Scotland Water has failed to publish scientific reports into the extent of the pollution and has not operated in an open and accountable manner; notes the potential health risks to the local community and calls for an urgent review of East of Scotland Water's handling of this matter and for related scientific reports to be placed in the public domain.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament notes with concern the on-going pollution of the domestic water supply in parts of Bo'ness with heavy metals; notes that East of Scotland Water has failed to publish scientific reports into the extent of the pollution and has not operated in an open and accountable manner; notes the potential health risks to the local community and calls for an urgent review of East of Scotland Water's handling of this matter and for related scientific reports to be placed in the public domain.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712052", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27100, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 713.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 713.0, "ID": 27100, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 748.0, "ContributionID": 712052, "EditedText": "FOR Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)AGAINST Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)

AGAINST

Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)

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" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712058", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27100, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 713.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 713.0, "ID": 27100, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 758.0, "ContributionID": 712058, "EditedText": "FOR Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)AGAINST Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab) ABSTENTIONS Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)

AGAINST

Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)

ABSTENTIONS

Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C712059", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27100, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 713.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 713.0, "ID": 27100, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 759.0, "ContributionID": 712059, "EditedText": "The result of the division is: For 74, Against 1, Abstentions 30.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result of the division is: For 74, Against 1, Abstentions 30.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "C712062", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27100, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 713.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 713.0, "ID": 27100, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 763.0, "ContributionID": 712062, "EditedText": "believes that every community in Scotland must have high quality access to digital technology and information in the future no matter where they live; and welcomes the creation by the Executive of the Ministerial Committee on Digital Scotland and the Digital Scotland Task Force to create a partnership which will help develop a shared analysis of the challenges and champion the opportunities for Scotland arising from developments in information and communications technology, co-ordinate action and help to create conditions where Scotland can realise the benefits of working at the leading edge of application of those technological developments.", "EditedTextHTML": "believes that every community in Scotland must have high quality access to digital technology and information in the future no matter where they live; and welcomes the creation by the Executive of the Ministerial Committee on Digital Scotland and the Digital Scotland Task Force to create a partnership which will help develop a shared analysis of the challenges and champion the opportunities for Scotland arising from developments in information and communications technology, co-ordinate action and help to create conditions where Scotland can realise the benefits of working at the leading edge of application of those technological developments.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.6076386+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2133E222P520C712078", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Domestic Water Supply (Bo'ness)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27101, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 764.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 764.0, "ID": 27101, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Matheson, Michael", "ID": 2133, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Matheson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Matheson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 799.0, "ContributionID": 712078, "EditedText": "I have a very important point to make.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have a very important point to make.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:20.9827029+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2133E222P520C711875", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27073, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 359.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27074, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 360.0, "QuestionHeading": "Freedom of Information", "QuestionHeadingID": 27075, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 361.0, "DisplayOrder": 361.0, "ID": 27075, "ParentID": 27074 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Matheson, Michael", "ID": 2133, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Matheson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "1. Michael Matheson (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 362.0, "ContributionID": 711875, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what provision will be made in order to enforce any future freedom of information legislation. (S1O648) The Lord Advocate (Lord Hardie): Before answering the question, I should explain that Jim Wallace is unable to be here today because he is attending a funeral. The questions directed to him have therefore been reallocated. The Executive's proposed approach to enforcing a statutory freedom of information regime will be set out in the consultation document to be published later this month.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what provision will be made in order to enforce any future freedom of information legislation. (S1O648) The Lord Advocate (Lord Hardie): Before answering the question, I should explain that Jim Wallace is unable to be here today because he is attending a funeral. The questions directed to him have therefore been reallocated.

The Executive's proposed approach to enforcing a statutory freedom of information regime will be set out in the consultation document to be published later this month.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:12.769626+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C711927", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27073, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 359.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27074, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 360.0, "QuestionHeading": "Portmoak Airfield", "QuestionHeadingID": 27088, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 474.0, "DisplayOrder": 474.0, "ID": 27088, "ParentID": 27074 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 479.0, "ContributionID": 711927, "EditedText": "I am aware that an appeal about further development in that area is currently in abeyance. The issue is being considered and the council, the air operators and representatives of the equestrian centre are in negotiations. It is hoped that a mutually acceptable solution will be arrived at. If there is no resolution, the appeal will come back on the agenda. I assure Mr Johnston that the issues of safety that he raises will be taken on board by the Scottish Executive reporter when considering any appeal.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am aware that an appeal about further development in that area is currently in abeyance. The issue is being considered and the council, the air operators and representatives of the equestrian centre are in negotiations. It is hoped that a mutually acceptable solution will be arrived at. If there is no resolution, the appeal will come back on the agenda. I assure Mr Johnston that the issues of safety that he raises will be taken on board by the Scottish Executive reporter when considering any appeal.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:08.9207112+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C711930", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27073, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 359.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27074, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 360.0, "QuestionHeading": "Rail Network (Coal Transportation)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27089, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 481.0, "DisplayOrder": 481.0, "ID": 27089, "ParentID": 27074 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 486.0, "ContributionID": 711930, "EditedText": "I am aware of the significance of the transportation of coal by EWS. The lead in addressing that matter has already been taken by Brian Wilson at the Scotland Office. He has been keeping Henry McLeish and me fully informed of developments and we are all trying to address the issue. The Office of the Rail Regulator is critical in terms of ensuring that there is a proper judgment on this issue and that full attention is given to it.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am aware of the significance of the transportation of coal by EWS. The lead in addressing that matter has already been taken by Brian Wilson at the Scotland Office. He has been keeping Henry McLeish and me fully informed of developments and we are all trying to address the issue. The Office of the Rail Regulator is critical in terms of ensuring that there is a proper judgment on this issue and that full attention is given to it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:08.9207112+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C711731", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 57.0, "ContributionID": 711731, "EditedText": "Will the minister tell Parliament what consultation the Scottish Executive had with the chancellor prior to the preparation of the pre- budget report?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister tell Parliament what consultation the Scottish Executive had with the chancellor prior to the preparation of the pre- budget report?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:00:40.1346265+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2110E214P424C711741", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gibson, Kenneth", "ID": 2110, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenneth Gibson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Kenneth Gibson (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 77.0, "ContributionID": 711741, "EditedText": "Is not it the case that the Minister for Transport and the Environment has not accepted that the M74 northern extension is a strategic road, despite the fact that the \"Complete to Compete Report on the M74 Northern Extension\" suggests that failure to accept the fact that the M74 northern extension is a strategic road and must go ahead will cost Glasgow between 6,100 and 6,800 manufacturing jobs?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is not it the case that the Minister for Transport and the Environment has not accepted that the M74 northern extension is a strategic road, despite the fact that the \"Complete to Compete Report on the M74 Northern Extension\" suggests that failure to accept the fact that the M74 northern extension is a strategic road and must go ahead will cost Glasgow between 6,100 and 6,800 manufacturing jobs?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:01:27.8453423+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C711747", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 90.0, "ContributionID": 711747, "EditedText": "The minister will not be surprised to hear that I will address that point later in my speech and give him some specifics that he can chew over with his extensive range of advisers. I notice that the SNP's pleas for a comprehensive economic strategy for Scotland have reached the ears of the First Minister. He is going to make a speech tonight about the launch of the economic strategy for Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "The minister will not be surprised to hear that I will address that point later in my speech and give him some specifics that he can chew over with his extensive range of advisers.

I notice that the SNP's pleas for a comprehensive economic strategy for Scotland have reached the ears of the First Minister. He is going to make a speech tonight about the launch of the economic strategy for Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:01:27.8453423+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C711751", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 98.0, "ContributionID": 711751, "EditedText": "That was a helpful comment from Mr Neil. I will move on. A comprehensive economic strategy for Scotland, designed to develop and equip our economy for future challenges, would take many of the issues raised by the \"Pathfinders to the Parliament\" document—on electronics, transportation, manufacturing, textiles, tourism and the small business sector—to heart and build a coherent picture of what we are trying to achieve. The points that Murray Tosh and Kenny Gibson made about the transport infrastructure are vital. We must draw those aspects together into a cohesive strategy for the future of the Scottish economy. That strategy must also have strong linkages to the existing tenets of economic development strategy in Scotland, particularly the cluster strategy that Scottish Enterprise has launched. I notice that the First Minister is making his speech tonight at the Bank of Scotland dinner in Glasgow. I hope that the evening gives him an understanding of the need for the Scottish Executive to consider seriously the involvement of the financial services sector in the cluster strategy. That sector has developed enormous competitive strength for the Scottish economy over many years. The Scottish Executive should not just build on the professionalism and high-quality employment that exists in the financial services sector in Scotland; it should provide an engagement between the enterprise agencies, the Scottish Executive and that sector to entrench our global position in financial services and build a powerful set of companies with professional expertise at their disposal. That sector is a prime target for the development of dynamic thinking about how to adjust our economy to new challenges and methods of generating wealth. I hope that the Executive takes that message on board. In searching for this economic strategy for Scotland, we must be aware that not all of the devices that we need to use will be at our disposal. We are a devolved Parliament and to create that economic vision we must be able to use macro-economic powers. Last week, the chancellor announced his pre- budget report. He called for a range of measures to stimulate an entrepreneurial culture in the UK. He concentrated on creating the right incentives for entrepreneurs and ensuring that young people learn the right skills to take advantage of a more entrepreneurial Britain. He called for the promotion and growth of business in deprived areas. He announced a huge programme of investment in the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and Cambridge University partnership. He talked of tax incentives and tax reliefs. If those initiatives are not at the heart of the use of macro-economic powers to change, modernise and reconfigure the economic base of a country, I do not know what are. That is why our amendment refers to the need for the Scottish Parliament to be able to use macro-economic powers to deliver measures and initiatives that will be right for the Scottish economy. I asked the minister what consultation there had been with the Scottish Executive about the contents of that report and what attempt there had been to secure synergy between the chancellor's announcements and the work of the Scottish Executive. Other than \"on-going discussions\", there was not an awful lot in the minister's answer. We have often found out that the use of macroeconomic powers is of enormous influence in the pattern of the Scottish economy. As we found with interest rates, those powers are not often used in the best interests of Scotland within the context of UK macro-economic policy. The minister made a comment about the formidable performance of our exporting sector. I would be the last person to decry the exporting sector in Scotland, other than saying that it is too narrowly focused, which is a real issue that we must wrestle with. It is hardly surprising that, over the past few months, there has been an improvement in our export performance, given the seriousness of the problems with which the export sector has been wrestling over the past two years because of high interest rates. As we consider the degree of change the Scottish economy requires, we must have confidence that the Executive has in place the measures to manage transition away from our traditional manufacturing base. We need to hear from the Executive how its approach to managing that transition differs from the economic dislocation that the Tories brought about in the 1980s. Measures need to be taken to ensure a smooth transition from dependence on the older, heavier industries to reliance on the newer, growth industries. When considering how to modernise the Scottish economy, we must, as the Executive's motion suggests, be clear about what we are encouraging Scottish companies to do. The SNP supports encouraging companies to befriend information technology, to improve their business and manufacturing processes, to invest in new technology and new plant, to empower their staff and motivate them in a culture of lifelong learning, to change arm's-length suppliers into committed partners, and to embrace e-commerce. All those initiatives are important, but they are not enough. I am happy that the Scottish Executive and the economic development agencies are advocating modernisation and pointing to the advantages that will accrue to companies that adopt modern practices and technologies to meet customer needs, but effective business people will modernise only when it will make their businesses more profitable and competitive. If they see clear- cut advantages in doing so, it will be hard to stop them modernising. As a result, they should be able to gain access to the finance that is needed to support that. If we are setting out a comprehensive strategy for modernising the Scottish economy, we must relate to the real issues that face business as it tries to change, to achieve more sustainable profitability and to deliver competitiveness. We must be aware of three key issues that impact on business profitability and competitiveness: education; retained earnings; and research and development. With those in mind, I will set out our views on the challenges that we face. In my opinion, an economic development strategy must encompass the three key factors that I have mentioned. Our European partners in Ireland have taught us how to modernise by investing heavily in education over a period of not a couple of years, but 20 years. Ireland is now winning new inward investors and experiencing high levels of indigenous business growth as a result of that 20-year investment. Most serious business people in Scotland now recognise their absolute need for educated staff and the benefits that flow from motivating and rewarding them. Investment in education is a vital component in creating the base on which we can build. The second issue is retained earnings. In last week's The Economist, I noticed an advertisement that had been placed by the Austrian Government, stating that Austrian companies retain 83 per cent of their profits after total corporate taxes. That gives Austria the third lowest level of corporate tax in western Europe, behind Ireland and Portugal. The experience in Austria has been that lower corporate taxes encourage new businesses to start, foreign business to move in and the reinvestment of profits. If we in Scotland had access to macro-economic powers, we could deliver competitive advantage to our companies and to companies interested in building their activities base in Scotland by offering flexibility on business taxation, which is currently outwith the powers of this Parliament. On research and development, we have some stiff lessons to learn. The Scottish Enterprise network strategy document that was published in January this year included a graph showing the amount spent on research and development as a percentage of gross domestic product in Scotland in 1996. The graph shows that Scotland invests less than half as much as a percentage of GDP as England, and less than a third as much as Japan. That looks bad, but when we take into account the fact that Japan's GDP per capita is approximately twice that of Scotland, it becomes clear that we are investing at less than one sixth of the Japanese level. If the minister tries to quieten my fears by saying that those frightening statistics reflect the fact that many Scottish businesses are owned from outwith Scotland, he will fail to reassure me. We need a secure headquarters base in Scotland for our businesses, with high value-added posts, so that real decisions can be taken here on investment in the future of individual companies. We need an economic strategy to modernise the Scottish economy that draws on three fundamental strengths: investment in education; a competitive business tax regime; and the capacity of companies to invest in their organisations here in Scotland. I am pleased that the Government is coming forward with an economic strategy for Scotland—if that is what it is doing—because such a strategy is required to draw together the proliferation of initiatives. However, it will face many challenges because of the limitations on this Parliament's powers to reduce the burden of business taxation and to take the quantum leaps that are required in investment in education and research and development. I fear that too much of the thinking that goes into the Executive's strategy will be directed from London and will lack input from this Parliament, our ministers and businesses in Scotland. As the Government mulls over its economic strategy, I hope that it will have the vision that is required to assess the pace of change that we are experiencing. We may applaud jobs in new call centres—and I do. We may appreciate and admire the technological advances that are being made— and I welcome them. We can see that new jobs are being created, but we must realise that the pace of change is so fast and fierce that the perspective of any economic strategy must span more than two, three, five or even 10 years. It must equip Scotland for a reconfiguration of our economy that will last us for the truly revolutionary period to which the minister referred. It must last us well into the next millennium, to ensure that we do more than just catch up—as I fear we are doing at the moment—with the economic forces and powers that are at work in other fast-growing economies around the world. The strategy should allow us to lead that process with dynamism and vitality, as many sectors in Scotland have done in the past. We can do that if we harness the powers of this Parliament and acquire for it the power to shape the macro-economic future of Scotland, on which our prosperity will be built. I move amendment S1M-296.2, to leave out from \"encourage\" to end and insert: \"will create new wealth and sustainable employment but regrets that these ambitions will be difficult to realise due to the absence of macro-economic powers from this Parliament.\"", "EditedTextHTML": "That was a helpful comment from Mr Neil. I will move on.

A comprehensive economic strategy for Scotland, designed to develop and equip our economy for future challenges, would take many of the issues raised by the \"Pathfinders to the Parliament\" document—on electronics, transportation, manufacturing, textiles, tourism and the small business sector—to heart and build a coherent picture of what we are trying to achieve.

The points that Murray Tosh and Kenny Gibson made about the transport infrastructure are vital. We must draw those aspects together into a cohesive strategy for the future of the Scottish economy. That strategy must also have strong linkages to the existing tenets of economic development strategy in Scotland, particularly the cluster strategy that Scottish Enterprise has launched.

I notice that the First Minister is making his speech tonight at the Bank of Scotland dinner in Glasgow. I hope that the evening gives him an understanding of the need for the Scottish Executive to consider seriously the involvement of the financial services sector in the cluster strategy. That sector has developed enormous competitive strength for the Scottish economy over many years.

The Scottish Executive should not just build on the professionalism and high-quality employment that exists in the financial services sector in Scotland; it should provide an engagement between the enterprise agencies, the Scottish Executive and that sector to entrench our global position in financial services and build a powerful set of companies with professional expertise at their disposal. That sector is a prime target for the development of dynamic thinking about how to adjust our economy to new challenges and methods of generating wealth. I hope that the Executive takes that message on board.

In searching for this economic strategy for Scotland, we must be aware that not all of the devices that we need to use will be at our disposal. We are a devolved Parliament and to create that economic vision we must be able to use macro-economic powers.

Last week, the chancellor announced his pre- budget report. He called for a range of measures to stimulate an entrepreneurial culture in the UK. He concentrated on creating the right incentives for entrepreneurs and ensuring that young people learn the right skills to take advantage of a more entrepreneurial Britain. He called for the promotion and growth of business in deprived areas. He announced a huge programme of investment in the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and Cambridge University partnership. He talked of tax incentives and tax reliefs.

If those initiatives are not at the heart of the use of macro-economic powers to change, modernise and reconfigure the economic base of a country, I do not know what are. That is why our amendment refers to the need for the Scottish Parliament to be able to use macro-economic powers to deliver measures and initiatives that will be right for the Scottish economy.

I asked the minister what consultation there had been with the Scottish Executive about the

contents of that report and what attempt there had been to secure synergy between the chancellor's announcements and the work of the Scottish Executive. Other than \"on-going discussions\", there was not an awful lot in the minister's answer. We have often found out that the use of macroeconomic powers is of enormous influence in the pattern of the Scottish economy.

As we found with interest rates, those powers are not often used in the best interests of Scotland within the context of UK macro-economic policy. The minister made a comment about the formidable performance of our exporting sector. I would be the last person to decry the exporting sector in Scotland, other than saying that it is too narrowly focused, which is a real issue that we must wrestle with.

It is hardly surprising that, over the past few months, there has been an improvement in our export performance, given the seriousness of the problems with which the export sector has been wrestling over the past two years because of high interest rates.

As we consider the degree of change the Scottish economy requires, we must have confidence that the Executive has in place the measures to manage transition away from our traditional manufacturing base. We need to hear from the Executive how its approach to managing that transition differs from the economic dislocation that the Tories brought about in the 1980s. Measures need to be taken to ensure a smooth transition from dependence on the older, heavier industries to reliance on the newer, growth industries.

When considering how to modernise the Scottish economy, we must, as the Executive's motion suggests, be clear about what we are encouraging Scottish companies to do. The SNP supports encouraging companies to befriend information technology, to improve their business and manufacturing processes, to invest in new technology and new plant, to empower their staff and motivate them in a culture of lifelong learning, to change arm's-length suppliers into committed partners, and to embrace e-commerce. All those initiatives are important, but they are not enough.

I am happy that the Scottish Executive and the economic development agencies are advocating modernisation and pointing to the advantages that will accrue to companies that adopt modern practices and technologies to meet customer needs, but effective business people will modernise only when it will make their businesses more profitable and competitive. If they see clear- cut advantages in doing so, it will be hard to stop them modernising. As a result, they should be able to gain access to the finance that is needed to support that.

If we are setting out a comprehensive strategy for modernising the Scottish economy, we must relate to the real issues that face business as it tries to change, to achieve more sustainable profitability and to deliver competitiveness. We must be aware of three key issues that impact on business profitability and competitiveness: education; retained earnings; and research and development. With those in mind, I will set out our views on the challenges that we face.

In my opinion, an economic development strategy must encompass the three key factors that I have mentioned. Our European partners in Ireland have taught us how to modernise by investing heavily in education over a period of not a couple of years, but 20 years. Ireland is now winning new inward investors and experiencing high levels of indigenous business growth as a result of that 20-year investment. Most serious business people in Scotland now recognise their absolute need for educated staff and the benefits that flow from motivating and rewarding them. Investment in education is a vital component in creating the base on which we can build.

The second issue is retained earnings. In last week's The Economist, I noticed an advertisement that had been placed by the Austrian Government, stating that Austrian companies retain 83 per cent of their profits after total corporate taxes. That gives Austria the third lowest level of corporate tax in western Europe, behind Ireland and Portugal. The experience in Austria has been that lower corporate taxes encourage new businesses to start, foreign business to move in and the reinvestment of profits. If we in Scotland had access to macro-economic powers, we could deliver competitive advantage to our companies and to companies interested in building their activities base in Scotland by offering flexibility on business taxation, which is currently outwith the powers of this Parliament.

On research and development, we have some stiff lessons to learn. The Scottish Enterprise network strategy document that was published in January this year included a graph showing the amount spent on research and development as a percentage of gross domestic product in Scotland in 1996. The graph shows that Scotland invests less than half as much as a percentage of GDP as England, and less than a third as much as Japan. That looks bad, but when we take into account the fact that Japan's GDP per capita is approximately twice that of Scotland, it becomes clear that we are investing at less than one sixth of the Japanese level. If the minister tries to quieten my fears by saying that those frightening statistics reflect the fact that many Scottish businesses are owned from outwith Scotland, he will fail to reassure me. We need a secure headquarters base in Scotland for our businesses, with high

value-added posts, so that real decisions can be taken here on investment in the future of individual companies.

We need an economic strategy to modernise the Scottish economy that draws on three fundamental strengths: investment in education; a competitive business tax regime; and the capacity of companies to invest in their organisations here in Scotland.

I am pleased that the Government is coming forward with an economic strategy for Scotland—if that is what it is doing—because such a strategy is required to draw together the proliferation of initiatives. However, it will face many challenges because of the limitations on this Parliament's powers to reduce the burden of business taxation and to take the quantum leaps that are required in investment in education and research and development. I fear that too much of the thinking that goes into the Executive's strategy will be directed from London and will lack input from this Parliament, our ministers and businesses in Scotland.

As the Government mulls over its economic strategy, I hope that it will have the vision that is required to assess the pace of change that we are experiencing. We may applaud jobs in new call centres—and I do. We may appreciate and admire the technological advances that are being made— and I welcome them. We can see that new jobs are being created, but we must realise that the pace of change is so fast and fierce that the perspective of any economic strategy must span more than two, three, five or even 10 years. It must equip Scotland for a reconfiguration of our economy that will last us for the truly revolutionary period to which the minister referred. It must last us well into the next millennium, to ensure that we do more than just catch up—as I fear we are doing at the moment—with the economic forces and powers that are at work in other fast-growing economies around the world. The strategy should allow us to lead that process with dynamism and vitality, as many sectors in Scotland have done in the past. We can do that if we harness the powers of this Parliament and acquire for it the power to shape the macro-economic future of Scotland, on which our prosperity will be built.

I move amendment S1M-296.2, to leave out from \"encourage\" to end and insert:

\"will create new wealth and sustainable employment but regrets that these ambitions will be difficult to realise due to the absence of macro-economic powers from this Parliament.\"

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:01:27.8453423+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1857E136P222C711892", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27073, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 359.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27074, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 360.0, "QuestionHeading": "Female Offenders", "QuestionHeadingID": 27079, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 399.0, "DisplayOrder": 399.0, "ID": 27079, "ParentID": 27074 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeill, Pauline", "ID": 1857, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Kelvin" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Pauline McNeill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "5. Pauline McNeill (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 400.0, "ContributionID": 711892, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it is considering options for alternatives to prison for female offenders. (S1O-625) The Deputy Minister for Social Inclusion, Equality and the Voluntary Sector (Jackie Baillie): The Executive is seeking other options for female offenders and an inter-agency forum has been established to identify practical alternatives to custody for that group.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it is considering options for alternatives to prison for female offenders. (S1O-625) The Deputy Minister for Social Inclusion, Equality and the Voluntary Sector (Jackie Baillie): The Executive is seeking other options for female offenders and an inter-agency forum has been established to identify practical alternatives to custody for that group.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:05:19.2124205+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1857E136P222C711893", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27073, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 359.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27074, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 360.0, "QuestionHeading": "Female Offenders", "QuestionHeadingID": 27079, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 399.0, "DisplayOrder": 399.0, "ID": 27079, "ParentID": 27074 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeill, Pauline", "ID": 1857, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Kelvin" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Pauline McNeill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Pauline McNeill: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 402.0, "ContributionID": 711893, "EditedText": "The minister will be aware that Kate Donegan, governor of Cornton Vale, said last week that the prison was being hit by a tidal wave of damaged and vulnerable women, despite growing calls for alternatives to prison sentences. Will the minister publish details of existing community service schemes and can she give a commitment today to work towards increasing the number of such schemes in order to widen the availability of alternatives to prison?", "EditedTextHTML": "The minister will be aware that Kate Donegan, governor of Cornton Vale, said last week that the prison was being hit by a tidal wave of damaged and vulnerable women, despite growing calls for alternatives to prison sentences. Will the minister publish details of existing community service schemes and can she give a commitment today to work towards increasing the number of such schemes in order to widen the availability of alternatives to prison?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:05:19.2124205+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1783E59P270C711972", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27094, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 518.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27095, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 519.0, "QuestionHeading": "Anti-social Neighbour Orders", "QuestionHeadingID": 27098, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 570.0, "DisplayOrder": 570.0, "ID": 27098, "ParentID": 27095 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Baillie, Jackie", "ID": 1783, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumbarton" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Jackie Baillie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Jackie Baillie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 579.0, "ContributionID": 711972, "EditedText": "Naturally, I share Fiona's concern about racial harassment. I hope that members support the fact that such harassment is not welcome in the Scotland of tomorrow. We must examine the implementation of the current anti-social behaviour orders. We will then be able to review the matter and come back to Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "Naturally, I share Fiona's concern about racial harassment. I hope that members support the fact that such harassment is not welcome in the Scotland of tomorrow.

We must examine the implementation of the current anti-social behaviour orders. We will then be able to review the matter and come back to Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:06:33.7651873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C711778", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 154.0, "ContributionID": 711778, "EditedText": "I was struck by a feature—this confirms Mr Lyon's point—of the business taxation agenda in the pre-budget report. The chancellor tended to concentrate on headline business taxation for larger companies but had nothing to say on the business taxation regime as it affects smaller companies—for example, he had nothing to say on class 4 national insurance contributions. Does Mr Lyon share that view?", "EditedTextHTML": "I was struck by a feature—this confirms Mr Lyon's point—of the business taxation agenda in the pre-budget report. The chancellor tended to concentrate on headline business taxation for larger companies but had nothing to say on the business taxation regime as it affects smaller companies—for example, he had nothing to say on class 4 national insurance contributions. Does Mr Lyon share that view?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:02:32.7857179+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2110E214P424C711799", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27070, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 45.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 45.0, "ID": 27070, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gibson, Kenneth", "ID": 2110, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenneth Gibson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Gibson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 204.0, "ContributionID": 711799, "EditedText": "Is Mr McMahon aware of the report on regional unemployment published by Sheffield Hallam University in July, which states that, in Glasgow, the want-to-work rate—the Trades Union Congress measure of real unemployment— stands at 30.7 per cent? Does he accept that that is a savage indictment not only of 18 years of Tory misrule, which cost the city of Glasgow 70,000 manufacturing jobs, but of the new Labour Government, which has failed to tackle the problem appropriately in the two and a half years since it was elected?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is Mr McMahon aware of the report on regional unemployment published by Sheffield Hallam University in July, which states that, in Glasgow, the want-to-work rate—the Trades Union Congress measure of real unemployment— stands at 30.7 per cent? Does he accept that that is a savage indictment not only of 18 years of Tory misrule, which cost the city of Glasgow 70,000 manufacturing jobs, but of the new Labour Government, which has failed to tackle the problem appropriately in the two and a half years since it was elected?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:02:32.7857179+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1857E136P222C712011", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 Nov 1999", "ID": 4192 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Digital Scotland", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27099, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 599.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 599.0, "ID": 27099, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeill, Pauline", "ID": 1857, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Kelvin" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Pauline McNeill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Pauline McNeill (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 669.0, "ContributionID": 712011, "EditedText": "We all agree that there has been no greater impact on contemporary society than the revolution in information technology. Of course, Scots have historically always been at the head of technological advancement, notably inventing the television and the telephone. As Ian Jenkins said earlier, it is hard to imagine what life would be like for MSPs if we did not have a cellphone at the ready, a pager by our side, a researcher with e-mail, and a willing pair of hands to fax important bits of paper to us. Nowadays, it is possible to divert our home phones to our mobile phones, our mobile phones to our pagers. Before much longer we will be cutting out the middle man and our fax machines will be sending messages to our e-mails to be diverted back to our phones. The microchip has enabled us to do all this and more, yet we have seen only the tip of the iceberg. Digitisation is all about the production of information that is recorded as a succession of discrete units rather than as a continuously varying analogue parameter. In essence, it means that things such as radio interference and the overlapping of broadcasting stations on the airways will soon be things of the past. In the past few years, we have seen an unprecedented effort throughout the world to assemble frameworks that will enable countries to manage their transition into information-intensive societies. In the past five years or so, many countries have tried to put in place sets of policies that have two broad purposes in common: to ensure that full advantage is taken of the new opportunities, but, at the same time, to avoid the undesirable consequences that can arise from such developments. Digital Scotland seeks to ensure that every citizen can access all the information and skills that he or she requires, regardless of geographical accidents of birth. A strategy must safeguard the needs and interests of Scotland's citizens as well as the interests of producers and administrators. Only this morning, BT announced that one quarter of all its calls in the United Kingdom were on-line calls, and that it would have some difficulty coping if that number were to increase. We need to take an approach that assists business in overcoming such difficulties and that enables progress in technological development. E-commerce, e-shopping, e-procurement and e- everything are becoming features of everyday life, and it is e-ssential for a successful Scottish economy to be geared up to compete in the global economy. As stated in Peter Peacock's motion: \"Scotland must seize the opportunities offered to gain competitive economic advantage.\" I welcome the creation of the ministerial committee on digital Scotland. The task force will be needed to ensure that future developments are managed on a nationwide basis. In that regard, Government has a responsibility to business and to the community. E-business is defined as an exchange of value over the internet. The projection is that it will grow by $3 trillion by 2002. We must therefore ensure that we have a telecommunications infrastructure of the highest specifications. In popular music, my own field of interest, MP3 is set to revolutionise the way in which people consume popular music. With MP3, it is now possible to surf the net and download audio files of our favourite music in a matter of minutes, avoiding both the cost of buying a CD and the effort of going to a record shop, although I know that there are some legalities involved that we may have to address in the future. While helping to create the conditions for business and commerce to take advantage of the super-highway, we must recognise the potential advantages of the digital age for our communities and for the prospect of a digital democracy. Scottish Labour recognises that our full potential cannot be realised unless we devote our resources to the whole community. The knowledge economy can only be meaningful and successful if we link up schools, libraries and communities. The national grid for learning and the university for industry are doing that. Access to computers and the digital economy cannot be allowed to be a social exclusion issue. In Scotland, schemes exist to recycle refurbished computers for schools and as community resources. The Scottish School Board Association runs a scheme, known as the furbie scheme, that is to be commended for leading the way in the recycling of computers. If we can give access to technology to all Scotland's population, we can move up to another level, by looking at digital democracy. We have taken the lead already in what we have done in the Scottish Parliament. In summary, the difference between the motion and the amendment is perhaps a question of emphasis. I commend the contribution that Fiona McLeod has made to the debate. We are trying to achieve a national information strategy, but we are doing it in a different way. We recognise that we cannot affect the global economy by ourselves, and that we have to start by challenging what we do in Scotland first.", "EditedTextHTML": "We all agree that there has been no greater impact on contemporary society than the revolution in information technology. Of course, Scots have historically always been at the head of technological advancement, notably inventing the television and the telephone.

As Ian Jenkins said earlier, it is hard to imagine what life would be like for MSPs if we did not have a cellphone at the ready, a pager by our side, a researcher with e-mail, and a willing pair of hands to fax important bits of paper to us. Nowadays, it is possible to divert our home phones to our mobile phones, our mobile phones to our pagers. Before much longer we will be cutting out the middle man and our fax machines will be sending messages to our e-mails to be diverted back to our phones.

The microchip has enabled us to do all this and more, yet we have seen only the tip of the iceberg. Digitisation is all about the production of information that is recorded as a succession of discrete units rather than as a continuously varying analogue parameter. In essence, it means that things such as radio interference and the overlapping of broadcasting stations on the airways will soon be things of the past.

In the past few years, we have seen an unprecedented effort throughout the world to assemble frameworks that will enable countries to manage their transition into information-intensive societies. In the past five years or so, many countries have tried to put in place sets of policies that have two broad purposes in common: to ensure that full advantage is taken of the new opportunities, but, at the same time, to avoid the undesirable consequences that can arise from such developments.

Digital Scotland seeks to ensure that every citizen can access all the information and skills that he or she requires, regardless of geographical accidents of birth. A strategy must safeguard the needs and interests of Scotland's citizens as well as the interests of producers and administrators.

Only this morning, BT announced that one quarter of all its calls in the United Kingdom were on-line calls, and that it would have some difficulty coping if that number were to increase. We need to take an approach that assists business in overcoming such difficulties and that enables progress in technological development.

E-commerce, e-shopping, e-procurement and e- everything are becoming features of everyday life, and it is e-ssential for a successful Scottish economy to be geared up to compete in the global economy. As stated in Peter Peacock's motion:

\"Scotland must seize the opportunities offered to gain competitive economic advantage.\"

I welcome the creation of the ministerial committee on digital Scotland. The task force will be needed to ensure that future developments are managed on a nationwide basis. In that regard, Government has a responsibility to business and to the community.

E-business is defined as an exchange of value over the internet. The projection is that it will grow by $3 trillion by 2002. We must therefore ensure that we have a telecommunications infrastructure of the highest specifications.

In popular music, my own field of interest, MP3 is set to revolutionise the way in which people consume popular music. With MP3, it is now possible to surf the net and download audio files of our favourite music in a matter of minutes, avoiding both the cost of buying a CD and the effort of going to a record shop, although I know that there are some legalities involved that we may have to address in the future.

While helping to create the conditions for business and commerce to take advantage of the super-highway, we must recognise the potential advantages of the digital age for our communities and for the prospect of a digital democracy.

Scottish Labour recognises that our full potential cannot be realised unless we devote our resources to the whole community. The knowledge economy can only be meaningful and successful if we link up schools, libraries and communities. The national grid for learning and the university for industry are doing that. Access to computers and the digital economy cannot be allowed to be a social exclusion issue. In Scotland, schemes exist to recycle refurbished computers for schools and as community resources. The Scottish School Board Association runs a scheme, known as the furbie scheme, that is to be commended for leading the way in the recycling of computers.

If we can give access to technology to all Scotland's population, we can move up to another level, by looking at digital democracy. We have taken the lead already in what we have done in the Scottish Parliament.

In summary, the difference between the motion and the amendment is perhaps a question of emphasis. I commend the contribution that Fiona McLeod has made to the debate. We are trying to

achieve a national information strategy, but we are doing it in a different way. We recognise that we cannot affect the global economy by ourselves, and that we have to start by challenging what we do in Scotland first.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:07:49.5373224+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C711636", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Nov 1999", "ID": 4191 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Child Care Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27065, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27065, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 19.0, "ContributionID": 711636, "EditedText": "Not just now; let me get into my stride. Early education and child care should not be a political battleground. We have a shared interest in securing for every child in Scotland accessible and high-quality care and education that serves the interests and needs both of children and of parents. That presents a challenge for us all. For those of us in opposition, the challenge is to be constructive—that is the spirit with which the SNP approaches today's debate. For the Executive, the challenge is to be inclusive, to listen to and consider new ideas, not to dismiss them simply because they come from the Opposition. I urge the ministers, Sam Galbraith and Peter Peacock, to do that today. Although we have come a long way, there is still a great deal to be done. If I have a criticism of the Executive's motion, it is that it smacks of complacency. Now is not the time to stand still or to rest on our laurels. It is time to push ahead with developing the strategy and addressing the weaknesses that exist. That is what the SNP's amendment seeks to do. It does not deny what has been achieved, as Sam Galbraith implied. It says, \"Yes, we have come a long way, but let us ensure that we keep moving forward.\" That is why I am sorry that the Executive has decided not to support the amendment. It should have been possible to move forward on the basis of consensus. The SNP believes that further work is needed, such as on making child care even more affordable. Some of my colleagues will touch on issues relating to the working families tax credit. They will also explore in more detail issues such as the funding and management of child care, further integration and the quality of service provided. I will touch on a few of those issues and put forward positive proposals, which I hope, in the spirit of consensus, will be given due consideration by the Executive. Sam Galbraith spent most of his time talking about funding. The motion mentions \"the substantially increased allocation of funding to local authorities in 2000-01\". Contrary to his opening comments, I do not deny that more money has been made available over that period. However, an important question lies behind that fact: what happens after that period? Until the end of 2000-01, grants to local authorities are ring-fenced to allow for the expansion of the provision of pre-school education but, afterwards, funding for child care will be included in grant- aided expenditure. The creation of pre-school places for three and four-year-olds is one thing; sustaining those places in the long term out of already stretched education budgets, which are subject to many other pressures, is another thing altogether. The issue cannot be dodged, because the forthcoming education bill—as far as we know—is likely to make pre-school provision for three and four-year-olds a statutory obligation on local authorities. I have heard from a number of people in local authorities—practitioners in the field. They say that, although there have been positive noises—like those that we have heard from ministers today—about funding in the long term, no concrete commitments have been made. I hope that that will change today and that the deputy minister, who I assume will be summing up, will address that. We should not be talking only about sustaining what we achieve over the next few years; we must also be looking to further expand free nursery provision and make it full time, rather than part time. I hope that all members agree that that should be the end objective. That will be impossible unless serious consideration is given now to securing long-term, sustainable funding. The same funding problem exists in the provision of out-of-school places. As Sam Galbraith said, most of the money for new out-of-school places—£25 million—is coming from the new opportunities fund. Incidentally, that is the only substantial part of Scotland's education budget that is not devolved to the Scottish Parliament, giving rise to the ridiculous situation in which the Scottish Executive can set the strategy but cannot ensure the funding to implement it. That is another debate, however. What is important to note in this debate is that money from the new opportunities fund is available only for new or expanded projects, which leaves existing services without adequate financial support. I know from my area, and other members will have similar experiences—Interruption. Sam Galbraith may laugh, but he should talk to people on the ground who are experiencing problems. Well-used out-of-school projects are finding it difficult to survive because they cannot access lottery funds. Is that a sensible way in which to proceed? Of greater concern is the fact that lottery funding is available only for one year. As Sam Galbraith said, the lottery provides start-up funding but, after the first year, on-going funding must be found from elsewhere. The question that that poses for Sam Galbraith is, \"From where?\" Either new projects must become self-financing—presumably through increased charges to parents—or, as is much more likely, the on-going burden will fall on local authorities. I understand that lottery funding is, by its nature, short term. That begs the question: should we rely so heavily on the lottery to pay for essential child care services? I hope that the deputy minister will address the question of long-term funding in his summation. Many people welcome—as I do—the direction of the Executive's policy, but we worry about its short-termism and the sustainability of the new pre-school and out-of-school places that are being created under the child care strategy. Another criticism that can be levelled at the child care strategy is that it consists of piecemeal support for a plethora of initiatives. Plans abound in local authorities, such as the national child care strategy, children's services plans and sure start Scotland, to name but a few. The Executive must ensure greater co-ordination. The emphasis, in some cases, is on the quantity of places, rather than on where the places are and how overall provision hangs together. Integration and co-ordination are lacking. A parent with one child at school and another at nursery must perform daily juggling acts, dropping off and picking up children. I visited a nursery in Leith this morning and heard of a parent who takes advantage of a part-time place at a nursery school in the morning, and who would pay for a place in the afternoon, but has difficulty finding care over lunchtime. Those problems are all too common. The ministers can pretend that they have not heard of those problems, but they exist. If this child care strategy is to be taken forward and developed in the way that it should be, we must acknowledge that it is not perfect. Things must be done to improve the service. A fully integrated service must be provided. The SNP accepts—as Sam Galbraith acknowledged— that that cannot happen overnight, but we must ensure that we continue to work towards it. When I said that I thought that the Executive was being a bit standstill, that is what I meant. The motion does not say enough about how we should take forward the strategy.", "EditedTextHTML": "Not just now; let me get into my stride.

Early education and child care should not be a political battleground. We have a shared interest in securing for every child in Scotland accessible and high-quality care and education that serves the interests and needs both of children and of parents. That presents a challenge for us all. For those of us in opposition, the challenge is to be constructive—that is the spirit with which the SNP approaches today's debate. For the Executive, the challenge is to be inclusive, to listen to and consider new ideas, not to dismiss them simply because they come from the Opposition. I urge the ministers, Sam Galbraith and Peter Peacock, to do that today.

Although we have come a long way, there is still a great deal to be done. If I have a criticism of the Executive's motion, it is that it smacks of complacency. Now is not the time to stand still or to rest on our laurels. It is time to push ahead with developing the strategy and addressing the weaknesses that exist. That is what the SNP's amendment seeks to do. It does not deny what has been achieved, as Sam Galbraith implied. It says, \"Yes, we have come a long way, but let us ensure that we keep moving forward.\" That is why I am sorry that the Executive has decided not to support the amendment. It should have been possible to move forward on the basis of consensus.

The SNP believes that further work is needed, such as on making child care even more affordable. Some of my colleagues will touch on issues relating to the working families tax credit. They will also explore in more detail issues such as the funding and management of child care, further integration and the quality of service provided. I will touch on a few of those issues and put forward positive proposals, which I hope, in the spirit of consensus, will be given due consideration by the Executive.

Sam Galbraith spent most of his time talking about funding. The motion mentions

\"the substantially increased allocation of funding to local authorities in 2000-01\".

Contrary to his opening comments, I do not deny that more money has been made available over that period. However, an important question lies behind that fact: what happens after that period? Until the end of 2000-01, grants to local authorities are ring-fenced to allow for the expansion of the provision of pre-school education but, afterwards, funding for child care will be included in grant- aided expenditure. The creation of pre-school places for three and four-year-olds is one thing; sustaining those places in the long term out of already stretched education budgets, which are subject to many other pressures, is another thing altogether.

The issue cannot be dodged, because the forthcoming education bill—as far as we know—is likely to make pre-school provision for three and four-year-olds a statutory obligation on local authorities. I have heard from a number of people in local authorities—practitioners in the field. They say that, although there have been positive noises—like those that we have heard from ministers today—about funding in the long term, no concrete commitments have been made. I hope that that will change today and that the deputy minister, who I assume will be summing up, will address that.

We should not be talking only about sustaining what we achieve over the next few years; we must also be looking to further expand free nursery provision and make it full time, rather than part time. I hope that all members agree that that should be the end objective. That will be impossible unless serious consideration is given now to securing long-term, sustainable funding.

The same funding problem exists in the provision of out-of-school places. As Sam Galbraith said, most of the money for new out-of-school places—£25 million—is coming from the new opportunities fund. Incidentally, that is the only substantial part of Scotland's education budget that is not devolved to the Scottish Parliament, giving rise to the ridiculous situation in which the Scottish Executive can set the strategy but cannot ensure the funding to implement it.

That is another debate, however. What is important to note in this debate is that money from the new opportunities fund is available only for new or expanded projects, which leaves existing services without adequate financial support. I know from my area, and other members will have similar experiences—[Interruption.] Sam Galbraith may laugh, but he should talk to people on the ground who are experiencing problems. Well-used out-of-school projects are finding it difficult to survive because they cannot access lottery funds. Is that a sensible way in which to proceed?

Of greater concern is the fact that lottery funding is available only for one year. As Sam Galbraith

said, the lottery provides start-up funding but, after the first year, on-going funding must be found from elsewhere. The question that that poses for Sam Galbraith is, \"From where?\" Either new projects must become self-financing—presumably through increased charges to parents—or, as is much more likely, the on-going burden will fall on local authorities.

I understand that lottery funding is, by its nature, short term. That begs the question: should we rely so heavily on the lottery to pay for essential child care services? I hope that the deputy minister will address the question of long-term funding in his summation. Many people welcome—as I do—the direction of the Executive's policy, but we worry about its short-termism and the sustainability of the new pre-school and out-of-school places that are being created under the child care strategy.

Another criticism that can be levelled at the child care strategy is that it consists of piecemeal support for a plethora of initiatives. Plans abound in local authorities, such as the national child care strategy, children's services plans and sure start Scotland, to name but a few. The Executive must ensure greater co-ordination. The emphasis, in some cases, is on the quantity of places, rather than on where the places are and how overall provision hangs together. Integration and co-ordination are lacking.

A parent with one child at school and another at nursery must perform daily juggling acts, dropping off and picking up children. I visited a nursery in Leith this morning and heard of a parent who takes advantage of a part-time place at a nursery school in the morning, and who would pay for a place in the afternoon, but has difficulty finding care over lunchtime. Those problems are all too common. The ministers can pretend that they have not heard of those problems, but they exist. If this child care strategy is to be taken forward and developed in the way that it should be, we must acknowledge that it is not perfect. Things must be done to improve the service.

A fully integrated service must be provided. The SNP accepts—as Sam Galbraith acknowledged— that that cannot happen overnight, but we must ensure that we continue to work towards it. When I said that I thought that the Executive was being a bit standstill, that is what I meant. The motion does not say enough about how we should take forward the strategy.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:01:10.1212253+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1773E197P503C711642", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Nov 1999", "ID": 4191 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Child Care Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27065, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27065, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hyslop, Fiona", "ID": 1773, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona Hyslop", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona Hyslop: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 32.0, "ContributionID": 711642, "EditedText": "The subject of free education is topical at the moment, given the issue of tuition fees. Does the Conservative education spokesperson believe in free education for three and four-year-olds?", "EditedTextHTML": "The subject of free education is topical at the moment, given the issue of tuition fees. Does the Conservative education spokesperson believe in free education for three and four-year-olds?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:01:40.7395022+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1773E197P503C711640", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Nov 1999", "ID": 4191 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Child Care Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27065, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27065, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hyslop, Fiona", "ID": 1773, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona Hyslop", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona Hyslop (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 28.0, "ContributionID": 711640, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:01:40.7395022+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1778E91P257C711663", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Nov 1999", "ID": 4191 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Child Care Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27065, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27065, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Eadie, Helen", "ID": 1778, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dunfermline East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Helen Eadie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Helen Eadie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 85.0, "ContributionID": 711663, "EditedText": "That goes back to what I said at the beginning of my speech; it is the difference between making a promise that can be kept and making one that one would want to keep. I wish to say a word about the Markinch scenario.", "EditedTextHTML": "That goes back to what I said at the beginning of my speech; it is the difference between making a promise that can be kept and making one that one would want to keep.

I wish to say a word about the Markinch scenario.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:00:06.5300862+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711693", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Nov 1999", "ID": 4191 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Proof-of-age Cards (Ayrshire)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27067, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 147.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 147.0, "ID": 27067, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 151.0, "ContributionID": 711693, "EditedText": "That the Parliament commends the actions of South Ayrshire Council in setting up the Proof of Age Card Scheme, which addresses in a positive manner the problem of underage procurement of alcohol, cigarettes and other harmful substances.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament commends the actions of South Ayrshire Council in setting up the Proof of Age Card Scheme, which addresses in a positive manner the problem of underage procurement of alcohol, cigarettes and other harmful substances.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1775E171P452C711679", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Nov 1999", "ID": 4191 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Child Care Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27065, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27065, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeod, Fiona", "ID": 1775, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona McLeod", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona McLeod rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 125.0, "ContributionID": 711679, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.513892+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711691", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Nov 1999", "ID": 4191 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Proof-of-age Cards (Ayrshire)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27067, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 147.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 147.0, "ID": 27067, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 148.0, "ContributionID": 711691, "EditedText": "We move on to members' business and a debate on motion S1M-219, in the name of Phil Gallie. I make my usual appeal for members to leave quietly and quickly if they are not staying to hear the debate.", "EditedTextHTML": "We move on to members' business and a debate on motion S1M-219, in the name of Phil Gallie. I make my usual appeal for members to leave quietly and quickly if they are not staying to hear the debate.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.513892+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711692", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Nov 1999", "ID": 4191 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Proof-of-age Cards (Ayrshire)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27067, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 147.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 147.0, "ID": 27067, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 150.0, "ContributionID": 711692, "EditedText": "Motion debated,", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion debated,

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.513892+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C711633", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Nov 1999", "ID": 4191 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Child Care Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27065, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27065, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Children and Education (Mr Sam Galbraith): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 12.0, "ContributionID": 711633, "EditedText": "Thank you, Presiding Officer.I hope that we will not find too much difference among the parties in this debate; that is reflected in the amendment lodged by the Scottish National party. I would have liked to accept the amendment—I would have done so for the second part—but the part that refers to securing long-term funding does not recognise the considerable work that has been done to put in the extra resources and secure them for the long term. I will, therefore, have to ask members to reject it. As a minister at the Scottish Office, I was pleased to be able to introduce—for the first time ever in this country—a national child care strategy. I am also pleased that the partnership Government has been able to take that forward. I can report today on considerable progress and on our ambitious plans for the future. Our overall aim and vision is affordable, accessible, high-quality child care for those who wish it. Child care is about giving children a good start in life—helping them to develop in a safe and caring environment. It is also about family life and the pressures on family life in today's somewhat complex and difficult world. It is about helping families who are at risk of social exclusion and young parents who feel isolated. Finally, it is about helping parents—where they wish to do so—back to work. When we talk about child care, we talk about issues that are very close to—and indeed part of— the fabric of our whole society. That is why we take the child care strategy seriously. If we provide the right services for children and parents, we stand to make considerable gains: in health and educational attainment; in young people's attachment to their communities and their sense of social responsibility; and in their adult contribution to the economy. For example, there is considerable evidence that good experiences in child care and pre-school education at an early age are associated with lower rates of criminality in later life. The gains are very large—if we get it right. Our child care strategy is committed to supporting children's all-round development from age 0 to age 14. It is about helping parents to balance family and work—by providing them with that child care—and ensuring a range of services for children and their families, especially those who need extra support. It is also about breaking the cycle of social exclusion that blights so many of our children's young lives, and working in partnership with other sectors to deliver our goals. There are no quick fixes and no simple solutions. As many of us know, family life is not simple; parents have different—and many— needs. The more support that children and families need, the more complex the links between the services. We therefore need to have co-ordinated services to meet those needs. We also need better links between health services and care for very young children; between pre-school education and child care; and between school and after-school care. On top of that, we need to provide the right planning and funding framework to encourage joined-up thinking and joined-up service delivery. All that, of course, takes money and we are more than providing that. We have put in place considerable extra resources. I was surprised to read Nicola Sturgeon in The Herald this morning— perhaps she did not say this, but it is in the paper. On funding, she said that the Government has \"a long way to go\"and that we are \"complacent\" and at a \"standstill\". She also said that \"the funding allocation for providing places for all three and four-year-olds was on a three-year basis\". It is on a three-year grant basis, but it will be added to the grant-aided expenditure after that, if it is permanent. She mentioned the new opportunities fund, which—as she appreciates—is only for start-up. Sustainability lies within the rest of the money that is provided. Let me tell everyone the extent of the funding that we are now providing. The comprehensive spending review allocated an additional £49 million of Scottish Executive funds to driving forward the strategy over the period 1999-2002. A further £42 million has been allocated for families with very young children—the 0 to three-year-olds. We call that initiative sure start Scotland. A further £25 million of lottery resources will also be distributed over the next three years by the new opportunities fund. That represents 11.5 per cent of the total that is ring-fenced for Scotland, with distribution being based on levels of deprivation rather than simply on population density. Let us not forget the important resources that are made available for child care from the new child care tax credit within the working families tax credit. Precise figures for that will depend on takeup, but we estimate that, every single year, it will provide an additional £20 million. That is an important step in our strategy. Our financial package, combining Executive money, new opportunities funding and the working families tax credit, shows how the Scottish Executive is working productively with UK Government departments to align resources for child care in Scotland. Under our programme for 0 to three-year-olds— sure start Scotland—our vision is that all children should have the best start in life. At the moment, the early life experiences of many children place them at an immediate disadvantage and can make it difficult for some three and four-year-olds to benefit from nursery experience. Even by that time, it can be too late. That is why we have implemented a programme specifically for our 0 to three-year-olds. Sure start Scotland will improve support for families with very young children, by providing integrated facilities to which everyone can have easy access. Child care is just one element of that support. Not only do we want to provide stimulating play opportunities for children, but we want parents to be able to share in those play and developmental opportunities and to develop their own skills and confidence. As I visit the projects that will benefit from sure start Scotland, a message that I hear clearly from mums and dads is that they also want to develop their skills and talents; that is an important function that child care facilities can provide. Parents and children should be able to get good medical advice and assistance on such issues as diet and child development. All the professionals in the system should be linked to that provision. Sure start Scotland aims to target resources at the more disadvantaged communities, and to provide services that parents consider to be of help. It is an important part of our social inclusion strategy and the Scottish Executive has therefore allocated an additional £14 million to that budget for next year. That represents an increase of more than 50 per cent for that programme. I turn to the rest of our child care strategy, for which we were able to make £5.75 million available this year. Next year, we will be able to increase our allocation to local authorities to £13.75 million—an increase of almost 140 per cent. That does not look very much like a standstill to me. In building the funding package for child care, we recognise that different areas face different challenges and have differing costs. We have therefore skewed the distribution. For the first time, we have adjusted our funding formula for pre-school education and child care to weight it in favour of rural areas. We are also providing a rural development fund that will be run by Children in Scotland to spread good practice in the delivery of child care throughout rural areas. We intend to commission further research on that. Additional grants will also be made available to help Gaelic- medium playgroups reach the standard at which they can access mainstream education funding. Most important of all, we will skew our funding towards disadvantaged areas, because we realise that those areas have an acute need for services and problems with project viability. I have therefore given the greatest weighting in our child care funding to deprivation. Figures for each local authority area are now available at the back of the chamber, but I will give some examples. Under the child care strategy, funding for Glasgow will increase from just under £1 million to just under £3 million, Edinburgh from under £500,000 to £1 million, Highland from just over £200,000 to just over £600,000 and Scottish Borders from just over £100,000 to nearly £270,000. That represents a significant increase in child care funding and puts in place a sustainable, long-term package that can be delivered year after year. Child care is not something that central Government can deliver. Yes, we can give a broad strategic steer, but provision needs to respond to local needs and local circumstances. That is why we asked local authorities to convene local child care partnerships, which have representation from private and voluntary sector providers of child care, employers, local enterprise companies, further education colleges, the health service and parents. In every local authority area, a child care partnership is now up and running. They have taken account of views that have been gathered through audits of supply and demand for child care and mean that the funds we put in place are properly targeted at local needs. The child care plans that have been drawn up by the partnerships cover both child care and education, to ensure that we forge the right links. In future, we will want to consider whether we can integrate planning for children's services even further; we also intend to review the planning structures. The partnerships examine and integrate services, so I was again interested by Nicola Sturgeon's statement in The Herald this morning. The article said that Nicola \"will call for piloting for children's centres across the country to provide pre-school nursery and out-of-school care under one roof\". In fact, 93 such centres are already in place across Scotland—I do not know how much more piloting we need. We are trying to adopt a partnership approach to our responsibilities. We need to practise what we preach at the centre if those outside are also to work in partnership. I therefore announce today that we will merge the Scottish Childcare Board and the early years education forum, which, at present, give us separate advice on child care and pre-school education. We will therefore have an integrated source of advice on both subjects to ensure that we make the correct links between them. The new committee will be chaired by a minister, as befits the service's importance. Our most important partnership is with parents. We need to help parents to help themselves and their children. For them, information services on child care are crucial. Parents need to know what types of child care are available, what they cost, where there are vacancies, how they are regulated and a host of other issues. That is why, as part of our investment in child care, we have put significant investment into information systems. We have invested heavily in order to give local authorities the computer hardware and software that they need in order to set up effective child care information services. Every local authority in the country, therefore, is well on the way to having a comprehensive local child care information service. Those local services will link into a national information line and website, which will be ready by December and launched formally in January. They will give not only information on local provision, but more general advice on the different kinds of care parents might consider, from childminders to nurseries to after-school clubs. One telephone number and one website will give access to material and basic information, both nationally and locally. That is one of the most far- reaching of all the measures taken under the child care strategy. Better information will help parents make better choices for their children and is likely to increase parental interest in quality, an important part of which relates to regulatory standards, staff training and qualifications. I issued a consultation paper on the regulation of day care and pre-school education earlier this year. We have had many helpful responses and I thank everyone who responded. The issues are complex and I intend to come back to the Parliament with our conclusions. We have already made it clear that we intend that the new Scottish commission for the regulation of care should assume responsibility for regulating child care. However, quality goes further than systems—important as they are. What matters for children is the knowledge and skills of the individuals who look after them. That is partly about ensuring that those who are involved in child care have the right temperament and aptitude for the profession. Training and qualifications are also vital. That is an area where we still have a lot to do. My first priority is to clarify the qualification structure. I will be launching an information booklet on that at the turn of the year. The booklet will be aimed at prospective students, adult returners, those already embarked on a child care career and employers. We will follow that with an action plan, setting out a suite of projects to improve access and career progression. As a first step towards improving career progression, the National Training Organisation for Early Years, working with the Scottish Qualifications Authority, is developing a new Scottish vocational qualification level 4 award in early education and child care. The creation of that advanced qualification will help to show that child care is a profession in which entrants can progress over time to positions of higher status and responsibility. I hope that I have given the Parliament a sense of what is being done to implement our child care strategy. Much has already been achieved and I pay tribute to the hard work and creative thinking of many local authorities and their partners. However, I stress that this will be a long haul and it will take time to achieve our full vision. It will need partnership and co-operation between all those with an interest in child care. I had certain expectations when I started down this road, two and a half years ago, but we have made progress beyond those expectations. We can now deliver affordable and accessible high- quality child care for many children. That is good for our children and, as a result, is good for Scotland. I commend the motion to the Parliament. I move,That the Parliament supports the Scottish Executive's commitment to its Childcare Strategy for Scotland and welcomes the substantially increased allocation of funding to local authorities in 2000-01 to develop the Childcare Strategy in their areas.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you, Presiding Officer.

I hope that we will not find too much difference among the parties in this debate; that is reflected in the amendment lodged by the Scottish National party. I would have liked to accept the amendment—I would have done so for the second part—but the part that refers to securing long-term funding does not recognise the considerable work that has been done to put in the extra resources and secure them for the long term. I will, therefore, have to ask members to reject it.

As a minister at the Scottish Office, I was pleased to be able to introduce—for the first time ever in this country—a national child care strategy. I am also pleased that the partnership Government has been able to take that forward. I can report today on considerable progress and on our ambitious plans for the future. Our overall aim and vision is affordable, accessible, high-quality child care for those who wish it.

Child care is about giving children a good start in life—helping them to develop in a safe and caring environment. It is also about family life and the pressures on family life in today's somewhat complex and difficult world. It is about helping families who are at risk of social exclusion and young parents who feel isolated. Finally, it is about helping parents—where they wish to do so—back to work.

When we talk about child care, we talk about issues that are very close to—and indeed part of— the fabric of our whole society. That is why we take the child care strategy seriously. If we provide the right services for children and parents, we stand to make considerable gains: in health and educational attainment; in young people's attachment to their communities and their sense of social responsibility; and in their adult contribution to the economy.

For example, there is considerable evidence that good experiences in child care and pre-school education at an early age are associated with lower rates of criminality in later life. The gains are very large—if we get it right.

Our child care strategy is committed to supporting children's all-round development from age 0 to age 14. It is about helping parents to balance family and work—by providing them with that child care—and ensuring a range of services for children and their families, especially those who need extra support. It is also about breaking the cycle of social exclusion that blights so many of our children's young lives, and working in partnership with other sectors to deliver our goals.

There are no quick fixes and no simple solutions. As many of us know, family life is not simple; parents have different—and many— needs. The more support that children and families need, the more complex the links between the services. We therefore need to have co-ordinated services to meet those needs. We also need better links between health services and care for very young children; between pre-school education and child care; and between school and after-school care. On top of that, we need to provide the right planning and funding framework to encourage joined-up thinking and joined-up service delivery.

All that, of course, takes money and we are more than providing that. We have put in place considerable extra resources. I was surprised to read Nicola Sturgeon in The Herald this morning— perhaps she did not say this, but it is in the paper. On funding, she said that the Government has

\"a long way to go\"

and that we are \"complacent\" and at a \"standstill\". She also said that

\"the funding allocation for providing places for all three and four-year-olds was on a three-year basis\".

It is on a three-year grant basis, but it will be added to the grant-aided expenditure after that, if it is permanent. She mentioned the new opportunities fund, which—as she appreciates—is only for start-up. Sustainability lies within the rest of the money that is provided.

Let me tell everyone the extent of the funding that we are now providing. The comprehensive spending review allocated an additional £49 million of Scottish Executive funds to driving forward the strategy over the period 1999-2002. A further £42 million has been allocated for families with very young children—the 0 to three-year-olds. We call that initiative sure start Scotland.

A further £25 million of lottery resources will also be distributed over the next three years by the new opportunities fund. That represents 11.5 per cent of the total that is ring-fenced for Scotland, with distribution being based on levels of deprivation rather than simply on population density.

Let us not forget the important resources that are made available for child care from the new child care tax credit within the working families tax credit. Precise figures for that will depend on take

up, but we estimate that, every single year, it will provide an additional £20 million. That is an important step in our strategy.

Our financial package, combining Executive money, new opportunities funding and the working families tax credit, shows how the Scottish Executive is working productively with UK Government departments to align resources for child care in Scotland.

Under our programme for 0 to three-year-olds— sure start Scotland—our vision is that all children should have the best start in life. At the moment, the early life experiences of many children place them at an immediate disadvantage and can make it difficult for some three and four-year-olds to benefit from nursery experience. Even by that time, it can be too late. That is why we have implemented a programme specifically for our 0 to three-year-olds.

Sure start Scotland will improve support for families with very young children, by providing integrated facilities to which everyone can have easy access. Child care is just one element of that support. Not only do we want to provide stimulating play opportunities for children, but we want parents to be able to share in those play and developmental opportunities and to develop their own skills and confidence.

As I visit the projects that will benefit from sure start Scotland, a message that I hear clearly from mums and dads is that they also want to develop their skills and talents; that is an important function that child care facilities can provide. Parents and children should be able to get good medical advice and assistance on such issues as diet and child development. All the professionals in the system should be linked to that provision.

Sure start Scotland aims to target resources at the more disadvantaged communities, and to provide services that parents consider to be of help. It is an important part of our social inclusion strategy and the Scottish Executive has therefore allocated an additional £14 million to that budget for next year. That represents an increase of more than 50 per cent for that programme.

I turn to the rest of our child care strategy, for which we were able to make £5.75 million available this year. Next year, we will be able to increase our allocation to local authorities to £13.75 million—an increase of almost 140 per cent. That does not look very much like a standstill to me.

In building the funding package for child care, we recognise that different areas face different challenges and have differing costs. We have therefore skewed the distribution. For the first time, we have adjusted our funding formula for pre-school education and child care to weight it in favour of rural areas. We are also providing a rural development fund that will be run by Children in Scotland to spread good practice in the delivery of child care throughout rural areas. We intend to commission further research on that. Additional grants will also be made available to help Gaelic- medium playgroups reach the standard at which they can access mainstream education funding.

Most important of all, we will skew our funding towards disadvantaged areas, because we realise that those areas have an acute need for services and problems with project viability. I have therefore given the greatest weighting in our child care funding to deprivation.

Figures for each local authority area are now available at the back of the chamber, but I will give some examples. Under the child care strategy, funding for Glasgow will increase from just under £1 million to just under £3 million, Edinburgh from under £500,000 to £1 million, Highland from just over £200,000 to just over £600,000 and Scottish Borders from just over £100,000 to nearly £270,000. That represents a significant increase in child care funding and puts in place a sustainable, long-term package that can be delivered year after year.

Child care is not something that central Government can deliver. Yes, we can give a broad strategic steer, but provision needs to respond to local needs and local circumstances. That is why we asked local authorities to convene local child care partnerships, which have representation from private and voluntary sector providers of child care, employers, local enterprise companies, further education colleges, the health service and parents. In every local authority area, a child care partnership is now up and running. They have taken account of views that have been gathered through audits of supply and demand for child care and mean that the funds we put in place are properly targeted at local needs.

The child care plans that have been drawn up by the partnerships cover both child care and education, to ensure that we forge the right links. In future, we will want to consider whether we can integrate planning for children's services even further; we also intend to review the planning structures.

The partnerships examine and integrate services, so I was again interested by Nicola Sturgeon's statement in The Herald this morning. The article said that Nicola

\"will call for piloting for children's centres across the country to provide pre-school nursery and out-of-school care under one roof\".

In fact, 93 such centres are already in place across Scotland—I do not know how much more piloting we need.

We are trying to adopt a partnership approach to our responsibilities. We need to practise what we preach at the centre if those outside are also to work in partnership. I therefore announce today that we will merge the Scottish Childcare Board and the early years education forum, which, at present, give us separate advice on child care and pre-school education. We will therefore have an integrated source of advice on both subjects to ensure that we make the correct links between them. The new committee will be chaired by a minister, as befits the service's importance.

Our most important partnership is with parents. We need to help parents to help themselves and their children. For them, information services on child care are crucial. Parents need to know what types of child care are available, what they cost, where there are vacancies, how they are regulated and a host of other issues. That is why, as part of our investment in child care, we have put significant investment into information systems. We have invested heavily in order to give local authorities the computer hardware and software that they need in order to set up effective child care information services. Every local authority in the country, therefore, is well on the way to having a comprehensive local child care information service.

Those local services will link into a national information line and website, which will be ready by December and launched formally in January. They will give not only information on local provision, but more general advice on the different kinds of care parents might consider, from childminders to nurseries to after-school clubs. One telephone number and one website will give access to material and basic information, both nationally and locally. That is one of the most far- reaching of all the measures taken under the child care strategy. Better information will help parents make better choices for their children and is likely to increase parental interest in quality, an important part of which relates to regulatory standards, staff training and qualifications.

I issued a consultation paper on the regulation of day care and pre-school education earlier this year. We have had many helpful responses and I thank everyone who responded. The issues are complex and I intend to come back to the Parliament with our conclusions.

We have already made it clear that we intend that the new Scottish commission for the regulation of care should assume responsibility for regulating child care. However, quality goes further than systems—important as they are. What matters for children is the knowledge and skills of the individuals who look after them. That is partly about ensuring that those who are involved in child care have the right temperament and aptitude for the profession. Training and qualifications are also vital. That is an area where we still have a lot to do.

My first priority is to clarify the qualification structure. I will be launching an information booklet on that at the turn of the year. The booklet will be aimed at prospective students, adult returners, those already embarked on a child care career and employers. We will follow that with an action plan, setting out a suite of projects to improve access and career progression.

As a first step towards improving career progression, the National Training Organisation for Early Years, working with the Scottish Qualifications Authority, is developing a new Scottish vocational qualification level 4 award in early education and child care. The creation of that advanced qualification will help to show that child care is a profession in which entrants can progress over time to positions of higher status and responsibility.

I hope that I have given the Parliament a sense of what is being done to implement our child care strategy. Much has already been achieved and I pay tribute to the hard work and creative thinking of many local authorities and their partners. However, I stress that this will be a long haul and it will take time to achieve our full vision. It will need partnership and co-operation between all those with an interest in child care.

I had certain expectations when I started down this road, two and a half years ago, but we have made progress beyond those expectations. We can now deliver affordable and accessible high- quality child care for many children. That is good for our children and, as a result, is good for Scotland. I commend the motion to the Parliament.

I move,

That the Parliament supports the Scottish Executive's commitment to its Childcare Strategy for Scotland and welcomes the substantially increased allocation of funding to local authorities in 2000-01 to develop the Childcare Strategy in their areas.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5295195+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C711641", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Nov 1999", "ID": 4191 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Child Care Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27065, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27065, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Monteith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 30.0, "ContributionID": 711641, "EditedText": "I thought that no one was going to ask. I have been waiting for an intervention—I even wrote \"intervention\" on my notes—so I am glad that Fiona Hyslop has obliged me.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thought that no one was going to ask. I have been waiting for an intervention—I even wrote \"intervention\" on my notes—so I am glad that Fiona Hyslop has obliged me.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5295195+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1778E91P257C711665", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Nov 1999", "ID": 4191 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Child Care Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27065, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27065, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Eadie, Helen", "ID": 1778, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dunfermline East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Helen Eadie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Helen Eadie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 89.0, "ContributionID": 711665, "EditedText": "We have developed a number of community, or co-operative, enterprises across Fife, some of which have been partnership initiatives between the council and local groups. In Markinch, we have developed a co-operative nursery, which is now totally sustainable after receiving pump-priming money to help it get off the ground. That is only one initiative, but I could tell members about dozens more in Fife. I am delighted with the efforts of Peter Peacock and Sam Galbraith. They are on the right wavelength. I know that the child care strategy will be welcomed by all parents, both inside and outside the chamber.", "EditedTextHTML": "We have developed a number of community, or co-operative, enterprises across Fife, some of which have been partnership initiatives between the council and local groups. In Markinch, we have developed a co-operative nursery, which is now totally sustainable after receiving pump-priming money to help it get off the ground. That is only one initiative, but I could tell members about dozens more in Fife.

I am delighted with the efforts of Peter Peacock and Sam Galbraith. They are on the right wavelength. I know that the child care strategy will be welcomed by all parents, both inside and outside the chamber.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5295195+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2068E171P304C711648", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Nov 1999", "ID": 4191 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Child Care Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27065, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27065, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stone, Jamie", "ID": 2068, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie Stone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 45.0, "ContributionID": 711648, "EditedText": "It is my pleasure, and my party's pleasure, to support warmly Sam Galbraith's motion. The great thing about coming fourth in the opening speeches is that one tears up one's original speech and responds to what others have said. I remember moving back to my home town in 1986 with three small children, and being profoundly grateful that in one of the schools there were nursery places. It made a great difference to my wife and me. We were lucky at that time, because—as Mr Peacock will well recall—there were not many other nursery places in Highland. How different things are today. I remember, too—especially when I was a councillor with Ross and Cromarty District Council—trying to help single parents get back into work, and how crucial child care was. We all have the figures that were distributed at the back of the chamber; more telling, perhaps, are some figures that come directly from Highland. In 1995, there were 24 local authority centres catering for some 800 children. Today, there are 134 such centres, catering for 2,100 children. That is a remarkable achievement. There are also 86 partner centres. The figures for the under-fours show that 40 per cent of three-year-olds—930 children—are being catered for. By next year, we aim to reach 70 per cent of all the children in Highland. Those are real and concrete achievements and I do not think that anybody could gainsay them. I welcome the tone of the speeches by Nicola Sturgeon and Brian Monteith. We should not muck about: Sam Galbraith and his team should be congratulated. In a good speech, Nicola referred to\"piecemeal support for a plethora of initiatives.\"That is not fair—I think that it was a soundbite. However, she made a point about rural schools that I welcome. In the sure start Scotland programme, there is talk of taking services out to rural areas. That will prove to be an acid test of how we perform in future. I have always supported the holistic approach to provision for children that Nicola was perhaps advocating. Such an approach could include leisure and social work and might help to change the way in which things are done in rural areas. I was interested in Nicola's reference to her visit to Leith. I have many reasons to bless being an MSP for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross, and today I have found another reason to do so. However, if she decides to visit us, we will be glad to welcome her. I have to tell Brian Monteith that the whole issue of vouchers was a paperchase. Although I will give his party some credit for its policies, I was a councillor when vouchers were introduced and was bamboozled when I tried to find my way through that system. The system today is much better. My final point touches on a comment made by Sam Galbraith. There is a slight problem with recruiting people into the sector and retaining them. The Deputy Minister for Children and Education (Peter Peacock) indicated agreement.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is my pleasure, and my party's pleasure, to support warmly Sam Galbraith's motion. The great thing about coming fourth in the opening speeches is that one tears up one's original speech and responds to what others have said.

I remember moving back to my home town in 1986 with three small children, and being profoundly grateful that in one of the schools there were nursery places. It made a great difference to my wife and me. We were lucky at that time, because—as Mr Peacock will well recall—there were not many other nursery places in Highland. How different things are today.

I remember, too—especially when I was a councillor with Ross and Cromarty District Council—trying to help single parents get back into work, and how crucial child care was.

We all have the figures that were distributed at the back of the chamber; more telling, perhaps, are some figures that come directly from Highland. In 1995, there were 24 local authority centres catering for some 800 children. Today, there are 134 such centres, catering for 2,100 children. That is a remarkable achievement. There are also 86 partner centres. The figures for the under-fours show that 40 per cent of three-year-olds—930 children—are being catered for. By next year, we aim to reach 70 per cent of all the children in Highland.

Those are real and concrete achievements and I do not think that anybody could gainsay them. I welcome the tone of the speeches by Nicola Sturgeon and Brian Monteith. We should not muck about: Sam Galbraith and his team should be congratulated.

In a good speech, Nicola referred to

\"piecemeal support for a plethora of initiatives.\"

That is not fair—I think that it was a soundbite. However, she made a point about rural schools that I welcome.

In the sure start Scotland programme, there is talk of taking services out to rural areas. That will prove to be an acid test of how we perform in future. I have always supported the holistic approach to provision for children that Nicola was perhaps advocating. Such an approach could include leisure and social work and might help to change the way in which things are done in rural areas.

I was interested in Nicola's reference to her visit to Leith. I have many reasons to bless being an MSP for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross, and today I have found another reason to do so. However, if she decides to visit us, we will be glad to welcome her.

I have to tell Brian Monteith that the whole issue of vouchers was a paperchase. Although I will give his party some credit for its policies, I was a councillor when vouchers were introduced and

was bamboozled when I tried to find my way through that system. The system today is much better.

My final point touches on a comment made by Sam Galbraith. There is a slight problem with recruiting people into the sector and retaining them.

The Deputy Minister for Children and Education (Peter Peacock) indicated agreement.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5295195+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2068E171P304C711649", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Nov 1999", "ID": 4191 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Child Care Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27065, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27065, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stone, Jamie", "ID": 2068, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie Stone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Stone: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 47.0, "ContributionID": 711649, "EditedText": "I see the deputy minister nodding. There has been a worryingly high turnover of staff up to now, and we must fine-tune that issue. The minister has drawn the matter to our attention, and I wish him well. I will now conclude my remarks. I am sorry that no member saw fit to intervene. The motion has my full support and I commend it to the Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "I see the deputy minister nodding. There has been a worryingly high turnover of staff up to now, and we must fine-tune that issue. The minister has drawn the matter to our attention, and I wish him well.

I will now conclude my remarks. I am sorry that no member saw fit to intervene. The motion has my full support and I commend it to the Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5295195+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1781E188P474C711651", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Nov 1999", "ID": 4191 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Child Care Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27065, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27065, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McGugan, Irene", "ID": 1781, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Irene McGugan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Irene McGugan (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 53.0, "ContributionID": 711651, "EditedText": "Immediately before I became an MSP, I worked for Angus Council, helping to implement the child care strategy. Like most practitioners, I welcomed the fact that at last we had a national strategy to implement, even if some of us suspected that the prime motivating factor was related to adult employment, and that the enhanced child care was simply the means to encourage more women in particular into the workplace. Everyone involved in child care and education supports the moves to expand quality, accessible and affordable child care provision in Scotland, but the process of achieving that has not been simple. There are various pots of money in existence, allocated to different departments of local authorities, to agencies outwith, including health boards, and to the voluntary sector. It has been left to workers on the ground to integrate the planning and funding of new developments. Local authority staff have been under particularly great pressure to implement the Government's proposals and to spend the allocated funding. They have been reacting, rather than having the time or flexibility to plan the services that are most appropriate for meeting the needs of children and families in the communities that they serve. That has been exacerbated by the fact that the initiatives have come at a time when it is increasingly difficult for local authorities to sustain their existing core provision, because of budget cutbacks in previous years. As well as improved integration of service delivery, serious consideration should be given to the co-ordination of the now numerous plans required for children's services, which at present have different lead agencies, timetables and accountability requirements. Other initiatives, such as social inclusion partnerships, affect child care, and it should be the Executive's responsibility to integrate planning requirements to ensure that there is a complementary time scale and shared responsibility. Parental expectations have been high following the announcement of increased nursery provision. Parents are generally not concerned about the fine detail of, for example, Government funding being available only for children in the pre-school year. Some of them choose deferred entry, which is a legitimate choice, and local authorities are funding that provision from their existing budgets. Angus Council practises child-centred policies, under which interpretations of the guidelines have been inclusive and investment high. This year, the council is accommodating 171 pre-school children for whom there is no Government funding. At £1,175 per place, a great deal of money is involved. Setting targets for places for three-year-olds for each year until 2002 is a good idea, but instead of funding provision for 60 per cent of eligible children, for whom funds are available, Angus Council is this year funding 82 per cent of the places. That is good practice, although it is a considerable financial burden. Let us again look at the example of out-of-school care. Many of the clubs that were set up under the first Government initiative have been struggling to survive since that funding ended. The new opportunities fund could have offered a lifeline to those clubs, but against all the advice given during the consultation period, the Government has made the funding available for new or expanded provision for one year only. That does nothing to sustain existing clubs, particularly those in rural areas. It is increasingly unrealistic to expect the voluntary sector and working parent-led groups to take on the responsibility for establishing out-of-school care and to run the clubs with limited financial support. Consideration must be given to mainstreaming that provision, because that would obviate the need for that sector of child care to make regular and complicated bids for time-limited lottery cash. We will achieve high-quality, affordable and accessible child care only when planning is integrated and sustainability assured with a commitment from local and central Government.", "EditedTextHTML": "Immediately before I became an MSP, I worked for Angus Council, helping to implement the child care strategy. Like most practitioners, I welcomed the fact that at last we had a national strategy to implement, even if some of us suspected that the prime motivating factor was related to adult employment, and that the enhanced child care was simply the means to encourage more women in particular into the workplace.

Everyone involved in child care and education supports the moves to expand quality, accessible and affordable child care provision in Scotland, but the process of achieving that has not been simple. There are various pots of money in existence, allocated to different departments of local authorities, to agencies outwith, including health boards, and to the voluntary sector. It has been left to workers on the ground to integrate the planning and funding of new developments.

Local authority staff have been under particularly great pressure to implement the Government's proposals and to spend the allocated funding. They have been reacting, rather than having the time or flexibility to plan the services that are most appropriate for meeting the needs of children and families in the communities that they serve. That has been exacerbated by the fact that the initiatives have come at a time when it is increasingly difficult for local authorities to sustain their existing core provision, because of budget cutbacks in previous years.

As well as improved integration of service delivery, serious consideration should be given to the co-ordination of the now numerous plans required for children's services, which at present have different lead agencies, timetables and accountability requirements. Other initiatives, such as social inclusion partnerships, affect child care, and it should be the Executive's responsibility to integrate planning requirements to ensure that there is a complementary time scale and shared responsibility.

Parental expectations have been high following the announcement of increased nursery provision. Parents are generally not concerned about the fine detail of, for example, Government funding being available only for children in the pre-school year. Some of them choose deferred entry, which is a legitimate choice, and local authorities are funding that provision from their existing budgets.

Angus Council practises child-centred policies, under which interpretations of the guidelines have been inclusive and investment high. This year, the council is accommodating 171 pre-school children for whom there is no Government funding. At £1,175 per place, a great deal of money is involved.

Setting targets for places for three-year-olds for each year until 2002 is a good idea, but instead of funding provision for 60 per cent of eligible children, for whom funds are available, Angus Council is this year funding 82 per cent of the places. That is good practice, although it is a considerable financial burden.

Let us again look at the example of out-of-school care. Many of the clubs that were set up under the first Government initiative have been struggling to survive since that funding ended. The new opportunities fund could have offered a lifeline to those clubs, but against all the advice given during the consultation period, the Government has made the funding available for new or expanded provision for one year only. That does nothing to sustain existing clubs, particularly those in rural areas.

It is increasingly unrealistic to expect the voluntary sector and working parent-led groups to take on the responsibility for establishing out-of-school care and to run the clubs with limited financial support. Consideration must be given to mainstreaming that provision, because that would obviate the need for that sector of child care to make regular and complicated bids for time-limited lottery cash. We will achieve high-quality, affordable and accessible child care only when planning is integrated and sustainability assured with a commitment from local and central Government.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5295195+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2123E103P242C711652", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Nov 1999", "ID": 4191 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Child Care Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27065, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27065, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Chisholm, Malcolm", "ID": 2123, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh North and Leith" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Malcolm Chisholm", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 56.0, "ContributionID": 711652, "EditedText": "There is nothing complacent about the Executive's motion, and I am sure that the Scottish National party amendment would have been accepted had it not implied that none of the funding is sustainable or long-term. What strikes me is how far we have moved since the election of the Labour Government in 1997. I am interested in child care; in 1993, I asked a question about it of John Major, the Conservative Prime Minister, at Prime Minister's question time. I asked whether the Government would assist financially the lone parents who required child care. He did not answer the question—which was not uncommon—so I wrote to him. I looked at his reply recently, and astoundingly he said that research indicated that low-income lone parents did not spend money on child care. For him, that was the end of the matter. I do not think, however, that it needed research to indicate that. We should remember that as recently as 1993— only six years ago—no financial support for child care was available for lone parents or for any other parents. Since 1997, there has been a massive advance in the importance of child care in political debate. The present Westminster Government is the first in United Kingdom history to state openly that child care is part of economic policy—it has thereby signified an end to the men- only economic policies of the past. Child care is also a fundamental aspect of equal opportunities policy. Perhaps most important, it is a fundamental part of policy on children. That is most clearly demonstrated in the fact that the new initiatives ensure care for the under-threes; I am sure that we will hear more details about that in the near future. All child care—for the under- threes, nursery places, after-school places and wrap-around care—is in the interests of the children as well as of the parents, and much research backs that up. The fundamental points of the strategy that have been emphasised are affordability, accessibility, quality and choice. There has been discussion about affordability, and we must reiterate the importance of the child care tax credit. That is a new departure, although there were some belated starts towards it by the previous Government. It will ensure that a significant amount of money will go not only to people who formerly received family credit, but to others, as a result of the incomes scare. That is important for the sustainability of many new child care developments. Accessibility has been a problem in the past— the child care places were simply not there. No one is complacent and there are still problems, particularly on extended places for children under five. There have been important developments in wrap-around care, and we all know about the guaranteed places for four-year olds. There will also be a big expansion in after-school child care. Accessibility is being addressed. A paper on regulation has been taken on board, which is important for quality. Choice is also important—not only in regard to the choice of a child care place. An issue that is beginning to enter the debate is whether parents—women in particular—want to return to work after having a child. Last week's pre-budget report said that in future there will be provision for them for the first year. That will be done via an extension of the working families tax credit. Another principle is family-friendly employment. We need to develop a new combination of work and child care. I am not complacent, any more than the Executive is, and I have some concerns. No one is pretending that all the problems have been solved in the past two and a half years. Students cannot get the working families tax credit, and the access funds for further and higher education do not meet the full costs of child care. A constituent of mine, a lone parent in further education, has a big bill for child care that she cannot meet. I am also concerned that the wages and conditions of child care workers should be addressed. A study is being carried out by the Accounts Commission, to compare the conditions of local authority child care workers with those in the private sector. There are issues to be addressed that relate to working families tax credit and child care tax credit, although both schemes are praiseworthy. A withdrawal of housing benefit accompanies working families tax credit, although not child care tax credit. We have to keep an eye on charges, as they might rise as a result of working families tax credit. That will leave students and others who do not get working families tax credit in some difficulty. Edinburgh Sitters has found that, although it provides a valuable service, it cannot attract the working families tax credit. I have written to the minister about that, and I am sure that I will receive a satisfactory reply soon.", "EditedTextHTML": "There is nothing complacent about the Executive's motion, and I am sure that the Scottish National party amendment would have been accepted had it not implied that none of the funding is sustainable or long-term.

What strikes me is how far we have moved since the election of the Labour Government in 1997. I am interested in child care; in 1993, I asked a question about it of John Major, the Conservative Prime Minister, at Prime Minister's question time. I asked whether the Government would assist financially the lone parents who required child care. He did not answer the question—which was not uncommon—so I wrote to him. I looked at his reply recently, and astoundingly he said that research indicated that low-income lone parents did not spend money on child care. For him, that was the end of the matter. I do not think, however, that it needed research to indicate that.

We should remember that as recently as 1993— only six years ago—no financial support for child care was available for lone parents or for any other parents. Since 1997, there has been a massive advance in the importance of child care in political debate. The present Westminster Government is the first in United Kingdom history to state openly that child care is part of economic policy—it has thereby signified an end to the men- only economic policies of the past.

Child care is also a fundamental aspect of equal opportunities policy. Perhaps most important, it is a fundamental part of policy on children. That is most clearly demonstrated in the fact that the new initiatives ensure care for the under-threes; I am sure that we will hear more details about that in the near future. All child care—for the under- threes, nursery places, after-school places and wrap-around care—is in the interests of the children as well as of the parents, and much research backs that up.

The fundamental points of the strategy that have been emphasised are affordability, accessibility, quality and choice. There has been discussion

about affordability, and we must reiterate the importance of the child care tax credit. That is a new departure, although there were some belated starts towards it by the previous Government. It will ensure that a significant amount of money will go not only to people who formerly received family credit, but to others, as a result of the incomes scare. That is important for the sustainability of many new child care developments.

Accessibility has been a problem in the past— the child care places were simply not there. No one is complacent and there are still problems, particularly on extended places for children under five. There have been important developments in wrap-around care, and we all know about the guaranteed places for four-year olds. There will also be a big expansion in after-school child care. Accessibility is being addressed.

A paper on regulation has been taken on board, which is important for quality. Choice is also important—not only in regard to the choice of a child care place. An issue that is beginning to enter the debate is whether parents—women in particular—want to return to work after having a child. Last week's pre-budget report said that in future there will be provision for them for the first year. That will be done via an extension of the working families tax credit. Another principle is family-friendly employment. We need to develop a new combination of work and child care.

I am not complacent, any more than the Executive is, and I have some concerns. No one is pretending that all the problems have been solved in the past two and a half years. Students cannot get the working families tax credit, and the access funds for further and higher education do not meet the full costs of child care. A constituent of mine, a lone parent in further education, has a big bill for child care that she cannot meet.

I am also concerned that the wages and conditions of child care workers should be addressed. A study is being carried out by the Accounts Commission, to compare the conditions of local authority child care workers with those in the private sector.

There are issues to be addressed that relate to working families tax credit and child care tax credit, although both schemes are praiseworthy. A withdrawal of housing benefit accompanies working families tax credit, although not child care tax credit. We have to keep an eye on charges, as they might rise as a result of working families tax credit. That will leave students and others who do not get working families tax credit in some difficulty.

Edinburgh Sitters has found that, although it provides a valuable service, it cannot attract the working families tax credit. I have written to the minister about that, and I am sure that I will receive a satisfactory reply soon.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5295195+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1769E16P282C711654", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Nov 1999", "ID": 4191 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Child Care Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27065, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27065, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Smith, Elaine", "ID": 1769, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Coatbridge and Chryston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Smith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Elaine Smith (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 62.0, "ContributionID": 711654, "EditedText": "I am grateful to have the opportunity to speak in the debate. Like others, I commend the Executive for pursuing the strategy of good- quality, affordable and accessible child care. I have a particular interest in the issue, not only as a member of the Parliament, but as a mother and a long-time advocate of the need for universal child care provision. I warmly welcome the substantial increase in funding that has been allocated to councils to help to develop local child care strategies. That funding will ensure that the provision of play groups, out- of-school places and trained child mentors in every neighbourhood will become a reality for parents. Together with initiatives that have been undertaken by Westminster, the Scottish Executive has implemented measures to reassure parents that they will be able to work and pay for child care, and to ease parental worry about the quality of the child care that is provided. Child care is a multi-faceted, multi-agency issue, but today I want to highlight one aspect. The introduction to the Government's green paper, \"Meeting the Childcare Challenge\", states: \"Childcare should be fun for children.\"Sam Galbraith earlier mentioned that child care should provide stimulating play opportunities. That concept has been developed successfully by a group of parents in my constituency, through the safe play agenda. Kirkshaws is an area that is afflicted by high unemployment and deprivation. It is, thankfully, also blessed with dedicated and determined parents. Struck by the apparent connections between young people involving themselves, at an early age, in drink, drugs and vandalism and the lack of local facilities for play and leisure pursuits, those parents formed Parents Action for Safe Play in Kirkshaws. In their own words, they \"battled, negotiated and built partnerships\"to transform a local site into a multi-purpose play area that caters for young people from toddlers to teenagers. Those parents continue to pursue the provision of out-of-school leisure activities for all children, and their achievements are hailed as a model for others. Safe play, as an integral part of the child care agenda, also requires a multi-departmental approach and, in education, an ethos that supports playtime as a learning mode for all, and which encourages play activities outwith school time and school structures. In acknowledging the health benefits of children at play, we can attempt to combat issues such as the growing incidence of symptoms of heart disease in our teenagers. In housing, we should provide regulations to complement existing guidelines on the provision of play areas, in planning consents for new developments. Added to that, I would call on private developers to accept the responsibility, as parents and members of our communities, of making such provision regardless of profit margins. In training and enterprise, we can do much to promote recognised and valued qualifications and employment opportunities, as well as new qualifications. That would benefit not only our children at play, but our adults at work. The importance of play for our children, in expanding their social skills, fine-tuning their creativity, providing intellectual stimulation and improving their emotional and physical well-being, is a crucial ingredient in their human growth and development. After all, the happy and confident children of today will be Scotland's well-balanced, self-assured adults of tomorrow. It is our duty to our children to create an environment that will allow them to play at their leisure. We also have a duty to provide easy and affordable access to play areas, to make our roads safer in built-up areas, and—most important—to create the conditions in which children and their parents are free from the social, economic and educational pressures that restrict their ability to play. Our children need and deserve the opportunity, the time and the space to play. I commend the Government on its commitment to the implementation of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. I call on the Executive to commit itself to recognising and promoting the right of the child to engage in safe play and recreational activities, as an important aspect of the child care agenda. I look forward to the additional initiatives that will be pursued in partnership with local authorities, and I welcome the commitment of the Executive to our children's future and the future of Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful to have the opportunity to speak in the debate. Like others, I commend the Executive for pursuing the strategy of good- quality, affordable and accessible child care. I have a particular interest in the issue, not only as a member of the Parliament, but as a mother and a long-time advocate of the need for universal child care provision.

I warmly welcome the substantial increase in funding that has been allocated to councils to help to develop local child care strategies. That funding will ensure that the provision of play groups, out- of-school places and trained child mentors in every neighbourhood will become a reality for parents. Together with initiatives that have been undertaken by Westminster, the Scottish Executive has implemented measures to reassure parents that they will be able to work and pay for child care, and to ease parental worry about the quality of the child care that is provided.

Child care is a multi-faceted, multi-agency issue, but today I want to highlight one aspect. The introduction to the Government's green paper, \"Meeting the Childcare Challenge\", states:

\"Childcare should be fun for children.\"

Sam Galbraith earlier mentioned that child care should provide stimulating play opportunities. That concept has been developed successfully by a group of parents in my constituency, through the safe play agenda.

Kirkshaws is an area that is afflicted by high unemployment and deprivation. It is, thankfully, also blessed with dedicated and determined parents. Struck by the apparent connections between young people involving themselves, at an early age, in drink, drugs and vandalism and the lack of local facilities for play and leisure pursuits, those parents formed Parents Action for Safe Play in Kirkshaws. In their own words, they

\"battled, negotiated and built partnerships\"

to transform a local site into a multi-purpose play area that caters for young people from toddlers to teenagers. Those parents continue to pursue the provision of out-of-school leisure activities for all children, and their achievements are hailed as a model for others.

Safe play, as an integral part of the child care agenda, also requires a multi-departmental approach and, in education, an ethos that supports playtime as a learning mode for all, and which encourages play activities outwith school time and school structures. In acknowledging the health benefits of children at play, we can attempt to combat issues such as the growing incidence of symptoms of heart disease in our teenagers. In housing, we should provide regulations to complement existing guidelines on the provision of play areas, in planning consents for new developments. Added to that, I would call on private developers to accept the responsibility, as parents and members of our communities, of making such provision regardless of profit margins. In training and enterprise, we can do much to promote recognised and valued qualifications and employment opportunities, as well as new qualifications. That would benefit not only our children at play, but our adults at work.

The importance of play for our children, in expanding their social skills, fine-tuning their creativity, providing intellectual stimulation and improving their emotional and physical well-being, is a crucial ingredient in their human growth and development. After all, the happy and confident children of today will be Scotland's well-balanced, self-assured adults of tomorrow. It is our duty to our children to create an environment that will allow them to play at their leisure. We also have a duty to provide easy and affordable access to play areas, to make our roads safer in built-up areas, and—most important—to create the conditions in which children and their parents are free from the social, economic and educational pressures that restrict their ability to play.

Our children need and deserve the opportunity, the time and the space to play. I commend the Government on its commitment to the implementation of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. I call on the Executive to commit itself to recognising and promoting the right of the child to engage in safe play and recreational activities, as an important aspect of the child care agenda.

I look forward to the additional initiatives that will be pursued in partnership with local authorities, and I welcome the commitment of the Executive to our children's future and the future of Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5295195+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2207E94P262C711656", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Nov 1999", "ID": 4191 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Child Care Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27065, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27065, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Barrie, Scott", "ID": 2207, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dunfermline West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Scott Barrie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Scott Barrie (Dunfermline West) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 68.0, "ContributionID": 711656, "EditedText": "I welcome the opportunity to debate the child care strategy for Scotland. For too long children have been seen as little more than passive recipients of services, whether in child welfare or education. My childhood, and that of most members in the chamber, was characterised by corporate things being done to me, rather than things being done with me. Times are changing, albeit slowly. In the 20 or so years since I left school, our education establishments have become more welcoming places for students, and particularly for parents. Gone are the days when parents were welcomed in school only for the obligatory parents day or evening, or when they were summoned because of a child's difficulty. It is now 10 years since we ratified the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child. Although we are a long way from reaching its lofty goals, we have made some progress in recognising children as distinct individuals, and not as appendages or the property of their parents, as they were viewed in the past. I congratulate the Executive on the way in which it has placed children's services in a clear departmental remit with a Minister for Children and Education. The core of the Executive's child care strategy is improving all-round development of our children through quality day care and early education. From first-hand experience, I know how important pre-school education is. I was fortunate to be brought up in an area of Scotland that valued education. Fife County Council and its successor authorities have always invested in the area's education services. I was fortunate to get a nursery place way back in 1966. Over 30 years later, almost every four-year-old, and soon all three-year-olds, will have that same opportunity. I am conscious of the good start to education that pre-school education gave me. It allowed me, an ordinary kid from a working-class background, to be the first in my extended family to go to university. I hope that other people will have that opportunity. Other members have spoken, or will speak, on other initiatives which, taken together, provide the bedrock of the Executive's child care strategy, such as early intervention, including playgroups and sure start, the working families tax credit and the provision of affordable child care. However, I want to address an area of child care that often is relegated to the position of a cinderella service: that of looked-after children, and in particular, support to vulnerable families. If we are serious about ensuring that all our children have the same opportunities from the extra resources that are being ploughed into education, it is vital that they are all in a position to benefit from them. To that end, it is important that we ensure that support to vulnerable families is high up on the agendas of the Executive and local authorities. When developing services for children, and in particular when developing children's services plans, local authorities must ensure that comprehensive services are developed that meet the needs of children and their families. A social services inspectorate report from down south that was published in March this year identified that the key to getting family support services right was offering services that are flexible, sensitive and constitute an effective response. The report also stated:\"Family centres offered an increasingly wide range of innovative services. They made good use of scarce resources, and parents particularly valued outreach work, parenting skills training and support groups.\" From my experience of more than 15 years working in statutory child care social work, the same is true for Scotland. Families with pre-school children require all the help that they need, to ensure that children have every opportunity to maximise their potential. The Executive's child care strategy is welcome. It is making real differences for a lot of our children. However, we must make extra efforts to ensure that support for vulnerable families, children in need and, of course, looked-after children, is better co-ordinated and improved. I know of the minister's interest in, and commitment to, looked-after children. I look forward to a debate on that topic in the near future, so that we can improve the services to our most disadvantaged youngsters.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the opportunity to debate the child care strategy for Scotland. For too long children have been seen as little more than passive recipients of services, whether in child welfare or education. My childhood, and that of most members in the chamber, was characterised by corporate things being done to me, rather than things being done with me.

Times are changing, albeit slowly. In the 20 or so years since I left school, our education establishments have become more welcoming places for students, and particularly for parents. Gone are the days when parents were welcomed in school only for the obligatory parents day or evening, or when they were summoned because of a child's difficulty.

It is now 10 years since we ratified the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child. Although we are a long way from reaching its lofty goals, we have made some progress in recognising children as distinct individuals, and not as appendages or the property of their parents, as they were viewed in the past.

I congratulate the Executive on the way in which it has placed children's services in a clear departmental remit with a Minister for Children and Education. The core of the Executive's child care strategy is improving all-round development of our children through quality day care and early education.

From first-hand experience, I know how important pre-school education is. I was fortunate to be brought up in an area of Scotland that valued education. Fife County Council and its successor authorities have always invested in the area's education services. I was fortunate to get a nursery place way back in 1966. Over 30 years later, almost every four-year-old, and soon all three-year-olds, will have that same opportunity. I am conscious of the good start to education that pre-school education gave me. It allowed me, an ordinary kid from a working-class background, to be the first in my extended family to go to university. I hope that other people will have that opportunity.

Other members have spoken, or will speak, on other initiatives which, taken together, provide the bedrock of the Executive's child care strategy, such as early intervention, including playgroups and sure start, the working families tax credit and the provision of affordable child care. However, I want to address an area of child care that often is relegated to the position of a cinderella service: that of looked-after children, and in particular, support to vulnerable families.

If we are serious about ensuring that all our children have the same opportunities from the extra resources that are being ploughed into education, it is vital that they are all in a position to

benefit from them. To that end, it is important that we ensure that support to vulnerable families is high up on the agendas of the Executive and local authorities.

When developing services for children, and in particular when developing children's services plans, local authorities must ensure that comprehensive services are developed that meet the needs of children and their families. A social services inspectorate report from down south that was published in March this year identified that the key to getting family support services right was offering services that are flexible, sensitive and constitute an effective response.

The report also stated:

\"Family centres offered an increasingly wide range of innovative services. They made good use of scarce resources, and parents particularly valued outreach work, parenting skills training and support groups.\"

From my experience of more than 15 years working in statutory child care social work, the same is true for Scotland. Families with pre-school children require all the help that they need, to ensure that children have every opportunity to maximise their potential.

The Executive's child care strategy is welcome. It is making real differences for a lot of our children. However, we must make extra efforts to ensure that support for vulnerable families, children in need and, of course, looked-after children, is better co-ordinated and improved.

I know of the minister's interest in, and commitment to, looked-after children. I look forward to a debate on that topic in the near future, so that we can improve the services to our most disadvantaged youngsters.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5295195+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1778E91P257C711659", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Nov 1999", "ID": 4191 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Child Care Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27065, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27065, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Eadie, Helen", "ID": 1778, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dunfermline East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Helen Eadie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Helen Eadie (Dunfermline East) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 77.0, "ContributionID": 711659, "EditedText": "I warmly welcome the Minister for Children and Education's statement. The new allocation for child care represents something in the order of a 140 per cent increase in funding. That is not an insignificant sum of money, and I am proud that my colleagues saw fit to make that investment. The statement is in stark contrast to what Brian Monteith said about the previous Government's commitment. When he mentioned vouchers, I remembered all the comments that I received as a councillor at the time when the scheme was launched. Most people said, \"What good are the vouchers to me if I have no nursery to take my children to?\" That is one of the issues that must be addressed. We are talking about nursery education on the one hand and, as Nicola Sturgeon said, child care on the other. The difference between this Government and any previous or aspiring Governments is that our Government believes in making promises that it knows it can keep. It does not believe in making promises that it knows it may not be able to keep, although it may aspire to the same aims as other parties. Everyone in this Parliament undoubtedly believes that investment in our children—the flowers of our future—should be at the very heart of everything that we do, enabling us to do something positive for young people in this country.", "EditedTextHTML": "I warmly welcome the Minister for Children and Education's statement. The new allocation for child care represents something in the order of a 140 per cent increase in funding. That is not an insignificant sum of money, and I am proud that my colleagues saw fit to make that investment.

The statement is in stark contrast to what Brian Monteith said about the previous Government's commitment. When he mentioned vouchers, I remembered all the comments that I received as a councillor at the time when the scheme was launched. Most people said, \"What good are the vouchers to me if I have no nursery to take my children to?\" That is one of the issues that must be addressed.

We are talking about nursery education on the one hand and, as Nicola Sturgeon said, child care on the other. The difference between this Government and any previous or aspiring Governments is that our Government believes in making promises that it knows it can keep. It does not believe in making promises that it knows it may not be able to keep, although it may aspire to the same aims as other parties.

Everyone in this Parliament undoubtedly believes that investment in our children—the flowers of our future—should be at the very heart of everything that we do, enabling us to do something positive for young people in this country.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5295195+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1778E91P257C711661", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Nov 1999", "ID": 4191 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Child Care Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27065, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27065, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Eadie, Helen", "ID": 1778, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dunfermline East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Helen Eadie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Helen Eadie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 81.0, "ContributionID": 711661, "EditedText": "At the general election, I was a candidate in Roxburgh and Berwickshire, where I worked for 18 months to two years. I know that there was great hostility there to the Conservative party's vouchers. Then I returned to Fife, which has been one of the pioneering counties in Scotland. Fife Council has a great child care record. When everyone else was aspiring to undertake some of these initiatives, Fife Council was already putting them into practice. There was 98 per cent coverage for all four-year-olds. I am delighted that the new Labour Government put child care issues at the heart of its agenda. I see that Donald Gorrie has left the chamber, but child care is not just about education or social issues; it is also an economic issue. Although Donald said that we must think about the children, we must achieve a balance and think about the parents too. I remember that, when I had my two children, I was living in London with not a soul around me to give me support, as my family was up here in Scotland. I thought to myself, \"What do I do about child care?\" That was when my passion for child care started. At one time, I was the chair of the Child Care Now Scotland campaign. I believed passionately that the provision of child care would affect the social inclusion agenda and would begin to help families. It was a Jesuit priest who said, \"If you give me the child, I'll give you the man.\" He meant that investing in children produces people we can be proud of. However, for the last 18 years, the Tories put us in the second bottom place of the European league. That is no record to be proud of, I tell Brian Monteith. I am heartily proud of my colleagues both in this Parliament and at Westminster for the work that they have done on child care, about which Malcolm Chisholm spoke. Nicola Sturgeon talked about sustainability. I was elected to this Parliament not just as a Labour party candidate but as a Labour and Co-operative candidate. As such, I bring baggage with me: the ideals of the Co-operative movement, which believes both in providing retail services and in local people providing local solutions to local problems. That is what the Co-operative movement is about and that is what this Government is about. I see a slightly puzzled look on Nicola's face. I think she is wondering about the connection. The connection is that, in Markinch, in Fife—", "EditedTextHTML": "At the general election, I was a candidate in Roxburgh and Berwickshire, where I worked for 18 months to two years. I know that there was great hostility there to the Conservative party's vouchers. Then I returned to Fife, which has been one of the pioneering counties in Scotland. Fife Council has a great child care record. When everyone else was aspiring to undertake some of these initiatives, Fife Council was already putting them into practice. There was 98 per cent coverage for all four-year-olds.

I am delighted that the new Labour Government put child care issues at the heart of its agenda. I see that Donald Gorrie has left the chamber, but child care is not just about education or social issues; it is also an economic issue. Although Donald said that we must think about the children, we must achieve a balance and think about the parents too.

I remember that, when I had my two children, I was living in London with not a soul around me to give me support, as my family was up here in Scotland. I thought to myself, \"What do I do about child care?\" That was when my passion for child care started. At one time, I was the chair of the Child Care Now Scotland campaign. I believed passionately that the provision of child care would affect the social inclusion agenda and would begin to help families.

It was a Jesuit priest who said, \"If you give me the child, I'll give you the man.\" He meant that investing in children produces people we can be proud of. However, for the last 18 years, the Tories put us in the second bottom place of the European league. That is no record to be proud of, I tell Brian Monteith. I am heartily proud of my colleagues both in this Parliament and at Westminster for the work that they have done on child care, about which Malcolm Chisholm spoke.

Nicola Sturgeon talked about sustainability. I was elected to this Parliament not just as a Labour party candidate but as a Labour and Co-operative candidate. As such, I bring baggage with me: the ideals of the Co-operative movement, which believes both in providing retail services and in local people providing local solutions to local problems. That is what the Co-operative movement is about and that is what this Government is about.

I see a slightly puzzled look on Nicola's face. I think she is wondering about the connection. The connection is that, in Markinch, in Fife—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5295195+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2044E178P334C711671", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Nov 1999", "ID": 4191 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Child Care Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27065, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27065, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jenkins, Ian", "ID": 2044, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ian Jenkins", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ian Jenkins (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 106.0, "ContributionID": 711671, "EditedText": "I welcome Mr Galbraith's comments, which tackled the agenda for social inclusion as well as education. The two things that most affect children's prospects are poverty and a lack of education and socialisation. If we can get this strategy right, we can improve the prospects of children and of society as a whole. The working families tax credit attacks poverty. Announcements such as we have heard today attack the lack of education and child care. I will be delighted to go back to the Borders and tell the newly formed local child care partnership that it will have £250,000 to spend instead of £100,000. If the chamber will forgive me, I would like to mention a friend who died this week. While he was a councillor, Alan Hooper fought hard to get the council to take the provision of nursery education seriously. He would have been delighted to hear that such resources are to be available to the Borders. I do not want to spend too much time on this, as most of what I wanted to say has been said, and it would be silly to repeat it. I hope that Mr Galbraith and Mr Peacock will accept some points that have been made on all sides of the chamber. For example, the idea was raised of deferred entry if people do not feel that their children are ready to go to formal school. We should be able to give local authorities some flexibility in how they apply the two-year pre-school provision. Sylvia Jackson talked about arrangements for people living near council borders who would find it easier cross those borders for pre-school care provision. I hope that that will be facilitated. I am glad that rurality was mentioned as a factor in weighting funding. There are still problems in rural areas with transporting youngsters to playgroups and nurseries that are miles away from the children's cottage or village. I hope that those problems will be considered. Regulation is a strange thing. Of course we want to be certain that only qualified people do the job, but we do not want to hamstring people who have a genuine desire to help if they are less formally organised. With that in mind, I hope that regulation can be married with common sense and a bit of flexibility. I commend Donald Gorrie for his comments. We have talked about very young children most of the time today, but we must also help the over-fives, who are also vulnerable, through out-of-school clubs and after-school homework clubs. I hope that some of the funds will be spent in those areas. Finally, I agree with Helen Eadie's point. As I said at the beginning, if we get this strategy right, we will be doing everyone a service—children, ourselves, society and the generations that follow. If children today are treated properly, their children will benefit too.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome Mr Galbraith's comments, which tackled the agenda for social inclusion as well as education.

The two things that most affect children's prospects are poverty and a lack of education and socialisation. If we can get this strategy right, we can improve the prospects of children and of society as a whole. The working families tax credit attacks poverty. Announcements such as we have heard today attack the lack of education and child care.

I will be delighted to go back to the Borders and tell the newly formed local child care partnership that it will have £250,000 to spend instead of £100,000. If the chamber will forgive me, I would like to mention a friend who died this week. While he was a councillor, Alan Hooper fought hard to get the council to take the provision of nursery education seriously. He would have been delighted to hear that such resources are to be available to the Borders.

I do not want to spend too much time on this, as most of what I wanted to say has been said, and it would be silly to repeat it. I hope that Mr Galbraith and Mr Peacock will accept some points that have been made on all sides of the chamber. For example, the idea was raised of deferred entry if people do not feel that their children are ready to go to formal school. We should be able to give local authorities some flexibility in how they apply the two-year pre-school provision.

Sylvia Jackson talked about arrangements for people living near council borders who would find it easier cross those borders for pre-school care provision. I hope that that will be facilitated.

I am glad that rurality was mentioned as a factor in weighting funding. There are still problems in rural areas with transporting youngsters to playgroups and nurseries that are miles away from the children's cottage or village. I hope that those problems will be considered.

Regulation is a strange thing. Of course we want to be certain that only qualified people do the job, but we do not want to hamstring people who have a genuine desire to help if they are less formally organised. With that in mind, I hope that regulation can be married with common sense and a bit of flexibility.

I commend Donald Gorrie for his comments. We have talked about very young children most of the

time today, but we must also help the over-fives, who are also vulnerable, through out-of-school clubs and after-school homework clubs. I hope that some of the funds will be spent in those areas.

Finally, I agree with Helen Eadie's point. As I said at the beginning, if we get this strategy right, we will be doing everyone a service—children, ourselves, society and the generations that follow. If children today are treated properly, their children will benefit too.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5295195+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C711677", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Nov 1999", "ID": 4191 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Child Care Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27065, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27065, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Monteith rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 121.0, "ContributionID": 711677, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5295195+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711681", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Nov 1999", "ID": 4191 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Child Care Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27065, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27065, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 129.0, "ContributionID": 711681, "EditedText": "That concludes today's debate. There are no Parliamentary Bureau motions so we will move straight to decision time.", "EditedTextHTML": "That concludes today's debate. There are no Parliamentary Bureau motions so we will move straight to decision time.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5295195+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711682", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Nov 1999", "ID": 4191 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27066, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 131.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 131.0, "ID": 27066, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 133.0, "ContributionID": 711682, "EditedText": "The first question is, that amendment S1M-285.1, in the name of Nicola Sturgeon, which seeks to amend motion S1M-285, in the name of Mr Sam Galbraith, on the Executive's child care strategy for Scotland, be agreed to. Are we agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "The first question is, that amendment S1M-285.1, in the name of Nicola Sturgeon, which seeks to amend motion S1M-285, in the name of Mr Sam Galbraith, on the Executive's child care strategy for Scotland, be agreed to. Are we agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5295195+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711683", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Nov 1999", "ID": 4191 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27066, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 131.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 131.0, "ID": 27066, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 135.0, "ContributionID": 711683, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5295195+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711686", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Nov 1999", "ID": 4191 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27066, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 131.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 131.0, "ID": 27066, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 140.0, "ContributionID": 711686, "EditedText": "The result of the division is as follows: For 31, Against 74, Abstentions 0.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result of the division is as follows: For 31, Against 74, Abstentions 0.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5295195+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711687", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Nov 1999", "ID": 4191 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27066, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 131.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 131.0, "ID": 27066, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 142.0, "ContributionID": 711687, "EditedText": "Amendment disagreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment disagreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5295195+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C711694", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Nov 1999", "ID": 4191 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Proof-of-age Cards (Ayrshire)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27067, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 147.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 147.0, "ID": 27067, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 153.0, "ContributionID": 711694, "EditedText": "Few in this chamber and, I hope, few across the country, will recognise me as anything other than a Scottish Conservative MSP. However, I am here today to praise South Ayrshire Council, which is, strangely enough, Labour controlled—although only just, as Labour has 17 members and the Conservatives have 13. Why should I give South Ayrshire Council credit? I am frequently in dispute with it on policy issues and, on the day that it launched the proof- of-age card, it banned me from a council premise. I will, nevertheless, give credit where it is due. The proof-of-age card is a good scheme; it has been introduced in an innovative and creditable way and it addresses long-standing problems. Age limits on the purchase of drink, tobacco, glue and a range of other products are set to protect the young. It is important that the laws are upheld, for the good of young people and for the good of the community. We all know the impact that youths can have on communities when they obtain copious quantities of alcohol—they can cause great concern, especially to the elderly. It is illegal to sell alcohol to people under the age of 18 and it is illegal to buy it for youngsters. However, until 1997, the police could do nothing about youngsters having alcohol in their possession. Happily, the previous Tory Government gave the police the power to confiscate alcohol from youngsters. The proof-of-age scheme eases the situation. It is important that retailers have some kind of guide when faced with young people demanding articles from the long list of items that may not be sold to them. The proof-of-age scheme is designed to leave no doubt in retailers' minds that they are operating within the law. It offers them some protection. Irene Oldfather, who, I understand, is in mainland Europe today, has lodged a motion that suggests that a hard line should be taken against retailers who sell tobacco and other products to youngsters. If we are to take such a stance, we have to ensure that the retailers can comply. We must recognise the situation that they face when a group of young people demands a product. The retailer might be intimidated into going along with the youngsters' claims that they are old enough. However, the retailers who join the proof-of-age scheme have an element of protection: they can ask to see the card. Councils are mandated to deal harshly with retailers who flout the law. It is to the credit of South Ayrshire Council that it has created links among its consumer protection bodies, its education body, the police and the health board, which has supplied a great deal of funding for the scheme. Validate UK is funded by a company called Photo-me International and a number of major companies that recognise the merits of the scheme. The scheme is aimed at those between the ages of 16 and 18. It gives them cards through the education system, but it also takes account of those who have left school before the age of 18 and makes the cards available from retailers, police stations and council offices. That allows for a wide range of inclusion. South Ayrshire Council has to be commended for its actions. Only Western Isles Council has a similar scheme. I believe that, if Irene Oldfather's motion were to be pressed, North Ayrshire Council and other councils could pick up from South Ayrshire Council and the scheme could be implemented throughout Scotland. One of the reasons why I lodged this motion was, as well as to commend Labour-controlled South Ayrshire Council, to ask the minister to think about the validate UK scheme—the proof-of-age scheme— and consider its value to young people and to people who run small businesses. There is mutual advantage in it, as well as advantage for the communities. I ask the minister to commend South Ayrshire Council and the scheme.", "EditedTextHTML": "Few in this chamber and, I hope, few across the country, will recognise me as anything other than a Scottish Conservative MSP. However, I am here today to praise South Ayrshire Council, which is, strangely enough, Labour controlled—although only just, as Labour has 17 members and the Conservatives have 13.

Why should I give South Ayrshire Council credit? I am frequently in dispute with it on policy issues and, on the day that it launched the proof- of-age card, it banned me from a council premise. I will, nevertheless, give credit where it is due. The proof-of-age card is a good scheme; it has been introduced in an innovative and creditable way and it addresses long-standing problems.

Age limits on the purchase of drink, tobacco, glue and a range of other products are set to protect the young. It is important that the laws are upheld, for the good of young people and for the good of the community. We all know the impact that youths can have on communities when they obtain copious quantities of alcohol—they can cause great concern, especially to the elderly.

It is illegal to sell alcohol to people under the age of 18 and it is illegal to buy it for youngsters. However, until 1997, the police could do nothing about youngsters having alcohol in their possession. Happily, the previous Tory Government gave the police the power to confiscate alcohol from youngsters.

The proof-of-age scheme eases the situation. It is important that retailers have some kind of guide when faced with young people demanding articles from the long list of items that may not be sold to them. The proof-of-age scheme is designed to leave no doubt in retailers' minds that they are operating within the law. It offers them some protection.

Irene Oldfather, who, I understand, is in mainland Europe today, has lodged a motion that suggests that a hard line should be taken against retailers who sell tobacco and other products to youngsters. If we are to take such a stance, we have to ensure that the retailers can comply. We must recognise the situation that they face when a group of young people demands a product. The retailer might be intimidated into going along with the youngsters' claims that they are old enough. However, the retailers who join the proof-of-age scheme have an element of protection: they can ask to see the card.

Councils are mandated to deal harshly with retailers who flout the law. It is to the credit of South Ayrshire Council that it has created links among its consumer protection bodies, its education body, the police and the health board, which has supplied a great deal of funding for the scheme.

Validate UK is funded by a company called Photo-me International and a number of major companies that recognise the merits of the scheme. The scheme is aimed at those between the ages of 16 and 18. It gives them cards through the education system, but it also takes account of those who have left school before the age of 18 and makes the cards available from retailers, police stations and council offices. That allows for a wide range of inclusion.

South Ayrshire Council has to be commended for its actions. Only Western Isles Council has a similar scheme. I believe that, if Irene Oldfather's motion were to be pressed, North Ayrshire Council and other councils could pick up from South Ayrshire Council and the scheme could be implemented throughout Scotland. One of the reasons why I lodged this motion was, as well as to commend Labour-controlled South Ayrshire Council, to ask the minister to think about the validate UK scheme—the proof-of-age scheme— and consider its value to young people and to people who run small businesses. There is mutual advantage in it, as well as advantage for the communities. I ask the minister to commend South Ayrshire Council and the scheme.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5295195+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C711662", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Nov 1999", "ID": 4191 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Child Care Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27065, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27065, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 83.0, "ContributionID": 711662, "EditedText": "I am genuinely interested in what Helen Eadie has to say. The puzzled look on my face was not to do with the connection. Rather, I was puzzled by what she found impossible to support in the SNP's amendment. As has been said, there is nothing in the amendment that criticises what has already been done, which I went to great lengths to welcome. What is wrong with accepting the idea that although we have come a long way, there is a long way yet to go? We should dedicate ourselves to ensuring that what we do now is sustainable in the long term.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am genuinely interested in what Helen Eadie has to say. The puzzled look on my face was not to do with the connection. Rather,

I was puzzled by what she found impossible to support in the SNP's amendment. As has been said, there is nothing in the amendment that criticises what has already been done, which I went to great lengths to welcome. What is wrong with accepting the idea that although we have come a long way, there is a long way yet to go? We should dedicate ourselves to ensuring that what we do now is sustainable in the long term.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:01:10.1212253+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C711630", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Nov 1999", "ID": 4191 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Time for Reflection", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27064, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27064, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Patricia Ferguson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 4.0, "ContributionID": 711630, "EditedText": "Our time for reflection leader today is the Most Reverend Richard Holloway, Primus of the Scottish Episcopal Church.", "EditedTextHTML": "Our time for reflection leader today is the Most Reverend Richard Holloway, Primus of the Scottish Episcopal Church.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.513892+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711631", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Nov 1999", "ID": 4191 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Time for Reflection", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27064, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27064, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "The Most Reverend Richard Holloway (Primus of the Scottish Episcopal Church) ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Most Reverend Richard Holloway (Primus of the Scottish Episcopal Church): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 6.0, "ContributionID": 711631, "EditedText": "There is an ancient legend that there were four wise men, but only three of them made it to Bethlehem for the birth of Christ. The fourth wise man went aside to help a poor widow, and by the time he had finished the others had gone. He tried to catch up, but kept stopping to help people in need, so by the time he got to Bethlehem the holy family had left. He went on looking for Christ, but was constantly diverted to assist those in need, through all the famines and wars and oppressions of history. At last, worn out with serving others and searching for Christ, he was told that all along he had been encountering him and serving him in those who suffered. The idea of Christ incognito, the Christ hidden among the poor, has its basis in Matthew's gospel, chapter 25: \"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will put the sheep at his right hand and the goats at the left. Then the king will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.' Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry and gave you food, or thirsty and gave you something to drink? And when was it that we saw you a stranger and welcomed you, or naked and gave you clothing? And when was it that we saw you sick or in prison and visited you?' And the king will answer them, ‘Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family, you did it to me.\" The idea of Christ incognito has taken different forms in Christian spirituality. Sometimes Christ is served in the poor, but sometimes Christ himself is thought of as travelling through the travails of history. That is certainly how Augustine of Hippo saw it: \"Christ is still journeying whither he has gone before. For Christ went before us in the head, and Christ follows in the body. Christ is still here toiling; here Christ suffered at Saul's hands. Christ is still here in want; here Christ still journeys; Christ here is sick; Christ is here in bonds.\" However we express it, it is a vision of longing for a mended creation, a world that has been healed of its pain and injustice. Here is a modern version of the same ideal: \"Those who carry grand pianos to the tenth floor wardrobes and coffins the old man with a bundle of wood hobbling beyond the horizon the woman with a hump of nettles the lunatic pushing her baby carriage full of empty vodka bottles they all will be raised up like a seagull feather like a dry leaf like eggshell scraps of street newspapers Blessed are those who carry for they will be raised.\" Others might put it in different language, but we all share the same longing. Let us pray. Grant us, O God, a vision of our land, fair as she might be: a land of justice, where none shall prey on others; a land of plenty, where poverty shall cease to fester; a land of equality, where success shall be founded on service, and honour be given to worth alone; a land of peace, where order shall not rest on force, but on the love of all for their land, the great mother of the common life and welfare. Amen.", "EditedTextHTML": "There is an ancient legend that there were four wise men, but only three of them made it to Bethlehem for the birth of Christ. The fourth wise man went aside to help a poor widow, and by the time he had finished the others had gone. He tried to catch up, but kept stopping to help people in need, so by the time he got to Bethlehem the holy family had left. He went on looking for Christ, but was constantly diverted to assist those in need, through all the famines and wars and oppressions of history. At last, worn out with serving others and searching for Christ, he was told that all along he had been encountering him and serving him in those who suffered.

The idea of Christ incognito, the Christ hidden among the poor, has its basis in Matthew's gospel, chapter 25:

\"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will put the sheep at his right hand and the goats at the left. Then the king will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.' Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry and gave you food, or thirsty and gave you something to drink? And when was it that we saw you a stranger and welcomed you, or naked and gave you clothing? And when was it that we saw you sick or in prison and visited you?' And the king will answer them, ‘Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family, you did it to me.\"

The idea of Christ incognito has taken different forms in Christian spirituality. Sometimes Christ is served in the poor, but sometimes Christ himself is thought of as travelling through the travails of history. That is certainly how Augustine of Hippo saw it:

\"Christ is still journeying whither he has gone before. For Christ went before us in the head, and Christ follows in the body. Christ is still here toiling; here Christ suffered at Saul's hands. Christ is still here in want; here Christ still journeys; Christ here is sick; Christ is here in bonds.\"

However we express it, it is a vision of longing for a mended creation, a world that has been healed of its pain and injustice. Here is a modern version of the same ideal:

\"Those who carry grand pianos to the tenth floor wardrobes and coffins the old man with a bundle of wood hobbling beyond the horizon the woman with a hump of nettles the lunatic pushing her baby carriage full of empty vodka bottles they all will be raised up like a seagull feather like a dry leaf like eggshell scraps of street newspapers

Blessed are those who carry for they will be raised.\"

Others might put it in different language, but we all share the same longing. Let us pray.

Grant us, O God, a vision of our land, fair as she might be: a land of justice, where none shall prey on others; a land of plenty, where poverty shall cease to fester; a land of equality, where success shall be founded on service, and honour be given to worth alone; a land of peace, where order shall not rest on force, but on the love of all for their land, the great mother of the common life and welfare. Amen.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.513892+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C711632", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Nov 1999", "ID": 4191 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Child Care Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27065, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27065, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Patricia Ferguson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 9.0, "ContributionID": 711632, "EditedText": "The next item of business is a debate on motion S1M-285 in the name of Mr Sam Galbraith, on the Scottish Executive's child care strategy for Scotland, and an amendment to that motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "The next item of business is a debate on motion S1M-285 in the name of Mr Sam Galbraith, on the Scottish Executive's child care strategy for Scotland, and an amendment to that motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5295195+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2123E103P242C711637", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Nov 1999", "ID": 4191 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Child Care Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27065, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27065, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Chisholm, Malcolm", "ID": 2123, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh North and Leith" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Malcolm Chisholm", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 21.0, "ContributionID": 711637, "EditedText": "I welcome the tone of Nicola Sturgeon's speech and I thank her for visiting my constituency this morning. Does she realise that, as part of the national child care strategy, City of Edinburgh Council has guaranteed a wrap-around nursery place for all children by 2001? I am sure that that is only one example of that happening. Does she recognise that start-up funding is one thing, but that the child care tax credit should sustain after-school places?", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the tone of Nicola Sturgeon's speech and I thank her for visiting my constituency this morning. Does she realise that, as part of the national child care strategy, City of Edinburgh Council has guaranteed a wrap-around nursery place for all children by 2001? I am sure that that is only one example of that happening.

Does she recognise that start-up funding is one thing, but that the child care tax credit should sustain after-school places?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5295195+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C711639", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Nov 1999", "ID": 4191 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Child Care Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27065, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27065, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Brian Monteith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 26.0, "ContributionID": 711639, "EditedText": "I am pleased to welcome what the minister said. I see that that brings a smile to his face. I hope that he will still be smiling at the end of my short contribution. It is appropriate that we discuss this subject as we celebrate the anniversary of the signing of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child by the Conservative Government in 1991. In 1992, we followed that by signing up to the European Union recommendation on child care. I am always pleased to hear new announcements on spending from the Government, as it gives us a chance to work out whether the money is new, reheated or recycled. I am willing at this stage to take the minister's word that this is indeed new money and not the previously announced £91 million being carved up and recycled. New money is needed for some important aspects of child care. In a sense, this strategy has been in its embryonic stage since May 1998. Much has been said about the strategy since then. I noticed that Nicola Sturgeon was handing out credit, but she omitted to mention the fact that credit for much of what we now have should go to the previous Conservative Government. I was disappointed, given that she was trying to be so nice to everyone. Let me remind the chamber that it was the introduction of nursery vouchers by the Conservative Government that ensured a real political debate on this issue. Some parties are, of course, against nursery vouchers, but it was their introduction that ensured that other parties, not least the party that is now in power, had to find a response. There was nursery provision, but it was patchy. Nursery provision was good under Lothian Regional Council, for example, but provision was not of the same standard everywhere. Nursery vouchers ensured that parents could exercise choice—between provision by the local authority and, where such provision did not exist, by the voluntary and private sectors.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am pleased to welcome what the minister said. I see that that brings a smile to his face. I hope that he will still be smiling at the end of my short contribution.

It is appropriate that we discuss this subject as we celebrate the anniversary of the signing of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child by the Conservative Government in 1991. In 1992, we followed that by signing up to the European Union recommendation on child care.

I am always pleased to hear new announcements on spending from the Government, as it gives us a chance to work out whether the money is new, reheated or recycled. I am willing at this stage to take the minister's word that this is indeed new money and not the previously announced £91 million being carved up and recycled. New money is needed for some important aspects of child care.

In a sense, this strategy has been in its embryonic stage since May 1998. Much has been said about the strategy since then. I noticed that Nicola Sturgeon was handing out credit, but she omitted to mention the fact that credit for much of what we now have should go to the previous Conservative Government. I was disappointed, given that she was trying to be so nice to everyone.

Let me remind the chamber that it was the introduction of nursery vouchers by the Conservative Government that ensured a real political debate on this issue. Some parties are, of course, against nursery vouchers, but it was their introduction that ensured that other parties, not least the party that is now in power, had to find a response. There was nursery provision, but it was patchy. Nursery provision was good under Lothian Regional Council, for example, but provision was not of the same standard everywhere. Nursery vouchers ensured that parents could exercise choice—between provision by the local authority and, where such provision did not exist, by the

voluntary and private sectors.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5295195+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2123E103P242C711644", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Nov 1999", "ID": 4191 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Child Care Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27065, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27065, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Chisholm, Malcolm", "ID": 2123, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh North and Leith" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Malcolm Chisholm", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Malcolm Chisholm: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 36.0, "ContributionID": 711644, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5295195+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C711645", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Nov 1999", "ID": 4191 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Child Care Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27065, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27065, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Monteith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 38.0, "ContributionID": 711645, "EditedText": "I am practically out of time, but I will give way if the intervention is relevant to my previous point.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am practically out of time, but I will give way if the intervention is relevant to my previous point.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5295195+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1837E108P186C711650", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Nov 1999", "ID": 4191 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Child Care Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27065, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27065, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mulligan, Mary", "ID": 1837, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Linlithgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Mulligan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Mary Mulligan (Linlithgow) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 50.0, "ContributionID": 711650, "EditedText": "I welcome today's announcements. Any child care strategy should be developed in the way that this strategy has been—with much input from many people. Although the Parliament needs to give a lead, delivery will come through local agencies, particularly local authorities, and provision will be influenced by local factors, which is as it should be. My local authority, West Lothian Council, has set up an early-years and child care partnership. My colleagues will not mind if I list the members of that partnership: parents, voluntary organisations, businesses, private nurseries, career development organisations and education, community, strategic and health services. It is important to bring all interested parties together. The partnership plans take account of all aspects of local need, such as involvement, cost- effectiveness and quality assurance. We should be providing not just a quantity of provision, but high-quality provision. There is an obvious demand for wrap-around care. With local authorities such as West Lothian Council guaranteeing that by 2002 there will be a part-time place for every three-year-old who needs it, the question is how such pre-school education fits into child care provision. Many of us know that a child starting nursery can cause problems with the child care arrangements that parents already have. Although parents want their children to attend nursery to build relationships with other children, there are few people who can work for two and a half hours a day. Parents need to find both the necessary nursery facilities and the child care that will allow them to work. Only a true partnership approach can answer such needs and provide such wrap-around care. I welcome the long-term funding, which is essential. I agree with some of Nicola Sturgeon's points about initiatives that have provided money in the past, but only for first-year start-ups. Many of the people working in out-of-school provision are parents who offer their time voluntarily. My own experience is that assistance with start-up costs is necessary, but many such service providers can take time to establish themselves and to gain the confidence of parents. It is perhaps in the second and third years that there have been problems in the past, but the longer-term funding arrangements that have been announced will alleviate those problems. So will the introduction of working families tax credit, which will provide people with the income necessary to pay for child care, and to ensure that provision is continuous. The same issue arises with the provision of holiday care, particularly for children of school age. That is yet another area where the working families tax credit will be of assistance. Local authorities are starting to examine how they ensure provision of child care for children with special needs. It might be useful to find out how that experience and knowledge could be shared among authorities. The Minister for Children and Education mentioned the telephone helpline in his speech. I wonder whether an element of that could specifically assist the parents of children with special needs and point them in the right direction. Today's announcements will improve women's options; they will help ensure that children are well cared for; and they will support families into the future.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome today's announcements. Any child care strategy should be developed in the way that this strategy has been—with much input from many people.

Although the Parliament needs to give a lead, delivery will come through local agencies, particularly local authorities, and provision will be influenced by local factors, which is as it should be. My local authority, West Lothian Council, has set up an early-years and child care partnership. My colleagues will not mind if I list the members of that partnership: parents, voluntary organisations, businesses, private nurseries, career development organisations and education, community, strategic and health services. It is important to bring all interested parties together.

The partnership plans take account of all aspects of local need, such as involvement, cost- effectiveness and quality assurance. We should be providing not just a quantity of provision, but high-quality provision.

There is an obvious demand for wrap-around care. With local authorities such as West Lothian Council guaranteeing that by 2002 there will be a part-time place for every three-year-old who needs it, the question is how such pre-school education fits into child care provision. Many of us know that a child starting nursery can cause problems with the child care arrangements that parents already have. Although parents want their children to attend nursery to build relationships with other children, there are few people who can work for two and a half hours a day. Parents need to find both the necessary nursery facilities and the child care that will allow them to work. Only a true partnership approach can answer such needs and provide such wrap-around care.

I welcome the long-term funding, which is essential. I agree with some of Nicola Sturgeon's points about initiatives that have provided money in the past, but only for first-year start-ups. Many of the people working in out-of-school provision are parents who offer their time voluntarily.

My own experience is that assistance with start-up costs is necessary, but many such service providers can take time to establish themselves and to gain the confidence of parents. It is perhaps in the second and third years that there have been problems in the past, but the longer-term funding arrangements that have been announced will alleviate those problems. So will the introduction of working families tax credit, which will provide people with the income necessary to pay for child care, and to ensure that provision is continuous.

The same issue arises with the provision of holiday care, particularly for children of school age. That is yet another area where the working families tax credit will be of assistance.

Local authorities are starting to examine how they ensure provision of child care for children with special needs. It might be useful to find out how that experience and knowledge could be shared among authorities. The Minister for Children and Education mentioned the telephone helpline in his speech. I wonder whether an element of that could specifically assist the parents of children with special needs and point them in the right direction.

Today's announcements will improve women's options; they will help ensure that children are well cared for; and they will support families into the future.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5295195+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1865E219P509C711653", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Nov 1999", "ID": 4191 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Child Care Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27065, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27065, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "White, Sandra", "ID": 1865, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sandra White", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Sandra White (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 59.0, "ContributionID": 711653, "EditedText": "I thank Malcolm Chisholm for his contribution, even though he said about a quarter of the things that I wanted to say in my speech. The Scottish National party welcomes the debate. Good, affordable child care has always been a flagship policy of ours. However, no motion or strategy is perfect, even if it comes from this Executive. I firmly believe that our amendment strengthens the motion, and I ask the minister to accept it. It also addresses some of the concerns that have been mentioned during the debate. There should be a seamless approach to child care from the time before the child starts school. In many instances, that is not the case. I will speak about top-slicing, as Brian Monteith did, but I will come at it from a different angle. We know that the Government allocates £1,175 to schools for every school place, but each local authority has a different type of top-slicing. Glasgow City Council top-slices £250 from that figure, leaving £925 per place. City of Edinburgh Council top-slices only £134, leaving £1,041. North Lanarkshire top-slices £242, leaving £933. South Lanarkshire, however, top-slices the same amount as Glasgow does. My point is that that causes confusion for providers that deal with different authorities. I would like the minister to address that and perhaps put a strategy in place to allow all local authorities to work together. Training is a related issue. Top-sliced money goes to training and, while some local authorities with staff who are on placements from other local authorities are flexible and will pay for training in the local authority where the nursery is based, others insist that the teachers are sent to the local authority that they came from. That means that the member of staff is not at work for two or three days and the nursery must pay the travel costs. A further problem is payment. Many providers have come to me to discuss local authorities that make late payments. I hate to say this, but Glasgow is probably one of the worst. At the moment, there are people in the Glasgow area who have not been paid since August. Glasgow City Council received some of the funding from the Scottish Office, but it has not paid it out. That has meant that the nurseries are in debt. People are telling me that they are practically closing down, as they have had to arrange overdrafts with their banks. I would like the Executive to consider that and determine whether something can be done to help those nurseries. It is important to them and to child development that people use those nurseries.As I said, I hoped that the Executive would take our amendment on board. We need to secure long-term funding. The motion does not address that properly; our amendment enhances the motion. We also need integration of provision, as I have highlighted.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank Malcolm Chisholm for his contribution, even though he said about a quarter of the things that I wanted to say in my speech.

The Scottish National party welcomes the debate. Good, affordable child care has always been a flagship policy of ours. However, no motion or strategy is perfect, even if it comes from this Executive. I firmly believe that our amendment strengthens the motion, and I ask the minister to accept it. It also addresses some of the concerns that have been mentioned during the debate.

There should be a seamless approach to child care from the time before the child starts school. In many instances, that is not the case. I will speak about top-slicing, as Brian Monteith did, but I will come at it from a different angle. We know that the Government allocates £1,175 to schools for every school place, but each local authority has a different type of top-slicing. Glasgow City Council top-slices £250 from that figure, leaving £925 per place. City of Edinburgh Council top-slices only £134, leaving £1,041. North Lanarkshire top-slices £242, leaving £933. South Lanarkshire, however, top-slices the same amount as Glasgow does. My point is that that causes confusion for providers that deal with different authorities. I would like the minister to address that and perhaps put a strategy in place to allow all local authorities to work together.

Training is a related issue. Top-sliced money goes to training and, while some local authorities with staff who are on placements from other local authorities are flexible and will pay for training in the local authority where the nursery is based, others insist that the teachers are sent to the local authority that they came from. That means that the member of staff is not at work for two or three days and the nursery must pay the travel costs.

A further problem is payment. Many providers have come to me to discuss local authorities that make late payments. I hate to say this, but Glasgow is probably one of the worst. At the moment, there are people in the Glasgow area who have not been paid since August.

Glasgow City Council received some of the funding from the Scottish Office, but it has not paid it out. That has meant that the nurseries are in debt. People are telling me that they are practically closing down, as they have had to arrange overdrafts with their banks. I would like the Executive to consider that and determine whether something can be done to help those nurseries. It is important to them and to child development that

people use those nurseries.

As I said, I hoped that the Executive would take our amendment on board. We need to secure long-term funding. The motion does not address that properly; our amendment enhances the motion. We also need integration of provision, as I have highlighted.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5295195+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C711655", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Nov 1999", "ID": 4191 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Child Care Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27065, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27065, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 65.0, "ContributionID": 711655, "EditedText": "As a parent who depended very much on the good will of my own family, my in-laws and friends, I welcome the child care strategy. There is no doubt that a more co-ordinated and consistent provision will ensure that each child has the opportunity to start school with a similar level of pre-school experience and education—to start with the same advantage. As Nicola Sturgeon said, the two years of pre-school should not be an extension of school. While I welcome the use of teachers in child care, there is a quite different approach to teaching reading and writing in the classroom and to the learning through play that means that children develop emotionally, socially, physically and in intellectual terms, as outlined in the curriculum framework for pre-school children. Anyone going from teaching into child care needs some form of retraining to address the differences between pre-school education and the more formal approach of school teaching. As a lecturer in further education, I found it heartbreaking to discover people in their 20s and 30s, and even older sometimes, who at that stage found they were dyslexic. I talked to the National Autistic Society and to people experienced in working with children with learning disabilities who believe that the assessing, observing and training required in the child care strategy could be utilised for early detection of learning needs, such as dyslexia, autism and Asperger's syndrome. According to the National Autistic Society, only a small number of pre-school children get the early intervention that would identify and address those problems. It is generally accepted that the earlier a true diagnosis is made the better for the child, the family and those around them, because effective strategies can be employed only if the true nature of a condition is known. I ask the Minister for Children and Education to ensure that the new strategy includes identification of learning difficulties so that appropriate support can be given. I have also been talking to providers of pre-school playgroups who feel that now that we have a more co-ordinated approach, with better health service links and so on, it is an ideal time to address the issue. When we talk about all three and four-year-olds receiving child care, does that mean two years of pre-school education? That question was put to me—the Minister for Children and Education is shaking his head. I am told it can mean one year and four months. I return to Brian Monteith's point, that it is only after their child has begun pre-school education that many parents realise that the child is not mature enough to go to school at the expected time. Is there flexibility to allow the parent to retain the child in pre-school education for a further year?", "EditedTextHTML": "As a parent who depended very much on the good will of my own family, my in-laws and friends, I welcome the child care strategy. There is no doubt that a more co-ordinated and consistent provision will ensure that each child has the opportunity to start school with a similar level of pre-school

experience and education—to start with the same advantage.

As Nicola Sturgeon said, the two years of pre-school should not be an extension of school. While I welcome the use of teachers in child care, there is a quite different approach to teaching reading and writing in the classroom and to the learning through play that means that children develop emotionally, socially, physically and in intellectual terms, as outlined in the curriculum framework for pre-school children. Anyone going from teaching into child care needs some form of retraining to address the differences between pre-school education and the more formal approach of school teaching.

As a lecturer in further education, I found it heartbreaking to discover people in their 20s and 30s, and even older sometimes, who at that stage found they were dyslexic. I talked to the National Autistic Society and to people experienced in working with children with learning disabilities who believe that the assessing, observing and training required in the child care strategy could be utilised for early detection of learning needs, such as dyslexia, autism and Asperger's syndrome. According to the National Autistic Society, only a small number of pre-school children get the early intervention that would identify and address those problems.

It is generally accepted that the earlier a true diagnosis is made the better for the child, the family and those around them, because effective strategies can be employed only if the true nature of a condition is known. I ask the Minister for Children and Education to ensure that the new strategy includes identification of learning difficulties so that appropriate support can be given. I have also been talking to providers of pre-school playgroups who feel that now that we have a more co-ordinated approach, with better health service links and so on, it is an ideal time to address the issue.

When we talk about all three and four-year-olds receiving child care, does that mean two years of pre-school education? That question was put to me—the Minister for Children and Education is shaking his head. I am told it can mean one year and four months. I return to Brian Monteith's point, that it is only after their child has begun pre-school education that many parents realise that the child is not mature enough to go to school at the expected time. Is there flexibility to allow the parent to retain the child in pre-school education for a further year?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5295195+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1973E119P326C711658", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Nov 1999", "ID": 4191 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Child Care Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27065, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27065, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gorrie, Donald", "ID": 1973, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Donald Gorrie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Donald Gorrie (Central Scotland) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 74.0, "ContributionID": 711658, "EditedText": "I would like to congratulate the Executive on the progress that it has made on child care. The issue is widely supported across the parties and the Executive has grounds for being congratulated on what it has achieved. However, I was disappointed that Sam Galbraith did not accept the amendment. I could not see why the phrase that he apparently objected to— \"considers that efforts must now be directed at securing long-term sustainable funding for childcare\"— was necessarily critical of the Executive; it could be taken as adding to the motion. Regardless of party, all Governments have a problem about sustainable funding of anything. There is flavour of the month funding: new issue funding, when new names are invented. New projects get the funding, but once they are up and running, they are forgotten about. Often, after two or three years, when everyone is doing a splendid job and has learned what to do, a project gets cut off in its prime. We would not like that to happen to this Parliament, nor does anybody in a voluntary group or project like it happening to them, but it does. It is an important issue. Nicola Sturgeon is right to draw attention to it and it is not necessarily a criticism of the Government to include it. One or two speakers have already mentioned the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child. We should pay more attention to that. The programme so far could be described as pro- parent rather than pro-child. It helps children, of course, but it helps them from the parents' perspective. We need to consider the child's perspective and work up a system of advocates to look after the interests of children in policy making, in addition to our efforts to promote youth forums and other projects for slightly older children. We do not necessarily need a commission or commissioner for children, although some of the issues surrounding that idea are well worth considering. The Government must examine the ways in which we can represent the interests of children as well as the interests of parents. The subject of child care includes facilities for the older age group, such as after-school clubs. I recently met senior representatives of Strathclyde police, who feel that reducing truancy would do more than any other measure to improve our society, because many young people go wrong through truancy. Our child care strategy should include the slightly older age group. If we could put together a sensible procedure—not just a heavy in a big hat coming to arrest kids—for working with children, families and schools to get the children back into school, we would achieve a great deal. With some exceptions, we are quite good about children and are working on the issue of child care. However, our performance as far as youth work is concerned has been absolutely lamentable. Voluntary organisations that help young people have been cut, cut, cut and cut. We give teenagers less and less to do, but we blame them for going wrong. Our child care strategy must extend into the double figures age group as well as the younger age group. I give the Executive some good marks for effort but, rather like the Scottish football team, it could do better.", "EditedTextHTML": "I would like to congratulate the Executive on the progress that it has made on child care. The issue is widely supported across the parties and the Executive has grounds for being congratulated on what it has achieved. However, I was disappointed that Sam Galbraith did not accept the amendment. I could not see why the phrase that he apparently objected to—

\"considers that efforts must now be directed at securing long-term sustainable funding for childcare\"— was necessarily critical of the Executive; it could be taken as adding to the motion.

Regardless of party, all Governments have a problem about sustainable funding of anything. There is flavour of the month funding: new issue funding, when new names are invented. New projects get the funding, but once they are up and running, they are forgotten about. Often, after two or three years, when everyone is doing a splendid job and has learned what to do, a project gets cut off in its prime. We would not like that to happen to this Parliament, nor does anybody in a voluntary group or project like it happening to them, but it does. It is an important issue. Nicola Sturgeon is right to draw attention to it and it is not necessarily a criticism of the Government to include it.

One or two speakers have already mentioned the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child. We should pay more attention to that. The programme so far could be described as pro- parent rather than pro-child. It helps children, of course, but it helps them from the parents' perspective. We need to consider the child's perspective and work up a system of advocates to look after the interests of children in policy making, in addition to our efforts to promote youth forums and other projects for slightly older children.

We do not necessarily need a commission or commissioner for children, although some of the issues surrounding that idea are well worth considering. The Government must examine the ways in which we can represent the interests of children as well as the interests of parents.

The subject of child care includes facilities for the older age group, such as after-school clubs. I recently met senior representatives of Strathclyde police, who feel that reducing truancy would do more than any other measure to improve our society, because many young people go wrong through truancy. Our child care strategy should include the slightly older age group. If we could put together a sensible procedure—not just a heavy in a big hat coming to arrest kids—for working with children, families and schools to get the children back into school, we would achieve a great deal.

With some exceptions, we are quite good about children and are working on the issue of child care. However, our performance as far as youth work is concerned has been absolutely lamentable. Voluntary organisations that help young people have been cut, cut, cut and cut. We give teenagers less and less to do, but we blame them for going wrong. Our child care strategy must extend into the double figures age group as well as the younger age group. I give the Executive some good marks for effort but, rather like the Scottish football team, it could do better.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5295195+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1950E155P451C711666", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Nov 1999", "ID": 4191 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Child Care Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27065, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27065, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Campbell, Colin", "ID": 1950, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Colin Campbell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Colin Campbell (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 92.0, "ContributionID": 711666, "EditedText": "I suppose I had better declare an interest. I am the grandparent of children who are in child care, nursery and primary school, the parent of two school teachers and the husband of a former school teacher. I am also a former head teacher of a secondary school in what could be called an area of fairly bad deprivation. Members will forgive me if I approach this topic in reverse chronological order. I will start at secondary and move backwards, although I know that that is an eccentric approach and is not really the way in which the system works. When I began in education, I was privileged enough to be faced with children who could read and write in secondary 1. As time went on, I was faced with children who could not read and write in secondary 1. In the bad old days, there was the myth of the fresh start. When children came from primary school, the slate was wiped clean, and we started from scratch, as if nothing had happened in the previous 11 years of their lives. I am pleased to say that things have moved on since then. We expect to get good reporting from nursery to primary and from primary to secondary.I hope never to see the kind of report I once saw for a primary 7 pupil, who had come to my school from one of the feeder primary schools—or associated primaries, as they are now called. It said: \"X cannot write, cannot read, misbehaves frequently and unfortunately has perfect attendance.\" That was highly accurate, but a total condemnation of the system. Too little had been done, and it was probably already far too late for the child to be educationally or socially redeemed. More seriously, I have seen children whose lives were in constant turmoil and for whom the school was an island of calm and sanity. For the first time, child care will provide that calm for many children. I have met parents whose expectations of their child's capabilities and promise were well wide of the mark, and whose illusions had been allowed to last for too long. Such parents are so set it is impossible for them to face up to reality and to help their children. I have seen parents despair at the inability of the system to help them promptly with their child's educational or social needs. We have a child care strategy, and the endgame is to improve the lives of children. The initial years are the formative ones. I would have mentioned Ignatius Loyola's comments on the first seven years, but Helen Eadie stole them. Great benefits can accrue to the child and great damage can be done to the child in those formative years. Frequently, the inadequacies of the child pass undiagnosed. In my experience of the educational psychological services—I do not dispute their professional expertise—too few psychologists were available. They could not take on all the problems that were brought to them and it took too long to bring the child and the psychologist together. I have anecdotal evidence—I will not say from where—about a hyperactive child who had to wait a year before seeing a psychologist. The child was then put on methyl-phenidate, or Ritalin, which is not an ideal or universally acceptable antidote. The child was last seen as a docile attendee in class, not an active participant. Last night, a child care provider told me, when I rang up to see what it was like on the front line, that she had very young child, who was not even of nursery age, for whom she was already seeking help. Experienced staff face that on a day-to-day basis. The shortage of skilled professional help exacerbates the individual's problems, disrupts the group and puts unnecessary strain on staff and parents. The extension of child care, linking with nurseries and the formal education that follows, must be seen as the chance to create an integrated system of providers, so that the standards of provision are high, the accommodation delivers a message of hope and well-trained staff are able to identify children who need specialised help. For that to happen, there need to be sufficient psychological support staff, special educational needs staff and parent educators and counsellors for those parents who are in difficult learning situations too. I hope that Peter Peacock will assure me that that will be systematically built into the provision. Every pound spent on the start of young lives will save money later in the system. Although the Minister for Children and Education rejects our amendment, because of its long-term, sustainable funding implications, I hope that morally, if not politically, he will subscribe to its spirit.", "EditedTextHTML": "I suppose I had better declare an interest. I am the grandparent of children who are in child care, nursery and primary school, the parent of two school teachers and the husband of a former school teacher. I am also a former head teacher of a secondary school in what could be called an area of fairly bad deprivation.

Members will forgive me if I approach this topic in reverse chronological order. I will start at secondary and move backwards, although I know that that is an eccentric approach and is not really the way in which the system works. When I began in education, I was privileged enough to be faced with children who could read and write in secondary 1. As time went on, I was faced with children who could not read and write in secondary 1. In the bad old days, there was the myth of the fresh start. When children came from primary school, the slate was wiped clean, and we started from scratch, as if nothing had happened in the previous 11 years of their lives. I am pleased to say that things have moved on since then. We expect to get good reporting from

nursery to primary and from primary to secondary.

I hope never to see the kind of report I once saw for a primary 7 pupil, who had come to my school from one of the feeder primary schools—or associated primaries, as they are now called. It said:

\"X cannot write, cannot read, misbehaves frequently and unfortunately has perfect attendance.\"

That was highly accurate, but a total condemnation of the system. Too little had been done, and it was probably already far too late for the child to be educationally or socially redeemed.

More seriously, I have seen children whose lives were in constant turmoil and for whom the school was an island of calm and sanity. For the first time, child care will provide that calm for many children. I have met parents whose expectations of their child's capabilities and promise were well wide of the mark, and whose illusions had been allowed to last for too long. Such parents are so set it is impossible for them to face up to reality and to help their children. I have seen parents despair at the inability of the system to help them promptly with their child's educational or social needs.

We have a child care strategy, and the endgame is to improve the lives of children. The initial years are the formative ones. I would have mentioned Ignatius Loyola's comments on the first seven years, but Helen Eadie stole them. Great benefits can accrue to the child and great damage can be done to the child in those formative years. Frequently, the inadequacies of the child pass undiagnosed.

In my experience of the educational psychological services—I do not dispute their professional expertise—too few psychologists were available. They could not take on all the problems that were brought to them and it took too long to bring the child and the psychologist together. I have anecdotal evidence—I will not say from where—about a hyperactive child who had to wait a year before seeing a psychologist. The child was then put on methyl-phenidate, or Ritalin, which is not an ideal or universally acceptable antidote. The child was last seen as a docile attendee in class, not an active participant.

Last night, a child care provider told me, when I rang up to see what it was like on the front line, that she had very young child, who was not even of nursery age, for whom she was already seeking help. Experienced staff face that on a day-to-day basis. The shortage of skilled professional help exacerbates the individual's problems, disrupts the group and puts unnecessary strain on staff and parents.

The extension of child care, linking with nurseries and the formal education that follows, must be seen as the chance to create an integrated system of providers, so that the standards of provision are high, the accommodation delivers a message of hope and well-trained staff are able to identify children who need specialised help. For that to happen, there need to be sufficient psychological support staff, special educational needs staff and parent educators and counsellors for those parents who are in difficult learning situations too. I hope that Peter Peacock will assure me that that will be systematically built into the provision.

Every pound spent on the start of young lives will save money later in the system. Although the Minister for Children and Education rejects our amendment, because of its long-term, sustainable funding implications, I hope that morally, if not politically, he will subscribe to its spirit.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5295195+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C711667", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Nov 1999", "ID": 4191 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Child Care Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27065, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27065, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Galbraith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 94.0, "ContributionID": 711667, "EditedText": "Most certainly.", "EditedTextHTML": "Most certainly.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5295195+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1873E89P171C711668", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Nov 1999", "ID": 4191 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Child Care Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27065, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27065, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jackson, Dr Sylvia", "ID": 1873, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Stirling" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sylvia Jackson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Sylvia Jackson (Stirling) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 97.0, "ContributionID": 711668, "EditedText": "Sam Galbraith has already spoken about the substantial investment in child care. On 21 September, he announced an additional £91 million, which was broken down into £42 million and £49 million. Today, he highlighted an extra £14 million. I am sure that in winding up, Peter Peacock will assure Mr Monteith that that is extra money, as he disputed whether it was recycled money or new money. It is new money. Stirling, which Mr Monteith knows well, will receive an extra £191,000 for 2000-01. I will talk about the importance of our child care strategy in two ways, as there is a dual agenda. The principal aim, which has been mentioned in many speeches today, is to promote greater social inclusion. That involves providing much-needed support for parents and widening the horizons of parents and, importantly, children. Many members have spoken about putting children at the centre. The second aim is to allow parents to return to work knowing that their children are being cared for in a high-quality environment. The £49 million is being put into child care partnerships and regulatory and inspection mechanisms to ensure that it is a high-quality environment. The Government has also acknowledged that, as we move towards nursery education for three to five-year-olds, there is a need to provide a partnership of provision that allows parents flexibility to choose the system most appropriate to their needs. I have received many letters about that issue. Many parents support the pre-school playgroup approach, which encourages parental involvement. That is important and I would like it to be extended wherever possible. Mary Scanlon made a good point in asking what we should be providing at that crucial stage in children's education. A lot of research is examining the importance of dialogue as well as play. Another point that Mary Scanlon mentioned is that it is important that, as far as possible, the system is sufficiently flexible to allow parents the right of deferred entry and still enable them to access two years of pre-school education. Another issue that has been raised in letters I have received is the point about going across local authority boundaries as it might be more convenient for some parents to access pre-school provision near to the workplace. I will briefly raise another issue of crucial importance. I do not know how many people saw the \"Despatches\" programme last week about the number of children who are living on the streets. Last night's BBC 2 programme about a primary school in Wales showed that teachers are having severe difficulty meeting the needs of the disadvantaged pupils who attend their school. One way to deal with these issues is the rough sleepers initiative, which Wendy Alexander spoke about last week. Another strategy is the move towards more community schools, which is an attempt to have more co-ordination and integration between teachers, social workers and health professionals. In Stirling, the director of children's services has identified four main principles: put children at the centre; go for inclusion and recognise the rights, needs and wishes of children; go for quality; and go for partnership. It is early days in Stirling, looking at our new community school, but we have already started discussions between the various professionals and the signs are promising. I will finish with a quotation from one of the teachers in the BBC 2 programme last night. She said: \"Each morning, coming into our school, we have hungry children, sad children, bruised children, children who simply want a cuddle.\" Add to that the problems of drink and drugs on the streets: these immense problems need a holistic child care strategy such as the one the Government is pursuing.", "EditedTextHTML": "Sam Galbraith has already spoken about the substantial investment in child care. On 21 September, he announced an additional £91 million, which was broken down into £42 million and £49 million. Today, he highlighted an extra £14 million. I am sure that in winding up, Peter Peacock will assure Mr Monteith that that is extra money, as he disputed whether it was recycled money or new money. It is new money. Stirling, which Mr Monteith knows well, will receive an extra £191,000 for 2000-01.

I will talk about the importance of our child care strategy in two ways, as there is a dual agenda. The principal aim, which has been mentioned in many speeches today, is to promote greater social inclusion. That involves providing much-needed support for parents and widening the horizons of parents and, importantly, children. Many members have spoken about putting children at the centre.

The second aim is to allow parents to return to work knowing that their children are being cared for in a high-quality environment. The £49 million is being put into child care partnerships and regulatory and inspection mechanisms to ensure that it is a high-quality environment.

The Government has also acknowledged that, as we move towards nursery education for three to five-year-olds, there is a need to provide a partnership of provision that allows parents flexibility to choose the system most appropriate to their needs. I have received many letters about that issue. Many parents support the pre-school playgroup approach, which encourages parental involvement. That is important and I would like it to be extended wherever possible.

Mary Scanlon made a good point in asking what we should be providing at that crucial stage in children's education. A lot of research is examining the importance of dialogue as well as play. Another point that Mary Scanlon mentioned is that it is important that, as far as possible, the system is sufficiently flexible to allow parents the right of deferred entry and still enable them to access two years of pre-school education.

Another issue that has been raised in letters I have received is the point about going across local authority boundaries as it might be more convenient for some parents to access pre-school provision near to the workplace.

I will briefly raise another issue of crucial importance. I do not know how many people saw the \"Despatches\" programme last week about the number of children who are living on the streets. Last night's BBC 2 programme about a primary school in Wales showed that teachers are having severe difficulty meeting the needs of the disadvantaged pupils who attend their school.

One way to deal with these issues is the rough sleepers initiative, which Wendy Alexander spoke about last week. Another strategy is the move towards more community schools, which is an attempt to have more co-ordination and integration between teachers, social workers and health professionals.

In Stirling, the director of children's services has identified four main principles: put children at the centre; go for inclusion and recognise the rights, needs and wishes of children; go for quality; and go for partnership. It is early days in Stirling, looking at our new community school, but we have already started discussions between the various professionals and the signs are promising.

I will finish with a quotation from one of the teachers in the BBC 2 programme last night. She said:

\"Each morning, coming into our school, we have hungry children, sad children, bruised children, children who simply want a cuddle.\"

Add to that the problems of drink and drugs on the streets: these immense problems need a holistic child care strategy such as the one the Government is pursuing.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5295195+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2234E7P20C711672", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Nov 1999", "ID": 4191 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Child Care Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27065, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27065, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Aitken, Bill", "ID": 2234, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bill Aitken", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bill Aitken (Glasgow) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 109.0, "ContributionID": 711672, "EditedText": "It was appropriate that in his opening address Sam Galbraith stressed the importance of child care. It is noticeable that many people have spoken on the same themes. Quite frequently these days, there is an almost depressing consensus in the chamber. When one of the principal participants is Sam Galbraith, however, that is unique. Nevertheless, much of what he said was genuinely welcomed on all sides. I am somewhat bemused by the fact that the press release issued by the Scottish Executive claims in its first paragraph that this money represents an increase of £8 million in this year's allocation. That may be correct, but if I am not mistaken, it was not that long ago that an announcement was made along the same lines. Therefore, while today's announcement is good news, it is most certainly not new news. We are pleased to have the opportunity to debate this issue. The recurrent themes today were quality, flexibility, variety and choice of care. We were all pleased to hear Sam Galbraith refer to the fact that there will be increased quality control in nursery care. We have come a long way since the days when the King Herod school of nursery care was the norm. Children are important. They are the most vulnerable section of society and we must ensure that they are looked after in a caring and safe environment. The quality test has undoubtedly been passed, but the minister fails to recognise that there must be flexibility, variety and choice in nursery provision. The aims of nursery education vary. No one any longer thinks that nurseries are a dumping ground for kids while people are at work, but different families have different requirements. Some will consider early play a vital aspect of their child's development; others may see nursery as an opportunity for their child to develop social skills at an early age; many will see learning as the priority in choosing provision. Through the removal of the voucher system that was introduced by the Conservatives, the Government has removed a substantial and important element of choice. Let us be blunt. Labour's decision to abolish the nursery voucher scheme took choice away from parents and increased the opportunities for local authorities to have a monopoly of nursery care. Brian Monteith highlighted the figures. It is quite clear that over the past two and a half years the percentage of nursery places in the public sector has increased, largely at the expense of the private sector. We submit that that is not a satisfactory state of affairs. Quite clearly, many local authorities—for reasons of blind politics— have sought to restrict the private sector's contribution to this important aspect of our children's care. Helen Eadie criticised the lack of provision under the previous Government, but the introduction of the voucher system represented an opportunity to increase the amount of care that was provided. I remind her that local authorities had the opportunity to make that provision themselves. Most of them were Labour controlled and failed, lamentably, to do so. Other aspects of the Government's policies have militated against private sector child care. To some extent the working families tax credit works against those who seek to provide child care in their own homes—which many, even since the demise of the nuclear family, regard as the most satisfactory method of child care. One need only look at the comments of Frank Field to realise that, even among Labour politicians, there is an awareness that not all is well there. Some aspects of child care remain highly dependent on the good will of the Westminster Government. After-hours clubs have been very successful, but they are reliant on the funding that is provided by the new opportunities fund, which is controlled by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Mr Galbraith indicated disagreement.", "EditedTextHTML": "It was appropriate that in his opening address Sam Galbraith stressed the importance of child care. It is noticeable that many people have spoken on the same themes. Quite frequently these days, there is an almost depressing consensus in the chamber. When one of the principal participants is Sam Galbraith, however, that is unique. Nevertheless, much of what he said was genuinely welcomed on all sides.

I am somewhat bemused by the fact that the press release issued by the Scottish Executive claims in its first paragraph that this money represents an increase of £8 million in this year's allocation. That may be correct, but if I am not mistaken, it was not that long ago that an announcement was made along the same lines. Therefore, while today's announcement is good news, it is most certainly not new news.

We are pleased to have the opportunity to debate this issue. The recurrent themes today were quality, flexibility, variety and choice of care. We were all pleased to hear Sam Galbraith refer to the fact that there will be increased quality control in nursery care. We have come a long way since the days when the King Herod school of nursery care was the norm. Children are important. They are the most vulnerable section of society and we must ensure that they are looked after in a caring and safe environment.

The quality test has undoubtedly been passed, but the minister fails to recognise that there must be flexibility, variety and choice in nursery provision. The aims of nursery education vary. No one any longer thinks that nurseries are a dumping ground for kids while people are at work, but different families have different requirements. Some will consider early play a vital aspect of their child's development; others may see nursery as an opportunity for their child to develop social skills at an early age; many will see learning as the priority in choosing provision. Through the removal of the voucher system that was introduced by the Conservatives, the Government has removed a substantial and important element of choice.

Let us be blunt. Labour's decision to abolish the nursery voucher scheme took choice away from parents and increased the opportunities for local authorities to have a monopoly of nursery care.

Brian Monteith highlighted the figures. It is quite clear that over the past two and a half years the percentage of nursery places in the public sector has increased, largely at the expense of the private sector. We submit that that is not a satisfactory state of affairs. Quite clearly, many local authorities—for reasons of blind politics— have sought to restrict the private sector's contribution to this important aspect of our children's care.

Helen Eadie criticised the lack of provision under the previous Government, but the introduction of the voucher system represented an opportunity to increase the amount of care that was provided. I remind her that local authorities had the opportunity to make that provision themselves. Most of them were Labour controlled and failed, lamentably, to do so.

Other aspects of the Government's policies have militated against private sector child care. To some extent the working families tax credit works against those who seek to provide child care in their own homes—which many, even since the demise of the nuclear family, regard as the most satisfactory method of child care. One need only look at the comments of Frank Field to realise that, even among Labour politicians, there is an awareness that not all is well there.

Some aspects of child care remain highly dependent on the good will of the Westminster Government. After-hours clubs have been very successful, but they are reliant on the funding that is provided by the new opportunities fund, which is controlled by the Chancellor of the Exchequer.

Mr Galbraith indicated disagreement.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5295195+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1775E171P452C711675", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Nov 1999", "ID": 4191 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Child Care Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27065, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27065, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeod, Fiona", "ID": 1775, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona McLeod", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona McLeod: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 116.0, "ContributionID": 711675, "EditedText": "Mr Galbraith is shaking his head, but in the introduction to the consultative document that was issued last year, \"Meeting the Childcare Challenge: A Childcare Strategy for Scotland\", Donald Dewar said: \"In our election manifesto we undertook to produce a childcare strategy for Scotland which would ‘match the requirements of a modern labour market'\". In the same introduction, Tony Blair declares that he wants \"to encourage more family friendly employment\".For me, those are not words that inspire a vision of a child care strategy. Mr Galbraith's opening remarks gave no indication of a Government that was prepared to learn or to move on. He dismissed the SNP's amendment because it includes the dread word funding, but today that issue has been raised repeatedly by members of all parties and the minister has signally failed to deal with it. The SNP has long been committed to nursery places for all three and four-year-olds whose parents want them. However, we have taken a holistic, child-centred approach with our plans for children's centres. A child care strategy must provide an integrated service that caters for all the child's needs. We must give all children a suitable and stable environment that gives them, and their parents or carers, access to all the services that they need in one place, with no shuttling between breakfast club, pre-school care, childminder, play scheme and health visitor. Children need a centred approach to life; they do not need to be on a conveyor belt. The minister mentioned sure start Scotland and how it will apply to children up to the age of three. It will bring services to the child. As part of the vision, it would be nice if that could be broadened out to include all our children. Children's centres would be one-stop shops for child care and could be managed as such, ensuring that all aspects of a child's life were in balance, and that the funding could be assured and long-term. One of the SNP's main criticisms of the child care strategy as it is constructed at present is the precariousness of the funding. That is a big problem. Using lottery funding to fund child care is not a sign of commitment. Using one-year lottery funding is putting many providers in jeopardy. There was almost universal condemnation of that funding mechanism in the submissions to the consultation process, and the chamber has heard nothing from the Executive today that will reassure local groups and businesses that they can plan for a secure future. Relying on the working families tax credit for the sustainability of out-of-school care seems to me to be in the same vein as the discredited voucher scheme of the Conservative party. It means that the carers have to have the money to spend first, and it therefore excludes many people from out-of-school care—people such as students. It does not allow services to have clear and assured funding that allows them to plan for the future, as is essential. Another point that is often raised by those actively involved in child care is the management of the service. A truly integrated statutory service would relieve the management burden on parent and volunteer committees. Meeting a national child care strategy through those people's free time is unacceptable. In conclusion, I again welcome the Scottish Executive's commitment to a child care strategy for Scotland. But the strategy as presented to us today leaves much to be desired in meeting the needs of all children in a flexible and fully funded manner. The minister told us that it has taken two and a half years to get here. Today's debate tells us that there is still a lot of work to be done.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Galbraith is shaking his head, but in the introduction to the consultative document that was issued last year, \"Meeting the Childcare Challenge: A Childcare Strategy for Scotland\", Donald Dewar said:

\"In our election manifesto we undertook to produce a childcare strategy for Scotland which would ‘match the requirements of a modern labour market'\".

In the same introduction, Tony Blair declares that he wants

\"to encourage more family friendly employment\".

For me, those are not words that inspire a vision of a child care strategy. Mr Galbraith's opening remarks gave no indication of a Government that was prepared to learn or to move on. He dismissed the SNP's amendment because it includes the dread word funding, but today that issue has been raised repeatedly by members of all parties and the minister has signally failed to deal with it.

The SNP has long been committed to nursery places for all three and four-year-olds whose parents want them. However, we have taken a holistic, child-centred approach with our plans for children's centres. A child care strategy must provide an integrated service that caters for all the child's needs.

We must give all children a suitable and stable environment that gives them, and their parents or carers, access to all the services that they need in one place, with no shuttling between breakfast club, pre-school care, childminder, play scheme and health visitor. Children need a centred approach to life; they do not need to be on a conveyor belt.

The minister mentioned sure start Scotland and how it will apply to children up to the age of three. It will bring services to the child. As part of the vision, it would be nice if that could be broadened out to include all our children.

Children's centres would be one-stop shops for child care and could be managed as such, ensuring that all aspects of a child's life were in balance, and that the funding could be assured and long-term. One of the SNP's main criticisms of the child care strategy as it is constructed at present is the precariousness of the funding. That is a big problem. Using lottery funding to fund child care is not a sign of commitment. Using one-year lottery funding is putting many providers in jeopardy. There was almost universal condemnation of that funding mechanism in the submissions to the consultation process, and the chamber has heard nothing from the Executive today that will reassure local groups and businesses that they can plan for a secure future.

Relying on the working families tax credit for the sustainability of out-of-school care seems to me to be in the same vein as the discredited voucher scheme of the Conservative party. It means that the carers have to have the money to spend first, and it therefore excludes many people from out-of-school care—people such as students. It does not allow services to have clear and assured funding that allows them to plan for the future, as is essential.

Another point that is often raised by those actively involved in child care is the management of the service. A truly integrated statutory service would relieve the management burden on parent and volunteer committees. Meeting a national child care strategy through those people's free time is unacceptable.

In conclusion, I again welcome the Scottish Executive's commitment to a child care strategy for Scotland. But the strategy as presented to us today leaves much to be desired in meeting the needs of all children in a flexible and fully funded manner. The minister told us that it has taken two and a half years to get here. Today's debate tells us that there is still a lot of work to be done.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5295195+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2167E79P155C711676", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Nov 1999", "ID": 4191 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Child Care Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27065, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27065, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Peacock, Peter", "ID": 2167, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Peter Peacock", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Children and Education (Peter Peacock): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 119.0, "ContributionID": 711676, "EditedText": "We have had a good, wide-ranging debate, with many useful comments from members of all the political parties. I am encouraged by the broad support for the Executive's efforts from all parts of the chamber. We will take away some of the points that have been made so that we can consider them further. This is an on-going debate. We are in the midst of a major expansion of provision in Scotland, from which we will all learn as time goes on. I will respond to other points in a moment. Before I move on, I want to put things in context. Our policy is clearly designed to impact in several ways. It is designed to give children the best possible start in life; good child care services, delivered in time, will bring benefits for health, support families that are under stress and help to support better parenting. It will help to give greater structure to children's learning and will support work and training opportunities—which would otherwise not exist—for adults. It will promote a more inclusive society. When Sam Galbraith spoke earlier, he set out the range of efforts that we are making in child care and related services. Local child care partnerships are now established in every part of Scotland and make a major contribution to the planning and integration of services. Massive extra funding is becoming available—directly from the Executive—through the new opportunities fund and the working families tax credit. Today, Sam Galbraith announced almost £14 million of new money for local authorities for next year—that is an increase of almost 140 per cent on current funding. We have guaranteed a pre-school place for every four-year-old; we are building up the provision for every three-year-old; and, under sure start Scotland, we have committed substantial sums of money to extend services that support families with very young children. We will shortly launch a national child care information line that will be linked to local child care services in every area of Scotland. We have mapped out the options for an improved system of child care regulation and we are introducing initiatives to improve training qualifications. That issue has been raised by a number of members, and I will return to it in a moment. In all that, we have tried to act in an open and consultative way and in partnership with many parts of the public, private and voluntary sectors. We include the Parliament in that partnership and today's debate will contribute to our thinking and to the development of policy. In the same way that the full Scottish Grand Committee of the House of Commons debated last year's initial green paper on the topic, we want to continue to interact with the Parliament. It is evident that many MSPs have much to contribute and want to bring their experience to bear; many are trying to make child care arrangements while they are in the Parliament. Moreover, we have heard about the difficulties that the Parliament's staff face in finding secure child care facilities. Some MSPs have also worked in child care services and at least one MSP was the chairman of a local child care partnership. I will pick up some of the points that have been raised in the debate. First, we had the comparatively rare event of Nicola Sturgeon giving credit where credit is due. In some respects, her comments were very generous; I welcome her welcome for the working families tax credit and for our approach to child care training and qualifications. Although she said this afternoon that the issue should not become a political battleground, that does not square with an article in The Herald in which she tried to make a number of political points in advance of the debate. However, we share the view that she expressed this afternoon. A great deal unites the parties on the issue. Nicola Sturgeon raised some important questions and I will pin down completely the issue of money. We are in this business for the long run; we are not building up expenditure in order to cut it later. That principle is part of the very fabric of the Administration's programme to tackle social exclusion, to build more confident communities and to increase young people's life chances from their earliest years to the end of their lives. The existing child care funding is part of the grant-aided expenditure settlement, which provides the mainstream funding for local authorities. The working families tax credit will continue to provide resources to fund services over time and to make them more viable than before. The funding for the major expansion of pre-school provision will become part of mainstream funding within the GAE system. It was implied that, when the money became available, some local authorities would use it for another purpose, but there is no evidence to support that. Local authorities across Scotland are just as deeply committed as the Executive to expanding the range of services. In fact, funding in the local authority sector is never—or only exceptionally— ring-fenced for a particular purpose and local authorities continue to give education the highest priority.", "EditedTextHTML": "We have had a good, wide-ranging debate, with many useful comments from members of all the political parties. I am encouraged by the broad support for the Executive's efforts from all parts of the chamber.

We will take away some of the points that have been made so that we can consider them further. This is an on-going debate. We are in the midst of a major expansion of provision in Scotland, from which we will all learn as time goes on. I will respond to other points in a moment.

Before I move on, I want to put things in context. Our policy is clearly designed to impact in several ways. It is designed to give children the best possible start in life; good child care services, delivered in time, will bring benefits for health,

support families that are under stress and help to support better parenting. It will help to give greater structure to children's learning and will support work and training opportunities—which would otherwise not exist—for adults. It will promote a more inclusive society.

When Sam Galbraith spoke earlier, he set out the range of efforts that we are making in child care and related services. Local child care partnerships are now established in every part of Scotland and make a major contribution to the planning and integration of services. Massive extra funding is becoming available—directly from the Executive—through the new opportunities fund and the working families tax credit. Today, Sam Galbraith announced almost £14 million of new money for local authorities for next year—that is an increase of almost 140 per cent on current funding.

We have guaranteed a pre-school place for every four-year-old; we are building up the provision for every three-year-old; and, under sure start Scotland, we have committed substantial sums of money to extend services that support families with very young children. We will shortly launch a national child care information line that will be linked to local child care services in every area of Scotland.

We have mapped out the options for an improved system of child care regulation and we are introducing initiatives to improve training qualifications. That issue has been raised by a number of members, and I will return to it in a moment.

In all that, we have tried to act in an open and consultative way and in partnership with many parts of the public, private and voluntary sectors. We include the Parliament in that partnership and today's debate will contribute to our thinking and to the development of policy.

In the same way that the full Scottish Grand Committee of the House of Commons debated last year's initial green paper on the topic, we want to continue to interact with the Parliament. It is evident that many MSPs have much to contribute and want to bring their experience to bear; many are trying to make child care arrangements while they are in the Parliament. Moreover, we have heard about the difficulties that the Parliament's staff face in finding secure child care facilities. Some MSPs have also worked in child care services and at least one MSP was the chairman of a local child care partnership.

I will pick up some of the points that have been raised in the debate. First, we had the comparatively rare event of Nicola Sturgeon giving credit where credit is due. In some respects, her comments were very generous; I welcome her welcome for the working families tax credit and for our approach to child care training and qualifications. Although she said this afternoon that the issue should not become a political battleground, that does not square with an article in The Herald in which she tried to make a number of political points in advance of the debate. However, we share the view that she expressed this afternoon. A great deal unites the parties on the issue.

Nicola Sturgeon raised some important questions and I will pin down completely the issue of money. We are in this business for the long run; we are not building up expenditure in order to cut it later. That principle is part of the very fabric of the Administration's programme to tackle social exclusion, to build more confident communities and to increase young people's life chances from their earliest years to the end of their lives.

The existing child care funding is part of the grant-aided expenditure settlement, which provides the mainstream funding for local authorities. The working families tax credit will continue to provide resources to fund services over time and to make them more viable than before. The funding for the major expansion of pre-school provision will become part of mainstream funding within the GAE system. It was implied that, when the money became available, some local authorities would use it for another purpose, but there is no evidence to support that. Local authorities across Scotland are just as deeply committed as the Executive to expanding the range of services. In fact, funding in the local authority sector is never—or only exceptionally— ring-fenced for a particular purpose and local authorities continue to give education the highest priority.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5295195+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2167E79P155C711680", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Nov 1999", "ID": 4191 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Child Care Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27065, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27065, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Peacock, Peter", "ID": 2167, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Peter Peacock", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Peter Peacock: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 127.0, "ContributionID": 711680, "EditedText": "If Fiona does not mind, I will press on. Many members raised points in the debate and I want to respond to them. We have to keep our approach flexible. We need a mixed economy of provision that will still develop services that individual parents want for their individual children. Brian Monteith was very bold to raise the question of vouchers. His only claim for that policy was that it caused a debate in Scotland. Well, he is right—it certainly caused a debate, but it did not do much else. In particular, it did nothing to achieve universal provision and the guarantee of a place for young people. That is what we are doing and we are doing it in a systematic, proper way. Brian also raised the important question of choice. We are committed to having a mixed economy of provision and want a choice of services in the marketplace. That is not to say that parents will not exercise their choice; there is a clear indication that parents who are given the opportunity to do so—even before the services have been provided—will choose the local authority provision over other provision. The Accounts Commission is examining how local authorities are commissioning places and that will be reviewed in due course, but I repeat that we want to see choice in the marketplace. Brian and others—I think Mary Scanlon, Ian Jenkins and Irene McGugan—also mentioned deferred entry. When a decision is made to defer a child's entry into primary school, it ought to be made on the basis of the interests of the particular child; it should not become part of a fashion in education, which people universally opt for. If the decision is made, the flexibility exists in the current funding arrangements, as does the money, for that place to be funded out of local authority resources. Parents are free to make that choice and local authorities provide for it—they are welcome to continue. There is no requirement to change the rules or regulations that apply at present. Jamie Stone raised a number of points. He drew particular attention to the importance of child care as one way to introduce people back into work. As Malcolm Chisholm quite properly indicated, it is not just about the economic instrument; it helps women back into work in a way that has never before been possible and it helps to secure their family life. Mary Mulligan asked about special educational needs and parents' ability to access information about their child's special needs. I remind Mary that there is a helpline for such parents and that the developing information services also provide an opportunity to ask such questions on child care. Mary Scanlon mentioned the need to identify special educational needs and Colin Campbell also referred to the fact that the earlier a diagnosis is made of dyslexia—or another condition that would affect a child's learning in the future—the better. We fully agree with that; it is part of the process of building services so that earlier interventions can take place and we can benefit children more positively over time. Irene McGugan talked about the planning framework, which is complex at present. That was a good point and I agree with it. We will continue to examine that and we will review it with a view to simplifying the framework in time. Malcolm Chisholm made a point about the difficulty that some students face in securing child care, because of funding arrangements. We recognise the importance of that. Only a couple of weeks ago, Jack McConnell announced some £14 million of access funds to assist with that. We are conducting a survey with our colleagues south of the border to review the position and we are monitoring uptake. Sandra White raised the question of top-slicing. That is an important matter and I want to keep it under review. I am quite prepared to speak to the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities about existing practices to see whether we can improve on them. My understanding is that such funds should be used to support voluntary and private provision. We have to ensure that that is happening. Another point was made about cross-border placements, where parents can secure placements in other parts of their area. Sandra raised a point about the region that she represents and I would be happy if she wrote to me about the particular difficulties. In general, it is not difficult for local authorities to secure provision in other places. Members have made many other points, not least of which was Scott Barrie's admission that he was one of the first children in Scotland to receive nursery education. What better advertisement could there be? MEMBERS: \"Hear, hear.\" He also made the important point that child care provision must impact on those in our community who are most vulnerable, the children with the greatest needs. That is central to what we are trying to achieve. Scott mentioned the need to debate that further. In due course, we hope to have a debate in the chamber about looked-after children. Brian Adam and many others talked about qualifications, which are very important for the sector. Our intention is that everyone who works in the sector will be either qualified or working towards a qualification. The new Scottish vocational qualifications will help with that. We are mapping out provision and we will supply information that will allow people to make choices within that provision. Improvement of training and qualifications is important, partly because it impacts on the issues that have been raised by other members about wage levels, security of employment and the respect accorded to employment in the sector. Those matters are inextricably linked. We want progress and are happy to listen to a wide range of views. The Administration has not been afraid to put its efforts and resources into developing child care and early education. We have already come a long way, but—as has been mentioned today— there is much more to do. We will put more money and effort into achieving our aims. This year we are more than doubling the resources that will go to local authorities for development of the child care strategy. We will progress work on reforming the child care and early education regulations and we expect to have a debate on that in Parliament. We have worked to produce an information booklet that sets out the existing qualifications in early education and child care. That is the first step towards tackling a complex problem. The journey towards realisation of our child care vision will be long—we are off to a good start, but we intend to see the journey to its end. I commend our strategy to the Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "If Fiona does not mind, I will press on. Many members raised points in the debate and I want to respond to them.

We have to keep our approach flexible. We need a mixed economy of provision that will still develop services that individual parents want for their individual children.

Brian Monteith was very bold to raise the question of vouchers. His only claim for that policy was that it caused a debate in Scotland. Well, he is right—it certainly caused a debate, but it did not do much else. In particular, it did nothing to achieve universal provision and the guarantee of a place for young people. That is what we are doing and we are doing it in a systematic, proper way.

Brian also raised the important question of choice. We are committed to having a mixed economy of provision and want a choice of services in the marketplace. That is not to say that parents will not exercise their choice; there is a clear indication that parents who are given the opportunity to do so—even before the services have been provided—will choose the local authority provision over other provision. The Accounts Commission is examining how local authorities are commissioning places and that will be reviewed in due course, but I repeat that we want to see choice in the marketplace.

Brian and others—I think Mary Scanlon, Ian Jenkins and Irene McGugan—also mentioned deferred entry. When a decision is made to defer a child's entry into primary school, it ought to be made on the basis of the interests of the particular child; it should not become part of a fashion in education, which people universally opt for. If the decision is made, the flexibility exists in the current funding arrangements, as does the money, for that place to be funded out of local authority resources. Parents are free to make that choice and local authorities provide for it—they are welcome to continue. There is no requirement to change the rules or regulations that apply at present.

Jamie Stone raised a number of points. He drew particular attention to the importance of child care as one way to introduce people back into work. As Malcolm Chisholm quite properly indicated, it is not just about the economic instrument; it helps women back into work in a way that has never before been possible and it helps to secure their family life.

Mary Mulligan asked about special educational needs and parents' ability to access information about their child's special needs. I remind Mary that there is a helpline for such parents and that the developing information services also provide an opportunity to ask such questions on child care.

Mary Scanlon mentioned the need to identify special educational needs and Colin Campbell also referred to the fact that the earlier a diagnosis is made of dyslexia—or another condition that would affect a child's learning in the future—the better. We fully agree with that; it is part of the process of building services so that earlier interventions can take place and we can benefit children more positively over time.

Irene McGugan talked about the planning framework, which is complex at present. That was a good point and I agree with it. We will continue to examine that and we will review it with a view to simplifying the framework in time.

Malcolm Chisholm made a point about the difficulty that some students face in securing child care, because of funding arrangements. We recognise the importance of that. Only a couple of weeks ago, Jack McConnell announced some £14 million of access funds to assist with that. We are conducting a survey with our colleagues south of the border to review the position and we are monitoring uptake.

Sandra White raised the question of top-slicing. That is an important matter and I want to keep it under review. I am quite prepared to speak to the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities about existing practices to see whether we can improve on them. My understanding is that such funds should be used to support voluntary and private provision. We have to ensure that that is happening.

Another point was made about cross-border placements, where parents can secure placements in other parts of their area. Sandra raised a point about the region that she represents and I would be happy if she wrote to me about the particular difficulties. In general, it is not difficult for local authorities to secure provision in other places.

Members have made many other points, not least of which was Scott Barrie's admission that he was one of the first children in Scotland to receive nursery education. What better advertisement could there be? [MEMBERS: \"Hear, hear.\"] He also made the important point that child care provision must impact on those in our community who are most vulnerable, the children with the greatest needs. That is central to what we are trying to achieve. Scott mentioned the need to debate that further. In due course, we hope to have a debate in the chamber about looked-after children.

Brian Adam and many others talked about qualifications, which are very important for the sector. Our intention is that everyone who works in the sector will be either qualified or working towards a qualification. The new Scottish vocational qualifications will help with that. We are mapping out provision and we will supply information that will allow people to make choices within that provision. Improvement of training and qualifications is important, partly because it impacts on the issues that have been raised by other members about wage levels, security of employment and the respect accorded to employment in the sector. Those matters are inextricably linked. We want progress and are happy to listen to a wide range of views.

The Administration has not been afraid to put its efforts and resources into developing child care and early education. We have already come a long way, but—as has been mentioned today— there is much more to do. We will put more money and effort into achieving our aims. This year we are more than doubling the resources that will go to local authorities for development of the child care strategy. We will progress work on reforming the child care and early education regulations and we expect to have a debate on that in Parliament.

We have worked to produce an information booklet that sets out the existing qualifications in early education and child care. That is the first step towards tackling a complex problem. The journey towards realisation of our child care vision will be long—we are off to a good start, but we intend to see the journey to its end. I commend our strategy to the Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5295195+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711684", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Nov 1999", "ID": 4191 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27066, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 131.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 131.0, "ID": 27066, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 137.0, "ContributionID": 711684, "EditedText": "There will be a division.", "EditedTextHTML": "There will be a division.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5295195+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C711695", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Nov 1999", "ID": 4191 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Proof-of-age Cards (Ayrshire)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27067, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 147.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 147.0, "ID": 27067, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Patricia Ferguson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 155.0, "ContributionID": 711695, "EditedText": "Several members want to speak in this debate. If members keep their speeches to roughly three minutes, we will be able to accommodate everyone.", "EditedTextHTML": "Several members want to speak in this debate. If members keep their speeches to roughly three minutes, we will be able to accommodate everyone.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5295195+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1892E34P73C711699", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Nov 1999", "ID": 4191 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Proof-of-age Cards (Ayrshire)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27067, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 147.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 147.0, "ID": 27067, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Fergusson, Alex", "ID": 1892, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Fergusson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Fergusson (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 166.0, "ContributionID": 711699, "EditedText": "I am aware that this will not find favour with my friend Mr Gallie, but I confess that as a rule I am not in favour of identity cards. I am torn between the view that people with nothing to hide have nothing to fear and the opposite view—I wish Phil Gallie would stop looking at me—that identity cards are one step too far down the route to Big Brother is watching you. However, Phil has at least three and a half years in the life of this Parliament and I hope at least four years after that to persuade me otherwise. He will perhaps approve of the start I have made because I believe that proof-of-age cards have a significant role to play. I particularly welcome the shift of legal responsibility from the licence holder to the purchaser of alcohol. I speak as a former licence holder. From 1982 to 1986, I was part owner of the finest restaurant that Girvan in South Ayrshire could boast. I say that without fear of contradiction because it was the only restaurant that Girvan could boast. It is still there. As, I hope, a law- abiding citizen, the hardest part of that job was ascertaining the age of customers buying drink. It was hard enough 15 years ago—the older I get, the harder it is to tell. That the legal burden of selling alcohol to those too young to buy it falls on the licence holder is an understandable grudge of the licensed trade. The present legislation is unjust. It is akin to blaming the victim of a burglary rather than the burglar; blaming the fire rather than the arsonist; the corpse rather than the murderer. If that is over-dramatic, I am sure everyone agrees that there is far too large a grey area at the moment—far too high a level of injustice. I support South Ayrshire Council and commend it for introducing proof-of-age cards because they remove the grey areas and place the burden of proof firmly on the young person buying alcohol. I have no doubt that, where they are introduced, such schemes allow licensees to breathe a collective sigh of relief and allow law-abiding citizens to uphold the law with certainty.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am aware that this will not find favour with my friend Mr Gallie, but I confess that as a rule I am not in favour of identity cards.

I am torn between the view that people with nothing to hide have nothing to fear and the opposite view—I wish Phil Gallie would stop looking at me—that identity cards are one step too far down the route to Big Brother is watching you. However, Phil has at least three and a half years in the life of this Parliament and I hope at least four years after that to persuade me otherwise. He will perhaps approve of the start I have made because I believe that proof-of-age cards have a significant role to play.

I particularly welcome the shift of legal responsibility from the licence holder to the purchaser of alcohol. I speak as a former licence holder. From 1982 to 1986, I was part owner of the finest restaurant that Girvan in South Ayrshire could boast. I say that without fear of contradiction because it was the only restaurant that Girvan could boast. It is still there. As, I hope, a law- abiding citizen, the hardest part of that job was ascertaining the age of customers buying drink. It was hard enough 15 years ago—the older I get, the harder it is to tell.

That the legal burden of selling alcohol to those too young to buy it falls on the licence holder is an understandable grudge of the licensed trade. The present legislation is unjust. It is akin to blaming the victim of a burglary rather than the burglar; blaming the fire rather than the arsonist; the corpse rather than the murderer. If that is over-dramatic, I am sure everyone agrees that there is far too large a grey area at the moment—far too high a level of injustice.

I support South Ayrshire Council and commend it for introducing proof-of-age cards because they remove the grey areas and place the burden of proof firmly on the young person buying alcohol. I have no doubt that, where they are introduced, such schemes allow licensees to breathe a collective sigh of relief and allow law-abiding citizens to uphold the law with certainty.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C711703", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Nov 1999", "ID": 4191 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Proof-of-age Cards (Ayrshire)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27067, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 147.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 147.0, "ID": 27067, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 177.0, "ContributionID": 711703, "EditedText": "Thank you. I now close this meeting of the Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you. I now close this meeting of the Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711704", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Nov 1999", "ID": 4191 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Proof-of-age Cards (Ayrshire)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27067, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 147.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 147.0, "ID": 27067, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 179.0, "ContributionID": 711704, "EditedText": "Meeting closed at 17:31.", "EditedTextHTML": "Meeting closed at 17:31.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711629", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Nov 1999", "ID": 4191 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Wednesday 17 November 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 27063, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 27063, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 2.0, "ContributionID": 711629, "EditedText": "THE DEPUTY PRESIDING OFFICER opened the meeting at 14:30", "EditedTextHTML": "[THE DEPUTY PRESIDING OFFICER opened the meeting at 14:30]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.513892+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C711635", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Nov 1999", "ID": 4191 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Child Care Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27065, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27065, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Brian Monteith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 17.0, "ContributionID": 711635, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5295195+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C711643", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Nov 1999", "ID": 4191 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Child Care Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27065, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27065, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Monteith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 34.0, "ContributionID": 711643, "EditedText": "No. The Conservatives do not believe in universal provision of free education for three and four-year-olds. However, we recognise that there must be some state provision. Our manifesto included a policy that recognised that the current system provided only for part-time care and that the expansion of provision to three and four-year-olds would still provide only part-time care. We therefore advocated the use of vouchers to provide a minimum—to ensure provision for every child—that could be topped up. Parents could decide to split the voucher to provide part- time care for three or four years or to use it for full- time education for their four-year-old. That shows that we want to work with the grain of parental need, which is particularly important when discussing the child care strategy. Labour claims that its child care policies improve choice and access for parents. Although we may get there in the end, that is not necessarily the case yet. When we introduced nursery vouchers, 80 per cent of children went into local authority provision. Since the vouchers were abolished, that figure has risen to 86.2 per cent. It is evident from many of our constituencies that private and voluntary provision is being crowded out. There are a number of reasons for that, and it is important that we take due regard of them when applying the strategy. When, for example, local authorities decided to provide nursery care, often adjacent to existing playgroups, many parents decided to take their children out of playgroups and put them into the nurseries, because they saw the nurseries as a route into the schools that they wanted their children to attend. It was not the teaching, the play or the care that mattered to them, but the fact that the nurseries offered them a way of getting their child into a particular school. The Executive should take note of that. It is also important that we pay regard to the education white paper cum bill, which proposes to make nursery provision a statutory duty. I have some concerns about that, because the funding is not ring-fenced. Some local authorities, by top- slicing for an administration charge, are already making it difficult for parents to choose private or voluntary care. In East Dunbartonshire, for example, the local authority imposes an administration charge on voluntary or private nurseries of some £268. In Falkirk, the charge is £295. In Highland, it is £245 for the voluntary sector and £105 for the private sector. In North Lanarkshire, it is £240. Western Isles Council charges £35. Local authorities impose those charges, but private nurseries often pass them on to parents—for whom they represent, in effect, an extra charge. I am worried that, because the white paper imposes a statutory duty on local authorities, they may decide to change the pricing structure further and to enter into partnership agreements that make it impossible for private sector nursery provision to co-exist with local authority provision. Because there will be no ring-fenced protection, the private nurseries may be forced out of the sector; there will be not so much a partnership as two classes of provision. That does not accord with what I have heard the minister and many members of the Scottish Executive say in the past—that they want partnership, rather than a divided, isolated society. It is important that we give some consideration to the sort of care that is provided. Teaching is not always appropriate; child care should be more about play and interaction through which children can develop social skills. We should be encouraging flexibility of choice, rather than monolithic provision by local authorities. It is also important that we are assured that, if the private and voluntary sectors use new opportunities fund money, they will not face funding problems two or three years down the line. Children in Scotland has said: \"Out-of-school care and study-support schemes are being promoted through ‘pump-priming' funds from the National Lottery. The grants, however, are only for one- year after which projects are expected to sustain themselves—which is likely to be unrealistic.\" I recognise that the minister has made an announcement on this, but we need greater assurances before we can be relaxed—or complacent, to use Nicola Sturgeon's word—about groups surviving beyond the initial period.", "EditedTextHTML": "No. The Conservatives do not believe in universal provision of free education for three and four-year-olds. However, we recognise that there must be some state provision. Our manifesto included a policy that recognised that the current system provided only for part-time care and that the expansion of provision to three and four-year-olds would still provide only part-time care. We therefore advocated the use of vouchers to provide a minimum—to ensure provision for every child—that could be topped up. Parents could decide to split the voucher to provide part- time care for three or four years or to use it for full- time education for their four-year-old. That shows that we want to work with the grain of parental need, which is particularly important when discussing the child care strategy.

Labour claims that its child care policies improve choice and access for parents. Although we may get there in the end, that is not necessarily the case yet. When we introduced nursery vouchers, 80 per cent of children went into local authority provision. Since the vouchers were abolished, that figure has risen to 86.2 per cent. It is evident from many of our constituencies that private and voluntary provision is being crowded out. There are a number of reasons for that, and it is important that we take due regard of them when applying the strategy.

When, for example, local authorities decided to provide nursery care, often adjacent to existing playgroups, many parents decided to take their children out of playgroups and put them into the nurseries, because they saw the nurseries as a route into the schools that they wanted their children to attend. It was not the teaching, the play or the care that mattered to them, but the fact that the nurseries offered them a way of getting their child into a particular school. The Executive should take note of that.

It is also important that we pay regard to the education white paper cum bill, which proposes to make nursery provision a statutory duty. I have some concerns about that, because the funding is not ring-fenced. Some local authorities, by top- slicing for an administration charge, are already making it difficult for parents to choose private or voluntary care. In East Dunbartonshire, for example, the local authority imposes an administration charge on voluntary or private nurseries of some £268. In Falkirk, the charge is £295. In Highland, it is £245 for the voluntary sector and £105 for the private sector. In North Lanarkshire, it is £240. Western Isles Council charges £35. Local authorities impose those charges, but private nurseries often pass them on to parents—for whom they represent, in effect, an extra charge.

I am worried that, because the white paper imposes a statutory duty on local authorities, they may decide to change the pricing structure further and to enter into partnership agreements that make it impossible for private sector nursery provision to co-exist with local authority provision. Because there will be no ring-fenced protection, the private nurseries may be forced out of the sector; there will be not so much a partnership as two classes of provision. That does not accord with what I have heard the minister and many members of the Scottish Executive say in the past—that they want partnership, rather than a divided, isolated society.

It is important that we give some consideration to the sort of care that is provided. Teaching is not always appropriate; child care should be more about play and interaction through which children can develop social skills. We should be encouraging flexibility of choice, rather than monolithic provision by local authorities.

It is also important that we are assured that, if the private and voluntary sectors use new opportunities fund money, they will not face funding problems two or three years down the line. Children in Scotland has said:

\"Out-of-school care and study-support schemes are being promoted through ‘pump-priming' funds from the National Lottery. The grants, however, are only for one- year after which projects are expected to sustain themselves—which is likely to be unrealistic.\"

I recognise that the minister has made an announcement on this, but we need greater assurances before we can be relaxed—or complacent, to use Nicola Sturgeon's word—about groups surviving beyond the initial period.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5295195+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2123E103P242C711646", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Nov 1999", "ID": 4191 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Child Care Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27065, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27065, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Chisholm, Malcolm", "ID": 2123, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh North and Leith" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Malcolm Chisholm", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Malcolm Chisholm: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 40.0, "ContributionID": 711646, "EditedText": "Given that after-school clubs will be supported mainly by the child care tax credit element of the working families tax credit, how will the Conservatives' policy of abolishing that help to sustain them?", "EditedTextHTML": "Given that after-school clubs will be supported mainly by the child care tax credit element of the working families tax credit, how will the Conservatives' policy of abolishing that help to sustain them?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5295195+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C711647", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Nov 1999", "ID": 4191 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Child Care Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27065, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27065, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Monteith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 42.0, "ContributionID": 711647, "EditedText": "As is quite clear, we intend to ensure that funding is made available for such clubs. We do not intend to introduce a system that brings in more means testing and divides society. We want, by providing state funding directly, a society that is united. The Executive's commitments include a new national child care information line. When the minister winds up, I hope to hear more news on the way in which better information will be provided. The Administration intends to provide a new regulatory body by 2001. However, at the same time, it says that it will train 5,000 new child care workers by 2002. When those new workers come on stream, will they be within the bounds of the new regulatory body, which will only just have been created? In a briefing paper, Children in Scotland has said that \"barriers exist to the involvement of employers, Local Enterprise Companies, direct service providers in the voluntary and private sectors, and children.\" Will any such barriers be removed?Out-of-school care and study support schemes will have funding from the new opportunities fund. I mention that again because I want to hear from the minister whether that funding will continue. I also want to hear what the Executive intends to do for children at nursery school who have just reached the age when they should go to primary school but are considered by their parents to be too young to do so. The children may suffer educationally by going on to primary school. It would cost in the region of £2.5 million to ensure that they can stay on at nursery. Will the minister give a commitment—as my party did in its manifesto for the Scottish election—to make funding available to ensure that those children can stay on in local authority or private nurseries? Some local authorities already cover such costs, but they are not covered nationally. If we had answers to those questions, and if we were assured that there would be flexibility, variety, choice and quality, together with the affordability that the minister talked about, we would all welcome the strategy—it would be one that all Scots could be proud of, and it would certainly have the support of the Conservative party.", "EditedTextHTML": "As is quite clear, we intend to ensure that funding is made available for such clubs. We do not intend to introduce a system that brings in more means testing and divides society. We want, by providing state funding directly, a society that is united.

The Executive's commitments include a new national child care information line. When the minister winds up, I hope to hear more news on the way in which better information will be provided.

The Administration intends to provide a new regulatory body by 2001. However, at the same time, it says that it will train 5,000 new child care workers by 2002. When those new workers come on stream, will they be within the bounds of the new regulatory body, which will only just have been created?

In a briefing paper, Children in Scotland has said that

\"barriers exist to the involvement of employers, Local Enterprise Companies, direct service providers in the voluntary and private sectors, and children.\"

Will any such barriers be removed?

Out-of-school care and study support schemes will have funding from the new opportunities fund. I mention that again because I want to hear from the minister whether that funding will continue. I also want to hear what the Executive intends to do for children at nursery school who have just reached the age when they should go to primary school but are considered by their parents to be too young to do so. The children may suffer educationally by going on to primary school. It would cost in the region of £2.5 million to ensure that they can stay on at nursery. Will the minister give a commitment—as my party did in its manifesto for the Scottish election—to make funding available to ensure that those children can stay on in local authority or private nurseries? Some local authorities already cover such costs, but they are not covered nationally.

If we had answers to those questions, and if we were assured that there would be flexibility, variety, choice and quality, together with the affordability that the minister talked about, we would all welcome the strategy—it would be one that all Scots could be proud of, and it would certainly have the support of the Conservative party.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5295195+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1926E190P479C711657", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Nov 1999", "ID": 4191 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Child Care Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27065, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27065, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Adam, Brian", "ID": 1926, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Adam", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Brian Adam (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 71.0, "ContributionID": 711657, "EditedText": "I will talk briefly about the qualifications of child care workers, and also about a more integrated approach that includes social inclusion partnerships as part of the rolling out of the programme. With regard to qualifications, I have some concerns that the ambitious target that the Executive has set itself of having 5,000 people trained within a short period of time is achievable, but I hope that we will actively encourage people to get those qualifications. I will relate some experiences that I had with the Middlefield community project in Aberdeen when I was a councillor, as it might give a flavour of what is possible, in terms of qualifications and how they can impact on the children, parents and residents in what is part of one of the new social inclusion partnerships. Seven years ago, there was no provision in the area at all and the community project set up a series of nurseries. Now there are four nurseries offering 46 places, which are largely part-time. They have nine members of staff, who all started out living in the community and without qualifications. Most of them have qualified, or are well on the way to qualifying, in child care. Indeed, one has moved on further, having gone to college to enhance her career prospects. None of that would have happened without the opportunity afforded through the Scottish vocational qualification route. Such a stepping stone is often important in allowing someone from a deprived area to get a start. The fact that that was available within the community was crucial. The standard of care provided is excellent. Because of the quality of nursery provision in the area, people from outwith the community are actively knocking on the door to have their children admitted to the nurseries. Naturally, there are constraints, which—as such things often do—relate to finance. We cannot, and we do not, expect people to be compelled to put their children into after-school clubs, nurseries or any other form of provision. That is one of the choices that parents have, and will continue to have. There are advantages to children staying at home, but not in terms of the development of social skills and the early identification of potential problems that, regrettably, are in certain respects more prevalent in some deprived areas. Perhaps today's welcome announcement that the funds will be concentrated in deprived areas will help. I plead with the minister to give active consideration to involving the social inclusion partnerships in the discussions about how and where we do that. It will offer opportunities to expand and provide services in communities and to take a holistic approach. This should not be done in isolation; it should be done in an inclusive way. However, from my discussions with the people providing these services, it is clear that a couple of potential problems need to be addressed. The Children (Scotland) Act 1995 and its implications have an impact on who can be employed. Those things have to be dealt with sensitively. There are issues relating to that that the minister might care to look at. My colleague Nicola Sturgeon was criticised for suggesting that a plethora of initiatives and ideas is being introduced. The six months arrangement for the new deal might also have an impact, in that it is difficult to undertake courses of study in only six months. Perhaps the more enlightened approach adopted by other public sector bodies— such as the Employment Service, which offers a year—would at least give people the chance to get on the first rung and, potentially, find sources of future funding for the post. I suggest that the minister consider the new deal in relation to that arrangement, particularly as we are trying to find the appropriate number of people to do it.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will talk briefly about the qualifications of child care workers, and also about a more integrated approach that includes social inclusion partnerships as part of the rolling out of the programme.

With regard to qualifications, I have some concerns that the ambitious target that the Executive has set itself of having 5,000 people trained within a short period of time is achievable, but I hope that we will actively encourage people to get those qualifications.

I will relate some experiences that I had with the Middlefield community project in Aberdeen when I was a councillor, as it might give a flavour of what is possible, in terms of qualifications and how they can impact on the children, parents and residents in what is part of one of the new social inclusion partnerships.

Seven years ago, there was no provision in the area at all and the community project set up a series of nurseries. Now there are four nurseries offering 46 places, which are largely part-time. They have nine members of staff, who all started out living in the community and without qualifications. Most of them have qualified, or are well on the way to qualifying, in child care. Indeed, one has moved on further, having gone to college to enhance her career prospects.

None of that would have happened without the opportunity afforded through the Scottish vocational qualification route. Such a stepping stone is often important in allowing someone from a deprived area to get a start. The fact that that was available within the community was crucial. The standard of care provided is excellent. Because of the quality of nursery provision in the area, people from outwith the community are actively knocking on the door to have their children admitted to the nurseries.

Naturally, there are constraints, which—as such things often do—relate to finance. We cannot, and we do not, expect people to be compelled to put their children into after-school clubs, nurseries or any other form of provision. That is one of the choices that parents have, and will continue to have. There are advantages to children staying at home, but not in terms of the development of social skills and the early identification of potential problems that, regrettably, are in certain respects more prevalent in some deprived areas. Perhaps today's welcome announcement that the funds will be concentrated in deprived areas will help.

I plead with the minister to give active consideration to involving the social inclusion partnerships in the discussions about how and where we do that. It will offer opportunities to expand and provide services in communities and to take a holistic approach. This should not be done in isolation; it should be done in an inclusive way.

However, from my discussions with the people providing these services, it is clear that a couple of potential problems need to be addressed. The Children (Scotland) Act 1995 and its implications have an impact on who can be employed. Those things have to be dealt with sensitively. There are issues relating to that that the minister might care to look at.

My colleague Nicola Sturgeon was criticised for suggesting that a plethora of initiatives and ideas is being introduced. The six months arrangement for the new deal might also have an impact, in that it is difficult to undertake courses of study in only six months. Perhaps the more enlightened approach adopted by other public sector bodies— such as the Employment Service, which offers a year—would at least give people the chance to get

on the first rung and, potentially, find sources of future funding for the post. I suggest that the minister consider the new deal in relation to that arrangement, particularly as we are trying to find the appropriate number of people to do it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5295195+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C711660", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Nov 1999", "ID": 4191 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Child Care Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27065, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27065, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Monteith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 79.0, "ContributionID": 711660, "EditedText": "I point out to Helen Eadie that, in the first year after the voucher scheme was introduced, 63,467 children attended some form of pre-school education. Only 3,025 parents did not apply for those vouchers. That figure of 63,467 is larger than the number of children currently attending any form of pre-school education. It is therefore clear that, although there may have been a lack of provision, the vouchers encouraged provision not just by local authorities but by private and voluntary groups. Is not that the case?", "EditedTextHTML": "I point out to Helen Eadie that, in the first year after the voucher scheme was introduced, 63,467 children attended some form of pre-school education. Only 3,025 parents did not apply for those vouchers. That figure of 63,467 is larger than the number of children currently attending any form of pre-school education. It is therefore clear that, although there may have been

a lack of provision, the vouchers encouraged provision not just by local authorities but by private and voluntary groups. Is not that the case?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5295195+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2188E70P92C711669", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Nov 1999", "ID": 4191 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Child Care Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27065, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27065, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harper, Robin", "ID": 2188, "PartyName": "Scottish Green Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Green", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robin Harper", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robin Harper (Lothians) (Green): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 100.0, "ContributionID": 711669, "EditedText": "I welcome the initiative, which I hope will address the concerns of people in the sector who have lobbied me. The concerns have mostly centred on the anomalies—particularly for private sector provision—in the way in which different authorities apply regulations. Although quality day care and pre-school education are attractive phrases, I am concerned that the meat in that sandwich should be child development. That is what this should be about. It is a little early to mention the word education in respect of children of this age. I would hate to see this development lead to schools starting to compete against each other in numeracy, literacy and the rest. This century has a wonderful history of development in the kindergarten—the child's garden—movement. People such as Froebel have developed ideas of space, music, balance, movement and the senses of sight and smell. I want to reinforce what Mary Mulligan, Brian Monteith, Elaine Smith, Scott Barrie and Donald Gorrie said. We are talking about young children. As Elaine rightly said, outdoor education follows right through nursery to primary and on to secondary education. In recent years we have seen a steady erosion of outdoor education provision in Scotland in every respect. From playing fields to play areas to outdoor education teachers, that provision has been eroded and it is about time that it was set in the opposite direction. I strongly support Elaine Smith's remarks. Our children need access to sand, mud, puddles of water and piles of leaves to kick about.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the initiative, which I hope will address the concerns of people in the sector who have lobbied me. The concerns have mostly centred on the anomalies—particularly for private sector provision—in the way in which different authorities apply regulations.

Although quality day care and pre-school education are attractive phrases, I am concerned that the meat in that sandwich should be child development. That is what this should be about. It is a little early to mention the word education in respect of children of this age. I would hate to see this development lead to schools starting to compete against each other in numeracy, literacy and the rest.

This century has a wonderful history of development in the kindergarten—the child's garden—movement. People such as Froebel have developed ideas of space, music, balance, movement and the senses of sight and smell. I want to reinforce what Mary Mulligan, Brian Monteith, Elaine Smith, Scott Barrie and Donald Gorrie said. We are talking about young children. As Elaine rightly said, outdoor education follows right through nursery to primary and on to secondary education.

In recent years we have seen a steady erosion of outdoor education provision in Scotland in every respect. From playing fields to play areas to outdoor education teachers, that provision has been eroded and it is about time that it was set in the opposite direction. I strongly support Elaine Smith's remarks. Our children need access to sand, mud, puddles of water and piles of leaves to kick about.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5295195+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2234E7P20C711673", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Nov 1999", "ID": 4191 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Child Care Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27065, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27065, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Aitken, Bill", "ID": 2234, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bill Aitken", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bill Aitken: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 111.0, "ContributionID": 711673, "EditedText": "Yes, it is. If Sam Galbraith checks his facts, he will discover that that is not a devolved power and that he depends on the good will of the Chancellor of the Exchequer for the continuation of that funding. If the Westminster Government's policy changes, we will be left with a deficit. Overall, we welcome what has been said today and recognise that progress has been made. For that reason, at the end of the day we will support the Executive on this issue. Nicola Sturgeon's amendment has merits, but it is nit-picking to some extent. There is very little here that she can get her teeth into, and we think that she is seeking merely to divide.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes, it is. If Sam Galbraith checks his facts, he will discover that that is not a devolved power and that he depends on the good will of the Chancellor of the Exchequer for the continuation of that funding. If the Westminster Government's policy changes, we will be left with a deficit.

Overall, we welcome what has been said today and recognise that progress has been made. For that reason, at the end of the day we will support the Executive on this issue. Nicola Sturgeon's amendment has merits, but it is nit-picking to some extent. There is very little here that she can get her teeth into, and we think that she is seeking merely to divide.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5295195+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1775E171P452C711674", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Nov 1999", "ID": 4191 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Child Care Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27065, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27065, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeod, Fiona", "ID": 1775, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona McLeod", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona McLeod (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 114.0, "ContributionID": 711674, "EditedText": "This afternoon I rise wearing hats, rather than anoraks, as in last week's debate. As the shadow deputy minister for children, I welcome the fact that the Executive is giving child care its proper place. It is central to the life of every child and every carer. However, wearing my other hats—as a former committee member of my local mother and toddlers group, as a past convener of Westerton pre-school and playgroup and, above all, as a parent—I must question how much this strategy is driven by the interests and needs of our children, and how much by the demands of the labour market and the Government's economies. Mr Galbraith indicated disagreement.", "EditedTextHTML": "This afternoon I rise wearing hats, rather than anoraks, as in last week's debate. As the shadow deputy minister for children, I welcome the fact that the Executive is giving child care its proper place. It is central to the life of every child and every carer. However, wearing my other hats—as a former committee member of my local mother and toddlers group, as a past convener of Westerton pre-school and playgroup and, above all, as a parent—I must question how much this strategy is driven by the interests and needs of our children, and how much by the demands of the labour market and the Government's economies.

Mr Galbraith indicated disagreement.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5295195+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2167E79P155C711678", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Nov 1999", "ID": 4191 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Child Care Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27065, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27065, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Peacock, Peter", "ID": 2167, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Peter Peacock", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Peter Peacock: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 123.0, "ContributionID": 711678, "EditedText": "I hope that Brian will not mind, but I have to press on. I have no reason to believe that the Executive or the local authorities will make any cuts in education. Nicola Sturgeon also raised the issue of integrating services and having one form—instead of the current variety—of provision. She also mentioned some parents' difficulties in securing wrap-around care. We do not intend to impede parents in their search for suitable services. However, we should recognise that different parents have different requirements at different stages of their lives. The system that is being developed allows parents to have a choice and to secure the services that suit their particular family circumstances. Those services should not be put in a straitjacket with one model privileged over others. Furthermore, if we moved to the system that Nicola suggested, there would be no indication of what would happen to the voluntary and private sectors, which play a major part in this area of provision by bringing in different kinds of expertise—", "EditedTextHTML": "I hope that Brian will not mind, but I have to press on.

I have no reason to believe that the Executive or the local authorities will make any cuts in education.

Nicola Sturgeon also raised the issue of integrating services and having one form—instead of the current variety—of provision. She also mentioned some parents' difficulties in securing wrap-around care. We do not intend to impede parents in their search for suitable services. However, we should recognise that different parents have different requirements at different stages of their lives. The system that is being developed allows parents to have a choice and to secure the services that suit their particular family circumstances. Those services should not be put in a straitjacket with one model privileged over others.

Furthermore, if we moved to the system that Nicola suggested, there would be no indication of what would happen to the voluntary and private sectors, which play a major part in this area of provision by bringing in different kinds of expertise—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5295195+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711685", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Nov 1999", "ID": 4191 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27066, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 131.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 131.0, "ID": 27066, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 139.0, "ContributionID": 711685, "EditedText": "FOR Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)AGAINST Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)(LD)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)

AGAINST

Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)
(LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5295195+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711688", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Nov 1999", "ID": 4191 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27066, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 131.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 131.0, "ID": 27066, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 143.0, "ContributionID": 711688, "EditedText": "The second question is, that motion S1M-285, in the name of Mr Sam Galbraith, be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "The second question is, that motion S1M-285, in the name of Mr Sam Galbraith, be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5295195+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711689", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Nov 1999", "ID": 4191 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27066, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 131.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 131.0, "ID": 27066, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 145.0, "ContributionID": 711689, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5295195+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711690", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Nov 1999", "ID": 4191 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27066, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 131.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 131.0, "ID": 27066, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 146.0, "ContributionID": 711690, "EditedText": "That the Parliament supports the Scottish Executive's commitment to its Childcare Strategy for Scotland and welcomes the substantially increased allocation of funding to local authorities in 2000-01 to develop the Childcare Strategy in their areas.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament supports the Scottish Executive's commitment to its Childcare Strategy for Scotland and welcomes the substantially increased allocation of funding to local authorities in 2000-01 to develop the Childcare Strategy in their areas.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5295195+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1752E75P296C711696", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Nov 1999", "ID": 4191 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Proof-of-age Cards (Ayrshire)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27067, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 147.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 147.0, "ID": 27067, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jamieson, Cathy", "ID": 1752, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Cathy Jamieson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Cathy Jamieson (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 158.0, "ContributionID": 711696, "EditedText": "I shall try to keep my contribution brief. I congratulate Phil Gallie on his warm words for South Ayrshire Council. I welcome the fact that he recognises the good work that a Labour-controlled council in South Ayrshire has been doing over the years. That good work will continue.It is important to recognise that the proof-of-age card scheme came about as a result of several other policies that have been adopted by the council, particularly on community consultation. The idea of introducing a scheme to tackle the problem of under-age drinking arose in consultation through community meetings; it came from young people themselves, who were consulted as part of that process. The significance of the scheme is that it is operated by the council. Other proof-of-age schemes exist, but they are run either by licensed trade associations or by individual companies. However, South Ayrshire Council has taken the view that it should be responsive and provide a service at no cost to young people. As Phil Gallie said, young people may want to prove their age to retailers to show that they are old enough to buy alcohol, to gain entry to discos or other entertainment facilities or to buy tobacco products. In other circumstances, younger children say that they want a proof-of-age scheme—for example, to be able to hire a video that is designated as suitable for somebody who is aged 12 or to be able to go the pictures to see a film that is suitable for 15-year-olds. It is to the council's credit that it is saying, \"We have made a start on this process, which we are going to continue to roll out in the future.\" Phil talked about the wider vision of getting other authorities to pick up on the scheme. East Ayrshire Council—part of whose area falls within my constituency, as does part of South Ayrshire Council's—has taken an interest in the scheme. With other MSPs, I will seek to pursue that, as—I am sure—will other Ayrshire authorities. It is not often that I have the opportunity to agree with Phil Gallie, but I thank him for securing this debate and for his warm words about South Ayrshire. I am sure that my comrades on the council will be delighted for him to have the headline in the Ayrshire Post for once.", "EditedTextHTML": "I shall try to keep my contribution brief.

I congratulate Phil Gallie on his warm words for South Ayrshire Council. I welcome the fact that he recognises the good work that a Labour-controlled council in South Ayrshire has been doing over the

years. That good work will continue.

It is important to recognise that the proof-of-age card scheme came about as a result of several other policies that have been adopted by the council, particularly on community consultation. The idea of introducing a scheme to tackle the problem of under-age drinking arose in consultation through community meetings; it came from young people themselves, who were consulted as part of that process.

The significance of the scheme is that it is operated by the council. Other proof-of-age schemes exist, but they are run either by licensed trade associations or by individual companies. However, South Ayrshire Council has taken the view that it should be responsive and provide a service at no cost to young people.

As Phil Gallie said, young people may want to prove their age to retailers to show that they are old enough to buy alcohol, to gain entry to discos or other entertainment facilities or to buy tobacco products. In other circumstances, younger children say that they want a proof-of-age scheme—for example, to be able to hire a video that is designated as suitable for somebody who is aged 12 or to be able to go the pictures to see a film that is suitable for 15-year-olds. It is to the council's credit that it is saying, \"We have made a start on this process, which we are going to continue to roll out in the future.\"

Phil talked about the wider vision of getting other authorities to pick up on the scheme. East Ayrshire Council—part of whose area falls within my constituency, as does part of South Ayrshire Council's—has taken an interest in the scheme. With other MSPs, I will seek to pursue that, as—I am sure—will other Ayrshire authorities.

It is not often that I have the opportunity to agree with Phil Gallie, but I thank him for securing this debate and for his warm words about South Ayrshire. I am sure that my comrades on the council will be delighted for him to have the headline in the Ayrshire Post for once.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5295195+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C711697", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Nov 1999", "ID": 4191 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Proof-of-age Cards (Ayrshire)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27067, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 147.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 147.0, "ID": 27067, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 160.0, "ContributionID": 711697, "EditedText": "Things have obviously changed in Ayr since my day.", "EditedTextHTML": "Things have obviously changed in Ayr since my day.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5295195+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2068E171P304C711698", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Nov 1999", "ID": 4191 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Proof-of-age Cards (Ayrshire)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27067, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 147.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 147.0, "ID": 27067, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stone, Jamie", "ID": 2068, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie Stone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 163.0, "ContributionID": 711698, "EditedText": "I, too, congratulate Phil Gallie on lodging this motion. Cathy Jamieson's comments are cogent, to say the least. It is a pity that some of our friends who sit to my left are not here today—the nats are absent. I can use the word nats, as Winnie Ewing is not here. The strength of what South Ayrshire Council is doing can be seen in relation to children going to dances, which Cathy Jamieson touched on. I have experienced such problems in the past. Our young ones get into these places and come out blootered because they were able to buy drink under-age— we know the old story. Unfortunately, I had occasion to gate one of my daughters the other day—unlike Mr Gallie, I am of an age to have teenage daughters. She turned round and said, \"You are a hypocrite, Dad. Didn't you do the same in your day?\" For the purposes of the Official Report, let us draw a discreet veil over that. That problem leaves the people who organise the dances in a difficult position. A proof-of-age scheme, implemented via the schools—exactly as Phil suggested—would be very effective. Some schools already use smart cards, for school dinners and so on, so the scheme could be tagged on to that. Let us not be too heavy on the kids. I remember that, a long time ago, a constituent came to me outraged that kids had come out of a dance and were rioting outside his front door. I was pretty green so I wrote to the chief constable. A sergeant later asked me to come up to the station to see the charge book, which showed that, in fact, my elderly constituent had come out of his door roaring drunk and shouting at the kids—it was he who had been lifted. We should go easy on the kids, therefore, but Phil Gallie's suggestion and what the council is doing would help hugely.", "EditedTextHTML": "I, too, congratulate Phil Gallie on lodging this motion. Cathy Jamieson's comments are cogent, to say the least. It is a pity that some of our friends who sit to my left are not here today—the nats are absent. I can use the word nats, as Winnie Ewing is not here.

The strength of what South Ayrshire Council is doing can be seen in relation to children going to dances, which Cathy Jamieson touched on. I have experienced such problems in the past. Our young ones get into these places and come out blootered because they were able to buy drink under-age— we know the old story. Unfortunately, I had occasion to gate one of my daughters the other day—unlike Mr Gallie, I am of an age to have teenage daughters. She turned round and said, \"You are a hypocrite, Dad. Didn't you do the same in your day?\" For the purposes of the Official Report, let us draw a discreet veil over that.

That problem leaves the people who organise the dances in a difficult position. A proof-of-age scheme, implemented via the schools—exactly as Phil suggested—would be very effective. Some schools already use smart cards, for school dinners and so on, so the scheme could be tagged on to that.

Let us not be too heavy on the kids. I remember that, a long time ago, a constituent came to me outraged that kids had come out of a dance and were rioting outside his front door. I was pretty green so I wrote to the chief constable. A sergeant later asked me to come up to the station to see the charge book, which showed that, in fact, my elderly constituent had come out of his door roaring drunk and shouting at the kids—it was he who had been lifted. We should go easy on the kids, therefore, but Phil Gallie's suggestion and what the council is doing would help hugely.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1768E72P274C711700", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Nov 1999", "ID": 4191 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Proof-of-age Cards (Ayrshire)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27067, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 147.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 147.0, "ID": 27067, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Murray, Elaine", "ID": 1768, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumfries" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Murray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Elaine Murray (Dumfries) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 169.0, "ContributionID": 711700, "EditedText": "I am a former member of South Ayrshire Council, but I am not speaking in that capacity. We thought long and hard about proof-of-age schemes during my time on the council. I make a plea from the heart. When I was 23, I was thrown out of a pub not because I was drunk and disorderly—for a change—but because the proprietor would not believe I was over 18. Despite my former husband and my colleagues telling him otherwise he would not believe me. Later on I took the precaution of marrying a 6 ft tall 14 stone ex- rugby player but unfortunately our three children all inherited my height deficiency. I support a voluntary proof-of-age scheme that extends to younger children. Cathy Jamieson said that South Ayrshire Council is considering that. I approach it from the point of view of young children and teenagers being allowed to access services to which they are entitled. When my eldest son was 12, he had the embarrassing experience of being turned away at the cinema— all his pals of the same age who were 5 ft 6 in with broken voices got in and my poor lad at 4 ft 6 in with his wee, piping voice did not. When he was eight, my other son was refused entry to the swimming pool. He had to phone me to come and say that he was old enough to swim with his mates. It was doubly embarrassing because I was the convener of the committee that ran the swimming pools at the time. I feel quite strongly about this matter. My children would love a proof-of-age scheme. It would be a great relief from embarrassment for all the wee, young- looking children and teenagers in Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am a former member of South Ayrshire Council, but I am not speaking in that capacity. We thought long and hard about proof-of-age schemes during my time on the council.

I make a plea from the heart. When I was 23, I was thrown out of a pub not because I was drunk and disorderly—for a change—but because the proprietor would not believe I was over 18. Despite my former husband and my colleagues telling him otherwise he would not believe me. Later on I took the precaution of marrying a 6 ft tall 14 stone ex- rugby player but unfortunately our three children all inherited my height deficiency.

I support a voluntary proof-of-age scheme that extends to younger children. Cathy Jamieson said that South Ayrshire Council is considering that. I approach it from the point of view of young children and teenagers being allowed to access services to which they are entitled. When my eldest son was 12, he had the embarrassing experience of being turned away at the cinema— all his pals of the same age who were 5 ft 6 in with broken voices got in and my poor lad at 4 ft 6 in with his wee, piping voice did not.

When he was eight, my other son was refused entry to the swimming pool. He had to phone me to come and say that he was old enough to swim with his mates. It was doubly embarrassing because I was the convener of the committee that ran the swimming pools at the time. I feel quite strongly about this matter. My children would love a proof-of-age scheme. It would be a great relief from embarrassment for all the wee, young- looking children and teenagers in Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1973E119P326C711701", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Nov 1999", "ID": 4191 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Proof-of-age Cards (Ayrshire)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27067, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 147.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 147.0, "ID": 27067, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gorrie, Donald", "ID": 1973, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Donald Gorrie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Donald Gorrie (Central Scotland) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 172.0, "ContributionID": 711701, "EditedText": "Well done, Phil: good motion. Other people have told the stories that I was going to tell, so the case for a card that will help children, publicans and small shopkeepers is established. I would like to press the minister to say either that the Scottish Executive should promote a national scheme, or it should encourage each council to have its own scheme— while ensuring that the schemes are compatible. One way or another, the Executive should promote a scheme throughout Scotland, or say, \"We support the idea, but the relevant parliamentary committee should promote it.\" We must promote this scheme nationally and it must not cost money. A previous scheme, which was established by the charitable arm of the booze manufacturers, was free for children, but when it began to be charged for, the whole thing collapsed. The scheme must be free, it must be compatible across Scotland and it must enable people of different ages to have access to different things. One relevant issue that we could look at is the fact that people are allowed to do things at different ages. Perhaps there should be an age at which one becomes an adult, and can drive cars, go drinking, smoke and so on. That is a separate issue, but it is worth examining. We should support the South Ayrshire scheme strongly, but the Executive must endorse it and either promote it actively or get Parliament to do so.", "EditedTextHTML": "Well done, Phil: good motion.

Other people have told the stories that I was going to tell, so the case for a card that will help children, publicans and small shopkeepers is established. I would like to press the minister to say either that the Scottish Executive should promote a national scheme, or it should encourage each council to have its own scheme— while ensuring that the schemes are compatible. One way or another, the Executive should promote a scheme throughout Scotland, or say, \"We support the idea, but the relevant parliamentary committee should promote it.\"

We must promote this scheme nationally and it must not cost money. A previous scheme, which was established by the charitable arm of the booze manufacturers, was free for children, but when it began to be charged for, the whole thing collapsed. The scheme must be free, it must be compatible across Scotland and it must enable people of different ages to have access to different things.

One relevant issue that we could look at is the fact that people are allowed to do things at different ages. Perhaps there should be an age at which one becomes an adult, and can drive cars, go drinking, smoke and so on. That is a separate issue, but it is worth examining.

We should support the South Ayrshire scheme strongly, but the Executive must endorse it and either promote it actively or get Parliament to do so.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.5451435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C711664", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Nov 1999", "ID": 4191 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Child Care Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27065, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27065, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 87.0, "ContributionID": 711664, "EditedText": "Briefly, please.", "EditedTextHTML": "Briefly, please.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:00:06.5300862+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1870E181P475C711670", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Nov 1999", "ID": 4191 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Child Care Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27065, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27065, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robison, Shona", "ID": 1870, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Shona Robison", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Shona Robison (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 103.0, "ContributionID": 711670, "EditedText": "Although we now have the beginnings of a child care strategy, the aspirations are set far too low. Where is the vision of universal, full-time child care? Helen Eadie has unfortunately left the chamber, but I wonder whether she really was saying that aspirations are no longer relevant in the new Labour world. We must aspire to full-time child care provision—not to do so undermines the whole strategy. Affordability is a key aspect of child care provision. As of 1998, every four-year-old has access to a free, part-time, pre-school education place, which amounts to about two and a half hours of care per day. That provision will be extended to three-year-olds by 2002. However, any pre-school education or child care over and above that must be funded by parents. I acknowledge that there has been an increase in child benefit, which is worth £64 a month at the higher rate. The typical cost of child care can be £50 per week for the very, very lucky—it is more likely to be around £120 per week. Other assistance comes in the form of the working families tax credit. It provides for child care costs up to a maximum of £70 per week for one child, depending on income and as long as the parent works more than 16 hours a week and is not a student.There are many exceptions to the rule and the forms are as complicated as we might expect. Also, the working families tax credit is available only if registered child care is used, so it cannot be used to pay the army of grannies who are often the main child care providers in a family. That is short-sighted and overly restrictive. I am concerned about the working families tax credit from an equal opportunities perspective, too. It is paid through the wage packet by the employer or directly by the Inland Revenue. Couples can decide to whom it is to be paid. In 326,000 of the 406,000 couples who receive the credit, the main earner is the man, so it is likely that the credit will be paid into his wage packet. I am sure that many members will be aware of the problems that that will cause in households in which child care costs may not be seen as the priority. Unfortunately, that is the reality. Although the working families tax credit is a reserved matter, it has a major impact on the Scottish child care strategy. I therefore ask the minister to address a number of key questions that require answers. The working families tax credit is not available to parents who work fewer than 16 hours per week, despite the fact that such parents still have child care needs. Does the Government plan to change that? Will the minister make representations about that? Will there be national monitoring of those who have been refused the working families tax credit and of the reasons for refusal? As I have said, to be eligible for the tax credit, children must be in registered child care, which may not include child care that is provided within the child's home. Some local authorities register such care, but registration should be standard across Scotland to ensure equal access to good-quality care at home. What is being done to ensure that that happens? Parents in higher and further education struggle to pay for child care, and access funds are limited and insufficient. How is that problem being addressed? Employers have a huge role to play in providing child care. Only 10 per cent of employers provide practical help with child care costs. That is abysmal and the Scottish Parliament should examine the matter. However, the Parliament should lead by example. I am concerned that child care in the Parliament has slipped off the agenda—we have to ask why. I am talking about child care for the children of parliamentary staff rather than of MSPs. If we do not lead by example, how can we expect employers to provide child care? The demand for child care is enormous and can be met only if the issue of affordability is dealt with. Therefore, I encourage members to support the amendment.", "EditedTextHTML": "Although we now have the beginnings of a child care strategy, the aspirations are set far too low. Where is the vision of universal, full-time child care? Helen Eadie has unfortunately left the chamber, but I wonder whether she really was saying that aspirations are no longer relevant in the new Labour world. We must aspire to full-time child care provision—not to do so undermines the whole strategy.

Affordability is a key aspect of child care provision. As of 1998, every four-year-old has access to a free, part-time, pre-school education place, which amounts to about two and a half hours of care per day. That provision will be extended to three-year-olds by 2002. However, any pre-school education or child care over and above that must be funded by parents.

I acknowledge that there has been an increase in child benefit, which is worth £64 a month at the higher rate. The typical cost of child care can be £50 per week for the very, very lucky—it is more likely to be around £120 per week. Other assistance comes in the form of the working families tax credit. It provides for child care costs up to a maximum of £70 per week for one child, depending on income and as long as the parent works more than 16 hours a week and is not a

student.

There are many exceptions to the rule and the forms are as complicated as we might expect. Also, the working families tax credit is available only if registered child care is used, so it cannot be used to pay the army of grannies who are often the main child care providers in a family. That is short-sighted and overly restrictive.

I am concerned about the working families tax credit from an equal opportunities perspective, too. It is paid through the wage packet by the employer or directly by the Inland Revenue. Couples can decide to whom it is to be paid. In 326,000 of the 406,000 couples who receive the credit, the main earner is the man, so it is likely that the credit will be paid into his wage packet. I am sure that many members will be aware of the problems that that will cause in households in which child care costs may not be seen as the priority. Unfortunately, that is the reality.

Although the working families tax credit is a reserved matter, it has a major impact on the Scottish child care strategy. I therefore ask the minister to address a number of key questions that require answers.

The working families tax credit is not available to parents who work fewer than 16 hours per week, despite the fact that such parents still have child care needs. Does the Government plan to change that? Will the minister make representations about that?

Will there be national monitoring of those who have been refused the working families tax credit and of the reasons for refusal? As I have said, to be eligible for the tax credit, children must be in registered child care, which may not include child care that is provided within the child's home. Some local authorities register such care, but registration should be standard across Scotland to ensure equal access to good-quality care at home. What is being done to ensure that that happens?

Parents in higher and further education struggle to pay for child care, and access funds are limited and insufficient. How is that problem being addressed?

Employers have a huge role to play in providing child care. Only 10 per cent of employers provide practical help with child care costs. That is abysmal and the Scottish Parliament should examine the matter.

However, the Parliament should lead by example. I am concerned that child care in the Parliament has slipped off the agenda—we have to ask why. I am talking about child care for the children of parliamentary staff rather than of MSPs. If we do not lead by example, how can we expect employers to provide child care?

The demand for child care is enormous and can be met only if the issue of affordability is dealt with. Therefore, I encourage members to support the amendment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:01:26.0699041+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C711634", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Nov 1999", "ID": 4191 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Child Care Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27065, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27065, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 15.0, "ContributionID": 711634, "EditedText": "I welcome this afternoon's debate on the Scottish Executive's child care strategy for Scotland. The child care strategy is one of many policies that has been formulated, consulted on and—to some extent— put into practice without being debated in a national democratic forum in Scotland. Now we have a Parliament of our own, and with it, a chance to subject policies, such as the child care strategy, to proper democratic scrutiny. That is something that all members should welcome. I begin by giving credit where it is due. The Scottish Executive—particularly Sam Galbraith, as his responsibility for this matter predates the Scottish Parliament—deserves a measure of praise for the priority that has been given to child care and the development of a national strategy. Credit is due for the progress that been made towards the provision of nursery places for every three and four-year-old in Scotland—a policy for which, even Sam Galbraith would acknowledge, the SNP has long campaigned.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome this afternoon's debate on the Scottish Executive's child care strategy for Scotland. The child care strategy is one of many policies that has been formulated, consulted on and—to some extent— put into practice without being debated in a national democratic forum in Scotland. Now we have a Parliament of our own, and with it, a chance to subject policies, such as the child care strategy, to proper democratic scrutiny. That is something that all members should welcome.

I begin by giving credit where it is due. The Scottish Executive—particularly Sam Galbraith, as

his responsibility for this matter predates the Scottish Parliament—deserves a measure of praise for the priority that has been given to child care and the development of a national strategy. Credit is due for the progress that been made towards the provision of nursery places for every three and four-year-old in Scotland—a policy for which, even Sam Galbraith would acknowledge, the SNP has long campaigned.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:01:10.1212253+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C711638", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Nov 1999", "ID": 4191 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Child Care Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27065, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 27065, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 23.0, "ContributionID": 711638, "EditedText": "The child care tax credit is certainly a step in the right direction and some of my colleagues will mention it, but there are loopholes and weaknesses in it. I hear what Malcolm Chisholm says about child care provision in Edinburgh. That does not fully answer the problem of sustainability. The fact remains that provision around the country is patchy and what is happening in some areas is not happening everywhere. That reinforces the point that I am making: although much has been done, much has still to be done. It serves no purpose, and certainly not the interests of our children, to deny that fact. Integration is one of the areas in which most work has still to be done. We believe that the way forward is through the provision of children's centres. Sam Galbraith says that there are 93 children's centres around the country. That is great, but he takes the attitude that, because there are 93 centres, everything is fine—that sums up everything that is wrong with the Executive's approach. It is fine that there are 93 centres, but we need more. We should be headed towards children's centres and towards that concept of integrated, wrap-around care. The beauty of children's centres is that pre-school, school and out-of-school education and care can be provided under one roof. Providers can be the local authority or the voluntary or private sectors, but the important thing is that the service follows the child and not the other way round. Local authorities can provide accommodation in under-used schools. The benefits of children's centres are multifold. Costs would be reduced. Moreover, schools could maximise operational capacity—there is much to be done on that, as it could offer an alternative to school closures, especially in rural areas. The real beauty of going down that road is that children would enjoy genuine wrap-around care. That is where the strategy should be heading. Children's centres would require further capital investment, which is the nub of the matter—it is the missing ingredient in the child care strategy. Children's centres would be a real step in the direction of a genuinely integrated child care service. One of the principal motivations behind the child care strategy is to encourage parents back into the workplace, but the interests of children are of equal, if not greater, importance. Children must be at the centre of the child care strategy. This Parliament is bound—because the minister did not refer to this, it is worth mentioning—by the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child. Perhaps we need a revised child care strategy from the Executive to recognise that fact. The group Children in Scotland would welcome that recognition. Children's experience of early education and child care—and the quality of that care—will determine the overall success or failure of the strategy. The Executive intends to establish an independent regulatory body by 2001. We support that policy and look forward to receiving further feedback from the recent consultation exercise on the regulation of early education and child care. We strongly believe that consistent standards of regulation should be set across the range of child care providers—standards should not, as often happens now, vary depending on whether a child care provider is the local authority or the voluntary or private sectors. We also believe that the cost of regulation should rest with the regulator and should not be passed on to parents, as often happens now. One of the crucial determining factors in securing quality of provision is the skill, commitment and qualifications of the staff who are employed to work with children. I was glad that the minister spent time on that point. The SNP believes that, where a child care provider is offering education and delivering a curriculum, there must be appropriate input from qualified teachers. We must also recognise that the distinction between education and child care is, as the minister acknowledged, becoming increasingly blurred. That is to be welcomed, as we should recognise the importance of play in children's development and should resist too narrow a definition of education. As providers of care will inevitably also be providing some education, we should ensure that all child care staff are properly trained and educated. Again, in the spirit of consensus, I welcome what the minister said about that. We, too, believe that a new system of qualifications for child care workers is long overdue. We would do well to consider the Scandinavian model, in which child care workers are trained in psychology, educational studies, health and social studies, as well as in interactive disciplines such as music and drama. That enables child care workers to provide a high-quality service and to work across the increasingly hazy divide between education and child care. A new system of professional qualifications might also raise the status of the child care profession. The SNP has tried—sadly, harder than the Executive has—to approach this debate constructively, and that is how we will proceed this afternoon. We recognise the progress that has been made, but urge ministers not to indulge in too much self-congratulation, as there is still a job to be done. That is demonstrated by the example of some other European countries, where universal, publicly funded child care and education is taken for granted. I hope that we can proceed on the basis of consensus. If that happens, the Executive will certainly have the SNP's support. I move amendment S1M-285.1, to insert at end:\"and considers that efforts must now be directed at securing long-term sustainable funding for child care, ensuring further integration of provision and achieving the highest standards of care and education for all children in Scotland.\"", "EditedTextHTML": "The child care tax credit is certainly a step in the right direction and some of my colleagues will mention it, but there are loopholes and weaknesses in it. I hear what Malcolm Chisholm says about child care provision in Edinburgh. That does not fully answer the problem of sustainability. The fact remains that provision around the country is patchy and what is happening in some areas is not happening everywhere. That reinforces the point that I am making: although much has been done, much has still to be done. It serves no purpose, and certainly not the interests of our children, to deny that fact.

Integration is one of the areas in which most work has still to be done. We believe that the way forward is through the provision of children's centres. Sam Galbraith says that there are 93 children's centres around the country. That is great, but he takes the attitude that, because there are 93 centres, everything is fine—that sums up everything that is wrong with the Executive's approach. It is fine that there are 93 centres, but we need more. We should be headed towards children's centres and towards that concept of integrated, wrap-around care.

The beauty of children's centres is that pre-school, school and out-of-school education and care can be provided under one roof. Providers can be the local authority or the voluntary or private sectors, but the important thing is that the service follows the child and not the other way round.

Local authorities can provide accommodation in under-used schools. The benefits of children's centres are multifold. Costs would be reduced. Moreover, schools could maximise operational capacity—there is much to be done on that, as it could offer an alternative to school closures, especially in rural areas. The real beauty of going down that road is that children would enjoy genuine wrap-around care. That is where the strategy should be heading.

Children's centres would require further capital investment, which is the nub of the matter—it is the missing ingredient in the child care strategy. Children's centres would be a real step in the direction of a genuinely integrated child care service.

One of the principal motivations behind the child care strategy is to encourage parents back into the workplace, but the interests of children are of equal, if not greater, importance. Children must be at the centre of the child care strategy. This Parliament is bound—because the minister did not refer to this, it is worth mentioning—by the United

Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child. Perhaps we need a revised child care strategy from the Executive to recognise that fact. The group Children in Scotland would welcome that recognition.

Children's experience of early education and child care—and the quality of that care—will determine the overall success or failure of the strategy. The Executive intends to establish an independent regulatory body by 2001. We support that policy and look forward to receiving further feedback from the recent consultation exercise on the regulation of early education and child care. We strongly believe that consistent standards of regulation should be set across the range of child care providers—standards should not, as often happens now, vary depending on whether a child care provider is the local authority or the voluntary or private sectors. We also believe that the cost of regulation should rest with the regulator and should not be passed on to parents, as often happens now.

One of the crucial determining factors in securing quality of provision is the skill, commitment and qualifications of the staff who are employed to work with children. I was glad that the minister spent time on that point. The SNP believes that, where a child care provider is offering education and delivering a curriculum, there must be appropriate input from qualified teachers. We must also recognise that the distinction between education and child care is, as the minister acknowledged, becoming increasingly blurred. That is to be welcomed, as we should recognise the importance of play in children's development and should resist too narrow a definition of education.

As providers of care will inevitably also be providing some education, we should ensure that all child care staff are properly trained and educated. Again, in the spirit of consensus, I welcome what the minister said about that. We, too, believe that a new system of qualifications for child care workers is long overdue. We would do well to consider the Scandinavian model, in which child care workers are trained in psychology, educational studies, health and social studies, as well as in interactive disciplines such as music and drama. That enables child care workers to provide a high-quality service and to work across the increasingly hazy divide between education and child care. A new system of professional qualifications might also raise the status of the child care profession.

The SNP has tried—sadly, harder than the Executive has—to approach this debate constructively, and that is how we will proceed this afternoon. We recognise the progress that has been made, but urge ministers not to indulge in too much self-congratulation, as there is still a job to be done. That is demonstrated by the example of some other European countries, where universal, publicly funded child care and education is taken for granted. I hope that we can proceed on the basis of consensus. If that happens, the Executive will certainly have the SNP's support.

I move amendment S1M-285.1, to insert at end:

\"and considers that efforts must now be directed at securing long-term sustainable funding for child care, ensuring further integration of provision and achieving the highest standards of care and education for all children in Scotland.\"

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:01:10.1212253+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1783E59P270C711702", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Nov 1999", "ID": 4191 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Proof-of-age Cards (Ayrshire)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27067, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 147.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 147.0, "ID": 27067, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Baillie, Jackie", "ID": 1783, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumbarton" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Jackie Baillie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Communities (Jackie Baillie): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 175.0, "ContributionID": 711702, "EditedText": "I apologise in advance, because I am loaded with the cold. If I have to stop occasionally, I hope that members will understand. The motion that we have discussed this evening is at the very heart of community safety and the vital social welfare of young Scots. I welcome this opportunity to close the debate on behalf of the Executive. I join in the chorus of thanks to Mr Gallie for congratulating the excellent work of a Labour-controlled local authority. Cathy Jamieson is right when she says that it will continue to be Labour controlled. The debate has been considered. It is clear from the many and varied speeches that Mr Gallie's motion has struck a chord with a great many members. We will take away some points and chew on them further: others I will respond to in the closing minutes. I sense members' concern about not only the seeming ease with which children and young people can get hold of age-restricted goods such as alcohol, tobacco, solvents, fireworks, knives and videos, but the potentially damaging effects that those products can have on the individuals concerned. Often, the impact is felt beyond the individual. Other family members and the wider community are affected, particularly where anti-social and criminal behaviour arises as a result of youngsters getting hold of such products. Retailers who sell age-restricted products are, of course, still primarily responsible for ensuring that such goods do not get into the hands of those deemed too young in law to purchase them. The proof-of-age card not only enables retailers to ensure that they do not breach the law, but assists people who, although of age, appear too young to buy age-restricted products. Although this is the first scheme of its kind operated by local government in Scotland, there is excellent evidence from similar schemes run elsewhere in the UK that suggests that where these cards have been introduced, the number of complaints about illegal sales has decreased. The Executive, therefore, is happy to commend South Ayrshire Council for taking the initiative and launching its proof-of-age-card scheme, which will enable all retailers in the council's area to ask for the same proof-of-age card. A standard policy of no proof, no sale, gives retailers confidence in complying with the law. Ultimately, of course, the scheme's success will depend on the collaboration and commitment of the local business community, trading standards, the police and schools. From what I have learned about the scheme, it is clear that the council has worked hard to get everyone on board; I am certain that that bodes well for the scheme's success. Locally driven, multi-agency work such as this will be most effective. As Cathy Jamieson said, young people were themselves involved in the implementation. Such schemes are attractive to young people, particularly those of age who, when asked, cannot prove their age, and those who do not look their age. I have to admit, I did not think that it was a problem for most of us sitting round this chamber, aside from Elaine Murray. Schemes such as this set up a key barrier to illegal use by young people and exploitation by retailers. The illegal sale of all age-restricted products is to be abhorred. As the motion suggests, alcohol and tobacco are probably the two products that give rise to most concern. Under-age smoking and drinking is, of course, nothing new. Children smoke and drink for all sorts of reasons; some do so to show their independence, others do it because their friends do. Some children smoke and drink because adults have told them not to. In short, there is no single cause. For some youngsters, early experimentation is nothing more than that, but unfortunately—for an increasing number—that first puff or drink leads to a lifetime of problems associated with alcohol and tobacco. We know, for example, that 82 per cent of adults start smoking in their teens and that a third of teenagers buy alcohol for themselves. There is increasing evidence to suggest that people are presenting with alcohol problems at an earlier age, sometimes in their early 20s. There is evidence to suggest that youngsters who smoke and drink are more likely to dabble in drugs. For some teenagers, heavy frequent drinking goes hand in hand with the use of illegal drugs. Smoking is the most preventable cause of ill- health in Scotland. It results in 13,500—that is one in five—deaths every year, and 33,500 hospital admissions. The message on smoking, therefore, is quite unambiguous: \"Don't do it.\" Alcohol, on the other hand, in moderation and at the right time and place, can be included in a healthy lifestyle. However, excessive drinking carries a heavy toll in illness, accidents, anti-social behaviour and criminal acts of violence. Its costs— in personal, social and economic terms—are great and are too often hidden or unheeded. Research tells us that alcohol misuse is linked with crime, lower achievement, poor mental and physical health, family breakdown and poor employment prospects. Sadly, the age of 14—yes, 14— appears to be an alcohol milestone, with most teenagers having begun to drink by 15. Not surprisingly, the Executive is, therefore, concerned about the upward trend in the levels and frequency of drinking and smoking among 12 to 15-year-olds. We are giving a high priority to tackling this problem. We have set targets to achieve a reduction in those levels and we are taking action to improve the situation. Tougher enforcement of illegal under-age sales is another plank in our strategy. We are working closely with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities, the Association of Chief Police Officers and trading standards representatives in Scotland to achieve that. We would encourage wider adoption of proof-of-age-card schemes, such as the one launched in South Ayrshire. At UK level, agreement has been reached with the National Association of Cigarette Machine Operators on a code for their members that would provide clear guidance on the siting arrangements that are expected. On alcohol, there are several measures in place to address young people's drinking. For example, many councils have introduced public bylaws to curb drinking by young people in public places. Powers are now available to the police to confiscate alcohol from under-18s in public places. Those measures are having a positive effect in reducing the incidence of intimidating behaviour on street corners.Those sanctions are backed by the criminal law, but it is not our intention to make criminals of people—young or old—who drink in public places. We want to reduce or eliminate the nuisance element and petty crime associated with it. We want the streets to feel safer for the general public. The absence of threatening groups on street corners and in public parks goes a long way towards that goal. From a health policy point of view, if more young people are drinking less alcohol, the health risks associated with alcohol consumption will be substantially reduced. The Government has recently moved to introduce legislation to ban the sale to children of butane gas cigarette lighter refills. That blocks a potentially dangerous loophole and reinforces existing laws forbidding the sale of volatile substances to children. To complement those enforcement initiatives, we have set up the Scottish Advisory Committee on Alcohol Misuse to drive forward implementation of a new alcohol misuse strategy. Much else is being done to reduce levels of smoking and drinking by children and young people. Local enforcement policies on illegal sales of alcohol, tobacco and other age-restricted products are particularly effective when backed by a simple and acceptable way for young people to prove their age. That more than anything removes doubts and arguments and gives retailers confidence in complying with the law. The Scottish Executive commends South Ayrshire Council for taking the initiative, and I for one would be pleased to see other councils follow its excellent example. I can assure Donald Gorrie that I will examine the ways in which the Executive can further promote such schemes. The more difficult it is for under-age users to access potentially dangerous products, the more the young people affected and Scottish society will ultimately benefit.", "EditedTextHTML": "I apologise in advance, because I am loaded with the cold. If I have to stop occasionally, I hope that members will understand.

The motion that we have discussed this evening is at the very heart of community safety and the vital social welfare of young Scots. I welcome this opportunity to close the debate on behalf of the Executive. I join in the chorus of thanks to Mr Gallie for congratulating the excellent work of a Labour-controlled local authority. Cathy Jamieson is right when she says that it will continue to be Labour controlled.

The debate has been considered. It is clear from the many and varied speeches that Mr Gallie's motion has struck a chord with a great many members. We will take away some points and chew on them further: others I will respond to in the closing minutes.

I sense members' concern about not only the seeming ease with which children and young people can get hold of age-restricted goods such as alcohol, tobacco, solvents, fireworks, knives

and videos, but the potentially damaging effects that those products can have on the individuals concerned. Often, the impact is felt beyond the individual. Other family members and the wider community are affected, particularly where anti-social and criminal behaviour arises as a result of youngsters getting hold of such products.

Retailers who sell age-restricted products are, of course, still primarily responsible for ensuring that such goods do not get into the hands of those deemed too young in law to purchase them. The proof-of-age card not only enables retailers to ensure that they do not breach the law, but assists people who, although of age, appear too young to buy age-restricted products. Although this is the first scheme of its kind operated by local government in Scotland, there is excellent evidence from similar schemes run elsewhere in the UK that suggests that where these cards have been introduced, the number of complaints about illegal sales has decreased.

The Executive, therefore, is happy to commend South Ayrshire Council for taking the initiative and launching its proof-of-age-card scheme, which will enable all retailers in the council's area to ask for the same proof-of-age card. A standard policy of no proof, no sale, gives retailers confidence in complying with the law.

Ultimately, of course, the scheme's success will depend on the collaboration and commitment of the local business community, trading standards, the police and schools. From what I have learned about the scheme, it is clear that the council has worked hard to get everyone on board; I am certain that that bodes well for the scheme's success.

Locally driven, multi-agency work such as this will be most effective. As Cathy Jamieson said, young people were themselves involved in the implementation. Such schemes are attractive to young people, particularly those of age who, when asked, cannot prove their age, and those who do not look their age. I have to admit, I did not think that it was a problem for most of us sitting round this chamber, aside from Elaine Murray.

Schemes such as this set up a key barrier to illegal use by young people and exploitation by retailers. The illegal sale of all age-restricted products is to be abhorred. As the motion suggests, alcohol and tobacco are probably the two products that give rise to most concern. Under-age smoking and drinking is, of course, nothing new. Children smoke and drink for all sorts of reasons; some do so to show their independence, others do it because their friends do. Some children smoke and drink because adults have told them not to. In short, there is no single cause.

For some youngsters, early experimentation is nothing more than that, but unfortunately—for an increasing number—that first puff or drink leads to a lifetime of problems associated with alcohol and tobacco. We know, for example, that 82 per cent of adults start smoking in their teens and that a third of teenagers buy alcohol for themselves. There is increasing evidence to suggest that people are presenting with alcohol problems at an earlier age, sometimes in their early 20s. There is evidence to suggest that youngsters who smoke and drink are more likely to dabble in drugs. For some teenagers, heavy frequent drinking goes hand in hand with the use of illegal drugs.

Smoking is the most preventable cause of ill- health in Scotland. It results in 13,500—that is one in five—deaths every year, and 33,500 hospital admissions. The message on smoking, therefore, is quite unambiguous: \"Don't do it.\"

Alcohol, on the other hand, in moderation and at the right time and place, can be included in a healthy lifestyle. However, excessive drinking carries a heavy toll in illness, accidents, anti-social behaviour and criminal acts of violence. Its costs— in personal, social and economic terms—are great and are too often hidden or unheeded. Research tells us that alcohol misuse is linked with crime, lower achievement, poor mental and physical health, family breakdown and poor employment prospects. Sadly, the age of 14—yes, 14— appears to be an alcohol milestone, with most teenagers having begun to drink by 15.

Not surprisingly, the Executive is, therefore, concerned about the upward trend in the levels and frequency of drinking and smoking among 12 to 15-year-olds. We are giving a high priority to tackling this problem. We have set targets to achieve a reduction in those levels and we are taking action to improve the situation.

Tougher enforcement of illegal under-age sales is another plank in our strategy. We are working closely with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities, the Association of Chief Police Officers and trading standards representatives in Scotland to achieve that. We would encourage wider adoption of proof-of-age-card schemes, such as the one launched in South Ayrshire.

At UK level, agreement has been reached with the National Association of Cigarette Machine Operators on a code for their members that would provide clear guidance on the siting arrangements that are expected. On alcohol, there are several measures in place to address young people's drinking. For example, many councils have introduced public bylaws to curb drinking by young people in public places. Powers are now available to the police to confiscate alcohol from under-18s in public places. Those measures are having a positive effect in reducing the incidence of

intimidating behaviour on street corners.

Those sanctions are backed by the criminal law, but it is not our intention to make criminals of people—young or old—who drink in public places. We want to reduce or eliminate the nuisance element and petty crime associated with it. We want the streets to feel safer for the general public. The absence of threatening groups on street corners and in public parks goes a long way towards that goal. From a health policy point of view, if more young people are drinking less alcohol, the health risks associated with alcohol consumption will be substantially reduced.

The Government has recently moved to introduce legislation to ban the sale to children of butane gas cigarette lighter refills. That blocks a potentially dangerous loophole and reinforces existing laws forbidding the sale of volatile substances to children. To complement those enforcement initiatives, we have set up the Scottish Advisory Committee on Alcohol Misuse to drive forward implementation of a new alcohol misuse strategy.

Much else is being done to reduce levels of smoking and drinking by children and young people. Local enforcement policies on illegal sales of alcohol, tobacco and other age-restricted products are particularly effective when backed by a simple and acceptable way for young people to prove their age. That more than anything removes doubts and arguments and gives retailers confidence in complying with the law.

The Scottish Executive commends South Ayrshire Council for taking the initiative, and I for one would be pleased to see other councils follow its excellent example. I can assure Donald Gorrie that I will examine the ways in which the Executive can further promote such schemes. The more difficult it is for under-age users to access potentially dangerous products, the more the young people affected and Scottish society will ultimately benefit.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:00:18.757086+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C711410", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27033, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 129.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 129.0, "ID": 27033, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 203.0, "ContributionID": 711410, "EditedText": "I welcome the minister's comments; I am sure that they will have a reassuring effect. I do not know whether he has had the opportunity to read the statement that was issued by the Deputy Minister for Children and Education on Monday. If he has read it, he will have to admit that the context in which the statement was placed was not the one that he has just described. The context in which it was placed was likely to give rise to some disquiet in Scottish schools. Will he tell us what steps have been taken to ensure that planning is in place— including planning on the aspects that are not directly under the control of schools—and that it will be monitored to ensure that schools do not suffer disruption?", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the minister's comments; I am sure that they will have a reassuring effect. I do not know whether he has had the opportunity to read the statement that was issued by the Deputy Minister for Children and Education on Monday. If he has read it, he will have to admit that the context in which the statement was placed was not the one that he has just described. The context in which it was placed was likely to give rise to some disquiet in Scottish schools. Will he tell us what steps have been taken to ensure that planning is in place— including planning on the aspects that are not directly under the control of schools—and that it will be monitored to ensure that schools do not suffer disruption?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:00:59.8834011+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2180E179P471C711493", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27036, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 265.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27037, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 266.0, "QuestionHeading": "Information and Communications Technology", "QuestionHeadingID": 27048, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 361.0, "DisplayOrder": 361.0, "ID": 27048, "ParentID": 27037 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lochhead, Richard", "ID": 2180, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Lochhead", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Richard Lochhead: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 364.0, "ContributionID": 711493, "EditedText": "Teachers, like all MSPs, welcome the increased use of IT in the classroom, but there is concern that inadequate support will be available in terms of training and technical support for teachers, who are already expected to wear a variety of hats—", "EditedTextHTML": "Teachers, like all MSPs, welcome the increased use of IT in the classroom, but there is concern that inadequate support will be available in terms of training and technical support for teachers, who are already expected to wear a variety of hats—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:55.944805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1756E184P464C711566", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Temporary Sheriffs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27059, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 490.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 490.0, "ID": 27059, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Grahame, Christine", "ID": 1756, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Christine Grahame", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Christine Grahame: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 522.0, "ContributionID": 711566, "EditedText": "I thank the minister, but that reply is not satisfactory. Each of the High Court judges agreed—there was not one dissenting voice. I cannot understand how the position could not have been foreseen by examining the legislation. I repeat my question: is the minister content that the advice that he received with regard to the impact of the ECHR on the amended legislation that was put through the Parliament is safe?", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the minister, but that reply is not satisfactory. Each of the High Court judges agreed—there was not one dissenting voice. I cannot understand how the position could not have been foreseen by examining the legislation. I repeat my question: is the minister content that the advice that he received with regard to the impact of the ECHR on the amended legislation that was put through the Parliament is safe?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:01:40.7395022+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711320", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Thursday 11 November 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 27030, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 27030, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 2.0, "ContributionID": 711320, "EditedText": "THE PRESIDING OFFICER opened the meeting at 09:31", "EditedTextHTML": "[THE PRESIDING OFFICER opened the meeting at 09:31]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C711322", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27031, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27031, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning (Henry McLeish): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 7.0, "ContributionID": 711322, "EditedText": "Thank you, Sir David. With your permission, I would like to make a statement on the millennium date change problem, which is really a report on the readiness of the Scottish infrastructure. The Prime Minister, Tony Blair, said on 30 March 1998: \"Our aim is to avoid material disruption to public services over the century date change period, and to maintain public confidence that this will be achieved\". When the Prime Minister made that statement, he made no distinction between services for which Government has direct responsibility and those for which it does not. He accepted that, in practice as well as in theory, the buck stops with ministers to oversee the action being taken across the UK infrastructure by a range of bodies in the private and public sectors. The year 2000 problem, or millennium bug, is a UK-wide issue and, since autumn 1997, all UK Government departments and agencies, including those in Scotland, have regularly reported their year 2000 progress to the Cabinet Office. Since July 1999, those reports have been given monthly and there has been an accompanying ministerial statement by the President of the Council in Westminster. I have issued parallel reports to all MSPs to ensure that members have been kept up to date with progress. The powerful message is that we want to be open, transparent and inclusive on this issue. I have been in touch with MSPs on 23 July 1999, 5 October 1999, 29 October 1999, and the millennium bug booklet has also been issued. Today, with only 50 days to go, and with increasing public interest in year 2000 matters, I intend to report on the overall state of year 2000 preparedness throughout the infrastructure in Scotland. As members will appreciate, the failure of microchips and software could have had a serious impact on so many services on which daily life depends—almost all human activity could have been affected. The problem is all-pervasive and had to be addressed with the utmost seriousness. Achieving year 2000 compliance in any big, modern organisation requires rigorous, systematic and sustained effort over a substantial period of time and means that the organisation has taken the following steps. First, it has drawn up a comprehensive list of systems and equipment that could be affected by the date change problem. Secondly, it has tested those systems and equipment. Thirdly, it has taken any necessary remedial action to ensure as far as possible that operations will not be disrupted. Fourthly, it has undertaken risk assessment, and, finally, it has tried and tested contingency plans in place. It is also particularly important that key organisations not only correct and test their systems and equipment but clearly demonstrate to the public and the media that they are dealing with year 2000 problems. Otherwise, our explicit objectives of reassuring the public and answering their concerns could not be achieved. That reassurance of the public is a vital part of the process. To that end, Action 2000, a Government- sponsored company, was commissioned to manage the millennium infrastructure project on behalf of the UK Government. The project's remit was to raise awareness, provide assistance and support, and establish a public confidence programme to report on the state of preparation throughout the national infrastructure. Part of that process was to instigate an extensive programme of independent assessment and to publicise the results. Action 2000 therefore commissioned a study of key interdependencies in the UK. The study identified the critical importance of infrastructure services to achieving the objective of no material disruption. On 1 December 1998, we organised the first Scottish infrastructure conference. That brought together the providers of all essential infrastructure in Scotland—the electricity, gas, water, telecommunications and oil companies and the Scottish clearing banks—with public sector consumers of those services such as the national health service, the fire and police services and local authorities. The conference aimed to identify and explore interdependencies; to share information and best practice; to provide mutual assistance and support; and to provide public assurances. From that was born the Scottish infrastructure forum, a group with representation from all the major players in the fabric of the Scottish infrastructure. That was a first: a unique, unprecedented collaboration and information- sharing exercise that helped to bring us all successfully to where we are today, with 50 days to go. Action 2000 further decided that the year 2000 rectification programme in the public sector, and among those key utilities, would include rigorous independent assessment. No other country in the world attempted such an undertaking, requiring as it did the comprehensive mapping of the national infrastructure dependencies. The Scottish Executive acts as the responsible body for a wide and diverse range of public bodies that provide infrastructure services in the country. We reported on progress at three national infrastructure forums in London, the most recent of which took place on 21 October when there was a further round of UK-wide disclosure. Those results were published in a series of newspaper adverts in the national press. While devolution changed the working relationship with central Government, that in no way reduced the co-ordination of our efforts to ensure that this worldwide problem was dealt with properly. The Secretary of State for Scotland is a member of Misc 4—the UK Cabinet committee for year 2000 matters—and of the civil contingencies committee, which is responsible for emergency planning for the UK as a whole. The Scotland Office is also represented at official level on the millennium steering group, the Scottish Executive's co-ordinating group on millennium matters. We are ensuring that effective communication and liaison exists between the Scottish Executive and the Scotland Office. I am pleased to report that all sectors of the Scottish infrastructure are now categorised as blue under the Action 2000 traffic-light system. That classification means \"the assessment process has identified no risk of material disruption.\" Some of the press and some colleagues have expressed concerns about two particular Scottish organisations: Caledonian MacBrayne and Loganair. It is right and proper for those concerns to be expressed; indeed that is why the process was made public and transparent. However, I assure colleagues today that the latest situation shows that those organisations are now classified as blue. Looking back at the enormous amount of work that was undertaken for the operation to achieve that result, I must say that the exercise was not sterile or valueless, but produced conspicuous benefits. Most organisations already had a contingency strategy, which we will refer to as a business continuity plan. It is good business sense to have a plan that is designed to ensure continuity of service, in case problems occur at any time, for any reason. Those plans have been revisited in light of the millennium threat and revised as necessary. Each business continuity plan now contains a plan within a plan. Those millennium operating regimes, as we call them, refer to the special arrangements that are being put in place to handle the particular circumstances of the millennium period. They enhance, but do not replace, the normal contingency plans or existing emergency procedures. However, they address all millennium issues, whether bug-related or not. We must remember that there are a number of potential risks over the millennium, for example, extreme weather, not to mention all the millennium parties that will be taking place. We have also established strategic emergency forums in the major cities. I can provide colleagues with details of the activities that are taking place in Edinburgh, Glasgow, Aberdeen and Dundee and the steps that are being taken to ensure that those activities go ahead and celebration is enjoyed without difficulties. Colleagues will have noticed that, throughout this speech, I have stressed co-operation and good communication. I should perhaps mention here the inter-Parliament and cross-departmental collaboration that has been necessary in bringing this all-encompassing project to what, I have no doubt, will be a successful conclusion. I am a member of the millennium date change committee, which enables devolved administrations to continue to participate. I have had talks on the year 2000 issue with Iain Anderson, special adviser to the Prime Minister, as well as with many other representatives from various Government departments and ministries. This has been a genuine team effort. In order to continue that, and to ensure a successful incident-free transition into the new millennium, a joint communications centre that will be known as the Scottish information liaison centre—or SILC—will be set up in St Andrew's House. SILC will be manned by representatives from the key utilities, the emergency services, emergency planning officials, the media, the Scottish Executive press office and the Scottish Executive year 2000 team from 6 pm on 31 December until 6 pm on 1 January. Arrangements are in hand to extend this until 5 January, or beyond, if necessary. SILC will provide coordinated communication and will pull together incident reports from all over Scotland, the UK and around the world and will collate that data to provide up-to-the-minute information to the media on all key services. This also means that ministers in both the Scottish Executive and the Scotland Office will be kept informed of bug-related incidents whether they occur in Scotland, the UK or abroad, irrespective of whether they relate to devolved or reserved matters. I will provide all members with a SILC telephone contact number in due course. It is only right that I should be keen to involve every member of this Parliament in activities that are designed to ensure that we have a disruption- free programme. To do that, it is vital that every member has access to the most immediate and up-to-date information. The media will be briefed about the Scottish information liaison centre and will be invited to see the operation of the centre during a dry exercise on 17 December. This will not be a purely bug-related initiative. It is vital that we remember that new year is a time when large gatherings always put a strain on police resources, when large numbers of people always try to use the phone at the same time and when the weather always seems to be at its worst. That means that there is more probability of disruption at that time of year, even under so- called normal circumstances. SILC will, therefore, monitor all incidents throughout Scotland whether they are caused by adverse weather, larger than usual crowds or different patterns of behaviour or travel. SILC will dispel any bug myths on the night. SILC will avoid duplication of effort and ensure consistency and accuracy of communications, will facilitate links to Whitehall and the Scotland Office and will allow the media to be kept fully informed. The media must be our link with the public and it is vital that every service that we can provide is in place on the night. Some people might find it hard to understand that central Government would need to have emergency plans. The truth is that good government always has well-established procedures for a wide range of possible emergencies. Very few of those risks ever materialise, but we would be foolhardy and much criticised if we did not plan for them. I am sure that many members have a personal contingency plan, which is generally known as life insurance. The millennium produces its own unique set of problems and we have done our best to ensure that those have been fully anticipated and prepared for. Before I conclude, however, I should point out that one area of concern remains. A recent study by Action 2000 showed that, despite numerous attempts to raise the issue's profile, many small and medium businesses in Scotland have been slow to recognise the importance of checking their own systems. Scotland has some 300,000 such companies, around 290,000 of which have under 50 employees. Those companies form the backbone of Scotland's economy and it is vital that they take sensible precautions against the bug. Each was recently issued with the comprehensive \"Last Chance Guide\", which outlines the steps that they should be taking. I hope that that will lead to an increase in awareness. This is an area where Scotland's press and media could have an important impact in publicising the problem and in urging that action be taken. Ensuring that all necessary actions have been taken is a team effort, and I ask colleagues—all 129 MSPs—to act as ambassadors in their own areas for emphasising, particularly to the small and medium enterprise sector, the importance of being prepared. I can provide information for any of my colleagues on who should be contacted and where assistance is available. The local enterprise companies, the support units and Action 2000 have myriad ideas and suggestions of what can be secured if small and medium businesses want to do so. I cannot stress how important it is, during the final 50 days, to get that message across. I understand some of the bottom-line constraints that small and medium enterprises face, but it is critical that they do as much as they can. If help is required, we are keen to provide it. All the work and co-operation will ensure that, in Scotland, the transition to the year 2000 will not be remembered for major disruptions, but for its unique celebrations. I hope that this statement has been of assistance. I seek the co-operation and assistance of all 129 MSPs to ensure that we achieve that success. I would be pleased to respond to members' questions.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you, Sir David. With your permission, I would like to make a statement on the millennium date change problem, which is really a report on the readiness of the Scottish infrastructure.

The Prime Minister, Tony Blair, said on 30 March 1998:

\"Our aim is to avoid material disruption to public services over the century date change period, and to maintain public confidence that this will be achieved\".

When the Prime Minister made that statement, he made no distinction between services for which Government has direct responsibility and those for which it does not. He accepted that, in practice as well as in theory, the buck stops with ministers to oversee the action being taken across the UK infrastructure by a range of bodies in the private and public sectors.

The year 2000 problem, or millennium bug, is a UK-wide issue and, since autumn 1997, all UK Government departments and agencies, including those in Scotland, have regularly reported their year 2000 progress to the Cabinet Office. Since July 1999, those reports have been given monthly and there has been an accompanying ministerial statement by the President of the Council in Westminster. I have issued parallel reports to all MSPs to ensure that members have been kept up to date with progress. The powerful message is that we want to be open, transparent and inclusive on this issue. I have been in touch with MSPs on 23 July 1999, 5 October 1999, 29 October 1999, and the millennium bug booklet has also been issued.

Today, with only 50 days to go, and with increasing public interest in year 2000 matters, I intend to report on the overall state of year 2000 preparedness throughout the infrastructure in Scotland.

As members will appreciate, the failure of microchips and software could have had a serious impact on so many services on which daily life depends—almost all human activity could have been affected. The problem is all-pervasive and had to be addressed with the utmost seriousness.

Achieving year 2000 compliance in any big, modern organisation requires rigorous, systematic and sustained effort over a substantial period of time and means that the organisation has taken the following steps. First, it has drawn up a comprehensive list of systems and equipment that could be affected by the date change problem. Secondly, it has tested those systems and equipment. Thirdly, it has taken any necessary remedial action to ensure as far as possible that operations will not be disrupted. Fourthly, it has undertaken risk assessment, and, finally, it has tried and tested contingency plans in place.

It is also particularly important that key organisations not only correct and test their systems and equipment but clearly demonstrate to the public and the media that they are dealing with year 2000 problems. Otherwise, our explicit objectives of reassuring the public and answering their concerns could not be achieved. That reassurance of the public is a vital part of the process.

To that end, Action 2000, a Government- sponsored company, was commissioned to manage the millennium infrastructure project on behalf of the UK Government. The project's remit was to raise awareness, provide assistance and support, and establish a public confidence programme to report on the state of preparation throughout the national infrastructure. Part of that process was to instigate an extensive programme of independent assessment and to publicise the results. Action 2000 therefore commissioned a study of key interdependencies in the UK. The study identified the critical importance of infrastructure services to achieving the objective of no material disruption.

On 1 December 1998, we organised the first Scottish infrastructure conference. That brought together the providers of all essential infrastructure in Scotland—the electricity, gas, water, telecommunications and oil companies and the Scottish clearing banks—with public sector consumers of those services such as the national health service, the fire and police services and local authorities. The conference aimed to identify

and explore interdependencies; to share information and best practice; to provide mutual assistance and support; and to provide public assurances. From that was born the Scottish infrastructure forum, a group with representation from all the major players in the fabric of the Scottish infrastructure. That was a first: a unique, unprecedented collaboration and information- sharing exercise that helped to bring us all successfully to where we are today, with 50 days to go.

Action 2000 further decided that the year 2000 rectification programme in the public sector, and among those key utilities, would include rigorous independent assessment. No other country in the world attempted such an undertaking, requiring as it did the comprehensive mapping of the national infrastructure dependencies.

The Scottish Executive acts as the responsible body for a wide and diverse range of public bodies that provide infrastructure services in the country. We reported on progress at three national infrastructure forums in London, the most recent of which took place on 21 October when there was a further round of UK-wide disclosure. Those results were published in a series of newspaper adverts in the national press.

While devolution changed the working relationship with central Government, that in no way reduced the co-ordination of our efforts to ensure that this worldwide problem was dealt with properly. The Secretary of State for Scotland is a member of Misc 4—the UK Cabinet committee for year 2000 matters—and of the civil contingencies committee, which is responsible for emergency planning for the UK as a whole. The Scotland Office is also represented at official level on the millennium steering group, the Scottish Executive's co-ordinating group on millennium matters. We are ensuring that effective communication and liaison exists between the Scottish Executive and the Scotland Office.

I am pleased to report that all sectors of the Scottish infrastructure are now categorised as blue under the Action 2000 traffic-light system. That classification means

\"the assessment process has identified no risk of material disruption.\"

Some of the press and some colleagues have expressed concerns about two particular Scottish organisations: Caledonian MacBrayne and Loganair. It is right and proper for those concerns to be expressed; indeed that is why the process was made public and transparent. However, I assure colleagues today that the latest situation shows that those organisations are now classified as blue.

Looking back at the enormous amount of work that was undertaken for the operation to achieve that result, I must say that the exercise was not sterile or valueless, but produced conspicuous benefits. Most organisations already had a contingency strategy, which we will refer to as a business continuity plan. It is good business sense to have a plan that is designed to ensure continuity of service, in case problems occur at any time, for any reason. Those plans have been revisited in light of the millennium threat and revised as necessary. Each business continuity plan now contains a plan within a plan.

Those millennium operating regimes, as we call them, refer to the special arrangements that are being put in place to handle the particular circumstances of the millennium period. They enhance, but do not replace, the normal contingency plans or existing emergency procedures. However, they address all millennium issues, whether bug-related or not. We must remember that there are a number of potential risks over the millennium, for example, extreme weather, not to mention all the millennium parties that will be taking place.

We have also established strategic emergency forums in the major cities. I can provide colleagues with details of the activities that are taking place in Edinburgh, Glasgow, Aberdeen and Dundee and the steps that are being taken to ensure that those activities go ahead and celebration is enjoyed without difficulties.

Colleagues will have noticed that, throughout this speech, I have stressed co-operation and good communication. I should perhaps mention here the inter-Parliament and cross-departmental collaboration that has been necessary in bringing this all-encompassing project to what, I have no doubt, will be a successful conclusion. I am a member of the millennium date change committee, which enables devolved administrations to continue to participate. I have had talks on the year 2000 issue with Iain Anderson, special adviser to the Prime Minister, as well as with many other representatives from various Government departments and ministries. This has been a genuine team effort.

In order to continue that, and to ensure a successful incident-free transition into the new millennium, a joint communications centre that will be known as the Scottish information liaison centre—or SILC—will be set up in St Andrew's House. SILC will be manned by representatives from the key utilities, the emergency services, emergency planning officials, the media, the Scottish Executive press office and the Scottish Executive year 2000 team from 6 pm on 31 December until 6 pm on 1 January. Arrangements are in hand to extend this until 5 January, or beyond, if necessary. SILC will provide co

ordinated communication and will pull together incident reports from all over Scotland, the UK and around the world and will collate that data to provide up-to-the-minute information to the media on all key services.

This also means that ministers in both the Scottish Executive and the Scotland Office will be kept informed of bug-related incidents whether they occur in Scotland, the UK or abroad, irrespective of whether they relate to devolved or reserved matters. I will provide all members with a SILC telephone contact number in due course.

It is only right that I should be keen to involve every member of this Parliament in activities that are designed to ensure that we have a disruption- free programme. To do that, it is vital that every member has access to the most immediate and up-to-date information. The media will be briefed about the Scottish information liaison centre and will be invited to see the operation of the centre during a dry exercise on 17 December.

This will not be a purely bug-related initiative. It is vital that we remember that new year is a time when large gatherings always put a strain on police resources, when large numbers of people always try to use the phone at the same time and when the weather always seems to be at its worst. That means that there is more probability of disruption at that time of year, even under so- called normal circumstances. SILC will, therefore, monitor all incidents throughout Scotland whether they are caused by adverse weather, larger than usual crowds or different patterns of behaviour or travel. SILC will dispel any bug myths on the night.

SILC will avoid duplication of effort and ensure consistency and accuracy of communications, will facilitate links to Whitehall and the Scotland Office and will allow the media to be kept fully informed. The media must be our link with the public and it is vital that every service that we can provide is in place on the night.

Some people might find it hard to understand that central Government would need to have emergency plans. The truth is that good government always has well-established procedures for a wide range of possible emergencies. Very few of those risks ever materialise, but we would be foolhardy and much criticised if we did not plan for them. I am sure that many members have a personal contingency plan, which is generally known as life insurance. The millennium produces its own unique set of problems and we have done our best to ensure that those have been fully anticipated and prepared for.

Before I conclude, however, I should point out that one area of concern remains. A recent study by Action 2000 showed that, despite numerous attempts to raise the issue's profile, many small and medium businesses in Scotland have been slow to recognise the importance of checking their own systems. Scotland has some 300,000 such companies, around 290,000 of which have under 50 employees.

Those companies form the backbone of Scotland's economy and it is vital that they take sensible precautions against the bug. Each was recently issued with the comprehensive \"Last Chance Guide\", which outlines the steps that they should be taking. I hope that that will lead to an increase in awareness. This is an area where Scotland's press and media could have an important impact in publicising the problem and in urging that action be taken. Ensuring that all necessary actions have been taken is a team effort, and I ask colleagues—all 129 MSPs—to act as ambassadors in their own areas for emphasising, particularly to the small and medium enterprise sector, the importance of being prepared.

I can provide information for any of my colleagues on who should be contacted and where assistance is available. The local enterprise companies, the support units and Action 2000 have myriad ideas and suggestions of what can be secured if small and medium businesses want to do so. I cannot stress how important it is, during the final 50 days, to get that message across. I understand some of the bottom-line constraints that small and medium enterprises face, but it is critical that they do as much as they can. If help is required, we are keen to provide it.

All the work and co-operation will ensure that, in Scotland, the transition to the year 2000 will not be remembered for major disruptions, but for its unique celebrations. I hope that this statement has been of assistance. I seek the co-operation and assistance of all 129 MSPs to ensure that we achieve that success. I would be pleased to respond to members' questions.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C711327", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27031, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27031, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 17.0, "ContributionID": 711327, "EditedText": "The millennium readiness of lighthouses is not one of the key issues that I have been able to concentrate on, but I can assure Miss Goldie that I will send her information about that. Every aspect of Government responsibility has been covered, so lighthouses are millennium ready, and I shall ensure that she knows the details of the process that has been undertaken to achieve that. I can confirm that lighthouses and all facilities connected with safety at sea are millennium ready and at the amber position.", "EditedTextHTML": "The millennium readiness of lighthouses is not one of the key issues that I have been able to concentrate on, but I can assure Miss Goldie that I will send her information about that. Every aspect of Government responsibility has been covered, so lighthouses are millennium ready, and I shall ensure that she knows the details of the process that has been undertaken to achieve that. I can confirm that lighthouses and all facilities connected with safety at sea are millennium ready and at the amber position.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1775E171P452C711330", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27031, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27031, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeod, Fiona", "ID": 1775, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona McLeod", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona McLeod (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 23.0, "ContributionID": 711330, "EditedText": "That answer prompts me to ask about Glasgow City Council's millennium operating regime and business continuity planning. The problems that arose a week past Friday, when we had two hours with no access to telephones, make me wonder whether the millennium contingency plan, which I understood had been tested, failed on that occasion. I would like reassurance on that point. The other point that I wanted to raise is this. Will the minister consider inviting MSPs to the dry run of SILC for the media on 17 December to give us a better idea of what we would be phoning?", "EditedTextHTML": "That answer prompts me to ask about Glasgow City Council's millennium operating regime and business continuity planning. The problems that arose a week past Friday, when we had two hours with no access to telephones, make me wonder

whether the millennium contingency plan, which I understood had been tested, failed on that occasion. I would like reassurance on that point.

The other point that I wanted to raise is this. Will the minister consider inviting MSPs to the dry run of SILC for the media on 17 December to give us a better idea of what we would be phoning?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C711339", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27031, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27031, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 41.0, "ContributionID": 711339, "EditedText": "With my ministerial responsibilities, that could be arranged. The serious answer is that there will be duty ministers. I am in charge overall and will take overall responsibility, although, of course, the Scottish Executive takes collective responsibility. Other ministers, too, will be available, especially for areas such as the health service or the prison service, so that there is coverage. We will not isolate our civil servants without ministers, too, receiving collective punishment.", "EditedTextHTML": "With my ministerial responsibilities, that could be arranged.

The serious answer is that there will be duty ministers. I am in charge overall and will take overall responsibility, although, of course, the Scottish Executive takes collective responsibility. Other ministers, too, will be available, especially for areas such as the health service or the prison service, so that there is coverage. We will not isolate our civil servants without ministers, too, receiving collective punishment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1916E38P70C711340", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27031, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27031, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Ben", "ID": 1916, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ben Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ben Wallace (North-East Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 43.0, "ContributionID": 711340, "EditedText": "I thank the minister for his frank statement. Can he assure us—I know that this is not directly in his remit—that he has made representations to the Secretary of State for Defence about contingency plans for the Territorial Army in the case of dire emergency? In view of the letter that appeared last November from the then Secretary of State for Scotland, Donald Dewar, to George Robertson, saying that if the cuts to the TA went ahead, the TA would be unable to cope, can he assure us, as the cuts did go ahead, that there are other contingency plans in the offing?", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the minister for his frank statement. Can he assure us—I know that this is not directly in his remit—that he has made representations to the Secretary of State for Defence about contingency plans for the Territorial Army in the case of dire emergency? In view of the letter that appeared last November from the then Secretary of State for Scotland, Donald Dewar, to George Robertson, saying that if the cuts to the TA went ahead, the TA would be unable to cope, can he assure us, as the cuts did go ahead, that there are other contingency plans in the offing?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C711343", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27031, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27031, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 49.0, "ContributionID": 711343, "EditedText": "That contribution stretches even my patience. I thank Fergus for helping my career to go downwards by congratulating me on the openness of my statement. That said, this is not the time to think about snubs. It is not a snub; that is a cheap soundbite. We have tried to make sure that in every part of the UK those who do not speak English have the information. It is not a snub to Gaelic speakers to say that they speak English as well as everyone else. The document has been well received and explains in great detail what the problems are and how we can cope with them. I assure Fergus and the nation that there was no intent to snub in not having a box to tick for Gaelic.", "EditedTextHTML": "That contribution stretches even my patience. I thank Fergus for helping my career to go downwards by congratulating me on the openness of my statement.

That said, this is not the time to think about snubs. It is not a snub; that is a cheap soundbite. We have tried to make sure that in every part of the UK those who do not speak English have the information. It is not a snub to Gaelic speakers to say that they speak English as well as everyone else. The document has been well received and explains in great detail what the problems are and how we can cope with them. I assure Fergus and the nation that there was no intent to snub in not having a box to tick for Gaelic.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C711347", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27031, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27031, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 57.0, "ContributionID": 711347, "EditedText": "At the millennium there will be much more activity by the police. They discussed that with us and that is why the extra money was given. Any additional resources the fire service needs will come from within the service, but they are likely to be much more modest. Angus MacKay can give the member more detail on that when he is winding up the debate.", "EditedTextHTML": "At the millennium there will be much more activity by the police. They discussed that with us and that is why the extra money was given. Any additional resources the fire service needs will come from within the service, but they are likely to be much more modest. Angus MacKay can give the member more detail on that when he is winding up the debate.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711350", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27031, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27031, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 63.0, "ContributionID": 711350, "EditedText": "We now move to the debate. If members wish to speak, they should press their buttons now.", "EditedTextHTML": "We now move to the debate. If members wish to speak, they should press their buttons now.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1770E82P108C711369", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27031, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27031, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Thomson, Elaine", "ID": 1770, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Thomson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Elaine Thomson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 105.0, "ContributionID": 711369, "EditedText": "The debate sends a clear signal that the Government takes the issue extremely seriously. It is a further indication to those organisations that have not already taken action on the matter—in the SME sector, for example—that it is time that they did so. As I was saying, now we can relax and enjoy the millennium celebrations.", "EditedTextHTML": "The debate sends a clear signal that the Government takes the issue extremely seriously. It is a further indication to those organisations that have not already taken action on the matter—in the SME sector, for example—that it is time that they did so.

As I was saying, now we can relax and enjoy the millennium celebrations.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C711370", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27031, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27031, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 107.0, "ContributionID": 711370, "EditedText": "Given Elaine Thomson's comments on the SME interest, does she agree that the lack of members in the chamber is sending out the wrong message?", "EditedTextHTML": "Given Elaine Thomson's comments on the SME interest, does she agree that the lack of members in the chamber is sending out the wrong message?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711375", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27031, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27031, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 120.0, "ContributionID": 711375, "EditedText": "I call Karen Whitefield, and apologise if I have to interrupt her speech at", "EditedTextHTML": "I call Karen Whitefield, and apologise if I have to interrupt her speech at

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C711381", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27033, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 129.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 129.0, "ID": 27033, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 136.0, "ContributionID": 711381, "EditedText": "We had 18 years to prepare for disaster. Laughter. We kept winning election after election; ultimately our luck had to run out and, of course, it did. I accept that as a factor. I have mentioned some matters for which the Scottish Executive is responsible, but I warn ministers about some wider areas, such as the facilities that are managed by local authorities. We must also consider social security; I would like an indication that all is well there. We need look back only a few months for examples—such as educational pensions and national insurance issues—of the shambles that arose from the installation of new social security computers. I seek some comforting words on that. I compliment the private sector, particularly the new private sector—the utilities—and wish to emphasise that it has poured millions of pounds into combating the millennium bug. If those industries had not been privatised, would the public sector have been able to find the money to address the issues? Electricity, gas, water and telecommunications are all essential to the interests of all our citizens well into the new millennium. I compliment one particular company that I have been able to do a little research on. I do not have to declare an interest because I no longer have links with Scottish Power, but I know that it has advanced its clocks into 2000. I think that it is working on dates beyond March 2000, perhaps to overcome the leap-year factor. That is important from the power generation and systems point of view; it shows that people have looked ahead and that—in some of the major utilities—we can get through without feeling the bump. Very few people in the chamber will recognise that Scottish Power has achieved that. I am also aware of the efforts Scottish Power has put in to cover the night of 31 December and the morning of 1 January. It has a few hundred staff standing by to supplement resources in all its facilities across the land. Additional resources have been put into call centres. I hope that—I suspect it will—the telephone system holds up, although Fiona McLeod suggested that it might not. There is always pressure at the midnight hour on that night. This year it will be a special event, but I believe that telecommunications companies will be reasonably able to address the issues. I would welcome an assurance from the minister that the emergency telephone services will be kept fully available and that there is no chance of their crumbling at that time. What special arrangements have been made for the emergency telephone services? Warning shots have been fired regarding small businesses, where there could be problems. I welcome the minister's apparent suggestion that in the circumstances there will be support into the millennium for small businesses and others. I would like to welcome the additional £4.7 million of funding that has been put into the police. John Swinney mentioned a figure for the Metropolitan police that far exceeds £4.7 million. Mr Swinney may correct me if I am wrong, but I thought the figure for the Metropolitan police was for a year and was to cover a range of activities including civic visits and goodness knows what else. The £4.7 million here is for the millennium period, but I will stand corrected if that is not the case. I would like to hear the Government's views on some of the disparities that might arise for those who will be working through the period of celebration. Special arrangements for additional payments have been made for a number of key workers in the private sector and the Government has recognised that there will be a need for special effort in the health service—additional support will be available for health service workers. There are different circumstances, though, and in the public sector some of those differences could border on unfairness. I spoke to some firemen the other day. They will simply be working to contract. We know that they will provide excellent service. Finally, I wish the First Minister well in bringing in the new year in the Scottish information liaison centre.", "EditedTextHTML": "We had 18 years to prepare for disaster. [Laughter.] We kept winning election after election; ultimately our luck had to run out and, of course, it did. I accept that as a factor.

I have mentioned some matters for which the Scottish Executive is responsible, but I warn ministers about some wider areas, such as the facilities that are managed by local authorities. We must also consider social security; I would like an indication that all is well there. We need look back only a few months for examples—such as educational pensions and national insurance issues—of the shambles that arose from the installation of new social security computers. I seek some comforting words on that.

I compliment the private sector, particularly the new private sector—the utilities—and wish to emphasise that it has poured millions of pounds into combating the millennium bug. If those industries had not been privatised, would the public sector have been able to find the money to address the issues? Electricity, gas, water and telecommunications are all essential to the interests of all our citizens well into the new millennium.

I compliment one particular company that I have been able to do a little research on. I do not have to declare an interest because I no longer have links with Scottish Power, but I know that it has advanced its clocks into 2000. I think that it is working on dates beyond March 2000, perhaps to overcome the leap-year factor. That is important from the power generation and systems point of view; it shows that people have looked ahead and that—in some of the major utilities—we can get through without feeling the bump. Very few people in the chamber will recognise that Scottish Power has achieved that.

I am also aware of the efforts Scottish Power has put in to cover the night of 31 December and the morning of 1 January. It has a few hundred staff standing by to supplement resources in all its facilities across the land. Additional resources have been put into call centres. I hope that—I suspect it will—the telephone system holds up, although Fiona McLeod suggested that it might not.

There is always pressure at the midnight hour on that night. This year it will be a special event, but I believe that telecommunications companies will be reasonably able to address the issues. I would welcome an assurance from the minister that the emergency telephone services will be kept fully available and that there is no chance of their crumbling at that time. What special arrangements have been made for the emergency telephone services?

Warning shots have been fired regarding small businesses, where there could be problems. I welcome the minister's apparent suggestion that in the circumstances there will be support into the millennium for small businesses and others.

I would like to welcome the additional £4.7 million of funding that has been put into the police. John Swinney mentioned a figure for the Metropolitan police that far exceeds £4.7 million. Mr Swinney may correct me if I am wrong, but I thought the figure for the Metropolitan police was for a year and was to cover a range of activities including civic visits and goodness knows what else. The £4.7 million here is for the millennium period, but I will stand corrected if that is not the case.

I would like to hear the Government's views on some of the disparities that might arise for those who will be working through the period of celebration. Special arrangements for additional payments have been made for a number of key workers in the private sector and the Government has recognised that there will be a need for special effort in the health service—additional support will be available for health service workers.

There are different circumstances, though, and in the public sector some of those differences could border on unfairness. I spoke to some firemen the other day. They will simply be working to contract. We know that they will provide excellent service.

Finally, I wish the First Minister well in bringing in the new year in the Scottish information liaison centre.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1950E155P451C711382", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27033, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 129.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 129.0, "ID": 27033, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Campbell, Colin", "ID": 1950, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Colin Campbell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Colin Campbell (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 139.0, "ContributionID": 711382, "EditedText": "Much of the time one must admire Phil Gallie'sbrass neck—he and his strange old colours are great. We accept that the feared general breakdown as a result of the millennium bug has been largely taken care of, but because all such things are run by and for human beings, one can never be too sure. Henry McLeish touched on the matter of the biggest party in the world, which is a staggering thought, both metaphorically and literally. It could be a really big party. On a visit to Strathclyde police last week, I spoke to the director of operations. He was confident that all contingencies have been considered in the emergency plans. I was particularly worried that if something bad happened in one area, reinforcements should be able to move from another area. He was confident that that will be possible and that most of the awful things that might occur have been considered. Henry McLeish also mentioned the climate crises that we have from time to time. Some members might recall bits of their roofs taking off on boxing day last year—£1,000-worth of my roof took off. Several days passed before I could do anything about it—without recourse to emergency services. My concern is that if there is a conjunction of any kind of electronic failure, really bad climatic conditions and the biggest party in the world in all the town centres throughout Scotland, the services could be severely overstretched. For example, some police forces, such as Strathclyde police, are daily 350 officers short of their normal roll. In the past—although I am not going to rake over it too much—the Territorial Army has always been ready to help. As Ben Wallace mentioned, Donald Dewar made an issue of that last year. The TA has provided signals communication when phone lines have gone down, specialised transport to get in and out of flooded areas and specialised bulldozers and equipment when that has been required. The TA has now been almost halved, and a lot of that specialised equipment has gone. I was a little alarmed that the minister did not touch on the military association at all, until Ben Wallace talked about it. The regular forces have their communications lined up for the period, as they normally do in their major functions, and territorial troops—especially communications troops—have been put on standby. I would like to hear, in the Executive's summing-up, what arrangements have been made. TA commanding officers are often appointed military liaison officers to counsel emergency planning committees. I hope that we will be given some indication of the extent to which military liaison officers have been associating with their counterparts in the respective councils to make contingency plans against the awesome prospect of the biggest party going wrong and the climate turning severe at the same time. There has been talk of Henry McLeish's title— the man in the bunker. When Sam Galbraith was leaving the chamber, he made big-headed gestures towards Henry McLeish as well, as if he was going to be the big-headed man in the bunker. As he will be the man in silk on hogmanay, he should probably be the man in SILC for the purposes of this exercise. I hope that he is confident. I am sure he will do everything he can to ensure that, should anything go wrong, either because of the millennium bug or because of climatic adversity, there will be enough reserves to cope.", "EditedTextHTML": "

Much of the time one must admire Phil Gallie's

brass neck—he and his strange old colours are great.

We accept that the feared general breakdown as a result of the millennium bug has been largely taken care of, but because all such things are run by and for human beings, one can never be too sure. Henry McLeish touched on the matter of the biggest party in the world, which is a staggering thought, both metaphorically and literally. It could be a really big party.

On a visit to Strathclyde police last week, I spoke to the director of operations. He was confident that all contingencies have been considered in the emergency plans. I was particularly worried that if something bad happened in one area, reinforcements should be able to move from another area. He was confident that that will be possible and that most of the awful things that might occur have been considered.

Henry McLeish also mentioned the climate crises that we have from time to time. Some members might recall bits of their roofs taking off on boxing day last year—£1,000-worth of my roof took off. Several days passed before I could do anything about it—without recourse to emergency services.

My concern is that if there is a conjunction of any kind of electronic failure, really bad climatic conditions and the biggest party in the world in all the town centres throughout Scotland, the services could be severely overstretched. For example, some police forces, such as Strathclyde police, are daily 350 officers short of their normal roll.

In the past—although I am not going to rake over it too much—the Territorial Army has always been ready to help. As Ben Wallace mentioned, Donald Dewar made an issue of that last year. The TA has provided signals communication when phone lines have gone down, specialised transport to get in and out of flooded areas and specialised bulldozers and equipment when that has been required. The TA has now been almost halved, and a lot of that specialised equipment has gone. I was a little alarmed that the minister did not touch on the military association at all, until Ben Wallace talked about it.

The regular forces have their communications lined up for the period, as they normally do in their major functions, and territorial troops—especially communications troops—have been put on standby. I would like to hear, in the Executive's summing-up, what arrangements have been made. TA commanding officers are often appointed military liaison officers to counsel emergency planning committees. I hope that we will be given some indication of the extent to which military liaison officers have been associating with their counterparts in the respective councils to make contingency plans against the awesome prospect of the biggest party going wrong and the climate turning severe at the same time.

There has been talk of Henry McLeish's title— the man in the bunker. When Sam Galbraith was leaving the chamber, he made big-headed gestures towards Henry McLeish as well, as if he was going to be the big-headed man in the bunker. As he will be the man in silk on hogmanay, he should probably be the man in SILC for the purposes of this exercise. I hope that he is confident. I am sure he will do everything he can to ensure that, should anything go wrong, either because of the millennium bug or because of climatic adversity, there will be enough reserves to cope.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C711405", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27033, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 129.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 129.0, "ID": 27033, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Monteith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 192.0, "ContributionID": 711405, "EditedText": "Is it called the millennium dome because it is planned to be ready for 1 January 2001? Would tickets be sold if the Glasgow call centre was used?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is it called the millennium dome because it is planned to be ready for 1 January 2001? Would tickets be sold if the Glasgow call centre was used?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2068E171P304C711407", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27033, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 129.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 129.0, "ID": 27033, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stone, Jamie", "ID": 2068, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie Stone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Stone: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 196.0, "ContributionID": 711407, "EditedText": "Name them.", "EditedTextHTML": "Name them.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C711412", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27033, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 129.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 129.0, "ID": 27033, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 207.0, "ContributionID": 711412, "EditedText": "I accept the minister's comments on education and health. However, earlier on, I emphasised the massive cost involved—especially for private industry—in implementing measures to protect against the millennium bug. Can the minister give an overall figure on how much such measures have cost the Scottish Executive in protecting the health service, the education service, the police and fire services and so on against the millennium bug? Where precisely has that money come from? Can he assure us that it has not come out of main service areas?", "EditedTextHTML": "I accept the minister's comments on education and health. However, earlier on, I emphasised the massive cost involved—especially for private industry—in implementing measures to protect against the millennium bug. Can the minister give an overall figure on how much such measures have cost the Scottish Executive in protecting the health service, the education service, the police and fire services and so on against the millennium bug? Where precisely has that money come from? Can he assure us that it has not come out of main service areas?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C711413", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27033, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 129.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 129.0, "ID": 27033, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Angus MacKay: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 209.0, "ContributionID": 711413, "EditedText": "I do not have those figures immediately to hand, although I will be delighted to communicate with Mr Gallie about them. I am not sure what specific purpose it will serve, but I am more than happy to do so. I will also be happy to outline some of the benefits that have accrued from the exercise, because there have been some clear benefits for public and private agencies, beyond addressing the year 2000 problem. I will say a little more about that in a moment or two. The issue of independent assessment was raised in the debate. Responsible organisations, some of which have been mentioned today, have had assessors appointed that were the most appropriate to vet those organisations. For example, local authority assessment has been carried out by the Accounts Commission for Scotland, which is appropriate, because the commission has a series of statutory functions and has a relationship with local authorities. The arrangement allows for an informed approach to vetting the business-critical systems of the local authorities. For the electricity industry, the Department of Trade and Industry appointed the Office of Gas and Electricity Markets. For police forces, the Scottish Executive appointed Her Majesty's inspectorate of constabulary. Those bodies have track records of understanding and vetting the business of the organisations that they are assessing. They were given the remit of assessing the business-critical systems.", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not have those figures immediately to hand, although I will be delighted to communicate with Mr Gallie about them. I am not sure what specific purpose it will serve, but I am more than happy to do so. I will also be happy to outline some of the benefits that have accrued from the exercise, because there have been some clear benefits for public and private agencies, beyond addressing the year 2000 problem. I will say a little more about that in a moment or two.

The issue of independent assessment was raised in the debate. Responsible organisations, some of which have been mentioned today, have had assessors appointed that were the most appropriate to vet those organisations. For example, local authority assessment has been carried out by the Accounts Commission for Scotland, which is appropriate, because the commission has a series of statutory functions and has a relationship with local authorities. The arrangement allows for an informed approach to vetting the business-critical systems of the local authorities.

For the electricity industry, the Department of Trade and Industry appointed the Office of Gas and Electricity Markets. For police forces, the Scottish Executive appointed Her Majesty's inspectorate of constabulary. Those bodies have track records of understanding and vetting the business of the organisations that they are assessing. They were given the remit of assessing the business-critical systems.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C711409", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27033, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 129.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 129.0, "ID": 27033, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Justice (Angus MacKay): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 201.0, "ContributionID": 711409, "EditedText": "Despite my expectations, we have had an interesting debate this morning. We opened with some knockabout from Mr Swinney on the theme of \"Dad's Army\", to which I will return. We had mention of anoraks. We have had the spectacle of Mr Gallie being unable to distinguish between Kenny MacAskill and Fergus Ewing, which I found highly entertaining, although I do not think that Mr MacAskill found it quite so amusing. We had speculation on the colour blue signifying dependability in a code for disaster. While the Executive has responsibility for planning for the millennium and avoiding associated disasters, I do not think that we would be willing to take responsibility for disasters on the scale of that which befell the Conservative party in 1997. Mr Gallie might take that to heart as he reflects on the importance of the colour blue, to which I will return later on. There are a number of characters in \"Dad's Army\" that Mr Swinney did not link with anyone in the chamber, but Mr Ewing's contribution put me in mind of Mr Hodges, the genial grocer with the ARP hat, whose purpose in the programme seemed to be to rush about and complain a lot, to no evident purpose. A further point to make about Mr Ewing's speech is that, although he disparaged the millennium dome in graphic terms, he should be gracious enough to acknowledge that it provided substantial padding to his otherwise rather thin closing speech. If no other purpose is being served by the dome, it has at least contributed to Mr Ewing's speech. Mr McLeish outlined succinctly the reports thatwe have had from the various organisations responsible for providing Scotland's essential services. They are ready to deliver the Government's promise of business as usual over the millennium period. That is positive news, and I hope that all members have been reassured by the scope and depth of the assessment procedure that has been outlined. Notwithstanding my opening comments, I would genuinely like to thank all members for this morning's discussion and for the points that were raised. I will return to the subject of the quality and length of the debate later on. I also hope that members will forgive me for not addressing every single point that was raised during the debate. I will be happy to write to members on any points that I omit, and I am sure that Mr McLeish will also be happy to answer any points that are raised between now and the millennium, and beyond. Before I refer to some of the specific matters that have been raised, it would be useful to recap some of the general themes that have informed the debate. First, it is worth summing up the scale of the undertaking that is now nearing completion. Since the national infrastructure forum was established in 1998, the work of over 10,000 organisations that are responsible for the delivery of essential services throughout the United Kingdom has been assessed. Blue status—to which I shall return—has been granted only when the most comprehensive investigation and testing of service provision have been undertaken; it includes an audit of how organisations have prepared for the millennium period and of the contingency plans in place to cope with any problems that might occur. Those points are worth stressing. Each organisation has been independently assessed. That subject was raised during the debate, and I will return to it in a moment. It is true to say that no other country has matched the breadth, scope and rigour of the assessment that we have carried out to a common standard. That has been acknowledged by many of the other countries that are thought to be at the forefront of Y2K testing, including the United States and Holland. I am sure that members will join me in praising the spirit of co-operation and information sharing that has characterised the process thus far. Scotland is inextricably linked with the wider UK, Europe and the rest of the world, and the reports that we have received reflect only the UK situation. Some services, however, such as telecommunications, transport, finance, post and weather forecasting are also dependent on activities outside the United Kingdom. Those areas are, by definition, outwith the remit of this Parliament, and in some cases that of Westminster; they are also those which have been highlighted in recent press stories. I would like to take the opportunity to reassure members that organisations that have significant international links will continue to collaborate with and monitor the readiness of their international partners as part of their Y2K programmes and prudent business practice. Those are the very issues that contingency plans need to address. At this point, it is worth pausing to observe that UK-wide arrangements take account of the rolling period in which the year 2000 changeover takes place. New Zealand is the first place that will experience the year 2000 changeover. In advance of the date change taking place in this country, there will be direct liaison and communication with other countries as the year 2000 starts to affect— or not—business-critical systems throughout their public and private infrastructures. That should provide us with additional reassurance that any unforeseen problems can be picked up as they impact in other countries in advance of hitting the United Kingdom. I now want to refer to some of the matters raised this morning. Members made several useful and important points, which I shall address in no particular order of importance. The issue of our nuclear deterrent was raised earlier. The nuclear deterrent has been thoroughly checked. The Ministry of Defence is absolutely clear that there is no risk of the nuclear deterrent being used or detonated accidentally through computer failure. Beyond that, the United Kingdom has been assured by all other states with nuclear weapons that their nuclear weapons will be unaffected by the year 2000 problem. In addition, they have also given assurances that robust command and control arrangements and contingency plans are in place. I hope that that addresses as clearly as possible the concern raised in the debate. Nicola Sturgeon raised some specific points on schools. School computers have all been secured and checked. I discussed the matter with my colleague, the Deputy Minister for Children and Education, immediately after Nicola Sturgeon raised the point. Nicola's comments took statements made by the minister out of context. He was speaking at a conference at Liberton High School—I am delighted about that, because the school is in my constituency—about the need finally to double-check the systems that are not under the direct control of the school, but which could have an impact upon it. That was the last in a long series of steps taken over the past two years; it was not the beginning of a programme. That demonstrates the comprehensive nature of our approach. We are not coming late to the subject and are leaving nothing to chance.", "EditedTextHTML": "Despite my expectations, we have had an interesting debate this morning. We opened with some knockabout from Mr Swinney on the theme of \"Dad's Army\", to which I will return. We had mention of anoraks. We have had the spectacle of Mr Gallie being unable to distinguish between Kenny MacAskill and Fergus Ewing, which I found highly entertaining, although I do not think that Mr MacAskill found it quite so amusing.

We had speculation on the colour blue signifying dependability in a code for disaster. While the Executive has responsibility for planning for the millennium and avoiding associated disasters, I do not think that we would be willing to take responsibility for disasters on the scale of that which befell the Conservative party in 1997. Mr Gallie might take that to heart as he reflects on the importance of the colour blue, to which I will return later on.

There are a number of characters in \"Dad's Army\" that Mr Swinney did not link with anyone in the chamber, but Mr Ewing's contribution put me in mind of Mr Hodges, the genial grocer with the ARP hat, whose purpose in the programme seemed to be to rush about and complain a lot, to no evident purpose. A further point to make about Mr Ewing's speech is that, although he disparaged the millennium dome in graphic terms, he should be gracious enough to acknowledge that it provided substantial padding to his otherwise rather thin closing speech. If no other purpose is being served by the dome, it has at least contributed to Mr Ewing's speech.

Mr McLeish outlined succinctly the reports that

we have had from the various organisations responsible for providing Scotland's essential services. They are ready to deliver the Government's promise of business as usual over the millennium period. That is positive news, and I hope that all members have been reassured by the scope and depth of the assessment procedure that has been outlined. Notwithstanding my opening comments, I would genuinely like to thank all members for this morning's discussion and for the points that were raised. I will return to the subject of the quality and length of the debate later on.

I also hope that members will forgive me for not addressing every single point that was raised during the debate. I will be happy to write to members on any points that I omit, and I am sure that Mr McLeish will also be happy to answer any points that are raised between now and the millennium, and beyond.

Before I refer to some of the specific matters that have been raised, it would be useful to recap some of the general themes that have informed the debate. First, it is worth summing up the scale of the undertaking that is now nearing completion. Since the national infrastructure forum was established in 1998, the work of over 10,000 organisations that are responsible for the delivery of essential services throughout the United Kingdom has been assessed. Blue status—to which I shall return—has been granted only when the most comprehensive investigation and testing of service provision have been undertaken; it includes an audit of how organisations have prepared for the millennium period and of the contingency plans in place to cope with any problems that might occur. Those points are worth stressing. Each organisation has been independently assessed. That subject was raised during the debate, and I will return to it in a moment.

It is true to say that no other country has matched the breadth, scope and rigour of the assessment that we have carried out to a common standard. That has been acknowledged by many of the other countries that are thought to be at the forefront of Y2K testing, including the United States and Holland. I am sure that members will join me in praising the spirit of co-operation and information sharing that has characterised the process thus far.

Scotland is inextricably linked with the wider UK, Europe and the rest of the world, and the reports that we have received reflect only the UK situation. Some services, however, such as telecommunications, transport, finance, post and weather forecasting are also dependent on activities outside the United Kingdom. Those areas are, by definition, outwith the remit of this

Parliament, and in some cases that of Westminster; they are also those which have been highlighted in recent press stories.

I would like to take the opportunity to reassure members that organisations that have significant international links will continue to collaborate with and monitor the readiness of their international partners as part of their Y2K programmes and prudent business practice. Those are the very issues that contingency plans need to address.

At this point, it is worth pausing to observe that UK-wide arrangements take account of the rolling period in which the year 2000 changeover takes place. New Zealand is the first place that will experience the year 2000 changeover. In advance of the date change taking place in this country, there will be direct liaison and communication with other countries as the year 2000 starts to affect— or not—business-critical systems throughout their public and private infrastructures. That should provide us with additional reassurance that any unforeseen problems can be picked up as they impact in other countries in advance of hitting the United Kingdom.

I now want to refer to some of the matters raised this morning. Members made several useful and important points, which I shall address in no particular order of importance. The issue of our nuclear deterrent was raised earlier. The nuclear deterrent has been thoroughly checked. The Ministry of Defence is absolutely clear that there is no risk of the nuclear deterrent being used or detonated accidentally through computer failure. Beyond that, the United Kingdom has been assured by all other states with nuclear weapons that their nuclear weapons will be unaffected by the year 2000 problem. In addition, they have also given assurances that robust command and control arrangements and contingency plans are in place. I hope that that addresses as clearly as possible the concern raised in the debate.

Nicola Sturgeon raised some specific points on schools. School computers have all been secured and checked. I discussed the matter with my colleague, the Deputy Minister for Children and Education, immediately after Nicola Sturgeon raised the point. Nicola's comments took statements made by the minister out of context. He was speaking at a conference at Liberton High School—I am delighted about that, because the school is in my constituency—about the need finally to double-check the systems that are not under the direct control of the school, but which could have an impact upon it. That was the last in a long series of steps taken over the past two years; it was not the beginning of a programme.

That demonstrates the comprehensive nature of our approach. We are not coming late to the subject and are leaving nothing to chance.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C711417", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27033, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 129.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 129.0, "ID": 27033, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Angus MacKay: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 217.0, "ContributionID": 711417, "EditedText": "Scottish ministers are absolutely responsible for ensuring that the Scottish Executive moves forward with the utmost preparedness for foreseeable risks and that such preparations happen with due consideration of the assessment of business-critical systems. We have done that. I do not see how any reasonable person could articulate an alternative approach.", "EditedTextHTML": "Scottish ministers are absolutely responsible for ensuring that the Scottish Executive moves forward with the utmost preparedness for foreseeable risks and that such preparations happen with due consideration of the assessment of business-critical systems. We have done that. I do not see how any reasonable person could articulate an alternative approach.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C711419", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27033, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 129.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 129.0, "ID": 27033, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Angus MacKay: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 221.0, "ContributionID": 711419, "EditedText": "If the member wants to comment on that, he can do so later. I want to make a further point about code blue. Code blue is a mark of robustness for the responsible body. For example, Caledonian MacBrayne received an amber rating because of the failure of one winch on one ferry. Although a compliance certificate was obtained, blue status was not given until further tests were completed. In all circumstances, the responsible testing authorities have been asked to ensure that blue status can be given only once compliance is fully achieved. There are stages to the vetting process.", "EditedTextHTML": "If the member wants to comment on that, he can do so later.

I want to make a further point about code blue. Code blue is a mark of robustness for the responsible body. For example, Caledonian MacBrayne received an amber rating because of the failure of one winch on one ferry. Although a compliance certificate was obtained, blue status was not given until further tests were completed. In all circumstances, the responsible testing authorities have been asked to ensure that blue status can be given only once compliance is fully achieved. There are stages to the vetting process.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2066E64P88C711422", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27033, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 129.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 129.0, "ID": 27033, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McGrigor, Jamie", "ID": 2066, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie McGrigor", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Jamie McGrigor (Highlands and Islands) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 227.0, "ContributionID": 711422, "EditedText": "Could the minister give us an assurance about what his party is doing to ensure that the poor people of France can eat Scotch beef at their millennium parties?", "EditedTextHTML": "Could the minister give us an assurance about what his party is doing to ensure that the poor people of France can eat Scotch beef at their millennium parties?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C711424", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27034, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 231.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 231.0, "ID": 27034, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Patricia Ferguson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 232.0, "ContributionID": 711424, "EditedText": "The next item of business is consideration of business motion S1M-266, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, setting out a revised business programme. Before asking Mr McCabe to move the motion, I advise members that the Presiding Officer has accepted a request from the Executive for a ministerial statement this afternoon on temporary sheriffs. The statement will be made immediately after open question time.", "EditedTextHTML": "The next item of business is consideration of business motion S1M-266, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, setting out a revised business programme.

Before asking Mr McCabe to move the motion, I advise members that the Presiding Officer has accepted a request from the Executive for a ministerial statement this afternoon on temporary sheriffs. The statement will be made immediately after open question time.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711426", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27034, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 231.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 231.0, "ID": 27034, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 235.0, "ContributionID": 711426, "EditedText": "That the Parliament agrees the following programme of business—", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament agrees the following programme of business—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711427", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27034, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 231.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 231.0, "ID": 27034, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 236.0, "ContributionID": 711427, "EditedText": "Wednesday 17 November 1999", "EditedTextHTML": "Wednesday 17 November 1999

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711429", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27034, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 231.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 231.0, "ID": 27034, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 238.0, "ContributionID": 711429, "EditedText": "5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business Debate on the subject of S1M-219 Phil Gallie: Proof of Age Card Scheme", "EditedTextHTML": "5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business Debate on the subject of S1M-219 Phil Gallie: Proof of Age Card Scheme

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711431", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27034, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 231.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 231.0, "ID": 27034, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 240.0, "ContributionID": 711431, "EditedText": "9.30 am Ministerial Statement on Publication of draft Ethical Standards in Public Life Bill followed by Debate on an Executive motion on the Modernisation of the Scottish Economy followed by Business Motion followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions", "EditedTextHTML": "9.30 am Ministerial Statement on Publication of draft Ethical Standards in Public Life Bill followed by Debate on an Executive motion on the Modernisation of the Scottish Economy followed by Business Motion followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711435", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27034, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 231.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 231.0, "ID": 27034, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 244.0, "ContributionID": 711435, "EditedText": "2.30 pm Time for Reflection followed by Debate on an Executive motion on Social Inclusion Targets followed by, no later than 3.45 pm Debate on an Executive motion on Land Reform followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions", "EditedTextHTML": "2.30 pm Time for Reflection followed by Debate on an Executive motion on Social Inclusion Targets followed by, no later than 3.45 pm Debate on an Executive motion on Land Reform followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711437", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27034, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 231.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 231.0, "ID": 27034, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 246.0, "ContributionID": 711437, "EditedText": "Thursday 25 November 1999", "EditedTextHTML": "Thursday 25 November 1999

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C711441", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27034, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 231.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 231.0, "ID": 27034, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Patricia Ferguson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 250.0, "ContributionID": 711441, "EditedText": "No member has asked to speak against the motion, so I shall put the question. The question is, that business motion S1M-266 be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "No member has asked to speak against the motion, so I shall put the question.

The question is, that business motion S1M-266 be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C711443", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Subordinate Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27035, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 253.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 253.0, "ID": 27035, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 254.0, "ContributionID": 711443, "EditedText": "The next item of business is consideration of Parliamentary Bureau motions. I ask Mr McCabe to move motion S1M-257 on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau.", "EditedTextHTML": "The next item of business is consideration of Parliamentary Bureau motions. I ask Mr McCabe to move motion S1M-257 on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711449", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Subordinate Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27035, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 253.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 253.0, "ID": 27035, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 263.0, "ContributionID": 711449, "EditedText": "Before we begin, I inform the Parliament that, following the court decision this morning, I have accepted an emergency statement on the subject of temporary sheriffs.", "EditedTextHTML": "Before we begin, I inform the Parliament that, following the court decision this morning, I have accepted an emergency statement on the subject of temporary sheriffs.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2010E221P512C711455", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27036, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 265.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27037, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 266.0, "QuestionHeading": "Domestic Violence Service Development Fund", "QuestionHeadingID": 27039, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 274.0, "DisplayOrder": 274.0, "ID": 27039, "ParentID": 27037 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Paterson, Gil", "ID": 2010, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Gil Paterson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Paterson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 279.0, "ContributionID": 711455, "EditedText": "I do not want to take anything away from what the minister is doing in this area— £3 million is very welcome. Would she consider putting resources into some preventive methods, simply because prevention, in many cases, is much better than cure?", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not want to take anything away from what the minister is doing in this area— £3 million is very welcome. Would she consider putting resources into some preventive methods, simply because prevention, in many cases, is much better than cure?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2228E151P202C711459", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27036, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 265.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27037, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 266.0, "QuestionHeading": "Devolution", "QuestionHeadingID": 27040, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 283.0, "DisplayOrder": 283.0, "ID": 27040, "ParentID": 27037 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McCabe, Tom", "ID": 2228, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Tom McCabe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McCabe: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 288.0, "ContributionID": 711459, "EditedText": "The transfer of functions was primarily concerned with national security. I assure Lord James that the Association of Chief Police Officers (Scotland), Government departments and all relevant agencies were consulted on that transfer.", "EditedTextHTML": "The transfer of functions was primarily concerned with national security. I assure Lord James that the Association of Chief Police Officers (Scotland), Government departments and all relevant agencies were consulted on that transfer.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C711462", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27036, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 265.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27037, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 266.0, "QuestionHeading": "Ambulance Staff", "QuestionHeadingID": 27041, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 290.0, "DisplayOrder": 290.0, "ID": 27041, "ParentID": 27037 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 295.0, "ContributionID": 711462, "EditedText": "I can give an absolute assurance that I am committed to ensuring that the safety of ambulance personnel is at all times secured. As the member will be aware, steps have been taken in west central Scotland in the light of recent incidents. I am also working with a range of individuals and organisations to see how safety for workers in the Scottish Ambulance Service and throughout the NHS can be improved.", "EditedTextHTML": "I can give an absolute assurance that I am committed to ensuring that the safety of ambulance personnel is at all times secured. As the member will be aware, steps have been taken in west central Scotland in the light of recent incidents. I am also working with a range of individuals and organisations to see how safety for workers in the Scottish Ambulance Service and throughout the NHS can be improved.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711465", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27036, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 265.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27037, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 266.0, "QuestionHeading": "Rural Economy", "QuestionHeadingID": 27042, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 297.0, "DisplayOrder": 297.0, "ID": 27042, "ParentID": 27037 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 302.0, "ContributionID": 711465, "EditedText": "Hear, hear.", "EditedTextHTML": "Hear, hear.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C711466", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27036, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 265.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27037, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 266.0, "QuestionHeading": "Rural Economy", "QuestionHeadingID": 27042, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 297.0, "DisplayOrder": 297.0, "ID": 27042, "ParentID": 27037 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ross Finnie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 304.0, "ContributionID": 711466, "EditedText": "First, I want to put the matter into perspective. Laughter. It is not a laughing matter; it is a serious issue. By the end of last year, 4,598 farmers had benefited from the agricultural business investment scheme and some £14.5 million had been expended on it. The total amount allocated to the scheme under the original objective 1 Highlands and Islands agricultural programme was £23 million. In no year until now have there been any more than £4.5 million-worth of applications. Since August of this year, we have received 3,900 applications, totalling £22.6 million. Although I am now aware of the letter sent by Lord Sewel, I was not privy to it and I cannot determine the basis on which he gave that undertaking. I am now faced with a programme where, under HIAP, I had £1.2 million available and I have now received £22.6 million-worth of applications. What I am trying to do first of all is to take—", "EditedTextHTML": "First, I want to put the matter into perspective. [Laughter.] It is not a laughing matter; it is a serious issue. By the end of last year, 4,598 farmers had benefited from the agricultural business investment scheme and some £14.5

million had been expended on it. The total amount allocated to the scheme under the original objective 1 Highlands and Islands agricultural programme was £23 million. In no year until now have there been any more than £4.5 million-worth of applications. Since August of this year, we have received 3,900 applications, totalling £22.6 million.

Although I am now aware of the letter sent by Lord Sewel, I was not privy to it and I cannot determine the basis on which he gave that undertaking. I am now faced with a programme where, under HIAP, I had £1.2 million available and I have now received £22.6 million-worth of applications. What I am trying to do first of all is to take—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1821E295P538C711469", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27036, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 265.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27037, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 266.0, "QuestionHeading": "Millan Commission", "QuestionHeadingID": 27043, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 310.0, "DisplayOrder": 310.0, "ID": 27043, "ParentID": 27037 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Mrs Margaret", "ID": 1821, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Moray" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "6. Mrs Margaret Ewing (Moray) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 311.0, "ContributionID": 711469, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive which organisations have already given evidence to the Millan commission and on how many occasions the commission has met. (S1O-551) The Deputy Minister for Community Care (Iain Gray): I understand that the full committee reviewing the Mental Health (Scotland) Act 1984 has met seven times and has received written submissions from 130 organisations in Scotland in response to a consultation document that it published in April. In addition, more than 160 responses have so far been made to a leaflet issued by the committee, which was particularly designed to obtain the views of users and carers on mental health legislation.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive which organisations have already given evidence to the Millan commission and on how many occasions the commission has met. (S1O-551) The Deputy Minister for Community Care (Iain Gray): I understand that the full committee reviewing the Mental Health (Scotland) Act 1984 has met seven times and has received written submissions from 130 organisations in Scotland in response to a consultation document that it published in April. In addition, more than 160 responses have so far been made to a leaflet issued by the committee, which was particularly designed to obtain the views of users and carers on mental health legislation.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C711474", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27036, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 265.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27037, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 266.0, "QuestionHeading": "Residential Property (Surveys)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27044, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "DisplayOrder": 317.0, "ID": 27044, "ParentID": 27037 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 322.0, "ContributionID": 711474, "EditedText": "It would, of course, be unacceptable to rely on a single commercial concern. We expect that a wide variety of firms will come up with solutions to the problem of multiple surveys.", "EditedTextHTML": "It would, of course, be unacceptable to rely on a single commercial concern. We expect that a wide variety of firms will come up with solutions to the problem of multiple surveys.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C711480", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27036, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 265.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27037, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 266.0, "QuestionHeading": "Parliamentary Questions", "QuestionHeadingID": 27046, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 333.0, "DisplayOrder": 333.0, "ID": 27046, "ParentID": 27037 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan (Falkirk West): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 336.0, "ContributionID": 711480, "EditedText": "Answer the question.", "EditedTextHTML": "Answer the question.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2228E151P202C711481", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27036, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 265.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27037, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 266.0, "QuestionHeading": "Parliamentary Questions", "QuestionHeadingID": 27046, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 333.0, "DisplayOrder": 333.0, "ID": 27046, "ParentID": 27037 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McCabe, Tom", "ID": 2228, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Tom McCabe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McCabe: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 338.0, "ContributionID": 711481, "EditedText": "Ill-considered questions place a strain on the public purse and lead to a deterioration of service to other members.", "EditedTextHTML": "Ill-considered questions place a strain on the public purse and lead to a deterioration of service to other members.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711484", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27036, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 265.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27037, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 266.0, "QuestionHeading": "Parliamentary Questions", "QuestionHeadingID": 27046, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 333.0, "DisplayOrder": 333.0, "ID": 27046, "ParentID": 27037 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 344.0, "ContributionID": 711484, "EditedText": "Mr Stone—", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Stone—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1811E172P455C711490", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27036, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 265.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27037, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 266.0, "QuestionHeading": "Long-Term Care", "QuestionHeadingID": 27047, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 354.0, "DisplayOrder": 354.0, "ID": 27047, "ParentID": 27037 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ullrich, Kay", "ID": 1811, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kay Ullrich", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Kay Ullrich: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 357.0, "ContributionID": 711490, "EditedText": "Thank you. Given that virtually all those people are in acute NHS beds awaiting funding packages from local authorities, and local authorities claim that they do not have the funds needed, will the minister tell us what steps he is taking to ensure that the necessary funding is put in place to end not only the blocking of the acute beds but to ensure that our frail elderly get the appropriate care that they desperately need?", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you. Given that virtually all those people are in acute NHS beds awaiting funding packages from local authorities, and local authorities claim that they do not have the funds needed, will the minister tell us what steps he is taking to ensure that the necessary funding is put in place to end not only the blocking of the acute beds but to ensure that our frail elderly get the appropriate care that they desperately need?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1950E155P451C711501", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27036, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 265.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27037, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 266.0, "QuestionHeading": "Ministry of Defence Contracts", "QuestionHeadingID": 27049, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 376.0, "DisplayOrder": 376.0, "ID": 27049, "ParentID": 27037 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Campbell, Colin", "ID": 1950, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Colin Campbell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Colin Campbell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 381.0, "ContributionID": 711501, "EditedText": "In the light of that answer, will the minister explain why, in the most recent financial year, Scotland—which has 8.7 per cent of the UK population—received only 0.42 per cent of MOD research contracts and only 5.7 per cent of MOD defence contracts, resulting in huge losses to the Scottish economy?", "EditedTextHTML": "In the light of that answer, will the minister explain why, in the most recent financial year, Scotland—which has 8.7 per cent of the UK population—received only 0.42 per cent of MOD research contracts and only 5.7 per cent of MOD defence contracts, resulting in huge losses to the Scottish economy?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2154E194P299C711502", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27036, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 265.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27037, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 266.0, "QuestionHeading": "Ministry of Defence Contracts", "QuestionHeadingID": 27049, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 376.0, "DisplayOrder": 376.0, "ID": 27049, "ParentID": 27037 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stephen, Nicol", "ID": 2154, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Nicol Stephen", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicol Stephen: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 383.0, "ContributionID": 711502, "EditedText": "Colin Campbell quotes selective statistics. On the basis of the most recent figures available, total defence expenditure in Scotland— approximately £1.9 billion—supports 55,000 jobs directly and indirectly. Clearly, defence expenditure is substantial and important to our economy. UK Government figures for 1997-98 show that the number of people who are employed in Scotland as a result of defence expenditure on equipment contracts is proportionately the same as that for the whole of the UK. Of course, current SNP policy would ensure that large chunks of defence spending would come to a halt overnight, with the loss of thousands of Scottish jobs.", "EditedTextHTML": "Colin Campbell quotes selective statistics. On the basis of the most recent figures available, total defence expenditure in Scotland— approximately £1.9 billion—supports 55,000 jobs directly and indirectly. Clearly, defence expenditure is substantial and important to our economy. UK Government figures for 1997-98 show that the number of people who are employed in Scotland as a result of defence expenditure on equipment contracts is proportionately the same as that for the whole of the UK. Of course, current SNP policy would ensure that large chunks of defence spending would come to a halt overnight, with the loss of thousands of Scottish jobs.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1950E155P451C711503", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27036, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 265.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27037, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 266.0, "QuestionHeading": "Ministry of Defence Contracts", "QuestionHeadingID": 27049, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 376.0, "DisplayOrder": 376.0, "ID": 27049, "ParentID": 27037 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Campbell, Colin", "ID": 1950, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Colin Campbell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Colin Campbell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 385.0, "ContributionID": 711503, "EditedText": "The minister has failed completely to answer my specific question on contracts.", "EditedTextHTML": "The minister has failed completely to answer my specific question on contracts.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1985E207P501C711515", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27036, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 265.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27037, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 266.0, "QuestionHeading": "Digital Television", "QuestionHeadingID": 27053, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 410.0, "DisplayOrder": 410.0, "ID": 27053, "ParentID": 27037 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hamilton, Mr Duncan", "ID": 1985, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Hamilton: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 413.0, "ContributionID": 711515, "EditedText": "That was not the question. At those meetings, was the minister made aware of the UK Government's policy of switching from analogue transmission to digital transmission the moment that the majority of the United Kingdom— not Scotland but the United Kingdom—can be reached by digital television? Is the minister aware that that could create a digital desert in the Highlands and Islands, where the coverage of digital television is not extended? Will he guarantee that there will be no move to digital television until there is blanket coverage in the Highlands and Islands, as elsewhere in the United Kingdom?", "EditedTextHTML": "That was not the question. At those meetings, was the minister made aware of the UK Government's policy of switching from analogue transmission to digital transmission the moment that the majority of the United Kingdom— not Scotland but the United Kingdom—can be reached by digital television? Is the minister aware that that could create a digital desert in the Highlands and Islands, where the coverage of digital television is not extended? Will he guarantee that there will be no move to digital television until there is blanket coverage in the Highlands and Islands, as elsewhere in the United Kingdom?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1823E145P193C711520", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27036, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 265.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27037, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 266.0, "QuestionHeading": "Health Boards", "QuestionHeadingID": 27054, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 421.0, "DisplayOrder": 421.0, "ID": 27054, "ParentID": 27037 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jamieson, Margaret", "ID": 1823, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Kilmarnock and Loudoun" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Jamieson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Margaret Jamieson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 424.0, "ContributionID": 711520, "EditedText": "Will the minister assure me that health boards will be encouraged to demonstrate best value, openness and accountability in the planning of services for the populations that we represent?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister assure me that health boards will be encouraged to demonstrate best value, openness and accountability in the planning of services for the populations that we represent?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2118E157P454C711531", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27055, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 428.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27056, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 429.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meeting)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27057, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 430.0, "DisplayOrder": 430.0, "ID": 27057, "ParentID": 27056 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Quinan, Mr Lloyd", "ID": 2118, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lloyd Quinan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Lloyd Quinan (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 449.0, "ContributionID": 711531, "EditedText": "Does the First Minister agree that, today, it would be appropriate for us to recognise the work of Hamish Henderson in projecting Scotland as a progressive, forward-looking and inclusive nation, this being the 80th anniversary of his birth? Hamish Henderson was also a veteran of the north African and Italian campaigns.", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the First Minister agree that, today, it would be appropriate for us to recognise the work of Hamish Henderson in projecting Scotland as a progressive, forward-looking and inclusive nation, this being the 80th anniversary of his birth? Hamish Henderson was also a veteran of the north African and Italian campaigns.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C711532", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27055, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 428.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27056, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 429.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meeting)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27057, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 430.0, "DisplayOrder": 430.0, "ID": 27057, "ParentID": 27056 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 451.0, "ContributionID": 711532, "EditedText": "I am a great admirer of Hamish Henderson. He has written some great songs, and his \"Freedom Come Aa Ye\" is one of the most well known songs in Scotland. His influence has been widespread: I greatly value the work of the school of Scottish studies and the spread of academic work on Scottish culture through the universities. I will say to Lloyd Quinan—I am sure he will not resent this—that this is not a day for honouring one individual, no matter how worthy, but for paying tribute to an enormous number of people. I attended a ceremony in a railway station in Glasgow this morning. I stood in front of the memorial to victims of the first world war. The number of names was quite daunting. The experience was humbling and it is in that general spirit that we should approach armistice day.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am a great admirer of Hamish Henderson. He has written some great songs, and his \"Freedom Come Aa Ye\" is one of the most well known songs in Scotland. His influence has been widespread: I greatly value the work of the school of Scottish studies and the spread of academic work on Scottish culture through the universities.

I will say to Lloyd Quinan—I am sure he will not resent this—that this is not a day for honouring one individual, no matter how worthy, but for paying tribute to an enormous number of people. I attended a ceremony in a railway station in Glasgow this morning. I stood in front of the memorial to victims of the first world war. The number of names was quite daunting. The experience was humbling and it is in that general spirit that we should approach armistice day.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711534", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27055, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 428.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27056, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 429.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meeting)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27057, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 430.0, "DisplayOrder": 430.0, "ID": 27057, "ParentID": 27056 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 455.0, "ContributionID": 711534, "EditedText": "Surprise us, Mr Dewar.", "EditedTextHTML": "Surprise us, Mr Dewar.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1828E200P487C711540", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27055, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 428.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27056, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 429.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meeting)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27057, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 430.0, "DisplayOrder": 430.0, "ID": 27057, "ParentID": 27056 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacDonald, Margo", "ID": 1828, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margo MacDonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Margo MacDonald (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 467.0, "ContributionID": 711540, "EditedText": "Will the First Minister tell us whether, in his most recent—or indeed any—meeting with the Secretary of State for Scotland, John Reid told him why he will remove from the First Minister's powers and functions the ability to intercept telephone or mail communications? Instead of that ability residing with the First Minister, it has gone to the Home Secretary.", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the First Minister tell us whether, in his most recent—or indeed any—meeting with the Secretary of State for Scotland, John Reid told him why he will remove from the First Minister's powers and functions the ability to intercept telephone or mail communications? Instead of that ability residing with the First Minister, it has gone to the Home Secretary.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1873E89P171C711545", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27055, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 428.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27056, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 429.0, "QuestionHeading": "Local Government Act 1986", "QuestionHeadingID": 27058, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 27058, "ParentID": 27056 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jackson, Dr Sylvia", "ID": 1873, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Stirling" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sylvia Jackson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Sylvia Jackson (Stirling) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 478.0, "ContributionID": 711545, "EditedText": "Will the Scottish Executive—and in particular the Minister for Children and Education—make available to MSPs, as soon as possible, details of the guidelines that operate in relation to what is taught in our primary and secondary schools, as that should help to calm public fears in that area?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the Scottish Executive—and in particular the Minister for Children and Education—make available to MSPs, as soon as possible, details of the guidelines that operate in relation to what is taught in our primary and secondary schools, as that should help to calm public fears in that area?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C711546", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27055, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 428.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27056, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 429.0, "QuestionHeading": "Local Government Act 1986", "QuestionHeadingID": 27058, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 27058, "ParentID": 27056 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 480.0, "ContributionID": 711546, "EditedText": "We recognise that some parents may be alarmed at the prospect of homosexuality being promoted in our schools. They can rest assured that it is not the intention of the Executive actively to promote homosexuality. Removing the prohibition is not the same as active promotion. There is a continuing review of the five to 14 guidelines, which covers health education in general and existing guidance on more detailed matters. The repeal of section 2A would require a detailed examination of those resources, but it is unlikely to require wholesale change.", "EditedTextHTML": "We recognise that some parents may be alarmed at the prospect of homosexuality being promoted in our schools. They can rest assured that it is not the intention of the Executive actively to promote homosexuality. Removing the prohibition is not the same as active promotion. There is a continuing review of the five to 14 guidelines, which covers health education in general and existing guidance on more detailed matters. The repeal of section 2A would require a detailed examination of those resources, but it is unlikely to require wholesale change.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C711547", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27055, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 428.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27056, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 429.0, "QuestionHeading": "Local Government Act 1986", "QuestionHeadingID": 27058, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 27058, "ParentID": 27056 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Brian Monteith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 482.0, "ContributionID": 711547, "EditedText": "The minister talks of making change in terms of bringing equality. Will she tell me at what age she thinks sex education is appropriate? Should that be the same age at which homosexuality is instructed—not promoted, but instructed—in schools?", "EditedTextHTML": "The minister talks of making change in terms of bringing equality. Will she tell me at what age she thinks sex education is appropriate? Should that be the same age at which homosexuality is instructed—not promoted, but instructed—in schools?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C711548", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27055, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 428.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27056, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 429.0, "QuestionHeading": "Local Government Act 1986", "QuestionHeadingID": 27058, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 27058, "ParentID": 27056 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 484.0, "ContributionID": 711548, "EditedText": "There is an existing programme for sex education in the curriculum for five to 14year- olds. It is sensitive to the age and maturity of the pupils concerned. The Executive believes that it is wrong to make a legal distinction between the teaching of homosexuality and other sensitive topics that are well handled in schools.", "EditedTextHTML": "There is an existing programme for sex education in the curriculum for five to 14year- olds. It is sensitive to the age and maturity of the pupils concerned. The Executive believes that it is wrong to make a legal distinction between the teaching of homosexuality and other sensitive topics that are well handled in schools.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C711549", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27055, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 428.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27056, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 429.0, "QuestionHeading": "Local Government Act 1986", "QuestionHeadingID": 27058, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 27058, "ParentID": 27056 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan (Falkirk West): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 486.0, "ContributionID": 711549, "EditedText": "I wish to raise a point of order arising from Tom McCabe's non- reply to Jamie Stone's question—number 9. Presiding Officer, can you use your influence to ensure that we get timely replies to written questions? I am still waiting on replies to several questions, some of which I lodged nearly 10 weeks ago. Do you agree, Presiding Officer, that this is simply not good enough? Part of this Parliament's job is to bring the Executive to account. The Executive should not be allowed to treat this Parliament with contempt by failing to answer our questions. Applause.", "EditedTextHTML": "I wish to raise a point of order arising from Tom McCabe's non- reply to Jamie Stone's question—number 9. Presiding Officer, can you use your influence to ensure that we get timely replies to written questions? I am still waiting on replies to several questions, some of which I lodged nearly 10 weeks ago. Do you agree, Presiding Officer, that this is simply not good enough? Part of this Parliament's job is to bring the Executive to account. The Executive should not be allowed to treat this Parliament with contempt by failing to answer our questions. [Applause.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711551", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Temporary Sheriffs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27059, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 490.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 490.0, "ID": 27059, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 491.0, "ContributionID": 711551, "EditedText": "Following this morning's court decision, I now call Jim Wallace to make a statement on temporary sheriffs.", "EditedTextHTML": "Following this morning's court decision, I now call Jim Wallace to make a statement on temporary sheriffs.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C711552", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Temporary Sheriffs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27059, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 490.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 490.0, "ID": 27059, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice (Mr Jim Wallace): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 494.0, "ContributionID": 711552, "EditedText": "I wish to make a statement about the decision issued this morning by the justiciary appeal court in Edinburgh. During a criminal trial in Linlithgow sheriff court this year, counsel for the defence challenged the right of the procurator fiscal to take a prosecution before temporary sheriff David Crowe on the ground that the temporary sheriff was not an \"independent and impartial tribunal\" within the meaning of article 6.1 of the European convention of human rights. The matter was referred to the justiciary appeal court for consideration. The opinions of Lords Cullen, Prosser and Reed were issued this morning. Each was agreed that the conditions under which temporary sheriffs are reappointed and can be removed are not compatible with the terms of article 6.1. In the cases which they had before them, their lordships ruled that the temporary sheriff should discharge the trial and remit the case to be heard afresh by a permanent sheriff. Two of the opinions are lengthy and we will need time to give them the full consideration they require. On a first reading, however, the main area of concern relates to the lack of security of tenure enjoyed by temporary sheriffs whose commissions are subject to annual review. The court was also concerned about the legislative provision under which the commission of a temporary sheriff can be recalled at any time by ministers. The court was at pains to point out that it saw no objection in principle to the Executive recommending appointments. Lord Reed observed that \"The manner of appointment of temporary sheriffs does not point towards any lack of judicial independence.\" Nor did the court suggest that ministers had been anything other than scrupulous in the operation of the temporary sheriff system. Equally, the court offered no criticism of the conduct of temporary sheriffs in carrying out their duties on the bench. The concern of the court was essentially with the lack of any institutional safeguards as to the security of tenure of a temporary sheriff and the perception that a temporary sheriff could be influenced by the fact that his commission required to be renewed annually. It was in 1966 that the United Kingdom granted the right of individual petition to the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg. Since that date, individuals have had the possibility of redress where they believe that their convention rights have been infringed. The system of temporary sheriffs has operated since 1971. No case has been taken to Strasbourg since then and successive Administrations have used temporary sheriffs to a greater or lesser degree to assist in the efficient operation of the sheriff courts. The decision that was announced this morning will require careful consideration. Pending detailed consideration of the judgment, I have asked the justice department to suspend the availability of temporary sheriffs for new civil or criminal business. The Lord Advocate will wish to consider the implications for the Procurator Fiscal Service, which prosecutes cases in the sheriff courts. He will issue guidance on this matter later today. One option the Lord Advocate will look at urgently is whether there should be an appeal to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council. A decision on that matter will be taken as soon as possible. Leave to take such an appeal was granted by the High Court this morning. I turn now to the immediate impact on the sheriff court programme. Responsibility for allocating individual sheriffs to cases rests with the sheriff principal of the sheriffdom. The sheriffs principal have already put in place a certain amount of contingency planning against the possibility that the appeal court decision might result in a change in the way temporary sheriffs can be used. I understand that sheriffs principal, assisted by the staff of the Scottish Court Service, have established a process for prioritising cases before the courts to ensure that the most urgent business can proceed. For example, cases involving criminal trials which might otherwise have run into difficulty over statutory time limits, and cases involving children and other vulnerable people, can expect to be given priority. I have every confidence that the sheriffs principal and the court staff will make strenuous efforts to minimise disruption. The precise arrangements will need to take account of local circumstances. The Scottish Executive has already taken steps to increase the number of permanent sheriffs available to the sheriff courts. Advertisements for 10 new permanent posts were placed a short time ago and applications have been received. In the next few weeks, names will be put forward to Her Majesty for appointment and we expect the new sheriffs to be operating from around the turn of the year. These new \"floating\" sheriffs will be used according to need throughout Scotland's sheriff courts. The Scottish Executive will consider whether theimplications of the High Court judgment point to any need for further strengthening of the complement of permanent sheriffs, which currently stands at 108. I shall make a further statement on that matter when we have had an opportunity to consider the judgments in full. The position of temporary judges in the Court of Session will also need to be addressed in the light of the decision. Like all other parts of the system, the supreme courts are considering the legal and practical effects of today's ruling.", "EditedTextHTML": "I wish to make a statement about the decision issued this morning by the justiciary appeal court in Edinburgh.

During a criminal trial in Linlithgow sheriff court this year, counsel for the defence challenged the right of the procurator fiscal to take a prosecution before temporary sheriff David Crowe on the ground that the temporary sheriff was not an \"independent and impartial tribunal\" within the meaning of article 6.1 of the European convention of human rights. The matter was referred to the justiciary appeal court for consideration.

The opinions of Lords Cullen, Prosser and Reed were issued this morning. Each was agreed that the conditions under which temporary sheriffs are reappointed and can be removed are not compatible with the terms of article 6.1. In the cases which they had before them, their lordships ruled that the temporary sheriff should discharge the trial and remit the case to be heard afresh by a permanent sheriff.

Two of the opinions are lengthy and we will need time to give them the full consideration they require. On a first reading, however, the main area of concern relates to the lack of security of tenure enjoyed by temporary sheriffs whose commissions are subject to annual review. The court was also concerned about the legislative provision under which the commission of a temporary sheriff can be recalled at any time by ministers.

The court was at pains to point out that it saw no objection in principle to the Executive recommending appointments. Lord Reed observed that

\"The manner of appointment of temporary sheriffs does not point towards any lack of judicial independence.\"

Nor did the court suggest that ministers had been anything other than scrupulous in the operation of the temporary sheriff system. Equally, the court offered no criticism of the conduct of temporary sheriffs in carrying out their duties on the bench. The concern of the court was essentially with the lack of any institutional safeguards as to the security of tenure of a temporary sheriff and the perception that a temporary sheriff could be influenced by the fact that his commission required to be renewed annually.

It was in 1966 that the United Kingdom granted the right of individual petition to the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg. Since that date, individuals have had the possibility of redress where they believe that their convention rights have been infringed. The system of temporary sheriffs has operated since 1971. No case has been taken to Strasbourg since then and successive Administrations have used temporary sheriffs to a greater or lesser degree to assist in the efficient operation of the sheriff courts.

The decision that was announced this morning will require careful consideration. Pending detailed consideration of the judgment, I have asked the justice department to suspend the availability of temporary sheriffs for new civil or criminal business. The Lord Advocate will wish to consider the implications for the Procurator Fiscal Service, which prosecutes cases in the sheriff courts. He will issue guidance on this matter later today. One option the Lord Advocate will look at urgently is whether there should be an appeal to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council. A decision on that matter will be taken as soon as possible. Leave to take such an appeal was granted by the High Court this morning.

I turn now to the immediate impact on the sheriff court programme. Responsibility for allocating individual sheriffs to cases rests with the sheriff principal of the sheriffdom. The sheriffs principal have already put in place a certain amount of contingency planning against the possibility that the appeal court decision might result in a change in the way temporary sheriffs can be used.

I understand that sheriffs principal, assisted by the staff of the Scottish Court Service, have established a process for prioritising cases before the courts to ensure that the most urgent business can proceed. For example, cases involving criminal trials which might otherwise have run into difficulty over statutory time limits, and cases involving children and other vulnerable people, can expect to be given priority. I have every confidence that the sheriffs principal and the court staff will make strenuous efforts to minimise disruption. The precise arrangements will need to take account of local circumstances.

The Scottish Executive has already taken steps to increase the number of permanent sheriffs available to the sheriff courts. Advertisements for 10 new permanent posts were placed a short time ago and applications have been received. In the next few weeks, names will be put forward to Her Majesty for appointment and we expect the new sheriffs to be operating from around the turn of the year. These new \"floating\" sheriffs will be used according to need throughout Scotland's sheriff courts.

The Scottish Executive will consider whether the

implications of the High Court judgment point to any need for further strengthening of the complement of permanent sheriffs, which currently stands at 108. I shall make a further statement on that matter when we have had an opportunity to consider the judgments in full.

The position of temporary judges in the Court of Session will also need to be addressed in the light of the decision. Like all other parts of the system, the supreme courts are considering the legal and practical effects of today's ruling.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C711555", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Temporary Sheriffs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27059, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 490.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 490.0, "ID": 27059, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie (Lothians) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 500.0, "ContributionID": 711555, "EditedText": "I thank the minister for making available a copy of his statement for our analysis in advance of his announcement to the Parliament. I have perhaps been somewhat critical of him in the past, but I must compliment him and his staff on his promptness in making his statement so soon after the issue of the lengthy 99-page court judgment this morning. I hope that other members of the Executive will follow his example of making statements to Parliament before doing so to the press. Members will recall that, on the day the present Lord Advocate was appointed in this chamber, I drew attention to the need to preserve the independence of his office from political pressures. If we look at this morning's judgment, we find that the starting point of the analysis draws attention to the fact that the Lord Advocate, on 23 May this year, became a member of the Scottish Executive under section 44 of the Scotland Act 1998. As that is the foundation for the judgment, does the minister think that if the Lord Advocate were not a member of the Scottish Executive, and not a member of the Cabinet, there would be no need to change the system of appointing temporary sheriffs, and that the most cost-effective solution to this matter would be to restore the full independence of the Lord Advocate's office, and to remove from him his role in the appointment of all judges, whether temporary or permanent? I also draw the Deputy First Minister's attention to a submission that was made to the court by the Solicitor General, which is referred to on page 31 of the judgment. In it, the Solicitor General described the Lord Advocate as being seen as \"less political\" than other ministers. I am sure that members who witnessed the Lord Advocate's performance in this chamber during debates on the Ruddle affair and the Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) Act 1999 will regard that submission as one that should be taken with a very large pinch of salt. Will the minister comment on the position of people who have been convicted by temporary sheriffs since 20 May? Will those cases be subject to review? Might the convictions fall and be set aside? A backlog of cases will inevitably build up while new permanent appointments are made. Will the minister assure us that he will make regular reports to the Parliament and to the Justice and Home Affairs Committee on the progress made in dealing with those cases?", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the minister for making available a copy of his statement for our analysis in advance of his announcement to the Parliament. I have perhaps been somewhat critical of him in the past, but I must compliment him and his staff on his promptness in making his statement so soon after the issue of the lengthy 99-page court judgment this morning. I hope that other members of the Executive will follow his example of making statements to Parliament before doing so to the press.

Members will recall that, on the day the present Lord Advocate was appointed in this chamber, I drew attention to the need to preserve the independence of his office from political pressures. If we look at this morning's judgment, we find that the starting point of the analysis draws attention to the fact that the Lord Advocate, on 23 May this year, became a member of the Scottish Executive under section 44 of the Scotland Act 1998. As that is the foundation for the judgment, does the minister think that if the Lord Advocate were not a member of the Scottish Executive, and not a member of the Cabinet, there would be no need to change the system of appointing temporary sheriffs, and that the most cost-effective solution to this matter would be to restore the full independence of the Lord Advocate's office, and to remove from him his role in the appointment of all judges, whether temporary or permanent?

I also draw the Deputy First Minister's attention to a submission that was made to the court by the Solicitor General, which is referred to on page 31 of the judgment. In it, the Solicitor General described the Lord Advocate as being seen as \"less political\" than other ministers. I am sure that members who witnessed the Lord Advocate's performance in this chamber during debates on the Ruddle affair and the Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) Act 1999 will regard that submission as one that should be taken with a very large pinch of salt.

Will the minister comment on the position of people who have been convicted by temporary sheriffs since 20 May? Will those cases be subject to review? Might the convictions fall and be set aside?

A backlog of cases will inevitably build up while new permanent appointments are made. Will the minister assure us that he will make regular reports to the Parliament and to the Justice and Home Affairs Committee on the progress made in dealing with those cases?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C711557", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Temporary Sheriffs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27059, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 490.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 490.0, "ID": 27059, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 504.0, "ContributionID": 711557, "EditedText": "I thank Mr McLetchie for his welcome for this statement. It is a good example of how devolution can work: a decision can be made in the courts in the morning and a statement can be made in Parliament in the afternoon. Mr McLetchie suggests that the simplest way of resolving this matter is simply to amend the Scotland Act 1998, but that would not resolve the matter. The point that he referred to in the judgment is the start of a narrative; it is not actually the issue on which the matter turned. It is important to point out that the court did not disapprove of the manner of appointment. In his judgment, Lord Reed said: \"I therefore conclude that the manner of appointment of temporary sheriffs does not point towards any lack of judicial independence.\" With regard to what Mr McLetchie said about the Lord Advocate, it is important to put on record that the Lord Justice-Clerk, Lord Cullen, said: \"There is no question whatever as to the integrity and fair mindedness with which the Lord Advocate has acted.\" Later in his judgment, Lord Reed said:\"I do not doubt that the system has been operated by successive Lord Advocates with integrity and sound judgment, free from political considerations, and with a careful regard to the need to respect judicial independence.\" It is important to put that on the record. The key issue here is the lack of security of tenure of those who have been appointed as temporary judges. Mr McLetchie raised an important point about people who have been convicted by temporary sheriffs since 20 May. I can, of course, understand if he has not picked up every point from reading a judgment of 99 pages, but there does not appear to be anything in any of the judgments that would give any guidance as to the position taken on that. It will be for each individual who has been convicted to get legal advice. Ultimately, it will be a matter for the appeal court, but the doors of Barlinnie are not swinging open tonight and no procession is coming out.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank Mr McLetchie for his welcome for this statement. It is a good example of how devolution can work: a decision can be made in the courts in the morning and a statement can be made in Parliament in the afternoon.

Mr McLetchie suggests that the simplest way of resolving this matter is simply to amend the Scotland Act 1998, but that would not resolve the matter. The point that he referred to in the judgment is the start of a narrative; it is not actually the issue on which the matter turned. It is important to point out that the court did not disapprove of the manner of appointment. In his judgment, Lord Reed said:

\"I therefore conclude that the manner of appointment of temporary sheriffs does not point towards any lack of judicial independence.\"

With regard to what Mr McLetchie said about the Lord Advocate, it is important to put on record that the Lord Justice-Clerk, Lord Cullen, said:

\"There is no question whatever as to the integrity and fair mindedness with which the Lord Advocate has acted.\"

Later in his judgment, Lord Reed said:

\"I do not doubt that the system has been operated by successive Lord Advocates with integrity and sound judgment, free from political considerations, and with a careful regard to the need to respect judicial independence.\"

It is important to put that on the record. The key issue here is the lack of security of tenure of those who have been appointed as temporary judges.

Mr McLetchie raised an important point about people who have been convicted by temporary sheriffs since 20 May. I can, of course, understand if he has not picked up every point from reading a judgment of 99 pages, but there does not appear to be anything in any of the judgments that would give any guidance as to the position taken on that. It will be for each individual who has been convicted to get legal advice. Ultimately, it will be a matter for the appeal court, but the doors of Barlinnie are not swinging open tonight and no procession is coming out.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C711563", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Temporary Sheriffs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27059, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 490.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 490.0, "ID": 27059, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 516.0, "ContributionID": 711563, "EditedText": "Although we clearly do not want a huge backlog of cases to develop, the Parliament will agree that sheriffs principal should give a high priority to criminal cases and cases involving children and other vulnerable persons. As for civil business, there will need to be careful consideration of the judgment. The obvious distinction to make is that civil cases do not involve the Lord Advocate or procurator fiscal. Civil business that has been started under temporary sheriffs may continue with agreement of the parties. However, the availability of temporary sheriffs for new civil business will also be suspended, pending detailed consideration of the judgment.", "EditedTextHTML": "Although we clearly do not want a huge backlog of cases to develop, the Parliament will agree that sheriffs principal should give a high priority to criminal cases and cases involving children and other vulnerable persons.

As for civil business, there will need to be careful consideration of the judgment. The obvious distinction to make is that civil cases do not involve the Lord Advocate or procurator fiscal. Civil business that has been started under temporary sheriffs may continue with agreement of the parties. However, the availability of temporary sheriffs for new civil business will also be suspended, pending detailed consideration of the judgment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C711565", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Temporary Sheriffs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27059, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 490.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 490.0, "ID": 27059, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 520.0, "ContributionID": 711565, "EditedText": "As Mrs Grahame has practised law, she will know that very often the most interesting and difficult legal cases are the ones that are not foreseen. If one could foresee such things with clarity, one would try to take steps to prevent them. We should not forget that since 1971, anyone tried by a temporary sheriff in Scotland has been able to take their case to the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg. No one has. The system has continued to work with temporary sheriffs being used to a greater or lesser extent. People have appeared before them and no one has questioned the system. According to the figures that I have, even since the publicity surrounding this case, only some 10 to 15 devolution minutes—triggered by a minute relating to the Scotland Act 1998—have been lodged, all of them, bar one, from Linlithgow sheriff court. Across vast tracts of Scotland, people have been working the system. However, that does not detract from the importance of the judgment in any way. We want to give it proper consideration. I forgot to say in reply to Mr McLetchie that we do, of course, want to bring Parliament up to date with the implications and consequences of the judgment once the different stages are reached, either through a statement in the chamber, in the Justice and Home Affairs Committee or in a written answer.", "EditedTextHTML": "As Mrs Grahame has practised law, she will know that very often the most interesting and difficult legal cases are the ones that are not foreseen. If one could foresee such things with clarity, one would try to take steps to prevent them.

We should not forget that since 1971, anyone tried by a temporary sheriff in Scotland has been able to take their case to the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg. No one has. The system has continued to work with temporary sheriffs being used to a greater or lesser extent. People have appeared before them and no one has questioned the system. According to the figures that I have, even since the publicity surrounding this case, only some 10 to 15 devolution minutes—triggered by a minute relating to the Scotland Act 1998—have been lodged, all of them, bar one, from Linlithgow sheriff court. Across vast tracts of Scotland, people have been working the system. However, that does not detract from the importance of the judgment in any way. We want to give it proper consideration.

I forgot to say in reply to Mr McLetchie that we do, of course, want to bring Parliament up to date with the implications and consequences of the judgment once the different stages are reached, either through a statement in the chamber, in the Justice and Home Affairs Committee or in a written answer.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C711569", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Temporary Sheriffs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27059, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 490.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 490.0, "ID": 27059, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 528.0, "ContributionID": 711569, "EditedText": "Where particular cases are heard is a matter for the Lord Advocate. I understand that it is his position that charges will not be downgraded. As I said to Ms Cunningham, the implications of the judgment for all parts of the Scottish justice system will have to be considered, including the implications for the justices of the peace and magistrates system in the district courts.", "EditedTextHTML": "Where particular cases are heard is a matter for the Lord Advocate. I understand that it is his position that charges will not be downgraded. As I said to Ms Cunningham, the implications of the judgment for all parts of the Scottish justice system will have to be considered, including the implications for the justices of the peace and magistrates system in the district courts.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711605", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27061, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 608.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 608.0, "ID": 27061, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 612.0, "ContributionID": 711605, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711608", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27061, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 608.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 608.0, "ID": 27061, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 616.0, "ContributionID": 711608, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711609", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27061, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 608.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 608.0, "ID": 27061, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 617.0, "ContributionID": 711609, "EditedText": "That the Parliament in consideration of the Maximum Number of Judges (Scotland) Order 1999 recommends that the draft Order in Council be approved.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament in consideration of the Maximum Number of Judges (Scotland) Order 1999 recommends that the draft Order in Council be approved.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C711576", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Subordinate Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27060, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 536.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 536.0, "ID": 27060, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 546.0, "ContributionID": 711576, "EditedText": "We, too, accept the draft order and everything that lies behind it. It is ironic that John Swinney complained yesterday that we had insufficient time for the European debate. At Westminster, six hours would be allowed for such a debate, whereas a statutory instrument such as this would whistle through in about half an hour. It is opportune that we are debating this order today, given the minister's announcement immediately before this debate. We have the opportunity to consider the three judges' decision on the temporary sheriffs; a question arises about whether the judges could gain some benefit from their decision. Will the European Court of Human Rights determine that we should examine that matter at a later date? Nothing would surprise me. The ECHR will certainly want to look at the temporary upgrading of sheriffs to the position of judge. The order allows for the appointment of five more judges. I agree with Roseanna Cunningham that that increase simply established the status quo. Four judges are going to the Lockerbie trial, Lord Cullen will head the Paddington inquiry and eight temporary judges are regularly in use. Those facts suggest that five further judges will not fulfil the overall requirement. Given the situation that has developed today with regard to the temporary sheriffs, the minister should consider increasing that number if possible. Like Ms Cunningham, I believe that that would have the support of everyone in the chamber. The establishment of the Scottish Parliament and the introduction of new legislation must be taken into consideration. Bills such as those on feudal tenure and on adults with incapacity may add to the burden of the courts. The bill on land reform that will be introduced in due course will certainly have that effect. There is a feeling that, all too often, cases that involve very serious charges—murder or serious assault, for example—against individuals are downgraded and passed to the lower courts, to save time, effort and perhaps costs in the higher courts. The minister will, no doubt, suggest that that would never happen, but I suggest that there is evidence that it might. When the minister examines this draft again, he should consider increasing the number of judges that is mentioned. That does not mean that we should automatically appoint that number. As he has said, that would provide room for manoeuvre. If more judges were needed, more could be appointed. Finally, regarding Ms Cunningham's point about appointment of judges, all parties in this chamber would welcome further debate on that issue.", "EditedTextHTML": "We, too, accept the draft order and everything that lies behind it. It is ironic that John Swinney complained yesterday that we had insufficient time for the European debate. At Westminster, six hours would be allowed for such a debate, whereas a statutory instrument such as this would whistle through in about half an hour.

It is opportune that we are debating this order today, given the minister's announcement immediately before this debate. We have the opportunity to consider the three judges' decision on the temporary sheriffs; a question arises about whether the judges could gain some benefit from their decision. Will the European Court of Human Rights determine that we should examine that matter at a later date? Nothing would surprise me. The ECHR will certainly want to look at the temporary upgrading of sheriffs to the position of judge.

The order allows for the appointment of five more judges. I agree with Roseanna Cunningham that that increase simply established the status quo. Four judges are going to the Lockerbie trial, Lord Cullen will head the Paddington inquiry and eight temporary judges are regularly in use. Those facts suggest that five further judges will not fulfil

the overall requirement. Given the situation that has developed today with regard to the temporary sheriffs, the minister should consider increasing that number if possible. Like Ms Cunningham, I believe that that would have the support of everyone in the chamber.

The establishment of the Scottish Parliament and the introduction of new legislation must be taken into consideration. Bills such as those on feudal tenure and on adults with incapacity may add to the burden of the courts. The bill on land reform that will be introduced in due course will certainly have that effect.

There is a feeling that, all too often, cases that involve very serious charges—murder or serious assault, for example—against individuals are downgraded and passed to the lower courts, to save time, effort and perhaps costs in the higher courts. The minister will, no doubt, suggest that that would never happen, but I suggest that there is evidence that it might.

When the minister examines this draft again, he should consider increasing the number of judges that is mentioned. That does not mean that we should automatically appoint that number. As he has said, that would provide room for manoeuvre. If more judges were needed, more could be appointed.

Finally, regarding Ms Cunningham's point about appointment of judges, all parties in this chamber would welcome further debate on that issue.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1990E181P340C711583", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Subordinate Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27060, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 536.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 536.0, "ID": 27060, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robson, Euan", "ID": 1990, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Roxburgh and Berwickshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Euan Robson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Euan Robson (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 563.0, "ContributionID": 711583, "EditedText": "I welcome the statement. It is clearly correct to make appointments and I hope that there will be more women judges as a result of today's draft order. One out of 27 is not the most creditable of situations. My main concerns are about the future, when the five judges return from their important duties at the Lockerbie trial and the Paddington rail disaster public inquiry. I hope that we will be able to retain some extra judges above the present 27. According to the SPICe research note, under section 22 of the Law Reform (Miscellaneous Provisions) (Scotland) Act 1985, there are four retired judges who are at present serving. Perhaps the Lord Advocate could clarify whether, when he referred earlier to natural wastage, the Minister for Justice meant that those retired judges would no longer continue to serve or whether he meant that, of the 27 judges who currently serve, some are likely to retire. As other members have said, we need extra judges because of the growing work load. I read some figures recently that showed that Scottish judges apparently devote an average of 207 days a year to judicial duties, a figure well above the norm in the United Kingdom. There were 4,788 court sitting days in 1998-99—higher than the 4,624 sitting days in 1997-98. Ten per cent more civil cases have been registered in the first six months of this financial year than were registered in the same period last year. High Court work load continues to rise, with 17 per cent more cases recorded in the six months to the end of September 1999 than were recorded in the same period last year. I ask the Minister for Justice and the Lord Advocate to suggest to some of the new judges that they might like to take the High Court around the country. They could take it to Jedburgh in my constituency, where the court was last held five or six years ago. That would, of course, entail the temporary transfer of some business to Duns sheriff court, the closure of which, as the Minister for Justice will note, is opposed by the Scottish Borders Council, the district courts in Berwickshire, local justices, Berwickshire community councils, the police, my colleague Archy Kirkwood and myself, the faculty of solicitors in Berwickshire and Roxburghshire, and the Law Society of Scotland. I hope that he recognises that point. In welcoming this order, I, too, hope that we can have a debate at a later date on the judicial appointments process.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the statement. It is clearly correct to make appointments and I hope that there will be more women judges as a result of today's draft order. One out of 27 is not the most creditable of situations.

My main concerns are about the future, when the five judges return from their important duties at the Lockerbie trial and the Paddington rail disaster public inquiry. I hope that we will be able to retain some extra judges above the present 27. According to the SPICe research note, under section 22 of the Law Reform (Miscellaneous Provisions) (Scotland) Act 1985, there are four retired judges who are at present serving. Perhaps the Lord Advocate could clarify whether, when he referred earlier to natural wastage, the Minister for Justice meant that those retired judges would no longer continue to serve or whether he meant that, of the 27 judges who currently serve, some are likely to retire.

As other members have said, we need extra judges because of the growing work load. I read some figures recently that showed that Scottish judges apparently devote an average of 207 days a year to judicial duties, a figure well above the norm in the United Kingdom. There were 4,788 court sitting days in 1998-99—higher than the 4,624 sitting days in 1997-98. Ten per cent more civil cases have been registered in the first six months of this financial year than were registered in the same period last year. High Court work load continues to rise, with 17 per cent more cases recorded in the six months to the end of

September 1999 than were recorded in the same period last year.

I ask the Minister for Justice and the Lord Advocate to suggest to some of the new judges that they might like to take the High Court around the country. They could take it to Jedburgh in my constituency, where the court was last held five or six years ago. That would, of course, entail the temporary transfer of some business to Duns sheriff court, the closure of which, as the Minister for Justice will note, is opposed by the Scottish Borders Council, the district courts in Berwickshire, local justices, Berwickshire community councils, the police, my colleague Archy Kirkwood and myself, the faculty of solicitors in Berwickshire and Roxburghshire, and the Law Society of Scotland. I hope that he recognises that point.

In welcoming this order, I, too, hope that we can have a debate at a later date on the judicial appointments process.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1970E66P288C711584", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Subordinate Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27060, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 536.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 536.0, "ID": 27060, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNulty, Des", "ID": 1970, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Clydebank and Milngavie" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Des McNulty", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Des McNulty (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 566.0, "ContributionID": 711584, "EditedText": "I was interested by what Bill Aitken said on judges and the gender issue—especially coming from Glasgow. When Bill was on Glasgow City Council, Conservative female representation on the council was only 33 per cent. Now, of course, it is 100 per cent female, and no doubt the Tory group on the council has improved greatly. The fact that there is only one Tory elected representative is perhaps the downside of that. There is a solid, strong argument that there should be a mechanism to encourage the full participation of women in public life. There is a great symbolic issue around the appointment of women judges.", "EditedTextHTML": "I was interested by what Bill Aitken said on judges and the gender issue—especially coming from Glasgow. When Bill was on Glasgow City Council, Conservative female representation on the council was only 33 per cent. Now, of course, it is 100 per cent female, and no doubt the Tory group on the council has improved greatly. The fact that there is only one Tory elected representative is perhaps the downside of that.

There is a solid, strong argument that there should be a mechanism to encourage the full participation of women in public life. There is a great symbolic issue around the appointment of women judges.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711599", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Subordinate Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27060, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 536.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 536.0, "ID": 27060, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 600.0, "ContributionID": 711599, "EditedText": "I am minded to accept a motion without notice in order to avoid a gap in our proceedings. Are we all agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am minded to accept a motion without notice in order to avoid a gap in our proceedings. Are we all agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1970E66P288C711588", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Subordinate Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27060, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 536.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 536.0, "ID": 27060, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNulty, Des", "ID": 1970, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Clydebank and Milngavie" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Des McNulty", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Des McNulty: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 574.0, "ContributionID": 711588, "EditedText": "I will certainly not disagree with Roseanna Cunningham about that. Another interesting aspect of Bill Aitken's speech was that, in effect, he did not object to any increase in the cost of running the system. Although I accept the arguments for increasing the maximum number of judges—as Roseanna Cunningham and Jim Wallace said, the allocation of Scottish judges to tasks elsewhere is a testimony to the individual reputations of Scottish judges and to the Scottish legal system—I feel that the speed at which cases are dealt with and the growth in the work load mean that that measure can be only part of a solution. We must examine how the system operates, bearing in mind that people in Scotland are becoming more litigious and that cases are becoming more complicated. Appointing more judges will go some way towards relieving the temporary backlog and dealing with the problem that is caused by the fact that some of our judges will be elsewhere doing different business in the next two or three years. The broader issue about how the criminal and civil justice systems work requires further consideration. Costs are a consideration. Money that is spent on the operation of the justice system is not being spent elsewhere. Although I would defend to the hilt the principle that the justice system must be seen to be equitable, fair and to work effectively, we must still reflect on how that should be paid for. I do not think that the matter of cost should be overlooked. I understand that the Lord Justice-General has met the Crown Office, the Faculty of Advocates and others to discuss issues arising from work load. I welcome those discussions but hope that, once we have passed the order, ministers will talk to us more generally about how work load issues will be handled and involve us in the consultation on the appointments process. Pauline McNeill and others made important points about how that process operates. The Parliament has adopted strong principles of transparency and openness. In doing so, it has set a model for Scottish public life. In Scotland, we want to see as clearly as possible how things are done. I welcome the consultation process and look forward to receiving its conclusions and to debating the way ahead in Parliament. Those are important issues in supporting and enhancing the credibility and reputation of the Scottish legal system and the position of Scottish judges. While we should congratulate the judges and the legal system on the way in which they have operated until now, we should recognise that their growing work load will force change, as will the political culture that we are creating in Scotland. We should embrace that and build on the strength of the existing system, to make it more accessible, transparent and accountable to the people of Scotland and in that way prepares it for the new millennium.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will certainly not disagree with Roseanna Cunningham about that.

Another interesting aspect of Bill Aitken's speech was that, in effect, he did not object to any increase in the cost of running the system. Although I accept the arguments for increasing the

maximum number of judges—as Roseanna Cunningham and Jim Wallace said, the allocation of Scottish judges to tasks elsewhere is a testimony to the individual reputations of Scottish judges and to the Scottish legal system—I feel that the speed at which cases are dealt with and the growth in the work load mean that that measure can be only part of a solution. We must examine how the system operates, bearing in mind that people in Scotland are becoming more litigious and that cases are becoming more complicated. Appointing more judges will go some way towards relieving the temporary backlog and dealing with the problem that is caused by the fact that some of our judges will be elsewhere doing different business in the next two or three years.

The broader issue about how the criminal and civil justice systems work requires further consideration. Costs are a consideration. Money that is spent on the operation of the justice system is not being spent elsewhere. Although I would defend to the hilt the principle that the justice system must be seen to be equitable, fair and to work effectively, we must still reflect on how that should be paid for. I do not think that the matter of cost should be overlooked.

I understand that the Lord Justice-General has met the Crown Office, the Faculty of Advocates and others to discuss issues arising from work load. I welcome those discussions but hope that, once we have passed the order, ministers will talk to us more generally about how work load issues will be handled and involve us in the consultation on the appointments process. Pauline McNeill and others made important points about how that process operates.

The Parliament has adopted strong principles of transparency and openness. In doing so, it has set a model for Scottish public life. In Scotland, we want to see as clearly as possible how things are done. I welcome the consultation process and look forward to receiving its conclusions and to debating the way ahead in Parliament. Those are important issues in supporting and enhancing the credibility and reputation of the Scottish legal system and the position of Scottish judges.

While we should congratulate the judges and the legal system on the way in which they have operated until now, we should recognise that their growing work load will force change, as will the political culture that we are creating in Scotland. We should embrace that and build on the strength of the existing system, to make it more accessible, transparent and accountable to the people of Scotland and in that way prepares it for the new millennium.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1840E82P158C711589", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Subordinate Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27060, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 536.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 536.0, "ID": 27060, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macmillan, Maureen", "ID": 1840, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Maureen Macmillan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Maureen Macmillan (Highlands and Islands) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 577.0, "ContributionID": 711589, "EditedText": "Pauline McNeill talked about the lack of gender balance in the judiciary. Women are less likely to be chosen in any area of public life because the people doing the choosing are usually men. If we want gender balance in the judiciary, the way forward might be to have gender balance in the people who choose the judges. Judges and similar public appointments should be chosen by representatives of the whole community rather than judges choosing other judges, because then the pattern is self-perpetuating. I also raise the possibility that judges should have special training in areas where, although I know that I must not murmur against judges, I believe they may often not make the right decisions—in cases of rape and sexual and domestic abuse. It is not always fully appreciated by the judiciary just what goes on in such cases, and the judiciary may exhibit stereotyped and outdated views on the place of women and women's responsibility for their own safety. I hope that Lord Hardie will address those points in his reply.", "EditedTextHTML": "Pauline McNeill talked about the lack of gender balance in the judiciary. Women are less likely to be chosen in any area of public life because the people doing the choosing are usually men. If we want gender balance in the judiciary, the way forward might be to have gender balance in the people who choose the judges. Judges and similar public appointments should be chosen by representatives of the whole community rather than judges choosing other judges, because then the pattern is self-perpetuating.

I also raise the possibility that judges should have special training in areas where, although I know that I must not murmur against judges, I believe they may often not make the right decisions—in cases of rape and sexual and domestic abuse. It is not always fully appreciated by the judiciary just what goes on in such cases, and the judiciary may exhibit stereotyped and outdated views on the place of women and women's responsibility for their own safety.

I hope that Lord Hardie will address those points in his reply.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2228E151P202C711601", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Subordinate Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27060, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 536.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 536.0, "ID": 27060, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McCabe, Tom", "ID": 2228, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Tom McCabe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McCabe: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 603.0, "ContributionID": 711601, "EditedText": "I intend to move that decision time be brought forward to 4.48 pm. The reason for the motion is that there is significant interest in tonight's members' debate and any additional time that we can add to it will be most helpful. I would like to take a few moments to address Mike Russell's earlier comments. Mike is a valued colleague on the Parliamentary Bureau, but it is important to put this motion into context: we are only 12 minutes from our normal decision time at five o'clock. We are, however, always keen to take Mike's thoughts and suggestions on board and we will do that. Before I move the motion, may I say that I think that the Lord Advocate is worth every penny. Laughter. I move,That the Parliament agrees that decision time be brought forward to 4.48 pm.", "EditedTextHTML": "I intend to move that decision time be brought forward to 4.48 pm. The reason for the motion is that there is significant interest in tonight's members' debate and any additional time that we can add to it will be most helpful.

I would like to take a few moments to address Mike Russell's earlier comments. Mike is a valued colleague on the Parliamentary Bureau, but it is important to put this motion into context: we are only 12 minutes from our normal decision time at five o'clock. We are, however, always keen to take Mike's thoughts and suggestions on board and we will do that.

Before I move the motion, may I say that I think that the Lord Advocate is worth every penny. [Laughter.]

I move,

That the Parliament agrees that decision time be brought forward to 4.48 pm.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711602", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Subordinate Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27060, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 536.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 536.0, "ID": 27060, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 605.0, "ContributionID": 711602, "EditedText": "The question is, that decision time be brought forward to 4.48 pm.", "EditedTextHTML": "The question is, that decision time be brought forward to 4.48 pm.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2056E57P84C711590", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Subordinate Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27060, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 536.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 536.0, "ID": 27060, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James", "ID": 2056, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "James Douglas-Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Lord James Douglas-Hamilton (Lothians) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 580.0, "ContributionID": 711590, "EditedText": "I support what Maureen Macmillan has said on advancing women on merit to be senators of the College of Justice. Hazel Aronson has forged a blazing trail and created history as the first woman to do that. She is a person of enormous ability and I have no doubt that many more women will follow in her footsteps. This debate arises in large measure as a result of the terrible tragedy at Lockerbie. Because of the desire of the victims and their families to seek justice, a trial of the accused will take place on foreign soil under Scots law and Scottish judges. The night of the tragedy was one of the most traumatic of my life. I was told by Jim Sillars that a jumbo jet had come down on Lockerbie, so I went to Dover House, to the Secretary of State for Scotland's office. Arrangements were being made for a RAF jet and helicopter to take him to the scene of the disaster. When I arrived back in the House of Commons, Neil Kinnock asked me to ensure that Donald Dewar went as well. He and I arrived at the scene shortly after midnight and witnessed the effects of the nightmare that had unfolded. My most vivid memory is not just of the disconsolate groups of firefighters, police and soldiers, but of the rows of empty ambulances. To some extent, I was anaesthetised by the darkness. There was a feeling of impotence, despite the great will to assist. The tragedy had happened and those directly affected were either alive or dead; there were very few injured. There was an awareness of the enormity of the tragedy. To give some idea of its scale, more Americans lost their lives at Lockerbie than British were killed in the Falklands war. Today we face the consequences of that night. Four of Scotland's 27 judges will attend the trial and will be unavailable for service in this country. It is not the only tragedy with implications beyond Scotland that Scottish judges have to deal with. Lord Cullen, whose reports on Piper Alpha and Dunblane were of the highest standard, and who is known for his compassion and humanity, as well as for his great ability, is to conduct the public inquiry into the tragedy at Paddington. As a result, the Lord President of the Court of Session has reasonably submitted a request that there should be an increase in the maximum number of judges to deal with court business in the absence of the five senior judges who are performing their duties elsewhere. Without the extra judges, the courts would be put under intolerable pressure. In any case, there is a need for more judges because of the increased work load on the supreme courts, especially in relation to criminal matters in the High Court of Justiciary. New laws that relate to fresh evidence have an impact on the High Court of Justiciary in its appellate jurisdiction, which has to deal with detailed legal arguments and the presentation of complex facts. That means that appeals can take a considerable time. Similarly, in the Court of Session more civil trials are going to proof or to jury trial, which adds to the pressure. In addition, the new measures in the Scotland Act 1998 and the Human Rights Act 1998, and the obligation that the courts must comply with the European convention on human rights, are increasing the work load of the criminal and civil courts on account of the complexity of the issues involved. The work load of Scotland's judges will increase considerably as a result of those factors, so the news about temporary sheriffs is of particular concern. To illustrate, there are 108 permanent sheriffs and 126 temporary sheriffs, and 10 permanent sheriffs are being recruited. I submit to the Lord Advocate that suspending the use of temporary sheriffs for all new cases could lead to an upsurge in the work load of, and a massive upheaval to, the courts system. I respectfully request that the Administration return to this Parliament when it has fully and properly assessed what the consequences of the draft order in council will be. I realise that contingency plans have been put in place, but they will not be sufficient to deal with the massive hole in the court system that will be caused by the overnight removal of 126 temporary sheriffs. I ask the Administration to address the matter urgently, because it is too soon to judge the full implications. It is essential that the Executive should make clear the contingency plans that will be put in place if the current contingency plans are insufficient for the purposes required. I hope that the Lord Advocate will be able to clarify—if possible in his winding-up speech—whether an appeal against this judgment will be lodged. The public must be protected. The last thing the electorate want is cases involving crimes of violence not being brought to justice because the court system is clogged up. It is essential that the public are protected and that persons charged with crimes of violence are brought to the courts. The Executive has an inescapable duty to put the necessary arrangements, procedures and funding in place, to secure a sufficiency in the number of Scotland's judges.", "EditedTextHTML": "I support what Maureen Macmillan has said on advancing women on merit to be senators of the College of Justice. Hazel Aronson has forged a blazing trail and created history as the first woman to do that. She is a person of enormous ability and I have no doubt that many more women will follow in her footsteps.

This debate arises in large measure as a result of the terrible tragedy at Lockerbie. Because of the desire of the victims and their families to seek justice, a trial of the accused will take place on foreign soil under Scots law and Scottish judges. The night of the tragedy was one of the most traumatic of my life. I was told by Jim Sillars that a jumbo jet had come down on Lockerbie, so I went to Dover House, to the Secretary of State for Scotland's office. Arrangements were being made for a RAF jet and helicopter to take him to the scene of the disaster.

When I arrived back in the House of Commons, Neil Kinnock asked me to ensure that Donald Dewar went as well. He and I arrived at the scene shortly after midnight and witnessed the effects of the nightmare that had unfolded. My most vivid memory is not just of the disconsolate groups of firefighters, police and soldiers, but of the rows of empty ambulances. To some extent, I was anaesthetised by the darkness. There was a feeling of impotence, despite the great will to assist. The tragedy had happened and those

directly affected were either alive or dead; there were very few injured. There was an awareness of the enormity of the tragedy. To give some idea of its scale, more Americans lost their lives at Lockerbie than British were killed in the Falklands war.

Today we face the consequences of that night. Four of Scotland's 27 judges will attend the trial and will be unavailable for service in this country. It is not the only tragedy with implications beyond Scotland that Scottish judges have to deal with. Lord Cullen, whose reports on Piper Alpha and Dunblane were of the highest standard, and who is known for his compassion and humanity, as well as for his great ability, is to conduct the public inquiry into the tragedy at Paddington. As a result, the Lord President of the Court of Session has reasonably submitted a request that there should be an increase in the maximum number of judges to deal with court business in the absence of the five senior judges who are performing their duties elsewhere. Without the extra judges, the courts would be put under intolerable pressure.

In any case, there is a need for more judges because of the increased work load on the supreme courts, especially in relation to criminal matters in the High Court of Justiciary. New laws that relate to fresh evidence have an impact on the High Court of Justiciary in its appellate jurisdiction, which has to deal with detailed legal arguments and the presentation of complex facts. That means that appeals can take a considerable time. Similarly, in the Court of Session more civil trials are going to proof or to jury trial, which adds to the pressure.

In addition, the new measures in the Scotland Act 1998 and the Human Rights Act 1998, and the obligation that the courts must comply with the European convention on human rights, are increasing the work load of the criminal and civil courts on account of the complexity of the issues involved.

The work load of Scotland's judges will increase considerably as a result of those factors, so the news about temporary sheriffs is of particular concern. To illustrate, there are 108 permanent sheriffs and 126 temporary sheriffs, and 10 permanent sheriffs are being recruited. I submit to the Lord Advocate that suspending the use of temporary sheriffs for all new cases could lead to an upsurge in the work load of, and a massive upheaval to, the courts system.

I respectfully request that the Administration return to this Parliament when it has fully and properly assessed what the consequences of the draft order in council will be. I realise that contingency plans have been put in place, but they will not be sufficient to deal with the massive hole in the court system that will be caused by the overnight removal of 126 temporary sheriffs. I ask the Administration to address the matter urgently, because it is too soon to judge the full implications.

It is essential that the Executive should make clear the contingency plans that will be put in place if the current contingency plans are insufficient for the purposes required. I hope that the Lord Advocate will be able to clarify—if possible in his winding-up speech—whether an appeal against this judgment will be lodged. The public must be protected. The last thing the electorate want is cases involving crimes of violence not being brought to justice because the court system is clogged up. It is essential that the public are protected and that persons charged with crimes of violence are brought to the courts. The Executive has an inescapable duty to put the necessary arrangements, procedures and funding in place, to secure a sufficiency in the number of Scotland's judges.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C711593", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Subordinate Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27060, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 536.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 536.0, "ID": 27060, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 588.0, "ContributionID": 711593, "EditedText": "I accept the Lord Advocate's comments, but I am slightly disappointed. This is a draft order, and I thought that there might have been an opportunity to change it. A significant announcement has been made today that alters the situation. If we are to get all the benefits of this Parliament that the Minister for Justice mentioned today, it would have been welcome if we could have induced a rethink.", "EditedTextHTML": "I accept the Lord Advocate's comments, but I am slightly disappointed. This is a draft order, and I thought that there might have been an opportunity to change it.

A significant announcement has been made today that alters the situation. If we are to get all the benefits of this Parliament that the Minister for Justice mentioned today, it would have been welcome if we could have induced a rethink.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2228E151P202C711598", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Subordinate Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27060, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 536.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 536.0, "ID": 27060, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McCabe, Tom", "ID": 2228, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Tom McCabe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Parliament (Mr Tom McCabe): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 598.0, "ContributionID": 711598, "EditedText": "Presiding Officer, I seek your agreement to move a parliamentary business motion without notice.", "EditedTextHTML": "Presiding Officer, I seek your agreement to move a parliamentary business motion without notice.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711613", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pardon for Executed Soldiers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27062, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 618.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 618.0, "ID": 27062, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 624.0, "ContributionID": 711613, "EditedText": "In that case, we have almost 40 minutes for the debate. Many people wish to speak, so short contributions will be appreciated. Before I call Dr Murray to speak to the motion, I remind the chamber that we are debating a reserved matter—as we are entitled to do—but members should avoid indicating otherwise in their speeches. We are here to give our opinions and that is all.", "EditedTextHTML": "In that case, we have almost 40 minutes for the debate. Many people wish to speak, so short contributions will be appreciated. Before I call Dr Murray to speak to the motion, I remind the chamber that we are debating a reserved matter—as we are entitled to do—but members should avoid indicating otherwise in their speeches. We are here to give our opinions and that is all.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711615", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pardon for Executed Soldiers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27062, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 618.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 618.0, "ID": 27062, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 627.0, "ContributionID": 711615, "EditedText": "That the Parliament believes that it is not too late to restore the names and reputations of the soldiers of the British empire forces court martialled and executed, mostly on the western front, in the four years 1914-18, following charges ranging across desertion, cowardice, quitting posts, sleeping at posts, disobedience, striking a superior officer and casting away arms; regrets deficiencies in their opportunity to prepare adequate defence and appeals; notes the marked and enlightened change in the army's attitude just over a score of years later to the consequences of soldiers enduring long periods of severe cold and damp, lack of food and sleep coupled with the stress and shock of constant shellfire with the result that not a single solider was executed on these charges throughout the six years from 1939-45; considers that the vast majority of the 307 executed were as patriotic and brave as their million other compatriots who perished in the conflict and that their misfortune was brought about due to stress, or the stress of their accusers, during battle, and that even if the behaviour of a small minority may have fallen below that of the highest standards then time, compassion and justice dictates that all of these soldiers should now be treated as victims of the conflict, and urges Her Majesty's Government to recommend a posthumous pardon, thus bringing to a close a deeply unhappy and controversial chapter in the history of the Great War.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament believes that it is not too late to restore the names and reputations of the soldiers of the British empire forces court martialled and executed, mostly on the western front, in the four years 1914-18, following charges ranging across desertion, cowardice, quitting posts, sleeping at posts, disobedience, striking a superior officer and casting away arms; regrets deficiencies in their opportunity to prepare adequate defence and appeals; notes the marked and enlightened change in the army's attitude just over a score of years later to the consequences of soldiers enduring long periods of severe cold and damp, lack of food and sleep coupled with the stress and shock of constant shellfire with the result that not a single solider was executed on these charges throughout the six years from 1939-45; considers that the vast majority of the 307 executed were as patriotic and brave as their million other compatriots who perished in the conflict and that their misfortune was brought about due to stress, or the stress of their accusers, during battle, and that even if the behaviour of a small minority may have fallen below that of the highest standards then time, compassion and justice dictates that all of these soldiers should now be treated as victims of the conflict, and urges Her Majesty's Government to recommend a posthumous pardon, thus bringing to a close a deeply unhappy and controversial chapter in the history of the Great War.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1762E216P508C711618", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pardon for Executed Soldiers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27062, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 618.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 618.0, "ID": 27062, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Elder, Dorothy-Grace", "ID": 1762, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 634.0, "ContributionID": 711618, "EditedText": "Thank you, Elaine, very much indeed for raising this subject. I am sure that we all admire your sensitivity in doing so. We are talking today of men who were condemned, unfairly, as cowards. Would their comrades—those who actually died in battle— condemn them? I think not. I have brought along today some relics—they are the only ones left—of one of numerous members of my family to have died in battle. This medal is from the first world war. My grandmother and my grandfather sent to that war, most reluctantly, three of their sons. To this day, my family—like so many families in Scotland—are still haunted and shaped by the great war, more than by the second world war. Indeed, it was out of the great war that our socialism came. My family moved to Glasgow to follow Jimmy Maxton. This is all that families got—a bronze medal, or bronze medallion. Members can imagine how embarrassed I was to receive one after four month's service in this Parliament. Families also got a wee letter from the King. This one has the name of the soldier—Robert Blackwood Stevenson of the Black Watch. My family also served in other regiments, such as the Highland Light Infantry and the Scottish Horse. The King wrote: \"I join with my grateful people in sending you this memorial of a brave life given for others in the Great War.\" At the bottom is a facsimile signature: so many were being slaughtered that the King did not have time to sign all the letters. Or maybe he did not bother, I do not know. I found that uncle's grave at Ypres a couple of years ago with my children. It was in a great city of the dead. We do not know quite how they died, do we? But I know, from the tales of my grandparents, what their son Robert, who died, told them when he was home on leave, or wrote to them in some of the letters that managed to escape the censors. He wrote of men shooting themselves in the foot, hoping that the injury would be just bad enough for them to be sent home. He wrote of brave soldiers, his friends, going crazy in the trenches. He did not regard himself as superior to them in any way whatever. They prayed for death sometimes. That boy told his parents: \"We only hope it will come quickly, because we know we are not going to come out of it alive.\" He died a hero. I say that every man who died in that great war was a hero, no matter how he died. Some went to war for reasons that we do not like to discuss today. Silly people were going round the streets of Scotland handing out white feathers to men who were not in uniform. I regret very much to say that they were mainly women. That is a deadly form of sexism—sending a young man out to his death simply because it was thought that it was all a big picnic. We know that it was far from that. Eventually, this unknown uncle of mine was mown down by German machine-gunners. I have the original letter from the padre who sat with him as he died. He told my grandmother: \"Your son . . . at the end . . . managed to say the Lord's prayer.\" I am sure that my uncle, who would be counted among the glorious dead, would not for one moment condemn those who were executed for a variety of different reasons. The Australians refused to execute anyone, and yet the British executed even 10 Chinese. Those poor men probably came all the way from Hong Kong to die on Flanders field, not in battle, but through execution, probably because they fell asleep at their posts. Today the British Army loses more young men to suicide than to terrorism. Those young men are very often bullied in barracks. I fought a campaign on that issue and thankfully the Ministry of Defence gave £400,000 towards the helpline that I sought for young troops. If those fine young soldiers die because they cannot take some of the pressures, imagine what it was like for my uncle to lie in a trench with his best friend in a dozen pieces alongside him because, as he wrote to his father Paul, it was too dangerous for the orderlies to remove the bodies. We are unpardonable if we do not pardon these men. We are also unpardonable for our treatment of war widows and for the fact that Erskine hospital needs £2 million. That money should be given now. We will have learned little in this blood-stained century if we still support weapons of mass destruction. In the name of decency and pity, I ask members to back the motion and to move that these men take their rightful place in the legion of the glorious dead.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you, Elaine, very much indeed for raising this subject. I am sure that we all admire your sensitivity in doing so.

We are talking today of men who were condemned, unfairly, as cowards. Would their comrades—those who actually died in battle— condemn them? I think not.

I have brought along today some relics—they are the only ones left—of one of numerous members of my family to have died in battle. This medal is from the first world war. My grandmother and my grandfather sent to that war, most reluctantly, three of their sons. To this day, my family—like so many families in Scotland—are still haunted and shaped by the great war, more than by the second world war. Indeed, it was out of the great war that our socialism came. My family moved to Glasgow to follow Jimmy Maxton. This is all that families got—a bronze medal, or bronze medallion. Members can imagine how embarrassed I was to receive one after four month's service in this Parliament.

Families also got a wee letter from the King. This one has the name of the soldier—Robert Blackwood Stevenson of the Black Watch. My family also served in other regiments, such as the Highland Light Infantry and the Scottish Horse. The King wrote:

\"I join with my grateful people in sending you this memorial of a brave life given for others in the Great War.\"

At the bottom is a facsimile signature: so many were being slaughtered that the King did not have time to sign all the letters. Or maybe he did not bother, I do not know.

I found that uncle's grave at Ypres a couple of years ago with my children. It was in a great city of the dead. We do not know quite how they died, do we? But I know, from the tales of my grandparents, what their son Robert, who died, told them when he was home on leave, or wrote to them in some of the letters that managed to escape the censors. He wrote of men shooting themselves in the foot, hoping that the injury would be just bad enough for them to be sent home. He wrote of brave soldiers, his friends, going crazy in the trenches. He did not regard himself as superior to them in any way whatever. They prayed for death sometimes. That boy told his parents:

\"We only hope it will come quickly, because we know we are not going to come out of it alive.\"

He died a hero. I say that every man who died in that great war was a hero, no matter how he died.

Some went to war for reasons that we do not like to discuss today. Silly people were going round the streets of Scotland handing out white feathers to men who were not in uniform. I regret very much to say that they were mainly women. That is a deadly form of sexism—sending a young man out to his death simply because it was thought that it was all a big picnic. We know that it was far from that.

Eventually, this unknown uncle of mine was mown down by German machine-gunners. I have the original letter from the padre who sat with him as he died. He told my grandmother:

\"Your son . . . at the end . . . managed to say the Lord's prayer.\"

I am sure that my uncle, who would be counted among the glorious dead, would not for one moment condemn those who were executed for a variety of different reasons.

The Australians refused to execute anyone, and yet the British executed even 10 Chinese. Those poor men probably came all the way from Hong Kong to die on Flanders field, not in battle, but through execution, probably because they fell asleep at their posts.

Today the British Army loses more young men to suicide than to terrorism. Those young men are very often bullied in barracks. I fought a campaign on that issue and thankfully the Ministry of Defence gave £400,000 towards the helpline that I sought for young troops. If those fine young soldiers die because they cannot take some of the pressures, imagine what it was like for my uncle to lie in a trench with his best friend in a dozen pieces alongside him because, as he wrote to his father Paul, it was too dangerous for the orderlies to remove the bodies.

We are unpardonable if we do not pardon these men. We are also unpardonable for our treatment of war widows and for the fact that Erskine

hospital needs £2 million. That money should be given now.

We will have learned little in this blood-stained century if we still support weapons of mass destruction. In the name of decency and pity, I ask members to back the motion and to move that these men take their rightful place in the legion of the glorious dead.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1916E38P70C711619", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pardon for Executed Soldiers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27062, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 618.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 618.0, "ID": 27062, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Ben", "ID": 1916, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ben Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ben Wallace (North-East Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 637.0, "ContributionID": 711619, "EditedText": "My speech is in no way a challenge to the tragedy of the first world war or to the horrific waste of life that all war and conflict lead to, whether 80 years ago or just this year in Kosovo. Although I do not oppose the fact that it was a travesty that these young men were executed, I disagree with the concept of a pardon for something that happened in history. Today we should remember all the men and women who have died in every war fighting for our freedom, just as we should remember the members of the armed forces who are serving all over the world today. Although I understand the tragedies and personal losses created by the first world war, I fear that the motion before us is naive. Dr Murray is asking us to judge events by modern-day standards and values. As a soldier who served in Northern Ireland and central America, I know what it is like to be scared, cold and underfed. I know what it is like to patrol in areas not knowing where the next sniper's bullet will come from. I have carried men who have shot themselves through their stomachs because of fear of marriage breakup or of their duties. I also know what it is like to be separated from someone I love very much. That was something about which I could do nothing; I could not go home because I had to do my duty. Perhaps Dr Murray could tell us which of the 307 soldiers who were tried quit their posts, deserted or were wrongly convicted. I am afraid to say that, like her colleague Dr Reid when in the Ministry of Defence, she cannot. The evidence is simply not available. Even at the time, the evidence was basic and crude because men and peers judged one another from their contemporary experience of the situation. It is extremely hard for us to go back and discover which of those men deserted their colleagues and left the rest of their company to be massacred by an enemy or which of them was wrongly convicted.", "EditedTextHTML": "My speech is in no way a challenge to the tragedy of the first world war or to the horrific waste of life that all war and conflict lead to, whether 80 years ago or just this year in Kosovo. Although I do not oppose the fact that it was a travesty that these young men were executed, I disagree with the concept of a pardon for something that happened in history. Today we should remember all the men and women who have died in every war fighting for our freedom, just as we should remember the members of the armed forces who are serving all over the world today.

Although I understand the tragedies and personal losses created by the first world war, I fear that the motion before us is naive. Dr Murray is asking us to judge events by modern-day standards and values. As a soldier who served in Northern Ireland and central America, I know what it is like to be scared, cold and underfed. I know what it is like to patrol in areas not knowing where the next sniper's bullet will come from. I have carried men who have shot themselves through their stomachs because of fear of marriage breakup or of their duties. I also know what it is like to be separated from someone I love very much. That was something about which I could do nothing; I could not go home because I had to do my duty.

Perhaps Dr Murray could tell us which of the 307 soldiers who were tried quit their posts, deserted or were wrongly convicted. I am afraid to say that, like her colleague Dr Reid when in the Ministry of Defence, she cannot. The evidence is simply not available. Even at the time, the evidence was basic and crude because men and peers judged one another from their contemporary experience of the situation. It is extremely hard for us to go back and discover which of those men deserted their colleagues and left the rest of their company to be massacred by an enemy or which of them was wrongly convicted.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1950E155P451C711624", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pardon for Executed Soldiers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27062, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 618.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 618.0, "ID": 27062, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Campbell, Colin", "ID": 1950, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Colin Campbell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Colin Campbell (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 650.0, "ContributionID": 711624, "EditedText": "I belong to a generation that wakes up every morning and thanks God that it has never had to go through what people went through in that war. I feel enormously privileged for that. Were I not in this place, I would be studying that war—I have studied it for a long time. I have a deep interest in it, and I have difficulty dealing with this subject. Soldiers who were killed by shellfire or gunfire while deserting their posts and surrendering are on the rolls of honour. In \"Goodbye to All That\", Robert Graves wrote of the drunken sergeant carrying the rum ration up the line to the men, falling over and spilling the last remnants of the rum on the ground. The officer put his foot on the back of the sergeant's neck and drowned him in the mud for the rum which his men had been deprived of. I am sure that the sergeant is on the roll of honour as well. In 1953 or 1954, I spoke to an old man while I was cutting a hedge. He had been in the King's Own Scottish Borderers at the battle of Loos on 25 September 1915. He spoke of a young man who was in tears through the agony of apprehension and fear in not wanting to go over the top. The officer came along, drunk out of his mind, and offered the boy alcohol. The boy said, \"If I am going to die, I am going to die sober.\" He was in a state of extreme cowardice; the officer was drunk on duty. They should probably both have been taken out and sorted. Because their colleagues were around, they went over. They were both killed. They will be on a roll of honour somewhere. Officers on the ground tolerated soldiers committing suicide, understood it and did not write letters home telling their relatives that that was happening. They all knew that they were living in hell, living through hell, hoping to get through hell. Their names—the people who committed suicide and \"got away with it\"—will also be on the rolls of honour and the war memorials. I feel the hand of history stretching down over the years, touching us all. That war has affected us in ways that many of us never know and will never know. It has affected the psyche of the nation in many ways. The boys we are talking about were unlucky enough to come up against officers who took a stronger and less compassionate line than others. I researched a particular Highland officer who, in all his work, recognised officers and men cracking up—that is tolerated by the people at the front line. These boys were unlucky and paid the price of a disciplinary system that was too severe for the time. For their relatives and friends, for those who were innocent, to ease the pain of their relatives and to recognise the enormously credible job that those boys did before they met their fate at the hands of their own side, I support the motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "I belong to a generation that wakes up every morning and thanks God that it has never had to go through what people went through in that war. I feel enormously privileged for that. Were I not in this place, I would be studying that war—I have studied it for a long time. I have a deep interest in it, and I have difficulty dealing with this subject.

Soldiers who were killed by shellfire or gunfire while deserting their posts and surrendering are on the rolls of honour.

In \"Goodbye to All That\", Robert Graves wrote of the drunken sergeant carrying the rum ration up the line to the men, falling over and spilling the last remnants of the rum on the ground. The officer put his foot on the back of the sergeant's neck and drowned him in the mud for the rum which his men had been deprived of. I am sure that the sergeant is on the roll of honour as well.

In 1953 or 1954, I spoke to an old man while I was cutting a hedge. He had been in the King's Own Scottish Borderers at the battle of Loos on 25 September 1915. He spoke of a young man who

was in tears through the agony of apprehension and fear in not wanting to go over the top. The officer came along, drunk out of his mind, and offered the boy alcohol. The boy said, \"If I am going to die, I am going to die sober.\" He was in a state of extreme cowardice; the officer was drunk on duty. They should probably both have been taken out and sorted. Because their colleagues were around, they went over. They were both killed. They will be on a roll of honour somewhere.

Officers on the ground tolerated soldiers committing suicide, understood it and did not write letters home telling their relatives that that was happening. They all knew that they were living in hell, living through hell, hoping to get through hell. Their names—the people who committed suicide and \"got away with it\"—will also be on the rolls of honour and the war memorials.

I feel the hand of history stretching down over the years, touching us all. That war has affected us in ways that many of us never know and will never know. It has affected the psyche of the nation in many ways.

The boys we are talking about were unlucky enough to come up against officers who took a stronger and less compassionate line than others. I researched a particular Highland officer who, in all his work, recognised officers and men cracking up—that is tolerated by the people at the front line.

These boys were unlucky and paid the price of a disciplinary system that was too severe for the time. For their relatives and friends, for those who were innocent, to ease the pain of their relatives and to recognise the enormously credible job that those boys did before they met their fate at the hands of their own side, I support the motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.513892+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1752E75P296C711625", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pardon for Executed Soldiers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27062, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 618.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 618.0, "ID": 27062, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jamieson, Cathy", "ID": 1752, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Cathy Jamieson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Cathy Jamieson (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 653.0, "ContributionID": 711625, "EditedText": "I, too, wish to commend Elaine Murray for bringing this motion to the chamber today. My interest in this subject came about when I was studying art therapy. I learnt that many of the quite young people who returned from the first world war were either shell-shocked or hospitalised. After looking at some of the artwork, poetry and writings that were produced, I became aware that none of us can honestly say we understand just how traumatic a time they had. When we examine now what happened then, it is clear that some of the people who were executed by their own side were suffering from what would be seen now as clinical disorders such as post-traumatic stress syndrome. I wish to speak about a particular case that Elaine has already alluded to. She mentioned the campaign by Private McCubbin's niece, a constituent of mine who lives in Girvan. Aged 70, she has been campaigning for a number of years and recently tried to highlight some of the issues and how they affect her family. She talked in the local press about the trauma that her family faced: being misled about the circumstances in which her uncle died and not being given proper information until much later. My constituent believes that her uncle's death should not have happened and that the people who made the decision to take his life had no right to do so because he was not able to make proper representation. She argues that he volunteered to fight for his country in the first place. She said that \"He was a very sensitive man\"and explains that he appealed for clemency on the basis that his nerves were shattered—that was his expression at the time—which is exactly the kind of trauma that would be recognised now. Unfortunately, his appeal for clemency was not successful and, tragically, like so many others, he was executed. I do not think that it is too much to ask, today of all days, for a unanimous view from this Parliament to give hope to Grace Sloan and others like her who have campaigned on their families' behalf over the years. I give a commitment that I will continue to support her campaign and I ask members to support the motion. We have heard today about the tragedy of war and all the horrors that go with it. Many members have been wearing peace poppies over the past few days and have come under criticism for that. The wearing of the white poppy was promoted by none other than the Co-operative Women's Guild, which was not a radical, loony organisation. Its members were women who were at home, doing the work, while the men, many of whom did not return, were serving in the war. Members will note that I am wearing both poppies. I want to remember the tragedy of what happened before. Equally, many years ago, I made a commitment to become involved in the peace movement to ensure that such things never happen again. I have a 13-year-old son. I want never to have to do what many members of my family did: watch their young men going off to war, never to return. Please understand that the peace process is not just about an absence of war; it is about taking positive steps to resolve conflict. Please show a bit of tolerance and understanding for those of us who try to make our point by wearing the white poppy.", "EditedTextHTML": "I, too, wish to commend Elaine Murray for bringing this motion to the chamber today.

My interest in this subject came about when I was studying art therapy. I learnt that many of the quite young people who returned from the first world war were either shell-shocked or hospitalised. After looking at some of the artwork, poetry and writings that were produced, I became aware that none of us can honestly say we understand just how traumatic a time they had.

When we examine now what happened then, it is clear that some of the people who were executed by their own side were suffering from what would be seen now as clinical disorders such as post-traumatic stress syndrome.

I wish to speak about a particular case that Elaine has already alluded to. She mentioned the campaign by Private McCubbin's niece, a constituent of mine who lives in Girvan. Aged 70, she has been campaigning for a number of years and recently tried to highlight some of the issues and how they affect her family. She talked in the local press about the trauma that her family faced: being misled about the circumstances in which her uncle died and not being given proper information until much later.

My constituent believes that her uncle's death should not have happened and that the people who made the decision to take his life had no right to do so because he was not able to make proper representation. She argues that he volunteered to fight for his country in the first place. She said that

\"He was a very sensitive man\"

and explains that he appealed for clemency on the basis that his nerves were shattered—that was his expression at the time—which is exactly the kind of trauma that would be recognised now. Unfortunately, his appeal for clemency was not successful and, tragically, like so many others, he was executed.

I do not think that it is too much to ask, today of all days, for a unanimous view from this Parliament to give hope to Grace Sloan and others like her who have campaigned on their families' behalf over the years. I give a commitment that I will continue to support her campaign and I ask members to support the motion.

We have heard today about the tragedy of war and all the horrors that go with it. Many members have been wearing peace poppies over the past few days and have come under criticism for that. The wearing of the white poppy was promoted by none other than the Co-operative Women's Guild, which was not a radical, loony organisation. Its members were women who were at home, doing the work, while the men, many of whom did not return, were serving in the war.

Members will note that I am wearing both poppies. I want to remember the tragedy of what happened before. Equally, many years ago, I made a commitment to become involved in the peace movement to ensure that such things never happen again. I have a 13-year-old son. I want never to have to do what many members of my family did: watch their young men going off to war, never to return.

Please understand that the peace process is not just about an absence of war; it is about taking positive steps to resolve conflict. Please show a bit of tolerance and understanding for those of us who try to make our point by wearing the white poppy.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.513892+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2228E151P202C711627", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pardon for Executed Soldiers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27062, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 618.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 618.0, "ID": 27062, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McCabe, Tom", "ID": 2228, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Tom McCabe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Parliament (Mr Tom McCabe): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 659.0, "ContributionID": 711627, "EditedText": "This has been a thoughtful and sensitive debate that shows respect for the memory of the soldiers. That says much for our Parliament. At the start of the debate you reminded us, Presiding Officer, that defence is a wholly reserved matter under the terms of the Scotland Act 1998 and that the right of final decision on the matters covered by today's motion is reserved to the United Kingdom Government. I think it is fair to say that both Parliaments would guard their own areas of responsibility. It would be wise for our Parliament here in Edinburgh to judge with caution the subjects that are outwith our legislative competence that we choose to debate. Having said that, it is extremely important that our colleagues in the UK Parliament are aware of the views expressed in this Parliament. I am happy to assure the chamber that I will forward a copy of today's proceedings to the United Kingdom minister with responsibility for this area. Today, we mark the 81st anniversary of the armistice that brought the first world war to an end. We remember with humility and gratitude the debt that we owe to those who lost their lives, in whatever circumstances. No one can remain unmoved by the study of the conditions that those who fought in that war had to face. I appreciate the depth of feeling that motivates the continuing calls for a pardon for those who were executed for military offences. Between 1914 and 1920, approximately 20,000 men were convicted of military offences for which the death penalty could have been imposed. Approximately 3,000 were sentenced to death, but the vast majority of sentences were commuted. More than 300 men were executed for military offences. I agree that it is not too late to bring comfort to the families of those soldiers. When John Reid was Minister for the Armed Forces, he undertook a careful and sympathetic review of this complex subject. That study was preceded by numerous internal and external inquiries initiated by previous Governments. They all have two things in common. First, all reached similar conclusions based on legal and medical evidence. Secondly, they reflected the long- standing concern surrounding the trials and their outcome. The review considered all aspects of the matter. The cases were examined individually and, to set the work in context, John Reid personally looked into more than 100 of the case files. The review also examined the law and procedures in force at the time and under which the trials, sentence, confirmation and implementation were conducted. With regard to the law, and to set this question of pardon in its proper context, it is important to remember that the sentences were delivered from a properly constituted legal court. The review also examined the present legal position on the consideration of pardons. Pardon is an exceptional and rare legal remedy that is recommended only when there is clear evidence to suggest that either the findings or the sentence in a case were wrong. It is realised that very little evidence in relation to these cases has survived. From the papers that remain, the review found that it was unlikely that any of the cases would be found wanting on procedural grounds. Of more fundamental importance was the lack of medical evidence on the condition of the men at the time of their offences. It would not be possible for a modern psychiatrist to form a proper judgement retrospectively on the state of any of the individuals concerned. It was, therefore, concluded that the consideration of formal legal pardons would, in effect, leave most—and probably all—of those who were executed re- condemned by an accident of history. However, it was not felt that leaving the matter there was an outcome that was compassionate or humane. I wholeheartedly support the view expressed in the review—that in addressing one perceived injustice, John Reid did not wish to create another. Rather, he wanted to be fair to all. I am confident that members of this Parliament wholly support that view. Fairness for all those who were executed is the principle that lay behind the most recent review, and I have no doubt that it is what lies behind today's debate. Although we accept the real difficulties that lie in the path of considering legal pardons, we seek, as the review sought, to place this matter in its true, broader perspective—the suffering and sacrifice of so many during the first world war. During the debate last year in the House of Commons, John Reid said that the passage of time had distanced us from the evidence and rendered impossible the formality of pardon. He also added a few critical words. He expressed the view that \"the passage of time . . . has also cast great doubt on the stigma of condemnation.\"—Official Report, House of Commons, 24 July 1998; Vol 316, c 1374. We should acknowledge that those who were executed had given good and loyal service and that they were victims of a ghastly war. We should remember them along with, and in the same way as, all those who died. We are approaching the end of a war-torn century, and it is appropriate that all those who have made the ultimate sacrifice are acknowledged afresh. It is particularly appropriate that we do so today. Colin Campbell's remarks about recognition were most appropriate. Two very important initiatives were announced as a result of the review. The first was the Government's insistence on adding the names of those who were executed to the war memorials and the books of remembrance. The second, and perhaps most important, was the Government's signalled intention to abolish the death penalty for military offences, which has now been done. I have no doubt that the Government would have wanted a more comprehensive outcome. Equally, I have no doubt that previous Governments would have wanted to reach a different conclusion. However, although we may want that, it would be dangerous to throw aside legal precedent and decide on the basis of good intention rather than hard evidence. No matter how much any minister or Government may want that evidence to exist, if it does not it would be wrong to cast aside the basic tenets of democracy and the rule of law for which all those men fought and died. For the reasons that I have outlined tonight, I believe that the place of those victims in the wider national remembrance has been secured for perpetuity. I express the view that I believe reflects that of all members: that those men should finally rest in peace.", "EditedTextHTML": "This has been a thoughtful and sensitive debate that shows respect for the memory of the soldiers. That says much for our Parliament.

At the start of the debate you reminded us, Presiding Officer, that defence is a wholly reserved matter under the terms of the Scotland Act 1998 and that the right of final decision on the matters covered by today's motion is reserved to the United Kingdom Government.

I think it is fair to say that both Parliaments would guard their own areas of responsibility. It would be wise for our Parliament here in Edinburgh to judge with caution the subjects that are outwith our legislative competence that we choose to debate.

Having said that, it is extremely important that our colleagues in the UK Parliament are aware of the views expressed in this Parliament. I am happy to assure the chamber that I will forward a copy of today's proceedings to the United Kingdom minister with responsibility for this area.

Today, we mark the 81st anniversary of the armistice that brought the first world war to an end. We remember with humility and gratitude the debt that we owe to those who lost their lives, in whatever circumstances.

No one can remain unmoved by the study of the conditions that those who fought in that war had to face. I appreciate the depth of feeling that motivates the continuing calls for a pardon for those who were executed for military offences.

Between 1914 and 1920, approximately 20,000 men were convicted of military offences for which the death penalty could have been imposed. Approximately 3,000 were sentenced to death, but the vast majority of sentences were commuted.

More than 300 men were executed for military offences. I agree that it is not too late to bring comfort to the families of those soldiers.

When John Reid was Minister for the Armed Forces, he undertook a careful and sympathetic review of this complex subject. That study was preceded by numerous internal and external inquiries initiated by previous Governments. They all have two things in common. First, all reached similar conclusions based on legal and medical evidence. Secondly, they reflected the long- standing concern surrounding the trials and their outcome.

The review considered all aspects of the matter. The cases were examined individually and, to set the work in context, John Reid personally looked into more than 100 of the case files. The review also examined the law and procedures in force at the time and under which the trials, sentence, confirmation and implementation were conducted.

With regard to the law, and to set this question of pardon in its proper context, it is important to remember that the sentences were delivered from a properly constituted legal court. The review also examined the present legal position on the consideration of pardons. Pardon is an exceptional and rare legal remedy that is recommended only when there is clear evidence to suggest that either the findings or the sentence in a case were wrong.

It is realised that very little evidence in relation to these cases has survived. From the papers that remain, the review found that it was unlikely that any of the cases would be found wanting on procedural grounds.

Of more fundamental importance was the lack of medical evidence on the condition of the men at the time of their offences. It would not be possible for a modern psychiatrist to form a proper judgement retrospectively on the state of any of the individuals concerned. It was, therefore, concluded that the consideration of formal legal pardons would, in effect, leave most—and probably all—of those who were executed re- condemned by an accident of history. However, it was not felt that leaving the matter there was an outcome that was compassionate or humane.

I wholeheartedly support the view expressed in the review—that in addressing one perceived injustice, John Reid did not wish to create another. Rather, he wanted to be fair to all. I am confident that members of this Parliament wholly support that view.

Fairness for all those who were executed is the principle that lay behind the most recent review, and I have no doubt that it is what lies behind today's debate. Although we accept the real difficulties that lie in the path of considering legal pardons, we seek, as the review sought, to place this matter in its true, broader perspective—the suffering and sacrifice of so many during the first world war.

During the debate last year in the House of Commons, John Reid said that the passage of time had distanced us from the evidence and rendered impossible the formality of pardon. He also added a few critical words. He expressed the view that

\"the passage of time . . . has also cast great doubt on the stigma of condemnation.\"—[Official Report, House of Commons, 24 July 1998; Vol 316, c 1374.]

We should acknowledge that those who were executed had given good and loyal service and that they were victims of a ghastly war. We should remember them along with, and in the same way as, all those who died. We are approaching the end of a war-torn century, and it is appropriate that all those who have made the ultimate sacrifice are acknowledged afresh. It is particularly appropriate that we do so today. Colin Campbell's remarks about recognition were most appropriate.

Two very important initiatives were announced as a result of the review. The first was the Government's insistence on adding the names of those who were executed to the war memorials and the books of remembrance. The second, and perhaps most important, was the Government's signalled intention to abolish the death penalty for military offences, which has now been done. I have no doubt that the Government would have wanted a more comprehensive outcome. Equally, I have no doubt that previous Governments would have wanted to reach a different conclusion.

However, although we may want that, it would be dangerous to throw aside legal precedent and decide on the basis of good intention rather than hard evidence. No matter how much any minister or Government may want that evidence to exist, if it does not it would be wrong to cast aside the basic tenets of democracy and the rule of law for which all those men fought and died.

For the reasons that I have outlined tonight, I believe that the place of those victims in the wider national remembrance has been secured for perpetuity. I express the view that I believe reflects that of all members: that those men should finally rest in peace.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.513892+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711628", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pardon for Executed Soldiers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27062, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 618.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 618.0, "ID": 27062, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 661.0, "ContributionID": 711628, "EditedText": "Meeting closed at 17:32.", "EditedTextHTML": "Meeting closed at 17:32.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.513892+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C711416", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27033, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 129.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 129.0, "ID": 27033, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 215.0, "ContributionID": 711416, "EditedText": "I am glad that the minister has put on record the clear and important distinction between no risks being identified and no incidents occurring. How does that distinction relate to the firm commitments on ministerial responsibility and accountability that Mr McLeish made in his opening remarks, when he quoted the Prime Minister and said that the buck stops with ministers over the identification, supervision and management of risk?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am glad that the minister has put on record the clear and important distinction between no risks being identified and no incidents occurring. How does that distinction relate to the firm commitments on ministerial responsibility and accountability that Mr McLeish made in his opening remarks, when he quoted the Prime Minister and said that the buck stops with ministers over the identification, supervision and management of risk?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:28:33.8639665+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1783E59P270C711456", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27036, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 265.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27037, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 266.0, "QuestionHeading": "Domestic Violence Service Development Fund", "QuestionHeadingID": 27039, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 274.0, "DisplayOrder": 274.0, "ID": 27039, "ParentID": 27037 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Baillie, Jackie", "ID": 1783, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumbarton" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Jackie Baillie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Jackie Baillie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 281.0, "ContributionID": 711456, "EditedText": "I advise Mr Paterson that the full package is £8 million. We are putting money specifically into the three Ps—prevention, protection and provision.", "EditedTextHTML": "I advise Mr Paterson that the full package is £8 million. We are putting money specifically into the three Ps—prevention, protection and provision.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:28:33.8639665+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1857E136P222C711461", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27036, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 265.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27037, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 266.0, "QuestionHeading": "Ambulance Staff", "QuestionHeadingID": 27041, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 290.0, "DisplayOrder": 290.0, "ID": 27041, "ParentID": 27037 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeill, Pauline", "ID": 1857, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Kelvin" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Pauline McNeill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Pauline McNeill: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 293.0, "ContributionID": 711461, "EditedText": "Does the minister agree that ambulance technicians and paramedics are not equipped to anticipate violence at the scene of an emergency but often experience violence, and that some personnel suffer serious assaults and find it hard to return to work? Will the minister undertake an investigation into the issue, considering such matters as a new statutory offence and the use of protective clothing and counselling services? Will she also join me in welcoming the members of Canadian public services unions who are here today?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the minister agree that ambulance technicians and paramedics are not equipped to anticipate violence at the scene of an emergency but often experience violence, and that some personnel suffer serious assaults and find it hard to return to work? Will the minister undertake an investigation into the issue, considering such matters as a new statutory offence and the use of protective clothing and counselling services? Will she also join me in welcoming the members of Canadian public services unions who are here today?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:28:33.8639665+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C711338", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27031, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27031, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 39.0, "ContributionID": 711338, "EditedText": "I have not been invited.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have not been invited.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:26:39.873439+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C711355", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27031, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27031, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 74.0, "ContributionID": 711355, "EditedText": "I take the minister's point. The purpose of my speech, as I said, is to ask some searching questions on behalf of the public interest. If I am not here to ask searching questions on behalf of the public interest, I do not know what I am here to do. It is important that we test what the Government has said. I will compliment the range of work that has been undertaken in a moment, but some questions need to be asked. It might be comforting to know that the Executive and the executive agencies are reported as having reached blue status, but the minister must reassure the Parliament and the country that all the vital services on which we depend are able to operate during the critical period that we are discussing. I listened to what the minister said in his intervention and in his statement, when he made it clear that our infrastructure is in place. However, I refer him to a statement that the Deputy Minister for Children and Education made the other day, which posed a number of questions about the preparedness of individual schools for the millennium bug, despite the clean bill of health that has been given to local authorities. I would like to raise four key issues. My first point relates to the focus on 1 January 2000. We talk about the millennium bug, the year 2000 and the millennium date change problem. However, there is a wider date discontinuity problem which, according to some independent experts, might affect the reliability of software for at least the first 30 to 40 years of the next century. We need to understand and appreciate what on-going commitments the Government has to continue the investigation that has been carried out into preparation for the millennium. I say that not to take anything away from those who have worked hard to bring us to the point at which we find ourselves today, but to ensure that we capitalise on the work that has been carried out and that the millennium date change problem is dealt with in the context of a general date discontinuity issue.", "EditedTextHTML": "I take the minister's point. The purpose of my speech, as I said, is to ask some searching questions on behalf of the public interest. If I am not here to ask searching questions on behalf of the public interest, I do not know what I am here to do.

It is important that we test what the Government has said. I will compliment the range of work that has been undertaken in a moment, but some questions need to be asked. It might be comforting to know that the Executive and the executive agencies are reported as having reached blue status, but the minister must reassure the Parliament and the country that all the vital services on which we depend are able to operate during the critical period that we are discussing.

I listened to what the minister said in his intervention and in his statement, when he made it clear that our infrastructure is in place. However, I refer him to a statement that the Deputy Minister for Children and Education made the other day, which posed a number of questions about the preparedness of individual schools for the millennium bug, despite the clean bill of health that has been given to local authorities.

I would like to raise four key issues. My first point relates to the focus on 1 January 2000. We talk about the millennium bug, the year 2000 and the millennium date change problem. However, there is a wider date discontinuity problem which, according to some independent experts, might affect the reliability of software for at least the first 30 to 40 years of the next century. We need to understand and appreciate what on-going commitments the Government has to continue the investigation that has been carried out into preparation for the millennium. I say that not to take anything away from those who have worked hard to bring us to the point at which we find ourselves today, but to ensure that we capitalise on the work that has been carried out and that the millennium date change problem is dealt with in the context of a general date discontinuity issue.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:26:39.873439+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C711362", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27031, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27031, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 90.0, "ContributionID": 711362, "EditedText": "There is a question about the seriousness with which the issues that Miss Goldie raised are being taken. I hope that the bureau will look at the record of that point in the Official Report, and of the point that I made yesterday on the amount of time available for the European debate, which was far too short. I remind Mr Lyon that the Executive—the people who run the place—has a majority on the bureau. That is not always taken into account when debate times are set.", "EditedTextHTML": "There is a question about the seriousness with which the issues that Miss Goldie raised are being taken. I hope that the bureau will look at the record of that point in the Official Report, and of the point that I made yesterday on the amount of time available for the European debate, which was far too short. I remind Mr Lyon that the Executive—the people who run the place—has a majority on the bureau. That is not always taken into account when debate times are set.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:26:39.873439+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C711342", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27031, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27031, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fergus Ewing (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 47.0, "ContributionID": 711342, "EditedText": "If I were prepared to believe anything that the Executive told me, it would certainly be statements from Mr McLeish. Interruption. That was a compliment, Presiding Officer. Can we be confident about the state of readiness when we learn that the Government leaflet to which the minister referred has been produced, at a cost of £9.4 million, in English, Bengali, Greek, Turkish, Chinese, Hindi, Urdu, Punjabi, Vietnamese, Arabic, Gujarati, Somali and Welsh, but not in Gaelic? Can the minister say whether the Scottish Executive was even consulted about that metropolitan omission? Even if Gaels can, by and large, read the leaflet in English, none the less the omission of even considering the Gaelic community is a millennium snub.", "EditedTextHTML": "If I were prepared to believe anything that the Executive told me, it would certainly be statements from Mr McLeish. [Interruption.] That was a compliment, Presiding Officer.

Can we be confident about the state of readiness when we learn that the Government leaflet to which the minister referred has been produced, at a cost of £9.4 million, in English, Bengali, Greek, Turkish, Chinese, Hindi, Urdu, Punjabi, Vietnamese, Arabic, Gujarati, Somali and Welsh, but not in Gaelic? Can the minister say whether the Scottish Executive was even consulted about that metropolitan omission? Even if Gaels can, by and large, read the leaflet in English, none the less the omission of even considering the Gaelic community is a millennium snub.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:01:03.9549326+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C711388", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27033, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 129.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 129.0, "ID": 27033, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fergus Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 156.0, "ContributionID": 711388, "EditedText": "If Mr Stone is going to make points of that nature—and I am not here to defend Annabel Goldie—could he advise Parliament on how many occasions the Liberal Democrat representative on the Parliamentary Bureau has voted against, or disagreed with, the Labour representative.", "EditedTextHTML": "If Mr Stone is going to make points of that nature—and I am not here to defend Annabel Goldie—could he advise Parliament on how many occasions the Liberal Democrat representative on the Parliamentary Bureau has voted against, or disagreed with, the Labour representative.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:01:03.9549326+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C711396", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27033, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 129.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 129.0, "ID": 27033, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fergus Ewing (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 174.0, "ContributionID": 711396, "EditedText": "None of us in this chamber wishes to be churlish about the Executive's approach or to do less than congratulate all those who have been involved in protecting public safety in regard to the Y2K problem. However, I recall that someone once said that there were only two certainties in life: death and taxation. To those I would add a third: human error and fallibility. My experience of life so far, for what it is worth,is that human error is difficult to avoid, and that when it arises, it is usually followed by further human error. When something goes wrong, it is very often followed by something else going wrong, perhaps as a logical consequence of the first error. As a technophobe among technophiles, it seems to me that technology is intermittently useful, but that when it malfunctions, all sorts of undesirable consequences arise. The concerns that have been expressed in this debate relate more to human error than to the lack of technological skill of those who have carried out the excellent work to prepare us for the millennium. It is ironic that the minister referred to the reports that were issued on 23 July, 5 October and 29 October to members of this Parliament on the progress of millennium readiness, because on 29 October we saw human error at play in Glasgow City Council—not for the first time in that august body, one might reflect. None the less, it was a very serious error that has led to many people becoming dissatisfied—dissatisfied, on this occasion, at not receiving a football ticket. The error was one of lack of preparation. I imagine that the Executive will say that there have been the fullest of preparations for the millennium. As Mr Gallie pointed out, Mr McLeish has stated openly that the buck stops with him. Rather a dangerous statement to make, but one that we have all noted. We appreciate that, in a spirit of candour, he has accepted responsibly, and I praise him for it. We have seen human error at play in a number of delays that have been highlighted by contributors to this debate. Sandra White has referred to the problems of staffing at the Ministry of Defence. Duncan Hamilton drew attention to the issue of the delay in securing system compliance from January to December. Elaine Smith talked about the preparedness of the fire service in relation to resources that were placed in the hands of the police. We have heard from Nicola Sturgeon about the preparedness of school computers. Each of those speakers made valid points, as did other members of all parties. To delay in the accomplishment of something is a human failing. We are trying to guard against human error, which is an impossible task. Some organisations have been anxious to declare that they are millennium compliant and that they are at code blue when they are not. We heard today that one organisation that claimed to be at code blue was at code amber. Who among us is ready to issue confessions at any moment? Confession does not appear to be an instinctive human characteristic. I wonder how many of the organisations that claim to be code blue actually are. None of us in this debate undervalues the efforts of those who have played a part in ensuring that public safety is preserved, especially in the health service. I am sure that John Swinney, Mrs Scanlon and Miss Goldie value those efforts. It is relevant to point out, however, that there are many issues that we all considered to be more pressing and more worthy of debate than the Y2K problem. I am grateful that I have been allowed 10 minutes for this closing speech. That is twice as long as I have been allowed in this Parliament before. I do not know whether my material is up to the Herculean challenge of filling in all the time that I have. I am happy to take interventions, incidentally.", "EditedTextHTML": "None of us in this chamber wishes to be churlish about the Executive's approach or to do less than congratulate all those who have been involved in protecting public safety in regard to the Y2K problem. However, I recall that someone once said that there were only two certainties in life: death and taxation. To those I would add a third: human error and fallibility.

My experience of life so far, for what it is worth,

is that human error is difficult to avoid, and that when it arises, it is usually followed by further human error. When something goes wrong, it is very often followed by something else going wrong, perhaps as a logical consequence of the first error. As a technophobe among technophiles, it seems to me that technology is intermittently useful, but that when it malfunctions, all sorts of undesirable consequences arise. The concerns that have been expressed in this debate relate more to human error than to the lack of technological skill of those who have carried out the excellent work to prepare us for the millennium.

It is ironic that the minister referred to the reports that were issued on 23 July, 5 October and 29 October to members of this Parliament on the progress of millennium readiness, because on 29 October we saw human error at play in Glasgow City Council—not for the first time in that august body, one might reflect. None the less, it was a very serious error that has led to many people becoming dissatisfied—dissatisfied, on this occasion, at not receiving a football ticket. The error was one of lack of preparation. I imagine that the Executive will say that there have been the fullest of preparations for the millennium. As Mr Gallie pointed out, Mr McLeish has stated openly that the buck stops with him. Rather a dangerous statement to make, but one that we have all noted. We appreciate that, in a spirit of candour, he has accepted responsibly, and I praise him for it.

We have seen human error at play in a number of delays that have been highlighted by contributors to this debate. Sandra White has referred to the problems of staffing at the Ministry of Defence. Duncan Hamilton drew attention to the issue of the delay in securing system compliance from January to December. Elaine Smith talked about the preparedness of the fire service in relation to resources that were placed in the hands of the police. We have heard from Nicola Sturgeon about the preparedness of school computers. Each of those speakers made valid points, as did other members of all parties.

To delay in the accomplishment of something is a human failing. We are trying to guard against human error, which is an impossible task. Some organisations have been anxious to declare that they are millennium compliant and that they are at code blue when they are not. We heard today that one organisation that claimed to be at code blue was at code amber. Who among us is ready to issue confessions at any moment? Confession does not appear to be an instinctive human characteristic. I wonder how many of the organisations that claim to be code blue actually are.

None of us in this debate undervalues the efforts of those who have played a part in ensuring that public safety is preserved, especially in the health service. I am sure that John Swinney, Mrs Scanlon and Miss Goldie value those efforts. It is relevant to point out, however, that there are many issues that we all considered to be more pressing and more worthy of debate than the Y2K problem.

I am grateful that I have been allowed 10 minutes for this closing speech. That is twice as long as I have been allowed in this Parliament before. I do not know whether my material is up to the Herculean challenge of filling in all the time that I have. I am happy to take interventions, incidentally.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:01:03.9549326+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C711398", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27033, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 129.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 129.0, "ID": 27033, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fergus Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 178.0, "ContributionID": 711398, "EditedText": "I was worried for a moment that I might have to agree with Mr Monteith, which I would not normally do. I accept, however, that he has raised a legitimate problem. Another problem was raised by the speech which showed most technical knowledge, that of Fiona McLeod, who has had to leave the chamber to go to a librarians conference. She noted that the problem will not end on 1 January but will continue for decades. I must confess that I did not understand the reasons for that but I hope that the minister will enlighten me about the matter and reassure the public. My habitual lack of confidence in the Executive's protestations was reinforced by something that I read this morning in that fount of all wisdom, the Daily Record. The story is headed \"Don't be late dome\" and refers to the fact that the grandest and most expensive project in the history of construction in the UK—the millennium dome— might have been infected by the millennium bug. It will not be ready by the deadline of 1 January 2000 that Mr Blair set. Construction should have been finished by the end of this month but five out of the 14 main exhibits will not be ready. The SNP is not overcome with grief at the prospect that we may be unable to visit the millennium dome on 1 January. I can say with great confidence that such a visit on that date, or on any date in future, did not feature among the plans of any member of the 35-strong SNP group. We believe that the millennium dome could be the greatest waste of money that anyone could imagine. I am pleased to see the Scottish Conservatives nodding furiously, as I recall that a certain Mr Michael Heseltine dreamed up the idea in the first place. It is lovely to see devolution infect the ranks of the Conservatives in the Scottish Parliament and that they are taking a stoutly different line to their erstwhile London masters.In all seriousness, there is grave concern in Scotland about money being wasted, especially on white elephants such as the millennium dome, which apparently will cost £57 a ticket. My constituents in Inverness have first to travel to London—a difficult enough task in itself, especially since the cancellation of the London to Heathrow link that is so important to them. They will have to spend a small fortune to visit—", "EditedTextHTML": "I was worried for a moment that I might have to agree with Mr Monteith, which I would not normally do. I accept, however, that he has raised a legitimate problem.

Another problem was raised by the speech which showed most technical knowledge, that of Fiona McLeod, who has had to leave the chamber to go to a librarians conference. She noted that the problem will not end on 1 January but will continue for decades. I must confess that I did not understand the reasons for that but I hope that the minister will enlighten me about the matter and reassure the public.

My habitual lack of confidence in the Executive's protestations was reinforced by something that I read this morning in that fount of all wisdom, the Daily Record. The story is headed \"Don't be late dome\" and refers to the fact that the grandest and most expensive project in the history of construction in the UK—the millennium dome— might have been infected by the millennium bug. It will not be ready by the deadline of 1 January 2000 that Mr Blair set. Construction should have been finished by the end of this month but five out of the 14 main exhibits will not be ready.

The SNP is not overcome with grief at the prospect that we may be unable to visit the millennium dome on 1 January. I can say with great confidence that such a visit on that date, or on any date in future, did not feature among the plans of any member of the 35-strong SNP group. We believe that the millennium dome could be the greatest waste of money that anyone could imagine. I am pleased to see the Scottish Conservatives nodding furiously, as I recall that a certain Mr Michael Heseltine dreamed up the idea in the first place. It is lovely to see devolution infect the ranks of the Conservatives in the Scottish Parliament and that they are taking a stoutly

different line to their erstwhile London masters.

In all seriousness, there is grave concern in Scotland about money being wasted, especially on white elephants such as the millennium dome, which apparently will cost £57 a ticket. My constituents in Inverness have first to travel to London—a difficult enough task in itself, especially since the cancellation of the London to Heathrow link that is so important to them. They will have to spend a small fortune to visit—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:01:03.9549326+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C711404", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27033, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 129.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 129.0, "ID": 27033, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fergus Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 190.0, "ContributionID": 711404, "EditedText": "Perhaps the newsagents believe that there is no demand. I am sure that Mr Harding would know more about that than me.", "EditedTextHTML": "Perhaps the newsagents believe that there is no demand. I am sure that Mr Harding would know more about that than me.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:01:03.9549326+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C711406", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27033, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 129.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 129.0, "ID": 27033, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fergus Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 194.0, "ContributionID": 711406, "EditedText": "Brian has produced even more helpful suggestions in this debate. I raise this matter for two reasons: first, it shows that human error is here with us; secondly, we have spent three hours on the matter, when there are far more serious issues that we could have debated. There is no need for me to list those issues. We all recognise that this is a serious issue and have said as much, while poking a little fun at the Executive, which I hope that it can take. Mr McLeish, in particular, is able to take a joke better than others whom I will not mention.", "EditedTextHTML": "Brian has produced even more helpful suggestions in this debate.

I raise this matter for two reasons: first, it shows that human error is here with us; secondly, we have spent three hours on the matter, when there are far more serious issues that we could have debated. There is no need for me to list those issues.

We all recognise that this is a serious issue and have said as much, while poking a little fun at the Executive, which I hope that it can take. Mr McLeish, in particular, is able to take a joke better than others whom I will not mention.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:01:03.9549326+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C711408", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27033, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 129.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 129.0, "ID": 27033, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fergus Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 198.0, "ContributionID": 711408, "EditedText": "No, I am too much of a gentleman to do that—at least not in such a public forum. We support the efforts of all those who have helped to prepare for public safety in Y2K. We remain unconvinced that this debate has been a useful expenditure of time in the chamber, and hope that the minister, Mr MacKay, will answer the serious points that have been raised by members of all parties.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I am too much of a gentleman to do that—at least not in such a public forum.

We support the efforts of all those who have helped to prepare for public safety in Y2K. We remain unconvinced that this debate has been a useful expenditure of time in the chamber, and hope that the minister, Mr MacKay, will answer the serious points that have been raised by members of all parties.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:01:03.9549326+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C711464", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27036, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 265.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27037, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 266.0, "QuestionHeading": "Rural Economy", "QuestionHeadingID": 27042, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 297.0, "DisplayOrder": 297.0, "ID": 27042, "ParentID": 27037 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fergus Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 300.0, "ContributionID": 711464, "EditedText": "Is the minister aware of the anger felt by many hundreds of farmers throughout the Highlands and Islands who were led to expect that they would receive financial assistance under the agricultural business improvement scheme? Is he aware of the specific, unequivocal written assurance that was made on 18 February 1999 in a letter to Jim Wallace by Lord Sewel, the then agriculture minister, that any upsurge in applications under the scheme would be met? Is he aware that there is a deep sense of betrayal among farmers who have spent thousands of pounds expecting to receive the money and who will now be let down by the Executive?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is the minister aware of the anger felt by many hundreds of farmers throughout the Highlands and Islands who were led to expect that they would receive financial assistance under the agricultural business improvement scheme? Is he aware of the specific, unequivocal written assurance that was made on 18 February 1999 in a letter to Jim Wallace by Lord Sewel, the then agriculture minister, that any upsurge in applications under the scheme would be met? Is he aware that there is a deep sense of betrayal among farmers who have spent thousands of pounds expecting to receive the money and who will now be let down by the Executive?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:01:17.5713192+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C711368", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27031, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27031, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fergus Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 103.0, "ContributionID": 711368, "EditedText": "Although I endorse the member's sentiments of approval and appreciation of the efforts made by those involved in ensuring millennium compliance and public safety, I am at a loss to understand what difference the debate will make in any practical sense. What will it achieve to ensure additional compliance?", "EditedTextHTML": "Although I endorse the member's sentiments of approval and appreciation of the efforts made by those involved in ensuring millennium compliance and public safety, I am at a loss to understand what difference the debate will make in any practical sense. What will it achieve to ensure additional compliance?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:01:03.9549326+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2180E179P471C711495", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27036, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 265.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27037, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 266.0, "QuestionHeading": "Information and Communications Technology", "QuestionHeadingID": 27048, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 361.0, "DisplayOrder": 361.0, "ID": 27048, "ParentID": 27037 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lochhead, Richard", "ID": 2180, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Lochhead", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Richard Lochhead: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 368.0, "ContributionID": 711495, "EditedText": "—and learn a variety of skills. It is essential that they are given the proper back-up—", "EditedTextHTML": "—and learn a variety of skills. It is essential that they are given the proper back-up—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:55.944805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2180E179P471C711497", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27036, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 265.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27037, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 266.0, "QuestionHeading": "Information and Communications Technology", "QuestionHeadingID": 27048, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 361.0, "DisplayOrder": 361.0, "ID": 27048, "ParentID": 27037 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lochhead, Richard", "ID": 2180, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Lochhead", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Richard Lochhead: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 372.0, "ContributionID": 711497, "EditedText": "—but there is concern among teachers that they are not going to get it. Will the minister give an assurance that he will put the teachers' concerns to the local authorities?", "EditedTextHTML": "—but there is concern among teachers that they are not going to get it. Will the minister give an assurance that he will put the teachers' concerns to the local authorities?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:55.944805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C711374", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27031, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27031, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 118.0, "ContributionID": 711374, "EditedText": "Like my colleagues on the SNP benches, I welcome the minister's statement. I am more than happy at the outset to acknowledge that preparations for the millennium and the provision of information to the public have been good and, largely, extremely reassuring. However, that is not an excuse for complacency. Fiona McLeod, among others, has raised issues this morning that forcibly bring home that point. I want to concentrate on two issues. The first has been touched on by previous speakers and was to some extent addressed by the minister. The information provided to the public focuses almost exclusively on the millennium date change. Notwithstanding the minister's comments, there is a widespread public perception that, if we all wake up on the morning of 1 January next year and the world has not collapsed around us, the problem has been averted and there will be nothing to worry about. In fact, as Fiona McLeod outlined, the exact opposite is the case. The date discontinuity problem could affect the reliability of software for 30 or 40 years after the millennium. The date change from 31 December to 1 January may not be the most problematic one at all. It would be reassuring for members of the Parliament and the public if the minister spent some time outlining how the Executive intends to deal with the problem in the longer term and to keep public awareness high enough to ensure that steps are taken to avoid or minimise disruption in the future. The second issue is the generality of the information being provided to the public. We know that all 32 local authorities in Scotland achieved blue status in October this year, but we know less about the readiness of the different sectors within local authorities. The booklet that is dropping through all our letterboxes this week, for example, goes into detail about the issues affecting the health service, but mentions issues facing schools only in passing. I would like to think that that is because there is great confidence in the state of readiness of individual schools, but that may not be the case. Peter Peacock, the Deputy Minister for Children and Education, raised serious concerns among the public when he said on 8 November that \"it is important at this stage for schools to sit down and consider how they will work around any problems when they go back in January.\" When the minister said that, there were 53 days to go until the millennium and it was little over a month until schools shut down for the Christmas and new year break. The minister's statement can be viewed in one of two ways. It was either more than a little belated or it was unnecessary. Either way, the statement will have caused some panic among head teachers in schools around Scotland. School contingency planning should surely have been part of local authorities' millennium operating regimes and local authorities should have been required to demonstrate readiness before being given blue light status. Schools face a number of challenges. Over the past couple of years, they have had an influx of second-hand and refurbished computers. I look to the deputy minister for reassurance that those computers have been made millennium compatible. Are we confident that science equipment, boiler systems and other electronically controlled equipment will not malfunction, either at the millennium or at any time in the future? Those are important issues about which there was great confidence until the Deputy Minister for Children and Education issued his statement earlier this week, raising questions about the state of readiness in Scotland's schools. I ask the Deputy Minister for Justice to address the specific points that I have raised and, in particular, to outline the measures that will be taken to safeguard and monitor schools' contingency planning from now until the new year, so that we can be confident that Scotland's children can return to school in January without having to face disruption caused by the millennium bug.", "EditedTextHTML": "Like my colleagues on the SNP benches, I welcome the minister's statement. I am more than happy at the outset to acknowledge that preparations for the millennium and the provision of information to the public have been good and, largely, extremely reassuring. However, that is not an excuse for complacency. Fiona McLeod, among others, has raised issues this morning that forcibly bring home that point.

I want to concentrate on two issues. The first has been touched on by previous speakers and was to some extent addressed by the minister. The information provided to the public focuses almost exclusively on the millennium date change. Notwithstanding the minister's comments, there is a widespread public perception that, if we all wake up on the morning of 1 January next year and the world has not collapsed around us, the problem has been averted and there will be nothing to worry about. In fact, as Fiona McLeod outlined, the exact opposite is the case.

The date discontinuity problem could affect the reliability of software for 30 or 40 years after the millennium. The date change from 31 December to 1 January may not be the most problematic one at all. It would be reassuring for members of the Parliament and the public if the minister spent some time outlining how the Executive intends to deal with the problem in the longer term and to keep public awareness high enough to ensure that steps are taken to avoid or minimise disruption in the future.

The second issue is the generality of the information being provided to the public. We know that all 32 local authorities in Scotland achieved blue status in October this year, but we know less about the readiness of the different sectors within local authorities. The booklet that is dropping through all our letterboxes this week, for example, goes into detail about the issues affecting the health service, but mentions issues facing schools only in passing. I would like to think that that is because there is great confidence in the state of readiness of individual schools, but that may not be the case. Peter Peacock, the Deputy Minister for Children and Education, raised serious concerns among the public when he said on 8 November that

\"it is important at this stage for schools to sit down and consider how they will work around any problems when they go back in January.\"

When the minister said that, there were 53 days to go until the millennium and it was little over a month until schools shut down for the Christmas and new year break.

The minister's statement can be viewed in one of two ways. It was either more than a little belated or it was unnecessary. Either way, the statement will have caused some panic among head teachers in schools around Scotland. School contingency planning should surely have been part of local authorities' millennium operating regimes and local authorities should have been required to demonstrate readiness before being given blue light status.

Schools face a number of challenges. Over the past couple of years, they have had an influx of second-hand and refurbished computers. I look to the deputy minister for reassurance that those computers have been made millennium compatible. Are we confident that science equipment, boiler systems and other electronically controlled equipment will not malfunction, either at the millennium or at any time in the future?

Those are important issues about which there was great confidence until the Deputy Minister for Children and Education issued his statement earlier this week, raising questions about the state of readiness in Scotland's schools. I ask the Deputy Minister for Justice to address the specific points that I have raised and, in particular, to outline the measures that will be taken to safeguard and monitor schools' contingency planning from now until the new year, so that we can be confident that Scotland's children can return to school in January without having to face disruption caused by the millennium bug.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:00:50.3207435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C711329", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27031, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27031, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 21.0, "ContributionID": 711329, "EditedText": "Those facilities have also been covered. They are all at blue and are all millennium ready. I shall provide details about that too, so that Miss Goldie can be reassured. I can also assure members that, despite the historic event that is to take place on Saturday, we are completely satisfied with telecommunications. Telecommunications companies have been closely involved in all our deliberations, they will be involved in SILC on the night and our discussions with them have been productive. I want to thank the utilities. They have responded magnificently. They see the difficulties at first hand, and I am sure that they are ready for 31 December. I have no reason to doubt that they will deliver on the night.", "EditedTextHTML": "Those facilities have also been covered. They are all at blue and are all millennium ready. I shall provide details about that too, so that Miss Goldie can be reassured.

I can also assure members that, despite the historic event that is to take place on Saturday, we are completely satisfied with telecommunications. Telecommunications companies have been closely involved in all our deliberations, they will be involved in SILC on the night and our discussions with them have been productive.

I want to thank the utilities. They have responded magnificently. They see the difficulties at first hand, and I am sure that they are ready for 31 December. I have no reason to doubt that they will deliver on the night.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711323", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27031, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27031, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 9.0, "ContributionID": 711323, "EditedText": "Thank you very much. I take it that those members who pressed their buttons want to ask questions. If any member has pressed their button, hoping to speak in the debate, they should press it again now to remove their name from the list that I have in front of me. I invite questions for clarification.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you very much. I take it that those members who pressed their buttons want to ask questions. If any member has pressed their button, hoping to speak in the debate, they should press it again now to remove their name from the list that I have in front of me. I invite questions for clarification.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C711325", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27031, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27031, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 13.0, "ContributionID": 711325, "EditedText": "No. We seek a process for the private sector that will include information, advice, exhortation and help, to take companies to a point of millennium readiness that is equivalent to the amber status that exists in the infrastructure. There has been a magnificent and successful programme. Most of the larger companies—partly because of their resources—have been able to comply and progress. During the run-up to 2000, a lot of the small and medium enterprises may also have reached that point. My main reason for raising this issue today was to give members the opportunity, on an all-party, all-Government basis, to tell the public that this is not a partisan point, but an issue that it is in the interests of Scotland to address. I invite members to respond to that. Mr Swinney's first question concerned whether the buck stops with the ministers. I am always apprehensive when I say that, as what lies ahead in this world can never be known. In referring to the private sector and small and medium enterprises, my intention is not to pick them out as pretending that, on 31 December 1999, they will be ready, when they will not. It is quite clear that, because we have direct responsibility for infrastructure, as I have described it, we do not have the responsibility for what happens in an individual small or medium enterprise. That said, it is important for the ministers who are responsible for the leadership of all 129 MSPs, and the members themselves, to say to everyone, whether in public or in private, that it is vital to the nation that they respond to what is happening. I hope that that partly explains my comment. I know that John Swinney will forgive me for using a quotation from the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom. Even on a Thursday morning, that is still appropriate in the context of today's statement.", "EditedTextHTML": "No. We seek a process for the private sector that will include information, advice, exhortation and help, to take companies to a point of millennium readiness that is equivalent to the amber status that exists in the infrastructure. There has been a magnificent and successful programme. Most of the larger companies—partly because of their resources—have been able to comply and progress. During the run-up to 2000, a lot of the small and medium enterprises may also have reached that point. My main reason for raising this issue today was to give members the opportunity, on an all-party, all-Government basis, to tell the public that this is not a partisan point, but an issue that it is in the interests of Scotland to address. I invite members to respond to that.

Mr Swinney's first question concerned whether the buck stops with the ministers. I am always apprehensive when I say that, as what lies ahead in this world can never be known. In referring to the private sector and small and medium enterprises, my intention is not to pick them out as pretending that, on 31 December 1999, they will be ready, when they will not. It is quite clear that, because we have direct responsibility for infrastructure, as I have described it, we do not have the responsibility for what happens in an individual small or medium enterprise.

That said, it is important for the ministers who are responsible for the leadership of all 129 MSPs, and the members themselves, to say to everyone, whether in public or in private, that it is vital to the nation that they respond to what is happening. I hope that that partly explains my comment. I know that John Swinney will forgive me for using a quotation from the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom. Even on a Thursday morning, that is still appropriate in the context of today's statement.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C711326", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27031, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27031, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Annabel Goldie (West of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 15.0, "ContributionID": 711326, "EditedText": "Like John Swinney, I welcome the minister's statement, which was full and reassuring. I have two practical questions. First, can he give us any information about the coding, under the Action 2000 traffic-light system, for lighthouses and for weather stations and related meteorological facilities? Secondly, given what happened to the telephone system in the west of Scotland when people tried to procure football tickets by telephone, can he reassure us that our telephone system can cope with any unexpected onslaught of demand arising from problems caused by the millennium bug?", "EditedTextHTML": "Like John Swinney, I welcome the minister's statement, which was full and reassuring. I have two practical questions. First, can he give us any information about the coding, under the Action 2000 traffic-light system, for lighthouses and for weather stations and related meteorological facilities?

Secondly, given what happened to the telephone system in the west of Scotland when people tried to procure football tickets by telephone, can he reassure us that our telephone system can cope with any unexpected onslaught of demand arising from problems caused by the millennium bug?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C711328", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27031, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27031, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Goldie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 19.0, "ContributionID": 711328, "EditedText": "Is the same true of weather stations?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is the same true of weather stations?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1908E166P251C711332", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27031, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27031, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Kerr, Andy", "ID": 1908, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Kilbride" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andy Kerr", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Andy Kerr (East Kilbride) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 27.0, "ContributionID": 711332, "EditedText": "Will any millennium failures abroad have an impact on Scotland or the United Kingdom?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will any millennium failures abroad have an impact on Scotland or the United Kingdom?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C711333", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27031, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27031, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 29.0, "ContributionID": 711333, "EditedText": "In committee discussions in London, we consider up-to-date reports from all Government departments, including the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. The United Kingdom is leading the world in the seriousness with which we are pursuing the matter. We are also the only country in the world to have conducted independent assessments. We are clear that we are moving forward on all the things for which we are responsible. We also consider reports from other parts of the world. For trading purposes and for travelling, it has been critical to ensure that we have the maximum information so that we know what is happening. Of course, it is up to each country to pursue this with the vigour that we would expect of them. The information is positive—this is being taken seriously worldwide.", "EditedTextHTML": "In committee discussions in London, we consider up-to-date reports from all Government departments, including the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. The United Kingdom is leading the world in the seriousness with which we are pursuing the matter. We are also the only country in the world to have conducted independent assessments. We are clear that we are moving forward on all the things for which we are responsible.

We also consider reports from other parts of the world. For trading purposes and for travelling, it has been critical to ensure that we have the maximum information so that we know what is happening. Of course, it is up to each country to pursue this with the vigour that we would expect of them. The information is positive—this is being taken seriously worldwide.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C711334", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27031, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27031, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr David Davidson (North-East Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 31.0, "ContributionID": 711334, "EditedText": "I thank the minister for his statement and for being so open in his responses to questions. The minister referred to ministerial responsibility. What sums have been earmarked for indemnity claims, in the event of the failure of any facility for which the Executive has responsibility? What provision has been made to put extra resources into departments to redeem such situations?", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the minister for his statement and for being so open in his responses to questions. The minister referred to ministerial responsibility. What sums have been earmarked for indemnity claims, in the event of the failure of any facility for which the Executive has responsibility? What provision has been made to put extra resources into departments to redeem such situations?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C711341", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27031, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27031, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 45.0, "ContributionID": 711341, "EditedText": "Again, I am happy to give complete reassurance on those points. The Ministry of Defence has been actively involved in every step of the process of preparing for the millennium. Governments, whether of the United Kingdom orScotland, are very large. I have been very impressed by the degree of commitment and co-operation. Ben Wallace's point reinforces the fact that we are dealing with serious issues.", "EditedTextHTML": "Again, I am happy to give complete reassurance on those points. The Ministry of Defence has been actively involved in every step of the process of preparing for the millennium.

Governments, whether of the United Kingdom or

Scotland, are very large. I have been very impressed by the degree of commitment and co-operation. Ben Wallace's point reinforces the fact that we are dealing with serious issues.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C711344", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27031, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27031, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 51.0, "ContributionID": 711344, "EditedText": "We are all grateful for the statement. The minister said that every aspect of government has been covered and is millennium ready and that we are moving towards a disruption-free millennium. Why then are we spending three hours debating it?", "EditedTextHTML": "We are all grateful for the statement. The minister said that every aspect of government has been covered and is millennium ready and that we are moving towards a disruption-free millennium. Why then are we spending three hours debating it?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1769E16P282C711346", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27031, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27031, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Smith, Elaine", "ID": 1769, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Coatbridge and Chryston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Smith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Elaine Smith (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 55.0, "ContributionID": 711346, "EditedText": "I welcome the minister's statement. Will he explain why additional funding has been given to the police but not to the fire service?", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the minister's statement. Will he explain why additional funding has been given to the police but not to the fire service?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C711352", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27031, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27031, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 68.0, "ContributionID": 711352, "EditedText": "Name him.", "EditedTextHTML": "Name him.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711364", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27031, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27031, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 94.0, "ContributionID": 711364, "EditedText": "Have you finished, Mr Lyon? You took me by surprise.", "EditedTextHTML": "Have you finished, Mr Lyon? You took me by surprise.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C711365", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27031, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27031, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 96.0, "ContributionID": 711365, "EditedText": "I have no more to say.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have no more to say.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C711358", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27031, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27031, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Annabel Goldie (West of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 81.0, "ContributionID": 711358, "EditedText": "I thank the minister for his statement, which was full and reassuring. I am also grateful to him for the additional information that he has made available in the course of questioning. There are many positive aspects of the statement and it is right that they be acknowledged. The Conservative party endorses the stance that the Executive is taking and applauds it for becoming fully prepared for what might be a significant problem, which has taxed minds all over the world. We are reassured by what the minister said about Loganair and Caledonian MacBrayne. I will welcome the more detailed information that he has undertaken to provide, on lighthouses and meteorological facilities. Loganair and Caledonian MacBrayne might find it difficult to operate without reassurance on those points. The minister should also be commended for setting up the Scottish information liaison centre. It is critical that there should be a central point of contact for MSPs and other concerned people, so that they can find out about the approach that is being taken to deal with problems that might arise. I was relieved to hear the minister say that the Scottish information liaison centre will not be a one-night sit-in—I was more relieved that it would not be a one-night stand. We acknowledge that we might all find ourselves on a learning curve from midnight on hogmanay. It is difficult to know what problems might unfold, and it is reassuring to know that the Scottish information liaison centre is structured to continue. Although I have been positive so far, I must now change the tone of my remarks. I address not Mr McLeish personally, but his colleagues in the Government. I do not think that I am alone in being surprised that three hours of debating time in the chamber should be allocated to this topic. If we are as prepared as we can be to meet the challenge of the millennium bug, why are we having the debate? Would not a ministerial statement with questions afterwards have sufficed? If we are not in a state of preparedness and there are some dire and unanswered questions, we should be having an emergency debate on the state of Scotland. In fairness to the minister, I think that the situation is not the latter, but the former. If that is the case, I allude to a matter that concerns my party and, more important, an audience outwith the Parliament. It is becoming apparent to many that the timetable of the Parliament is within the firm—and some would say dictatorial—grip of the Executive's parliamentary schedulers. I find it curious that while we have allocated three hours to the debate this morning, in yesterday's debate on homelessness we were reduced to a mere 30 or so minutes. That is despite the fact that serious doubts exist about the Scottish Executive's rough sleepers initiative. I contrast that with previous instances in the Executive's programme. I think that I speak for many members in the chamber and beyond when I say that the people of Scotland would not just welcome a three-hour debate on drugs abuse, but probably would want us to be here for three days discussing the matter. Yet not once have we had a full session devoted to that topic. The public of Scotland would welcome almost a monthly debate on health. It is a huge issue, affecting everybody in Scotland yet, spasmodically, we are offered a debate when a particular issue arises that concerns the interests of the Executive. I do not propose to pad out this speech by talking about something that—because of the good work done by the minister—does not merit being included.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the minister for his statement, which was full and reassuring. I am also grateful to him for the additional information that he has made available in the course of questioning.

There are many positive aspects of the statement and it is right that they be acknowledged. The Conservative party endorses the stance that the Executive is taking and applauds it for becoming fully prepared for what might be a significant problem, which has taxed minds all over the world. We are reassured by what the minister said about Loganair and Caledonian MacBrayne. I will welcome the more detailed information that he has undertaken to provide, on lighthouses and meteorological facilities. Loganair and Caledonian MacBrayne might find it difficult to operate without reassurance on those points.

The minister should also be commended for setting up the Scottish information liaison centre. It is critical that there should be a central point of contact for MSPs and other concerned people, so that they can find out about the approach that is being taken to deal with problems that might arise.

I was relieved to hear the minister say that the Scottish information liaison centre will not be a

one-night sit-in—I was more relieved that it would not be a one-night stand. We acknowledge that we might all find ourselves on a learning curve from midnight on hogmanay. It is difficult to know what problems might unfold, and it is reassuring to know that the Scottish information liaison centre is structured to continue.

Although I have been positive so far, I must now change the tone of my remarks. I address not Mr McLeish personally, but his colleagues in the Government. I do not think that I am alone in being surprised that three hours of debating time in the chamber should be allocated to this topic. If we are as prepared as we can be to meet the challenge of the millennium bug, why are we having the debate? Would not a ministerial statement with questions afterwards have sufficed? If we are not in a state of preparedness and there are some dire and unanswered questions, we should be having an emergency debate on the state of Scotland.

In fairness to the minister, I think that the situation is not the latter, but the former. If that is the case, I allude to a matter that concerns my party and, more important, an audience outwith the Parliament. It is becoming apparent to many that the timetable of the Parliament is within the firm—and some would say dictatorial—grip of the Executive's parliamentary schedulers. I find it curious that while we have allocated three hours to the debate this morning, in yesterday's debate on homelessness we were reduced to a mere 30 or so minutes. That is despite the fact that serious doubts exist about the Scottish Executive's rough sleepers initiative.

I contrast that with previous instances in the Executive's programme. I think that I speak for many members in the chamber and beyond when I say that the people of Scotland would not just welcome a three-hour debate on drugs abuse, but probably would want us to be here for three days discussing the matter. Yet not once have we had a full session devoted to that topic. The public of Scotland would welcome almost a monthly debate on health. It is a huge issue, affecting everybody in Scotland yet, spasmodically, we are offered a debate when a particular issue arises that concerns the interests of the Executive.

I do not propose to pad out this speech by talking about something that—because of the good work done by the minister—does not merit being included.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C711360", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27031, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27031, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Goldie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 85.0, "ContributionID": 711360, "EditedText": "I appreciate Mrs McLeod's comment and do not for one moment disagree with her. What I am saying is that this is a major issue that has been known about for a considerable period. In fairness to the minister— and I hope that I have made this point clear—it is the fullness of his statement that properly indicates the state of our preparedness. There are other aspects on which members might seek or desire clarification, but it should not take three hours to achieve that. My point is that in the context of the issues that matter to the people of Scotland, responsibility has been assumed for this; the minister acknowledges that. There has been full preparation. It is the people of Scotland for whom the Parliament is supposed to exist. It has been called the people's Parliament, but I am concerned that it is becoming the puppet of the Executive, as it is not being allowed to breathe. It is not being allowed to debate the issues that matter to the people. We are debating the issues that matter to the Executive or, more important, Mrs McLeod, we are not debating the issues that the Executive does not want us to debate. Whenever there is potential contention or controversy, what do we have? We have a sidestep with an inquiry. Abolition of tuition fees? Sidestep it—appoint an inquiry. Demoralised, demotivated, depressed teachers? Set up an inquiry. I would rather have a debate in the full chamber, where the people of Scotland can see what is going on and be reassured that the highly paid members whom they have put here are attending to their interests, not the interests of a microcosm of powerful people called the Scottish Executive. As I said earlier, I do not wish to pad this speech out with content that is superfluous to the matter in hand. If I have any concern about this, it is the one that I have just articulated, which is the amount of time being devoted to something that could have been dealt with adequately and competently in another manner, taking up far less of the chamber's time and—more important—freeing up time for debate on issues that are significant to the people of Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "I appreciate Mrs McLeod's comment and do not for one moment disagree with her. What I am saying is that this is a major issue that has been known about for a considerable period. In fairness to the minister— and I hope that I have made this point clear—it is the fullness of his statement that properly indicates the state of our preparedness. There are other aspects on which members might seek or desire clarification, but it should not take three hours to achieve that. My point is that in the context of the issues that matter to the people of Scotland, responsibility has been assumed for this; the minister acknowledges that. There has been full preparation.

It is the people of Scotland for whom the Parliament is supposed to exist. It has been called the people's Parliament, but I am concerned that it is becoming the puppet of the Executive, as it is not being allowed to breathe. It is not being allowed to debate the issues that matter to the people. We are debating the issues that matter to the Executive or, more important, Mrs McLeod, we are not debating the issues that the Executive does not want us to debate. Whenever there is potential contention or controversy, what do we have? We have a sidestep with an inquiry. Abolition of tuition fees? Sidestep it—appoint an inquiry. Demoralised, demotivated, depressed teachers? Set up an inquiry. I would rather have a debate in the full chamber, where the people of Scotland can see what is going on and be reassured that the highly paid members whom they have put here are attending to their interests, not the interests of a microcosm of powerful people called the Scottish Executive.

As I said earlier, I do not wish to pad this speech out with content that is superfluous to the matter in hand. If I have any concern about this, it is the one that I have just articulated, which is the amount of time being devoted to something that could have been dealt with adequately and competently in another manner, taking up far less of the chamber's time and—more important—freeing up time for debate on issues that are significant to the people of Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711366", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27031, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27031, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 98.0, "ContributionID": 711366, "EditedText": "Before we move on to the open debate, I should like to say that, in order to accommodate everyone who would like to speak, members should aim to speak for no more than five minutes, rather than four. There is time for everyone to take five minutes.", "EditedTextHTML": "Before we move on to the open debate, I should like to say that, in order to accommodate everyone who would like to speak, members should aim to speak for no more than five minutes, rather than four. There is time

for everyone to take five minutes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1770E82P108C711367", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27031, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27031, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Thomson, Elaine", "ID": 1770, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Thomson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Elaine Thomson (Aberdeen North) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 101.0, "ContributionID": 711367, "EditedText": "I welcome the minister's statement and the opportunity to take part in today's debate. I know that some of my colleagues thought that the debate was strictly for anoraks—I was tempted to go out and buy one for the occasion—but the subject is relevant to everyone in Scotland. This is an important debate. I cannot agree with Miss Goldie that it was not necessary to hold the debate today or to discuss the subject for so long. The work that has been done over the past year by the public and private sectors in identifying, testing and, where necessary, modifying all date- relevant computer software and embedded chips has been essential. If that work had not been done, the consequences for our society could have been severe. However, we are now able to relax and enjoy the millennium celebrations.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the minister's statement and the opportunity to take part in today's debate.

I know that some of my colleagues thought that the debate was strictly for anoraks—I was tempted to go out and buy one for the occasion—but the subject is relevant to everyone in Scotland. This is an important debate. I cannot agree with Miss Goldie that it was not necessary to hold the debate today or to discuss the subject for so long.

The work that has been done over the past year by the public and private sectors in identifying, testing and, where necessary, modifying all date- relevant computer software and embedded chips has been essential. If that work had not been done, the consequences for our society could have been severe. However, we are now able to relax and enjoy the millennium celebrations.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2105E44P74C711403", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27033, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 129.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 129.0, "ID": 27033, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harding, Mr Keith", "ID": 2105, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Harding", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Harding: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 188.0, "ContributionID": 711403, "EditedText": "Scottish newsagents have not sold any tickets because they have not been asked to sell them.", "EditedTextHTML": "Scottish newsagents have not sold any tickets because they have not been asked to sell them.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711378", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27033, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 129.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 129.0, "ID": 27033, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 130.0, "ContributionID": 711378, "EditedText": "Resumed debate.", "EditedTextHTML": "Resumed debate.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1908E166P251C711383", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27033, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 129.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 129.0, "ID": 27033, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Kerr, Andy", "ID": 1908, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Kilbride" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andy Kerr", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Andy Kerr (East Kilbride) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 142.0, "ContributionID": 711383, "EditedText": "I welcome the opportunity to have this debate. We have heard many good speeches. The openness and inclusiveness of the minister's approach, and those of the Opposition parties, has been helpful. We have touched on issues of which I was unaware, which has been useful, as was the minister's statement. The issue that Annabel Goldie raised, of the time that is allocated to debates, is also interesting. I am sure that the minister will respond to that in his summation. However, some validity is lost when a member makes such a statement in the chamber immediately before they run out to brief the press on it. That statement would have had more validity if Annabel had waited for the minister's response. None the less, we have heard of new issues— issues that we need to take back to our communities—especially about small or medium enterprises. I hope that local MSPs can play a role in their communities, when they are out on visits or undertaking work with the local newspapers, in ensuring that the issue is taken up by small and medium enterprises. We must ensure that they are listening to the advice from Action 2000 and in the mailings that have been sent out by the Government. When a member is elected to Parliament—I have never been elected before—they undertake many visits. One of the visits that I undertook during the summer recess was to British Energy, whose headquarters are in East Kilbride. I had the chance to spend some time with the millennium officer. In such an industry, safety concerns are primary. I was heartened by the way in which British Energy has built in best practice for dealing with the millennium bug. It carried out an inventory of all equipment and identified that some 6,000 pieces of equipment would have to be investigated and analysed. That was done, and the execution of that procedure was verified. An impact assessment was also carried out to identify the priorities, so that those that related to safety could be dealt with first. British Energy has passed all the requirements, which relate to the millennium bug, of the independent inspectorate that monitors its activity. That should give many of us confidence not only in the way in which the public sector is approaching the problem, but in the way in which recently privatised companies— of which British Energy is one—are approaching and dealing effectively with the problem through their own internal measures. The supply chain of organisations that interact with British Energy must also be considered. All those companies must examine their activities for millennium compliance. It is reassuring to know that those matters have been considered. Action 2000 was useful to British Energy. Its independent assessment was carried out by the Office of Electricity Regulation, which has now been renamed the Office of Gas and Electricity Markets—things keep changing. Most organisations have contingency planning mechanisms. That will also reassure us that the services and industries that we all take for granted will be ready for the event. The minister mentioned Caledonian MacBrayne and Loganair and reassured us on matters over which there used to be a question mark. I have spent time with members of the Strathclyde police force, who are confident that they can deal with all the issues for which they are responsible. All the public services and all the private sector companies are coming together. I echo Phil Gallie's concerns about payments and awards for the poor souls who will have to work over the millennium period. We should recognise their contribution, not just financially but in this chamber. I welcome the open and inclusive approach that is being taken. This has been a useful debate. MSPs and the general public will learn from what we are discussing today. We are dealing not just with the transition from 31 December to 1 January, but with potential problems after that. I look forward to the minister's summation.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the opportunity to have this debate. We have heard many good speeches. The openness and inclusiveness of the minister's approach, and those of the Opposition parties, has been helpful. We have touched on issues of which I was unaware, which has been useful, as was the minister's statement.

The issue that Annabel Goldie raised, of the time that is allocated to debates, is also interesting. I am sure that the minister will respond to that in his summation. However, some validity is lost when a member makes such a statement in the chamber immediately before they run out to brief the press on it. That statement would have had more validity if Annabel had waited for the minister's response.

None the less, we have heard of new issues— issues that we need to take back to our communities—especially about small or medium enterprises. I hope that local MSPs can play a role in their communities, when they are out on visits or undertaking work with the local newspapers, in ensuring that the issue is taken up by small and medium enterprises. We must ensure that they are listening to the advice from Action 2000 and in the mailings that have been sent out by the Government.

When a member is elected to Parliament—I have never been elected before—they undertake many visits. One of the visits that I undertook during the summer recess was to British Energy, whose headquarters are in East Kilbride. I had the chance to spend some time with the millennium officer. In such an industry, safety concerns are primary. I was heartened by the way in which British Energy has built in best practice for dealing with the millennium bug. It carried out an inventory of all equipment and identified that some 6,000 pieces of equipment would have to be investigated

and analysed. That was done, and the execution of that procedure was verified.

An impact assessment was also carried out to identify the priorities, so that those that related to safety could be dealt with first. British Energy has passed all the requirements, which relate to the millennium bug, of the independent inspectorate that monitors its activity. That should give many of us confidence not only in the way in which the public sector is approaching the problem, but in the way in which recently privatised companies— of which British Energy is one—are approaching and dealing effectively with the problem through their own internal measures.

The supply chain of organisations that interact with British Energy must also be considered. All those companies must examine their activities for millennium compliance. It is reassuring to know that those matters have been considered. Action 2000 was useful to British Energy. Its independent assessment was carried out by the Office of Electricity Regulation, which has now been renamed the Office of Gas and Electricity Markets—things keep changing. Most organisations have contingency planning mechanisms. That will also reassure us that the services and industries that we all take for granted will be ready for the event.

The minister mentioned Caledonian MacBrayne and Loganair and reassured us on matters over which there used to be a question mark. I have spent time with members of the Strathclyde police force, who are confident that they can deal with all the issues for which they are responsible. All the public services and all the private sector companies are coming together.

I echo Phil Gallie's concerns about payments and awards for the poor souls who will have to work over the millennium period. We should recognise their contribution, not just financially but in this chamber.

I welcome the open and inclusive approach that is being taken. This has been a useful debate. MSPs and the general public will learn from what we are discussing today. We are dealing not just with the transition from 31 December to 1 January, but with potential problems after that. I look forward to the minister's summation.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1985E207P501C711384", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27033, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 129.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 129.0, "ID": 27033, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hamilton, Mr Duncan", "ID": 1985, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Duncan Hamilton (Highlands and Islands) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 145.0, "ContributionID": 711384, "EditedText": "I welcome the calmness of this debate and the good-natured spirit in which it has been conducted. I am reassured about many of the areas that the minister talked about, which is in contrast to the fear and alarm I felt the other morning, when I received a letter from my bank that told me in breathless and excited tones that, having put each of its independent experts on to my bank account, the money in my account would still be there after the millennium. It had not occurred to me that the bank was going to steal my money in the first place and I refuse to feel grateful to it for doing no more than a competent job. However, I am rather more worried about one element of the Government's policy. John Swinney and others raised the issue of the difference between code blue and date discontinuity, asking what will happen after the millennium. There is a clear signal from this debate that the Government has not given a great deal of thought to what it will do about that. We asked about on-going monitoring, we asked about future network support, and we asked how we could build on the expertise the Government has rightly put together for the millennium, but we have had no answers. I hope that, in summing up, the minister will outline exactly what the position is. Either plans exist or they do not. If they exist, he ought to tell us what they are. If they do not, he should be honest about it and tell us where the Government will go from here to ensure that plans are in place for the future. That should go some way to allaying the fears of Annabel Goldie, who felt that this debate should not be taking place at all and wondered what the point was. If the minister can give us a guarantee for the next 35 years after the millennium, perhaps there will have been a point to the debate after all. Mr McLeish told Mr Swinney that perhaps Mr Swinney did not understand all the issues that are involved because he did not have all the information. It strikes me as somewhat odd to have a debate without first giving the detailed information required for a sensible discussion to take place. Either all the information should be made public so that we can examine it and have a proper debate, or we should not bother with the debate at all. The minister should not criticise us for not being fully informed on topics that he is not willing to tell us about in advance. I have two specific points to make about health care. The first is a matter that I have been pursuing since September. I hope that the minister can now give me an answer. I am concerned about the millennium compliance of emergency medical equipment. On 1 April this year, some emergency medical equipment in the United States malfunctioned. That is a matter of great concern for people throughout Scotland. What is meant by the national health service in Scotland being code blue? Can the minister guarantee that the problem of emergency medical equipment has been examined and that international comparisons have been made? Public services must have the very highest levels of safety. It is simply not good enough to take a best guess at where the NHS is going. I want a stronger assurance than that. The second issue concerns the prescription pricing division of the Common Services Agency. There was press coverage in August about a new computer system to cut down on the £10 million of fraud that is estimated to exist in that sector. If that computer system does not come in, there is a problem as the old system is not millennium compliant. In August, The Scotsman quoted an employee of the prescription pricing division saying: \"We were supposed to get the new system in February so they could test it and we would get trained by April. Now they are saying that the computers will arrive in October. It has to be running by the end of the year because the old computers can't deal with the millennium bug.\" I asked when the new system would be in place and was reassured that it would be by the end of December. At the end of December we hit the new millennium, so there is not much margin for error. I then asked what would happen if the division does not hit that target, and was told that there were contingency plans. Will the minister tell me today—or, if he cannot do it today, will he write to tell me—whether the system is guaranteed to be in place by the end of the year and, if not, what those contingency plans are? People want to know that we can give as much of a guarantee as is humanly possible that health services will be protected throughout the millennium festivities and, indeed, up to 2035, as called for by independent experts.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the calmness of this debate and the good-natured spirit in which it has been conducted.

I am reassured about many of the areas that the minister talked about, which is in contrast to the fear and alarm I felt the other morning, when I received a letter from my bank that told me in breathless and excited tones that, having put each of its independent experts on to my bank account, the money in my account would still be there after the millennium. It had not occurred to me that the bank was going to steal my money in the first place and I refuse to feel grateful to it for doing no more than a competent job.

However, I am rather more worried about one element of the Government's policy. John Swinney and others raised the issue of the difference between code blue and date discontinuity, asking what will happen after the millennium. There is a clear signal from this debate that the Government has not given a great deal of thought to what it will do about that. We asked about on-going monitoring, we asked about future network support, and we asked how we could build on the expertise the Government has rightly put together for the millennium, but we have had no answers.

I hope that, in summing up, the minister will outline exactly what the position is. Either plans exist or they do not. If they exist, he ought to tell us what they are. If they do not, he should be honest about it and tell us where the Government will go from here to ensure that plans are in place for the future. That should go some way to allaying the fears of Annabel Goldie, who felt that this debate should not be taking place at all and wondered what the point was. If the minister can give us a guarantee for the next 35 years after the millennium, perhaps there will have been a point to the debate after all.

Mr McLeish told Mr Swinney that perhaps Mr Swinney did not understand all the issues that are involved because he did not have all the information. It strikes me as somewhat odd to have a debate without first giving the detailed information required for a sensible discussion to take place. Either all the information should be made public so that we can examine it and have a proper debate, or we should not bother with the debate at all. The minister should not criticise us for not being fully informed on topics that he is not willing to tell us about in advance.

I have two specific points to make about health care. The first is a matter that I have been pursuing since September. I hope that the minister can now give me an answer. I am concerned about the millennium compliance of emergency medical equipment. On 1 April this year, some emergency medical equipment in the United States malfunctioned. That is a matter of great concern for people throughout Scotland.

What is meant by the national health service in Scotland being code blue? Can the minister guarantee that the problem of emergency medical equipment has been examined and that international comparisons have been made?

Public services must have the very highest levels of safety. It is simply not good enough to take a best guess at where the NHS is going. I want a stronger assurance than that.

The second issue concerns the prescription pricing division of the Common Services Agency. There was press coverage in August about a new computer system to cut down on the £10 million of fraud that is estimated to exist in that sector. If that computer system does not come in, there is a problem as the old system is not millennium compliant. In August, The Scotsman quoted an employee of the prescription pricing division saying:

\"We were supposed to get the new system in February so they could test it and we would get trained by April.

Now they are saying that the computers will arrive in October. It has to be running by the end of the year because the old computers can't deal with the millennium bug.\"

I asked when the new system would be in place and was reassured that it would be by the end of December. At the end of December we hit the new millennium, so there is not much margin for error. I then asked what would happen if the division does not hit that target, and was told that there were contingency plans. Will the minister tell me today—or, if he cannot do it today, will he write to tell me—whether the system is guaranteed to be in place by the end of the year and, if not, what those contingency plans are?

People want to know that we can give as much of a guarantee as is humanly possible that health services will be protected throughout the millennium festivities and, indeed, up to 2035, as called for by independent experts.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2105E44P74C711392", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27033, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 129.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 129.0, "ID": 27033, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harding, Mr Keith", "ID": 2105, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Harding", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Harding: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 165.0, "ContributionID": 711392, "EditedText": "No. We should not be spending three hours debating the millennium bug, when yesterday just 30 minutes were devoted to the issue of homelessness. We certainly did not have enough time for the debate on Europe. Many more people wanted to speak in one of the most interesting debates that we have had in this chamber. A ministerial statement, with questions, would have sufficed for this issue. It was noticeable that the questions finished at 2 minutes past 10; roughly the same amount of time was spent debating homelessness yesterday. We could have used the remaining two hours of this morning to debate issues that the public want us to address. I am getting frustrated about the fact that people in the street and constituents keep coming up to me to ask when we are going to start addressing real issues, instead of all this politically correct business on fox hunting and section 28.", "EditedTextHTML": "No. We should not be spending three hours debating the millennium bug, when yesterday just 30 minutes were devoted to the issue of homelessness. We certainly did not have enough time for the debate on Europe. Many more people wanted to speak in one of the most interesting debates that we have had in this chamber. A ministerial statement, with questions, would have sufficed for this issue. It was noticeable that the questions finished at 2 minutes past 10; roughly the same amount of time was spent debating homelessness yesterday. We could have used the remaining two hours of this morning to debate issues that the public want us to address.

I am getting frustrated about the fact that people in the street and constituents keep coming up to me to ask when we are going to start addressing real issues, instead of all this politically correct business on fox hunting and section 28.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2105E44P74C711394", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27033, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 129.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 129.0, "ID": 27033, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harding, Mr Keith", "ID": 2105, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Harding", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Harding: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 169.0, "ContributionID": 711394, "EditedText": "No. Only the other day, the Deputy Minister for Culture and Sport announced a further subsidy of £2.1 million for Scottish Opera, without reference to this Parliament. That is an example of the things that should be debated in this chamber. I do not recall any other debate here in which the Presiding Officer has asked us to extend our speeches. There have either been too many speeches, or speakers have been cut off. Today, we are going to make it to 12 o'clock, but we have spent far too much time on discussing this matter. New year's eve 1999 marks the end of an era, not the end of the world, so let us sit back and enjoy the party.", "EditedTextHTML": "No. Only the other day, the Deputy Minister for Culture and Sport announced a further subsidy of £2.1 million for Scottish Opera, without reference to this Parliament. That is an example of the things that should be debated in this chamber. I do not recall any other debate here in which the Presiding Officer has asked us to extend our speeches. There have either been too many speeches, or speakers have been cut off. Today, we are going to make it to 12 o'clock, but we have spent far too much time on discussing this matter.

New year's eve 1999 marks the end of an era, not the end of the world, so let us sit back and enjoy the party.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2068E171P304C711399", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27033, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 129.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 129.0, "ID": 27033, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stone, Jamie", "ID": 2068, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie Stone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Stone: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 180.0, "ContributionID": 711399, "EditedText": "Will Fergus Ewing tell us what that has got to do with 2000? I am getting a bit lost.", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Fergus Ewing tell us what that has got to do with 2000? I am getting a bit lost.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C711421", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27033, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 129.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 129.0, "ID": 27033, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Angus MacKay: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 225.0, "ContributionID": 711421, "EditedText": "I have probably given way toMr Swinney for the last time in the debate. I am happy to have given him the opportunity to make his position clear. I will now move on to other issues, particularly date discontinuity problems after the year 2000 changeover. The Executive has reminded organisations about the internationally agreed dates that are likely to cause problems. As for the issue of longer-term dates that was raised by several members, some equipment will simply have to be replaced. The civil contingencies committee has recommended that the Government departments and other non-departmental agencies concerned should use the experience and expertise that they have gained throughout the planning process— particularly with regard to business continuity plans—to create an on-going system of testing, review and re-review of plans and business-critical systems. I expect that that scheme will roll out beyond 2000 to address in advance any glitches that could recur after the year 2000 problem. Although there have been costs in ensuring compliance and in addressing foreseeable problems, significant benefits should accrue to a number of agencies through ensuring the continuity of their business in all unforeseeable circumstances, not just at the millennium changeover. The police force and fire services were also mentioned in the debate. The police force will certainly be stretched by events such as millennium parties and parades. However, as the new year is generally a quiet time for the fire service, there are no plans to have extra fire service staff on duty at that time, although staff will of course be on call should there be an increase in incidents. The police and other emergency services have enhanced their own call-receipt facilities for the new year and have clear contingency plans in case of dislocation of service across the country. It is important that the public use the 999 service responsibly. That will assist the emergency services in carrying on through the new year without exceptionable circumstances. The issue of the problems with ticket sales at Glasgow City Council was raised. I do not propose to deal with that in any great detail, other than to say that most of the problems were caused by blockages at the organisation's switchboards. The problems that occurred, for example, at the Scottish Executive, were caused by the volume of outgoing calls from the Scottish Executive. At Glasgow City Council, the problem was the volume of incoming calls. In both cases, the problem was the volume of calls to and from specific switchboards, which is unlikely to be replicated at the new year, when traffic will, largely, be personal. It should also be stated that the problem in that case was caused by the fact that most of Scotland and substantial parts of England were trying to phone an individual organisation for a very specific purpose. At new year, a range of different organisations, local authorities and other emergency bodies will deal with any contingencies that arise. Advanced discussions are on-going about the availability of telephone services across the United Kingdom. Telecommunications companies are playing a full, constructive and active part in those discussions, which should give reassurance that services will be available during the new year period in all foreseeable circumstances. Another issue that was raised during the debate was the Scottish information liaison centre. The centre is being set up because most people will be on holiday during the period for which the centre will be in existence. Most people will almost certainly be back at work after 31 December and 1 and 2 January, so local authorities and utilities will be functioning normally and normal operational procedures will be in place. Should there be any need for contingency plans to be implemented because of unforeseen circumstances, the Executive has ensured that there will be continuity and that the functions of the SILC can continue and feed into a national infrastructure. I hope that that puts members' minds at rest about the Executive's capacity to function beyond the start of the new year. Before I move to my conclusion, I want to address one more specific point that was raised during the debate. One of the questions that was asked was whether we should have had this debate and whether it should have been allocated three hours. Because of the thoroughness of the approach that has been taken throughout the United Kingdom and in Scotland, I believe that most, if not all, foreseeable circumstances have been addressed. One of the few things that is left to fear about the date change is panic among the general public because of a lack of confidence in the ability of business-critical systems to operate. Such systems will operate, I am sure. This debate, at least in part, aims to address the general concerns of the public. Reports of the debate will reassure the public that the everyday services on which people depend will be in place. That is critical. It does not take substantial imagination to predict what would happen if members of the public felt that, for example, autotellers would not operate after the start of 2000 and for some time afterwards: there would be a rush to withdraw cash from autotellers, which would present all sorts of problems for the continuity of normal civic life. That is unlikely to happen, precisely because of the measures that have been taken. However, that must be communicated to the public, to reassure them on that point and on all others that might worry them. Members of the Parliament have a unique opportunity to ask the very questions that members of the public might ask were they able to take part in today's debate. Many members have taken that opportunity. By answering their questions, I hope that we have addressed any fears that the general public might still have. The debate is also an opportunity to remind small and medium companies in Scotland that still have work to do that they must check and double- check their preparedness for year 2000 compliance. If that saves money—and in turn jobs—and protects the interests of Scottish business, industry and services, I make no apology for having this debate or taking this length of time over it. The issue of whether other matters are being debated sufficiently is one that would be best raised in other circumstances and at another time. I hope that I have dealt with most of the questions that have been raised in the debate.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have probably given way to

Mr Swinney for the last time in the debate. I am happy to have given him the opportunity to make his position clear. I will now move on to other issues, particularly date discontinuity problems after the year 2000 changeover.

The Executive has reminded organisations about the internationally agreed dates that are likely to cause problems. As for the issue of longer-term dates that was raised by several members, some equipment will simply have to be replaced.

The civil contingencies committee has recommended that the Government departments and other non-departmental agencies concerned should use the experience and expertise that they have gained throughout the planning process— particularly with regard to business continuity plans—to create an on-going system of testing, review and re-review of plans and business-critical systems. I expect that that scheme will roll out beyond 2000 to address in advance any glitches that could recur after the year 2000 problem.

Although there have been costs in ensuring compliance and in addressing foreseeable problems, significant benefits should accrue to a number of agencies through ensuring the continuity of their business in all unforeseeable circumstances, not just at the millennium changeover.

The police force and fire services were also mentioned in the debate. The police force will certainly be stretched by events such as millennium parties and parades. However, as the new year is generally a quiet time for the fire service, there are no plans to have extra fire service staff on duty at that time, although staff will of course be on call should there be an increase in incidents.

The police and other emergency services have enhanced their own call-receipt facilities for the new year and have clear contingency plans in case of dislocation of service across the country. It is important that the public use the 999 service responsibly. That will assist the emergency services in carrying on through the new year without exceptionable circumstances.

The issue of the problems with ticket sales at Glasgow City Council was raised. I do not propose to deal with that in any great detail, other than to say that most of the problems were caused by blockages at the organisation's switchboards. The problems that occurred, for example, at the Scottish Executive, were caused by the volume of outgoing calls from the Scottish Executive. At Glasgow City Council, the problem was the volume of incoming calls. In both cases, the problem was the volume of calls to and from specific switchboards, which is unlikely to be

replicated at the new year, when traffic will, largely, be personal.

It should also be stated that the problem in that case was caused by the fact that most of Scotland and substantial parts of England were trying to phone an individual organisation for a very specific purpose. At new year, a range of different organisations, local authorities and other emergency bodies will deal with any contingencies that arise. Advanced discussions are on-going about the availability of telephone services across the United Kingdom. Telecommunications companies are playing a full, constructive and active part in those discussions, which should give reassurance that services will be available during the new year period in all foreseeable circumstances.

Another issue that was raised during the debate was the Scottish information liaison centre. The centre is being set up because most people will be on holiday during the period for which the centre will be in existence. Most people will almost certainly be back at work after 31 December and 1 and 2 January, so local authorities and utilities will be functioning normally and normal operational procedures will be in place. Should there be any need for contingency plans to be implemented because of unforeseen circumstances, the Executive has ensured that there will be continuity and that the functions of the SILC can continue and feed into a national infrastructure. I hope that that puts members' minds at rest about the Executive's capacity to function beyond the start of the new year.

Before I move to my conclusion, I want to address one more specific point that was raised during the debate. One of the questions that was asked was whether we should have had this debate and whether it should have been allocated three hours. Because of the thoroughness of the approach that has been taken throughout the United Kingdom and in Scotland, I believe that most, if not all, foreseeable circumstances have been addressed. One of the few things that is left to fear about the date change is panic among the general public because of a lack of confidence in the ability of business-critical systems to operate. Such systems will operate, I am sure.

This debate, at least in part, aims to address the general concerns of the public. Reports of the debate will reassure the public that the everyday services on which people depend will be in place. That is critical. It does not take substantial imagination to predict what would happen if members of the public felt that, for example, autotellers would not operate after the start of 2000 and for some time afterwards: there would be a rush to withdraw cash from autotellers, which would present all sorts of problems for the continuity of normal civic life. That is unlikely to happen, precisely because of the measures that have been taken. However, that must be communicated to the public, to reassure them on that point and on all others that might worry them.

Members of the Parliament have a unique opportunity to ask the very questions that members of the public might ask were they able to take part in today's debate. Many members have taken that opportunity. By answering their questions, I hope that we have addressed any fears that the general public might still have.

The debate is also an opportunity to remind small and medium companies in Scotland that still have work to do that they must check and double- check their preparedness for year 2000 compliance. If that saves money—and in turn jobs—and protects the interests of Scottish business, industry and services, I make no apology for having this debate or taking this length of time over it. The issue of whether other matters are being debated sufficiently is one that would be best raised in other circumstances and at another time.

I hope that I have dealt with most of the questions that have been raised in the debate.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C711423", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27033, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 129.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 129.0, "ID": 27033, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Angus MacKay: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 229.0, "ContributionID": 711423, "EditedText": "Returning to reality, I would like to speak about an issue that falls within my portfolio. Despite the best, most thorough efforts that have been made in the utilities, in private sector and public sector services and in industry, the possibility remains that a dislocation of services could take place to an extent, because of a variety of factors, including the weather, the celebrations, the millennium bug or a combination of any of those. One of the most troubling year 2000 myths has been the notion that, after 1 January, everything will be all right, and that that is the seminal date on which everything—or nothing—related to the year 2000 will occur. It is critical that all organisations remain vigilant against the possibility of a longer- term slow degradation in service and function. I hope that all enterprises will take note of that. We are very fortunate here in Scotland: we have excellent emergency services, backed up by the local authorities, the health sector, voluntary agencies and many other organisations, all of which have considerable experience in dealing with the incidents and emergencies that might prevail. While the millennium will undoubtedly be an enormous celebration here in Edinburgh, for example, City of Edinburgh Council and Lothian and Borders police have had three or four years' experience of dealing with substantial street parties. I expect that that will give them thorough preparation for dealing with any problems in this city. That experience has been extended to other parts of Scotland, particularly the other cities, to help prepare them for their own millennium celebrations. Sophisticated procedures are in place to scale up any necessary response, including mutual aid to and from the military if that is appropriate. That facilitates the major objective of a return to normality as soon as possible, should normality be departed from. In recent years, we have had problems with freezing, storms, snow and flooding, but have always managed to cope with them. It is important to acknowledge the potential for complications arising from the number of celebrations taking place, but the public, by and large, have conducted themselves sensibly and astutely throughout previous new year celebrations, and I see no reason to believe that anything significantly different will occur this time. Ministers have an important role and will, as Mr McLeish mentioned, be on call over the millennium period, not just for the date change but before and after that period. I reassure Mr Swinney that a trawling exercise is taking place at the moment for the availability of a number of ministers. I am not sure whether that will quite extend to an invitation to Mr Swinney to join Mr McLeish on some one- night stand somewhere in the Scottish Executive—Annabel Goldie somewhat floridly took us down that path earlier. Ministers will certainly be available and on duty. The emergency planning community is ready at all times to respond, as it has done in the past. Ministers have every confidence that the people of Scotland will not be let down, whatever situation may arise. We are geared up, through the SILC and the comparable arrangements made in Whitehall, in full readiness for the millennium and whatever may ensue. I am sure that there will be no need for any extreme responses. The thorough Y2K preparations have minimised the possibility of issues arising from the bug, and it will be business as usual. I hope that members will take the information learned in the debate back to their constituencies and to the organisations with which they are in regular contact, to send the message that further vigilance is required, but that people can be reassured that the Executive is doing everything in its power to prepare Scotland for the 2000 date change.", "EditedTextHTML": "Returning to reality, I would like to speak about an issue that falls within my portfolio.

Despite the best, most thorough efforts that have been made in the utilities, in private sector and public sector services and in industry, the possibility remains that a dislocation of services could take place to an extent, because of a variety of factors, including the weather, the celebrations, the millennium bug or a combination of any of those.

One of the most troubling year 2000 myths has been the notion that, after 1 January, everything will be all right, and that that is the seminal date on which everything—or nothing—related to the year 2000 will occur. It is critical that all organisations remain vigilant against the possibility of a longer- term slow degradation in service and function. I hope that all enterprises will take note of that.

We are very fortunate here in Scotland: we have excellent emergency services, backed up by the local authorities, the health sector, voluntary agencies and many other organisations, all of which have considerable experience in dealing with the incidents and emergencies that might prevail. While the millennium will undoubtedly be

an enormous celebration here in Edinburgh, for example, City of Edinburgh Council and Lothian and Borders police have had three or four years' experience of dealing with substantial street parties. I expect that that will give them thorough preparation for dealing with any problems in this city. That experience has been extended to other parts of Scotland, particularly the other cities, to help prepare them for their own millennium celebrations.

Sophisticated procedures are in place to scale up any necessary response, including mutual aid to and from the military if that is appropriate. That facilitates the major objective of a return to normality as soon as possible, should normality be departed from.

In recent years, we have had problems with freezing, storms, snow and flooding, but have always managed to cope with them. It is important to acknowledge the potential for complications arising from the number of celebrations taking place, but the public, by and large, have conducted themselves sensibly and astutely throughout previous new year celebrations, and I see no reason to believe that anything significantly different will occur this time.

Ministers have an important role and will, as Mr McLeish mentioned, be on call over the millennium period, not just for the date change but before and after that period. I reassure Mr Swinney that a trawling exercise is taking place at the moment for the availability of a number of ministers. I am not sure whether that will quite extend to an invitation to Mr Swinney to join Mr McLeish on some one- night stand somewhere in the Scottish Executive—Annabel Goldie somewhat floridly took us down that path earlier. Ministers will certainly be available and on duty.

The emergency planning community is ready at all times to respond, as it has done in the past. Ministers have every confidence that the people of Scotland will not be let down, whatever situation may arise. We are geared up, through the SILC and the comparable arrangements made in Whitehall, in full readiness for the millennium and whatever may ensue.

I am sure that there will be no need for any extreme responses. The thorough Y2K preparations have minimised the possibility of issues arising from the bug, and it will be business as usual. I hope that members will take the information learned in the debate back to their constituencies and to the organisations with which they are in regular contact, to send the message that further vigilance is required, but that people can be reassured that the Executive is doing everything in its power to prepare Scotland for the 2000 date change.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711433", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27034, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 231.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 231.0, "ID": 27034, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 242.0, "ContributionID": 711433, "EditedText": "5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business Debate on the subject of S1M-189: Michael Matheson: Pollution of Bo'ness Domestic Water Supply", "EditedTextHTML": "5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business Debate on the subject of S1M-189: Michael Matheson: Pollution of Bo'ness Domestic Water Supply

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711434", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27034, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 231.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 231.0, "ID": 27034, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 243.0, "ContributionID": 711434, "EditedText": "Wednesday 24 November 1999", "EditedTextHTML": "Wednesday 24 November 1999

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711438", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27034, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 231.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 231.0, "ID": 27034, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 247.0, "ContributionID": 711438, "EditedText": "9.30 am Debate on a motion by the Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party followed by Business Motion followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions", "EditedTextHTML": "9.30 am Debate on a motion by the Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party followed by Business Motion followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711440", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27034, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 231.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 231.0, "ID": 27034, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 249.0, "ContributionID": 711440, "EditedText": "5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business—Mr McCabe.", "EditedTextHTML": "5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business—[Mr McCabe.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711442", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27034, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 231.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 231.0, "ID": 27034, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 252.0, "ContributionID": 711442, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711445", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Subordinate Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27035, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 253.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 253.0, "ID": 27035, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 257.0, "ContributionID": 711445, "EditedText": "That the Parliament agrees that the Food Protection (Emergency Prohibitions) (Amnesic Shellfish Poisoning) (North Coast) (Scotland) Order 1999 (SSI 1999/125) be approved.—Mr McCabe.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament agrees that the Food Protection (Emergency Prohibitions) (Amnesic Shellfish Poisoning) (North Coast) (Scotland) Order 1999 (SSI 1999/125) be approved.—[Mr McCabe.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C711446", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Subordinate Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27035, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 253.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 253.0, "ID": 27035, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 258.0, "ContributionID": 711446, "EditedText": "The motion will be decided at this afternoon's decision time. Question, That the meeting be now adjourned until 2.30 pm today, put and agreed to.—Mr McCabe.", "EditedTextHTML": "The motion will be decided at this afternoon's decision time.

Question, That the meeting be now adjourned until 2.30 pm today, put and agreed to.—[Mr McCabe.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711447", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Subordinate Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27035, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 253.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 253.0, "ID": 27035, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 260.0, "ContributionID": 711447, "EditedText": "Meeting adjourned at 12:30.", "EditedTextHTML": "Meeting adjourned at 12:30.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2010E221P512C711453", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27036, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 265.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27037, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 266.0, "QuestionHeading": "Domestic Violence Service Development Fund", "QuestionHeadingID": 27039, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 274.0, "DisplayOrder": 274.0, "ID": 27039, "ParentID": 27037 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Paterson, Gil", "ID": 2010, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Gil Paterson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "2. Mr Gil Paterson (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 275.0, "ContributionID": 711453, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will provide a breakdown of the specific areas to which the £3 million pledged to the domestic violence service development fund will be channelled. (S1O-587)", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will provide a breakdown of the specific areas to which the £3 million pledged to the domestic violence service development fund will be channelled. (S1O-587)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711467", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27036, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 265.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27037, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 266.0, "QuestionHeading": "Rural Economy", "QuestionHeadingID": 27042, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 297.0, "DisplayOrder": 297.0, "ID": 27042, "ParentID": 27037 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 306.0, "ContributionID": 711467, "EditedText": "Is your first point your only point, Mr Finnie?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is your first point your only point, Mr Finnie?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C711468", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27036, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 265.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27037, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 266.0, "QuestionHeading": "Rural Economy", "QuestionHeadingID": 27042, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 297.0, "DisplayOrder": 297.0, "ID": 27042, "ParentID": 27037 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ross Finnie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 308.0, "ContributionID": 711468, "EditedText": "I am sorry. I am coming to the final point of my answer. I will try to take account of Mr Ewing's very point in considering how to deal with people who have expended money in making their applications. I will also consider the prioritisation that must be given to the scheme. I am examining other schemes to see whether there is any prospect of finding other moneys to meet the need, although I do not want to raise any hopes.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry. I am coming to the final point of my answer.

I will try to take account of Mr Ewing's very point in considering how to deal with people who have expended money in making their applications. I will also consider the prioritisation that must be given to the scheme. I am examining other schemes to see whether there is any prospect of finding other moneys to meet the need, although I do not want to raise any hopes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1986E53P206C711472", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27036, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 265.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27037, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 266.0, "QuestionHeading": "Residential Property (Surveys)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27044, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "DisplayOrder": 317.0, "ID": 27044, "ParentID": 27037 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeil, Duncan", "ID": 1986, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Greenock and Inverclyde" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan McNeil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "7. Mr Duncan McNeil (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 318.0, "ContributionID": 711472, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has to bring forward proposals to replace multiple surveys with a single \"seller survey\" in the residential property market. (S1O592) The Minister for Communities (Ms Wendy Alexander): In the programme for government, we undertook to seek to improve the house-buying process in Scotland. We are currently examining whether market-led solutions can achieve our objectives. We will decide, in due course, whether there is a need for legislation to achieve our objectives.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has to bring forward proposals to replace multiple surveys with a single \"seller survey\" in the residential property market. (S1O592) The Minister for Communities (Ms Wendy Alexander): In the programme for government, we undertook to seek to improve the house-buying process in Scotland. We are currently examining whether market-led solutions can achieve our objectives. We will decide, in due course, whether there is a need for legislation to achieve our objectives.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1986E53P206C711473", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27036, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 265.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27037, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 266.0, "QuestionHeading": "Residential Property (Surveys)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27044, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "DisplayOrder": 317.0, "ID": 27044, "ParentID": 27037 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeil, Duncan", "ID": 1986, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Greenock and Inverclyde" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan McNeil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McNeil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 320.0, "ContributionID": 711473, "EditedText": "Through the press I have become aware of internet-based schemes. Does the minister agree that such schemes, delivered by a single company, would be difficult to access throughout Scotland and would leave the buyer ultimately liable for the cost? Would not a single survey that is paid for by the seller be a fairer and more cost-effective method of helping people to pay for surveys on homes that they will never buy?", "EditedTextHTML": "Through the press I have become aware of internet-based schemes. Does the minister agree that such schemes, delivered by a single company, would be difficult to access throughout Scotland and would leave the buyer ultimately liable for the cost? Would not a single survey that is paid for by the seller be a fairer and more cost-effective method of helping people to pay for surveys on homes that they will never buy?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C711477", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27036, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 265.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27037, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 266.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Social Security(Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27045, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 324.0, "DisplayOrder": 324.0, "ID": 27045, "ParentID": 27037 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 329.0, "ContributionID": 711477, "EditedText": "I regret that Alex Neil has invoked this day of remembrance and then made an extremely partisan point. I do him the credit of thinking that he must know that that comparison with Germany is not like with like. Germany does not have the kinds of occupational pensions structures that we have in this country. Therefore, he is trying to draw a very incomplete comparison. We all want to improve things for pensioners. I remind Alex Neil that this Government has helped the poorest pensioners by introducing the basic minimum pension guarantee, which is very important to the poorest pensioners. I also remind him that there was a wide welcome for the £100 winter payment, which we have just learned is to be a permanent feature, and that there are free television licences for the over-75s. That is distinct evidence of this Government's commitment to tackling the problems of pensioners—the Government will further tackle them through the introduction of stakeholder pensions. I hope that Alex Neil will pay tribute to that.", "EditedTextHTML": "I regret that Alex Neil has invoked this day of remembrance and then made an extremely partisan point. I do him the credit of thinking that he must know that that comparison with Germany is not like with like. Germany does not have the kinds of occupational pensions structures that we have in this country. Therefore, he is trying to draw a very incomplete comparison.

We all want to improve things for pensioners. I remind Alex Neil that this Government has helped the poorest pensioners by introducing the basic minimum pension guarantee, which is very important to the poorest pensioners. I also remind him that there was a wide welcome for the £100 winter payment, which we have just learned is to be a permanent feature, and that there are free television licences for the over-75s. That is distinct evidence of this Government's commitment to tackling the problems of pensioners—the Government will further tackle them through the introduction of stakeholder pensions. I hope that Alex Neil will pay tribute to that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2068E171P304C711479", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27036, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 265.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27037, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 266.0, "QuestionHeading": "Parliamentary Questions", "QuestionHeadingID": 27046, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 333.0, "DisplayOrder": 333.0, "ID": 27046, "ParentID": 27037 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stone, Jamie", "ID": 2068, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie Stone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "9. Mr Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 334.0, "ContributionID": 711479, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive, further to the answer to question S1W2044 by Donald Dewar on 1 November 1999, what measures it intends to implement to improve on its present performance by giving a substantive answer to all parliamentary questions within the 14-day period. (S1O-584) The Minister for Parliament (Mr Tom McCabe): In my answer to Dr Richard Simpson on 2 September, I announced our intention to undertake an audit to promote effective dissemination and efficient use of resources. There is an obligation on all members to consider relevance, costs and how their actions impact on efficient service to other members.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive, further to the answer to question S1W2044 by Donald Dewar on 1 November 1999, what measures it intends to implement to improve on its present performance by giving a substantive answer to all parliamentary questions within the 14-day period. (S1O-584) The Minister for Parliament (Mr Tom McCabe): In my answer to Dr Richard Simpson on 2 September, I announced our intention to undertake an audit to promote effective dissemination and efficient use of resources. There is an obligation on all members to consider relevance, costs and how their actions impact on efficient service to other members.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2068E171P304C711485", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27036, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 265.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27037, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 266.0, "QuestionHeading": "Parliamentary Questions", "QuestionHeadingID": 27046, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 333.0, "DisplayOrder": 333.0, "ID": 27046, "ParentID": 27037 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stone, Jamie", "ID": 2068, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie Stone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Stone: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 346.0, "ContributionID": 711485, "EditedText": "Could the Scottish Executive, with the civil service, try to clear some of the ones that have been longest outstanding?", "EditedTextHTML": "Could the Scottish Executive, with the civil service, try to clear some of the ones that have been longest outstanding?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711488", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27036, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 265.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27037, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 266.0, "QuestionHeading": "Parliamentary Questions", "QuestionHeadingID": 27046, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 333.0, "DisplayOrder": 333.0, "ID": 27046, "ParentID": 27037 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 352.0, "ContributionID": 711488, "EditedText": "Order.", "EditedTextHTML": "Order.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711496", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27036, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 265.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27037, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 266.0, "QuestionHeading": "Information and Communications Technology", "QuestionHeadingID": 27048, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 361.0, "DisplayOrder": 361.0, "ID": 27048, "ParentID": 27037 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 370.0, "ContributionID": 711496, "EditedText": "A question.", "EditedTextHTML": "A question.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1950E155P451C711499", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27036, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 265.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27037, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 266.0, "QuestionHeading": "Ministry of Defence Contracts", "QuestionHeadingID": 27049, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 376.0, "DisplayOrder": 376.0, "ID": 27049, "ParentID": 27037 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Campbell, Colin", "ID": 1950, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Colin Campbell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "12. Colin Campbell (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 377.0, "ContributionID": 711499, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what representations it has made to Her Majesty's Government to ensure that the Scottish economy benefits to the same extent as other areas of the UK from the placing of Ministry of Defence contracts. (S1O-580)", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what representations it has made to Her Majesty's Government to ensure that the Scottish economy benefits to the same extent as other areas of the UK from the placing of Ministry of Defence contracts. (S1O-580)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2154E194P299C711500", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27036, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 265.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27037, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 266.0, "QuestionHeading": "Ministry of Defence Contracts", "QuestionHeadingID": 27049, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 376.0, "DisplayOrder": 376.0, "ID": 27049, "ParentID": 27037 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stephen, Nicol", "ID": 2154, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Nicol Stephen", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning (Nicol Stephen): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 379.0, "ContributionID": 711500, "EditedText": "The Scottish Executive takes every opportunity to promote the interests of Scottish industry to the benefit of the Scottish economy, including through regular representations to the UK Government.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Scottish Executive takes every opportunity to promote the interests of Scottish industry to the benefit of the Scottish economy, including through regular representations to the UK Government.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2223E203P342C711505", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27036, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 265.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27037, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 266.0, "QuestionHeading": "Infectious Salmon Anaemia", "QuestionHeadingID": 27050, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 389.0, "DisplayOrder": 389.0, "ID": 27050, "ParentID": 27037 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scott, Tavish", "ID": 2223, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Shetland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tavish Scott", "SpeakerDisplayName": "13. Tavish Scott (Shetland) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 390.0, "ContributionID": 711505, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what progress has been made in discussions with the European Commission to relax or modify the regulations relating to the control of infectious salmon anaemia and what further meetings with the Commission are currently proposed. (S1O-552) The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs (Mr John Home Robertson): Following representations from the Scottish Executive, the European Commission published proposals on 21 September 1999 for amendments to the directive that defines the measures that must be taken against ISA. The proposals were given a sympathetic hearing at a council working group of veterinary health experts on 19 October and will now go to a meeting of Community chief veterinary officers later this month. Meanwhile, the views of the European Parliament are being sought. We will continue to maintain close contact with the Commission on these important proposals, particularly in view of the discovery of ISA infection on six Scottish fish farms and in some wild fish last week.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what progress has been made in discussions with the European Commission to relax or modify the regulations relating to the control of infectious salmon anaemia and what further meetings with the Commission are currently proposed. (S1O-552) The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs (Mr John Home Robertson): Following representations from the Scottish Executive, the European Commission published proposals on 21 September 1999 for amendments to the directive that defines the measures that must be taken against ISA. The proposals were given a sympathetic hearing at a council working group of veterinary health experts on 19 October and will now go to a meeting of Community chief veterinary officers later this month. Meanwhile, the views of the European Parliament are being sought. We will continue to maintain close contact with the Commission on these important proposals, particularly in view of the discovery of ISA infection on six Scottish fish farms and in

some wild fish last week.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2223E203P342C711506", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27036, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 265.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27037, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 266.0, "QuestionHeading": "Infectious Salmon Anaemia", "QuestionHeadingID": 27050, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 389.0, "DisplayOrder": 389.0, "ID": 27050, "ParentID": 27037 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scott, Tavish", "ID": 2223, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Shetland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tavish Scott", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tavish Scott: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 392.0, "ContributionID": 711506, "EditedText": "Does the minister accept that the discovery of ISA as far afield as the River Tweed shows that it is a wild disease and that therefore the outcome of the current eradication policy will be simply to eradicate the whole Scottish salmon industry?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the minister accept that the discovery of ISA as far afield as the River Tweed shows that it is a wild disease and that therefore the outcome of the current eradication policy will be simply to eradicate the whole Scottish salmon industry?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C711510", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27036, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 265.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27037, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 266.0, "QuestionHeading": "Prescription Charges", "QuestionHeadingID": 27051, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 396.0, "DisplayOrder": 396.0, "ID": 27051, "ParentID": 27037 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 401.0, "ContributionID": 711510, "EditedText": "I am aware of a number of the points that Mrs Mulligan raised, and I am happy to give detailed written responses to each of them. However, I stress that the subject of prescription charge exemptions is complex and sensitive, and regular representations are received on behalf of many groups. There was a recent review of this matter at UK level but there is no consensus among clinicians on any changes to the system. However, I am happy to comment further on the points that have been raised and to look at how we can improve services and support generally for sufferers of cystic fibrosis and their families.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am aware of a number of the points that Mrs Mulligan raised, and I am happy to give detailed written responses to each of them. However, I stress that the subject of prescription charge exemptions is complex and sensitive, and regular representations are received on behalf of many groups.

There was a recent review of this matter at UK level but there is no consensus among clinicians on any changes to the system. However, I am happy to comment further on the points that have been raised and to look at how we can improve services and support generally for sufferers of cystic fibrosis and their families.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2085E206P337C711511", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27036, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 265.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27037, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 266.0, "QuestionHeading": "Scallop Fishing", "QuestionHeadingID": 27052, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 403.0, "DisplayOrder": 403.0, "ID": 27052, "ParentID": 27037 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Munro, John Farquhar", "ID": 2085, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ross, Skye and Inverness West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Farquhar Munro", "SpeakerDisplayName": "15. Mr John Munro (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 404.0, "ContributionID": 711511, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive, further to the answer to question S1W1660 by Mr John Home Robertson on 6 October, whether it has considered any detailed representations from the fishing industry about the financial impact of the ban on scallop fishing and whether it now plans to give any compensation to scallop farmers who have no means to diversify into any other forms of business. (S1O-583) The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs (Mr John Home Robertson): The Scottish Executive has considered representations from the industry and we share its concern about the continuing need to restrict scallop fishing. We have concluded that compensation for the consequences of natural phenomena could not be justified. However, the problem of access to alternative fisheries will be considered at the next meeting of the Scottish inshore fisheries advisory group. We also understand the impact of the restrictions on scallop farmers, and I hope to meet representatives of the industry shortly.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive, further to the answer to question S1W1660 by Mr John Home Robertson on 6 October, whether it has considered any detailed representations from the fishing industry about the financial impact of the ban on scallop fishing and whether it now plans to give any compensation to scallop farmers who have no means to diversify into any other forms of business. (S1O-583) The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs (Mr John Home Robertson): The Scottish Executive has considered representations from the industry and we share its concern about the continuing need to restrict scallop fishing. We have concluded that compensation for the consequences of natural phenomena could not be justified. However, the problem of access to alternative fisheries will be considered at the next meeting of the Scottish inshore fisheries advisory group. We also understand the impact of the restrictions on scallop farmers, and I hope to meet representatives of the industry shortly.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2100E64P254C711513", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27036, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 265.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27037, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 266.0, "QuestionHeading": "Scallop Fishing", "QuestionHeadingID": 27052, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 403.0, "DisplayOrder": 403.0, "ID": 27052, "ParentID": 27037 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Home Robertson, John", "ID": 2100, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Lothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "John Home Robertson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Home Robertson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 408.0, "ContributionID": 711513, "EditedText": "I stress that the prevention of amnesic shellfish poisoning is primarily the responsibility of the Minister for Health and Community Care. Our scientists are working hard to monitor levels of ASP toxin. I am advised that restrictions can be lifted when they are satisfied that the contamination falls below 20 µg of domoic acid per gram of fish. I am delighted that restrictions were lifted from two scallop farms on Skye on 13 October. I understand that applications from two more farms are making good progress. We must protect consumers from the risk of this disease. That is in the interest of the consumers and the fishermen.", "EditedTextHTML": "I stress that the prevention of amnesic shellfish poisoning is primarily the responsibility of the Minister for Health and Community Care. Our scientists are working hard to monitor levels of ASP toxin. I am advised that restrictions can be lifted when they are satisfied that the contamination falls below 20 µg of domoic acid per gram of fish. I am delighted that restrictions were lifted from two scallop farms on Skye on 13 October. I understand that applications from two more farms are making good progress. We must protect consumers from the risk of this disease. That is in the interest of the consumers and the fishermen.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1985E207P501C711514", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27036, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 265.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27037, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 266.0, "QuestionHeading": "Digital Television", "QuestionHeadingID": 27053, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 410.0, "DisplayOrder": 410.0, "ID": 27053, "ParentID": 27037 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hamilton, Mr Duncan", "ID": 1985, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "16. Mr Duncan Hamilton (Highlands and Islands) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 411.0, "ContributionID": 711514, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what meetings have taken place between it and the Department for Culture, Media and Sport over the issue of digital television as it affects Scotland. (S1O-604) The Minister for Children and Education (Mr Sam Galbraith): The Scottish Executive has ensured that the UK Government is aware of the importance in Scotland of firm guarantees on coverage of digital television.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what meetings have taken place between it and the Department for Culture, Media and Sport over the issue of digital television as it affects Scotland. (S1O-604) The Minister for Children and Education (Mr Sam Galbraith): The Scottish Executive has

ensured that the UK Government is aware of the importance in Scotland of firm guarantees on coverage of digital television.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C711516", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27036, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 265.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27037, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 266.0, "QuestionHeading": "Digital Television", "QuestionHeadingID": 27053, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 410.0, "DisplayOrder": 410.0, "ID": 27053, "ParentID": 27037 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Galbraith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 415.0, "ContributionID": 711516, "EditedText": "The undertaking is that analogue transmission will not be switched off until coverage is at least as good as it is at present. Mr Hamilton will be aware that at present there is not universal coverage of television in Scotland. I am having discussions to investigate whether there is any possibility of extending that coverage. Some of the people who are not covered, but who will be, will be more than 75 years of age. In the light of the chancellor's recent announcement about the licence fee, that will ensure that they not only get coverage, but get it for free.", "EditedTextHTML": "The undertaking is that analogue transmission will not be switched off until coverage is at least as good as it is at present. Mr Hamilton will be aware that at present there is not universal coverage of television in Scotland. I am having discussions to investigate whether there is any possibility of extending that coverage. Some of the people who are not covered, but who will be, will be more than 75 years of age. In the light of the chancellor's recent announcement about the licence fee, that will ensure that they not only get coverage, but get it for free.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C711518", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27036, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 265.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27037, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 266.0, "QuestionHeading": "Digital Television", "QuestionHeadingID": 27053, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 410.0, "DisplayOrder": 410.0, "ID": 27053, "ParentID": 27037 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Galbraith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 419.0, "ContributionID": 711518, "EditedText": "If Mr Hamilton listened to me instead of preparing his next question, he would have heard me say that there is an undertaking that analogue will not be switched off until coverage is at least as good as it is at the moment. That is a firm undertaking.", "EditedTextHTML": "If Mr Hamilton listened to me instead of preparing his next question, he would have heard me say that there is an undertaking that analogue will not be switched off until coverage is at least as good as it is at the moment. That is a firm undertaking.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C711522", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27055, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 428.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27056, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 429.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meeting)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27057, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 430.0, "DisplayOrder": 430.0, "ID": 27057, "ParentID": 27056 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "1. Mr Alex Salmond (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 431.0, "ContributionID": 711522, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive when the First Minister last met the Secretary of State for Scotland and what issues they discussed. (S1O593) The First Minister (Donald Dewar): Matters of common concern.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive when the First Minister last met the Secretary of State for Scotland and what issues they discussed. (S1O593) The First Minister (Donald Dewar): Matters of common concern.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C711525", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27055, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 428.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27056, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 429.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meeting)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27057, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 430.0, "DisplayOrder": 430.0, "ID": 27057, "ParentID": 27056 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 437.0, "ContributionID": 711525, "EditedText": "I have.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C711528", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27055, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 428.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27056, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 429.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meeting)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27057, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 430.0, "DisplayOrder": 430.0, "ID": 27057, "ParentID": 27056 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 443.0, "ContributionID": 711528, "EditedText": "There is always a danger of arguing by caricature. Alex Salmond should wait to see what the revised composition of the House of Lords will be before jumping to assumptions. At the end of the paragraph that he cites, he will see that I reject the argument for a revising chamber and suggest that effective and properly operating committees are one of the best safeguards against that kind of thesis. I hope that no one will object if I say that the speech was subtle, in the sense that it dealt with the way in which this Parliament works and ought to work. No one is more committed than I am to making it work. I do not interpret the speech as a criticism of individuals. It was a useful contribution to a debate, and I am delighted that it has attracted so much attention from so distinguished a source.", "EditedTextHTML": "There is always a danger of arguing by caricature. Alex Salmond should wait to see what the revised composition of the House of Lords will be before jumping to assumptions. At the end of the paragraph that he cites, he will see that I reject the argument for a revising chamber and suggest that effective and properly operating committees are one of the best safeguards against that kind of thesis. I hope that no one will object if I say that the speech was subtle, in the sense that it dealt with the way in which this Parliament works and ought to work. No one is more committed than I am to making it work. I do not interpret the speech as a criticism of individuals. It was a useful contribution to a debate, and I am delighted that it has attracted so much attention from so distinguished a source.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C711536", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27055, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 428.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27056, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 429.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meeting)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27057, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 430.0, "DisplayOrder": 430.0, "ID": 27057, "ParentID": 27056 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 459.0, "ContributionID": 711536, "EditedText": "I am delighted to hear that, on this occasion at least, the First Minister is a model of consistency or, perhaps, predictability. I am also pleased to hear that the so-called father of the Parliament will not be putting the child up for adoption by the House of Lords just because it has a mind of its own. Away from the constitutional musings of Mr Salmond, I ask the First Minister whether he and the Secretary of State for Scotland have discussed the continuing diplomatic shambles surrounding the continued French ban on our beef. I remind him that last week the Minister for Rural Affairs said that he was expecting an early resolution of the matter. That was backed up by the Prime Minister, who said that the problem would be over in a matter of days. Has the Scottish Executive revised its opinion in light of recent developments as to the appropriate strategy and will the First Minister and the Minister for Rural Affairs put some backbone into the spineless Mr Brown?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am delighted to hear that, on this occasion at least, the First Minister is a model of consistency or, perhaps, predictability.

I am also pleased to hear that the so-called father of the Parliament will not be putting the child up for adoption by the House of Lords just because it has a mind of its own.

Away from the constitutional musings of Mr Salmond, I ask the First Minister whether he and the Secretary of State for Scotland have discussed the continuing diplomatic shambles surrounding the continued French ban on our beef. I remind him that last week the Minister for Rural Affairs said that he was expecting an early resolution of the matter. That was backed up by the Prime Minister, who said that the problem would be over in a matter of days.

Has the Scottish Executive revised its opinion in light of recent developments as to the appropriate strategy and will the First Minister and the Minister for Rural Affairs put some backbone into the spineless Mr Brown?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C711537", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27055, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 428.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27056, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 429.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meeting)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27057, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 430.0, "DisplayOrder": 430.0, "ID": 27057, "ParentID": 27056 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 461.0, "ContributionID": 711537, "EditedText": "I saw Mr Brown last night and I do not regard him as spineless. Everyone had an interest in the removal of the possibility of extended and frustrating court proceedings. When it was suggested that some technical advice might clear the way to an early settlement and the lifting of the ban, it seemed sensible to pursue that course of action. Any reasonable man would have taken that option, given the time scale involved. I share the regret felt by everyone in the chamber that the French have felt unable to follow the scientific advice from the European Union, the advice from the Commission and the diplomatic—I use that word technically—advice from the United Kingdom. I hope that the French will think again. If they do not, I understand that the Commission will pursue court action within days. That is an unhappy situation for all of us and one that Westminster—with the full support of the Scottish Executive—has tried very hard to avoid.", "EditedTextHTML": "I saw Mr Brown last night and I do not regard him as spineless.

Everyone had an interest in the removal of the possibility of extended and frustrating court proceedings. When it was suggested that some technical advice might clear the way to an early settlement and the lifting of the ban, it seemed sensible to pursue that course of action. Any reasonable man would have taken that option, given the time scale involved.

I share the regret felt by everyone in the chamber that the French have felt unable to follow the scientific advice from the European Union, the advice from the Commission and the diplomatic—I use that word technically—advice from the United Kingdom. I hope that the French will think again. If they do not, I understand that the Commission will pursue court action within days. That is an unhappy situation for all of us and one that Westminster—with the full support of the Scottish Executive—has tried very hard to avoid.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C711539", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27055, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 428.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27056, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 429.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meeting)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27057, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 430.0, "DisplayOrder": 430.0, "ID": 27057, "ParentID": 27056 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 465.0, "ContributionID": 711539, "EditedText": "The support of the Executive and—despite the fencing that is going on at the moment—the Parliament for the reestablishment of Scottish beef in its traditional markets is total. Sadly, France was one of the most important of those markets and provided a significant proportion of the £120 million that the market was worth. We have been co-operating well with the National Farmers Union of Scotland. Ross Finnie has played an energetic role in that, and yesterday I talked to Ben Gill of the National Farmers Union in England. I am sure that all of us are pulling in the same direction. The beef-on-the-bone ban is an extremely difficult issue. As Mr McLetchie knows, we are urging the French to give ground in the face of scientific evidence. Three of the four chief medical officers in the United Kingdom are advising that it is not safe to lift the ban. In those circumstances, we have to think long and carefully. Further work is going ahead. The risk assessment from the Oxford group is just becoming available. There will be further meetings in the near future, but it is important that we move—for obvious practical reasons if no other, which I am sure David McLetchie will appreciate— on a United Kingdom basis. We will move as soon as the scientific evidence allows us to.", "EditedTextHTML": "The support of the Executive and—despite the fencing that is going on at the moment—the Parliament for the reestablishment of Scottish beef in its traditional markets is total. Sadly, France was one of the most important of those markets and provided a significant proportion of the £120 million that the market was worth.

We have been co-operating well with the National Farmers Union of Scotland. Ross Finnie has played an energetic role in that, and yesterday I talked to Ben Gill of the National Farmers Union in England. I am sure that all of us are pulling in the same direction.

The beef-on-the-bone ban is an extremely difficult issue. As Mr McLetchie knows, we are urging the French to give ground in the face of scientific evidence. Three of the four chief medical officers in the United Kingdom are advising that it is not safe to lift the ban. In those circumstances, we have to think long and carefully.

Further work is going ahead. The risk assessment from the Oxford group is just becoming available. There will be further meetings in the near future, but it is important that we move—for obvious practical reasons if no other, which I am sure David McLetchie will appreciate— on a United Kingdom basis. We will move as soon as the scientific evidence allows us to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C711541", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27055, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 428.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27056, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 429.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meeting)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27057, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 430.0, "DisplayOrder": 430.0, "ID": 27057, "ParentID": 27056 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Donald Dewar: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 469.0, "ContributionID": 711541, "EditedText": "I can assure Margo MacDonald that we still co-operate fully with the police. I sign warrants under the interception laws. That is fairly common. These are important matters and there is proper scrutiny of any application for a warrant. We will shortly examine the business of new, intrusive surveillance techniques; there will almost certainly be legislation on that. I am sure Margo MacDonald will take a great interest in that.", "EditedTextHTML": "I can assure Margo MacDonald that we still co-operate fully with the police. I sign warrants under the interception laws. That is fairly common. These are important matters and there is proper scrutiny of any application for a warrant. We will shortly examine the business of new, intrusive surveillance techniques; there will almost certainly be legislation on that. I am sure Margo

MacDonald will take a great interest in that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1850E185P354C711542", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27055, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 428.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27056, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 429.0, "QuestionHeading": "Local Government Act 1986", "QuestionHeadingID": 27058, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 27058, "ParentID": 27056 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Radcliffe, Nora", "ID": 1850, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Gordon" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nora Radcliffe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "3. Nora Radcliffe (Gordon) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 472.0, "ContributionID": 711542, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what time frame it envisages for the repeal of section 2A of the Local Government Act 1986 and what further steps it plans to take to end discrimination against homosexuals in Scotland. (S1O-562) The Minister for Communities (Ms Wendy Alexander): As I announced on 29 October, we will provide for the repeal of section 2A in the ethical standards in public life bill, which we intend to introduce early in the new year. The Scottish Executive is committed to tackling exclusion in all walks of life. Towards the end of this year, we will outline our approach to equality issues more generally.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what time frame it envisages for the repeal of section 2A of the Local Government Act 1986 and what further steps it plans to take to end discrimination against homosexuals in Scotland. (S1O-562) The Minister for Communities (Ms Wendy Alexander): As I announced on 29 October, we will provide for the repeal of section 2A in the ethical standards in public life bill, which we intend to introduce early in the new year. The Scottish Executive is committed to tackling exclusion in all walks of life. Towards the end of this year, we will outline our approach to equality issues more generally.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C711544", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27055, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 428.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27056, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 429.0, "QuestionHeading": "Local Government Act 1986", "QuestionHeadingID": 27058, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 27058, "ParentID": 27056 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 476.0, "ContributionID": 711544, "EditedText": "The Millan committee is looking at the definition of nearest relative. Any proposed changes could be incorporated in the Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Millan committee is looking at the definition of nearest relative. Any proposed changes could be incorporated in the Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711550", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27055, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 428.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27056, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 429.0, "QuestionHeading": "Local Government Act 1986", "QuestionHeadingID": 27058, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 27058, "ParentID": 27056 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 488.0, "ContributionID": 711550, "EditedText": "I listened very carefully to Tom McCabe's reply to Jamie Stone. He is correct: the bureau is looking at this issue very seriously. We have not completed our consideration and Mr Canavan and any other member is welcome to submit to us any evidence that they might have. We have already had letters from some members.", "EditedTextHTML": "I listened very carefully to Tom McCabe's reply to Jamie Stone. He is correct: the bureau is looking at this issue very seriously. We have not completed our consideration and Mr Canavan and any other member is welcome to submit to us any evidence that they might have. We have already had letters from some members.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1863E284P532C711553", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Temporary Sheriffs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27059, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 490.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 490.0, "ID": 27059, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Cunningham, Roseanna", "ID": 1863, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Perth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Roseanna Cunningham", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Roseanna Cunningham (Perth) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 496.0, "ContributionID": 711553, "EditedText": "The decision clearly has enormous practical implications for Scottish justice, some of which the minister has dealt with in his statement. He mentioned temporary judges, but already it has been suggested to me that there may be a challenge to the children's panel system on the same basis. Will the minister give a commitment to Parliament that an audit of Scotland's justice system will be carried out to identify other potential problem areas? There is another, more far- reaching implication about which I have great concern: the perceived impact of the European convention on human rights. Why was this likely application of the convention not foreseen? What does that say about the advice that the Executive receives regarding the general impact of the European convention on human rights? Will the minister reflect on the necessity of getting accurate advice on the effect of the European convention on human rights? Will he consider setting up a human rights commission for Scotland in order to achieve that?", "EditedTextHTML": "The decision clearly has enormous practical implications for Scottish justice, some of which the minister has dealt with in his statement. He mentioned temporary judges, but already it has been suggested to me that there may be a challenge to the children's panel system on the same basis.

Will the minister give a commitment to Parliament that an audit of Scotland's justice system will be carried out to identify other potential problem areas? There is another, more far- reaching implication about which I have great concern: the perceived impact of the European convention on human rights. Why was this likely application of the convention not foreseen? What does that say about the advice that the Executive receives regarding the general impact of the European convention on human rights?

Will the minister reflect on the necessity of getting accurate advice on the effect of the European convention on human rights? Will he consider setting up a human rights commission for Scotland in order to achieve that?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C711554", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Temporary Sheriffs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27059, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 490.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 490.0, "ID": 27059, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 498.0, "ContributionID": 711554, "EditedText": "I agree with Ms Cunningham that the judgment has important practical implications for the administration of justice in Scotland. I note what she says about the children's panel system. When considering the terms of the three opinions that have been issued today, the law officers and the people who advise the Executive will want thoroughly to consider their impact and implications for all parts of our justice system. Ms Cunningham is being somewhat disingenuous when she suggests that the Executive or its advisers have been deficient in their approach to European convention on human rights issues. She will recall that it is less than six months since the Lord Advocate took on the European convention on human rights considerations in the Scottish courts. All actions of Government have been covered by the convention since 1966, when the UK Government allowed the right of individual petition to the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg. From 1 July 1999, the Executive became subject to European convention on human rights requirements in terms of our actions as they are justiciable in the Scottish courts. The court actions were brought at a relatively early stage, since we became subject to European convention on human rights considerations. The Executive had already taken steps to address a possible adverse finding. It is important to emphasise that steps had already been taken. I hope that Ms Cunningham is in no way suggesting that we should back off from an ECHR culture. It is important that we have a human rights culture in Scotland. As she may be aware, we are considering having a human rights commission. There are pros and cons to that, but we have not put it off the agenda.", "EditedTextHTML": "I agree with Ms Cunningham that the judgment has important practical implications for the administration of justice in Scotland. I note what she says about the children's panel system. When considering the terms of the three opinions that have been issued today, the law officers and the people who advise the Executive will want thoroughly to consider their impact and implications for all parts of our justice system.

Ms Cunningham is being somewhat disingenuous when she suggests that the Executive or its advisers have been deficient in their approach to European convention on human rights issues. She will recall that it is less than six months since the Lord Advocate took on the European convention on human rights considerations in the Scottish courts.

All actions of Government have been covered by the convention since 1966, when the UK Government allowed the right of individual petition to the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg. From 1 July 1999, the Executive became subject to European convention on human rights requirements in terms of our actions as they are justiciable in the Scottish courts.

The court actions were brought at a relatively early stage, since we became subject to European convention on human rights considerations. The Executive had already taken steps to address a possible adverse finding. It is important to emphasise that steps had already been taken.

I hope that Ms Cunningham is in no way suggesting that we should back off from an ECHR culture. It is important that we have a human rights culture in Scotland. As she may be aware, we are considering having a human rights commission. There are pros and cons to that, but we have not put it off the agenda.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C711556", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Temporary Sheriffs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27059, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 490.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 490.0, "ID": 27059, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 502.0, "ContributionID": 711556, "EditedText": "Although the chair has not previously restricted the number of questions, that was quite a run, Mr McLetchie.", "EditedTextHTML": "Although the chair has not previously restricted the number of questions, that was quite a run, Mr McLetchie.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C711559", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Temporary Sheriffs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27059, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 490.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 490.0, "ID": 27059, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 508.0, "ContributionID": 711559, "EditedText": "I agree with Mr Gorrie that temporary sheriffs are indeed very worthy ladies and gentlemen. It is important to point out that their lordships did not accuse temporary sheriffs of any partiality; indeed, they commended the integrity with which they carried out their judicial role. We will have to examine the position of temporary sheriffs in the light of this judgment. I have made it clear that temporary sheriffs will not be taking any new criminal and civil cases. As for criminal cases that have already been started, we will follow similar procedures to those advocated by the High Court in this case. The temporary sheriff will be asked to discharge the diet and a new case will start before a permanent sheriff. The Executive picks up Mr Gorrie's point. We wanted a greater shift towards permanent sheriffs and, in expectation of this judgment, had advertised for 10 such appointments. However, had the court come out in favour of the Crown, we still would have made that switch to right the balance between temporary and permanent sheriffs.", "EditedTextHTML": "I agree with Mr Gorrie that temporary sheriffs are indeed very worthy ladies and gentlemen. It is important to point out that their lordships did not accuse temporary sheriffs of any partiality; indeed, they commended the integrity with which they carried out their judicial role.

We will have to examine the position of temporary sheriffs in the light of this judgment. I have made it clear that temporary sheriffs will not be taking any new criminal and civil cases. As for criminal cases that have already been started, we will follow similar procedures to those advocated by the High Court in this case. The temporary sheriff will be asked to discharge the diet and a new case will start before a permanent sheriff.

The Executive picks up Mr Gorrie's point. We wanted a greater shift towards permanent sheriffs and, in expectation of this judgment, had advertised for 10 such appointments. However, had the court come out in favour of the Crown, we still would have made that switch to right the balance between temporary and permanent sheriffs.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1990E181P340C711562", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Temporary Sheriffs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27059, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 490.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 490.0, "ID": 27059, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robson, Euan", "ID": 1990, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Roxburgh and Berwickshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Euan Robson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Euan Robson (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 514.0, "ContributionID": 711562, "EditedText": "Does the Minister for Justice accept that it would be wrong to allow an undue backlog of civil cases to develop? There have already been concerns about the rise in such cases. Furthermore, will today's judgment have any implications for judgments that have been made in civil cases since May?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the Minister for Justice accept that it would be wrong to allow an undue backlog of civil cases to develop? There have already been concerns about the rise in such cases. Furthermore, will today's judgment have any implications for judgments that have been made in civil cases since May?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C711567", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Temporary Sheriffs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27059, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 490.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 490.0, "ID": 27059, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 524.0, "ContributionID": 711567, "EditedText": "I apologise if I did not pick up the precise point that Mrs Grahame was making about the amended mental health legislation. I am content that on the basis of the advice that I was given, the legislation is safe. I could not in good conscience or in law have asked Parliament to consider the bill unless I was able to certify that I believed it to be compliant with the European convention on human rights. We should not forget, however, that even though we may believe that we are doing the right thing— with all the good advice that we have—and that legislation is ECHR compliant, we have courts because it is the right if every citizen, and the courts, to challenge the Executive. This country does not operate by way of Executive diktat. It is proper that such things are a matter for the courts, despite that fact that the Executive may occasionally find itself on the wrong side of their decisions. That is part and parcel of belonging to a country in which the rule of law applies.", "EditedTextHTML": "I apologise if I did not pick up the precise point that Mrs Grahame was making about the amended mental health legislation. I am content that on the basis of the advice that I was given, the legislation is safe. I could not in good conscience or in law have asked Parliament to consider the bill unless I was able to certify that I believed it to be compliant with the European convention on human rights.

We should not forget, however, that even though we may believe that we are doing the right thing— with all the good advice that we have—and that legislation is ECHR compliant, we have courts because it is the right if every citizen, and the courts, to challenge the Executive. This country does not operate by way of Executive diktat. It is proper that such things are a matter for the courts, despite that fact that the Executive may occasionally find itself on the wrong side of their decisions. That is part and parcel of belonging to a country in which the rule of law applies.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C711572", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Temporary Sheriffs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27059, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 490.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 490.0, "ID": 27059, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 534.0, "ContributionID": 711572, "EditedText": "That concludes the questions and answers on temporary sheriffs.", "EditedTextHTML": "That concludes the questions and answers on temporary sheriffs.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1863E284P532C711575", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Subordinate Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27060, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 536.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 536.0, "ID": 27060, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Cunningham, Roseanna", "ID": 1863, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Perth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Roseanna Cunningham", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Roseanna Cunningham (Perth) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 543.0, "ContributionID": 711575, "EditedText": "I doubt that the minister will find much disagreement this afternoon about this order, although, given this morning's ruling on the temporary sheriffs and the effect that that will have throughout the system, it may be that rather more than five judges will need to be added to the existing complement. We may have another order before us at some time in the future. I note that the Scottish Parliament information centre's research note flagged up that potential problem. The minister may wish to indicate whether he has considered the possibility that he may have to come back with another order asking for yet more judges. We are all aware that Scotland's justice system has been under considerable strain. Many members will have received letters about the lengthy delays that occur, particularly in the civil courts, and which have attracted widespread critical comment from judges as well as others. To add to the existing strain on the system, we know that we are facing further pressure from the requirements imposed by the Lockerbie trial and from the appointment of Lord Cullen to head up the Paddington rail inquiry. However, we should welcome those extra impositions. The Lockerbie trial promises to showcase Scottish criminal justice internationally, in a way that has seldom, if ever, happened before. In Scotland, we know that our criminal justice system is second to none, whatever its faults. Being a small jurisdiction, we are aware that few outside Scotland and outside the narrow professional interest are familiar with the strengths of our system. We should be glad that, as a result of the international news coverage that the Lockerbie trial will achieve, the world will have an opportunity to see at first hand what we have known for a very long time. The choice—once again—of Lord Cullen to head a major public inquiry is another feather in the cap of the Scottish judiciary. I am sure that the whole Parliament will join me in congratulating him on that appointment. While today's order is a response to a potential crisis, it should not be seen in a negative light. Indeed, when the appointments are made, it will be the first time that the provisions of section 95 of the Scotland Act 1998 have been implemented. We sometimes forget that this Parliament is so new that we are still chalking up firsts. This will be another one. That opens up the general debate about judicial appointments and raises the question whether the methods by which they are made are the best we can devise. As I recall—my colleague Michael Russell also mentioned this—the partnership agreement between the Labour party and the Liberal Democrats stated that judicial appointments should be examined. The SNP's view, certainly, is that the process should be radically revised. That means that there is likely to be widespread agreement in the chamber that reform is appropriate. I will not go out of order by debating the issue in detail today; however, I welcome the minister's comments on the subject. I hope that, as a result of this debate and of the statement and questions that preceded it, the business managers will consider setting aside time in the near future for a specific and full debate on the subject of judicial appointments. For today, and for the SNP, I simply record our agreement with the order.", "EditedTextHTML": "I doubt that the minister will find much disagreement this afternoon about this order, although, given this morning's ruling on the temporary sheriffs and the effect that that will have throughout the system, it may be that rather more than five judges will need to be added to the existing complement. We may have another order before us at some time in the future. I note that the Scottish Parliament information centre's research note flagged up that potential problem. The minister may wish to indicate whether he has considered the possibility that he may have to come back with another order asking for yet more judges.

We are all aware that Scotland's justice system has been under considerable strain. Many members will have received letters about the lengthy delays that occur, particularly in the civil courts, and which have attracted widespread critical comment from judges as well as others. To add to the existing strain on the system, we know that we are facing further pressure from the requirements imposed by the Lockerbie trial and from the appointment of Lord Cullen to head up the Paddington rail inquiry.

However, we should welcome those extra impositions. The Lockerbie trial promises to showcase Scottish criminal justice internationally, in a way that has seldom, if ever, happened before. In Scotland, we know that our criminal justice system is second to none, whatever its faults. Being a small jurisdiction, we are aware that few outside Scotland and outside the narrow professional interest are familiar with the strengths of our system. We should be glad that, as a result of the international news coverage that the Lockerbie trial will achieve, the world will have an opportunity to see at first hand what we have known for a very long time.

The choice—once again—of Lord Cullen to head a major public inquiry is another feather in the cap of the Scottish judiciary. I am sure that the whole Parliament will join me in congratulating him on that appointment.

While today's order is a response to a potential crisis, it should not be seen in a negative light. Indeed, when the appointments are made, it will be the first time that the provisions of section 95 of the Scotland Act 1998 have been implemented. We sometimes forget that this Parliament is so new that we are still chalking up firsts. This will be another one.

That opens up the general debate about judicial appointments and raises the question whether the methods by which they are made are the best we can devise. As I recall—my colleague Michael Russell also mentioned this—the partnership agreement between the Labour party and the Liberal Democrats stated that judicial appointments should be examined. The SNP's view, certainly, is that the process should be radically revised. That means that there is likely to be widespread agreement in the chamber that reform is appropriate. I will not go out of order by debating the issue in detail today; however, I welcome the minister's comments on the subject.

I hope that, as a result of this debate and of the statement and questions that preceded it, the business managers will consider setting aside time in the near future for a specific and full debate on the subject of judicial appointments. For today, and for the SNP, I simply record our agreement with the order.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711606", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27061, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 608.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 608.0, "ID": 27061, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 613.0, "ContributionID": 711606, "EditedText": "That the Parliament agrees that the Food Protection (Emergency Prohibitions) (Amnesic Shellfish Poisoning) (North Coast) (Scotland) Order 1999 (SSI 1999/125) be approved.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament agrees that the Food Protection (Emergency Prohibitions) (Amnesic Shellfish Poisoning) (North Coast) (Scotland) Order 1999 (SSI 1999/125) be approved.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C711574", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Subordinate Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27060, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 536.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 536.0, "ID": 27060, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice (Mr Jim Wallace): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 540.0, "ContributionID": 711574, "EditedText": "The order which we are considering today is the legislative vehicle for increasing the maximum number of judges who serve in Scotland's supreme courts. Prior to today's debate, members were provided with a brief note on the background to the order. I hope that that was helpful, but I will take a few minutes to explain in more detail why we consider it essential that the order be approved today. The supreme courts are Scotland's flagship for the delivery of justice to our people. The judges who have the task of dispensing justice have a huge responsibility, and I believe that they carry it out with distinction. The reputation of the supreme courts is justifiably high, and it is in the interest of all of us that it remains so. The most recent evidence of that reputation is clear from the appointment of Lord Cullen, the Lord Justice- Clerk, to lead the inquiry into the Paddington rail crash. Lord Cullen's reputation in dealing with national disasters was firmly established in his sensitive handling of the inquiry into the Piper Alpha tragedy and, more recently, of the inquiry into the shootings at Dunblane Primary School. Another compliment to the reputation of the supreme court bench may be seen in the appointment of Lord Reed to serve as an ad hoc judge of the European Court of Human Rights at Strasbourg. On other fronts, judges serve with distinction on some of our key public institutions such as the Parole Board for Scotland and the Boundary Commission for Scotland. A judge also heads the Scottish Law Commission, which has produced many valuable reports on aspects of the law over the years, a number of which have contributed greatly to the modernisation of our domestic legislation and will form the basis for legislation to be brought forward by this Parliament. Judges also take on responsibilities for chairing ad hoc committees on issues of public concern. I have in mind the review of serious violent sex offenders, chaired by Lord Maclean, and the expert panel on supervision of sex offenders in the community, chaired by Lady Cosgrove. Scotland's worldwide reputation is also evidentfrom the constant stream of visitors from legal jurisdictions around the world who come to Parliament House to see our systems in operation. In the very first week of the Scottish Parliament, we were honoured to host the Worldwide Common Law Judiciary Conference in Edinburgh, represented by common-law judges from around the globe. Next year, the Scottish judiciary will receive the Commonwealth Magistrates and Judges Association's conference, with 400 of the most senior judiciary in all Commonwealth countries converging on Edinburgh for a week of discussions about issues of common concern. Those events serve only to demonstrate the international reputation of Scotland's court system. As we gather today, however, Scotland's senior judge, the Lord President, faces the imminent loss of nearly 20 per cent of his complement of senior judges, when four of them depart from around the end of January to take the Lockerbie trial in Holland and Lord Cullen assumes full-time duties with the Paddington rail inquiry. Lord Rodger has a statutory responsibility for managing the business programme of the supreme courts under the Court of Session Act 1988. The view he has conveyed to ministers is that the domestic programme of the supreme courts must not be allowed to suffer as a result of losing such a significant number of judges to other important tasks. Lord Rodger has drawn attention to the heavy programme of business in the courts, and has noted that the provisions of the Scotland Act 1998 and the Human Rights Act 1998 will, if anything, add to the work load. The experience of applications relating to devolution issues suggests that human rights points will have a very significant impact on the business of the supreme courts. I believe that the case for an increase in the number of judges is a very strong one, and we would not be thanked by the many who use the courts if we allowed the system to operate at 20 per cent below strength for the period of the Lockerbie trial and the Paddington inquiry. Delays in handling business, particularly in the Court of Criminal Appeal, are already at higher levels than one would wish, and the Lord Justice-General is examining ways of speeding up the process in consultation with all the parties who are involved in the appeals system. Any failure to provide enough judges to hear cases would guarantee increased delay and frustration for those who look to the courts to deliver justice. Let me clarify what the Executive is asking of the Parliament today. We seek the authority to increase the maximum number of judges by five, although that does not mean that five new permanent appointments will be made automatically within weeks of the order being approved. Lord Rodger is considering the position carefully in the knowledge that all or most of the five judges who are deployed to the Lockerbie trial and the Paddington inquiry will return to Edinburgh when those tasks are over. It is expected that there will be some natural wastage from early retirements and, in the longer term, the complement may revert to something nearer the current maximum of 27. However, this is not an exact science. In the next few weeks, the Lord President will put his final proposals to ministers in the light of his assessment of the work load facing the supreme courts over the next few years. We should clear the way today for five new appointments to secure continuity of service to court users. The cost of five new judges would be about £700,000 in a full year and these costs will fall on the Scottish consolidated fund. However, there are substantial offsetting receipts to be taken into account. For example, the Treasury will meet 80 per cent of the cost of the Lockerbie judges under special arrangements for meeting the revenue costs of that trial. The Health and Safety Executive, which is responsible for the investigation of the Paddington rail inquiry, will meet the whole of Lord Cullen's costs. These receipts will be available to offset the cost of employing new judges. I should like to take this opportunity to anticipate a question or two about our procedures for appointing the judiciary in Scotland, which Mr Russell raised during my earlier statement. If the order is approved today, the new judges will have to be appointed in time to take the place of those leaving in January. Procedures for appointing judges are set out in section 95 of the Scotland Act 1998, under which the First Minister will recommend names to Her Majesty the Queen but, before doing so, he must consult the Lord President. In addition, like all his predecessors, he will receive advice from the Lord Advocate, who is well placed to offer opinions on the quality of those who should be considered for these important public appointments. Looking beyond these immediate appointments, I confirm that it is the intention of the Executive to consult widely on the future arrangements for the appointment of sheriffs and judges. The partnership agreement published by the coalition in July gave notice of our intention to consult and we are not departing from that. Indeed, we are preparing to launch the consultation process and we shall be ready to listen to views from all quarters on possible changes in our system. That is not to say that the traditional arrangements for recommending appointments have let us down. I have already referred to the excellent general reputation of those appointed to the supreme court bench and the further particular contribution of several of its individual members. The order is important and, by approving it, Parliament will signal that it values the high reputation of Scotland's supreme courts and that it is determined to maintain that reputation. That will tell the people of Scotland that the Parliament acknowledges the importance of maintaining the quality of service to those who use the supreme courts to secure justice. I move,That the Parliament in consideration of the Maximum Number of Judges (Scotland) Order 1999 recommends that the Draft Order in Council be approved.", "EditedTextHTML": "The order which we are considering today is the legislative vehicle for increasing the maximum number of judges who serve in Scotland's supreme courts. Prior to today's debate, members were provided with a brief note on the background to the order. I hope that that was helpful, but I will take a few minutes to explain in more detail why we consider it essential that the order be approved today.

The supreme courts are Scotland's flagship for the delivery of justice to our people. The judges who have the task of dispensing justice have a huge responsibility, and I believe that they carry it out with distinction. The reputation of the supreme courts is justifiably high, and it is in the interest of all of us that it remains so. The most recent evidence of that reputation is clear from the appointment of Lord Cullen, the Lord Justice- Clerk, to lead the inquiry into the Paddington rail crash. Lord Cullen's reputation in dealing with national disasters was firmly established in his sensitive handling of the inquiry into the Piper Alpha tragedy and, more recently, of the inquiry into the shootings at Dunblane Primary School.

Another compliment to the reputation of the supreme court bench may be seen in the appointment of Lord Reed to serve as an ad hoc judge of the European Court of Human Rights at Strasbourg. On other fronts, judges serve with distinction on some of our key public institutions such as the Parole Board for Scotland and the Boundary Commission for Scotland. A judge also heads the Scottish Law Commission, which has produced many valuable reports on aspects of the law over the years, a number of which have contributed greatly to the modernisation of our domestic legislation and will form the basis for legislation to be brought forward by this Parliament. Judges also take on responsibilities for chairing ad hoc committees on issues of public concern. I have in mind the review of serious violent sex offenders, chaired by Lord Maclean, and the expert panel on supervision of sex offenders in the community, chaired by Lady Cosgrove.

Scotland's worldwide reputation is also evident

from the constant stream of visitors from legal jurisdictions around the world who come to Parliament House to see our systems in operation. In the very first week of the Scottish Parliament, we were honoured to host the Worldwide Common Law Judiciary Conference in Edinburgh, represented by common-law judges from around the globe. Next year, the Scottish judiciary will receive the Commonwealth Magistrates and Judges Association's conference, with 400 of the most senior judiciary in all Commonwealth countries converging on Edinburgh for a week of discussions about issues of common concern. Those events serve only to demonstrate the international reputation of Scotland's court system.

As we gather today, however, Scotland's senior judge, the Lord President, faces the imminent loss of nearly 20 per cent of his complement of senior judges, when four of them depart from around the end of January to take the Lockerbie trial in Holland and Lord Cullen assumes full-time duties with the Paddington rail inquiry. Lord Rodger has a statutory responsibility for managing the business programme of the supreme courts under the Court of Session Act 1988. The view he has conveyed to ministers is that the domestic programme of the supreme courts must not be allowed to suffer as a result of losing such a significant number of judges to other important tasks. Lord Rodger has drawn attention to the heavy programme of business in the courts, and has noted that the provisions of the Scotland Act 1998 and the Human Rights Act 1998 will, if anything, add to the work load. The experience of applications relating to devolution issues suggests that human rights points will have a very significant impact on the business of the supreme courts.

I believe that the case for an increase in the number of judges is a very strong one, and we would not be thanked by the many who use the courts if we allowed the system to operate at 20 per cent below strength for the period of the Lockerbie trial and the Paddington inquiry. Delays in handling business, particularly in the Court of Criminal Appeal, are already at higher levels than one would wish, and the Lord Justice-General is examining ways of speeding up the process in consultation with all the parties who are involved in the appeals system. Any failure to provide enough judges to hear cases would guarantee increased delay and frustration for those who look to the courts to deliver justice.

Let me clarify what the Executive is asking of the Parliament today. We seek the authority to increase the maximum number of judges by five, although that does not mean that five new permanent appointments will be made automatically within weeks of the order being approved. Lord Rodger is considering the position carefully in the knowledge that all or most of the five judges who are deployed to the Lockerbie trial and the Paddington inquiry will return to Edinburgh when those tasks are over. It is expected that there will be some natural wastage from early retirements and, in the longer term, the complement may revert to something nearer the current maximum of 27. However, this is not an exact science. In the next few weeks, the Lord President will put his final proposals to ministers in the light of his assessment of the work load facing the supreme courts over the next few years. We should clear the way today for five new appointments to secure continuity of service to court users.

The cost of five new judges would be about £700,000 in a full year and these costs will fall on the Scottish consolidated fund. However, there are substantial offsetting receipts to be taken into account. For example, the Treasury will meet 80 per cent of the cost of the Lockerbie judges under special arrangements for meeting the revenue costs of that trial. The Health and Safety Executive, which is responsible for the investigation of the Paddington rail inquiry, will meet the whole of Lord Cullen's costs. These receipts will be available to offset the cost of employing new judges.

I should like to take this opportunity to anticipate a question or two about our procedures for appointing the judiciary in Scotland, which Mr Russell raised during my earlier statement. If the order is approved today, the new judges will have to be appointed in time to take the place of those leaving in January. Procedures for appointing judges are set out in section 95 of the Scotland Act 1998, under which the First Minister will recommend names to Her Majesty the Queen but, before doing so, he must consult the Lord President. In addition, like all his predecessors, he will receive advice from the Lord Advocate, who is well placed to offer opinions on the quality of those who should be considered for these important public appointments.

Looking beyond these immediate appointments, I confirm that it is the intention of the Executive to consult widely on the future arrangements for the appointment of sheriffs and judges. The partnership agreement published by the coalition in July gave notice of our intention to consult and we are not departing from that. Indeed, we are preparing to launch the consultation process and we shall be ready to listen to views from all quarters on possible changes in our system. That is not to say that the traditional arrangements for recommending appointments have let us down. I have already referred to the excellent general reputation of those appointed to the supreme court bench and the further particular contribution of several of its individual members.

The order is important and, by approving it, Parliament will signal that it values the high reputation of Scotland's supreme courts and that it is determined to maintain that reputation. That will tell the people of Scotland that the Parliament acknowledges the importance of maintaining the quality of service to those who use the supreme courts to secure justice.

I move,

That the Parliament in consideration of the Maximum Number of Judges (Scotland) Order 1999 recommends that the Draft Order in Council be approved.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2234E7P20C711578", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Subordinate Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27060, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 536.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 536.0, "ID": 27060, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Aitken, Bill", "ID": 2234, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bill Aitken", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bill Aitken (Glasgow) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 552.0, "ContributionID": 711578, "EditedText": "I do not think that anybody could reasonably take exception to what is being proposed today. Society in general is becoming much more litigious; we must accept that. Civil law, in particular, is becoming more complex. The regrettable introduction into the British set-up of the transatlantic settlement has possibly resulted in cases being fought much harder than formerly. We must also realise and appreciate the effects of the European human rights legislation on Scots law. Although that has been a beneficial influence in many respects, in other respects there is a cost that must be borne. The first cost is the financial cost. It has already been highlighted that we will have to appoint approximately 30 full-time floating sheriffs. I have made an initial calculation of the cost of that particular exercise. Those 30 appointments, plus the appointment of four additional members to the senate of the College of Justice, as was outlined by Mr Gallie, is likely to cost us £3.5 million. That is a net figure, after the amount of payments that would not have to be made in respect of temporary sheriffs has been deducted. It has been a fairly painful exercise on the Parliament's budget so far today. However, budget and law must not be seen to clash. As Roseanna Cunningham said, we are very proud of our legal system in Scotland; it is undoubtedly the best in the world. We certainly do not want to do anything that would prejudice the standing of Scottish justice in any respect. Nevertheless, it is essential to point out that, at the same time, there are imperfections that could be addressed by examining the number of judges. There is no possible excuse for lengthy delays to civil actions that are brought before the Court of Session or the sheriff court. It must be recognised that, in criminal matters, a time bar exists on many statutory offences that are taken in summary complaint. I do not think that it is acceptable, Lord Advocate, that in many cases it takes many months, subsequent to the original appearance of a petition, for an indictment to be served. In the current justice system, many cases are dealt with under the 110-day rule. However, in certain jurisdictions there are lengthy delays in the service of an indictment—sometimes of eight or nine months. That must be addressed. It may be that there is a shortage of judges, or that the prosecution service is not being properly resourced. In time, that should be examined. Generally, we must accept that the situation is as it is, and that we will be required to lay out the necessary expenditure and adjust matters accordingly. However, some of the remarks that Pauline McNeill made are unacceptable to the Conservative party. We want the best possible persons on the High Court bench, irrespective of race, creed, colour or gender. If all the new appointees turned out to be women, and they were the best people for the job, there would be no complaint at all from the Conservative party.", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not think that anybody could reasonably take exception to what is being proposed today. Society in general is becoming much more litigious; we must accept that. Civil law, in particular, is becoming more complex. The regrettable introduction into the British set-up of the transatlantic settlement has possibly resulted in cases being fought much harder than formerly.

We must also realise and appreciate the effects of the European human rights legislation on Scots law. Although that has been a beneficial influence in many respects, in other respects there is a cost that must be borne. The first cost is the financial cost. It has already been highlighted that we will have to appoint approximately 30 full-time floating sheriffs. I have made an initial calculation of the cost of that particular exercise. Those 30 appointments, plus the appointment of four additional members to the senate of the College of Justice, as was outlined by Mr Gallie, is likely to cost us £3.5 million. That is a net figure, after the amount of payments that would not have to be made in respect of temporary sheriffs has been deducted. It has been a fairly painful exercise on the Parliament's budget so far today.

However, budget and law must not be seen to clash. As Roseanna Cunningham said, we are very proud of our legal system in Scotland; it is undoubtedly the best in the world. We certainly do not want to do anything that would prejudice the standing of Scottish justice in any respect. Nevertheless, it is essential to point out that, at the same time, there are imperfections that could be addressed by examining the number of judges. There is no possible excuse for lengthy delays to civil actions that are brought before the Court of Session or the sheriff court. It must be recognised that, in criminal matters, a time bar exists on many statutory offences that are taken in summary complaint.

I do not think that it is acceptable, Lord Advocate, that in many cases it takes many months, subsequent to the original appearance of a petition, for an indictment to be served. In the current justice system, many cases are dealt with under the 110-day rule. However, in certain jurisdictions there are lengthy delays in the service of an indictment—sometimes of eight or nine months. That must be addressed. It may be that there is a shortage of judges, or that the prosecution service is not being properly resourced. In time, that should be examined.

Generally, we must accept that the situation is as it is, and that we will be required to lay out the necessary expenditure and adjust matters accordingly. However, some of the remarks that Pauline McNeill made are unacceptable to the Conservative party. We want the best possible persons on the High Court bench, irrespective of race, creed, colour or gender. If all the new appointees turned out to be women, and they were the best people for the job, there would be no complaint at all from the Conservative party.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2234E7P20C711580", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Subordinate Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27060, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 536.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 536.0, "ID": 27060, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Aitken, Bill", "ID": 2234, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bill Aitken", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bill Aitken: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 556.0, "ContributionID": 711580, "EditedText": "I have absolutely no hesitation in agreeing that there are many very able women at the bar; nor have I any hesitation in saying that I would welcome more appointments from women at the bar. However, it is imperative that those who are appointed must be the best people for the job and must not be appointed on the basis of some of the politically correct thinking that is prevalent at the moment.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have absolutely no hesitation in agreeing that there are many very able women at the bar; nor have I any hesitation in saying that I would welcome more appointments from women at the bar. However, it is imperative that those who are appointed must be the best people for the job and must not be appointed on the basis of some of the politically correct thinking that is prevalent at the moment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1752E75P296C711581", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Subordinate Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27060, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 536.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 536.0, "ID": 27060, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jamieson, Cathy", "ID": 1752, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Cathy Jamieson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Cathy Jamieson (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 558.0, "ContributionID": 711581, "EditedText": "Does Bill Aitken accept that inequalities, particularly in relation to gender imbalance, have also been rife in the political system over the years and that it was only because action was taken to ensure that this Parliament had a decent representation of women that we achieved some success on that front?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does Bill Aitken accept that inequalities, particularly in relation to gender imbalance, have also been rife in the political system over the years and that it was only because action was taken to ensure that this Parliament had a decent representation of women that we achieved some success on that front?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1970E66P288C711586", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Subordinate Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27060, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 536.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 536.0, "ID": 27060, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNulty, Des", "ID": 1970, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Clydebank and Milngavie" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Des McNulty", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Des McNulty: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 570.0, "ContributionID": 711586, "EditedText": "I believe in a positive system of encouragement of women in all areas of public life. The law is an area in which, perhaps, women have not progressed as far as they should have.", "EditedTextHTML": "I believe in a positive system of encouragement of women in all areas of public life. The law is an area in which, perhaps, women have not progressed as far as they should have.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711600", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Subordinate Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27060, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 536.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 536.0, "ID": 27060, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 602.0, "ContributionID": 711600, "EditedText": "Members indicated agreement.", "EditedTextHTML": "Members indicated agreement.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711603", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Subordinate Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27060, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 536.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 536.0, "ID": 27060, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 607.0, "ContributionID": 711603, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C711591", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Subordinate Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27060, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 536.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 536.0, "ID": 27060, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell (South of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 583.0, "ContributionID": 711591, "EditedText": "It is an indication of how restrained Parliament has become that when members have had the opportunity for the past 40 minutes to murmur about Scottish judges, not a single murmur has been heard. That might be because of fear or reticence or because not enough members are here, but it testifies to the respect in which the judiciary is held in Scotland, not simply because of its actions, but because of its long and distinguished contribution to our society. The issues that we are discussing are not without their concerns, and I pay tribute to the speeches of Pauline McNeill and Des McNulty. There is strong public concern in Scotland that the system of judicial appointment is not transparent, democratic or fair and that it is not a system that produces—to some extent—a cross-section of Scottish society to sit in judgment. I am heartened by the remarks of the Minister for Justice this afternoon that the Executive will bring forward for consultation ideas on a new system of judicial appointments. I hope that when we have that debate in the chamber we can move Scotland forward into a more transparent and democratic era. There was not even any criticism this afternoon when we heard the astonishing figure that a fully rigged judge costs £140,000 a year. I suspect that if a fully rigged politician cost £140,000 a year, we would be in considerable trouble. Obviously, judges are worth the pittance that they receive and I suspect that the approval of that money will go through on the nod. Members may have noticed some behind-thescenes activity; I am glad to see the Minister for Parliament in his place. Strong concerns have been expressed in the past 24 hours that there are difficulties in getting the timetabling of debates in the chamber correct. All members of the Parliamentary Bureau should share those concerns. The clock shows that it is only 4.25 pm. To take us to 5 o'clock, the Lord Advocate and I would have to speak for 35 minutes—the Lord Advocate is, of course, quite capable of that, although I might not be. That is a compliment to the Lord Advocate's eloquence, as I am sure he will show when eventually he is worth £140,000 a year. The reality is that we do not have a debate that will take us to 5 o'clock. I am pleased to say that the Minister for Parliament will move a business motion that will move the business of the chamber on. The Parliamentary Bureau—I speak as a member of it—will have to reflect on this matter and ensure that the timetabling of all business meets the demands of the chamber. It was never in question that the order would be approved by the Parliament. There was never any question but that this would be a matter of consensus between the parties. We could have achieved this more promptly. I am happy to support the increase in the number of judges in Scotland, as is my party. We look forward to it and we look forward to the high reputation of the Scottish judiciary being maintained by the new members of the bench.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is an indication of how restrained Parliament has become that when members have had the opportunity for the past 40 minutes to murmur about Scottish judges, not a single murmur has been heard. That might be because of fear or reticence or because not enough members are here, but it testifies to the respect in which the judiciary is held in Scotland, not simply because of its actions, but because of its long and distinguished contribution to our society.

The issues that we are discussing are not without their concerns, and I pay tribute to the speeches of Pauline McNeill and Des McNulty. There is strong public concern in Scotland that the system of judicial appointment is not transparent, democratic or fair and that it is not a system that produces—to some extent—a cross-section of Scottish society to sit in judgment. I am heartened by the remarks of the Minister for Justice this afternoon that the Executive will bring forward for consultation ideas on a new system of judicial appointments. I hope that when we have that debate in the chamber we can move Scotland forward into a more transparent and democratic era.

There was not even any criticism this afternoon when we heard the astonishing figure that a fully rigged judge costs £140,000 a year. I suspect that if a fully rigged politician cost £140,000 a year, we would be in considerable trouble. Obviously, judges are worth the pittance that they receive and I suspect that the approval of that money will go through on the nod.

Members may have noticed some behind-the

scenes activity; I am glad to see the Minister for Parliament in his place. Strong concerns have been expressed in the past 24 hours that there are difficulties in getting the timetabling of debates in the chamber correct. All members of the Parliamentary Bureau should share those concerns. The clock shows that it is only 4.25 pm. To take us to 5 o'clock, the Lord Advocate and I would have to speak for 35 minutes—the Lord Advocate is, of course, quite capable of that, although I might not be. That is a compliment to the Lord Advocate's eloquence, as I am sure he will show when eventually he is worth £140,000 a year. The reality is that we do not have a debate that will take us to 5 o'clock. I am pleased to say that the Minister for Parliament will move a business motion that will move the business of the chamber on.

The Parliamentary Bureau—I speak as a member of it—will have to reflect on this matter and ensure that the timetabling of all business meets the demands of the chamber. It was never in question that the order would be approved by the Parliament. There was never any question but that this would be a matter of consensus between the parties. We could have achieved this more promptly.

I am happy to support the increase in the number of judges in Scotland, as is my party. We look forward to it and we look forward to the high reputation of the Scottish judiciary being maintained by the new members of the bench.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711594", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Subordinate Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27060, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 536.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 536.0, "ID": 27060, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Lord Advocate", "SpeakerName": "Andrew Hardie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Lord Advocate: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 590.0, "ContributionID": 711594, "EditedText": "I fully understand what Mr Gallie is saying, but the judgment will have to be studied carefully not only by me and by other ministers, but by the Lord President, to see what implications it has for the administration of justice in the supreme courts. It is possible that at some future date he will come back with further requests, but—particularly given the comments that have been made about the modest salaries that judges are being paid—it would be inappropriate for us as an Executive to ask the Parliament for more appointments than the Lord President thought were absolutely necessary. I was somewhat surprised to hear Mr Gallie raise the issue of the alleged downgrading of charges, because this must be the first occasion on which he has done so—", "EditedTextHTML": "I fully understand what Mr Gallie is saying, but the judgment will have to be studied carefully not only by me and by other ministers, but by the Lord President, to see what implications it has for the administration of justice in the supreme courts. It is possible that at some future date he will come back with further requests, but—particularly given the comments that have been made about the modest salaries that judges are being paid—it would be inappropriate for us as an Executive to ask the Parliament for more appointments than the Lord President thought were absolutely necessary.

I was somewhat surprised to hear Mr Gallie raise the issue of the alleged downgrading of charges, because this must be the first occasion on which he has done so—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C711595", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Subordinate Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27060, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 536.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 536.0, "ID": 27060, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 592.0, "ContributionID": 711595, "EditedText": "No, I have raised it before.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I have raised it before.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711610", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pardon for Executed Soldiers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27062, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 618.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 618.0, "ID": 27062, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 619.0, "ContributionID": 711610, "EditedText": "The next item of business is the members' debate on motion S1M-223, in the name of Dr Elaine Murray. Following Mr McCabe's remarks, and in view of the number of people who wish to speak in this debate, I would be minded to accept a motion now that the debate be extended to the normal time of", "EditedTextHTML": "The next item of business is the members' debate on motion S1M-223, in the name of Dr Elaine Murray. Following Mr McCabe's remarks, and in view of the number of people who wish to speak in this debate, I would be minded to accept a motion now that the debate be extended to the normal time of

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711596", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Subordinate Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27060, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 536.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 536.0, "ID": 27060, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Lord Advocate", "SpeakerName": "Andrew Hardie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Lord Advocate: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 594.0, "ContributionID": 711596, "EditedText": "That was supposed to be a joke. Laughter. What I can say is that the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service consider the reports that they receive and take a decision on the basis of the evidence that is available to them. Crown counsel and the procurator fiscal decide on the appropriate charges and the appropriate courts. There is no question of any downgrading of charges or of any downgrading from one court to another because of a lack of resources. As Jim Wallace said earlier, we intend to bring forward a consultation paper on appointments. I want to deal with the point that Des McNulty made. It will not simply be a case of our bringing forward the results of the consultation. Rather, the consultation paper will be issued and anyone who has an interest in the subject, including MSPs, the Justice and Home Affairs Committee and members of the public, will have an opportunity to make representations. After that, there will be an opportunity for the appropriate committee—and, if need be, the entire Parliament—to consider the outcome of the consultation process. A number of members—Roseanna Cunningham, Des McNulty, Maureen Macmillan, Cathy Jamieson, Pauline McNeill and Euan Robson—raised the issue of the gender imbalance in the present judiciary, which has only one lady member out of 27. When we appoint judges, our starting point is that only people who are properly qualified and have the requisite experience and expertise should be considered. I do not think that anyone would demur at that. However, because in recent years so many women have entered the profession, it may be that there are a number of women suitable for appointment, if they are interested. I want to take up Maureen Macmillan's point that women are not appointed to particular posts because men are responsible for making the appointments. Some may hold that view, but since I became Lord Advocate in 1997, five women have been appointed to the shrieval bench. At present there are only 13 woman sheriffs, but five of them were appointed by me, and appointed on merit. That indicates that it is possible for men to recommend the appointment of suitably qualified women. I will not shirk that duty. If there are suitably qualified women of ability and if they are the best people to be appointed, I will have no hesitation in making a recommendation. If the judiciary is to retain the confidence of the public, it must continue to be vigilant of the rights of the individual and it must continue to reflect and be aware of society as a whole. If it does not do that, it will lose the confidence of the public. One way of achieving a judiciary that reflects Scottish society is to secure appointments that do that. That involves taking into account appointments from ethnic minorities. Again, we must ensure that the appointees have the necessary qualifications and the necessary ability. I am anxious to encourage members of ethnic minorities to enter the law and to seek judicial appointments after they have served the requisite statutory period. No one would be happier than me if it were possible to appoint more women and members of ethnic minorities. No doubt we will have that debate after the consultation process has ended. Bill Aitken raised a point about the financial implications of today's debate. As Jim Wallace said, the cost of the Lockerbie trial is largely met from outwith the Scottish block, and the costs related to Paddington and the Cullen inquiry come entirely from outwith the Scottish block. Bill Aitken also referred to delays. As far as I am aware, Scotland has the strictest time limits in the world on prosecutions. It is a tribute to our system that people are brought to justice in criminal trials much more speedily than in any other country. Those in custody have to be brought before the court within 110 days. Only in a very few exceptional cases, through no fault of ours, does that period have to be extended. The time limit for people who are not in custody is a year. The point that Mr Aitken made was that, in some parts of Scotland, it is months before a trial is brought to fruition. However, given that Parliament, in its wisdom, decided that a year was a reasonable period, it is not unreasonable to have a period of a few months between the start of a petition and the start of a trial. I am sure that members will also appreciate that it is important to prioritise business so that those in custody are dealt with first. The consequence is that those who are not in custody tend to have to wait a bit longer. Euan Robson mentioned retired judges. The average age of the senior judiciary is 59, and the youngest judge is 43. When we are talking about natural wastage, we are talking about the retirement of existing judges when they achieve their retirement age or decide that they want to retire, or the retirement of the judges who have already retired. When they come up against the statutory period, they have to go. Rather ingeniously, Euan Robson introduced the closure of Duns sheriff court. I am not quite sure what that has to do with the increase in the number of senior judges, but it is the sheriff principal in the Borders who has responsibility for managing the business in his sheriffdom. He has initiated the consultation on court provision in the Borders and has made clear in his document that he has an open mind on the proposals contained in it. He will wish to consider representations received and it will be a little time before he puts any proposals to Scottish ministers, who have the final responsibility for approving any closures. It is inappropriate at this stage for me to make any detailed comment on the matter raised, but I can assure Parliament that there will be no court closures until ministers have had an opportunity to consider the overall position. I am sure that the Justice and Home Affairs Committee will wish to consider that at some point. In relation to the comments made by Lord James Douglas-Hamilton, all of us have our own memories of Lockerbie. I was not involved on the night in question, but as members may know, I was much involved in the fatal accident inquiry. Since becoming Lord Advocate, I have been greatly involved in the whole question of the Lockerbie investigation and have had many opportunities to meet the families of the victims. On the point raised about suspending temporary sheriffs for all new cases, it is fair to say that the question of the action to be taken following the decision this morning has been decided on the basis of prudence. The first thing that has been done is to take the advice of the court and ensure that temporary sheriffs do not continue to hear cases, lest those cases be prejudiced. The position in relation to new cases is in the same category. It would be unwise to encourage new cases to be called before temporary sheriffs, in case those cases were prejudiced. In relation to civil cases, it is always open to parties themselves to agree that they will be heard by a temporary sheriff. If parties agree, that may be an option which we would have to consider. It is too early to do that today. The emphasis must be on compliance with the European convention on human rights and ensuring that justice is done in all cases. The final point raised by Lord James Douglas- Hamilton was about the appeal against the judgment. As Jim Wallace said, leave to appeal was sought today, and was granted on the basis that this was an important constitutional issue. Having said that, it would be unwise and inappropriate for me to announce that I was intending to appeal until I have fully considered the implications of the judgment. I trust that members will accept that I should not make any further statement on that until the judgment has been fully considered and digested and a decision taken as to whether there is a proper ground for an appeal to the Privy Council. One final matter that I must deal with is the question raised by Mr Gallie on the use of sheriffs as temporary judges. The position in relation to temporary judges in the supreme courts is that one of them is a sheriff principal and all the others, except two, are permanent sheriffs. The Lord President will consider the implications of the judgment for the continued use of temporary judges. In any event, it may be that some of the sheriffs will be required to be recalled to the sheriff courts to deal with business. Those are all issues that must be addressed. As Jim Wallace said, contingency plans have been drawn up by the various sheriffs principal to ensure that the cases which deserve priority, such as those involving people in custody and those involving children or vulnerable witnesses, will be given it. I realise that everyone thinks that their own case is most important. Other business will be worked around those cases.", "EditedTextHTML": "That was supposed to be a joke. [Laughter.] What I can say is that the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service consider the reports that they receive and take a decision on the basis of the evidence that is available to them. Crown counsel and the procurator fiscal decide on the appropriate charges and the appropriate courts. There is no question of any downgrading of charges or of any downgrading from one court to another because of a lack of resources.

As Jim Wallace said earlier, we intend to bring forward a consultation paper on appointments. I want to deal with the point that Des McNulty made. It will not simply be a case of our bringing forward the results of the consultation. Rather, the consultation paper will be issued and anyone who has an interest in the subject, including MSPs, the Justice and Home Affairs Committee and members of the public, will have an opportunity to make representations. After that, there will be an

opportunity for the appropriate committee—and, if need be, the entire Parliament—to consider the outcome of the consultation process.

A number of members—Roseanna Cunningham, Des McNulty, Maureen Macmillan, Cathy Jamieson, Pauline McNeill and Euan Robson—raised the issue of the gender imbalance in the present judiciary, which has only one lady member out of 27. When we appoint judges, our starting point is that only people who are properly qualified and have the requisite experience and expertise should be considered. I do not think that anyone would demur at that. However, because in recent years so many women have entered the profession, it may be that there are a number of women suitable for appointment, if they are interested.

I want to take up Maureen Macmillan's point that women are not appointed to particular posts because men are responsible for making the appointments. Some may hold that view, but since I became Lord Advocate in 1997, five women have been appointed to the shrieval bench. At present there are only 13 woman sheriffs, but five of them were appointed by me, and appointed on merit. That indicates that it is possible for men to recommend the appointment of suitably qualified women.

I will not shirk that duty. If there are suitably qualified women of ability and if they are the best people to be appointed, I will have no hesitation in making a recommendation. If the judiciary is to retain the confidence of the public, it must continue to be vigilant of the rights of the individual and it must continue to reflect and be aware of society as a whole. If it does not do that, it will lose the confidence of the public.

One way of achieving a judiciary that reflects Scottish society is to secure appointments that do that. That involves taking into account appointments from ethnic minorities. Again, we must ensure that the appointees have the necessary qualifications and the necessary ability. I am anxious to encourage members of ethnic minorities to enter the law and to seek judicial appointments after they have served the requisite statutory period. No one would be happier than me if it were possible to appoint more women and members of ethnic minorities. No doubt we will have that debate after the consultation process has ended.

Bill Aitken raised a point about the financial implications of today's debate. As Jim Wallace said, the cost of the Lockerbie trial is largely met from outwith the Scottish block, and the costs related to Paddington and the Cullen inquiry come entirely from outwith the Scottish block.

Bill Aitken also referred to delays. As far as I am aware, Scotland has the strictest time limits in the world on prosecutions. It is a tribute to our system that people are brought to justice in criminal trials much more speedily than in any other country. Those in custody have to be brought before the court within 110 days. Only in a very few exceptional cases, through no fault of ours, does that period have to be extended.

The time limit for people who are not in custody is a year. The point that Mr Aitken made was that, in some parts of Scotland, it is months before a trial is brought to fruition. However, given that Parliament, in its wisdom, decided that a year was a reasonable period, it is not unreasonable to have a period of a few months between the start of a petition and the start of a trial. I am sure that members will also appreciate that it is important to prioritise business so that those in custody are dealt with first. The consequence is that those who are not in custody tend to have to wait a bit longer.

Euan Robson mentioned retired judges. The average age of the senior judiciary is 59, and the youngest judge is 43. When we are talking about natural wastage, we are talking about the retirement of existing judges when they achieve their retirement age or decide that they want to retire, or the retirement of the judges who have already retired. When they come up against the statutory period, they have to go.

Rather ingeniously, Euan Robson introduced the closure of Duns sheriff court. I am not quite sure what that has to do with the increase in the number of senior judges, but it is the sheriff principal in the Borders who has responsibility for managing the business in his sheriffdom. He has initiated the consultation on court provision in the Borders and has made clear in his document that he has an open mind on the proposals contained in it. He will wish to consider representations received and it will be a little time before he puts any proposals to Scottish ministers, who have the final responsibility for approving any closures.

It is inappropriate at this stage for me to make any detailed comment on the matter raised, but I can assure Parliament that there will be no court closures until ministers have had an opportunity to consider the overall position. I am sure that the Justice and Home Affairs Committee will wish to consider that at some point.

In relation to the comments made by Lord James Douglas-Hamilton, all of us have our own memories of Lockerbie. I was not involved on the night in question, but as members may know, I was much involved in the fatal accident inquiry. Since becoming Lord Advocate, I have been greatly involved in the whole question of the Lockerbie investigation and have had many opportunities to meet the families of the victims.

On the point raised about suspending temporary sheriffs for all new cases, it is fair to say that the question of the action to be taken following the decision this morning has been decided on the basis of prudence. The first thing that has been done is to take the advice of the court and ensure that temporary sheriffs do not continue to hear cases, lest those cases be prejudiced. The position in relation to new cases is in the same category. It would be unwise to encourage new cases to be called before temporary sheriffs, in case those cases were prejudiced. In relation to civil cases, it is always open to parties themselves to agree that they will be heard by a temporary sheriff. If parties agree, that may be an option which we would have to consider. It is too early to do that today. The emphasis must be on compliance with the European convention on human rights and ensuring that justice is done in all cases.

The final point raised by Lord James Douglas- Hamilton was about the appeal against the judgment. As Jim Wallace said, leave to appeal was sought today, and was granted on the basis that this was an important constitutional issue. Having said that, it would be unwise and inappropriate for me to announce that I was intending to appeal until I have fully considered the implications of the judgment. I trust that members will accept that I should not make any further statement on that until the judgment has been fully considered and digested and a decision taken as to whether there is a proper ground for an appeal to the Privy Council.

One final matter that I must deal with is the question raised by Mr Gallie on the use of sheriffs as temporary judges. The position in relation to temporary judges in the supreme courts is that one of them is a sheriff principal and all the others, except two, are permanent sheriffs. The Lord President will consider the implications of the judgment for the continued use of temporary judges. In any event, it may be that some of the sheriffs will be required to be recalled to the sheriff courts to deal with business. Those are all issues that must be addressed.

As Jim Wallace said, contingency plans have been drawn up by the various sheriffs principal to ensure that the cases which deserve priority, such as those involving people in custody and those involving children or vulnerable witnesses, will be given it. I realise that everyone thinks that their own case is most important. Other business will be worked around those cases.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711617", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pardon for Executed Soldiers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27062, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 618.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 618.0, "ID": 27062, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 631.0, "ContributionID": 711617, "EditedText": "We will have the usual four-minute limit on speeches, but if I am to have any hope of calling all those members who have asked to speak, members should be aiming for two minutes.", "EditedTextHTML": "We will have the usual four-minute limit on speeches, but if I am to have any hope of calling all those members who have asked to speak, members should be aiming for two minutes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1821E295P538C711620", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pardon for Executed Soldiers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27062, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 618.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 618.0, "ID": 27062, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Mrs Margaret", "ID": 1821, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Moray" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Margaret Ewing (Moray) (SNP) rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 639.0, "ContributionID": 711620, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1916E38P70C711621", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pardon for Executed Soldiers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27062, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 618.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 618.0, "ID": 27062, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Ben", "ID": 1916, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ben Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ben Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 641.0, "ContributionID": 711621, "EditedText": "I am not taking any interventions—this issue is not for banter. The tragedy of the first world war, the Boer war and the conflicts of the centuries before is that today's procedures for taking evidence did not exist. Is Dr Murray saying that offences such as desertion or quitting one's post are not as serious today? They are still incredibly serious. Indeed, in an operational environment, a soldier found sleeping on sentry duty will go to jail for 28 days. His duty—to guard his comrades—is as serious as it ever was. However, the punishment that those men receive comes from today's different values and standards. It is dangerous to go back 80 years and say that by the standards of the time the punishment was too severe. It was, as flogging was too severe under Nelson in the Napoleonic era, but it is not for us to delve into the past and judge the punishments decided on by people at that time. Dr Murray should realise that we must consider the first world war as a whole. I believe that we dishonour everyone if we pick and choose the situations in which we forgive or forget or brand some people perpetrators and others victims. The first world war was a tragedy for Scotland. I doubt that there is anyone in the chamber or in the public galleries who is not touched by the loss of a relation or a member of their direct family. I would be happy for the names of some—or all—of the 307 men to be put on war memorials and for their loss to be remembered for the tragedy that it was. However, I do not believe that it is for us to judge people for acting on the medical knowledge that was available at the time and not on the knowledge of how to treat shell-shock that we have today. Are we to say that to chop off someone's leg to prevent gangrene was wrong medical practice before antibiotics? The medical treatments were not understood then. Today, they are. While we register the regret and the horrors of the first world war, I ask the chamber to remember that that is history. Let us learn from that history and never again repeat the tragedy that caused those 307 men to be executed, for right or for wrong.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am not taking any interventions—this issue is not for banter.

The tragedy of the first world war, the Boer war and the conflicts of the centuries before is that today's procedures for taking evidence did not exist.

Is Dr Murray saying that offences such as desertion or quitting one's post are not as serious today? They are still incredibly serious. Indeed, in an operational environment, a soldier found sleeping on sentry duty will go to jail for 28 days. His duty—to guard his comrades—is as serious as it ever was. However, the punishment that those men receive comes from today's different values and standards.

It is dangerous to go back 80 years and say that by the standards of the time the punishment was too severe. It was, as flogging was too severe under Nelson in the Napoleonic era, but it is not for us to delve into the past and judge the punishments decided on by people at that time. Dr Murray should realise that we must consider the first world war as a whole. I believe that we dishonour everyone if we pick and choose the situations in which we forgive or forget or brand some people perpetrators and others victims.

The first world war was a tragedy for Scotland. I doubt that there is anyone in the chamber or in the public galleries who is not touched by the loss of a relation or a member of their direct family. I would be happy for the names of some—or all—of the 307 men to be put on war memorials and for their loss to be remembered for the tragedy that it was. However, I do not believe that it is for us to judge people for acting on the medical knowledge that was available at the time and not on the knowledge of how to treat shell-shock that we have today. Are we to say that to chop off someone's leg to prevent gangrene was wrong medical practice before antibiotics? The medical treatments were not understood then. Today, they are.

While we register the regret and the horrors of the first world war, I ask the chamber to remember that that is history. Let us learn from that history and never again repeat the tragedy that caused those 307 men to be executed, for right or for wrong.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1854E38P164C711623", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pardon for Executed Soldiers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27062, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 618.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 618.0, "ID": 27062, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Godman, Trish", "ID": 1854, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Renfrewshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Trish Godman", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Trish Godman (West Renfrewshire) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 647.0, "ContributionID": 711623, "EditedText": "I welcome Elaine Murray's motion, which I hope has the unanimous support of the chamber. Matters relating to the armed forces are reserved to Westminster. Nevertheless, it is fitting that this Parliament should speak out on behalf of the Scottish soldiers who were executed following courts martial conducted by officers who never gave the accused a fair hearing. Of the soldiers executed for so-called cowardice—among them English, Canadian, Irish and, as Dorothy-Grace Elder said, Chinese—43 were Scots. Their convictions should be dismissed and the soldiers given a posthumous pardon. In 1983, an English judge, Anthony Babington, was given access to the transcripts of the courts martial. He stated that military procedures had seriously prejudiced the possibility of fair trials, and, following conviction, the accused had no hope of being treated with sympathy. He criticised the complete absence of informed medical opinion, which worsened the prospects of justice being done. Those soldiers, 26 of whom were under 21 years of age when they were executed, were treated with contempt and were denied a fair hearing. Some of the Scottish soldiers were not represented at the courts martial. Those who were there had a \"soldier friend\", often an officer untrained and unskilled in legal matters and advocacy. To those who say that those men were cowards who deserted their comrades in their hour of need, let me point out that some of the soldiers who were executed had a distinguished service record. One young Canadian who was executed had been given the medal of bravery for valour in the field. Andrew Mackinlay, MP for Thurrock, has campaigned long and hard for the families of the soldiers. He said in a recent House of Commons debate that the men were denied the right of justice and were not given an opportunity to prepare a defence. In many cases, they did not have proper advocates. None was given the opportunity to collect evidence, particularly medical evidence, in support of their defence. Each and every one of them was denied an appeal against the death sentence. That is surely—then and now—contrary to the rules of natural justice. Pardons are long overdue, and I believe that that is the view of the overwhelming majority of the people of the United Kingdom. If we watch the television programmes about these matters, we see the Scottish veterans who fought alongside the young men who were killed. If they give an opinion, they agree that their young comrades should not have been executed and that they deserve to be pardoned. I hope that this debate will show the families that we in this Scottish Parliament firmly support that position. The Prime Minister and the Secretary of State for Defence should, I believe, show humility and compassion on this important issue. The families of the soldiers deserve no less from us all.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome Elaine Murray's motion, which I hope has the unanimous support of the chamber.

Matters relating to the armed forces are reserved to Westminster. Nevertheless, it is fitting that this Parliament should speak out on behalf of the Scottish soldiers who were executed following courts martial conducted by officers who never gave the accused a fair hearing. Of the soldiers executed for so-called cowardice—among them English, Canadian, Irish and, as Dorothy-Grace Elder said, Chinese—43 were Scots. Their convictions should be dismissed and the soldiers given a posthumous pardon.

In 1983, an English judge, Anthony Babington, was given access to the transcripts of the courts martial. He stated that military procedures had seriously prejudiced the possibility of fair trials, and, following conviction, the accused had no hope of being treated with sympathy. He criticised the complete absence of informed medical opinion, which worsened the prospects of justice being done. Those soldiers, 26 of whom were under 21 years of age when they were executed, were treated with contempt and were denied a fair hearing.

Some of the Scottish soldiers were not represented at the courts martial. Those who were there had a \"soldier friend\", often an officer untrained and unskilled in legal matters and advocacy. To those who say that those men were cowards who deserted their comrades in their hour of need, let me point out that some of the soldiers who were executed had a distinguished service record. One young Canadian who was executed had been given the medal of bravery for valour in the field.

Andrew Mackinlay, MP for Thurrock, has campaigned long and hard for the families of the soldiers. He said in a recent House of Commons debate that the men were denied the right of justice and were not given an opportunity to prepare a defence. In many cases, they did not have proper advocates. None was given the opportunity to collect evidence, particularly medical evidence, in support of their defence. Each and every one of them was denied an appeal against the death sentence. That is surely—then and now—contrary to the rules of natural justice. Pardons are long overdue, and I believe that that is the view of the overwhelming majority of the people of the United Kingdom.

If we watch the television programmes about these matters, we see the Scottish veterans who fought alongside the young men who were killed. If they give an opinion, they agree that their young comrades should not have been executed and that they deserve to be pardoned. I hope that this debate will show the families that we in this Scottish Parliament firmly support that position. The Prime Minister and the Secretary of State for Defence should, I believe, show humility and compassion on this important issue. The families of the soldiers deserve no less from us all.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.513892+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C711418", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27033, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 129.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 129.0, "ID": 27033, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 219.0, "ContributionID": 711418, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:28:33.8639665+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C711420", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27033, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 129.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 129.0, "ID": 27033, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 223.0, "ContributionID": 711420, "EditedText": "The minister has made another clear distinction, which should be recognised in Parliament. Ministers see themselves as responsible and accountable for any risks identified in the vetting process. If, after blue status is given, an incident happens that is beyond the vetting processes of organisations acting on behalf of ministers, ministers will not accept any responsibility for such events.", "EditedTextHTML": "The minister has made another clear distinction, which should be recognised in Parliament. Ministers see themselves as responsible and accountable for any risks identified in the vetting process. If, after blue status is given, an incident happens that is beyond the vetting processes of organisations acting on behalf of ministers, ministers will not accept any responsibility for such events.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:28:33.8639665+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1783E59P270C711454", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27036, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 265.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27037, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 266.0, "QuestionHeading": "Domestic Violence Service Development Fund", "QuestionHeadingID": 27039, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 274.0, "DisplayOrder": 274.0, "ID": 27039, "ParentID": 27037 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Baillie, Jackie", "ID": 1783, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumbarton" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Jackie Baillie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Communities (Jackie Baillie): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 277.0, "ContributionID": 711454, "EditedText": "The distribution of expenditure from thedomestic abuse service development fund will be determined by the success of individual local authorities in bidding for grants. Full bidding guidance will be developed and circulated very shortly.", "EditedTextHTML": "The distribution of expenditure from the

domestic abuse service development fund will be determined by the success of individual local authorities in bidding for grants. Full bidding guidance will be developed and circulated very shortly.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:28:33.8639665+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C711351", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27031, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27031, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 66.0, "ContributionID": 711351, "EditedText": "I reiterate my thanks to the minister for his statement and for the information that he has given to members in his answers to questions. The minister made an interesting remark that part of the preparations for the millennium had resulted from co-operation and effective communication between the Scottish Executive and the Scotland Office. Bearing in mind the relations between those organisations during the summer, I hope that the co-operation has been more productive than the turf wars that we have read about in the newspapers. The minister ended his speech on a happy note and with an encouraging tone, saying that we should remember the millennium not for disruption but for successful millennium celebrations. I am almost tempted to wish the minister a happy new year. He confirmed that he will be spending hogmanay at the Scottish information liaison centre, or at least be in contact with it. I suppose that that is the polite title for the Government's millennium bunker. The minister said that there was to be a dry exercise for the media on 17 December. I have rarely attended dry exercises with the Scottish media, so I am intrigued to know what will be different about 17 December and the ensuing period, and whether it will be drier or wetter. I am concerned for the minister with regard to his presence at the centre on hogmanay. It might be appropriate that he is not left to go to the ministerial bunker alone. He should be given ministerial company when he is there. He might find himself sharing the bunker with one of his colleagues who has been disrespectfully named Captain Mainwaring by one of the parliamentary diarists. If all the minister's preparations have been appropriate, I hope that at no stage does he have to perform the role of Lance Corporal Jones and rush around shouting, \"Don't panic, don't panic.\" I hope that no one is there to perform the role of Private Frazer, telling the assembled company, \"We're all doomed,\" although I can think of at least one prominent minister who could perform that task.", "EditedTextHTML": "I reiterate my thanks to the minister for his statement and for the information that he has given to members in his answers to questions.

The minister made an interesting remark that part of the preparations for the millennium had resulted from co-operation and effective communication between the Scottish Executive and the Scotland Office. Bearing in mind the relations between those organisations during the summer, I hope that the co-operation has been more productive than the turf wars that we have read about in the newspapers.

The minister ended his speech on a happy note and with an encouraging tone, saying that we should remember the millennium not for disruption but for successful millennium celebrations. I am almost tempted to wish the minister a happy new year. He confirmed that he will be spending hogmanay at the Scottish information liaison

centre, or at least be in contact with it. I suppose that that is the polite title for the Government's millennium bunker.

The minister said that there was to be a dry exercise for the media on 17 December. I have rarely attended dry exercises with the Scottish media, so I am intrigued to know what will be different about 17 December and the ensuing period, and whether it will be drier or wetter.

I am concerned for the minister with regard to his presence at the centre on hogmanay. It might be appropriate that he is not left to go to the ministerial bunker alone. He should be given ministerial company when he is there. He might find himself sharing the bunker with one of his colleagues who has been disrespectfully named Captain Mainwaring by one of the parliamentary diarists. If all the minister's preparations have been appropriate, I hope that at no stage does he have to perform the role of Lance Corporal Jones and rush around shouting, \"Don't panic, don't panic.\" I hope that no one is there to perform the role of Private Frazer, telling the assembled company, \"We're all doomed,\" although I can think of at least one prominent minister who could perform that task.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:26:39.873439+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C711353", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27031, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27031, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 70.0, "ContributionID": 711353, "EditedText": "I will not name him because it might help his career. As each day goes by, I am surprised continually by the wide remit of the Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning. The inclusion of preparations for 2000 and the eradication of the millennium bug take that remit a stage further, but raise the issue of how cohesive is the breakdown of ministerial tasks. The minister is responsible for dealing with the millennium bug, but he is not responsible for the development of the digital Scotland strategy on behalf of the Scottish Executive. In a week's time there will be a debate on the modernisation of the Scottish economy, followed by a debate on digital Scotland. If there were a cohesive allocation of responsibilities in the Executive, it would be logical for the minister to be responsible for the preparations for digital Scotland, given that he is responsible for year 2000 compliance. I hope that in the summing-up we are told why the demarcation of responsibilities has not been done in that way. On a number of occasions today we have expressed our concern at the lack of cohesion in the decision-making process of the Executive and at the lack of clarity of the direction given to key initiatives. The Executive is putting a great deal of energy into a multiplicity of technology initiatives, but there is huge concern in the information technology community in Scotland that the Government's work has proliferated. Fiona McLeod has raised that point in previous debates, and I am sure that she will raise it today, because it is important that people in Scotland with considerable expertise in information technology are confident that the Government has a clear sense of direction in that important policy area. Let me be clear about the purpose of the debate and the approach that my colleagues will take to it. It is in no one's interest—despite my flippancy—to scaremonger or to try to imagine the unimaginable and suggest that anything might be likely to happen or might be in danger of happening. There must be recognition of the colossal task that has been undertaken in the public and private sectors to ensure that the disruption that might have happened is minimised. However, we must recognise that there are concerns in our community about any dangers to which our public services and facilities might be exposed because of the year 2000 issue. Our purpose is to pose some searching questions to the Executive, to inform the public about the approach that has been taken and to test the robustness of the assurances given by ministers. One issue, which put the first note of concern in my mind, is the way in which the minister handled the points raised by Miss Goldie and Fiona McLeod on the sale of tickets at Glasgow City Council for the Scotland v England match on Saturday. There was a big problem with the telephone system, and Glasgow City Council's business continuity plan was not able to cope with a restoration of the service after the disruption. That has happened within the past fortnight. It is only 50 days until the millennium, when there might be problems with the telephone network. The minister has told us that everything is okay and that business continuity plans are in place. However, we have that clear example of where the business continuity plan was in place and failed. It failed not just in Glasgow City Council, but in other parts of Scotland. This Parliament was pretty much incommunicado for a considerable period on the day of the ticket sale. Anyone who saw the interviews given by the organisers at the Scottish Football Association ticket office, when they expressed great confidence in the telephone system shortly before the tickets went on sale, would have to ask genuine questions about the millennium compliance of Glasgow City Council, as it was not able to cope with that pressure on the telephone system. That is a serious issue, which has not been dealt with by the points that the minister made in response. The Executive and the Government in Westminster have produced a range of interim reports that cover the range of services directly under the control of the Government. That assessment raises issues to which I will return in a moment. First, I will raise a point about the scope of the Government's work. The Government community is now diverse, as it encompasses a plethora of organisations that deliver public services, which are increasingly remote from what would traditionally have been described as ministerial accountability. Those organisations deliver key public services, which the public expect will continue to be delivered. We need to know how comprehensive the investigation has been. The minister opened his statement by referring to the Prime Minister, who \"accepted that, in practice as well as in theory, the buck stops with ministers to oversee the action being taken across the UK infrastructure by a range of bodies in the private and public sectors.\" That highlights the broad canvas that the Government must cover. Having questioned the minister on that point, I was not reassured that the Government had taken the comprehensive responsibility that that statement by the Prime Minister implies.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will not name him because it might help his career.

As each day goes by, I am surprised continually by the wide remit of the Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning. The inclusion of preparations for 2000 and the eradication of the millennium bug take that remit a stage further, but raise the issue of how cohesive is the breakdown of ministerial tasks.

The minister is responsible for dealing with the millennium bug, but he is not responsible for the development of the digital Scotland strategy on behalf of the Scottish Executive. In a week's time there will be a debate on the modernisation of the Scottish economy, followed by a debate on digital Scotland. If there were a cohesive allocation of responsibilities in the Executive, it would be logical for the minister to be responsible for the preparations for digital Scotland, given that he is responsible for year 2000 compliance. I hope that in the summing-up we are told why the demarcation of responsibilities has not been done in that way.

On a number of occasions today we have expressed our concern at the lack of cohesion in the decision-making process of the Executive and at the lack of clarity of the direction given to key initiatives. The Executive is putting a great deal of energy into a multiplicity of technology initiatives, but there is huge concern in the information technology community in Scotland that the

Government's work has proliferated. Fiona McLeod has raised that point in previous debates, and I am sure that she will raise it today, because it is important that people in Scotland with considerable expertise in information technology are confident that the Government has a clear sense of direction in that important policy area.

Let me be clear about the purpose of the debate and the approach that my colleagues will take to it. It is in no one's interest—despite my flippancy—to scaremonger or to try to imagine the unimaginable and suggest that anything might be likely to happen or might be in danger of happening. There must be recognition of the colossal task that has been undertaken in the public and private sectors to ensure that the disruption that might have happened is minimised. However, we must recognise that there are concerns in our community about any dangers to which our public services and facilities might be exposed because of the year 2000 issue. Our purpose is to pose some searching questions to the Executive, to inform the public about the approach that has been taken and to test the robustness of the assurances given by ministers.

One issue, which put the first note of concern in my mind, is the way in which the minister handled the points raised by Miss Goldie and Fiona McLeod on the sale of tickets at Glasgow City Council for the Scotland v England match on Saturday. There was a big problem with the telephone system, and Glasgow City Council's business continuity plan was not able to cope with a restoration of the service after the disruption.

That has happened within the past fortnight. It is only 50 days until the millennium, when there might be problems with the telephone network. The minister has told us that everything is okay and that business continuity plans are in place. However, we have that clear example of where the business continuity plan was in place and failed. It failed not just in Glasgow City Council, but in other parts of Scotland. This Parliament was pretty much incommunicado for a considerable period on the day of the ticket sale.

Anyone who saw the interviews given by the organisers at the Scottish Football Association ticket office, when they expressed great confidence in the telephone system shortly before the tickets went on sale, would have to ask genuine questions about the millennium compliance of Glasgow City Council, as it was not able to cope with that pressure on the telephone system. That is a serious issue, which has not been dealt with by the points that the minister made in response.

The Executive and the Government in Westminster have produced a range of interim reports that cover the range of services directly

under the control of the Government. That assessment raises issues to which I will return in a moment.

First, I will raise a point about the scope of the Government's work. The Government community is now diverse, as it encompasses a plethora of organisations that deliver public services, which are increasingly remote from what would traditionally have been described as ministerial accountability. Those organisations deliver key public services, which the public expect will continue to be delivered. We need to know how comprehensive the investigation has been.

The minister opened his statement by referring to the Prime Minister, who

\"accepted that, in practice as well as in theory, the buck stops with ministers to oversee the action being taken across the UK infrastructure by a range of bodies in the private and public sectors.\"

That highlights the broad canvas that the Government must cover. Having questioned the minister on that point, I was not reassured that the Government had taken the comprehensive responsibility that that statement by the Prime Minister implies.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:26:39.873439+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1857E136P222C711577", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Subordinate Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27060, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 536.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 536.0, "ID": 27060, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeill, Pauline", "ID": 1857, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Kelvin" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Pauline McNeill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Pauline McNeill (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 549.0, "ContributionID": 711577, "EditedText": "This is an important and historic moment for the Scottish Parliament, although the number of members in the chamber might not suggest that. Today we will make a decision on the Maximum Number of Judges (Scotland) Order 1999, acting on the Lord President's request that there should be an increase in the number of judges. On 26 August I asked the Minister for Justice how the Executive would cope with the work load of the four High Court judges who will preside over the Lockerbie trial. I was, therefore, pleased that Mr Wallace replied that the aim was to make sufficient new appointments to cover that. Since then, the tragic Paddington rail disaster has occurred and the consequent public inquiry is to be presided over by Lord Cullen. The expertise of our High Court judges has been called on, leaving Scotland five judges short. I am delighted to see this order before us, however, for wider reasons than those that I have already mentioned. We are presented with an ideal opportunity to consider the make-up of our judiciary, the educational backgrounds of its members and the system of appointment. We can—dare I say it?—also consider their removal, should that need arise. Through increasing the number of judges, I hope that we can at last begin to redress the gender, class and race discrepancies that undoubtedly exist. Our understanding must be clear that if we affirm this order, the First Minister will be called upon to exercise his statutory role thereafter. The draft order in council that is before us seeks to amend the Court of Session Act 1988 to increase from 27 to 32 the number of judges on the Scottish bench. It is crucial that we note that those will be new appointments. It must be said that, to many ordinary people, the judiciary is a complete mystery and, in fairness, many lawyers and legal practitioners will say the same. The common image of a High Court judge is of a man in a rather odd wig, who needs to ask a clerk to explain who the Beatles were. Having said that, I would like to put on record that the Scottish judiciary is highly regarded throughout the British and the European legal establishments. We know that that is why Lord Cullen has been chosen to oversee the Paddington rail inquiry, and why the youthful 40-something Lord Reed can, on occasion, be found at the European Court of Human Rights. It is also to Lord McCluskey's credit that he showed last week how difficult it is to make decisions about people's lives, when he painfully sentenced a 16-year-old woman to life imprisonment. The process of appointing High Court judges in Scotland is as clear as the white smoke that comes after the appointment of a new pope. Most lawyers will tell you that they have no idea how judges are appointed and less idea how to remove them. Several constitutional lawyers have argued that it is virtually impossible to remove them. To my knowledge, no High Court judge has ever been removed. Given that they operate under absolute privilege in court and that they hold enormous power in society, we must examine that anomaly. It cannot be right that, at the end of the 20th century, we cannot easily see what goes on at the top end of our criminal justice system. No other section of Scottish society is so shrouded in mystery. The rules of employment of judges should be completely clear to all of us. All in this chamber believe that our justice system should be fair and transparent, so we should also take the view that such principles should apply to the highest judges in our land. Scottish Labour believes that the system must be modernised and that we must go further than ever in doing so. Of 27 High Court judges, one is a woman and 12 went to the University of Oxford. There are no black or ethnic minority judges. To be blunt, the Scottish bench contains too many upper-class white men, and no matter how wonderfully talented they might be, that situation is not good enough and there has been no serious attempt to redress that imbalance. Scottish Labour believes that we need more women, in particular, in the judiciary. There has been an influx of talented, qualified women at the Scottish bar, a place where judges usually begin their careers. There are also women and men from a wider range of backgrounds, schools and universities at the bar. We want a competent bench of judges that is more reflective of the Scotland in which we live today, not some relic of the past. The appointment of five more judges means that the changing image of the judiciary is within our grasp. I believe that there is a strong will to act. This debate is of major significance to the Scottish people, as we are attempting to change an institution that is at the heart of justice in our society. We should all remember that any of us, for any reason, could find ourselves explaining our innocence in front of the courts. We should all care deeply about the way in which we hand out power. Judges decide the fates of those who are charged, and the Scottish people need to believe in the fairness and integrity of the justice system under which we all live. It must stand up to scrutiny. Let us pass this order today, without dissent, and we can look forward to the day when the First Minister is able to announce the appointment of more women to the Scottish bench.", "EditedTextHTML": "This is an important and historic moment for the Scottish Parliament, although the number of members in the chamber might not suggest that.

Today we will make a decision on the Maximum Number of Judges (Scotland) Order 1999, acting on the Lord President's request that there should be an increase in the number of judges.

On 26 August I asked the Minister for Justice how the Executive would cope with the work load of the four High Court judges who will preside over the Lockerbie trial. I was, therefore, pleased that Mr Wallace replied that the aim was to make sufficient new appointments to cover that. Since then, the tragic Paddington rail disaster has occurred and the consequent public inquiry is to be presided over by Lord Cullen. The expertise of our High Court judges has been called on, leaving Scotland five judges short.

I am delighted to see this order before us, however, for wider reasons than those that I have already mentioned. We are presented with an ideal opportunity to consider the make-up of our judiciary, the educational backgrounds of its members and the system of appointment. We can—dare I say it?—also consider their removal, should that need arise. Through increasing the number of judges, I hope that we can at last begin to redress the gender, class and race discrepancies that undoubtedly exist.

Our understanding must be clear that if we affirm this order, the First Minister will be called upon to exercise his statutory role thereafter. The draft order in council that is before us seeks to amend the Court of Session Act 1988 to increase from 27 to 32 the number of judges on the Scottish bench. It is crucial that we note that those will be new appointments.

It must be said that, to many ordinary people, the judiciary is a complete mystery and, in fairness, many lawyers and legal practitioners will say the same. The common image of a High Court judge is of a man in a rather odd wig, who needs to ask a clerk to explain who the Beatles were. Having said that, I would like to put on record that the Scottish judiciary is highly regarded throughout the British and the European legal establishments. We know that that is why Lord Cullen has been chosen to oversee the Paddington rail inquiry, and why the youthful 40-something Lord Reed can, on occasion, be found at the European Court of Human Rights. It is also to Lord McCluskey's credit that he showed last week how difficult it is to make decisions about people's lives, when he painfully sentenced a 16-year-old woman to life imprisonment.

The process of appointing High Court judges in Scotland is as clear as the white smoke that comes after the appointment of a new pope. Most lawyers will tell you that they have no idea how judges are appointed and less idea how to remove them. Several constitutional lawyers have argued that it is virtually impossible to remove them. To my knowledge, no High Court judge has ever been removed. Given that they operate under absolute privilege in court and that they hold enormous power in society, we must examine that anomaly.

It cannot be right that, at the end of the 20th century, we cannot easily see what goes on at the top end of our criminal justice system. No other section of Scottish society is so shrouded in mystery. The rules of employment of judges should be completely clear to all of us.

All in this chamber believe that our justice system should be fair and transparent, so we should also take the view that such principles should apply to the highest judges in our land. Scottish Labour believes that the system must be modernised and that we must go further than ever in doing so.

Of 27 High Court judges, one is a woman and 12 went to the University of Oxford. There are no

black or ethnic minority judges. To be blunt, the Scottish bench contains too many upper-class white men, and no matter how wonderfully talented they might be, that situation is not good enough and there has been no serious attempt to redress that imbalance.

Scottish Labour believes that we need more women, in particular, in the judiciary. There has been an influx of talented, qualified women at the Scottish bar, a place where judges usually begin their careers. There are also women and men from a wider range of backgrounds, schools and universities at the bar. We want a competent bench of judges that is more reflective of the Scotland in which we live today, not some relic of the past. The appointment of five more judges means that the changing image of the judiciary is within our grasp. I believe that there is a strong will to act.

This debate is of major significance to the Scottish people, as we are attempting to change an institution that is at the heart of justice in our society. We should all remember that any of us, for any reason, could find ourselves explaining our innocence in front of the courts. We should all care deeply about the way in which we hand out power. Judges decide the fates of those who are charged, and the Scottish people need to believe in the fairness and integrity of the justice system under which we all live. It must stand up to scrutiny. Let us pass this order today, without dissent, and we can look forward to the day when the First Minister is able to announce the appointment of more women to the Scottish bench.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:31:43.4808602+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1857E136P222C711579", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Subordinate Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27060, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 536.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 536.0, "ID": 27060, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeill, Pauline", "ID": 1857, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Kelvin" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Pauline McNeill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Pauline McNeill: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 554.0, "ContributionID": 711579, "EditedText": "I am disappointed, as I did not think that my comments were unacceptable. Does not Mr Aitken think that there must be more talent at the Scottish bar, more women who are capable of being judges in Scotland? It cannot be true that there is only one woman who is capable of doing the job. We have a responsibility to invite women to take part in our judiciary.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am disappointed, as I did not think that my comments were unacceptable. Does not Mr Aitken think that there must be more talent at the Scottish bar, more women who are capable of being judges in Scotland? It cannot be true that there is only one woman who is capable of doing the job. We have a responsibility to invite women to take part in our judiciary.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:31:43.4808602+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711321", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27031, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27031, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 4.0, "ContributionID": 711321, "EditedText": "The first item of business is the statement and debate on the millennium date change problem and a report on the readiness of the Scottish infrastructure. It will be a two-stage process: after the minister's statement, which should not be interrupted, there will be a short period for questions for clarification and then we will move on to the debate. I remind members that the debate will be interrupted at 11 o'clock to allow the Parliament to observe the national two minutes' silence.", "EditedTextHTML": "The first item of business is the statement and debate on the millennium date change problem and a report on the readiness of the Scottish infrastructure. It will be a two-stage process: after the minister's statement, which should not be interrupted, there will be a short period for questions for clarification and then we will move on to the debate.

I remind members that the debate will be interrupted at 11 o'clock to allow the Parliament to observe the national two minutes' silence.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C711331", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27031, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27031, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 25.0, "ContributionID": 711331, "EditedText": "I am happy to consider inviting MSPs. I do not know whether we will be able to accommodate both MSPs and the media on the same day, but I support the idea of MSPs attending. I shall discuss the matter of involving interested MSPs. It would be useful for all of us to see the physical context in which SILC will be operating. We should not press too hard on Glasgow this morning. What is important is that we are going through a rigorous process, and I am happy explain the details of it to members. The local authority in Glasgow has a blue traffic-light status and we have no reason to doubt that it is ready. Again, I will give Fiona McLeod information about the process so that she can be reassured that what is happening in every other council in Scotland is also happening in Glasgow.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am happy to consider inviting MSPs. I do not know whether we will be able to accommodate both MSPs and the media on the same day, but I support the idea of MSPs attending. I shall discuss the matter of involving interested MSPs. It would be useful for all of us to see the physical context in which SILC will be operating.

We should not press too hard on Glasgow this morning. What is important is that we are going through a rigorous process, and I am happy explain the details of it to members. The local authority in Glasgow has a blue traffic-light status and we have no reason to doubt that it is ready. Again, I will give Fiona McLeod information about the process so that she can be reassured that what is happening in every other council in Scotland is also happening in Glasgow.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C711335", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27031, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27031, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 33.0, "ContributionID": 711335, "EditedText": "I do not think that the system works like that. We have been keen to act as the key co-ordinator in ensuring that public and private organisations are millennium ready. That demands an enormous amount of good will from the utilities and from the small and medium enterprises, which we are still trying to involve. This is not a question of indemnity. It is about ensuring that every conceivable step has been taken to avoid disruption on the very important night when we move from one millennium to another. The objective has always been to get the systems and processes right, rather than to deal with Mr Davidson's points, however important they might be to him.", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not think that the system works like that. We have been keen to act as the key co-ordinator in ensuring that public and private organisations are millennium ready. That demands an enormous amount of good will from the utilities and from the small and medium enterprises, which we are still trying to involve.

This is not a question of indemnity. It is about ensuring that every conceivable step has been taken to avoid disruption on the very important night when we move from one millennium to another. The objective has always been to get the systems and processes right, rather than to deal with Mr Davidson's points, however important they might be to him.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C711336", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27031, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27031, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon (Argyll and Bute) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 35.0, "ContributionID": 711336, "EditedText": "I want to raise again the issue of ministerial responsibility. SILC will be in full control from 6 pm on 31 December through to 6 pm on 1 January. Which minister will head that team, and which ministers will go to the street parties?", "EditedTextHTML": "I want to raise again the issue of ministerial responsibility. SILC will be in full control from 6 pm on 31 December through to 6 pm on 1 January. Which minister will head that team, and which ministers will go to the street parties?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C711337", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27031, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27031, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 37.0, "ContributionID": 711337, "EditedText": "I am sad to say that I will not be going to any street parties as I have drawn the short straw and will be on duty. MEMBERS: \"Aw.\" I should have been able to elicit a better response than that feeble effort. Interruption. Is John Swinney suggesting that he wants to be there as well?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sad to say that I will not be going to any street parties as I have drawn the short straw and will be on duty. [MEMBERS: \"Aw.\"] I should have been able to elicit a better response than that feeble effort. [Interruption.] Is John Swinney suggesting that he wants to be there as well?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C711345", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27031, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27031, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 53.0, "ContributionID": 711345, "EditedText": "I could give a number of answers to that but I will stick to the text. With 50 days to go it is important that we flag up that this is a crucial issue for Scotland. Beyond today every family will be preparing for Christmas and our eye might be off the ball. We are taking the opportunity in the Scottish Parliament, with consensus on the issue, to send a message that the Government is doing as much as it can. However, we still need to get through to the small and medium businesses where there is still progress to be made. I am sure that a large number of speakers will want to contribute to the debate.", "EditedTextHTML": "I could give a number of answers to that but I will stick to the text. With 50 days to go it is important that we flag up that this is a crucial issue for Scotland. Beyond today every family will be preparing for Christmas and our eye might be off the ball. We are taking the opportunity in the Scottish Parliament, with consensus on the issue, to send a message that the Government is doing as much as it can. However, we still need to get through to the small and medium businesses where there is still progress to be made. I am sure that a large number of speakers will want to contribute to the debate.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2068E171P304C711348", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27031, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27031, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stone, Jamie", "ID": 2068, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie Stone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 59.0, "ContributionID": 711348, "EditedText": "We are all likely to be struggling for a soundbite today—it is a very important subject but not dreadfully newsy. I want to ask about a matter that is not devolved, the United Kingdom Atomic Energy Authority installation, Dounreay. What communication has the minister's department had with it and will it be supervised from SILC?", "EditedTextHTML": "We are all likely to be struggling for a soundbite today—it is a very important subject but not dreadfully newsy. I want to ask about a matter that is not devolved, the United Kingdom Atomic Energy Authority installation, Dounreay. What communication has the minister's department had with it and will it be supervised from SILC?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C711349", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27031, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27031, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 61.0, "ContributionID": 711349, "EditedText": "There have been detailed discussions between the Department of Trade and Industry, the installation, the nuclear inspectorate and the Scottish Executive. We are millennium ready on all activities related to that facility and to nuclear power stations. Again, we are very pleased with the response we have had. I appreciate how important that question is in terms of public perception of potential difficulties, but again I give my assurance and I will provide Jamie Stone with further information on the discussions that have taken place.", "EditedTextHTML": "There have been detailed discussions between the Department of Trade and Industry, the installation, the nuclear inspectorate and the Scottish Executive. We are millennium ready on all activities related to that facility and to nuclear power stations. Again, we are very pleased with the response we have had. I appreciate how important that question is in terms of public perception of potential difficulties, but again I give my assurance and I will provide Jamie Stone with further information on the discussions that have taken place.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1775E171P452C711359", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27031, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27031, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeod, Fiona", "ID": 1775, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona McLeod", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona McLeod (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 83.0, "ContributionID": 711359, "EditedText": "I appreciate that we should be debating the important issues raised by Miss Goldie, but Y2K is about the preparedness of all our services to meet the problems that they might face. More important, we need the debate today. As we have learned from the statement, and the questions and answers, there are still issues to be addressed— we need to be sure that the Executive takes them on board.", "EditedTextHTML": "I appreciate that we should be debating the important issues raised by Miss Goldie, but Y2K is about the preparedness of all our services to meet the problems that they might face. More important, we need the debate today. As we have learned from the statement, and the questions and answers, there are still issues to be addressed— we need to be sure that the Executive takes them on board.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C711354", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27031, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27031, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 72.0, "ContributionID": 711354, "EditedText": "Mr Swinney has made some interesting points, covering a wide range from digital Scotland to the Prime Minister's commitments. However, in a serious vein, I must make the point that we could have gone into a tremendous amount of detail this morning—three hours would not have been enough to deal with one department. I am happy to ensure that Mr Swinney receives all the details on how the independent assessment has been carried out. I would not like him, in his political or practical points, to undermine what we have done, because it has been a formidable task for Government departments and utilities. Without his knowing the full facts, which can be put at his disposal, it would be unwise for Mr Swinney to dent public confidence as a remarkable effort has been made, and the results have been positive.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Swinney has made some interesting points, covering a wide range from digital Scotland to the Prime Minister's commitments. However, in a serious vein, I must make the point that we could have gone into a tremendous amount of detail this morning—three hours would not have been enough to deal with one department. I am happy to ensure that Mr Swinney receives all the details on how the independent assessment has been carried out. I would not like him, in his political or practical points, to undermine what we have done, because it has been a formidable task for Government departments and utilities. Without his knowing the full facts, which can be put at his disposal, it would be unwise for Mr Swinney to dent public confidence as a remarkable effort has been made, and the results have been positive.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C711356", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27031, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27031, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 76.0, "ContributionID": 711356, "EditedText": "When the Deputy Minister for Justice winds up, he will address the issue that Mr Swinney raised, but I want to make a serious point about his contribution. Mr Swinney is absolutely right. We are concentrating on the problem of the date change from 31 December 1999 to 1 January 2000. However, there are also problems arising from the fact that 1900 was not a leap year and 2000 is a leap year. That makes 28 February a critical point, as there might be problems with systems jumping forward to 1 March. Work is also being done in the United Kingdom and America on a discontinuity period that stretches well into the future. I want to reassure Mr Swinney on three issues. First, the date change problem has been acknowledged. Secondly, it has also been acknowledged that there will be problems until the end of February. Thirdly, with experts in the field we will continue to oversee the longer period, so that the questions that Mr Swinney raised can be taken care of. This is a very important issue, which is why I do not want to give the impression that all we have arranged is a one-night sit-in to deal with disruption if it happens. The strategy is much wider than that and much longer in duration.", "EditedTextHTML": "When the Deputy Minister for Justice winds up, he will address the issue that Mr Swinney raised, but I want to make a serious point about his contribution. Mr Swinney is absolutely right. We are concentrating on the problem of the date change from 31 December 1999 to 1 January 2000. However, there are also problems arising from the fact that 1900 was not a leap year and 2000 is a leap year. That makes 28 February a critical point, as there might be problems with systems jumping forward to 1 March. Work is also being done in the United Kingdom and America on a discontinuity period that stretches well into the future.

I want to reassure Mr Swinney on three issues. First, the date change problem has been acknowledged. Secondly, it has also been acknowledged that there will be problems until the end of February. Thirdly, with experts in the field we will continue to oversee the longer period, so that the questions that Mr Swinney raised can be taken care of. This is a very important issue, which is why I do not want to give the impression that all we have arranged is a one-night sit-in to deal with disruption if it happens. The strategy is much wider than that and much longer in duration.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C711361", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27031, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27031, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon (Argyll and Bute) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 88.0, "ContributionID": 711361, "EditedText": "After that speech, Miss Goldie has ruled herself out of the invitation to partake in the bunker on new year's eve. The Conservative party is represented on the Parliamentary Bureau; I take it that those objections were raised during the discussion about the business that would be put forward for debate today.", "EditedTextHTML": "After that speech, Miss Goldie has ruled herself out of the invitation to partake in the bunker on new year's eve. The Conservative party is represented on the Parliamentary Bureau; I take it that those objections were raised during the discussion about the business that would be put forward for debate today.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C711363", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27031, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27031, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 92.0, "ContributionID": 711363, "EditedText": "I thank Mr Swinney for that intervention. There is a fair degree of consensus on the amount of time that was allowed for the European debate, and I agree with the sentiments that were raised. In general, I welcome the Executive's statement. There are several key areas on which we need further clarification and reassurance that we will not find our public infrastructure in serious difficulties on the night of 31 December. We also need reassurance that the challenges presented by the year 2000 problem are being adequately dealt with. I welcome the minister's reassurances on Loganair and Caledonian MacBrayne. Those companies provide services that are important to the constituency that I represent. The last thing that we want is to have any questions over those two lifeline services—without them, we would be in a serious situation. Many of us would fail to get to the street parties that we would all like to attend. I noticed that the minister touched on the question of industry in his speech. Action 2000 has been conducting quarterly surveys on the preparedness of industry, and its September findings showed that 27 per cent of small to medium enterprises have considerable work to do if they are to trade smoothly into the next millennium. Don Cruickshank, then chair of Action 2000, admitted that that figure was extremely disappointing. I wonder whether the minister can give us an update and further clarification on the progress that SMEs have made since the September announcement. The Scottish Executive's year 2000 website states: \"The Scottish Executive, in conjunction with the providers of key public services, aim to ensure that there will be no material disruption to essential public services on 1 January 2000.\" I am sure that we all welcome those sentiments, but, as the minister said in one of his interventions, 1 January is not the key date. Many of the problems will not occur immediately after the stroke of midnight. The potential consequences and subsequent failure and corruption of data files and processes might not arise, or be noticed, or take effect for some considerable time afterwards. There must be on-going monitoring of the effects well into the next year. Will the minister clarify the qualification for and use of the blue, amber and red light standards to identify the preparedness of the national infrastructure for the year 2000? I am sure that many of us in the Parliament and beyond will welcome the assurances that the minister has given, that the vast majority of the national infrastructure is moving towards blue light status. I would like a little further clarification on exactly what blue light status stands for. My understanding is that it means that the year 2000 activities of the assigned industry or sector have been independently examined and endorsed by assessors who have not identified any risk of material disruption. That is a subjective statement. I accept that there is always the potential for something to have been missed, but I hope that the Executive will comment on the specific criteria used in awarding the blue standard to various sectors. For example, the offshore oil and gas industry was examined by W S Atkins for year 2000 compliance. On 21 October, W S Atkins reported to the Department of Trade and Industry that, in applying the Action 2000 red, amber and blue colour coding system to its assessment, it could, with confidence, award the sector an overall 100 per cent blue for preparedness. However, the W S Atkins summary of its October findings states: \"There are a number of elements to be completed, such as the finalisation of remedial work, contingency plans, millennium operating regimes and final assurance/discussions with critical third parties. However, there was no indication . . . that any of those outstanding actions were not being properly managed.\" I would like the minister to clarify what blue light status means. Clearly, the industry had not fulfilled all the requirements that the independent assessors were seeking. It is clear, from the example that I have just given, that having blue light status does not mean that the industry has a green light to proceed into the new millennium. Several areas are still to be addressed. The distinction within the blue classification, between the sectors that have completed the work and the sectors that expect to complete the work, must be clarified.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank Mr Swinney for that intervention. There is a fair degree of consensus on the amount of time that was allowed for the European debate, and I agree with the sentiments that were raised.

In general, I welcome the Executive's statement. There are several key areas on which we need further clarification and reassurance that we will not find our public infrastructure in serious difficulties on the night of 31 December. We also need reassurance that the challenges presented by the year 2000 problem are being adequately dealt with.

I welcome the minister's reassurances on Loganair and Caledonian MacBrayne. Those companies provide services that are important to the constituency that I represent. The last thing that we want is to have any questions over those two lifeline services—without them, we would be in a serious situation. Many of us would fail to get to the street parties that we would all like to attend.

I noticed that the minister touched on the question of industry in his speech. Action 2000 has been conducting quarterly surveys on the preparedness of industry, and its September findings showed that 27 per cent of small to medium enterprises have considerable work to do if they are to trade smoothly into the next millennium. Don Cruickshank, then chair of Action 2000, admitted that that figure was extremely disappointing. I wonder whether the minister can give us an update and further clarification on the progress that SMEs have made since the September announcement.

The Scottish Executive's year 2000 website states:

\"The Scottish Executive, in conjunction with the providers of key public services, aim to ensure that there will be no material disruption to essential public services on 1 January 2000.\"

I am sure that we all welcome those sentiments, but, as the minister said in one of his interventions, 1 January is not the key date. Many of the problems will not occur immediately after the stroke of midnight. The potential consequences and subsequent failure and corruption of data files and processes might not arise, or be noticed, or take effect for some considerable time afterwards. There must be on-going monitoring of the effects well into the next year.

Will the minister clarify the qualification for and use of the blue, amber and red light standards to identify the preparedness of the national infrastructure for the year 2000? I am sure that many of us in the Parliament and beyond will welcome the assurances that the minister has given, that the vast majority of the national infrastructure is moving towards blue light status. I would like a little further clarification on exactly what blue light status stands for. My understanding is that it means that the year 2000 activities of the assigned industry or sector have been independently examined and endorsed by assessors who have not identified any risk of material disruption. That is a subjective statement. I accept that there is always the potential for something to have been missed, but I hope that the Executive will comment on the specific criteria used in awarding the blue standard to various sectors.

For example, the offshore oil and gas industry was examined by W S Atkins for year 2000 compliance. On 21 October, W S Atkins reported to the Department of Trade and Industry that, in applying the Action 2000 red, amber and blue colour coding system to its assessment, it could, with confidence, award the sector an overall 100 per cent blue for preparedness. However, the W S Atkins summary of its October findings states:

\"There are a number of elements to be completed, such as the finalisation of remedial work, contingency plans, millennium operating regimes and final assurance/discussions with critical third parties. However, there was no indication . . . that any of those outstanding actions were not being properly managed.\"

I would like the minister to clarify what blue light status means. Clearly, the industry had not fulfilled all the requirements that the independent assessors were seeking.

It is clear, from the example that I have just given, that having blue light status does not mean that the industry has a green light to proceed into the new millennium. Several areas are still to be addressed. The distinction within the blue classification, between the sectors that have completed the work and the sectors that expect to complete the work, must be clarified.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1770E82P108C711371", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27031, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27031, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Thomson, Elaine", "ID": 1770, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Thomson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Elaine Thomson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 109.0, "ContributionID": 711371, "EditedText": "We are having the debate and, if I ever get to say anything, we will continue to have the debate. I do not necessarily think that it is sending out the wrong signals. I believe that the Government programme, Action 2000, has done its job very effectively; awareness in all sectors now appears to be high. All sections of the infrastructure have been checked over and can be relied on—they have blue status, which means that there is no risk of material disruption. I know that the Y2K issue has left many people confused about what the problem is and why it poses a risk. As someone who, in the late 1980s, was working on non-year 2000 compliant systems, I perhaps have a clearer view than most. What has been demonstrated is the effect of the digital revolution that is all around us. The use of information technology is now a core activity. It is essential to the continued smooth functioning of many everyday activities in society. There has been an explosion in the use of embedded chips in everyday devices. They are in lifts, washing machines, cars—you name it. Many organisations and companies simply could not function without the support of IT, and the infrastructure of this country could not continue to function without the underlying computer systems. Some may claim that some of the work that has been done has been unnecessary but, without checking, we could not have been sure. Much of the software that was written 10 or 20 years ago was not expected to be still in use today. Over that period, there have been incredible changes in technology. The constraints in writing software 20 years ago, or even 10 years ago, do not exist now. Software was written using only two digits to indicate the year; it did not include the century. That is why we have the problems that we have now. Today, almost all sectors have been checked and remedial action has been taken where necessary. We know that, after the new year, water will be safe to drink, food will continue to turn up in supermarkets, our money will continue to be in banks, and hospitals and Government agencies will continue to run and provide services as usual. There has been a lot of hype around the year 2000 issue—with talk of pensions disappearing into black holes and planes falling from the sky. Those fears have been proved false. Last week, a headline in Computer Weekly, one of the main IT newspapers, said: \"Y2K bug will be non-event, say IT directors\". That is good news. It reflects the fact that the necessary remedial work has been done and that, in global terms, the United Kingdom is well prepared. Most organisations, as the minister made clear, have also put in place contingency plans to cope with any failures that may occur. The scale and cost of meeting this challenge have been high across society. In the national health service in Scotland alone, some £45 million has been spent on year 2000 checks and on equipment replacement. Some 78,000 pieces of equipment have been tested, including 37,000 personal computers and 5,000 laboratory items. Many employees of organisations such as hospitals and banks will spend hogmanay at work, ensuring that any problems that occur are identified and resolved as soon as possible. The oil and gas industry will be monitoring the situation across the globe through the night and feeding information back to the Department of Trade and Industry. Many organisations—banks and others— will be in communication with Australia and New Zealand, where people will know some 12 hours earlier whether any disruption is likely to occur. That will give us more time to take action where necessary. I believe that the major problems in Scotland will be the ones that we usually have around hogmanay—not enough peanuts and one toast too many.", "EditedTextHTML": "We are having the debate and, if I ever get to say anything, we will continue to have the debate. I do not necessarily think that it is sending out the wrong signals.

I believe that the Government programme, Action 2000, has done its job very effectively; awareness in all sectors now appears to be high. All sections of the infrastructure have been checked over and can be relied on—they have blue status, which means that there is no risk of material disruption.

I know that the Y2K issue has left many people confused about what the problem is and why it poses a risk. As someone who, in the late 1980s, was working on non-year 2000 compliant systems, I perhaps have a clearer view than most. What has been demonstrated is the effect of the digital revolution that is all around us. The use of information technology is now a core activity. It is essential to the continued smooth functioning of many everyday activities in society.

There has been an explosion in the use of embedded chips in everyday devices. They are in lifts, washing machines, cars—you name it. Many organisations and companies simply could not function without the support of IT, and the infrastructure of this country could not continue to function without the underlying computer systems.

Some may claim that some of the work that has been done has been unnecessary but, without checking, we could not have been sure. Much of the software that was written 10 or 20 years ago was not expected to be still in use today. Over that period, there have been incredible changes in technology. The constraints in writing software 20 years ago, or even 10 years ago, do not exist now. Software was written using only two digits to indicate the year; it did not include the century. That is why we have the problems that we have now.

Today, almost all sectors have been checked and remedial action has been taken where necessary. We know that, after the new year, water will be safe to drink, food will continue to turn up in supermarkets, our money will continue to be in banks, and hospitals and Government agencies will continue to run and provide services as usual.

There has been a lot of hype around the year 2000 issue—with talk of pensions disappearing into black holes and planes falling from the sky. Those fears have been proved false. Last week, a headline in Computer Weekly, one of the main IT newspapers, said: \"Y2K bug will be non-event, say IT directors\". That is good news. It reflects the fact that the necessary remedial work has been done and that, in global terms, the United Kingdom is well prepared. Most organisations, as the minister made clear, have also put in place contingency plans to cope with any failures that may occur.

The scale and cost of meeting this challenge have been high across society. In the national health service in Scotland alone, some £45 million has been spent on year 2000 checks and on equipment replacement. Some 78,000 pieces of equipment have been tested, including 37,000 personal computers and 5,000 laboratory items.

Many employees of organisations such as hospitals and banks will spend hogmanay at work, ensuring that any problems that occur are identified and resolved as soon as possible. The oil and gas industry will be monitoring the situation across the globe through the night and feeding information back to the Department of Trade and

Industry. Many organisations—banks and others— will be in communication with Australia and New Zealand, where people will know some 12 hours earlier whether any disruption is likely to occur. That will give us more time to take action where necessary.

I believe that the major problems in Scotland will be the ones that we usually have around hogmanay—not enough peanuts and one toast too many.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1775E171P452C711372", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27031, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27031, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeod, Fiona", "ID": 1775, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona McLeod", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona McLeod (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 112.0, "ContributionID": 711372, "EditedText": "Like Elaine, I was worried that people would think that we were a pair of anoraks, but I am glad that the contributions so far have shown that people have thought about the problem and realised that it affects everyday matters and so should be a high priority. I want to concentrate on the date discontinuity aspect of the problem. As John Swinney said, the so-called millennium bug is actually nothing of the sort. It is a problem that could recur intermittently on 1 April and 1 September over the next few decades up to 2035. The phrase \"date discontinuity\" better indicates the general nature of the problem and helps to identify what types of microchip could be affected. It especially helps us to appreciate that, whatever happens at hogmanay, the problem will not be over then but will resurface for many years to come. I ask the Executive what it proposes to do about those future critical dates—in his statement, the minister reassured neither me nor the chamber that any plans had been made to deal with the longer-term implications. Such planning is important for Governments and local authorities. It is vital that organisations such as the utilities and emergency services are fully in control at all critical times. The BCPs that we have heard about—I thought that I would be the first to introduce acronyms—should be able to cope with whatever emergencies arise at the turn of the year. We all hope that there will be minimum disruption. However, what will happen on the other predicted or potential critical dates? Will the same BCPs be effective in nine months' or two years' time? A good BCP tells an organisation how to keep its business running when problems of any sort arise. However, any management plan or routine left by itself will deteriorate over time. Although it is all very well to have emergency co-ordinating offices such as SILC—or, as I gather it is called, the bunker—in operation over hogmanay, if such date discontinuity problems arise in the foreseeable future, I have to ask whether the Executive has issued advice on ongoing preparedness.What is the Executive's advice to organisations which choose to switch off vulnerable systems or equipment over the millennium while we are all having a five-day holiday? What will happen when those systems are switched on after 5 January— after SILC has stood down—and they malfunction? Although the millennium operating regime will probably work well over the millennium holiday, if too many organisations choose to suspend operation of vulnerable equipment at that time, many of them will find that they have only delayed the onset of these difficulties. That is worrying enough for the owners of small businesses. However, if there any chinks in Scotland's national armour and problems become manifest later, our preparations will have been inadequate. The day-to-day emergencies suffered by our society can be uniformly addressed. We have a framework of legislation identifying the emergency services that can be called into play on occasions such as cases of fire or murder. As the date discontinuity problem could be with us for many years, the country must decide to cope with it in a similarly coherent and sustainable way. Scotland needs to develop mechanisms to manage effectively and reliably its knowledge base—how we hold, distribute and analyse information. Furthermore, we need to develop and implement a national integrated information strategy to ensure that there are mechanisms to deal with problems when they arise and not just with such one-offs as the matter that we are discussing today.", "EditedTextHTML": "Like Elaine, I was worried that people would think that we were a pair of anoraks, but I am glad that the contributions so far have shown that people have thought about the problem and realised that it affects everyday matters and so should be a high priority.

I want to concentrate on the date discontinuity aspect of the problem. As John Swinney said, the so-called millennium bug is actually nothing of the sort. It is a problem that could recur intermittently on 1 April and 1 September over the next few decades up to 2035. The phrase \"date discontinuity\" better indicates the general nature of the problem and helps to identify what types of microchip could be affected. It especially helps us to appreciate that, whatever happens at hogmanay, the problem will not be over then but will resurface for many years to come. I ask the Executive what it proposes to do about those future critical dates—in his statement, the minister reassured neither me nor the chamber that any plans had been made to deal with the longer-term implications.

Such planning is important for Governments and local authorities. It is vital that organisations such as the utilities and emergency services are fully in control at all critical times. The BCPs that we have heard about—I thought that I would be the first to introduce acronyms—should be able to cope with whatever emergencies arise at the turn of the year. We all hope that there will be minimum disruption.

However, what will happen on the other predicted or potential critical dates? Will the same BCPs be effective in nine months' or two years' time? A good BCP tells an organisation how to keep its business running when problems of any sort arise. However, any management plan or routine left by itself will deteriorate over time. Although it is all very well to have emergency co-ordinating offices such as SILC—or, as I gather it is called, the bunker—in operation over hogmanay, if such date discontinuity problems arise in the foreseeable future, I have to ask whether the Executive has issued advice on on

going preparedness.

What is the Executive's advice to organisations which choose to switch off vulnerable systems or equipment over the millennium while we are all having a five-day holiday? What will happen when those systems are switched on after 5 January— after SILC has stood down—and they malfunction?

Although the millennium operating regime will probably work well over the millennium holiday, if too many organisations choose to suspend operation of vulnerable equipment at that time, many of them will find that they have only delayed the onset of these difficulties. That is worrying enough for the owners of small businesses. However, if there any chinks in Scotland's national armour and problems become manifest later, our preparations will have been inadequate.

The day-to-day emergencies suffered by our society can be uniformly addressed. We have a framework of legislation identifying the emergency services that can be called into play on occasions such as cases of fire or murder. As the date discontinuity problem could be with us for many years, the country must decide to cope with it in a similarly coherent and sustainable way.

Scotland needs to develop mechanisms to manage effectively and reliably its knowledge base—how we hold, distribute and analyse information. Furthermore, we need to develop and implement a national integrated information strategy to ensure that there are mechanisms to deal with problems when they arise and not just with such one-offs as the matter that we are discussing today.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2207E94P262C711373", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27031, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27031, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Barrie, Scott", "ID": 2207, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dunfermline West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Scott Barrie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Scott Barrie (Dunfermline West) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 115.0, "ContributionID": 711373, "EditedText": "Like other MSPs, I welcome today's statement and debate on the preparedness of the Scottish infrastructure for the year 2000. The year 2000 poses serious problems for all organisations and businesses that use computer systems and equipment containing embedded microprocessors. The use of computers and computer-based technology has become so pervasive over the past two decades that it is almost impossible to remember how we managed before. Indeed, I am part of probably the last generation to have gone through school without access to the computers that we now take for granted in the classroom. The problem of year 2000 compliance lies in the fact that dates were stored in computer systems using only the last two digits of the year. For that reason, systems may fail or produce erroneous results in processing dates involving the year 2000. That would be bad enough without the fact that some equipment used by organisations is controlled by microprocessors that use date and time information to function. When the year 2000 issue was first discussed, I imagined that I could do no better than stand outside my local bank autoteller with a wheelbarrow to collect the wads of cash that would spew out of the machine when the bank's computer system failed. Unfortunately, there are two major flaws in my get-rich-quick scheme. First, today's ministerial statement indicates that the banking sector feels completely year 2000 compliant. Secondly, given previous years' experience, the last thing that I will be able to do at midnight on hogmanay is to stand anywhere. When I first heard of the potential impact of the transition from this calendar year to the next, I was somewhat sceptical. I thought it might be just another scam by computer anoraks—I apologise to Elaine Thomson and Fiona McLeod—to confuse the rest of us with their superior knowledge or to get a lot of extra cash out of us by pretending that there was a huge problem when there was not. However, graphic descriptions of planes falling out of the sky and heating systems failing in our hospitals soon led me to understand that there might indeed be a major problem that needed to be taken seriously. It is clear from today's statement that local councils, the utilities and larger businesses have worked hard to ensure that their systems are year 2000 compliant. That will be an immense relief to everyone, particularly the more vulnerable in our society who would suffer directly if there were major disruption to our social or health care services. It is particularly pleasing to hear that all local authorities made tremendous progress in the summer to ensure that there would be no material disruption to the infrastructure processes during the new year holiday. It is also reassuring to hear that most Scottish infrastructure is already Y2K compliant. I hope that those areas that are not yet fully ready—some of our smaller businesses, for example—will realise the importance of becoming compliant and will take the opportunity of the next few weeks to ensure that they are.", "EditedTextHTML": "Like other MSPs, I welcome today's statement and debate on the preparedness of the Scottish infrastructure for the year 2000.

The year 2000 poses serious problems for all organisations and businesses that use computer systems and equipment containing embedded microprocessors. The use of computers and computer-based technology has become so pervasive over the past two decades that it is almost impossible to remember how we managed before. Indeed, I am part of probably the last generation to have gone through school without access to the computers that we now take for granted in the classroom.

The problem of year 2000 compliance lies in the fact that dates were stored in computer systems using only the last two digits of the year. For that reason, systems may fail or produce erroneous results in processing dates involving the year

2000. That would be bad enough without the fact that some equipment used by organisations is controlled by microprocessors that use date and time information to function.

When the year 2000 issue was first discussed, I imagined that I could do no better than stand outside my local bank autoteller with a wheelbarrow to collect the wads of cash that would spew out of the machine when the bank's computer system failed. Unfortunately, there are two major flaws in my get-rich-quick scheme. First, today's ministerial statement indicates that the banking sector feels completely year 2000 compliant. Secondly, given previous years' experience, the last thing that I will be able to do at midnight on hogmanay is to stand anywhere.

When I first heard of the potential impact of the transition from this calendar year to the next, I was somewhat sceptical. I thought it might be just another scam by computer anoraks—I apologise to Elaine Thomson and Fiona McLeod—to confuse the rest of us with their superior knowledge or to get a lot of extra cash out of us by pretending that there was a huge problem when there was not. However, graphic descriptions of planes falling out of the sky and heating systems failing in our hospitals soon led me to understand that there might indeed be a major problem that needed to be taken seriously.

It is clear from today's statement that local councils, the utilities and larger businesses have worked hard to ensure that their systems are year 2000 compliant. That will be an immense relief to everyone, particularly the more vulnerable in our society who would suffer directly if there were major disruption to our social or health care services.

It is particularly pleasing to hear that all local authorities made tremendous progress in the summer to ensure that there would be no material disruption to the infrastructure processes during the new year holiday. It is also reassuring to hear that most Scottish infrastructure is already Y2K compliant. I hope that those areas that are not yet fully ready—some of our smaller businesses, for example—will realise the importance of becoming compliant and will take the opportunity of the next few weeks to ensure that they are.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1805E13P109C711376", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27031, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27031, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Whitefield, Karen", "ID": 1805, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Airdrie and Shotts" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Karen Whitefield", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Karen Whitefield (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 124.0, "ContributionID": 711376, "EditedText": "The problem of the so-called millennium bug seems to have been with us for an eternity, yet many private and public organisations have left the bulk of their preparations until the last quarter of the last decade of the century. I will not regurgitate the roots of the millennium bug problem, which have been sufficiently described this morning. However, we must learn from the past. What seemed like an insignificant memory-saving device in the 1960s—storing date codes in two digits—has had substantial and far- reaching consequences. For example, it has been estimated that the 15 largest banks in the United States expect to spend $3.5 billion preparing for Y2K. The profound financial impact of what was, at the time, no more than short-sightedness demonstrates the ever-pressing need to evaluate the long-term impact of new technologies. I welcome the statement by the Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and recognise the efforts of staff members in all sectors. It is only through thorough endeavours that we can say with some confidence that the Government's stated aim—that there should be no material disruption to the national infrastructure as a result of the millennium bug—will be achieved. It is important that the preparations have been thorough; it is equally important that they have been seen to be thorough. There has been much scaremongering in the media about the apocalyptic consequences of the millennium bug, and it is important for that reason that we highlight the endeavours of various agencies in achieving the blue light rating. All 32 Scottish local authorities have met the criteria for that rating, as have the three Scottish water authorities and all sections of the national health service, the prison and fire services and the police. I believe that the Scottish people can have confidence that public services will be functional on 1 January. Part of that confidence should stem from the knowledge that councils and other public and quasi-public bodies have made adequate contingency plans. The problem of embedded systems will inevitably result in some disruption; the immensity of the problem makes that almost unavoidable. We must continue, however, to minimise the problem through the completion of proper inventories and the testing of equipment. To conclude, I am confident that Scotland's largest millennium celebration under cover, Masters of the Millennium—which, coincidentally, will be held in Shotts and broadcast across the globe on the worldwide web—will be a raving success. The public address, lighting and internet services will have an undisrupted supply of electricity. The emergency services will be able to deal with those who have celebrated a little too enthusiastically and, the next morning, when it is all over, public transport will be available.", "EditedTextHTML": "The problem of the so-called millennium bug seems to have been with us for an eternity, yet many private and public organisations have left the bulk of their preparations until the last quarter of the last decade of the century.

I will not regurgitate the roots of the millennium bug problem, which have been sufficiently described this morning. However, we must learn from the past. What seemed like an insignificant memory-saving device in the 1960s—storing date codes in two digits—has had substantial and far- reaching consequences. For example, it has been estimated that the 15 largest banks in the United States expect to spend $3.5 billion preparing for Y2K.

The profound financial impact of what was, at the time, no more than short-sightedness demonstrates the ever-pressing need to evaluate the long-term impact of new technologies. I welcome the statement by the Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and recognise the efforts of staff members in all sectors. It is only through thorough endeavours that we can say with some confidence that the Government's stated aim—that there should be no material disruption to the national infrastructure as a result of the millennium bug—will be achieved. It is important that the preparations have been thorough; it is equally important that they have been seen to be thorough.

There has been much scaremongering in the media about the apocalyptic consequences of the millennium bug, and it is important for that reason that we highlight the endeavours of various agencies in achieving the blue light rating. All 32 Scottish local authorities have met the criteria for that rating, as have the three Scottish water authorities and all sections of the national health service, the prison and fire services and the police.

I believe that the Scottish people can have confidence that public services will be functional on 1 January. Part of that confidence should stem from the knowledge that councils and other public and quasi-public bodies have made adequate contingency plans.

The problem of embedded systems will inevitably result in some disruption; the immensity of the problem makes that almost unavoidable. We must continue, however, to minimise the problem through the completion of proper inventories and the testing of equipment.

To conclude, I am confident that Scotland's largest millennium celebration under cover, Masters of the Millennium—which, coincidentally, will be held in Shotts and broadcast across the globe on the worldwide web—will be a raving success. The public address, lighting and internet services will have an undisrupted supply of electricity. The emergency services will be able to deal with those who have celebrated a little too enthusiastically and, the next morning, when it is all over, public transport will be available.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711377", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Two Minutes' Silence", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27032, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 126.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 126.0, "ID": 27032, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 127.0, "ContributionID": 711377, "EditedText": "It is now the 11th hour of the 11th day of the 11th month. I invite members and visitors in the gallery to stand and join in the nation's two minutes' silence in remembrance of those who gave their lives in defence of the freedoms that we enjoy here today. They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old. Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn. At the going down of the sun and in the morning We will remember them.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is now the 11th hour of the 11th day of the 11th month. I invite members and visitors in the gallery to stand and join in the nation's two minutes' silence in remembrance of those who gave their lives in defence of the freedoms that we enjoy here today.

They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old. Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn. At the going down of the sun and in the morning We will remember them.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C711379", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27033, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 129.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 129.0, "ID": 27033, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 132.0, "ContributionID": 711379, "EditedText": "Thank you, Presiding Officer. I acknowledge the moment. It is a credit to everyone in this Parliament that there has been such a large turnout for the two minutes' silence, which contrasts with the number of members who were in the chamber earlier in the debate. Kenny MacAskill expressed some confidence in the minister's statement. He acknowledged that if there is a minister of integrity, that minister is indeed Henry McLeish. I will add to the minister's misery by saying that I endorse that view and that one part of his statement was endorsed in a most unusual way. He said that there were 50 days to go. When I looked at the Forth rail bridge today, I saw that the sign confirmed that. Minister, I guess that Railtrack also endorses you. At times in his statement, the minister seemed to suggest that the new Labour Government found the millennium bug when it came to office, but that is not quite true. Elaine Thomson was right when she suggested that many people were working on the problem back in the 1980s. The problems that lay ahead were recognised at the time by the company that I worked with prior to my election in 1992. Organisations such as the Confederation of British Industry and the Federation of Small Businesses were well aware of the situation well before 1997, as was the Government of the day. This Government appears to have done a reasonable job. It was important that it considered the issues as a provider of services and as a co-ordinator, and it has done that. However, it is a little over the top for the minister to suggest that the Government's approach is a first and that no such approach has been taken elsewhere in the world. It bodes ill for us, should that be the case, because we are part of an international market, as the minister and his colleagues constantly remind us. Karen Whitefield mentioned the worldwide web. If the rest of the world has not done its homework—as the minister seemed to suggest— that could mean catastrophe for British business. Annabel Goldie asked whether we face catastrophic failure. My reply would be that we can be greatly assured by the fact that the Government is prepared to accept the buck; if it is prepared to accept the buck, it must be pretty sure that no real problems are lurking around the corner. On a more serious note, we must first consider some of the public services such as the health, fire, police and ambulance services, not forgetting—I see that Angus MacKay is here—the Prison Service. The Government must offer guarantees on those areas. All those services are signalling blue lights to represent a symbol of confidence. I welcome the fact that blue was chosen as the colour that would give confidence and signify that all was well. That was surely not by chance, but simply because blue is the Conservative colour and we all recognise that Conservatives are always well prepared and organised. I suspect that there might be some division on that view, but this debate could do with a bit of contention. Perhaps that will do the trick.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you, Presiding Officer.

I acknowledge the moment. It is a credit to everyone in this Parliament that there has been such a large turnout for the two minutes' silence, which contrasts with the number of members who were in the chamber earlier in the debate.

Kenny MacAskill expressed some confidence in the minister's statement. He acknowledged that if there is a minister of integrity, that minister is indeed Henry McLeish. I will add to the minister's misery by saying that I endorse that view and that one part of his statement was endorsed in a most unusual way. He said that there were 50 days to go. When I looked at the Forth rail bridge today, I saw that the sign confirmed that. Minister, I guess that Railtrack also endorses you.

At times in his statement, the minister seemed to suggest that the new Labour Government found the millennium bug when it came to office, but that is not quite true. Elaine Thomson was right when she suggested that many people were working on the problem back in the 1980s. The problems that lay ahead were recognised at the time by the company that I worked with prior to my election in 1992. Organisations such as the Confederation of British Industry and the Federation of Small Businesses were well aware of the situation well before 1997, as was the Government of the day.

This Government appears to have done a reasonable job. It was important that it considered the issues as a provider of services and as a co-ordinator, and it has done that. However, it is a little over the top for the minister to suggest that the Government's approach is a first and that no such approach has been taken elsewhere in the world. It bodes ill for us, should that be the case, because we are part of an international market, as the minister and his colleagues constantly remind us. Karen Whitefield mentioned the worldwide web. If the rest of the world has not done its homework—as the minister seemed to suggest— that could mean catastrophe for British business.

Annabel Goldie asked whether we face catastrophic failure. My reply would be that we can be greatly assured by the fact that the Government is prepared to accept the buck; if it is prepared to accept the buck, it must be pretty sure that no real problems are lurking around the corner.

On a more serious note, we must first consider some of the public services such as the health,

fire, police and ambulance services, not forgetting—I see that Angus MacKay is here—the Prison Service. The Government must offer guarantees on those areas. All those services are signalling blue lights to represent a symbol of confidence. I welcome the fact that blue was chosen as the colour that would give confidence and signify that all was well. That was surely not by chance, but simply because blue is the Conservative colour and we all recognise that Conservatives are always well prepared and organised. I suspect that there might be some division on that view, but this debate could do with a bit of contention. Perhaps that will do the trick.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1769E16P282C711385", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27033, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 129.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 129.0, "ID": 27033, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Smith, Elaine", "ID": 1769, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Coatbridge and Chryston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Smith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Elaine Smith (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 148.0, "ContributionID": 711385, "EditedText": "Like most of my colleagues, I welcome the minister's statement on this important issue. I am not an information technology expert and am just getting familiar with my laptop and with e- mail, which is becoming more popular by the day, so, as members can imagine, I found the concept of the year 2000 bug somewhat confusing. However, when I was told that some systems may not recognise 1 January 2000 or, as the year 2000 is a leap year, miss out 29 February entirely, even I could appreciate the complexities. Although I might be delighted to get a break from the dreaded e-mail, there are obviously serious ramifications for vital services and our everyday lives. Whatever services we access, a computer or electronic system is likely to have been involved, most of which will use a year date system. Such implications exist across the public and private sectors, but it would take more than a short speech to consider all of them, so I will focus on local government. Councils provide a wide range of services to the public, so the impact of IT system failure as a result of the millennium bug would be far-reaching and immediate. Some of our most vulnerable citizens depend heavily on council services and could experience serious difficulties if any major problems were to occur in, for example, care in the community and the payment of benefits. Systems that could be affected include community alarm systems in sheltered homes and lift-monitoring systems in high-rise flats. Councils also have a general duty of care to the public and are required by statute to develop and maintain civil emergency plans. Those plans are of particular importance now and must be ready to react efficiently and effectively to any possible occurrences. Due to the serious implications of any system failure in local government services, preparations for 2000 began in May 1997. Auditors have monitored councils' preparations since then. In July, Don Cruickshank, chairperson of Action 2000, expressed concern that two sectors were still reporting a percentage of red, which meant that there was a residual risk to the aim of \"no material disruption to UK infrastructure due to the Millennium bug\". One of those sectors was local government.To their credit, councils reacted positively to the matters that were identified as requiring action. The Accounts Commission's most recent review showed that councils had made considerable progress over the summer. As we have heard, all 32 councils are now blue, which means that the assessment has identified no risk of material disruption to the infrastructure. It must be recognised that that progress is not the result of a few months' effort; it is the culmination of councils' work over a much longer period, with the assistance of the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities. It shows that councils have acted on public commitments made by their leaders earlier this year to take effective action to beat the bug. Credit must be given to council staff for their hard work, dedication and professionalism. However, there is no room for complacency. Progress to date must be sustained to ensure that there is no disruption to vital public services. Councils need to continue with their excellent efforts up to and beyond the new year. As has been said, the threat of the bug will not disappear then. There have been significant costs for councils,which the Executive has recognised and to which it has allocated an additional £10 million. It is also funding specialist units in COSLA to provide advice and assistance. I congratulate the Executive on that, but urge it to consider the actual costs for councils after audit, with a mind to revisiting the settlement if necessary. Given the pervasiveness of computers throughout society, we cannot assume that nothing will go wrong, but the strenuous efforts made by local government and other public bodies and organisations have, no doubt, corrected the majority of potential problems. Furthermore, as the minister said, achieving blue status has required rigorous contingency planning to anticipate every conceivable failure. I believe that the public can have confidence that, in the words of the Prime Minister, \"there will be no material disruption to essential public services due to the Millennium Bug as we go through the Millennium date change\".", "EditedTextHTML": "Like most of my colleagues, I welcome the minister's statement on this important issue.

I am not an information technology expert and am just getting familiar with my laptop and with e- mail, which is becoming more popular by the day, so, as members can imagine, I found the concept of the year 2000 bug somewhat confusing. However, when I was told that some systems may not recognise 1 January 2000 or, as the year 2000 is a leap year, miss out 29 February entirely, even I could appreciate the complexities.

Although I might be delighted to get a break from the dreaded e-mail, there are obviously serious ramifications for vital services and our everyday lives. Whatever services we access, a computer or electronic system is likely to have been involved, most of which will use a year date system.

Such implications exist across the public and private sectors, but it would take more than a short speech to consider all of them, so I will focus on local government. Councils provide a wide range of services to the public, so the impact of IT system failure as a result of the millennium bug would be far-reaching and immediate.

Some of our most vulnerable citizens depend heavily on council services and could experience serious difficulties if any major problems were to occur in, for example, care in the community and the payment of benefits. Systems that could be affected include community alarm systems in sheltered homes and lift-monitoring systems in high-rise flats.

Councils also have a general duty of care to the public and are required by statute to develop and maintain civil emergency plans. Those plans are of particular importance now and must be ready to react efficiently and effectively to any possible occurrences.

Due to the serious implications of any system failure in local government services, preparations for 2000 began in May 1997. Auditors have monitored councils' preparations since then. In July, Don Cruickshank, chairperson of Action 2000, expressed concern that two sectors were still reporting a percentage of red, which meant that there was a residual risk to the aim of

\"no material disruption to UK infrastructure due to the Millennium bug\".

One of those sectors was local government.

To their credit, councils reacted positively to the matters that were identified as requiring action. The Accounts Commission's most recent review showed that councils had made considerable progress over the summer. As we have heard, all 32 councils are now blue, which means that the assessment has identified no risk of material disruption to the infrastructure.

It must be recognised that that progress is not the result of a few months' effort; it is the culmination of councils' work over a much longer period, with the assistance of the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities. It shows that councils have acted on public commitments made by their leaders earlier this year to take effective action to beat the bug. Credit must be given to council staff for their hard work, dedication and professionalism. However, there is no room for complacency. Progress to date must be sustained to ensure that there is no disruption to vital public services. Councils need to continue with their excellent efforts up to and beyond the new year. As has been said, the threat of the bug will not disappear then.

There have been significant costs for councils,

which the Executive has recognised and to which it has allocated an additional £10 million. It is also funding specialist units in COSLA to provide advice and assistance. I congratulate the Executive on that, but urge it to consider the actual costs for councils after audit, with a mind to revisiting the settlement if necessary.

Given the pervasiveness of computers throughout society, we cannot assume that nothing will go wrong, but the strenuous efforts made by local government and other public bodies and organisations have, no doubt, corrected the majority of potential problems. Furthermore, as the minister said, achieving blue status has required rigorous contingency planning to anticipate every conceivable failure.

I believe that the public can have confidence that, in the words of the Prime Minister,

\"there will be no material disruption to essential public services due to the Millennium Bug as we go through the Millennium date change\".

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1865E219P509C711386", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27033, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 129.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 129.0, "ID": 27033, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "White, Sandra", "ID": 1865, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sandra White", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Sandra White (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 151.0, "ContributionID": 711386, "EditedText": "I confess that, when I first heard of the millennium bug, I knew nothing about it and was as confused as Elaine Smith was. As a responsible and also nosy person, I decided to find out as much as possible. The Government leaflet has some astounding things in it—tips such as ensuring rubbish is out on time and taking a torch abroad as some countries do not have lighting at night. One of the most frightening issues, which has not been touched on in this debate, is about Trident, the destructive nuclear missile on Scotland's shores. I tried to find out as much as possible about that and I would like the minister to answer these points. The first is about the technology used in Trident. We know that the problem with nuclear weapons communications systems is made more difficult because it utilises millions of \"embedded systems\", that is, lots of little microchips and microprocessors that have been recycled. \"These embedded chips are a particular problem for the military. In order to keep the costs down the military have used ‘commercial-off-the-shelf' chips (COTS) that are generic and may have time and/or date functions embedded within them\". That is a particular worry.\"In addition there is no general method for assessing Y2K compliance of software, chips or microprocessors therefore every system must be checked line by line and chip by chip in order to ensure compliance\". That will be a mammoth task.I again quote from the facts and figures I have gathered. \"As of January this year only ten out of one hundred and twenty-five NATO Mission Critical Systems were thought to be Y2K compliant. Of the rest, 29 were not compliant, 4 were under investigation and of the remaining 82 nothing was known.\" That is very worrying. I would like answers on that.There is also an issue of staff availability. We know that the programme has slipped from a target date of January 1999 to December 1999. That is worrying. Again I quote: \"A ‘Deterrent Millennium Task Group' was established to ensure the British Trident system is Y2K compliant but the MoD are not able to say how many people are working on the issue or how much it will cost because there ‘is no separately identifiable central record'. The job of the Deterrent Task Group is to check ‘the missile, the warhead, fire control, navigation, targeting' and other ‘associated shore based facilities'.\" In September 1998 the MOD review went on to state that \"the MoD might need to delay or stop activities/projects while attention and resources are focussed on Y2K\", that \"some systems might need to be abandoned in the short term pending resolution of the problem\" and that \"Shortage of skilled in-house staff is being identified as a potential risk to the programme in some areas\". Taskforce 2000 described the Ministry of Defence as being one of nine high-risk departments. The MOD has admitted that the findings of the report are correct. \"Taskforce 2000 have correctly recognised the scale of the problem facing the Ministry of Defence and the capability of our programme managers.\" That refers to staff shortages, and I would like the minister to comment on that matter. Let us look at possible consequences. It is extremely unlikely that a missile will be launched. I am not saying that anything like that could happen, but we could have a situation similar to one that has already arisen, which I will tell members about. In 1993, the North American Aerospace Defence Command—NORAD—simulated a test out of curiosity. Technicians rolled the dates up to 1 January 2000 and the result was a total system blackout. That is a fact. I do not wish to scaremonger, but this is an important debate and that story is relevant. Trident is sitting on our shores, yet neither the minister nor anyone else has commented on the potential effects that the date change could have. I would like some answers from the minister.", "EditedTextHTML": "I confess that, when I first heard of the millennium bug, I knew nothing about it and was as confused as Elaine Smith was. As a responsible and also nosy person, I decided to find out as much as possible. The Government leaflet has some astounding things in it—tips such as ensuring rubbish is out on time and taking a torch abroad as some countries do not have lighting at night.

One of the most frightening issues, which has not been touched on in this debate, is about Trident, the destructive nuclear missile on Scotland's shores. I tried to find out as much as possible about that and I would like the minister to answer these points.

The first is about the technology used in Trident. We know that the problem with nuclear weapons communications systems is made more difficult because it utilises millions of \"embedded systems\", that is, lots of little microchips and microprocessors that have been recycled.

\"These embedded chips are a particular problem for the military. In order to keep the costs down the military have used ‘commercial-off-the-shelf' chips (COTS) that are generic and may have time and/or date functions embedded within them\".

That is a particular worry.

\"In addition there is no general method for assessing Y2K compliance of software, chips or microprocessors therefore every system must be checked line by line and chip by chip in order to ensure compliance\".

That will be a mammoth task.

I again quote from the facts and figures I have gathered.

\"As of January this year only ten out of one hundred and twenty-five NATO Mission Critical Systems were thought to be Y2K compliant. Of the rest, 29 were not compliant, 4 were under investigation and of the remaining 82 nothing was known.\"

That is very worrying. I would like answers on that.

There is also an issue of staff availability. We know that the programme has slipped from a target date of January 1999 to December 1999. That is worrying. Again I quote:

\"A ‘Deterrent Millennium Task Group' was established to ensure the British Trident system is Y2K compliant but the MoD are not able to say how many people are working on the issue or how much it will cost because there ‘is no separately identifiable central record'. The job of the Deterrent Task Group is to check ‘the missile, the warhead, fire control, navigation, targeting' and other ‘associated shore based facilities'.\"

In September 1998 the MOD review went on to state that

\"the MoD might need to delay or stop activities/projects while attention and resources are focussed on Y2K\", that

\"some systems might need to be abandoned in the short term pending resolution of the problem\" and that

\"Shortage of skilled in-house staff is being identified as a potential risk to the programme in some areas\".

Taskforce 2000 described the Ministry of Defence as being one of nine high-risk departments. The MOD has admitted that the findings of the report are correct.

\"Taskforce 2000 have correctly recognised the scale of the problem facing the Ministry of Defence and the capability of our programme managers.\"

That refers to staff shortages, and I would like the minister to comment on that matter.

Let us look at possible consequences. It is extremely unlikely that a missile will be launched. I am not saying that anything like that could happen, but we could have a situation similar to one that has already arisen, which I will tell members about.

In 1993, the North American Aerospace Defence Command—NORAD—simulated a test out of curiosity. Technicians rolled the dates up to 1 January 2000 and the result was a total system blackout. That is a fact. I do not wish to scaremonger, but this is an important debate and that story is relevant. Trident is sitting on our shores, yet neither the minister nor anyone else has commented on the potential effects that the date change could have. I would like some answers from the minister.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2068E171P304C711387", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27033, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 129.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 129.0, "ID": 27033, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stone, Jamie", "ID": 2068, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie Stone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 154.0, "ContributionID": 711387, "EditedText": "I note that I address a crowded chamber. Last Tuesday, I did not go to my parliamentary party meeting, so members can imagine the great pleasure I felt when I found that I had been chosen to wind up for my party in this debate. I am not a huge expert in information technology. The millennium bug will not bother me because I live on a croft in the Highlands. I shall be stocked up with peat and whisky, and the lights go out anyway because the wind pulls the power cables down practically every year. We are prepared for such problems. On behalf of my party, I thank Henry McLeish, his team and his civil servants for a thorough presentation. I am impressed that Mr McLeish has offered to share information with those of us who have expressed concerns. It is correct that we have a three-hour debate on this matter. Notwithstanding the wise remarks that were made by the SNP, there has been a good deal of scaremongering on this issue, and we have a responsibility to keep that under control. As an example, I note from a recent news headline that \"Japan advises stockpiling food for Y2K\".The report continued:\"Prime Minister Keizo Obuchi said that while essential institutions appear to have completed preparations to prevent any widespread confusion from taking place over the New Year, people should take precautions in any event since there ‘may be small problems', Kyodo news agency reported. These precautions would include stockpiling food supplies as well as checking balances in bank accounts\" and so on. I am not sure that that was a responsible action for the prime minister of Japan to take. I am not privy to his reasons for doing it. I am sorry that Miss Goldie is not with us because I must address some of her remarks. Perhaps her colleagues can respond on her behalf. When she said that it was wrong to have this debate and suggested that we were sidelining other important issues, she was wrong. This issue is hugely important. It affects everyone and every service so we are sending out the right note to Scotland by taking the time to discuss the issue today. I wish to put one question to Miss Goldie. Perhaps Jamie McGrigor can put it to her. How many subject debates has Annabel's party requested in the Parliamentary Bureau? Mr McCabe informs me that the answer is a nice round figure; therefore, while I admire Annabel's adroitness in hanging a good soundbite on a shoogly peg, we should stick to the facts.", "EditedTextHTML": "I note that I address a crowded chamber. Last Tuesday, I did not go to my parliamentary party meeting, so members can imagine the great pleasure I felt when I found that I had been chosen to wind up for my party in this debate.

I am not a huge expert in information technology. The millennium bug will not bother me because I live on a croft in the Highlands. I shall be stocked up with peat and whisky, and the lights go out anyway because the wind pulls the power cables down practically every year. We are prepared for such problems.

On behalf of my party, I thank Henry McLeish, his team and his civil servants for a thorough presentation. I am impressed that Mr McLeish has offered to share information with those of us who have expressed concerns. It is correct that we have a three-hour debate on this matter. Notwithstanding the wise remarks that were made by the SNP, there has been a good deal of scaremongering on this issue, and we have a responsibility to keep that under control.

As an example, I note from a recent news headline that

\"Japan advises stockpiling food for Y2K\".

The report continued:

\"Prime Minister Keizo Obuchi said that while essential institutions appear to have completed preparations to prevent any widespread confusion from taking place over the New Year, people should take precautions in any event since there ‘may be small problems', Kyodo news agency reported. These precautions would include stockpiling food supplies as well as checking balances in bank accounts\" and so on. I am not sure that that was a responsible action for the prime minister of Japan to take. I am not privy to his reasons for doing it.

I am sorry that Miss Goldie is not with us because I must address some of her remarks. Perhaps her colleagues can respond on her behalf. When she said that it was wrong to have this debate and suggested that we were sidelining other important issues, she was wrong. This issue is hugely important. It affects everyone and every service so we are sending out the right note to Scotland by taking the time to discuss the issue today.

I wish to put one question to Miss Goldie. Perhaps Jamie McGrigor can put it to her. How many subject debates has Annabel's party requested in the Parliamentary Bureau? Mr McCabe informs me that the answer is a nice round figure; therefore, while I admire Annabel's adroitness in hanging a good soundbite on a shoogly peg, we should stick to the facts.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2068E171P304C711389", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27033, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 129.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 129.0, "ID": 27033, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stone, Jamie", "ID": 2068, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie Stone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Stone: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 158.0, "ContributionID": 711389, "EditedText": "Fergus Ewing should put that question to Mr McCabe. I thought that Mr Gallie's contribution was a positive one. However, I do not quite understand his logic in linking the privatisation of companies to being ready for the year 2000. The point made by Andy Kerr was typical of what has been a good debate, with measured and thoughtful speeches from all parties in the chamber. That demonstrates the seriousness with which MSPs from every political party view the issue. My colleague George Lyon referred to the problem of small and medium enterprises. I have been sitting here thinking about this issue, in particular about my brother who runs a small fruit and vegetable business in the north. I wonder whether he has done anything about his computer and is ready for the millennium. I think about him and the other little businesses that we all know and wonder how ready they are and whether they realise that they must get moving. I hope that the \"Last Chance Guide\" will encourage people to do so. That leads me to the point that Henry McLeish made, which is that we, the 129 MSPs, certainly have a role. Between now and the millennium, we must go out and advise and help in our constituencies. That is one of the strengths of what Henry has suggested to us. We, the Scottish Parliament, can make a difference. I believe that we are prepared. We will have to roll up our sleeves as there is still work to do, but we have done a good job. It was summed up nicely for me this morning by a cab driver. I am using the private-eye technique of asking advice from cabbies. The cabbie said to me, \"Are you an MSP?\" and I said that I was. He asked, \"What are you talking about today?\" I told him, \"I have this tremendously exciting debate about the year 2000.\" He said \"Och, the millennium is rubbish\", although he used slightly stronger language than that. He then said, \"Your computers will all work on the day. It will all be fine. I don't believe all those people who are putting around scare stories.\" That is the message that we should put out to the public. We have worked hard and there is more to be done, but it will be all right on the night. I wish Mr McLeish a happy new year in advance. I hope that he will encourage Mr Lyon to join him in the bunker—I do not want to call it that; it is the control centre. On the Gaelic issue that is concerning Fergus, I suggest that John Munro can parry any Gaelic questions on the night.", "EditedTextHTML": "Fergus Ewing should put that question to Mr McCabe.

I thought that Mr Gallie's contribution was a positive one. However, I do not quite understand his logic in linking the privatisation of companies to being ready for the year 2000.

The point made by Andy Kerr was typical of what has been a good debate, with measured and thoughtful speeches from all parties in the chamber. That demonstrates the seriousness with which MSPs from every political party view the issue.

My colleague George Lyon referred to the problem of small and medium enterprises. I have been sitting here thinking about this issue, in particular about my brother who runs a small fruit and vegetable business in the north. I wonder whether he has done anything about his computer and is ready for the millennium. I think about him and the other little businesses that we all know and wonder how ready they are and whether they realise that they must get moving. I hope that the \"Last Chance Guide\" will encourage people to do so.

That leads me to the point that Henry McLeish made, which is that we, the 129 MSPs, certainly have a role. Between now and the millennium, we must go out and advise and help in our constituencies. That is one of the strengths of what Henry has suggested to us. We, the Scottish Parliament, can make a difference. I believe that we are prepared. We will have to roll up our sleeves as there is still work to do, but we have done a good job. It was summed up nicely for me this morning by a cab driver. I am using the private-eye technique of asking advice from cabbies.

The cabbie said to me, \"Are you an MSP?\" and I said that I was. He asked, \"What are you talking about today?\" I told him, \"I have this tremendously exciting debate about the year 2000.\" He said \"Och, the millennium is rubbish\", although he used slightly stronger language than that. He then said, \"Your computers will all work on the day. It will all be fine. I don't believe all those people who are putting around scare stories.\" That is the message that we should put out to the public. We have worked hard and there is more to be done, but it will be all right on the night.

I wish Mr McLeish a happy new year in advance. I hope that he will encourage Mr Lyon to join him

in the bunker—I do not want to call it that; it is the control centre. On the Gaelic issue that is concerning Fergus, I suggest that John Munro can parry any Gaelic questions on the night.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C711401", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27033, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 129.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 129.0, "ID": 27033, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Richard Simpson (Ochil) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 184.0, "ContributionID": 711401, "EditedText": "Will Fergus Ewing acknowledge that 800,000 tickets for the millennium dome have been sold? The festival of Britain, in 1951, was one of the most profitable enterprises ever undertaken. He should wait to see whether the millennium dome also turns out to be highly profitable as a showcase of Britain.", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Fergus Ewing acknowledge that 800,000 tickets for the millennium dome have been sold? The festival of Britain, in 1951, was one of the most profitable enterprises ever undertaken. He should wait to see whether the millennium dome also turns out to be highly profitable as a showcase of Britain.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2105E44P74C711390", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27033, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 129.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 129.0, "ID": 27033, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harding, Mr Keith", "ID": 2105, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Harding", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Keith Harding (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 161.0, "ContributionID": 711390, "EditedText": "Like other members this morning, I welcome the statement. I will go a little further and say that I applaud the Executive for the manner in which it has addressed this issue. Millennium bug is a catchy phrase but it is misleading. It refers to a computer problem that is neither a bug nor anything to do with the millennium. The problem is caused by the calendar moving into a new century, not into a new thousand-year cycle. If computers had been invented 100 years ago, we would have had this problem in 1900. Millennium moaners—I am pleased to say that we have not had many in the chamber this morning—have supporting evidence for their gloomy predictions that society will collapse because some computers will misunderstand the date in 2000. Senator Robert Bennett hit the right note when he advised citizens of the United States to prepare for the millennium in the same way as they would prepare for a hurricane. That means that we can expect short-term and isolated power cuts, delayed deliveries and temporary shortages, but not the end of the world. Computer systems will not break down as soon as 2000 arrives. Instead, problems are more likely to surface when everyone is back at work and computers are used in earnest. The most common failures will be with security alarms, door locks, lifts, fire alarms, car park barriers and other systems with computer chips embedded in them. The sheer number of embedded controllers makes it impossible to identify and fix them all before the end of the year, so problems are inevitable but will not be insuperable. I understand that China Airlines' top executives have been encouraged to fly at midnight on 31 December. In view of the experience of Mr Reid, the Deputy Presiding Officer, perhaps he would like to test the parliamentary lifts. Fortunately, the millennium bug has not arrived unannounced and those responsible for running safety-critical computer systems have had time to test those and make corrections. I am reassured by today's statement. I would particularly like to praise the staff of the health service and local government on achieving blue coding categories. I will now respond to Jamie Stone's criticism of Annabel Goldie. She was saying only that she does not feel that parliamentary time is being used properly. I trust that the Scottish Executive will take the opportunity to make a new year's resolution to address the issues that the people of Scotland elected us to tackle: health, education and housing, to name but a few.", "EditedTextHTML": "Like other members this morning, I welcome the statement. I will go a little further and say that I applaud the Executive for the manner in which it has addressed this issue.

Millennium bug is a catchy phrase but it is misleading. It refers to a computer problem that is neither a bug nor anything to do with the millennium. The problem is caused by the calendar moving into a new century, not into a new thousand-year cycle. If computers had been invented 100 years ago, we would have had this problem in 1900.

Millennium moaners—I am pleased to say that we have not had many in the chamber this morning—have supporting evidence for their gloomy predictions that society will collapse because some computers will misunderstand the date in 2000. Senator Robert Bennett hit the right note when he advised citizens of the United States to prepare for the millennium in the same way as they would prepare for a hurricane. That means that we can expect short-term and isolated power cuts, delayed deliveries and temporary shortages, but not the end of the world.

Computer systems will not break down as soon as 2000 arrives. Instead, problems are more likely to surface when everyone is back at work and computers are used in earnest. The most common failures will be with security alarms, door locks, lifts, fire alarms, car park barriers and other systems with computer chips embedded in them. The sheer number of embedded controllers makes it impossible to identify and fix them all before the end of the year, so problems are inevitable but will not be insuperable.

I understand that China Airlines' top executives have been encouraged to fly at midnight on 31 December. In view of the experience of Mr Reid, the Deputy Presiding Officer, perhaps he would like to test the parliamentary lifts.

Fortunately, the millennium bug has not arrived unannounced and those responsible for running safety-critical computer systems have had time to test those and make corrections. I am reassured by today's statement. I would particularly like to praise the staff of the health service and local government on achieving blue coding categories.

I will now respond to Jamie Stone's criticism of Annabel Goldie. She was saying only that she does not feel that parliamentary time is being used properly. I trust that the Scottish Executive will take the opportunity to make a new year's resolution to address the issues that the people of Scotland elected us to tackle: health, education and housing, to name but a few.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2068E171P304C711391", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27033, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 129.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 129.0, "ID": 27033, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stone, Jamie", "ID": 2068, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie Stone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Stone: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 163.0, "ContributionID": 711391, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2068E171P304C711393", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27033, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 129.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 129.0, "ID": 27033, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stone, Jamie", "ID": 2068, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie Stone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Stone: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 167.0, "ContributionID": 711393, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C711395", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27033, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 129.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 129.0, "ID": 27033, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Patricia Ferguson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 171.0, "ContributionID": 711395, "EditedText": "I call Fergus Ewing to wind up on behalf of the Scottish National party.", "EditedTextHTML": "I call Fergus Ewing to wind up on behalf of the Scottish National party.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C711397", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27033, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 129.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 129.0, "ID": 27033, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Brian Monteith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 176.0, "ContributionID": 711397, "EditedText": "Does the member agree that, while this debate is important, the debate is misnamed because the next millennium will not begin on 1 January 2000 but on 1 January 2001?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the member agree that, while this debate is important, the debate is misnamed because the next millennium will not begin on 1 January 2000 but on 1 January 2001?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C711411", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27033, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 129.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 129.0, "ID": 27033, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Angus MacKay: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 205.0, "ContributionID": 711411, "EditedText": "The categorical nature of my response should have set everyone's mind at rest on the specific questions that had been raised. I would be more than happy to write to Nicola Sturgeon about the details of how those problems are now being addressed. I stress that those concerns have now been addressed in full. A question was raised about the national health service. A great deal of information is available, and I would be happy to arrange to provide written answers to the specific points raised by Mr Hamilton. The Prime Minister's adviser on year 2000 issues has discussed the preparations for Y2K compliance with the Scottish Executive and the NHS in Scotland on two occasions. He was so impressed with the thoroughness of those preparations that he recommended that the Scottish Executive should be a model for best practice in the UK. Again, I hope that that directly addresses the concerns that have been raised, but I undertake to communicate with Mr Hamilton on that specific point.", "EditedTextHTML": "The categorical nature of my response should have set everyone's mind at rest on the specific questions that had been raised. I would be more than happy to write to Nicola Sturgeon about the details of how those problems are now being addressed. I stress that those concerns have now been addressed in full.

A question was raised about the national health service. A great deal of information is available, and I would be happy to arrange to provide written answers to the specific points raised by Mr Hamilton. The Prime Minister's adviser on year 2000 issues has discussed the preparations for Y2K compliance with the Scottish Executive and the NHS in Scotland on two occasions. He was so impressed with the thoroughness of those preparations that he recommended that the Scottish Executive should be a model for best practice in the UK. Again, I hope that that directly addresses the concerns that have been raised, but I undertake to communicate with Mr Hamilton on that specific point.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C711415", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27033, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 129.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 129.0, "ID": 27033, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Angus MacKay: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 213.0, "ContributionID": 711415, "EditedText": "It is fair to say that most of those organisations will have a range of in-house expertise. However, I will be more than happy to research the details and respond directly to Mr Swinney to assure him on that point. It is important—the public want to be assured that the assessors knew what they were doing when they were making the assessments. SNP members referred to the Territorial Army. The TA has been directly and heavily involved with local strategic working groups. There have been regular meetings at Army headquarters and Scottish Executive level, to ensure a proper dovetailing of preparations. The issue of military involvement has been extensively and exhaustively discussed at the civil contingencies committee at UK level. The representatives of the military bodies and that committee have given assurances that the Parliaments will be able to deal with all scenarios other than the most extreme ones that we are unable to foresee. The Army has given assurances that it will be able to assist the civil authorities in trying to cope with any circumstances that might arise as a result of the millennium date change.Blue, as the colour for clear preparedness, was used in preference to green so that it was not seen as meaning \"all go\". Blue indicates that, using all available data, and the results of the inspection, no risk has been identified. That does not mean that there will be no problems, which is an important distinction. However, work will continue up to and beyond 1 January. Private and public businesses have been asked to develop business continuity plans, and by and large they have succeeded. Those plans specifically aim to address the scenarios that might be unforeseen in the vetting of business-critical systems for a blue pass.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is fair to say that most of those organisations will have a range of in-house expertise. However, I will be more than happy to research the details and respond directly to Mr Swinney to assure him on that point. It is important—the public want to be assured that the assessors knew what they were doing when they were making the assessments.

SNP members referred to the Territorial Army. The TA has been directly and heavily involved with local strategic working groups. There have been regular meetings at Army headquarters and Scottish Executive level, to ensure a proper dovetailing of preparations. The issue of military involvement has been extensively and exhaustively discussed at the civil contingencies committee at UK level. The representatives of the military bodies and that committee have given assurances that the Parliaments will be able to deal with all scenarios other than the most extreme ones that we are unable to foresee. The Army has given assurances that it will be able to assist the civil authorities in trying to cope with any circumstances that might arise as a result of the

millennium date change.

Blue, as the colour for clear preparedness, was used in preference to green so that it was not seen as meaning \"all go\". Blue indicates that, using all available data, and the results of the inspection, no risk has been identified. That does not mean that there will be no problems, which is an important distinction. However, work will continue up to and beyond 1 January. Private and public businesses have been asked to develop business continuity plans, and by and large they have succeeded. Those plans specifically aim to address the scenarios that might be unforeseen in the vetting of business-critical systems for a blue pass.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711425", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27034, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 231.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 231.0, "ID": 27034, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 234.0, "ContributionID": 711425, "EditedText": "Motion moved,", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion moved,

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711428", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27034, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 231.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 231.0, "ID": 27034, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 237.0, "ContributionID": 711428, "EditedText": "2.30 pm Time for Reflection followed by Debate on an Executive motion on Childcare Strategy followed by Parliamentary Bureau motions", "EditedTextHTML": "2.30 pm Time for Reflection followed by Debate on an Executive motion on Childcare Strategy followed by Parliamentary Bureau motions

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711430", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27034, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 231.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 231.0, "ID": 27034, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 239.0, "ContributionID": 711430, "EditedText": "Thursday 18 November 1999", "EditedTextHTML": "Thursday 18 November 1999

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711432", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27034, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 231.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 231.0, "ID": 27034, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 241.0, "ContributionID": 711432, "EditedText": "2.30 pm Question Time 3.00 pm Open Question Time followed by, no later than 3.15 pm Debate on an Executive motion on Digital Scotland", "EditedTextHTML": "2.30 pm Question Time 3.00 pm Open Question Time followed by, no later than 3.15 pm Debate on an Executive motion on Digital Scotland

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711436", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27034, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 231.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 231.0, "ID": 27034, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 245.0, "ContributionID": 711436, "EditedText": "5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business", "EditedTextHTML": "5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711439", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27034, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 231.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 231.0, "ID": 27034, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 248.0, "ContributionID": 711439, "EditedText": "2.30 pm Question Time 3.00 pm Open Question Time followed by Ministerial Statement on Freedom of Information followed by, no later than 3.45 pm Debate on an Executive motion on Carers' Strategy", "EditedTextHTML": "2.30 pm Question Time 3.00 pm Open Question Time followed by Ministerial Statement on Freedom of Information followed by, no later than 3.45 pm Debate on an Executive motion on Carers' Strategy

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711444", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Subordinate Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27035, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 253.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 253.0, "ID": 27035, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 256.0, "ContributionID": 711444, "EditedText": "Motion moved,", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion moved,

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711448", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Subordinate Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27035, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 253.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 253.0, "ID": 27035, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 262.0, "ContributionID": 711448, "EditedText": "On resuming—", "EditedTextHTML": "On resuming—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1906E278P355C711450", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27036, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 265.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27037, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 266.0, "QuestionHeading": "Angus Hospitals", "QuestionHeadingID": 27038, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 267.0, "DisplayOrder": 267.0, "ID": 27038, "ParentID": 27037 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Welsh, Andrew", "ID": 1906, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Angus" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Welsh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "1. Mr Andrew Welsh (Angus) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 268.0, "ContributionID": 711450, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it is satisfied with the physical state of hospital buildings in Angus and what plans exist for their modernisation and replacement. (S1O-601) The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): The national health service estate in Angus is considerably older than the average in Scotland. That is one reason why the NHS in Tayside is working to design modern and high-quality acute services that will meet the needs of the population of Tayside now and in the future.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it is satisfied with the physical state of hospital buildings in Angus and what plans exist for their modernisation and replacement. (S1O-601) The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): The national health service estate in Angus is considerably older than the average in Scotland. That is one reason why the NHS in Tayside is working to design modern and high-quality acute services that will meet the needs of the population of Tayside now and in the future.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1906E278P355C711451", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27036, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 265.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27037, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 266.0, "QuestionHeading": "Angus Hospitals", "QuestionHeadingID": 27038, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 267.0, "DisplayOrder": 267.0, "ID": 27038, "ParentID": 27037 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Welsh, Andrew", "ID": 1906, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Angus" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Welsh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Welsh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 270.0, "ContributionID": 711451, "EditedText": "Will the minister ensure the production of a programme of new building and the modernisation of Angus hospitals as a matter of urgency? Will she state whether, in principle, she will allow the resources to do that?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister ensure the production of a programme of new building and the modernisation of Angus hospitals as a matter of urgency? Will she state whether, in principle, she will allow the resources to do that?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C711452", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27036, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 265.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27037, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 266.0, "QuestionHeading": "Angus Hospitals", "QuestionHeadingID": 27038, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 267.0, "DisplayOrder": 267.0, "ID": 27038, "ParentID": 27037 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 272.0, "ContributionID": 711452, "EditedText": "I congratulate Mr Welsh on his tenacity in questioning me weekly on this issue. I am absolutely determined to ensure that, both in Tayside and throughout Scotland, the process of local acute services reviews—which are on-going— will result in an improvement in services to the people those facilities serve, and that an appropriate balance is achieved between local access and quality of service. I stress that, although we are investing in new facilities—and I am sure that that will happen in Tayside—it is important to remember that services are not only about bricks and mortar. As we move into the 21st century, I shall ensure that quality services are provided in all the different ways.", "EditedTextHTML": "I congratulate Mr Welsh on his tenacity in questioning me weekly on this issue. I am absolutely determined to ensure that, both in Tayside and throughout Scotland, the process of local acute services reviews—which are on-going— will result in an improvement in services to the people those facilities serve, and that an appropriate balance is achieved between local access and quality of service. I stress that, although we are investing in new facilities—and I am sure that that will happen in Tayside—it is important to remember that services are not only about bricks and mortar. As we move into the 21st century, I shall ensure that quality services are provided in all the different ways.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2056E57P84C711457", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27036, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 265.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27037, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 266.0, "QuestionHeading": "Devolution", "QuestionHeadingID": 27040, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 283.0, "DisplayOrder": 283.0, "ID": 27040, "ParentID": 27037 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James", "ID": 2056, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "James Douglas-Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "3. Lord James Douglas-Hamilton (Lothians) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 284.0, "ContributionID": 711457, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive, further to the announcement by the Prime Minister on 25 October 1999 about the transfer of functions from the Secretary of State for Scotland to other ministers of the Crown, whether it or any Scottish public body was consulted on this transfer of functions. (S1O-569) The Minister for Parliament (Mr Tom McCabe): The allocation of functions in the UK Government is a matter for the Prime Minister. Where any transfer of function affects the responsibilities of the Scottish Executive, we would be consulted.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive, further to the announcement by the Prime Minister on 25 October 1999 about the transfer of functions from the Secretary of State for Scotland to other ministers of the Crown, whether it or any Scottish public body was consulted on this transfer of functions. (S1O-569) The Minister for Parliament (Mr Tom McCabe): The allocation of functions in the UK Government is a matter for the Prime Minister. Where any transfer of function affects the responsibilities of the Scottish Executive, we would be consulted.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2056E57P84C711458", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27036, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 265.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27037, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 266.0, "QuestionHeading": "Devolution", "QuestionHeadingID": 27040, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 283.0, "DisplayOrder": 283.0, "ID": 27040, "ParentID": 27037 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James", "ID": 2056, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "James Douglas-Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Lord James Douglas-Hamilton: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 286.0, "ContributionID": 711458, "EditedText": "Does the minister accept that the transfer of responsibility for telephone tapping has implications for the police service in Scotland? Will he accept that there is a strong case for the First Minister to be consulted on those matters and to be given his rightful place?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the minister accept that the transfer of responsibility for telephone tapping has implications for the police service in Scotland? Will he accept that there is a strong case for the First Minister to be consulted on those matters and to be given his rightful place?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1821E295P538C711470", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27036, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 265.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27037, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 266.0, "QuestionHeading": "Millan Commission", "QuestionHeadingID": 27043, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 310.0, "DisplayOrder": 310.0, "ID": 27043, "ParentID": 27037 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Mrs Margaret", "ID": 1821, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Moray" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 313.0, "ContributionID": 711470, "EditedText": "The extent of the response to the Millan commission is interesting. When will the initial report be published? Will there be a second round of consultation? What is the time scale for the completion of the commission's work, which will allow us to deal with important aspects of mental health legislation?", "EditedTextHTML": "The extent of the response to the Millan commission is interesting. When will the initial report be published? Will there be a second round of consultation? What is the time scale for the completion of the commission's work, which will allow us to deal with important aspects of mental health legislation?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2033E106P139C711471", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27036, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 265.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27037, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 266.0, "QuestionHeading": "Millan Commission", "QuestionHeadingID": 27043, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 310.0, "DisplayOrder": 310.0, "ID": 27043, "ParentID": 27037 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gray, Iain", "ID": 2033, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Pentlands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Iain Gray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Iain Gray: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 315.0, "ContributionID": 711471, "EditedText": "I acknowledge Mrs Ewing's continuing interest in this matter. I believe that it was in response to a parliamentary question that she asked in another Parliament that Mr Galbraith first announced the Millan commission. Clearly, the progress of the commission's work is its responsibility, but I am happy to report that 1,000 copies of the consultation document have been distributed. As I mentioned, a leaflet for users and carers has gone out. Various visits have been made to day-care services and psychiatric institutions and there are public seminars this month. The commission plans to produce a further consultation document early next year and we expect it to report to Scottish ministers in summer 2000.", "EditedTextHTML": "I acknowledge Mrs Ewing's continuing interest in this matter. I believe that it was in response to a parliamentary question that she asked in another Parliament that Mr Galbraith first announced the Millan commission.

Clearly, the progress of the commission's work is its responsibility, but I am happy to report that 1,000 copies of the consultation document have been distributed. As I mentioned, a leaflet for users and carers has gone out. Various visits have been made to day-care services and psychiatric institutions and there are public seminars this month. The commission plans to produce a further consultation document early next year and we expect it to report to Scottish ministers in summer 2000.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C711475", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27036, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 265.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27037, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 266.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Social Security(Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27045, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 324.0, "DisplayOrder": 324.0, "ID": 27045, "ParentID": 27037 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "8. Alex Neil (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 325.0, "ContributionID": 711475, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive how many times the First Minister has met the Secretary of State for Social Security since May 1999. (S1O-565) The First Minister (Donald Dewar): I have had no formal meeting with the secretary of state but I have kept in touch with him and discussed matters of contemporary interest on a number of occasions.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive how many times the First Minister has met the Secretary of State for Social Security since May 1999. (S1O-565) The First Minister (Donald Dewar): I have had no formal meeting with the secretary of state but I have kept in touch with him and discussed matters of contemporary interest on a number of occasions.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C711476", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27036, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 265.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27037, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 266.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Social Security(Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27045, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 324.0, "DisplayOrder": 324.0, "ID": 27045, "ParentID": 27037 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 327.0, "ContributionID": 711476, "EditedText": "As this is armistice day, will the First Minister agree that we should use this opportunity to express our gratitude to our pensioners for everything that they have done for our country? As a way of expressing that gratitude, will he make representations to the secretary of state on behalf of our pensioners and ask him to think again about the pittance of an increase—75p—that was announced on Tuesday? Will he point out to the secretary of state that our pensioners are paid far less than their German counterparts, whom they beat in the war, who get pensions of £181 a week?", "EditedTextHTML": "As this is armistice day, will the First Minister agree that we should use this opportunity to express our gratitude to our pensioners for everything that they have done for our country? As a way of expressing that gratitude, will he make

representations to the secretary of state on behalf of our pensioners and ask him to think again about the pittance of an increase—75p—that was announced on Tuesday? Will he point out to the secretary of state that our pensioners are paid far less than their German counterparts, whom they beat in the war, who get pensions of £181 a week?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711478", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27036, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 265.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27037, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 266.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Social Security(Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27045, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 324.0, "DisplayOrder": 324.0, "ID": 27045, "ParentID": 27037 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 331.0, "ContributionID": 711478, "EditedText": "That whole exchange was in danger of being out of order.", "EditedTextHTML": "That whole exchange was in danger of being out of order.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711482", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27036, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 265.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27037, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 266.0, "QuestionHeading": "Parliamentary Questions", "QuestionHeadingID": 27046, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 333.0, "DisplayOrder": 333.0, "ID": 27046, "ParentID": 27037 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 340.0, "ContributionID": 711482, "EditedText": "Shame.", "EditedTextHTML": "Shame.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2068E171P304C711483", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27036, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 265.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27037, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 266.0, "QuestionHeading": "Parliamentary Questions", "QuestionHeadingID": 27046, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 333.0, "DisplayOrder": 333.0, "ID": 27046, "ParentID": 27037 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stone, Jamie", "ID": 2068, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie Stone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Stone: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 342.0, "ContributionID": 711483, "EditedText": "I am not sure that I welcome those supportive remarks. I thank the minister for his robust and characteristic reply. Many questions are given a holding response and some of the questions remain outstanding after that for quite a long time. For instance, four weeks after a holding response there were 37 outstanding—", "EditedTextHTML": "I am not sure that I welcome those supportive remarks.

I thank the minister for his robust and characteristic reply. Many questions are given a holding response and some of the questions remain outstanding after that for quite a long time. For instance, four weeks after a holding response there were 37 outstanding—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2228E151P202C711486", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27036, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 265.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27037, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 266.0, "QuestionHeading": "Parliamentary Questions", "QuestionHeadingID": 27046, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 333.0, "DisplayOrder": 333.0, "ID": 27046, "ParentID": 27037 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McCabe, Tom", "ID": 2228, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Tom McCabe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McCabe: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 348.0, "ContributionID": 711486, "EditedText": "There is an on-going attempt to make more efficient use of resources. In that light, I urge members and their assistants to make full use of SPICe, the Scottish Executive website and the websites of executive agencies.", "EditedTextHTML": "There is an on-going attempt to make more efficient use of resources. In that light, I urge members and their assistants to make full use of SPICe, the Scottish Executive website and the websites of executive agencies.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C711487", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27036, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 265.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27037, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 266.0, "QuestionHeading": "Parliamentary Questions", "QuestionHeadingID": 27046, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 333.0, "DisplayOrder": 333.0, "ID": 27046, "ParentID": 27037 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 350.0, "ContributionID": 711487, "EditedText": "We are asking too many questions—is that the problem?", "EditedTextHTML": "We are asking too many questions—is that the problem?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1811E172P455C711489", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27036, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 265.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27037, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 266.0, "QuestionHeading": "Long-Term Care", "QuestionHeadingID": 27047, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 354.0, "DisplayOrder": 354.0, "ID": 27047, "ParentID": 27037 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ullrich, Kay", "ID": 1811, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kay Ullrich", "SpeakerDisplayName": "10. Kay Ullrich (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 355.0, "ContributionID": 711489, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive how many people in Scotland have been assessed as in need of long- term care and are currently in hospital awaiting placement in residential and nursing home care. (S1O-564) The Deputy Minister for Community Care (Iain Gray): The latest estimate is that in the 35,500 staffed NHS beds in Scotland there are 2,015 patients who have, for a variety of reasons, waited two or more days for discharge. Some, although not all of them, will be awaiting a care home placement.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive how many people in Scotland have been assessed as in need of long- term care and are currently in hospital awaiting placement in residential and nursing home care. (S1O-564) The Deputy Minister for Community Care (Iain Gray): The latest estimate is that in the 35,500 staffed NHS beds in Scotland there are 2,015 patients who have, for a variety of reasons, waited two or more days for discharge. Some, although not all of them, will be awaiting a care home placement.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2033E106P139C711491", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27036, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 265.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27037, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 266.0, "QuestionHeading": "Long-Term Care", "QuestionHeadingID": 27047, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 354.0, "DisplayOrder": 354.0, "ID": 27047, "ParentID": 27037 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gray, Iain", "ID": 2033, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Pentlands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Iain Gray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Iain Gray: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 359.0, "ContributionID": 711491, "EditedText": "I have given this answer before—the responsibility for resolving that problem in the short term lies with health boards and local authorities working together. Last Friday, the two health ministers met the most senior members of staff from every local authority and every health trust in Scotland, bar one, so that we could make exactly that point, among others—that it is they who must resolve the problem. There is a problem of information, however. There are 40 possible reasons for delayed discharge; the point under discussion is one of them. A pilot exercise is looking at ways of securing consistent, coherent data to enable us to find solutions to delayed discharge instead of placing blame for it.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have given this answer before—the responsibility for resolving that problem in the short term lies with health boards and local authorities working together. Last Friday, the two health ministers met the most senior members of staff from every local authority and every health trust in Scotland, bar one, so that we could make exactly that point, among others—that it is they who must resolve the problem.

There is a problem of information, however. There are 40 possible reasons for delayed discharge; the point under discussion is one of

them. A pilot exercise is looking at ways of securing consistent, coherent data to enable us to find solutions to delayed discharge instead of placing blame for it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711494", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27036, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 265.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27037, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 266.0, "QuestionHeading": "Information and Communications Technology", "QuestionHeadingID": 27048, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 361.0, "DisplayOrder": 361.0, "ID": 27048, "ParentID": 27037 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 366.0, "ContributionID": 711494, "EditedText": "A question please.", "EditedTextHTML": "A question please.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2167E79P155C711498", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27036, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 265.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27037, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 266.0, "QuestionHeading": "Information and Communications Technology", "QuestionHeadingID": 27048, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 361.0, "DisplayOrder": 361.0, "ID": 27048, "ParentID": 27037 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Peacock, Peter", "ID": 2167, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Peter Peacock", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Peter Peacock: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 374.0, "ContributionID": 711498, "EditedText": "I recognise this as an important issue. It is up to each local authority to make detailed arrangements in their area. Guidance issued by the Executive as part of the excellence fund in relation to the national grid for learning stresses the importance of technical support for computers in schools for the reason that Richard Lochhead raises. I am taking a particular interest in this matter and I know that, in the member's area, Moray Council and Angus Council have put services out on a managed-service basis and that Aberdeen has eight extra members of staff working on it. Efforts are being made, but I intend to keep the matter under review.", "EditedTextHTML": "I recognise this as an important issue. It is up to each local authority to make detailed arrangements in their area. Guidance issued by the Executive as part of the excellence fund in relation to the national grid for learning stresses the importance of technical support for computers in schools for the reason that Richard Lochhead raises. I am taking a particular interest in this matter and I know that, in the member's area, Moray Council and Angus Council have put services out on a managed-service basis and that Aberdeen has eight extra members of staff working on it. Efforts are being made, but I intend to keep the matter under review.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711504", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27036, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 265.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27037, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 266.0, "QuestionHeading": "Ministry of Defence Contracts", "QuestionHeadingID": 27049, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 376.0, "DisplayOrder": 376.0, "ID": 27049, "ParentID": 27037 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 387.0, "ContributionID": 711504, "EditedText": "If I call a member to ask a supplementary, that supplementary must be a question, not a statement or argument.", "EditedTextHTML": "If I call a member to ask a supplementary, that supplementary must be a question, not a statement or argument.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4826433+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2100E64P254C711507", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27036, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 265.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27037, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 266.0, "QuestionHeading": "Infectious Salmon Anaemia", "QuestionHeadingID": 27050, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 389.0, "DisplayOrder": 389.0, "ID": 27050, "ParentID": 27037 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Home Robertson, John", "ID": 2100, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Lothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "John Home Robertson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Home Robertson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 394.0, "ContributionID": 711507, "EditedText": "This is a serious issue. We fully appreciate the importance of 6,000 fish- farm jobs to some of the remotest locations on the west coast, in the north and on the islands of Scotland. Tavish Scott is right. The recent evidence of the identification of the virus on six farms, including some in his constituency, and the identification of the virus in some wild fish raises serious considerations. As he would expect, we are considering this matter urgently and we are working on options for a more flexible approach to the control of the disease. It would be better for all concerned if we could get rid of the disease. I expect to make a further announcement around the end of the month.", "EditedTextHTML": "This is a serious issue. We fully appreciate the importance of 6,000 fish- farm jobs to some of the remotest locations on the west coast, in the north and on the islands of Scotland. Tavish Scott is right. The recent evidence of the identification of the virus on six farms, including some in his constituency, and the identification of the virus in some wild fish raises serious considerations.

As he would expect, we are considering this matter urgently and we are working on options for a more flexible approach to the control of the disease. It would be better for all concerned if we could get rid of the disease. I expect to make a further announcement around the end of the month.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1837E108P186C711508", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27036, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 265.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27037, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 266.0, "QuestionHeading": "Prescription Charges", "QuestionHeadingID": 27051, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 396.0, "DisplayOrder": 396.0, "ID": 27051, "ParentID": 27037 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mulligan, Mary", "ID": 1837, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Linlithgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Mulligan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "14. Mrs Mary Mulligan (Linlithgow) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 397.0, "ContributionID": 711508, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it has any plans to extend the existing provision for exemption from prescription charges to include sufferers from life-threatening conditions such as cystic fibrosis and asthma. (S1O-599) The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): We have no current plans to do so.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it has any plans to extend the existing provision for exemption from prescription charges to include sufferers from life-threatening conditions such as cystic fibrosis and asthma. (S1O-599) The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): We have no current plans to do so.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1837E108P186C711509", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27036, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 265.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27037, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 266.0, "QuestionHeading": "Prescription Charges", "QuestionHeadingID": 27051, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 396.0, "DisplayOrder": 396.0, "ID": 27051, "ParentID": 27037 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mulligan, Mary", "ID": 1837, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Linlithgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Mulligan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Mulligan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 399.0, "ContributionID": 711509, "EditedText": "Is the minister aware that, when the exemptions were decided on, the drugs that are currently used to treat cystic fibrosis had not been developed, so the condition did not fit the criteria that were used? As the British Medical Association accepts, if the guidance were to be applied now, cystic fibrosis would meet the criteria. Moreover, the number of people who would be granted exemptions would be small.", "EditedTextHTML": "Is the minister aware that, when the exemptions were decided on, the drugs that are currently used to treat cystic fibrosis had not been developed, so the condition did not fit the criteria that were used? As the British Medical Association accepts, if the guidance were to be applied now, cystic fibrosis would meet the criteria. Moreover, the number of people who would be granted exemptions would be small.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2085E206P337C711512", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27036, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 265.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27037, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 266.0, "QuestionHeading": "Scallop Fishing", "QuestionHeadingID": 27052, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 403.0, "DisplayOrder": 403.0, "ID": 27052, "ParentID": 27037 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Munro, John Farquhar", "ID": 2085, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ross, Skye and Inverness West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Farquhar Munro", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Munro: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 406.0, "ContributionID": 711512, "EditedText": "I thank the minister for that reply. I am sure that he will appreciate that many of the scallop farmers are self-employed so do not qualify for state benefits. Because of the extended ban, they have suffered financial hardship to the point of bankruptcy. Will the minister and his colleagues in the Executive seriously consider lifting the ban, with immediate effect, on all scallop farms where the toxin levels recorded are below the permitted levels on two successive tests?", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the minister for that reply. I am sure that he will appreciate that many of the scallop farmers are self-employed so do not qualify for state benefits. Because of the extended ban, they have suffered financial hardship to the point of bankruptcy. Will the minister and his colleagues in the Executive seriously consider lifting the ban, with immediate effect, on all scallop farms where the toxin levels recorded are below the permitted levels on two successive tests?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1985E207P501C711517", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27036, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 265.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27037, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 266.0, "QuestionHeading": "Digital Television", "QuestionHeadingID": 27053, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 410.0, "DisplayOrder": 410.0, "ID": 27053, "ParentID": 27037 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hamilton, Mr Duncan", "ID": 1985, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Hamilton: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 417.0, "ContributionID": 711517, "EditedText": "Is the minister telling us, for the first time, that coverage in the Highlands and Islands will be the same as it is in every other part of the United Kingdom? If he is, that is a major announcement, which I welcome.", "EditedTextHTML": "Is the minister telling us, for the first time, that coverage in the Highlands and Islands will be the same as it is in every other part of the United Kingdom? If he is, that is a major announcement, which I welcome.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1823E145P193C711519", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27036, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 265.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27037, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 266.0, "QuestionHeading": "Health Boards", "QuestionHeadingID": 27054, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 421.0, "DisplayOrder": 421.0, "ID": 27054, "ParentID": 27037 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jamieson, Margaret", "ID": 1823, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Kilmarnock and Loudoun" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Jamieson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "17. Margaret Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 422.0, "ContributionID": 711519, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has to reconsider the geographical boundaries of health boards to take account of recent health reforms in Scotland. (S1O-556) The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): We have no current plans to reconsider the geographical boundaries of Scotland's health boards.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has to reconsider the geographical boundaries of health boards to take account of recent health reforms in Scotland. (S1O-556) The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): We have no current plans to reconsider the geographical boundaries of Scotland's health boards.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C711521", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27036, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 265.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27037, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 266.0, "QuestionHeading": "Health Boards", "QuestionHeadingID": 27054, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 421.0, "DisplayOrder": 421.0, "ID": 27054, "ParentID": 27037 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 426.0, "ContributionID": 711521, "EditedText": "I am happy to give MargaretJamieson that assurance. Now that there is a new structure in place in the national health service in Scotland—one based on collaboration rather than on the competition of the former internal market—I am keen that, along with those improvements, we should have the highest possible standards of accountability at a local level throughout the NHS.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am happy to give Margaret

Jamieson that assurance. Now that there is a new structure in place in the national health service in Scotland—one based on collaboration rather than on the competition of the former internal market—I am keen that, along with those improvements, we should have the highest possible standards of accountability at a local level throughout the NHS.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C711523", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27055, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 428.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27056, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 429.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meeting)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27057, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 430.0, "DisplayOrder": 430.0, "ID": 27057, "ParentID": 27056 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 433.0, "ContributionID": 711523, "EditedText": "In that case can the First Minister explain the speech he made this week in Haddington, which was reported as either warning his Liberal coalition partners to bow down on tuition fees or warning the Parliament's committees to bow down to ministers. What he says about his Liberal partners is a matter for the First Minister, but will he accept that the role of parliamentary committees is not to make life easy for ministers, but to hold the Scottish Executive to account on behalf of the people of Scotland?", "EditedTextHTML": "In that case can the First Minister explain the speech he made this week in Haddington, which was reported as either warning his Liberal coalition partners to bow down on tuition fees or warning the Parliament's committees to bow down to ministers. What he says about his Liberal partners is a matter for the First Minister, but will he accept that the role of parliamentary committees is not to make life easy for ministers, but to hold the Scottish Executive to account on behalf of the people of Scotland?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C711524", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27055, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 428.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27056, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 429.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meeting)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27057, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 430.0, "DisplayOrder": 430.0, "ID": 27057, "ParentID": 27056 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 435.0, "ContributionID": 711524, "EditedText": "I do not know whether Alex Salmond has had the advantage of reading my speech.", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not know whether Alex Salmond has had the advantage of reading my speech.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C711526", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27055, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 428.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27056, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 429.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meeting)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27057, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 430.0, "DisplayOrder": 430.0, "ID": 27057, "ParentID": 27056 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 439.0, "ContributionID": 711526, "EditedText": "I am delighted. In that case, he will know that it was a speech in which I went to considerable time and trouble to demonstrate the importance that I attach to the effective working of the committee system. It is one of the characteristics of this Parliament and a mark of the deliberate effort to alter the balance of power between legislature and executive. It is a very important opportunity, and one that this Parliament cannot afford to miss.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am delighted. In that case, he will know that it was a speech in which I went to considerable time and trouble to demonstrate the importance that I attach to the effective working of the committee system. It is one of the characteristics of this Parliament and a mark of the deliberate effort to alter the balance of power between legislature and executive. It is a very important opportunity, and one that this Parliament cannot afford to miss.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C711527", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27055, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 428.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27056, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 429.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meeting)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27057, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 430.0, "DisplayOrder": 430.0, "ID": 27057, "ParentID": 27056 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 441.0, "ContributionID": 711527, "EditedText": "The speech was interpreted as the First Minister expressing concern that some members of the Scottish Executive were finding life hot in front of committees. In that case, the solution might be to change the members of the Executive, rather than to change the committees. In his speech, the First Minister said that some would argue the House of Lords should be a revising chamber for this Parliament. Who would make the ridiculous suggestion that a chamber in which the only elected people are hereditary peers and the rest are Tony's cronies should be a revising chamber for this Parliament, which is elected by the people of Scotland?", "EditedTextHTML": "The speech was interpreted as the First Minister expressing concern that some members of the Scottish Executive were finding life hot in front of committees. In that case, the solution might be to change the members of the Executive, rather than to change the committees.

In his speech, the First Minister said that some would argue the House of Lords should be a revising chamber for this Parliament. Who would make the ridiculous suggestion that a chamber in which the only elected people are hereditary peers and the rest are Tony's cronies should be a revising chamber for this Parliament, which is elected by the people of Scotland?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C711529", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27055, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 428.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27056, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 429.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meeting)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27057, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 430.0, "DisplayOrder": 430.0, "ID": 27057, "ParentID": 27056 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 445.0, "ContributionID": 711529, "EditedText": "Let me follow that note of consensus by asking the First Minister to join me in wishing Craig Brown and his squad all the best for the coming home and away matches in the European championship. I am sure that that is a matter that will attract 129 per cent support from this Parliament and concerning which everyone in this Parliament can have enthusiasm for the concept of Scotland into Europe.", "EditedTextHTML": "Let me follow that note of consensus by asking the First Minister to join me in wishing Craig Brown and his squad all the best for the coming home and away matches in the European championship. I am sure that that is a matter that will attract 129 per cent support from this Parliament and concerning which everyone in this Parliament can have enthusiasm for the concept of Scotland into Europe.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C711530", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27055, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 428.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27056, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 429.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meeting)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27057, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 430.0, "DisplayOrder": 430.0, "ID": 27057, "ParentID": 27056 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 447.0, "ContributionID": 711530, "EditedText": "I notice that quite a competitive exercise has grown up around Saturday's game. Obviously Alex Salmond is delighted to make his little effort to be associated with what will, I hope, be a very successful game. Success for me, of course, would be the right result, and the right result would be a Scottish victory.", "EditedTextHTML": "I notice that quite a competitive exercise has grown up around Saturday's game. Obviously Alex Salmond is delighted to make his little effort to be associated with what will, I hope, be a very successful game. Success for me, of course, would be the right result, and the right result would be a Scottish victory.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C711533", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27055, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 428.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27056, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 429.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meeting)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27057, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 430.0, "DisplayOrder": 430.0, "ID": 27057, "ParentID": 27056 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "2. David McLetchie (Lothians) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 453.0, "ContributionID": 711533, "EditedText": "As I ask this question, it occurs to me that this appears to be the First Minister's groundhog day. To ask the Scottish Executive when the First Minister last met the Secretary of State for Scotland and what issues they discussed. (S1O579)", "EditedTextHTML": "As I ask this question, it occurs to me that this appears to be the First Minister's groundhog day.

To ask the Scottish Executive when the First Minister last met the Secretary of State for Scotland and what issues they discussed. (S1O579)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C711535", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27055, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 428.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27056, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 429.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meeting)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27057, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 430.0, "DisplayOrder": 430.0, "ID": 27057, "ParentID": 27056 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister (Donald Dewar): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 457.0, "ContributionID": 711535, "EditedText": "Sadly, Presiding Officer, you would not let me. I live in hope that Messrs McLetchie and Salmond will think of something else to ask me. The Secretary of State for Scotland and I discussed matters of common concern, Mr McLetchie.", "EditedTextHTML": "Sadly, Presiding Officer, you would not let me. I live in hope that Messrs McLetchie and Salmond will think of something else to ask me.

The Secretary of State for Scotland and I discussed matters of common concern, Mr McLetchie.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C711538", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27055, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 428.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27056, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 429.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meeting)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27057, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 430.0, "DisplayOrder": 430.0, "ID": 27057, "ParentID": 27056 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 463.0, "ContributionID": 711538, "EditedText": "We all want the French to lift the ban. Does the First Minister never stop to reflect that there can be no wonder that the French food standards agency has so little confidence in Scottish beef when the Scottish Executive is so worried about the safety of our product that it continues to uphold its ridiculous beef-on-the-bone ban? Although beef on the bone has been certified as fit for consumption by the Prime Minister in Downing street it is apparently not fit to be served when he comes north of the border to dine with the First Minister at Bute House.", "EditedTextHTML": "We all want the French to lift the ban. Does the First Minister never stop to reflect that there can be no wonder that the French food standards agency has so little confidence in Scottish beef when the Scottish Executive is so worried about the safety of our product that it continues to uphold its ridiculous beef-on-the-bone ban? Although beef on the bone has been certified as fit for consumption by the Prime Minister in Downing street it is apparently not fit to be served when he comes north of the border to dine with the First Minister at Bute House.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1850E185P354C711543", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27055, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 428.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27056, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 429.0, "QuestionHeading": "Local Government Act 1986", "QuestionHeadingID": 27058, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 27058, "ParentID": 27056 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Radcliffe, Nora", "ID": 1850, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Gordon" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nora Radcliffe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nora Radcliffe: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 474.0, "ContributionID": 711543, "EditedText": "I thank the minister for her reply. What is the Executive's intention in respect of the definition of nearest relative in the Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill? Will it be made clear that it is understood that recognition of unmarried partners includes unmarried partners in a long-term, committed, same-gender relationship?", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the minister for her reply. What is the Executive's intention in respect of the definition of nearest relative in the Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill? Will it be made clear that it is understood that recognition of unmarried partners includes unmarried partners in a long-term, committed, same-gender relationship?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1973E119P326C711558", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Temporary Sheriffs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27059, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 490.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 490.0, "ID": 27059, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gorrie, Donald", "ID": 1973, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Donald Gorrie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Donald Gorrie (Central Scotland) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 506.0, "ContributionID": 711558, "EditedText": "Will the minister examine the whole issue of temporary sheriffs? Society is increasingly being built on the policy of not giving people proper jobs, whether they be sheriffs, teachers, university lecturers or doctors. Will he strike a blow for a more civilised society by having more full-time sheriffs? Although I am sure that temporary sheriffs are very worthy ladies and gentlemen, by their very nature they must be less satisfactory than full-time sheriffs.", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister examine the whole issue of temporary sheriffs? Society is increasingly being built on the policy of not giving people proper jobs, whether they be sheriffs, teachers, university lecturers or doctors. Will he strike a blow for a more civilised society by having more full-time sheriffs? Although I am sure that temporary sheriffs are very worthy ladies and gentlemen, by their very nature they must be less satisfactory than full-time sheriffs.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C711561", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Temporary Sheriffs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27059, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 490.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 490.0, "ID": 27059, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 512.0, "ContributionID": 711561, "EditedText": "I cannot give the Parliament any accurate indication of the costs of today's decision. As I said in my statement, until we have fully considered the terms of the judgment, it will be impossible to determine just how many permanent sheriffs we will need. However, the cost of appointing permanent sheriffs will be somewhat offset by the lower daily payments to temporary sheriffs.", "EditedTextHTML": "I cannot give the Parliament any accurate indication of the costs of today's decision. As I said in my statement, until we have fully considered the terms of the judgment, it will be impossible to determine just how many permanent sheriffs we will need. However, the cost of appointing permanent sheriffs will be somewhat offset by the lower daily payments to temporary sheriffs.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C711568", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Temporary Sheriffs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27059, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 490.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 490.0, "ID": 27059, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bruce Crawford (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 526.0, "ContributionID": 711568, "EditedText": "I come at this matter from the perspective of someone who was formerly active as a justice of the peace. In view of the ruling on temporary sheriffs and, in particular, its impact on ECHR, does the Executive have any proposals to pass more summary criminal proceedings to the district courts? Given that the ruling could affect children's panels, what impact will the ruling have on the justices of the peace who sit in district courts throughout Scotland?", "EditedTextHTML": "I come at this matter from the perspective of someone who was formerly active as a justice of the peace. In view of the ruling on temporary sheriffs and, in particular, its impact on ECHR, does the Executive have any proposals to pass more summary criminal proceedings to the district courts? Given that the ruling could affect children's panels, what impact will the ruling have on the justices of the peace who sit in district courts throughout Scotland?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C711570", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Temporary Sheriffs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27059, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 490.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 490.0, "ID": 27059, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell (South of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 530.0, "ContributionID": 711570, "EditedText": "In the light of Mr Wallace's remarks about the inability to foresee things, it is my feeling that it is frequently not so much justice that is blind in Scotland, but the Minister for Justice and the Lord Advocate. The political point of today's ruling must surely be the policy that the Liberal Democrats at one time espoused, which I believe is even mentioned in the partnership agreement, on judicial appointments. The Scottish National party, as Mr Wallace knows, has outlined its policy of having a judicial appointments commission. The Administration should bring forward proposals for a truly independent judicial appointments commission as soon as possible. That would not only solve this problem, but would introduce a much needed new level of democracy into Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "In the light of Mr Wallace's remarks about the inability to foresee things, it is my feeling that it is frequently not so much justice that is blind in Scotland, but the Minister for Justice and the Lord Advocate. The political point of today's ruling must surely be the policy that the Liberal Democrats at one time espoused, which I believe is even mentioned in the partnership agreement, on judicial appointments. The Scottish National party, as Mr Wallace knows, has outlined its policy of having a judicial appointments commission. The

Administration should bring forward proposals for a truly independent judicial appointments commission as soon as possible. That would not only solve this problem, but would introduce a much needed new level of democracy into Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C711571", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Temporary Sheriffs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27059, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 490.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 490.0, "ID": 27059, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 532.0, "ContributionID": 711571, "EditedText": "I remind Mr Russell that it was not the appointments that the judges criticised, but the security of tenure. He is right, however, to point out that the partnership agreement refers to consultation on the making of judicial appointments, both to the shrieval bench and to the Supreme Court. The First Minister said in a speech at the Law Society conference in July this year that the Executive intends to introduce proposals for consultation before the end of the year. That remains our intention. We have said on many occasions that this Parliament should consult and hear the views of those who have some experience and interest in such matters. We intend to pursue that route of consultation towards a more open system of judicial appointment.", "EditedTextHTML": "I remind Mr Russell that it was not the appointments that the judges criticised, but the security of tenure. He is right, however, to point out that the partnership agreement refers to consultation on the making of judicial appointments, both to the shrieval bench and to the Supreme Court.

The First Minister said in a speech at the Law Society conference in July this year that the Executive intends to introduce proposals for consultation before the end of the year. That remains our intention. We have said on many occasions that this Parliament should consult and hear the views of those who have some experience and interest in such matters. We intend to pursue that route of consultation towards a more open system of judicial appointment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C711573", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Subordinate Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27060, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 536.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 536.0, "ID": 27060, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 537.0, "ContributionID": 711573, "EditedText": "The next item of business is a debate on motion S1M-228, in the name of Mr Jim Wallace, recommending that the Maximum Number of Judges (Scotland) Order 1999 be approved. Those who wish to speak in the debate should indicate now.", "EditedTextHTML": "The next item of business is a debate on motion S1M-228, in the name of Mr Jim Wallace, recommending that the Maximum Number of Judges (Scotland) Order 1999 be approved. Those who wish to speak in the debate should indicate now.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711607", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27061, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 608.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 608.0, "ID": 27061, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 614.0, "ContributionID": 711607, "EditedText": "The second question is, that motion SIM-228, in the name of Jim Wallace, recommending that the Maximum Number of Judges (Scotland) Order 1999 be approved, be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "The second question is, that motion SIM-228, in the name of Jim Wallace, recommending that the Maximum Number of Judges (Scotland) Order 1999 be approved, be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2234E7P20C711582", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Subordinate Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27060, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 536.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 536.0, "ID": 27060, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Aitken, Bill", "ID": 2234, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bill Aitken", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bill Aitken: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 560.0, "ContributionID": 711582, "EditedText": "Some of us have a difficulty with that argument, but I certainly agree that, historically, women have not been encouraged to follow that route. If the situation is now being corrected, we have no difficulty whatever with that, but we have a difficulty with people who are not the best applicants being appointed to posts on the basis of their gender. We cannot accept that situation. The Administration will find no dissent from the Conservatives on this matter. We recognise the need for more judges, we have flagged up a few potential problems and we hope that our concerns will be addressed in the months ahead.", "EditedTextHTML": "Some of us have a difficulty with that argument, but I certainly agree that, historically, women have not been encouraged to follow that route. If the situation is now being corrected, we have no difficulty whatever with that, but we have a difficulty with people who are not the best applicants being appointed to posts on the basis of their gender. We cannot accept that situation.

The Administration will find no dissent from the Conservatives on this matter. We recognise the need for more judges, we have flagged up a few potential problems and we hope that our concerns will be addressed in the months ahead.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2234E7P20C711585", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Subordinate Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27060, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 536.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 536.0, "ID": 27060, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Aitken, Bill", "ID": 2234, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bill Aitken", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bill Aitken: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 568.0, "ContributionID": 711585, "EditedText": "Does Mr McNulty believe in positive discrimination?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does Mr McNulty believe in positive discrimination?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1863E284P532C711587", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Subordinate Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27060, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 536.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 536.0, "ID": 27060, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Cunningham, Roseanna", "ID": 1863, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Perth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Roseanna Cunningham", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Roseanna Cunningham: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 572.0, "ContributionID": 711587, "EditedText": "Does Mr McNulty agree that men have been the beneficiaries of positive discrimination for centuries, if not millennia, and that those who argue against positive discrimination selectively choose to forget that small fact?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does Mr McNulty agree that men have been the beneficiaries of positive discrimination for centuries, if not millennia, and that those who argue against positive discrimination selectively choose to forget that small fact?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711604", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27061, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 608.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 608.0, "ID": 27061, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 610.0, "ContributionID": 711604, "EditedText": "The first question is, that motion S1M-257, in the name of Tom McCabe, on the approval of a statutory instrument, be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "The first question is, that motion S1M-257, in the name of Tom McCabe, on the approval of a statutory instrument, be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711592", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Subordinate Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27060, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 536.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 536.0, "ID": 27060, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Lord Advocate", "SpeakerName": "Andrew Hardie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Lord Advocate (Lord Hardie): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 586.0, "ContributionID": 711592, "EditedText": "I am grateful to Mike Russell for his confidence in me and in my ability to speak for as long as is necessary. On the management of business, the Minister for Parliament is here and it is a matter for the Parliamentary Bureau. It must be difficult to judge particular issues, but the minister will speak for himself on that matter. I welcome the support from every member who has spoken in the debate. It is a tribute to the judiciary in Scotland that all members from all parties have supported the need to give effect to the order. It is also a tribute to the judiciary in Scotland that we have had the request for the services of Lord Cullen in relation to Paddington. I accept the point made by Lord James Douglas- Hamilton and Ms Cunningham, that Lockerbie and the Lockerbie trial have put the judicial and criminal justice system on show throughout the world. I hope that at the end of the day everyone throughout the world will pay tribute to that system, which I am sure it will deserve. Ms Cunningham and Mr Gallie suggested that more than five judges might be appointed. I regret that it is not possible to amend the order to increase the number. In any event, the order was brought after discussions with the Lord President, and he identified his need as five. It may well be, as members have mentioned, that in due course the Lord President will bring other proposals to the Executive. Until that happens, I do not think that it would be appropriate to make any additional appointments.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful to Mike Russell for his confidence in me and in my ability to speak for as long as is necessary.

On the management of business, the Minister for Parliament is here and it is a matter for the Parliamentary Bureau. It must be difficult to judge particular issues, but the minister will speak for himself on that matter.

I welcome the support from every member who has spoken in the debate. It is a tribute to the judiciary in Scotland that all members from all parties have supported the need to give effect to the order. It is also a tribute to the judiciary in Scotland that we have had the request for the services of Lord Cullen in relation to Paddington. I accept the point made by Lord James Douglas- Hamilton and Ms Cunningham, that Lockerbie and the Lockerbie trial have put the judicial and criminal justice system on show throughout the world. I hope that at the end of the day everyone throughout the world will pay tribute to that system, which I am sure it will deserve.

Ms Cunningham and Mr Gallie suggested that more than five judges might be appointed. I regret that it is not possible to amend the order to increase the number. In any event, the order was brought after discussions with the Lord President, and he identified his need as five. It may well be, as members have mentioned, that in due course the Lord President will bring other proposals to the Executive. Until that happens, I do not think that it would be appropriate to make any additional appointments.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2228E151P202C711611", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pardon for Executed Soldiers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27062, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 618.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 618.0, "ID": 27062, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McCabe, Tom", "ID": 2228, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Tom McCabe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "5.30 pm, which will give us a few extra minutes. Would someone care to move that? The Minister for Parliament (Mr Tom McCabe): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 621.0, "ContributionID": 711611, "EditedText": "I move, That the debate be extended until 5.30 pm.", "EditedTextHTML": "I move,

That the debate be extended until 5.30 pm.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711612", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pardon for Executed Soldiers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27062, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 618.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 618.0, "ID": 27062, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 623.0, "ContributionID": 711612, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711597", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Subordinate Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27060, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 536.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 536.0, "ID": 27060, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 596.0, "ContributionID": 711597, "EditedText": "That concludes the debate on the order. I am grateful to the Lord Advocate. One can always tell those who are trained by being paid by the minute. Laughter.", "EditedTextHTML": "That concludes the debate on the order. I am grateful to the Lord Advocate. One can always tell those who are trained by being paid by the minute. [Laughter.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711614", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pardon for Executed Soldiers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27062, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 618.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 618.0, "ID": 27062, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 626.0, "ContributionID": 711614, "EditedText": "Motion debated,", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion debated,

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1768E72P274C711616", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pardon for Executed Soldiers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27062, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 618.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 618.0, "ID": 27062, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Murray, Elaine", "ID": 1768, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumfries" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Murray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Elaine Murray (Dumfries) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 629.0, "ContributionID": 711616, "EditedText": "I thank everyone who has supported this motion. I am particularly pleased by the genuine cross-party support that it has received. I also thank the media for their interest, and those members of the public who contacted me to offer their support. Our Parliament is not able to pardon the 39Scottish soldiers shot by their own side during the first world war. That is reserved to the Ministry of Defence, as is the matter of the other 268 members of the British empire forces who were similarly executed. What we can do is express our view, using the knowledge and understanding that we have gained over this century, not to re-write history, but to add the final chapter to the history of the 1914 to 1918 war. In doing so, we remember the terrible suffering endured by the young men who offered their lives in the protection not of our freedom and democracy, but of the economic interests of the British empire. I have been asked what can be achieved more than 80 years after the conflict. Those most immediately affected—the parents, siblings girlfriends, wives and children of those soldiers— are probably deceased by now. We cannot lessen their pain or comfort them with the restoration of their loved one's reputation. There are families of executed soldiers who continue to campaign to clear the names of their relatives, such as the niece of 22-year-old Private Bertie McCubbin, who was executed because he felt unable, owing to the physical effects of shelling, to carry out the duties demanded of him. We are not too late to bring comfort to those relatives. We are not too late to recognise that, during that war, the demands that our country exacted of its young soldiers—some little more than boys—were too much for some to endure. Let us remember the conditions under which the private soldier at the western front existed. It was a pointless, static conflict over strips of earth, which achieved nothing other than the slaughter of millions of young men from both sides. The soldiers were condemned to existence in hell— floundering in mud in the winter, baking in the summer, rats and parasites their constant companions, never knowing whether today's sunrise would be their last, without respite, week after week, month after month, year after ghastly year. The ordinary private soldiers in the trenches did not often, if ever, come home on leave. They were subjected to constant shelling— \"the monstrous anger of the guns\"referred to by the war poet, Wilfred Owen, in \"Anthem for Doomed Youth\". They knew that they would be ordered to run towards that anger, witnessing the deaths of countless comrades in the futile exercise. Imagine the horror of sharing accommodation with the remains of other men, of seeking shelter from enemy fire to find it already occupied by the rotting carcases of fallen soldiers. Whether volunteer or conscript, those soldiers cannot have had any notion of what they were to face when they signed up to serve their country. This was not the modern, familiar Europe that we know through our holidays and television travel programmes. France would have been as alien and foreign to them as, 50 years later, Vietnam was to the young American soldiers who fought there. Communications were poor—in addition to their personal discomforts, the soldiers would have been anxious about loved ones back home. The stress that the soldiers in the trenches—and their immediate superiors—suffered is difficult to imagine. That stress was physical and psychological, enduring and brutalising. We now recognise the effects of stress on the human body and psyche. Individuals who suffer traumatic events, over even a brief period, are now generally offered counselling and help towards recovering from the effects of their devastating experiences. There was no such knowledge at the beginning of the century. There were only vague references to something called shell-shock or loss of nerves— references that placed some blame on the individual, suggesting some weakness of character. Now, we know better. The argument may be made that the deserters endangered the lives of their comrades. Most of the men who were executed were not deserters— they went absent without leave, got lost, showed violence towards officers or injured themselves to avoid having to go over the top. Even those men who deserted during combat would hardly have endangered their comrades, all of whom were being ordered into the paths of enemy guns. If endangering life was cause for execution, surely it was the generals, who so recklessly and pointlessly threw away hundreds of thousands of young lives, who should have been shot. So far, the Ministry of Defence has refused to go as far as to offer a pardon to the executed soldiers. Dr John Reid, when he was Minister for the Armed Forces, recognised that those men should be regarded as victims of the war and should not be stigmatised. The ministry's advice was that there was insufficient evidence, because of the passage of time and the lack of contemporary records, to reassess each individual case. It was thought that a blanket pardon would be unsafe, as some of those executed would have deserved—by the standards of their time—the punishment that they received. I urge Her Majesty's Government to reconsider. Pardon is not exoneration—pardon implies some guilt. Surely it would be more compassionate for a few men to receive an undeserved pardon than for many innocent men to remain convicted. Even in the cases of those who committed actual crimes, what contribution did the brutalising effects of their experiences have on their behaviour? There is no suggestion in this motion of financial recompense. The soldiers' relatives are asking for something far more valuable than that—the restoration of the reputations and the good names of the soldiers, the inclusion of their names on war memorials and the return of their medals to those who survive them. Today, on this last armistice day of the century, I ask members to remember those victims with understanding and compassion, as we remember all those who endured the horrors of war in the service of this country. May the coming century be kinder than that which closes. I am honoured to have been able to speak to this motion. Applause.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank everyone who has supported this motion. I am particularly pleased by the genuine cross-party support that it has received. I also thank the media for their interest, and those members of the public who contacted me to offer their support.

Our Parliament is not able to pardon the 39

Scottish soldiers shot by their own side during the first world war. That is reserved to the Ministry of Defence, as is the matter of the other 268 members of the British empire forces who were similarly executed. What we can do is express our view, using the knowledge and understanding that we have gained over this century, not to re-write history, but to add the final chapter to the history of the 1914 to 1918 war. In doing so, we remember the terrible suffering endured by the young men who offered their lives in the protection not of our freedom and democracy, but of the economic interests of the British empire.

I have been asked what can be achieved more than 80 years after the conflict. Those most immediately affected—the parents, siblings girlfriends, wives and children of those soldiers— are probably deceased by now. We cannot lessen their pain or comfort them with the restoration of their loved one's reputation. There are families of executed soldiers who continue to campaign to clear the names of their relatives, such as the niece of 22-year-old Private Bertie McCubbin, who was executed because he felt unable, owing to the physical effects of shelling, to carry out the duties demanded of him. We are not too late to bring comfort to those relatives. We are not too late to recognise that, during that war, the demands that our country exacted of its young soldiers—some little more than boys—were too much for some to endure.

Let us remember the conditions under which the private soldier at the western front existed. It was a pointless, static conflict over strips of earth, which achieved nothing other than the slaughter of millions of young men from both sides. The soldiers were condemned to existence in hell— floundering in mud in the winter, baking in the summer, rats and parasites their constant companions, never knowing whether today's sunrise would be their last, without respite, week after week, month after month, year after ghastly year.

The ordinary private soldiers in the trenches did not often, if ever, come home on leave. They were subjected to constant shelling—

\"the monstrous anger of the guns\"

referred to by the war poet, Wilfred Owen, in \"Anthem for Doomed Youth\". They knew that they would be ordered to run towards that anger, witnessing the deaths of countless comrades in the futile exercise. Imagine the horror of sharing accommodation with the remains of other men, of seeking shelter from enemy fire to find it already occupied by the rotting carcases of fallen soldiers.

Whether volunteer or conscript, those soldiers cannot have had any notion of what they were to face when they signed up to serve their country.

This was not the modern, familiar Europe that we know through our holidays and television travel programmes. France would have been as alien and foreign to them as, 50 years later, Vietnam was to the young American soldiers who fought there. Communications were poor—in addition to their personal discomforts, the soldiers would have been anxious about loved ones back home.

The stress that the soldiers in the trenches—and their immediate superiors—suffered is difficult to imagine. That stress was physical and psychological, enduring and brutalising. We now recognise the effects of stress on the human body and psyche. Individuals who suffer traumatic events, over even a brief period, are now generally offered counselling and help towards recovering from the effects of their devastating experiences. There was no such knowledge at the beginning of the century. There were only vague references to something called shell-shock or loss of nerves— references that placed some blame on the individual, suggesting some weakness of character. Now, we know better.

The argument may be made that the deserters endangered the lives of their comrades. Most of the men who were executed were not deserters— they went absent without leave, got lost, showed violence towards officers or injured themselves to avoid having to go over the top. Even those men who deserted during combat would hardly have endangered their comrades, all of whom were being ordered into the paths of enemy guns. If endangering life was cause for execution, surely it was the generals, who so recklessly and pointlessly threw away hundreds of thousands of young lives, who should have been shot.

So far, the Ministry of Defence has refused to go as far as to offer a pardon to the executed soldiers. Dr John Reid, when he was Minister for the Armed Forces, recognised that those men should be regarded as victims of the war and should not be stigmatised. The ministry's advice was that there was insufficient evidence, because of the passage of time and the lack of contemporary records, to reassess each individual case. It was thought that a blanket pardon would be unsafe, as some of those executed would have deserved—by the standards of their time—the punishment that they received.

I urge Her Majesty's Government to reconsider. Pardon is not exoneration—pardon implies some guilt. Surely it would be more compassionate for a few men to receive an undeserved pardon than for many innocent men to remain convicted. Even in the cases of those who committed actual crimes, what contribution did the brutalising effects of their experiences have on their behaviour?

There is no suggestion in this motion of financial recompense. The soldiers' relatives are asking for

something far more valuable than that—the restoration of the reputations and the good names of the soldiers, the inclusion of their names on war memorials and the return of their medals to those who survive them.

Today, on this last armistice day of the century, I ask members to remember those victims with understanding and compassion, as we remember all those who endured the horrors of war in the service of this country. May the coming century be kinder than that which closes.

I am honoured to have been able to speak to this motion. [Applause.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2140E187P335C711622", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pardon for Executed Soldiers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27062, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 618.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 618.0, "ID": 27062, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Rumbles, Mike", "ID": 2140, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Rumbles", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Mike Rumbles (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 644.0, "ContributionID": 711622, "EditedText": "I commend Dr Elaine Murray for bringing this most worthwhile motion to the chamber. Although it is on a reserved matter, we in the Scottish Parliament can and should send a clear message to the Ministry of Defence. John Reid, while Minister for the Armed Forces, refused to recommend a pardon on the ground that it was too late to go over each individual case. That does not mean that there were no grounds for a pardon. The whole point of the motion is not to go over each individual case, but to give a posthumous pardon to all 307 men.I disagree entirely with the stance taken by Ben Wallace. We are not attempting to rewrite history. We are not pitting our values against the values of 1914 to 1918. Ben Wallace should understand that we are trying to give some comfort to the families of those men. Mr Wallace does not have the monopoly in this chamber on experience of active service. I know from the 15 years that I spent in the Army that attitudes have changed, despite what Mr Wallace may think. Those men would not have been executed in today's Army. Indeed, Ben, it is significant that even in world war two the Army recognised that it had got it wrong. Not one soldier was executed for such offences between 1939 and 1945. It is fitting that we are discussing this motion on this day of remembrance. Those 307 men are the forgotten victims of world war one. It would not be good enough simply to add their names to the war memorials. Today, we remember those men— and, as important, their relatives, who are still affected by the executions—by backing the motion and asking the Government to think again and to recommend a posthumous pardon.", "EditedTextHTML": "I commend Dr Elaine Murray for bringing this most worthwhile motion to the chamber. Although it is on a reserved matter, we in the Scottish Parliament can and should send a clear message to the Ministry of Defence. John Reid, while Minister for the Armed Forces, refused to recommend a pardon on the ground that it was too late to go over each individual case. That does not mean that there were no grounds for a pardon. The whole point of the motion is not to go over each individual case, but to give a posthumous

pardon to all 307 men.

I disagree entirely with the stance taken by Ben Wallace. We are not attempting to rewrite history. We are not pitting our values against the values of 1914 to 1918. Ben Wallace should understand that we are trying to give some comfort to the families of those men. Mr Wallace does not have the monopoly in this chamber on experience of active service. I know from the 15 years that I spent in the Army that attitudes have changed, despite what Mr Wallace may think. Those men would not have been executed in today's Army. Indeed, Ben, it is significant that even in world war two the Army recognised that it had got it wrong. Not one soldier was executed for such offences between 1939 and 1945.

It is fitting that we are discussing this motion on this day of remembrance. Those 307 men are the forgotten victims of world war one. It would not be good enough simply to add their names to the war memorials. Today, we remember those men— and, as important, their relatives, who are still affected by the executions—by backing the motion and asking the Government to think again and to recommend a posthumous pardon.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4982655+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1811E172P455C711626", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Pardon for Executed Soldiers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27062, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 618.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 618.0, "ID": 27062, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ullrich, Kay", "ID": 1811, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kay Ullrich", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Kay Ullrich (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 656.0, "ContributionID": 711626, "EditedText": "One of my most lasting memories is of standing in the main hall in Ayr Academy with my father. I must have been in fifth or sixth year at the time. My father was born in 1905 and had been just too young for the first world war. He, too, had gone to Ayr Academy and as he looked at the names on the war memorial, he said, \"All those boys were commissioned straight out of sixth year. That one enlisted from fifth year.\" As a schoolgirl in 1960 or 1961, I could not for the life of me imagine the boys in my class being mature enough to fight and die for their country. The fact that most of the boys whose names were listed on that memorial had done so as volunteers was completely beyond my ken. Of course, I lived in a different time and we live in different times today. Wars are covered, dissected and debated in the media, but to address this motion we have to consider how it was in 1914 to 1918. Make no mistake, the war was glamourised. Kitchener's poster read, \"Your country needs you\". Music halls were the main source of entertainment for working-class people and well-known female music hall stars vamped their way—I will spare members my singing— through \"If you're ready and you're willing And you want to take the shilling I'll make a British soldier out of you.\"As if that were not enough, in every village, town and city, volunteers were marched up to the local railway station behind either a brass band or the local pipe band. Is it any wonder that impressionable young boys took the shilling to be part of this glamorous, patriotic event? Those young men included the boy soldier Fusilier Herbert Burden, who lied about his age to join up at 16, only to be executed at 17 for desertion, and the 19-year-old Edinburgh bantam soldier—that meant he was under 5 ft 3 in tall—Private James Archibald. Private Archibald was described by his platoon commander as a typical slum product and of a low level of intelligence. Even though his commander wrote that he doubted whether Archibald realised the gravity of his offence, he was shot at dawn on 4 June 1916. Those executions were the result of a policy recommended by General Haig, who thought it necessary to make examples and—as he put it— to prevent cowardice in the face of the enemy. True to his word, General Haig signed an all-time record number of death sentences during his tenure. Those death sentences also meant that more than 1,000 British soldiers were ordered to shoot their comrades. I often wonder whether any of the young officers whose names are listed on the Ayr Academy war memorial had to use their pistol to finish off the victim, as so often happened. Today, as we remember those who died in the two world wars, let us also remember the young men who were shot at dawn simply because we did not recognise battle fatigue or, indeed, because it was done pour encourager les autres. The Government's excuse is that too many files have been lost or destroyed for individual cases to be re-examined at this late stage. That is probably true, but what is needed is a general amnesty or pardon to mark the new millennium and to remove the burden of shame, guilt and resentment from the families of those who were executed. That is the recommendation of the Royal British Legion. Let it also be the recommendation of the Scottish Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "One of my most lasting memories is of standing in the main hall in Ayr Academy with my father. I must have been in fifth or sixth year at the time. My father was born in 1905 and had been just too young for the first world war. He, too, had gone to Ayr Academy and as he looked at the names on the war memorial, he said, \"All those boys were commissioned straight out of sixth year. That one enlisted from fifth year.\" As a schoolgirl in 1960 or 1961, I could not for the life of me imagine the boys in my class being mature enough to fight and die for their country. The fact that most of the boys whose names were listed on that memorial had done so as volunteers was completely beyond my ken.

Of course, I lived in a different time and we live in different times today. Wars are covered, dissected and debated in the media, but to address this motion we have to consider how it was in 1914 to 1918. Make no mistake, the war was glamourised. Kitchener's poster read, \"Your country needs you\". Music halls were the main source of entertainment for working-class people and well-known female music hall stars vamped their way—I will spare members my singing— through

\"If you're ready and you're willing And you want to take the shilling I'll make a British soldier out of you.\"

As if that were not enough, in every village, town and city, volunteers were marched up to the local railway station behind either a brass band or the local pipe band. Is it any wonder that impressionable young boys took the shilling to be part of this glamorous, patriotic event? Those young men included the boy soldier Fusilier Herbert Burden, who lied about his age to join up at 16, only to be executed at 17 for desertion, and the 19-year-old Edinburgh bantam soldier—that meant he was under 5 ft 3 in tall—Private James Archibald. Private Archibald was described by his platoon commander as a typical slum product and of a low level of intelligence. Even though his commander wrote that he doubted whether Archibald realised the gravity of his offence, he was shot at dawn on 4 June 1916.

Those executions were the result of a policy recommended by General Haig, who thought it necessary to make examples and—as he put it— to prevent cowardice in the face of the enemy. True to his word, General Haig signed an all-time record number of death sentences during his tenure. Those death sentences also meant that more than 1,000 British soldiers were ordered to shoot their comrades. I often wonder whether any of the young officers whose names are listed on the Ayr Academy war memorial had to use their pistol to finish off the victim, as so often happened.

Today, as we remember those who died in the two world wars, let us also remember the young men who were shot at dawn simply because we did not recognise battle fatigue or, indeed, because it was done pour encourager les autres.

The Government's excuse is that too many files have been lost or destroyed for individual cases to be re-examined at this late stage. That is probably true, but what is needed is a general amnesty or pardon to mark the new millennium and to remove the burden of shame, guilt and resentment from the families of those who were executed.

That is the recommendation of the Royal British Legion. Let it also be the recommendation of the Scottish Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.513892+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C711400", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27033, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 129.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 129.0, "ID": 27033, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fergus Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 182.0, "ContributionID": 711400, "EditedText": "Thank you, Jamie. I am ready to accept other interventions, but only from Labour members who think that the millennium dome is a good use of public funds.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you, Jamie. I am ready to accept other interventions, but only from Labour members who think that the millennium dome is a good use of public funds.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:01:03.9549326+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C711402", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27033, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 129.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 129.0, "ID": 27033, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fergus Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 186.0, "ContributionID": 711402, "EditedText": "I am delighted that we are now having a real debate. We are stirring up some controversy. Those are serious points that, as we are having a serious debate, I will answer. The millennium dome is the major project in Great Britain, and if Tony Blair cannot accomplish that, can we have confidence in our readiness for Y2K? I think not. Its lack of readiness is what makes my point about the millennium dome relevant. I had expected Richard Simpson's point to be raised. The Financial Times—a source that may not be as authoritative as the Daily Record— described a survey of whether newsagents in Scotland have yet sold any tickets for the millennium dome. I may be wrong, but I understood that no such tickets have been sold in Scottish newsagents. While I am happy to be an optimist like Richard, I fear that the project is suffering.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am delighted that we are now having a real debate. We are stirring up some controversy. Those are serious points that, as we are having a serious debate, I will answer. The millennium dome is the major project in Great Britain, and if Tony Blair cannot accomplish that, can we have confidence in our readiness for Y2K? I think not. Its lack of readiness is what makes my point about the millennium dome relevant.

I had expected Richard Simpson's point to be raised. The Financial Times—a source that may not be as authoritative as the Daily Record— described a survey of whether newsagents in Scotland have yet sold any tickets for the millennium dome. I may be wrong, but I understood that no such tickets have been sold in Scottish newsagents. While I am happy to be an optimist like Richard, I fear that the project is suffering.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:01:03.9549326+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C711463", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27036, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 265.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27037, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 266.0, "QuestionHeading": "Rural Economy", "QuestionHeadingID": 27042, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 297.0, "DisplayOrder": 297.0, "ID": 27042, "ParentID": 27037 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "5. Fergus Ewing (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 298.0, "ContributionID": 711463, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what measures it proposes to assist the rural economy. (S1O-596) The Minister for Rural Affairs (Ross Finnie): The Executive is committed to supporting and enhancing all aspects of rural life in Scotland, including through the development of a sustainable rural economy. A wide range of steps is being taken as part of the programme for government.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what measures it proposes to assist the rural economy. (S1O-596) The Minister for Rural Affairs (Ross Finnie): The Executive is committed to supporting and enhancing all aspects of rural life in Scotland, including through the development of a sustainable rural economy. A wide range of steps is being taken as part of the programme for government.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:01:03.9549326+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2180E179P471C711492", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27036, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 265.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27037, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 266.0, "QuestionHeading": "Information and Communications Technology", "QuestionHeadingID": 27048, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 361.0, "DisplayOrder": 361.0, "ID": 27048, "ParentID": 27037 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lochhead, Richard", "ID": 2180, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Lochhead", "SpeakerDisplayName": "11. Richard Lochhead (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 362.0, "ContributionID": 711492, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it is aware of what plans local authorities intend to make to provide technical support in schools to assist teachers in the light of the provision for information and communications technology for schools through the excellence fund. (S1O-575) The Deputy Minister for Children and Education (Peter Peacock): The majority of authorities plan to use some of their excellence fund resources to improve technical support for ICT in schools.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it is aware of what plans local authorities intend to make to provide technical support in schools to assist teachers in the light of the provision for information and communications technology for schools through the excellence fund. (S1O-575) The Deputy Minister for Children and Education (Peter Peacock): The majority of authorities plan to use some of their excellence fund resources to improve technical support for ICT in schools.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:55.929179+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1756E184P464C711564", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Temporary Sheriffs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27059, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 490.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 490.0, "ID": 27059, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Grahame, Christine", "ID": 1756, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Christine Grahame", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 518.0, "ContributionID": 711564, "EditedText": "The minister will recall that, during the emergency debate on the legislation amending the Mental Health (Scotland) Act 1984, the SNP raised questions about the impact of the European Court of Human Rights. In light of the High Court's decision, is the minister content that he is being given safe legal advice on the impact of ECHR on Scottish legislation?", "EditedTextHTML": "The minister will recall that, during the emergency debate on the legislation amending the Mental Health (Scotland) Act 1984, the SNP raised questions about the impact of the European Court of Human Rights. In light of the High Court's decision, is the minister content that he is being given safe legal advice on the impact of ECHR on Scottish legislation?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:01:40.7395022+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C711560", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Temporary Sheriffs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27059, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 490.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 490.0, "ID": 27059, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 510.0, "ContributionID": 711560, "EditedText": "The minister will be aware that temporary sheriffs have frequently been appointed simply because they cost less than permanent sheriffs. In light of that, has there been any assessment of the likely cost implications of today's decision?", "EditedTextHTML": "The minister will be aware that temporary sheriffs have frequently been appointed simply because they cost less than permanent sheriffs. In light of that, has there been any assessment of the likely cost implications of today's decision?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:00:59.8834011+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C711324", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27031, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27031, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 11.0, "ContributionID": 711324, "EditedText": "I thank the minister for his statement and for the inclusive way in which he has gone about this exercise. That is what we have come to expect of the Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning, who sets an example to all. I want to ask him for two points of clarification. First, he opened his statement with a quotation from the Prime Minister on the responsibility of ministers, which effectively stated that the buck stops with ministers to oversee the action that is being taken on the UK infrastructure by both private and public sector organisations. What does that mean in practice, bearing in mind the comments that the minister later made on the slow preparations that are being made by small and medium enterprises to equip them for the difficulties that may be faced? As the minister said, there are only 50 days to go until the millennium, therefore time is of the essence in ensuring that that ministerial responsibility is met. I would be interested to hear what that means. Secondly, in all the plans that I have seen, there is a heavy reliance on what the Scottish Executive refers to as independent assessment of the preparedness of plans by public sector organisations. In the contracts that have been issued to those companies to carry out that independent verification, is there any liability on those companies for the effectiveness of their assessment of whether the millennium bug problems have been properly assessed in individual organisations? If something were to go wrong—if there were a breach of practice—would there be any liability on the assessors who have carried out that independent work on behalf of the Executive?", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the minister for his statement and for the inclusive way in which he has gone about this exercise. That is what we have come to expect of the Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning, who sets an example to all. I want to ask him for two points of clarification.

First, he opened his statement with a quotation from the Prime Minister on the responsibility of

ministers, which effectively stated that the buck stops with ministers to oversee the action that is being taken on the UK infrastructure by both private and public sector organisations. What does that mean in practice, bearing in mind the comments that the minister later made on the slow preparations that are being made by small and medium enterprises to equip them for the difficulties that may be faced? As the minister said, there are only 50 days to go until the millennium, therefore time is of the essence in ensuring that that ministerial responsibility is met. I would be interested to hear what that means.

Secondly, in all the plans that I have seen, there is a heavy reliance on what the Scottish Executive refers to as independent assessment of the preparedness of plans by public sector organisations. In the contracts that have been issued to those companies to carry out that independent verification, is there any liability on those companies for the effectiveness of their assessment of whether the millennium bug problems have been properly assessed in individual organisations? If something were to go wrong—if there were a breach of practice—would there be any liability on the assessors who have carried out that independent work on behalf of the Executive?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:25:39.4616009+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C711414", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27033, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 129.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 129.0, "ID": 27033, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 211.0, "ContributionID": 711414, "EditedText": "Will the minister say a little more on that point? I have noticed in some papers that the chief inspector of prisons for Scotland has carried out the prisons review, which comes within the minister's direct responsibility. All the organisations that carried out independent assessments had access to additional specialist technical and technological information, which might not have been part of the mainstream audit and supervision process of the Accounts Commission or the chief inspector of prisons, for example.", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister say a little more on that point? I have noticed in some papers that the chief inspector of prisons for Scotland has carried out the prisons review, which comes within the minister's direct responsibility. All the organisations that carried out independent assessments had access to additional specialist technical and technological information, which might not have been part of the mainstream audit and supervision process of the Accounts Commission or the chief inspector of prisons, for example.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:28:33.8639665+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1857E136P222C711460", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27036, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 265.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27037, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 266.0, "QuestionHeading": "Ambulance Staff", "QuestionHeadingID": 27041, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 290.0, "DisplayOrder": 290.0, "ID": 27041, "ParentID": 27037 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeill, Pauline", "ID": 1857, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Kelvin" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Pauline McNeill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "4. Pauline McNeill (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 291.0, "ContributionID": 711460, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive to detail any known statistics on the incidence of violence towards ambulance staff in the greater Glasgow area. (S1O-582) The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): Data collected by the Scottish Ambulance Service show that, in the two years for which statistics are available, the number of incidents of violence to staff in the west central ambulance service were as follows: 17 in the year from 1 September 1997 to 31 August 1998; and 26 in the year from 1 September 1998 to 31 August 1999.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive to detail any known statistics on the incidence of violence towards ambulance staff in the greater Glasgow area. (S1O-582) The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): Data collected by the Scottish Ambulance Service show that, in the two years for which statistics are available, the number of incidents of violence to staff in the west central ambulance service were as follows: 17 in the year from 1 September 1997 to 31 August 1998; and 26 in the year from 1 September 1998 to 31 August 1999.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:28:33.8639665+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C711357", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27031, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27031, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 78.0, "ContributionID": 711357, "EditedText": "That was a helpful intervention, and I appreciate the work that has been done to place the millennium in a wider context. That was exactly the reassurance that I was seeking from the minister. My second point relates to the assessment of preparedness that has been carried out by the Scottish Executive. I have looked through many of the reports, which are comprehensive in their discussion of every aspect and facet of public service. However, they are heavily dependent on assessments that have been made by independent organisations acting on behalf of the Scottish Executive. The minister has dealt with some of this already, but I would like to know what the arrangements were for selecting the consultancy organisations involved. What assurance can the minister give Parliament that a powerful and rigorous assessment regime has been put in place to test the testers of systems, to ensure that all tests have been carried out to the same standard and with the same effectiveness? We need to know where liability and responsibility rest if some fundamental points are missed, as there are potential problems. Obviously, we do not want anything to happen, but the Government has based much of its thinking on independent assessment work and I would like some reassurance about where that has come from. My third point relates to availability of resources. From the papers that I have examined, it is clear that a great deal of resources have been expended on guaranteeing that assessment work has been carried out, and that that has absorbed a lot of public and private sector time. However, some key groups are involved. Elaine Smith raised the issue of the allocation of resources to the police forces. There has been such an allocation. The Metropolitan police have been allocated up to £176 million to cover the cost of policing millennium celebrations and dealing with year 2000 problems, but the Deputy First Minister announced additional resources for the Scottish forces totalling only £4.7 million across the country. That seems a little out of kilter with £176 million for the Metropolitan police, bearing it in mind that Edinburgh will hold one of the largest millennium celebrations in the world. I do not plan to obtain a hotel room in Edinburgh on 31 December—probably because I will be at the Government bunker, if the invitation is forthcoming—but I suspect that this city will be very busy. The allocation of resources does not seem to be commensurate with our emergency services' requirement for appropriate support. The last issue that I would like to raise relates to the planning of contingency. In the Executive's reports, much has been made of the separate business continuity plans that have been developed. I fully accept the vital role that business continuity plans have to play in ensuring the survival of organisations, but will the minister ensure that the plans—which are part of good housekeeping in most organisations, whether in the private or public sector—will be updated regularly? That is particularly important in light of the fact that we might face issues of date discontinuity for a number of years at the start of the next century. Similarly, the millennium operating regimes must be updated regularly. As has been mentioned, the hazards that we will face this hogmanay might be repeated during the next four years. What are the Executive's plans for such eventualities? While it is clear that many questions need to be answered—I am aware that the minister has already provided some answers—I am happy to offer the Executive the support of the Scottish National party for the work that it has done to tackle the millennium date change problem. I offer the help of the party in tackling any problems that might arise. The millennium bug was never only an information technology problem. It is a business problem, a public services problem, a problem that has the potential to affect many aspects of everyday life. That is why I repeat the point that I made earlier: it is the Executive's responsibility to complete the job that it has taken on, to ensure that every level of support is provided to our services at the end of this year and that the work that has been done is built on so that any problems of date discontinuity are ironed out.", "EditedTextHTML": "That was a helpful intervention, and I appreciate the work that has been done to place the millennium in a wider context. That was exactly the reassurance that I was seeking from the minister.

My second point relates to the assessment of preparedness that has been carried out by the Scottish Executive. I have looked through many of the reports, which are comprehensive in their discussion of every aspect and facet of public service. However, they are heavily dependent on assessments that have been made by independent organisations acting on behalf of the Scottish Executive.

The minister has dealt with some of this already, but I would like to know what the arrangements were for selecting the consultancy organisations involved. What assurance can the minister give Parliament that a powerful and rigorous assessment regime has been put in place to test the testers of systems, to ensure that all tests have been carried out to the same standard and with the same effectiveness? We need to know where liability and responsibility rest if some fundamental points are missed, as there are potential problems. Obviously, we do not want anything to happen, but the Government has based much of its thinking on independent assessment work and I would like some reassurance about where that has come from.

My third point relates to availability of resources. From the papers that I have examined, it is clear that a great deal of resources have been expended on guaranteeing that assessment work has been carried out, and that that has absorbed a lot of public and private sector time. However, some key groups are involved. Elaine Smith raised the issue of the allocation of resources to the police forces. There has been such an allocation. The Metropolitan police have been allocated up to £176 million to cover the cost of policing millennium celebrations and dealing with year 2000 problems, but the Deputy First Minister announced additional resources for the Scottish forces totalling only £4.7 million across the country. That seems a little out of kilter with £176 million for the Metropolitan police, bearing it in mind that Edinburgh will hold one of the largest millennium celebrations in the world. I do not plan to obtain a hotel room in Edinburgh on 31 December—probably because I will be at the Government bunker, if the invitation is forthcoming—but I suspect that this city will be very busy. The allocation of resources does not seem to be commensurate with our emergency services' requirement for appropriate support.

The last issue that I would like to raise relates to the planning of contingency. In the Executive's reports, much has been made of the separate business continuity plans that have been developed. I fully accept the vital role that business continuity plans have to play in ensuring the survival of organisations, but will the minister ensure that the plans—which are part of good housekeeping in most organisations, whether in the private or public sector—will be updated regularly? That is particularly important in light of the fact that we might face issues of date discontinuity for a number of years at the start of the next century. Similarly, the millennium operating regimes must be updated regularly. As has been mentioned, the hazards that we will face this hogmanay might be repeated during the next four years. What are the Executive's plans for such eventualities?

While it is clear that many questions need to be answered—I am aware that the minister has already provided some answers—I am happy to offer the Executive the support of the Scottish National party for the work that it has done to tackle the millennium date change problem. I offer the help of the party in tackling any problems that might arise.

The millennium bug was never only an information technology problem. It is a business problem, a public services problem, a problem that has the potential to affect many aspects of everyday life. That is why I repeat the point that I made earlier: it is the Executive's responsibility to complete the job that it has taken on, to ensure that every level of support is provided to our services at the end of this year and that the work that has been done is built on so that any problems of date discontinuity are ironed out.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:26:39.873439+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C711380", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 11 Nov 1999", "ID": 4190 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-11T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Millennium Date Change", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27033, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 129.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 129.0, "ID": 27033, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 134.0, "ContributionID": 711380, "EditedText": "I listened with great interest to Phil Gallie's comments about blue, the Conservative colour. If that means that the Conservatives are always well prepared, were they well prepared for disaster, as we are discussing in this debate?", "EditedTextHTML": "I listened with great interest to Phil Gallie's comments about blue, the Conservative colour. If that means that the Conservatives are always well prepared, were they well prepared for disaster, as we are discussing in this debate?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:26:39.873439+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711054", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Time for Reflection", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27025, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 27025, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "The Most Reverend Keith Patrick O’Brien (Archbishop of St Andrews and Edinburgh) ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Most Reverend Keith Patrick O'Brien (Archbishop of St Andrews and Edinburgh): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 4.0, "ContributionID": 711054, "EditedText": "My dear sisters and brothers, may we all seek to serve the people of Scotland with love and integrity. We place ourselves in the presence of God as we commend our activities to our creator. God be in my head and in my understanding, God be in mine eyes and in my looking, God be in my mouth and in my speaking, God be in my heart and in my thinking, God be at mine end and at my departing.The God who fills our lives speaks through his word. Let us listen to that word. As the Father has loved me, so I have loved you. Remain in my love. If you keep my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and remain in his love. I have told you this so that my own joy may be in you and your joy be complete. This is my commandment, love one another as I have loved you. A man can have no greater love than to lay down his life for his friends. For us, the laying down of our lives is not the extraordinary act of martyrdom but the daily forgetfulness of ourselves and our own desires to be of service to our sisters and brothers throughout this our land. That we may be faithful to our commitment of service, let us pray. Father in heaven, source of all life and goodness, we thank you for this land of ours, which we are privileged to serve. As it is entrusted to our care, teach us to cherish it and all that it contains. Make us sensitive to the needs of its peoples, make us tolerant of each other's differences, make us merciful to those who are in need. Help us foster respect for human life, help us to be true to our traditions of education, help us to love one another sincerely. May we always know your presence, may we always dwell in peace, and may we hand on to succeeding generations a land worthy of you. We ask this is the name of Jesus the Lord. AmenLet us sum up this and all our prayer in the great prayer Jesus taught us. Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name.Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory, for ever and ever. Amen May the Lord bless you and keep you. May the Lord let his face shine on you and be gracious to you. May the Lord show you his face and bring you peace. May almighty God bless you, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Amen.", "EditedTextHTML": "

My dear sisters and brothers, may we all seek to serve the people of Scotland with love and integrity.

We place ourselves in the presence of God as we commend our activities to our creator.

God be in my head and in my understanding, God be in mine eyes and in my looking, God be in my mouth and in my speaking, God be in my heart and in my thinking, God be at mine end and at my departing.

The God who fills our lives speaks through his word. Let us listen to that word.

As the Father has loved me, so I have loved you. Remain in my love. If you keep my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and remain in his love. I have told you this so that my own joy may be in you and your joy be complete. This is my commandment, love one another as I have loved you. A man can have no greater love than to lay down his life for his friends.

For us, the laying down of our lives is not the extraordinary act of martyrdom but the daily forgetfulness of ourselves and our own desires to be of service to our sisters and brothers throughout this our land.

That we may be faithful to our commitment of service, let us pray.

Father in heaven, source of all life and goodness, we thank you for this land of ours, which we are privileged to serve. As it is entrusted to our care, teach us to cherish it and all that it contains. Make us sensitive to the needs of its peoples, make us tolerant of each other's differences, make us merciful to those who are in need. Help us foster respect for human life, help us to be true to our traditions of education, help us to love one another sincerely. May we always know your presence, may we always dwell in peace, and may we hand on to succeeding generations a land worthy of you. We ask this is the name of Jesus the Lord. Amen

Let us sum up this and all our prayer in the great prayer Jesus taught us.

Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name.

Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory, for ever and ever. Amen

May the Lord bless you and keep you. May the Lord let his face shine on you and be gracious to you. May the Lord show you his face and bring you peace. May almighty God bless you, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Amen.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711055", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27026, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 6.0, "ID": 27026, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 7.0, "ContributionID": 711055, "EditedText": "Our next item of business is a statement on homelessness by Ms Wendy Alexander. The minister will take questions at the end of the statement, so there should be no interventions during it.", "EditedTextHTML": "Our next item of business is a statement on homelessness by Ms Wendy Alexander. The minister will take questions at the end of the statement, so there should be no interventions during it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711059", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27026, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 6.0, "ID": 27026, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 15.0, "ContributionID": 711059, "EditedText": "Is it the same point of order?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is it the same point of order?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711061", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27026, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 6.0, "ID": 27026, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 19.0, "ContributionID": 711061, "EditedText": "The First Minister and I meet from time to time.", "EditedTextHTML": "The First Minister and I meet from time to time.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2228E151P202C711062", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27026, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 6.0, "ID": 27026, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McCabe, Tom", "ID": 2228, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Tom McCabe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Parliament (Mr Tom McCabe) rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 21.0, "ContributionID": 711062, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2228E151P202C711064", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27026, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 6.0, "ID": 27026, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McCabe, Tom", "ID": 2228, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Tom McCabe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McCabe: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 25.0, "ContributionID": 711064, "EditedText": "I wish to provide some clarification. Two points of order have been raised. It is a pity that the members concerned do not fully recollect previous announcements. The amount of money that has been mentioned was announced previously to this Parliament. I am sure that the Minister for Communities will make that clear when she speaks.", "EditedTextHTML": "I wish to provide some clarification. Two points of order have been raised. It is a pity that the members concerned do not fully recollect previous announcements. The amount of money that has been mentioned was announced previously to this Parliament. I am sure that the Minister for Communities will make that clear when she speaks.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C711066", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27026, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 6.0, "ID": 27026, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Communities (Ms Wendy Alexander): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 30.0, "ContributionID": 711066, "EditedText": "Let me make one observation. We had a debate in the chamber on 16 September, during which I announced that we were increasing the previous allocation of £14 million to £20 million, and that I would come back to the chamber to explain how that money would be spent. That is what I am doing now; I did not move one iota beyond that in saying to the press that that was what we were doing today. There are a number of items in my statement— mindful of the guidance that we received last week—that will be news to the chamber. Of course, the Opposition has had pre-access to the statement and is therefore aware of its contents. I will now move on to my statement. I am pleased to have the opportunity to bring to the Parliament my proposals for the next phase of the rough sleepers initiative. Since 1997, we have directed £16 million to projects that address the problems of those who live on the streets, under bridges and in disused buildings in the cities and villages of Scotland. We targeted the first tranche of money at those whom we knew, or thought we knew, were sleeping rough. It was important to get the first projects started because that would bring people in from the cold. Many of the early projects were about outreach and street workers, but from the outset we knew that we needed to understand the issues better and to have work carried out at grass-roots level, so we set up a research project to evaluate what we were doing and to inform us on how the initiative might be taken forward. That was the inheritance that my ministerial colleagues and I in the communities team inherited in May: £16 million already allocated and new research just about to arrive. It was on that basis that we chose to highlight in the programme for government that our pledge above all others was that by 2003 no one should have to sleep rough in Scotland. As everyone working in the field acknowledges, that is an ambitious goal and one with which we are proud to associate ourselves. Today, I am announcing the next phase in making that pledge a reality. I am inviting local authorities and their partners to bring forward proposals to spend a further £20 million in the next two years. Crucially, the evaluation report that we are publishing today gives us the evidence to target the new investment at the heart of the problem. First and foremost, the evaluation tells us that many more people across Scotland than had previously been estimated have had the experience of sleeping rough. As many as 8,000 to 11,000 people in Scotland sleep rough during a year. They are not necessarily people who have no accommodation; they are people whose access to accommodation is so precarious that at times it is necessary for them to sleep in the open. In many cases, they will be the same people who stay for brief periods in hostels, or in other forms of temporary accommodation provided by local authorities, voluntary organisations, friends and family. Overwhelmingly, such people have been connected with the housing, social work or health services at some time. What the research tells us is that they slip through the net. Whatever solutions are available to them are not enough or are not sufficiently co-ordinated to give them the help they desperately need. As is true of us all, rough sleepers have a complex cocktail of personal circumstances, although they are invariably more complex for rough sleepers than for most of us. That complex cocktail of personal circumstances goes well beyond housing. One in three rough sleepers surveyed had alcohol problems, one in three had a drug problem, one in four had a physical health problem and one in five had a mental health problem. The message is that Scotland's rough sleepers need support to address their health needs, addiction issues and accommodation problems. Unless we can offer help on all those big issues— health, housing and addiction—the greatest risk is that people will quickly find themselves sleeping on the streets again. The research shows how comprehensively we fail those for whom the state purports to care. One in four rough sleepers has been in local authority care, four in 10 have done time in prison, more than one in 10 have been in long-term care in hospitals and more than one in 10 have been in the armed forces. Quite simply, we have comprehensively failed those people as they have moved from our care into independent living. The overriding message to us, Scotland's new legislators willing and anxious to solve the crisis of rough sleeping, is simple: provide the right support at the right time. That means support not just in a time of crisis, when the personal, social and financial costs are high, but Scottish support services available at the point where they are most needed, before the street becomes the only option. Above all, it means vital services in hostels and day centres not a bus ride across the city and not just during office hours. It means a package of support that addresses the whole person— sustained for as long as it is needed—because the cost of failing is a cost that we all bear. Making that happen will depend on teamwork. I am delighted that the Minister for Health and Community Care and the Minister for Justice have agreed to involve formally the health and justice departments in the next phase of the rough sleepers initiative. We will examine the co-ordination of health and social work services with the provision of accommodation, the provision of advice and support for ex-offenders on their release from prison, the availability of alcohol and drugs detoxification and rehabilitation services for homeless and roofless people. We will consider how best to ensure that rough sleepers receive accessible health care. In the guidelines I will issue today, local authorities are being invited to develop proposals that will make those connections on the ground. I have increased the budget by 40 per cent—to £20 million—to help them do that. A sum of £2 million will go to fund projects that address the full range of rough sleepers' needs and provide integrated, supported accommodation with some support services on site. I am targeting authorities that have not yet developed strategies for addressing the problems of rooflessness in their area. I am making available £2 million to ensure that rough sleeping is tackled throughout Scotland. We need to intervene earlier to ensure that people move out of hostels into homes, rather than from hostels to the street. A sum of £2 million is therefore being made available for effective preventive measures, such as rent deposit schemes, which will reduce the number of people who reach the point of having to sleep rough. The remaining £14 million will be directed towards projects that further develop existing strategies for tackling rough sleeping, some of which will involve continuation funding for projects that were developed in the earlier stages of the initiative. Both the national evaluation that I have discussed today and the recently published Glasgow evaluation suggest that there is a particular problem with the provision of services for rough sleepers and homeless people in Glasgow. Glasgow has one in eight of the households in Scotland, but one in three homelessness applications come from that city. The Glasgow evaluation study found that 60 per cent of rough sleepers were regular hostel dwellers, that almost half of them had some sort of accommodation ban from hostels in the city, that 65 per cent had held a tenancy that had failed and that 70 per cent had at one time been evicted from their hostel or other accommodation. Those statistics paint a stark picture of how the present system is failing. It fails to accommodate people and it fails to support and protect people if they are provided with accommodation. I know that many rough sleepers find living on the streets less frightening than staying in some of the hostel accommodation that is available. Too often, the mix of people in hostels exacerbates the problem. The hostels are too large. Some of them house more than 200 people in the most unsuitable accommodation, and little more than a caretaker is available. Hostels mix young with old, and the vulnerable with those who are most likely to prey on them, and little is offered by way of co-ordinated help and support. That system belongs to the past and we mean to change it. No one could argue with the conclusion that the problem of rough sleeping is at its most acute in Glasgow. Jackie Baillie, as chair of the homelessness task force, and I have therefore decided that we must make special arrangements to ensure that the scale and nature of the problem in Glasgow are fully addressed. Today, I am announcing that a high-level team is being set up to review the current efforts to tackle the problems of street homelessness in Glasgow. It will determine what more needs to be done to improve the provision of accommodation— particularly hostel accommodation—and of social and other support for people with complex needs, and it will make recommendations for action. I expect the review to be thorough and fundamental. The team must therefore take the necessary action. That will take time. It will have to form an early view on proposals for rough sleepers initiative funding that are due to be submitted from Glasgow in early January. One of the issues that I expect the team to consider is the present state of hostels in Glasgow and what should be done to improve them. I am under no illusions. I know that some will need to be replaced, others upgraded and others simply improved. I want the team to advise on how that can best be achieved, considering all the options, including the use of private finance. The team will report through Jackie Baillie's homelessness task force. It will be chaired by the Scottish Executive, and I am pleased to say that the following experienced people have agreed to take part: Margaret Vass of Glasgow City Council housing department; Rab Murray of Glasgow City Council social work department; Catriona Renfrew of Greater Glasgow Health Board; Ian Robertson of the Hamish Allan Centre; Margaret Taylor of the Glasgow Council for Single Homeless; Liz Nicholson of Shelter Scotland; Mel Young of The Big Issue; Suzanne Fitzpatrick of the University of Glasgow centre for urban studies; and Louise Carlin, the co-ordinator for the rough sleepers initiative in Glasgow. The Executive is serious about its commitment to end by 2003 the need for anyone to have to sleep rough in Scotland. To make it happen, we are prepared to make the necessary commitment in terms of funding and the additional effort that will be needed and to ensure that the different strands of government are connected. I am confident that through the rough sleepers initiative, through the homelessness task force, through the efforts of the new Glasgow strategy group and through the commitment of colleagues in other departments, long-term solutions can and will be developed. This is about the Parliament working in partnership with people at the sharp end across Scotland to make a difference. We can succeed.", "EditedTextHTML": "Let me make one observation. We had a debate in the chamber on 16 September, during which I announced that we were increasing the previous allocation of £14 million to £20 million, and that I would come back to the chamber to explain how that money would be spent. That is what I am doing now; I did not move one iota beyond that in saying to the press that that was what we were doing today.

There are a number of items in my statement— mindful of the guidance that we received last week—that will be news to the chamber. Of course, the Opposition has had pre-access to the statement and is therefore aware of its contents. I will now move on to my statement.

I am pleased to have the opportunity to bring to the Parliament my proposals for the next phase of the rough sleepers initiative. Since 1997, we have directed £16 million to projects that address the problems of those who live on the streets, under bridges and in disused buildings in the cities and villages of Scotland. We targeted the first tranche of money at those whom we knew, or thought we knew, were sleeping rough. It was important to get the first projects started because that would bring people in from the cold.

Many of the early projects were about outreach and street workers, but from the outset we knew that we needed to understand the issues better and to have work carried out at grass-roots level, so we set up a research project to evaluate what we were doing and to inform us on how the initiative might be taken forward. That was the inheritance that my ministerial colleagues and I in the communities team inherited in May: £16 million already allocated and new research just about to arrive.

It was on that basis that we chose to highlight in the programme for government that our pledge above all others was that by 2003 no one should have to sleep rough in Scotland. As everyone working in the field acknowledges, that is an ambitious goal and one with which we are proud to associate ourselves. Today, I am announcing the next phase in making that pledge a reality. I am inviting local authorities and their partners to bring forward proposals to spend a further £20 million in the next two years.

Crucially, the evaluation report that we are publishing today gives us the evidence to target the new investment at the heart of the problem. First and foremost, the evaluation tells us that many more people across Scotland than had previously been estimated have had the experience of sleeping rough. As many as 8,000 to 11,000 people in Scotland sleep rough during a year. They are not necessarily people who have no accommodation; they are people whose access to accommodation is so precarious that at times it is necessary for them to sleep in the open. In many cases, they will be the same people who

stay for brief periods in hostels, or in other forms of temporary accommodation provided by local authorities, voluntary organisations, friends and family.

Overwhelmingly, such people have been connected with the housing, social work or health services at some time. What the research tells us is that they slip through the net. Whatever solutions are available to them are not enough or are not sufficiently co-ordinated to give them the help they desperately need.

As is true of us all, rough sleepers have a complex cocktail of personal circumstances, although they are invariably more complex for rough sleepers than for most of us. That complex cocktail of personal circumstances goes well beyond housing. One in three rough sleepers surveyed had alcohol problems, one in three had a drug problem, one in four had a physical health problem and one in five had a mental health problem.

The message is that Scotland's rough sleepers need support to address their health needs, addiction issues and accommodation problems. Unless we can offer help on all those big issues— health, housing and addiction—the greatest risk is that people will quickly find themselves sleeping on the streets again.

The research shows how comprehensively we fail those for whom the state purports to care. One in four rough sleepers has been in local authority care, four in 10 have done time in prison, more than one in 10 have been in long-term care in hospitals and more than one in 10 have been in the armed forces. Quite simply, we have comprehensively failed those people as they have moved from our care into independent living.

The overriding message to us, Scotland's new legislators willing and anxious to solve the crisis of rough sleeping, is simple: provide the right support at the right time. That means support not just in a time of crisis, when the personal, social and financial costs are high, but Scottish support services available at the point where they are most needed, before the street becomes the only option. Above all, it means vital services in hostels and day centres not a bus ride across the city and not just during office hours. It means a package of support that addresses the whole person— sustained for as long as it is needed—because the cost of failing is a cost that we all bear.

Making that happen will depend on teamwork. I am delighted that the Minister for Health and Community Care and the Minister for Justice have agreed to involve formally the health and justice departments in the next phase of the rough sleepers initiative. We will examine the co-ordination of health and social work services with the provision of accommodation, the provision of advice and support for ex-offenders on their release from prison, the availability of alcohol and drugs detoxification and rehabilitation services for homeless and roofless people. We will consider how best to ensure that rough sleepers receive accessible health care.

In the guidelines I will issue today, local authorities are being invited to develop proposals that will make those connections on the ground. I have increased the budget by 40 per cent—to £20 million—to help them do that. A sum of £2 million will go to fund projects that address the full range of rough sleepers' needs and provide integrated, supported accommodation with some support services on site.

I am targeting authorities that have not yet developed strategies for addressing the problems of rooflessness in their area. I am making available £2 million to ensure that rough sleeping is tackled throughout Scotland.

We need to intervene earlier to ensure that people move out of hostels into homes, rather than from hostels to the street. A sum of £2 million is therefore being made available for effective preventive measures, such as rent deposit schemes, which will reduce the number of people who reach the point of having to sleep rough. The remaining £14 million will be directed towards projects that further develop existing strategies for tackling rough sleeping, some of which will involve continuation funding for projects that were developed in the earlier stages of the initiative.

Both the national evaluation that I have discussed today and the recently published Glasgow evaluation suggest that there is a particular problem with the provision of services for rough sleepers and homeless people in Glasgow. Glasgow has one in eight of the households in Scotland, but one in three homelessness applications come from that city. The Glasgow evaluation study found that 60 per cent of rough sleepers were regular hostel dwellers, that almost half of them had some sort of accommodation ban from hostels in the city, that 65 per cent had held a tenancy that had failed and that 70 per cent had at one time been evicted from their hostel or other accommodation.

Those statistics paint a stark picture of how the present system is failing. It fails to accommodate people and it fails to support and protect people if they are provided with accommodation. I know that many rough sleepers find living on the streets less frightening than staying in some of the hostel accommodation that is available. Too often, the mix of people in hostels exacerbates the problem. The hostels are too large. Some of them house more than 200 people in the most unsuitable accommodation, and little more than a caretaker is

available. Hostels mix young with old, and the vulnerable with those who are most likely to prey on them, and little is offered by way of co-ordinated help and support. That system belongs to the past and we mean to change it.

No one could argue with the conclusion that the problem of rough sleeping is at its most acute in Glasgow. Jackie Baillie, as chair of the homelessness task force, and I have therefore decided that we must make special arrangements to ensure that the scale and nature of the problem in Glasgow are fully addressed.

Today, I am announcing that a high-level team is being set up to review the current efforts to tackle the problems of street homelessness in Glasgow. It will determine what more needs to be done to improve the provision of accommodation— particularly hostel accommodation—and of social and other support for people with complex needs, and it will make recommendations for action. I expect the review to be thorough and fundamental. The team must therefore take the necessary action. That will take time. It will have to form an early view on proposals for rough sleepers initiative funding that are due to be submitted from Glasgow in early January.

One of the issues that I expect the team to consider is the present state of hostels in Glasgow and what should be done to improve them. I am under no illusions. I know that some will need to be replaced, others upgraded and others simply improved. I want the team to advise on how that can best be achieved, considering all the options, including the use of private finance.

The team will report through Jackie Baillie's homelessness task force. It will be chaired by the Scottish Executive, and I am pleased to say that the following experienced people have agreed to take part: Margaret Vass of Glasgow City Council housing department; Rab Murray of Glasgow City Council social work department; Catriona Renfrew of Greater Glasgow Health Board; Ian Robertson of the Hamish Allan Centre; Margaret Taylor of the Glasgow Council for Single Homeless; Liz Nicholson of Shelter Scotland; Mel Young of The Big Issue; Suzanne Fitzpatrick of the University of Glasgow centre for urban studies; and Louise Carlin, the co-ordinator for the rough sleepers initiative in Glasgow.

The Executive is serious about its commitment to end by 2003 the need for anyone to have to sleep rough in Scotland. To make it happen, we are prepared to make the necessary commitment in terms of funding and the additional effort that will be needed and to ensure that the different strands of government are connected. I am confident that through the rough sleepers initiative, through the homelessness task force, through the efforts of the new Glasgow strategy group and through the commitment of colleagues in other departments, long-term solutions can and will be developed. This is about the Parliament working in partnership with people at the sharp end across Scotland to make a difference. We can succeed.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C711068", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27026, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 6.0, "ID": 27026, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 34.0, "ContributionID": 711068, "EditedText": "Fiona raises an interesting issue. I said in September that I was increasing the available money to £20 million. I talked to colleagues about whether it was appropriate to come back to the Parliament today to comment on four new aspects of rough sleeping that I thought the Parliament would want to know about. First, we are releasing the most comprehensive evaluation ever undertaken of the nature of the problem in Scotland. Secondly, I am using that evaluation to identify for the first time the sort of bids for that £20 million that we are looking for. Thirdly, my statement referred to the extent to which colleagues in the Executive were anxious to be part of the solution to rough sleeping, having shared the outcome of the evaluation with them. Fourthly, I have identified a particular problem in Glasgow that we want to fix. It is certainly true that I have not added to the money. I have come back to the Parliament to say, \"Here's the research. This is how we want to spend the money.\" I deemed it appropriate to bring that to the Parliament's attention. Today, everyone out there will receive a letter that will invite them to bid for an extra £20 million. On the general point about housing finance, Fiona knows that when the Minister for Finance made his statement a couple of weeks ago, I was delighted to welcome the £50 million increase in the communities budget line, which is where the additional £6 million has been found. I want to make a completely non-sectarian point on the wider issue of housing investment, as it is incredibly important. I will focus on the Glasgow context, as that is what we have talked about today. Fiona knows that because the debt will come to central Government, we have the opportunity to borrow up to £1 billion to invest in that city's housing stock. We are interested in being involved in developing those proposals— that is where we should look for new resources for housing in Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "Fiona raises an interesting issue. I said in September that I was increasing the available money to £20 million. I talked to colleagues about whether it was appropriate to come back to the Parliament today to comment on four new aspects of rough sleeping that I thought the Parliament would want to know about.

First, we are releasing the most comprehensive evaluation ever undertaken of the nature of the problem in Scotland. Secondly, I am using that evaluation to identify for the first time the sort of bids for that £20 million that we are looking for. Thirdly, my statement referred to the extent to which colleagues in the Executive were anxious to be part of the solution to rough sleeping, having shared the outcome of the evaluation with them. Fourthly, I have identified a particular problem in Glasgow that we want to fix.

It is certainly true that I have not added to the money. I have come back to the Parliament to say, \"Here's the research. This is how we want to spend the money.\" I deemed it appropriate to bring that to the Parliament's attention. Today, everyone out there will receive a letter that will invite them to bid for an extra £20 million.

On the general point about housing finance, Fiona knows that when the Minister for Finance made his statement a couple of weeks ago, I was delighted to welcome the £50 million increase in the communities budget line, which is where the additional £6 million has been found.

I want to make a completely non-sectarian point on the wider issue of housing investment, as it is incredibly important. I will focus on the Glasgow context, as that is what we have talked about today. Fiona knows that because the debt will come to central Government, we have the opportunity to borrow up to £1 billion to invest in that city's housing stock. We are interested in being involved in developing those proposals— that is where we should look for new resources for housing in Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2185E120P328C711072", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27026, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 6.0, "ID": 27026, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Brown, Robert", "ID": 2185, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robert Brown", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robert Brown (Glasgow) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 42.0, "ContributionID": 711072, "EditedText": "I welcome the minister's statement on rooflessness. Should it represent only a partial solution, it is nevertheless welcome. Will the minister elaborate on the preventive measures that she outlined and the way in which the money will be targeted? Given the importance of Glasgow and the prominence of its drug and alcohol problems, will targeting strategies be directed towards Glasgow? Will that allow spending on associated projects that help people to get off drugs and alcohol? I would like some clarification on those points.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the minister's statement on rooflessness. Should it represent only a partial solution, it is nevertheless welcome. Will the minister elaborate on the preventive measures that she outlined and the way in which the money will be targeted? Given the importance of Glasgow and the prominence of its drug and alcohol problems, will targeting strategies be directed towards Glasgow? Will that allow spending on associated projects that help people to get off drugs and alcohol? I would like some clarification on those points.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1751E163P286C711078", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27026, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 6.0, "ID": 27026, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Craigie, Cathie", "ID": 1751, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Cumbernauld and Kilsyth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Cathie Craigie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Cathie Craigie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 54.0, "ContributionID": 711078, "EditedText": "I welcome the minister's investment and the recognition that she is giving to homelessness and rooflessness. Glasgow has been highlighted as an area with major problems. Are there any areas in Lanarkshire where money will be invested?", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the minister's investment and the recognition that she is giving to homelessness and rooflessness.

Glasgow has been highlighted as an area with major problems. Are there any areas in Lanarkshire where money will be invested?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1752E75P296C711082", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27026, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 6.0, "ID": 27026, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jamieson, Cathy", "ID": 1752, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Cathy Jamieson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Cathy Jamieson (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 62.0, "ContributionID": 711082, "EditedText": "In relation to young people leaving the care system, I perhaps have a slightly different view from Fiona McLeod, because I know that young people leaving the care system over the years have asked for a different set-up in relation to homelessness. Given that the announcement concentrates on Glasgow and urban areas, could the minister outline that this initiative will also help rural communities?", "EditedTextHTML": "In relation to young people leaving the care system, I perhaps have a slightly different view from Fiona McLeod, because I know that young people leaving the care system over the years have asked for a different set-up in relation to homelessness.

Given that the announcement concentrates on Glasgow and urban areas, could the minister outline that this initiative will also help rural communities?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C711083", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27026, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 6.0, "ID": 27026, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 64.0, "ContributionID": 711083, "EditedText": "Almost all the authorities that have not benefited so far from the rough sleepers initiative, largely because they have not submitted bids that deal with the problem, are in rural areas. We are now working with those authorities to ensure that all areas of Scotland benefit from this next round of funding.", "EditedTextHTML": "Almost all the authorities that have not benefited so far from the rough sleepers initiative, largely because they have not submitted bids that deal with the problem, are in rural areas. We are now working with those authorities to ensure that all areas of Scotland benefit from this next round of funding.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C711085", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27026, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 6.0, "ID": 27026, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 68.0, "ContributionID": 711085, "EditedText": "I think that that touches on the point that I made in response to Robert Brown. Today, we are saying that we fully acknowledge and recognise at the heart of Government that the health department and the justice department can contribute to solving this problem. We must make progress in partnership with the voluntary sector agencies, through the advisory group.", "EditedTextHTML": "I think that that touches on the point that I made in response to Robert Brown. Today, we are saying that we fully acknowledge and recognise at the heart of Government that the health department and the justice department can contribute to solving this problem. We must make progress in partnership with the voluntary sector agencies, through the advisory group.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1873E89P171C711090", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27026, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 6.0, "ID": 27026, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jackson, Dr Sylvia", "ID": 1873, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Stirling" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sylvia Jackson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Sylvia Jackson (Stirling) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 78.0, "ContributionID": 711090, "EditedText": "I thank the minister for the excellent measures she has outlined today. I would, however, like her views on the concerns that have been raised by Shelter regarding the rights of homeless people to access accommodation, given the possibility of new social landlords through stock transfer.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the minister for the excellent measures she has outlined today. I would, however, like her views on the concerns that have been raised by Shelter regarding the rights of homeless people to access accommodation, given the possibility of new social landlords through stock transfer.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2123E103P242C711094", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27026, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 6.0, "ID": 27026, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Chisholm, Malcolm", "ID": 2123, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh North and Leith" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Malcolm Chisholm", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 86.0, "ContributionID": 711094, "EditedText": "I welcome the involvement of the health department, which addresses one of the weaknesses of the rough sleepers initiative. Can the minister give us any more detail about how she will ensure the involvement of health services at local level and what form that involvement may take?", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the involvement of the health department, which addresses one of the weaknesses of the rough sleepers initiative. Can the minister give us any more detail about how she will ensure the involvement of health services at local level and what form that involvement may take?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C711097", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27026, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 6.0, "ID": 27026, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 92.0, "ContributionID": 711097, "EditedText": "All those matters are under consideration by ministerial colleagues.", "EditedTextHTML": "All those matters are under consideration by ministerial colleagues.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C711101", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27026, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 6.0, "ID": 27026, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 100.0, "ContributionID": 711101, "EditedText": "I had not considered that, but given that one in 10 rough sleepers is an ex- serviceman, it seems a wholly fair suggestion. I am happy to raise that positively with the rough sleepers advisory group.", "EditedTextHTML": "I had not considered that, but given that one in 10 rough sleepers is an ex- serviceman, it seems a wholly fair suggestion. I am happy to raise that positively with the rough sleepers advisory group.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C711105", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister (Donald Dewar): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 110.0, "ContributionID": 711105, "EditedText": "I am happy to commend motion S1M-258 to the Parliament. Before I come to the meat of my speech, I must make an apology. Because of unexpected, but important, commitments, I fear that I will have to miss the end of this debate. I would not usually do that, but by the time it became clear that calls were being made on my time, it was a little late to spill the engagements or the debate into other hands. I will begin by considering the amendments. Rather uncharacteristically perhaps, I start with a congratulation to the Scottish Conservative party, whose amendment shows some evidence that it is learning from past disasters. The art of dissembling is not dead, perhaps, but I prefer to assume charitably that the amendment is an attempt at tact. Sweet reason is to be the order of the day—I hope, although we have not heard the speeches yet—and a moderate face is being constructed to mask the Conservatives' true position on Europe. We should encourage that sort of manoeuvre and offer it some recognition and reward. As my contribution to that process, I promise not to tell William Hague what the Scottish Conservatives are doing. I regret the fault line that has been built suddenly and brutally into Scottish and British politics on the question of our future in Europe. It is damaging and it is created for the worst sort of cynical purposes by the official Opposition in Westminster. I watched with horrid fascination—in the same way as one watches horror films late at night— proceedings at the Conservative party conference in Blackpool. The picture of Lord Tebbit appearing in our midst, confessing that he had been an unhappy Conservative for many years, but that this year he was a happy Conservative again, can—modestly, I think—be described as bad news for us all. I can only assume that William Hague is working on the assumption that his current stance will do something to rally the hard-line faithful—the blue-rinse brigade—and, frankly, is not worrying too much about the rest of the country. As Chris Patten delicately put it, enthusiastic support from Lord Tebbit \"might not be enough to sweep the country\".Most of us would endorse that view.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am happy to commend motion S1M-258 to the Parliament.

Before I come to the meat of my speech, I must make an apology. Because of unexpected, but important, commitments, I fear that I will have to miss the end of this debate. I would not usually do that, but by the time it became clear that calls were being made on my time, it was a little late to spill the engagements or the debate into other hands.

I will begin by considering the amendments. Rather uncharacteristically perhaps, I start with a congratulation to the Scottish Conservative party, whose amendment shows some evidence that it is learning from past disasters. The art of dissembling is not dead, perhaps, but I prefer to assume charitably that the amendment is an attempt at tact.

Sweet reason is to be the order of the day—I hope, although we have not heard the speeches yet—and a moderate face is being constructed to mask the Conservatives' true position on Europe. We should encourage that sort of manoeuvre and offer it some recognition and reward. As my contribution to that process, I promise not to tell William Hague what the Scottish Conservatives are doing.

I regret the fault line that has been built suddenly and brutally into Scottish and British politics on the question of our future in Europe. It is damaging and it is created for the worst sort of cynical purposes by the official Opposition in Westminster.

I watched with horrid fascination—in the same way as one watches horror films late at night— proceedings at the Conservative party conference in Blackpool. The picture of Lord Tebbit appearing in our midst, confessing that he had been an unhappy Conservative for many years, but that this year he was a happy Conservative again, can—modestly, I think—be described as bad news for us all. I can only assume that William Hague is working on the assumption that his current stance will do something to rally the hard-line faithful—the blue-rinse brigade—and, frankly, is not worrying too much about the rest of the country. As Chris Patten delicately put it, enthusiastic support from Lord Tebbit

\"might not be enough to sweep the country\".

Most of us would endorse that view.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C711107", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 114.0, "ContributionID": 711107, "EditedText": "I never thought that I would see the day when I would say that Phil Gallie's ambitions were over-modest. If he thinks that the Conservatives are sweeping the country now, Lord knows what he would do if they ever did. Fortunately, we will not have to put that to the test, at least in the foreseeable future. The heart of the Scottish Conservative party's amendment is that it \"does not believe that it would be in Scotland and Britain's interests to consider joining the single currency until its economic and political consequences have been properly assessed\". On the face of it, I do not greatly disapprove of that statement, although I must point out to the Conservatives that it is hardly the gospel according to St Margaret. I fear, however—I hope that people will not think that this is too cynical— that the real position of the Conservatives is very different. The national leader of the Conservative party says that he does not want to join the euro in this Parliament, he will not join it in the next Parliament and he will not change his mind. For him, it is a case of damn it and never mind the circumstances or the argument. The interesting thing, as I have hinted, is that that position has been well and truly rumbled by some rather unlikely people. John Major was once famously reported as saying that he could not see a certain group of Euro-sceptics without hearing the rustle of white coats. Tragically, on the evidence of recent events, the patients have taken over the asylum, leaving many distinguished Conservatives to rue and lament.", "EditedTextHTML": "I never thought that I would see the day when I would say that Phil Gallie's ambitions were over-modest. If he thinks that the Conservatives are sweeping the country now, Lord knows what he would do if they ever did. Fortunately, we will not have to put that to the test, at least in the foreseeable future.

The heart of the Scottish Conservative party's amendment is that it

\"does not believe that it would be in Scotland and Britain's interests to consider joining the single currency until its economic and political consequences have been properly assessed\".

On the face of it, I do not greatly disapprove of that statement, although I must point out to the Conservatives that it is hardly the gospel according to St Margaret. I fear, however—I hope that people will not think that this is too cynical— that the real position of the Conservatives is very different. The national leader of the Conservative party says that he does not want to join the euro in this Parliament, he will not join it in the next Parliament and he will not change his mind. For him, it is a case of damn it and never mind the circumstances or the argument.

The interesting thing, as I have hinted, is that that position has been well and truly rumbled by some rather unlikely people. John Major was once famously reported as saying that he could not see a certain group of Euro-sceptics without hearing the rustle of white coats. Tragically, on the evidence of recent events, the patients have taken over the asylum, leaving many distinguished Conservatives to rue and lament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C711116", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 132.0, "ContributionID": 711116, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C711117", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 134.0, "ContributionID": 711117, "EditedText": "I must push on.I am not frightened, apologetic or in any way put out by the prospect of a strong pound, because I know what goes with it. The strong economy of the United Kingdom is a great bulwark, a great safeguard and a great advantage for the economy of Scotland. I said that I thought it likely that the SNP's position smacked of expediency. I make my next point a little tentatively, because perhaps I, and not Mr Ben Wallace, will now be open to the charge of going back a little way in history. I remember Jim Sillars, who, of course, is now a non-person in the SNP, as I understand it—", "EditedTextHTML": "I must push on.

I am not frightened, apologetic or in any way put out by the prospect of a strong pound, because I know what goes with it. The strong economy of the United Kingdom is a great bulwark, a great safeguard and a great advantage for the economy of Scotland.

I said that I thought it likely that the SNP's position smacked of expediency. I make my next point a little tentatively, because perhaps I, and not Mr Ben Wallace, will now be open to the charge of going back a little way in history. I remember Jim Sillars, who, of course, is now a non-person in the SNP, as I understand it—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C711112", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Alex Salmond (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 124.0, "ContributionID": 711112, "EditedText": "If the difference between European and UK interest rates is the result only of cyclical factors, as the First Minister suggests, will he tell the Parliament in how many years during the past quarter century deutschmark short-term interest rates have been higher than sterling interest rates?", "EditedTextHTML": "If the difference between European and UK interest rates is the result only of cyclical factors, as the First Minister suggests, will he tell the Parliament in how many years during the past quarter century deutschmark short-term interest rates have been higher than sterling interest rates?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1828E200P487C711124", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacDonald, Margo", "ID": 1828, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margo MacDonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms MacDonald: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 148.0, "ContributionID": 711124, "EditedText": "My memory goes back even further than the First Minister's. I campaigned alongside my husband—although we were not then married—and Teddy Taylor. We campaigned as Scotland United, because we were opposed, for our different reasons, to entry to the EEC. I cannot remember what Jim wrote in a pamphlet, although if the First Minister sends me a copy, I will verify whether he has got it right.", "EditedTextHTML": "My memory goes back even further than the First Minister's. I campaigned alongside my husband—although we were not then married—and Teddy Taylor. We campaigned as Scotland United, because we were opposed, for our different reasons, to entry to the EEC. I cannot remember what Jim wrote in a pamphlet, although if the First Minister sends me a copy, I will verify whether he has got it right.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C711127", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 154.0, "ContributionID": 711127, "EditedText": "Well, there is a happy conjunction of coincidence. Perhaps I am being a little unfair, because I do not think that Margo MacDonald ever campaigned for the Labour party, but Jim certainly did, in those early days. My point is simply that the pamphlet that he wrote in the early 1980s, just at the point when the SNP came out strongly for Europe, put the case very clearly indeed. I will now turn to the positive case, and the Labour party's position—Interruption. I am being barracked, but I do not want the protection of the chair. Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP)rose—", "EditedTextHTML": "Well, there is a happy conjunction of coincidence. Perhaps I am being a little unfair, because I do not think that Margo MacDonald ever campaigned for the Labour party, but Jim certainly did, in those early days. My point is simply that the pamphlet that he wrote in the early 1980s, just at the point when the SNP came out strongly for Europe, put the case very clearly indeed.

I will now turn to the positive case, and the Labour party's position—[Interruption.] I am being barracked, but I do not want the protection of the chair.

Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP)

rose—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C711133", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan (Falkirk West): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 166.0, "ContributionID": 711133, "EditedText": "Hear, hear.", "EditedTextHTML": "Hear, hear.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C711135", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Alex Salmond (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 171.0, "ContributionID": 711135, "EditedText": "Although the First Minister's motion talks about a positive attitude to Europe, the balance between the negative and the positive in his address was somewhat askew. We had 15 minutes of negative attacks on other parties before we had the five- minute positive bit. As for that positive bit, when Donald was challenged about the deal that Scotland gets from Europe, he said that we get a good deal from structural funding. Indeed, we do get a good deal from structural funding. Unfortunately, as we have heard in previous debates, the funds are promptly deducted from the Scottish block because of the Government's refusal to respect additionality—the good deal that we get from Europe is promptly deducted by the United Kingdom Treasury. Responding to Donald directly, I have to apologise to him. In a question, I said that deutschmark short-term interest rates had been above those of the United Kingdom in one year of the past 25. Looking at the table, I realise that I should have said one year in the past 27. None the less, that still makes the point that Donald's claim that what is happening now is a short-term aberration—that European interest rates might at some point in the future be above those of sterling—is not confirmed by the experience of the past quarter century. I remember Donald Dewar's life history. Although I accept that he has been making up for lost time over the past few weeks, he got his first passport at the age of 50.", "EditedTextHTML": "Although the First Minister's motion talks about a positive attitude to Europe, the balance between the negative and the positive in his address was somewhat askew. We had 15 minutes of negative attacks on other parties before we had the five- minute positive bit.

As for that positive bit, when Donald was challenged about the deal that Scotland gets from Europe, he said that we get a good deal from structural funding. Indeed, we do get a good deal from structural funding. Unfortunately, as we have heard in previous debates, the funds are promptly deducted from the Scottish block because of the Government's refusal to respect additionality—the good deal that we get from Europe is promptly deducted by the United Kingdom Treasury.

Responding to Donald directly, I have to apologise to him. In a question, I said that deutschmark short-term interest rates had been above those of the United Kingdom in one year of the past 25. Looking at the table, I realise that I should have said one year in the past 27. None the less, that still makes the point that Donald's claim that what is happening now is a short-term aberration—that European interest rates might at some point in the future be above those of sterling—is not confirmed by the experience of the past quarter century.

I remember Donald Dewar's life history. Although I accept that he has been making up for lost time over the past few weeks, he got his first passport at the age of 50.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C711141", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 183.0, "ContributionID": 711141, "EditedText": "In a minute, Phil; I want to make progress. The First Minister says that we should welcome the fact that sterling is a strong currency. I wish he would tell that to the Scottish farming industry. The most important reason for the general recession in Scottish farming is a 20 per cent over-valuation of the pound sterling. That is more important than BSE—dreadful though that has been—and more important than the on-costs, because the farmers are directly in competition in a single marketplace and directly responsive to developments across Europe. The First Minister should also try telling it to the Scottish textile industry. I do not know whether he has noticed, but that industry has been decimated by the lack of competitiveness and the exchange rate of sterling. We have had closure after closure. The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning (Henry McLeish) indicated disagreement.", "EditedTextHTML": "In a minute, Phil; I want to make progress.

The First Minister says that we should welcome the fact that sterling is a strong currency. I wish he would tell that to the Scottish farming industry. The most important reason for the general recession in Scottish farming is a 20 per cent over-valuation of the pound sterling. That is more important than BSE—dreadful though that has been—and more important than the on-costs, because the farmers are directly in competition in a single marketplace and directly responsive to developments across Europe.

The First Minister should also try telling it to the Scottish textile industry. I do not know whether he has noticed, but that industry has been decimated by the lack of competitiveness and the exchange rate of sterling. We have had closure after closure.

The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning (Henry McLeish) indicated disagreement.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C711142", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 185.0, "ContributionID": 711142, "EditedText": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning is in denial. The first thing that his department says when there is a closure is that the closure has nothing to do with the exchange rate. How on earth can it have nothing to do with the exchange rate? How on earth can a 20 per cent over-valuation of sterling—compared with the average over the past 10 years—have nothing to do with the competitive position of Scottish industry? What nonsense. Sterling is a uniquely volatile currency—99 per cent of its value is denominated by capital flows and not by trade movements.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning is in denial. The first thing that his department says when there is a closure is that the closure has nothing to do with the exchange rate. How on earth can it have nothing to do with the exchange rate? How on earth can a 20 per cent over-valuation of sterling—compared with the average over the past 10 years—have nothing to do with the competitive position of Scottish industry? What nonsense.

Sterling is a uniquely volatile currency—99 per cent of its value is denominated by capital flows and not by trade movements.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5764209+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C711146", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 193.0, "ContributionID": 711146, "EditedText": "The last time that I heard a minister argue that case was in the House of Commons when Lady Thatcher told the Labour benches that the market could not be bucked over sterling.", "EditedTextHTML": "The last time that I heard a minister argue that case was in the House of Commons when Lady Thatcher told the Labour benches that the market could not be bucked over sterling.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5764209+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C711147", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 195.0, "ContributionID": 711147, "EditedText": "Answer the question.", "EditedTextHTML": "Answer the question.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5764209+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C711148", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 197.0, "ContributionID": 711148, "EditedText": "I would converge the interest rates of the United Kingdom with those of the euro area. I would then watch sterling move down to a more competitive level. The First Minister indicated disagreement.", "EditedTextHTML": "I would converge the interest rates of the United Kingdom with those of the euro area. I would then watch sterling move down to a more competitive level.

The First Minister indicated disagreement.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5764209+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C711150", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 201.0, "ContributionID": 711150, "EditedText": "Does Mr Salmond think that the First Minister lacks enthusiasm for euro because he thinks that joining the euro will eventually mean tax harmonisation? To go down that road would be bad for Scotland, given that our current tax take against gross domestic product is very low.", "EditedTextHTML": "Does Mr Salmond think that the First Minister lacks enthusiasm for euro because he thinks that joining the euro will eventually mean tax harmonisation? To go down that road would be bad for Scotland, given that our current tax take against gross domestic product is very low.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5764209+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C711152", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 205.0, "ContributionID": 711152, "EditedText": "I do not believe that the euro will lead to tax harmonisation. Oskar Lafontaine argued that it would—he did not last long as German finance minister. I agree with the First Minster and he agrees—he will be disappointed to hear—with Phil Gallie. I do not believe in tax harmonisation across the euro area; it is not an inevitable result of the single currency. In summing up, I will talk about a different perspective of Scotland's position in Europe—not the regional perspective that the First Minster shares with the Conservative party, but the perspective of Scotland as an independent nation in Europe. As an independent country, Scotland would have 99 per cent control of fiscal policy compared to this Parliament's 10 per cent control. I want to talk about the advantages of Scotland having real access to the Council of Ministers and being part of the decision-making structure. As an independent country, we would have double the number of seats in the European Parliament. We would have nine seats on the Economic and Social Committee and more seats on the Committee of the Regions. Scotland would be able to take a turn in the presidency of the European Union—leading Europe, as small countries are doing now and have done many times. We would be part of the decision-making structures of the Community; we would be a full member of the Community and we would have equality of status in that Community. What underlies the difference between the First Minister and me is not simply a disagreement about what the key bodies in the Community are or whether a lobbying office or a seat at the table would be best for Scotland. What underlies the difference between us is a different perspective on what Scotland is and can be. The First Minister wants regional status for Scotland in Europe. I and the SNP want equality of status—Scotland as an independent nation in Europe. I move amendment S1M-258.1, to leave out from \"Scottish Executive's\" to end and insert: \"view that Scotland should play an active and positive role within the European Union; recognises that our full participation in the EU and early entry into the Euro is vital to business and jobs and the future economic success and prosperity of Scotland, and believes that Scottish businesses, communities and families will be best served by an independent Scotland playing its full and proper role in the EU.\"", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not believe that the euro will lead to tax harmonisation. Oskar Lafontaine argued that it would—he did not last long as German finance minister. I agree with the First Minster and he agrees—he will be disappointed to hear—with Phil Gallie. I do not believe in tax harmonisation across the euro area; it is not an inevitable result of the single currency.

In summing up, I will talk about a different perspective of Scotland's position in Europe—not the regional perspective that the First Minster shares with the Conservative party, but the perspective of Scotland as an independent nation in Europe. As an independent country, Scotland would have 99 per cent control of fiscal policy compared to this Parliament's 10 per cent control.

I want to talk about the advantages of Scotland having real access to the Council of Ministers and being part of the decision-making structure. As an independent country, we would have double the number of seats in the European Parliament. We would have nine seats on the Economic and Social Committee and more seats on the Committee of the Regions. Scotland would be able to take a turn in the presidency of the European Union—leading Europe, as small countries are doing now and have done many times. We would be part of the decision-making structures of the Community; we would be a full member of the Community and we would have equality of status in that Community.

What underlies the difference between the First Minister and me is not simply a disagreement about what the key bodies in the Community are or whether a lobbying office or a seat at the table would be best for Scotland. What underlies the difference between us is a different perspective on what Scotland is and can be. The First Minister wants regional status for Scotland in Europe. I and the SNP want equality of status—Scotland as an independent nation in Europe.

I move amendment S1M-258.1, to leave out from \"Scottish Executive's\" to end and insert:

\"view that Scotland should play an active and positive role within the European Union; recognises that our full participation in the EU and early entry into the Euro is vital to business and jobs and the future economic success and prosperity of Scotland, and believes that Scottish businesses, communities and families will be best served by an independent Scotland playing its full and proper role in the EU.\"

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5764209+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C711154", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon (Argyll and Bute) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 210.0, "ContributionID": 711154, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5764209+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C711160", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 222.0, "ContributionID": 711160, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5764209+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C711161", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 224.0, "ContributionID": 711161, "EditedText": "I am sorry, but Mr Dewar isnext.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry, but Mr Dewar is

next.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5764209+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C711162", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 226.0, "ContributionID": 711162, "EditedText": "I ask this question in a spirit of genuine inquiry. Mr Hague has indicated that he wants to renegotiate many of the terms of the present treaty. Famously, he suggested that any country should have the right to opt out of decisions that are made on the basis of qualified majority voting. Is that the position of the Conservative party, or is Mr McLetchie overruling Mr Hague?", "EditedTextHTML": "I ask this question in a spirit of genuine inquiry. Mr Hague has indicated that he wants to renegotiate many of the terms of the present treaty. Famously, he suggested that any country should have the right to opt out of decisions that are made on the basis of qualified majority voting. Is that the position of the Conservative party, or is Mr McLetchie overruling Mr Hague?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5764209+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C711163", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 228.0, "ContributionID": 711163, "EditedText": "Mr Dewar has again misrepresented the position of my party. The party's position in relation to flexibility applies to new legislative proposals for developing the Community further that might emerge. The Conservative party will not renege on any of the treaty obligations that this country has undertaken.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Dewar has again misrepresented the position of my party. The party's position in relation to flexibility applies to new legislative proposals for developing the Community further that might emerge. The Conservative party will not renege on any of the treaty obligations that this country has undertaken.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5764209+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C711164", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 230.0, "ContributionID": 711164, "EditedText": "The Conservatives want to renegotiate.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Conservatives want to renegotiate.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5764209+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C711166", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 234.0, "ContributionID": 711166, "EditedText": "The confusion of the First Minister seems to be shared by Malcolm Rifkind, whom the Scotsman of 7 October reported as warning Mr Hague that the Conservatives must back away from demands to renegotiate as they were \"little more than a euphemism for us to quit Europe\".Mr McLetchie has already defied Douglas Hurd. Will he now defy Mr Rifkind?", "EditedTextHTML": "The confusion of the First Minister seems to be shared by Malcolm Rifkind, whom the Scotsman of 7 October reported as warning Mr Hague that the Conservatives must back away from demands to renegotiate as they were

\"little more than a euphemism for us to quit Europe\".

Mr McLetchie has already defied Douglas Hurd. Will he now defy Mr Rifkind?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5764209+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C711170", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 242.0, "ContributionID": 711170, "EditedText": "That is a very sensible policy, because it would allow a judgment to be made that would stand throughout the duration of the economic cycle. It seems to me, after reading the press reports, that that is a policy for which the Chancellor of the Exchequer has a good deal more sympathy than he had a few months ago. It seems to be an eminently sensible solution. It is time to acknowledge that the diversities that are undoubtedly manifest throughout Europe are natural and desirable. They are not something to be ashamed of, to be brushed under the carpet. It is our challenge to reflect Europe's diversity in European Union flexibility. That is why we have made it clear that, if the next EU treaty does not contain a flexibility clause, our party will oppose signing up to it.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is a very sensible policy, because it would allow a judgment to be made that would stand throughout the duration of the economic cycle. It seems to me, after reading the press reports, that that is a policy for which the Chancellor of the Exchequer has a good deal more sympathy than he had a few months ago. It seems to be an eminently sensible solution.

It is time to acknowledge that the diversities that are undoubtedly manifest throughout Europe are natural and desirable. They are not something to be ashamed of, to be brushed under the carpet. It is our challenge to reflect Europe's diversity in European Union flexibility. That is why we have made it clear that, if the next EU treaty does not contain a flexibility clause, our party will oppose signing up to it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4513966+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2223E203P342C711177", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scott, Tavish", "ID": 2223, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Shetland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tavish Scott", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tavish Scott: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 257.0, "ContributionID": 711177, "EditedText": "Someone who is dear to you, Brian.", "EditedTextHTML": "Someone who is dear to you, Brian.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4513966+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2223E203P342C711179", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scott, Tavish", "ID": 2223, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Shetland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tavish Scott", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tavish Scott: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 261.0, "ContributionID": 711179, "EditedText": "Mr Monteith gets so many things wrong. The constituency is Orkney and Shetland. Scotland needs to benefit from the European drive—I know that the Tories do not like it, but that is what happens in the real world, not in the world that they live in—towards opportunities to create jobs. Presumably, the Tories are against that as well. Scotland needs to benefit from the drive towards stable prices, greater wealth creation prospects, increased security, an extension of democracy and a clean environment. However, we need a better debate, which raises the stakes on the euro. The Liberal Democrats are committed to joining the single currency to prevent Scotland and the United Kingdom being marginalised by an unstable and uncompetitive currency, to prevent even higher costs to business and to prevent risks to investment. Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con)rose—", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Monteith gets so many things wrong. The constituency is Orkney and Shetland.

Scotland needs to benefit from the European drive—I know that the Tories do not like it, but that is what happens in the real world, not in the world that they live in—towards opportunities to create jobs. Presumably, the Tories are against that as well. Scotland needs to benefit from the drive towards stable prices, greater wealth creation prospects, increased security, an extension of democracy and a clean environment. However, we need a better debate, which raises the stakes on the euro. The Liberal Democrats are committed to joining the single currency to prevent Scotland and the United Kingdom being marginalised by an unstable and uncompetitive currency, to prevent even higher costs to business and to prevent risks to investment.

Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con)

rose—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4513966+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2223E203P342C711180", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scott, Tavish", "ID": 2223, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Shetland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tavish Scott", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tavish Scott: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 263.0, "ContributionID": 711180, "EditedText": "Forgive me, but I must move on.Adopting the euro will improve trade with our nearest neighbours, reduce costs and deliver lower interest rates. As a farmer who exports lambs to southern Mediterranean countries, I appreciate from a business perspective, which may be alien to some Tory members, the need for stable exchange rates. Scotland's agricultural organisations, particularly the National Farmers Union, have argued for and supported the euro. Liberal Democrats are taking a positive approach—", "EditedTextHTML": "Forgive me, but I must move on.

Adopting the euro will improve trade with our nearest neighbours, reduce costs and deliver lower interest rates. As a farmer who exports lambs to southern Mediterranean countries, I appreciate from a business perspective, which may be alien to some Tory members, the need for stable exchange rates. Scotland's agricultural organisations, particularly the National Farmers Union, have argued for and supported the euro. Liberal Democrats are taking a positive approach—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4513966+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C711183", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 269.0, "ContributionID": 711183, "EditedText": "Opening statements overran significantly, which means that speeches will now be limited.", "EditedTextHTML": "Opening statements overran significantly, which means that speeches will now be limited.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4513966+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C711185", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 274.0, "ContributionID": 711185, "EditedText": "If Lewis is so keen to join the single currency almost instantly, does he feel that the euro zone interest rate of 3 per cent is appropriate for the United Kingdom at this time? If so, have the First Minister and others made representations to the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Bank of England Monetary Policy Committee on that point?", "EditedTextHTML": "If Lewis is so keen to join the single currency almost instantly, does he feel that the euro zone interest rate of 3 per cent is appropriate for the United Kingdom at this time? If so, have the First Minister and others made representations to the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Bank of England Monetary Policy Committee on that point?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4513966+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2117E79P104C711186", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macdonald, Lewis", "ID": 2117, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lewis Macdonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Lewis Macdonald: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 276.0, "ContributionID": 711186, "EditedText": "I did not suggest to the chamber that we should move into the euro zone immediately. In principle, it is the correct place to be. However, we should reject the Conservatives rejection of that for at least a whole Parliament, and turn down the opportunity offered to us by the SNP, that Scotland should be in one currency zone while England is in another. Rather, we should go for a positive vision of a Europe growing closer together on terms that suit our interests. The correct way forward is Scotland in a devolved Britain as part of a Europe of the regions.", "EditedTextHTML": "I did not suggest to the chamber that we should move into the euro zone immediately. In principle, it is the correct place to be. However, we should reject the Conservatives rejection of that for at least a whole Parliament, and turn down the opportunity offered to us by the SNP, that Scotland should be in one currency zone while England is in another. Rather, we should go for a positive vision of a Europe growing closer together on terms that suit our interests. The correct way forward is Scotland in a devolved Britain as part of a Europe of the regions.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4513966+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1916E38P70C711196", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Ben", "ID": 1916, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ben Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ben Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 299.0, "ContributionID": 711196, "EditedText": "There are many aspects of theworking time directive that still need to be sorted out. In its present form—", "EditedTextHTML": "There are many aspects of the

working time directive that still need to be sorted out. In its present form—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4513966+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1878E208P502C711197", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Dr Winnie", "ID": 1878, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Winnie Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 301.0, "ContributionID": 711197, "EditedText": "Fishing.", "EditedTextHTML": "Fishing.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4513966+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1916E38P70C711188", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Ben", "ID": 1916, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ben Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ben Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 281.0, "ContributionID": 711188, "EditedText": "Will Dr Ewing give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Dr Ewing give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4513966+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1916E38P70C711194", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Ben", "ID": 1916, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ben Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ben Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 295.0, "ContributionID": 711194, "EditedText": "I will not give way to Mr Raffan. I never like to. He goes on and on. By staying out of the euro, we will be able to set interest rates appropriate to our situation. Contrary to the Labour spin, we will be more influential, not less. Instead of being one vote out of 12 in matters that affect European Union economies, we will have power over our economic affairs. We can continue with the low social costs, the flexible labour laws and the competitive corporation tax regimes that have allowed us to enjoy—", "EditedTextHTML": "I will not give way to Mr Raffan. I never like to. He goes on and on.

By staying out of the euro, we will be able to set interest rates appropriate to our situation. Contrary to the Labour spin, we will be more influential, not less. Instead of being one vote out of 12 in matters that affect European Union economies, we will have power over our economic affairs. We can continue with the low social costs, the flexible labour laws and the competitive corporation tax regimes that have allowed us to enjoy—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4513966+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1752E75P296C711195", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jamieson, Cathy", "ID": 1752, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Cathy Jamieson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Cathy Jamieson (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 297.0, "ContributionID": 711195, "EditedText": "Mr Wallace talks about flexible labour markets and lower costs. Does that mean that he would continue to support the Conservative party's policy of not introducing the working time directive or some of the other social benefits that Europe legislation has introduced on working conditions?", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Wallace talks about flexible labour markets and lower costs. Does that mean that he would continue to support the Conservative party's policy of not introducing the working time directive or some of the other social benefits that Europe legislation has introduced on working conditions?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4513966+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1916E38P70C711198", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Ben", "ID": 1916, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ben Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ben Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 303.0, "ContributionID": 711198, "EditedText": "Yes, fishing is one example.We will not lose out on trade. The City of London trades more dollars yen and dollars deutschmarks than Frankfurt and New York combined. Those will not be lost if we were to stay out of the euro. Canada, which neighbours the most powerful economy in the world, has never felt it necessary to rid itself of its own currency. The future of Europe in the euro is one of a further step towards political integration. In November 1997, the then Chancellor of Germany, Helmut Kohl, said: \"We want political unification of Europe. If there is no monetary union then there cannot be political unification of Europe. If there is no monetary union then there cannot be political union and vice-versa\". We do not want to be dragged into a federal Europe, behind a federal currency. The existence of the Scottish Parliament can be put down partly to the frustration of Scots who felt so removed from the decision making in Westminster that they brought the politicians back home. Perhaps that is why Mr Salmond is so keen to support the idea of the euro and a more distant Europe. The Executive must come clean. Does it want the euro or not? When will it enter the euro? Will it let the many Labour members who oppose it— Donald Dewar talked about the past, but at present, 22 Labour MPs are part of the save the pound, euro guard and new Europe campaigns— speak against it. A few weeks ago, I spent some time with Frank Field, discussing those very problems. Frank Field is not in the Labour party's past. The party should come clean and allow its members to speak out.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes, fishing is one example.

We will not lose out on trade. The City of London trades more dollars yen and dollars deutschmarks than Frankfurt and New York combined. Those will not be lost if we were to stay out of the euro. Canada, which neighbours the most powerful economy in the world, has never felt it necessary to rid itself of its own currency.

The future of Europe in the euro is one of a further step towards political integration. In November 1997, the then Chancellor of Germany, Helmut Kohl, said:

\"We want political unification of Europe. If there is no monetary union then there cannot be political unification of Europe. If there is no monetary union then there cannot be political union and vice-versa\".

We do not want to be dragged into a federal Europe, behind a federal currency.

The existence of the Scottish Parliament can be put down partly to the frustration of Scots who felt so removed from the decision making in Westminster that they brought the politicians back home. Perhaps that is why Mr Salmond is so keen to support the idea of the euro and a more distant Europe.

The Executive must come clean. Does it want the euro or not? When will it enter the euro? Will it let the many Labour members who oppose it— Donald Dewar talked about the past, but at present, 22 Labour MPs are part of the save the pound, euro guard and new Europe campaigns— speak against it. A few weeks ago, I spent some time with Frank Field, discussing those very problems. Frank Field is not in the Labour party's past. The party should come clean and allow its members to speak out.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4513966+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C711200", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 307.0, "ContributionID": 711200, "EditedText": "Please clarify and close, Mr Wallace.", "EditedTextHTML": "Please clarify and close, Mr Wallace.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4513966+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1916E38P70C711201", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Ben", "ID": 1916, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ben Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ben Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 309.0, "ContributionID": 711201, "EditedText": "I will state the policy. We believe that, for this Parliament and the next Parliament, we will oppose the existence of the euro. We believe that the euro will lead to a federal European state and we oppose it. The Executive must come clean. Will it let the Labour members who do not agree with the euro speak out, or will those members be made to keep quiet, like the six Labour MEPs who suddenly disappeared off the proportional representation list at the last election? The Conservative party is pro-Europe, and if it were not for the fact that Labour's agenda of euro membership is being hidden from the electorate, I am sure that all members would have supported the motion. However, like the 5,000 extra policemen, one always has to dig a little deeper to find the truth behind new Labour.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will state the policy. We believe that, for this Parliament and the next Parliament, we will oppose the existence of the euro. We believe that the euro will lead to a federal European state and we oppose it.

The Executive must come clean. Will it let the Labour members who do not agree with the euro speak out, or will those members be made to keep quiet, like the six Labour MEPs who suddenly disappeared off the proportional representation list at the last election?

The Conservative party is pro-Europe, and if it were not for the fact that Labour's agenda of euro membership is being hidden from the electorate, I am sure that all members would have supported the motion. However, like the 5,000 extra policemen, one always has to dig a little deeper to find the truth behind new Labour.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4513966+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1752E75P296C711203", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jamieson, Cathy", "ID": 1752, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Cathy Jamieson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Cathy Jamieson (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 315.0, "ContributionID": 711203, "EditedText": "The question was asked, in relation to some of the former Labour MEPs who are no longer with us, if I can put it that way, whether Labour members are allowed to speak out. As the former election agent for one of those former MEPs, I can safely say that I intend to say my piece. I am living proof that the Labour party, old, new, call it what you like, is here and is ready to engage in the debate in a positive and constructive manner. This is the beginning of a debate on Europe— not the end. It is not the case that today we will vote on whether we join the euro. The UK Government has made its position clear. It will look to join at an appropriate time, when it is in the best interests of the country and when the people agree that that is the case. I think that means that the debate still has a considerable way to go. As a member of the European Committee, I get loads of paperwork and I sometimes find interesting snippets of information. The UK is doing well on employment creation. That is reflected in the 1999 joint employment report from the European Union, which examines employment in the various member states. However, the report highlights a warning that is particularly relevant to my constituency: \"Against this relatively favourable background in the EU context, the UK labour market continues to display a significant share of young people, especially male, out of work or education, persistent pockets of long-term unemployment and/or inactivity among older people\". That is the agenda which we ought to address with the other member states. How are we to tackle the unemployment that has persisted for a substantial length of time? How will we regenerate local communities, and how will we do it in a way that balances the needs of inward investors with those of the indigenous community? It has been said repeatedly today that we must be in control of our own destiny and that the Tories would opt out of certain matters if they had their way. Let me tell members, if they have not already worked it out: it is not as simple as that, as we live in a global economy. That was made clear at a meeting that I attended at lunchtime today. That meeting was arranged so that some of the issues that will be on the agenda at the forthcoming World Trade Organisation conference could be addressed. One was: \"Trade agreements already have an impact. Narrow commercial issues are being allowed to overturn rules on public health, the environment and support for small farmers. The WTO rules are failing to protect EU consumers from imports of hormone-injected beef; failing small banana farmers in the Caribbean and failing to conserve the environment. Even the EU's regulations on genetically modified crops and labelling for GM foods are likely to come under threat from a challenge at the WTO by the US.\" That is the reality of our global economy. We ignore it at our peril.", "EditedTextHTML": "The question was asked, in relation to some of the former Labour MEPs who are no longer with us, if I can put it that way, whether Labour members are allowed to speak out. As the former election agent for one of those former MEPs, I can safely say that I intend to say my piece. I am living proof that the Labour party, old, new, call it what you like, is here and is ready to engage in the debate in a positive and constructive manner.

This is the beginning of a debate on Europe— not the end. It is not the case that today we will vote on whether we join the euro. The UK Government has made its position clear. It will look to join at an appropriate time, when it is in the best interests of the country and when the people agree that that is the case. I think that means that the debate still has a considerable way to go.

As a member of the European Committee, I get loads of paperwork and I sometimes find interesting snippets of information. The UK is doing well on employment creation. That is reflected in the 1999 joint employment report from the European Union, which examines employment in the various member states. However, the report highlights a warning that is particularly relevant to my constituency:

\"Against this relatively favourable background in the EU context, the UK labour market continues to display a significant share of young people, especially male, out of work or education, persistent pockets of long-term unemployment and/or inactivity among older people\".

That is the agenda which we ought to address with the other member states. How are we to tackle the unemployment that has persisted for a substantial length of time? How will we regenerate local communities, and how will we do it in a way that balances the needs of inward investors with those of the indigenous community?

It has been said repeatedly today that we must be in control of our own destiny and that the Tories would opt out of certain matters if they had their way. Let me tell members, if they have not already worked it out: it is not as simple as that, as we live in a global economy. That was made clear at a meeting that I attended at lunchtime today.

That meeting was arranged so that some of the issues that will be on the agenda at the forthcoming World Trade Organisation conference could be addressed. One was:

\"Trade agreements already have an impact. Narrow commercial issues are being allowed to overturn rules on public health, the environment and support for small farmers. The WTO rules are failing to protect EU consumers from imports of hormone-injected beef; failing small banana farmers in the Caribbean and failing to conserve the environment. Even the EU's regulations on genetically modified crops and labelling for GM foods are likely to come under threat from a challenge at the WTO by the US.\"

That is the reality of our global economy. We ignore it at our peril.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4513966+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1893E47P78C711206", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnstone, Alex", "ID": 1893, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Johnstone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Johnstone (North-East Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 322.0, "ContributionID": 711206, "EditedText": "How could he have known what the member would ask?", "EditedTextHTML": "How could he have known what the member would ask?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4513966+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C711207", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 324.0, "ContributionID": 711207, "EditedText": "He never does answer questions, so why should he change now? One must admit that there is a neat symmetrybetween the Conservative party and the Scottish National party. The Conservative party was passionately pro-Europe back in the early 1970s and it took us into Europe. Now it is bitterly hostile; it is a party of bunker Toryism.", "EditedTextHTML": "He never does answer questions, so why should he change now?

One must admit that there is a neat symmetry

between the Conservative party and the Scottish National party. The Conservative party was passionately pro-Europe back in the early 1970s and it took us into Europe. Now it is bitterly hostile; it is a party of bunker Toryism.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4513966+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C711212", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 334.0, "ContributionID": 711212, "EditedText": "Can Mr Raffan tell me whether the Liberal Democrat policy on the euro is the same as the Labour party's policy? If not, what are the points of difference?", "EditedTextHTML": "Can Mr Raffan tell me whether the Liberal Democrat policy on the euro is the same as the Labour party's policy? If not, what are the points of difference?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4513966+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C711224", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 359.0, "ContributionID": 711224, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4513966+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C711225", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Goldie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 361.0, "ContributionID": 711225, "EditedText": "The Scottish Conservatives' stance is not, \"Non, non, non.\" It is, \"Nous pouvons faire mieux.\" In case the language skills of my friends in the chamber are on a par with their Latin, that is the French for, \"We can do better.\" By \"we\", the Scottish Conservatives mean not just this chamber, or Scotland, but the United Kingdom. We contend that we can do better. We believe that within Europe we can press for enlargement to be made a top priority, not from some doctrinaire view, but because it is an historic opportunity to advance free trade, free markets, deregulation and co-operation.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Scottish Conservatives' stance is not, \"Non, non, non.\" It is, \"Nous pouvons faire mieux.\" In case the language skills of my friends in the chamber are on a par with their Latin, that is the French for, \"We can do better.\" By \"we\", the Scottish Conservatives mean not just this chamber, or Scotland, but the United Kingdom.

We contend that we can do better. We believe that within Europe we can press for enlargement to be made a top priority, not from some doctrinaire view, but because it is an historic opportunity to advance free trade, free markets, deregulation and co-operation.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4513966+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C711226", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 363.0, "ContributionID": 711226, "EditedText": "Ben Wallace's view was that the euro inevitably meant a federal state, which implies that the Conservative party could never be in favour of the euro. What is the Conservative position? Does the euro inevitably mean a federal state? Does that imply that the Conservatives can never support it?", "EditedTextHTML": "Ben Wallace's view was that the euro inevitably meant a federal state, which implies that the Conservative party could never be in favour of the euro. What is the Conservative position? Does the euro inevitably mean a federal state? Does that imply that the Conservatives can never support it?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4513966+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2117E79P104C711231", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macdonald, Lewis", "ID": 2117, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lewis Macdonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Lewis Macdonald: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 374.0, "ContributionID": 711231, "EditedText": "Does the member accept that the leader of his party, Mr Salmond, spent 14 minutes and 50 seconds attacking the Executive and one minute and 35 seconds promoting the SNP's policies?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the member accept that the leader of his party, Mr Salmond, spent 14 minutes and 50 seconds attacking the Executive and one minute and 35 seconds promoting the SNP's policies?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4513966+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1863E284P532C711234", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Cunningham, Roseanna", "ID": 1863, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Perth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Roseanna Cunningham", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Roseanna Cunningham (Perth) (SNP) rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 381.0, "ContributionID": 711234, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4513966+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1863E284P532C711236", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Cunningham, Roseanna", "ID": 1863, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Perth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Roseanna Cunningham", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Roseanna Cunningham: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 385.0, "ContributionID": 711236, "EditedText": "I am grateful to the minister for advising us that all the ministers in the Executive have European responsibilities with regard to their respective interests. Can he provide the Parliament with the details of his attendance at the informal justice ministers meeting at Tampere on 16 September, or was he not there? What about the justice and home affairs meeting of the Council of Ministers on 4 October in Luxembourg or the European summit at Tampere, or was he not there either? Is not the truth that the ministers of this Executive are not attending any of the relevant meetings?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful to the minister for advising us that all the ministers in the Executive have European responsibilities with regard to their respective interests. Can he provide the Parliament with the details of his attendance at the informal justice ministers meeting at Tampere on 16 September, or was he not there? What about the justice and home affairs meeting of the Council of Ministers on 4 October in Luxembourg or the European summit at Tampere, or was he not there either? Is not the truth that the ministers of this Executive are not attending any of the relevant meetings?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4513966+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1863E284P532C711238", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Cunningham, Roseanna", "ID": 1863, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Perth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Roseanna Cunningham", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Roseanna Cunningham rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 389.0, "ContributionID": 711238, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4513966+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C711240", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 393.0, "ContributionID": 711240, "EditedText": "No, I have given way to the lady already and she made a speech. The other point that we—", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I have given way to the lady already and she made a speech.

The other point that we—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4513966+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C711243", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 399.0, "ContributionID": 711243, "EditedText": "The next meeting of the agricultural ministers may be about flax and hemp, but a meeting two months ago was about animal diseases such as the one affecting the salmon industry in Scotland. Why were ministers from the Scottish Executive not there?", "EditedTextHTML": "The next meeting of the agricultural ministers may be about flax and hemp, but a meeting two months ago was about animal diseases such as the one affecting the salmon industry in Scotland. Why were ministers from the Scottish Executive not there?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4513966+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C711244", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 401.0, "ContributionID": 711244, "EditedText": "I have already made it clear that Scottish ministers and officials have a direct input to those meetings. For example, Mr John Home Robertson not only attended the most recent Fisheries Council, but led for the United Kingdom.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have already made it clear that Scottish ministers and officials have a direct input to those meetings. For example, Mr John Home Robertson not only attended the most recent Fisheries Council, but led for the United Kingdom.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4513966+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C711251", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 415.0, "ContributionID": 711251, "EditedText": "A very clear campaign is going on, to spell out the advantages of a positive engagement by Scotland and the United Kingdom in Europe. That contrasts greatly with the negative attitude that we see from the Conservative party, which takes the line of, \"Lord, make me pure, but not yet.\" We never hear whether it actually wants British membership of the euro. As a Liberal Democrat, my position is clear: I favour early entry by the United Kingdom to the single currency.", "EditedTextHTML": "A very clear campaign is going on, to spell out the advantages of a positive engagement by Scotland and the United Kingdom in Europe. That contrasts greatly with the negative attitude that we see from the Conservative party, which takes the line of, \"Lord, make me pure, but not yet.\" We never hear whether it actually wants British membership of the euro. As a Liberal Democrat, my position is clear: I favour early entry by the United Kingdom to the single currency.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C711254", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 421.0, "ContributionID": 711254, "EditedText": "Oh, please. Laughter.", "EditedTextHTML": "Oh, please. [Laughter.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C711255", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 423.0, "ContributionID": 711255, "EditedText": "I welcome the fact that, at United Kingdom level, the Government is being positive about Europe and has declared itself, in principle, in favour of a single currency. It is important that we go in on terms that will bring long-term stability to the United Kingdom and to Scotland. When we consider the volume of exports from Scotland to the European Union, it is clear that our interests— the interests of business and the interests of our people—are most safeguarded by a much more positive involvement in the European Union and, indeed, in the euro, than has been the case until now.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the fact that, at United Kingdom level, the Government is being positive about Europe and has declared itself, in principle, in favour of a single currency. It is important that we go in on terms that will bring long-term stability to the United Kingdom and to Scotland. When we consider the volume of exports from Scotland to the European Union, it is clear that our interests— the interests of business and the interests of our people—are most safeguarded by a much more positive involvement in the European Union and, indeed, in the euro, than has been the case until now.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C711258", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 429.0, "ContributionID": 711258, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C711260", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 433.0, "ContributionID": 711260, "EditedText": "One party wants Britain out of Europe; one party wants Scotland out of Britain. The Executive proposes that Scotland's interests are best served by playing a positive part within the UK and by Scotland and the UK playing a positive part in Europe.", "EditedTextHTML": "One party wants Britain out of Europe; one party wants Scotland out of Britain. The Executive proposes that Scotland's interests are best served by playing a positive part within the UK and by Scotland and the UK playing a positive part in Europe.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C711263", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 439.0, "ContributionID": 711263, "EditedText": "People are more likely to be able to buy their own homes, to go on holiday or to enjoy a comfortable retirement with Britain playing a full and involved part in the European Union instead of an isolated Britain or Scotland trying to go it alone. I commend the motion to the Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "People are more likely to be able to buy their own homes, to go on holiday or to enjoy a comfortable retirement with Britain playing a full and involved part in the European Union instead of an isolated Britain or Scotland trying to go it alone. I commend the motion to the Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711266", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27028, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 441.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 441.0, "ID": 27028, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 447.0, "ContributionID": 711266, "EditedText": "There will be a division.", "EditedTextHTML": "There will be a division.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711274", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27028, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 441.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 441.0, "ID": 27028, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 460.0, "ContributionID": 711274, "EditedText": "The result of the division is as follows: For 18, Against 96, Abstentions 1.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result of the division is as follows: For 18, Against 96, Abstentions 1.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711275", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27028, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 441.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 441.0, "ID": 27028, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 462.0, "ContributionID": 711275, "EditedText": "Amendment disagreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment disagreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711277", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27028, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 441.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 441.0, "ID": 27028, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 465.0, "ContributionID": 711277, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711278", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27028, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 441.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 441.0, "ID": 27028, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 467.0, "ContributionID": 711278, "EditedText": "There will be a division.", "EditedTextHTML": "There will be a division.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711285", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Borders Rail Link", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27029, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 475.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 475.0, "ID": 27029, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 478.0, "ContributionID": 711285, "EditedText": "Motion debated,", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion debated,

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1762E216P508C711313", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Borders Rail Link", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27029, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 475.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 475.0, "ID": 27029, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Elder, Dorothy-Grace", "ID": 1762, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder (Glasgow) (SNP) rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 541.0, "ContributionID": 711313, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711291", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Borders Rail Link", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27029, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 475.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 475.0, "ID": 27029, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 490.0, "ContributionID": 711291, "EditedText": "That is right.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is right.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711294", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Borders Rail Link", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27029, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 475.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 475.0, "ID": 27029, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 497.0, "ContributionID": 711294, "EditedText": "That is greatly appreciated. I call Adam Ingram.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is greatly appreciated. I call Adam Ingram.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711303", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Borders Rail Link", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27029, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 475.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 475.0, "ID": 27029, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 517.0, "ContributionID": 711303, "EditedText": "The clocks are showing that 21 minutes have elapsed. We have 30 minutes for this debate. If members are brief, all will be able to speak.", "EditedTextHTML": "The clocks are showing that 21 minutes have elapsed. We have 30 minutes for this debate. If members are brief, all will be able to speak.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711316", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Borders Rail Link", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27029, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 475.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 475.0, "ID": 27029, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 547.0, "ContributionID": 711316, "EditedText": "Order. If the minister is not giving way, Dorothy-Grace Elder, you cannot continue.", "EditedTextHTML": "Order. If the minister is not giving way, Dorothy-Grace Elder, you cannot continue.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711309", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Borders Rail Link", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27029, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 475.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 475.0, "ID": 27029, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 532.0, "ContributionID": 711309, "EditedText": "I have left the minister very little time. I will generously allow some overrun, but could you be as brief as possible.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have left the minister very little time. I will generously allow some overrun, but could you be as brief as possible.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711318", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Borders Rail Link", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27029, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 475.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 475.0, "ID": 27029, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 551.0, "ContributionID": 711318, "EditedText": "I thank the minister and members for their co-operation in keeping to time.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the minister and members for their co-operation in keeping to time.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C711314", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Borders Rail Link", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27029, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 475.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 475.0, "ID": 27029, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 543.0, "ContributionID": 711314, "EditedText": "No, I have so many—", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I have so many—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:14.3101891+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C711310", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Borders Rail Link", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27029, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 475.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 475.0, "ID": 27029, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment (Sarah Boyack): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 535.0, "ContributionID": 711310, "EditedText": "How little time, Sir David?", "EditedTextHTML": "How little time, Sir David?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:14.3101891+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1756E184P464C711287", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Borders Rail Link", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27029, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 475.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 475.0, "ID": 27029, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Grahame, Christine", "ID": 1756, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Christine Grahame", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 481.0, "ContributionID": 711287, "EditedText": "I think it is excellent that you are here, Sir David. On 3 February 1962, on the closure of the Peebles through line, that great patriot, Wendy Wood, stood alone on the platform with an impromptu declaration, chalked on a blackboard. The legend read: \"Home rule will reopen the stations again\".I know that because someone who saw it at the time, as a boy, told me. He is Allan Maclean from Virgin Trains which, with Railtrack, has put in £10,000 for the current feasibility study. In 1968, 600 tickets were sold each weekday on the Borders to Edinburgh stretch of the Waverley line. On 6 January 1969, the last passenger trains ran from Waverley station in Edinburgh along the 98 miles of track, stopping at, among other places, Eskbank, Newtongrange, Gorebridge, Heriot, Stow, Galashiels, Melrose, Newton St Boswells, Hawick, Newcastleton, Longtown and Carlisle. The journey came after a long campaign to keep rail in the Borders, which we represent in part today. Other parties are named in the motion. Some of those who campaigned are sitting on official chairs in the chamber. Some of us are members of the all-party campaign for Borders rail.The campaign will not end until the last bit of track connects Waverley, through Gala and Hawick, to Carlisle. That is the position whatever the feasibility study delivers. Feasibility studies, I say to Ms Boyack, are constrained within their terms of reference, which I and other members do not know. The real terms of reference are whether the Borders will prosper with or without the railway line. I need no feasibility study to direct me on that one. Should the feasibility study indicate a link only as far as Gorebridge, it is not a Borders railway line by definition, because it does not touch the Borders—it would be a suburban link to Edinburgh. The decision to close the line was taken for the wrong reasons at another time, when rail was seen as a burden on the nation's purse and road and the motor car were seen as the great liberators. There were promises about public transport, even of buses that would run on the old line. There are some interesting contemporary quotations: \"I cannot understand why any government setting out on development in the Borders should take away travel facilities.\" That was said by a Mr Campbell, a Melrose minister. True then, true now. Another reads:\"The government have ignored the advice of their own Borders Economic Consultative Group and have cut off the remaining railway arteries through an area they are pledged to develop\". That person also called the closing of the line a \"catastrophic\" decision—a very young David Steel. Last night, the Moderator of the Church of Scotland, sporting a campaign sticky, told me of the Reverend Brydon Mabon, minister at Newcastleton, who lay across the line and was jailed for his protest. Some of us got an e-mail from the presbytery of Jedburgh acknowledging that and supporting the campaign. Today, 108,000 people are still without a railway station, compared with 250,000 with 57 stations in the Highlands. Borderers and highlanders have much in common, but there is one glaring difference. I suggest that that difference has had social, environmental and economic impacts at the very root of Borders society. On the social impact, a pertinent question in the Borders might be, \"Where have all the young people gone?\" Scottish Borders has the highest proportion of people over pensionable age; almost 40 per cent are over 50. That has implications for the development of a balanced society and an obvious impact on various support services. The young people have left to find work, in the main, and to have access to the perceived attractions of the cities. On the environmental impact, as the A68 and A7 are the main arteries to the rest of Scotland, we are all too aware of how inadequate the road links are—even on the bonniest, driest autumn day—for commuters in either direction and certainly for freight. The topography of the Borders, which makes the area suitable for the mills and the sheep, does not lend itself to the relentless and continual expansion of tarmac. I now turn to the economic impact. One woman's crisis is another man's problem. On the economic Richter scale, from electronics through textiles to the beleaguered farmers and the fragile tourism trade, the Borders remains very vulnerable, however we look at it, yet the area has a keen and stable work force, its natural amenity is unsurpassed and it forms the natural corridor from Scotland to the south. The area's vulnerability and decline will continue until one radical, simple step—the railway line—is taken by the Executive. That step would meet the needs not only of the Borders, but of Scotland and beyond. From it would flow prosperity in economic growth and quality of life. In the new millennium, that step would signal mature thought on transport for the next century, benefiting country and town. We choke on the fumes of cars that move through our congested cities more slowly than a pedestrian would and the great and expensive motorways conduct traffic nose to tail. Villages are shaken by the thunder of articulated lorries hauling felled forests on winding country roads. People in the cities contract road rage and people in the country are isolated by the cost of car and fuel. The time for rail is now. The vision of a Borders railway that fuses with an urban network in Edinburgh, as proposed by CRAG—the Capital Rail Action Group—is the way forward. That would give Borderers and freight access to and from the city and encourage the flow of entrepreneurs to set up homes and businesses in the Borders, thus redressing the current demographic imbalance. Railtrack is keen, Virgin Trains is keen, ScotRail is keen, we are keen—but what of the Executive? The heart may be willing but I suspect that the head is not. The cost of reinstating the line will be £100 million—possibly more. The cost of the line to Gala would be £25 million. Where is that money in the transport budget? Gordon Brown has gathered stealth taxes from the motorists of Britain, let alone Scotland, with his fuel escalator. He has built up a war chest for the next election. He has his priorities and I suspect that they are not those of the Borders people. Westminster will pay out billions for the Thames barrier, for the Jubilee line to the London docklands and for Trident, but— unless we keep beating at the Treasury's door— not the comparative pocket money that a Borders rail line would cost. Compared with the Goliath that is greater London, the Borders is David—but we know who won that combat against the odds. Fine words are no use if action does not follow. A political commentator recently bemoaned the Opposition's lack of ideas. I give him Borders rail as an idea whose time has come. Let that be a test of the Scottish Parliament. The Borders people want their rail line, which a Labour Government wrongly took away from them 30 years ago. I call on the coalition to put that right now. Many people believe that this Parliament will not act; they have come to expect so little from their politicians. I have a petition with thousands of signatures from Borderers and more signatures are being gathered every day. All it takes is political will. Let this Parliament prove that Wendy Wood was right. Let home rule open the stations again.", "EditedTextHTML": "I think it is excellent that you are here, Sir David.

On 3 February 1962, on the closure of the Peebles through line, that great patriot, Wendy Wood, stood alone on the platform with an impromptu declaration, chalked on a blackboard. The legend read:

\"Home rule will reopen the stations again\".

I know that because someone who saw it at the time, as a boy, told me. He is Allan Maclean from Virgin Trains which, with Railtrack, has put in £10,000 for the current feasibility study.

In 1968, 600 tickets were sold each weekday on the Borders to Edinburgh stretch of the Waverley line. On 6 January 1969, the last passenger trains ran from Waverley station in Edinburgh along the 98 miles of track, stopping at, among other places, Eskbank, Newtongrange, Gorebridge, Heriot, Stow, Galashiels, Melrose, Newton St Boswells, Hawick, Newcastleton, Longtown and Carlisle.

The journey came after a long campaign to keep rail in the Borders, which we represent in part today. Other parties are named in the motion. Some of those who campaigned are sitting on official chairs in the chamber. Some of us are members of the all-party campaign for Borders

rail.

The campaign will not end until the last bit of track connects Waverley, through Gala and Hawick, to Carlisle. That is the position whatever the feasibility study delivers. Feasibility studies, I say to Ms Boyack, are constrained within their terms of reference, which I and other members do not know.

The real terms of reference are whether the Borders will prosper with or without the railway line. I need no feasibility study to direct me on that one. Should the feasibility study indicate a link only as far as Gorebridge, it is not a Borders railway line by definition, because it does not touch the Borders—it would be a suburban link to Edinburgh.

The decision to close the line was taken for the wrong reasons at another time, when rail was seen as a burden on the nation's purse and road and the motor car were seen as the great liberators. There were promises about public transport, even of buses that would run on the old line.

There are some interesting contemporary quotations:

\"I cannot understand why any government setting out on development in the Borders should take away travel facilities.\"

That was said by a Mr Campbell, a Melrose minister. True then, true now.

Another reads:

\"The government have ignored the advice of their own Borders Economic Consultative Group and have cut off the remaining railway arteries through an area they are pledged to develop\".

That person also called the closing of the line a \"catastrophic\" decision—a very young David Steel.

Last night, the Moderator of the Church of Scotland, sporting a campaign sticky, told me of the Reverend Brydon Mabon, minister at Newcastleton, who lay across the line and was jailed for his protest. Some of us got an e-mail from the presbytery of Jedburgh acknowledging that and supporting the campaign.

Today, 108,000 people are still without a railway station, compared with 250,000 with 57 stations in the Highlands. Borderers and highlanders have much in common, but there is one glaring difference. I suggest that that difference has had social, environmental and economic impacts at the very root of Borders society.

On the social impact, a pertinent question in the Borders might be, \"Where have all the young people gone?\" Scottish Borders has the highest proportion of people over pensionable age; almost 40 per cent are over 50. That has implications for the development of a balanced society and an obvious impact on various support services. The young people have left to find work, in the main, and to have access to the perceived attractions of the cities.

On the environmental impact, as the A68 and A7 are the main arteries to the rest of Scotland, we are all too aware of how inadequate the road links are—even on the bonniest, driest autumn day—for commuters in either direction and certainly for freight. The topography of the Borders, which makes the area suitable for the mills and the sheep, does not lend itself to the relentless and continual expansion of tarmac.

I now turn to the economic impact. One woman's crisis is another man's problem. On the economic Richter scale, from electronics through textiles to the beleaguered farmers and the fragile tourism trade, the Borders remains very vulnerable, however we look at it, yet the area has a keen and stable work force, its natural amenity is unsurpassed and it forms the natural corridor from Scotland to the south.

The area's vulnerability and decline will continue until one radical, simple step—the railway line—is taken by the Executive. That step would meet the needs not only of the Borders, but of Scotland and beyond. From it would flow prosperity in economic growth and quality of life. In the new millennium, that step would signal mature thought on transport for the next century, benefiting country and town.

We choke on the fumes of cars that move through our congested cities more slowly than a pedestrian would and the great and expensive motorways conduct traffic nose to tail. Villages are shaken by the thunder of articulated lorries hauling felled forests on winding country roads. People in the cities contract road rage and people in the country are isolated by the cost of car and fuel. The time for rail is now.

The vision of a Borders railway that fuses with an urban network in Edinburgh, as proposed by CRAG—the Capital Rail Action Group—is the way forward. That would give Borderers and freight access to and from the city and encourage the flow of entrepreneurs to set up homes and businesses in the Borders, thus redressing the current demographic imbalance. Railtrack is keen, Virgin Trains is keen, ScotRail is keen, we are keen—but what of the Executive? The heart may be willing but I suspect that the head is not.

The cost of reinstating the line will be £100 million—possibly more. The cost of the line to Gala would be £25 million. Where is that money in the transport budget? Gordon Brown has gathered stealth taxes from the motorists of Britain, let alone Scotland, with his fuel escalator. He has built up a war chest for the next election. He has his

priorities and I suspect that they are not those of the Borders people. Westminster will pay out billions for the Thames barrier, for the Jubilee line to the London docklands and for Trident, but— unless we keep beating at the Treasury's door— not the comparative pocket money that a Borders rail line would cost. Compared with the Goliath that is greater London, the Borders is David—but we know who won that combat against the odds.

Fine words are no use if action does not follow. A political commentator recently bemoaned the Opposition's lack of ideas. I give him Borders rail as an idea whose time has come. Let that be a test of the Scottish Parliament. The Borders people want their rail line, which a Labour Government wrongly took away from them 30 years ago. I call on the coalition to put that right now. Many people believe that this Parliament will not act; they have come to expect so little from their politicians. I have a petition with thousands of signatures from Borderers and more signatures are being gathered every day. All it takes is political will. Let this Parliament prove that Wendy Wood was right. Let home rule open the stations again.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:01:23.8313068+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1756E184P464C711300", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Borders Rail Link", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27029, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 475.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 475.0, "ID": 27029, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Grahame, Christine", "ID": 1756, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Christine Grahame", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Christine Grahame: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 511.0, "ContributionID": 711300, "EditedText": "I ask the Presiding Officer whether the debate can be extended, to allow as many members as possible to speak.", "EditedTextHTML": "I ask the Presiding Officer whether the debate can be extended, to allow as many members as possible to speak.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:01:23.8313068+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1756E184P464C711302", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Borders Rail Link", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27029, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 475.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 475.0, "ID": 27029, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Grahame, Christine", "ID": 1756, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Christine Grahame", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Christine Grahame: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 515.0, "ContributionID": 711302, "EditedText": "In that case, at what time did this debate begin?", "EditedTextHTML": "In that case, at what time did this debate begin?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:01:23.8313068+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1756E184P464C711304", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Borders Rail Link", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27029, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 475.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 475.0, "ID": 27029, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Grahame, Christine", "ID": 1756, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Christine Grahame", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Christine Grahame: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 519.0, "ContributionID": 711304, "EditedText": "Thank you.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:01:23.8313068+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C711171", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 244.0, "ContributionID": 711171, "EditedText": "Will David McLetchie give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will David McLetchie give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4513966+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2223E203P342C711173", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scott, Tavish", "ID": 2223, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Shetland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tavish Scott", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tavish Scott (Shetland) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 249.0, "ContributionID": 711173, "EditedText": "I was thinking about which government handed over most sovereignty to the European Union in the past. Never have so many Tories been misunderstood as today. The Liberal Democrats support the motion in the name of the First Minister because it is positive about Scotland's engagement with Europe. An outward-looking Parliament is part of a positive approach to promoting peace, to protecting the environment, to opening up trade opportunities and to assisting the stable development of less fortunate regions. We oppose the SNP and Tory amendments. The SNP calls for an independent Scotland. People voted for devolution and rejected independence and want Scotland to play a constructive role in Europe as part of the United Kingdom. We oppose the Tory amendment because it is a contradiction in terms: is it never, or never say never again, on the euro? A party with an objective that would damage our economy, fishing and farming, which created the beef war and which now wants a European opt-out on anything they do not like, is not a party fit to take forward our engagement with Europe.The only thing the Tories like less than Europe is themselves. On the BBC recently Chris Patten warned his party that it is \"making no sense on Europe, and risks losing mainstream support through its policies\". I further quote:\"Let me be quite clear. Britain does not dream of some cosy, isolated existence on the fringes of the European Community. Our destiny lies in Europe, as part of the Community.\" That was Margaret Thatcher, in Bruges in 1988. That is still true. Scotland needs to benefit from the European drive to create opportunities to secure new jobs, ensure stable prices—", "EditedTextHTML": "I was thinking about which government handed over most sovereignty to the European Union in the past. Never have so many Tories been misunderstood as today.

The Liberal Democrats support the motion in the name of the First Minister because it is positive about Scotland's engagement with Europe. An outward-looking Parliament is part of a positive approach to promoting peace, to protecting the environment, to opening up trade opportunities and to assisting the stable development of less fortunate regions.

We oppose the SNP and Tory amendments. The SNP calls for an independent Scotland. People voted for devolution and rejected independence and want Scotland to play a constructive role in Europe as part of the United Kingdom. We oppose the Tory amendment because it is a contradiction in terms: is it never, or never say never again, on the euro?

A party with an objective that would damage our economy, fishing and farming, which created the beef war and which now wants a European opt-out on anything they do not like, is not a party fit to

take forward our engagement with Europe.

The only thing the Tories like less than Europe is themselves. On the BBC recently Chris Patten warned his party that it is

\"making no sense on Europe, and risks losing mainstream support through its policies\".

I further quote:

\"Let me be quite clear. Britain does not dream of some cosy, isolated existence on the fringes of the European Community. Our destiny lies in Europe, as part of the Community.\"

That was Margaret Thatcher, in Bruges in 1988. That is still true.

Scotland needs to benefit from the European drive to create opportunities to secure new jobs, ensure stable prices—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4513966+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C711174", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Brian Monteith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 251.0, "ContributionID": 711174, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4513966+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2223E203P342C711175", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scott, Tavish", "ID": 2223, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Shetland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tavish Scott", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tavish Scott: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 253.0, "ContributionID": 711175, "EditedText": "If I must.", "EditedTextHTML": "If I must.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4513966+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C711176", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Monteith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 255.0, "ContributionID": 711176, "EditedText": "You quoted Margaret Thatcher—", "EditedTextHTML": "You quoted Margaret Thatcher—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4513966+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2117E79P104C711184", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macdonald, Lewis", "ID": 2117, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lewis Macdonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Lewis Macdonald (Aberdeen Central) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 272.0, "ContributionID": 711184, "EditedText": "All parties have agreed, more or less, on the importance of constructive engagement with Europe, but the question that divides us is the terms on which we do that. I hope that recent events have concentrated minds, and reminded us of the importance of our European trading partners to Scottish businesses and jobs. Before we joined the European Community, EC countries accounted for less than a quarter of our manufactured goods exports; now they account for nearly two thirds. Of course, much of Scotland's inward investment comes here because we are a gateway to Europe. For example, a number of multinational oil companies are based in my constituency in Aberdeen, where they have their European headquarters, not just their Scottish or British headquarters. The same is true of other industries. The north of Scotland perhaps relies more than any other part of Britain on trade with Europe, whether that is the export of fish, lamb, whisky or many of the other quality products that depend on our continuing constructive engagement with Europe. For that reason, we should reject the Tories' instinct for disengagement from Europe. I was interested to hear Mr McLetchie—and I am sorry that he is no longer here—define his concept of flexibility as something quite different to disengagement. I am sure that his colleagues will pass on to him my request that, in summing up, the Conservatives should explain whether their policy on the common fisheries policy is so flexible that they seek Britain's withdrawal from it. If that is their position, is that practical politics? The Conservatives' amendment does not oppose constructive engagement with Europe and, as far as it goes, I welcome that. However, the party line that it adopted at its recent conference is different. The question of what it means by a flexible Europe is one to which we have not really heard an answer yet. It seems to be a pick-‘n'-mix Europe; not constructive engagement, but a code for disengagement. The Scottish National party is not so daft. It knows that it does not make sense to pull out of a union that works, brings great economic benefits, is vital to our trade and provides a framework within which progressive social policies can be agreed across the board. The SNP does not want to pull out of Europe, but instead it wishes to pull out of the British union—a union that also works, brings great economic benefits, is vital to our trade and creates a framework for social justice and policies for jobs. Nothing could be more illogical than to say, \"A single currency is a good thing. We have one already, but let us walk away from it.\" The logic of pulling out of Britain to engage more fully in Europe is not logic at all. By all means, let us enter the European single currency as early as it is in our economic interests to do so, but surely it makes sense to do that as part of the single currency area to which we already belong rather than to pick one or the other. The Tories offer us a Britain on the edge of Europe, the logic of which is a Britain that will sooner or later slip out altogether.", "EditedTextHTML": "All parties have agreed, more or less, on the importance of constructive engagement with Europe, but the question that divides us is the terms on which we do that.

I hope that recent events have concentrated minds, and reminded us of the importance of our European trading partners to Scottish businesses and jobs. Before we joined the European Community, EC countries accounted for less than a quarter of our manufactured goods exports; now they account for nearly two thirds. Of course, much of Scotland's inward investment comes here because we are a gateway to Europe. For example, a number of multinational oil companies are based in my constituency in Aberdeen, where they have their European headquarters, not just their Scottish or British headquarters. The same is true of other industries.

The north of Scotland perhaps relies more than any other part of Britain on trade with Europe, whether that is the export of fish, lamb, whisky or many of the other quality products that depend on our continuing constructive engagement with Europe. For that reason, we should reject the Tories' instinct for disengagement from Europe. I was interested to hear Mr McLetchie—and I am sorry that he is no longer here—define his concept of flexibility as something quite different to disengagement. I am sure that his colleagues will pass on to him my request that, in summing up, the Conservatives should explain whether their policy on the common fisheries policy is so flexible that they seek Britain's withdrawal from it. If that is their position, is that practical politics?

The Conservatives' amendment does not oppose constructive engagement with Europe and, as far as it goes, I welcome that. However, the party line that it adopted at its recent conference is different. The question of what it means by a flexible Europe is one to which we have not really heard an answer yet. It seems to be a pick-‘n'-mix Europe; not constructive engagement, but a code for disengagement.

The Scottish National party is not so daft. It knows that it does not make sense to pull out of a union that works, brings great economic benefits, is vital to our trade and provides a framework within which progressive social policies can be agreed across the board. The SNP does not want to pull out of Europe, but instead it wishes to pull out of the British union—a union that also works, brings great economic benefits, is vital to our trade and creates a framework for social justice and policies for jobs.

Nothing could be more illogical than to say, \"A single currency is a good thing. We have one already, but let us walk away from it.\" The logic of pulling out of Britain to engage more fully in Europe is not logic at all. By all means, let us enter the European single currency as early as it is in our economic interests to do so, but surely it makes sense to do that as part of the single currency area to which we already belong rather than to pick one or the other.

The Tories offer us a Britain on the edge of Europe, the logic of which is a Britain that will sooner or later slip out altogether.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4513966+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C711209", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 328.0, "ContributionID": 711209, "EditedText": "No, I am not giving way. I have a very short time. That phrase—bunker Toryism—is used by the president of the Conservative party in Scotland, Sir Malcolm Rifkind. He now describes Conservative policy on Europe as bunker Toryism because so many of the Conservatives want to renegotiate membership of the European Union and they are intolerant of those who are pro-euro. A former Prime Minister describes their policy as absurd and crazy. Douglas Hurd, as George Lyon said, describes current Conservative policy as a caricature not in touch with reality. He must have been gazing on Phil Gallie at the time. That is what the Conservative party has been reduced to. The Liberal Democrats are the most consistently pro-European party in the chamber, and we are proud of that. We are proud of it because, passionately and consistently, we have been pro- Europe. That is one of the principal reasons why I joined the party and why I am proud to be a member. The Liberal Democrats are not uncritical supporters of the European Community and the European Union.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I am not giving way. I have a very short time.

That phrase—bunker Toryism—is used by the president of the Conservative party in Scotland, Sir Malcolm Rifkind. He now describes Conservative policy on Europe as bunker Toryism because so many of the Conservatives want to renegotiate membership of the European Union and they are intolerant of those who are pro-euro. A former Prime Minister describes their policy as absurd and crazy. Douglas Hurd, as George Lyon said, describes current Conservative policy as a caricature not in touch with reality. He must have been gazing on Phil Gallie at the time. That is what the Conservative party has been reduced to.

The Liberal Democrats are the most consistently pro-European party in the chamber, and we are proud of that. We are proud of it because, passionately and consistently, we have been pro- Europe. That is one of the principal reasons why I joined the party and why I am proud to be a member. The Liberal Democrats are not uncritical supporters of the European Community and the European Union.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4513966+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1782E69P279C711191", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Oldfather, Irene", "ID": 1782, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Cunninghame South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Irene Oldfather", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Irene Oldfather (Cunninghame South) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 288.0, "ContributionID": 711191, "EditedText": "I am pleased to be able to speak in the debate today on a subject that is close to my heart: positive engagement in Europe. As a member for the past two years of the European Committee of the Regions, I have been fortunate enough to experience at first hand the European decision-making process. Working as it does in a multicultural, multilingual environment, the committee is able to address the everyday problems of Europe's peoples together. I felt that it would be appropriate today to look to the future. I have therefore chosen to address my comments to a key area of policy that is inherent in the evolution of the European Union— enlargement. I do so for a number of reasons. This week sees the 10th anniversary of the tearing down of the Berlin wall. Yesterday, we made history in the European Committee with the first ever visit of a delegation from a European region, Saxony-Anhalt, whose members addressed us in their native language. It is important that Scotland, too, should embrace the concept of enlargement. Although that poses a challenge for us, it also offers us opportunities. Not least of those is the single market, which will be boosted by some hundred million consumers from new, largely untapped and previously unreachable, markets. That will take the number of job opportunities in the single market to 500 million. The effects of free trade and investment with the seven largest applicant countries would add 0.2 per cent to national incomes across Europe and, in Britain, it would add £1.75 billion a year by 2006. The Parliament needs to promote positively enlargement and the opportunities that it represents. Those opportunities include the possibility of growth in both our SME sector and our export market. Members will be interested to hear a success story that often inspires me. A Glasgow- based distributor—I will not mention the name for fear of incurring the wrath of the Standards Committee—of satellite television equipment attended a trade fair in the Czech Republic in September 1993. The ECOS-Ouverture programme of interregional aid sponsored the company, which was successful in securing several orders from central and eastern Europe. From no export sales in 1992, the company made £500,000 from foreign sales in 1993 and tripled that amount by 1995. It now trades to nine countries in central and eastern Europe. Given appropriate assistance, I am sure that firms across Scotland can repeat that success story. I hope that all relevant authorities, including Scottish Enterprise and local enterprise companies, will take active steps to ensure that Scottish companies benefit from this expansion, particularly those in the weaker sections of our economy. I hope that the Parliament's European Committee will look for ways to consider the opportunities that are offered by enlargement. Europe is continuing to change and evolve and enlargement is both a major and inevitable element of that. I believe that, for the first time in the United Kingdom, options are open, not closed, that the approach is constructive, not destructive and that decisions are based on pragmatism, not on outmoded ideology. I urge members to support Scotland's place in Europe and to support the motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am pleased to be able to speak in the debate today on a subject that is close to my heart: positive engagement in Europe.

As a member for the past two years of the European Committee of the Regions, I have been fortunate enough to experience at first hand the European decision-making process. Working as it does in a multicultural, multilingual environment, the committee is able to address the everyday problems of Europe's peoples together.

I felt that it would be appropriate today to look to the future. I have therefore chosen to address my comments to a key area of policy that is inherent in the evolution of the European Union— enlargement. I do so for a number of reasons. This week sees the 10th anniversary of the tearing down of the Berlin wall. Yesterday, we made history in the European Committee with the first ever visit of a delegation from a European region, Saxony-Anhalt, whose members addressed us in their native language.

It is important that Scotland, too, should embrace the concept of enlargement. Although that poses a challenge for us, it also offers us opportunities. Not least of those is the single market, which will be boosted by some hundred million consumers from new, largely untapped and previously unreachable, markets. That will take the number of job opportunities in the single market to 500 million. The effects of free trade and investment with the seven largest applicant countries would add 0.2 per cent to national incomes across Europe and, in Britain, it would add £1.75 billion a year by 2006. The Parliament needs to promote positively enlargement and the opportunities that it represents.

Those opportunities include the possibility of growth in both our SME sector and our export market. Members will be interested to hear a success story that often inspires me. A Glasgow- based distributor—I will not mention the name for fear of incurring the wrath of the Standards Committee—of satellite television equipment attended a trade fair in the Czech Republic in September 1993. The ECOS-Ouverture programme of interregional aid sponsored the company, which was successful in securing several orders from central and eastern Europe. From no export sales in 1992, the company made £500,000 from foreign sales in 1993 and tripled that amount by 1995. It now trades to nine countries in central and eastern Europe.

Given appropriate assistance, I am sure that firms across Scotland can repeat that success story. I hope that all relevant authorities, including Scottish Enterprise and local enterprise companies, will take active steps to ensure that Scottish companies benefit from this expansion, particularly those in the weaker sections of our economy. I hope that the Parliament's European Committee will look for ways to consider the opportunities that are offered by enlargement.

Europe is continuing to change and evolve and enlargement is both a major and inevitable element of that. I believe that, for the first time in the United Kingdom, options are open, not closed, that the approach is constructive, not destructive and that decisions are based on pragmatism, not on outmoded ideology. I urge members to support

Scotland's place in Europe and to support the motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4513966+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1916E38P70C711192", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Ben", "ID": 1916, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ben Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ben Wallace (North-East Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 291.0, "ContributionID": 711192, "EditedText": "It is refreshing to hear from another party that is clear on its aims and objectives in Europe. The SNP would join the euro at the first possible opportunity; that goes for the Liberal Democrats, too. The SNP's single U-turn on Europe in the 1980s pales into insignificance beside Labour's seven changes of policy position on Europe since the European Community was established. Obviously, Mr Salmond sees entry into the euro as part of his grand plan for independence. However, he must be aware that, by joining the single currency, he will abandon any hope of Scotland being able to control its own interest rates, currency and, ultimately, fiscal policy. He would be weakening the independence for which he strives. He seems more interested in the trappings of a region within a federal Europe than in allowing Scotland's people to be able to run their own future. The Conservative party's policy is clear: in Europe, not run by Europe. We believe that entry into the euro is not in the best interests of the people of Scotland. We believe in an expanded, less regulated European market: a Europe with fewer regulations, not more; a Europe with fewer powers being given to bureaucrats, not more; a Europe where the citizens of each member state feel secure in their identity and are able to change their political masters when they feel like it. By staying out of the euro—", "EditedTextHTML": "It is refreshing to hear from another party that is clear on its aims and objectives in Europe. The SNP would join the euro at the first possible opportunity; that goes for the Liberal Democrats, too. The SNP's single U-turn on Europe in the 1980s pales into insignificance beside Labour's seven changes of policy position on Europe since the European Community was established.

Obviously, Mr Salmond sees entry into the euro as part of his grand plan for independence. However, he must be aware that, by joining the single currency, he will abandon any hope of Scotland being able to control its own interest rates, currency and, ultimately, fiscal policy. He would be weakening the independence for which he strives. He seems more interested in the trappings of a region within a federal Europe than in allowing Scotland's people to be able to run their own future.

The Conservative party's policy is clear: in Europe, not run by Europe. We believe that entry into the euro is not in the best interests of the people of Scotland. We believe in an expanded, less regulated European market: a Europe with fewer regulations, not more; a Europe with fewer powers being given to bureaucrats, not more; a Europe where the citizens of each member state feel secure in their identity and are able to change their political masters when they feel like it.

By staying out of the euro—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4513966+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C711193", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 293.0, "ContributionID": 711193, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4513966+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C711204", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 317.0, "ContributionID": 711204, "EditedText": "We now come to the winding-up speeches. I ask members to adhere to their time limits. Keith Raffan will wind up for the Liberal Democrats.", "EditedTextHTML": "We now come to the winding-up speeches. I ask members to adhere to their time limits. Keith Raffan will wind up for the Liberal Democrats.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4513966+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C711205", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Keith Raffan (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 320.0, "ContributionID": 711205, "EditedText": "It is over 30 years since I spoke at my first pro- European rally. I was perched somewhat precariously on the sloping base of Nelson's column in Trafalgar square. There were a number of senior Tories alongside me on the base of the column. All of them, bar one, have now left the Conservative party because of Europe, and almost all of them are members of the Liberal Democrat party. Those are the divisions on Europe that have afflicted the Conservative party over the past 30 years. I am not surprised that Ben Wallace did not give way. He did not give way because he could not answer the question that I was going to ask.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is over 30 years since I spoke at my first pro- European rally. I was perched somewhat precariously on the sloping base of Nelson's column in Trafalgar square. There were a number of senior Tories alongside me on the base of the column. All of them, bar one, have now left the Conservative party because of Europe, and almost all of them are members of the Liberal Democrat party. Those are the divisions on Europe that have afflicted the Conservative party over the past 30 years.

I am not surprised that Ben Wallace did not give way. He did not give way because he could not answer the question that I was going to ask.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4513966+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C711208", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Annabel Goldie (West of Scotland) (Con) rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 326.0, "ContributionID": 711208, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4513966+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C711210", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 330.0, "ContributionID": 711210, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4513966+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C711211", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 332.0, "ContributionID": 711211, "EditedText": "I am sorry, but I do not have time. I would like to give way, but I have only one minute left. I will try to give way. Mr Salmond has given way to me in the past. Tavish Scott made the crucial point about our policy in Europe. Earlier this year the then two Liberal Democrat MEPs, Graham Watson and Robin Teverson, were the first to put down a motion censuring the two commissioners who were principally responsible for mismanagement within the Community. We have called for action against fraud, and to tackle waste and inefficiency. My colleague and friend Andrew Duff, MEP for Eastern England, has been taking the lead on the setting up of the European anti-fraud office, OLAF, to which Tavish Scott alluded. I am happy to give way to Alex Salmond.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry, but I do not have time. I would like to give way, but I have only one minute left. I will try to give way. Mr Salmond has given way to me in the past.

Tavish Scott made the crucial point about our policy in Europe. Earlier this year the then two Liberal Democrat MEPs, Graham Watson and Robin Teverson, were the first to put down a motion censuring the two commissioners who were principally responsible for mismanagement within the Community. We have called for action against fraud, and to tackle waste and inefficiency. My colleague and friend Andrew Duff, MEP for Eastern England, has been taking the lead on the setting up of the European anti-fraud office, OLAF, to which Tavish Scott alluded.

I am happy to give way to Alex Salmond.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4513966+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C711214", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 338.0, "ContributionID": 711214, "EditedText": "We have been consistently pro the single currency. We believe that the convergence criteria must be met, and we want to go in at the earliest opportunity. We have been consistent in that policy. I would like Mr Salmond to explain how the SNP went from being bitterly hostile to Europe to being pro-Europe. That was a very convenient conversion. \"It's Scotland's Oil\" failed, so the SNP now uses the slogan of \"Independence in Europe\". It hopes that that will get it over the separatist problem that it faces as a political party. Interruption.", "EditedTextHTML": "We have been consistently pro the single currency. We believe that the convergence criteria must be met, and we want to go in at the earliest opportunity. We have been consistent in that policy.

I would like Mr Salmond to explain how the SNP went from being bitterly hostile to Europe to being pro-Europe. That was a very convenient conversion. \"It's Scotland's Oil\" failed, so the SNP now uses the slogan of \"Independence in Europe\". It hopes that that will get it over the separatist problem that it faces as a political party. [Interruption.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4513966+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C711215", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 340.0, "ContributionID": 711215, "EditedText": "Order.", "EditedTextHTML": "Order.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4513966+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C711216", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 342.0, "ContributionID": 711216, "EditedText": "The SNP never mentions Ireland now as the great example of what it would like Scotland to be. With the enlargement of the Community and the reform of structural funds, the SNP knows that we will not get the kind of support that it always claimed we would get if we were independent within Europe.", "EditedTextHTML": "The SNP never mentions Ireland now as the great example of what it would like Scotland to be. With the enlargement of the Community and the reform of structural funds, the SNP knows that we will not get the kind of support that it always claimed we would get if we were independent within Europe.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4513966+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C711218", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 346.0, "ContributionID": 711218, "EditedText": "Another reason why the SNP never alludes to Ireland is that it is a high-tax economy. That is exactly what Scotland would be under the SNP.", "EditedTextHTML": "Another reason why the SNP never alludes to Ireland is that it is a high-tax economy. That is exactly what Scotland would be under the SNP.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4513966+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C711220", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 350.0, "ContributionID": 711220, "EditedText": "Mr Salmond need not ask the Liberal Democrats about policy. He has a lot to do to explain his own—not least his interest rate policy. He will not let the Bank of England set interest rates, but he is ready to let the European Bank set them.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Salmond need not ask the Liberal Democrats about policy. He has a lot to do to explain his own—not least his interest rate policy. He will not let the Bank of England set interest rates, but he is ready to let the European Bank set them.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4513966+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C711221", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 352.0, "ContributionID": 711221, "EditedText": "Please close, Mr Raffan.", "EditedTextHTML": "Please close, Mr Raffan.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4513966+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C711223", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Annabel Goldie (West of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 357.0, "ContributionID": 711223, "EditedText": "I have never looked up at the Church of Scotland's motto, \"Nec tamen consumebatur\", with such feeling. The classics obviously desert Mr Raffan, like reason and most other attributes. I wind up with pleasure for the Scottish Conservatives in this debate. In a positive mood, I am minded to look again at the terms of the motion and to remind the chamber of what we are supporting. The motion begins by saying: \"That the Parliament endorses the Scottish Executive's policy of continued positive engagement within the European Union\". We have made it clear that we do. The purpose of our amendment is to express concern about one aspect of European policy, which is, of course, the euro.The Conservative party sees tremendous opportunities in Europe and has never pretended otherwise. Interestingly, the advent of this Parliament provides a positive European dimension for Scotland, as does Scotland House—I share Dr Ewing's view on that. I have to make those points clear because in the hurly-burly of the debate, naturally, much abuse and vitriol have been slung at my party. We acknowledge that, but reserve the right to defend our position and to make it clear that there have been misrepresentations and calumnies. On the euro, it is fair for the Conservative party to observe that the Liberal Democrat policy, as outlined by Mr Raffan, is not entirely clear and does not align with the policy of the Labour party. As Dr Ewing says, the policy of the SNP is clear: it wants to go into the euro now. We do not share that view. The Labour party's policy is the most interesting—it is spoken with all the enthusiasm of the suitor. The policy is that the euro is a wonderful proposition—\"Let us go in, in due course, at some unspecified point in the future, when we think that it might be all right, but do not ask us when because we do not really know.\" It is much more honest to adopt the Conservatives' position. We say clearly that we do not think that it is safe or in the interests of the UK to go into the euro just now, and that we do not think that we should go in during this Parliament or the next. That provides clarity. Laughter. Members in other parties may laugh—if I were in their position of embarrassment, I, too, would laugh.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have never looked up at the Church of Scotland's motto, \"Nec tamen consumebatur\", with such feeling. The classics obviously desert Mr Raffan, like reason and most other attributes.

I wind up with pleasure for the Scottish Conservatives in this debate. In a positive mood, I am minded to look again at the terms of the motion and to remind the chamber of what we are supporting. The motion begins by saying:

\"That the Parliament endorses the Scottish Executive's policy of continued positive engagement within the European Union\".

We have made it clear that we do. The purpose of our amendment is to express concern about one aspect of European policy, which is, of course, the

euro.

The Conservative party sees tremendous opportunities in Europe and has never pretended otherwise. Interestingly, the advent of this Parliament provides a positive European dimension for Scotland, as does Scotland House—I share Dr Ewing's view on that.

I have to make those points clear because in the hurly-burly of the debate, naturally, much abuse and vitriol have been slung at my party. We acknowledge that, but reserve the right to defend our position and to make it clear that there have been misrepresentations and calumnies.

On the euro, it is fair for the Conservative party to observe that the Liberal Democrat policy, as outlined by Mr Raffan, is not entirely clear and does not align with the policy of the Labour party. As Dr Ewing says, the policy of the SNP is clear: it wants to go into the euro now. We do not share that view.

The Labour party's policy is the most interesting—it is spoken with all the enthusiasm of the suitor. The policy is that the euro is a wonderful proposition—\"Let us go in, in due course, at some unspecified point in the future, when we think that it might be all right, but do not ask us when because we do not really know.\"

It is much more honest to adopt the Conservatives' position. We say clearly that we do not think that it is safe or in the interests of the UK to go into the euro just now, and that we do not think that we should go in during this Parliament or the next. That provides clarity. [Laughter.] Members in other parties may laugh—if I were in their position of embarrassment, I, too, would laugh.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4513966+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C711228", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 367.0, "ContributionID": 711228, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4513966+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C711229", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Goldie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 369.0, "ContributionID": 711229, "EditedText": "I am terribly sorry—I am just winding up. The Conservative party is not opposed to Europe—very far from it. This party has the courage to examine Europe objectively and vigorously and to suggest changes because we want Europe to work and want to remain in Europe.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am terribly sorry—I am just winding up.

The Conservative party is not opposed to Europe—very far from it. This party has the courage to examine Europe objectively and vigorously and to suggest changes because we want Europe to work and want to remain in Europe.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4513966+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C711237", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 387.0, "ContributionID": 711237, "EditedText": "I thank Ms Cunningham for her speech. The point is that, through the United Kingdom, Scotland has indeed been represented at all those meetings. But more than ministerial attendance is required—our officials have also been heavily engaged in preparing for the meetings. I met Jack Straw last week and he said that he would look forward to and encourage my involvement in European matters. European Council meetings are not always relevant to us. I am told by Mr Finnie that the next meeting of agricultural ministers will be on the subject of flax and hemp. I hope that the Parliament will be sensitive, and not criticise Mr Finnie too much, if he does not think that attending a European Council meeting on flax and hemp is the best way of spending his time.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank Ms Cunningham for her speech. The point is that, through the United Kingdom, Scotland has indeed been represented at all those meetings. But more than ministerial attendance is required—our officials have also been heavily engaged in preparing for the meetings. I met Jack Straw last week and he said that he would look forward to and encourage my involvement in European matters.

European Council meetings are not always relevant to us. I am told by Mr Finnie that the next meeting of agricultural ministers will be on the subject of flax and hemp. I hope that the Parliament will be sensitive, and not criticise Mr Finnie too much, if he does not think that attending a European Council meeting on flax and hemp is the best way of spending his time.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4513966+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C711247", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 407.0, "ContributionID": 711247, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C711249", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 411.0, "ContributionID": 711249, "EditedText": "The forces of anti-Europeanism, if unchallenged, will do real and fundamental damage to our national interest. That is why I am happy to play my part in Scotland in Europe (part of the Britain in Europe campaign).", "EditedTextHTML": "The forces of anti-Europeanism, if unchallenged, will do real and fundamental damage to our national interest. That is why I am happy to play my part in Scotland in Europe (part of the Britain in Europe campaign).

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C711250", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 413.0, "ContributionID": 711250, "EditedText": "As the First Minister was so coy about it at question time a couple of weeks ago, will Mr Wallace please tell us the next planned activities for Britain in Europe—sorry— Scotland in Europe (part of the Britain in Europe campaign), which is the only campaign in Scottish political history that requires A3 paper just to accommodate its letterhead?", "EditedTextHTML": "As the First Minister was so coy about it at question time a couple of weeks ago, will Mr Wallace please tell us the next planned activities for Britain in Europe—sorry— Scotland in Europe (part of the Britain in Europe campaign), which is the only campaign in Scottish political history that requires A3 paper just to accommodate its letterhead?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C711252", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 417.0, "ContributionID": 711252, "EditedText": "On that point, will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "On that point, will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C711256", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 425.0, "ContributionID": 711256, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1821E295P538C711259", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Mrs Margaret", "ID": 1821, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Moray" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Margaret Ewing rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 431.0, "ContributionID": 711259, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711268", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27028, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 441.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 441.0, "ID": 27028, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 450.0, "ContributionID": 711268, "EditedText": "The result of the division is as follows: For 30, Against 85, Abstentions 1.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result of the division is as follows: For 30, Against 85, Abstentions 1.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711269", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27028, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 441.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 441.0, "ID": 27028, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 452.0, "ContributionID": 711269, "EditedText": "Amendment disagreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment disagreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711271", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27028, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 441.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 441.0, "ID": 27028, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 455.0, "ContributionID": 711271, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711272", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27028, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 441.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 441.0, "ID": 27028, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 457.0, "ContributionID": 711272, "EditedText": "There will be a division.", "EditedTextHTML": "There will be a division.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711273", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27028, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 441.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 441.0, "ID": 27028, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 459.0, "ContributionID": 711273, "EditedText": "FOR Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)AGAINST Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)ABSTENTIONS McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)

AGAINST

Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)

ABSTENTIONS

McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711276", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27028, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 441.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 441.0, "ID": 27028, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 463.0, "ContributionID": 711276, "EditedText": "The third question is, that motion S1M-258, in the name of the First Minister, on working together in Europe, be agreed to. Are we agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "The third question is, that motion S1M-258, in the name of the First Minister, on working together in Europe, be agreed to. Are we agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711279", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27028, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 441.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 441.0, "ID": 27028, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 469.0, "ContributionID": 711279, "EditedText": "FOR Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)AGAINST Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)ABSTENTIONS Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)

AGAINST

Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)

ABSTENTIONS

Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711280", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27028, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 441.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 441.0, "ID": 27028, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 470.0, "ContributionID": 711280, "EditedText": "The result of the division is as follows: For 66, Against 31, Abstentions 20.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result of the division is as follows: For 66, Against 31, Abstentions 20.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711281", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27028, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 441.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 441.0, "ID": 27028, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 472.0, "ContributionID": 711281, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711282", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27028, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 441.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 441.0, "ID": 27028, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 473.0, "ContributionID": 711282, "EditedText": "Resolved,", "EditedTextHTML": "Resolved,

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711283", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27028, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 441.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 441.0, "ID": 27028, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 474.0, "ContributionID": 711283, "EditedText": "That the Parliament endorses the Scottish Executive's policy of continued positive engagement within the European Union; recognises that our full participation in Europe is vital to our present and future economic success and prosperity; and believes that Scottish businesses, communities and families are best served by our working together in leadership in Europe with the rest of Britain.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament endorses the Scottish Executive's policy of continued positive engagement within the European Union; recognises that our full participation in Europe is vital to our present and future economic success and prosperity; and believes that Scottish businesses, communities and families are best served by our working together in leadership in Europe with the rest of Britain.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711311", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Borders Rail Link", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27029, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 475.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 475.0, "ID": 27029, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 537.0, "ContributionID": 711311, "EditedText": "We should finish in three minutes but obviously you cannot reply to the debate in three minutes.", "EditedTextHTML": "We should finish in three minutes but obviously you cannot reply to the debate in three minutes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711289", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Borders Rail Link", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27029, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 475.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 475.0, "ID": 27029, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 486.0, "ContributionID": 711289, "EditedText": "You are using too many yous again.", "EditedTextHTML": "You are using too many yous again.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2044E178P334C711292", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Borders Rail Link", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27029, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 475.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 475.0, "ID": 27029, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jenkins, Ian", "ID": 2044, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ian Jenkins", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ian Jenkins: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 492.0, "ContributionID": 711292, "EditedText": "I used to think that your signature tune should be, \"There'll Never be Another You\" or, \"You Drive Me Crazy\". Laughter. I hope that Ms Boyack will go to her colleagues in the Scottish Executive and ask them to make this a flagship project for Scotland. It is a project that embodies many of the ideas about transport that Ms Boyack espouses. Here is an opportunity to reduce the flow of commuter cars into the capital city; a chance to move freight from roads to rail; a chance to demonstrate the Executive's commitment to sustainability; above all, it is a chance to bring the Borders into the forward- looking Scotland that we all want to share. Remember Dr Beeching. Where Dr Beechingwas destructive, I want Sarah Boyack to be creative. Where Dr Beeching made cuts, I want Sarah Boyack to promote the extension of the rail system. Where Dr Beeching made the Borders feel isolated, I want Sarah Boyack to bring Scotland together, for everyone's sake. I want her to show us that we are coming into a new era of sensible public transport policy where sustainability and economics come together. I want Sarah Boyack to follow her heart because I know that she really believes in this. We cannot afford not to take this chance.", "EditedTextHTML": "I used to think that your signature tune should be, \"There'll Never be Another You\" or, \"You Drive Me Crazy\". [Laughter.]

I hope that Ms Boyack will go to her colleagues in the Scottish Executive and ask them to make this a flagship project for Scotland. It is a project that embodies many of the ideas about transport that Ms Boyack espouses. Here is an opportunity to reduce the flow of commuter cars into the capital city; a chance to move freight from roads to rail; a chance to demonstrate the Executive's commitment to sustainability; above all, it is a chance to bring the Borders into the forward- looking Scotland that we all want to share.

Remember Dr Beeching. Where Dr Beeching

was destructive, I want Sarah Boyack to be creative. Where Dr Beeching made cuts, I want Sarah Boyack to promote the extension of the rail system. Where Dr Beeching made the Borders feel isolated, I want Sarah Boyack to bring Scotland together, for everyone's sake. I want her to show us that we are coming into a new era of sensible public transport policy where sustainability and economics come together. I want Sarah Boyack to follow her heart because I know that she really believes in this. We cannot afford not to take this chance.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1882E175P456C711295", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Borders Rail Link", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27029, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 475.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 475.0, "ID": 27029, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ingram, Adam", "ID": 1882, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Adam Ingram", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Adam Ingram (South of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 499.0, "ContributionID": 711295, "EditedText": "I have not made a request to speak, Sir David.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have not made a request to speak, Sir David.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711298", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Borders Rail Link", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27029, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 475.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 475.0, "ID": 27029, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 506.0, "ContributionID": 711298, "EditedText": "If members are brief, I shall try to allow everyone to speak.", "EditedTextHTML": "If members are brief, I shall try to allow everyone to speak.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711301", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Borders Rail Link", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27029, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 475.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 475.0, "ID": 27029, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 513.0, "ContributionID": 711301, "EditedText": "Much as I would, personally, like to do that, I must stick to what I agreed with the other Presiding Officers, which was published in the business bulletin yesterday. We will not normally extend a member's business debate, and I cannot do so on this occasion.", "EditedTextHTML": "Much as I would, personally, like to do that, I must stick to what I agreed with the other Presiding Officers, which was published in the business bulletin yesterday. We will not normally extend a member's business debate, and I cannot do so on this occasion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1962E35P56C711307", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Borders Rail Link", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27029, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 475.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 475.0, "ID": 27029, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mundell, David", "ID": 1962, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Mundell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David Mundell (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 527.0, "ContributionID": 711307, "EditedText": "I will use my minute on forestry. People in the southern part of the Borders, and perhaps in Dumfries and Galloway—in Canonbie, for example—have to live with forestry trucks going through their villages as timber is moved from two of the largest man-made forests in Europe, at Eskdalemuir and Kielder. The southern part of the proposed line would be an important infrastructural asset to get that timber out of Scotland without having lorries thundering through villages. I also want to raise the issue of the enormous increase in the number of people who want to travel from Lockerbie to Edinburgh by train—the journey takes around 60 to 65 minutes by train, but by car it takes much longer. I hope that the minister, by putting pressure on Railtrack and its engineering practices, can allow that journey to be made more often. That exhibited desire shows that people will use services if they are available. Lockerbie to Edinburgh is one of the fastest- growing Virgin routes in Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will use my minute on forestry. People in the southern part of the Borders, and perhaps in Dumfries and Galloway—in Canonbie, for example—have to live with forestry trucks going through their villages as timber is moved from two of the largest man-made forests in Europe, at Eskdalemuir and Kielder. The southern part of the proposed line would be an important infrastructural asset to get that timber out of Scotland without having lorries thundering through villages.

I also want to raise the issue of the enormous increase in the number of people who want to travel from Lockerbie to Edinburgh by train—the journey takes around 60 to 65 minutes by train, but by car it takes much longer. I hope that the minister, by putting pressure on Railtrack and its engineering practices, can allow that journey to be made more often. That exhibited desire shows that people will use services if they are available. Lockerbie to Edinburgh is one of the fastest- growing Virgin routes in Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2188E70P92C711308", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Borders Rail Link", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27029, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 475.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 475.0, "ID": 27029, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harper, Robin", "ID": 2188, "PartyName": "Scottish Green Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Green", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robin Harper", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robin Harper (Lothians) (Green): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 530.0, "ContributionID": 711308, "EditedText": "I left pressing my button until last because I was born in Thurso. It is connected by rail to Edinburgh and I have taken a party of children there from Edinburgh by train. It is a well-used line. Now that the fuel price escalator has been swept aside, only rail is left as a major way of achieving traffic reduction. There are enormous pressures to extend the road network, which would be entirely inappropriate in the Borders. As the minister knows, there are very strong environmental arguments for developing the railway. I am a member of the Capital Rail Action Group, which is fairly advanced with its plans, so I would find it rather embarrassing if rail development in the Edinburgh area went ahead without any sign of the Borders railway being planned. A five or 10to- 15-year plan encompassing the various steps proposed for Borders rail is an essential part of planning for the Borders. So much in the future of the area in terms of forestry and other developments could come on line if we knew we would have the Borders railway.", "EditedTextHTML": "I left pressing my button until last because I was born in Thurso. It is connected by rail to Edinburgh and I have taken a party of children there from Edinburgh by train. It is a well-used line.

Now that the fuel price escalator has been swept aside, only rail is left as a major way of achieving traffic reduction. There are enormous pressures to extend the road network, which would be entirely inappropriate in the Borders. As the minister knows, there are very strong environmental arguments for developing the railway.

I am a member of the Capital Rail Action Group, which is fairly advanced with its plans, so I would find it rather embarrassing if rail development in the Edinburgh area went ahead without any sign of the Borders railway being planned. A five or 10to- 15-year plan encompassing the various steps proposed for Borders rail is an essential part of planning for the Borders. So much in the future of the area in terms of forestry and other developments could come on line if we knew we would have the Borders railway.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711053", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Wednesday 10 November 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 27024, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 27024, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 2.0, "ContributionID": 711053, "EditedText": "THE PRESIDING OFFICER opened the meeting at 14:30", "EditedTextHTML": "[THE PRESIDING OFFICER opened the meeting at 14:30]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711069", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27026, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 6.0, "ID": 27026, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 36.0, "ContributionID": 711069, "EditedText": "There are many more members who want to ask questions than are on the lists that were submitted beforehand. Short questions—and answers—will help to get us through as many as possible.", "EditedTextHTML": "There are many more members who want to ask questions than are on the lists that were submitted beforehand. Short questions—and answers—will help to get us through as many as possible.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2159E115P214C711074", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27026, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 6.0, "ID": 27026, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Martin, Paul", "ID": 2159, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Springburn" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Paul Martin", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Paul Martin (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 46.0, "ContributionID": 711074, "EditedText": "I understand that the minister and her team have visited several homelessness organisations to discuss matters with homeless people and their representatives. Will she give specific details about the issues that have been raised by those organisations and individuals and how she intends to deal with them?", "EditedTextHTML": "I understand that the minister and her team have visited several homelessness organisations to discuss matters with homeless people and their representatives. Will she give specific details about the issues that have been raised by those organisations and individuals and how she intends to deal with them?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1775E171P452C711080", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27026, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 6.0, "ID": 27026, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeod, Fiona", "ID": 1775, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona McLeod", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona McLeod (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 58.0, "ContributionID": 711080, "EditedText": "The evaluation report indicates that the escalation in rough sleeping was closely associated with retrenchment in welfare provision, particularly in relation to young people. One in four rough sleepers has been in local authority care and the minister has admitted this afternoon to having comprehensively failed those vulnerable young people. Will the Executive therefore make strenuous representations to Westminster that it should abandon the proposed Department of Social Security transfer of resources to local authorities, which would remove 2,000 young Scottish care leavers from the benefits system?", "EditedTextHTML": "The evaluation report indicates that the escalation in rough sleeping was closely associated with retrenchment in welfare provision, particularly in relation to young people. One in four rough sleepers has been in local authority care and the minister has admitted this afternoon to having comprehensively failed those vulnerable young people. Will the Executive therefore make strenuous representations to Westminster that it should abandon the proposed Department of Social Security transfer of resources to local authorities, which would remove 2,000 young Scottish care leavers from the benefits system?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C711081", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27026, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 6.0, "ID": 27026, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 60.0, "ContributionID": 711081, "EditedText": "As Fiona knows, a consultation is taking place about how we should best support this vulnerable group of young people, which the current arrangements have failed. I will make three brief points. First, we have successfully halved youth unemployment in Scotland. That has reduced the scale of the problem. Secondly, this Administration is saying that it will create 20,000 modern apprenticeships for 16 and 17-year-olds, who have been among the most vulnerable people to be affected. Thirdly, among that group of vulnerable young people there is universal acceptance of the need for a different approach and that is what the consultation is considering.", "EditedTextHTML": "As Fiona knows, a consultation is taking place about how we should best support this vulnerable group of young people, which the current arrangements have failed.

I will make three brief points. First, we have successfully halved youth unemployment in Scotland. That has reduced the scale of the problem. Secondly, this Administration is saying that it will create 20,000 modern apprenticeships for 16 and 17-year-olds, who have been among the most vulnerable people to be affected. Thirdly, among that group of vulnerable young people there is universal acceptance of the need for a different approach and that is what the consultation is considering.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C711087", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27026, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 6.0, "ID": 27026, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 72.0, "ContributionID": 711087, "EditedText": "One of the interesting features of my visit to the Cowgate centre in Edinburgh was the number of young Glaswegians who told me that one of the reasons they are in Edinburgh is that there is somewhere to go during the day. There are not so many places to go in Glasgow. That said, I have visited the Lodging House Mission in Glasgow, which provides an open-door facility from 8 in the morning until the afternoon. There is a lack of provision in that area.", "EditedTextHTML": "One of the interesting features of my visit to the Cowgate centre in Edinburgh was the number of young Glaswegians who told me that one of the reasons they are in Edinburgh is that there is somewhere to go during the day. There are not so many places to go in Glasgow. That said, I have visited the Lodging House Mission in Glasgow, which provides an open-door facility from 8 in the morning until the afternoon. There is a lack of provision in that area.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C711088", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27026, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 6.0, "ID": 27026, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 74.0, "ContributionID": 711088, "EditedText": "This report is the most comprehensive evaluation of rooflessness and homelessness. As Fiona McLeod said, one of the major causes of homelessness is welfare retrenchment, particularly as it affects young people. I am not making a party political point. I hope that the minister will take this up with the Secretary of State for Social Security, send him a copy of the report and make representations to him about the need to look again at welfare rights for young people.", "EditedTextHTML": "This report is the most comprehensive evaluation of rooflessness and homelessness. As Fiona

McLeod said, one of the major causes of homelessness is welfare retrenchment, particularly as it affects young people. I am not making a party political point. I hope that the minister will take this up with the Secretary of State for Social Security, send him a copy of the report and make representations to him about the need to look again at welfare rights for young people.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C711089", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27026, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 6.0, "ID": 27026, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 76.0, "ContributionID": 711089, "EditedText": "There is universal recognition of the very real problem of how we get the support package right for 16 and 17-year-olds who are completely dissociated from their families—in the traditional sense that we understand that word. A consultation is under way and, as has been shown in the chamber, there are very committed professionals on both sides of the debate about whether the personalised level of support that everyone says is necessary is best delivered via the DSS or via local authorities.", "EditedTextHTML": "There is universal recognition of the very real problem of how we get the support package right for 16 and 17-year-olds who are completely dissociated from their families—in the traditional sense that we understand that word. A consultation is under way and, as has been shown in the chamber, there are very committed professionals on both sides of the debate about whether the personalised level of support that everyone says is necessary is best delivered via the DSS or via local authorities.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C711092", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27026, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 6.0, "ID": 27026, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan (Falkirk West): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 82.0, "ContributionID": 711092, "EditedText": "While welcoming the minister's statement, can I ask her for an assurance that the Executive will introduce or support legislation that will oblige the Scottish courts to take into account the financial and social circumstances of people who are threatened with homelessness through repossession because of mortgage arrears?", "EditedTextHTML": "While welcoming the minister's statement, can I ask her for an assurance that the Executive will introduce or support legislation that will oblige the Scottish courts to take into account the financial and social circumstances of people who are threatened with homelessness through repossession because of mortgage arrears?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C711095", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27026, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 6.0, "ID": 27026, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 88.0, "ContributionID": 711095, "EditedText": "I have already said that further discussions will take place centrally, involving the rough sleepers initiative advisory group. The guidelines that were issued to local authorities today invite them to work locally with partners to think about how they can provide a package of support services for people who face homelessness. Local authorities must take more responsibility for the type of support services that are offered in and around their hostels.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have already said that further discussions will take place centrally, involving the rough sleepers initiative advisory group. The guidelines that were issued to local authorities today invite them to work locally with partners to think about how they can provide a package of support services for people who face homelessness. Local authorities must take more responsibility for the type of support services that are offered in and around their hostels.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C711096", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27026, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 6.0, "ID": 27026, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Keith Raffan (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 90.0, "ContributionID": 711096, "EditedText": "I, too, welcome the minister's statement, particularly her announcement about preventive measures. Does she agree—or at least take on board if she cannot agree—that in addition to what she has announced, we urgently need extra resources for treatment and after care for alcoholics and drug addicts so that they do not end up in hostels, let alone on the streets? In other words, we need intervention at an even earlier stage.", "EditedTextHTML": "I, too, welcome the minister's statement, particularly her announcement about preventive measures. Does she agree—or at least take on board if she cannot agree—that in addition to what she has announced, we urgently need extra resources for treatment and after care for alcoholics and drug addicts so that they do not end up in hostels, let alone on the streets? In other words, we need intervention at an even earlier stage.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1820E139P227C711098", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27026, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 6.0, "ID": 27026, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Curran, Margaret", "ID": 1820, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Baillieston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Curran", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Margaret Curran (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 94.0, "ContributionID": 711098, "EditedText": "I welcome the minister's announcement, particularly as it relates to Glasgow, the needs of which have duly been recognised. The minister announced research and the establishment of a review group. Can she give us an assurance that the review group, in considering hostel provision in Glasgow, will recognise the complexities of young people's needs? This issue is about not only accommodation, but packages of care. Will appropriate agencies, including the social work department, be involved in the delivery of that review?", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the minister's announcement, particularly as it relates to Glasgow, the needs of which have duly been recognised.

The minister announced research and the establishment of a review group. Can she give us an assurance that the review group, in considering hostel provision in Glasgow, will recognise the complexities of young people's needs? This issue is about not only accommodation, but packages of care. Will appropriate agencies, including the social work department, be involved in the delivery of that review?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C711103", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27026, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 6.0, "ID": 27026, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 104.0, "ContributionID": 711103, "EditedText": "That was a very seriously asked question so I will give a serious answer. When the rough sleepers initiative was launched, the fact that it contained a challenge fund element was controversial. It had such an element because it was obvious that we were not solving the problem by traditional routes. As the discussion today has shown, by taking the challenge fund route we have created many innovative projects that show the way in which we want mainstream budgets to move. John McAllion is saying that he does not want any areas to be left out. The rough sleepers initiative gives us the best of both worlds: a challenge fund process at the beginning to develop innovative projects and reward the best ones and then the roll-out to ensure that no part of Scotland loses out thereafter. We are now moving on to that second phase.", "EditedTextHTML": "That was a very seriously asked question so I will give a serious answer. When the rough sleepers initiative was launched, the fact that it contained a challenge fund element was controversial. It had such an element because it was obvious that we were not solving the problem by traditional routes. As the discussion today has shown, by taking the challenge fund route we have created many innovative projects that show the way in which we want mainstream budgets to move.

John McAllion is saying that he does not want any areas to be left out. The rough sleepers initiative gives us the best of both worlds: a challenge fund process at the beginning to develop innovative projects and reward the best ones and then the roll-out to ensure that no part of Scotland loses out thereafter. We are now moving on to that second phase.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711104", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27026, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 6.0, "ID": 27026, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 106.0, "ContributionID": 711104, "EditedText": "I now draw this part of the meeting to a close. I allowed it to run on longer than the allotted time because of the intense interest. I apologise to members who have not been called, but we must protect the time for the debate on motion S1M-258, in the name of the First Minister, on working together in Europe. I invite the First Minister to move his motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "I now draw this part of the meeting to a close. I allowed it to run on longer than the allotted time because of the intense interest. I apologise to members who have not been called, but we must protect the time for the debate on motion S1M-258, in the name of the First Minister, on working together in Europe. I invite the First Minister to move his motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1916E38P70C711108", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Ben", "ID": 1916, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ben Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ben Wallace (North-East Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 116.0, "ContributionID": 711108, "EditedText": "Speaking of lunatics taking over the asylum, does the First Minister recognise this quote: \"The EEC will take away Britain's freedom to follow the sort of economic policies we need\"? It was made by his colleague Tony Blair in Beaconsfield in 1982.", "EditedTextHTML": "Speaking of lunatics taking over the asylum, does the First Minister recognise this quote:

\"The EEC will take away Britain's freedom to follow the sort of economic policies we need\"?

It was made by his colleague Tony Blair in Beaconsfield in 1982.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C711113", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 126.0, "ContributionID": 711113, "EditedText": "This is a moment for honesty—I cannot tell the member that, as I do not have the precise figure.", "EditedTextHTML": "This is a moment for honesty—I cannot tell the member that, as I do not have the precise figure.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C711114", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 128.0, "ContributionID": 711114, "EditedText": "One year.", "EditedTextHTML": "One year.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C711120", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie (Lothians) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 140.0, "ContributionID": 711120, "EditedText": "That is outrageous. That is ungentlemanly conduct.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is outrageous. That is ungentlemanly conduct.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C711123", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 146.0, "ContributionID": 711123, "EditedText": "It is the only time that you have done it.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is the only time that you have done it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C711128", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 156.0, "ContributionID": 711128, "EditedText": "No, I want to move on.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I want to move on.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C711130", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 160.0, "ContributionID": 711130, "EditedText": "When Mr Swinney has listened to the positive case and appreciated it, he can come back to me. What we have seen over the past two years is a remarkable transformation in Britain's standing in Europe and in Britain's ability to achieve and deliver in Europe. No one is going to try to convince me, and no one is going to suggest, that the Labour party stands simply for accepting what Europe does and says. Of course, it is enormously important that a British Government and, indeed, a Scottish Parliament are prepared to stand up and argue the case for our industries, our commerce and our vision of social policy. That is done much more effectively if the country is engaged and seen as fully involved in the growth and development of the European Union. The change has been remarkable. I travel only occasionally, but I go to Europe and I get involved to some extent in negotiations and talks. As anyone who travels will know, our leverage in European arguments has advanced enormously since 1997. We can therefore look backwards with pride and forwards with hope to continuing improvements and reform. Unemployment is endemic in Europe and very high by our standards. We in Scotland have the lowest unemployment claimant count for 23 years. Unemployment has been pushed up the European agenda through the energy, commitment and passion that Gordon Brown and his colleagues have brought to the European debate. At the meeting of the European Council in Berlin, we capped the growth on European spending in a way that the Tories were unable to do in 1988 and 1992. We worked together with other member states to win a good deal on European structural funds, including, of course, the special arrangement and financial equivalent of objective 1 funding for the Highlands and Islands. We were able to protect our rebate to ensure that our contribution to the European Union budget fairly reflects our relative prosperities. We have worked together to promote devolution in Europe. I am proud that, in that field, Britain is practising very much what it has been preaching. From my now-extensive contact with European leaders below national Government level, I know that the range of powers open to this Parliament is envied by many of our colleagues.", "EditedTextHTML": "When Mr Swinney has listened to the positive case and appreciated it, he can come back to me.

What we have seen over the past two years is a remarkable transformation in Britain's standing in Europe and in Britain's ability to achieve and deliver in Europe. No one is going to try to convince me, and no one is going to suggest, that the Labour party stands simply for accepting what Europe does and says. Of course, it is enormously important that a British Government and, indeed, a Scottish Parliament are prepared to stand up and argue the case for our industries, our commerce and our vision of social policy. That is done much more effectively if the country is engaged and seen as fully involved in the growth and development of the European Union.

The change has been remarkable. I travel only occasionally, but I go to Europe and I get involved to some extent in negotiations and talks. As anyone who travels will know, our leverage in European arguments has advanced enormously since 1997. We can therefore look backwards with pride and forwards with hope to continuing improvements and reform.

Unemployment is endemic in Europe and very high by our standards. We in Scotland have the lowest unemployment claimant count for 23 years. Unemployment has been pushed up the European agenda through the energy, commitment and passion that Gordon Brown and his colleagues have brought to the European debate.

At the meeting of the European Council in Berlin, we capped the growth on European spending in a way that the Tories were unable to do in 1988 and 1992. We worked together with other member states to win a good deal on European structural funds, including, of course, the special arrangement and financial equivalent of objective 1 funding for the Highlands and Islands. We were able to protect our rebate to ensure that our contribution to the European Union budget fairly reflects our relative prosperities.

We have worked together to promote devolution in Europe. I am proud that, in that field, Britain is practising very much what it has been preaching. From my now-extensive contact with European leaders below national Government level, I know that the range of powers open to this Parliament is envied by many of our colleagues.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C711132", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Patricia Ferguson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 164.0, "ContributionID": 711132, "EditedText": "I must ask the First Minister to come to a close.", "EditedTextHTML": "I must ask the First Minister to come to a close.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C711134", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 168.0, "ContributionID": 711134, "EditedText": "That is the man who once crossed this floor to shake my hand. What a shame. Although I cannot answer Mr Swinney's question in detail, I have to say that it does not show much vision. If he cares to examine the assisted areas map and the objective 2 map for the allocation of structural funds, he will find that Scotland does extremely well. I hope that that situation will continue under Commissioner Barnier. strongly believe that we have got to get Scotland the best possible deal out of Europe. Although I accept that there are other legitimate arguments about how we do that, I submit—with overwhelming evidence in my support—that the best way is to remain within the UK and, as the documents on the concordats made clear, to be fully and directly involved in every way possible in the formulation of UK policy to ensure that that policy is tailored where necessary to Scotland's interests. We shall then be able to push and achieve advances and we intend to continue to do so. Because we now have a constitutional base in the devolution settlement, we are able through Scotland House in Brussels to interrelate, to use our influence and to add to the influence of similar areas such as the Spanish autonomous provinces, the German Länder and Italian provinces such as Tuscany and Lombardy. I welcome the fact that Alex Salmond was able to visit Scotland House during the week. We can begin to pull our weight in this increasingly important area of European activity and bring home results and rewards. The Parliament must be ever vigilant. This is not a matter of a head count at every European Council meeting; it is a matter of our success in influencing policy and in ensuring that the interests of Scotland are not forgotten at the margins of European meetings. We have done that successfully in the past and will continue to do so. It is better to do that within the UK than leave the strength of being a big player and go out on our own into the increasingly patchwork structure of Europe. Scotland's future is important in Europe. That future will be a shared one based on mutual trust and respect; it will be a celebration of diversity and it will mean a pooling of political power. Scotland will have growing influence, an effective profile and increasing prosperity. The right way forward is not to create the nation states of the past. The right way forward is the flexibility, the imagination and the integrity that Scotland has shown in working within the UK for both the UK and Scotland. I move,That the Parliament endorses the Scottish Executive's policy of continued positive engagement within the European Union; recognises that our full participation in Europe is vital to our present and future economic success and prosperity; and believes that Scottish businesses, communities and families are best served by our working together in leadership in Europe with the rest of Britain.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is the man who once crossed this floor to shake my hand. What a shame.

Although I cannot answer Mr Swinney's question in detail, I have to say that it does not show much

vision. If he cares to examine the assisted areas map and the objective 2 map for the allocation of structural funds, he will find that Scotland does extremely well. I hope that that situation will continue under Commissioner Barnier. strongly believe that we have got to get Scotland the best possible deal out of Europe. Although I accept that there are other legitimate arguments about how we do that, I submit—with overwhelming evidence in my support—that the best way is to remain within the UK and, as the documents on the concordats made clear, to be fully and directly involved in every way possible in the formulation of UK policy to ensure that that policy is tailored where necessary to Scotland's interests. We shall then be able to push and achieve advances and we intend to continue to do so.

Because we now have a constitutional base in the devolution settlement, we are able through Scotland House in Brussels to interrelate, to use our influence and to add to the influence of similar areas such as the Spanish autonomous provinces, the German Länder and Italian provinces such as Tuscany and Lombardy. I welcome the fact that Alex Salmond was able to visit Scotland House during the week. We can begin to pull our weight in this increasingly important area of European activity and bring home results and rewards.

The Parliament must be ever vigilant. This is not a matter of a head count at every European Council meeting; it is a matter of our success in influencing policy and in ensuring that the interests of Scotland are not forgotten at the margins of European meetings. We have done that successfully in the past and will continue to do so. It is better to do that within the UK than leave the strength of being a big player and go out on our own into the increasingly patchwork structure of Europe.

Scotland's future is important in Europe. That future will be a shared one based on mutual trust and respect; it will be a celebration of diversity and it will mean a pooling of political power. Scotland will have growing influence, an effective profile and increasing prosperity. The right way forward is not to create the nation states of the past. The right way forward is the flexibility, the imagination and the integrity that Scotland has shown in working within the UK for both the UK and Scotland.

I move,

That the Parliament endorses the Scottish Executive's policy of continued positive engagement within the European Union; recognises that our full participation in Europe is vital to our present and future economic success and prosperity; and believes that Scottish businesses, communities and families are best served by our working together in leadership in Europe with the rest of Britain.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C711136", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 173.0, "ContributionID": 711136, "EditedText": "That is totally untrue.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is totally untrue.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C711144", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 189.0, "ContributionID": 711144, "EditedText": "I will give way to the First Minister on a subject on which he has substantial expertise.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will give way to the First Minister on a subject on which he has substantial expertise.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5764209+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C711153", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie (Lothians) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 208.0, "ContributionID": 711153, "EditedText": "The Scottish Conservatives, along with our colleagues in Westminster and Strasbourg, remain committed to British membership of the European Union as a partnership of nation states coming together for common purposes, in pursuit of common interests, but retaining independent freedom of action over many areas of social and economic policy. That is the vision that we offered people at the European elections in June. It swept us to significant victories across Britain and wiped a complacent smile from the face of the Prime Minister. It is why we support the first part of today's motion, and is also why our amendment seeks to focus the debate on the key issue of the single currency rather than the wishy-washy words in the motion. Of course, our political opponents try to misrepresent our position and attempt to portray us as extremists who are determined to take Britain out of the European Community.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Scottish Conservatives, along with our colleagues in Westminster and Strasbourg, remain committed to British membership of the European Union as a partnership of nation states coming together for common purposes, in pursuit of common interests, but retaining independent freedom of action over many areas of social and economic policy.

That is the vision that we offered people at the European elections in June. It swept us to significant victories across Britain and wiped a complacent smile from the face of the Prime Minister. It is why we support the first part of today's motion, and is also why our amendment seeks to focus the debate on the key issue of the single currency rather than the wishy-washy words in the motion.

Of course, our political opponents try to misrepresent our position and attempt to portray us as extremists who are determined to take Britain out of the European Community.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5764209+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C711155", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 212.0, "ContributionID": 711155, "EditedText": "I will do so soon.The First Minister has tried to misrepresent our position today, in some of the most patronising terms imaginable. The election on 10 June showed that the Conservatives have struck a blow for the mainstream opinion that we should be in Europe, not run by Europe.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will do so soon.

The First Minister has tried to misrepresent our position today, in some of the most patronising terms imaginable.

The election on 10 June showed that the Conservatives have struck a blow for the mainstream opinion that we should be in Europe, not run by Europe.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5764209+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C711165", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 232.0, "ContributionID": 711165, "EditedText": "We have not agreed to renegotiate the mainstream treaties. Mr Dewar should be aware that there are fundamental common policies in the European Union that will come up for renegotiation in the next few years: the common agricultural policy will inevitably be renegotiated as a result of the accession of new members; the common fisheries policy will be renegotiated when the derogation ends in 2002. Many fundamental policies are up for renegotiation and this country requires a flexible approach that will retain more decision-making powers in this country. That is in the best interests of our fishermen.", "EditedTextHTML": "We have not agreed to renegotiate the mainstream treaties. Mr Dewar should be aware that there are fundamental common policies in the European Union that will come up for renegotiation in the next few years: the common agricultural policy will inevitably be renegotiated as a result of the accession of new members; the common fisheries policy will be renegotiated when the derogation ends in 2002. Many fundamental policies are up for renegotiation and this country requires a flexible approach that will retain more decision-making powers in this country. That is in the best interests of our fishermen.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5764209+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C711168", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 238.0, "ContributionID": 711168, "EditedText": "I am sorry, Mr Raffan. I must make progress. It is our opponents who are out of touch with national sentiment. It is they who are the extremists, not us. It is Labour, its Liberal Democrat subsidiary and the nationalists who ignore the wishes of the vast majority of the people in this country, by relentlessly pursuing an agenda of surrendering our currency, economy and, eventually, our nationhood to European institutions of dubious democratic credentials, in which vital national interests could be subordinated to those of other member states. With the European Union's enlargement looming ever closer, the question that faces Scotland in Britain is not whether the European Union needs to change, but rather how the European Union will change. That has long been recognised by the Prime Minister and his federalist friend Signor Prodi, the new President of the European Commission. Those who want an inflexible, centralised, federal Europe have set out their stall, as is their right. A committee of the so-called wise men, which was established by the President, recommended a large increase in qualified majority voting, the abolition of the national veto, a single European defence capability, a written European constitution and new powers for the Commission. Under those proposals, a single nation would no longer be able to exercise its veto to block other states from imposing policies on it against its will. That, if I may say so, illustrates beautifully the folly of the Scottish National party and its laughable policy of independence in Europe—not so much a slogan as a contradiction in terms. It is that party's headlong rush into a federal European super-state that will sound the death knell of Scottish independence, not its birth, as it fondly imagines. It is the Scottish Conservatives who recognise that every EU member must accept the rights and responsibilities of the single market and the core elements of an open, free-trading and competitive Europe. It is for those reasons that we welcome moves to enlarge the European Union and to extend free trade areas to other economic zones throughout the world; for example, in a new relationship between the European Union and the North American Free Trade Area. In doing so, we welcome the opportunity for greater flexibility and diversity in decision making in the institutions of the European Union. That is why we advocate new treaty provisions that will allow member states to opt out of new legislative proposals that they, as member states, want to handle nationally. Our flexibility policy would not block other member states from going ahead in co-operation with new initiatives, if that is what they want to do, but it would stop much new legislation from being foisted on people in Scotland without their prior democratic consent.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry, Mr Raffan. I must make progress.

It is our opponents who are out of touch with national sentiment. It is they who are the extremists, not us. It is Labour, its Liberal Democrat subsidiary and the nationalists who ignore the wishes of the vast majority of the people in this country, by relentlessly pursuing an agenda of surrendering our currency, economy and, eventually, our nationhood to European institutions of dubious democratic credentials, in which vital national interests could be subordinated to those of other member states.

With the European Union's enlargement looming ever closer, the question that faces Scotland in Britain is not whether the European Union needs to change, but rather how the European Union will change. That has long been recognised by the Prime Minister and his federalist friend Signor Prodi, the new President of the European Commission. Those who want an inflexible, centralised, federal Europe have set out their stall, as is their right. A committee of the so-called wise men, which was established by the President, recommended a large increase in qualified majority voting, the abolition of the national veto, a single European defence capability, a written European constitution and new powers for the Commission. Under those proposals, a single nation would no longer be able to exercise its veto to block other states from imposing policies on it against its will.

That, if I may say so, illustrates beautifully the folly of the Scottish National party and its laughable policy of independence in Europe—not so much a slogan as a contradiction in terms. It is that party's headlong rush into a federal European super-state that will sound the death knell of Scottish independence, not its birth, as it fondly imagines. It is the Scottish Conservatives who recognise that every EU member must accept the rights and responsibilities of the single market and the core elements of an open, free-trading and competitive Europe.

It is for those reasons that we welcome moves to enlarge the European Union and to extend free trade areas to other economic zones throughout the world; for example, in a new relationship between the European Union and the North American Free Trade Area. In doing so, we welcome the opportunity for greater flexibility and diversity in decision making in the institutions of the European Union. That is why we advocate new treaty provisions that will allow member states to opt out of new legislative proposals that they, as member states, want to handle nationally.

Our flexibility policy would not block other member states from going ahead in co-operation with new initiatives, if that is what they want to do, but it would stop much new legislation from being foisted on people in Scotland without their prior

democratic consent.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5764209+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C711232", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 376.0, "ContributionID": 711232, "EditedText": "I believe that to be absolute rubbish, but we will wait to see the Official Report tomorrow to determine whether that was the case. The explanation of the Conservative party's position has left many people rather bewildered. I certainly am not clear after the various exchanges today whether the Conservatives rule out membership of the single European currency for ever, although I listened carefully to the debate. I suspect that they do not rule it out for ever, because they realise that they cannot. That reality affects even the Conservative party. Sir Malcolm Rifkind has sent siren warnings to the Conservatives recently. He has referred to the current Conservative position as \"little more than a euphemism for us to quit Europe\".We need to know whether the stance on Europe of Conservatives in the Scottish Parliament is identical to the stance of Conservatives in the House of Commons and, if it is, whether that is because there is a voluntary agreement between the two parliamentary parties, or because Scottish Conservatives have been told to do what William Hague and his colleagues in the House of Commons believe is appropriate. The other major issue that has been debated today is representation. The First Minister said that he wanted Scotland to be fully and directly involved in the European Union. I could not agree with him more. That statement is on a par with the statement about being at the heart of Europe. We know that such one-liners can sometimes go horribly wrong when the soundbites are not supported by action. It is lamentable when the First Minister tells Parliament that Scotland is to be fully and directly involved in the European Union and then fails to explain why, of 30 council meetings, Scottish Executive ministers were present at only one. Luxembourg, with a population of 429,000, Ireland, with a population of 3,600,000, Denmark, with a population of 5.3 million and Finland, with a population of 5.1 million, have all been fully involved in Europe during all the time that Scotland has been represented at one council meeting. That is a lamentable performance by the Scottish Executive and one for which it must be held to account. We have heard a great deal in today's debate about the euro and interest rates. The points that Mr Salmond made about short-term interest rates over the long term were neatly dodged by the First Minister. He, perhaps along with other ministers, should tell us—I am sure that the Deputy First Minister will touch on this in his summing up— about the concerns that have been expressed by organisations such as the Scottish Council Development and Industry. In its most recent survey of manufacturing exporters, that organisation found that 87 per cent of all businesses surveyed believed that their business had been badly affected by the high value of sterling, and that 69 per cent of them had lost export orders. Those are real pieces of statistical evidence for companies based in Scotland, and they cannot be disregarded as cavalierly as ministers have done today. We in this Parliament have high expectations. The concordat said: \"Ministers and officials of the devolved administrations should have a role to play in relevant Council meetings, and other negotiations with EU partners.\" In today's debate, the performance of the Executive in that regard has been found to be lamentable. The Executive has been represented at one meeting out of 30, a performance that is unacceptable to this Parliament and which should be unacceptable to the Executive. That leads me to the conclusion that the Executive is not pushing the interests of this Parliament or this country within the UK negotiating position. Instead, it is leaving it to others to represent—or should I say misrepresent—the position of this Parliament and the Executive that is supposed to serve it. Normal, equal relations and a strong voice for Scotland will be delivered only when we have direct representation in the European Union, through independence. That is what the Scottish National party will argue for.", "EditedTextHTML": "I believe that to be absolute rubbish, but we will wait to see the Official Report tomorrow to determine whether that was the case.

The explanation of the Conservative party's position has left many people rather bewildered. I certainly am not clear after the various exchanges today whether the Conservatives rule out membership of the single European currency for ever, although I listened carefully to the debate. I suspect that they do not rule it out for ever, because they realise that they cannot. That reality affects even the Conservative party.

Sir Malcolm Rifkind has sent siren warnings to the Conservatives recently. He has referred to the current Conservative position as

\"little more than a euphemism for us to quit Europe\".

We need to know whether the stance on Europe of Conservatives in the Scottish Parliament is identical to the stance of Conservatives in the House of Commons and, if it is, whether that is because there is a voluntary agreement between the two parliamentary parties, or because Scottish Conservatives have been told to do what William Hague and his colleagues in the House of Commons believe is appropriate.

The other major issue that has been debated today is representation. The First Minister said that he wanted Scotland to be fully and directly involved in the European Union. I could not agree with him more. That statement is on a par with the statement about being at the heart of Europe. We know that such one-liners can sometimes go horribly wrong when the soundbites are not supported by action. It is lamentable when the First Minister tells Parliament that Scotland is to be fully and directly involved in the European Union and then fails to explain why, of 30 council meetings, Scottish Executive ministers were present at only one. Luxembourg, with a population of 429,000, Ireland, with a population of 3,600,000, Denmark, with a population of 5.3 million and Finland, with a population of 5.1 million, have all been fully involved in Europe during all the time that Scotland has been represented at one council meeting. That is a lamentable performance by the Scottish Executive and one for which it must be held to account.

We have heard a great deal in today's debate about the euro and interest rates. The points that Mr Salmond made about short-term interest rates over the long term were neatly dodged by the First Minister. He, perhaps along with other ministers, should tell us—I am sure that the Deputy First Minister will touch on this in his summing up— about the concerns that have been expressed by organisations such as the Scottish Council Development and Industry. In its most recent survey of manufacturing exporters, that organisation found that 87 per cent of all businesses surveyed believed that their business had been badly affected by the high value of sterling, and that 69 per cent of them had lost export orders. Those are real pieces of statistical evidence for companies based in Scotland, and they cannot be disregarded as cavalierly as ministers have done today.

We in this Parliament have high expectations. The concordat said:

\"Ministers and officials of the devolved administrations should have a role to play in relevant Council meetings, and other negotiations with EU partners.\"

In today's debate, the performance of the Executive in that regard has been found to be lamentable. The Executive has been represented at one meeting out of 30, a performance that is unacceptable to this Parliament and which should be unacceptable to the Executive. That leads me to the conclusion that the Executive is not pushing the interests of this Parliament or this country within the UK negotiating position. Instead, it is

leaving it to others to represent—or should I say misrepresent—the position of this Parliament and the Executive that is supposed to serve it. Normal, equal relations and a strong voice for Scotland will be delivered only when we have direct representation in the European Union, through independence. That is what the Scottish National party will argue for.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:24:23.7026612+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C711239", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 391.0, "ContributionID": 711239, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:24:23.7026612+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C711230", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 372.0, "ContributionID": 711230, "EditedText": "We have heard lots today about the European Union's importance for Scotland, but I am intrigued by the length of time that we have spent debating it. It is the same amount of time that we plan to spend tomorrow debating the Maximum Number of Judges (Scotland) Order 1999. The allocation of so much time to such an issue has short-changed the Parliament. It may be that there are big issues to settle tomorrow. The right hon Menzies Campbell QC MP may be raised to the bench. Given her performance at Scottish question time in the House of Commons yesterday, the Advocate General for Scotland, Dr Lynda Clark MP, most certainly will be raised to the bench fairly soon, if my judgment is anything to go by. I regret that today's debate has been shortchanged, as many of my colleagues wanted to speak, as I am sure many other members did. My colleague and friend Dr Winnie Ewing made a substantial speech on the real issues for the future of European relations and their importance to various sectors of the Scottish economy. I would have liked the opportunity to hear more members make contributions to the debate of the sort that she made, which was based on her many years of distinguished service in the European Parliament. There was controversy during the debate about how well the Scottish Conservative and Unionist party performed in the European elections on 10 June. The Conservatives did not do as well as they claimed. They did not come first in all the Liberal Democrats' seats. The SNP beat the Liberal Democrats in Argyll and Bute, Ross, Skye and Inverness West, Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross and Gordon. Perhaps Conservative members should check the points that they make in interventions before they come to the chamber. The First Minister's opening speech set an unfortunate tone for the debate. Of a speech lasting some 21 minutes, 15 minutes and 32 seconds were spent attacking the Conservatives and the Scottish National party, before we heard him spend six rather rushed and chaotic minutes trying to promote the Government's position.", "EditedTextHTML": "We have heard lots today about the European Union's importance for Scotland, but I am intrigued by the length of time that we have spent debating it. It is the same amount of time that we plan to spend tomorrow debating the Maximum Number of Judges (Scotland) Order 1999. The allocation of so much time to such an issue has short-changed the Parliament. It may be that there are big issues to settle tomorrow. The right hon Menzies Campbell QC MP may be raised to the bench. Given her performance at Scottish question time in the House of Commons yesterday, the Advocate General for Scotland, Dr Lynda Clark MP, most

certainly will be raised to the bench fairly soon, if my judgment is anything to go by.

I regret that today's debate has been shortchanged, as many of my colleagues wanted to speak, as I am sure many other members did. My colleague and friend Dr Winnie Ewing made a substantial speech on the real issues for the future of European relations and their importance to various sectors of the Scottish economy. I would have liked the opportunity to hear more members make contributions to the debate of the sort that she made, which was based on her many years of distinguished service in the European Parliament.

There was controversy during the debate about how well the Scottish Conservative and Unionist party performed in the European elections on 10 June. The Conservatives did not do as well as they claimed. They did not come first in all the Liberal Democrats' seats. The SNP beat the Liberal Democrats in Argyll and Bute, Ross, Skye and Inverness West, Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross and Gordon. Perhaps Conservative members should check the points that they make in interventions before they come to the chamber.

The First Minister's opening speech set an unfortunate tone for the debate. Of a speech lasting some 21 minutes, 15 minutes and 32 seconds were spent attacking the Conservatives and the Scottish National party, before we heard him spend six rather rushed and chaotic minutes trying to promote the Government's position.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:23:24.0508186+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C711129", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 158.0, "ContributionID": 711129, "EditedText": "I have a point on the positive case.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have a point on the positive case.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:21:23.9742649+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C711169", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 240.0, "ContributionID": 711169, "EditedText": "If Mr McLetchie believes in flexibility, how can he support Mr Hague's policy of firmly ruling out a single currency for the whole of the next Parliament? That is not flexibility.", "EditedTextHTML": "If Mr McLetchie believes in flexibility, how can he support Mr Hague's policy of firmly ruling out a single currency for the whole of the next Parliament? That is not flexibility.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4513966+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C711178", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Monteith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 259.0, "ContributionID": 711178, "EditedText": "Does Mr Scott see any difference between what she said and the slogan we used in the European elections, \"In Europe, but not run by Europe\"? That slogan helped us win—if we look at it on a constituency basis—in all the Liberal seats bar Orkney. Mrs Thatcher was right then and we are right now and your party has got it wrong.", "EditedTextHTML": "Does Mr Scott see any difference between what she said and the slogan we used in the European elections, \"In Europe, but not run by Europe\"? That slogan helped us win—if we look at it on a constituency basis—in all the Liberal seats bar Orkney. Mrs Thatcher was right then and we are right now and your party has got it wrong.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4513966+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C711172", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 246.0, "ContributionID": 711172, "EditedText": "No, I have already given way. Labour, the Liberal Democrats and the nationalists are the real unholy alliance in this party—Laughter—this Parliament. Those parties would go along with the federalist movement, to the changing nature of the European Union. The Prime Minister did so in 1997, by accepting the extension of qualified majority voting at the Amsterdam conference. Now he is preparing to do the same again next year. The position of the Scottish National party is particularly curious. Yesterday, in Brussels, as the First Minister has already intimated, Mr Salmond said that the pound was a millstone round Scotland's neck. That is a clear indication of his personal unequivocal support for early entry into the euro, although, as I understand it, official SNP policy is to consult the people first, in a referendum. Mr Sillars, whose name was taken in vain by the First Minister earlier, in a much more recent warning than the pamphlet dating back around 20 years ago that was dug up by Labour researchers, issued a strong warning about the dangers of entering into the euro in a recent article in The Times: \"It is a major stepping stone to a federal superstate . . . removing one of the core aspects of national sovereignty\". Yesterday, Mr Salmond criticised the Bank of England's action as \"economic policy made in the south-east of England by the south-east of England and for the south-east of England\". If he believes that the Bank of England is too distant to serve the interests of Scotland, how can he argue that the solution is to surrender control of the economy and interest rates to unaccountable bankers in Frankfurt? If what works for people in Aldershot will not work for people in Aberdeen, how on earth will they have anything in common with people in Athens? It is seriously irresponsible of the nationalists to deceive the people of Scotland in this way. The Conservative party is committed to British membership of the European Union, and we are determined that it should work in the best interests of the people of Scotland. The issue of flexibility is at the core of this debate. Some may choose to focus the debate only on the economic criteria. We want it focused on the political implications of joining the single currency. It is a curious irony that while the other parties here are hell-bent on stripping Scotland's Parliament of its sovereignty, within only months of its inception, by handing over more powers to a European federal superstate, it is the Conservative party that is committed to maintaining the powers and responsibilities of our first ever democratically elected Parliament. I move amendment S1M-258.2, to leave out from \"recognises\" to end and insert: \"but does not believe that it would be in Scotland and Britain's interests to consider joining the single currency until its economic and political consequences have been properly assessed and believes that we should keep our independence in decision making.\"", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I have already given way.

Labour, the Liberal Democrats and the nationalists are the real unholy alliance in this party—[Laughter]—this Parliament. Those parties would go along with the federalist movement, to the changing nature of the European Union. The Prime Minister did so in 1997, by accepting the extension of qualified majority voting at the Amsterdam conference. Now he is preparing to do the same again next year. The position of the Scottish National party is particularly curious. Yesterday, in Brussels, as the First Minister has already intimated, Mr Salmond said that the pound was a millstone round Scotland's neck. That is a clear indication of his personal unequivocal support for early entry into the euro, although, as I understand it, official SNP policy is to consult the people first, in a referendum.

Mr Sillars, whose name was taken in vain by the First Minister earlier, in a much more recent warning than the pamphlet dating back around 20 years ago that was dug up by Labour researchers, issued a strong warning about the dangers of entering into the euro in a recent article in The Times:

\"It is a major stepping stone to a federal superstate . . . removing one of the core aspects of national sovereignty\".

Yesterday, Mr Salmond criticised the Bank of England's action as

\"economic policy made in the south-east of England by the south-east of England and for the south-east of England\".

If he believes that the Bank of England is too distant to serve the interests of Scotland, how can he argue that the solution is to surrender control of the economy and interest rates to unaccountable bankers in Frankfurt? If what works for people in Aldershot will not work for people in Aberdeen, how on earth will they have anything in common with people in Athens? It is seriously irresponsible of the nationalists to deceive the people of Scotland in this way.

The Conservative party is committed to British membership of the European Union, and we are determined that it should work in the best interests of the people of Scotland. The issue of flexibility is at the core of this debate. Some may choose to focus the debate only on the economic criteria. We want it focused on the political implications of joining the single currency. It is a curious irony that while the other parties here are hell-bent on stripping Scotland's Parliament of its sovereignty, within only months of its inception, by handing over more powers to a European federal superstate, it is the Conservative party that is committed to maintaining the powers and responsibilities of our first ever democratically elected Parliament.

I move amendment S1M-258.2, to leave out from \"recognises\" to end and insert:

\"but does not believe that it would be in Scotland and Britain's interests to consider joining the single currency until its economic and political consequences have been properly assessed and believes that we should keep our independence in decision making.\"

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4513966+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C711181", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 265.0, "ContributionID": 711181, "EditedText": "Does Tavish Scott accept that the NFU's support for the euro is support that is based on entry at the correct exchange rate, which implies a substantial devaluation? Is that his policy as well?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does Tavish Scott accept that the NFU's support for the euro is support that is based on entry at the correct exchange rate, which implies a substantial devaluation? Is that his policy as well?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4513966+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2223E203P342C711182", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scott, Tavish", "ID": 2223, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Shetland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tavish Scott", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tavish Scott: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 267.0, "ContributionID": 711182, "EditedText": "The NFU has supported the euro for a considerable time. Its aspiration is to ensure stable exchange rates so that we can export to markets that are the future for Scotland's agricultural industry. I support that position. Liberal Democrats are taking forward a positive approach and setting a positive agenda to reform the EU, confront the concerns about fraud, reduce the democratic deficit and diminish our people's intransigence about what goes on in Brussels and Strasbourg. Liberal Democrat MEPs are demanding the creation of a European anti-fraud office, which is independent of the Commission, to be the European citizens' champion to tackle fraud and incompetence. Tory MEPs are opposing that measure. Liberal Democrats also have called for a constitution for Europe to help tackle waste and inefficiency. A constitution would define and limit the powers of Brussels. MSPs such as myself who represent constituencies in the Highlands and Islands seek co-operation from Europe on the problem of infectious salmon anaemia, which is a viral disease that is causing severe damage to a Scottish industry that employs 6,000 people, mostly in the Highlands and Islands. In Norway, the disease is managed in a sensitive way, to keep it under control while maintaining the industry. Within the EU, ISA is classed as exotic and as a list 1 disease. Attempts have been made to eradicate ISA, but recent news of the spread of the disease to new areas shows that that attempt is not working. However, the controls that have been imposed have been so draconian that, if left in place, the eradication policy may eradicate the salmon farming industry. The UK Government, led by the Scottish Executive, has been working in Europe for a relaxation of ISA controls. Now the Executive has clear grounds to push for the end to list 1 status, and for a move to follow the more realistic Norwegian practice. That must happen, because the industry cannot afford to wait. At times like these we need a co-operative relationship with Europe. We cannot expect to be given a sympathetic hearing if, like the Tories, we use the EU as a punch-bag. The UK's 10 votes gives us a Scottish voice backed by Westminster, which speaks louder than Scotland's voice on its own on vital Scottish interests. Europe has given stability to formerly unstable countries, democracy where there was none and prosperity where once there was poverty, but greater than all those achievements must be peace. Europe must make up for its failure to respond adequately to the Balkan crisis by building a stronger, wider, peaceful Europe. When so many people in the world are stateless, I want a Europe where I, as a Shetlander, a Scot and a Briton, can also be a European.", "EditedTextHTML": "The NFU has supported the euro for a considerable time. Its aspiration is to ensure stable exchange rates so that we can export to markets that are the future for Scotland's agricultural industry. I support that position.

Liberal Democrats are taking forward a positive approach and setting a positive agenda to reform the EU, confront the concerns about fraud, reduce the democratic deficit and diminish our people's intransigence about what goes on in Brussels and Strasbourg. Liberal Democrat MEPs are demanding the creation of a European anti-fraud office, which is independent of the Commission, to be the European citizens' champion to tackle fraud and incompetence. Tory MEPs are opposing that measure. Liberal Democrats also have called for a constitution for Europe to help tackle waste and inefficiency. A constitution would define and limit the powers of Brussels.

MSPs such as myself who represent constituencies in the Highlands and Islands seek co-operation from Europe on the problem of infectious salmon anaemia, which is a viral disease that is causing severe damage to a Scottish industry that employs 6,000 people, mostly in the Highlands and Islands. In Norway, the disease is managed in a sensitive way, to keep it under control while maintaining the industry. Within the EU, ISA is classed as exotic and as a list 1 disease. Attempts have been made to eradicate ISA, but recent news of the spread of the disease to new areas shows that that attempt is not working. However, the controls that have been imposed have been so draconian that, if left in place, the eradication policy may eradicate the salmon farming industry.

The UK Government, led by the Scottish Executive, has been working in Europe for a relaxation of ISA controls. Now the Executive has clear grounds to push for the end to list 1 status, and for a move to follow the more realistic Norwegian practice. That must happen, because the industry cannot afford to wait. At times like these we need a co-operative relationship with Europe. We cannot expect to be given a sympathetic hearing if, like the Tories, we use the EU as a punch-bag. The UK's 10 votes gives us a

Scottish voice backed by Westminster, which speaks louder than Scotland's voice on its own on vital Scottish interests.

Europe has given stability to formerly unstable countries, democracy where there was none and prosperity where once there was poverty, but greater than all those achievements must be peace. Europe must make up for its failure to respond adequately to the Balkan crisis by building a stronger, wider, peaceful Europe. When so many people in the world are stateless, I want a Europe where I, as a Shetlander, a Scot and a Briton, can also be a European.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4513966+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1878E208P502C711187", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Dr Winnie", "ID": 1878, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Winnie Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Winnie Ewing (Highlands and Islands) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 279.0, "ContributionID": 711187, "EditedText": "I want to thank the First Minister and the Executive for holding this debate, as it is the first opportunity that the Scottish National party has had to debate its flagship policy of independence in Europe. Like Alex, I want to be inside the room when the Council of Ministers makes the decisions. I want to be part of all those institutions, not just a lobbyist outside the room. Luxembourg—without a single bit of fish in its small but excellent country—is inside the room, even on fishing. I am happy about the extra clout in Europe that I concede that the Parliament has given us. Scotland House—to which I was not invited but which I will visit on my own—has had the same effect. That clout is demonstrated by the many delegations that wish to talk to or hear about the European Committee. Consider all those new consulates that are opening up. I would like to deal with some false claims. First, from time to time the claim is made that the SNP does not want the Parliament to work. Logically, we of all parties must want it to work, because we see it as a step on the road to independence. We want the people out there to say, \"This is a good thing. It is an improvement. Let us have more of a good thing.\" We of all parties want the Parliament to work and we will pledge ourselves to make it work. Another claim that is sometimes made, but which seems to be made less often now, is that Scotland would not get into Europe. That claim was made during many of my numerous European election campaigns, but it was refuted by the top legal expert in the European Union, Lord Mackenzie-Stuart, the head of the Court of Justice—the EU was not called the EU in those days, of course. That refutation was also repeated by the head legal expert of the European Commission, Dr Noe from Italy. Both of them quoted international law, saying that, when a treaty breaks up two countries that have been together in a union, both those countries will continue to be covered by the umbrella of the EU treaties. International law bears out that legal opinion, as can be seen in the case of Norway and Sweden earlier in the century, in the case of the Czechs and the Slovaks and even in the case of the Republic of Ireland, which remained part of the Commonwealth for many years after becoming independent. The First Minister claimed that the day of nation states is past. Looking at the map of Europe today, I find that an odd claim. Perhaps he should repeat it to the Czechs, the Slovaks, the Estonians, the Latvians, the Lithuanians and many of the other nation states that have re-emerged. He also claimed that for Scotland to be in the euro and England to be out would be a disaster. Perhaps he should discuss that claim with the Irish at ministerial level, as Alex Salmond and I have done. If independence in Europe is daft, as the Conservative party in Scotland claims, the Danes, the Irish, the Swedes and the Finns must all be daft. I am not clear about the Executive's position on the euro, even after listening to the First Minister's speech. Gordon Brown's attitude is summed up rather well in one of the heavy London papers, which said that it was like proposing marriage while saying to the girl, \"I can't marry you for some considerable years. I don't know when I can exactly and, when I do, there will be conditions, but I can't tell you what they are.\" That seems to be new Labour's position on the euro. At least the Tories' position is clear and, to be fair, so too is the Liberal Democrat position. Our position is clear: we want a referendum on the subject. It is claimed that Scotland benefits from having the United Kingdom as its big brother. After 24 years in the European Parliament and after seeing the desecration of Ravenscraig, which the Commission admits would not have closed if Scotland had been independent, all I can say is that big brother's achievements do not look very impressive. Nor has the UK helped us to avoid the sell-out of our fishing industry to Spain. I seem to remember that there was a manifesto promise about quota hopping, but we have not—", "EditedTextHTML": "I want to thank the First Minister and the Executive for holding this debate, as it is the first opportunity that the Scottish National party has had to debate its flagship policy of independence in Europe. Like Alex, I want to be inside the room when the Council of Ministers makes the decisions. I want to be part of all those institutions,

not just a lobbyist outside the room. Luxembourg—without a single bit of fish in its small but excellent country—is inside the room, even on fishing. I am happy about the extra clout in Europe that I concede that the Parliament has given us. Scotland House—to which I was not invited but which I will visit on my own—has had the same effect. That clout is demonstrated by the many delegations that wish to talk to or hear about the European Committee. Consider all those new consulates that are opening up.

I would like to deal with some false claims. First, from time to time the claim is made that the SNP does not want the Parliament to work. Logically, we of all parties must want it to work, because we see it as a step on the road to independence. We want the people out there to say, \"This is a good thing. It is an improvement. Let us have more of a good thing.\" We of all parties want the Parliament to work and we will pledge ourselves to make it work.

Another claim that is sometimes made, but which seems to be made less often now, is that Scotland would not get into Europe. That claim was made during many of my numerous European election campaigns, but it was refuted by the top legal expert in the European Union, Lord Mackenzie-Stuart, the head of the Court of Justice—the EU was not called the EU in those days, of course. That refutation was also repeated by the head legal expert of the European Commission, Dr Noe from Italy. Both of them quoted international law, saying that, when a treaty breaks up two countries that have been together in a union, both those countries will continue to be covered by the umbrella of the EU treaties.

International law bears out that legal opinion, as can be seen in the case of Norway and Sweden earlier in the century, in the case of the Czechs and the Slovaks and even in the case of the Republic of Ireland, which remained part of the Commonwealth for many years after becoming independent.

The First Minister claimed that the day of nation states is past. Looking at the map of Europe today, I find that an odd claim. Perhaps he should repeat it to the Czechs, the Slovaks, the Estonians, the Latvians, the Lithuanians and many of the other nation states that have re-emerged. He also claimed that for Scotland to be in the euro and England to be out would be a disaster. Perhaps he should discuss that claim with the Irish at ministerial level, as Alex Salmond and I have done. If independence in Europe is daft, as the Conservative party in Scotland claims, the Danes, the Irish, the Swedes and the Finns must all be daft.

I am not clear about the Executive's position on the euro, even after listening to the First Minister's speech. Gordon Brown's attitude is summed up rather well in one of the heavy London papers, which said that it was like proposing marriage while saying to the girl, \"I can't marry you for some considerable years. I don't know when I can exactly and, when I do, there will be conditions, but I can't tell you what they are.\" That seems to be new Labour's position on the euro. At least the Tories' position is clear and, to be fair, so too is the Liberal Democrat position. Our position is clear: we want a referendum on the subject.

It is claimed that Scotland benefits from having the United Kingdom as its big brother. After 24 years in the European Parliament and after seeing the desecration of Ravenscraig, which the Commission admits would not have closed if Scotland had been independent, all I can say is that big brother's achievements do not look very impressive. Nor has the UK helped us to avoid the sell-out of our fishing industry to Spain. I seem to remember that there was a manifesto promise about quota hopping, but we have not—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4513966+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C711189", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 283.0, "ContributionID": 711189, "EditedText": "She is winding up.", "EditedTextHTML": "She is winding up.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4513966+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1878E208P502C711190", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Dr Winnie", "ID": 1878, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Winnie Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 285.0, "ContributionID": 711190, "EditedText": "Do I have to wind up now? I am sorry, but I cannot take Ben Wallace's intervention. I want to mention the alcohol regime that is unfair to wine and beer industries. It was always said that the regime should regulate alcohol according to its strength, but the UK does not apply for a lot of the funds that are available. We did not get any funding for the Chunnel because we did not apply. Nor did we get lots of the available training funds or the funding that is available for small and medium enterprises. Our loss of objective 1 status was hailed as a great victory instead of a defeat, and the UK Government allowed lots of unsuitable legislation to be passed for the lack of having an independent voice to stop ridiculous legislation that does not suit Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "Do I have to wind up now? I am sorry, but I cannot take Ben Wallace's intervention.

I want to mention the alcohol regime that is unfair to wine and beer industries. It was always said that the regime should regulate alcohol according to its strength, but the UK does not apply for a lot of the funds that are available. We did not get any funding for the Chunnel because we did not apply. Nor did we get lots of the available training funds or the funding that is available for small and medium enterprises. Our loss of objective 1 status was hailed as a great victory instead of a defeat, and the UK Government allowed lots of unsuitable legislation to be passed for the lack of having an independent voice to stop ridiculous legislation that does not suit Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4513966+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C711199", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 305.0, "ContributionID": 711199, "EditedText": "Can Mr Wallace clarify whether the Tories are for ever and a day against the euro, and therefore against the federal state that he claims will follow? Does the word \"until\" in the amendment imply that, one day, they will be in favour of the euro?", "EditedTextHTML": "Can Mr Wallace clarify whether the Tories are for ever and a day against the euro, and therefore against the federal state that he claims will follow? Does the word \"until\" in the amendment imply that, one day, they will be in favour of the euro?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4513966+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1828E200P487C711202", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacDonald, Margo", "ID": 1828, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margo MacDonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Margo MacDonald (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 312.0, "ContributionID": 711202, "EditedText": "In supporting the amendment in the name of my friend Mr Salmond, I am not—as some might think—breaking the habit of a lifetime. Rather, I am giving voice to an opinion that I formed almost 40 years ago, when I listened to the voices of the British establishment—the members on the front benches of the House of Commons—debating their duty to join the then Common Market, to see it through, to follow the path of righteousness and to do things the British way. At that time, the finest products of Eton and Oxbridge were wrong to think that the French and the Germans would simply stand aside and let them take over. Similarly, the camp followers of the Blair crusade to do it the third way are wrong and arrogant to assume that they can claim leadership of the EU. It is true that the Tories can claim some leadership. Mrs Thatcher, along with Mitterrand and Kohl, developed the single market. I know that the Tories will not thank me for reminding them of that, but she did, and they have to live with the consequences. Roy Jenkins went native in Brussels, when he was president of the Commission, and the Labour party went in a huff. I remember the opt-outs from the socialist manifestos for the European parliamentary elections in the 1980s and 1990s. I wonder whether Donald Dewar, as an old Jenkinsite, will thank me for asking whether he considers that record strong enough for the Executive to claim the right to lead the European Union. What does he think of the fact that the EU is moving ahead to consolidate its political development, now that the penultimate stage of its economic development—the euro—is in place, without the superior leadership qualities of the British Government? The motion shows that although the Brits may have lost an empire, they have still not found a role big enough for their delusions of grandeur. It would be much better for the people who live in Scotland, and in England for that matter, to be represented in Europe by Governments without delusions of grandeur, which would approach the EU nations in a spirit of equality and fraternity. That would be unlike our own dear, gifted and sensitive Foreign Secretary, who urged people in Scotland to stick with the leadership and power of Britain in Europe, as a region, rather than join the smaller nations which—according to him—have no clout in the EU. Today, even Donald Dewar, a sensitive man who has visited Europe loads of times, stated that we would be leaving the strength of the big player behind us in going out on our own. We would not be going out on our own—we would be joining the other small nations of Europe. Perhaps when he sums up, the Deputy First Minister can tell us which small countries do not have the clout that Donald Dewar and Robin Cook want us to have. Is it Ireland, is it Finland, which currently has the presidency of the EU, or is it some of the applicant nations? Is the EU kidding on those nations that they will amount to anything if they join this club of the nations? As the amendment says, Scotland as an independent country can play a full and proper role in Europe. I urge members to support the amendment.", "EditedTextHTML": "In supporting the amendment in the name of my friend Mr Salmond, I am not—as some might think—breaking the habit of a lifetime. Rather, I am giving voice to an opinion that I formed almost 40 years ago, when I listened to the voices of the British establishment—the members on the front benches of the House of Commons—debating their duty to join the then Common Market, to see it through, to follow the path of righteousness and to do things the British way.

At that time, the finest products of Eton and Oxbridge were wrong to think that the French and the Germans would simply stand aside and let them take over. Similarly, the camp followers of the Blair crusade to do it the third way are wrong and arrogant to assume that they can claim leadership of the EU.

It is true that the Tories can claim some leadership. Mrs Thatcher, along with Mitterrand and Kohl, developed the single market. I know that the Tories will not thank me for reminding them of that, but she did, and they have to live with the consequences. Roy Jenkins went native in Brussels, when he was president of the Commission, and the Labour party went in a huff. I remember the opt-outs from the socialist manifestos for the European parliamentary elections in the 1980s and 1990s.

I wonder whether Donald Dewar, as an old Jenkinsite, will thank me for asking whether he considers that record strong enough for the Executive to claim the right to lead the European Union. What does he think of the fact that the EU is moving ahead to consolidate its political development, now that the penultimate stage of its economic development—the euro—is in place, without the superior leadership qualities of the British Government?

The motion shows that although the Brits may have lost an empire, they have still not found a role big enough for their delusions of grandeur. It would be much better for the people who live in Scotland, and in England for that matter, to be represented in Europe by Governments without delusions of grandeur, which would approach the EU nations in a spirit of equality and fraternity.

That would be unlike our own dear, gifted and sensitive Foreign Secretary, who urged people in Scotland to stick with the leadership and power of Britain in Europe, as a region, rather than join the smaller nations which—according to him—have no clout in the EU. Today, even Donald Dewar, a sensitive man who has visited Europe loads of times, stated that we would be leaving the strength of the big player behind us in going out on our own.

We would not be going out on our own—we would be joining the other small nations of Europe. Perhaps when he sums up, the Deputy First Minister can tell us which small countries do not have the clout that Donald Dewar and Robin Cook want us to have. Is it Ireland, is it Finland, which currently has the presidency of the EU, or is it some of the applicant nations? Is the EU kidding on those nations that they will amount to anything if they join this club of the nations?

As the amendment says, Scotland as an independent country can play a full and proper role in Europe. I urge members to support the amendment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4513966+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C711213", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 336.0, "ContributionID": 711213, "EditedText": "You have one minute, Mr Raffan.", "EditedTextHTML": "You have one minute, Mr Raffan.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4513966+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C711217", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 344.0, "ContributionID": 711217, "EditedText": "Please close, Mr Raffan.", "EditedTextHTML": "Please close, Mr Raffan.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4513966+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1828E200P487C711219", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacDonald, Margo", "ID": 1828, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margo MacDonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms MacDonald: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 348.0, "ContributionID": 711219, "EditedText": "Will Mr Raffan give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr Raffan give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4513966+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C711222", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 354.0, "ContributionID": 711222, "EditedText": "Let Mr Salmond tell us about his policies before he questions us about ours.", "EditedTextHTML": "Let Mr Salmond tell us about his policies before he questions us about ours.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4513966+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C711227", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Goldie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 365.0, "ContributionID": 711227, "EditedText": "Those are not the terms of our amendment. Ben Wallace made the fair point that the euro clearly has constitutional implications that point to a federal state. We do not know whether that will be the outcome; hence our preservation of flexibility. We are not rushing this country into anything, but are standing back to see what happens. We can then take an informed decision, rather than one into which we are bullied by some form of political dogma. We want Europe to work and have no interest in Scotland being in a weak or unsuccessful Europe. We believe that Europe can work better if there is greater openness in decision making in Brussels and if there is improved ministerial accountability, with new procedures at Westminster. Above all, the British citizen wants to know what is being agreed to in Europe. There is some merit in investigating whether Euro-budgets can be reduced and whether spending priorities can be reformed. We would certainly oppose any attempt to abolish UK frontiers or any further erosion of the British veto. We believe that, although every member state must accept the rights and responsibilities of the single market and core elements of an open, free- trading and competitive Europe, Governments should have greater freedom in deciding which other aspects of European policy to adopt. That is why we advocate the flexibility clause. This is not a party—", "EditedTextHTML": "Those are not the terms of our amendment. Ben Wallace made the fair point that the euro clearly has constitutional implications that point to a federal state. We do not know whether that will be the outcome; hence our preservation of flexibility. We are not rushing this country into anything, but are standing back to see what happens. We can then take an informed decision, rather than one into which we are bullied by some form of political dogma.

We want Europe to work and have no interest in Scotland being in a weak or unsuccessful Europe. We believe that Europe can work better if there is greater openness in decision making in Brussels and if there is improved ministerial accountability, with new procedures at Westminster. Above all, the British citizen wants to know what is being agreed to in Europe. There is some merit in investigating whether Euro-budgets can be reduced and whether spending priorities can be reformed. We would certainly oppose any attempt to abolish UK frontiers or any further erosion of the British veto.

We believe that, although every member state must accept the rights and responsibilities of the single market and core elements of an open, free- trading and competitive Europe, Governments should have greater freedom in deciding which other aspects of European policy to adopt. That is why we advocate the flexibility clause. This is not a party—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4513966+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C711233", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice (Mr Jim Wallace): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 379.0, "ContributionID": 711233, "EditedText": "I welcome the opportunity to have this debate today. I will not spend time bandying around how many minutes speakers spent attacking others, but I note in passing that Mr Swinney spent a minute talking about tomorrow's debate before he got on to talking about today's. Today's debate clearly demonstrated one or two things. I think that a majority in this Parliament shares our view that the Scottish Executive should continue to pursue a close positive relationship with the European Union. That was the view expressed by a number of speakers. I think that it is the general view of the SNP that we should have a close involvement with the European Union. Tavish Scott expressed that wish on behalf of the Liberal Democrats. Lewis Macdonald made the same point. Irene Oldfather talked specifically about the importance of enlargement and the additional markets that it can bring to Scotland. Cathy Jamieson talked about the need to tackle unemployment and deprivation on a Community- wide basis. It is important that we remember that yesterday marked the 10th anniversary of the fall of the Berlin wall and the opportunities that that created for enlargement in Europe and for the peoples of Europe to come together. Tomorrow, of course, we will remember the armistice of 11 November 1918. What inspired the founders of then European Community in the aftermath of the second world war was the need to bring together the nations of western Europe in particular. The fact that we have had more than half a century of peace in western Europe is a great tribute to the vision of those who set up the original European institutions, which have developed over the years. It is also important that the work that Scotland House is doing was acknowledged. Alex Salmond said that he had sought to discover from the Scottish Executive website who was the minister responsible for Europe.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the opportunity to have this debate today. I will not spend time bandying around how many minutes speakers spent attacking others, but I note in passing that Mr Swinney spent a minute talking about tomorrow's debate before he got on to talking about today's.

Today's debate clearly demonstrated one or two things. I think that a majority in this Parliament shares our view that the Scottish Executive should continue to pursue a close positive relationship with the European Union. That was the view expressed by a number of speakers. I think that it is the general view of the SNP that we should have a close involvement with the European Union. Tavish Scott expressed that wish on behalf of the Liberal Democrats. Lewis Macdonald made the same point. Irene Oldfather talked specifically about the importance of enlargement and the additional markets that it can bring to Scotland. Cathy Jamieson talked about the need to tackle unemployment and deprivation on a Community- wide basis.

It is important that we remember that yesterday marked the 10th anniversary of the fall of the Berlin wall and the opportunities that that created for enlargement in Europe and for the peoples of Europe to come together. Tomorrow, of course, we will remember the armistice of 11 November 1918. What inspired the founders of then European Community in the aftermath of the second world war was the need to bring together the nations of western Europe in particular. The fact that we have had more than half a century of peace in western Europe is a great tribute to the vision of those who set up the original European institutions, which have developed over the years.

It is also important that the work that Scotland House is doing was acknowledged. Alex Salmond said that he had sought to discover from the Scottish Executive website who was the minister responsible for Europe.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4513966+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C711235", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 383.0, "ContributionID": 711235, "EditedText": "I will give way in a moment.All ministers have responsibility for the European dimension of their departmental responsibilities, but the First Minister and I take the lead, as we have done today. Jack McConnell co-ordinates policy over the whole range of European issues, deals with European financing and is a member of the UK ministerial steering group on Europe.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will give way in a moment.

All ministers have responsibility for the European dimension of their departmental responsibilities, but the First Minister and I take the lead, as we have done today. Jack McConnell co-ordinates policy over the whole range of European issues, deals with European financing and is a member of the UK ministerial steering group on Europe.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4513966+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C711241", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 395.0, "ContributionID": 711241, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4513966+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C711242", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 397.0, "ContributionID": 711242, "EditedText": "No. Well, all right.", "EditedTextHTML": "No. Well, all right.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4513966+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1821E295P538C711245", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Mrs Margaret", "ID": 1821, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Moray" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Margaret Ewing (Moray) (SNP) rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 403.0, "ContributionID": 711245, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4513966+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C711246", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 405.0, "ContributionID": 711246, "EditedText": "Sarah Boyack has also, I think, taken part in an important informal meeting of ministers, as has Mr Sam Galbraith. The statements being made are not a fair reflection of the involvement of Scottish ministers, who, in addition to attending those meetings, have met many of the senior commissioners, especially during that week in Brussels. Our involvement in the European Union is quite considerable. I am sure that it will grow, develop and deepen as this Parliament continues. Another clear point is that, because the European Union is the largest single market, we need to be part of it. For too long, this country has had a somewhat ambivalent attitude towards Europe. The ambivalence of the Conservative party came through today—a flexible approach that seems to be an opt-out approach. Mr Chris Patten described that kind of opt-out approach as incomprehensible. It says something about the state of the Conservative party when someone as distinguished as Douglas Hurd is swept aside and dismissed as was done by Mr McLetchie in his speech.", "EditedTextHTML": "Sarah Boyack has also, I think, taken part in an important informal meeting of ministers, as has Mr Sam Galbraith. The statements being made are not a fair reflection of the involvement of Scottish ministers, who, in addition to attending those meetings, have met many of the senior commissioners, especially during that week in Brussels. Our involvement in the European Union is quite considerable. I am sure that it will grow, develop and deepen as this Parliament continues.

Another clear point is that, because the European Union is the largest single market, we need to be part of it. For too long, this country has had a somewhat ambivalent attitude towards Europe. The ambivalence of the Conservative party came through today—a flexible approach that seems to be an opt-out approach. Mr Chris Patten described that kind of opt-out approach as incomprehensible. It says something about the state of the Conservative party when someone as distinguished as Douglas Hurd is swept aside and dismissed as was done by Mr McLetchie in his speech.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4513966+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C711248", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 409.0, "ContributionID": 711248, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C711253", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 419.0, "ContributionID": 711253, "EditedText": "I am in my last minute.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am in my last minute.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C711257", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 427.0, "ContributionID": 711257, "EditedText": "I do not accept the Scottish National party's point that somehow or other we would be better off as an independent country within the European Union. I will not accept that because it foresees us breaking our single currency link with the rest of the UK although more than half of all exports from Scotland go to the rest of the UK, which is, at more than six times the size of the next largest market—France—the largest market for manufactured exports.", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not accept the Scottish National party's point that somehow or other we would be better off as an independent country within the European Union. I will not accept that because it foresees us breaking our single currency link with the rest of the UK although more than half of all exports from Scotland go to the rest of the UK, which is, at more than six times the size of the next largest market—France—the largest market for manufactured exports.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C711261", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 435.0, "ContributionID": 711261, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way now?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way now?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711262", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 437.0, "ContributionID": 711262, "EditedText": "The minister is winding up.", "EditedTextHTML": "The minister is winding up.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711264", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27028, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 441.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 441.0, "ID": 27028, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 443.0, "ContributionID": 711264, "EditedText": "There are three questions to be put as a result of today's business. The first is, that amendment S1M-258.1, in the name of Mr Alex Salmond, which seeks to amend motion S1M-258, in the name of the First Minister, on working together in Europe, be agreed to. Are we agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "There are three questions to be put as a result of today's business. The first is, that amendment S1M-258.1, in the name of Mr Alex Salmond, which seeks to amend motion S1M-258, in the name of the First Minister, on working together in Europe, be agreed to. Are we agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711265", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27028, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 441.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 441.0, "ID": 27028, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 445.0, "ContributionID": 711265, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711267", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27028, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 441.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 441.0, "ID": 27028, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 449.0, "ContributionID": 711267, "EditedText": "FOR Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)AGAINST Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)ABSTENTIONS Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)

AGAINST

Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)

ABSTENTIONS

Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711270", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27028, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 441.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 441.0, "ID": 27028, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 453.0, "ContributionID": 711270, "EditedText": "The second question is, that amendment S1M-258.2, in the name of David McLetchie, which also seeks to amend motion S1M-258, be agreed to. Are we agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "The second question is, that amendment S1M-258.2, in the name of David McLetchie, which also seeks to amend motion S1M-258, be agreed to. Are we agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711284", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Borders Rail Link", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27029, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 475.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 475.0, "ID": 27029, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 476.0, "ContributionID": 711284, "EditedText": "The final item of business is the members' debate on motion S1M-237, in the name of Christine Grahame, on the subject of the Borders rail link. Members who are staying for the debate should leave quietly and quickly in fairness to the member who has the debate. More members have requested to speak in this debate than can possibly be accommodated—we have half an hour. I therefore ask members to be as succinct as possible. I was on the last train on the Borders line. I feel that I am revisiting history. I am not allowed to take part in any campaign—I am totally neutral on the issue—but I hope that it is noted that I am here in the chair to take an interest in the debate.", "EditedTextHTML": "The final item of business is the members' debate on motion S1M-237, in the name of Christine Grahame, on the subject of the Borders rail link. Members who are staying for the debate should leave quietly and quickly in fairness to the member who has the debate.

More members have requested to speak in this debate than can possibly be accommodated—we have half an hour. I therefore ask members to be as succinct as possible.

I was on the last train on the Borders line. I feel that I am revisiting history. I am not allowed to take part in any campaign—I am totally neutral on the issue—but I hope that it is noted that I am here in the chair to take an interest in the debate.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711286", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Borders Rail Link", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27029, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 475.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 475.0, "ID": 27029, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 479.0, "ContributionID": 711286, "EditedText": "That the Parliament recognises the economic problems in the Borders and, appreciating the necessity for good transport links as crucial to the social and economic advancement of the area and acknowledging the pioneering work of Borders Transport Futures and the efforts of Campaign for Borders Rail, Scottish Borders Council, Scottish Borders Enterprise, and local MPs and MSPs of all parties, gives its support to the cross-party campaign for the restoration of a Borders rail link.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament recognises the economic problems in the Borders and, appreciating the necessity for good transport links as crucial to the social and economic advancement of the area and acknowledging the pioneering work of Borders Transport Futures and the efforts of Campaign for Borders Rail, Scottish Borders Council, Scottish Borders Enterprise, and local MPs and MSPs of all parties, gives its support to the cross-party campaign for the restoration of a Borders rail link.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1762E216P508C711315", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Borders Rail Link", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27029, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 475.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 475.0, "ID": 27029, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Elder, Dorothy-Grace", "ID": 1762, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 545.0, "ContributionID": 711315, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2044E178P334C711288", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Borders Rail Link", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27029, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 475.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 475.0, "ID": 27029, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jenkins, Ian", "ID": 2044, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ian Jenkins", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ian Jenkins (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 484.0, "ContributionID": 711288, "EditedText": "I, too, am glad that you are here, Sir David. I remember that, in around 1965, you gave me a rather grubby copy of a report that you had compiled about the railway. Last week, when we discussed the strategic roads review, the minister said frequently that travellers must be given a choice. As she will know, my constituents have virtually no choice in transport. There is no sea transport—although that is no one's fault—no air transport and no rail transport. There are only roads, and they are, as Christine Grahame said, under severe pressure. There is a patchy bus service, but there are problems with the quality of the buses, timetables, accessibility and costs. The choice for the Borders is clear—we must extend the rail system and create a permanent link to our capital and the rest of the nation. When people talk about the Waverley line, there is a danger that they talk about it nostalgically and sentimentally. We cannot work with nostalgia and sentiment. Rail campaigners are not looking backwards—although I do not say that they never look back—they are looking forwards to the sustainable future that we need. We must be realistic. A feasibility study is coming. I welcome that and the information it will give us. If we are to change things—as we must— we must have vision, courage and commitment. We must be prepared to take serious note of the feasibility study but we must also examine it critically. I hope that the study does not present only a technocrat's view—I want to see a vision of the potentially vibrant future that a rail link could bring to the Borders. A rail link would create a corridor of economic activity that would bring jobs to the area and bring people to live, work and have their being there. It would help shops and trades to be viable in the future. It would give our people access to the heart of Edinburgh and it would give tourists access to the heart of the Borders. It would stop hundreds of cars coming and pumping out pollution and taking up hundreds of parking spaces. All those people could travel on a single train. A line to Carlisle would give us access to the south and open up the Borders to English and European tourists. In the economic development plan that was endorsed by ministers such as Gus MacDonald and Brian Wilson, two of the main issues were the creation and maintenance of vibrant communities and making the Borders a connected place. Ms Boyack, you have a chance to do that with your decision on the rail link. The transport infrastructure of the Borders must be improved—that includes roads, rail and public and private transport. The biggest single thing the minister could do is bring the railway to the Borders. If you and the people involved in the feasibility study really believe—as I think you do— in the value and importance of rail as a catalyst to sustainable economic growth and success, I ask you put your weight and authority behind the campaign to bring rail to the Borders. I want you to go to your colleagues in the Scottish Executive—", "EditedTextHTML": "I, too, am glad that you are here, Sir David. I remember that, in around 1965, you gave me a rather grubby copy of a report that you had compiled about the railway.

Last week, when we discussed the strategic roads review, the minister said frequently that travellers must be given a choice. As she will know, my constituents have virtually no choice in transport. There is no sea transport—although that is no one's fault—no air transport and no rail transport. There are only roads, and they are, as Christine Grahame said, under severe pressure. There is a patchy bus service, but there are problems with the quality of the buses, timetables, accessibility and costs.

The choice for the Borders is clear—we must extend the rail system and create a permanent link to our capital and the rest of the nation. When people talk about the Waverley line, there is a danger that they talk about it nostalgically and sentimentally. We cannot work with nostalgia and sentiment. Rail campaigners are not looking backwards—although I do not say that they never look back—they are looking forwards to the sustainable future that we need.

We must be realistic. A feasibility study is coming. I welcome that and the information it will give us. If we are to change things—as we must— we must have vision, courage and commitment. We must be prepared to take serious note of the feasibility study but we must also examine it critically. I hope that the study does not present only a technocrat's view—I want to see a vision of the potentially vibrant future that a rail link could bring to the Borders.

A rail link would create a corridor of economic activity that would bring jobs to the area and bring people to live, work and have their being there. It would help shops and trades to be viable in the future. It would give our people access to the heart of Edinburgh and it would give tourists access to the heart of the Borders. It would stop hundreds of cars coming and pumping out pollution and taking up hundreds of parking spaces. All those people could travel on a single train.

A line to Carlisle would give us access to the south and open up the Borders to English and European tourists. In the economic development plan that was endorsed by ministers such as Gus MacDonald and Brian Wilson, two of the main issues were the creation and maintenance of vibrant communities and making the Borders a connected place. Ms Boyack, you have a chance to do that with your decision on the rail link.

The transport infrastructure of the Borders must be improved—that includes roads, rail and public and private transport. The biggest single thing the minister could do is bring the railway to the Borders. If you and the people involved in the feasibility study really believe—as I think you do— in the value and importance of rail as a catalyst to sustainable economic growth and success, I ask you put your weight and authority behind the campaign to bring rail to the Borders.

I want you to go to your colleagues in the Scottish Executive—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2044E178P334C711290", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Borders Rail Link", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27029, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 475.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 475.0, "ID": 27029, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jenkins, Ian", "ID": 2044, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ian Jenkins", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ian Jenkins: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 488.0, "ContributionID": 711290, "EditedText": "I am sorry, Sir David. I want Ms Boyack—", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry, Sir David. I want Ms Boyack—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C711293", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Borders Rail Link", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27029, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 475.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 475.0, "ID": 27029, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Murray Tosh (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 495.0, "ContributionID": 711293, "EditedText": "I wonder how many members have used the Waverley line. I remember using it as a child when I was growing up in Hawick. The viaduct across the Teviot dominated the landscape. I remember my mother trailing me up to the station yard to pay the weekly coal bill and all the merchants who clustered round the station. The railway line was at the heart of the community and was an important artery. I left Hawick in 1960 and have lived in many other parts of Scotland since. Wherever I have lived, there has been a train station. It would be hard to find a substantial community that does not have fairly ready access to a railway line. Ian Jenkins and Christine Grahame are correct: the railway initiative relates to important issues for the Borders. There is a loss of young people in the area. There is a difficulty in attracting inward investment. There are deep-seated problems in the Borders of low wages and lack of variety of employment opportunities. I suggest to the minister that there is an important social inclusion aspect, particularly near Hawick, where it is difficult for people to travel distances to find employment. Opening up a rail link from the central Borders in each direction would enhance the industrial and employment prospects of Borders people and afford an important boost to tourism. I hope that the Executive will see this as a strategically important economic and social issue. I think that there is substantial support for the motion from all parties. I will stop at that point as I realise that many members want to speak.", "EditedTextHTML": "I wonder how many members have used the Waverley line. I remember using it as a child when I was growing up in Hawick. The viaduct across the Teviot dominated the landscape. I remember my mother trailing me up to the station yard to pay the weekly coal bill and all the merchants who clustered round the station. The railway line was at the heart of the community and was an important artery.

I left Hawick in 1960 and have lived in many other parts of Scotland since. Wherever I have lived, there has been a train station. It would be hard to find a substantial community that does not have fairly ready access to a railway line.

Ian Jenkins and Christine Grahame are correct: the railway initiative relates to important issues for the Borders. There is a loss of young people in the area. There is a difficulty in attracting inward investment. There are deep-seated problems in the Borders of low wages and lack of variety of employment opportunities. I suggest to the minister that there is an important social inclusion aspect, particularly near Hawick, where it is difficult for people to travel distances to find employment.

Opening up a rail link from the central Borders in each direction would enhance the industrial and employment prospects of Borders people and afford an important boost to tourism. I hope that the Executive will see this as a strategically important economic and social issue. I think that there is substantial support for the motion from all parties.

I will stop at that point as I realise that many members want to speak.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711296", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Borders Rail Link", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27029, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 475.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 475.0, "ID": 27029, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 501.0, "ContributionID": 711296, "EditedText": "I am sorry, I have you on my list. I call Mike Russell.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry, I have you on my list. I call Mike Russell.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C711297", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Borders Rail Link", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27029, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 475.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 475.0, "ID": 27029, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell (South of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 504.0, "ContributionID": 711297, "EditedText": "There is no doubt that, throughout the Borders, there is a tremendous desire for an improvement in the quality of life, for jobs to be created and to enter the 20th century, if not the 21st. It seems that, when development takes place, other places are given priority and Borders people feel left out. The fact that we are having this debate symbolises the fact that the Borders deserves attention from the Parliament. If one were to poll the people of the Borders on what issue they would like attention to be paid to, the No 1 issue would be that their area should feel connected again to the whole of Scotland and particularly to Edinburgh. There are questions about the viability of a rail link that would go all the way to Carlisle. The essential nature of the debate, however, is the ability of the Executive to give the people of the Borders an indication that they are being listened to and that there is a desire to help them. I am always nervous when we get to a debate and the Executive has not leaked anything. It makes me think that we will not hear anything from it in the debate. It is possible, however, that the minister is holding on to a nugget of information that she will allow us to have. If that is the case, we will be immensely grateful. However, if the people of the Borders hear nothing, that will send a message that will not be lost on them. There is a great deal of resentment about what happened with Viasystems, a matter that my friend Christine Grahame was deeply involved in. There is resentment over the continuing erosion of traditional industries, not only in textiles but in farming. If, today, the people in the Borders hear that nothing, or that the minimum, is to happen, that message will be pressed home strongly in the area—not just by the minister's party, but by a party that is in partnership and seems to have gained little out of that partnership. I ask the minister to give us some hope.", "EditedTextHTML": "There is no doubt that, throughout the Borders, there is a tremendous desire for an improvement in the quality of life, for jobs to be created and to enter the 20th century, if not the 21st. It seems that, when development takes place, other places are given priority and Borders people feel left out.

The fact that we are having this debate symbolises the fact that the Borders deserves attention from the Parliament. If one were to poll the people of the Borders on what issue they would like attention to be paid to, the No 1 issue would be that their area should feel connected again to the whole of Scotland and particularly to Edinburgh.

There are questions about the viability of a rail link that would go all the way to Carlisle. The essential nature of the debate, however, is the ability of the Executive to give the people of the Borders an indication that they are being listened to and that there is a desire to help them.

I am always nervous when we get to a debate and the Executive has not leaked anything. It makes me think that we will not hear anything from it in the debate. It is possible, however, that the minister is holding on to a nugget of information that she will allow us to have. If that is the case, we will be immensely grateful. However, if the people of the Borders hear nothing, that will send a message that will not be lost on them.

There is a great deal of resentment about what happened with Viasystems, a matter that my friend Christine Grahame was deeply involved in. There is resentment over the continuing erosion of traditional industries, not only in textiles but in farming.

If, today, the people in the Borders hear that nothing, or that the minimum, is to happen, that message will be pressed home strongly in the area—not just by the minister's party, but by a party that is in partnership and seems to have gained little out of that partnership. I ask the minister to give us some hope.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1990E181P340C711299", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Borders Rail Link", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27029, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 475.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 475.0, "ID": 27029, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robson, Euan", "ID": 1990, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Roxburgh and Berwickshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Euan Robson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Euan Robson (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 509.0, "ContributionID": 711299, "EditedText": "I pay tribute, as is done in the motion, to those who have campaigned steadfastly over many years for a rail link to the Borders. Between 1969 and 1970, a short-lived Border union railway company pioneered some work. Recently, Borders Transport Futures Ltd has kept the flame alive. A formidable and perhaps unexpected ally recently emerged in the shape of Mr John Nelson, the former director of Network SouthEast and the east-coast main line manager at the time of electrification. He told Rail magazine: \"I am convinced the Waverley scheme is a runner. When I first heard of it, I admit I was very sceptical, but I have met Borders Transport Futures, visited the route and came back thinking ‘It's not a crazy idea'.\" Mr Nelson says that there is a strong case for considering a third Anglo-Scottish through-freight route, because the east-coast railway line is already booked solid and the west-coast line may soon follow suit. He says: \"The line has to be properly project-managed. It's a case of taking it a piece at a time.\" That is clearly the way forward. We should not regard this as simply a branch line of the railway network; we should view it as a national scheme. We should not worry about spreading the costs over several years, as there are huge advantages in doing so. If someone takes the line to St Boswells, for instance, they may then be able to go in two separate directions—down to Hawick and through to Newcastleton, or to the eastern Borders on a link through to Berwick. I urge the minister to give due consideration to the feasibility study and I endorse what other members have said. The Borders is awaiting some action. Furthermore, this should not be regarded as a project simply for one part of Scotland; it would benefit the whole nation.", "EditedTextHTML": "I pay tribute, as is done in the motion, to those who have campaigned steadfastly over many years for a rail link to the Borders. Between 1969 and 1970, a short-lived Border union railway company pioneered some work. Recently, Borders Transport Futures Ltd has kept the flame alive.

A formidable and perhaps unexpected ally recently emerged in the shape of Mr John Nelson,

the former director of Network SouthEast and the east-coast main line manager at the time of electrification. He told Rail magazine:

\"I am convinced the Waverley scheme is a runner. When I first heard of it, I admit I was very sceptical, but I have met Borders Transport Futures, visited the route and came back thinking ‘It's not a crazy idea'.\"

Mr Nelson says that there is a strong case for considering a third Anglo-Scottish through-freight route, because the east-coast railway line is already booked solid and the west-coast line may soon follow suit. He says:

\"The line has to be properly project-managed. It's a case of taking it a piece at a time.\"

That is clearly the way forward. We should not regard this as simply a branch line of the railway network; we should view it as a national scheme. We should not worry about spreading the costs over several years, as there are huge advantages in doing so. If someone takes the line to St Boswells, for instance, they may then be able to go in two separate directions—down to Hawick and through to Newcastleton, or to the eastern Borders on a link through to Berwick.

I urge the minister to give due consideration to the feasibility study and I endorse what other members have said. The Borders is awaiting some action. Furthermore, this should not be regarded as a project simply for one part of Scotland; it would benefit the whole nation.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1803E78P291C711305", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Borders Rail Link", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27029, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 475.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 475.0, "ID": 27029, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gillon, Karen", "ID": 1803, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Clydesdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Karen Gillon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Karen Gillon (Clydesdale) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 522.0, "ContributionID": 711305, "EditedText": "I support the motion, although, unlike the Presiding Officer and Mr Murray Tosh, I am too young to remember the railway in the Borders. I was born and brought up in the Borders—as they say, you can take the person out of the Borders, but you cannot take the Borders out of the person. I am proud of that. It is an excellent regional community that is made up of people who care very much about where they live and what they do. They are rightly proud of their local communities. The extension of a railway line into the Borders would help to keep young people in the Borders— young people such as myself, who moved away because they had to go to university or for jobs, training or other education. A rail link from the Borders to Edinburgh would play a vital role in keeping those young people at home. It takes someone who lives in Jedburgh two hours and 10 minutes to travel by bus to Edinburgh, and it costs £6.25 for a single ticket. It is simply not feasible for a student to stay at home while maintaining their studies. That holds true throughout the Borders. I welcome the feasibility study. It shows that, at last, a Government is taking the Borders seriously. It is an area of Scotland that has been neglected, and viewed as irrelevant, for far too long. The Borders is the entry to Scotland for many people, and what they see when they enter Scotland forms the impression that they have of the country. We should rightly be proud of the Borders and should seek to expand the opportunities that are available to people there. The extension of the rail link is an important step for the whole Borders community. I hope that the minister—in future, if not today—will be able to give that rail link her full support.", "EditedTextHTML": "I support the motion, although, unlike the Presiding Officer and Mr Murray Tosh, I am too young to remember the railway in the Borders. I was born and brought up in the Borders—as they say, you can take the person out of the Borders, but you cannot take the Borders out of the person. I am proud of that. It is an excellent regional community that is made up of people who care very much about where they live and what they do. They are rightly proud of their local communities.

The extension of a railway line into the Borders would help to keep young people in the Borders— young people such as myself, who moved away because they had to go to university or for jobs, training or other education. A rail link from the Borders to Edinburgh would play a vital role in keeping those young people at home. It takes someone who lives in Jedburgh two hours and 10 minutes to travel by bus to Edinburgh, and it costs £6.25 for a single ticket. It is simply not feasible for a student to stay at home while maintaining their studies. That holds true throughout the Borders.

I welcome the feasibility study. It shows that, at last, a Government is taking the Borders seriously. It is an area of Scotland that has been neglected, and viewed as irrelevant, for far too long. The Borders is the entry to Scotland for many people, and what they see when they enter Scotland forms the impression that they have of the country. We should rightly be proud of the Borders and should seek to expand the opportunities that are available to people there. The extension of the rail link is an important step for the whole Borders community. I hope that the minister—in future, if not today—will be able to give that rail link her full support.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711306", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Borders Rail Link", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27029, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 475.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 475.0, "ID": 27029, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 524.0, "ContributionID": 711306, "EditedText": "If they take no more than a minute each, I shall allow Mr Mundell and Mr Harper to speak. I hope that they can manage that.", "EditedTextHTML": "If they take no more than a minute each, I shall allow Mr Mundell and Mr Harper to speak. I hope that they can manage that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711319", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Borders Rail Link", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27029, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 475.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 475.0, "ID": 27029, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 553.0, "ContributionID": 711319, "EditedText": "Meeting closed at 17:39.", "EditedTextHTML": "Meeting closed at 17:39.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:16.4670175+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711057", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27026, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 6.0, "ID": 27026, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 11.0, "ContributionID": 711057, "EditedText": "I regret to say that I heard that interview this morning. While it is fine for ministers to trail proceedings of the Parliament on the radio—that is a regular procedure—when I heard that the figure of £20 million was to be announced to the Parliament, I was a little taken aback. As I said last week, it is a matter for ministerial judgment, but we would prefer to hear announcements in the chamber first, rather than on the radio.", "EditedTextHTML": "I regret to say that I heard that interview this morning. While it is fine for ministers to trail proceedings of the Parliament on the radio—that is a regular procedure—when I heard that the figure of £20 million was to be announced to the Parliament, I was a little taken aback. As I said last week, it is a matter for ministerial judgment, but we would prefer to hear announcements in the chamber first, rather than on the radio.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2234E7P20C711058", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27026, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 6.0, "ID": 27026, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Aitken, Bill", "ID": 2234, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bill Aitken", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bill Aitken (Glasgow) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 13.0, "ContributionID": 711058, "EditedText": "On a point of order.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2234E7P20C711060", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27026, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 6.0, "ID": 27026, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Aitken, Bill", "ID": 2234, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bill Aitken", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bill Aitken: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 17.0, "ContributionID": 711060, "EditedText": "It is. Given that this is at least the second time that this matter has had to be raised by you in this chamber, will you undertake to raise the matter with the First Minister, as this is an intolerable state of affairs?", "EditedTextHTML": "It is. Given that this is at least the second time that this matter has had to be raised by you in this chamber, will you undertake to raise the matter with the First Minister, as this is an intolerable state of affairs?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711063", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27026, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 6.0, "ID": 27026, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 23.0, "ContributionID": 711063, "EditedText": "Tom McCabe, do you have a point of order as well?", "EditedTextHTML": "Tom McCabe, do you have a point of order as well?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711065", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27026, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 6.0, "ID": 27026, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 27.0, "ContributionID": 711065, "EditedText": "Let us hear the statement.", "EditedTextHTML": "Let us hear the statement.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2234E7P20C711070", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27026, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 6.0, "ID": 27026, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Aitken, Bill", "ID": 2234, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bill Aitken", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bill Aitken: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 38.0, "ContributionID": 711070, "EditedText": "I am obliged to the minister for her statement and for the fact that it was released in advance. Of the £14 million referred to in the minister's statement, how much relates to new beds in hostels? Does she accept that the report does not tell us anything that we did not already know, as it merely highlights the problem and the fact that this is a growing problem in respect of the scale and profile of the rough sleepers involved? Does the minister accept that she is addressing the problem from the wrong perspective? While she refers to the problem of people departing hostels to go on to the streets, she does not deal with the real issue of people going from the streets to hostels and then not going anywhere. Much more attention should be paid to the fact that accommodation should be available to people after they leave hostels.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am obliged to the minister for her statement and for the fact that it was released in advance.

Of the £14 million referred to in the minister's statement, how much relates to new beds in hostels? Does she accept that the report does not tell us anything that we did not already know, as it merely highlights the problem and the fact that this is a growing problem in respect of the scale and profile of the rough sleepers involved?

Does the minister accept that she is addressing the problem from the wrong perspective? While she refers to the problem of people departing hostels to go on to the streets, she does not deal with the real issue of people going from the streets to hostels and then not going anywhere. Much more attention should be paid to the fact that accommodation should be available to people after they leave hostels.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C711071", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27026, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 6.0, "ID": 27026, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 40.0, "ContributionID": 711071, "EditedText": "Those are two very pertinent issues. We are very concerned about what is happening in terms of waiting lists. Jackie Baillie's task force is examining that issue and I expect the Parliament to debate the conclusion of her findings next February. Rough sleeping is a microcosm of a much wider problem; I accept that absolutely. Bill Aitken's second point was also valid. The question is how to move people on from hostel accommodation. This morning, I visited the Inglefield women's hostel in Glasgow and the Glasgow archdiocese project, which provides for damaged young people who want to move on to independent accommodation. We hope that some of the money that I outlined today will provide the kind of supportive housing that young people need as they move from a hostel setting into a fully independent tenancy. The mechanism already exists in the form of scattered flats, but we need the support services to help transfer people from a hostel setting to a fully independent tenancy.", "EditedTextHTML": "Those are two very pertinent issues. We are very concerned about what is happening in terms of waiting lists. Jackie Baillie's task force is examining that issue and I expect the Parliament to debate the conclusion of her findings next February. Rough sleeping is a microcosm of a much wider problem; I accept that absolutely.

Bill Aitken's second point was also valid. The question is how to move people on from hostel accommodation. This morning, I visited the Inglefield women's hostel in Glasgow and the Glasgow archdiocese project, which provides for damaged young people who want to move on to independent accommodation. We hope that some of the money that I outlined today will provide the kind of supportive housing that young people need as they move from a hostel setting into a fully independent tenancy. The mechanism already exists in the form of scattered flats, but we need the support services to help transfer people from a hostel setting to a fully independent tenancy.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C711073", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27026, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 6.0, "ID": 27026, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 44.0, "ContributionID": 711073, "EditedText": "I thank the member for his question, which is very reasonable in the context of what we are trying to achieve. I mentioned that, from the basis of the evaluation, it is clear that we need to talk to colleagues in the justice department and the health department who have shown a great willingness to be involved in discussions about how to tackle the issue of rough sleepers. As the member will know—although, perhaps, the rest of the chamber will not—we have been able to carry out the evaluation because of the support that we have received from the voluntary sector, which has a deeper understanding of the problem. We intend to meet the rough sleepers advisory group, which is led by the voluntary sector. We will bring to that a wider discussion of how support services are best provided. I do not want to anticipate the outcome of those discussions, but we will certainly report back on the matter.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the member for his question, which is very reasonable in the context of what we are trying to achieve. I mentioned that, from the basis of the evaluation, it is clear that we need to talk to colleagues in the justice department and the health department who have shown a great willingness to be involved in discussions about how to tackle the issue of rough sleepers.

As the member will know—although, perhaps, the rest of the chamber will not—we have been able to carry out the evaluation because of the support that we have received from the voluntary sector, which has a deeper understanding of the problem. We intend to meet the rough sleepers advisory group, which is led by the voluntary sector. We will bring to that a wider discussion of how support services are best provided. I do not want to anticipate the outcome of those discussions, but we will certainly report back on the matter.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C711075", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27026, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 6.0, "ID": 27026, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 48.0, "ContributionID": 711075, "EditedText": "I would like to draw members' attention to the fact that the money that has been spent so far—the £16 million—is beginning to make a real difference. I encourage members with an interest in this subject to visit the Cowgate day centre, which is a stone's throw from the Parliament building. I have visited the centre several times. The most interesting thing is that it provides a day centre facility that supports young and old people. In particular, it supports older people who have spent a long time on the street, are comfortable with their lifestyle, want to be in hostel accommodation in the evening, but need a day care option. That is in stark contrast to the projects that we have been funding in Glasgow, such as the archdiocese hostel that we visited today, which is a highly supportive project for a very vulnerable group of young people taking the first step back into mainstream accommodation.", "EditedTextHTML": "I would like to draw members' attention to the fact that the money that has been spent so far—the £16 million—is beginning to make a real difference.

I encourage members with an interest in this subject to visit the Cowgate day centre, which is a stone's throw from the Parliament building. I have visited the centre several times. The most interesting thing is that it provides a day centre facility that supports young and old people. In particular, it supports older people who have spent a long time on the street, are comfortable with their lifestyle, want to be in hostel accommodation

in the evening, but need a day care option. That is in stark contrast to the projects that we have been funding in Glasgow, such as the archdiocese hostel that we visited today, which is a highly supportive project for a very vulnerable group of young people taking the first step back into mainstream accommodation.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2118E157P454C711076", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27026, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 6.0, "ID": 27026, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Quinan, Mr Lloyd", "ID": 2118, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lloyd Quinan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Lloyd Quinan (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 50.0, "ContributionID": 711076, "EditedText": "I, too, would like to thank the minister for outlining where the money will go. Given the scale of the problem as revealed by the research, is the Executive's target date to end rough sleeping still 2003? More important, does the minister genuinely believe that that is a realistic target?", "EditedTextHTML": "I, too, would like to thank the minister for outlining where the money will go. Given the scale of the problem as revealed by the research, is the Executive's target date to end rough sleeping still 2003? More important, does the minister genuinely believe that that is a realistic target?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C711077", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27026, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 6.0, "ID": 27026, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 52.0, "ContributionID": 711077, "EditedText": "It is hugely ambitious, but it is worth it and we will do our best. We have not changed it.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is hugely ambitious, but it is worth it and we will do our best. We have not changed it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C711079", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27026, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 6.0, "ID": 27026, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 56.0, "ContributionID": 711079, "EditedText": "All the Lanarkshire authorities have successfully bid for rough sleepers money. One of the aspects of today's statement that has been commented on less is the commitment that every area of Scotland should benefit from the rough sleepers initiative. A number of local authorities—I think eight—have not yet benefited. We hope that they will be beneficiaries of this £20 million. Lanarkshire has already played its part.", "EditedTextHTML": "All the Lanarkshire authorities have successfully bid for rough sleepers money. One of the aspects of today's statement that has been commented on less is the commitment that every area of Scotland should benefit from the rough sleepers initiative. A number of local authorities—I think eight—have not yet benefited. We hope that they will be beneficiaries of this £20 million. Lanarkshire has already played its part.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C711084", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27026, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 6.0, "ID": 27026, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 66.0, "ContributionID": 711084, "EditedText": "I welcome the initiative and the recognition of people with mental health problems who are sleeping rough. Will the minister outline the arrangements to support that vulnerable group?", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the initiative and the recognition of people with mental health problems who are sleeping rough. Will the minister outline the arrangements to support that vulnerable group?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C711091", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27026, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 6.0, "ID": 27026, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 80.0, "ContributionID": 711091, "EditedText": "I have made it clear in the chamber on a number of occasions that the Executive is determined to ensure that homeless people are not disadvantaged in any way by moves towards community ownership. The very opposite would be the case if we were able to deal with the problem of the large number of hard-to-let houses that are, sadly, too often those that are offered to people facing homelessness.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have made it clear in the chamber on a number of occasions that the Executive is determined to ensure that homeless people are not disadvantaged in any way by moves towards community ownership. The very opposite would be the case if we were able to deal with the problem of the large number of hard-to-let houses that are, sadly, too often those that are offered to people facing homelessness.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C711093", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27026, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 6.0, "ID": 27026, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 84.0, "ContributionID": 711093, "EditedText": "The Executive has indicated that it is anxious to support a bill, introduced by Cathie Craigie, to deal with those measures. We have also said that we feel it would be appropriate for the wider issue of tenancy law as it affects homeless people to be taken forward by the expert group that Jackie Baillie is chairing. That group is due to report to Parliament in February, in advance of the introduction of the housing bill.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Executive has indicated that it is anxious to support a bill, introduced by Cathie Craigie, to deal with those measures. We have also said that we feel it would be appropriate for the wider issue of tenancy law as it affects homeless people to be taken forward by the expert group that Jackie Baillie is chairing. That group is due to report to Parliament in February, in advance of the introduction of the housing bill.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C711099", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27026, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 6.0, "ID": 27026, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 96.0, "ContributionID": 711099, "EditedText": "I think that the high-level and strategic nature of the group that we appointed today, and the Executive's participation on it, means that we can look to the group to deliver the sort of high-level intervention necessary to get the co-ordination of services that we want between mainstream budgets.", "EditedTextHTML": "I think that the high-level and strategic nature of the group that we appointed today, and the Executive's participation on it, means that we can look to the group to deliver the sort of high-level intervention necessary to get the co-ordination of services that we want between mainstream budgets.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1950E155P451C711100", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27026, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 6.0, "ID": 27026, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Campbell, Colin", "ID": 1950, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Colin Campbell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Colin Campbell (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 98.0, "ContributionID": 711100, "EditedText": "Will the minister undertake to co-operate with the Ministry of Defence to prevent ex-service personnel becoming rough sleepers, thus nipping the problem in the bud?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister undertake to co-operate with the Ministry of Defence to prevent ex-service personnel becoming rough sleepers, thus nipping the problem in the bud?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2090E83P266C711102", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27026, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 6.0, "ID": 27026, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAllion, Mr John", "ID": 2090, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dundee East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John McAllion", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr John McAllion (Dundee East) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 102.0, "ContributionID": 711102, "EditedText": "I, too, welcome the minister's statement and, in particular, the £20 million over the next two years. Can she assure us that that money will not be distributed on the basis of competitive bids, as for every winner in such a process there are more losers? No local authority will make a bid unless there is a real need in its area. Surely it is a fundamental socialist principle that proven need should be met.", "EditedTextHTML": "I, too, welcome the minister's statement and, in particular, the £20 million over the next two years. Can she assure us that that money will not be distributed on the basis of competitive bids, as for every winner in such a process there are more losers? No local authority will make a bid unless there is a real need in its area. Surely it is a fundamental socialist principle that proven need should be met.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C711106", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 112.0, "ContributionID": 711106, "EditedText": "Does not the First Minister agree that there is some evidence that the Conservatives are sweeping the country? We did very well in the European elections.", "EditedTextHTML": "Does not the First Minister agree that there is some evidence that the Conservatives are sweeping the

country? We did very well in the European elections.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C711109", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 118.0, "ContributionID": 711109, "EditedText": "If ever we needed evidence that the Conservative party was not exactly keeping up with the pace of modern developments, there we have it. I would be interested in swapping anecdotes about political archaeology, but I do not think that that would advance the cause. Instead, I will take up the challenge to give the chamber one or two excellent up-to-date quotes.", "EditedTextHTML": "If ever we needed evidence that the Conservative party was not exactly keeping up with the pace of modern developments, there we have it. I would be interested in swapping anecdotes about political archaeology, but I do not think that that would advance the cause. Instead, I will take up the challenge to give the chamber one or two excellent up-to-date quotes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1916E38P70C711110", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Ben", "ID": 1916, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ben Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ben Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 120.0, "ContributionID": 711110, "EditedText": "I hope that they are not yours.", "EditedTextHTML": "I hope that they are not yours.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C711111", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 122.0, "ContributionID": 711111, "EditedText": "This one comes from 5 October; it was said by Kenneth Clarke. I will not keep people in suspense any longer. \"Everybody knows you can't re-negotiate all those obligations which Conservative governments have entered into over the last twenty-five years without effectively bringing our membership of the EU to an end.\" John Major said:\"Those people who think we can pull out need to realise that huge swathes of people in this country depend on Europe. But we are in the European Union, we are going to stay in it and the belief that you can renegotiate is absurd— mad.\" His party, of course, is trying to renegotiate.I will finish this passage with a quote from Chris Patten, because I liked it. He is a man of some civilisation, so I am not surprised, for example, that he was particularly worried about what happened to poor old Michael Heseltine—I think it was him— at the Conservative party conference. Chris Patten said: \"I didn't think I would ever read a report about a former Deputy Prime Minister being pelted with cocktail sausages and peanuts at a Conservative Conference.\" I take the view that peanuts are probably at the quality end of what is on offer at Conservative party conference, but that is as may be. More seriously, Chris Patten said:\"We are crossing a river and it is going to be very difficult to get back from the other side.\" He is right. It would be tragic if that happened. My considered advice to David McLetchie—and to his colleagues—is that he should not get his feet wet on this occasion. Mr Hague would be well advised to pause and listen. If he is remotely interested in building a coalition or even links with the people of this country, it is time that he thought again about his position. At the other extreme is the nationalist party, to whose arguments I will, of course, give due attention. The nationalists positively insist, not on joining the euro now, because they are not in a position to do that, but on joining as soon as it possible for them to act. They have one thing in common with the Tories—they are largely uninterested in rational argument on the issue and are driven by political expediency. Yesterday, Alex Salmond—I am a great student of his activities—said to a small, but not necessarily select, gathering in Brussels that the pound was a millstone around the neck of Scottish industry. That is a strange theory, because the economy in Scotland is interconnected with and built into the United Kingdom economy. That is why Margaret Ewing, Alex Salmond and other senior nationalists—to be fair to them—have always argued that the Scottish pound would shadow the English pound while they conducted negotiations to allow them to join the euro in the unlikely circumstances of independence. That is why—as they would be the first to agree— Scotland in the euro and England out of the euro would represent an enormous economic difficulty. Indeed, it would be unthinkable. Our main market is not mainland Europe, as is often said—important though that market is—but the rest of the United Kingdom, to which we sell more of our goods and services than to the rest of the world combined. The nationalists argue—I think a little quaintly, but no doubt their position will be defended with spirit by Alex Salmond—that they are prepared to have exchange and interest rates set in Frankfurt on a European scale. However, they baulk at the same areas of economic affairs being managed from London because—as Alex Salmond puts it—that involves decisions being made in the south-east, for the south-east and by the south-east. I understand the argument; it is one that the SNP always produces. \"Ah,\" SNP members say, \"We don't need to worry about it all being done from Frankfurt. We don't need to argue about it all being done from a European perspective, because at the moment interest rates are lower in Europe than they are in Britain.\" That is because we are at different stages of the economic cycle. At the moment, interest rates in Europe are low but unemployment is high. At different points of the cycle, different measures are required. I suggest that a strong pound is often a measure of success. It is an indicator of very low inflation and of caution in case inflation starts rising again; it is an indicator of a service sector in which employment is growing and of a manufacturing sector in which employment is growing, as it is in Scotland. Those members who are looking at me sidieweys from the Scot nat benches might want to look at the Bank of Scotland economic report that appeared the other day. It recorded—to take a fairly typical example—that employment in the manufacturing sector was now rising faster than at any point since the bank started conducting its surveys. We in the United Kingdom have a very strong economy and that is important to us. Let us consider the consequences of arguing from the premise that because, at the moment, there are rather lower interest rates in Europe, we ought to be part of the euro. If there were a role reversal and if, as the cycle played itself out, we found that interest rates in Europe were higher than those in the United Kingdom—using current parallels—would the Scot nats recommend that we apply to rejoin the United Kingdom? That would seem to be the logic of their position.", "EditedTextHTML": "This one comes from 5 October; it was said by Kenneth Clarke. I will not keep people in suspense any longer.

\"Everybody knows you can't re-negotiate all those obligations which Conservative governments have entered into over the last twenty-five years without effectively bringing our membership of the EU to an end.\"

John Major said:

\"Those people who think we can pull out need to realise that huge swathes of people in this country depend on Europe. But we are in the European Union, we are going to stay in it and the belief that you can renegotiate is absurd— mad.\"

His party, of course, is trying to renegotiate.

I will finish this passage with a quote from Chris Patten, because I liked it. He is a man of some civilisation, so I am not surprised, for example, that he was particularly worried about what happened to poor old Michael Heseltine—I think it was him— at the Conservative party conference. Chris Patten said:

\"I didn't think I would ever read a report about a former Deputy Prime Minister being pelted with cocktail sausages and peanuts at a Conservative Conference.\"

I take the view that peanuts are probably at the quality end of what is on offer at Conservative party conference, but that is as may be.

More seriously, Chris Patten said:

\"We are crossing a river and it is going to be very difficult to get back from the other side.\"

He is right. It would be tragic if that happened. My considered advice to David McLetchie—and to his colleagues—is that he should not get his feet wet on this occasion. Mr Hague would be well advised to pause and listen. If he is remotely interested in building a coalition or even links with the people of this country, it is time that he thought again about his position.

At the other extreme is the nationalist party, to whose arguments I will, of course, give due attention. The nationalists positively insist, not on joining the euro now, because they are not in a position to do that, but on joining as soon as it possible for them to act. They have one thing in common with the Tories—they are largely uninterested in rational argument on the issue and are driven by political expediency.

Yesterday, Alex Salmond—I am a great student of his activities—said to a small, but not necessarily select, gathering in Brussels that the pound was a millstone around the neck of Scottish industry. That is a strange theory, because the economy in Scotland is interconnected with and built into the United Kingdom economy. That is why Margaret Ewing, Alex Salmond and other senior nationalists—to be fair to them—have always argued that the Scottish pound would shadow the English pound while they conducted negotiations to allow them to join the euro in the unlikely circumstances of independence. That is why—as they would be the first to agree—

Scotland in the euro and England out of the euro would represent an enormous economic difficulty. Indeed, it would be unthinkable.

Our main market is not mainland Europe, as is often said—important though that market is—but the rest of the United Kingdom, to which we sell more of our goods and services than to the rest of the world combined. The nationalists argue—I think a little quaintly, but no doubt their position will be defended with spirit by Alex Salmond—that they are prepared to have exchange and interest rates set in Frankfurt on a European scale. However, they baulk at the same areas of economic affairs being managed from London because—as Alex Salmond puts it—that involves decisions being made in the south-east, for the south-east and by the south-east.

I understand the argument; it is one that the SNP always produces. \"Ah,\" SNP members say, \"We don't need to worry about it all being done from Frankfurt. We don't need to argue about it all being done from a European perspective, because at the moment interest rates are lower in Europe than they are in Britain.\" That is because we are at different stages of the economic cycle. At the moment, interest rates in Europe are low but unemployment is high. At different points of the cycle, different measures are required.

I suggest that a strong pound is often a measure of success. It is an indicator of very low inflation and of caution in case inflation starts rising again; it is an indicator of a service sector in which employment is growing and of a manufacturing sector in which employment is growing, as it is in Scotland. Those members who are looking at me sidieweys from the Scot nat benches might want to look at the Bank of Scotland economic report that appeared the other day. It recorded—to take a fairly typical example—that employment in the manufacturing sector was now rising faster than at any point since the bank started conducting its surveys. We in the United Kingdom have a very strong economy and that is important to us.

Let us consider the consequences of arguing from the premise that because, at the moment, there are rather lower interest rates in Europe, we ought to be part of the euro. If there were a role reversal and if, as the cycle played itself out, we found that interest rates in Europe were higher than those in the United Kingdom—using current parallels—would the Scot nats recommend that we apply to rejoin the United Kingdom? That would seem to be the logic of their position.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C711115", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 130.0, "ContributionID": 711115, "EditedText": "Being a cautious man and not a gambler, I will check that later, but I am prepared to take that on board. The fact that at the moment we have higher interest rates than the rest of Europe reflects the parallel advantages that we have, such as lower unemployment and a very strong economy with growth. By and large, a weak pound means a weak economy. I would rather have the problems of a strong pound and a strong United Kingdom economy—in which, as I have said, we sell the majority of our goods and services. That market is to our advantage; it will increase productivity and will drive the strong economic recovery that we have experienced in this country.", "EditedTextHTML": "Being a cautious man and not a gambler, I will check that later, but I am prepared to take that on board.

The fact that at the moment we have higher interest rates than the rest of Europe reflects the parallel advantages that we have, such as lower unemployment and a very strong economy with growth. By and large, a weak pound means a weak economy. I would rather have the problems of a strong pound and a strong United Kingdom economy—in which, as I have said, we sell the majority of our goods and services. That market is to our advantage; it will increase productivity and will drive the strong economic recovery that we have experienced in this country.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1828E200P487C711118", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacDonald, Margo", "ID": 1828, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margo MacDonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Margo MacDonald (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 136.0, "ContributionID": 711118, "EditedText": "Some of us still love him! Laughter.", "EditedTextHTML": "Some of us still love him! [Laughter.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C711119", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 138.0, "ContributionID": 711119, "EditedText": "Of course, I realise that he has left a rather substantial shadow behind him. Laughter.", "EditedTextHTML": "Of course, I realise that he has left a rather substantial shadow behind him. [Laughter.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C711121", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 142.0, "ContributionID": 711121, "EditedText": "If David McLetchie is outraged, his experience is narrow. The point that I was going to make about Jim Sillars is that, when he persuaded the SNP to move from being an anti-European party to being a European party, he wrote—and Margo MacDonald will remember this—a very famous pamphlet. One of the key arguments in it was that the SNP should not bother to look at the arguments. He wrote that the SNP would be classified and damned as a separatist party for ever unless it embraced Europe as camouflage and cover to get over the disadvantage of such a classification. It had nothing to do with the arguments of the matter—it was a political necessity. I therefore think that there is still a touch of opportunism about the position of the Scot nats on Europe.", "EditedTextHTML": "If David McLetchie is outraged, his experience is narrow.

The point that I was going to make about Jim Sillars is that, when he persuaded the SNP to move from being an anti-European party to being a European party, he wrote—and Margo MacDonald will remember this—a very famous pamphlet. One of the key arguments in it was that the SNP should not bother to look at the arguments. He wrote that the SNP would be classified and damned as a separatist party for

ever unless it embraced Europe as camouflage and cover to get over the disadvantage of such a classification. It had nothing to do with the arguments of the matter—it was a political necessity. I therefore think that there is still a touch of opportunism about the position of the Scot nats on Europe.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1828E200P487C711122", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacDonald, Margo", "ID": 1828, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margo MacDonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms MacDonald: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 144.0, "ContributionID": 711122, "EditedText": "Speaking on behalf of my husband and I—Laughter.", "EditedTextHTML": "Speaking on behalf of my husband and I—[Laughter.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C711125", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 150.0, "ContributionID": 711125, "EditedText": "Oh yes I have.", "EditedTextHTML": "Oh yes I have.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1828E200P487C711126", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacDonald, Margo", "ID": 1828, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margo MacDonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms MacDonald: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 152.0, "ContributionID": 711126, "EditedText": "However, I remember campaigning with the slogan \"No voice, no entry\", which is very similar to the position of the SNP today.", "EditedTextHTML": "However, I remember campaigning with the slogan \"No voice, no entry\", which is very similar to the position of the SNP today.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C711137", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 175.0, "ContributionID": 711137, "EditedText": "These things appear in the press, on Ceefax, on the internet and in other places. Laughter. He accepted that he was not the greatest international traveller. That is certainly the case when he starts talking about developments in the European Union. I want to examine the Scottish Executive's performance in Europe, how their objectives have been either confirmed or not achieved in the past few months and the initial impression of that performance. I want to discuss the euro, a subject which—given that the Government is meant to be committed in principle to the euro—Donald Dewar mentioned only en passant. I wonder why. I want to discuss the SNP's perspective of Scotland as an independent nation in Europe. In judging the Executive's performance to date, I remind the chamber of what the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs—then shadow foreign secretary—said, at a meeting of the Scottish Grand Committee early in 1997, would be the benchmark. He said: \"Labour's plans for devolution will create a Minister for European Affairs in a Scottish Administration, set up a Scottish European office in Brussels accountable to a Scottish Parliament in Edinburgh, confer on Scottish Ministers the same observer status as that of the German Länder\".—Official Report, House of Commons, Scottish Grand Committee, 13 January 1997; c 29. I accept—and the First Minister acknowledged— that Scotland House is a welcome development. I indeed visited it yesterday. I notice that it is styled as the office of the Scottish Executive, and not, as Robin Cook said it would be, as an office \"accountable to a Scottish Parliament\".The First Minister should, given his speech last night, remember that the Executive is accountable to the Parliament, not the other way round. Nevertheless, as I said, Scotland House is a welcome development. It is one of 150 lobbying offices that the various regions—I use the First Minister's term—have in Brussels. It will do a good job for Scotland and it is better than what we had before. However, I do not think that it is adequate for Scotland's representation within Europe. I was wondering who could be the Scottish minister whom, according to Robin Cook two years ago, we were meant to have in Europe. I had recourse to the Scottish Executive website. I know that the First Minister uses it and that the Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning uses it all the time—the entire Administration must now be internet compliant. On the website, I keyed in, \"responsible minister for Europe\". I got the answer, \"various\". I was then offered the chance to search, only to be told: \"Specific information is not yet available.\"There does not seem to be a Scottish minister for Europe, as Robin Cook claimed there would be, unless we are to believe that every minister in the Scottish Executive is responsible for Europe. Incidentally, I took a printout from that website. It tells us, very helpfully: \"The information . . . is Crown Copyright\".It obviously must not fall into the wrong hands. I do not know that I should be holding the printout at all. The Scottish Executive website demonstrated the fact that there is confusion and that Labour has moved away from the idea of having a minister for Europe. What I am about to say will show why it might be a good idea to reverse that position. During the past six months, since this Parliament was established, there have been 30 meetings across Europe—formal and informal—of the Council of Ministers. The Scottish Executive, and by implication this Parliament, has been represented at one of those meetings. There have been three meetings of the Agriculture Council in Brussels and Finland since July. At a time when food and meat safety has been top of the agenda, European ministers debated those issues, but no Scottish Executive minister was present at any of those meetings. With excessive petrol and diesel prices, surely members of this Parliament know that transport and environment are key issues. Those issues were discussed at three meetings of the Transport and Environment Council in Luxembourg and in Helsinki; no Scottish Executive minister was present at any of those meetings. The claim is made—we heard it earlier today— that social inclusion and anti-poverty strategies are at the top of the Scottish Executive's agenda. When employment was being discussed at the Labour and Social Affairs Council in Luxembourg last month, no Scottish Executive minister attended the meeting. Central to European discussions over the past few months has been justice reform, which will have a direct effect on Scotland's distinctive legal system. Roseanna Cunningham will address that later in this debate, but of three Justice and Home Affairs Council meetings, the Scottish Minister for Justice has attended none. If Scotland is to play a role in Europe, even as a devolved region—to use the Scottish Executive's term—it might be helpful if we had been represented at more than one of 30 meetings during the past six months. The concordat that the Scottish Executive signed with the Foreign and Commonwealth Office states: \"In general, it is expected that consultation, the exchange of information and the conventions on notifications to EU bodies will continue in similar circumstances to the arrangements in place prior to devolution.\" They certainly have. In general, Scottish ministers were not represented at meetings of the Council of Ministers—formal and informal—before devolution and they are not represented after devolution. Playing a role in Europe is not just about having a lobbying office, or a week of festivities and lectures at Scotland House—where I was given a helpful brochure yesterday—excellent though that was, and much enjoyed as I am sure the week was by all the Scottish Executive ministers who attended. It is about turning up to the key meetings, representing Scotland, having the information and being involved in the nuts and bolts of European decision making. The Executive's record over the past six months shows that its idea of Scotland in Europe is a week in Brussels for Scottish Executive ministers, but no representation for Scotland at meeting after meeting at which issues are discussed, even issues that directly affect this Parliament's legislative programme. On the euro, I must say to the First Minister that we are involved in a joint campaign—the Scotland in Europe (part of the Britain in Europe campaign)—and, as I understand our mission statement, we have to make a positive case for the euro. We will win the argument that we are meant to be trying—collectively—to win only if we actually make that case and try not to let that case go by default.", "EditedTextHTML": "These things appear in the press, on Ceefax, on the internet and in other places. [Laughter.] He accepted that he was not the greatest international traveller. That is certainly the case when he starts talking about developments in the European Union.

I want to examine the Scottish Executive's performance in Europe, how their objectives have been either confirmed or not achieved in the past few months and the initial impression of that performance. I want to discuss the euro, a subject which—given that the Government is meant to be committed in principle to the euro—Donald Dewar mentioned only en passant. I wonder why.

I want to discuss the SNP's perspective of Scotland as an independent nation in Europe. In judging the Executive's performance to date, I remind the chamber of what the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs—then shadow foreign secretary—said, at a meeting of the Scottish Grand Committee early in 1997, would be the benchmark. He said:

\"Labour's plans for devolution will create a Minister for European Affairs in a Scottish Administration, set up a Scottish European office in Brussels accountable to a Scottish Parliament in Edinburgh, confer on Scottish Ministers the same observer status as that of the German Länder\".—[Official Report, House of Commons, Scottish Grand Committee, 13 January 1997; c 29.]

I accept—and the First Minister acknowledged— that Scotland House is a welcome development. I indeed visited it yesterday. I notice that it is styled as the office of the Scottish Executive, and not, as Robin Cook said it would be, as an office

\"accountable to a Scottish Parliament\".

The First Minister should, given his speech last night, remember that the Executive is accountable to the Parliament, not the other way round.

Nevertheless, as I said, Scotland House is a welcome development. It is one of 150 lobbying offices that the various regions—I use the First Minister's term—have in Brussels. It will do a good job for Scotland and it is better than what we had before. However, I do not think that it is adequate for Scotland's representation within Europe.

I was wondering who could be the Scottish minister whom, according to Robin Cook two years ago, we were meant to have in Europe. I had recourse to the Scottish Executive website. I know that the First Minister uses it and that the Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning uses it all the time—the entire Administration must now be internet compliant. On the website, I keyed in, \"responsible minister for Europe\". I got the answer, \"various\". I was then offered the chance to search, only to be told:

\"Specific information is not yet available.\"

There does not seem to be a Scottish minister for Europe, as Robin Cook claimed there would be, unless we are to believe that every minister in the Scottish Executive is responsible for Europe.

Incidentally, I took a printout from that website. It tells us, very helpfully:

\"The information . . . is Crown Copyright\".

It obviously must not fall into the wrong hands. I do not know that I should be holding the printout at all.

The Scottish Executive website demonstrated the fact that there is confusion and that Labour has moved away from the idea of having a minister for Europe. What I am about to say will show why it might be a good idea to reverse that position.

During the past six months, since this Parliament was established, there have been 30 meetings across Europe—formal and informal—of the Council of Ministers. The Scottish Executive, and by implication this Parliament, has been represented at one of those meetings.

There have been three meetings of the Agriculture Council in Brussels and Finland since July. At a time when food and meat safety has been top of the agenda, European ministers debated those issues, but no Scottish Executive minister was present at any of those meetings.

With excessive petrol and diesel prices, surely members of this Parliament know that transport and environment are key issues. Those issues were discussed at three meetings of the Transport and Environment Council in Luxembourg and in Helsinki; no Scottish Executive minister was present at any of those meetings.

The claim is made—we heard it earlier today— that social inclusion and anti-poverty strategies are at the top of the Scottish Executive's agenda. When employment was being discussed at the Labour and Social Affairs Council in Luxembourg last month, no Scottish Executive minister attended the meeting.

Central to European discussions over the past few months has been justice reform, which will have a direct effect on Scotland's distinctive legal system. Roseanna Cunningham will address that later in this debate, but of three Justice and Home Affairs Council meetings, the Scottish Minister for Justice has attended none.

If Scotland is to play a role in Europe, even as a devolved region—to use the Scottish Executive's term—it might be helpful if we had been represented at more than one of 30 meetings during the past six months. The concordat that the Scottish Executive signed with the Foreign and Commonwealth Office states:

\"In general, it is expected that consultation, the exchange of information and the conventions on notifications to EU bodies will continue in similar circumstances to the arrangements in place prior to devolution.\"

They certainly have. In general, Scottish ministers were not represented at meetings of the Council of Ministers—formal and informal—before devolution and they are not represented after devolution.

Playing a role in Europe is not just about having a lobbying office, or a week of festivities and lectures at Scotland House—where I was given a helpful brochure yesterday—excellent though that was, and much enjoyed as I am sure the week was by all the Scottish Executive ministers who attended. It is about turning up to the key meetings, representing Scotland, having the information and being involved in the nuts and bolts of European decision making. The Executive's record over the past six months shows that its idea of Scotland in Europe is a week in Brussels for Scottish Executive ministers, but no representation for Scotland at meeting after meeting at which issues are discussed, even

issues that directly affect this Parliament's legislative programme.

On the euro, I must say to the First Minister that we are involved in a joint campaign—the Scotland in Europe (part of the Britain in Europe campaign)—and, as I understand our mission statement, we have to make a positive case for the euro. We will win the argument that we are meant to be trying—collectively—to win only if we actually make that case and try not to let that case go by default.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C711138", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr David Davidson (North-East Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 177.0, "ContributionID": 711138, "EditedText": "Is Mr Salmond suggesting that the First Minister is not onside in the campaign to take Scotland into the euro?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is Mr Salmond suggesting that the First Minister is not onside in the campaign to take Scotland into the euro?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5764209+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C711139", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 179.0, "ContributionID": 711139, "EditedText": "I am merely reflecting that I would like to see more enthusiasm from Labour members and from ministers—not just the First Minister, but the Labour ministers at Westminster—if we are to believe that they are fully on board in the campaign. Liberal sources said only yesterday, in the London papers, that they had tried to tone down Charles Kennedy's statements on this matter. I am sure that no such thing could happen in the Scottish Executive. Laughter.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am merely reflecting that I would like to see more enthusiasm from Labour members and from ministers—not just the First Minister, but the Labour ministers at Westminster—if we are to believe that they are fully on board in the campaign. Liberal sources said only yesterday, in the London papers, that they had tried to tone down Charles Kennedy's statements on this matter. I am sure that no such thing could happen in the Scottish Executive. [Laughter.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5764209+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C711140", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 181.0, "ContributionID": 711140, "EditedText": "Will Mr Salmond give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr Salmond give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5764209+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C711143", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 187.0, "ContributionID": 711143, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5764209+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C711145", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 191.0, "ContributionID": 711145, "EditedText": "I certainly have not been employed by a bank, as Alex Salmond was a long time go. I want to be clear about what Mr Salmond is saying. He says that the pound is badly overvalued by the market. He is, by implication, saying that the proper policy to pursue at the moment would be somehow artificially to undermine the market's confidence in the pound and drive it down. To what level would he drive it down and how would he propose to do that?", "EditedTextHTML": "I certainly have not been employed by a bank, as Alex Salmond was a long time go. I want to be clear about what Mr Salmond is saying. He says that the pound is badly overvalued by the market. He is, by implication, saying that the proper policy to pursue at the moment would be somehow artificially to undermine the market's confidence in the pound and drive it down. To what level would he drive it down and how would he propose to do that?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5764209+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C711149", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 199.0, "ContributionID": 711149, "EditedText": "The First Minister may shake his head—he should, perhaps, talk to the Deputy First Minister, as that case is made daily from the Liberal benches in the House of Commons in London. Is he saying that there is some sort of split over the economic policy of the Scottish Executive? Interest rates should be brought down to European levels; sterling will then fall to a competitive level. The First Minister says that the market has determined the value of sterling. I do not know whether he has had time to look at the statement that the Chancellor of the Exchequer made yesterday. The chancellor anticipates a £12 billion trade deficit in the current account of the balance of payments every year for the next four years. That is a substantial trade and balance of payments deficit and yet sterling remains at a very high level. What does that tell us, if not that capital movement, not the movement of underlying trade and our competitive position, determines the value of sterling? Scotland exports far more of its product to Europe than to the UK and has 60 per cent higher productivity in manufacturing exports than the rest of the UK. The argument for being in the euro is that it will get us out of the position in which a capital denominated over-valued currency is doing severe damage to the Scottish economy, despite the denials of the First Minister and the minister for industry.", "EditedTextHTML": "The First Minister may shake his head—he should, perhaps, talk to the Deputy First Minister, as that case is made daily from the Liberal benches in the House of Commons in London. Is he saying that there is some sort of split over the economic policy of the Scottish Executive? Interest rates should be brought down to European levels; sterling will then fall to a competitive level.

The First Minister says that the market has determined the value of sterling. I do not know whether he has had time to look at the statement that the Chancellor of the Exchequer made yesterday. The chancellor anticipates a £12 billion trade deficit in the current account of the balance of payments every year for the next four years. That is a substantial trade and balance of payments deficit and yet sterling remains at a very high level. What does that tell us, if not that capital movement, not the movement of underlying trade and our competitive position, determines the value of sterling?

Scotland exports far more of its product to Europe than to the UK and has 60 per cent higher productivity in manufacturing exports than the rest of the UK. The argument for being in the euro is that it will get us out of the position in which a

capital denominated over-valued currency is doing severe damage to the Scottish economy, despite the denials of the First Minister and the minister for industry.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5764209+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C711151", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 203.0, "ContributionID": 711151, "EditedText": "Mr Salmond, I must ask you to wind up now, please.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Salmond, I must ask you to wind up now, please.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5764209+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C711156", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 214.0, "ContributionID": 711156, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5764209+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C711157", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 216.0, "ContributionID": 711157, "EditedText": "Mr Lyon is first, sorry.The message from the electorate to Britain's politicians was clear: they should stop undermining and compromising our national sovereignty.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Lyon is first, sorry.

The message from the electorate to Britain's politicians was clear: they should stop undermining and compromising our national sovereignty.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5764209+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C711158", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 218.0, "ContributionID": 711158, "EditedText": "Does David McLetchie agree with Douglas Hurd, who stated on 13 October that Conservative policy in Europe is increasingly based on caricature, not reality?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does David McLetchie agree with Douglas Hurd, who stated on 13 October that Conservative policy in Europe is increasingly based on caricature, not reality?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5764209+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C711159", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 220.0, "ContributionID": 711159, "EditedText": "I do not agree with Mr Hurd, who is no longer a member of the parliamentary Conservative party and whose opinion is out of step with the mainstream opinion of the party.", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not agree with Mr Hurd, who is no longer a member of the parliamentary Conservative party and whose opinion is out of step with the mainstream opinion of the party.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5764209+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C711167", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 236.0, "ContributionID": 711167, "EditedText": "I am sorry, but that is a further misrepresentation of the party's position. We are not renegotiating the fundamentals of the commitments that we have entered into with the European Union. That is the party's position. The flexibility option relates to new treaty obligations and new common policies, on which we genuinely believe—as in matters that relate to the common fisheries policy—that we need a great deal more flexibility than is currently provided in the European Union framework. Mr Keith Raffan (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)rose—", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry, but that is a further misrepresentation of the party's position. We are not renegotiating the fundamentals of the commitments that we have entered into with the European Union. That is the party's position. The flexibility option relates to new treaty obligations and new common policies, on which we genuinely believe—as in matters that relate to the common fisheries policy—that we need a great deal more flexibility than is currently provided in the European Union framework.

Mr Keith Raffan (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)

rose—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5764209+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1773E197P503C711067", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27026, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 6.0, "ID": 27026, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hyslop, Fiona", "ID": 1773, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona Hyslop", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona Hyslop: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 32.0, "ContributionID": 711067, "EditedText": "I thank the minister for her statement. I am sure that she agrees that 11,000 rough sleepers are Scotland's scandal. The minister confirmed that the £20 million is a re-release of announcements that have been made previously. Does she agree that she is in danger of recycling cash announcements? Furthermore, is she not in danger of recycling homeless people back on to the streets unless money is put into housing? Only this morning, the Social Inclusion, Housing and Voluntary Sector Committee was told by housing professionals that the real problem of homelessness is found in the lack of affordable, accessible housing. The rough sleepers initiative advisory group—the minister's own group—said that \"the Rough Sleepers Initiative will quickly silt up if supported move on accommodation is not made available.\" Can the minister offer concrete assurances that those who are taken off the streets are not simply recycled back on to the streets later through a lack of resources at the next phase? Does the minister agree that councils need cash for housing, otherwise we will have not only recycled announcements but will be in danger of recycling our young people back on to the streets?", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the minister for her statement. I am sure that she agrees that 11,000 rough sleepers are Scotland's scandal.

The minister confirmed that the £20 million is a re-release of announcements that have been made previously. Does she agree that she is in danger of recycling cash announcements? Furthermore, is she not in danger of recycling homeless people back on to the streets unless money is put into housing?

Only this morning, the Social Inclusion, Housing and Voluntary Sector Committee was told by housing professionals that the real problem of homelessness is found in the lack of affordable, accessible housing. The rough sleepers initiative advisory group—the minister's own group—said that

\"the Rough Sleepers Initiative will quickly silt up if supported move on accommodation is not made available.\"

Can the minister offer concrete assurances that those who are taken off the streets are not simply recycled back on to the streets later through a lack of resources at the next phase?

Does the minister agree that councils need cash for housing, otherwise we will have not only recycled announcements but will be in danger of recycling our young people back on to the streets?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:01:13.4086808+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1773E197P503C711056", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27026, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 6.0, "ID": 27026, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hyslop, Fiona", "ID": 1773, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona Hyslop", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona Hyslop (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 9.0, "ContributionID": 711056, "EditedText": "On a point of order. Following the point of order last week about Executive ministers pre-announcing statements that are coming to the chamber, the Minister for Communities announced a £20 million package for homelessness on the radio this morning. Will you give an opinion on whether that was appropriate?", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. Following the point of order last week about Executive ministers pre-announcing statements that are coming to the chamber, the Minister for Communities announced a £20 million package for homelessness on the radio this morning. Will you give an opinion on whether that was appropriate?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:01:00.1970678+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C711312", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Borders Rail Link", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27029, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 475.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 475.0, "ID": 27029, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 539.0, "ContributionID": 711312, "EditedText": "I will try to be brief. I thank Christine Grahame, who has taken an interest in reopening the Borders railway, for lodging the motion and for enabling us to have an all-party discussion on the issue. I start by agreeing with the sentiments of the motion about the importance of railway lines to the economic and social well-being of any region. In that respect, the Borders stands out. The Scottish Executive's transport policy shares—indeed, has at its core—that general premise. That premise underpins recent announcements such as the outcome of the strategic roads review and the latest round of public transport fund awards, which amount to £26 million. We know that good transport links are essential. That is as true for urban areas as it is for remote rural locations. The Borders railway feasibility study is part of an overall approach to improving rural transport. I do not want to look just at rail; I want to reflect on how we can improve choice for people in the Borders. The points were well made about car dependency, infrequent services and the poor quality of public transport, which are problems for the elderly and the unemployed in particular. I assure members that our response to those challenges has been to explore and support a number of practical steps, including innovative transport projects, such as voluntary or community transport initiatives through the rural transport fund and the public transport fund. The development of a national transport timetable will mean that people will know what choices are available and that we can strengthen existing public transport opportunities. A working party with members from Scottish Borders Council, Scottish Borders Enterprise and the tourist board has done much work to tackle rural isolation in the Borders and to look at economic regeneration there—the investment made through that is important. Recent developments have included the information and communications technology link to the Heriot-Watt campus at Galashiels, the links with Locate in Scotland to promote the area to inward investors and the new long-term jobs in Selkirk. The work that is being done is critical. It has led us to have the feasibility study to examine the Borders railway line. It is important to view the feasibility study as a positive development in itself. I assure members—", "EditedTextHTML": "I will try to be brief. I thank Christine Grahame, who has taken an interest in reopening the Borders railway, for lodging the motion and for enabling us to have an all-party discussion on the issue.

I start by agreeing with the sentiments of the motion about the importance of railway lines to the economic and social well-being of any region. In that respect, the Borders stands out. The Scottish Executive's transport policy shares—indeed, has at its core—that general premise.

That premise underpins recent announcements such as the outcome of the strategic roads review and the latest round of public transport fund awards, which amount to £26 million. We know that good transport links are essential. That is as true for urban areas as it is for remote rural locations. The Borders railway feasibility study is part of an overall approach to improving rural transport. I do not want to look just at rail; I want to reflect on how we can improve choice for people in the Borders. The points were well made about car dependency, infrequent services and the poor quality of public transport, which are problems for the elderly and the unemployed in particular.

I assure members that our response to those challenges has been to explore and support a number of practical steps, including innovative transport projects, such as voluntary or community transport initiatives through the rural transport fund and the public transport fund. The development of a national transport timetable will mean that people will know what choices are available and that we can strengthen existing public transport opportunities.

A working party with members from Scottish Borders Council, Scottish Borders Enterprise and the tourist board has done much work to tackle rural isolation in the Borders and to look at economic regeneration there—the investment made through that is important.

Recent developments have included the information and communications technology link to the Heriot-Watt campus at Galashiels, the links with Locate in Scotland to promote the area to inward investors and the new long-term jobs in Selkirk. The work that is being done is critical. It has led us to have the feasibility study to examine the Borders railway line. It is important to view the feasibility study as a positive development in itself. I assure members—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:14.3101891+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C711317", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Borders Rail Link", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27029, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 475.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 475.0, "ID": 27029, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 549.0, "ContributionID": 711317, "EditedText": "There is general agreement that we need to consider a direct rail connection, inward investment and access to employment and learning opportunities, as Karen Gillon said. We all know that the Beeching cuts were a tragedy but it is in that context that we must consider the feasibility of reinstating part, or all, of the Waverley line. I will not make showy announcements today, but I give a commitment that the great interest that Mike Russell, Euan Robson and Ian Jenkins said existed in the Borders will be taken into account when the results of the feasibility study are considered. Today is not the day to make an announcement, as we have not received the study, but I assure members that we will consider the study seriously. A great deal of work has been done by Borders Transport Futures Ltd and the Campaign for Borders Rail. I welcome that work and thank those organisations for, in effect, putting this item on our agenda, which has led to this debate. Our railway industry is different from the one that we had 30 years ago, but that gives us opportunities. The UK Government inherited a privatised and fragmented rail network, but the demand for rail travel is growing dramatically. That does not make it easier to examine the industry, nor does it solve our problems, but it does create a new climate. We have the opportunity to create an integrated transport system, and that will come from the UK Railways Bill and from our work in this Parliament. The devolution settlement gives us a role in promoting the railway industry. Our funds are not inelastic, as members will know, but we already support passenger rail in Scotland with £208 million a year. I want to examine how we can make that support more effective. The points made by David Mundell are precisely the ones that I am looking at—how can we expand our rail services as well as look to new rail services and investments? I know that members are coming to me with demands for new rail investment. I welcome that. We must examine our priorities. We know that public support for rail investment is critical. The economic and value-for-money arguments alone mean that we need to invest the money. That is a challenge because we do not have an unlimited budget. I want our railway network to grow. We need to demonstrate value for money and we must look at the priorities in the context of an integrated transport system, reduction of congestion, improvement of access and of inclusion and social, economic and environmental gains. Those are the criteria against which we must measure the expansion of new railway services, and they will apply to all proposals in Scotland, such as the Borders railway proposal and the feasibility study. I am sure that that study will take us further down the road of looking at the options and the finances. The study will not make the decision, but it will be important in giving us more information to think about options. The final decision will rest with me, in partnership with the various public and private bodies that members have mentioned, and it will have to be set against the other important and justifiable claims on our tight resources. However, as Christine Grahame observed in her introduction, home rule enables us to focus on transport issues. The choices are not easy, but our feasibility study will allow us to consider the options that are available. That is a great step forward. If there is a message to take back to the people in the Borders, it is that we will give the study careful consideration. I thank members for staying behind to take part in this debate. It is an important subject, and one to which I hope we shall return.", "EditedTextHTML": "There is general agreement that we need to consider a direct rail connection, inward investment and access to employment and learning opportunities, as Karen Gillon said.

We all know that the Beeching cuts were a tragedy but it is in that context that we must consider the feasibility of reinstating part, or all, of the Waverley line. I will not make showy announcements today, but I give a commitment that the great interest that Mike Russell, Euan Robson and Ian Jenkins said existed in the Borders will be taken into account when the results of the feasibility study are considered. Today is not the day to make an announcement, as we have not received the study, but I assure members that we will consider the study seriously.

A great deal of work has been done by Borders Transport Futures Ltd and the Campaign for Borders Rail. I welcome that work and thank those organisations for, in effect, putting this item on our agenda, which has led to this debate.

Our railway industry is different from the one that we had 30 years ago, but that gives us opportunities. The UK Government inherited a privatised and fragmented rail network, but the demand for rail travel is growing dramatically. That does not make it easier to examine the industry, nor does it solve our problems, but it does create a new climate. We have the opportunity to create an integrated transport system, and that will come from the UK Railways Bill and from our work in this Parliament.

The devolution settlement gives us a role in promoting the railway industry. Our funds are not inelastic, as members will know, but we already support passenger rail in Scotland with £208 million a year. I want to examine how we can make that support more effective. The points made by David Mundell are precisely the ones that I am looking at—how can we expand our rail services as well as look to new rail services and investments?

I know that members are coming to me with demands for new rail investment. I welcome that. We must examine our priorities. We know that public support for rail investment is critical. The economic and value-for-money arguments alone mean that we need to invest the money. That is a challenge because we do not have an unlimited budget.

I want our railway network to grow. We need to demonstrate value for money and we must look at the priorities in the context of an integrated transport system, reduction of congestion, improvement of access and of inclusion and social, economic and environmental gains. Those are the criteria against which we must measure the expansion of new railway services, and they will apply to all proposals in Scotland, such as the Borders railway proposal and the feasibility study.

I am sure that that study will take us further down the road of looking at the options and the finances. The study will not make the decision, but it will be important in giving us more information to think about options. The final decision will rest with me, in partnership with the various public and private bodies that members have mentioned, and it will have to be set against the other important and justifiable claims on our tight resources.

However, as Christine Grahame observed in her introduction, home rule enables us to focus on transport issues. The choices are not easy, but our feasibility study will allow us to consider the options that are available. That is a great step forward. If there is a message to take back to the people in the Borders, it is that we will give the study careful consideration.

I thank members for staying behind to take part in this debate. It is an important subject, and one to which I hope we shall return.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:14.3101891+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1857E136P222C711086", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27026, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 6.0, "ID": 27026, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeill, Pauline", "ID": 1857, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Kelvin" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Pauline McNeill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Pauline McNeill (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 70.0, "ContributionID": 711086, "EditedText": "According to Strathclyde police, about 1,500 homeless people are put out of hostels and on to the streets of Glasgow city centre from 9 am to 9 pm, which makes them especially vulnerable. Will the minister look into that matter, especially as she has announced today that a high-level team will examine matters in Glasgow?", "EditedTextHTML": "According to Strathclyde police, about 1,500 homeless people are put out of hostels and on to the streets of Glasgow city centre from 9 am to 9 pm, which makes them especially vulnerable. Will the minister look into that matter, especially as she has announced today that a high-level team will examine matters in Glasgow?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:21:23.9742649+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C711131", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 10 Nov 1999", "ID": 4189 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-10T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Union", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27027, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 108.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 108.0, "ID": 27027, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 162.0, "ContributionID": 711131, "EditedText": "The First Minister has made great play of the UK's negotiating success in Europe. Will he give some guidance on UK negotiations about support to businesses that are interested in exporting to European Union countries? For example, because of the UK's great success, a language training project has delivered resources to the UK economy in Luton, north London, Sheffield and Wolverhampton. What success have the Executive or UK Government had in delivering such exporting support to companies in Scotland?", "EditedTextHTML": "The First Minister has made great play of the UK's negotiating success in Europe. Will he give some guidance on UK negotiations about support to businesses that are interested in exporting to European Union countries? For example, because of the UK's great success, a language training project has delivered resources to the UK economy in Luton, north London, Sheffield and Wolverhampton. What success have the Executive or UK Government had in delivering such exporting support to companies in Scotland?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:21:23.9742649+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C710691", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Landfill Sites", "QuestionHeadingID": 26994, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 428.0, "DisplayOrder": 428.0, "ID": 26994, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment (Sarah Boyack): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 431.0, "ContributionID": 710691, "EditedText": "There are no plans at present to review the guidance.", "EditedTextHTML": "There are no plans at present to review the guidance.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:08.9207112+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C710751", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Waste Recycling", "QuestionHeadingID": 27008, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 560.0, "DisplayOrder": 560.0, "ID": 27008, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 565.0, "ContributionID": 710751, "EditedText": "The scheme that we are working on at the moment is the national waste strategy that SEPA will publish before the end of the year. It will look primarily at the range of disposal and recycling options that will be available to the people of Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "The scheme that we are working on at the moment is the national waste strategy that SEPA will publish before the end of the year. It will look primarily at the range of disposal and recycling options that will be available to the people of Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:08.9207112+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C710816", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment (Sarah Boyack): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 707.0, "ContributionID": 710816, "EditedText": "I welcome the opportunity today to report on the occasion of the publication of the reports on the strategic roads review. Trunk roads make an important contribution to our integrated and sustainable transport strategy. They are a vital part of our transport network, but our integrated transport strategy is about much more than roads. Thirty-two projects are benefiting from the Executive's public transport fund, at a cost of £55 million. Those include bus priority and park-and-ride schemes, rail improvements combined with park-and-ride, improved rail and bus stations, better provision for cyclists and pedestrians and airfield and ferry improvements. Rail could make a substantially greater contribution in both the passenger and freight markets. We are supporting that development through our freight facilities grants. Four recent awards, totalling almost £14 million, will result in more than 100,000 lorry journeys a year being taken off our roads, with the goods being transported by rail. The trunk road network is a major national asset, built up on the basis of decades of public investment. The former Conservative Government was failing to protect that asset through its decisions on budgets and priorities. It irresponsibly built up major expectations of new schemes, but at the same time raided the maintenance programme. Apart from being wholly irresponsible, that could only lead to bigger bills in the longer term. We have begun to tackle that inheritance, and have increased spending on repair and maintenance substantially. This year such spending is a third more than the figure inherited from the former Conservative Government, and further increases are planned for the next two years. We can already see an impact on the condition of the network, for example, on the Edinburgh city bypass, and on the A90. A key task is to increase effective capacity by making better use of the existing network, rather than carrying out widespread new building. That means better driver information; improving flows at key pressure points; promoting integrated approaches such as park-and-ride initiatives; and considering systems to give priority on the network to particular types of vehicles such as buses and heavy goods vehicles. Route action plans allow us to introduce measures to address congestion problems or accident black spots. Increasingly, route action plans will be used to determine investment priorities across the network and will examine the extent to which public transport as well as road improvements can meet transport needs. To illustrate that approach, I am pleased to confirm today additional junctions at Inchmichael and Inchture on the A90 between Perth and Dundee and two new junctions at Forfar. Those grade- separated junctions will proceed to construction as soon as is practicable, and will bring real safety benefits to local people. Road safety is one of our key priorities. We will continue to place emphasis on accident investigation and prevention and on route accident reduction plans, as major safety benefits can often be secured through relatively inexpensive, common-sense improvements. We are working with the UK Government on a review of speed policy and expect to publish later this year new targets for the reduction of road casualties in the period to 2010. We are committed to protecting the environment through sustainable transport policies. That is why we need traffic management to protect communities from the effects of heavy through traffic and the pollution that is caused by stop-go driving conditions. It is why we need to improve the appearances of roads and bridges and to minimise or avoid altogether any harmful impacts of maintenance activity. That is also why we must ensure that environmental considerations are at the heart of the design process and take mitigating measures to minimise or avoid altogether any harmful impacts arising from construction. Environmental considerations are why I am ruling out the Kelvin valley for any replacement of the A80. That was a difficult decision, but on the grounds of cost and environmental damage, I believe that it is right. Our integrated transport strategy is about much more than building new roads. However, in certain circumstances, major new road construction is necessary. That is why we have built the A75 the Glen and the A828 Creagan bridge, and why we will progress further schemes. The roads review took as its starting point the 15 inherited major trunk road proposals and two non- trunk road schemes: the A8000 and M74 northern extension. Those 17 schemes have a total capital cost in excess of £800 million. We have scrutinised those schemes rigorouslyagainst the criteria of economy, safety, environmental impact, accessibility and integration. We did that through the appraisal method that was developed for the review. Work began under the Scottish Office and the method was the subject of public consultation last year. A number of significant changes have been introduced as a result of the many useful responses that were received. The report that I am publishing today contains full details of the appraisal method and of the results for each scheme that was reviewed. The analysis is comprehensive and thorough but stops short of addressing fully a major criticism that was levelled at the appraisal method during consultation. There was criticism that the method did not take a wider approach to allow trunk road proposals to be compared with other potential solutions such as public transport. The Scottish Executive is developing a new appraisal framework and, although some further effort is required to complete that work, I have concluded that we must apply that wider approach before building substantial new roads. The review included the M8 completion, the M80 from Stepps to Haggs and the M74 northern extension to the Kingston bridge. Those substantial proposals have a combined cost of well over £400 million. Our analysis shows that they would carry very considerable volumes of commuting traffic, which is a sector of the travel market in which public transport should be able to make a much more significant contribution. I am therefore commissioning a multi-modal study of the transport corridors that are covered by the M8 and M80. I will ensure that relevant local authorities, transport operators, the business community and others with an interest are given a full opportunity to participate. I shall appoint an independent panel of academics to oversee that work. Consistent with the approach that I announced on 23 June, the proposed M74 northern extension will be promoted by Glasgow City Council and South Lanarkshire Council and justified on the basis of the contribution it can make to the local transport strategies of those authorities. I will be urging the councils to address environmental concerns about the proposal and to undertake a multi-modal study to identify whether there are options to reduce the scale of the road. I would also wish them to involve neighbouring authorities and those with an interest in this scheme in the work.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the opportunity today to report on the occasion of the publication of the reports on the strategic roads review.

Trunk roads make an important contribution to our integrated and sustainable transport strategy. They are a vital part of our transport network, but our integrated transport strategy is about much more than roads. Thirty-two projects are benefiting from the Executive's public transport fund, at a cost of £55 million. Those include bus priority and park-and-ride schemes, rail improvements combined with park-and-ride, improved rail and bus stations, better provision for cyclists and pedestrians and airfield and ferry improvements. Rail could make a substantially greater contribution in both the passenger and freight markets. We are supporting that development through our freight facilities grants. Four recent awards, totalling almost £14 million, will result in more than 100,000 lorry journeys a year being taken off our roads, with the goods being transported by rail.

The trunk road network is a major national asset, built up on the basis of decades of public investment. The former Conservative Government was failing to protect that asset through its decisions on budgets and priorities. It irresponsibly built up major expectations of new schemes, but at the same time raided the maintenance programme. Apart from being wholly irresponsible, that could only lead to bigger bills in the longer term.

We have begun to tackle that inheritance, and have increased spending on repair and maintenance substantially. This year such spending is a third more than the figure inherited from the former Conservative Government, and further increases are planned for the next two years. We can already see an impact on the condition of the network, for example, on the Edinburgh city bypass, and on the A90.

A key task is to increase effective capacity by making better use of the existing network, rather than carrying out widespread new building. That means better driver information; improving flows at key pressure points; promoting integrated approaches such as park-and-ride initiatives; and considering systems to give priority on the network to particular types of vehicles such as buses and heavy goods vehicles.

Route action plans allow us to introduce measures to address congestion problems or accident black spots. Increasingly, route action plans will be used to determine investment priorities across the network and will examine the extent to which public transport as well as road improvements can meet transport needs. To illustrate that approach, I am pleased to confirm today additional junctions at Inchmichael and Inchture on the A90 between Perth and Dundee and two new junctions at Forfar. Those grade- separated junctions will proceed to construction as soon as is practicable, and will bring real safety benefits to local people.

Road safety is one of our key priorities. We will continue to place emphasis on accident investigation and prevention and on route accident reduction plans, as major safety benefits can often be secured through relatively inexpensive, common-sense improvements.

We are working with the UK Government on a review of speed policy and expect to publish later this year new targets for the reduction of road casualties in the period to 2010.

We are committed to protecting the environment through sustainable transport policies. That is why we need traffic management to protect communities from the effects of heavy through traffic and the pollution that is caused by stop-go driving conditions. It is why we need to improve the appearances of roads and bridges and to minimise or avoid altogether any harmful impacts of maintenance activity.

That is also why we must ensure that environmental considerations are at the heart of the design process and take mitigating measures to minimise or avoid altogether any harmful impacts arising from construction. Environmental considerations are why I am ruling out the Kelvin valley for any replacement of the A80. That was a difficult decision, but on the grounds of cost and environmental damage, I believe that it is right.

Our integrated transport strategy is about much more than building new roads. However, in certain circumstances, major new road construction is necessary. That is why we have built the A75 the Glen and the A828 Creagan bridge, and why we will progress further schemes.

The roads review took as its starting point the 15 inherited major trunk road proposals and two non- trunk road schemes: the A8000 and M74 northern extension. Those 17 schemes have a total capital cost in excess of £800 million.

We have scrutinised those schemes rigorously

against the criteria of economy, safety, environmental impact, accessibility and integration. We did that through the appraisal method that was developed for the review. Work began under the Scottish Office and the method was the subject of public consultation last year. A number of significant changes have been introduced as a result of the many useful responses that were received.

The report that I am publishing today contains full details of the appraisal method and of the results for each scheme that was reviewed. The analysis is comprehensive and thorough but stops short of addressing fully a major criticism that was levelled at the appraisal method during consultation. There was criticism that the method did not take a wider approach to allow trunk road proposals to be compared with other potential solutions such as public transport. The Scottish Executive is developing a new appraisal framework and, although some further effort is required to complete that work, I have concluded that we must apply that wider approach before building substantial new roads.

The review included the M8 completion, the M80 from Stepps to Haggs and the M74 northern extension to the Kingston bridge. Those substantial proposals have a combined cost of well over £400 million. Our analysis shows that they would carry very considerable volumes of commuting traffic, which is a sector of the travel market in which public transport should be able to make a much more significant contribution. I am therefore commissioning a multi-modal study of the transport corridors that are covered by the M8 and M80. I will ensure that relevant local authorities, transport operators, the business community and others with an interest are given a full opportunity to participate. I shall appoint an independent panel of academics to oversee that work.

Consistent with the approach that I announced on 23 June, the proposed M74 northern extension will be promoted by Glasgow City Council and South Lanarkshire Council and justified on the basis of the contribution it can make to the local transport strategies of those authorities.

I will be urging the councils to address environmental concerns about the proposal and to undertake a multi-modal study to identify whether there are options to reduce the scale of the road. I would also wish them to involve neighbouring authorities and those with an interest in this scheme in the work.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:08.9207112+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C710818", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 711.0, "ContributionID": 710818, "EditedText": "No, thank you.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, thank you.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:08.9207112+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C710861", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 797.0, "ContributionID": 710861, "EditedText": "We are taking the project forward in the next financial year and will consider the best options for progress.", "EditedTextHTML": "We are taking the project forward in the next financial year and will consider the best options for progress.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:08.9207112+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C710866", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 807.0, "ContributionID": 710866, "EditedText": "That section will cost around £12 million. I cannot say when it will be completed, but it will be started next year. We intend to make early progress on that route.", "EditedTextHTML": "That section will cost around £12 million. I cannot say when it will be completed, but it will be started next year. We intend to make early progress on that route.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:08.9207112+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1773E197P503C710731", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Glasgow Council Housing", "QuestionHeadingID": 27005, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 521.0, "DisplayOrder": 521.0, "ID": 27005, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hyslop, Fiona", "ID": 1773, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona Hyslop", "SpeakerDisplayName": "14. Fiona Hyslop (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 522.0, "ContributionID": 710731, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will outline the role, remit and objectives of the new steering group set up to oversee the next phases of work on stock transfer of Glasgow council housing. (S1O-547)", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will outline the role, remit and objectives of the new steering group set up to oversee the next phases of work on stock transfer of Glasgow council housing. (S1O-547)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:00:47.4219837+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1860E111P160C710862", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Grant, Rhoda", "ID": 1860, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Rhoda Grant", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Rhoda Grant (Highlands and Islands) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 799.0, "ContributionID": 710862, "EditedText": "Does the minister remain open to the possibility of progress on the A9 north of Helmsdale, the A82 from Glencoe to Inverness and the A96 Inverness to Aberdeen road, all of which are in need of repair? Is she prepared to hear representations from me and from councils in the Highlands on the priorities among those schemes?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the minister remain open to the possibility of progress on the A9 north of Helmsdale, the A82 from Glencoe to Inverness and the A96 Inverness to Aberdeen road, all of which are in need of repair? Is she prepared to hear representations from me and from councils in the Highlands on the priorities among those schemes?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:00:47.4376059+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C710884", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 843.0, "ContributionID": 710884, "EditedText": "That is correct. The scheme that we have selected has to be given further consideration and approval through the planning process. We will commence that process swiftly.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is correct. The scheme that we have selected has to be given further consideration and approval through the planning process. We will commence that process swiftly.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:14.3101891+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C710886", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 847.0, "ContributionID": 710886, "EditedText": "I understand that some work on that has already been carried out. I am concerned that we examine the full range of options. Our priority will be consideration of the choices for the optimum improvement of transport in that area.", "EditedTextHTML": "I understand that some work on that has already been carried out. I am concerned that we examine the full range of options. Our priority will be consideration of the choices for the optimum improvement of transport in that area.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:14.3101891+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C710913", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 903.0, "ContributionID": 710913, "EditedText": "I made it clear in my statement that it would be a matter for the local authorities in the area to progress. The issues that Mr Tosh has raised concern potential funding routes that would be available—and there are several potential funding routes. I am asking the authorities to consider them, to identify the right stretch of road and to develop that road. That is a realistic proposition.", "EditedTextHTML": "I made it clear in my statement that it would be a matter for the local authorities in the area to progress. The issues that Mr Tosh has raised concern potential funding routes that would be available—and there are several potential funding routes. I am asking the authorities to consider them, to identify the right stretch of road and to develop that road. That is a realistic proposition.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:14.3101891+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C710969", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1025.0, "ContributionID": 710969, "EditedText": "I see—John Young was the official wind-up. Laughter. I had not realised that. We have had a rather curious set of Opposition speakers. On the one hand, Mr MacAskill would construct all the roads everywhere; he would add a few that are not even on the list. On the other, the Tories have said that they would have built all the roads, if we had not voted them out of office a couple of years ago. The truth is that the Tories did not have the money to build all those roads in their budget, and neither would the SNP have the money to build those roads in its budget. We know that from the SNP's budget in the run- up to the election. We also know that some of the money in the SNP's budget would have come from the fuel duty escalator. In its budget for independence, which was produced reluctantly in the last stages of the general election campaign, the SNP allocated fuel duty without any reduction. On the SNP's budget figures as recently as April 1999, it would have kept the fuel duty at its current level. Given the SNP's budget policy, we are rather fed up with the SNP complaints. We now find out that roads will not be paid for from the fuel duty escalator. I heard Mr Salmond saying on the radio the other morning that the SNP would pay for it from income-based taxation. That is an interesting development. Just over a year ago, Alasdair Morgan said that the SNP would use the penny for Scotland to invest in roads. Within 24 hours that policy was abolished, but now the SNP has returned to income tax as a way of raising investment for roads. Let us look at the budget and the amount of money that we need to spend on roads. Mr MacAskill's programme aspires to spend £800 million on road construction. Where will that money come from? We will need not just one penny for Scotland, but rather a lot of pennies. SNP members' comments today completely miss the point.", "EditedTextHTML": "I see—John Young was the official wind-up. [Laughter.] I had not realised that.

We have had a rather curious set of Opposition speakers. On the one hand, Mr MacAskill would construct all the roads everywhere; he would add a few that are not even on the list. On the other, the Tories have said that they would have built all the roads, if we had not voted them out of office a couple of years ago. The truth is that the Tories did not have the money to build all those roads in their budget, and neither would the SNP have the money to build those roads in its budget.

We know that from the SNP's budget in the run- up to the election. We also know that some of the money in the SNP's budget would have come from the fuel duty escalator. In its budget for independence, which was produced reluctantly in the last stages of the general election campaign, the SNP allocated fuel duty without any reduction. On the SNP's budget figures as recently as April 1999, it would have kept the fuel duty at its current level. Given the SNP's budget policy, we are rather fed up with the SNP complaints.

We now find out that roads will not be paid for from the fuel duty escalator. I heard Mr Salmond saying on the radio the other morning that the SNP would pay for it from income-based taxation. That is an interesting development. Just over a year ago, Alasdair Morgan said that the SNP would use the penny for Scotland to invest in roads. Within 24 hours that policy was abolished, but now the SNP has returned to income tax as a way of raising investment for roads.

Let us look at the budget and the amount of money that we need to spend on roads. Mr MacAskill's programme aspires to spend £800 million on road construction. Where will that money come from? We will need not just one penny for Scotland, but rather a lot of pennies. SNP members' comments today completely miss the point.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:14.3101891+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C710975", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1037.0, "ContributionID": 710975, "EditedText": "No, I will not, Mr Tosh.The programme is costed. It will be implemented using the money that is currently in our budget and the money that we have programmed over the next three years. The comments that members have made acknowledge the importance of integration. It was even acknowledged by the SNP members, which came as a surprise, because they have said that they would spend £800 million on roads and on a whole wish list of other transport issues. We have to prioritise; we are a Government with a budget. Mr Nick Johnston said:\"Nobody wants to see diversions from health and education\". That is absolutely true. We need to work within the existing budget and our challenge is to prioritise effectively. That is what we have done. We also want to make the most effective use of our existing infrastructure. That is why we think that it is important to take an appropriate amount of freight off the roads. To answer Mr Young's question, it is not about getting all freight off roads. Last week, I spoke to the Road Haulage Association, to say how important we see its work as part of an integrated transport strategy. The whole purpose of the strategic roads review is to achieve the right balance.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I will not, Mr Tosh.

The programme is costed. It will be implemented using the money that is currently in our budget and the money that we have programmed over the next three years.

The comments that members have made acknowledge the importance of integration. It was even acknowledged by the SNP members, which came as a surprise, because they have said that they would spend £800 million on roads and on a whole wish list of other transport issues. We have to prioritise; we are a Government with a budget.

Mr Nick Johnston said:

\"Nobody wants to see diversions from health and education\".

That is absolutely true. We need to work within the existing budget and our challenge is to prioritise effectively. That is what we have done.

We also want to make the most effective use of our existing infrastructure. That is why we think that it is important to take an appropriate amount of freight off the roads. To answer Mr Young's question, it is not about getting all freight off roads. Last week, I spoke to the Road Haulage Association, to say how important we see its work as part of an integrated transport strategy. The whole purpose of the strategic roads review is to achieve the right balance.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:14.3101891+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C710979", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1045.0, "ContributionID": 710979, "EditedText": "No, thank you. I am trying to answer the question that I have just been asked. We will commission a multi-modal study. The challenge is not just to think about huge investment in roads; it is about the existing use of our road network, to work out better ways to get people off roads and to give them high-quality choices. As Ms Fabiani suggested, we need a holistic approach. We must make the best use of our infrastructure. We have no ideological objection to roads. Roads are a fundamental part of our transport investment and a key part of our transport infrastructure. The Executive wants to ensure that our roads are used effectively and that we invest in them. That means maintenance—a responsible approach. It is not just about investing in new roads; it is also about ensuring that we have sufficient investment in the existing infrastructure.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, thank you. I am trying to answer the question that I have just been asked.

We will commission a multi-modal study. The challenge is not just to think about huge investment in roads; it is about the existing use of our road network, to work out better ways to get people off roads and to give them high-quality choices. As Ms Fabiani suggested, we need a holistic approach. We must make the best use of our infrastructure.

We have no ideological objection to roads. Roads are a fundamental part of our transport investment and a key part of our transport infrastructure. The Executive wants to ensure that our roads are used effectively and that we invest in them. That means maintenance—a responsible approach. It is not just about investing in new roads; it is also about ensuring that we have sufficient investment in the existing infrastructure.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:14.3101891+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1756E184P464C710650", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Grahame, Christine", "ID": 1756, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Christine Grahame", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Christine Grahame rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 358.0, "ContributionID": 710650, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:00:34.116328+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1773E197P503C711030", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliamentary Elections", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27023, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1119.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1119.0, "ID": 27023, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hyslop, Fiona", "ID": 1773, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona Hyslop", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona Hyslop (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1137.0, "ContributionID": 711030, "EditedText": "I welcome this important debate, but I do not think that the Lothians count scandal is necessarily the talk of the steamie. It does, however, go to the heart and soul of this place, because it concerns the democracy of the Parliament, and the Scottish Parliament does matter to the people of Scotland. If we expect people to come out and vote, and if we want to encourage people—particularly young people—to use their vote, we have to ensure that every vote counts. That is the strong message: these votes must be counted regardless. I was in a strange position. There was not just the one Lothians count at Meadowbank: there were two. I was perhaps the only member at the Bathgate count, where the same number of ballot papers was counted. Theirs was an exemplary count, which is an important point as there were different factors behind the problems that arose. When I left Bathgate at around 3 or 4 in the morning, every vote had been counted. I arrived to find an utter shambles at Meadowbank. It is significant that, in the same region, there were two quite different experiences. There are lessons to be learnt from the experience. An accident was waiting to happen at Meadowbank. When Alistair Darling was elected in 1997, the declaration took place at 4.30 am, which shows that there were problems then. Important practical suggestions must be made. No one has mentioned our electronic voting system. A strong case could be made to review the form in which the election took place. I suggest that electronic voting should be considered. When elections are held is important. I call for separate local government and Scottish Parliament elections—separate elections and counts are essential. The key to the debate is the role of the secretary of state. Mr Aitchison knew that there was a problem on 12 May; Scottish Office officers were informed on 23 June. Then there was silence. Elections are at the heart and soul of this Parliament and of democracy. It is essential that we find out from the secretary of state his role, what he knew and how he behaved. If we have to ask the First Minister to do that, we will do so. congratulate Lord James on securing this debate. We must learn exactly what happened and what the role and responsibility of the secretary of state was. I am not satisfied that everything that could have been done was done to ensure that we were aware of the problem.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome this important debate, but I do not think that the Lothians count scandal is necessarily the talk of the steamie. It does, however, go to the heart and soul of this place, because it concerns the democracy of the Parliament, and the Scottish Parliament does matter to the people of Scotland.

If we expect people to come out and vote, and if we want to encourage people—particularly young people—to use their vote, we have to ensure that every vote counts. That is the strong message: these votes must be counted regardless.

I was in a strange position. There was not just the one Lothians count at Meadowbank: there were two. I was perhaps the only member at the Bathgate count, where the same number of ballot papers was counted. Theirs was an exemplary count, which is an important point as there were different factors behind the problems that arose.

When I left Bathgate at around 3 or 4 in the morning, every vote had been counted. I arrived to find an utter shambles at Meadowbank. It is significant that, in the same region, there were two quite different experiences.

There are lessons to be learnt from the experience. An accident was waiting to happen at Meadowbank. When Alistair Darling was elected in 1997, the declaration took place at 4.30 am, which shows that there were problems then.

Important practical suggestions must be made. No one has mentioned our electronic voting system. A strong case could be made to review the form in which the election took place. I suggest that electronic voting should be considered. When elections are held is important. I call for separate local government and Scottish Parliament elections—separate elections and counts are essential.

The key to the debate is the role of the secretary of state. Mr Aitchison knew that there was a problem on 12 May; Scottish Office officers were informed on 23 June. Then there was silence. Elections are at the heart and soul of this Parliament and of democracy. It is essential that we find out from the secretary of state his role, what he knew and how he behaved. If we have to ask the First Minister to do that, we will do so. congratulate Lord James on securing this debate. We must learn exactly what happened and what the role and responsibility of the secretary of state was. I am not satisfied that everything that could have been done was done to ensure that we were aware of the problem.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:01:00.1970678+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2180E179P471C710644", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lochhead, Richard", "ID": 2180, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Lochhead", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Richard Lochhead: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 346.0, "ContributionID": 710644, "EditedText": "The minister mentioned accountants. Does the recent financial statement allocate more or less money over the next three years to rural affairs in Scotland than was allocated in the last three years of the previous Tory Government?", "EditedTextHTML": "The minister mentioned accountants. Does the recent financial statement allocate more or less money over the next three years to rural affairs in Scotland than was allocated in the last three years of the previous Tory Government?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:20.9827029+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2180E179P471C710642", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lochhead, Richard", "ID": 2180, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Lochhead", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Richard Lochhead (North-East Scotland) (SNP) rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 342.0, "ContributionID": 710642, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:20.9827029+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2180E179P471C710755", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Pig Industry", "QuestionHeadingID": 27009, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "DisplayOrder": 567.0, "ID": 27009, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lochhead, Richard", "ID": 2180, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Lochhead", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Richard Lochhead: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 574.0, "ContributionID": 710755, "EditedText": "I welcome the minister's answer. Many people will have noticed that many members are wearing badges that say, \"Save the Scottish Pig Industry\". In addition, I urge all members to sign the all-party motion that was lodged today. I urge the minister to use every measure possible to encourage people to buy Scottish pigmeat.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the minister's answer. Many people will have noticed that many members are wearing badges that say, \"Save the Scottish Pig Industry\". In addition, I urge all members to sign the all-party motion that was lodged today. I urge the minister to use every measure possible to encourage people to buy

Scottish pigmeat.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:20.9827029+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2180E179P471C710982", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lochhead, Richard", "ID": 2180, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Lochhead", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Richard Lochhead: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1051.0, "ContributionID": 710982, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:31.1569345+00:00" }, { "ID": "C710485", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Thursday 4 November 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26987, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26987, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 2.0, "ContributionID": 710485, "EditedText": "THE PRESIDING OFFICER opened the meeting at 09:30", "EditedTextHTML": "[THE PRESIDING OFFICER opened the meeting at 09:30]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2117E79P104C710492", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macdonald, Lewis", "ID": 2117, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lewis Macdonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Lewis Macdonald (Aberdeen Central) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 17.0, "ContributionID": 710492, "EditedText": "In light of that comment, what alternative proposal do you have to meet our obligations to reduce emissions under Kyoto—", "EditedTextHTML": "In light of that comment, what alternative proposal do you have to meet our obligations to reduce emissions under Kyoto—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1888E265P358C710496", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morgan, Alasdair", "ID": 1888, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Galloway and Upper Nithsdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morgan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alasdair Morgan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 25.0, "ContributionID": 710496, "EditedText": "I suspect that George knows the answer to that question—however, not many tonnes would need to be exported from Northern Ireland to exceed what is being exported from Scotland. The point is that a Scottish voice in Brussels can make the case more effectively than can the Westminster Government, and it can certainly make it more effectively than the previous Government could.", "EditedTextHTML": "I suspect that George knows the answer to that question—however, not many tonnes would need to be exported from Northern Ireland to exceed what is being exported from Scotland. The point is that a Scottish voice in Brussels can make the case more effectively than can the Westminster Government, and it can certainly make it more effectively than the previous Government could.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C710507", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ross Finnie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 48.0, "ContributionID": 710507, "EditedText": "What is important is that we deal with the substantial point about getting British beef back into Europe. The substantial point is—I repeat—that no compromises have been contemplated or made. We are seeking to break the logjam and it is the Executive's view—in discussion with UK ministers—that if our giving the French assurances on technical matters enables them to lift the ban instantly, that is a much better and more progressive way of dealing with the problem. If that does not work and the French remain obdurate, we are in for protracted legal discussions. That will not do Scottish beef one bit of good. We have taken the view that, if we can, we want to solve this problem as quickly as possible. We are wholly supported by Commissioner Byrne, who has indicated that he wishes to see France's further considerations concluded by Thursday. If that happens, we expect that that will lead to an early resolution of the matter. Time is precious, so I will move on to other issues. The SNP suggests that the Executive has failed to support successfully Scotland's tourism industry. I recognise that industry's importance—it is worth around £2.5 billion annually and supports around 177,000 jobs. The Executive has demonstrated its commitment by promising to launch a new strategy for the industry by January 2000. That strategy was subject to a wide and highly successful consultation exercise during August and September, which was made more valuable by the fact that many of the submissions came from the sharp end of the industry.", "EditedTextHTML": "What is important is that we deal with the substantial point about getting British beef back into Europe. The substantial point is—I repeat—that no compromises have been contemplated or made. We are seeking to break the logjam and it is the Executive's view—in discussion with UK ministers—that if our giving the French assurances on technical matters enables them to lift the ban instantly, that is a much better and more progressive way of dealing with the problem.

If that does not work and the French remain obdurate, we are in for protracted legal discussions. That will not do Scottish beef one bit of good. We have taken the view that, if we can, we want to solve this problem as quickly as possible. We are wholly supported by Commissioner Byrne, who has indicated that he wishes to see France's further considerations concluded by Thursday. If that happens, we expect that that will lead to an early resolution of the matter.

Time is precious, so I will move on to other issues. The SNP suggests that the Executive has failed to support successfully Scotland's tourism industry. I recognise that industry's importance—it is worth around £2.5 billion annually and supports around 177,000 jobs. The Executive has demonstrated its commitment by promising to launch a new strategy for the industry by January 2000. That strategy was subject to a wide and highly successful consultation exercise during August and September, which was made more valuable by the fact that many of the submissions came from the sharp end of the industry.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1893E47P78C710517", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnstone, Alex", "ID": 1893, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Johnstone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Johnstone: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 69.0, "ContributionID": 710517, "EditedText": "I would be delighted.", "EditedTextHTML": "I would be delighted.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C710511", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ross Finnie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 56.0, "ContributionID": 710511, "EditedText": "The key issue is not just the fuel escalator but accessibility—to shops, to work, to medical services and so on, all of which can cause problems in rural areas. That is why we have added a distinctive rural dimension to our social inclusion partnerships. We have taken action to help address the distinctive transport needs of rural areas: £14 million over the next three years for rural transport; 350 new or improved public transport services; and funding for 53 community transport schemes across rural Scotland. That remains a priority for us.The Executive fully recognises the deep concerns in rural Scotland about high fuel prices. I assure members that my ministerial colleagues are making the extent and nature of that problem very clear to our colleagues down south and that the Chancellor of the Exchequer is well aware of Scotland's problems and the difficulties in its economy, both broadly and specifically in relation to the tourism industry. I assure members that the interests of Scotland's rural communities are firmly on the agenda in Westminster and in Whitehall. The SNP motion refers to the shortage of affordable rural housing. That is a matter that we, too, are taking seriously—we are ensuring that 18,000 new and improved homes will be built over the next three years. Post offices are a reserved matter. However, after the white paper was published, I arranged a meeting with the Post Office Counters Ltd manager for Scotland. While I share concern about the problems that could arise as a result of benefits being paid by automated transfer, I was much encouraged by the commitment that the Post Office showed in that document and in that meeting to introduce technology in every post office, including rural post offices. That will give post offices the opportunity to act as a banking service, which may result in their retaining some of the custom that, as was rightly pointed out, could otherwise be lost. I intend to keep pressing that matter with Post Office Counters Ltd and I am glad that the point was made. There is no real substance in the SNP motion. The Tory amendment is extraordinary, as all it seeks to do is to absolve the Conservatives of responsibility for the BSE crisis. MEMBERS: \"Hear, hear.\" I hope that the Tories will confine their remarks to that point, as it seems to be the only point that they want to make. I move amendment S1M-242.2, to leave out from \"drastic\" to end and insert: \"difficulties being faced by the agriculture industry; endorses the principle contained in the Partnership for Scotland agreement of working to support and enhance rural life and the rural economy; commends the steps already taken by the Scottish Executive to achieve these aims; and supports the Executive in its determination to promote long-term sustainable development, both in the agriculture industry and throughout rural Scotland.\"", "EditedTextHTML": "The key issue is not just the fuel escalator but accessibility—to shops, to work, to medical services and so on, all of which can cause problems in rural areas. That is why we have added a distinctive rural dimension to our social inclusion partnerships.

We have taken action to help address the distinctive transport needs of rural areas: £14 million over the next three years for rural transport; 350 new or improved public transport services; and funding for 53 community transport schemes across rural Scotland. That remains a priority for

us.

The Executive fully recognises the deep concerns in rural Scotland about high fuel prices. I assure members that my ministerial colleagues are making the extent and nature of that problem very clear to our colleagues down south and that the Chancellor of the Exchequer is well aware of Scotland's problems and the difficulties in its economy, both broadly and specifically in relation to the tourism industry. I assure members that the interests of Scotland's rural communities are firmly on the agenda in Westminster and in Whitehall.

The SNP motion refers to the shortage of affordable rural housing. That is a matter that we, too, are taking seriously—we are ensuring that 18,000 new and improved homes will be built over the next three years.

Post offices are a reserved matter. However, after the white paper was published, I arranged a meeting with the Post Office Counters Ltd manager for Scotland. While I share concern about the problems that could arise as a result of benefits being paid by automated transfer, I was much encouraged by the commitment that the Post Office showed in that document and in that meeting to introduce technology in every post office, including rural post offices. That will give post offices the opportunity to act as a banking service, which may result in their retaining some of the custom that, as was rightly pointed out, could otherwise be lost. I intend to keep pressing that matter with Post Office Counters Ltd and I am glad that the point was made.

There is no real substance in the SNP motion. The Tory amendment is extraordinary, as all it seeks to do is to absolve the Conservatives of responsibility for the BSE crisis. [MEMBERS: \"Hear, hear.\"] I hope that the Tories will confine their remarks to that point, as it seems to be the only point that they want to make.

I move amendment S1M-242.2, to leave out from \"drastic\" to end and insert:

\"difficulties being faced by the agriculture industry; endorses the principle contained in the Partnership for Scotland agreement of working to support and enhance rural life and the rural economy; commends the steps already taken by the Scottish Executive to achieve these aims; and supports the Executive in its determination to promote long-term sustainable development, both in the agriculture industry and throughout rural Scotland.\"

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1893E47P78C710526", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnstone, Alex", "ID": 1893, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Johnstone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Johnstone: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 87.0, "ContributionID": 710526, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C710527", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ross Finnie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 89.0, "ContributionID": 710527, "EditedText": "Will Mr Johnstone point—", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr Johnstone point—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1893E47P78C710531", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnstone, Alex", "ID": 1893, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Johnstone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Johnstone: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 97.0, "ContributionID": 710531, "EditedText": "I will give him this opportunity.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will give him this opportunity.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4826755+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1893E47P78C710533", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnstone, Alex", "ID": 1893, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Johnstone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Johnstone: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 101.0, "ContributionID": 710533, "EditedText": "I am delighted that Ross Finnie is thinking so far ahead. The inference that is to be drawn from my comments is that interest rates in the UK are too high. Compared with the European average, a greater burden is placed on the British farmer. The strength of sterling has placed enormous pressure on farmers in the UK and Scotland. The increase in transport costs, which has been dealt with at great length by the SNP in proposing the motion, is an example of how a tax measure can deliberately hit hardest those who are most distant from the centre of their markets. That has caused enormous damage to Scottish rural industries, including farming, tourism and many others. The loss of value of our livestock and their by- products has resulted in a collapse in the value of the farming industry's produce. Many of the above costs are a result of differential Government legislation and regulation in the UK and Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am delighted that Ross Finnie is thinking so far ahead. The inference that is to be drawn from my comments is that interest rates in the UK are too high. Compared with the European average, a greater burden is placed on the British farmer.

The strength of sterling has placed enormous pressure on farmers in the UK and Scotland. The increase in transport costs, which has been dealt with at great length by the SNP in proposing the motion, is an example of how a tax measure can deliberately hit hardest those who are most distant from the centre of their markets. That has caused enormous damage to Scottish rural industries, including farming, tourism and many others.

The loss of value of our livestock and their by- products has resulted in a collapse in the value of the farming industry's produce. Many of the above costs are a result of differential Government

legislation and regulation in the UK and Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4826755+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C710534", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 103.0, "ContributionID": 710534, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4826755+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1893E47P78C710535", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnstone, Alex", "ID": 1893, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Johnstone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Johnstone: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 105.0, "ContributionID": 710535, "EditedText": "No, not at this point. The strength of sterling is the biggest problem we face, and the artificially high interest rates that I mentioned a moment ago are the primary cause of that. That is why we need to take every opportunity to ensure that the chancellor has our words ringing in his ears when in future he considers his advice to the monetary policy committee. The Scottish Conservative approach is to give our farmers a chance by introducing comprehensive product labelling to safeguard and reward our farmers' high animal welfare and production standards. In the United Kingdom and in Scotland, there is a desire for quality of production in our farming industry. However, if we impose standards that are higher than those imposed in other parts of the single market, we must give our farmers the opportunity of a genuine premium over their foreign competition. To achieve that, we must be able to differentiate the products that are produced under UK or Scottish conditions from those that are produced to lower standards in other parts of Europe. For that reason, the issue of labelling is of the highest priority. It is essential that we make whatever progress we can on getting to a stage where country-of-origin labelling for food products in the United Kingdom covers all products that are imported from other European countries. We need to know that when we buy Scottish we are buying something that is produced in Scotland, and that when we buy something labelled as being from another European country we are buying something that was produced to that country's standards. We need action to root out unfair and illegal subsidies. We need to ensure that other countries that choose to support their industries in their own way are not allowed to continue to give them the unfair advantage that they have at the moment.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, not at this point. The strength of sterling is the biggest problem we face, and the artificially high interest rates that I mentioned a moment ago are the primary cause of that. That is why we need to take every opportunity to ensure that the chancellor has our words ringing in his ears when in future he considers his advice to the monetary policy committee.

The Scottish Conservative approach is to give our farmers a chance by introducing comprehensive product labelling to safeguard and reward our farmers' high animal welfare and production standards. In the United Kingdom and in Scotland, there is a desire for quality of production in our farming industry. However, if we impose standards that are higher than those imposed in other parts of the single market, we must give our farmers the opportunity of a genuine premium over their foreign competition. To achieve that, we must be able to differentiate the products that are produced under UK or Scottish conditions from those that are produced to lower standards in other parts of Europe.

For that reason, the issue of labelling is of the highest priority. It is essential that we make whatever progress we can on getting to a stage where country-of-origin labelling for food products in the United Kingdom covers all products that are imported from other European countries. We need to know that when we buy Scottish we are buying something that is produced in Scotland, and that when we buy something labelled as being from another European country we are buying something that was produced to that country's standards.

We need action to root out unfair and illegal subsidies. We need to ensure that other countries that choose to support their industries in their own way are not allowed to continue to give them the unfair advantage that they have at the moment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4826755+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1893E47P78C710537", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnstone, Alex", "ID": 1893, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Johnstone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Johnstone: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 109.0, "ContributionID": 710537, "EditedText": "Very much so.Alasdair Morgan dealt at length with the difficulties of our pig farmers. I would like to endorse everything he said, although I would also like to draw his attention—", "EditedTextHTML": "Very much so.

Alasdair Morgan dealt at length with the difficulties of our pig farmers. I would like to endorse everything he said, although I would also like to draw his attention—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4826755+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C710538", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 111.0, "ContributionID": 710538, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4826755+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C710539", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 113.0, "ContributionID": 710539, "EditedText": "Mr Johnstone, you are in your last minute.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Johnstone, you are in your last minute.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4826755+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1893E47P78C710540", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnstone, Alex", "ID": 1893, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Johnstone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Johnstone: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 115.0, "ContributionID": 710540, "EditedText": "I am afraid that I cannot give way; I am coming to a close. I would also like to draw Alasdair Morgan's attention to the position in which our dairy farmers find themselves. There are many farmers throughout Scotland who have experienced a massive collapse in their income. Over the years, dairy farming has occasionally been subjected to the jibe that it is the one sector of our industry that never seems to hit financial problems. Last week, the Parliament received a representation from dairy farmers, who told us that farms that only three years ago were making a comfortable profit are today losing money.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am afraid that I cannot give way; I am coming to a close.

I would also like to draw Alasdair Morgan's attention to the position in which our dairy farmers find themselves. There are many farmers throughout Scotland who have experienced a massive collapse in their income. Over the years, dairy farming has occasionally been subjected to the jibe that it is the one sector of our industry that never seems to hit financial problems. Last week, the Parliament received a representation from dairy farmers, who told us that farms that only three years ago were making a comfortable profit are today losing money.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4826755+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1893E47P78C710542", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnstone, Alex", "ID": 1893, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Johnstone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Johnstone: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 119.0, "ContributionID": 710542, "EditedText": "I am sorry, but no—I am about to finish. Many smaller farmers, especially in the west of Scotland, will be driven to a point at which they can no longer continue. I want to emphasise the difficulties of the dairy industry not because I am a dairy farmer—I come from a different part of the country that may not experience the same problems—but because we need to consider the plight of small farmers in the west. Every day, I hear about long-established farming families who can no longer make a profit doing the work they have done for generations. All over Scotland, men and women—some of whom are at or beyond retiring age—are in such a financial predicament that they have no option but to continue working long hours and seven-day weeks because the value of their stock and machinery, traditionally the farmer's pension fund, will no longer cover the cost of a dignified retreat from a lifetime's work. A farmer whose objective is to earn a decent living wage is only trying to achieve the same thing as any working man. There are different strategies for coping with mounting losses in a farm business. Some farmers run down their capital investment programme, others borrow increasingly from the banks, others—myself included—have found alternative paid employment. Many do all three. There can be no doubt that time is running out. The people of rural Scotland have high expectations of this Parliament. The Rural Affairs Committee has demonstrated that it is possible for politicians to work together in the interests of rural Scotland without party political problems coming between us. The amendment, which I am delighted to move, captures the mood of the people in rural Scotland and I commend it to the Parliament. I move amendment S1M-242.1, to leave out from first \"which\" to \"farmers\".", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry, but no—I am about to finish.

Many smaller farmers, especially in the west of Scotland, will be driven to a point at which they can no longer continue. I want to emphasise the difficulties of the dairy industry not because I am a dairy farmer—I come from a different part of the country that may not experience the same problems—but because we need to consider the plight of small farmers in the west.

Every day, I hear about long-established farming families who can no longer make a profit doing the work they have done for generations. All over Scotland, men and women—some of whom are at or beyond retiring age—are in such a financial predicament that they have no option but to continue working long hours and seven-day weeks because the value of their stock and machinery, traditionally the farmer's pension fund, will no longer cover the cost of a dignified retreat from a lifetime's work. A farmer whose objective is to earn a decent living wage is only trying to achieve the same thing as any working man.

There are different strategies for coping with mounting losses in a farm business. Some farmers run down their capital investment programme, others borrow increasingly from the banks, others—myself included—have found alternative paid employment. Many do all three.

There can be no doubt that time is running out. The people of rural Scotland have high expectations of this Parliament. The Rural Affairs Committee has demonstrated that it is possible for politicians to work together in the interests of rural Scotland without party political problems coming between us.

The amendment, which I am delighted to move, captures the mood of the people in rural Scotland and I commend it to the Parliament.

I move amendment S1M-242.1, to leave out from first \"which\" to \"farmers\".

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4826755+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2140E187P335C710543", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Rumbles, Mike", "ID": 2140, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Rumbles", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Mike Rumbles (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 122.0, "ContributionID": 710543, "EditedText": "While the Liberal Democrats welcome this second major debate on the crisis in Scottish agriculture, we believe that the motion is not helpful in addressing the problems that are affecting every sector of the industry—although Alasdair Morgan's comments were constructive. We must not forget the complete ineptitude of the previous Tory Government. I must say that I am amazed at today's Tory amendment.", "EditedTextHTML": "While the Liberal Democrats welcome this second major debate on the crisis in Scottish agriculture, we believe that the motion is not helpful in addressing the problems that are affecting every sector of the industry—although Alasdair Morgan's comments were constructive.

We must not forget the complete ineptitude of the previous Tory Government. I must say that I am amazed at today's Tory amendment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4826755+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C710544", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 124.0, "ContributionID": 710544, "EditedText": "I remind Liberal Democrat members that the Government set up an inquiry into BSE in December 1997. Such is the complexity of the issues that the report, which was supposed to be made public by December 1998, is now being deferred until the middle of 2000. It was meant to be reporting to the Secretary of State for Scotland and there will not be a—", "EditedTextHTML": "I remind Liberal Democrat members that the Government set up an inquiry into BSE in December 1997. Such is the complexity of the issues that the report, which was supposed to be made public by December 1998, is now being deferred until the middle of 2000. It was meant to be reporting to the Secretary of State for Scotland and there will not be a—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4826755+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C710546", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 128.0, "ContributionID": 710546, "EditedText": "Why are the Liberal Democrats rushing to judgment before the inquiry makes the facts known?", "EditedTextHTML": "Why are the Liberal Democrats rushing to judgment before the inquiry makes the facts known?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4826755+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2140E187P335C710548", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Rumbles, Mike", "ID": 2140, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Rumbles", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Rumbles: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 132.0, "ContributionID": 710548, "EditedText": "The sooner we get the system of speaking times sorted out, the better. The Conservatives have 20 minutes to speak and we have only four.", "EditedTextHTML": "The sooner we get the system of speaking times sorted out, the better. The Conservatives have 20 minutes to speak and we have only four.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4826755+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C710553", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 143.0, "ContributionID": 710553, "EditedText": "No, I have only four minutes and I want to finish this point. It is vital that we bring together urban and rural Scotland to make a united whole. This motion seeks to do that; it is a tragedy that the actions of the Executive and the previous Tory Government failed to do that. Crucially, they have failed to make a united whole in the agricultural industries. The Tory amendment is quite bizarre. The Tories are the guilty people. One of them—", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I have only four minutes and I want to finish this point.

It is vital that we bring together urban and rural Scotland to make a united whole. This motion seeks to do that; it is a tragedy that the actions of the Executive and the previous Tory Government failed to do that. Crucially, they have failed to make a united whole in the agricultural industries. The Tory amendment is quite bizarre. The Tories are the guilty people. One of them—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4826755+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C710555", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 147.0, "ContributionID": 710555, "EditedText": "No, I am sorry—if Mr McLetchie is guilty, he will get the chance to make a plea in mitigation. One of the Tories—I am very fond of him—was a minister in the Government that took those decisions.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I am sorry—if Mr McLetchie is guilty, he will get the chance to make a plea in mitigation.

One of the Tories—I am very fond of him—was a minister in the Government that took those decisions.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4826755+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2117E79P104C710560", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macdonald, Lewis", "ID": 2117, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lewis Macdonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Lewis Macdonald (Aberdeen Central) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 158.0, "ContributionID": 710560, "EditedText": "All sides in this debate recognise the central place of agriculture in the rural economy and agree that, if farming is in trouble, that is bad news for the countryside. Most members have recognised that agricultural policy alone is not enough and that policies in areas such as housing and transport must recognise the particular needs of rural Scotland. I was pleased that Alasdair Morgan said in his introduction that the essential interests of the country and the town are fundamentally the same—I think that Mike Russell echoed that view. That view is not always held by those who engage in political debate in Scotland. There is sometimes an attempt to pretend that there is an unbridgeable gap between the interests of the town and the country. The view that there are common interests across Scotland and that agriculture is a key policy, but not the only policy, for rural development is fundamental to the Scottish Executive's programme for government. The Executive's policy is based on the recognition that although farming relates to the market, the sector benefits from very large sums of public money and the direction in which that money is invested has to be for the widest possible economic and environmental benefit. In the long term those interests are served by the policy to which the Executive has signed up.", "EditedTextHTML": "All sides in this debate recognise the central place of agriculture in the rural economy and agree that, if farming is in trouble, that is bad news for the countryside. Most members have recognised that agricultural policy alone is not enough and that

policies in areas such as housing and transport must recognise the particular needs of rural Scotland.

I was pleased that Alasdair Morgan said in his introduction that the essential interests of the country and the town are fundamentally the same—I think that Mike Russell echoed that view. That view is not always held by those who engage in political debate in Scotland. There is sometimes an attempt to pretend that there is an unbridgeable gap between the interests of the town and the country.

The view that there are common interests across Scotland and that agriculture is a key policy, but not the only policy, for rural development is fundamental to the Scottish Executive's programme for government. The Executive's policy is based on the recognition that although farming relates to the market, the sector benefits from very large sums of public money and the direction in which that money is invested has to be for the widest possible economic and environmental benefit. In the long term those interests are served by the policy to which the Executive has signed up.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4826755+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1892E34P73C710561", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Fergusson, Alex", "ID": 1892, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Fergusson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Fergusson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 160.0, "ContributionID": 710561, "EditedText": "Does Lewis Macdonald accept that the dairy and pig sectors do not receive any public funding?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does Lewis Macdonald accept that the dairy and pig sectors do not receive any public funding?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4826755+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2117E79P104C710562", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macdonald, Lewis", "ID": 2117, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lewis Macdonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Lewis Macdonald: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 162.0, "ContributionID": 710562, "EditedText": "I accept that and recognise the particular difficulties that are faced by those sectors. In the long term the solution to those problems is not simply to extend the scope of public subsidy willy-nilly. The emphasis must be shifted from production-based price support subsidies to a wider rural development focus. I believe that that is now happening. It is inevitable that there will be changes in Scottish agriculture—the National Farmers Union and others recognise that. It is also true that, if farming is left entirely to the market, we will risk losing sectors such as the pig producer sector. We will also risk losing some small producers such as hill farmers, who in some ways are the most important custodians of the countryside. We must not rely simply on market mechanisms, but need active Government involvement in those areas. I welcome what Ross Finnie said about the support the Executive provides for less favoured areas. I also applaud the commitment in the programme for government to increase spending on agricultural environmental measures and the commitment to introduce a long-term strategy to exploit Scotland's world-class research base in agricultural and biological sciences for the greater benefit of the rural economy. Much good work is already done in those areas. For example, the Macaulay Land Use Research Institute in Aberdeen works closely with the industry to put support for less favoured areas on a less intensive basis. I hope that our research strategy will continue to support such work, which is the way forward for many sectors of Scottish agriculture. There are no easy or glib answers to the problems of Scottish agriculture. In the context of Agenda 2000, and working closely with the UK Government, the Executive's measures are the right steps to take. They will help us to meet present and future challenges to the agriculture sector in the context of rural development policy as a whole.", "EditedTextHTML": "I accept that and recognise the particular difficulties that are faced by those sectors. In the long term the solution to those problems is not simply to extend the scope of public subsidy willy-nilly. The emphasis must be shifted from production-based price support subsidies to a wider rural development focus. I believe that that is now happening.

It is inevitable that there will be changes in Scottish agriculture—the National Farmers Union and others recognise that. It is also true that, if farming is left entirely to the market, we will risk losing sectors such as the pig producer sector. We will also risk losing some small producers such as hill farmers, who in some ways are the most important custodians of the countryside. We must not rely simply on market mechanisms, but need active Government involvement in those areas.

I welcome what Ross Finnie said about the support the Executive provides for less favoured areas. I also applaud the commitment in the programme for government to increase spending on agricultural environmental measures and the commitment to introduce a long-term strategy to exploit Scotland's world-class research base in agricultural and biological sciences for the greater benefit of the rural economy.

Much good work is already done in those areas. For example, the Macaulay Land Use Research Institute in Aberdeen works closely with the industry to put support for less favoured areas on a less intensive basis. I hope that our research strategy will continue to support such work, which is the way forward for many sectors of Scottish agriculture.

There are no easy or glib answers to the problems of Scottish agriculture. In the context of Agenda 2000, and working closely with the UK Government, the Executive's measures are the right steps to take. They will help us to meet present and future challenges to the agriculture sector in the context of rural development policy as a whole.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4826755+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C710564", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ross Finnie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 167.0, "ContributionID": 710564, "EditedText": "Does Mr McGrigor accept that all the costs associated with cattle passports, the regulations and the shamble of paperwork arose from the Conservative Government's handling of the BSE crisis? If anyone is going to find himself at the top of that fire, it is the member.", "EditedTextHTML": "Does Mr McGrigor accept that all the costs associated with cattle passports, the regulations and the shamble of paperwork arose from the Conservative Government's handling of the BSE crisis? If anyone is going to find himself at the top of that fire, it is the member.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4826755+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1893E47P78C710566", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnstone, Alex", "ID": 1893, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Johnstone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Johnstone: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 171.0, "ContributionID": 710566, "EditedText": "Does Mr McGrigor think that it would be appropriate for the minister to increase the price of cattle passports to £20 or £30, so that he could tell us that he was giving us a much higher level of support?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does Mr McGrigor think that it would be appropriate for the minister to increase the price of cattle passports to £20 or £30, so that he could tell us that he was giving us a much higher level of support?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4826755+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2066E64P88C710571", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McGrigor, Jamie", "ID": 2066, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie McGrigor", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McGrigor: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 181.0, "ContributionID": 710571, "EditedText": "That is not new money. That is old money which has disappeared. I sincerely hope that the Executive will honour Lord Sewel's pledge and its own commitment to the ABIS. I would also like to ask the Executive about its plans for next year's hill livestock compensatory allowances, now that the European Commission has agreed on a one-year transition period to an area-based scheme. The industry must know in advance, so that it can budget and plan.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is not new money. That is old money which has disappeared. I sincerely hope that the Executive will honour Lord Sewel's pledge and its own commitment to the ABIS.

I would also like to ask the Executive about its plans for next year's hill livestock compensatory allowances, now that the European Commission has agreed on a one-year transition period to an area-based scheme. The industry must know in advance, so that it can budget and plan.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4826755+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2066E64P88C710573", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McGrigor, Jamie", "ID": 2066, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie McGrigor", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McGrigor: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 185.0, "ContributionID": 710573, "EditedText": "It appears that, although the price of lambs is even lower than last year—", "EditedTextHTML": "It appears that, although the price of lambs is even lower than last year—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4826755+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2068E171P304C710575", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stone, Jamie", "ID": 2068, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie Stone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Stone: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 189.0, "ContributionID": 710575, "EditedText": "On a point of order. With respect, much as I am enjoying what Mr McGrigor is saying, he is into his sixth minute.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. With respect, much as I am enjoying what Mr McGrigor is saying, he is into his sixth minute.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4826755+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C710576", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 191.0, "ContributionID": 710576, "EditedText": "Mr McGrigor, you have been asked twice already. Please come to a close on the sentence that you are on.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr McGrigor, you have been asked twice already. Please come to a close on the sentence that you are on.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4826755+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2066E64P88C710577", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McGrigor, Jamie", "ID": 2066, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie McGrigor", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McGrigor: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 193.0, "ContributionID": 710577, "EditedText": "Certainly. It appears that although the price of lambs is even lower than last year, the sheep annual premium, which is meant to be a safety valve for farmers, will be lower than last year. Can the Executive please explain that?", "EditedTextHTML": "Certainly. It appears that although the price of lambs is even lower than last year, the sheep annual premium, which is meant to be a safety valve for farmers, will be lower than last year. Can the Executive please explain that?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4826755+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1840E82P158C710581", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macmillan, Maureen", "ID": 1840, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Maureen Macmillan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Maureen Macmillan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 203.0, "ContributionID": 710581, "EditedText": "I am talking about the SNP's press release after the tourism conference. Highlands fuel prices are a serious matter. Every Highlands MSP is campaigning to get something done about the differential. Furthermore, David Stewart, the MP for Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber, has been in the forefront of that campaign. Fergus Ewing has come very late to the debate. When I asked him on the hustings in Inverness about SNP policy on the differential in fuel prices, he replied that he would monitor the situation. That is wonderful. However, we can all monitor things. The Executive is getting something done by, for example, asking the Office of Fair Trading to examine the matter.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am talking about the SNP's press release after the tourism conference.

Highlands fuel prices are a serious matter. Every Highlands MSP is campaigning to get something done about the differential. Furthermore, David Stewart, the MP for Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber, has been in the forefront of that campaign. Fergus Ewing has come very late to the debate. When I asked him on the hustings in Inverness about SNP policy on the differential in fuel prices, he replied that he would monitor the situation. That is wonderful. However, we can all monitor things. The Executive is getting something done by, for example, asking the Office of Fair Trading to examine the matter.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4826755+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2188E70P92C710586", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harper, Robin", "ID": 2188, "PartyName": "Scottish Green Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Green", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robin Harper", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robin Harper (Lothians) (Green): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 214.0, "ContributionID": 710586, "EditedText": "There are threats and opportunities. I want to draw the Executive's attention to some developments in the crusade for organic farming in Britain, based, in part, on Austria's experience, where 30 per cent of farming has been converted to organic farming. In Wales, a report has been produced and placed before the Welsh Assembly. At Westminster, there has been an early-day motion on setting organic targets in England and Wales. In Scotland, the Scottish Organic Producers Association and the Soil Association will meet during the coming months to discuss a proposition for a report similar to the Welsh one, to place before the Executive. I want to urge the Executive and the Parliament in advance to give that report their most serious consideration. We hope that it will contain a way for at least 30 per cent of Scotland's farmers to move forward into a growing market and economic prosperity and a way to improve Scotland's environment. Those are the opportunities, but there are also threats. I draw the attention of the Executive and the Parliament to the fact that my motion on genetically modified crops has slipped off the end of the shelf yet again. I will resubmit it for the third and, I hope, the lucky time. The motion will be reworded to include field trials in the hope of attracting SNP signatures, as I read in yesterday's edition of The Scotsman that the SNP is committed to opposing any extension of field trials in Scotland. I hope that all SNP members will support the motion, at least in that respect. Thank you, Presiding Officer, for allowing me to contribute; you will note that my speech took less than two minutes.", "EditedTextHTML": "There are threats and opportunities. I want to draw the Executive's attention to some developments in the crusade for organic farming in Britain, based, in part, on Austria's experience, where 30 per cent of farming has been converted to organic farming.

In Wales, a report has been produced and placed before the Welsh Assembly. At Westminster, there has been an early-day motion on setting organic targets in England and Wales. In Scotland, the Scottish Organic Producers Association and the Soil Association will meet during the coming months to discuss a proposition for a report similar to the Welsh one, to place before the Executive. I want to urge the Executive and the Parliament in advance to give that report their most serious consideration. We hope that it will contain a way for at least 30 per cent of Scotland's farmers to move forward into a growing market and economic prosperity and a way to improve Scotland's environment. Those are the opportunities, but there are also threats.

I draw the attention of the Executive and the Parliament to the fact that my motion on genetically modified crops has slipped off the end of the shelf yet again. I will resubmit it for the third and, I hope, the lucky time. The motion will be reworded to include field trials in the hope of attracting SNP signatures, as I read in yesterday's edition of The Scotsman that the SNP is committed to opposing any extension of field trials in Scotland. I hope that all SNP members will support the motion, at least in that respect.

Thank you, Presiding Officer, for allowing me to contribute; you will note that my speech took less than two minutes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4826755+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1985E207P501C710587", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hamilton, Mr Duncan", "ID": 1985, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Duncan Hamilton (Highlands and Islands) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 217.0, "ContributionID": 710587, "EditedText": "I intend to speak for a lot longer than two minutes. The Government has told us a great deal about its interest in rural Scotland. That interest does not appear to be backed up by the attendance of Labour members today, which, frankly, is disgraceful. Mr Finnie is leading from the front, but there are not many of dad's army behind him today. I would be interested to know how the long-term sustainability of the rural economy, which is mentioned in the Government's amendment, and Mr Finnie's comments about his desire to reward creativity sit with the issue of the agricultural business improvement scheme, which Mr McGrigor raised. Lord Sewel said in February that the costs of the ABIS would be met in full. Farmers, many of whom were down to their lowest reserves, decided to invest in that promise and to trust in what the Government said, even though they had been let down before. Many farmers have gone to great expense, putting in up to £2,000 or £3,000 of their hard-earned resources. Now, despite the Government's promise, we discover that the costs of the scheme are not to be met in full. It is a shambles. It is a crying shame that, on the one occasion that the farmers needed the Government to stand up for them, the Government has let them down again. There has been a lack of action on the crisis in sheep farming. I understand the problems that the Government has in dealing with Europe, which seem to be endemic to the new Labour project. However, we must expect a more strategic vision than we have had thus far. I do not necessarily dispute that it is useful to have industrial input or think that assistance from an expert is a bad thing, but it raises a question in my mind. Why is Mr Finnie drawing £70,000 for a company car if he does not have the strategic vision to contribute to the debate? I have never heard the minister intervene to give such strategic vision.", "EditedTextHTML": "I intend to speak for a lot longer than two minutes.

The Government has told us a great deal about its interest in rural Scotland. That interest does not appear to be backed up by the attendance of Labour members today, which, frankly, is disgraceful. Mr Finnie is leading from the front, but there are not many of dad's army behind him today.

I would be interested to know how the long-term sustainability of the rural economy, which is mentioned in the Government's amendment, and Mr Finnie's comments about his desire to reward creativity sit with the issue of the agricultural business improvement scheme, which Mr McGrigor raised. Lord Sewel said in February that the costs of the ABIS would be met in full. Farmers, many of whom were down to their lowest reserves, decided to invest in that promise and to trust in what the Government said, even though they had been let down before. Many farmers have gone to great expense, putting in up to £2,000 or £3,000 of their hard-earned resources. Now, despite the Government's promise, we discover that the costs of the scheme are not to be met in full. It is a shambles. It is a crying shame that, on the one occasion that the farmers needed the Government to stand up for them, the Government has let them down again.

There has been a lack of action on the crisis in sheep farming. I understand the problems that the Government has in dealing with Europe, which seem to be endemic to the new Labour project. However, we must expect a more strategic vision than we have had thus far. I do not necessarily dispute that it is useful to have industrial input or think that assistance from an expert is a bad thing, but it raises a question in my mind. Why is Mr Finnie drawing £70,000 for a company car if he does not have the strategic vision to contribute to the debate? I have never heard the minister intervene to give such strategic vision.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4826755+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1990E181P340C710588", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robson, Euan", "ID": 1990, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Roxburgh and Berwickshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Euan Robson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Euan Robson (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 219.0, "ContributionID": 710588, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.498304+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C710593", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 230.0, "ContributionID": 710593, "EditedText": "Wind up, please.", "EditedTextHTML": "Wind up, please.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.498304+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1873E89P171C710594", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jackson, Dr Sylvia", "ID": 1873, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Stirling" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sylvia Jackson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Jackson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 232.0, "ContributionID": 710594, "EditedText": "I am winding up.The report also refers to the fact that flexibility is needed in rural development. As Ross Finnie said, there is a recognition of the need for a greater emphasis on the rural agenda, which is also recognised in the partnership document.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am winding up.

The report also refers to the fact that flexibility is needed in rural development. As Ross Finnie said, there is a recognition of the need for a greater emphasis on the rural agenda, which is also recognised in the partnership document.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.498304+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C710595", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 234.0, "ContributionID": 710595, "EditedText": "Please come to a close.", "EditedTextHTML": "Please come to a close.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.498304+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1990E181P340C710599", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robson, Euan", "ID": 1990, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Roxburgh and Berwickshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Euan Robson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Euan Robson (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 245.0, "ContributionID": 710599, "EditedText": "The cereals sector has not been given much coverage in this chamber, so I would like to spend a moment or two talking about arable aid, which is the support mechanism for the cereals sector and which is based on agricultural census data. It is widely recognised that, historically, the census data that define the arable base area are defective in that the base area is understated. That leads to what are called production overshoots, which have, in turn, led to a scaling down of arable aid payments to Scottish farmers—by about 6 per cent this year, I believe. That 6 per cent would be welcome income for farmers. I have constituents in Berwickshire who have fields over the border in Northumberland. Perhaps my constituent John Home Robertson is in that category. Those farmers receive 6 per cent less for the yields from their Scottish fields that they do for their English fields. I believe that there is a consultation coming soon on that, but I ask ministers to bear in mind that the issue is of considerable importance to some people in Scotland. Berwickshire is five times more dependent on agriculture than the average Scottish county. Another interesting figure that I heard recently is that, a few years ago, 300 to 400 acres of cereals could sustain a family farm in Berwickshire and at that level the farmer could afford additional labour. The figure has now risen to about 700 acres before an employee can be taken on. I want to spend a few minutes addressing the pig sector. Those of us who attended the presentation that was given by that industry could hardly fail to be impressed by the case that it made. As has been noted, that industry receives no direct support. I welcome the minister's efforts on currency compensation and I wish him well in his efforts. Misleading labelling is a problem. I hope that I have heard today that, when a label says that a product is produced in Scotland or the UK, it does not refer to an imported carcase that is cut and packed in Scotland or the UK and then labelled in that manner. We must get rid of that problem, and I am sure that the minister will make efforts to do so. That is important, not only for the consumer but for the producer. That point was firmly made to us by the industry. I was pleased to hear that, henceforth, Government departments will purchase quality Scottish and British pork. We must try to cut costs for the industry. The minister will recall our recent visit to Allflex, in Hawick. I commend to him the electronic tagging scheme that has been developed in the Scottish Borders. He is studying a deep and bulky consultation document on that, but electronic tagging is a clear way of cutting costs for the farming community. It is also important that we revisit the issue of veterinary inspections. In many EU countries the cost of inspections is met by Governments, out of public health budgets. It is high time for us to revisit that issue. What is good for other European countries must surely be good for Scotland. We must cut the burdens on farmers. My final point is that we must try to add value to products locally. In the Borders, for instance, much of the produce leaves the region without any value being added to it. If we could introduce a sawmill, in the forestry industry, or an abattoir with some additional form of finishing and processing, in the cattle sector, that would help considerably.", "EditedTextHTML": "The cereals sector has not been given much coverage in this chamber, so I would like to spend a moment or two talking about arable aid, which is the support mechanism for the cereals sector and which is based on agricultural census data. It is widely recognised that, historically, the census data that define the arable base area are defective in that the base area is understated. That leads to what are called production overshoots, which have, in turn, led to a scaling down of arable aid payments to Scottish farmers—by about 6 per cent this year, I believe. That 6 per cent would be welcome income for farmers.

I have constituents in Berwickshire who have fields over the border in Northumberland. Perhaps my constituent John Home Robertson is in that category. Those farmers receive 6 per cent less for the yields from their Scottish fields that they do for their English fields. I believe that there is a consultation coming soon on that, but I ask ministers to bear in mind that the issue is of considerable importance to some people in Scotland.

Berwickshire is five times more dependent on agriculture than the average Scottish county. Another interesting figure that I heard recently is that, a few years ago, 300 to 400 acres of cereals could sustain a family farm in Berwickshire and at that level the farmer could afford additional labour. The figure has now risen to about 700 acres before an employee can be taken on.

I want to spend a few minutes addressing the pig sector. Those of us who attended the presentation that was given by that industry could hardly fail to be impressed by the case that it made. As has been noted, that industry receives no direct support. I welcome the minister's efforts on currency compensation and I wish him well in his efforts.

Misleading labelling is a problem. I hope that I have heard today that, when a label says that a product is produced in Scotland or the UK, it does not refer to an imported carcase that is cut and packed in Scotland or the UK and then labelled in that manner. We must get rid of that problem, and I am sure that the minister will make efforts to do so. That is important, not only for the consumer but for the producer. That point was firmly made to us by the industry. I was pleased to hear that, henceforth, Government departments will purchase quality Scottish and British pork.

We must try to cut costs for the industry. The minister will recall our recent visit to Allflex, in Hawick. I commend to him the electronic tagging scheme that has been developed in the Scottish Borders. He is studying a deep and bulky consultation document on that, but electronic tagging is a clear way of cutting costs for the farming community. It is also important that we revisit the issue of veterinary inspections. In many EU countries the cost of inspections is met by Governments, out of public health budgets. It is high time for us to revisit that issue. What is good for other European countries must surely be good for Scotland. We must cut the burdens on farmers.

My final point is that we must try to add value to products locally. In the Borders, for instance, much of the produce leaves the region without any value being added to it. If we could introduce a sawmill, in the forestry industry, or an abattoir with some additional form of finishing and processing, in the cattle sector, that would help considerably.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.498304+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C710607", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 264.0, "ContributionID": 710607, "EditedText": "Will the member give way so that I can clarify that point?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way so that I can clarify that point?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.498304+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C710610", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 270.0, "ContributionID": 710610, "EditedText": "Can I come back then?", "EditedTextHTML": "Can I come back then?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.498304+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C710617", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 286.0, "ContributionID": 710617, "EditedText": "I call Mr Davidson.", "EditedTextHTML": "I call Mr Davidson.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.498304+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C710619", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 291.0, "ContributionID": 710619, "EditedText": "Sadly, you did not. The title is Presiding Officer.", "EditedTextHTML": "Sadly, you did not. The title is Presiding Officer.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.498304+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C710628", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 310.0, "ContributionID": 710628, "EditedText": "I call John Farquhar Munro, to be followed by George Lyon. I know that the selection of speakers is a bit unbalanced.", "EditedTextHTML": "I call John Farquhar Munro, to be followed by George Lyon. I know that the selection of speakers is a bit unbalanced.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.498304+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C710643", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ross Finnie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 344.0, "ContributionID": 710643, "EditedText": "I will take Mr Lochhead's point in a moment. I want to say to Mike that the sooner we recognise that the agriculture sector, the food sector and the tourism sector are all businesses, the better. If we are to inject more money back into the rural economy, as has been suggested, we have to do far more to deal with some of the problems. I would like to pick up on some of Duncan Hamilton's points. One of the sad features of the agriculture business is that in far too many cases—though not in every case—the primary producer is in one place, the abattoir in another, the processor in another and the consumer somewhere else. Unless we can bring them together, the chances of bringing added value back into the rural economy are almost zero.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will take Mr Lochhead's point in a moment.

I want to say to Mike that the sooner we recognise that the agriculture sector, the food sector and the tourism sector are all businesses, the better. If we are to inject more money back into the rural economy, as has been suggested, we have to do far more to deal with some of the problems.

I would like to pick up on some of Duncan Hamilton's points. One of the sad features of the agriculture business is that in far too many cases—though not in every case—the primary producer is in one place, the abattoir in another, the processor in another and the consumer somewhere else. Unless we can bring them together, the chances of bringing added value back into the rural economy are almost zero.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.498304+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C710626", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 306.0, "ContributionID": 710626, "EditedText": "I would be grateful if you came to a conclusion.", "EditedTextHTML": "I would be grateful if you came to a conclusion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.498304+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1878E208P502C710627", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Dr Winnie", "ID": 1878, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Winnie Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 308.0, "ContributionID": 710627, "EditedText": "I have another point. There are two RAF bases in Morayshire, where I am happy to live. They get beef supplied from Argentina and— sometimes—Nigeria. No one would suggest that those countries' farmers are enforcing rules in the way that our farmers are. The RAF does not want to use Argentine beef; it wants to use Scottish beef. Surely this Parliament can do something about that.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have another point. There are two RAF bases in Morayshire, where I am happy to live. They get beef supplied from Argentina and— sometimes—Nigeria. No one would suggest that those countries' farmers are enforcing rules in the way that our farmers are. The RAF does not want to use Argentine beef; it wants to use Scottish beef. Surely this Parliament can do something about that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.498304+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2085E206P337C710629", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Munro, John Farquhar", "ID": 2085, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ross, Skye and Inverness West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Farquhar Munro", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr John Munro (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 313.0, "ContributionID": 710629, "EditedText": "We have had an extensive debate on the issues that affect rural Scotland. Mr Davidson made a good point when he suggested that the rural economy has many facets. We hear about the problems in tourism, dairy farming, the pig industry and so on. Each problem is dependent on every other one. The failure of one section of the rural economy has an adverse affect on other sections. Winnie Ewing made a point about crofting communities. In crofting communities, it is accepted that every croft is just a piece of land that is surrounded by legislation. When I go around my constituency, people bombard me with stories of how they have been inundated with forms to fill in. People are asked to fill in forms that use terminology such as \"hectares\", which is an alien word to them. They are asked to supply grid references, a concept that they do not understand. They put the forms behind the clock on the mantelpiece and leave them for another time. If they make even a simple mistake when they finally fill in the form, the inspectors come round to examine their records. Small mistakes have resulted in horrendous problems such as the loss of subsidy, which is the only income that some crofters have and, until now, there has been no right of appeal. I am glad to hear from the minister that the issue will be examined. Jamie McGrigor spoke about cattle passports and suggested that farmers and crofters might have to take their paperwork to the mart in a carrier bag or a case. One of my colleagues in the Highlands had a better solution: he was going to cross his cattle with a kangaroo so that they would all have pouches for keeping the paperwork in. My main plea is for a right of appeal. We hear about the problems in the sheep industry. A farmer from Easter Ross told me on the phone last week that, in September last year, he had taken 26 cattle to the mart. The documentation and ear tags had been correct and everything was in order. Some months later, an inspector came to check the farmer's records. He found that one calf out of the 26 had been sold in the mart eight hours too soon—it would have qualified at midnight, but the farmer sold it at 4 o'clock in the afternoon. Because of that, he lost the subsidy on his 26 stock. That is quite ridiculous. The rural affairs department should look at the situation and tell those people who have been penalised by the loss of their subsidies that a new system will be developed. Until that system is in place, there should be an amnesty for the people who have been penalised—in my view, inappropriately. The fuel duty escalator—and the other problems that have been created for rural Scotland—has been mentioned. There is another anomaly in my constituency—the high cost of the Skye bridge tolls. The crofters and farmers, together with much of the local community—and with the support of many in the political parties—are campaigning strongly, asking the Scottish Executive and the Skye bridge toll company to reintroduce for agricultural movement across the bridge the concession that Caledonian MacBrayne had in the past.", "EditedTextHTML": "We have had an extensive debate on the issues that affect rural Scotland. Mr Davidson made a good point when he suggested that the rural economy has many facets. We hear about the problems in tourism, dairy farming, the pig industry and so on. Each problem is dependent on every other one. The failure of one section of the rural economy has an adverse affect on other sections.

Winnie Ewing made a point about crofting communities. In crofting communities, it is accepted that every croft is just a piece of land that is surrounded by legislation. When I go around my constituency, people bombard me with stories of how they have been inundated with forms to fill in. People are asked to fill in forms that use terminology such as \"hectares\", which is an alien word to them. They are asked to supply grid references, a concept that they do not understand. They put the forms behind the clock on the mantelpiece and leave them for another time. If they make even a simple mistake when they finally fill in the form, the inspectors come round to examine their records. Small mistakes have resulted in horrendous problems such as the loss of subsidy, which is the only income that some crofters have and, until now, there has been no right of appeal. I am glad to hear from the minister that the issue will be examined.

Jamie McGrigor spoke about cattle passports and suggested that farmers and crofters might have to take their paperwork to the mart in a carrier bag or a case. One of my colleagues in the Highlands had a better solution: he was going to cross his cattle with a kangaroo so that they would all have pouches for keeping the paperwork in.

My main plea is for a right of appeal. We hear about the problems in the sheep industry. A farmer from Easter Ross told me on the phone last week that, in September last year, he had taken 26 cattle to the mart. The documentation and ear tags had been correct and everything was in order. Some months later, an inspector came to check the farmer's records. He found that one calf out of the 26 had been sold in the mart eight hours too soon—it would have qualified at midnight, but the farmer sold it at 4 o'clock in the afternoon. Because of that, he lost the subsidy on his 26 stock. That is quite ridiculous.

The rural affairs department should look at the situation and tell those people who have been penalised by the loss of their subsidies that a new system will be developed. Until that system is in place, there should be an amnesty for the people who have been penalised—in my view, inappropriately.

The fuel duty escalator—and the other problems that have been created for rural Scotland—has been mentioned. There is another anomaly in my constituency—the high cost of the Skye bridge tolls. The crofters and farmers, together with much of the local community—and with the support of many in the political parties—are campaigning strongly, asking the Scottish Executive and the Skye bridge toll company to reintroduce for agricultural movement across the bridge the concession that Caledonian MacBrayne had in the past.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.498304+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C710630", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon (Argyll and Bute) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 316.0, "ContributionID": 710630, "EditedText": "welcome this debate; rural affairs is an important subject to which the Parliament should devote as much time as possible, as there is a real crisis out there. The crisis is deep and has been prolonged for the past two to three years. I am not going to launch—as David Davidson suggested—into a tirade against the Conservative party, but I think—", "EditedTextHTML": "welcome this debate; rural affairs is an important subject to which the Parliament should devote as much time as possible, as there is a real crisis out there. The crisis is deep and has been prolonged for the past two to three years.

I am not going to launch—as David Davidson suggested—into a tirade against the Conservative party, but I think—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.498304+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C710632", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 320.0, "ContributionID": 710632, "EditedText": "Okay, then.Some of the statements that Alex Johnstone made were rather disingenuous to say the least. It is beyond belief: 18 years of Tory rule wiped from the face of history; gone for ever. Let us face it, it is a matter of record that a Tory Government introduced the unilateral ban on sow stalls and tethers for the pig industry and deregulated the milk industry, flinging producers to the vagaries of the market and the big companies such as Wiseman Milk Services and Unigate Dairies. It was the Tory Government that refused to access agri-monetary compensation in 1996-97 when the exchange rate moved against the industry and that introduced the massive burden of regulation that we face as a direct result of its failure to implement its own regulations over the period 1988 to 1996. It was caught out, the whistle was blown and Mr Dorrell was forced to stand up in the House of Commons and admit that there was a serious problem.", "EditedTextHTML": "Okay, then.

Some of the statements that Alex Johnstone made were rather disingenuous to say the least. It is beyond belief: 18 years of Tory rule wiped from the face of history; gone for ever. Let us face it, it is a matter of record that a Tory Government introduced the unilateral ban on sow stalls and tethers for the pig industry and deregulated the milk industry, flinging producers to the vagaries of the market and the big companies such as Wiseman Milk Services and Unigate Dairies. It was the Tory Government that refused to access agri-monetary compensation in 1996-97 when the exchange rate moved against the industry and that introduced the massive burden of regulation that we face as a direct result of its failure to implement its own regulations over the period 1988 to 1996. It was caught out, the whistle was blown and Mr Dorrell was forced to stand up in the House of Commons and admit that there was a serious problem.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.498304+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C710634", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 324.0, "ContributionID": 710634, "EditedText": "I thank Mr Davidson for that—he wants to write my speech for me now. We all remember the short-lived beef war fought by John Major. What a successful campaign that was. I am sorry to say that those events did happen. It is as well that we record them in the Parliament today. I think that the Conservatives should accept that some responsibility belongs to the Tory Administration. As David Davidson rightly says, in 1997 the Labour Government continued the same policies on agri-monetary compensation. We now have a quite different scenario. At long last—I have long experience of agriculture ministers—we have a minister who is part of the solution rather than the problem. We have a minister who is addressing fundamental issues such as help for co-ops, to try to rebuild the co-operative movement in Scotland so that it can stand up to the major milk processors. I look forward to an announcement on Monday about the establishment of a Scottish marketing body that will build on the strength of the Scottish brand, which undoubtedly exists. We have heard about the problems that affect timber, tourism and fishing as well as agriculture. The fuel duty escalator is causing some damage, but the fundamental problem is the exchange rate. There has been a revaluation of 30 per cent since 1996, which has resulted in a 30 per cent drop in the prices that the industries receive. The only fundamental long-term cure for many of our primary industries is for the three political parties to promote the positive arguments for joining the euro. We should not lose that debate by default by refusing to take on the narrow, English-based, Tory, Euro-sceptic view on the matter.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank Mr Davidson for that—he wants to write my speech for me now.

We all remember the short-lived beef war fought by John Major. What a successful campaign that was. I am sorry to say that those events did happen. It is as well that we record them in the Parliament today. I think that the Conservatives should accept that some responsibility belongs to the Tory Administration.

As David Davidson rightly says, in 1997 the Labour Government continued the same policies on agri-monetary compensation. We now have a quite different scenario. At long last—I have long experience of agriculture ministers—we have a minister who is part of the solution rather than the problem. We have a minister who is addressing fundamental issues such as help for co-ops, to try to rebuild the co-operative movement in Scotland so that it can stand up to the major milk processors.

I look forward to an announcement on Monday about the establishment of a Scottish marketing body that will build on the strength of the Scottish brand, which undoubtedly exists.

We have heard about the problems that affect timber, tourism and fishing as well as agriculture. The fuel duty escalator is causing some damage, but the fundamental problem is the exchange rate. There has been a revaluation of 30 per cent since 1996, which has resulted in a 30 per cent drop in the prices that the industries receive.

The only fundamental long-term cure for many of our primary industries is for the three political parties to promote the positive arguments for joining the euro. We should not lose that debate by default by refusing to take on the narrow, English-based, Tory, Euro-sceptic view on the matter.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.498304+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C710648", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 354.0, "ContributionID": 710648, "EditedText": "I am very happy to concur with the minister's view that they are businesses. How are any businesses in Scotland helped by the fuel duty escalator?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am very happy to concur with the minister's view that they are businesses. How are any businesses in Scotland helped by the fuel duty escalator?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.498304+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C710649", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ross Finnie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 356.0, "ContributionID": 710649, "EditedText": "I will come on to that point, because it has been made often. First, I want to pick up on Christine Grahame's point about abattoirs. The difficulty is that, at the moment, we have an excess of abattoir capacity in Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will come on to that point, because it has been made often.

First, I want to pick up on Christine Grahame's point about abattoirs. The difficulty is that, at the moment, we have an excess of abattoir capacity in Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.498304+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C710653", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ross Finnie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 364.0, "ContributionID": 710653, "EditedText": "No, I am really running out of time.To those people who have expended money on planning permissions as part of their applications, I can undertake only to consider applications as sympathetically as possible, but the sums simply do not add up. The Executive wants to recognise the prime importance of our primary producers and make that part of a wider food strategy. We also want to recognise the crucial importance in rural areas of education, social inclusion, health and housing. Although I concur with Murray Tosh's important points about housing and agree that we need to examine the relevant regulations, we have committed a substantial amount of money to partnerships. We have a new strategy for tourism, which is a major issue. I have made it clear that I share concerns about the threat to post offices because of new arrangements for benefit payments. However, if we can hold the Post Office to its written commitment to invest in technology for every post office, including rural post offices, we can prevent a potential disaster. As for the fuel duty escalator, the Chancellor of the Exchequer has been made well aware of the Scottish Executive's concerns about fuel costs. Those representations have placed matters affecting rural communities firmly on the agenda. The Executive has a rural affairs ministry and a rural development committee with powers to look across the spectrum of Government business and to take a positive view. On that basis, I commend the amendment in my name.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I am really running out of time.

To those people who have expended money on planning permissions as part of their applications, I can undertake only to consider applications as sympathetically as possible, but the sums simply do not add up.

The Executive wants to recognise the prime importance of our primary producers and make that part of a wider food strategy. We also want to recognise the crucial importance in rural areas of education, social inclusion, health and housing. Although I concur with Murray Tosh's important points about housing and agree that we need to examine the relevant regulations, we have committed a substantial amount of money to partnerships.

We have a new strategy for tourism, which is a major issue. I have made it clear that I share concerns about the threat to post offices because of new arrangements for benefit payments. However, if we can hold the Post Office to its written commitment to invest in technology for every post office, including rural post offices, we can prevent a potential disaster.

As for the fuel duty escalator, the Chancellor of the Exchequer has been made well aware of the Scottish Executive's concerns about fuel costs. Those representations have placed matters affecting rural communities firmly on the agenda.

The Executive has a rural affairs ministry and a rural development committee with powers to look across the spectrum of Government business and to take a positive view. On that basis, I commend the amendment in my name.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.498304+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2117E79P104C710658", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macdonald, Lewis", "ID": 2117, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lewis Macdonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Lewis Macdonald: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 375.0, "ContributionID": 710658, "EditedText": "Will Richard Lochhead give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Richard Lochhead give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.498304+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710665", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26989, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 389.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 389.0, "ID": 26989, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 390.0, "ContributionID": 710665, "EditedText": "We turn now to the business motion, S1M-247. The text of the motion is in the business bulletin and we have already agreed that it is therefore not necessary for it to be read out again.", "EditedTextHTML": "We turn now to the business motion, S1M-247. The text of the motion is in the business bulletin and we have already agreed that it is therefore not necessary for it to be read out again.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.498304+00:00" }, { "ID": "C710668", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26989, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 389.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 389.0, "ID": 26989, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 394.0, "ContributionID": 710668, "EditedText": "5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business Debate on the subject of S1M-237 Christine Grahame: Borders Rail-Link", "EditedTextHTML": "5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business Debate on the subject of S1M-237 Christine Grahame: Borders Rail-Link

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.498304+00:00" }, { "ID": "C710669", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26989, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 389.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 389.0, "ID": 26989, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 395.0, "ContributionID": 710669, "EditedText": "Thursday 11 November 1999", "EditedTextHTML": "Thursday 11 November 1999

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.498304+00:00" }, { "ID": "C710670", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26989, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 389.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 389.0, "ID": 26989, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 396.0, "ContributionID": 710670, "EditedText": "9.30 am Ministerial Statement and Debate on the Millennium Date Change Problem: A Report on the Readiness of the Scottish Infrastructure followed by Business Motion followed by Parliamentary Bureau motions", "EditedTextHTML": "9.30 am Ministerial Statement and Debate on the Millennium Date Change Problem: A Report on the Readiness of the Scottish Infrastructure followed by Business Motion followed by Parliamentary Bureau motions

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.498304+00:00" }, { "ID": "C710671", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26989, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 389.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 389.0, "ID": 26989, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 397.0, "ContributionID": 710671, "EditedText": "2.30 pm Question Time 3.00 pm Open Question Time followed by, no later than 3.15 pm Debate on The Maximum Number of Judges (Scotland) Order 1999", "EditedTextHTML": "2.30 pm Question Time 3.00 pm Open Question Time followed by, no later than 3.15 pm Debate on The Maximum Number of Judges (Scotland) Order 1999

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.498304+00:00" }, { "ID": "C710676", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26989, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 389.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 389.0, "ID": 26989, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 402.0, "ContributionID": 710676, "EditedText": "2.30 pm Question Time", "EditedTextHTML": "2.30 pm Question Time

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.498304+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710679", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26989, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 389.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 389.0, "ID": 26989, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 405.0, "ContributionID": 710679, "EditedText": "I have no indication of members wishing to speak against the motion, so I will put the question to the chamber. The question is, that business motion S1M-247 be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have no indication of members wishing to speak against the motion, so I will put the question to the chamber. The question is, that business motion S1M-247 be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "C710682", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26989, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 389.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 389.0, "ID": 26989, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 409.0, "ContributionID": 710682, "EditedText": "Meeting adjourned at 12:33.", "EditedTextHTML": "Meeting adjourned at 12:33.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2234E7P20C710684", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Deeds of Conditions", "QuestionHeadingID": 26992, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 414.0, "DisplayOrder": 414.0, "ID": 26992, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Aitken, Bill", "ID": 2234, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bill Aitken", "SpeakerDisplayName": "1. Bill Aitken (Glasgow) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 415.0, "ContributionID": 710684, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what consideration it has given to restricting the terms of deeds of conditions whereby the appointment of a named property manager cannot be made mandatory. (S1O-527) The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice (Mr Jim Wallace): Such matters are being considered by the Scottish Law Commission as part of its work on non-feudal real burdens and title conditions. The commission will submit its final report to Scottish ministers by the end of this year.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what consideration it has given to restricting the terms of deeds of conditions whereby the appointment of a named property manager cannot be made mandatory. (S1O-527) The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice (Mr Jim Wallace): Such matters are being considered by the Scottish Law Commission as part of its work on non-feudal real burdens and title conditions. The commission will submit its final report to Scottish ministers by the end of this year.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2234E7P20C710685", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Deeds of Conditions", "QuestionHeadingID": 26992, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 414.0, "DisplayOrder": 414.0, "ID": 26992, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Aitken, Bill", "ID": 2234, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bill Aitken", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bill Aitken: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 417.0, "ContributionID": 710685, "EditedText": "I am obliged to the minister for his response, but does he agree that it is iniquitous that co-proprietors of a complex for elderly persons should be required to commit themselves to a named factor whose service might be deficient and expensive? Those co-proprietors might be unable to change to a more acceptable property agent.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am obliged to the minister for his response, but does he agree that it is iniquitous that co-proprietors of a complex for elderly persons should be required to commit themselves to a named factor whose service might be deficient and expensive? Those co-proprietors might be unable to change to a more acceptable property agent.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C710686", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Deeds of Conditions", "QuestionHeadingID": 26992, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 414.0, "DisplayOrder": 414.0, "ID": 26992, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 419.0, "ContributionID": 710686, "EditedText": "The Executive is well aware of such concerns, which have been expressed by a number of people. A working group that includes representatives of developers, managers, owners, owner-occupied sheltered housing and other interested parties is preparing a voluntary code of management. We hope that adoption of that will be made a condition of membership by associations that represent managers and developers. That is being consulted on and we await the proposals that will be made by the Scottish Law Commission, which will be in the report that it will submit later this year.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Executive is well aware of such concerns, which have been expressed by a number of people. A working group that includes representatives of developers, managers, owners, owner-occupied sheltered housing and other interested parties is preparing a voluntary code of management. We hope that adoption of that will be made a condition of membership by associations that represent managers and developers. That is being consulted on and we await the proposals that will be made by the Scottish Law Commission, which will be in the report that it will submit later this year.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1762E216P508C710687", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Trident", "QuestionHeadingID": 26993, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 421.0, "DisplayOrder": 421.0, "ID": 26993, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Elder, Dorothy-Grace", "ID": 1762, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder", "SpeakerDisplayName": "2. Dorothy-Grace Elder (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 422.0, "ContributionID": 710687, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it has made or will make representations to Her Majesty's Government regarding the immediate removal of the Trident installation in Scotland. (S1O-495) The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning (Henry McLeish): The Executive has made no such representations and has no plans to do so.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it has made or will make representations to Her Majesty's Government regarding the immediate removal of the Trident installation in Scotland. (S1O-495) The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning (Henry McLeish): The Executive has made no such representations and has no plans to do so.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1770E82P108C710692", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Landfill Sites", "QuestionHeadingID": 26994, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 428.0, "DisplayOrder": 428.0, "ID": 26994, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Thomson, Elaine", "ID": 1770, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Thomson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Elaine Thomson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 433.0, "ContributionID": 710692, "EditedText": "Does the minister intend to have major control over landfill sites that have planning permission, to allay the fears of residents living close to sites such as Tarbothill in my constituency? Residents there are having their homes tested frequently for dangerous landfill gases.", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the minister intend to have major control over landfill sites that have planning permission, to allay the fears of residents living close to sites such as Tarbothill in my constituency? Residents there are having their homes tested frequently for dangerous landfill gases.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C710694", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Scottish Prison Service", "QuestionHeadingID": 26995, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 437.0, "DisplayOrder": 437.0, "ID": 26995, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "4. Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 438.0, "ContributionID": 710694, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive how many time-off-inlieu hours were due to Scottish Prison Service officers as at 1 September 1999, or the latest date for which figures are available. (S1O-511) The Deputy Minister for Justice (Angus MacKay): At 1 October 1999, 101,643 hours were owed to staff, and 27,579 hours were owed by them.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive how many time-off-inlieu hours were due to Scottish Prison Service officers as at 1 September 1999, or the latest date for which figures are available. (S1O-511) The Deputy Minister for Justice (Angus MacKay): At 1 October 1999, 101,643 hours were owed to staff, and 27,579 hours were owed by them.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C710696", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Scottish Prison Service", "QuestionHeadingID": 26995, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 437.0, "DisplayOrder": 437.0, "ID": 26995, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Angus MacKay: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 442.0, "ContributionID": 710696, "EditedText": "The splashing and slashing is in Mr Gallie's question. The position regarding time-off-in-lieu hours in the Scottish Prison Service is that the number of hours owed has fallen by 20 per cent in the past year. Those figures are entirely reasonable and are in keeping with those of any other national public institution.", "EditedTextHTML": "The splashing and slashing is in Mr Gallie's question. The position regarding time-off-in-lieu hours in the Scottish Prison Service is that the number of hours owed has fallen by 20 per cent in the past year. Those figures are entirely reasonable and are in keeping with those of any other national public institution.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C710700", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Breast Cancer", "QuestionHeadingID": 26996, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 448.0, "DisplayOrder": 448.0, "ID": 26996, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 451.0, "ContributionID": 710700, "EditedText": "Tamoxifen is one of several drugs and treatments that are offered to cancer patients. The Scottish Executive is committed to ensuring that all drugs and therapies that are offered are as safe and effective as possible. With regard to the specific study that Mr McMahon asked about, I am happy to look into the matter. I shall give him further details in writing.", "EditedTextHTML": "Tamoxifen is one of several drugs and treatments that are offered to cancer patients. The Scottish Executive is committed to ensuring that all drugs and therapies that are offered are as safe and effective as possible. With regard to the specific study that Mr McMahon asked about, I am happy to look into the matter. I shall give him further details in writing.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2117E79P104C710701", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Pigmeat", "QuestionHeadingID": 26997, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 453.0, "DisplayOrder": 453.0, "ID": 26997, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macdonald, Lewis", "ID": 2117, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lewis Macdonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "6. Lewis Macdonald (Aberdeen Central) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 454.0, "ContributionID": 710701, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what discussions it has had with pigmeat retailers about the labelling of pigmeat products. (S1O-541)", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what discussions it has had with pigmeat retailers about the labelling of pigmeat products. (S1O-541)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C710702", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Pigmeat", "QuestionHeadingID": 26997, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 453.0, "DisplayOrder": 453.0, "ID": 26997, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Rural Affairs (Ross Finnie): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 456.0, "ContributionID": 710702, "EditedText": "As I indicated last week, my department is in consultation with retail and other interests on how best to enforce labelling requirements for foodstuffs, including pigmeat products. Given the high quality and welfare standards that are adhered to by the Scottish pig industry, I hope that that will help the consumer to identify home- produced pigmeat.", "EditedTextHTML": "As I indicated last week, my department is in consultation with retail and other interests on how best to enforce labelling requirements for foodstuffs, including pigmeat products. Given the high quality and welfare standards that are adhered to by the Scottish pig industry, I hope that that will help the consumer to identify home- produced pigmeat.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C710704", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Pigmeat", "QuestionHeadingID": 26997, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 453.0, "DisplayOrder": 453.0, "ID": 26997, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ross Finnie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 460.0, "ContributionID": 710704, "EditedText": "I am happy to give that undertaking. As Mr Macdonald will know, EC directive 91630 sets out the minimum standards for the welfare of pigs. That was voted for by a majority, in 1991. Unfortunately, it allows until 2005 for those standards to be made uniform throughout Europe. At every opportunity, we point out that those standards should be advanced.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am happy to give that undertaking. As Mr Macdonald will know, EC directive 91630 sets out the minimum standards for the welfare of pigs. That was voted for by a majority, in 1991. Unfortunately, it allows until 2005 for those standards to be made uniform throughout Europe. At every opportunity, we point out that those standards should be advanced.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1906E278P355C710706", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Ambulance Service", "QuestionHeadingID": 26998, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 462.0, "DisplayOrder": 462.0, "ID": 26998, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Welsh, Andrew", "ID": 1906, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Angus" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Welsh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Welsh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 465.0, "ContributionID": 710706, "EditedText": "If under-resourcing is causing problems for the ambulance service in meeting existing needs, what extra resources will the minister provide for an acute services review that will centralise services and increase the number of journeys outwith Angus? For major planning changes, we require an environmental impact study. Will the minister introduce a system of ambulance service impact studies for major NHS changes?", "EditedTextHTML": "If under-resourcing is causing problems for the ambulance service in meeting existing needs, what extra resources will the minister provide for an acute services review that will centralise services and increase the number of journeys outwith Angus?

For major planning changes, we require an environmental impact study. Will the minister introduce a system of ambulance service impact studies for major NHS changes?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C710707", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Ambulance Service", "QuestionHeadingID": 26998, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 462.0, "DisplayOrder": 462.0, "ID": 26998, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 467.0, "ContributionID": 710707, "EditedText": "I am pleased that there are now record levels of investment in the health service in Scotland. Over the next few years, that investment will be put to good use when we consider how we can redesign and modernise NHS services throughout Scotland, including those in Tayside. The local acute services review that is taking place there is an important part of that process, and I look forward to its outcome.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am pleased that there are now record levels of investment in the health service in Scotland. Over the next few years, that investment will be put to good use when we consider how we can redesign and modernise NHS services throughout Scotland, including those in Tayside. The local acute services review that is taking place there is an important part of that process, and I look forward to its outcome.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C710709", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Ambulance Service", "QuestionHeadingID": 26998, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 462.0, "DisplayOrder": 462.0, "ID": 26998, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 471.0, "ContributionID": 710709, "EditedText": "I am always happy to examine the future provision of any aspect of services, to ensure that those services are of the highest quality for people throughout Scotland. I stress, however, that where there are questions to be raised about provision in local areas, it is important that that dialogue takes place locally. I urge the local member, if he has concerns, to raise those questions with the local health board.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am always happy to examine the future provision of any aspect of services, to ensure that those services are of the highest quality for people throughout Scotland. I stress, however, that where there are questions to be raised about provision in local areas, it is important that that dialogue takes place locally. I urge the local member, if he has concerns, to raise those questions with the local health board.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C710714", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Stobhill Hospital", "QuestionHeadingID": 27000, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 480.0, "DisplayOrder": 480.0, "ID": 27000, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 483.0, "ContributionID": 710714, "EditedText": "The Scottish Executive does not intend to call for an independent consultant. It is a matter for Greater Glasgow Health Board and North Glasgow University Hospitals NHS Trust to decide on and to commission such design surveys as they deem necessary to assist in the development of the proposed ambulatory care and diagnostic unit at Stobhill hospital.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Scottish Executive does not intend to call for an independent consultant. It is a matter for Greater Glasgow Health Board and North Glasgow University Hospitals NHS Trust to decide on and to commission such design surveys as they deem necessary to assist in the development of the proposed ambulatory care and diagnostic unit at Stobhill hospital.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2159E115P214C710715", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Stobhill Hospital", "QuestionHeadingID": 27000, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 480.0, "DisplayOrder": 480.0, "ID": 27000, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Martin, Paul", "ID": 2159, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Springburn" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Paul Martin", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Paul Martin: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 485.0, "ContributionID": 710715, "EditedText": "Does the minister share my concern that Mr Andy Black, the so-called independent adviser who carried out a design briefing in December, was not in fact independent and that he had tendered for the work to carry out the ACAD proposal at Stobhill hospital?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the minister share my concern that Mr Andy Black, the so-called independent adviser who carried out a design briefing in December, was not in fact independent and that he had tendered for the work to carry out the ACAD proposal at Stobhill hospital?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C710719", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Police Funding", "QuestionHeadingID": 27001, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 489.0, "DisplayOrder": 489.0, "ID": 27001, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 494.0, "ContributionID": 710719, "EditedText": "Many studies conducted over many years have shown that there is no clear correlation between levels of crime and increases or decreases in the size of police forces. Mr Gibson will be aware that, in addition to the sum for the forthcoming year to which I referred, a sum of £4.7 million has been allocated to the police for millennium funding. That will free up budgets for other areas of policing. The Executive continues to pursue a policy of civilianisation and of improving information technology, allowing more police to be freed up for front-line duties.", "EditedTextHTML": "Many studies conducted over many years have shown that there is no clear correlation between levels of crime and increases or decreases in the size of police forces. Mr Gibson will be aware that, in addition to the sum for the forthcoming year to which I referred, a sum of £4.7 million has been allocated to the police for millennium funding. That will free up budgets for other areas of policing. The Executive continues to pursue a policy of civilianisation and of improving information technology, allowing more police to be freed up for front-line duties.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1926E190P479C710725", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "New Opportunities Fund", "QuestionHeadingID": 27003, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 503.0, "DisplayOrder": 503.0, "ID": 27003, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Adam, Brian", "ID": 1926, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Adam", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Brian Adam: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 508.0, "ContributionID": 710725, "EditedText": "Is the minister aware of the concern of the charities involved about the delay in funding? These are three-year programmes, and the robust procedure that she describes could lead to a delay of up to 20 months. Is she not concerned that that funding delay might lead to delays in treatments such as those that have been referred to by other members today?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is the minister aware of the concern of the charities involved about the delay in funding? These are three-year programmes, and the robust procedure that she describes could lead to a delay of up to 20 months. Is she not concerned that that funding delay might lead to delays in treatments such as those that have been referred to by other members today?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "C710738", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Blood Donation", "QuestionHeadingID": 27006, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 530.0, "DisplayOrder": 530.0, "ID": 27006, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 537.0, "ContributionID": 710738, "EditedText": "Congratulations.", "EditedTextHTML": "Congratulations.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710739", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Blood Donation", "QuestionHeadingID": 27006, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 530.0, "DisplayOrder": 530.0, "ID": 27006, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 539.0, "ContributionID": 710739, "EditedText": "Order.", "EditedTextHTML": "Order.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710741", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Blood Donation", "QuestionHeadingID": 27006, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 530.0, "DisplayOrder": 530.0, "ID": 27006, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 543.0, "ContributionID": 710741, "EditedText": "Susan Deacon.", "EditedTextHTML": "Susan Deacon.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C710753", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Pig Industry", "QuestionHeadingID": 27009, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "DisplayOrder": 567.0, "ID": 27009, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Rural Affairs (Ross Finnie): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 570.0, "ContributionID": 710753, "EditedText": "I have already written to local authorities in that vein. In addition, I wrote to my ministerial colleagues with responsibilities for the national health service, the police, the fire service, prisons and education, highlighting the desirability of sourcing local produce. However, Mr Lochhead will understand that while I can make that point and promote it, I cannot interfere with the competitive tendering process.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have already written to local authorities in that vein. In addition, I wrote to my ministerial colleagues with responsibilities for the national health service, the police, the fire service, prisons and education, highlighting the desirability of sourcing local produce. However, Mr Lochhead will understand that while I can make that point and promote it, I cannot interfere with the competitive tendering process.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C710760", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Youth Services", "QuestionHeadingID": 27010, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 580.0, "DisplayOrder": 580.0, "ID": 27010, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Angus MacKay: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 585.0, "ContributionID": 710760, "EditedText": "I am always happy to accept offers to visit projects, providing that my diary permits it.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am always happy to accept offers to visit projects, providing that my diary permits it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C710763", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "School Closures", "QuestionHeadingID": 27011, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 587.0, "DisplayOrder": 587.0, "ID": 27011, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 592.0, "ContributionID": 710763, "EditedText": "Will the minister accept no responsibility, in spite of the fact that in the first three years of the Scottish Parliament the Government will be giving £2.5 billion less to Scottish local authorities than under the last three years of the Conservative Government?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister accept no responsibility, in spite of the fact that in the first three years of the Scottish Parliament the Government will be giving £2.5 billion less to Scottish local authorities than under the last three years of the Conservative Government?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2167E79P155C710764", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "School Closures", "QuestionHeadingID": 27011, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 587.0, "DisplayOrder": 587.0, "ID": 27011, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Peacock, Peter", "ID": 2167, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Peter Peacock", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Peter Peacock: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 594.0, "ContributionID": 710764, "EditedText": "The reality is that an increasing amount of money is flowing towards local authorities for educational purposes. That is why we are seeing the expansion of education provision across most of Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "The reality is that an increasing amount of money is flowing towards local authorities for educational purposes. That is why we are seeing the expansion of education provision across most of Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C710772", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27014, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 612.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27015, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 613.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27016, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 614.0, "DisplayOrder": 614.0, "ID": 27016, "ParentID": 27015 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "1. Mr Alex Salmond (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 615.0, "ContributionID": 710772, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive when the First Minister last met with the Secretary of State for Scotland and what issues they discussed. (S1O-517) The First Minister (Donald Dewar): Yesterday, and, as always, matters of concern.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive when the First Minister last met with the Secretary of State for Scotland and what issues they discussed. (S1O-517) The First Minister (Donald Dewar): Yesterday, and, as always, matters of concern.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C710774", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27014, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 612.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27015, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 613.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27016, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 614.0, "DisplayOrder": 614.0, "ID": 27016, "ParentID": 27015 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 619.0, "ContributionID": 710774, "EditedText": "There were a large number of members of this Parliament down in London voting yesterday. I am sure that none of them was ashamed of that. I suspect that they all approached their task with the same measure of seriousness and in exactly the same way.", "EditedTextHTML": "There were a large number of members of this Parliament down in London voting yesterday. I am sure that none of them was ashamed of that. I suspect that they all approached their task with the same measure of seriousness and in exactly the same way.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C710777", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27014, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 612.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27015, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 613.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27016, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 614.0, "DisplayOrder": 614.0, "ID": 27016, "ParentID": 27015 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 625.0, "ContributionID": 710777, "EditedText": "Does the First Minister regard it as an effective use of the ministerial time of those four members to go down to London to vote for the cuts in incapacity benefit that I have described, instead of attending to their duties in Scotland?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the First Minister regard it as an effective use of the ministerial time of those four members to go down to London to vote for the cuts in incapacity benefit that I have described, instead of attending to their duties in Scotland?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C710778", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27014, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 612.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27015, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 613.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27016, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 614.0, "DisplayOrder": 614.0, "ID": 27016, "ParentID": 27015 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 627.0, "ContributionID": 710778, "EditedText": "I think that I recognised one or two members of the Scottish National party in the corridors of Westminster yesterday. Who voted the right way is a matter of judgment. I remind Mr Salmond and his colleagues that I supported Alistair Darling, when I was a member of the United Kingdom Cabinet, on the need to have an effective and adequate social security system, which ensured that resources went to those who had most need. I voted, consistently, in that way last night. Consistency is sometimes a virtue in politics. I give Mr Salmond that as an original thought.", "EditedTextHTML": "I think that I recognised one or two members of the Scottish National party in the corridors of Westminster yesterday. Who voted the right way is a matter of judgment. I remind Mr Salmond and his colleagues that I supported Alistair Darling, when I was a member of the United Kingdom Cabinet, on the need to have an effective and adequate social security system,

which ensured that resources went to those who had most need. I voted, consistently, in that way last night. Consistency is sometimes a virtue in politics. I give Mr Salmond that as an original thought.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710779", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27014, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 612.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27015, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 613.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27016, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 614.0, "DisplayOrder": 614.0, "ID": 27016, "ParentID": 27015 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 629.0, "ContributionID": 710779, "EditedText": "The First Minister is now in danger of being out of order.", "EditedTextHTML": "The First Minister is now in danger of being out of order.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C710781", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27014, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 612.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27015, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 613.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27016, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 614.0, "DisplayOrder": 614.0, "ID": 27016, "ParentID": 27015 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 633.0, "ContributionID": 710781, "EditedText": "I think that, not for the first time, Alex Salmond is wrong on both points. I was not in Dublin as a head of state; I was there for some extremely constructive and productive talks with the Taoiseach and the President of the Irish Republic. I was glad to be there, and Alex Salmond ought to welcome the fact that I was there. On the second matter, there is an enormous number of improvements in that bill. I believe that, on the whole, it is a good bill, but I do not want to go into the reasons for it because I see that the basilisk eye of the Presiding Officer is upon me. I must counsel Alex Salmond against the arrogant assumption that people who do not vote the same way as he does are definitely, and by definition, wrong.", "EditedTextHTML": "I think that, not for the first time, Alex Salmond is wrong on both points. I was not in Dublin as a head of state; I was there for some extremely constructive and productive talks with the Taoiseach and the President of the Irish Republic. I was glad to be there, and Alex Salmond ought to welcome the fact that I was there.

On the second matter, there is an enormous number of improvements in that bill. I believe that, on the whole, it is a good bill, but I do not want to go into the reasons for it because I see that the basilisk eye of the Presiding Officer is upon me. I must counsel Alex Salmond against the arrogant assumption that people who do not vote the same way as he does are definitely, and by definition, wrong.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C710782", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27014, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 612.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27015, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 613.0, "QuestionHeading": "Law and Order", "QuestionHeadingID": 27017, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 635.0, "DisplayOrder": 635.0, "ID": 27017, "ParentID": 27015 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "2. David McLetchie (Lothians) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 636.0, "ContributionID": 710782, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive—I beg your pardon. Laughter. Today there are so many questions that the Executive deserves to answer. To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will outline its law and order policy priorities. (S1O512)", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive—I beg your pardon. [Laughter.] Today there are so many questions that the Executive deserves to answer. To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will outline its law and order policy priorities. (S1O512)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C710785", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27014, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 612.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27015, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 613.0, "QuestionHeading": "Law and Order", "QuestionHeadingID": 27017, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 635.0, "DisplayOrder": 635.0, "ID": 27017, "ParentID": 27015 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 642.0, "ContributionID": 710785, "EditedText": "I can tell Mr McLetchie that we are, in fact, reallocating £13 million that the Prison Service had not spent in previous years. We are doing so because we are predicting fewer prisoners than were previously estimated. As Mr McLetchie rightly points out, we are redirecting some of that money to other aspects of the justice budget, including the setting up of a drugs enforcement agency, which I hope that he will welcome. I should point out to the member that this year some £215 million is being spent on the Prison Service, compared with an average of £158 million in the five years of the previous Conservative Government.", "EditedTextHTML": "I can tell Mr McLetchie that we are, in fact, reallocating £13 million that the Prison Service had not spent in previous years. We are doing so because we are predicting fewer prisoners than were previously estimated. As Mr McLetchie rightly points out, we are redirecting some of that money to other aspects of the justice budget, including the setting up of a drugs enforcement agency, which I hope that he will welcome.

I should point out to the member that this year some £215 million is being spent on the Prison Service, compared with an average of £158 million in the five years of the previous Conservative Government.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C710787", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27014, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 612.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27015, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 613.0, "QuestionHeading": "Law and Order", "QuestionHeadingID": 27017, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 635.0, "DisplayOrder": 635.0, "ID": 27017, "ParentID": 27015 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 646.0, "ContributionID": 710787, "EditedText": "I am tempted to say, \"Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.\" If Mr McLetchie concentrated more on the facts and the issues, rather than on soundbites, he might get a better understanding of the circumstances.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am tempted to say, \"Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.\" If Mr McLetchie concentrated more on the facts and the issues, rather than on soundbites, he might get a better understanding of the circumstances.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C710790", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27014, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 612.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27015, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 613.0, "QuestionHeading": "Law and Order", "QuestionHeadingID": 27017, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 635.0, "DisplayOrder": 635.0, "ID": 27017, "ParentID": 27015 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Keith Raffan (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 652.0, "ContributionID": 710790, "EditedText": "Will the Deputy First Minister give serious consideration to remarks made earlier today by the governor of Cornton Vale prison, who questioned whether imprisonment was the best way in which to deal with people with addiction problems who commit minor offences? Does he agree that it would be far more sensible and humane—never mind cost-effective—to place those people in treatment centres? Will the Executive consider that alternative seriously?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the Deputy First Minister give serious consideration to remarks made earlier today by the governor of Cornton Vale prison, who questioned whether imprisonment was the best

way in which to deal with people with addiction problems who commit minor offences? Does he agree that it would be far more sensible and humane—never mind cost-effective—to place those people in treatment centres? Will the Executive consider that alternative seriously?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C710791", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27014, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 612.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27015, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 613.0, "QuestionHeading": "Law and Order", "QuestionHeadingID": 27017, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 635.0, "DisplayOrder": 635.0, "ID": 27017, "ParentID": 27015 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 654.0, "ContributionID": 710791, "EditedText": "Mr Raffan may know that a pilot study in drug treatment and testing orders, which are an alternative to custody, has been set up in Glasgow. Our cross-cutting approach to tackling drugs includes not only a drugs enforcement agency, but an emphasis on rehabilitation, education and health. It is important to see the issue in the round, rather than simply to pick out comments for headlines. These are far more complex issues than cheap addresses to the headlines indicate.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Raffan may know that a pilot study in drug treatment and testing orders, which are an alternative to custody, has been set up in Glasgow. Our cross-cutting approach to tackling drugs includes not only a drugs enforcement agency, but an emphasis on rehabilitation, education and health. It is important to see the issue in the round, rather than simply to pick out comments for headlines. These are far more complex issues than cheap addresses to the headlines indicate.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C710793", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27014, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 612.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27015, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 613.0, "QuestionHeading": "Law and Order", "QuestionHeadingID": 27017, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 635.0, "DisplayOrder": 635.0, "ID": 27017, "ParentID": 27015 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 658.0, "ContributionID": 710793, "EditedText": "Clearly, young offenders institutes continue to play an important part in the overall Prison Service. It is also fair to mention that the Cabinet held a strategy session on youth crime earlier this week, in which a range of issues was presented to us. Clearly, while custodial sentences will be necessary in some cases, there is a lot of evidence that non-custodial sentences that involve the community are often far more effective in tackling youth crime and reducing the amount of reoffending.", "EditedTextHTML": "Clearly, young offenders institutes continue to play an important part in the overall Prison Service. It is also fair to mention that the Cabinet held a strategy session on youth crime earlier this week, in which a range of issues was presented to us. Clearly, while custodial sentences will be necessary in some cases, there is a lot of evidence that non-custodial sentences that involve the community are often far more effective in tackling youth crime and reducing the amount of reoffending.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C710794", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27014, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 612.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27015, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 613.0, "QuestionHeading": "Law and Order", "QuestionHeadingID": 27017, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 635.0, "DisplayOrder": 635.0, "ID": 27017, "ParentID": 27015 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 660.0, "ContributionID": 710794, "EditedText": "Will the setting up of the new drugs enforcement agency result in more of those who are involved in the drugs trade being imprisoned? If so, will there be enough prison places for them, given the £13 million cut in Prison Service funding?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the setting up of the new drugs enforcement agency result in more of those who are involved in the drugs trade being imprisoned? If so, will there be enough prison places for them, given the £13 million cut in Prison Service funding?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C710795", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27014, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 612.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27015, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 613.0, "QuestionHeading": "Law and Order", "QuestionHeadingID": 27017, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 635.0, "DisplayOrder": 635.0, "ID": 27017, "ParentID": 27015 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 662.0, "ContributionID": 710795, "EditedText": "The establishment of the new drugs enforcement agency does not mean that there will be more imprisonment. We are trying to cut off the supply of drugs at a high level, which would mean that fewer drugs will get into the community. As I said to Mr Raffan, that is an important part of the strategy. It is also part of a strategy that tries to eliminate drug abuse through health and education.", "EditedTextHTML": "The establishment of the new drugs enforcement agency does not mean that there will be more imprisonment. We are trying to cut off the supply of drugs at a high level, which would mean that fewer drugs will get into the community. As I said to Mr Raffan, that is an important part of the strategy. It is also part of a strategy that tries to eliminate drug abuse through health and education.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2080E130P217C710796", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27014, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 612.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27015, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 613.0, "QuestionHeading": "Joint Working", "QuestionHeadingID": 27018, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 664.0, "DisplayOrder": 664.0, "ID": 27018, "ParentID": 27015 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lamont, Johann", "ID": 2080, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Pollok" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Johann Lamont", "SpeakerDisplayName": "3. Johann Lamont (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 665.0, "ContributionID": 710796, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive how it is promoting joint working by local government, the national health service and Scottish Homes. (S1O-534) The Deputy Minister for Communities (Jackie Baillie): Working together is a key element in achieving better government. In the Executive, the new ministerial committees handling cross-cutting issues are having a significant impact on key priorities. At a local level, community planning is an example of councils working in partnership with other agencies to develop a common vision and improve the lives of the people they serve. The Scottish Executive will be working closely with local government to develop guidance and support for councils across the country.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive how it is promoting joint working by local government, the national health service and Scottish Homes. (S1O-534) The Deputy Minister for Communities (Jackie Baillie): Working together is a key element in achieving better government. In the Executive, the new ministerial committees handling cross-cutting issues are having a significant impact on key priorities.

At a local level, community planning is an example of councils working in partnership with other agencies to develop a common vision and improve the lives of the people they serve. The Scottish Executive will be working closely with local government to develop guidance and support for councils across the country.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2080E130P217C710797", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27014, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 612.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27015, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 613.0, "QuestionHeading": "Joint Working", "QuestionHeadingID": 27018, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 664.0, "DisplayOrder": 664.0, "ID": 27018, "ParentID": 27015 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lamont, Johann", "ID": 2080, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Pollok" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Johann Lamont", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Johann Lamont: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 667.0, "ContributionID": 710797, "EditedText": "I am sure that the minister is aware that there is a great deal of important joint working across the agencies at a local level to deliver a coherent service to the most vulnerable groups in a community through, for example, community care, primary health care and mental health care. Is the minister aware, however, that professionals and voluntary groups report that attempts to work in partnership can be hampered by the separation of budget cycles, accountability lines and priorities at a Scottish level? Through the minister, I ask the Scottish Executive to give high priority to the organisational change that is required at a Scottish level to ensure support for crucial joint working at a local level.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sure that the minister is aware that there is a great deal of important joint working across the agencies at a local level to deliver a coherent service to the most vulnerable groups in a community through, for example, community care, primary health care and mental health care.

Is the minister aware, however, that professionals and voluntary groups report that attempts to work in partnership can be hampered by the separation of budget cycles, accountability lines and priorities at a Scottish level? Through the minister, I ask the Scottish Executive to give high priority to the organisational change that is required at a Scottish level to ensure support for crucial joint working at a local level.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C710805", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27014, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 612.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27015, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 613.0, "QuestionHeading": "Joint Working", "QuestionHeadingID": 27018, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 664.0, "DisplayOrder": 664.0, "ID": 27018, "ParentID": 27015 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 683.0, "ContributionID": 710805, "EditedText": "Does the minister agree that an excellent example of joint working relationships would be to have one budget for the national health service and social work, to ensure that the 1,700 patients who are medically fit for discharge receive the appropriate level of residential care or care in the community?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the minister agree that an excellent example of joint working relationships would be to have one budget for the national health service and social work, to ensure that the 1,700 patients who are medically fit for discharge receive the appropriate level of residential care or care in the community?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C710813", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27014, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 612.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27015, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 613.0, "QuestionHeading": "Joint Working", "QuestionHeadingID": 27018, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 664.0, "DisplayOrder": 664.0, "ID": 27018, "ParentID": 27015 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 699.0, "ContributionID": 710813, "EditedText": "No, it is a related matter. Further to the point of order that was raised by my colleague Mr MacAskill and me yesterday about ministerial statements appearing in the press before they are announced to the Parliament, in the interests of openness and accountability, will you rule that ministers should first make their statements to Parliament and then to the press?", "EditedTextHTML": "No, it is a related matter. Further to the point of order that was raised by my colleague Mr MacAskill and me yesterday about ministerial statements appearing in the press before they are announced to the Parliament, in the interests of openness and accountability, will you rule that ministers should first make their statements to Parliament and then to the press?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710814", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27014, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 612.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27015, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 613.0, "QuestionHeading": "Joint Working", "QuestionHeadingID": 27018, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 664.0, "DisplayOrder": 664.0, "ID": 27018, "ParentID": 27015 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 701.0, "ContributionID": 710814, "EditedText": "Is that the end of the points of order? I received notice of those issues yesterday and, as I have mentioned, in writing from the Conservative party. I have given the matter careful thought and would like to make a considered statement on it. It is not possible for every Executive decision to be announced in Parliament; otherwise, we would do nothing but listen to ministerial statements. It has to be a matter for judgment by the Executive which statements are of sufficient policy significance to be made in Parliament. In the case of the two matters raised yesterday as points of order, and in the letters to me from different members, I have to say that both the policy on road tolls and the creation of the Scottish community investment fund are, in my view, substantial policy questions which should have been announced to Parliament first. I would further add that Executive policy announcements should not in any case be made during closing speeches and debate in the chamber, which are intended to be replies to the actual debates. We are all on a learning curve and I do not wish to sound unduly censorious. Indeed, I have no powers at the moment, under standing orders, to prevent recurrences of what has happened. It is more a question of courtesy, good practice and the observing of the founding principles of the Parliament: openness and accountability. I hope that we will pursue that in future.", "EditedTextHTML": "Is that the end of the points of order? I received notice of those issues yesterday and, as I have mentioned, in writing from the Conservative party. I have given the matter careful thought and would like to make a considered statement on it.

It is not possible for every Executive decision to be announced in Parliament; otherwise, we would do nothing but listen to ministerial statements. It has to be a matter for judgment by the Executive which statements are of sufficient policy significance to be made in Parliament. In the case of the two matters raised yesterday as points of order, and in the letters to me from different members, I have to say that both the policy on road tolls and the creation of the Scottish community investment fund are, in my view, substantial policy questions which should have been announced to Parliament first.

I would further add that Executive policy announcements should not in any case be made during closing speeches and debate in the chamber, which are intended to be replies to the actual debates.

We are all on a learning curve and I do not wish to sound unduly censorious. Indeed, I have no powers at the moment, under standing orders, to prevent recurrences of what has happened. It is more a question of courtesy, good practice and the observing of the founding principles of the Parliament: openness and accountability. I hope that we will pursue that in future.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710820", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 715.0, "ContributionID": 710820, "EditedText": "No. The minister will take questions after the statement, not during it.", "EditedTextHTML": "No. The minister will take questions after the statement, not during it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C710817", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan (Glasgow) (SSP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 709.0, "ContributionID": 710817, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C710830", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Murray Tosh (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 735.0, "ContributionID": 710830, "EditedText": "How will the projects that are under review be implemented? What is the time scale? How will they be funded?", "EditedTextHTML": "How will the projects that are under review be implemented? What is the time scale? How will they be funded?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C710832", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 739.0, "ContributionID": 710832, "EditedText": "I welcome the inclusion of the upgrading of the A77 in the list of projects. Can the minister clarify the time scale for the A77 10-mile dualling and whether that time scale will be adhered to the private finance initiative is not a viable financial option? Furthermore, will she confirm that this project will precede the Glasgow southern orbital project?", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the inclusion of the upgrading of the A77 in the list of projects. Can the minister clarify the time scale for the A77 10-mile dualling and whether that time scale will be adhered to the private finance initiative is not a viable financial option? Furthermore, will she confirm that this project will precede the Glasgow southern orbital project?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710835", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 745.0, "ContributionID": 710835, "EditedText": "With respect, that is not really a question of clarification. We will move on.", "EditedTextHTML": "With respect, that is not really a question of clarification. We will move on.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5295547+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C710842", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 759.0, "ContributionID": 710842, "EditedText": "Will the minister accept my congratulations on at last committing herself to Tory plans for the upgrading of the A77? The road will complement the M77/M8 route that the Tories provided.", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister accept my congratulations on at last committing herself to Tory plans for the upgrading of the A77? The road will complement the M77/M8 route that the Tories provided.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5295547+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1751E163P286C710851", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Craigie, Cathie", "ID": 1751, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Cumbernauld and Kilsyth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Cathie Craigie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Cathie Craigie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 777.0, "ContributionID": 710851, "EditedText": "On a point of order, Presiding Officer. You must have missed the start of my question if you thought that I was asking only for the minister to meet me.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order, Presiding Officer. You must have missed the start of my question if you thought that I was asking only for the minister to meet me.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5295547+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710852", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 779.0, "ContributionID": 710852, "EditedText": "I thought that that was the point of your question.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thought that that was the point of your question.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5295547+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710859", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 793.0, "ContributionID": 710859, "EditedText": "No, you may not.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, you may not.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5295547+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C710867", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Richard Simpson (Ochil) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 809.0, "ContributionID": 710867, "EditedText": "I welcome the appointment of consultants on the Kincardine- Clackmannanshire bridge. Will the minister publish a timetable to indicate when the consultation process will be completed?", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the appointment of consultants on the Kincardine- Clackmannanshire bridge. Will the minister publish a timetable to indicate when the consultation process will be completed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5295547+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C710871", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 817.0, "ContributionID": 710871, "EditedText": "Will the minister insist that Scottish Enterprise publish all the details of the report that allegedly claims that thousands of jobs and an economic bonanza will be created by the building of the M74 extension?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister insist that Scottish Enterprise publish all the details of the report that allegedly claims that thousands of jobs and an economic bonanza will be created by the building of the M74 extension?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5295547+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2056E57P84C710883", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James", "ID": 2056, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "James Douglas-Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Lord James Douglas-Hamilton (Lothians) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 841.0, "ContributionID": 710883, "EditedText": "Can the minister confirm that detailed planning of the A1 dualling between Haddington and Dunbar will now take place, so that construction can go ahead as soon as resources are available?", "EditedTextHTML": "Can the minister confirm that detailed planning of the A1 dualling between Haddington and Dunbar will now take place, so that construction can go ahead as soon as resources are available?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C710891", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Keith Raffan (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 857.0, "ContributionID": 710891, "EditedText": "Can the minister clarify the position on the availability of extra resources for road maintenance, bearing in mind the widespread concern among all local authorities in the Mid Scotland and Fife constituency? For example, roads in Fife will now be renewed every 276 years when they should be renewed every 40 years.", "EditedTextHTML": "Can the minister clarify the position on the availability of extra resources for road maintenance, bearing in mind the widespread concern among all local authorities in the Mid Scotland and Fife constituency? For example, roads in Fife will now be renewed every 276 years when they should be renewed every 40 years.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710893", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 861.0, "ContributionID": 710893, "EditedText": "Thank you all very much. We now come to the debate on the minister's statement.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you all very much. We now come to the debate on the minister's statement.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1973E119P326C710894", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gorrie, Donald", "ID": 1973, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Donald Gorrie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Donald Gorrie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 863.0, "ContributionID": 710894, "EditedText": "On a point of order. It seems absurd that we are about to debate a document that some of us received about 10 minutes ago and that many of us have not seen at all. Would it not be better in future if serious documents such as the \"Strategic Review of the Trunk Road Programme in Scotland\" were discussed in a debate several days after the statement and the questions? We could then all read the document and the debate could be informed with knowledge rather than with speculation.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. It seems absurd that we are about to debate a document that some of us received about 10 minutes ago and that many of us have not seen at all. Would it not be better in future if serious documents such as the \"Strategic Review of the Trunk Road Programme in Scotland\" were discussed in a debate several days after the statement and the questions? We could then all read the document and the debate could be informed with knowledge rather than with speculation.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710895", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 865.0, "ContributionID": 710895, "EditedText": "That is indeed a difficult issue. The Executive is caught either way. If it publishes a document before a debate, it will be criticised because members have not had the document first, whereas even if members have had the document first, they may say that they have not had time to look at it properly. We have to accept that this is not a perfect system. I have tried to keep the questions on the statement short to allow a full debate, but I do not know whether copies of the document are available now—MEMBERS: \"They are available.\" They are available at the back of the chamber— members can thumb through the documents as the debate proceeds. I am sure that Mr MacAskill will give them plenty time to do that—but not longer than 10 minutes.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is indeed a difficult issue. The Executive is caught either way. If it publishes a document before a debate, it will be criticised because members have not had the document first, whereas even if members have had the document first, they may say that they have not had time to look at it properly.

We have to accept that this is not a perfect system. I have tried to keep the questions on the statement short to allow a full debate, but I do not know whether copies of the document are available now—[MEMBERS: \"They are available.\"] They are available at the back of the chamber— members can thumb through the documents as the debate proceeds. I am sure that Mr MacAskill will give them plenty time to do that—but not

longer than 10 minutes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C710896", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 867.0, "ContributionID": 710896, "EditedText": "Further to Mr Gorrie's point of order, Presiding Officer. Would it not be far more sensible to have a statement one week, followed by far less restrictive questioning than we are having now, and a debate the following week? Can we not refer this to the Procedures Committee?", "EditedTextHTML": "Further to Mr Gorrie's point of order, Presiding Officer. Would it not be far more sensible to have a statement one week, followed by far less restrictive questioning than we are having now, and a debate the following week? Can we not refer this to the Procedures Committee?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2223E203P342C710899", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scott, Tavish", "ID": 2223, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Shetland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tavish Scott", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tavish Scott (Shetland) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 874.0, "ContributionID": 710899, "EditedText": "Will Mr MacAskill give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr MacAskill give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2112E192P495C710900", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacAskill, Kenny", "ID": 2112, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenny MacAskill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr MacAskill: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 876.0, "ContributionID": 710900, "EditedText": "I will give way in a minute.Why do some people suggest that new roads are bad? Does that make an old road good? Alternatively, if all roads are bad, should we be digging them up and grassing them over? The proposition that an inanimate object that lacks any consciousness—moral or otherwise—can be good or bad is absurd. Surely what matters is how a new or improved road meets the criteria on which it will be judged. That takes us back to the economic, social and environmental criteria. Let us be quite clear about the nature of the roads under review. Only one new build—the M74 northern extension—is included. The other roads are upgrades and improvements where substantial difficulties and dangers have been identified over the years. They were chosen neither arbitrarily, nor as the result of a call to a road review hotline—Ralph or Clarence; they were selected under a fundamental roads review as part of a strategic and integrated transport policy.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will give way in a minute.

Why do some people suggest that new roads are bad? Does that make an old road good? Alternatively, if all roads are bad, should we be digging them up and grassing them over? The proposition that an inanimate object that lacks any consciousness—moral or otherwise—can be good or bad is absurd. Surely what matters is how a new or improved road meets the criteria on which it will be judged. That takes us back to the economic, social and environmental criteria.

Let us be quite clear about the nature of the roads under review. Only one new build—the M74 northern extension—is included. The other roads are upgrades and improvements where substantial difficulties and dangers have been identified over the years. They were chosen neither arbitrarily, nor as the result of a call to a road review hotline—Ralph or Clarence; they were selected under a fundamental roads review as part of a strategic and integrated transport policy.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2223E203P342C710903", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scott, Tavish", "ID": 2223, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Shetland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tavish Scott", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tavish Scott: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 882.0, "ContributionID": 710903, "EditedText": "On \"Good Morning Scotland\"today, Mr MacAskill said that he wanted to implement the strategic roads review in full. Is that the SNP's position? What is its time scale for implementation?", "EditedTextHTML": "On \"Good Morning Scotland\"

today, Mr MacAskill said that he wanted to implement the strategic roads review in full. Is that the SNP's position? What is its time scale for implementation?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2112E192P495C710904", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacAskill, Kenny", "ID": 2112, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenny MacAskill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr MacAskill: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 884.0, "ContributionID": 710904, "EditedText": "We are not in the Executive, so how can I possibly answer that question? As far as we are concerned, there should be a strategic, integrated policy. The strategic roads review came about because the roads were regarded as necessities in their areas. We believe that they are all necessities; if Mr Scott does not agree, he should tell us which ones he thinks are unnecessary. At least the minister had the guts and the gumption to do that.", "EditedTextHTML": "We are not in the Executive, so how can I possibly answer that question? As far as we are concerned, there should be a strategic, integrated policy. The strategic roads review came about because the roads were regarded as necessities in their areas. We believe that they are all necessities; if Mr Scott does not agree, he should tell us which ones he thinks are unnecessary. At least the minister had the guts and the gumption to do that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C710905", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 886.0, "ContributionID": 710905, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C710907", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 890.0, "ContributionID": 710907, "EditedText": "Thank you. When Mr MacAskill mentioned the M74, he referred to 6,000 jobs that were under threat. What report did he base that figure on?", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you. When Mr MacAskill mentioned the M74, he referred to 6,000 jobs that were under threat. What report did he base that figure on?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C710917", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 911.0, "ContributionID": 710917, "EditedText": "That is unfair. I have accepted a long intervention. I should not have to accept another.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is unfair. I have accepted a long intervention. I should not have to accept another.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1778E91P257C710923", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Eadie, Helen", "ID": 1778, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dunfermline East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Helen Eadie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Helen Eadie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 923.0, "ContributionID": 710923, "EditedText": "On a point of order. Is Mr Tosh prepared to speak only to men in this debate?", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. Is Mr Tosh prepared to speak only to men in this debate?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C710925", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 927.0, "ContributionID": 710925, "EditedText": "At the close of her statement, the minister talked about a package of roads that could be afforded from the resources that were available. To Mr Salmond, I say that the Conservative Government did not fund from tolling any strategic road that was part of a programme, and did not build a motorway and subsequently toll it. The one example that he is trying to angle for was not in the programme, but was put in the programme on the basis of tolling. The strategic programme was to be funded—and was funded— wholly by conventional methods. That is our approach. The question of resources is critical. The Executive has made out that resources are somehow God-given. The resources that are available for roads are the ones that the Executive has made available. Just as it is possible to wind the roads budget down by £100 million, it is also possible, if the Executive really wanted to, to wind it back up by £100 million. I suggest that there might be scope in the enterprise budget to find some leverage to increase the programme. I notice that time is marching on, Presiding Officer, but I hope that I will get some compensation for the interruptions. I conclude by saying that what we heard this afternoon was a classic example of new Labour newspeak. We have heard that less is somehow more, that bad is somehow good, that uncertainty is somehow decision, and that the abdication of strategic decisions to local authorities somehow represents policy decisiveness and direction. The sad and sorry truth is that, in the tenure of her office so far, the minister has been a disaster. She has failed to bring to completion, to fruition, to decision and to announcement something that Scotland has been desperately awaiting for the past two and a half years. She has left all the strategic and critical routes in limbo. She has left them subject to the decision-making processes and resources—which she controls—of local authorities, and to the funding mechanism that she has yet to define and for which she has yet to legislate. The final implication is that the motorist will pay for the whole thing and that the programmes that ran before and could run again will not be allowed to run. She has ignored the economic case that has been made for many of the routes. She has ignored the interests of the remoter rural areas such as Dumfries and Galloway and she has cancelled a route in the north-east. She has done nothing for those areas and she has come to the chamber with a policy that does not link in with an economic policy that promotes social inclusion. By the Government's own standards, her statement is a non-event, a contradiction and a disaster.", "EditedTextHTML": "At the close of her statement, the minister talked about a package of roads that could be afforded from the resources that were available. To Mr Salmond, I say that the Conservative Government did not fund from tolling any strategic road that was part of a programme, and did not build a motorway and subsequently toll it. The one example that he is trying to angle for was not in the programme, but was put in the programme on the basis of tolling. The strategic programme was to be funded—and was funded— wholly by conventional methods. That is our approach.

The question of resources is critical. The Executive has made out that resources are

somehow God-given. The resources that are available for roads are the ones that the Executive has made available. Just as it is possible to wind the roads budget down by £100 million, it is also possible, if the Executive really wanted to, to wind it back up by £100 million. I suggest that there might be scope in the enterprise budget to find some leverage to increase the programme.

I notice that time is marching on, Presiding Officer, but I hope that I will get some compensation for the interruptions. I conclude by saying that what we heard this afternoon was a classic example of new Labour newspeak. We have heard that less is somehow more, that bad is somehow good, that uncertainty is somehow decision, and that the abdication of strategic decisions to local authorities somehow represents policy decisiveness and direction.

The sad and sorry truth is that, in the tenure of her office so far, the minister has been a disaster. She has failed to bring to completion, to fruition, to decision and to announcement something that Scotland has been desperately awaiting for the past two and a half years. She has left all the strategic and critical routes in limbo. She has left them subject to the decision-making processes and resources—which she controls—of local authorities, and to the funding mechanism that she has yet to define and for which she has yet to legislate.

The final implication is that the motorist will pay for the whole thing and that the programmes that ran before and could run again will not be allowed to run. She has ignored the economic case that has been made for many of the routes. She has ignored the interests of the remoter rural areas such as Dumfries and Galloway and she has cancelled a route in the north-east. She has done nothing for those areas and she has come to the chamber with a policy that does not link in with an economic policy that promotes social inclusion. By the Government's own standards, her statement is a non-event, a contradiction and a disaster.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C710926", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 929.0, "ContributionID": 710926, "EditedText": "I shall now open up the debate, which will end just before 5 o'clock. I ask members to keep their contributions strictly to four minutes. I call Tavish Scott.", "EditedTextHTML": "I shall now open up the debate, which will end just before 5 o'clock. I ask members to keep their contributions strictly to four minutes. I call Tavish Scott.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2223E203P342C710927", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scott, Tavish", "ID": 2223, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Shetland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tavish Scott", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tavish Scott (Shetland) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 932.0, "ContributionID": 710927, "EditedText": "Murray Tosh's speech was entertaining, but I think that someone must have slipped something into his water before he started because he was much more animated than he usually is. It is clear that the Tories care about roads, but it is also clear that they care about nothing else to do with transport. Scotland needs a strategic and sustainable transport infrastructure and that involves roads. Roads are not the be-all and end- all of a strategic and sustainable infrastructure, but it is right to consider roads as part of an integrated network. Today's announcement of further investment in Scotland's strategic road network, although limited, is welcome. I particularly welcome the investment in the Mallaig road in the light of the members' business debate that was held recently on that subject. I am sure that all who have campaigned on that issue will also welcome the announcement. Choices in government are about priorities. When the Conservatives were in government, the UK and Scotland had a roads policy and nothing else. We have moved away from that and on to the new politics, which involves considering all forms of transport as part of an integrated structure. In my view, and in the view of the Liberal Democrats, that is the right way to approach the problem of moving people and businesses around the country. It is unfortunate that Murray Tosh does not share that view. The far right has an ideological obsession with the market, the market and nothing but the market. When buses and trains were deregulated and privatised, we saw the results of that obsession. Last night, to remind myself of previous debates, I re-read the Official Report for 16 September 1999—a Conservative Opposition day on which there was a debate on transport—just before I watched \"Newsnight Scotland\". Mr Tosh is, apparently, a politician to watch—but not on television, to judge by last night's performance.", "EditedTextHTML": "Murray Tosh's speech was entertaining, but I think that someone must have slipped something into his water before he started because he was much more animated than he usually is.

It is clear that the Tories care about roads, but it is also clear that they care about nothing else to do with transport. Scotland needs a strategic and sustainable transport infrastructure and that involves roads. Roads are not the be-all and end- all of a strategic and sustainable infrastructure, but it is right to consider roads as part of an integrated network.

Today's announcement of further investment in Scotland's strategic road network, although limited, is welcome. I particularly welcome the investment in the Mallaig road in the light of the members' business debate that was held recently on that subject. I am sure that all who have campaigned on that issue will also welcome the announcement.

Choices in government are about priorities. When the Conservatives were in government, the UK and Scotland had a roads policy and nothing else. We have moved away from that and on to the new politics, which involves considering all forms of transport as part of an integrated structure. In my view, and in the view of the Liberal Democrats, that is the right way to approach the problem of moving people and businesses around the country. It is unfortunate that Murray Tosh does not share that view. The far right has an ideological obsession with the market, the market and nothing but the market. When buses and trains were deregulated and privatised, we saw the results of that obsession.

Last night, to remind myself of previous debates, I re-read the Official Report for 16 September 1999—a Conservative Opposition day on which there was a debate on transport—just before I watched \"Newsnight Scotland\". Mr Tosh is, apparently, a politician to watch—but not on television, to judge by last night's performance.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2223E203P342C710931", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scott, Tavish", "ID": 2223, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Shetland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tavish Scott", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tavish Scott: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 940.0, "ContributionID": 710931, "EditedText": "If Mr MacAskill answers the questions, I will be delighted to give way.", "EditedTextHTML": "If Mr MacAskill answers the questions, I will be delighted to give way.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2112E192P495C710932", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacAskill, Kenny", "ID": 2112, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenny MacAskill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr MacAskill: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 942.0, "ContributionID": 710932, "EditedText": "Does not Mr Scott accept that the Scottish motorist, the Scottish consumer and Scottish society are paying backdoor taxation through the level of excise duty put on them by this Government? That is taxation.", "EditedTextHTML": "Does not Mr Scott accept that the Scottish motorist, the Scottish consumer and Scottish society are paying backdoor taxation through the level of excise duty put on them by this Government? That is taxation.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2223E203P342C710933", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scott, Tavish", "ID": 2223, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Shetland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tavish Scott", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tavish Scott: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 944.0, "ContributionID": 710933, "EditedText": "It is taxation, but the point about the fuel tax escalator is that the money that comes from it goes into the general taxation pot at Westminster and is then apportioned to priority areas as the Government sees fit. The priority area that has been identified in Scotland—as set out in the partnership document—is an integrated transport system. The SNP does not want that, the Tories do not want that, but this partnership Government does. That is the right approach for the future of Scotland. This is a devolved Parliament in the context of the money that is available to us. The people voted for it and rejected independence. Let us deal constructively with what we have: a transport policy with a significant roads element, not the fantasy fairyland that we have heard about from the Opposition.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is taxation, but the point about the fuel tax escalator is that the money that comes from it goes into the general taxation pot at Westminster and is then apportioned to priority areas as the Government sees fit. The priority area that has been identified in Scotland—as set out in the partnership document—is an integrated transport system. The SNP does not want that, the Tories do not want that, but this partnership Government does. That is the right approach for the future of Scotland.

This is a devolved Parliament in the context of the money that is available to us. The people voted for it and rejected independence. Let us deal constructively with what we have: a transport policy with a significant roads element, not the fantasy fairyland that we have heard about from the Opposition.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1823E145P193C710934", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jamieson, Margaret", "ID": 1823, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Kilmarnock and Loudoun" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Jamieson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Margaret Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 947.0, "ContributionID": 710934, "EditedText": "As an Ayrshire native, I welcome the minister's statement, particularly on the A77.", "EditedTextHTML": "As an Ayrshire native, I welcome the minister's statement, particularly on the A77.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1823E145P193C710936", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jamieson, Margaret", "ID": 1823, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Kilmarnock and Loudoun" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Jamieson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Margaret Jamieson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 951.0, "ContributionID": 710936, "EditedText": "Murray never said so. We are still waiting.", "EditedTextHTML": "Murray never said so. We are still waiting.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1823E145P193C710938", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jamieson, Margaret", "ID": 1823, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Kilmarnock and Loudoun" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Jamieson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Margaret Jamieson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 955.0, "ContributionID": 710938, "EditedText": "The doomsayers have tried to talk down today's announcement, but I welcome the fact that the whole distance from Malletsheugh to the Kilmarnock bypass will be completed. Sarah Boyack is the latest in a long line of ministers who have been lobbied about that appalling and dangerous road. Some of them are members of this Parliament: Malcolm Chisholm, Henry McLeish and Lord James Douglas- Hamilton. No doubt many will want to take credit for the good news for Ayrshire today. In recent days, many leaders of the campaign have claimed their pre-eminence in the press, although their leadership was so far ahead of the real workers that they were out of sight. The real architects of the now to be upgraded A77 have been the people who live alongside the road. They have lived with the daily tragedies of the road and each accident has redoubled their efforts to make the road safe. Alongside them, I credit East Ayrshire Council, and before it, Kilmarnock and Loudoun District Council. I also credit local parliamentarians Willy McKelvey and Des Browne, who have given their voices to the rightful demands that the carnage must stop. I also give great credit to the Kilmarnock Standard and its editor, Alan Woodison, who is here today. The paper has continued to promote its killer road campaign and must also share in the plaudits. Today we should stop and give thought to all those whose lives have been blighted by the A77: the dead, the injured and their families who have received the feared phone call or visit from the police. Their pain can never be repaired. The minister's statement does much to ensure that fewer people will join that list. There is another side to the welcome news to upgrade the A77. Ayrshire remains an unemployment black spot. The Ayrshire local authorities have been fighting the great problem of inadequate infrastructure in one of the last major centres of population that is not directly connected to a motorway network. The economic development teams can now go out and sell the county to business and to manufacturing. My constituency of Kilmarnock and Loudoun can be marketed as the safe gateway to the new Ayrshire. There are great skills in Ayrshire and quality education facilities. There is wonderful tourist potential in our Burns country. There is a marvellous quality of life. All are positive selling points to market the area to potential investors. Now the final piece is in place and we can look forward to a positive future and to the provision of quality, sustainable jobs for my constituents. Now we have a future.", "EditedTextHTML": "The doomsayers have tried to talk down today's announcement, but I welcome the fact that the whole distance from Malletsheugh to the Kilmarnock bypass will be completed. Sarah Boyack is the latest in a long line of ministers who have been lobbied about that appalling and dangerous road. Some of them are members of this Parliament: Malcolm Chisholm, Henry McLeish and Lord James Douglas- Hamilton. No doubt many will want to take credit for the good news for Ayrshire today. In recent days, many leaders of the campaign have claimed their pre-eminence in the press, although their leadership was so far ahead of the real workers that they were out of sight.

The real architects of the now to be upgraded A77 have been the people who live alongside the road. They have lived with the daily tragedies of the road and each accident has redoubled their efforts to make the road safe. Alongside them, I credit East Ayrshire Council, and before it, Kilmarnock and Loudoun District Council. I also credit local parliamentarians Willy McKelvey and Des Browne, who have given their voices to the rightful demands that the carnage must stop. I also give great credit to the Kilmarnock Standard and its editor, Alan Woodison, who is here today. The paper has continued to promote its killer road campaign and must also share in the plaudits.

Today we should stop and give thought to all those whose lives have been blighted by the A77: the dead, the injured and their families who have received the feared phone call or visit from the police. Their pain can never be repaired. The minister's statement does much to ensure that fewer people will join that list.

There is another side to the welcome news to upgrade the A77. Ayrshire remains an unemployment black spot. The Ayrshire local authorities have been fighting the great problem of inadequate infrastructure in one of the last major centres of population that is not directly connected to a motorway network. The economic development teams can now go out and sell the county to business and to manufacturing.

My constituency of Kilmarnock and Loudoun can be marketed as the safe gateway to the new Ayrshire. There are great skills in Ayrshire and quality education facilities. There is wonderful tourist potential in our Burns country. There is a marvellous quality of life. All are positive selling points to market the area to potential investors. Now the final piece is in place and we can look forward to a positive future and to the provision of quality, sustainable jobs for my constituents. Now we have a future.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2010E221P512C710939", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Paterson, Gil", "ID": 2010, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Gil Paterson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Gil Paterson (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 958.0, "ContributionID": 710939, "EditedText": "I declare an interest as, if the M74 extension goes ahead, it will have an impact on a business that I own on the south side of Glasgow. I have heard promises today—promises to look into, promises to examine and promises to continue studies. Promises to do anything constructive, however, have been thinly scattered. The review took two and a half years: that is 30 months in which roads projects in Scotland have been on ice—two and a half years of straining to produce a vehicle with no wheels. It is still on the drawing board and the best that the minister can come up with is to announce that she will be commissioning so-called multi-modal studies or urging councils to do so. Surely all the studying and considering should have been done as part of the review. If not, what have we been waiting for? What has the Executive been doing? The so-called motorway, the M8, should connect Scotland's two major cities—the hubs of the Scottish economy, which contain more than half the nation's population. We should be able to drive quickly and easily from one city to another. That is not to say that we should not be encouraging better public transport links between the cities, but doing so does not always assist those who live or work along the M8 corridor or provide an infrastructure foundation on which to develop the economy. The motorway network in Britain was born 40 years ago yet the Scottish network is still in labour. The whole nation is suffering the pains. This thinking suggests that someone is desperate for an MOT. Forty years later, we do not need another study, multi-modal or otherwise, to tell us what is obvious. A small, progressive nation entering the 21st century should have its main arteries clear. It should have a motorway linking its two major cities. The other missing link in Scotland's motorway network is the A80 between Stepps and Haggs. Is that the revolutionary new concept for which London is waiting—a \"motorway\" with two sets of traffic lights? The route from all points north to all points south via Glasgow should be something more than a main road through several towns. That was the intention when the motorway network was proposed, but still we wait for yet another study. Why are these links missing? They are not new roads but upgrades of current routes to an acceptable standard. Could it be that the minister is afraid to tell us that she cannot get enough petrol money from the chancellor because he needs it to fill his own tank? We have already paid enough to merit a motorway system of our own, even if it is 40 years overdue. Since Labour took the driving seat at the Treasury, pump prices have increased by 25 per cent. Every time we buy a gallon of fuel, £3 goes to the Treasury. Looking at the state of the roads and public transport, we are entitled to ask if that money ever returns to Scotland. Contrast that to the situation in Alaska. When I visited there last year, fuel cost 99 cents—60p—a gallon. Every man, woman and child in Alaska gets an oil premium of $1,500 a year to use in whatever way they want. Alaska discovered oil and its people got richer. Scotland discovered oil and we get fleeced. Do not tell me that Scotland cannot afford a motorway network—we have already paid for it through the nose. Do not hide behind another review. Do not talk Scotland's aspirations down—we should be on the fast track, not in the slow lane.", "EditedTextHTML": "I declare an interest as, if the M74 extension goes ahead, it will have an impact on a business that I own on the south side of Glasgow.

I have heard promises today—promises to look into, promises to examine and promises to continue studies. Promises to do anything constructive, however, have been thinly scattered. The review took two and a half years: that is 30 months in which roads projects in Scotland have been on ice—two and a half years of straining to produce a vehicle with no wheels. It is still on the drawing board and the best that the minister can come up with is to announce that she will be commissioning so-called multi-modal studies or urging councils to do so.

Surely all the studying and considering should have been done as part of the review. If not, what have we been waiting for? What has the Executive been doing? The so-called motorway, the M8, should connect Scotland's two major cities—the hubs of the Scottish economy, which contain more than half the nation's population. We should be able to drive quickly and easily from one city to another. That is not to say that we should not be encouraging better public transport links between the cities, but doing so does not always assist those who live or work along the M8 corridor or provide an infrastructure foundation on which to develop the economy. The motorway network in Britain was born 40 years ago yet the Scottish network is still in labour. The whole nation is suffering the pains.

This thinking suggests that someone is desperate for an MOT. Forty years later, we do not need another study, multi-modal or otherwise, to tell us what is obvious. A small, progressive nation entering the 21st century should have its main arteries clear. It should have a motorway linking its two major cities.

The other missing link in Scotland's motorway network is the A80 between Stepps and Haggs. Is that the revolutionary new concept for which London is waiting—a \"motorway\" with two sets of traffic lights? The route from all points north to all points south via Glasgow should be something more than a main road through several towns. That was the intention when the motorway network was proposed, but still we wait for yet another study.

Why are these links missing? They are not new roads but upgrades of current routes to an acceptable standard. Could it be that the minister is afraid to tell us that she cannot get enough petrol money from the chancellor because he needs it to fill his own tank? We have already paid enough to merit a motorway system of our own, even if it is 40 years overdue.

Since Labour took the driving seat at the Treasury, pump prices have increased by 25 per cent. Every time we buy a gallon of fuel, £3 goes to the Treasury. Looking at the state of the roads and public transport, we are entitled to ask if that money ever returns to Scotland.

Contrast that to the situation in Alaska. When I visited there last year, fuel cost 99 cents—60p—a gallon. Every man, woman and child in Alaska gets an oil premium of $1,500 a year to use in whatever way they want. Alaska discovered oil and its people got richer. Scotland discovered oil and we get fleeced. Do not tell me that Scotland cannot afford a motorway network—we have already paid for it through the nose. Do not hide behind another review. Do not talk Scotland's aspirations down—we should be on the fast track, not in the slow lane.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1970E66P288C710940", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNulty, Des", "ID": 1970, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Clydebank and Milngavie" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Des McNulty", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Des McNulty (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 961.0, "ContributionID": 710940, "EditedText": "I welcome the minister's statement, particularly the announcement of the five schemes that will now proceed. I welcome also those elements in the statement that highlighted integration between the strategic roads policy and the broader policies on environmental protection, on tackling congestion and on dealing with some of the difficult issues raised by increased levels of traffic for people in Scotland. We deserve an honest debate on those issues, but I am not sure that we have had one so far from the Opposition parties. Murray Tosh generated a great deal of heat and noise. I compliment him primarily on his capacity to invent the new Conservatives, who are naturally not responsible for the deficiencies of the past. The Tories cut investment in roads from £247 million in 1994-95 to £156 million in their final year in office, yet Murray Tosh presents himself as the spokesperson for the pro-roads lobby. As Malcolm Chisholm pointed out, the forward programme was cut by 70 per cent in 1996—70 per cent, Murray.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the minister's statement, particularly the announcement of the five schemes that will now proceed. I welcome also those elements in the statement that highlighted integration between the strategic roads policy and the broader policies on environmental protection, on tackling congestion and on dealing with some of the difficult issues raised by increased levels of traffic for people in Scotland.

We deserve an honest debate on those issues, but I am not sure that we have had one so far from the Opposition parties. Murray Tosh generated a great deal of heat and noise. I compliment him primarily on his capacity to invent the new Conservatives, who are naturally not responsible for the deficiencies of the past. The Tories cut investment in roads from £247 million in 1994-95 to £156 million in their final year in office, yet Murray Tosh presents himself as the spokesperson for the pro-roads lobby. As Malcolm Chisholm pointed out, the forward programme was cut by 70 per cent in 1996—70 per cent, Murray.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1970E66P288C710944", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNulty, Des", "ID": 1970, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Clydebank and Milngavie" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Des McNulty", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Des McNulty: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 969.0, "ContributionID": 710944, "EditedText": "No.Murray's party reduced expenditure on public transport to zero. It did little or nothing to tackle congestion during its 18 years in office; indeed, those 18 years generated the serious transport problems that we have today. At least Murray indicated that hard choices have to be made. Kenny MacAskill's view is the classic SNP position: a road for every town and village in Scotland. If someone wants a road, Kenny will provide it. Wherever people are, every priority can be met. He does not even need Andrew Wilson's calculator—£1 billion can be found to meet everyone's needs. Is not that easy politics— something for everyone? The money can just be handed over, because the SNP simply ignores budgetary constraints.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

Murray's party reduced expenditure on public transport to zero. It did little or nothing to tackle congestion during its 18 years in office; indeed, those 18 years generated the serious transport problems that we have today.

At least Murray indicated that hard choices have to be made. Kenny MacAskill's view is the classic SNP position: a road for every town and village in Scotland. If someone wants a road, Kenny will provide it. Wherever people are, every priority can be met. He does not even need Andrew Wilson's calculator—£1 billion can be found to meet everyone's needs. Is not that easy politics— something for everyone? The money can just be handed over, because the SNP simply ignores budgetary constraints.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C710945", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 971.0, "ContributionID": 710945, "EditedText": "The minister has announced a reduction in the roads programme. Were she to invest £700 million over seven years, at a cost of £100 million a year, that would equal the budget increases that were achieved under the Conservative Government. Indeed, the increase was often greater than £100 million. Why is that impossible now?", "EditedTextHTML": "The minister has announced a reduction in the roads programme. Were she to invest £700 million over seven years, at a cost of £100 million a year, that would equal the budget increases that were achieved under the Conservative Government. Indeed, the increase was often greater than £100 million. Why is that impossible now?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2112E192P495C710949", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacAskill, Kenny", "ID": 2112, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenny MacAskill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr MacAskill: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 981.0, "ContributionID": 710949, "EditedText": "Is it a good thing that the A8000 is not being progressed?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is it a good thing that the A8000 is not being progressed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1888E265P358C710951", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morgan, Alasdair", "ID": 1888, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Galloway and Upper Nithsdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morgan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alasdair Morgan (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 985.0, "ContributionID": 710951, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C710957", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 998.0, "ContributionID": 710957, "EditedText": "I call John Young to wind up for the Scottish Conservatives.", "EditedTextHTML": "I call John Young to wind up for the Scottish Conservatives.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C710965", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1015.0, "ContributionID": 710965, "EditedText": "That was a full minute over, Mr Young.", "EditedTextHTML": "That was a full minute over, Mr Young.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C710970", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1027.0, "ContributionID": 710970, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1888E265P358C710972", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morgan, Alasdair", "ID": 1888, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Galloway and Upper Nithsdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morgan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alasdair Morgan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1031.0, "ContributionID": 710972, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1878E208P502C710978", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Dr Winnie", "ID": 1878, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Winnie Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Winnie Ewing (Highlands and Islands) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1043.0, "ContributionID": 710978, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C710984", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1055.0, "ContributionID": 710984, "EditedText": "On a point of order. Presiding Officer, I listened very carefully to your rulings earlier today, and you specifically addressed the question of introducing new information in closing speeches. The minister has just uttered the words \"tolling new roads\", which certainly were not in the initial statement. That is the first time that those words have appeared in this debate.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. Presiding Officer, I listened very carefully to your rulings earlier today, and you specifically addressed the question of introducing new information in closing speeches. The minister has just uttered the words \"tolling new roads\", which certainly were not in the initial statement. That is the first time that those words have appeared in this debate.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "C710991", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Lead Committees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27020, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1067.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1067.0, "ID": 27020, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1069.0, "ContributionID": 710991, "EditedText": "That the Parliament agrees the following designations of committees: the Justice and Home Affairs Committee to be the lead committee in the consideration of the Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc. (Scotland) Bill; the Justice and Home Affairs Committee to be the lead committee in the consideration of the Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill and that the Bill should also be considered by the Health and Community Care Committee; the Social and Inclusion, Housing and Voluntary Sector Committee and the Local Government Committee to report to the Justice and Home Affairs Committee on the Abolition of Poindings and Warrant Sales Bill; and the Rural Affairs Committee to be the lead committee in the consideration of the Plant Health (Scotland) Amendment (No. 2) Order 1999 (SSI 1999/129) and that the Order should also be considered by the European Committee.—Mr McCabe.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament agrees the following designations of committees: the Justice and Home Affairs Committee to be the lead committee in the consideration of the Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc. (Scotland) Bill; the Justice and Home Affairs Committee to be the lead committee in the consideration of the Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill and that the Bill should also be considered by the Health and Community Care Committee; the Social and Inclusion, Housing and Voluntary Sector Committee and the Local Government Committee to report to the Justice and Home Affairs Committee on the Abolition of Poindings and Warrant Sales Bill; and the Rural Affairs Committee to be the lead committee in the consideration of the Plant Health (Scotland) Amendment (No. 2) Order 1999 (SSI 1999/129) and that the Order should also be considered by the European Committee.—[Mr McCabe.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C710994", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Amnesic Shellfish Poisoning", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27021, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1070.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1070.0, "ID": 27021, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bruce Crawford (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1073.0, "ContributionID": 710994, "EditedText": "On a point of order. I am sorry, but we cannot hear a word back here.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. I am sorry, but we cannot hear a word back here.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711019", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27022, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1077.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1077.0, "ID": 27022, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1115.0, "ContributionID": 711019, "EditedText": "The fifth question, that motion S1M-245, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, on the approval of a statutory instrument, be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "The fifth question, that motion S1M-245, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, on the approval of a statutory instrument, be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "C710999", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27022, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1077.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1077.0, "ID": 27022, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1085.0, "ContributionID": 710999, "EditedText": "FOR Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)AGAINST Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)(LD)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)

AGAINST

Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)
(LD)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711005", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27022, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1077.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1077.0, "ID": 27022, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1095.0, "ContributionID": 711005, "EditedText": "FOR Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)(LD)Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)AGAINST Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)
(LD)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)

AGAINST

Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711007", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27022, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1077.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1077.0, "ID": 27022, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1098.0, "ContributionID": 711007, "EditedText": "Amendment agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711010", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27022, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1077.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1077.0, "ID": 27022, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1103.0, "ContributionID": 711010, "EditedText": "We will have a division. Members who wish to support the motion as amended should press yes.", "EditedTextHTML": "We will have a division. Members who wish to support the motion as amended should press yes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711011", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27022, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1077.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1077.0, "ID": 27022, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1105.0, "ContributionID": 711011, "EditedText": "FOR Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)(LD)Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)AGAINST Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)
(LD)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)

AGAINST

Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711012", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27022, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1077.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1077.0, "ID": 27022, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1106.0, "ContributionID": 711012, "EditedText": "The result of the division is as follows: For 71, Against 17, Abstentions 0.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result of the division is as follows: For 71, Against 17, Abstentions 0.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711016", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27022, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1077.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1077.0, "ID": 27022, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1111.0, "ContributionID": 711016, "EditedText": "The fourth question is, that motion S1M-243, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, on the designation of lead committees, be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "The fourth question is, that motion S1M-243, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, on the designation of lead committees, be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711017", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27022, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1077.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1077.0, "ID": 27022, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1113.0, "ContributionID": 711017, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C711028", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliamentary Elections", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27023, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1119.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1119.0, "ID": 27023, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1131.0, "ContributionID": 711028, "EditedText": "Five members have indicated a wish to speak. All will be called if remarks are kept to three minutes.", "EditedTextHTML": "Five members have indicated a wish to speak. All will be called if remarks are kept to three minutes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C711031", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliamentary Elections", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27023, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1119.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1119.0, "ID": 27023, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie (Lothians) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1140.0, "ContributionID": 711031, "EditedText": "I am happy to endorse the comments that have been made so far. Like others who have spoken, I was the victim, if you like, of the incompetent management of the count at Meadowbank. I take the returning officer to task, as the conduct of the count was his responsibility. Like Fiona Hyslop, I am concerned about the flow of information about this discrepancy between the returning officer and the secretary of state. Why was there such a gap? Was it in any way related to the fact that the same gentleman was going to be responsible for the European Parliament count during the intervening period? The most complacent attitude that has come out of this issue is the one that says, \"Well, it doesn't matter as it wouldn't have made any difference to the result.\" I know that many members who would prefer not to see me in this chamber will be disappointed—I should take that as some comfort—but, as others have said, that is not the principle. In a democracy, it is not just the votes that are cast for the winners that count; those that are cast for the losers also count. The right to elect a Government is not the essence of a democracy; the right to throw one out is. The most important right in a democracy is the right to dissent and to have that dissent properly recorded at the ballot box. I am disappointed to find, as Lord James said, that there is no statutory mechanism to order a recount. Could the secretary of state petition the Court of Session under the nobile officium? Where there is a lacuna in the law, that avenue might be available to him to redress this crime against natural justice—as far as people in Edinburgh West are concerned. I ask the minister to consult the Executive's legal advisers and to encourage the secretary of state to do so. That may be a way out of this impasse. If I have some sympathy for those who were responsible for the conduct of these counts it is because I think that it was a major error to hold the elections for the councils and the Parliament on the same day. That major error of judgment was committed by the then secretary of state, Mr Donald Dewar, who should be held to account for it. I sincerely hope that we will not compound that error in future elections and that elections to our councils, under whatever system this Parliament finally decides, will be held separately, on a day when local government issues can be fairly addressed and when all votes, however cast, under whichever system, can be accurately recorded. I support Lord James's motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am happy to endorse the comments that have been made so far. Like others who have spoken, I was the victim, if you like, of the incompetent management of the count at Meadowbank. I take the returning officer to task, as the conduct of the count was his responsibility.

Like Fiona Hyslop, I am concerned about the flow of information about this discrepancy between the returning officer and the secretary of state. Why was there such a gap? Was it in any way related to the fact that the same gentleman was going to be responsible for the European Parliament count during the intervening period?

The most complacent attitude that has come out of this issue is the one that says, \"Well, it doesn't matter as it wouldn't have made any difference to the result.\" I know that many members who would prefer not to see me in this chamber will be disappointed—I should take that as some comfort—but, as others have said, that is not the principle.

In a democracy, it is not just the votes that are cast for the winners that count; those that are cast for the losers also count. The right to elect a Government is not the essence of a democracy; the right to throw one out is. The most important right in a democracy is the right to dissent and to have that dissent properly recorded at the ballot box.

I am disappointed to find, as Lord James said, that there is no statutory mechanism to order a recount. Could the secretary of state petition the Court of Session under the nobile officium? Where there is a lacuna in the law, that avenue might be available to him to redress this crime against natural justice—as far as people in Edinburgh West are concerned. I ask the minister to consult the Executive's legal advisers and to encourage the secretary of state to do so. That may be a way out of this impasse.

If I have some sympathy for those who were responsible for the conduct of these counts it is because I think that it was a major error to hold the elections for the councils and the Parliament on the same day. That major error of judgment was committed by the then secretary of state, Mr Donald Dewar, who should be held to account for it. I sincerely hope that we will not compound that error in future elections and that elections to our councils, under whatever system this Parliament finally decides, will be held separately, on a day when local government issues can be fairly addressed and when all votes, however cast, under whichever system, can be accurately recorded. I support Lord James's motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1973E119P326C711033", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliamentary Elections", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27023, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1119.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1119.0, "ID": 27023, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gorrie, Donald", "ID": 1973, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Donald Gorrie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Donald Gorrie (Central Scotland) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1146.0, "ContributionID": 711033, "EditedText": "It is good that Lord James has raised this debate, because—as others have said—the vote is fundamental to democracy and if votes are not counted, that makes a mockery of the whole process. I have one or two points that have not so far been raised. In fairness to the returning officer fraternity, they warned strongly that problems would arise as a result of having the elections and the counting on the same day. I recollect that either my colleagues or I raised in the House of Commons the matter of not being able to have a recount. The establishment argument centred on the fact that the list votes would be counted in a number of different areas. It was not envisaged that thousands of votes would be lost, but if there was a close-run thing, the prospect of recounting in six or 10 different places was deemed so horrific that it just would not be done. That is not very satisfactory, but I assure Lord James that the matter was of concern and was raised in the House of Commons. I am a sort of nut on voting systems in general, so I know that Lord James has a strong record of close contests. I have won 15 elections and lost eight, so I have quite a lot of experience both ways. We must do these things better in future and in our consideration of voting methods for local government elections we must bear in mind disasters of this sort. The sooner we can experiment in better methods of electronic voting, the better. If I am a bit incoherent, it is because the voting system in the House of Commons led to our voting at 1.15 this morning.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is good that Lord James has raised this debate, because—as others have said—the vote is fundamental to democracy and if votes are not counted, that makes a mockery of the whole process.

I have one or two points that have not so far been raised. In fairness to the returning officer fraternity, they warned strongly that problems would arise as a result of having the elections and the counting on the same day.

I recollect that either my colleagues or I raised in the House of Commons the matter of not being able to have a recount. The establishment argument centred on the fact that the list votes would be counted in a number of different areas. It was not envisaged that thousands of votes would be lost, but if there was a close-run thing, the prospect of recounting in six or 10 different places was deemed so horrific that it just would not be done. That is not very satisfactory, but I assure Lord James that the matter was of concern and was raised in the House of Commons.

I am a sort of nut on voting systems in general, so I know that Lord James has a strong record of close contests. I have won 15 elections and lost eight, so I have quite a lot of experience both ways. We must do these things better in future and in our consideration of voting methods for local government elections we must bear in mind disasters of this sort. The sooner we can experiment in better methods of electronic voting, the better. If I am a bit incoherent, it is because the voting system in the House of Commons led to our voting at 1.15 this morning.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C711036", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliamentary Elections", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27023, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1119.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1119.0, "ID": 27023, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Angus MacKay: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1153.0, "ContributionID": 711036, "EditedText": "Thank you. These are important issues; there is no doubt about that. If votes go missing, that is a matter of concern. I remind the few members who are left in the chamber that parliamentary elections—including elections to this Parliament—are a reserved matter, so we do not have ministerial responsibility for them. I recognise, however, that concerns have been raised. It is proper and right that members should raise them. I am sure that the first words most of us uttered after our returning officer declared that we were elected were words of thanks to the returning officer and his staff for the work that was done in delivering the election. Those are not simply customary platitudes. We can rightly say that we rely on a relatively small but dedicated band of people who, time and again, put in a tremendous amount of work and effort to ensure the continuation of the democratic process. It is only right that we should take this opportunity to pay tribute to the achievement of the returning officers throughout Scotland for the work they did on 6 May. While we recognise that it was achieved only as a result of great sacrifice— as was said, there is no doubt that count arrangements were under great strain—it is important that we do not overlook the task that officials were asked to perform on that evening. It is to their credit that Edinburgh is the only place where a major discrepancy arose. As I am sure members are aware, electoral legislation is framed in such a way as to place statutory responsibility for the conduct of an election with the returning officer. The legislation provides that an election or a return to Parliament can be challenged only in the courts. Ministers are rightly kept out of the process. The returning officer in Edinburgh has already investigated what went wrong on 6 May and has proposed a number of changes to the practices that were in effect on that date. Many of the changes were in place for the elections to the European Parliament—which has also been mentioned—and which I am pleased to say passed without incident, despite their being proportional representation elections. Members will also have seen in recent press coverage that the returning officer has now agreed with his council that an independent inquiry should be set up to examine what further lessons can be learnt.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you. These are important issues; there is no doubt about that. If votes go missing, that is a matter of concern.

I remind the few members who are left in the chamber that parliamentary elections—including elections to this Parliament—are a reserved matter, so we do not have ministerial responsibility for them. I recognise, however, that concerns have been raised. It is proper and right that members should raise them.

I am sure that the first words most of us uttered after our returning officer declared that we were elected were words of thanks to the returning officer and his staff for the work that was done in delivering the election. Those are not simply customary platitudes. We can rightly say that we rely on a relatively small but dedicated band of people who, time and again, put in a tremendous amount of work and effort to ensure the continuation of the democratic process.

It is only right that we should take this opportunity to pay tribute to the achievement of the returning officers throughout Scotland for the work they did on 6 May. While we recognise that it was achieved only as a result of great sacrifice— as was said, there is no doubt that count

arrangements were under great strain—it is important that we do not overlook the task that officials were asked to perform on that evening. It is to their credit that Edinburgh is the only place where a major discrepancy arose.

As I am sure members are aware, electoral legislation is framed in such a way as to place statutory responsibility for the conduct of an election with the returning officer. The legislation provides that an election or a return to Parliament can be challenged only in the courts. Ministers are rightly kept out of the process. The returning officer in Edinburgh has already investigated what went wrong on 6 May and has proposed a number of changes to the practices that were in effect on that date. Many of the changes were in place for the elections to the European Parliament—which has also been mentioned—and which I am pleased to say passed without incident, despite their being proportional representation elections. Members will also have seen in recent press coverage that the returning officer has now agreed with his council that an independent inquiry should be set up to examine what further lessons can be learnt.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C711038", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliamentary Elections", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27023, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1119.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1119.0, "ID": 27023, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Angus MacKay: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1157.0, "ContributionID": 711038, "EditedText": "I will come to the bulk of those matters later. If members feel sufficiently strongly about the report from City of Edinburgh Council, or about any report from the secretary of state, they are at liberty to raise those issues here in Parliament and to have them discussed if that is merited. Members will be aware that, after an election count, ballot papers are sealed up in sacks and deposited with the sheriff clerk by the returning officer. As I understand it, a court order is required to reopen the sacks and such an order can be granted only as a result of an election petition or a prosecution. Those provisions are set out in the Scottish Parliament (Elections etc.) Order 1999, which was made by the secretary of state under section 12 of the Scotland Act 1998. The order does not empower the secretary of state to have the ballot papers recounted. I also understand that under that order the time for submitting an election petition has now passed. It would appear, therefore, that there is no way the ballot papers can be recounted, but that is for others to confirm on the basis of their own legal advice, on the basis of this debate and on the basis of any other information that might come to light.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will come to the bulk of those matters later. If members feel sufficiently strongly about the report from City of Edinburgh Council, or about any report from the secretary of state, they are at liberty to raise those issues here in Parliament and to have them discussed if that is merited.

Members will be aware that, after an election count, ballot papers are sealed up in sacks and deposited with the sheriff clerk by the returning officer. As I understand it, a court order is required to reopen the sacks and such an order can be granted only as a result of an election petition or a prosecution. Those provisions are set out in the Scottish Parliament (Elections etc.) Order 1999, which was made by the secretary of state under section 12 of the Scotland Act 1998. The order does not empower the secretary of state to have the ballot papers recounted.

I also understand that under that order the time for submitting an election petition has now passed. It would appear, therefore, that there is no way the ballot papers can be recounted, but that is for others to confirm on the basis of their own legal advice, on the basis of this debate and on the basis of any other information that might come to light.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C711042", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliamentary Elections", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27023, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1119.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1119.0, "ID": 27023, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Angus MacKay: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1165.0, "ContributionID": 711042, "EditedText": "After the debate is concluded, we will draw it to the attention of the secretary of state and the City of Edinburgh Council, who will take a close interest in the subject of this discussion. The notion that different elections should be held on different days to prevent such circumstances arising in the future has been mentioned. There is some way to go in advancing that argument before it can be proved that it would help to deal with the sort of problems that were experienced on 6 May. In the past, elections for national Parliament and local government have taken place on the same day. Although the Scottish elections were proportional representation elections, which made them slightly different, the votes were counted on two separate days. That was the case in Edinburgh and throughout most of the rest of Scotland, so I do not think that having the elections on the same day could cause problems with the count. However, that is a matter for the reviews to examine.", "EditedTextHTML": "After the debate is concluded, we will draw it to the attention of the secretary of state and the City of Edinburgh Council, who will take a close interest in the subject of this discussion.

The notion that different elections should be held on different days to prevent such circumstances arising in the future has been mentioned. There is some way to go in advancing that argument before it can be proved that it would help to deal with the sort of problems that were experienced on 6 May.

In the past, elections for national Parliament and local government have taken place on the same day. Although the Scottish elections were proportional representation elections, which made them slightly different, the votes were counted on two separate days. That was the case in Edinburgh and throughout most of the rest of Scotland, so I do not think that having the elections on the same day could cause problems with the count. However, that is a matter for the reviews to examine.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C711044", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliamentary Elections", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27023, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1119.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1119.0, "ID": 27023, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Angus MacKay: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1169.0, "ContributionID": 711044, "EditedText": "I do not want to speculate on the reasons for the way in which the European Parliament made its electoral arrangements. If that is the case, it will come out in any future review. The anticipated difficulties that were highlighted before the elections took place were, by and large, focused on the difficulty of explaining to electors how they were expected to use their ballot papers to vote, accommodating the volume of electors through different parts of polling stations and finding sufficient space in polling stations to accommodate all the ballot boxes. Several criticisms were raised in advance of the elections, but most of them did not—I cannot recall any that did—relate to the conduct of counting the ballot papers. If I am wrong, I am happy to accept that, but I am not aware that there were any further problems.", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not want to speculate on the reasons for the way in which the European Parliament made its electoral arrangements. If that is the case, it will come out in any future review.

The anticipated difficulties that were highlighted before the elections took place were, by and large, focused on the difficulty of explaining to electors how they were expected to use their ballot papers to vote, accommodating the volume of electors through different parts of polling stations and finding sufficient space in polling stations to accommodate all the ballot boxes. Several criticisms were raised in advance of the elections, but most of them did not—I cannot recall any that did—relate to the conduct of counting the ballot papers. If I am wrong, I am happy to accept that, but I am not aware that there were any further problems.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2056E57P84C711047", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliamentary Elections", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27023, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1119.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1119.0, "ID": 27023, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James", "ID": 2056, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "James Douglas-Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Lord James Douglas-Hamilton: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1175.0, "ContributionID": 711047, "EditedText": "Is the minister aware that we were informed that all local authority ballot boxes had to be checked on the day of the election to ensure that parliamentary votes had not been deposited in the local authority ballot boxes? That procedure places additional pressure on those who are conducting the voting and the count.", "EditedTextHTML": "Is the minister aware that we were informed that all local authority ballot boxes had to be checked on the day of the election to ensure that parliamentary votes had not been deposited in the local authority ballot boxes? That procedure places additional pressure on those who are conducting the voting and the count.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1821E295P538C711049", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliamentary Elections", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27023, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1119.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1119.0, "ID": 27023, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Mrs Margaret", "ID": 1821, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Moray" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Margaret Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1179.0, "ContributionID": 711049, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C711050", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliamentary Elections", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27023, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1119.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1119.0, "ID": 27023, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Angus MacKay: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1181.0, "ContributionID": 711050, "EditedText": "I will not give way again as I have done so often enough already. To conclude, I echo the concerns about the elections last May that have been expressed throughout the chamber. I think that those concerns are legitimate. However, I am sure that, between them, the returning officers and the secretary of state will thoroughly examine what went wrong and that lessons will be learnt in time for the next elections to this Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will not give way again as I have done so often enough already.

To conclude, I echo the concerns about the elections last May that have been expressed throughout the chamber. I think that those concerns are legitimate. However, I am sure that, between them, the returning officers and the secretary of state will thoroughly examine what went wrong and that lessons will be learnt in time for the next elections to this Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1783E59P270C710802", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27014, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 612.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27015, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 613.0, "QuestionHeading": "Joint Working", "QuestionHeadingID": 27018, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 664.0, "DisplayOrder": 664.0, "ID": 27018, "ParentID": 27015 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Baillie, Jackie", "ID": 1783, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumbarton" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Jackie Baillie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Jackie Baillie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 677.0, "ContributionID": 710802, "EditedText": "I give the member that assurance and take his suggestion further. We also want to engage with the many voluntary organisations that work with women.", "EditedTextHTML": "I give the member that assurance and take his suggestion further. We also want to engage with the many voluntary organisations that work with women.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:13:41.2269066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1783E59P270C710806", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27014, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 612.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27015, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 613.0, "QuestionHeading": "Joint Working", "QuestionHeadingID": 27018, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 664.0, "DisplayOrder": 664.0, "ID": 27018, "ParentID": 27015 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Baillie, Jackie", "ID": 1783, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumbarton" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Jackie Baillie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Jackie Baillie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 685.0, "ContributionID": 710806, "EditedText": "As I said in my original answer to Johann Lamont, \"Modernising Community Care\" is about looking at pooled budgets and joint commissioning. The health ministers will be taking that agenda forward.", "EditedTextHTML": "As I said in my original answer to Johann Lamont, \"Modernising Community Care\" is about looking at pooled budgets and joint commissioning. The health ministers will be taking that agenda forward.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:13:41.2269066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C710727", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Ninewells Hospital", "QuestionHeadingID": 27004, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 512.0, "DisplayOrder": 512.0, "ID": 27004, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "13. Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 513.0, "ContributionID": 710727, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will make a statement on the future of the neurosurgical unit at Ninewells hospital, Dundee. (S1O-528)", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will make a statement on the future of the neurosurgical unit at Ninewells hospital, Dundee. (S1O-528)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:12:28.4701587+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C710865", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fergus Ewing (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 805.0, "ContributionID": 710865, "EditedText": "Does the minister agree that her statement that the Arisiag to Kinsadel section of the Mallaig road is \"the last piece of single trunk road in Britain\"is incorrect? The last piece will be the section from Arisaig to Loch Nan Uamh. What is the cost of the Arisaig to Kinsadel section? When is the estimated completion date for that section?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the minister agree that her statement that the Arisiag to Kinsadel section of the Mallaig road is

\"the last piece of single trunk road in Britain\"

is incorrect? The last piece will be the section from Arisaig to Loch Nan Uamh. What is the cost of the Arisaig to Kinsadel section? When is the estimated completion date for that section?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:00:40.809978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C710578", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fergus Ewing (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 196.0, "ContributionID": 710578, "EditedText": "The Highlands and Islands of Scotland cover a land mass that is larger than either Belgium or Denmark. Despite making Herculean efforts, some of us in that area are unable to forget Margaret Thatcher. She decided on one occasion to canvass in the Highlands and Islands during a political campaign. After the experience, she said that she had visited the whole of the Highlands, and had had a marvellous day. If I may be so bold, she did not have an acutely developed sense of irony. But the point is made that the problems of the Highlands and Islands were not appreciated during those wilderness years; nor are they appreciated in the years of her successor—and, indeed, her new hero—Mr Blair. The gravest problem facing the Highlands and Islands today is, in my view, the fuel duty escalator. I was pleased to hear that that has been recognised by Ross Finnie. After having made numerous points about the damaging effect of the fuel duty escalator, which is having such a grievous effect on Scotland's economy and jobs, Ross Finnie said that he recognised the deep sense of feeling that exists. I agree with that. I was also pleased to note that Sarah Boyack stated recently that she recognises that public transport is not available in many parts of rural Scotland and that the car is the only way to travel. The car is, of course, a necessity, not a luxury, especially in the Highlands and Islands. The effect of the fuel duty escalator covers virtually every walk of life, for individuals and businesses alike. Earlier I mentioned Tom Buncle, who is the chief executive of the Scottish Tourist Board. He spoke out against the escalator. In Inverness, when the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee visited, Iain Robertson of Highlands and Islands Enterprise said that the fuel duty escalator was prejudicing the economy of the Highlands and Islands. I hope that John Home Robertson, from whom we might hear later, will say whether he accepts Iain Robertson's suggestion that the fuel duty tax that is raised in extreme rural areas in the Highlands and Islands could be paid back and invested in public transport provision. That was a specific proposal, which I am offering the Executive. I see George Lyon nodding, which is unusual for him, so presumably the Liberal Democrats agree, but does the Labour party agree that that idea should be taken forward? I hope that the minister will address that. My constituent Donald Watt's business was sacrificed by Mr Blair's fuel duty policy, and we lost his jobs in Aviemore. I have spoken to many hauliers throughout the Highlands and Islands who have told me that, if the escalator is applied next spring, their businesses will fold. I have spoken to many people, including a couple from the Cabrach who are both on low incomes and require two cars to travel to and from work. Those people told me that Mrs Thatcher imposed a poll tax on Scotland and that the poll tax was the same for millionaires and crofters; however, in the Highlands and Islands, we have to pay higher petrol prices than Tony Blair's chums, the Confederation of British Industry bosses. Furthermore, we have to pay higher petrol tax, which means that the fuel duty escalator is simply Labour's Highland poll tax. Scotland does not want just quango bosses such as Tom Buncle and Iain Robertson, who are constrained from speaking out in public as they are not allowed to hold party political views, to object to the fuel duty escalator; the country wants the Labour party to vote against the policy. We are all fed up with the spectacle of Labour MSPs looking down at their desks when the SNP tells the truth about Scotland. The fuel duty escalator is a ligature that is strangling Scotland's economy, and the Highlands will be the first part of the country to die of asphyxiation.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Highlands and Islands of Scotland cover a land mass that is larger than either Belgium or Denmark. Despite making Herculean efforts, some of us in that area are unable to forget Margaret Thatcher. She decided on one occasion to canvass in the Highlands and Islands during a political campaign. After the experience, she said that she had visited the whole of the Highlands, and had had a marvellous day. If I may be so bold, she did not have an acutely developed sense of irony. But the point is made that the problems of the Highlands and Islands were not appreciated during those wilderness years; nor are they appreciated in the years of her successor—and, indeed, her new hero—Mr Blair.

The gravest problem facing the Highlands and Islands today is, in my view, the fuel duty escalator. I was pleased to hear that that has been recognised by Ross Finnie. After having made numerous points about the damaging effect of the fuel duty escalator, which is having such a grievous effect on Scotland's economy and jobs, Ross Finnie said that he recognised the deep sense of feeling that exists. I agree with that. I was also pleased to note that Sarah Boyack stated recently that she recognises that public transport is not available in many parts of rural Scotland and that the car is the only way to travel. The car is, of course, a necessity, not a luxury, especially in the Highlands and Islands.

The effect of the fuel duty escalator covers virtually every walk of life, for individuals and

businesses alike. Earlier I mentioned Tom Buncle, who is the chief executive of the Scottish Tourist Board. He spoke out against the escalator. In Inverness, when the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee visited, Iain Robertson of Highlands and Islands Enterprise said that the fuel duty escalator was prejudicing the economy of the Highlands and Islands.

I hope that John Home Robertson, from whom we might hear later, will say whether he accepts Iain Robertson's suggestion that the fuel duty tax that is raised in extreme rural areas in the Highlands and Islands could be paid back and invested in public transport provision. That was a specific proposal, which I am offering the Executive. I see George Lyon nodding, which is unusual for him, so presumably the Liberal Democrats agree, but does the Labour party agree that that idea should be taken forward? I hope that the minister will address that.

My constituent Donald Watt's business was sacrificed by Mr Blair's fuel duty policy, and we lost his jobs in Aviemore. I have spoken to many hauliers throughout the Highlands and Islands who have told me that, if the escalator is applied next spring, their businesses will fold.

I have spoken to many people, including a couple from the Cabrach who are both on low incomes and require two cars to travel to and from work. Those people told me that Mrs Thatcher imposed a poll tax on Scotland and that the poll tax was the same for millionaires and crofters; however, in the Highlands and Islands, we have to pay higher petrol prices than Tony Blair's chums, the Confederation of British Industry bosses. Furthermore, we have to pay higher petrol tax, which means that the fuel duty escalator is simply Labour's Highland poll tax.

Scotland does not want just quango bosses such as Tom Buncle and Iain Robertson, who are constrained from speaking out in public as they are not allowed to hold party political views, to object to the fuel duty escalator; the country wants the Labour party to vote against the policy. We are all fed up with the spectacle of Labour MSPs looking down at their desks when the SNP tells the truth about Scotland. The fuel duty escalator is a ligature that is strangling Scotland's economy, and the Highlands will be the first part of the country to die of asphyxiation.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:00:18.3299743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C710603", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fergus Ewing rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 254.0, "ContributionID": 710603, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:00:18.3299743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C710601", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fergus Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 250.0, "ContributionID": 710601, "EditedText": "Will Rhoda Grant give way? Will she engage in debate?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Rhoda Grant give way? Will she engage in debate?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:00:18.3299743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C710858", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 791.0, "ContributionID": 710858, "EditedText": "May I compliment the minister on the decision on road improvements?", "EditedTextHTML": "May I compliment the minister on the decision on road improvements?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:14:54.5772891+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2110E214P424C710869", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gibson, Kenneth", "ID": 2110, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenneth Gibson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Kenneth Gibson (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 813.0, "ContributionID": 710869, "EditedText": "When will the multi-modal study of the transport corridors covered by the M8 and M80 report? What criteria will be used to select the independent panel of academics to oversee the work?", "EditedTextHTML": "When will the multi-modal study of the transport corridors covered by the M8 and M80 report? What criteria will be used to select the independent panel of academics to oversee the work?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:14:54.5772891+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C711039", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliamentary Elections", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27023, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1119.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1119.0, "ID": 27023, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fergus Ewing (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1159.0, "ContributionID": 711039, "EditedText": "Pursuant to that point, and taking up Mr McLetchie's suggestion, have the minister's legal advisers considered the possibility of petitioning the powers of the Court of Session under the nobile officium? In that petition, the Electoral Reform Society might be invited to supervise a recount of the votes. Perhaps some other mechanism could be used to remove this stain from the first Scottish parliamentary general election.", "EditedTextHTML": "Pursuant to that point, and taking up Mr McLetchie's suggestion, have the minister's legal advisers considered the possibility of petitioning the powers of the Court of Session under the nobile officium? In that petition, the Electoral Reform Society might be invited to supervise a recount of the votes. Perhaps some other mechanism could be used to remove this stain from the first Scottish parliamentary general election.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:00:40.809978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C710580", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fergus Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 201.0, "ContributionID": 710580, "EditedText": "I have a copy of the speech here.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have a copy of the speech here.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:00:18.3299743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C710888", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 851.0, "ContributionID": 710888, "EditedText": "It will have to satisfy the relevant planning criteria.", "EditedTextHTML": "It will have to satisfy the relevant planning criteria.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:14.3101891+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C710892", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 859.0, "ContributionID": 710892, "EditedText": "There is a long backlog of maintenance. The significance of the comprehensive spending review programme money is demonstrated by the additional £58 million over the next three years. That will enable us to catch up with some of that maintenance. We have to prioritise on the grounds of the efficiency of the road network and its safety. That catching up is what we are doing now.", "EditedTextHTML": "There is a long backlog of maintenance. The significance of the comprehensive spending review programme money is demonstrated by the additional £58 million over the next three years. That will enable us to catch up with some of that maintenance. We have to prioritise on the grounds of the efficiency of the road network and its safety. That catching up is what we are doing now.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:14.3101891+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C710968", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1023.0, "ContributionID": 710968, "EditedText": "Are the Tories not winding up? The Presiding Officer: They have done so.", "EditedTextHTML": "Are the Tories not winding up? The Presiding Officer: They have done so.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:14.3101891+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C710977", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1041.0, "ContributionID": 710977, "EditedText": "Absolutely. The M80 and the M8—", "EditedTextHTML": "Absolutely. The M80 and the M8—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:14.3101891+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C710981", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1049.0, "ContributionID": 710981, "EditedText": "No, thank you.The last point that I want to make—", "EditedTextHTML": "No, thank you.

The last point that I want to make—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:14.3101891+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C710983", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1053.0, "ContributionID": 710983, "EditedText": "No, I am about to wind up.I want to talk about the issue of road user charging, which has been mentioned by many members. There has been an extensive consultation process. I have toured the length and breadth of the country, talking to a variety of interest groups, from the business community, to local authorities, to individuals. We have discussed the opportunities and I have made it clear that we will not introduce trunk road tolling or motorway tolling as part of our transport legislation. I will come back to the Parliament with our proposals for local road user charging—that will be taken forward by the local authorities—and on the issue of workplace parking levies. We have an approach that will give us new revenue to invest in transport. We will consider the issues of additionality, transparency and hypothecation, to ensure that people can see where the money is going. It will go back into our transport investment. A question was asked about the M74. We have taken a responsible approach. It is a key link and it is important that we get it right. In asking Glasgow City Council and South Lanarkshire Council to work with the neighbouring authorities, we are recognising the importance of the route. There are several options available to the councils. We have not discussed existing roads legislation—the New Roads and Streetworks Act 1991, which enables tolling on new roads. There are a variety of options. The key thing is that the councils involved take the approach that they find to be the most relevant. We are committed to ensuring that the investment and the roads that are identified in the strategic roads review will take place. I commend the roads programme to Parliament. It is a credible programme, which will improve economic investment in Scotland. The points that have been made have been helpful and interesting and it has been a constructive debate. The business community has expressed concerns. We want to ensure that those concerns are fully reflected in what we do; hence the roads programme that we have announced today. It is a coherent programme that links into our integrated transport strategy. It is about getting the best out of our roads network, and it is about promoting public transport. Buses need motorways as much as cars need motorways. Our integrated approach must ensure that we look at all those options for transport. That is why we will take that programme forward over the next few years, with the money that we have identified in our budget.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I am about to wind up.

I want to talk about the issue of road user charging, which has been mentioned by many members. There has been an extensive consultation process. I have toured the length and breadth of the country, talking to a variety of interest groups, from the business community, to local authorities, to individuals. We have discussed the opportunities and I have made it clear that we will not introduce trunk road tolling or motorway tolling as part of our transport legislation. I will come back to the Parliament with our proposals for local road user charging—that will be taken forward by the local authorities—and on the issue of workplace parking levies.

We have an approach that will give us new revenue to invest in transport. We will consider the issues of additionality, transparency and hypothecation, to ensure that people can see where the money is going. It will go back into our transport investment.

A question was asked about the M74. We have taken a responsible approach. It is a key link and it is important that we get it right. In asking Glasgow City Council and South Lanarkshire Council to work with the neighbouring authorities, we are recognising the importance of the route. There are several options available to the councils. We have

not discussed existing roads legislation—the New Roads and Streetworks Act 1991, which enables tolling on new roads. There are a variety of options. The key thing is that the councils involved take the approach that they find to be the most relevant. We are committed to ensuring that the investment and the roads that are identified in the strategic roads review will take place.

I commend the roads programme to Parliament. It is a credible programme, which will improve economic investment in Scotland. The points that have been made have been helpful and interesting and it has been a constructive debate.

The business community has expressed concerns. We want to ensure that those concerns are fully reflected in what we do; hence the roads programme that we have announced today. It is a coherent programme that links into our integrated transport strategy. It is about getting the best out of our roads network, and it is about promoting public transport. Buses need motorways as much as cars need motorways.

Our integrated approach must ensure that we look at all those options for transport. That is why we will take that programme forward over the next few years, with the money that we have identified in our budget.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:14.3101891+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C710824", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 723.0, "ContributionID": 710824, "EditedText": "Fife Council, the City of Edinburgh Council, West Lothian Council and the other authorities in the area have already done a great deal of work. They have been considering options for improving public transport and traffic flow across the Forth estuary crossings. That work has included extensive surveys, which have been supported by the Scottish Executive. I am looking forward to taking forward the options that the local authorities and the Executive have been working on.", "EditedTextHTML": "Fife Council, the City of Edinburgh Council, West Lothian Council and the other authorities in the area have already done a great deal of work. They have been considering options for improving public transport and traffic flow across the Forth estuary crossings. That work has included extensive surveys, which have been supported by the Scottish Executive. I am looking forward to taking forward the options that the local authorities and the Executive have been working on.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:08.9207112+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C710839", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 753.0, "ContributionID": 710839, "EditedText": "The strategic roads review has covered the key issues of route action plans and measures to tackle safety problems. All the schemes that have not been approved today will go into the pot for consideration under the appropriate local mechanisms. There are options to improve route safety without implementing the initial schemes proposed in the strategic roads review.", "EditedTextHTML": "The strategic roads review has covered the key issues of route action plans and measures to tackle safety problems. All the schemes that have not been approved today will go into the pot for consideration under the appropriate local mechanisms. There are options to improve route safety without implementing the initial schemes proposed in the strategic roads review.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:08.9207112+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C710857", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 789.0, "ContributionID": 710857, "EditedText": "As I announced today, we are taking further the proposal to develop the route. I will have to report back with a detailed time scale, which will depend on considering the options for funding the route. That will progress from today.", "EditedTextHTML": "As I announced today, we are taking further the proposal to develop the route. I will have to report back with a detailed time scale, which will depend on considering the options for funding the route. That will progress from today.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:08.9207112+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C710864", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 803.0, "ContributionID": 710864, "EditedText": "The scheme analysis includes alternative ways in which to analyse and deal with safety issues. The key point is that we seek to repair and maintain the roads. That is why the strategic roads review is significant—it is about maintaining as well as extending the network.", "EditedTextHTML": "The scheme analysis includes alternative ways in which to analyse and deal with safety issues. The key point is that we seek to repair and maintain the roads. That is why the strategic roads review is significant—it is about maintaining as well as extending the network.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:08.9207112+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C710870", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 815.0, "ContributionID": 710870, "EditedText": "I will report further on that matter later.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will report further on that matter later.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:08.9207112+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2180E179P471C710656", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lochhead, Richard", "ID": 2180, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Lochhead", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Richard Lochhead: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 371.0, "ContributionID": 710656, "EditedText": "The member's point is well made. I certainly agree with him. There is currently a threat hanging over hundreds of jobs at RAF Buchan in Boddam outside Peterhead. The people there, the local council and others involved in the campaign, have no clue what the Executive is doing to help them. All there has been is one sentence in The Press and Journal from Jim Wallace, saying that the Executive will make a case on their behalf.To illustrate the problem, I asked the Executive a written question: \"To ask the Scottish Executive what action it has taken to make the case for the retention of RAF Buchan, to whom the case was put and when it was made.\" The reply from the Executive was:\"The Scottish Executive is in regular contact with the Ministry of Defence on a wide range of issues including the consultation on the future of RAF Buchan.\"—Official Report, Written Answers, 26 October 1999; Vol 3, p 12. So no one knows what is happening there.", "EditedTextHTML": "The member's point is well made. I certainly agree with him.

There is currently a threat hanging over hundreds of jobs at RAF Buchan in Boddam outside Peterhead. The people there, the local council and others involved in the campaign, have no clue what the Executive is doing to help them. All there has been is one sentence in The Press and Journal from Jim Wallace, saying that the

Executive will make a case on their behalf.

To illustrate the problem, I asked the Executive a written question:

\"To ask the Scottish Executive what action it has taken to make the case for the retention of RAF Buchan, to whom the case was put and when it was made.\"

The reply from the Executive was:

\"The Scottish Executive is in regular contact with the Ministry of Defence on a wide range of issues including the consultation on the future of RAF Buchan.\"—[Official Report, Written Answers, 26 October 1999; Vol 3, p 12.]

So no one knows what is happening there.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:20.9827029+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2180E179P471C710660", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lochhead, Richard", "ID": 2180, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Lochhead", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Richard Lochhead: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 379.0, "ContributionID": 710660, "EditedText": "I will give way very briefly if that is okay, Presiding Officer.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will give way very briefly if that is okay, Presiding Officer.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:20.9827029+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1860E111P160C710604", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Grant, Rhoda", "ID": 1860, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Rhoda Grant", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Rhoda Grant: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 256.0, "ContributionID": 710604, "EditedText": "Members of the Executive are addressing the problems and we should congratulate rather than criticise them. If we are to criticise, we must propose good alternatives.", "EditedTextHTML": "Members of the Executive are addressing the problems and we should congratulate rather than criticise them. If we are to criticise, we must propose good alternatives.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:00:34.116328+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1860E111P160C710600", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Grant, Rhoda", "ID": 1860, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Rhoda Grant", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Rhoda Grant (Highlands and Islands) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 248.0, "ContributionID": 710600, "EditedText": "I welcome this opportunity to discuss issues of agriculture and rural affairs. Such issues are of great concern to my constituents, many of whom depend on farming, fishing and tourism to maintain their standard of living. However, although this motion presents the opportunity to raise those matters, it badly lets down the people whom we are trying to represent. The people of Scotland, and of the Highlands and Islands, have a right to expect answers from the Government, but part of political debate is the right to expect the Opposition to come up with alternatives. This motion is not a solution; it is an attack on what the Executive is trying to achieve for rural areas. The motion mentions \"affordable rural housing\". In February, the Government announced that an additional £4 million was to be provided for rural areas. In that announcement, the Highlands and Islands were to receive an additional 11 per cent, as part of an additional rural funding. That money was used for excellent schemes such as the rural housing grant scheme, whereby people who are in need can apply for a grant of up to a third of the cost of building or buying a house. That is a real policy to assist rural areas. Let me pre-empt the SNP, which will no doubt consider the additional funding insufficient. No doubt it will issue a press release calling for more funding for rural housing. Someone will then call for more funding for the tourism industry, closely followed by someone else calling for money for— well, members can take their pick. Whatever the issue, whatever the area, the SNP will ask for more money, but it will never say where that money is to come from.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome this opportunity to discuss issues of agriculture and rural affairs. Such issues are of great concern to my constituents, many of whom depend on farming, fishing and tourism to maintain their standard of living. However, although this motion presents the opportunity to raise those matters, it badly lets down the people whom we are trying to represent. The people of Scotland, and of the Highlands and Islands, have a right to expect answers from the Government, but part of political debate is the right to expect the Opposition to come up with alternatives. This motion is not a solution; it is an attack on what the Executive is trying to achieve for rural areas.

The motion mentions \"affordable rural housing\". In February, the Government announced that an additional £4 million was to be provided for rural areas. In that announcement, the Highlands and Islands were to receive an additional 11 per cent, as part of an additional rural funding. That money was used for excellent schemes such as the rural housing grant scheme, whereby people who are in need can apply for a grant of up to a third of the cost of building or buying a house. That is a real policy to assist rural areas.

Let me pre-empt the SNP, which will no doubt consider the additional funding insufficient. No

doubt it will issue a press release calling for more funding for rural housing. Someone will then call for more funding for the tourism industry, closely followed by someone else calling for money for— well, members can take their pick. Whatever the issue, whatever the area, the SNP will ask for more money, but it will never say where that money is to come from.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:00:34.116328+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1860E111P160C710602", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Grant, Rhoda", "ID": 1860, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Rhoda Grant", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Rhoda Grant: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 252.0, "ContributionID": 710602, "EditedText": "No, I will not give way.The Executive, by contrast, is offering practical solutions to some of the existing problems. In September, Sarah Boyack announced that nearly £500,000 was to be allocated to the rural community transport grant scheme, to support the provision of quality public transport in rural areas, in addition to the annual £3.5 million that subsidises bus routes, ferries and rail services. Significant help has also been available for rural petrol stations. Another measure that was announced by the Government was the extension of financial assistance for the construction of croft houses for crofters who are tenants, who are single and living with their parents, or who need to live on the crofts for business reasons. That is an important aspect of the crofters building grants and loans scheme and will bring vital support to crofters in my constituency. Last Thursday, it was announced that help would be given to the Highlands and Islands from the special programme. That should not be ignored when considering what is being done to help those who live in rural areas. A sum of €300 million has been committed to help the Highlands and Islands from 2000 to 2006. The measures that I have outlined do not sound like the policies of an Executive that is failing to address the problems of rural areas. I cannot deny that there is more to be done and I am sure that the Executive would be the first to admit that. However, the tone of the SNP's motion completely ignores the positive measures that have been introduced. It is simply party political and does not encourage members to engage properly in the debate. The people whom I represent want politicians to address the issues properly, so I appeal to members to avoid repeating the yah-boo politics of Westminster and to work together to address the problems that concern the vast majority of people in rural Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I will not give way.

The Executive, by contrast, is offering practical solutions to some of the existing problems. In September, Sarah Boyack announced that nearly £500,000 was to be allocated to the rural community transport grant scheme, to support the provision of quality public transport in rural areas, in addition to the annual £3.5 million that subsidises bus routes, ferries and rail services. Significant help has also been available for rural petrol stations.

Another measure that was announced by the Government was the extension of financial assistance for the construction of croft houses for crofters who are tenants, who are single and living with their parents, or who need to live on the crofts for business reasons. That is an important aspect of the crofters building grants and loans scheme and will bring vital support to crofters in my constituency.

Last Thursday, it was announced that help would be given to the Highlands and Islands from the special programme. That should not be ignored when considering what is being done to help those who live in rural areas. A sum of €300 million has been committed to help the Highlands and Islands from 2000 to 2006.

The measures that I have outlined do not sound like the policies of an Executive that is failing to address the problems of rural areas. I cannot deny that there is more to be done and I am sure that the Executive would be the first to admit that. However, the tone of the SNP's motion completely ignores the positive measures that have been introduced. It is simply party political and does not encourage members to engage properly in the debate. The people whom I represent want politicians to address the issues properly, so I appeal to members to avoid repeating the yah-boo politics of Westminster and to work together to address the problems that concern the vast majority of people in rural Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:00:34.116328+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1756E184P464C710613", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Grahame, Christine", "ID": 1756, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Christine Grahame", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Christine Grahame: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 277.0, "ContributionID": 710613, "EditedText": "—to allow social and economic contact between the Borders and the rest of Scotland, the UK and Europe. That would lead to a flow of entrepreneurs into the Borders. It is a beautiful location with committed people but at the moment it is commercially unattractive. It would also lead to an increase in tourism, an issue raised by Alasdair Morgan and others this morning. I agree with what Euan Robson said earlier on the need for abattoirs and meat processing to add value to the farmers' produce. There is an abattoir in Galashiels that with only a little upgrading would comply with even the tightest European regulations. Meat processing in the Borders would add value to farmers' produce and increase local employment. That would assist the recovery in other ways because, when people are in jobs, they use local painters and decorators and plumbers and so on. It is also the best way to handle the beasts. The welfare of animals is improved by killing and processing them near to the point of production. Importantly, it would permit the labelling \"Scottish lamb\" or, better still, \"Borders lamb\", because it would be produced and—this is the key issue—processed in the Borders. That would impact on the marketing and recognised quality of Scottish food. The minister has used fine words. He has talked the good talk; let him walk the good walk. I will check his report card in a year's time.", "EditedTextHTML": "—to allow social and economic contact between the Borders and the rest of Scotland, the UK and Europe. That would lead to a flow of entrepreneurs into the Borders. It is a beautiful location with committed people but at the moment it is commercially unattractive. It would also lead to an increase in tourism, an issue raised by Alasdair Morgan and others this morning.

I agree with what Euan Robson said earlier on the need for abattoirs and meat processing to add value to the farmers' produce. There is an abattoir in Galashiels that with only a little upgrading would comply with even the tightest European regulations. Meat processing in the Borders would add value to farmers' produce and increase local employment. That would assist the recovery in other ways because, when people are in jobs, they use local painters and decorators and plumbers and so on. It is also the best way to handle the beasts. The welfare of animals is improved by killing and processing them near to the point of production. Importantly, it would permit the labelling \"Scottish lamb\" or, better still, \"Borders lamb\", because it would be produced and—this is the key issue—processed in the Borders. That would impact on the marketing and recognised quality of Scottish food.

The minister has used fine words. He has talked the good talk; let him walk the good walk. I will check his report card in a year's time.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:00:34.116328+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1773E197P503C710733", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Glasgow Council Housing", "QuestionHeadingID": 27005, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 521.0, "DisplayOrder": 521.0, "ID": 27005, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hyslop, Fiona", "ID": 1773, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona Hyslop", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona Hyslop: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 526.0, "ContributionID": 710733, "EditedText": "Now that the minister has taken personal charge of the Glasgow stock transfer proposal, does she see a conflict of interest in her role as the person who is chairing the implementation of the stock transfer while she is chairing the allocation of the bidding process? Will she explain how she will deal with that conflict of interest, and is such busybody behaviour to become the norm in her pursuit of public policy?", "EditedTextHTML": "Now that the minister has taken personal charge of the Glasgow stock transfer proposal, does she see a conflict of interest in her role as the person who is chairing the implementation of the stock transfer while she is chairing the allocation of the bidding process? Will she explain how she will deal with that conflict of interest, and is such busybody behaviour to become the norm in her pursuit of public policy?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:00:47.4376059+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1916E38P70C710488", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Ben", "ID": 1916, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ben Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ben Wallace (North-East Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 9.0, "ContributionID": 710488, "EditedText": "Could you confirm, Mr Morgan, that during the election you removed the fuel escalator from your calculations for an independent Scotland and for the SNP budget? I cannot remember whether that was revealed.", "EditedTextHTML": "Could you confirm, Mr Morgan, that during the election you removed the fuel escalator from your calculations for an independent Scotland and for the SNP budget? I cannot remember whether that was revealed.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1888E265P358C710489", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morgan, Alasdair", "ID": 1888, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Galloway and Upper Nithsdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morgan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alasdair Morgan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 11.0, "ContributionID": 710489, "EditedText": "No, we did not take out the fuel escalator. My point is that your party introduced the fuel escalator and you were quite happy to carry on with it—", "EditedTextHTML": "No, we did not take out the fuel escalator. My point is that your party introduced the fuel escalator and you were quite happy to carry on with it—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710490", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 13.0, "ContributionID": 710490, "EditedText": "Order. Members must speak through the chair.", "EditedTextHTML": "Order. Members must speak through the chair.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710493", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 19.0, "ContributionID": 710493, "EditedText": "Before we go any further, can we please leave yous out of this debate, except in the context of Mr Finnie's definition. Laughter.", "EditedTextHTML": "Before we go any further, can we please leave yous out of this debate, except in the context of Mr Finnie's definition. [Laughter.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C710504", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie (Lothians) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 42.0, "ContributionID": 710504, "EditedText": "Could the minister advise us whether the French food standards agency regards it as healthy and acceptable to produce meat using some of the disgusting feeding practices that go on in relation to French produce? If not, why not?", "EditedTextHTML": "Could the minister advise us whether the French food standards agency regards it as healthy and acceptable to produce meat using some of the disgusting feeding practices that go on in relation to French produce? If not, why not?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C710505", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ross Finnie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 44.0, "ContributionID": 710505, "EditedText": "That question is more properly directed at the food standards agency in France. I do not know that I have either the authority or the competence to answer that.", "EditedTextHTML": "That question is more properly directed at the food standards agency in France. I do not know that I have either the authority or the competence to answer that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C710495", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon (Argyll and Bute) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 23.0, "ContributionID": 710495, "EditedText": "The SNP's Alex Salmond and Mrs Ewing advocated throughout 1996 and 1997 that we should follow the same principles that were applied to the special deal under which the Northern Irish export ban was lifted. Can Mr Morgan tell us how many tonnes of beef are being exported from Northern Ireland as a result of that scheme, and how many firms are engaged in that process?", "EditedTextHTML": "The SNP's Alex Salmond and Mrs Ewing advocated throughout 1996 and 1997 that we should follow the same principles that were applied to the special deal under which the Northern Irish export ban was lifted. Can Mr Morgan tell us how many tonnes of beef are being exported from Northern Ireland as a result of that scheme, and how many firms are engaged in that process?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C710497", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 27.0, "ContributionID": 710497, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1888E265P358C710498", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morgan, Alasdair", "ID": 1888, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Galloway and Upper Nithsdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morgan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alasdair Morgan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 29.0, "ContributionID": 710498, "EditedText": "I will carry on—I have let George in once already. I am sure that he knows the facts. If he is called in this debate, he will have a chance to put his points to an audience that is waiting expectantly for them. I ask our ministers to go to Brussels and to other European capitals to make the case—ministers may not have the clout that they would have if Scotland was an independent member of the European Union, but there is a case to be made and one suspects that there are people in those places who are ready to listen. I do not have time to deal with every agricultural sector—although all deserve much of our time— but I will mention the pig industry. Most members will be familiar with some of the facts relating to loss of income and the closure of firms in that industry. Unlike the beef industry, the pig industry hardly benefits from any of the European Union's support regimes. It must sink or swim unaided. Until recently, it swam very well. It must now contend with welfare regulations that have been enforced unilaterally by the UK Government and that must be implemented at considerable cost to farmers. It must compete with imports from EU countries that are largely free from such costs. That industry is also faced with charges for the disposal of offal that were imposed only because of the offal disposal ban relating to BSE and the beef herd. That problem is not of the pig industry's making, but it results in disposal charges that amount to some £5 per pig. The industry has for some time been lobbying for extra state aid to be allowed under European rules to compensate for that. Pig farmers believe that the Government has not pursued this matter vigorously enough with the Commission. They point to the example of the Belgian farmers who were compensated when there was a dioxin problem in the Belgian herd. The industry believes that the Government has not pushed hard enough in Brussels—that opinion will be compounded by what happened in Brussels on Tuesday. I will now move away from agriculture—we have so little time to cover such a vast subject. The development and health of the rural economy depends on the infrastructure and availability of services. Many of my colleagues want to develop this topic, but I want to talk specifically about rural post offices—although what I say applies also to many urban post offices. Most of our rural post offices are barely viable. Recently, a sub-postmistress took—rightly in my opinion—the Post Office to court in connection with the minimum wage legislation. If that proves to have wider repercussions, the lack of viability will become even more serious. Marginal viability is something that we have always lived with, but there is a problem looming on the horizon—the Government intends to pay benefits by automated bank giro transfer. That will remove many of the post offices' customers and much of their income. Members must realise that, in many rural areas, the post office is not just a post office; it is the only shop. For a large part of the day, it is one of the few places where local people—particularly older people—can meet socially. Removing those post offices, whether by design or by default, will be another nail in the coffin of some rural communities. Some communities enter a cycle of decline—a cycle in which the main features of a sustainable community disappear.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will carry on—I have let George in once already. I am sure that he knows the facts. If he is called in this debate, he will have a chance to put his points to an audience that is waiting expectantly for them.

I ask our ministers to go to Brussels and to other European capitals to make the case—ministers may not have the clout that they would have if Scotland was an independent member of the European Union, but there is a case to be made and one suspects that there are people in those places who are ready to listen.

I do not have time to deal with every agricultural sector—although all deserve much of our time— but I will mention the pig industry. Most members will be familiar with some of the facts relating to loss of income and the closure of firms in that industry. Unlike the beef industry, the pig industry hardly benefits from any of the European Union's support regimes. It must sink or swim unaided. Until recently, it swam very well. It must now contend with welfare regulations that have been enforced unilaterally by the UK Government and that must be implemented at considerable cost to farmers. It must compete with imports from EU countries that are largely free from such costs.

That industry is also faced with charges for the disposal of offal that were imposed only because of the offal disposal ban relating to BSE and the beef herd. That problem is not of the pig industry's making, but it results in disposal charges that amount to some £5 per pig. The industry has for some time been lobbying for extra state aid to be allowed under European rules to compensate for that.

Pig farmers believe that the Government has not pursued this matter vigorously enough with the Commission. They point to the example of the Belgian farmers who were compensated when there was a dioxin problem in the Belgian herd. The industry believes that the Government has not pushed hard enough in Brussels—that opinion will be compounded by what happened in Brussels on Tuesday.

I will now move away from agriculture—we have so little time to cover such a vast subject. The development and health of the rural economy depends on the infrastructure and availability of services. Many of my colleagues want to develop this topic, but I want to talk specifically about rural post offices—although what I say applies also to many urban post offices.

Most of our rural post offices are barely viable. Recently, a sub-postmistress took—rightly in my

opinion—the Post Office to court in connection with the minimum wage legislation. If that proves to have wider repercussions, the lack of viability will become even more serious. Marginal viability is something that we have always lived with, but there is a problem looming on the horizon—the Government intends to pay benefits by automated bank giro transfer. That will remove many of the post offices' customers and much of their income.

Members must realise that, in many rural areas, the post office is not just a post office; it is the only shop. For a large part of the day, it is one of the few places where local people—particularly older people—can meet socially. Removing those post offices, whether by design or by default, will be another nail in the coffin of some rural communities. Some communities enter a cycle of decline—a cycle in which the main features of a sustainable community disappear.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2140E187P335C710499", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Rumbles, Mike", "ID": 2140, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Rumbles", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Mike Rumbles (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 31.0, "ContributionID": 710499, "EditedText": "Liberal Democrat MPs tabled an early-day motion in Westminster in September 1998 to campaign for rural post offices to be given the equipment to process automated benefit payments through the use of swipe cards. That would have helped rural post offices. Will Mr Morgan comment on the fact that no SNP MPs bothered to sign that motion?", "EditedTextHTML": "Liberal Democrat MPs tabled an early-day motion in Westminster in September 1998 to campaign for rural post offices to be given the equipment to process automated benefit payments through the use of swipe cards. That would have helped rural post offices. Will Mr Morgan comment on the fact that no SNP MPs bothered to sign that motion?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C710501", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Rural Affairs (Ross Finnie): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 36.0, "ContributionID": 710501, "EditedText": "I am pleased to have this opportunity to respond to the motion that has been moved by Alasdair Morgan. With one or two minor exceptions—and I say that constructively—there are many areas on which we find common ground. It is important that we question Government policies, as, in the past, our rural areas have not received sufficient attention. That is not to say that previous Governments entirely ignored rural areas; it is just that I do not think that they gave them enough attention. It is my view, and the view of the Executive, that that approach must change. As Alasdair Morgan says, Scotland has its own Parliament, and it is right that this body should reflect the balance of Scottish interests. Alasdair did not give a figure, but 89 per cent of Scotland's landmass is designated rural, and almost a third of our fellow Scots live in rural areas. The focus of political debate must change to reflect that. That is why the Executive has gone out of its way, in its first few months, to emphasise the rural agenda. For the first time in the UK, there is a rural affairs department and a minister with responsibility for overseeing the whole rural agenda. Alasdair mentioned the partnership document. Yes, we committed ourselves to addressing the problems to which he referred, and we understand that that document must be translated into action. That is not a pledge that I take lightly. We are working, throughout the programme of government, to ensure that the rural dimension is included at every point. We remain committed to supporting theprogress of the University of the Highlands and Islands and to investigating the creation of a south of Scotland university. We will publish a social inclusion strategy that will not be focused entirely on urban areas, as happened in the past, but will have a rural dimension. We are working closely with enterprise bodies to develop a food strategy that will not only embrace the central Scotland interest in processing, but will bring into play the primary producers who live and work in our remote rural areas. Since May, we have spent a lot of time seeking different ways in which we can address some of those problems. The SNP motion talks about a crisis in rural areas, but that does not apply all round. We must be careful about using such language. We do not want to play down the problems that people in rural areas face, but nor do we want to diminish the contribution that those people make. We should be proud of the large part of our country outside our congested urban centres that is designated rural. Members who have rural constituencies will know that there are many energetic, imaginative and successful people living and working in rural Scotland. The job of the Executive is to recognise the problems, but also to harness the talents and natural resources that exist in rural areas. There are things that we want to improve on, but we should not forget that, strangely enough, the population of rural areas has increased over the past eight years. Moreover, unemployment remains below the national average, although we must not underestimate the problems of growing underemployment. We should identify and build on those strengths. As Alasdair said, we have often fallen into the trap of comparing rural and urban areas and of seeing rural areas as different or as something apart. We must look at Scotland as a whole and recognise that many of our mainstream policies also affect rural areas. I do not know whether people in other parts of the United Kingdom feel that rural areas are not important, but that is certainly not the view in Scotland. Our rural areas should be seen as an integral part of the country and I believe that we should make more of them. In world trading terms, they are a priceless asset on which we should build. We should not deny the problems, and I want to mention some of the points that Alasdair raised about the primary sector. A month ago, I talked about the difficulties that farmers face and I explained what the Executive was doing to address the situation in the short term and in the medium-to-longer term. There are no easy solutions to some of the problems, but it is nonsense to suggest, as the SNP motion does, that the European Commission is not helping hill farmers. Having seen all the evidence, I do not think that there is any basis for such a claim. We are all bitterly disappointed that the Commission failed to approve a cull ewe scheme, but we should consider the aid package that is available to hill farmers through the common agricultural policy. On top of that, I was able to announce £40 million in additional funding. The hill farmers will be the main beneficiaries of that. Scottish farmers will also benefit from the new money that they will receive in the next few days to compensate them for the relative weakness of the euro. Sheep farmers were recently given £7.3 million in compensation and, over the next few days, £6.4 million will be paid to beef farmers and £19 million will be paid to the arable sector. That will not solve the industry's problems, but Europe is not abandoning the hill farmers. Alasdair was right to point out that the pig sector is experiencing extreme problems at the moment. I am concerned that all the work that the Scottish pig industry initiative did on marketing, which for a brief period gave a differential to pigmeat in Scotland, appears to have been swept away so that we are now trading at a commodity price that is deeply damaging to the pig sector in Scotland. With ministerial colleagues throughout the United Kingdom, I tried to find out whether we would be able to give direct compensation to the pig sector. We are running up against a brick wall in trying to get state aid, but I do not want any member to believe that we are not pressing hard for it. The pig sector is perhaps in a worse situation than are our other livestock sectors because the rules that govern it specify that there should be light regulation. That makes it even more difficult to overcome the already high hurdle of securing state aid. We are still consulting on how to tackle misleading labelling and I hope that that will assist the sector. Last week, in answer to a parliamentary question, I announced that £5 million is being made available for additional marketing. Scotland will get its share of that and we are discussing with the industry how it will be used.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am pleased to have this opportunity to respond to the motion that has been moved by Alasdair Morgan. With one or two minor exceptions—and I say that constructively—there are many areas on which we find common ground.

It is important that we question Government policies, as, in the past, our rural areas have not received sufficient attention. That is not to say that previous Governments entirely ignored rural areas; it is just that I do not think that they gave them enough attention. It is my view, and the view of the Executive, that that approach must change. As Alasdair Morgan says, Scotland has its own Parliament, and it is right that this body should reflect the balance of Scottish interests. Alasdair did not give a figure, but 89 per cent of Scotland's landmass is designated rural, and almost a third of our fellow Scots live in rural areas. The focus of political debate must change to reflect that.

That is why the Executive has gone out of its way, in its first few months, to emphasise the rural agenda. For the first time in the UK, there is a rural affairs department and a minister with responsibility for overseeing the whole rural agenda. Alasdair mentioned the partnership document. Yes, we committed ourselves to addressing the problems to which he referred, and we understand that that document must be translated into action. That is not a pledge that I take lightly. We are working, throughout the programme of government, to ensure that the rural dimension is included at every point.

We remain committed to supporting the

progress of the University of the Highlands and Islands and to investigating the creation of a south of Scotland university. We will publish a social inclusion strategy that will not be focused entirely on urban areas, as happened in the past, but will have a rural dimension. We are working closely with enterprise bodies to develop a food strategy that will not only embrace the central Scotland interest in processing, but will bring into play the primary producers who live and work in our remote rural areas.

Since May, we have spent a lot of time seeking different ways in which we can address some of those problems. The SNP motion talks about a crisis in rural areas, but that does not apply all round. We must be careful about using such language. We do not want to play down the problems that people in rural areas face, but nor do we want to diminish the contribution that those people make. We should be proud of the large part of our country outside our congested urban centres that is designated rural. Members who have rural constituencies will know that there are many energetic, imaginative and successful people living and working in rural Scotland. The job of the Executive is to recognise the problems, but also to harness the talents and natural resources that exist in rural areas.

There are things that we want to improve on, but we should not forget that, strangely enough, the population of rural areas has increased over the past eight years. Moreover, unemployment remains below the national average, although we must not underestimate the problems of growing underemployment. We should identify and build on those strengths. As Alasdair said, we have often fallen into the trap of comparing rural and urban areas and of seeing rural areas as different or as something apart. We must look at Scotland as a whole and recognise that many of our mainstream policies also affect rural areas.

I do not know whether people in other parts of the United Kingdom feel that rural areas are not important, but that is certainly not the view in Scotland. Our rural areas should be seen as an integral part of the country and I believe that we should make more of them. In world trading terms, they are a priceless asset on which we should build.

We should not deny the problems, and I want to mention some of the points that Alasdair raised about the primary sector. A month ago, I talked about the difficulties that farmers face and I explained what the Executive was doing to address the situation in the short term and in the medium-to-longer term. There are no easy solutions to some of the problems, but it is nonsense to suggest, as the SNP motion does, that the European Commission is not helping hill farmers. Having seen all the evidence, I do not think that there is any basis for such a claim. We are all bitterly disappointed that the Commission failed to approve a cull ewe scheme, but we should consider the aid package that is available to hill farmers through the common agricultural policy. On top of that, I was able to announce £40 million in additional funding. The hill farmers will be the main beneficiaries of that.

Scottish farmers will also benefit from the new money that they will receive in the next few days to compensate them for the relative weakness of the euro. Sheep farmers were recently given £7.3 million in compensation and, over the next few days, £6.4 million will be paid to beef farmers and £19 million will be paid to the arable sector. That will not solve the industry's problems, but Europe is not abandoning the hill farmers.

Alasdair was right to point out that the pig sector is experiencing extreme problems at the moment. I am concerned that all the work that the Scottish pig industry initiative did on marketing, which for a brief period gave a differential to pigmeat in Scotland, appears to have been swept away so that we are now trading at a commodity price that is deeply damaging to the pig sector in Scotland.

With ministerial colleagues throughout the United Kingdom, I tried to find out whether we would be able to give direct compensation to the pig sector. We are running up against a brick wall in trying to get state aid, but I do not want any member to believe that we are not pressing hard for it. The pig sector is perhaps in a worse situation than are our other livestock sectors because the rules that govern it specify that there should be light regulation. That makes it even more difficult to overcome the already high hurdle of securing state aid.

We are still consulting on how to tackle misleading labelling and I hope that that will assist the sector. Last week, in answer to a parliamentary question, I announced that £5 million is being made available for additional marketing. Scotland will get its share of that and we are discussing with the industry how it will be used.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C710509", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ross Finnie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 52.0, "ContributionID": 710509, "EditedText": "I had a meeting with Mr Buncle last Wednesday at which that was one of a number of matters that he raised. I will come back to the point on the fuel escalator in a moment.", "EditedTextHTML": "I had a meeting with Mr Buncle last Wednesday at which that was one of a number of matters that he raised. I will come back to the point on the fuel escalator in a moment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C710518", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 71.0, "ContributionID": 710518, "EditedText": "To pursue your line of absolving yourself from any responsibility, do you agree with William Waldegrave, who stated on a television programme the other night that he was ashamed of the Major Government's handling of the BSE crisis? He said that the Major Government turned the BSE crisis into an anti-European crusade to satisfy Eurosceptic back benchers. Do you agree with that sentiment?", "EditedTextHTML": "To pursue your line of absolving yourself from any responsibility, do you agree with William Waldegrave, who stated on a television programme the other night that he was ashamed of the Major Government's handling of the BSE crisis? He said that the Major Government turned the BSE crisis into an anti-European crusade to satisfy Eurosceptic back benchers.

Do you agree with that sentiment?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1893E47P78C710512", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnstone, Alex", "ID": 1893, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Johnstone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Johnstone (North-East Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 59.0, "ContributionID": 710512, "EditedText": "I draw attention to my entry in the register of members' interests, which shows that I make my living as a farmer. I congratulate the SNP on introducing this matter as opposition business. It was a disappointment to members of every party that the time allowed for the previous debate, on the Executive motion, was so short. It was noted throughout the farming community that so little time and interest in their plight was shown by some members. It gives me great pleasure to address the accusation Ross Finnie has levelled at us. In fact, the amendment was lodged partially for the reason Ross Finnie suggested: we deny responsibility for much of what we are accused of in the SNP motion. Some of what appears in it is not only divisive in political terms, it is divisive in industry terms, in that it singles out certain areas of the rural economy and the farming industry for special attention, while ignoring others that may be in a similar, or perhaps worse, condition. For that reason, we were delighted to take the opportunity to amend the motion—but only partially, because we agree with much of it. We hope that our amendment has distilled the SNP motion so that it can enjoy the support of every party in the chamber. We commend the amendment to the chamber.", "EditedTextHTML": "I draw attention to my entry in the register of members' interests, which shows that I make my living as a farmer.

I congratulate the SNP on introducing this matter as opposition business. It was a disappointment to members of every party that the time allowed for the previous debate, on the Executive motion, was so short. It was noted throughout the farming community that so little time and interest in their plight was shown by some members.

It gives me great pleasure to address the accusation Ross Finnie has levelled at us. In fact, the amendment was lodged partially for the reason Ross Finnie suggested: we deny responsibility for much of what we are accused of in the SNP motion. Some of what appears in it is not only divisive in political terms, it is divisive in industry terms, in that it singles out certain areas of the rural economy and the farming industry for special attention, while ignoring others that may be in a similar, or perhaps worse, condition. For that reason, we were delighted to take the opportunity to amend the motion—but only partially, because we agree with much of it.

We hope that our amendment has distilled the SNP motion so that it can enjoy the support of every party in the chamber. We commend the amendment to the chamber.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1892E34P73C710514", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Fergusson, Alex", "ID": 1892, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Fergusson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Fergusson (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 63.0, "ContributionID": 710514, "EditedText": "It is a good one and it will get better.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is a good one and it will get better.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1893E47P78C710515", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnstone, Alex", "ID": 1893, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Johnstone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Johnstone: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 65.0, "ContributionID": 710515, "EditedText": "I agree.I must move on to the minister's amendment. If we were being accused of avoiding responsibility for what some might think ought to be our responsibility—", "EditedTextHTML": "I agree.

I must move on to the minister's amendment. If we were being accused of avoiding responsibility for what some might think ought to be our responsibility—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C710516", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 67.0, "ContributionID": 710516, "EditedText": "Will Alex Johnstone give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Alex Johnstone give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710519", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 73.0, "ContributionID": 710519, "EditedText": "I do not have to agree with anything.", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not have to agree with anything.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2140E187P335C710521", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Rumbles, Mike", "ID": 2140, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Rumbles", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Rumbles: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 77.0, "ContributionID": 710521, "EditedText": "Is Mr Johnstone absolving the previous Tory Government of any responsibility for the crisis in agriculture? Is he saying that the crisis began in May 1997?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is Mr Johnstone absolving the previous Tory Government of any responsibility for the crisis in agriculture? Is he saying that the crisis began in May 1997?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1893E47P78C710522", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnstone, Alex", "ID": 1893, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Johnstone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Johnstone: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 79.0, "ContributionID": 710522, "EditedText": "The situation that rural Scotland finds itself in today has developed over a considerable period of time. The Liberal Democrats have chosen to take the view that the crisis was caused entirely prior to 1997. That is the view that Mr Rumbles has often expressed in the chamber and it is one the Conservatives must put up a defence against.", "EditedTextHTML": "The situation that rural Scotland finds itself in today has developed over a considerable period of time. The Liberal Democrats have chosen to take the view that the crisis was caused entirely prior to 1997. That is the view that Mr Rumbles has often expressed in the chamber and it is one the Conservatives must put up a defence against.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1893E47P78C710524", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnstone, Alex", "ID": 1893, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Johnstone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Johnstone: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 83.0, "ContributionID": 710524, "EditedText": "No, I will move on quickly with the points that I have to make, as time is limited. The Scottish Executive and the Labour Government in Westminster have implemented unprecedented regulation and taxation on farming and the farming industry.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I will move on quickly with the points that I have to make, as time is limited.

The Scottish Executive and the Labour Government in Westminster have implemented unprecedented regulation and taxation on farming and the farming industry.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C710525", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ross Finnie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 85.0, "ContributionID": 710525, "EditedText": "Will Mr Johnstone give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr Johnstone give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C710530", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ross Finnie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 95.0, "ContributionID": 710530, "EditedText": "Will Mr Johnstone give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr Johnstone give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4826755+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2140E187P335C710545", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Rumbles, Mike", "ID": 2140, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Rumbles", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Rumbles: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 126.0, "ContributionID": 710545, "EditedText": "Come on. I have only a few minutes. Do not make a speech.", "EditedTextHTML": "Come on. I have only a few minutes. Do not make a speech.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4826755+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C710547", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 130.0, "ContributionID": 710547, "EditedText": "I ask Mr McLetchie and other members to keep their interventions brief. Mr Rumbles, I will take into consideration the amount of time that intervention took.", "EditedTextHTML": "I ask Mr McLetchie and other members to keep their interventions brief. Mr Rumbles, I will take into consideration the amount of time that intervention took.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4826755+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C710549", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 134.0, "ContributionID": 710549, "EditedText": "The Liberal Democrats joined the Government. They have made their choice.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Liberal Democrats joined the Government. They have made their choice.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4826755+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C710557", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 151.0, "ContributionID": 710557, "EditedText": "No. The Tories failed rural Scotland in the same way as this Administration is failing rural Scotland. I am very fond of Mr Finnie, but there is something immensely perverse in putting such a charming accountant from Greenock in charge of the whole of rural Scotland and giving fisheries to a farmer from land-locked Berwickshire. Perhaps they are nervous that sitting behind them is a farmer from Bute whose ambition is to shepherd the Liberal Democrats and, in so doing, to make his way to the front bench.", "EditedTextHTML": "No. The Tories failed rural Scotland in the same way as this Administration is failing rural Scotland.

I am very fond of Mr Finnie, but there is something immensely perverse in putting such a charming accountant from Greenock in charge of the whole of rural Scotland and giving fisheries to a farmer from land-locked Berwickshire. Perhaps they are nervous that sitting behind them is a farmer from Bute whose ambition is to shepherd the Liberal Democrats and, in so doing, to make his way to the front bench.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4826755+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2044E178P334C710558", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jenkins, Ian", "ID": 2044, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ian Jenkins", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ian Jenkins (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 153.0, "ContributionID": 710558, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4826755+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C710551", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell (South of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 139.0, "ContributionID": 710551, "EditedText": "The important thing about the motion is that it seeks to unite rural and urban Scotland. In fact, it seeks to do what this Parliament is tasked to do. I do not often quote Liberal Democrats with approval, but I want to quote Tavish Scott, speaking in the debate on the consultative steering group report. He said: \"There is still concern in areas such as Shetland\"— the concern is shared throughout Scotland— \"that the Parliament will concentrate on the needs of the central belt, not on those of peripheral, rural and island areas. It is up to the Parliament to demonstrate that that is not the case and that there are ways in which peripheral, rural and island areas can be at the heart of what goes on in here.\"—Official Report, 9 June 1999; Vol 1, c 387. We are all aware that the flow to urban Scotland is a phenomenon that took place in the late 18th century, throughout the 19th century and into the 20th century. Scotland had the fastest rate of industrialisation of any country in Europe in the 19th century. However, that flow has been reversed to some extent during the second half of the 20th century. Indeed, as Alasdair Morgan said, the population of rural Scotland is growing. Rural Scotland accounts for about 89 per cent of the Scottish land mass and about 29 per cent of the population. The population in Scotland's rural areas has been growing at a rate of up to 3 per cent, partly because it is easier to get to those areas; people can commute into towns and cities. In addition, many people desire—or find it necessary—to work and live in rural Scotland. It is ironic that while the population is increasing, the problems of transport, housing, provision of utilities and education are deepening. I am glad that the Education, Culture and Sport Committee took the issue of rural schools on board yesterday and appointed Jamie Stone as a rapporteur. I hope that the Parliament can begin to make a difference on that issue and many of the other issues in rural Scotland. There have been pioneers—including from the Labour movement—who have looked at the gulf between rural and urban Scotland and attempted to solve it. Two of my all-time heroes of the 20th century in Scotland are Tom Johnston and Bob Grieve. I worked for Bob Grieve at one stage. Both of them saw the necessity of uniting rural and urban Scotland and put substantial parts of their lives into achieving that aim. Bob Grieve memorably said that he would support an independent Scotland after the problems of Glasgow and the Highlands had been solved—a position similar to that taken by Edwin Muir in his Scottish journey in 1934. We have to create unity in Scotland. The motion would achieve that. Tragically, that is not being done by the actions of this Government. Nor was it done by the actions of previous Governments. They are also guilty. The fuel price escalator is one example of policies that have deepened the gulf and made it more difficult for people to earn a living in rural Scotland and to have sustainable communities there. The Parliament is failing Scotland unless we see it as one of our primary duties to increase the ability—", "EditedTextHTML": "The important thing about the motion is that it seeks to unite rural and urban Scotland. In fact, it seeks to do what this Parliament is tasked to do. I

do not often quote Liberal Democrats with approval, but I want to quote Tavish Scott, speaking in the debate on the consultative steering group report. He said:

\"There is still concern in areas such as Shetland\"— the concern is shared throughout Scotland—

\"that the Parliament will concentrate on the needs of the central belt, not on those of peripheral, rural and island areas. It is up to the Parliament to demonstrate that that is not the case and that there are ways in which peripheral, rural and island areas can be at the heart of what goes on in here.\"—[Official Report, 9 June 1999; Vol 1, c 387.]

We are all aware that the flow to urban Scotland is a phenomenon that took place in the late 18th century, throughout the 19th century and into the 20th century. Scotland had the fastest rate of industrialisation of any country in Europe in the 19th century. However, that flow has been reversed to some extent during the second half of the 20th century. Indeed, as Alasdair Morgan said, the population of rural Scotland is growing. Rural Scotland accounts for about 89 per cent of the Scottish land mass and about 29 per cent of the population. The population in Scotland's rural areas has been growing at a rate of up to 3 per cent, partly because it is easier to get to those areas; people can commute into towns and cities. In addition, many people desire—or find it necessary—to work and live in rural Scotland.

It is ironic that while the population is increasing, the problems of transport, housing, provision of utilities and education are deepening. I am glad that the Education, Culture and Sport Committee took the issue of rural schools on board yesterday and appointed Jamie Stone as a rapporteur. I hope that the Parliament can begin to make a difference on that issue and many of the other issues in rural Scotland.

There have been pioneers—including from the Labour movement—who have looked at the gulf between rural and urban Scotland and attempted to solve it. Two of my all-time heroes of the 20th century in Scotland are Tom Johnston and Bob Grieve. I worked for Bob Grieve at one stage. Both of them saw the necessity of uniting rural and urban Scotland and put substantial parts of their lives into achieving that aim. Bob Grieve memorably said that he would support an independent Scotland after the problems of Glasgow and the Highlands had been solved—a position similar to that taken by Edwin Muir in his Scottish journey in 1934.

We have to create unity in Scotland. The motion would achieve that. Tragically, that is not being done by the actions of this Government. Nor was it done by the actions of previous Governments. They are also guilty. The fuel price escalator is one example of policies that have deepened the gulf and made it more difficult for people to earn a living in rural Scotland and to have sustainable communities there. The Parliament is failing Scotland unless we see it as one of our primary duties to increase the ability—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4826755+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C710554", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 145.0, "ContributionID": 710554, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4826755+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1893E47P78C710556", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnstone, Alex", "ID": 1893, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Johnstone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Johnstone: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 149.0, "ContributionID": 710556, "EditedText": "Will the gentleman give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the gentleman give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4826755+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1888E265P358C710582", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morgan, Alasdair", "ID": 1888, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Galloway and Upper Nithsdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morgan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alasdair Morgan rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 205.0, "ContributionID": 710582, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4826755+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C710584", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 209.0, "ContributionID": 710584, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "

Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4826755+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1840E82P158C710585", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macmillan, Maureen", "ID": 1840, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Maureen Macmillan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Maureen Macmillan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 211.0, "ContributionID": 710585, "EditedText": "No, thank you. I do nothave time, as I have only a few seconds left.When one thinks of how much Sabhal Mòr Ostaig has done for the south of Skye, think how much a similar college could do for Islay. The way forward is education and training. The networks are there and the European structural funds and the special funds won by Tony Blair—who, yes, is a great hero of mine—are putting in place systems of education and training and infrastructure that will bring the Highlands into the 21st century.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, thank you. I do not

have time, as I have only a few seconds left.

When one thinks of how much Sabhal Mòr Ostaig has done for the south of Skye, think how much a similar college could do for Islay. The way forward is education and training. The networks are there and the European structural funds and the special funds won by Tony Blair—who, yes, is a great hero of mine—are putting in place systems of education and training and infrastructure that will bring the Highlands into the 21st century.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4826755+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1873E89P171C710590", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jackson, Dr Sylvia", "ID": 1873, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Stirling" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sylvia Jackson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Sylvia Jackson (Stirling) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 224.0, "ContributionID": 710590, "EditedText": "I do not think that there is any doubt that there are real issues concerning rural communities. The problems are worsened by remoteness, often from essential services. The Government recognises those problems, and is taking active measures to tackle them. Many of the issues raised in the SNP motion are central to the needs of all Scotland. I took on board Ross Finnie's point that it is perhaps time that we looked across urban and rural aspects and tried to look at need in a more integrated way. Some of the issues raised in the SNP motion are dependable public transport, affordable housing and the regeneration of communities, right across rural and urban areas. The Executive is working to find realistic solutions to those problems in both rural and urban settings. Only last week, the public transport fund delivered a £26 million boost, with a substantial part of that going to rural areas. It includes the park-and-ride scheme in Aberdeenshire and the new, larger ferry for the Corran ferry service in the Highlands: both try to improve access in rural areas. I take issue with the suggestion in the motion that the coalition is not working towards an effective rural strategy. The Scottish Executive is setting up plan teams to develop the new rural development programmes for 2000 to 2006. They involve the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities, the National Farmers Union of Scotland, the Scottish Crofters Union, the Scottish Landowners Federation and others. It is an inclusive and co-ordinated approach to rural development. Representing the Stirling constituency, I have a particular interest in rural development. I can tell Mr Hamilton that I am totally committed, as a Labour MSP, to my rural areas, and I attend every debate on rural issues that I can. Along with West Dunbartonshire and Argyll and Bute, Stirling Council is involved in the interim committee charged with developing the park plan for the first national park in Loch Lomond and the Trossachs, a matter that I wish to deal with during the last few minutes of my speech. The process of generating the park plan holds potential for developing a policy for effective rural development that will bring great benefit to our area. The development will provide us with the opportunity for integrating economic development with proper protection of natural heritage and it will have sustainability at its heart. The Loch Lomond and Trossachs interim committee has been established along with four reporting groups, most of which have begun to meet, which are examining the following areas: recreation, access and visitor services; natural and cultural heritage; agriculture, forestry and field sports; and social and economic development. The groups are forums for debate and bring together individuals and organisations with common interests. It will be interesting to see how the groups might mesh across boundaries and how they might bring to the debate some of the issues on rural housing and so on.", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not think that there is any doubt that there are real issues concerning rural communities. The problems are worsened by remoteness, often from essential services. The Government recognises those problems, and is taking active measures to tackle them.

Many of the issues raised in the SNP motion are central to the needs of all Scotland. I took on board Ross Finnie's point that it is perhaps time that we looked across urban and rural aspects and tried to look at need in a more integrated way.

Some of the issues raised in the SNP motion are dependable public transport, affordable housing and the regeneration of communities, right across rural and urban areas. The Executive is working to find realistic solutions to those problems in both rural and urban settings. Only last week, the public transport fund delivered a £26 million boost, with a substantial part of that going to rural areas. It includes the park-and-ride scheme in Aberdeenshire and the new, larger ferry for the Corran ferry service in the Highlands: both try to improve access in rural areas.

I take issue with the suggestion in the motion that the coalition is not working towards an effective rural strategy. The Scottish Executive is setting up plan teams to develop the new rural development programmes for 2000 to 2006. They involve the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities, the National Farmers Union of Scotland, the Scottish Crofters Union, the Scottish Landowners Federation and others. It is an inclusive and co-ordinated approach to rural development.

Representing the Stirling constituency, I have a particular interest in rural development. I can tell Mr Hamilton that I am totally committed, as a Labour MSP, to my rural areas, and I attend every debate on rural issues that I can.

Along with West Dunbartonshire and Argyll and Bute, Stirling Council is involved in the interim committee charged with developing the park plan for the first national park in Loch Lomond and the Trossachs, a matter that I wish to deal with during the last few minutes of my speech.

The process of generating the park plan holds potential for developing a policy for effective rural development that will bring great benefit to our area. The development will provide us with the opportunity for integrating economic development with proper protection of natural heritage and it will have sustainability at its heart.

The Loch Lomond and Trossachs interim committee has been established along with four reporting groups, most of which have begun to meet, which are examining the following areas: recreation, access and visitor services; natural and cultural heritage; agriculture, forestry and field sports; and social and economic development. The groups are forums for debate and bring together individuals and organisations with common interests. It will be interesting to see how the groups might mesh across boundaries and how they might bring to the debate some of the issues on rural housing and so on.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.498304+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C710591", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Brian Monteith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 226.0, "ContributionID": 710591, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.498304+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1873E89P171C710592", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jackson, Dr Sylvia", "ID": 1873, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Stirling" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sylvia Jackson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Jackson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 228.0, "ContributionID": 710592, "EditedText": "No. I am sorry, but I have only a short time. The association of community councils is represented as a fifth reporting group and is taking an active part in the discussions. The process should be welcomed, as it is trying to involve local communities in local decisions and is attempting to be transparent and inclusive. The resulting park plan must take account of the existing structure and local plans for Stirling and the other council areas. While that will not be easy, that is one of the aims of the process. The ambition and scale of the project is to be welcomed as it recognises local resources as a valuable investment for that rural community. Empowerment is a key issue. My particular interest in telecommunications masts has been rewarded, as the interim committee has taken on board article 4 directives to stop permitted developments within the national park area. However, not everything is running smoothly. An east of Scotland European consortium report says that there are several areas that we need to investigate and that \"further strategic co-ordination of development efforts is required to maintain and establish diversified rural economies\".", "EditedTextHTML": "No. I am sorry, but I have only a short time.

The association of community councils is represented as a fifth reporting group and is taking an active part in the discussions. The process should be welcomed, as it is trying to involve local communities in local decisions and is attempting to be transparent and inclusive. The resulting park plan must take account of the existing structure and local plans for Stirling and the other council areas. While that will not be easy, that is one of the aims of the process. The ambition and scale of the project is to be welcomed as it recognises local resources as a valuable investment for that rural community. Empowerment is a key issue.

My particular interest in telecommunications masts has been rewarded, as the interim committee has taken on board article 4 directives to stop permitted developments within the national park area.

However, not everything is running smoothly. An east of Scotland European consortium report says that there are several areas that we need to investigate and that

\"further strategic co-ordination of development efforts is required to maintain and establish diversified rural economies\".

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.498304+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C710608", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 266.0, "ContributionID": 710608, "EditedText": "Sorry, George. I have limited time. We have regularly debated homelessness in this chamber. The farmers came to me with a serious problem: this winter they have homeless cows, and no sheds for them. I welcome the review of tourism. The latest figures show that tourism in the Highlands is 20 per cent down on last year, which is a serious problem. I positively await the new strategy. A problem that is raised regularly in my surgeries, whether in Ardnamurchan or the Black Isle, is the amount of new build housing in the Highlands. We all recognise that there is a need for rural housing, but there seems to be no control over the enormous amount of housing that is being built. In the Black Isle alone, 7,500 houses have been built. I welcome the University of the Highlands and Islands, but it is important to mention that the majority of the colleges in the UHI network are facing serious financial deficits. Inverness College has a deficit of £4 million. Perth College, a leader in the UHI network, is instituting compulsory redundancies. If the UHI is to mean anything, we must support the 14 colleges that make up the network. Otherwise, there is no UHI. I want to use this opportunity to raise an issue that has rarely been debated. This week we heard about the 1,200 job losses at Daks-Simpson in the central belt. I want to raise the profile of the BARMAC oil fabrication yards at Nigg and Ardersier. As a result of the downturn in the oil market they are to shed 4,000 jobs between now and the end of May next year. Those jobs are not all Highland jobs, but I spoke to BARMAC this morning and found that more than half the jobs are in the Highlands and Islands and many of the remaining 2,000 are based elsewhere in Scotland. Highland organisations have got together— Highlands and Islands Enterprise, the local enterprise companies network, the job centre I spoke to on Monday, the Benefits Agency. They have experienced the problem before in the Highlands. Perhaps 150 does not seem a large number in the central belt, but 150 men going back to the Western Isles with rarely transferable skills is a serious problem. I realise that time has run out, but I will quickly say that if social inclusion is to mean anything, it means giving people living on islands the opportunity to visit the mainland. It was brought to my attention last week that a child's fare from Shetland to the mainland was quoted as £56 plus an additional £28—a £10 tax and an £18 passenger handling fee from Aberdeen, or £11.40 from Inverness. I ask the Scottish Executive to look at passenger handling fees and taxes for islanders.", "EditedTextHTML": "Sorry, George. I have limited time. We have regularly debated homelessness in this chamber. The farmers came to me with a serious problem: this winter they have homeless cows, and no sheds for them.

I welcome the review of tourism. The latest figures show that tourism in the Highlands is 20 per cent down on last year, which is a serious problem. I positively await the new strategy.

A problem that is raised regularly in my surgeries, whether in Ardnamurchan or the Black Isle, is the amount of new build housing in the

Highlands. We all recognise that there is a need for rural housing, but there seems to be no control over the enormous amount of housing that is being built. In the Black Isle alone, 7,500 houses have been built.

I welcome the University of the Highlands and Islands, but it is important to mention that the majority of the colleges in the UHI network are facing serious financial deficits. Inverness College has a deficit of £4 million. Perth College, a leader in the UHI network, is instituting compulsory redundancies. If the UHI is to mean anything, we must support the 14 colleges that make up the network. Otherwise, there is no UHI.

I want to use this opportunity to raise an issue that has rarely been debated. This week we heard about the 1,200 job losses at Daks-Simpson in the central belt. I want to raise the profile of the BARMAC oil fabrication yards at Nigg and Ardersier. As a result of the downturn in the oil market they are to shed 4,000 jobs between now and the end of May next year. Those jobs are not all Highland jobs, but I spoke to BARMAC this morning and found that more than half the jobs are in the Highlands and Islands and many of the remaining 2,000 are based elsewhere in Scotland.

Highland organisations have got together— Highlands and Islands Enterprise, the local enterprise companies network, the job centre I spoke to on Monday, the Benefits Agency. They have experienced the problem before in the Highlands. Perhaps 150 does not seem a large number in the central belt, but 150 men going back to the Western Isles with rarely transferable skills is a serious problem.

I realise that time has run out, but I will quickly say that if social inclusion is to mean anything, it means giving people living on islands the opportunity to visit the mainland. It was brought to my attention last week that a child's fare from Shetland to the mainland was quoted as £56 plus an additional £28—a £10 tax and an £18 passenger handling fee from Aberdeen, or £11.40 from Inverness. I ask the Scottish Executive to look at passenger handling fees and taxes for islanders.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.498304+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C710609", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 268.0, "ContributionID": 710609, "EditedText": "Unusually today, I will be relaxed if members want to go on a little longer.", "EditedTextHTML": "Unusually today, I will be relaxed if members want to go on a little longer.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.498304+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C710615", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 282.0, "ContributionID": 710615, "EditedText": "You may talk at considerable length, if you wish.", "EditedTextHTML": "You may talk at considerable length, if you wish.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.498304+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1878E208P502C710623", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Dr Winnie", "ID": 1878, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Winnie Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Winnie Ewing (Highlands and Islands) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 300.0, "ContributionID": 710623, "EditedText": "As we have had an anecdote from Ross and Cromarty, I will cite a remark by the Liberal member who was my sponsor, the late Alasdair Mackenzie—a most endearing man, whom everybody loved. On the possibility that members from Scotland would continue to go down to London after the establishment of the Scottish Parliament, he once said: \"What will they be doing down there? Just loafing about.\" I have always thought that that summed up what my party regards as the strangeness of having both a First Minister, in Mr Dewar, and a Secretary of State for Scotland, in Dr Reid, who has 120 new civil servants. In a letter, I asked Dr Reid to explain what they would all be doing, but I have not yet received an answer. This debate has been most satisfactory, as many members have spoken with great experience of their own areas. I do not need to rehearse their well-argued cases. I am sorry that Jamie Stone has left the chamber, because I agreed with the points that he and Mary Scanlon made about the cost of fares and the failure of the ABIS. I would like to quote from a letter that Lord Sewel wrote to Jim Wallace on 18 February. He said: \"I can assure you and your constituents, however, that sufficient resources will remain applied to the ABIS to ensure that all outstanding commitments can be met, as well as accommodating any upsurge in applications which may emerge\". That is clear language. I do not think that anyone can argue that that is not the promise that was made. However, that promise is not being kept, with disastrous consequences. Like Jamie Stone, I could provide examples to illustrate that. I would like to say something about crofting. I represented the Highlands and Islands for 24 years in the European Parliament and have been to every one of the islands that I represented, except Papa Stour; I was not able to get there because of the weather. I know the islands pretty intimately. When I recently visited Shetland, the head of the crofting association there expressed to me a serious view that the Shetland crofters were beginning to develop. They felt that there was a plot to do away with crofting and the privileges attached to it under the legislation that was introduced so long ago by the Liberals. That is a real fear. Very often, European legislation is enforced with no attempt at reasonableness. I refer to the hot subject of sheep counts. The law was made for sheep that were nicely in a field, with a fence around them. The legislators did not seem to understand that our sheep heft to the hill. Generations of sheep insist on particular bits of hill, and it disturbs them a great deal if someone insists on bringing them away down slithery slopes to the count, which often takes place at a day's notice. If we on this bench were in the common grazing, I would have to bring my sheep slithering down the hill. Some of them might get killed on the way down, so that by the time I reached the bottom I might not have the number of sheep that I needed to qualify. I could not get the Scottish Office to realise that it could have obtained a derogation. All the arguments about how well the UK looks after Scottish interests in negotiations with Europe fade into utter nonsense when we consider matters such as the sheep count. I could not persuade the Scottish Office to take any action in a case where seven sheep slithered down a hill and were lost. Do members know how I eventually managed to get someone to intervene? It was not by raising the issue of cruelty to crofters. The minute that I pointed out the cruelty to the animals, everyone became sympathetic. The problem has still to be addressed. I must say that the regulations are not enforced unfairly in many parts of the Highlands and Islands, but in Shetland there are serious grievances.", "EditedTextHTML": "As we have had an anecdote from Ross and Cromarty, I will cite a remark by the Liberal member who was my sponsor, the late Alasdair Mackenzie—a most endearing man, whom everybody loved. On the possibility that members from Scotland would continue to go down to London after the establishment of the Scottish Parliament, he once said: \"What will they be doing down there? Just loafing about.\" I have always thought that that summed up what my party regards as the strangeness of having both a First Minister, in Mr Dewar, and a Secretary of State for Scotland, in Dr Reid, who has 120 new civil servants. In a letter, I asked Dr Reid to explain what they would all be doing, but I have not yet received an answer.

This debate has been most satisfactory, as many members have spoken with great experience of their own areas. I do not need to rehearse their well-argued cases. I am sorry that Jamie Stone has left the chamber, because I agreed with the points that he and Mary Scanlon made about the cost of fares and the failure of the ABIS. I would like to quote from a letter that Lord Sewel wrote to Jim Wallace on 18 February. He said:

\"I can assure you and your constituents, however, that sufficient resources will remain applied to the ABIS to ensure that all outstanding commitments can be met, as well as accommodating any upsurge in applications which may emerge\".

That is clear language. I do not think that anyone can argue that that is not the promise that was made. However, that promise is not being kept, with disastrous consequences. Like Jamie Stone, I could provide examples to illustrate that.

I would like to say something about crofting. I represented the Highlands and Islands for 24 years in the European Parliament and have been to every one of the islands that I represented, except Papa Stour; I was not able to get there because of the weather. I know the islands pretty intimately. When I recently visited Shetland, the head of the crofting association there expressed to me a serious view that the Shetland crofters were beginning to develop. They felt that there was a plot to do away with crofting and the privileges attached to it under the legislation that was introduced so long ago by the Liberals.

That is a real fear. Very often, European legislation is enforced with no attempt at reasonableness. I refer to the hot subject of sheep counts. The law was made for sheep that were nicely in a field, with a fence around them. The legislators did not seem to understand that our sheep heft to the hill. Generations of sheep insist on particular bits of hill, and it disturbs them a great deal if someone insists on bringing them away down slithery slopes to the count, which often takes place at a day's notice. If we on this bench were in the common grazing, I would have to bring my sheep slithering down the hill. Some of them might get killed on the way down, so that by the time I reached the bottom I might not have the number of sheep that I needed to qualify.

I could not get the Scottish Office to realise that it could have obtained a derogation. All the arguments about how well the UK looks after Scottish interests in negotiations with Europe fade into utter nonsense when we consider matters such as the sheep count. I could not persuade the Scottish Office to take any action in a case where seven sheep slithered down a hill and were lost. Do members know how I eventually managed to get someone to intervene? It was not by raising the issue of cruelty to crofters. The minute that I pointed out the cruelty to the animals, everyone became sympathetic. The problem has still to be addressed. I must say that the regulations are not enforced unfairly in many parts of the Highlands and Islands, but in Shetland there are serious grievances.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.498304+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1878E208P502C710625", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Dr Winnie", "ID": 1878, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Winnie Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 304.0, "ContributionID": 710625, "EditedText": "It is an improvement, but the problem is that a lot of discretion is left to the enforcers in different parts of Scotland. I conducted a survey in every common grazing in my area to get the measure of the situation. There are some hard cases. The common-grazing system of crofting is remarkable. For hundreds of years, crofters have voluntarily adopted a system of having only a sensible number of animals on a piece of land. I told Mr Fischler from the Commission about it and he said that such a programme might have saved the hill farmers of Greece who were lost during the rule of the colonels. We have a system that could be an example to Europe, yet crofters feel that they are under pressure. I do not know how I am doing for time.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is an improvement, but the problem is that a lot of discretion is left to the enforcers in different parts of Scotland. I conducted a survey in

every common grazing in my area to get the measure of the situation. There are some hard cases.

The common-grazing system of crofting is remarkable. For hundreds of years, crofters have voluntarily adopted a system of having only a sensible number of animals on a piece of land. I told Mr Fischler from the Commission about it and he said that such a programme might have saved the hill farmers of Greece who were lost during the rule of the colonels. We have a system that could be an example to Europe, yet crofters feel that they are under pressure.

I do not know how I am doing for time.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.498304+00:00" }, { "ID": "C710631", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 318.0, "ContributionID": 710631, "EditedText": "Oh, go on.", "EditedTextHTML": "Oh, go on.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.498304+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C710633", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Davidson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 322.0, "ContributionID": 710633, "EditedText": "I trust that the Presiding Officer will be generous enough to allow Mr Lyon time to carry on the story through the lost years of Labour government in Scotland, before this Parliament, when Labour, too, refused to take up agrimoney. Will Mr Lyon tell the chamber how much money Scotland's farmers were denied by that? Will he attack Labour for it?", "EditedTextHTML": "I trust that the Presiding Officer will be generous enough to allow Mr Lyon time to carry on the story through the lost years of Labour government in Scotland, before this Parliament, when Labour, too, refused to take up agrimoney. Will Mr Lyon tell the chamber how much money Scotland's farmers were denied by that? Will he attack Labour for it?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.498304+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C710635", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 326.0, "ContributionID": 710635, "EditedText": "This has been a difficult debate to time and balance for reasons that the business managers might like to address. Closing speeches will now have to be trimmed by one minute each to, respectively, seven, seven and nine minutes.", "EditedTextHTML": "This has been a difficult debate to time and balance for reasons that the business managers might like to address. Closing speeches will now have to be trimmed by one minute each to, respectively, seven, seven and nine minutes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.498304+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1892E34P73C710636", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Fergusson, Alex", "ID": 1892, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Fergusson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Fergusson (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 329.0, "ContributionID": 710636, "EditedText": "For that reason, I will not be able to take any interventions—unless I am in a good mood. I will see how I get on with time. It is a crying shame that the SNP, which is so keen to embrace the ideal of the new politics when it suits it, has ruined a perfectly good motion by inserting a section that embodies the old nitpicking, negative, \"let us have a go at every Government since the Act of Union\" attitude for which we know and love that party so well.", "EditedTextHTML": "For that reason, I will not be able to take any interventions—unless I am in a good mood. I will see how I get on with time.

It is a crying shame that the SNP, which is so keen to embrace the ideal of the new politics when it suits it, has ruined a perfectly good motion by inserting a section that embodies the old nitpicking, negative, \"let us have a go at every Government since the Act of Union\" attitude for which we know and love that party so well.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.498304+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1888E265P358C710637", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morgan, Alasdair", "ID": 1888, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Galloway and Upper Nithsdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morgan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alasdair Morgan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 331.0, "ContributionID": 710637, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.498304+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1888E265P358C710639", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morgan, Alasdair", "ID": 1888, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Galloway and Upper Nithsdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morgan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alasdair Morgan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 335.0, "ContributionID": 710639, "EditedText": "Surely Alex Fergusson does not describe the BSE crisis and responsibility for it as nit-picking?", "EditedTextHTML": "Surely Alex Fergusson does not describe the BSE crisis and responsibility for it as nit-picking?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.498304+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1892E34P73C710640", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Fergusson, Alex", "ID": 1892, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Fergusson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Fergusson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 337.0, "ContributionID": 710640, "EditedText": "Certainly not. I am describing the SNP as nit-picking. Conservative members would have supported the motion had it not contained the sadly vindictive and sniping section that our amendment would remove. That is not to excuse or absolve anyone, but to enter this debate in a forward-looking and positive fashion in the belief that the debate will benefit from moving forward. I do not want to give the impression that the SNP has a monopoly on misuse of the phraseology of the new politics; the Executive parties are just as guilty. Who can ever forget John McAllion pointing at the Opposition parties and stating in no uncertain terms that, \"Youse\"—a term that is becoming rather common—\"lot must shut up and listen\"? I have shut up and listened to the Executive amendment. Apart from its final sentiment—a determination \"to promote long-term sustainable development . . . throughout rural Scotland\", with which I am sure we all heartily agree—it is made of nothing but fine words and flannel. It is expressed in a way that smacks of complacency and self-congratulation and it will be of little comfort to people in rural Scotland who are increasingly of the opinion that the Executive has little or nothing for them. I am happy to sum up on the amendment that stands in my name. I should, perhaps, declare a vested interest to the chamber, as for the next three weeks at least I will still have an active interest in farming. At the end of this month, I will hand over the business to a tenant. I will feel a great sadness severing an interest that has given me a reasonable living and a great deal of pleasure for some 28 years, although my primary sentiment is one of relief—relief that I have successfully escaped from an industry that does not allow the same luxury to many others. Last week, I sold my last 21 ewes. At five years old, they were fit sheep, although—not unusually at that age—they were missing some teeth. Usually, they would have realised a price of £10 to £15 per head; I received a bid of £1.40 for each ewe. After deductions, I received a cheque for £4.20—with the haulage bill still to come. I was lucky—at least I got a bid. Many others are having to shoot and bury stock that they have nurtured and tended all their lives. Those are horrendous acts, which some members will have seen vividly portrayed on television last week. Recently—as we have heard—the Parliament has had representations from the pig and dairy sectors. I commend the representatives of those sectors for their initiative in visiting the Parliament. As Euan Robson said, the members who took the trouble to attend the briefings could not but fail to be moved by the spectacle of grown men almost reduced to tears as they described the nightmare that their businesses have become. Why should we bother about another industry in huge financial difficulties? I will explain. Four years ago, Scottish agriculture had a gross income of almost £600 million. Given the generally accepted multiplier of 2.5, that income was worth £2,100 million to the rural economy of Scotland. This year—although official figures have yet to be released—the gross income is generally expected to be well below £100 million and possibly as low as £75 million; that gives an input to the rural economy of a mere £350 million. Given that agricultural borrowings now total much more than £1 billion, in business terms it is time for Scottish agriculture to call in the receivers. Scottish agriculture's input to the rural economy has been cut by one eighth of its input in 1995-96. That is why in rural areas such as Dumfries and Galloway, where in 1997-98 agriculture contributed 23 per cent of the region's gross domestic product, words such as depression, despair and collapse are by no means too strong, as the minister suggested earlier. My colleagues have touched on other issues, such as the fuel escalator, affordable housing, rural transport and tourism, so there is no need for me to elaborate; I commend their words to the chamber. We also share concerns about e- commerce, post offices, organic aid and other opportunities that have been mentioned in today's debate. I would like to finish by repeating what I have said before. I mean this in the spirit of the new politics—if such a thing still exists. There was, and is, a deeply held scepticism in many sectors of rural Scotland that the Parliament will do nothing for them. Thus far, neither Executive policy nor Labour's attendance at today's debate—at times there have been as few as five members—has done anything to alleviate that scepticism. I ask the Executive to think beyond fine phrases and to address the real issues facing rural Scotland. The Executive must consider how it can best encourage the use of the primary products of rural Scotland—meat, milk, timber and tourism—to create jobs in the areas where they are produced. Christine Grahame and Euan Robson also touched on that topic. The Executive must consider how best to encourage the branding, labelling and marketing of Scottish products to enhance the end prices of those high-quality products. Furthermore, it must consider how to promote our country at home and abroad. I acknowledge that a start has been made, although there is an enormous amount still to be done. The Executive must also protect our producers by giving them a much called for level playing field to combat unfair competition and over-regulation. If the Executive can see past the smokescreen of its own verbosity and begin to deliver on those fronts, it will be worthy of support and will receive it. Until then, I encourage the proposers of the motion to accept our positive, forward-looking and practical amendment, which I heartily commend to the whole chamber.", "EditedTextHTML": "Certainly not. I am describing the SNP as nit-picking.

Conservative members would have supported the motion had it not contained the sadly vindictive and sniping section that our amendment would remove. That is not to excuse or absolve anyone, but to enter this debate in a forward-looking and positive fashion in the belief that the debate will benefit from moving forward.

I do not want to give the impression that the SNP has a monopoly on misuse of the phraseology of the new politics; the Executive parties are just as guilty. Who can ever forget John McAllion pointing at the Opposition parties and stating in no uncertain terms that, \"Youse\"—a term that is becoming rather common—\"lot must shut up and listen\"?

I have shut up and listened to the Executive amendment. Apart from its final sentiment—a determination

\"to promote long-term sustainable development . . . throughout rural Scotland\",

with which I am sure we all heartily agree—it is made of nothing but fine words and flannel. It is expressed in a way that smacks of complacency and self-congratulation and it will be of little comfort to people in rural Scotland who are increasingly of the opinion that the Executive has little or nothing for them.

I am happy to sum up on the amendment that stands in my name. I should, perhaps, declare a vested interest to the chamber, as for the next three weeks at least I will still have an active interest in farming. At the end of this month, I will hand over the business to a tenant.

I will feel a great sadness severing an interest that has given me a reasonable living and a great deal of pleasure for some 28 years, although my primary sentiment is one of relief—relief that I have successfully escaped from an industry that does not allow the same luxury to many others.

Last week, I sold my last 21 ewes. At five years old, they were fit sheep, although—not unusually at that age—they were missing some teeth. Usually, they would have realised a price of £10 to £15 per head; I received a bid of £1.40 for each ewe. After deductions, I received a cheque for £4.20—with the haulage bill still to come. I was lucky—at least I got a bid. Many others are having to shoot and bury stock that they have nurtured and tended all their lives. Those are horrendous acts, which some members will have seen vividly portrayed on television last week.

Recently—as we have heard—the Parliament has had representations from the pig and dairy sectors. I commend the representatives of those sectors for their initiative in visiting the Parliament. As Euan Robson said, the members who took the trouble to attend the briefings could not but fail to be moved by the spectacle of grown men almost reduced to tears as they described the nightmare that their businesses have become.

Why should we bother about another industry in huge financial difficulties? I will explain. Four years ago, Scottish agriculture had a gross income of almost £600 million. Given the generally accepted multiplier of 2.5, that income was worth £2,100 million to the rural economy of Scotland. This year—although official figures have yet to be released—the gross income is generally expected to be well below £100 million and possibly as low as £75 million; that gives an input to the rural economy of a mere £350 million.

Given that agricultural borrowings now total much more than £1 billion, in business terms it is time for Scottish agriculture to call in the receivers. Scottish agriculture's input to the rural economy has been cut by one eighth of its input in 1995-96. That is why in rural areas such as Dumfries and Galloway, where in 1997-98 agriculture contributed 23 per cent of the region's gross domestic product, words such as depression, despair and collapse are by no means too strong, as the minister suggested earlier.

My colleagues have touched on other issues, such as the fuel escalator, affordable housing, rural transport and tourism, so there is no need for me to elaborate; I commend their words to the chamber. We also share concerns about e- commerce, post offices, organic aid and other opportunities that have been mentioned in today's debate.

I would like to finish by repeating what I have said before. I mean this in the spirit of the new politics—if such a thing still exists. There was, and is, a deeply held scepticism in many sectors of rural Scotland that the Parliament will do nothing for them. Thus far, neither Executive policy nor Labour's attendance at today's debate—at times there have been as few as five members—has done anything to alleviate that scepticism.

I ask the Executive to think beyond fine phrases and to address the real issues facing rural Scotland. The Executive must consider how it can best encourage the use of the primary products of rural Scotland—meat, milk, timber and tourism—to create jobs in the areas where they are produced. Christine Grahame and Euan Robson also touched on that topic.

The Executive must consider how best to encourage the branding, labelling and marketing of Scottish products to enhance the end prices of those high-quality products. Furthermore, it must consider how to promote our country at home and abroad. I acknowledge that a start has been made, although there is an enormous amount still to be done. The Executive must also protect our producers by giving them a much called for level playing field to combat unfair competition and over-regulation.

If the Executive can see past the smokescreen of its own verbosity and begin to deliver on those fronts, it will be worthy of support and will receive it. Until then, I encourage the proposers of the motion to accept our positive, forward-looking and practical amendment, which I heartily commend to the whole chamber.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.498304+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1985E207P501C710646", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hamilton, Mr Duncan", "ID": 1985, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Hamilton rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 350.0, "ContributionID": 710646, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.498304+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C710651", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ross Finnie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 360.0, "ContributionID": 710651, "EditedText": "Christine Grahame pointed out that, in parts of Scotland, we could do with other abattoirs to deal with particular processes. Her other point was that, by having an abattoir, we would automatically get value, but that is not the case. At the moment, even where we have abattoirs, far too much of livestock product is put into primary products and shipped elsewhere to be processed—the added value therefore ends up in Birmingham or further south. My plan is to do the reverse. We want not only abattoirs, but processing capacity, in Scotland so the value added can come back up the chain and our primary producers get the advantage of it. The agricultural business improvement scheme has been mentioned. Even Mr Morgan was gracious enough to say that I did not have to take responsibility for the decisions of previous Administrations. Although £23 million was allocated to ABIS over the five-year programme, losses have been incurred because of the euro situation. We have spent more than £17 million and have £1.2 million left. We now find ourselves in an incredible position. Whereas the annual average uptake of applications was between 2 million and 3 million, in the past year we have received 15 million.", "EditedTextHTML": "Christine Grahame pointed out that, in parts of Scotland, we could do with other abattoirs to deal with particular processes. Her other point was that, by having an abattoir, we would automatically get value, but that is not the case. At the moment, even where we have abattoirs, far too much of livestock product is put into primary products and shipped elsewhere to be processed—the added value therefore ends up in Birmingham or further south. My plan is to do the reverse. We want not only abattoirs, but processing capacity, in Scotland so the value added can come back up the chain and our primary producers get the advantage of it.

The agricultural business improvement scheme has been mentioned. Even Mr Morgan was gracious enough to say that I did not have to take responsibility for the decisions of previous Administrations. Although £23 million was allocated to ABIS over the five-year programme, losses have been incurred because of the euro situation. We have spent more than £17 million and have £1.2 million left. We now find ourselves in an incredible position. Whereas the annual average uptake of applications was between 2 million and 3 million, in the past year we have received 15 million.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.498304+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1985E207P501C710652", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hamilton, Mr Duncan", "ID": 1985, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Hamilton: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 362.0, "ContributionID": 710652, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.498304+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710659", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 377.0, "ContributionID": 710659, "EditedText": "No, he is in his last minute.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, he is in his last minute.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.498304+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C710661", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 381.0, "ContributionID": 710661, "EditedText": "I wondered whether Richard would, in his summing up, reflect the fact that, some moments ago, interest rates were raised by a quarter of a per cent. Surely that will be enormously damaging for rural Scotland and we should condemn it in this debate. Applause.", "EditedTextHTML": "I wondered whether Richard would, in his summing up, reflect the fact that, some moments ago, interest rates were raised by a quarter of a per cent. Surely that will be enormously damaging for rural Scotland and we should condemn it in this debate. [Applause.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.498304+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2117E79P104C710663", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macdonald, Lewis", "ID": 2117, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lewis Macdonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Lewis Macdonald: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 385.0, "ContributionID": 710663, "EditedText": "Will Richard Lochhead give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Richard Lochhead give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.498304+00:00" }, { "ID": "C710666", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26989, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 389.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 389.0, "ID": 26989, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 392.0, "ContributionID": 710666, "EditedText": "Motion moved,", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion moved,

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.498304+00:00" }, { "ID": "C710667", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26989, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 389.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 389.0, "ID": 26989, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 393.0, "ContributionID": 710667, "EditedText": "That the Parliament agrees: (a) the following programme of business - Wednesday 10 November 1999 2.30 pm Time for Reflection followed by Ministerial Statement followed by Debate on an Executive motion on Working Together in Europe followed by Parliamentary Bureau motions", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament agrees: (a) the following programme of business - Wednesday 10 November 1999 2.30 pm Time for Reflection followed by Ministerial Statement followed by Debate on an Executive motion on Working Together in Europe followed by Parliamentary Bureau motions

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.498304+00:00" }, { "ID": "C710673", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26989, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 389.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 389.0, "ID": 26989, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 399.0, "ContributionID": 710673, "EditedText": "Wednesday 17 November 1999", "EditedTextHTML": "Wednesday 17 November 1999

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.498304+00:00" }, { "ID": "C710674", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26989, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 389.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 389.0, "ID": 26989, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 400.0, "ContributionID": 710674, "EditedText": "2.30 pm Time for Reflection followed by Debate on an Executive motion on Child Care Strategy followed by Parliamentary Bureau motions", "EditedTextHTML": "2.30 pm Time for Reflection followed by Debate on an Executive motion on Child Care Strategy followed by Parliamentary Bureau motions

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.498304+00:00" }, { "ID": "C710677", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26989, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 389.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 389.0, "ID": 26989, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 403.0, "ContributionID": 710677, "EditedText": "3.00 pm Open Question Time followed by, no later than 3.15 pm Executive Business", "EditedTextHTML": "3.00 pm Open Question Time followed by, no later than 3.15 pm Executive Business

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.498304+00:00" }, { "ID": "C710678", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26989, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 389.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 389.0, "ID": 26989, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 404.0, "ContributionID": 710678, "EditedText": "5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business (b), the following dates by which committees should make any recommendations on instruments or draft instruments: the European Committee to report to the Rural Affairs Committee by 22 November 1999 on The Organic Aid (Scotland) Amendment Regulations 1999, (SSI 1999/107) the Subordinate Legislation Committee to report by 9 November 1999 on The Draft Maximum Number of Judges (Scotland) Order 1999.", "EditedTextHTML": "5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business (b), the following dates by which committees should make any recommendations on instruments or draft instruments: the European Committee to report to the Rural Affairs Committee by 22 November 1999 on The Organic Aid (Scotland) Amendment Regulations 1999, (SSI 1999/107) the Subordinate Legislation Committee to report by 9 November 1999 on The Draft Maximum Number of Judges (Scotland) Order 1999.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.498304+00:00" }, { "ID": "C710683", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26989, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 389.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 389.0, "ID": 26989, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 411.0, "ContributionID": 710683, "EditedText": "On resuming—", "EditedTextHTML": "On resuming—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1762E216P508C710688", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Trident", "QuestionHeadingID": 26993, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 421.0, "DisplayOrder": 421.0, "ID": 26993, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Elder, Dorothy-Grace", "ID": 1762, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 424.0, "ContributionID": 710688, "EditedText": "Will the minister explain why he does not consider such representations to be necessary, in view of the fact that he is defying the wishes of 85 per cent of the Scottish people, the Scottish Trades Union Congress and all the major parties—including the Scottish Labour party, which has voted against Trident? Why is he so obedient to the wishes of Mr Blair?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister explain why he does not consider such representations to be necessary, in view of the fact that he is defying the wishes of 85 per cent of the Scottish people, the Scottish Trades Union Congress and all the

major parties—including the Scottish Labour party, which has voted against Trident? Why is he so obedient to the wishes of Mr Blair?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1770E82P108C710690", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Landfill Sites", "QuestionHeadingID": 26994, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 428.0, "DisplayOrder": 428.0, "ID": 26994, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Thomson, Elaine", "ID": 1770, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Thomson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "3. Elaine Thomson (Aberdeen North) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 429.0, "ContributionID": 710690, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it plans to review the current planning regulations with respect to landfill sites and their proximity to residential accommodation. (S1O-543)", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it plans to review the current planning regulations with respect to landfill sites and their proximity to residential accommodation. (S1O-543)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C710695", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Scottish Prison Service", "QuestionHeadingID": 26995, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 437.0, "DisplayOrder": 437.0, "ID": 26995, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 440.0, "ContributionID": 710695, "EditedText": "Can the minister say whether he knew those figures at the time of the announcement that £13 million was being splashed—Laughter.—sorry, slashed from the prisons budget?", "EditedTextHTML": "Can the minister say whether he knew those figures at the time of the announcement that £13 million was being splashed—[Laughter.]—sorry, slashed from the prisons budget?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2134E160P198C710699", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Breast Cancer", "QuestionHeadingID": 26996, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 448.0, "DisplayOrder": 448.0, "ID": 26996, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McMahon, Michael", "ID": 2134, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton North and Bellshill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael McMahon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "5. Mr Michael McMahon (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 449.0, "ContributionID": 710699, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will identify the factors that have resulted in the improvements in survival of breast cancer patients in Scotland. (S1O-522) The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): The latest figures show that 74.9 per cent of women who are diagnosed as having breast cancer will still be alive five years after diagnosis. That compares with 66.3 per cent of such women in 1986-88. The improving prospects for breast cancer patients in Scotland are likely to be due to a number of factors, which include the effects of screening, early diagnosis and advances in treatment. Mr McMahon: I thank the minister for that answer. Is the minister aware of the current review of Tamoxifen, the modern cancer-combating drug? It is known to have a number of side effects in some cases, including thrombosis, cardiac problems, cancer of the womb and liver cancer. Does she know when that review is expected to report? Has she any further information on the safety of that drug?", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will identify the factors that have resulted in the improvements in survival of breast cancer patients in Scotland. (S1O-522) The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): The latest figures show that

74.9 per cent of women who are diagnosed as having breast cancer will still be alive five years after diagnosis. That compares with 66.3 per cent of such women in 1986-88. The improving prospects for breast cancer patients in Scotland are likely to be due to a number of factors, which include the effects of screening, early diagnosis and advances in treatment. Mr McMahon: I thank the minister for that answer. Is the minister aware of the current review of Tamoxifen, the modern cancer-combating drug? It is known to have a number of side effects in some cases, including thrombosis, cardiac problems, cancer of the womb and liver cancer. Does she know when that review is expected to report? Has she any further information on the safety of that drug?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C710712", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Public Service Job Relocation", "QuestionHeadingID": 26999, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 473.0, "DisplayOrder": 473.0, "ID": 26999, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 478.0, "ContributionID": 710712, "EditedText": "We should always look for opportunities where the criteria are properly met. A considerable number of public bodies in the Highlands and Islands are creating jobs in the region, and the partnership programme in Inverness is just one example. Jobs are also created through the local enterprise company network all over the Highlands and Islands. Whether it is possible to have further devolution and relocation is a matter for Highlands and Islands Enterprise to consider. The Executive is anxious to encourage it, although one must always remember the importance of lines of communication and the interests of the staff, who may be well settled where they are and may have family responsibilities.", "EditedTextHTML": "We should always look for opportunities where the criteria are properly met. A considerable number of public bodies in the Highlands and Islands are creating jobs in the region, and the partnership programme in Inverness is just one example. Jobs are also created through the local enterprise company network all over the Highlands and Islands. Whether it is possible to have further devolution and relocation is a matter for Highlands and Islands Enterprise to consider. The Executive is anxious to encourage it, although one must always remember the importance of lines of communication and the interests of the staff, who may be well settled where they are and may have

family responsibilities.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2159E115P214C710713", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Stobhill Hospital", "QuestionHeadingID": 27000, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 480.0, "DisplayOrder": 480.0, "ID": 27000, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Martin, Paul", "ID": 2159, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Springburn" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Paul Martin", "SpeakerDisplayName": "9. Paul Martin (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 481.0, "ContributionID": 710713, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will call for an independent consultant to carry out a design survey regarding the proposal to reduce the size of the ambulatory care and diagnostic unit at Stobhill hospital. (S1O-521)", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will call for an independent consultant to carry out a design survey regarding the proposal to reduce the size of the ambulatory care and diagnostic unit at Stobhill hospital. (S1O-521)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1768E72P274C710721", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Pig Industry", "QuestionHeadingID": 27002, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 496.0, "DisplayOrder": 496.0, "ID": 27002, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Murray, Elaine", "ID": 1768, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumfries" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Murray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Murray: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 499.0, "ContributionID": 710721, "EditedText": "I am grateful to the minister for his reply, and to the drawer for eventually picking out one of my questions. Last week, the minister was able to announce a £5 million UK-wide aid package to promote the marketing of pigmeat. Could he provide more detail of how that will operate and, in particular, whether it will promote Scottish and UK pork in home markets, using animal welfare considerations in addition to quality considerations?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful to the minister for his reply, and to the drawer for eventually picking out one of my questions. Last week, the minister was able to announce a £5 million UK-wide aid package to promote the marketing of pigmeat. Could he provide more detail of how that will operate and, in particular, whether it will promote Scottish and UK pork in home markets, using animal welfare considerations in addition to quality considerations?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C710722", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Pig Industry", "QuestionHeadingID": 27002, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 496.0, "DisplayOrder": 496.0, "ID": 27002, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ross Finnie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 501.0, "ContributionID": 710722, "EditedText": "I can confirm that the £5 million pig package—if that is the right phrase—will be applicable across the UK. It is important, however, in the light of the launch earlier this year of the Scottish pork quality mark, which differentiates home products and Scottish products from imports, that our proportionate share of that £5 million will be devoted exclusively to promoting Scottish products. I hope that that will greatly assist the industry.", "EditedTextHTML": "I can confirm that the £5 million pig package—if that is the right phrase—will be applicable across the UK. It is important, however, in the light of the launch earlier this year of the Scottish pork quality mark, which differentiates home products and Scottish products from imports, that our proportionate share of that £5 million will be devoted exclusively to promoting Scottish products. I hope that that will greatly assist the industry.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C710724", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "New Opportunities Fund", "QuestionHeadingID": 27003, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 503.0, "DisplayOrder": 503.0, "ID": 27003, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 506.0, "ContributionID": 710724, "EditedText": "The New Opportunities Fund Board, which is responsible for that new initiative, has set up a robust bidding and assessment process, which is expected to be completed by summer 2001. We believe that that will ensure that applications are soundly based and that resources are used effectively to provide the greatest benefit for people with cancer.", "EditedTextHTML": "The New Opportunities Fund Board, which is responsible for that new initiative, has set up a robust bidding and assessment

process, which is expected to be completed by summer 2001. We believe that that will ensure that applications are soundly based and that resources are used effectively to provide the greatest benefit for people with cancer.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C710728", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Ninewells Hospital", "QuestionHeadingID": 27004, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 512.0, "DisplayOrder": 512.0, "ID": 27004, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 515.0, "ContributionID": 710728, "EditedText": "A short-life working group has been set up under the chairmanship of the chief medical officer, to review the overall provision of neurosurgical services in Scotland. It will consider the needs of Dundee.", "EditedTextHTML": "A short-life working group has been set up under the chairmanship of the chief medical officer, to review the overall provision of neurosurgical services in Scotland. It will consider the needs of Dundee.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C710732", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Glasgow Council Housing", "QuestionHeadingID": 27005, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 521.0, "DisplayOrder": 521.0, "ID": 27005, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Communities (Ms Wendy Alexander): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 524.0, "ContributionID": 710732, "EditedText": "The group has been established with the following remit: \"to progress the development of a new housing partnership for Glasgow which will have at its core the transfer of Glasgow's council housing into community ownership, will create sustainable communities, assist the regeneration of the City and create a more inclusive Glasgow for the new millennium. Final decisions will be subject to extensive tenant consultation. A majority of tenants (voting in a ballot) will be required before the proposal can proceed.\"", "EditedTextHTML": "The group has been established with the following remit:

\"to progress the development of a new housing partnership for Glasgow which will have at its core the transfer of Glasgow's council housing into community ownership, will create sustainable communities, assist the regeneration of the City and create a more inclusive Glasgow for the new millennium. Final decisions will be subject to extensive tenant consultation. A majority of tenants (voting in a ballot) will be required before the proposal can proceed.\"

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "C710743", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Blood Donation", "QuestionHeadingID": 27006, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 530.0, "DisplayOrder": 530.0, "ID": 27006, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 547.0, "ContributionID": 710743, "EditedText": "Sit down.", "EditedTextHTML": "Sit down.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710744", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Blood Donation", "QuestionHeadingID": 27006, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 530.0, "DisplayOrder": 530.0, "ID": 27006, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 549.0, "ContributionID": 710744, "EditedText": "Order.", "EditedTextHTML": "Order.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C710745", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Blood Donation", "QuestionHeadingID": 27006, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 530.0, "DisplayOrder": 530.0, "ID": 27006, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 551.0, "ContributionID": 710745, "EditedText": "I congratulate Miss Goldie on her nuptials and on her creative line in questioning, and whole-heartedly endorse her plea to members.", "EditedTextHTML": "I congratulate Miss Goldie on her nuptials and on her creative line in questioning, and whole-heartedly endorse her plea to members.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2223E203P342C710746", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Marine Protection", "QuestionHeadingID": 27007, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 553.0, "DisplayOrder": 553.0, "ID": 27007, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scott, Tavish", "ID": 2223, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Shetland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tavish Scott", "SpeakerDisplayName": "16. Tavish Scott (Shetland) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 554.0, "ContributionID": 710746, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive, further to the answer to question S1W-385 by the Minister for Transport and the Environment on 9 August 1999, whether it has yet received advice from its nature conservation advisers and whether Scottish Natural Heritage has any plans to designate the seas around Fair isle as a marine special protection area under the birds directive. (S1O523) The Minister for Transport and the Environment (Sarah Boyack): No. The Scottish Executive has not yet received advice from its nature conservation advisers on the identification of marine special protection areas under the birds directive, so there are no plans at present to classify the seas around Fair isle as a marine SPA.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive, further to the answer to question S1W-385 by the Minister for Transport and the Environment on 9 August 1999, whether it has yet received advice from its nature conservation advisers and whether Scottish Natural Heritage has any plans to designate the seas around Fair isle as a marine special protection area under the birds directive. (S1O523) The Minister for Transport and the Environment (Sarah Boyack): No. The Scottish Executive has not yet received advice from its nature conservation advisers on the identification of marine special protection areas under the birds directive, so there are no plans at present to classify the seas around Fair isle as a marine SPA.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2223E203P342C710747", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Marine Protection", "QuestionHeadingID": 27007, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 553.0, "DisplayOrder": 553.0, "ID": 27007, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scott, Tavish", "ID": 2223, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Shetland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tavish Scott", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tavish Scott: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 556.0, "ContributionID": 710747, "EditedText": "Does the minister accept that the local community and fishing and environmental organisations are working towards the designation of Fair isle as a marine SPA? Will she support the island's application to be awarded a European diploma by the Council of Europe on the basis of the island being declared a special marine area?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the minister accept that the local community and fishing and environmental organisations are working towards the designation of Fair isle as a marine SPA? Will she support the island's application to be awarded a European diploma by the Council of Europe on the basis of the island being declared a special marine area?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710754", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Pig Industry", "QuestionHeadingID": 27009, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "DisplayOrder": 567.0, "ID": 27009, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 572.0, "ContributionID": 710754, "EditedText": "There does not have to be a supplementary, but if there is one, we will take it.", "EditedTextHTML": "There does not have to be a supplementary, but if there is one, we will take it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C710756", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Pig Industry", "QuestionHeadingID": 27009, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "DisplayOrder": 567.0, "ID": 27009, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ross Finnie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 576.0, "ContributionID": 710756, "EditedText": "I am not sure that that supplementary requires any reply, other than to endorse what was said.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am not sure that that supplementary requires any reply, other than to endorse what was said.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1873E89P171C710759", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Youth Services", "QuestionHeadingID": 27010, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 580.0, "DisplayOrder": 580.0, "ID": 27010, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jackson, Dr Sylvia", "ID": 1873, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Stirling" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sylvia Jackson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Jackson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 583.0, "ContributionID": 710759, "EditedText": "Would the minister be willing to visit Off the Record and The Corner, to hear at first hand of some of the financial difficulties that those organisations are having?", "EditedTextHTML": "Would the minister be willing to visit Off the Record and The Corner, to hear at first hand of some of the financial difficulties that those organisations are having?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C710766", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Council of the Isles", "QuestionHeadingID": 27012, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 596.0, "DisplayOrder": 596.0, "ID": 27012, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Finance (Mr Jack McConnell): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 599.0, "ContributionID": 710766, "EditedText": "Strand 3 of the Belfast agreement envisages the establishment of a British-Irish council and makes various provisions for its working arrangements. A treaty providing for the council's establishment was signed in Dublin on 8 March. The council will come into operation when powers are devolved to the Northern Ireland Assembly. In the interim, some preparatory discussions have been taking place at official level.", "EditedTextHTML": "Strand 3 of the Belfast agreement envisages the establishment of a British-Irish council and makes various provisions for its working arrangements. A treaty providing for the council's establishment was signed in Dublin on 8 March. The council will come into operation when powers are devolved to the Northern Ireland Assembly. In the interim, some preparatory discussions have been taking place at official level.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1931E120P189C710769", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Scotland House", "QuestionHeadingID": 27013, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 605.0, "DisplayOrder": 605.0, "ID": 27013, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Muldoon, Bristow", "ID": 1931, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Livingston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bristow Muldoon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "22. Bristow Muldoon (Livingston) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 606.0, "ContributionID": 710769, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what role it envisages the establishment of Scotland House playing in promoting the interests of Scotland within Europe. (S1O-526) The Minister for Finance (Mr Jack McConnell): Scotland House acts as the focal point in Brussels for a mix of Scottish organisations, including the Executive, and many others from the public, private and voluntary sectors. We in the Executive see its establishment as playing an important role in promoting the interests of Scotland within Europe. A good example of its role was Scotland Week, from 11 to 15 October, which was hosted at Scotland House and was a week of business, cultural and social events to promote a positive awareness and understanding of Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what role it envisages the establishment of Scotland House playing in promoting the interests of Scotland within Europe. (S1O-526) The Minister for Finance (Mr Jack McConnell): Scotland House acts as the focal point in Brussels for a mix of Scottish organisations, including the Executive, and many others from the public, private and voluntary sectors. We in the Executive see its establishment as playing an important role in promoting the interests of Scotland within Europe. A good example of its role was Scotland Week, from 11 to 15 October, which was hosted at Scotland House and was a week of business, cultural and social events to promote a positive awareness and understanding of Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1931E120P189C710770", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Scotland House", "QuestionHeadingID": 27013, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 605.0, "DisplayOrder": 605.0, "ID": 27013, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Muldoon, Bristow", "ID": 1931, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Livingston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bristow Muldoon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bristow Muldoon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 608.0, "ContributionID": 710770, "EditedText": "Does the minister agree that the approach taken by the Scottish Executive of co-operation with our partners in Europe is the best way forward for the interests of Scotland, as opposed to the isolationist approach increasingly adopted—Interruption.—not by the SNP, but by the Conservatives?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the minister agree that the approach taken by the Scottish Executive of co-operation with our partners in Europe is the best way forward for the interests of Scotland, as opposed to the isolationist approach increasingly adopted—[Interruption.]—not by the SNP, but by the Conservatives?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C710771", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Scotland House", "QuestionHeadingID": 27013, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 605.0, "DisplayOrder": 605.0, "ID": 27013, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 610.0, "ContributionID": 710771, "EditedText": "I would not want to interfere with our colleagues in the SNP agreeing with the Conservatives' isolationist approach. The approach taken by the Executive is a good one for Scotland. It allows us to have both the benefits of direct involvement in Europe and the clout that comes with being part of one of the bigger member states. That is in stark contrast to the way that Scotland would be isolated by the policy of the nationalist party and the way that Britain would be isolated by the policy of the Tories.", "EditedTextHTML": "I would not want to interfere with our colleagues in the SNP agreeing with the Conservatives' isolationist approach. The approach taken by the Executive is a good one for

Scotland. It allows us to have both the benefits of direct involvement in Europe and the clout that comes with being part of one of the bigger member states. That is in stark contrast to the way that Scotland would be isolated by the policy of the nationalist party and the way that Britain would be isolated by the policy of the Tories.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C710773", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27014, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 612.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27015, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 613.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27016, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 614.0, "DisplayOrder": 614.0, "ID": 27016, "ParentID": 27015 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 617.0, "ContributionID": 710773, "EditedText": "Yesterday, by coincidence, not just the First Minister but all four Labour MPs who are ministers in the coalition went down to London to vote through cuts in incapacity benefit. Were those four ministers voting under ministerial or collective responsibility, or were they, in London, free to exercise their individual consciences as back benchers?", "EditedTextHTML": "Yesterday, by coincidence, not just the First Minister but all four Labour MPs who are ministers in the coalition went down to London to vote through cuts in incapacity benefit. Were those four ministers voting under ministerial or collective responsibility, or were they, in London, free to exercise their individual consciences as back benchers?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710776", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27014, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 612.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27015, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 613.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27016, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 614.0, "DisplayOrder": 614.0, "ID": 27016, "ParentID": 27015 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 623.0, "ContributionID": 710776, "EditedText": "I must be clear that we are stepping over the boundary of what is a reserved matter. The first question was in order but the second is asking about the merits of a subject that is reserved for another place. If Mr Salmond would like to ask a different question, he should carry on.", "EditedTextHTML": "I must be clear that we are stepping over the boundary of what is a reserved matter. The first question was in order but the second is asking about the merits of a subject that is reserved for another place. If Mr Salmond would like to ask a different question, he should carry on.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C710780", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27014, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 612.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27015, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 613.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27016, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 614.0, "DisplayOrder": 614.0, "ID": 27016, "ParentID": 27015 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 631.0, "ContributionID": 710780, "EditedText": "The First Minister has a wider responsibility to this Parliament, where a majority of members certainly oppose the cuts in incapacity benefit. The First Minister was feted as a head of state last Friday in Dublin. Last night he was lobby fodder in London. Should the First Minister of Scotland go down to London and act like Tony Blair's poodle in cutting incapacity benefit?", "EditedTextHTML": "The First Minister has a wider responsibility to this Parliament, where a majority of members certainly oppose the cuts in incapacity benefit. The First Minister was feted as a head of state last Friday in Dublin. Last night he was lobby fodder in London. Should the First Minister of Scotland go down to London and act like Tony Blair's poodle in cutting incapacity benefit?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C710783", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27014, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 612.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27015, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 613.0, "QuestionHeading": "Law and Order", "QuestionHeadingID": 27017, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 635.0, "DisplayOrder": 635.0, "ID": 27017, "ParentID": 27015 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice (Mr Jim Wallace): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 638.0, "ContributionID": 710783, "EditedText": "Our priorities for law and order are set out in our programme for government. We are committed to combating crime and drugs in our communities and to supporting the victims of crime.", "EditedTextHTML": "Our priorities for law and order are set out in our programme for government. We are committed to combating crime and drugs in our communities and to supporting the victims of crime.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C710786", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27014, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 612.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27015, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 613.0, "QuestionHeading": "Law and Order", "QuestionHeadingID": 27017, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 635.0, "DisplayOrder": 635.0, "ID": 27017, "ParentID": 27015 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 644.0, "ContributionID": 710786, "EditedText": "The Deputy First Minister is predicting fewer prisoners in our prisons because this Executive is soft when it comes to sentencing policy. Against a backcloth of increases in every category of crime that was recorded during the last year for which figures are available, this Executive is cutting funding for prisons, is cutting funding in real terms for victims and victim support, and has cut the number of police officers on the beat. Is that a record of which Mr Wallace is proud, and does it not compare ill with falling crime rates over the last seven years of Conservative government, to which the 2,000 extra police officers whom we put on the beat made a major contribution?", "EditedTextHTML": "The Deputy First Minister is predicting fewer prisoners in our prisons because this Executive is soft when it comes to sentencing policy. Against a backcloth of increases in every category of crime that was recorded during the last year for which figures are available, this Executive is cutting funding for prisons, is cutting funding in real terms for victims and victim support, and has cut the number of police officers on the beat. Is that a record of which Mr Wallace is proud, and does it not compare ill with falling crime rates over the last seven years of Conservative government, to which the 2,000 extra police officers whom we put on the beat made a major contribution?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1768E72P274C710792", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27014, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 612.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27015, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 613.0, "QuestionHeading": "Law and Order", "QuestionHeadingID": 27017, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 635.0, "DisplayOrder": 635.0, "ID": 27017, "ParentID": 27015 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Murray, Elaine", "ID": 1768, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumfries" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Murray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Elaine Murray (Dumfries) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 656.0, "ContributionID": 710792, "EditedText": "In the light of recent announcements on the reallocation of the underspend in the Prison Service and on possible new approaches to youth crime, will the Deputy First Minister say what effects, if any, there will be on Scotland's young offenders institutes?", "EditedTextHTML": "In the light of recent announcements on the reallocation of the underspend in the Prison Service and on possible new approaches to youth crime, will the Deputy First Minister say what effects, if any, there will be on Scotland's young offenders institutes?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C710803", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27014, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 612.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27015, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 613.0, "QuestionHeading": "Joint Working", "QuestionHeadingID": 27018, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 664.0, "DisplayOrder": 664.0, "ID": 27018, "ParentID": 27015 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bruce Crawford (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 679.0, "ContributionID": 710803, "EditedText": "Will the minister help to clear up the mystery of what has happened to the community planning initiative? Prior to the election in May, many authorities were asked to take forward community planning as pathfinder authorities, recognising the democratic authority of those local authorities.", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister help to clear up the mystery of what has happened to the community planning initiative? Prior to the election in May, many authorities were asked to take forward community planning as pathfinder authorities, recognising the democratic authority of those local authorities.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710809", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27014, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 612.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27015, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 613.0, "QuestionHeading": "Joint Working", "QuestionHeadingID": 27018, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 664.0, "DisplayOrder": 664.0, "ID": 27018, "ParentID": 27015 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 691.0, "ContributionID": 710809, "EditedText": "I will not answer that immediately, but I will look into it.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will not answer that immediately, but I will look into it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710815", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 704.0, "ContributionID": 710815, "EditedText": "We turn to the statement. I remind members that this is a two-stage process. The statement will be with questions for clarification only, followed by a debate on the statement.", "EditedTextHTML": "We turn to the statement. I remind members that this is a two-stage process. The statement will be with questions for clarification only, followed by a debate on the statement.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710825", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 725.0, "ContributionID": 710825, "EditedText": "I am sorry—I should have taken the front-bench questions first.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry—I should have taken the front-bench questions first.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2112E192P495C710826", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacAskill, Kenny", "ID": 2112, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenny MacAskill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Kenny MacAskill (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 727.0, "ContributionID": 710826, "EditedText": "Does the minister rule out tolls on new or existing roads in Scotland?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the minister rule out tolls on new or existing roads in Scotland?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C710819", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 713.0, "ContributionID": 710819, "EditedText": "I thought that the minister would take questions on points of information.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thought that the minister would take questions on points of information.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710822", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 719.0, "ContributionID": 710822, "EditedText": "I ask for members' help. I have asked the clerk to clear the screens completely of names, because a very large number of members had pressed their buttons. I want to make it clear again that members who are waiting to speak in the debate should not press their buttons just now. The only members who should do so are those who wish to ask brief questions for clarification. I will insist on that; I will not allow a debate to start during question time. I repeat: brief questions for clarification only. Please stick by the rule. I will stop anybody who does not. My screen is filling with names—it will be impossible to accommodate everyone. The names have now gone right off the bottom of the screen. We will have no debate if we have endless questions.", "EditedTextHTML": "I ask for members' help. I have asked the clerk to clear the screens completely of names, because a very large number of members had pressed their buttons. I want to make it clear again that members who are waiting to speak in the debate should not press their buttons just now. The only members who should do so are those who wish to ask brief questions for clarification. I will insist on that; I will not allow a debate to start during question time. I repeat: brief questions for clarification only. Please stick by the rule. I will stop anybody who does not.

My screen is filling with names—it will be impossible to accommodate everyone. The names have now gone right off the bottom of the screen. We will have no debate if we have endless questions.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1826E199P351C710823", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Smith, Margaret", "ID": 1826, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Smith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Margaret Smith (Edinburgh West) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 721.0, "ContributionID": 710823, "EditedText": "Although I welcome the minister's statement, I am obviously disappointed that the A8000 has not found its way completely into the plans. I note that she said that it should be promoted by the councils and that she will be meeting council representatives. What does the minister believe are the options? How will the councils go about promoting the replacement? How might the Executive assist the councils in going for a more multi-modal approach to the road? The link is vital.", "EditedTextHTML": "Although I welcome the minister's statement, I am obviously disappointed that the A8000 has not found its way completely into the plans. I note that she said that it should be promoted by the councils and that she will be meeting council representatives. What does the minister believe are the options? How will the councils go about promoting the replacement? How might the Executive assist the councils in going for a more multi-modal approach to the road? The link is vital.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1876E194P490C710838", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Marwick, Tricia", "ID": 1876, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tricia Marwick", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tricia Marwick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 751.0, "ContributionID": 710838, "EditedText": "The minister has ditched the long-promised improvements to the Preston roundabout in Glenrothes on the A92 to Balfarg. She claims that there are more appropriate alternative measures. Has she spoken to Tullis Russell and Company Ltd, the town's largest employer, whose factory gates open out on to the A92? Has she spoken to the local MP, Henry McLeish, or to anyone in Glenrothes? Will she outline the appropriate alternatives and the time scale for their implementation? When will something be done about this death-trap road?", "EditedTextHTML": "The minister has ditched the long-promised improvements to the Preston roundabout in Glenrothes on the A92 to Balfarg. She claims that there are more appropriate alternative measures. Has she spoken to Tullis Russell and Company Ltd, the town's largest employer, whose factory gates open out on to the A92? Has she spoken to the local MP, Henry McLeish, or to anyone in Glenrothes? Will she outline the appropriate alternatives and the time scale for their implementation? When will something be done about this death-trap road?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5295547+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1926E190P479C710840", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Adam, Brian", "ID": 1926, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Adam", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Brian Adam (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 755.0, "ContributionID": 710840, "EditedText": "Will the minister confirm that she has U-turned on the much-predicted detrunking of routes in the same way as she U-turned on the issue of road tolls?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister confirm that she has U-turned on the much-predicted detrunking of routes in the same way as she U-turned on the issue of road tolls?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5295547+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710841", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 757.0, "ContributionID": 710841, "EditedText": "I do not think that that is a question of clarification either.", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not think that that is a question of clarification either.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5295547+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1820E139P227C710848", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Curran, Margaret", "ID": 1820, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Baillieston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Curran", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Margaret Curran (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 771.0, "ContributionID": 710848, "EditedText": "On a point of order, Presiding Officer. Although you refused Cathie Craigie's question without giving her a chance to rephrase it, you gave Phil Gallie that chance. I do not think that that is fair.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order, Presiding Officer. Although you refused Cathie Craigie's question without giving her a chance to rephrase it, you gave Phil Gallie that chance. I do not think that that is fair.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5295547+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710849", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 773.0, "ContributionID": 710849, "EditedText": "Cathie Craigie's question was whether the minister would agree to meet her, which is not a clarification of the statement.", "EditedTextHTML": "Cathie Craigie's question was whether the minister would agree to

meet her, which is not a clarification of the statement.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5295547+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1751E163P286C710853", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Craigie, Cathie", "ID": 1751, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Cumbernauld and Kilsyth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Cathie Craigie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Cathie Craigie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 781.0, "ContributionID": 710853, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5295547+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C710855", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 785.0, "ContributionID": 710855, "EditedText": "On a point of order, Presiding Officer. Laughter. You accepted my question and the minister was about to reply.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order, Presiding Officer. [Laughter.] You accepted my question and the minister was about to reply.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5295547+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710856", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 787.0, "ContributionID": 710856, "EditedText": "If we do without the preliminaries and get to the point of a brief question each time, we will all get on a lot better and faster.", "EditedTextHTML": "If we do without the preliminaries and get to the point of a brief question each time, we will all get on a lot better and faster.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5295547+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710863", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 801.0, "ContributionID": 710863, "EditedText": "I have just stopped somebody else asking that kind of question. The minister may answer the first part of the question.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have just stopped somebody else asking that kind of question. The minister may answer the first part of the question.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5295547+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C710875", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 825.0, "ContributionID": 710875, "EditedText": "What is the point of asking questions if we do not get an answer?", "EditedTextHTML": "What is the point of asking questions if we do not get an answer?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710876", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 827.0, "ContributionID": 710876, "EditedText": "I cannot take your question, Mr Sheridan.", "EditedTextHTML": "I cannot take your question, Mr Sheridan.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1814E135P516C710877", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Fabiani, Linda", "ID": 1814, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Linda Fabiani", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Linda Fabiani (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 829.0, "ContributionID": 710877, "EditedText": "Will the minister give a time scale for the reviews that she has announced?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give a time scale for the reviews that she has announced?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2108E50P256C710887", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macintosh, Ken", "ID": 2108, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Eastwood" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ken Macintosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Kenneth Macintosh (Eastwood) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 849.0, "ContributionID": 710887, "EditedText": "I thank the minister for the good news on the M77 and the Glasgow southern orbital. The Glasgow southern orbital is not a trunk road, but will it have to satisfy the criteria that are applied to the trunk roads in the review?", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the minister for the good news on the M77 and the Glasgow southern orbital. The Glasgow southern orbital is not a trunk road, but will it have to satisfy the criteria that are applied to the trunk roads in the review?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710897", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 869.0, "ContributionID": 710897, "EditedText": "It is not a question for the Procedures Committee. The Parliamentary Bureau will certainly consider that suggestion in the light of today's experience and of the dissatisfaction expressed by some clerking colleagues about my strict rationing of questions. I am trying to follow the instructions that we have been given, in which we have a two-stage process. If the Parliament feels that that system is not working, we will simply try to avoid it in future. We will perhaps have statements one week and debates the next but, at the moment, our procedures include the one that we have followed this afternoon. Let us proceed with the debate and see how we go.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is not a question for the Procedures Committee. The Parliamentary Bureau will certainly consider that suggestion in the light of today's experience and of the dissatisfaction expressed by some clerking colleagues about my strict rationing of questions. I am trying to follow the instructions that we have been given, in which we have a two-stage process. If the Parliament feels that that system is not working, we will simply try to avoid it in future. We will perhaps have statements one week and debates the next but, at the moment, our procedures include the one that we have followed this afternoon. Let us proceed with the debate and see how we go.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2112E192P495C710898", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacAskill, Kenny", "ID": 2112, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenny MacAskill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Kenny MacAskill (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 872.0, "ContributionID": 710898, "EditedText": "I wish to preface comments on the substantive matters before us by thanking you for your earlier ruling, Presiding Officer. As a courtesy, I was provided with a copy of the strategic review at 12:30. However, substantive matters seem to have been made available to individual press representatives days ago. The purpose of the media, I believe, is to report matters in this chamber. The purpose of this Parliament is to challenge and to scrutinise. There will be a substantial democratic deficit if actions or leaks result in matters being reported unchallenged and unscrutinised. I was going to say that I was delighted to see that the minister had not been hung out to dry and that the Labour front bench had come, team handed, so to speak, to ensure that it was seen that a collective decision had been taken. It appears that I got that wrong. The minister has been hung out to dry on the issue of tolls. Looking back, we were led to believe that the Executive wanted tolls, but that the minister did not. We were then told that both the Executive and the minister wanted tolls. Now we understand that neither the Executive nor the minister wants tolls. To further complicate the matter and perplex the average MSP—and me—we are told that the Executive and the minister want tolls, but the Secretary of State for Scotland does not. What a shambles—perhaps they could sort it out peacefully, constructively and in a dignified fashion over a drink at the bar at the next Labour conference. The Labour party's policy on tolls seems to have been formulated in the nursery. Like the grand old Duke of York, the Labour party has marched us up to the top of the hill and it has marched us down again. Now it is thinking of taking us halfway up, so we are neither up nor down. It is not going to toll old roads, but reserves the right to toll new roads. Leadership, vision, strategy? Come on down. What a shambles. What of the strategic roads review? Was it worth the lengthy wait? It has taken two and a half years to deliver a patchwork quilt of a road system and now there will be further investigations and further delay. Will it be the same time scale of two and a half years or more? This announcement falls between two anniversaries. Tomorrow is Guy Fawkes day. The announcement has produced not fireworks, but a damp squib. Tuesday past was the 40th anniversary of the opening of the M1, which links London to Birmingham. Forty years on, through the failure of the Executive and its Conservative predecessors, we still do not have a motorway that links our two major cities, Edinburgh and Glasgow—nor, indeed, do we have one that links the lowlands to the Highlands. What a disgrace. There has been a volte-face and a humiliating U-turn on the toll tax. Are we supposed to be grateful for small mercies? That would not be surprising, given the cap-in-hand attitude of the Executive. If the Executive thought that it could hide paucity of effort behind the smokescreen of saving us from the toll tax, which was and remains a nonsense, it is mistaken. That is not a sign of a listening Executive but of a fumbling, panicking Executive. We need to consider what we want transport to do in society. That takes us back to philosophy and purpose. We view transport as an economic fundamental in a global economy and as a social necessity for a better community, underpinned always by the requirement to take cognisance of our duty as custodians of the environment and habitat in which we live. This is piecemeal policy—there is no consideration of the bigger picture nor of the strategic importance to the Scottish economy of the transport infrastructure. The review is a sop. By being so geographically disparate, it tries to convince all parts of the country that something is being done. What strategic overview has been taken, when the entire county of Clackmannanshire, which has already been stuffed in terms of the public transport fund allocation, is stitched up in the trunk roads review and left isolated without even a connection to the trunk road network? Clackmannanshire is not a community on the periphery of our nation; it is located at its heart. Is Labour taking economic sanctions against a nationalist administration? The sum of the parts counts and the total, in terms of tasks and expenditure, is inadequate. This is not a trunk roads review; it is a continuation of a B-class road system in Scotland. Failure to implement the policy in full over a defined and reasonable time scale is not environmentally sound or ecologically friendly. Clearly, road building has environmental and ecological effects—it would be absurd to pretend otherwise. However, we must consider matters in a utilitarian light. The failure to construct new roads also has environmental and ecological effects. Moreover, the Executive's inadequate proposal gives rise to serious economic and social costs.", "EditedTextHTML": "I wish to preface comments on the substantive matters before us by thanking you for your earlier ruling, Presiding Officer. As a courtesy, I was provided with a copy of the strategic review at 12:30. However, substantive matters seem to have been made available to individual press representatives days ago. The purpose of the media, I believe, is to report matters in this chamber. The purpose of this Parliament is to challenge and to scrutinise. There will be a substantial democratic deficit if actions or leaks result in matters being reported unchallenged and unscrutinised.

I was going to say that I was delighted to see that the minister had not been hung out to dry and that the Labour front bench had come, team handed, so to speak, to ensure that it was seen that a collective decision had been taken. It appears that I got that wrong. The minister has been hung out to dry on the issue of tolls.

Looking back, we were led to believe that the Executive wanted tolls, but that the minister did not. We were then told that both the Executive and the minister wanted tolls. Now we understand that neither the Executive nor the minister wants tolls. To further complicate the matter and perplex the average MSP—and me—we are told that the Executive and the minister want tolls, but the Secretary of State for Scotland does not. What a shambles—perhaps they could sort it out peacefully, constructively and in a dignified fashion over a drink at the bar at the next Labour conference.

The Labour party's policy on tolls seems to have been formulated in the nursery. Like the grand old Duke of York, the Labour party has marched us up to the top of the hill and it has marched us down again. Now it is thinking of taking us halfway up, so we are neither up nor down. It is not going to toll old roads, but reserves the right to toll new roads. Leadership, vision, strategy? Come on down. What a shambles.

What of the strategic roads review? Was it worth the lengthy wait? It has taken two and a half years to deliver a patchwork quilt of a road system and now there will be further investigations and further delay. Will it be the same time scale of two and a half years or more?

This announcement falls between two anniversaries. Tomorrow is Guy Fawkes day. The announcement has produced not fireworks, but a damp squib. Tuesday past was the 40th anniversary of the opening of the M1, which links London to Birmingham. Forty years on, through the failure of the Executive and its Conservative predecessors, we still do not have a motorway that links our two major cities, Edinburgh and Glasgow—nor, indeed, do we have one that links the lowlands to the Highlands. What a disgrace.

There has been a volte-face and a humiliating U-turn on the toll tax. Are we supposed to be grateful for small mercies? That would not be surprising, given the cap-in-hand attitude of the Executive.

If the Executive thought that it could hide paucity of effort behind the smokescreen of saving us from the toll tax, which was and remains a nonsense, it is mistaken. That is not a sign of a listening Executive but of a fumbling, panicking Executive.

We need to consider what we want transport to do in society. That takes us back to philosophy and purpose. We view transport as an economic fundamental in a global economy and as a social necessity for a better community, underpinned always by the requirement to take cognisance of our duty as custodians of the environment and habitat in which we live.

This is piecemeal policy—there is no consideration of the bigger picture nor of the strategic importance to the Scottish economy of the transport infrastructure. The review is a sop. By being so geographically disparate, it tries to convince all parts of the country that something is being done.

What strategic overview has been taken, when the entire county of Clackmannanshire, which has already been stuffed in terms of the public transport fund allocation, is stitched up in the trunk roads review and left isolated without even a connection to the trunk road network? Clackmannanshire is not a community on the

periphery of our nation; it is located at its heart. Is Labour taking economic sanctions against a nationalist administration?

The sum of the parts counts and the total, in terms of tasks and expenditure, is inadequate. This is not a trunk roads review; it is a continuation of a B-class road system in Scotland.

Failure to implement the policy in full over a defined and reasonable time scale is not environmentally sound or ecologically friendly. Clearly, road building has environmental and ecological effects—it would be absurd to pretend otherwise. However, we must consider matters in a utilitarian light. The failure to construct new roads also has environmental and ecological effects. Moreover, the Executive's inadequate proposal gives rise to serious economic and social costs.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2112E192P495C710906", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacAskill, Kenny", "ID": 2112, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenny MacAskill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr MacAskill: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 888.0, "ContributionID": 710906, "EditedText": "Not at the moment. Well, as it is you, Tommy, on you go.", "EditedTextHTML": "Not at the moment. Well, as it is you, Tommy, on you go.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2112E192P495C710908", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacAskill, Kenny", "ID": 2112, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenny MacAskill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr MacAskill: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 892.0, "ContributionID": 710908, "EditedText": "The figure comes from information provided by the campaign and action groups; it is based on what could happen to British Airports Authority plc, IBM (UK) Ltd and other companies located west of Glasgow, whose future would be threatened by the failure to build this much-needed road. In the last year of the Tory Government, 1.03 per cent of gross domestic product was spent on transport and the environment. Over the next three years, less than 0.7 per cent of our national wealth will be reinvested in transport and the environment. In money terms, that means that some £739 million extra would have to reinvested in Scotland just to keep spending apace with growth. Meanwhile, in London, the chancellor is happy to draw money from Scotland's account to line a £12 billion war chest, rather than to reinvest the money in the nation to nurture the economic growth that we badly need. When the south of England needed the M25 orbital, it was built. When Newbury blocked access to English channel ports, it was bypassed. When areas in the south and west were isolated, that was solved by road construction. Not one of those schemes was privately financed, and certainly none of them was subject to tolls. What an absurdity—some nations discover oil and make their deserts bloom, but we discover oil and the Executive attempts to create an industrial desert. In this country, many of our citizens face absolute poverty. The problem in the Parliament is not absolute poverty, but the Labour leadership's poverty of aspiration. Things do not need to be this way. Let us aspire to what is seen as normal and as a matter of right in comparable small European nations such as Denmark and Finland. This is not the statement of a minister for transport—it is the statement of a convener of a committee for filling in potholes. It is a B-road scheme from a second-rate Executive.", "EditedTextHTML": "The figure comes from information provided by the campaign and action groups; it is based on what could happen to British Airports Authority plc, IBM (UK) Ltd and other

companies located west of Glasgow, whose future would be threatened by the failure to build this much-needed road.

In the last year of the Tory Government, 1.03 per cent of gross domestic product was spent on transport and the environment. Over the next three years, less than 0.7 per cent of our national wealth will be reinvested in transport and the environment. In money terms, that means that some £739 million extra would have to reinvested in Scotland just to keep spending apace with growth. Meanwhile, in London, the chancellor is happy to draw money from Scotland's account to line a £12 billion war chest, rather than to reinvest the money in the nation to nurture the economic growth that we badly need.

When the south of England needed the M25 orbital, it was built. When Newbury blocked access to English channel ports, it was bypassed. When areas in the south and west were isolated, that was solved by road construction. Not one of those schemes was privately financed, and certainly none of them was subject to tolls.

What an absurdity—some nations discover oil and make their deserts bloom, but we discover oil and the Executive attempts to create an industrial desert. In this country, many of our citizens face absolute poverty. The problem in the Parliament is not absolute poverty, but the Labour leadership's poverty of aspiration. Things do not need to be this way. Let us aspire to what is seen as normal and as a matter of right in comparable small European nations such as Denmark and Finland.

This is not the statement of a minister for transport—it is the statement of a convener of a committee for filling in potholes. It is a B-road scheme from a second-rate Executive.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2123E103P242C710911", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Chisholm, Malcolm", "ID": 2123, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh North and Leith" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Malcolm Chisholm", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Malcolm Chisholm: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 899.0, "ContributionID": 710911, "EditedText": "Is it not the case that in the last three years of the previous Conservative Government, expenditure on roads fell by 37 per cent? Is it not also the case that—contrary to what Mr Tosh said—expenditure and maintenance will double between 1997 and 2002?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is it not the case that in the last three years of the previous Conservative Government, expenditure on roads fell by 37 per cent? Is it not also the case that—contrary to what Mr Tosh said—expenditure and maintenance will double between 1997 and 2002?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C710912", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 901.0, "ContributionID": 710912, "EditedText": "Mr Chisholm knows that global expenditure by the Government and by local councils has been substantially reduced. We could trace a path through the years of the previous Government and we would find ups and downs in transport expenditure. The unalterable fact is that today's transport proposals are insignificant in comparison to the budgets that were administered and implemented at that time. That Government built miles and miles of motorway and trunk road, on which our economy depends. Our economy needs that work to be completed—it needs that vision to be fulfilled. This Administration has not done that. Business interests will treat today's announcements with utter dismay. When will those projects take place? Will they happen? Who will implement them? The M74 has been the subject of a massive lobby from every conceivable area of Scottish business. Will Glasgow City Council be responsible for deciding whether that project goes ahead, or will the Scottish Executive decide? Who knows? Ms Boyack did not tell us. If business interests came forward to say that they would like to build it, or if the enterprise agencies were willing to fund it through their budgets, would the Executive allow that? Who knows? The plans for completion of the road network round Glasgow were left in a state of limbo this afternoon. The minister is shaking her head, but I will gladly give way to her if she will give any information about time scales and implementation details and, crucially, on whether completion will happen and whether that is a decision for the local authority.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Chisholm knows that global expenditure by the Government and by local councils has been substantially reduced. We could trace a path through the years of the previous Government and we would find ups and downs in transport expenditure. The unalterable fact is that today's transport proposals are insignificant in comparison to the budgets that were administered and implemented at that time.

That Government built miles and miles of motorway and trunk road, on which our economy depends. Our economy needs that work to be completed—it needs that vision to be fulfilled. This Administration has not done that.

Business interests will treat today's announcements with utter dismay. When will those projects take place? Will they happen? Who will implement them? The M74 has been the subject of a massive lobby from every conceivable area of Scottish business. Will Glasgow City Council be responsible for deciding whether that project goes ahead, or will the Scottish Executive decide? Who knows? Ms Boyack did not tell us. If business interests came forward to say that they would like to build it, or if the enterprise agencies were willing to fund it through their budgets, would the Executive allow that? Who knows?

The plans for completion of the road network round Glasgow were left in a state of limbo this

afternoon. The minister is shaking her head, but I will gladly give way to her if she will give any information about time scales and implementation details and, crucially, on whether completion will happen and whether that is a decision for the local authority.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1990E181P340C710915", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robson, Euan", "ID": 1990, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Roxburgh and Berwickshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Euan Robson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Euan Robson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 907.0, "ContributionID": 710915, "EditedText": "Obviously, in his previous career Mr Tosh was not a geography teacher. He has failed to recognise that, for the eastern Borders and east Berwickshire, the announcement on the Haddington to Dunbar section is of major significance. Is he not aware of the efforts that have been made by the A1 safelink campaign to ensure that there will be a major safety upgrading on the A1? Does he not understand that the A68 northern bypass is still in a programme and might be developed in the future?", "EditedTextHTML": "Obviously, in his previous career Mr Tosh was not a geography teacher. He has failed to recognise that, for the eastern Borders and east Berwickshire, the announcement on the Haddington to Dunbar section is of major significance. Is he not aware of the efforts that have been made by the A1 safelink campaign to ensure that there will be a major safety upgrading on the A1? Does he not understand that the A68 northern bypass is still in a programme and might be developed in the future?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1778E91P257C710918", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Eadie, Helen", "ID": 1778, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dunfermline East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Helen Eadie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Helen Eadie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 913.0, "ContributionID": 710918, "EditedText": "I am asking for clarification. Will Mr Tosh give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am asking for clarification. Will Mr Tosh give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C710919", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 915.0, "ContributionID": 710919, "EditedText": "No, no, no—to quote my leader.My point specifically for Euan Robson is that, however worth while the A1 project is, it does nothing for the access routes down the A7 and the A68. That project was ready to implement at the election, but Mr Robson's cronies ditched it, deferred it and now will not tell members when it will happen or when it will be completed. I heard Mr Robson's earlier intervention. He is as worried about that situation as I am, but he does not want to admit it. Nevertheless, this is a black day for the Scottish Borders, which have been given nothing in the strategic roads review, and nothing either by way of compensation through the railway option.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, no, no—to quote my leader.

My point specifically for Euan Robson is that, however worth while the A1 project is, it does nothing for the access routes down the A7 and the A68. That project was ready to implement at the election, but Mr Robson's cronies ditched it, deferred it and now will not tell members when it will happen or when it will be completed. I heard Mr Robson's earlier intervention. He is as worried about that situation as I am, but he does not want to admit it. Nevertheless, this is a black day for the Scottish Borders, which have been given nothing in the strategic roads review, and nothing either by way of compensation through the railway option.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C710920", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Alex Salmond (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 917.0, "ContributionID": 710920, "EditedText": "Will Mr Tosh give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "

Will Mr Tosh give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C710921", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 919.0, "ContributionID": 710921, "EditedText": "I shall give way if Mr Salmond's question is short.", "EditedTextHTML": "I shall give way if Mr Salmond's question is short.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C710922", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 921.0, "ContributionID": 710922, "EditedText": "I want to take the debate away from that confrontation. Given the experience of the Skye road bridge, does the Conservative party in Scotland still support privatised road or bridge schemes that are subsequently tolled, or has that policy changed?", "EditedTextHTML": "I want to take the debate away from that confrontation.

Given the experience of the Skye road bridge, does the Conservative party in Scotland still support privatised road or bridge schemes that are subsequently tolled, or has that policy changed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C710928", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 934.0, "ContributionID": 710928, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2112E192P495C710930", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacAskill, Kenny", "ID": 2112, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenny MacAskill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr MacAskill rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 938.0, "ContributionID": 710930, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C710935", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 949.0, "ContributionID": 710935, "EditedText": "So do I.", "EditedTextHTML": "So do I.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C710937", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 953.0, "ContributionID": 710937, "EditedText": "Take it as read. I applauded when the minister announced it.", "EditedTextHTML": "Take it as read. I applauded when the minister announced it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1970E66P288C710942", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNulty, Des", "ID": 1970, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Clydebank and Milngavie" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Des McNulty", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Des McNulty: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 965.0, "ContributionID": 710942, "EditedText": "The Executive is increasing expenditure on roads generally and, in funding the five schemes that I referred to, it is tackling some of the most serious problems of the roads infrastructure in Scotland. The Executive is not dealing with all the problems of Scotland's roads, because it is working within a given budget, but roads are a priority, as are other transport matters. Murray recognises that there are priorities and hard choices in politics. He wants all the money to be spent on roads, but he is wrong.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Executive is increasing expenditure on roads generally and, in funding the five schemes that I referred to, it is tackling some of the most serious problems of the roads infrastructure in Scotland. The Executive is not dealing with all the problems of Scotland's roads, because it is working within a given budget, but roads are a priority, as are other transport matters. Murray recognises that there are priorities and hard choices in politics. He wants all the money to be spent on roads, but he is wrong.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1970E66P288C710946", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNulty, Des", "ID": 1970, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Clydebank and Milngavie" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Des McNulty", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Des McNulty: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 973.0, "ContributionID": 710946, "EditedText": "A balance exists between public expenditure, roads expenditure and other forms of expenditure, such as expenditure on health and education. We are in government to make choices, and I applaud the choices that have been made today. Murray at least recognises that choices have to be made, even if he disagrees with them. Kenny MacAskill does not want to make a choice at all; he wants to spend money that this Government and Scotland do not have. In reality, we must take the issue of transport expenditure forward. The issue is not just one of roads; it is about public transport, the environment and the kind of Scotland in which we want to live. We have to consider economic benefits, road safety, the environmental impact of road building, issues of access and the range of integrated policies on which we must make progress. We must make decisions according to those considerations. The decisions will not please everyone, but we have to recognise that the decisions that we make must be realistic—choices must be made and resources must be allocated. The minister has made good choices in the face of a difficult set of competing claims. I hope that some issues, such as the way in which the A74 can be taken forward, will make progress following further discussions with the relevant local authorities.", "EditedTextHTML": "A balance exists between public expenditure, roads expenditure and other forms of expenditure, such as expenditure on health and education. We are in government to make choices, and I applaud the choices that have been made today. Murray at least recognises that choices have to be made, even if he disagrees with them. Kenny MacAskill does not want to make a choice at all; he wants to spend money that this Government and Scotland do not have.

In reality, we must take the issue of transport expenditure forward. The issue is not just one of roads; it is about public transport, the environment and the kind of Scotland in which we want to live. We have to consider economic benefits, road safety, the environmental impact of road building, issues of access and the range of integrated policies on which we must make progress. We must make decisions according to those considerations. The decisions will not please everyone, but we have to recognise that the decisions that we make must be realistic—choices must be made and resources must be allocated.

The minister has made good choices in the face of a difficult set of competing claims. I hope that some issues, such as the way in which the A74 can be taken forward, will make progress following further discussions with the relevant local authorities.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2123E103P242C710948", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Chisholm, Malcolm", "ID": 2123, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh North and Leith" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Malcolm Chisholm", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 979.0, "ContributionID": 710948, "EditedText": "I congratulate our superb Minister for Transport and the Environment on a superb statement, which is better than anything that I have imagined in the two years since I announced the strategic roads review. I commend the vision, which has balanced safety with environmental and other factors and which also sees the need for further multi-modal studies in the main transport corridors. I also commend the choices that she has made. Unfortunately, that word is not in Mr MacAskill's vocabulary.", "EditedTextHTML": "I congratulate our superb Minister for Transport and the Environment on a superb statement, which is better than anything that I have imagined in the two years since I announced the strategic roads review.

I commend the vision, which has balanced safety with environmental and other factors and which also sees the need for further multi-modal studies in the main transport corridors. I also commend the choices that she has made. Unfortunately, that word is not in Mr MacAskill's vocabulary.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2123E103P242C710950", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Chisholm, Malcolm", "ID": 2123, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh North and Leith" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Malcolm Chisholm", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Malcolm Chisholm: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 983.0, "ContributionID": 710950, "EditedText": "Choice is the essence of what we have before us. That road is being progressed. I commend the proposal to go ahead with work on the A1, which is essential for safety reasons. I also welcome the announcements on the A77, the bypass at Fochabers and the Mallaig road. Two years ago, I was pleased to travel along that road on a fish lorry, so that I could understand the problems at first hand.", "EditedTextHTML": "Choice is the essence of what we have before us. That road is being progressed.

I commend the proposal to go ahead with work on the A1, which is essential for safety reasons. I also welcome the announcements on the A77, the bypass at Fochabers and the Mallaig road. Two years ago, I was pleased to travel along that road on a fish lorry, so that I could understand the problems at first hand.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C710953", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 989.0, "ContributionID": 710953, "EditedText": "I will take a very brief contribution, without interruptions if possible, from Nora Radcliffe. You have only two minutes.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will take a very brief contribution, without interruptions if possible, from Nora Radcliffe. You have only two minutes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1850E185P354C710956", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Radcliffe, Nora", "ID": 1850, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Gordon" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nora Radcliffe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nora Radcliffe: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 996.0, "ContributionID": 710956, "EditedText": "I do not have time.The A90 is also the main route to and from the biggest whitefish port in Europe and a major oil and gas terminal. I am glad that it will be next in the queue, and I commend the minister on the way in which she has tackled some very different choices. She has gone about it in exactly the right way.", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not have time.

The A90 is also the main route to and from the biggest whitefish port in Europe and a major oil and gas terminal. I am glad that it will be next in the queue, and I commend the minister on the way in which she has tackled some very different choices. She has gone about it in exactly the right way.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2099E29P51C710958", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Young, John", "ID": 2099, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Young", "SpeakerDisplayName": "John Young (West of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1001.0, "ContributionID": 710958, "EditedText": "I am really sorry for Sarah Boyack. She is sitting there in a bunker, almost completely isolated. Where are all the ministers? They have disappeared, like snow off a dike. That may tell her something. An hour or two ago, we were presented with three documents, totalling 144 pages and approximately 43,000 words. How is anyone, even a genius, supposed to assimilate all that in such a short time? I happened to open this heavy tome on page 33, where the following paragraph caught my eye: \"In practice, it is not possible, at least on the basis of current methodology, to assign monetary values to all of the potential impacts of schemes which are relevant to the 5 criteria.\" Even that short statement would be difficult to assimilate. I must admit that I suspect that some of the hold-ups on road policy are due to an ideological division between the lords and masters of Labour in London and the Labour party in Scotland. As Murray Tosh rightly said, at least the previous Conservative Government had a fine trunk road network. The previous document, \"Making it work together\"—the one that would hardly fit in a briefcase—says, on page 15: \"We will build an integrated transport system, which meets our economic and social needs\" That is praiseworthy and perhaps the minister will tell us how it will be done. Page 16 of the document says that, early next year, a bill will be introduced that will \"allow road user charging and charges on parking at the workplace, where it is sensible to do so.\" Who will decide what is sensible?The document continues:\"We will use the money raised to invest in transport improvements.\" However, all sorts of doubts have been raised about whether that would happen. The best part of the document was the promise to move freight off the roads by March 2002. Is all the freight to be moved off the roads? At present, 80 per cent of this country's freight is carried by road, but the document promises that the Executive will change that within 28 months, presumably by putting the road haulage freight on to the rail system, which will cause a complete collapse of the rail system and the end of the road haulage system. That is what the document proposes. The words are there in black and white. All that raises questions for the ladies—and gentlemen—who shop at Asda, Tesco, Sainsbury's and Safeway, because if all freight is taken off the roads, the shelves of those supermarkets will be empty. Sarah Boyack is, in some ways, like a doctor in \"Heartbeat\" or \"Casualty\". Her patient is called transport and is suffering from artery blockage, congestion problems and other deficiencies. Sooner or later, she will have to identify solutions to specific problems: how to raise sufficient money, which she touched on earlier; how to create an integrated transport system that will attract customers; and how to disperse traffic as a result of whatever form of charging is levied. Does she accept that the car is here to stay? That the rail system cannot handle the freight that roads handle? That cycle tracks—I believe that the minister is a cyclist—will continue to be 95 per cent underutilised in most places? That the proposed congestion charges are highly unlikely to reduce congestion in the cities? On that last question, I should point out that experiments in Leicester suggest that rates would have to be set at £8 a day before people would leave their cars at home, and a recent survey in London suggested that cars should be charged £5 and trucks should have to cough up £15.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am really sorry for Sarah Boyack. She is sitting there in a bunker, almost completely isolated. Where are all the ministers? They have disappeared, like snow off a dike. That may tell her something.

An hour or two ago, we were presented with three documents, totalling 144 pages and approximately 43,000 words. How is anyone, even a genius, supposed to assimilate all that in such a short time? I happened to open this heavy tome on page 33, where the following paragraph caught my eye:

\"In practice, it is not possible, at least on the basis of current methodology, to assign monetary values to all of the potential impacts of schemes which are relevant to the 5 criteria.\"

Even that short statement would be difficult to assimilate.

I must admit that I suspect that some of the hold-ups on road policy are due to an ideological division between the lords and masters of Labour in London and the Labour party in Scotland. As Murray Tosh rightly said, at least the previous Conservative Government had a fine trunk road network.

The previous document, \"Making it work together\"—the one that would hardly fit in a briefcase—says, on page 15:

\"We will build an integrated transport system, which meets our economic and social needs\"

That is praiseworthy and perhaps the minister will tell us how it will be done.

Page 16 of the document says that, early next year, a bill will be introduced that will

\"allow road user charging and charges on parking at the workplace, where it is sensible to do so.\"

Who will decide what is sensible?

The document continues:

\"We will use the money raised to invest in transport improvements.\"

However, all sorts of doubts have been raised about whether that would happen.

The best part of the document was the promise to move freight off the roads by March 2002. Is all the freight to be moved off the roads? At present, 80 per cent of this country's freight is carried by road, but the document promises that the Executive will change that within 28 months, presumably by putting the road haulage freight on to the rail system, which will cause a complete collapse of the rail system and the end of the road haulage system. That is what the document proposes. The words are there in black and white. All that raises questions for the ladies—and gentlemen—who shop at Asda, Tesco, Sainsbury's and Safeway, because if all freight is taken off the roads, the shelves of those supermarkets will be empty.

Sarah Boyack is, in some ways, like a doctor in \"Heartbeat\" or \"Casualty\". Her patient is called transport and is suffering from artery blockage, congestion problems and other deficiencies. Sooner or later, she will have to identify solutions to specific problems: how to raise sufficient money, which she touched on earlier; how to create an integrated transport system that will attract customers; and how to disperse traffic as a result of whatever form of charging is levied.

Does she accept that the car is here to stay? That the rail system cannot handle the freight that roads handle? That cycle tracks—I believe that the minister is a cyclist—will continue to be 95 per cent underutilised in most places? That the proposed congestion charges are highly unlikely to reduce congestion in the cities? On that last question, I should point out that experiments in Leicester suggest that rates would have to be set at £8 a day before people would leave their cars at home, and a recent survey in London suggested that cars should be charged £5 and trucks should have to cough up £15.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C710959", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1003.0, "ContributionID": 710959, "EditedText": "Would you wind up, please.", "EditedTextHTML": "Would you wind up, please.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2099E29P51C710960", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Young, John", "ID": 2099, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Young", "SpeakerDisplayName": "John Young: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1005.0, "ContributionID": 710960, "EditedText": "I understand that Aberdeen and Edinburgh would levy local authority charges but that Glasgow is not keen to do so. I would love to see how the minister is going to tackle Glasgow— my old colleagues in the local authority are a tough load of cookies. Will the minister force Labour councillors in Glasgow, including Charlie Gordon, to impose those charges if they do not want to? Road space needs to be better used. Taking away existing road space on main routes and removing it from all vehicle use by narrowing the highway or removing it from most vehicle use by restricting it to certain categories of vehicle is bound to make congestion worse. I wonder if there is a devious plot afoot. Is the Executive trying to create congestion so that it can levy congestion charges? More congestion means more pollution.", "EditedTextHTML": "I understand that Aberdeen and Edinburgh would levy local authority charges but that Glasgow is not keen to do so. I would love to see how the minister is going to tackle Glasgow— my old colleagues in the local authority are a tough load of cookies. Will the minister force Labour councillors in Glasgow, including Charlie Gordon, to impose those charges if they do not want to?

Road space needs to be better used. Taking away existing road space on main routes and removing it from all vehicle use by narrowing the highway or removing it from most vehicle use by restricting it to certain categories of vehicle is bound to make congestion worse. I wonder if there is a devious plot afoot. Is the Executive trying to create congestion so that it can levy congestion charges? More congestion means more pollution.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C710961", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1007.0, "ContributionID": 710961, "EditedText": "Would you draw to a close, please.", "EditedTextHTML": "Would you draw to a close, please.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710967", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1020.0, "ContributionID": 710967, "EditedText": "Sarah Boyack will now wind up.", "EditedTextHTML": "Sarah Boyack will now wind up.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1926E190P479C710980", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Adam, Brian", "ID": 1926, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Adam", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Brian Adam: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1047.0, "ContributionID": 710980, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710985", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1057.0, "ContributionID": 710985, "EditedText": "No, I seem to recall that they occurred during the statement and answers earlier this afternoon.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I seem to recall that they occurred during the statement and answers earlier this afternoon.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710987", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1061.0, "ContributionID": 710987, "EditedText": "This afternoon I ruled that new policy announcements should not be made during closing ministerial statements, and I do not think that that has happened. The debate has ended, but I should say that a record number of members—17—were not called to speak, in spite of my earlier efforts to curtail questions. In view of that, and in view of Mr Gorrie's point of order, I will ask the Parliamentary Bureau to look at this double-headed procedure again, because I am not sure that it is working.", "EditedTextHTML": "This afternoon I ruled that new policy announcements should not be made during closing ministerial statements, and I do not think that that has happened.

The debate has ended, but I should say that a record number of members—17—were not called to speak, in spite of my earlier efforts to curtail questions. In view of that, and in view of Mr Gorrie's point of order, I will ask the Parliamentary Bureau to look at this double-headed procedure again, because I am not sure that it is working.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710989", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1065.0, "ContributionID": 710989, "EditedText": "I can assure members that the clerks take a careful note of those who are not called in debate, so that the person in the chair is conscious of members who have been overlooked on previous occasions. Some may feel that they are more overlooked than others, but I assure members that we do our best to ensure that that does not happen.", "EditedTextHTML": "I can assure members that the clerks take a careful note of those who are not called in debate, so that the person in the chair is conscious of members who have been overlooked on previous occasions. Some may feel that they are more overlooked than others, but I assure members that we do our best to ensure that that does not happen.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "C710990", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Lead Committees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27020, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1067.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1067.0, "ID": 27020, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1068.0, "ContributionID": 710990, "EditedText": "Motion moved,", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion moved,

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710995", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Amnesic Shellfish Poisoning", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27021, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1070.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1070.0, "ID": 27021, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1075.0, "ContributionID": 710995, "EditedText": "There was a bit of noise, members. I asked Mr McCabe to move motions S1M-243 and S1M-245. He has done so.", "EditedTextHTML": "There was a bit of noise, members. I asked Mr McCabe to move motions S1M-243 and S1M-245. He has done so.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710998", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27022, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1077.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1077.0, "ID": 27022, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1083.0, "ContributionID": 710998, "EditedText": "We will have a division. Those who wish to support Mr Fergusson's amendment should press yes now.", "EditedTextHTML": "We will have a division. Those who wish to support Mr Fergusson's amendment should press yes now.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711001", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27022, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1077.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1077.0, "ID": 27022, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1088.0, "ContributionID": 711001, "EditedText": "Amendment disagreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment disagreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711004", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27022, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1077.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1077.0, "ID": 27022, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1093.0, "ContributionID": 711004, "EditedText": "There will be a division. Those who wish to support Mr Finnie's amendment should press yes.", "EditedTextHTML": "There will be a division. Those who wish to support Mr Finnie's amendment should press yes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711008", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27022, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1077.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1077.0, "ID": 27022, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1099.0, "ContributionID": 711008, "EditedText": "The third question is, that motion S1M-242, as amended, in the name of Mr Alex Salmond, on agricultural and rural affairs, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "The third question is, that motion S1M-242, as amended, in the name of Mr Alex Salmond, on agricultural and rural affairs, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711009", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27022, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1077.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1077.0, "ID": 27022, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1101.0, "ContributionID": 711009, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711013", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27022, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1077.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1077.0, "ID": 27022, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1108.0, "ContributionID": 711013, "EditedText": "Motion, as amended, agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion, as amended, agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711015", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27022, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1077.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1077.0, "ID": 27022, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1110.0, "ContributionID": 711015, "EditedText": "That the Parliament recognises the difficulties being faced by the agriculture industry; endorses the principle contained in the Partnership for Scotland agreement of working to support and enhance rural life and the rural economy; commends the steps already taken by the Scottish Executive to achieve these aims, and supports the Executive in its determination to promote long-term sustainable development, both in the agriculture industry and throughout rural Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament recognises the difficulties being faced by the agriculture industry; endorses the principle contained in the Partnership for Scotland agreement of working to support and enhance rural life and the rural economy; commends the steps already taken by the Scottish Executive to achieve these aims, and supports the Executive in its determination to promote long-term sustainable development, both in the agriculture industry and throughout rural Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711020", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27022, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1077.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1077.0, "ID": 27022, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1117.0, "ContributionID": 711020, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711022", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliamentary Elections", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27023, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1119.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1119.0, "ID": 27023, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1120.0, "ContributionID": 711022, "EditedText": "I appeal to members who are leaving to do so quickly and quietly, so that we can proceed with the members' debate on motion S1M-212, in the name of Lord James Douglas-Hamilton, on Scottish parliamentary elections. Members who wish to should please press their buttons.", "EditedTextHTML": "I appeal to members who are leaving to do so quickly and quietly, so that we can proceed with the members' debate on motion S1M-212, in the name of Lord James Douglas-Hamilton, on Scottish parliamentary elections. Members who wish to should please press their buttons.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711024", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliamentary Elections", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27023, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1119.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1119.0, "ID": 27023, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1123.0, "ContributionID": 711024, "EditedText": "That the Parliament notes with grave concern that 2097 votes in the Scottish parliamentary election list vote from the West Edinburgh parliamentary division were not counted as well as other irregularities elsewhere, and calls upon the First Minister to consult urgently with the Secretary of State for Scotland with regard to the outcome of the arrangements for counting these votes and to make a statement to the Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament notes with grave concern that 2097 votes in the Scottish parliamentary election list vote from the West Edinburgh parliamentary division were not counted as well as other irregularities elsewhere, and calls upon the First Minister to consult urgently with the Secretary of State for Scotland with regard to the outcome of the arrangements for counting these votes and to make a statement to the Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C711026", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliamentary Elections", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27023, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1119.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1119.0, "ID": 27023, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1127.0, "ContributionID": 711026, "EditedText": "Order. Excuse me, Lord James. If members wish to conduct conversations, they should do so outside the chamber.", "EditedTextHTML": "Order. Excuse me, Lord James. If members wish to conduct conversations, they should do so outside the chamber.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1826E199P351C711029", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliamentary Elections", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27023, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1119.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1119.0, "ID": 27023, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Smith, Margaret", "ID": 1826, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Smith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Margaret Smith (Edinburgh West) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1134.0, "ContributionID": 711029, "EditedText": "I welcome the opportunity to speak in this debate. I also welcome the fact that an independent inquiry into what went on at the Lothians count, and a review by the Secretary of State for Scotland, are being undertaken. As the constituency member for Edinburgh West, I am in a slightly different position from the members elected on the Lothians list. I represent the people of Edinburgh West, whose votes were not counted in this first historic election, but at the same time I was not, as it were, elected by the failed system. I am involved in this but not involved. Over the years, I am sure that all of us have irritated a number of people on doorsteps when we have given them the relative merits of voting for the Liberal Democrats, the Scottish National party, the Conservatives or the Labour party—or indeed the Greens. In my history of political campaigning, the people on the doorsteps whom I have taken most umbrage at have never been the people who have told me that they choose to vote for somebody other than me, but those who said that they choose not to vote. That is the point at which I become extremely annoyed and remind them of the situation that existed in South Africa and the situation that was challenged by the women's suffrage movement. It is for that reason that what we are discussing today is an affront to me as an individual who has grown up in a democratic society believing that I have political freedom and political rights. The people of Edinburgh West have a right to believe that when they cast their vote, their voice will be heard no matter whether it is a first-pastthe- post or a list vote. They have that right. They exercised it in great number and were let down by the system. We also owe it to the politicians who were brave enough to put their heads above the parapet, so that they knew what the result was on the day. There was a complete shambles. I would like to concentrate, however, on what I believe to be a conflict of interest in having a council chief executive being the returning officer. Two weeks ago, the public relations committee of the City of Edinburgh Council was informed by Donald Anderson that the council leader was advised against an independent inquiry a matter of weeks after the debacle of the May elections. Who was the council leader given that advice by? By the very people who this inquiry is likely to show did not do their job properly. Facts that were known after the election were kept from the elected members of the City of Edinburgh Council, and the whole thing shows that there is a conflict of interest between being a council leader and the returning officer at the same time. My instinct would be to have the votes recounted. Donald Gorrie will pick up on the point that Lord James made, but we still have to sound a note of caution. Journalists from the Edinburgh Evening News have been photographed sitting on bags of the votes in question, which have not been under 24-hour lock and key and police supervision since 6 May. There will always be a question mark over those votes. There will not be a question mark over whether the people of my constituency went out and voted. They deserve better from the system. I hope that the secretary of state's review and the inquiry undertaken on behalf of City of Edinburgh councillors will show that this will not be allowed to happen again.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the opportunity to speak in this debate. I also welcome the fact that an independent inquiry into what went on at the Lothians count, and a review by the Secretary of State for Scotland, are being undertaken.

As the constituency member for Edinburgh West, I am in a slightly different position from the members elected on the Lothians list. I represent the people of Edinburgh West, whose votes were not counted in this first historic election, but at the same time I was not, as it were, elected by the failed system. I am involved in this but not involved.

Over the years, I am sure that all of us have irritated a number of people on doorsteps when we have given them the relative merits of voting for the Liberal Democrats, the Scottish National party, the Conservatives or the Labour party—or indeed the Greens. In my history of political campaigning, the people on the doorsteps whom I have taken most umbrage at have never been the people who have told me that they choose to vote for somebody other than me, but those who said that they choose not to vote. That is the point at which I become extremely annoyed and remind them of the situation that existed in South Africa and the situation that was challenged by the women's suffrage movement. It is for that reason that what we are discussing today is an affront to me as an individual who has grown up in a democratic society believing that I have political freedom and political rights.

The people of Edinburgh West have a right to believe that when they cast their vote, their voice will be heard no matter whether it is a first-pastthe- post or a list vote. They have that right. They exercised it in great number and were let down by the system. We also owe it to the politicians who were brave enough to put their heads above the parapet, so that they knew what the result was on the day. There was a complete shambles.

I would like to concentrate, however, on what I believe to be a conflict of interest in having a council chief executive being the returning officer. Two weeks ago, the public relations committee of the City of Edinburgh Council was informed by Donald Anderson that the council leader was advised against an independent inquiry a matter of weeks after the debacle of the May elections. Who was the council leader given that advice by? By the very people who this inquiry is likely to show did not do their job properly.

Facts that were known after the election were kept from the elected members of the City of Edinburgh Council, and the whole thing shows that there is a conflict of interest between being a council leader and the returning officer at the same time.

My instinct would be to have the votes recounted. Donald Gorrie will pick up on the point that Lord James made, but we still have to sound a note of caution. Journalists from the Edinburgh Evening News have been photographed sitting on bags of the votes in question, which have not been under 24-hour lock and key and police supervision since 6 May. There will always be a question mark over those votes. There will not be a question mark over whether the people of my constituency went out and voted. They deserve better from the system. I hope that the secretary of state's review and the inquiry undertaken on behalf of City of Edinburgh councillors will show that this will not be allowed to happen again.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C711034", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliamentary Elections", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27023, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1119.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1119.0, "ID": 27023, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Justice (Angus MacKay): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1149.0, "ContributionID": 711034, "EditedText": "I will begin by making two corrections of fact. I am sure that the errors were unintentional, but they are worth pointing out none the less. First, Lord James Douglas-Hamilton suggested that Gavin Anderson was a Government adviser. I do not think that that is the case. He is one of a number of administrators who helped to draw up the legislation. Secondly, Margaret Smith confused the role of the chief executive and a leader of the administration in Edinburgh; I am sure that she did so entirely by mistake. I think she intended to say that it was not appropriate for the chief executive and the returning officer to be the same person. We should put that on the record as well.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will begin by making two corrections of fact. I am sure that the errors were unintentional, but they are worth pointing out none the less. First, Lord James Douglas-Hamilton suggested that Gavin Anderson was a Government adviser. I do not think that that is the case. He is one of a number of administrators who helped to draw up the legislation.

Secondly, Margaret Smith confused the role of the chief executive and a leader of the administration in Edinburgh; I am sure that she did so entirely by mistake. I think she intended to say that it was not appropriate for the chief executive and the returning officer to be the same person. We should put that on the record as well.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1821E295P538C711037", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliamentary Elections", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27023, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1119.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1119.0, "ID": 27023, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Mrs Margaret", "ID": 1821, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Moray" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Margaret Ewing (Moray) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1155.0, "ContributionID": 711037, "EditedText": "I am interested in the recommendations that may be made. Everyone here this evening is interested in the democratic process. How will the recommendations be implemented, given what the minister said about such matters being reserved to Westminster? Will a recommendation be made through this chamber to the Secretary of State for Scotland, or will one come through a committee? How can we effectively achieve the end that I think we all desire?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am interested in the recommendations that may be made. Everyone here this evening is interested in the democratic process. How will the recommendations be implemented, given what the minister said about such matters being reserved to Westminster? Will a recommendation be made through this chamber to the Secretary of State for Scotland, or will one come through a committee? How can we effectively achieve the end that I think we all desire?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C711041", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliamentary Elections", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27023, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1119.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1119.0, "ID": 27023, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell (South of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1163.0, "ContributionID": 711041, "EditedText": "Is the minister—as the minister who is responsible for this matter—prepared to pass the Official Report of this debate to the Secretary of State for Scotland so that he can consider the views that have been expressed in this debate when he undertakes his review? The Parliament might be able to pass a motion on that without notice, or it might require the permission of the Presiding Officer. I am sure that it would be useful to the secretary of state if the minister made that undertaking.", "EditedTextHTML": "Is the minister—as the minister who is responsible for this matter—prepared to pass the Official Report of this debate to the Secretary of State for Scotland so that he can consider the views that have been expressed in this debate when he undertakes his review? The Parliament might be able to pass a motion on that without notice, or it might require the permission of the Presiding Officer. I am sure that it would be useful to the secretary of state if the minister made that undertaking.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C711043", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliamentary Elections", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27023, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1119.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1119.0, "ID": 27023, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1167.0, "ContributionID": 711043, "EditedText": "The European Parliament does not permit its elections to be held on the same day as other elections in any of its member states. There must be a reason for that. The reason is that it causes confusion in the counting process. That is a good European example that we should follow.", "EditedTextHTML": "The European Parliament does not permit its elections to be held on the same day as other elections in any of its member states. There must be a reason for that. The reason is that it causes confusion in the counting process. That is a good European example that we should follow.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2056E57P84C711045", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliamentary Elections", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27023, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1119.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1119.0, "ID": 27023, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James", "ID": 2056, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "James Douglas-Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Lord James Douglas-Hamilton: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1171.0, "ContributionID": 711045, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C711046", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliamentary Elections", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27023, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1119.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1119.0, "ID": 27023, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Angus MacKay: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1173.0, "ContributionID": 711046, "EditedText": "I shall give way for the final time.", "EditedTextHTML": "I shall give way for the final time.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C711051", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliamentary Elections", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27023, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1119.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1119.0, "ID": 27023, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1183.0, "ContributionID": 711051, "EditedText": "That concludes the debate on the vote in the Edinburgh West parliamentary division. I now close this meeting of Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "That concludes the debate on the vote in the Edinburgh West parliamentary division. I now close this meeting of Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2110E214P424C710717", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Police Funding", "QuestionHeadingID": 27001, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 489.0, "DisplayOrder": 489.0, "ID": 27001, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gibson, Kenneth", "ID": 2110, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenneth Gibson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "10. Mr Kenneth Gibson (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 490.0, "ContributionID": 710717, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has to increase expenditure on policing in financial year 2000-01. (S1O-529) The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice (Mr Jim Wallace): As announced in the comprehensive spending review, the total revenue funding available for the police in 2000-01 is £741.9 million, which is an increase of 3.8 per cent on this year's figure.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has to increase expenditure on policing in financial year 2000-01. (S1O-529) The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice (Mr Jim Wallace): As announced in the comprehensive spending review, the total revenue funding available for the police in 2000-01 is £741.9 million, which is an increase of 3.8 per cent on this year's figure.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:12:28.4701587+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2110E214P424C710718", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Police Funding", "QuestionHeadingID": 27001, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 489.0, "DisplayOrder": 489.0, "ID": 27001, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gibson, Kenneth", "ID": 2110, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenneth Gibson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Gibson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 492.0, "ContributionID": 710718, "EditedText": "Does the minister agree that inadequate police resources lead to increased crime, especially public order offences and street crime? Does he still agree with the assertion that he made in response to a written question from me, that the substantial increase in violent crime in Strathclyde last year is entirely unrelated to the fact that Strathclyde police are 350 officers short of their operational complement? If he considers that assertion misjudged, will he take this opportunity to outline precisely what measures he intends to take to ensure that all Scottish police forces are restored to their full complement?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the minister agree that inadequate police resources lead to increased crime, especially public order offences and street crime? Does he still agree with the assertion that he made in response to a written question from me, that the substantial increase in violent crime in Strathclyde last year is entirely unrelated to the fact that Strathclyde police are 350 officers short of their operational complement? If he considers that assertion misjudged, will he take this opportunity to outline precisely what measures he intends to take to ensure that all Scottish police forces are restored to their full complement?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:12:28.4701587+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C710860", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 795.0, "ContributionID": 710860, "EditedText": "I ask her, then: what is the time scale for the approval of the construction of the two junctions on the A90 at Forfar, which she approved in her announcement today?", "EditedTextHTML": "I ask her, then: what is the time scale for the approval of the construction of the two junctions on the A90 at Forfar, which she approved in her announcement today?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:14:54.5772891+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710486", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 4.0, "ContributionID": 710486, "EditedText": "The first item of business is the non-Executive business debate on motion S1M-242, in the name of Mr Alex Salmond, on agriculture and rural affairs, and on two amendments to that motion. Before we begin the debate, I want to make it clear that the rule about summing up at the end has, as I requested, been defined by the Procedures Committee. Members will recall that, in previous non-Executive debates, I said that the spokesman for the Executive should wind up. The Procedures Committee has now carefully considered the matter and decided that, in non- Executive debates, a member of the party that moved the motion should be called to wind up. That was the committee's advice, which I propose to accept—as from today, that will be the practice. The final speaker will come from whichever party has moved the motion. This morning, many members want to speak. The time allotted to opening speakers is generous: 20 minutes for the mover of the motion and 15 minutes each for the movers of the amendments. I propose to stick rigidly to those times in the interests of the debate.", "EditedTextHTML": "The first item of business is the non-Executive business debate on motion S1M-242, in the name of Mr Alex Salmond, on agriculture and rural affairs, and on two amendments to that motion.

Before we begin the debate, I want to make it clear that the rule about summing up at the end has, as I requested, been defined by the Procedures Committee. Members will recall that, in previous non-Executive debates, I said that the spokesman for the Executive should wind up. The Procedures Committee has now carefully considered the matter and decided that, in non- Executive debates, a member of the party that moved the motion should be called to wind up. That was the committee's advice, which I propose to accept—as from today, that will be the practice. The final speaker will come from whichever party has moved the motion.

This morning, many members want to speak. The time allotted to opening speakers is generous: 20 minutes for the mover of the motion and 15 minutes each for the movers of the amendments. I propose to stick rigidly to those times in the interests of the debate.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1888E265P358C710487", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morgan, Alasdair", "ID": 1888, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Galloway and Upper Nithsdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morgan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alasdair Morgan (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 7.0, "ContributionID": 710487, "EditedText": "It is with great pleasure that I move the motion on agriculture and rural affairs. Let us hope that the debate stimulates more interest on the as yet fairly empty Government benches as the morning goes on. As I said a couple of weeks ago during the short, Government-sponsored debate on agriculture, it is a shame that so little time has so far been allocated to the subject. That is one of the reasons why we lodged today's motion, which refers to some of the severe problems affecting parts of the rural economy and rural society, and seeks more concerted and effective Government action to tackle them. One of the arguments of those who opposed the setting up of this Parliament was that devolution would lead to the domination of Scotland by the industrial areas of the central belt, to the detriment of the rest of Scotland, particularly rural Scotland. However, it was always the Scottish National party's contention that rural Scotland would be better represented and its needs more sensitively addressed in a Scottish Parliament than they had ever been at Westminster. Why should we believe that rural Scotland is important? First—but in no particular order—it contains a significant and increasing percentage of our population. Secondly, it makes a vital contribution to tourism, one of our most important industries. Thirdly, through agriculture, horticulture and, of course, their ancillary industries, including whisky and other distilling, it plays a crucial part in our economy. Fourthly, it is an essential leisure resource for those who live in our urban areas—I might say for those who are unfortunate enough to live in our urban areas. Although rural Scotland has many distinguishing characteristics, we should not let ourselves get caught in the trap that some would lead us into for their own political or campaigning ends, which is to believe that there is a huge gulf between town and country and that the interests of the two groups are essentially different. In fact, the needs of those who live in rural Scotland are essentially the same as those of people living anywhere in Scotland. People need good services, be it health services, social services or transport; they need adequate housing provision; their industries, just as industries elsewhere, need guidance, assistance and an understanding of their needs. All that must be linked with an understanding that meeting those needs in rural areas may require a different approach and that there will be significant differences even between rural areas—between Galloway and Unst, for example. Most country people wish to stay and work in the country and many other people move into the country, either to retire or to use it as a base for commuting to an urban area. Both factors bring their own problems and challenges for local authority and Government funding. It would be wrong to think that, just because the country is attractive, life there is a rural idyll. The same problems exist in the country as in our towns, although they are often concealed by the sparseness of the population. In many country areas, we find high unemployment, a high incidence of homelessness, a serious problem with low wages and sparse public services. I do not want anyone to go away with the impression that those problems started with the current Government or are a result of the current crisis in agriculture—although that has certainly not helped. In many rural areas, although not in all, the endemic problems of poor housing, low wages, high unemployment and poor public services have persisted for decades and have been left largely unsolved by both local government and central Government. Just as the problems of our rural areas are not unique, so the effects of Government policy do not stop at our urban boundaries; in fact, those policies often impact disproportionately on our rural areas. That is certainly the case today— when many of the policies of the current Government at Westminster have a serious and disproportionate effect on our rural areas. Every MP or MSP who has any contact with rural Scotland cannot fail to pick up the same two messages that come from all parts of society and from all business and industry—about the impact of road fuel prices and about the double-sided coin of high interest rates and the high pound. The Conservative Government introduced the fuel duty escalator. However, Conservatives have opportunistically dumped that policy as they see the Labour party stealing their clothes. The fuel escalator was, allegedly, introduced to protect the environment. In reality, it is a blunt instrument that serves only to fill Gordon Brown's coffers.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is with great pleasure that I move the motion on agriculture and rural affairs. Let us hope that the debate stimulates more interest on the as yet fairly empty Government benches as the morning goes on.

As I said a couple of weeks ago during the short, Government-sponsored debate on agriculture, it is a shame that so little time has so far been allocated to the subject. That is one of the reasons why we lodged today's motion, which refers to some of the severe problems affecting parts of the rural economy and rural society, and seeks more concerted and effective Government action to tackle them.

One of the arguments of those who opposed the setting up of this Parliament was that devolution would lead to the domination of Scotland by the industrial areas of the central belt, to the detriment of the rest of Scotland, particularly rural Scotland. However, it was always the Scottish National party's contention that rural Scotland would be better represented and its needs more sensitively addressed in a Scottish Parliament than they had ever been at Westminster.

Why should we believe that rural Scotland is important? First—but in no particular order—it contains a significant and increasing percentage of our population. Secondly, it makes a vital contribution to tourism, one of our most important industries. Thirdly, through agriculture, horticulture and, of course, their ancillary industries, including whisky and other distilling, it plays a crucial part in our economy. Fourthly, it is an essential leisure resource for those who live in our urban areas—I might say for those who are unfortunate enough to live in our urban areas.

Although rural Scotland has many distinguishing characteristics, we should not let ourselves get caught in the trap that some would lead us into for their own political or campaigning ends, which is to believe that there is a huge gulf between town and country and that the interests of the two groups are essentially different. In fact, the needs of those who live in rural Scotland are essentially the same as those of people living anywhere in Scotland.

People need good services, be it health services, social services or transport; they need adequate housing provision; their industries, just as industries elsewhere, need guidance, assistance and an understanding of their needs. All that must be linked with an understanding that meeting those needs in rural areas may require a different approach and that there will be significant differences even between rural areas—between Galloway and Unst, for example.

Most country people wish to stay and work in the country and many other people move into the country, either to retire or to use it as a base for commuting to an urban area. Both factors bring their own problems and challenges for local authority and Government funding.

It would be wrong to think that, just because the country is attractive, life there is a rural idyll. The same problems exist in the country as in our towns, although they are often concealed by the sparseness of the population. In many country areas, we find high unemployment, a high incidence of homelessness, a serious problem with low wages and sparse public services. I do not want anyone to go away with the impression that those problems started with the current Government or are a result of the current crisis in agriculture—although that has certainly not helped. In many rural areas, although not in all, the endemic problems of poor housing, low wages, high unemployment and poor public services have persisted for decades and have been left largely unsolved by both local government and central Government.

Just as the problems of our rural areas are not unique, so the effects of Government policy do not stop at our urban boundaries; in fact, those policies often impact disproportionately on our rural areas. That is certainly the case today— when many of the policies of the current Government at Westminster have a serious and disproportionate effect on our rural areas. Every MP or MSP who has any contact with rural Scotland cannot fail to pick up the same two messages that come from all parts of society and from all business and industry—about the impact of road fuel prices and about the double-sided coin of high interest rates and the high pound.

The Conservative Government introduced the fuel duty escalator. However, Conservatives have opportunistically dumped that policy as they see the Labour party stealing their clothes. The fuel escalator was, allegedly, introduced to protect the environment. In reality, it is a blunt instrument that serves only to fill Gordon Brown's coffers.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1888E265P358C710491", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morgan, Alasdair", "ID": 1888, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Galloway and Upper Nithsdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morgan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alasdair Morgan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 15.0, "ContributionID": 710491, "EditedText": "We had no plans to continue with the fuel escalator had we been in power at Westminster, which is the crucial difference.", "EditedTextHTML": "We had no plans to continue with the fuel escalator had we been in power at Westminster, which is the crucial difference.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1888E265P358C710494", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morgan, Alasdair", "ID": 1888, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Galloway and Upper Nithsdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morgan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alasdair Morgan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 21.0, "ContributionID": 710494, "EditedText": "I dare say that we may come on to that definition later. The scandal about the fuel escalator is that it is not helping us to meet our Kyoto commitments. The polluters in our main cities simply pay the extra duty and carry on polluting, while those who live in rural Scotland, who can least afford it and who contribute least to pollution, have to pay as well. I give a simple, but typical, example from my constituency. My constituency forms half the local authority area that was shown in a recent survey to have the lowest pay rates of all local authority areas in Great Britain. However, it is near the top—seventh out of the 73 Scottish constituencies—in the car-ownership tables. In other words, people are much less well-off but are more likely to run cars. They do not do that for fun or because they have a distorted sense of priorities; they do it because they have no alternative. Moreover, they have to pay the Chancellor of the Exchequer sweetly for the privilege. The partnership agreement between the coalition parties, which is referred to in the Executive's amendment, states: \"We recognise, however, the widespread concern about travel costs\". It goes on:\"We recognise that for many people, particularly in rural areas, there is often no alternative to car use\". I could not agree more. However, we need not just recognition of the problem, but action to address it. The situation would be bad enough if all things were equal, but they are not. The First Minister, when he was Secretary of State for Scotland, said as recently as 1 February: \"The oil price is likely to stay at about $10 to $12 a barrel at least in the foreseeable future.\"—Official Report, House of Commons, Scottish Grand Committee, 1 February 1999; c 8. By August—only seven months later—the price had risen to $18.90. Yesterday, the price of Brent crude stood at $21.35. The foreseeable future is very short indeed. The whole point—apart from the fact that one would not ask the First Minister for advice on oil futures—is that those buying road fuel have to meet not only the steeply rising cost of the basic product, but the increasing tax levy. Similarly—as if all forms of agriculture did not face enough problems—the impact of the continually high rate of sterling is simply twisting the knife in the industry's wounds. Where export markets have not been lost in the short term— such as has happened in the case of beef because of the BSE crisis—they struggle to survive because they are being priced out of the market. At the same time, domestic sales are being undercut by imports that are made all the cheaper by the exchange rate. Tourism, the other main industry in our rural areas—into which, ironically, some farmers have wholly or partly diversified—is now suffering precisely the same problem. It takes a very keen foreign visitor to be unaffected by the relatively high cost of a holiday in Scotland and an increasing number of United Kingdom residents find it difficult to resist not just a first but a second holiday abroad in the sun, with cheap currency, instead of in Scotland.Currency levels also have an adverse effect on the third of our major rural industries, forestry, in which output is due to peak in the early part of the next century and will remain high. The industry faces problems because its production levels cannot readily be altered to a significant extent in the short term. On both issues—road fuel taxes and currency levels—our domestic industry in rural areas is being put at a competitive disadvantage by the Government's actions. Scottish people want to hear the voice of the Scottish Parliament; in particular, they want to hear Scottish ministers arguing their case against damaging policies introduced by a Government of the same party. Scottish people want to know that a strong case is being made on their behalf. It would be interesting to know whether the Secretary of State for Scotland, in the liaison role that he claims to perform and for which he seems to be grossly overstaffed, is also making that case. We had all hoped—perhaps even believed— that, following the most recent developments, the beef crisis was nearing a final solution. First indications from Brussels on Tuesday were that Nick Brown had lain down and invited everyone to walk all over him. Now Commissioner Byrne would have us believe that Tuesday's discussions were \"an intelligent, rational and reasonable approach towards the situation.\" What input did the minister have to the discussions and to the decisions that were made? Was he told of the need to clarify the technical detail before the event, as we are being told, or afterwards? Was he told at all? Did he perhaps, like the rest of us, simply hear of it on the radio or television? There is a serious point to be made here, which applies to the beef sector in particular but is also of more general importance—Scotland has a different tale to tell and a different message to sell to our continental partners.", "EditedTextHTML": "I dare say that we may come on to that definition later.

The scandal about the fuel escalator is that it is not helping us to meet our Kyoto commitments. The polluters in our main cities simply pay the extra duty and carry on polluting, while those who live in rural Scotland, who can least afford it and who contribute least to pollution, have to pay as well.

I give a simple, but typical, example from my constituency. My constituency forms half the local authority area that was shown in a recent survey to have the lowest pay rates of all local authority areas in Great Britain. However, it is near the top—seventh out of the 73 Scottish constituencies—in the car-ownership tables. In other words, people are much less well-off but are more likely to run cars. They do not do that for fun or because they have a distorted sense of priorities; they do it because they have no alternative. Moreover, they have to pay the Chancellor of the Exchequer sweetly for the privilege.

The partnership agreement between the coalition parties, which is referred to in the Executive's amendment, states:

\"We recognise, however, the widespread concern about travel costs\".

It goes on:

\"We recognise that for many people, particularly in rural areas, there is often no alternative to car use\".

I could not agree more. However, we need not just recognition of the problem, but action to address it.

The situation would be bad enough if all things were equal, but they are not. The First Minister, when he was Secretary of State for Scotland, said as recently as 1 February:

\"The oil price is likely to stay at about $10 to $12 a barrel at least in the foreseeable future.\"—[Official Report, House of Commons, Scottish Grand Committee, 1 February 1999; c 8.]

By August—only seven months later—the price had risen to $18.90. Yesterday, the price of Brent crude stood at $21.35. The foreseeable future is very short indeed. The whole point—apart from the fact that one would not ask the First Minister for advice on oil futures—is that those buying road fuel have to meet not only the steeply rising cost of the basic product, but the increasing tax levy.

Similarly—as if all forms of agriculture did not face enough problems—the impact of the continually high rate of sterling is simply twisting the knife in the industry's wounds. Where export markets have not been lost in the short term— such as has happened in the case of beef because of the BSE crisis—they struggle to survive because they are being priced out of the market. At the same time, domestic sales are being undercut by imports that are made all the cheaper by the exchange rate.

Tourism, the other main industry in our rural areas—into which, ironically, some farmers have wholly or partly diversified—is now suffering precisely the same problem. It takes a very keen foreign visitor to be unaffected by the relatively high cost of a holiday in Scotland and an increasing number of United Kingdom residents find it difficult to resist not just a first but a second holiday abroad in the sun, with cheap currency,

instead of in Scotland.

Currency levels also have an adverse effect on the third of our major rural industries, forestry, in which output is due to peak in the early part of the next century and will remain high. The industry faces problems because its production levels cannot readily be altered to a significant extent in the short term.

On both issues—road fuel taxes and currency levels—our domestic industry in rural areas is being put at a competitive disadvantage by the Government's actions. Scottish people want to hear the voice of the Scottish Parliament; in particular, they want to hear Scottish ministers arguing their case against damaging policies introduced by a Government of the same party. Scottish people want to know that a strong case is being made on their behalf. It would be interesting to know whether the Secretary of State for Scotland, in the liaison role that he claims to perform and for which he seems to be grossly overstaffed, is also making that case.

We had all hoped—perhaps even believed— that, following the most recent developments, the beef crisis was nearing a final solution. First indications from Brussels on Tuesday were that Nick Brown had lain down and invited everyone to walk all over him. Now Commissioner Byrne would have us believe that Tuesday's discussions were

\"an intelligent, rational and reasonable approach towards the situation.\"

What input did the minister have to the discussions and to the decisions that were made? Was he told of the need to clarify the technical detail before the event, as we are being told, or afterwards? Was he told at all? Did he perhaps, like the rest of us, simply hear of it on the radio or television? There is a serious point to be made here, which applies to the beef sector in particular but is also of more general importance—Scotland has a different tale to tell and a different message to sell to our continental partners.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1888E265P358C710500", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morgan, Alasdair", "ID": 1888, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Galloway and Upper Nithsdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morgan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alasdair Morgan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 33.0, "ContributionID": 710500, "EditedText": "If one of those Liberal Democrat MPs had brought that motion to my attention, I would gladly have supported it. That is a cheap point. We are all keen for rural post offices to survive and prosper. I do not think that the transfer to the automated payments system will be good for the post offices. If the Government is determined to go down that route, to save costs to the social security budget, it must give a commitment to subsidise rural post offices. So far, that commitment has not been given. All that the Government has said is that it will perhaps allow time for the post offices to seek alternative businesses. All members know that, in many rural areas, there is little alternative business to be had. That would be the final nail in the coffin for many of our rural communities. Electronic commerce is one area in which the rural economy can compete on a level playing field with the urban economy. I ask the Executive to ensure that a strategy is in place whereby the development of e-commerce is regarded as a key building block in the growth of the rural economy. I conclude by quoting the former Secretary of State for Scotland, from his foreword to the Scottish Office document that was issued a year ago, \"Towards a Development Strategy for Rural Scotland\". He said that the Government recognised its \"commitment to sustain vibrant local communities in rural and remote areas.\" If a straw poll were taken at the moment, in our rural and remote areas, I do not think that the Government would receive a pass mark. Our vibrant rural communities are vital to the health and well-being of the whole Scottish nation; if we are still to have them, they must be one of our main priorities in the months and years to come. I move,That the Parliament recognises the drastic effects of the agricultural recession which has been exacerbated by successive governments' ineptitude over matters such as BSE, Beef on the Bone, the present difficulties in pig farming and the failure to secure European help for hill farmers; acknowledges that there is now a crisis in rural Scotland and that it is being made worse by the continuing effect of the fuel price escalator, the decline of rural public transport, the shortage of affordable rural housing and the failure to support successfully Scotland's tourist industry, and therefore calls upon the Scottish Executive to devise a real and effective rural strategy which could command the backing not only of the whole Parliament but also of the whole of Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "If one of those Liberal Democrat MPs had brought that motion to my attention, I would gladly have supported it. That is a cheap point.

We are all keen for rural post offices to survive and prosper. I do not think that the transfer to the automated payments system will be good for the post offices. If the Government is determined to go down that route, to save costs to the social security budget, it must give a commitment to subsidise rural post offices. So far, that commitment has not been given. All that the Government has said is that it will perhaps allow time for the post offices to seek alternative businesses. All members know that, in many rural areas, there is little alternative business to be had. That would be the final nail in the coffin for many of our rural communities.

Electronic commerce is one area in which the rural economy can compete on a level playing field with the urban economy. I ask the Executive to ensure that a strategy is in place whereby the development of e-commerce is regarded as a key building block in the growth of the rural economy.

I conclude by quoting the former Secretary of State for Scotland, from his foreword to the Scottish Office document that was issued a year ago, \"Towards a Development Strategy for Rural Scotland\". He said that the Government recognised its

\"commitment to sustain vibrant local communities in rural and remote areas.\"

If a straw poll were taken at the moment, in our rural and remote areas, I do not think that the Government would receive a pass mark. Our vibrant rural communities are vital to the health and well-being of the whole Scottish nation; if we are still to have them, they must be one of our main priorities in the months and years to come.

I move,

That the Parliament recognises the drastic effects of the agricultural recession which has been exacerbated by successive governments' ineptitude over matters such as BSE, Beef on the Bone, the present difficulties in pig farming and the failure to secure European help for hill farmers; acknowledges that there is now a crisis in rural Scotland and that it is being made worse by the continuing effect of the fuel price escalator, the decline of rural public transport, the shortage of affordable rural housing and the failure to support successfully Scotland's tourist industry, and therefore calls upon the Scottish Executive to devise a real and effective rural strategy which could command the backing not only of the whole Parliament but also of the whole of Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1888E265P358C710502", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morgan, Alasdair", "ID": 1888, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Galloway and Upper Nithsdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morgan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alasdair Morgan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 38.0, "ContributionID": 710502, "EditedText": "People feel that successive Administrations have been talking about the need for better labelling for a long time. Progress in the area seems to be excessively slow.", "EditedTextHTML": "People feel that successive Administrations have been talking about the need for better labelling for a long time. Progress in the area seems to be excessively slow.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C710503", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ross Finnie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 40.0, "ContributionID": 710503, "EditedText": "I share that concern. We are tackling the matter in two ways. There are problems with trying to tackle the matter through Europe, because the Commission does not exactly move swiftly. The purpose of the regulatory change that I announced last week is to address the problem that people can legally import produce into this country, process it and then claim that it is Scottish. That is what it is competent for us to do in Scotland and throughout the United Kingdom. I take the point that we must go further than that on the labelling issue, but I hope that our initiative will go some way towards dealing with the matter. In view of the collapsed pig market, we have again asked Europe to reinstate private storage aid. I hope that that discussion will be reopened, because the facts that caused that aid to be withdrawn are now completely different. I have also asked that all Executive ministries in Scotland ensure—as far as they can without interfering with competitive tendering—that pork and pigmeat of the high quality that is manufactured in Scotland is the preferred choice throughout all Government departments. I have made a similar request to our local authorities. The continuing French ban on UK beef exports is a difficult, serious problem, which has been confused in the press. We must remember that it was all started by the French equivalent of the food standards agency saying that it believed that there was new evidence to suggest that the way in which we were treating BSE was unsatisfactory. That report was, unsurprisingly, endorsed by the French premier, Monsieur Jospin. We are now in a position where a Prime Minister has endorsed his own committee; we must work out how we get out of that. We are greatly encouraged by the fact that the scientific steering committee delivered a resounding yes to the date-based export scheme. That committee's findings did not, however, ensure that a French Government, which had been hoist by its own petard, was going to give way instantly. I assure members that I was involved in discussions and that I was well aware of the possibility that we might have to discuss giving the French further assurance on technical matters if that meant that we would get out of this logjam.", "EditedTextHTML": "I share that concern. We are tackling the matter in two ways. There are problems with trying to tackle the matter through Europe, because the Commission does not exactly move swiftly. The purpose of the regulatory change that I announced last week is to address the problem that people can legally import produce into this country, process it and then

claim that it is Scottish. That is what it is competent for us to do in Scotland and throughout the United Kingdom. I take the point that we must go further than that on the labelling issue, but I hope that our initiative will go some way towards dealing with the matter.

In view of the collapsed pig market, we have again asked Europe to reinstate private storage aid. I hope that that discussion will be reopened, because the facts that caused that aid to be withdrawn are now completely different. I have also asked that all Executive ministries in Scotland ensure—as far as they can without interfering with competitive tendering—that pork and pigmeat of the high quality that is manufactured in Scotland is the preferred choice throughout all Government departments. I have made a similar request to our local authorities.

The continuing French ban on UK beef exports is a difficult, serious problem, which has been confused in the press. We must remember that it was all started by the French equivalent of the food standards agency saying that it believed that there was new evidence to suggest that the way in which we were treating BSE was unsatisfactory. That report was, unsurprisingly, endorsed by the French premier, Monsieur Jospin. We are now in a position where a Prime Minister has endorsed his own committee; we must work out how we get out of that.

We are greatly encouraged by the fact that the scientific steering committee delivered a resounding yes to the date-based export scheme. That committee's findings did not, however, ensure that a French Government, which had been hoist by its own petard, was going to give way instantly. I assure members that I was involved in discussions and that I was well aware of the possibility that we might have to discuss giving the French further assurance on technical matters if that meant that we would get out of this logjam.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C710506", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 46.0, "ContributionID": 710506, "EditedText": "With respect—", "EditedTextHTML": "With respect—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710510", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 54.0, "ContributionID": 710510, "EditedText": "It will have to be a moment.", "EditedTextHTML": "It will have to be a moment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2140E187P335C710513", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Rumbles, Mike", "ID": 2140, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Rumbles", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Rumbles: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 61.0, "ContributionID": 710513, "EditedText": "That is a short speech, then Laughter.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is a short speech, then [Laughter.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1893E47P78C710520", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnstone, Alex", "ID": 1893, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Johnstone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Johnstone: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 75.0, "ContributionID": 710520, "EditedText": "I have been a member of theConservative party for approximately 17 years and I have rarely, if ever, agreed with William Waldegrave. Laughter. The minister's amendment is an example of a member of this Parliament trying to absolve himself of some responsibility. We are absolving ourselves in equal measure. The minister's amendment will be viewed in Scotland, particularly rural Scotland, as complacent. It fails to recognise the extent of the crisis that is facing rural Scotland and its primary industries. The tone adopted by the SNP motion reflects, more than does the minister's amendment, the view that is held in rural Scotland: that our rural industries and economy are now at breaking point. We must seriously examine how we address those matters in future. As an aside, I draw to members' attention an article by Dan Buglass in today's business section of The Scotsman. He says that the farming-related suicide rate in Scotland has almost doubled since last year. That shows the stress and emotional pressure that is being placed on those who work in rural Scotland. The figures show the serious trouble in which the rural economy finds itself. That is why I believe the Executive's amendment is dangerously complacent. We must address the key points that affect the rural economy. Since Labour came to power two and a half years ago, incomes in rural Scotland have halved—and halved again. Labour and the Liberal Democrats have blamed the farming crisis on everything and everyone apart from themselves. After two and a half years of a Labour Government in Westminster, responsibility must begin to move to the incumbent Government. The Executive here must also carry some responsibility.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have been a member of the

Conservative party for approximately 17 years and I have rarely, if ever, agreed with William Waldegrave. [Laughter.]

The minister's amendment is an example of a member of this Parliament trying to absolve himself of some responsibility. We are absolving ourselves in equal measure. The minister's amendment will be viewed in Scotland, particularly rural Scotland, as complacent. It fails to recognise the extent of the crisis that is facing rural Scotland and its primary industries. The tone adopted by the SNP motion reflects, more than does the minister's amendment, the view that is held in rural Scotland: that our rural industries and economy are now at breaking point. We must seriously examine how we address those matters in future.

As an aside, I draw to members' attention an article by Dan Buglass in today's business section of The Scotsman. He says that the farming-related suicide rate in Scotland has almost doubled since last year. That shows the stress and emotional pressure that is being placed on those who work in rural Scotland. The figures show the serious trouble in which the rural economy finds itself. That is why I believe the Executive's amendment is dangerously complacent.

We must address the key points that affect the rural economy. Since Labour came to power two and a half years ago, incomes in rural Scotland have halved—and halved again. Labour and the Liberal Democrats have blamed the farming crisis on everything and everyone apart from themselves. After two and a half years of a Labour Government in Westminster, responsibility must begin to move to the incumbent Government. The Executive here must also carry some responsibility.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C710523", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ross Finnie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 81.0, "ContributionID": 710523, "EditedText": "Will Mr Johnstone give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr Johnstone give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C710528", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Patricia Ferguson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 91.0, "ContributionID": 710528, "EditedText": "Mr Finnie, Mr Johnstone has not given way. Please carry on, Mr Johnstone.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Finnie, Mr Johnstone has not given way. Please carry on, Mr Johnstone.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1893E47P78C710529", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnstone, Alex", "ID": 1893, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Johnstone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Johnstone: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 93.0, "ContributionID": 710529, "EditedText": "The Government has allowed the importation of food that does not match the standards expected of British farmers. It is failing to fight for the interests of our farmers on the international stage. The continuing fiasco of the French and German beef bans is an example of that. The Government is attacking the countryside with an unhelpful barrage of irresponsible policies that include land reform, which could be the one that we find ourselves dealing with most in the next few months. We must consider the importance of various industries to the rural economy in Scotland. The farming industry employs 69,000 people directly and up to 200,000 jobs are partially dependent on it. Scottish farming has suffered much more from price reductions than its EU competitors. British ex-farm prices have fallen by almost 30 per cent over three years, compared with the EU average of 10 per cent. Scottish farming is in its worst state since the 1930s. Average farm income last year was only £400.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Government has allowed the importation of food that does not match the standards expected of British farmers. It is failing to fight for the interests of our farmers on the international stage. The continuing fiasco of the French and German beef bans is an example of that. The Government is attacking the countryside with an unhelpful barrage of irresponsible policies that include land reform, which could be the one that we find ourselves dealing with most in the next few months.

We must consider the importance of various industries to the rural economy in Scotland. The farming industry employs 69,000 people directly and up to 200,000 jobs are partially dependent on it. Scottish farming has suffered much more from price reductions than its EU competitors. British ex-farm prices have fallen by almost 30 per cent over three years, compared with the EU average of 10 per cent.

Scottish farming is in its worst state since the 1930s. Average farm income last year was only £400.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4826755+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C710532", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ross Finnie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 99.0, "ContributionID": 710532, "EditedText": "Is the inference to be drawn from the economic facts that Mr Johnstone has given that he is about to disclose that he wants a devaluation of the pound? That seems to be the inference that is to be drawn from his remarks. Has there been a serious change in Conservative policy?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is the inference to be drawn from the economic facts that Mr Johnstone has given that he is about to disclose that he wants a devaluation of the pound? That seems to be the inference that is to be drawn from his remarks. Has there been a serious change in Conservative policy?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4826755+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2068E171P304C710541", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stone, Jamie", "ID": 2068, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie Stone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 117.0, "ContributionID": 710541, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4826755+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2140E187P335C710550", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Rumbles, Mike", "ID": 2140, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Rumbles", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Rumbles: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 136.0, "ContributionID": 710550, "EditedText": "The Tory Government's mishandling of the BSE crisis helped to cause serious damage to the rural economy. It is wrong of the motion to imply that the Scottish Executive can be compared to the Conservative Government. The Executive partnership between Labour and the Liberal Democrats has established a department of rural affairs that is determined to address the problems in the rural environment in the round. Ross Finnie is proving to be an excellent Minister for Rural Affairs and he has impressed many observers with his commitment and determination to address the problems. He called for a cull ewe scheme to relieve the crisis faced by Scottish hill farmers. The European Union blocked the move on competitiveness grounds, but that did not stop the Executive using half of the £40 million emergency package for Scottish farmers to assist the areas that need a ewe cull. He has announced the appointment of a business expert to study new marketing opportunities in the sheep farming industry and has confirmed an increase in funding for the initiative. He has announced the postponement of the proposed £7-a-head cattle passport scheme that was due to be implemented this autumn. I hope that that charge never sees the light of day. While going around farms in my constituency, I have heard that the excessive bureaucracy that farmers face is a major concern. The Liberal Democrat election manifesto committed us to introducing an appeals procedure to deal with disputes over penalties for alleged inaccuracies in official returns and claim forms. That commitment was incorporated into the partnership agreement and I was pleased last month when the Minister for Finance confirmed that money is to be set aside to fund the procedure. That is a success. The achievements of the partnership's rural policies should be recognised. I was pleased that Jim Walker, the president of the National Farmers Union of Scotland, came to the Scottish Liberal Democrat conference last month and welcomed the constructive dialogue that his union has had with the Executive on all the issues that I have spoken about, among others. The motion addresses many issues—I do not have time to address them all—but I hope that there will be some acknowledgement of the partnership's commitment to rural public transport. I had intended to list a few examples, but time is running short. William Hague blames the EU for banning British beef. In fact, the EU countries are the only significant countries to have lifted the ban; most of the world still bans it. William Hague has called for a unilateral ban on French meat. Not only is that opposed by the NFU, it would be illegal, against the advice of scientists, start a tit-for-tat trade war and put at risk Britain's entire £10 billion European export market for food and drink. It would hit Scotland particularly badly and the north-east of Scotland worst of all. The Tories do not understand that if they have nothing constructive to say, they should say nothing. For the sake of our rural communities, I urge members to reject the Tory amendment and the SNP motion, and to support the Executive's motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Tory Government's mishandling of the BSE crisis helped to cause serious damage to the rural economy. It is wrong of the motion to imply that the Scottish Executive can be compared to the Conservative Government. The Executive partnership between Labour and the Liberal Democrats has established a department of rural affairs that is determined to address the problems in the rural environment in the round.

Ross Finnie is proving to be an excellent Minister for Rural Affairs and he has impressed many observers with his commitment and determination to address the problems. He called for a cull ewe scheme to relieve the crisis faced by Scottish hill farmers. The European Union blocked the move on competitiveness grounds, but that did not stop the Executive using half of the £40 million emergency package for Scottish farmers to assist the areas that need a ewe cull. He has announced the appointment of a business expert to study new marketing opportunities in the sheep farming industry and has confirmed an increase in funding for the initiative. He has announced the postponement of the proposed £7-a-head cattle passport scheme that was due to be implemented this autumn. I hope that that charge never sees the light of day.

While going around farms in my constituency, I have heard that the excessive bureaucracy that farmers face is a major concern. The Liberal Democrat election manifesto committed us to introducing an appeals procedure to deal with disputes over penalties for alleged inaccuracies in official returns and claim forms. That commitment was incorporated into the partnership agreement and I was pleased last month when the Minister for Finance confirmed that money is to be set aside to fund the procedure. That is a success.

The achievements of the partnership's rural policies should be recognised. I was pleased that Jim Walker, the president of the National Farmers Union of Scotland, came to the Scottish Liberal Democrat conference last month and welcomed the constructive dialogue that his union has had with the Executive on all the issues that I have spoken about, among others.

The motion addresses many issues—I do not have time to address them all—but I hope that there will be some acknowledgement of the partnership's commitment to rural public transport. I had intended to list a few examples, but time is running short.

William Hague blames the EU for banning British beef. In fact, the EU countries are the only significant countries to have lifted the ban; most of the world still bans it. William Hague has called for a unilateral ban on French meat. Not only is that opposed by the NFU, it would be illegal, against the advice of scientists, start a tit-for-tat trade war and put at risk Britain's entire £10 billion European export market for food and drink. It would hit Scotland particularly badly and the north-east of Scotland worst of all.

The Tories do not understand that if they have nothing constructive to say, they should say nothing. For the sake of our rural communities, I urge members to reject the Tory amendment and the SNP motion, and to support the Executive's motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4826755+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1893E47P78C710552", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnstone, Alex", "ID": 1893, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Johnstone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Johnstone: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 141.0, "ContributionID": 710552, "EditedText": "Will Mr Russell give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr Russell give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4826755+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C710559", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 155.0, "ContributionID": 710559, "EditedText": "This Administration has to take rural Scotland seriously. It may speak a good game, but it is not playing a good game. The difference between urban and rural Scotland is deepening day by day. There must be action—not the smug satisfaction of the Executive amendment or the Tories' attempt to evade responsibility. Action is what the Parliament is for and what the motion is about. I ask members to support it.", "EditedTextHTML": "This Administration has to take rural Scotland seriously. It may speak a good game, but it is not playing a good game. The difference between urban and rural Scotland is deepening day by day. There must be action—not the smug satisfaction of the Executive amendment or the Tories' attempt to evade responsibility. Action is what the Parliament is for and what the motion is about. I ask members to support it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4826755+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2066E64P88C710569", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McGrigor, Jamie", "ID": 2066, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie McGrigor", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McGrigor: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 177.0, "ContributionID": 710569, "EditedText": "I would like to refer briefly to the agricultural business improvement scheme— something else that is being done to help hill- farming businesses. In February, Lord Sewel said in a statement that, whatever happened, there would be enough money to fulfil all the ABIS plans. He encouraged hill farmers to take up the scheme. One condition is that planning must be done and paid for before the application is accepted, the money being refunded later by the Government. I will tell members what has happened: the applications amount to some £13 million, but there is only £1.2 million in the kitty to pay farmers.", "EditedTextHTML": "I would like to refer briefly to the agricultural business improvement scheme— something else that is being done to help hill- farming businesses. In February, Lord Sewel said in a statement that, whatever happened, there would be enough money to fulfil all the ABIS plans. He encouraged hill farmers to take up the scheme. One condition is that planning must be done and paid for before the application is accepted, the money being refunded later by the Government. I will tell members what has happened: the applications amount to some £13 million, but there is only £1.2 million in the kitty to pay farmers.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4826755+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C710570", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 179.0, "ContributionID": 710570, "EditedText": "Will you wind up now, Mr McGrigor?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will you wind up now, Mr McGrigor?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4826755+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2066E64P88C710563", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McGrigor, Jamie", "ID": 2066, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie McGrigor", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Jamie McGrigor (Highlands and Islands) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 165.0, "ContributionID": 710563, "EditedText": "I support Alex Johnstone's amendment, but I am truly horrified by the Executive's amendment. How can we commend the steps that the Executive says that it has taken to help Scottish agriculture in rural Scotland? I suppose that it is referring to the so-called new money, the £40 million that it claims to have made available. I want to show members part of that £40 million. I have in my hand what looks like a cheque book, but is in fact a British calf passport. Farmers use the passports to achieve traceability. The passport would cost our farmers £7, but as part of the new money package for agriculture, we are currently given it free. I am grateful for that until I look at the document that I have in my other hand, which is a Dutch cattle passport. The Dutch cattle passport costs the equivalent of £1.60. Either our system is far more expensive than that of the Dutch, or the value put on our cattle passports is exaggerated, to increase the size of the mythical compensation money. Incidentally, the Dutch passport has a bar code and is extremely easy to use, whereas ours are bulky and old-fashioned in comparison. If members visit any beef suckler calf sale in the Highlands, they will see the extraordinary sight of farmers carrying huge shopping bags—even suitcases—containing the passports. We have never had an agricultural crisis like this one. Since Labour came to power, the crisis has developed with incredible speed. Although farm prices have fallen all over the world, in Britain, we have had by far the worst experience. Sheep farmers have had to watch their ewes being sold for a few pence; their lambs have been sold for less than half what they were worth under the previous Administration. I would love to find a farmer who would not be happy to turn his clock back to 1996. Had farmers known what was going to happen to agriculture under the Labour-Liberal Democrat pact, most would have sold their farms and stock. However, there was no warning of the speed of the collapse.The Government has heaped masses of extremely costly red-tape rules and bureaucratic paper on to the bonfire that is consuming Scottish agriculture at an alarming rate. As I look at the Government benches, I wonder which guy will be on top of that bonfire tomorrow night. There will not be many fireworks in rural Scotland. To most of us who live there, it seems as if there is a plot to destroy rural life that is far more effective than anything conceived by Guy Fawkes.", "EditedTextHTML": "I support Alex Johnstone's amendment, but I am truly horrified by the Executive's amendment. How can we commend the steps that the Executive says that it has taken to help Scottish agriculture in rural Scotland? I suppose that it is referring to the so-called new money, the £40 million that it claims to have made available.

I want to show members part of that £40 million. I have in my hand what looks like a cheque book, but is in fact a British calf passport. Farmers use the passports to achieve traceability. The passport would cost our farmers £7, but as part of the new money package for agriculture, we are currently given it free. I am grateful for that until I look at the document that I have in my other hand, which is a Dutch cattle passport. The Dutch cattle passport costs the equivalent of £1.60. Either our system is far more expensive than that of the Dutch, or the value put on our cattle passports is exaggerated, to increase the size of the mythical compensation money.

Incidentally, the Dutch passport has a bar code and is extremely easy to use, whereas ours are bulky and old-fashioned in comparison. If members visit any beef suckler calf sale in the Highlands, they will see the extraordinary sight of farmers carrying huge shopping bags—even suitcases—containing the passports.

We have never had an agricultural crisis like this one. Since Labour came to power, the crisis has developed with incredible speed. Although farm prices have fallen all over the world, in Britain, we have had by far the worst experience. Sheep farmers have had to watch their ewes being sold for a few pence; their lambs have been sold for less than half what they were worth under the previous Administration. I would love to find a farmer who would not be happy to turn his clock back to 1996. Had farmers known what was going to happen to agriculture under the Labour-Liberal Democrat pact, most would have sold their farms and stock. However, there was no warning of the

speed of the collapse.

The Government has heaped masses of extremely costly red-tape rules and bureaucratic paper on to the bonfire that is consuming Scottish agriculture at an alarming rate. As I look at the Government benches, I wonder which guy will be on top of that bonfire tomorrow night. There will not be many fireworks in rural Scotland. To most of us who live there, it seems as if there is a plot to destroy rural life that is far more effective than anything conceived by Guy Fawkes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4826755+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2066E64P88C710565", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McGrigor, Jamie", "ID": 2066, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie McGrigor", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McGrigor: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 169.0, "ContributionID": 710565, "EditedText": "If Mr Finnie is referring to me, I have no intention of being on top of any fire. We are looking to the future; surely we shall not spend today discussing the BSE crisis all over again. We want to do something positive for rural Scotland. All I suggested was that we might have a slightly cheaper method of traceability, as farmers in other countries seem to have.", "EditedTextHTML": "If Mr Finnie is referring to me, I have no intention of being on top of any fire.

We are looking to the future; surely we shall not spend today discussing the BSE crisis all over again. We want to do something positive for rural Scotland. All I suggested was that we might have a slightly cheaper method of traceability, as farmers in other countries seem to have.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4826755+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2066E64P88C710567", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McGrigor, Jamie", "ID": 2066, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie McGrigor", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McGrigor: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 173.0, "ContributionID": 710567, "EditedText": "That is an interesting point. It had not occurred to me, but it is quite true.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is an interesting point. It had not occurred to me, but it is quite true.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4826755+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C710568", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 175.0, "ContributionID": 710568, "EditedText": "You will have to come to a close, Mr McGrigor.", "EditedTextHTML": "You will have to come to a close, Mr McGrigor.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4826755+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2068E171P304C710572", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stone, Jamie", "ID": 2068, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie Stone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Stone: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 183.0, "ContributionID": 710572, "EditedText": "On a point of order.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4826755+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C710574", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 187.0, "ContributionID": 710574, "EditedText": "Mr McGrigor, we have a point of order.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr McGrigor, we have a point of order.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4826755+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1840E82P158C710579", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macmillan, Maureen", "ID": 1840, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Maureen Macmillan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Maureen Macmillan (Highlands and Islands) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 199.0, "ContributionID": 710579, "EditedText": "Although the SNP motion calls for strategic plans for rural areas, no SNP member has offered a long-term vision for the rural economy. A strategy needs analysis and it must be realised that developments take time; they are built step by step over a period of years. The farming crisis cannot be minimised; it is profound. However, the beef-on-the-bone ban will be lifted relatively soon. Last Saturday, I spoke to a number of crofters who were wondering whether they could access funding and support for horticulture, organic farming and marketing and environmental initiatives. The Executive is addressing all those issues. As for the tourism industry, I have both the text of Tom Buncle's speech and the SNP's press release about it, and I find that the two documents do not match. Members should quote accurately from speeches. Tom Buncle did not mention the phrase \"seriously damaging\", as Fergus Ewing alleges. The SNP should not over-egg the pudding as it tends to do.", "EditedTextHTML": "Although the SNP motion calls for strategic plans for rural areas, no SNP member has offered a long-term vision for the rural economy. A strategy needs analysis and it must be realised that developments take time; they are built step by step over a period of years.

The farming crisis cannot be minimised; it is profound. However, the beef-on-the-bone ban will be lifted relatively soon. Last Saturday, I spoke to a number of crofters who were wondering whether they could access funding and support for horticulture, organic farming and marketing and environmental initiatives. The Executive is addressing all those issues.

As for the tourism industry, I have both the text of Tom Buncle's speech and the SNP's press release about it, and I find that the two documents do not match. Members should quote accurately from speeches. Tom Buncle did not mention the phrase \"seriously damaging\", as Fergus Ewing alleges. The SNP should not over-egg the pudding as it tends to do.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4826755+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1840E82P158C710583", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macmillan, Maureen", "ID": 1840, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Maureen Macmillan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Maureen Macmillan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 207.0, "ContributionID": 710583, "EditedText": "I am not taking any interventions. The subject must be thoroughly examined, and we think we know what has caused the differential in fuel prices. As for information and communications technology, it is a pity that Alasdair Morgan was not among the MSPs who attended the University of the Highlands and Islands presentation on Tuesday night. Through ICT and a partnership involving learning centres in all remote Highlands areas and various colleges, the university system is providing higher education in subjects such as tourism, business and environmental studies, which will benefit the Highlands and bring knowledge and confidence to remote rural areas. Those areas have never had people with such expertise and skills before.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am not taking any interventions.

The subject must be thoroughly examined, and we think we know what has caused the differential in fuel prices.

As for information and communications technology, it is a pity that Alasdair Morgan was not among the MSPs who attended the University of the Highlands and Islands presentation on Tuesday night. Through ICT and a partnership involving learning centres in all remote Highlands areas and various colleges, the university system is providing higher education in subjects such as tourism, business and environmental studies, which will benefit the Highlands and bring knowledge and confidence to remote rural areas. Those areas have never had people with such expertise and skills before.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4826755+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1985E207P501C710589", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hamilton, Mr Duncan", "ID": 1985, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Hamilton: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 221.0, "ContributionID": 710589, "EditedText": "No, thank you.The other thing that the farmers want is a reduction in many of the additional costs that they currently face, costs that are not faced by their European counterparts for exactly the same product. I suggest to the minister that if he really wants to stand up for Scottish farming, it is about levelling that playing field. He talks the talk but is not prepared to deliver when it comes down to it. I want to see issues addressed, such as the costs of veterinary inspections and of having spinal cord removed. They are vital to the farming industry, and I want to hear in the Executive's summation what specific proposals there are for reducing the red tape and for lifting the additional burden that it is imposing. Because this is an SNP debate, it would be unfair if we did not give a few thoughts on our vision for the Highlands and Islands. There is something to be positive about. Mr Morgan was right: e-commerce and the challenges of the internet can and should be adopted by the Highlands and Islands with the greatest speed. That is perhaps the one mechanism for overcoming the physical barriers to transport that the Highlands and Islands face. None the less, although I welcome projects such as the electronic Islay project, on which British Telecommunications is working in partnership with the local community, that does not absolve the Government from all its responsibility. There are still major problems to be faced in the area. For example, what will be the enterprise structure's reaction to the need for an increase in the scale of companies? If a company decides to enter the world of e-commerce, and needs rapidly to increase the scale and scope of its operation, what support will be given by the enterprise boards? Thus far, in my direct discussions with the enterprise companies, I have not been particularly enthused about the vision—or lack of vision—that they are showing. That support must be given, and should dovetail with the efforts of people in the communities. The support does not remove some of the remaining additional costs, for example, high ferry prices, which cripple the Highlands and Islands economy, even though, in 1992, the Scottish Office produced its own research showing that a reduction in ferry fares would not only have a massively beneficial economic spin-off for both ends of the various routes, but would mean that more money was made on the specific ferry route. That research has been done. The Executive does not need to do any more of the thinking, but would it please start to implement the reduction in ferry fares that all our island and rural communities want? While the ministers are at it, perhaps they could finally publish the Government's findings on the Campbeltown to Ballycastle route and on the Clyde ferries, an issue that is now becoming a running sore. They should end that saga and ensure that we can finally achieve the regeneration of the Highlands and Islands that is so badly needed.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, thank you.

The other thing that the farmers want is a reduction in many of the additional costs that they currently face, costs that are not faced by their European counterparts for exactly the same product.

I suggest to the minister that if he really wants to stand up for Scottish farming, it is about levelling that playing field. He talks the talk but is not prepared to deliver when it comes down to it. I want to see issues addressed, such as the costs of veterinary inspections and of having spinal cord removed. They are vital to the farming industry, and I want to hear in the Executive's summation what specific proposals there are for reducing the red tape and for lifting the additional burden that it is imposing.

Because this is an SNP debate, it would be unfair if we did not give a few thoughts on our vision for the Highlands and Islands. There is

something to be positive about. Mr Morgan was right: e-commerce and the challenges of the internet can and should be adopted by the Highlands and Islands with the greatest speed. That is perhaps the one mechanism for overcoming the physical barriers to transport that the Highlands and Islands face.

None the less, although I welcome projects such as the electronic Islay project, on which British Telecommunications is working in partnership with the local community, that does not absolve the Government from all its responsibility. There are still major problems to be faced in the area.

For example, what will be the enterprise structure's reaction to the need for an increase in the scale of companies? If a company decides to enter the world of e-commerce, and needs rapidly to increase the scale and scope of its operation, what support will be given by the enterprise boards? Thus far, in my direct discussions with the enterprise companies, I have not been particularly enthused about the vision—or lack of vision—that they are showing. That support must be given, and should dovetail with the efforts of people in the communities.

The support does not remove some of the remaining additional costs, for example, high ferry prices, which cripple the Highlands and Islands economy, even though, in 1992, the Scottish Office produced its own research showing that a reduction in ferry fares would not only have a massively beneficial economic spin-off for both ends of the various routes, but would mean that more money was made on the specific ferry route.

That research has been done. The Executive does not need to do any more of the thinking, but would it please start to implement the reduction in ferry fares that all our island and rural communities want? While the ministers are at it, perhaps they could finally publish the Government's findings on the Campbeltown to Ballycastle route and on the Clyde ferries, an issue that is now becoming a running sore. They should end that saga and ensure that we can finally achieve the regeneration of the Highlands and Islands that is so badly needed.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.498304+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1873E89P171C710596", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jackson, Dr Sylvia", "ID": 1873, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Stirling" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sylvia Jackson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Jackson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 236.0, "ContributionID": 710596, "EditedText": "The Scottish Executive is making a concerted effort to tackle the problem. I urge members to support the Executive's amendment.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Scottish Executive is making a concerted effort to tackle the problem. I urge members to support the Executive's amendment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.498304+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C710597", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Murray Tosh (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 239.0, "ContributionID": 710597, "EditedText": "Out of no disrespect to the primacy of strictly agricultural issues in this debate, nevertheless I wish to address some of the other aspects of the motion that have not yet featured heavily. Rural housing is one such issue. I was once the convener of the Kyle and Carrick District Council's housing committee, which had an important strategy of developing affordable housing in the area. I want to share my experience of a particular difficulty that I encountered in attempting to facilitate a development in the village of Dunure through a housing association, of which I am now a member, and Scottish Homes. Dunure was a rather difficult village in which to develop housing, but there was a high demand for affordable housing. It is in a scenic location where the National Trust would allow development only in restricted areas because of a conservation order. We found a site that had planning approval and a willing landlord. We did not experience difficulties in persuading landlords to provide sites for affordable housing. Our problem was with Scottish Homes. When it came to developing that particular site, we found that, given its location, the infrastructure costs were well in excess of the guidelines that Scottish Homes operates, even in rural areas. The result was that that development, which otherwise stacked up, did not take place and the piece of ground lies undeveloped. One day, it will be economical and attractive for a private sector developer to develop on it and the only conceivable site for affordable housing in the village will be lost. How many instances are there in rural Scotland where that degree of financial inflexibility inhibits development and rules out the possibility, in planning terms, of acceptable expansions to rural settlements where affordable housing could be created to meet local need? Devolution has provided the opportunity to focus on such difficulties and ministers have time to focus on the details. Given that, I like to think that the Executive might be willing to examine the role of Scottish Homes to determine how it allocates its funding and whether there are flexibilities in the Scottish Homes regime that might facilitate a more varied and constructive approach to providing rural housing. My second point about Scottish Homes is that it is the key player. In almost all parts of Scotland, affordable housing cannot proceed unless a funding mechanism exists and, almost invariably, that funding mechanism means Scottish Homes. When the Government progresses its national housing partnership proposals, I hope that the funding priority for rural housing development that has existed for the past two or three years— indeed, it goes back further than that—is not lost. I do not minimise the importance of new strategies in built and urban areas and of tackling the problems of the major conurbations, but in adopting and embracing those new priorities, it is essential that we should not lose sight of the old priorities. Rural housing must remain an important part of the Executive's policy. Not much has been said on rural transport, but I will mention it briefly. A report by the director of technical services in Scottish Borders Council crossed my desk recently. He had conducted an extensive survey of the road network, in particular of minor roads, in his local authority area. In the chamber, we tend to debate only strategic and trunk roads, and members do not always remember that, until a couple of years ago, far more than 50 per cent of roads expenditure in Scotland was in the revenue accounts of local authorities. It was not capital or Government expenditure, but local authority expenditure. In the past four years, local authority expenditure on road networks has dropped from £480 million in real terms to £340 million in real terms, which represents a 30 per cent decline. Many Scottish councils face a catastrophe whereby roads expenditure—not on new roads or developing the infrastructure, but simply on maintaining the asset safely and assisting local communities—is collapsing. In some cases, councils are close to a state of panic. The Executive, in its reviews of local authority expenditure and transport policy, must not lose sight of the importance to rural communities of maintaining that asset base. I have overrun, Presiding Officer, for which I apologise; I will conclude on that note.", "EditedTextHTML": "Out of no disrespect to the primacy of strictly agricultural issues in this debate, nevertheless I wish to address some of the other aspects of the motion that have not yet featured heavily.

Rural housing is one such issue. I was once the convener of the Kyle and Carrick District Council's housing committee, which had an important strategy of developing affordable housing in the area. I want to share my experience of a particular difficulty that I encountered in attempting to facilitate a development in the village of Dunure through a housing association, of which I am now a member, and Scottish Homes.

Dunure was a rather difficult village in which to develop housing, but there was a high demand for affordable housing. It is in a scenic location where the National Trust would allow development only in restricted areas because of a conservation order. We found a site that had planning approval and a willing landlord. We did not experience difficulties in persuading landlords to provide sites for affordable housing. Our problem was with Scottish Homes. When it came to developing that particular site, we found that, given its location, the infrastructure costs were well in excess of the guidelines that Scottish Homes operates, even in rural areas.

The result was that that development, which otherwise stacked up, did not take place and the piece of ground lies undeveloped. One day, it will be economical and attractive for a private sector developer to develop on it and the only conceivable site for affordable housing in the village will be lost. How many instances are there in rural Scotland where that degree of financial inflexibility inhibits development and rules out the possibility, in planning terms, of acceptable expansions to rural settlements where affordable housing could be created to meet local need?

Devolution has provided the opportunity to focus on such difficulties and ministers have time to focus on the details. Given that, I like to think that the Executive might be willing to examine the role of Scottish Homes to determine how it allocates its funding and whether there are flexibilities in the Scottish Homes regime that might facilitate a more varied and constructive approach to providing rural housing.

My second point about Scottish Homes is that it is the key player. In almost all parts of Scotland, affordable housing cannot proceed unless a funding mechanism exists and, almost invariably, that funding mechanism means Scottish Homes. When the Government progresses its national housing partnership proposals, I hope that the funding priority for rural housing development that has existed for the past two or three years— indeed, it goes back further than that—is not lost. I do not minimise the importance of new strategies in built and urban areas and of tackling the problems of the major conurbations, but in adopting and embracing those new priorities, it is essential that we should not lose sight of the old priorities. Rural housing must remain an important part of the Executive's policy.

Not much has been said on rural transport, but I will mention it briefly. A report by the director of technical services in Scottish Borders Council crossed my desk recently. He had conducted an

extensive survey of the road network, in particular of minor roads, in his local authority area. In the chamber, we tend to debate only strategic and trunk roads, and members do not always remember that, until a couple of years ago, far more than 50 per cent of roads expenditure in Scotland was in the revenue accounts of local authorities. It was not capital or Government expenditure, but local authority expenditure.

In the past four years, local authority expenditure on road networks has dropped from £480 million in real terms to £340 million in real terms, which represents a 30 per cent decline. Many Scottish councils face a catastrophe whereby roads expenditure—not on new roads or developing the infrastructure, but simply on maintaining the asset safely and assisting local communities—is collapsing. In some cases, councils are close to a state of panic. The Executive, in its reviews of local authority expenditure and transport policy, must not lose sight of the importance to rural communities of maintaining that asset base.

I have overrun, Presiding Officer, for which I apologise; I will conclude on that note.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.498304+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1781E188P474C710598", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McGugan, Irene", "ID": 1781, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Irene McGugan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Irene McGugan (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 242.0, "ContributionID": 710598, "EditedText": "According to the definition of deprivation in the 1991 census, there are some 46,000 multiply deprived and 2,500 severely deprived households in rural Scotland. Those households comprise elderly, sick and unemployed people, and single- parent, large and low-income families. Rural Scotland is suffering. Access to services is often regarded as an indicator of disadvantage and there is a strong correlation between the size of a settlement and the provision of a variety of services. Members will not be surprised that agricultural communities generally have the fewest services. Although that has been long recognised, no effective strategy has been developed to deal with the problem. Instead, there has been an expectation that the creation of small, time-limited pots of money such as the rural challenge fund will enable local authorities and their partners to take on the burden of resolving those issues. I well remember, in the formative years of my rural development work, a family outing to a theatre in Edinburgh which shall remain nameless. We travelled 70 miles from home to see a production and incurred all the attendant costs of travel, food and so on. We enjoyed the performance, but it was not the box office success that had been hoped and the theatre decided to make free tickets available to companies to allocate to their employees. I wrote to the manager and congratulated him on making theatre more accessible, but was advised that the offer applied to firms in Edinburgh only. I tried to tell him that people who had to travel a considerable distance and bear other costs would appreciate the free tickets more, but he refused to make any available outside the city limits. That was a defining moment in my career; thereafter, I embraced rural development enthusiastically. There has been a lot in the press this week about the threat to rural post offices. It is estimated that as many as 600 of the 1,800 sub-post offices in Scotland could be forced out of business by the Treasury's proposals, which are for a Government cost-cutting exercise that takes no account of the fact that post offices—often with village shops attached—act as the hubs of communities, and are worthy of preservation regardless of the financial costs. The alternatives will force people to travel considerable distances to access services and will put many sub-postmasters out of work. No account is taken of the fact that more than 250,000 Scottish households have no bank account. The closure of post offices—along with bank branch closures and the disappearance from high streets of utility shops—makes life very difficult for many people from rural communities, whose preferred or only option is to pay bills by cash. Too many rural people are financially excluded and there is a need for free, independent, impartial and confidential money advice to be made available to the vast numbers of people who have multiple debts. Such services are lacking in rural areas and must be organised differently to guarantee confidentiality and access. That is another area in which e-technology can succeed, but it must be much better resourced. No one admits with comfort that they are poor, and there is, after all, a perception that life in the country is ideal. Tell that to the families of the crofters, farmers and fishermen of Scotland. If central belt communities were to face devastation on this scale, it would be headline news every day and ministers would be falling over themselves to take action. Housing is often seen as the most important issue related to sustainable development for rural Scotland, which relies heavily on the private rented sector. There is evidence that some landowners favour local need and that they support the local community through their policies of housing allocation. That must be encouraged. Rural Scotland needs more affordable housing for young people, as well as for the elderly. A lack of affordable accommodation leads to depopulation. Addressing that problem adequately is one of the most important factors in the regeneration of rural economies. Homelessness is hidden in rural areas, but it is a problem. The level of rural homelessness is rising and that has not been addressed by such Government initiatives as the rough sleepers initiative, which is really only appropriate in urban areas. The SNP calls on the Scottish Executive to devise effective rural strategies that address the issues that have been highlighted today. How the Scottish Executive looks after our most remote and most vulnerable communities will dictate how the people of rural Scotland judge the worth of the Scottish Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "According to the definition of deprivation in the 1991 census, there are some 46,000 multiply deprived and 2,500 severely deprived households in rural Scotland. Those households comprise elderly, sick and unemployed people, and single- parent, large and low-income families. Rural Scotland is suffering.

Access to services is often regarded as an indicator of disadvantage and there is a strong correlation between the size of a settlement and the provision of a variety of services. Members will not be surprised that agricultural communities generally have the fewest services. Although that has been long recognised, no effective strategy has been developed to deal with the problem. Instead, there has been an expectation that the creation of small, time-limited pots of money such as the rural challenge fund will enable local authorities and their partners to take on the burden of resolving those issues.

I well remember, in the formative years of my rural development work, a family outing to a theatre in Edinburgh which shall remain nameless. We travelled 70 miles from home to see a production and incurred all the attendant costs of travel, food and so on. We enjoyed the performance, but it was not the box office success that had been hoped and the theatre decided to make free tickets available to companies to allocate to their employees. I wrote to the manager and congratulated him on making theatre more accessible, but was advised that the offer applied to firms in Edinburgh only. I tried to tell him that people who had to travel a considerable distance and bear other costs would appreciate the free tickets more, but he refused to make any available outside the city limits. That was a defining moment in my career; thereafter, I embraced rural development enthusiastically.

There has been a lot in the press this week about the threat to rural post offices. It is estimated that as many as 600 of the 1,800 sub-post offices in Scotland could be forced out of business by the Treasury's proposals, which are for a Government cost-cutting exercise that takes no account of the fact that post offices—often with village shops attached—act as the hubs of communities, and are worthy of preservation regardless of the financial costs. The alternatives will force people to travel considerable distances to access services and will put many sub-postmasters out of work.

No account is taken of the fact that more than 250,000 Scottish households have no bank account. The closure of post offices—along with bank branch closures and the disappearance from high streets of utility shops—makes life very difficult for many people from rural communities, whose preferred or only option is to pay bills by cash. Too many rural people are financially excluded and there is a need for free, independent, impartial and confidential money advice to be made available to the vast numbers of people who have multiple debts. Such services are lacking in rural areas and must be organised differently to guarantee confidentiality and access. That is another area in which e-technology can succeed, but it must be much better resourced.

No one admits with comfort that they are poor, and there is, after all, a perception that life in the country is ideal. Tell that to the families of the crofters, farmers and fishermen of Scotland. If central belt communities were to face devastation on this scale, it would be headline news every day and ministers would be falling over themselves to take action.

Housing is often seen as the most important issue related to sustainable development for rural Scotland, which relies heavily on the private rented sector. There is evidence that some landowners favour local need and that they support the local community through their policies of housing allocation. That must be encouraged. Rural Scotland needs more affordable housing for young people, as well as for the elderly. A lack of affordable accommodation leads to depopulation. Addressing that problem adequately is one of the most important factors in the regeneration of rural economies. Homelessness is hidden in rural areas, but it is a problem. The level of rural

homelessness is rising and that has not been addressed by such Government initiatives as the rough sleepers initiative, which is really only appropriate in urban areas.

The SNP calls on the Scottish Executive to devise effective rural strategies that address the issues that have been highlighted today. How the Scottish Executive looks after our most remote and most vulnerable communities will dictate how the people of rural Scotland judge the worth of the Scottish Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.498304+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1950E155P451C710605", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Campbell, Colin", "ID": 1950, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Colin Campbell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Colin Campbell (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 259.0, "ContributionID": 710605, "EditedText": "I am a West of Scotland MSP and people may be wondering why I am at this debate, but I am a human being and I eat, and farming is fundamental to that activity. Members may be interested to know that my practical experience of farming amounts to two days' work some time around 1952. My school pal and I were standing in a field scything thistles with a German prisoner of war who had not yet decided to go home. After that, I decided that farming was not for me. I have lived for 29 years on the edges of mid- Renfrewshire with fields behind and in front of me, and have seen the changing seasons and the changing patterns of farming. I have not seen a plough laid to any of those fields for at least 10 years. The local farmer's herd went four or five years ago and the fields are now used only for silage or for occasional grazing. The farms about me have been rented out for middle-class horse raising and grazing. A farmer not far from where I live recently sold a third of his fields to pay his debts. The following week, he sold his herd. He will now concentrate on laying turf for gardens. That is not the way ahead. We have a crisis on our hands, and I rather resent the whingeing and moaning tone of the previous speaker. I shall talk about the dairy industry in a little detail. The Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food's statistics show that, in 1995, the average farm-gate price for milk was 24.47p per litre. In August 1999, the price was 17.7p per litre. A couple of days ago, I spoke on the phone to an old school friend of mine who has farmed all his life not far from where I live. He put his prices at 24p in 1996 and 18p now. That farmer sells 900,000 litres of milk a year, so a penny off his farm-gate price is a considerable sum of money. When one considers the fact that his farm-gate price has gone down from 24p to 18p, one realises that that represents a huge amount of money. What happens to that milk? The processor takes the milk, heats it, extracts the fat and cream from it, puts back a standardised amount of cream to meet the requirements on the label on the carton, packages it, sells it on to the consumer at about 46p and still has the cream to sell. The consumer does not do well out of that and the farmer certainly does not do well out of that. Since the demise of the Scottish Milk Marketing Board in 1994, a small number of organisations have had a monopoly on milk processing. A recent investigation by the Competition Commission into Milk Marque's monopoly in England and Wales indicated that perhaps such monopolies should be broken up. However, the Labour UK Government refused to take the advice of the Competition Commission on board. The status quo persists in England and, unless we do something radical here, I imagine that the status quo will persist in this nation too. The dairy industry is in severe difficulties. Another factor is that the farming industry and dairy products are compensated by, and to a degree subsidised by, the common agricultural policy. Unfortunately, those payments are made in euros, and the high rate of the pound means that that has an adverse effect on the amount of compensation that is available to the farming industry in Scotland. Farmers are in a no-win situation. The banks say that farmers' borrowing is no greater than it was last year. In reality, farmers are increasingly leaning on their suppliers and not paying up quickly enough. They cannot realise their assets, because no one wants to buy what they have to sell. A year or two ago a bull calf would fetch £150; now it fetches nothing. There is a good deal of consensus here which recognises that this is a dire crisis. Please, Scottish Executive, get a grip on it.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am a West of Scotland MSP and people may be wondering why I am at this debate, but I am a human being and I eat, and farming is fundamental to that activity. Members may be interested to know that my practical experience of farming amounts to two days' work some time around 1952. My school pal and I were standing in a field scything thistles with a German prisoner of war who had not yet decided to go home. After that, I decided that farming was not for me.

I have lived for 29 years on the edges of mid- Renfrewshire with fields behind and in front of me, and have seen the changing seasons and the changing patterns of farming. I have not seen a plough laid to any of those fields for at least 10 years. The local farmer's herd went four or five years ago and the fields are now used only for silage or for occasional grazing. The farms about me have been rented out for middle-class horse raising and grazing. A farmer not far from where I live recently sold a third of his fields to pay his debts. The following week, he sold his herd. He will now concentrate on laying turf for gardens. That is not the way ahead. We have a crisis on our hands, and I rather resent the whingeing and moaning tone of the previous speaker.

I shall talk about the dairy industry in a little detail. The Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food's statistics show that, in 1995, the average farm-gate price for milk was 24.47p per litre. In August 1999, the price was 17.7p per litre. A couple of days ago, I spoke on the phone to an old school friend of mine who has farmed all his life not far from where I live. He put his prices at 24p in 1996 and 18p now. That farmer sells 900,000 litres of milk a year, so a penny off his farm-gate price is a considerable sum of money. When one considers the fact that his farm-gate price has gone down from 24p to 18p, one realises that that represents a huge amount of money.

What happens to that milk? The processor takes the milk, heats it, extracts the fat and cream from it, puts back a standardised amount of cream to meet the requirements on the label on the carton, packages it, sells it on to the consumer at about 46p and still has the cream to sell. The consumer does not do well out of that and the farmer certainly does not do well out of that.

Since the demise of the Scottish Milk Marketing Board in 1994, a small number of organisations have had a monopoly on milk processing. A recent investigation by the Competition Commission into Milk Marque's monopoly in England and Wales indicated that perhaps such monopolies should be broken up. However, the Labour UK Government refused to take the advice of the Competition Commission on board. The status quo persists in

England and, unless we do something radical here, I imagine that the status quo will persist in this nation too.

The dairy industry is in severe difficulties. Another factor is that the farming industry and dairy products are compensated by, and to a degree subsidised by, the common agricultural policy. Unfortunately, those payments are made in euros, and the high rate of the pound means that that has an adverse effect on the amount of compensation that is available to the farming industry in Scotland.

Farmers are in a no-win situation. The banks say that farmers' borrowing is no greater than it was last year. In reality, farmers are increasingly leaning on their suppliers and not paying up quickly enough. They cannot realise their assets, because no one wants to buy what they have to sell. A year or two ago a bull calf would fetch £150; now it fetches nothing. There is a good deal of consensus here which recognises that this is a dire crisis. Please, Scottish Executive, get a grip on it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.498304+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C710606", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 262.0, "ContributionID": 710606, "EditedText": "I sympathise with much of what has been said. On Saturday I had surgeries in Acharacle and Strontian on the Ardnamurchan peninsula, and on Monday evening I had a community care meeting in Wick. I sympathise when people talk about rural issues and the time spent travelling to meetings. I will briefly mention the agricultural business improvement scheme, which was also mentioned by Jamie McGrigor and Duncan Hamilton. The scheme began with £23 million to help farmers to invest in new buildings and to diversify. Although £6 million has been spent on farming, now, at this time of great crisis, there is £1.5 million left in the fund. A delegation of farmers came to see me and the NFU on Friday to ask where the £15 million that has been spent has gone. They asked that I make this point in the chamber.", "EditedTextHTML": "I sympathise with much of what has been said. On Saturday I had surgeries in Acharacle and Strontian on the Ardnamurchan peninsula, and on Monday evening I had a community care meeting in Wick. I sympathise when people talk about rural issues and the time spent travelling to meetings.

I will briefly mention the agricultural business improvement scheme, which was also mentioned by Jamie McGrigor and Duncan Hamilton. The scheme began with £23 million to help farmers to invest in new buildings and to diversify. Although £6 million has been spent on farming, now, at this time of great crisis, there is £1.5 million left in the fund. A delegation of farmers came to see me and the NFU on Friday to ask where the £15 million that has been spent has gone. They asked that I make this point in the chamber.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.498304+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C710612", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ross Finnie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 275.0, "ContributionID": 710612, "EditedText": "I am listening to every word.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am listening to every word.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.498304+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2068E171P304C710614", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stone, Jamie", "ID": 2068, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie Stone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 280.0, "ContributionID": 710614, "EditedText": "Members will be aware that I represent one of the most remote and sparsely populated constituencies in Britain. The population of Caithness and Sutherland has been dropping steadily for some years and the area is facing severe problems. I will touch on two subjects, the first of which is the agricultural business improvement scheme. Rather than giving my own thoughts, I will quote from two letters from constituents of mine. The first is from people who live in Tongue, in the northwest: \"We submitted our application on 13th August. This application was complete with planning permission, extensive drawings, business plan, percolation tests and letters from Scottish Tourist Board (approx cost £1,200 plus other expenses). As my husband is 60 years old we were hoping that this development would enable him to retire from farming (which would allow a younger person to take over) and we could have gone to live on our croft and have some extra income from the chalets. We were led to believe that this is what the government are encouraging farmers to do.\" This is from a crofter from Oldshoremore, Kinlochbervie: \"With the lamb market so depressed, we saw the ABIS scheme as an ideal way of diversifying, by providing a building for holiday letting. We were encouraged by the Department and the local tourist board, who are very enthusiastic. We have spent nearly £7,000 on architects fees, planning permission and so on.\" Those quotations show the scale of the problem that some of my constituents face. They have gone into debt, encouraged, unfortunately, by the ABIS. Others have outlined funding problems as well. It is only civil for me to thank the minister for his correspondence and the talks that we have had. I appreciate that he is boxed in by a lack of funds, but I appeal to him to try to help those disadvantaged cases that I have raised. The people affected live in a marginal part of the country and are facing problems that may be insuperable. Every job that is lost and every crofter who loses out is another threat to remote, special communities. I will talk briefly about the fuel duty escalator.", "EditedTextHTML": "Members will be aware that I represent one of the most remote and sparsely populated constituencies in Britain. The population of Caithness and Sutherland has been dropping steadily for some years and the area is facing severe problems.

I will touch on two subjects, the first of which is the agricultural business improvement scheme. Rather than giving my own thoughts, I will quote from two letters from constituents of mine. The first is from people who live in Tongue, in the northwest:

\"We submitted our application on 13th August. This application was complete with planning permission, extensive drawings, business plan, percolation tests and letters from Scottish Tourist Board (approx cost £1,200 plus other expenses). As my husband is 60 years old we were hoping that this development would enable him to retire from farming (which would allow a younger person to take over) and we could have gone to live on our croft and have some extra income from the chalets. We were led to believe that this is what the government are encouraging farmers to do.\"

This is from a crofter from Oldshoremore, Kinlochbervie:

\"With the lamb market so depressed, we saw the ABIS scheme as an ideal way of diversifying, by providing a building for holiday letting. We were encouraged by the Department and the local tourist board, who are very enthusiastic. We have spent nearly £7,000 on architects fees, planning permission and so on.\"

Those quotations show the scale of the problem that some of my constituents face. They have gone into debt, encouraged, unfortunately, by the ABIS. Others have outlined funding problems as well.

It is only civil for me to thank the minister for his correspondence and the talks that we have had. I appreciate that he is boxed in by a lack of funds, but I appeal to him to try to help those disadvantaged cases that I have raised. The people affected live in a marginal part of the country and are facing problems that may be insuperable. Every job that is lost and every crofter who loses out is another threat to remote, special communities.

I will talk briefly about the fuel duty escalator.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.498304+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2068E171P304C710616", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stone, Jamie", "ID": 2068, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie Stone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Stone: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 284.0, "ContributionID": 710616, "EditedText": "I heard what Fergus Ewing said. I welcome Ross Finnie's remarks and those of Maureen Macmillan. Members will be aware that Tavish Scott, John Farquhar Munro and I took a petition on the subject to the Treasury—it was the first to be taken from the Scottish Parliament to Westminster. It contained 20,000 signatures. A scheme to vary the rate of VAT would tackle the problem of the fuel duty escalator. There are schemes in other European Union countries—in parts of Italy and France, for example—because, by derogation, it is within the power of national Governments to have such schemes. Members from all parties should encourage the Treasury to examine them. In terms of revenue, petrol sales in the Highlands represent a drop in the ocean, yet varying the rate of VAT would greatly help communities. I want to go further than Fergus Ewing did—we must try to reduce the tax burden. I heard what he said about using the money raised by the fuel duty escalator in the Highlands to fund public transport, but we should, if we can, reduce the effects of the escalator in other ways. I have less than one minute left, so I shall educate Conservative members who exhibited their lack of knowledge, and Mr McLetchie, who exhibited some aggression. Randolph Churchill contested Ross and Cromarty in 1936 in a famous by-election. He spoke in Wester Ross about pig subsidies, but clearly did not know what he was talking about. A constituent shouted from the back of the hall, \"Mr Churchill, can you tell me how many toes a pig has?\" His reply was, \"Take off your boot and count.\"", "EditedTextHTML": "I heard what Fergus Ewing said. I welcome Ross Finnie's remarks and those of Maureen Macmillan. Members will be aware that Tavish Scott, John Farquhar Munro and I took a petition on the subject to the Treasury—it was the first to be taken from the Scottish Parliament to Westminster. It contained 20,000 signatures.

A scheme to vary the rate of VAT would tackle the problem of the fuel duty escalator. There are schemes in other European Union countries—in parts of Italy and France, for example—because, by derogation, it is within the power of national Governments to have such schemes. Members from all parties should encourage the Treasury to examine them.

In terms of revenue, petrol sales in the Highlands represent a drop in the ocean, yet varying the rate of VAT would greatly help communities. I want to go further than Fergus Ewing did—we must try to reduce the tax burden. I heard what he said about using the money raised by the fuel duty escalator in the Highlands to fund public transport, but we should, if we can, reduce the effects of the escalator in other ways.

I have less than one minute left, so I shall educate Conservative members who exhibited their lack of knowledge, and Mr McLetchie, who exhibited some aggression. Randolph Churchill contested Ross and Cromarty in 1936 in a famous by-election. He spoke in Wester Ross about pig subsidies, but clearly did not know what he was talking about. A constituent shouted from the back of the hall, \"Mr Churchill, can you tell me how many toes a pig has?\" His reply was, \"Take off your boot and count.\"

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.498304+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C710618", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr David Davidson (North-East Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 289.0, "ContributionID": 710618, "EditedText": "Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I have got the title right—we have all read the missive that was sent out.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I have got the title right—we have all read the missive that was sent out.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.498304+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C710620", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Davidson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 293.0, "ContributionID": 710620, "EditedText": "I wish that you would accept the title of deputy speaker, which is much simpler. I welcome the opportunity that the SNP has afforded us to continue to discuss important issues that relate to the rural economy. I was annoyed that our debate on the reform of the common agricultural policy lasted only for an hour. I appreciate the fact that the SNP has used its non- Executive time to enable us to discuss rural issues today. I am also grateful to Jamie Stone for the history lesson. Was that election in 1936 one that he fought? Over the past few weeks, and again this morning, many members have described the rural economy as being under siege. In north-east Scotland, I hear that day in, day out. Members have mentioned various issues affecting different sectors of the agricultural community. The rural economy is not just about farming; it is also about access to jobs, which can involve transport for commuting. How do we encourage industry and opportunity into the rural areas when one of the biggest problems that we face is the cost of transport, the costs of fuel and the cost of haulage? Almost everything that moves in the north-east of Scotland and in other rural areas is dependent on road transport and road haulage. We have heard examples of transport companies going under in other parts of Scotland. Many are going under in the north-east of Scotland, too. Much common sense has been spoken in the chamber today. I was especially taken by parts of Euan Robson's speech as he took a practical, common-sense approach—we should support much of what he said. I do not understand why, when Mike Rumbles has an opportunity to speak on behalf of his constituents, all that he talks about is some weird illusion that this issue is about absolution. Does he absolve himself from his pre-election promise to the electorate that the Liberals would fight to get rid of the ban on beef on the bone? Do Liberal Democrat members absolve themselves on that issue?", "EditedTextHTML": "I wish that you would accept the title of deputy speaker, which is much simpler.

I welcome the opportunity that the SNP has afforded us to continue to discuss important issues that relate to the rural economy. I was annoyed that our debate on the reform of the common agricultural policy lasted only for an hour. I appreciate the fact that the SNP has used its non- Executive time to enable us to discuss rural issues today. I am also grateful to Jamie Stone for the history lesson. Was that election in 1936 one that he fought?

Over the past few weeks, and again this morning, many members have described the rural economy as being under siege. In north-east Scotland, I hear that day in, day out. Members have mentioned various issues affecting different sectors of the agricultural community.

The rural economy is not just about farming; it is also about access to jobs, which can involve transport for commuting. How do we encourage industry and opportunity into the rural areas when one of the biggest problems that we face is the cost of transport, the costs of fuel and the cost of haulage? Almost everything that moves in the north-east of Scotland and in other rural areas is dependent on road transport and road haulage.

We have heard examples of transport companies going under in other parts of Scotland. Many are going under in the north-east of Scotland, too. Much common sense has been spoken in the chamber today. I was especially taken by parts of Euan Robson's speech as he took a practical, common-sense approach—we should support much of what he said.

I do not understand why, when Mike Rumbles has an opportunity to speak on behalf of his constituents, all that he talks about is some weird illusion that this issue is about absolution. Does he absolve himself from his pre-election promise to the electorate that the Liberals would fight to get rid of the ban on beef on the bone? Do Liberal Democrat members absolve themselves on that issue?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.498304+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2140E187P335C710621", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Rumbles, Mike", "ID": 2140, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Rumbles", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Rumbles rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 295.0, "ContributionID": 710621, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.498304+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C710622", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Davidson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 297.0, "ContributionID": 710622, "EditedText": "Mr Rumbles is trying to intervene again and Mr Lyon has the podium in front of him, so he is obviously preparing to launch into a tirade yet again. Absolution should perhaps start at home for the Liberal Democrat members. When I was a councillor for a rural area, one of the issues that came out clearly was that in all sectors of society there were problems of isolation—I am also thinking of isolation from services, including from youth services. I am concerned that isolation can turn into loneliness, which can lead to various forms of substance abuse, including alcohol abuse. Those problems are difficult to address because many rural people are private people. The problems exist, none the less. When I was a member of Stirling Council, I found it difficult to get across the message to the council that urban solutions could not be applied everywhere. Councils use urban poverty indicators, which do not properly address the issues in rural areas. I want a commitment from the Executive that it will review, with councils, the problem of a lack of distinct rural poverty indicators. The fact that someone uses a car should not be held against them. It may be the only way in which they can take up a job opportunity, go for medical attention or get training. I used to have a trainee on the farm; the only way in which he could get further training to improve his lot was for me to put him in a motor car and drive him there. We must examine all those issues. This is not just about farming; it is about opportunities, social inclusion and people's access to recreation. I ask the Executive to please consider setting up meaningful rural poverty indicators. Last week, I received a phone call from a constituent who wanted to follow up on a matter that he and his colleagues had been pressing for some time. The call was from a member of the young farmers clubs of Scotland, who, with his colleagues, had made a plea in the press to be heard. In many ways, those young people are the future of our rural economy and I hope that the minister—I know that he has had meetings with them—will listen to what they say. They are being pragmatic and realistic about the future; they have a breadth of experience and seek opportunity within a thriving Scottish rural community.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Rumbles is trying to intervene again and Mr Lyon has the podium in front of him, so he is obviously preparing to launch into a tirade yet again. Absolution should perhaps start at home for the Liberal Democrat members.

When I was a councillor for a rural area, one of the issues that came out clearly was that in all sectors of society there were problems of isolation—I am also thinking of isolation from services, including from youth services. I am concerned that isolation can turn into loneliness, which can lead to various forms of substance abuse, including alcohol abuse.

Those problems are difficult to address because many rural people are private people. The problems exist, none the less. When I was a member of Stirling Council, I found it difficult to get across the message to the council that urban solutions could not be applied everywhere. Councils use urban poverty indicators, which do not properly address the issues in rural areas. I want a commitment from the Executive that it will review, with councils, the problem of a lack of distinct rural poverty indicators.

The fact that someone uses a car should not be held against them. It may be the only way in which they can take up a job opportunity, go for medical attention or get training. I used to have a trainee on the farm; the only way in which he could get further training to improve his lot was for me to put him in a motor car and drive him there.

We must examine all those issues. This is not just about farming; it is about opportunities, social inclusion and people's access to recreation. I ask the Executive to please consider setting up meaningful rural poverty indicators.

Last week, I received a phone call from a constituent who wanted to follow up on a matter that he and his colleagues had been pressing for some time. The call was from a member of the young farmers clubs of Scotland, who, with his colleagues, had made a plea in the press to be heard. In many ways, those young people are the future of our rural economy and I hope that the minister—I know that he has had meetings with them—will listen to what they say. They are being pragmatic and realistic about the future; they have a breadth of experience and seek opportunity within a thriving Scottish rural community.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.498304+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C710624", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ross Finnie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 302.0, "ContributionID": 710624, "EditedText": "Dr Ewing makes a valid point. However, does she accept that now, under the Scottish Executive, and following a most unfortunate case in south Harris, which was drawn to my attention, the rural affairs department no longer requires the kind of practice to which she has drawn our attention? In remote crofting areas, we are calling for counts only at a time when the people involved—who include the postmaster and others—are available to conduct them? Does she accept that that is a substantial improvement on the previous situation?", "EditedTextHTML": "Dr Ewing makes a valid point. However, does she accept that now, under the Scottish Executive, and following a most unfortunate case in south Harris, which was drawn to my attention, the rural affairs department no longer requires the kind of practice to which she has drawn our attention? In remote crofting areas, we are calling for counts only at a time when the people involved—who include the postmaster and others—are available to conduct them? Does she accept that that is a substantial improvement on the previous situation?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.498304+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1892E34P73C710638", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Fergusson, Alex", "ID": 1892, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Fergusson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Fergusson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 333.0, "ContributionID": 710638, "EditedText": "Oh, go on.", "EditedTextHTML": "Oh, go on.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.498304+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C710641", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ross Finnie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 340.0, "ContributionID": 710641, "EditedText": "I will not go into the private grief of Mr Fergusson's broken-faced ewes. Many of today's speeches have been very positive. I agree with many of Mike Russell's opening remarks: there is a case for trying to bring the rural and urban parts of Scotland together. Because there has been a lack of political focus for so long, one way of doing that has been, paradoxically, to create a separate rural affairs department and ministry. The Executive has done that with the purpose of doing one thing and one thing alone: not to set rural Scotland apart, but to ensure that, at the heart of Government, this question is constantly asked—what is the rural dimension in all of the mainstream policies that we pursue? In his helpful speech, I am not sure why Mike Russell wanted to question that a chartered accountant had any helpful contribution to make.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will not go into the private grief of Mr Fergusson's broken-faced ewes.

Many of today's speeches have been very positive. I agree with many of Mike Russell's opening remarks: there is a case for trying to bring the rural and urban parts of Scotland together. Because there has been a lack of political focus for so long, one way of doing that has been,

paradoxically, to create a separate rural affairs department and ministry. The Executive has done that with the purpose of doing one thing and one thing alone: not to set rural Scotland apart, but to ensure that, at the heart of Government, this question is constantly asked—what is the rural dimension in all of the mainstream policies that we pursue?

In his helpful speech, I am not sure why Mike Russell wanted to question that a chartered accountant had any helpful contribution to make.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.498304+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C710645", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ross Finnie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 348.0, "ContributionID": 710645, "EditedText": "As each policy that is presented to this Parliament has a rural dimension, the amount of spending on rural areas will be increased. The Executive's vision is to bring the people I mentioned closer together. I was asked for a strategic view and why I needed to bring in Andrew Dewar-Durie. I will tell members. In an industry that produces four times as much sheepmeat as we consume, we have to have strategies that go way beyond those that currently exist. As we are taking a forward view, and not simply adopting the sticking-plaster approach of the past, it seemed valuable to bring into the debate someone with immense international experience in the industry who could give an overview of how to move forward.", "EditedTextHTML": "As each policy that is presented to this Parliament has a rural dimension, the amount of spending on rural areas will be increased.

The Executive's vision is to bring the people I mentioned closer together. I was asked for a strategic view and why I needed to bring in Andrew Dewar-Durie. I will tell members. In an industry that produces four times as much sheepmeat as we consume, we have to have strategies that go way beyond those that currently exist. As we are taking a forward view, and not simply adopting the sticking-plaster approach of the past, it seemed valuable to bring into the debate someone with immense international experience in the industry who could give an overview of how to move forward.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.498304+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C710647", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ross Finnie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 352.0, "ContributionID": 710647, "EditedText": "I have made it clear that the Executive has members of the National Farmers Union of Scotland on the committees that are examining red tape and trying to help the sector. I am in no doubt that the Executive is not at all complacent. We know that every sector of the industry faces problems. The solution is not to look only at the previous subsidy regimes. The new common agricultural policy regime does nothing more than provide a financial underbelly. I hope that that will help, but to make progress we must consider all the sectors as businesses. We must consider Scottish food as a business and promote it as a business. Agriculture comes into that.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have made it clear that the Executive has members of the National Farmers

Union of Scotland on the committees that are examining red tape and trying to help the sector. I am in no doubt that the Executive is not at all complacent. We know that every sector of the industry faces problems. The solution is not to look only at the previous subsidy regimes. The new common agricultural policy regime does nothing more than provide a financial underbelly. I hope that that will help, but to make progress we must consider all the sectors as businesses. We must consider Scottish food as a business and promote it as a business. Agriculture comes into that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.498304+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1893E47P78C710655", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnstone, Alex", "ID": 1893, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Johnstone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Johnstone: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 369.0, "ContributionID": 710655, "EditedText": "Many rural businesses employ only a handful of people and unemployment often affects only one or two people at a time. Does the member agree that it is a disgrace that those figures are not added up and that there is a failure to realise the size of the unemployment crisis in rural Scotland?", "EditedTextHTML": "Many rural businesses employ only a handful of people and unemployment often affects only one or two people at a time. Does the member agree that it is a disgrace that those figures are not added up and that there is a failure to realise the size of the unemployment crisis in rural Scotland?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.498304+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C710657", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 373.0, "ContributionID": 710657, "EditedText": "Will Richard Lochhead give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Richard Lochhead give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.498304+00:00" }, { "ID": "C710672", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26989, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 389.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 389.0, "ID": 26989, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 398.0, "ContributionID": 710672, "EditedText": "5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business Debate on the subject of S1M-223 Dr Elaine Murray: Pardon for Executed Soldiers", "EditedTextHTML": "5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business Debate on the subject of S1M-223 Dr Elaine Murray: Pardon for Executed Soldiers

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.498304+00:00" }, { "ID": "C710675", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26989, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 389.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 389.0, "ID": 26989, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 401.0, "ContributionID": 710675, "EditedText": "5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business Thursday 18 November 1999 9.30 am Debate on an Executive motion on the Modernisation of the Scottish Economy followed by Business Motion followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions", "EditedTextHTML": "5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business Thursday 18 November 1999 9.30 am Debate on an Executive motion on the Modernisation of the Scottish Economy followed by Business Motion followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.498304+00:00" }, { "ID": "C710680", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26989, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 389.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 389.0, "ID": 26989, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 407.0, "ContributionID": 710680, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "C710681", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26989, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 389.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 389.0, "ID": 26989, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 408.0, "ContributionID": 710681, "EditedText": "Question, That the meeting be now adjourned until 2.30 pm today, put and agreed to.—Mr McCabe.", "EditedTextHTML": "Question, That the meeting be now adjourned until 2.30 pm today, put and agreed to.—[Mr McCabe.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C710689", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Trident", "QuestionHeadingID": 26993, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 421.0, "DisplayOrder": 421.0, "ID": 26993, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 426.0, "ContributionID": 710689, "EditedText": "Views on the nuclear deterrent and its presence are well known, especially the views of the Scottish National party. I have already made it clear that I do not intend to comment on the merits of the sheriff's judgment. Law officers have confirmed that they will refer the matter to the High Court for its consideration. It would be wholly inappropriate for me to comment at this stage.", "EditedTextHTML": "Views on the nuclear deterrent and its presence are well known, especially the views of the Scottish National party. I have already made it clear that I do not intend to comment on the merits of the sheriff's judgment. Law officers have confirmed that they will refer the matter to the High Court for its consideration. It would be wholly inappropriate for me to comment at this stage.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C710697", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Scottish Prison Service", "QuestionHeadingID": 26995, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 437.0, "DisplayOrder": 437.0, "ID": 26995, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 444.0, "ContributionID": 710697, "EditedText": "Can the minister assure me that time-off-in-lieu hours that are due to prison officers will be given as time off in lieu and will not have to be paid over the next 12 months?", "EditedTextHTML": "Can the minister assure me that time-off-in-lieu hours that are due to prison officers will be given as time off in lieu and will not have to be paid over the next 12 months?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C710698", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Scottish Prison Service", "QuestionHeadingID": 26995, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 437.0, "DisplayOrder": 437.0, "ID": 26995, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Angus MacKay: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 446.0, "ContributionID": 710698, "EditedText": "The average time off in lieu that is owed is 19.6 hours per head, which is a little more than two shifts per member of staff. That is entirely in keeping with standard practice. An action group has been set up by the Scottish Prison Service to examine the re-provisioning of the Scottish Prison Service's budget, over the coming weeks and months. It will be for that group to make recommendations about the way in which time off in lieu is dealt with.", "EditedTextHTML": "The average time off in lieu that is owed is 19.6 hours per head, which is a little more than two shifts per member of staff. That is entirely in keeping with standard practice. An action group has been set up by the Scottish Prison Service to examine the re-provisioning of the Scottish Prison Service's budget, over the coming weeks and months. It will be for that group to make recommendations about the way in which time off in lieu is dealt with.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2117E79P104C710703", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Pigmeat", "QuestionHeadingID": 26997, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 453.0, "DisplayOrder": 453.0, "ID": 26997, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macdonald, Lewis", "ID": 2117, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lewis Macdonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Lewis Macdonald: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 458.0, "ContributionID": 710703, "EditedText": "As the minister clearly agrees with me that Scottish pig producers are to be commended for the quality of their produce, does he further agree that our partners in the European Union could learn much from the standards that have been set by the Scottish industry? When he has the opportunity to do so, will he seek to persuade our partners to raise their standards to Scottish levels?", "EditedTextHTML": "As the minister clearly agrees with me that Scottish pig producers are to be commended for the quality of their produce, does he further agree that our partners in the European Union could learn much from the standards that have been set by the Scottish industry? When he has the opportunity to do so, will he seek to persuade our partners to raise their standards to Scottish levels?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1906E278P355C710705", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Ambulance Service", "QuestionHeadingID": 26998, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 462.0, "DisplayOrder": 462.0, "ID": 26998, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Welsh, Andrew", "ID": 1906, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Angus" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Welsh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "7. Mr Andrew Welsh (Angus) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 463.0, "ContributionID": 710705, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive how many ambulances are provided in Angus between the hours of 6 pm and 8 am. (S1O-513) The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): It is for local health boards and national health service trusts to determine the health needs of local areas and the appropriate level of services that is required to meet those needs. I can, however, advise Mr Welsh that four emergency vehicles are provided in Angus between the hours of 6 pm and 8 am. Tayside Health Board and the Scottish Ambulance Service would be happy to provide any further information that Mr Welsh may require.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive how many ambulances are provided in Angus between the hours of 6 pm and 8 am. (S1O-513) The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): It is for local health boards and national health service trusts to determine the health needs of local areas and the appropriate level of services that is required to meet those needs. I can, however, advise Mr Welsh that four emergency vehicles are provided in Angus between the hours of 6 pm and 8 am. Tayside Health Board and the Scottish Ambulance Service would be happy to provide any further information that Mr Welsh may require.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1906E278P355C710708", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Ambulance Service", "QuestionHeadingID": 26998, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 462.0, "DisplayOrder": 462.0, "ID": 26998, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Welsh, Andrew", "ID": 1906, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Angus" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Welsh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Welsh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 469.0, "ContributionID": 710708, "EditedText": "That acute services review does not take into account the impact on ambulances. Will the minister look into that, to avoid an obvious future problem?", "EditedTextHTML": "That acute services review does not take into account the impact on ambulances. Will the minister look into that, to avoid an obvious future problem?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2068E171P304C710710", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Public Service Job Relocation", "QuestionHeadingID": 26999, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 473.0, "DisplayOrder": 473.0, "ID": 26999, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stone, Jamie", "ID": 2068, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie Stone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "8. Mr Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 474.0, "ContributionID": 710710, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what further consideration it is giving to the relocation of public service jobs, particularly in relation to departments or agencies with rural responsibilities, to the Scottish Highlands. (S1O519) The First Minister (Donald Dewar): Our policy on the location and relocation of public service jobs was set out in my statement of 15 September in response to a question from Mr Duncan McNeil. We will seek opportunities to locate the work of the Executive and related bodies as close as possible to the communities that they serve. That is consistent with our objectives of efficiency and effectiveness.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what further consideration it is giving to the relocation of public service jobs, particularly in relation to departments or agencies with rural responsibilities, to the Scottish Highlands. (S1O519) The First Minister (Donald Dewar): Our policy on the location and relocation of public service jobs was set out in my statement of 15 September in response to a question from Mr Duncan McNeil. We will seek opportunities to locate the work of the Executive and related bodies as close as possible to the communities that they serve. That is consistent with our objectives of efficiency and effectiveness.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2068E171P304C710711", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Public Service Job Relocation", "QuestionHeadingID": 26999, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 473.0, "DisplayOrder": 473.0, "ID": 26999, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stone, Jamie", "ID": 2068, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie Stone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Stone: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 476.0, "ContributionID": 710711, "EditedText": "Does the First Minister agree that moving the aquaculture division of the Scottish Executive rural affairs department to Kinlochbervie or to Lerwick, or encouraging the Highlands and Islands partnership programme or its successor organisation to move out of Inverness, would provide vital jobs and would also strengthen the government of Scotland?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the First Minister agree that moving the aquaculture division of the Scottish Executive rural affairs department to Kinlochbervie or to Lerwick, or encouraging the Highlands and Islands partnership programme or its successor organisation to move out of Inverness, would provide vital jobs and would also strengthen the government of Scotland?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C710716", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Stobhill Hospital", "QuestionHeadingID": 27000, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 480.0, "DisplayOrder": 480.0, "ID": 27000, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 487.0, "ContributionID": 710716, "EditedText": "I am assured that the local health authorities are employing effective processes to take forward that important aspect of service development. In due course, they will put proposals to the Scottish Executive and we will consider them carefully.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am assured that the local health authorities are employing effective processes to take forward that important aspect of service development. In due course, they will put proposals to the Scottish Executive and we will consider them carefully.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1768E72P274C710720", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Pig Industry", "QuestionHeadingID": 27002, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 496.0, "DisplayOrder": 496.0, "ID": 27002, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Murray, Elaine", "ID": 1768, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumfries" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Murray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "11. Dr Elaine Murray (Dumfries) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 497.0, "ContributionID": 710720, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what it considers to be the contribution of the pig industry to the economy. (S1O-542) The Minister for Rural Affairs (Ross Finnie): In 1998, the output of the pig industry in Scotland was worth £72 million at the farm gate, which equates to just under 4 per cent of the total Scottish agricultural output. To put that into perspective, in recent years Scottish agricultural gross domestic product has declined to somewhere between 1½ and 2 per cent of the total GDP of the Scottish economy.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what it considers to be the contribution of the pig industry to the economy. (S1O-542) The Minister for Rural Affairs (Ross Finnie): In 1998, the output of the pig industry in Scotland was worth £72 million at the farm gate, which equates to just under 4 per cent of the total Scottish agricultural output. To put that into perspective, in recent years Scottish agricultural gross domestic product has declined to somewhere between 1½ and 2 per cent of the total GDP of the Scottish economy.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1926E190P479C710723", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "New Opportunities Fund", "QuestionHeadingID": 27003, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 503.0, "DisplayOrder": 503.0, "ID": 27003, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Adam, Brian", "ID": 1926, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Adam", "SpeakerDisplayName": "12. Brian Adam (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 504.0, "ContributionID": 710723, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will make representations to Her Majesty's Government to encourage the national lottery board to expedite the release of the £17.25 million cancer initiative funding for Scotland from the new opportunities fund. (S1O-516)", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will make representations to Her Majesty's Government to encourage the national lottery board to expedite the release of the £17.25 million cancer initiative funding for Scotland from the new opportunities fund. (S1O-516)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C710726", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "New Opportunities Fund", "QuestionHeadingID": 27003, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 503.0, "DisplayOrder": 503.0, "ID": 27003, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 510.0, "ContributionID": 710726, "EditedText": "We all share the view and are keen that this important new investment—which, I stress, is in addition to existing NHS investment— be put to use as soon as practically possible, to tackle cancer prevention and detection and to give care to cancer patients. A balance must be struck, however, to ensure that the process of allocating the sum is fair and effective, alongside getting the money where we want it to be. Such a balance has been struck in this case.", "EditedTextHTML": "We all share the view and are keen that this important new investment—which, I stress, is in addition to existing NHS investment— be put to use as soon as practically possible, to tackle cancer prevention and detection and to give care to cancer patients. A balance must be struck, however, to ensure that the process of allocating the sum is fair and effective, alongside getting the money where we want it to be. Such a balance has been struck in this case.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C710730", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Ninewells Hospital", "QuestionHeadingID": 27004, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 512.0, "DisplayOrder": 512.0, "ID": 27004, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 519.0, "ContributionID": 710730, "EditedText": "I am determined to ensure that people in Tayside, as elsewhere in Scotland, have high-quality, accessible services. It is important, however, that we recognise that there are ways of taking those processes forward. I believe that the exercise in which the chief medical officer is currently involved will take account of the needs of each part of Scotland, to ensure that we have the highest standard of service for all areas.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am determined to ensure that people in Tayside, as elsewhere in Scotland, have high-quality, accessible services. It is important, however, that we recognise that there are ways of taking those processes forward. I believe that the exercise in which the chief medical officer is currently involved will take account of the needs of each part of Scotland, to ensure that we have the highest standard of service for all areas.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C710734", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Glasgow Council Housing", "QuestionHeadingID": 27005, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 521.0, "DisplayOrder": 521.0, "ID": 27005, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 528.0, "ContributionID": 710734, "EditedText": "Fiona! Laughter. The view of the Scottish Executive is that as a Scottish housing minister I would be failing in my duty were I not to work with the City of Glasgow to develop proposals—I stress \"work with\", because I am the joint chair of the steering group. Fiona raises a legitimate point, and I have taken steps to ensure that I will not be the minister making final decisions on the new housing partnership bids that come forward.", "EditedTextHTML": "Fiona! [Laughter.] The view of the Scottish Executive is that as a Scottish housing minister I would be failing in my duty were I not to work with the City of Glasgow to develop proposals—I stress \"work with\", because I am the joint chair of the steering group. Fiona raises a legitimate point, and I have taken steps to ensure that I will not be the minister making final decisions on the new housing partnership bids that come forward.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C710735", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Blood Donation", "QuestionHeadingID": 27006, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 530.0, "DisplayOrder": 530.0, "ID": 27006, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "15. Miss Annabel Goldie (West of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 531.0, "ContributionID": 710735, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it has any plans to launch an initiative to raise the profile of blood donation in Scotland given that only 5 per cent of the Scottish population currently donates blood. (S1O-509) The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): The Scottish National Blood Transfusion Service constantly works to increase blood collection through an on-going programme of initiatives. Specific initiatives are already being planned for the run-up to Christmas and the millennium, designed to highlight the importance of blood donation and encourage more people to give blood. I welcome any suggestions that Mrs Goldie or any other members may have for future initiatives that we may wish to consider.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it has any plans to launch an initiative to raise the profile of blood donation in Scotland given that only 5 per cent of the Scottish population currently donates blood. (S1O-509) The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): The Scottish National Blood Transfusion Service constantly works to increase blood collection through an on-going programme of initiatives. Specific initiatives are already being planned for the run-up to Christmas and the millennium, designed to highlight the importance of blood donation and encourage more people to give blood. I welcome any suggestions that Mrs Goldie or any other members may have for future initiatives that we may wish to consider.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710736", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Blood Donation", "QuestionHeadingID": 27006, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 530.0, "DisplayOrder": 530.0, "ID": 27006, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 533.0, "ContributionID": 710736, "EditedText": "She cannot make suggestions now—she can ask another question.", "EditedTextHTML": "She cannot make suggestions now—she can ask another question.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C710737", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Blood Donation", "QuestionHeadingID": 27006, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 530.0, "DisplayOrder": 530.0, "ID": 27006, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Goldie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 535.0, "ContributionID": 710737, "EditedText": "I thank the minister for that fullreply and for getting me married as well. Laughter.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the minister for that full

reply and for getting me married as well. [Laughter.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C710740", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Blood Donation", "QuestionHeadingID": 27006, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 530.0, "DisplayOrder": 530.0, "ID": 27006, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Goldie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 541.0, "ContributionID": 710740, "EditedText": "Given that since the inception of the Parliament many sections of the public have been baying for the blood of MSPs, does the minister agree that there is now a laudable and, indeed, novel opportunity for MSPs to give the public what they want, by going to the conveniently located centre at Laurieston Place as soon as possible, and giving as many pints as we can?", "EditedTextHTML": "Given that since the inception of the Parliament many sections of the public have been baying for the blood of MSPs, does the minister agree that there is now a laudable and, indeed, novel opportunity for MSPs to give the public what they want, by going to the conveniently located centre at Laurieston Place as soon as possible, and giving as many pints as we can?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1762E216P508C710742", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Blood Donation", "QuestionHeadingID": 27006, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 530.0, "DisplayOrder": 530.0, "ID": 27006, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Elder, Dorothy-Grace", "ID": 1762, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder (Glasgow) (SNP) rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 545.0, "ContributionID": 710742, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C710749", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Waste Recycling", "QuestionHeadingID": 27008, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 560.0, "DisplayOrder": 560.0, "ID": 27008, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "17. Mr Murray Tosh (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 561.0, "ContributionID": 710749, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what proposals it has to encourage householders to minimise their output of domestic waste and to encourage waste recycling. (S1O-498) The Minister for Transport and the Environment (Sarah Boyack): We are committed to adopting a national strategy for waste by the end of this year. The Scottish Environment Protection Agency is working on a strategy that will cover waste minimisation and recycling.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what proposals it has to encourage householders to minimise their output of domestic waste and to encourage waste recycling. (S1O-498) The Minister for Transport and the Environment (Sarah Boyack): We are committed to adopting a national strategy for waste by the end of this year. The Scottish Environment Protection Agency is working on a strategy that will cover waste minimisation and recycling.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C710750", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Waste Recycling", "QuestionHeadingID": 27008, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 560.0, "DisplayOrder": 560.0, "ID": 27008, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 563.0, "ContributionID": 710750, "EditedText": "Will the minister assure me that she has no proposals to levy charges on householders for the collection and disposal of domestic refuse, and that no officers in her department are working on any such scheme?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister assure me that she has no proposals to levy charges on householders for the collection and disposal of domestic refuse, and that no officers in her department are working on any such scheme?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710757", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Pig Industry", "QuestionHeadingID": 27009, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "DisplayOrder": 567.0, "ID": 27009, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 578.0, "ContributionID": 710757, "EditedText": "The word amen would have done.", "EditedTextHTML": "The word amen would have done.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1873E89P171C710758", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Youth Services", "QuestionHeadingID": 27010, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 580.0, "DisplayOrder": 580.0, "ID": 27010, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jackson, Dr Sylvia", "ID": 1873, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Stirling" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sylvia Jackson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "19. Dr Sylvia Jackson (Stirling) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 581.0, "ContributionID": 710758, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive how it envisages the work of organisations offering a holistic advice service to young people, such as Off the Record in Stirling and The Corner in Dundee, being supported in their pioneering work to provide a confidential, accessible and multi-agency approach to help young people deal with increasing drug-related problems. (S1O-502) The Deputy Minister for Justice (Angus MacKay): I announced a new drug prevention and effectiveness unit on 21 September. It will help locally based drug action teams to target the most effective ways of tackling long-running drug misuse problems. I believe that it will be of great help to organisations such as Off the Record and The Corner.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive how it envisages the work of organisations offering a holistic advice service to young people, such as Off the Record in Stirling and The Corner in Dundee, being supported in their pioneering work to provide a confidential, accessible and multi-agency approach to help young people deal with increasing drug-related problems. (S1O-502) The Deputy Minister for Justice (Angus MacKay): I announced a new drug prevention and effectiveness unit on 21 September. It will help locally based drug action teams to target the most effective ways of tackling long-running drug misuse problems. I believe that it will be of great help to organisations such as Off the Record and The Corner.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C710761", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "School Closures", "QuestionHeadingID": 27011, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 587.0, "DisplayOrder": 587.0, "ID": 27011, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "20. Andrew Wilson (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 588.0, "ContributionID": 710761, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it regards recent school closures to be as a result of the current local government spending allocation. (S1O-546)", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it regards recent school closures to be as a result of the current local government spending allocation. (S1O-546)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2167E79P155C710762", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "School Closures", "QuestionHeadingID": 27011, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 587.0, "DisplayOrder": 587.0, "ID": 27011, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Peacock, Peter", "ID": 2167, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Peter Peacock", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Children and Education (Peter Peacock): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 590.0, "ContributionID": 710762, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1854E38P164C710765", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Council of the Isles", "QuestionHeadingID": 27012, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 596.0, "DisplayOrder": 596.0, "ID": 27012, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Godman, Trish", "ID": 1854, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Renfrewshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Trish Godman", "SpeakerDisplayName": "21. Trish Godman (West Renfrewshire) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 597.0, "ContributionID": 710765, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what preliminary discussions have been held with the designated assemblies and Her Majesty's Government concerning the structure, functions and membership of the proposed council of the isles. (S1O-533)", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what preliminary discussions have been held with the designated assemblies and Her Majesty's Government concerning the structure, functions and membership of the proposed council of the isles. (S1O-533)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1854E38P164C710767", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Council of the Isles", "QuestionHeadingID": 27012, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 596.0, "DisplayOrder": 596.0, "ID": 27012, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Godman, Trish", "ID": 1854, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Renfrewshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Trish Godman", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Trish Godman: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 601.0, "ContributionID": 710767, "EditedText": "The minister said that the council depends on the setting up of the Northern Ireland Assembly. Nevertheless, no doubt the London and Dublin Governments have an agenda for the council of the isles. Does the minister agree that it would be helpful if we had a position paper on the council relating to its structures, agenda and membership?", "EditedTextHTML": "The minister said that the council depends on the setting up of the Northern Ireland Assembly. Nevertheless, no doubt the London and Dublin Governments have an agenda for the council of the isles. Does the minister agree that it would be helpful if we had a position paper on the council relating to its structures, agenda and membership?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C710768", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Council of the Isles", "QuestionHeadingID": 27012, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 596.0, "DisplayOrder": 596.0, "ID": 27012, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 603.0, "ContributionID": 710768, "EditedText": "We will examine that matter at the appropriate time.", "EditedTextHTML": "We will examine that matter at the appropriate time.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C710775", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27014, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 612.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27015, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 613.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 27016, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 614.0, "DisplayOrder": 614.0, "ID": 27016, "ParentID": 27015 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 621.0, "ContributionID": 710775, "EditedText": "The difference is that some of us went down to London to vote for the disabled—the First Minister went down to vote against the rights of disabled people. I heard it said that it was not a cut in incapacity benefit, so does the First Minister consider it to be right that someone on £85 a week will face the withdrawal of incapacity benefit at a rate of 50p in the pound? That is a higher marginal rate of tax than that faced by the richest person in the country.", "EditedTextHTML": "The difference is that some of us went down to London to vote for the disabled—the First Minister went down to vote against the rights of disabled people. I heard it said that it was not a cut in incapacity benefit, so does the First Minister consider it to be right that someone on £85 a week will face the withdrawal of incapacity benefit at a rate of 50p in the pound? That is a higher marginal rate of tax than that faced by the richest person in the country.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C710784", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27014, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 612.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27015, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 613.0, "QuestionHeading": "Law and Order", "QuestionHeadingID": 27017, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 635.0, "DisplayOrder": 635.0, "ID": 27017, "ParentID": 27015 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 640.0, "ContributionID": 710784, "EditedText": "If the Scottish Executive is committed to being tough on crime and tough on the causes of crime—to use a particularly discredited soundbite—can the Deputy First Minister explain why it is robbing Peter, in the form of the Scottish Prison Service, to pay Paul, in the form of the drugs enforcement agency? Does that not show that, far from the joined-up government—a favourite Liberal Democrat soundbite, as I recall—that we were promised, the right hand of this Executive does not know what the left hand is doing?", "EditedTextHTML": "If the Scottish Executive is committed to being tough on crime and tough on the causes of crime—to use a particularly discredited soundbite—can the Deputy First Minister explain why it is robbing Peter, in the form of the Scottish Prison Service, to pay Paul, in the form of the drugs enforcement agency? Does that not show that, far from the joined-up government—a favourite Liberal Democrat soundbite, as I recall—that we were promised, the right hand of this Executive does not know what the left hand is doing?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C710788", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27014, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 612.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27015, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 613.0, "QuestionHeading": "Law and Order", "QuestionHeadingID": 27017, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 635.0, "DisplayOrder": 635.0, "ID": 27017, "ParentID": 27015 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 648.0, "ContributionID": 710788, "EditedText": "Those are the facts.", "EditedTextHTML": "Those are the facts.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C710789", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27014, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 612.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27015, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 613.0, "QuestionHeading": "Law and Order", "QuestionHeadingID": 27017, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 635.0, "DisplayOrder": 635.0, "ID": 27017, "ParentID": 27015 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 650.0, "ContributionID": 710789, "EditedText": "The fact is that more money, an increase of 3.8 per cent, will be spent next year on the police in grant-aided expenditure. I have also announced £4.7 million in additional funding for the police to cover their millennium expenses. My colleague Angus MacKay has already announced the drugs enforcement agency, which will lead to 200 extra policemen—100 at national level and 100 at local level. When Mr McLetchie describes some of the alternatives to custody as soft options, he shows that he has been reading too many of Mr Phil Gallie's comments, instead of addressing himself to the fact that non-custodial sentences are usually very tough options. They are also far more effective at promoting rehabilitation, which reduces crime numbers in years to come.", "EditedTextHTML": "The fact is that more money, an increase of 3.8 per cent, will be spent next year on the police in grant-aided expenditure. I have also announced £4.7 million in additional funding for the police to cover their millennium expenses. My colleague Angus MacKay has already announced the drugs enforcement agency, which will lead to 200 extra policemen—100 at national level and 100 at local level. When Mr McLetchie describes some of the alternatives to custody as soft options, he shows that he has been reading too many of Mr Phil Gallie's comments, instead of addressing himself to the fact that non-custodial sentences are usually very tough options. They are also far more effective at promoting rehabilitation, which reduces crime numbers in years to come.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1973E119P326C710799", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27014, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 612.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27015, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 613.0, "QuestionHeading": "Joint Working", "QuestionHeadingID": 27018, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 664.0, "DisplayOrder": 664.0, "ID": 27018, "ParentID": 27015 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gorrie, Donald", "ID": 1973, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Donald Gorrie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Donald Gorrie (Central Scotland) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 671.0, "ContributionID": 710799, "EditedText": "Will the minister provide money to help with the important things that Johann Lamont highlighted? Money should be provided to voluntary organisations and local authorities for the promotion of youth work, sport and other activities that improve health and the quality of life in the community and which will, in the long term, reduce health expenditure.", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister provide money to help with the important things that Johann Lamont highlighted? Money should be provided to voluntary organisations and local authorities for the promotion of youth work, sport and other activities that improve health and the quality of life in the community and which will, in the long term, reduce health expenditure.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2123E103P242C710801", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27014, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 612.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27015, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 613.0, "QuestionHeading": "Joint Working", "QuestionHeadingID": 27018, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 664.0, "DisplayOrder": 664.0, "ID": 27018, "ParentID": 27015 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Chisholm, Malcolm", "ID": 2123, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh North and Leith" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Malcolm Chisholm", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 675.0, "ContributionID": 710801, "EditedText": "I welcome the minister's announcement last week of the £2 million that Scottish Homes is to spend on women's refuges. As the minister responsible for that area of policy, will she ensure that Scottish Homes, health boards and local authorities work together on the strategy on violence against women and make that strategy a priority?", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the minister's announcement last week of the £2 million that

Scottish Homes is to spend on women's refuges. As the minister responsible for that area of policy, will she ensure that Scottish Homes, health boards and local authorities work together on the strategy on violence against women and make that strategy a priority?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710807", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27014, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 612.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27015, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 613.0, "QuestionHeading": "Joint Working", "QuestionHeadingID": 27018, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 664.0, "DisplayOrder": 664.0, "ID": 27018, "ParentID": 27015 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 687.0, "ContributionID": 710807, "EditedText": "That concludes question time. I apologise to those members who are still waiting to ask questions. The next item of business is a ministerial statement—", "EditedTextHTML": "That concludes question time. I apologise to those members who are still waiting to ask questions.

The next item of business is a ministerial statement—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C710808", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27014, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 612.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27015, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 613.0, "QuestionHeading": "Joint Working", "QuestionHeadingID": 27018, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 664.0, "DisplayOrder": 664.0, "ID": 27018, "ParentID": 27015 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan (Glasgow) (SSP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 689.0, "ContributionID": 710808, "EditedText": "On a point of order. In the light of the statement that is about to be given by the Minister for Transport and the Environment, would you rule that each of the departments in the Scottish Executive should be prepared to issue such statements to all the political parties represented in the Parliament? Since early yesterday, I have tried to get a copy of the statement. I was told that I would get it two hours before the debate; I never got it. I went to the chamber desk at the back of the hall before coming in, to be told that they were not available and that they had been given out only to the transport spokespersons of each of the parties.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. In the light of the statement that is about to be given by the Minister for Transport and the Environment, would you rule that each of the departments in the Scottish Executive should be prepared to issue such statements to all the political parties represented in the Parliament?

Since early yesterday, I have tried to get a copy of the statement. I was told that I would get it two hours before the debate; I never got it. I went to the chamber desk at the back of the hall before coming in, to be told that they were not available and that they had been given out only to the transport spokespersons of each of the parties.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C710810", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27014, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 612.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27015, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 613.0, "QuestionHeading": "Joint Working", "QuestionHeadingID": 27018, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 664.0, "DisplayOrder": 664.0, "ID": 27018, "ParentID": 27015 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell (South of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 693.0, "ContributionID": 710810, "EditedText": "On a point of order. When the Minister for Communities wound up yesterday afternoon's debate, she made the major announcement of the debate essentially in the last two minutes of her speech. That was contrary to procedure and to the way in which debates should be conducted. Would you rule that that is unacceptable and should not happen again?", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. When the Minister for Communities wound up yesterday afternoon's debate, she made the major announcement of the debate essentially in the last two minutes of her speech. That was contrary to procedure and to the way in which debates should be conducted. Would you rule that that is unacceptable and should not happen again?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C710811", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27014, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 612.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27015, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 613.0, "QuestionHeading": "Joint Working", "QuestionHeadingID": 27018, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 664.0, "DisplayOrder": 664.0, "ID": 27018, "ParentID": 27015 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil (Central Scotland) (SNP) rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 695.0, "ContributionID": 710811, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710812", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27014, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 612.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27015, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 613.0, "QuestionHeading": "Joint Working", "QuestionHeadingID": 27018, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 664.0, "DisplayOrder": 664.0, "ID": 27018, "ParentID": 27015 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 697.0, "ContributionID": 710812, "EditedText": "Is it the same point?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is it the same point?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2112E192P495C710828", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacAskill, Kenny", "ID": 2112, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenny MacAskill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr MacAskill: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 731.0, "ContributionID": 710828, "EditedText": "New and existing.", "EditedTextHTML": "New and existing.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5139281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1751E163P286C710834", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Craigie, Cathie", "ID": 1751, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Cumbernauld and Kilsyth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Cathie Craigie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Cathie Craigie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 743.0, "ContributionID": 710834, "EditedText": "The minister will be aware that congestion on the A80 trunk road causes difficulties for my constituents in Cumbernauld and Kilsyth. Although I welcome the strategic roads review and the Executive's intention to implement an integrated transport system, I am concerned about the people in the Cumbernauld area. Will the minister agree to meet me urgently to discuss issues that affect my constituency?", "EditedTextHTML": "The minister will be aware that congestion on the A80 trunk road causes difficulties for my constituents in Cumbernauld and Kilsyth. Although I welcome the strategic roads review and the Executive's intention to implement an integrated transport system, I am concerned about the people in the Cumbernauld area. Will the minister agree to meet me urgently to discuss issues that affect my constituency?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5295547+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1973E119P326C710836", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gorrie, Donald", "ID": 1973, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Donald Gorrie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Donald Gorrie (Central Scotland) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 747.0, "ContributionID": 710836, "EditedText": "I am still not clear where the statement says that projects should be promoted by councils. In any case, what does that mean and is there any money to finance them?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am still not clear where the statement says that projects should be promoted by councils. In any case, what does that mean and is there any money to finance them?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5295547+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710843", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 761.0, "ContributionID": 710843, "EditedText": "Order. That is certainly not a question of clarification.", "EditedTextHTML": "Order. That is certainly not a question of clarification.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5295547+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C710844", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 763.0, "ContributionID": 710844, "EditedText": "It was a question of clarification.", "EditedTextHTML": "It was a question of clarification.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5295547+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710845", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 765.0, "ContributionID": 710845, "EditedText": "I could not hear the end of your sentence, but the beginning was certainly not clarification. What was the question?", "EditedTextHTML": "I could not hear the end of your sentence, but the beginning was certainly not clarification. What was the question?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5295547+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C710846", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 767.0, "ContributionID": 710846, "EditedText": "The question was: can the minister give an estimate of the completion date for the road?", "EditedTextHTML": "The question was: can the minister give an estimate of the completion date for the road?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5295547+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710847", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 769.0, "ContributionID": 710847, "EditedText": "Why did you not just ask that right away?", "EditedTextHTML": "Why did you not just ask that right away?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5295547+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1820E139P227C710850", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Curran, Margaret", "ID": 1820, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Baillieston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Curran", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Curran: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 775.0, "ContributionID": 710850, "EditedText": "That is not fair.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is not fair.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5295547+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710854", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 783.0, "ContributionID": 710854, "EditedText": "Anyway, let us proceed. I call Mr John Swinney.", "EditedTextHTML": "Anyway, let us proceed. I call Mr John Swinney.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5295547+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C710873", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 821.0, "ContributionID": 710873, "EditedText": "With the greatest respect, I asked whether the minister would insist that all the details of the report were published.", "EditedTextHTML": "With the greatest respect, I asked whether the minister would insist that all the details of the report were published.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710874", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 823.0, "ContributionID": 710874, "EditedText": "I am sorry, but I cannot allow another supplementary.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry, but I cannot allow another supplementary.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1821E295P538C710879", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Mrs Margaret", "ID": 1821, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Moray" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Margaret Ewing (Moray) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 833.0, "ContributionID": 710879, "EditedText": "I welcome the announcement on the Fochabers and Mosstodloch bypass. Exactly how much money is being allocated to the project and when will the orders be laid to ensure progress on the bypass, which has been delayed for far too long?", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the announcement on the Fochabers and

Mosstodloch bypass. Exactly how much money is being allocated to the project and when will the orders be laid to ensure progress on the bypass, which has been delayed for far too long?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2068E171P304C710881", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stone, Jamie", "ID": 2068, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie Stone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 837.0, "ContributionID": 710881, "EditedText": "Clearly, I am disappointed about the announcement on the A9 from Helmsdale to Ord of Caithness. Will the minister give me some comfort by saying that the criteria used, based on the number of the vehicles using the road, will be reviewed to allow the road to be improved?", "EditedTextHTML": "Clearly, I am disappointed about the announcement on the A9 from Helmsdale to Ord of Caithness. Will the minister give me some comfort by saying that the criteria used, based on the number of the vehicles using the road, will be reviewed to allow the road to be improved?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1990E181P340C710885", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robson, Euan", "ID": 1990, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Roxburgh and Berwickshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Euan Robson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Euan Robson (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 845.0, "ContributionID": 710885, "EditedText": "Will the minister consider at least planning ahead purchases of land to allow the dualling scheme for the A68 Dalkeith northern bypass?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister consider at least planning ahead purchases of land to allow the dualling scheme for the A68 Dalkeith northern bypass?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2188E70P92C710889", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harper, Robin", "ID": 2188, "PartyName": "Scottish Green Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Green", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robin Harper", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robin Harper (Lothians) (Green): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 853.0, "ContributionID": 710889, "EditedText": "Can the minister briefly explain the absence of any reference in the plan to road tolling, which was previously forecast?", "EditedTextHTML": "Can the minister briefly explain the absence of any reference in the plan to road tolling, which was previously forecast?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2123E103P242C710901", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Chisholm, Malcolm", "ID": 2123, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh North and Leith" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Malcolm Chisholm", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 878.0, "ContributionID": 710901, "EditedText": "Is the SNP prepared to make any choices whatever about the Parliament's budget or its own roads budget? Does Mr MacAskill support every road in the review? If so, where on earth will he find the £900 million to pay for them?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is the SNP prepared to make any choices whatever about the Parliament's budget or its own roads budget? Does Mr MacAskill support every road in the review? If so, where on earth will he find the £900 million to pay for them?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2112E192P495C710902", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacAskill, Kenny", "ID": 2112, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenny MacAskill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr MacAskill: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 880.0, "ContributionID": 710902, "EditedText": "Malcolm should sit down and listen—I will get to that in a minute. The failure to deal with all the roads over a defined time scale undermines the strategy and destroys the integration of our road network. On the M74, the emphasis has been on the cost of building, but I want to consider the cost of not building it. The M74 is vital to the west central economy and, arguably, to the whole of the Scottish economy. Six thousand jobs are jeopardised and, unless the matter is addressed, the Executive will be writing the P45s. The calls to build the M74 north extension come from a wide and disparate section of the business and civic community. The people making those calls do so from a desire not to pave the west of Scotland in concrete, but to build an industrial community capable of providing jobs and income into the 21st century. The minister will have to answer the question of how to square the circle and pay for the M74 and the other requirements. The SNP will not become involved—I am about to address Malcolm Chisholm's point, so he may want to take note—in horse-trading over what should or should not be done. As far as we are concerned, all the roads are of equal priority and the debate should be about timing, not construction. Some of my colleagues will address in greater detail the finances available to carry out this urgent task. Let me make it quite clear: the SNP's priority is to build our nation and its infrastructure, not to promulgate a policy of tax cuts to satisfy middle England. The Executive is keen to trumpet the fact that Scotland's economy is growing. No one here today would not say that that growth needs all the nourishment and assistance that it can get. Why, then, has there been a massive cut in the proportion of the nation's wealth that the Executive is prepared to invest in transport?", "EditedTextHTML": "Malcolm should sit down and listen—I will get to that in a minute.

The failure to deal with all the roads over a defined time scale undermines the strategy and destroys the integration of our road network. On the M74, the emphasis has been on the cost of building, but I want to consider the cost of not building it. The M74 is vital to the west central economy and, arguably, to the whole of the Scottish economy. Six thousand jobs are jeopardised and, unless the matter is addressed, the Executive will be writing the P45s. The calls to build the M74 north extension come from a wide and disparate section of the business and civic community. The people making those calls do so from a desire not to pave the west of Scotland in concrete, but to build an industrial community capable of providing jobs and income into the 21st century.

The minister will have to answer the question of how to square the circle and pay for the M74 and the other requirements. The SNP will not become involved—I am about to address Malcolm Chisholm's point, so he may want to take note—in horse-trading over what should or should not be done. As far as we are concerned, all the roads are of equal priority and the debate should be about timing, not construction. Some of my colleagues will address in greater detail the finances available to carry out this urgent task. Let me make it quite clear: the SNP's priority is to build our nation and its infrastructure, not to promulgate a policy of tax cuts to satisfy middle England.

The Executive is keen to trumpet the fact that Scotland's economy is growing. No one here today would not say that that growth needs all the nourishment and assistance that it can get. Why, then, has there been a massive cut in the proportion of the nation's wealth that the Executive is prepared to invest in transport?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C710909", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Patricia Ferguson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 894.0, "ContributionID": 710909, "EditedText": "I call Murray Tosh to open the debate for the Conservative party. You have 10 minutes, Mr Tosh.", "EditedTextHTML": "I call Murray Tosh to open the debate for the Conservative party. You have 10 minutes, Mr Tosh.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C710910", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Murray Tosh (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 897.0, "ContributionID": 710910, "EditedText": "It was a pity that in the transport minister's attempt at statesmanship, she felt obliged to have ritual backwards kicks at the previous Conservative Government. They fell wide of the target. We heard that that Government had ignored its responsibilities and that it had built up expectations that were not fulfilled. I will say this for the previous Government—at least it had a document that defined the routes in the trunk road network in terms of trans-European networks. The document defined a forward programme, and the previous Conservative Government implemented a substantial proportion of that programme and left some schemes to run almost until the election got in its way. The present Government has laboured for more than two years and has not come up with a convincing alternative or followed through on that programme. I am afraid that it has produced something of a mouse today. Far from injecting further resources and breathing life into Scotland's transport system, this Administration—and its immediate predecessor in London—has presided over a massive reduction in resources. It has presided over the loss of £140 million a year in local authority revenue expenditure on roads. Professor David Begg has said that there has been a reduction of about £80 million in capital expenditure by local authorities. In its last two years, the previous Conservative Government spent more than £280 million—Ms Boyack is here today to boast that in her next two years she will have £66 million and that that is somehow much better. I fail to see the logic in that.", "EditedTextHTML": "It was a pity that in the transport minister's attempt at statesmanship, she felt obliged to have ritual backwards kicks at the previous Conservative Government. They fell wide of the target. We heard that that Government had ignored its responsibilities and that it had built up expectations that were not fulfilled.

I will say this for the previous Government—at least it had a document that defined the routes in the trunk road network in terms of trans-European networks. The document defined a forward programme, and the previous Conservative Government implemented a substantial proportion of that programme and left some schemes to run almost until the election got in its way.

The present Government has laboured for more than two years and has not come up with a convincing alternative or followed through on that programme. I am afraid that it has produced something of a mouse today.

Far from injecting further resources and breathing life into Scotland's transport system, this Administration—and its immediate predecessor in London—has presided over a massive reduction in resources. It has presided over the loss of £140 million a year in local authority revenue expenditure on roads. Professor David Begg has said that there has been a reduction of about £80 million in capital expenditure by local authorities.

In its last two years, the previous Conservative Government spent more than £280 million—Ms Boyack is here today to boast that in her next two years she will have £66 million and that that is somehow much better. I fail to see the logic in that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C710914", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 905.0, "ContributionID": 710914, "EditedText": "The basis of a strategic approach is that it is planned as a whole—there is an overriding goal and a process that is defined and carried out, subject to the proper democratic, legal and planning procedures. It is not to say to 32 local authorities, \"You might have a part to play and, if you are willing to play it, this might happen—some time, somehow—through funding mechanisms that have yet to be defined.\" That is not strategic. That is the abdication of all responsibility. That is the collapse of a programme. Let us consider the case of the A8000. What if the City of Edinburgh Council and Fife Council do not agree? What if they cannot agree whether or how it should happen, or who should fund it? Will the Scottish Executive be able to find a way through that, or will the project founder because no one can agree? There is to be a study on the Forth road bridge crossings—fine. What happens next, and when? Who can tell us? Who will tell us? Who will accept responsibility? Surely that is the minister's responsibility, not the responsibility of the councils, however important and valuable their role will be. For areas that have lost out today, there must be some regret. Jamie Stone referred to that. In areas that have benefited, local delight will follow today's announcement. I notice that Allan Wilson is already away to celebrate. What about the three deferred schemes? Euan Robson is a man who is devastated by the fact that the Executive that he supports has given him nothing. It has taken away the Dalkeith bypass, which is the access route to the Borders, and it will not say that it will give that region the Borders railway. The Borders have been left with nothing from the review.", "EditedTextHTML": "The basis of a strategic approach is that it is planned as a whole—there is an overriding goal and a process that is defined and carried out, subject to the proper democratic, legal and planning procedures. It is not to say to 32 local authorities, \"You might have a part to play and, if you are willing to play it, this might happen—some time, somehow—through funding mechanisms that have yet to be defined.\" That is not strategic. That is the abdication of all responsibility. That is the collapse of a programme.

Let us consider the case of the A8000. What if the City of Edinburgh Council and Fife Council do not agree? What if they cannot agree whether or how it should happen, or who should fund it? Will the Scottish Executive be able to find a way through that, or will the project founder because no one can agree? There is to be a study on the Forth road bridge crossings—fine. What happens next, and when? Who can tell us? Who will tell us? Who will accept responsibility? Surely that is the minister's responsibility, not the responsibility of the councils, however important and valuable their role will be.

For areas that have lost out today, there must be some regret. Jamie Stone referred to that. In areas that have benefited, local delight will follow today's announcement. I notice that Allan Wilson is already away to celebrate. What about the three deferred schemes? Euan Robson is a man who is devastated by the fact that the Executive that he supports has given him nothing. It has taken away the Dalkeith bypass, which is the access route to the Borders, and it will not say that it will give that region the Borders railway. The Borders have been left with nothing from the review.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1778E91P257C710916", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Eadie, Helen", "ID": 1778, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dunfermline East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Helen Eadie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Helen Eadie (Dunfermline East) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 909.0, "ContributionID": 710916, "EditedText": "Will Mr Tosh answer another question at the same time?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr Tosh answer another question at the same time?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C710924", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 925.0, "ContributionID": 710924, "EditedText": "That was not a point of order, Mrs Eadie. Carry on please, Mr Tosh.", "EditedTextHTML": "That was not a point of order, Mrs Eadie. Carry on please, Mr Tosh.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2223E203P342C710929", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scott, Tavish", "ID": 2223, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Shetland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tavish Scott", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tavish Scott: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 936.0, "ContributionID": 710929, "EditedText": "Mr Tosh may feel rather contrite about what he said about Railtrack. Given subsequent events, he may want to revisit the comments that he made at that earlier debate. The coalition's approach is clear: we seek to build an integrated transport strategy for Scotland, and strategic roads investment has a vital role to play in that. The Tories do not want that, as has been explained again today, and it appears that the nationalists do not want it either. The Scottish National party wants to complete the strategic network in full, and Mr MacAskill confirmed that in The Scotsman this morning and on \"Good Morning Scotland\". Yet what did the SNP manifesto say? It said: \"we will undertake a full review of all planned existing road development schemes to ensure that road developments are prioritised to deliver the maximum safety, social and environmental benefits.\" Quite. Absolutely. That is exactly the right approach and that is what the roads review is all about. However, the SNP's position has now changed and another chunk of the manifesto has gone up in smoke.Given that the SNP is now committed to the full strategic roads network, Mr MacAskill has committed his party to the M74 extension, too. What did the SNP's Glasgow local government manifesto say in the 1999 election? \"SNP councillors will oppose granting of planning permission for this motorway. Nationally, the SNP will oppose wasting Holyrood's too little money on what would be the most expensive motorway in Europe\". I wonder when Kenny MacAskill plans to next meet his colleagues on Glasgow City Council. How would the SNP fund the entire programme? Mr MacAskill would not say. How will the SNP pay for the extra spending? Where will it find £800 million? Will Mr MacAskill cut other programmes or raise taxes? What time scale is envisaged for that £800 million spending commitment? There were no answers to any of those questions, and I do not see why members in this chamber should not hear those answers.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Tosh may feel rather contrite about what he said about Railtrack. Given subsequent events, he may want to revisit the comments that he made at that earlier debate.

The coalition's approach is clear: we seek to build an integrated transport strategy for Scotland, and strategic roads investment has a vital role to play in that. The Tories do not want that, as has been explained again today, and it appears that the nationalists do not want it either. The Scottish National party wants to complete the strategic network in full, and Mr MacAskill confirmed that in The Scotsman this morning and on \"Good Morning Scotland\". Yet what did the SNP manifesto say? It said:

\"we will undertake a full review of all planned existing road development schemes to ensure that road developments are prioritised to deliver the maximum safety, social and environmental benefits.\"

Quite. Absolutely. That is exactly the right approach and that is what the roads review is all about. However, the SNP's position has now changed and another chunk of the manifesto has

gone up in smoke.

Given that the SNP is now committed to the full strategic roads network, Mr MacAskill has committed his party to the M74 extension, too. What did the SNP's Glasgow local government manifesto say in the 1999 election?

\"SNP councillors will oppose granting of planning permission for this motorway. Nationally, the SNP will oppose wasting Holyrood's too little money on what would be the most expensive motorway in Europe\".

I wonder when Kenny MacAskill plans to next meet his colleagues on Glasgow City Council. How would the SNP fund the entire programme? Mr MacAskill would not say. How will the SNP pay for the extra spending? Where will it find £800 million? Will Mr MacAskill cut other programmes or raise taxes? What time scale is envisaged for that £800 million spending commitment? There were no answers to any of those questions, and I do not see why members in this chamber should not hear those answers.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C710941", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 963.0, "ContributionID": 710941, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C710943", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 967.0, "ContributionID": 710943, "EditedText": "Will Des McNulty give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Des McNulty give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2152E53P75C710947", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnston, Nick", "ID": 2152, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nick Johnston", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Nick Johnston (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 976.0, "ContributionID": 710947, "EditedText": "I draw members' attention to the fact that I am a member of the Institute of the Motor Industry. This comprehensive spending review on roads takes place against the background of taxation of £2 billion per annum on Scotland's motorists. In 1997-98, spending on transport—roads and public transport—was only £244 million. That is only 14 per cent of the tax revenues. Today, we keep hearing about available funds. When I had my first member's debate on 9 September—it was on economic conditions in Clackmannanshire—I asked Henry McLeish to take steps to initiate a co-ordinated approach to the problems of Clackmannanshire and west Fife. The Scottish economy is reliant on good transport links, as it is on the fringe of the UK and the European single market. It is vital that the Scottish Executive campaigns for a fairer deal for Scotland's transport system. I said in that debate that the Executive needed to make a concentrated effort to improve the transport infrastructure of the area, specifically to expedite the Clackmannan bridge and the completion of the upgrading of the A907. We need a new link from Rosyth to Stirling to improve east-west road links and Government support for the push to reopen the railway between Stirling and Alloa. Local businesses, councils, local enterprise companies and the trade unions are unanimous in their claim that one of the biggest drawbacks to inward investment in the western part of Fife and Clackmannanshire is communications. I pay tribute to Kenny MacAskill for making that point in his opening speech. There is only one crossing point over the River Forth between Stirling and North Queensferry—the Kincardine bridge, which was opened in 1939. That bridge has been under threat of closure for many years and it is only in the past five years that major works have been done to extend its life. I welcome the movement towards planning for the refurbishment of the existing bridge but, in the limited time that I have had to look at the document, I can find no commitment to the new river crossing. In a reply to a recent parliamentary question from me, Sarah Boyack stated that, provided that everything went to plan and there were no delays, work on a replacement for the Kincardine bridge could start in 2003. The bridge will take approximately four years to build, but it will be built only if the Executive releases the money. In the current economic climate, there is no guarantee that the Government will allocate spending on the new bridge. No business can make plans for inward investment under such conditions. The policy also puts in doubt the long-term future of Longannet power station, which depends heavily on road- delivered opencast coal. The announcement today will deliver a body blow to the hopes of this fragile area and put back the economic redevelopment of Clackmannanshire and west Fife. The recent closing of Downie's bridge on the Alloa-Stirling road shows how isolated Clackmannanshire is. Industry needs road transport to bring raw materials in and to take finished goods out. Alloa is the only town of any size in Scotland not to be served by rail transport. Unless the rail review, to be announced in the near future, addresses the problems of Clackmannanshire, how will the Executive meet the objective of moving goods from road to rail? On the A8000, action is needed now to complete this vital link. Money must be found to redesign that inadequate road, on which I travel every morning and night. On the radio this morning, the Confederation of British Industry said that the economic well-being of Scotland relied on a vibrant road network. Do not rely on the Executive. Nobody wants to see diversions from health and education, but we must invest in our transport infrastructure to allow the economy of Scotland to flourish and to grow. Taxes from the vibrant business sector pay to educate our children, to care for our elderly and to look after the health of our citizens. Taxes from the business sector will pay for the road improvements announced today. I ask Sarah Boyack to bring forward schemes, such as the new Kincardine crossing, to ensure that that area of Scotland, which I happen to represent, shares in the economic benefits of the future.", "EditedTextHTML": "I draw members' attention to the fact that I am a member of the Institute of the Motor Industry. This comprehensive spending review on roads takes place against the background of taxation of £2 billion per annum on Scotland's motorists.

In 1997-98, spending on transport—roads and public transport—was only £244 million. That is only 14 per cent of the tax revenues. Today, we keep hearing about available funds. When I had my first member's debate on 9 September—it was on economic conditions in Clackmannanshire—I asked Henry McLeish to take steps to initiate a co-ordinated approach to the problems of Clackmannanshire and west Fife.

The Scottish economy is reliant on good transport links, as it is on the fringe of the UK and the European single market. It is vital that the Scottish Executive campaigns for a fairer deal for Scotland's transport system. I said in that debate that the Executive needed to make a concentrated effort to improve the transport infrastructure of the area, specifically to expedite the Clackmannan bridge and the completion of the upgrading of the A907. We need a new link from Rosyth to Stirling to improve east-west road links and Government support for the push to reopen the railway between Stirling and Alloa.

Local businesses, councils, local enterprise companies and the trade unions are unanimous in their claim that one of the biggest drawbacks to inward investment in the western part of Fife and Clackmannanshire is communications. I pay tribute to Kenny MacAskill for making that point in his opening speech. There is only one crossing point over the River Forth between Stirling and North Queensferry—the Kincardine bridge, which was opened in 1939. That bridge has been under threat of closure for many years and it is only in the past five years that major works have been done to extend its life. I welcome the movement towards planning for the refurbishment of the existing bridge but, in the limited time that I have had to look at the document, I can find no commitment to the new river crossing.

In a reply to a recent parliamentary question from me, Sarah Boyack stated that, provided that everything went to plan and there were no delays, work on a replacement for the Kincardine bridge could start in 2003. The bridge will take approximately four years to build, but it will be built only if the Executive releases the money. In the current economic climate, there is no guarantee that the Government will allocate spending on the new bridge.

No business can make plans for inward investment under such conditions. The policy also

puts in doubt the long-term future of Longannet power station, which depends heavily on road- delivered opencast coal. The announcement today will deliver a body blow to the hopes of this fragile area and put back the economic redevelopment of Clackmannanshire and west Fife.

The recent closing of Downie's bridge on the Alloa-Stirling road shows how isolated Clackmannanshire is. Industry needs road transport to bring raw materials in and to take finished goods out. Alloa is the only town of any size in Scotland not to be served by rail transport. Unless the rail review, to be announced in the near future, addresses the problems of Clackmannanshire, how will the Executive meet the objective of moving goods from road to rail?

On the A8000, action is needed now to complete this vital link. Money must be found to redesign that inadequate road, on which I travel every morning and night.

On the radio this morning, the Confederation of British Industry said that the economic well-being of Scotland relied on a vibrant road network. Do not rely on the Executive. Nobody wants to see diversions from health and education, but we must invest in our transport infrastructure to allow the economy of Scotland to flourish and to grow.

Taxes from the vibrant business sector pay to educate our children, to care for our elderly and to look after the health of our citizens. Taxes from the business sector will pay for the road improvements announced today. I ask Sarah Boyack to bring forward schemes, such as the new Kincardine crossing, to ensure that that area of Scotland, which I happen to represent, shares in the economic benefits of the future.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2123E103P242C710952", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Chisholm, Malcolm", "ID": 2123, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh North and Leith" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Malcolm Chisholm", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Malcolm Chisholm: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 987.0, "ContributionID": 710952, "EditedText": "I have only three minutes, and half of them are up. All three of the Ewings who represent the Highlands should be pleased. Unfortunately, Mr MacAskill is never pleased unless everything is delivered immediately. What we have had today from the SNP is not serious politics. I am not particularly surprised by that—as I said in my intervention, the SNP is unwilling to make choices, either on the general budget of this Parliament or on the roads budget. The Tories are not much better. They want most of the roads, but will not tell us how they would pay for them. The problem started because of the wish list that we inherited from them. They went round every part of Scotland saying, \"The road is in the programme.\" The road was in the programme, but the money was not. That was one reason why we had to have a strategic roads review. The second reason was our new approach to transport policy, which is based on integration and which has a new emphasis on public transport. Public transport is important for everybody, but especially for the third of the Scottish population that does not have a car. The new emphasis has been demonstrated in many ways, not least by the £26 million announced last week for further public transport developments. It is in that area that the new multi-modal studies will be important. We already have a sophisticated methodology—it has been applied to this review—but it will now become even more sophisticated and will examine the comparative advantages of road and public transport developments. That is a tremendous step forward for transport policy in the United Kingdom and, indeed, throughout the world. As we know, public transport investment boosts the economy. That will be taken into account in the further studies. As my three minutes are up, I will end by saying well done to the Minister for Transport and the Environment.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have only three minutes, and half of them are up.

All three of the Ewings who represent the Highlands should be pleased. Unfortunately, Mr MacAskill is never pleased unless everything is delivered immediately. What we have had today from the SNP is not serious politics. I am not particularly surprised by that—as I said in my intervention, the SNP is unwilling to make choices, either on the general budget of this Parliament or on the roads budget.

The Tories are not much better. They want most of the roads, but will not tell us how they would pay for them. The problem started because of the wish list that we inherited from them. They went round every part of Scotland saying, \"The road is in the programme.\" The road was in the programme, but the money was not. That was one reason why we had to have a strategic roads review.

The second reason was our new approach to transport policy, which is based on integration and which has a new emphasis on public transport. Public transport is important for everybody, but especially for the third of the Scottish population that does not have a car. The new emphasis has been demonstrated in many ways, not least by the £26 million announced last week for further public transport developments. It is in that area that the new multi-modal studies will be important. We already have a sophisticated methodology—it has been applied to this review—but it will now become even more sophisticated and will examine the comparative advantages of road and public transport developments. That is a tremendous step forward for transport policy in the United Kingdom and, indeed, throughout the world. As we know, public transport investment boosts the economy. That will be taken into account in the further studies.

As my three minutes are up, I will end by saying well done to the Minister for Transport and the Environment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1850E185P354C710954", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Radcliffe, Nora", "ID": 1850, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Gordon" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nora Radcliffe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nora Radcliffe (Gordon) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 992.0, "ContributionID": 710954, "EditedText": "I will be as quick as I can. I want to make two general points. First, the strength of this Parliament is that we can consider matters in an objective, strategic, pan- Scotland way. Secondly, we have a finite budget, and, as any housewife will tell you, \"You cannot spend money that you haven't got.\" I would like to endorse what Malcolm said and congratulate the minister on what was, given the two factors that I have mentioned, an excellent piece of work. She has tackled this issue extremely well, and I am delighted that transport and the environment are being linked in a positive way. I want to comment briefly on two issues that relate to my area. I am disappointed that Keith is not included, but not altogether surprised. Anyone who knows the main A96 through Fochabers will understand why that is in the programme. I will be pursuing measures to make life easier for the citizens of Keith, whose community is bisected by a major trunk road. I am glad that it has been recognised that the A90 Tipperty to Balmedie road must be given priority. It is a dangerous accident black spot, with people living either side of a single-carriageway section of a dual carriageway of considerable strategic importance, in that it is the main route in and out of Banff and Buchan.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will be as quick as I can. I want to make two general points. First, the strength of this Parliament is that we can consider matters in an objective, strategic, pan- Scotland way. Secondly, we have a finite budget, and, as any housewife will tell you, \"You cannot spend money that you haven't got.\" I would like to endorse what Malcolm said and congratulate the minister on what was, given the two factors that I have mentioned, an excellent piece of work. She has tackled this issue extremely well, and I am delighted that transport and the environment are being linked in a positive way.

I want to comment briefly on two issues that relate to my area. I am disappointed that Keith is not included, but not altogether surprised. Anyone who knows the main A96 through Fochabers will understand why that is in the programme. I will be pursuing measures to make life easier for the citizens of Keith, whose community is bisected by a major trunk road.

I am glad that it has been recognised that the A90 Tipperty to Balmedie road must be given priority. It is a dangerous accident black spot, with people living either side of a single-carriageway section of a dual carriageway of considerable strategic importance, in that it is the main route in and out of Banff and Buchan.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2099E29P51C710962", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Young, John", "ID": 2099, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Young", "SpeakerDisplayName": "John Young: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1009.0, "ContributionID": 710962, "EditedText": "The minister has a difficult task and I welcome one or two things that she has said today. I will quickly quote some words from members of the business community, who hit the nail on the head. Lex Gold, the director of the Scottish Chambers of Commerce, suggested that the Executive's policy was: \"A narrow approach at naked revenue raising in a haphazard, bottom up manner with no strategic focus; no national guidance, and no aim of enhancing competitiveness\" Ian Duff, who leads on transport issues for the influential Scottish Council Development and Industry, believes that \"confused thinking is holding up essential work on key transport arteries\".", "EditedTextHTML": "The minister has a difficult task and I welcome one or two things that she has said today.

I will quickly quote some words from members of the business community, who hit the nail on the head.

Lex Gold, the director of the Scottish Chambers of Commerce, suggested that the Executive's policy was:

\"A narrow approach at naked revenue raising in a haphazard, bottom up manner with no strategic focus; no national guidance, and no aim of enhancing competitiveness\"

Ian Duff, who leads on transport issues for the influential Scottish Council Development and Industry, believes that

\"confused thinking is holding up essential work on key transport arteries\".

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C710963", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1011.0, "ContributionID": 710963, "EditedText": "Not too many more quotations, please.", "EditedTextHTML": "Not too many more quotations, please.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2099E29P51C710964", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Young, John", "ID": 2099, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Young", "SpeakerDisplayName": "John Young: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1013.0, "ContributionID": 710964, "EditedText": "I am just finishing.Vernon Murphy, the former head of Scottish Airports, who now sits on the British Airports Authority's main board, is quoted as saying that the rulers of the Scottish Parliament \"keep saying it's coming, its coming. But nothing happens\".Finally, I attended a meeting of the Royal Scottish Automobile Club motor policy committee, at its invitation. Its members were concerned about certain aspects of the 40-page consultation document, particularly the distinct feeling that no firm assurances had been given on 100 per cent ring-fencing—that moneys would be used for road and transport improvements. That was not acceptable to them.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am just finishing.

Vernon Murphy, the former head of Scottish Airports, who now sits on the British Airports Authority's main board, is quoted as saying that the rulers of the Scottish Parliament

\"keep saying it's coming, its coming. But nothing happens\".

Finally, I attended a meeting of the Royal Scottish Automobile Club motor policy committee, at its invitation. Its members were concerned about certain aspects of the 40-page consultation document, particularly the distinct feeling that no firm assurances had been given on 100 per cent ring-fencing—that moneys would be used for road and transport improvements. That was not acceptable to them.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1814E135P516C710966", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Fabiani, Linda", "ID": 1814, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Linda Fabiani", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Linda Fabiani (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1018.0, "ContributionID": 710966, "EditedText": "Of all the debates in the chamber to date, few can have been as highly anticipated. While we thought that we were gathering today to discuss the strategic roads review, as evidenced by today's contributors to the debate, the events of the past few days have clearly illustrated the wider problem of an absence of any real transport strategy for Scotland within which this review should have taken place. Selective further research may be welcome. I will return to that point. I will not dwell on the plans outlined in the Minister for Transport and the Environment's statement. Kenny MacAskill and other colleagues have demonstrated the inadequacy of the programme to deal with Scotland's current and future transport needs. On behalf of the Executive, the minister has put a brave public face on a poor announcement. Clearly, Gordon Brown's determination to prioritise Labour's ever-growing war chest has condemned Scottish drivers to paying the highest fuel prices in Europe, while driving on a crumbling road network. The Government's own figures show that almost a third of the current trunk road network has a residual life of less than 10 years. Like our public transport system, the country's roads require investment. Indeed, an effective public transport system requires effective roads. The background to today's announcement is the white paper \"Travel Choices for Scotland.\" That paper promised an integrated transport policy to help make a more inclusive society, and a policy that is appropriate to support Scotland's economy. Recent weeks have demonstrated that the Executive does not have enough understanding of Scotland's transport needs to develop such a policy. In 1997, the Scottish Office central research unitpublished a review of Scottish travel data sources. I would like to place the conclusion on record: \"Transport policy in Scotland clearly requires a resource, which has the potential for sub-regional analysis in order to address differences between the more densely populated areas of the central belt and the more sparsely populated rural areas . . . At present, policy and surveys conducted in Scotland are not addressing the context within which the travel decision occurs. This is a serious flaw, given the desirability in current policy terms to understand the relationship between social, fiscal and transport aspects of the behaviour of individuals and households.\" The white paper was premature and the Executive was not properly informed. I suspect that the minister, due to her respected experience in the field, has always been aware of that deficit of current, relevant information. I hope that she will take steps to properly inform the Executive and the Parliament by appropriate further research carried out timeously. I have with me a sheaf of parliamentary questions that have not yet been answered— questions lodged up to five weeks ago, which request basic information to enable my party's own response to a transport bill. That basic information is noted in the aforementioned Scottish Office central research unit report as being required. It seems that we have not moved on since then. The information that we do have is revealing. The more cynical members among us may see the Executive's policy direction as merely following the latest Westminster diktat. I hope that the minister has won her battle and that the announced further research will be appropriate. We can then return to discussing Scottish answers to Scottish questions. While London may be in gridlock, Scotland clearly is not. According to the Executive's own figures, between 1985 and 1997, the average number of commuting and business trips made by Scots dropped from 207 to 203. The length of time taken for Scots to commute to their main place of work barely altered, increasing from 22 minutes to 23 minutes. The Scottish Executive, with some assistance from other parties, has tried to present the transport debate as a simple choice between its politically correct anti-car policies and the views of the rest of us, who, it alleges, are hell-bent on wrecking the environment. I reject such a simplistic approach and will continue to press the minister to address the wider impact of her policies. For example, we need to understand why progress in reducing injuries and fatalities from road traffic accidents is now being reversed. The roads programme should be only part of a wider transport policy. I urge the minister to accept that a holistic approach is best for what we are all trying to achieve. Sensible road infrastructure, through improvement or new commitment, has a place in the overall objective of ensuring effective public transport and addressing environmental and safety issues, both nationally and locally.", "EditedTextHTML": "Of all the debates in the chamber to date, few can have been as highly anticipated. While we thought that we were gathering today to discuss the strategic roads review, as evidenced by today's contributors to the debate, the events of the past few days have clearly illustrated the wider problem of an absence of any real transport strategy for Scotland within which this review should have taken place. Selective further research may be welcome. I will return to that point.

I will not dwell on the plans outlined in the Minister for Transport and the Environment's statement. Kenny MacAskill and other colleagues have demonstrated the inadequacy of the programme to deal with Scotland's current and future transport needs. On behalf of the Executive, the minister has put a brave public face on a poor announcement. Clearly, Gordon Brown's determination to prioritise Labour's ever-growing war chest has condemned Scottish drivers to paying the highest fuel prices in Europe, while driving on a crumbling road network.

The Government's own figures show that almost a third of the current trunk road network has a residual life of less than 10 years. Like our public transport system, the country's roads require investment. Indeed, an effective public transport system requires effective roads.

The background to today's announcement is the white paper \"Travel Choices for Scotland.\" That paper promised an integrated transport policy to help make a more inclusive society, and a policy that is appropriate to support Scotland's economy. Recent weeks have demonstrated that the Executive does not have enough understanding of Scotland's transport needs to develop such a policy.

In 1997, the Scottish Office central research unit

published a review of Scottish travel data sources. I would like to place the conclusion on record:

\"Transport policy in Scotland clearly requires a resource, which has the potential for sub-regional analysis in order to address differences between the more densely populated areas of the central belt and the more sparsely populated rural areas . . . At present, policy and surveys conducted in Scotland are not addressing the context within which the travel decision occurs. This is a serious flaw, given the desirability in current policy terms to understand the relationship between social, fiscal and transport aspects of the behaviour of individuals and households.\"

The white paper was premature and the Executive was not properly informed. I suspect that the minister, due to her respected experience in the field, has always been aware of that deficit of current, relevant information. I hope that she will take steps to properly inform the Executive and the Parliament by appropriate further research carried out timeously.

I have with me a sheaf of parliamentary questions that have not yet been answered— questions lodged up to five weeks ago, which request basic information to enable my party's own response to a transport bill. That basic information is noted in the aforementioned Scottish Office central research unit report as being required. It seems that we have not moved on since then. The information that we do have is revealing. The more cynical members among us may see the Executive's policy direction as merely following the latest Westminster diktat.

I hope that the minister has won her battle and that the announced further research will be appropriate. We can then return to discussing Scottish answers to Scottish questions. While London may be in gridlock, Scotland clearly is not. According to the Executive's own figures, between 1985 and 1997, the average number of commuting and business trips made by Scots dropped from 207 to 203. The length of time taken for Scots to commute to their main place of work barely altered, increasing from 22 minutes to 23 minutes.

The Scottish Executive, with some assistance from other parties, has tried to present the transport debate as a simple choice between its politically correct anti-car policies and the views of the rest of us, who, it alleges, are hell-bent on wrecking the environment. I reject such a simplistic approach and will continue to press the minister to address the wider impact of her policies. For example, we need to understand why progress in reducing injuries and fatalities from road traffic accidents is now being reversed.

The roads programme should be only part of a wider transport policy. I urge the minister to accept that a holistic approach is best for what we are all trying to achieve. Sensible road infrastructure, through improvement or new commitment, has a place in the overall objective of ensuring effective public transport and addressing environmental and safety issues, both nationally and locally.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C710974", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1035.0, "ContributionID": 710974, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C710976", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1039.0, "ContributionID": 710976, "EditedText": "When might the M80, M8 and M74 start and be completed? Those are the critical questions that businesses in Scotland want answered.", "EditedTextHTML": "When might the M80, M8 and M74 start and be completed? Those are the critical questions that businesses in Scotland want answered.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C710988", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1063.0, "ContributionID": 710988, "EditedText": "On a point of order. To record the people who are not being called in these debates, could their names appear in the business bulletin? In that way, if any pattern emerges of people not being called, it will be visible.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. To record the people who are not being called in these debates, could their names appear in the business bulletin? In that way, if any pattern emerges of people not being called, it will be visible.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "C710992", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Amnesic Shellfish Poisoning", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27021, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1070.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1070.0, "ID": 27021, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1071.0, "ContributionID": 710992, "EditedText": "Motion moved,", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion moved,

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "C710993", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Amnesic Shellfish Poisoning", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27021, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1070.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1070.0, "ID": 27021, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1072.0, "ContributionID": 710993, "EditedText": "That the Parliament agrees that the Food Protection (Emergency Prohibitions) (Amnesic Shellfish Poisoning) (East Coast) (Scotland) Order 1999 (SSI 1999/110) be approved.—Mr McCabe.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament agrees that the Food Protection (Emergency Prohibitions) (Amnesic Shellfish Poisoning) (East Coast) (Scotland) Order 1999 (SSI 1999/110) be approved.—[Mr McCabe.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710996", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27022, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1077.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1077.0, "ID": 27022, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1079.0, "ContributionID": 710996, "EditedText": "The first question in decision time is, that amendment S1M-242.1, in the name of Alex Fergusson, which seeks to amend motion S1M-242, in the name of Alex Salmond, on agriculture and rural affairs, be agreed to. Are we agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "The first question in decision time is, that amendment S1M-242.1, in the name of Alex Fergusson, which seeks to amend motion S1M-242, in the name of Alex Salmond, on agriculture and rural affairs, be agreed to. Are we agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "C710997", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27022, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1077.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1077.0, "ID": 27022, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1081.0, "ContributionID": 710997, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711018", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27022, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1077.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1077.0, "ID": 27022, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1114.0, "ContributionID": 711018, "EditedText": "That the Parliament agrees the following designations of committees: the Justice and Home Affairs Committee to be the lead committee in the consideration of the Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc. (Scotland) Bill; the Justice and Home Affairs Committee to be the lead committee in the consideration of the Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill and that the Bill should also be considered by the Health and Community Care Committee; the Social and Inclusion, Housing and Voluntary Sector Committee and the Local Government Committee to report to the Justice and Home Affairs Committee on the Abolition of Poindings and Warrant Sales Bill; and the Rural Affairs Committee to be the lead committee in the consideration of the Plant Health (Scotland) Amendment (No. 2) Order 1999 (SSI 1999/129) and that the Order should also be considered by the European Committee.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament agrees the following designations of committees: the Justice and Home Affairs Committee to be the lead committee in the consideration of the Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc. (Scotland) Bill; the Justice and Home Affairs Committee to be the lead committee in the consideration of the Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill and that the Bill should also be considered by the Health and Community Care Committee; the Social and Inclusion, Housing and Voluntary Sector Committee and the Local Government Committee to report to the Justice and Home Affairs Committee on the Abolition of Poindings and Warrant Sales Bill; and the Rural Affairs Committee to be the lead committee in the consideration of the Plant Health (Scotland) Amendment (No. 2) Order 1999 (SSI 1999/129) and that the Order should also be considered by the European Committee.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711000", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27022, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1077.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1077.0, "ID": 27022, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1086.0, "ContributionID": 711000, "EditedText": "The result of the division is as follows: For 17, Against 105, Abstentions 0.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result of the division is as follows: For 17, Against 105, Abstentions 0.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711002", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27022, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1077.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1077.0, "ID": 27022, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1089.0, "ContributionID": 711002, "EditedText": "The second question is, that amendment S1M-242.2, in the name of Ross Finnie, also seeking to amend motion S1M-242, be agreed to. Are we agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "The second question is, that amendment S1M-242.2, in the name of Ross Finnie, also seeking to amend motion S1M-242, be agreed to. Are we agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711003", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27022, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1077.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1077.0, "ID": 27022, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1091.0, "ContributionID": 711003, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C711006", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27022, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1077.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1077.0, "ID": 27022, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1096.0, "ContributionID": 711006, "EditedText": "The result of the division is as follows: For 67, Against 54, Abstentions 0.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result of the division is as follows: For 67, Against 54, Abstentions 0.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711014", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27022, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1077.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1077.0, "ID": 27022, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1109.0, "ContributionID": 711014, "EditedText": "Resolved,", "EditedTextHTML": "Resolved,

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711021", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27022, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1077.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1077.0, "ID": 27022, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1118.0, "ContributionID": 711021, "EditedText": "That the Parliament agrees that the Food Protection (Emergency Prohibitions) (Amnesic Shellfish Poisoning) (East Coast) (Scotland) Order 1999 (SSI 1999/110) be approved.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament agrees that the Food Protection (Emergency Prohibitions) (Amnesic Shellfish Poisoning) (East Coast) (Scotland) Order 1999 (SSI 1999/110) be approved.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711023", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliamentary Elections", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27023, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1119.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1119.0, "ID": 27023, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1122.0, "ContributionID": 711023, "EditedText": "Motion debated,", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion debated,

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5451728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2056E57P84C711025", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliamentary Elections", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27023, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1119.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1119.0, "ID": 27023, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James", "ID": 2056, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "James Douglas-Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Lord James Douglas-Hamilton (Lothians) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1125.0, "ContributionID": 711025, "EditedText": "In addressing the issue of 2,097 votes in Edinburgh West that were not properly counted in the overall result in the Scottish parliamentary elections, I will express the case as concisely as I can to allow as many members as possible to speak. It is a matter of great regret that those 2,097 votes were not counted in the overall result. I will address the background to the debate and the position of the Secretary of State for Scotland, who is responsible. I will then suggest three recommendations. Regarding the count for the list in the Lothians parliamentary constituency, the facts are plain and unmistakable. Counting ceased at approximately 6.45 am on Friday 7 May. Before that, at approximately 5.54 am, 10 additional pairs of counting staff were asked to help. Because insufficient room was available in hall 3, the votes were taken to the pairs in an adjacent room. The votes were then counted and returned. However, a mix-up occurred between the person returning the votes and the superintendent in the hall. It appears that the superintendent made a human error in not recording 2,097 votes in the overall figure. However those votes might have been counted, it would not have affected the overall result nor come close to doing so. Interruption.", "EditedTextHTML": "In addressing the issue of 2,097 votes in Edinburgh West that were not properly counted in the overall result in the Scottish parliamentary elections, I will express the case as concisely as I can to allow as many members as possible to speak.

It is a matter of great regret that those 2,097 votes were not counted in the overall result. I will address the background to the debate and the position of the Secretary of State for Scotland, who is responsible. I will then suggest three recommendations.

Regarding the count for the list in the Lothians parliamentary constituency, the facts are plain and unmistakable. Counting ceased at approximately

6.45 am on Friday 7 May. Before that, at approximately 5.54 am, 10 additional pairs of counting staff were asked to help. Because insufficient room was available in hall 3, the votes were taken to the pairs in an adjacent room. The votes were then counted and returned. However, a mix-up occurred between the person returning the votes and the superintendent in the hall. It appears that the superintendent made a human error in not recording 2,097 votes in the overall figure. However those votes might have been counted, it would not have affected the overall result nor come close to doing so. [Interruption.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2056E57P84C711027", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliamentary Elections", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27023, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1119.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1119.0, "ID": 27023, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James", "ID": 2056, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "James Douglas-Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Lord James Douglas-Hamilton: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1129.0, "ContributionID": 711027, "EditedText": "I am also informed that the error is extremely unlikely to have affected the order of the last three members elected, who were me, the Presiding Officer—Sir David Steel—and Robin Harper. Incidentally, have to mention that on three other occasions I have been elected in Scotland with one of the three smallest majorities, so some of us are used to small majorities. I suspect, however, that the Presiding Officer is not so used to that situation. Who is responsible? The Secretary of State for Scotland. He wrote to me on 27 October. The letter has been lodged in the Parliament library. He was informed about the debacle by the chief executive of City of Edinburgh Council, but chose not to make the information public. I would have preferred the information to have been made public. I have always believed that if a mistake occurs it should be put right as soon as possible. The secretary of state wrote in his letter:\"Various provisions were made by order in implementation of Section 12 in The Scottish Parliament (Elections etc) Order 1999. But no power was given to the Secretary of State under this Order to order a recount.\" If 2,097 votes from Edinburgh West were unaccounted for, they should be recorded in the overall result. It goes against the principle of natural justice if they are not counted. Indeed, if they are never counted, it will mean that the principle of one person, one vote did not exist in Scotland during the first elections to the Scottish Parliament. A mechanism must therefore be found and put in place to count them. The fact that the order made under section 12 of the Scotland Act 1998 contains no powers to order a recount is a serious deficiency in the act, which must be remedied as soon as possible. After all, the people of Edinburgh West are being deprived of their right to have their votes recorded. I would be failing in my duty if I did not draw that to the attention of the Parliament. I will therefore respectfully submit to the secretary of state that a change to the legislation is necessary so that, in future, all votes cast in Scotland will be recorded properly in the overall result. That is my first recommendation. It is deplorable and a scandal that those 2,097 votes have not been recorded. My second recommendation is that there should be a national review. After all, there were substantial differences between the number of votes cast for list candidates and for first-past-thepost candidates, not just in Edinburgh West, but in Glasgow Anniesland, Cunninghame South, Hamilton South and Cumbernauld and Kilsyth. The matter requires careful examination. The secretary of state has agreed to a wide-ranging review, which I believe should have the status of a national review. My third recommendation is that the counts for local authority and Scottish parliamentary elections should be held on separate days. If the Scottish Parliament and local government elections are held on the same day, there is the potential for four counts on one day, if proportional representation is introduced for local government elections. Frank Sibbald, the Scottish branch secretary of the Association of Electoral Administrators, wrote to the secretary of state about the elections. He said: \"Although the ship did not sink, it came uncomfortably close to doing so and did spring leaks in many places . . . In almost all cases survival was only achieved by considerable, if not unreasonable, personal effort . . . by election staff, and by some degree of luck.\" More significantly, Gavin Anderson, the Government adviser on elections, told the City of Edinburgh Council on 28 October: \"The Association is very likely to take a very strong representation to the Secretary of State that, if the situation we had on 6 May—a combined poll with proportional representation—is repeated, he will be inviting administrative disaster.\" Holding four elections on the same day would be asking for trouble that would make the recent difficulties over football admissions in Glasgow look insignificant. My primary reason for asking for this debate is that the people of Edinburgh West and Lothians were responsible for electing me to this Parliament, for which I am extremely grateful. I feel a strong sense of dismay that 2,097 of their votes were not properly recorded in the result. I hope that assurances will be given that, in future elections, the people of Edinburgh West—and of Scotland as a whole—will be treated very much better.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am also informed that the error is extremely unlikely to have affected the order of the last three members elected, who were me, the Presiding Officer—Sir

David Steel—and Robin Harper. Incidentally, have to mention that on three other occasions I have been elected in Scotland with one of the three smallest majorities, so some of us are used to small majorities. I suspect, however, that the Presiding Officer is not so used to that situation.

Who is responsible? The Secretary of State for Scotland. He wrote to me on 27 October. The letter has been lodged in the Parliament library. He was informed about the debacle by the chief executive of City of Edinburgh Council, but chose not to make the information public. I would have preferred the information to have been made public. I have always believed that if a mistake occurs it should be put right as soon as possible.

The secretary of state wrote in his letter:

\"Various provisions were made by order in implementation of Section 12 in The Scottish Parliament (Elections etc) Order 1999. But no power was given to the Secretary of State under this Order to order a recount.\"

If 2,097 votes from Edinburgh West were unaccounted for, they should be recorded in the overall result. It goes against the principle of natural justice if they are not counted. Indeed, if they are never counted, it will mean that the principle of one person, one vote did not exist in Scotland during the first elections to the Scottish Parliament. A mechanism must therefore be found and put in place to count them.

The fact that the order made under section 12 of the Scotland Act 1998 contains no powers to order a recount is a serious deficiency in the act, which must be remedied as soon as possible. After all, the people of Edinburgh West are being deprived of their right to have their votes recorded. I would be failing in my duty if I did not draw that to the attention of the Parliament. I will therefore respectfully submit to the secretary of state that a change to the legislation is necessary so that, in future, all votes cast in Scotland will be recorded properly in the overall result. That is my first recommendation. It is deplorable and a scandal that those 2,097 votes have not been recorded.

My second recommendation is that there should be a national review. After all, there were substantial differences between the number of votes cast for list candidates and for first-past-thepost candidates, not just in Edinburgh West, but in Glasgow Anniesland, Cunninghame South, Hamilton South and Cumbernauld and Kilsyth. The matter requires careful examination. The secretary of state has agreed to a wide-ranging review, which I believe should have the status of a national review.

My third recommendation is that the counts for local authority and Scottish parliamentary elections should be held on separate days. If the Scottish Parliament and local government

elections are held on the same day, there is the potential for four counts on one day, if proportional representation is introduced for local government elections.

Frank Sibbald, the Scottish branch secretary of the Association of Electoral Administrators, wrote to the secretary of state about the elections. He said:

\"Although the ship did not sink, it came uncomfortably close to doing so and did spring leaks in many places . . . In almost all cases survival was only achieved by considerable, if not unreasonable, personal effort . . . by election staff, and by some degree of luck.\"

More significantly, Gavin Anderson, the Government adviser on elections, told the City of Edinburgh Council on 28 October:

\"The Association is very likely to take a very strong representation to the Secretary of State that, if the situation we had on 6 May—a combined poll with proportional representation—is repeated, he will be inviting administrative disaster.\"

Holding four elections on the same day would be asking for trouble that would make the recent difficulties over football admissions in Glasgow look insignificant.

My primary reason for asking for this debate is that the people of Edinburgh West and Lothians were responsible for electing me to this Parliament, for which I am extremely grateful. I feel a strong sense of dismay that 2,097 of their votes were not properly recorded in the result. I hope that assurances will be given that, in future elections, the people of Edinburgh West—and of Scotland as a whole—will be treated very much better.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2188E70P92C711032", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliamentary Elections", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27023, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1119.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1119.0, "ID": 27023, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harper, Robin", "ID": 2188, "PartyName": "Scottish Green Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Green", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robin Harper", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robin Harper (Lothians) (Green): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1143.0, "ContributionID": 711032, "EditedText": "I came last on the last list to be declared, so I am in the enviable—or unenviable—position of being the very last person to be elected to the Scottish Parliament. One of my complaints concerns the stress that we were all put under on that day for an extra 12 hours. I then suffered extra stress when the Edinburgh Evening News rang me to say that the election result might be invalid. I remember the horror that I felt; I was up in Aberdeen preparing for a debate—David McLetchie was with me—and we thought that we might have to go through the whole process again. The Government should note that we are not calling for Tom Aitchison's head. He has been an extremely efficient and good chief executive for City of Edinburgh Council over the years. We want some action that will enable the voters of Lothian region and Scotland to have confidence in the way the system will work next time. If there had been a higher turnout on that day, we would have had total, utter and complete chaos rather than just chaos. I back everything that I have heard so far. It is a matter of great concern to me, and to many people to whom I have spoken, that something went very badly wrong in the first election to the Scottish Parliament. I have not received a single word of apology from Tom Aitchison—no letter, no nothing. At the very least, we must have a statement to the Parliament to get the matter set right.", "EditedTextHTML": "I came last on the last list to be declared, so I am in the enviable—or unenviable—position of being the very last person to be elected to the Scottish Parliament.

One of my complaints concerns the stress that we were all put under on that day for an extra 12 hours. I then suffered extra stress when the Edinburgh Evening News rang me to say that the election result might be invalid. I remember the horror that I felt; I was up in Aberdeen preparing for a debate—David McLetchie was with me—and we thought that we might have to go through the whole process again.

The Government should note that we are not calling for Tom Aitchison's head. He has been an extremely efficient and good chief executive for City of Edinburgh Council over the years. We want some action that will enable the voters of Lothian region and Scotland to have confidence in the way the system will work next time. If there had been a higher turnout on that day, we would have had total, utter and complete chaos rather than just chaos.

I back everything that I have heard so far. It is a matter of great concern to me, and to many people to whom I have spoken, that something went very badly wrong in the first election to the Scottish Parliament. I have not received a single word of apology from Tom Aitchison—no letter, no nothing. At the very least, we must have a statement to the Parliament to get the matter set right.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1826E199P351C711035", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliamentary Elections", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27023, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1119.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1119.0, "ID": 27023, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Smith, Margaret", "ID": 1826, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Smith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Smith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1151.0, "ContributionID": 711035, "EditedText": "That is correct.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is correct.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C711040", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliamentary Elections", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27023, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1119.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1119.0, "ID": 27023, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Angus MacKay: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1161.0, "ContributionID": 711040, "EditedText": "I understand from the legal advice that I have received so far that no mechanism to hold a recount is open to the Parliament or its agencies. If MSPs or members of the public have information that contradicts that advice, the Executive would have to examine it. However, the matter is covered by reserved powers and is more properly for the consideration of the Secretary of State for Scotland. I shall return to that matter, in passing, later. As I said at the beginning of my speech, the matter needs to be reviewed seriously. The Secretary of State for Scotland has already indicated that he intends to undertake a wide- ranging review into the conduct of the election on 6 May. That is standard practice after an election, and it was promised before the election took place. It is particularly appropriate in these circumstances, given the fact that the elections were the first ever in Scotland to be fought under proportional representation. The problems that were faced by the returning officer in Edinburgh make the investigation and review all the more appropriate. The City of Edinburgh Council has agreed to submit a report on its own investigation into the matter to the secretary of state, who has said that he will take account of it in his wider review. As part of his review, the secretary of state will consult all returning officers and organisations such as the Association of Electoral Administrators and the Society of Local Authority Chief Executives. He will also consult the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities and all the political parties. He has stated that the problems in Edinburgh will be taken into account as part of that review. Ministerial responsibility lies in ensuring that the statutory duties that are placed on a returning officer are deliverable and that the task that they are charged with is not too onerous. That is what the secretary of state's review is, and should be, all about. Given the individuals and organisations that he is consulting, I am confident that he will receive full and frank views on what was asked of staff on 6 May, and that lessons will be learnt for future elections.", "EditedTextHTML": "I understand from the legal advice that I have received so far that no mechanism to hold a recount is open to the Parliament or its agencies. If MSPs or members of the public have information that contradicts that advice, the Executive would have to examine it. However, the matter is covered by reserved powers and is more properly for the consideration of the Secretary of State for Scotland. I shall return to that matter, in passing, later.

As I said at the beginning of my speech, the matter needs to be reviewed seriously. The Secretary of State for Scotland has already indicated that he intends to undertake a wide- ranging review into the conduct of the election on 6 May. That is standard practice after an election, and it was promised before the election took place. It is particularly appropriate in these circumstances, given the fact that the elections were the first ever in Scotland to be fought under proportional representation.

The problems that were faced by the returning officer in Edinburgh make the investigation and review all the more appropriate. The City of Edinburgh Council has agreed to submit a report on its own investigation into the matter to the secretary of state, who has said that he will take account of it in his wider review.

As part of his review, the secretary of state will consult all returning officers and organisations such as the Association of Electoral Administrators and the Society of Local Authority Chief Executives. He will also consult the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities and all the political parties. He has stated that the problems in Edinburgh will be taken into account as part of that review.

Ministerial responsibility lies in ensuring that the statutory duties that are placed on a returning officer are deliverable and that the task that they are charged with is not too onerous. That is what the secretary of state's review is, and should be, all about. Given the individuals and organisations

that he is consulting, I am confident that he will receive full and frank views on what was asked of staff on 6 May, and that lessons will be learnt for future elections.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C711048", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliamentary Elections", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27023, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1119.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1119.0, "ID": 27023, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Angus MacKay: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1177.0, "ContributionID": 711048, "EditedText": "We are in danger of straying from the subject of the review. I ought to point out that the ballot papers were different colours, so checking which ballot papers were in which boxes should have been a relatively straightforward, if time-consuming, task.", "EditedTextHTML": "We are in danger of straying from the subject of the review. I ought to point out that the ballot papers were different colours, so checking which ballot papers were in which boxes should have been a relatively straightforward, if time-consuming, task.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "C711052", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliamentary Elections", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27023, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1119.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1119.0, "ID": 27023, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1185.0, "ContributionID": 711052, "EditedText": "Meeting closed at 17:40.", "EditedTextHTML": "Meeting closed at 17:40.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.5608017+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C710508", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fergus Ewing (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 50.0, "ContributionID": 710508, "EditedText": "I am obliged to the minister for giving way. Does he agree with the remarks made by Tom Buncle, chief executive of the Scottish Tourist Board, at a major tourism conference a week or so ago? He said that the fuel duty escalator was damaging tourism because it increased the costs of transport and that it was especially damaging tourism in the Highlands and Islands.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am obliged to the minister for giving way. Does he agree with the remarks made by Tom Buncle, chief executive of the Scottish Tourist Board, at a major tourism conference a week or so ago? He said that the fuel duty escalator was damaging tourism because it increased the costs of transport and that it was especially damaging tourism in the Highlands and Islands.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:00:18.3299743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2180E179P471C710654", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lochhead, Richard", "ID": 2180, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Lochhead", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Richard Lochhead (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 367.0, "ContributionID": 710654, "EditedText": "First, I congratulate the Procedures Committee and the Presiding Officer on agreeing to allow members who move non-Executive motions to wind up their own debates. That is a very positive and welcome development. There have been some excellent speeches in this debate, and one or two reasonable contributions from the Labour party. We would have preferred more speeches from Labour MSPs, but of course they were not in the chamber to make them. One of the reasons rural affairs and concerns have been quite high on the Scottish Parliament's agenda since its inception is the fact that the Parliament has so many regional members. Indeed, seven out of the eight regions represented have rural concerns. As we have heard, rural Scotland is not homogeneous. Each area has different concerns that require different solutions. In one area, ferry prices might be the main issue; lack of amenities might be the main issue in another; and unemployment and housing, which Murray Tosh mentioned, might be the major problems in others. That is why it is important for solutions that tackle rural disadvantage to emerge from a bottom-up, not a top-down, process. Each local community will know best how to tackle disadvantage. We need to speak to and to work in partnership with communities. In Aberdeen yesterday, many delegates at a conference on rural development were concerned about access to policy making and to the Scottish Parliament. They were concerned that the Parliament would make policy without taking their concerns on board. The Parliament must reflect the whole of Scotland, including rural Scotland. One useful signal that we could send out for starters would be for our committees to meet outside Edinburgh as often as possible. We must not allow that to be prevented by penny-pinching by the Executive. Proper resources should be made available so that our committees can take on board local concerns. The dispersal of civil service jobs would also send out an excellent signal from the Parliament and the Executive. Civil service jobs should be dispersed to our smaller communities. With advances in information technology, that should not be a problem and we look forward to it happening. When we talk about local solutions to local problems, we must recognise the role of local authorities. There is no point in denying local authorities the cash to provide the front-line services that make many smaller rural communities viable. It is important that we work in partnership with local authorities to initiate joint action to develop infrastructure—roads, telecommunications and housing. Many members have mentioned the lack of infrastructure and the threat to the existing infrastructure in rural communities. Local authorities are also responsible for the provision of services. The lack of rural policing in many areas of Scotland must be tackled, as must the issue of post offices. It is imperative that there is joint action to ensure that rural banking services are available too. The Executive and the Parliament have a role to play in working with local communities and local authorities to achieve those aims. We must ensure a good quality of life in rural Scotland. That means providing amenities. Many towns in Scotland with a population of 13,000 or 14,000 do not have cinema or a sports centre. In a rich country such as Scotland, that is unacceptable. We must not forget our young people. How on earth can our smaller communities be viable without young people living and working in them? If we do not provide amenities, is it any wonder that young people cannot wait to move to the larger towns and cities? We blame young people for hanging around street corners, but we do not give them the facilities to allow them to go elsewhere. The Executive could, perhaps, start by initiating an audit of youth facilities in Scotland, particularly in rural communities where such facilities are a major issue. We must also have an audit of services to address issues such as the growing drugs problem. Partnership is important not only to overcome the threats to rural Scotland that have been mentioned today, but to harness the many opportunities to develop our rural economy. We must work together to develop not only the traditional industries such as farming, fishing and forestry, but the many new industries, such as renewable energy, for which Scotland has huge potential. Denmark, a country equivalent in size to Scotland, employs many thousands more people in renewable energy in rural communities than we do. Duncan Hamilton mentioned the advantages of information and communications technology and its potential for building the rural economy. We must exploit that potential to the full. New sectors are also developing in aquaculture, which offer tremendous opportunities. However, there are problems, such as the lack of a Government freshwater fisheries strategy. That is no use. The freshwater fisheries sector has tremendous potential for tourism, as well as other economic benefits. Organic farming, which Robin Harper mentioned, must also be developed for the benefit of our rural economy. I have already said that it is important that the Parliament is seen to represent the whole of Scotland. At yesterday's conference, one senior council official expressed concern that every time there is a factory closure within a few miles of Edinburgh or the central belt, the Executive seems rather more motivated to do something about it— to pull out all the stops—than when there is a closure or a threat to jobs in the periphery of Scotland. That rang a bell with me.", "EditedTextHTML": "First, I congratulate the Procedures Committee and the Presiding Officer on agreeing to allow members who move non-Executive motions to wind up their own debates. That is a very positive and welcome development.

There have been some excellent speeches in this debate, and one or two reasonable contributions from the Labour party. We would have preferred more speeches from Labour MSPs, but of course they were not in the chamber to make them.

One of the reasons rural affairs and concerns have been quite high on the Scottish Parliament's agenda since its inception is the fact that the Parliament has so many regional members. Indeed, seven out of the eight regions represented have rural concerns.

As we have heard, rural Scotland is not homogeneous. Each area has different concerns that require different solutions. In one area, ferry prices might be the main issue; lack of amenities might be the main issue in another; and unemployment and housing, which Murray Tosh mentioned, might be the major problems in others. That is why it is important for solutions that tackle rural disadvantage to emerge from a bottom-up, not a top-down, process. Each local community will know best how to tackle disadvantage. We need to speak to and to work in partnership with communities.

In Aberdeen yesterday, many delegates at a conference on rural development were concerned about access to policy making and to the Scottish Parliament. They were concerned that the Parliament would make policy without taking their concerns on board. The Parliament must reflect the whole of Scotland, including rural Scotland.

One useful signal that we could send out for starters would be for our committees to meet outside Edinburgh as often as possible. We must not allow that to be prevented by penny-pinching by the Executive. Proper resources should be made available so that our committees can take on board local concerns. The dispersal of civil service jobs would also send out an excellent signal from the Parliament and the Executive. Civil service jobs should be dispersed to our smaller communities. With advances in information technology, that should not be a problem and we look forward to it happening.

When we talk about local solutions to local problems, we must recognise the role of local authorities. There is no point in denying local authorities the cash to provide the front-line services that make many smaller rural communities viable. It is important that we work in partnership with local authorities to initiate joint action to develop infrastructure—roads, telecommunications and housing. Many members have mentioned the lack of infrastructure and the threat to the existing infrastructure in rural communities.

Local authorities are also responsible for the provision of services. The lack of rural policing in many areas of Scotland must be tackled, as must the issue of post offices. It is imperative that there is joint action to ensure that rural banking services are available too. The Executive and the Parliament have a role to play in working with local communities and local authorities to achieve those aims.

We must ensure a good quality of life in rural Scotland. That means providing amenities. Many towns in Scotland with a population of 13,000 or 14,000 do not have cinema or a sports centre. In a rich country such as Scotland, that is unacceptable.

We must not forget our young people. How on earth can our smaller communities be viable without young people living and working in them? If we do not provide amenities, is it any wonder that young people cannot wait to move to the larger towns and cities? We blame young people for hanging around street corners, but we do not

give them the facilities to allow them to go elsewhere. The Executive could, perhaps, start by initiating an audit of youth facilities in Scotland, particularly in rural communities where such facilities are a major issue. We must also have an audit of services to address issues such as the growing drugs problem.

Partnership is important not only to overcome the threats to rural Scotland that have been mentioned today, but to harness the many opportunities to develop our rural economy. We must work together to develop not only the traditional industries such as farming, fishing and forestry, but the many new industries, such as renewable energy, for which Scotland has huge potential.

Denmark, a country equivalent in size to Scotland, employs many thousands more people in renewable energy in rural communities than we do. Duncan Hamilton mentioned the advantages of information and communications technology and its potential for building the rural economy. We must exploit that potential to the full. New sectors are also developing in aquaculture, which offer tremendous opportunities. However, there are problems, such as the lack of a Government freshwater fisheries strategy. That is no use. The freshwater fisheries sector has tremendous potential for tourism, as well as other economic benefits. Organic farming, which Robin Harper mentioned, must also be developed for the benefit of our rural economy.

I have already said that it is important that the Parliament is seen to represent the whole of Scotland. At yesterday's conference, one senior council official expressed concern that every time there is a factory closure within a few miles of Edinburgh or the central belt, the Executive seems rather more motivated to do something about it— to pull out all the stops—than when there is a closure or a threat to jobs in the periphery of Scotland. That rang a bell with me.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:20.9827029+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2180E179P471C710662", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lochhead, Richard", "ID": 2180, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Lochhead", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Richard Lochhead: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 383.0, "ContributionID": 710662, "EditedText": "Well, what can I say? I wholeheartedly agree.", "EditedTextHTML": "Well, what can I say? I wholeheartedly agree.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:20.9827029+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2180E179P471C710664", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lochhead, Richard", "ID": 2180, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Lochhead", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Richard Lochhead: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 387.0, "ContributionID": 710664, "EditedText": "I am sorry; I have taken enough interventions and I do not have long left. The title of yesterday's conference in Aberdeen was \"The Scottish Parliament and Rural Policy: What Room for Manoeuvre?\" We have just heard from London that interest rates have gone up. There is plenty of room for manoeuvre by the Scottish Executive here in the Scottish Parliament. In the recent agriculture debate, Andrew Welsh asked what action the Executive was taking on the beef ban and whether any meetings were planned with the French Government. The Minister for Rural Affairs replied: \"Personally, I have had no such meetings. However, I have added the Scottish Executive's needs to the memos that are currently being circulated through our UK representative and through our ambassadorial team\".— Official Report, 7 October 1999; Vol 2, c 1194. Penning a name to the bottom of a memo is not exactly the representation that our rural industries are looking for from the first Minister for Rural Affairs in the first Scottish Parliament for 300 years. The Scottish Executive should be leadingEuropean negotiations in appropriate circumstances as a matter of course—as opposed to as and when it gets permission from the UK Government in London. There are plenty of things that we should be doing. The Minister for Rural Affairs should be flying down to London and making representations about the impact of the interest rate rise and fuel duty on our rural economy. The SNP does not underestimate the task before the Scottish Parliament. It is enormous, and it will require fresh thinking. We have to take on board the concerns of local communities and of the experts in the Arkleton Centre for Rural Development Research, the Macaulay Land Use Research Institute and the rest. We need fresh thinking to take rural Scotland forwards. In the annual report of the Macaulay institute, Jeff Maxwell says: \"National and local government, their agencies, voluntary bodies, land owners and local communities will all have to find new ways of interacting and finding a common purpose. This is no mean challenge and one that, in Scotland, is likely to continue for some time to exercise the minds of those who have been recently elected to the new Parliament\". The SNP's choice of motion for today illustrates that those challenges are exercising the minds of SNP members. We invite the other parties in the Parliament to join us in finding the long-term solutions by supporting our motion, so that we can make the phrase \"rural disadvantage\" redundant.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry; I have taken enough interventions and I do not have long left.

The title of yesterday's conference in Aberdeen was \"The Scottish Parliament and Rural Policy: What Room for Manoeuvre?\" We have just heard from London that interest rates have gone up. There is plenty of room for manoeuvre by the Scottish Executive here in the Scottish Parliament.

In the recent agriculture debate, Andrew Welsh asked what action the Executive was taking on the beef ban and whether any meetings were planned with the French Government. The Minister for Rural Affairs replied:

\"Personally, I have had no such meetings. However, I have added the Scottish Executive's needs to the memos that are currently being circulated through our UK representative and through our ambassadorial team\".— [Official Report, 7 October 1999; Vol 2, c 1194.]

Penning a name to the bottom of a memo is not exactly the representation that our rural industries are looking for from the first Minister for Rural Affairs in the first Scottish Parliament for 300 years.

The Scottish Executive should be leading

European negotiations in appropriate circumstances as a matter of course—as opposed to as and when it gets permission from the UK Government in London. There are plenty of things that we should be doing. The Minister for Rural Affairs should be flying down to London and making representations about the impact of the interest rate rise and fuel duty on our rural economy.

The SNP does not underestimate the task before the Scottish Parliament. It is enormous, and it will require fresh thinking. We have to take on board the concerns of local communities and of the experts in the Arkleton Centre for Rural Development Research, the Macaulay Land Use Research Institute and the rest. We need fresh thinking to take rural Scotland forwards.

In the annual report of the Macaulay institute, Jeff Maxwell says:

\"National and local government, their agencies, voluntary bodies, land owners and local communities will all have to find new ways of interacting and finding a common purpose. This is no mean challenge and one that, in Scotland, is likely to continue for some time to exercise the minds of those who have been recently elected to the new Parliament\".

The SNP's choice of motion for today illustrates that those challenges are exercising the minds of SNP members. We invite the other parties in the Parliament to join us in finding the long-term solutions by supporting our motion, so that we can make the phrase \"rural disadvantage\" redundant.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:20.9827029+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2180E179P471C710752", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Pig Industry", "QuestionHeadingID": 27009, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "DisplayOrder": 567.0, "ID": 27009, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lochhead, Richard", "ID": 2180, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Lochhead", "SpeakerDisplayName": "18. Richard Lochhead (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 568.0, "ContributionID": 710752, "EditedText": "This is the final pig question of the day. To ask the Scottish Executive whether it intends to write to local authorities and other public authorities highlighting the quality of pigmeat produced in Scotland and urging them to support the industry by sourcing their orders from local producers. (S1O-510)", "EditedTextHTML": "This is the final pig question of the day. To ask the Scottish Executive whether it intends to write to local authorities and other public authorities highlighting the quality of pigmeat produced in Scotland and urging them to support the industry by sourcing their orders from local producers. (S1O-510)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:20.9827029+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2180E179P471C710955", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lochhead, Richard", "ID": 2180, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Lochhead", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Richard Lochhead (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 994.0, "ContributionID": 710955, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:31.1569345+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C710693", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Landfill Sites", "QuestionHeadingID": 26994, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 428.0, "DisplayOrder": 428.0, "ID": 26994, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 435.0, "ContributionID": 710693, "EditedText": "I acknowledge that there are concerns, particularly in areas where there are landfall sites. It is crucial that we ensure that those sites are managed effectively and that the appropriate licences are attached. That is an issue for the Scottish Environment Protection Agency.", "EditedTextHTML": "I acknowledge that there are concerns, particularly in areas where there are landfall sites. It is crucial that we ensure that those sites are managed effectively and that the appropriate licences are attached. That is an issue for the Scottish Environment Protection Agency.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:08.9207112+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C710748", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Marine Protection", "QuestionHeadingID": 27007, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 553.0, "DisplayOrder": 553.0, "ID": 27007, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 558.0, "ContributionID": 710748, "EditedText": "It would be helpful if I explained, as I said in my answer to Robin Harper last week, that the moderation process on special marine areas and special areas of conservation is still in progress. Until that process has finished, which is looking at land-based SPAs and SACs, we will not move on to look at marine-based areas. However, I would be happy to talk to Tavish Scott about the other matters that he raised.", "EditedTextHTML": "It would be helpful if I explained, as I said in my answer to Robin Harper last week, that the moderation process on special marine areas and special areas of conservation is still in progress. Until that process has finished, which is looking at land-based SPAs and SACs, we will not move on to look at marine-based areas. However,

I would be happy to talk to Tavish Scott about the other matters that he raised.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:08.9207112+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C710821", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 717.0, "ContributionID": 710821, "EditedText": "I will take questions after I have finished my statement. On the same basis, the replacement for the local road, the A8000, which provides a connection from the Forth road bridge to the central Scotland motorway network, will be promoted by the City of Edinburgh Council working closely with Fife Council and West Lothian Council. Last November, the UK Government announced the preferred line for a new crossing of the Forth at Kincardine and plans to refurbish the existing bridge. Today, I can announce that we are appointing the Baptie Group to study engineering of the existing bridge, design of remedial works and the new structure and ecological surveys. We will also carry out transport surveys and modelling, including the potential to increase the use of public transport over the crossings. Both studies will consider whether early progress can be made on the proposed eastern link road to relieve some of the congestion that is currently experienced in Kincardine village. As the operation of the Forth bridge crossing affects the Kincardine bridge and vice versa, I will also be meeting the relevant local authorities and the Forth road bridge joint board to discuss those interlinked issues. In reaching my conclusions about the remaining schemes I have considered affordability—a notable change from the Conservative approach— as well as the outcome of our appraisal. We believe there are more appropriate alternative measures that can be pursued in five schemes. Those are the A92 from Preston to Balfarg; the A9 from Helmsdale to Ord of Caithness; the A96 Keith bypass; the M80 Kelvin valley option; and the A1 draft order scheme. We have also concluded that there is no valid case for retaining the M8/M6 fastlink. Three schemes will be held in abeyance and considered alongside other emerging priorities for a future trunk road programme. Potential schemes for that programme will be appraised using a multi- modal approach. The schemes are the A68 Dalkeith northern bypass, the A90 Balmedie to Tipperty route and the A985 Rosyth bypass. Five schemes will proceed, including the A96 Fochabers and Mosstodloch bypass, to continue the upgrading of the A96 and to remove through traffic from these towns; the A78 Ardrossan to Saltcoats bypass, to relieve congestion in the towns of Ardrossan, Saltcoats and Stevenston; and the A830 from Arisaig to Kinsadel to replace a single-track section of the main road to Mallaig. That is the last piece of single-track trunk road in Britain and, as Minister for Transport and the Environment, I am delighted to announce the scheme. Work will begin next year. We will also proceed with the A77 Fenwick to Malletsheugh scheme to provide a dual, two-lane motorway. I know that colleagues have been campaigning for action on that dangerous stretch of road for years. Finally, we will continue the dualling of the A1 Haddington to Dunbar expressway, an important, all-weather route to England. The route has been long awaited and the Executive has now delivered. I am sure each of the projects will be warmly welcomed in their localities. The A830, A96, A78 and A1 schemes will be funded in the conventional way from the motorway and trunk road programme, funding of which we have recently increased by £35 million. We are, however, prepared to use private funding when it clearly represents value for money and we will be investigating that approach for the A77 scheme. I emphasise that that will not involve the introduction of tolls on this new road. We will be having early discussions about co-operation and joint working with East Renfrewshire Council and South Lanarkshire Council, which are promoting the Glasgow southern orbital route. That scheme will relieve congestion and end environmental damage in Eaglesham village. It will also provide a modern alternative to the heavily trafficked B764 from East Kilbride to the A77. The extensive road building programme promised by the Conservatives was an unfunded wish list. It was also based on building new roads to meet the future rising tide of projected traffic increases. Current estimates are for a 38 per cent increase in traffic growth over the next 20 years and a 52 per cent increase over the next 30 years. We need a new approach, especially in our cities and in the more congested central belt. We must make public transport more attractive and seek ways of shifting freight off our roads. We must also recognise the important role that walking and cycling can play in an integrated strategy. We must ensure that they are safe options. Roads have an important role and we will maintain and restore the motorway and trunk road network after years of Tory neglect. We look to local authorities to do likewise in regard to the roads for which they are responsible. I have announced today a package of costed new roads that we can afford from the resources available— resources that were enhanced last year in the comprehensive spending review and that have been further increased in the Executive's first financial statement. Those have been tough choices, but this is a realistic programme. I believe it is the right way forward for Scotland. I commend this statement to Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will take questions after I have finished my statement.

On the same basis, the replacement for the local road, the A8000, which provides a connection from the Forth road bridge to the central Scotland motorway network, will be promoted by the City of Edinburgh Council working closely with Fife Council and West Lothian Council.

Last November, the UK Government announced the preferred line for a new crossing of the Forth at Kincardine and plans to refurbish the existing bridge. Today, I can announce that we are appointing the Baptie Group to study engineering of the existing bridge, design of remedial works and the new structure and ecological surveys. We will also carry out transport surveys and modelling, including the potential to increase the use of public transport over the crossings. Both studies will consider whether early progress can be made on the proposed eastern link road to relieve some of the congestion that is currently experienced in Kincardine village.

As the operation of the Forth bridge crossing affects the Kincardine bridge and vice versa, I will also be meeting the relevant local authorities and the Forth road bridge joint board to discuss those interlinked issues.

In reaching my conclusions about the remaining schemes I have considered affordability—a notable change from the Conservative approach— as well as the outcome of our appraisal.

We believe there are more appropriate alternative measures that can be pursued in five schemes. Those are the A92 from Preston to Balfarg; the A9 from Helmsdale to Ord of Caithness; the A96 Keith bypass; the M80 Kelvin valley option; and the A1 draft order scheme. We have also concluded that there is no valid case for retaining the M8/M6 fastlink.

Three schemes will be held in abeyance and considered alongside other emerging priorities for a future trunk road programme. Potential schemes for that programme will be appraised using a multi- modal approach. The schemes are the A68 Dalkeith northern bypass, the A90 Balmedie to Tipperty route and the A985 Rosyth bypass.

Five schemes will proceed, including the A96 Fochabers and Mosstodloch bypass, to continue the upgrading of the A96 and to remove through traffic from these towns; the A78 Ardrossan to Saltcoats bypass, to relieve congestion in the towns of Ardrossan, Saltcoats and Stevenston; and the A830 from Arisaig to Kinsadel to replace a single-track section of the main road to Mallaig.

That is the last piece of single-track trunk road in Britain and, as Minister for Transport and the Environment, I am delighted to announce the scheme. Work will begin next year. We will also proceed with the A77 Fenwick to Malletsheugh scheme to provide a dual, two-lane motorway. I know that colleagues have been campaigning for action on that dangerous stretch of road for years. Finally, we will continue the dualling of the A1 Haddington to Dunbar expressway, an important, all-weather route to England. The route has been long awaited and the Executive has now delivered. I am sure each of the projects will be warmly welcomed in their localities.

The A830, A96, A78 and A1 schemes will be funded in the conventional way from the motorway and trunk road programme, funding of which we have recently increased by £35 million. We are, however, prepared to use private funding when it clearly represents value for money and we will be investigating that approach for the A77 scheme. I emphasise that that will not involve the introduction of tolls on this new road.

We will be having early discussions about co-operation and joint working with East Renfrewshire Council and South Lanarkshire Council, which are promoting the Glasgow southern orbital route. That scheme will relieve congestion and end environmental damage in Eaglesham village. It will also provide a modern alternative to the heavily trafficked B764 from East Kilbride to the A77.

The extensive road building programme promised by the Conservatives was an unfunded wish list. It was also based on building new roads to meet the future rising tide of projected traffic increases. Current estimates are for a 38 per cent increase in traffic growth over the next 20 years and a 52 per cent increase over the next 30 years.

We need a new approach, especially in our cities and in the more congested central belt. We must make public transport more attractive and seek ways of shifting freight off our roads. We must also recognise the important role that walking and cycling can play in an integrated strategy. We must ensure that they are safe options.

Roads have an important role and we will maintain and restore the motorway and trunk road network after years of Tory neglect. We look to local authorities to do likewise in regard to the roads for which they are responsible. I have announced today a package of costed new roads that we can afford from the resources available— resources that were enhanced last year in the comprehensive spending review and that have been further increased in the Executive's first financial statement. Those have been tough choices, but this is a realistic programme. I believe it is the right way forward for Scotland. I commend this statement to Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:08.9207112+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C710827", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 729.0, "ContributionID": 710827, "EditedText": "I am happy to answer that, and I note the points that the Presiding Officer made at the start of these questions. We have carried out extensive consultation with our paper on tackling congestion. The question that Mr MacAskill asked related to existing trunk roads and motorways.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am happy to answer that, and I note the points that the Presiding Officer made at the start of these questions.

We have carried out extensive consultation with our paper on tackling congestion. The question that Mr MacAskill asked related to existing trunk roads and motorways.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:08.9207112+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C710829", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 733.0, "ContributionID": 710829, "EditedText": "Yes. It would not be my intention to include, in the legislation that I will bring to this Parliament for further discussion and consultation, the issue of trunk road and motorway tolls as a power for this Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes. It would not be my intention to include, in the legislation that I will bring to this Parliament for further discussion and

consultation, the issue of trunk road and motorway tolls as a power for this Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:08.9207112+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C710831", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 737.0, "ContributionID": 710831, "EditedText": "Clearly, the local authorities involved could pursue a number of options. Part of my intention in the programme that we will bring forward in our integrated transport bill will be to provide a number of powers for local authorities to consider, covering such options as workplace parking levies and local road user charging. There is a variety of funding options, which I will be looking to the local authorities to explore. It would be prescriptive of me, at this stage, to tell them how I think they should take those options forward. That has to be the product of future debate.", "EditedTextHTML": "Clearly, the local authorities involved could pursue a number of options. Part of my intention in the programme that we will bring forward in our integrated transport bill will be to provide a number of powers for local authorities to consider, covering such options as workplace parking levies and local road user charging. There is a variety of funding options, which I will be looking to the local authorities to explore. It would be prescriptive of me, at this stage, to tell them how I think they should take those options forward. That has to be the product of future debate.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:08.9207112+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C710833", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 741.0, "ContributionID": 710833, "EditedText": "The Executive intends to begin consideration of the A77 project after today's debate. As for the Glasgow southern orbital route, I had initial talks when I visited Fenwick with Mr Neil and several other MSPs. I am very aware of the issues involved in the timing of the two routes and I intend to ensure that the co-ordination and progress of the projects will be undertaken with those concerns in mind.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Executive intends to begin consideration of the A77 project after today's debate. As for the Glasgow southern orbital route, I had initial talks when I visited Fenwick with Mr Neil and several other MSPs. I am very aware of the issues involved in the timing of the two routes and I intend to ensure that the co-ordination and progress of the projects will be undertaken with those concerns in mind.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:08.9207112+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C710837", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 749.0, "ContributionID": 710837, "EditedText": "I have already said that we have had to make difficult choices. As we do not have sufficient funds to implement every scheme, we have had to prioritise. Councils could take advantage of very realistic options for developing schemes. I am confident that that would lead to full consideration of other road projects and the development of options.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have already said that we have had to make difficult choices. As we do not have sufficient funds to implement every scheme, we have had to prioritise. Councils could take advantage of very realistic options for developing schemes. I am confident that that would lead to full consideration of other road projects and the development of options.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:08.9207112+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C710868", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 811.0, "ContributionID": 710868, "EditedText": "The timetable will follow later.", "EditedTextHTML": "The timetable will follow later.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:08.9207112+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C710872", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 819.0, "ContributionID": 710872, "EditedText": "One of the points that I made was that the local authorities involved in the scheme would have to give sufficient justification for it in their local transport strategies. I would expect them to include relevant information to that end.", "EditedTextHTML": "One of the points that I made was that the local authorities involved in the scheme would have to give sufficient justification for it in their local transport strategies. I would expect them to include relevant information to that end.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:08.9207112+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1756E184P464C710536", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Grahame, Christine", "ID": 1756, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Christine Grahame", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 107.0, "ContributionID": 710536, "EditedText": "Does the member agree that Scottish farmers are the only farmers in Europe who pay for veterinary inspection certificates, which in other European countries are paid for by the state? Would he like the same to apply here?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the member agree that Scottish farmers are the only farmers in Europe who pay for veterinary inspection certificates, which in other European countries are paid for by the state? Would he like the same to apply here?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:00:21.9656621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1756E184P464C710611", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture and Rural Affairs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26988, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26988, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Grahame, Christine", "ID": 1756, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Christine Grahame", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 273.0, "ContributionID": 710611, "EditedText": "I quote from The Herald's \"in brief\" column today, headed \"Finnie urges rural rethink\". \"New ways of thinking and approaches to social, environmental and economic issues are needed to create a sustainable future for rural Scotland.\"I am right with Mr Finnie on that, so I have three things I ask him to think about with reference to the Scottish Borders: trains, abattoirs and meat processing. The Borders has a population of 106,000 and there are no railway stations. There are 208,000 people in the Highlands and there are 57 railway stations. That says it all. That has a big economic and social impact on communities. At the recent rail seminar it was clear that Railtrack is keen to get into the Borders. I want to know whether the Executive will let us have money for that. A rail link is needed to transport freight, which now travels by inadequate roads, and the topography of the Borders is not suitable for road expansion. We need the reinstatement of a rail link between Edinburgh, Galashiels and Hawick, to carry electronics, farm produce, forestry and people. The Executive talks about social inclusion. Nearly 30 per cent of families in the Borders do not have motor vehicles and those that do face the rural petrol price hikes that Fergus Ewing referred to. The bus service is expensive and slow. It is essential that rail links are reinstated—Mr Finnie, I wish you were listening—", "EditedTextHTML": "I quote from The Herald's \"in brief\" column today, headed \"Finnie urges rural rethink\".

\"New ways of thinking and approaches to social, environmental and economic issues are needed to create a

sustainable future for rural Scotland.\"

I am right with Mr Finnie on that, so I have three things I ask him to think about with reference to the Scottish Borders: trains, abattoirs and meat processing.

The Borders has a population of 106,000 and there are no railway stations. There are 208,000 people in the Highlands and there are 57 railway stations. That says it all. That has a big economic and social impact on communities. At the recent rail seminar it was clear that Railtrack is keen to get into the Borders. I want to know whether the Executive will let us have money for that. A rail link is needed to transport freight, which now travels by inadequate roads, and the topography of the Borders is not suitable for road expansion. We need the reinstatement of a rail link between Edinburgh, Galashiels and Hawick, to carry electronics, farm produce, forestry and people.

The Executive talks about social inclusion. Nearly 30 per cent of families in the Borders do not have motor vehicles and those that do face the rural petrol price hikes that Fergus Ewing referred to. The bus service is expensive and slow. It is essential that rail links are reinstated—Mr Finnie, I wish you were listening—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:00:34.116328+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C710878", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 831.0, "ContributionID": 710878, "EditedText": "The reviews will be started from today. I do not have dates for completion, but I am happy to report them to the member later.", "EditedTextHTML": "The reviews will be started from today. I do not have dates for completion, but I am happy to report them to the member later.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:14.3101891+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C710880", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 835.0, "ContributionID": 710880, "EditedText": "Progress will commence as soon as possible. The expenditure is included in our costed programmes, so the scheme will go ahead.", "EditedTextHTML": "Progress will commence as soon as possible. The expenditure is included in our costed programmes, so the scheme will go ahead.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:14.3101891+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C710882", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 839.0, "ContributionID": 710882, "EditedText": "A range of criteria was used. It is important to note that some improvement work has been carried out on that stretch of road, and that, as I understand it, other options may lead to improvements, such as alignment of the route and the possibility of crossings. Today's announcement does not mean that no work will take place in the future, only that the specific scheme will not be carried forward.", "EditedTextHTML": "A range of criteria was used. It is important to note that some improvement work has been carried out on that stretch of road, and that, as I understand it, other options may lead to improvements, such as alignment of the route and the possibility of crossings. Today's announcement does not mean that no work will take place in the future, only that the specific scheme will not be carried forward.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:14.3101891+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C710890", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 855.0, "ContributionID": 710890, "EditedText": "Yes. The review is about the strategic roads programme and the use of our road network. I intend to take forward the issue of road user charging through legislation—that will be a different piece of work. The debate has been on-going for the past four months, and I have discussed with many people a number of issues, including additionality, hypothecation and transparency. I intend that debate to continue. My statement today was on the strategic roads review.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes. The review is about the strategic roads programme and the use of our road network. I intend to take forward the issue of road user charging through legislation—that will be a different piece of work. The debate has been on-going for the past four months, and I have discussed with many people a number of issues, including additionality, hypothecation and transparency. I intend that debate to continue. My statement today was on the strategic roads review.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:14.3101891+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C710971", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1029.0, "ContributionID": 710971, "EditedText": "No.Today's strategic review is about choices. We have had to make difficult choices.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

Today's strategic review is about choices. We have had to make difficult choices.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:14.3101891+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C710973", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1033.0, "ContributionID": 710973, "EditedText": "No, I will not.We have used criteria of accessibility, integration, safety and environment. It is critical to take all those things together. We have a costed roads programme, which means that the roads that are listed today will go ahead. We expect a start date in a couple of years' time for the M77, Fenwick to Malletsheugh, with a completion date three years later. That route will cost £60 million. Construction on the A1, Haddington to Dunbar, could begin in the next two years. We need to go through the planning process for that. The cost will be £32 million. Construction on the A78, the three towns bypass, could begin within the next couple of years. The work will cost £26 million. Construction on the A830 should begin next year and will cost £10 million. Construction on the A96 should begin within the next three years and will cost £12 million.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I will not.

We have used criteria of accessibility, integration, safety and environment. It is critical to take all those things together. We have a costed roads programme, which means that the roads that are listed today will go ahead.

We expect a start date in a couple of years' time for the M77, Fenwick to Malletsheugh, with a completion date three years later. That route will cost £60 million.

Construction on the A1, Haddington to Dunbar, could begin in the next two years. We need to go through the planning process for that. The cost will be £32 million.

Construction on the A78, the three towns bypass, could begin within the next couple of years. The work will cost £26 million.

Construction on the A830 should begin next year and will cost £10 million.

Construction on the A96 should begin within the next three years and will cost £12 million.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:14.3101891+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C710986", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Strategic Roads Review", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 27019, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 703.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 703.0, "ID": 27019, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1059.0, "ContributionID": 710986, "EditedText": "May I respond to Mr Salmond's point?", "EditedTextHTML": "May I respond to Mr Salmond's point?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:14.3101891+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1783E59P270C710798", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27014, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 612.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27015, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 613.0, "QuestionHeading": "Joint Working", "QuestionHeadingID": 27018, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 664.0, "DisplayOrder": 664.0, "ID": 27018, "ParentID": 27015 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Baillie, Jackie", "ID": 1783, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumbarton" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Jackie Baillie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Jackie Baillie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 669.0, "ContributionID": 710798, "EditedText": "\"Modernising Community Care\"sets out ways in which local authorities, health boards, national health service trusts and Scottish Homes can work together more effectively on projects such as joint commissioning and pooling of resources. If organisational or administrative barriers such as those that Johann Lamont has described are present at a local level, health ministers will be interested in the details of the situation. I understand that the health ministers are meeting with local authorities tomorrow to discuss how to take forward that shared agenda.", "EditedTextHTML": "\"Modernising Community Care\"

sets out ways in which local authorities, health boards, national health service trusts and Scottish Homes can work together more effectively on projects such as joint commissioning and pooling of resources. If organisational or administrative barriers such as those that Johann Lamont has described are present at a local level, health ministers will be interested in the details of the situation. I understand that the health ministers are meeting with local authorities tomorrow to discuss how to take forward that shared agenda.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:13:41.2269066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1783E59P270C710800", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27014, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 612.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27015, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 613.0, "QuestionHeading": "Joint Working", "QuestionHeadingID": 27018, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 664.0, "DisplayOrder": 664.0, "ID": 27018, "ParentID": 27015 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Baillie, Jackie", "ID": 1783, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumbarton" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Jackie Baillie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Jackie Baillie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 673.0, "ContributionID": 710800, "EditedText": "The compact that the Parliament endorsed yesterday sets out a new way of working between the Executive and the voluntary sector and between other agencies and the voluntary sector. The Convention of Scottish Local Authorities is producing guidance on the matter, and I hope that the related discussions will take place at a local level.", "EditedTextHTML": "The compact that the Parliament endorsed yesterday sets out a new way of working between the Executive and the voluntary sector and between other agencies and the voluntary sector. The Convention of Scottish Local Authorities is producing guidance on the matter, and I hope that the related discussions will take place at a local level.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:13:41.2269066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1783E59P270C710804", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 27014, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 612.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 27015, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 613.0, "QuestionHeading": "Joint Working", "QuestionHeadingID": 27018, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 664.0, "DisplayOrder": 664.0, "ID": 27018, "ParentID": 27015 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Baillie, Jackie", "ID": 1783, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumbarton" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Jackie Baillie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Jackie Baillie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 681.0, "ContributionID": 710804, "EditedText": "That initiative is still on-going. The five pathfinder councils shared their experience of community planning with other local authorities in March 1999, and we are in the process of asking other councils to submit their proposals to the Executive.", "EditedTextHTML": "That initiative is still on-going. The five pathfinder councils shared their experience of community planning with other local authorities in March 1999, and we are in the process of asking other councils to submit their proposals to the Executive.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:13:41.2269066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C710729", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 04 Nov 1999", "ID": 4188 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-04T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26990, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 412.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26991, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Ninewells Hospital", "QuestionHeadingID": 27004, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 512.0, "DisplayOrder": 512.0, "ID": 27004, "ParentID": 26991 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 517.0, "ContributionID": 710729, "EditedText": "I thank the minister for her reply. When she considers the issues that underpin the acute services review that Sir David Carter is conducting, and the primacy that is attached to the principle of equality of access to services—that all our constituents should enjoy equality of access, no matter in which part of the country they happen to live—does she believe that the concerns in the Tayside area about the possible threat to the neurosurgical unit at Ninewells hospital are in any way justified?", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the minister for her reply. When she considers the issues that underpin the acute services review that Sir David Carter is conducting, and the primacy that is attached to the principle of equality of access to services—that all our constituents should enjoy equality of access, no matter in which part of the country they happen to live—does she believe that the concerns in the Tayside area about the possible threat to the neurosurgical unit at Ninewells hospital are in any way justified?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:12:28.4701587+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2105E44P74C710368", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harding, Mr Keith", "ID": 2105, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Harding", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Keith Harding (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 62.0, "ContributionID": 710368, "EditedText": "It was his understanding.", "EditedTextHTML": "It was his understanding.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4514296+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2080E130P217C710358", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lamont, Johann", "ID": 2080, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Pollok" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Johann Lamont", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Johann Lamont (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 42.0, "ContributionID": 710358, "EditedText": "Does Phil Gallie recognise the particular role of women in the voluntary sector? Women in the voluntary sector welcome the emphasis that this Government places on child care. In the voluntary sector, one hears time and again about the importance of good quality child care in enabling people to participate in whatever way they choose.", "EditedTextHTML": "Does Phil Gallie recognise the particular role of women in the voluntary sector? Women in the voluntary sector welcome the emphasis that this Government places on child care. In the voluntary sector, one hears time and again about the importance of good quality child care in enabling people to participate in whatever way they choose.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4514296+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C710366", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 58.0, "ContributionID": 710366, "EditedText": "At that time there were also lower rates, because VAT levels were split, and the Conservatives went for an all-embracing level. Having said that—", "EditedTextHTML": "At that time there were also lower rates, because VAT levels were split, and the Conservatives went for an all-embracing level. Having said that—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4514296+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C710370", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 66.0, "ContributionID": 710370, "EditedText": "My recollection of the 1979 election is that the equalisation of VAT rates was an aim. My understanding is that there were VAT levels at 25 per cent as well as at lower levels. If I am wrong, fair enough, but that is my understanding and at no time would I ever intentionally mislead the Parliament in the way that the gentleman suggested. The Conservatives did the voluntary sector proud over the years. They introduced means of encouraging charitable donations through the payroll and in other ways. This Government has continued that, but it could do much more. A major improvement—it is up to the chancellor, but this Parliament should put pressure on him—would be to give voluntary organisations the right to retrieve the VAT that they have paid. I move amendment S1M-240.2, to leave out from \"welcomes\" to end and insert: \"stresses its commitment to maintaining the independence of the voluntary sector, notes that it has a role to play that is locally determined and distinctive, should not be directed by and fulfils different needs from services provided by the state, and agrees that this is best enhanced by encouraging individual giving through the use of the tax system to support people who voluntarily give to charities.\"", "EditedTextHTML": "My recollection of the 1979 election is that the equalisation of VAT rates was an aim. My understanding is that there were VAT levels at 25 per cent as well as at lower levels. If I am wrong, fair enough, but that is my understanding and at no time would I ever intentionally mislead the Parliament in the way that the gentleman suggested.

The Conservatives did the voluntary sector proud over the years. They introduced means of encouraging charitable donations through the payroll and in other ways. This Government has continued that, but it could do much more. A major improvement—it is up to the chancellor, but this Parliament should put pressure on him—would be to give voluntary organisations the right to retrieve the VAT that they have paid.

I move amendment S1M-240.2, to leave out from \"welcomes\" to end and insert:

\"stresses its commitment to maintaining the independence of the voluntary sector, notes that it has a role to play that is locally determined and distinctive, should not be directed by and fulfils different needs from services provided by the state, and agrees that this is best enhanced by encouraging individual giving through the use of the tax system to support people who voluntarily give to charities.\"

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4514296+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C710371", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 68.0, "ContributionID": 710371, "EditedText": "It would be helpful if members, when taking interventions, remembered to address their remarks through the chair. Speeches will now be time-limited to four minutes, so eyes on the clock, please.", "EditedTextHTML": "It would be helpful if members, when taking interventions, remembered to address their remarks through the chair. Speeches will now be time-limited to four minutes, so eyes on the clock, please.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4514296+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C710372", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Keith Raffan (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 71.0, "ContributionID": 710372, "EditedText": "I will try to get the debate back on track. Applause. I welcome the speech by the Deputy Minister for Communities. We on the Liberal Democrat benches are happy to endorse the Scottish compact. I will address one reservation in a moment—it was alluded to by Lloyd Quinan in his remarks. I welcome the independent review of charity law. The review, as announced by the minister, is very much in line with what the Scottish Council for Voluntary Organisations has been calling for—it will be delighted. That is an important announcement and will be helpful to the voluntary sector. I endorse the point that Lloyd Quinan made about the voluntary sector. The Scottish compact describes the principles underpinning the relationship between Government and the voluntary sector in Scotland—specifically the bodies fulfilling a service provision role in the social welfare sector. That is what the compact is about. It is important that we remember that there is a large body of organisations outside the compact, particularly those involved in Scottish Environment LINK. I will not repeat the list that Lloyd gave the chamber. They see themselves as fundamentally independent of the Government; partnership with the Government is not central to their work. They are happy to be in partnership with the Executive for specific, targeted objectives, but most of their work is independent and some of it is aimed at changing Government policy. Some of those organisations might see it as their predominant role to monitor and criticise Government policy. I am sure that we welcome their continuing lobbying role. It is important to see the compact in that context of service providers in the social welfare sector. I do not have much time, so I will move on to the key issue of funding. I had a letter from the minister today—it was timely—in response to issues that I raised in the previous debate. What a coincidence. Her reply was helpful and I am grateful to her for that. She made the point that we want to create a more stable funding environment. I am sure that everyone in the chamber would endorse that, particularly as the voluntary sector in Scotland is more dependent on public sector funding than in the UK as a whole. I know that the Executive's role is principally to fund national organisations. The Executive funds local projects only if they are particularly innovative or are pilot schemes. I raised with the minister the problem of LEAD—Linking Education and Disability—in Fife. That organisation has been active in Fife for 15 years and has done a huge amount for those with disabilities. This week, four glossy documents about social inclusion were published. I respect the contribution that those documents make—indeed, the Social Inclusion, Housing and Voluntary Sector Committee was taking evidence on them in this very chamber earlier today. It is unfortunate, however, that in that context we find that an organisation as valuable as LEAD is closing down after 15 years' work. We are holding debates in this chamber on how to include people more, but at the same time we are closing down organisations in the field that have been doing such valuable work. The minister said that she did not want to interfere in local authority decisions. I understand that, but she cannot avoid responsibility and nor can the Executive, because its budgeting has a direct impact on local authority budgets. I say this with some sensitivity, because I represent Perth and Kinross, which has been threatened with capping—\"that crude mechanism\", as the First Minister called it once, and I hope that he will do so again. When councils are threatened with capping for being only slightly over budget guidelines—Perth and Kinross was 1.1 per cent over—they look for savings in certain areas. The voluntary sector is often the first to be hit. In Fife, the situation is even more dramatic. I have with me a copy of the joint motion drawn up by the Liberal Democrats and Labour—we are in partnership on this issue in Fife. Although the Liberal Democrats are in opposition to Labour in Fife, we produced a joint motion on local government funding, such is the pressure on local government funding. If a local authority such as Fife has had to find £47 million to fund pay awards without Government assistance over the past six years, certain services are bound to suffer. In this case, it is the voluntary sector and organisations such as LEAD. We must bear it in mind that the Scottish Executive's budgeting has a direct impact on local authorities and on their ability to provide stable funding. We must look at that. I accept that the Minister for Communities and the deputy minister are committed to stable, three-year funding, but we cannot expect local authorities to provide stable, three-year funding when they are under such pressure.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will try to get the debate back on track. [Applause.] I welcome the speech by the Deputy Minister for Communities. We on the Liberal Democrat benches are happy to endorse the Scottish compact. I will address one reservation in a moment—it was alluded to by Lloyd Quinan in his remarks.

I welcome the independent review of charity law. The review, as announced by the minister, is very much in line with what the Scottish Council for Voluntary Organisations has been calling for—it will be delighted. That is an important announcement and will be helpful to the voluntary sector.

I endorse the point that Lloyd Quinan made about the voluntary sector. The Scottish compact describes the principles underpinning the relationship between Government and the voluntary sector in Scotland—specifically the bodies fulfilling a service provision role in the social welfare sector. That is what the compact is about.

It is important that we remember that there is a large body of organisations outside the compact, particularly those involved in Scottish Environment LINK. I will not repeat the list that Lloyd gave the chamber. They see themselves as fundamentally independent of the Government; partnership with the Government is not central to their work. They are happy to be in partnership with the Executive for specific, targeted objectives, but most of their work is independent and some of it is aimed at changing Government policy. Some of those organisations might see it as their predominant role to monitor and criticise Government policy. I am sure that we welcome their continuing lobbying role. It is important to see the compact in that context of service providers in the social welfare sector.

I do not have much time, so I will move on to the key issue of funding. I had a letter from the minister today—it was timely—in response to issues that I raised in the previous debate. What a coincidence. Her reply was helpful and I am

grateful to her for that. She made the point that we want to create a more stable funding environment. I am sure that everyone in the chamber would endorse that, particularly as the voluntary sector in Scotland is more dependent on public sector funding than in the UK as a whole.

I know that the Executive's role is principally to fund national organisations. The Executive funds local projects only if they are particularly innovative or are pilot schemes. I raised with the minister the problem of LEAD—Linking Education and Disability—in Fife. That organisation has been active in Fife for 15 years and has done a huge amount for those with disabilities. This week, four glossy documents about social inclusion were published. I respect the contribution that those documents make—indeed, the Social Inclusion, Housing and Voluntary Sector Committee was taking evidence on them in this very chamber earlier today. It is unfortunate, however, that in that context we find that an organisation as valuable as LEAD is closing down after 15 years' work. We are holding debates in this chamber on how to include people more, but at the same time we are closing down organisations in the field that have been doing such valuable work.

The minister said that she did not want to interfere in local authority decisions. I understand that, but she cannot avoid responsibility and nor can the Executive, because its budgeting has a direct impact on local authority budgets. I say this with some sensitivity, because I represent Perth and Kinross, which has been threatened with capping—\"that crude mechanism\", as the First Minister called it once, and I hope that he will do so again. When councils are threatened with capping for being only slightly over budget guidelines—Perth and Kinross was 1.1 per cent over—they look for savings in certain areas. The voluntary sector is often the first to be hit.

In Fife, the situation is even more dramatic. I have with me a copy of the joint motion drawn up by the Liberal Democrats and Labour—we are in partnership on this issue in Fife. Although the Liberal Democrats are in opposition to Labour in Fife, we produced a joint motion on local government funding, such is the pressure on local government funding. If a local authority such as Fife has had to find £47 million to fund pay awards without Government assistance over the past six years, certain services are bound to suffer. In this case, it is the voluntary sector and organisations such as LEAD.

We must bear it in mind that the Scottish Executive's budgeting has a direct impact on local authorities and on their ability to provide stable funding. We must look at that. I accept that the Minister for Communities and the deputy minister are committed to stable, three-year funding, but we cannot expect local authorities to provide stable, three-year funding when they are under such pressure.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4514296+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C710373", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 73.0, "ContributionID": 710373, "EditedText": "I ask the member to wind up, please.", "EditedTextHTML": "I ask the member to wind up, please.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4514296+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C710374", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 75.0, "ContributionID": 710374, "EditedText": "I will make one more point about funding, although there are others that I would like to make but cannot because the Liberal Democrat front-bench spokesmen get only a fraction of the time allocated to the Scottish National party and the Conservatives. I hope that that will be resolved shortly because it is completely unsatisfactory.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will make one more point about funding, although there are others that I would like to make but cannot because the Liberal Democrat front-bench spokesmen get only a fraction of the time allocated to the Scottish National party and the Conservatives. I hope that that will be resolved shortly because it is completely unsatisfactory.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4514296+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1769E16P282C710377", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Smith, Elaine", "ID": 1769, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Coatbridge and Chryston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Smith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Elaine Smith (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 82.0, "ContributionID": 710377, "EditedText": "I welcome the Executive's commitment to the voluntary sector and to volunteering. That commitment is reflected in \"The Scottish Compact\". I welcome the formal acknowledgement that volunteers and volunteering make valuable contributions to the development of a more inclusive, participative and democratic society. I will focus on two areas that are mentioned in the compact under the heading \"Recognition\". It is pertinent and important that the Executive has been clear in its commitment to recognise and support the sector's independence, as stated by the minister. That independence includes the right to comment on and to challenge Government policy. As has been mentioned, some organisations might be wary of biting the hand that feeds them. I heard a comment on that issue from a voluntary organisation yesterday, but I was pleased to point it in the direction of the compact and to reassure it that it is perfectly acceptable for it to put its views forward, even if those views challenge Government policy. That organisation will be reassured by the minister's comments today. It is also important that the Government is committed to supporting volunteering initiatives as a means of extending people's participation in their communities. I have a vested interest in one such initiative—volunteering in practice—that is now nearing the end of its pilot status.I was the volunteer manager for one of the two pilot projects that were designed to tap into the great potential that exists for extending voluntary activity into primary care. There is a long-standing tradition of volunteering in the national health service—valid contributions are made by many groups and individuals. However, it was felt that a more co-ordinated strategy for volunteering in the NHS was required. To that end, Volunteer Development Scotland has been developing such a strategy since 1997. It consulted health boards and has had assistance from local volunteering development agencies. NHS trusts are now required to develop volunteering policies by the end of next year, and those policies must be submitted to the Scottish Executive. As part of the volunteering in health initiative it was recognised that there was not the same tradition of or opportunities for volunteering in primary care. What activity there was lacked co-ordination and focus. That initiative was instigated to identify the volunteering opportunities in general practices and to encourage and promote the engagement of volunteers. The aim was also to enhance the quality of care and support given to patients and carers and to produce good practice guidelines. Examples of projects within that initiative include delivery of prescriptions to the elderly and the housebound, family support programmes, assistance with community transport, and support for people with medical conditions that require a change of lifestyle, such as diabetes type 2. The benefits of such projects are unlimited. Opportunities are provided to improve the overall delivery of services and active citizenship is encouraged. Through them, people become more involved in their communities and inequality is tackled through empowerment and participation. Those projects complement the work that is currently undertaken by paid staff and professionals. Pilot schemes in Culloden and Dundee are coming to an end; the results are being made available for any who are interested to see them. I hope that the Executive will take them on board and that it will take steps to encourage, support and promote the development of that type of volunteering activity in primary care. I would like to see such initiatives in my constituency and throughout Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the Executive's commitment to the voluntary sector and to volunteering. That commitment is reflected in \"The Scottish Compact\". I welcome the formal acknowledgement that volunteers and volunteering make valuable contributions to the development of a more inclusive, participative and democratic society.

I will focus on two areas that are mentioned in the compact under the heading \"Recognition\". It is pertinent and important that the Executive has been clear in its commitment to recognise and support the sector's independence, as stated by the minister. That independence includes the right to comment on and to challenge Government policy.

As has been mentioned, some organisations might be wary of biting the hand that feeds them. I heard a comment on that issue from a voluntary organisation yesterday, but I was pleased to point it in the direction of the compact and to reassure it that it is perfectly acceptable for it to put its views forward, even if those views challenge Government policy. That organisation will be reassured by the minister's comments today.

It is also important that the Government is committed to supporting volunteering initiatives as a means of extending people's participation in their communities. I have a vested interest in one such initiative—volunteering in practice—that is

now nearing the end of its pilot status.

I was the volunteer manager for one of the two pilot projects that were designed to tap into the great potential that exists for extending voluntary activity into primary care. There is a long-standing tradition of volunteering in the national health service—valid contributions are made by many groups and individuals. However, it was felt that a more co-ordinated strategy for volunteering in the NHS was required. To that end, Volunteer Development Scotland has been developing such a strategy since 1997. It consulted health boards and has had assistance from local volunteering development agencies. NHS trusts are now required to develop volunteering policies by the end of next year, and those policies must be submitted to the Scottish Executive.

As part of the volunteering in health initiative it was recognised that there was not the same tradition of or opportunities for volunteering in primary care. What activity there was lacked co-ordination and focus. That initiative was instigated to identify the volunteering opportunities in general practices and to encourage and promote the engagement of volunteers. The aim was also to enhance the quality of care and support given to patients and carers and to produce good practice guidelines.

Examples of projects within that initiative include delivery of prescriptions to the elderly and the housebound, family support programmes, assistance with community transport, and support for people with medical conditions that require a change of lifestyle, such as diabetes type 2.

The benefits of such projects are unlimited. Opportunities are provided to improve the overall delivery of services and active citizenship is encouraged. Through them, people become more involved in their communities and inequality is tackled through empowerment and participation. Those projects complement the work that is currently undertaken by paid staff and professionals.

Pilot schemes in Culloden and Dundee are coming to an end; the results are being made available for any who are interested to see them. I hope that the Executive will take them on board and that it will take steps to encourage, support and promote the development of that type of volunteering activity in primary care. I would like to see such initiatives in my constituency and throughout Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4514296+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2118E157P454C710382", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Quinan, Mr Lloyd", "ID": 2118, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lloyd Quinan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Quinan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 94.0, "ContributionID": 710382, "EditedText": "On a point of information. On the final page of the compact, the name Cathy Peattie appears next to Councils for Voluntary Service, Scotland. Is that the same Cathy Peattie?", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of information. On the final page of the compact, the name Cathy Peattie appears next to Councils for Voluntary Service, Scotland. Is that the same Cathy Peattie?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4514296+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2118E157P454C710384", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Quinan, Mr Lloyd", "ID": 2118, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lloyd Quinan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Quinan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 98.0, "ContributionID": 710384, "EditedText": "Thank you.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4514296+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1754E157P235C710387", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Peattie, Cathy", "ID": 1754, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Cathy Peattie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Cathy Peattie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 104.0, "ContributionID": 710387, "EditedText": "I did so the last time, but I am no longer associated with Councils for Voluntary Service, Scotland. I have worked in community development, as have many people in voluntary organisations. It is in the nature of community development to question a host of things. Therefore, there will be times—quite rightly—when the voluntary sector will question the funders, whether local or national Government. The compact provides for that. I am worried about the idea of creating an independent body to oversee the compact. The Scottish Council for Voluntary Organisations, Volunteer Development Scotland and similar national bodies exist to do that. As an ex-worker in the voluntary sector who is, like many members, committed to that sector, I do not think that it is the Parliament's place to create anything for that sector. If the voluntary sector needs to be overseen, it will do that itself.I will now talk a wee bit about the review of charity law and the proposed forum. That is welcome. Voluntary sector organisations have been saying for some time that there should be a change. The law as it stands is ambiguous and can cause a great many problems for charities in Scotland. I have been involved in Councils for Voluntary Service, Scotland, but I welcome the review. I advise Phil Gallie that Councils for Voluntary Service, Scotland and the SCVO welcome the review that is taking place. It is something for which they have been waiting for several years. The councils for voluntary service work locally and are involved in community development. They are involved at the chalk face, working with, and often managed by, local people. Any review of the councils for voluntary service will record that information. I welcome the review. I also welcome the commitment to ensure that there is a local volunteer development agency in every area, and that the councils for voluntary service are spread throughout Scotland. It is important that we are having this debate. Members generally agree that the voluntary sector is a good thing, but it is like motherhood and apple pie: as somebody who was involved in the voluntary sector for a long time, I often found it hard to get politicians to talk about the sector. Sometimes politicians take the outdated view—as has Phil Gallie—that it is just a matter of throwing a wee bit money to those good people to do good things for poor people. However, the voluntary sector is vibrant and self-helped. It is run by local people and is active. It is something that the Scottish Parliament needs to support, not only for the good of Scotland, but for the democracy of Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "I did so the last time, but I am no longer associated with Councils for Voluntary Service, Scotland.

I have worked in community development, as have many people in voluntary organisations. It is in the nature of community development to question a host of things. Therefore, there will be times—quite rightly—when the voluntary sector will question the funders, whether local or national Government. The compact provides for that.

I am worried about the idea of creating an independent body to oversee the compact. The Scottish Council for Voluntary Organisations, Volunteer Development Scotland and similar national bodies exist to do that. As an ex-worker in the voluntary sector who is, like many members, committed to that sector, I do not think that it is the Parliament's place to create anything for that sector. If the voluntary sector needs to be

overseen, it will do that itself.

I will now talk a wee bit about the review of charity law and the proposed forum. That is welcome. Voluntary sector organisations have been saying for some time that there should be a change. The law as it stands is ambiguous and can cause a great many problems for charities in Scotland.

I have been involved in Councils for Voluntary Service, Scotland, but I welcome the review. I advise Phil Gallie that Councils for Voluntary Service, Scotland and the SCVO welcome the review that is taking place. It is something for which they have been waiting for several years. The councils for voluntary service work locally and are involved in community development. They are involved at the chalk face, working with, and often managed by, local people. Any review of the councils for voluntary service will record that information. I welcome the review. I also welcome the commitment to ensure that there is a local volunteer development agency in every area, and that the councils for voluntary service are spread throughout Scotland.

It is important that we are having this debate. Members generally agree that the voluntary sector is a good thing, but it is like motherhood and apple pie: as somebody who was involved in the voluntary sector for a long time, I often found it hard to get politicians to talk about the sector. Sometimes politicians take the outdated view—as has Phil Gallie—that it is just a matter of throwing a wee bit money to those good people to do good things for poor people. However, the voluntary sector is vibrant and self-helped. It is run by local people and is active. It is something that the Scottish Parliament needs to support, not only for the good of Scotland, but for the democracy of Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4514296+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C710390", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 111.0, "ContributionID": 710390, "EditedText": "There is no doubt that the cost side has to be looked at as well as the income side. Today, I am concentrating on the income side, but as Phil knows, from time to time we agree. The second major source of income is personal donations. The latest available figures, for the two- year period from 1996 to 1998, show a 22.4 per cent reduction in personal donations. I know that the chancellor has introduced some new incentives for personal donations to the voluntary sector, through gift aid and payroll giving. However, a major black hole has developed. At a time when disposable incomes are rising significantly, we need to examine why personal donations have gone down by nearly a quarter, and consider ways of reversing that trend. Phil made some practical points about the way in which funds from the national lottery are distributed. I do not want to get into that, but I want to make the point that there is a case for devolving the two national lottery distribution funds that are relevant to the voluntary sector. Devolving that responsibility to this Parliament, through the Executive, would be worth considering, because in the allocation of resources within the lottery system, Scottish priorities might well be different from English, Welsh, Northern Irish or UK priorities. That would be a worthwhile reform, which would be beneficial to the voluntary sector in Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "There is no doubt that the cost side has to be looked at as well as the income side. Today, I am concentrating on the income side, but as Phil knows, from time to time we agree.

The second major source of income is personal donations. The latest available figures, for the two- year period from 1996 to 1998, show a 22.4 per cent reduction in personal donations. I know that the chancellor has introduced some new incentives for personal donations to the voluntary sector, through gift aid and payroll giving. However, a major black hole has developed. At a time when disposable incomes are rising significantly, we need to examine why personal donations have gone down by nearly a quarter, and consider ways of reversing that trend.

Phil made some practical points about the way in which funds from the national lottery are distributed. I do not want to get into that, but I want to make the point that there is a case for devolving the two national lottery distribution funds that are relevant to the voluntary sector. Devolving that responsibility to this Parliament, through the Executive, would be worth considering, because in the allocation of resources within the lottery system, Scottish priorities might well be different from English, Welsh, Northern Irish or UK priorities. That would be a worthwhile reform, which would be beneficial to the voluntary sector in Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4514296+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1805E13P109C710393", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Whitefield, Karen", "ID": 1805, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Airdrie and Shotts" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Karen Whitefield", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Karen Whitefield (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 118.0, "ContributionID": 710393, "EditedText": "The Scottish compact\"is a quantum leap in the voluntary sector's relations with central government in Scotland . . . and a framework for a robust and frank relationship which will yield benefits for the whole Scottish community\". Those are not my words, nor are they the words of an over-zealous member of the Executive, although I concur completely with the sentiments. They are the words of Neil McIntosh, the convener of the Scottish Council for Voluntary Organisations. For too long, the efforts of the voluntary sector have lacked the recognition that they rightly deserve. The Scottish compact acknowledges the voluntary sector's valuable contribution. Volunteer Development Scotland has stated that \"the Compact reflects the Government's appreciation and understanding of the role of volunteers and of the voluntary sector in Scotland\". The Scottish compact is part of a range of measures that demonstrate the Executive's recognition of and commitment to the voluntary sector. The Executive is making commitments such as a guaranteed place for the voluntary sector on each of the social inclusion partnerships; £1 million to establish people's juries and panels; and £300,000 for the Scottish Civic Forum. The final and most impressive evidence of the Executive's commitment to the voluntary sector is the establishment of the voluntary issues unit at the heart of the Executive. That development will ensure that a healthy dialogue exists between the Executive and the voluntary sector and that all policies that pass through the Executive are proofed for their impact on the sector. There is some concern that the compact seeks to incorporate the voluntary sector. However, I believe that the compact makes explicit the right of—and indeed the necessity for—the voluntary sector in Scotland to remain independent. Furthermore, the document recognises the sector's important role in critically analysing Government policy and its impact on the sector. I welcome the compact's commitment to promoting an understanding of the value of the voluntary sector to non-departmental public bodies such as local enterprise companies. The partnership approach, which is already being used in social inclusion partnership areas, should extend throughout Scotland. Complex problems such as social exclusion demand co-ordinated and sophisticated responses. It is vital that there is mutual understanding and respect between agencies such as Scottish Homes and LECs and the voluntary sector. The councils for voluntary service have a major role to play in community capacity building and community development. They are also ideally placed to act as a linking agency between smaller community and voluntary organisations and nondepartmental public bodies. My local CVS, the Monklands Association of Voluntary Services, provides support to a wide range of voluntary groups in Airdrie and Coatbridge. The provision of support to groups such as credit unions, food co-ops, and mothers and toddlers groups greatly enhances the lives of many people in my constituency. I understand the voluntary sector's desire to examine the issue of charity law and charity tax reform, which are complex matters that touch on reserved powers. I welcome the minister's announcement to review those matters. As the First Minister—the then Secretary of State of Scotland—points out in his foreword to the compact, the compact is not \"an end in itself\", but the basis for a strong working relationship between the Scottish Executive and the voluntary sector and a formal recognition of the voluntary sector's value to Scottish society. This is a significant first step, which should be welcomed by all members.", "EditedTextHTML": "

The Scottish compact

\"is a quantum leap in the voluntary sector's relations with central government in Scotland . . . and a framework for a robust and frank relationship which will yield benefits for the whole Scottish community\".

Those are not my words, nor are they the words of an over-zealous member of the Executive, although I concur completely with the sentiments. They are the words of Neil McIntosh, the convener of the Scottish Council for Voluntary Organisations.

For too long, the efforts of the voluntary sector have lacked the recognition that they rightly deserve. The Scottish compact acknowledges the voluntary sector's valuable contribution. Volunteer Development Scotland has stated that

\"the Compact reflects the Government's appreciation and understanding of the role of volunteers and of the voluntary sector in Scotland\".

The Scottish compact is part of a range of measures that demonstrate the Executive's recognition of and commitment to the voluntary sector. The Executive is making commitments such as a guaranteed place for the voluntary sector on each of the social inclusion partnerships; £1 million to establish people's juries and panels; and £300,000 for the Scottish Civic Forum.

The final and most impressive evidence of the Executive's commitment to the voluntary sector is the establishment of the voluntary issues unit at the heart of the Executive. That development will ensure that a healthy dialogue exists between the Executive and the voluntary sector and that all policies that pass through the Executive are proofed for their impact on the sector.

There is some concern that the compact seeks to incorporate the voluntary sector. However, I believe that the compact makes explicit the right of—and indeed the necessity for—the voluntary sector in Scotland to remain independent. Furthermore, the document recognises the sector's important role in critically analysing Government policy and its impact on the sector.

I welcome the compact's commitment to promoting an understanding of the value of the voluntary sector to non-departmental public bodies such as local enterprise companies. The partnership approach, which is already being used in social inclusion partnership areas, should extend throughout Scotland. Complex problems such as social exclusion demand co-ordinated and sophisticated responses. It is vital that there is mutual understanding and respect between agencies such as Scottish Homes and LECs and the voluntary sector.

The councils for voluntary service have a major role to play in community capacity building and community development. They are also ideally placed to act as a linking agency between smaller community and voluntary organisations and nondepartmental public bodies.

My local CVS, the Monklands Association of Voluntary Services, provides support to a wide range of voluntary groups in Airdrie and Coatbridge. The provision of support to groups such as credit unions, food co-ops, and mothers and toddlers groups greatly enhances the lives of many people in my constituency.

I understand the voluntary sector's desire to examine the issue of charity law and charity tax reform, which are complex matters that touch on reserved powers. I welcome the minister's announcement to review those matters.

As the First Minister—the then Secretary of State of Scotland—points out in his foreword to the compact, the compact is not \"an end in itself\", but the basis for a strong working relationship between the Scottish Executive and the voluntary sector and a formal recognition of the voluntary sector's value to Scottish society. This is a significant first step, which should be welcomed by all members.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4514296+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C710397", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 127.0, "ContributionID": 710397, "EditedText": "Your name is showing on my screen. If you do not want to speak, I shall call Cathie Craigie.", "EditedTextHTML": "Your name is showing on my screen. If you do not want to speak, I shall call Cathie Craigie.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C710401", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Richard Simpson (Ochil) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 139.0, "ContributionID": 710401, "EditedText": "Like everybody else, I welcome the signing of the Scottish compact. I have some sympathy with the SNP's amendment, as I think that we need to address the problem of organisations that are not signed up. I would like to suggest that it is possible to sign them up in another way. Within the compact are opportunities for review and discussion. Towards the end, it talks about establishing\"a framework to monitor and evaluate its operations jointly with the sector\". That should be taken to mean the whole sector, not just those represented in the initial compact. It is perfectly possible to involve those organisations; it does not require the setting up of another quango. Indeed, I was under the impression that the Scottish National party was against the establishment of quangos.", "EditedTextHTML": "Like everybody else, I welcome the signing of the Scottish compact. I have some sympathy with the SNP's amendment, as I think that we need to address the problem of organisations that are not signed up. I would like to suggest that it is possible to sign them up in another way.

Within the compact are opportunities for review and discussion. Towards the end, it talks about

establishing

\"a framework to monitor and evaluate its operations jointly with the sector\".

That should be taken to mean the whole sector, not just those represented in the initial compact. It is perfectly possible to involve those organisations; it does not require the setting up of another quango. Indeed, I was under the impression that the Scottish National party was against the establishment of quangos.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2118E157P454C710402", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Quinan, Mr Lloyd", "ID": 2118, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lloyd Quinan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Quinan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 141.0, "ContributionID": 710402, "EditedText": "It would be an independent body.", "EditedTextHTML": "It would be an independent body.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C710403", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Simpson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 143.0, "ContributionID": 710403, "EditedText": "It would have to be funded somehow, so it would be a sort of quango, unless the member has specific proposals to the contrary.", "EditedTextHTML": "It would have to be funded somehow, so it would be a sort of quango, unless the member has specific proposals to the contrary.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C710409", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Simpson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 155.0, "ContributionID": 710409, "EditedText": "That was a rhetorical question.I believe that there is a significant role here for this Parliament, which is not specifically mentioned in the compact. The parliamentary system, through its committees and the chamber, is the protection that those other voluntary organisations will have. At this stage, there is no need for us to set up an independent body. However, it will be necessary for us to keep this compact under scrutiny by the committees and this chamber. I am sure that we will do that. There are one or two issues relating to the sector that I would like to mention. I was going to talk about primary care, but that has been dealt with very ably by my colleague Elaine Smith. I have some concerns about the short-term funding that still goes on, particularly in local authority-funded funding. The move towards three- year funding, which will benefit the sector, and which both the Executive and the UK Government have embarked on, is of great importance but must be reflected at all levels because the consequence of short-term funding is that paid administrators in voluntary organisations spend a lot of time trying to get new funding every year, which is not an effective use of their time. Short-term funding also means that many people in the sector are employed on short contracts. That has deleterious effects. The principle of avoiding short-term contracts has been recognised. Sam Galbraith, when examining the health service last year, before this Parliament started, indicated that the NHS should largely abolish short-term contracts because of their deleterious effect not only on the people on such contracts, but on the organisations they work for. The new system of funding will, I hope, help in that respect. The Parliament and the Government have a role in scrutinising, benchmarking and encouraging local authorities in their compacts with voluntary organisations. I understand that they are being encouraged to set up similar compacts, which is excellent. There should be a much longer-term approach. I want to stress that, because it is more efficient. Parliament has a role that is not spelt out in this document, but it is implied. It is the role that the SNP amendment refers to. We should return to consider that amendment only if that role does not succeed and we have real difficulties.", "EditedTextHTML": "That was a rhetorical question.

I believe that there is a significant role here for this Parliament, which is not specifically mentioned in the compact. The parliamentary system, through its committees and the chamber, is the protection that those other voluntary organisations will have. At this stage, there is no need for us to set up an independent body. However, it will be necessary for us to keep this compact under scrutiny by the committees and this chamber. I am sure that we will do that.

There are one or two issues relating to the sector that I would like to mention. I was going to talk about primary care, but that has been dealt with very ably by my colleague Elaine Smith.

I have some concerns about the short-term funding that still goes on, particularly in local authority-funded funding. The move towards three- year funding, which will benefit the sector, and which both the Executive and the UK Government have embarked on, is of great importance but must be reflected at all levels because the consequence of short-term funding is that paid administrators in voluntary organisations spend a lot of time trying to get new funding every year, which is not an effective use of their time.

Short-term funding also means that many people in the sector are employed on short contracts. That has deleterious effects. The principle of avoiding short-term contracts has been recognised. Sam Galbraith, when examining the health service last year, before this Parliament started, indicated that the NHS should largely abolish short-term contracts because of their deleterious effect not only on the people on such contracts, but on the organisations they work for. The new system of funding will, I hope, help in that respect.

The Parliament and the Government have a role in scrutinising, benchmarking and encouraging local authorities in their compacts with voluntary organisations. I understand that they are being encouraged to set up similar compacts, which is excellent. There should be a much longer-term approach. I want to stress that, because it is more efficient.

Parliament has a role that is not spelt out in this document, but it is implied. It is the role that the SNP amendment refers to. We should return to consider that amendment only if that role does not succeed and we have real difficulties.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1814E135P516C710416", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Fabiani, Linda", "ID": 1814, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Linda Fabiani", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Linda Fabiani: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 171.0, "ContributionID": 710416, "EditedText": "Do you accept that, because of the new housing partnership funding, an awful lot of money is wasted by many organisations with aspirations? Hundreds of thousands of pounds are wasted on consultancy fees. If the brief for the new housing partnerships had been a bit tighter and more clearly explained, many organisations would have realised the futility of spending all that money. I am not knocking the system, I am saying that it needs to be examined more carefully, to make it more effective all round.", "EditedTextHTML": "Do you accept that, because of the new housing partnership funding, an awful lot of money is wasted by many organisations with aspirations? Hundreds of thousands of pounds are wasted on consultancy fees. If the brief for the new housing partnerships had been a bit tighter and more clearly explained, many organisations would have realised the futility of spending all that money. I am not knocking the system, I am saying that it needs to be examined more carefully, to make it more effective all round.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1931E120P189C710417", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Muldoon, Bristow", "ID": 1931, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Livingston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bristow Muldoon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bristow Muldoon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 173.0, "ContributionID": 710417, "EditedText": "I accept that some organisations that bid have used some of their resources in the process. However, from my experience in dealing with that process, I think that the benefits to the public sector in general outweigh the costs incurred by the organisations that bid. Valid points have been made about the question of gift funding through the taxation system, and I hope that the Executive will develop and promote that throughout the public sector. I also hope that the public sector will encourage the private sector to follow suit. Finally, I would like to respond to Alex Neil's point about the Chancellor of the Exchequer reexamining the funding of the voluntary sector. I understand that the chancellor launched a consultation process earlier this year. He may well come forward with proposals in due course.", "EditedTextHTML": "I accept that some organisations that bid have used some of their resources in the process. However, from my experience in dealing with that process, I think that the benefits to the public sector in general outweigh the costs incurred by the organisations that bid.

Valid points have been made about the question of gift funding through the taxation system, and I hope that the Executive will develop and promote that throughout the public sector. I also hope that the public sector will encourage the private sector to follow suit.

Finally, I would like to respond to Alex Neil's point about the Chancellor of the Exchequer reexamining the funding of the voluntary sector. I understand that the chancellor launched a consultation process earlier this year. He may well come forward with proposals in due course.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1865E219P509C710418", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "White, Sandra", "ID": 1865, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sandra White", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Sandra White (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 176.0, "ContributionID": 710418, "EditedText": "I will try to be brief. Previous speakers have mentioned the hard work and dedication of the voluntary sector workers. I echo that. Without them, many people would be worse off. That applies to both the workers and the receivers. I would also like to pay tribute to the many children involved in the voluntary sector. I congratulate YouthLink Scotland on its excellent work. I would like to share one of my experiences from many years ago, when my children were small. During the school holidays, it was a nightmare to find something for them to do. At that time, there were no activities for children. That is when I first got involved with the voluntary sector. I went to the citizens advice bureau and they told me where to go. Along with several other mothers, I set up a summer play scheme. We ran the play scheme very successfully for many years. I still meet some of the kids who took part—who now have kids of their own—and they say that they enjoyed the many activities that we provided for them. Children are our future and we must provide such facilities. The point that I want to make is that we could not have done anything without the help of the local authorities. They provided us with money, free school lets, free use of playing fields and free janitorial time. I want the Executive to take that on board. Over the past three years, the Labour party has cut local government spending by about £2.4 billion. That is a fact, and I would like Jackie Baillie to take it on board. I want to ensure that local councils receive adequate funding to support local voluntary organisations. Another worry is the advent of the private finance initiative in schools, about which the local press has been vocal. Will voluntary organisations still enjoy the use of schools and playing fields? I hope that the minister will answer that question.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will try to be brief. Previous speakers have mentioned the hard work and dedication of the voluntary sector workers. I echo that. Without them, many people would be worse off. That applies to both the workers and the receivers. I would also like to pay tribute to the many children involved in the voluntary sector. I congratulate YouthLink Scotland on its excellent work.

I would like to share one of my experiences from many years ago, when my children were small. During the school holidays, it was a nightmare to find something for them to do. At that time, there were no activities for children. That is when I first got involved with the voluntary sector. I went to the citizens advice bureau and they told me where to go. Along with several other mothers, I set up a summer play scheme. We ran the play scheme very successfully for many years. I still meet some of the kids who took part—who now have kids of their own—and they say that they enjoyed the many activities that we provided for them. Children are our future and we must provide such facilities.

The point that I want to make is that we could not have done anything without the help of the local authorities. They provided us with money, free school lets, free use of playing fields and free janitorial time. I want the Executive to take that on board. Over the past three years, the Labour party has cut local government spending by about £2.4 billion. That is a fact, and I would like Jackie Baillie to take it on board. I want to ensure that local councils receive adequate funding to support local voluntary organisations.

Another worry is the advent of the private finance initiative in schools, about which the local press has been vocal. Will voluntary organisations still enjoy the use of schools and playing fields? I hope that the minister will answer that question.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2234E7P20C710420", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Aitken, Bill", "ID": 2234, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bill Aitken", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bill Aitken (Glasgow) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 182.0, "ContributionID": 710420, "EditedText": "In her opening speech, the Deputy Minister for Communities was complimentary about the voluntary sector, quite correctly, and I have no doubts as to her sincerity. How could she have been otherwise towards a body that makes a £1.8 billion contribution to the Scottish economy, provides 100,000 jobs and involves 300,000 people? All of us must bear that in mind and be careful in our dealings with the voluntary sector, considering the debt owed to them by the community overall. At the same time, we can derive a degree of pride from the fact that some 10 per cent of Scotland's adult population is involved in the voluntary sector. That is why I feel that we require to be sensitive in our dealings with them. While there is much that can be regarded as common sense in \"The Scottish Compact\"—I am sure that we have not seen the last of such glossy and, no doubt, highly expensive documents that we have become very used to under this Administration—we have to examine the basic situation. In Yorkshire language, if it ain't broke, don't fix it: the voluntary sector is working in a highly satisfactory manner. Of course, some things do have to be examined, and we fully support the commitment that the deputy minister gave that a commission on charity law is to be established. When it carries out its research it will find some interesting things, not least that some of the law relating to the administration of charities goes back more than 100 years. Perhaps, in her summing-up, the Minister for Communities could outline the scope of the review that is to be carried out, and let us know whether she is satisfied with the existing procedure whereby the Lord Advocate investigates charities in cases where things have gone wrong. She might also take some time to consider what measures should be taken to deal with defunct charities whose trustees and beneficiaries are deceased. Clearly, there is a waste of resources there. We appreciate that, perhaps for the first time, there is a formalisation of the need to have a degree of performance review for operating charities. The most obvious cause for concern must be that 100,000 people are employed in the charity sector, administering the effort of 300,000 mostly part-time volunteers. There has perhaps been a degree of duplication, and, I hope, when the review is carried out, it will have an effect. Basically, we do not find the terms of \"The Scottish Compact\" acceptable. We feel that there is a degree of interference in the work of the charitable sector. Why do people become volunteers? They do so for many reasons. As Lloyd Quinan said, it is a diverse sector. The main reason is that they want to put something into society. They often wish to direct their input along a fairly restricted ambit. That being the case, we should let them do so. We should not in any way inhibit them from doing what they want to do. I strongly submit that when we formalise something, as has been done in the compact, we run that very risk. I dealt earlier with sensitivity on that matter. It is important to realise that the voluntary sector feels itself becoming more and more put upon. The blame for that does not lie exclusively with the present Administration—I am pleased to acknowledge that—but we are, as a society, looking more and more to the voluntary sector to do things which would probably, some years ago, have been the remit of local or central Government. We have to examine that situation and recognise that we are asking the voluntary sector to do things that we would, some time ago, have had to do ourselves. Therefore, we do not want to upset voluntary organisations in any way. To accuse the Minister for Communities of control freakism or Big Brotherism would be over the top, and I would never wish to be that. However, it is important that the independence of the sector is recognised, thus enabling it to be more in touch with communities generally, and with what requires to be done. Voluntary organisations require independence to achieve their aims and to react to local needs. Many members have spoken about various bodies, for example, in Dundee and Coatbridge—I confess I am intrigued by the idea of the centenarian baker from Coatbridge who had such input despite her advanced age. Those bodies know what is good for their communities; they do not require the Scottish Parliament or Westminster, or even the local authority, to tell them what is best. \"The Scottish Compact\" contains the implied threat—I put it no more strongly than that—that funding will be arranged and diverted along certain channels. That must be a matter of some concern. The voluntary sector must, to some extent, put its own house in order. I dealt earlier with the need for performance review. There is definitely a need for consolidation among some organisations, a number of which do the same job. That point is dealt with in \"The Scottish Compact\". The majority of people in voluntary sector organisations must be allowed the independence of movement, thought and activity that would enable them to perform the task to which they were appointed, democratically, by their membership set-up. That applies whether the organisation comprises three or four people in a rural village or is an inner-city drug charity. My message to the Government is quite blunt: it should butt out of this sort of situation and allow the voluntary sector to carry on with what it has been doing for years with a great degree of success. The Government cannot involve itself too closely with such activities; to do so would have a stifling and inhibiting effect. In the end, we would all be the losers.", "EditedTextHTML": "In her opening speech, the Deputy Minister for Communities was complimentary about the voluntary sector, quite correctly, and I have no doubts as to her sincerity. How could she have been otherwise towards a body that makes a £1.8 billion contribution to the Scottish economy, provides 100,000 jobs and involves 300,000 people? All of us must bear that in mind and be careful in our dealings with the voluntary sector, considering the debt owed to them by the community overall. At the same time, we can derive a degree of pride from the fact that some 10 per cent of Scotland's adult population is involved in the voluntary sector. That is why I feel that we require to be sensitive in our dealings with them.

While there is much that can be regarded as common sense in \"The Scottish Compact\"—I am sure that we have not seen the last of such glossy and, no doubt, highly expensive documents that we have become very used to under this Administration—we have to examine the basic situation. In Yorkshire language, if it ain't broke, don't fix it: the voluntary sector is working in a highly satisfactory manner.

Of course, some things do have to be examined, and we fully support the commitment that the deputy minister gave that a commission on charity law is to be established. When it carries out its research it will find some interesting things, not least that some of the law relating to the administration of charities goes back more than 100 years.

Perhaps, in her summing-up, the Minister for Communities could outline the scope of the review that is to be carried out, and let us know whether she is satisfied with the existing procedure whereby the Lord Advocate investigates charities in cases where things have gone wrong. She might also take some time to consider what measures should be taken to deal with defunct charities whose trustees and beneficiaries are deceased. Clearly, there is a waste of resources there.

We appreciate that, perhaps for the first time, there is a formalisation of the need to have a degree of performance review for operating charities. The most obvious cause for concern must be that 100,000 people are employed in the charity sector, administering the effort of 300,000 mostly part-time volunteers. There has perhaps been a degree of duplication, and, I hope, when the review is carried out, it will have an effect.

Basically, we do not find the terms of \"The Scottish Compact\" acceptable. We feel that there is a degree of interference in the work of the charitable sector. Why do people become volunteers? They do so for many reasons. As Lloyd Quinan said, it is a diverse sector. The main reason is that they want to put something into society. They often wish to direct their input along a fairly restricted ambit. That being the case, we should let them do so. We should not in any way inhibit them from doing what they want to do. I strongly submit that when we formalise something, as has been done in the compact, we run that very risk.

I dealt earlier with sensitivity on that matter. It is important to realise that the voluntary sector feels itself becoming more and more put upon. The blame for that does not lie exclusively with the present Administration—I am pleased to acknowledge that—but we are, as a society, looking more and more to the voluntary sector to do things which would probably, some years ago,

have been the remit of local or central Government. We have to examine that situation and recognise that we are asking the voluntary sector to do things that we would, some time ago, have had to do ourselves. Therefore, we do not want to upset voluntary organisations in any way.

To accuse the Minister for Communities of control freakism or Big Brotherism would be over the top, and I would never wish to be that. However, it is important that the independence of the sector is recognised, thus enabling it to be more in touch with communities generally, and with what requires to be done.

Voluntary organisations require independence to achieve their aims and to react to local needs. Many members have spoken about various bodies, for example, in Dundee and Coatbridge—I confess I am intrigued by the idea of the centenarian baker from Coatbridge who had such input despite her advanced age. Those bodies know what is good for their communities; they do not require the Scottish Parliament or Westminster, or even the local authority, to tell them what is best.

\"The Scottish Compact\" contains the implied threat—I put it no more strongly than that—that funding will be arranged and diverted along certain channels. That must be a matter of some concern. The voluntary sector must, to some extent, put its own house in order. I dealt earlier with the need for performance review. There is definitely a need for consolidation among some organisations, a number of which do the same job. That point is dealt with in \"The Scottish Compact\".

The majority of people in voluntary sector organisations must be allowed the independence of movement, thought and activity that would enable them to perform the task to which they were appointed, democratically, by their membership set-up. That applies whether the organisation comprises three or four people in a rural village or is an inner-city drug charity.

My message to the Government is quite blunt: it should butt out of this sort of situation and allow the voluntary sector to carry on with what it has been doing for years with a great degree of success. The Government cannot involve itself too closely with such activities; to do so would have a stifling and inhibiting effect. In the end, we would all be the losers.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C710424", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 192.0, "ContributionID": 710424, "EditedText": "No, Lloyd—you have had your chance. Why offer Scottish voluntary organisations yet another independent body when what they really want after 300 years without a Parliament is to be here at the table, influencing us? What was the point of fighting to have the Parliament if we just take the debate elsewhere? Old Scotland was characterised by quango-toquango discussions. Lloyd opened the debate with the example of the very real challenges in the drugs field about which organisations we should support and how. That is a tough issue, but it is better that Susan Deacon, Angus MacKay and I are responsible to the Parliament for the decisions that we take than that a quango should make those decisions. I say to the SNP, \"Have a little faith.\" Now that we have got Scotland's Parliament, let us not marginalise ourselves by creating another quango. If the proposed quango was not about funding decisions but about development work, there would be a real risk of insult to SCVO, VDS and CVS, which speak for the sector—I am happy to let them do so.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, Lloyd—you have had your chance.

Why offer Scottish voluntary organisations yet another independent body when what they really want after 300 years without a Parliament is to be here at the table, influencing us? What was the point of fighting to have the Parliament if we just take the debate elsewhere?

Old Scotland was characterised by quango-toquango discussions. Lloyd opened the debate with the example of the very real challenges in the drugs field about which organisations we should support and how. That is a tough issue, but it is better that Susan Deacon, Angus MacKay and I are responsible to the Parliament for the decisions that we take than that a quango should make those decisions. I say to the SNP, \"Have a little faith.\" Now that we have got Scotland's Parliament, let us not marginalise ourselves by creating another quango. If the proposed quango was not about funding decisions but about development work, there would be a real risk of insult to SCVO, VDS and CVS, which speak for the sector—I am happy to let them do so.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C710436", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 216.0, "ContributionID": 710436, "EditedText": "At the beginning of this meeting, a colleague of mine raised a point of order about a press release that was issued at 9.30 am, announcing what the minister is now, hours later, announcing to the Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "At the beginning of this meeting, a colleague of mine raised a point of order about a press release that was issued at 9.30 am, announcing what the minister is now, hours later, announcing to the Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "C710432", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 208.0, "ContributionID": 710432, "EditedText": "Oh.", "EditedTextHTML": "Oh.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710433", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 210.0, "ContributionID": 710433, "EditedText": "Hold on, Minister.", "EditedTextHTML": "Hold on, Minister.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C710434", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 212.0, "ContributionID": 710434, "EditedText": "Sorry. Alex—", "EditedTextHTML": "Sorry. Alex—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C710438", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 220.0, "ContributionID": 710438, "EditedText": "The planned Scottish community investment fund will be the first national fund of its kind. It will aim to bring in £10 million from banks and from a range of private and public sector sources. It will give a major boost to community-based projects by making it easier for them to gain access to funding. It will provide working capital, the lack of which has too often stopped great projects dead in their tracks. The fund—which we hope will be operational next year—will help community-based initiatives such as food co-operatives, furniture recycling projects, child care schemes, fuel-poverty initiatives and training and employment schemes. Jackie Baillie and I visited the Bank of Scotland—the illustrious headquarters of Scottish banking—to discuss our plans. At lunch time, we visited the community café in Granton to see a project of the sort that the fund might support. The Scottish Executive is talking to leading bankers and community organisations about how to bring US-style non-profit funding flexibility. That is another example of Scotland leading Britain. It is the way of the future—Scotland's private sector, public sector and voluntary sector working together. The new Parliament and the new Executive are acting as catalysts for change throughout Scotland. They are then standing back to let people in Scotland take the ideas forward. The new fund will help Scottish communities to help themselves. It will support the practical measures to build bridges to get people out of poverty throughout Scotland. We know that, too often, community organisations have faced problems in accessing capital. We will help to fix that by using what will be created by the Executive in conjunction with the private sector. That is an exciting proposal and I hope that it will attract widespread support. I encourage all areas of Scottish life to contribute to it. Let me finish by saying that we must remember why we have these discussions—it is about trying to involve all areas of Scotland's life in making life better for the people of Scotland. One in two Scots give of their time for voluntary activities; we are going to help them to achieve more for their fellow Scots and for their communities. I urge members to support the motion and to reject the amendments.", "EditedTextHTML": "The planned Scottish community investment fund will be the first national fund of its kind. It will aim to bring in £10 million from banks and from a range of private and public sector sources. It will give a major boost to community-based projects by making it easier for them to gain access to funding. It will provide working capital, the lack of which has too often stopped great projects dead in their tracks. The fund—which we hope will be operational next year—will help community-based initiatives such as food co-operatives, furniture recycling projects, child care schemes, fuel-poverty initiatives and training and employment schemes.

Jackie Baillie and I visited the Bank of Scotland—the illustrious headquarters of Scottish banking—to discuss our plans. At lunch time, we visited the community café in Granton to see a project of the sort that the fund might support. The Scottish Executive is talking to leading bankers and community organisations about how to bring US-style non-profit funding flexibility. That is another example of Scotland leading Britain. It is the way of the future—Scotland's private sector, public sector and voluntary sector working together.

The new Parliament and the new Executive are acting as catalysts for change throughout Scotland. They are then standing back to let people in Scotland take the ideas forward. The new fund will help Scottish communities to help themselves. It will support the practical measures to build bridges to get people out of poverty throughout Scotland.

We know that, too often, community organisations have faced problems in accessing capital. We will help to fix that by using what will be created by the Executive in conjunction with the private sector. That is an exciting proposal and I hope that it will attract widespread support. I encourage all areas of Scottish life to contribute to it.

Let me finish by saying that we must remember why we have these discussions—it is about trying to involve all areas of Scotland's life in making life better for the people of Scotland. One in two Scots give of their time for voluntary activities; we are going to help them to achieve more for their fellow Scots and for their communities. I urge members to support the motion and to reject the amendments.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710441", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26985, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 225.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 225.0, "ID": 26985, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 226.0, "ContributionID": 710441, "EditedText": "Before we come to decision time, I must announce a correction to the result of the vote last Thursday on amendment S1M-230.2 on European structural funds. Because of a technical fault, a member's vote was not recorded; the amended result is that there were 30 votes for the amendment, 73 votes against it and one abstention. There are four questions to be put as a result of today's business. The first question is that amendment S1M-240.1, in the name of Mr Alex Salmond, which seeks to amend motion S1M-240, in the name of Ms Wendy Alexander, on the Scottish Executive's compact with the voluntary sector, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "

Before we come to decision time, I must announce a correction to the result of the vote last Thursday on amendment S1M-230.2 on European structural funds. Because of a technical fault, a member's vote was not recorded; the amended result is that there were 30 votes for the amendment, 73 votes against it and one abstention.

There are four questions to be put as a result of today's business. The first question is that amendment S1M-240.1, in the name of Mr Alex Salmond, which seeks to amend motion S1M-240, in the name of Ms Wendy Alexander, on the Scottish Executive's compact with the voluntary sector, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710457", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26985, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 225.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 225.0, "ID": 26985, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 252.0, "ContributionID": 710457, "EditedText": "That concludes decision time.", "EditedTextHTML": "That concludes decision time.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "C710444", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26985, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 225.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 225.0, "ID": 26985, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 232.0, "ContributionID": 710444, "EditedText": "FOR Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)AGAINST Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)(LD)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)

AGAINST

Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)
(LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "C710448", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26985, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 225.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 225.0, "ID": 26985, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 238.0, "ContributionID": 710448, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710449", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26985, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 225.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 225.0, "ID": 26985, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 240.0, "ContributionID": 710449, "EditedText": "In that case, there will be a division.", "EditedTextHTML": "In that case, there will be a division.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "C710450", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26985, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 225.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 225.0, "ID": 26985, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 242.0, "ContributionID": 710450, "EditedText": "FOR Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)AGAINST Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)(LD)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)

AGAINST

Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)
(LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710453", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26985, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 225.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 225.0, "ID": 26985, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 246.0, "ContributionID": 710453, "EditedText": "The third question is, that motion S1M-240, in the name of Ms Wendy Alexander, on the Scottish Executive's compact with the voluntary sector, be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "The third question is, that motion S1M-240, in the name of Ms Wendy Alexander, on the Scottish Executive's compact with the voluntary sector, be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "C710454", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26985, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 225.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 225.0, "ID": 26985, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 248.0, "ContributionID": 710454, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710458", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "North Ayrshire (Unemployment)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26986, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 254.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 254.0, "ID": 26986, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 255.0, "ContributionID": 710458, "EditedText": "We now move to members' business. The debate on S1M-208, in the name of Michael Russell, on unemployment in North Ayrshire, will last 30 minutes. Interruption. I ask members to leave quietly to allow Michael Russell to introduce his debate.", "EditedTextHTML": "We now move to members' business. The debate on S1M-208, in the name of Michael Russell, on unemployment in North Ayrshire, will last 30 minutes. [Interruption.] I ask members to leave quietly to allow Michael Russell to introduce his debate.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "C710459", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "North Ayrshire (Unemployment)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26986, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 254.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 254.0, "ID": 26986, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 257.0, "ContributionID": 710459, "EditedText": "Motion debated,", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion debated,

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1901E57P277C710462", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "North Ayrshire (Unemployment)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26986, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 254.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 254.0, "ID": 26986, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Allan", "ID": 1901, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Cunninghame North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Allan Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Allan Wilson (Cunninghame North) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 263.0, "ContributionID": 710462, "EditedText": "I welcome the opportunity that has been afforded by the motion to debate again what I consider—along with Mike Russell—to be one of the most important issues that faces the Parliament. I thank him for choosing the subject for members' business. I would like to be positive, to look to the future, and to look to the good work that is being done to address the unemployment problem. I distance myself in part from some of the references that Mike made to the council, which is an important partner in that process. I do not think that it was helpful for Mike, in making his point, to quote as an official statistic a reference from The Observer, which chose four indicators out of 60. I apologise to Nicol Stephen and to others who were present last week when we debated regional selective assistance in general and the priority plus scheme in particular, but the correlation between the motions of last week and this week will not be lost on the minister or those members. This is not a single transferable speech, but I will briefly reiterate the plea that I made last week. RSA probably remains the single most important incentive available to companies that wish to set up or consolidate in North Ayrshire. We want the scheme to be applied flexibly in North Ayrshire and, in particular, we want the additional advantages of the priority plus scheme to be marketed forcibly to make more people aware of the opportunities that exist. I would like to mention the prospect of combating the prevailing unemployment by the specific use of the scheme in conjunction with North Ayrshire Ventures, a joint venture company formed by a public-private partnership and launched recently by the minister. I made passing reference last week—and Mike has done so today—to the importance of RSA spanning the whole range of job creation activities in the eligible areas, including a call centre or fairly basic manufacturing investment. On the need for the various agencies to work in partnership to create employment, I wish to draw the minister's attention to what Mike and others have referred to in general terms; I want to refer to it in specific terms. In January, a company intends to start on site in Saltcoats to build a 10,000 sq ft office that is aimed at the call centre market. North Ayrshire has not been especially successful in attracting call centre jobs so far. However, the council, working through the joint venture company, in partnership with James Watt College, and allied to RSA priority and a strident marketing campaign by the Executive and Enterprise Ayrshire, stands a fair chance of success. As Mike mentioned, I think, and as I know others will mention, the involvement of James Watt College and the opening of its campus in Kilwinning add a new dimension to overcoming some of the structural problems that have been mentioned, problems that have beset North Ayrshire for years and left it adrift. Unemployment in the area has been 4 per cent above the national average for the best part of 20 years. The absence of a further or higher education college has been a barrier not only to companies that are relocating their manufacturing base, but to the creation of a knowledge economy for the future. That is now being addressed, which augurs well for the future. To let others have their say, I will conclude by concurring with much of what has been said about the problems to be addressed. I concur with what others, including my colleague Irene Oldfather, have said before about improving our competitive edge in the job creation market by improving the infrastructure, especially the transport infrastructure, which is an obvious shortcoming, and by improving the local environment, making North Ayrshire a more attractive place in which to live and work. We must also encourage Government agencies, when they are relocating or diversifying, to do so where I live and work, in North Ayrshire.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the opportunity that has been afforded by the motion to debate again what I consider—along with Mike Russell—to be one of the most important issues that faces the Parliament. I thank him for choosing the subject for members' business.

I would like to be positive, to look to the future, and to look to the good work that is being done to address the unemployment problem. I distance myself in part from some of the references that Mike made to the council, which is an important partner in that process. I do not think that it was helpful for Mike, in making his point, to quote as an official statistic a reference from The Observer, which chose four indicators out of 60.

I apologise to Nicol Stephen and to others who were present last week when we debated regional selective assistance in general and the priority plus scheme in particular, but the correlation between the motions of last week and this week will not be lost on the minister or those members. This is not a single transferable speech, but I will briefly reiterate the plea that I made last week. RSA probably remains the single most important incentive available to companies that wish to set up or consolidate in North Ayrshire. We want the scheme to be applied flexibly in North Ayrshire and, in particular, we want the additional advantages of the priority plus scheme to be marketed forcibly to make more people aware of the opportunities that exist.

I would like to mention the prospect of combating the prevailing unemployment by the specific use of the scheme in conjunction with North Ayrshire Ventures, a joint venture company formed by a public-private partnership and launched recently by the minister.

I made passing reference last week—and Mike has done so today—to the importance of RSA spanning the whole range of job creation activities in the eligible areas, including a call centre or fairly basic manufacturing investment. On the need for

the various agencies to work in partnership to create employment, I wish to draw the minister's attention to what Mike and others have referred to in general terms; I want to refer to it in specific terms. In January, a company intends to start on site in Saltcoats to build a 10,000 sq ft office that is aimed at the call centre market. North Ayrshire has not been especially successful in attracting call centre jobs so far. However, the council, working through the joint venture company, in partnership with James Watt College, and allied to RSA priority and a strident marketing campaign by the Executive and Enterprise Ayrshire, stands a fair chance of success.

As Mike mentioned, I think, and as I know others will mention, the involvement of James Watt College and the opening of its campus in Kilwinning add a new dimension to overcoming some of the structural problems that have been mentioned, problems that have beset North Ayrshire for years and left it adrift. Unemployment in the area has been 4 per cent above the national average for the best part of 20 years. The absence of a further or higher education college has been a barrier not only to companies that are relocating their manufacturing base, but to the creation of a knowledge economy for the future. That is now being addressed, which augurs well for the future.

To let others have their say, I will conclude by concurring with much of what has been said about the problems to be addressed. I concur with what others, including my colleague Irene Oldfather, have said before about improving our competitive edge in the job creation market by improving the infrastructure, especially the transport infrastructure, which is an obvious shortcoming, and by improving the local environment, making North Ayrshire a more attractive place in which to live and work. We must also encourage Government agencies, when they are relocating or diversifying, to do so where I live and work, in North Ayrshire.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C710461", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "North Ayrshire (Unemployment)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26986, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 254.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 254.0, "ID": 26986, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell (South of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 260.0, "ContributionID": 710461, "EditedText": "I could speak in a raised voice until members have left, but I will not do so. I am grateful for the opportunity to raise my concerns about the problems of unemployment in North Ayrshire. The sponsoring of a debate such as this, however, is a mixed blessing. I was alarmed, not to say frightened, to receive in the post today an envelope that was franked with the words \"Beattie Media\". I opened the envelope in the presence of a number of witnesses whose names and addresses have been provided to the Standards Committee. Inside the envelope was a press release about Enterprise Ayrshire's involvement in the Investors in People awards. On the basis of that press release, I have a word of advice for businesses and organisations in North Ayrshire: they should not put their trust in spin and Beattie Media. The fourth paragraph says: \"ALERT has joined the x (fill in number here) organisations in Ayrshire that have achieved investors in people status\". That shows us Beattie Media at its best.It tells us something about the state of public bodies in Ayrshire that many of them rely on spin, not substance, in tackling the issue of unemployment. Unemployment is a human issue, not an abstract issue or a matter of statistics or press releases. There are families in North Ayrshire today who, by the end of the week, will have discovered that their breadwinner no longer has a job and who will be facing the immediate future and Christmas without any money. That is the reality of unemployment. This Parliament has to address the real issues, not spin and hype. The reality in North Ayrshire does not make pleasant reading. A huge number of problems faces the economy of the area. The jobs base is declining with the decline of traditional manufacturing industries. Official sources confirm that. The demise of Irvine's new town status has left unresolved economic problems. There is an underdeveloped service sector. There is below- average participation in self-employment and start-up businesses. There is underperformance in the attainment of educational qualifications. The skills training that is available is skewed towards lower- skilled occupations. Of the 12 major local enterprise companies in Scotland, the one in Ayrshire fared second worst in terms of job losses between 1991 and 1996, and the situation has got worse. As the motion states, unemployment in North Ayrshire is the second worst in Scotland. Although Scotland's employment levels are gradually rising, unemployment for the whole of Ayrshire is expected to fall by 1 per cent, and the situation in North Ayrshire is worse than that. Compared with the Scottish economy as a whole, North Ayrshire is under-represented in service industries and financial services—two big growth areas, internationally—and in tourism, particularly high- value tourism. Although there was a modest national rise in VAT business registrations between 1994 and 1997, in North Ayrshire the figure fell by 4 per cent and there has been virtually no growth in the number of self-employed workers in the area. At the end of 1998, North Ayrshire was the third worst area in Scotland for unemployment; it is now the second worst. The gap between the employment figures in North Ayrshire and those in Scotland as a whole has worsened in the past year. There is only one strategic site for incoming investment in North Ayrshire—Riverside: a site that has had some problems. Those are huge structural problems to contend with, and the day-to-day difficulties are even worse. Members who are present know what those difficulties are, but I shall recite one or two of them. Since January, there has been the threat of 450 job losses at Volvo. I say with no pleasure that the cynical way in which promises were made to Volvo workers up to 6 May, by the Labour Government, and the lack of action thereafter are a ringing condemnation of previous ministers, if not of present ones. Jobs have been lost at the Caledonian Paper mill. There have been job losses in Beith and Irvine. Jobs have been lost all over North Ayrshire, and it is a continuing process. We must find the right method to move forward. This Parliament is often criticised by people who say that it should not being doing this and it should not be doing that. The one thing that people always say that this Parliament should be doing is finding ways in which jobs can be secured; finding ways in which human dignity can be restored; finding ways in which there can be hope. Unemployment in North Ayrshire is a central problem for this Parliament, as is unemployment in every part of Scotland. We must be positive and encourage people to work together. We must also create the right image for areas that want to grow. That is the subject of a great deal of work. The image of North Ayrshire has not been helped by the front-page story in the local paper last week, which detailed an incident in which one councillor attempted to assault another at a trades dinner. That type of image does not attract anyone. The trouble with North Ayrshire Council is that its image has not encouraged people to come and invest in North Ayrshire. That is not the sole problem. There are problems of transport infrastructure. In the roads review, tomorrow, we must push for investment in the roads infrastructure in North Ayrshire. I have a terrible feeling that we will be disappointed, but we must encourage that investment and look for action by the key players. Who are the key players? North Ayrshire Council. I am grateful to it for providing information for the debate. I have received some interesting, if rather defensive, information from it. There are good people in North Ayrshire Council, who are trying to attract employers. Unfortunately, their work is hindered by the history of unemployment in the area and by the history of a council that lacks ambition—it is the second worst council in Scotland, according to official figures. There must be action from the Scottish Executive. In spite of the image of Lord Macdonald of Tradeston—when he was responsible for employment—and that other professional mummer for jobs in Scotland, Brian Wilson, constantly wringing their hands over unemployment, nothing was done by the previous Administration. I look forward to Nicol Stephen telling us today of things that will be done. I would have been delighted if he had leaked that information to the press before the debate—he must be the only minister who has not done so. Let us have an announcement on action. In this Parliament, what can we do? We can come forward with ideas—and there are many ideas. We can lodge motions to back up those ideas and we can, as members of this Parliament, with honest intention say, \"This is not good enough.\" We can put the spotlight on the failure to achieve in North Ayrshire and we can encourage the relevant bodies to do so. Following today's debate, I would like there to be another summit in North Ayrshire, which would involve all the MSPs, all the relevant ministers and all the organisations in drawing up an agenda and an action plan for employment in North Ayrshire. If we start that process—if we try to work together—we can make a difference. However, there will be an awful price to pay if we do not make a difference. The statistic that North Ayrshire is the second worst area for unemployment in Scotland is, as I said at the start of the debate, much more than a statistic: it is an indication of human suffering. More than three people are chasing every job in North Ayrshire. On present projections, that can only get worse. If this Parliament does not take it upon itself to force the issue forward, people will suffer in North Ayrshire year on year, and this Parliament will have let them down.", "EditedTextHTML": "I could speak in a raised voice until members have left, but I will not do so.

I am grateful for the opportunity to raise my concerns about the problems of unemployment in North Ayrshire. The sponsoring of a debate such as this, however, is a mixed blessing. I was alarmed, not to say frightened, to receive in the post today an envelope that was franked with the words \"Beattie Media\". I opened the envelope in the presence of a number of witnesses whose names and addresses have been provided to the Standards Committee.

Inside the envelope was a press release about Enterprise Ayrshire's involvement in the Investors in People awards. On the basis of that press release, I have a word of advice for businesses and organisations in North Ayrshire: they should not put their trust in spin and Beattie Media. The fourth paragraph says:

\"ALERT has joined the x (fill in number here) organisations in Ayrshire that have achieved investors in people status\".

That shows us Beattie Media at its best.

It tells us something about the state of public bodies in Ayrshire that many of them rely on spin, not substance, in tackling the issue of unemployment. Unemployment is a human issue, not an abstract issue or a matter of statistics or press releases. There are families in North Ayrshire today who, by the end of the week, will have discovered that their breadwinner no longer has a job and who will be facing the immediate future and Christmas without any money. That is the reality of unemployment. This Parliament has to address the real issues, not spin and hype.

The reality in North Ayrshire does not make pleasant reading. A huge number of problems faces the economy of the area. The jobs base is declining with the decline of traditional manufacturing industries. Official sources confirm that. The demise of Irvine's new town status has left unresolved economic problems. There is an underdeveloped service sector. There is below- average participation in self-employment and start-up businesses. There is underperformance in the attainment of educational qualifications. The skills training that is available is skewed towards lower- skilled occupations. Of the 12 major local enterprise companies in Scotland, the one in Ayrshire fared second worst in terms of job losses between 1991 and 1996, and the situation has got worse.

As the motion states, unemployment in North Ayrshire is the second worst in Scotland. Although Scotland's employment levels are gradually rising, unemployment for the whole of Ayrshire is expected to fall by 1 per cent, and the situation in North Ayrshire is worse than that. Compared with the Scottish economy as a whole, North Ayrshire is under-represented in service industries and financial services—two big growth areas, internationally—and in tourism, particularly high- value tourism.

Although there was a modest national rise in VAT business registrations between 1994 and 1997, in North Ayrshire the figure fell by 4 per cent and there has been virtually no growth in the number of self-employed workers in the area. At the end of 1998, North Ayrshire was the third worst area in Scotland for unemployment; it is now the second worst. The gap between the employment figures in North Ayrshire and those in Scotland as a whole has worsened in the past year. There is only one strategic site for incoming investment in North Ayrshire—Riverside: a site that has had some problems.

Those are huge structural problems to contend with, and the day-to-day difficulties are even worse. Members who are present know what those difficulties are, but I shall recite one or two of them. Since January, there has been the threat of 450 job losses at Volvo. I say with no pleasure that the cynical way in which promises were made to Volvo workers up to 6 May, by the Labour Government, and the lack of action thereafter are a ringing condemnation of previous ministers, if not of present ones. Jobs have been lost at the Caledonian Paper mill. There have been job losses in Beith and Irvine. Jobs have been lost all over North Ayrshire, and it is a continuing process.

We must find the right method to move forward. This Parliament is often criticised by people who say that it should not being doing this and it should not be doing that. The one thing that people always say that this Parliament should be doing is finding ways in which jobs can be secured; finding

ways in which human dignity can be restored; finding ways in which there can be hope. Unemployment in North Ayrshire is a central problem for this Parliament, as is unemployment in every part of Scotland. We must be positive and encourage people to work together.

We must also create the right image for areas that want to grow. That is the subject of a great deal of work. The image of North Ayrshire has not been helped by the front-page story in the local paper last week, which detailed an incident in which one councillor attempted to assault another at a trades dinner. That type of image does not attract anyone. The trouble with North Ayrshire Council is that its image has not encouraged people to come and invest in North Ayrshire.

That is not the sole problem. There are problems of transport infrastructure. In the roads review, tomorrow, we must push for investment in the roads infrastructure in North Ayrshire. I have a terrible feeling that we will be disappointed, but we must encourage that investment and look for action by the key players. Who are the key players? North Ayrshire Council. I am grateful to it for providing information for the debate. I have received some interesting, if rather defensive, information from it. There are good people in North Ayrshire Council, who are trying to attract employers. Unfortunately, their work is hindered by the history of unemployment in the area and by the history of a council that lacks ambition—it is the second worst council in Scotland, according to official figures.

There must be action from the Scottish Executive. In spite of the image of Lord Macdonald of Tradeston—when he was responsible for employment—and that other professional mummer for jobs in Scotland, Brian Wilson, constantly wringing their hands over unemployment, nothing was done by the previous Administration. I look forward to Nicol Stephen telling us today of things that will be done. I would have been delighted if he had leaked that information to the press before the debate—he must be the only minister who has not done so. Let us have an announcement on action.

In this Parliament, what can we do? We can come forward with ideas—and there are many ideas. We can lodge motions to back up those ideas and we can, as members of this Parliament, with honest intention say, \"This is not good enough.\" We can put the spotlight on the failure to achieve in North Ayrshire and we can encourage the relevant bodies to do so. Following today's debate, I would like there to be another summit in North Ayrshire, which would involve all the MSPs, all the relevant ministers and all the organisations in drawing up an agenda and an action plan for employment in North Ayrshire. If we start that process—if we try to work together—we can make a difference. However, there will be an awful price to pay if we do not make a difference.

The statistic that North Ayrshire is the second worst area for unemployment in Scotland is, as I said at the start of the debate, much more than a statistic: it is an indication of human suffering. More than three people are chasing every job in North Ayrshire. On present projections, that can only get worse. If this Parliament does not take it upon itself to force the issue forward, people will suffer in North Ayrshire year on year, and this Parliament will have let them down.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C710466", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "North Ayrshire (Unemployment)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26986, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 254.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 254.0, "ID": 26986, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 273.0, "ContributionID": 710466, "EditedText": "I move,That the debate be extended by 15 minutes.", "EditedTextHTML": "I move,

That the debate be extended by 15 minutes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C710470", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "North Ayrshire (Unemployment)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26986, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 254.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 254.0, "ID": 26986, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 281.0, "ContributionID": 710470, "EditedText": "I am interested in the vote Ms Oldfather mentioned. I am unaware that any such vote was held. Can Ms Oldfather produce a record of it? Ms Oldfather is being disingenuous, because she knows that I offered my personal support and said that I was prepared to differ with my party on that issue. I hope that she regrets what she said.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am interested in the vote Ms Oldfather mentioned. I am unaware that any such

vote was held. Can Ms Oldfather produce a record of it? Ms Oldfather is being disingenuous, because she knows that I offered my personal support and said that I was prepared to differ with my party on that issue. I hope that she regrets what she said.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1782E69P279C710471", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "North Ayrshire (Unemployment)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26986, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 254.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 254.0, "ID": 26986, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Oldfather, Irene", "ID": 1782, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Cunninghame South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Irene Oldfather", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Oldfather: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 283.0, "ContributionID": 710471, "EditedText": "I am sorry, Mr Russell, but I have no letter from you. I received letters from your colleagues saying that they could not support the siting of the agency in North Ayrshire.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry, Mr Russell, but I have no letter from you. I received letters from your colleagues saying that they could not support the siting of the agency in North Ayrshire.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2154E194P299C710482", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "North Ayrshire (Unemployment)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26986, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 254.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 254.0, "ID": 26986, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stephen, Nicol", "ID": 2154, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Nicol Stephen", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicol Stephen: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 307.0, "ContributionID": 710482, "EditedText": "I was there when that issue was discussed. The bringing together of MPs and MSPs and those involved in all aspects of economic development in Ayrshire was mentioned. It was indicated at the forum that that should be done at least once a year. One of the problems is the number of MSPs and MPs who would have an interest in attending the forum. I recall that the total was more than 40. Everyone should be involved and, I believe, will be. An inclusive approach is the right one. Already the councils, Enterprise Ayrshire, the Scottish Executive, Ayrshire chamber of commerce and industry, MSPs and MPs are involved. The Ayrshire strategy for jobs was launched in March. An additional £2.7 million was given to the local enterprise company to assist with its implementation. North Ayrshire is starting to benefit from the activities of the forum, but more must be done. Allan Wilson mentioned a good example, North Ayrshire Ventures Ltd, which was launched by Henry McLeish. It is a joint venture between North Ayrshire Council and the EDI Group. More than £500,000 of European funding has been allocated to that project, along with an investment of £250,000 from EDI. Work will begin in January to convert a council building in Saltcoats for a speculative call centre development. That is the sort of initiative that is starting to emerge. More like it are needed. The LEC has a crucial role in leading the way. Enterprise Ayrshire is also promoting the right physical environment to attract jobs. For example, at Riverside business park, where there has been major investment already, works will be going on to improve road access and upgrade the power supply to the site. That is a significant investment in North Ayrshire. We must do more to encourage exporting. A great number of excellent manufacturing companies are in North Ayrshire, but more needs to be done. Companies such as Anotek and Electroconnect, both based in Irvine, are examples of companies taking up this challenge. The Executive recognises the importance of good transport infrastructure to economic development. The review, which has been referred to, is considering which schemes will go ahead. Two are important to the Ayrshire area—the upgrading of the A77 to motorway standard and the proposed bypass of Ardrossan, Saltcoats and Stevenston on the A78. I am pleased to announce that, tomorrow, my colleague, Sarah Boyack, will report to Parliament on the outcome of the review. Unfortunately, I cannot anticipate her speech. There is a clear and continuing need for investment to secure jobs in North Ayrshire through the regional selective assistance scheme. The assisted areas map still covers 86 per cent of the area's population and the objective 2 map covers 85 per cent. When I asked for some statistics, I was told that, over the past three financial years, offers of RSA of £28.9 million have been accepted in North Ayrshire, helping to create or safeguard 3,040 jobs. Based on historic RSA spend, well over 90 per cent of the RSA claims that were made over the past six years could still be made under the new RSA map. The situation at Volvo is difficult. The Executive is determined to secure the best possible outcome for the work force and has been working hard on that with Locate in Scotland and the Ayrshire economic forum. While we remain optimistic, we have pressed Volvo and all involved to ensure that an announcement is made as soon as possible, although it is up to the company to decide when such matters can be disclosed. Until that stage, Volvo has made it clear that it wishes the discussions and negotiations to remain confidential, which the Executive respects. There is to be a new Kilwinning college, for which a £9.5 million contract was signed in March of this year. The college will open in time for the 2000-01 academic year, with up to 900 students per day. That is another positive step forward. There are real, new prospects of inward investment in North Ayrshire. I am not able to make an announcement today, as such issues remain confidential, but there is clear investor interest in the area, which is perhaps the most important note on which to conclude. The local economy in North Ayrshire is going through major structural change. We do not have instant or quick fixes, but a great deal is going on to secure not only the short-term but, more important, the medium and long-term strengths of the North Ayrshire economy. We must meet that challenge through many different types of action and we must do so in partnership. North Ayrshire needs a joined-up approach and imaginative, innovative and creative thinking over the coming years to tackle its economic challenges. The Scottish Executive and, I am sure, all members of the Scottish Parliament are determined to rise to those challenges to turn around the current problems in the North Ayrshire economy.", "EditedTextHTML": "I was there when that issue was discussed. The bringing together of MPs and MSPs and those involved in all aspects of economic development in Ayrshire was mentioned. It was indicated at the forum that that should be done at least once a year. One of the problems is the number of MSPs and MPs who would have an interest in attending the forum. I recall that the total was more than 40.

Everyone should be involved and, I believe, will be. An inclusive approach is the right one. Already the councils, Enterprise Ayrshire, the Scottish Executive, Ayrshire chamber of commerce and industry, MSPs and MPs are involved. The Ayrshire strategy for jobs was launched in March. An additional £2.7 million was given to the local enterprise company to assist with its implementation. North Ayrshire is starting to benefit from the activities of the forum, but more must be done.

Allan Wilson mentioned a good example, North Ayrshire Ventures Ltd, which was launched by Henry McLeish. It is a joint venture between North Ayrshire Council and the EDI Group. More than £500,000 of European funding has been allocated to that project, along with an investment of £250,000 from EDI. Work will begin in January to convert a council building in Saltcoats for a speculative call centre development. That is the sort of initiative that is starting to emerge. More like it are needed.

The LEC has a crucial role in leading the way. Enterprise Ayrshire is also promoting the right physical environment to attract jobs. For example, at Riverside business park, where there has been major investment already, works will be going on to improve road access and upgrade the power supply to the site. That is a significant investment in North Ayrshire.

We must do more to encourage exporting. A great number of excellent manufacturing companies are in North Ayrshire, but more needs to be done. Companies such as Anotek and Electroconnect, both based in Irvine, are examples of companies taking up this challenge.

The Executive recognises the importance of good transport infrastructure to economic development. The review, which has been referred

to, is considering which schemes will go ahead. Two are important to the Ayrshire area—the upgrading of the A77 to motorway standard and the proposed bypass of Ardrossan, Saltcoats and Stevenston on the A78.

I am pleased to announce that, tomorrow, my colleague, Sarah Boyack, will report to Parliament on the outcome of the review. Unfortunately, I cannot anticipate her speech. There is a clear and continuing need for investment to secure jobs in North Ayrshire through the regional selective assistance scheme.

The assisted areas map still covers 86 per cent of the area's population and the objective 2 map covers 85 per cent. When I asked for some statistics, I was told that, over the past three financial years, offers of RSA of £28.9 million have been accepted in North Ayrshire, helping to create or safeguard 3,040 jobs. Based on historic RSA spend, well over 90 per cent of the RSA claims that were made over the past six years could still be made under the new RSA map.

The situation at Volvo is difficult. The Executive is determined to secure the best possible outcome for the work force and has been working hard on that with Locate in Scotland and the Ayrshire economic forum. While we remain optimistic, we have pressed Volvo and all involved to ensure that an announcement is made as soon as possible, although it is up to the company to decide when such matters can be disclosed. Until that stage, Volvo has made it clear that it wishes the discussions and negotiations to remain confidential, which the Executive respects.

There is to be a new Kilwinning college, for which a £9.5 million contract was signed in March of this year. The college will open in time for the 2000-01 academic year, with up to 900 students per day. That is another positive step forward.

There are real, new prospects of inward investment in North Ayrshire. I am not able to make an announcement today, as such issues remain confidential, but there is clear investor interest in the area, which is perhaps the most important note on which to conclude.

The local economy in North Ayrshire is going through major structural change. We do not have instant or quick fixes, but a great deal is going on to secure not only the short-term but, more important, the medium and long-term strengths of the North Ayrshire economy. We must meet that challenge through many different types of action and we must do so in partnership.

North Ayrshire needs a joined-up approach and imaginative, innovative and creative thinking over the coming years to tackle its economic challenges. The Scottish Executive and, I am sure, all members of the Scottish Parliament are determined to rise to those challenges to turn around the current problems in the North Ayrshire economy.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C710483", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "North Ayrshire (Unemployment)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26986, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 254.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 254.0, "ID": 26986, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 309.0, "ContributionID": 710483, "EditedText": "As I close this evening's meeting, I wish to thank members, visitors and the staff of the Parliament for waiting behind so late.", "EditedTextHTML": "As I close this evening's meeting, I wish to thank members, visitors and the staff of the Parliament for waiting behind so late.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1783E59P270C710353", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Baillie, Jackie", "ID": 1783, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumbarton" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Jackie Baillie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Jackie Baillie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 30.0, "ContributionID": 710353, "EditedText": "No, I intend to carry on. I was at the point of sharing with members some of the emerging conclusions of the review. In fairness to the work of the CVS network, it is important that I put these comments on record. I said that the interim consultants report recognised the passion and commitment that is common across the CVS network. Its recommendations include the development of the role of the CVS, refocusing their activity to promote and support capacity building in the community. It also recommends reorganisation, where appropriate, along community planning boundaries on a federal or confederal basis; developing a shared funding approach that brings together the Scottish Executive and a range of key agencies; and the possibility of developing a wide- ranging training programme for staff and volunteer managers of the CVS and other agencies. The review made proposals that should enable the network to build the capacity of the sector and of the local community and to work with local social inclusion agencies to develop their agenda. A further report on performance management will be available at the end of November, and I have asked the consultants to do some further modelling on funding arrangements by the end of the year. These recommendations will be considered in detail, and I will bring back the conclusions to Parliament for discussion. Let me turn now to charity law, as it is of key importance to the voluntary sector and to charities that we get right the legal framework in which they operate. I will give members a little background. Charities that operate in Scotland are regulated under a number of pieces of statute that have been in operation for some time. The main provisions are in part I of the Law Reform (Miscellaneous Provisions) (Scotland) Act 1990. Public charitable collections are regulated under section 119 of the Civic Government (Scotland) Act 1982, and educational endowments are governed by the Education (Scotland) Act 1980. Aside from the plethora of acts, there is a need to assess the effectiveness of the present legislation. Members will be aware of the work of the charity law research unit at the University of Dundee, which has been researching and examining the effectiveness of the existing legislation. The research has been completed and the unit is close to providing the Scottish Executive with a final report. We are already aware of the key themes and likely recommendations of the Dundee research. We have also been in close touch with the voluntary sector. We feel confident that now is the time to start setting up the mechanisms to meet this partnership's commitment to the voluntary sector. Therefore, I am delighted to announce today the establishment of an independent commission to review and reform charity law in Scotland.Although the Dundee research will be a key tool for the commission, its starting point was the existing legislation. We need to move forward. The voluntary sector and charities are changing. Their contribution to the social economy accounts for 5 per cent of gross domestic product and the sector employs 100,000 people. The commission will need to address that and other issues, such as setting the right level of accountability to the donating public without placing too heavy a burden on the charitable sector. Charities also require definitive advice and information and the commission will want to examine how best that might be done. In due course, I will make a further announcement to Parliament setting out the chair and membership of the commission, its detailed remit and the timetable for action. The Scottish Executive cares about the voluntary sector. The third sector is about empowering communities. That is our starting point. The sector is at the sharp end of the problems that exist in society today. Voluntary organisations work with the poor, to tackle the roots of exclusion and to empower communities to plan their own futures. Voluntary organisations frequently speak for those at the margins of society. The sector has values, which we as a Government also hold. Let us recognise the significant contribution that the voluntary sector makes to Scottish society and, today, let us set in place the foundations on which the sector can grow and flourish. I move,That the Parliament acknowledges the significant role played by the voluntary sector in service delivery, its commitment to the social economy and its growing role in policy development and in strengthening communities, and in recognition of the commitment to the voluntary sector welcomes and endorses the Scottish Compact which has been developed in partnership with the sector, as this will provide the basis for a shared understanding of the relationship and responsibilities between the Scottish Executive and the voluntary sector to their mutual benefit and serve as a firm foundation on which to build for the future.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I intend to carry on. I was at the point of sharing with members some of the emerging conclusions of the review. In fairness to the work of the CVS network, it is important that I put these comments on record.

I said that the interim consultants report recognised the passion and commitment that is common across the CVS network. Its recommendations include the development of the role of the CVS, refocusing their activity to promote and support capacity building in the community. It also recommends reorganisation, where appropriate, along community planning boundaries on a federal or confederal basis; developing a shared funding approach that brings together the Scottish Executive and a range of key agencies; and the possibility of developing a wide- ranging training programme for staff and volunteer managers of the CVS and other agencies.

The review made proposals that should enable the network to build the capacity of the sector and of the local community and to work with local social inclusion agencies to develop their agenda. A further report on performance management will be available at the end of November, and I have asked the consultants to do some further modelling on funding arrangements by the end of the year. These recommendations will be considered in detail, and I will bring back the conclusions to Parliament for discussion.

Let me turn now to charity law, as it is of key importance to the voluntary sector and to charities that we get right the legal framework in which they operate. I will give members a little background. Charities that operate in Scotland are regulated under a number of pieces of statute that have been in operation for some time. The main provisions are in part I of the Law Reform (Miscellaneous Provisions) (Scotland) Act 1990. Public charitable collections are regulated under section 119 of the Civic Government (Scotland) Act 1982, and educational endowments are governed by the Education (Scotland) Act 1980. Aside from the plethora of acts, there is a need to assess the effectiveness of the present legislation.

Members will be aware of the work of the charity law research unit at the University of Dundee, which has been researching and examining the effectiveness of the existing legislation. The research has been completed and the unit is close to providing the Scottish Executive with a final report. We are already aware of the key themes and likely recommendations of the Dundee research. We have also been in close touch with the voluntary sector. We feel confident that now is the time to start setting up the mechanisms to meet this partnership's commitment to the voluntary sector. Therefore, I am delighted to announce today the establishment of an independent commission to review and reform

charity law in Scotland.

Although the Dundee research will be a key tool for the commission, its starting point was the existing legislation. We need to move forward. The voluntary sector and charities are changing. Their contribution to the social economy accounts for 5 per cent of gross domestic product and the sector employs 100,000 people. The commission will need to address that and other issues, such as setting the right level of accountability to the donating public without placing too heavy a burden on the charitable sector. Charities also require definitive advice and information and the commission will want to examine how best that might be done.

In due course, I will make a further announcement to Parliament setting out the chair and membership of the commission, its detailed remit and the timetable for action.

The Scottish Executive cares about the voluntary sector. The third sector is about empowering communities. That is our starting point.

The sector is at the sharp end of the problems that exist in society today. Voluntary organisations work with the poor, to tackle the roots of exclusion and to empower communities to plan their own futures. Voluntary organisations frequently speak for those at the margins of society. The sector has values, which we as a Government also hold. Let us recognise the significant contribution that the voluntary sector makes to Scottish society and, today, let us set in place the foundations on which the sector can grow and flourish.

I move,

That the Parliament acknowledges the significant role played by the voluntary sector in service delivery, its commitment to the social economy and its growing role in policy development and in strengthening communities, and in recognition of the commitment to the voluntary sector welcomes and endorses the Scottish Compact which has been developed in partnership with the sector, as this will provide the basis for a shared understanding of the relationship and responsibilities between the Scottish Executive and the voluntary sector to their mutual benefit and serve as a firm foundation on which to build for the future.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:02:32.7857179+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710348", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 19.0, "ContributionID": 710348, "EditedText": "I have had a letter from Lord James Douglas-Hamilton on the issue that was addressed by those points of order. I do not know whether the subject of tolls will be included in tomorrow's statement on the roads strategy. If it were raised, I would deprecate that information being given to a newspaper before it is given to this Parliament. On the other hand, if the information came from a leak from a ministerial meeting, that is not a matter for me, it is a matter for the Executive. We will wait and see what happens tomorrow.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have had a letter from Lord James Douglas-Hamilton on the issue that was addressed by those points of order. I do not know whether the subject of tolls will be included in tomorrow's statement on the roads strategy. If it were raised, I would deprecate that information being given to a newspaper before it is given to this Parliament. On the other hand, if the information came from a leak from a ministerial meeting, that is not a matter for me, it is a matter for the Executive. We will wait and see what happens tomorrow.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4514296+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710341", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Time for Reflection", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26982, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26982, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 4.0, "ContributionID": 710341, "EditedText": "The first item of business this afternoon is our time for reflection. I have much pleasure in inviting His Eminence Thomas Cardinal Winning to lead our time for reflection.", "EditedTextHTML": "The first item of business this afternoon is our time for reflection. I have much pleasure in inviting His Eminence Thomas Cardinal Winning to lead our time for reflection.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4514296+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2112E192P495C710345", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacAskill, Kenny", "ID": 2112, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenny MacAskill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Kenny MacAskill (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 13.0, "ContributionID": 710345, "EditedText": "On a point of order.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4514296+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C710352", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 28.0, "ContributionID": 710352, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4514296+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C710355", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 36.0, "ContributionID": 710355, "EditedText": "In the main, I support the thrust of the motion. However, I feel that yet another endorsement of the Scottish compact is just a bit over the top, especially as the compact does not come into force until next year. At the moment, the statement on the compact is pretty much a statement of intent. Today is the third time in as many months that the chamber has debated these issues. While it is one thing to acknowledge and give credit to the great work that is done by the many volunteers, it is another thing for the Executive to offer little else for us to talk about—and it is yet another thing when the Executive underlines mutual benefit time and again. The high number of full-time and part-time jobs created in the sector has a recognised positive effect on employment figures. I do not underestimate in any way the importance of many of those jobs, although if I have time later I will express my concern about the extent of overlap. The voluntary sector is the fastest-growing employment area in the United Kingdom. As more and more services are provided by the voluntary sector, that trend is likely to continue. The Scottish voluntary sector, in which we all take pride, has 44,000 organisations working within it and 100,000 paid staff. It also has 300,000 regular volunteers and twice that number of occasional volunteers. The voluntary sector is the third force in the Scottish economy, with an income of some £1.8 billion. The sector is independent—to an extent— not-profit distributing and non-statutory, but it receives some 26 per cent of its income from public sector finances. That compares with 22 per cent from donations and 30 per cent that is earned from trading, rents and investments. Grants from the national lottery make up around 7 per cent of voluntary sector income. Funding is very important to the voluntary sector's independence. The minister referred to the CVS review. The Scottish Executive commissioned the Eglinton report some time ago. That report was to be produced within a short time scale—it is interesting to note that the minister has now received a first report from that source. The SCVO welcomed the review, but expressed some concerns over the short time that was available for the report to be produced. It also underlined the fact that the independence of the voluntary sector is a prerequisite to its success. Our amendment addresses that issue. I urge the minister to satisfy the voluntary sector plan and accept our amendment. When the Scottish Executive talks about partnership, there is a feeling that that involves more than an element of direction and control. As I proceed, I will express some views on why I think that that is the case, despite the fact that the minister said that it was far from her intent. The partnership between the Executive, the voluntary sector and the Scottish public must be based on respect for the voluntary sector's independence. The sector's diversity should be recognised as a strength, but care must be taken to ensure that public funding does not create overlap and a situation in which groups work with opposing objectives. I listened with interest to Lloyd Quinan's comments on drugs. I believe that it is the Scottish Executive's responsibility to give clear directions on such issues. I accept that that may mean that some organisations will be funded and that others will not. I also accept that, in the main, voluntary organisations should pursue their independent objectives, but I suggest that public sector money should not be used to fund objectives that cut across overall Government policy. Although this compact was jointly agreed by the Government and the voluntary sector, the Government's prime motivation seems to be a desire to control the sector and to target its work on Government priorities. Although there are many shared goals, the compact is likely to lead to conflict about emphasis and priorities, and to a loss of independence for the voluntary sector. The voluntary sector will be directed by Government under contract, rather than by the sector's principles of channelling help to where it is most needed. Although the voluntary sector may receive Government resources, at times it will have little control over how those resources are spent—resources will be targeted. The danger is that the voluntary sector will serve the Government's agenda.", "EditedTextHTML": "In the main, I support the thrust of the motion. However, I feel that yet another endorsement of the Scottish compact is just a bit over the top, especially as the compact does not come into force until next year. At the moment, the statement on the compact is pretty much a statement of intent.

Today is the third time in as many months that the chamber has debated these issues. While it is one thing to acknowledge and give credit to the great work that is done by the many volunteers, it is another thing for the Executive to offer little else for us to talk about—and it is yet another thing when the Executive underlines mutual benefit time and again.

The high number of full-time and part-time jobs created in the sector has a recognised positive effect on employment figures. I do not underestimate in any way the importance of many of those jobs, although if I have time later I will express my concern about the extent of overlap. The voluntary sector is the fastest-growing employment area in the United Kingdom. As more and more services are provided by the voluntary sector, that trend is likely to continue. The Scottish voluntary sector, in which we all take pride, has 44,000 organisations working within it and 100,000 paid staff. It also has 300,000 regular volunteers and twice that number of occasional volunteers.

The voluntary sector is the third force in the Scottish economy, with an income of some £1.8 billion. The sector is independent—to an extent— not-profit distributing and non-statutory, but it receives some 26 per cent of its income from public sector finances. That compares with 22 per cent from donations and 30 per cent that is earned from trading, rents and investments. Grants from the national lottery make up around 7 per cent of voluntary sector income. Funding is very important to the voluntary sector's independence.

The minister referred to the CVS review. The Scottish Executive commissioned the Eglinton report some time ago. That report was to be produced within a short time scale—it is interesting to note that the minister has now received a first report from that source. The SCVO welcomed the review, but expressed some concerns over the short time that was available for

the report to be produced. It also underlined the fact that the independence of the voluntary sector is a prerequisite to its success. Our amendment addresses that issue. I urge the minister to satisfy the voluntary sector plan and accept our amendment.

When the Scottish Executive talks about partnership, there is a feeling that that involves more than an element of direction and control. As I proceed, I will express some views on why I think that that is the case, despite the fact that the minister said that it was far from her intent. The partnership between the Executive, the voluntary sector and the Scottish public must be based on respect for the voluntary sector's independence. The sector's diversity should be recognised as a strength, but care must be taken to ensure that public funding does not create overlap and a situation in which groups work with opposing objectives.

I listened with interest to Lloyd Quinan's comments on drugs. I believe that it is the Scottish Executive's responsibility to give clear directions on such issues. I accept that that may mean that some organisations will be funded and that others will not. I also accept that, in the main, voluntary organisations should pursue their independent objectives, but I suggest that public sector money should not be used to fund objectives that cut across overall Government policy.

Although this compact was jointly agreed by the Government and the voluntary sector, the Government's prime motivation seems to be a desire to control the sector and to target its work on Government priorities. Although there are many shared goals, the compact is likely to lead to conflict about emphasis and priorities, and to a loss of independence for the voluntary sector.

The voluntary sector will be directed by Government under contract, rather than by the sector's principles of channelling help to where it is most needed. Although the voluntary sector may receive Government resources, at times it will have little control over how those resources are spent—resources will be targeted. The danger is that the voluntary sector will serve the Government's agenda.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4514296+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C710360", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 46.0, "ContributionID": 710360, "EditedText": "Phil Gallie gives tax statistics, but does he agree that the facts show that the top 20 per cent in our society now pay less in tax than the bottom 20 per cent do?", "EditedTextHTML": "Phil Gallie gives tax statistics, but does he agree that the facts show that the top 20 per cent in our society now pay less in tax than the bottom 20 per cent do?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4514296+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1931E120P189C710362", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Muldoon, Bristow", "ID": 1931, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Livingston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bristow Muldoon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bristow Muldoon (Livingston) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 50.0, "ContributionID": 710362, "EditedText": "Would the member remind us what VAT rates were in 1979 and what they were when the Conservatives left their period in power?", "EditedTextHTML": "Would the member remind us what VAT rates were in 1979 and what they were when the Conservatives left their period in power?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4514296+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C710375", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 77.0, "ContributionID": 710375, "EditedText": "Get to the point, Mr Raffan.", "EditedTextHTML": "Get to the point, Mr Raffan.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4514296+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1814E135P516C710380", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Fabiani, Linda", "ID": 1814, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Linda Fabiani", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Linda Fabiani (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 89.0, "ContributionID": 710380, "EditedText": "Before I was elected, I was employed in the voluntary sector. However, I have never worked for a charitable organisation and I would like to point out to the Conservative party that voluntary organisations and charities are not necessarily the same thing. In the past 17 years, I have seen at first hand the impact of Government decisions on voluntary organisations. Many of those decisions have served to reduce the independence of the sector. Like others, I welcome the publication of \"The Scottish Compact\" as the beginning of the process of re-establishing the independence of the voluntary sector. It is very important that the compact recognises the right of the voluntary sector to comment on and challenge Government policy. There has been a danger recently that the voluntary sector might go down the same road as local government and end up acting primarily as a vehicle for the delivery of Government policy. However, one of the strengths of the voluntary sector is that it provides an opportunity for many different approaches. It can accommodate organisations as diverse as Crew 2000 and Calton Athletic. Long may it continue to do so. I am especially familiar with the voluntary housing movement, within which there is a comparable diversity. Housing associations and housing co-operatives range from large national associations that are dominated by establishment figures to local community organisations that are dominated by tenants. Each model has its place and it is important that, in our desire to achieve the objectives of Parliament or the Executive, we do not damage that diversity. Make no mistake, however: even within the voluntary sector, the diversity of approaches creates tensions. At its best, it is a creative tension. Experience of work in the voluntary sector breeds respect for the contribution that even a small group of dedicated volunteers can achieve. If politicians try to colonise the sector, it will be at their peril. Effective partnership is much more productive than command and control.The compact is strong on partnership, which is to be welcomed. However, the reality is a long way from the rhetoric. In the distribution of resources, for example, too many initiatives are being launched, many of them based on wasteful competitive bidding. I am sure that many voluntary workers would echo that sentiment, none more so than those in the voluntary housing movement. The Executive should, in distributing resources, guard against practising a form of divide and conquer. The recently reported fiasco of the 21st century halls programme is a case in point. In the third round of the initiative, 93 projects were submitted for consideration and only 16 awards were made. Under that programme, approximately £300,000 to £400,000 of speculative expenditure has been made by the voluntary sector, and much effort has been wasted. Similarly, the new housing partnership programme saw housing associations waste substantial resources bidding for projects, only to see the money ring-fenced for local authority debt write-off. Before I am lambasted from across the chamber, I will make it clear that I am not criticising the decision to write off local authority debt. Indeed, it was my party's policy long before many others were able to understand the concept. If housing associations and housing co-operatives had known how few resources were to be made available to support the work that they do very successfully, many of them would have avoided wasteful expenditure and effort. It is the SNP's policy that there should be much more openness and transparency in the distribution of public resources. That applies to funding for the Arts Council and sportscotland and to the distribution of lottery funds as much as to the distribution of resources in the Scottish block. We believe that that is one of the aspirations of the Scottish Parliament. The practice of using agencies such as Scottish Homes, the Scottish Arts Council and sportscotland to distribute resources can be valuable, and it should be kept under review. To make the compact effective, the Executive must move on to implementation as quickly as possible. All departments and non-departmental public bodies must produce their plans for implementation. Those plans should be the focus for wide consultation in the voluntary sector. As noted by my colleague, Lloyd Quinan, we must not fragment the sector by creating a two-tier voluntary sector—those who have signed up to the Executive's initiative and those who have not. The SNP's amendment would go some way to ensuring that that does not happen, and I urge members to support it. Volunteering is at the heart of civic society in Scotland, and the Parliament must value and respect the contribution of those who give their time freely for the benefit of others. To paraphrase: if Parliament agrees the compact, let us give those people the tools and let them get on with the job.", "EditedTextHTML": "Before I was elected, I was employed in the voluntary sector. However, I have never worked for a charitable organisation and I would like to point out to the Conservative party that voluntary organisations and charities are not necessarily the same thing.

In the past 17 years, I have seen at first hand the impact of Government decisions on voluntary organisations. Many of those decisions have served to reduce the independence of the sector. Like others, I welcome the publication of \"The Scottish Compact\" as the beginning of the process of re-establishing the independence of the voluntary sector. It is very important that the compact recognises the right of the voluntary sector to comment on and challenge Government policy.

There has been a danger recently that the voluntary sector might go down the same road as local government and end up acting primarily as a vehicle for the delivery of Government policy. However, one of the strengths of the voluntary sector is that it provides an opportunity for many different approaches. It can accommodate organisations as diverse as Crew 2000 and Calton Athletic. Long may it continue to do so.

I am especially familiar with the voluntary housing movement, within which there is a comparable diversity. Housing associations and housing co-operatives range from large national associations that are dominated by establishment figures to local community organisations that are dominated by tenants. Each model has its place and it is important that, in our desire to achieve the objectives of Parliament or the Executive, we do not damage that diversity.

Make no mistake, however: even within the voluntary sector, the diversity of approaches creates tensions. At its best, it is a creative tension. Experience of work in the voluntary sector breeds respect for the contribution that even a small group of dedicated volunteers can achieve. If politicians try to colonise the sector, it will be at their peril. Effective partnership is much more

productive than command and control.

The compact is strong on partnership, which is to be welcomed. However, the reality is a long way from the rhetoric. In the distribution of resources, for example, too many initiatives are being launched, many of them based on wasteful competitive bidding. I am sure that many voluntary workers would echo that sentiment, none more so than those in the voluntary housing movement. The Executive should, in distributing resources, guard against practising a form of divide and conquer.

The recently reported fiasco of the 21st century halls programme is a case in point. In the third round of the initiative, 93 projects were submitted for consideration and only 16 awards were made. Under that programme, approximately £300,000 to £400,000 of speculative expenditure has been made by the voluntary sector, and much effort has been wasted.

Similarly, the new housing partnership programme saw housing associations waste substantial resources bidding for projects, only to see the money ring-fenced for local authority debt write-off. Before I am lambasted from across the chamber, I will make it clear that I am not criticising the decision to write off local authority debt. Indeed, it was my party's policy long before many others were able to understand the concept.

If housing associations and housing co-operatives had known how few resources were to be made available to support the work that they do very successfully, many of them would have avoided wasteful expenditure and effort.

It is the SNP's policy that there should be much more openness and transparency in the distribution of public resources. That applies to funding for the Arts Council and sportscotland and to the distribution of lottery funds as much as to the distribution of resources in the Scottish block.

We believe that that is one of the aspirations of the Scottish Parliament. The practice of using agencies such as Scottish Homes, the Scottish Arts Council and sportscotland to distribute resources can be valuable, and it should be kept under review.

To make the compact effective, the Executive must move on to implementation as quickly as possible. All departments and non-departmental public bodies must produce their plans for implementation. Those plans should be the focus for wide consultation in the voluntary sector. As noted by my colleague, Lloyd Quinan, we must not fragment the sector by creating a two-tier voluntary sector—those who have signed up to the Executive's initiative and those who have not. The SNP's amendment would go some way to ensuring that that does not happen, and I urge members to support it.

Volunteering is at the heart of civic society in Scotland, and the Parliament must value and respect the contribution of those who give their time freely for the benefit of others. To paraphrase: if Parliament agrees the compact, let us give those people the tools and let them get on with the job.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4514296+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1754E157P235C710385", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Peattie, Cathy", "ID": 1754, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Cathy Peattie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Cathy Peattie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 100.0, "ContributionID": 710385, "EditedText": "I am an ex-member of Councils for Voluntary Service, Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am an ex-member of Councils for Voluntary Service, Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4514296+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2118E157P454C710386", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Quinan, Mr Lloyd", "ID": 2118, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lloyd Quinan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Quinan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 102.0, "ContributionID": 710386, "EditedText": "Has Cathy Peattie declared an interest?", "EditedTextHTML": "Has Cathy Peattie declared an interest?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4514296+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C710388", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 107.0, "ContributionID": 710388, "EditedText": "I also speak as someone who has been involved in the voluntary sector as a director of an enterprise trust. Such trusts were set up as companies limited by guarantee, to promote local economic development. Probably like everyone else who has been involved in the voluntary sector, I regard financial issues as being of prime importance. Like many other sectors in our society, the voluntary sector continually feels a financial squeeze. I should like to make six constructive suggestions to the Scottish Executive, asking it to consider ways of improving the financial base of the voluntary sector. Although some of the suggestions relate to reserved matters, I hope that the Executive will consider, in the spirit in which the suggestions are offered, the possibility of making representations about them, to the Chancellor of the Exchequer in particular. An analysis of the £1.8 billion that the voluntary sector receives annually shows that by far the largest single contributor—making up nearly one third of the sector's income—is trading and commercial activity. The voluntary sector in Scotland has suffered in two areas as a result of taxation policy. Its value added tax burden accounts for about £46 million a year—not an insignificant amount. I suggest that, in the run-up to the budget, we ask the chancellor to look at the possibility of providing more financial relief on value added tax for voluntary organisations. The second area is corporation tax, which Phil Gallie mentioned briefly. Knock-on effects of the recent changes in corporation tax have been detrimental to the voluntary sector. That is not a party political point but a fact of life. Again, we should ask the chancellor whether he would be prepared to look again at those changes to see whether he can provide some relief for the voluntary sector.", "EditedTextHTML": "I also speak as someone who has been involved in the voluntary sector as a director of an enterprise trust. Such trusts were set up as companies limited by guarantee, to promote local economic development.

Probably like everyone else who has been involved in the voluntary sector, I regard financial issues as being of prime importance. Like many other sectors in our society, the voluntary sector continually feels a financial squeeze.

I should like to make six constructive suggestions to the Scottish Executive, asking it to consider ways of improving the financial base of the voluntary sector. Although some of the suggestions relate to reserved matters, I hope that the Executive will consider, in the spirit in which the suggestions are offered, the possibility of making representations about them, to the Chancellor of the Exchequer in particular.

An analysis of the £1.8 billion that the voluntary sector receives annually shows that by far the largest single contributor—making up nearly one third of the sector's income—is trading and commercial activity.

The voluntary sector in Scotland has suffered in two areas as a result of taxation policy. Its value added tax burden accounts for about £46 million a year—not an insignificant amount. I suggest that, in the run-up to the budget, we ask the chancellor to look at the possibility of providing more financial relief on value added tax for voluntary organisations.

The second area is corporation tax, which Phil Gallie mentioned briefly. Knock-on effects of the recent changes in corporation tax have been detrimental to the voluntary sector. That is not a party political point but a fact of life. Again, we should ask the chancellor whether he would be prepared to look again at those changes to see whether he can provide some relief for the voluntary sector.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4514296+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C710389", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 109.0, "ContributionID": 710389, "EditedText": "Does Mr Neil agree that added motoring taxes have had a significant effect?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does Mr Neil agree that added motoring taxes have had a significant effect?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4514296+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C710392", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 115.0, "ContributionID": 710392, "EditedText": "I am sorry. I always love to give way, but I cannot do so on this occasion as I do not have time. The corporate sector accounts for 1 per cent—a miserable 1 per cent—of the voluntary sector's income. That is nowhere near good enough. In the past, we had the 1 per cent club, made up of companies that were prepared to give 1 per cent of their pre-tax profits to charity. We must consider ways of encouraging a much more substantial contribution from the corporate sector to the wider voluntary sector in Scotland. I did not have time for everything, but I have given four constructive suggestions.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry. I always love to give way, but I cannot do so on this occasion as I do not have time.

The corporate sector accounts for 1 per cent—a miserable 1 per cent—of the voluntary sector's income. That is nowhere near good enough. In the past, we had the 1 per cent club, made up of companies that were prepared to give 1 per cent of their pre-tax profits to charity. We must consider ways of encouraging a much more substantial contribution from the corporate sector to the wider voluntary sector in Scotland.

I did not have time for everything, but I have given four constructive suggestions.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4514296+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C710413", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 164.0, "ContributionID": 710413, "EditedText": "I must ask you to wind up, please.", "EditedTextHTML": "I must ask you to wind up, please.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1762E216P508C710414", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Elder, Dorothy-Grace", "ID": 1762, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 166.0, "ContributionID": 710414, "EditedText": "We can do better, but we must do so by aiding the voluntary sector with proper money.", "EditedTextHTML": "We can do better, but we must do so by aiding the voluntary sector with proper money.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1762E216P508C710410", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Elder, Dorothy-Grace", "ID": 1762, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 158.0, "ContributionID": 710410, "EditedText": "It was a remarkable tribute to this Parliament that Cardinal Winning addressed us earlier this afternoon. That reminds us of the huge amount of input into the voluntary sector that his and all the other Churches in Scotland accomplish. I will be one of many who will, rather tediously, welcome this compact in principle. However, it is obvious that while there is a lot of good intent on structure and the bones and skeleton of what should be done, there is—as yet—no beef on the bone. We all know that fine words must be backed by real money, to aid the over-pressed voluntary sector. Like many members, I have been involved—for more than 20 years—in a number of charities and voluntary bodies in Scotland and overseas. In the voluntary sector, people get a little tired of having their heads patted all the time when they know that the hands doing the patting should also be reaching into pockets to contribute more. In that case, I mean the pockets of the state. I support monitoring of the good intentions in this compact. I am sure that in the long run the Scottish Executive will welcome that, because it will be seen to be transparent. The fears expressed by some SNP members and others are real. I have seen things happening that we would not have wished to happen in terms of inclusion. One body in Glasgow, which represents more than 300 voluntary groups—the Greater Easterhouse Council for Voluntary Organisations—protested vociferously that it did not wish to be absorbed into a new social inclusion partnership because it wished to remain independent, but it was told a week in advance of the consultation period ending that it would be absorbed. I was a witness to that. Jackie Baillie was also on the platform. We do not want that sort of thing to happen again and monitoring could relieve minds on that score. Various people have been excluded from the consultation. I am especially concerned about some of the bodies representing older people. Age Concern has rightly been consulted but Help the Aged has not. Help the Aged may not be a direct provider of services, but it is most certainly a provider of innovative skills and ideas. We need to include everyone's good ideas and to foresee where the voluntary sector most needs this Parliament's help. I do not find that difficult to tell members, who will have guessed in advance that that help is most needed with senior citizens. Fellow parliamentarians, the average life expectancy at the beginning of this century was only about 54 years; the century ends with a 20year increase. That is to the credit of medical science and many people, but the projection is that by 2032 there will have been a 59 per cent increase in the number of Scots aged over 75. That is a stunning projection, which I hope demonstrates the power of older people. Already, we have more pensioners than school children in Scotland. That should not be a cause of doom and gloom—not at all. We can help pensioners to remain fit and active. The voluntary sector will say that it could hardly function without the aid of active senior citizens who do not wish only to be done unto but who wish to do and to help others. We need to revolutionise our thinking—our elderly and outdated thinking—on older people. Older people I know happen to be tigers rather than pussycats. We want to hear their anger about the prejudices that they suffer, which must change as we move into the new millennium. The other day, I attended a sale of work. A lady from Coatbridge baked nine enormous cakes and a huge boiling of tablet, to boot. She is aged 101.", "EditedTextHTML": "It was a remarkable tribute to this Parliament that Cardinal Winning addressed us earlier this afternoon. That reminds us of the huge amount of input into the voluntary sector that his and all the other Churches in Scotland accomplish.

I will be one of many who will, rather tediously, welcome this compact in principle. However, it is obvious that while there is a lot of good intent on structure and the bones and skeleton of what should be done, there is—as yet—no beef on the bone. We all know that fine words must be backed by real money, to aid the over-pressed voluntary sector.

Like many members, I have been involved—for more than 20 years—in a number of charities and voluntary bodies in Scotland and overseas. In the voluntary sector, people get a little tired of having their heads patted all the time when they know that the hands doing the patting should also be reaching into pockets to contribute more. In that case, I mean the pockets of the state.

I support monitoring of the good intentions in this compact. I am sure that in the long run the Scottish Executive will welcome that, because it will be seen to be transparent. The fears expressed by some SNP members and others are real. I have seen things happening that we would not have wished to happen in terms of inclusion. One body in Glasgow, which represents more than 300 voluntary groups—the Greater Easterhouse Council for Voluntary Organisations—protested vociferously that it did not wish to be absorbed into a new social inclusion partnership because it

wished to remain independent, but it was told a week in advance of the consultation period ending that it would be absorbed. I was a witness to that. Jackie Baillie was also on the platform. We do not want that sort of thing to happen again and monitoring could relieve minds on that score.

Various people have been excluded from the consultation. I am especially concerned about some of the bodies representing older people. Age Concern has rightly been consulted but Help the Aged has not.

Help the Aged may not be a direct provider of services, but it is most certainly a provider of innovative skills and ideas. We need to include everyone's good ideas and to foresee where the voluntary sector most needs this Parliament's help. I do not find that difficult to tell members, who will have guessed in advance that that help is most needed with senior citizens.

Fellow parliamentarians, the average life expectancy at the beginning of this century was only about 54 years; the century ends with a 20year increase. That is to the credit of medical science and many people, but the projection is that by 2032 there will have been a 59 per cent increase in the number of Scots aged over 75. That is a stunning projection, which I hope demonstrates the power of older people.

Already, we have more pensioners than school children in Scotland. That should not be a cause of doom and gloom—not at all. We can help pensioners to remain fit and active. The voluntary sector will say that it could hardly function without the aid of active senior citizens who do not wish only to be done unto but who wish to do and to help others.

We need to revolutionise our thinking—our elderly and outdated thinking—on older people. Older people I know happen to be tigers rather than pussycats. We want to hear their anger about the prejudices that they suffer, which must change as we move into the new millennium.

The other day, I attended a sale of work. A lady from Coatbridge baked nine enormous cakes and a huge boiling of tablet, to boot. She is aged 101.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1762E216P508C710412", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Elder, Dorothy-Grace", "ID": 1762, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 162.0, "ContributionID": 710412, "EditedText": "We will not all see 101 and we will not all be that active, but we must channel the efforts, talents and abilities of older people. We must acknowledge them and we must acknowledge those who are frail. It is quite scandalous that we will soon commemorate armistice Sunday when we know that a drop in temperature—one point on the thermometer— means that 800 old people in Scotland will die, cold and in misery. They are the little brothers and sisters of that great ghost army.", "EditedTextHTML": "We will not all see 101 and we will not all be that active, but we must channel the efforts, talents and abilities of older people. We must acknowledge them and we must acknowledge those who are frail. It is quite scandalous that we will soon commemorate armistice Sunday when we know that a drop in temperature—one point on the thermometer— means that 800 old people in Scotland will die, cold and in misery. They are the little brothers and sisters of that great ghost army.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1931E120P189C710415", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Muldoon, Bristow", "ID": 1931, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Livingston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bristow Muldoon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bristow Muldoon (Livingston) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 169.0, "ContributionID": 710415, "EditedText": "First, I welcome the Scottish compact, as many members have done. In particular, I welcome Jackie Baillie's announcement of a review of charity law. I know that the Scottish Council for Voluntary Organisations called for such a review and will welcome it. I wish to comment on some of the contributions made by earlier speakers. I recognise that there is widespread support for the compact and that the SNP amendment contains the party's genuine concerns. However, I appeal to the SNP to consider allowing the compact to come into place, which it will not do until March next year. We can see how it operates and listen to the voice of voluntary organisations, should they feel that an independent auditing body is required. I believe that a distinction needs to be drawn between the role of campaigning environmental groups and that of the many voluntary organisations that have already signed up to the compact. I would be surprised if campaigning environmental groups signed up to any compact with Government. While that may happen in future, the role of those groups will be recognised and they will be listened to, irrespective of whether they sign up to the compact. The compact promotes active citizenship, encourages pluralism and recognises the diversity of interests and opinions that exists in Scotland. I wish to draw upon my experience in local government. As a funder of voluntary organisations, I have been often in debate with organisations that have criticised the policies that I was trying to promote through the council and that the Government was trying to promote. However, those organisations remained the friends and partners of local government, and we recognised their role in trying to shape the development of services, both locally and nationally. In particular, that approach was successful in the development of a local children's services plan. We brought together a range of organisations with different views about service changes and developments, including Barnado's and Who Cares Scotland, many of which wanted to pursue a faster agenda than the local authority did. They have remained strong partners and friends of local authorities and are still funded by local authorities.Other voluntary organisations that I have been involved in, which have been critical of Government policy but which are influencing that policy, are local Women's Aid organisations. In a recent debate, Jackie Baillie announced additional funding for Women's Aid. The contribution that such organisations have made in promoting and developing the agenda has resulted in changes in Government policy. Linda Fabiani made a point about whether challenge funding was always appropriate. In my experience in West Lothian, we received challenge funding for new partnerships, which allowed us to get 300 new homes for rent with a far lower level of Government subsidy than has been possible for many years through Scottish Homes.", "EditedTextHTML": "First, I welcome the Scottish compact, as many members have done. In particular, I welcome Jackie Baillie's announcement of a review of charity law. I know that the Scottish Council for Voluntary Organisations called for such a review and will welcome it.

I wish to comment on some of the contributions made by earlier speakers. I recognise that there is widespread support for the compact and that the SNP amendment contains the party's genuine concerns. However, I appeal to the SNP to consider allowing the compact to come into place, which it will not do until March next year. We can see how it operates and listen to the voice of voluntary organisations, should they feel that an independent auditing body is required.

I believe that a distinction needs to be drawn between the role of campaigning environmental groups and that of the many voluntary organisations that have already signed up to the compact. I would be surprised if campaigning environmental groups signed up to any compact with Government. While that may happen in future, the role of those groups will be recognised and they will be listened to, irrespective of whether they sign up to the compact.

The compact promotes active citizenship, encourages pluralism and recognises the diversity of interests and opinions that exists in Scotland. I wish to draw upon my experience in local government. As a funder of voluntary organisations, I have been often in debate with organisations that have criticised the policies that I was trying to promote through the council and that the Government was trying to promote. However, those organisations remained the friends and partners of local government, and we recognised their role in trying to shape the development of services, both locally and nationally.

In particular, that approach was successful in the development of a local children's services plan. We brought together a range of organisations with different views about service changes and developments, including Barnado's and Who Cares Scotland, many of which wanted to pursue a faster agenda than the local authority did. They have remained strong partners and friends of local authorities and are still funded by

local authorities.

Other voluntary organisations that I have been involved in, which have been critical of Government policy but which are influencing that policy, are local Women's Aid organisations. In a recent debate, Jackie Baillie announced additional funding for Women's Aid. The contribution that such organisations have made in promoting and developing the agenda has resulted in changes in Government policy.

Linda Fabiani made a point about whether challenge funding was always appropriate. In my experience in West Lothian, we received challenge funding for new partnerships, which allowed us to get 300 new homes for rent with a far lower level of Government subsidy than has been possible for many years through Scottish Homes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2118E157P454C710423", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Quinan, Mr Lloyd", "ID": 2118, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lloyd Quinan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Quinan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 190.0, "ContributionID": 710423, "EditedText": "Give way.", "EditedTextHTML": "Give way.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C710429", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 202.0, "ContributionID": 710429, "EditedText": "Let me make it quite clear: SCVO, VDS and CVS do valuable development work. I see no demand for creating another quango for further development work. The third challenge that the Parliament posed to the Executive five weeks ago was for funding stability. We have made clear our commitment to encourage three-year core funding as the norm, to support core funding costs and to dialogue with local government about its responsibilities in this area. I say to Sandra White that this year local government is benefiting from the best settlement for seven years. If local government is not meeting its responsibilities, people can take that up authority by authority. Above all—this addresses the point that Keith Raffan and Fiona Hyslop made—we need new exit strategies that avoid the pain of the past. That is on our agenda. The issue of funding takes me to Phil Gallie's amendment. It is politically quirky, given his personal political journey, for him to suggest that we should trespass into the reserved areas. The Labour party is not inclined to follow. The marriage of convenience between Phil Gallie and Alex Neil in telling Westminster what to do misses the point of the opportunity that we have in Scotland. The real challenge for the third sector, as for this Parliament, is to modernise our relationships. In the past five weeks, the Executive has done more than the Parliament asked of us. This Executive is determined not just to talk about modernising Scotland, but to deliver that modernisation. In the past five weeks, we have taken three further steps to guarantee that the third sector is at the heart of the new Scotland and at the heart of modernising our nation. First, Jackie announced today our plans to set up an independent review on the reform of Scottish charity law. That is a signal of our willingness to look beyond the boundaries of government when it is right to do so. That reform will be a major step forward, which will be widely welcomed in this chamber and beyond. In answer to Bill Aitken's point, we will shortly come back to the chamber with the terms of reference. Secondly, as some of you know, three weeks ago I met Bill Gates of Microsoft to discuss digital inclusion initiatives. I am excited by the new plans that are being developed jointly by Microsoft in Scotland, British Telecommunications plc and SCVO to wire up the voluntary sector in Scotland. The Scottish voluntary sector has become communications savvy on tight budgets, but we need to connect the entire sector and create a truly national network linking 10,000 desks across Scotland. An e-commerce platform will allow Scottish social economy organisations to play their part in the electronic age. Continuing on the digital theme, Jackie and I will meet Scottish broadcasters later this week to discuss how they can support the voluntary sector. My third point, which is a major one, will I hope address Alex Neil's point about the role of the Scottish corporate sector and its responsibility in supporting the social economy. Today I am announcing our plans to tackle the big, fundamental challenge: how we modernise funding for the third sector to reflect the aspirations that the Parliament has for the sector. We all know that the sector has unrealised potential and we must match its determination to build a new Scotland. The Scottish Executive today announces its support for plans to develop a new, multi-million pound loan fund to finance community projects across Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "Let me make it quite clear: SCVO, VDS and CVS do valuable development work. I see no demand for creating another quango for further development work.

The third challenge that the Parliament posed to the Executive five weeks ago was for funding stability. We have made clear our commitment to encourage three-year core funding as the norm, to support core funding costs and to dialogue with local government about its responsibilities in this area. I say to Sandra White that this year local government is benefiting from the best settlement for seven years. If local government is not meeting its responsibilities, people can take that up authority by authority. Above all—this addresses the point that Keith Raffan and Fiona Hyslop made—we need new exit strategies that avoid the pain of the past. That is on our agenda.

The issue of funding takes me to Phil Gallie's amendment. It is politically quirky, given his personal political journey, for him to suggest that we should trespass into the reserved areas. The Labour party is not inclined to follow. The marriage of convenience between Phil Gallie and Alex Neil in telling Westminster what to do misses the point of the opportunity that we have in Scotland.

The real challenge for the third sector, as for this Parliament, is to modernise our relationships. In the past five weeks, the Executive has done more than the Parliament asked of us. This Executive is determined not just to talk about modernising Scotland, but to deliver that modernisation. In the past five weeks, we have taken three further steps to guarantee that the third sector is at the heart of the new Scotland and at the heart of modernising our nation.

First, Jackie announced today our plans to set up an independent review on the reform of Scottish charity law. That is a signal of our willingness to look beyond the boundaries of government when it is right to do so. That reform will be a major step forward, which will be widely welcomed in this chamber and beyond. In answer to Bill Aitken's point, we will shortly come back to the chamber with the terms of reference.

Secondly, as some of you know, three weeks ago I met Bill Gates of Microsoft to discuss digital

inclusion initiatives. I am excited by the new plans that are being developed jointly by Microsoft in Scotland, British Telecommunications plc and SCVO to wire up the voluntary sector in Scotland. The Scottish voluntary sector has become communications savvy on tight budgets, but we need to connect the entire sector and create a truly national network linking 10,000 desks across Scotland. An e-commerce platform will allow Scottish social economy organisations to play their part in the electronic age. Continuing on the digital theme, Jackie and I will meet Scottish broadcasters later this week to discuss how they can support the voluntary sector.

My third point, which is a major one, will I hope address Alex Neil's point about the role of the Scottish corporate sector and its responsibility in supporting the social economy. Today I am announcing our plans to tackle the big, fundamental challenge: how we modernise funding for the third sector to reflect the aspirations that the Parliament has for the sector. We all know that the sector has unrealised potential and we must match its determination to build a new Scotland. The Scottish Executive today announces its support for plans to develop a new, multi-million pound loan fund to finance community projects across Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C710430", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 204.0, "ContributionID": 710430, "EditedText": "On a point of order.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C710431", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 206.0, "ContributionID": 710431, "EditedText": "Let me finish, then I will take a point of order.", "EditedTextHTML": "Let me finish, then I will take a point of order.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710435", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 214.0, "ContributionID": 710435, "EditedText": "Order. It is for me to decide whether to take a point of order.", "EditedTextHTML": "Order. It is for me to decide whether to take a point of order.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710445", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26985, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 225.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 225.0, "ID": 26985, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 233.0, "ContributionID": 710445, "EditedText": "The result of the division is as follows: For 28, Against 74, Abstentions 0.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result of the division is as follows: For 28, Against 74, Abstentions 0.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710447", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26985, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 225.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 225.0, "ID": 26985, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 236.0, "ContributionID": 710447, "EditedText": "The second question is,that amendment S1M-240.2, in the name of Phil Gallie, which seeks to amend motion S1M-240, in the name of Ms Wendy Alexander, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "The second question is,

that amendment S1M-240.2, in the name of Phil Gallie, which seeks to amend motion S1M-240, in the name of Ms Wendy Alexander, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?

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" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "C710452", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26985, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 225.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 225.0, "ID": 26985, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 245.0, "ContributionID": 710452, "EditedText": "Amendment disagreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment disagreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "C710460", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "North Ayrshire (Unemployment)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26986, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 254.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 254.0, "ID": 26986, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 258.0, "ContributionID": 710460, "EditedText": "That the Parliament notes that the September unemployment figures for North Ayrshire confirm its position as the second worst unemployment blackspot in Scotland and seeks the urgent attention of the Scottish Executive, the Scottish Parliament, and North Ayrshire Council to address the human and economic crisis that exists in this part of Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament notes that the September unemployment figures for North Ayrshire confirm its position as the second worst unemployment blackspot in Scotland and seeks the urgent attention of the Scottish Executive, the Scottish Parliament, and North Ayrshire Council to address the human and economic crisis that exists in this part of Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "C710468", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "North Ayrshire (Unemployment)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26986, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 254.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 254.0, "ID": 26986, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 277.0, "ContributionID": 710468, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C710465", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "North Ayrshire (Unemployment)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26986, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 254.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 254.0, "ID": 26986, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Patricia Ferguson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 271.0, "ContributionID": 710465, "EditedText": "Two more members wish to speak. Under the standing orders, I am obliged to close the debate after 23 minutes, which is about now, unless anyone wishes to—", "EditedTextHTML": "Two more members wish to speak. Under the standing orders, I am obliged to close the debate after 23 minutes, which is about now, unless anyone wishes to—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C710467", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "North Ayrshire (Unemployment)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26986, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 254.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 254.0, "ID": 26986, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 275.0, "ContributionID": 710467, "EditedText": "We can agree then that we will continue for perhaps another 15 minutes.", "EditedTextHTML": "We can agree then that we will continue for perhaps another 15 minutes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C710474", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "North Ayrshire (Unemployment)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26986, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 254.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 254.0, "ID": 26986, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 289.0, "ContributionID": 710474, "EditedText": "Which vote are you referring to?", "EditedTextHTML": "Which vote are you referring to?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1811E172P455C710464", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "North Ayrshire (Unemployment)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26986, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 254.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 254.0, "ID": 26986, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ullrich, Kay", "ID": 1811, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kay Ullrich", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Kay Ullrich (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 269.0, "ContributionID": 710464, "EditedText": "The previous speakers have given eloquent testimony about the terrible unemployment black spot in North Ayrshire. It is heartening to have cross-party support for the motion. However, although I welcome Phil Gallie's born-again Tory approach to the roads infrastructure and unemployment, I have to warn him that when his press release hits North Ayrshire, he is likely to be given the brass neck of the year award. It will take North Ayrshire some time to forget the damage wreaked by 18 years of Tory rule. Since the Labour party came to power, its record has also been far from impressive. As Mike Russell said, figures show that over the past year unemployment in North Ayrshire has dropped. It has dropped by 15—not 15 per cent, but 15 people. So much for new Labour's much-hyped new deal. Quite frankly, it is just the same old rotten deal as far as North Ayrshire is concerned. By the time that North Ayrshire Council has put the 40 direct labour organisation workers on the dole and we have taken into account redundancies at Volvo and at P & O, which announced just yesterday that it is to pull out of Ardrossan, the figure of plus 15 will disappear like snaw aff the proverbial. Many reasons can be given to explain why North Ayrshire has such high unemployment. The three towns area of Ardrossan, Saltcoats and Stevenston can be said never to have recovered from the days when those towns were ICI company towns. ICI had an unwritten deal with central Government and local government that meant that other major companies would be discouraged from setting up in the area of the three towns, so that ICI would have first call on the available work force. I am old enough—I admit it—to remember boys and girls leaving school and going straight into the Ardeer factory, or the \"dinamite\" as it was called locally. Many of those who went away to university returned after graduation to work for ICI. ICI has now all but gone and the situation is so bad that North Ayrshire Council is now the largest employer in the area. It is frightening to think that about 6,500 people are dependent for their livelihood on the second-worst local authority in Scotland. The Labour-run council managed to lose £4.4 million last year and is currently slashing services and putting people on the dole in a desperate attempt to avoid a repeat this year. Other areas of Scotland have suffered similar job losses, and they are faring much better. The major problem in North Ayrshire is the totally inadequate roads infrastructure. Mike spoke about what a businessman would think when he opened the local paper and read of the latest public mêlée among North Ayrshire Labour councillors. Imagine the same businessman arriving at Glasgow airport and making his way by car to view the area in which he might locate his new factory. He has to take the A737, he gets stuck behind a tractor, he soon begins to wonder how he will get his supplies and products in and out of the area and another potential investor is lost. The situation is not new; it has been going on for many years. At a conference organised by North Ayrshire Council, entitled \"North Ayrshire into the Millennium\", held prior to the general election and attended by local businessmen, politicians and representatives from enterprise and voluntary organisations, it was agreed that the single most important action that could be taken to make North Ayrshire more attractive to business investors would be the upgrading of the A737. In opposition, local Labour MPs were vociferous in their condemnation of the Tories for continually refusing to upgrade the A737. Sarah Boyack, the Labour Minister for Transport and the Environment, has now confirmed in a written response to a parliamentary question from me that the Executive has no plans to upgrade North Ayrshire's link to the outside world. North Ayrshire needs and deserves better. If it is to have any chance of turning round the appalling level of unemployment, it needs an upgraded A737. That requires a rethink on the part of the Executive. It needs more than warm words from those in positions of power. North Ayrshire needs action and it needs it now.", "EditedTextHTML": "The previous speakers have given eloquent testimony about the terrible unemployment black spot in North Ayrshire. It is heartening to have cross-party support for the motion. However, although I welcome Phil Gallie's born-again Tory approach to the roads infrastructure and unemployment, I have to warn him that when his press release hits North Ayrshire, he is likely to be given the brass neck of the year award. It will take North Ayrshire some time to forget the damage wreaked by 18 years of Tory rule.

Since the Labour party came to power, its record has also been far from impressive. As Mike Russell said, figures show that over the past year unemployment in North Ayrshire has dropped. It has dropped by 15—not 15 per cent, but 15 people. So much for new Labour's much-hyped new deal. Quite frankly, it is just the same old rotten deal as far as North Ayrshire is concerned. By the time that North Ayrshire Council has put the 40 direct labour organisation workers on the dole and we have taken into account redundancies at Volvo and at P & O, which announced just yesterday that it is to pull out of Ardrossan, the figure of plus 15 will disappear like snaw aff the proverbial.

Many reasons can be given to explain why North Ayrshire has such high unemployment. The three towns area of Ardrossan, Saltcoats and Stevenston can be said never to have recovered from the days when those towns were ICI company towns. ICI had an unwritten deal with central Government and local government that meant that other major companies would be discouraged from setting up in the area of the three towns, so that ICI would have first call on the available work force.

I am old enough—I admit it—to remember boys and girls leaving school and going straight into the Ardeer factory, or the \"dinamite\" as it was called locally. Many of those who went away to university returned after graduation to work for ICI. ICI has now all but gone and the situation is so bad that North Ayrshire Council is now the largest employer in the area. It is frightening to think that about 6,500 people are dependent for their livelihood on the second-worst local authority in Scotland. The Labour-run council managed to lose £4.4 million last year and is currently slashing services and putting people on the dole in a desperate attempt to avoid a repeat this year.

Other areas of Scotland have suffered similar job losses, and they are faring much better. The major problem in North Ayrshire is the totally inadequate roads infrastructure. Mike spoke about what a businessman would think when he opened the local paper and read of the latest public mêlée among North Ayrshire Labour councillors. Imagine the same businessman arriving at Glasgow airport and making his way by car to view the area in which he might locate his new factory. He has to take the A737, he gets stuck behind a tractor, he soon begins to wonder how he will get his supplies and products in and out of the area and another potential investor is lost.

The situation is not new; it has been going on for many years. At a conference organised by North Ayrshire Council, entitled \"North Ayrshire into the Millennium\", held prior to the general election and attended by local businessmen, politicians and representatives from enterprise and voluntary organisations, it was agreed that the single most important action that could be taken to make North Ayrshire more attractive to business investors would be the upgrading of the A737.

In opposition, local Labour MPs were vociferous in their condemnation of the Tories for continually refusing to upgrade the A737. Sarah Boyack, the Labour Minister for Transport and the Environment, has now confirmed in a written response to a parliamentary question from me that the Executive has no plans to upgrade North Ayrshire's link to the outside world.

North Ayrshire needs and deserves better. If it is to have any chance of turning round the appalling level of unemployment, it needs an upgraded A737. That requires a rethink on the part of the Executive. It needs more than warm words from those in positions of power. North Ayrshire needs action and it needs it now.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1782E69P279C710469", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "North Ayrshire (Unemployment)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26986, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 254.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 254.0, "ID": 26986, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Oldfather, Irene", "ID": 1782, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Cunninghame South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Irene Oldfather", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Irene Oldfather (Cunninghame South) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 279.0, "ContributionID": 710469, "EditedText": "I always welcome the opportunity to discuss my constituency in the Parliament, so I am happy to join colleagues to debate the motion. Having spent most of my life in North Ayrshire, and been educated, worked, lived and brought up my children there, I know the area and the people well. It saddens me to know that the hardship that has been placed on some people in my constituency is the result of unemployment. However, I am a bit disappointed, as I hoped that we would not get into Labour-bashing and council- bashing but that we would have a constructive debate on the issues. I was glad to hear Mr Russell repeat many of the points that I made in last week's debate on structural funds and regional selective assistance. I will not reiterate all the statistics, but unemployment in the area remains 4 per cent above the Scottish average. The problem is far more serious than that headline rate; it is chronic and structural, and it is affecting the area. I agree with Mr Russell about the human element. This is not just about statistics; it is about people's lives and aspirations. It contributes to the social exclusion argument and problem. I believe that employment and employment opportunity are not only goals in themselves, but the route out of the poverty that divides communities. We have heard about the people who have not found work since the closure of the Garnock steel works in 1978 and the haemorrhaging of jobs from ICI. Their impact on our communities cannot be overestimated. Furthermore, because the overwhelming majority of our exports are generated by firms with more than 200 employees, the economy is extremely vulnerable and sensitive to relocation and will be deeply affected by the proposed closure of the Volvo plant, which has already been mentioned. The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning is aware of my views on that and has visited the area. The Ayrshire economic forum has made its views known to him. I remain optimistic—as a result of discussions that we have had at the forum—that a solution can still be found to redeploy the work force in that area. The economy is also too dependent on declining industries. There is not enough emphasis on niche markets or growth industries, partly because our business birth rate, particularly among small to medium enterprises—I think Mr Russell referred to this—is lower than in the rest of Scotland. As I said last week, I do not believe that that is because the people of Ayrshire lack entrepreneurial skills; I believe that high unemployment and a fragile economy dissuade people from taking on the risks attached to setting up their own businesses. It is vital for the area's self-esteem that we recognise the positive developments that are taking place. If we do not have confidence in our own area, how can we expect other people to have confidence in it? Unemployment is falling. Mrs Ullrich mentioned this month's figures. The figures for last September are the best September figures in the 1990s. The Universal Scientific Instruments plant in Irvine was the largest single investment in the UK last year, and it will bring 700 jobs to the area. Kay Ullrich mentioned the new deal in disparaging terms, but it has brought 1,200 jobs to Ayrshire in the past year. That is to be commended. The prioritisation of lifelong learning is also bearing fruit in the area, with the new North Ayrshire College in Kilwinning representing an investment in further education that I hope will raise our skills base and attract new investors. The college will offer the opportunity to begin to kick-start the local economy in Kilwinning. That is not to say that the Parliament or, in particular, the Scottish Executive, should rest on their laurels. Nicol Stephen acknowledged that point in last week's debate when, in response to my comments on regional selective assistance, he said that \"more requires to be done.\"—Official Report, 28 October 1999; Vol 3, c 201. As with structural funding in assisted areas, I hope that the Scottish Executive will continue to prioritise areas that suffer from deep-seated, long- term problems and unemployment. Transport infrastructure remains an area of concern. I mention by way of example the A78, A737 and A77. I hope that tomorrow's debate on the strategic roads review will contain some positive announcements for Ayrshire. Good transport links are vital to the area and to improving economic development. Indeed, as Phil Gallie said, in the debate on the food standards agency Susan Deacon stated that good transport links were one of the reasons for shortlisting Aberdeen and Dundee. That causes me some concern and shows that we need to improve transport links into Ayrshire. The Scottish Executive can show its commitment to North Ayrshire by dispersing civil service jobs to the area. I have been calling for that for a long time, even during my period on North Ayrshire Council. I am pleased that the First Minister has asked for information on site locations. I was disappointed to see that Mike Russell and Kay Ullrich voted to take the food standards agency to Aberdeen and not to support the lobby to site it in Ayrshire. The 45 jobs that that agency brings would have been a major boost to Ayrshire, and it is regrettable that they supported the interests of the north of Scotland over the areas that they were elected to represent.", "EditedTextHTML": "I always welcome the opportunity to discuss my constituency in the Parliament, so I am happy to join colleagues to debate the motion.

Having spent most of my life in North Ayrshire, and been educated, worked, lived and brought up my children there, I know the area and the people well. It saddens me to know that the hardship that has been placed on some people in my constituency is the result of unemployment. However, I am a bit disappointed, as I hoped that we would not get into Labour-bashing and council- bashing but that we would have a constructive debate on the issues.

I was glad to hear Mr Russell repeat many of the points that I made in last week's debate on structural funds and regional selective assistance. I will not reiterate all the statistics, but unemployment in the area remains 4 per cent above the Scottish average. The problem is far more serious than that headline rate; it is chronic and structural, and it is affecting the area. I agree with Mr Russell about the human element. This is not just about statistics; it is about people's lives and aspirations. It contributes to the social exclusion argument and problem.

I believe that employment and employment opportunity are not only goals in themselves, but the route out of the poverty that divides communities. We have heard about the people who have not found work since the closure of the Garnock steel works in 1978 and the haemorrhaging of jobs from ICI. Their impact on our communities cannot be overestimated.

Furthermore, because the overwhelming majority of our exports are generated by firms with more than 200 employees, the economy is extremely vulnerable and sensitive to relocation and will be deeply affected by the proposed closure of the Volvo plant, which has already been mentioned. The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning is aware of my views on that and has visited the area. The Ayrshire economic forum has made its views known to him. I remain optimistic—as a result of discussions that we have had at the forum—that a solution can still be found to redeploy the work force in that area.

The economy is also too dependent on declining industries. There is not enough emphasis on niche markets or growth industries, partly because our business birth rate, particularly among small to medium enterprises—I think Mr Russell referred to this—is lower than in the rest of Scotland. As I said last week, I do not believe that that is because the people of Ayrshire lack entrepreneurial skills; I believe that high unemployment and a fragile economy dissuade people from taking on the risks attached to setting up their own businesses. It is vital for the area's self-esteem that we recognise the positive developments that are taking place. If we do not have confidence in our own area, how can we expect other people to have confidence in it?

Unemployment is falling. Mrs Ullrich mentioned this month's figures. The figures for last September are the best September figures in the 1990s. The Universal Scientific Instruments plant in Irvine was the largest single investment in the UK last year, and it will bring 700 jobs to the area.

Kay Ullrich mentioned the new deal in disparaging terms, but it has brought 1,200 jobs to Ayrshire in the past year. That is to be commended. The prioritisation of lifelong learning is also bearing fruit in the area, with the new North Ayrshire College in Kilwinning representing an investment in further education that I hope will raise our skills base and attract new investors.

The college will offer the opportunity to begin to kick-start the local economy in Kilwinning. That is not to say that the Parliament or, in particular, the Scottish Executive, should rest on their laurels. Nicol Stephen acknowledged that point in last week's debate when, in response to my comments on regional selective assistance, he said that

\"more requires to be done.\"—[Official Report, 28 October 1999; Vol 3, c 201.]

As with structural funding in assisted areas, I hope that the Scottish Executive will continue to prioritise areas that suffer from deep-seated, long- term problems and unemployment.

Transport infrastructure remains an area of concern. I mention by way of example the A78, A737 and A77. I hope that tomorrow's debate on the strategic roads review will contain some positive announcements for Ayrshire. Good transport links are vital to the area and to improving economic development. Indeed, as Phil Gallie said, in the debate on the food standards agency Susan Deacon stated that good transport links were one of the reasons for shortlisting Aberdeen and Dundee. That causes me some concern and shows that we need to improve transport links into Ayrshire.

The Scottish Executive can show its commitment to North Ayrshire by dispersing civil service jobs to the area. I have been calling for that for a long time, even during my period on North Ayrshire Council. I am pleased that the First Minister has asked for information on site locations.

I was disappointed to see that Mike Russell and Kay Ullrich voted to take the food standards agency to Aberdeen and not to support the lobby to site it in Ayrshire. The 45 jobs that that agency brings would have been a major boost to Ayrshire, and it is regrettable that they supported the interests of the north of Scotland over the areas that they were elected to represent.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1782E69P279C710475", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "North Ayrshire (Unemployment)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26986, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 254.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 254.0, "ID": 26986, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Oldfather, Irene", "ID": 1782, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Cunninghame South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Irene Oldfather", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Oldfather: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 291.0, "ContributionID": 710475, "EditedText": "Mr Russell, I have already answered that question. I notice Phil Gallie nodding in agreement. I am grateful that he offered his support to the constituency MSPs in attempting to attract those jobs to one of Scotland's most deprived areas. Before I conclude, I will briefly mention the Caledonian Paper mill. The energy tax is a matter for Westminster. I have discussed it with Henry McLeish, and I have written to him to ask him to make representations to the UK Government on behalf of Caledonian Paper mill. It would be of assistance if we examined the best way in which the tax could be collected. The task to regenerate North Ayrshire is huge and regeneration can be achieved only through measures to promote lifelong learning, improved transport links, social inclusion and job creation. I hope that the new politics will guarantee constructive suggestions from and debate among all parties in this Parliament and that the Scottish Executive's commitment to social justice will be borne out in North Ayrshire.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Russell, I have already answered that question. I notice Phil Gallie nodding in agreement. I am grateful that he offered his support to the constituency MSPs in attempting to attract those jobs to one of Scotland's most deprived areas.

Before I conclude, I will briefly mention the Caledonian Paper mill. The energy tax is a matter for Westminster. I have discussed it with Henry McLeish, and I have written to him to ask him to make representations to the UK Government on behalf of Caledonian Paper mill. It would be of assistance if we examined the best way in which the tax could be collected.

The task to regenerate North Ayrshire is huge and regeneration can be achieved only through measures to promote lifelong learning, improved transport links, social inclusion and job creation. I hope that the new politics will guarantee constructive suggestions from and debate among all parties in this Parliament and that the Scottish Executive's commitment to social justice will be borne out in North Ayrshire.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C710477", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "North Ayrshire (Unemployment)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26986, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 254.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 254.0, "ID": 26986, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 296.0, "ContributionID": 710477, "EditedText": "I call Nicol Stephen to wind up the debate.", "EditedTextHTML": "I call Nicol Stephen to wind up the debate.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C710479", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "North Ayrshire (Unemployment)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26986, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 254.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 254.0, "ID": 26986, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 301.0, "ContributionID": 710479, "EditedText": "He is still one to watch.", "EditedTextHTML": "He is still one to watch.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2154E194P299C710480", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "North Ayrshire (Unemployment)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26986, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 254.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 254.0, "ID": 26986, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stephen, Nicol", "ID": 2154, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Nicol Stephen", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicol Stephen: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 303.0, "ContributionID": 710480, "EditedText": "On a more serious note, Mike Russell produced a lot of statistics that summarised a very worrying situation in North Ayrshire. Although the unemployment statistics are much debated, and although someone has to be second last or last on the list, it is a fact that the figure for North Ayrshire is significantly above the Scottish average. As Kay Ullrich said, in the past year there has been no decline in unemployment. The statistics that she quoted suggest a standstill, whereas in the rest of the Scotland there has been a decline—from 5.6 to 5.2 per cent. That is of particular concern. Allan Wilson need make no apology for the fact that some of these issues are being covered again. The fact that this is the second debate focusing on the problems in North Ayrshire underscores the issue's importance and members' concern about it. I agree with Phil Gallie that we must never be negative on these issues and that it is possible to talk down an area, particularly where inward investment is concerned. We are trying to encourage new investment in the area. We must maximise opportunities and work together. I hope that that is one of the main things that the Scottish Parliament achieves, particularly in economic development. We should not look only at the negatives. Unemployment may go the wrong way, but there have been positives in North Ayrshire. A lot of good work is being done and I hope that I can reflect Irene Oldfather's call for a positive debate. I hope that my remarks help to set a positive tone. There have been many ministerial visits to North Ayrshire—five since the Scottish Parliament election. That would not have happened under the Westminster system. The reasons for the visits have been varied, but some of them have been for good announcements—for example to do with new, innovative management initiatives relating to North Ayrshire Ventures Ltd and to Volvo. I attended the Ayrshire economic forum. It is important to underline the Scottish Executive's commitment, at ministerial level, to it. The creation of 700 jobs by Universal Scientific Instruments at Irvine was good news. New investment by SmithKline Beecham, which helped to secure 200 jobs and created 19 more, was also good news. The Ayrshire economic forum lies at the heart of the work that is being done by the Scottish Executive. It is central to the promotion of Ayrshire as a growth area for business.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a more serious note, Mike Russell produced a lot of statistics that summarised a very worrying situation in North Ayrshire. Although the unemployment statistics are much debated, and although someone has to be second last or last on the list, it is a fact that the figure for North Ayrshire is significantly above the Scottish average. As Kay Ullrich said, in the past year there has been no decline in unemployment. The statistics that she quoted suggest a standstill, whereas in the rest of the Scotland there has been a decline—from 5.6 to 5.2 per cent. That is of particular concern.

Allan Wilson need make no apology for the fact that some of these issues are being covered again. The fact that this is the second debate focusing on the problems in North Ayrshire underscores the issue's importance and members' concern about it.

I agree with Phil Gallie that we must never be negative on these issues and that it is possible to talk down an area, particularly where inward investment is concerned. We are trying to encourage new investment in the area. We must maximise opportunities and work together. I hope that that is one of the main things that the Scottish Parliament achieves, particularly in economic development.

We should not look only at the negatives. Unemployment may go the wrong way, but there have been positives in North Ayrshire. A lot of good work is being done and I hope that I can reflect Irene Oldfather's call for a positive debate. I hope that my remarks help to set a positive tone.

There have been many ministerial visits to North Ayrshire—five since the Scottish Parliament election. That would not have happened under the Westminster system. The reasons for the visits have been varied, but some of them have been for good announcements—for example to do with new, innovative management initiatives relating to North Ayrshire Ventures Ltd and to Volvo.

I attended the Ayrshire economic forum. It is important to underline the Scottish Executive's commitment, at ministerial level, to it. The creation of 700 jobs by Universal Scientific Instruments at Irvine was good news. New investment by SmithKline Beecham, which helped to secure 200 jobs and created 19 more, was also good news.

The Ayrshire economic forum lies at the heart of the work that is being done by the Scottish Executive. It is central to the promotion of Ayrshire as a growth area for business.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C710481", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "North Ayrshire (Unemployment)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26986, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 254.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 254.0, "ID": 26986, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 305.0, "ContributionID": 710481, "EditedText": "I think that the Ayrshire economic forum is extremely important. It is regrettable that the list MSPs for Ayrshire are not invited to attend—certainly the SNP ones are not. I hope that the minister will encourage the Ayrshire economic forum to involve list MSPs.", "EditedTextHTML": "I think that the Ayrshire economic forum is extremely important. It is regrettable that the list MSPs for Ayrshire are not invited to attend—certainly the SNP ones are not. I hope that the minister will encourage the Ayrshire economic forum to involve list MSPs.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "C710340", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Wednesday 3 November 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26981, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26981, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 2.0, "ContributionID": 710340, "EditedText": "THE PRESIDING OFFICER opened the meeting at 14:30", "EditedTextHTML": "[THE PRESIDING OFFICER opened the meeting at 14:30]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4514296+00:00" }, { "ID": "C710342", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Time for Reflection", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26982, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26982, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "His Eminence Thomas J Cardinal Winning (President of the Bishops Conference of Scotland) ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "His Eminence Thomas J Cardinal Winning (President of the Bishops Conference of Scotland): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 6.0, "ContributionID": 710342, "EditedText": "Thank you, Mr Presiding Officer. Before we begin our short time of prayer and reflection, I thank you for your invitation on my own behalf and on behalf of the Catholics of Scotland. I bring with me the good wishes and prayers of all Scotland's Catholics for the success of the new Parliament, for which we have waited so long. I pray every day for the Parliament's success. Let us gather our thoughts and place ourselves in the presence of God. Our Lord and our God,We firmly believe that you are hereThat you see usThat you hear us.We worship you and give you thanks.We ask you to make this time of prayer fruitfulFor us and for all the people of Scotland.As children, we learned that prayer was \"talking to God\". For any conversation to have value, it must be two-way, and so, before speaking to God, let us listen to His word. It was before the festival of the Passover, and Jesus knew that the hour had come for him to pass from this world to the Father. He knew that the Father had put everything into his hands and that he had come from God and was returning to God. He got up from the table, removed his outer garment and, taking a towel, wrapped it around his waist. He then poured water into a basin and began to wash the disciples' feet and to wipe them with the towel he was wearing. When he had washed their feet and put on his clothes again, he went back to the table. \"Do you understand,\" he said, \"what I have done to you? You call me Master and Lord, and rightly; so I am. If I then, the Lord and Master, have washed your feet, you should wash one another's feet. I have given you an example so that you may copy what I have done to you.\" That was a reading from St John's gospel. Those words and actions of Jesus are a reminder to all of us called to public service that our work is a work of service first and foremost, a work of serving our fellow citizens and our God. Let us recommit ourselves to our calling to serve the people of Scotland. Let us pray.We thank you, O God, for the call you address to us To serve the people of Scotland Accept the prayers we offer for our nation.In the guiding principles of our Parliament By the wisdom of our leaders And integrity of our citizens May compassion and justice be secured.May our land enjoy and promote lasting prosperity Respect for life at all stages And educational opportunities for all.Bless our families: May our people witness to stable family life and our children enjoy the blessings of a happy home.Give us the courage to be the kind of Scots You want us to be. We ask this through Christ our Lord.As children of the one Father, let us pray together in the words our Saviour gave us. Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For Thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory, for ever and ever. Before debates begin for the day, let us call down God's blessing on this Parliament of ours and on the people of Scotland in the words of the ancient Celtic blessing. May the road rise to meet you, May the wind be always at your back, May the sun shine warm upon your face, May the rains fall gently upon your fields. Until we meet again May God hold you in the palm of his hand.May the peace and blessing of Almighty God, the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, come down on all of us, and remain with us for ever. Amen.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you, Mr Presiding Officer. Before we begin our short time of prayer and reflection, I thank you for your invitation on my own behalf and on behalf of the Catholics of Scotland. I bring with me the good wishes and prayers of all Scotland's Catholics for the success of the new Parliament, for which we have waited so long. I pray every day for the Parliament's success.

Let us gather our thoughts and place ourselves in the presence of God.

Our Lord and our God,

We firmly believe that you are here

That you see us

That you hear us.

We worship you and give you thanks.

We ask you to make this time of prayer fruitful

For us and for all the people of Scotland.

As children, we learned that prayer was \"talking to God\". For any conversation to have value, it must be two-way, and so, before speaking to God, let us listen to His word.

It was before the festival of the Passover, and Jesus knew that the hour had come for him to pass from this world to the Father.

He knew that the Father had put everything into his hands and that he had come from God and was returning to God. He got up from the table, removed his outer garment and, taking a towel, wrapped it around his waist. He then poured water into a basin and began to wash the disciples' feet and to wipe them with the towel he was wearing.

When he had washed their feet and put on his clothes again, he went back to the table. \"Do you understand,\" he said, \"what I have done to you? You call me Master and Lord, and rightly; so I am. If I then, the Lord and Master, have washed your feet, you should wash one another's feet. I have given you an example so that you may copy what I have done to you.\"

That was a reading from St John's gospel. Those words and actions of Jesus are a reminder to all of us called to public service that our work is a work of service first and foremost, a work of serving our fellow citizens and our God. Let us recommit ourselves to our calling to serve the people of Scotland.

Let us pray.

We thank you, O God, for the call you address to us To serve the people of Scotland Accept the prayers we offer for our nation.

In the guiding principles of our Parliament By the wisdom of our leaders And integrity of our citizens May compassion and justice be secured.

May our land enjoy and promote lasting prosperity Respect for life at all stages And educational opportunities for all.

Bless our families: May our people witness to stable family life and our children enjoy the blessings of a happy home.

Give us the courage to be the kind of Scots You want us to be. We ask this through Christ our Lord.

As children of the one Father, let us pray together in the words our Saviour gave us.

Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For Thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory, for ever and ever.

Before debates begin for the day, let us call down God's blessing on this Parliament of ours and on the people of Scotland in the words of the ancient Celtic blessing.

May the road rise to meet you, May the wind be always at your back, May the sun shine warm upon your face, May the rains fall gently upon your fields. Until we meet again May God hold you in the palm of his hand.

May the peace and blessing of Almighty God, the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, come down on all of us, and remain with us for ever.

Amen.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4514296+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710343", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 9.0, "ContributionID": 710343, "EditedText": "The next item of business is a debate on motion S1M-240, in the name of Miss Wendy Alexander, on the Scottish Executive's compact with the voluntary sector, and the amendments to that motion. I invite members who wish to speak in the debate to press their request buttons now.", "EditedTextHTML": "The next item of business is a debate on motion S1M-240, in the name of Miss Wendy Alexander, on the Scottish Executive's compact with the voluntary sector, and the amendments to that motion.

I invite members who wish to speak in the debate to press their request buttons now.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4514296+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710346", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 15.0, "ContributionID": 710346, "EditedText": "Mr MacAskill, is it the same point of order?", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr MacAskill, is it the same point of order?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4514296+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2112E192P495C710347", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacAskill, Kenny", "ID": 2112, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenny MacAskill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr MacAskill: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 17.0, "ContributionID": 710347, "EditedText": "Yes. I wish to raise the concern that my colleague just made regarding repeated statements to the press before matters are announced in this chamber. Last week, a public transport fund allocation was intimated in a press release. Like Fergus Ewing, I heard on the BBC this morning that there will be a recanting with regard to road tolls in tomorrow's debate on the strategic roads review. Neither of those matters have come before the Transport and the Environment Committee, any other committee, or this chamber. Sir David, I ask you to rule that that democratic deficit is unacceptable and that matters should be brought to this chamber first, rather than the press corps.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes. I wish to raise the concern that my colleague just made regarding repeated statements to the press before matters are announced in this chamber. Last week, a public transport fund allocation was intimated in a press release. Like Fergus Ewing, I heard on the BBC this morning that there will be a recanting with regard to road tolls in tomorrow's debate on the strategic roads review. Neither of those matters have come before the Transport and the Environment Committee, any other committee, or this chamber.

Sir David, I ask you to rule that that democratic deficit is unacceptable and that matters should be brought to this chamber first, rather than the press corps.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4514296+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C710350", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan (Glasgow) (SSP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 24.0, "ContributionID": 710350, "EditedText": "I thank the minister for giving way. I note the minister's words on building strength and building together, with local authorities at the core. Will she join me in asking Glasgow City Council not to quadruple its charges from £5 a day to £20 for letting school facilities to voluntary organisations? At one fell swoop, that will completely demolish many of the voluntary groups in the city of Glasgow, as, quite frankly, they cannot afford those letting charges. Will the minister condemn the council's proposals?", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the minister for giving way.

I note the minister's words on building strength and building together, with local authorities at the core. Will she join me in asking Glasgow City Council not to quadruple its charges from £5 a day to £20 for letting school facilities to voluntary organisations? At one fell swoop, that will completely demolish many of the voluntary groups in the city of Glasgow, as, quite frankly, they cannot afford those letting charges. Will the minister condemn the council's proposals?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4514296+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C710367", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Richard Simpson (Ochil) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 60.0, "ContributionID": 710367, "EditedText": "On a point of order. Is it in order for a member to give misinformation to the Parliament in reply to a question and deliberately to—", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. Is it in order for a member to give misinformation to the Parliament in reply to a question and deliberately to—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4514296+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C710369", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Simpson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 64.0, "ContributionID": 710369, "EditedText": "Oh. If it was really that, I withdraw.", "EditedTextHTML": "Oh. If it was really that, I withdraw.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4514296+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2118E157P454C710354", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Quinan, Mr Lloyd", "ID": 2118, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lloyd Quinan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Lloyd Quinan (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 33.0, "ContributionID": 710354, "EditedText": "I thank the Executive for giving us the opportunity to hold a major debate, for a second time, on the voluntary sector. I welcome the initiative as part of the further development of an inclusive democracy for Scotland. It follows on timeously from the Minister for Finance's announcement last week on the provision of funding for the civic forum. Both the compact and the independent body that the SNP amendment proposes would further extend the democratic process in Scotland and would put our nation in the vanguard of inclusive politics and the development of civic society. There is no question that the establishment of the compact is welcomed, particularly by the voluntary sector and by all the parties in the Parliament. I am sure that we would all commend the considerable work that has been put into taking the initiative forward. At the outset of today's debate, I would like to acknowledge all those who have contributed to that, particularly the Scottish Council for Voluntary Organisations, the Executive and the many voluntary organisations that are represented in the public gallery today. I hope that the compact will be a milestone in Scotland's new civic landscape and a turning point in the relationship between statutory and non-statutory bodies. Although the compact itself may not represent a complete meeting of minds, it is certainly a great opportunity to take a step in the right direction. There is scope for greater involvement through the creation of an independent body. The SNP lodged its amendment with one aim in mind: the promotion of inclusion and the extension to as many organisations in Scotland as possible of the benefits that the compact will bring. Why is the amendment necessary? We have to accept that certain organisations—some by virtue of their democratic structures and others because of their purpose—will find their perceived independence compromised by signing up to the compact. Indeed, that is acknowledged in the document \"The Scottish Compact\": \"The Compact acknowledges that the voluntary sector and the Government have their own spheres of action with different roles, responsibilities and resources. It is accepted that not all voluntary organisations will have an interest in seeking partnership with Government. Some will prefer to pursue their own objectives without reference to the state. Others may find themselves more often in opposition to the Government than in partnership.\" The final sentence is the crux of why we lodged the amendment. Organisations must not be excluded from the possibility of partnership, regardless of whether they are in opposition to— or, indeed, in agreement with—the Government. Many organisations have expressed concern that the third sector could be artificially divided into a two-tier structure: into those that are actively involved in the delivery of social provision and that assist the Executive, in particular, with the delivery of social inclusion policy; and into those that, by their nature, are campaigning organisations and pressure groups. Such organisations fear that failing to sign up to the compact will give rise to a them-and-us situation—those that are in and those that are out, or those that have signed the compact and those that, for whatever reason, feel unable to do so.Our aim must be to avoid such division. We believe that it is absolutely essential to put in place structures to enable as much as possible of the third sector in Scotland to sign up to the document. We believe that the establishment of an independent development body, whose remit would be to oversee the compact and to examine and—as it says in the document—to extend the boundaries of the compact, will allay some of the fears that many organisations have, and enable the compact to develop rapidly towards including the whole of the third sector. A number of factors are vital to the improvement of the quality of life in our country. The relationship between Government and funding bodies has sometimes been difficult—for instance, when a third-sector organisation has found itself at odds with the political ethos of the day. The creation of an independent body would allow us to leave that baggage firmly in the past so that there is no repeat of the unfortunate divisions experienced particularly by those organisations concerned with environment, housing, health care and drug abuse issues. I want to examine the problems experienced by some of the organisations working in the areas of drugs and health care. We are all aware that the organisations dealing with drugs and health care are diverse—that is their nature. They represent a wide range of views and serve different needs, sometimes with different objectives. In many cases, their objectives are different from those of local and central Government. At one end of the spectrum are organisations such as Scotland Against Drugs, zero-tolerance organisations and the Just Say No campaign. At the other end are those involved in harm-reduction measures, promoted, for instance, by Crew 2000 and the late, lamented Enhance project in Glasgow. This is not the time for a debate about the relative merits of the many, diverse approaches to drugs issues. However, few people would disagree that the work of each of those organisations is valuable in its different way. Historically, harm-reduction organisations have been in competition with zero-tolerance organisations for funding. Much of Government philosophy on the matter discourages harm- reduction organisations from becoming involved. I do not want to take this debate down the road of drugs policy, but it highlights the problem when challenge funding structures are used. The danger for any organisation that does not sing from the same hymn book as the Executive—this one or previous Administrations—is that that organisation will be forced to change the service that it delivers to one that the funder wants and that fits into the context of the dominant political opinion of the time. Enhance, a drugs awareness and education outreach organisation based in Glasgow, is a prime example. Under the previous Administration, Enhance found itself in an intolerable situation when the political climate was \"just say no\". The organisation's pioneering work, principally with those involved in dance and club culture, was undermined and, finally, ended by pressure from funding organisations that wanted to limit the harm-reduction message that Enhance had so successfully delivered, not only to those involved in dance culture at the user end, but to promoters and club owners, who benefited directly from the information, education and advice provided by Enhance. The organisation found itself at odds with local and central Government; in attempting to meet some of the requirements of the funding bodies, it found that it was no longer effective in delivering its message, because that message had become distorted. A very positive reputation in the club culture was damaged and, eventually, Enhance ceased to function. If there had been an independent body, of the type that we propose, to mediate and communicate with the funding bodies on behalf of organisations such as Enhance, within the context of the compact, Enhance's positive and successful work could be continuing. Unfortunately, that is not the case. Enhance is only one of many organisations whose services can become a political football. Let us hope, however, that the proposed Executive drugs inquiry will end the conflict between zero tolerance and harm reduction. Drug use in Scotland is on the way up, with at least 8,000 new injecting users recorded last year—that figure is possibly an underestimation. There were 276 drug deaths in Scotland last year, and in Strathclyde alone there have been 118 so far this year. Those statistics are a tragic illustration of the fact that we need more than a simplistic \"just say no\" message and an endorsement of the need for work on harm reduction. How do we ensure that the agencies dealing with that vital harm-reduction aspect of the drug issue are part of the new compact? How do we ensure that the agencies, whose priority is to save the lives of those already abusing drugs, are also included? I hope that none among us would question the inclusion of such agencies in the compact, but it is difficult to see how organisations such as Crew 2000, seemingly at odds with current policy, could comfortably sign up to a compact that could become binding, especially as they can barely secure funding even now. It is vital that we work to protect the independence of organisations. The compact goes a long way towards doing that, but we suggest that it does not go far enough. We have to reassure organisations that their purpose and objectives will not be squashed in the face of Government policy; we must reassure them that signing up to the compact will not mean that they become simply another service delivery arm of the Executive to be shaped by Executive direction and policy. An independent development body is not just about building confidence. It could ensure that there is clear water between the Executive and the spectrum of policies that are carried out by the voluntary sector. That would create room for all participants, not just in the drugs field but beyond. Many environmental groups are diametrically opposed to aspects of Government policy—and indeed to SNP policy—and many have found themselves involved in litigation against the previous and current Governments at local and national levels. The formation of an independent body may go a long way towards stopping court action being the only recourse for some in the third sector, particularly those dealing with environmental issues. The principles of sustainability have not been adequately addressed in the \"The Scottish Compact\". I mentioned the polarisation between organisations that are in and those that are out. It is clear that the main thrust of the document is on social welfare. That is vital, but such organisations form only a portion of the voluntary sector's composition. The genuinely legitimate role of environmental organisations such as the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds must not be overlooked or marginalised. We need to give reassurance—and we need to consider the concerns expressed by the organisations—about the composition of the compact and its working party. Our amendment would go some way towards bringing that part of the Scottish third sector firmly on board. The idea of an independent body enjoys the support of many from across the sector, including the Scottish Drugs Forum, Barnardo's, YouthLink Scotland, Fairbridge in Scotland, Children 1st, Help the Aged, the Scottish Wildlife Trust, Volunteer Development Scotland, Age Concern and Crew 2000. It is important to remember, however, that the compact is, as the document says, only the first step on the road to a new relationship between the third sector in Scotland and the Executive. The next step is surely to extend the boundaries of the compact and put in place a framework that will accommodate all sections of the third sector. I look forward to the day when the boundaries proposed in the Scottish compact are rolled back so far that Greenpeace would feel able to sign up to it. I move amendment S1M-240.1, to insert at end:\"and furthermore recognises the need for an independent body to be established with the remit to provide pro-active support for the development and promotion of the entire voluntary sector, and in particular to encourage co-operation between Compact signatories, non Compact signatories and the Scottish Executive.\"", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the Executive for giving us the opportunity to hold a major debate, for a second time, on the voluntary sector. I welcome the initiative as part of the further development of an inclusive democracy for Scotland. It follows on timeously from the Minister for Finance's announcement last week on the provision of funding for the civic forum. Both the compact and the independent body that the SNP amendment proposes would further extend the democratic process in Scotland and would put our nation in the vanguard of inclusive politics and the development of civic society.

There is no question that the establishment of the compact is welcomed, particularly by the voluntary sector and by all the parties in the Parliament. I am sure that we would all commend the considerable work that has been put into taking the initiative forward. At the outset of today's debate, I would like to acknowledge all those who have contributed to that, particularly the Scottish Council for Voluntary Organisations, the Executive and the many voluntary organisations that are represented in the public gallery today.

I hope that the compact will be a milestone in Scotland's new civic landscape and a turning point in the relationship between statutory and non-statutory bodies. Although the compact itself may not represent a complete meeting of minds, it is certainly a great opportunity to take a step in the right direction.

There is scope for greater involvement through the creation of an independent body. The SNP lodged its amendment with one aim in mind: the promotion of inclusion and the extension to as many organisations in Scotland as possible of the benefits that the compact will bring.

Why is the amendment necessary? We have to accept that certain organisations—some by virtue of their democratic structures and others because of their purpose—will find their perceived independence compromised by signing up to the compact. Indeed, that is acknowledged in the document \"The Scottish Compact\":

\"The Compact acknowledges that the voluntary sector and the Government have their own spheres of action with different roles, responsibilities and resources. It is accepted that not all voluntary organisations will have an interest in seeking partnership with Government. Some will prefer to pursue their own objectives without reference to the state. Others may find themselves more often in opposition to the Government than in partnership.\"

The final sentence is the crux of why we lodged the amendment. Organisations must not be excluded from the possibility of partnership, regardless of whether they are in opposition to— or, indeed, in agreement with—the Government.

Many organisations have expressed concern that the third sector could be artificially divided into a two-tier structure: into those that are actively involved in the delivery of social provision and that assist the Executive, in particular, with the delivery of social inclusion policy; and into those that, by their nature, are campaigning organisations and pressure groups. Such organisations fear that failing to sign up to the compact will give rise to a them-and-us situation—those that are in and those that are out, or those that have signed the compact and those that, for whatever reason, feel

unable to do so.

Our aim must be to avoid such division. We believe that it is absolutely essential to put in place structures to enable as much as possible of the third sector in Scotland to sign up to the document. We believe that the establishment of an independent development body, whose remit would be to oversee the compact and to examine and—as it says in the document—to extend the boundaries of the compact, will allay some of the fears that many organisations have, and enable the compact to develop rapidly towards including the whole of the third sector.

A number of factors are vital to the improvement of the quality of life in our country. The relationship between Government and funding bodies has sometimes been difficult—for instance, when a third-sector organisation has found itself at odds with the political ethos of the day. The creation of an independent body would allow us to leave that baggage firmly in the past so that there is no repeat of the unfortunate divisions experienced particularly by those organisations concerned with environment, housing, health care and drug abuse issues.

I want to examine the problems experienced by some of the organisations working in the areas of drugs and health care. We are all aware that the organisations dealing with drugs and health care are diverse—that is their nature. They represent a wide range of views and serve different needs, sometimes with different objectives. In many cases, their objectives are different from those of local and central Government. At one end of the spectrum are organisations such as Scotland Against Drugs, zero-tolerance organisations and the Just Say No campaign. At the other end are those involved in harm-reduction measures, promoted, for instance, by Crew 2000 and the late, lamented Enhance project in Glasgow. This is not the time for a debate about the relative merits of the many, diverse approaches to drugs issues. However, few people would disagree that the work of each of those organisations is valuable in its different way.

Historically, harm-reduction organisations have been in competition with zero-tolerance organisations for funding. Much of Government philosophy on the matter discourages harm- reduction organisations from becoming involved. I do not want to take this debate down the road of drugs policy, but it highlights the problem when challenge funding structures are used. The danger for any organisation that does not sing from the same hymn book as the Executive—this one or previous Administrations—is that that organisation will be forced to change the service that it delivers to one that the funder wants and that fits into the context of the dominant political opinion of the time.

Enhance, a drugs awareness and education outreach organisation based in Glasgow, is a prime example. Under the previous Administration, Enhance found itself in an intolerable situation when the political climate was \"just say no\". The organisation's pioneering work, principally with those involved in dance and club culture, was undermined and, finally, ended by pressure from funding organisations that wanted to limit the harm-reduction message that Enhance had so successfully delivered, not only to those involved in dance culture at the user end, but to promoters and club owners, who benefited directly from the information, education and advice provided by Enhance. The organisation found itself at odds with local and central Government; in attempting to meet some of the requirements of the funding bodies, it found that it was no longer effective in delivering its message, because that message had become distorted. A very positive reputation in the club culture was damaged and, eventually, Enhance ceased to function.

If there had been an independent body, of the type that we propose, to mediate and communicate with the funding bodies on behalf of organisations such as Enhance, within the context of the compact, Enhance's positive and successful work could be continuing. Unfortunately, that is not the case. Enhance is only one of many organisations whose services can become a political football. Let us hope, however, that the proposed Executive drugs inquiry will end the conflict between zero tolerance and harm reduction.

Drug use in Scotland is on the way up, with at least 8,000 new injecting users recorded last year—that figure is possibly an underestimation. There were 276 drug deaths in Scotland last year, and in Strathclyde alone there have been 118 so far this year.

Those statistics are a tragic illustration of the fact that we need more than a simplistic \"just say no\" message and an endorsement of the need for work on harm reduction. How do we ensure that the agencies dealing with that vital harm-reduction aspect of the drug issue are part of the new compact? How do we ensure that the agencies, whose priority is to save the lives of those already abusing drugs, are also included? I hope that none among us would question the inclusion of such agencies in the compact, but it is difficult to see how organisations such as Crew 2000, seemingly at odds with current policy, could comfortably sign up to a compact that could become binding, especially as they can barely secure funding even now.

It is vital that we work to protect the independence of organisations. The compact goes

a long way towards doing that, but we suggest that it does not go far enough. We have to reassure organisations that their purpose and objectives will not be squashed in the face of Government policy; we must reassure them that signing up to the compact will not mean that they become simply another service delivery arm of the Executive to be shaped by Executive direction and policy.

An independent development body is not just about building confidence. It could ensure that there is clear water between the Executive and the spectrum of policies that are carried out by the voluntary sector. That would create room for all participants, not just in the drugs field but beyond.

Many environmental groups are diametrically opposed to aspects of Government policy—and indeed to SNP policy—and many have found themselves involved in litigation against the previous and current Governments at local and national levels. The formation of an independent body may go a long way towards stopping court action being the only recourse for some in the third sector, particularly those dealing with environmental issues.

The principles of sustainability have not been adequately addressed in the \"The Scottish Compact\". I mentioned the polarisation between organisations that are in and those that are out. It is clear that the main thrust of the document is on social welfare. That is vital, but such organisations form only a portion of the voluntary sector's composition. The genuinely legitimate role of environmental organisations such as the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds must not be overlooked or marginalised. We need to give reassurance—and we need to consider the concerns expressed by the organisations—about the composition of the compact and its working party.

Our amendment would go some way towards bringing that part of the Scottish third sector firmly on board. The idea of an independent body enjoys the support of many from across the sector, including the Scottish Drugs Forum, Barnardo's, YouthLink Scotland, Fairbridge in Scotland, Children 1st, Help the Aged, the Scottish Wildlife Trust, Volunteer Development Scotland, Age Concern and Crew 2000.

It is important to remember, however, that the compact is, as the document says, only the first step on the road to a new relationship between the third sector in Scotland and the Executive. The next step is surely to extend the boundaries of the compact and put in place a framework that will accommodate all sections of the third sector.

I look forward to the day when the boundaries proposed in the Scottish compact are rolled back so far that Greenpeace would feel able to sign up to it.

I move amendment S1M-240.1, to insert at end:

\"and furthermore recognises the need for an independent body to be established with the remit to provide pro-active support for the development and promotion of the entire voluntary sector, and in particular to encourage co-operation between Compact signatories, non Compact signatories and the Scottish Executive.\"

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4514296+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1820E139P227C710356", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Curran, Margaret", "ID": 1820, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Baillieston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Curran", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Margaret Curran (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 38.0, "ContributionID": 710356, "EditedText": "Phil Gallie displays a total misunderstanding of the role of the voluntary sector. The voluntary sector has made very clear what it wishes to do. It is in partnership with the Government in certain areas. There is no way that the compact implies any restriction on organisations' independent views—they can still express opinions to the Government. Phil Gallie shows a complete misunderstanding of the entire project. Perhaps he should listen to many more voluntary organisations to ascertain their views.", "EditedTextHTML": "Phil Gallie displays a total misunderstanding of the role of the voluntary sector. The voluntary sector has made very clear what it wishes to do. It is in partnership with the Government in certain areas. There is no way that the compact implies any restriction on organisations' independent views—they can still express opinions to the Government. Phil Gallie shows a complete misunderstanding of the entire project. Perhaps he should listen to many more voluntary organisations to ascertain their views.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4514296+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C710357", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 40.0, "ContributionID": 710357, "EditedText": "I do not think that I misunderstand this issue. I am outlining a justifiable fear, as it is obvious that, when organisations are funded to a large extent by the public sector, they have to follow directions. That is what I am trying to bring to the attention of the minister and the chamber. Labour's approach to this issue is seen most starkly with the new opportunities fund, where there clearly is direction—more than £100 million is diverted from charities to provide a top-up for services that would usually be provided through taxation. That cuts across everything that the national lottery was set up to achieve. The new opportunities fund puts the original principles of the lottery at risk. The money is used to fund the Government's priorities rather than bids by charities that are based on knowledge of local need. In many instances, money is directed to Labour's pet projects. A recent declaration of accounts for the new opportunities fund showed that 100 per cent of the grants that were made went to projects involved in child care. I suspect that that was very much in line with what the Government wanted, but that it was not necessarily in line with what all voluntary organisations wanted.", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not think that I misunderstand this issue. I am outlining a justifiable fear, as it is obvious that, when organisations are funded to a large extent by the public sector, they have to follow directions. That is what I am trying to bring to the attention of the minister and the chamber.

Labour's approach to this issue is seen most starkly with the new opportunities fund, where there clearly is direction—more than £100 million is diverted from charities to provide a top-up for services that would usually be provided through taxation. That cuts across everything that the national lottery was set up to achieve. The new opportunities fund puts the original principles of the lottery at risk. The money is used to fund the Government's priorities rather than bids by charities that are based on knowledge of local need. In many instances, money is directed to Labour's pet projects.

A recent declaration of accounts for the new opportunities fund showed that 100 per cent of the grants that were made went to projects involved in child care. I suspect that that was very much in line with what the Government wanted, but that it was not necessarily in line with what all voluntary organisations wanted.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4514296+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C710359", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 44.0, "ContributionID": 710359, "EditedText": "I accept totally what Johann Lamont says about the importance of women to the voluntary sector. I suspect that 60 to 70 per cent of people who actively give their service to the voluntary service are women—once again, I pay tribute to them for that. That is slightly different from my point about the Government's direction of funding towards its pet projects. In examining funding of the voluntary sector, we can see the effect of taxation on its activities. Local authorities have had to award their workers pay settlements above the rate of inflation; they have had to make up for the Chancellor of the Exchequer's raid on pension funds, but their funding has not been increased to take account of that. The voluntary sector is the first area that local authorities, which are its principal funders, will look to for cost savings—it is a favoured target area. The chancellor—the Westminster politician of the year—has removed advance corporation tax credits, costing Scottish voluntary organisations £40 million a year. He has increased motoring taxes hugely, which affects voluntary workers who are prepared to provide their own transport and which adds to the costs of staff transport for organisations. He has increased the overall tax burden on individuals, reducing their ability to give to charity. He has taken 15 per cent of all public donations for the Treasury through unrecoverable VAT—£46 million a year from Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "I accept totally what Johann Lamont says about the importance of women to the voluntary sector. I suspect that 60 to 70 per cent of people who actively give their service to the voluntary service are women—once again, I pay tribute to them for that. That is slightly different from my point about the Government's direction of funding towards its pet projects.

In examining funding of the voluntary sector, we can see the effect of taxation on its activities. Local authorities have had to award their workers pay settlements above the rate of inflation; they have had to make up for the Chancellor of the Exchequer's raid on pension funds, but their funding has not been increased to take account of that. The voluntary sector is the first area that local authorities, which are its principal funders, will look to for cost savings—it is a favoured target area.

The chancellor—the Westminster politician of the year—has removed advance corporation tax credits, costing Scottish voluntary organisations £40 million a year. He has increased motoring taxes hugely, which affects voluntary workers who are prepared to provide their own transport and

which adds to the costs of staff transport for organisations. He has increased the overall tax burden on individuals, reducing their ability to give to charity. He has taken 15 per cent of all public donations for the Treasury through unrecoverable VAT—£46 million a year from Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4514296+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C710361", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 48.0, "ContributionID": 710361, "EditedText": "In terms of VAT and some other taxes, what Mr Sheridan suggests is the case. However many of the so-called fat cats are people who generate jobs and wealth. There must be a balance somewhere along the line.", "EditedTextHTML": "In terms of VAT and some other taxes, what Mr Sheridan suggests is the case. However many of the so-called fat cats are people who generate jobs and wealth. There must be a balance somewhere along the line.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4514296+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C710363", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 52.0, "ContributionID": 710363, "EditedText": "I recall that VAT rates at that time were something like 25 per cent—", "EditedTextHTML": "I recall that VAT rates at that time were something like 25 per cent—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4514296+00:00" }, { "ID": "C710364", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 54.0, "ContributionID": 710364, "EditedText": "No!", "EditedTextHTML": "No!

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4514296+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1931E120P189C710365", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Muldoon, Bristow", "ID": 1931, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Livingston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bristow Muldoon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bristow Muldoon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 56.0, "ContributionID": 710365, "EditedText": "They were 9 per cent.", "EditedTextHTML": "They were 9 per cent.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4514296+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C710376", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 79.0, "ContributionID": 710376, "EditedText": "I hope that attempts will be made to harness the resources of the private sector in such areas as mentoring. We should look to what is being done in the United States. In Manhattan, banks, law firms and advertising companies are being brought in to help excluded young people in the Bronx, Harlem and elsewhere. Those resources are not necessarily financial resources. They might be manpower—people who are prepared to contribute and who are prepared to give.", "EditedTextHTML": "I hope that attempts will be made to harness the resources of the private sector in such areas as mentoring. We should look to what is being done in the United States. In Manhattan, banks, law firms and advertising companies are being brought in to help excluded young people in the Bronx, Harlem and elsewhere. Those resources are not necessarily financial resources. They might be manpower—people who are prepared to contribute and who are prepared to give.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4514296+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C710378", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Simpson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 84.0, "ContributionID": 710378, "EditedText": "A piece of joint research that follows on from that pilot has been presented recently by VDS and the Forth Valley GP research group. That is another good indication of how things can develop; it also shows the relatively low level of direct volunteering in primary care. Such volunteering must be encouraged.", "EditedTextHTML": "A piece of joint research that follows on from that pilot has been presented recently by VDS and the Forth Valley GP research group. That is another good indication of how things can develop; it also shows the relatively low level of direct volunteering in primary care. Such volunteering must be encouraged.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4514296+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1769E16P282C710379", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Smith, Elaine", "ID": 1769, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Coatbridge and Chryston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Smith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Elaine Smith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 86.0, "ContributionID": 710379, "EditedText": "Thank you. I was aware of that and I welcome Richard's pointing it out in the debate. Although I have focused on two aspects of the compact, I welcome the document in its entirety and I recognise its potential as a starting point for the national strategy for volunteering in Scotland and for the further promotion and development of volunteering. I support the Executive's motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you. I was aware of that and I welcome Richard's pointing it out in the debate.

Although I have focused on two aspects of the compact, I welcome the document in its entirety and I recognise its potential as a starting point for the national strategy for volunteering in Scotland and for the further promotion and development of volunteering. I support the Executive's motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4514296+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1754E157P235C710381", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Peattie, Cathy", "ID": 1754, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Cathy Peattie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Cathy Peattie (Falkirk East) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 92.0, "ContributionID": 710381, "EditedText": "I welcome the minister's comments on the compact. I advise Mr Quinan that, as usual, I have rewritten my speech after hearing what he had to say. I want to say a wee bit about the compact. The compact is an important document. I do not think that it is a straitjacket for the voluntary sector, and I do not think that it is only for the organisations that sign up to it. For many voluntary organisations, locally and nationally, it is a welcome starting point. It provides the opportunity to work in partnership, where appropriate. Like Linda Fabiani, I have worked for many years in the voluntary sector. There have been times when I have fallen out with funders, and I have worn the golden handcuffs, as we often call them.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the minister's comments on the compact. I advise Mr Quinan that, as usual, I have rewritten my speech after hearing what he had to say. I want to say a wee bit about the compact.

The compact is an important document. I do not think that it is a straitjacket for the voluntary sector, and I do not think that it is only for the organisations that sign up to it. For many voluntary organisations, locally and nationally, it is a welcome starting point. It provides the opportunity to work in partnership, where appropriate. Like Linda Fabiani, I have worked for many years in the voluntary sector. There have been times when I have fallen out with funders, and I have worn the golden handcuffs, as we often call them.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4514296+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1754E157P235C710383", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Peattie, Cathy", "ID": 1754, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Cathy Peattie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Cathy Peattie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 96.0, "ContributionID": 710383, "EditedText": "Yes.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4514296+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C710391", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Simpson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 113.0, "ContributionID": 710391, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4514296+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2105E44P74C710394", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harding, Mr Keith", "ID": 2105, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Harding", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Keith Harding (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 121.0, "ContributionID": 710394, "EditedText": "There are many worthwhile things in the compact with which I agree, but this is a debating chamber and I want to suggest an alternative that I know will not receive universal acclaim. The Scottish Conservatives have a long- standing commitment to the voluntary sector—I think that we all agree about that. Through our amendment, we want to show that there is an alternative for the voluntary sector that avoids the pitfalls that we think are inherent in the Scottish compact. The great danger of the compact is that it will undermine the independence and autonomy of the voluntary sector. Labour's talk of partnership with the voluntary sector employs the sort of warm words it always uses to hide its true purpose. The sort of partnership that Labour envisages is unequal. We believe that the Executive is intent on controlling the sector to target its work on Government priorities; that the voluntary sector will be directed under contract rather than free to channel help where it believes it is most needed. That will, in turn, destroy the diversity and innovation in service provision that makes the voluntary sector's contribution valuable. Anyone who does not believe that Labour intends to control the voluntary sector in that way needs only look at the Government's record so far. It is often difficult to work out the Government's purpose, because it appears to have no aim beyond the maintenance and exercise of power. That requires complete control over as many areas of society as possible. Labour has skilfully sold that control as partnership in its grand scheme of so-called national renewal, which is simply a smokescreen. Labour's untrustworthiness is demonstrated by its action towards the voluntary sector since coming to power. While lavishing praise on the voluntary sector, Labour's uncharitable Chancellor of the Exchequer has been undermining voluntary organisations. Some of the figures have already been mentioned, but I think that they are worth repeating. His changes to advance corporation tax credits cost voluntary organisations and charities in Scotland around £40 million a year. His motoring taxes have hit people who work for voluntary organisations and use their own cars. By increasing the tax burden on each individual by the equivalent of £1,500 per annum, he has also reduced people's ability to contribute to charities and organisations. Sadly, the voluntary sector probably feels that it has no choice but to accept what Labour is offering. The Conservatives' approach, however, would create new opportunities for the voluntary sector and allow voluntary organisations to keep their own separate identity. Unlike Gordon Brown, a Conservative Government would use the tax system to help and support people who give money to charities, rather than impose new tax burdens that harm the voluntary sector. By providing support, we would protect the voluntary sector's distinctiveness and, more important, its freedom to act. If that independence is preserved, the voluntary sector's contribution to tackling many of Scotland's problems will be more valuable. Tackling those problems requires imaginative thinking and that is more likely to come from the diversity of the voluntary sector than from the rigidity of the bureaucratic mind. We believe that the voluntary sector has a huge role to play in revitalising Scottish communities. That role would be lessened if its independence were reduced. Our policy of real devolution of power to individuals, families and communities would involve the voluntary sector in the essential regeneration of our local communities. Labour believes that social inclusion can be delivered from on high. It is wrong. Our approach of real devolution, combined with a truly autonomous voluntary sector, is the most effective way in which to address the problems of social exclusion. For that reason, we reject Labour's bogus partnership with the voluntary sector and urge voluntary organisations to accept our alternative approach.", "EditedTextHTML": "There are many worthwhile things in the compact with which I agree, but this is a debating chamber and I want to suggest an alternative that I know will not receive universal acclaim.

The Scottish Conservatives have a long- standing commitment to the voluntary sector—I think that we all agree about that. Through our amendment, we want to show that there is an alternative for the voluntary sector that avoids the pitfalls that we think are inherent in the Scottish

compact. The great danger of the compact is that it will undermine the independence and autonomy of the voluntary sector.

Labour's talk of partnership with the voluntary sector employs the sort of warm words it always uses to hide its true purpose. The sort of partnership that Labour envisages is unequal. We believe that the Executive is intent on controlling the sector to target its work on Government priorities; that the voluntary sector will be directed under contract rather than free to channel help where it believes it is most needed. That will, in turn, destroy the diversity and innovation in service provision that makes the voluntary sector's contribution valuable.

Anyone who does not believe that Labour intends to control the voluntary sector in that way needs only look at the Government's record so far. It is often difficult to work out the Government's purpose, because it appears to have no aim beyond the maintenance and exercise of power. That requires complete control over as many areas of society as possible. Labour has skilfully sold that control as partnership in its grand scheme of so-called national renewal, which is simply a smokescreen.

Labour's untrustworthiness is demonstrated by its action towards the voluntary sector since coming to power. While lavishing praise on the voluntary sector, Labour's uncharitable Chancellor of the Exchequer has been undermining voluntary organisations. Some of the figures have already been mentioned, but I think that they are worth repeating. His changes to advance corporation tax credits cost voluntary organisations and charities in Scotland around £40 million a year. His motoring taxes have hit people who work for voluntary organisations and use their own cars. By increasing the tax burden on each individual by the equivalent of £1,500 per annum, he has also reduced people's ability to contribute to charities and organisations.

Sadly, the voluntary sector probably feels that it has no choice but to accept what Labour is offering. The Conservatives' approach, however, would create new opportunities for the voluntary sector and allow voluntary organisations to keep their own separate identity. Unlike Gordon Brown, a Conservative Government would use the tax system to help and support people who give money to charities, rather than impose new tax burdens that harm the voluntary sector.

By providing support, we would protect the voluntary sector's distinctiveness and, more important, its freedom to act. If that independence is preserved, the voluntary sector's contribution to tackling many of Scotland's problems will be more valuable. Tackling those problems requires imaginative thinking and that is more likely to come from the diversity of the voluntary sector than from the rigidity of the bureaucratic mind.

We believe that the voluntary sector has a huge role to play in revitalising Scottish communities. That role would be lessened if its independence were reduced. Our policy of real devolution of power to individuals, families and communities would involve the voluntary sector in the essential regeneration of our local communities. Labour believes that social inclusion can be delivered from on high. It is wrong. Our approach of real devolution, combined with a truly autonomous voluntary sector, is the most effective way in which to address the problems of social exclusion. For that reason, we reject Labour's bogus partnership with the voluntary sector and urge voluntary organisations to accept our alternative approach.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4514296+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C710395", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 123.0, "ContributionID": 710395, "EditedText": "I am having some trouble with request-to-speak lights going on and off. Does Kate MacLean want to speak?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am having some trouble with request-to-speak lights going on and off. Does Kate MacLean want to speak?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4514296+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1807E84P267C710396", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Maclean, Kate", "ID": 1807, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dundee West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kate Maclean", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Kate MacLean (Dundee West) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 125.0, "ContributionID": 710396, "EditedText": "I did not make a request to speak.", "EditedTextHTML": "I did not make a request to speak.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1751E163P286C710398", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Craigie, Cathie", "ID": 1751, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Cumbernauld and Kilsyth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Cathie Craigie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Cathie Craigie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 130.0, "ContributionID": 710398, "EditedText": "I welcome the opportunity to speak in this debate. The Executive and the Parliament have shown their commitment to the voluntary sector and recognised the important role that it can play in achieving a more socially inclusive society. Many groups and organisations see the opportunities that the new Scottish Parliament has brought them and people are keen to develop new ways of doing things to change the stagnant policies and practices of the past and tackle head on the issues and problems that matter most to the people. The value of the voluntary sector in Scotland— and the value of volunteering—is receiving the attention that it deserves in the new political atmosphere. It is clear that the voluntary sector is high on the political agenda. One of the differences between the Scottish Parliament and Westminster is the structure, importance and powers of our committees. By setting up a Committee on Social Inclusion, Housing and the Voluntary Sector, the Scottish Parliament showed its commitment to placing the voluntary sector high on the political agenda. The committee demonstrates the links between the appreciation and promotion of the voluntary sector and the battle against social exclusion. The Scottish Executive and the Parliament's commitment was further shown last month when the Parliament endorsed the Executive's motion to recognise the importance of the voluntary sector in our economic prosperity and in promoting social inclusion and encouraging active citizenship. The Parliament supported the Executive's commitment to establish a stable infrastructure in which the voluntary sector can grow and flourish. The intention to work in partnership with the voluntary sector is welcomed by all. Labour's commitment to the voluntary sector is clear in the Scottish compact. The compact was developed through wide consultation with the voluntary sector and signifies—I hope—the start of a closer and long working relationship between the Government and the sector. Consultation and dialogue between all parties is the best way for Scotland to gain even larger benefits from the voluntary sector. Through the compact, the Executive guarantees the right of independence for the sector, and that is the road that we should take. As I have often said, organisations should have the right to criticise and be involved in the policy debate, regardless of their source of funding. I am pleased to say that the compact delivers that right. We can only benefit from the direct involvement of the experts, the people on the ground and the people who are delivering services daily. They should be involved in the development of policies. The Executive should maximise use of the sector's unique knowledge and position and its ability to connect with and influence the Executive's thinking. The importance of teamwork, working as a national network, sharing knowledge and expertise and developing training opportunities for volunteers and organisations, must remain a central goal; that is dealt with in the compact. Dialogue and consultation with all involved is the best way in which to harness the value of the voluntary sector. The compact will have a positive and welcome effect on the organisations involved. It is a good start and, as a member of the Social Inclusion, Housing and Voluntary Sector Committee, I look forward to working in partnership with the Executive, the voluntary sector and all involved, for the good of this country.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the opportunity to speak in this debate. The Executive and the Parliament have shown their commitment to the voluntary sector and recognised the important role that it can play in achieving a more socially inclusive society.

Many groups and organisations see the opportunities that the new Scottish Parliament has brought them and people are keen to develop new ways of doing things to change the stagnant policies and practices of the past and tackle head on the issues and problems that matter most to the people.

The value of the voluntary sector in Scotland— and the value of volunteering—is receiving the attention that it deserves in the new political atmosphere. It is clear that the voluntary sector is high on the political agenda. One of the differences between the Scottish Parliament and Westminster is the structure, importance and powers of our committees.

By setting up a Committee on Social Inclusion, Housing and the Voluntary Sector, the Scottish Parliament showed its commitment to placing the voluntary sector high on the political agenda. The committee demonstrates the links between the appreciation and promotion of the voluntary sector and the battle against social exclusion. The Scottish Executive and the Parliament's commitment was further shown last month when

the Parliament endorsed the Executive's motion to recognise the importance of the voluntary sector in our economic prosperity and in promoting social inclusion and encouraging active citizenship.

The Parliament supported the Executive's commitment to establish a stable infrastructure in which the voluntary sector can grow and flourish. The intention to work in partnership with the voluntary sector is welcomed by all. Labour's commitment to the voluntary sector is clear in the Scottish compact. The compact was developed through wide consultation with the voluntary sector and signifies—I hope—the start of a closer and long working relationship between the Government and the sector.

Consultation and dialogue between all parties is the best way for Scotland to gain even larger benefits from the voluntary sector. Through the compact, the Executive guarantees the right of independence for the sector, and that is the road that we should take. As I have often said, organisations should have the right to criticise and be involved in the policy debate, regardless of their source of funding. I am pleased to say that the compact delivers that right.

We can only benefit from the direct involvement of the experts, the people on the ground and the people who are delivering services daily. They should be involved in the development of policies. The Executive should maximise use of the sector's unique knowledge and position and its ability to connect with and influence the Executive's thinking.

The importance of teamwork, working as a national network, sharing knowledge and expertise and developing training opportunities for volunteers and organisations, must remain a central goal; that is dealt with in the compact. Dialogue and consultation with all involved is the best way in which to harness the value of the voluntary sector. The compact will have a positive and welcome effect on the organisations involved. It is a good start and, as a member of the Social Inclusion, Housing and Voluntary Sector Committee, I look forward to working in partnership with the Executive, the voluntary sector and all involved, for the good of this country.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C710407", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Simpson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 151.0, "ContributionID": 710407, "EditedText": "Funded by?", "EditedTextHTML": "Funded by?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C710408", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Patricia Ferguson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 153.0, "ContributionID": 710408, "EditedText": "Just a second. Members must conduct debate through the chair and not across the floor.", "EditedTextHTML": "Just a second. Members must conduct debate through the chair and not across the floor.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2044E178P334C710400", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jenkins, Ian", "ID": 2044, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ian Jenkins", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ian Jenkins (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 136.0, "ContributionID": 710400, "EditedText": "On Friday, I spoke at an event at which the Tweeddale Volunteer Bureau became independent from the Tweeddale Association of Voluntary Organisations and reconstituted itself as Volunteer Development Tweeddale. TAVO's directory lists approximately 150 voluntary organisations. It is astonishing just how much voluntary organisations permeate our lives. At that meeting, I said that I was hoping to speak in this debate today. I gave the assurance that volunteering was high on our agenda. I paid tribute to the role that women have played in this Parliament in changing that agenda and giving it a prominence that it would not have had at Westminster. I was pleased to do that, because I believe that the social fabric of our country depends on volunteers, many of whom are women. Our civic and social life would collapse if volunteering stopped tomorrow. I want to come back to a point that other members have made. The compact emphasises the social welfare element of volunteering. Although that bothers me in some ways, I take it for what it is. That is where we are today. We used to think of the health service as looking after us from cradle to grave, and of social welfare being part of that. As that idea comes under threat, the voluntary sector is filling the gaps and keeping it going. However, we must not take volunteers and their services for granted; a volunteer, by definition, is someone who can take their services away. I wish that the people who are conducting investigations into teachers' pay would recognise that. We must ensure that partnerships feel fair—that the people who are involved in them believe that they are getting a fair deal. We must look after them. It would be a shame—Lloyd Quinan said this particularly clearly—if we did not fund organisations simply because they tended not to follow the Government or the local government line. Citizens advice bureaux can sometimes be a thorn in the flesh of local government, but we should not deny them the opportunity to carry out the great work that they do. I was interested in what Alex Neil had to say about funding. I support his idea of increasing corporate funding and encouraging individual funding. Government and local government funding must also be increased. I worry that, in the compact, we are seeing only warm words and a pat on the back for the voluntary sector. As Linda Fabiani said, we must give the sector the tools to do the job. That includes more money from central Government. We may get it in the ways that Alex suggested—though it would be better coming from Gordon Brown—but we must get it from somewhere.", "EditedTextHTML": "On Friday, I spoke at an event at which the Tweeddale Volunteer Bureau became independent from the Tweeddale Association of Voluntary Organisations and reconstituted itself as Volunteer Development Tweeddale. TAVO's directory lists approximately 150 voluntary organisations. It is astonishing just how much voluntary organisations permeate our lives.

At that meeting, I said that I was hoping to speak in this debate today. I gave the assurance that volunteering was high on our agenda. I paid tribute to the role that women have played in this Parliament in changing that agenda and giving it a prominence that it would not have had at Westminster. I was pleased to do that, because I believe that the social fabric of our country depends on volunteers, many of whom are women. Our civic and social life would collapse if volunteering stopped tomorrow.

I want to come back to a point that other members have made. The compact emphasises the social welfare element of volunteering. Although that bothers me in some ways, I take it for what it is. That is where we are today.

We used to think of the health service as looking after us from cradle to grave, and of social welfare being part of that. As that idea comes under threat, the voluntary sector is filling the gaps and keeping it going. However, we must not take volunteers and their services for granted; a volunteer, by definition, is someone who can take their services away. I wish that the people who are conducting investigations into teachers' pay would recognise that.

We must ensure that partnerships feel fair—that the people who are involved in them believe that they are getting a fair deal. We must look after them. It would be a shame—Lloyd Quinan said this particularly clearly—if we did not fund organisations simply because they tended not to follow the Government or the local government line. Citizens advice bureaux can sometimes be a thorn in the flesh of local government, but we should not deny them the opportunity to carry out the great work that they do.

I was interested in what Alex Neil had to say about funding. I support his idea of increasing corporate funding and encouraging individual funding. Government and local government funding must also be increased. I worry that, in the compact, we are seeing only warm words and a pat on the back for the voluntary sector. As Linda Fabiani said, we must give the sector the tools to do the job. That includes more money from central Government. We may get it in the ways that Alex suggested—though it would be better coming from Gordon Brown—but we must get it from somewhere.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2118E157P454C710404", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Quinan, Mr Lloyd", "ID": 2118, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lloyd Quinan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Quinan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 145.0, "ContributionID": 710404, "EditedText": "Does Dr Simpson agree that a quango is a quasi-autonomous non-governmental organisation?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does Dr Simpson agree that a quango is a quasi-autonomous non-governmental organisation?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C710405", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Simpson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 147.0, "ContributionID": 710405, "EditedText": "Yes.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2118E157P454C710406", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Quinan, Mr Lloyd", "ID": 2118, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lloyd Quinan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Quinan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 149.0, "ContributionID": 710406, "EditedText": "We are talking about an autonomous non-governmental body.", "EditedTextHTML": "We are talking about an autonomous non-governmental body.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C710411", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 160.0, "ContributionID": 710411, "EditedText": "Wind up, please.", "EditedTextHTML": "Wind up, please.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2185E120P328C710419", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Brown, Robert", "ID": 2185, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robert Brown", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robert Brown (Glasgow) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 179.0, "ContributionID": 710419, "EditedText": "We are coming to the end of a good debate, which has been characterised by people speaking with sincerity and conviction about their personal experiences, rather than by the usual political to-ing and fro-ing. I want to draw members' attention to the example of the advocacy project in Glasgow, which I and a number of others visited recently. It is designed, like many other organisations of its kind, to help people who suffer from a disadvantage of one sort or another to increase their ability—to empower them—to deal with their affairs in society. The key problems that people at the project highlighted in my conversations with them were red tape and funding. The project is funded by the local authority. It services a number of different parts of the Glasgow area. However, owing to the tight criteria for funding through social inclusion partnerships and the compartmentalisation of funding sources, it has considerable difficulty in responding flexibly to the needs that it faces. The issue of empowerment is an importantaspect of the Scottish Executive's social inclusion partnership projects and lies behind the support that the voluntary sector receives. Apart from what empowerment does for groups and the people that they serve, it is an important bridge to work for people, who are assisted by voluntary groups or may become volunteers for them. In discussing the compact, we must try to put flesh on the bones and deal with the problems of funding and red tape at local and national levels. Often such problems arise because of a lack of appreciation of the increasingly sophisticated society and circumstances in which voluntary groups operate. At local government level and at national level, there are people whose support for the voluntary sector is too paternalistic. We must, therefore, move towards a scenario in which we operate in a spirit of partnership rather than telling people what to do; in which funding is guaranteed and the time that people spend on raising funding is reduced to a minimum; and in which there is not only a general aspiration to consider the problem of red tape, but a detailed examination of the way in which bureaucratic restrictions inhibit the ability of the voluntary sector to do what it does. The SNP's amendment makes a good point about the need to institutionalise the independence of the voluntary sector, but I do not think that the suggestion of an independent body is right. Such a body would be a quango with all the restrictions that go along with that. It would only put the problems at one remove. Dr Richard Simpson also had a good point when he said that it was the role of this Parliament and its committees to be the guarantors of the voluntary sector. We must all ensure that we encourage volunteering, that we allow the voluntary sector to come out of the cocoon and to develop to its potential and that the activities of the Executive, the Parliament and local government encourage the work of the voluntary sector.", "EditedTextHTML": "We are coming to the end of a good debate, which has been characterised by people speaking with sincerity and conviction about their personal experiences, rather than by the usual political to-ing and fro-ing.

I want to draw members' attention to the example of the advocacy project in Glasgow, which I and a number of others visited recently. It is designed, like many other organisations of its kind, to help people who suffer from a disadvantage of one sort or another to increase their ability—to empower them—to deal with their affairs in society. The key problems that people at the project highlighted in my conversations with them were red tape and funding.

The project is funded by the local authority. It services a number of different parts of the Glasgow area. However, owing to the tight criteria for funding through social inclusion partnerships and the compartmentalisation of funding sources, it has considerable difficulty in responding flexibly to the needs that it faces.

The issue of empowerment is an important

aspect of the Scottish Executive's social inclusion partnership projects and lies behind the support that the voluntary sector receives. Apart from what empowerment does for groups and the people that they serve, it is an important bridge to work for people, who are assisted by voluntary groups or may become volunteers for them.

In discussing the compact, we must try to put flesh on the bones and deal with the problems of funding and red tape at local and national levels. Often such problems arise because of a lack of appreciation of the increasingly sophisticated society and circumstances in which voluntary groups operate. At local government level and at national level, there are people whose support for the voluntary sector is too paternalistic. We must, therefore, move towards a scenario in which we operate in a spirit of partnership rather than telling people what to do; in which funding is guaranteed and the time that people spend on raising funding is reduced to a minimum; and in which there is not only a general aspiration to consider the problem of red tape, but a detailed examination of the way in which bureaucratic restrictions inhibit the ability of the voluntary sector to do what it does.

The SNP's amendment makes a good point about the need to institutionalise the independence of the voluntary sector, but I do not think that the suggestion of an independent body is right. Such a body would be a quango with all the restrictions that go along with that. It would only put the problems at one remove. Dr Richard Simpson also had a good point when he said that it was the role of this Parliament and its committees to be the guarantors of the voluntary sector. We must all ensure that we encourage volunteering, that we allow the voluntary sector to come out of the cocoon and to develop to its potential and that the activities of the Executive, the Parliament and local government encourage the work of the voluntary sector.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C710422", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Communities (Ms Wendy Alexander): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 188.0, "ContributionID": 710422, "EditedText": "Five weeks ago, when the eyes of Scotland were on the Hamilton by-election, this Parliament had its first chance to debate the voluntary sector—or, as it is more appropriately called, the third sector. I said then that we wanted to redefine the relationship between the third sector and the Government in Scotland. I want the third sector to be a leading social partner of equal significance and status to the Scottish Confederation of British Industry and the Scottish Trades Union Congress. Five weeks ago, those aspirations attracted widespread mutterings of accord from all parts of the chamber, but actually the Executive was on probation. Members on all sides said that they were with us in spirit, but asked for the evidence that the Executive would put the third sector at the heart of the new Scotland. Five weeks on, we have kept those promises. The first challenge from the Parliament was that we should recognise the third sector at the heart of government and promote active citizenship. The new voluntary issues unit is now up and running. On active citizenship, there is the millennium volunteers programme, the giving age initiative and the determination that every local authority area in Scotland will have a volunteering development agency. Jackie Baillie is now fast- tracking the review of local councils for voluntary service. On 7 October, Jim Wallace announced a review group on SCRO checks. The second challenge five weeks ago was to give the voluntary sector the capacity to influence policy. If we endorse the compact today, we take a major step forward in that and establish a new relationship between the Government and the Scottish voluntary sector. The issue of independence has dominated today's debate. As Jackie said at the outset, the Executive has never, and should never, seek to co-opt the voluntary sector, but we cannot use fears of co-option to destroy the opportunity for dialogue. I know and I trust the Scottish voluntary sector. It is often at the sharp end of anti-poverty action in Scotland. Is anyone really suggesting that it cannot fight its corner without buckling to the Government? I am not frightened of the challenges that the sector will make and I will not shirk my responsibility to engage in the debate face to face. That is called democracy. That is why the SNP's amendment is old- fashioned. It is out of touch with the way in which we should do things in the new Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "Five weeks ago, when the eyes of Scotland were on the Hamilton by-election, this Parliament had its first chance to debate the voluntary sector—or, as it is more appropriately called, the third sector. I said then that we wanted to redefine the relationship between the third sector and the Government in Scotland. I want the third sector to be a leading social partner of equal significance and status to the Scottish Confederation of British Industry and the Scottish Trades Union Congress.

Five weeks ago, those aspirations attracted widespread mutterings of accord from all parts of the chamber, but actually the Executive was on probation. Members on all sides said that they were with us in spirit, but asked for the evidence that the Executive would put the third sector at the

heart of the new Scotland. Five weeks on, we have kept those promises.

The first challenge from the Parliament was that we should recognise the third sector at the heart of government and promote active citizenship. The new voluntary issues unit is now up and running. On active citizenship, there is the millennium volunteers programme, the giving age initiative and the determination that every local authority area in Scotland will have a volunteering development agency. Jackie Baillie is now fast- tracking the review of local councils for voluntary service. On 7 October, Jim Wallace announced a review group on SCRO checks.

The second challenge five weeks ago was to give the voluntary sector the capacity to influence policy. If we endorse the compact today, we take a major step forward in that and establish a new relationship between the Government and the Scottish voluntary sector.

The issue of independence has dominated today's debate. As Jackie said at the outset, the Executive has never, and should never, seek to co-opt the voluntary sector, but we cannot use fears of co-option to destroy the opportunity for dialogue. I know and I trust the Scottish voluntary sector. It is often at the sharp end of anti-poverty action in Scotland. Is anyone really suggesting that it cannot fight its corner without buckling to the Government? I am not frightened of the challenges that the sector will make and I will not shirk my responsibility to engage in the debate face to face. That is called democracy.

That is why the SNP's amendment is old- fashioned. It is out of touch with the way in which we should do things in the new Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2118E157P454C710425", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Quinan, Mr Lloyd", "ID": 2118, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lloyd Quinan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Quinan rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 194.0, "ContributionID": 710425, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C710426", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 196.0, "ContributionID": 710426, "EditedText": "No, I must go on.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I must go on.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2118E157P454C710427", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Quinan, Mr Lloyd", "ID": 2118, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lloyd Quinan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Quinan rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 198.0, "ContributionID": 710427, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710428", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 200.0, "ContributionID": 710428, "EditedText": "The minister is not giving way.", "EditedTextHTML": "The minister is not giving way.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710437", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 218.0, "ContributionID": 710437, "EditedText": "I have not seen that. Please continue, minister.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have not seen that. Please continue, minister.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "C710439", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Subordinate Legislation (Referral)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26984, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 222.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 222.0, "ID": 26984, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 223.0, "ContributionID": 710439, "EditedText": "Motion moved,", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion moved,

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "C710440", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Subordinate Legislation (Referral)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26984, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 222.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 222.0, "ID": 26984, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 224.0, "ContributionID": 710440, "EditedText": "That the Parliament agrees that the Subordinate Legislation Committee should report on the Maximum Number of Judges (Scotland) Order 1999 and that the Order should be considered by the Parliament.—Iain Smith.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament agrees that the Subordinate Legislation Committee should report on the Maximum Number of Judges (Scotland) Order 1999 and that the Order should be considered by the Parliament.—[Iain Smith.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "C710442", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26985, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 225.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 225.0, "ID": 26985, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 228.0, "ContributionID": 710442, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710443", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26985, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 225.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 225.0, "ID": 26985, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 230.0, "ContributionID": 710443, "EditedText": "In that case, there will be a division.", "EditedTextHTML": "In that case, there will be a division.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "C710446", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26985, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 225.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 225.0, "ID": 26985, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 235.0, "ContributionID": 710446, "EditedText": "Amendment disagreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment disagreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710455", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26985, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 225.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 225.0, "ID": 26985, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 249.0, "ContributionID": 710455, "EditedText": "The fourth question is, that motion S1M-244, in the name of Iain Smith, on the referral of the Maximum Number of Judges (Scotland) Order 1999, be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "The fourth question is, that motion S1M-244, in the name of Iain Smith, on the referral of the Maximum Number of Judges (Scotland) Order 1999, be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "C710456", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26985, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 225.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 225.0, "ID": 26985, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 251.0, "ContributionID": 710456, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C710463", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "North Ayrshire (Unemployment)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26986, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 254.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 254.0, "ID": 26986, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 266.0, "ContributionID": 710463, "EditedText": "I thank Mike Russell for introducing the debate. Perhaps his motion underlines the problems of Ayrshire as a whole. I suggest that anyone looking for the worst unemployment figures in Scotland should go down the Doon valley to the Auchinleck and Cumnock areas, which have real problems. Similarly, in the south of Ayrshire, Girvan has high unemployment. Furthermore, I fully accept that unemployment in Irvine and the three towns—and to an extent in the Garnock valley—is at an unwanted level. Everyone agrees that the infrastructure, particularly the road network, is a major problem in Ayrshire. I remember Irene Oldfather referring to that problem when the Scottish arm of the food standards agency did not go to Ayrshire. It was suggested that that happened partly because of Ayrshire's poor infrastructure. When the road structure plan is issued tomorrow, we expect a positive announcement about the M77. Nothing other than the upgrading of the A77 to motorway standard will satisfy members in the chamber today. However, North Ayrshire is not all bad news—I want to talk up some aspects of the area. Rail services are actually quite reasonable. Glasgow Prestwick international airport is right on the doorstep for companies that want to send goods by air. The airport is fundamentally important to unemployment in North, East and South Ayrshire, as many people work at British Aerospace, GE Caledonian Ltd and other complexes around the Prestwick site. There is hope for the future, and I hope that there will be considerable emphasis on building up the area around Prestwick to everyone's benefit. Perhaps Ayrshire's rail infrastructure lacks sidings and unloading/offloading facilities. However, there are such facilities at Caledonian Paper, which Mike mentioned; and a deep-water facility at the Hunterston ore complex could bring real advantages to North Ayrshire. I find it sad that my party's Government and the present Government have not fully used that facility. We can be proud of the nuclear industry in North Ayrshire. Although the Magnox reactors have performed wonderfully for 30 years, their successful decommissioning shows that North Ayrshire has skills and expertise of which everyone can be proud. Furthermore, Hunterston B power station is performing very satisfactorily. As far as the environment is concerned, a report out today demonstrates that CO2 emissions have reached crisis levels, which suggests that a Hunterston C might be possible in the not-toodistant future. That would certainly help employment in the area. I have to side with Mike about Volvo. I am angry because I know that Volvo had orders that could have been fulfilled expertly and expeditiously in that plant. The workers have been cheated. Perhaps we should examine other aspects of the handling of our economy which, as Mike suggested, damaged Ayrshire's engineering and textile industries at the cost of many jobs. Mike mentioned the image of North Ayrshire Council. I do not think that it will help if I knock that council. However, the council could improve the image of the situation with the direct labour organisations. I am not being hypocritical about this. I believe that, on occasion, one can pass work out to other bodies to get it done better than it would be done by individuals employed by the council. In this instance, however, the council should examine the situation and think about how to deal with it fairly.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank Mike Russell for introducing the debate. Perhaps his motion underlines the problems of Ayrshire as a whole.

I suggest that anyone looking for the worst unemployment figures in Scotland should go down the Doon valley to the Auchinleck and Cumnock areas, which have real problems. Similarly, in the south of Ayrshire, Girvan has high unemployment. Furthermore, I fully accept that unemployment in Irvine and the three towns—and to an extent in the Garnock valley—is at an unwanted level.

Everyone agrees that the infrastructure, particularly the road network, is a major problem in

Ayrshire. I remember Irene Oldfather referring to that problem when the Scottish arm of the food standards agency did not go to Ayrshire. It was suggested that that happened partly because of Ayrshire's poor infrastructure. When the road structure plan is issued tomorrow, we expect a positive announcement about the M77. Nothing other than the upgrading of the A77 to motorway standard will satisfy members in the chamber today.

However, North Ayrshire is not all bad news—I want to talk up some aspects of the area. Rail services are actually quite reasonable. Glasgow Prestwick international airport is right on the doorstep for companies that want to send goods by air. The airport is fundamentally important to unemployment in North, East and South Ayrshire, as many people work at British Aerospace, GE Caledonian Ltd and other complexes around the Prestwick site. There is hope for the future, and I hope that there will be considerable emphasis on building up the area around Prestwick to everyone's benefit.

Perhaps Ayrshire's rail infrastructure lacks sidings and unloading/offloading facilities. However, there are such facilities at Caledonian Paper, which Mike mentioned; and a deep-water facility at the Hunterston ore complex could bring real advantages to North Ayrshire. I find it sad that my party's Government and the present Government have not fully used that facility.

We can be proud of the nuclear industry in North Ayrshire. Although the Magnox reactors have performed wonderfully for 30 years, their successful decommissioning shows that North Ayrshire has skills and expertise of which everyone can be proud. Furthermore, Hunterston B power station is performing very satisfactorily. As far as the environment is concerned, a report out today demonstrates that CO2 emissions have reached crisis levels, which suggests that a Hunterston C might be possible in the not-toodistant future. That would certainly help employment in the area.

I have to side with Mike about Volvo. I am angry because I know that Volvo had orders that could have been fulfilled expertly and expeditiously in that plant. The workers have been cheated. Perhaps we should examine other aspects of the handling of our economy which, as Mike suggested, damaged Ayrshire's engineering and textile industries at the cost of many jobs.

Mike mentioned the image of North Ayrshire Council. I do not think that it will help if I knock that council. However, the council could improve the image of the situation with the direct labour organisations. I am not being hypocritical about this. I believe that, on occasion, one can pass work out to other bodies to get it done better than

it would be done by individuals employed by the council. In this instance, however, the council should examine the situation and think about how to deal with it fairly.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C710472", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "North Ayrshire (Unemployment)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26986, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 254.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 254.0, "ID": 26986, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 285.0, "ContributionID": 710472, "EditedText": "Which vote are you referring to?", "EditedTextHTML": "Which vote are you referring to?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1782E69P279C710473", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "North Ayrshire (Unemployment)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26986, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 254.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 254.0, "ID": 26986, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Oldfather, Irene", "ID": 1782, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Cunninghame South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Irene Oldfather", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Oldfather: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 287.0, "ContributionID": 710473, "EditedText": "I refer to the vote on the amendment put forward by the SNP in the debate on the food standards agency.", "EditedTextHTML": "I refer to the vote on the amendment put forward by the SNP in the debate on the food standards agency.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C710476", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "North Ayrshire (Unemployment)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26986, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 254.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 254.0, "ID": 26986, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Murray Tosh (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 294.0, "ContributionID": 710476, "EditedText": "I have four points to make. I will try to be brief. I will not repeat what was said in last week's debate on regional selective assistance—the minister must be suffering from a bad dose of déjà vu—but I will repeat one point that I made to him, as it relates to the location of USI in the Irvine area. If we are to attract more major investments to that part of Scotland, it is important that we ensure that an array of appropriate sites is being marketed by Locate in Scotland and other development agencies. The point that I made last week about the decisions on the last round of Strathclyde structure plans was that the available high-amenity single- user sites were designated in the Clyde valley— primarily in Glasgow and Lanarkshire. None was identified in Ayrshire. Such sites would be a most useful addition to the battery of resources that are available to promote employment. This may be more in Sarah Boyack's remit, but I am sure that the minister will have some say in those decisions in subsequent planning reviews. Members have today emphasised the point about transport links. There are few good reasons why any businessman should develop in that part of North Ayrshire, given the poor transport links that exist in the area. The A737 did not even make it to the strategic roads review. If, tomorrow, the Executive indicates that its policy is to turn its back on substantial road improvement projects, I am afraid that that will be—and will be seen to be— very bleak news throughout Ayrshire, not least in the Ardrossan-Saltcoats-Stevenston area, which is at the far end of the longest bad communications route in the west of Scotland. The point that was made about the energy tax is very pertinent, and I had intended to make it myself. There is growing concern in many industrial sectors in Scotland not about the principle of the energy tax, but about the fact that other countries are not about to implement similar measures. There is an increasing sense that Scottish industry and Scottish business are liable to be severely disadvantaged relative to their competitors. That is a matter for Westminster, but I do not think that the Scottish Executive can ignore its responsibility to represent Scottish concerns and to report back on Westminster's response. There is one resource issue that has not been raised. During the build-up to the election campaign, I became conscious of the fact that the designation of social inclusion partnerships in North Ayrshire had not done the area many favours. It was a question of a new label and a very old bottle. The local authority did rather a good job of identifying deep pockets of poverty, which could benefit from an injection of funding. When in the future there are opportunities to review that aspect of Government policy, I trust that ministers will look on North Ayrshire in a favourable light.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have four points to make. I will try to be brief.

I will not repeat what was said in last week's debate on regional selective assistance—the minister must be suffering from a bad dose of déjà vu—but I will repeat one point that I made to him, as it relates to the location of USI in the Irvine area. If we are to attract more major investments to that part of Scotland, it is important that we ensure that an array of appropriate sites is being marketed by Locate in Scotland and other development agencies.

The point that I made last week about the decisions on the last round of Strathclyde structure plans was that the available high-amenity single- user sites were designated in the Clyde valley— primarily in Glasgow and Lanarkshire. None was identified in Ayrshire. Such sites would be a most useful addition to the battery of resources that are available to promote employment. This may be more in Sarah Boyack's remit, but I am sure that the minister will have some say in those decisions in subsequent planning reviews.

Members have today emphasised the point about transport links. There are few good reasons why any businessman should develop in that part of North Ayrshire, given the poor transport links that exist in the area. The A737 did not even make it to the strategic roads review. If, tomorrow, the Executive indicates that its policy is to turn its back on substantial road improvement projects, I am afraid that that will be—and will be seen to be— very bleak news throughout Ayrshire, not least in the Ardrossan-Saltcoats-Stevenston area, which is at the far end of the longest bad communications route in the west of Scotland.

The point that was made about the energy tax is very pertinent, and I had intended to make it myself. There is growing concern in many industrial sectors in Scotland not about the principle of the energy tax, but about the fact that other countries are not about to implement similar measures. There is an increasing sense that Scottish industry and Scottish business are liable to be severely disadvantaged relative to their competitors. That is a matter for Westminster, but I do not think that the Scottish Executive can ignore its responsibility to represent Scottish concerns and to report back on Westminster's response.

There is one resource issue that has not been raised. During the build-up to the election campaign, I became conscious of the fact that the designation of social inclusion partnerships in North Ayrshire had not done the area many favours. It was a question of a new label and a very old bottle. The local authority did rather a good job of identifying deep pockets of poverty, which could benefit from an injection of funding. When in the future there are opportunities to review that aspect of Government policy, I trust that ministers will look on North Ayrshire in a favourable light.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2154E194P299C710478", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "North Ayrshire (Unemployment)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26986, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 254.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 254.0, "ID": 26986, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stephen, Nicol", "ID": 2154, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Nicol Stephen", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning (Nicol Stephen): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 299.0, "ContributionID": 710478, "EditedText": "It is customary to thank the member who moves a motion for doing so. I would like to go further than normal in that regard, because during one of last week's debates Mike Russell had some very kind words for Alasdair Morrison and me about our youthful appearance. Today I would like to return the compliment by saying that, despite appearances, Mike Russell clearly still has a young, agile and lively mind that remains razor sharp. I am convinced that, shorn of that beard, he would have run Tricia Marwick very close for the one to watch award in last week's politician of the year awards.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is customary to thank the member who moves a motion for doing so. I would like to go further than normal in that regard, because during one of last week's debates Mike Russell had some very kind words for Alasdair Morrison and me about our

youthful appearance. Today I would like to return the compliment by saying that, despite appearances, Mike Russell clearly still has a young, agile and lively mind that remains razor sharp. I am convinced that, shorn of that beard, he would have run Tricia Marwick very close for the one to watch award in last week's politician of the year awards.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "C710484", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "North Ayrshire (Unemployment)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26986, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 254.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 254.0, "ID": 26986, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 311.0, "ContributionID": 710484, "EditedText": "Meeting closed at 17:53.", "EditedTextHTML": "Meeting closed at 17:53.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4670532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C710344", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fergus Ewing (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 11.0, "ContributionID": 710344, "EditedText": "On a point of order. Rule 13.2 of the standing orders provides for ministerial statements. In the light of what we read in the press this morning, do the standing orders provide for ministerial retractions?", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. Rule 13.2 of the standing orders provides for ministerial statements. In the light of what we read in the press this morning, do the standing orders provide for ministerial retractions?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:00:09.4109084+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1870E181P475C710399", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robison, Shona", "ID": 1870, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Shona Robison", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Shona Robison (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 133.0, "ContributionID": 710399, "EditedText": "Today is an opportunity to applaud the work of the voluntary sector in Scotland—it has a crucial role to play in enriching the life of Scotland. Since being elected, I have met a large number of voluntary organisations of various kinds, from One Parent Families Dundee to the Tayside Recyclers. Their energy and enthusiasm—often in the face of a lack of resources—have impressed me. From my previous life as a community worker, I know how hard such organisations work, often for little praise in return. The voluntary sector involves a huge number— estimated at around 1 million—of Scotland's citizens. They volunteer in a variety of ways and a variety of settings. The diversity of the voluntary sector is its strength, while its independence is a prerequisite to its success. The sector is involved in service provision, campaigning and advocacy. It is important that its campaigning and advocacy role is recognised; that is where some of our concerns lie. During discussions with many voluntary organisations, I have found that, in general, the compact is supported, albeit that there is a certain amount of scepticism about whether it will be implemented. That aside, the view—crucially—is that an independent body should be set up to monitor the compact and its implementation. I have to tell Cathie Craigie that that is what voluntary organisations are calling for, and as someone who worked for the voluntary sector, I am sure that she will appreciate that its views should be taken on board. The main thrust of the compact is aimed at service providers in the voluntary sector. Others in the sector receive an add-on mention. While we recognise the enormous benefits that service providers in the voluntary sector bring, we cannot forget organisations whose role is one of campaigning and advocacy. They can make life uncomfortable for Government bodies; their role is to criticise when necessary. No one likes to be criticised, but concerns have been expressed by many such organisations that the compact will take away their independence, because it will bind them into the Government's agenda. I disagree with Phil Gallie—who, unfortunately, has left the chamber—that organisations should follow Government policy in order to receive funding. That is a dangerous argument. Governments and their policies come and go, but the voluntary sector continues to provide a service. Scotland's environmental campaigning organisations have expressed concerns. The majority of them are unlikely to endorse the compact because they fear that it could become a binding document that isolates the organisations that do not sign up to it and takes away the independence of those that do. Those fears must be addressed. Scottish Environment LINK is the liaison body for Scotland's main voluntary organisations that are interested in securing a sound future for Scotland's environment. Through the joint working group, it participated in the discussions on the compact, but began to feel that the scope of the compact was intended more for service providers and was less relevant to bodies such as itself, which are involved in advocacy and campaigning. It said: \"Link bodies maintain the view that the Compact as it currently stands is not relevant to much of their work and therefore Link should not sign up\". The Scottish Wildlife Trust has also expressed concerns and has not signed up to the compact. It said that \"the Compact gives little or no reference to the principle of sustainability, which they are working towards . . . We feel it should be more responsive to environmental issues\". The Royal Society for the Protection of Birds, which has more than 70,000 members in Scotland, sees itself as fundamentally independent of the Government, and it has expressed major concerns. We must avoid the development of a two-tier system in the Scottish voluntary sector: organisations that sign up to the compact and those that do not; those on the inside and those that are excluded. The SNP amendment provides a solution to that problem and would stop a two- tier system developing. It would allow organisations that do not sign up to the compact to retain a stake in the process and a communication channel with the Executive. An independent body will support the development and promotion of the entire voluntary sector and encourage co-operation between compact signatories, non- compact signatories and the Executive. We believe that there should be an independent body to ensure that the compact works to the benefit of its members and those outside the compact. We want to ensure that the compact is inclusive and does not constrain the independence of voluntary organisations. We want the concerns of the environmental organisations and other campaigning organisations to be addressed. We welcome the compact and, with our amendment, want to see it in place as soon as possible.", "EditedTextHTML": "Today is an opportunity to applaud the work of the voluntary sector in Scotland—it has a crucial role to play in enriching the life of Scotland. Since being elected, I have met a large number of voluntary organisations of various kinds, from One Parent Families Dundee to the Tayside Recyclers. Their energy and enthusiasm—often in the face of a lack of resources—have impressed me. From my previous life as a community worker, I know how hard such organisations work, often for little praise in return.

The voluntary sector involves a huge number— estimated at around 1 million—of Scotland's citizens. They volunteer in a variety of ways and a variety of settings. The diversity of the voluntary sector is its strength, while its independence is a prerequisite to its success. The sector is involved in service provision, campaigning and advocacy. It is important that its campaigning and advocacy role is recognised; that is where some of our concerns lie.

During discussions with many voluntary organisations, I have found that, in general, the compact is supported, albeit that there is a certain amount of scepticism about whether it will be implemented. That aside, the view—crucially—is that an independent body should be set up to monitor the compact and its implementation. I have to tell Cathie Craigie that that is what voluntary organisations are calling for, and as someone who worked for the voluntary sector, I am sure that she will appreciate that its views should be taken on board.

The main thrust of the compact is aimed at service providers in the voluntary sector. Others in the sector receive an add-on mention. While we recognise the enormous benefits that service providers in the voluntary sector bring, we cannot forget organisations whose role is one of campaigning and advocacy. They can make life uncomfortable for Government bodies; their role is to criticise when necessary.

No one likes to be criticised, but concerns have been expressed by many such organisations that the compact will take away their independence, because it will bind them into the Government's agenda. I disagree with Phil Gallie—who, unfortunately, has left the chamber—that organisations should follow Government policy in order to receive funding. That is a dangerous argument. Governments and their policies come and go, but the voluntary sector continues to provide a service.

Scotland's environmental campaigning organisations have expressed concerns. The majority of them are unlikely to endorse the compact because they fear that it could become a binding document that isolates the organisations that do not sign up to it and takes away the independence of those that do. Those fears must be addressed.

Scottish Environment LINK is the liaison body for Scotland's main voluntary organisations that are interested in securing a sound future for Scotland's environment. Through the joint working

group, it participated in the discussions on the compact, but began to feel that the scope of the compact was intended more for service providers and was less relevant to bodies such as itself, which are involved in advocacy and campaigning. It said:

\"Link bodies maintain the view that the Compact as it currently stands is not relevant to much of their work and therefore Link should not sign up\".

The Scottish Wildlife Trust has also expressed concerns and has not signed up to the compact. It said that

\"the Compact gives little or no reference to the principle of sustainability, which they are working towards . . . We feel it should be more responsive to environmental issues\".

The Royal Society for the Protection of Birds, which has more than 70,000 members in Scotland, sees itself as fundamentally independent of the Government, and it has expressed major concerns.

We must avoid the development of a two-tier system in the Scottish voluntary sector: organisations that sign up to the compact and those that do not; those on the inside and those that are excluded. The SNP amendment provides a solution to that problem and would stop a two- tier system developing. It would allow organisations that do not sign up to the compact to retain a stake in the process and a communication channel with the Executive. An independent body will support the development and promotion of the entire voluntary sector and encourage co-operation between compact signatories, non- compact signatories and the Executive.

We believe that there should be an independent body to ensure that the compact works to the benefit of its members and those outside the compact. We want to ensure that the compact is inclusive and does not constrain the independence of voluntary organisations. We want the concerns of the environmental organisations and other campaigning organisations to be addressed. We welcome the compact and, with our amendment, want to see it in place as soon as possible.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:00:09.4109084+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1773E197P503C710421", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hyslop, Fiona", "ID": 1773, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona Hyslop", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona Hyslop (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 185.0, "ContributionID": 710421, "EditedText": "This is not the first time that the Conservative party has been out on a limb in Scotland. Comments made during this debate have reflected that. This is the Parliament's third debate on the voluntary sector, following the general debate on the subject and Andrew Wilson's debate on Scottish Criminal Record Office checks. It is clear, therefore, that the Parliament has a commitment to the voluntary sector and to debating the issues that affect many hundreds of thousands of volunteers and many organisations. The fact that this is our third such debate may also reflect the fact that, until May, the majority of people in the chamber pursued their political activities, technically, in a voluntary capacity. We know the saying that one volunteer is better than 10 pressed men. I am not suggesting that we should have conscription of MSPs, unless of course the minister expects to extend her citizens juries to a national level. Political volunteering may be an odd example, but I hope it will give us some understanding of the time and effort that many people put into voluntary activities and shoring up the fabric of our society. Most people would reflect that those people's contributions are far more constructive than being involved in politics. In applauding the voluntary sector, I will take this opportunity to congratulate the Maggie's Centre appeal in Edinburgh, which provides security of funding to a magnificent service and centre near the Western general hospital. The centre provides a supportive, comfortable, non-clinical environment to which cancer sufferers can go for support and advice. The centre has no statutory funding and running costs of £200,000 a year, and the people of Edinburgh have worked together to raise £100,000 in less than two months. I also pay tribute to the role of the Edinburgh Evening News in promoting the appeal, and to the staff and volunteers who provide the service. Maggie's Centre is one of our success stories. However, in the past month, I met a woman who was involved in a Parkinson's support group in West Lothian. I met her at the West Lothian volunteer exchange annual general meeting. That organisation goes by the name of LOVE, so we get a bit of passion in the voluntary sector. She told me about the difficulties that her organisation experienced with the local hospital, in trying to ensure that people who were diagnosed with Parkinson's were made aware of the local support group. Her group was also losing its treasurer and she was not sure for how much longer she could continue. Both examples are from the health service and from a relatively close area, but they show a difference in experience and in ways of working between voluntary organisations and local hospitals. We must emphasise that the voluntary sector is not just one sector; it is diverse. I agree with Linda Fabiani that the command and control aspects of the compact will be detrimental. Bill Aitken should be aware that Big Sister is not watching him.I deliberately used health examples because, although 48 per cent of voluntary organisations operate in social care, 52 per cent do not. We have to recognise those organisations that operate in health, culture, economic and social development, law, advocacy, education and the environment. There is a danger that in the laudable drive to recognise the key role of voluntary organisations in delivering social provision we obscure the experiences of the wider voluntary sector. However, I think that people who provide social care need stable statutory funding. Many organisations face the problem of getting stable funding. Tensions arise because, increasingly, voluntary organisations are asked to deliver the Scottish Executive's agenda in the form of social inclusion programmes. Increasingly, organisations have to compete with other providers, which sometimes creates a bidding war in which voluntary organisations that would otherwise be first-class partners are pitched against each other. There is an urgent need for strategic co-ordinated community planning to allow us to stop the fat-cat consultants feeding off the poverty industry and replace it with partnership and co-operation between organisations that do not feel threatened by one another. We cannot pretend that everything is rosy in the social policy garden. Suspicions abound between different bodies in the public and social sector. Turf territory disputes arising from a lack of secure funding do nothing to help good social policy in this country. In particular, non-departmental public bodies have suspicions about voluntary organisations. Although the compact exists, until the guidelines are in full operation, we may have good cause to be sceptical about its uptake. Although the Executive can commit the civil servants at Victoria Quay to the principles in the compact, what about local enterprise companies, health boards and other organisations? I hope that when committees meet representatives of LECs and health authorities, members will ask them what they are doing to implement the compact. Too many pilot funding projects are set up that cannot continue because there is an ever- increasing emphasis on new initiatives. Let us have continued funding. Alex Neil made some valuable points. On the corporate sector, not everything has to come in in cash. Many organisations provide good resources in staff time and experience. Sandra White made a very valuable point. We are talking about the role of social inclusion and teachers, but if voluntary organisations cannot have access, the amount of resources and support that they can provide will be diminished. I welcome the independent commission to review charity law. I will consider some of the issues that have been raised in the amendments. The Conservatives have to be reminded that there is more to the voluntary sector than charity. Bill Aitken's comments were perhaps complacent. On our amendment, the remarks of Cathy Peattie and Richard Simpson were interesting. The compact document states that the Government undertakes to \"establish a framework to monitor and evaluate its operations\". There needs to be an independent body. I agree that the committees of this Parliament should address this issue, but, as I think Cathy Peattie said, if the voluntary sector wants it, there should be a framework. There is a difference between a quango and a tango. A tango is a totally autonomous non-governmental public body. The independent body should be a tango. The jury is out on the compact. Our amendment is meant, constructively, to provide a mechanism whereby there can be continuing dialogue and development—perhaps to such a stage that non- signatories feel comfortable enough to sign up— and a positive relationship. There are concerns about how we work; for example, about the advertising of this debate. Many organisations would have liked to be here, but were not told about the debate. It is important that those organisations are involved whenever the Parliament discusses the voluntary sector. That is a test of how we go forward. The jury is still out. The clear message from the contributions today is that we must respect the independence of the third sector and ensure that it does not become part 1a—just part of the first sector.", "EditedTextHTML": "This is not the first time that the Conservative party has been out on a limb in Scotland. Comments made during this debate have reflected that.

This is the Parliament's third debate on the voluntary sector, following the general debate on the subject and Andrew Wilson's debate on Scottish Criminal Record Office checks. It is clear, therefore, that the Parliament has a commitment to the voluntary sector and to debating the issues that affect many hundreds of thousands of volunteers and many organisations.

The fact that this is our third such debate may also reflect the fact that, until May, the majority of people in the chamber pursued their political activities, technically, in a voluntary capacity. We know the saying that one volunteer is better than 10 pressed men. I am not suggesting that we should have conscription of MSPs, unless of course the minister expects to extend her citizens juries to a national level. Political volunteering may be an odd example, but I hope it will give us some understanding of the time and effort that many people put into voluntary activities and shoring up the fabric of our society. Most people would reflect that those people's contributions are far more constructive than being involved in politics.

In applauding the voluntary sector, I will take this opportunity to congratulate the Maggie's Centre appeal in Edinburgh, which provides security of funding to a magnificent service and centre near the Western general hospital. The centre provides a supportive, comfortable, non-clinical environment to which cancer sufferers can go for support and advice. The centre has no statutory funding and running costs of £200,000 a year, and the people of Edinburgh have worked together to raise £100,000 in less than two months. I also pay tribute to the role of the Edinburgh Evening News in promoting the appeal, and to the staff and volunteers who provide the service.

Maggie's Centre is one of our success stories. However, in the past month, I met a woman who was involved in a Parkinson's support group in West Lothian. I met her at the West Lothian volunteer exchange annual general meeting. That organisation goes by the name of LOVE, so we get a bit of passion in the voluntary sector. She told me about the difficulties that her organisation experienced with the local hospital, in trying to ensure that people who were diagnosed with Parkinson's were made aware of the local support group. Her group was also losing its treasurer and she was not sure for how much longer she could continue.

Both examples are from the health service and from a relatively close area, but they show a difference in experience and in ways of working between voluntary organisations and local hospitals. We must emphasise that the voluntary sector is not just one sector; it is diverse. I agree with Linda Fabiani that the command and control aspects of the compact will be detrimental. Bill Aitken should be aware that Big Sister is not

watching him.

I deliberately used health examples because, although 48 per cent of voluntary organisations operate in social care, 52 per cent do not. We have to recognise those organisations that operate in health, culture, economic and social development, law, advocacy, education and the environment. There is a danger that in the laudable drive to recognise the key role of voluntary organisations in delivering social provision we obscure the experiences of the wider voluntary sector.

However, I think that people who provide social care need stable statutory funding. Many organisations face the problem of getting stable funding. Tensions arise because, increasingly, voluntary organisations are asked to deliver the Scottish Executive's agenda in the form of social inclusion programmes. Increasingly, organisations have to compete with other providers, which sometimes creates a bidding war in which voluntary organisations that would otherwise be first-class partners are pitched against each other.

There is an urgent need for strategic co-ordinated community planning to allow us to stop the fat-cat consultants feeding off the poverty industry and replace it with partnership and co-operation between organisations that do not feel threatened by one another.

We cannot pretend that everything is rosy in the social policy garden. Suspicions abound between different bodies in the public and social sector. Turf territory disputes arising from a lack of secure funding do nothing to help good social policy in this country. In particular, non-departmental public bodies have suspicions about voluntary organisations. Although the compact exists, until the guidelines are in full operation, we may have good cause to be sceptical about its uptake.

Although the Executive can commit the civil servants at Victoria Quay to the principles in the compact, what about local enterprise companies, health boards and other organisations? I hope that when committees meet representatives of LECs and health authorities, members will ask them what they are doing to implement the compact. Too many pilot funding projects are set up that cannot continue because there is an ever- increasing emphasis on new initiatives. Let us have continued funding.

Alex Neil made some valuable points. On the corporate sector, not everything has to come in in cash. Many organisations provide good resources in staff time and experience.

Sandra White made a very valuable point. We are talking about the role of social inclusion and teachers, but if voluntary organisations cannot have access, the amount of resources and support that they can provide will be diminished.

I welcome the independent commission to review charity law. I will consider some of the issues that have been raised in the amendments. The Conservatives have to be reminded that there is more to the voluntary sector than charity. Bill Aitken's comments were perhaps complacent.

On our amendment, the remarks of Cathy Peattie and Richard Simpson were interesting. The compact document states that the Government undertakes to

\"establish a framework to monitor and evaluate its operations\".

There needs to be an independent body. I agree that the committees of this Parliament should address this issue, but, as I think Cathy Peattie said, if the voluntary sector wants it, there should be a framework. There is a difference between a quango and a tango. A tango is a totally autonomous non-governmental public body. The independent body should be a tango.

The jury is out on the compact. Our amendment is meant, constructively, to provide a mechanism whereby there can be continuing dialogue and development—perhaps to such a stage that non- signatories feel comfortable enough to sign up— and a positive relationship. There are concerns about how we work; for example, about the advertising of this debate. Many organisations would have liked to be here, but were not told about the debate. It is important that those organisations are involved whenever the Parliament discusses the voluntary sector. That is a test of how we go forward. The jury is still out. The clear message from the contributions today is that we must respect the independence of the third sector and ensure that it does not become part 1a—just part of the first sector.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:00:21.9656621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1783E59P270C710349", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Baillie, Jackie", "ID": 1783, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumbarton" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Jackie Baillie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Communities (Jackie Baillie): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 22.0, "ContributionID": 710349, "EditedText": "The Scottish Executive places particular importance on its relationship with the voluntary sector. I know that this Parliament also values the voluntary sector, and acknowledges its significant contribution to Scottish society. In this debate, we have the opportunity to outline our thinking in taking that relationship forward, recognising the central role that the voluntary sector has in policy development, service provision and community empowerment and, indeed, recognising the sector as an economic force in its own right. We need to put in place the foundations to realise our shared vision for Scotland and create a framework to sort out institutional relationships, enhance local capacity and establish a solid platform from which the sector can grow and flourish. Clearly, given the importance that we attach to the voluntary sector, and given that the public and voluntary sectors find their respective interests overlapping more and more frequently, there are benefits in setting out the principles that should underpin the relationship between the two sectors, when they choose to work together. We talk a lot about partnership, but we have to mean it. We have to understand each other's working methods, strengths and constraints. That means giving recognition to the third sector through a new relationship. The focus of this debate is on a new way of working with the voluntary sector. We aim to do that through the Scottish compact. As many of you will know, the Scottish compact was launched exactly a year ago by Sam Galbraith and enshrines the mutual commitments to partnership working on the part of central Government and the voluntary sector. The compact applies to all central Government departments and agencies. It was developed by a joint working group drawn from across the Scottish Office and the voluntary sector in Scotland, and was subject to wide consultation before it was published in October 1998. The compact is one of four: England, Wales and Northern Ireland each have one. The Convention of Scottish Local Authorities and the voluntary sector are working on equivalent guidance for use at local level. Partnership can, of course, be based only on shared values. The compact is built on those shared values: a democratic society, the rights of individuals to associate freely in pursuit of a common purpose; active citizenship that recognises that the participation of individuals is a key mechanism in our drive for community empowerment; pluralism; and equality. We share the common commitment to quality of services; to collaboration to address people's often complex needs; and to sustainability, the ability to address today's needs without damaging the interests of future generations. The objectives of the compact are to encourage good practice and co-operative methods of decision making and to nurture the voluntary sector infrastructure. We also want to encourage voluntary organisations and charities through co-operation and training; to encourage volunteering as an expression of active citizenship; and to recognise the specific needs and special contributions made by groupings within the sector, such as the black and ethnic minority voluntary sector, organisations for disabled people and voluntary groups in rural areas. The compact was also designed to ensure that we in government measure and recognise the things that really matter; that we co-ordinate the relationship with the sector across public bodies; and that we take carefully into account the impact of policy changes on the sector. The compact aims to deliver benefits by enabling the voluntary sector to have a voice in the development of public policy and by making Scottish Executive departments, agencies and non-departmental public bodies responsive to the needs, and the potential, of the sector. It achieves that by strengthening the dialogue between Government and the voluntary sector, providing channels of communication for its wider constituency. The compact will assist us in developing our strategic thinking and long-term vision; more important, if the sector is directly involved in the design of policy, we are more likely to get it right. The sector has been concerned that its independence should not be threatened by co-operation, collaboration and partnership with the Government. Let me make it absolutely clear that the Executive has never, and should never, seek to own the voluntary sector. That would run counter to our whole thinking about how society should work. All our policy themes—active citizenship, individual participation, volunteering, the giving age, active communities and community empowerment—depend on the freedom and independence of individuals and organisations. The compact defends the independence of the voluntary sector, and emphasises its value as both critic and policy advocate. Let us be crystal clear on this point. We support the sector's right and, indeed, responsibility to challenge Government when we get it wrong. I would expect nothing less. Of course, as it stands, the compact is simply a statement of principles. Those principles have to be put into practice. To flesh out the Government commitments to the voluntary sector contained in the compact, good practice guides for Scottish Executive departments and the agencies to which I referred previously are in the process of being drafted. They will provide guidance on such issues as funding, consultation, policy proofing, partnership working and cross-departmental working. As members will know, we have been taking other measures in the Executive to assist our new relationship with the voluntary sector. Action to strengthen the role of the voluntary issues unit within the Executive has been long campaigned for by the sector under the leadership of the Scottish Council for Voluntary Organisations. As the Parliament is aware, we have relocated that unit to within the Executive secretariat to work exclusively on voluntary sector issues and to champion a more strategic approach to funding and promoting the interests of the sector across the Executive. That signals the central place that the sector has in our thinking. This time last year, of course, it was not possible for Scottish Office ministers to make future commitments on behalf of the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Executive. However, it was hoped that the Executive and the Parliament would endorse the compact or draw on it to develop their own agreement with the voluntary sector. The Scottish Executive has endorsed the compact. My purpose in inviting Parliament to do likewise is to give fresh impetus to the relationship between central Government and the voluntary sector and to signal our commitment to working in partnership with it. This will send a signal of the importance that Parliament attaches to joint working, which lies at the heart of building the new Scotland. The compact must be only the beginning of a process, a starting point for the really hard work, when we must all learn to understand and accommodate each other's working practices. The compact will really succeed if it not only sorts out relationships between Government and the voluntary sector but helps to build stronger and better relationships at local level. We welcome the work that COSLA has been doing on voluntary sector policy statements and guidance on funding. Those will help to build the new partnerships at local level that we are so anxious to achieve, because it is at that level that the real benefits of our community empowerment approach will be delivered to people. That leads me on to the issue of infrastructure support at the local level. While the Scottish Executive already supports the voluntary sector infrastructure with core funding to national voluntary organisations, we also recognise that voluntary and community groups need continuing infrastructure support locally. For that reason, we already provide funding to infrastructure bodies in Scotland at the local level, but there are gaps. Arrangements are in place to ensure that every local authority area has a volunteering development agency by the end of March 2000, providing support for and encouragement of active citizenship. There are gaps in the network of councils forvoluntary service. We want to make sure that community activists in all parts of Scotland have a local CVS to turn to for support, so we have commissioned a review of the present CVS infrastructure. We aim to ensure that crucial services such as training, management support and help with funding applications are put in place. The steering group has representatives from the Scottish Council for Voluntary Organisations and the Councils for Voluntary Service, Scotland, to ensure that we understand the issues. Our success will be measured by how well we reconcile the different needs of the sector, across urban and rural areas, within a more secure strategy that sets the standards for the years to come. The voluntary sector is changing and we all need to recognise the nature of that change and be willing to promote it. The review is in the fast track, and I have this week received the first part of the consultants report. The report by Eglinton Management Centre is tasked with addressing the role of the CVS in building community capacity, developing organisational measures to strengthen the network to support the role of the individual CVS in capacity building, and finding out whether the present structure of funding can be improved. The review will also develop qualitative performance measures, building on the work of CVS Scotland. Let me share with members some of the emerging conclusions. The interim consultants report has recognised the passion and commitment that is common across the CVS network, on which we want to build.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Scottish Executive places particular importance on its relationship with the voluntary sector. I know that this Parliament also values the voluntary sector, and acknowledges its significant contribution to Scottish society.

In this debate, we have the opportunity to outline our thinking in taking that relationship forward, recognising the central role that the voluntary sector has in policy development, service provision and community empowerment and, indeed, recognising the sector as an economic force in its own right.

We need to put in place the foundations to realise our shared vision for Scotland and create a framework to sort out institutional relationships, enhance local capacity and establish a solid platform from which the sector can grow and flourish.

Clearly, given the importance that we attach to the voluntary sector, and given that the public and voluntary sectors find their respective interests overlapping more and more frequently, there are benefits in setting out the principles that should underpin the relationship between the two sectors, when they choose to work together.

We talk a lot about partnership, but we have to mean it. We have to understand each other's working methods, strengths and constraints. That means giving recognition to the third sector through a new relationship. The focus of this debate is on a new way of working with the voluntary sector. We aim to do that through the Scottish compact.

As many of you will know, the Scottish compact was launched exactly a year ago by Sam Galbraith and enshrines the mutual commitments to partnership working on the part of central Government and the voluntary sector.

The compact applies to all central Government departments and agencies. It was developed by a joint working group drawn from across the Scottish Office and the voluntary sector in Scotland, and was subject to wide consultation before it was published in October 1998. The compact is one of four: England, Wales and Northern Ireland each have one. The Convention of Scottish Local Authorities and the voluntary sector are working on equivalent guidance for use at local level.

Partnership can, of course, be based only on shared values. The compact is built on those shared values: a democratic society, the rights of individuals to associate freely in pursuit of a common purpose; active citizenship that recognises that the participation of individuals is a key mechanism in our drive for community empowerment; pluralism; and equality. We share the common commitment to quality of services; to collaboration to address people's often complex needs; and to sustainability, the ability to address today's needs without damaging the interests of future generations.

The objectives of the compact are to encourage good practice and co-operative methods of decision making and to nurture the voluntary

sector infrastructure. We also want to encourage voluntary organisations and charities through co-operation and training; to encourage volunteering as an expression of active citizenship; and to recognise the specific needs and special contributions made by groupings within the sector, such as the black and ethnic minority voluntary sector, organisations for disabled people and voluntary groups in rural areas. The compact was also designed to ensure that we in government measure and recognise the things that really matter; that we co-ordinate the relationship with the sector across public bodies; and that we take carefully into account the impact of policy changes on the sector.

The compact aims to deliver benefits by enabling the voluntary sector to have a voice in the development of public policy and by making Scottish Executive departments, agencies and non-departmental public bodies responsive to the needs, and the potential, of the sector. It achieves that by strengthening the dialogue between Government and the voluntary sector, providing channels of communication for its wider constituency. The compact will assist us in developing our strategic thinking and long-term vision; more important, if the sector is directly involved in the design of policy, we are more likely to get it right.

The sector has been concerned that its independence should not be threatened by co-operation, collaboration and partnership with the Government. Let me make it absolutely clear that the Executive has never, and should never, seek to own the voluntary sector. That would run counter to our whole thinking about how society should work. All our policy themes—active citizenship, individual participation, volunteering, the giving age, active communities and community empowerment—depend on the freedom and independence of individuals and organisations. The compact defends the independence of the voluntary sector, and emphasises its value as both critic and policy advocate. Let us be crystal clear on this point. We support the sector's right and, indeed, responsibility to challenge Government when we get it wrong. I would expect nothing less.

Of course, as it stands, the compact is simply a statement of principles. Those principles have to be put into practice. To flesh out the Government commitments to the voluntary sector contained in the compact, good practice guides for Scottish Executive departments and the agencies to which I referred previously are in the process of being drafted. They will provide guidance on such issues as funding, consultation, policy proofing, partnership working and cross-departmental working.

As members will know, we have been taking other measures in the Executive to assist our new relationship with the voluntary sector. Action to strengthen the role of the voluntary issues unit within the Executive has been long campaigned for by the sector under the leadership of the Scottish Council for Voluntary Organisations. As the Parliament is aware, we have relocated that unit to within the Executive secretariat to work exclusively on voluntary sector issues and to champion a more strategic approach to funding and promoting the interests of the sector across the Executive. That signals the central place that the sector has in our thinking.

This time last year, of course, it was not possible for Scottish Office ministers to make future commitments on behalf of the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Executive. However, it was hoped that the Executive and the Parliament would endorse the compact or draw on it to develop their own agreement with the voluntary sector.

The Scottish Executive has endorsed the compact. My purpose in inviting Parliament to do likewise is to give fresh impetus to the relationship between central Government and the voluntary sector and to signal our commitment to working in partnership with it. This will send a signal of the importance that Parliament attaches to joint working, which lies at the heart of building the new Scotland.

The compact must be only the beginning of a process, a starting point for the really hard work, when we must all learn to understand and accommodate each other's working practices. The compact will really succeed if it not only sorts out relationships between Government and the voluntary sector but helps to build stronger and better relationships at local level. We welcome the work that COSLA has been doing on voluntary sector policy statements and guidance on funding. Those will help to build the new partnerships at local level that we are so anxious to achieve, because it is at that level that the real benefits of our community empowerment approach will be delivered to people.

That leads me on to the issue of infrastructure support at the local level. While the Scottish Executive already supports the voluntary sector infrastructure with core funding to national voluntary organisations, we also recognise that voluntary and community groups need continuing infrastructure support locally. For that reason, we already provide funding to infrastructure bodies in Scotland at the local level, but there are gaps. Arrangements are in place to ensure that every local authority area has a volunteering development agency by the end of March 2000, providing support for and encouragement of active citizenship.

There are gaps in the network of councils for

voluntary service. We want to make sure that community activists in all parts of Scotland have a local CVS to turn to for support, so we have commissioned a review of the present CVS infrastructure. We aim to ensure that crucial services such as training, management support and help with funding applications are put in place. The steering group has representatives from the Scottish Council for Voluntary Organisations and the Councils for Voluntary Service, Scotland, to ensure that we understand the issues.

Our success will be measured by how well we reconcile the different needs of the sector, across urban and rural areas, within a more secure strategy that sets the standards for the years to come. The voluntary sector is changing and we all need to recognise the nature of that change and be willing to promote it.

The review is in the fast track, and I have this week received the first part of the consultants report. The report by Eglinton Management Centre is tasked with addressing the role of the CVS in building community capacity, developing organisational measures to strengthen the network to support the role of the individual CVS in capacity building, and finding out whether the present structure of funding can be improved. The review will also develop qualitative performance measures, building on the work of CVS Scotland.

Let me share with members some of the emerging conclusions. The interim consultants report has recognised the passion and commitment that is common across the CVS network, on which we want to build.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:01:27.8453423+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1783E59P270C710351", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Nov 1999", "ID": 4187 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-11-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26983, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26983, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Baillie, Jackie", "ID": 1783, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumbarton" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Jackie Baillie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Jackie Baillie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 26.0, "ContributionID": 710351, "EditedText": "Sometimes I find it difficult to determine whether the member is a member of the Scottish Parliament or a councillor on Glasgow City Council. However, the compact sets out quite clearly the relationship that we want, not just from the Scottish Executive's point of view but from the viewpoint of local authorities and the wider community.", "EditedTextHTML": "Sometimes I find it difficult to determine whether the member is a member of the Scottish Parliament or a councillor on Glasgow City Council. However, the compact sets out quite clearly the relationship that we want, not just from the Scottish Executive's point of view but from the viewpoint of local authorities and the wider community.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:02:32.7857179+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2133E222P520C710022", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Matheson, Michael", "ID": 2133, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Matheson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Matheson (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 141.0, "ContributionID": 710022, "EditedText": "I am very pleased to be part of a cross-party alliance, with Dennis Canavan and Cathy Peattie, that is addressing the issue of Falkirk. I hope that that will emphasise for the Minister for Finance the concern in the Falkirk area about the present proposals for objective 2 funding. Objective 2 funding has served the area well in recent years. Cathy touched on several of the projects that have benefited from the funding, such as the routes to employment initiative, Falkirk Enterprise, the business parks and business development. It is important that we recognise that objective 2 funding has been an important building block in the regeneration of a community that was very dependent on traditional industries. However, there should be no doubt that the Falkirk area has suffered major setbacks in the past year. As Dennis Canavan mentioned, over the past year there have been several closures and many redundancies in major industries in the local community. I want to take a moment to draw together some of the points made by Dennis and Cathy. The loss of 500 jobs at Wrangler has been followed by the loss of 160 jobs in support businesses in the local community. That was followed by the loss of 400 jobs at BP-Amoco in Grangemouth. It is estimated that a further 2,000 jobs will be lost in support services in the local community as a result of that downsizing. So far this year, almost 3,000 jobs have been lost—both directly and indirectly—in the area. I recognise that objective 2 status has been awarded to the area where the Wrangler factory was based. However, the wards covered by the BP-Amoco refinery in Grangemouth have not been awarded objective 2 funding. I am conscious that the minister may say that such matters were considered when the objective 2 map was being drawn up. I would like to point out to the minister that things have moved on since then—matters have got worse. Cathy Peattie and Dennis Canavan also mentioned the plans for closures at Baird Clothing and Russell Athletic, both of which are clothing manufacturers. About 560 jobs could be lost directly and it is estimated that another 180 indirect jobs may be lost. Almost 750 jobs may be lost in the area—in addition to the 3,000 that have already been lost this year. The areas where those losses will be felt the most, particularly Bo'ness and Grangemouth, do not have objective 2 status. One of the Department of Trade and Industry's key principles in the award of objective 2 status is that an area has high unemployment. Unfortunately, that does not appear to have been applied in this case. I have particular concerns that several wards, including Dawson, Inchyra, Dunipace and Victoria, have the highest levels of unemployment in the district but do not have objective 2 status. I must tell the Minister for Finance that now is not the time to abandon communities that are suffering severe job losses. It is time to help local communities rebuild and to ensure that they can address their current problems. I urge him to meet officials from Falkirk Council to consider the matter, bearing in mind the developments in the past year.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am very pleased to be part of a cross-party alliance, with Dennis Canavan and Cathy Peattie, that is addressing the issue of Falkirk. I hope that that will emphasise for the Minister for Finance the concern in the Falkirk area about the present proposals for objective 2 funding.

Objective 2 funding has served the area well in recent years. Cathy touched on several of the projects that have benefited from the funding, such as the routes to employment initiative, Falkirk Enterprise, the business parks and business development. It is important that we recognise that objective 2 funding has been an important building block in the regeneration of a community that was very dependent on traditional industries.

However, there should be no doubt that the Falkirk area has suffered major setbacks in the past year. As Dennis Canavan mentioned, over the past year there have been several closures and many redundancies in major industries in the local community. I want to take a moment to draw together some of the points made by Dennis and Cathy. The loss of 500 jobs at Wrangler has been followed by the loss of 160 jobs in support businesses in the local community. That was followed by the loss of 400 jobs at BP-Amoco in Grangemouth. It is estimated that a further 2,000 jobs will be lost in support services in the local community as a result of that downsizing. So far this year, almost 3,000 jobs have been lost—both directly and indirectly—in the area.

I recognise that objective 2 status has been awarded to the area where the Wrangler factory was based. However, the wards covered by the BP-Amoco refinery in Grangemouth have not been awarded objective 2 funding. I am conscious that the minister may say that such matters were considered when the objective 2 map was being drawn up. I would like to point out to the minister that things have moved on since then—matters have got worse.

Cathy Peattie and Dennis Canavan also mentioned the plans for closures at Baird Clothing and Russell Athletic, both of which are clothing manufacturers. About 560 jobs could be lost directly and it is estimated that another 180 indirect jobs may be lost. Almost 750 jobs may be lost in the area—in addition to the 3,000 that have already been lost this year. The areas where those losses will be felt the most, particularly Bo'ness and Grangemouth, do not have objective 2 status.

One of the Department of Trade and Industry's key principles in the award of objective 2 status is that an area has high unemployment. Unfortunately, that does not appear to have been applied in this case. I have particular concerns that several wards, including Dawson, Inchyra, Dunipace and Victoria, have the highest levels of unemployment in the district but do not have objective 2 status.

I must tell the Minister for Finance that now is not the time to abandon communities that are suffering severe job losses. It is time to help local communities rebuild and to ensure that they can address their current problems. I urge him to meet officials from Falkirk Council to consider the matter, bearing in mind the developments in the past year.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:55.929179+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C710143", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26955, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 354.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26956, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 355.0, "QuestionHeading": "Out-of-town Retail Development", "QuestionHeadingID": 26961, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 398.0, "DisplayOrder": 398.0, "ID": 26961, "ParentID": 26956 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 403.0, "ContributionID": 710143, "EditedText": "I can guarantee that we will apply those policies consistently throughout Scotland and that we will consider the sequential test, which tries to give priority to developments in town centres and takes into account vitality and viability when any out-of-town proposals are being considered.", "EditedTextHTML": "I can guarantee that we will apply those policies consistently throughout Scotland and that we will consider the sequential test, which tries to give priority to developments in town centres and takes into account vitality and viability when any out-of-town proposals are being considered.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:14.3101891+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1860E111P160C710084", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fisheries Council", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26953, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 257.0, "ID": 26953, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Grant, Rhoda", "ID": 1860, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Rhoda Grant", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Rhoda Grant (Highlands and Islands) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 279.0, "ContributionID": 710084, "EditedText": "Owing to the current ASP outbreak, profits that would have been used to improve facilities in the fish processing industry are threatened. Will there be assistance for that sector to help it improve its facilities?", "EditedTextHTML": "Owing to the current ASP outbreak, profits that would have been used to improve facilities in the fish processing industry are threatened. Will there be assistance for that sector to help it improve its facilities?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:01:40.7395022+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709979", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 46.0, "ContributionID": 709979, "EditedText": "I am grateful to Mr Crawford for moving his amendment in less than the time allotted to him. I encourage David Davidson to be equally brief.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful to Mr Crawford for moving his amendment in less than the time allotted to him. I encourage David Davidson to be equally brief.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C710000", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bruce Crawford: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 89.0, "ContributionID": 710000, "EditedText": "So the Scottish Conservatives are no longer part of the UK?", "EditedTextHTML": "So the Scottish Conservatives are no longer part of the UK?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C709962", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 11.0, "ContributionID": 709962, "EditedText": "As Mr Canavan knows, the Executive has consulted the European Committee a great deal. The proposals that have been submitted, with our support, to the European Commission are not subject to appeal, although they are subject to negotiation with the Commission. As I made clear at the European Committee last week, if the Commission is unhappy with any of the areas that we have submitted, it will be possible to consider possibilities in other parts of Scotland. I intend to return to objective 2 and the proposed map but, before I do that, I wish to turn to the new objective 3. The European social fund provides a continuing and important mechanism to support the training needs of those in or out of work who require extra help. Under the new round, a special objective 3 programme for Scotland has been designed to support our objectives of developing a work force for tomorrow. Much good work has been done with the education sector and voluntary organisations and I look to those concerned to ensure that the new programme delivers results where they are most needed. I am pleased to be able to announce that we have reached agreement with colleagues in Whitehall and Cardiff on the financial allocations for objective 3. The allocation for the Scottish operational programme amounts to some €480 million for the seven years from 2000 to 2006. That represents 10.5 per cent of the allocation to Great Britain as a whole and includes an element to reflect the proposed concentration of objective 3 in objective 2 areas. As our population share for objective 3 purposes is less than 8 per cent, that is an excellent outcome and I wish to congratulate publicly those who negotiated it on our behalf. The objective 3 plan team will immediately consider the implications of the overall financial allocation to the programme for, first, the distribution of resources to individual priorities and measures and, secondly, the performance targets that are associated with those measures. Towards the end of next week, the plan team will issue a consultation paper seeking the views of the wider partnership on these matters; I expect the plan team to submit the revised plan to the Scottish Executive towards the end of November. Following final consultation with the European Committee of this Parliament, we expect to submit the plan formally to the Commission before Christmas. The overall objective of structural funds is to promote economic and social cohesion. Consequently, the European regional development fund plays a key role in supporting measures in areas of need. The concentration of assistance decided at the Berlin summit means that, for the new programming round, resources will be concentrated on substantial areas of most need. As I explained to the European Committee, the Executive, in close consultation with the Scotland Office, played a full role in preparing the UK proposals to the European Commission for objective 2 coverage in Scotland. The proposals target significant areas of need for economic and socio-economic conversion, in line with the requirements of the regulation. They represent a balance between the needs of the different parts of Scotland and between urban and rural Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "As Mr Canavan knows, the Executive has consulted the European Committee a great deal. The proposals that have been submitted, with our support, to the European Commission are not subject to appeal, although they are subject to negotiation with the Commission. As I made clear at the European Committee last week, if the Commission is unhappy with any of the areas that we have submitted, it will be possible to consider possibilities in other parts of Scotland.

I intend to return to objective 2 and the proposed map but, before I do that, I wish to turn to the new objective 3. The European social fund provides a continuing and important mechanism to support the training needs of those in or out of work who require extra help. Under the new round, a special objective 3 programme for Scotland has been designed to support our objectives of developing a work force for tomorrow. Much good work has been done with the education sector and voluntary

organisations and I look to those concerned to ensure that the new programme delivers results where they are most needed.

I am pleased to be able to announce that we have reached agreement with colleagues in Whitehall and Cardiff on the financial allocations for objective 3. The allocation for the Scottish operational programme amounts to some €480 million for the seven years from 2000 to 2006. That represents 10.5 per cent of the allocation to Great Britain as a whole and includes an element to reflect the proposed concentration of objective 3 in objective 2 areas. As our population share for objective 3 purposes is less than 8 per cent, that is an excellent outcome and I wish to congratulate publicly those who negotiated it on our behalf.

The objective 3 plan team will immediately consider the implications of the overall financial allocation to the programme for, first, the distribution of resources to individual priorities and measures and, secondly, the performance targets that are associated with those measures. Towards the end of next week, the plan team will issue a consultation paper seeking the views of the wider partnership on these matters; I expect the plan team to submit the revised plan to the Scottish Executive towards the end of November. Following final consultation with the European Committee of this Parliament, we expect to submit the plan formally to the Commission before Christmas.

The overall objective of structural funds is to promote economic and social cohesion. Consequently, the European regional development fund plays a key role in supporting measures in areas of need. The concentration of assistance decided at the Berlin summit means that, for the new programming round, resources will be concentrated on substantial areas of most need. As I explained to the European Committee, the Executive, in close consultation with the Scotland Office, played a full role in preparing the UK proposals to the European Commission for objective 2 coverage in Scotland. The proposals target significant areas of need for economic and socio-economic conversion, in line with the requirements of the regulation. They represent a balance between the needs of the different parts of Scotland and between urban and rural Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1878E208P502C709967", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Dr Winnie", "ID": 1878, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Winnie Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Winnie Ewing (Highlands and Islands) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 21.0, "ContributionID": 709967, "EditedText": "Will the Minister give an assurance that each of the Highlands and Islands regions will be represented on the monitoring committee? I am receiving worried letters from chief executives on the matter.", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the Minister give an assurance that each of the Highlands and Islands regions will be represented on the monitoring committee? I am receiving worried letters from chief executives on the matter.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709971", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 29.0, "ContributionID": 709971, "EditedText": "Because of the ministerial statement at 12 pm the debate is shorter than scheduled so there is no prospect of being able to call everybody on the list. I will therefore move to the bottom of the list those who were not present at the start of the debate.", "EditedTextHTML": "Because of the ministerial statement at 12 pm the debate is shorter than scheduled so there is no prospect of being able to call everybody on the list. I will therefore move to the bottom of the list those who were not present at the start of the debate.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C709972", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bruce Crawford (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 32.0, "ContributionID": 709972, "EditedText": "Last year, when the European Commission announced proposals for widespread reform of the EU structural funds, it was generally accepted that the structural fund regime needed to be improved in effectiveness and better target the poorest regions. In June, the Agenda 2000 financial package and the structural fund regulations for the period 2000 to 2006 were approved. Agenda 2000 is a series of reforms responding to challenges the European Union faces: the future enlargement of the union to include countries with a total of around 105 million inhabitants where the average income is barely a third of the average in the 15 current member states; and the increased competition as a result of globalisation of the economy that makes it necessary to help disadvantaged regions and the most vulnerable groups in the labour market to benefit from new development opportunities. It will also bring the budgetary rigour required to ensure successful implementation of economic and monetary union. In this context, the objectives and resources of the structural funds for the most disadvantaged regions and social groups had to be redefined. That background creates a necessary context for the outcomes for Scotland. The UK and Scotland settlement contains a number of paradoxes that should be subject to the rigour of debate, with the result made more transparent. It is time to strip away some of the veneer of new Labour spin and look at cold facts. The first paradox is that while we are told that the UK has secured a good deal, the funds for Scotland and the geographical coverage are reducing. On the so-called special deal secured at Berlin for the Highlands and Islands, the Minister for Finance boldly told the European Committee: \"The success of the UK delegation in Berlin, led by the Prime Minister, in achieving these resources for the Highlands and Islands cannot be underestimated.\"— Official Report, European Committee, 19 October 1999; c 185. I say to the minister that overstating the ability of his Government to secure a special deal does nothing to add to properly informed debate. The reality is that the Highlands and Islands lost objective 1 status, whereas Merseyside retained it. To rub salt into the wound, while the Highlands and Islands lost out, Cornwall, West Wales and the Welsh valleys as well as South Yorkshire gained objective 1 status.", "EditedTextHTML": "Last year, when the European Commission announced proposals for widespread reform of the EU structural funds, it was generally accepted that the structural fund regime needed to be improved in effectiveness and better target the poorest regions. In June, the Agenda 2000 financial package and the structural fund regulations for the period 2000 to 2006 were approved. Agenda 2000 is a series of reforms responding to challenges the European Union faces: the future enlargement of the union to include countries with a total of around 105 million inhabitants where the average income is barely a third of the average in the 15 current member states; and the increased competition as a result of globalisation of the economy that makes it necessary to help disadvantaged regions and the most vulnerable groups in the labour market to benefit from new development opportunities. It will also bring the budgetary rigour required to ensure successful implementation of economic and monetary union. In this context, the objectives and resources of the structural funds for the most disadvantaged regions and social groups had to be redefined. That background creates a necessary context for the outcomes for Scotland.

The UK and Scotland settlement contains a number of paradoxes that should be subject to the rigour of debate, with the result made more transparent. It is time to strip away some of the veneer of new Labour spin and look at cold facts. The first paradox is that while we are told that the UK has secured a good deal, the funds for Scotland and the geographical coverage are reducing. On the so-called special deal secured at Berlin for the Highlands and Islands, the Minister for Finance boldly told the European Committee:

\"The success of the UK delegation in Berlin, led by the Prime Minister, in achieving these resources for the Highlands and Islands cannot be underestimated.\"— [Official Report, European Committee, 19 October 1999; c 185.]

I say to the minister that overstating the ability of his Government to secure a special deal does nothing to add to properly informed debate. The reality is that the Highlands and Islands lost objective 1 status, whereas Merseyside retained it. To rub salt into the wound, while the Highlands and Islands lost out, Cornwall, West Wales and the Welsh valleys as well as South Yorkshire gained objective 1 status.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C709978", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bruce Crawford: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 44.0, "ContributionID": 709978, "EditedText": "If there was ever a distortion, that is it. The First Minister said clearly that if the money that the Executive gets from Europe goes up, the money from the Treasury goes down. The effect has been to deny Scotland approximately £730 million since 1993—the equivalent of £150 for every man, woman and child. Since 1993, Scotland has been cheated out of £730 million of public expenditure that should have found its way into the Scottish economy. Like the minister, I am glad that the Commission is taking a more serious interest in the issue of additionality, has introduced more robust regulation and has put in place more stringent monitoring and auditing trails. That will mean that the malpractices that were introduced by the Tories cannot be continued under new Labour, and will be exposed at European level if they do. At last, Scotland can hope to get its full block grant. We cannot leave this matter to Europe: we need to sort out this mess here, and we will be asking the Finance Committee and the European Committee to carry out a joint inquiry into this scandal, to ensure that the Government properly is held to account for its actions. This matter shows that Scotland is merely a regional appendage. It proves that Scotland would fare much better as a full, independent member state of the European Union. It is time for the Executive to stop its misleading spinning. It is not fair on the people of the Highlands and Islands. It leads to a lack of transparency, mistrust and bad government. As for additionality, it is one of the scandals of the past quarter of a century. The Executive must stop using methods of Tory malpractice, but if it insists, this Parliament should be prepared to drag it kicking and screaming through the committee process. Scotland needs this scandal to be sorted out now, once and for all. I move amendment S1M-230.2, to leave out from \"welcomes\" to end and insert, \"expresses its concern over the unsatisfactory consultation process with regard to the European Structural Funds Programme for the Highlands and Islands, and asks the Scottish Executive to review the wards eligible under the Objective 2 Programme using the latest information and giving attention to the need to address and remove a number of anomalies.\"", "EditedTextHTML": "If there was ever a distortion, that is it. The First Minister said clearly that if the money that the Executive gets from Europe goes up, the money from the Treasury goes down. The effect has been to deny Scotland approximately £730 million since 1993—the equivalent of £150 for every man, woman and child. Since 1993, Scotland has been cheated out of £730 million of public expenditure that should have found its way into the Scottish economy.

Like the minister, I am glad that the Commission is taking a more serious interest in the issue of additionality, has introduced more robust regulation and has put in place more stringent monitoring and auditing trails. That will mean that the malpractices that were introduced by the Tories cannot be continued under new Labour, and will be exposed at European level if they do. At last, Scotland can hope to get its full block grant. We cannot leave this matter to Europe: we need to sort out this mess here, and we will be asking the Finance Committee and the European Committee to carry out a joint inquiry into this scandal, to ensure that the Government properly is held to account for its actions.

This matter shows that Scotland is merely a regional appendage. It proves that Scotland would fare much better as a full, independent member state of the European Union. It is time for the Executive to stop its misleading spinning. It is not fair on the people of the Highlands and Islands. It leads to a lack of transparency, mistrust and bad government. As for additionality, it is one of the scandals of the past quarter of a century. The Executive must stop using methods of Tory malpractice, but if it insists, this Parliament should be prepared to drag it kicking and screaming through the committee process. Scotland needs this scandal to be sorted out now, once and for all.

I move amendment S1M-230.2, to leave out from \"welcomes\" to end and insert,

\"expresses its concern over the unsatisfactory consultation process with regard to the European Structural Funds Programme for the Highlands and Islands, and asks the Scottish Executive to review the wards eligible under the Objective 2 Programme using the latest information and giving attention to the need to address and remove a number of anomalies.\"

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C709980", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr David Davidson (North-East Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 49.0, "ContributionID": 709980, "EditedText": "I always pay attention to what you have to say, Sir David. You will not be surprised that I do not totally agree with the minister's motion, which suggests that we endorse without question the policy priorities of the Executive. However, I acknowledge the hard work that has been done by the many local and national agencies in preparing for the submissions to the Commission. I am aware of the tremendous efforts of Scotland's local authorities in conducting the mapping exercise. In particular, I am grateful to Aberdeen City Council and Aberdeenshire Council for the help that they have given me in trying to understand the mapping exercise. It not only assisted me in understanding the process, but it helped me to appreciate how much effort was put in by so many different organisations in Scotland—not all of which were part of the Executive—which helped to put the package for Scotland into the UK proposals. I appreciate that there will be disappointment in the many areas that will no longer receive the previous levels of support, but that is a reflection of the fact that some regions have improved in comparative terms. Surely that is a positive thing. I note the minister's comment that nobody wants to have to have objective 1 status. We must move forward with some positive views as to how the Executive and this Parliament can play a role in the process. The SNP has agreed to the fairness of the principle that funds are focused on the areas of greatest need. There will always be winners and losers. The current process must be used to advance our thinking on how to refine further the targeting of the funds by recognising that so-called affluent wards contain strategic activities that have been excluded this time. I ask the Executive to institute a review early in the new year of how that and other anomalies can be tackled in future. If the minister is prepared to take on board that point while the current round is on-going, the Conservative party will be supportive and will participate in a positive manner. I will leave one of my colleagues to address other points on the issue. It cannot be stressed enough that structural fund expenditure is expected to complement national policies and actions: it is not there to replace resources that should be allocated by the Government. On that issue I have some sympathy with Mr Crawford, but there is a difference between complementing and his version of additionality. He seems to forget that additionality applies to the UK, and that what we do internally in the UK has, in the past, been a successful way of ensuring that Scotland received a fair share of the contributions from Europe. I trust that we shall never see the day when honest Jack tries to pass off some of those resources as new money, or Executive spending. In the spirit of new politics, in this Parliament we expect the Executive to clearly label such moneys correctly as and when they are utilised. Where access to the funds depends on matched funding, the Executive and its agencies must play their part in ensuring that the potential benefits are maximised. Many of the funds are dependent on other moneys being linked to them. It is a key responsibility of the Executive to ensure that no opportunity is missed. As far as the Conservatives are concerned, if that involves private as well as public money, that is fine—as long as it is conducted correctly. I do not think that Andrew and his colleagues have much sympathy with that. I will stop at this point, if Andrew has something to add.", "EditedTextHTML": "I always pay attention to what you have to say, Sir David. You will not be surprised that I do not totally agree with the minister's motion, which suggests that we endorse without question the policy priorities of the Executive. However, I acknowledge the hard work that has been done by the many local and national agencies in preparing for the submissions to the Commission. I am aware of the tremendous efforts of Scotland's local authorities in conducting the mapping exercise. In particular, I am grateful to Aberdeen City Council and Aberdeenshire Council for the help that they have given me in trying to understand the mapping exercise. It not only assisted me in understanding the process, but it helped me to appreciate how much effort was put in by so many different organisations in Scotland—not all of which were part of the Executive—which helped to put the package for Scotland into the UK proposals.

I appreciate that there will be disappointment in the many areas that will no longer receive the previous levels of support, but that is a reflection of the fact that some regions have improved in comparative terms. Surely that is a positive thing. I note the minister's comment that nobody wants to have to have objective 1 status. We must move forward with some positive views as to how the Executive and this Parliament can play a role in the process.

The SNP has agreed to the fairness of the principle that funds are focused on the areas of greatest need. There will always be winners and losers. The current process must be used to advance our thinking on how to refine further the targeting of the funds by recognising that so-called affluent wards contain strategic activities that have been excluded this time. I ask the Executive to institute a review early in the new year of how that and other anomalies can be tackled in future. If the minister is prepared to take on board that point while the current round is on-going, the Conservative party will be supportive and will participate in a positive manner. I will leave one of my colleagues to address other points on the issue.

It cannot be stressed enough that structural fund expenditure is expected to complement national policies and actions: it is not there to replace resources that should be allocated by the Government. On that issue I have some sympathy with Mr Crawford, but there is a difference between complementing and his version of

additionality. He seems to forget that additionality applies to the UK, and that what we do internally in the UK has, in the past, been a successful way of ensuring that Scotland received a fair share of the contributions from Europe. I trust that we shall never see the day when honest Jack tries to pass off some of those resources as new money, or Executive spending. In the spirit of new politics, in this Parliament we expect the Executive to clearly label such moneys correctly as and when they are utilised.

Where access to the funds depends on matched funding, the Executive and its agencies must play their part in ensuring that the potential benefits are maximised. Many of the funds are dependent on other moneys being linked to them. It is a key responsibility of the Executive to ensure that no opportunity is missed. As far as the Conservatives are concerned, if that involves private as well as public money, that is fine—as long as it is conducted correctly. I do not think that Andrew and his colleagues have much sympathy with that. I will stop at this point, if Andrew has something to add.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2140E187P335C709985", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Rumbles, Mike", "ID": 2140, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Rumbles", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Mike Rumbles (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 59.0, "ContributionID": 709985, "EditedText": "Will Mr Davidson give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr Davidson give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C709993", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bruce Crawford rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 75.0, "ContributionID": 709993, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710002", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 93.0, "ContributionID": 710002, "EditedText": "Mr Davidson, you need to wind up now.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Davidson, you need to wind up now.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C710003", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Davidson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 95.0, "ContributionID": 710003, "EditedText": "The new objective 3 has some admirable aims, but the primary focus of these funds must be to regenerate employment across Scotland. Infrastructure spending is required from the funds, and not just in the central belt. Areas such as Aberdeen, with a perceived affluence that is based on oil, are missing out in this package. That is symptomatic of the fact that we need to get on with the ward-mapping exercise. The SNP has made that point, and I believe that the minister has taken it on board. We have something in common. We must take a long, hard look at the threats to our economy and its stability, along with the opportunities that are on offer. This may not be a perfect solution, but I think that we have done reasonably well over the years. As this programme moves forward, we must look to the next six or seven years. We must take action now to ensure that the use of these funds produces the outcomes that not only the people of Scotland expect, but Europe expects.", "EditedTextHTML": "The new objective 3 has some admirable aims, but the primary focus of these funds must be to regenerate employment across Scotland. Infrastructure spending is required from the funds, and not just in the central belt. Areas such as Aberdeen, with a perceived affluence that is based on oil, are missing out in this package. That is symptomatic of the fact that we need to get on with the ward-mapping exercise. The SNP has made that point, and I believe that the minister has taken it on board. We have something in common.

We must take a long, hard look at the threats to our economy and its stability, along with the opportunities that are on offer. This may not be a perfect solution, but I think that we have done reasonably well over the years. As this programme moves forward, we must look to the next six or seven years. We must take action now to ensure that the use of these funds produces the outcomes that not only the people of Scotland expect, but Europe expects.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C710008", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Davidson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 105.0, "ContributionID": 710008, "EditedText": "I look forward with great pleasure to seeing what positive contribution and how much of their own thinking, rather than mere rubber- stamping of their colleagues' position, the Liberal Democrats will bring to today's debate. Presiding Officer, there are other members who wish to speak, so I will happily sit down.", "EditedTextHTML": "I look forward with great pleasure to seeing what positive contribution and how much of their own thinking, rather than mere rubber- stamping of their colleagues' position, the Liberal Democrats will bring to today's debate. Presiding Officer, there are other members who wish to speak, so I will happily sit down.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710009", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 107.0, "ContributionID": 710009, "EditedText": "I repeat that there is no prospect of calling all members who wish to speak, so the occupants of the chair this morning will be keeping speakers strictly to a four-minute time limit.", "EditedTextHTML": "I repeat that there is no prospect of calling all members who wish to speak, so the occupants of the chair this morning will be keeping speakers strictly to a four-minute time limit.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2223E203P342C710012", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scott, Tavish", "ID": 2223, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Shetland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tavish Scott", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tavish Scott: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 114.0, "ContributionID": 710012, "EditedText": "If Bruce Crawford had made that point in his speech, it might be a fair comment, but he did not say anything about that. I thought that members were supposed to speak to their amendments. I take the point about the European Committee, but what is important is how the plan team put its proposals together, how it introduced its ideas and how it came up with what it considered to be the best use of the moneys that were available. Having been given some information about the benefits of the devolution settlement in the context of European funding, it seems to me that we need to be aware of the wider context. I understand that, earlier this autumn, Stephen Boyle of the Royal Bank of Scotland gave evidence to the Finance Committee. He said that \"Identifiable spending per capita in Scotland was 19% higher than the UK average\" and that \"Per capita spending in Scotland\"was\"higher in all programmes than in UK\".He also said that what he called the \"Scottish ‘premium'\" was \"greatest in agriculture, housing, environmental services & ‘economic development'\". Those statements were illustrated in a table. Current spending on structural funds amounts to some £150 million per year—1 per cent of the assigned budget. In that context, surely structural funds complement national and local social and economic development programmes. The other issue that I would ask Mr Crawford to consider is the additionality point. If the additionality point is so much at odds with what these plans are doing and with the submission that the Executive is making, the Commission will say that and find difficulties with the plans. However, that has not been the experience in the past. We will see the proof of the pudding in what happens when the plans are put forward. I was never happy about arguing that the Highlands and Islands was a desperately poor area. To rabbit on about that demeans the work that many local authorities and local enterprise companies did when seeking the son of objective 1 funding—the transitional support. Sparsity of population was the key to that. We should pay credit to the work that those people did rather than pour scorn on their efforts. I believe that more money from the Highlands and Islands programme could be allocated to fisheries. Because the programme is shorter, we need more time. The moneys will be cut unless we can increase the allocation. I want to finish by reiterating Mr Davidson's point about the role of the European Committee. Like the other committees of the Parliament, the European Committee has a role in monitoring and putting in place mechanisms to ensure that these programmes achieve their objectives.", "EditedTextHTML": "If Bruce Crawford had made that point in his speech, it might be a fair comment, but he did not say anything about that. I thought that members were supposed to speak to their amendments.

I take the point about the European Committee, but what is important is how the plan team put its proposals together, how it introduced its ideas and how it came up with what it considered to be the best use of the moneys that were available.

Having been given some information about the benefits of the devolution settlement in the context of European funding, it seems to me that we need to be aware of the wider context. I understand that, earlier this autumn, Stephen Boyle of the Royal Bank of Scotland gave evidence to the Finance Committee. He said that

\"Identifiable spending per capita in Scotland was 19% higher than the UK average\" and that

\"Per capita spending in Scotland\"

was

\"higher in all programmes than in UK\".

He also said that what he called the \"Scottish ‘premium'\" was

\"greatest in agriculture, housing, environmental services & ‘economic development'\".

Those statements were illustrated in a table. Current spending on structural funds amounts to some £150 million per year—1 per cent of the assigned budget. In that context, surely structural funds complement national and local social and economic development programmes.

The other issue that I would ask Mr Crawford to consider is the additionality point. If the additionality point is so much at odds with what these plans are doing and with the submission that the Executive is making, the Commission will say that and find difficulties with the plans. However, that has not been the experience in the past. We will see the proof of the pudding in what happens when the plans are put forward.

I was never happy about arguing that the Highlands and Islands was a desperately poor area. To rabbit on about that demeans the work that many local authorities and local enterprise companies did when seeking the son of objective 1 funding—the transitional support. Sparsity of population was the key to that. We should pay credit to the work that those people did rather than pour scorn on their efforts.

I believe that more money from the Highlands and Islands programme could be allocated to fisheries. Because the programme is shorter, we need more time. The moneys will be cut unless we can increase the allocation.

I want to finish by reiterating Mr Davidson's point about the role of the European Committee. Like the other committees of the Parliament, the European Committee has a role in monitoring and putting in place mechanisms to ensure that these programmes achieve their objectives.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1916E38P70C710033", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Ben", "ID": 1916, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ben Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ben Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 166.0, "ContributionID": 710033, "EditedText": "I shall give way to the SNP, because I do not know what party Keith is in.", "EditedTextHTML": "I shall give way to the SNP, because I do not know what party Keith is in.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C710026", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 150.0, "ContributionID": 710026, "EditedText": "Before I call Nora Radcliffe, I should remind members that the Presiding Officers, in determining today's order of speakers, will have regard to those members who were in the chamber for the opening statements by the minister and the Opposition.", "EditedTextHTML": "Before I call Nora Radcliffe, I should remind members that the Presiding Officers, in determining today's order of speakers, will have regard to those members who were in the chamber for the opening statements by the minister and the Opposition.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1962E35P56C710021", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mundell, David", "ID": 1962, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Mundell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David Mundell (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 138.0, "ContributionID": 710021, "EditedText": "I welcome the opportunity to speak in today's debate. As a member of the European Committee, I have already had the opportunity to scrutinise the proposals. It has been useful for us that Mr McConnell has twice attended committee meetings for detailed questioning. Much has been said about how closely the Executive has worked with Westminster, the Secretary of State for Scotland and other ministers, but I put on record that I was disappointed that the Secretary of State for Scotland, Dr Reid, did not respond positively to an invitation to meet the European Committee. There is no doubt that European funding issues take us into some of the greyest constitutional areas. It is important that the secretary of state works closely not only with the Executive but with the Parliament and its committees.As other members have said, the matter is extremely complex—so complex that at last week's European Committee meeting, Bruce Crawford got Andrew Wilson in to ask a question on his behalf—Andrew then shuffled off. That seemed very unusual. Similarly, at a previous meeting, we had to question the Minister for Finance about his nuts, although fortunately it was NUTS 5, which he has decided upon as the determining methodology. There are imperfections: we have heard much about the inconsistencies produced by ward boundaries, particularly in South Ayrshire, Dundee and Falkirk—about which Cathy Peattie made representations to the committee—and Stirling. I accept the minister's approach, which targets transitional aid at the wards in those areas, rather than tinkering with the process. I am pleased that Mr Sheridan's rather divisive amendment has been withdrawn. It is most unhelpful to get into a discussion about whether one area has a greater claim than others— particularly in reference to the Borders, or Dumfries and Galloway. There has been a perception that, because those areas have great natural beauty and pockets of apparent prosperity, they do not have difficult economic circumstances, but Dumfries and Galloway has some of the worst unemployment statistics and levels of take-home pay in Scotland. Entrepreneurial activity has not reached its height in the area. I welcome funding for Dumfries and Galloway. It is necessary, not simply because the area is large—when coloured in, it takes up a greater part of the map. The Minister for Finance has invited written questions on issues arising from today's debate. I will write to him about objective 3 funding. I have received some representations saying that it is difficult for smaller organisations in rural areas to make claims for relatively small sums under objective 3 funding. I hope that the minister will consider the matter.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the opportunity to speak in today's debate. As a member of the European Committee, I have already had the opportunity to scrutinise the proposals. It has been useful for us that Mr McConnell has twice attended committee meetings for detailed questioning.

Much has been said about how closely the Executive has worked with Westminster, the Secretary of State for Scotland and other ministers, but I put on record that I was disappointed that the Secretary of State for Scotland, Dr Reid, did not respond positively to an invitation to meet the European Committee. There is no doubt that European funding issues take us into some of the greyest constitutional areas. It is important that the secretary of state works closely not only with the Executive but with the Parliament

and its committees.

As other members have said, the matter is extremely complex—so complex that at last week's European Committee meeting, Bruce Crawford got Andrew Wilson in to ask a question on his behalf—Andrew then shuffled off. That seemed very unusual. Similarly, at a previous meeting, we had to question the Minister for Finance about his nuts, although fortunately it was NUTS 5, which he has decided upon as the determining methodology.

There are imperfections: we have heard much about the inconsistencies produced by ward boundaries, particularly in South Ayrshire, Dundee and Falkirk—about which Cathy Peattie made representations to the committee—and Stirling. I accept the minister's approach, which targets transitional aid at the wards in those areas, rather than tinkering with the process.

I am pleased that Mr Sheridan's rather divisive amendment has been withdrawn. It is most unhelpful to get into a discussion about whether one area has a greater claim than others— particularly in reference to the Borders, or Dumfries and Galloway. There has been a perception that, because those areas have great natural beauty and pockets of apparent prosperity, they do not have difficult economic circumstances, but Dumfries and Galloway has some of the worst unemployment statistics and levels of take-home pay in Scotland. Entrepreneurial activity has not reached its height in the area. I welcome funding for Dumfries and Galloway. It is necessary, not simply because the area is large—when coloured in, it takes up a greater part of the map.

The Minister for Finance has invited written questions on issues arising from today's debate. I will write to him about objective 3 funding. I have received some representations saying that it is difficult for smaller organisations in rural areas to make claims for relatively small sums under objective 3 funding. I hope that the minister will consider the matter.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2029E47P167C710023", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Henry, Hugh", "ID": 2029, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Hugh Henry", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Hugh Henry (Paisley South) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 144.0, "ContributionID": 710023, "EditedText": "I am sorry that Dr Ewing did not feel able to take my intervention earlier; I would have asked her to confirm that when the original proposals for the Highlands and Islands were drawn up, it was recognised that the Highlands and Islands were not included in objective 1. The only reason the Highlands and Islands have been included in the financial assistance is the work carried out by the United Kingdom Government. Scotland's local authorities undertook part of the lobbying to influence the UK Government. Earlier, the positive role that the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities played was mentioned. It was because of the work carried out by COSLA that the United Kingdom Government came to recognise the case for the special deal that was done. In general, the minister was right to say that this is a good deal for Scotland. He has described the coverage that the Scottish population has in comparison with the rest of Europe or the United Kingdom.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry that Dr Ewing did not feel able to take my intervention earlier; I would have asked her to confirm that when the original proposals for the Highlands and Islands were drawn up, it was recognised that the Highlands and Islands were not included in objective 1. The only reason the Highlands and Islands have been included in the financial assistance is the work carried out by the United Kingdom Government. Scotland's local authorities undertook part of the lobbying to influence the UK Government. Earlier, the positive role that the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities played was mentioned. It was because of the work carried out by COSLA that the United Kingdom Government came to recognise the case for the special deal that was done.

In general, the minister was right to say that this is a good deal for Scotland. He has described the coverage that the Scottish population has in comparison with the rest of Europe or the United Kingdom.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C710024", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 146.0, "ContributionID": 710024, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2029E47P167C710025", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Henry, Hugh", "ID": 2029, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Hugh Henry", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Hugh Henry: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 148.0, "ContributionID": 710025, "EditedText": "No, I am sorry. I will extend to Mr Neil the same courtesy that Dr Ewing extended to me—I will take his intervention after I have made my points. The minister mentioned the significant gains that Scotland has made. One of the things we need to emphasise is that although we have benefited, which is a good outcome, reductions in European funding are based on success. The reductions are based on the fact that, relative to the rest of the UK economy, the Scottish economy is growing. In the past, European funding was based on our relative backwardness compared with many other parts of Europe. We are gaining because the UK Government has argued a good deal for Scotland. We are also starting to gain from some of the benefits of European investment. A number of noticeable improvements have been made in the current round. A new seven- year programme is replacing two three-year programmes, which will help many of the agencies involved. However, we must emphasise to all the partners involved that they need to prepare exit strategies for European funding: they cannot keep thinking that more of the same will come. The vexed question of the maps has been raised. The advice from the European Commission was that maps should be grouped together. Again, we gained from the lobbying that was done in Scotland's local authorities that there should be maps based on wards. That has been built in, but certain clear anomalies have resulted. Given that the European Commission has three months to agree the list, I hope that the Scottish Executive's actions will reflect what it said to the European Committee—that representations can be made to the Executive that will then be taken back to the Commission for it to consider. I hope that that will be done in a way that reflects the debate. There were some serious concerns about the way in which negotiations and consultation were carried out, especially with regard to objective 1. We must address some of those concerns. The minister has already given some indication on that. The thrust that we now have means that, for the first time, we have a serious opportunity to ensure that different funding streams from European Union sources and Scottish and UK sources are brought together. Where there are gaps caused by a reduction in European funding, I am convinced that the Scottish Executive will, in the years to come, step in with imaginative programmes, using the money that we gain as part of the Barnett formula.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I am sorry. I will extend to Mr Neil the same courtesy that Dr Ewing extended to me—I will take his intervention after I have made my points.

The minister mentioned the significant gains that Scotland has made. One of the things we need to emphasise is that although we have benefited, which is a good outcome, reductions in European funding are based on success. The reductions are based on the fact that, relative to the rest of the UK economy, the Scottish economy is growing.

In the past, European funding was based on our relative backwardness compared with many other parts of Europe. We are gaining because the UK Government has argued a good deal for Scotland. We are also starting to gain from some of the benefits of European investment.

A number of noticeable improvements have been made in the current round. A new seven- year programme is replacing two three-year programmes, which will help many of the agencies involved. However, we must emphasise to all the partners involved that they need to prepare exit strategies for European funding: they cannot keep thinking that more of the same will come.

The vexed question of the maps has been raised. The advice from the European Commission was that maps should be grouped together. Again, we gained from the lobbying that was done in Scotland's local authorities that there should be maps based on wards. That has been built in, but certain clear anomalies have resulted.

Given that the European Commission has three months to agree the list, I hope that the Scottish Executive's actions will reflect what it said to the European Committee—that representations can be made to the Executive that will then be taken back to the Commission for it to consider. I hope that that will be done in a way that reflects the debate.

There were some serious concerns about the way in which negotiations and consultation were carried out, especially with regard to objective 1. We must address some of those concerns. The minister has already given some indication on that.

The thrust that we now have means that, for the first time, we have a serious opportunity to ensure that different funding streams from European Union sources and Scottish and UK sources are brought together. Where there are gaps caused by a reduction in European funding, I am convinced that the Scottish Executive will, in the years to come, step in with imaginative programmes, using the money that we gain as part of the Barnett formula.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1850E185P354C710029", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Radcliffe, Nora", "ID": 1850, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Gordon" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nora Radcliffe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nora Radcliffe: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 157.0, "ContributionID": 710029, "EditedText": "I fully agree with what Margaret Ewing said. Keith is in an anomalous position—the poor town is on the periphery of my constituency and on the periphery of its local authority area. It often feels like the poor relation, and it does not deserve to. The recent crisis in the agriculture sector, BSE and the strong pound have led to sharply falling prices and farm incomes, and a situation for many that could fairly be described as desperate. We should be increasing aid at such a time, not withdrawing it. There is a strong case for continuing European aid to existing objective 5b areas. Both Turriff and Huntly are integral parts of the rural hinterlands, and both need help to diversify and create economic opportunities that are currently lacking. Keith and Strathisla are equally deserving. As Margaret Ewing said, there have been cutbacks in the textile industry that have hit it hard. It is ridiculous that Keith and Strathisla are not included when the rest of Moray is. There is a strong sense of injustice in Keith and Strathisla and rural Aberdeenshire. We hope that the minister will accept the strength of the arguments to adjust the map for assistance.", "EditedTextHTML": "I fully agree with what Margaret Ewing said. Keith is in an anomalous position—the poor town is on the periphery of my constituency and on the periphery of its local authority area. It often feels like the poor relation, and it does not deserve to.

The recent crisis in the agriculture sector, BSE and the strong pound have led to sharply falling prices and farm incomes, and a situation for many that could fairly be described as desperate. We should be increasing aid at such a time, not withdrawing it. There is a strong case for continuing European aid to existing objective 5b areas. Both Turriff and Huntly are integral parts of the rural hinterlands, and both need help to diversify and create economic opportunities that are currently lacking. Keith and Strathisla are equally deserving. As Margaret Ewing said, there have been cutbacks in the textile industry that have hit it hard. It is ridiculous that Keith and Strathisla are not included when the rest of Moray is.

There is a strong sense of injustice in Keith and Strathisla and rural Aberdeenshire. We hope that the minister will accept the strength of the arguments to adjust the map for assistance.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2142E142P230C710038", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Watson, Mike", "ID": 2142, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Cathcart" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Watson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mike Watson (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 177.0, "ContributionID": 710038, "EditedText": "It is inevitable that much of the back-bench debate on this issue has revolved around parochial matters. After all, we have been sent here to look after our constituencies, however those may be defined. I make no apology for continuing the trend of the debate. I have considerable concerns that reflect a number of representations that I—and I imagine other Glasgow MSPs—have received from Glasgow City Council, the Glasgow Alliance, the Strathclyde European Partnership, Heatwise and, from my own area, the Castlemilk Partnership, about the effects of operating objective 2 status. I do not think that there is any general objection to basing funding on wards instead of on local authorities, and we broadly accept the logic behind that plan as outlined by the minister. However, we need to question how some of the wards have been selected. Cathy Peattie, Sylvia Jackson and other members eloquently outlined the problems in their areas, and I have to do the same for Castlemilk. The ways in which those ward boundaries have been chosen cause real difficulties in that area of the Cathcart constituency. Although there are three wards in the Castlemilk district, the Castlemilk ward itself is to be excluded—the organisations that operate in the ward find that inexplicable. I do not know whether it will be possible to have a rethink on that issue. The detail emerged only relatively recently. I understood from the minister that the European Commission could amend the UK submission, and I hope very much that any amendments can be made before the EC announces its final decisions. Castlemilk stands to suffer if the centre of the district is excluded from objective 2 status. Although Glasgow City Council wanted such status for 75 per cent of the city, only 61 per cent will be covered. That is serious. I know by talking to MSPs from other parts of the country that Glasgow tends not to get much sympathy. It is thought that, as Glasgow has had considerable assistance in the past, it needs less assistance now. All the now widely accepted poverty indicators are most obvious in Glasgow, which is not to say that other parts of Scotland do not have them. Although Castlemilk has improved greatly over the past 10 years as one of the partnership areas in the new life for urban Scotland programme, the area still has serious problems, which is evident from many of the poverty indicators. For the first time, the new European structural fund boundaries will create boundaries within Castlemilk, with the potential to set communities and residents there at odds with one another. I have to tell the minister that the proposed boundaries seem to run contrary to the tenets of the social inclusion policy. Although Castlemilk cannot be one of the social inclusion partnerships because of what has happened over the past 10 years, the Glasgow Alliance regards the area's needs to be sufficiently important as to merit funding and to allow it effectively to continue as a social inclusion partnership area. Local people and organisations will not understand the divide being drawn within the council ward boundaries. We might have a potentially divisive situation whereby people are refused access to opportunities because they have the wrong address in an area such as Castlemilk, and that might destroy some of the community consensus built up over the past 10 years.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is inevitable that much of the back-bench debate on this issue has revolved around parochial matters. After all, we have been sent here to look after our constituencies, however those may be defined.

I make no apology for continuing the trend of the debate. I have considerable concerns that reflect a number of representations that I—and I imagine other Glasgow MSPs—have received from Glasgow City Council, the Glasgow Alliance, the Strathclyde European Partnership, Heatwise and, from my own area, the Castlemilk Partnership, about the effects of operating objective 2 status.

I do not think that there is any general objection to basing funding on wards instead of on local authorities, and we broadly accept the logic behind that plan as outlined by the minister. However, we need to question how some of the wards have been selected. Cathy Peattie, Sylvia Jackson and other members eloquently outlined the problems in their areas, and I have to do the same for Castlemilk. The ways in which those ward boundaries have been chosen cause real difficulties in that area of the Cathcart constituency. Although there are three wards in the Castlemilk district, the Castlemilk ward itself is to be excluded—the organisations that operate in the ward find that inexplicable.

I do not know whether it will be possible to have a rethink on that issue. The detail emerged only relatively recently. I understood from the minister that the European Commission could amend the UK submission, and I hope very much that any amendments can be made before the EC announces its final decisions.

Castlemilk stands to suffer if the centre of the district is excluded from objective 2 status. Although Glasgow City Council wanted such status for 75 per cent of the city, only 61 per cent will be covered. That is serious. I know by talking to MSPs from other parts of the country that Glasgow tends not to get much sympathy. It is thought that, as Glasgow has had considerable assistance in the past, it needs less assistance now. All the now widely accepted poverty indicators are most obvious in Glasgow, which is not to say that other parts of Scotland do not have them. Although Castlemilk has improved greatly over the past 10 years as one of the partnership areas in the new life for urban Scotland programme, the area still has serious problems, which is evident from many of the poverty indicators.

For the first time, the new European structural fund boundaries will create boundaries within Castlemilk, with the potential to set communities and residents there at odds with one another. I have to tell the minister that the proposed boundaries seem to run contrary to the tenets of the social inclusion policy. Although Castlemilk cannot be one of the social inclusion partnerships because of what has happened over the past 10 years, the Glasgow Alliance regards the area's needs to be sufficiently important as to merit funding and to allow it effectively to continue as a social inclusion partnership area.

Local people and organisations will not understand the divide being drawn within the council ward boundaries. We might have a potentially divisive situation whereby people are refused access to opportunities because they have the wrong address in an area such as Castlemilk, and that might destroy some of the community consensus built up over the past 10 years.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C710045", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 192.0, "ContributionID": 710045, "EditedText": "I call Cathy Jamieson, after whom I will call Sandra White and Irene Oldfather, who have regularly missed out on being called in recent debates.", "EditedTextHTML": "I call Cathy Jamieson, after whom I will call Sandra White and Irene Oldfather, who have regularly missed out on being called in recent debates.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C710051", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 207.0, "ContributionID": 710051, "EditedText": "There is time for one final speech. I call Mike Rumbles. Please limit your speech to three minutes.", "EditedTextHTML": "There is time for one final speech. I call Mike Rumbles. Please limit your speech to three minutes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2234E7P20C710055", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Aitken, Bill", "ID": 2234, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bill Aitken", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bill Aitken: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 217.0, "ContributionID": 710055, "EditedText": "Of course there are some aspects of the amendment that are worthy of consideration, particularly when one considers the parlous state of the agriculture industry in the Highlands and Islands. Only about €21 million is being put into the 2000-06 package, and much more money is required. It is important to recognise those points, but the amendment is carping, negative and divisive none the less. It is ironic that members of the SNP, who consider themselves the champions of the European dimension of Scottish politics, constantly and consistently propose policies that would reduce Scotland to the economic equivalent of Cuba or Albania.", "EditedTextHTML": "Of course there are some aspects of the amendment that are worthy of consideration, particularly when one considers the parlous state of the agriculture industry in the Highlands and Islands. Only about €21 million is being put into the 2000-06 package, and much more money is required. It is important to recognise those points, but the amendment is carping, negative and divisive none the less.

It is ironic that members of the SNP, who consider themselves the champions of the European dimension of Scottish politics, constantly and consistently propose policies that would reduce Scotland to the economic equivalent of Cuba or Albania.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C710056", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 219.0, "ContributionID": 710056, "EditedText": "I am glad that Mr Aitken is so confident about his own country's economic wellbeing, but will he specify which words in our amendment cause him difficulty?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am glad that Mr Aitken is so confident about his own country's economic wellbeing, but will he specify which words in our amendment cause him difficulty?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2234E7P20C710061", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Aitken, Bill", "ID": 2234, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bill Aitken", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bill Aitken: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 229.0, "ContributionID": 710061, "EditedText": "It is not a matter for satisfaction that that is so, although, once again, that totally disregards the starting base. What was the situation 20 years ago? Much better. What will the situation be in 10 years' time, when these eastern bloc economies come into the European Union? Scotland will undoubtedly be the loser. That is why what we are discussing today is, in effect, an exit strategy, which will have to be managed carefully. Jack McConnell must realise that the consultation process on the formulation of European structural funding has been wide and well considered. He must also recognise, however, that the funding on which we are deliberating today will not always be there. He will need to report back to the various committees of this Parliament over the next year on how the funding is being operated, because we will eventually have to go without it. Conservative members have listened to the arguments carefully. This is a purely technical matter. We recognise that one cannot please all of the people all of the time, but we must address the fact that the goose that has laid the golden eggs for so many years is not likely to be doing so for much longer.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is not a matter for satisfaction that that is so, although, once again, that totally disregards the starting base. What was the situation 20 years ago? Much better. What will the situation be in 10 years' time, when these eastern bloc economies come into the European Union? Scotland will undoubtedly be the loser. That is why what we are discussing today is, in effect, an exit strategy, which will have to be managed carefully.

Jack McConnell must realise that the consultation process on the formulation of European structural funding has been wide and well considered. He must also recognise, however, that the funding on which we are deliberating today will not always be there. He will need to report back to the various committees of this Parliament over the next year on how the funding is being operated, because we will eventually have to go without it.

Conservative members have listened to the arguments carefully. This is a purely technical matter. We recognise that one cannot please all of the people all of the time, but we must address the fact that the goose that has laid the golden eggs for so many years is not likely to be doing so for much longer.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C710066", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 241.0, "ContributionID": 710066, "EditedText": "I thank members for their contributions to the debate—I make the exceptions of the opening and closing speeches from the front-bench members of the nationalist party—and for the constructive way in which they put the case for their local areas and contributed to the way in which we can spend this money over the next seven years. That is a serious responsibility of the new Executive and the Scottish Parliament, and it is a serious part of the devolved arrangements. We have a duty to take that responsibility seriously as we discuss and discharge it. We also have a responsibility to keep the European structural funds in perspective. Although they amount to a lot of money—£150 million or so a year, which may go up or down over the next few years—that is only 1 per cent of our overall budget. Significantly more money is being spent on economic and social development in Scotland through many agencies and from Executive funds. It is important that the work that we do with the European structural funds complements that activity rather than replaces it, and that, over the next seven years, it prepares us for a time when much of this money, if not all of it, might no longer be available. In the time that I have, I want to address some of the points that have been made by individual members of all parties. In my opening statement, I referred specifically to several areas, including Keith. Several areas have been missed from the map because of the range of the criteria that we had to meet, because of competing pressures and priorities throughout Scotland and because of economic developments in different parts of Scotland over the past three or four years. By any objective criteria, those areas would, taken on their own, have been deserving of these European funds. That is why the transition money is so important. We have heard nothing from Andrew Wilson or Bruce Crawford about the negotiation of the transition fund by the UK Government at the Berlin summit.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank members for their contributions to the debate—I make the exceptions of the opening and closing speeches from the front-bench members of the nationalist party—and for the constructive way in which they put the case for their local areas and contributed to the way in which we can spend this money over the next seven years. That is a serious responsibility of the new Executive and the Scottish Parliament, and it is a serious part of the devolved arrangements. We have a duty to take that responsibility seriously as we discuss and discharge it.

We also have a responsibility to keep the European structural funds in perspective. Although they amount to a lot of money—£150 million or so a year, which may go up or down over the next few years—that is only 1 per cent of our overall budget. Significantly more money is being spent on economic and social development in Scotland through many agencies and from Executive funds. It is important that the work that we do with the European structural funds complements that activity rather than replaces it, and that, over the next seven years, it prepares us for a time when much of this money, if not all of it, might no longer be available.

In the time that I have, I want to address some of the points that have been made by individual members of all parties. In my opening statement, I referred specifically to several areas, including Keith. Several areas have been missed from the map because of the range of the criteria that we had to meet, because of competing pressures and priorities throughout Scotland and because of economic developments in different parts of Scotland over the past three or four years. By any objective criteria, those areas would, taken on their own, have been deserving of these European funds. That is why the transition money is so important. We have heard nothing from Andrew Wilson or Bruce Crawford about the negotiation of the transition fund by the UK Government at the Berlin summit.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1878E208P502C710067", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Dr Winnie", "ID": 1878, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Winnie Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Winnie Ewing rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 243.0, "ContributionID": 710067, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C710062", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 232.0, "ContributionID": 710062, "EditedText": "I would like to cover three main issues from the debate: the consultation process; the loss of objective 1 status and the so-called special agreement; and additionality. I am bemused by Mr Aitken's inability to find what he does not like in our amendment, other than the fact that it is from the SNP—and he does not like the SNP. There seems to be agreement on our criticism of the consultation process. In the interests of consensus, I should say that there has been remarkable agreement across the chamber on this key issue. On consultation, Mr Hugh Henry, convener of the European Committee, repeated what he said in that committee. He said that the consultation \"document has significant weaknesses as regards consultation. The section on consultation has nothing in it\".—Official Report, European Committee, 19 October 1999; c 200. There was no effort by the Government or Executive seriously to consult the European Committee on the matters in hand. Mr Scott, speaking for the Liberal Democrats, said that we needed an opportunity to make our case and, as the opportunity was there, there was no need for the amendment. All the opportunity is after the fact, however—it is after the submission has gone to the Commission. The Minister for Finance's only case seems to be that we will wait for the Commission to decide whether things are inadequate, and then make our case. If the consultation process had been adequate, we would not have to wait for the Commission before we had the chance to offer criticism. We would have had things all sorted out up front. Allan Wilson, for the Labour party, suggested changes to the consultation process. That is confirmation that he agrees with us that the consultation process was inadequate. If the Commission, the body on which we must now rely, does not object, does that mean that we are snookered and that everything that has been said today is lost? The Minister for Finance seems to be slipperily washing his hands of the whole process and handing responsibility to the European Commission. That is not good enough. Mr Canavan rightly called for new information to be taken into account. Our amendment gives us that opportunity. Mrs Peattie made the same point and agreed with the arguments of Michael Matheson. Mr Henry agreed with both elements of our amendment; he agreed with what it says about European objective 1 status and about the anomalies in the consultation process. If members agree with what we are saying, there is no case for their not voting for the amendment. If they do not vote for it, their words will fall emptily. Our point on objective 1 status—I see that Mr Henry is no longer in the chamber—is that there was a complete lack of lateral thinking from the Executive when making the case for retaining objective 1 status: 1 per cent below the cut-off point is very close. Scotland is in a unique position to make the case that the gross domestic product measure, for example, is wrong for us. Scotland is unique in the European Union in having a GDP that is much higher than the gross national product. Put simply, the GDP measure is not a good measure of our state of national welfare or standard of living. It is unusual, because of high inward investment and because of the oil sector. Shetland skews the figures. It sits at about 112 per cent of the average GDP, although that is not enjoyed by the people of Shetland. Much of it is expatriated in profits and salaries. The Executive fails to make that case. Perhaps Jack does not understand it. The special deal is an absolute nonsense. It is an example of the triumph of Labour spin over reality. There was no special deal. Labour would like us to believe that there was so that it can claim the credit, but that is what it always does. It would say anything to anyone at any time to save face or to win an argument. There is no substance behind its argument. The case was put perfectly by my colleague, Mr Crawford. I have the European Commission document here. There are two special deals—two special programmes. One is for the PEACE programme; one is for Sweden. I point out to Ben Wallace that Sweden does not have to rely on the big clout of the UK to secure that special programme; it is an example of a small country doing rather well. As I said, there are the two special programmes, but where in the Commission document is the Highlands and Islands? It is not there. It is an untruth to suggest that there is a special deal. It has always been the case that transitional support would apply to the Highlands and Islands if it lost objective 1 funding. The pre-briefing for this debate concentrated on additionality, and we have heard no criticism of our arguments from the Executive, other than some childish taunts from the Minister for Finance, which do not do his office any credit. When, on 7 October, the First Minister was asked whether structural funds were non-additional to Scotland, he said: \"That is broadly correct.\" Mr Davidson made the point that the funds are additional at a UK level, not at a Scottish level. Mr Dewar's spokesman was quoted in The Herald on the following day, 8 October. He said: \"If money from Europe goes up then the money we get from the Treasury would go down because we can't go above what we are entitled to under the Barnett formula.\" In 1998—not ancient history—our allocated share of the UK structural funds pot was 23 per cent. What we actually got through the Barnett formula share—as Mr Dewar says, we cannot get more than that—was about a third of that. That is a fact—Mr McConnell can get to his feet if he disagrees. The resulting loss, under the Labour Government, was £350 million. None of what the Minister for Finance has said—none of his taunts or childish assertions on the radio this morning— makes any difference to that fact. Let us consider the forward process. The minister's entire assertion would appear to be that, because we are losing out now, we will gain in the future by losing less. When he sums up, will he say whether Scotland's share of the 1999-2005 structural funds is less than our population share of the UK? If it is not, we will lose out; if it is, the minister has a big problem to answer for. Drawing, I think in good time, to a close, I believe that Winnie Ewing, who probably has more experience of Europe than anyone else in this chamber, put it well: we have lost out. I say to our friends on the Conservative benches that we have done so by being an appendage of a very reluctant partner throughout the 1980s. Mr Davidson made the point that, under the Tories, we had 20 per cent of UK structural funds. The point is that we never got 10 per cent of that because, as Mr Dewar said, we only ever got our Barnett formula share. We are asking not for anything special from Europe, just normality. We are asking for the status not of Cuba, as Mr Aitken suggested—he would do well to show more respect for his own country—but of Denmark, Ireland, Sweden and any other normal country in Europe. If we had that, we could argue our case with consensus without waiting for the Commission to make up its mind and then change its position. We could think laterally about making the case for objective 1 status on the ground of what is good for Scotland, rather than just accept the proposals for a variety of reasons that are unclear. The funds would be additional if we were at a member state level—we would reap the benefits of being an independent state in Europe. Everyone in this chamber appears to agree with the amendment, with the possible exception of those on the Labour front benches. The Tories agree with it, although they do not like it because it is from us. Their back benchers will probably agree with it, but will be whipped into opposing it.", "EditedTextHTML": "I would like to cover three main issues from the debate: the consultation process; the loss of objective 1 status and the so-called special agreement; and additionality.

I am bemused by Mr Aitken's inability to find what he does not like in our amendment, other than the fact that it is from the SNP—and he does not like the SNP.

There seems to be agreement on our criticism of the consultation process. In the interests of consensus, I should say that there has been remarkable agreement across the chamber on this key issue. On consultation, Mr Hugh Henry, convener of the European Committee, repeated what he said in that committee. He said that the consultation

\"document has significant weaknesses as regards consultation. The section on consultation has nothing in it\".—[Official Report, European Committee, 19 October 1999; c 200.]

There was no effort by the Government or Executive seriously to consult the European Committee on the matters in hand.

Mr Scott, speaking for the Liberal Democrats, said that we needed an opportunity to make our case and, as the opportunity was there, there was no need for the amendment. All the opportunity is after the fact, however—it is after the submission has gone to the Commission. The Minister for Finance's only case seems to be that we will wait for the Commission to decide whether things are inadequate, and then make our case.

If the consultation process had been adequate, we would not have to wait for the Commission before we had the chance to offer criticism. We would have had things all sorted out up front.

Allan Wilson, for the Labour party, suggested changes to the consultation process. That is confirmation that he agrees with us that the consultation process was inadequate. If the Commission, the body on which we must now rely, does not object, does that mean that we are snookered and that everything that has been said today is lost? The Minister for Finance seems to be slipperily washing his hands of the whole process and handing responsibility to the European Commission. That is not good enough.

Mr Canavan rightly called for new information to be taken into account. Our amendment gives us that opportunity. Mrs Peattie made the same point and agreed with the arguments of Michael Matheson. Mr Henry agreed with both elements of our amendment; he agreed with what it says about European objective 1 status and about the anomalies in the consultation process. If members agree with what we are saying, there is no case for their not voting for the amendment. If they do not vote for it, their words will fall emptily.

Our point on objective 1 status—I see that Mr Henry is no longer in the chamber—is that there

was a complete lack of lateral thinking from the Executive when making the case for retaining objective 1 status: 1 per cent below the cut-off point is very close.

Scotland is in a unique position to make the case that the gross domestic product measure, for example, is wrong for us. Scotland is unique in the European Union in having a GDP that is much higher than the gross national product. Put simply, the GDP measure is not a good measure of our state of national welfare or standard of living. It is unusual, because of high inward investment and because of the oil sector.

Shetland skews the figures. It sits at about 112 per cent of the average GDP, although that is not enjoyed by the people of Shetland. Much of it is expatriated in profits and salaries. The Executive fails to make that case. Perhaps Jack does not understand it.

The special deal is an absolute nonsense. It is an example of the triumph of Labour spin over reality. There was no special deal. Labour would like us to believe that there was so that it can claim the credit, but that is what it always does. It would say anything to anyone at any time to save face or to win an argument. There is no substance behind its argument.

The case was put perfectly by my colleague, Mr Crawford. I have the European Commission document here. There are two special deals—two special programmes. One is for the PEACE programme; one is for Sweden. I point out to Ben Wallace that Sweden does not have to rely on the big clout of the UK to secure that special programme; it is an example of a small country doing rather well. As I said, there are the two special programmes, but where in the Commission document is the Highlands and Islands? It is not there. It is an untruth to suggest that there is a special deal. It has always been the case that transitional support would apply to the Highlands and Islands if it lost objective 1 funding.

The pre-briefing for this debate concentrated on additionality, and we have heard no criticism of our arguments from the Executive, other than some childish taunts from the Minister for Finance, which do not do his office any credit. When, on 7 October, the First Minister was asked whether structural funds were non-additional to Scotland, he said: \"That is broadly correct.\" Mr Davidson made the point that the funds are additional at a UK level, not at a Scottish level. Mr Dewar's spokesman was quoted in The Herald on the following day, 8 October. He said:

\"If money from Europe goes up then the money we get from the Treasury would go down because we can't go above what we are entitled to under the Barnett formula.\"

In 1998—not ancient history—our allocated share of the UK structural funds pot was 23 per cent. What we actually got through the Barnett formula share—as Mr Dewar says, we cannot get more than that—was about a third of that. That is a fact—Mr McConnell can get to his feet if he disagrees. The resulting loss, under the Labour Government, was £350 million. None of what the Minister for Finance has said—none of his taunts or childish assertions on the radio this morning— makes any difference to that fact.

Let us consider the forward process. The minister's entire assertion would appear to be that, because we are losing out now, we will gain in the future by losing less. When he sums up, will he say whether Scotland's share of the 1999-2005 structural funds is less than our population share of the UK? If it is not, we will lose out; if it is, the minister has a big problem to answer for.

Drawing, I think in good time, to a close, I believe that Winnie Ewing, who probably has more experience of Europe than anyone else in this chamber, put it well: we have lost out. I say to our friends on the Conservative benches that we have done so by being an appendage of a very reluctant partner throughout the 1980s.

Mr Davidson made the point that, under the Tories, we had 20 per cent of UK structural funds. The point is that we never got 10 per cent of that because, as Mr Dewar said, we only ever got our Barnett formula share. We are asking not for anything special from Europe, just normality. We are asking for the status not of Cuba, as Mr Aitken suggested—he would do well to show more respect for his own country—but of Denmark, Ireland, Sweden and any other normal country in Europe. If we had that, we could argue our case with consensus without waiting for the Commission to make up its mind and then change its position. We could think laterally about making the case for objective 1 status on the ground of what is good for Scotland, rather than just accept the proposals for a variety of reasons that are unclear. The funds would be additional if we were at a member state level—we would reap the benefits of being an independent state in Europe.

Everyone in this chamber appears to agree with the amendment, with the possible exception of those on the Labour front benches. The Tories agree with it, although they do not like it because it is from us. Their back benchers will probably agree with it, but will be whipped into opposing it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1916E38P70C710063", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Ben", "ID": 1916, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ben Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ben Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 234.0, "ContributionID": 710063, "EditedText": "Will Andrew Wilson give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Andrew Wilson give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C710068", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 245.0, "ContributionID": 710068, "EditedText": "Sorry, Dr Ewing.The UK Government provided strong and important support for all those Scottish areas that can no longer stay on the map. That is why I am so determined to ensure that not only Keith, but a number of other areas receive top priority in the spending of that transition funding in the years to come. I also want to make it clear that some areas of rural Scotland benefit significantly from the new map. The Borders provides a particularly good example, with current economic problems that deserve objective 2 status. Other parts of rural Scotland are already benefiting from the £500 million a year from the common agricultural policy that is spent in Scotland. Those areas will benefit from the rural development regulation in addition to the moneys that are targeted towards both the new objective 2 map and the transition funding. It is important to keep that in perspective. I assure members that I will insist that the transition areas that need such funding most will receive the transition funding. For the benefit of Cathy Jamieson, who made her point so clearly, I state that those areas will include Girvan, in south Ayrshire. Cathy Jamieson made it clear that, since the objective 2 funding map was first hinted at, and almost published, back in July, it has been improved. One example of such an improvement involves Falkirk. Given the recent job losses in Falkirk and the problems that are faced by Falkirk district, I was particularly keen to ensure that areas of Falkirk were included on the map. I assure members that they were among those areas that it was most difficult, behind the scenes, to negotiate on to the map. In response to Cathy Peattie's request, I would be delighted to meet representatives from Falkirk Council and other local organisations to discuss that and to discover what can be done to improve the position of those areas that were not included on the map that has been submitted. We were also keen to include as much of Glasgow as possible. I take on board the points that were made by Sandra White and Mike Watson. However, 61 per cent of the Glasgow area is on the map. That is a significantly higher percentage than for most other parts of Scotland. If the whole of Glasgow had been on the map, we would have had difficulty in including most of the other areas whose inclusion on the map has been welcomed, never mind all those areas that have not made it on to the map. However, the points were well made and I take them on board. We will do everything that we can to ensure continued support. Sylvia Jackson made the best point about an individual area. She spoke about Stirling. The wards that she highlighted—which are among not only the top 10 per cent, but the top 5 per cent of the most deprived areas in Scotland—are the wards on which the transition funding should be focused. I repeat the commitment that I made in my earlier speech: I will reject plans that do not target the transition money on those areas. Several good general contributions have been made; I do not have time to mention them all. I agree with Allan Wilson that it is important to decentralise decision making in the programmes. It is important that we support small, rural projects, as David Mundell said—and we do. Many of the 450 projects that are already supported through the European structural funds would come into that category. We are keen on flexibility. However, the best response to the on-going shock economic problems, to which Irene Oldfather referred, is the quick reaction of the national Government and the Scottish Executive to allocate an even higher level of funding than is available through Europe to those areas in a co-ordinated and spontaneous way. That is not always possible through European funding, but it is possible for us and we should continue to make that a priority. I welcome many of the comments that were made about rural areas in the Highlands and Islands. However, to describe the success of winning that money for the Highlands and Islands as a defeat, as Dr Ewing did, is a disgrace not only to her and to her position, but to this Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "Sorry, Dr Ewing.

The UK Government provided strong and important support for all those Scottish areas that can no longer stay on the map. That is why I am so determined to ensure that not only Keith, but a number of other areas receive top priority in the spending of that transition funding in the years to come.

I also want to make it clear that some areas of rural Scotland benefit significantly from the new map. The Borders provides a particularly good example, with current economic problems that deserve objective 2 status. Other parts of rural Scotland are already benefiting from the £500 million a year from the common agricultural policy that is spent in Scotland. Those areas will benefit from the rural development regulation in addition to the moneys that are targeted towards both the new objective 2 map and the transition funding. It is important to keep that in perspective. I assure members that I will insist that the transition areas that need such funding most will receive the transition funding. For the benefit of Cathy Jamieson, who made her point so clearly, I state that those areas will include Girvan, in south Ayrshire.

Cathy Jamieson made it clear that, since the objective 2 funding map was first hinted at, and almost published, back in July, it has been improved. One example of such an improvement involves Falkirk. Given the recent job losses in Falkirk and the problems that are faced by Falkirk district, I was particularly keen to ensure that areas of Falkirk were included on the map. I assure members that they were among those areas that it was most difficult, behind the scenes, to negotiate on to the map. In response to Cathy Peattie's request, I would be delighted to meet representatives from Falkirk Council and other local organisations to discuss that and to discover what can be done to improve the position of those areas that were not included on the map that has been submitted.

We were also keen to include as much of Glasgow as possible. I take on board the points that were made by Sandra White and Mike Watson. However, 61 per cent of the Glasgow area is on the map. That is a significantly higher percentage than for most other parts of Scotland. If the whole of Glasgow had been on the map, we would have had difficulty in including most of the other areas whose inclusion on the map has been welcomed, never mind all those areas that have not made it on to the map. However, the points were well made and I take them on board. We will do everything that we can to ensure continued support.

Sylvia Jackson made the best point about an individual area. She spoke about Stirling. The wards that she highlighted—which are among not only the top 10 per cent, but the top 5 per cent of the most deprived areas in Scotland—are the

wards on which the transition funding should be focused. I repeat the commitment that I made in my earlier speech: I will reject plans that do not target the transition money on those areas.

Several good general contributions have been made; I do not have time to mention them all. I agree with Allan Wilson that it is important to decentralise decision making in the programmes. It is important that we support small, rural projects, as David Mundell said—and we do. Many of the 450 projects that are already supported through the European structural funds would come into that category. We are keen on flexibility. However, the best response to the on-going shock economic problems, to which Irene Oldfather referred, is the quick reaction of the national Government and the Scottish Executive to allocate an even higher level of funding than is available through Europe to those areas in a co-ordinated and spontaneous way. That is not always possible through European funding, but it is possible for us and we should continue to make that a priority.

I welcome many of the comments that were made about rural areas in the Highlands and Islands. However, to describe the success of winning that money for the Highlands and Islands as a defeat, as Dr Ewing did, is a disgrace not only to her and to her position, but to this Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C710070", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 249.0, "ContributionID": 710070, "EditedText": "No.The Highlands and Islands did not qualify for objective 1 status. At the last minute, that package was secured by the UK Government. As I have said before in this chamber, it would be nice if every now and again we heard the nationalists congratulate the UK Government on the work that it has done, instead of this continual carping, moaning and criticism from the sidelines. The money will be well spent. I notice that there was no contribution from the SNP this morning about how the money might be spent in those areas when it is allocated, about the priorities for spending the money or about the allocation within individual programmes. We are here to ensure that we discharge our responsibilities. We are here to ensure that this money is spent in a way that improves gross domestic product and incomes in Scotland, year-round employment in the Highlands and Islands and the economic and social cohesion of the different communities in Scotland; we are here to ensure that, when the European structural funds finally run out, we will have an opportunity to move on and play a full part in the European Union. To describe the financial position in which we find ourselves as in any way damaging to the work of the Executive, this Parliament or the communities of Scotland, is so financially ludicrous that it is staggering that the argument is still being made. We have been arguing against that since July. The truth is that the European structural funds have always been in the Scottish budget. They are used in Scotland, as throughout the rest of the UK, as additional money. The amount that will be spent from the European structural funds that are in the assigned budget will decrease, which means that there will be extra money, not less, for Scotland over the next seven years. Those who do not acknowledge that are either not telling the truth or are failing to understand the situation. Nothing makes me angrier than constant carping about the UK and England, when, in this matter, the devolution settlement is of huge benefit to Scotland. We will run our own programmes. We can determine our own priorities. We can use the European funding with our own funding, in different areas, to ensure that communities in Scotland benefit. We will receive a financial benefit that was perhaps not predicted by the Treasury at the time, owing to the fact that the European structural funds will decrease and will release money elsewhere in the budget that is assigned to Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

The Highlands and Islands did not qualify for objective 1 status. At the last minute, that package was secured by the UK Government. As I have said before in this chamber, it would be nice if every now and again we heard the nationalists congratulate the UK Government on the work that it has done, instead of this continual carping, moaning and criticism from the sidelines.

The money will be well spent. I notice that there was no contribution from the SNP this morning about how the money might be spent in those areas when it is allocated, about the priorities for spending the money or about the allocation within individual programmes. We are here to ensure that we discharge our responsibilities. We are here to ensure that this money is spent in a way that improves gross domestic product and incomes in Scotland, year-round employment in the Highlands and Islands and the economic and social cohesion of the different communities in Scotland; we are here to ensure that, when the European structural funds finally run out, we will have an opportunity to move on and play a full part in the European Union.

To describe the financial position in which we find ourselves as in any way damaging to the work of the Executive, this Parliament or the communities of Scotland, is so financially ludicrous that it is staggering that the argument is still being made. We have been arguing against that since July. The truth is that the European structural funds have always been in the Scottish budget. They are used in Scotland, as throughout the rest of the UK, as additional money. The amount that will be spent from the European structural funds that are in the assigned budget will decrease, which means that there will be extra money, not less, for Scotland over the next seven years.

Those who do not acknowledge that are either not telling the truth or are failing to understand the situation. Nothing makes me angrier than constant carping about the UK and England, when, in this matter, the devolution settlement is of huge benefit to Scotland. We will run our own programmes. We can determine our own priorities. We can use the European funding with our own funding, in different areas, to ensure that communities in Scotland benefit. We will receive a financial benefit that was perhaps not predicted by the Treasury at the time, owing to the fact that the European structural funds will decrease and will release money elsewhere in the budget that is assigned to Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C710072", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 253.0, "ContributionID": 710072, "EditedText": "That is good news for Scotland as Mr Wilson should accept. Until he accepts it, he will not be taken seriously on this subject in this Parliament. I hope that we can look forward to plans—not only in the Highlands and Islands, but in objective 3 areas and the new objective 2 areas—that involve the economic and social partners locally, that make a difference in local communities, that are positive and forward looking, and that create the kind of constructive and positive Scotland that can play its role in bringing about an economic future for the European Union that is full of opportunity as well as challenges for us.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is good news for Scotland as Mr Wilson should accept. Until he accepts it, he will not be taken seriously on this subject in this Parliament.

I hope that we can look forward to plans—not only in the Highlands and Islands, but in objective 3 areas and the new objective 2 areas—that involve the economic and social partners locally, that make a difference in local communities, that are positive and forward looking, and that create the kind of constructive and positive Scotland that can play its role in bringing about an economic future for the European Union that is full of opportunity as well as challenges for us.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2066E64P88C710078", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fisheries Council", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26953, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 257.0, "ID": 26953, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McGrigor, Jamie", "ID": 2066, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie McGrigor", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Jamie McGrigor (Highlands and Islands) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 267.0, "ContributionID": 710078, "EditedText": "I welcome the minister's statement, especially the bit about better consumer information, which will encourage more consumption of fish in this age of information addiction. I also welcome support for producer organisations, but I must ask the minister if he has taken account of the smaller fishermen, especially those on the west coast, who are not part of producer organisations and who are in danger of being swamped by them. How will the minister encourage the industry's future, and encourage young people into it? How can young people, for example, come into the prawn creel fishing industry with prawn quotas at their present price level? And what is he doing for the scallop fishermen who have been tied up all summer, complying with the ban on scallop fishing due to amnesic shellfish poisoning? They have been unable to do any other fishing and have thus had no income at all.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the minister's statement, especially the bit about better consumer information, which will encourage more consumption of fish in this age of information addiction. I also welcome support for producer organisations, but I must ask the minister if he has taken account of the smaller fishermen, especially those on the west coast, who are not part of producer organisations and who are in danger of being swamped by them.

How will the minister encourage the industry's future, and encourage young people into it? How can young people, for example, come into the prawn creel fishing industry with prawn quotas at their present price level? And what is he doing for the scallop fishermen who have been tied up all summer, complying with the ban on scallop fishing due to amnesic shellfish poisoning? They have been unable to do any other fishing and have thus had no income at all.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2100E64P254C710079", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fisheries Council", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26953, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 257.0, "ID": 26953, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Home Robertson, John", "ID": 2100, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Lothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "John Home Robertson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Home Robertson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 269.0, "ContributionID": 710079, "EditedText": "I am grateful to Mr McGrigor for the points that he raises, particularly those on marketing. He is right that it is important that this industry should be able to take more advantage of value adding. The potential value of fish landed in Scotland is considerably higher than the actual value realised by the catchers and the local fishing communities. That is a very important part of the Scottish Executive's policy. We want to encourage measures that will help fishermen and fishing communities to get more out of what they catch. Mr McGrigor may know that we recently established the Scottish inshore fisheries advisory group, in partnership with the industry, to discuss in particular the problems of small boats to which he refers. We understand the tremendous importance of the smaller ports, particularly on the west coast where the industry is rather fragile and has suffered many pressures. He mentioned the ASP problem, and I would also refer to the recent closures of the nephrop fishery in the North sea. I am delighted that we may have been able to reopen that. I was encouraged by the constructive tone of the initial discussions in the inshore fisheries advisory group and I hope that we will make progress with those objectives.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful to Mr McGrigor for the points that he raises, particularly those on marketing. He is right that it is important that this industry should be able to take more advantage of value adding. The potential value of fish landed in Scotland is considerably higher than the actual value realised by the catchers and the local fishing communities. That is a very important part of the Scottish Executive's policy. We want to encourage measures that will help fishermen and fishing communities to get more out of what they catch.

Mr McGrigor may know that we recently established the Scottish inshore fisheries advisory group, in partnership with the industry, to discuss in particular the problems of small boats to which he refers. We understand the tremendous importance of the smaller ports, particularly on the west coast where the industry is rather fragile and has suffered many pressures. He mentioned the ASP problem, and I would also refer to the recent closures of the nephrop fishery in the North sea. I am delighted that we may have been able to reopen that. I was encouraged by the constructive tone of the initial discussions in the inshore fisheries advisory group and I hope that we will make progress with those objectives.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2100E64P254C710085", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fisheries Council", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26953, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 257.0, "ID": 26953, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Home Robertson, John", "ID": 2100, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Lothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "John Home Robertson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Home Robertson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 281.0, "ContributionID": 710085, "EditedText": "We do not yet know the details of the next generation of the financial instrument for fisheries guidance. However, as I said, a lot of good work—worth £30 million—has been done on marketing, port improvements, processing, safety and other aspects of the fleet. We are keen to put in place a successor scheme, and it is important that that should be up and running as early as possible next year, precisely in order to help sectors such as the one referred to by Rhoda Grant.", "EditedTextHTML": "We do not yet know the details of the next generation of the financial instrument for fisheries guidance. However, as I said, a lot of good work—worth £30 million—has been done on marketing, port improvements, processing, safety and other aspects of the fleet. We are keen to put in place a successor scheme, and it is important that that should be up and running as early as possible next year, precisely in order to help sectors such as the one referred to by Rhoda Grant.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2223E203P342C710086", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fisheries Council", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26953, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 257.0, "ID": 26953, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scott, Tavish", "ID": 2223, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Shetland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tavish Scott", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tavish Scott (Shetland) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 283.0, "ContributionID": 710086, "EditedText": "I assure the minister that those of us who come from fishing constituencies will not find speeches on fisheries boring. Indeed, we will look forward to them. Is the aid for new build that the minister mentioned in the context of FIFG available to all parts of the catching sector, or will the multi- annual guidance programme requirements prevent some sectors from taking it up? On the minister's point about closer dialogue with the fishing industry, I understand that the committee that has existed since 1971 has not achieved a heck of a lot. The important principles are that the new structures take into account the views of Scottish fishing organisations and, perhaps more important, that in the context of developing regional management of fisheries, the new committee and new structures of dialogue can be adaptable to those changes. Will the minister consider those points?", "EditedTextHTML": "I assure the minister that those of us who come from fishing constituencies will not find speeches on fisheries boring. Indeed, we will look forward to them.

Is the aid for new build that the minister mentioned in the context of FIFG available to all parts of the catching sector, or will the multi- annual guidance programme requirements prevent some sectors from taking it up?

On the minister's point about closer dialogue with the fishing industry, I understand that the committee that has existed since 1971 has not achieved a heck of a lot. The important principles are that the new structures take into account the views of Scottish fishing organisations and, perhaps more important, that in the context of developing regional management of fisheries, the new committee and new structures of dialogue can be adaptable to those changes. Will the minister consider those points?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710088", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fisheries Council", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26953, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 257.0, "ID": 26953, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 287.0, "ContributionID": 710088, "EditedText": "I call Maureen Macmillan.", "EditedTextHTML": "I call Maureen Macmillan.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1821E295P538C710091", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fisheries Council", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26953, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 257.0, "ID": 26953, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Mrs Margaret", "ID": 1821, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Moray" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Margaret Ewing (Moray) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 293.0, "ContributionID": 710091, "EditedText": "Will the minister rethink the concept that he may try the Parliament's patience by making regular statements after council meetings? In particular, full statements should be made to the Parliament on the November and December meetings because the agenda is set down for the following year at that time. The industry, as well as Parliament, will certainly want to hear public statements on that. I disagree with Mike Rumbles that statements should be made to the Rural Affairs Committee and the European Committee. In the context of the Commission asking for additional meetings, the Rural Affairs Committee and the European Committee should hold pre-council meetings to reflect the Parliament's views and those of members who represent fishing communities. Those views would then be taken on our behalf to the council and, I hope, the minister might actually demand the right to vote to reflect those views.", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister rethink the concept that he may try the Parliament's patience by making regular statements after council meetings? In particular, full statements should be made to the Parliament on the November and December meetings because the agenda is set down for the following year at that time. The industry, as well as Parliament, will certainly want to hear public statements on that.

I disagree with Mike Rumbles that statements should be made to the Rural Affairs Committee and the European Committee. In the context of the Commission asking for additional meetings, the Rural Affairs Committee and the European Committee should hold pre-council meetings to reflect the Parliament's views and those of members who represent fishing communities. Those views would then be taken on our behalf to the council and, I hope, the minister might actually demand the right to vote to reflect those views.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2117E79P104C710093", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fisheries Council", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26953, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 257.0, "ID": 26953, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macdonald, Lewis", "ID": 2117, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lewis Macdonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Lewis Macdonald (Aberdeen Central) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 297.0, "ContributionID": 710093, "EditedText": "I welcome the minister's historic statement. Is progress being made on our long-term objective of achieving regional management of fisheries within the European Union and, in particular, in the North sea, which the minister mentioned in his answer to Mr Scott?", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the minister's historic statement. Is progress being made on our long-term objective of achieving regional management of fisheries within the European Union and, in particular, in the North sea, which the minister mentioned in his answer to Mr Scott?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2188E70P92C710099", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fisheries Council", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26953, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 257.0, "ID": 26953, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harper, Robin", "ID": 2188, "PartyName": "Scottish Green Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Green", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robin Harper", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robin Harper: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 309.0, "ContributionID": 710099, "EditedText": "I will pick one question then. Will there be a real attempt to cut back on EU capacity? What the minister has told us so far does not assure me that there will be.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will pick one question then. Will there be a real attempt to cut back on EU capacity? What the minister has told us so far does not assure me that there will be.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6858246+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710108", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fisheries Council", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26953, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 257.0, "ID": 26953, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 327.0, "ContributionID": 710108, "EditedText": "I will take one more question and answer, if they are brief.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will take one more question and answer, if they are brief.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6858246+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710113", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26954, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 333.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 333.0, "ID": 26954, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 338.0, "ContributionID": 710113, "EditedText": "Three members were not called, including your good self, but that is not a point of order.", "EditedTextHTML": "Three members were not called, including your good self, but that is not a point of order.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6858246+00:00" }, { "ID": "C710118", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26954, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 333.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 333.0, "ID": 26954, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 347.0, "ContributionID": 710118, "EditedText": "Meeting adjourned at 12:28.", "EditedTextHTML": "Meeting adjourned at 12:28.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6858246+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C710122", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26955, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 354.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26956, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 355.0, "QuestionHeading": "Education Funding", "QuestionHeadingID": 26957, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 356.0, "DisplayOrder": 356.0, "ID": 26957, "ParentID": 26956 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "1. Mr Keith Raffan (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 357.0, "ContributionID": 710122, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what its estimate is of the increase in money for education that will be available in 2000-01 to each of Fife, Stirling, Clackmannanshire, Angus, and Perth and Kinross Councils as a consequence of the £80 million extra spending for education announced by the Minister for Finance on 6 October. (S1O-464) The Deputy Minister for Children and Education (Peter Peacock): The additional money for education that was announced by Mr Jack McConnell on 6 October has been widely welcomed. Detailed allocations of education resources for individual councils will be made as part of the local government finance settlement later this year.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what its estimate is of the increase in money for education that will be available in 2000-01 to each of Fife, Stirling, Clackmannanshire, Angus, and Perth and Kinross Councils as a consequence of the £80 million extra spending for education announced by the Minister for Finance on 6 October. (S1O-464) The Deputy Minister for Children and Education (Peter Peacock): The additional money for education that was announced by Mr Jack McConnell on 6 October has been widely welcomed. Detailed allocations of education resources for individual councils will be made as part of the local government finance settlement later this year.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6858246+00:00" }, { "ID": "C710124", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26955, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 354.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26956, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 355.0, "QuestionHeading": "Education Funding", "QuestionHeadingID": 26957, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 356.0, "DisplayOrder": 356.0, "ID": 26957, "ParentID": 26956 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 361.0, "ContributionID": 710124, "EditedText": "Speech.", "EditedTextHTML": "Speech.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6858246+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710125", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26955, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 354.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26956, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 355.0, "QuestionHeading": "Education Funding", "QuestionHeadingID": 26957, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 356.0, "DisplayOrder": 356.0, "ID": 26957, "ParentID": 26956 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 363.0, "ContributionID": 710125, "EditedText": "Order.", "EditedTextHTML": "Order.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6858246+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2234E7P20C710128", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26955, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 354.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26956, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 355.0, "QuestionHeading": "Scottish Legal Aid Board", "QuestionHeadingID": 26958, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 367.0, "DisplayOrder": 367.0, "ID": 26958, "ParentID": 26956 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Aitken, Bill", "ID": 2234, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bill Aitken", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bill Aitken: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 370.0, "ContributionID": 710128, "EditedText": "I thank the minister for his response and for the courtesy of his recent correspondence on this matter. Does he agree that our principal concern should not be for the members of the Faculty of Advocates, whose main concern is where the next plate of smoked salmon is coming from, but for the one-man practices that rely heavily on a consistent funding flow from the Scottish Legal Aid Board?", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the minister for his response and for the courtesy of his recent correspondence on this matter.

Does he agree that our principal concern should not be for the members of the Faculty of Advocates, whose main concern is where the next plate of smoked salmon is coming from, but for the one-man practices that rely heavily on a consistent funding flow from the Scottish Legal Aid Board?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6858246+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1996E124P211C710133", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26955, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 354.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26956, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 355.0, "QuestionHeading": "North Ayrshire Council", "QuestionHeadingID": 26959, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 374.0, "DisplayOrder": 374.0, "ID": 26959, "ParentID": 26956 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAveety, Mr Frank", "ID": 1996, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Shettleston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Local Government", "SpeakerName": "Frank McAveety", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McAveety: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 381.0, "ContributionID": 710133, "EditedText": "That is a perverse interpretation of an eloquent, monosyllabic point. The local authority is responsible for its actions and for its relationship with its DLO. Its legitimate responsibility is to ensure that there is no fiscal deficit at the end of the year. Last week, I took the opportunity to visit the local authority. Many issues were raised about the modernisation of the council. One of its key commitments is to improve its public service through the DLO structure and to offer value for money for the local taxpayer. I am absolutely delighted that North Ayrshire Council is engaging in that process and hope that it will continue that process with its work force. If Mr Russell has concerns, he should raise them directly with the appropriate body, which is the local authority.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is a perverse interpretation of an eloquent, monosyllabic point.

The local authority is responsible for its actions and for its relationship with its DLO. Its legitimate responsibility is to ensure that there is no fiscal deficit at the end of the year. Last week, I took the opportunity to visit the local authority. Many issues were raised about the modernisation of the council. One of its key commitments is to improve its public service through the DLO structure and to offer value for money for the local taxpayer. I am absolutely delighted that North Ayrshire Council is engaging in that process and hope that it will continue that process with its work force. If Mr Russell has concerns, he should raise them directly with the appropriate body, which is the local authority.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6858246+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710136", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26955, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 354.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26956, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 355.0, "QuestionHeading": "North Ayrshire Council", "QuestionHeadingID": 26959, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 374.0, "DisplayOrder": 374.0, "ID": 26959, "ParentID": 26956 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 387.0, "ContributionID": 710136, "EditedText": "Order. The word you is coming into these exchanges too much.", "EditedTextHTML": "Order. The word you is coming into these exchanges too much.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6858246+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1916E38P70C710137", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26955, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 354.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26956, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 355.0, "QuestionHeading": "Scotland House", "QuestionHeadingID": 26960, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 389.0, "DisplayOrder": 389.0, "ID": 26960, "ParentID": 26956 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Ben", "ID": 1916, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ben Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "4. Ben Wallace (North-East Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 390.0, "ContributionID": 710137, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has to use Scotland House to secure new markets and jobs in the expanding European Community. (S1O-451)", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has to use Scotland House to secure new markets and jobs in the expanding European Community. (S1O-451)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6858246+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C710140", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26955, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 354.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26956, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 355.0, "QuestionHeading": "Scotland House", "QuestionHeadingID": 26960, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 389.0, "DisplayOrder": 389.0, "ID": 26960, "ParentID": 26956 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 396.0, "ContributionID": 710140, "EditedText": "Those matters would be easier to explain if we had any idea of a clear, consistent Conservative policy. This morning we heard Mr Davidson contradicting the rest of his party: he talked about being fully involved in Europe when the rest of his party is trying to take Britain out of Europe. That would destroy British jobs, the British economy and many other opportunities.", "EditedTextHTML": "Those matters would be easier to explain if we had any idea of a clear, consistent Conservative policy. This morning we heard Mr Davidson contradicting the rest of his party: he talked about being fully involved in Europe when the rest of his party is trying to take Britain out of Europe. That would destroy British jobs, the British economy and many other opportunities.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6858246+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2029E47P167C710142", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26955, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 354.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26956, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 355.0, "QuestionHeading": "Out-of-town Retail Development", "QuestionHeadingID": 26961, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 398.0, "DisplayOrder": 398.0, "ID": 26961, "ParentID": 26956 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Henry, Hugh", "ID": 2029, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Hugh Henry", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Hugh Henry: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 401.0, "ContributionID": 710142, "EditedText": "I thank the minister for that reply. She is no doubt aware of the new Braehead development. The developers have been trying to work closely with local councils to revitalise the local economy, but PPG8, to which she referred, on town centres and retailing states: \"The Government is committed to protecting and enhancing the vitality and viability of town centres.\" Will the minister confirm that this policy will be strictly adhered to in dealing with any major retail developments proposed for sites outwith town centres and shown to have a detrimental effect on existing town centres?", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the minister for that reply. She is no doubt aware of the new Braehead development. The developers have been trying to

work closely with local councils to revitalise the local economy, but PPG8, to which she referred, on town centres and retailing states:

\"The Government is committed to protecting and enhancing the vitality and viability of town centres.\"

Will the minister confirm that this policy will be strictly adhered to in dealing with any major retail developments proposed for sites outwith town centres and shown to have a detrimental effect on existing town centres?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6858246+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2029E47P167C710145", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26955, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 354.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26956, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 355.0, "QuestionHeading": "Out-of-town Retail Development", "QuestionHeadingID": 26961, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 398.0, "DisplayOrder": 398.0, "ID": 26961, "ParentID": 26956 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Henry, Hugh", "ID": 2029, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Hugh Henry", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Hugh Henry: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 407.0, "ContributionID": 710145, "EditedText": "Sir David—", "EditedTextHTML": "Sir David—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6858246+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710146", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26955, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 354.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26956, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 355.0, "QuestionHeading": "Out-of-town Retail Development", "QuestionHeadingID": 26961, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 398.0, "DisplayOrder": 398.0, "ID": 26961, "ParentID": 26956 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 409.0, "ContributionID": 710146, "EditedText": "I am sorry, you had a long run on your second question.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry, you had a long run on your second question.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6858246+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C710150", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26955, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 354.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26956, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 355.0, "QuestionHeading": "Health Care", "QuestionHeadingID": 26963, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 418.0, "DisplayOrder": 418.0, "ID": 26963, "ParentID": 26956 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "7. Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 419.0, "ContributionID": 710150, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it can confirm that its health priorities are unchanged and that it stands by its manifesto pledge on waiting lists. (S1O-491)", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it can confirm that its health priorities are unchanged and that it stands by its manifesto pledge on waiting lists. (S1O-491)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6858246+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C710152", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26955, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 354.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26956, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 355.0, "QuestionHeading": "Health Care", "QuestionHeadingID": 26963, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 418.0, "DisplayOrder": 418.0, "ID": 26963, "ParentID": 26956 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 423.0, "ContributionID": 710152, "EditedText": "I welcomed the announcement on waiting times. Does the minister now accept that the Executive's obsession with reducing waiting lists has seriously distorted clinical priorities in our health service? Does she now agree that waiting times for treatment are what really matter to patients, and support our policy of a guaranteed waiting time based on clinical need?", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcomed the announcement on waiting times. Does the minister now accept that the Executive's obsession with reducing waiting lists has seriously distorted clinical priorities in our health service? Does she now agree that waiting times for treatment are what really matter to patients, and support our policy of a guaranteed waiting time based on clinical need?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6858246+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C710153", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26955, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 354.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26956, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 355.0, "QuestionHeading": "Health Care", "QuestionHeadingID": 26963, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 418.0, "DisplayOrder": 418.0, "ID": 26963, "ParentID": 26956 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 425.0, "ContributionID": 710153, "EditedText": "The obsession of this Executive is to ensure that we use this Parliament to provide a better quality of life, better opportunities and better services for the people of Scotland. There are many ways in which we can do that in the health service. I am delighted that almost 10,000 fewer people are waiting for treatment now than was the case in May 1997. Those are real people, who would otherwise still be waiting to be seen. We want to build on that. That is why the Executive is committed to speeding up treatment and shortening waiting times, and why we are now embarked on a comprehensive exercise—working with a support group and with the NHS in Scotland—to build on the tremendous work that has been done in the NHS thus far to ensure that we improve the speed with which we can offer treatment in future. I am delighted that we are able to take that work forward in this Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "The obsession of this Executive is to ensure that we use this Parliament to provide a better quality of life, better opportunities and better services for the people of Scotland. There are many ways in which we can do that in the health service. I am delighted that almost 10,000 fewer people are waiting for treatment now than was the case in May 1997. Those are real people, who would otherwise still be waiting to be seen. We want to build on that. That is why the Executive is committed to speeding up treatment and shortening waiting times, and why we are now embarked on a comprehensive exercise—working with a support group and with the NHS in Scotland—to build on the tremendous work that has been done in the NHS thus far to ensure that we improve the speed with which we can offer treatment in future. I am delighted that we are able to take that work forward in this Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6858246+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1892E34P73C710162", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26955, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 354.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26956, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 355.0, "QuestionHeading": "Pig Industry", "QuestionHeadingID": 26966, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 443.0, "DisplayOrder": 443.0, "ID": 26966, "ParentID": 26956 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Fergusson, Alex", "ID": 1892, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Fergusson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Fergusson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 446.0, "ContributionID": 710162, "EditedText": "I thank the minister for his full reply—I am sure that the pig industry will be very grateful for the announcement that he has just made. However, given the fact that imports of pigmeat into the UK from Belgium have increased by 51 per cent in the first two quarters of 1999, despite the fact that dioxin-contaminated feed was given to the Belgian herd, what steps is the Executive taking—or has it taken—to ensure that pigmeat from Belgium, which may have been contaminated by dioxins, has not reached the Scottish consumer?", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the minister for his full reply—I am sure that the pig industry will be very grateful for the announcement that he has just made. However, given the fact that imports of pigmeat into the UK from Belgium have increased by 51 per cent in the first two quarters of 1999, despite the fact that dioxin-contaminated feed was given to the Belgian herd, what steps is the Executive taking—or has it taken—to ensure that pigmeat from Belgium, which may have been contaminated by dioxins, has not reached the Scottish consumer?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6858246+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C710163", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26955, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 354.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26956, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 355.0, "QuestionHeading": "Pig Industry", "QuestionHeadingID": 26966, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 443.0, "DisplayOrder": 443.0, "ID": 26966, "ParentID": 26956 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ross Finnie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 448.0, "ContributionID": 710163, "EditedText": "First, we are constantly in touch with the Commission, because it is for the Commission to deal with any evidence that meat of that quality is being exported. Secondly, I issued a consultation document yesterday, outlining proposals to clarify and strengthen guidance on country of origin labelling. I appreciate that that will not deal with the whole problem, but I hope that being more specific about what is Scottish and what is not will go some way to ameliorating the problem.", "EditedTextHTML": "First, we are constantly in touch with the Commission, because it is for the Commission to deal with any evidence that meat of that quality is being exported. Secondly, I issued a consultation document yesterday, outlining proposals to clarify and strengthen guidance on country of origin labelling. I appreciate that that will not deal with the whole problem, but I hope that being more specific about what is Scottish and what is not will go some way to ameliorating the problem.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6858246+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1882E175P456C710165", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26955, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 354.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26956, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 355.0, "QuestionHeading": "Rural Development", "QuestionHeadingID": 26967, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 450.0, "DisplayOrder": 450.0, "ID": 26967, "ParentID": 26956 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ingram, Adam", "ID": 1882, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Adam Ingram", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Ingram: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 453.0, "ContributionID": 710165, "EditedText": "I contradict the minister's answer. Could she clarify what measures are being taken to ensure that public transportation—particularly in the south of Scotland and in Moffat—is of a sufficient standard to ensure that jobs do not suffer? I ask that in the light of the Executive's decision against the building of a factory outlet centre at Hammerlands. It stated: \"While the prospect of increased employment opportunities is generally regarded as beneficial . . . the proposals are likely to result in increased use of the car, contrary to sustainable transport policy.\"", "EditedTextHTML": "I contradict the minister's answer. Could she clarify what measures are being taken to ensure that public transportation—particularly in the south of Scotland and in Moffat—is of a sufficient standard to ensure that jobs do not suffer? I ask that in the light of the Executive's decision against the building of a factory outlet centre at Hammerlands. It stated:

\"While the prospect of increased employment opportunities is generally regarded as beneficial . . . the proposals are likely to result in increased use of the car, contrary to sustainable transport policy.\"

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6858246+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710166", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26955, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 354.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26956, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 355.0, "QuestionHeading": "Rural Development", "QuestionHeadingID": 26967, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 450.0, "DisplayOrder": 450.0, "ID": 26967, "ParentID": 26956 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 455.0, "ContributionID": 710166, "EditedText": "Order. This is not argument time; it is question time.", "EditedTextHTML": "Order. This is not argument time; it is question time.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6858246+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710173", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26955, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 354.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26956, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 355.0, "QuestionHeading": "Natura 2000 Directive", "QuestionHeadingID": 26968, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 461.0, "DisplayOrder": 461.0, "ID": 26968, "ParentID": 26956 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 470.0, "ContributionID": 710173, "EditedText": "I am sorry, but we cannot have questions in different parts. Questions should be brief—you have made your point, and I ask Sarah Boyack to reply to it.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry, but we cannot have questions in different parts. Questions should be brief—you have made your point, and I ask Sarah Boyack to reply to it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4201801+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2118E157P454C710176", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26955, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 354.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26956, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 355.0, "QuestionHeading": "Education Funding The Presiding Officer: Order.", "QuestionHeadingID": 26969, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 474.0, "DisplayOrder": 474.0, "ID": 26969, "ParentID": 26956 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Quinan, Mr Lloyd", "ID": 2118, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lloyd Quinan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Lloyd Quinan (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 477.0, "ContributionID": 710176, "EditedText": "You were nearly one of them.", "EditedTextHTML": "

You were nearly one of them.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2167E79P155C710179", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26955, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 354.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26956, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 355.0, "QuestionHeading": "Education Funding The Presiding Officer: Order.", "QuestionHeadingID": 26969, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 474.0, "DisplayOrder": 474.0, "ID": 26969, "ParentID": 26956 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Peacock, Peter", "ID": 2167, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Peter Peacock", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Peter Peacock: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 483.0, "ContributionID": 710179, "EditedText": "I refer Mr Lyon to the answer that I gave to Mr Raffan earlier.", "EditedTextHTML": "I refer Mr Lyon to the answer that I gave to Mr Raffan earlier.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2167E79P155C710181", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26955, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 354.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26956, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 355.0, "QuestionHeading": "Education Funding The Presiding Officer: Order.", "QuestionHeadingID": 26969, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 474.0, "DisplayOrder": 474.0, "ID": 26969, "ParentID": 26956 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Peacock, Peter", "ID": 2167, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Peter Peacock", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Peter Peacock: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 487.0, "ContributionID": 710181, "EditedText": "It is for local authorities to determine their own priorities within the resources that are allocated by the Executive. Local authorities, with the Executive, have usually given education the highest priority they can. In that context, I expect schools in Argyll and Bute to continue to benefit from the additional money.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is for local authorities to determine their own priorities within the resources that are allocated by the Executive. Local authorities, with the Executive, have usually given education the highest priority they can. In that context, I expect schools in Argyll and Bute to continue to benefit from the additional money.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1850E185P354C710182", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26955, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 354.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26956, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 355.0, "QuestionHeading": "Education Funding The Presiding Officer: Order.", "QuestionHeadingID": 26969, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 474.0, "DisplayOrder": 474.0, "ID": 26969, "ParentID": 26956 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Radcliffe, Nora", "ID": 1850, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Gordon" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nora Radcliffe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "14. Nora Radcliffe (Gordon) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 489.0, "ContributionID": 710182, "EditedText": "Third time fair or fatal. To ask the Scottish Executive what its estimate is of the increase in money for education that will be available in 2000-01 to Moray Council as a consequence of the £80 million extra spending for education announced by the Minister for Finance on 6 October, a sum of money that will be very welcome to many people. (S1O-471)", "EditedTextHTML": "Third time fair or fatal. To ask the Scottish Executive what its estimate is of the increase in money for education that will be available in 2000-01 to Moray Council as a consequence of the £80 million extra spending for education announced by the Minister for Finance on 6 October, a sum of money that will be very welcome to many people. (S1O-471)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2167E79P155C710183", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26955, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 354.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26956, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 355.0, "QuestionHeading": "Education Funding The Presiding Officer: Order.", "QuestionHeadingID": 26969, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 474.0, "DisplayOrder": 474.0, "ID": 26969, "ParentID": 26956 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Peacock, Peter", "ID": 2167, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Peter Peacock", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Children and Education (Peter Peacock): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 491.0, "ContributionID": 710183, "EditedText": "I keep getting a feeling of déjà vu. I refer Mrs Radcliffe to the answer that I gave to Mr Raffan earlier.", "EditedTextHTML": "I keep getting a feeling of déjà vu. I refer Mrs Radcliffe to the answer that I gave to Mr Raffan earlier.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1762E216P508C710184", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26955, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 354.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26956, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 355.0, "QuestionHeading": "Education Funding The Presiding Officer: Order.", "QuestionHeadingID": 26969, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 474.0, "DisplayOrder": 474.0, "ID": 26969, "ParentID": 26956 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Elder, Dorothy-Grace", "ID": 1762, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 493.0, "ContributionID": 710184, "EditedText": "We object to the Liberal Democrats having more plants than Dobbie's.", "EditedTextHTML": "We object to the Liberal Democrats having more plants than Dobbie's.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2167E79P155C710186", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26955, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 354.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26956, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 355.0, "QuestionHeading": "Education Funding The Presiding Officer: Order.", "QuestionHeadingID": 26969, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 474.0, "DisplayOrder": 474.0, "ID": 26969, "ParentID": 26956 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Peacock, Peter", "ID": 2167, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Peter Peacock", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Peter Peacock: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 497.0, "ContributionID": 710186, "EditedText": "The grant allocations that are devised for local authorities take account of the real factors that affect councils such as Moray. A higher distribution per head of population is given to account for that. Moray Council, along with other councils in Scotland, has enjoyed more resources for education. That is one of the reasons why Moray Council is farther ahead than most in, for example, the provision of the national grid for learning.", "EditedTextHTML": "The grant allocations that are devised for local authorities take account of the real factors that affect councils such as Moray. A higher distribution per head of population is given to account for that. Moray Council, along with other councils in Scotland, has enjoyed more resources for education. That is one of the reasons why Moray Council is farther ahead than most in, for example, the provision of the national grid for learning.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C710188", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26955, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 354.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26956, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 355.0, "QuestionHeading": "Charity Shops", "QuestionHeadingID": 26970, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 499.0, "DisplayOrder": 499.0, "ID": 26970, "ParentID": 26956 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Finance (Mr Jack McConnell): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 502.0, "ContributionID": 710188, "EditedText": "Recently, we have received three representations: a written question from Ian Jenkins, the member for Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale, in September, a letter from Peebles Civic Society in September and a letter from the Association of Charity Shops in October.", "EditedTextHTML": "Recently, we have received three representations: a written question from Ian Jenkins, the member for Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale, in September, a letter from Peebles Civic Society in September and a letter from the Association of Charity Shops in October.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C710195", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26972, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 515.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26973, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 516.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meeting)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26974, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 517.0, "DisplayOrder": 517.0, "ID": 26974, "ParentID": 26973 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 520.0, "ContributionID": 710195, "EditedText": "In view of the quite unjustified criticism that has been heaped upon Sheriff Margaret Gimblett after her decision in Greenock sheriff court last week, does the First Minister agree with the general proposition that the courts of Scotland have a duty to \"follow or at least carefully consider\"international law in determining their own decisions?", "EditedTextHTML": "In view of the quite unjustified criticism that has been heaped upon Sheriff Margaret Gimblett after her decision in Greenock sheriff court last week, does the First Minister agree with the general proposition that the courts of Scotland have a duty to

\"follow or at least carefully consider\"

international law in determining their own decisions?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C710197", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26972, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 515.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26973, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 516.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meeting)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26974, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 517.0, "DisplayOrder": 517.0, "ID": 26974, "ParentID": 26973 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 524.0, "ContributionID": 710197, "EditedText": "It has not been referred as yet—I checked a few minutes ago. I am glad that the First Minister agrees with that proposition, because I was quoting from Ronald King Murray, the last Labour Lord Advocate, who went on to argue, in a paper delivered to the United Nations Association in Oxford last year, that the Trident nuclear system could well be illegal under international law. Does it trouble the First Minister that such an eminent legal authority in Scotland considers that the nuclear system that the First Minister supports could well be illegal?", "EditedTextHTML": "It has not been referred as yet—I checked a few minutes ago. I am glad that the First Minister agrees with that proposition, because I was quoting from Ronald King Murray, the last Labour Lord Advocate, who went on to argue, in a paper delivered to the United Nations Association in Oxford last year, that the Trident nuclear system could well be illegal under international law. Does it trouble the First Minister that such an eminent legal authority in Scotland considers that the nuclear system that the First Minister supports could well be illegal?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C710202", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26972, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 515.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26973, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 516.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meeting)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26974, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 517.0, "DisplayOrder": 517.0, "ID": 26974, "ParentID": 26973 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 534.0, "ContributionID": 710202, "EditedText": "I am always very proud to see the advances in medical practice and treatment in the health service in Scotland. We are fortunate in Scotland to spend 20 to 23 or 24 per cent more per head on the health service than is spent in other parts of the United Kingdom. It is fair to say that we see real results for that spending, in both staffing and technique. We should all be glad that we are in a position to afford that impetus to progress in the health service in our own country.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am always very proud to see the advances in medical practice and treatment in the health service in Scotland. We are fortunate in Scotland to spend 20 to 23 or 24 per cent more per head on the health service than is spent in other parts of the United Kingdom. It is fair to say that we see real results for that spending, in both staffing and technique. We should all be glad that we are in a position to afford that impetus to progress in the health service in our own country.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C710203", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26972, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 515.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26973, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 516.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meeting)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26974, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 517.0, "DisplayOrder": 517.0, "ID": 26974, "ParentID": 26973 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan (Falkirk West): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 536.0, "ContributionID": 710203, "EditedText": "In view of the recent historic decision at Greenock sheriff court, will the First Minister ask the Secretary of State for Scotland to try to persuade the rest of the British Cabinet to abide by international law by removing all nuclear weapons from British soil and territorial waters in line with the policy of the Scottish Labour party?", "EditedTextHTML": "In view of the recent historic decision at Greenock sheriff court, will the First Minister ask the Secretary of State for Scotland to try to persuade the rest of the British Cabinet to abide by international law by removing all nuclear weapons from British soil and territorial waters in line with the policy of the Scottish Labour party?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C710205", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26972, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 515.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26973, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 516.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meeting)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26974, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 517.0, "DisplayOrder": 517.0, "ID": 26974, "ParentID": 26973 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 540.0, "ContributionID": 710205, "EditedText": "We will see about that. That is prejudging the judgment from on high.", "EditedTextHTML": "We will see about that. That is prejudging the judgment from on high.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C710207", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26972, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 515.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26973, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 516.0, "QuestionHeading": "SNP Leader (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26975, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 542.0, "DisplayOrder": 542.0, "ID": 26975, "ParentID": 26973 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister (Donald Dewar): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 545.0, "ContributionID": 710207, "EditedText": "There has been one encounter. I would argue that the meeting was technically a photo opportunity and can assure Mr McLetchie that opportunities for discussion were sadly limited. As for the future, I have no plans.", "EditedTextHTML": "There has been one encounter. I would argue that the meeting was technically a photo opportunity and can assure Mr McLetchie that opportunities for discussion were sadly limited.

As for the future, I have no plans.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C710208", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26972, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 515.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26973, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 516.0, "QuestionHeading": "SNP Leader (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26975, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 542.0, "DisplayOrder": 542.0, "ID": 26975, "ParentID": 26973 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 547.0, "ContributionID": 710208, "EditedText": "I am very sorry to learn that this first date was such a hurried affair. Laughter. Given that we have this arranged marriage of convenience in Scotland—otherwise known snappily as Scotland in Europe (part of the Britain in Europe campaign)—did the First Minister have a brief opportunity to exchange views on the effect that a rush to sign up for the euro, or the single currency, would have on the Scottish economy and jobs, and the threat that doing so poses to Scottish pensions and taxes and the sovereignty of our country?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am very sorry to learn that this first date was such a hurried affair. [Laughter.] Given that we have this arranged marriage of convenience in Scotland—otherwise known snappily as Scotland in Europe (part of the Britain in Europe campaign)—did the First Minister have a brief opportunity to exchange views on the effect that a rush to sign up for the euro, or the single currency, would have on the Scottish economy and jobs, and the threat that doing so poses to Scottish pensions and taxes and the sovereignty of our country?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C710211", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26972, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 515.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26973, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 516.0, "QuestionHeading": "SNP Leader (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26975, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 542.0, "DisplayOrder": 542.0, "ID": 26975, "ParentID": 26973 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 553.0, "ContributionID": 710211, "EditedText": "David McLetchie will have to learn the difference between people laughing at him and people laughing with him. Engagement in Europe is important. It is important for the Government of this country at every level to fight for Scottish and British interests in Europe. Furthermore, our ability to do so effectively is badly damaged if we indulge in rhetoric that suggests that not only are we positioned at the exit from the European Union, but that many of our members would like to take that exit route. I am very sad to say that that is the direction in which William Hague, purely out of political expediency, has led his party.", "EditedTextHTML": "David McLetchie will have to learn the difference between people laughing at him and people laughing with him.

Engagement in Europe is important. It is important for the Government of this country at every level to fight for Scottish and British interests in Europe. Furthermore, our ability to do so effectively is badly damaged if we indulge in

rhetoric that suggests that not only are we positioned at the exit from the European Union, but that many of our members would like to take that exit route. I am very sad to say that that is the direction in which William Hague, purely out of political expediency, has led his party.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1926E190P479C710216", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26972, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 515.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26973, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 516.0, "QuestionHeading": "NHS Pay Negotiations", "QuestionHeadingID": 26976, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 563.0, "DisplayOrder": 563.0, "ID": 26976, "ParentID": 26973 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Adam, Brian", "ID": 1926, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Adam", "SpeakerDisplayName": "3. Brian Adam (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 564.0, "ContributionID": 710216, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive which national health service pay bargaining groups have settled their 1999-2000 pay negotiations, which have yet to agree and what percentage pay rises have been agreed by those bargaining groups that have settled. (S1O-484)", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive which national health service pay bargaining groups have settled their 1999-2000 pay negotiations, which have yet to agree and what percentage pay rises have been agreed by those bargaining groups that have settled. (S1O-484)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1926E190P479C710218", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26972, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 515.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26973, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 516.0, "QuestionHeading": "NHS Pay Negotiations", "QuestionHeadingID": 26976, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 563.0, "DisplayOrder": 563.0, "ID": 26976, "ParentID": 26973 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Adam, Brian", "ID": 1926, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Adam", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Brian Adam: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 568.0, "ContributionID": 710218, "EditedText": "Does the minister agree that the other staff groups have been offered 3 per cent, and that they are not part of the pay review? How long does this Administration intend to continue with the Conservative practice—which seemed to issue from the health workers' strike of 1982—of differentiating between the two groups?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the minister agree that the other staff groups have been offered 3 per cent, and that they are not part of the pay review? How long does this Administration intend to continue with the Conservative practice—which seemed to issue from the health workers' strike of 1982—of differentiating between the two groups?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1990E181P340C710220", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26972, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 515.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26973, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 516.0, "QuestionHeading": "NHS Pay Negotiations", "QuestionHeadingID": 26976, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 563.0, "DisplayOrder": 563.0, "ID": 26976, "ParentID": 26973 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robson, Euan", "ID": 1990, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Roxburgh and Berwickshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Euan Robson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Euan Robson (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 572.0, "ContributionID": 710220, "EditedText": "Will the minister pay particular attention to the rates of pay of laboratory assistants, who seem to be remarkably poorly paid compared with other workers in the health service, but who deliver a vital and effective service?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister pay particular attention to the rates of pay of laboratory assistants, who seem to be remarkably poorly paid compared with other workers in the health service, but who deliver a vital and effective service?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C710222", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26972, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 515.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26973, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 516.0, "QuestionHeading": "NHS Pay Negotiations", "QuestionHeadingID": 26976, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 563.0, "DisplayOrder": 563.0, "ID": 26976, "ParentID": 26973 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Richard Simpson (Ochil) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 576.0, "ContributionID": 710222, "EditedText": "Will the minister look into the current shortages in laboratory staff? The recruitment programme for laboratory assistants is now entirely restricted to graduates and the average starting salary is £7,000, which is extremely low and is leading to considerable problems in the laboratory system— problems that are likely to get worse. Will the minister also encourage our UK Government colleagues to examine the inclusion of laboratory technicians and workers in the second-level pay review body, which currently covers nurses and PAMs?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister look into the current shortages in laboratory staff? The recruitment programme for laboratory assistants is now entirely restricted to graduates and the average starting salary is £7,000, which is extremely low and is leading to considerable problems in the laboratory system— problems that are likely to get worse.

Will the minister also encourage our UK Government colleagues to examine the inclusion of laboratory technicians and workers in the second-level pay review body, which currently covers nurses and PAMs?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C710225", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26972, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 515.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26973, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 516.0, "QuestionHeading": "NHS Pay Negotiations", "QuestionHeadingID": 26976, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 563.0, "DisplayOrder": 563.0, "ID": 26976, "ParentID": 26973 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 582.0, "ContributionID": 710225, "EditedText": "I make promises to workers in the NHS that I know are deliverable, rather than painting a picture that suggests that there is a quick fix involving taking money from one place with one hand and giving to them with the other. I will do what is within my powers to ensure that we reward people working in the health service in Scotland fairly and effectively, and I will do so based on practical politics and on promises that can be kept, not on nice left-wing rhetoric.", "EditedTextHTML": "I make promises to workers in the NHS that I know are deliverable, rather than painting a picture that suggests that there is a quick fix involving taking money from one place with one hand and giving to them with the other. I will do what is within my powers to ensure that we reward people working in the health service in Scotland fairly and effectively, and I will do so based on practical politics and on promises that can be kept, not on nice left-wing rhetoric.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2154E194P299C710229", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish University for Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26977, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 588.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 588.0, "ID": 26977, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stephen, Nicol", "ID": 2154, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Nicol Stephen", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning (Nicol Stephen): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 592.0, "ContributionID": 710229, "EditedText": "Yesterday, the Scottish Executive published its document, \"Scottish University for Industry: The Shortest Route to Learning\"—Interruption.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yesterday, the Scottish Executive published its document, \"Scottish University for Industry: The Shortest Route to Learning\"—[Interruption.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710230", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish University for Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26977, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 588.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 588.0, "ID": 26977, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 594.0, "ContributionID": 710230, "EditedText": "Order. Just a moment, Mr Stephen. Would members who are leaving please do so quietly and without conversation? That applies to the First Minister as well as to everybody else in the corner of the chamber. Please carry on, Mr Stephen.", "EditedTextHTML": "Order. Just a moment, Mr Stephen. Would members who are leaving please do so quietly and without conversation? That applies to the First Minister as well as to everybody else in the corner of the chamber.

Please carry on, Mr Stephen.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2066E64P88C710234", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish University for Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26977, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 588.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 588.0, "ID": 26977, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McGrigor, Jamie", "ID": 2066, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie McGrigor", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Jamie McGrigor (Highlands and Islands) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 602.0, "ContributionID": 710234, "EditedText": "I have a question on the subject of Lews Castle College. Does Nicol Stephen agree that, if primary and secondary funding is accepted to be one-and-a-half times as much in the Highlands and Islands, the university funding for Lews Castle College probably should be the same amount extra as well? That college considers itself to be some 25 per cent underfunded anyway. Will Nicol Stephen address that, to determine whether the college could receive extra funding in recognition of its remoteness?", "EditedTextHTML": "I have a question on the subject of Lews Castle College. Does Nicol Stephen agree that, if primary and secondary funding is accepted to be one-and-a-half times as much in the Highlands and Islands, the university funding for Lews Castle College probably should be the same amount extra as well? That college considers itself to be some 25 per cent underfunded anyway. Will Nicol Stephen address that, to determine whether the college could receive extra funding in recognition of its remoteness?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2154E194P299C710233", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish University for Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26977, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 588.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 588.0, "ID": 26977, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stephen, Nicol", "ID": 2154, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Nicol Stephen", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicol Stephen: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 600.0, "ContributionID": 710233, "EditedText": "That is a good example of the need for skills development and for encouraging greater use of the new technology—which I will come to. I will try to ensure that the document is available on the website as soon as possible, if it is not already. The Scottish UFI will encourage demand for learning. It will increase the number of people who participate in learning, and will play an important role in boosting competitiveness and combating social exclusion. There will be a major marketing campaign, advertisements, a freephone helpline number, and a sophisticated—by the time it is launched—website with all the information contained on it. The Scottish UFI will not provide any training or education itself. In that sense, it will not be a university. To visualise it better, members should consider it as a broker or gateway that will explain to people the learning that is available. It will explain particular qualifications, arrange for people to obtain advice on their choice of learning and put people in touch with a learning provider. The Scottish UFI will have a core staff of around five directors and around 15 to 20 employees. It will contract out provision of many of its services, such as the helpline, website and accredited learning centres. It will also provide a vital database of all existing training provision, which will be continually amended and updated. That brings me to the second objective—a very important one—of the university for industry. Over time, we must amend, update and radically change the shape and structure of training and lifelong learning in Scotland. Learning in the future will be very different from that in the past. It will consist not simply of learning from existing conventional courses. That is one reason why the Scottish UFI will commission new, often web- based materials and courses, where gaps in provision exist. Providers will be encouraged to provide learning in new ways, and to make use of the latest IT developments in interactive materials, for example. Materials will also be commissioned in the light of information on the skills needs specified by employers, by the national training organisations and by learners. The Scottish UFI development team, based in Scottish Enterprise, is working hard to ensure a successful launch in autumn 2000. Development work is continuing to set in place the information and communication technology systems that the Scottish UFI will need. It is about to be established as a company limited by guarantee with charitable status. Yesterday, the Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning, Henry McLeish, announced the appointment of Frank Pignatelli as Scottish UFI chief executive. Recruitment of the other executive directors is at an advanced stage. A chairman and board will be appointed early in the new year, and we wish Mr Pignatelli and his team well. The name Scottish university for industry is only a working title for the concept. Work is under way to develop a brand name that will appeal to the public and attract as many people as possible into learning. The name will almost certainly change. The Scottish UFI will provide a one-stop shop to connect individuals and organisations to providers of the learning they need in the way that suits them best: by the Scottish UFI freephone helpline, through the website, or locally, face to face, at part of the network of accredited learning centres. The Scottish UFI will not own or run learning centres itself; it will accredit a network operated by a wide range of providers. At the moment, there are around 400 learning centres in Scotland. Our target is to create more than 1,000 such centres throughout the length and breadth of Scotland. Henry McLeish recently visited East End Park, Dunfermline Athletic's football ground, where he launched the up-for-learning project. That is one of 17 European Union projects that are funded under objective 4. Those new initiatives have been key in assisting the work of the Scottish UFI development team. The aim is to establish learning centres in non-traditional locations, such as high streets, business parks, libraries, supermarkets and even football clubs. I am keen for Scottish UFI accredited learning centres to develop in deprived and rural areas. A good example from the north-east started as a single project in a council house on the Middlefield estate—the Middlefield learning house—and has now developed in partnership with similar projects in two other deprived areas of Aberdeen. It has created two further learning houses in rural areas in Huntly and Fraserburgh. The concept is that adults and children from deprived backgrounds learn best together in those learning houses. Demand for that form of learning has so far outstripped supply that a booking system is needed in those houses. Let nobody here say that there is not enthusiasm and real demand for learning—not only about basic literacy and numeracy skills, but about the internet and new technologies—in deprived, disadvantaged and excluded areas. Remoteness can be another barrier to learning. Six months ago, Lews Castle College opened a learning centre on Barra. Already, more than 50 people have enrolled, out of a population of 1,200. Two people have already signed up for university degrees. We expect the Scottish UFI to build and expand on the network of all kinds of learning centres throughout the country.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is a good example of the need for skills development and for encouraging greater use of the new technology—which I will come to. I will try to ensure that the document is available on the website as soon as possible, if it is not already.

The Scottish UFI will encourage demand for learning. It will increase the number of people who participate in learning, and will play an important role in boosting competitiveness and combating social exclusion. There will be a major marketing campaign, advertisements, a freephone helpline number, and a sophisticated—by the time it is launched—website with all the information contained on it.

The Scottish UFI will not provide any training or education itself. In that sense, it will not be a university. To visualise it better, members should consider it as a broker or gateway that will explain to people the learning that is available. It will explain particular qualifications, arrange for people to obtain advice on their choice of learning and put people in touch with a learning provider.

The Scottish UFI will have a core staff of around five directors and around 15 to 20 employees. It will contract out provision of many of its services, such as the helpline, website and accredited learning centres. It will also provide a vital database of all existing training provision, which will be continually amended and updated.

That brings me to the second objective—a very important one—of the university for industry. Over time, we must amend, update and radically change the shape and structure of training and lifelong learning in Scotland. Learning in the future will be very different from that in the past. It will consist not simply of learning from existing conventional courses. That is one reason why the Scottish UFI will commission new, often web- based materials and courses, where gaps in provision exist.

Providers will be encouraged to provide learning in new ways, and to make use of the latest IT developments in interactive materials, for example. Materials will also be commissioned in the light of information on the skills needs specified by employers, by the national training organisations and by learners.

The Scottish UFI development team, based in Scottish Enterprise, is working hard to ensure a successful launch in autumn 2000. Development work is continuing to set in place the information and communication technology systems that the Scottish UFI will need. It is about to be established as a company limited by guarantee with charitable status.

Yesterday, the Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning, Henry McLeish, announced the appointment of Frank Pignatelli as Scottish UFI chief executive. Recruitment of the other executive directors is at an advanced stage. A chairman and board will be appointed early in the new year, and we wish Mr Pignatelli and his team well.

The name Scottish university for industry is only a working title for the concept. Work is under way to develop a brand name that will appeal to the public and attract as many people as possible into learning. The name will almost certainly change. The Scottish UFI will provide a one-stop shop to connect individuals and organisations to providers of the learning they need in the way that suits them best: by the Scottish UFI freephone helpline, through the website, or locally, face to face, at part of the network of accredited learning centres. The Scottish UFI will not own or run learning centres itself; it will accredit a network operated by a wide range of providers. At the moment, there are around 400 learning centres in Scotland. Our target is to create more than 1,000 such centres throughout the length and breadth of Scotland.

Henry McLeish recently visited East End Park, Dunfermline Athletic's football ground, where he launched the up-for-learning project. That is one of 17 European Union projects that are funded under objective 4. Those new initiatives have been key in assisting the work of the Scottish UFI development team. The aim is to establish learning centres in non-traditional locations, such as high streets, business parks, libraries, supermarkets and even football clubs.

I am keen for Scottish UFI accredited learning centres to develop in deprived and rural areas. A

good example from the north-east started as a single project in a council house on the Middlefield estate—the Middlefield learning house—and has now developed in partnership with similar projects in two other deprived areas of Aberdeen. It has created two further learning houses in rural areas in Huntly and Fraserburgh. The concept is that adults and children from deprived backgrounds learn best together in those learning houses. Demand for that form of learning has so far outstripped supply that a booking system is needed in those houses. Let nobody here say that there is not enthusiasm and real demand for learning—not only about basic literacy and numeracy skills, but about the internet and new technologies—in deprived, disadvantaged and excluded areas.

Remoteness can be another barrier to learning. Six months ago, Lews Castle College opened a learning centre on Barra. Already, more than 50 people have enrolled, out of a population of 1,200. Two people have already signed up for university degrees. We expect the Scottish UFI to build and expand on the network of all kinds of learning centres throughout the country.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1762E216P508C710236", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish University for Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26977, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 588.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 588.0, "ID": 26977, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Elder, Dorothy-Grace", "ID": 1762, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder (Glasgow) (SNP) rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 606.0, "ContributionID": 710236, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C710237", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish University for Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26977, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 588.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 588.0, "ID": 26977, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 608.0, "ContributionID": 710237, "EditedText": "The minister is now winding up. He has overrun by a minute, anyway.", "EditedTextHTML": "The minister is now winding up. He has overrun by a minute, anyway.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1775E171P452C710245", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish University for Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26977, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 588.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 588.0, "ID": 26977, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeod, Fiona", "ID": 1775, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona McLeod", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona McLeod (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 626.0, "ContributionID": 710245, "EditedText": "On that point, does Mr Monteith agree that we need a separate Scottish university for industry in order to maintain our separate Scottish national vocational qualifications and so on? If we went for a UK- driven system, we would send folk off to do qualifications that are not relevant to the geographical area in which they live.", "EditedTextHTML": "On that point, does Mr Monteith agree that we need a separate Scottish university for industry in order to maintain our separate Scottish national vocational qualifications and so on? If we went for a UK- driven system, we would send folk off to do qualifications that are not relevant to the geographical area in which they live.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C710251", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish University for Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26977, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 588.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 588.0, "ID": 26977, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon (Argyll and Bute) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 639.0, "ContributionID": 710251, "EditedText": "I welcome the minister's agreement to accept Mr Swinney's amendment, in which he made some valid points about the need to monitor closely performance of the Scottish university for industry. I broadly welcome the proposals for this new organisation, which is a worthwhile initiative that attempts to link the needs of business and industry to the education and training network. In this day and age, that is very important. It will create a single gateway for anyone who wishes to access lifelong learning. The initiative should enable a picture to be built up of the demand from industry and from individuals seeking new skills. By establishing demand, the university should be able to show where skills gaps and gaps in course provision are. It should also establish where there is overlap or under-use of current provision. Its role is to promote and stimulate the demand for lifelong learning and increase access to it. Good ideas need to be translated into action and there are a number of issues that need to be addressed, some of them raised by previous speakers. One that was mentioned by John Swinney is finance: £15 million has been earmarked for start-up costs but there will be revenue costs thereafter, possibly of around half a million a year. How is that money going to be raised? Who will supply the revenue funding after the three years—the students, industry, the providers, the Scottish Executive? I am glad that the Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning referred to that sector in his opening remarks. It is vital that the small business community buys into the concept if the lifelong learning agenda is to succeed because 98.8 per cent of all businesses in Scotland employ fewer than 50 people and small businesses employ nearly half of the Scottish work force. A recent Scottish Enterprise survey showed that 80 per cent of small businesses recognise the need to invest in training but 42 per cent said that lack of information on how to access that training was a stumbling block. I hope that the university for industry will overcome that perceived problem. Another perceived hurdle—", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the minister's agreement to accept Mr Swinney's amendment, in which he made some valid points about the need to monitor closely performance of the Scottish university for industry.

I broadly welcome the proposals for this new organisation, which is a worthwhile initiative that attempts to link the needs of business and industry to the education and training network. In this day and age, that is very important. It will create a single gateway for anyone who wishes to access lifelong learning.

The initiative should enable a picture to be built up of the demand from industry and from individuals seeking new skills. By establishing demand, the university should be able to show where skills gaps and gaps in course provision are. It should also establish where there is overlap or under-use of current provision. Its role is to promote and stimulate the demand for lifelong learning and increase access to it.

Good ideas need to be translated into action and there are a number of issues that need to be addressed, some of them raised by previous speakers. One that was mentioned by John Swinney is finance: £15 million has been earmarked for start-up costs but there will be revenue costs thereafter, possibly of around half a million a year. How is that money going to be raised? Who will supply the revenue funding after the three years—the students, industry, the providers, the Scottish Executive?

I am glad that the Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning referred to that sector in his opening remarks. It is vital that the small business community buys into the concept if the lifelong learning agenda is to succeed because 98.8 per cent of all businesses in Scotland employ fewer than 50 people and small businesses employ nearly half of the Scottish work force. A recent Scottish Enterprise survey showed that 80 per cent of small businesses recognise the need to invest in training but 42 per cent said that lack of information on how to access that training was a stumbling block. I hope that the university for industry will overcome that perceived problem.

Another perceived hurdle—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C710253", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish University for Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26977, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 588.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 588.0, "ID": 26977, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 643.0, "ContributionID": 710253, "EditedText": "—was the need for people to be away from the business for days at a time, travelling to attend courses. The university for industry must reassure the small business community that it will come up with innovative and workable methods to make training flexible and accessible. Above all, it must convince small businesses that it is profitable to invest in people.", "EditedTextHTML": "—was the need for people to be away from the business for days at a time, travelling to attend courses. The university for industry must reassure the small business community that it will come up with innovative and workable methods to make training flexible and accessible. Above all, it must convince small businesses that it is profitable to invest in people.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C710254", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish University for Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26977, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 588.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 588.0, "ID": 26977, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 645.0, "ContributionID": 710254, "EditedText": "That is four minutes so—", "EditedTextHTML": "That is four minutes so—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C710258", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish University for Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26977, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 588.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 588.0, "ID": 26977, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell (South of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 655.0, "ContributionID": 710258, "EditedText": "It must be a feature of age that ministers, like policemen, look younger every day. On behalf of the SNP, I thank the ministerial team for accepting the amendment. The gentlemen of the press should note that this is the second day in a row that an amendment has been accepted. That tells us something about consensus politics. I have two points to make. First, the amendment is important. I am glad that it has been accepted, as there must be an element of scepticism about initiatives that are proposed in the manifestos of political parties—I speak as a former campaign director. It is important that initiatives that are to be funded from the public purse are carefully scrutinised. Over the years in training and education, we have had a large number of wizard wheezes— particularly the Manpower Services Commission from the Tories—which crumbled like dust when they were closely examined. This initiative is far too important for us to allow that to happen, so the most rigorous criteria must be applied in assessing the work of the university for industry. I look forward to that rigorous approach, so that we can ensure that the university adds value. My natural scepticism was heightened a little yesterday when I read the document \"Scottish University for Industry\". It takes spin into the realms of fiction and kailyard fantasy—a cultural development that we should probably welcome. The remarkable stories about fictional individuals that are contained in the document are gripping. I was particularly attracted to the story on page 12 about June Russell. I am of a certain age, and I thought that it might be Jane Russell, but it is not. Some care needs to be taken over presenting the information on such an important development. There might be an advantage in taking a soap- opera approach when selling the university— Interruption. Is Alasdair Morrison indicating that he wrote the document? I did not write it, if that was what he is trying to indicate. It might be useful to take the soap-opera approach when selling the university to students and others, but we would have liked something more rigorous when selling it to Scotland and this Parliament. My second point is that this is an exciting and innovative project. It is a new way of thinking about connecting people to the needs of a changing market and a changing society. It is a new way of bringing people forward, of doing what education does by definition, which is to draw people out. There must be new thinking in terms of where the university is based and how it operates. I welcome the appointment of Frank Pignatelli. One of the factors that distinguished Frank Pignatelli's reign as director of education in Strathclyde was a keen concern for the rural areas. We now have an opportunity in Scotland to establish the headquarters of the university for industry—it is not learning centred in the sense that pupils and students have to attend the venue—at the Crichton campus in Dumfries. Crichton College has an enormously innovative approach to education. I had the honour to give the inaugural lecture at the new college some weeks ago. I have visited the campus twice and I think that it is a most exciting place. Various colleges and universities are coming together to look at education in a new way. There are facilities and buildings there. I know that the Crichton Development Company Ltd and Dumfries and Galloway Council have been in touch with the civil servants in the relevant department. I hope that Mr Pignatelli, the board and others, will go to the college.", "EditedTextHTML": "It must be a feature of age that ministers, like policemen, look younger every day.

On behalf of the SNP, I thank the ministerial team for accepting the amendment. The gentlemen of the press should note that this is the second day in a row that an amendment has been accepted. That tells us something about consensus politics.

I have two points to make. First, the amendment is important. I am glad that it has been accepted, as there must be an element of scepticism about initiatives that are proposed in the manifestos of political parties—I speak as a former campaign director. It is important that initiatives that are to be funded from the public purse are carefully scrutinised.

Over the years in training and education, we have had a large number of wizard wheezes— particularly the Manpower Services Commission from the Tories—which crumbled like dust when they were closely examined. This initiative is far too important for us to allow that to happen, so the most rigorous criteria must be applied in assessing the work of the university for industry. I look forward to that rigorous approach, so that we can ensure that the university adds value.

My natural scepticism was heightened a little yesterday when I read the document \"Scottish University for Industry\". It takes spin into the realms of fiction and kailyard fantasy—a cultural development that we should probably welcome. The remarkable stories about fictional individuals that are contained in the document are gripping. I was particularly attracted to the story on page 12 about June Russell. I am of a certain age, and I thought that it might be Jane Russell, but it is not. Some care needs to be taken over presenting the information on such an important development. There might be an advantage in taking a soap- opera approach when selling the university— [Interruption.] Is Alasdair Morrison indicating that he wrote the document? I did not write it, if that was what he is trying to indicate.

It might be useful to take the soap-opera approach when selling the university to students and others, but we would have liked something more rigorous when selling it to Scotland and this Parliament.

My second point is that this is an exciting and innovative project. It is a new way of thinking about connecting people to the needs of a changing market and a changing society. It is a new way of bringing people forward, of doing what education does by definition, which is to draw people out.

There must be new thinking in terms of where the university is based and how it operates. I welcome the appointment of Frank Pignatelli. One of the factors that distinguished Frank Pignatelli's reign as director of education in Strathclyde was a keen concern for the rural areas. We now have an opportunity in Scotland to establish the headquarters of the university for industry—it is not learning centred in the sense that pupils and students have to attend the venue—at the Crichton campus in Dumfries.

Crichton College has an enormously innovative approach to education. I had the honour to give the inaugural lecture at the new college some weeks ago. I have visited the campus twice and I think that it is a most exciting place. Various colleges and universities are coming together to look at education in a new way. There are facilities and buildings there. I know that the Crichton Development Company Ltd and Dumfries and Galloway Council have been in touch with the civil servants in the relevant department. I hope that Mr Pignatelli, the board and others, will go to the college.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C710260", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish University for Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26977, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 588.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 588.0, "ID": 26977, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 659.0, "ContributionID": 710260, "EditedText": "If I take the intervention, will I be allowed to get my last sentence in?", "EditedTextHTML": "If I take the intervention, will I be allowed to get my last sentence in?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2066E64P88C710262", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish University for Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26977, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 588.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 588.0, "ID": 26977, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McGrigor, Jamie", "ID": 2066, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie McGrigor", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McGrigor: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 663.0, "ContributionID": 710262, "EditedText": "Does Mr Russell agree that if he had a fiver for every time that George Lyon, and some other Liberals, had said that they would abolish tuition fees, we could easily afford to build a university?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does Mr Russell agree that if he had a fiver for every time that George Lyon, and

some other Liberals, had said that they would abolish tuition fees, we could easily afford to build a university?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C710269", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish University for Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26977, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 588.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 588.0, "ID": 26977, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ms Patricia Ferguson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 678.0, "ContributionID": 710269, "EditedText": "Will you wind up, please.", "EditedTextHTML": "Will you wind up, please.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C710272", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish University for Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26977, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 588.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 588.0, "ID": 26977, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 685.0, "ContributionID": 710272, "EditedText": "Will you begin to wind up, please.", "EditedTextHTML": "Will you begin to wind up, please.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1854E38P164C710276", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish University for Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26977, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 588.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 588.0, "ID": 26977, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Godman, Trish", "ID": 1854, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Renfrewshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Trish Godman", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Trish Godman (West Renfrewshire) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 696.0, "ContributionID": 710276, "EditedText": "I believe that the Scottish university for industry has five key aims: to provide the people of Scotland with information, advice and guidance on learning opportunities; to analyse the needs of the market and the client groups that will contact the university; to commission new learning materials where gaps in provision are identified; to ensure the availability of high-quality learning programmes; and to assure the quality of products and services provided by the university brokers or commissions. All those aims are admirable, although it may be worth commenting on the tension between the university's role as a broker and its mission to provide information, advice and guidance and to assure the quality of products and services. If the university is to deliver those worthwhile objectives rather than just broker them, the Scottish Executive should perhaps consider empowering it to adopt a more proactive role in ensuring the quality of the guidance and learning that it will be recommending to Scottish learners. That is all the more important if many of those learners are socially excluded, and anxious or even afraid to come back to learning in the first place. A high quality of guidance and learning must be guaranteed. There is enormous emphasis on the learner as an individual. At one level, that may be unproblematic. After all, we are all different and have diverse needs. The university stresses that learning is to be offered where and when the learner wants it, rather than where and when the colleges, trainers, providers and universities will provide it. To treat learning as an individual activity and to fund it as such is to deny the role of a range of groups and networks that may want to learn together. We need to find imaginative ways of funding social learning as well as individual learning. The university must have a role in providing groups—community groups, families who have literacy problems and want to learn together, disability groups, black and ethnic minorities—with the guidance that they need to be connected to the organisations that provide learning. We should take the socialising of the Scottish university beyond its operation to its structure. If we want individuals—and, as I have argued, groups of every sort—to take ownership of learning, we must consider innovative ways of giving those who use the university a real stake in its ownership. That would be the best way of ensuring that it really is the Scottish people's university for industry.", "EditedTextHTML": "I believe that the Scottish university for industry has five key aims: to provide the people of Scotland with information, advice and guidance on learning opportunities; to analyse the needs of the market and the client groups that will contact the university; to commission new learning materials where gaps in provision are identified; to ensure the availability of high-quality learning programmes; and to assure the quality of products and services provided by the university brokers or commissions.

All those aims are admirable, although it may be worth commenting on the tension between the university's role as a broker and its mission to provide information, advice and guidance and to assure the quality of products and services. If the university is to deliver those worthwhile objectives rather than just broker them, the Scottish Executive should perhaps consider empowering it to adopt a more proactive role in ensuring the quality of the guidance and learning that it will be recommending to Scottish learners. That is all the more important if many of those learners are socially excluded, and anxious or even afraid to come back to learning in the first place. A high quality of guidance and learning must be guaranteed.

There is enormous emphasis on the learner as an individual. At one level, that may be unproblematic. After all, we are all different and have diverse needs. The university stresses that learning is to be offered where and when the learner wants it, rather than where and when the colleges, trainers, providers and universities will provide it.

To treat learning as an individual activity and to fund it as such is to deny the role of a range of groups and networks that may want to learn together. We need to find imaginative ways of funding social learning as well as individual learning. The university must have a role in providing groups—community groups, families who have literacy problems and want to learn together, disability groups, black and ethnic minorities—with the guidance that they need to be connected to the organisations that provide learning.

We should take the socialising of the Scottish university beyond its operation to its structure. If we want individuals—and, as I have argued, groups of every sort—to take ownership of learning, we must consider innovative ways of giving those who use the university a real stake in its ownership. That would be the best way of ensuring that it really is the Scottish people's university for industry.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1889E118P162C710291", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish University for Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26977, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 588.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 588.0, "ID": 26977, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morrison, Mr Alasdair", "ID": 1889, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Western Isles" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morrison", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Highlands and Islands and Gaelic (Mr Alasdair Morrison): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 734.0, "ContributionID": 710291, "EditedText": "We have had a useful debate this afternoon. It has given many of us a wider insight into the barriers to learning that people across Scotland face. Those barriers must be overcome if we are to realise a culture in which lifelong learning is for everyone. As Nicol Stephen said, we will accept MrSwinney's amendment and appreciate that it reinforces our motion. Mr Swinney asked about the motion. The Scottish UFI will be required to develop a number of success criteria, which will be monitored and, of course, published. They will include targets, such as the number of inquiries to the Scottish UFI helpline, the number of people who take up learning, the number who get into further learning, and the number who complete learning. The Scottish UFI will also be expected to publish an annual report and will be required to meet tough targets for its funding under a contractual agreement with the Scottish Executive. I am glad to assure John Swinney—Brian Adam (North-East Scotland) (SNP)rose—", "EditedTextHTML": "We have had a useful debate this afternoon. It has given many of us a wider insight into the barriers to learning that people across Scotland face. Those barriers must be overcome if we are to realise a culture in which lifelong learning is for everyone.

As Nicol Stephen said, we will accept Mr

Swinney's amendment and appreciate that it reinforces our motion.

Mr Swinney asked about the motion. The Scottish UFI will be required to develop a number of success criteria, which will be monitored and, of course, published. They will include targets, such as the number of inquiries to the Scottish UFI helpline, the number of people who take up learning, the number who get into further learning, and the number who complete learning. The Scottish UFI will also be expected to publish an annual report and will be required to meet tough targets for its funding under a contractual agreement with the Scottish Executive.

I am glad to assure John Swinney—

Brian Adam (North-East Scotland) (SNP)

rose—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1805E13P109C710278", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish University for Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26977, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 588.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 588.0, "ID": 26977, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Whitefield, Karen", "ID": 1805, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Airdrie and Shotts" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Karen Whitefield", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Karen Whitefield (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 702.0, "ContributionID": 710278, "EditedText": "Like other contributors, I welcome the chance to speak in today's debate. The launch of the Scottish university for industry in autumn 2000 will mark an important and exciting time in Scotland's proud tradition of educational excellence. The university will respond constructively to the substantial pressures faced by Scots in a rapidly changing and dynamic global market. It will ensure that the learning opportunities that are offered by a range of institutions are responsive to the needs of the marketplace; by doing so, it will ensure that the Scottish people are well placed to compete for employment opportunities. It will also ensure that the learning opportunities that the institutions offer are responsive to the individual circumstances of people throughout Scotland. We live in exciting and dynamic times. For those with access to information technology, information is more readily available now than at any time in the past. Conversely, those who are socially and technologically excluded become more excluded. We need to ensure that all members of Scottish society have access to the benefits of information technology. Along with other initiatives—such as the national grid for learning—the Scottish university for industry will ensure that that happens. By establishing learning centres throughout Scotland, in places that are convenient for the individual learner rather than for the educational institutions, we will ensure that more people can take up the challenge of lifelong learning. Locating learning centres in the workplace, in local libraries, in schools or in shopping centres will allow for a more flexible approach to learning. As a member of the Social Inclusion, Housing and Voluntary Sector Committee, I welcome the investment of around £23 million over three years from the national lottery new opportunities fund to establish learning centres that will focus on the socially excluded. I am pleased that the Scottish Executive intends to add to that sum by providing £12 million over three years from the capital modernisation fund to be spent developing centres in non-traditional locations such as community schools. I also welcome the Executive's commitment to spend more than £16 million to develop the Scottish university for industry during the first three years. I believe that those spending pledges demonstrate our commitment to lifelong learning. Through those efforts, the Scottish university for industry will provide educational opportunities for the many and not the few. It will provide the Scottish taxpayer with value for money. It will be ideally placed to benefit from economies of scale and to deploy resources effectively. Learning providers will benefit from extensive marketing and promotion, which will be undertaken through a variety of methods. The promotion of new technologies will help to drive down the costs of learning materials. Effective and efficient learning opportunities will result from partnership work with agencies such as further and higher education institutions, schools, the private sector, trade unions, libraries and local enterprise companies. Like Mr Russell, I noted that SUFI has not decided where to establish its headquarters. Members will not be surprised to learn that I would like to put in a bid for Airdrie and Shotts. Situated in the heart of Scotland, Airdrie and Shotts has a wealth of talented people and a need for increased employment opportunities. What better location could be found? It makes sense for us to create educational and training systems that anticipate and respond to future knowledge needs by identifying relevant economic, employment and technical trends. That is an ambitious objective, but one that the people of Scotland deserve.", "EditedTextHTML": "Like other contributors, I welcome the chance to speak in today's debate. The launch of the Scottish university for industry in autumn 2000 will mark an important and exciting time in Scotland's proud tradition of educational excellence. The university will respond constructively to the substantial pressures faced by Scots in a rapidly changing and dynamic global market. It will ensure that the learning opportunities that are offered by a range of institutions are responsive to the needs of the marketplace; by doing so, it will ensure that the Scottish people are well placed to compete for employment opportunities. It will also ensure that the learning opportunities that the institutions offer are responsive to the individual circumstances of people throughout Scotland.

We live in exciting and dynamic times. For those with access to information technology, information is more readily available now than at any time in the past. Conversely, those who are socially and technologically excluded become more excluded. We need to ensure that all members of Scottish society have access to the benefits of information technology. Along with other initiatives—such as the national grid for learning—the Scottish university for industry will ensure that that happens.

By establishing learning centres throughout Scotland, in places that are convenient for the individual learner rather than for the educational institutions, we will ensure that more people can take up the challenge of lifelong learning. Locating learning centres in the workplace, in local libraries, in schools or in shopping centres will allow for a more flexible approach to learning.

As a member of the Social Inclusion, Housing and Voluntary Sector Committee, I welcome the investment of around £23 million over three years from the national lottery new opportunities fund to establish learning centres that will focus on the socially excluded. I am pleased that the Scottish Executive intends to add to that sum by providing £12 million over three years from the capital modernisation fund to be spent developing centres in non-traditional locations such as community schools. I also welcome the Executive's commitment to spend more than £16 million to develop the Scottish university for industry during the first three years. I believe that those spending pledges demonstrate our commitment to lifelong learning.

Through those efforts, the Scottish university for industry will provide educational opportunities for the many and not the few. It will provide the Scottish taxpayer with value for money. It will be ideally placed to benefit from economies of scale and to deploy resources effectively. Learning providers will benefit from extensive marketing and promotion, which will be undertaken through a variety of methods. The promotion of new technologies will help to drive down the costs of learning materials. Effective and efficient learning opportunities will result from partnership work with agencies such as further and higher education institutions, schools, the private sector, trade unions, libraries and local enterprise companies.

Like Mr Russell, I noted that SUFI has not decided where to establish its headquarters. Members will not be surprised to learn that I would like to put in a bid for Airdrie and Shotts. Situated in the heart of Scotland, Airdrie and Shotts has a wealth of talented people and a need for increased employment opportunities. What better location could be found?

It makes sense for us to create educational and training systems that anticipate and respond to future knowledge needs by identifying relevant economic, employment and technical trends. That is an ambitious objective, but one that the people of Scotland deserve.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1990E181P340C710280", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish University for Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26977, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 588.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 588.0, "ID": 26977, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robson, Euan", "ID": 1990, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Roxburgh and Berwickshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Euan Robson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Euan Robson (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 708.0, "ContributionID": 710280, "EditedText": "I, too, support the Scottish university for industry. It will bring new learning opportunities to the home, the workplace and the community through the creation of a multimedia learning network. I support the university's purposes: to improve the quality and availability of learning materials, to widen access for individuals and businesses— particularly small businesses—and to provide an opportunity in all parts of rural Scotland. However, the minister will not be surprised to hear that I also support the location of the national SUFI base in the Borders. The Borders is a community without a home university, although two major Edinburgh universities have a presence in the area. We have access to advanced IT networks through the recently installed Eastman broad band link, which the First Minister viewed on the Heriot-Watt University campus. We also have a unified stance and welcome from Borders College, Scottish Borders Council, the local enterprise company and other agencies driven by the new ways strategy for redeveloping the Borders economy. There are sites for the university in Peebles, Melrose, St Boswells and other places, and Edinburgh and other parts of the central belt are only an hour away. Mr Swinney talked about how things can be put into practice. Borders College is a contract partner in the major SUFI pilot consortium led by Napier University. In September, the college opened a pilot learning centre in Hawick and it is planning several more learning centres during the coming months in Galashiels, Jedburgh, Selkirk and Newcastleton. The announcement represents an exciting opportunity. Perhaps the title is a misnomer. I hear that the minister might change it. I welcome today's announcement, as widening access to training will mean that 600,000 people a year in Scotland will take courses facilitated by SUFI.", "EditedTextHTML": "I, too, support the Scottish university for industry. It will bring new learning opportunities to the home, the workplace and the community through the creation of a multimedia learning network.

I support the university's purposes: to improve the quality and availability of learning materials, to widen access for individuals and businesses— particularly small businesses—and to provide an opportunity in all parts of rural Scotland. However, the minister will not be surprised to hear that I also support the location of the national SUFI base in the Borders.

The Borders is a community without a home university, although two major Edinburgh universities have a presence in the area. We have access to advanced IT networks through the recently installed Eastman broad band link, which the First Minister viewed on the Heriot-Watt University campus. We also have a unified stance and welcome from Borders College, Scottish Borders Council, the local enterprise company and other agencies driven by the new ways strategy for redeveloping the Borders economy. There are sites for the university in Peebles, Melrose, St Boswells and other places, and Edinburgh and other parts of the central belt are only an hour away.

Mr Swinney talked about how things can be put into practice. Borders College is a contract partner in the major SUFI pilot consortium led by Napier University. In September, the college opened a pilot learning centre in Hawick and it is planning several more learning centres during the coming months in Galashiels, Jedburgh, Selkirk and Newcastleton.

The announcement represents an exciting opportunity. Perhaps the title is a misnomer. I hear that the minister might change it. I welcome today's announcement, as widening access to training will mean that 600,000 people a year in Scotland will take courses facilitated by SUFI.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1970E66P288C710283", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish University for Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26977, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 588.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 588.0, "ID": 26977, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNulty, Des", "ID": 1970, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Clydebank and Milngavie" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Des McNulty", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Des McNulty: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 715.0, "ContributionID": 710283, "EditedText": "I am just about to wind up.The document represents a positive start in the direction in which I would like to see us move, but it is not fully formed. I hope that the new management group of the university for industry and its newly appointed chief executive will take us much further forward, and that they will move us on more quickly than has been the case so far. The university for industry offers great potential to Scotland, but I would like us to have arrived at this point a bit sooner, and to move rapidly forwards.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am just about to wind up.

The document represents a positive start in the direction in which I would like to see us move, but it is not fully formed. I hope that the new management group of the university for industry and its newly appointed chief executive will take us much further forward, and that they will move us on more quickly than has been the case so far.

The university for industry offers great potential to Scotland, but I would like us to have arrived at this point a bit sooner, and to move rapidly forwards.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1889E118P162C710292", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish University for Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26977, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 588.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 588.0, "ID": 26977, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morrison, Mr Alasdair", "ID": 1889, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Western Isles" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morrison", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Morrison: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 736.0, "ContributionID": 710292, "EditedText": "I would rather deal with the points raised during the debate and not give way at this stage. I am glad to assure Mr Swinney that we will measure the effectiveness of the Scottish UFI on that basis, and on that basis I am content to accept his motion. Mr Swinney asked about revenue funding for learning centres. The Scottish UFI will stimulate most people to learn, and will bring more business to learning providers. Some learners will be funded by existing student support mechanisms; others will use independent living allowances to fund their learning, drawing on the £150 incentive from the Government and on contributions from employers' own savings. The short answer to Nicola Sturgeon's question is yes: funding of some £23 million, over three years, is available for Scotland through the national lottery's new opportunities fund to develop or enhance centres in existing premises. The aim is to increase community access to lifelong learning, particularly—as was rightly pointed out by several members—in deprived areas. Mr Monteith's point concerned the need for a distinctively Scottish UFI. Scottish ministers accepted the Scottish UFI advisory group's recommendation that, in Scotland, the university for industry should be established as a distinct organisation that reflects the different arrangements that are in place for education, training and business development in Scotland. I must make the pedantic point that education is a devolved matter. It makes no sense to set up a UK body to address a devolved issue. Jamie McGrigor raised the issue of more funding for Lews Castle College, in recognition of its remoteness. I am sure that Mr McGrigor will join me in congratulating Lews Castle College and the University of the Highlands and Islands in establishing four distance learning centres in the western isles between Ness, in the north, and Barra. It was pointed out by my colleague Mr Nicol Stephen that in Barra we have a phenomenal success story—54 people enrolled for learning courses within weeks of that learning centre's opening. In the context of a population of 1,200, that is a remarkable success. There has been the additional good news that two students have enrolled for degree courses at that centre.", "EditedTextHTML": "I would rather deal with the points raised during the debate and not give way at this stage.

I am glad to assure Mr Swinney that we will measure the effectiveness of the Scottish UFI on that basis, and on that basis I am content to accept his motion.

Mr Swinney asked about revenue funding for learning centres. The Scottish UFI will stimulate most people to learn, and will bring more business to learning providers. Some learners will be funded by existing student support mechanisms; others will use independent living allowances to fund their learning, drawing on the £150 incentive from the Government and on contributions from employers' own savings.

The short answer to Nicola Sturgeon's question is yes: funding of some £23 million, over three years, is available for Scotland through the national lottery's new opportunities fund to develop or enhance centres in existing premises. The aim is to increase community access to lifelong learning, particularly—as was rightly pointed out by several members—in deprived areas.

Mr Monteith's point concerned the need for a distinctively Scottish UFI. Scottish ministers accepted the Scottish UFI advisory group's recommendation that, in Scotland, the university for industry should be established as a distinct organisation that reflects the different arrangements that are in place for education, training and business development in Scotland. I must make the pedantic point that education is a devolved matter. It makes no sense to set up a UK body to address a devolved issue.

Jamie McGrigor raised the issue of more funding for Lews Castle College, in recognition of its remoteness. I am sure that Mr McGrigor will join me in congratulating Lews Castle College and the University of the Highlands and Islands in

establishing four distance learning centres in the western isles between Ness, in the north, and Barra. It was pointed out by my colleague Mr Nicol Stephen that in Barra we have a phenomenal success story—54 people enrolled for learning courses within weeks of that learning centre's opening. In the context of a population of 1,200, that is a remarkable success. There has been the additional good news that two students have enrolled for degree courses at that centre.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1889E118P162C710296", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish University for Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26977, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 588.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 588.0, "ID": 26977, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morrison, Mr Alasdair", "ID": 1889, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Western Isles" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morrison", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Morrison: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 744.0, "ContributionID": 710296, "EditedText": "I am literally on my last sentence, John. The UFI will build strong working relationships with those organisations in the approach to the launch in the autumn. The Scottish UFI will be for everyone. I commend the motion to the Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am literally on my last sentence, John. The UFI will build strong working relationships with those organisations in the approach to the launch in the autumn. The Scottish UFI will be for everyone. I commend the motion to the Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C710306", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26979, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 750.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 750.0, "ID": 26979, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 762.0, "ContributionID": 710306, "EditedText": "The second question is, that motion S1M-230, in the name of Mr Jack McConnell, on European structural funds, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "The second question is, that motion S1M-230, in the name of Mr Jack McConnell, on European structural funds, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4514296+00:00" }, { "ID": "C710307", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26979, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 750.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 750.0, "ID": 26979, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 764.0, "ContributionID": 710307, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4514296+00:00" }, { "ID": "C710313", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26979, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 750.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 750.0, "ID": 26979, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 776.0, "ContributionID": 710313, "EditedText": "FOR Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Godman, Trish ((West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollock) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(Lab)Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)(LD)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)AGAINST Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)ABSTENTIONS Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish ((West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollock) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(Lab)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)
(LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)

AGAINST

Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)

ABSTENTIONS

Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4514296+00:00" }, { "ID": "C710315", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26979, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 750.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 750.0, "ID": 26979, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 779.0, "ContributionID": 710315, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4514296+00:00" }, { "ID": "C710316", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26979, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 750.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 750.0, "ID": 26979, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 780.0, "ContributionID": 710316, "EditedText": "That the Parliament welcomes the intention of the Executive, in preparing for the new round of European Structural Funds Programmes in consultation with local and national partners throughout Scotland, to ensure that the new plans for Scotland complement the policy priorities in the Programme for Government.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament welcomes the intention of the Executive, in preparing for the new round of European Structural Funds Programmes in consultation with local and national partners throughout Scotland, to ensure that the new plans for Scotland complement the policy priorities in the Programme for Government.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4514296+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C710317", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26979, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 750.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 750.0, "ID": 26979, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 781.0, "ContributionID": 710317, "EditedText": "The third question is, that amendment S1M-227.1, in the name of Mr John Swinney, which seeks to amend motion S1M-227, in the name of Nicol Stephen, on the Scottish university for industry, be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "The third question is, that amendment S1M-227.1, in the name of Mr John Swinney, which seeks to amend motion S1M-227, in the name of Nicol Stephen, on the Scottish university for industry, be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4514296+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C710319", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26979, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 750.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 750.0, "ID": 26979, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 784.0, "ContributionID": 710319, "EditedText": "The fourth question is, that motion S1M-227, as amended, in the name of Nicol Stephen, on the Scottish university for industry, be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "The fourth question is, that motion S1M-227, as amended, in the name of Nicol Stephen, on the Scottish university for industry, be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4514296+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C710322", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26979, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 750.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 750.0, "ID": 26979, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 788.0, "ContributionID": 710322, "EditedText": "The fifth question is, that motion S1M-232, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, on the designation of a lead committee, be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "The fifth question is, that motion S1M-232, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, on the designation of a lead committee, be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4514296+00:00" }, { "ID": "C710325", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26979, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 750.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 750.0, "ID": 26979, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 792.0, "ContributionID": 710325, "EditedText": "The Rural Affairs Committee to consider the Organic Aid (Scotland) Amendment Regulations 1999 (SSI 1999/107).", "EditedTextHTML": "The Rural Affairs Committee to consider the Organic Aid (Scotland) Amendment Regulations 1999 (SSI 1999/107).

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4514296+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C710327", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Regional Selective Assistance", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26980, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 795.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 795.0, "ID": 26980, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ms Patricia Ferguson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 796.0, "ContributionID": 710327, "EditedText": "We now move to members' business. I ask those who are leaving to do so quickly and quietly. The final item of business today is a debate on motion S1M-128, in the name of Allan Wilson, on regional selective assistance. The debate will be concluded, without any question being put, after 30 minutes.", "EditedTextHTML": "We now move to members' business. I ask those who are leaving to do so quickly and quietly. The final item of business today is a debate on motion S1M-128, in the name of Allan Wilson, on regional selective assistance. The debate will be concluded, without any question being put, after 30 minutes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4514296+00:00" }, { "ID": "C710329", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Regional Selective Assistance", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26980, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 795.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 795.0, "ID": 26980, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 799.0, "ContributionID": 710329, "EditedText": "That the Parliament calls for the retention and development of the regional selective assistance priority scheme in areas of high and persistent unemployment.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament calls for the retention and development of the regional selective assistance priority scheme in areas of high and persistent unemployment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4514296+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C710334", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Regional Selective Assistance", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26980, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 795.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 795.0, "ID": 26980, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Murray Tosh (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 812.0, "ContributionID": 710334, "EditedText": "I endorse what John Swinney said about supporting Allan Wilson's motion and agree with what he said about finding more effective ways to support companies that are most likely to expand. Regional development requires joined-up government—it is not just a matter of economic incentive. Irene Oldfather was correct to point to the importance of local education opportunities; that must be done strategically. I have spoken before about transport as an important strategic factor. I know the Ardrossan, Saltcoats and Stevenston area, as I was a candidate in Stevenston at the general election. Thus I appreciate that the Ayrshire lobby for the M77 must look at the transport requirements of that part of Ayrshire as well. The local authority's ambitions for economic development are unlikely to be realised without decent transport infrastructure. That argument is true for all the south of Scotland and, indeed, for many other areas of Scotland. The Executive must look at transport in relation to the location of industry. One of the issues that disadvantaged Ayrshire was the selection of sites for high-technology, single-user industries, when Ayrshire lost out to the Clyde valley. The Government must make sure that sites are available, because the promotion of sites through Locate in Scotland and other agencies is often critical to decisions made on location. The fine-tuning of the map for selective assistance was a subtle attempt to maximise the number of areas and the proportion of population that would be covered. It has become clear from the fallout since then that concentrating on wards where the unemployment figures are high does not do the whole job. Mention was made today of problems in Dundee—there are similar problems in Galashiels and other areas. The industrial zonings, the sites, the facilities and the buildings might not be in the wards designated—grants must go to wards where the industrial estates are. In some cases, the map misses the places where the money needs to go. I do not know whether it is possible to fine-tune it before the Community finalises it, but if there is any way in which the Executive can do so, I hope that it will take on board the concerns of local authorities and enterprise agencies across Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "I endorse what John Swinney said about supporting Allan Wilson's motion and agree with what he said about finding more effective ways to support companies that are most likely to expand. Regional development requires joined-up government—it is not just a matter of economic incentive. Irene Oldfather was correct to point to the importance of local education opportunities; that must be done strategically.

I have spoken before about transport as an important strategic factor. I know the Ardrossan, Saltcoats and Stevenston area, as I was a candidate in Stevenston at the general election. Thus I appreciate that the Ayrshire lobby for the M77 must look at the transport requirements of that part of Ayrshire as well. The local authority's ambitions for economic development are unlikely to be realised without decent transport infrastructure. That argument is true for all the south of Scotland and, indeed, for many other areas of Scotland. The Executive must look at transport in relation to the location of industry.

One of the issues that disadvantaged Ayrshire was the selection of sites for high-technology, single-user industries, when Ayrshire lost out to the Clyde valley. The Government must make sure that sites are available, because the promotion of sites through Locate in Scotland and other agencies is often critical to decisions made on location.

The fine-tuning of the map for selective assistance was a subtle attempt to maximise the number of areas and the proportion of population that would be covered. It has become clear from the fallout since then that concentrating on wards where the unemployment figures are high does not do the whole job. Mention was made today of problems in Dundee—there are similar problems in Galashiels and other areas.

The industrial zonings, the sites, the facilities and the buildings might not be in the wards designated—grants must go to wards where the industrial estates are. In some cases, the map misses the places where the money needs to go. I do not know whether it is possible to fine-tune it before the Community finalises it, but if there is any way in which the Executive can do so, I hope that it will take on board the concerns of local authorities and enterprise agencies across Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4514296+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C710288", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish University for Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26977, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 588.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 588.0, "ID": 26977, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fergus Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 727.0, "ContributionID": 710288, "EditedText": "Pass, Deputy Presiding Officer.Why cannot existing institutions provide the worthwhile functions the Government has set out and with which we concur? Thirdly, and specifically on funding, we understand that of the £16.3 million, £12 million will come from the capital modernisation fund. That leaves a shortfall of £4.3 million. Am I right to draw the conclusion that that £4.3 million will come from existing tertiary education institutions? Where will it come from? I am happy to give way to the deputy minister now, if he has any answers.", "EditedTextHTML": "Pass, Deputy Presiding Officer.

Why cannot existing institutions provide the worthwhile functions the Government has set out and with which we concur?

Thirdly, and specifically on funding, we understand that of the £16.3 million, £12 million will come from the capital modernisation fund. That leaves a shortfall of £4.3 million. Am I right to draw the conclusion that that £4.3 million will come from existing tertiary education institutions? Where will it come from? I am happy to give way to the deputy minister now, if he has any answers.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:00:05.4949914+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C710290", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish University for Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26977, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 588.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 588.0, "ID": 26977, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fergus Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 731.0, "ContributionID": 710290, "EditedText": "Okay.Fourthly, what will the operating costs be? Half a million pounds seems far lower than what I would expect, given what I have heard. Fifthly, what happened to the marketing campaign that Kim Howells referred to last year in the House of Commons? As George Lyon said, small businesses have needs that require to be met, but they know absolutely nothing about this project at the moment and they have no means of knowing how to avail themselves of the advantages that it might provide. I am delighted that, for the second day running, the Executive has had the good sense to support an SNP amendment. It is a trend that, sadly, I think will be short lived. The amendment contains vital ideas. One is that before there can be a university for industry—a brokerage if that is what it is—two conditions must be met: value added and performance measurement. I would say, as a solicitor in my old days, that that is a condition precedent. Those two criteria must be fulfilled before the new body can be launched, exist or go anywhere. In this debate, as in life, there have been more questions than answers. I think that it is the duty of the Government to provide answers. I hope that we will hear some.", "EditedTextHTML": "Okay.

Fourthly, what will the operating costs be? Half a million pounds seems far lower than what I would expect, given what I have heard.

Fifthly, what happened to the marketing campaign that Kim Howells referred to last year in the House of Commons? As George Lyon said, small businesses have needs that require to be met, but they know absolutely nothing about this project at the moment and they have no means of knowing how to avail themselves of the advantages that it might provide.

I am delighted that, for the second day running, the Executive has had the good sense to support an SNP amendment. It is a trend that, sadly, I think will be short lived. The amendment contains vital ideas. One is that before there can be a university for industry—a brokerage if that is what it is—two conditions must be met: value added and performance measurement. I would say, as a solicitor in my old days, that that is a condition precedent. Those two criteria must be fulfilled before the new body can be launched, exist or go anywhere.

In this debate, as in life, there have been more questions than answers. I think that it is the duty of the Government to provide answers. I hope that we will hear some.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:00:05.4949914+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C710031", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fergus Ewing (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP) rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 162.0, "ContributionID": 710031, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:01:17.5713192+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1870E181P475C710191", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26955, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 354.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26956, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 355.0, "QuestionHeading": "Objective 2 Funding", "QuestionHeadingID": 26971, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 508.0, "DisplayOrder": 508.0, "ID": 26971, "ParentID": 26956 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robison, Shona", "ID": 1870, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Shona Robison", "SpeakerDisplayName": "16. Shona Robison (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 509.0, "ContributionID": 710191, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what impact the change to objective 2 status will have in Dundee, specifically in relation to the exclusion of the science and technology park and the universities from the new objective 2 boundary. (S1O-473) The Minister for Finance (Mr Jack McConnell): The proposals for objective 2 coverage in Scotland target significant areas of need. More than 50 per cent of the population of Dundee should be covered by full objective 2 status. We will ensure that the transitional funding is targeted on the main priorities in transition areas— which could be the science park and the university campus in Dundee, if that is considered appropriate by those involved in the planning process. I have already passed representations on this issue from Kate MacLean MSP to those responsible, as she raised these points with me three weeks ago.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what impact the change to objective 2 status will have in Dundee, specifically in relation to the exclusion of the science and technology park and the universities from the new objective 2 boundary. (S1O-473) The Minister for Finance (Mr Jack McConnell): The proposals for objective 2 coverage in Scotland target significant areas of need. More than 50 per cent of the population of Dundee should be covered by full objective 2 status.

We will ensure that the transitional funding is targeted on the main priorities in transition areas— which could be the science park and the university campus in Dundee, if that is considered

appropriate by those involved in the planning process. I have already passed representations on this issue from Kate MacLean MSP to those responsible, as she raised these points with me three weeks ago.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:01:26.0699041+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1870E181P475C710192", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26955, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 354.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26956, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 355.0, "QuestionHeading": "Objective 2 Funding", "QuestionHeadingID": 26971, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 508.0, "DisplayOrder": 508.0, "ID": 26971, "ParentID": 26956 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robison, Shona", "ID": 1870, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Shona Robison", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Shona Robison: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 511.0, "ContributionID": 710192, "EditedText": "What criteria will the minister use when considering the amendments? What will be the time scale, given that the whole package requires to be approved by Christmas?", "EditedTextHTML": "What criteria will the minister use when considering the amendments? What will be the time scale, given that the whole package requires to be approved by Christmas?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:01:26.0699041+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C710286", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish University for Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26977, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 588.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 588.0, "ID": 26977, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fergus Ewing (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 723.0, "ContributionID": 710286, "EditedText": "When I glanced at the document rather late last night after a long and heavy dinner, I thought at first that it was not a Government publication at all but, because of the striking good looks of all the individuals involved, the portfolio of a local model agency. After I realised that my first perceptions were incorrect, I struggled through the night to work out exactly what the document is all about. We all welcome the idea and the concept but, as T S Eliot once said: \"Between the idea And the reality\"falls the problem. As Mr McNulty said, there has already been unacceptable delay and we have little more than an idea, a concept. It is the Government's duty to come forward with workable, thought-out schemes that are capable of being implemented to meet their own purposes. Just yesterday, the document described the proposed body as the Scottish university for industry. Today, we learn from Nicol Stephen that it is not going to be called the university for industry. In the history of the world of tertiary education, surely there has never been a university of such short duration—just 24 hours. I appreciate that I am a man of modest imagination, but perhaps the new name will be the new university for industry. Laughter. To be serious, there is a worthy aim here. People need to develop skills and businesses need to find people to perform the work required for the future. However, if the role of the body is to matchmake, we are not talking about a university for industry at all, but about a dating agency. I have nothing whatever against that concept; in fact, I rather welcome it. I wonder, however—again being serious for a moment—what is the reaction of the existing universities in Scotland to this new, proposed body, which has changed its name after 24 hours, and has unfortunately not yet got a new name on its birth certificate. What is the reaction of the further education colleges to this new kid on the quadrangle? I think that we should be told. I think that we should also be told the answers to questions that have been asked by members on all sides of the chamber. Being part of a debate that is relatively free of political point scoring—in which I do not indulge myself, but which I have noticed goes on here from time to time—is a welcome experience. I am bound to ask the following five questions. First, what will be different about the new body? Secondly, what that is different can the new institution do that others—such as the University of the Highlands and Islands learning resource centre, which, as Elaine Murray mentioned, the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee visited last week—cannot? Did I notice Alasdair getting off that posterior of his, which was referred to earlier in the debate, or is it just my imagination?", "EditedTextHTML": "When I glanced at the document rather late last night after a long and heavy dinner, I thought at first that it was not a Government publication at all but, because of the striking good looks of all the individuals involved, the portfolio of a local model agency. After I realised that my first perceptions were incorrect, I struggled through the night to work out exactly what the document is all about.

We all welcome the idea and the concept but, as T S Eliot once said:

\"Between the idea And the reality\"

falls the problem. As Mr McNulty said, there has already been unacceptable delay and we have little more than an idea, a concept. It is the Government's duty to come forward with workable, thought-out schemes that are capable of being implemented to meet their own purposes.

Just yesterday, the document described the proposed body as the Scottish university for industry. Today, we learn from Nicol Stephen that it is not going to be called the university for industry. In the history of the world of tertiary education, surely there has never been a university of such short duration—just 24 hours. I appreciate that I am a man of modest imagination, but perhaps the new name will be the new university for industry. [Laughter.]

To be serious, there is a worthy aim here. People need to develop skills and businesses need to find people to perform the work required for the future. However, if the role of the body is to matchmake, we are not talking about a university for industry at all, but about a dating agency. I have nothing whatever against that concept; in fact, I rather welcome it.

I wonder, however—again being serious for a moment—what is the reaction of the existing universities in Scotland to this new, proposed body, which has changed its name after 24 hours, and has unfortunately not yet got a new name on its birth certificate. What is the reaction of the further education colleges to this new kid on the quadrangle? I think that we should be told.

I think that we should also be told the answers to questions that have been asked by members on all sides of the chamber. Being part of a debate that is relatively free of political point scoring—in which I do not indulge myself, but which I have noticed goes on here from time to time—is a welcome experience.

I am bound to ask the following five questions. First, what will be different about the new body? Secondly, what that is different can the new institution do that others—such as the University of the Highlands and Islands learning resource centre, which, as Elaine Murray mentioned, the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee visited last week—cannot?

Did I notice Alasdair getting off that posterior of his, which was referred to earlier in the debate, or is it just my imagination?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:00:05.4949914+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2180E179P471C710076", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fisheries Council", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26953, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 257.0, "ID": 26953, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lochhead, Richard", "ID": 2180, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Lochhead", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Richard Lochhead (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 263.0, "ContributionID": 710076, "EditedText": "I welcome this statement coming so soon after the Fisheries Council meeting, although I am astonished that it will not be a regular occurrence. I urge the minister to take on board the pelagic industry's concerns as these discussions are on-going. Does the minister agree that it is not just attendance at Fisheries Council meetings that matters? What matters is being able to wield authority on behalf of the Scottish fishing industry. I would like to know if he did that, how he did that, and if he had to clear his line with the minister from the fisheries department in London? Did he have to clear his line before sticking up for the Scottish fishing industry? That is an important question for the fishermen in connection with issues such as fleet renewal and modernisation, which are referred to in the statement. If funds become available under the proposed regulations, does the minister support the industry's case to access funds for fleet renewal and modernisation which have been denied them in the past? Will he put the industry's case on that matter?", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome this statement coming so soon after the Fisheries Council meeting, although I am astonished that it will not be a regular occurrence. I urge the minister to take on board the pelagic industry's concerns as these discussions are on-going.

Does the minister agree that it is not just attendance at Fisheries Council meetings that matters? What matters is being able to wield authority on behalf of the Scottish fishing industry. I would like to know if he did that, how he did that, and if he had to clear his line with the minister from the fisheries department in London? Did he

have to clear his line before sticking up for the Scottish fishing industry? That is an important question for the fishermen in connection with issues such as fleet renewal and modernisation, which are referred to in the statement. If funds become available under the proposed regulations, does the minister support the industry's case to access funds for fleet renewal and modernisation which have been denied them in the past? Will he put the industry's case on that matter?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:55.929179+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C709999", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Davidson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 87.0, "ContributionID": 709999, "EditedText": "It strikes me as typical of the left- leaning collection of members from the SNP to want to label everything. The Conservative party in Scotland wants Scotland to be a strong member of an even stronger United Kingdom that is capable of doing its best in the world, which includes Europe. We are part of Europe, we have contributed to Europe and we will continue to do so. Unlike the SNP, we may not welcome too much intervention in our internal affairs, because we think that decentralisation tends to make for better decision making. We would rather that the UK took upon itself some of the measures that come across to us from Europe. Perhaps Bruce Crawford will join me in saying that some of our civil servants tend to gold-plate regulations, and that ministers go along with it. Our party does not favour that. The member needs to think on a stage further. It is irrelevant to apply labels to us from down south. We are in a different situation.", "EditedTextHTML": "It strikes me as typical of the left- leaning collection of members from the SNP to want to label everything. The Conservative party in Scotland wants Scotland to be a strong member of an even stronger United Kingdom that is capable of doing its best in the world, which includes Europe. We are part of Europe, we have contributed to Europe and we will continue to do so. Unlike the SNP, we may not welcome too much intervention in our internal affairs, because we think that decentralisation tends to make for better decision making. We would rather that the UK took upon itself some of the measures that come across to us from Europe. Perhaps Bruce Crawford will join me in saying that some of our civil servants tend to gold-plate regulations, and that ministers go along with it. Our party does not favour that. The member needs to think on a stage further. It is irrelevant to apply labels to us from down south. We are in a different situation.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C709960", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Finance (Mr Jack McConnell): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 7.0, "ContributionID": 709960, "EditedText": "I am happy today to move the motion, but disappointed that Mr Sheridan has not been able to make it to the debate. The role of the Parliament and the Executive in Europe was ably shown earlier this month in the excellent organisation of Scotland week and the formal opening of Scotland House in Brussels. I want to put on record my thanks and congratulations to everyone in the Scottish Executive office, the Scotland Europa office and the UK representative office in Brussels who helped with the success of Scotland week. A number of important discussions were held not only behind the scenes, but at some productive and positive conferences and seminars on finance, democratic renewal, the environment, education, justice, jobs and Scottish culture. We also made positive use of the opportunity to promote and market Scottish beef and lamb. All in all, it was a successful week, which ensured that Scotland had arrived in Brussels. It put Scotland on the European map, improved our contacts and profile and made an impact. It also showed starkly the dual benefit that Scotland receives from devolution through having its own profile and role in Europe while enjoying the clout that comes from being part of one of the larger member states. In that context, I am delighted to move this motion on European structural funds. On 11 October, during that week in Brussels, the First Minister and I saw Commissioner Barnier and agreed that the key aim for the next seven years had to be to ensure that we used structural funds to leave a lasting legacy for the future. This Parliament and the Scottish Executive are now responsible for implementing structural funds in Scotland; we work closely with the Scotland Office and other parts of the United Kingdom Government, most recently in making recommendations for objective 2 coverage in Scotland. The forthcoming enlargement of the European Union makes it likely that this round of structural fund programmes will be the last one from which Scotland will benefit significantly, so our overall aim must be to ensure that we use the structural funds effectively, efficiently and in a way that complements our policy objectives. The programmes also serve as an important spur to ensure that our policy contributes to European policy guidelines in a range of areas. In that way, we can be sure that Scotland is playing its full part in the Prime Minister's clear objective that Britain should play a full role in shaping the future of Europe. Our proposals for the use of European funding in the Highlands and Islands are almost ready for submission to the European Commission. Many members will recall the welcome that was given to the award of the special programme to the area in March this year. No area should want to be in objective 1, of course, as that signifies that it is among the poorest areas of Europe and has real economic problems. However, it is important that the allocation of objective 1 status across the European Union is fair. With gross domestic product in the Highlands and Islands at 76 per cent of the EU average, which is just above the 75 per cent cut-off for objective 1 status, and sparsity of population also just above the cut-off—9 per square kilometre compared with a cut-off of 8—it was important that the area's problems were recognised. We were and continue to be grateful for the contribution that structural funds make to the Highlands and Islands. I hope that we can use the new package to ensure that the area need not even be considered for objective 1 funding in the next round of the programme. To ensure that all the major local players in the area have contributed to the plan, the plan team has brought together ideas and consulted widely within the area. It has concluded that the main priorities for the area are to increase business competitiveness, to create the conditions for regional competitiveness and to promote the development of the people in the area by fighting unemployment, promoting lifelong learning and social inclusion and supporting the primary sectors of agriculture and fisheries. Those priorities find resonance in the priorities for the European Union, and are reflected at a UK, Scottish and local level. They mirror closely and will complement the Executive's priorities as outlined in the programme for government. The priorities for action are not surprising. As European structural funding meets at most only half the cost of any project, there must be support at a local level to ensure that any project can proceed. As Commissioner Barnier said to me, the European Commission does not want to make all areas the same; it recognises distinct regional identities. As a result, it is not only the wording of the strategies that is important, but how they are put in place. We must, therefore, use the funds efficiently and effectively. In an area such as the Highlands and Islands, which is diverse and, arguably, has several micro- economies, it is not possible to say that one or two projects will make all the difference to the area. The strategy developed by the plan team is therefore one that enables rather than prescribes. In the rapidly changing world in which we live, even areas once considered remote, such as the Highlands and Islands, are now affected by increasing global competitiveness. Therefore, the strategy that we put in place must allow the area to take advantage of developments in the next seven years. I also want to concentrate on what is termed internal cohesion—reducing the differences between local areas within the Highlands and Islands. Measures that deal with social inclusion, address gender imbalances in the labour market and improve community and social infrastructure will be as important as improvements to the communications infrastructure in the area as a whole. We must raise incomes and improve year- round opportunities in all parts of the Highlands and Islands. The special programme for the Highlands and Islands recognises the area's particular difficulties. However, across Scotland, our aim during the next seven years will be to ensure that the available moneys are used in the most durable and cost- efficient way to deliver real results and to help bring the most deprived areas into the main stream. The European structural funds support and complement important policy objectives in many areas that are the responsibility of this Parliament. I want to stress in particular the role that the funds will play, in line with European and UK priorities, in complementing our policy objectives in enterprise and work-related training. The objective 2 and Highlands and Islands programmes will have important business development components. Objective 3, too, will promote the development of important work-related skills in employment. Similarly, there will be an emphasis on helping those who are unemployed to go back to work. Social inclusion will be a big priority for the new programmes. The focus on helping areas of need under the new objective 2 programmes will bring an increasing emphasis on developing economic opportunities and social structures in our most deprived communities. I strongly welcome the new emphases in the new programmes. There is a new and reinvigorated emphasis on promoting equal opportunities and on mainstreaming them across the public sector. Priority is also given to the promotion of sustainable development and environmental protection, including the promotion of renewable energies and energy efficiency. When I was in Brussels some weeks ago, I was pleased to welcome the preparation of sustainable development strategies by the East of Scotland and the Highlands and Islands European partnerships. The strategies will help to put the new environmental standards set by the Amsterdam treaty at the heart of the way in which we implement structural funds. Structural funds also support new technologies and the development of the information society. They support sustainable jobs in tourism and in cultural and natural heritage. They also provide viable support for co-operation between Scotland and other regions of the Community, through the URBAN and LEADER Community initiatives, for example, and the important programmes linking the northern periphery. All those measures are important priorities for the Scottish Executive and we look forward to effective use of European resources to support them.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am happy today to move the motion, but disappointed that Mr Sheridan has not been able to make it to the debate.

The role of the Parliament and the Executive in Europe was ably shown earlier this month in the excellent organisation of Scotland week and the formal opening of Scotland House in Brussels. I want to put on record my thanks and congratulations to everyone in the Scottish Executive office, the Scotland Europa office and the UK representative office in Brussels who helped with the success of Scotland week. A number of important discussions were held not only behind the scenes, but at some productive and positive conferences and seminars on finance, democratic renewal, the environment, education, justice, jobs and Scottish culture. We also made positive use of the opportunity to promote and market Scottish beef and lamb.

All in all, it was a successful week, which ensured that Scotland had arrived in Brussels. It put Scotland on the European map, improved our contacts and profile and made an impact. It also showed starkly the dual benefit that Scotland receives from devolution through having its own profile and role in Europe while enjoying the clout that comes from being part of one of the larger member states. In that context, I am delighted to move this motion on European structural funds.

On 11 October, during that week in Brussels, the First Minister and I saw Commissioner Barnier and agreed that the key aim for the next seven years had to be to ensure that we used structural funds to leave a lasting legacy for the future. This Parliament and the Scottish Executive are now responsible for implementing structural funds in Scotland; we work closely with the Scotland Office and other parts of the United Kingdom

Government, most recently in making recommendations for objective 2 coverage in Scotland.

The forthcoming enlargement of the European Union makes it likely that this round of structural fund programmes will be the last one from which Scotland will benefit significantly, so our overall aim must be to ensure that we use the structural funds effectively, efficiently and in a way that complements our policy objectives. The programmes also serve as an important spur to ensure that our policy contributes to European policy guidelines in a range of areas. In that way, we can be sure that Scotland is playing its full part in the Prime Minister's clear objective that Britain should play a full role in shaping the future of Europe.

Our proposals for the use of European funding in the Highlands and Islands are almost ready for submission to the European Commission. Many members will recall the welcome that was given to the award of the special programme to the area in March this year. No area should want to be in objective 1, of course, as that signifies that it is among the poorest areas of Europe and has real economic problems. However, it is important that the allocation of objective 1 status across the European Union is fair.

With gross domestic product in the Highlands and Islands at 76 per cent of the EU average, which is just above the 75 per cent cut-off for objective 1 status, and sparsity of population also just above the cut-off—9 per square kilometre compared with a cut-off of 8—it was important that the area's problems were recognised. We were and continue to be grateful for the contribution that structural funds make to the Highlands and Islands. I hope that we can use the new package to ensure that the area need not even be considered for objective 1 funding in the next round of the programme.

To ensure that all the major local players in the area have contributed to the plan, the plan team has brought together ideas and consulted widely within the area. It has concluded that the main priorities for the area are to increase business competitiveness, to create the conditions for regional competitiveness and to promote the development of the people in the area by fighting unemployment, promoting lifelong learning and social inclusion and supporting the primary sectors of agriculture and fisheries. Those priorities find resonance in the priorities for the European Union, and are reflected at a UK, Scottish and local level. They mirror closely and will complement the Executive's priorities as outlined in the programme for government.

The priorities for action are not surprising. As European structural funding meets at most only

half the cost of any project, there must be support at a local level to ensure that any project can proceed. As Commissioner Barnier said to me, the European Commission does not want to make all areas the same; it recognises distinct regional identities. As a result, it is not only the wording of the strategies that is important, but how they are put in place. We must, therefore, use the funds efficiently and effectively.

In an area such as the Highlands and Islands, which is diverse and, arguably, has several micro- economies, it is not possible to say that one or two projects will make all the difference to the area. The strategy developed by the plan team is therefore one that enables rather than prescribes.

In the rapidly changing world in which we live, even areas once considered remote, such as the Highlands and Islands, are now affected by increasing global competitiveness. Therefore, the strategy that we put in place must allow the area to take advantage of developments in the next seven years.

I also want to concentrate on what is termed internal cohesion—reducing the differences between local areas within the Highlands and Islands. Measures that deal with social inclusion, address gender imbalances in the labour market and improve community and social infrastructure will be as important as improvements to the communications infrastructure in the area as a whole. We must raise incomes and improve year- round opportunities in all parts of the Highlands and Islands.

The special programme for the Highlands and Islands recognises the area's particular difficulties. However, across Scotland, our aim during the next seven years will be to ensure that the available moneys are used in the most durable and cost- efficient way to deliver real results and to help bring the most deprived areas into the main stream.

The European structural funds support and complement important policy objectives in many areas that are the responsibility of this Parliament. I want to stress in particular the role that the funds will play, in line with European and UK priorities, in complementing our policy objectives in enterprise and work-related training. The objective 2 and Highlands and Islands programmes will have important business development components. Objective 3, too, will promote the development of important work-related skills in employment. Similarly, there will be an emphasis on helping those who are unemployed to go back to work. Social inclusion will be a big priority for the new programmes. The focus on helping areas of need under the new objective 2 programmes will bring an increasing emphasis on developing economic opportunities and social structures in our most deprived communities.

I strongly welcome the new emphases in the new programmes. There is a new and reinvigorated emphasis on promoting equal opportunities and on mainstreaming them across the public sector. Priority is also given to the promotion of sustainable development and environmental protection, including the promotion of renewable energies and energy efficiency. When I was in Brussels some weeks ago, I was pleased to welcome the preparation of sustainable development strategies by the East of Scotland and the Highlands and Islands European partnerships. The strategies will help to put the new environmental standards set by the Amsterdam treaty at the heart of the way in which we implement structural funds.

Structural funds also support new technologies and the development of the information society. They support sustainable jobs in tourism and in cultural and natural heritage. They also provide viable support for co-operation between Scotland and other regions of the Community, through the URBAN and LEADER Community initiatives, for example, and the important programmes linking the northern periphery. All those measures are important priorities for the Scottish Executive and we look forward to effective use of European resources to support them.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C709964", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 15.0, "ContributionID": 709964, "EditedText": "My officials have already held discussions with representatives of Dundee City Council on that matter. I expect the plan team not only to take on board those representations but to ensure that the area where the university is located is taken fully into account in the plans for transition funding. As I said, if the Commission questions any of the areas that have been included in the UK proposals—or any of the criteria on which those proposals are based—we will reconsider the map proposals. However, the current proposals were based on objective criteria and are now before the European Commission. The proposals allow for coverage of some 40 per cent of the Scottish population. That proportion is greater than those of any comparable EU member state—for example, Sweden's coverage is 14 per cent, Finland's is 31 per cent and, for that matter, England's coverage is 24 per cent. Moreover, areas that previously qualified will be eligible for substantial transition funding of some £75 million, which means that more than 85 per cent of Scotland will be eligible for regionally based European programmes into the next millennium.", "EditedTextHTML": "My officials have already held discussions with representatives of Dundee City Council on that matter. I expect the plan team not only to take on board those representations but to ensure that the area where the university is located is taken fully into account in the plans for transition funding. As I said, if the Commission questions any of the areas that have been included in the UK proposals—or any of the criteria on which those proposals are based—we will reconsider the map proposals. However, the current proposals were based on objective criteria and are now before the European Commission.

The proposals allow for coverage of some 40 per cent of the Scottish population. That proportion is greater than those of any comparable EU member state—for example, Sweden's coverage is 14 per cent, Finland's is 31 per cent and, for that matter, England's coverage is 24 per cent. Moreover, areas that previously qualified will be eligible for substantial transition funding of some £75 million, which means that more than 85 per cent of Scotland will be eligible for regionally based European programmes into the next millennium.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C709968", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 23.0, "ContributionID": 709968, "EditedText": "I am keen for smaller bodies that are responsible for the quality of the programmes and strategy to be represented but I also want broad-based representative bodies to be involved in the implementation, in the Highlands and Islands and elsewhere. That broad-based representation would be most appropriate in the implementation bodies. It will be important to ensure that the smaller monitoring committees or boards have a wider representative role; for that purpose, it would be wrong to say that every local authority in Scotland would be represented. I am certain that the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities and the individual authorities will welcome the presence of elected representatives on the new bodies.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am keen for smaller bodies that are responsible for the quality of the programmes and strategy to be represented but I also want broad-based representative bodies to be involved in the implementation, in the Highlands and Islands and elsewhere. That broad-based representation would be most appropriate in the implementation bodies. It will be important to ensure that the smaller monitoring committees or boards have a wider representative role; for that purpose, it would be wrong to say that every local authority in Scotland would be represented. I am certain that the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities and the individual authorities will welcome the presence of elected representatives on the new bodies.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C709997", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bruce Crawford: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 83.0, "ContributionID": 709997, "EditedText": "Will the member tell us to which arm of the Conservative party he belongs?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member tell us to which arm of the Conservative party he belongs?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C709970", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 27.0, "ContributionID": 709970, "EditedText": "I was keen to take the interventions because of the subject. I will shortly be seeking nominations for the five new committees, which are to be in place by the new year. There will also be a review of the operation of the programme management executives and the way in which they relate to the Scottish Executive, to ensure that the good lessons from the way in which those bodies have operated in the past can be applied to make the administration of the new programmes as efficient as possible. Details of the review team will be announced next week.Scotland has had a good deal from European Union structural funds and has been a model for their implementation. In the new circumstances, we, as an Executive and as a Parliament, have a role in getting a fair deal for Scotland and in implementing it in line with our other priorities. We must ensure that national strategy is linked with local decisions and that in taking action we make maximum use of the added value of the structural funds. We want to fulfil our priorities and create new life opportunities across Scotland. We want to plan for a future where such funds may not exist. We want to stop falsely moaning about the past. European funds are one of our responsibilities, as is Scotland's profile in Europe, which we started to develop very successfully earlier this month, during Scotland week. Much more needs to be done. Through our use of the structural funds, and in other ways, we can exploit our unique position as a devolved legislature within the UK and the European Union. We can also make a contribution to European Union development and to the development of other regions and nations. I hope that we will take up that opportunity. I move,That the Parliament welcomes the intention of the Executive, in preparing for the new round of European Structural Funds Programmes in consultation with local and national partners throughout Scotland, to ensure that the new plans for Scotland complement the policy priorities in the Programme for Government.", "EditedTextHTML": "I was keen to take the interventions because of the subject.

I will shortly be seeking nominations for the five new committees, which are to be in place by the new year. There will also be a review of the operation of the programme management executives and the way in which they relate to the Scottish Executive, to ensure that the good lessons from the way in which those bodies have operated in the past can be applied to make the administration of the new programmes as efficient as possible. Details of the review team will be

announced next week.

Scotland has had a good deal from European Union structural funds and has been a model for their implementation. In the new circumstances, we, as an Executive and as a Parliament, have a role in getting a fair deal for Scotland and in implementing it in line with our other priorities. We must ensure that national strategy is linked with local decisions and that in taking action we make maximum use of the added value of the structural funds. We want to fulfil our priorities and create new life opportunities across Scotland. We want to plan for a future where such funds may not exist. We want to stop falsely moaning about the past.

European funds are one of our responsibilities, as is Scotland's profile in Europe, which we started to develop very successfully earlier this month, during Scotland week. Much more needs to be done. Through our use of the structural funds, and in other ways, we can exploit our unique position as a devolved legislature within the UK and the European Union. We can also make a contribution to European Union development and to the development of other regions and nations. I hope that we will take up that opportunity.

I move,

That the Parliament welcomes the intention of the Executive, in preparing for the new round of European Structural Funds Programmes in consultation with local and national partners throughout Scotland, to ensure that the new plans for Scotland complement the policy priorities in the Programme for Government.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C709974", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bruce Crawford: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 36.0, "ContributionID": 709974, "EditedText": "That is exactly the point, Mr Henry. I ask him about Finland and Sweden given their particular situation—MEMBERS: \"Answer the question.\" I will come to exactly what I mean by that in a minute. The reality is that between 1994 and 1999 the Highlands and Islands was allocated €311 million and over the next seven years that will drop to €300 million. That €300 million will have an immediate call on it of €45 million from the European agricultural guidance and guarantee fund.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is exactly the point, Mr Henry. I ask him about Finland and Sweden given their particular situation—[[MEMBERS: \"Answer the question.\"] I will come to exactly what I mean by that in a minute. The reality is that between 1994 and 1999 the Highlands and Islands was allocated €311 million and over the next seven years that will drop to €300 million. That €300 million will have an immediate call on it of €45 million from the European agricultural guidance and guarantee fund.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C709976", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bruce Crawford: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 40.0, "ContributionID": 709976, "EditedText": "I will turn to the special package. I well recall the fanfare when it was announced. It had always been the European Commission's intention to support areas losing objective 1 status by a period of transition funding, as the minister knows. If the deal was special, why was the House of Commons library able to confirm in a letter to Alex Salmond on 23 March that the regions that were losing their current status would be eligible for transitional assistance? There was no special win. After that letter, I did a bit more digging and I am now clear that the level of spin and deceit being practised over the so-called special deal is staggering. For evidence we need to look no further than the European Commission's own analysis of the reform of structural funds in 1999, which gives the European Commission's view of the Berlin council and an accurate picture of the Berlin decisions without the spin attached. Under the heading \"Transitional support\" it says: \"The regulation establishes a transitional assistance mechanism for regions eligible under Objective 1 in 1999 but which will no longer be eligible in 2000.\" The next paragraph is about special programmes: \"In accordance with the decisions taken by the European Council in Berlin two special programmes will be financed within the framework of Objective 1\" and names \"the PEACE programme, which supports the peace process in Northern Ireland\" and a special assistance programme for Sweden. No mention is made of any special programme for the Highlands and Islands. Those are the European Commission's own words—a fact. Winnie Ewing will return to that issue. In general, we are supportive of the move towards a ward-based approach for the targeting of objective 2 funding, but we are deeply disappointed that there has been a reduction of around 20 per cent in that funding, compared with the previous programme. There is widespread worry that the boundaries may have been drawn too tightly and, as a result, some obvious candidates for inclusion may have been missed out. I hope that the minister notes that, with our reasonable amendment, we are being constructive in seeking to help the areas across Scotland that rightly feel hard done by. Additionality is a concept that has always bothered the Labour party. Who could forget the difficulties that poor old Bob Gillespie got himself into during the Govan by-election, when the concept of additionality was raised with him? There is a paradox in the Government's position that requires to be exposed through deeper understanding and greater transparency. Let us examine a couple of the European Commission's definitions of additionality and contrast them with the Executive's stated position. First, the Commission's description of the main operating principles of structural policies: \"Action taken by the Union must be in addition to and never replace resources already deployed by national and local authorities for regional development and job creation\". Secondly, and perhaps more authoritatively, a statement on 21 June from the council regulations laid down the general provisions for structural funds: \"In order to achieve a genuine economic impact, the appropriations of the Funds may not replace public or other equivalent structural expenditure by the Member State.\" Those statements are clear and unambiguous in comparison to the Executive's stated position. For examples of that, we need look no further than the First Minister. On 7 October in this chamber I asked him to confirm that \"structural funds are non-additional to Scotland's overall bottom-line position.\" He replied:\"That is broadly correct. Budget provision is made for European structural funds within the Scottish assigned budget each year.\"—Official Report, 7 October 1999; Vol 2, c 1174. In The Herald the following day, the First Minister's spokesman further explained the Government's position: \"If money from Europe goes up then the money we get from the Treasury would go down because we can't go above what we are entitled to under the Barnett formula.\" Those are clear explanations. The Minister for Finance confirmed the Executive's position at the European Committee meeting on 19 October: \"As less money is spent from European structural funds, surpluses will be freed up to be used for other purposes.\"— Official Report, European Committee, 19 October 1999; c 197. The fact that true additionality—or even added value—is not being achieved was further exposed by the Minister for Finance's private secretary in a note dated 17 September, which contains an illuminating statement: \"If payments of the Structural Fund grant increases or decreases from one year to the next, the resources available for other purposes change correspondingly\". In simple terms, if the amount of money that Scotland gets from Europe goes up, the same amount is clawed back from the Treasury block grant. The Government's position is laid Blair— that is quite a good word to have used. Laughter. The Government's position is laid bare, and the conclusion is unavoidable. The case is proved that the Government is not treating structural spending as additional to normal public expenditure commitments.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will turn to the special package. I well recall the fanfare when it was announced. It had always been the European Commission's intention to support areas losing objective 1 status by a period of transition funding, as the minister knows. If the deal was special, why was the House of Commons library able to confirm in a letter to Alex Salmond on 23 March that the regions that were losing their current status would be eligible for transitional assistance? There was no special win. After that letter, I did a bit more digging and I am now clear that the level of spin and deceit being practised over the so-called special deal is staggering.

For evidence we need to look no further than the European Commission's own analysis of the reform of structural funds in 1999, which gives the European Commission's view of the Berlin council and an accurate picture of the Berlin decisions without the spin attached. Under the heading \"Transitional support\" it says:

\"The regulation establishes a transitional assistance mechanism for regions eligible under Objective 1 in 1999 but which will no longer be eligible in 2000.\"

The next paragraph is about special programmes:

\"In accordance with the decisions taken by the European Council in Berlin two special programmes will be financed within the framework of Objective 1\" and names

\"the PEACE programme, which supports the peace process in Northern Ireland\" and a special assistance programme for Sweden. No mention is made of any special programme for the Highlands and Islands. Those are the European Commission's own words—a fact. Winnie Ewing will return to that issue.

In general, we are supportive of the move towards a ward-based approach for the targeting of objective 2 funding, but we are deeply disappointed that there has been a reduction of around 20 per cent in that funding, compared with the previous programme. There is widespread worry that the boundaries may have been drawn too tightly and, as a result, some obvious candidates for inclusion may have been missed out. I hope that the minister notes that, with our reasonable amendment, we are being constructive in seeking to help the areas across Scotland that rightly feel hard done by.

Additionality is a concept that has always bothered the Labour party. Who could forget the difficulties that poor old Bob Gillespie got himself into during the Govan by-election, when the concept of additionality was raised with him? There is a paradox in the Government's position that requires to be exposed through deeper understanding and greater transparency.

Let us examine a couple of the European Commission's definitions of additionality and contrast them with the Executive's stated position. First, the Commission's description of the main operating principles of structural policies:

\"Action taken by the Union must be in addition to and never replace resources already deployed by national and local authorities for regional development and job creation\".

Secondly, and perhaps more authoritatively, a statement on 21 June from the council regulations laid down the general provisions for structural funds:

\"In order to achieve a genuine economic impact, the appropriations of the Funds may not replace public or other equivalent structural expenditure by the Member State.\"

Those statements are clear and unambiguous in comparison to the Executive's stated position. For examples of that, we need look no further than the First Minister. On 7 October in this chamber I asked him to confirm that

\"structural funds are non-additional to Scotland's overall bottom-line position.\"

He replied:

\"That is broadly correct. Budget provision is made for European structural funds within the Scottish assigned budget each year.\"—[Official Report, 7 October 1999; Vol 2, c 1174.]

In The Herald the following day, the First Minister's spokesman further explained the Government's position:

\"If money from Europe goes up then the money we get from the Treasury would go down because we can't go above what we are entitled to under the Barnett formula.\"

Those are clear explanations. The Minister for Finance confirmed the Executive's position at the European Committee meeting on 19 October:

\"As less money is spent from European structural funds, surpluses will be freed up to be used for other purposes.\"— [Official Report, European Committee, 19 October 1999; c 197.]

The fact that true additionality—or even added value—is not being achieved was further exposed by the Minister for Finance's private secretary in a note dated 17 September, which contains an illuminating statement:

\"If payments of the Structural Fund grant increases or decreases from one year to the next, the resources available for other purposes change correspondingly\".

In simple terms, if the amount of money that Scotland gets from Europe goes up, the same amount is clawed back from the Treasury block grant. The Government's position is laid Blair— that is quite a good word to have used. [Laughter.] The Government's position is laid bare, and the conclusion is unavoidable. The case is proved that the Government is not treating structural spending as additional to normal public expenditure

commitments.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C709981", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 51.0, "ContributionID": 709981, "EditedText": "I am grateful for the consummate politeness of Mr Davidson. He hits the nail on the head when he talks about additionality being at UK level. The point is that Scotland's allocation is much in excess of our population share but, as the quotes that we have used show, we get only our population share. Therefore, we lose out considerably because additionality applies only at a state level and we are not a state.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful for the consummate politeness of Mr Davidson. He hits the nail on the head when he talks about additionality being at UK level. The point is that Scotland's allocation is much in excess of our population share but, as the quotes that we have used show, we get only our population share. Therefore, we lose out considerably because additionality applies only at a state level and we are not a state.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C709982", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Davidson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 53.0, "ContributionID": 709982, "EditedText": "I will perhaps return to answer that question later in my speech because I have some comments to make about that issue.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will perhaps return to answer that question later in my speech because I have some comments to make about that issue.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709998", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 85.0, "ContributionID": 709998, "EditedText": "Interventions must be brief, and Mr Davidson is now coming into injury time.", "EditedTextHTML": "Interventions must be brief, and Mr Davidson is now coming into injury time.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C709988", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Davidson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 65.0, "ContributionID": 709988, "EditedText": "I am grateful that Mr Rumbles is concerned about my health, sleeping patterns and forgetfulness. If he wants to take that argument further, I suggest that he lodges a motion so that we can debate it properly, rather than have Liberal Democrat members, who do not seem to offer anything positive in this Parliament, indulging in constant back-stabbing.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful that Mr Rumbles is concerned about my health, sleeping patterns and forgetfulness. If he wants to take that argument further, I suggest that he lodges a motion so that we can debate it properly, rather than have Liberal Democrat members, who do not seem to offer anything positive in this Parliament, indulging in constant back-stabbing.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C709990", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Davidson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 69.0, "ContributionID": 709990, "EditedText": "I heard that, Mr Raffan.That is not to say that the Commission might not do much better and become more productive and cost-effective. If we could achieve that through our MEPs, we would have even more funds for disbursal in this country. It is the Executive's duty to be a strong advocate for Scotland in any UK discussions prior to bids being made to Europe. This Parliament has a strategic role in focusing on, and arguing for, the needs of Scottish regions. I am delighted that, under the new objective 2, the rural areas and fisheries-dependent areas of Scotland have been recognised as needing support at a difficult time. The rural economy is under great pressure, not least from the fuel taxation policies of the Labour Government and its apparent lack of enthusiasm for tackling rural economy issues. The rural economy requires a more constructive and sensitive approach than we have experienced thus far. The new support measures for those areas, many of which are currently without such support, will be even more meaningful when the implications of the implementation of the European waste water directive put our fish processors, the food industry and our agricultural markets under even greater pressure. Scotland is also on the brink, and we have the evidence in Parliament, of an accelerating industrial decline, especially in the traditional manufacturing sectors that employ older technology. We must apply more focused development funding in those sectors. If there is an opportunity for refocusing within the current process, through the teams that the minister has mentioned, that should be one of the prime areas for their operation. The Borders, Clackmannanshire and Glasgow have been recognised. I will not list the communities, but again emphasise that unless there is matched funding, those areas will not receive the full potential of the offered support. I remind the Parliament that the Conservatives managed to obtain a 20 per cent share of the UK structural fund allocation for Scotland between 1979 and 1998, hardly based on a population split, as SNP colleagues might suggest. Judged in terms of the European population, that is a creditable benefit to Scotland and a clear challenge for the Executive to take up, as the 1999 outturn figures indicate a drop to 15.2 per cent. Objective 1 funding will use up a major part of the total funding for the objectives. My party appreciates and welcomes the transitional extension of this support. In Inverness last week, at the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee, we heard from some of the agencies up there that the £300 million European relief for the Highlands and Islands spread over the next few years will give local agencies the opportunity to develop new funding streams. That is a positive and welcome approach from those agencies. Other areas in a similar position should consider how best they can refocus to cope with a new, more streamlined future. We should consider the reduction as recognition that, over the past 20 years, Scotland has improved in comparison with the EU, thus affording an opportunity to reconsider our strategy for the future. Unlike the SNP, we believe that Scotland should not be run as an old-style collective, dependent on public funding and subsidy. It is not good enough for the separatists to moan and groan about bad deals and blame Westminster for everything. It would be refreshing to hear just what the SNP would do if it dragged Scotland out of the UK, which has muscle in Europe, into a new existence as a peripheral, offshore new entrant to the EU at the back of a lengthening queue of applicants. Independence in Europe, which was bandied about during the elections, is a joke. In the SNP's terms, we are either independent or we are in Europe.", "EditedTextHTML": "I heard that, Mr Raffan.

That is not to say that the Commission might not do much better and become more productive and cost-effective. If we could achieve that through our MEPs, we would have even more funds for disbursal in this country.

It is the Executive's duty to be a strong advocate for Scotland in any UK discussions prior to bids being made to Europe. This Parliament has a strategic role in focusing on, and arguing for, the needs of Scottish regions. I am delighted that, under the new objective 2, the rural areas and fisheries-dependent areas of Scotland have been recognised as needing support at a difficult time. The rural economy is under great pressure, not least from the fuel taxation policies of the Labour Government and its apparent lack of enthusiasm for tackling rural economy issues. The rural economy requires a more constructive and sensitive approach than we have experienced thus far.

The new support measures for those areas, many of which are currently without such support, will be even more meaningful when the implications of the implementation of the European waste water directive put our fish processors, the food industry and our agricultural markets under even greater pressure. Scotland is also on the brink, and we have the evidence in Parliament, of an accelerating industrial decline, especially in the traditional manufacturing sectors that employ older technology. We must apply more focused development funding in those sectors. If there is an opportunity for refocusing within the current process, through the teams that the minister has mentioned, that should be one of the prime areas for their operation.

The Borders, Clackmannanshire and Glasgow have been recognised. I will not list the communities, but again emphasise that unless there is matched funding, those areas will not receive the full potential of the offered support. I remind the Parliament that the Conservatives managed to obtain a 20 per cent share of the UK structural fund allocation for Scotland between 1979 and 1998, hardly based on a population split, as SNP colleagues might suggest. Judged in terms of the European population, that is a creditable benefit to Scotland and a clear challenge for the Executive to take up, as the 1999 outturn figures indicate a drop to 15.2 per cent. Objective 1 funding will use up a major part of the total funding for the objectives. My party appreciates and welcomes the transitional extension of this support.

In Inverness last week, at the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee, we heard from some of the agencies up there that the £300 million European relief for the Highlands and Islands spread over the next few years will give local agencies the opportunity to develop new funding streams. That is a positive and welcome approach from those agencies. Other areas in a similar position should consider how best they can refocus to cope with a new, more streamlined future. We should consider the reduction as recognition that, over the past 20 years, Scotland has improved in comparison with the EU, thus affording an opportunity to reconsider our strategy for the future.

Unlike the SNP, we believe that Scotland should not be run as an old-style collective, dependent on public funding and subsidy. It is not good enough for the separatists to moan and groan about bad deals and blame Westminster for everything. It would be refreshing to hear just what the SNP would do if it dragged Scotland out of the UK, which has muscle in Europe, into a new existence as a peripheral, offshore new entrant to the EU at the back of a lengthening queue of applicants. Independence in Europe, which was bandied about during the elections, is a joke. In the SNP's terms, we are either independent or we are in Europe.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C709991", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 71.0, "ContributionID": 709991, "EditedText": "The Conservatives are neither.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Conservatives are neither.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C709994", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Davidson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 77.0, "ContributionID": 709994, "EditedText": "The UK has the collective clout to argue a strong case in Europe—MEMBERS: \"Give way.\" I am sorry, I did not see Bruce asking to intervene.", "EditedTextHTML": "The UK has the collective clout to argue a strong case in Europe—[MEMBERS: \"Give way.\"] I am sorry, I did not see Bruce asking to intervene.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C710007", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 103.0, "ContributionID": 710007, "EditedText": "If he made some sense, it would be worth it.", "EditedTextHTML": "If he made some sense, it would be worth it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2223E203P342C710010", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scott, Tavish", "ID": 2223, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Shetland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tavish Scott", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tavish Scott (Shetland) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 110.0, "ContributionID": 710010, "EditedText": "I thought that Mr Davidson illustrated rather well the difficulties that the Conservatives have on Europe, although his speech was rather long. In his opening remarks, Mr Crawford introduced an important context—that of the wider and enlarging Europe. We need to take that into account, particularly with regard to what may happen a number of years down the line. However, this is a devolutionary settlement, not an independence settlement. We need to be positive about what we can achieve with European funds in that context, rather than in a context that does not and will not exist. Mr Crawford did not speak much to his amendment and, in particular, to the point about unsatisfactory consultation. I have done some research and tried to consult organisations, particularly in the Highlands and Islands, which have concerns of which I want to be aware. The consultation has been very full: it has involved partners and the plan team, which includes local enterprise companies and local authorities. In general, I do not recognise the problem that is described in this amendment. Clearly, different sectors want more. That will always be the case. However, Bruce Crawford was present at the meeting of the European Committee last week at which the minister asked the committee to identify areas where it wanted there to be more investment; in other words, to make a pitch for increased funding where the committee considered that important. David Mundell raised agricultural diversification, Winnie Ewing raised fisheries and Allan Wilson made the case for more transport infrastructure. In other words, members had an opportunity to put their case.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thought that Mr Davidson illustrated rather well the difficulties that the Conservatives have on Europe, although his speech was rather long.

In his opening remarks, Mr Crawford introduced an important context—that of the wider and enlarging Europe. We need to take that into account, particularly with regard to what may happen a number of years down the line. However, this is a devolutionary settlement, not an independence settlement. We need to be positive about what we can achieve with European funds in that context, rather than in a context that does not and will not exist.

Mr Crawford did not speak much to his amendment and, in particular, to the point about unsatisfactory consultation. I have done some research and tried to consult organisations, particularly in the Highlands and Islands, which have concerns of which I want to be aware. The consultation has been very full: it has involved partners and the plan team, which includes local enterprise companies and local authorities. In general, I do not recognise the problem that is described in this amendment.

Clearly, different sectors want more. That will always be the case. However, Bruce Crawford was present at the meeting of the European

Committee last week at which the minister asked the committee to identify areas where it wanted there to be more investment; in other words, to make a pitch for increased funding where the committee considered that important. David Mundell raised agricultural diversification, Winnie Ewing raised fisheries and Allan Wilson made the case for more transport infrastructure. In other words, members had an opportunity to put their case.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C710011", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bruce Crawford: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 112.0, "ContributionID": 710011, "EditedText": "Tavish will be aware that questions were put to the minister by the European Committee about discrepancies in the consultation process in the Highlands and Islands. Concern was also raised about the consultation that had taken place with the committee itself with regard to the Highlands and Islands document, and about the fact that the committee was receiving documents so late.", "EditedTextHTML": "Tavish will be aware that questions were put to the minister by the European Committee about discrepancies in the consultation process in the Highlands and Islands. Concern was also raised about the consultation that had taken place with the committee itself with regard to the Highlands and Islands document, and about the fact that the committee was receiving documents so late.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1878E208P502C710014", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Dr Winnie", "ID": 1878, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Winnie Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Winnie Ewing (Highlands and Islands) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 120.0, "ContributionID": 710014, "EditedText": "Presiding Officer, fellow members of this distinguished Parliament, I was disappointed not to be invited to the opening of Scotland House in Brussels, although, when he met me in the street, Mr McConnell apologised for having overlooked me. It is strange that I was overlooked, as I am the only member of the Scottish Parliament to have been a member of the European Parliament and I was one for 24 years. I admired the speech that Donald Dewar made at the opening. He said that Scotland must fight its corner as a country with a stake in Europe's future. Scotland House is a positive mechanism with which to draw the attention of the European Union to the nature of this ancient part of Europe. However, the SNP sees Scotland House more as a pocket battleship than as a flagship. It is a part of a good procedure. Calum Macdonald and Henry McLeish went to Europe and got all sorts of information from many regions. I co-operated fully with that process. Some would argue that Scotland benefits from having the UK to act as our big brother in negotiations in Europe, but I do not agree. We are one of the only states that turns down European money. We did not apply for poverty money or post-chunnel money. The European Commission explained that to me in the Parliament. We are in the most incredible situation of hailing as a great victory the loss of objective 1 status for the Highlands and Islands when it is quite clearly a terrible defeat.", "EditedTextHTML": "Presiding Officer, fellow members of this distinguished Parliament, I was disappointed not to be invited to the opening of Scotland House in Brussels, although, when he met me in the street, Mr McConnell apologised for having overlooked me. It is strange that I was overlooked, as I am the only member of the Scottish Parliament to have been a member of the European Parliament and I was one for 24 years.

I admired the speech that Donald Dewar made at the opening. He said that Scotland must fight its corner as a country with a stake in Europe's future. Scotland House is a positive mechanism with which to draw the attention of the European Union to the nature of this ancient part of Europe. However, the SNP sees Scotland House more as a pocket battleship than as a flagship. It is a part of a good procedure. Calum Macdonald and Henry McLeish went to Europe and got all sorts of information from many regions. I co-operated fully with that process.

Some would argue that Scotland benefits from having the UK to act as our big brother in negotiations in Europe, but I do not agree. We are one of the only states that turns down European money. We did not apply for poverty money or post-chunnel money. The European Commission explained that to me in the Parliament. We are in the most incredible situation of hailing as a great victory the loss of objective 1 status for the Highlands and Islands when it is quite clearly a terrible defeat.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C710018", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 129.0, "ContributionID": 710018, "EditedText": "I ask members to keep their eye on the clock to ensure that their speeches last four minutes.", "EditedTextHTML": "I ask members to keep their eye on the clock to ensure that their speeches last four minutes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1821E295P538C710028", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Mrs Margaret", "ID": 1821, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Moray" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Margaret Ewing (Moray) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 155.0, "ContributionID": 710028, "EditedText": "Obviously, Nora Radcliffe and I share a combined interest in Keith and Strathisla. It is no longer in my constituency, but lies within the Moray Council area. Considering the criteria, does she agree that, with its traditional industries of textiles and agriculture, the Keith and Strathisla area suffers a clear disadvantage? We have also lost the adjacency argument, because of the loss of objective 1 in the Highlands and Islands.", "EditedTextHTML": "Obviously, Nora Radcliffe and I share a combined interest in Keith and Strathisla. It is no longer in my constituency, but lies within the Moray Council area. Considering the criteria, does she agree that, with its traditional industries of textiles and agriculture, the Keith and Strathisla area suffers a clear disadvantage? We have also lost the adjacency argument, because of the loss of objective 1 in the Highlands and Islands.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1916E38P70C710030", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Ben", "ID": 1916, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ben Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ben Wallace (North-East Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 160.0, "ContributionID": 710030, "EditedText": "Whether some people like to admit it or not, Scotland has become a more prosperous and better-off place in the past 20 years. I would add that 18 of those were under the previous Tory Government. That had to be said, because most people forget it. It would be wrong to expect that Scotland should receive more European funding as the European Community expands eastwards into Poland. The European Committee was part of the Executive's consultation. The minister was keen to help out and attended on two occasions to answer our questions. He also gave me a number of lengthy written replies to some of my concerns about the region that I represent. However, I point out that, in this European debate, the Department of Trade and Industry at Westminster will be presenting Britain's case in Europe. It would therefore have been nice if John Reid had either come before the committee to listen to our concerns or made a submission to explain his position. The Cabinet committee that worked on the DTI proposals does not, I am afraid, have Jack McConnell as a member, but it does involve John Reid. That is important, and in future, John Reid—while he is looking for something to do in Westminster—should take it into consideration. To the Scottish National party I would like to say that we shall be negotiating in Europe as part of Britain and as part of the United Kingdom—as part of a larger, more powerful country that can make a better case. We will not be some federal region that is stuck on the end of Europe.", "EditedTextHTML": "Whether some people like to admit it or not, Scotland has become a more prosperous and better-off place in the past 20 years. I would add that 18 of those were under the previous Tory Government. That had to be said, because most people forget it.

It would be wrong to expect that Scotland should receive more European funding as the European Community expands eastwards into Poland. The European Committee was part of the Executive's consultation. The minister was keen to help out and attended on two occasions to answer our questions. He also gave me a number of lengthy written replies to some of my concerns about the region that I represent.

However, I point out that, in this European debate, the Department of Trade and Industry at Westminster will be presenting Britain's case in Europe. It would therefore have been nice if John Reid had either come before the committee to listen to our concerns or made a submission to explain his position. The Cabinet committee that worked on the DTI proposals does not, I am afraid, have Jack McConnell as a member, but it does involve John Reid. That is important, and in future, John Reid—while he is looking for something to do in Westminster—should take it into consideration.

To the Scottish National party I would like to say that we shall be negotiating in Europe as part of Britain and as part of the United Kingdom—as part of a larger, more powerful country that can make a better case. We will not be some federal region that is stuck on the end of Europe.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1916E38P70C710037", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Ben", "ID": 1916, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ben Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ben Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 174.0, "ContributionID": 710037, "EditedText": "No—I have just given way.I have a number of concerns about the plans for objective 2 funding, and, indeed, for objective 3 funding. The changes to some of the travel-to-work criteria mean, I am afraid, that some strategic sites might be left out because of a lack of recognition of industrial networks. In Dundee, for example, the technology park and some of Ninewells have been left out. They could have benefited from more start-up and more enterprise funding. The minister's insistence to the committee that he would prefer the objective 2 map to mirror the assisted areas map that was submitted earlier in the year meant that some areas—for example, in the north-east—were missed out. I would have liked more of a skew from the assisted areas to the objective maps, to cover some of those shortfalls. The plan's Highlands and Islands provision does not give enough weight to both agriculture and the economy that depends on that sector, and more funding should have been provided. On the subject of fairness, I am not sure whether we will ever know the exact details of the setting of each ward's criteria. I recognise that, although some of the circumstances in Falkirk, the Borders and the north-east are exactly the same as those of some wards that have received objective 2 funding, those areas have been left out. I urge the minister to release the details of those criteria once he has completed his negotiations, so that we can see whether the system was fair and just. Finally, I ask the minister to be imaginative when he hands out the money from Europe and not to stick to traditional methods. Members of the European Committee have raised concerns about the use of venture capital and how we can stimulate future long-term business when European funding runs out. I welcome today's debate and acknowledge that there was consultation, although perhaps not enough in some areas. I am also concerned about fairness. However, I hope that the European funding will allow us to build more sustainable industry, better business and a better Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "No—I have just given way.

I have a number of concerns about the plans for objective 2 funding, and, indeed, for objective 3 funding. The changes to some of the travel-to-work criteria mean, I am afraid, that some strategic sites might be left out because of a lack of recognition of industrial networks. In Dundee, for example, the technology park and some of Ninewells have been left out. They could have benefited from more start-up and more enterprise funding.

The minister's insistence to the committee that he would prefer the objective 2 map to mirror the assisted areas map that was submitted earlier in the year meant that some areas—for example, in

the north-east—were missed out. I would have liked more of a skew from the assisted areas to the objective maps, to cover some of those shortfalls.

The plan's Highlands and Islands provision does not give enough weight to both agriculture and the economy that depends on that sector, and more funding should have been provided.

On the subject of fairness, I am not sure whether we will ever know the exact details of the setting of each ward's criteria. I recognise that, although some of the circumstances in Falkirk, the Borders and the north-east are exactly the same as those of some wards that have received objective 2 funding, those areas have been left out. I urge the minister to release the details of those criteria once he has completed his negotiations, so that we can see whether the system was fair and just.

Finally, I ask the minister to be imaginative when he hands out the money from Europe and not to stick to traditional methods. Members of the European Committee have raised concerns about the use of venture capital and how we can stimulate future long-term business when European funding runs out. I welcome today's debate and acknowledge that there was consultation, although perhaps not enough in some areas. I am also concerned about fairness. However, I hope that the European funding will allow us to build more sustainable industry, better business and a better Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C710041", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 183.0, "ContributionID": 710041, "EditedText": "It would be helpful if members kept their eye on the countdown clock. I call Brian Adam.", "EditedTextHTML": "It would be helpful if members kept their eye on the countdown clock. I call Brian Adam.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C710043", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 188.0, "ContributionID": 710043, "EditedText": "Briefly.", "EditedTextHTML": "Briefly.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1926E190P479C710044", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Adam, Brian", "ID": 1926, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Adam", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Brian Adam: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 190.0, "ContributionID": 710044, "EditedText": "Of course, the other family funded the Conservative party. However, both families' support for Keith and Strathisla is somewhat absent now. Keith has a particularly strong case for funding because its textile, agriculture and whisky industries have been hit hard. That should allow further consideration of both wards in any review. One of the problems with European funding is that it is set for a fairly long time and there is no flexibility to deal with changes that are beyond the European Union's control. The EU might need to consider a structure that allows minor adjustments to be made. I do not think that any special pleading by MSPs today will have a major impact on the programme produced by the minister on behalf of the Executive. I hope that adjustments can be made for those areas, and particularly for Dundee and for Keith and Strathisla.", "EditedTextHTML": "Of course, the other family funded the Conservative party. However, both families' support for Keith and Strathisla is somewhat absent now. Keith has a particularly strong case for funding because its textile, agriculture and whisky industries have been hit hard. That should allow further consideration of both wards in any review.

One of the problems with European funding is that it is set for a fairly long time and there is no flexibility to deal with changes that are beyond the European Union's control. The EU might need to consider a structure that allows minor adjustments to be made. I do not think that any special pleading by MSPs today will have a major impact on the programme produced by the minister on behalf of the Executive. I hope that adjustments can be made for those areas, and particularly for Dundee and for Keith and Strathisla.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C710047", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bruce Crawford rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 197.0, "ContributionID": 710047, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1752E75P296C710048", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jamieson, Cathy", "ID": 1752, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Cathy Jamieson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Cathy Jamieson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 199.0, "ContributionID": 710048, "EditedText": "I will not give way, as I do not have time. I want an assurance that the Girvan area and other areas like it that have missed out on objective 2 funding because of a technicality relating to drawing of maps and adjacent wards will be top of the list of priorities. The people in those areas deserve that. This is about taking things forward positively and I want the projects that I can encourage into that area to address high unemployment and to ensure that people have the equality of opportunity that the Executive wants to work towards. If the minister can give me that assurance, I will leave here happier than when I arrived this morning.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will not give way, as I do not have time.

I want an assurance that the Girvan area and other areas like it that have missed out on objective 2 funding because of a technicality relating to drawing of maps and adjacent wards will be top of the list of priorities. The people in those areas deserve that. This is about taking things forward positively and I want the projects that I can encourage into that area to address high unemployment and to ensure that people have the equality of opportunity that the Executive wants to work towards.

If the minister can give me that assurance, I will leave here happier than when I arrived this morning.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2140E187P335C710052", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Rumbles, Mike", "ID": 2140, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Rumbles", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Mike Rumbles (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 210.0, "ContributionID": 710052, "EditedText": "Nora Radcliffe, MSP for Gordon, the neighbouring constituency to mine, argued the case powerfully that aid to rural Aberdeenshire should be continued. Brian Adam, a regional member for North-East Scotland, also made a powerful argument. People may have noticed that, during the debate, one or two MSPs have argued the case for their own areas—they are absolutely right to do that. I am not going to talk about special pleading, because this is not special pleading. I want to draw attention to the fact that people in West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine and in other parts of rural Aberdeenshire feel that they have been missed out. I believe that a fundamental error has been made in relation to the structural fund aid map. Even at this late stage, it is not impossible for the minister to change the draft map. The Upper Deeside and Upper Donside areas in my constituency, which are currently eligible for objective 5b funding, have been excluded from the map for objective 2 funding. I know that transitional funding is available, but the point about that is that it is transitional. I am concerned that my constituency and the neighbouring constituency of Gordon are universally perceived as affluent because of their proximity to oil-rich Aberdeen, which has resulted in the exclusion of the area from the aid map. That perception is completely misleading because, in many parts of the area, the principal driver of the local economy is not oil but farming. The farming crisis has increased rural unemployment, which in turn leads to population drift and undermines rural communities. Those are the sort of conditions that structural funds are supposed to tackle. United Kingdom ministers have defended the exclusion of areas such as rural Aberdeenshire by saying that those areas are not among the poorest in Europe. That may be true in a European context. In a Scottish context, however, there are areas of Upper Donside and Upper Deeside that not only meet the EU criteria for objective 2 funding—and we heard lots of relevant statistics from Nora Radcliffe—but are more sparsely populated, are more dependent on agriculture and have a lower income per head than some areas of the Highlands and the Borders that have been included in the draft funding map. In that context, the case for continuing financial support is unmistakable. The obvious temptation to draw neat lines on the map must be resisted. We need to take account of local factors. I hope that the minister will address that point. This is not an administrative exercise. We need to take account of real problems in rural areas, as has been said forcefully by several members today. I urge the minister to take account of our concerns. It is not too late to change the proposals.", "EditedTextHTML": "Nora Radcliffe, MSP for Gordon, the neighbouring constituency to mine, argued the case powerfully that aid to rural Aberdeenshire should be continued. Brian Adam, a regional member for North-East Scotland, also made a powerful argument. People may have noticed that, during the debate, one or two MSPs have argued the case for their own areas—they are absolutely right to do that.

I am not going to talk about special pleading, because this is not special pleading. I want to draw attention to the fact that people in West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine and in other parts of rural Aberdeenshire feel that they have been missed out. I believe that a fundamental error has

been made in relation to the structural fund aid map. Even at this late stage, it is not impossible for the minister to change the draft map.

The Upper Deeside and Upper Donside areas in my constituency, which are currently eligible for objective 5b funding, have been excluded from the map for objective 2 funding. I know that transitional funding is available, but the point about that is that it is transitional. I am concerned that my constituency and the neighbouring constituency of Gordon are universally perceived as affluent because of their proximity to oil-rich Aberdeen, which has resulted in the exclusion of the area from the aid map. That perception is completely misleading because, in many parts of the area, the principal driver of the local economy is not oil but farming. The farming crisis has increased rural unemployment, which in turn leads to population drift and undermines rural communities. Those are the sort of conditions that structural funds are supposed to tackle.

United Kingdom ministers have defended the exclusion of areas such as rural Aberdeenshire by saying that those areas are not among the poorest in Europe. That may be true in a European context. In a Scottish context, however, there are areas of Upper Donside and Upper Deeside that not only meet the EU criteria for objective 2 funding—and we heard lots of relevant statistics from Nora Radcliffe—but are more sparsely populated, are more dependent on agriculture and have a lower income per head than some areas of the Highlands and the Borders that have been included in the draft funding map.

In that context, the case for continuing financial support is unmistakable. The obvious temptation to draw neat lines on the map must be resisted. We need to take account of local factors.

I hope that the minister will address that point. This is not an administrative exercise. We need to take account of real problems in rural areas, as has been said forcefully by several members today. I urge the minister to take account of our concerns. It is not too late to change the proposals.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C710065", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 238.0, "ContributionID": 710065, "EditedText": "Believe me, Ben, I would have done. Likewise, the Liberal Democrats would appear toagree with the amendment—I know that from an offhand remark that one of them made a moment ago. They would love to support it, but cannot. Members cannot make their words in the chamber stick if they are not going to follow through when it comes to the vote. I call on them to do their constituents a service by voting for a reasonably worded amendment.", "EditedTextHTML": "Believe me, Ben, I would have done.

Likewise, the Liberal Democrats would appear to

agree with the amendment—I know that from an offhand remark that one of them made a moment ago. They would love to support it, but cannot. Members cannot make their words in the chamber stick if they are not going to follow through when it comes to the vote. I call on them to do their constituents a service by voting for a reasonably worded amendment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C710064", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 236.0, "ContributionID": 710064, "EditedText": "No, there is no time.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, there is no time.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710073", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 255.0, "ContributionID": 710073, "EditedText": "That concludes this morning's debate. The decisions on the amendment and on the motion will, as usual, be taken at 5 o'clock.", "EditedTextHTML": "That concludes this morning's debate. The decisions on the amendment and on the motion will, as usual, be taken at 5 o'clock.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2140E187P335C710080", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fisheries Council", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26953, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 257.0, "ID": 26953, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Rumbles, Mike", "ID": 2140, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Rumbles", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Mike Rumbles (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 271.0, "ContributionID": 710080, "EditedText": "While I understand fully the reasons why the Executive will not make a statement to the chamber after attendance at future meetings, I hope that ministers will make statements to the relevant parliamentary committees on their return. In the statement, the minister recognised, correctly, the importance to Scotland of the herring industry. Will he ensure, when he attends the Fisheries Council meetings on 22 November and 16 December, that he presses home the point that herring must be removed from the proposals for tariff suspension?", "EditedTextHTML": "While I understand fully the reasons why the Executive will not make a statement to the chamber after attendance at future meetings, I hope that ministers will make statements to the relevant parliamentary committees on their return.

In the statement, the minister recognised, correctly, the importance to Scotland of the herring industry. Will he ensure, when he attends the Fisheries Council meetings on 22 November and 16 December, that he presses home the point that herring must be removed from the proposals for tariff suspension?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2100E64P254C710081", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fisheries Council", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26953, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 257.0, "ID": 26953, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Home Robertson, John", "ID": 2100, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Lothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "John Home Robertson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Home Robertson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 273.0, "ContributionID": 710081, "EditedText": "I accept Mr Rumbles's point about making a statement to the committee as an alternative. The making of such statements is a matter that will evolve. As I said to Mr Lochhead, I am advised by colleagues who have long experience of attending council meetings that some such meetings go on for a long time and achieve very little indeed. Not a lot is to be gained from inflicting long, boring statements on the Parliament on every occasion.", "EditedTextHTML": "I accept Mr Rumbles's point about making a statement to the committee as an alternative. The making of such statements is a matter that will evolve. As I said to Mr Lochhead, I am advised by colleagues who have long experience of attending council meetings that some such meetings go on for a long time and achieve very little indeed. Not a lot is to be gained from inflicting long, boring statements on the Parliament on every occasion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2100E64P254C710083", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fisheries Council", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26953, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 257.0, "ID": 26953, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Home Robertson, John", "ID": 2100, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Lothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "John Home Robertson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Home Robertson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 277.0, "ContributionID": 710083, "EditedText": "Our friend from North Tayside will understand the full horror of such things, I am sure. We could certainly inflict it on the committee instead.Mr Rumbles's point about herring is well made. I made that point to the council and I think the Danish delegate said that he wanted the full suspension, so that the Danish processing industry could access herring from outside the European Union. I made the point directly to him that plenty of herring is available from Scottish catches. We have made that point to the Commission, and I am sure that the Commission officials will take account of what we said. Some negotiating still has to take place on that, but we have made our position abundantly clear.", "EditedTextHTML": "Our friend from North Tayside will understand the full horror of such things, I am sure. We could certainly inflict it on

the committee instead.

Mr Rumbles's point about herring is well made. I made that point to the council and I think the Danish delegate said that he wanted the full suspension, so that the Danish processing industry could access herring from outside the European Union. I made the point directly to him that plenty of herring is available from Scottish catches. We have made that point to the Commission, and I am sure that the Commission officials will take account of what we said. Some negotiating still has to take place on that, but we have made our position abundantly clear.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2100E64P254C710087", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fisheries Council", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26953, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 257.0, "ID": 26953, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Home Robertson, John", "ID": 2100, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Lothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "John Home Robertson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Home Robertson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 285.0, "ContributionID": 710087, "EditedText": "Those are helpful points. I appreciate the obvious interest in the fishing industry in Mr Scott's Shetland constituency. He may live to regret his undertaking to consider every detail that comes out of every council working party, but we will try to test him on that one in due course. Mr Scott's point about the requirement to make any investment in new build in the fleet conditional on reducing capacity is very important. There is concern that the Mediterranean countries in particular might take advantage of that provision to put public money into the replacement of older boats with much more modern boats that might be superficially the same size but have substantially increased catching capacity. That is why we support the Commission line on that. On the multi-annual guidance programme, Mr Scott is right. We will have to keep a particularly close eye on those countries that have not achieved the requirements to reduce their capacity in those segments. We do not want what is described as capacity creep, particularly of the publicly funded nature. Laughter. I thought you would like that, Mr Swinney. Of course, I will not mention the other creeps in this chamber. Consultation is certainly very important. We made it clear to representatives of the Scottish Fishermen's Federation that we want to see as much of them as possible. Indeed, I am looking forward to dining with them this evening. The Commission is setting up a new Community-wide advisory committee on fisheries. That is a matter for the Commission, but we are going one step further and seeking a regional approach to discussions on fisheries, for example, in the North sea area.", "EditedTextHTML": "Those are helpful points. I appreciate the obvious interest in the fishing industry in Mr Scott's Shetland constituency. He may live to regret his undertaking to consider every detail that comes out of every council working party, but we will try to test him on that one in due course.

Mr Scott's point about the requirement to make any investment in new build in the fleet conditional on reducing capacity is very important. There is concern that the Mediterranean countries in particular might take advantage of that provision to put public money into the replacement of older boats with much more modern boats that might be superficially the same size but have substantially increased catching capacity. That is why we support the Commission line on that.

On the multi-annual guidance programme, Mr Scott is right. We will have to keep a particularly close eye on those countries that have not achieved the requirements to reduce their capacity in those segments. We do not want what is described as capacity creep, particularly of the publicly funded nature. [Laughter.] I thought you would like that, Mr Swinney. Of course, I will not mention the other creeps in this chamber.

Consultation is certainly very important. We made it clear to representatives of the Scottish Fishermen's Federation that we want to see as much of them as possible. Indeed, I am looking forward to dining with them this evening. The Commission is setting up a new Community-wide advisory committee on fisheries. That is a matter for the Commission, but we are going one step further and seeking a regional approach to discussions on fisheries, for example, in the North sea area.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2100E64P254C710092", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fisheries Council", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26953, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 257.0, "ID": 26953, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Home Robertson, John", "ID": 2100, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Lothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "John Home Robertson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Home Robertson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 295.0, "ContributionID": 710092, "EditedText": "It is not for me to suggest what committees of the Parliament should do. The Parliament and its committees are autonomous bodies and can, quite rightly, take their own decisions on how they approach such matters. We are the servants of the Parliament, and rightly so. Laughter. That might cause some alarm in some quarters—I do not know. What Mrs Ewing said is important. The forthcoming council meetings in November and December will deal with important decisions on structures, on marketing and, in due course, on total allowable catches, which are of enormous importance to our industry. On matters of substance, I certainly intend to report directly to the Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is not for me to suggest what committees of the Parliament should do. The Parliament and its committees are autonomous bodies and can, quite rightly, take their own decisions on how they approach such matters. We are the servants of the Parliament, and rightly so. [Laughter.] That might cause some alarm in some quarters—I do not know.

What Mrs Ewing said is important. The forthcoming council meetings in November and December will deal with important decisions on structures, on marketing and, in due course, on total allowable catches, which are of enormous importance to our industry. On matters of substance, I certainly intend to report directly to the Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2188E70P92C710095", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fisheries Council", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26953, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 257.0, "ID": 26953, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harper, Robin", "ID": 2188, "PartyName": "Scottish Green Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Green", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robin Harper", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robin Harper (Lothians) (Green): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 301.0, "ContributionID": 710095, "EditedText": "The minister will be aware that two thirds of the world's fish stocks are overfished. Many of Europe's stocks are also dangerously overfished. A quarter of the world's total catch is thrown overboard, because the fish are either too small or of the wrong species. Business as usual is no longer acceptable. While I welcome the 30 per cent rule for the larger boats, I would rather that there was no capitalisation for big boats and more capitalisation for smaller community fishing. That would address the concerns raised by Jamie McGrigor. With reference to the broader picture, will the minister, with UK ministers, call for the ratification of the United Nations fisheries agreement, which I believe the UK has already signed? In particular, will the minister address the following points?", "EditedTextHTML": "The minister will be aware that two thirds of the world's fish stocks are overfished. Many of Europe's stocks are also dangerously overfished. A quarter of the world's total catch is thrown overboard, because the fish are either too small or of the wrong species. Business as usual is no longer acceptable.

While I welcome the 30 per cent rule for the larger boats, I would rather that there was no capitalisation for big boats and more capitalisation for smaller community fishing. That would address the concerns raised by Jamie McGrigor.

With reference to the broader picture, will the minister, with UK ministers, call for the ratification of the United Nations fisheries agreement, which I believe the UK has already signed? In particular, will the minister address the following points?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6858246+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710098", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fisheries Council", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26953, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 257.0, "ID": 26953, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 307.0, "ContributionID": 710098, "EditedText": "Yes, but we cannot have a list of questions. You must be brief.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes, but we cannot have a list of questions. You must be brief.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6858246+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710103", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fisheries Council", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26953, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 257.0, "ID": 26953, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 317.0, "ContributionID": 710103, "EditedText": "Order. The member must ask a question on the statement.", "EditedTextHTML": "Order. The member must ask a question on the statement.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6858246+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C710104", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fisheries Council", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26953, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 257.0, "ID": 26953, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 319.0, "ContributionID": 710104, "EditedText": "The question, clearly, is how much damage has been done to Scottish fishing interests in Europe.", "EditedTextHTML": "The question, clearly, is how much damage has been done to Scottish fishing interests in Europe.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6858246+00:00" }, { "ID": "C710116", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26954, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 333.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 333.0, "ID": 26954, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 345.0, "ContributionID": 710116, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6858246+00:00" }, { "ID": "C710117", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26954, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 333.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 333.0, "ID": 26954, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 346.0, "ContributionID": 710117, "EditedText": "Question, That the meeting be now adjourned until 2.30 pm today, put and agreed to.—Mr McCabe.", "EditedTextHTML": "Question, That the meeting be now adjourned until 2.30 pm today, put and agreed to.—[Mr McCabe.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6858246+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1893E47P78C710120", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26954, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 333.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 333.0, "ID": 26954, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnstone, Alex", "ID": 1893, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Johnstone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Johnstone (North-East Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 350.0, "ContributionID": 710120, "EditedText": "On a point of order, Presiding Officer. Will you rule on what appears to be an attempt to manipulate the privilege of questioning the Executive? Five almost identical questions appear in today's questions, in what appears to be an attempt by one of the smaller parties in the chamber to score party political points.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order, Presiding Officer. Will you rule on what appears to be an attempt to manipulate the privilege of questioning the Executive? Five almost identical questions appear in today's questions, in what appears to be an attempt by one of the smaller parties in the chamber to score party political points.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6858246+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C710130", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26955, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 354.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26956, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 355.0, "QuestionHeading": "North Ayrshire Council", "QuestionHeadingID": 26959, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 374.0, "DisplayOrder": 374.0, "ID": 26959, "ParentID": 26956 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "3. Michael Russell (South of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 375.0, "ContributionID": 710130, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what representations it has received from North Ayrshire Council about the impending deficit in the council's direct labour organisation. (S1O-472)", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what representations it has received from North Ayrshire Council about the impending deficit in the council's direct labour organisation. (S1O-472)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6858246+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C710138", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26955, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 354.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26956, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 355.0, "QuestionHeading": "Scotland House", "QuestionHeadingID": 26960, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 389.0, "DisplayOrder": 389.0, "ID": 26960, "ParentID": 26956 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Finance (Mr Jack McConnell): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 392.0, "ContributionID": 710138, "EditedText": "Scotland House is a prominent and useful new Scottish facility in the heart of Brussels. The new Scottish Executive EU office and Scotland Europa are co-located in Scotland House. Scotland Europa, Scottish Trade International and Scotland the Brand are working together to make Scotland House a focal point for Scotland's export drive into the European Union and central and eastern European markets.", "EditedTextHTML": "Scotland House is a prominent and useful new Scottish facility in the heart of Brussels. The new Scottish Executive EU office and Scotland Europa are co-located in Scotland House. Scotland Europa, Scottish Trade International and Scotland the Brand are working together to make Scotland House a focal point for Scotland's export drive into the European Union and central and eastern European markets.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6858246+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1916E38P70C710139", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26955, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 354.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26956, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 355.0, "QuestionHeading": "Scotland House", "QuestionHeadingID": 26960, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 389.0, "DisplayOrder": 389.0, "ID": 26960, "ParentID": 26956 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Ben", "ID": 1916, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ben Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ben Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 394.0, "ContributionID": 710139, "EditedText": "Will the minister explain the logic behind the Executive's reasoning for joining on a stage the leader of the SNP, who would clearly like to use Europe and the euro as a way to break Scotland away from the United Kingdom?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister explain the logic behind the Executive's reasoning for joining on a stage the leader of the SNP, who would clearly like to use Europe and the euro as a way to break Scotland away from the United Kingdom?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6858246+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2029E47P167C710141", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26955, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 354.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26956, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 355.0, "QuestionHeading": "Out-of-town Retail Development", "QuestionHeadingID": 26961, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 398.0, "DisplayOrder": 398.0, "ID": 26961, "ParentID": 26956 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Henry, Hugh", "ID": 2029, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Hugh Henry", "SpeakerDisplayName": "5. Hugh Henry (Paisley South) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 399.0, "ContributionID": 710141, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive, given current planning presumptions against major out-of-town retail developments, whether any further major out-oftown retail developments will be permitted in, or in proximity to, the Renfrewshire Council area. (S1O454) The Minister for Transport and the Environment (Sarah Boyack): Each application must be treated on its merits. In assessing new proposals, planning authorities will take into account all relevant material considerations, including the policies set out in revised national planning policy guideline 8, on town centres and retailing, which was published last year.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive, given current planning presumptions against major out-of-town retail developments, whether any further major out-oftown retail developments will be permitted in, or in proximity to, the Renfrewshire Council area. (S1O454) The Minister for Transport and the Environment (Sarah Boyack): Each application must be treated on its merits. In assessing new proposals, planning authorities will take into account all relevant material considerations, including the policies set out in revised national planning policy guideline 8, on town centres and retailing, which was published last year.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6858246+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C710147", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26955, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 354.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26956, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 355.0, "QuestionHeading": "Poverty", "QuestionHeadingID": 26962, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 411.0, "DisplayOrder": 411.0, "ID": 26962, "ParentID": 26956 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "6. Alex Neil (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 412.0, "ContributionID": 710147, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it intends to use its own Scottish indicators to measure poverty in Scotland. (S1O-448) The Deputy Minister for Communities (Jackie Baillie): A wide range of information on poverty and social exclusion in Scotland is currently collected, some of which is on a specifically Scottish basis. Our targets for tackling poverty and on social inclusion in Scotland will be published soon.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it intends to use its own Scottish indicators to measure poverty in Scotland. (S1O-448) The Deputy Minister for Communities (Jackie Baillie): A wide range of information on poverty and social exclusion in Scotland is currently collected, some of which is on a specifically Scottish basis. Our targets for tackling poverty and on social inclusion in Scotland will be published soon.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6858246+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C710151", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26955, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 354.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26956, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 355.0, "QuestionHeading": "Health Care", "QuestionHeadingID": 26963, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 418.0, "DisplayOrder": 418.0, "ID": 26963, "ParentID": 26956 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 421.0, "ContributionID": 710151, "EditedText": "Cancer, coronary heart disease and stroke, and mental health have been clinical priorities for the national health service in Scotland for the past three years, and remain so. As is stated in the partnership agreement and in the programme for government, the Scottish Executive is committed to setting targets to speed treatment and to shorten waiting times. At present, we are taking forward work in that area, which builds on the significant reductions in waiting lists that have been achieved since 1997.", "EditedTextHTML": "Cancer, coronary heart disease and stroke, and mental health have been clinical priorities for the national health service in Scotland for the past three years, and remain so. As is stated in the partnership agreement and in the programme for government, the Scottish Executive is committed to setting targets to speed treatment and to shorten waiting times. At present, we are taking forward work in that area, which builds on the significant reductions in waiting lists that have been achieved since 1997.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6858246+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1962E35P56C710154", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26955, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 354.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26956, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 355.0, "QuestionHeading": "Residential Homes", "QuestionHeadingID": 26964, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 427.0, "DisplayOrder": 427.0, "ID": 26964, "ParentID": 26956 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mundell, David", "ID": 1962, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Mundell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "8. David Mundell (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 428.0, "ContributionID": 710154, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will reconsider its decision not to grant the application by the Federation of Small Businesses for the setting up of an inquiry under section 211 of the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1973 into the manner and consequences of the divestment or \"externalisation\" of 11 residential homes formerly run by Dumfries and Galloway Council. (S1O-480)", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will reconsider its decision not to grant the application by the Federation of Small Businesses for the setting up of an inquiry under section 211 of the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1973 into the manner and consequences of the divestment or \"externalisation\" of 11 residential homes formerly run by Dumfries and Galloway Council. (S1O-480)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6858246+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2033E106P139C710155", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26955, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 354.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26956, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 355.0, "QuestionHeading": "Residential Homes", "QuestionHeadingID": 26964, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 427.0, "DisplayOrder": 427.0, "ID": 26964, "ParentID": 26956 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gray, Iain", "ID": 2033, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Pentlands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Iain Gray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Community Care (Iain Gray): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 430.0, "ContributionID": 710155, "EditedText": "Our view remains that a section 211 inquiry is not appropriate. However, I am happy to meet Mr Mundell to discuss that further, as I indicated in my letter to him of 19 October.", "EditedTextHTML": "Our view remains that a section 211 inquiry is not appropriate. However, I am happy to meet Mr Mundell to discuss that further, as I indicated in my letter to him of 19 October.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6858246+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2033E106P139C710160", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26955, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 354.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26956, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 355.0, "QuestionHeading": "Local Government Finance", "QuestionHeadingID": 26965, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 436.0, "DisplayOrder": 436.0, "ID": 26965, "ParentID": 26956 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gray, Iain", "ID": 2033, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Pentlands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Iain Gray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Iain Gray: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 441.0, "ContributionID": 710160, "EditedText": "Responsibility for the allocation of budgets in East Lothian lies, quite properly, with East Lothian Council. The social work GAE has risen by 9 per cent, the council social work budget has risen by 7 per cent, the overall GAE for East Lothian Council has risen by 6.6 per cent and the council's expenditure guidelines for this year have been raised by 5.5 per cent. Those are increases, not cuts. I am concerned about delays older people and other client groups experience in receiving services in line with their assessed needs. I have asked the head of the community care division of the Scottish Executive to meet the council to discuss the matter. That should happen this week and a report should be made soon.", "EditedTextHTML": "Responsibility for the allocation of budgets in East Lothian lies, quite properly, with East Lothian Council. The social work GAE has risen by 9 per cent, the council social work budget has risen by 7 per cent, the overall GAE for East Lothian Council has risen by 6.6 per cent and the council's expenditure guidelines for this year have been raised by 5.5 per cent. Those are increases, not cuts.

I am concerned about delays older people and other client groups experience in receiving services in line with their assessed needs. I have asked the head of the community care division of the Scottish Executive to meet the council to discuss the matter. That should happen this week and a report should be made soon.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6858246+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1892E34P73C710161", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26955, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 354.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26956, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 355.0, "QuestionHeading": "Pig Industry", "QuestionHeadingID": 26966, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 443.0, "DisplayOrder": 443.0, "ID": 26966, "ParentID": 26956 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Fergusson, Alex", "ID": 1892, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Fergusson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "10. Alex Fergusson (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 444.0, "ContributionID": 710161, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what steps it is taking to support the UK Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food in his efforts to assist the UK pig industry by requesting financial aid from Europe to eliminate the cost burden caused by BSE. (S1O-482) The Minister for Rural Affairs (Ross Finnie): I am very conscious of the serious problems that face the pig industry, but Mr Fergusson will be aware that the European Union state aid rules are a major obstacle to our providing direct financial assistance, even in the case of on-costs associated with BSE. I should mention two matters that have been raised as a part of the consultations that have been going on with UK agriculture ministers. First, we have renewed our application to the European Union to have the state private storage aid for pigmeats and the export refunds reinstated. Secondly, a package of some £5 million of aid throughout the United Kingdom, to promote the marketing of pigmeat, which was formalised only this morning, is now being put in place. In Scotland, we will be able to use our proportionate share of that to give further substance to the Scottish pig industry initiative and the Scottish pig marketing quality mark.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what steps it is taking to support the UK Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food in his efforts to assist the UK pig industry by requesting financial aid from Europe to eliminate the cost burden caused by BSE. (S1O-482) The Minister for Rural Affairs (Ross Finnie): I am very conscious of the serious problems that face the pig industry, but Mr Fergusson will be aware that the European Union state aid rules are a major obstacle to our providing direct financial assistance, even in the case of on-costs associated with BSE.

I should mention two matters that have been raised as a part of the consultations that have been going on with UK agriculture ministers. First, we have renewed our application to the European Union to have the state private storage aid for pigmeats and the export refunds reinstated.

Secondly, a package of some £5 million of aid throughout the United Kingdom, to promote the marketing of pigmeat, which was formalised only this morning, is now being put in place. In Scotland, we will be able to use our proportionate

share of that to give further substance to the Scottish pig industry initiative and the Scottish pig marketing quality mark.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6858246+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1882E175P456C710164", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26955, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 354.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26956, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 355.0, "QuestionHeading": "Rural Development", "QuestionHeadingID": 26967, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 450.0, "DisplayOrder": 450.0, "ID": 26967, "ParentID": 26956 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ingram, Adam", "ID": 1882, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Adam Ingram", "SpeakerDisplayName": "11. Mr Adam Ingram (South of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 451.0, "ContributionID": 710164, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what measures are being taken to ensure that employment opportunities in rural areas do not suffer as a result of transport restrictions on rural economic development as laid out in the national planning policy guidelines. (S1O-467) The Minister for Transport and the Environment (Sarah Boyack): Our national planning policy guidelines do not impose traffic restrictions on rural economic development. They seek fully to exploit sustainable patterns of travel. Planning and road policy should be appropriate to the specific circumstances of rural areas.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what measures are being taken to ensure that employment opportunities in rural areas do not suffer as a result of transport restrictions on rural economic development as laid out in the national planning policy guidelines. (S1O-467) The Minister for Transport and the Environment (Sarah Boyack): Our national planning policy guidelines do not impose traffic restrictions on rural economic development. They seek fully to exploit sustainable patterns of travel. Planning and road policy should be appropriate to the specific circumstances of rural areas.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6858246+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2188E70P92C710169", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26955, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 354.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26956, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 355.0, "QuestionHeading": "Natura 2000 Directive", "QuestionHeadingID": 26968, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 461.0, "DisplayOrder": 461.0, "ID": 26968, "ParentID": 26956 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harper, Robin", "ID": 2188, "PartyName": "Scottish Green Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Green", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robin Harper", "SpeakerDisplayName": "12. Robin Harper (Lothians) (Green): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 462.0, "ContributionID": 710169, "EditedText": "Thank you for the reminder, Presiding Officer. My question is: To ask the Scottish Executive what steps it intends to take to meet the demands of the European Union Natura 2000 directive on habitat protection. (S1O-481) The Minister for Transport and the Environment (Sarah Boyack): The Scottish Executive is fully implementing the birds and habitats directive and contributing to the network of Natura 2000 sites across the European Union.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you for the reminder, Presiding Officer. My question is: To ask the Scottish Executive what steps it intends to take to meet the demands of the European Union Natura 2000 directive on habitat protection. (S1O-481) The Minister for Transport and the Environment (Sarah Boyack): The Scottish Executive is fully implementing the birds and habitats directive and contributing to the network of Natura 2000 sites across the European Union.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6858246+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710171", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26955, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 354.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26956, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 355.0, "QuestionHeading": "Natura 2000 Directive", "QuestionHeadingID": 26968, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 461.0, "DisplayOrder": 461.0, "ID": 26968, "ParentID": 26956 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 466.0, "ContributionID": 710171, "EditedText": "Mr Harper—", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Harper—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4201801+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2167E79P155C710177", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26955, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 354.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26956, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 355.0, "QuestionHeading": "Education Funding The Presiding Officer: Order.", "QuestionHeadingID": 26969, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 474.0, "DisplayOrder": 474.0, "ID": 26969, "ParentID": 26956 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Peacock, Peter", "ID": 2167, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Peter Peacock", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Peter Peacock: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 479.0, "ContributionID": 710177, "EditedText": "I can do no better. Interruption. I refer Mr Lyon to the answer that I gave to Mr Raffan some time earlier.", "EditedTextHTML": "I can do no better. [Interruption.] I refer Mr Lyon to the answer that I gave to Mr Raffan some time earlier.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C710178", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26955, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 354.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26956, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 355.0, "QuestionHeading": "Education Funding The Presiding Officer: Order.", "QuestionHeadingID": 26969, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 474.0, "DisplayOrder": 474.0, "ID": 26969, "ParentID": 26956 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 481.0, "ContributionID": 710178, "EditedText": "Will the minister repeat his answer, as I could not hear it?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister repeat his answer, as I could not hear it?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1850E185P354C710185", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26955, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 354.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26956, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 355.0, "QuestionHeading": "Education Funding The Presiding Officer: Order.", "QuestionHeadingID": 26969, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 474.0, "DisplayOrder": 474.0, "ID": 26969, "ParentID": 26956 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Radcliffe, Nora", "ID": 1850, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Gordon" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nora Radcliffe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nora Radcliffe: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 495.0, "ContributionID": 710185, "EditedText": "As three rural schools in Moray are under threat of closure, including Boharm in my constituency, does the minister agree that additional funding will be of great value to Moray Council, given the higher annual running cost per pupil for small schools in rural areas?", "EditedTextHTML": "As three rural schools in Moray are under threat of closure, including Boharm in my constituency, does the minister agree that additional funding will be of great value to Moray Council, given the higher annual running cost per pupil for small schools in rural areas?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1854E38P164C710187", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26955, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 354.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26956, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 355.0, "QuestionHeading": "Charity Shops", "QuestionHeadingID": 26970, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 499.0, "DisplayOrder": 499.0, "ID": 26970, "ParentID": 26956 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Godman, Trish", "ID": 1854, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Renfrewshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Trish Godman", "SpeakerDisplayName": "15. Trish Godman (West Renfrewshire) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 500.0, "ContributionID": 710187, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what recent representations it has received concerning the discretionary relief from business rates allowed to charity shops. (S1O-453)", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what recent representations it has received concerning the discretionary relief from business rates allowed to charity shops. (S1O-453)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1854E38P164C710189", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26955, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 354.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26956, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 355.0, "QuestionHeading": "Charity Shops", "QuestionHeadingID": 26970, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 499.0, "DisplayOrder": 499.0, "ID": 26970, "ParentID": 26956 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Godman, Trish", "ID": 1854, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Renfrewshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Trish Godman", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Trish Godman: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 504.0, "ContributionID": 710189, "EditedText": "Will the minister give us an assurance that there will be no change to the present arrangements, which provide an 80 per cent mandatory and 20 per cent discretionary relief from business rates for charity shops?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give us an assurance that there will be no change to the present arrangements, which provide an 80 per cent mandatory and 20 per cent discretionary relief from business rates for charity shops?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C710193", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26955, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 354.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26956, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 355.0, "QuestionHeading": "Objective 2 Funding", "QuestionHeadingID": 26971, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 508.0, "DisplayOrder": 508.0, "ID": 26971, "ParentID": 26956 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 513.0, "ContributionID": 710193, "EditedText": "The plans will not require to be approved by Christmas. As I said this morning in the debate, I will ensure, in considering the plans when they come forward from the plan teams, that the transition areas are properly prioritised and that the areas of greatest need benefit most from the transition money.", "EditedTextHTML": "The plans will not require to be approved by Christmas. As I said this morning in the debate, I will ensure, in considering the plans when they come forward from the plan teams, that the transition areas are properly prioritised and that the areas of greatest need benefit most from the transition money.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C710196", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26972, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 515.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26973, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 516.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meeting)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26974, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 517.0, "DisplayOrder": 517.0, "ID": 26974, "ParentID": 26973 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 522.0, "ContributionID": 710196, "EditedText": "I certainly accept that the courts of Scotland have a duty to follow the law; the matter of the interpretation of the law is, of course, sometimes the subject of debate. I do not want to comment on the merits of this particular matter because, as Alex Salmond knows, the whole judgment has now been referred by the law officers to the High Court.", "EditedTextHTML": "I certainly accept that the courts of Scotland have a duty to follow the law; the matter of the interpretation of the law is, of course, sometimes the subject of debate. I do not want to comment on the merits of this particular matter because, as Alex Salmond knows, the whole judgment has now been referred by the law officers to the High Court.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C710199", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26972, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 515.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26973, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 516.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meeting)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26974, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 517.0, "DisplayOrder": 517.0, "ID": 26974, "ParentID": 26973 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 528.0, "ContributionID": 710199, "EditedText": "Ronald King Murray was theLabour Lord Advocate before Andrew Hardie, and he is an eminent legal authority. I would have thought that the First Minister would acknowledge that. This is, after all, an issue of current controversy. The Scottish National party is against Trident; Labour's official policy in Scotland is against Trident; many Labour MSPs say that they are against Trident; and one of the First Minister's ministers may or may not be against Trident. If it is substantiated that the Trident nuclear system could be illegal under international law, will the First Minister acknowledge that he, and this Parliament, which is responsible for the law of Scotland, will have an obligation to do something about it?", "EditedTextHTML": "Ronald King Murray was the

Labour Lord Advocate before Andrew Hardie, and he is an eminent legal authority. I would have thought that the First Minister would acknowledge that. This is, after all, an issue of current controversy. The Scottish National party is against Trident; Labour's official policy in Scotland is against Trident; many Labour MSPs say that they are against Trident; and one of the First Minister's ministers may or may not be against Trident. If it is substantiated that the Trident nuclear system could be illegal under international law, will the First Minister acknowledge that he, and this Parliament, which is responsible for the law of Scotland, will have an obligation to do something about it?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C710212", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26972, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 515.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26973, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 516.0, "QuestionHeading": "SNP Leader (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26975, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 542.0, "DisplayOrder": 542.0, "ID": 26975, "ParentID": 26973 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 555.0, "ContributionID": 710212, "EditedText": "Is the First Minister aware that, in last week's European Committee, Mr Ben Wallace, who is sitting on the Conservative benches among the Europe extremists, made the best case for the euro when, on the subject of structural funding, he pointed out that the divergences between the euro exchange rate and the pound were very damaging to the Highlands?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is the First Minister aware that, in last week's European Committee, Mr Ben Wallace, who is sitting on the Conservative benches among the Europe extremists, made the best case for the euro when, on the subject of structural funding, he pointed out that the divergences between the euro exchange rate and the pound were very damaging to the Highlands?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C710215", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26972, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 515.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26973, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 516.0, "QuestionHeading": "SNP Leader (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26975, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 542.0, "DisplayOrder": 542.0, "ID": 26975, "ParentID": 26973 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 561.0, "ContributionID": 710215, "EditedText": "I firmly believe that a trade war would be a disaster for all parties caught in it and for many third parties. I do not want tit-for-tat politics in this matter. I remind members that our case for France lifting its beef ban is based on scientific evidence and it behoves us, therefore — if we are thinking about any action that we might take—to make sure that we base our actions on good scientific evidence. There is no evidence to justify the retaliation advocated by some of the more excitable elements in British politics.", "EditedTextHTML": "I firmly believe that a trade war would be a disaster for all parties caught in it and for many third parties. I do not want tit-for-tat politics in this matter. I remind members that our case for France lifting its beef ban is based on scientific evidence and it behoves us, therefore — if we are thinking about any action that we might take—to make sure that we base our actions on good scientific evidence. There is no evidence to justify the retaliation advocated by some of the more excitable elements in British politics.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C710219", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26972, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 515.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26973, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 516.0, "QuestionHeading": "NHS Pay Negotiations", "QuestionHeadingID": 26976, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 563.0, "DisplayOrder": 563.0, "ID": 26976, "ParentID": 26973 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 570.0, "ContributionID": 710219, "EditedText": "I can confirm that the other staff groups concerned have been offered 3 per cent and that negotiations are continuing through the machinery of the Whitley council. The Executive is committed to working with its counterparts throughout the UK fundamentally to overhaul and improve the pay system for the whole national health service. \"Agenda for Change\", which was published earlier this year and which the Executive has signed up to, sets out a way in which to do that—to modernise an outdated pay system and to put in its place a fairer system that is affordable to the public purse and that shows the value that we attribute to those who work in the NHS in Scotland and throughout the UK.", "EditedTextHTML": "I can confirm that the other staff groups concerned have been offered 3 per cent and that negotiations are continuing through the machinery of the Whitley council.

The Executive is committed to working with its counterparts throughout the UK fundamentally to overhaul and improve the pay system for the whole national health service. \"Agenda for Change\", which was published earlier this year and which the Executive has signed up to, sets out a way in which to do that—to modernise an outdated pay system and to put in its place a fairer system that is affordable to the public purse and that shows the value that we attribute to those who work in the NHS in Scotland and throughout the UK.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C710223", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26972, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 515.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26973, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 516.0, "QuestionHeading": "NHS Pay Negotiations", "QuestionHeadingID": 26976, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 563.0, "DisplayOrder": 563.0, "ID": 26976, "ParentID": 26973 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 578.0, "ContributionID": 710223, "EditedText": "I stress our commitment to examine the needs of all groups in the NHS. We are doing that in Scotland through mechanisms such as the Scottish partnership forum—which I mentioned—and through our own distinctive arrangements for work force planning in Scotland. That takes account of planning the health service's needs in future for recruitment and retention of staff. We are doing that work now, but we are also planning to ensure that, as we move into the 21st century, the best provisions are in place for all groups that work in the health service.", "EditedTextHTML": "I stress our commitment to examine the needs of all groups in the NHS. We are doing that in Scotland through mechanisms such as the Scottish partnership forum—which I

mentioned—and through our own distinctive arrangements for work force planning in Scotland. That takes account of planning the health service's needs in future for recruitment and retention of staff. We are doing that work now, but we are also planning to ensure that, as we move into the 21st century, the best provisions are in place for all groups that work in the health service.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1811E172P455C710226", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26972, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 515.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26973, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 516.0, "QuestionHeading": "NHS Pay Negotiations", "QuestionHeadingID": 26976, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 563.0, "DisplayOrder": 563.0, "ID": 26976, "ParentID": 26973 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ullrich, Kay", "ID": 1811, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kay Ullrich", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Kay Ullrich (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 584.0, "ContributionID": 710226, "EditedText": "Given that health spending in England and Wales will rise faster than health spending in Scotland, can the minister guarantee that pay settlements will be met in full?", "EditedTextHTML": "Given that health spending in England and Wales will rise faster than health spending in Scotland, can the minister guarantee that pay settlements will be met in full?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2154E194P299C710231", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish University for Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26977, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 588.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 588.0, "ID": 26977, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stephen, Nicol", "ID": 2154, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Nicol Stephen", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicol Stephen: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 596.0, "ContributionID": 710231, "EditedText": "Thank you. The document presents our vision for the Scottish university for industry and gives a progress report on its development. The Executive is committed to the creation of a culture of lifelong learning. At the hub of our plans is the establishment in 2000 of the Scottish university for industry. Scotland's future competitiveness will be governed by our ability to innovate and to use new skills to maximise the potential of new technology. The development of a knowledge-driven economy requires a shift in our mindset, greater receptiveness to new methods, and flair, determination and commitment to serve ever- changing customer demands. A passion for upgrading skills and knowledge will create the economic benefits for Scotland that we all want. Rapid social and economic change is having profound consequences. The job for life is disappearing, career patterns are becoming more fluid and individuals are having to take responsibility for their own learning. People need to develop their capabilities throughout their working lives to stay in employment and to maximise earning potential. The Scottish UFI is a radical new initiative that aims to promote a step change, a real transformation, in our drive to create a culture of lifelong learning. It is one of the key lifelong learning commitments in \"Making it work together: A programme for government\". It will connect people and businesses that want to improve their skills and training with the organisations that can offer them the learning that they need. It is about providing the right training, in the right place, at the right time and at the right cost. The first key objective of the Scottish UFI is to encourage more people, not only those with existing degrees or diplomas, but, perhaps especially, those with no formal qualifications, to carry on learning and gaining new skills throughout their lives.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you. The document presents our vision for the Scottish university for industry and gives a progress report on its development. The Executive is committed to the creation of a culture of lifelong learning. At the hub of our plans is the establishment in 2000 of the Scottish university for industry.

Scotland's future competitiveness will be governed by our ability to innovate and to use new skills to maximise the potential of new technology. The development of a knowledge-driven economy requires a shift in our mindset, greater receptiveness to new methods, and flair, determination and commitment to serve ever- changing customer demands. A passion for upgrading skills and knowledge will create the economic benefits for Scotland that we all want.

Rapid social and economic change is having profound consequences. The job for life is disappearing, career patterns are becoming more fluid and individuals are having to take responsibility for their own learning. People need to develop their capabilities throughout their working lives to stay in employment and to maximise earning potential.

The Scottish UFI is a radical new initiative that aims to promote a step change, a real transformation, in our drive to create a culture of lifelong learning. It is one of the key lifelong learning commitments in \"Making it work together: A programme for government\". It will connect people and businesses that want to improve their skills and training with the organisations that can offer them the learning that they need. It is about providing the right training, in the right place, at the right time and at the right cost.

The first key objective of the Scottish UFI is to encourage more people, not only those with existing degrees or diplomas, but, perhaps especially, those with no formal qualifications, to carry on learning and gaining new skills throughout their lives.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2154E194P299C710238", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish University for Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26977, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 588.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 588.0, "ID": 26977, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stephen, Nicol", "ID": 2154, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Nicol Stephen", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicol Stephen: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 610.0, "ContributionID": 710238, "EditedText": "That is a major investment, but we believe that it is the only way in which we can bring about the expansion and development of, and the passion and enthusiasm for, education and training that will be vital if Scotland is to seize the potential of the knowledge economy. The creation of a genuine culture of lifelong learning will transform Scotland. That is why the Scottish university for industry is vital. I move,That the Parliament welcomes the publication on 27 October of The Shortest Route to Learning, the Scottish Executive's progress report on the development of the Scottish University for Industry and supports the creation of the Scottish University for Industry which will enable people to access learning opportunities and learn throughout life on their own terms, so increasing individual employability and economic competitiveness.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is a major investment, but we believe that it is the only way in which we can bring about the expansion and development of, and the passion and enthusiasm for, education and training that will be vital if Scotland is to seize the potential of the knowledge economy. The creation of a genuine culture of lifelong learning will transform Scotland. That is why the Scottish university for industry is vital.

I move,

That the Parliament welcomes the publication on 27 October of The Shortest Route to Learning, the Scottish Executive's progress report on the development of the Scottish University for Industry and supports the creation of the Scottish University for Industry which will enable people to access learning opportunities and learn throughout life on their own terms, so increasing individual employability and economic competitiveness.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C710240", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish University for Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26977, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 588.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 588.0, "ID": 26977, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bruce Crawford (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 615.0, "ContributionID": 710240, "EditedText": "I am sure that John did not mean to take Dunfermline Athletic's name in vain in the way that he did. There are many of us present who are avid supporters of Dunfermline Athletic. Laughter. Please would he withdraw that comment.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sure that John did not mean to take Dunfermline Athletic's name in vain in the way that he did. There are many of us present who are avid supporters of Dunfermline Athletic. [Laughter.] Please would he withdraw that comment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C710242", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish University for Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26977, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 588.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 588.0, "ID": 26977, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Brian Monteith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 620.0, "ContributionID": 710242, "EditedText": "I welcome the opportunity to respond to the minister's statement today. I trust it will not have escaped his notice that the Conservatives have not sought to amend his motion. We have some serious reservations, on which we would like his reassurance, and after the Executive's winding-up speech we hope to be able to support the motion. In our opinion, the SNP amendment strengthens the motion; we will therefore support it. I hope that the minister will see fit to accept the amendment and establish one of those rare occasions when we achieve consensus after a serious debate.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the opportunity to respond to the minister's statement today. I trust it will not have escaped his notice that the Conservatives have not sought to amend his motion. We have some serious reservations, on which we would like his reassurance, and after the Executive's winding-up speech we hope to be able to support the motion. In our opinion, the SNP amendment strengthens the motion; we will therefore support it. I hope that the minister will see fit to accept the amendment and establish one of those rare occasions when we achieve consensus after a serious debate.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2154E194P299C710243", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish University for Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26977, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 588.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 588.0, "ID": 26977, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stephen, Nicol", "ID": 2154, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Nicol Stephen", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicol Stephen: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 622.0, "ContributionID": 710243, "EditedText": "It is the Executive's intention, in the spirit of consensus in which Mr Monteith's remarks were made, to accept Mr Swinney's amendment, which reinforces the main motion. The amendment is constructive, as Mr Swinney's remarks have reinforced.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is the Executive's intention, in the spirit of consensus in which Mr Monteith's remarks were made, to accept Mr Swinney's amendment, which reinforces the main motion. The amendment is constructive, as Mr Swinney's remarks have reinforced.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C710246", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish University for Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26977, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 588.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 588.0, "ID": 26977, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 628.0, "ContributionID": 710246, "EditedText": "Brian Monteith, you have one minute.", "EditedTextHTML": "Brian Monteith, you have one minute.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C710252", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish University for Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26977, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 588.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 588.0, "ID": 26977, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 641.0, "ContributionID": 710252, "EditedText": "Very briefly please.", "EditedTextHTML": "Very briefly please.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C710255", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish University for Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26977, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 588.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 588.0, "ID": 26977, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 647.0, "ContributionID": 710255, "EditedText": "A couple of sentences—", "EditedTextHTML": "A couple of sentences—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2066E64P88C710259", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish University for Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26977, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 588.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 588.0, "ID": 26977, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McGrigor, Jamie", "ID": 2066, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie McGrigor", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McGrigor: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 657.0, "ContributionID": 710259, "EditedText": "Will Mr Russell give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr Russell give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1986E53P206C710264", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish University for Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26977, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 588.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 588.0, "ID": 26977, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeil, Duncan", "ID": 1986, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Greenock and Inverclyde" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan McNeil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Duncan McNeil (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 668.0, "ContributionID": 710264, "EditedText": "The merits of establishing a Scottish university for industry are not in doubt. We all agree that we live and work in an ever-changing global economy. We have rejected the low-pay, low-productivity sweat-shop vision of the Tories in favour of a high-value knowledge economy. There is broad agreement and common ground between employers and the work force that we must move on. Why is it, as Elaine Thomson said, that access to in-company training in Scotland compares badly to that in the rest of the UK and internationally? Why do substantial amounts of money that are spent pre-employment stop when someone starts their first job? It is a sad fact that access to training in Scotland is a lottery. It depends on which company someone works for and where they live. Is it any wonder that skill shortages are starting to appear in vital sectors of the economy? Here is some information for Mr Monteith, who, unfortunately, has now left the chamber. Only a third of the 300 exporters in Renfrewshire do business on the internet. That is frightening. Of that 300, only two have a multilingual facility. That gives us an idea of the scale of the problems that we face. The success of any company increasingly depends on the quality of its human resources in a world in which, in many ways, people create their own job security—if they are not learning, they are not earning. Why is it that we must convince employees and employers to invest and participate in good-quality, work-based education and training?", "EditedTextHTML": "The merits of establishing a Scottish university for industry are not in doubt. We all agree that we live and work in an ever-changing global economy. We have rejected the low-pay, low-productivity sweat-shop vision of the Tories in favour of a high-value knowledge economy. There is broad agreement and common ground between employers and the work force that we must move on.

Why is it, as Elaine Thomson said, that access to in-company training in Scotland compares badly to that in the rest of the UK and internationally? Why do substantial amounts of money that are spent pre-employment stop when someone starts their first job? It is a sad fact that access to training in Scotland is a lottery. It depends on which company someone works for and where they live. Is it any wonder that skill shortages are starting to appear in vital sectors of the economy?

Here is some information for Mr Monteith, who, unfortunately, has now left the chamber. Only a third of the 300 exporters in Renfrewshire do business on the internet. That is frightening. Of that 300, only two have a multilingual facility. That gives us an idea of the scale of the problems that we face. The success of any company increasingly depends on the quality of its human resources in a world in which, in many ways, people create their own job security—if they are not learning, they are not earning. Why is it that we must convince employees and employers to invest and participate in good-quality, work-based education and training?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1986E53P206C710266", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish University for Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26977, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 588.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 588.0, "ID": 26977, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeil, Duncan", "ID": 1986, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Greenock and Inverclyde" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan McNeil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McNeil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 672.0, "ContributionID": 710266, "EditedText": "Be brief please, as I have not got much time.", "EditedTextHTML": "Be brief please, as I have not got much time.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2152E53P75C710273", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish University for Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26977, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 588.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 588.0, "ID": 26977, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnston, Nick", "ID": 2152, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nick Johnston", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Johnston: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 687.0, "ContributionID": 710273, "EditedText": "I will.We need assurances that this initiative will lead to greater access to skill enhancement for people in small and medium enterprises. If it turns out to be merely another of the myriad organisations feeding from the educational trough at the taxpayer's expense, it will quickly—and deservedly—die a death.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will.

We need assurances that this initiative will lead to greater access to skill enhancement for people in small and medium enterprises. If it turns out to be merely another of the myriad organisations feeding from the educational trough at the taxpayer's expense, it will quickly—and deservedly—die a death.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1768E72P274C710274", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish University for Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26977, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 588.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 588.0, "ID": 26977, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Murray, Elaine", "ID": 1768, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumfries" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Murray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Elaine Murray (Dumfries) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 690.0, "ContributionID": 710274, "EditedText": "As the minister has said, the Scottish university for industry will be a broker between individuals and organisations rather than a provider. As such, it will have an important role to play in widening access to learning and in addressing the difficulties that are experienced by adult learners living in remote areas who want to study courses relevant to their needs and their employment aspirations. Mature students with work and family commitments need flexible, usually part-time, provision that they can fit around other obligations. They may have additional needs. For example, some potential adult learners have had negative experiences of education in the school system and may have little confidence in their ability to learn. Community education services in local authorities have an important role to play in enabling those adults to tackle their personal development needs. I was pleased that the document said that councils have been asked to prioritise that issue, although, from what Mr Johnston says, perhaps more information is needed. Methods of teaching and learning are changing rapidly with developments in information and communications technology. Many education providers are already taking advantage of those developments to deliver courses to students in remote locations. The Open University has used distance teaching and learning throughout Scotland for a long time. During my time with the Open University, I taught chemistry to students living from Stranraer to Shetland without—perhaps unfortunately—anybody being required to travel. Last week, the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee enjoyed a presentation—I certainly enjoyed it, anyway—from the principal of the University of the Highlands and Islands. He demonstrated how that institution intended to use new technology and short-break courses at centres of excellence to deliver to students from remote areas a wide range of courses, including, interestingly, engineering and applied sciences. Exciting developments are taking place in Dumfries, where the Crichton College of the University of Glasgow has just taken in its first cohort of students. I can miss out the next section of my speech, as Mike Russell has said many of the things that I wanted to say. He will not be surprised to learn that I have written to the newly appointed chief executive of the Scottish university for industry, Mr Frank Pignatelli, whom I know from a previous life, to offer him my congratulations and to outline the sterling qualities of that site for that purpose. The Scottish university for industry must be more than a telephone or e-mail helpline or a database account provision. I agree with what Mr Swinney said on that issue: it must be a vehicle for a change in attitudes to learning and a real opportunity for Scots, wherever they live and whatever they have or have not achieved in other learning environments, to access the education that they want and need. It must also be a mechanism for Scottish industries to access training for their employees to ensure that they benefit from a skilled and confident work force. Education is and will remain the powerhouse of the Scottish economy. I welcome the publication of the document, although, like some other members, I am slightly confused by its style, particularly the inclusion of a picture of a young gentleman's posterior on page 16. Perhaps I am a little old fashioned.", "EditedTextHTML": "As the minister has said, the Scottish university for industry will be a broker between individuals and organisations rather than a provider. As such, it will have an important role to play in widening access to learning and in addressing the difficulties that are experienced by adult learners living in remote areas who want to study courses relevant to their needs and their employment aspirations.

Mature students with work and family commitments need flexible, usually part-time, provision that they can fit around other obligations. They may have additional needs. For example, some potential adult learners have had negative experiences of education in the school system and may have little confidence in their ability to learn. Community education services in local authorities have an important role to play in enabling those adults to tackle their personal development needs. I was pleased that the document said that councils have been asked to prioritise that issue, although, from what Mr Johnston says, perhaps more information is needed.

Methods of teaching and learning are changing rapidly with developments in information and communications technology. Many education providers are already taking advantage of those developments to deliver courses to students in remote locations. The Open University has used distance teaching and learning throughout Scotland for a long time. During my time with the Open University, I taught chemistry to students living from Stranraer to Shetland without—perhaps unfortunately—anybody being required to travel.

Last week, the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee enjoyed a presentation—I certainly enjoyed it, anyway—from the principal of the

University of the Highlands and Islands. He demonstrated how that institution intended to use new technology and short-break courses at centres of excellence to deliver to students from remote areas a wide range of courses, including, interestingly, engineering and applied sciences.

Exciting developments are taking place in Dumfries, where the Crichton College of the University of Glasgow has just taken in its first cohort of students. I can miss out the next section of my speech, as Mike Russell has said many of the things that I wanted to say. He will not be surprised to learn that I have written to the newly appointed chief executive of the Scottish university for industry, Mr Frank Pignatelli, whom I know from a previous life, to offer him my congratulations and to outline the sterling qualities of that site for that purpose.

The Scottish university for industry must be more than a telephone or e-mail helpline or a database account provision. I agree with what Mr Swinney said on that issue: it must be a vehicle for a change in attitudes to learning and a real opportunity for Scots, wherever they live and whatever they have or have not achieved in other learning environments, to access the education that they want and need. It must also be a mechanism for Scottish industries to access training for their employees to ensure that they benefit from a skilled and confident work force.

Education is and will remain the powerhouse of the Scottish economy. I welcome the publication of the document, although, like some other members, I am slightly confused by its style, particularly the inclusion of a picture of a young gentleman's posterior on page 16. Perhaps I am a little old fashioned.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1970E66P288C710282", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish University for Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26977, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 588.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 588.0, "ID": 26977, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNulty, Des", "ID": 1970, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Clydebank and Milngavie" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Des McNulty", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Des McNulty (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 713.0, "ContributionID": 710282, "EditedText": "I would like to give a general but not entirely enthusiastic welcome to the creation of a Scottish university for industry. There has been substantial delay in reaching the point that we are at and it is disappointing that we have had to wait so long for the Scottish university for industry proposal to come to fruition. The university for industry could do a number of things that the present further and higher education system in Scotland cannot deliver, but having read the document I have some concerns about what we are about to create. I would like to highlight three issues. First, having worked in higher education for more than 20 years, I know that there is a substantial resource cost and skills requirement in creating high technology-based learning materials. That is not fully recognised in the document. It is a very expensive process and many universities and businesses around the world are engaged in the production of such materials. To produce those materials at the required quality and to make them as accessible as is required is a very resource- intensive process. People should understand what is required if the objective is, as I think it must be, to achieve a world-class system of learning materials. The university for industry is a start on that route, but it should not be seen as the only mechanism by which Scotland can move that agenda onwards. The university could be a co-ordinating mechanism, but the document does not make its role as clear as I would like. The second great danger is that the university might become a separate university institution— another degree-awarding body. There is a real danger it might become a different kind of university that exists in competition with the current university sector. I see the proper role of the university for industry as being less a degree- awarding body than a bridge to learning. It could be a mechanism through which people who are presently excluded from learning—because of their personal circumstances, their educational history, or the fact that their particular needs are not catered for in the existing system—can get what they need. The university for industry must have a unique selling point and its own profile. If it replicates the existing system, it will fail. The document should be clearer about that and I hope that ministers will be clear that it will be complementary—not more of the same—unique and different. Thirdly, I think the chapter on partnership issues is vague. Partnership is a good idea, but I would have liked to see real case studies—not imaginary ones—that show what can be achieved in terms of real educational materials, the creation of learning centres and the other objectives mentioned in the document, through existing examples of co-operation between people in education and people in industry. The document's objectives and the processes it mentions are entirely admirable. Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con)rose—", "EditedTextHTML": "I would like to give a general but not entirely enthusiastic welcome to the creation of a Scottish university for industry. There has been substantial delay in reaching the point that we are at and it is disappointing that we have had to wait so long for the Scottish university for industry proposal to come to fruition.

The university for industry could do a number of things that the present further and higher education system in Scotland cannot deliver, but having read the document I have some concerns about what we are about to create. I would like to highlight three issues.

First, having worked in higher education for more than 20 years, I know that there is a substantial resource cost and skills requirement in creating high technology-based learning materials. That is not fully recognised in the document. It is a very expensive process and many universities and businesses around the world are engaged in the production of such materials. To produce those materials at the required quality and to make them as accessible as is required is a very resource- intensive process. People should understand what is required if the objective is, as I think it must be, to achieve a world-class system of learning materials.

The university for industry is a start on that route, but it should not be seen as the only mechanism by which Scotland can move that agenda onwards. The university could be a co-ordinating mechanism, but the document does not make its role as clear as I would like.

The second great danger is that the university might become a separate university institution— another degree-awarding body. There is a real danger it might become a different kind of university that exists in competition with the current university sector. I see the proper role of the university for industry as being less a degree- awarding body than a bridge to learning. It could be a mechanism through which people who are presently excluded from learning—because of their personal circumstances, their educational history, or the fact that their particular needs are not catered for in the existing system—can get what they need.

The university for industry must have a unique selling point and its own profile. If it replicates the existing system, it will fail. The document should be clearer about that and I hope that ministers will be clear that it will be complementary—not more of the same—unique and different.

Thirdly, I think the chapter on partnership issues is vague. Partnership is a good idea, but I would have liked to see real case studies—not imaginary ones—that show what can be achieved in terms of real educational materials, the creation of learning centres and the other objectives mentioned in the document, through existing examples of co-operation between people in education and people in industry.

The document's objectives and the processes it mentions are entirely admirable.

Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con)

rose—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C710284", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish University for Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26977, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 588.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 588.0, "ID": 26977, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Annabel Goldie (West of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 718.0, "ContributionID": 710284, "EditedText": "It is with the greatest of reluctance that I divert my attention from the young man's posterior—one of the more diverting features of the debate—on page 16 of the document. The Conservative party entirely endorses the principle of the document, which states very properly that many people perceive learning as an end in itself and not as way of fulfilling their potential. It also says that \"the Scottish university for industry (SUfI) will change that. It will address people's aspirations, and raise their expectations of what learning can do for them.\" That is admirable and we Conservatives applaud it, but endorsement of a principle justifies examination of the practice. This debate has raised questions about practice. How will the concept work and, indeed, what is the concept? Mr Stephen said in his introductory remarks that it will not be a university. Perhaps we ought to stop calling it that. He also said that it would not end up being called the Scottish university for industry. We need to get the nomenclature right. If I may say so, if I think that the minister is an honourable man, I shall call him that, and if I think that he is a prat, I shall call him that, too. Whatever we think this is going to be, we ought to understand what it is and we should define it more precisely. I suspect that it would be more honest to describe it as the institution for Scottish lifelong learning. One of the case studies in the document opens with the question: \"Why a Scottish University for Industry?\"and answers:\"If Scotland wants to remain part of a highly competitive global economy, it has to grasp fully the wide-ranging opportunities afforded by advances in technology.\" That suggests to me that it must be driven byindustry and I hope that, when he winds up, the minister will confirm what consultation has taken place with industry and how industry responded. Mr Swinney was right to refer to concerns about duplication of advisory and educational facilities at local level. That problem is already exercising the attention of members of the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee. The document has much in the way of verbiage, but it also has glaring gaps. If, as has been indicated, this institution or concept is not to be a mere telephone database, we need to know the answer to some questions. We need to know how the expensive duplication of existing education and advice sources will be avoided and we need to know how the concept will materialise in a manner that is clear and accessible to the public. Such clarity is certainly lacking. Would not the network of local enterprise companies be a sensible co-ordinator of local provision to serve industry? What will be the quantitative measures of the performance of the institution? How will we know whether it is working? How will be know whether it is succeeding in achieving whatever its declared objectives will be? This Parliament has a specific interest in those questions and I hope that the minister will clarify the Executive's intention to make matters more transparent. Will the institution, whatever it is to be called, be directly accountable to the Executive? For audit purposes, will it be subject to annual examination by the Audit Committee of the Parliament? If those questions cannot be answered satisfactorily, the proposal will be seen as empty Government dogma and that would be regrettable. The Conservative party would like to see the Scottish university for industry as a much-needed added- value component to industry. That is what this country needs. The Conservative party endorses the motion and the amendment. However, I hope that the minister will respond to questions about areas of concern when he winds up the debate.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is with the greatest of reluctance that I divert my attention from the young man's posterior—one of the more diverting features of the debate—on page 16 of the document.

The Conservative party entirely endorses the principle of the document, which states very properly that many people perceive learning as an end in itself and not as way of fulfilling their potential. It also says that

\"the Scottish university for industry (SUfI) will change that. It will address people's aspirations, and raise their expectations of what learning can do for them.\"

That is admirable and we Conservatives applaud it, but endorsement of a principle justifies examination of the practice. This debate has raised questions about practice. How will the concept work and, indeed, what is the concept? Mr Stephen said in his introductory remarks that it will not be a university. Perhaps we ought to stop calling it that. He also said that it would not end up being called the Scottish university for industry. We need to get the nomenclature right.

If I may say so, if I think that the minister is an honourable man, I shall call him that, and if I think that he is a prat, I shall call him that, too. Whatever we think this is going to be, we ought to understand what it is and we should define it more precisely.

I suspect that it would be more honest to describe it as the institution for Scottish lifelong learning. One of the case studies in the document opens with the question:

\"Why a Scottish University for Industry?\"

and answers:

\"If Scotland wants to remain part of a highly competitive global economy, it has to grasp fully the wide-ranging opportunities afforded by advances in technology.\"

That suggests to me that it must be driven by

industry and I hope that, when he winds up, the minister will confirm what consultation has taken place with industry and how industry responded.

Mr Swinney was right to refer to concerns about duplication of advisory and educational facilities at local level. That problem is already exercising the attention of members of the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee.

The document has much in the way of verbiage, but it also has glaring gaps. If, as has been indicated, this institution or concept is not to be a mere telephone database, we need to know the answer to some questions. We need to know how the expensive duplication of existing education and advice sources will be avoided and we need to know how the concept will materialise in a manner that is clear and accessible to the public. Such clarity is certainly lacking.

Would not the network of local enterprise companies be a sensible co-ordinator of local provision to serve industry? What will be the quantitative measures of the performance of the institution? How will we know whether it is working? How will be know whether it is succeeding in achieving whatever its declared objectives will be? This Parliament has a specific interest in those questions and I hope that the minister will clarify the Executive's intention to make matters more transparent.

Will the institution, whatever it is to be called, be directly accountable to the Executive? For audit purposes, will it be subject to annual examination by the Audit Committee of the Parliament? If those questions cannot be answered satisfactorily, the proposal will be seen as empty Government dogma and that would be regrettable. The Conservative party would like to see the Scottish university for industry as a much-needed added- value component to industry. That is what this country needs.

The Conservative party endorses the motion and the amendment. However, I hope that the minister will respond to questions about areas of concern when he winds up the debate.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1889E118P162C710287", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish University for Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26977, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 588.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 588.0, "ID": 26977, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morrison, Mr Alasdair", "ID": 1889, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Western Isles" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morrison", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Highlands and Islands and Gaelic (Mr Alasdair Morrison): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 725.0, "ContributionID": 710287, "EditedText": "I saw hands on that photo—not a posterior.", "EditedTextHTML": "I saw hands on that photo—not a posterior.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1889E118P162C710289", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish University for Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26977, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 588.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 588.0, "ID": 26977, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morrison, Mr Alasdair", "ID": 1889, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Western Isles" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morrison", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Morrison: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 729.0, "ContributionID": 710289, "EditedText": "In the winding-up speech.", "EditedTextHTML": "In the winding-up speech.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "C710297", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Lead Committee", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26978, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 746.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 746.0, "ID": 26978, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 747.0, "ContributionID": 710297, "EditedText": "Motion moved,", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion moved,

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "C710299", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Lead Committee", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26978, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 746.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 746.0, "ID": 26978, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 749.0, "ContributionID": 710299, "EditedText": "The Rural Affairs Committee to consider the Organic Aid (Scotland) Amendment Regulations 1999 (SSI 1999/107).—Mr McCabe.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Rural Affairs Committee to consider the Organic Aid (Scotland) Amendment Regulations 1999 (SSI 1999/107).—[Mr McCabe.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C710300", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26979, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 750.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 750.0, "ID": 26979, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ms Patricia Ferguson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 752.0, "ContributionID": 710300, "EditedText": "There are five questions to be put as a result of today's business. The first question is that amendment S1M-230.2, in the name of Mr Alex Salmond, which seeks to amend motion S1M-230, in the name of Mr Jack McConnell, on European structural funds, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "There are five questions to be put as a result of today's business. The first question is that amendment S1M-230.2, in the name of Mr Alex Salmond, which seeks to amend motion S1M-230, in the name of Mr Jack McConnell, on European structural funds, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "C710301", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26979, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 750.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 750.0, "ID": 26979, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 754.0, "ContributionID": 710301, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2185E120P328C710309", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26979, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 750.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 750.0, "ID": 26979, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Brown, Robert", "ID": 2185, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robert Brown", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robert Brown (Glasgow) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 768.0, "ContributionID": 710309, "EditedText": "On a point of order. My thing is flashing. Laughter.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. My thing is flashing. [Laughter.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C710304", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26979, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 750.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 750.0, "ID": 26979, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 759.0, "ContributionID": 710304, "EditedText": "The result of the division is as follows: For 30, Against 73, Abstentions 1.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result of the division is as follows: For 30, Against 73,

Abstentions 1.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "C710305", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26979, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 750.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 750.0, "ID": 26979, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 761.0, "ContributionID": 710305, "EditedText": "Amendment disagreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment disagreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4514296+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C710308", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26979, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 750.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 750.0, "ID": 26979, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 766.0, "ContributionID": 710308, "EditedText": "There will be a division.", "EditedTextHTML": "There will be a division.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4514296+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2185E120P328C710311", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26979, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 750.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 750.0, "ID": 26979, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Brown, Robert", "ID": 2185, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robert Brown", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robert Brown: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 772.0, "ContributionID": 710311, "EditedText": "I was trying to convey the fact that the machine was not working. Interruption.", "EditedTextHTML": "I was trying to convey the fact that the machine was not working. [Interruption.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4514296+00:00" }, { "ID": "C710321", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26979, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 750.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 750.0, "ID": 26979, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 787.0, "ContributionID": 710321, "EditedText": "That the Parliament welcomes the publication on 27 October of The Shortest Route to Learning, the Scottish Executive's progress report on the development of the Scottish University for Industry and supports the creation of the Scottish University for Industry which will enable people to access learning opportunities and learn throughout life on their own terms, so increasing individual employability and economic competitiveness and requires that the project to establish a Scottish University for Industry must clearly establish that value is being added by the project to existing provision and that adequate performance measurement be undertaken to enable the Parliament to judge the effectiveness of this initiative.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament welcomes the publication on 27 October of The Shortest Route to Learning, the Scottish Executive's progress report on the development of the Scottish University for Industry and supports the creation of the Scottish University for Industry which will enable people to access learning opportunities and learn throughout life on their own terms, so increasing individual employability and economic competitiveness and requires that the project to establish a Scottish University for Industry must clearly establish that value is being added by the project to existing provision and that adequate performance measurement be undertaken to enable the Parliament to judge the effectiveness of this initiative.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4514296+00:00" }, { "ID": "C710328", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Regional Selective Assistance", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26980, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 795.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 795.0, "ID": 26980, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 798.0, "ContributionID": 710328, "EditedText": "Motion debated,", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion debated,

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4514296+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1901E57P277C710330", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Regional Selective Assistance", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26980, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 795.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 795.0, "ID": 26980, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Allan", "ID": 1901, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Cunninghame North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Allan Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Allan Wilson (Cunninghame North) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 801.0, "ContributionID": 710330, "EditedText": "I realise that this might not be the most exciting subject for this time of the evening, but I believe that regional selective assistance is a vital tool in combating the areas of high and persistent unemployment in our communities. With the advent of a new assisted areas map, it is appropriate and opportune to have a brief debate on the workings of RSA and how it might assist areas such as my constituency of Cunninghame North, most of which remains eligible to receive RSA. The assisted areas map represents an excellent result for Scotland and is a good example of the UK Government working closely and effectively with the Scottish Executive and the Scottish Parliament. The negotiating strength of the UK has got us a good deal overall on RSA and structural funds cover, which we discussed this morning. The Scottish Executive has been able to define the areas of eligibility at a detailed level in line with local needs. Regional selective assistance remains probably the most important incentive for companies that are thinking of establishing or consolidating businesses in eligible areas. It is important to remember that RSA is available to indigenous companies as well as to inward investors and to companies that need to invest to protect existing jobs as well as to those that are investing to create employment. Perhaps that is not sufficiently understood. The impression is sometimes given that only big, glossy inward investors qualify for regional selective assistance, which is far from the truth. I am assured that no indigenous company has been turned down for regional selective assistance because the money has been taken up by inward investors. Perhaps the minister will confirm that. I want to stress two issues. First, RSA must continue to span the whole range of job-creating activities in eligible areas. It is all very well to talk about focusing RSA more effectively on sustainable, so-called quality projects—no one would argue with that—but that must be interpreted flexibly. In many of the areas that have most need of regional selective assistance as a tool to attract the high-tech projects that I suspect the word \"quality\" refers to in this context, for example, the three towns in the Garnock valley in my constituency, any development that brings substantial additional employment is welcome— the higher the quality, the better. I would hate to think that a call centre or a fairly basic manufacturing investment might be lost because RSA was concentrated on more sophisticated or headline-grabbing projects. I hope that the minister will give an assurance that that is not the case. I also want to make a strong plea for the regional selective assistance priority scheme, which has now been running for two years and targets five areas, including the three towns in north Ayrshire. In general, the scheme allows regional selective assistance in those five pilot areas to be paid at a substantially higher rate—up to £3,000 per job extra—than is paid anywhere else, if the company takes on employees who live in those areas, which have high and persistent unemployment. In principle, it is an excellent scheme that should go a long way towards levelling the playing field for communities that have the greatest difficulty in attracting investment and employment. However, I am far from convinced that the scheme is being promoted with much enthusiasm or commitment by the various economic development agencies. What national advertising has been done, for instance, to draw attention to the existence of RSA priority and the significant extra benefits that can be offered in the five pilot areas? The answer, I suspect, is none. I meet companies all the time that might be interested in going to those three towns, rather than some other location, but which have never heard of RSA priority. What has been done to promote it? I make a serious plea for a real marketing strategy to raise awareness of the priority scheme, not only on behalf of the three towns in my Cunninghame North constituency, but on behalf of the other four pilot areas, in particular the areas of high unemployment in Glasgow, Dundee and the Vale of Leven. The pilot period for RSA priority will soon come to an end. I do not want anyone, especially at ministerial level, to suggest that it should be abandoned because the uptake has been low. Uptake has been low largely because so little has been done to stimulate interest in and awareness of the potential of RSA priority. What I want to hear from the minister today is that RSA priority will continue in the pilot areas, but at a higher rate per job than has been the case hitherto, and that such an increase will be accompanied by an innovative, imaginative and strident marketing strategy to promote RSA and RSA priority plus.", "EditedTextHTML": "I realise that this might not be the most exciting subject for this time of the evening, but I believe that regional selective assistance is a vital tool in combating the areas of high and persistent unemployment in our communities.

With the advent of a new assisted areas map, it is appropriate and opportune to have a brief debate on the workings of RSA and how it might assist areas such as my constituency of Cunninghame North, most of which remains eligible to receive RSA. The assisted areas map represents an excellent result for Scotland and is a good example of the UK Government working closely and effectively with the Scottish Executive and the Scottish Parliament.

The negotiating strength of the UK has got us a good deal overall on RSA and structural funds cover, which we discussed this morning. The Scottish Executive has been able to define the areas of eligibility at a detailed level in line with local needs. Regional selective assistance remains probably the most important incentive for companies that are thinking of establishing or consolidating businesses in eligible areas. It is important to remember that RSA is available to indigenous companies as well as to inward investors and to companies that need to invest to protect existing jobs as well as to those that are investing to create employment.

Perhaps that is not sufficiently understood. The impression is sometimes given that only big, glossy inward investors qualify for regional selective assistance, which is far from the truth. I am assured that no indigenous company has been turned down for regional selective assistance because the money has been taken up by inward investors. Perhaps the minister will confirm that.

I want to stress two issues. First, RSA must continue to span the whole range of job-creating activities in eligible areas. It is all very well to talk about focusing RSA more effectively on sustainable, so-called quality projects—no one would argue with that—but that must be interpreted flexibly. In many of the areas that have most need of regional selective assistance as a tool to attract the high-tech projects that I suspect the word \"quality\" refers to in this context, for example, the three towns in the Garnock valley in my constituency, any development that brings substantial additional employment is welcome— the higher the quality, the better. I would hate to think that a call centre or a fairly basic manufacturing investment might be lost because RSA was concentrated on more sophisticated or headline-grabbing projects. I hope that the minister will give an assurance that that is not the case.

I also want to make a strong plea for the regional selective assistance priority scheme, which has now been running for two years and targets five areas, including the three towns in north Ayrshire. In general, the scheme allows regional selective assistance in those five pilot areas to be paid at a substantially higher rate—up to £3,000 per job extra—than is paid anywhere else, if the company takes on employees who live in those areas, which have high and persistent unemployment. In principle, it is an excellent scheme that should go a long way towards levelling the playing field for communities that have the greatest difficulty in attracting investment and employment. However, I am far from convinced that the scheme is being promoted with much enthusiasm or commitment by the various economic development agencies.

What national advertising has been done, for instance, to draw attention to the existence of RSA priority and the significant extra benefits that can be offered in the five pilot areas? The answer, I suspect, is none. I meet companies all the time that might be interested in going to those three towns, rather than some other location, but which have never heard of RSA priority. What has been done to promote it? I make a serious plea for a real marketing strategy to raise awareness of the priority scheme, not only on behalf of the three towns in my Cunninghame North constituency, but on behalf of the other four pilot areas, in particular the areas of high unemployment in Glasgow, Dundee and the Vale of Leven.

The pilot period for RSA priority will soon come to an end. I do not want anyone, especially at ministerial level, to suggest that it should be abandoned because the uptake has been low. Uptake has been low largely because so little has been done to stimulate interest in and awareness of the potential of RSA priority. What I want to hear from the minister today is that RSA priority will continue in the pilot areas, but at a higher rate per job than has been the case hitherto, and that

such an increase will be accompanied by an innovative, imaginative and strident marketing strategy to promote RSA and RSA priority plus.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4514296+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C710332", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Regional Selective Assistance", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26980, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 795.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 795.0, "ID": 26980, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 806.0, "ContributionID": 710332, "EditedText": "Members should restrict their speeches to about three minutes, please.", "EditedTextHTML": "Members should restrict their speeches to about three minutes, please.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4514296+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1782E69P279C710333", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Regional Selective Assistance", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26980, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 795.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 795.0, "ID": 26980, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Oldfather, Irene", "ID": 1782, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Cunninghame South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Irene Oldfather", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Irene Oldfather (Cunninghame South) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 809.0, "ContributionID": 710333, "EditedText": "I thank Allan Wilson, my neighbour and colleague in Cunninghame North, for the opportunity to debate the motion. I am happy to support Allan's call for the retention and development of regional selective assistance priority schemes in areas of high and persistent unemployment. The three towns priority area, to which Allan referred, is split between my constituency and his, but I would dearly like to see its positive effects spread through more of Cunninghame South, given my constituency's structural problems. I wish to take this opportunity to outline to the minister some of the problems in Cunninghame South before addressing the action that needs to be taken and how regional selective assistance priority can help. On employment in Cunninghame South, north Ayrshire's unemployment rate is consistently 4 per cent above the Scottish average. While Scotland's employment rate is expected to grow by around 3 per cent by 2007, that of Ayrshire is expected to fall by 1 per cent, mostly accounted for by north and east Ayrshire. The situation has been worsened with the announcement that the Volvo bus and manufacturing plant, as the Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning knows, wants to move its operations to Belgium and Sweden. That is symptomatic of the problems of the Ayrshire economy: 95 per cent of Ayrshire's exports are generated by firms with more than 200 employees, making us vulnerable to such relocations. Our business birth rate remains low and existing small and medium enterprises are still reliant on traditional markets. Ayrshire's economy is overweight in the traditional manufacturing sector and underweight in growth sectors, such as creative industries and new business. There are positive signs, including the expansion of higher education. In my area, we will have the new north Ayrshire college next year. The siting of Universal Scientific Instruments in Irvine will provide 800 jobs over the next three years. However, north Ayrshire urgently needs a greater knowledge base, to attract new industries to the area and to encourage diversification in existing firms. Given Ayrshire's highly self- contained labour market, generating jobs locally is the most effective way of addressing structural change, so I call for an extension of the priority scheme to cover more of north Ayrshire. The status of the three towns remains and I hope that funding will stay at least at its current level and perhaps will increase to more than £3,000 per person, to increase the competitiveness of the priority areas. In areas such as north Ayrshire, which have suffered from high unemployment for decades, the Scottish Parliament represents a real hope for change and a brighter future.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank Allan Wilson, my neighbour and colleague in Cunninghame North, for the opportunity to debate the motion. I am happy to support Allan's call for the retention and development of regional selective assistance priority schemes in areas of high and persistent unemployment.

The three towns priority area, to which Allan referred, is split between my constituency and his, but I would dearly like to see its positive effects spread through more of Cunninghame South, given my constituency's structural problems. I wish to take this opportunity to outline to the minister some of the problems in Cunninghame South before addressing the action that needs to be taken and how regional selective assistance priority can help.

On employment in Cunninghame South, north Ayrshire's unemployment rate is consistently 4 per cent above the Scottish average. While Scotland's employment rate is expected to grow by around 3 per cent by 2007, that of Ayrshire is expected to fall by 1 per cent, mostly accounted for by north and east Ayrshire.

The situation has been worsened with the announcement that the Volvo bus and manufacturing plant, as the Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning knows, wants to move its operations to Belgium and Sweden. That is symptomatic of the problems of the Ayrshire

economy: 95 per cent of Ayrshire's exports are generated by firms with more than 200 employees, making us vulnerable to such relocations. Our business birth rate remains low and existing small and medium enterprises are still reliant on traditional markets. Ayrshire's economy is overweight in the traditional manufacturing sector and underweight in growth sectors, such as creative industries and new business.

There are positive signs, including the expansion of higher education. In my area, we will have the new north Ayrshire college next year. The siting of Universal Scientific Instruments in Irvine will provide 800 jobs over the next three years. However, north Ayrshire urgently needs a greater knowledge base, to attract new industries to the area and to encourage diversification in existing firms. Given Ayrshire's highly self- contained labour market, generating jobs locally is the most effective way of addressing structural change, so I call for an extension of the priority scheme to cover more of north Ayrshire. The status of the three towns remains and I hope that funding will stay at least at its current level and perhaps will increase to more than £3,000 per person, to increase the competitiveness of the priority areas.

In areas such as north Ayrshire, which have suffered from high unemployment for decades, the Scottish Parliament represents a real hope for change and a brighter future.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4514296+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1752E75P296C710335", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Regional Selective Assistance", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26980, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 795.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 795.0, "ID": 26980, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jamieson, Cathy", "ID": 1752, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Cathy Jamieson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Cathy Jamieson (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 815.0, "ContributionID": 710335, "EditedText": "It seems as if this is a three towns initiative debate. If it is a members' debate, it is disappointing that there are not more members present. It is also disappointing that there are not more members from further afield than Ayrshire. As a resident of the three towns area, despite the fact that I represent Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley, I welcome the debate, because I know that many of the people who live and attempt to find work in the area around me are in the third generation of those who have never had a decent or quality job. Allan Wilson is to be congratulated on initiating the debate. It is unfortunate that more members are not here to examine the issue. When we look at the future of selective assistance, we should do so critically. Allan was right to point out the benefits that have been brought to the priority areas. I welcome the fact that priority was given to areas of high unemployment, in an effort to ensure that money was targeted at the correct areas, but in some instances, some of the promised jobs have not materialised. We must be honest about that. We must also be honest about the fact that some of the companies that have received assistance, particularly some of the manufacturing and electronics companies, have not brought the working conditions that, as a trade unionist, I would like to see. If we are looking to the future, we should concentrate on that. Let us target the money and support firms, but let us put some conditions on that support: jobs should be high-quality, and there should be trade union recognition and decent working conditions. If companies do not deliver those conditions, they should not be able to get up and walk away. That should apply to inward investments and indigenous companies. The money is there for a purpose. Let us ensure that it is targeted at the right areas, but we should also ensure that people have the working conditions that they deserve.", "EditedTextHTML": "It seems as if this is a three towns initiative debate. If it is a members' debate, it is disappointing that there are not more members present. It is also disappointing that there are not more members from further afield than Ayrshire.

As a resident of the three towns area, despite the fact that I represent Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley, I welcome the debate, because I know that many of the people who live and attempt to find work in the area around me are in the third generation of those who have never had a decent or quality job. Allan Wilson is to be congratulated on initiating the debate. It is unfortunate that more members are not here to examine the issue.

When we look at the future of selective assistance, we should do so critically. Allan was right to point out the benefits that have been brought to the priority areas. I welcome the fact that priority was given to areas of high unemployment, in an effort to ensure that money was targeted at the correct areas, but in some instances, some of the promised jobs have not materialised. We must be honest about that. We must also be honest about the fact that some of the companies that have received assistance, particularly some of the manufacturing and electronics companies, have not brought the

working conditions that, as a trade unionist, I would like to see. If we are looking to the future, we should concentrate on that.

Let us target the money and support firms, but let us put some conditions on that support: jobs should be high-quality, and there should be trade union recognition and decent working conditions. If companies do not deliver those conditions, they should not be able to get up and walk away. That should apply to inward investments and indigenous companies. The money is there for a purpose. Let us ensure that it is targeted at the right areas, but we should also ensure that people have the working conditions that they deserve.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4514296+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C710337", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Regional Selective Assistance", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26980, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 795.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 795.0, "ID": 26980, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 820.0, "ContributionID": 710337, "EditedText": "The final seven minutes of the debate go to the minister, who will wind up.", "EditedTextHTML": "The final seven minutes of the debate go to the minister, who will wind up.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4514296+00:00" }, { "ID": "C710339", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Regional Selective Assistance", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26980, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 795.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 795.0, "ID": 26980, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 825.0, "ContributionID": 710339, "EditedText": "Meeting closed at 17:33.", "EditedTextHTML": "Meeting closed at 17:33.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4514296+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C710293", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish University for Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26977, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 588.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 588.0, "ID": 26977, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 738.0, "ContributionID": 710293, "EditedText": "I suspect that, from the way in which Mr Morrison is addressing what has been said, he may have dealt with the points that I raised. However, I would like him to comment, either today or in writing afterwards, on one specific point that I raised. Will he explain how the university for industry project will create a reconfiguration of service provision locally, to meet the demand that is expressed by individual learners? Whether it can respond to personal demand for particular educational opportunities is the key to whether the university for industry proposal will make a difference. How will the university project influence that provision, either through learning centres or existing institutions?", "EditedTextHTML": "I suspect that, from the way in which Mr Morrison is addressing what has been said, he may have dealt with the points that I raised. However, I would like him to comment, either today or in writing afterwards, on one specific point that I raised. Will he explain how the university for industry project will create a reconfiguration of service provision locally, to meet the demand that is expressed by individual learners? Whether it can respond to personal demand for particular educational opportunities is the key to whether the university for industry proposal will make a difference. How will the university project influence that provision, either through learning centres or existing institutions?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:00:40.118999+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C709963", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 13.0, "ContributionID": 709963, "EditedText": "I refer to the issue that Mr Canavan touched on. Will there be an opportunity for the minister to reflect on any of the objective 2 allocations that have been made? I raise this matter because representations have been made to me by the University of Abertay in Dundee, which makes an enormous contribution to the wider Tayside economy. However, because of its location and the demarcation of the maps, the university is excluded from many of the access routes to the objective 2 programmes. Has the minister heard the university's representations and does he have any response that would assist a university that will have its ability to continue to contribute to the Tayside economy restricted by the demarcation of the maps?", "EditedTextHTML": "I refer to the issue that Mr Canavan touched on. Will there be an opportunity for the minister to reflect on any of the objective 2 allocations that have been made? I raise this matter because representations have been made to me by the University of Abertay in Dundee, which makes an enormous contribution to the wider Tayside economy. However, because of its location and the demarcation of the maps, the university is excluded from many of the access routes to the objective 2 programmes. Has the minister heard the university's representations and does he have any response that would assist a university that will have its ability to continue to contribute to the Tayside economy restricted by the demarcation of the maps?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:28:33.8639665+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C710232", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish University for Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26977, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 588.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 588.0, "ID": 26977, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 598.0, "ContributionID": 710232, "EditedText": "I listened with great interest to the minister's comments about the publication that was issued yesterday. I took the trouble of trying to access the document as set out on the internet. I was surprised that, when I accessed the web address given in the document, I got a page saying: \"This is the default page for a website that has not yet been uploaded\". I now understand that that will not be done for another week. Does the minister think that it is a bit unusual for the Government to launch a document that raises expectations among a wider audience, encouraging people to use new technology to access information, when those who do so find that there is nothing there for them to find?", "EditedTextHTML": "I listened with great interest to the minister's comments about the publication that was issued yesterday. I took the trouble of trying to access the document as set out on the internet. I was surprised that, when I accessed the web address given in the document, I got a page saying:

\"This is the default page for a website that has not yet been uploaded\".

I now understand that that will not be done for another week. Does the minister think that it is a bit unusual for the Government to launch a document that raises expectations among a wider audience, encouraging people to use new technology to access information, when those who do so find that there is nothing there for them to find?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:33:46.8831798+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C710241", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish University for Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26977, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 588.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 588.0, "ID": 26977, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 617.0, "ContributionID": 710241, "EditedText": "I have made the foolish mistake of treading over the chief whip. I did not, however, specify whether I was referring to home or away supporters. Laughter. On a more serious note, I wish to point out the way in which this matter has been brought before Parliament. We have a glossy brochure here containing an interesting definition from the minister, Mr McLeish. I would have loved to see him explain at his press conference yesterday that he is determined to make it cool to learn. I am sure that he would have conveyed that point with great colour. He was involved in a press launch at Dunfermline Athletic yesterday, but he is not here today to put forward the arguments for the Scottish university for industry. Mrs Godman is here today, and some time ago she asked questions about the initiative to set up the Scottish university for industry. She asked specific questions about when the chief executive and the board would be appointed. Parliament has not had the courtesy of having that information conveyed to it first. It is important that ministers respect the bringing of announcements to Parliament to ensure that it is properly advised, not through the media, as continually happens. I give a warm welcome to Frank Pignatelli's appointment. He has a distinguished record in education and learning and I am quite sure that he will lead this initiative with energy and dynamism. In the time that remains, there are four key points that I want to make which set out the arguments for our amendment. The first point arises from the demand for learning. The material that we have seen on the university project identifies, correctly, that we must be more responsive to the demands for learning within our community than to the provision of courses that are made available by the institutions and the colleges. That is an important point of principle, but it is not clear to me how it will be changed by the Scottish university for industry concept. The minister said that the university will act as a broker to draw together information on learning and that it will not be a provider but will encourage new provision to emerge. That seems to be the key point of difference that the initiative must make; it must show how a strategy can be pursued successfully that will change the pattern of availability of learning at a local and community level. Nothing in the debate so far, or in the material that I have read, gives me confidence that there is a great deal of substance or knowledge on how that can be done. More learning centres in more accessible locations are fine, but how will they be staffed and run? I have not yet heard an explanation of how they will offer courses that meet tailored individual requirements. My second point relates to the concept of added value. If the initiative is to be successful, it must add value to the existing learning networks in Scotland. I suspect from what I have read in the documents that this is a repackaging or remarketing of the availability of existing provision. If that is not the case, I hope the ministers will make it clear today how the new and different provision will emerge. I detect high expectations within the community about what the initiative will deliver and how the content of the learning experience for individuals will be delivered. My third point concerns funding. I never grudge money that is added to public expenditure in Scotland, but a large proportion of the development expenditure that underpins the initiative comes from the national lottery new opportunities fund, a UK-determined programme that is outwith direct ministerial or Scottish control. I seek assurances from ministers that the £23 million commitment from that fund that has been mentioned is absolutely secure.Another important point on funding is that securing capital expenditure is no problem in many cases, largely because of the availability of lottery funding. We all experience that in our constituencies on a range of different projects. However, revenue funding is critical. I want to know from ministers the implications for revenue streams to guarantee that services can continue to be provided to local communities and whether the resource that is required for those revenue costs is leveraged out of existing hard-pressed further education budgets. As we all know, in all our communities those budgets are under much stress. The Presiding Officer has indicated that I should wind up, so I will make my last point on our amendment. In the programme for government document, the Government states: \"We will establish the Scottish University for Industry in the year 2000.\" I warmly support that target and am sure that the Government will achieve it, but I would like to know a little more about what impact the Government thinks that measure will have on the Scottish economy and learning environment. In the same document, the Government states that by 2002 it \"will ensure that more part-time students and students from low income families have access to further and higher education\". I would like to know how many more and how that will be achieved. Performance measurements will have to be in place if we are to know whether the expenditure of public resources has been effective. Mr Stephen said that much had to be done on the Scottish university for industry project. I am glad he said that, because I must express concern that progress has not been quite as swift as we might have hoped. I detected that that concern was at the root of Mrs Godman's question to Parliament a few weeks ago, although I do not want to put words into her mouth. We need a clear strategy, soon, to deliver the expectations that the Government has raised. I move amendment S1M-227.1 to motion S1M-227, to insert at end, \"and requires that the project to establish a Scottish University for Industry must clearly establish that value is being added by the project to existing provision and that adequate performance measurement be undertaken to enable the Parliament to judge the effectiveness of this initiative.\"", "EditedTextHTML": "I have made the foolish mistake of treading over the chief whip. I did not, however, specify whether I was referring to home or away supporters. [Laughter.]

On a more serious note, I wish to point out the way in which this matter has been brought before Parliament. We have a glossy brochure here containing an interesting definition from the minister, Mr McLeish. I would have loved to see him explain at his press conference yesterday that he is determined to make it cool to learn. I am sure that he would have conveyed that point with great colour.

He was involved in a press launch at Dunfermline Athletic yesterday, but he is not here today to put forward the arguments for the Scottish university for industry. Mrs Godman is here today, and some time ago she asked questions about the initiative to set up the Scottish university for industry. She asked specific questions about when the chief executive and the board would be appointed. Parliament has not had the courtesy of having that information conveyed to it first. It is important that ministers respect the bringing of announcements to Parliament to ensure that it is properly advised, not through the media, as continually happens.

I give a warm welcome to Frank Pignatelli's appointment. He has a distinguished record in education and learning and I am quite sure that he will lead this initiative with energy and dynamism.

In the time that remains, there are four key points that I want to make which set out the arguments for our amendment. The first point arises from the demand for learning. The material that we have seen on the university project identifies, correctly, that we must be more responsive to the demands for learning within our community than to the provision of courses that are made available by the institutions and the colleges. That is an important point of principle, but it is not clear to me how it will be changed by the Scottish university for industry concept.

The minister said that the university will act as a broker to draw together information on learning and that it will not be a provider but will encourage new provision to emerge. That seems to be the key point of difference that the initiative must make; it must show how a strategy can be pursued successfully that will change the pattern of availability of learning at a local and community level. Nothing in the debate so far, or in the material that I have read, gives me confidence that there is a great deal of substance or knowledge on how that can be done. More learning centres in more accessible locations are fine, but how will they be staffed and run? I have not yet heard an explanation of how they will offer courses that meet tailored individual requirements.

My second point relates to the concept of added value. If the initiative is to be successful, it must add value to the existing learning networks in Scotland. I suspect from what I have read in the documents that this is a repackaging or remarketing of the availability of existing provision. If that is not the case, I hope the ministers will make it clear today how the new and different provision will emerge. I detect high expectations within the community about what the initiative will deliver and how the content of the learning experience for individuals will be delivered.

My third point concerns funding. I never grudge money that is added to public expenditure in Scotland, but a large proportion of the development expenditure that underpins the initiative comes from the national lottery new opportunities fund, a UK-determined programme that is outwith direct ministerial or Scottish control. I seek assurances from ministers that the £23 million commitment from that fund that has been

mentioned is absolutely secure.

Another important point on funding is that securing capital expenditure is no problem in many cases, largely because of the availability of lottery funding. We all experience that in our constituencies on a range of different projects. However, revenue funding is critical. I want to know from ministers the implications for revenue streams to guarantee that services can continue to be provided to local communities and whether the resource that is required for those revenue costs is leveraged out of existing hard-pressed further education budgets. As we all know, in all our communities those budgets are under much stress.

The Presiding Officer has indicated that I should wind up, so I will make my last point on our amendment. In the programme for government document, the Government states:

\"We will establish the Scottish University for Industry in the year 2000.\"

I warmly support that target and am sure that the Government will achieve it, but I would like to know a little more about what impact the Government thinks that measure will have on the Scottish economy and learning environment. In the same document, the Government states that by 2002 it

\"will ensure that more part-time students and students from low income families have access to further and higher education\".

I would like to know how many more and how that will be achieved. Performance measurements will have to be in place if we are to know whether the expenditure of public resources has been effective.

Mr Stephen said that much had to be done on the Scottish university for industry project. I am glad he said that, because I must express concern that progress has not been quite as swift as we might have hoped. I detected that that concern was at the root of Mrs Godman's question to Parliament a few weeks ago, although I do not want to put words into her mouth. We need a clear strategy, soon, to deliver the expectations that the Government has raised.

I move amendment S1M-227.1 to motion S1M-227, to insert at end,

\"and requires that the project to establish a Scottish University for Industry must clearly establish that value is being added by the project to existing provision and that adequate performance measurement be undertaken to enable the Parliament to judge the effectiveness of this initiative.\"

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:33:46.8988034+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C710265", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish University for Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26977, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 588.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 588.0, "ID": 26977, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 670.0, "ContributionID": 710265, "EditedText": "Will Mr McNeil give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr McNeil give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:34:40.9579878+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709958", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Thursday 28 October 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26951, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26951, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 2.0, "ContributionID": 709958, "EditedText": "THE PRESIDING OFFICER opened the meeting at 09:31", "EditedTextHTML": "[THE PRESIDING OFFICER opened the meeting at 09:31]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709959", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 4.0, "ContributionID": 709959, "EditedText": "The first item of business this morning is a debate on motion S1M-230, in the name of Mr Jack McConnell, on European structural funds. The amendment in the name of Mr Tommy Sheridan has been withdrawn, so the only amendment that will be debated is the one in the name of Mr Alex Salmond.", "EditedTextHTML": "The first item of business this morning is a debate on motion S1M-230, in the name of Mr Jack McConnell, on European structural funds. The amendment in the name of Mr Tommy Sheridan has been withdrawn, so the only amendment that will be debated is the one in the name of Mr Alex Salmond.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C709961", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan (Falkirk West): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 9.0, "ContributionID": 709961, "EditedText": "On 8 October, the minister issued a statement that referred to the objective 2 proposals that are being submitted by the UK Government to the European Commission. How firm are those proposals? Are they still amendable? Are we just debating decisions that have already been made, or is this a genuine consultation exercise between the Executive and the Parliament?", "EditedTextHTML": "On 8 October, the minister issued a statement that referred to the objective 2 proposals that are being submitted by the UK Government to the European Commission. How firm are those proposals? Are they still amendable? Are we just debating decisions that have already been made, or is this a genuine consultation exercise between the Executive and the Parliament?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C709975", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 38.0, "ContributionID": 709975, "EditedText": "This is a point that needs to be pressed. Will Mr Crawford confirm that the Highlands and Islands is the only area in the European Union that did not meet the criteria but received a special package related to objective 1 status?", "EditedTextHTML": "This is a point that needs to be pressed. Will Mr Crawford confirm that the Highlands and Islands is the only area in the European Union that did not meet the criteria but received a special package related to objective 1 status?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C709965", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bruce Crawford (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 17.0, "ContributionID": 709965, "EditedText": "I wish to return to the point made by Dennis Canavan and John Swinney. The minister seemed to close the door to cases that MSPs may raise from now on relating to the map. What he said today is different from the information that he gave to the European Committee on 19 October, when he stated: \"It does no harm for members of Parliament to make representations on behalf of particular areas because if, for example, the Commission said that in general the map was agreeable but certain parts of it were unacceptable, that might open doors for other areas\".—Official Report, European Committee, 19 October 1999; c 206. At that time, the minister was encouraging members to involve themselves in a process, but I hear a different message today.", "EditedTextHTML": "I wish to return to the point made by Dennis Canavan and John Swinney. The minister seemed to close the door to cases that MSPs may raise from now on relating to the map. What he said today is different from the information that he gave to the European Committee on 19 October, when he stated:

\"It does no harm for members of Parliament to make representations on behalf of particular areas because if, for example, the Commission said that in general the map was agreeable but certain parts of it were unacceptable, that might open doors for other areas\".—[Official Report, European Committee, 19 October 1999; c 206.]

At that time, the minister was encouraging members to involve themselves in a process, but I hear a different message today.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C709966", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 19.0, "ContributionID": 709966, "EditedText": "I would be grateful if those who take the record of debates in this chamber would ensure that Mr Crawford receives a copy of my answers to the two interventions that I have taken. If he reads them carefully, he will see that, in both, I have made it absolutely clear that the statement that I gave to the European Committee still stands—if the Commission questions the areas that have already been submitted, representations made in the meantime will be taken on board by me and by the UK Government. It is important that I clarify that none of the areas in Scotland that previously received European funding will receive no funding in the years to come. All those areas that are not—or that will not be—on the new map are eligible for transition funding. Our job, as an Administration, as an Executive and as a Parliament, is to ensure that the transition funding is used to maximum effect. It is vital that we concentrate on that, not only today but in the weeks ahead. I make it clear to the plan teams that that should also be the case for them. Unfortunately the stipulation for a cluster of substantial areas means that not all needy wards in Scotland can be included. We will now be involved in the UK negotiations with the Commission and trust that the proposals will be found to be generally acceptable. There is no formal appeal process for areas that do not achieve objective 2 status, although—and I repeat this for the fourth time—I will take careful note of any representations that areas wish to make. Nevertheless, those areas that do not receive full coverage will be eligible for substantial transition funding. In future, that funding should be targeted on the highest priorities—those that will make the biggest impact when the plan teams for each area make their recommendations. I shall be looking for that; I am writing to the teams to highlight that objective as well as our other priorities. I make it clear to the Parliament that draft plans will not be accepted unless they meet those aims. The need to ensure that European resources are used as effectively and efficiently as possible is just as important as support for our policy objectives. The partnerships have worked well to deliver structural funds and to ensure that the policy is developed in an integrated manner to complement our national and local objectives. New pressures on funding and the establishment of the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Executive create an extra spur to take this policy integration one step further. There are parts of Scotland that are not on the proposed map but would receive transition funding—for example, Keith, Dudhope in Dundee, Craigmillar, the Raploch in Stirling, Girvan in Ayrshire or Barrhead in East Renfrewshire. Various methods of funding support—through the Scottish Executive, local authorities and other public agencies—should be targeted to ensure that those areas do not lose out in the longer term as a result of the new map. Rather, they should be supported by the added value of transition funding and be able to benefit from that. I am particularly keen that the basic principles of good value and financial propriety on which we insist in our domestic programmes are applied equally vigorously in European programmes. I know that the new European Commission attaches particular importance to the financial propriety of its new programmes and I confirm that the Scottish Executive will give it all the support that it requires to that end. I am keen for extra effort to be made in the new programme round to streamline the administrative arrangements for implementing the programmes. I have already announced that I would like to see smaller, more strategic monitoring committees for each programme. Those committees should focus on monitoring the quality and impact of the programmes and leave the detail to project selection subordinate bodies. For the first time in Scotland, I will include on those committees elected members representing local authorities and more representatives of the economic and social partners.", "EditedTextHTML": "I would be grateful if those who take the record of debates in this chamber would ensure that Mr Crawford receives a copy of my answers to the two interventions that I have taken. If he reads them carefully, he will see that, in both, I have made it absolutely clear that the statement that I gave to the European Committee still stands—if the Commission questions the areas that have already been submitted, representations

made in the meantime will be taken on board by me and by the UK Government.

It is important that I clarify that none of the areas in Scotland that previously received European funding will receive no funding in the years to come. All those areas that are not—or that will not be—on the new map are eligible for transition funding. Our job, as an Administration, as an Executive and as a Parliament, is to ensure that the transition funding is used to maximum effect. It is vital that we concentrate on that, not only today but in the weeks ahead. I make it clear to the plan teams that that should also be the case for them.

Unfortunately the stipulation for a cluster of substantial areas means that not all needy wards in Scotland can be included. We will now be involved in the UK negotiations with the Commission and trust that the proposals will be found to be generally acceptable. There is no formal appeal process for areas that do not achieve objective 2 status, although—and I repeat this for the fourth time—I will take careful note of any representations that areas wish to make.

Nevertheless, those areas that do not receive full coverage will be eligible for substantial transition funding. In future, that funding should be targeted on the highest priorities—those that will make the biggest impact when the plan teams for each area make their recommendations. I shall be looking for that; I am writing to the teams to highlight that objective as well as our other priorities. I make it clear to the Parliament that draft plans will not be accepted unless they meet those aims.

The need to ensure that European resources are used as effectively and efficiently as possible is just as important as support for our policy objectives. The partnerships have worked well to deliver structural funds and to ensure that the policy is developed in an integrated manner to complement our national and local objectives. New pressures on funding and the establishment of the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Executive create an extra spur to take this policy integration one step further.

There are parts of Scotland that are not on the proposed map but would receive transition funding—for example, Keith, Dudhope in Dundee, Craigmillar, the Raploch in Stirling, Girvan in Ayrshire or Barrhead in East Renfrewshire. Various methods of funding support—through the Scottish Executive, local authorities and other public agencies—should be targeted to ensure that those areas do not lose out in the longer term as a result of the new map. Rather, they should be supported by the added value of transition funding and be able to benefit from that.

I am particularly keen that the basic principles of good value and financial propriety on which we insist in our domestic programmes are applied equally vigorously in European programmes. I know that the new European Commission attaches particular importance to the financial propriety of its new programmes and I confirm that the Scottish Executive will give it all the support that it requires to that end. I am keen for extra effort to be made in the new programme round to streamline the administrative arrangements for implementing the programmes. I have already announced that I would like to see smaller, more strategic monitoring committees for each programme. Those committees should focus on monitoring the quality and impact of the programmes and leave the detail to project selection subordinate bodies. For the first time in Scotland, I will include on those committees elected members representing local authorities and more representatives of the economic and social partners.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709969", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 25.0, "ContributionID": 709969, "EditedText": "Minister, you are now into injury time. I am happy to allow it because of the number of interventions that you have taken, but it is now time to wind up.", "EditedTextHTML": "Minister, you are now into injury time. I am happy to allow it because of the number of interventions that you have taken, but it is now time to wind up.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709996", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 81.0, "ContributionID": 709996, "EditedText": "Order.", "EditedTextHTML": "Order.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2029E47P167C709973", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Henry, Hugh", "ID": 2029, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Hugh Henry", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Hugh Henry (Paisley South) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 34.0, "ContributionID": 709973, "EditedText": "Does Mr Crawford recognise that one of the reasons that the Highlands and Islands lost out was its growing prosperity and that under the rules it would not have qualified for anything, so the UK Government negotiated an allocation despite the Highlands and Islands not meeting the criteria?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does Mr Crawford recognise that one of the reasons that the Highlands and Islands lost out was its growing prosperity and that under the rules it would not have qualified for anything, so the UK Government negotiated an allocation despite the Highlands and Islands not meeting the criteria?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C709977", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 42.0, "ContributionID": 709977, "EditedText": "Mr Crawford did not want to answer my first question, so I will ask a different one. Will he confirm that as a result of the new package of structural funds across the European Union, and the changing economic circumstances of all the nations in the EU, the amount of money that Scotland receives will go down over the coming seven years, and that that means there will be more money in the Scottish budget, not less? He is painting a distortion of the true picture.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Crawford did not want to answer my first question, so I will ask a different one. Will he confirm that as a result of the new package of structural funds across the European Union, and the changing economic circumstances of all the nations in the EU, the amount of money that Scotland receives will go down over the coming seven years, and that that means there will be more money in the Scottish budget, not less? He is painting a distortion of the true picture.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C709983", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 55.0, "ContributionID": 709983, "EditedText": "I know that SNP members have difficulty understanding some of the finances of the Executive in this Parliament. Perhaps Mr Davidson could confirm to the Parliament, so that it does not have to come from my mouth, how the Barnett formula operates and how Scotland receives increases or decreases in our allocations.", "EditedTextHTML": "I know that SNP members have difficulty understanding some of the finances of the Executive in this Parliament. Perhaps Mr Davidson could confirm to the Parliament, so that it does not have to come from my mouth, how the Barnett formula operates and how Scotland receives increases or decreases in our allocations.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C709984", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Davidson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 57.0, "ContributionID": 709984, "EditedText": "I am always happy to help the Minister for Finance to do his job correctly. If he will have patience, I will come on to that. I will not just pick up bits and pieces, but try to get a clear thrust across, as the Presiding Officer is anxious that none of us wastes the Parliament's time. I ask the minister for a categorical assurance that the committees of the Parliament will be fully and regularly briefed on the roll-out of those programmes, so that they can scrutinise the part played by all the partners in those programmes. We must pay more attention here than is paid in Westminster to the way that Parliament is involved and the way that information flows through to us, so that we can constructively co-operate on behalf of the people of Scotland rather than wait to pick up comments made outwith Parliament, which is often what happens down south. The minister suggested earlier that he would keep us briefed. I will continue to remind him of that promise. This point is especially important as enlargement of the European Union will inevitably lead to a continuing reduction in funding for the UK from those funds, assuming that we continue to make the progress that we made during the Conservative years in government, which we hope will be continued. We must accept the message that Scotland has been given notice and a breathing space to prepare for the day when regional funds will no longer be an external panacea for inactivity or failure on the part of any future Scottish Administration or its agencies. Over its first term, this Parliament must take responsibility for preparing for the day when the UK will be better placed than many of its European neighbours and will no longer qualify for current levels of support. We must focus better on building the infrastructure for the future and must use this window of opportunity to use the next few years, especially as we have transition funding, to ensure that we put down a rock on which we can build stability and sustainability for the Scottish economy of the future. We have contributed a lot of money to Europe over the past few years. We are net contributors of about £3 billion, and that is part of a package that we have been party to for a long time. The previous Conservative Administration was fully signed up to enlargement, as is the current Blair Administration. We may have differences over the amount of involvement that Europe has in our internal affairs but we accept that Scotland has had a reasonable settlement in the past—and I use the word reasonable—with regard to those funds. We can argue over delivery and detail, but the UK has received more than £10 billion over the last five years. Under five out of the previous six objectives, the UK, and especially Scotland, has done well in the amount of support it has received. Sensitive and focused use of the funds, coupled with our positive management of the UK economy, has left Great Britain in a stronger position than many of our European neighbours. I pay credit to the Minister for Finance for recognising the golden legacy that we passed on to him.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am always happy to help the Minister for Finance to do his job correctly. If he will have patience, I will come on to that. I will not just pick up bits and pieces, but try to get a clear thrust across, as the Presiding Officer is anxious that none of us wastes the Parliament's time.

I ask the minister for a categorical assurance that the committees of the Parliament will be fully and regularly briefed on the roll-out of those programmes, so that they can scrutinise the part played by all the partners in those programmes. We must pay more attention here than is paid in Westminster to the way that Parliament is involved and the way that information flows through to us, so that we can constructively co-operate on behalf of the people of Scotland rather than wait to pick up comments made outwith Parliament, which is often what happens down south. The minister suggested earlier that he would keep us briefed. I will continue to remind him of that promise.

This point is especially important as enlargement of the European Union will inevitably lead to a continuing reduction in funding for the UK from those funds, assuming that we continue to make the progress that we made during the Conservative years in government, which we hope will be continued. We must accept the message that Scotland has been given notice and a breathing space to prepare for the day when regional funds will no longer be an external panacea for inactivity or failure on the part of any future Scottish Administration or its agencies.

Over its first term, this Parliament must take responsibility for preparing for the day when the UK will be better placed than many of its European neighbours and will no longer qualify for current levels of support. We must focus better on building the infrastructure for the future and must use this window of opportunity to use the next few years, especially as we have transition funding, to ensure that we put down a rock on which we can build stability and sustainability for the Scottish economy of the future.

We have contributed a lot of money to Europe over the past few years. We are net contributors of about £3 billion, and that is part of a package that we have been party to for a long time. The previous Conservative Administration was fully signed up to enlargement, as is the current Blair Administration. We may have differences over the amount of involvement that Europe has in our internal affairs but we accept that Scotland has had a reasonable settlement in the past—and I use the word reasonable—with regard to those funds. We can argue over delivery and detail, but the UK has received more than £10 billion over the last five years. Under five out of the previous six objectives, the UK, and especially Scotland, has done well in the amount of support it has received. Sensitive and focused use of the funds, coupled with our positive management of the UK economy, has left Great Britain in a stronger position than many of our European neighbours. I pay credit to the Minister for Finance for recognising the golden legacy that we passed on to him.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C709986", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Davidson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 61.0, "ContributionID": 709986, "EditedText": "Be brief, Mr Rumbles, as time is pressing.", "EditedTextHTML": "Be brief, Mr Rumbles, as time is pressing.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2140E187P335C709987", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Rumbles, Mike", "ID": 2140, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Rumbles", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Rumbles: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 63.0, "ContributionID": 709987, "EditedText": "On the previous two occasions on which I have intervened, Mr Davidson has suffered from terrible amnesia about the effect of the previous Conservative Government on farming. He now seems to be taking all the credit on this issue. Does Mr Davidson always want to refer to the past record of the Conservative Government?", "EditedTextHTML": "On the previous two occasions on which I have intervened, Mr Davidson has suffered from terrible amnesia about the effect of the

previous Conservative Government on farming. He now seems to be taking all the credit on this issue. Does Mr Davidson always want to refer to the past record of the Conservative Government?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C709989", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Keith Raffan (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 67.0, "ContributionID": 709989, "EditedText": "We are not stabbing you in the back, but in the front. Your front is so exposed.", "EditedTextHTML": "We are not stabbing you in the back, but in the front. Your front is so exposed.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C709992", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Davidson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 73.0, "ContributionID": 709992, "EditedText": "If we were to follow the SNP's line, we would miss out on the opportunity to co-operate with the rest of the UK, which has the ability to negotiate reasonably—I use the word reasonably, because it is a negotiation—in Europe.", "EditedTextHTML": "If we were to follow the SNP's line, we would miss out on the opportunity to co-operate with the rest of the UK, which has the ability to negotiate reasonably—I use the word reasonably, because it is a negotiation—in Europe.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C709995", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bruce Crawford: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 79.0, "ContributionID": 709995, "EditedText": "It is very difficult to get riled up about this man, as he is so polite. Laughter. However, he will not disarm me that easily. I am interested in some of the statements thatwe have just heard about our position on Europe, and that of the Conservatives. I want to find out from the member where he is coming from on this issue. At the moment, there seem to be four different camps in the Conservative party with regard to Europe. We have Heseltine and Clarke, who want to be part of the euro and do not want to renegotiate—", "EditedTextHTML": "It is very difficult to get riled up about this man, as he is so polite. [Laughter.] However, he will not disarm me that easily.

I am interested in some of the statements that

we have just heard about our position on Europe, and that of the Conservatives. I want to find out from the member where he is coming from on this issue. At the moment, there seem to be four different camps in the Conservative party with regard to Europe. We have Heseltine and Clarke, who want to be part of the euro and do not want to renegotiate—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C710001", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Davidson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 91.0, "ContributionID": 710001, "EditedText": "I will take the member's word for that.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will take the member's word for that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C710004", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 97.0, "ContributionID": 710004, "EditedText": "On a point of order. Is there a time limit on front-bench speeches today?", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. Is there a time limit on front-bench speeches today?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710005", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 99.0, "ContributionID": 710005, "EditedText": "Yes. I have already told Mr Davidson to wind up. However, he has taken interventions.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes. I have already told Mr Davidson to wind up. However, he has taken interventions.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C710006", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Davidson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 101.0, "ContributionID": 710006, "EditedText": "That is very kind of you, Sir David. I will wind up—I thought that I had started doing so before Mr Raffan interrupted.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is very kind of you, Sir David. I will wind up—I thought that I had started doing so before Mr Raffan interrupted.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1901E57P277C710013", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Allan", "ID": 1901, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Cunninghame North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Allan Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Allan Wilson (Cunninghame North) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 117.0, "ContributionID": 710013, "EditedText": "I rise to support the motion and to deal with some of the points that the amendment raises and to which Bruce Crawford did not refer. I commend the settlement, which sets out the total structural funds that are likely to apply to Scotland. A little over a year ago, the West of Scotland European Consortium and North Ayrshire Council were predicting a substantial reduction in European funding that would seriously curtail their activities. Fortunately, that situation has not arisen, due to the favourable settlement that was arrived at after negotiation between the various parties. It is right that the motion looks to the future. It is also right that it expresses an intent, in preparing for the new round of structural funds programmes in consultation with local and national partners throughout Scotland, to ensure that the new plans for Scotland complement the policy priorities in the programme for government. That new round must target areas of need and prioritise targets in those areas. In my constituency, the islands of Arran—with which I know the minister will be familiar—and Cumbrae qualify for objective 1 funding. I take the opportunity that today's debate affords to comment on the consultation process in the Highlands and Islands. I welcome the political involvement in the programme's implementation and recommend that local authorities be fully represented. The political involvement redresses the democratic deficit and enables local authorities to provide substantial match funding for the programmes. I support the continuation of the partnership executive as the implementing mechanism for the programme. The principle of partnership is fundamental to the success of the programme, as is a strong role for local area groups in the development of projects. The programme executive in the Highlands should become a company limited by guarantee, as has happened in other programme areas. I also recommend the decentralisation of programme implementation from national and regional centres. That will help to achieve internal cohesion in the Highlands and Islands and will allow more equal access to information and resources. I further recommend a greater simplification and transparency of the programme application process, with a two-tier application process—in principle and detailed—and clear information to applicants on reasons for project refusal. How do we manage the transition period between the 1997 to 1999 programmes and the 2000 to 2006 programmes? Failure to do so properly will cause problems of cash flow for organisations involved in the implementation of the programmes. There are slightly different problems in different objective areas, but the prolongation until 30 June 2000 that was agreed with the Scottish Executive, though welcome, might not go far enough. If we do not work out a plan and tell people about it, organisations that recruit on a continuous basis will face huge problems and might have to reduce capacity. Training programmes cannot be treated like water from a tap—something to be turned on and off. A solution would be to treat 2000 as a one-off year zero and guarantee to underwrite the risk for existing capacity, making longer-term decisions for the 2000 to 2006 period. There is a precedent in section 10. The costs would be small, since much will be funded and only six or eight months' extra funding would be needed, because of the prolongation. That would keep options about the future of the programme open for much longer.", "EditedTextHTML": "I rise to support the motion and to deal with some of the points that the amendment raises and to which Bruce Crawford did not refer. I commend the settlement, which sets out the total structural funds that are likely to apply to Scotland.

A little over a year ago, the West of Scotland European Consortium and North Ayrshire Council were predicting a substantial reduction in European funding that would seriously curtail their activities. Fortunately, that situation has not arisen, due to the favourable settlement that was arrived at after negotiation between the various parties.

It is right that the motion looks to the future. It is also right that it expresses an intent, in preparing for the new round of structural funds programmes in consultation with local and national partners throughout Scotland, to ensure that the new plans for Scotland complement the policy priorities in the programme for government.

That new round must target areas of need and prioritise targets in those areas. In my constituency, the islands of Arran—with which I know the minister will be familiar—and Cumbrae qualify for objective 1 funding.

I take the opportunity that today's debate affords to comment on the consultation process in the Highlands and Islands. I welcome the political involvement in the programme's implementation

and recommend that local authorities be fully represented. The political involvement redresses the democratic deficit and enables local authorities to provide substantial match funding for the programmes.

I support the continuation of the partnership executive as the implementing mechanism for the programme. The principle of partnership is fundamental to the success of the programme, as is a strong role for local area groups in the development of projects.

The programme executive in the Highlands should become a company limited by guarantee, as has happened in other programme areas. I also recommend the decentralisation of programme implementation from national and regional centres. That will help to achieve internal cohesion in the Highlands and Islands and will allow more equal access to information and resources. I further recommend a greater simplification and transparency of the programme application process, with a two-tier application process—in principle and detailed—and clear information to applicants on reasons for project refusal.

How do we manage the transition period between the 1997 to 1999 programmes and the 2000 to 2006 programmes? Failure to do so properly will cause problems of cash flow for organisations involved in the implementation of the programmes.

There are slightly different problems in different objective areas, but the prolongation until 30 June 2000 that was agreed with the Scottish Executive, though welcome, might not go far enough. If we do not work out a plan and tell people about it, organisations that recruit on a continuous basis will face huge problems and might have to reduce capacity. Training programmes cannot be treated like water from a tap—something to be turned on and off.

A solution would be to treat 2000 as a one-off year zero and guarantee to underwrite the risk for existing capacity, making longer-term decisions for the 2000 to 2006 period. There is a precedent in section 10. The costs would be small, since much will be funded and only six or eight months' extra funding would be needed, because of the prolongation. That would keep options about the future of the programme open for much longer.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2029E47P167C710015", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Henry, Hugh", "ID": 2029, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Hugh Henry", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Hugh Henry (Paisley South) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 122.0, "ContributionID": 710015, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1878E208P502C710016", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Dr Winnie", "ID": 1878, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Winnie Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 124.0, "ContributionID": 710016, "EditedText": "Not until I have finished my argument. The Highlands and Islands had objective 1 status because of its uniqueness. We have 90 inhabited islands, a figure with which only Greece can compete. Our gross domestic product was 76 per cent of the European Union average—1 per cent off the figure that is required to qualify for objective 1 status. In the Highland Convention's debates, every regional council and local enterprise company in the area argued brilliantly the case for retaining objective 1 status. There is no satisfaction among those bodies that it was not retained. We were unique in that we were only 1 per cent off. No other applicant was in that situation. The representatives of the Scottish Office who attended the Highland Convention thought that we might retain the status if the European Commission used its powers of flexibility. We were reasonably optimistic, as such a move would not open the floodgates—the GDPs of Sweden and Finland were more than 80 per cent of the European average. They did not use the peripherality argument but relied on the special deal that they had struck as new member states. We tried to argue our case along with Sweden and Finland and I think that it would have been to their advantage to have the peripherality criteria established: as we pointed out, when they lose objective 1 status, they will get only transitional money. When our transitional money runs out, that is the end of all assistance. I do not apologise for arguing that we should be entitled to assistance. We had a debate in this Parliament about the Mallaig road. Many members could talk about terrible roads of which they are aware, as well as other massive infrastructure problems. When Mr McLeish spoke to the European Parliament's Committee on Legal Affairs and the Internal Market, which came to Edinburgh, he said that, during negotiations in which the Scottish interest dominated—such as those to do with fisheries—the Scottish minister would have the lead negotiating position. I am interested to hear how John Home Robertson's meeting with the Fisheries Council went. I was appalled to hear that although Scotland's legal system is distinct from that of England, we were not invited to the Tampere justice meeting. It does not look as though big brother is very good at negotiating on our behalf. The Tories tell us that they did well in negotiations with Europe, but Mrs Thatcher's Government did not even ask for the Highlands and Islands to be included in objective 1—that is a matter of public record—even though the European Commission was in favour of the area's being included. She did not want to match the funds that would become available. The Tories did not do well.", "EditedTextHTML": "Not until I have finished my argument.

The Highlands and Islands had objective 1 status because of its uniqueness. We have 90 inhabited islands, a figure with which only Greece can compete. Our gross domestic product was 76 per cent of the European Union average—1 per cent off the figure that is required to qualify for objective 1 status.

In the Highland Convention's debates, every regional council and local enterprise company in the area argued brilliantly the case for retaining objective 1 status. There is no satisfaction among those bodies that it was not retained. We were unique in that we were only 1 per cent off. No other applicant was in that situation. The representatives of the Scottish Office who attended the Highland Convention thought that we might retain the status if the European Commission used its powers of flexibility.

We were reasonably optimistic, as such a move would not open the floodgates—the GDPs of Sweden and Finland were more than 80 per cent of the European average. They did not use the peripherality argument but relied on the special deal that they had struck as new member states. We tried to argue our case along with Sweden and Finland and I think that it would have been to their advantage to have the peripherality criteria established: as we pointed out, when they lose

objective 1 status, they will get only transitional money. When our transitional money runs out, that is the end of all assistance.

I do not apologise for arguing that we should be entitled to assistance. We had a debate in this Parliament about the Mallaig road. Many members could talk about terrible roads of which they are aware, as well as other massive infrastructure problems.

When Mr McLeish spoke to the European Parliament's Committee on Legal Affairs and the Internal Market, which came to Edinburgh, he said that, during negotiations in which the Scottish interest dominated—such as those to do with fisheries—the Scottish minister would have the lead negotiating position. I am interested to hear how John Home Robertson's meeting with the Fisheries Council went. I was appalled to hear that although Scotland's legal system is distinct from that of England, we were not invited to the Tampere justice meeting. It does not look as though big brother is very good at negotiating on our behalf.

The Tories tell us that they did well in negotiations with Europe, but Mrs Thatcher's Government did not even ask for the Highlands and Islands to be included in objective 1—that is a matter of public record—even though the European Commission was in favour of the area's being included. She did not want to match the funds that would become available. The Tories did not do well.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1873E89P171C710017", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jackson, Dr Sylvia", "ID": 1873, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Stirling" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sylvia Jackson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Sylvia Jackson (Stirling) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 127.0, "ContributionID": 710017, "EditedText": "I will speak about Stirling, but will try to draw general points, which I have made in the European Committee, from the specific case. Following the publication of the Scottish Executive's recommendations for objective 2 coverage, the local newspaper in Stirling spoke of the bad news. It said that Stirling Council was still reeling from the blow of losing much of its assistance and reiterated that the deprived areas of Raploch, Corton and Culsenhove have all missed out. The three most disadvantaged wards in Stirling—Gowanhill, Ballangeich and Borestone— have unemployment figures of 14.7 per cent, 12.1 per cent and 11.2 per cent, respectively, yet they are all excluded from objective 2 funding. It is even more disturbing that wards in a neighbouring council area, with unemployment figures of only 2.2 per cent and 2.6 per cent, have qualified for objective 2 funding. Stirling's neediest area, Castleview, which includes the Ballengeich and Gowanhill wards, is recognised as being among the worst 5 per cent of deprived areas in Scotland. It includes parts that fall within the worst 1 per cent, yet it has been excluded. At the meeting of the European Committee on 19 October, the Minister for Finance, Mr Jack McConnell, explained that a ward group approach had been used in drawing up the objective 2 map. That approach has obviously worked against the most needy wards in Stirling. The same is true of Edinburgh, Dundee and parts of the Falkirk Council area. Of the 101 wards in the worst 10 per cent in Scotland in terms of unemployment, 16 have been excluded from objective 2 funding. Six of those 16 are within the worst 5 per cent in Scotland in terms of unemployment. Together, the 16 wards cover 62,000 people. That is not all. There are communities in Stirling that qualify for assisted area status because they have been recognised as areas of extreme urban deprivation, but they are excluded from objective 2 funding. Where is the joined-up thinking there? Furthermore, those disadvantaged wards in Stirling are attempting to recover from years of unemployment and decline and have relied on current and past programmes using objective 2 funding, which has allowed the development of social inclusion projects essential to the regeneration programme. Local initiatives have worked well, using an integrated strategy throughout Stirling but focusing on areas of greatest need. Limited access to those funds via transitional funding will have a serious impact on the success of urban regeneration projects. My message is simple: it is imperative that the Scottish Executive looks at devising a strategy to support—at the very least—the 16 disadvantaged wards to enable them to continue with the regeneration projects that are already on stream. I look for assurance from the Executive and—in particular—the Minister for Finance.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will speak about Stirling, but will try to draw general points, which I have made in the European Committee, from the specific case.

Following the publication of the Scottish Executive's recommendations for objective 2 coverage, the local newspaper in Stirling spoke of the bad news. It said that Stirling Council was still reeling from the blow of losing much of its assistance and reiterated that the deprived areas of Raploch, Corton and Culsenhove have all missed out.

The three most disadvantaged wards in Stirling—Gowanhill, Ballangeich and Borestone— have unemployment figures of 14.7 per cent, 12.1 per cent and 11.2 per cent, respectively, yet they are all excluded from objective 2 funding.

It is even more disturbing that wards in a neighbouring council area, with unemployment figures of only 2.2 per cent and 2.6 per cent, have qualified for objective 2 funding. Stirling's neediest area, Castleview, which includes the Ballengeich and Gowanhill wards, is recognised as being among the worst 5 per cent of deprived areas in Scotland. It includes parts that fall within the worst 1 per cent, yet it has been excluded.

At the meeting of the European Committee on 19 October, the Minister for Finance, Mr Jack McConnell, explained that a ward group approach had been used in drawing up the objective 2 map. That approach has obviously worked against the most needy wards in Stirling. The same is true of Edinburgh, Dundee and parts of the Falkirk Council area. Of the 101 wards in the worst 10 per cent in Scotland in terms of unemployment, 16 have been excluded from objective 2 funding. Six of those 16 are within the worst 5 per cent in Scotland in terms of unemployment. Together, the 16 wards cover 62,000 people.

That is not all. There are communities in Stirling that qualify for assisted area status because they have been recognised as areas of extreme urban deprivation, but they are excluded from objective 2 funding. Where is the joined-up thinking there? Furthermore, those disadvantaged wards in Stirling are attempting to recover from years of unemployment and decline and have relied on current and past programmes using objective 2 funding, which has allowed the development of social inclusion projects essential to the regeneration programme. Local initiatives have worked well, using an integrated strategy throughout Stirling but focusing on areas of greatest need. Limited access to those funds via transitional funding will have a serious impact on the success of urban regeneration projects.

My message is simple: it is imperative that the Scottish Executive looks at devising a strategy to support—at the very least—the 16 disadvantaged wards to enable them to continue with the regeneration projects that are already on stream. I look for assurance from the Executive and—in particular—the Minister for Finance.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C710019", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan (Falkirk West): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 132.0, "ContributionID": 710019, "EditedText": "I shall begin on a positive note and welcome the inclusion of eight wards in my constituency in the Government's proposals for objective 2 status. I am particularly pleased about the inclusion of Bonnybridge, as I protested strongly to the First Minister and the Secretary of State for Scotland about its exclusion from the assisted areas map. The fact that Bonnybridge is now included in the objective 2 map reinforces the case for its inclusion in the assisted areas map. However, I would like to present a broader viewof the situation in the Falkirk Council area, compared with Scotland as a whole. According to the Government, 40 per cent of the Scottish population will be covered by eligibility for objective 2 assistance. In the Falkirk Council area, less than 25 per cent of the population will be covered, despite the fact that unemployment— particularly youth unemployment—is higher than the Scottish average. There must be 800 or 900 wards in Scotland, yet the Dawson ward in my constituency, which has the 19th highest unemployment rate in the country, is excluded from the objective 2 list. Unemployment is not the only indicator of social exclusion. If we take the proportion of people on income support, standardised mortality rates, crime rates and the number of people lacking educational or vocational qualifications as other indicators, there are several other wards in the Falkirk Council area that have a high rate of social exclusion. I mention the Victoria, Ladysmill and Dunipace areas in my constituency; Cathy Peattie could cite the former mining area of Bo'ness in hers. I do not understand why those areas have been excluded. There seems to be no logical explanation. In his statement earlier this month, the Minister for Finance, Mr Jack McConnell, said: \"I am confident that the\"objective 2 proposals\"focus on areas of real need in Scotland.\"I do not share the minister's confidence, because some areas of very real need have been excluded. I believe that the Government has reached decisions using information that is not up to date. Over the past year, the Falkirk area has suffered the loss of well over 1,000 jobs, with closures or threatened closures at Wrangler, Baird Clothing and Russell Athletic, and redundancies at BP-Amoco. Falkirk was the birthplace of the Scottish industrial revolution, but over the years there has been a massive decline in traditional industries, and a resultant loss of jobs, especially in manufacturing industry. The area and its people still have great potential, but it will never be completely fulfilled if areas of deprivation are excluded from objective 2 status. I appeal to the minister to think again—even at this late date— and try to ensure a fairer deal for people in the Falkirk area.", "EditedTextHTML": "I shall begin on a positive note and welcome the inclusion of eight wards in my constituency in the Government's proposals for objective 2 status. I am particularly pleased about the inclusion of Bonnybridge, as I protested strongly to the First Minister and the Secretary of State for Scotland about its exclusion from the assisted areas map. The fact that Bonnybridge is now included in the objective 2 map reinforces the case for its inclusion in the assisted areas map.

However, I would like to present a broader view

of the situation in the Falkirk Council area, compared with Scotland as a whole. According to the Government, 40 per cent of the Scottish population will be covered by eligibility for objective 2 assistance. In the Falkirk Council area, less than 25 per cent of the population will be covered, despite the fact that unemployment— particularly youth unemployment—is higher than the Scottish average. There must be 800 or 900 wards in Scotland, yet the Dawson ward in my constituency, which has the 19th highest unemployment rate in the country, is excluded from the objective 2 list.

Unemployment is not the only indicator of social exclusion. If we take the proportion of people on income support, standardised mortality rates, crime rates and the number of people lacking educational or vocational qualifications as other indicators, there are several other wards in the Falkirk Council area that have a high rate of social exclusion. I mention the Victoria, Ladysmill and Dunipace areas in my constituency; Cathy Peattie could cite the former mining area of Bo'ness in hers.

I do not understand why those areas have been excluded. There seems to be no logical explanation. In his statement earlier this month, the Minister for Finance, Mr Jack McConnell, said:

\"I am confident that the\"

objective 2 proposals

\"focus on areas of real need in Scotland.\"

I do not share the minister's confidence, because some areas of very real need have been excluded. I believe that the Government has reached decisions using information that is not up to date. Over the past year, the Falkirk area has suffered the loss of well over 1,000 jobs, with closures or threatened closures at Wrangler, Baird Clothing and Russell Athletic, and redundancies at BP-Amoco.

Falkirk was the birthplace of the Scottish industrial revolution, but over the years there has been a massive decline in traditional industries, and a resultant loss of jobs, especially in manufacturing industry. The area and its people still have great potential, but it will never be completely fulfilled if areas of deprivation are excluded from objective 2 status. I appeal to the minister to think again—even at this late date— and try to ensure a fairer deal for people in the Falkirk area.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1754E157P235C710020", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Peattie, Cathy", "ID": 1754, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Cathy Peattie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Cathy Peattie (Falkirk East) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 135.0, "ContributionID": 710020, "EditedText": "I agree with Sylvia Jackson and Dennis Canavan, and will almost repeat everything Dennis said. Falkirk has been on the objective 2 map, and much valuable work has taken place. The new map seems to exclude a range of services and things that are going on in Falkirk. The fact that coalfield areas are not included is worrying, considering that—as Dennis said—only last week we heard that more than 200 jobs are being lost at Russell Athletic. That is worrying for an area of Bo'ness where unemployment is more than 10 per cent. In some areas of Falkirk, unemployment is 15.5 per cent. Many of Falkirk's social inclusion areas have not been included, in spite of very good practice in partnership working. Projects involving the local enterprise company, the voluntary sector and councils are delivering in social inclusion areas. They include the routes to employment project, which helps people who are long-term unemployed to get back to work. That can involve finding someone transport to a place of work. It can also involve finding them something to wear for an interview. For somebody who has been unemployed for more than a year, that can be quite difficult. The map fails to recognise some practical things that are happening at local level. I am concerned that a valuable partnership in Falkirk is being threatened. As Dennis said, for a while there has been concern about the problem of unemployment in Falkirk East. BP-Amoco is downsizing by 400 jobs, but that could lead to another 2,000 job losses in the Grangemouth area. Russell Athletic is shedding more than 200 jobs, while last week we heard that Baird Clothing in Grangemouth is under threat, which would mean the loss of another 500 jobs. The Minister for Finance's statement is little comfort to Falkirk East. Will he agree to meet Falkirk Council and other representatives of the area to discuss the issue as a matter of urgency?", "EditedTextHTML": "I agree with Sylvia Jackson and Dennis Canavan, and will almost repeat everything Dennis said. Falkirk has been on the objective 2 map, and much valuable work has taken place. The new map seems to exclude a range of services and things that are going on in Falkirk. The fact that coalfield areas are not included is worrying, considering that—as Dennis said—only last week we heard that more than 200 jobs are being lost at Russell Athletic. That is worrying for an area of Bo'ness where unemployment is more than 10 per cent.

In some areas of Falkirk, unemployment is 15.5 per cent. Many of Falkirk's social inclusion areas have not been included, in spite of very good practice in partnership working. Projects involving the local enterprise company, the voluntary sector and councils are delivering in social inclusion areas. They include the routes to employment project, which helps people who are long-term unemployed to get back to work. That can involve finding someone transport to a place of work. It can also involve finding them something to wear for an interview. For somebody who has been unemployed for more than a year, that can be quite difficult. The map fails to recognise some practical things that are happening at local level. I am concerned that a valuable partnership in Falkirk is being threatened.

As Dennis said, for a while there has been concern about the problem of unemployment in Falkirk East. BP-Amoco is downsizing by 400 jobs, but that could lead to another 2,000 job losses in the Grangemouth area. Russell Athletic is shedding more than 200 jobs, while last week we heard that Baird Clothing in Grangemouth is under threat, which would mean the loss of another 500 jobs.

The Minister for Finance's statement is little comfort to Falkirk East. Will he agree to meet Falkirk Council and other representatives of the area to discuss the issue as a matter of urgency?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1850E185P354C710027", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Radcliffe, Nora", "ID": 1850, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Gordon" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nora Radcliffe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nora Radcliffe (Gordon) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 153.0, "ContributionID": 710027, "EditedText": "A good settlement has been won for Scotland, but all regions must be treated equally and objectively to achieve a fair distribution of the funding. It must be recognised that fragile rural economies that currently benefit from funding will require continued support. The proposed map for objective 2 assistance was greeted with dismay and disbelief in Keith and Strathisla and in west Gordon. Although those areas may benefit from transitional funding, the case for continued objective 2 funding is strong. If we consider the criterion of sparse population, and take percentages of population outwith settlements of 10,000 people, the figure for the Highlands and Islands is 70.6 per cent and that for Moray is 77.2 per cent. Aberdeenshire has an even sparser population—84.7 per cent of its population is outwith settlements of 10,000. The Borders is included because of low incomes. Gross domestic product per head in the Borders is £9,041; in Moray, £8,779; and in Aberdeenshire, £7,926. The economic output of Aberdeenshire and Moray on 1996 figures was below the Scottish average. The north-east is often regarded as affluentbecause of oil. The oil bonanza, such as it was, was welcome, but it was centred largely on Aberdeen. The overall figures for the north-east mask pockets of real deprivation. Dependence on the oil and gas sector is likely to cause problems, as oil employment in the north-east is expected to fall by as much as 10,000 in the next 10 years, with an obvious and severe impact. That is already happening.", "EditedTextHTML": "A good settlement has been won for Scotland, but all regions must be treated equally and objectively to achieve a fair distribution of the funding. It must be recognised that fragile rural economies that currently benefit from funding will require continued support. The proposed map for objective 2 assistance was greeted with dismay and disbelief in Keith and Strathisla and in west Gordon. Although those areas may benefit from transitional funding, the case for continued objective 2 funding is strong.

If we consider the criterion of sparse population, and take percentages of population outwith settlements of 10,000 people, the figure for the Highlands and Islands is 70.6 per cent and that for Moray is 77.2 per cent. Aberdeenshire has an even sparser population—84.7 per cent of its population is outwith settlements of 10,000.

The Borders is included because of low incomes. Gross domestic product per head in the Borders is £9,041; in Moray, £8,779; and in Aberdeenshire, £7,926. The economic output of Aberdeenshire and Moray on 1996 figures was below the Scottish average.

The north-east is often regarded as affluent

because of oil. The oil bonanza, such as it was, was welcome, but it was centred largely on Aberdeen. The overall figures for the north-east mask pockets of real deprivation. Dependence on the oil and gas sector is likely to cause problems, as oil employment in the north-east is expected to fall by as much as 10,000 in the next 10 years, with an obvious and severe impact. That is already happening.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C710032", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 164.0, "ContributionID": 710032, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1916E38P70C710035", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Ben", "ID": 1916, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ben Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ben Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 170.0, "ContributionID": 710035, "EditedText": "That comes from a party whose policy until 1983 was to remove itself completely from Europe, and which would therefore be in no position to negotiate anything. MEMBERS: \"Not true.\" Mr Hague is quite within his rights to state his position on beef.", "EditedTextHTML": "That comes from a party whose policy until 1983 was to remove itself completely from Europe, and which would therefore be in no position to negotiate anything. [MEMBERS: \"Not true.\"] Mr Hague is quite within his rights to state his position on beef.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C710036", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon (Argyll and Bute) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 172.0, "ContributionID": 710036, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C710039", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bruce Crawford rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 179.0, "ContributionID": 710039, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2142E142P230C710040", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Watson, Mike", "ID": 2142, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Cathcart" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Watson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mike Watson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 181.0, "ContributionID": 710040, "EditedText": "I am sorry, Bruce. Under the constraints, I do not have time to give way. Time for interventions is not taken into account and added on. Over the years, some organisations—I do not have time to name them—have developed valuable projects, particularly through the Castlemilk Economic Development Agency in conjunction with Langside College's Glenwood campus. I am concerned at the effect that the new boundaries will have on such organisations. I am also concerned that details of any transitional funding that presumably will be available to areas such as the Castlemilk ward have not been specified. Well-respected organisations such as Heatwise, which does much work through structural funds assistance, are also concerned. Finally, I would like further information about how the decisions on ward boundaries were made and about whether those decisions are final. Is there room for more consultation with local authorities such as Falkirk? If so, I want Glasgow to be included in such consultation. I hope that we will find a way of not simply allowing the EC to be the only organisation that can change the proposals, because they seem to have severe flaws, which MSPs of every party have recognised.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry, Bruce. Under the constraints, I do not have time to give way. Time for interventions is not taken into account and added on.

Over the years, some organisations—I do not have time to name them—have developed valuable projects, particularly through the

Castlemilk Economic Development Agency in conjunction with Langside College's Glenwood campus. I am concerned at the effect that the new boundaries will have on such organisations.

I am also concerned that details of any transitional funding that presumably will be available to areas such as the Castlemilk ward have not been specified. Well-respected organisations such as Heatwise, which does much work through structural funds assistance, are also concerned.

Finally, I would like further information about how the decisions on ward boundaries were made and about whether those decisions are final. Is there room for more consultation with local authorities such as Falkirk? If so, I want Glasgow to be included in such consultation. I hope that we will find a way of not simply allowing the EC to be the only organisation that can change the proposals, because they seem to have severe flaws, which MSPs of every party have recognised.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1926E190P479C710042", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Adam, Brian", "ID": 1926, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Adam", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Brian Adam (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 186.0, "ContributionID": 710042, "EditedText": "It should come as no surprise that I also rise to make some special pleading. In particular, I want to talk about several different aspects of the issue. The first is the general problem of the removal of objective 2 status, or what was objective 5b status, for a number of rural areas in north Tayside, parts of rural Perthshire such as Blairgowrie and the parts of west Aberdeenshire—and Huntly in particular—that Nora Radcliffe mentioned. I support her claims for Keith and Strathisla, which is an issue that I shall develop further. I also want to highlight the Government's stated intention to use the funds to support existing programmes such as social inclusion partnerships at a time when Aberdeen City Council's claim for its partnership has been excluded. Furthermore, I echo comments made by John Swinney and Ben Wallace about Dundee, which is trying hard and is winning new business because of its technology park, its medipark and its universities. However, the way in which the boundaries were drawn in Dundee has excluded certain wards in key areas of the city. My colleague Shona Robison has written to the Executive with her concerns about the situation and I support her in that. Members will forgive me if I relate some of my personal history. I was born in Newmill in the Strathisla ward, and many members of my family still live in that area. My mother worked in Kynoch's woollen mills, and uncles, aunts and cousins worked in both Kynoch's and Laidlaw's woollen mills in Keith. The Conservatives will be sympathetic to that as one of the members of the Kynoch family eventually ended up as a parliamentarian.", "EditedTextHTML": "It should come as no surprise that I also rise to make some special pleading. In particular, I want to talk about several different aspects of the issue. The first is the general problem of the removal of objective 2 status, or what was objective 5b status, for a number of rural areas in north Tayside, parts of rural Perthshire such as Blairgowrie and the parts of west Aberdeenshire—and Huntly in particular—that Nora Radcliffe mentioned. I support her claims for Keith and Strathisla, which is an issue that I shall develop further.

I also want to highlight the Government's stated intention to use the funds to support existing programmes such as social inclusion partnerships at a time when Aberdeen City Council's claim for its partnership has been excluded. Furthermore, I echo comments made by John Swinney and Ben Wallace about Dundee, which is trying hard and is winning new business because of its technology park, its medipark and its universities. However, the way in which the boundaries were drawn in Dundee has excluded certain wards in key areas of the city. My colleague Shona Robison has written to the Executive with her concerns about the situation and I support her in that.

Members will forgive me if I relate some of my personal history. I was born in Newmill in the Strathisla ward, and many members of my family still live in that area. My mother worked in Kynoch's woollen mills, and uncles, aunts and cousins worked in both Kynoch's and Laidlaw's woollen mills in Keith. The Conservatives will be sympathetic to that as one of the members of the Kynoch family eventually ended up as a parliamentarian.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1752E75P296C710046", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jamieson, Cathy", "ID": 1752, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Cathy Jamieson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Cathy Jamieson (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 195.0, "ContributionID": 710046, "EditedText": "I recognise the difficulties that the Executive faces in trying to draw a map that will suit everyone, and I also recognise that not everyone will be happy with the final outcome. I welcome the fact that Jack McConnell came to the European Committee and was prepared to engage in a dialogue. I will not, however, apologise to Jack for saying things that he has heard me say several times, and about which I have written to him on several occasions. I am glad that Tommy Sheridan's amendment has been withdrawn. I do not know whether that is because Tommy is not here to move the amendment or because he has recognised that it was not helpful. It might, however, have been interesting to hear the socialist argument for putting forward the more prosperous areas in south Ayrshire for objective 2 status when the former coalfield areas in Fife were not put forward. In this issue, it is not helpful to pit one disadvantaged community against another. It is about ensuring—as the Executive has stated— that the funds are targeted at the areas that need them. It would be remiss of me not to mention myconstituency. The Cumnock and Doon Valley part of Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley has done relatively well out of the objective 2 map, but it was a great disappointment to me that the Girvan area in particular, and also Maybole and South Carrick, were not included in the map. It is all the more disappointing because on 8 October, when I attended the opening of the new Carrick buildings of Ayr College in Girvan, Henry McLeish acknowledged the difficult situation for Girvan. He acknowledged that there is high unemployment and, indeed, that unemployment rates there are among the highest in the UK—not just in Scotland. He also acknowledged the value of the social inclusion partnership there; it is disappointing that the announcement of the objective 2 map coincided with that opening. All credit is due to the local press—The Carrick Gazette & Maybole News—which tried to give balanced coverage of the positive news. That building project was partially funded by European funding in partnership with South Ayrshire Council. We should look to what is positive and I want Jack, in his summing up, to address the points that I am making. Regarding the representations that we have made on behalf of South Ayrshire Council, the inclusion of some wards—the former coalfield areas of Annbank, Mossblown, Coylton and Kincaidston—which were not originally to be included has been achieved, and I have worked closely with the council to achieve that. I want recognition that the Girvan area meets all the criteria for objective 2 status in terms of rural deprivation and industrial decline and in relation to former fishing areas such as Dunure, Maidens and Girvan harbour.", "EditedTextHTML": "I recognise the difficulties that the Executive faces in trying to draw a map that will suit everyone, and I also recognise that not everyone will be happy with the final outcome. I welcome the fact that Jack McConnell came to the European Committee and was prepared to engage in a dialogue. I will not, however, apologise to Jack for saying things that he has heard me say several times, and about which I have written to him on several occasions.

I am glad that Tommy Sheridan's amendment has been withdrawn. I do not know whether that is because Tommy is not here to move the amendment or because he has recognised that it was not helpful. It might, however, have been interesting to hear the socialist argument for putting forward the more prosperous areas in south Ayrshire for objective 2 status when the former coalfield areas in Fife were not put forward.

In this issue, it is not helpful to pit one disadvantaged community against another. It is about ensuring—as the Executive has stated— that the funds are targeted at the areas that need them.

It would be remiss of me not to mention my

constituency. The Cumnock and Doon Valley part of Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley has done relatively well out of the objective 2 map, but it was a great disappointment to me that the Girvan area in particular, and also Maybole and South Carrick, were not included in the map. It is all the more disappointing because on 8 October, when I attended the opening of the new Carrick buildings of Ayr College in Girvan, Henry McLeish acknowledged the difficult situation for Girvan. He acknowledged that there is high unemployment and, indeed, that unemployment rates there are among the highest in the UK—not just in Scotland. He also acknowledged the value of the social inclusion partnership there; it is disappointing that the announcement of the objective 2 map coincided with that opening.

All credit is due to the local press—The Carrick Gazette & Maybole News—which tried to give balanced coverage of the positive news. That building project was partially funded by European funding in partnership with South Ayrshire Council. We should look to what is positive and I want Jack, in his summing up, to address the points that I am making.

Regarding the representations that we have made on behalf of South Ayrshire Council, the inclusion of some wards—the former coalfield areas of Annbank, Mossblown, Coylton and Kincaidston—which were not originally to be included has been achieved, and I have worked closely with the council to achieve that.

I want recognition that the Girvan area meets all the criteria for objective 2 status in terms of rural deprivation and industrial decline and in relation to former fishing areas such as Dunure, Maidens and Girvan harbour.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1865E219P509C710049", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "White, Sandra", "ID": 1865, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sandra White", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Sandra White (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 202.0, "ContributionID": 710049, "EditedText": "I am surprised at the number of Labour members who appear to be supporting the SNP amendment and I would like to ask them whether that is in fact their intention. Mr McConnell has already said that he is pleased to announce the programme, but most Labour members who have spoken have asked him to think again about the map. They should, perhaps, think about supporting our amendment, or Mr McConnell could think about taking the SNP amendment on board. I would like to concentrate on the Glasgow area. Mike Watson—or Lord Watson—is not in the chamber at the moment, but I agree with most of what he said. Glasgow City Council carried out a case study that mentioned that 10 of the poorest areas of the city are excluded from the proposed objective 2 areas. Those areas include Pennilee, Castlemilk—which Lord Watson mentioned— Govanhill, Dennistoun North and Dennistoun South, Glasgow West, North Maryhill, Shettleston and Carmyle. Those areas of deprivation have been removed from the objective 2 map but are in the worst 10 per cent of areas in Scotland. The Department of Trade and Industry has said that, based on their need, they should be included. Why have they not been included? I would like to mention joined-up thinking and continuity. Dennistoun, Cardonald and Mount Vernon are areas of opportunity for business parks, for example, and they have been excluded. Why? Broomhill, Summerston, Mount Vernon, Pennilee, Cardonald, Castlemilk and Newlands are included as assisted areas, but will not receive structural funds. There is no joined-up thinking in relation to structural funding in Mr McConnell's programme. We are all supposedly fighting for our areas—as we were elected to do. I am fighting for the Glasgow area, but I would like to point out that the SNP feels that the Scottish people have been hard done by because of the way in which the map has been drawn up and presented. I put it to Mr McConnell and the Executive that they and successive Westminster Governments have pulled the wool over the eyes of the Scottish people, who have been told that they are getting extra money when they are not. We are the only oil-producing nation in Europe and we must go cap in hand to Europe and Westminster to ask for money that is rightfully ours. That is the case that the SNP makes—a case that must be put to the Scottish people. Members can all put forward their individual cases as they were elected to do, but we are also elected to highlight the anomalies that the Executive and Westminster have not addressed for successive years. We are not here with a begging bowl—we are a country in our own right and we should get the money that we deserve.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am surprised at the number of Labour members who appear to be supporting the SNP amendment and I would like to ask them whether that is in fact their intention. Mr McConnell has already said that he is pleased to announce the programme, but most Labour members who have spoken have asked him to think again about the map. They should, perhaps, think about supporting our amendment, or Mr McConnell could think about taking the SNP amendment on board.

I would like to concentrate on the Glasgow area. Mike Watson—or Lord Watson—is not in the chamber at the moment, but I agree with most of what he said. Glasgow City Council carried out a case study that mentioned that 10 of the poorest areas of the city are excluded from the proposed objective 2 areas. Those areas include Pennilee, Castlemilk—which Lord Watson mentioned— Govanhill, Dennistoun North and Dennistoun South, Glasgow West, North Maryhill, Shettleston and Carmyle.

Those areas of deprivation have been removed from the objective 2 map but are in the worst 10 per cent of areas in Scotland. The Department of Trade and Industry has said that, based on their need, they should be included. Why have they not been included?

I would like to mention joined-up thinking and continuity. Dennistoun, Cardonald and Mount Vernon are areas of opportunity for business parks, for example, and they have been excluded. Why? Broomhill, Summerston, Mount Vernon, Pennilee, Cardonald, Castlemilk and Newlands are included as assisted areas, but will not receive structural funds. There is no joined-up thinking in relation to structural funding in Mr McConnell's programme.

We are all supposedly fighting for our areas—as we were elected to do. I am fighting for the Glasgow area, but I would like to point out that the SNP feels that the Scottish people have been hard done by because of the way in which the map has been drawn up and presented. I put it to Mr McConnell and the Executive that they and successive Westminster Governments have pulled the wool over the eyes of the Scottish people, who have been told that they are getting extra money when they are not.

We are the only oil-producing nation in Europe and we must go cap in hand to Europe and Westminster to ask for money that is rightfully ours. That is the case that the SNP makes—a case that must be put to the Scottish people. Members can all put forward their individual cases as they were elected to do, but we are also elected to highlight the anomalies that the Executive and Westminster have not addressed for successive years.

We are not here with a begging bowl—we are a country in our own right and we should get the money that we deserve.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1782E69P279C710050", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Oldfather, Irene", "ID": 1782, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Cunninghame South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Irene Oldfather", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Irene Oldfather (Cunninghame South) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 205.0, "ContributionID": 710050, "EditedText": "I am pleased to be able to speak in the debate, and I am grateful to the Deputy Presiding Officer for fitting me in. Before I begin my comments, I would like to pick up on a point that was made by Brian Adam regarding flexibility and inflexibility, fixed time scales of programmes, and the difficulties that that creates in funding. Will the minister say something about that? That point was made vociferously by the West of Scotland European Consortium, where we argued in favour of a fund that would deal with asymmetric regional shocks. Will the minister also say something about that? It is important to reflect on the fact that the key objective of European structural funds is to advance social and economic cohesion, thus reducing regional disparities throughout the European Union. While I am delighted that my area qualifies for and continues to benefit from objective 2 funding, that is a measure of the chronic and deep-seated structural problems from which the area suffers. Despite significant European and other funding over the previous programme period, unemployment remains higher than the national average and there is a dependence on declining industries. I am aware that developing a knowledge base and modernising our economy is part of the solution to social exclusion, and the agencies in my area are committed to those objectives and to working in partnership to achieve them. The extension of structural funds is a vital boost to help my area continue its much-needed economic regeneration. One of the major difficulties in the Ayrshire economy is the small number of small and medium-sized enterprises. I do not believe that that is because the people of north Ayrshire are less enterprising or less innovative than people in other parts of Scotland. It is an understandable reaction to the severe structural problems faced by the area. Substantial business support programmes must accompany development finance, so that potential can be fulfilled. Perhaps I can mention projects such as the recently announced management upskilling programme in Ayrshire, which gives management training to the owners of small and medium-sized enterprises. The project is assisted by European structural funds—it should be built on and developed. Small and medium-sized enterprises could benefit further from business support programmes that are aimed at strengthening supplier and customer links with inward investors. I hope that this round of structural funding will prioritise such programmes in concert with Government schemes such as the business growth unit. The structural problems facing north Ayrshire and many other parts of Scotland do not affect businesses alone. They affect the aspirations of the people, which is why it is vital that the structural funds bolster measures such as the social inclusion partnerships and deliver social and economic regeneration throughout our country. The social economy has as much to contribute to communities as business has. The three towns initiative in my area is another example of a scheme that works well and is supported by structural funds. It has provided training for local people, concentrating on things such as child care, furniture recycling and research skills. Such projects offer people the opportunity to give something back to the local community, fostering in the individual a sense of citizenship and stakeholding, and in the community a sense of social inclusion and unity. To tackle the problems in our most deprived communities, the philosophy of partnership and joined-up government must be carried through. It is clear that some areas of Scotland, such as my constituency, are still suffering substantial structural difficulties and, with them, unemployment and social exclusion. European structural funding can make a difference and can offer renewed hope to those areas in partnership with joined-up thinking and a local approach. I call on members to support the motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am pleased to be able to speak in the debate, and I am grateful to the Deputy Presiding Officer for fitting me in.

Before I begin my comments, I would like to pick up on a point that was made by Brian Adam regarding flexibility and inflexibility, fixed time scales of programmes, and the difficulties that that creates in funding. Will the minister say something about that? That point was made vociferously by the West of Scotland European Consortium, where we argued in favour of a fund that would deal with asymmetric regional shocks. Will the minister also say something about that?

It is important to reflect on the fact that the key objective of European structural funds is to advance social and economic cohesion, thus reducing regional disparities throughout the European Union. While I am delighted that my area qualifies for and continues to benefit from objective 2 funding, that is a measure of the chronic and deep-seated structural problems from which the area suffers. Despite significant European and other funding over the previous programme period, unemployment remains higher than the national average and there is a dependence on declining industries.

I am aware that developing a knowledge base and modernising our economy is part of the solution to social exclusion, and the agencies in my area are committed to those objectives and to working in partnership to achieve them. The extension of structural funds is a vital boost to help my area continue its much-needed economic regeneration.

One of the major difficulties in the Ayrshire economy is the small number of small and medium-sized enterprises. I do not believe that that is because the people of north Ayrshire are less enterprising or less innovative than people in other parts of Scotland. It is an understandable reaction to the severe structural problems faced by the area.

Substantial business support programmes must accompany development finance, so that potential can be fulfilled. Perhaps I can mention projects such as the recently announced management upskilling programme in Ayrshire, which gives management training to the owners of small and medium-sized enterprises. The project is assisted by European structural funds—it should be built on and developed.

Small and medium-sized enterprises could benefit further from business support programmes that are aimed at strengthening supplier and customer links with inward investors. I hope that this round of structural funding will prioritise such programmes in concert with Government schemes such as the business growth unit.

The structural problems facing north Ayrshire and many other parts of Scotland do not affect businesses alone. They affect the aspirations of the people, which is why it is vital that the structural funds bolster measures such as the social inclusion partnerships and deliver social and economic regeneration throughout our country.

The social economy has as much to contribute to communities as business has. The three towns initiative in my area is another example of a scheme that works well and is supported by structural funds. It has provided training for local people, concentrating on things such as child care, furniture recycling and research skills. Such projects offer people the opportunity to give something back to the local community, fostering in the individual a sense of citizenship and stakeholding, and in the community a sense of social inclusion and unity.

To tackle the problems in our most deprived communities, the philosophy of partnership and joined-up government must be carried through. It is clear that some areas of Scotland, such as my constituency, are still suffering substantial structural difficulties and, with them, unemployment and social exclusion. European structural funding can make a difference and can offer renewed hope to those areas in partnership with joined-up thinking and a local approach. I call on members to support the motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2234E7P20C710053", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Aitken, Bill", "ID": 2234, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bill Aitken", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bill Aitken (Glasgow) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 213.0, "ContributionID": 710053, "EditedText": "This debate is highly technical, but it is important, as we are dealing with a large amount of money. It is important to maximise the impact that the funding will have, so it is understandable that one cannot please all of the people all of the time. I listened with considerable sympathy to the views that have been expressed by representatives of the areas that have lost out, but it is vital to consider the big picture. Having said that, I understand and empathise with those who feel that the present criteria and the formula for the funding calculations are not appropriate. When reducing the test bed down to a local government ward, we cannot possibly get a strategic overview. After all, when is one ward entirely economically dependent on another? I have to confess that it was with some cynicism that I watched Jack McConnell, that honours graduate of the Mandelsonian institute of spin, putting forward the Executive's proposals on the basis that it was Executive or UK Government money that was being injected into the economy. He was very clever and did not actually say that, but the implication was firmly there. This has been an exercise in salesmanship that I do not think has quite come off. It certainly did not come off for the SNP, which has lodged a rather carping and negative amendment. Let us face the realities. There is a big picture but it is a diminishing one.", "EditedTextHTML": "This debate is highly technical, but it is important, as we are dealing with a large amount of money.

It is important to maximise the impact that the funding will have, so it is understandable that one cannot please all of the people all of the time. I listened with considerable sympathy to the views that have been expressed by representatives of the areas that have lost out, but it is vital to consider the big picture. Having said that, I understand and empathise with those who feel that the present criteria and the formula for the funding calculations are not appropriate. When reducing the test bed down to a local government ward, we cannot possibly get a strategic overview. After all, when is one ward entirely economically dependent on another?

I have to confess that it was with some cynicism that I watched Jack McConnell, that honours graduate of the Mandelsonian institute of spin, putting forward the Executive's proposals on the basis that it was Executive or UK Government money that was being injected into the economy. He was very clever and did not actually say that, but the implication was firmly there. This has been an exercise in salesmanship that I do not think has quite come off. It certainly did not come off for the SNP, which has lodged a rather carping and negative amendment.

Let us face the realities. There is a big picture but it is a diminishing one.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C710054", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bruce Crawford: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 215.0, "ContributionID": 710054, "EditedText": "I hear what Mr Aitken says about carping, but does he agree that so far almost all members—including Conservative members—have backed the sentiment and spirit of the SNP amendment?", "EditedTextHTML": "I hear what Mr Aitken says about carping, but does he agree that so far almost all members—including Conservative members—have backed the sentiment and spirit of the SNP amendment?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2234E7P20C710057", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Aitken, Bill", "ID": 2234, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bill Aitken", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bill Aitken: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 221.0, "ContributionID": 710057, "EditedText": "There is no need to specify anything. The phraseology of the entire amendment and its negative attitude are indicative of the thought processes of the SNP. What should we be trying to achieve? Let us be honest about this. The European concept is one that is likely to grow in the years ahead. Members of the Conservative party want to be part of Europe, but certainly not run by it, and we recognise that, in time, the European dimension will increase. More and more countries are joining the European Community and that in itself will have an adverse effect on Scotland. Members of the SNP like to consider Scotland as equivalent to Ireland in the early 1980s. The Irish unmercifully exploited European funding— from their point of view, they did so successfully.", "EditedTextHTML": "There is no need to specify anything. The phraseology of the entire amendment and its negative attitude are indicative of the thought processes of the SNP.

What should we be trying to achieve? Let us be honest about this. The European concept is one that is likely to grow in the years ahead. Members of the Conservative party want to be part of Europe, but certainly not run by it, and we recognise that, in time, the European dimension will increase. More and more countries are joining the European Community and that in itself will have an adverse effect on Scotland.

Members of the SNP like to consider Scotland as equivalent to Ireland in the early 1980s. The Irish unmercifully exploited European funding— from their point of view, they did so successfully.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1878E208P502C710058", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Dr Winnie", "ID": 1878, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Winnie Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Winnie Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 223.0, "ContributionID": 710058, "EditedText": "Very successfully.", "EditedTextHTML": "Very successfully.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2234E7P20C710059", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Aitken, Bill", "ID": 2234, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bill Aitken", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bill Aitken: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 225.0, "ContributionID": 710059, "EditedText": "Very successfully indeed. The Irish were successful because, at that stage, their economy was very poor. With the emergence of the eastern European countries, other countries will come forward that are much poorer than Ireland, and significantly poorer than Scotland. Those countries, after all, did not have the benefit of being governed by a Conservative party which showed imagination and success in its economic policies and which greatly increased the benefits to the people of Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "Very successfully indeed. The Irish were successful because, at that stage, their economy was very poor. With the emergence of the eastern European countries, other countries will come forward that are much poorer than Ireland, and significantly poorer than Scotland. Those countries, after all, did not have the benefit of being governed by a Conservative party which showed imagination and success in its economic policies and which greatly increased the benefits to the people of Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C710060", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 227.0, "ContributionID": 710060, "EditedText": "We have heard Jack McConnell boasting that 40 per cent of the Scottish population are so poor that they will be covered by the measures—Scotland has one of the highest coverages in Europe. Is it not a total indictment of successive UK Governments' management—or mismanagement—of the Scottish economy that 40 per cent of our people are so poor that they have to be covered by the measures?", "EditedTextHTML": "We have heard Jack McConnell boasting that 40 per cent of the Scottish population are so poor that they will be covered by the measures—Scotland has one of the highest coverages in Europe. Is it not a total indictment of successive UK Governments' management—or mismanagement—of the Scottish economy that 40 per cent of our people are so poor that they have to be covered by the measures?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1878E208P502C710069", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Dr Winnie", "ID": 1878, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Winnie Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 247.0, "ContributionID": 710069, "EditedText": "Will Mr McConnell give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr McConnell give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C710071", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 251.0, "ContributionID": 710071, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710074", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fisheries Council", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26953, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 257.0, "ID": 26953, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 258.0, "ContributionID": 710074, "EditedText": "We turn now to the ministerial statement on the European Union Fisheries Council, which will last for about 20 minutes. Then we will come to the business motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "We turn now to the ministerial statement on the European Union Fisheries Council, which will last for about 20 minutes. Then we will come to the business motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2100E64P254C710075", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fisheries Council", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26953, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 257.0, "ID": 26953, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Home Robertson, John", "ID": 2100, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Lothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "John Home Robertson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs (Mr John Home Robertson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 261.0, "ContributionID": 710075, "EditedText": "I am pleased to have this opportunity to report to the Parliament on the outcome of the Fisheries Council meeting held on 26 October in Luxembourg. I attended the meeting as part of the UK team together with Elliot Morley, the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food for the UK Government. My attendance was of some constitutional significance. That was the first time that a Scottish Executive minister had attended a European Council meeting. I was welcomed by the chairman of the council, and I made useful preliminary contacts with other fisheries ministers. I intend to go to future Fisheries Council meetings, starting with those scheduled for 22 November and 16 December. However, the Executive does not intend to make a statement of this sort after every council. The council had extensive discussions about two important draft regulations. The first of those involves proposals for revising the marketing arrangements for fish and aquaculture products. The European Commission has proposed a wide-ranging revision of the fisheries marketing regime within its common fisheries policy. The Commission's proposal includes providing better consumer information through compulsory labelling of fish at retail level; supporting producer organisations and more detailed requirements for POs, including the need to prepare annual production plans; imposing tighter limits for payment for withdrawal of fish from the market; and the setting of permanent import tariff reductions, or suspensions, for fish species of importance to EU processors. On that final point, the position on herring is of key Scottish interest. Scottish fishermen are the main catchers of herring in the EU and the suspension of a tariff for herring could enable cheaper imports of herring into the Community. Unlike other areas where tariff suspensions are proposed, there is a Community production surplus in herring. The UK made the council aware of the vital importance of herring to the Scottish fishing industry and advised it that, from a Scottish perspective, it was important that herring is removed from the proposals for tariff suspension. Some importing of herring to the Community is unavoidable, but we need to ensure that that is closely managed with the smallest possible tariff quota that the market will bear. The council made some progress with that item but a number of detailed points remained unresolved. The council will resume consideration at its November meeting. A similar position was reached on the second major regulation relating to the reform of structural funds in the fisheries sector in the context of Agenda 2000. That proposal sets out the fisheries measures which can be given financial aid from 1 January 2000 under the financial instrument for fisheries guidance. The major sticking point is about the conditions under which public aid might be paid to support the building of new vessels. The Commission has proposed that such aid should be subject to a requirement that the capacity of any subsidised new boat should be 30 per cent less than the capacity of the vessel that is being replaced. I support that approach, which is the agreed UK line. The ratio is important to take account of the higher efficiency and greater catching power of new vessels. I know from my discussions with the fishing industry prior to the council that it understands the logic behind this measure. Also on the council agenda was an item on the future of fisheries relations with Morocco, a report on the cost-benefit analysis of third-country fisheries agreements and a Commission presentation about a regulation on closer dialogue with the fishing industry. The last of those is perhaps of greatest interest to this Parliament. I discussed that issue with the Scottish Fishermen's Federation before the council. We share its view that regional meetings should be a very important element in the Commission's dialogue with the fishing industry, and the Commission proposal has been remitted for further examination. I will ensure that Scottish fishermen's views are fully taken into account.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am pleased to have this opportunity to report to the Parliament on the outcome of the Fisheries Council meeting held on 26 October in Luxembourg.

I attended the meeting as part of the UK team together with Elliot Morley, the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food for the UK Government. My attendance was of some constitutional significance. That was the first time that a Scottish Executive minister had attended a European Council meeting. I was welcomed by the chairman of the council, and I made useful preliminary contacts with other fisheries ministers. I intend to go to future Fisheries Council meetings, starting with those scheduled for 22 November and 16 December. However, the Executive does not intend to make a statement of this sort after every council.

The council had extensive discussions about two important draft regulations. The first of those involves proposals for revising the marketing arrangements for fish and aquaculture products.

The European Commission has proposed a wide-ranging revision of the fisheries marketing regime within its common fisheries policy. The Commission's proposal includes providing better consumer information through compulsory labelling of fish at retail level; supporting producer organisations and more detailed requirements for POs, including the need to prepare annual production plans; imposing tighter limits for payment for withdrawal of fish from the market; and the setting of permanent import tariff reductions, or suspensions, for fish species of importance to EU processors.

On that final point, the position on herring is of key Scottish interest. Scottish fishermen are the main catchers of herring in the EU and the suspension of a tariff for herring could enable cheaper imports of herring into the Community. Unlike other areas where tariff suspensions are proposed, there is a Community production surplus in herring.

The UK made the council aware of the vital importance of herring to the Scottish fishing industry and advised it that, from a Scottish perspective, it was important that herring is removed from the proposals for tariff suspension. Some importing of herring to the Community is unavoidable, but we need to ensure that that is closely managed with the smallest possible tariff quota that the market will bear. The council made some progress with that item but a number of detailed points remained unresolved. The council will resume consideration at its November meeting.

A similar position was reached on the second major regulation relating to the reform of structural funds in the fisheries sector in the context of Agenda 2000. That proposal sets out the fisheries measures which can be given financial aid from 1 January 2000 under the financial instrument for fisheries guidance.

The major sticking point is about the conditions under which public aid might be paid to support the building of new vessels. The Commission has proposed that such aid should be subject to a requirement that the capacity of any subsidised new boat should be 30 per cent less than the capacity of the vessel that is being replaced. I support that approach, which is the agreed UK line. The ratio is important to take account of the higher efficiency and greater catching power of new vessels. I know from my discussions with the fishing industry prior to the council that it understands the logic behind this measure.

Also on the council agenda was an item on the future of fisheries relations with Morocco, a report on the cost-benefit analysis of third-country fisheries agreements and a Commission presentation about a regulation on closer dialogue with the fishing industry.

The last of those is perhaps of greatest interest to this Parliament. I discussed that issue with the Scottish Fishermen's Federation before the council. We share its view that regional meetings should be a very important element in the Commission's dialogue with the fishing industry, and the Commission proposal has been remitted for further examination. I will ensure that Scottish fishermen's views are fully taken into account.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2100E64P254C710077", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fisheries Council", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26953, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 257.0, "ID": 26953, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Home Robertson, John", "ID": 2100, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Lothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "John Home Robertson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Home Robertson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 265.0, "ContributionID": 710077, "EditedText": "I suspect that I would be trying the patience of the Parliament if I were to make statements on every single Fisheries Council meeting. We will, however, consider whether there is anything of substance to report. If there is anything that we judge needs to be reported to the Parliament, we will certainly do so. We will no doubt consider that further. Mr Lochhead makes a specific point about what authority I have as a UK fisheries minister at the council. Frankly, it is rather more than a minister from a nationalist Scotland would have. I spoke on behalf of the United Kingdom with the benefit of 10 votes in the Fisheries Council. If an independent Scotland were able to get admission to the European Union, the most it could hope to have is three votes. We have considerably more clout than Mr Lochhead could ever aspire to have. I spoke at the council and my presence was acknowledged. As the minister with the lion's share of responsibility for fisheries in the UK, I intend to use that authority in discussion with my colleagues at the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and at the council. Scotland has had the benefit of £30 million of expenditure under the FIFG programme over the last five years. We are keen that a successor instrument be put in place as soon as possible so that our industry can take full advantage of it.", "EditedTextHTML": "I suspect that I would be trying the patience of the Parliament if I were to make statements on every single Fisheries Council meeting. We will, however, consider whether there is anything of substance to report. If there is anything that we judge needs to be reported to the Parliament, we will certainly do so. We will no doubt consider that further.

Mr Lochhead makes a specific point about what authority I have as a UK fisheries minister at the council. Frankly, it is rather more than a minister from a nationalist Scotland would have. I spoke on behalf of the United Kingdom with the benefit of 10 votes in the Fisheries Council. If an independent Scotland were able to get admission to the European Union, the most it could hope to have is three votes. We have considerably more clout than Mr Lochhead could ever aspire to have.

I spoke at the council and my presence was acknowledged. As the minister with the lion's share of responsibility for fisheries in the UK, I intend to use that authority in discussion with my colleagues at the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and at the council.

Scotland has had the benefit of £30 million of expenditure under the FIFG programme over the last five years. We are keen that a successor instrument be put in place as soon as possible so that our industry can take full advantage of it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1840E82P158C710089", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fisheries Council", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26953, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 257.0, "ID": 26953, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macmillan, Maureen", "ID": 1840, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Maureen Macmillan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Maureen Macmillan (Highlands and Islands) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 289.0, "ContributionID": 710089, "EditedText": "I am sorry, I do not have a question.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry, I do not have a question.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710090", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fisheries Council", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26953, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 257.0, "ID": 26953, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 291.0, "ContributionID": 710090, "EditedText": "I am sorry. Your name was still on the screen, but that may be an electronic fault. I call Margaret Ewing.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry. Your name was still on the screen, but that may be an electronic fault. I call Margaret Ewing.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2100E64P254C710094", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fisheries Council", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26953, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 257.0, "ID": 26953, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Home Robertson, John", "ID": 2100, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Lothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "John Home Robertson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Home Robertson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 299.0, "ContributionID": 710094, "EditedText": "Certainly. I had some useful discussions with council colleagues on that issue. With the enlargement of the European Union, it will become increasingly difficult to manage the local details of the common fisheries policy. There is a strong case, which is being pursued by the entire UK delegation, including myself, for finding ways of working up regional discussions about the management of the North sea in which we, and our North sea neighbours, have the primary interest. My only word of caution on that is that if we have complete regional management for the North sea, there might also be complete regional management of the Mediterranean. Some overall control from the council is needed; I would not like the Mediterranean countries to have complete freedom to decide to increase the capacity of their fleet using our taxpayers' money. Regional management and discussions are important and we are pursuing that idea.", "EditedTextHTML": "Certainly. I had some useful discussions with council colleagues on that issue. With the enlargement of the European Union, it will become increasingly difficult to manage the local details of the common fisheries policy. There is a strong case, which is being pursued by the entire UK delegation, including myself, for finding ways of working up regional discussions about the management of the North sea in which we, and our North sea neighbours, have the primary interest.

My only word of caution on that is that if we have complete regional management for the North sea, there might also be complete regional management of the Mediterranean. Some overall control from the council is needed; I would not like the Mediterranean countries to have complete freedom to decide to increase the capacity of their fleet using our taxpayers' money. Regional management and discussions are important and we are pursuing that idea.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6701971+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710096", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fisheries Council", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26953, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 257.0, "ID": 26953, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 303.0, "ContributionID": 710096, "EditedText": "We cannot have a speech as this time is for questions.", "EditedTextHTML": "We cannot have a speech as this time is for questions.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6858246+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2188E70P92C710097", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fisheries Council", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26953, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 257.0, "ID": 26953, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harper, Robin", "ID": 2188, "PartyName": "Scottish Green Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Green", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robin Harper", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robin Harper: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 305.0, "ContributionID": 710097, "EditedText": "These are questions.", "EditedTextHTML": "These are questions.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6858246+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2100E64P254C710100", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fisheries Council", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26953, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 257.0, "ID": 26953, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Home Robertson, John", "ID": 2100, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Lothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "John Home Robertson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Home Robertson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 311.0, "ContributionID": 710100, "EditedText": "If Mr Harper were to have discussions with the fishing industry, he would establish that there have been significant cuts in capacity in Scotland, in the UK and across the European Union. Those cuts have been painful for the fleet, although rightly so, because the overriding principle must be to ensure the sustainability of fisheries. Lessons must be learned from the disasters that have happened in other parts of the world where whole fishing industries have been destroyed by overfishing. That point was made in the council—I made a passing reference to the Moroccan agreement. It is important when we negotiate agreements with other African countries that we ensure that their fisheries are sustainable. There is nothing justifiable about allowing European fleets to fish out stocks in other parts of the world. I therefore take Mr Harper's fundamental point that sustainability is an important principle and one to which we have signed up.", "EditedTextHTML": "If Mr Harper were to have discussions with the fishing industry, he would establish that there have been significant cuts in capacity in Scotland, in the UK and across the European Union. Those cuts have been painful for the fleet, although rightly so, because the overriding principle must be to ensure the sustainability of fisheries. Lessons must be learned from the disasters that have happened in other parts of the world where whole fishing industries have been destroyed by overfishing. That point was made in the council—I made a passing reference to the Moroccan agreement. It is important when we negotiate agreements with other African countries that we ensure that their fisheries are sustainable. There is nothing justifiable about allowing European fleets to fish out stocks in other parts of the world. I therefore take Mr Harper's fundamental point that sustainability is an important principle and one to which we have signed up.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6858246+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710101", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fisheries Council", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26953, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 257.0, "ID": 26953, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 313.0, "ContributionID": 710101, "EditedText": "I will take a couple more questions, as long as they are brief.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will take a couple more questions, as long as they are brief.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6858246+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C710102", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fisheries Council", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26953, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 257.0, "ID": 26953, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon (Argyll and Bute) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 315.0, "ContributionID": 710102, "EditedText": "Will the minister reflect on the damage that has been done to Scottish fishing interests and our wider interests in Europe by William Hague's extremely damaging argument that we should enter a tit-for-tat trade war with France over the illegal French beef ban? That position, which is supported by Scottish Tories here, is completely against Scotland's wider interests and threatens the destruction of—", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister reflect on the damage that has been done to Scottish fishing interests and our wider interests in Europe by William Hague's extremely damaging argument that we should enter a tit-for-tat trade war with France over the illegal French beef ban? That position, which is supported by Scottish Tories here, is completely against Scotland's wider interests and threatens the destruction of—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6858246+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2100E64P254C710105", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fisheries Council", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26953, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 257.0, "ID": 26953, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Home Robertson, John", "ID": 2100, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Lothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "John Home Robertson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Home Robertson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 321.0, "ContributionID": 710105, "EditedText": "Mr Glavany, the French agriculture and fisheries minister, was at the council, but I did not have an opportunity to talk to him about other issues. It is a little depressing to see the French delegation looking almost as, if not as, isolated as the United Kingdom delegation looked when the Conservative party was in power. Tit-for-tat trade wars are infantile and destructive.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Glavany, the French agriculture and fisheries minister, was at the council, but I did not have an opportunity to talk to him about other issues. It is a little depressing to see the French delegation looking almost as, if not as, isolated as the United Kingdom delegation

looked when the Conservative party was in power. Tit-for-tat trade wars are infantile and destructive.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6858246+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C710106", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fisheries Council", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26953, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 257.0, "ID": 26953, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr David Davidson (North-East Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 323.0, "ContributionID": 710106, "EditedText": "I will not respond to the minister's remark other than to say that some of the ministers in the Blair Government dare not listen to that comment. Fleet safety is an important issue. The Scottish fleet is, on average, about 28 years old. Fishing communities are concerned about the safety of their vessels. Will restrictions in fleet renewal keep boats below a size at which it is economically viable to maintain a fully trained engineer on board?", "EditedTextHTML": "I will not respond to the minister's remark other than to say that some of the ministers in the Blair Government dare not listen to that comment.

Fleet safety is an important issue. The Scottish fleet is, on average, about 28 years old. Fishing communities are concerned about the safety of their vessels. Will restrictions in fleet renewal keep boats below a size at which it is economically viable to maintain a fully trained engineer on board?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6858246+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2100E64P254C710107", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fisheries Council", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26953, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 257.0, "ID": 26953, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Home Robertson, John", "ID": 2100, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Lothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "John Home Robertson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Home Robertson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 325.0, "ContributionID": 710107, "EditedText": "My colleague Elliot Morley addressed that point in the council. Safety is obviously of paramount importance in an industry in which people work hard and in potentially dangerous circumstances. Every year there is an accident somewhere. Safety is therefore a high priority. Funding under the financial instrument should include provision for genuine safety improvements to boats. There are borderline issues, however. Aspects of investment can add to catching capacity. We have made it clear that we want to be able to help fishermen to improve safety on their vessels. That was done under the existing scheme and it is our intention that it should continue under the new scheme.", "EditedTextHTML": "My colleague Elliot Morley addressed that point in the council. Safety is obviously of paramount importance in an industry in which people work hard and in potentially dangerous circumstances. Every year there is an accident somewhere. Safety is therefore a high priority. Funding under the financial instrument should include provision for genuine safety improvements to boats. There are borderline issues, however. Aspects of investment can add to catching capacity. We have made it clear that we want to be able to help fishermen to improve safety on their vessels. That was done under the existing scheme and it is our intention that it should continue under the new scheme.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6858246+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2051E74P295C710109", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fisheries Council", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26953, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 257.0, "ID": 26953, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Welsh, Ian", "ID": 2051, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ayr" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ian Welsh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ian Welsh (Ayr) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 329.0, "ContributionID": 710109, "EditedText": "Is the minister aware of the outstanding success of the electronic fish market at Troon? How will the European Community address the key issues of quality and marketing in the fishing industry?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is the minister aware of the outstanding success of the electronic fish market at Troon? How will the European Community address the key issues of quality and marketing in the fishing industry?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6858246+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2100E64P254C710110", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fisheries Council", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26953, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 257.0, "ID": 26953, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Home Robertson, John", "ID": 2100, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Lothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "John Home Robertson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Home Robertson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 331.0, "ContributionID": 710110, "EditedText": "I commend my colleague's interest in this important subject. I had the opportunity to visit the new market at Troon not long ago. It is an excellent example of how to improve the quality of fish delivered to the market. In addition to labelling and other developments, it will improve the prospects for the fishing industry and the rewards for fishing communities. I pay tribute to everyone concerned in the innovative marketing scheme in Troon. It is the kind of thing that we want to see elsewhere.", "EditedTextHTML": "I commend my colleague's interest in this important subject. I had the opportunity to visit the new market at Troon not long ago. It is an excellent example of how to improve the quality of fish delivered to the market. In addition to labelling and other developments, it will improve the prospects for the fishing industry and the rewards for fishing communities. I pay tribute to everyone concerned in the innovative marketing scheme in Troon. It is the kind of thing that we want to see elsewhere.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6858246+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710111", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26954, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 333.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 333.0, "ID": 26954, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 334.0, "ContributionID": 710111, "EditedText": "We now move to the business motion. I call Tom McCabe.", "EditedTextHTML": "We now move to the business motion. I call Tom McCabe.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6858246+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1990E181P340C710112", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26954, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 333.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 333.0, "ID": 26954, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robson, Euan", "ID": 1990, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Roxburgh and Berwickshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Euan Robson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Euan Robson (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 336.0, "ContributionID": 710112, "EditedText": "On a point of order. How many members were not called to ask questions on the fisheries statement?", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. How many members were not called to ask questions on the fisheries statement?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6858246+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2228E151P202C710114", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26954, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 333.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 333.0, "ID": 26954, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McCabe, Tom", "ID": 2228, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Tom McCabe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Parliament (Mr Tom McCabe): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 341.0, "ContributionID": 710114, "EditedText": "The motion, as usual, sets out the business for next week and the provisional business for the following week. The proposal is as follows. On the afternoon of Wednesday 3 November, the meeting will start at 2.30 pm with time for reflection. That will be followed by a debate on an Executive motion on the Scottish Executive's compact with the voluntary sector. Thereafter, decision time will take place at 5 pm, followed by a members' business debate on motion S1M-208, in the name of Mr Michael Russell, on unemployment in north Ayrshire. On Thursday 4 November, business will begin with a debate on a non-Executive motion from the Scottish National party on agricultural and rural affairs. A more specific motion will be laid nearer the time. On conclusion of the debate, I will move a further business motion. The afternoon meeting of that day will start, as usual, with question time at 2.30 pm. That will be followed at 3.15 pm by a ministerial statement and debate on the strategic roads review. Decision time will take place at 5 pm and will be followed by a members' business debate on motion S1M-212, in the name of Lord James Douglas-Hamilton, on the Scottish parliamentary elections. The business for the following week is, as always, provisional. On Wednesday 10 November, the meeting again will start at 2.30 pm, with time for reflection, followed by Executive business on a subject yet to be announced. After decision time at 5 pm, there will be a debate on members' business on a subject yet to be announced. On Thursday 11 November, the first item of business will be a ministerial statement and debate on year 2000 and millennium date change issues. Before lunch, a further business motion will be moved. The afternoon meeting will begin at 2.30 pm with question time, followed at 3.15 pm by a debate on an affirmative Scottish statutory instrument, the Maximum Number of Judges (Scotland) Order 1999, which increases the maximum number of persons who may be appointed as judges. Following decision time at 5 pm, there will be a members' business debate on a subject yet to be announced. The motion also sets out the date—22 November—by which the European Committee must report to the lead committee, the Rural Affairs Committee, on the Organic Aid (Scotland) Amendment Regulations 1999. I move,That the Parliament agrees (a) the following programme of business Wednesday 3 November 1999 2.30 pm Time for Reflection followed by Executive Debate on the Scottish Executive's Compact with the Voluntary Sector followed by Parliamentary Bureau motions 5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business Debate on the subject of S1M-208, Michael Russell: Unemployment in North Ayrshire Thursday 4 November 19999.30 am Non-Executive Business on a motion by the Scottish National Party 12.20 pm Business Motion 2.30 pm Question Time 3.00 pm Open Question Time followed by, no later than 3.15 pm Ministerial Statement and Debate on the Strategic Roads Review followed by Parliamentary Bureau motions 5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business Debate on the subject of S1M-212, Lord James Douglas-Hamilton: Scottish Parliamentary Elections Wednesday 10 November 19992.30 pm Time for Reflection followed by Executive Business followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions 5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business Thursday 11 November 1999 9.30 am Ministerial Statement and Debate on Year 2000 12.20 pm Business Motion 2.30 pm Question Time 3.00 pm Open Question Time followed by, no later than 3.15 pm Debate on the Maximum Number of Judges (Scotland) Order 1999 followed by Parliamentary Bureau motions 5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business and (b), the following dates by which other committees should make any recommendations on instruments or draft instruments to the lead committee the European Committee to report to the Rural Affairs Committee by 22 November 1999 on the Organic Aid (Scotland) Amendment Regulations 1999 (SSI 1999/107).", "EditedTextHTML": "The motion, as usual, sets out the business for next week and the provisional business for the following week. The proposal is as follows.

On the afternoon of Wednesday 3 November, the meeting will start at 2.30 pm with time for reflection. That will be followed by a debate on an Executive motion on the Scottish Executive's compact with the voluntary sector. Thereafter, decision time will take place at 5 pm, followed by a members' business debate on motion S1M-208, in the name of Mr Michael Russell, on unemployment in north Ayrshire.

On Thursday 4 November, business will begin with a debate on a non-Executive motion from the Scottish National party on agricultural and rural affairs. A more specific motion will be laid nearer the time. On conclusion of the debate, I will move a further business motion.

The afternoon meeting of that day will start, as usual, with question time at 2.30 pm. That will be followed at 3.15 pm by a ministerial statement and debate on the strategic roads review. Decision time will take place at 5 pm and will be followed by a members' business debate on motion S1M-212, in the name of Lord James Douglas-Hamilton, on the Scottish parliamentary elections.

The business for the following week is, as always, provisional. On Wednesday 10 November, the meeting again will start at 2.30 pm, with time for reflection, followed by Executive business on a subject yet to be announced. After decision time at 5 pm, there will be a debate on members' business on a subject yet to be announced.

On Thursday 11 November, the first item of business will be a ministerial statement and debate on year 2000 and millennium date change issues. Before lunch, a further business motion will be moved. The afternoon meeting will begin at

2.30 pm with question time, followed at 3.15 pm by a debate on an affirmative Scottish statutory instrument, the Maximum Number of Judges (Scotland) Order 1999, which increases the maximum number of persons who may be appointed as judges. Following decision time at 5 pm, there will be a members' business debate on a subject yet to be announced.

The motion also sets out the date—22 November—by which the European Committee must report to the lead committee, the Rural Affairs Committee, on the Organic Aid (Scotland) Amendment Regulations 1999.

I move,

That the Parliament agrees (a) the following programme of business Wednesday 3 November 1999 2.30 pm Time for Reflection followed by Executive Debate on the Scottish Executive's Compact with the Voluntary Sector followed by Parliamentary Bureau motions

5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business Debate on the subject of S1M-208, Michael Russell: Unemployment in North Ayrshire

Thursday 4 November 1999

9.30 am Non-Executive Business on a motion by the Scottish National Party 12.20 pm Business Motion 2.30 pm Question Time 3.00 pm Open Question Time followed by, no later than 3.15 pm Ministerial Statement and Debate on the Strategic Roads Review followed by Parliamentary Bureau motions

5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business Debate on the subject of S1M-212, Lord James Douglas-Hamilton: Scottish Parliamentary Elections

Wednesday 10 November 1999

2.30 pm Time for Reflection followed by Executive Business followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions 5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business Thursday 11 November 1999 9.30 am Ministerial Statement and Debate on Year 2000 12.20 pm Business Motion 2.30 pm Question Time 3.00 pm Open Question Time followed by, no later than 3.15 pm Debate on the Maximum Number of Judges (Scotland) Order 1999 followed by Parliamentary Bureau motions

5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business and (b), the following dates by which other committees should make any recommendations on instruments or draft instruments to the lead committee the European Committee to report to the Rural Affairs Committee by 22 November 1999 on the Organic Aid (Scotland) Amendment Regulations 1999 (SSI 1999/107).

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6858246+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710115", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26954, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 333.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 333.0, "ID": 26954, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 343.0, "ContributionID": 710115, "EditedText": "No member has asked to speak against the motion, therefore I will put the question to the chamber. The question is, that motion S1M-231 be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "No member has asked to speak against the motion, therefore I will put the question to the chamber. The question is, that motion S1M-231 be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6858246+00:00" }, { "ID": "C710119", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26954, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 333.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 333.0, "ID": 26954, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 349.0, "ContributionID": 710119, "EditedText": "On resuming—", "EditedTextHTML": "On resuming—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6858246+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710121", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26954, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 333.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 333.0, "ID": 26954, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 352.0, "ContributionID": 710121, "EditedText": "It is not unknown for parties in this chamber to put forward party political points Laughter. There is nothing out of order in members combining to lodge questions. Before we begin question time, I am sure that the chamber would like to welcome in the distinguished strangers gallery the right hon Taranth Ranabhat, Speaker of the House of Representatives of Nepal, and his delegation. Applause.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is not unknown for parties in this chamber to put forward party political points [Laughter.] There is nothing out of order in members combining to lodge questions.

Before we begin question time, I am sure that the chamber would like to welcome in the distinguished strangers gallery the right hon Taranth Ranabhat, Speaker of the House of Representatives of Nepal, and his delegation. [Applause.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6858246+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C710123", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26955, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 354.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26956, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 355.0, "QuestionHeading": "Education Funding", "QuestionHeadingID": 26957, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 356.0, "DisplayOrder": 356.0, "ID": 26957, "ParentID": 26956 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 359.0, "ContributionID": 710123, "EditedText": "Does the minister agree that the extra sum means that the pupils of Dunblane High, who were here this morning, will directly benefit from the partnership agreement between our parties? Will he reassure me that the good that will be done for education by the extra money will not be undone by capping Perth and Kinross Council's spending next year if its budget is slightly above guidelines, bearing in mind that the First Minister rightly described capping as crude, and that none of us wants to do anything that could possibly undermine the robust health of our coalition?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the minister agree that the extra sum means that the pupils of Dunblane High, who were here this morning, will directly benefit from the partnership agreement between our parties?

Will he reassure me that the good that will be done for education by the extra money will not be undone by capping Perth and Kinross Council's spending next year if its budget is slightly above guidelines, bearing in mind that the First Minister rightly described capping as crude, and that none of us wants to do anything that could possibly undermine the robust health of our coalition?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6858246+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2167E79P155C710126", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26955, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 354.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26956, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 355.0, "QuestionHeading": "Education Funding", "QuestionHeadingID": 26957, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 356.0, "DisplayOrder": 356.0, "ID": 26957, "ParentID": 26956 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Peacock, Peter", "ID": 2167, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Peter Peacock", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Peter Peacock: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 365.0, "ContributionID": 710126, "EditedText": "I do not often have the chance to agree whole-heartedly with Mr Raffan, so I will take this opportunity to welcome what he said about the additional resources. One of the hallmarks of this Administration is the high priority we give to education. That is why money is flowing not just to Dunblane High, but to every school in Scotland in order to improve education in every community—and it should continue.", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not often have the chance to agree whole-heartedly with Mr Raffan, so I will take this opportunity to welcome what he said about the additional resources. One of the hallmarks of this Administration is the high priority we give to education. That is why money is flowing not just to Dunblane High, but to every school in Scotland in order to improve education in every community—and it should continue.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6858246+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2234E7P20C710127", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26955, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 354.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26956, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 355.0, "QuestionHeading": "Scottish Legal Aid Board", "QuestionHeadingID": 26958, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 367.0, "DisplayOrder": 367.0, "ID": 26958, "ParentID": 26956 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Aitken, Bill", "ID": 2234, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bill Aitken", "SpeakerDisplayName": "2. Bill Aitken (Glasgow) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 368.0, "ContributionID": 710127, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what action it intends to take to ensure that accounts rendered to the Scottish Legal Aid Board are settled timeously. (S1O-483) The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice (Mr Jim Wallace): The Scottish Legal Aid Board gave an undertaking to introduce, by 25 October 1999, a new target of paying all criminal legal aid accounts within 30 days—excluding public holidays—from the receipt of an account supported by appropriate documentation. I understand that the backlog of accounts has been cleared and that the target is being met. The board's performance will be monitored at regular meetings between the chief executive, the chairman and my officials.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what action it intends to take to ensure that accounts rendered to the Scottish Legal Aid Board are settled timeously. (S1O-483) The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice (Mr Jim Wallace): The Scottish Legal Aid Board gave an undertaking to introduce, by 25 October 1999, a new target of paying all criminal legal aid accounts within 30 days—excluding public holidays—from the receipt of an account supported by appropriate documentation. I understand that the backlog of accounts has been cleared and that the target is being met. The board's performance will be monitored at regular meetings between the chief executive, the chairman and my officials.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6858246+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C710129", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26955, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 354.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26956, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 355.0, "QuestionHeading": "Scottish Legal Aid Board", "QuestionHeadingID": 26958, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 367.0, "DisplayOrder": 367.0, "ID": 26958, "ParentID": 26956 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 372.0, "ContributionID": 710129, "EditedText": "I should declare an interest as a non-practising member of the Faculty of Advocates. I would not wish to say anything that might upset my colleagues, especially as I am attending a reception at their behest tonight. I agree that single-member practices in the legal profession have difficulties maintaining cash flow and with the paperwork that they must undertake. It is for those reasons that the Scottish Legal Aid Board has brought new systems into play to try to ensure that the 30-day target is met. I will take this opportunity to pay tribute to current staff of the Legal Aid Board and the ex- employees who returned to help, who worked exceptional overtime to ensure that the backlog was cleared as soon as possible.", "EditedTextHTML": "I should declare an interest as a non-practising member of the Faculty of Advocates. I would not wish to say anything that might upset my colleagues, especially as I am attending a reception at their behest tonight.

I agree that single-member practices in the legal profession have difficulties maintaining cash flow and with the paperwork that they must undertake. It is for those reasons that the Scottish Legal Aid Board has brought new systems into play to try to ensure that the 30-day target is met.

I will take this opportunity to pay tribute to current staff of the Legal Aid Board and the ex- employees who returned to help, who worked exceptional overtime to ensure that the backlog was cleared as soon as possible.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6858246+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1996E124P211C710131", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26955, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 354.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26956, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 355.0, "QuestionHeading": "North Ayrshire Council", "QuestionHeadingID": 26959, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 374.0, "DisplayOrder": 374.0, "ID": 26959, "ParentID": 26956 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAveety, Mr Frank", "ID": 1996, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Shettleston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Local Government", "SpeakerName": "Frank McAveety", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Local Government (Mr Frank McAveety): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 377.0, "ContributionID": 710131, "EditedText": "None.", "EditedTextHTML": "None.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6858246+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C710132", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26955, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 354.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26956, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 355.0, "QuestionHeading": "North Ayrshire Council", "QuestionHeadingID": 26959, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 374.0, "DisplayOrder": 374.0, "ID": 26959, "ParentID": 26956 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 379.0, "ContributionID": 710132, "EditedText": "I am not sure that Mr McAveety will win debater of the year with that speech. You know as little about this as the trade unions and the workers. Despite their efforts to find out why those decisions have been made, the trade unions and DLO workers have not received any information. In the light of the fact that you know nothing about this, will you join me and the trade unions in trying to get information by asking North Ayrshire Council to delay the decision until there has been an independent audit, discussed with those who are involved?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am not sure that Mr McAveety will win debater of the year with that speech.

You know as little about this as the trade unions and the workers. Despite their efforts to find out why those decisions have been made, the trade unions and DLO workers have not received any information. In the light of the fact that you know nothing about this, will you join me and the trade unions in trying to get information by asking North Ayrshire Council to delay the decision until there has been an independent audit, discussed with those who are involved?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6858246+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C710134", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26955, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 354.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26956, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 355.0, "QuestionHeading": "North Ayrshire Council", "QuestionHeadingID": 26959, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 374.0, "DisplayOrder": 374.0, "ID": 26959, "ParentID": 26956 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 383.0, "ContributionID": 710134, "EditedText": "I am concerned that you use the words \"absolutely delighted\" about the loss of 40 jobs in North Ayrshire—an area that has the second worst unemployment in Scotland. Will you encourage an independent audit so that the workers involved can understand the reasoning behind this decision? Although modernisation may mean a lot to you and your colleagues in new Labour, in these circumstances it means job losses to people in North Ayrshire.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am concerned that you use the words \"absolutely delighted\" about the loss of 40 jobs in North Ayrshire—an area that has the second worst unemployment in Scotland. Will you encourage an independent audit so that the workers involved can understand the reasoning behind this decision? Although modernisation may mean a lot to you and your colleagues in new Labour, in these circumstances it means job losses to people in North Ayrshire.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6858246+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1996E124P211C710135", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26955, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 354.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26956, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 355.0, "QuestionHeading": "North Ayrshire Council", "QuestionHeadingID": 26959, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 374.0, "DisplayOrder": 374.0, "ID": 26959, "ParentID": 26956 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAveety, Mr Frank", "ID": 1996, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Shettleston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Local Government", "SpeakerName": "Frank McAveety", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McAveety: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 385.0, "ContributionID": 710135, "EditedText": "That, too, is a misrepresentation of what I said. I said that I was delighted at the opportunity for the local authority to address how it structures its DLO. I hope you recognise that, because of the principle of subsidiarity in decision making, it is for the local authority to determine within its resources how best to approach these matters. I am fairly confident that councillors in North Ayrshire, most of whom are committed to the change agenda—some parts of which the SNP would not support—will ensure that the council delivers quality DLO services and for the local taxpayer. The pity is that your SNP colleagues say one thing locally and do a different thing nationally.", "EditedTextHTML": "That, too, is a misrepresentation of what I said. I said that I was delighted at the opportunity for the local authority to address how it structures its DLO. I hope you recognise that, because of the principle of subsidiarity in decision making, it is for the local authority to determine within its resources how best to approach these matters. I am fairly confident that councillors in North Ayrshire, most of whom are committed to the change agenda—some parts of which the SNP would not support—will ensure that the council delivers quality DLO services and for the local taxpayer. The pity is that your SNP colleagues say one thing locally and do a different thing nationally.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6858246+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710144", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26955, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 354.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26956, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 355.0, "QuestionHeading": "Out-of-town Retail Development", "QuestionHeadingID": 26961, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 398.0, "DisplayOrder": 398.0, "ID": 26961, "ParentID": 26956 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 405.0, "ContributionID": 710144, "EditedText": "I call Alex Neil.", "EditedTextHTML": "I call Alex Neil.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6858246+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C710148", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26955, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 354.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26956, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 355.0, "QuestionHeading": "Poverty", "QuestionHeadingID": 26962, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 411.0, "DisplayOrder": 411.0, "ID": 26962, "ParentID": 26956 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 414.0, "ContributionID": 710148, "EditedText": "In terms of measuring poverty in Scotland, will the Executive be forced by Alistair Darling and the Department of Social Security into using their indicators, rather than doing what the Minister for Communities previously promised to do—apply a more radical set of indicators here in Scotland? Would that not be in total defiance of the principle of devolution?", "EditedTextHTML": "In terms of measuring poverty in Scotland, will the Executive be forced by Alistair Darling and the Department of Social Security into using their indicators, rather than doing what the Minister for Communities previously promised to do—apply a more radical set of indicators here in Scotland? Would that not be in total defiance of the principle of devolution?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6858246+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1962E35P56C710156", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26955, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 354.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26956, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 355.0, "QuestionHeading": "Residential Homes", "QuestionHeadingID": 26964, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 427.0, "DisplayOrder": 427.0, "ID": 26964, "ParentID": 26956 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mundell, David", "ID": 1962, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Mundell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David Mundell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 432.0, "ContributionID": 710156, "EditedText": "I welcome the minister's response and his letter, although I note that the controller of audit has said that there are some arrangements that give cause for concern in respect of the value for money of the transfer. Is the minister aware that one of the consequences of externalisation has been the adoption by Dumfries and Galloway Council of a three-for-one policy, whereby three elderly people in private nursing homes have to die before one elderly person is allowed into a private nursing home, and that that has led to bed-blocking, to the enormous cost of the local health service?", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the minister's response and his letter, although I note that the controller of audit has said that there are some arrangements that give cause for concern in respect of the value for money of the transfer.

Is the minister aware that one of the consequences of externalisation has been the adoption by Dumfries and Galloway Council of a three-for-one policy, whereby three elderly people in private nursing homes have to die before one elderly person is allowed into a private nursing home, and that that has led to bed-blocking, to the enormous cost of the local health service?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6858246+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2033E106P139C710157", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26955, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 354.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26956, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 355.0, "QuestionHeading": "Residential Homes", "QuestionHeadingID": 26964, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 427.0, "DisplayOrder": 427.0, "ID": 26964, "ParentID": 26956 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gray, Iain", "ID": 2033, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Pentlands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Iain Gray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Iain Gray: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 434.0, "ContributionID": 710157, "EditedText": "I thank Mr Mundell for pointing out why a section 211 inquiry would not be appropriate at the moment. The controller of audit is already investigating the decision-making process that resulted in the externalisation. Several other people, including the local government ombudsman and the council's monitoring officer, could address some of the concerns Mr Mundell has raised. The possibilities have not been exhausted, which is why an inquiry is not appropriate. On the policy of delayed discharge, I understand that the council and the health board agree that 13 people are in hospital awaiting placement because the council does not have the resources to accommodate them. The delay in discharge is approximately two months and my officials have been encouraging the local authority and the national health service trust to work together to improve the situation as soon as possible, as is their responsibility.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank Mr Mundell for pointing out why a section 211 inquiry would not be appropriate at the moment. The controller of audit is already investigating the decision-making process that resulted in the externalisation. Several other people, including the local government ombudsman and the council's monitoring officer, could address some of the concerns Mr Mundell has raised. The possibilities have not been exhausted, which is why an inquiry is not appropriate.

On the policy of delayed discharge, I understand that the council and the health board agree that 13 people are in hospital awaiting placement because the council does not have the resources to accommodate them. The delay in discharge is approximately two months and my officials have been encouraging the local authority and the national health service trust to work together to improve the situation as soon as possible, as is their responsibility.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6858246+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710168", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26955, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 354.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26956, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 355.0, "QuestionHeading": "Rural Development", "QuestionHeadingID": 26967, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 450.0, "DisplayOrder": 450.0, "ID": 26967, "ParentID": 26956 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 459.0, "ContributionID": 710168, "EditedText": "I remind members that the standing orders say clearly that questions should be brief.", "EditedTextHTML": "I remind members that the standing orders say clearly that questions should be brief.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6858246+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2188E70P92C710170", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26955, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 354.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26956, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 355.0, "QuestionHeading": "Natura 2000 Directive", "QuestionHeadingID": 26968, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 461.0, "DisplayOrder": 461.0, "ID": 26968, "ParentID": 26956 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harper, Robin", "ID": 2188, "PartyName": "Scottish Green Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Green", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robin Harper", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robin Harper: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 464.0, "ContributionID": 710170, "EditedText": "I thank the minister—to whom I am disposed to give my support whenever possible—for her answer. However, is she aware of the criticism levelled at the UK at the recent EU Commission meeting in Dublin over its minimalist approach, in comparison with other countries, to implementation of the EU habitats directive? Thirty-nine different UK habitats, 37 of which are in Scotland, had not been considered for designation. Is she aware of the concern—", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the minister—to whom I am disposed to give my support whenever possible—for her answer. However, is she aware of the criticism levelled at the UK at the recent EU Commission meeting in Dublin over its minimalist approach, in comparison with other countries, to implementation of the EU habitats directive? Thirty-nine different UK habitats, 37 of which are in Scotland, had not been considered for designation. Is she aware of the concern—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4201801+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2188E70P92C710172", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26955, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 354.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26956, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 355.0, "QuestionHeading": "Natura 2000 Directive", "QuestionHeadingID": 26968, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 461.0, "DisplayOrder": 461.0, "ID": 26968, "ParentID": 26956 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harper, Robin", "ID": 2188, "PartyName": "Scottish Green Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Green", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robin Harper", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robin Harper: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 468.0, "ContributionID": 710172, "EditedText": "This is part of the question— please let me finish.", "EditedTextHTML": "This is part of the question— please let me finish.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4201801+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C710175", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26955, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 354.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26956, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 355.0, "QuestionHeading": "Education Funding The Presiding Officer: Order.", "QuestionHeadingID": 26969, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 474.0, "DisplayOrder": 474.0, "ID": 26969, "ParentID": 26956 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "13. George Lyon (Argyll and Bute) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 475.0, "ContributionID": 710175, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what its estimate is of the increase in money for education that will be available in 2000-01 to Argyll and Bute and West Dunbartonshire councils as a consequence of the £80 million extra spending for education announced by the Minister for Finance on 6 October. (S1O-461) The Deputy Minister for Children and Education (Peter Peacock): There is something faintly familiar about that question. I am very pleased that our colleagues in the Liberal Democrats have embraced the policy of best value in terms of question-writing.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what its estimate is of the increase in money for education that will be available in 2000-01 to Argyll and Bute and West Dunbartonshire councils as a consequence of the £80 million extra spending for education announced by the Minister for Finance on 6 October. (S1O-461) The Deputy Minister for Children and Education (Peter Peacock): There is something faintly familiar about that question. I am very pleased that our colleagues in the Liberal Democrats have embraced the policy of best value in terms of question-writing.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4201801+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C710180", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26955, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 354.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26956, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 355.0, "QuestionHeading": "Education Funding The Presiding Officer: Order.", "QuestionHeadingID": 26969, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 474.0, "DisplayOrder": 474.0, "ID": 26969, "ParentID": 26956 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 485.0, "ContributionID": 710180, "EditedText": "Does the minister agree that the additional money will help Argyll and Bute Council to think again about its proposals to close as many as 10 rural schools? Can he guarantee that while the money will be ring-fenced for education, it will be left to local authorities to determine their own education priorities?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the minister agree that the additional money will help Argyll and Bute Council to think again about its proposals to close as many as 10 rural schools? Can he guarantee that while the money will be ring-fenced for education, it will be left to local authorities to determine their own education priorities?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C710190", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26955, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 354.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26956, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 355.0, "QuestionHeading": "Charity Shops", "QuestionHeadingID": 26970, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 499.0, "DisplayOrder": 499.0, "ID": 26970, "ParentID": 26956 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 506.0, "ContributionID": 710190, "EditedText": "Yes.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C710194", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26972, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 515.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26973, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 516.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meeting)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26974, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 517.0, "DisplayOrder": 517.0, "ID": 26974, "ParentID": 26973 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "1. Mr Alex Salmond (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 518.0, "ContributionID": 710194, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive when the First Minister last met the Secretary of State for Scotland and what issues were discussed. (S1O485) The First Minister (Donald Dewar): I met the Secretary of State for Scotland on 18 October, when, as always, we discussed matters of mutual interest.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive when the First Minister last met the Secretary of State for Scotland and what issues were discussed. (S1O485) The First Minister (Donald Dewar): I met the Secretary of State for Scotland on 18 October, when, as always, we discussed matters of mutual interest.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C710198", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26972, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 515.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26973, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 516.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meeting)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26974, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 517.0, "DisplayOrder": 517.0, "ID": 26974, "ParentID": 26973 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 526.0, "ContributionID": 710198, "EditedText": "I have said already that I do not wish to comment on the merits of those arguments, as they are being considered by people of considerably more legal experience than either Alex Salmond or me. I accept that, and I hope that Mr Salmond will as well. We should wait for the review to take place. I am genuinely astonished to hear that Andrew Hardie—Lord Hardie, our present Lord Advocate—is a non-person. He certainly is a Labour Lord Advocate in my book.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have said already that I do not wish to comment on the merits of those arguments, as they are being considered by people of considerably more legal experience than either Alex Salmond or me. I accept that, and I hope that Mr Salmond will as well. We should wait for the review to take place.

I am genuinely astonished to hear that Andrew Hardie—Lord Hardie, our present Lord Advocate—is a non-person. He certainly is a Labour Lord Advocate in my book.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C710200", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26972, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 515.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26973, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 516.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meeting)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26974, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 517.0, "DisplayOrder": 517.0, "ID": 26974, "ParentID": 26973 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 530.0, "ContributionID": 710200, "EditedText": "That is a splendid series of hypothetical points. I again advise the gentleman to wait for the judgment. If I allow myself one little indulgence, I will say that the judgment came as a surprise to most people with an interest in the law.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is a splendid series of hypothetical points. I again advise the gentleman to wait for the judgment. If I allow myself one little indulgence, I will say that the judgment came as a surprise to most people with an interest in the law.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C710201", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26972, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 515.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26973, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 516.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meeting)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26974, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 517.0, "DisplayOrder": 517.0, "ID": 26974, "ParentID": 26973 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 532.0, "ContributionID": 710201, "EditedText": "When the First Minister met his colleague last week, did he find time to talk about the health service in Scotland, and did he perhaps find time to express his pride in the cochlear implant treatment that is offered by Crosshouse hospital? Does he advocate that that system should remain at Crosshouse, and that John Reid could take the message of Crosshouse's success back to his colleagues at Westminster?", "EditedTextHTML": "When the First Minister met his colleague last week, did he find time to talk about the health service in Scotland, and did he perhaps find time to express his pride in the cochlear implant treatment that is offered by Crosshouse hospital? Does he advocate that that system should remain at Crosshouse, and that John Reid could take the message of Crosshouse's success back to his colleagues at Westminster?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C710204", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26972, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 515.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26973, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 516.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meeting)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26974, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 517.0, "DisplayOrder": 517.0, "ID": 26974, "ParentID": 26973 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 538.0, "ContributionID": 710204, "EditedText": "Mr Canavan's theory is touching and he is obviously attached to it. However, I suggest gently that international law is not defined by Greenock sheriff court.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Canavan's theory is touching and he is obviously attached to it. However, I suggest gently that international law is not defined by Greenock sheriff court.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C710206", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26972, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 515.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26973, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 516.0, "QuestionHeading": "SNP Leader (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26975, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 542.0, "DisplayOrder": 542.0, "ID": 26975, "ParentID": 26973 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "2. David McLetchie (Lothians) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 543.0, "ContributionID": 710206, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive how many meetings the First Minister has had with the leader of the SNP and whether further meetings between them are planned. (S1O-477)", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive how many meetings the First Minister has had with the leader of the SNP and whether further meetings between them are planned. (S1O-477)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C710209", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26972, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 515.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26973, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 516.0, "QuestionHeading": "SNP Leader (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26975, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 542.0, "DisplayOrder": 542.0, "ID": 26975, "ParentID": 26973 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 549.0, "ContributionID": 710209, "EditedText": "I think that I have the advantage of knowing the position of the leader of the SNP on the matter. However, I am a little bit confused by what I hear from the Scottish Conservative benches. At the Conservative party conference south of the border, we had the vision of Lord Tebbit going to the rostrum to say that he had been an unhappy Conservative for many years, but that that week he was yet again a happy Conservative. That tells us all we need to know about the state of Conservative thinking.", "EditedTextHTML": "I think that I have the advantage of knowing the position of the leader of the SNP on the matter. However, I am a little bit confused by what I hear from the Scottish Conservative benches. At the Conservative party conference south of the border, we had the vision of Lord Tebbit going to the rostrum to say that he had been an unhappy Conservative for many years, but that that week he was yet again a happy Conservative. That tells us all we need to know about the state of Conservative thinking.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C710210", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26972, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 515.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26973, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 516.0, "QuestionHeading": "SNP Leader (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26975, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 542.0, "DisplayOrder": 542.0, "ID": 26975, "ParentID": 26973 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 551.0, "ContributionID": 710210, "EditedText": "I am very interested to learn that the First Minister thinks that he knows the SNP's position on the issue. Of course, he knows the position of the SNP leadership. However, that party's national council has never voted to join the single currency. Is not it clear from this unholy alliance that only the Scottish Conservative party is standing up for our interests in Europe to defend our sovereignty? Furthermore, is not it clear that the unholy alliance that the First Minister is putting together—the Lib-Lab-Nat pact of SNP, Liberal Democrats and Labour Laughter.—is committed to handing over control of our economy to Brussels? Will the First Minister admit that that is his intention or is he, like Tony Blair, a big feartie, afraid to tell the truth about Labour's plans to abolish the pound with all that that entails?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am very interested to learn that the First Minister thinks that he knows the SNP's position on the issue. Of course, he knows the position of the SNP leadership. However, that party's national council has never voted to join the single currency. Is not it clear from this unholy alliance that only the Scottish Conservative party is standing up for our interests in Europe to defend our sovereignty? Furthermore, is not it clear that the unholy alliance that the First Minister is putting together—the Lib-Lab-Nat pact of SNP, Liberal Democrats and Labour [Laughter.]—is committed to handing over control of our economy to Brussels? Will the First Minister admit that that is his intention or is he, like Tony Blair, a big feartie, afraid to tell the truth about Labour's plans to abolish the pound with all that that entails?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C710213", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26972, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 515.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26973, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 516.0, "QuestionHeading": "SNP Leader (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26975, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 542.0, "DisplayOrder": 542.0, "ID": 26975, "ParentID": 26973 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 557.0, "ContributionID": 710213, "EditedText": "I am grateful for having the matter drawn to my attention. I must confess that I have not studied the works and writings of Mr Wallace with any great attention. I know that I disagree with him on a number of social and other issues, but if this is a shining exception to my normal prejudiced approach to his affairs, please—give me a script.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful for having the matter drawn to my attention. I must confess that I have not studied the works and writings of Mr Wallace with any great attention. I know that I disagree with him on a number of social and other issues, but if this is a shining exception to my normal prejudiced approach to his affairs, please—give me a script.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C710214", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26972, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 515.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26973, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 516.0, "QuestionHeading": "SNP Leader (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26975, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 542.0, "DisplayOrder": 542.0, "ID": 26975, "ParentID": 26973 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon (Argyll and Bute) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 559.0, "ContributionID": 710214, "EditedText": "In view of Mr McLetchie's previous answer, does the First Minister agree that, if William Hague's idea of standing up for industries in Scotland and Britain in Europe is to advocate an illegal trade war, that will result in a tit-for-tat action that will destroy jobs and the whole of the rural economy if it escalates out of control?", "EditedTextHTML": "In view of Mr McLetchie's previous answer, does the First Minister agree that, if William Hague's idea of standing up for industries in Scotland and Britain in Europe is to advocate an illegal trade war, that will result in a tit-for-tat action that will destroy jobs and the whole of the rural economy if it escalates out of control?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C710217", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26972, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 515.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26973, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 516.0, "QuestionHeading": "NHS Pay Negotiations", "QuestionHeadingID": 26976, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 563.0, "DisplayOrder": 563.0, "ID": 26976, "ParentID": 26973 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 566.0, "ContributionID": 710217, "EditedText": "I can advise Mr Adam that nurses, midwives, health visitors and professions allied to medicine, or PAMs, were awarded 4.7 per cent and doctors and dentists received 3.5 cent for 1999-2000. Negotiations are still continuing for the other staff groups.", "EditedTextHTML": "I can advise Mr Adam that nurses, midwives, health visitors and professions allied to medicine, or PAMs, were awarded 4.7 per cent and doctors and dentists received 3.5 cent for 1999-2000. Negotiations are still continuing for the other staff groups.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C710221", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26972, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 515.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26973, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 516.0, "QuestionHeading": "NHS Pay Negotiations", "QuestionHeadingID": 26976, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 563.0, "DisplayOrder": 563.0, "ID": 26976, "ParentID": 26973 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 574.0, "ContributionID": 710221, "EditedText": "I agree that it is important to recognise the vital contribution of all staff groups in the NHS. Regarding that, I must repeat points that I made in answer to the previous question. We continue to support and to work for all staff groups within the existing machinery, but we are absolutely committed to making improvements in the future. That commitment will apply not only in future—it is real now. That is why we are working with staff groups across the NHS in Scotland through the Scottish partnership forum to develop and improve the NHS in Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "I agree that it is important to recognise the vital contribution of all staff groups in the NHS. Regarding that, I must repeat points that I made in answer to the previous question. We continue to support and to work for all staff groups within the existing machinery, but we are absolutely committed to making improvements in the future. That commitment will apply not only in future—it is real now. That is why we are working with staff groups across the NHS in Scotland through the Scottish partnership forum to develop and improve the NHS in Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C710224", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26972, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 515.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26973, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 516.0, "QuestionHeading": "NHS Pay Negotiations", "QuestionHeadingID": 26976, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 563.0, "DisplayOrder": 563.0, "ID": 26976, "ParentID": 26973 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan (Glasgow) (SSP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 580.0, "ContributionID": 710224, "EditedText": "In the light of today's income data survey report, does the minister agree that there should be condemnation of the continued excesses in British boardrooms, where bosses are awarding themselves pay increases five times greater than the average increases that are being awarded to our health workers, and that the case for a maximum wage as well as a minimum wage is now formidable?", "EditedTextHTML": "In the light of today's income data survey report, does the minister agree that there should be condemnation of the continued excesses in British boardrooms, where bosses are awarding themselves pay increases five times greater than the average increases that are being awarded to our health workers, and that the case for a maximum wage as well as a minimum wage is now formidable?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C710227", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26972, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 515.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26973, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 516.0, "QuestionHeading": "NHS Pay Negotiations", "QuestionHeadingID": 26976, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 563.0, "DisplayOrder": 563.0, "ID": 26976, "ParentID": 26973 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 586.0, "ContributionID": 710227, "EditedText": "I repeat the point that the First Minister made very eloquently just a moment ago. Spending per head of population in Scotland is 20 per cent above that in England, reflecting the health needs that exist in Scotland and reflecting also our commitment to develop the health service. As I said, we are working within the UK framework for pay negotiations with NHS staff. Our co-operation with NHS staff across the UK— which the SNP would not support, but which NHS staff do—and our record of supporting staff and responding to the recommendations of the pay review body speak for themselves.", "EditedTextHTML": "I repeat the point that the First Minister made very eloquently just a moment ago. Spending per head of population in Scotland is 20 per cent above that in England, reflecting the health needs that exist in Scotland and reflecting also our commitment to develop the health service. As I said, we are working within the UK framework for pay negotiations with NHS staff. Our co-operation with NHS staff across the UK— which the SNP would not support, but which NHS staff do—and our record of supporting staff and responding to the recommendations of the pay review body speak for themselves.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C710228", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish University for Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26977, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 588.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 588.0, "ID": 26977, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 589.0, "ContributionID": 710228, "EditedText": "The next item of business is the debate on motion S1M-227 in the name of Nicol Stephen, and on the amendment to that motion, on the Scottish university for industry.", "EditedTextHTML": "The next item of business is the debate on motion S1M-227 in the name of Nicol Stephen, and on the amendment to that motion, on the Scottish university for industry.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2154E194P299C710235", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish University for Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26977, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 588.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 588.0, "ID": 26977, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stephen, Nicol", "ID": 2154, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Nicol Stephen", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicol Stephen: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 604.0, "ContributionID": 710235, "EditedText": "Mr McGrigor's point about remoteness and the need for greater investment in rural areas is the point that I was trying to make. I agree with the main thrust of that point. However, four new learning centres have been opened by the college, of this nature, in the past year. Progress is being made, but we need to do more. The Scottish UFI will pay particular attention to the needs of small businesses. In Scotland, more than 800,000 people work for organisations that have fewer than 50 employees, and about two thirds of them work for organisations that have fewer than 10 employees. Small businesses often lack the funds and management time to focus on training. Their needs can differ greatly from those of big business. The Scottish UFI will also enable larger organisations to expand on the learning options that they offer their employees, and will encourage them to consider making available their workplace training facilities outside normal working hours—not only to families of their employees, but to those who are out of work, the self-employed and employees of smaller organisations. A great deal has still to be done before we launch the Scottish university for industry. The target date is next autumn. We are investing £16 million in the development of the Scottish UFI over this year and the next two years.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr McGrigor's point about remoteness and the need for greater investment in rural areas is the point that I was trying to make. I agree with the main thrust of that point. However, four new learning centres have been opened by the college, of this nature, in the past year. Progress is being made, but we need to do more.

The Scottish UFI will pay particular attention to the needs of small businesses. In Scotland, more than 800,000 people work for organisations that have fewer than 50 employees, and about two thirds of them work for organisations that have fewer than 10 employees. Small businesses often lack the funds and management time to focus on training. Their needs can differ greatly from those of big business. The Scottish UFI will also enable larger organisations to expand on the learning options that they offer their employees, and will encourage them to consider making available their workplace training facilities outside normal working hours—not only to families of their employees, but to those who are out of work, the self-employed and employees of smaller organisations.

A great deal has still to be done before we launch the Scottish university for industry. The target date is next autumn. We are investing £16 million in the development of the Scottish UFI over this year and the next two years.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C710244", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish University for Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26977, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 588.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 588.0, "ID": 26977, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Monteith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 624.0, "ContributionID": 710244, "EditedText": "I am glad to hear that. The concept of a university for industry is not driven so much by ideology as by technology. For that reason, we believe that it should be given every chance to succeed. I am well aware that the university for industry was Gordon Brown's baby. I wish the initiative more success than Harold Wilson's much-vaunted, but ultimately unsuccessful, dalliance with trying to harness the white heat of technology. A recent survey published in the Edinburgh Evening News showed that, although the vast majority of adults agreed that lifelong learning was highly desirable, less than 20 per cent of them would go back to a formal education course. Therefore, it is important that the Scottish university for industry, as a new educational broker, seeks to provide easy, informal access to education. If it does that, it must be given our support. As the minister has admitted, and as John Swinney has pointed out, there is a great deal to be done. The initiative was launched two years ago, relaunched yesterday with the publication of the report and will no doubt be launched again in autumn next year—that is not so much the shortest route to learning as the longest. I have spoken to many academics who have a rather jaundiced view of the university for industry. It has become almost a subject of derision. That must be changed if the university is not only to be successful with providers, but to have credibility with users of the service. Many academics, looking ahead, see the creation of a university that utilises artificial intelligence as a means of teaching—which may in the end be what is connected with a service such as the Scottish university for industry—as a cuckoo in their nest. That would inevitably be a threat to lecturers, who could see their positions replaced by technicians. Such changes will undoubtedly open up new opportunities for learning, but as the rate of technological change increases exponentially, the Scottish Executive would be mistaken if it thought that it could plan a strategy that keeps up with such changes. The document that was launched yesterday is typical of new Labour. It seems to have been written to try to convince us that something is being done, rather than to say what is being done. Particular emphasis is placed on the case studies, although I am not sure that they give a particularly clear indication that the Scottish Executive knows what business is about. The relationship between business and the Scottish university for industry will be crucial, which is a point that some of my colleagues will touch on later. One case study features Bill Million—clever name that. The document says: \"Bill Million, MD of SubCo Ltd, has just read an article on SufI in Scottish Business Insider. At the same time, his local Chamber of Commerce has sent him an extract from a report highlighting the damagingly low-level of internet use by Scottish SMEs.\" Bill Million decides that he needs to do something about the situation. He gets in touch with SUFI and everything is solved. However, surely no managing director with a name like Bill Million would have got where he is without knowing what to do. He would know to contact his local enterprise company or chamber of commerce to find out how to resolve the situation. We therefore need to have a clearer idea of what the Scottish university for industry will do for industry and encourage industry to come on board. As the document points out, the institution even needs a permanent name, because it is not about industry and it is not a university, as it covers far more than higher education. All that can be said at present is that it is Scottish. The document tells us why Scotland needs a university for industry and the minister will gather that the Conservative members agree that Scotland needs such an institution. However, the document does not tell us why we should have a separate university for industry from the one for the rest of the UK. Indeed, while there are many areas where it is advantageous for Scotland to develop new institutions, there can also be times when we should seek to share the development of a new project and reap benefits in that way. I am yet to be convinced that a technologically driven initiative such as the university for industry should be established separately in Scotland from the rest of the UK.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am glad to hear that. The concept of a university for industry is not driven so much by ideology as by technology. For that reason, we believe that it should be given every chance to succeed. I am well aware that the university for industry was Gordon Brown's baby. I wish the initiative more success than Harold Wilson's much-vaunted, but ultimately unsuccessful, dalliance with trying to harness the white heat of technology.

A recent survey published in the Edinburgh Evening News showed that, although the vast majority of adults agreed that lifelong learning was highly desirable, less than 20 per cent of them would go back to a formal education course. Therefore, it is important that the Scottish university for industry, as a new educational broker, seeks to provide easy, informal access to education. If it does that, it must be given our support.

As the minister has admitted, and as John Swinney has pointed out, there is a great deal to be done. The initiative was launched two years ago, relaunched yesterday with the publication of the report and will no doubt be launched again in autumn next year—that is not so much the shortest route to learning as the longest. I have spoken to many academics who have a rather jaundiced view of the university for industry. It has become almost a subject of derision. That must be changed if the university is not only to be successful with providers, but to have credibility with users of the service.

Many academics, looking ahead, see the creation of a university that utilises artificial intelligence as a means of teaching—which may in the end be what is connected with a service such as the Scottish university for industry—as a cuckoo in their nest. That would inevitably be a threat to lecturers, who could see their positions replaced by technicians. Such changes will

undoubtedly open up new opportunities for learning, but as the rate of technological change increases exponentially, the Scottish Executive would be mistaken if it thought that it could plan a strategy that keeps up with such changes.

The document that was launched yesterday is typical of new Labour. It seems to have been written to try to convince us that something is being done, rather than to say what is being done. Particular emphasis is placed on the case studies, although I am not sure that they give a particularly clear indication that the Scottish Executive knows what business is about. The relationship between business and the Scottish university for industry will be crucial, which is a point that some of my colleagues will touch on later.

One case study features Bill Million—clever name that. The document says:

\"Bill Million, MD of SubCo Ltd, has just read an article on SufI in Scottish Business Insider. At the same time, his local Chamber of Commerce has sent him an extract from a report highlighting the damagingly low-level of internet use by Scottish SMEs.\"

Bill Million decides that he needs to do something about the situation. He gets in touch with SUFI and everything is solved. However, surely no managing director with a name like Bill Million would have got where he is without knowing what to do. He would know to contact his local enterprise company or chamber of commerce to find out how to resolve the situation. We therefore need to have a clearer idea of what the Scottish university for industry will do for industry and encourage industry to come on board. As the document points out, the institution even needs a permanent name, because it is not about industry and it is not a university, as it covers far more than higher education. All that can be said at present is that it is Scottish.

The document tells us why Scotland needs a university for industry and the minister will gather that the Conservative members agree that Scotland needs such an institution. However, the document does not tell us why we should have a separate university for industry from the one for the rest of the UK. Indeed, while there are many areas where it is advantageous for Scotland to develop new institutions, there can also be times when we should seek to share the development of a new project and reap benefits in that way. I am yet to be convinced that a technologically driven initiative such as the university for industry should be established separately in Scotland from the rest of the UK.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C710247", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish University for Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26977, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 588.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 588.0, "ID": 26977, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Monteith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 630.0, "ContributionID": 710247, "EditedText": "I thank Fiona McLeod for that point, which I was just coming to. We have different institutions that work differently and that have different qualifications, which would need to be protected. Guidance would need to be issued—it is supposed to exist in the system. I have no fears on that point, although it is important that our institutions are able to benefit from the wider access that they could give to the rest of the UK and I hope that arrangements might be put in place for them to be able to do that still. We should not forget that some 25,000 students from England already attend higher education establishments in Scotland, bringing more than £100 million of revenue to those institutions. It would be good if we could open up more work for our institutions. It is interesting that the English University for Industry has already appointed its chief executive. It has even appointed an advertising agency and it is well down the road to introducing its website. Is there a clear idea of why we are establishing a separate body? If so, is it costing us more? Are our students losing out? Will we launch at the same time? Will we lose any market share, given that these institutions can be accessed through the internet? Will potential students face different charges, if charges are introduced?", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank Fiona McLeod for that point, which I was just coming to.

We have different institutions that work differently and that have different qualifications, which would need to be protected. Guidance would need to be issued—it is supposed to exist in the system. I have no fears on that point, although it is important that our institutions are able to benefit from the wider access that they could give to the rest of the UK and I hope that arrangements might be put in place for them to be able to do that still. We should not forget that some 25,000 students from England already attend higher education establishments in Scotland, bringing more than £100 million of revenue to those institutions. It would be good if we could open up more work for our institutions.

It is interesting that the English University for Industry has already appointed its chief executive. It has even appointed an advertising agency and it is well down the road to introducing its website. Is there a clear idea of why we are establishing a separate body? If so, is it costing us more? Are our students losing out? Will we launch at the same time? Will we lose any market share, given that these institutions can be accessed through the internet? Will potential students face different charges, if charges are introduced?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C710248", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish University for Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26977, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 588.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 588.0, "ID": 26977, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 632.0, "ContributionID": 710248, "EditedText": "Please come to a close.", "EditedTextHTML": "Please come to a close.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C710249", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish University for Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26977, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 588.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 588.0, "ID": 26977, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Monteith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 634.0, "ContributionID": 710249, "EditedText": "Certainly. The original intention was that these centres should be stationed not just in colleges, universities and schools. The minister mentioned the Dunfermline project—I think that being relegated is taking widening access a little too seriously. However, it is not clear whether the Scottish university for industry has any control over projects such as the pilot study in Dunfermline or whether it is simply working in partnership with that project. Pilot studies in England are already proving to be beneficial. My colleagues have many more questions for the minister, particularly in relation to industry, enterprise companies and the establishment of SUFI. I suggest that he sharpen his pencil as well as his wits.", "EditedTextHTML": "Certainly. The original intention was that these centres should be stationed not just in colleges, universities and schools. The minister mentioned the Dunfermline project—I think that being relegated is taking widening access a little too seriously. However, it is not clear whether the Scottish university for industry has any control over projects such as the pilot study in Dunfermline or whether it is simply working in partnership with that project. Pilot studies in England are already proving to be beneficial.

My colleagues have many more questions for the minister, particularly in relation to industry, enterprise companies and the establishment of SUFI. I suggest that he sharpen his pencil as well as his wits.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C710250", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish University for Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26977, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 588.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 588.0, "ID": 26977, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 636.0, "ContributionID": 710250, "EditedText": "Overruns by opening speakers have cost one member a chance to participate in this debate. I ask members to keep speeches strictly to four minutes from now on and their eyes on the countdown clock.", "EditedTextHTML": "Overruns by opening speakers have cost one member a chance to participate in this debate. I ask members to keep speeches strictly to four minutes from now on and their eyes on the countdown clock.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C710256", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish University for Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26977, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 588.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 588.0, "ID": 26977, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 649.0, "ContributionID": 710256, "EditedText": "No, I am sticking firmly to four minutes; otherwise, other members will not be able to speak. I hope you understand that.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I am sticking firmly to four minutes; otherwise, other members will not be able to speak. I hope you understand that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1770E82P108C710257", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish University for Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26977, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 588.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 588.0, "ID": 26977, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Thomson, Elaine", "ID": 1770, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Thomson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Elaine Thomson (Aberdeen North) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 652.0, "ContributionID": 710257, "EditedText": "It was only two days ago that the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee was told that although Scotland compared favourably with foreign competitors in education qualifications—for example, the number of graduates—we compare very poorly in employee training and continuing to maintain the skill level of the work force. It is essential in today's economic climate that not only those seeking to enter the work force but those currently in work have the opportunity to train, whether to gain new skills or simply to stay abreast of developments. In some types of work the idea of training and retraining throughout a working life has been accepted for some time—science and medicine are examples. In my own experience as an information technology professional, continuing to train is necessary to stay abreast of the ever- increasing rate of change. The technological revolution in telecommunications and information technology is affecting larger and larger numbers of people. Every day we hear more about the internet and the world wide web; for example, the expansion of retailing via the internet for supermarket shopping or purchasing holidays. It is vital that Scotland is able to grasp the opportunities offered by that. The key will be a well-educated and well-trained work force able to understand, apply and develop the technologies. We know that, increasingly, the knowledge that is in people's heads will add to the value of businesses. For those reasons, the publication today of the Scottish Executive's document on the Scottish university for industry can only be welcomed, and it is undoubtedly a step in the right direction of increasing the skill level of the Scottish work force. The university will give all employers and employees a single source from which to identify suitable training and training providers, making that task more straightforward. Today's labour market has changed considerably. The days of people going in to one job and retiring 40 years later have gone for ever. Today, people are likely to have an average of eight different jobs during their working lives. The new jobs that people take may be in completely different sectors of the employment market, and require different skill sets. Lifelong learning is not an optional extra: it is essential. A university for industry will be the first stop for many people, and it will be essential. The university for industry and individual learning accounts will encourage people and allow them to take control of their training and professional development. It is essential that employees increasingly have a say in, and control of, their training requirements: it cannot all be left to employers. The university will be in the best position to perform a number of other tasks, such as gathering labour market information and helping to identify skill shortages. I was particularly happy to hear the minister refer to the learning house in Middlefield. That is an innovative project, and it is an excellent example of the kind of modern learning that should be provided through the university for industry. The importance of establishing the university cannot be overstated. It is likely to be an institution that we will all come in to contact with during our working lives. It will allow Scotland's work force to compete with the best, and give our economy the best possible future.", "EditedTextHTML": "It was only two days ago that the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee was told that although Scotland compared favourably with foreign competitors in education qualifications—for example, the number of graduates—we compare very poorly in employee training and continuing to maintain the skill level of the work force. It is essential in today's economic climate that not only those seeking to enter the work force but those currently in work have the opportunity to train, whether to gain new skills or simply to stay abreast of developments.

In some types of work the idea of training and retraining throughout a working life has been accepted for some time—science and medicine are examples. In my own experience as an information technology professional, continuing to train is necessary to stay abreast of the ever- increasing rate of change. The technological revolution in telecommunications and information technology is affecting larger and larger numbers of people. Every day we hear more about the internet and the world wide web; for example, the expansion of retailing via the internet for supermarket shopping or purchasing holidays. It is vital that Scotland is able to grasp the opportunities offered by that. The key will be a well-educated and well-trained work force able to understand, apply and develop the technologies.

We know that, increasingly, the knowledge that is in people's heads will add to the value of businesses. For those reasons, the publication today of the Scottish Executive's document on the Scottish university for industry can only be welcomed, and it is undoubtedly a step in the right direction of increasing the skill level of the Scottish work force. The university will give all employers and employees a single source from which to identify suitable training and training providers, making that task more straightforward.

Today's labour market has changed considerably. The days of people going in to one job and retiring 40 years later have gone for ever. Today, people are likely to have an average of eight different jobs during their working lives. The new jobs that people take may be in completely

different sectors of the employment market, and require different skill sets. Lifelong learning is not an optional extra: it is essential. A university for industry will be the first stop for many people, and it will be essential. The university for industry and individual learning accounts will encourage people and allow them to take control of their training and professional development. It is essential that employees increasingly have a say in, and control of, their training requirements: it cannot all be left to employers.

The university will be in the best position to perform a number of other tasks, such as gathering labour market information and helping to identify skill shortages. I was particularly happy to hear the minister refer to the learning house in Middlefield. That is an innovative project, and it is an excellent example of the kind of modern learning that should be provided through the university for industry. The importance of establishing the university cannot be overstated. It is likely to be an institution that we will all come in to contact with during our working lives. It will allow Scotland's work force to compete with the best, and give our economy the best possible future.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C710261", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish University for Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26977, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 588.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 588.0, "ID": 26977, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 661.0, "ContributionID": 710261, "EditedText": "If you can do so inside 20 seconds.", "EditedTextHTML": "If you can do so inside 20 seconds.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C710263", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish University for Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26977, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 588.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 588.0, "ID": 26977, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 665.0, "ContributionID": 710263, "EditedText": "I am never averse to being rude to George Lyon, but on this occasion it would be gratuitous. want to be certain that the university for industry has the best location and I think that Crichton College would be best. I ask the minister to give a commitment to visit the college and talk to people there, because I think that it is the right place for the university to be based.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am never averse to being rude to George Lyon, but on this occasion it would be gratuitous. want to be certain that the university for industry has the best location and I think that Crichton College would be best. I ask the minister to give a commitment to visit the college and talk to people there, because I think that it is the right place for the university to be based.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1986E53P206C710268", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish University for Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26977, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 588.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 588.0, "ID": 26977, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeil, Duncan", "ID": 1986, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Greenock and Inverclyde" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan McNeil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McNeil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 676.0, "ContributionID": 710268, "EditedText": "I have sympathy with that point and I will mention some of those issues in my speech. That is the negative side of this matter. Many good initiatives are taking place. From a previous life, I am well aware of the successes of the partnership agreements in the whisky industry, which have training, education and personal development initiatives at their core. The workplace learning centres and the grants for employees provide unskilled and semi-skilled workers with opportunities to escape the dead- end, repetitive work that they are asked to do. The centres allow them to increase their earnings and their job satisfaction. For employers, there is the reward of increased commitment from the work force, increased productivity, improved quality, and success and growth in place of demoralisation and decline. Recently, there was a very important initiative in my constituency. IBM, in partnership with others, is tackling the skills gap. It is a partnership for action. Young people can access IBM, a world- class company. The initiative focuses on information technology and language skills. I have three wishes—", "EditedTextHTML": "I have sympathy with that point and I will mention some of those issues in my speech.

That is the negative side of this matter. Many good initiatives are taking place. From a previous life, I am well aware of the successes of the partnership agreements in the whisky industry, which have training, education and personal development initiatives at their core. The workplace learning centres and the grants for employees provide unskilled and semi-skilled workers with opportunities to escape the dead- end, repetitive work that they are asked to do. The centres allow them to increase their earnings and their job satisfaction. For employers, there is the reward of increased commitment from the work force, increased productivity, improved quality, and success and growth in place of demoralisation and decline.

Recently, there was a very important initiative in my constituency. IBM, in partnership with others, is tackling the skills gap. It is a partnership for action. Young people can access IBM, a world- class company. The initiative focuses on information technology and language skills.

I have three wishes—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1986E53P206C710270", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish University for Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26977, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 588.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 588.0, "ID": 26977, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeil, Duncan", "ID": 1986, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Greenock and Inverclyde" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan McNeil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McNeil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 680.0, "ContributionID": 710270, "EditedText": "I will finish there. I am sorry that I let Mr Swinney intervene.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will finish there. I am sorry that I let Mr Swinney intervene.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2152E53P75C710271", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish University for Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26977, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 588.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 588.0, "ID": 26977, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnston, Nick", "ID": 2152, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nick Johnston", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Nick Johnston (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 683.0, "ContributionID": 710271, "EditedText": "I hope that I can finish as eloquently as Mr McNeil. Like my colleagues, I welcome the main strands of this initiative, while not being entirely sure what I am welcoming. To me, the whole project seems rather woolly and unfocused, but that could be because of my lack of skills—I find it very difficult to wade through waffle. Like my colleagues, I have spoken to academics, who have made the point that this is not a university and that it has little to do with industry. I have spoken to industrialists, who express either bewilderment or indifference. The Scottish Council of National Training Organisations, the national training organisations' umbrella body, says in a paper submitted to the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee: \"The Scottish University for Industry has the potential togive the lead in localised delivery systems, although there seems some danger that it might be restricted to being a telephone help-line to a national database.\" I would like the minister to tell us who in industry he has consulted on this project and what form that consultation took. Might we now examine the responses from business and industry? The minister might also take the trouble to explain why the development team included not one person from business or industry. Instead, the usual suspects have been hovering around to see how they can hoover up any available funding. Apparently, the development team consulted 70 organisations, but only about a dozen have any links with the world of business. The published information makes it clear that SUFI is intended to become self-financing after three years. If that is the case, why is so much of its content based on higher and further education courses and not on industry suppliers of education, even though the latter was indicated as one of SUFI's aims? The SUFI website has a discussion page, on which most of the questions have received answers. One question that has not been answered concerns the possible involvement of private education. Other questions present themselves. Guidance for bids for learning centres has yet to be issued and a guide for the production of SUFI material will not be issued until later in the year. That was supposed to set a house style. Surely providers need that now, so that they can set up courses early. My other concern is that the university for industry in England has set indicative targets of 2.5 million people accessing information services and 600,000 people being involved in programmes by 2002. No such targets seem to have been publicly released for SUFI. The following have all to be finalised: membership plans; the information and communications technology contract; the production of a corporate plan; and how SUFI will link with other learning centres and the national grid for learning. I have some specific questions. How will we avoid the \"second class\" epithet that has been attached for 20 years to institutions such as the Open University? How does the Executive hope to break down academic snobbery about this project? How will the validation of life experience be undertaken, and how will we avoid the diploma disease? I was interested to see in the document a reference to community education. My wife works in community education and has very little information on the Scottish university for industry. The minister may want to take up that point. I am interested in how inquiries will be followed up, so that we can see how people take up the opportunities that are on offer. I am particularly interested in whether the outcomes will be acceptable to business. If those questions are answered to the satisfaction of the business community—", "EditedTextHTML": "I hope that I can finish as eloquently as Mr McNeil.

Like my colleagues, I welcome the main strands of this initiative, while not being entirely sure what I am welcoming. To me, the whole project seems rather woolly and unfocused, but that could be because of my lack of skills—I find it very difficult to wade through waffle.

Like my colleagues, I have spoken to academics, who have made the point that this is not a university and that it has little to do with industry. I have spoken to industrialists, who express either bewilderment or indifference. The Scottish Council of National Training Organisations, the national training organisations' umbrella body, says in a paper submitted to the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee:

\"The Scottish University for Industry has the potential to

give the lead in localised delivery systems, although there seems some danger that it might be restricted to being a telephone help-line to a national database.\"

I would like the minister to tell us who in industry he has consulted on this project and what form that consultation took. Might we now examine the responses from business and industry? The minister might also take the trouble to explain why the development team included not one person from business or industry. Instead, the usual suspects have been hovering around to see how they can hoover up any available funding. Apparently, the development team consulted 70 organisations, but only about a dozen have any links with the world of business.

The published information makes it clear that SUFI is intended to become self-financing after three years. If that is the case, why is so much of its content based on higher and further education courses and not on industry suppliers of education, even though the latter was indicated as one of SUFI's aims?

The SUFI website has a discussion page, on which most of the questions have received answers. One question that has not been answered concerns the possible involvement of private education.

Other questions present themselves. Guidance for bids for learning centres has yet to be issued and a guide for the production of SUFI material will not be issued until later in the year. That was supposed to set a house style. Surely providers need that now, so that they can set up courses early.

My other concern is that the university for industry in England has set indicative targets of

2.5 million people accessing information services and 600,000 people being involved in programmes by 2002. No such targets seem to have been publicly released for SUFI. The following have all to be finalised: membership plans; the information and communications technology contract; the production of a corporate plan; and how SUFI will link with other learning centres and the national grid for learning.

I have some specific questions. How will we avoid the \"second class\" epithet that has been attached for 20 years to institutions such as the Open University? How does the Executive hope to break down academic snobbery about this project? How will the validation of life experience be undertaken, and how will we avoid the diploma disease? I was interested to see in the document a reference to community education. My wife works in community education and has very little information on the Scottish university for industry. The minister may want to take up that point.

I am interested in how inquiries will be followed up, so that we can see how people take up the opportunities that are on offer. I am particularly interested in whether the outcomes will be acceptable to business.

If those questions are answered to the satisfaction of the business community—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1775E171P452C710275", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish University for Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26977, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 588.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 588.0, "ID": 26977, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeod, Fiona", "ID": 1775, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona McLeod", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona McLeod (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 693.0, "ContributionID": 710275, "EditedText": "In line with the spirit of the words on the first page of the document, I would like to impress upon Parliament the fact that, if Scotland is to become a knowledge-driven economy in the next century, it must first become a knowledge-driven society. I welcome the Scottish university for industry development if it will assist in contributing to that aim through the development of lifelong learning in Scotland. I welcome the commitment to use a wide and innovative range of locations—such as libraries, community centres and colleges—as learning centres. However, I remind the Executive that we already have almost 3,000 learning centres in Scotland. They are called schools and they are in the heart of our communities. My concern is increasing that, as various departments and individuals in the Executive hurtle towards the knowledge economy finishing tape, there is, as John Swinney said, a lack of a strategic approach. If SUFI is to enable our communities to participate in, and benefit from, lifelong learning, it needs to be integrated into a coherent strategy. That means that we need an integrated information strategy for Scotland. As a first step, I suggest that we require a national audit on the preparedness of our telecommunications infrastructure for SUFI and the plethora of other initiatives. Are there still pockets of communities without access to digitised telephone exchanges? If so, the vision of lifelong learning being accessed through technology is little more than a pipe dream. As well as facilitating a knowledge-driven society, SUFI should be structured so that it provides an opportunity to manage knowledge, be it that of an individual, a community or society as a whole. One way of achieving that is by creating an electronic learning environment that is accessible by everyone and from everywhere. Coherence and integration are essential if we are to ensure that any person can have access to information, no matter what their social or economic circumstances are or where they live. In providing that access, we must ensure that the right tools are used. The search engines that are employed will be one of the most important tools in the technological environment of SUFI. If we had an integrated information strategy for Scotland, specifications in those technological areas would be clear, and we would not have to look at them individually for each initiative. Copyright is another area where co-ordination and clear guidance are required. That is a complex legal issue, which sometimes baffles even the professionals—I admit that having been one myself. The issue is likely to become more complex, but it has to be considered now, in an integrated fashion. Recently, the Copyright Licensing Agency issued the first digitisation licences, but only to higher education institutions. We must find ways of licensing material in both print and electronic formats if we are to facilitate the widest possible access to information without prohibitive costs. That issue has a bearing on SUFI's ability to commission learning materials. There should be a national strategy that not only assembles the policy framework to manage the development of our information-intensive society, but co-ordinates access, infrastructure and the content of the knowledge economy and society's initiatives. To deliver that strategy, there should be a national body to oversee the creation of our knowledge society. If SUFI is to succeed—and thank goodness the name is being changed; RIP SUFI—in meeting people's aspirations and raising their expectations of what learning can do for them, it must be an integral part of an integrated approach to delivering a knowledge-driven society and economy. I hope that this document is not just another glossy contribution to the imminent information gridlock that Scotland faces.", "EditedTextHTML": "In line with the spirit of the words on the first page of the document, I would like to impress upon Parliament the fact that, if Scotland is to become a knowledge-driven economy in the next century, it must first become a knowledge-driven society. I welcome the Scottish university for industry development if it will assist in contributing to that aim through the development of lifelong learning in Scotland.

I welcome the commitment to use a wide and innovative range of locations—such as libraries, community centres and colleges—as learning centres. However, I remind the Executive that we already have almost 3,000 learning centres in Scotland. They are called schools and they are in the heart of our communities.

My concern is increasing that, as various departments and individuals in the Executive hurtle towards the knowledge economy finishing tape, there is, as John Swinney said, a lack of a strategic approach. If SUFI is to enable our communities to participate in, and benefit from, lifelong learning, it needs to be integrated into a coherent strategy. That means that we need an integrated information strategy for Scotland.

As a first step, I suggest that we require a national audit on the preparedness of our telecommunications infrastructure for SUFI and the plethora of other initiatives. Are there still pockets of communities without access to digitised telephone exchanges? If so, the vision of lifelong learning being accessed through technology is little more than a pipe dream.

As well as facilitating a knowledge-driven society, SUFI should be structured so that it provides an opportunity to manage knowledge, be it that of an individual, a community or society as a whole. One way of achieving that is by creating an electronic learning environment that is accessible by everyone and from everywhere. Coherence and integration are essential if we are to ensure that any person can have access to information, no matter what their social or economic circumstances are or where they live.

In providing that access, we must ensure that the right tools are used. The search engines that are employed will be one of the most important tools in the technological environment of SUFI. If we had an integrated information strategy for Scotland, specifications in those technological areas would be clear, and we would not have to look at them individually for each initiative.

Copyright is another area where co-ordination and clear guidance are required. That is a complex legal issue, which sometimes baffles even the professionals—I admit that having been one myself. The issue is likely to become more complex, but it has to be considered now, in an integrated fashion. Recently, the Copyright Licensing Agency issued the first digitisation licences, but only to higher education institutions. We must find ways of licensing material in both print and electronic formats if we are to facilitate the widest possible access to information without prohibitive costs. That issue has a bearing on SUFI's ability to commission learning materials.

There should be a national strategy that not only assembles the policy framework to manage the development of our information-intensive society, but co-ordinates access, infrastructure and the content of the knowledge economy and society's initiatives. To deliver that strategy, there should be a national body to oversee the creation of our knowledge society. If SUFI is to succeed—and thank goodness the name is being changed; RIP SUFI—in meeting people's aspirations and raising their expectations of what learning can do for

them, it must be an integral part of an integrated approach to delivering a knowledge-driven society and economy.

I hope that this document is not just another glossy contribution to the imminent information gridlock that Scotland faces.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C710281", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish University for Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26977, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 588.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 588.0, "ID": 26977, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 710.0, "ContributionID": 710281, "EditedText": "As the previous two speakers were admirably brief, I will just about manage to get in one more if he or she will also be brief. I call Des McNulty.", "EditedTextHTML": "As the previous two speakers were admirably brief, I will just about manage to get in one more if he or she will also be brief. I call Des McNulty.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C710285", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish University for Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26977, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 588.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 588.0, "ID": 26977, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 720.0, "ContributionID": 710285, "EditedText": "I call Fergus Ewing to wind up for the Scottish National party.", "EditedTextHTML": "I call Fergus Ewing to wind up for the Scottish National party.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1889E118P162C710294", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish University for Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26977, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 588.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 588.0, "ID": 26977, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morrison, Mr Alasdair", "ID": 1889, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Western Isles" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morrison", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Morrison: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 740.0, "ContributionID": 710294, "EditedText": "I am delighted to respond to that question. I refer to something that I mentioned earlier—the learning centre on Barra. We would like that particular situation to be recreated throughout the country. We will establish learning centres in football stadiums and other unconventional arenas. I shall expand on that response in writing to Mr Swinney. A bidding war about the location of the UFI has been going on all afternoon. Elaine Murray, Mike Russell and Euan Robson, among others, made their pitch. The name of the Scottish UFI—SUFI, as it has been called all day—is under consideration and will change in due course. However, the location of the Scottish UFI headquarters is still to be determined. That will be announced shortly. Fergus Ewing said that he struggled through the night with this document. Well, it concerns me that he did, but it makes a refreshing change from Ceefax. Laughter. The Scottish Executive aims to build a new culture of lifelong learning that will cut across traditional boundaries and reach people of all ages, backgrounds and capabilities. Education and training can generate higher earnings and lead to improved prospects and a better quality of life. They can help to build a more cohesive society, in which everyone can benefit from the opportunities that learning brings. For our young people, the Scottish Executive is taking steps to modernise Scottish schools, to raise standards and to achieve excellence. For those who are already in the work force, or who aspire to join it soon, we are committed to widening access to world-class further education and to enabling people of all ages and from every section of the community to enjoy new educational opportunities and lifelong learning. We need to overcome past exclusion and break down the barriers that prevent people from re-engaging, as adults, with the world of education and learning. We are committed to promoting greater social inclusion in Scotland. We want to encourage a society in which everyone, regardless of their personal, economic or geographic circumstances, is able to make the most of the opportunities available. Flexibility and ease of access are fundamental. Ground-breaking lifelong learning initiatives, such as the Scottish university for industry, the national grid for learning and individual learning accounts, will harness the power of information technology by breaking down traditional constraints and creating dynamic new structures which will empower people to fulfil their potential. We are developing thinking on the national framework for individual learning accounts which will offer a way for individuals to invest in their own learning, with input from employers and, in certain targeted groups, from the state. We are committed to having 100,000 ILAs up and running in Scotland by 2002. More than £200 million will be channelled towards the development of the national grid for learning over the next three years. By 2002, all schools will have good internet access and all school pupils will have their own e-mail address. Some £23 million is being spent in Scotland by the new opportunities fund to make training in the use of information and communications technology available to all teachers and school librarians. As far as I know, no other country has attempted a programme on this scale. At the hub of our plans to create a culture of lifelong learning in Scotland is the Scottish university for industry. It will have a central role in motivating learners, telling people what learning is available, explaining particular qualifications, arranging for people to obtain advice on their choice of learning and putting people in touch with a learning provider. For many people considering further learning, obtaining advice and guidance is critical. By taking over responsibility for the learning direct Scotland helpline, the Scottish UFI will take advantage of modern, responsive call-centre technology. The helpline will offer a comprehensive service of information and guidance to callers from across the country, free of charge. People also look for advice and guidance locally, and we recently announced continued funding for adult guidance across Scotland to bring more coherence to the provision of guidance at a local level. A good deal has still to be done before the Scottish UFI is operational next year. That was recognised by my colleague Nicol Stephen in his opening speech. To keep people informed of progress, the development team will issue a series of guides to individuals and organisations wishing to work with the Scottish UFI. In the coming months the Scottish UFI will aim to engage with learning providers, employers, national training organisations and others with a key interest in learning.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am delighted to respond to that question. I refer to something that I mentioned earlier—the learning centre on Barra. We would like that particular situation to be recreated throughout the country. We will establish learning centres in football stadiums and other unconventional arenas. I shall expand on that response in writing to Mr Swinney.

A bidding war about the location of the UFI has been going on all afternoon. Elaine Murray, Mike Russell and Euan Robson, among others, made their pitch. The name of the Scottish UFI—SUFI, as it has been called all day—is under consideration and will change in due course. However, the location of the Scottish UFI headquarters is still to be determined. That will be announced shortly.

Fergus Ewing said that he struggled through the night with this document. Well, it concerns me that he did, but it makes a refreshing change from Ceefax. [Laughter.]

The Scottish Executive aims to build a new culture of lifelong learning that will cut across traditional boundaries and reach people of all ages, backgrounds and capabilities. Education and training can generate higher earnings and lead to improved prospects and a better quality of life. They can help to build a more cohesive society, in which everyone can benefit from the opportunities that learning brings.

For our young people, the Scottish Executive is taking steps to modernise Scottish schools, to raise standards and to achieve excellence. For those who are already in the work force, or who aspire to join it soon, we are committed to widening access to world-class further education and to enabling people of all ages and from every section of the community to enjoy new educational opportunities and lifelong learning. We need to overcome past exclusion and break down the barriers that prevent people from re-engaging, as adults, with the world of education and learning.

We are committed to promoting greater social inclusion in Scotland. We want to encourage a society in which everyone, regardless of their personal, economic or geographic circumstances, is able to make the most of the opportunities available.

Flexibility and ease of access are fundamental. Ground-breaking lifelong learning initiatives, such as the Scottish university for industry, the national grid for learning and individual learning accounts, will harness the power of information technology by breaking down traditional constraints and creating dynamic new structures which will empower people to fulfil their potential. We are developing thinking on the national framework for individual learning accounts which will offer a way for individuals to invest in their own learning, with input from employers and, in certain targeted groups, from the state. We are committed to having 100,000 ILAs up and running in Scotland by 2002.

More than £200 million will be channelled towards the development of the national grid for learning over the next three years. By 2002, all schools will have good internet access and all school pupils will have their own e-mail address. Some £23 million is being spent in Scotland by the new opportunities fund to make training in the use of information and communications technology available to all teachers and school librarians. As far as I know, no other country has attempted a programme on this scale.

At the hub of our plans to create a culture of lifelong learning in Scotland is the Scottish university for industry. It will have a central role in motivating learners, telling people what learning is available, explaining particular qualifications, arranging for people to obtain advice on their choice of learning and putting people in touch with a learning provider.

For many people considering further learning, obtaining advice and guidance is critical. By taking over responsibility for the learning direct Scotland helpline, the Scottish UFI will take advantage of modern, responsive call-centre technology. The helpline will offer a comprehensive service of information and guidance to callers from across the country, free of charge. People also look for advice and guidance locally, and we recently announced continued funding for adult guidance

across Scotland to bring more coherence to the provision of guidance at a local level.

A good deal has still to be done before the Scottish UFI is operational next year. That was recognised by my colleague Nicol Stephen in his opening speech. To keep people informed of progress, the development team will issue a series of guides to individuals and organisations wishing to work with the Scottish UFI. In the coming months the Scottish UFI will aim to engage with learning providers, employers, national training organisations and others with a key interest in learning.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "C710298", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Lead Committee", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26978, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 746.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 746.0, "ID": 26978, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 748.0, "ContributionID": 710298, "EditedText": "That the Parliament agrees the following designation of lead committee—", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament agrees the following designation of lead committee—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C710302", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26979, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 750.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 750.0, "ID": 26979, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 756.0, "ContributionID": 710302, "EditedText": "We have a division. Members should vote now, please.", "EditedTextHTML": "We have a division. Members should vote now, please.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4357978+00:00" }, { "ID": "C710303", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26979, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 750.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 750.0, "ID": 26979, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 758.0, "ContributionID": 710303, "EditedText": "FOR Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)AGAINST Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Godman, Trish ((West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollock) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(Lab)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)Stephen,Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)(LD)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)ABSTENTIONHarper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)

AGAINST

Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish ((West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollock) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(Lab)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen,Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)
(LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)

ABSTENTION

Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)

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" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4514296+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2154E194P299C710338", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Regional Selective Assistance", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26980, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 795.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 795.0, "ID": 26980, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stephen, Nicol", "ID": 2154, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Nicol Stephen", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning (Nicol Stephen): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 823.0, "ContributionID": 710338, "EditedText": "I add my thanks to Allan Wilson for introducing the debate and welcome his support for the new assisted areas map. It was difficult, as we were required by the EU significantly to reduce the percentage of the population that is covered by the map. The approach taken in Scotland, with close targeting using the new council wards rather than travel-to-work areas, has been good. In the five areas covered by RSA priority pilot schemes, it would have left more than 90 per cent of successful RSA projects in place. Allan Wilson asked various questions. I cannot turn round to address him because the microphone is in front of me, but I confirm that no indigenous company has ever been refused RSA because of a competing inward investment. There is considerable flexibility each year in the budget allocated to RSA, which is driven by demand. RSA projects consider job creation. That is one of the criteria central to RSA priority. If high-tech jobs are created, that is all the better as Scotland must look to added value, high technology and the knowledge economy. However, that is not a requirement. Low-tech projects are equally eligible for RSA. On the promotion of RSA priority, I have been told that the department contacted all the key local players in relation to RSA priority: the local enterprise companies, the local authorities and local enterprise trusts. Everyone locally who advises companies should be aware of it. The media launch, which involved Brian Wilson MP— who was then Scottish industry minister—received a great deal of attention. I assume that Allan Wilson's specific comment was about a funded marketing campaign. He is correct that there has been none. There is no question of abandoning RSA priority because the uptake has been low. As will be made clear in my later remarks, uptake has been good for a pilot scheme of this nature. I agree with John Swinney about the complexity of the rules. We need simpler, clearer communication. It is especially important to help growth companies. It is crucial to target assistance in a way that assists the companies with the greatest potential. One of the problems is that we are limited by the EU rules on RSA. I will address ways of encouraging wider and more creative use of RSA later in my speech.On Irene Oldfather's speech, I commend the efforts that are being made—this debate is a good example—to put the problems of north Ayrshire and its high unemployment on the map. I have visited the area on more than one occasion and realise that a great deal has been done in a partnership between the public and private sector to address those problems. Clearly, more requires to be done. Murray Tosh mentioned fine-tuning of the map. Some fine-tuning is being considered, although the extent to which that can be done once the map has been submitted is restricted. The positive side is that some fine-tuning is being considered, but on the negative side, the map must be approved by the EU, so it is possible that the EU could comment critically on our proposals. We await the EU decision with interest. I agree with Cathy Jamieson that more members should be well informed about this subject. I also agree with Fergus Ewing's comments about maximum flexibility. In my formal response, to which I now turn, I will give examples of that. RSA has been a central component of regional policy since its introduction more than two decades ago. Its underlying objective is to encourage industrial development and employment in less prosperous areas. However, strict EU rules—the need for a map is one such— mean that we are constrained. RSA priority is a uniquely Scottish initiative that operates within the RSA scheme. There are no comparable initiatives anywhere else in the UK. Its aim is to give additional employment opportunities to residents of particularly deprived parts of assisted areas. RSA has been operating in the five pilot areas that were mentioned: Glasgow North, Glasgow East End, West Dunbartonshire, Dundee, and three towns in Ayrshire. Under RSA priority, businesses with projects qualifying for RSA are able to secure £3,000 additional grant for each new job filled, but within the overall maximum EU limits. As I mentioned, to date, uptake has been good and broadly as expected. There have been 21 offers of additional RSA priority assistance, on projects involving a total RSA commitment of £3.8 million. The RSA priority element is £453,000. That has offered employment opportunities to an extra 151 residents in the pilot areas. Those numbers are modest. At the local level, they are clearly good news and important for the potential employees, as well as for the areas in which they live. However, it is too early to draw conclusions about the effectiveness of the pilots because of the comparatively small number of projects and the fact that most of the projects that have been offered assistance are now only at the stage of recruiting staff. Where do we go from here? I have been most impressed with the support voiced for the RSA priority initiative. The premium approach, in the form of the extra grant that is given under RSA priority, has produced clear benefit in the pilot areas, in terms of increased job opportunities. I see merit in not merely sustaining the pilots, but building on them. We are, therefore, examining how the RSA scheme might further complement existing social inclusion initiatives that are aimed at improving employment opportunities for those in greatest need. The debate has been particularly timely and interesting. From what I have heard today, there is support for building on RSA priority to bring forward employment opportunities for the socially excluded, not just in the five pilot areas covered by RSA priority, but more widely throughout Scotland. The Scottish Executive is investigating that, but it will not be the subject of an announcement today.", "EditedTextHTML": "I add my thanks to Allan Wilson for introducing the debate and welcome his support for the new assisted areas map. It was difficult, as we were required by the EU significantly to reduce the percentage of the population that is covered by the map. The approach taken in Scotland, with close targeting using the new council wards rather than travel-to-work areas, has been good. In the five areas covered by RSA priority pilot schemes, it would have left more than 90 per cent of successful RSA projects in place.

Allan Wilson asked various questions. I cannot turn round to address him because the microphone is in front of me, but I confirm that no indigenous company has ever been refused RSA because of a competing inward investment. There is considerable flexibility each year in the budget allocated to RSA, which is driven by demand. RSA projects consider job creation. That is one of the criteria central to RSA priority. If high-tech jobs are created, that is all the better as Scotland must look to added value, high technology and the knowledge economy. However, that is not a requirement. Low-tech projects are equally eligible for RSA.

On the promotion of RSA priority, I have been told that the department contacted all the key local players in relation to RSA priority: the local enterprise companies, the local authorities and local enterprise trusts. Everyone locally who advises companies should be aware of it. The media launch, which involved Brian Wilson MP— who was then Scottish industry minister—received a great deal of attention. I assume that Allan Wilson's specific comment was about a funded marketing campaign. He is correct that there has been none.

There is no question of abandoning RSA priority because the uptake has been low. As will be made clear in my later remarks, uptake has been good for a pilot scheme of this nature.

I agree with John Swinney about the complexity of the rules. We need simpler, clearer communication. It is especially important to help growth companies. It is crucial to target assistance in a way that assists the companies with the greatest potential. One of the problems is that we are limited by the EU rules on RSA. I will address ways of encouraging wider and more creative use

of RSA later in my speech.

On Irene Oldfather's speech, I commend the efforts that are being made—this debate is a good example—to put the problems of north Ayrshire and its high unemployment on the map. I have visited the area on more than one occasion and realise that a great deal has been done in a partnership between the public and private sector to address those problems. Clearly, more requires to be done.

Murray Tosh mentioned fine-tuning of the map. Some fine-tuning is being considered, although the extent to which that can be done once the map has been submitted is restricted. The positive side is that some fine-tuning is being considered, but on the negative side, the map must be approved by the EU, so it is possible that the EU could comment critically on our proposals. We await the EU decision with interest.

I agree with Cathy Jamieson that more members should be well informed about this subject. I also agree with Fergus Ewing's comments about maximum flexibility. In my formal response, to which I now turn, I will give examples of that.

RSA has been a central component of regional policy since its introduction more than two decades ago. Its underlying objective is to encourage industrial development and employment in less prosperous areas. However, strict EU rules—the need for a map is one such— mean that we are constrained.

RSA priority is a uniquely Scottish initiative that operates within the RSA scheme. There are no comparable initiatives anywhere else in the UK. Its aim is to give additional employment opportunities to residents of particularly deprived parts of assisted areas. RSA has been operating in the five pilot areas that were mentioned: Glasgow North, Glasgow East End, West Dunbartonshire, Dundee, and three towns in Ayrshire.

Under RSA priority, businesses with projects qualifying for RSA are able to secure £3,000 additional grant for each new job filled, but within the overall maximum EU limits. As I mentioned, to date, uptake has been good and broadly as expected. There have been 21 offers of additional RSA priority assistance, on projects involving a total RSA commitment of £3.8 million. The RSA priority element is £453,000. That has offered employment opportunities to an extra 151 residents in the pilot areas.

Those numbers are modest. At the local level, they are clearly good news and important for the potential employees, as well as for the areas in which they live. However, it is too early to draw conclusions about the effectiveness of the pilots because of the comparatively small number of projects and the fact that most of the projects that have been offered assistance are now only at the stage of recruiting staff.

Where do we go from here? I have been most impressed with the support voiced for the RSA priority initiative. The premium approach, in the form of the extra grant that is given under RSA priority, has produced clear benefit in the pilot areas, in terms of increased job opportunities. I see merit in not merely sustaining the pilots, but building on them. We are, therefore, examining how the RSA scheme might further complement existing social inclusion initiatives that are aimed at improving employment opportunities for those in greatest need.

The debate has been particularly timely and interesting. From what I have heard today, there is support for building on RSA priority to bring forward employment opportunities for the socially excluded, not just in the five pilot areas covered by RSA priority, but more widely throughout Scotland. The Scottish Executive is investigating that, but it will not be the subject of an announcement today.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:15.4514296+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C710336", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Regional Selective Assistance", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26980, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 795.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 795.0, "ID": 26980, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fergus Ewing (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 818.0, "ContributionID": 710336, "EditedText": "I congratulate Allan Wilson on initiating the debate and on his motion. Regional selective assistance is a useful tool to have in one's toolbox to deal with high unemployment. Although I do not represent a constituency in the central belt of Scotland, I can assure everyone that there is high unemployment in many parts of my constituency of Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber. One such area is Kinlochleven, which has been the home of the aluminium company, British Alcan, for many years. Next spring, the British Alcan operation will close down. Kinlochleven was based on the aluminium industry, so its departure will have grave consequences. To be fair to the Government agencies involved, particularly the local enterprise company, and the local councillor, great efforts have been made. My concern about regional selective assistance is that in attracting new employment—whether through inward investors or indigenous businesses—to areas of high unemployment, we find that there are many other barriers to overcome. Generally, locations where there is high unemployment are not seen as the optimum or preferred locations. My plea is that RSA should be applied with the maximum flexibility. I am reminded of a story about an unnamed official of Locate in Scotland whom I met some years ago, who told me that when Scotland and Holland competed to attract inward investment, Scotland lost out. That was because the Dutch equivalent to Locate in Scotland took the rule book, put it to one side, and said to the prospective employer, \"The rule book is over there. Tell us what you want.\" I have a suspicion that that modus operandi might operate in other European countries, too. I hope that the Executive will consider my plea for flexibility in applying RSA. It is a useful tool, but it is by no means the only one that can be used when tackling the serious problem of unemployment.", "EditedTextHTML": "I congratulate Allan Wilson on initiating the debate and on his motion.

Regional selective assistance is a useful tool to have in one's toolbox to deal with high unemployment. Although I do not represent a constituency in the central belt of Scotland, I can assure everyone that there is high unemployment in many parts of my constituency of Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber. One such area is Kinlochleven, which has been the home of the aluminium company, British Alcan, for many years. Next spring, the British Alcan operation will close down. Kinlochleven was based on the aluminium industry, so its departure will have grave consequences. To be fair to the Government agencies involved, particularly the local enterprise company, and the local councillor, great efforts have been made.

My concern about regional selective assistance is that in attracting new employment—whether through inward investors or indigenous businesses—to areas of high unemployment, we find that there are many other barriers to overcome. Generally, locations where there is high unemployment are not seen as the optimum or preferred locations. My plea is that RSA should be applied with the maximum flexibility.

I am reminded of a story about an unnamed official of Locate in Scotland whom I met some years ago, who told me that when Scotland and Holland competed to attract inward investment, Scotland lost out. That was because the Dutch equivalent to Locate in Scotland took the rule book, put it to one side, and said to the prospective employer, \"The rule book is over there. Tell us what you want.\" I have a suspicion that that modus operandi might operate in other European countries, too.

I hope that the Executive will consider my plea for flexibility in applying RSA. It is a useful tool, but it is by no means the only one that can be used when tackling the serious problem of unemployment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:00:05.4949914+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C710277", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish University for Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26977, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 588.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 588.0, "ID": 26977, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 699.0, "ContributionID": 710277, "EditedText": "I start by echoing the sentiments of John Swinney in giving a broad welcome to the progress that has been made in the establishment of the Scottish university for industry. I also welcome the opportunity that today's debate gives us to ask some important questions about the detail of the project. There is no doubt that, as a concept, SUFI is, to use Henry McLeish's words, \"ambitious and innovative\". However, the acid test will be to assess how the jargon of the document—even Labour members would agree that it contains its fair share of jargon—translates into a reality that will add value to the existing provision for the many individuals and organisations that want and need easier and wider access to learning opportunities. I want to reiterate three points that, inevitably at this stage in the debate, have been touched on by other speakers. My first point relates to what is called for in the SNP amendment: rigorous performance measurement. In order to judge the success or failure of the project in coming years, a rigorous and comprehensive system to measure performance must be in place in time for the establishment of SUFI. We need to measure, for example, how many more people, who were previously excluded, are accessing learning opportunities as a result of SUFI. There must be assessment of where those opportunities are being accessed. Similarly, we must assess the success rate of matching learning needs with learning opportunities. There must be careful monitoring of all those things. We also need to monitor the different categories of user that are accessing the service. The document and past parliamentary questions make it clear that one of SUFI's key client groups is the small and medium business sector. No one would take issue with that. I am also concerned that young people, the unemployed and those people whose skills level effectively bans them from entry into the labour market have access to the opportunities offered by SUFI equal to that enjoyed by the business community. That is especially important in areas of high unemployment such as Glasgow, which is the area that I represent. It is extremely important that those things are measured and that mechanisms to ensure that they happen are in place from the beginning. In accepting the amendment, the ministers are acknowledging—I hope that they will now flesh this out—the need to examine how such things are to be measured, so that, in future years, we can take a considered opinion of the practical success of the initiative. My second point is connected to the general issue of access. Like Mr Lyon, I noted in the funding section of the document, that, after 2002, SUFI \"will seek to develop income streams in order to reduce dependency on government funding\". We have heard that the yearly revenue costs of SUFI may reach about £500,000. I want the minister to assure us that there will be no charges for the service over and above the cost of course fees. If there were, I would have serious concerns about access to the opportunities offered by SUFI, particularly in the categories that I have mentioned. Finally, I reiterate the point made by my colleague Mr Swinney on general funding. I want the minister to give a guarantee that the start-up costs are not coming from the hard-pressed budgets of the further education sector because, if that were the case, the problems in that sector would become even worse than they are at the moment.", "EditedTextHTML": "I start by echoing the sentiments of John Swinney in giving a broad welcome to the progress that has been made in the establishment of the Scottish university for industry. I also welcome the opportunity that today's debate gives us to ask some important questions about the detail of the project.

There is no doubt that, as a concept, SUFI is, to use Henry McLeish's words, \"ambitious and innovative\". However, the acid test will be to assess how the jargon of the document—even Labour members would agree that it contains its fair share of jargon—translates into a reality that will add value to the existing provision for the many individuals and organisations that want and need easier and wider access to learning opportunities.

I want to reiterate three points that, inevitably at this stage in the debate, have been touched on by other speakers. My first point relates to what is called for in the SNP amendment: rigorous performance measurement. In order to judge the success or failure of the project in coming years, a rigorous and comprehensive system to measure performance must be in place in time for the establishment of SUFI. We need to measure, for example, how many more people, who were previously excluded, are accessing learning opportunities as a result of SUFI. There must be assessment of where those opportunities are being accessed. Similarly, we must assess the success rate of matching learning needs with learning opportunities. There must be careful monitoring of all those things.

We also need to monitor the different categories of user that are accessing the service. The document and past parliamentary questions make it clear that one of SUFI's key client groups is the small and medium business sector. No one would take issue with that. I am also concerned that young people, the unemployed and those people whose skills level effectively bans them from entry into the labour market have access to the opportunities offered by SUFI equal to that enjoyed by the business community. That is especially important in areas of high unemployment such as Glasgow, which is the area that I represent.

It is extremely important that those things are measured and that mechanisms to ensure that they happen are in place from the beginning. In accepting the amendment, the ministers are acknowledging—I hope that they will now flesh this out—the need to examine how such things are to be measured, so that, in future years, we can take a considered opinion of the practical success of the initiative.

My second point is connected to the general issue of access. Like Mr Lyon, I noted in the funding section of the document, that, after 2002, SUFI

\"will seek to develop income streams in order to reduce dependency on government funding\".

We have heard that the yearly revenue costs of SUFI may reach about £500,000. I want the minister to assure us that there will be no charges for the service over and above the cost of course fees. If there were, I would have serious concerns about access to the opportunities offered by SUFI, particularly in the categories that I have mentioned.

Finally, I reiterate the point made by my colleague Mr Swinney on general funding. I want the minister to give a guarantee that the start-up costs are not coming from the hard-pressed budgets of the further education sector because, if that were the case, the problems in that sector would become even worse than they are at the moment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:00:03.7213861+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C710034", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "European Structural Funds", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26952, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26952, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fergus Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 168.0, "ContributionID": 710034, "EditedText": "Does Mr Wallace think that Mr Hague's particular style of diplomacy in stating to the French that their beef should be banned from the UK would be helpful in arguing the Scottish case in Europe?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does Mr Wallace think that Mr Hague's particular style of diplomacy in stating to the French that their beef should be banned from the UK would be helpful in arguing the Scottish case in Europe?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:01:17.5713192+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C710167", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26955, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 354.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26956, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 355.0, "QuestionHeading": "Rural Development", "QuestionHeadingID": 26967, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 450.0, "DisplayOrder": 450.0, "ID": 26967, "ParentID": 26956 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 457.0, "ContributionID": 710167, "EditedText": "I do not want to get into the specifics of an individual application, but the broad approach that is pursued—through the national planning policy guideline on transport and the rural development national planning policy guideline—is to direct development to the most appropriate places. We recognise that in rural areas, the car is often the most easy and accessible form of transport for many people. The presumption— through the planning system—should be to identify appropriate sites that can promote business development, take most account of existing travel patterns and try to promote development in rural areas.", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not want to get into the specifics of an individual application, but the broad approach that is pursued—through the national planning policy guideline on transport and the rural development national planning policy guideline—is to direct development to the most appropriate places. We recognise that in rural areas, the car is often the most easy and accessible form of transport for many people. The presumption— through the planning system—should be to identify appropriate sites that can promote business development, take most account of existing travel patterns and try to promote development in rural areas.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:14.3101891+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C710174", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26955, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 354.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26956, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 355.0, "QuestionHeading": "Natura 2000 Directive", "QuestionHeadingID": 26968, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 461.0, "DisplayOrder": 461.0, "ID": 26968, "ParentID": 26956 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 472.0, "ContributionID": 710174, "EditedText": "We have suggested candidate special areas of conservation to the EU and are in the middle of a moderation process. The meeting to which Mr Harper referred took place in Kilkee last month. Several issues were raised about the principles of issues attached to sites. We will review our sites and will ask Scottish Natural Heritage to carry out scientific research on the issues that were raised at Kilkee. We will take that evidence into account when proposing a final list of special areas of conservation to the European Union at the next moderation meeting.", "EditedTextHTML": "We have suggested candidate special areas of conservation to the EU and are in the middle of a moderation process.

The meeting to which Mr Harper referred took place in Kilkee last month. Several issues were raised about the principles of issues attached to sites. We will review our sites and will ask Scottish Natural Heritage to carry out scientific research on the issues that were raised at Kilkee. We will take that evidence into account when proposing a final list of special areas of conservation to the European Union at the next moderation meeting.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:14.3101891+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1756E184P464C710279", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish University for Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26977, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 588.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 588.0, "ID": 26977, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Grahame, Christine", "ID": 1756, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Christine Grahame", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 705.0, "ContributionID": 710279, "EditedText": "I want to pick up on what Brian Monteith said about SUFI—as we now seem to be calling it—attracting the derision of academics. That was not the impression that I got when I spoke to Borders College today. It has a student roll, including part-time and evening students, of some 10,000, and has doubled its roll in the past two years. It has welcomed the university for industry and—being a competitive and successful college itself—the opportunities the university gives it. I have two caveats, aspects of which have been addressed. First, the necessary technology is not available and rural areas have particular telecommunications problems. The minister stressed the importance of deprived and rural areas; sometimes they are deprived rural areas. For instance, although Galashiels has ISDN lines, there are none in Newcastleton and other smaller Borders towns and villages, which means that there is no on-line remote video access for students in the area. If this is truly to be a university for all, rural students should have the same facilities as urban students. I am sure that the minister recognises that that would reduce the necessity for rural students to travel to study. Are there any plans to deal with that problem? Are there funds to install the necessary cabling to those areas? Secondly, SUFI should make courses subject to minimum quality standards. The education provider should be monitored to ensure that we do not have charlatans posing as educators and awarding Mickey Mouse awards, which is what happens in the US degree culture. The clients— the students—should also be monitored to find out their satisfaction with the facility. The costs of the operation should also be monitored. Karen Whitefield has put forward plan C and Mike Russell has suggested plan B. I have plan A, which is to locate the university in the Borders— and not just because the Borders has no domestic university. I am told by my technological colleagues that the joint academic network— JANET—lines, which are essential for digital connections, run through the Borders near Galashiels. Locating the university in the Borders would emphasise that access to the university is open to all, whether they are in a conurbation or in the country, and it would boost the economy of an area that deserves better than it has had. The letter to Mr Pignatelli is in the post tonight. By the way, it would be handy if the university was located next to the restored rail link.", "EditedTextHTML": "I want to pick up on what Brian Monteith said about SUFI—as we now seem to be calling it—attracting the derision of academics. That was not the impression that I got when I spoke to Borders College today. It has a student roll, including part-time and evening students, of some 10,000, and has doubled its roll in the past two years. It has welcomed the university for industry and—being a competitive and successful college itself—the opportunities the university gives it.

I have two caveats, aspects of which have been addressed. First, the necessary technology is not available and rural areas have particular telecommunications problems. The minister stressed the importance of deprived and rural areas; sometimes they are deprived rural areas. For instance, although Galashiels has ISDN lines, there are none in Newcastleton and other smaller Borders towns and villages, which means that there is no on-line remote video access for students in the area. If this is truly to be a university for all, rural students should have the same facilities as urban students. I am sure that the minister recognises that that would reduce the necessity for rural students to travel to study. Are there any plans to deal with that problem? Are there funds to install the necessary cabling to those areas?

Secondly, SUFI should make courses subject to minimum quality standards. The education provider should be monitored to ensure that we do not have charlatans posing as educators and awarding Mickey Mouse awards, which is what happens in the US degree culture. The clients— the students—should also be monitored to find out their satisfaction with the facility. The costs of the operation should also be monitored.

Karen Whitefield has put forward plan C and Mike Russell has suggested plan B. I have plan A, which is to locate the university in the Borders— and not just because the Borders has no domestic university. I am told by my technological colleagues that the joint academic network— JANET—lines, which are essential for digital connections, run through the Borders near Galashiels.

Locating the university in the Borders would emphasise that access to the university is open to all, whether they are in a conurbation or in the country, and it would boost the economy of an area that deserves better than it has had. The letter to Mr Pignatelli is in the post tonight. By the way, it would be handy if the university was located next to the restored rail link.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:00:05.3389306+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1756E184P464C710158", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26955, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 354.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26956, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 355.0, "QuestionHeading": "Local Government Finance", "QuestionHeadingID": 26965, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 436.0, "DisplayOrder": 436.0, "ID": 26965, "ParentID": 26956 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Grahame, Christine", "ID": 1756, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Christine Grahame", "SpeakerDisplayName": "9. Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 437.0, "ContributionID": 710158, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what the impact is of the reduction by £1 million in its social work budget made by East Lothian Council as a consequence of reductions in local government funding. (S1O-488) The Deputy Minister for Community Care (Iain Gray): Between last year and this, the total grant-aided expenditure allowances for social work services in East Lothian have increased by around 9 per cent—more than £18 million. GAE allowances are not hypothecated and it is for the council to determine its expenditure plans. East Lothian Council has indicated that it plans to spend £1.2 million more—7 per cent—on social work than it budgeted last year.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what the impact is of the reduction by £1 million in its social work budget made by East Lothian Council as a consequence of reductions in local government funding. (S1O-488) The Deputy Minister for Community Care (Iain Gray): Between last year and this, the total grant-aided expenditure allowances for social work services in East Lothian have increased by around 9 per cent—more than £18 million. GAE allowances are not hypothecated and it is for the council to determine its expenditure plans. East Lothian Council has indicated that it plans to spend £1.2 million more—7 per cent—on social work than it budgeted last year.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:01:40.7395022+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1756E184P464C710159", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26955, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 354.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26956, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 355.0, "QuestionHeading": "Local Government Finance", "QuestionHeadingID": 26965, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 436.0, "DisplayOrder": 436.0, "ID": 26965, "ParentID": 26956 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Grahame, Christine", "ID": 1756, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Christine Grahame", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Christine Grahame: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 439.0, "ContributionID": 710159, "EditedText": "Is the minister aware that in the East Lothian News and in the East Lothian Courier on 25 June 1999, reference was made to savings—a nice way of putting it—of £920,000 in the social work budget? Is the minister aware that, as a consequence of those savings, the Waverley home in Gullane was closed earlier this year and 27 elderly residents were scattered throughout the county to other homes, that the meals on wheels service was discontinued and that a fortnight's supply of frozen food was substituted? That would have had a disastrous effect on the elderly and would have denied them vital human contact. Does the minister agree that that is appalling and affects the most vulnerable? Does he further agree that as 85 per cent of the Labour- administered East Lothian Council's budget comes from the Scottish consolidated fund, for which the Executive is responsible, he bears the responsibility for those cuts to services?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is the minister aware that in the East Lothian News and in the East Lothian Courier on 25 June 1999, reference was made to savings—a nice way of putting it—of £920,000 in the social work budget?

Is the minister aware that, as a consequence of those savings, the Waverley home in Gullane was closed earlier this year and 27 elderly residents were scattered throughout the county to other homes, that the meals on wheels service was discontinued and that a fortnight's supply of frozen food was substituted? That would have had a disastrous effect on the elderly and would have denied them vital human contact.

Does the minister agree that that is appalling and affects the most vulnerable? Does he further agree that as 85 per cent of the Labour- administered East Lothian Council's budget comes from the Scottish consolidated fund, for which the Executive is responsible, he bears the responsibility for those cuts to services?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:01:40.7395022+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C710295", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish University for Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26977, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 588.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 588.0, "ID": 26977, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 742.0, "ContributionID": 710295, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:00:40.118999+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C710331", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Regional Selective Assistance", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26980, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 795.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 795.0, "ID": 26980, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 804.0, "ContributionID": 710331, "EditedText": "I congratulate Allan Wilson on securing the opportunity for a debate on this subject, which I hope will trigger a genuine discussion on how we should tackle issues relating to regional selective assistance. I want to endorse Allan Wilson's point about the availability of and access to the body of information that exists on RSA. It would be fair to say that the economic community in Scotland is a bit deluged, if not bamboozled, by the amount of information that is available. Companies commit a vast amount of time to try to penetrate—to get to the nub of—the information that they require, which often is not available to those hard-pressed companies at particular stages of development. There is a broad view of those matters in the Parliament and there is an obligation on us to examine how we could improve access to the information and advice that exist in Scotland, to assist companies in their development. There must be a debate in Scotland on how we structure the support that we make publicly available to companies. There is a danger that a geographical determination of those issues can skew the pattern and effectiveness of regional selective assistance. A case in my own area has concerned me a great deal, although it is moving towards some form of resolution. Stevens Blinds is a successful company in Brechin in my constituency, employing about 50 people. It develops Venetian blinds and operates in cramped premises in the centre of Brechin, which is in an area that is not without its economic problems, although it is surrounded by areas that do not have quite the same problems. The advice often given to that company over many years has been, \"If you could just move your factory to Arbroath, we would be able to get you a new factory\"—because Arbroath happened to have access to RSA resources. It would have been an unmitigated disaster if the company had followed that advice, as it would have lost its greatest asset: the 50 or so people who walk to work in Brechin. The development of that opportunity was not right for that company and, thankfully, that case is moving to resolution. However, the geographical concentration of RSA can skew our ability to assist successful companies that deliver a lot of employment to our communities to expand in particular areas. I understand Allan's arguments, but we must dig into the debate and find some flexibility to assist the companies that have the most to contribute to the Scottish economy. Finding a mechanism within the area of public assistance to companies to assist their development is another vital point in the debate— we must find the companies that have the greatest potential to expand, be they inward investment companies or indigenous companies. We must find a mechanism to identify the companies that have the most to contribute to employment growth in Scotland, although I openly concede that that will be difficult to devise and that it is a difficult approach for our enterprise companies. However, if we can find that mechanism, we might find that the economic rewards to the Scottish economy are much greater and deliver much more than the simple geographic formula that concentrates RSA. Allan Wilson has triggered an interesting debate and I look forward to hearing other speakers and to seeing where the debate takes us in scrutinising the most effective use of this public resource.", "EditedTextHTML": "I congratulate Allan Wilson on securing the opportunity for a debate on this subject, which I hope will trigger a genuine discussion on how we should tackle issues relating to regional selective assistance.

I want to endorse Allan Wilson's point about the availability of and access to the body of information that exists on RSA. It would be fair to say that the economic community in Scotland is a bit deluged, if not bamboozled, by the amount of information that is available. Companies commit a vast amount of time to try to penetrate—to get to the nub of—the information that they require, which often is not available to those hard-pressed companies at particular stages of development. There is a broad view of those matters in the Parliament and there is an obligation on us to examine how we could improve access to the information and advice that exist in Scotland, to assist companies in their development.

There must be a debate in Scotland on how we structure the support that we make publicly available to companies. There is a danger that a geographical determination of those issues can skew the pattern and effectiveness of regional selective assistance. A case in my own area has concerned me a great deal, although it is moving towards some form of resolution.

Stevens Blinds is a successful company in Brechin in my constituency, employing about 50 people. It develops Venetian blinds and operates in cramped premises in the centre of Brechin, which is in an area that is not without its economic problems, although it is surrounded by areas that do not have quite the same problems.

The advice often given to that company over many years has been, \"If you could just move your factory to Arbroath, we would be able to get you a new factory\"—because Arbroath happened to have access to RSA resources. It would have been an unmitigated disaster if the company had followed that advice, as it would have lost its greatest asset: the 50 or so people who walk to work in Brechin. The development of that opportunity was not right for that company and, thankfully, that case is moving to resolution. However, the geographical concentration of RSA can skew our ability to assist successful companies that deliver a lot of employment to our communities to expand in particular areas. I understand Allan's arguments, but we must dig into the debate and find some flexibility to assist the companies that have the most to contribute to the Scottish economy.

Finding a mechanism within the area of public assistance to companies to assist their development is another vital point in the debate— we must find the companies that have the greatest potential to expand, be they inward investment companies or indigenous companies. We must find a mechanism to identify the companies that have the most to contribute to employment growth in Scotland, although I openly concede that that will be difficult to devise and that it is a difficult approach for our enterprise companies. However, if we can find that mechanism, we might find that the economic rewards to the Scottish economy are much greater and deliver much more than the simple geographic formula that concentrates RSA.

Allan Wilson has triggered an interesting debate and I look forward to hearing other speakers and to seeing where the debate takes us in scrutinising the most effective use of this public resource.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:01:27.8453423+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C710267", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish University for Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26977, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 588.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 588.0, "ID": 26977, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 674.0, "ContributionID": 710267, "EditedText": "On Mr McNeil's point about exporters, a large proportion of small companies in Scotland are disengaged from the exporting process. They are not in contact with the agencies involved in the exporting sector, so they are not encouraged to export. Is there not a similar danger—which should be avoided—in the Scottish university for industry project that the initiative will fail to touch those small companies? Special efforts should be made to ensure that small businesses are incorporated into the thinking behind this venture.", "EditedTextHTML": "On Mr McNeil's point about exporters, a large proportion of small companies in Scotland are disengaged from the exporting process. They are not in contact with the agencies involved in the exporting sector, so they are not encouraged to export. Is there not a similar danger—which should be avoided—in the Scottish university for industry project that the initiative will fail to touch those small companies? Special efforts should be made to ensure that small businesses are incorporated into the thinking behind this venture.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:00:06.6666071+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1783E59P270C710149", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26955, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 354.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26956, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 355.0, "QuestionHeading": "Poverty", "QuestionHeadingID": 26962, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 411.0, "DisplayOrder": 411.0, "ID": 26962, "ParentID": 26956 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Baillie, Jackie", "ID": 1783, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumbarton" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Jackie Baillie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Jackie Baillie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 416.0, "ContributionID": 710149, "EditedText": "Unfortunately, Mr Neil operates on muddled information. We will have distinct targets on devolved aspects of tackling poverty. However, we must be clear and not mislead people by setting distinct targets for areas of policy for which the Executive is not primarily responsible. This is too important an area to fudge. It will take Edinburgh and London working in partnership to ensure that, within a generation, no child will have to grow up in poverty.", "EditedTextHTML": "Unfortunately, Mr Neil operates on muddled information. We will have distinct targets on devolved aspects of tackling poverty. However, we must be clear and not mislead people by setting distinct targets for areas of policy for which the Executive is not primarily responsible. This is too important an area to fudge. It will take Edinburgh and London working in partnership to ensure that, within a generation, no child will have to grow up in poverty.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:32:49.6287351+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C710082", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fisheries Council", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26953, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 257.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 257.0, "ID": 26953, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 275.0, "ContributionID": 710082, "EditedText": "Indeed. Laughter.", "EditedTextHTML": "

Indeed. [Laughter.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:31:43.4808602+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C710239", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 28 Oct 1999", "ID": 4186 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-28T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish University for Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26977, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 588.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 588.0, "ID": 26977, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 613.0, "ContributionID": 710239, "EditedText": "I give a broad welcome to the concept of the Scottish university for industry. The Scottish National party is committed to the principle of widening access to education and learning. What we most want from this debate, and from the work of the Scottish university for industry, is the translation of the high hopes that are contained in this document into some practical action on the ground in our communities. I acknowledge and welcome the support that has been given to assist student access, which was referred to in the partnership document and again in yesterday's publication. We must recognise, however, that the most important issue with which we are still wrestling is the need to tackle the perception of individuals in our community that access to education is expensive. Although the Government has put measures in place to assist people in cases of hardship, the agenda that is being pursued by the Cubie committee is of vital importance in breaking down perceptions that education may be off-limits to some people in our community because of the costs associated with it. The SNP supports the use of technology to access learning, particularly for rural areas. We want to ensure that the measures that the Government proposes in this document—and the many commitments that have been made to expanding the use of technology in the learning process—can be delivered by a cohesive network within Scotland. There are many initiatives under way at the moment and we have genuine concerns that the complexity of initiatives in terms of technological development is not as co-ordinated as it should be. As we go down the route of trying to build a truly national grid for learning in Scotland, I want the Government to take the lead in that process to ensure that all the component initiatives stick together. We are concerned that those issues are not to the fore at present. I give a warm welcome to the concept of locating learning centres in what the minister called nontraditional locations—convenient locations. There is an outreach centre of Perth college in Atholl Road in my constituency. It is part of the University of the Highlands and Islands project and it is easily accessible to my constituents. I compliment the venture that Scottish Power has established and that I have been invited to visit. I intend to take up that invitation to see how, in a workplace environment, that has been done effectively. I am sure that there are many people who have attended Dunfermline Athletic matches who will welcome the opportunity of somewhere else to go, rather than witnessing the horror of what goes on in the football park.", "EditedTextHTML": "I give a broad welcome to the concept of the Scottish university for industry. The Scottish National party is committed to the principle of widening access to education and learning. What we most want from this debate, and from the work of the Scottish university for industry, is the translation of the high hopes that are contained in this document into some practical action on the ground in our communities.

I acknowledge and welcome the support that has been given to assist student access, which was referred to in the partnership document and again in yesterday's publication. We must recognise, however, that the most important issue with which we are still wrestling is the need to tackle the perception of individuals in our community that access to education is expensive. Although the Government has put measures in place to assist people in cases of hardship, the agenda that is being pursued by the Cubie committee is of vital importance in breaking down perceptions that education may be off-limits to some people in our community because of the costs associated with it.

The SNP supports the use of technology to access learning, particularly for rural areas. We

want to ensure that the measures that the Government proposes in this document—and the many commitments that have been made to expanding the use of technology in the learning process—can be delivered by a cohesive network within Scotland. There are many initiatives under way at the moment and we have genuine concerns that the complexity of initiatives in terms of technological development is not as co-ordinated as it should be. As we go down the route of trying to build a truly national grid for learning in Scotland, I want the Government to take the lead in that process to ensure that all the component initiatives stick together. We are concerned that those issues are not to the fore at present.

I give a warm welcome to the concept of locating learning centres in what the minister called nontraditional locations—convenient locations. There is an outreach centre of Perth college in Atholl Road in my constituency. It is part of the University of the Highlands and Islands project and it is easily accessible to my constituents. I compliment the venture that Scottish Power has established and that I have been invited to visit. I intend to take up that invitation to see how, in a workplace environment, that has been done effectively.

I am sure that there are many people who have attended Dunfermline Athletic matches who will welcome the opportunity of somewhere else to go, rather than witnessing the horror of what goes on in the football park.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:33:46.8988034+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C709953", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Telecommunications", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26950, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 153.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 153.0, "ID": 26950, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment (Sarah Boyack): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 205.0, "ContributionID": 709953, "EditedText": "I am very grateful to Nick Johnston for initiating this debate and, given his success rate with members' business so far, I am tempted to take a tour of his area of the world to see what else is lying around there that he is likely to bring up in the future. The debate has been useful. Members' contributions have been informed and thoughtful and that has been useful to the debate. It is important that we discuss this issue, and I am grateful to the Transport and the Environment Committee for the fact that it is conducting an inquiry. It seems to me that that is a classic way for a committee to make a distinctive contribution to the work of our Parliament. It enables us to have a debate such as this in the open and to focus on the issue. I am also happy to be able to explain the Executive's position on the matters that have been raised as quite a few detailed questions asked about what we intend to do. I am happy to take the opportunity to outline what we will do regarding some of the issues. It is clear—and Nick Johnston was absolutely right in his opening remarks—that some of the issues that we are discussing are within the competence of our Parliament. Other issues—for example, those that are to do with health and safety, telecommunications and wireless telegraphy—are reserved to Westminster. We need to take that on board, but it should not prevent us discussing those issues. On the other hand, the planning system and health matters in Scotland are either wholly or partly devolved, so there are particular issues on which we can act. In Scotland we do not gather statistics about the level of growth that there has been in mobile phone installations, but we are all aware that there has been a proliferation of them. That is not, in itself, a problem. The issue of health matters that Nick mentioned, the fact, which Elaine Thomson mentioned, that mobile phone masts seem to appear without notice in some circumstances, and the issue of people not being clear about the planning process are issues that I would like to address in my remarks. First, I will clarify what is meant by permitted development rights, which confuses many people. Permitted development rights were granted through the Telecommunications Act 1984. That meant that telecommunications operators did not need to get planning permission for relatively minor developments. Masts that did not exceed 15 m were allowed permitted development, which meant that in certain areas the developers were able to go ahead without the involvement of the planning authority. The purpose of that exemption was to enable the telecommunications industry to expand. It has certainly done that. Many of the comments made by members this afternoon have been about the balance that must be struck between the expansion of the industry and issues of amenity that must be taken on board. We know that there has been expansion and that the Westminster Government, through Calum Macdonald, conducted a consultation process last year. A range of measures resulted from that consultation and I am keen to introduce them as soon as possible. I do not want to go into the detail of the proposals, but direct questions have been asked today and clarification would be useful. For masts under 15 m, we intend to introduce a 42-day prior approval procedure, which would require telephone operators to notify local authorities that they intend to construct a ground- based mast that is under 15 m in height—masts higher than 15 m already require planning permission. Our proposal would extend the current 28-day procedure by 14 days, which would enable the local authority to consult on the development and inform people about it. Notification would be at the operator's expense and would be done through an advert in the local newspaper. For other equipment that is under 15 m in height—radio housing equipment and so on—a 28-day procedure is proposed. That would require the operator to apply to the planning authority for a decision on whether prior approval is needed for the siting of the development. That would let issues such as amenity to be considered and enable the planning authority to judge what it wanted to say to the operators. Sylvia Jackson suggested that there is a degree of ambiguity. It is important, however, that local authorities are given the opportunity to discuss with the operators what is acceptable in their area.We intend to add sites of special scientific interest to the list of areas where permitted development rights are restricted. That list includes conservation areas and national scenic areas and I, like Keith Raffan, am keen that local authorities should be able to control planning issues in such areas. We want to ensure that the public has more information on the issues involved and that the local authorities can engage in constructive discussions with the operators. The majority of proposals are likely to be acceptable but the public should be able to do something about cases that cause particular concern locally. The onus is on the planning authority and the 28-day and 42-day periods are critical.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am very grateful to Nick Johnston for initiating this debate and, given his success rate with members' business so far, I am tempted to take a tour of his area of the world to see what else is lying around there that he is likely to bring up in the future.

The debate has been useful. Members' contributions have been informed and thoughtful and that has been useful to the debate. It is important that we discuss this issue, and I am grateful to the Transport and the Environment Committee for the fact that it is conducting an inquiry. It seems to me that that is a classic way for a committee to make a distinctive contribution to the work of our Parliament. It enables us to have a debate such as this in the open and to focus on the issue.

I am also happy to be able to explain the Executive's position on the matters that have been raised as quite a few detailed questions asked about what we intend to do. I am happy to take the opportunity to outline what we will do regarding some of the issues.

It is clear—and Nick Johnston was absolutely right in his opening remarks—that some of the issues that we are discussing are within the competence of our Parliament. Other issues—for example, those that are to do with health and safety, telecommunications and wireless telegraphy—are reserved to Westminster. We need to take that on board, but it should not prevent us discussing those issues. On the other hand, the planning system and health matters in Scotland are either wholly or partly devolved, so there are particular issues on which we can act.

In Scotland we do not gather statistics about the level of growth that there has been in mobile phone installations, but we are all aware that there has been a proliferation of them. That is not, in itself, a problem. The issue of health matters that Nick mentioned, the fact, which Elaine Thomson mentioned, that mobile phone masts seem to appear without notice in some circumstances, and the issue of people not being clear about the planning process are issues that I would like to address in my remarks.

First, I will clarify what is meant by permitted development rights, which confuses many people. Permitted development rights were granted through the Telecommunications Act 1984. That meant that telecommunications operators did not need to get planning permission for relatively minor developments. Masts that did not exceed 15 m were allowed permitted development, which meant that in certain areas the developers were able to go ahead without the involvement of the planning authority.

The purpose of that exemption was to enable the telecommunications industry to expand. It has certainly done that. Many of the comments made by members this afternoon have been about the balance that must be struck between the expansion of the industry and issues of amenity that must be taken on board.

We know that there has been expansion and that the Westminster Government, through Calum Macdonald, conducted a consultation process last year. A range of measures resulted from that consultation and I am keen to introduce them as soon as possible. I do not want to go into the detail of the proposals, but direct questions have been asked today and clarification would be useful.

For masts under 15 m, we intend to introduce a 42-day prior approval procedure, which would require telephone operators to notify local authorities that they intend to construct a ground- based mast that is under 15 m in height—masts higher than 15 m already require planning permission. Our proposal would extend the current 28-day procedure by 14 days, which would enable the local authority to consult on the development and inform people about it. Notification would be at the operator's expense and would be done through an advert in the local newspaper.

For other equipment that is under 15 m in height—radio housing equipment and so on—a 28-day procedure is proposed. That would require the operator to apply to the planning authority for a decision on whether prior approval is needed for the siting of the development. That would let issues such as amenity to be considered and enable the planning authority to judge what it wanted to say to the operators. Sylvia Jackson suggested that there is a degree of ambiguity. It is important, however, that local authorities are given the opportunity to discuss with the operators what

is acceptable in their area.

We intend to add sites of special scientific interest to the list of areas where permitted development rights are restricted. That list includes conservation areas and national scenic areas and I, like Keith Raffan, am keen that local authorities should be able to control planning issues in such areas.

We want to ensure that the public has more information on the issues involved and that the local authorities can engage in constructive discussions with the operators. The majority of proposals are likely to be acceptable but the public should be able to do something about cases that cause particular concern locally. The onus is on the planning authority and the 28-day and 42-day periods are critical.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:14.3101891+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C709955", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Telecommunications", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26950, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 153.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 153.0, "ID": 26950, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 209.0, "ContributionID": 709955, "EditedText": "That is right. That is why I said that the onus is on the local authorities. We will issue local authorities with a proposed code that will clarify some of the matters that have been raised today. We need the local authorities to establish procedures whereby these things can be dealt with effectively. We want to enable mobile phone operations to go ahead, but we also want more control over the process and we want the process to be more transparent and accountable. I think that we will be able to deliver that. There have been a number of comments about the impact of mobile phone installations on health. One of the problems is that the planning system was not designed to deal with those matters specifically. We need to re-examine the planning process and health and safety legislation. We should consider the report of the House of Commons Science and Technology Select Committee and the independent research that was initiated by Tessa Jowell. The report stated: \"Validated scientific evidence supports the conclusion that neither mobile phones nor their associated base stations, if they comply with current maximum exposure guidelines—as they appear to do—present a health hazard.\" Those comments appeared at the end of that report. We must examine closely the results of the independent research that is being carried out. I understand that all members of the Scottish Parliament were notified that that was going to take place. We will follow those results with great interest. In the meantime, our new procedures will help the process. They will bring transparency and more clarity to the process, and will, I hope, allay many of the concerns that members have expressed this afternoon.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is right. That is why I said that the onus is on the local authorities.

We will issue local authorities with a proposed code that will clarify some of the matters that have been raised today. We need the local authorities to establish procedures whereby these things can be dealt with effectively. We want to enable mobile phone operations to go ahead, but we also want more control over the process and we want the process to be more transparent and accountable. I think that we will be able to deliver that.

There have been a number of comments about the impact of mobile phone installations on health. One of the problems is that the planning system was not designed to deal with those matters specifically. We need to re-examine the planning process and health and safety legislation. We should consider the report of the House of Commons Science and Technology Select Committee and the independent research that was initiated by Tessa Jowell. The report stated:

\"Validated scientific evidence supports the conclusion that neither mobile phones nor their associated base stations, if they comply with current maximum exposure guidelines—as they appear to do—present a health hazard.\"

Those comments appeared at the end of that report.

We must examine closely the results of the independent research that is being carried out. I understand that all members of the Scottish Parliament were notified that that was going to take place. We will follow those results with great interest. In the meantime, our new procedures will help the process. They will bring transparency and more clarity to the process, and will, I hope, allay many of the concerns that members have expressed this afternoon.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:14.3101891+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1756E184P464C709910", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Domestic Violence", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26948, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 62.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 62.0, "ID": 26948, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Grahame, Christine", "ID": 1756, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Christine Grahame", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 110.0, "ContributionID": 709910, "EditedText": "I come to this debate as a lawyer with 12 years' experience, predominantly as a family lawyer, who has obtained interdicts—sometimes with powers of arrest, sometimes without—for spouses, all of whom were women, and who has also defended, sometimes successfully, male clients against them. Unfortunately, I am therefore well experienced in all the unhappiness that the breakdown of a relationship entails. From the work plan of the Scottish Partnership on Domestic Abuse, under the heading of \"Definition\" on page 5, I recognise a range of clients who have crossed my path and who have suffered the physical abuse of battering through to the psychological abuse of threats, which is equally bad. I know that children of all ages can be witnesses to abuse in most domestic situations, though a cunning partner can perpetrate abuse out of sight of not only neighbours but family. It occurs in all social groups. The worst case of physical abuse I came across was that of a quiet and refined professional woman who had been beaten up by her highly paid executive husband and had hidden the bruises and his hand marks round her throat under a copious sweater. She did not cry in my office, as most women did, and that made her plight all the more awful and compelling, because she was beyond tears. Women therefore come with low morale and no self-esteem, and are fearful. Many cannot cope with detaching themselves from their relationship, especially when faced with the financial and housing implications of separation. Against what I hope is therefore an informed professional background, and from the evidence obtained by the Justice and Home Affairs Committee, of which I am a member, I would like to make the following comments. The first concerns the support services. Some women in these circumstances have a good lawyer, a good general practitioner, a good health visitor, and perhaps personnel assistance at work. If a woman is working, abuse can lead to the loss of her employment. I therefore welcome the intention to ensure that there will be more equitable and less random access to various agencies. I draw the attention of Parliament to the role of the Scottish Legal Aid Board, which is not mentioned as a support service, but which has everything to do with access to justice. It has failings that often let women down when they most need immediate help. The rules by which solicitors have access to legal aid for a client are by no means simple, and the access is by no means swift. While emergency legal aid is available to obtain interdicts and powers of arrest, once those applications are made, a rigorous timetable to complete a full legal aid application form kicks in. Obtaining interdicts is a time-consuming business. The solicitor might have to drop everything else to obtain documents such as medical reports, corroborative statements that will form the basis of affidavits and police precognitions. All that work is quite apart from appearing in court to make representations. Furthermore, the solicitor must often provide emotional support to a very distressed client. I have given out my home phone number only to clients in interdict proceedings. In the middle of such a traumatic situation, the distressed client must complete lengthy forms, including financial forms, for submission to the board. Clients' finances are often in flux, which makes things difficult; or because of their income—which need not be very high—they are denied legal aid from the outset and so cannot fund court proceedings. In addition, the remuneration for civil legal aid work is disgracefully low and many solicitors cannot take on this time-consuming work—though they would wish to do so—because the rest of the firm will not subsidise it. It is plain that the Legal Aid Board rules on domestic violence require review. However, I note that the work plan does not mention the Scottish Legal Aid Board among the organisations involved in domestic abuse issues. The organisation is at the core of access to justice for many abused women and provides the structure by which such women can restructure their lives. I ask the minister to address that particular omission in the work plan.", "EditedTextHTML": "I come to this debate as a lawyer with 12 years' experience, predominantly as a family lawyer, who has obtained interdicts—sometimes with powers of arrest, sometimes without—for spouses, all of whom were women, and who has also defended, sometimes successfully, male clients against them. Unfortunately, I am therefore well experienced in all the unhappiness that the breakdown of a relationship entails. From the work plan of the Scottish Partnership on Domestic Abuse, under the heading of \"Definition\" on page

5, I recognise a range of clients who have crossed my path and who have suffered the physical abuse of battering through to the psychological abuse of threats, which is equally bad.

I know that children of all ages can be witnesses to abuse in most domestic situations, though a cunning partner can perpetrate abuse out of sight of not only neighbours but family. It occurs in all social groups. The worst case of physical abuse I came across was that of a quiet and refined professional woman who had been beaten up by her highly paid executive husband and had hidden the bruises and his hand marks round her throat under a copious sweater. She did not cry in my office, as most women did, and that made her plight all the more awful and compelling, because she was beyond tears. Women therefore come with low morale and no self-esteem, and are fearful. Many cannot cope with detaching themselves from their relationship, especially when faced with the financial and housing implications of separation.

Against what I hope is therefore an informed professional background, and from the evidence obtained by the Justice and Home Affairs Committee, of which I am a member, I would like to make the following comments. The first concerns the support services. Some women in these circumstances have a good lawyer, a good general practitioner, a good health visitor, and perhaps personnel assistance at work. If a woman is working, abuse can lead to the loss of her employment. I therefore welcome the intention to ensure that there will be more equitable and less random access to various agencies.

I draw the attention of Parliament to the role of the Scottish Legal Aid Board, which is not mentioned as a support service, but which has everything to do with access to justice. It has failings that often let women down when they most need immediate help. The rules by which solicitors have access to legal aid for a client are by no means simple, and the access is by no means swift. While emergency legal aid is available to obtain interdicts and powers of arrest, once those applications are made, a rigorous timetable to complete a full legal aid application form kicks in. Obtaining interdicts is a time-consuming business. The solicitor might have to drop everything else to obtain documents such as medical reports, corroborative statements that will form the basis of affidavits and police precognitions. All that work is quite apart from appearing in court to make representations.

Furthermore, the solicitor must often provide emotional support to a very distressed client. I have given out my home phone number only to clients in interdict proceedings. In the middle of such a traumatic situation, the distressed client must complete lengthy forms, including financial forms, for submission to the board. Clients' finances are often in flux, which makes things difficult; or because of their income—which need not be very high—they are denied legal aid from the outset and so cannot fund court proceedings. In addition, the remuneration for civil legal aid work is disgracefully low and many solicitors cannot take on this time-consuming work—though they would wish to do so—because the rest of the firm will not subsidise it.

It is plain that the Legal Aid Board rules on domestic violence require review. However, I note that the work plan does not mention the Scottish Legal Aid Board among the organisations involved in domestic abuse issues. The organisation is at the core of access to justice for many abused women and provides the structure by which such women can restructure their lives. I ask the minister to address that particular omission in the work plan.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:01:31.7066757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1773E197P503C709921", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Domestic Violence", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26948, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 62.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 62.0, "ID": 26948, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hyslop, Fiona", "ID": 1773, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona Hyslop", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona Hyslop (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 134.0, "ContributionID": 709921, "EditedText": "I, too, welcome the debate, the partnership work plan, and the announcement of the much-needed and long-awaited funding. We are in danger of being overcome with consensus. I seem regularly to find myself counting the number of SNP manifesto commitments that pop up as Executive announcements, but I am glad that the doubling of women's refuge places is one of them. As someone who has in this chamber raised the question of refuge places, and who walked with Women's Aid in the march along Princes Street, I am pleased to hear that announcement. This afternoon, we are feeling the power and the breadth of what this Parliament can do to influence the Executive. I am certain that the attendance at, participation in and passion of previous debates in this chamber persuaded those who hold the purse-strings to release the money that was announced today. I want to talk about the amendment and the need to emphasise the Parliament's national role, as this is our first opportunity to vote on this issue. By adopting the amendment, the Parliament can acknowledge its national responsibility and role, and can acknowledge that the partnership, which was set up before the opening of the Parliament, has done some excellent work. We will always need to push this debate further, however great the personal commitment of the ministers. I have some serious concerns about the announcement. The amount of new money that was declared was £8 million. If £2 million of that will come from Scottish Homes in capital funding and £3 million from the Executive, the £3 million match funding must be new money, otherwise the total of £8 million does not add up. The minister should give us an assurance about that. The Scottish Homes money for refuges is capital expenditure; I am concerned about where the staffing resource will come from. In Glasgow, 80 per cent of the funding for refuges comes from housing benefit. Will the minister make representations on Scotland's needs in the current reform of housing benefit? That issue puts into perspective the Parliament's role in the national strategy and debate. In public education and prevention, the word that must be used is respect. Johann Lamont was right to talk about power and relationships between men and women. As parents, men and women have a responsibility—as the mother of a young son, I am very conscious of how he is brought up to think about relationships. The point about women with disabilities was extremely well made by George Reid, as was the point Roseanna Cunningham made about probation schemes. We talk about shelter and support services; I remind the Parliament that there is a shortage of council housing. One of the problems that we will face is how we ensure that refuges are not filled with women who cannot go anywhere else because there is no decent council housing in an area where they have family support. One of the tensions in the debate has been about the role of law enforcement. I congratulate the Justice and Home Affairs Committee on making progress on that and I hope that the Parliament will find the time and space to allow the measure that the committee is considering to come before it. As Maureen Macmillan said, we have to recognise the role of teachers. Their social inclusion role is a hot, topical debate. We talk about 100,000 children and young people living with domestic violence, but if we want the front-line workers to be able to support those children, they have to be properly resourced and supported. The reaction to today's announcement should not be celebratory, as that could risk giving rise to complacency. We should say thank you for the resources, but we cannot be complacent in the face of such a problem. Resources will never be enough until we know that the social changes that are needed nationally match the support that is given locally. That is why we are moving the amendment; we must do everything to create a national social climate in which there is no excuse for domestic abuse.", "EditedTextHTML": "I, too, welcome the debate, the partnership work plan, and the announcement of the much-needed and long-awaited funding. We are in danger of being overcome with consensus. I seem regularly to find myself counting the number of SNP manifesto commitments that pop up as Executive announcements, but I am glad that the doubling of women's refuge places is one of them. As someone who has in this chamber raised the question of refuge places, and who walked with Women's Aid in the march along Princes Street, I am pleased to hear that announcement.

This afternoon, we are feeling the power and the breadth of what this Parliament can do to influence the Executive. I am certain that the attendance at, participation in and passion of previous debates in this chamber persuaded those who hold the purse-strings to release the money that was announced today.

I want to talk about the amendment and the need to emphasise the Parliament's national role, as this is our first opportunity to vote on this issue. By adopting the amendment, the Parliament can acknowledge its national responsibility and role, and can acknowledge that the partnership, which was set up before the opening of the Parliament, has done some excellent work.

We will always need to push this debate further, however great the personal commitment of the ministers. I have some serious concerns about the announcement. The amount of new money that was declared was £8 million. If £2 million of that will come from Scottish Homes in capital funding and £3 million from the Executive, the £3 million match funding must be new money, otherwise the total of £8 million does not add up. The minister should give us an assurance about that. The Scottish Homes money for refuges is capital expenditure; I am concerned about where the staffing resource will come from.

In Glasgow, 80 per cent of the funding for refuges comes from housing benefit. Will the minister make representations on Scotland's needs in the current reform of housing benefit? That issue puts into perspective the Parliament's role in the national strategy and debate.

In public education and prevention, the word that must be used is respect. Johann Lamont was right to talk about power and relationships between men and women. As parents, men and women have a responsibility—as the mother of a young

son, I am very conscious of how he is brought up to think about relationships.

The point about women with disabilities was extremely well made by George Reid, as was the point Roseanna Cunningham made about probation schemes.

We talk about shelter and support services; I remind the Parliament that there is a shortage of council housing. One of the problems that we will face is how we ensure that refuges are not filled with women who cannot go anywhere else because there is no decent council housing in an area where they have family support.

One of the tensions in the debate has been about the role of law enforcement. I congratulate the Justice and Home Affairs Committee on making progress on that and I hope that the Parliament will find the time and space to allow the measure that the committee is considering to come before it.

As Maureen Macmillan said, we have to recognise the role of teachers. Their social inclusion role is a hot, topical debate. We talk about 100,000 children and young people living with domestic violence, but if we want the front-line workers to be able to support those children, they have to be properly resourced and supported.

The reaction to today's announcement should not be celebratory, as that could risk giving rise to complacency. We should say thank you for the resources, but we cannot be complacent in the face of such a problem. Resources will never be enough until we know that the social changes that are needed nationally match the support that is given locally. That is why we are moving the amendment; we must do everything to create a national social climate in which there is no excuse for domestic abuse.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:01:31.7066757+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709865", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Wednesday 27 October 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26945, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26945, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 2.0, "ContributionID": 709865, "EditedText": "THE PRESIDING OFFICER opened the meeting at 14:30", "EditedTextHTML": "[THE PRESIDING OFFICER opened the meeting at 14:30]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709867", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Time for Reflection", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26946, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26946, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "The Reverend Dr Graham K Blount (Scottish Churches Parliamentary Officer) ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Reverend Dr Graham K Blount (Scottish Churches Parliamentary Officer): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 6.0, "ContributionID": 709867, "EditedText": "I will now read some words from Psalms, which express the common ground of Christian and Jewish faith, and from the new hymn book that celebrates the common ground of faith shared by the Scottish Churches: \"If the Lord does not build the house, the work of the builders is useless; if the Lord does not protect the city, the sentries stand guard in vain. In vain you get up earlier, and put off going to bed, sweating to make a living—since he supplies the need of those he loves.\" \"Let us build a house where prophets speakAnd words are strong and true;Where all God's children dare to speak,To dream God's reign anew . . .Built of hopes and dreams and visions . . .Revealed in time and space;Built of tears and cries and laughter,Prayers of faith and songs of grace.Let us build a house where all are named,Their songs and visions heard,And loved and treasured, taught and claimedAs words within the Word.Here the outcast and the strangerBear the image of God's face;Let us bring an end to fear and dangerAll are welcome, all are welcome in this place.\"Let us pray. Living God, the creative spark of your love set our world spinning, and brought us to life; your determined love, your commitment to us, took shape in the back streets of Bethlehem, and soon got entangled in politics; the lively power of your spirit is here and now, lifting us out of ourselves, to new horizons. O Lord, all the world belongs to you, and you are always making all things new; at this time to reflect on a new beginning, we put our trust and our hopes in you; you know what we are made of, and you have trusted us with daunting responsibilities. Strengthen us to meet that challenge—we cannot do it on our own; give us wisdom to understand our nation, its people and their problems; give us compassion to feel their pain and their hopes, and integrity to respond bravely and honestly; let a hunger and thirst for justice be the passion of this place. God of grace, as Parliament, we pray for the people of Scotland, for their common weal and their personal needs, celebrating their rich diversity and knowing that many are hurting. Today especially, we pray for folk caught up in the horror of domestic violence, that we may see beyond words and really make a difference. As people, here and beyond, we pray for our Parliament, offering our faith and our vision, that this may be a place where folk can come when they have no one else to turn to, a place of listening and of healing and of hope. We pray for one another, for folk we see as friends, rivals, colleagues and opponents, aware of the pressures and the failings and the possibilities we share. So may the peace of Christ, which goes beyond our understanding, keep us close to one another and to our God; may the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God and the friendship and fellowship of the Holy Spirit go with us now and always. Amen.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will now read some words from Psalms, which express the common ground of Christian and Jewish faith, and from the new hymn book that celebrates the common ground of faith shared by the Scottish Churches:

\"If the Lord does not build the house, the work of the builders is useless; if the Lord does not protect the city, the sentries stand guard in vain. In vain you get up earlier, and put off going to bed, sweating to make a living—since he supplies the need of those he loves.\"

\"Let us build a house where prophets speak

And words are strong and true;

Where all God's children dare to speak,

To dream God's reign anew . . .

Built of hopes and dreams and visions . . .

Revealed in time and space;

Built of tears and cries and laughter,

Prayers of faith and songs of grace.

Let us build a house where all are named,

Their songs and visions heard,

And loved and treasured, taught and claimed

As words within the Word.

Here the outcast and the stranger

Bear the image of God's face;

Let us bring an end to fear and danger

All are welcome, all are welcome in this place.\"

Let us pray. Living God, the creative spark of your love set our world spinning, and brought us to life; your determined love, your commitment to us, took shape in the back streets of Bethlehem, and soon got entangled in politics; the lively power of your spirit is here and now, lifting us out of ourselves, to new horizons.

O Lord, all the world belongs to you, and you are always making all things new; at this time to reflect on a new beginning, we put our trust and our hopes in you; you know what we are made of, and you have trusted us with daunting responsibilities.

Strengthen us to meet that challenge—we cannot do it on our own; give us wisdom to understand our nation, its people and their problems; give us compassion to feel their pain and their hopes, and integrity to respond bravely and honestly; let a hunger and thirst for justice be the passion of this place.

God of grace, as Parliament, we pray for the people of Scotland, for their common weal and their personal needs, celebrating their rich diversity and knowing that many are hurting. Today especially, we pray for folk caught up in the horror of domestic violence, that we may see beyond words and really make a difference.

As people, here and beyond, we pray for our Parliament, offering our faith and our vision, that this may be a place where folk can come when they have no one else to turn to, a place of listening and of healing and of hope. We pray for one another, for folk we see as friends, rivals, colleagues and opponents, aware of the pressures and the failings and the possibilities we share.

So may the peace of Christ, which goes beyond our understanding, keep us close to one another and to our God; may the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God and the friendship and fellowship of the Holy Spirit go with us now and always. Amen.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709868", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Meningococcal C Immunisation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26947, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26947, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 9.0, "ContributionID": 709868, "EditedText": "The next item of business is an emergency statement by Susan Deacon. The minister will take questions at the end of her statement, so there should be no interventions during it. I draw members' attention to the fact that the promised timing clocks have been installed during the recess and will operate during the statement and debates this afternoon.", "EditedTextHTML": "The next item of business is an emergency statement by Susan Deacon. The minister will take questions at the end of her statement, so there should be no interventions during it.

I draw members' attention to the fact that the promised timing clocks have been installed during the recess and will operate during the statement and debates this afternoon.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C709873", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Meningococcal C Immunisation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26947, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26947, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 20.0, "ContributionID": 709873, "EditedText": "I do not for a moment want to deny Mrs Scanlon's right to put questions to me today. However, I am somewhat disappointed to receive such a qualified welcome for a very important announcement. Most of the points that Mrs Scanlon raised, as I indicated in my answer to Mrs Ullrich's question, do not apply to the meningococcal C vaccine, which is the subject of the announcement today. I have already given assurances on the polysaccharide vaccine that has been made available to students. That is a separate matter. On the issue of the vaccination programme for meningococcal C, I made it clear—not only in relation to our approach to this vaccination programme, but in relation to our approach to the delivery of other major health initiatives throughout Scotland—that we have not drawn up this implementation programme in a vacuum. We have worked closely with practitioners, not only in the NHS in Scotland, but in education; we have also worked with health care practitioners, not only in our hospital environments and GP practices, but in our communities. We have done that so that we can make effective arrangements to deliver this dramatic new improvement for the health of our children. I had hoped that members of all parties would be able to welcome that and would recognise the scale of the task and of our commitment.", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not for a moment want to deny Mrs Scanlon's right to put questions to me today. However, I am somewhat disappointed to receive such a qualified welcome for a very important announcement. Most of the points that Mrs Scanlon raised, as I indicated in my answer to Mrs Ullrich's question, do not apply to the meningococcal C vaccine, which is the subject of the announcement today. I have already given assurances on the polysaccharide vaccine that has been made available to students. That is a separate matter.

On the issue of the vaccination programme for meningococcal C, I made it clear—not only in relation to our approach to this vaccination programme, but in relation to our approach to the delivery of other major health initiatives throughout Scotland—that we have not drawn up this implementation programme in a vacuum. We have worked closely with practitioners, not only in the NHS in Scotland, but in education; we have also worked with health care practitioners, not only in our hospital environments and GP practices, but in our communities. We have done that so that we can make effective arrangements to deliver this dramatic new improvement for the health of our children. I had hoped that members of all parties would be able to welcome that and would recognise the scale of the task and of our commitment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C709875", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Meningococcal C Immunisation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26947, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26947, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 24.0, "ContributionID": 709875, "EditedText": "I feel duty-bound to repeat my answer to the previous question. I am interested to hear that Mrs Scanlon has somehow learned of concerns from GPs about the planning arrangements for this vaccination programme— those issues have not been raised through the proper process and in the proper forum. If Mrs Scanlon's information suggests that there is any weakness in the implementation programme, or if GP representatives have any such suggestion, I would be pleased to hear about it, as would Professor Ritchie, the chairman of the implementation group. I repeat the assurance that I gave earlier: vaccinating more than 1 million young people in Scotland during the next 12 months is a major logistical challenge and we have made every effort, in a process of dialogue with health care professionals, to carry out that monumental exercise effectively.", "EditedTextHTML": "I feel duty-bound to repeat my answer to the previous question. I am interested to hear that Mrs Scanlon has somehow learned of concerns from GPs about the planning arrangements for this vaccination programme— those issues have not been raised through the proper process and in the proper forum. If Mrs Scanlon's information suggests that there is any weakness in the implementation programme, or if GP representatives have any such suggestion, I would be pleased to hear about it, as would Professor Ritchie, the chairman of the implementation group.

I repeat the assurance that I gave earlier: vaccinating more than 1 million young people in Scotland during the next 12 months is a major logistical challenge and we have made every effort, in a process of dialogue with health care professionals, to carry out that monumental exercise effectively.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2185E120P328C709876", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Meningococcal C Immunisation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26947, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26947, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Brown, Robert", "ID": 2185, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robert Brown", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robert Brown (Glasgow) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 26.0, "ContributionID": 709876, "EditedText": "I offer an unqualified welcome for the minister's announcement. To set up this programme within a week of the licence being granted is to set a standard that Susan Deacon's ministerial colleagues will find difficult to follow. I would like to ask for elaboration on one or two points. First, the minister said that support had been given to doctors in the exercise of carrying through this programme. Will she give me a breakdown of what the money has been spent on and the nature of the support that has been given to doctors by the Executive? A fairly considerable work load will be involved in this, on top of existing pressures. Secondly, on the vaccine that has been given to students, will the minister advise the chamber whether there is, in practical terms, any significant difference between the effect of the vaccine that has been offered to people in that age group and the effect of the new vaccine? Is there any requirement for students to be revaccinated, now or in the future?", "EditedTextHTML": "I offer an unqualified welcome for the minister's announcement. To set up this programme within a week of the licence being granted is to set a standard that Susan Deacon's ministerial colleagues will find difficult to follow.

I would like to ask for elaboration on one or two points. First, the minister said that support had been given to doctors in the exercise of carrying through this programme. Will she give me a

breakdown of what the money has been spent on and the nature of the support that has been given to doctors by the Executive? A fairly considerable work load will be involved in this, on top of existing pressures.

Secondly, on the vaccine that has been given to students, will the minister advise the chamber whether there is, in practical terms, any significant difference between the effect of the vaccine that has been offered to people in that age group and the effect of the new vaccine? Is there any requirement for students to be revaccinated, now or in the future?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C709878", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Meningococcal C Immunisation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26947, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26947, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Richard Simpson (Ochil) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 30.0, "ContributionID": 709878, "EditedText": "I am sure that health professionals in Scotland are ready to play their part in this important and ambitious campaign, but what does the minister propose to do to promote caution in relation to meningitis B? Does she intend to work with the National Meningitis Trust, whose campaign has been so helpful in continuing to promote caution?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sure that health professionals in Scotland are ready to play their part in this important and ambitious campaign, but what does the minister propose to do to promote caution in relation to meningitis B? Does she intend to work with the National Meningitis Trust, whose campaign has been so helpful in continuing to promote caution?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C709882", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Meningococcal C Immunisation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26947, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26947, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr David Davidson (North-East Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 38.0, "ContributionID": 709882, "EditedText": "I welcome today's announcement and add my congratulations to Professor Ritchie and the pharmaceutical companies who have worked so hard to bring the vaccination into production so quickly. I hope that the minister will try to answer my questions and will not treat me as she did Mrs Scanlon. The Minister for Finance has already come before the chamber, but the Minister for Health and Community Care has now announced support for a two-year programme. Can we have a commitment to an on-going programme, which will presumably be funded from new money? If it is not to be funded from new money, will the chamber be told what will be pushed aside? I am concerned that the vaccine is very much connected in people's minds with students, but it would also be useful to young people entering places of work, such as shops and factories, and sports clubs. Does the minister propose to extend the polysaccharide vaccination programme to all young people up to the age of 21, particularly as she has just stated that there is a need to top up the vaccine every so often? To take up Dr Richard Simpson's point about meningitis B, what commitment is the minister prepared to make to a programme to look further for a solution to that problem?", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome today's announcement and add my congratulations to Professor Ritchie and the pharmaceutical companies who have worked so hard to bring the vaccination into production so quickly. I hope that the minister will try to answer my questions and will not treat me as she did Mrs Scanlon.

The Minister for Finance has already come before the chamber, but the Minister for Health and Community Care has now announced support for a two-year programme. Can we have a commitment to an on-going programme, which will presumably be funded from new money? If it is not to be funded from new money, will the chamber be told what will be pushed aside?

I am concerned that the vaccine is very much connected in people's minds with students, but it would also be useful to young people entering places of work, such as shops and factories, and sports clubs. Does the minister propose to extend the polysaccharide vaccination programme to all young people up to the age of 21, particularly as she has just stated that there is a need to top up the vaccine every so often?

To take up Dr Richard Simpson's point about meningitis B, what commitment is the minister prepared to make to a programme to look further for a solution to that problem?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C709883", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Meningococcal C Immunisation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26947, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26947, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 40.0, "ContributionID": 709883, "EditedText": "I will deal first with the issue of resources and be crystal clear on the Executive's financial commitment to the programme. The sum of £14 million has been allocated in year 1—the current year—to ensure that we can move ahead speedily and effectively in supplying the vaccine now that it has become available ahead of schedule. This is about priorities. Given that the vaccine has become available ahead of schedule, we have looked long and hard at the health budget this year to ensure that we prioritise this so that our children are properly protected. I was delighted that the Minister for Finance was able to confirm in his financial statement that additional new moneys—a total of £17 million— would be made available for years 2 and 3 of the programme. Our commitment to resourcing this programme is very clear. On extending the existing polysaccharide vaccine programme that has been made available to students, I stress that any decisions on vaccination programmes—not least the MenC programme that I outlined today—have to be taken on the basis of reaching those groups that are at greatest risk. The groups of students that have been targeted this year are those that have been identified as being at greatest risk. The fact that we have been able to offer that vaccine across the country this year is a major step forward. Of course, we continuously review and develop our vaccination programmes, always aiming to have the maximum possible impact on the groups that can most benefit. Similarly, as I said, research continues. I am delighted at this breakthrough and at this step forward, but we will keep moving forward.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will deal first with the issue of resources and be crystal clear on the Executive's financial commitment to the programme. The sum of £14 million has been allocated in year 1—the current year—to ensure that we can move ahead

speedily and effectively in supplying the vaccine now that it has become available ahead of schedule. This is about priorities. Given that the vaccine has become available ahead of schedule, we have looked long and hard at the health budget this year to ensure that we prioritise this so that our children are properly protected.

I was delighted that the Minister for Finance was able to confirm in his financial statement that additional new moneys—a total of £17 million— would be made available for years 2 and 3 of the programme. Our commitment to resourcing this programme is very clear.

On extending the existing polysaccharide vaccine programme that has been made available to students, I stress that any decisions on vaccination programmes—not least the MenC programme that I outlined today—have to be taken on the basis of reaching those groups that are at greatest risk. The groups of students that have been targeted this year are those that have been identified as being at greatest risk. The fact that we have been able to offer that vaccine across the country this year is a major step forward. Of course, we continuously review and develop our vaccination programmes, always aiming to have the maximum possible impact on the groups that can most benefit. Similarly, as I said, research continues. I am delighted at this breakthrough and at this step forward, but we will keep moving forward.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2118E157P454C709884", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Meningococcal C Immunisation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26947, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26947, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Quinan, Mr Lloyd", "ID": 2118, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lloyd Quinan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Lloyd Quinan (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 42.0, "ContributionID": 709884, "EditedText": "I, too, thank the minister for her statement. It is tremendous to know that Scotland will be the first country in the world with complete immunisation. In her statement, the minister makes regular references to full-time first-year students. There appears to be no reference to part-time students who, as is obvious, attend the same university and college buildings as full-time students. Is there any provision for the vaccination of part-time students?", "EditedTextHTML": "I, too, thank the minister for her statement. It is tremendous to know that Scotland will be the first country in the world with complete immunisation.

In her statement, the minister makes regular references to full-time first-year students. There appears to be no reference to part-time students who, as is obvious, attend the same university and college buildings as full-time students. Is there any provision for the vaccination of part-time students?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C709887", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Meningococcal C Immunisation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26947, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26947, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 48.0, "ContributionID": 709887, "EditedText": "If there are outstanding parliamentary questions to be answered, I am happy to look into that, as any member studying the Official Report will be able to see. Along with my colleagues, I receive a considerable volume of parliamentary questions. I am not aware of any outstanding questions, but I am happy to check. However, to avoid confusion among the people whom we represent, I should clarify the fundamental fact that these are two different vaccines. It is very important that we do not confuse the public as a consequence of our political debates in this chamber.", "EditedTextHTML": "If there are outstanding parliamentary questions to be answered, I am happy to look into that, as any member studying the Official Report will be able to see. Along with my colleagues, I receive a considerable volume of parliamentary questions. I am not aware of any outstanding questions, but I am happy to check. However, to avoid confusion among the people whom we represent, I should clarify the fundamental fact that these are two different vaccines. It is very important that we do not confuse the public as a consequence of our political debates in this chamber.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1990E181P340C709888", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Meningococcal C Immunisation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26947, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26947, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robson, Euan", "ID": 1990, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Roxburgh and Berwickshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Euan Robson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Euan Robson (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 50.0, "ContributionID": 709888, "EditedText": "I join in the welcome for the minister's announcement. Would a 17-year-old who is a student be better advised to take the MenC vaccine at home or to take what is available through the university authorities? If that question cannot be answered here, could some advice be given?", "EditedTextHTML": "I join in the welcome for the minister's announcement.

Would a 17-year-old who is a student be better advised to take the MenC vaccine at home or to take what is available through the university authorities? If that question cannot be answered here, could some advice be given?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709890", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Meningococcal C Immunisation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26947, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26947, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 54.0, "ContributionID": 709890, "EditedText": "We will have a very brief last question, from Brian Adam.", "EditedTextHTML": "We will have a very brief last question, from Brian Adam.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C709892", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Meningococcal C Immunisation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26947, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26947, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 58.0, "ContributionID": 709892, "EditedText": "Probably more than anyone here, I am mindful of getting my facts right when talking about GPs. I am happy to give a detailed written response on the precise payment arrangements in this case. As some members will know, GP payment arrangements vary in complexity. I can assure members that GPs will receive a payment for every vaccine given under the new MenC programme.", "EditedTextHTML": "Probably more than anyone here, I am mindful of getting my facts right when talking about GPs. I am happy to give a detailed written response on the precise payment arrangements in this case. As some members will know, GP payment arrangements vary in complexity. I can assure members that GPs will receive a payment for every vaccine given under the new MenC programme.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2122E6P19C709897", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Domestic Violence", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26948, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 62.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 62.0, "ID": 26948, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay", "ID": 2122, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lyndsay McIntosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Lyndsay McIntosh (Central Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 72.0, "ContributionID": 709897, "EditedText": "In opening for my party, I want to say at the outset that I am pleased to support the Scottish Executive's plan to establish a domestic abuse service development fund. I am also pleased that the members' business debate that Maureen Macmillan secured early in this Parliament's life has been recognised by the Executive. I well remember how that debate distinguished itself on several fronts. It was among the first debates at which genuine harmony among the parties was displayed when consensus seemed doomed. So great was the number of members interested in participating that it was the first, and last, members' business debate to have the allocated time extended so that more members could make their contributions. That it was the last debate to be so extended is a point that still rankles, despite subsequent rulings from the Presiding Officer. The debate was poorly reported in the following day's press. Many of us will remember Jackie Baillie's observation that the press gallery was almost empty. It was therefore a surprise to be asked to participate in a political review programme that weekend on the subject of the domestic abuse debate. Parts of the debate were featured and some of the minister's comments were broadcast to a wider audience. That brings me to what I consider to be the crux of today's debate. The interviewer's opening remarks were that there was nothing new or compelling to discuss. I say to that interviewer, \"Shame on you. That's the point.\" Domestic violence and abuse of women and children still happen. As we speak, women are nursing the wounds of a violent encounter with their husbands or partners or, perhaps worse, with former husbands or partners. Children are sitting in school, dreading the bell to go home in case their mummy has had another doin' since they left for school in the morning, and they wonder whether it is their fault. Those are only the wounds that one can see— the burst lips, black eyes, broken noses or strained movements that signify cracked or broken ribs. What about the women whose abuse comes in a subtler form? They suffer constant berating, domination by a man who allows no freedom of thought or deed, or the degradation of submitting to sex acts against their will, and they have to keep quiet so that the weans will not hear. The most important point to remember is that those things are happening daily and that women have to put up with them. There are a number of reasons why women tolerate such abuse. For some it is merely a change of abuser, from a father they wanted to escape to a husband who treats them no better. It is hard to admit that one has made a mistake by marrying or setting up home with a man who abuses one cruelly. Some tolerate it, thinking that things can only get better when they have reached a low point in a relationship, and hope that the next day will see the return of the man they once loved and adored and who would cherish them until they were parted by death. Those women do not realise that their own deaths could be hastened by the same man; we all know that that happens. Of the six cases of deaths caused by domestic violence in Strathclyde since January this year, five were women. There are women who stay because they fear for the safety of their children, who have already seen or heard the horrors that are inflicted on their mother. They will not just leave them to cope with an abusive father; they feel that it is better for them to be the barrier and to defend their children. For those children, home is where the hurt is. There are women who stay because no one will believe that that public paragon, that upstanding member of the community or well-respected and well-connected professional, behaves like a monster in private. Most pitiful are the women who stay because they have nowhere to go. That is the most shameful thing about the subject of the debate. Family and friends do not have spare accommodation and neighbours do not want to get involved. Where does a woman go in the middle of the night with a young family in tow? When a woman takes what is left of her courage and calls the police or makes the decision to go to a refuge, as in biblical times, there is no room at the inn. Women are forced to stay in violent homes, where the hurt is, until there is space in a refuge. Because funding varies from city to city and town to town, the dependability and reliability of space being available is crucial. Housing benefit alone will not pay the bills. There are numerous responsibilities to be attended to, such as insurance, and safety regulations to be complied with. What about outreach work, or counselling for children, or research or training? Let us be blunt about this. Changes in attitude have come about, particularly from the police who, years ago, never got involved in domestic disputes. That situation has, thankfully, changed dramatically, but there is still much work to be done. Organisations such as Women's Aid, Victim Support Scotland and the Zero Tolerance Trust— which recently ran the Respect campaign on young people's attitudes to violence, sex and relationships—all have core funding problems. If ministers are to tackle the funding crisis and to solve the problem of workers not being paid, of women and children in need being turned away, and of getting the message across that help is available, they will have the support of this chamber. I hope that £8 million is just a start. Matched funding comes at a price; there is no guarantee that funding will be matched, and I hope that the minister will respond to that. I pay tribute to the work of Women's Aid and of the other voluntary organisations that offer counselling, advice, advocacy and refuge 24 hours a day when possible. Those organisations represent excellent value for money. They have the expertise and the will to tackle the most unattractive feature of modern life. They help to clear up the mess of failed relationships. I am particularly grateful to Glasgow Women's Aid, which let me visit one of its refuges on Friday and talk to volunteers. Those are dedicated people. Let us support them. I have one concern regarding the otherwise excellent document presented by the Scottish Partnership on Domestic Abuse. The definition concentrates on male abuse of power. For those who have not been following the correspondence in The Herald, one of its contributors has been seeking to persuade readers that the proportion of male victims of domestic violence is similar to that of female victims. To think that men are the only abusers is nonsensical, and I am ready to admit that there are instances of women abusing men. But my experience, to which I shall return in a moment, and the figures of Strathclyde police, witness the fact that 91 per cent of victims of domestic abuse are women and that 15 per cent of them are subjected to repeated acts of violence—out of nearly 7,000 physical attacks, that is more than 1,000 women. That is an appalling statistic. I said that I would return to my own experience of domestic violence—I am not about to confess to being a victim. Before being elected to the Parliament, I sat on the district court bench in the commission area in which I live. I have heard a barrowload of cases of violence and assault; a high proportion of them would be termed domestic. In all the years that I did that, I do not recall hearing one case in which the victim was a man. The worst case that I ever heard was the trial of a man who had assaulted his wife in a horrific manner—the details of which I will spare members—which led to a case in a much higher court. One of the witnesses was their eldest son— a little boy who was barely secondary school age. Because of his tender years and the dreadful nature of the assault, it was agreed that I should clear the court before the wee boy came in to give his evidence. The formalities were slightly relaxed to make it less of an ordeal and less intimidating for him. Imagine, if you will, the thoughts of a little boy having to relive the events leading up to his mother almost being murdered. On that occasion, he was in court to speak to a breach of the peace and to an assault—it would have been wrong for me to hear further details. Not once during the examination in chief, the cross-examination by his father's agent, or the re-examination by the procurator fiscal depute did that little boy look at his father sitting in the dock. His mother sat to the side, out of his line of sight so that he did not see the tears tumbling down her cheeks and she could not see the emptiness in his face or the tears in his eyes. It was harrowing to watch. That case could have been avoided if the woman and her son had had help from any of the support organisations that have been badly funded in the past. It need not have happened. I admit that I was shaken by the experience: members will appreciate that I am still shaken by it. I sincerely hope that my retelling of it will move members sufficiently to ensure that they will do all that they can to stop it happening to any other wee boys. I support the motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "In opening for my party, I want to say at the outset that I am pleased to support the Scottish Executive's plan to establish a domestic abuse service development fund. I am also pleased that the members' business debate that Maureen Macmillan secured early in this Parliament's life has been recognised by the Executive.

I well remember how that debate distinguished itself on several fronts. It was among the first debates at which genuine harmony among the parties was displayed when consensus seemed

doomed. So great was the number of members interested in participating that it was the first, and last, members' business debate to have the allocated time extended so that more members could make their contributions. That it was the last debate to be so extended is a point that still rankles, despite subsequent rulings from the Presiding Officer.

The debate was poorly reported in the following day's press. Many of us will remember Jackie Baillie's observation that the press gallery was almost empty. It was therefore a surprise to be asked to participate in a political review programme that weekend on the subject of the domestic abuse debate. Parts of the debate were featured and some of the minister's comments were broadcast to a wider audience.

That brings me to what I consider to be the crux of today's debate. The interviewer's opening remarks were that there was nothing new or compelling to discuss. I say to that interviewer, \"Shame on you. That's the point.\" Domestic violence and abuse of women and children still happen. As we speak, women are nursing the wounds of a violent encounter with their husbands or partners or, perhaps worse, with former husbands or partners. Children are sitting in school, dreading the bell to go home in case their mummy has had another doin' since they left for school in the morning, and they wonder whether it is their fault.

Those are only the wounds that one can see— the burst lips, black eyes, broken noses or strained movements that signify cracked or broken ribs. What about the women whose abuse comes in a subtler form? They suffer constant berating, domination by a man who allows no freedom of thought or deed, or the degradation of submitting to sex acts against their will, and they have to keep quiet so that the weans will not hear.

The most important point to remember is that those things are happening daily and that women have to put up with them. There are a number of reasons why women tolerate such abuse. For some it is merely a change of abuser, from a father they wanted to escape to a husband who treats them no better. It is hard to admit that one has made a mistake by marrying or setting up home with a man who abuses one cruelly.

Some tolerate it, thinking that things can only get better when they have reached a low point in a relationship, and hope that the next day will see the return of the man they once loved and adored and who would cherish them until they were parted by death. Those women do not realise that their own deaths could be hastened by the same man; we all know that that happens. Of the six cases of deaths caused by domestic violence in Strathclyde since January this year, five were women.

There are women who stay because they fear for the safety of their children, who have already seen or heard the horrors that are inflicted on their mother. They will not just leave them to cope with an abusive father; they feel that it is better for them to be the barrier and to defend their children. For those children, home is where the hurt is.

There are women who stay because no one will believe that that public paragon, that upstanding member of the community or well-respected and well-connected professional, behaves like a monster in private.

Most pitiful are the women who stay because they have nowhere to go. That is the most shameful thing about the subject of the debate. Family and friends do not have spare accommodation and neighbours do not want to get involved. Where does a woman go in the middle of the night with a young family in tow? When a woman takes what is left of her courage and calls the police or makes the decision to go to a refuge, as in biblical times, there is no room at the inn. Women are forced to stay in violent homes, where the hurt is, until there is space in a refuge.

Because funding varies from city to city and town to town, the dependability and reliability of space being available is crucial. Housing benefit alone will not pay the bills. There are numerous responsibilities to be attended to, such as insurance, and safety regulations to be complied with. What about outreach work, or counselling for children, or research or training? Let us be blunt about this. Changes in attitude have come about, particularly from the police who, years ago, never got involved in domestic disputes. That situation has, thankfully, changed dramatically, but there is still much work to be done.

Organisations such as Women's Aid, Victim Support Scotland and the Zero Tolerance Trust— which recently ran the Respect campaign on young people's attitudes to violence, sex and relationships—all have core funding problems.

If ministers are to tackle the funding crisis and to solve the problem of workers not being paid, of women and children in need being turned away, and of getting the message across that help is available, they will have the support of this chamber. I hope that £8 million is just a start. Matched funding comes at a price; there is no guarantee that funding will be matched, and I hope that the minister will respond to that.

I pay tribute to the work of Women's Aid and of the other voluntary organisations that offer counselling, advice, advocacy and refuge 24 hours a day when possible. Those organisations represent excellent value for money. They have the expertise and the will to tackle the most

unattractive feature of modern life. They help to clear up the mess of failed relationships. I am particularly grateful to Glasgow Women's Aid, which let me visit one of its refuges on Friday and talk to volunteers. Those are dedicated people. Let us support them.

I have one concern regarding the otherwise excellent document presented by the Scottish Partnership on Domestic Abuse. The definition concentrates on male abuse of power. For those who have not been following the correspondence in The Herald, one of its contributors has been seeking to persuade readers that the proportion of male victims of domestic violence is similar to that of female victims. To think that men are the only abusers is nonsensical, and I am ready to admit that there are instances of women abusing men. But my experience, to which I shall return in a moment, and the figures of Strathclyde police, witness the fact that 91 per cent of victims of domestic abuse are women and that 15 per cent of them are subjected to repeated acts of violence—out of nearly 7,000 physical attacks, that is more than 1,000 women. That is an appalling statistic.

I said that I would return to my own experience of domestic violence—I am not about to confess to being a victim. Before being elected to the Parliament, I sat on the district court bench in the commission area in which I live. I have heard a barrowload of cases of violence and assault; a high proportion of them would be termed domestic. In all the years that I did that, I do not recall hearing one case in which the victim was a man.

The worst case that I ever heard was the trial of a man who had assaulted his wife in a horrific manner—the details of which I will spare members—which led to a case in a much higher court. One of the witnesses was their eldest son— a little boy who was barely secondary school age. Because of his tender years and the dreadful nature of the assault, it was agreed that I should clear the court before the wee boy came in to give his evidence. The formalities were slightly relaxed to make it less of an ordeal and less intimidating for him.

Imagine, if you will, the thoughts of a little boy having to relive the events leading up to his mother almost being murdered. On that occasion, he was in court to speak to a breach of the peace and to an assault—it would have been wrong for me to hear further details. Not once during the examination in chief, the cross-examination by his father's agent, or the re-examination by the procurator fiscal depute did that little boy look at his father sitting in the dock. His mother sat to the side, out of his line of sight so that he did not see the tears tumbling down her cheeks and she could not see the emptiness in his face or the tears in his eyes. It was harrowing to watch. That case could have been avoided if the woman and her son had had help from any of the support organisations that have been badly funded in the past. It need not have happened.

I admit that I was shaken by the experience: members will appreciate that I am still shaken by it. I sincerely hope that my retelling of it will move members sufficiently to ensure that they will do all that they can to stop it happening to any other wee boys. I support the motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C709918", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Domestic Violence", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26948, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 62.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 62.0, "ID": 26948, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 127.0, "ContributionID": 709918, "EditedText": "I apologise; I cannot give way again.The minister said that £3 million was available. The report has not yet been costed. Obviously, the minister will address funding again when the report comes back, but I have concerns about looking to local authorities for match funding. In the past, match funding for the police service has not always come to fruition. I would like to know what contact the minister has had with local authorities and what assurances she has had that they will match the promised funding. If she can tell us that today, I feel sure that all members will be happy. We are certainly happy with the minister's comments on refuges. I am pleased to say that, in the old days, a Tory-controlled council—Kyle and Carrick District Council—thought that the provision of a women's refuge in Ayr was important. That refuge has gone from strength to strength. It has problems at times, but it is important for those who deal with the problems of domestic violence. As the minister said, there are never enough places, but that was a start, which she said will be built on. I welcome the contact that has been made with Scottish Homes on that.", "EditedTextHTML": "I apologise; I cannot give way again.

The minister said that £3 million was available. The report has not yet been costed. Obviously, the minister will address funding again when the report comes back, but I have concerns about looking to local authorities for match funding. In the past, match funding for the police service has not always come to fruition. I would like to know what contact the minister has had with local authorities and what assurances she has had that they will match the promised funding. If she can tell us that today, I feel sure that all members will be happy.

We are certainly happy with the minister's comments on refuges. I am pleased to say that, in the old days, a Tory-controlled council—Kyle and Carrick District Council—thought that the provision of a women's refuge in Ayr was important. That refuge has gone from strength to strength. It has problems at times, but it is important for those who deal with the problems of domestic violence. As the minister said, there are never enough places, but that was a start, which she said will be built on. I welcome the contact that has been made with Scottish Homes on that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1820E139P227C709902", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Domestic Violence", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26948, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 62.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 62.0, "ID": 26948, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Curran, Margaret", "ID": 1820, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Baillieston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Curran", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Margaret Curran (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 86.0, "ContributionID": 709902, "EditedText": "I have been involved in the debate on domestic violence for about 20 years. It is gratifying to see how far it has shifted and to have this debate in the Parliament so early in its life. I would like to pay tribute to Roseanna—who is not in the chamber, unfortunately—and to Lyndsay for their speeches. We can genuinely share ownership of this problem, and that gives us great hope. We have to be clear about the realities. recently met members of Greater Easterhouse Women's Aid, which is based in my constituency. They drew my attention to a deep problem. I will quote from their evidence, in which they said: \"Domestic abuse is insidious; it creeps up on you over a period of time. The abuser isolates you from family and friends, minimises and denies what is happening. He keeps you exhausted both emotionally and physically. He threatens you, degrades you and displays his total power.\" We acknowledge that we have been moving forward in this debate, but that very progress has raised other difficulties about the demand for women's aid services, for which there is now an expectation. The funding package announced by the Deputy Minister for Communities is extremely welcome, because of the chronic shortfall that we have experienced in the service over past years. The demand on Greater Easterhouse Women's Aid has increased by 398 per cent over the past four years—63 per cent over the past year alone. The group also asks us to give attention to the practices of police, housing bodies, social work departments and others who can, even unwittingly, operate against the wishes of women and children who are resisting violence. It is proper to recognise again the progress that has been made by the police and others, but a woman exhausted by abuse, terrified of impoverishing her children, leaving her home and, worst of all, losing her children, does not want to get caught in the system. We know that such women will frequently minimise the violence for fear of losing their children. We must create public services that can win the confidence of women and ensure that they are not penalised for the violence that is perpetrated against them. We must be careful about too often glibly asking why a woman did not leave. Sometimes, it is not so easy. We should not make her decision harder with sweeping statements about the inadequacy of single-parent families. I welcome the statements that have been made here today. I have spent a political lifetime arguing for the equality of men and women in political representation, and I am very proud that we have two women ministers committed to advancing this agenda. I hope that this is just the beginning, because we have much work to do. Much has been made of the Zero Tolerance Trust's research and contribution. We have to listen to its analysis. I will quote Evelyn Gillan, who recently gave MSPs a presentation, because it was very strong stuff. She said that \"the Parliament must make the links between different forms of male violence. We need to be clear about what it is we are trying to prevent and that means facing up to some difficult truths. The overwhelming majority of violent acts are perpetrated by men, most of whom are known to the women; women and children have very little control over the violence that invades their lives; and whilst home is the safest place for men, it is the least safe place for women and children. If we see male violence as a social problem which reflects wider values and attitudes then we believe change is possible.\" I urge the Executive to think not just in terms of the costs of implementing this strategy, but in terms of savings. Public services spend a great deal of money picking up the pieces. That money would be better spent on preventive services. The Executive has, properly, pledged to tackle crime as a top priority. In Scotland, everyone should have the right to live free from violence. We can never achieve that unless we comprehensively tackle domestic abuse. Across the chamber, we are deeply committed to the health service because we all know that it saves lives. I recently met Joyce, a woman from my constituency. She told me that she is quite sure that, had it not been for her local Women's Aid group, she would have lost her life. She now helps run such a service, to save the lives of other women in greater Easterhouse. We cannot underestimate the critical contribution that such services make. I welcome the Executive's announcement today but please, this is just the beginning.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have been involved in the debate on domestic violence for about 20 years. It is gratifying to see how far it has shifted and to have this debate in the Parliament so early in its life. I would like to pay tribute to Roseanna—who is not in the chamber, unfortunately—and to Lyndsay for their speeches. We can genuinely share ownership of this problem, and that gives us great hope.

We have to be clear about the realities. recently met members of Greater Easterhouse Women's Aid, which is based in my constituency. They drew my attention to a deep problem. I will quote from their evidence, in which they said:

\"Domestic abuse is insidious; it creeps up on you over a period of time. The abuser isolates you from family and

friends, minimises and denies what is happening. He keeps you exhausted both emotionally and physically. He threatens you, degrades you and displays his total power.\"

We acknowledge that we have been moving forward in this debate, but that very progress has raised other difficulties about the demand for women's aid services, for which there is now an expectation.

The funding package announced by the Deputy Minister for Communities is extremely welcome, because of the chronic shortfall that we have experienced in the service over past years. The demand on Greater Easterhouse Women's Aid has increased by 398 per cent over the past four years—63 per cent over the past year alone. The group also asks us to give attention to the practices of police, housing bodies, social work departments and others who can, even unwittingly, operate against the wishes of women and children who are resisting violence.

It is proper to recognise again the progress that has been made by the police and others, but a woman exhausted by abuse, terrified of impoverishing her children, leaving her home and, worst of all, losing her children, does not want to get caught in the system. We know that such women will frequently minimise the violence for fear of losing their children.

We must create public services that can win the confidence of women and ensure that they are not penalised for the violence that is perpetrated against them. We must be careful about too often glibly asking why a woman did not leave. Sometimes, it is not so easy. We should not make her decision harder with sweeping statements about the inadequacy of single-parent families.

I welcome the statements that have been made here today. I have spent a political lifetime arguing for the equality of men and women in political representation, and I am very proud that we have two women ministers committed to advancing this agenda. I hope that this is just the beginning, because we have much work to do.

Much has been made of the Zero Tolerance Trust's research and contribution. We have to listen to its analysis. I will quote Evelyn Gillan, who recently gave MSPs a presentation, because it was very strong stuff. She said that

\"the Parliament must make the links between different forms of male violence. We need to be clear about what it is we are trying to prevent and that means facing up to some difficult truths.

The overwhelming majority of violent acts are perpetrated by men, most of whom are known to the women; women and children have very little control over the violence that invades their lives; and whilst home is the safest place for men, it is the least safe place for women and children.

If we see male violence as a social problem which reflects wider values and attitudes then we believe change is possible.\"

I urge the Executive to think not just in terms of the costs of implementing this strategy, but in terms of savings. Public services spend a great deal of money picking up the pieces. That money would be better spent on preventive services. The Executive has, properly, pledged to tackle crime as a top priority. In Scotland, everyone should have the right to live free from violence. We can never achieve that unless we comprehensively tackle domestic abuse.

Across the chamber, we are deeply committed to the health service because we all know that it saves lives. I recently met Joyce, a woman from my constituency. She told me that she is quite sure that, had it not been for her local Women's Aid group, she would have lost her life. She now helps run such a service, to save the lives of other women in greater Easterhouse. We cannot underestimate the critical contribution that such services make.

I welcome the Executive's announcement today but please, this is just the beginning.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1840E82P158C709904", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Domestic Violence", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26948, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 62.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 62.0, "ID": 26948, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macmillan, Maureen", "ID": 1840, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Maureen Macmillan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Maureen Macmillan (Highlands and Islands) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 92.0, "ContributionID": 709904, "EditedText": "I am pleased to welcome the document on domestic abuse and the partnership's funding package. What pleases me most is that the challenge to domestic violence is underlined—it is no longer something that is peripheral and can be ignored by the establishment. We—the women and men of this Parliament—can with authority say to the people of Scotland, to Scottish institutions, to local authorities, to those in urban areas and to those in rural areas that this is a grave problem that must be tackled seriously and systematically, and that we will be listened to. The funding package means that we can create more refuge places where they are needed. I particularly welcome the commitment to doing that in rural areas. In my constituency in the Highland Council area, there are less than half the recommended number of refuge spaces, and a huge mainland area north of Dingwall and west of Inverness has no local provision. However, since our first debate on domestic violence and because of the Executive's commitment, there is a new confidence among the women in that area. Highland Council has plans for a new refuge in Ross-shire and—I am glad to say—it will have disabled access, which is something that we have long been concerned about. In Caithness, our raising of awareness of domestic violence has meant that women have been encouraged to form groups that want to set up a refuge in Thurso. Refuges, however, cannot exist in a vacuum. As Jackie Baillie said, new women's groups need to be trained by experienced experts in supporting women and children, such as Women's Aid. Women cannot stay in refuges for ever and I am pleased that the involvement of Scottish Homes will mean that housing will be available for women to move on to. It is very important that in places where groups seek to set up refuges, funding is available for them. I also welcome the commitment to education for children of pre-school age upwards. It has, in the past, been extremely difficult to gain access to schools in some areas as that has depended on the attitudes of particular teachers or principal teachers. That, too, is changing, but I ask local authorities to realise that there are organisations such as the Zero Tolerance Trust and Women's Aid that have a great deal of expertise in providing education programmes. It is also crucial that schools have strategies for supporting children from violent homes—kids who truant so that they can protect their mothers and kids who cannot do their homework because of what goes on in their houses at night. Kids who must change schools need specific attention, as Michael Matheson said. Finally, I want to mention strengthening protection for women. It can be very difficult for a woman to leave her abuser because she is often deeply afraid of him and rightly fears—as we know from statistics—that she will be in greater danger if she leaves. Half of the women killed in Scotland are killed by their ex-partners, as Janis Hughes said. The law gives inadequate protection and the Justice and Home Affairs Committee has been examining ways of extending the present protection given to married women and to some cohabitees. The present protection—as Nora Radcliffe said—is given through the Matrimonial Homes (Family Protection) (Scotland) Act 1981. It provides for an interdict with powers of arrest to be granted to women who are in danger, but that depends on the woman's and her partner's rights to occupancy of the matrimonial home. The Justice and Home Affairs Committee hopes to introduce soon a simple bill that separates that protection of interdict with powers of arrest from rights of occupancy of the matrimonial home. The committee wants to do that as quickly as possible because, first, it will send out a strong message that there are no second-class citizens when it comes to protection from violence and, secondly, it will save lives. Women are being killed by violent ex-partners and we must do all we can to stop that happening. Since September, the Justice and Home Affairs Committee has been taking evidence from organisations such as Women's Aid, the Scottish Family Law Association, the Scottish Police Federation and the Sheriffs Association. It is agreed across the board that legislation is urgently required and I hope that we will soon be able to present a bill to Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am pleased to welcome the document on domestic abuse and the partnership's funding package.

What pleases me most is that the challenge to domestic violence is underlined—it is no longer something that is peripheral and can be ignored by the establishment. We—the women and men of this Parliament—can with authority say to the people of Scotland, to Scottish institutions, to local authorities, to those in urban areas and to those in rural areas that this is a grave problem that must be tackled seriously and systematically, and that we will be listened to.

The funding package means that we can create more refuge places where they are needed. I particularly welcome the commitment to doing that in rural areas. In my constituency in the Highland Council area, there are less than half the recommended number of refuge spaces, and a huge mainland area north of Dingwall and west of Inverness has no local provision. However, since our first debate on domestic violence and because of the Executive's commitment, there is a new confidence among the women in that area.

Highland Council has plans for a new refuge in Ross-shire and—I am glad to say—it will have disabled access, which is something that we have long been concerned about. In Caithness, our raising of awareness of domestic violence has meant that women have been encouraged to form groups that want to set up a refuge in Thurso.

Refuges, however, cannot exist in a vacuum. As Jackie Baillie said, new women's groups need to be trained by experienced experts in supporting women and children, such as Women's Aid. Women cannot stay in refuges for ever and I am pleased that the involvement of Scottish Homes will mean that housing will be available for women to move on to. It is very important that in places where groups seek to set up refuges, funding is available for them.

I also welcome the commitment to education for children of pre-school age upwards. It has, in the past, been extremely difficult to gain access to schools in some areas as that has depended on the attitudes of particular teachers or principal teachers. That, too, is changing, but I ask local authorities to realise that there are organisations such as the Zero Tolerance Trust and Women's

Aid that have a great deal of expertise in providing education programmes.

It is also crucial that schools have strategies for supporting children from violent homes—kids who truant so that they can protect their mothers and kids who cannot do their homework because of what goes on in their houses at night. Kids who must change schools need specific attention, as Michael Matheson said.

Finally, I want to mention strengthening protection for women. It can be very difficult for a woman to leave her abuser because she is often deeply afraid of him and rightly fears—as we know from statistics—that she will be in greater danger if she leaves. Half of the women killed in Scotland are killed by their ex-partners, as Janis Hughes said.

The law gives inadequate protection and the Justice and Home Affairs Committee has been examining ways of extending the present protection given to married women and to some cohabitees. The present protection—as Nora Radcliffe said—is given through the Matrimonial Homes (Family Protection) (Scotland) Act 1981. It provides for an interdict with powers of arrest to be granted to women who are in danger, but that depends on the woman's and her partner's rights to occupancy of the matrimonial home.

The Justice and Home Affairs Committee hopes to introduce soon a simple bill that separates that protection of interdict with powers of arrest from rights of occupancy of the matrimonial home. The committee wants to do that as quickly as possible because, first, it will send out a strong message that there are no second-class citizens when it comes to protection from violence and, secondly, it will save lives. Women are being killed by violent ex-partners and we must do all we can to stop that happening.

Since September, the Justice and Home Affairs Committee has been taking evidence from organisations such as Women's Aid, the Scottish Family Law Association, the Scottish Police Federation and the Sheriffs Association. It is agreed across the board that legislation is urgently required and I hope that we will soon be able to present a bill to Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709919", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Domestic Violence", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26948, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 62.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 62.0, "ID": 26948, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 129.0, "ContributionID": 709919, "EditedText": "Mr Gallie, your time is up.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Gallie, your time is up.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C709920", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Domestic Violence", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26948, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 62.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 62.0, "ID": 26948, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 131.0, "ContributionID": 709920, "EditedText": "Thank you, Presiding Officer. support the motion and the amendment. Let us make sure that the good work that has been done is continued to a fruitful end.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you, Presiding Officer. support the motion and the amendment. Let us make sure that the good work that has been done is continued to a fruitful end.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1931E120P189C709909", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Domestic Violence", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26948, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 62.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 62.0, "ID": 26948, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Muldoon, Bristow", "ID": 1931, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Livingston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bristow Muldoon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bristow Muldoon (Livingston) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 107.0, "ContributionID": 709909, "EditedText": "First, I welcome the commitment shown by the Executive in addressing this issue in the Parliament at this early stage. I also welcome the additional funding that was announced today as part of the domestic abuse service development fund. It is encouraging that the Parliament is uniting behind the issue and accepting the amendment moved by Roseanna Cunningham. The support from Conservative and Liberal Democrat members is also encouraging. We have talked about consensus in the Parliament and, while there are issues upon which we will never agree, it is a sign of the Parliament's maturity that we do not try to create artificial divisions on issues about which we can agree. Today's debate, and the previous debate on the subject initiated by Maureen Macmillan, are fine examples of how we can take a consensual approach when the issue demands it. Before I turn to my own comments, I want to address some remarks made by Mike Rumbles. I also endorse the comments made by Johann Lamont. Domestic abuse in Scotland, and throughout the world, is primarily the result of male violence against women. That is because of issues of economic or physical power and a range of reasons such as the cultures within our society. We must reflect that and deal with the issue. In my experience at West Lothian Council, and since I became a member of the Scottish Parliament, I have dealt, like many others, with many harrowing cases. Sometimes the women involved in those cases have been helped by public services, but on many occasions those services and voluntary organisations have not been able to provide the support that the women required. As part of this whole initiative, it is critical that we ensure that that does not occur in future. When people come forward with problems, we must ensure that public resources, pubic services and voluntary organisation support are all in place to help them through those problems. The issue that I want to focus on is the one that I think is the most important in this whole debate— education. Many members have mentioned the recent report on the zero tolerance campaign. It highlights the attitudes towards violence and sexual violence by men against women, and it highlights the degree of the problem in our society. We will not eradicate domestic violence or sexual violence unless we can change people's core beliefs. That is why I am glad that a significant proportion of Jackie Baillie's contribution was on the question of education and changing the culture. However, the issue is not only about changing the culture among the perpetrators of domestic violence; we also need to change the culture in all our public organisations. Some of the attitudes of the legal system towards questions of domestic violence have caused me concern recently. One of the key things that this Parliament has to do is to get a clear message through to the legal profession—to the judiciary, to sheriffs—that domestic violence is unacceptable. We have to do that through debates such as this one and, in due course, through legislation. We have only a short time today, so, in conclusion, I very much welcome the co-ordinated approach that Jackie outlined between the various public agencies, involving organisations such as Women's Aid. I know from my area that strong partnerships have already developed. I am sure that they will soon be ready to bring forward proposals to call on the resources that have been announced today. Domestic violence and domestic abuse are not unique to Scotland. However, today we can start to help to lead towards one of the greatest achievements that this Parliament could deliver to the people of Scotland—the elimination of domestic abuse in our communities.", "EditedTextHTML": "First, I welcome the commitment shown by the Executive in addressing this issue in the Parliament at this early stage. I also welcome the additional funding that was announced today as part of the domestic abuse service development fund.

It is encouraging that the Parliament is uniting behind the issue and accepting the amendment moved by Roseanna Cunningham. The support from Conservative and Liberal Democrat members is also encouraging. We have talked about consensus in the Parliament and, while there are issues upon which we will never agree, it is a sign of the Parliament's maturity that we do not try to create artificial divisions on issues about which we can agree. Today's debate, and the previous debate on the subject initiated by Maureen Macmillan, are fine examples of how we can take a consensual approach when the issue demands it.

Before I turn to my own comments, I want to address some remarks made by Mike Rumbles. I also endorse the comments made by Johann Lamont. Domestic abuse in Scotland, and throughout the world, is primarily the result of male violence against women. That is because of issues of economic or physical power and a range of reasons such as the cultures within our society. We must reflect that and deal with the issue.

In my experience at West Lothian Council, and since I became a member of the Scottish Parliament, I have dealt, like many others, with many harrowing cases. Sometimes the women involved in those cases have been helped by public services, but on many occasions those services and voluntary organisations have not been able to provide the support that the women required. As part of this whole initiative, it is critical that we ensure that that does not occur in future.

When people come forward with problems, we must ensure that public resources, pubic services and voluntary organisation support are all in place to help them through those problems.

The issue that I want to focus on is the one that I think is the most important in this whole debate— education. Many members have mentioned the recent report on the zero tolerance campaign. It highlights the attitudes towards violence and sexual violence by men against women, and it highlights the degree of the problem in our society. We will not eradicate domestic violence or sexual violence unless we can change people's core beliefs. That is why I am glad that a significant proportion of Jackie Baillie's contribution was on the question of education and changing the culture.

However, the issue is not only about changing the culture among the perpetrators of domestic violence; we also need to change the culture in all our public organisations. Some of the attitudes of the legal system towards questions of domestic violence have caused me concern recently. One of the key things that this Parliament has to do is to get a clear message through to the legal profession—to the judiciary, to sheriffs—that domestic violence is unacceptable. We have to do that through debates such as this one and, in due course, through legislation.

We have only a short time today, so, in conclusion, I very much welcome the co-ordinated approach that Jackie outlined between the various public agencies, involving organisations such as Women's Aid. I know from my area that strong partnerships have already developed. I am sure that they will soon be ready to bring forward proposals to call on the resources that have been announced today.

Domestic violence and domestic abuse are not unique to Scotland. However, today we can start to help to lead towards one of the greatest achievements that this Parliament could deliver to the people of Scotland—the elimination of domestic abuse in our communities.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1762E216P508C709913", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Domestic Violence", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26948, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 62.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 62.0, "ID": 26948, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Elder, Dorothy-Grace", "ID": 1762, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 117.0, "ContributionID": 709913, "EditedText": "Will Mr Gallie accept an interruption?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr Gallie accept an interruption?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C709916", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Domestic Violence", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26948, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 62.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 62.0, "ID": 26948, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 123.0, "ContributionID": 709916, "EditedText": "I accept those points—it was my intention to address funding. I have reservations about funding, because a week or two ago Mr McConnell told us that additional money would be put into the drugs enforcement agency, but last week it was announced that that money was perhaps being diverted from the Prison Service. I am talking about a co-operative approach to this issue—the police, the Prison Service and individuals are all involved.", "EditedTextHTML": "I accept those points—it was my intention to address funding. I have reservations about funding, because a week or two ago Mr McConnell told us that additional money would be put into the drugs enforcement agency, but last week it was announced that that money was perhaps being diverted from the Prison Service. I am talking about a co-operative approach to this issue—the police, the Prison Service and individuals are all involved.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709926", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26949, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 143.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 143.0, "ID": 26949, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 146.0, "ContributionID": 709926, "EditedText": "Amendment agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709929", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26949, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 143.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 143.0, "ID": 26949, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 150.0, "ContributionID": 709929, "EditedText": "That the Parliament supports the final Workplan prepared by the Scottish Partnership on Domestic Abuse and welcomes the establishment by the Scottish Executive of a Domestic Abuse Service Development Fund to improve local arrangements for assisting women and children who are victims of domestic abuse while at the same time recognising that a national strategy which includes public education and prevention programmes, shelter and support services and law enforcement initiatives remains an essential part of the campaign.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament supports the final Workplan prepared by the Scottish Partnership on Domestic Abuse and welcomes the establishment by the Scottish Executive of a Domestic Abuse Service Development Fund to improve local arrangements for assisting women and children who are victims of domestic abuse while at the same time recognising that a national strategy which includes public education and prevention programmes, shelter and support services and law enforcement initiatives remains an essential part of the campaign.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709933", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Telecommunications", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26950, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 153.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 153.0, "ID": 26950, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 157.0, "ContributionID": 709933, "EditedText": "That the Parliament notes the proliferation of telecommunication masts in mid Scotland and Fife and the recent report of the House of Commons Science and Technology Committee into mobile phones and telecommunications.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament notes the proliferation of telecommunication masts in mid Scotland and Fife and the recent report of the House of Commons Science and Technology Committee into mobile phones and telecommunications.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C709943", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Telecommunications", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26950, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 153.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 153.0, "ID": 26950, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 181.0, "ContributionID": 709943, "EditedText": "I am minded to accept that motion. Can you give me an idea of how much time is required? Thirty minutes, perhaps?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am minded to accept that motion. Can you give me an idea of how much time is required? Thirty minutes, perhaps?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C709937", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Telecommunications", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26950, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 153.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 153.0, "ID": 26950, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Keith Raffan (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 168.0, "ContributionID": 709937, "EditedText": "I do not want to repeat the points that have already been made, but I wish to congratulate Nick Johnston on obtaining this members' debate. I also congratulate him on quoting a Liberal Democrat, Phil Willis, who, in the House of Commons, has been in the vanguard of campaigning on the issues—particularly the health issues—related to mobile phones. I want to comment on the House of Commons Science and Technology Committee report. There is no doubt that there are increasing scares about the use of mobile phones. The report makes clear the concerns of the Science and Technology Committee, although it does not say much that is new. However, in response to the report, the Government has set up an expert group on mobile phones, which is due to report early next year. Research must be on-going. The mobile phone companies—through the charges that they impose on us—have made huge profits in recent years, because of the amazing growth in the use of mobile phones. It is in their interests to allay public fears as soon as possible. I hope that we will get on-going—if not conclusive—research that will ultimately prove that mobile phones are not damaging. I want to discuss planning, which is an important issue. It has been discussed in terms of Kinross, in particular, but I know that fellow members for Mid Scotland and Fife will be aware that the issue extends beyond Kinross. One of the problems in Scotland is mobile phone coverage. That is increasing all the time. I used to be based in the village of Forgandenny, just south of Perth, where my mobile phone did not work. As soon as I drove over the hill, on the way to Perth, the phone would start ringing to let me know that I had numerous messages. The operators are keen to extend coverage so that reception is available throughout Scotland. There will be an increasing tendency to put up masts, because of the obvious difficulties in the terrain. Those masts are likely to be erected in areas of outstanding natural beauty. I use that phrase not in the technical and legal sense, but to describe areas whose natural beauty is outstanding, some of which will be protected and others that will not. It is important that the Parliament's committees and the Scottish Executive move on the issue. Nick Johnston's motion had to be redrafted because, as he and Elaine Smith said, without permission, operators can erect masts up to 15 m high, which is an anomaly. That loophole should be closed as soon as possible. I do not know whether we can act retrospectively, but I do not want to see such masts springing up throughout other parts of the region, particularly in Perthshire and the Highlands, where current mobile phone coverage is poor. In the near future, coverage will be expanded in such areas, and will result in the appearance of those intrusions—or, as they were rightly called, pollutions—in the landscape. We must move forward on the health and planning issues in tandem. I share concerns about the health issues, which have had increasing publicity in recent years. One of the first people thought to have been a victim of mobile phones was a former chairman of the United States Republican party, who was a regular mobile phone user and who suffered from a brain tumour. That was why the British media first highlighted the health issues surrounding mobile phones. There are increasing concerns about that, which need to be addressed.", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not want to repeat the points that have already been made, but I wish to congratulate Nick Johnston on obtaining this members' debate. I also congratulate him on quoting a Liberal Democrat, Phil Willis, who, in the House of

Commons, has been in the vanguard of campaigning on the issues—particularly the health issues—related to mobile phones.

I want to comment on the House of Commons Science and Technology Committee report. There is no doubt that there are increasing scares about the use of mobile phones. The report makes clear the concerns of the Science and Technology Committee, although it does not say much that is new. However, in response to the report, the Government has set up an expert group on mobile phones, which is due to report early next year. Research must be on-going.

The mobile phone companies—through the charges that they impose on us—have made huge profits in recent years, because of the amazing growth in the use of mobile phones. It is in their interests to allay public fears as soon as possible. I hope that we will get on-going—if not conclusive—research that will ultimately prove that mobile phones are not damaging.

I want to discuss planning, which is an important issue. It has been discussed in terms of Kinross, in particular, but I know that fellow members for Mid Scotland and Fife will be aware that the issue extends beyond Kinross. One of the problems in Scotland is mobile phone coverage. That is increasing all the time. I used to be based in the village of Forgandenny, just south of Perth, where my mobile phone did not work. As soon as I drove over the hill, on the way to Perth, the phone would start ringing to let me know that I had numerous messages.

The operators are keen to extend coverage so that reception is available throughout Scotland. There will be an increasing tendency to put up masts, because of the obvious difficulties in the terrain. Those masts are likely to be erected in areas of outstanding natural beauty. I use that phrase not in the technical and legal sense, but to describe areas whose natural beauty is outstanding, some of which will be protected and others that will not. It is important that the Parliament's committees and the Scottish Executive move on the issue.

Nick Johnston's motion had to be redrafted because, as he and Elaine Smith said, without permission, operators can erect masts up to 15 m high, which is an anomaly. That loophole should be closed as soon as possible. I do not know whether we can act retrospectively, but I do not want to see such masts springing up throughout other parts of the region, particularly in Perthshire and the Highlands, where current mobile phone coverage is poor. In the near future, coverage will be expanded in such areas, and will result in the appearance of those intrusions—or, as they were rightly called, pollutions—in the landscape.

We must move forward on the health and planning issues in tandem. I share concerns about the health issues, which have had increasing publicity in recent years. One of the first people thought to have been a victim of mobile phones was a former chairman of the United States Republican party, who was a regular mobile phone user and who suffered from a brain tumour. That was why the British media first highlighted the health issues surrounding mobile phones. There are increasing concerns about that, which need to be addressed.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1873E89P171C709938", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Telecommunications", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26950, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 153.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 153.0, "ID": 26950, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jackson, Dr Sylvia", "ID": 1873, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Stirling" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sylvia Jackson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Sylvia Jackson (Stirling) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 171.0, "ContributionID": 709938, "EditedText": "I thank Nick Johnston. This is a heated issue for most members, who will have been approached by constituents who have seen a mast being erected close to them—an obvious concern. An article in The Guardian, from 20 October, examined the recent and rapid development of mobile phones, suggesting that one in four people currently own a mobile phone. As we know only too well, the mobile phone masts are a necessary part of that expansion. No one wants to stand in the way of technological progress and it is a balancing act to keep abreast of developments while taking on board the important issues that have been raised this evening. One such issue is public concern, about which Elaine Smith spoke at length. I will jump some points, as many of them have been covered already. Although it has been reported that about half the 32 local authorities in Scotland are adopting precautionary practice policies, half of them are left with no guiding principles, which is quite scandalous. The Scottish Parliament information centre's briefing paper details how many countries, including the USA, Sweden and so on, have taken precautionary steps against the siting of transmitters because of public concerns about the health issues. The Minister for Transport and the Environment has stated that a Scotland-wide code of best practice will be developed; I want to hear from her about the time scale of some of those developments. As Nick said, we welcome the establishment by the Department of Health of the independent expert group on mobile phones, which will conduct a rigorous assessment. However, I take on board what he said about the involvement of the NRPB. There is a great lack of planning regulations. The suggested proposals seem too ambiguous and ad hoc, and leave it too much to chance whether the local authority will take up a planning issue. I urge the minister to examine seriously how we can put more rigour into the prior planning proposals that have been suggested. We await the findings of the independent expert group. While some of the issues are being dealt with at Westminster level, we should take some initiatives in Scotland, both at the prior approval stage and by bringing into operation the precautionary principle. I urge the minister not only to consider those issues but to give us a time scale for what will happen in future.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank Nick Johnston. This is a heated issue for most members, who will have been approached by constituents who have seen a mast being erected close to them—an obvious concern.

An article in The Guardian, from 20 October, examined the recent and rapid development of mobile phones, suggesting that one in four people currently own a mobile phone. As we know only too well, the mobile phone masts are a necessary part of that expansion. No one wants to stand in the way of technological progress and it is a balancing act to keep abreast of developments while taking on board the important issues that have been raised this evening. One such issue is public concern, about which Elaine Smith spoke at length.

I will jump some points, as many of them have been covered already.

Although it has been reported that about half the 32 local authorities in Scotland are adopting precautionary practice policies, half of them are left with no guiding principles, which is quite scandalous. The Scottish Parliament information centre's briefing paper details how many countries, including the USA, Sweden and so on, have taken precautionary steps against the siting of transmitters because of public concerns about the health issues. The Minister for Transport and the Environment has stated that a Scotland-wide code of best practice will be developed; I want to hear from her about the time scale of some of those developments.

As Nick said, we welcome the establishment by the Department of Health of the independent expert group on mobile phones, which will conduct a rigorous assessment. However, I take on board what he said about the involvement of the NRPB. There is a great lack of planning regulations. The suggested proposals seem too ambiguous and ad hoc, and leave it too much to chance whether the local authority will take up a planning issue. I urge the minister to examine seriously how we can put more rigour into the prior planning proposals that have been suggested.

We await the findings of the independent expert group. While some of the issues are being dealt with at Westminster level, we should take some initiatives in Scotland, both at the prior approval stage and by bringing into operation the precautionary principle. I urge the minister not only to consider those issues but to give us a time scale for what will happen in future.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C709939", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Telecommunications", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26950, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 153.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 153.0, "ID": 26950, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ms Patricia Ferguson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 173.0, "ContributionID": 709939, "EditedText": "While we are reaching the point where the debate should come to a close, a number of members have indicated that they wish to speak in the debate.", "EditedTextHTML": "While we are reaching the point where the debate should come to a close, a number of members have indicated that they wish to speak in the debate.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C709945", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Telecommunications", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26950, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 153.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 153.0, "ID": 26950, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 185.0, "ContributionID": 709945, "EditedText": "I will accept the motion, if that is acceptable to members. That does not mean that we must run on until 6 o'clock, but it will give other members an opportunity to speak.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will accept the motion, if that is acceptable to members. That does not mean that we must run on until 6 o'clock, but it will give other members an opportunity to speak.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C709946", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Telecommunications", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26950, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 153.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 153.0, "ID": 26950, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie (Lothians) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 187.0, "ContributionID": 709946, "EditedText": "On a point of order. It is my understanding that the Presiding Officer said the other day that there would be no extensions to adjournment debates and that the domestic violence debate that was extended was, if you like, an exception. Is not that correct, or are we going back on that policy?", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. It is my understanding that the Presiding Officer said the other day that there would be no extensions to adjournment debates and that the domestic violence debate that was extended was, if you like, an exception. Is not that correct, or are we going back on that policy?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709948", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Telecommunications", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26950, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 153.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 153.0, "ID": 26950, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 191.0, "ContributionID": 709948, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C709951", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Telecommunications", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26950, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 153.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 153.0, "ID": 26950, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Richard Simpson (Ochil) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 199.0, "ContributionID": 709951, "EditedText": "I want to address a couple of issues. First, I want to give some examples from my and Dr Jackson's constituencies. We had a telecommunication mast, a base mast, erected by the M9 motorway, near Lecropt church. Anyone who has driven up that motorway, towards the Keir roundabout, will remember this excrescence being placed in front of what was a listed building. Fortunately, the rules that were created said that if the mast caused problems with a listed building, it was possible to do something about it. The campaign resulted in the mast being removed. It is not always impossible, with local support, to run a successful campaign. More important than the removal of the mast was the consequence. In conjunction with Scottish Natural Heritage, the masts were replaced with synthetic pine trees at the Keir roundabout. I would invite members to look at that. They are a nice addition to the arboreal scenery in the area.I cannot understand why, if it is possible to do that in rural areas, it has not been possible elsewhere. Driving down the motorway from the Keir roundabout towards where the Edinburgh and Glasgow motorways divide at Pirnhall, motorists will see a positive plethora of masts. Even at the time, the original guidance, formulated under the Conservative Administration, when the development of this technology was, quite rightly, encouraged, said that the masts should not be clustered in such a way and that companies should co-operate to make the masts joint or whatever. There is no evidence that that has happened. It seems to me that there should be an opportunity for local authorities to say, \"We will have a mast, but the masts should be together in an area.\" That is the second example. The third example, which has been mentioned already, has been raised with me by a number of constituents. That is the Kinross issue. Nick Johnston, whom I congratulate on this motion, is one of my constituents. He may well complain to me about this mast which, I am glad to say, Bruce Crawford said is a disgrace. It represents the real problem, as the local authority had to interpret the planning consents in a particular way. That mast was a replacement mast and the way that the legislation is written means that an existing mast can apparently be replaced without any great planning consent or restrictions. This is not a 15 m mast. It is much taller than that and it looks appalling. All those aspects of the legislation must be addressed, and I hope that they will be. The other public concern is about health. We must divide the issue of mobile phones from that of base masts. The thermal radiation from mobile phones, which are held close to the head, is close to the skull and the brain. For children, I strongly advocate to parents that the precautionary principle should apply. We should not encourage children to use mobile phones. However much it is the cool thing to do, it may not be cool, it may be rather hot and may cause significant problems. On the base masts, we do not know exactly what the situation is because low-intensity radiation may have significant effects of which we are not aware. The NRPB, in defining the current regulations, has considered only one part of the safety regulations. It has dealt with that appropriately, but there are other areas that this new expert committee will address. I welcome the fact that, to my knowledge, 12—Sylvia says 16— authorities have adopted a principle whereby, for the moment, no more masts should be erected within 200 m of schools. That is a reasonable precaution until the results are produced. We must be cautious around schools, play areas and other areas where there are large numbers of children. I welcome this debate and hope that the minister will respond to some of the points that have been raised.", "EditedTextHTML": "I want to address a couple of issues. First, I want to give some examples from my and Dr Jackson's constituencies. We had a telecommunication mast, a base mast, erected by the M9 motorway, near Lecropt church. Anyone who has driven up that motorway, towards the Keir roundabout, will remember this excrescence being placed in front of what was a listed building.

Fortunately, the rules that were created said that if the mast caused problems with a listed building, it was possible to do something about it. The campaign resulted in the mast being removed. It is not always impossible, with local support, to run a successful campaign. More important than the removal of the mast was the consequence. In conjunction with Scottish Natural Heritage, the masts were replaced with synthetic pine trees at the Keir roundabout. I would invite members to look at that. They are a nice addition to the

arboreal scenery in the area.

I cannot understand why, if it is possible to do that in rural areas, it has not been possible elsewhere. Driving down the motorway from the Keir roundabout towards where the Edinburgh and Glasgow motorways divide at Pirnhall, motorists will see a positive plethora of masts. Even at the time, the original guidance, formulated under the Conservative Administration, when the development of this technology was, quite rightly, encouraged, said that the masts should not be clustered in such a way and that companies should co-operate to make the masts joint or whatever. There is no evidence that that has happened. It seems to me that there should be an opportunity for local authorities to say, \"We will have a mast, but the masts should be together in an area.\" That is the second example.

The third example, which has been mentioned already, has been raised with me by a number of constituents. That is the Kinross issue. Nick Johnston, whom I congratulate on this motion, is one of my constituents. He may well complain to me about this mast which, I am glad to say, Bruce Crawford said is a disgrace. It represents the real problem, as the local authority had to interpret the planning consents in a particular way. That mast was a replacement mast and the way that the legislation is written means that an existing mast can apparently be replaced without any great planning consent or restrictions. This is not a 15 m mast. It is much taller than that and it looks appalling. All those aspects of the legislation must be addressed, and I hope that they will be.

The other public concern is about health. We must divide the issue of mobile phones from that of base masts. The thermal radiation from mobile phones, which are held close to the head, is close to the skull and the brain. For children, I strongly advocate to parents that the precautionary principle should apply. We should not encourage children to use mobile phones. However much it is the cool thing to do, it may not be cool, it may be rather hot and may cause significant problems.

On the base masts, we do not know exactly what the situation is because low-intensity radiation may have significant effects of which we are not aware. The NRPB, in defining the current regulations, has considered only one part of the safety regulations. It has dealt with that appropriately, but there are other areas that this new expert committee will address. I welcome the fact that, to my knowledge, 12—Sylvia says 16— authorities have adopted a principle whereby, for the moment, no more masts should be erected within 200 m of schools. That is a reasonable precaution until the results are produced. We must be cautious around schools, play areas and other areas where there are large numbers of children.

I welcome this debate and hope that the minister will respond to some of the points that have been raised.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1783E59P270C709895", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Domestic Violence", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26948, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 62.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 62.0, "ID": 26948, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Baillie, Jackie", "ID": 1783, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumbarton" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Jackie Baillie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Communities (Jackie Baillie): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 66.0, "ContributionID": 709895, "EditedText": "I am delighted to move the motion on behalf of the Scottish Executive. I am especially pleased that once again the Parliament has an opportunity to debate a topic that is rightfully one of the top priorities of the Executive. Many members will recall the members' business debate secured by Maureen Macmillan on 2 September—indeed, such was the interest and commitment that a motion was passed to extend the debate for a further half hour. What struck me then—and I think that those who attended the debate will agree—was the enormous amount of cross-party support in our Parliament for the important work being developed by the partnership to improve the range and standards of provision in Scotland for women and children experiencing domestic abuse. In that same spirit of consensus, the Executive will accept the Opposition's amendment. The amendment outlines the exact work programme of the Scottish Partnership on Domestic Abuse, and we have no difficulty in supporting its sentiments. However, I want to make a plea that, when we talk about these issues, we move on from campaigning rhetoric to discuss the reality of the strategic action that the Parliament and the Executive are beholden to take. That aside, I am pleased to accept the amendment. All of us continue to be shocked at the extent of domestic abuse and at the real and disturbing effect that such violence has on children who are caught up in it. However, domestic abuse is not peculiar to Scotland, nor is it a modern-day phenomenon. Sadly, the problem has been rooted in society for centuries and has an international dimension. We have an opportunity—indeed, a responsibility—to create a climate in Scotland that will not tolerate violence, particularly domestic violence. Many years before coming into Parliament, Iworked in a voluntary capacity for women's groups and I was, and still am, a great supporter of organisations such as Women's Aid, Rape Crisis and the Zero Tolerance Trust. The services provided by some of those organisations are often an oasis in a desert of despair and hopelessness for many women seeking to escape. Today, I would like to extend my support and thanks to all those volunteers who do such a marvellous job. Applause. We are all too well aware that many women's groups experience difficulties. Women's Aid, in particular, has expressed its concern that there is no consistency of approach and therefore no security on offer to allow it to plan for the future and to improve the quality of services and expand their range. Those matters have exercised the Executive's mind and I hope that today's announcement will both produce acceptable arrangements to improve the current position and provide tangible and necessary support to develop the work outlined by the Scottish Partnership on Domestic Abuse. On 27 September, I attended the most recent meeting of the Scottish Partnership on Domestic Abuse, at which the main topic of discussion was its draft work plan, which had been widely circulated for consultation. The final version was submitted to Scottish Executive ministers on 14 October. I am pleased to announce that the Scottish Executive has approved the work plan and has invited the partnership to proceed with the many tasks that the plan contains. I take this opportunity to pay tribute to the partnership, chaired by Anne Smith QC, for the work that it has done so far. I was able to see at first hand the committed and professional way in which those involved go about their business, and I have full confidence that the next important phase of their work will be delivered with the same commitment and professionalism. During the debate on 2 September, Maureen Macmillan highlighted the plight of women in rural areas. It is clear that women in outlying islands and other remote areas face the greatest difficulty in gaining access to the services that are vital to their needs. We know that there are gaps in provision and that there are inconsistencies in the way in which such services operate. That is precisely why the work of the partnership is so important. With regard to service provision, the bases of statutory services are generally found at a range of locations throughout rural areas. Nevertheless, the very size of such areas means that many communities will be distant from outlying services, which makes access to emergency services extremely difficult for women who experience abuse. Community issues such as lack of privacy and lack of confidentiality bring other problems. I am very concerned that in some of the remote and rural communities, there is often an acceptance and tolerance of domestic abuse, which frequently results in the isolation and marginalisation of those who attempt to address the problem. I am pleased that the partnership will specifically address the wide range of issues that affect women in rural as well as urban areas. I want to refer to the issue of prevention and education. Recent research carried out by the Zero Tolerance Trust suggests that one in two young men and one in three young women believe that it is acceptable to hit a woman or to force her to have sex in certain circumstances. Such ideas and beliefs, which underpin and legitimise violence against women and children, including domestic abuse, must be effectively challenged if we are to achieve a society in which relationships are based on equality and mutual respect, and a culture in which abuse is not tolerated. The long-term aim of public education and preventive work must be to eradicate domestic abuse from Scottish society. That aim will not be achieved overnight, but the Scottish Executive must and will pursue it. To support that important work, I am pleased to announce details of a funding package that the Scottish Executive believes will begin to improve local circumstances, particularly when service levels are not adequately meeting the needs of victims. Women taking the crucial—often brave— step of getting out of their ordeal must not be denied the comfort of the proper range of professional support services. Women need to have full confidence in those to whom they turn for help. If we fail them then, their hopelessness returns, often with even more dramatic effect, for it becomes far more difficult to attempt to escape for a second or third time. That plays into the hands of perpetrators, who can continue their serial abuse, safe in the knowledge that the system has failed the victims and their children. We must never forget that the victim never deserves what has happened to them and that it is never their fault. No one deserves to be abused and there is no excuse for domestic abuse. I know that there are pockets of excellent service provision. The local authorities that have made it a priority should be commended, but the position in Scotland is far too patchy, inconsistent, unco-ordinated and lacking in focus—we know that from the work of the partnership. We also know that there are particular problems in rural areas, with ethnic groups and with those who are disabled, and, of course, that the impact on children is traumatic, distressing and often long- lasting. The funding package that I announce today aims to improve local circumstances significantly. First, we are setting up a domestic abuse service development fund, which will operate from April 2000. Additional resources of £3 million—new money—will be pumped into the fund over the next two years. Local authorities will be invited to apply for grants that will be directly linked to the work of the Scottish Partnership on Domestic Abuse. To access the fund, local authorities will be required to submit detailed proposals on how the funding will be used to improve service provision. Local authorities will be required to set out their plans to develop or improve multi-agency arrangements. In particular, we will want to know how they will interface with local voluntary agencies that are involved with women and children who experience domestic abuse. Importantly, applications will be partnership applications—local authorities will not submit applications in isolation and without the necessary consultation. They will be required to demonstrate their commitment to tackling domestic abuse, by match-funding the grants that they seek. Over the next two years, there will be £6 million to begin properly to address the dreadful plight of those in our communities who are suffering, often in isolation and silence. That is not all that I can present to the Parliament. I can announce new arrangements with Scottish Homes that will complement the measures flowing from the development fund. Those arrangements have a direct impact on women's refuges and move-on housing. In Scotland there is a shortage of places in refuges to which women who are suffering from domestic abuse and their children can go for security, help and assistance. In the early 1990s, the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities estimated that there was a need for one refuge space for every 7,500 people. That indicates a need for more than 650 places in Scotland, whereas only approximately 360 refuge places are now available—that falls some way short. A survey of service provision to women experiencing domestic violence carried out in 1997 identified the limited availability of refuge spaces as one of the key constraints facing Women's Aid groups, so that emergency accommodation was not always available near to where the women seeking help lived. There is also a recognised need for more accommodation that allows women in refuges to move on to a house of their own and to start to rebuild their lives. I am determined that we should make progress in that area, and I have asked Scottish Homes to allocate up to £2 million of its development programme over the next two years to fund capital projects to create additional refuge places—150 to 200 new bed spaces. That is a substantial increase in the investment made by Scottish Homes, reflecting the priority that we believe should be attached to meeting the need. Creating more refuge spaces and move-on accommodation is not just a question of bricks and mortar; I will be looking to local authorities in particular to provide help with funding the support staff who will be required. I expect Scottish Homes and local authorities not just to work closely together but to work with other interested parties such as Women's Aid groups and housing associations to develop projects that address priority needs. The increased funding from Scottish Homes, combined with some of the extra resources available from the development fund, should help to ensure that we make real progress towards addressing the shortage of accommodation in some areas for women and children escaping from domestic abuse. The package that I am announcing means that £8 million will be available over two years to improve local arrangements for assisting women and children who are victims of domestic abuse. What we have today is a good starting point on which we can build for the future. The Scottish Parliament must play a significant role in ensuring the best possible service for women and children experiencing domestic abuse. We will do that in partnership with local government, Scottish Homes and the voluntary sector. I am confident that it will be an effective and strong partnership to deliver our commitment. Today the Parliament sends out a strong message, from the Executive, from the members of Parliament and from the people assembled in the gallery, that we will not tolerate domestic abuse in the Scotland of tomorrow. I move,That the Parliament supports the final Workplan prepared by the Scottish Partnership on Domestic Abuse and welcomes the establishment by the Scottish Executive of a Domestic Abuse Service Development Fund to improve local arrangements for assisting women and children who are victims of domestic abuse.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am delighted to move the motion on behalf of the Scottish Executive. I am especially pleased that once again the Parliament has an opportunity to debate a topic that is rightfully one of the top priorities of the Executive.

Many members will recall the members' business debate secured by Maureen Macmillan on 2 September—indeed, such was the interest and commitment that a motion was passed to extend the debate for a further half hour.

What struck me then—and I think that those who attended the debate will agree—was the enormous amount of cross-party support in our Parliament for the important work being developed by the partnership to improve the range and standards of provision in Scotland for women and children experiencing domestic abuse.

In that same spirit of consensus, the Executive will accept the Opposition's amendment. The amendment outlines the exact work programme of the Scottish Partnership on Domestic Abuse, and we have no difficulty in supporting its sentiments. However, I want to make a plea that, when we talk about these issues, we move on from campaigning rhetoric to discuss the reality of the strategic action that the Parliament and the Executive are beholden to take. That aside, I am pleased to accept the amendment.

All of us continue to be shocked at the extent of domestic abuse and at the real and disturbing effect that such violence has on children who are caught up in it. However, domestic abuse is not peculiar to Scotland, nor is it a modern-day phenomenon. Sadly, the problem has been rooted in society for centuries and has an international dimension. We have an opportunity—indeed, a responsibility—to create a climate in Scotland that will not tolerate violence, particularly domestic violence.

Many years before coming into Parliament, I

worked in a voluntary capacity for women's groups and I was, and still am, a great supporter of organisations such as Women's Aid, Rape Crisis and the Zero Tolerance Trust. The services provided by some of those organisations are often an oasis in a desert of despair and hopelessness for many women seeking to escape. Today, I would like to extend my support and thanks to all those volunteers who do such a marvellous job. [Applause.]

We are all too well aware that many women's groups experience difficulties. Women's Aid, in particular, has expressed its concern that there is no consistency of approach and therefore no security on offer to allow it to plan for the future and to improve the quality of services and expand their range. Those matters have exercised the Executive's mind and I hope that today's announcement will both produce acceptable arrangements to improve the current position and provide tangible and necessary support to develop the work outlined by the Scottish Partnership on Domestic Abuse.

On 27 September, I attended the most recent meeting of the Scottish Partnership on Domestic Abuse, at which the main topic of discussion was its draft work plan, which had been widely circulated for consultation. The final version was submitted to Scottish Executive ministers on 14 October. I am pleased to announce that the Scottish Executive has approved the work plan and has invited the partnership to proceed with the many tasks that the plan contains.

I take this opportunity to pay tribute to the partnership, chaired by Anne Smith QC, for the work that it has done so far. I was able to see at first hand the committed and professional way in which those involved go about their business, and I have full confidence that the next important phase of their work will be delivered with the same commitment and professionalism.

During the debate on 2 September, Maureen Macmillan highlighted the plight of women in rural areas. It is clear that women in outlying islands and other remote areas face the greatest difficulty in gaining access to the services that are vital to their needs.

We know that there are gaps in provision and that there are inconsistencies in the way in which such services operate. That is precisely why the work of the partnership is so important. With regard to service provision, the bases of statutory services are generally found at a range of locations throughout rural areas. Nevertheless, the very size of such areas means that many communities will be distant from outlying services, which makes access to emergency services extremely difficult for women who experience abuse.

Community issues such as lack of privacy and lack of confidentiality bring other problems. I am very concerned that in some of the remote and rural communities, there is often an acceptance and tolerance of domestic abuse, which frequently results in the isolation and marginalisation of those who attempt to address the problem. I am pleased that the partnership will specifically address the wide range of issues that affect women in rural as well as urban areas.

I want to refer to the issue of prevention and education. Recent research carried out by the Zero Tolerance Trust suggests that one in two young men and one in three young women believe that it is acceptable to hit a woman or to force her to have sex in certain circumstances.

Such ideas and beliefs, which underpin and legitimise violence against women and children, including domestic abuse, must be effectively challenged if we are to achieve a society in which relationships are based on equality and mutual respect, and a culture in which abuse is not tolerated. The long-term aim of public education and preventive work must be to eradicate domestic abuse from Scottish society. That aim will not be achieved overnight, but the Scottish Executive must and will pursue it.

To support that important work, I am pleased to announce details of a funding package that the Scottish Executive believes will begin to improve local circumstances, particularly when service levels are not adequately meeting the needs of victims. Women taking the crucial—often brave— step of getting out of their ordeal must not be denied the comfort of the proper range of professional support services.

Women need to have full confidence in those to whom they turn for help. If we fail them then, their hopelessness returns, often with even more dramatic effect, for it becomes far more difficult to attempt to escape for a second or third time. That plays into the hands of perpetrators, who can continue their serial abuse, safe in the knowledge that the system has failed the victims and their children.

We must never forget that the victim never deserves what has happened to them and that it is never their fault. No one deserves to be abused and there is no excuse for domestic abuse.

I know that there are pockets of excellent service provision. The local authorities that have made it a priority should be commended, but the position in Scotland is far too patchy, inconsistent, unco-ordinated and lacking in focus—we know that from the work of the partnership. We also know that there are particular problems in rural areas, with ethnic groups and with those who are disabled, and, of course, that the impact on

children is traumatic, distressing and often long- lasting.

The funding package that I announce today aims to improve local circumstances significantly. First, we are setting up a domestic abuse service development fund, which will operate from April 2000. Additional resources of £3 million—new money—will be pumped into the fund over the next two years. Local authorities will be invited to apply for grants that will be directly linked to the work of the Scottish Partnership on Domestic Abuse.

To access the fund, local authorities will be required to submit detailed proposals on how the funding will be used to improve service provision. Local authorities will be required to set out their plans to develop or improve multi-agency arrangements. In particular, we will want to know how they will interface with local voluntary agencies that are involved with women and children who experience domestic abuse. Importantly, applications will be partnership applications—local authorities will not submit applications in isolation and without the necessary consultation. They will be required to demonstrate their commitment to tackling domestic abuse, by match-funding the grants that they seek. Over the next two years, there will be £6 million to begin properly to address the dreadful plight of those in our communities who are suffering, often in isolation and silence.

That is not all that I can present to the Parliament. I can announce new arrangements with Scottish Homes that will complement the measures flowing from the development fund. Those arrangements have a direct impact on women's refuges and move-on housing.

In Scotland there is a shortage of places in refuges to which women who are suffering from domestic abuse and their children can go for security, help and assistance. In the early 1990s, the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities estimated that there was a need for one refuge space for every 7,500 people. That indicates a need for more than 650 places in Scotland, whereas only approximately 360 refuge places are now available—that falls some way short.

A survey of service provision to women experiencing domestic violence carried out in 1997 identified the limited availability of refuge spaces as one of the key constraints facing Women's Aid groups, so that emergency accommodation was not always available near to where the women seeking help lived. There is also a recognised need for more accommodation that allows women in refuges to move on to a house of their own and to start to rebuild their lives.

I am determined that we should make progress in that area, and I have asked Scottish Homes to allocate up to £2 million of its development programme over the next two years to fund capital projects to create additional refuge places—150 to 200 new bed spaces. That is a substantial increase in the investment made by Scottish Homes, reflecting the priority that we believe should be attached to meeting the need.

Creating more refuge spaces and move-on accommodation is not just a question of bricks and mortar; I will be looking to local authorities in particular to provide help with funding the support staff who will be required. I expect Scottish Homes and local authorities not just to work closely together but to work with other interested parties such as Women's Aid groups and housing associations to develop projects that address priority needs.

The increased funding from Scottish Homes, combined with some of the extra resources available from the development fund, should help to ensure that we make real progress towards addressing the shortage of accommodation in some areas for women and children escaping from domestic abuse.

The package that I am announcing means that £8 million will be available over two years to improve local arrangements for assisting women and children who are victims of domestic abuse. What we have today is a good starting point on which we can build for the future. The Scottish Parliament must play a significant role in ensuring the best possible service for women and children experiencing domestic abuse. We will do that in partnership with local government, Scottish Homes and the voluntary sector. I am confident that it will be an effective and strong partnership to deliver our commitment.

Today the Parliament sends out a strong message, from the Executive, from the members of Parliament and from the people assembled in the gallery, that we will not tolerate domestic abuse in the Scotland of tomorrow.

I move,

That the Parliament supports the final Workplan prepared by the Scottish Partnership on Domestic Abuse and welcomes the establishment by the Scottish Executive of a Domestic Abuse Service Development Fund to improve local arrangements for assisting women and children who are victims of domestic abuse.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:26:39.873439+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2133E222P520C709901", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Domestic Violence", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26948, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 62.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 62.0, "ID": 26948, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Matheson, Michael", "ID": 2133, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Matheson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Matheson (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 83.0, "ContributionID": 709901, "EditedText": "I welcome the minister's announcement today and recognise her commitment to dealing with domestic violence. I am conscious that I am the first male speaker in this debate. It is important that males speak out about the problems of domestic violence. I am sure that there will be others. Several members have touched on the unacceptable level of domestic violence. We must examine how domestic violence shatters the stability of a family, placing not only the woman who has been subjected to violence at considerable risk, but the children and young people in that household. The fact that there is no such thing as a typically abused woman has been well documented. Equally, there is no such thing as a typically abused child or young person. Last year alone, 8,500 children and young people sought help from Women's Aid projects—often with their mother or carer—but less than half were provided with the refuge and shelter they required. That highlights the desperate shortage of provision for young people and children and, alongside the estimated 100,000 children who live with the experience of domestic violence in Scotland, the desperate need for additional resources to meet their needs. We should also consider the fact that around 60 per cent of children in a household where there is domestic violence are abused by the person who abuses their mother or carer. The impact of domestic violence on children and young people can not be understated. Domestic abuse, along with other forms of abuse, is one of the most common reasons for young people becoming homeless. Young men aged 16 plus are particularly vulnerable, as Nora Radcliffe pointed out when she referred to the inability of Women's Aid projects to provide them with the accommodation they require. I hope that, in her summing up, the minister will address directly what can be done to ensure that there is provision. Proper co-ordination between agencies is also important. A child or young person who has to take refuge with their mother or carer often has to go to a shelter and, at the same time, leave their school, leaving behind their friends. That not only disrupts the child's or young person's education, but can result in their leaving behind the friends that they need most during such a traumatic time in their lives. I recognise that many statutory and non-statutory agencies work together where they can, but it is important that they work together in an appropriate manner. I ask the minister to address what guidance will be issued to statutory agencies to ensure that they work in proper partnership with Women's Aid refuge organisations. The role of Women's Aid organisations is frequently undermined by the continual constraints under which they work, often as a result of standstill budgets year upon year, so I welcome the additional funding to address that issue. However, just as our education departments require the right funding to provide children with the right education, Women's Aid projects require the right funding to provide children with the protection they need when in difficulty. It is also important that services are provided equally across the country. That is why it is important that we have co-ordination on a national level, to ensure that children, no matter where they stay, will be provided with a reasonable service in their time of need.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the minister's announcement today and recognise her commitment to dealing with domestic violence.

I am conscious that I am the first male speaker in this debate. It is important that males speak out about the problems of domestic violence. I am sure that there will be others.

Several members have touched on the unacceptable level of domestic violence. We must examine how domestic violence shatters the stability of a family, placing not only the woman who has been subjected to violence at considerable risk, but the children and young people in that household.

The fact that there is no such thing as a typically abused woman has been well documented. Equally, there is no such thing as a typically abused child or young person. Last year alone, 8,500 children and young people sought help from Women's Aid projects—often with their mother or carer—but less than half were provided with the refuge and shelter they required. That highlights the desperate shortage of provision for young people and children and, alongside the estimated 100,000 children who live with the experience of domestic violence in Scotland, the desperate need for additional resources to meet their needs. We should also consider the fact that around 60 per cent of children in a household where there is domestic violence are abused by the person who abuses their mother or carer.

The impact of domestic violence on children and young people can not be understated. Domestic abuse, along with other forms of abuse, is one of the most common reasons for young people becoming homeless. Young men aged 16 plus are particularly vulnerable, as Nora Radcliffe pointed out when she referred to the inability of Women's Aid projects to provide them with the accommodation they require. I hope that, in her summing up, the minister will address directly what can be done to ensure that there is provision.

Proper co-ordination between agencies is also important. A child or young person who has to take refuge with their mother or carer often has to go to a shelter and, at the same time, leave their school, leaving behind their friends. That not only disrupts the child's or young person's education, but can result in their leaving behind the friends that they need most during such a traumatic time in their lives.

I recognise that many statutory and non-statutory agencies work together where they can, but it is important that they work together in an appropriate manner. I ask the minister to address what guidance will be issued to statutory agencies to ensure that they work in proper partnership with Women's Aid refuge organisations.

The role of Women's Aid organisations is frequently undermined by the continual constraints under which they work, often as a result of standstill budgets year upon year, so I welcome the additional funding to address that issue. However, just as our education departments require the right funding to provide children with the right education, Women's Aid projects require the right funding to provide children with the protection they need when in difficulty.

It is also important that services are provided equally across the country. That is why it is important that we have co-ordination on a national level, to ensure that children, no matter where they stay, will be provided with a reasonable service in their time of need.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:55.929179+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709866", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Time for Reflection", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26946, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26946, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 4.0, "ContributionID": 709866, "EditedText": "Our first item of business is time for reflection. I remind members that, from this week, this will usually be the first item of business every week. It will last for a maximum of four minutes, and will be recorded in the Official Report. Those present in the chamber are asked to refrain from opening and closing the doors during this time and to remain silent. I ask members and those seated in the galleries to respect the time for reflection. Our time for reflection leader today is the Reverend Dr Graham Blount, the Scottish Churches parliamentary officer.", "EditedTextHTML": "Our first item of business is time for reflection. I remind members that, from this week, this will usually be the first item of business every week. It will last for a maximum of four minutes, and will be recorded in the Official Report. Those present in the chamber are asked to refrain from opening and closing the doors during this time and to remain silent. I ask members and those seated in the galleries to respect the time for reflection.

Our time for reflection leader today is the Reverend Dr Graham Blount, the Scottish Churches parliamentary officer.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C709869", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Meningococcal C Immunisation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26947, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26947, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 12.0, "ContributionID": 709869, "EditedText": "I am grateful to have the opportunity to inform Parliament of the arrangements in Scotland for the introduction of a new vaccine to protect our children against meningitis C. The new vaccine programme is good news for parents and children across Scotland and is a huge step towards conquering one strain of a potentially life-threatening infection. Meningitis, one form of meningococcal infection, is an inflammation of the lining of the brain and spinal cord. It can be caused by a number of different types of viruses and bacteria. Meningococcal infection can cause long-term damage and can be fatal. The new vaccine will protect against meningococcal group C bacteria, which account for about half of all cases of this infection in Scotland. A particularly frightening aspect of meningococcal infection is the speed with which it can take hold of a young life. Without early detection and swift treatment, the consequences can be fatal or permanently harmful. It is an infection that many parents live in fear of and, sadly, whose consequences some have experienced. Last year in Scotland, around 160 people developed meningitis and blood poisoning because of meningococcal group C bacteria. Tragically, 10 of them died. Others were left with long-term health problems such as brain damage, deafness and amputations. It is of added poignancy that the infection affects mainly very young children and young adults: young lives are blighted; potential is lost; and families are stricken with grief. That is all caused by this disease, which attacks health with speed and stealth. Science has given us the opportunity to do something about that: to save those young lives; to realise that potential; and to spare families the agony of loss. This Executive was not prepared to ignore that opportunity. The development of this new vaccine, which is called MenC, is hugely welcome. It has become available a year earlier than anticipated because of unexpectedly swift progress in research and development. Last week, the first manufacturer received a licence from the Medicines Control Agency for the supply of the vaccine. Further licences are likely to be issued over the coming months, which will enable the progressive implementation of a major immunisation programme. Scotland—together with our partners in the rest of the United Kingdom—will become the first country in the world to introduce a routine national programme for this vaccine. As our Minister for Health and Community Care and as a mother of a young child, I am pleased to make that announcement today. However, we should make no mistake— introducing a new vaccination programme targeted at more than 1 million babies, children and teenagers presents a major logistical challenge. We are determined to meet that challenge. Earlier this summer, I set up an implementation group to advise on and plan the arrangements that should be made to ensure optimum use of the initial vaccine supplies. I am grateful to Professor Lewis Ritchie of the department of general practice at the University of Aberdeen for chairing the implementation group, which includes representatives from public health, pharmacology, information technology, the Scottish general practitioners committee of the British Medical Association and the education sector. Through their work, and with the help and support of health care professionals across Scotland, I am confident that we have put in place sound arrangements for Scotland to benefit quickly and effectively from this major advance in public health protection. In identifying the priority target groups and the progressive implementation programme that we should adopt, we have followed closely the implementation group's advice. As a result, we will see the new vaccine established as an integral and vital component of our childhood immunisation programme in the coming months. Of course, now that the vaccine is available, we want to ensure that all our young people reap the benefits of its protection. I am, therefore, pleased to confirm today that—as a result of this Executive's commitment to child health—every pre-school child and every school pupil in Scotland should be offered immunisation against meningococcal C infection in the next 14 months. That will be a huge exercise and it will also be a huge achievement. In securing that achievement, I am conscious that demands will be placed on general practitioners, community child health doctors, health visitors, school nurses, practice nurses and other national health service staff, as well as on head teachers and their staff. Every effort has been made—and will continue to be made—to support those people in that task. I am confident that they will join us in this national effort to protect our children against the threat of meningitis C. I am sure that MSPs will join me today in expressing gratitude to them at the beginning of this important national initiative. The delivery programme, which has been shaped by the work of implementation group, will start in November. It will focus initially on the most vulnerable groups. First, from 15 November it will focus on young people aged 15 to 17 and secondly, from 29 November it will focus on young babies. The first group will be targeted through a school-based programme. Babies will be reached through GPs and local health clinics. Thereafter the programme will roll out in the course of next year to include all children aged up to 14 as more supplies of the new vaccine become available. We are mounting a high-profile publicity campaign to ensure that parents are aware of the availability of the vaccine and that they receive details of the programme being put in place to immunise their children. The Health Education Board for Scotland has produced a range of materials including an information leaflet for parents, a video and posters. There will also be press advertising during November. Health professionals and schools are already being supplied with the information that they need to ensure the successful implementation of the programme. In addition, the NHS helpline will be briefed to provide any additional information parents or others may require. Through this comprehensive and co-ordinated programme, we aim to vaccinate all young people under 18 in Scotland by the end of 2000. Sufficient quantities of the vaccine have therefore been made available this autumn to ensure the offer of immunisation to all full-time first-year students in Scotland. Today, I can give an assurance that we have spared no effort in ensuring that the new vaccine will be used to maximum effect as supplies come on stream. I would, however, like to take this opportunity to ask parents to play their part as well. I will make three points in this respect, which are also explained in the HEBS leaflet and other publicity material. First, I would like to say to the mothers of pre-school children that appointments at their local GP surgeries or community health clinics will be arranged and details will be sent to them. Those mothers should wait until they receive details of that appointment and should then ensure that they take that opportunity to attend. Secondly, the parents of schoolchildren will receive a consent form from their children's schools, along with the information leaflet. My message to them is to return that consent form quickly. Thirdly, all parents should remain vigilant and look for the signs and symptoms of meningococcal infection. The MenC vaccine, significant and welcome as it is, is not a protection against all forms of meningitis. It will not give protection against meningococcal group B bacteria, which are another major cause of meningitis. The Executive's commitment to safeguard and protect the health of our children is absolute. Immunisation remains one of the most effective ways of protecting our children from serious disease. The introduction of the meningitis C vaccine is therefore a significant addition to the immunisation armoury. However, this huge new programme does not come cheap. Over the next three years, the Scottish Executive will invest £31 million in this new initiative—£14 million in the current year, together with the £17 million announced by the Minister for Finance on 6 October over the next two years. It is money well spent and we do not begrudge a penny. I have repeatedly said in this Parliament and outside that one of my priorities is to improve child health in Scotland. That means tackling both the lifestyles and life circumstances in which our children find themselves. However, meningococcal C infection can strike a child down before he or she has the chance to grow and develop, regardless of who they are or where they live. We need to give them that chance. This campaign must mark the beginning of the end for meningococcal C infection in Scotland and the opening of a new chapter in our national child immunisation programme. I am pleased to be able to make this statement today and I look forward to taking forward this important new development, which will benefit young people and families throughout Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful to have the opportunity to inform Parliament of the arrangements in Scotland for the introduction of a new vaccine to protect our children against meningitis C. The new vaccine programme is good news for parents and children across Scotland and is a huge step towards conquering one strain of a potentially life-threatening infection.

Meningitis, one form of meningococcal infection, is an inflammation of the lining of the brain and spinal cord. It can be caused by a number of different types of viruses and bacteria. Meningococcal infection can cause long-term damage and can be fatal. The new vaccine will protect against meningococcal group C bacteria, which account for about half of all cases of this infection in Scotland.

A particularly frightening aspect of meningococcal infection is the speed with which it can take hold of a young life. Without early detection and swift treatment, the consequences can be fatal or permanently harmful. It is an infection that many parents live in fear of and, sadly, whose consequences some have experienced. Last year in Scotland, around 160 people developed meningitis and blood poisoning because of meningococcal group C bacteria. Tragically, 10 of them died. Others were left with long-term health problems such as brain damage, deafness and amputations.

It is of added poignancy that the infection affects mainly very young children and young adults: young lives are blighted; potential is lost; and families are stricken with grief. That is all caused by this disease, which attacks health with speed and stealth. Science has given us the opportunity to do something about that: to save those young lives; to realise that potential; and to spare families the agony of loss. This Executive was not prepared to ignore that opportunity.

The development of this new vaccine, which is called MenC, is hugely welcome. It has become available a year earlier than anticipated because of unexpectedly swift progress in research and development. Last week, the first manufacturer received a licence from the Medicines Control Agency for the supply of the vaccine. Further licences are likely to be issued over the coming months, which will enable the progressive implementation of a major immunisation programme.

Scotland—together with our partners in the rest of the United Kingdom—will become the first country in the world to introduce a routine national programme for this vaccine. As our Minister for Health and Community Care and as a mother of a young child, I am pleased to make that announcement today.

However, we should make no mistake— introducing a new vaccination programme targeted at more than 1 million babies, children and teenagers presents a major logistical challenge. We are determined to meet that challenge. Earlier this summer, I set up an implementation group to advise on and plan the arrangements that should be made to ensure optimum use of the initial vaccine supplies.

I am grateful to Professor Lewis Ritchie of the department of general practice at the University of Aberdeen for chairing the implementation group, which includes representatives from public health, pharmacology, information technology, the Scottish general practitioners committee of the British Medical Association and the education sector. Through their work, and with the help and support of health care professionals across Scotland, I am confident that we have put in place sound arrangements for Scotland to benefit quickly and effectively from this major advance in public health protection.

In identifying the priority target groups and the progressive implementation programme that we should adopt, we have followed closely the implementation group's advice. As a result, we will see the new vaccine established as an integral and vital component of our childhood immunisation programme in the coming months.

Of course, now that the vaccine is available, we want to ensure that all our young people reap the benefits of its protection. I am, therefore, pleased to confirm today that—as a result of this Executive's commitment to child health—every pre-school child and every school pupil in Scotland should be offered immunisation against meningococcal C infection in the next 14 months.

That will be a huge exercise and it will also be a huge achievement. In securing that achievement, I am conscious that demands will be placed on general practitioners, community child health doctors, health visitors, school nurses, practice nurses and other national health service staff, as

well as on head teachers and their staff. Every effort has been made—and will continue to be made—to support those people in that task. I am confident that they will join us in this national effort to protect our children against the threat of meningitis C. I am sure that MSPs will join me today in expressing gratitude to them at the beginning of this important national initiative.

The delivery programme, which has been shaped by the work of implementation group, will start in November. It will focus initially on the most vulnerable groups. First, from 15 November it will focus on young people aged 15 to 17 and secondly, from 29 November it will focus on young babies.

The first group will be targeted through a school-based programme. Babies will be reached through GPs and local health clinics. Thereafter the programme will roll out in the course of next year to include all children aged up to 14 as more supplies of the new vaccine become available.

We are mounting a high-profile publicity campaign to ensure that parents are aware of the availability of the vaccine and that they receive details of the programme being put in place to immunise their children. The Health Education Board for Scotland has produced a range of materials including an information leaflet for parents, a video and posters. There will also be press advertising during November.

Health professionals and schools are already being supplied with the information that they need to ensure the successful implementation of the programme. In addition, the NHS helpline will be briefed to provide any additional information parents or others may require.

Through this comprehensive and co-ordinated programme, we aim to vaccinate all young people under 18 in Scotland by the end of 2000. Sufficient quantities of the vaccine have therefore been made available this autumn to ensure the offer of immunisation to all full-time first-year students in Scotland.

Today, I can give an assurance that we have spared no effort in ensuring that the new vaccine will be used to maximum effect as supplies come on stream. I would, however, like to take this opportunity to ask parents to play their part as well. I will make three points in this respect, which are also explained in the HEBS leaflet and other publicity material.

First, I would like to say to the mothers of pre-school children that appointments at their local GP surgeries or community health clinics will be arranged and details will be sent to them. Those mothers should wait until they receive details of that appointment and should then ensure that they take that opportunity to attend.

Secondly, the parents of schoolchildren will receive a consent form from their children's schools, along with the information leaflet. My message to them is to return that consent form quickly.

Thirdly, all parents should remain vigilant and look for the signs and symptoms of meningococcal infection. The MenC vaccine, significant and welcome as it is, is not a protection against all forms of meningitis. It will not give protection against meningococcal group B bacteria, which are another major cause of meningitis.

The Executive's commitment to safeguard and protect the health of our children is absolute. Immunisation remains one of the most effective ways of protecting our children from serious disease. The introduction of the meningitis C vaccine is therefore a significant addition to the immunisation armoury. However, this huge new programme does not come cheap. Over the next three years, the Scottish Executive will invest £31 million in this new initiative—£14 million in the current year, together with the £17 million announced by the Minister for Finance on 6 October over the next two years. It is money well spent and we do not begrudge a penny.

I have repeatedly said in this Parliament and outside that one of my priorities is to improve child health in Scotland. That means tackling both the lifestyles and life circumstances in which our children find themselves. However, meningococcal C infection can strike a child down before he or she has the chance to grow and develop, regardless of who they are or where they live. We need to give them that chance.

This campaign must mark the beginning of the end for meningococcal C infection in Scotland and the opening of a new chapter in our national child immunisation programme. I am pleased to be able to make this statement today and I look forward to taking forward this important new development, which will benefit young people and families throughout Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1811E172P455C709870", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Meningococcal C Immunisation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26947, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26947, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ullrich, Kay", "ID": 1811, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kay Ullrich", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Kay Ullrich (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 14.0, "ContributionID": 709870, "EditedText": "I welcome the minister's statement and the fact that it involves a timetable. I acknowledge that ensuring that everyone who is at risk receives the new vaccine will be a huge task. What steps have been put in place to ensure an adequate and uninterrupted supply of the new vaccine? That question is particularly important in light of the problems experienced this year by students who had been promised immunisation before the start of the new term, only to find that no vaccine was available.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the minister's statement and the fact that it involves a timetable. I acknowledge that ensuring that everyone who is at risk receives the new vaccine will be a huge task.

What steps have been put in place to ensure an adequate and uninterrupted supply of the new vaccine? That question is particularly important in light of the problems experienced this year by students who had been promised immunisation before the start of the new term, only to find that no vaccine was available.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C709874", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Meningococcal C Immunisation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26947, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26947, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 22.0, "ContributionID": 709874, "EditedText": "Conservative members welcome it very much; there should be no doubt about that. I ask respectfully whether the minister will answer the three questions that I raised. Those concerns are not mine alone; I have consulted widely, and the concerns have been expressed to me by general practitioners.", "EditedTextHTML": "Conservative members welcome it very much; there should be no doubt about that. I ask respectfully whether the minister will answer the three questions that I raised. Those concerns are not mine alone; I have consulted widely, and the concerns have been expressed to me by general practitioners.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C709879", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Meningococcal C Immunisation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26947, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26947, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 32.0, "ContributionID": 709879, "EditedText": "The MenC vaccine will not tackle every cause of meningitis, which is precisely why I said in my statement that we must remain cautious. We hope to use the implementation of the vaccination programme to continue to get that message across, as well as the good news about the vaccine and its impact. I continue to support measures to raise awareness of the signs of meningitis, which—as too many people know all too well, and as I mentioned in my statement—is an infection that can develop rapidly. I stress that the Scottish Executive works with and, in some cases, funds organisations that are involved in raising awareness of the issues.", "EditedTextHTML": "The MenC vaccine will not tackle every cause of meningitis, which is precisely why I said in my statement that we must remain cautious. We hope to use the implementation of the vaccination programme to continue to get that message across, as well as the good news about the vaccine and its impact. I continue to support measures to raise awareness of the signs of meningitis, which—as too many people know all too well, and as I mentioned in my statement—is an infection that can develop rapidly. I stress that the Scottish Executive works with and, in some cases, funds organisations that are involved in raising awareness of the issues.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1985E207P501C709880", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Meningococcal C Immunisation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26947, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26947, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hamilton, Mr Duncan", "ID": 1985, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Duncan Hamilton (Highlands and Islands) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 34.0, "ContributionID": 709880, "EditedText": "I add my voice to the universally warm reception that the announcement has received. I would like the minister to clarify two points. First, I understand that the new vaccine may prevent people from becoming carriers of group C bacteria, although research into that is on-going. Will the minister elaborate on current thinking on that research, tell us what funding has been put behind it and when we can expect to hear the results? Secondly, will she confirm that this announcement deals exclusively with vaccination? Does she have any proposals for the rehabilitation of those suffering from the effects of meningitis or related illnesses?", "EditedTextHTML": "I add my voice to the universally warm reception that the announcement has received. I would like the minister to clarify two points. First, I understand that the new vaccine may prevent people from becoming carriers of group C bacteria, although research into that is on-going. Will the minister elaborate on current thinking on that research, tell us what funding has been put behind it and when we can expect to hear the results? Secondly, will she confirm that this announcement deals exclusively with vaccination? Does she have any proposals for the rehabilitation of those suffering from the effects of meningitis or related illnesses?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1926E190P479C709891", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Meningococcal C Immunisation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26947, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26947, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Adam, Brian", "ID": 1926, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Adam", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Brian Adam (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 56.0, "ContributionID": 709891, "EditedText": "Inthat case, I will skip my welcome.Is the usual incentive arrangement for payment to GPs in place to increase the uptake of this extremely welcome new vaccine? I am aware of such arrangements for the measles, mumps and rubella vaccine, for example.", "EditedTextHTML": "In

that case, I will skip my welcome.

Is the usual incentive arrangement for payment to GPs in place to increase the uptake of this extremely welcome new vaccine? I am aware of such arrangements for the measles, mumps and rubella vaccine, for example.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709893", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Meningococcal C Immunisation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26947, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26947, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 60.0, "ContributionID": 709893, "EditedText": "That concludes the time allotted for the statement.", "EditedTextHTML": "That concludes the time allotted for the statement.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709894", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Domestic Violence", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26948, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 62.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 62.0, "ID": 26948, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 63.0, "ContributionID": 709894, "EditedText": "The main debate this afternoon is on the motion on domestic violence and the amendment. Members wishing to speak should press their buttons now. The opening speakers know the times that have been agreed for their speeches, and the clocks will be operating. In view of the number of members who wish to speak in the debate, there will be a time limit of four minutes for back-bench speeches. The clocks at the sides of the chamber and behind me will register the actual time used by the speaker.", "EditedTextHTML": "The main debate this afternoon is on the motion on domestic violence and the amendment. Members wishing to speak should press their buttons now. The opening speakers know the times that have been agreed for their speeches, and the clocks will be operating. In view of the number of members who wish to speak in the debate, there will be a time limit of four minutes for back-bench speeches. The clocks at the sides of the chamber and behind me will register the actual time used by the speaker.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709930", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26949, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 143.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 143.0, "ID": 26949, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 151.0, "ContributionID": 709930, "EditedText": "That concludes decision time.", "EditedTextHTML": "That concludes decision time.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2140E187P335C709906", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Domestic Violence", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26948, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 62.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 62.0, "ID": 26948, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Rumbles, Mike", "ID": 2140, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Rumbles", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Mike Rumbles (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 98.0, "ContributionID": 709906, "EditedText": "I welcome this important debate on domestic violence. It is right that the Executive recognises the problem. It is also right that the Executive is taking action, through funding, to combat domestic violence throughout society. I would like to add a different perspective to the debate. I want to focus on an area of domestic violence that is far too often neglected. I want to highlight one group of victims of domestic abuse to which little attention is given. George Reid talked about the last taboo. I am afraid that that is not the last taboo. I want to address the issue of male victims of domestic violence. I shall not talk about the debate in The Herald, or the statistics that were produced there. People can read that debate for themselves. Let us be honest: no one has referred to the dozens of international and domestic studies that have been conducted into the issue of domestic violence against men. I shall quote three of them. We talked about Commonwealth surveys. A survey of 1,037 young adults who were born between 1972 and 1973 in Dunedin, New Zealand, found that 18 per cent of young women said that they had perpetrated severe physical violence against their partners, while only 5 per cent of young men said that. The number of women who said that they had kicked or bitten their partners, hit them with their fists or with an object, was more than three times that of men. The 1996 British crime survey reported that nearly one third of the victims of domestic violence were men. In January 1999, the UK Home Office produced its own evidence to suggest that domestic violence is not a male disease. It reported that 4.2 per cent of women and 4.2 per cent of men, aged between 16 and 59, said that they had been physically assaulted by a current partner during the past year. Most members have, quite rightly, referred to the appalling problems of domestic abuse that affect women and children. I had to think about whether I should even speak in this debate, as I did not want to remove the focus from the domestic violence that is inflicted on women and children. However, I think that this issue must be addressed. We talk about social inclusion. I make a plea for social inclusion—for equality of treatment and recognition, which is the most important thing, of the problems of all victims of domestic violence, be they men, women or children. If I have any criticism of the motion, it is that it does not go far enough.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome this important debate on domestic violence. It is right that the Executive recognises the problem. It is also right that the Executive is taking action, through funding, to combat domestic violence throughout society.

I would like to add a different perspective to the debate. I want to focus on an area of domestic violence that is far too often neglected. I want to highlight one group of victims of domestic abuse to which little attention is given. George Reid talked about the last taboo. I am afraid that that is not the last taboo. I want to address the issue of male victims of domestic violence. I shall not talk about the debate in The Herald, or the statistics that were produced there. People can read that debate for themselves. Let us be honest: no one has referred to the dozens of international and domestic studies that have been conducted into the issue of domestic violence against men. I shall quote three of them.

We talked about Commonwealth surveys. A survey of 1,037 young adults who were born between 1972 and 1973 in Dunedin, New Zealand, found that 18 per cent of young women said that they had perpetrated severe physical violence against their partners, while only 5 per cent of young men said that. The number of women who said that they had kicked or bitten their partners, hit them with their fists or with an object, was more than three times that of men. The 1996 British crime survey reported that nearly one third of the victims of domestic violence were men. In January 1999, the UK Home Office produced its own evidence to suggest that domestic violence is not a male disease. It reported that 4.2 per cent of women and 4.2 per cent of men, aged between 16 and 59, said that they had been physically assaulted by a current partner during the past year.

Most members have, quite rightly, referred to the appalling problems of domestic abuse that affect women and children. I had to think about whether I should even speak in this debate, as I did not want to remove the focus from the domestic violence that is inflicted on women and children. However, I think that this issue must be addressed. We talk about social inclusion. I make a plea for social inclusion—for equality of treatment and recognition, which is the most important thing, of the problems of all victims of domestic violence, be they men, women or children. If I have any criticism of the motion, it is that it does not go far enough.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2080E130P217C709907", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Domestic Violence", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26948, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 62.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 62.0, "ID": 26948, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lamont, Johann", "ID": 2080, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Pollok" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Johann Lamont", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Johann Lamont (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 101.0, "ContributionID": 709907, "EditedText": "I will address some of the points that Mr Rumbles made. However, I ask him respectfully to consider what all the agencies say about the nature of domestic violence, and I put a proposition to him. If there were significant evidence of women's violence against men, the first place it would be seen is in the development of self-help organisations. That is what the Women's Aid organisations tell us about the experience of women. When women got themselves together and raised the issue on the political agenda, it was directly as a result of their experiences. I welcome this debate and the announcements that have been made today. I have time to address only a limited number of the issues that are involved. I am conscious of the work of women's organisations in developing policy, raising awareness and supporting women who experience domestic violence. It is testimony to those organisations—over many, sometimes hostile, years—that we are now at this stage. It is important that those organisations maintain a central role in the work at the next stage. We all know the significance of the debate that we are having. It is important to view domestic violence in the broader context of male violence against women, and to respect those women who are survivors of domestic abuse. They are not a peep show. We should look beyond the bruises to, very often, courageous women who, while carrying those bruises, are the first to be concerned about the safety of their children. Sometimes, in discussion of this issue, there develops a sad bemusement towards the women as if, as victims of crime, they are uniquely illogical. Why do they not leave? The reality is that women are often responding to their circumstances in the most logical way. Think of the strong messages that say that lone parents can damage the prospects of children. Remember the condemnation that follows if a woman, even if it is to save herself, flees and leaves her children behind. Consider the evidence of our own eyes and ears when we read of men who have attacked their ex-partners and their children after they have fled—the evidence that tells us that fleeing violence does not always make a woman safe. Children, too, suffer. They may be seen as difficult or as having mental health problems because they do not attend school or because they display distrust of adults. In fact, what more logical response can a child have to their dad hitting their mum than staying home from school to protect her, or than not trusting adults when their father has made the most grotesque breach of trust by terrorising them and their family in their own home? It is crucial that schools and health services recognise the essential role that they can play, not in exacerbating children's problems, but in supporting children. We know that domestic violence knows no class or racial boundaries. It is therefore essential that there are local organisations that meet locally the needs of women in poverty who find it difficult to get out, of disabled women or of black and ethnic minority women. My final point relates directly to what Mike Rumbles said. We talk about support systems, of ways to protect women, of empowering women to take control, of getting women out to help children and of multi-agency work. All of those circle, and are designed to manage the fallout from, the central problem, which is violent men who think that they can be violent with impunity. If we are to change the situation, we need to recognise the gender-specific nature of such violence. It is essential to see the pattern. The problem is not dysfunctional families. It is not the unhappy conjunction of individual men and women who do not get on. These are not men who are some freak of nature. Male violence is too persistent and consistent for that. We know that attitudes to male violence remain a major concern and reflect what boys and girls learn about acceptable behaviour. Many men can make their partners and children refugees in their own country and yet still go to the pub and talk about football. They remain part of the normal world. They are not ostracised, which is a central problem in dealing with male violence. It is crucial that we support not only the central work of groups such as Women's Aid—women who suffer domestic violence cannot wait for the world's attitudes to change—but the work of groups such as the Zero Tolerance Trust. We must also identify what and who causes violence and how attitudes are perpetuated. If we do not acknowledge that domestic violence reflects the unequal power in our society, we will never get rid of it. We owe it to our children—boys and girls—to continue the process of changing our and their expectations of how things can and should be.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will address some of the points that Mr Rumbles made. However, I ask him respectfully to consider what all the agencies say about the nature of domestic violence, and I put a proposition to him. If there were significant evidence of women's violence against men, the first place it would be seen is in the development of self-help organisations. That is what the Women's Aid organisations tell us about the experience of women. When women got themselves together and raised the issue on the political agenda, it was directly as a result of their experiences.

I welcome this debate and the announcements that have been made today. I have time to address only a limited number of the issues that are involved. I am conscious of the work of women's organisations in developing policy, raising awareness and supporting women who experience domestic violence. It is testimony to those organisations—over many, sometimes hostile, years—that we are now at this stage. It is important that those organisations maintain a central role in the work at the next stage.

We all know the significance of the debate that we are having. It is important to view domestic violence in the broader context of male violence against women, and to respect those women who are survivors of domestic abuse. They are not a peep show. We should look beyond the bruises to, very often, courageous women who, while carrying those bruises, are the first to be concerned about the safety of their children.

Sometimes, in discussion of this issue, there develops a sad bemusement towards the women as if, as victims of crime, they are uniquely illogical. Why do they not leave? The reality is that women are often responding to their circumstances in the most logical way. Think of the strong messages that say that lone parents can damage the prospects of children. Remember the condemnation that follows if a woman, even if it is to save herself, flees and leaves her children behind. Consider the evidence of our own eyes and ears when we read of men who have attacked their ex-partners and their children after they have fled—the evidence that tells us that fleeing violence does not always make a woman safe.

Children, too, suffer. They may be seen as difficult or as having mental health problems because they do not attend school or because they display distrust of adults. In fact, what more logical response can a child have to their dad hitting their mum than staying home from school to protect her, or than not trusting adults when their father has made the most grotesque breach of trust by terrorising them and their family in their own home?

It is crucial that schools and health services recognise the essential role that they can play, not

in exacerbating children's problems, but in supporting children. We know that domestic violence knows no class or racial boundaries. It is therefore essential that there are local organisations that meet locally the needs of women in poverty who find it difficult to get out, of disabled women or of black and ethnic minority women.

My final point relates directly to what Mike Rumbles said. We talk about support systems, of ways to protect women, of empowering women to take control, of getting women out to help children and of multi-agency work. All of those circle, and are designed to manage the fallout from, the central problem, which is violent men who think that they can be violent with impunity. If we are to change the situation, we need to recognise the gender-specific nature of such violence. It is essential to see the pattern.

The problem is not dysfunctional families. It is not the unhappy conjunction of individual men and women who do not get on. These are not men who are some freak of nature. Male violence is too persistent and consistent for that. We know that attitudes to male violence remain a major concern and reflect what boys and girls learn about acceptable behaviour. Many men can make their partners and children refugees in their own country and yet still go to the pub and talk about football. They remain part of the normal world. They are not ostracised, which is a central problem in dealing with male violence.

It is crucial that we support not only the central work of groups such as Women's Aid—women who suffer domestic violence cannot wait for the world's attitudes to change—but the work of groups such as the Zero Tolerance Trust. We must also identify what and who causes violence and how attitudes are perpetuated. If we do not acknowledge that domestic violence reflects the unequal power in our society, we will never get rid of it. We owe it to our children—boys and girls—to continue the process of changing our and their expectations of how things can and should be.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1811E172P455C709908", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Domestic Violence", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26948, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 62.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 62.0, "ID": 26948, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ullrich, Kay", "ID": 1811, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kay Ullrich", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Kay Ullrich (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 104.0, "ContributionID": 709908, "EditedText": "I pay tribute to the progress that has been made during the past few years in addressing the problem of domestic violence, particularly in raising public awareness of such violence and in recognising that the safety and well-being of the victim must be paramount for all who deal with the issue. Much of the success that has been achieved has been due mainly to the willingness of the many agencies involved to develop strategy and policy within a multi-agency framework. There have, for example, been initiatives within the criminal justice system that make the protection of victims and their children a priority. It is now Strathclyde police policy, for example, to detain in custody until the next available court hearing anyone arrested for a crime involving domestic violence. When evidence is not immediately available to justify an arrest at the scene, officers are encouraged to consider detaining the alleged offender under section 14 of the Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1995, which allows time for a thorough investigation and, crucially, the opportunity for the police to obtain multi-agency assistance for the victim and any children involved. Such practices, plus the co-operation of the judiciary in imposing bail conditions, which are now notified to the victim, represent a great step forward in the recognition of the need to treat domestic violence as a serious issue. That said, there are areas of the criminal justice system that give me cause for concern. Here, I want to highlight the 18 pilot diversion from prosecution schemes that operate in Scotland. Diverting a case involving domestic violence from prosecution not only gives out entirely the wrong message to the offender and the victim, but puts perpetrators of domestic violence on a par with an elderly woman slipping a tin of salmon into her shopping bag. In effect, it allows excuses to be made for totally unacceptable behaviour. It allows the social work department to place an offender, for example, in anger management counselling, saying, \"He did it because he was angry with her.\" Even worse, an offender can be referred for alcohol counselling, which gives weight to the age- old excuse, \"It was the drink, m'lord.\" In all my years of sitting as a social worker in a sheriff court, I never failed to be amazed at the willing acceptance of drink as an excuse for an assault on a partner. The excuse is one that I find difficult to understand. After all, if drink made the offender violent, why did he wait until he got home before assaulting someone? Why did he not hit the big guy standing next to him at the bar? There are no prizes for guessing the answer to that one—the big guy would surely have hit him back. I therefore urge the Executive to remove domestic violence from the diversion from prosecution scheme. There is certainly evidence of progress in tackling domestic violence, but the situation is far from rosy because agencies such as Women's Aid and Victim Support Scotland have been particularly hard-hit by cuts in local authority funding. For example, in North Ayrshire alone last year, 43 women and 67 children had to be refused refuge accommodation due to inadequate funding. Will the minister explain how local authorities are expected, given the continuing cuts in local authority funding, to match the funding that is being given? Many priority areas must be addressed, including the development of services for children affected by domestic violence and improvement of services for victims in rural areas. Further, as George Reid said, it is recognised that disabled women, those suffering from mental health illnesses and those with drug and alcohol problems are particularly at risk. I welcome today's statement, but we all know that there is a long way to go. If we are to achieve our aims, we must implement a national strategy as a necessary part of the campaign. There can be no excuse for domestic violence, and there can be no excuse for this Parliament not paying due attention to the needs of those afflicted by domestic violence. I urge members to support the amended motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "I pay tribute to the progress that has been made during the past few years in addressing the problem of domestic violence, particularly in raising public awareness of such violence and in recognising that the safety and well-being of the victim must be paramount for all who deal with the issue. Much of the success that has been achieved has been due mainly to the willingness of the many agencies involved to develop strategy and policy within a multi-agency framework. There have, for example, been initiatives within the criminal justice system that make the protection of victims and their children a priority.

It is now Strathclyde police policy, for example, to detain in custody until the next available court hearing anyone arrested for a crime involving domestic violence. When evidence is not immediately available to justify an arrest at the scene, officers are encouraged to consider detaining the alleged offender under section 14 of the Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1995, which allows time for a thorough investigation and, crucially, the opportunity for the police to obtain multi-agency assistance for the victim and any children involved.

Such practices, plus the co-operation of the judiciary in imposing bail conditions, which are now notified to the victim, represent a great step forward in the recognition of the need to treat domestic violence as a serious issue. That said, there are areas of the criminal justice system that give me cause for concern. Here, I want to highlight the 18 pilot diversion from prosecution schemes that operate in Scotland.

Diverting a case involving domestic violence from prosecution not only gives out entirely the wrong message to the offender and the victim, but puts perpetrators of domestic violence on a par with an elderly woman slipping a tin of salmon into her shopping bag. In effect, it allows excuses to be made for totally unacceptable behaviour. It allows the social work department to place an offender, for example, in anger management counselling, saying, \"He did it because he was angry with her.\"

Even worse, an offender can be referred for alcohol counselling, which gives weight to the age- old excuse, \"It was the drink, m'lord.\" In all my years of sitting as a social worker in a sheriff court, I never failed to be amazed at the willing acceptance of drink as an excuse for an assault on a partner. The excuse is one that I find difficult to understand. After all, if drink made the offender violent, why did he wait until he got home before assaulting someone? Why did he not hit the big guy standing next to him at the bar? There are no prizes for guessing the answer to that one—the big guy would surely have hit him back. I therefore urge the Executive to remove domestic violence from the diversion from prosecution scheme.

There is certainly evidence of progress in tackling domestic violence, but the situation is far from rosy because agencies such as Women's Aid and Victim Support Scotland have been particularly hard-hit by cuts in local authority funding. For example, in North Ayrshire alone last year, 43 women and 67 children had to be refused refuge accommodation due to inadequate funding. Will the minister explain how local authorities are expected, given the continuing cuts in local authority funding, to match the funding that is being given?

Many priority areas must be addressed, including the development of services for children affected by domestic violence and improvement of services for victims in rural areas. Further, as George Reid said, it is recognised that disabled women, those suffering from mental health illnesses and those with drug and alcohol problems are particularly at risk.

I welcome today's statement, but we all know that there is a long way to go. If we are to achieve our aims, we must implement a national strategy as a necessary part of the campaign. There can be no excuse for domestic violence, and there can be no excuse for this Parliament not paying due attention to the needs of those afflicted by domestic violence. I urge members to support the amended motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C709912", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Domestic Violence", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26948, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 62.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 62.0, "ID": 26948, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 115.0, "ContributionID": 709912, "EditedText": "I congratulate the Scottish Partnership on Domestic Abuse which, to its credit, produced its report on time, and welcome the work that the organisation has put into the document. Christine Grahame made a strong point about the legal aid aspects of this issue, which the partnership and the minister should take on board. In particular, the partnership must have sufficient expertise to deal with the important issues that she raised. Although Mike Rumbles's speech did not go down too well in the chamber, he was brave to make his comments. Irrespective of popular feeling in the chamber, the issue of male abuse can be relevant. We should not forget the males who stay in the family home to protect their children—perhaps the text of the report puts that issue a little into the background. I accept that such males are very much a minority. Furthermore, I accept Johann Lamont's comments about female abuse, which perhaps touches more on male physical strength and the seriousness of male violence, as opposed to the lesser effects of the incidents that Mike Rumbles mentioned. Nonetheless, his comments were important. As the minister said, this is our second debate on domestic violence in a short period and I believe that the issue will be raised again in the not-too-distant future, as the report is on-going. The report has benefited from a full range of expertise from the various bodies involved with the issue and from the presence of the police, the courts and the Prison Service. The whole value of the report is its emphasis on co-operation between a range of organisations that deal daily with domestic violence issues.", "EditedTextHTML": "I congratulate the Scottish Partnership on Domestic Abuse which, to its credit, produced its report on time, and welcome the work that the organisation has put into the document.

Christine Grahame made a strong point about the legal aid aspects of this issue, which the partnership and the minister should take on board. In particular, the partnership must have sufficient expertise to deal with the important issues that she raised.

Although Mike Rumbles's speech did not go down too well in the chamber, he was brave to make his comments. Irrespective of popular feeling in the chamber, the issue of male abuse can be relevant. We should not forget the males who stay in the family home to protect their children—perhaps the text of the report puts that issue a little into the background. I accept that such males are very much a minority. Furthermore, I accept Johann Lamont's comments about female abuse, which perhaps touches more on male physical strength and the seriousness of male violence, as opposed to the lesser effects of the incidents that Mike Rumbles mentioned. Nonetheless, his comments were important.

As the minister said, this is our second debate on domestic violence in a short period and I believe that the issue will be raised again in the not-too-distant future, as the report is on-going.

The report has benefited from a full range of expertise from the various bodies involved with the issue and from the presence of the police, the courts and the Prison Service. The whole value of the report is its emphasis on co-operation between a range of organisations that deal daily with domestic violence issues.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C709914", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Domestic Violence", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26948, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 62.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 62.0, "ID": 26948, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 119.0, "ContributionID": 709914, "EditedText": "Well, no other member has been interrupted yet, but I will give way.", "EditedTextHTML": "Well, no other member has been interrupted yet, but I will give way.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709925", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26949, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 143.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 143.0, "ID": 26949, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 144.0, "ContributionID": 709925, "EditedText": "There are no Parliamentary Bureau motions to be considered, so we move straight to decision time. Before I call the votes, I ask members to check whether they have the right card in front of them; if they do not, there will be fraudulent votes. Laughter. I was not looking in any particular direction. The first question is, that amendment S1M-221.1, in the name of Mr Alex Salmond, which seeks to amend S1M-221, in the name of Ms Wendy Alexander, on domestic violence, be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "There are no Parliamentary Bureau motions to be considered, so we move straight to decision time. Before I call the votes, I ask members to check whether they have the right card in front of them; if they do not, there will be fraudulent votes. [Laughter.] I was not looking in any particular direction.

The first question is, that amendment S1M-221.1, in the name of Mr Alex Salmond, which seeks to amend S1M-221, in the name of Ms Wendy Alexander, on domestic violence, be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709927", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26949, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 143.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 143.0, "ID": 26949, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 147.0, "ContributionID": 709927, "EditedText": "The second question is, that motion S1M-221, in the name of Ms Wendy Alexander, as amended, be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "The second question is, that motion S1M-221, in the name of Ms Wendy Alexander, as amended, be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1762E216P508C709923", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Domestic Violence", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26948, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 62.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 62.0, "ID": 26948, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Elder, Dorothy-Grace", "ID": 1762, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 139.0, "ContributionID": 709923, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1769E16P282C709935", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Telecommunications", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26950, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 153.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 153.0, "ID": 26950, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Smith, Elaine", "ID": 1769, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Coatbridge and Chryston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Smith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Elaine Smith (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 162.0, "ContributionID": 709935, "EditedText": "I am pleased to participate in the debate, and I thank Nick Johnston for raising the issue. I also thank members who have shown support for the motion and the one that I lodged on telecommunications developments. The issue has undoubtedly caused concern to communities throughout Scotland, and certainly to some in my constituency of Coatbridge and Chryston. The erection of telecommunications masts in residential areas, near schools, nurseries and play areas, has sparked anxiety among parents, communities and society in general. Recent reports have suggested links between the emissions from those masts and serious illnesses, but the NRPB has stated that \"there is no evidence to suggest that these masts or their emissions are dangerous or a threat to public health.\" Importantly, the board has not stated categorically that the masts are safe. Its findings and statement do nothing to dispel the fears of our communities. Indeed, they may further fuel the notion that the emissions from those masts are not safe. Dr Helen Irvine, consultant in public health medicine at Greater Glasgow Health Board, recently called for the implementation of the precautionary principle when it is proposed that masts be erected near schools, play areas, nurseries and residential areas until such time as evidence is found conclusively to determine their safety or otherwise. I hope that that stance will be supported by members and implemented by local authorities throughout Scotland. It is important, however, to note that local authorities can take action only in respect to their own land and buildings. They have no formal role in any decision-making process regarding proposed masts under 15 m in height on private land—as Nick mentioned. Such masts can appear unannounced and unplanned and have caused a certain amount of visual pollution of the environment. Authorities are also unclear on their legal ability to reject planning applications solely on the basis of the public perception of danger. Despite receiving about 400 protests to a planning application for the erection of a mast in a small community in my constituency, the local authority felt ill at ease with including public perception as one of the planning considerations in rejecting the application. That was because of the lack of clear, unequivocal guidance on the public perception of danger as a valid planning consideration. I commend the authority on its decision to refuse planning permission for that development. Such planning factors can and should be addressed by the Parliament. Like Nick, I acknowledge the inquiry recently set up by the Transport and the Environment Committee, into planning and other issues surrounding telecommunications developments. I welcome the Scottish Executive's proposals to address some of the concerns surrounding those developments. However, its proposal to implement a prior approval scheme for masts under 15 m does not fully address the two most important factors that relate to permitted developments: public concern and local authority powers. It is an anomaly in our planning process that the public's concern about those developments, justified or not, cannot be formally raised when dealing with masts under 15 m high and cannot be definitively construed as a valid planning consideration regardless of the height of any proposed mast. Giving full powers to local authorities to carry out a formal consultation process and to make informed decisions, rather than suggestions, on all such developments would help to ease public anxiety and would allow the authorities better to control the siting of all developments to the areas of least possible impact. The prior approval scheme will depend too heavily on the good will of developers to make alterations to their proposals. It is likely that any developer submitting a proposal for the erection of a mast at a particular site would have previously investigated other options, and so would be reluctant to make alternative arrangements. I call on the Executive to rethink the introduction of the scheme, and instead to remove telecommunications developments from the class of permitted developments in the Town and Country Planning (General Permitted Development) (Scotland) Order 1992. I ask the Executive to issue guidance to planning authorities on the legality of accepting public perception—on health or any other grounds—as a valid planning consideration. We are a new legislature and can lead the way in effectively addressing the concerns over the issue. We must take the steps that are necessary to ease the anxiety in our communities throughout Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am pleased to participate in the debate, and I thank Nick Johnston for raising the issue. I also thank members who have shown support for the motion and the one that I lodged on telecommunications developments.

The issue has undoubtedly caused concern to communities throughout Scotland, and certainly to

some in my constituency of Coatbridge and Chryston. The erection of telecommunications masts in residential areas, near schools, nurseries and play areas, has sparked anxiety among parents, communities and society in general. Recent reports have suggested links between the emissions from those masts and serious illnesses, but the NRPB has stated that

\"there is no evidence to suggest that these masts or their emissions are dangerous or a threat to public health.\"

Importantly, the board has not stated categorically that the masts are safe. Its findings and statement do nothing to dispel the fears of our communities. Indeed, they may further fuel the notion that the emissions from those masts are not safe.

Dr Helen Irvine, consultant in public health medicine at Greater Glasgow Health Board, recently called for the implementation of the precautionary principle when it is proposed that masts be erected near schools, play areas, nurseries and residential areas until such time as evidence is found conclusively to determine their safety or otherwise. I hope that that stance will be supported by members and implemented by local authorities throughout Scotland.

It is important, however, to note that local authorities can take action only in respect to their own land and buildings. They have no formal role in any decision-making process regarding proposed masts under 15 m in height on private land—as Nick mentioned. Such masts can appear unannounced and unplanned and have caused a certain amount of visual pollution of the environment.

Authorities are also unclear on their legal ability to reject planning applications solely on the basis of the public perception of danger. Despite receiving about 400 protests to a planning application for the erection of a mast in a small community in my constituency, the local authority felt ill at ease with including public perception as one of the planning considerations in rejecting the application. That was because of the lack of clear, unequivocal guidance on the public perception of danger as a valid planning consideration. I commend the authority on its decision to refuse planning permission for that development.

Such planning factors can and should be addressed by the Parliament. Like Nick, I acknowledge the inquiry recently set up by the Transport and the Environment Committee, into planning and other issues surrounding telecommunications developments. I welcome the Scottish Executive's proposals to address some of the concerns surrounding those developments. However, its proposal to implement a prior approval scheme for masts under 15 m does not fully address the two most important factors that relate to permitted developments: public concern and local authority powers. It is an anomaly in our planning process that the public's concern about those developments, justified or not, cannot be formally raised when dealing with masts under 15 m high and cannot be definitively construed as a valid planning consideration regardless of the height of any proposed mast.

Giving full powers to local authorities to carry out a formal consultation process and to make informed decisions, rather than suggestions, on all such developments would help to ease public anxiety and would allow the authorities better to control the siting of all developments to the areas of least possible impact.

The prior approval scheme will depend too heavily on the good will of developers to make alterations to their proposals. It is likely that any developer submitting a proposal for the erection of a mast at a particular site would have previously investigated other options, and so would be reluctant to make alternative arrangements.

I call on the Executive to rethink the introduction of the scheme, and instead to remove telecommunications developments from the class of permitted developments in the Town and Country Planning (General Permitted Development) (Scotland) Order 1992. I ask the Executive to issue guidance to planning authorities on the legality of accepting public perception—on health or any other grounds—as a valid planning consideration.

We are a new legislature and can lead the way in effectively addressing the concerns over the issue. We must take the steps that are necessary to ease the anxiety in our communities throughout Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C709936", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Telecommunications", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26950, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 153.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 153.0, "ID": 26950, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bruce Crawford (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 165.0, "ContributionID": 709936, "EditedText": "I thank Nick Johnston for his motion. It concerns an issue that should be addressed. I want to reflect on the experience that I have had with a telecommunications mast in Kinross, which is in the constituency that Nick and I share. It has been a dreadful experience. I was the leader of Perth and Kinross Council when the mast was erected. It was erected under permitted development rights, and under powers that were delegated to officials, and so was in the process of being erected before many of us became aware of it, although the people next door to the mast—who happen to be here today—became aware of it sooner than we did. The mast has been called a number of things, such as Kinross's folly, and I have heard it called Crawford's folly, because I was the leader of the council at the time. The mast is a hideous abomination and we must find a way to address that, perhaps through legislation. I know that we cannot legislate retrospectively, but a method must be found through a legislative process to get rid of the carbuncles that already exist. I do not know what that process might be, but we must find a way to do it. In dealing with the issue of masts, I was concerned that we had a dispute between what the planners were saying and what the local people understood the legislation said. Unfortunately, the matter will need to be resolved by the courts. There are extremely grey areas in the legislation around the interpretation of words such as differing and sizes. That must be sorted out. As we have heard, many local authorities have taken prudent avoidance action with regard to their schools and other places. Many fire brigades are doing the same, and a number of police forces are now waking up to the issue. The mast in Kinross that I referred to is at the back of a police station. I understand that Tayside police are reviewing their policy on telecommunications masts because of the difficulties that have arisen. As a Parliament, we need to take on board the thrust of the Maastricht guidance on prudent avoidance and on the precautionary principle. Other countries have done that. New Zealand has a safety limit that is 1,000 times less than that which exists in the UK, so we must take on board international evidence when we deal with the issue. We have seen masts taken down because of public pressure. I hope that because of Nick's actions today, through the work of all-party groups and through all-party pressure, we can have the mast in Kinross removed from our shared constituency. I also hope that through joint action and joint agreement in this Parliament we can introduce proposals that can start to deal in a much more meaningful way not only with future masts, but with the masts that have already been erected, so that we can resite them to much more satisfactory positions. I could go on and on about the subject, because it has driven me to distraction for a number of years, but other members wish to speak and I will let them do so.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank Nick Johnston for his motion. It concerns an issue that should be addressed.

I want to reflect on the experience that I have had with a telecommunications mast in Kinross, which is in the constituency that Nick and I share. It has been a dreadful experience. I was the leader of Perth and Kinross Council when the mast was erected. It was erected under permitted development rights, and under powers that were delegated to officials, and so was in the process of being erected before many of us became aware of it, although the people next door to the mast—who happen to be here today—became aware of it sooner than we did.

The mast has been called a number of things, such as Kinross's folly, and I have heard it called Crawford's folly, because I was the leader of the

council at the time. The mast is a hideous abomination and we must find a way to address that, perhaps through legislation. I know that we cannot legislate retrospectively, but a method must be found through a legislative process to get rid of the carbuncles that already exist. I do not know what that process might be, but we must find a way to do it.

In dealing with the issue of masts, I was concerned that we had a dispute between what the planners were saying and what the local people understood the legislation said. Unfortunately, the matter will need to be resolved by the courts. There are extremely grey areas in the legislation around the interpretation of words such as differing and sizes. That must be sorted out.

As we have heard, many local authorities have taken prudent avoidance action with regard to their schools and other places. Many fire brigades are doing the same, and a number of police forces are now waking up to the issue. The mast in Kinross that I referred to is at the back of a police station. I understand that Tayside police are reviewing their policy on telecommunications masts because of the difficulties that have arisen.

As a Parliament, we need to take on board the thrust of the Maastricht guidance on prudent avoidance and on the precautionary principle. Other countries have done that. New Zealand has a safety limit that is 1,000 times less than that which exists in the UK, so we must take on board international evidence when we deal with the issue.

We have seen masts taken down because of public pressure. I hope that because of Nick's actions today, through the work of all-party groups and through all-party pressure, we can have the mast in Kinross removed from our shared constituency. I also hope that through joint action and joint agreement in this Parliament we can introduce proposals that can start to deal in a much more meaningful way not only with future masts, but with the masts that have already been erected, so that we can resite them to much more satisfactory positions.

I could go on and on about the subject, because it has driven me to distraction for a number of years, but other members wish to speak and I will let them do so.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1769E16P282C709942", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Telecommunications", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26950, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 153.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 153.0, "ID": 26950, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Smith, Elaine", "ID": 1769, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Coatbridge and Chryston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Smith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Elaine Smith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 179.0, "ContributionID": 709942, "EditedText": "I move,That the debate be extended.", "EditedTextHTML": "I move,

That the debate be extended.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1769E16P282C709940", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Telecommunications", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26950, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 153.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 153.0, "ID": 26950, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Smith, Elaine", "ID": 1769, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Coatbridge and Chryston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Smith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Elaine Smith rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 175.0, "ContributionID": 709940, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1769E16P282C709944", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Telecommunications", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26950, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 153.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 153.0, "ID": 26950, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Smith, Elaine", "ID": 1769, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Coatbridge and Chryston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Smith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Elaine Smith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 183.0, "ContributionID": 709944, "EditedText": "The maximum time would be 6 o'clock.", "EditedTextHTML": "The maximum time would be 6 o'clock.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1770E82P108C709952", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Telecommunications", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26950, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 153.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 153.0, "ID": 26950, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Thomson, Elaine", "ID": 1770, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Thomson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Elaine Thomson (Aberdeen North) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 202.0, "ContributionID": 709952, "EditedText": "I, too, also welcome the opportunity to speak in this debate and congratulate Nick Johnston on bringing the issue forward. The current spread of telecommunication masts is undoubtedly causing people concern. It is not just in Mid Scotland and Fife that radio masts are springing up. In my constituency, Aberdeen North, the residents of Bridge of Don now have two masts that cause them concern. One is under 15 m, so it did not require planning permission and appeared at the bottom of their gardens one morning without advance consultation. The second mast has been in place for more than 20 years. It originally had only a couple of dishes on it, but over the last year it has blossomed—if that is the right word—with new dishes and transmitters. Extra buildings and generators are also being built around its base. The current extension will apparently make it one of the biggest Cellnet transmitters in Scotland. I welcome the work that the Transport and the Environment Committee is doing in this area. Some of my constituents have contributed to the consultation that is being carried out by that committee. The use of mobile phones is exploding. As was mentioned, one in four of the population now has one. Given some of the other technological changes, such as access to the internet via mobile phones, this market will continue to grow. It grew by 54 per cent in 1998 and the UK is now the third largest wireless market in Europe. We will soon all carry a mobile phone or an equivalent communication device. That will undoubtedly mean the erection and expansion of more telecommunication masts. We must ask what the risks are. People are concerned about the risks of the use of mobile phones and about living close to these masts. There is uncertainty, which must be dealt with. As has also been mentioned, many local authorities no longer permit the erection of masts and transmitters near or on schools. That underlines their belief that there are health risks, although those risks might or might not exist. More research must be done so that people can be reassured. That certainly applies to those who live close to masts. As a result of the current planning regulations they, as I outlined earlier, often have little or no control over the extension or erection of masts close to them. There are other questions, some of whichRichard referred to. All sorts of bodies, including the Royal Society of Canada, have said that the evidence is unclear on the neurological effects— headaches, nausea, tiredness, sleep problems and memory loss—of using mobile phones, and that further research is justified. I sometimes suffer from those problems but, so far, I have put them down to my life as an MSP rather than to use of my mobile phone. Like many people I wonder what the risks are. I also welcome the creation of the independent expert group on mobile phones and I look forward to hearing its conclusions. We need to know—for our own sakes and for the sake of everybody in Scotland—what the risks are of using mobile phones or living close to radio masts. We need to know whether there are genuine health risks or whether we can allay people's fears.", "EditedTextHTML": "I, too, also welcome the opportunity to speak in this debate and congratulate Nick Johnston on bringing the issue forward.

The current spread of telecommunication masts is undoubtedly causing people concern. It is not just in Mid Scotland and Fife that radio masts are springing up. In my constituency, Aberdeen North, the residents of Bridge of Don now have two masts that cause them concern. One is under 15 m, so it did not require planning permission and appeared at the bottom of their gardens one morning without advance consultation. The second mast has been in place for more than 20 years. It originally had only a couple of dishes on it, but over the last year it has blossomed—if that is the right word—with new dishes and transmitters. Extra buildings and generators are also being built around its base. The current extension will apparently make it one of the biggest Cellnet transmitters in Scotland.

I welcome the work that the Transport and the Environment Committee is doing in this area. Some of my constituents have contributed to the consultation that is being carried out by that committee.

The use of mobile phones is exploding. As was mentioned, one in four of the population now has one. Given some of the other technological changes, such as access to the internet via mobile phones, this market will continue to grow. It grew by 54 per cent in 1998 and the UK is now the third largest wireless market in Europe. We will soon all carry a mobile phone or an equivalent communication device. That will undoubtedly mean the erection and expansion of more telecommunication masts.

We must ask what the risks are. People are concerned about the risks of the use of mobile phones and about living close to these masts. There is uncertainty, which must be dealt with. As has also been mentioned, many local authorities no longer permit the erection of masts and transmitters near or on schools. That underlines their belief that there are health risks, although those risks might or might not exist. More research must be done so that people can be reassured. That certainly applies to those who live close to masts. As a result of the current planning regulations they, as I outlined earlier, often have little or no control over the extension or erection of masts close to them.

There are other questions, some of which

Richard referred to. All sorts of bodies, including the Royal Society of Canada, have said that the evidence is unclear on the neurological effects— headaches, nausea, tiredness, sleep problems and memory loss—of using mobile phones, and that further research is justified. I sometimes suffer from those problems but, so far, I have put them down to my life as an MSP rather than to use of my mobile phone.

Like many people I wonder what the risks are. I also welcome the creation of the independent expert group on mobile phones and I look forward to hearing its conclusions. We need to know—for our own sakes and for the sake of everybody in Scotland—what the risks are of using mobile phones or living close to radio masts. We need to know whether there are genuine health risks or whether we can allay people's fears.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2152E53P75C709954", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Telecommunications", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26950, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 153.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 153.0, "ID": 26950, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnston, Nick", "ID": 2152, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nick Johnston", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Johnston: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 207.0, "ContributionID": 709954, "EditedText": "Am I correct that if the planning authority fails to meet the time scales, the operator would have the right to carry out the development anyway?", "EditedTextHTML": "Am I correct that if the planning authority fails to meet the time scales, the operator would have the right to carry out the development anyway?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C709956", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Telecommunications", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26950, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 153.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 153.0, "ID": 26950, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 211.0, "ContributionID": 709956, "EditedText": "Thank you very much. That brings the debate to a close for this evening. I thank members for their attendance.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you very much. That brings the debate to a close for this evening. I thank members for their attendance.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709957", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Telecommunications", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26950, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 153.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 153.0, "ID": 26950, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 213.0, "ContributionID": 709957, "EditedText": "Meeting closed at 17:50.", "EditedTextHTML": "Meeting closed at 17:50.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C709871", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Meningococcal C Immunisation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26947, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26947, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 16.0, "ContributionID": 709871, "EditedText": "The first licence for the new meningitis C vaccine has been approved in the past week. We expect further licences to be granted in the months ahead. We hope that that will enable the programme that I have outlined today to be rolled out. It is important to recognise that the supply and production arrangements of different vaccines vary. We should not generalise about problems of vaccine supply. It does not follow that there will be problems in the supply of vaccine in one area because there have been problems in another area. It is important to clarify the situation as regards students. The vaccine that has been made available to students recently is the polysaccharide vaccine, which is not effective on babies and young children but which can be offered to older people. Students were seen to be a high-risk category and that vaccine was offered to them to ensure wide coverage. The arrangements that were put in place during the summer months ensured that students across Scotland could get access to the vaccine before they went to college or university, or from the medical centres of the colleges or universities.", "EditedTextHTML": "The first licence for the new meningitis C vaccine has been approved in the past week. We expect further licences to be

granted in the months ahead. We hope that that will enable the programme that I have outlined today to be rolled out.

It is important to recognise that the supply and production arrangements of different vaccines vary. We should not generalise about problems of vaccine supply. It does not follow that there will be problems in the supply of vaccine in one area because there have been problems in another area.

It is important to clarify the situation as regards students. The vaccine that has been made available to students recently is the polysaccharide vaccine, which is not effective on babies and young children but which can be offered to older people. Students were seen to be a high-risk category and that vaccine was offered to them to ensure wide coverage.

The arrangements that were put in place during the summer months ensured that students across Scotland could get access to the vaccine before they went to college or university, or from the medical centres of the colleges or universities.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C709872", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Meningococcal C Immunisation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26947, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26947, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 18.0, "ContributionID": 709872, "EditedText": "Conservative members, too, welcome the minister's statement. It takes three months to build up immunity to meningitis C, but the vaccine was not available to students before they went to university. I raised that problem in a written question on 10 September—seven weeks ago—after constituents in the Highlands told me that they feared that their children would be vulnerable to infection when they went to university. I would like to know why my question was not answered. I would also like to point out the concerns of students who were vaccinated in freshers' week and will remain vulnerable to infection for the next three months. Moreover, does the minister have plans for the vaccination of second-year and third-year students? They are just as vulnerable as first-year students. The advice that I have been given by GPs is that it takes one minute to vaccinate and five minutes to complete the administration. We all welcome the new initiative but, given the case load that will result, will the administration for GPs be reduced to a minimum to assist the swift implementation of this programme?", "EditedTextHTML": "Conservative members, too, welcome the minister's statement.

It takes three months to build up immunity to meningitis C, but the vaccine was not available to students before they went to university. I raised that problem in a written question on 10 September—seven weeks ago—after constituents in the Highlands told me that they feared that their children would be vulnerable to infection when they went to university. I would like to know why my question was not answered. I would also like to point out the concerns of students who were vaccinated in freshers' week and will remain vulnerable to infection for the next three months. Moreover, does the minister have plans for the vaccination of second-year and third-year students? They are just as vulnerable as first-year students.

The advice that I have been given by GPs is that it takes one minute to vaccinate and five minutes to complete the administration. We all welcome the new initiative but, given the case load that will result, will the administration for GPs be reduced to a minimum to assist the swift implementation of this programme?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C709877", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Meningococcal C Immunisation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26947, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26947, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 28.0, "ContributionID": 709877, "EditedText": "There are several different parts to that question and I shall take the last point first. The vaccine that is being given to students is different in its effectiveness—individuals who receive it require to be vaccinated again within three to five years. It is also different, as I indicated earlier, because it is not suitable for babies and young children. I hope that that addresses that point. On investment, the figures that I cited represent the global sum required for the implementation of the programme, which covers the cost of the vaccine, the payments that will be made to GPs for each immunisation and additional elements of implementing the programme, including the extensive information and publicity campaign. I am pleased to say that that investment means that every child in Scotland will be immunised free of charge.", "EditedTextHTML": "There are several different parts to that question and I shall take the last point first. The vaccine that is being given to students is different in its effectiveness—individuals who receive it require to be vaccinated again within three to five years. It is also different, as I indicated earlier, because it is not suitable for babies and young children. I hope that that addresses that point.

On investment, the figures that I cited represent the global sum required for the implementation of the programme, which covers the cost of the vaccine, the payments that will be made to GPs for each immunisation and additional elements of implementing the programme, including the extensive information and publicity campaign. I am pleased to say that that investment means that every child in Scotland will be immunised free of charge.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C709881", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Meningococcal C Immunisation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26947, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26947, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 36.0, "ContributionID": 709881, "EditedText": "Mr Hamilton's first point is well made. Research must continue in this area and we continue to support such research. The Medical Research Council spends £1.2 million per year on meningitis-related research. On his second point, the fact is that there are many variants of the disease and the impact of the condition can vary greatly. Therefore, there is no universal answer to the treatment of sufferers of meningitis. However, I stress that our commitment to providing the highest quality services to people across Scotland, irrespective of their condition, is very real.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Hamilton's first point is well made. Research must continue in this area and we continue to support such research. The Medical Research Council spends £1.2 million per year on meningitis-related research. On his second point, the fact is that there are many variants of the disease and the impact of the condition can vary greatly. Therefore, there is no universal answer to the treatment of sufferers of meningitis. However, I stress that our commitment to providing the highest quality services to people across Scotland, irrespective of their condition, is very real.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C709885", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Meningococcal C Immunisation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26947, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26947, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 44.0, "ContributionID": 709885, "EditedText": "I do not recall making references in quite that way when I answered the question. Let me clarify again what has been offered to students this year, not in relation to the new MenC vaccine, but in relation to the existing, available vaccine. Students in their first year at college or university, who as such have been identified as being at increased risk, have been offered that vaccine. They have been offered it before the start of the new college or university term. For those who have been unable to get it through that route, we have put arrangements in place to make the vaccine available on students' arrival at college and university. I am conscious that points have been raised about the student programme; if members want to raise wider points about it, I am more than happy to investigate them fully. However, I am keen today to ensure that we are clear about the new vaccine programme that is being introduced and the target groups that we are going to reach— notably our children and young babies—through it.", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not recall making references in quite that way when I answered the question. Let me clarify again what has been offered to students this year, not in relation to the new MenC vaccine, but in relation to the existing, available vaccine. Students in their first year at college or university, who as such have been identified as being at increased risk, have been offered that vaccine. They have been offered it before the start of the new college or university term. For those who have been unable to get it through that route, we have put arrangements in place to make the vaccine available on students' arrival at college and university.

I am conscious that points have been raised about the student programme; if members want to raise wider points about it, I am more than happy to investigate them fully. However, I am keen today to ensure that we are clear about the new vaccine programme that is being introduced and the target groups that we are going to reach— notably our children and young babies—through it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C709886", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Meningococcal C Immunisation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26947, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26947, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Brian Monteith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 46.0, "ContributionID": 709886, "EditedText": "I, too, will join the universal chorus of welcome for the minister's announcement, not least because I am the father of two 11-year-old boys. Having heard the minister, I take it that she is quite confident when she assures us that the MenC vaccine will be readily available. If that is indeed the case, why is it that—well into October, after term has started—Mary Scanlon has yet to receive an answer to a question that she asked on 10 September, before term started, about the availability of such a vaccine? The only answer that she has received has been through the statement today. Surely it is proper for a member to expect an answer on such an important issue, where time is of the essence, within seven weeks. Even now, she has not received the answer.", "EditedTextHTML": "I, too, will join the universal chorus of welcome for the minister's announcement, not least because I am the father of two 11-year-old boys.

Having heard the minister, I take it that she is quite confident when she assures us that the MenC vaccine will be readily available. If that is indeed the case, why is it that—well into October, after term has started—Mary Scanlon has yet to receive an answer to a question that she asked on 10 September, before term started, about the availability of such a vaccine? The only answer that she has received has been through the statement today. Surely it is proper for a member to expect an answer on such an important issue, where time is of the essence, within seven weeks. Even now, she has not received the answer.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C709889", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Meningococcal C Immunisation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26947, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 8.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 8.0, "ID": 26947, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 52.0, "ContributionID": 709889, "EditedText": "That is an important question. I have stressed from the outset that the logistical exercise that we are embarked on is, to say the least, significant. School would be the normal place for 16 and 17-year–olds who are at school to receive the vaccine; the issue of 16 and 17-year-olds who are no longer at school is one that the implementation group is actively considering. I fully expect there to be further information and advice on that very point in the near future.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is an important question. I have stressed from the outset that the logistical exercise that we are embarked on is, to say the least, significant. School would be the normal place for 16 and 17-year–olds who are at school to receive the vaccine; the issue of 16 and 17-year-olds who are no longer at school is one that the implementation group is actively considering. I fully expect there to be further information and advice on that very point in the near future.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1863E284P532C709896", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Domestic Violence", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26948, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 62.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 62.0, "ID": 26948, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Cunningham, Roseanna", "ID": 1863, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Perth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Roseanna Cunningham", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Roseanna Cunningham (Perth) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 69.0, "ContributionID": 709896, "EditedText": "Like everyone here, I welcome today's debate. I hope that what I have to say will show that the amendment is not simply rhetoric, as the minister fears. I welcome the funding announcement: it is animportant step forward, because we should all be aware of the extent of the problem. Anyone who is uncertain need only have listened to evidence given to the Justice and Home Affairs Committee on 22 September. That evidence, particularly from the police, excited a great deal of media comment, perhaps because it was the police talking about the \"ingrained\" problem in Scottish society and referring to the \"hugely under-reported\" extent of this area of criminal activity. At that committee meeting, Chief Superintendent Stewart Davidson pointed out that of the incidents reported to the police, an estimated 73 per cent involved physical violence. That figure is extraordinarily high, especially when we know that there is so much under-reporting. In society, a major problem surrounds the treatment of men who are guilty of this crime—I mean not just in terms of the way in which the legal system deals with it. Society still seems to find it difficult to judge impartially men who are known to be guilty of this crime. When it is confronted by men who vent their anger on women in this way, frequently society still sees them as lax—that concerns me. The noise generated by a violent assault taking place can still fall on deaf ears, even in the poshest of hotels. I know about that from the incident at Gleneagles involving a prominent footballer. As a society, confronted by the visible evidence of black eyes and broken limbs—the harsh reality of such an assault—we still seem to find it possible to accord a place to the men who carry out such abuse. I find that difficult to deal with. We wish it were not so, but the view is still expressed—although not by the police—that such matters are private. It is a long time since the police expressed that view, but—regrettably— there are still areas of our society where the matter is treated in that way. It is still thought that the knowledge of those activities should not affect the man's employment, his job prospects, his prominent position and his status in the community, and that he can go on being a media darling, if that is the case. That sends out an appalling message to people, particularly young people, in our society. While we now recognise more widely the crime for what it is, there is still a reluctance to intervene. There is little point in simply blaming the police, if the rest of us affect deafness and blindness when we are confronted with the evidence. Of course, when I say us, I am not saying that people in this chamber would choose to act in that way. I talk about us as a society. However, we would be kidding ourselves if we did not recognise the complexities of dealing with domestic violence. It strikes right at the heart of one of the institutions that we have all been raised to think of as synonymous with safety. The echoes can be heard down the generations—I am talking about the family. Last year in the press, and again this year before the Justice and Home Affairs Committee, details of research on the residents of Cornton Vale prison were a matter of public comment. They are worth reiterating. I was utterly astonished at the figures showing the extent to which the women in that prison were themselves victims of crime; survivors might be a better way of describing it. Seventy per cent of those incarcerated in Cornton Vale have suffered emotional abuse. Sixty per cent have suffered physical abuse. Fifty per cent have suffered sexual abuse. The abuse usually started when the women were young and continued into their adulthood, even if the identity of the perpetrator changed. Having been the victims of crime, they were now committing crime themselves. It is a disgrace that we have people in our society who live in a world where that is the cycle of their lives. The Scottish National party recognises that what is required is a combined approach that tackles the problem on a number of fronts. In each of the areas, there are clearly identified problems. The first area is education, which should be looked at in terms of society in general and—equally—in terms of the professionals. The Deputy Minister for Communities has already referred to something to which I was going to refer, which is the worrying suggestion—shown by the Zero Tolerance Trust's research—that we seem to be making very little headway with the next generation on the issue. It is incomprehensible to me that we have not made any progress in that area. We need to work within the education system to try to redress quickly that worrying trend. The series of television advertisements that ran some years ago—and more recent ones—were an excellent way to help that process. However, I cannot help feeling that brief campaigns might work only briefly and that what we need is a long- term, co-ordinated campaign. That brings me to the issue of resourcing, which is part and parcel of today's announcement by the Executive. Anyone who has had dealings with people who are active in the field will know that there has been a serious problem of funding, especially as a result of restraints imposed by the Social Work (Scotland) Act 1968. We all recognise the difficulties in respect of that. I know that in information that it provided, Scottish Women's Aid said that it wanted there to be a national funding strategy to resource local groups, as well as its national office. That should be an important component of any revised funding strategy. However, we should at least recognise the problem of the refuges that are unconnected with Scottish Women's Aid. Not all women's refuges are so connected. I will admit to having not appreciated that until a year or two ago; like most people, I made the assumption that, if it is a refuge, it must be part of Scottish Women's Aid. That is not necessarily the case. I am aware of a number of refuges in the south-west of Scotland and in Aberdeen that are in that position. Shakti, the organisation that seeks to give assistance to women from ethnic minorities, is also in that position. It is worth making a special mention of Shakti in the context of the debate, because it deals with particular problems—the same problems that are manifested elsewhere in society, but writ slightly larger. The briefing from Shakti states clearly that there is a problem of toleration of domestic abuse in many ethnic minority communities, because to challenge it would threaten family honour and the social standing of male members of the family. Over the past two years, Shakti has struggled to maintain a basic level of funding. The problems that Shakti is referring to are not confined to ethnic minorities, although they may be exacerbated in some of those communities. I seek the minister's assurance that refuges that are not affiliated to Scottish Women's Aid—for whatever reason—will be included and not excluded. Perhaps she could indicate where they will stand in the funding initiative. I hope that the title of the fund indicates a non-prescriptive approach. I have already discussed campaigns. The problem, as always, is how to resource longer- term campaigns—whether or not they be police campaigns. It is rare now to get a truly national campaign, except in the media. Without that, we are left with the vagaries of more local funding and more local decision making. Alternatively, we end up with a number of pilot projects dotted here and there, none of which is followed through, and with access to the service dependent entirely on where people live. A good example is a project that I will talk about a little later—the probation project, which is currently available only in Edinburgh. National funding has long been necessary. I do not want to attack decentralisation, but in some policy areas it simply will not work. We have talked about rape crisis centres being funded in some areas but not others, and about women's refuges being kept open in some areas but starved of funds in others. It is now arguable that responsibility for maintaining and building on existing resources should be gathered into one pair of hands, so that we get consistency of provision across the board. I have long thought that that is one way in which the Parliament could make a difference. If I have one small concern about today's announcement, it is about the reference to matched funding. I worry that that will mean that, over the next few years, the patchy provision that I mentioned will be replicated. Will the minister comment on that in her reply? Finally, I wish briefly to refer to legal initiatives. As the minister knows, the Justice and Home Affairs Committee is considering carefully a possible legal change in a particular area. I hope that that will show the Parliament's committee structure in a very good light. My colleague on the committee, Maureen Macmillan, no doubt hopes to speak later in the debate, because she is the reporter on that aspect of the committee's deliberations. I will leave a longer explanation to her. I want to commend to Parliament's attention the domestic violence probation project to which I referred earlier, which is currently operational only in Edinburgh. That has been set up specifically to deal with the issue of men's attitudes towards domestic violence after their prosecution and conviction, and to challenge them directly. Such projects should be available throughout Scotland, and I would appreciate a response from the minister on that. The Justice and Home Affairs Committee has considered the partnership's work, and our concern about it relates to the time scale. I note that in the final work plan most of the implementation dates are in the first half of 2001. Today's funding announcement is welcome, but I hope that, as a result of the announcement and the debate, Parliament can do even more for women over the next 18 months, rather than make them wait another 18 months until the work plan is implemented. I hope that the minister will respond to those points. I move amendment S1M-221.1, to insert at end,\"while at the same time recognising that a national strategy which includes public education and prevention programmes, shelter and support services and law enforcement initiatives remains an essential part of the campaign.\"", "EditedTextHTML": "Like everyone here, I welcome today's debate. I hope that what I have to say will show that the amendment is not simply rhetoric, as the minister fears.

I welcome the funding announcement: it is an

important step forward, because we should all be aware of the extent of the problem. Anyone who is uncertain need only have listened to evidence given to the Justice and Home Affairs Committee on 22 September. That evidence, particularly from the police, excited a great deal of media comment, perhaps because it was the police talking about the \"ingrained\" problem in Scottish society and referring to the \"hugely under-reported\" extent of this area of criminal activity. At that committee meeting, Chief Superintendent Stewart Davidson pointed out that of the incidents reported to the police, an estimated 73 per cent involved physical violence. That figure is extraordinarily high, especially when we know that there is so much under-reporting.

In society, a major problem surrounds the treatment of men who are guilty of this crime—I mean not just in terms of the way in which the legal system deals with it. Society still seems to find it difficult to judge impartially men who are known to be guilty of this crime. When it is confronted by men who vent their anger on women in this way, frequently society still sees them as lax—that concerns me. The noise generated by a violent assault taking place can still fall on deaf ears, even in the poshest of hotels. I know about that from the incident at Gleneagles involving a prominent footballer. As a society, confronted by the visible evidence of black eyes and broken limbs—the harsh reality of such an assault—we still seem to find it possible to accord a place to the men who carry out such abuse. I find that difficult to deal with.

We wish it were not so, but the view is still expressed—although not by the police—that such matters are private. It is a long time since the police expressed that view, but—regrettably— there are still areas of our society where the matter is treated in that way.

It is still thought that the knowledge of those activities should not affect the man's employment, his job prospects, his prominent position and his status in the community, and that he can go on being a media darling, if that is the case. That sends out an appalling message to people, particularly young people, in our society.

While we now recognise more widely the crime for what it is, there is still a reluctance to intervene. There is little point in simply blaming the police, if the rest of us affect deafness and blindness when we are confronted with the evidence. Of course, when I say us, I am not saying that people in this chamber would choose to act in that way. I talk about us as a society. However, we would be kidding ourselves if we did not recognise the complexities of dealing with domestic violence. It strikes right at the heart of one of the institutions that we have all been raised to think of as synonymous with safety. The echoes can be heard down the generations—I am talking about the family.

Last year in the press, and again this year before the Justice and Home Affairs Committee, details of research on the residents of Cornton Vale prison were a matter of public comment. They are worth reiterating. I was utterly astonished at the figures showing the extent to which the women in that prison were themselves victims of crime; survivors might be a better way of describing it. Seventy per cent of those incarcerated in Cornton Vale have suffered emotional abuse. Sixty per cent have suffered physical abuse. Fifty per cent have suffered sexual abuse. The abuse usually started when the women were young and continued into their adulthood, even if the identity of the perpetrator changed. Having been the victims of crime, they were now committing crime themselves. It is a disgrace that we have people in our society who live in a world where that is the cycle of their lives.

The Scottish National party recognises that what is required is a combined approach that tackles the problem on a number of fronts. In each of the areas, there are clearly identified problems. The first area is education, which should be looked at in terms of society in general and—equally—in terms of the professionals. The Deputy Minister for Communities has already referred to something to which I was going to refer, which is the worrying suggestion—shown by the Zero Tolerance Trust's research—that we seem to be making very little headway with the next generation on the issue. It is incomprehensible to me that we have not made any progress in that area. We need to work within the education system to try to redress quickly that worrying trend.

The series of television advertisements that ran some years ago—and more recent ones—were an excellent way to help that process. However, I cannot help feeling that brief campaigns might work only briefly and that what we need is a long- term, co-ordinated campaign.

That brings me to the issue of resourcing, which is part and parcel of today's announcement by the Executive. Anyone who has had dealings with people who are active in the field will know that there has been a serious problem of funding, especially as a result of restraints imposed by the Social Work (Scotland) Act 1968. We all recognise the difficulties in respect of that.

I know that in information that it provided, Scottish Women's Aid said that it wanted there to be a national funding strategy to resource local groups, as well as its national office. That should be an important component of any revised funding strategy. However, we should at least recognise the problem of the refuges that are unconnected

with Scottish Women's Aid. Not all women's refuges are so connected. I will admit to having not appreciated that until a year or two ago; like most people, I made the assumption that, if it is a refuge, it must be part of Scottish Women's Aid. That is not necessarily the case. I am aware of a number of refuges in the south-west of Scotland and in Aberdeen that are in that position.

Shakti, the organisation that seeks to give assistance to women from ethnic minorities, is also in that position. It is worth making a special mention of Shakti in the context of the debate, because it deals with particular problems—the same problems that are manifested elsewhere in society, but writ slightly larger. The briefing from Shakti states clearly that there is a problem of toleration of domestic abuse in many ethnic minority communities, because to challenge it would threaten family honour and the social standing of male members of the family. Over the past two years, Shakti has struggled to maintain a basic level of funding.

The problems that Shakti is referring to are not confined to ethnic minorities, although they may be exacerbated in some of those communities. I seek the minister's assurance that refuges that are not affiliated to Scottish Women's Aid—for whatever reason—will be included and not excluded. Perhaps she could indicate where they will stand in the funding initiative. I hope that the title of the fund indicates a non-prescriptive approach.

I have already discussed campaigns. The problem, as always, is how to resource longer- term campaigns—whether or not they be police campaigns. It is rare now to get a truly national campaign, except in the media. Without that, we are left with the vagaries of more local funding and more local decision making. Alternatively, we end up with a number of pilot projects dotted here and there, none of which is followed through, and with access to the service dependent entirely on where people live. A good example is a project that I will talk about a little later—the probation project, which is currently available only in Edinburgh.

National funding has long been necessary. I do not want to attack decentralisation, but in some policy areas it simply will not work. We have talked about rape crisis centres being funded in some areas but not others, and about women's refuges being kept open in some areas but starved of funds in others. It is now arguable that responsibility for maintaining and building on existing resources should be gathered into one pair of hands, so that we get consistency of provision across the board. I have long thought that that is one way in which the Parliament could make a difference.

If I have one small concern about today's announcement, it is about the reference to matched funding. I worry that that will mean that, over the next few years, the patchy provision that I mentioned will be replicated. Will the minister comment on that in her reply?

Finally, I wish briefly to refer to legal initiatives. As the minister knows, the Justice and Home Affairs Committee is considering carefully a possible legal change in a particular area. I hope that that will show the Parliament's committee structure in a very good light. My colleague on the committee, Maureen Macmillan, no doubt hopes to speak later in the debate, because she is the reporter on that aspect of the committee's deliberations. I will leave a longer explanation to her.

I want to commend to Parliament's attention the domestic violence probation project to which I referred earlier, which is currently operational only in Edinburgh. That has been set up specifically to deal with the issue of men's attitudes towards domestic violence after their prosecution and conviction, and to challenge them directly. Such projects should be available throughout Scotland, and I would appreciate a response from the minister on that.

The Justice and Home Affairs Committee has considered the partnership's work, and our concern about it relates to the time scale. I note that in the final work plan most of the implementation dates are in the first half of 2001. Today's funding announcement is welcome, but I hope that, as a result of the announcement and the debate, Parliament can do even more for women over the next 18 months, rather than make them wait another 18 months until the work plan is implemented. I hope that the minister will respond to those points.

I move amendment S1M-221.1, to insert at end,

\"while at the same time recognising that a national strategy which includes public education and prevention programmes, shelter and support services and law enforcement initiatives remains an essential part of the campaign.\"

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C709898", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Domestic Violence", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26948, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 62.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 62.0, "ID": 26948, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ms Patricia Ferguson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 74.0, "ContributionID": 709898, "EditedText": "Many members wish to speak in the debate. Speeches will be restricted to four minutes. I remind members that we now have clocks that show how long they have been speaking. In case there is any doubt, the clocks are located above me and on both sides of the chamber.", "EditedTextHTML": "Many members wish to speak in the debate. Speeches will be restricted to four minutes. I remind members that we now have clocks that show how long they have been speaking. In case there is any doubt, the clocks are located above me and on both sides of the chamber.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1850E185P354C709899", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Domestic Violence", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26948, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 62.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 62.0, "ID": 26948, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Radcliffe, Nora", "ID": 1850, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Gordon" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nora Radcliffe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nora Radcliffe (Gordon) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 77.0, "ContributionID": 709899, "EditedText": "It has taken a long time to get domestic violence into the public consciousness and onto the political agenda. The Scottish Partnership on Domestic Abuse is to be commended for its work, and I welcome its work plan: it has much to commend it. The research behind it has exploded some of the prevailing myths about domestic violence: it is not the fault of the victim; it can occur in all social groups; and it is not caused by drunkenness, poverty, stress and so on. The causes of domestic violence and discord are complex and many sided. Domestic disputes often begin with disputes about money, arguments over children, adulterous relationships or difficulties with in-laws. It is accepted that unemployment increases the pressure on families and the incidence of family breakdown, and there is frequently an alcohol or drugs element. None of those are excuses for violence against women. Domestic violence is about controlling behaviour, but it can become worse when other factors are present. The work plan addresses the fact that there is a need for a strategic and co-ordinated approach to this issue. I am glad to see the emphasis on the importance of consistent service delivery across Scotland, and across barriers of race, disability and geography. The work plan is an excellent piece of work, but nothing is perfect and nothing is ever enough. The remit of the group was to address domestic violence perpetrated against women and children, but we must not forget that men are also victims of domestic violence. That is recognised in passing on page five of the work plan. We should not lose sight of that. In addition, verbal abuse can be as vicious and damaging as physical abuse. We are making a start on tackling the problem and getting service provision in place, but there are enormous gaps. We are beginning to cope with the problems of women, but there are even wider gaps in the provision for children who are caught in the firing line between the adults in their lives. There is a woeful shortage of places in women's refuges, but there is an even worse shortfall in the number of children's workers attached to refuges. Those children need the help and support that they can get only from people who have the right professional skills. Another problematic area is the situation of boys, particularly older boys in families who seek refuge but find that older boys are not welcome or are not permitted to come in to the refuge. That puts an enormous strain on the son, the mother and the siblings. Considerable protection has been afforded by the existence of matrimonial interdicts and the power to obtain exclusion orders under the Matrimonial Homes (Family Protection) (Scotland) Act 1981, but the act now needs significant reform to deal with the inadequate protection that is given to cohabitees, with the limited number of remedies that are available when there is no provable record of violence, and in particular with the need to be able to make a decision about housing—especially when there are children in the household. The Law Commission is consulting on a number of those areas, and it is important that that is followed quickly by legislation. The work plan talks about the three Ps: prevention, protection and provision. I seem to have dealt with those backside foremost. I want to point out that, out of the 92 items listed for action, less than a quarter deal with prevention. Perhaps we should make progress on that front, in line with the other areas. Prevention is usually better than cure. Finally, I share the concerns about the time scale. The time to act is now.", "EditedTextHTML": "It has taken a long time to get domestic violence into the public consciousness and onto the political agenda. The Scottish Partnership on Domestic Abuse is to be commended for its work, and I welcome its work plan: it has much to commend it. The research behind it has exploded some of the prevailing myths about domestic violence: it is not the fault of the victim; it can occur in all social groups; and it is not caused by drunkenness, poverty, stress and so on.

The causes of domestic violence and discord are complex and many sided. Domestic disputes often begin with disputes about money, arguments over children, adulterous relationships or difficulties with in-laws. It is accepted that unemployment increases the pressure on families and the incidence of family breakdown, and there is frequently an alcohol or drugs element. None of those are excuses for violence against women. Domestic violence is about controlling behaviour, but it can become worse when other factors are present.

The work plan addresses the fact that there is a need for a strategic and co-ordinated approach to this issue. I am glad to see the emphasis on the importance of consistent service delivery across Scotland, and across barriers of race, disability and geography. The work plan is an excellent piece of work, but nothing is perfect and nothing is ever enough. The remit of the group was to address domestic violence perpetrated against women and children, but we must not forget that men are also victims of domestic violence. That is recognised in passing on page five of the work plan. We should not lose sight of that. In addition,

verbal abuse can be as vicious and damaging as physical abuse.

We are making a start on tackling the problem and getting service provision in place, but there are enormous gaps. We are beginning to cope with the problems of women, but there are even wider gaps in the provision for children who are caught in the firing line between the adults in their lives. There is a woeful shortage of places in women's refuges, but there is an even worse shortfall in the number of children's workers attached to refuges. Those children need the help and support that they can get only from people who have the right professional skills.

Another problematic area is the situation of boys, particularly older boys in families who seek refuge but find that older boys are not welcome or are not permitted to come in to the refuge. That puts an enormous strain on the son, the mother and the siblings.

Considerable protection has been afforded by the existence of matrimonial interdicts and the power to obtain exclusion orders under the Matrimonial Homes (Family Protection) (Scotland) Act 1981, but the act now needs significant reform to deal with the inadequate protection that is given to cohabitees, with the limited number of remedies that are available when there is no provable record of violence, and in particular with the need to be able to make a decision about housing—especially when there are children in the household. The Law Commission is consulting on a number of those areas, and it is important that that is followed quickly by legislation.

The work plan talks about the three Ps: prevention, protection and provision. I seem to have dealt with those backside foremost. I want to point out that, out of the 92 items listed for action, less than a quarter deal with prevention. Perhaps we should make progress on that front, in line with the other areas. Prevention is usually better than cure.

Finally, I share the concerns about the time scale. The time to act is now.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1791E121P209C709900", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Domestic Violence", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26948, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 62.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 62.0, "ID": 26948, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hughes, Janis", "ID": 1791, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Rutherglen" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Janis Hughes", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Janis Hughes (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 80.0, "ContributionID": 709900, "EditedText": "I agree with Lyndsay McIntosh when she says that certain groups of people do not think that we have anything new to say about domestic violence. We should never make excuses for using every opportunity to highlight some of the terrifying statistics relating to the issue. Domestic abuse is the most common form of violent crime against women in the UK. Partners or ex-partners murder half of the women who are killed in Scotland. Violence against women is the world's most pervasive form of human rights abuse. Ninety per cent of children whose mother is attacked are in the same or next room while the attack is taking place. All the statistics are horrifying in themselves, but if we consider them in a local context, they bring home the horror of domestic violence. In my constituency, assaults within the home are reported to the police at the rate of one per day. In the past six months, 182 women from Rutherglen and Cambuslang contacted the police after being assaulted or sexually attacked. Those figures are particularly worrying given that, last year, local police launched a major initiative against domestic abuse. When we consider the fact that statistics are based only on the cases that are reported, it is clear that the situation is very serious indeed. This is a matter of basic human rights. The European convention on human rights provides for the right not to be subject \"to torture or to inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.\" It also confirms\"the right to liberty and security of the person.\"Why are so many women being denied those rights? Women and children are never to blame for domestic abuse. The use of violence and verbal, mental and sexual abuse is a choice that some men make in order to exercise control over their partners and children. There is no doubt that we need to take a multi- agency approach. Key agencies must be brought together at a national level if we are to tackle the issue effectively. We need consistency throughout the country, while acknowledging the specific needs of women from rural areas, ethnic minorities and those with disabilities. The most important issue that we need to tackle is that of changing attitudes. Local agencies must be ready to deal with domestic violence when it occurs, but we must get to the root of the problem if we are ever to succeed in stamping it out. Initiatives such as zero tolerance focus on changing attitudes, but until the risk of abuse is eliminated, we still have to provide adequate services to give abused women and children the help they need. We have already mentioned the research by the Zero Tolerance Trust, which considers boys' attitudes to domestic violence. It is horrifying to hear what boys say. As the mother of a 13-year-old boy, I firmly believe that education begins in the home and that, as parents, we have a social responsibility to change attitudes and to ensure that the next generation does not perpetuate the domestic abuse that goes on today. The Scottish Partnership on Domestic Abuse has recognised the need for a multi-agency approach and is working towards that. Its work involves costing its recommendations. Even at an early stage, it was clear that extra money would have to be found. I welcome Jackie Baillie's comments on that. The difficulty of money is also faced by the other major players in the fight against domestic abuse—the police, the health service and the justice system—all of which are incurring extra expenditure on their work in the area. The partnership must consider better co-ordination and the targeting of resources at those groups. We can make a difference to the lives of women and children, who barely exist, living under the constant threat of domestic violence. It is estimated that 100,000 children and young people in Scotland are living with domestic abuse. As a nation, we cannot allow that to continue.", "EditedTextHTML": "I agree with Lyndsay McIntosh when she says that certain groups of people do not think that we have anything new to say about domestic violence. We should never make excuses for using every opportunity to highlight some of the terrifying statistics relating to the issue.

Domestic abuse is the most common form of violent crime against women in the UK. Partners or ex-partners murder half of the women who are killed in Scotland. Violence against women is the world's most pervasive form of human rights abuse. Ninety per cent of children whose mother is attacked are in the same or next room while the attack is taking place. All the statistics are horrifying in themselves, but if we consider them in a local context, they bring home the horror of domestic violence.

In my constituency, assaults within the home are reported to the police at the rate of one per day. In the past six months, 182 women from Rutherglen and Cambuslang contacted the police after being assaulted or sexually attacked. Those figures are particularly worrying given that, last year, local police launched a major initiative against domestic abuse. When we consider the fact that statistics are based only on the cases that are reported, it is clear that the situation is very serious indeed.

This is a matter of basic human rights. The European convention on human rights provides for the right not to be subject

\"to torture or to inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.\"

It also confirms

\"the right to liberty and security of the person.\"

Why are so many women being denied those rights? Women and children are never to blame for domestic abuse. The use of violence and verbal, mental and sexual abuse is a choice that some men make in order to exercise control over their partners and children.

There is no doubt that we need to take a multi- agency approach. Key agencies must be brought together at a national level if we are to tackle the issue effectively. We need consistency throughout the country, while acknowledging the specific needs of women from rural areas, ethnic minorities and those with disabilities.

The most important issue that we need to tackle is that of changing attitudes. Local agencies must be ready to deal with domestic violence when it occurs, but we must get to the root of the problem if we are ever to succeed in stamping it out. Initiatives such as zero tolerance focus on changing attitudes, but until the risk of abuse is eliminated, we still have to provide adequate services to give abused women and children the help they need.

We have already mentioned the research by the Zero Tolerance Trust, which considers boys' attitudes to domestic violence. It is horrifying to hear what boys say. As the mother of a 13-year-old boy, I firmly believe that education begins in the home and that, as parents, we have a social responsibility to change attitudes and to ensure that the next generation does not perpetuate the domestic abuse that goes on today.

The Scottish Partnership on Domestic Abuse has recognised the need for a multi-agency approach and is working towards that. Its work involves costing its recommendations. Even at an early stage, it was clear that extra money would have to be found. I welcome Jackie Baillie's comments on that. The difficulty of money is also faced by the other major players in the fight against domestic abuse—the police, the health service and the justice system—all of which are incurring extra expenditure on their work in the area. The partnership must consider better co-ordination and the targeting of resources at those groups.

We can make a difference to the lives of women and children, who barely exist, living under the constant threat of domestic violence. It is estimated that 100,000 children and young people in Scotland are living with domestic abuse. As a nation, we cannot allow that to continue.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C709903", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Domestic Violence", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26948, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 62.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 62.0, "ID": 26948, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr George Reid (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 89.0, "ContributionID": 709903, "EditedText": "I will concentrate on what might be termed the last taboo—the abuse of women who have disabilities. From my work with human rights organisations, I am sure that we have here what the \"Journal of Disability Policy Studies\" in February of last year called \"a problem of epidemic proportions\".The 1995 Strathclyde Zero Tolerance Project, quoting detailed research from Australia, Canada and North America, decided that, in Scotland, \"we're no different.\" The global research—I can provide the minister with all the references—concluded that more than half of disabled women claim to have suffered some form of physical abuse, compared with a third of women without disabilities. Almost half of disabled women report some form of sexual abuse during childhood and the abuse normally takes place in the home or in a so-called safe institution. There are no detailed Scots statistics, but I will inform members of cases made known to me. One woman, who is partially paralysed, is regularly raped by her partner. He says that she likes it. When she protests, he says that someone like her is lucky to have a sex life at all and he is doing her a favour. Another woman, who is in a wheelchair, is regularly battered. She got herself out of the house, but when she got to the refuge she found that it had no ramp and she could not even reach the doorbell.Women with disabilities are uniquely vulnerable. They often rely on the abuser for personal assistance and financial support. They can have their assistive devices withdrawn by the abuser who may say, \"You will not go to the toilet,\" \"You will not have a bath,\" or, \"I will take your stick away.\" They fear that, if they separate, their children will be removed. Often, their main communication with the outside is the abuser. If all violence is about power and domination, the fact that a woman is disabled seems to heighten the need for dominance in some men. Women with learning disabilities are especially at risk. As girls, they may be less able to defend themselves physically or to articulate the fact of abuse. They may be unable to differentiate between appropriate physical contact and sexual or violent action. I remind members of the chilling warning given by the Dorset police in 1993 during its investigations into the murder of Jo Ramsden, a woman with Down's syndrome who was raped and murdered. Dorset police stated: \"Our officers have been surprised and sickened by the number of men who are prepared to prey on mentally disturbed females. We have identified people who have committed very serious offences against these vulnerable people\". What is the Scots situation? Frankly, it is not good. Women's Aid currently has only seven barrier-free spaces out of a total of 360. That leaves large tracts of Scotland where people who are in a wheelchair and abused or blind and abused are on their own. Minister, there are probably many more refuges for maltreated dogs and cats in Scotland than for abused women with a disability. There is one QWERTY phone in East Dunbartonshire, but otherwise no special provision for the blind or deaf. The national office of Women's Aid would like to invest in a text telephone and issue literature in large print and tapes, but so far has been unable to do so. There seems to be little provision for an abused woman who does not have a disability herself, but has a disabled child. Today's announcement of £8 million of extra funding is welcome. I hope that the Minister for Communities, in winding up, will reassure the Parliament that some of the money will be used to achieve three objectives. First, to ensure that no disabled woman in Scotland remains trapped in a cycle of violence because refuge services are not available to her. Secondly, to pledge that a proper needs assessment into this abuse—as has happened in North America and Australia—will be commenced in Scotland. Thirdly, to get the issue out into the open. Because it is not discussed in the public domain, victims often think that the abuse is unique to them, so they stay silent and nurse their shame. It is time, minister, to tackle the taboo.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will concentrate on what might be termed the last taboo—the abuse of women who have disabilities.

From my work with human rights organisations, I am sure that we have here what the \"Journal of Disability Policy Studies\" in February of last year called

\"a problem of epidemic proportions\".

The 1995 Strathclyde Zero Tolerance Project, quoting detailed research from Australia, Canada and North America, decided that, in Scotland, \"we're no different.\"

The global research—I can provide the minister with all the references—concluded that more than half of disabled women claim to have suffered some form of physical abuse, compared with a third of women without disabilities. Almost half of disabled women report some form of sexual abuse during childhood and the abuse normally takes place in the home or in a so-called safe institution.

There are no detailed Scots statistics, but I will inform members of cases made known to me. One woman, who is partially paralysed, is regularly raped by her partner. He says that she likes it. When she protests, he says that someone like her is lucky to have a sex life at all and he is doing her a favour. Another woman, who is in a wheelchair, is regularly battered. She got herself out of the house, but when she got to the refuge she found that it had no ramp and she could not even reach

the doorbell.

Women with disabilities are uniquely vulnerable. They often rely on the abuser for personal assistance and financial support. They can have their assistive devices withdrawn by the abuser who may say, \"You will not go to the toilet,\" \"You will not have a bath,\" or, \"I will take your stick away.\" They fear that, if they separate, their children will be removed. Often, their main communication with the outside is the abuser.

If all violence is about power and domination, the fact that a woman is disabled seems to heighten the need for dominance in some men. Women with learning disabilities are especially at risk. As girls, they may be less able to defend themselves physically or to articulate the fact of abuse. They may be unable to differentiate between appropriate physical contact and sexual or violent action.

I remind members of the chilling warning given by the Dorset police in 1993 during its investigations into the murder of Jo Ramsden, a woman with Down's syndrome who was raped and murdered. Dorset police stated:

\"Our officers have been surprised and sickened by the number of men who are prepared to prey on mentally disturbed females. We have identified people who have committed very serious offences against these vulnerable people\".

What is the Scots situation? Frankly, it is not good. Women's Aid currently has only seven barrier-free spaces out of a total of 360. That leaves large tracts of Scotland where people who are in a wheelchair and abused or blind and abused are on their own. Minister, there are probably many more refuges for maltreated dogs and cats in Scotland than for abused women with a disability.

There is one QWERTY phone in East Dunbartonshire, but otherwise no special provision for the blind or deaf. The national office of Women's Aid would like to invest in a text telephone and issue literature in large print and tapes, but so far has been unable to do so. There seems to be little provision for an abused woman who does not have a disability herself, but has a disabled child.

Today's announcement of £8 million of extra funding is welcome. I hope that the Minister for Communities, in winding up, will reassure the Parliament that some of the money will be used to achieve three objectives. First, to ensure that no disabled woman in Scotland remains trapped in a cycle of violence because refuge services are not available to her. Secondly, to pledge that a proper needs assessment into this abuse—as has happened in North America and Australia—will be commenced in Scotland. Thirdly, to get the issue out into the open. Because it is not discussed in the public domain, victims often think that the abuse is unique to them, so they stay silent and nurse their shame.

It is time, minister, to tackle the taboo.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2234E7P20C709905", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Domestic Violence", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26948, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 62.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 62.0, "ID": 26948, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Aitken, Bill", "ID": 2234, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bill Aitken", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bill Aitken (Glasgow) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 95.0, "ContributionID": 709905, "EditedText": "I think that most of us wish that we were not having this debate or, more accurately, that we did not need to have this debate. Clearly, however, we need to have this debate: these poignant issues need to be addressed. When one hears stories such as those that George Reid told, one despairs at the fact that such things can go on in what we claim to be a civilised society. Much of what has been proposed today is welcome. What has been lacking from our efforts to deal with this problem is an appropriate number of refuge places. Like Lyndsay McIntosh, I have dealt in a district court with many cases of assault and breach of the peace in the home. In those cases, I was frequently struck by the fact that the women stuck with the abusers. Sometimes they stuck with them because the assault had been a one-off but, in many cases, the abuse had gone on for years and the woman would have left if she had been able to find a safer environment. One of the most serious things about this issue, as Margaret Curran pointed out, is the fact that an assault in the home is much more serious than an assault elsewhere. Of course it is deplorable that people should be assaulted in the street, in a pub or in their place of work—it is never pleasant—but people are entitled to expect that their home is a place of safety. If a home is not a place of safety, that not only reflects badly on society but shows that we have failed to provide places of safety for people. To that extent, I welcome the Scottish Homes initiative, which will go some way towards preventing some of the problems that I have seen in the past. Roseanna Cunningham, as convener of the Justice and Home Affairs Committee, should be aware that there are things that her committee could do. The existing legislation—particularly the Matrimonial Homes (Family Protection) (Scotland) Act 1981 and the Protection from Harassment Act 1997—is good up to a point, but it could be taken a bit further. There needs to be a realisation that it should recognise that many people who are abused are partners or common-law wives of the abuser. The existing terms do not recognise such people. There must be a recognition that abusive behaviour is unacceptable. The problem used to be regarded as the result of dysfunctional people with dysfunctional problems. That is not the case, but even if it were, abusive behaviour would still be unacceptable. Lyndsay McIntosh, with understandable emotion, dealt with the effects that abuse can have on children, which is the saddest aspect of all. The Social Work (Scotland) Act 1968 does not allow grounds for referral in many cases where children are at emotional risk in an environment where violence is frequently visited on their mother. We welcome the progress that has been made today. We recognise that this Parliament cannot implement some of the necessary changes until such time as society recognises that abusive behaviour is utterly unacceptable.", "EditedTextHTML": "I think that most of us wish that we were not having this debate or, more accurately, that we did not need to have this debate. Clearly, however, we need to have this debate: these poignant issues need to be addressed. When one hears stories such as those that George Reid told, one despairs at the fact that such things can go on in what we claim to be a civilised society.

Much of what has been proposed today is welcome. What has been lacking from our efforts to deal with this problem is an appropriate number of refuge places. Like Lyndsay McIntosh, I have dealt in a district court with many cases of assault and breach of the peace in the home. In those cases, I was frequently struck by the fact that the women stuck with the abusers. Sometimes they stuck with them because the assault had been a one-off but, in many cases, the abuse had gone on for years and the woman would have left if she had been able to find a safer environment.

One of the most serious things about this issue, as Margaret Curran pointed out, is the fact that an assault in the home is much more serious than an assault elsewhere. Of course it is deplorable that people should be assaulted in the street, in a pub or in their place of work—it is never pleasant—but people are entitled to expect that their home is a place of safety. If a home is not a place of safety, that not only reflects badly on society but shows that we have failed to provide places of safety for people. To that extent, I welcome the Scottish Homes initiative, which will go some way towards preventing some of the problems that I have seen in the past.

Roseanna Cunningham, as convener of the Justice and Home Affairs Committee, should be aware that there are things that her committee could do. The existing legislation—particularly the Matrimonial Homes (Family Protection) (Scotland) Act 1981 and the Protection from Harassment Act 1997—is good up to a point, but it could be taken a bit further. There needs to be a realisation that it should recognise that many people who are abused are partners or common-law wives of the abuser. The existing terms do not recognise such people.

There must be a recognition that abusive behaviour is unacceptable. The problem used to be regarded as the result of dysfunctional people with dysfunctional problems. That is not the case, but even if it were, abusive behaviour would still be unacceptable.

Lyndsay McIntosh, with understandable emotion, dealt with the effects that abuse can have on children, which is the saddest aspect of all. The Social Work (Scotland) Act 1968 does not allow grounds for referral in many cases where children are at emotional risk in an environment where violence is frequently visited on their mother.

We welcome the progress that has been made today. We recognise that this Parliament cannot implement some of the necessary changes until such time as society recognises that abusive behaviour is utterly unacceptable.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709911", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Domestic Violence", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26948, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 62.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 62.0, "ID": 26948, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 112.0, "ContributionID": 709911, "EditedText": "I must apologise to no fewer than 12 members who wished to speak in the debate but have not been called. I call Phil Gallie to wind up for the Conservatives.", "EditedTextHTML": "I must apologise to no fewer than 12 members who wished to speak in the debate but have not been called. I call Phil Gallie to wind up for the Conservatives.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1762E216P508C709915", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Domestic Violence", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26948, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 62.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 62.0, "ID": 26948, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Elder, Dorothy-Grace", "ID": 1762, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 121.0, "ContributionID": 709915, "EditedText": "Although we do not want to be caught in a rather sticky blancmange of endless congratulations, we should welcome this report. However, we should be mindful that only £3 million is pledged directly and that we are dealing with 155,000 suffering human beings a year, including 100,000 children.", "EditedTextHTML": "Although we do not want to be caught in a rather sticky blancmange of endless congratulations, we should welcome this report. However, we should be mindful that only £3 million is pledged directly and that we are dealing with 155,000 suffering human beings a year, including 100,000 children.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1762E216P508C709917", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Domestic Violence", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26948, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 62.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 62.0, "ID": 26948, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Elder, Dorothy-Grace", "ID": 1762, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 125.0, "ContributionID": 709917, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709928", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26949, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 143.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 143.0, "ID": 26949, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 149.0, "ContributionID": 709928, "EditedText": "Motion, as amended, agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion, as amended, agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C709922", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Domestic Violence", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26948, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 62.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 62.0, "ID": 26948, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Communities (Ms Wendy Alexander): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 137.0, "ContributionID": 709922, "EditedText": "I will use my summation to reflect on some of the larger themes that members, including Fiona Hyslop, have raised. What we are doing today is historic. In Scotland's new Parliament, almost 40 per cent of our number are women. We are a Parliament that looks like Scotland and is now acting in Scotland's interests. This is a new politics for a new Scotland—a politics of action rather than of protest and a politics of liberation rather than of brutality. I want to dedicate the action that we take today to the generations of Scottish women who have gone before us. I dedicate our action to Scotland's first recorded rape victim, St Thenew, one of Scotland's few Scottish-born pre-reformation female saints. She was a battered woman and the unmarried mother of St Mungo, the patron saint of Glasgow. I dedicate our action today to the countless Scottish women who perished in the witch hunts of the 16th century—with more than 4,000 Scottish women killed, it was a war against women that generated no war memorials. In this place, where we often recall the post-war covenant with a million signatures calling for a Scottish Parliament, let us also recall the 2 million signatures collected in Scotland in less than a decade between 1867 and 1876 calling for votes for women. It was a fight for education, for medical training and for suffrage, in that order. Let us also recall medical pioneers like Elsie Inglis who took up the cause of violence against Scottish women more than a century ago. In her work she saw the effect of laws that meant that in Scotland no married woman could have an operation without her husband's consent. As Elsie said, Scottish women were left to a lingering suffering, from which only death could release them. Elsie would have been proud of what we are doing today, as would Keir Hardie and the men and women whose founding aim—above all others—in creating the Scottish Labour party in 1888 was the achievement of universal suffrage. Sisters and brothers, we live with our history; it shapes us and we follow in our mothers' footsteps, living up to their hopes and building a better Scotland. Today, let us not only be shamed by the domestic violence that has scarred our past and still too often scars our present, but celebrate what this Parliament's creation has given us the opportunity to do. In every previous generation, where women failed they gave their daughters the determination to succeed. We fulfil those hopes today as we launch the first national funding package to tackle domestic violence in Scotland. We are matching our words to our actions, with support for hundreds more refuge places. However, because bed spaces are not enough, there is extra support for move-on accommodation, to help women who have the courage to leave to build a new life for themselves and their children. However, as we have heard echoing around the chamber today, accommodation is the tip of the iceberg. We need to offer the full range of professional and self-help services. This morning, Jackie Baillie and I visited Women's Aid in Morrison Street. It is always humbling to see what Lesley Irving and her team do. I spoke to a support worker who works with black women in Scotland. She talked about the experience of black women who walk away from a marriage— when they do, they frequently walk away from a whole life. Too often, the victim's family has a stake in the marriage, which generates enormous pressure to stay. Often, there are no visible means of support; there are language difficulties born of isolation in the home, there is fear of immigration consequences and there is a need to have access to specialist food shops and religious observance. That is a complex web of problems that refuge places alone cannot solve. Even if we have more refuge places, more move-on accommodation and more support workers, none of that will be enough. As speaker after speaker made clear, if we simply treat the symptoms, we betray the generations that went before. Their vision, like ours, is for a different Scotland—a Scotland that abhors not just the symptoms of domestic violence, but its causes. In tackling the power relationships that lie at the heart of much domestic violence in Scotland today, we face challenges that earlier generations did not face. We live in a media age. The ways of our neighbours, villages and communities no longer shape what is acceptable in society. Our planned support package for every secondary school in Scotland will not be enough. Today, our images, values and behaviours are fundamentally shaped by the media. If, in this generation, we are to change the mindset of those who see nothing wrong in resorting to violence, abuse, and psychological tactics to control their partners, we need the whole-hearted support of the media in achieving universal condemnation of all forms of domestic abuse. I appeal to the Scottish media to work with us to drive home the message that there is no excuse for domestic abuse. I ask them to listen to the voices in the Parliament today. This is the real debate of the day—the debate that has the potential to touch the lives of thousands of vulnerable Scottish women—not what happened in some committee room this morning. I say to the media that the Parliament, local government, Scottish Homes and the voluntary sector have signed up to change. Will they play their part? I appeal to the media not to let us down. Today's debate has been full of eloquence and passion—I cannot do that justice. We were all moved by what we heard today from Lyndsay McIntosh, George Reid, Margaret Curran, Johann Lamont and many others. I cannot pick up all the points that were raised, but I want to reaffirm one or two things. The £8 million is being delivered in a way that will give us co-operation on the ground. That is why the matching money is part of the package— to get the local commitment and the buy-in. The Convention of Scottish Local Authorities is happy to offer the guarantees that people are looking for. I invite George Reid to come to the Scottish Partnership on Domestic Abuse and to outline in depth the very real issues on disability that he raised today. The new £8 million starts to address the needs that he has identified. I want to reassure Roseanna Cunningham that the money is available to all voluntary organisations, not just to a few operating in this field. She made a point about time scales. We want early action and I can assure the chamber that, by Christmas, the partnership will move forward in identifying immediate priorities and service changes, immediate service standards and the need for new support and training. On the legislative issues that Christine Grahame and others raised, I assure Parliament that by the end of the year we will announce our intentions for the reform of Scottish family law and the associated policy issues.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will use my summation to reflect on some of the larger themes that members, including Fiona Hyslop, have raised. What we are doing today is historic. In Scotland's new Parliament, almost 40 per cent of our number are women. We are a Parliament that looks like Scotland and is now acting in Scotland's interests. This is a new politics for a new Scotland—a politics of action rather than of protest and a politics of liberation rather than of brutality.

I want to dedicate the action that we take today to the generations of Scottish women who have gone before us. I dedicate our action to Scotland's first recorded rape victim, St Thenew, one of Scotland's few Scottish-born pre-reformation female saints. She was a battered woman and the unmarried mother of St Mungo, the patron saint of Glasgow. I dedicate our action today to the countless Scottish women who perished in the witch hunts of the 16th century—with more than 4,000 Scottish women killed, it was a war against women that generated no war memorials.

In this place, where we often recall the post-war covenant with a million signatures calling for a Scottish Parliament, let us also recall the 2 million signatures collected in Scotland in less than a decade between 1867 and 1876 calling for votes for women. It was a fight for education, for medical training and for suffrage, in that order.

Let us also recall medical pioneers like Elsie Inglis who took up the cause of violence against Scottish women more than a century ago. In her work she saw the effect of laws that meant that in Scotland no married woman could have an operation without her husband's consent. As Elsie said, Scottish women were left to a lingering suffering, from which only death could release them. Elsie would have been proud of what we are doing today, as would Keir Hardie and the men and women whose founding aim—above all others—in creating the Scottish Labour party in 1888 was the achievement of universal suffrage.

Sisters and brothers, we live with our history; it shapes us and we follow in our mothers' footsteps, living up to their hopes and building a better Scotland. Today, let us not only be shamed by the domestic violence that has scarred our past and still too often scars our present, but celebrate what this Parliament's creation has given us the opportunity to do. In every previous generation, where women failed they gave their daughters the determination to succeed.

We fulfil those hopes today as we launch the first national funding package to tackle domestic violence in Scotland. We are matching our words to our actions, with support for hundreds more refuge places. However, because bed spaces are not enough, there is extra support for move-on accommodation, to help women who have the courage to leave to build a new life for themselves and their children.

However, as we have heard echoing around the chamber today, accommodation is the tip of the iceberg. We need to offer the full range of professional and self-help services. This morning, Jackie Baillie and I visited Women's Aid in Morrison Street. It is always humbling to see what Lesley Irving and her team do. I spoke to a support worker who works with black women in Scotland. She talked about the experience of black women who walk away from a marriage— when they do, they frequently walk away from a whole life. Too often, the victim's family has a stake in the marriage, which generates enormous pressure to stay. Often, there are no visible means

of support; there are language difficulties born of isolation in the home, there is fear of immigration consequences and there is a need to have access to specialist food shops and religious observance. That is a complex web of problems that refuge places alone cannot solve.

Even if we have more refuge places, more move-on accommodation and more support workers, none of that will be enough. As speaker after speaker made clear, if we simply treat the symptoms, we betray the generations that went before. Their vision, like ours, is for a different Scotland—a Scotland that abhors not just the symptoms of domestic violence, but its causes. In tackling the power relationships that lie at the heart of much domestic violence in Scotland today, we face challenges that earlier generations did not face.

We live in a media age. The ways of our neighbours, villages and communities no longer shape what is acceptable in society. Our planned support package for every secondary school in Scotland will not be enough. Today, our images, values and behaviours are fundamentally shaped by the media.

If, in this generation, we are to change the mindset of those who see nothing wrong in resorting to violence, abuse, and psychological tactics to control their partners, we need the whole-hearted support of the media in achieving universal condemnation of all forms of domestic abuse. I appeal to the Scottish media to work with us to drive home the message that there is no excuse for domestic abuse. I ask them to listen to the voices in the Parliament today. This is the real debate of the day—the debate that has the potential to touch the lives of thousands of vulnerable Scottish women—not what happened in some committee room this morning. I say to the media that the Parliament, local government, Scottish Homes and the voluntary sector have signed up to change. Will they play their part? I appeal to the media not to let us down.

Today's debate has been full of eloquence and passion—I cannot do that justice. We were all moved by what we heard today from Lyndsay McIntosh, George Reid, Margaret Curran, Johann Lamont and many others. I cannot pick up all the points that were raised, but I want to reaffirm one or two things.

The £8 million is being delivered in a way that will give us co-operation on the ground. That is why the matching money is part of the package— to get the local commitment and the buy-in. The Convention of Scottish Local Authorities is happy to offer the guarantees that people are looking for.

I invite George Reid to come to the Scottish Partnership on Domestic Abuse and to outline in depth the very real issues on disability that he raised today. The new £8 million starts to address the needs that he has identified.

I want to reassure Roseanna Cunningham that the money is available to all voluntary organisations, not just to a few operating in this field. She made a point about time scales. We want early action and I can assure the chamber that, by Christmas, the partnership will move forward in identifying immediate priorities and service changes, immediate service standards and the need for new support and training.

On the legislative issues that Christine Grahame and others raised, I assure Parliament that by the end of the year we will announce our intentions for the reform of Scottish family law and the associated policy issues.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C709924", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Domestic Violence", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26948, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 62.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 62.0, "ID": 26948, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 141.0, "ContributionID": 709924, "EditedText": "I am moving towards a conclusion. We are determined to drive the agenda forward, but it is right and proper that this chamber should hold Jackie Baillie, the partnership and me to account. I want to conclude by reflecting on where we have reached. Today's debate demonstrates that our Parliament has the strength of commitment to work together to achieve our ambitions for a level of service provision that is consistent with the needs of all women and children who are suffering at the brutal hands of the perpetrators of domestic abuse. I finish with one observation. Today was another first—it was the first day that we had time for reflection in this place. As I listened, the minister read from a psalm: \"Let us build a house where prophets speakAnd . . .Where all God's children dare to speak\".We went on to pray:\"let a hunger and thirst for justice be the passion of this place . . . a place of listening and of healing and of hope.\" Today we have together lived up to that hope. We stand in solidarity with women and men of good will across Scotland. This is a proud day for this Parliament. I commend to members the motion and the amendment.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am moving towards a conclusion.

We are determined to drive the agenda forward, but it is right and proper that this chamber should hold Jackie Baillie, the partnership and me to account.

I want to conclude by reflecting on where we have reached. Today's debate demonstrates that our Parliament has the strength of commitment to work together to achieve our ambitions for a level of service provision that is consistent with the needs of all women and children who are suffering at the brutal hands of the perpetrators of domestic abuse.

I finish with one observation. Today was another first—it was the first day that we had time for reflection in this place. As I listened, the minister read from a psalm:

\"Let us build a house where prophets speak

And . . .

Where all God's children dare to speak\".

We went on to pray:

\"let a hunger and thirst for justice be the passion of this place . . . a place of listening and of healing and of hope.\"

Today we have together lived up to that hope. We stand in solidarity with women and men of good will across Scotland. This is a proud day for this Parliament. I commend to members the motion and the amendment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709931", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Telecommunications", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26950, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 153.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 153.0, "ID": 26950, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 154.0, "ContributionID": 709931, "EditedText": "We now move to members' business. I ask those who are leaving the chamber to do so quietly, to allow the start of the debate on S1M-187, in the name of Mr Nick Johnston, on telecommunications. The debate will be concluded after 30 minutes. I will ask Mr Johnston to wait while members leave. Interruption. I ask members who are leaving to do so quietly, in fairness to the member whose debate this is.", "EditedTextHTML": "We now move to members' business. I ask those who are leaving the chamber to do so quietly, to allow the start of the debate on S1M-187, in the name of Mr Nick Johnston, on telecommunications. The debate will be concluded after 30 minutes. I will ask Mr Johnston to wait while members leave. [Interruption.] I ask members who are leaving to do so quietly, in fairness to the member whose debate this is.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709932", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Telecommunications", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26950, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 153.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 153.0, "ID": 26950, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 156.0, "ContributionID": 709932, "EditedText": "Motion debated,", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion debated,

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2152E53P75C709934", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Telecommunications", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26950, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 153.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 153.0, "ID": 26950, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnston, Nick", "ID": 2152, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nick Johnston", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Nick Johnston (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 159.0, "ContributionID": 709934, "EditedText": "Today sees another first in the Parliament, but not one as grand as the two that we heard about before. I am pleased to have been asked to take part in debating my second members' business motion, and I understand that I am the first member to have been granted two members' business debates. I chose this subject for debate against the background of a rapid rise in the demand for mobile phones, and as one of the 20 million mobile users in the United Kingdom today—a number that will rise to 30 million by 2001. The UK telecommunications industry employs more than 100,000 people and accounts for £5 billion of UK gross domestic product. Orange alone will invest around £800 million in the next year. I do not want to give the impression of being anti the telecommunications industry. I fully support the extension of the network with the benefits that it will bring in terms of competition and accessibility. There is considerable unease about the current planning process. There is considerable public unease about the perception of health risks from telecommunications masts and mobile phones. There has been a proliferation of masts in Scotland and the response of the Executive to the considerable public anger at masts appearing in their communities, often without neighbour notification, must be investigated. There are four issues: planning, health, community and competence. Taking the fourth first, we find another of the many anomalies thrown up by the inadequate drafting of the Scotland Act 1998. Telecommunications per se is a reserved matter under schedule 5 to the act and matters relating to health and safety are also reserved. We are therefore unable to legislate on the health issues in this Parliament. What we can do, however, is ask the Executive to read carefully the third report of the House of Commons Select Committee on Science and Technology regarding the health risks associated with the effects of radiation from mobile phones. I draw the Executive's attention particularly to the evidence of Mr Phil Willis MP, who said that more independent research is required before mobile phones and their transmitting base stations are deemed not to be a risk to public health and that, until independently validated evidence is available, the precautionary principle should be adopted. The public, of course, have a right to choose whether to use a mobile. However, people who live in close proximity to base stations, or who have them in their children's playgrounds or beamed at their schools, have no such right and no such choice. I had better declare an interest, because not more than 100 m from my house there is a 25.4 m mast. The noise that members can hear from the public gallery comes from my children who, thus far, have not been damaged by the mast, but I am concerned about the health issues. We look to Governments of every hue to protect the health of their citizens. We should also look to the Government to provide evidence that the risk to health from base stations and from mobile phones is so minimal or non-existent that it does not pose a threat. At this time, the Government can do neither, partly because there is insufficient peer group-validated research. I welcome the setting up by the UK Government of the independent expert group on mobile phones under the chairmanship of Sir William Stewart. However, I am concerned by the fact that the secretariat seems to be provided by the National Radiological Protection Board, a body that has not inspired widespread public confidence so far. I shall leave health and move back to the other factors that influence the debate, particularly the planning issues. The situation seems to be very confused, particularly when it comes to planning guidelines. I understand that, under the Telecommunications Act 1984, operators have an obligation to provide services to 90 per cent of the population within prescribed time limits. The regulations at present state that, broadly speaking, operators benefit from permitted development rights that allow them to erect free-standing masts and towers up to 15 m without the need to seek planning consent. Class 67 of the Town and Country Planning (General Permitted Development) (Scotland) Order 1992 deals with that. Perhaps I can illustrate some of the difficulties with an example from my constituency, one that Mr Crawford knows only too well. Class 67 should not apply in conservation or national scenic areas. I do not want to bore members with tedious details but, in the case of the mast in Kinross, those regulations seem to have been circumvented by the excuse that the mast was a replacement for an existing mast operated by the police, so there was no need for permission. After much to-ing and fro-ing between the council and one of my constituents, an appeal to the ombudsman produced a sympathetic reply, but it said that, in essence, the issue was a matter for the courts as the case would require a judicial judgment on the interpretation of the guidelines by the relevant planning authority. My constituent is now faced with the prospect of having to take legal action to prove the council to be at fault, and the cost to him has been conservatively estimated at 6,000 quid. Surely that is not an acceptable situation. It leaves our community with a hideous monstrosity in the midst of the picturesque capital burgh of Kinross-shire, in the middle of a conservation area, replacing a police mast that was slim and discreet with a huge steel latticework festooned with dishes and aerials. I welcome the fact that the Transport and the Environment Committee is to hold an inquiry into telecommunications. I hope that its recommendations put pressure on the Executive to ensure that such ludicrous situations are not allowed to occur in the future. We need the Executive to give clear and unequivocal guidance to local authorities. I call on it to explain to us how it intends to remedy the situation. How does it intend to protect our children? How does it intend to preserve the heritage of our country? How does it intend to encourage operators to effect the coverage imposed on them under the Telecommunications Act 1984 while minimising environmental damage? In short, how will it prevent another 25.4 m mast appearing in the middle of a town of historic beauty? We must strike a balance between public good, public amenity, visual beauty and the benefits to communities. I commend my motion to the chamber.", "EditedTextHTML": "Today sees another first in the Parliament, but not one as grand as the two that we heard about before. I am pleased to have been asked to take part in debating my second members' business motion, and I understand that I am the first member to have been granted two members' business debates.

I chose this subject for debate against the background of a rapid rise in the demand for mobile phones, and as one of the 20 million mobile users in the United Kingdom today—a number that will rise to 30 million by 2001. The UK telecommunications industry employs more than 100,000 people and accounts for £5 billion of UK gross domestic product. Orange alone will invest around £800 million in the next year.

I do not want to give the impression of being anti the telecommunications industry. I fully support the extension of the network with the benefits that it will bring in terms of competition and accessibility. There is considerable unease about the current planning process. There is considerable public unease about the perception of health risks from telecommunications masts and mobile phones. There has been a proliferation of masts in Scotland and the response of the Executive to the considerable public anger at masts appearing in their communities, often without neighbour notification, must be investigated.

There are four issues: planning, health, community and competence. Taking the fourth first, we find another of the many anomalies thrown up by the inadequate drafting of the Scotland Act 1998. Telecommunications per se is a reserved matter under schedule 5 to the act and matters relating to health and safety are also reserved. We are therefore unable to legislate on

the health issues in this Parliament. What we can do, however, is ask the Executive to read carefully the third report of the House of Commons Select Committee on Science and Technology regarding the health risks associated with the effects of radiation from mobile phones.

I draw the Executive's attention particularly to the evidence of Mr Phil Willis MP, who said that more independent research is required before mobile phones and their transmitting base stations are deemed not to be a risk to public health and that, until independently validated evidence is available, the precautionary principle should be adopted.

The public, of course, have a right to choose whether to use a mobile. However, people who live in close proximity to base stations, or who have them in their children's playgrounds or beamed at their schools, have no such right and no such choice. I had better declare an interest, because not more than 100 m from my house there is a 25.4 m mast. The noise that members can hear from the public gallery comes from my children who, thus far, have not been damaged by the mast, but I am concerned about the health issues.

We look to Governments of every hue to protect the health of their citizens. We should also look to the Government to provide evidence that the risk to health from base stations and from mobile phones is so minimal or non-existent that it does not pose a threat. At this time, the Government can do neither, partly because there is insufficient peer group-validated research.

I welcome the setting up by the UK Government of the independent expert group on mobile phones under the chairmanship of Sir William Stewart. However, I am concerned by the fact that the secretariat seems to be provided by the National Radiological Protection Board, a body that has not inspired widespread public confidence so far.

I shall leave health and move back to the other factors that influence the debate, particularly the planning issues. The situation seems to be very confused, particularly when it comes to planning guidelines. I understand that, under the Telecommunications Act 1984, operators have an obligation to provide services to 90 per cent of the population within prescribed time limits. The regulations at present state that, broadly speaking, operators benefit from permitted development rights that allow them to erect free-standing masts and towers up to 15 m without the need to seek planning consent. Class 67 of the Town and Country Planning (General Permitted Development) (Scotland) Order 1992 deals with that.

Perhaps I can illustrate some of the difficulties with an example from my constituency, one that Mr Crawford knows only too well. Class 67 should not apply in conservation or national scenic areas. I do not want to bore members with tedious details but, in the case of the mast in Kinross, those regulations seem to have been circumvented by the excuse that the mast was a replacement for an existing mast operated by the police, so there was no need for permission.

After much to-ing and fro-ing between the council and one of my constituents, an appeal to the ombudsman produced a sympathetic reply, but it said that, in essence, the issue was a matter for the courts as the case would require a judicial judgment on the interpretation of the guidelines by the relevant planning authority. My constituent is now faced with the prospect of having to take legal action to prove the council to be at fault, and the cost to him has been conservatively estimated at 6,000 quid.

Surely that is not an acceptable situation. It leaves our community with a hideous monstrosity in the midst of the picturesque capital burgh of Kinross-shire, in the middle of a conservation area, replacing a police mast that was slim and discreet with a huge steel latticework festooned with dishes and aerials. I welcome the fact that the Transport and the Environment Committee is to hold an inquiry into telecommunications. I hope that its recommendations put pressure on the Executive to ensure that such ludicrous situations are not allowed to occur in the future.

We need the Executive to give clear and unequivocal guidance to local authorities. I call on it to explain to us how it intends to remedy the situation. How does it intend to protect our children? How does it intend to preserve the heritage of our country? How does it intend to encourage operators to effect the coverage imposed on them under the Telecommunications Act 1984 while minimising environmental damage? In short, how will it prevent another 25.4 m mast appearing in the middle of a town of historic beauty?

We must strike a balance between public good, public amenity, visual beauty and the benefits to communities. I commend my motion to the chamber.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C709941", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Telecommunications", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26950, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 153.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 153.0, "ID": 26950, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 177.0, "ContributionID": 709941, "EditedText": "I call Elaine Thomson—sorry, I call Elaine Smith; I called the wrong member. Interruption. Please put your card in, Elaine.", "EditedTextHTML": "I call Elaine Thomson—sorry, I call Elaine Smith; I called the wrong member. [Interruption.] Please put your card in, Elaine.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C709947", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Telecommunications", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26950, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 153.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 153.0, "ID": 26950, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 189.0, "ContributionID": 709947, "EditedText": "I am not aware of that having been said in that exact way. My understanding is that the standing orders allow a member to move a motion to extend. For that reason, I will accept the motion. However, we shall double-check the position, just to be on the safe side. The question is, that the motion be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am not aware of that having been said in that exact way. My understanding is that the standing orders allow a member to move a motion to extend. For that reason, I will accept the motion. However, we shall double-check the position, just to be on the safe side.

The question is, that the motion be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2068E171P304C709949", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Telecommunications", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26950, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 153.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 153.0, "ID": 26950, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stone, Jamie", "ID": 2068, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie Stone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 193.0, "ContributionID": 709949, "EditedText": "I too congratulate Nick on securing this debate. I do not disagree with what has been said so far, but Sylvia, in particular, picked through the subject in a wise manner.From the slightly different perspective of the northern Highlands rather than that of Kinross, on a positive note, the good news is that we welcome the increase in the use of telephones because they provide much-needed, vital jobs in Thurso and Alness in my constituency. Indeed, the improved reception in parts of Sutherland is welcomed locally. On a more fearful note, we must be careful not to scaremonger about this issue. I see that Dr Simpson is here and I share his fears. I do not know how many members remember the repeat of the programme about Alan Clark, which was recorded a year or two before he died. In the programme, he said, \"I am not going to use this damned thing and give myself a brain tumour\". My own children, who are at secondary school, say to me, \"Dad, can I have a mobile phone?\" I fall about laughing, but they say, \"But our classmates have them\". Mobile phones are found throughout our schools and, quite frankly, they are a curse. It is a joke that kids use mobile phones and pagers, but it is a chilling thought to consider the possible health risks. I stress that they are only possible. I would like to add my support to what Keith said. Let us dig into the health issue as deep as we can and as soon as we can. I think that Sylvia got it right when she said that, although many of these matters lie with another place, it behoves us, as the Scottish Parliament, to take a Scottish initiative, as Sylvia put it, and to recommend that the minister take as good a look as she can at the issues and, if necessary, make representations to Westminster.", "EditedTextHTML": "I too congratulate Nick on securing this debate. I do not disagree with what has been said so far, but Sylvia, in particular,

picked through the subject in a wise manner.

From the slightly different perspective of the northern Highlands rather than that of Kinross, on a positive note, the good news is that we welcome the increase in the use of telephones because they provide much-needed, vital jobs in Thurso and Alness in my constituency. Indeed, the improved reception in parts of Sutherland is welcomed locally. On a more fearful note, we must be careful not to scaremonger about this issue. I see that Dr Simpson is here and I share his fears.

I do not know how many members remember the repeat of the programme about Alan Clark, which was recorded a year or two before he died. In the programme, he said, \"I am not going to use this damned thing and give myself a brain tumour\". My own children, who are at secondary school, say to me, \"Dad, can I have a mobile phone?\" I fall about laughing, but they say, \"But our classmates have them\". Mobile phones are found throughout our schools and, quite frankly, they are a curse. It is a joke that kids use mobile phones and pagers, but it is a chilling thought to consider the possible health risks. I stress that they are only possible.

I would like to add my support to what Keith said. Let us dig into the health issue as deep as we can and as soon as we can. I think that Sylvia got it right when she said that, although many of these matters lie with another place, it behoves us, as the Scottish Parliament, to take a Scottish initiative, as Sylvia put it, and to recommend that the minister take as good a look as she can at the issues and, if necessary, make representations to Westminster.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1908E166P251C709950", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 27 Oct 1999", "ID": 4185 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-27T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Telecommunications", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26950, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 153.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 153.0, "ID": 26950, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Kerr, Andy", "ID": 1908, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Kilbride" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andy Kerr", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Andy Kerr (East Kilbride) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 196.0, "ContributionID": 709950, "EditedText": "I can bring good news to this debate. If members have followed the work of the Transport and the Environment Committee, which I have the pleasure of chairing, they will see that we have already had a pre-briefing on the subject. I have arranged for our next four meetings to be on the subject of mobile phone masts and their effects. For members' information, we have received 102 responses from the general public, organisations, community groups, health bodies, local councils and other bodies regarding our investigation. I have sent a proposed list for giving oral evidence to the committee. Our colleagues from Kinross are with us today. I have seen the photographs and I understand their concerns on the local issues. Their submission was a very good one. We intend to take a broad view of whom we will invite to give evidence to us. Obviously, we will invite representatives of the industry, the mobile phone operators, as well as local planning authorities, community organisations and individuals. I hope that we get a broad view of what is going on, because there is genuine concern. I first came across the situation when a member of a residents association from Lister tower in East Kilbride approached me and said, \"We've got this thing on our roof. What does it mean for us? What is the effect on us?\" We need to deal with such matters. We can deal with them in the powerful committees of this powerful Parliament. That is what the Transport and the Environment Committee will be doing over the next month or so. That is a good example of dealing with an issue which has come to members through postbags or surgeries. We can drive it into our system, a committee can pick the matter up, draw together the best brains, I hope, in the country and bring in the Executive, who have, from my discussions with Sarah, always been open to what the committee is trying to achieve. I hope that we can come to a solution which will benefit communities, but which will also address the balancing act that is required when taking into account the technological development that mobile phones represent. We need to ensure that we benefit from the technology. The bottom line is safety and confidence in the planning regime. The Transport and the Environment Committee will examine this issue with great thoroughness, will take on board the views that it receives and will draw its own conclusions on the Executive's position, as the committees are allowed to do in this Parliament. We will bring our view back to the chamber. The committee is working effectively on the issue, and I hope to bring good news back here.", "EditedTextHTML": "I can bring good news to this debate. If members have followed the work of the Transport and the Environment Committee, which I have the pleasure of chairing, they will see that we have already had a pre-briefing on the subject. I have arranged for our next four meetings to be on the subject of mobile phone masts and their effects. For members' information, we have received 102 responses from the general public, organisations, community groups, health bodies, local councils and other bodies regarding our investigation. I have sent a proposed list for giving oral evidence to the committee.

Our colleagues from Kinross are with us today. I have seen the photographs and I understand their concerns on the local issues. Their submission was a very good one. We intend to take a broad view of whom we will invite to give evidence to us. Obviously, we will invite representatives of the industry, the mobile phone operators, as well as local planning authorities, community organisations and individuals.

I hope that we get a broad view of what is going on, because there is genuine concern. I first came across the situation when a member of a residents association from Lister tower in East Kilbride approached me and said, \"We've got this thing on our roof. What does it mean for us? What is the effect on us?\" We need to deal with such matters. We can deal with them in the powerful committees of this powerful Parliament. That is what the Transport and the Environment Committee will be doing over the next month or so.

That is a good example of dealing with an issue which has come to members through postbags or surgeries. We can drive it into our system, a committee can pick the matter up, draw together the best brains, I hope, in the country and bring in the Executive, who have, from my discussions with Sarah, always been open to what the committee is trying to achieve. I hope that we can come to a solution which will benefit communities, but which will also address the balancing act that is required when taking into account the technological development that mobile phones represent. We need to ensure that we benefit from the technology.

The bottom line is safety and confidence in the planning regime. The Transport and the Environment Committee will examine this issue with great thoroughness, will take on board the views that it receives and will draw its own conclusions on the Executive's position, as the committees are allowed to do in this Parliament. We will bring our view back to the chamber. The committee is working effectively on the issue, and I hope to bring good news back here.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6545761+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C709622", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26915, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 468.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26916, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 469.0, "QuestionHeading": "Telecommunications Masts", "QuestionHeadingID": 26925, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 568.0, "DisplayOrder": 568.0, "ID": 26925, "ParentID": 26916 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 573.0, "ContributionID": 709622, "EditedText": "There will be a 28-day prior notification period, which will give local authorities greater control over the process. We also intend to issue a practice advice note to encourage telecommunications companies to work together on the siting of masts. I believe that, by giving local authorities more influence, we will be able to tackle the issue that Mr Johnston raised.", "EditedTextHTML": "There will be a 28-day prior notification period, which will give local authorities greater control over the process. We also intend to issue a practice advice note to encourage telecommunications companies to work together on the siting of masts. I believe that, by giving local authorities more influence, we will be able to tackle the issue that Mr Johnston raised.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:13.3570755+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C709695", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Railways", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26938, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 719.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 719.0, "ID": 26938, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 733.0, "ContributionID": 709695, "EditedText": "I believe that we will be able to make appreciable improvements to the railways network in Scotland. There have already been improvements in the Glasgow to Edinburgh service as a result of the ScotRail 2000 exercise. That will improve the quality of service across the central belt. Improvements have also been made between Glasgow and Edinburgh and Aberdeen, and between Glasgow and Edinburgh and the Fife network. There will be new investment in stock and increased provision of railway facilities throughout Scotland. I hope that the Scottish Parliament will be able to focus attention on the priorities for future railways investment. The Scottish public transport fund—we have already made the first allocation, the second is due shortly—presents the opportunity to consider the priorities suggested by local authorities. A good example of that is the £8 million we gave to Edinburgh for the cross-rail project. The freight facilities grant presents another welcome opportunity. When I have visited local authorities over the past few months, I have encouraged them to consider what schemes they and the rail companies might suggest to the Scottish Executive so that we can work together to improve the transfer of freight from road to rail and invest in new facilities. We recognise that that transfer often involves substantial capital investment for the companies involved. That is the purpose of the freight facilities grant. The Transport Development Group Nexus development in Grangemouth, for example, will enable the development of sidings. At first, they will be used primarily by TDG Nexus, but other firms will be able to use them in future. I was glad that TDG Nexus was able to confirm that on the day we announced the award.", "EditedTextHTML": "I believe that we will be able to make appreciable improvements to the railways network in Scotland. There have already been improvements in the Glasgow to Edinburgh service as a result of the ScotRail 2000 exercise. That will improve the quality of service across the central belt. Improvements have also been made between Glasgow and Edinburgh and Aberdeen, and between Glasgow and Edinburgh and the Fife network. There will be new investment in stock and increased provision of railway facilities throughout Scotland.

I hope that the Scottish Parliament will be able to focus attention on the priorities for future railways investment. The Scottish public transport fund—we have already made the first allocation, the second is due shortly—presents the opportunity to consider the priorities suggested by local authorities. A good example of that is the £8 million we gave to Edinburgh for the cross-rail project.

The freight facilities grant presents another welcome opportunity. When I have visited local authorities over the past few months, I have encouraged them to consider what schemes they and the rail companies might suggest to the Scottish Executive so that we can work together to improve the transfer of freight from road to rail and invest in new facilities. We recognise that that transfer often involves substantial capital investment for the companies involved. That is the purpose of the freight facilities grant.

The Transport Development Group Nexus development in Grangemouth, for example, will enable the development of sidings. At first, they will be used primarily by TDG Nexus, but other firms will be able to use them in future. I was glad that TDG Nexus was able to confirm that on the day we announced the award.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:13.3570755+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C709697", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Railways", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26938, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 719.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 719.0, "ID": 26938, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 737.0, "ContributionID": 709697, "EditedText": "I am happy to report to Mr Muldoon that during the summer I met the zonal director of Railtrack Scotland, Janette Anderson, and the managing director of ScotRail, Alistair MacPherson. One of the issues that we discussed in those separate meetings was rail safety. A large number of accidents on the railway network of Great Britain are caused by vandalism, but in Scotland the proportion of accidents caused by vandalism is significantly higher than in the rest of the country. That is an important issue for us to focus on in Scotland. We need to take it seriously, and I hope to follow it up when I meet the British Transport Police next month. Safety is one of the key issues that is addressed in the ScotRail franchise. We need to consider safety in broad terms, not just in terms of track investment and the quality of investment by Railtrack, but in terms of the management of rail services. We also need to consider safety at individual stations. Strathclyde Passenger Transport Executive and ScotRail have installed closed-circuit television in many stations in the west of Scotland. CCTV gives passengers at unstaffed stations the reassurance that somebody is watching. On a recent visit to Paisley, it was interesting to watch how it works in practice and to see the level of scrutiny in stations with CCTV. I hope that that such measures can be expanded throughout Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am happy to report to Mr Muldoon that during the summer I met the zonal director of Railtrack Scotland, Janette Anderson, and the managing director of ScotRail, Alistair MacPherson. One of the issues that we discussed in those separate meetings was rail safety. A large number of accidents on the railway network of Great Britain are caused by vandalism, but in Scotland the proportion of accidents caused by vandalism is significantly higher than in the rest of the country. That is an important issue for us to focus on in Scotland. We need to take it seriously, and I hope to follow it up when I meet the British Transport Police next month.

Safety is one of the key issues that is addressed in the ScotRail franchise. We need to consider safety in broad terms, not just in terms of track investment and the quality of investment by Railtrack, but in terms of the management of rail services. We also need to consider safety at individual stations. Strathclyde Passenger

Transport Executive and ScotRail have installed closed-circuit television in many stations in the west of Scotland. CCTV gives passengers at unstaffed stations the reassurance that somebody is watching. On a recent visit to Paisley, it was interesting to watch how it works in practice and to see the level of scrutiny in stations with CCTV. I hope that that such measures can be expanded throughout Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:13.3570755+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C709707", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Railways", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26938, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 719.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 719.0, "ID": 26938, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 757.0, "ContributionID": 709707, "EditedText": "I thank Ms McNeill for her comments. She has raised the matter with me several times since the summer. Concerns have centred on overcrowding on certain trains, particularly between Glasgow and Edinburgh. I hope that a train every 15 minutes between those cities will make an appreciable difference to that service by spreading the load. As for passenger comfort, the number of people travelling on the railways in Scotland has increased by about 20 per cent over the past couple of years. The rail industry is growing, which requires a response from the rail companies as well as from Government. I take on board Ms McNeill's point that passenger comfort is absolutely crucial for people to make the shift from road to rail. If people are going to use the railway network, the network has to be of a high quality. I am happy to raise those points in my discussions with ScotRail and the other train companies.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank Ms McNeill for her comments. She has raised the matter with me several times since the summer. Concerns have centred on overcrowding on certain trains, particularly between Glasgow and Edinburgh. I hope that a train every 15 minutes between those cities will make an appreciable difference to that service by spreading the load.

As for passenger comfort, the number of people travelling on the railways in Scotland has increased by about 20 per cent over the past couple of years. The rail industry is growing, which requires a response from the rail companies as well as from Government. I take on board Ms McNeill's point that passenger comfort is absolutely crucial for people to make the shift from road to rail. If people are going to use the railway network, the network has to be of a high quality. I am happy to raise those points in my discussions with ScotRail and the other train companies.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:14.3101891+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C709713", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Railways", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26938, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 719.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 719.0, "ID": 26938, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 769.0, "ContributionID": 709713, "EditedText": "I would not like to make any comments about the next set of passenger rail franchises. We will deal with them later. I agree with Nora: attracting more passengers on to the rail network has to be one of our key priorities. The Executive needs to take forward the issues of safety, reliability, accessibility and ticketing as part of our overall approach to improving the quality of the railway network in Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "I would not like to make any comments about the next set of passenger rail franchises. We will deal with them later. I agree with Nora: attracting more passengers on to the rail network has to be one of our key priorities.

The Executive needs to take forward the issues of safety, reliability, accessibility and ticketing as part of our overall approach to improving the quality of the railway network in Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:14.3101891+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1860E111P160C709860", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Organisations", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26944, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 966.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 966.0, "ID": 26944, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Grant, Rhoda", "ID": 1860, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Rhoda Grant", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Rhoda Grant (Highlands and Islands) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1057.0, "ContributionID": 709860, "EditedText": "I am pleased to have the opportunity to highlight the value that we attach to those who work in the voluntary sector. We must encourage people to volunteer and take part in the enormous support system that the voluntary sector provides for society. Voluntary effort is even more important in regard to children and young people. For generations, adults have complained about young people wasting their time hanging around the streets, but they do that because they have nothing else to do. Many voluntary organisations—scouts, guides, the Boys Brigade and youth cafes to name but a few—provide them with something to do. That requires a huge time commitment on the part of adults, the majority of whom are generous and well meaning. However, those who prey on children try to join those organisations. We must protect children from them, so I support the initiative that gives voluntary organisations access to the SCRO checks that they require. I understand that that may put pressure on volunteers and voluntary organisations, so I welcome the Executive's decision to monitor the situation. Some volunteers contribute money as well as time, and checks will not be a barrier for them, but there are others who are unwaged who look to volunteering to provide them with a focus. It also enables them to provide support for young people. We need to consider their needs and ensure that we do not prevent them from making a contribution. I urge the minister to bear that in mind when she carries out her review.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am pleased to have the opportunity to highlight the value that we attach to those who work in the voluntary sector. We must encourage people to volunteer and take part in the enormous support system that the voluntary sector provides for society.

Voluntary effort is even more important in regard to children and young people. For generations, adults have complained about young people wasting their time hanging around the streets, but they do that because they have nothing else to do. Many voluntary organisations—scouts, guides, the Boys Brigade and youth cafes to name but a few—provide them with something to do. That requires a huge time commitment on the part of adults, the majority of whom are generous and well meaning.

However, those who prey on children try to join those organisations. We must protect children from them, so I support the initiative that gives voluntary organisations access to the SCRO checks that they require. I understand that that may put pressure on volunteers and voluntary organisations, so I welcome the Executive's decision to monitor the situation.

Some volunteers contribute money as well as time, and checks will not be a barrier for them, but there are others who are unwaged who look to volunteering to provide them with a focus. It also enables them to provide support for young people.

We need to consider their needs and ensure that we do not prevent them from making a contribution. I urge the minister to bear that in mind when she carries out her review.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:01:23.8313068+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2180E179P471C709643", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26915, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 468.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26916, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 469.0, "QuestionHeading": "Fishing Industry", "QuestionHeadingID": 26930, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 613.0, "DisplayOrder": 613.0, "ID": 26930, "ParentID": 26916 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lochhead, Richard", "ID": 2180, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Lochhead", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Richard Lochhead: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 620.0, "ContributionID": 709643, "EditedText": "Is the minister aware that fishermen in East Lothian are united behind the rest of the industry's campaign to get Scotland's stolen waters returned to Scottish jurisdiction and that their campaign is on-going? They are ploughing resources into their campaign to get the waters back and they are looking for action from their fisheries minister to support their case.", "EditedTextHTML": "Is the minister aware that fishermen in East Lothian are united behind the rest of the industry's campaign to get Scotland's stolen waters returned to Scottish jurisdiction and that their campaign is on-going? They are ploughing resources into their campaign to get the waters back and they are looking for action from their fisheries minister to support their case.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:44.0221047+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2180E179P471C709542", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lochhead, Richard", "ID": 2180, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Lochhead", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Richard Lochhead: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 401.0, "ContributionID": 709542, "EditedText": "I thank Lord James for giving way. In light of his comments in connection with the fishing industry, will he join me in condemning the recent comments made by the House of Commons Agriculture Committee in its report on sea fishing? The report says that concordats should be used to curb any advantage that devolution might give to Scotland's fishermen.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank Lord James for giving way. In light of his comments in connection with the fishing industry, will he join me in condemning the recent comments made by the House of Commons Agriculture Committee in its report on sea fishing? The report says that concordats should be used to curb any advantage that devolution might give to Scotland's fishermen.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:31.1569345+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2180E179P471C709560", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lochhead, Richard", "ID": 2180, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Lochhead", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Richard Lochhead: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 439.0, "ContributionID": 709560, "EditedText": "Can Mr Wallace reconcile the answer that he gave me on 21 September— that the Scottish Parliament would not be party to any concordats—with his words on 2 December 1997 in the House of Commons, when he sought assurance from the then minister that the concordats would indeed come before the Scottish Parliament?", "EditedTextHTML": "Can Mr Wallace reconcile the answer that he gave me on 21 September— that the Scottish Parliament would not be party to any concordats—with his words on 2 December 1997 in the House of Commons, when he sought assurance from the then minister that the concordats would indeed come before the Scottish Parliament?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:31.1569345+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709357", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 14.0, "ContributionID": 709357, "EditedText": "First of all, I want to say that it is a pleasure to deal for a change with a genuine point of order, however difficult. Laughter. I think that the common-sense thing to do is to accept written notice of a manuscript amendment. I will then announce the amendment during the debate. However, the amendment will not be required to be voted on; it will simply be an amendment to the motion. Interruption. I am advised that we probably will have to vote on the amendment, but I will think about that later. However, for the moment, I would like the necessary written notice of the amendment, which I will then announce during the debate. In the meantime, I suggest that we get the debate going. I call the First Minister to move the motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "First of all, I want to say that it is a pleasure to deal for a change with a genuine point of order, however difficult. [Laughter.]

I think that the common-sense thing to do is to accept written notice of a manuscript amendment. I will then announce the amendment during the debate. However, the amendment will not be required to be voted on; it will simply be an amendment to the motion. [Interruption.]

I am advised that we probably will have to vote on the amendment, but I will think about that later. However, for the moment, I would like the necessary written notice of the amendment, which I will then announce during the debate. In the meantime, I suggest that we get the debate going. I call the First Minister to move the motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C709360", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 21.0, "ContributionID": 709360, "EditedText": "I am not aware of that quotation. I accept, though, from John Swinney, that that was said. I will take advice on this in the course of this morning, but my understanding is that the documents are not legally binding. Clearly, there are situations in which a judicial review of the actions of any Administration can arise. I presume that that is a reflection of the fact that the power to go to court to ask for a judicial review remains if it is thought that an Executive or Administration has acted unreasonably and prejudiced the interests of an individual. The documents are not legally binding in the sense that a finger can point and say, \"I read such-and-such in paragraph X. That has not been carried out and I ask for a declarator that it should be.\" However, the general power of judicial review, presumably, remains.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am not aware of that quotation. I accept, though, from John Swinney, that that was said. I will take advice on this in the course of this morning, but my understanding is that the documents are not legally binding. Clearly, there are situations in which a judicial review of the actions of any Administration can arise. I presume that that is a reflection of the fact that the power to go to court to ask for a judicial review remains if it is thought that an Executive or Administration has acted unreasonably and prejudiced the interests of an individual.

The documents are not legally binding in the sense that a finger can point and say, \"I read such-and-such in paragraph X. That has not been carried out and I ask for a declarator that it should be.\" However, the general power of judicial review, presumably, remains.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C709361", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Murray Tosh (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 23.0, "ContributionID": 709361, "EditedText": "To follow on from the previous point, how might this Parliament scrutinise the working of the concordats? It appears that the Public Administration Committee of the House of Commons can do so. In this Parliament, there is no obvious mechanism for us to scrutinise how the Executive discharges those functions. Could the First Minister spell out how the Administration sees that being done?", "EditedTextHTML": "To follow on from the previous point, how might this Parliament scrutinise the working of the concordats? It appears that the Public Administration Committee of the House of Commons can do so. In this Parliament, there is no obvious mechanism for us to scrutinise how the Executive discharges those functions. Could the First Minister spell out how the Administration sees that being done?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2029E47P167C709370", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Henry, Hugh", "ID": 2029, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Hugh Henry", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Hugh Henry (Paisley South) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 41.0, "ContributionID": 709370, "EditedText": "Will the First Minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the First Minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C709377", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 55.0, "ContributionID": 709377, "EditedText": "I was asked to speak for only 15 minutes, so I am getting alarmed at the number of interventions. I will let Alex Neil in once, but then I must make some progress.", "EditedTextHTML": "I was asked to speak for only 15 minutes, so I am getting alarmed at the number of interventions. I will let Alex Neil in once, but then I must make some progress.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1878E208P502C709389", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Dr Winnie", "ID": 1878, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Winnie Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 79.0, "ContributionID": 709389, "EditedText": "I am so sorry.Is not it the case that, prior to today's debate, it was said, for instance by Mr McLeish when the European Parliament Committee on Legal Affairs and the Internal Market visited Edinburgh, that if the Scottish interest dominated on a particular issue, for example, on fishing, the Scottish minister attending negotiations would have priority? Has that position changed?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am so sorry.

Is not it the case that, prior to today's debate, it was said, for instance by Mr McLeish when the European Parliament Committee on Legal Affairs and the Internal Market visited Edinburgh, that if the Scottish interest dominated on a particular issue, for example, on fishing, the Scottish minister attending negotiations would have priority? Has that position changed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C709392", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 85.0, "ContributionID": 709392, "EditedText": "I move,That the Parliament endorses the Memorandum of Understanding and supplementary agreements concluded between the United Kingdom Government, Scottish Ministers and the National Assembly for Wales.", "EditedTextHTML": "I move,

That the Parliament endorses the Memorandum of Understanding and supplementary agreements concluded between the United Kingdom Government, Scottish

Ministers and the National Assembly for Wales.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C709395", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 91.0, "ContributionID": 709395, "EditedText": "It would be better if you dealt with the previous point, Presiding Officer.", "EditedTextHTML": "It would be better if you dealt with the previous point, Presiding Officer.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C709397", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 95.0, "ContributionID": 709397, "EditedText": "I am very sorry that I gave way to you, Sir David, as that was precisely the point of order that I was going to raise. Laughter.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am very sorry that I gave way to you, Sir David, as that was precisely the point of order that I was going to raise. [Laughter.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C709390", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 81.0, "ContributionID": 709390, "EditedText": "Nothing has changed. I will come on to that in a moment, but the position remains that we will be fully involved in the formation of policy, that we will be in attendance at negotiations and that there will be agreement on who should speak on any specific occasion. That has always been the position and it is a sensible one. The system is already in place and is beginning to work well. I hope that people accept that. The European Union concordat allows for Scottish Executive ministers and officials to have full and continuing involvement in policy formulation, negotiation and implementation. If Dr Ewing looks at paragraph B1.3 of the concordat on co-ordination of EU policy issues, she will see that it states unambiguously that, \"the UK Government wishes to involve the Scottish Executive as directly and fully as possible in decision making on EU matters.\" If she has the energy to pursue the matter, Dr Ewing will see that that message is reinforced in paragraph B3.13, which makes it clear that the UK ministers \"will take into account that the devolved administrations should have a role to play in meetings of the Council of Ministers at which substantive discussion is expected of matters likely to have a significant impact on their devolved responsibilities.\" Paragraph B3.14 makes provision for\"Ministers from the devolved administrations speaking for the UK in Council\". It goes on to say that such ministers would speak\"with the full weight of the UK behind them, because the policy positions advanced will have been agreed among the UK interests.\" I recognise that there is a wish to pursue conspiracy theories, but the European Union is one area of activity where there will be considerable gains for Scotland and for the country's commerce and industry. Next week, I will be in Brussels with a number of my colleagues to open Scotland House. I will hold a series of meetings with commissioners and we intend to keep in close touch with European affairs. The devolution settlement allows us to have a constitutional basis on which we can operate alongside the German Länder and the Spanish autonomous provinces. It is a matter of political judgment, but I believe that there are considerable advantages in being a player in the big league and in having the weight of the United Kingdom behind us on agreed policy positions. If we were a new member—presumably after negotiations—we would be on the fringe of events. That matter is up for political discussion, but the decision was taken by people when they voted at the previous election and in the referendum. The position is fully and honestly reflected in the concordats, not just the one on European Union matters, but the one that deals with financial assistance to industry. Paragraph C17, for example, states that \"Ministers and officials of the devolved administrations will be fully involved in discussions within the UK Government about the formulation of the UK's policy position on all issues which touch on financial assistance to industry.\" The concordats are an honest and full response to and implementation of what we promised during the devolution debate and, as such, ought to be welcomed. If we are ever in the position—although I do not anticipate that we shall be—where a UK Administration is flouting some of the specific provisions that are laid down in the concordats, the wisdom of having them written down and agreed will become apparent. The fact that the nationalists have suspicions about human nature—specifically, about the nature of United Kingdom politics—underlines the need for taking precautions. The provisions fulfil in every sense the agreements reached about co-operation and about ensuring the place of the Scottish Parliament Administration in the UK's European Councils. The nationalists may continue to argue the nationalist case, but I do not believe that they can do that if they apply honestly the criteria of the political settlement that lies behind these concordats. On the international concordat—I will be very brief—the white paper made it clear that arrangements would be made for the Executive to play a part in the conduct of international negotiations. Anyone who reads that concordat will see that those arrangements are fully reflected. I will say a word or two about the concordat on financial assistance. It is in Scotland's best interests to have this concordat in place. Its intention is to provide a framework that enables fair competition and value for money in our economic development work. There have always been agreements—bases for understanding—and it is right that we should continue to have those. That sensible proposition is at the heart of this concordat. For example, no one wants one part of the UK to bid for an inward investor against another part of the UK with the consequence that both end up bidding for one firm—one incomer—in a way that may result in much larger financial commitments being entered into than are necessary. I do not think that that is sensible, or that we want that to happen. I do not want to use the phrase ripped off, but there could be, for example, an auction house situation, where one could end up bidding for the same piece against a friend who was also there— one might feel silly at the end of that process. While that is a rather homely and simple analogy, I hope that it is one that will help the Opposition parties' understanding of the concordat. I stress that there is a clearing house for the exchange of information where there is room for discussion both at official level and at bilateral level between ministers. Ultimately, there will be discussion at a formal ministerial committee. I think that that is a sensible approach. There is no question of dictation or of the imposition of vetoes. To use another lay term which I think is appropriate, if there should be a clash of interests, it is right that that should be exposed, examined and, I hope, settled. Of course, if it is not possible to settle such a clash, no doubt people will make their own way. It is a sensible provision; it is not a threat or some sort of shackling. Indeed, I was rather entertained to hear the announcement that the European Union provisions were some form of constitutional shackling. That is a heavy description for sensible administrative arrangements and co-ordination. On shackling, I think that the consequences of the policies pursued by the nationalists would be a great deal more damaging and difficult. This morning, I listened to an interview with Andrew Wilson on the radio. He said that our difficulty is that we were not able just to pour more money into social services. As you may remember, Presiding Officer, he was the gentleman who started the election campaign saying that there was no fiscal deficit. He ended up working it out on the back of an envelope and, 10 minutes later, had to say that he had got it wrong. There are great dangers in nationalist policies, but I do not think that there are dangers in sensible, orderly arrangements made between the parties who have to work together to arrive at the right solutions to Scotland's problems. I briefly mentioned statistics earlier and, for completeness, I say that it is sensible that each Administration has the comparative information it needs on a consistent basis. The concordat on statistics will ensure that information at GB and UK levels can be maintained. One of Scotland's strengths is that we have a statistical base that is particularly strong, set against rural regions of England, for example. We want to supplement and strengthen that, particularly in areas where UK responsibilities impinge upon Scotland. We have a clear duty to supply relevant information to UK Administrations. Even if I give every allowance to the ingenuity of the nationalists, I cannot believe that anyone could disagree with that. I hope that I have helped to clarify what these documents are—and, more important, what they are not. Provision is made for all the concordats to evolve and to be amended in the light of experience. However, as a first attempt at mapping out how relationships between the Executive and the UK Government should work, I think that they are comprehensive and, more important, I hope that they are comprehensible. Once this package of multilateral agreements has been endorsed by the Parliament, we can proceed with the publication of the bilateral concordats that will follow. The documents have been put before the Parliament because we believe that they should be discussed. They provide a valuable and well- reasoned framework for managing our inter- Administration relationships within the UK. They contain soundly reasoned proposals for co-operation and mutual support and they fully meet the purpose for which they were designed—no more, no less. These documents reflect precisely and honourably the white paper, the contents of the Scotland Act 1998 and the pledges given during the devolution debates by ministers. I hope that the Opposition will accept that we are considering the documents within that context—they are the delivery of the machinery that will make devolution work. As such, they make every possible sense and every proper provision for our future governance. They are working documents, they are aide-mémoires for officials and they reinforce and buttress the firm intent—the determination—of both Holyrood and Westminster to work together for the common good. They are part of the machinery that will allow Scotland's Parliament to work well with the rest of the United Kingdom and to serve Scotland's people. I commend them to the Parliament and I commend the memorandum of understanding and the supplementary agreements that are laid before the chamber by the Scottish Executive. As a dying fall, Presiding Officer, I move, as amendment to motion S1M-186, after \"Scottish Ministers and the\", insert \"Cabinet of the\". I hope that the amendment is acceptable to the chamber.", "EditedTextHTML": "Nothing has changed. I will come on to that in a moment, but the position remains that we will be fully involved in the formation of policy, that we will be in attendance at negotiations and that there will be agreement on who should speak on any specific occasion. That has always been the position and it is a sensible one. The system is already in place and is beginning to work well. I hope that people accept that.

The European Union concordat allows for Scottish Executive ministers and officials to have full and continuing involvement in policy formulation, negotiation and implementation. If Dr Ewing looks at paragraph B1.3 of the concordat on co-ordination of EU policy issues, she will see that it states unambiguously that,

\"the UK Government wishes to involve the Scottish Executive as directly and fully as possible in decision making on EU matters.\"

If she has the energy to pursue the matter, Dr Ewing will see that that message is reinforced in paragraph B3.13, which makes it clear that the UK ministers

\"will take into account that the devolved administrations should have a role to play in meetings of the Council of Ministers at which substantive discussion is expected of matters likely to have a significant impact on their devolved responsibilities.\"

Paragraph B3.14 makes provision for

\"Ministers from the devolved administrations speaking for the UK in Council\".

It goes on to say that such ministers would speak

\"with the full weight of the UK behind them, because the policy positions advanced will have been agreed among the UK interests.\"

I recognise that there is a wish to pursue conspiracy theories, but the European Union is one area of activity where there will be considerable gains for Scotland and for the country's commerce and industry. Next week, I will be in Brussels with a number of my colleagues to open Scotland House. I will hold a series of meetings with commissioners and we intend to keep in close touch with European affairs. The devolution settlement allows us to have a constitutional basis on which we can operate alongside the German Länder and the Spanish autonomous provinces.

It is a matter of political judgment, but I believe that there are considerable advantages in being a player in the big league and in having the weight of the United Kingdom behind us on agreed policy

positions. If we were a new member—presumably after negotiations—we would be on the fringe of events. That matter is up for political discussion, but the decision was taken by people when they voted at the previous election and in the referendum.

The position is fully and honestly reflected in the concordats, not just the one on European Union matters, but the one that deals with financial assistance to industry. Paragraph C17, for example, states that

\"Ministers and officials of the devolved administrations will be fully involved in discussions within the UK Government about the formulation of the UK's policy position on all issues which touch on financial assistance to industry.\"

The concordats are an honest and full response to and implementation of what we promised during the devolution debate and, as such, ought to be welcomed.

If we are ever in the position—although I do not anticipate that we shall be—where a UK Administration is flouting some of the specific provisions that are laid down in the concordats, the wisdom of having them written down and agreed will become apparent. The fact that the nationalists have suspicions about human nature—specifically, about the nature of United Kingdom politics—underlines the need for taking precautions. The provisions fulfil in every sense the agreements reached about co-operation and about ensuring the place of the Scottish Parliament Administration in the UK's European Councils. The nationalists may continue to argue the nationalist case, but I do not believe that they can do that if they apply honestly the criteria of the political settlement that lies behind these concordats.

On the international concordat—I will be very brief—the white paper made it clear that arrangements would be made for the Executive to play a part in the conduct of international negotiations. Anyone who reads that concordat will see that those arrangements are fully reflected.

I will say a word or two about the concordat on financial assistance. It is in Scotland's best interests to have this concordat in place. Its intention is to provide a framework that enables fair competition and value for money in our economic development work.

There have always been agreements—bases for understanding—and it is right that we should continue to have those. That sensible proposition is at the heart of this concordat. For example, no one wants one part of the UK to bid for an inward investor against another part of the UK with the consequence that both end up bidding for one firm—one incomer—in a way that may result in much larger financial commitments being entered into than are necessary. I do not think that that is sensible, or that we want that to happen.

I do not want to use the phrase ripped off, but there could be, for example, an auction house situation, where one could end up bidding for the same piece against a friend who was also there— one might feel silly at the end of that process. While that is a rather homely and simple analogy, I hope that it is one that will help the Opposition parties' understanding of the concordat.

I stress that there is a clearing house for the exchange of information where there is room for discussion both at official level and at bilateral level between ministers. Ultimately, there will be discussion at a formal ministerial committee. I think that that is a sensible approach. There is no question of dictation or of the imposition of vetoes. To use another lay term which I think is appropriate, if there should be a clash of interests, it is right that that should be exposed, examined and, I hope, settled. Of course, if it is not possible to settle such a clash, no doubt people will make their own way.

It is a sensible provision; it is not a threat or some sort of shackling. Indeed, I was rather entertained to hear the announcement that the European Union provisions were some form of constitutional shackling. That is a heavy description for sensible administrative arrangements and co-ordination. On shackling, I think that the consequences of the policies pursued by the nationalists would be a great deal more damaging and difficult.

This morning, I listened to an interview with Andrew Wilson on the radio. He said that our difficulty is that we were not able just to pour more money into social services. As you may remember, Presiding Officer, he was the gentleman who started the election campaign saying that there was no fiscal deficit. He ended up working it out on the back of an envelope and, 10 minutes later, had to say that he had got it wrong. There are great dangers in nationalist policies, but I do not think that there are dangers in sensible, orderly arrangements made between the parties who have to work together to arrive at the right solutions to Scotland's problems.

I briefly mentioned statistics earlier and, for completeness, I say that it is sensible that each Administration has the comparative information it needs on a consistent basis. The concordat on statistics will ensure that information at GB and UK levels can be maintained. One of Scotland's strengths is that we have a statistical base that is particularly strong, set against rural regions of England, for example. We want to supplement and strengthen that, particularly in areas where UK responsibilities impinge upon Scotland. We have a

clear duty to supply relevant information to UK Administrations. Even if I give every allowance to the ingenuity of the nationalists, I cannot believe that anyone could disagree with that.

I hope that I have helped to clarify what these documents are—and, more important, what they are not. Provision is made for all the concordats to evolve and to be amended in the light of experience. However, as a first attempt at mapping out how relationships between the Executive and the UK Government should work, I think that they are comprehensive and, more important, I hope that they are comprehensible. Once this package of multilateral agreements has been endorsed by the Parliament, we can proceed with the publication of the bilateral concordats that will follow.

The documents have been put before the Parliament because we believe that they should be discussed. They provide a valuable and well- reasoned framework for managing our inter- Administration relationships within the UK. They contain soundly reasoned proposals for co-operation and mutual support and they fully meet the purpose for which they were designed—no more, no less.

These documents reflect precisely and honourably the white paper, the contents of the Scotland Act 1998 and the pledges given during the devolution debates by ministers. I hope that the Opposition will accept that we are considering the documents within that context—they are the delivery of the machinery that will make devolution work. As such, they make every possible sense and every proper provision for our future governance. They are working documents, they are aide-mémoires for officials and they reinforce and buttress the firm intent—the determination—of both Holyrood and Westminster to work together for the common good. They are part of the machinery that will allow Scotland's Parliament to work well with the rest of the United Kingdom and to serve Scotland's people. I commend them to the Parliament and I commend the memorandum of understanding and the supplementary agreements that are laid before the chamber by the Scottish Executive.

As a dying fall, Presiding Officer, I move, as amendment to motion S1M-186, after \"Scottish Ministers and the\", insert \"Cabinet of the\".

I hope that the amendment is acceptable to the chamber.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709391", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 83.0, "ContributionID": 709391, "EditedText": "Please move the motion as well.", "EditedTextHTML": "Please move the motion as well.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709398", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 97.0, "ContributionID": 709398, "EditedText": "I always take note of the convener of the Procedures Committee.", "EditedTextHTML": "I always take note of the convener of the Procedures Committee.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2029E47P167C709404", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Henry, Hugh", "ID": 2029, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Hugh Henry", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Hugh Henry: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 110.0, "ContributionID": 709404, "EditedText": "That was not the question. I asked whether Mr Neil could envisage a situation in which the UK Government's interests—which he described as London's interests—coincided with Scotland's interests.", "EditedTextHTML": "That was not the question. I asked whether Mr Neil could envisage a situation in which the UK Government's interests—which he described as London's interests—coincided with Scotland's interests.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C709408", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 118.0, "ContributionID": 709408, "EditedText": "I was not going to bother to interrupt, but Mr Neil has totally misunderstood the nature of the overseas promotion committee and the nature of the joint ministerial committee. There is no question of the chair overruling a majority— that view indicates a total persecution complex that is based on political prejudice. I suggest that Mr Neil withdraws what he has said.", "EditedTextHTML": "I was not going to bother to interrupt, but Mr Neil has totally misunderstood the nature of the overseas promotion committee and the nature of the joint ministerial committee. There is no question of the chair overruling a majority— that view indicates a total persecution complex that is based on political prejudice. I suggest that Mr Neil withdraws what he has said.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C709411", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 124.0, "ContributionID": 709411, "EditedText": "Allow me to quote from the Sunday Herald—which I know will be a favourite newspaper of the First Minister. It says that the final result of those agreements \"has been a triumph for Westminster as having the power to legislate on any issue whether devolved or not, so it is quite clear that the Concordats repeatedly rub the nose of Scotland's devolved Parliament into the ground.\" That comes from a newspaper that believes in devolution and not in independence.", "EditedTextHTML": "Allow me to quote from the Sunday Herald—which I know will be a favourite newspaper of the First Minister. It says that the final result of those agreements

\"has been a triumph for Westminster as having the power to legislate on any issue whether devolved or not, so it is quite clear that the Concordats repeatedly rub the nose of Scotland's devolved Parliament into the ground.\"

That comes from a newspaper that believes in devolution and not in independence.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C709412", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 126.0, "ContributionID": 709412, "EditedText": "Alex Neil is making exactly the mistake that I predicted he would make. He is right that the UK Parliament can, ultimately, legislate. We know that it has passed an act of Parliament that set up a devolved Scottish Parliament with its own terms of reference and its own areas of responsibility. The UK Parliament will not use its theoretical powers to overrule the decisions that the Scottish Parliament makes in its areas of responsibility. His interpretation of the joint ministerial committee—and the scrutiny process for exchange of information and for bringing order to inward investment policy—is a pastiche and a distortion. It is a collection of prejudiced statements that bear no relation to the facts. If what he said was true, we would hear strong words from Locate in Scotland, but we have not.", "EditedTextHTML": "Alex Neil is making exactly the mistake that I predicted he would make. He is right that the UK Parliament can, ultimately, legislate. We know that it has passed an act of Parliament that set up a devolved Scottish

Parliament with its own terms of reference and its own areas of responsibility. The UK Parliament will not use its theoretical powers to overrule the decisions that the Scottish Parliament makes in its areas of responsibility.

His interpretation of the joint ministerial committee—and the scrutiny process for exchange of information and for bringing order to inward investment policy—is a pastiche and a distortion. It is a collection of prejudiced statements that bear no relation to the facts. If what he said was true, we would hear strong words from Locate in Scotland, but we have not.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C709413", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 128.0, "ContributionID": 709413, "EditedText": "First, Locate in Scotland is not entitled to make political comments and, secondly, this issue is not theoretical. The Westminster Parliament has the power to overrule the Scottish Executive and the Scottish Parliament—that is a matter of law. The First Minister cannot make a commitment that any future Administration in London will not legislate onalthough he may argue Government would not do that. devolvedthat the matters, current The First Minister rose—", "EditedTextHTML": "First, Locate in Scotland is not entitled to make political comments and, secondly, this issue is not theoretical. The Westminster Parliament has the power to overrule the Scottish Executive and the Scottish Parliament—that is a matter of law. The First Minister cannot make a commitment that any future Administration in

London will not legislate onalthough he may argue Government would not do that. devolvedthat the matters, current The First Minister rose—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C709415", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 132.0, "ContributionID": 709415, "EditedText": "Does not Mr Neil realise that the fact that we have a devolution settlement invalidates all that he says? He is entitled to his view, but we in Scotland voted for a devolution settlement. The nature of that settlement is that the United Kingdom Parliament, which contains a full representation of Scottish members, remains sovereign. Mr Neil might not like that, but to say that it constitutes a fatal flaw in the concordats is illogical nonsense.", "EditedTextHTML": "Does not Mr Neil realise that the fact that we have a devolution settlement invalidates all that he says? He is entitled to his view, but we in Scotland voted for a devolution settlement. The nature of that settlement is that the United Kingdom Parliament, which contains a full representation of Scottish members, remains sovereign. Mr Neil might not like that, but to say that it constitutes a fatal flaw in the concordats is illogical nonsense.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C709416", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 134.0, "ContributionID": 709416, "EditedText": "There is a fatal flaw if there is to be genuine devolution. Let me make some suggestions about the joint ministerial committee. Why should not we recognise the conflict that could result from asking one minister to represent both English and UK interests? Why do we not insist that, on the ministerial committee, the majority view of the four devolved Administrations rather than the view of the English minister should be the UK view? Why do we not insist that the chairmanship be rotated among the four Administrations? Why do we not insist that the subject committees be chaired by people from the four Administrations? There is nothing anti-devolutionary in those suggestions. To do those things would give a clear signal that there had been genuine devolution from London, rather than the centralised control freakery represented in these documents. The documents are more akin to diktats than to genuine concordats. They have been drawn up not jointly, but unilaterally by the UK Government, as Mr Dewar has said. The agreements are totally unacceptable to the people of Scotland. When the Scottish National party is elected to form the Administration in this Parliament, it will renegotiate the concordats. The concordats do not live up to the needs or aspirations of the Scottish people. Our simple message to Donald Dewar and to Tony Blair is: away hame and think again.", "EditedTextHTML": "There is a fatal flaw if there is to be genuine devolution.

Let me make some suggestions about the joint ministerial committee. Why should not we recognise the conflict that could result from asking one minister to represent both English and UK interests? Why do we not insist that, on the ministerial committee, the majority view of the four devolved Administrations rather than the view of the English minister should be the UK view? Why do we not insist that the chairmanship be rotated among the four Administrations? Why do we not insist that the subject committees be chaired by people from the four Administrations?

There is nothing anti-devolutionary in those suggestions. To do those things would give a clear signal that there had been genuine devolution from London, rather than the centralised control freakery represented in these documents. The documents are more akin to diktats than to genuine concordats. They have been drawn up not jointly, but unilaterally by the UK Government, as Mr Dewar has said.

The agreements are totally unacceptable to the people of Scotland. When the Scottish National party is elected to form the Administration in this Parliament, it will renegotiate the concordats. The concordats do not live up to the needs or aspirations of the Scottish people. Our simple message to Donald Dewar and to Tony Blair is: away hame and think again.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709417", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 136.0, "ContributionID": 709417, "EditedText": "Mr Neil, will you move your drafting amendment and the amendment?", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Neil, will you move your drafting amendment and the amendment?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C709418", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 138.0, "ContributionID": 709418, "EditedText": "Thank you, Presiding Officer. I move, as an amendment to amendment S1M-186.1, insert \"Cabinet of the\" after \"Scottish Ministers and the\". I also move the amendment to motion S1M-186, in the name of the First Minister, to leave out from \"endorses\" to end and insert: \"calls upon the Scottish Executive to re-negotiate the Memorandum of Understanding and supplementary agreements concluded between the United Kingdom Government, Scottish Ministers and the National Assembly of Wales in order to protect the interests of the Scottish people and ensure that no additional constraints are placed on the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\"", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you, Presiding Officer. I move, as an amendment to amendment S1M-186.1, insert \"Cabinet of the\" after \"Scottish Ministers and the\".

I also move the amendment to motion S1M-186, in the name of the First Minister, to leave out from \"endorses\" to end and insert:

\"calls upon the Scottish Executive to re-negotiate the Memorandum of Understanding and supplementary agreements concluded between the United Kingdom Government, Scottish Ministers and the National Assembly of Wales in order to protect the interests of the Scottish people and ensure that no additional constraints are placed on the powers of the Scottish Parliament.\"

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C709421", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Goldie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 145.0, "ContributionID": 709421, "EditedText": "I am delighted to report to Mrs Ewing that my spies tell me otherwise. Mr Neil has legitimately made the position of the nationalists transparent, as he had to. That position is based entirely on an independence agenda and so I understand why it is difficult for him to embrace the spirit of the concordats and the memorandum of understanding. I say to the First Minister that the position of the Conservatives is also transparent: we are a party that is committed to the United Kingdom, but we recognise within the devolved settlement the need for a mechanism to regulate the administrative issues that are bound to arise in the creation of a Parliament such as this. We welcome the composition and the publication of the memorandum of understanding and the concordats as they are contained in the annexes. However, Mr Dewar, we have concerns and it is right that we should articulate them. The document is, for example, optimistically called a memorandum of understanding. I might suggest, Mr Dewar—", "EditedTextHTML": "I am delighted to report to Mrs Ewing that my spies tell me otherwise.

Mr Neil has legitimately made the position of the nationalists transparent, as he had to. That position is based entirely on an independence agenda and so I understand why it is difficult for him to embrace the spirit of the concordats and the memorandum of understanding.

I say to the First Minister that the position of the Conservatives is also transparent: we are a party that is committed to the United Kingdom, but we recognise within the devolved settlement the need for a mechanism to regulate the administrative issues that are bound to arise in the creation of a Parliament such as this.

We welcome the composition and the publication of the memorandum of understanding and the concordats as they are contained in the annexes. However, Mr Dewar, we have concerns and it is right that we should articulate them. The document is, for example, optimistically called a memorandum of understanding. I might suggest, Mr Dewar—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C709423", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Goldie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 149.0, "ContributionID": 709423, "EditedText": "I beg your pardon, Sir David.I suggest to Mr Dewar that if proper regard for parliamentary protocol is not shown, and if there is not reasonable dissemination of information, this document is in grave danger of ending up a memorandum of misunderstanding. It will be a memorandum of misunderstanding because of the genuine paucity of opportunity to consider the content of the document. The Conservatives want the concordats to work—we want them to provide a reliable and stable framework for civilised liaison and a conduit of views. We want them to be a sound structure for determining what the administrative difficulties are. We have genuine concerns, however. I find myself sharing common ground with Mr Neil— Interruption.", "EditedTextHTML": "I beg your pardon, Sir David.

I suggest to Mr Dewar that if proper regard for parliamentary protocol is not shown, and if there is not reasonable dissemination of information, this document is in grave danger of ending up a memorandum of misunderstanding. It will be a memorandum of misunderstanding because of the genuine paucity of opportunity to consider the content of the document. The Conservatives want the concordats to work—we want them to provide a reliable and stable framework for civilised liaison and a conduit of views. We want them to be a sound structure for determining what the administrative difficulties are.

We have genuine concerns, however. I find myself sharing common ground with Mr Neil— [Interruption.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C709425", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Goldie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 153.0, "ContributionID": 709425, "EditedText": "Someone seems to have come to life on the back benches. I share common ground with Mr Neil in that I feel that the Executive has shown contempt for Parliament in its decision to unveil the concordats at a press conference. If this Parliament is good enough for Mr McLeish to give a ministerial statement on Continental Tyres Ltd to, and if it is good enough for Mr McConnell to present his expenditure statement to, surely it is good enough for the First Minister to come to first to disclose and publicise the memorandum of understanding and the concordats.", "EditedTextHTML": "Someone seems to have come to life on the back benches.

I share common ground with Mr Neil in that I feel that the Executive has shown contempt for Parliament in its decision to unveil the concordats at a press conference. If this Parliament is good enough for Mr McLeish to give a ministerial statement on Continental Tyres Ltd to, and if it is good enough for Mr McConnell to present his expenditure statement to, surely it is good enough for the First Minister to come to first to disclose and publicise the memorandum of understanding and the concordats.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C709429", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Goldie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 161.0, "ContributionID": 709429, "EditedText": "Within the past 20 years, Mr Dewar, I am not aware that we have ever had to consider the regulation of relationships between two Parliaments in the United Kingdom. I thought that that was why this Parliament was an innovation—why it was an historic creation. That is why, Mr Dewar, this is unprecedented.", "EditedTextHTML": "Within the past 20 years, Mr Dewar, I am not aware that we have ever had to consider the regulation of relationships between two Parliaments in the United Kingdom. I thought that that was why this Parliament was an innovation—why it was an historic creation. That is why, Mr Dewar, this is unprecedented.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C709435", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Goldie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 173.0, "ContributionID": 709435, "EditedText": "The word riveting springs to mind.The Conservative party welcomes the spirit of the memorandum and goes so far as to applaud what has been produced. However, that in no way minimises the reservations and misgivings that I have expressed about the way in which the matter has been handled. We see no reason why this Parliament should not be party to the intended content of future additional concordats. That would be both helpful and healthy. In conclusion, I thank Mr Dewar for his contribution to this debate. The Executive will be tested on how it behaves and on what it does rather than on what it constantly says about transparency, visibility, honesty and all the rest. That test has not, as yet, been discharged. Applause.", "EditedTextHTML": "The word riveting springs to mind.

The Conservative party welcomes the spirit of the memorandum and goes so far as to applaud what has been produced. However, that in no way minimises the reservations and misgivings that I have expressed about the way in which the matter has been handled. We see no reason why this Parliament should not be party to the intended content of future additional concordats. That would be both helpful and healthy.

In conclusion, I thank Mr Dewar for his contribution to this debate. The Executive will be tested on how it behaves and on what it does rather than on what it constantly says about transparency, visibility, honesty and all the rest. That test has not, as yet, been discharged. [Applause.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C709439", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 182.0, "ContributionID": 709439, "EditedText": "As I said, the document concerns the relationship between the Executive in this Parliament and Executives in other Parliaments in the United Kingdom. Coming back to the role of the Secretary of State for Scotland—", "EditedTextHTML": "As I said, the document concerns the relationship between the Executive in this Parliament and Executives in other Parliaments in the United Kingdom.

Coming back to the role of the Secretary of State for Scotland—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C709445", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 194.0, "ContributionID": 709445, "EditedText": "The key issue is the UK policy position, which must reflect Scottish objectives.", "EditedTextHTML": "The key issue is the UK policy position, which must reflect Scottish objectives.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C709447", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 198.0, "ContributionID": 709447, "EditedText": "That is the answer to the question; the important thing is the way in which UK policy is formulated and developed. Let us not forget that the UK has 10 votes at the table—10 votes out of 87 and 10 votes that go towards a minority blocking position of 26. Compared with the voting power of some of the smaller nations that start with three votes, we have a significant and powerful position at the Council of Ministers.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is the answer to the question; the important thing is the way in which UK policy is formulated and developed. Let us not forget that the UK has 10 votes at the table—10 votes out of 87 and 10 votes that go towards a minority blocking position of 26. Compared with the voting power of some of the smaller nations that start with three votes, we have a significant and powerful position at the Council of Ministers.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1828E200P487C709448", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacDonald, Margo", "ID": 1828, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margo MacDonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms MacDonald: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 200.0, "ContributionID": 709448, "EditedText": "Will Mr Lyon give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr Lyon give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C709449", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 202.0, "ContributionID": 709449, "EditedText": "I have only four minutes and have already take two interceptions.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have only four minutes and have already take two interceptions.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1828E200P487C709450", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacDonald, Margo", "ID": 1828, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margo MacDonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms MacDonald: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 204.0, "ContributionID": 709450, "EditedText": "Interceptions? Laughter.", "EditedTextHTML": "Interceptions? [Laughter.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C709451", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 206.0, "ContributionID": 709451, "EditedText": "I have one more point about the relationship with Brussels. The UK representative office is the key organisation in Brussels for delivering UK policy, controlling the way in which we engage with the European Commission and with other countries. It is vital that Scotland House officials should be fully integrated into the UK representative office, and I would like the minister to detail how that relationship will work. Those who have been involved in the process believe that the political representation should have been based inside the UK representative office. That office is vital in delivering the views of the Scottish ministers and the UK policy position in Europe. The Scottish Liberal Democrats agree that it is sensible to set up a ministerial group to exchange information about inward investment. It is vital that, if various parts of the UK are bidding for big, mobile investment projects, there should be regular exchanges of information between them. We do not want a situation in which one part of the UK is played off against the other and we end up in a bidding war. That would benefit no one, least of all the taxpayer. Who is to decide on the assistance that Locate in Scotland should offer to such a mobile investment project? Once the concordats and the consultation process through the committee structure are working, and when Scottish ministers have full knowledge of which other areas of the UK are involved in bidding for a project, it is up to them to take a decision as to whether it is wise to up the bidding. If the Scottish ministers get it wrong, the Finance Committee and the Audit Committee will scrutinise the matter and call them to account. That is what devolved government is all about—taking decisions based on what is best for Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have one more point about the relationship with Brussels. The UK representative office is the key organisation in Brussels for delivering UK policy, controlling the way in which we engage with the European Commission and with other countries. It is vital that Scotland House officials should be fully integrated into the UK representative office, and I would like the minister to detail how that relationship will work. Those who have been involved in the process believe that the political representation should have been based inside the UK representative office. That office is vital in delivering the views of the Scottish ministers and the UK policy position in Europe.

The Scottish Liberal Democrats agree that it is sensible to set up a ministerial group to exchange information about inward investment. It is vital that, if various parts of the UK are bidding for big, mobile investment projects, there should be regular exchanges of information between them. We do not want a situation in which one part of the UK is played off against the other and we end up in a bidding war. That would benefit no one, least of all the taxpayer.

Who is to decide on the assistance that Locate in Scotland should offer to such a mobile investment project? Once the concordats and the consultation process through the committee structure are working, and when Scottish ministers have full knowledge of which other areas of the UK are involved in bidding for a project, it is up to them to take a decision as to whether it is wise to up the bidding. If the Scottish ministers get it wrong, the Finance Committee and the Audit Committee will scrutinise the matter and call them to account. That is what devolved government is all about—taking decisions based on what is best for Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1970E66P288C709458", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNulty, Des", "ID": 1970, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Clydebank and Milngavie" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Des McNulty", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Des McNulty: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 221.0, "ContributionID": 709458, "EditedText": "Mr Tosh's point is unreasonable. The committees on which I sit would find it difficult to do their work if they were in the position that he describes. Mr Tosh and I are both members of the Transport and the Environment Committee. If a transport issue were raised in the context of a concordat, we would not want it to be remitted to another committee dealing specifically with concordats; we would want to deal with it within our own remit. I suspect that members of other committees would take the same view. We must identify the best way of taking issues forward, whether in relation to inward investment or to any other matters that will come before the Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Tosh's point is unreasonable. The committees on which I sit would find it difficult to do their work if they were in the position that he describes. Mr Tosh and I are both members of the Transport and the Environment Committee. If a transport issue were raised in the context of a concordat, we would not want it to be remitted to another committee dealing specifically with concordats; we would want to deal with it within our own remit. I suspect that members of other committees would take the same view. We must identify the best way of taking issues forward, whether in relation to inward investment or to any other matters that will come before the Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709465", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 236.0, "ContributionID": 709465, "EditedText": "They are all up.", "EditedTextHTML": "They are all up.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1821E295P538C709468", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Mrs Margaret", "ID": 1821, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Moray" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 242.0, "ContributionID": 709468, "EditedText": "If Donald had listened to me, he would have heard me say that it should not have come as a surprise, because the phrase reflects the act. What Des McNulty and others have shown is a failure to realise that chains are being placed on the Parliament. How can we call ourselves a Parliament when there are constant references not to the members of the Scottish Parliament but to the Administration? How are we a genuine Parliament, when we see constant references to the role of officials and not to elected members? I am concerned that the Parliament is consistently down-banded throughout the memorandum. I note that the First Minister has left the chamber, but he does that regularly. He and I are old pals from Glasgow University, and we know how we feel about each other's views. How are we a genuine Parliament when we look at the demands in a European context? Section B3.14 states: \"That the role of Ministers and officials from the devolved administrations will be to support and advance the single negotiating line which they will have played a part in developing.\" Tell that to our fishermen, to our farmers, to our pensioners. We do not want a bit part in such discussions—the Parliament should have a leading role. Everyone in the Parliament today has a responsibility when they cast their vote to ask themselves: are we voting for democracy in Scotland or for the chains of Westminster that will bind us? I do not believe that the people of Scotland asked us to come here to be puppets of another organisation. The only consolation that I can find is in paragraph 28 on page 6, where it says, \"there may be a need from time to time for some adjustment to be made\". I give fair notice that adjustments will have to be made. They will be made through the democratic aspirations of the people. That is our responsibility—those who have sought election must repay the voters with the right to develop the democracy of Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "If Donald had listened to me, he would have heard me say that it should not have come as a surprise, because the phrase reflects the act. What Des McNulty and others have shown is a failure to realise that chains are being placed on the Parliament. How can we call ourselves a Parliament when there are constant references not to the members of the Scottish Parliament but to the Administration? How are we a genuine Parliament, when we see constant references to the role of officials and not to elected members? I am concerned that the Parliament is consistently down-banded throughout the memorandum.

I note that the First Minister has left the chamber, but he does that regularly. He and I are old pals from Glasgow University, and we know how we feel about each other's views. How are we a genuine Parliament when we look at the demands in a European context? Section B3.14 states:

\"That the role of Ministers and officials from the devolved administrations will be to support and advance the single negotiating line which they will have played a part in developing.\"

Tell that to our fishermen, to our farmers, to our pensioners. We do not want a bit part in such discussions—the Parliament should have a leading role. Everyone in the Parliament today has a responsibility when they cast their vote to ask themselves: are we voting for democracy in Scotland or for the chains of Westminster that will bind us? I do not believe that the people of Scotland asked us to come here to be puppets of another organisation. The only consolation that I can find is in paragraph 28 on page 6, where it says,

\"there may be a need from time to time for some adjustment to be made\".

I give fair notice that adjustments will have to be made. They will be made through the democratic aspirations of the people. That is our responsibility—those who have sought election must repay the voters with the right to develop the democracy of Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1770E82P108C709469", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Thomson, Elaine", "ID": 1770, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Thomson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Elaine Thomson (Aberdeen North) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 245.0, "ContributionID": 709469, "EditedText": "I welcome the memorandum of understanding, the agreement on the joint ministerial committee and the four multilateral concordats. Margaret Ewing and others have happily quoted from paragraph 13. I refer members to words later in that paragraph, stating that the UK Parliament \"would not normally legislate with regard to devolved matters except with the agreement of the devolved legislature.\" It clearly lays out the framework—", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the memorandum of understanding, the agreement on the joint ministerial committee and the four multilateral concordats. Margaret Ewing and others have happily quoted from paragraph

13. I refer members to words later in that paragraph, stating that the UK Parliament \"would not normally legislate with regard to devolved matters except with the agreement of the devolved legislature.\"

It clearly lays out the framework—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1770E82P108C709471", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Thomson, Elaine", "ID": 1770, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Thomson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Elaine Thomson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 249.0, "ContributionID": 709471, "EditedText": "Most people understand \"normal\" to mean usual practice. The memorandum and the concordats lay the basis for a good working relationship between the UK Government and the Parliament. We are in a new situation with a Scottish Parliament. For things to continue to work effectively when change happens always requires thought and discussion on the new working processes and how different organisations will communicate. That is laid out in the document, which sets out and underpins how the Parliaments will deal with each other at different levels, including ministers, the Parliament and civil service departments. It was always going to be the case that devolved matters would impact on reserved areas and vice versa. A mechanism must be in place to deal with that. UK bodies must have guidelines to help them deal with the new devolved bodies while continuing to work with Westminster. A number of clear principles underpin the memorandum and concordats: mutual respect, trust and confidence in each other. It is recognised that good communication is essential for effective working, that issues should be discussed in good time, that others' views need to be considered and suitable arrangements for joint working made.", "EditedTextHTML": "Most people understand \"normal\" to mean usual practice. The memorandum and the concordats lay the basis for a good working relationship between the UK Government and the Parliament. We are in a new

situation with a Scottish Parliament. For things to continue to work effectively when change happens always requires thought and discussion on the new working processes and how different organisations will communicate. That is laid out in the document, which sets out and underpins how the Parliaments will deal with each other at different levels, including ministers, the Parliament and civil service departments.

It was always going to be the case that devolved matters would impact on reserved areas and vice versa. A mechanism must be in place to deal with that. UK bodies must have guidelines to help them deal with the new devolved bodies while continuing to work with Westminster.

A number of clear principles underpin the memorandum and concordats: mutual respect, trust and confidence in each other. It is recognised that good communication is essential for effective working, that issues should be discussed in good time, that others' views need to be considered and suitable arrangements for joint working made.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1828E200P487C709472", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacDonald, Margo", "ID": 1828, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margo MacDonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms MacDonald: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 251.0, "ContributionID": 709472, "EditedText": "I very much agree with the notion of mutual respect in concordats—it is essential. Does the member agree with Alex Neil's suggestion of a rotating chairmanship of the ministerial council, with different lead ministers from the different Administrations within the British Isles?", "EditedTextHTML": "I very much agree with the notion of mutual respect in concordats—it is essential. Does the member agree with Alex Neil's suggestion of a rotating chairmanship of the ministerial council, with different lead ministers from the different Administrations within the British Isles?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1770E82P108C709473", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Thomson, Elaine", "ID": 1770, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Thomson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Elaine Thomson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 253.0, "ContributionID": 709473, "EditedText": "No, I do not.More can be achieved through co-operation, and the benefits of working together, where appropriate, will be greater. Also required for effective communication is free and open access to information, which is produced in a coherent, reliable and consistent manner. That must be one of the keys of better policy making. It makes sense that when statistical data, for example, are collected, they are collected once and then made available to everyone. In the areas that are covered by the concordats, it is vital that there is a clear understanding of how the concordats will operate and of the need for flexibility to operate effectively in fluid situations, for example, in negotiations with the European Union. UK policy objectives are best achieved through having a single, clear UK policy. These are working documents: they are not set in stone for ever. They are dynamic documents and will continue to change. The working relationship between the Parliaments will continue to change, and the concordats will change with that. The documents that we are discussing today provide a clear basis for working in the immediate future.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I do not.

More can be achieved through co-operation, and the benefits of working together, where appropriate, will be greater.

Also required for effective communication is free and open access to information, which is produced in a coherent, reliable and consistent manner. That must be one of the keys of better policy making. It makes sense that when statistical data, for example, are collected, they are collected once and then made available to everyone.

In the areas that are covered by the concordats, it is vital that there is a clear understanding of how the concordats will operate and of the need for flexibility to operate effectively in fluid situations, for example, in negotiations with the European Union. UK policy objectives are best achieved through having a single, clear UK policy.

These are working documents: they are not set in stone for ever. They are dynamic documents and will continue to change. The working relationship between the Parliaments will continue to change, and the concordats will change with that. The documents that we are discussing today provide a clear basis for working in the immediate future.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C709477", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bruce Crawford (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 263.0, "ContributionID": 709477, "EditedText": "Now we see the real unholy alliance in the chamber. The document is grandly entitled memorandum of understanding, but it is more like a memorandum of lack of understanding. The reality is that this document is about the UK Government's paranoia about the devolution settlement. The First Minister talked about suspicions. Yes, we are suspicious, Donald. We have every right to be: we have learned some hard lessons about the way Labour does its business. We will continue to be suspicious. The document says much about the internal fears and insecurities of the UK Government machinery, which is fed by Blair's well- documented centralist and control tendencies. It clearly exposes the fact that the current relationship between the Scottish Executive and the UK Government is in considerable difficulty. This is a contract for a marriage that is based on mistrust and the fear that the Scottish Executive might be tempted to play away from home. Let us examine the lack of understanding on European policy and Scotland's particular needs. Murray, those are areas in which legislation will be produced that affects this Parliament but on which we will have no say. In January 1997, Robin Cook was recorded as saying: \"Labour's plans for devolution will create a Minister for European affairs in a Scottish Administration\". The reality is different. We have no such minister and it is the intention of this memo to ensure that the Executive is involved only in EU policy matters for which responsibility has been devolved. Scotland's distinctive voice must be heard on matters outside the confines of the Scotland Act 1998. Scotland's distinctive voice must be heard on issues affecting the Europe of the future, such as enlargement of the Community, the single currency, European defence matters and aid provided to third-world countries. I would argue that all those areas touch on matters that fall within the Executive's remit. I will be grateful if the First Minister will confirm, during his winding-up, if the document refers to the Executive being able to touch on those matters.", "EditedTextHTML": "Now we see the real unholy alliance in the chamber.

The document is grandly entitled memorandum of understanding, but it is more like a memorandum of lack of understanding. The reality is that this document is about the UK Government's paranoia about the devolution settlement.

The First Minister talked about suspicions. Yes, we are suspicious, Donald. We have every right to be: we have learned some hard lessons about the way Labour does its business. We will continue to be suspicious.

The document says much about the internal fears and insecurities of the UK Government machinery, which is fed by Blair's well- documented centralist and control tendencies. It clearly exposes the fact that the current relationship between the Scottish Executive and the UK Government is in considerable difficulty. This is a contract for a marriage that is based on mistrust and the fear that the Scottish Executive might be tempted to play away from home.

Let us examine the lack of understanding on European policy and Scotland's particular needs. Murray, those are areas in which legislation will be produced that affects this Parliament but on which we will have no say.

In January 1997, Robin Cook was recorded as saying:

\"Labour's plans for devolution will create a Minister for European affairs in a Scottish Administration\".

The reality is different. We have no such minister and it is the intention of this memo to ensure that the Executive is involved only in EU policy matters for which responsibility has been devolved.

Scotland's distinctive voice must be heard on matters outside the confines of the Scotland Act 1998. Scotland's distinctive voice must be heard on issues affecting the Europe of the future, such as enlargement of the Community, the single currency, European defence matters and aid provided to third-world countries. I would argue that all those areas touch on matters that fall within the Executive's remit. I will be grateful if the

First Minister will confirm, during his winding-up, if the document refers to the Executive being able to touch on those matters.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C709479", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bruce Crawford: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 267.0, "ContributionID": 709479, "EditedText": "Mr Tosh has obviously not read the document, because it is about a contract between two Executives, not between the Parliaments. I am specifically referring to this document.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Tosh has obviously not read the document, because it is about a contract between two Executives, not between the Parliaments. I am specifically referring to this document.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C709483", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bruce Crawford: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 275.0, "ContributionID": 709483, "EditedText": "I will allow the First Minister to give me the assurance that this Parliament will be allowed to be involved in those discussions on the matters that I have outlined. We do not have to look far in this memo for the gagging orders and the control tendencies that expose the insecurities of the current UK Government. They are perhaps the most polite gagging orders that we will ever see. It says that the role of ministers and \"officials of the devolved administrations will be to support and advance the single UK negotiating line.\" Margo made a good point: under the cloak of mutual respect, the document talks of \"the confidentiality of those discussions and the adherence to the resultant UK line,\" That may be polite language, but the message is blunt and clear. When big issues come along and Scotland's needs differ from the rest of the UK, sit doon, keep quiet and dae whit ye're telt. Perhaps the First Minister will tell me, if this is not also ridiculous, the number of occasions on which Scotland has been allowed to take the lead on a substantive issue in the EU Council of Ministers. Thankfully, this memo has no legal foundation and it is not binding on future Executives. Otherwise, history would show it to be a document infamous in nature and working against the best interests of the Scottish people. Its saving grace is that it can be swept away when the electorate dumps the current Executive.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will allow the First Minister to give me the assurance that this Parliament will be allowed to be involved in those discussions on the matters that I have outlined.

We do not have to look far in this memo for the gagging orders and the control tendencies that expose the insecurities of the current UK Government. They are perhaps the most polite gagging orders that we will ever see. It says that the role of ministers and

\"officials of the devolved administrations will be to support and advance the single UK negotiating line.\"

Margo made a good point: under the cloak of mutual respect, the document talks of

\"the confidentiality of those discussions and the adherence to the resultant UK line,\"

That may be polite language, but the message is blunt and clear. When big issues come along and Scotland's needs differ from the rest of the UK, sit doon, keep quiet and dae whit ye're telt.

Perhaps the First Minister will tell me, if this is not also ridiculous, the number of occasions on which Scotland has been allowed to take the lead on a substantive issue in the EU Council of Ministers.

Thankfully, this memo has no legal foundation and it is not binding on future Executives. Otherwise, history would show it to be a document infamous in nature and working against the best interests of the Scottish people. Its saving grace is that it can be swept away when the electorate dumps the current Executive.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1762E216P508C709485", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Elder, Dorothy-Grace", "ID": 1762, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 280.0, "ContributionID": 709485, "EditedText": "Will Mr McAllion give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr McAllion give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1865E219P509C709487", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "White, Sandra", "ID": 1865, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sandra White", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Sandra White (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 284.0, "ContributionID": 709487, "EditedText": "Will Mr McAllion give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr McAllion give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2090E83P266C709488", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAllion, Mr John", "ID": 2090, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dundee East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John McAllion", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McAllion: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 286.0, "ContributionID": 709488, "EditedText": "No, I do not have time. I have sat and listened to the SNP all morning; maybe members will sit and listen to me for four minutes. Alex is very fond of talking about the Sunday Herald and its view on these matters, but it makes exactly the same mistake. I have the editorial in front of me. It talks about the Parliaments being bound to a concordat that was struck without their involvement. They are not concordats between the Parliaments; they are concordats between the Executives. Even the Executives are not under any legal obligation to abide by the decisions of the joint ministerial committee. They may well feel honour- bound to do so, but even if they do, the Scottish Executive is accountable to this Parliament for agreeing to those decisions and this Parliament is under no obligation to be bound by any agreement that has been struck in the joint ministerial committee. That is the way I like it. I do not want to be bound into a concordat that I played no part in bringing about. I am surprised at the SNP.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I do not have time. I have sat and listened to the SNP all morning; maybe members will sit and listen to me for four minutes.

Alex is very fond of talking about the Sunday Herald and its view on these matters, but it makes exactly the same mistake. I have the editorial in front of me. It talks about the Parliaments being bound to a concordat that was struck without their involvement. They are not concordats between the Parliaments; they are concordats between the Executives.

Even the Executives are not under any legal obligation to abide by the decisions of the joint ministerial committee. They may well feel honour- bound to do so, but even if they do, the Scottish Executive is accountable to this Parliament for agreeing to those decisions and this Parliament is under no obligation to be bound by any agreement that has been struck in the joint ministerial committee. That is the way I like it. I do not want to be bound into a concordat that I played no part in bringing about. I am surprised at the SNP.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C709493", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 296.0, "ContributionID": 709493, "EditedText": "Wind up, please.", "EditedTextHTML": "Wind up, please.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1762E216P508C709499", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Elder, Dorothy-Grace", "ID": 1762, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 310.0, "ContributionID": 709499, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1821E295P538C709500", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Mrs Margaret", "ID": 1821, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Moray" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 312.0, "ContributionID": 709500, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2029E47P167C709498", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Henry, Hugh", "ID": 2029, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Hugh Henry", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Hugh Henry: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 308.0, "ContributionID": 709498, "EditedText": "Alex Neil started off by saying that he was going to talk about the concordats and not about other issues. Very quickly, however, his mask slipped, along with that of others. Today we have heard a rant against the English, against Westminster and against everybody who does not share the Scottish National party's narrow perspective. It would have been more honourable for the SNP to propose a debate on independence, to take place in its allotted time. Let us have that debate on our differences, rather than use the concordats as an excuse for it.", "EditedTextHTML": "Alex Neil started off by saying that he was going to talk about the concordats and not about other issues. Very quickly, however, his mask slipped, along with that of others. Today we have heard a rant against the English, against Westminster and against everybody who does not share the Scottish National party's narrow perspective. It would have been more honourable for the SNP to propose a debate on independence, to take place in its allotted time. Let us have that debate on our differences, rather than use the concordats as an excuse for it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1762E216P508C709504", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Elder, Dorothy-Grace", "ID": 1762, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 320.0, "ContributionID": 709504, "EditedText": "It is what Tony Blair said.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is what Tony Blair said.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C709505", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 322.0, "ContributionID": 709505, "EditedText": "Please sit down, Ms Elder.", "EditedTextHTML": "Please sit down, Ms Elder.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2029E47P167C709506", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Henry, Hugh", "ID": 2029, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Hugh Henry", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Hugh Henry: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 324.0, "ContributionID": 709506, "EditedText": "Tony Blair does not believe that.If Alex Neil had something constructive to say, why this morning did he join the rant against the UK Government and the English, and why have we been subjected to paranoia and abuse that has nothing to do with this debate? Alex Neil talked dismissively of these concordats being prepared—", "EditedTextHTML": "Tony Blair does not believe that.

If Alex Neil had something constructive to say, why this morning did he join the rant against the UK Government and the English, and why have we been subjected to paranoia and abuse that has nothing to do with this debate? Alex Neil talked dismissively of these concordats being prepared—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1865E219P509C709508", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "White, Sandra", "ID": 1865, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sandra White", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms White rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 328.0, "ContributionID": 709508, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1821E295P538C709513", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Mrs Margaret", "ID": 1821, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Moray" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Ewing rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 338.0, "ContributionID": 709513, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2029E47P167C709514", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Henry, Hugh", "ID": 2029, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Hugh Henry", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Hugh Henry: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 340.0, "ContributionID": 709514, "EditedText": "I will not take an intervention because I have already taken two. The concordat is an agreement between the Administrations. This Parliament will hold the Executive to account and will scrutinise closely the work of Jack McConnell, Donald Dewar and others.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will not take an intervention because I have already taken two.

The concordat is an agreement between the Administrations. This Parliament will hold the Executive to account and will scrutinise closely the work of Jack McConnell, Donald Dewar and others.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2029E47P167C709516", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Henry, Hugh", "ID": 2029, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Hugh Henry", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Hugh Henry: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 344.0, "ContributionID": 709516, "EditedText": "No, John. I have taken two interventions and I hope I get some credit for that. We will hold ministers to account. The concordat says that the role of ministers and officials from the devolved Administrations will be to support and advance the single UK negotiating line. The emphasis in negotiations has to be on working as a UK team. That is what the SNP does not like. It does not like the fact that we are still part of the United Kingdom. Applause. I am glad that the SNP has acknowledged that. This morning, Alex Neil said that he was not going to concentrate on that and that he would concentrate on the concordats, but the SNP has gone back to its fundamental argument about divorce from the UK. Someone had to prepare the document. The UK Government prepared it and passed it to the Administrations to allow comments to be made. The Parliament now has the opportunity to comment on it. The proper process has been followed but the SNP does not like the fundamental premise on which the document is based.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, John. I have taken two interventions and I hope I get some credit for that.

We will hold ministers to account. The concordat says that the role of ministers and officials from the devolved Administrations will be to support and advance the single UK negotiating line. The emphasis in negotiations has to be on working as

a UK team. That is what the SNP does not like. It does not like the fact that we are still part of the United Kingdom. [Applause.]

I am glad that the SNP has acknowledged that. This morning, Alex Neil said that he was not going to concentrate on that and that he would concentrate on the concordats, but the SNP has gone back to its fundamental argument about divorce from the UK.

Someone had to prepare the document. The UK Government prepared it and passed it to the Administrations to allow comments to be made. The Parliament now has the opportunity to comment on it. The proper process has been followed but the SNP does not like the fundamental premise on which the document is based.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1751E163P286C709522", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Craigie, Cathie", "ID": 1751, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Cumbernauld and Kilsyth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Cathie Craigie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Cathie Craigie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 358.0, "ContributionID": 709522, "EditedText": "Presiding Officer, thank you for the opportunity to speak in today's debate. Much of what I wanted to say about the concordats has been covered by my Labour colleagues. However, I should have my say on a significant debate for the people of Scotland and the United Kingdom as a whole. The people of Scotland voted for a Scottish Parliament with powers to take decisions on issues that affect their everyday lives. They voted for a Parliament that would bring power closer to them. The majority of them voted in the Scottish elections for parties who would deliver them power as part of the United Kingdom. The memorandum of understanding establishes the principles that will ensure that relations with the UK Government and the other devolved Administrations give strength to our country. As has been stated this morning, the nationalists did not want the Parliament that the people of Scotland voted for. At the election, they even tried to hide their real identity and purposes from the people of Scotland. They tried—and still are trying—to put their nationalist views on the back burner. However, the people of Scotland know what the Scottish National party is about and rejected its argument. I remind Parliament—and particularly our nationalist friends in the Opposition—that the electorate rejected the nationalists' hallucinations of independence. Like nationalist movements that we have seen before, the SNP finds it hard to accept democratic decisions and is now trying to undermine the first democratically elected Scottish Parliament that this country has had. In his opening statement, the First Minister said that the nationalists appear to misunderstand the memorandum of understanding. I will be less kind than he was and, like many others today, suggest that they are deliberately trying to mislead the public, creating an argument to suggest that the memorandum of understanding is something that it is not. It is designed to ensure that the devolution settlement works, that the UK and devolved governments work in partnership and that the constitutional changes work for the people of Scotland. As Margaret Ewing said, it is a matter of democracy. I remind her that at the referendum—for which most of us campaigned—the people who voted knew that they were voting for a devolved Parliament as part of the United Kingdom.", "EditedTextHTML": "Presiding Officer, thank you for the opportunity to speak in today's debate. Much of what I wanted to say about the concordats has been covered by my Labour colleagues. However, I should have my say on a significant debate for the people of Scotland and the United Kingdom as a whole. The people of Scotland voted for a Scottish Parliament with powers to take decisions on issues that affect their everyday lives. They voted for a Parliament that would bring power closer to them. The majority of them voted in the Scottish elections for parties who would deliver them power as part of the United Kingdom.

The memorandum of understanding establishes the principles that will ensure that relations with the UK Government and the other devolved Administrations give strength to our country. As has been stated this morning, the nationalists did not want the Parliament that the people of Scotland voted for. At the election, they even tried to hide their real identity and purposes from the people of Scotland. They tried—and still are trying—to put their nationalist views on the back burner. However, the people of Scotland know what the Scottish National party is about and rejected its argument. I remind Parliament—and particularly our nationalist friends in the Opposition—that the electorate rejected the nationalists' hallucinations of independence.

Like nationalist movements that we have seen before, the SNP finds it hard to accept democratic decisions and is now trying to undermine the first democratically elected Scottish Parliament that this country has had. In his opening statement, the First Minister said that the nationalists appear to misunderstand the memorandum of understanding. I will be less kind than he was and, like many others today, suggest that they are deliberately trying to mislead the public, creating an argument to suggest that the memorandum of understanding is something that it is not. It is designed to ensure that the devolution settlement works, that the UK and devolved governments work in partnership and that the constitutional changes work for the people of Scotland. As Margaret Ewing said, it is a matter of democracy. I remind her that at the referendum—for which most of us campaigned—the people who voted knew that they were voting for a devolved Parliament as part of the United Kingdom.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1821E295P538C709523", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Mrs Margaret", "ID": 1821, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Moray" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Ewing rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 360.0, "ContributionID": 709523, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1751E163P286C709524", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Craigie, Cathie", "ID": 1751, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Cumbernauld and Kilsyth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Cathie Craigie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Cathie Craigie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 362.0, "ContributionID": 709524, "EditedText": "Margaret has bobbed up and down all day—she has had her opportunity. When the electorate came out in great numbers, they knew that they had voted to remain part of the United Kingdom. People voted overwhelmingly for parties that supported Scotland within the United Kingdom. It is a matter of democracy; the people of Scotland have had the democratic opportunity—through the ballot box—to say that they want to see Scotland as part of the United Kingdom. The nationalists were criticising the Labour Administration for not operating in a democratic manner. Many of them would not even be sitting here if the Labour Government had not extended the democratic process and allowed them to have seats in the Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "Margaret has bobbed up and down all day—she has had her opportunity.

When the electorate came out in great numbers, they knew that they had voted to remain part of the United Kingdom. People voted overwhelmingly for parties that supported Scotland within the United Kingdom. It is a matter of democracy; the people of Scotland have had the democratic opportunity—through the ballot box—to say that they want to see Scotland as part of the United Kingdom. The nationalists were criticising the Labour Administration for not operating in a democratic manner. Many of them would not even be sitting here if the Labour Government had not extended the democratic process and allowed them to have seats in the Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1865E219P509C709525", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "White, Sandra", "ID": 1865, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sandra White", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms White: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 364.0, "ContributionID": 709525, "EditedText": "Will you take an intervention?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will you take an intervention?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C709532", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 380.0, "ContributionID": 709532, "EditedText": "Competition for large mobile inward investment projects will not be controlled from the south. Adam used words that are not in the concordats. The secretariat will co-ordinate and the council for overseas promotion will oversee, not control.", "EditedTextHTML": "Competition for large mobile inward investment projects will not be controlled from the south. Adam used words that are not in the concordats. The secretariat will co-ordinate and the council for overseas promotion will oversee, not control.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C709537", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 390.0, "ContributionID": 709537, "EditedText": "Please wind up.", "EditedTextHTML": "Please wind up.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1882E175P456C709540", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ingram, Adam", "ID": 1882, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Adam Ingram", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Ingram: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 397.0, "ContributionID": 709540, "EditedText": "Is it not the case that both Lord James and Mr Raffan have served in another place? The question of bidding wars was raised in the report of the Trade and Industry Select Committee in December 1997. The committee concluded that claims about bidding wars were based on \"a great deal of hype and exaggeration based on figures of questionable validity.\" Does Lord James agree with that conclusion?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is it not the case that both Lord James and Mr Raffan have served in another place? The question of bidding wars was raised in the report of the Trade and Industry Select Committee in December 1997. The committee concluded that claims about bidding wars were based on

\"a great deal of hype and exaggeration based on figures of questionable validity.\"

Does Lord James agree with that conclusion?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2056E57P84C709543", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James", "ID": 2056, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "James Douglas-Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Lord James Douglas-Hamilton: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 403.0, "ContributionID": 709543, "EditedText": "I would have to study the terms of the report before coming to a conclusion on that point. I believe that the First Minister should be given a fuller role in the drafting of the concordat, because there could be a conflict between the line taken by the UK minister and that taken by the Scottish Executive. It is somewhat naive to assume that Scottish Executive officials would automatically owe their loyalty to the United Kingdom minister, because, quite frankly, in the event of such a dispute, I think that they would want last-minute changes to benefit Scotland. We have covered the issue of sovereignty; Margaret Ewing spoke about it. Before the establishment of the Scottish Parliament, the argument about devolution in Westminster was that the United Kingdom Parliament would be able to intervene at any time on any issue. To give an example, oil and gas are reserved matters, but uranium is not. If uranium and nuclear fuel were dealt with on a large scale in Scotland, matters relating to that would come under the Scottish Parliament. I suggest that it would be resented if the UK were to try to intervene in that. Concordats recognise the fact that the UK Government cannot readily intervene and should be reluctant to do so. We do not intend to vote against the motion, whatever our irritation that the concordats were not announced to Parliament, or our reservations about the wording. We think that the wording needs considerable improvement. Overall, concordats represent a sensible measure. We want to ensure that they work, in order to maintain fair and adequate relationships between Scotland and Whitehall under devolution. Concordats should receive full scrutiny, be changed where necessary and be reviewed periodically.", "EditedTextHTML": "I would have to study the terms of the report before coming to a conclusion on that point.

I believe that the First Minister should be given a fuller role in the drafting of the concordat, because there could be a conflict between the line taken by the UK minister and that taken by the Scottish Executive. It is somewhat naive to assume that Scottish Executive officials would automatically owe their loyalty to the United Kingdom minister, because, quite frankly, in the event of such a dispute, I think that they would want last-minute changes to benefit Scotland.

We have covered the issue of sovereignty; Margaret Ewing spoke about it. Before the establishment of the Scottish Parliament, the argument about devolution in Westminster was that the United Kingdom Parliament would be able to intervene at any time on any issue. To give an example, oil and gas are reserved matters, but uranium is not. If uranium and nuclear fuel were dealt with on a large scale in Scotland, matters relating to that would come under the Scottish Parliament. I suggest that it would be resented if the UK were to try to intervene in that. Concordats recognise the fact that the UK Government cannot readily intervene and should be reluctant to do so.

We do not intend to vote against the motion, whatever our irritation that the concordats were not announced to Parliament, or our reservations about the wording. We think that the wording needs considerable improvement. Overall, concordats represent a sensible measure. We want to ensure that they work, in order to maintain fair and adequate relationships between Scotland and Whitehall under devolution. Concordats should receive full scrutiny, be changed where necessary and be reviewed periodically.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C709545", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 408.0, "ContributionID": 709545, "EditedText": "Does Mr Swinney agree that the discourtesy was double in that the matter should have been the subject of a simultaneous statement in the House of Commons?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does Mr Swinney agree that the discourtesy was double in that the matter should have been the subject of a simultaneous statement in the House of Commons?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C709549", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice (Mr Jim Wallace): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 417.0, "ContributionID": 709549, "EditedText": "I am pleased to wind up this debate, which has, on the whole, been useful, although many of the predicted misapprehensions have been well aired, not least by SNP members. I will try to offer some reassurance and some explanations, although I am always conscious that there are none so deaf as those who do not want to hear. I will start by picking up a point about the announcement of the concordats. Much has been made about the press conference that the First Minister and the Secretary of State for Scotland gave on Friday morning. Much has also been made by Mr Swinney about parliamentary answers. Mr Swinney has no doubt read the parliamentary answer given to his colleague Richard Lochhead last Thursday. In question S1W-1772, Mr Lochhead asked the Executive whether it would publish any minutes taken during discussions on the memorandum of understanding and the concordats. The answer from Mr Dewar was: \"No, but the texts themselves will be made public tomorrow and will be subject to debate in the Parliament before they come into effect. Copies will be available for Members in the Document Supply Centre.\"—Official Report, Written Answers, 30 September 1999; Vol 2, p 158. That parliamentary answer intimated that the documents were to be published, and I am advised that the documents were available in the Parliament's information centre shortly before the press conference in Glasgow—indeed, they were available on the website by midday.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am pleased to wind up this debate, which has, on the whole, been useful, although many of the predicted misapprehensions have been well aired, not least by SNP members. I will try to offer some reassurance and some explanations, although I am always conscious that there are none so deaf as those who do not want to hear.

I will start by picking up a point about the announcement of the concordats. Much has been made about the press conference that the First Minister and the Secretary of State for Scotland gave on Friday morning. Much has also been made by Mr Swinney about parliamentary answers. Mr Swinney has no doubt read the parliamentary answer given to his colleague Richard Lochhead last Thursday. In question S1W-1772, Mr Lochhead asked the Executive whether it would publish any minutes taken during discussions on the memorandum of understanding and the concordats. The answer from Mr Dewar was:

\"No, but the texts themselves will be made public tomorrow and will be subject to debate in the Parliament before they come into effect. Copies will be available for Members in the Document Supply Centre.\"—[Official Report, Written Answers, 30 September 1999; Vol 2, p 158.]

That parliamentary answer intimated that the documents were to be published, and I am advised that the documents were available in the Parliament's information centre shortly before the press conference in Glasgow—indeed, they were available on the website by midday.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C709551", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 421.0, "ContributionID": 709551, "EditedText": "I note that—as happened when she sat down after her speech—Miss Goldie gets more applause from the SNP benches than she does from her own.", "EditedTextHTML": "I note that—as happened when she sat down after her speech—Miss Goldie gets more applause from the SNP benches than she does from her own.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1821E295P538C709556", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Mrs Margaret", "ID": 1821, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Moray" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Margaret Ewing rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 431.0, "ContributionID": 709556, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C709557", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 433.0, "ContributionID": 709557, "EditedText": "I will give way to Mrs Ewing in a moment. One of the most substantive issues raised in the debate concerned the legal position of the documents. There have been some helpful references to questions that I asked Mr McLeish in 1998. It was clear from the response that was given and from the very useful briefing from the Scottish Parliament information centre that the documents do not give any legal justiciable rights to people. However, it is not unheard of for documents that are essentially administrative to give rise to issues of judicial review. The documents that we are discussing, however, do not give any new legal rights. In speaking to the SNP amendment, Mr Alex Neil said that we were talking about being good neighbours. If that was good neighbourliness, heaven help us if we had bad neighbours. He quickly lost the plot as to the distinction between a devolution and an independence settlement. Almost without exception, every SNP member who spoke made precisely the same mistake. Mr Neil clung to a quote from the Sunday Herald. It reminded me of when I used to appear before the second division of the Court of Session; Lord Wheatley would lean over and say, \"And is that your best authority, Mr Wallace?\" It appears that Mr Neil's best authority is the Sunday Herald. He proceeded to reel off points on things such as housing benefit. If there are to be changes to housing benefit—a social security matter that is reserved to Westminster—which could, because of the different arrangements, impact on Scotland differently to the way in which they would impact on England and Wales, that is a good example of precisely why we want to have working arrangements, so that such information can be exchanged.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will give way to Mrs Ewing in a moment.

One of the most substantive issues raised in the debate concerned the legal position of the documents. There have been some helpful references to questions that I asked Mr McLeish in 1998. It was clear from the response that was given and from the very useful briefing from the Scottish Parliament information centre that the documents do not give any legal justiciable rights to people. However, it is not unheard of for documents that are essentially administrative to give rise to issues of judicial review. The documents that we are discussing, however, do not give any new legal rights.

In speaking to the SNP amendment, Mr Alex Neil said that we were talking about being good neighbours. If that was good neighbourliness, heaven help us if we had bad neighbours. He quickly lost the plot as to the distinction between a devolution and an independence settlement. Almost without exception, every SNP member who spoke made precisely the same mistake.

Mr Neil clung to a quote from the Sunday Herald. It reminded me of when I used to appear before the second division of the Court of Session; Lord Wheatley would lean over and say, \"And is that your best authority, Mr Wallace?\" It appears that Mr Neil's best authority is the Sunday Herald. He proceeded to reel off points on things such as housing benefit. If there are to be changes to housing benefit—a social security matter that is reserved to Westminster—which could, because of the different arrangements, impact on Scotland differently to the way in which they would impact on England and Wales, that is a good example of precisely why we want to have working arrangements, so that such information can be exchanged.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C709563", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 445.0, "ContributionID": 709563, "EditedText": "The very fact that we have a Parliament greatly enhances democracy in Scotland. One hears complaints that somehow or other the Executive had suddenly been imposed from above on an unwilling public. Unlike the Government in Westminster, this Executive has been elected by Parliament; it has legitimacy because it was elected by a democratic body that was elected by the people of Scotland. We as an Executive will be answerable to this Parliament, and in turn the Parliament will be answerable to the people of Scotland. That is how it should be. Mr John McAllion made a very clear point on the question of accountability. If—in the very unlikely event of a common line being adopted for a European fisheries policy—this Parliament was not happy with that common line, I do not imagine that Mr Richard Lochhead would be sitting on his hands when Mr John Home Robertson came back to report from the Council of Ministers. The way in which we discharge our responsibilities over a whole range of issues will be thoroughly scrutinised. Mr Bruce Crawford asked why there was no separate minister for European affairs. It is because Europe pervades all our actions. When Sarah Boyack goes to meetings of transport ministers or environment ministers, she is negotiating and taking a Scottish line within a common UK position. The Scottish Executive does not need a European minister. Ministers will come back to this Parliament and be accountable to it.", "EditedTextHTML": "The very fact that we have a Parliament greatly enhances democracy in Scotland. One hears complaints that somehow or other the Executive had suddenly been imposed from above on an unwilling public. Unlike the Government in Westminster, this Executive has been elected by Parliament; it has legitimacy because it was elected by a democratic body that was elected by the people of Scotland. We as an Executive will be answerable to this Parliament, and in turn the Parliament will be answerable to the people of Scotland. That is how it should be.

Mr John McAllion made a very clear point on the question of accountability. If—in the very unlikely event of a common line being adopted for a European fisheries policy—this Parliament was not happy with that common line, I do not imagine that Mr Richard Lochhead would be sitting on his hands when Mr John Home Robertson came back to report from the Council of Ministers. The way in

which we discharge our responsibilities over a whole range of issues will be thoroughly scrutinised.

Mr Bruce Crawford asked why there was no separate minister for European affairs. It is because Europe pervades all our actions. When Sarah Boyack goes to meetings of transport ministers or environment ministers, she is negotiating and taking a Scottish line within a common UK position. The Scottish Executive does not need a European minister. Ministers will come back to this Parliament and be accountable to it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709571", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26914, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 455.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 455.0, "ID": 26914, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 463.0, "ContributionID": 709571, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709573", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26914, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 455.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 455.0, "ID": 26914, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 465.0, "ContributionID": 709573, "EditedText": "Meeting adjourned at 12:25.", "EditedTextHTML": "Meeting adjourned at 12:25.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1950E155P451C709576", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26915, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 468.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26916, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 469.0, "QuestionHeading": "Free School Transport", "QuestionHeadingID": 26917, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 472.0, "DisplayOrder": 472.0, "ID": 26917, "ParentID": 26916 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Campbell, Colin", "ID": 1950, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Colin Campbell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "1. Colin Campbell (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 473.0, "ContributionID": 709576, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether any children have ceased to benefit from free school transport in Kilbarchan, Bridge of Weir and Erskine due to recent redefinition of routes to schools by Renfrewshire Council and, if so, how many. (S1O433)", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether any children have ceased to benefit from free school transport in Kilbarchan, Bridge of Weir and Erskine due to recent redefinition of routes to schools by Renfrewshire Council and, if so, how many. (S1O433)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2167E79P155C709579", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26915, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 468.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26916, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 469.0, "QuestionHeading": "Free School Transport", "QuestionHeadingID": 26917, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 472.0, "DisplayOrder": 472.0, "ID": 26917, "ParentID": 26916 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Peacock, Peter", "ID": 2167, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Peter Peacock", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Peter Peacock: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 479.0, "ContributionID": 709579, "EditedText": "Whatever the issue is about, it is certainly not money. Renfrewshire Council's expenditure on education has risen by more than 9 per cent in this year, moving from last year. I happen to know that Renfrewshire Council gives a high priority to children's safety, and there is no question but that if any child was travelling on an unsafe route, transport would be provided. I know from Trish Godman, who has been speaking to the council, that that is the proper place for the matter to be dealt with. We have to be careful not to usurp the council's powers through this Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "Whatever the issue is about, it is certainly not money. Renfrewshire Council's expenditure on education has risen by more than 9 per cent in this year, moving from last year. I happen to know that Renfrewshire Council gives a high priority to children's safety, and there is no question but that if any child was travelling on an unsafe route, transport would be provided.

I know from Trish Godman, who has been speaking to the council, that that is the proper place for the matter to be dealt with. We have to be careful not to usurp the council's powers through this Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C709581", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26915, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 468.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26916, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 469.0, "QuestionHeading": "Immunisation", "QuestionHeadingID": 26918, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 481.0, "DisplayOrder": 481.0, "ID": 26918, "ParentID": 26916 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 484.0, "ContributionID": 709581, "EditedText": "I assure Mr Quinan that the UK health department is making every effort to overcome the difficulties that are being experienced by the two manufacturers of UK- licensed vaccine. Supplies should resume in November, but it is not yet clear whether there will be enough vaccine to meet requirements. It is expected that vaccination will be available before children enter primary school next autumn.", "EditedTextHTML": "I assure Mr Quinan that the UK health department is making every effort to overcome the difficulties that are being experienced by the two manufacturers of UK- licensed vaccine. Supplies should resume in November, but it is not yet clear whether there will be enough vaccine to meet requirements. It is expected that vaccination will be available before children enter primary school next autumn.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2118E157P454C709582", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26915, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 468.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26916, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 469.0, "QuestionHeading": "Immunisation", "QuestionHeadingID": 26918, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 481.0, "DisplayOrder": 481.0, "ID": 26918, "ParentID": 26916 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Quinan, Mr Lloyd", "ID": 2118, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lloyd Quinan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Quinan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 486.0, "ContributionID": 709582, "EditedText": "I ask again: what number of children who will enter primary school next year does the Executive expect will not receive the injections they would normally receive? Please answer the question.", "EditedTextHTML": "I ask again: what number of children who will enter primary school next year does the Executive expect will not receive the injections they would normally receive? Please answer the question.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2207E94P262C709586", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26915, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 468.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26916, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 469.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secure Accommodation", "QuestionHeadingID": 26919, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 494.0, "DisplayOrder": 494.0, "ID": 26919, "ParentID": 26916 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Barrie, Scott", "ID": 2207, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dunfermline West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Scott Barrie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "3. Scott Barrie (Dunfermline West) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 495.0, "ContributionID": 709586, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has to review the number of secure accommodation places available in Scotland. (S1O-422) The Minister for Children and Education (Mr Sam Galbraith): We are continuing the review process that began with the work of the national planning group on care and education services for young people with behavioural problems. I expect to make a statement before the end of the year about the use of secure accommodation and its alternatives.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has to review the number of secure accommodation places available in Scotland. (S1O-422) The Minister for Children and Education (Mr Sam Galbraith): We are continuing the review process that began with the work of the national planning group on care and education services for young people with behavioural problems. I expect to make a statement before the end of the year about the use of secure accommodation and its alternatives.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2207E94P262C709587", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26915, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 468.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26916, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 469.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secure Accommodation", "QuestionHeadingID": 26919, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 494.0, "DisplayOrder": 494.0, "ID": 26919, "ParentID": 26916 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Barrie, Scott", "ID": 2207, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dunfermline West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Scott Barrie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Scott Barrie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 497.0, "ContributionID": 709587, "EditedText": "I thank the minister for that answer, and I will welcome the statement when it comes. Does the minister agree that we need to end the scandal of under-16-year-olds being held in an adult prison system, when better use might be made of the current secure accommodation?", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the minister for that answer, and I will welcome the statement when it comes. Does the minister agree that we need to end the scandal of under-16-year-olds being held in an adult prison system, when better use might be made of the current secure accommodation?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C709588", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26915, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 468.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26916, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 469.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secure Accommodation", "QuestionHeadingID": 26919, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 494.0, "DisplayOrder": 494.0, "ID": 26919, "ParentID": 26916 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Galbraith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 499.0, "ContributionID": 709588, "EditedText": "I agree that we do not want anyone inappropriately held in the prison system. There are 86 secure places in Scotland, which is double the number per head of population in England and Wales. A review group has been examining the matter and reporting to councils. We take the view that we need to develop alternatives to secure accommodation rather than increase the number of places. We are currently considering the alternatives, and I will make a statement on that towards the end of the year.", "EditedTextHTML": "I agree that we do not want anyone inappropriately held in the prison system.

There are 86 secure places in Scotland, which is double the number per head of population in England and Wales. A review group has been examining the matter and reporting to councils. We take the view that we need to develop alternatives to secure accommodation rather than increase the number of places. We are currently considering the alternatives, and I will make a statement on that towards the end of the year.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1781E188P474C709590", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26915, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 468.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26916, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 469.0, "QuestionHeading": "Health Boards and Trusts", "QuestionHeadingID": 26920, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 501.0, "DisplayOrder": 501.0, "ID": 26920, "ParentID": 26916 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McGugan, Irene", "ID": 1781, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Irene McGugan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Irene McGugan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 504.0, "ContributionID": 709590, "EditedText": "I thank the minister for that answer. There is considerable public concern about the future of Stracathro hospital, and the situation is so serious that it will now be considered by the Health and Community Care Committee. In view of that, is the minister satisfied with the fact that no meetings of Tayside University Hospitals NHS Trust were open to the public in the past four months—during which the controversial decisions on the hospital were made?", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the minister for that answer.

There is considerable public concern about the future of Stracathro hospital, and the situation is so serious that it will now be considered by the Health and Community Care Committee. In view of that, is the minister satisfied with the fact that no meetings of Tayside University Hospitals NHS Trust were open to the public in the past four months—during which the controversial decisions on the hospital were made?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C709592", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26915, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 468.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26916, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 469.0, "QuestionHeading": "Police", "QuestionHeadingID": 26921, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 508.0, "DisplayOrder": 508.0, "ID": 26921, "ParentID": 26916 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "5. Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 509.0, "ContributionID": 709592, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive how it intends to address the rising level of police ill health retirals as a consequence of injury on duty and stress- related illness. (S1O-434) The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice (Mr Jim Wallace): The situation is kept under review and is covered in HM chief inspector of constabulary's annual report. The information available from forces suggests that the number of police officers retiring on the ground of ill health, as a consequence of injury on duty and stress- related illness, has remained virtually unchanged over the past five years. I will arrange for a table giving the relevant information to be made available in the Scottish Parliament information centre.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive how it intends to address the rising level of police ill health retirals as a consequence of injury on duty and stress- related illness. (S1O-434) The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice (Mr Jim Wallace): The situation is kept under review and is covered in HM chief inspector of constabulary's annual report. The information available from forces suggests that the number of police officers retiring on the ground of ill health, as a consequence of injury on duty and stress- related illness, has remained virtually unchanged over the past five years. I will arrange for a table giving the relevant information to be made available in the Scottish Parliament information centre.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C709593", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26915, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 468.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26916, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 469.0, "QuestionHeading": "Police", "QuestionHeadingID": 26921, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 508.0, "DisplayOrder": 508.0, "ID": 26921, "ParentID": 26916 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 511.0, "ContributionID": 709593, "EditedText": "I thank the minister for his comments, but I must say to him—", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the minister for his comments, but I must say to him—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709594", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26915, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 468.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26916, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 469.0, "QuestionHeading": "Police", "QuestionHeadingID": 26921, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 508.0, "DisplayOrder": 508.0, "ID": 26921, "ParentID": 26916 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 513.0, "ContributionID": 709594, "EditedText": "Order. You must not say anything to him—you must ask a question.", "EditedTextHTML": "Order. You must not say anything to him—you must ask a question.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C709595", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26915, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 468.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26916, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 469.0, "QuestionHeading": "Police", "QuestionHeadingID": 26921, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 508.0, "DisplayOrder": 508.0, "ID": 26921, "ParentID": 26916 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 515.0, "ContributionID": 709595, "EditedText": "I ask the minister: if that is the case, why did his answer to a previous question indicate an increase in ill health retirals from 14 per cent to 20 per cent between 1995 and 1999? Similarly, why did he present figures that show an increase from 10 per cent to 19 per cent since 1994 in ill health retirals as a result of injuries sustained while on duty?", "EditedTextHTML": "I ask the minister: if that is the case, why did his answer to a previous question indicate an increase in ill health retirals from 14 per cent to 20 per cent between 1995 and 1999? Similarly, why did he present figures that show an increase from 10 per cent to 19 per cent since 1994 in ill health retirals as a result of injuries sustained while on duty?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C709597", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26915, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 468.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26916, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 469.0, "QuestionHeading": "Police", "QuestionHeadingID": 26921, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 508.0, "DisplayOrder": 508.0, "ID": 26921, "ParentID": 26916 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 519.0, "ContributionID": 709597, "EditedText": "It is not surprising that the proportion has fallen, given that the number of police officers has fallen. Last week the junior justice minister boasted of civilianisation.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is not surprising that the proportion has fallen, given that the number of police officers has fallen. Last week the junior justice minister boasted of civilianisation.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C709599", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26915, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 468.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26916, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 469.0, "QuestionHeading": "Police", "QuestionHeadingID": 26921, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 508.0, "DisplayOrder": 508.0, "ID": 26921, "ParentID": 26916 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 523.0, "ContributionID": 709599, "EditedText": "What is the effect of civilianisation on the retiral of police officers as a result of ill health, given that in the past many police officers in such circumstances were offered desk jobs?", "EditedTextHTML": "What is the effect of civilianisation on the retiral of police officers as a result of ill health, given that in the past many police officers in such circumstances were offered desk jobs?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2090E83P266C709608", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26915, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 468.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26916, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 469.0, "QuestionHeading": "Social Inclusion", "QuestionHeadingID": 26924, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 541.0, "DisplayOrder": 541.0, "ID": 26924, "ParentID": 26916 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAllion, Mr John", "ID": 2090, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dundee East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John McAllion", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McAllion: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 544.0, "ContributionID": 709608, "EditedText": "Does the minister accept that the problem with urban programme-type funding is that it is time-limited and usually runs out after three years, leaving many community-based organisations faced with a choice between going out of business and putting together a package of different types of funding that will keep them going for at most six months or another year? Given that those organisations are providing exactly the range of services that the Government says it supports, does the minister agree with the Scottish Council for Voluntary Organisations that three-year funding is no basis on which to provide those vital services, if we are to tackle poverty and social exclusion in Scotland?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the minister accept that the problem with urban programme-type funding is that it is time-limited and usually runs out after three years, leaving many community-based organisations faced with a choice between going out of business and putting together a package of different types of funding that will keep them going for at most six months or another year?

Given that those organisations are providing exactly the range of services that the Government says it supports, does the minister agree with the Scottish Council for Voluntary Organisations that three-year funding is no basis on which to provide those vital services, if we are to tackle poverty and social exclusion in Scotland?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709614", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26915, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 468.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26916, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 469.0, "QuestionHeading": "Social Inclusion", "QuestionHeadingID": 26924, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 541.0, "DisplayOrder": 541.0, "ID": 26924, "ParentID": 26916 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 556.0, "ContributionID": 709614, "EditedText": "Hear, hear.", "EditedTextHTML": "Hear, hear.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C709617", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26915, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 468.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26916, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 469.0, "QuestionHeading": "Social Inclusion", "QuestionHeadingID": 26924, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 541.0, "DisplayOrder": 541.0, "ID": 26924, "ParentID": 26916 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 562.0, "ContributionID": 709617, "EditedText": "Tommy always has difficulty in distinguishing between political struggle and industrial struggle. On his wider point about poverty, however, I remind him that this is the week in which 140,000 Scottish families will begin to benefit from the working families tax credit, which means that any family with an adult in full- time work will be guaranteed an income of £200 a week.", "EditedTextHTML": "Tommy always has difficulty in distinguishing between political struggle and industrial struggle. On his wider point about poverty, however, I remind him that this is the week in which 140,000 Scottish families will begin to benefit from the working families tax credit, which means that any family with an adult in full- time work will be guaranteed an income of £200 a week.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2152E53P75C709621", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26915, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 468.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26916, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 469.0, "QuestionHeading": "Telecommunications Masts", "QuestionHeadingID": 26925, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 568.0, "DisplayOrder": 568.0, "ID": 26925, "ParentID": 26916 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnston, Nick", "ID": 2152, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nick Johnston", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Johnston: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 571.0, "ContributionID": 709621, "EditedText": "What specific measures does the minister intend to pursue to ensure that, where possible, environmental impacts are minimised? Will the Executive introduce measures to insist that the four network companies, and Government bodies, co-operate to stop the proliferation of unnecessary masts?", "EditedTextHTML": "What specific measures does the minister intend to pursue to ensure that, where possible, environmental impacts are minimised? Will the Executive introduce measures to insist that the four network companies, and Government bodies, co-operate to stop the proliferation of unnecessary masts?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2010E221P512C709623", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26915, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 468.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26916, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 469.0, "QuestionHeading": "Street Lighting", "QuestionHeadingID": 26926, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 575.0, "DisplayOrder": 575.0, "ID": 26926, "ParentID": 26916 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Paterson, Gil", "ID": 2010, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Gil Paterson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "11. Mr Gil Paterson (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 576.0, "ContributionID": 709623, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what arrangements will be made for the provision of street lighting in the village of Longriggend following the proposed closure of Longriggend remand centre. (S1O-429)", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what arrangements will be made for the provision of street lighting in the village of Longriggend following the proposed closure of Longriggend remand centre. (S1O-429)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C709624", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26915, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 468.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26916, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 469.0, "QuestionHeading": "Street Lighting", "QuestionHeadingID": 26926, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 575.0, "DisplayOrder": 575.0, "ID": 26926, "ParentID": 26916 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice (Mr Jim Wallace): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 578.0, "ContributionID": 709624, "EditedText": "I understand that the street lighting that serves the former Prison Service quarters is a private system owned by the residents, who are responsible for maintenance. However, on a good-will basis, the remand centre has maintained the system and paid the electricity costs. The residents will collectively resume responsibility for those matters on the closure of the establishment.", "EditedTextHTML": "I understand that the street lighting that serves the former Prison Service quarters is a private system owned by the residents, who are responsible for maintenance. However, on a good-will basis, the remand centre has maintained the system and paid the electricity costs. The residents will collectively resume responsibility for those matters on the closure of the establishment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2010E221P512C709627", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26915, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 468.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26916, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 469.0, "QuestionHeading": "Street Lighting", "QuestionHeadingID": 26926, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 575.0, "DisplayOrder": 575.0, "ID": 26926, "ParentID": 26916 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Paterson, Gil", "ID": 2010, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Gil Paterson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Paterson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 584.0, "ContributionID": 709627, "EditedText": "Does the minister agree that when he was MP for the area, the late John Smith was very concerned that the roads in Longriggend were not adopted, and no help was given on that? Now the people of Longriggend will get a double whammy because street lighting will not be provided—it is ridiculous.", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the minister agree that when he was MP for the area, the late John Smith was very concerned that the roads in Longriggend were not adopted, and no help was given on that? Now the people of Longriggend will get a double whammy because street lighting will not be provided—it is ridiculous.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C709628", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26915, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 468.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26916, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 469.0, "QuestionHeading": "Street Lighting", "QuestionHeadingID": 26926, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 575.0, "DisplayOrder": 575.0, "ID": 26926, "ParentID": 26916 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 586.0, "ContributionID": 709628, "EditedText": "As I said, the obligation was taken on at the time of purchase and people would find it odd for the Prison Service, when it no longer has any connection with Longriggend, to be responsible for its street lighting.", "EditedTextHTML": "As I said, the obligation was taken on at the time of purchase and people would find it odd for the Prison Service, when it no longer has any connection with Longriggend, to be responsible for its street lighting.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709631", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26915, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 468.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26916, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 469.0, "QuestionHeading": "Foresterhill Laboratories", "QuestionHeadingID": 26927, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 588.0, "DisplayOrder": 588.0, "ID": 26927, "ParentID": 26916 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 593.0, "ContributionID": 709631, "EditedText": "If you can find a supplementary to that—", "EditedTextHTML": "If you can find a supplementary to that—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C709637", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26915, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 468.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26916, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 469.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meeting)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26929, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 606.0, "DisplayOrder": 606.0, "ID": 26929, "ParentID": 26916 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "14. Dennis Canavan (Falkirk West): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 607.0, "ContributionID": 709637, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what is on the agenda for the next meeting between the First Minister and the Secretary of State for Scotland. (S1O-414) The First Minister (Donald Dewar): Mr Canavan asked me the same question last week. I am always anxious to be helpful. Last week we discussed matters of mutual interest. Next week it will be matters of common concern.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what is on the agenda for the next meeting between the First Minister and the Secretary of State for Scotland. (S1O-414) The First Minister (Donald Dewar): Mr Canavan asked me the same question last week. I am always anxious to be helpful. Last week we discussed matters of mutual interest. Next week it will be matters of common concern.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6233244+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C709638", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26915, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 468.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26916, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 469.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meeting)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26929, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 606.0, "DisplayOrder": 606.0, "ID": 26929, "ParentID": 26916 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 609.0, "ContributionID": 709638, "EditedText": "Will the First Minister support the representations that I have made for Bonnybridge to be included in the assisted areas map? Is he aware that I wrote to the Secretary of State for Scotland about the matter on 12 August, 20 September and 29 September, but I have not had even the courtesy of an acknowledgement, never mind a reply? Possibly that is because he seems to be preoccupied these days with making life difficult for my good friend Donald.", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the First Minister support the representations that I have made for Bonnybridge to be included in the assisted areas map? Is he aware that I wrote to the Secretary of State for Scotland about the matter on 12 August, 20 September and 29 September, but I have not had even the courtesy of an acknowledgement, never mind a reply? Possibly that is because he seems to be preoccupied these days with making life difficult for my good friend Donald.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6233244+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2100E64P254C709642", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26915, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 468.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26916, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 469.0, "QuestionHeading": "Fishing Industry", "QuestionHeadingID": 26930, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 613.0, "DisplayOrder": 613.0, "ID": 26930, "ParentID": 26916 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Home Robertson, John", "ID": 2100, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Lothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "John Home Robertson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Home Robertson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 618.0, "ContributionID": 709642, "EditedText": "Ross Finnie has done exactly what he undertook to do in his response to the chamber on 3 June. If there were any significant concern in the fishing industry on the issue, as a constituency member of Parliament representing the south-east of Scotland and people living on the south-east coast, I would know about it. The fundamental point is that there must be a boundary line, because this Parliament has assumed responsibility for the waters adjacent to the Scottish coast—127,000 square miles. As we are not nationalists, we are working with our neighbours to ensure continuing access for Scottish fishermen to waters around the coasts of the United Kingdom. That is what matters to Scottish fishermen. I realise that Mr Lochhead thinks that he is on to a big issue, but he is following a dead fish.", "EditedTextHTML": "Ross Finnie has done exactly what he undertook to do in his response to the chamber on 3 June. If there were any significant concern in the fishing industry on the issue, as a constituency member of Parliament representing the south-east of Scotland and people living on the south-east coast, I would know about it. The fundamental point is that there must be a boundary line, because this Parliament has assumed responsibility for the waters adjacent to the Scottish coast—127,000 square miles.

As we are not nationalists, we are working with our neighbours to ensure continuing access for Scottish fishermen to waters around the coasts of the United Kingdom. That is what matters to Scottish fishermen. I realise that Mr Lochhead thinks that he is on to a big issue, but he is following a dead fish.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6233244+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709646", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26915, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 468.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26916, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 469.0, "QuestionHeading": "Fishing Industry", "QuestionHeadingID": 26930, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 613.0, "DisplayOrder": 613.0, "ID": 26930, "ParentID": 26916 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 626.0, "ContributionID": 709646, "EditedText": "We will take it at the end of questions.", "EditedTextHTML": "We will take it at the end of questions.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6233244+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1862E99P179C709648", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26915, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 468.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26916, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 469.0, "QuestionHeading": "Popular Music", "QuestionHeadingID": 26931, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 628.0, "DisplayOrder": 628.0, "ID": 26931, "ParentID": 26916 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Brankin, Rhona", "ID": 1862, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Midlothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Culture and Sport", "SpeakerName": "Rhona Brankin", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Culture and Sport (Rhona Brankin): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 631.0, "ContributionID": 709648, "EditedText": "The national cultural strategy will cover popular music. In planning how best to develop the industry, we will also be able to build on the study of rock and other popular music that the Scottish Arts Council has in progress.", "EditedTextHTML": "The national cultural strategy will cover popular music. In planning how best to develop the industry, we will also be able to build on the study of rock and other popular music that the Scottish Arts Council has in progress.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6233244+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1862E99P179C709650", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26915, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 468.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26916, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 469.0, "QuestionHeading": "Popular Music", "QuestionHeadingID": 26931, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 628.0, "DisplayOrder": 628.0, "ID": 26931, "ParentID": 26916 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Brankin, Rhona", "ID": 1862, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Midlothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Culture and Sport", "SpeakerName": "Rhona Brankin", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Rhona Brankin: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 635.0, "ContributionID": 709650, "EditedText": "I would be happy to have a meeting. We recognise the importance of the rock and pop industry to Scotland and we will examine Scottish Enterprise's work in that sector.", "EditedTextHTML": "I would be happy to have a meeting. We recognise the importance of the rock and pop industry to Scotland and we will examine Scottish Enterprise's work in that sector.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6233244+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C709652", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26933, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 640.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26934, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 641.0, "QuestionHeading": "Scottish Assigned Budget", "QuestionHeadingID": 26935, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 642.0, "DisplayOrder": 642.0, "ID": 26935, "ParentID": 26934 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "1. Bruce Crawford (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 643.0, "ContributionID": 709652, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what increases or decreases have been applied to the Scottish assigned budget since 1994 as a result of European structural funds allocated to Scotland. (S1O-430) The First Minister (Donald Dewar): None.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what increases or decreases have been applied to the Scottish assigned budget since 1994 as a result of European structural funds allocated to Scotland. (S1O-430) The First Minister (Donald Dewar): None.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6233244+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C709655", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26933, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 640.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26934, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 641.0, "QuestionHeading": "Scottish Assigned Budget", "QuestionHeadingID": 26935, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 642.0, "DisplayOrder": 642.0, "ID": 26935, "ParentID": 26934 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bruce Crawford: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 649.0, "ContributionID": 709655, "EditedText": "To clarify what the First Minister is saying, is he confirming that the much trumpeted, so-called special deal by Blair for the Highlands and Islands, and the soon to be announced structural funds, which I am sure will be trumpeted in the same way, will have no beneficial effect on overall spending levels in Scotland?", "EditedTextHTML": "To clarify what the First Minister is saying, is he confirming that the much trumpeted, so-called special deal by Blair for the Highlands and Islands, and the soon to be announced structural funds, which I am sure will be trumpeted in the same way, will have no beneficial effect on overall spending levels in Scotland?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6233244+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2029E47P167C709659", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26933, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 640.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26934, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 641.0, "QuestionHeading": "Scottish Assigned Budget", "QuestionHeadingID": 26935, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 642.0, "DisplayOrder": 642.0, "ID": 26935, "ParentID": 26934 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Henry, Hugh", "ID": 2029, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Hugh Henry", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Hugh Henry (Paisley South) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 657.0, "ContributionID": 709659, "EditedText": "Will the First Minister confirm what he alluded to, which continued the point that Jack McConnell made to the European Committee: irrespective of any cut in objective 2 funding, there will be no reduction in overall expenditure in Scotland? Can he also confirm, for our friends in the SNP, that that has always been the case with European funding and the block budget?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the First Minister confirm what he alluded to, which continued the point that Jack McConnell made to the European Committee: irrespective of any cut in objective 2 funding, there will be no reduction in overall expenditure in Scotland?

Can he also confirm, for our friends in the SNP, that that has always been the case with European funding and the block budget?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6233244+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C709662", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26933, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 640.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26934, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 641.0, "QuestionHeading": "Scottish Assigned Budget", "QuestionHeadingID": 26935, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 642.0, "DisplayOrder": 642.0, "ID": 26935, "ParentID": 26934 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 663.0, "ContributionID": 709662, "EditedText": "I do not accept that for a moment. I should remind Mr Wilson that on the assisted areas map—an important parallel objective—Scotland has 49 per cent coverage compared with something like 26 per cent for England. That is a good settlement for Scotland, given the GDP figures that I have just mentioned. We will shortly have the objective 2 settlement. At the moment, these are just plans that must be submitted to the European Commission. If they hold, we will lose coverage, but the same applies to every country in the European Union and every part of the United Kingdom. We ought to welcome and glory in our economic performance, rather than seeing it is a cause for sorrow. The fact that we have improved our comparative performance does not take away from the fact that we still do surprisingly well out of the final settlement.", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not accept that for a moment. I should remind Mr Wilson that on the assisted areas map—an important parallel objective—Scotland has 49 per cent coverage compared with something like 26 per cent for England. That is a good settlement for Scotland, given the GDP figures that I have just mentioned. We will shortly have the objective 2 settlement.

At the moment, these are just plans that must be submitted to the European Commission. If they hold, we will lose coverage, but the same applies to every country in the European Union and every part of the United Kingdom. We ought to welcome and glory in our economic performance, rather than seeing it is a cause for sorrow. The fact that we have improved our comparative performance does not take away from the fact that we still do surprisingly well out of the final settlement.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6233244+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C709666", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26933, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 640.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26934, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 641.0, "QuestionHeading": "Drugs", "QuestionHeadingID": 26936, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 665.0, "DisplayOrder": 665.0, "ID": 26936, "ParentID": 26934 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Goldie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 672.0, "ContributionID": 709666, "EditedText": "I thank the minister for that full response. Conservative members welcome those initiatives, which represent a significant step towards addressing the problem of drug misuse. Does the minister agree that it might send out a useful message to the audience beyond this chamber if the Executive considered appointing a minister with sole responsibility for dealing with drug abuse in Scotland? I make that suggestion in the belief that something rare might happen in this chamber. I suspect that there is total cross-party consensus about the fact that we as a Parliament want to be seen to be tackling what is probably one of the greatest threats to society in Scotland. Will the minister offer a visible and demonstrable sign of the Executive's resolve to provide a global strategy for addressing the problem?", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the minister for that full response. Conservative members welcome those initiatives, which represent a significant step towards addressing the problem of drug misuse.

Does the minister agree that it might send out a useful message to the audience beyond this chamber if the Executive considered appointing a minister with sole responsibility for dealing with drug abuse in Scotland? I make that suggestion in the belief that something rare might happen in this chamber. I suspect that there is total cross-party

consensus about the fact that we as a Parliament want to be seen to be tackling what is probably one of the greatest threats to society in Scotland. Will the minister offer a visible and demonstrable sign of the Executive's resolve to provide a global strategy for addressing the problem?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6233244+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C709668", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26933, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 640.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26934, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 641.0, "QuestionHeading": "Drugs", "QuestionHeadingID": 26936, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 665.0, "DisplayOrder": 665.0, "ID": 26936, "ParentID": 26934 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Goldie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 676.0, "ContributionID": 709668, "EditedText": "In no way do I wish to diminish what the minister has said. I do not want to create additional ministers—good heavens, they are breeding like chickens as far as I can see. I want to make improvements in the ministerial structure.", "EditedTextHTML": "In no way do I wish to diminish what the minister has said. I do not want to create additional ministers—good heavens, they are breeding like chickens as far as I can see. I want to make improvements in the ministerial structure.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6233244+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709671", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26933, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 640.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26934, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 641.0, "QuestionHeading": "Drugs", "QuestionHeadingID": 26936, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 665.0, "DisplayOrder": 665.0, "ID": 26936, "ParentID": 26934 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 682.0, "ContributionID": 709671, "EditedText": "I think that Mr McLetchie's views are becoming infectious on that bench.", "EditedTextHTML": "I think that Mr McLetchie's views are becoming infectious on that bench.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6233244+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C709678", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26933, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 640.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26934, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 641.0, "QuestionHeading": "Housing", "QuestionHeadingID": 26937, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 686.0, "DisplayOrder": 686.0, "ID": 26937, "ParentID": 26934 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 697.0, "ContributionID": 709678, "EditedText": "When the right-to-buy legislation was dramatically changed this year, councils were notified on 21 March—10 days before the change. Is 10 days sufficient time for councils to notify tenants of the huge losses of discount when buying council houses?", "EditedTextHTML": "

When the right-to-buy legislation was dramatically changed this year, councils were notified on 21 March—10 days before the change.

Is 10 days sufficient time for councils to notify tenants of the huge losses of discount when buying council houses?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6233244+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1878E208P502C709681", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26933, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 640.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26934, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 641.0, "QuestionHeading": "Housing", "QuestionHeadingID": 26937, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 686.0, "DisplayOrder": 686.0, "ID": 26937, "ParentID": 26934 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Dr Winnie", "ID": 1878, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Winnie Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Winnie Ewing (Highlands and Islands) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 703.0, "ContributionID": 709681, "EditedText": "Will the Presiding Officer give this Parliament any protection when a minister—the Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs—makes a misstatement of fact that is easily verifiable by all of us—", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the Presiding Officer give this Parliament any protection when a minister—the Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs—makes a misstatement of fact that is easily verifiable by all of us—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6233244+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C709694", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Railways", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26938, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 719.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 719.0, "ID": 26938, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Murray Tosh (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 731.0, "ContributionID": 709694, "EditedText": "I, too, welcome the minister's comments about this week's events near Paddington and her assurances that the lessons that are learned will be applied in Scotland. In terms of the statement, what appreciable differences in service delivery does the minister hope to bring about using the executive power to issue directions and guidance? Will Scottish Executive directions and guidance to the strategic rail authority be covered by a concordat with the UK Government? If so, when will it be issued? Will the minister undertake to consider, with an open mind, proposals from Fife Council and Scottish Enterprise for financial support for a freight marshalling yard at Rosyth, notwithstanding the very negative reaction given in yesterday's papers by her spokesman?", "EditedTextHTML": "I, too, welcome the minister's comments about this week's events near Paddington and her assurances that the lessons that are learned will be applied in Scotland.

In terms of the statement, what appreciable differences in service delivery does the minister hope to bring about using the executive power to issue directions and guidance? Will Scottish Executive directions and guidance to the strategic rail authority be covered by a concordat with the UK Government? If so, when will it be issued?

Will the minister undertake to consider, with an open mind, proposals from Fife Council and Scottish Enterprise for financial support for a freight marshalling yard at Rosyth, notwithstanding the very negative reaction given in yesterday's papers by her spokesman?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6233244+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1950E155P451C709708", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Railways", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26938, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 719.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 719.0, "ID": 26938, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Campbell, Colin", "ID": 1950, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Colin Campbell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Colin Campbell (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 759.0, "ContributionID": 709708, "EditedText": "On 9 September, my colleague Kenny MacAskill asked the minister: \"Does the minister support the Larkhall rail extension to the Haughhead junction, when will she authorise its construction and how will it be funded?\"—Official Report, 9 September 1999; Vol 2, c 335. The minister said that she would provide him with a written answer. Now that a month has elapsed, can she answer those questions?", "EditedTextHTML": "On 9 September, my colleague Kenny MacAskill asked the minister:

\"Does the minister support the Larkhall rail extension to the Haughhead junction, when will she authorise its construction and how will it be funded?\"—[Official Report, 9 September 1999; Vol 2, c 335.]

The minister said that she would provide him with a written answer. Now that a month has elapsed, can she answer those questions?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6233244+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1850E185P354C709712", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Railways", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26938, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 719.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 719.0, "ID": 26938, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Radcliffe, Nora", "ID": 1850, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Gordon" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nora Radcliffe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nora Radcliffe (Gordon) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 767.0, "ContributionID": 709712, "EditedText": "Performance indicators in the existing rail franchises tend to focus on journey times. Does the minister agree that, when negotiating the next round of franchises, more attention ought to be paid to attracting passengers and boosting passenger numbers? Following comments about overcrowding, I would say that concerns about comfort and convenience should also be taken into account.", "EditedTextHTML": "Performance indicators in the existing rail franchises tend to focus on journey times. Does the minister agree that, when negotiating the next round of franchises, more attention ought to be paid to attracting passengers and boosting passenger numbers? Following comments about overcrowding, I would say that concerns about comfort and convenience should also be taken into account.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6233244+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1962E35P56C709716", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Railways", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26938, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 719.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 719.0, "ID": 26938, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mundell, David", "ID": 1962, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Mundell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David Mundell (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 775.0, "ContributionID": 709716, "EditedText": "I wish to expand on what impact the minister's statement will have on the governance of cross- border services. As I have pointed out to the minister previously, although people are getting on trains in Lockerbie—as Dr Murray mentioned— and travelling to another location in Scotland, such services are technically cross-border, because they start in Carlisle, Berwick or elsewhere. Given what she has said today, can the minister say how those services will be governed until the strategic rail authority is operational? I think that the minister will accept that there is a legitimate concern that Borders stations might be left in a no-man's-land. People will assume that because they are going to and from Scottish destinations, the services are being dealt with solely by this Parliament, when in fact they are not.", "EditedTextHTML": "I wish to expand on what impact the minister's statement will have on the governance of cross- border services. As I have pointed out to the minister previously, although people are getting on trains in Lockerbie—as Dr Murray mentioned— and travelling to another location in Scotland, such services are technically cross-border, because they start in Carlisle, Berwick or elsewhere. Given what she has said today, can the minister say how those services will be governed until the strategic rail authority is operational?

I think that the minister will accept that there is a legitimate concern that Borders stations might be left in a no-man's-land. People will assume that because they are going to and from Scottish destinations, the services are being dealt with solely by this Parliament, when in fact they are not.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6233244+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C709719", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture (Agenda 2000)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26939, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 779.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 779.0, "ID": 26939, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Rural Affairs (Ross Finnie): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 783.0, "ContributionID": 709719, "EditedText": "I am pleased to have the opportunity today to address the chamber. In the time available, I will outline the steps that the Executive has taken and is proposing to take to create a more secure future for Scottish agriculture. There is no doubt that Scottish agriculture is in a serious situation. The difficulties encountered over the past two years are almost unprecedented. However, the Executive is working hard not only to alleviate the symptoms of the malaise, but to tackle the underlying causes. Some of the problems affecting our farmers cannot be resolved by any single Government. Economic problems in Russia and the far east, over-production of certain commodities in much of Europe and the weakness of the euro all add to the problems. Their resolution, however, is not entirely in the hands of this Parliament. Nevertheless, there are many things that can be done and that we have already begun to do. Turning first to the most immediate problems, I recently announced, in conjunction with other UK agriculture ministers, an assistance package worth £40 million for Scottish farmers. The package comprised £20 million for hard-pressed hill farmers and a further £20 million to offset some of the costs that the industry is facing as a result of the legacy of BSE, such as the costs of cattle passports and of controls on specified risk material, which have now been deferred until 2002. I also indicated that I was seeking the agreement of the European Commission to the introduction of a cull ewe scheme to help with the disposal of unwanted sheep. My officials had a final meeting with the Commission on Tuesday. I regret to say that it is now clear that there is no chance of the European Commission approving such a scheme. I am very disappointed. We have tried for several weeks to persuade the commissioners of our argument. I feel that it is important for me to convey the bad news to our sheep farmers now, so that they do not hold back ewes from the market in the hope of a scheme being introduced. I hope that sheep farmers will recognise that the £20 million increase in hill livestock compensatory allowances that we have been able to secure comprises a sizable contribution towards relieving the difficulties that they face. Next week, when I meet the European Union commissioner, Franz Fischler, I intend to draw his attention not only to the genuine problem of cast ewe disposal, but to the wider issue of what to do with unwanted and dead animals. I intend also to express my grave disappointment at the narrow way in which the regulations have been interpreted, which has prevented Scotland from benefiting from a cull ewe scheme. Turning to the medium term, I will deal first with the implementation of Agenda 2000. As members will know, the common agricultural policy has a powerful influence on the performance of Europe's farmers. In simple terms, it delivers almost £500 million of direct subsidy payments to Scottish farmers each year, which works out at around £23,500 for each average-sized farm. Clearly, therefore, any changes to the common agricultural policy must be handled carefully. The Executive has inherited a package of CAP reform measures that was agreed in March this year. The package consists largely of compulsory measures with a few optional items. The result is far from perfect—on occasion it drives farmers to operate in ways which are contrary to the needs of the market—but, overall, it provides a financial safety net for the next few years. There will be winners and losers, but our best forecast is that the compulsory elements of the reform package will, when fully implemented, provide a net additional £50 million across Scottish agriculture. The package has been particularly welcomed by our specialist beef producers, as it delivers extra support for suckler cows. In the beef sector, we forecast an increase in direct beef subsidies of £75 million, which may be offset partially by a fall in market price support. The overall result, however, will be more direct support for Scottish beef farmers. The picture for arable farmers is more mixed. There will be a 22 per cent increase in payment rates for cereals, offset by a reduction in rates for oilseeds. For dairy farmers, changes in the milk regime have been deferred until 2005-06. In regard to the optional measures, which have been widely consulted on, the key element has been the introduction of a new scheme for the less favoured areas, to replace the hill livestock compensatory allowance mechanism. I believe that I have proposed a groundbreaking mechanism—an approach to help hill and upland farmers. My objective is clear: to support and maintain sustainable farming in the Scottish countryside in a way that provides economic, social and environmental benefits, particularly where farming conditions are most severe. The scheme that I envisage will not only provide essential support for the most disadvantaged, but act as a useful model on which to develop longer- term support arrangements to underpin those who earn their living on our hills and uplands. Consideration is also being given to other measures to be operated under the new rural development regulation, which will be the successor to the various objective 1 and objective 5b structural fund schemes and on which wide- ranging discussions have already taken place. A sustainable future for Scottish agriculture ought also to include increasing focus on organic farming. I am keen to encourage farmers to convert to organic methods, which benefit the environment and the consumer. I am, therefore, delighted to announce that I have today signed a new regulation to increase organic aid scheme payments from this autumn. The regulation increases payment rates and maximum areas eligible from 300 to 1,000 hectares. These proposed increases would further encourage farmers to switch to organic methods and give a boost to the amount of organic produce on the shelves for consumers. While the money available is somewhat limited, I am satisfied that such marketing and processing can be contained within our financial arrangements.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am pleased to have the opportunity today to address the chamber. In the time available, I will outline the steps that the Executive has taken and is proposing to take to create a more secure future for Scottish agriculture.

There is no doubt that Scottish agriculture is in a serious situation. The difficulties encountered over the past two years are almost unprecedented. However, the Executive is working hard not only to alleviate the symptoms of the malaise, but to tackle the underlying causes.

Some of the problems affecting our farmers cannot be resolved by any single Government. Economic problems in Russia and the far east, over-production of certain commodities in much of Europe and the weakness of the euro all add to the problems. Their resolution, however, is not entirely in the hands of this Parliament.

Nevertheless, there are many things that can be done and that we have already begun to do. Turning first to the most immediate problems, I recently announced, in conjunction with other UK agriculture ministers, an assistance package worth £40 million for Scottish farmers. The package comprised £20 million for hard-pressed hill farmers and a further £20 million to offset some of the costs that the industry is facing as a result of the legacy of BSE, such as the costs of cattle passports and of controls on specified risk material, which have now been deferred until 2002.

I also indicated that I was seeking the agreement of the European Commission to the introduction of a cull ewe scheme to help with the disposal of unwanted sheep. My officials had a final meeting with the Commission on Tuesday. I regret to say that it is now clear that there is no chance of the European Commission approving such a scheme. I am very disappointed. We have tried for several weeks to persuade the commissioners of our argument.

I feel that it is important for me to convey the bad news to our sheep farmers now, so that they do not hold back ewes from the market in the hope of a scheme being introduced. I hope that sheep farmers will recognise that the £20 million increase in hill livestock compensatory allowances that we have been able to secure comprises a sizable contribution towards relieving the difficulties that they face.

Next week, when I meet the European Union commissioner, Franz Fischler, I intend to draw his attention not only to the genuine problem of cast ewe disposal, but to the wider issue of what to do with unwanted and dead animals. I intend also to express my grave disappointment at the narrow way in which the regulations have been interpreted, which has prevented Scotland from benefiting from a cull ewe scheme.

Turning to the medium term, I will deal first with the implementation of Agenda 2000. As members will know, the common agricultural policy has a powerful influence on the performance of Europe's farmers. In simple terms, it delivers almost £500 million of direct subsidy payments to Scottish farmers each year, which works out at around £23,500 for each average-sized farm. Clearly, therefore, any changes to the common agricultural policy must be handled carefully.

The Executive has inherited a package of CAP reform measures that was agreed in March this year. The package consists largely of compulsory measures with a few optional items. The result is far from perfect—on occasion it drives farmers to operate in ways which are contrary to the needs of the market—but, overall, it provides a financial safety net for the next few years.

There will be winners and losers, but our best forecast is that the compulsory elements of the reform package will, when fully implemented, provide a net additional £50 million across Scottish agriculture. The package has been particularly welcomed by our specialist beef producers, as it delivers extra support for suckler cows. In the beef sector, we forecast an increase in direct beef subsidies of £75 million, which may be offset partially by a fall in market price support. The overall result, however, will be more direct support for Scottish beef farmers.

The picture for arable farmers is more mixed. There will be a 22 per cent increase in payment rates for cereals, offset by a reduction in rates for oilseeds. For dairy farmers, changes in the milk regime have been deferred until 2005-06.

In regard to the optional measures, which have been widely consulted on, the key element has been the introduction of a new scheme for the less favoured areas, to replace the hill livestock compensatory allowance mechanism. I believe that I have proposed a groundbreaking mechanism—an approach to help hill and upland farmers. My objective is clear: to support and maintain sustainable farming in the Scottish countryside in a way that provides economic, social and environmental benefits, particularly

where farming conditions are most severe. The scheme that I envisage will not only provide essential support for the most disadvantaged, but act as a useful model on which to develop longer- term support arrangements to underpin those who earn their living on our hills and uplands.

Consideration is also being given to other measures to be operated under the new rural development regulation, which will be the successor to the various objective 1 and objective 5b structural fund schemes and on which wide- ranging discussions have already taken place.

A sustainable future for Scottish agriculture ought also to include increasing focus on organic farming. I am keen to encourage farmers to convert to organic methods, which benefit the environment and the consumer. I am, therefore, delighted to announce that I have today signed a new regulation to increase organic aid scheme payments from this autumn. The regulation increases payment rates and maximum areas eligible from 300 to 1,000 hectares. These proposed increases would further encourage farmers to switch to organic methods and give a boost to the amount of organic produce on the shelves for consumers. While the money available is somewhat limited, I am satisfied that such marketing and processing can be contained within our financial arrangements.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6233244+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1821E295P538C709720", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture (Agenda 2000)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26939, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 779.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 779.0, "ID": 26939, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Mrs Margaret", "ID": 1821, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Moray" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Margaret Ewing (Moray) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 785.0, "ContributionID": 709720, "EditedText": "Is it possible for the minister to give clear figures, as that would be helpful?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is it possible for the minister to give clear figures, as that would be helpful?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6233244+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1821E295P538C709722", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture (Agenda 2000)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26939, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 779.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 779.0, "ID": 26939, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Mrs Margaret", "ID": 1821, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Moray" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 789.0, "ContributionID": 709722, "EditedText": "Yes.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6233244+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C709723", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture (Agenda 2000)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26939, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 779.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 779.0, "ID": 26939, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ross Finnie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 791.0, "ContributionID": 709723, "EditedText": "I am sorry, but there are a number of details that are being announced in relation to the regulation. The actual amounts will bring us to a level almost the same as the level currently operated under the English scheme. The increase in area was, as I indicated, from 300 to 1,000 hectares, which is a substantial increase. I will move on to the longer term. The theme of longer-term sustainability is, perhaps, the more important part of what I have been trying to do in the agri-food business, that is, food companies that use Scottish agricultural produce. Earlier this year, I launched the Scottish Enterprise food strategy, an ambitious project to develop the Scottish food industry into a major asset for the Scottish economy. I am keen to support the project and I am determined that it should also be used to help the farming industry to become an integral part of the food industry. To put it quite simply, the Scottish industry must capture more of the added value in the food chain in Scotland if it is to prosper and it must move away from the commodity markets wherever possible. That will not be an easy task, but I hope that the enterprise strategy will provide an opportunity to move down that route. Central to that strategy is our determination to get Scottish beef back on the table abroad as well as at home. We all know about the high quality of beef, and I pay warm tribute to the efforts of our producers, processors and exporters in developing and sustaining that reputation. Next week, I will be strongly supporting our drive when I attend Anuga, the food fair in Cologne, and when I subsequently go to Brussels as part—", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry, but there are a number of details that are being announced in relation to the regulation. The actual amounts will bring us to a level almost the same as the level currently operated under the English scheme. The increase in area was, as I indicated, from 300 to 1,000 hectares, which is a substantial increase.

I will move on to the longer term. The theme of longer-term sustainability is, perhaps, the more important part of what I have been trying to do in the agri-food business, that is, food companies that use Scottish agricultural produce.

Earlier this year, I launched the Scottish Enterprise food strategy, an ambitious project to develop the Scottish food industry into a major asset for the Scottish economy. I am keen to support the project and I am determined that it should also be used to help the farming industry to become an integral part of the food industry. To put it quite simply, the Scottish industry must capture more of the added value in the food chain in Scotland if it is to prosper and it must move away from the commodity markets wherever possible. That will not be an easy task, but I hope that the enterprise strategy will provide an opportunity to move down that route.

Central to that strategy is our determination to get Scottish beef back on the table abroad as well as at home. We all know about the high quality of beef, and I pay warm tribute to the efforts of our producers, processors and exporters in developing and sustaining that reputation. Next week, I will be strongly supporting our drive when I attend Anuga, the food fair in Cologne, and when I subsequently go to Brussels as part—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6233244+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1906E278P355C709724", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture (Agenda 2000)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26939, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 779.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 779.0, "ID": 26939, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Welsh, Andrew", "ID": 1906, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Angus" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Welsh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Andrew Welsh (Angus) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 793.0, "ContributionID": 709724, "EditedText": "I share with the minister his disappointment at failing to get the EU to move on a cull ewe scheme. However, what progress is he making on decisions taken by the EU? How many meetings has he had with the French Government to persuade it to take Scottish beef, to end the ban on its imports and to press the Scottish case?", "EditedTextHTML": "I share with the minister his disappointment at failing to get the EU to move on a cull ewe scheme. However, what progress is he making on decisions taken by the EU? How many meetings has he had with the French Government to persuade it to take Scottish beef, to end the ban on its imports and to press the Scottish case?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6233244+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C709728", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture (Agenda 2000)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26939, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 779.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 779.0, "ID": 26939, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ross Finnie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 803.0, "ContributionID": 709728, "EditedText": "You would say that.", "EditedTextHTML": "You would say that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6233244+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1888E265P358C709726", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture (Agenda 2000)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26939, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 779.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 779.0, "ID": 26939, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morgan, Alasdair", "ID": 1888, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Galloway and Upper Nithsdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morgan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alasdair Morgan (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 798.0, "ContributionID": 709726, "EditedText": "I am very glad to speak in the Parliament's first debate on the agricultural industry. It is a shame that so little time has been allocated to this. MEMBERS: \"Hear, hear.\" The time certainly does not reflect the economic importance of the agricultural industry for Scotland. Although agriculture, in many ways, is out on its own—sui generis—in other ways it is very similar to, and suffers the same sort of pressures as, other industries in this country, particularly the manufacturing industry. In particular, I refer to the high, and rising, rates of fuel duty, particularly on diesel. That affects the cost of every agricultural input and output, often to a significant extent in rural Scotland. In addition, the high rate of sterling makes our agricultural exports—when we are allowed to make them—increasingly uncompetitive. On the other hand, by making food imports more attractive, it reduces the market for home sales even in the areas where we are trying to break into niche markets. The other side of the coin is relatively high interest rates, which have their own particular knife to twist in this industry. The industry is forced into increasing borrowing to make up for incomes that have often fallen to zero and below. In his summing-up, will the minister say whether he has had any discussions with the major banks about their policy towards agricultural borrowers, who face many difficulties? Many of the pressures that I have mentioned, such as taxation and currency levels, do not fall within the minister's direct remit as they are— currently, at any rate—reserved for Westminster. Whether it can influence its comrades south of the border on those issues will be a crucial test of the Executive's clout with them. All things being equal, some of those factors taken on their own might have been bearable for a while, but as the minister has acknowledged, all things have not been equal for some time. The UK Government might decide that its macro-economic strategy requires that it makes some hard choices—that is their favourite phrase—but let us be clear; even in the case of fuel duty, the decision is economic and is one that has precious little to do with environmental concerns in rural Scotland. We cannot escape the realisation that the Government's strategy will come at the expense of the health of certain areas of the economy and that Scottish agriculture will be one of those areas. It is essential that the Executive uses whatever muscle it has to influence the Chancellor of the Exchequer in his future decisions. I welcome at least one of the measures that were announced earlier this week. Ignoring the fact that consultancy is the fastest-growing industry in Scotland, we do need a regulatory review of the hugely complex array of regulations and the associated costs that accompany almost every agricultural activity. Those might individually have been justified at some time, but collectively they have become a bureaucratic nightmare. Farmers often joke that two vehicles are required when they sell a lorry-load of beasts: one for the beasts and one for the documentation. That is an exaggeration that is born of bitter experience. While I am sure the Government's intention in reviewing the situation is sound, we must wait to see what is delivered. On other issues, successive Governments have promised to reduce the burden of regulation but have been singularly unsuccessful in doing so. As recently as the last Westminster election Labour was promising a bonfire of the quangos. Postelection, we have seen little in the way of results. On the matter in hand, the time for discussion is very limited—it is now the time for action. I would like to turn briefly to the common agricultural policy, which is central to the future of Scottish agriculture. That is why it is mentioned specifically in our amendment. I am sorry that we do not have time to debate that in more detail. The CAP dwarfs the sums that are paid out in structural funds. In Dumfries and Galloway three times more per person is paid out through the CAP than is paid through structural funds. We spend lots of time talking about the structural funds but debates on the CAP tend to be the preserve of very few people, as is demonstrated in the chamber. The man or woman in the street is much more likely to know about Jubilee 2000 than they are to know about Agenda 2000. Nick Brown, the UK agriculture minister, gave some indication of the unsatisfactory and probably transitory nature of the new CAP. Ross Finnie alluded to that in May when he said that \"many of the commodity regimes may come under such pressure that they must be readdressed in this period\". The period to which he referred is that of the new CAP. In other words, because of pressures from the World Trade Organisation and from enlargement of the European Union, we will need to renegotiate the CAP before renegotiation is due. If that happens before the Scottish parliamentary elections, it will be a litmus test of the Executive's ability, or otherwise, to influence the course of EU deliberations. The Executive will be watched very closely by the Parliament in that. The minister should not underestimate his own powers or the powers of Scottish people negotiating in Europe. He should go to France and he should seek out meetings with his European and French colleagues to try to get the French to change their position. I am running out of time, so I will say in conclusion that if there is one thing this new Parliament can do, it can give long overdue attention to Scotland's agriculture and rural areas. They are important economically, socially and environmentally. Agriculture is too important to be discussed only by a minority of politicians, or only when things go wrong, and it is too important to be left to the farmers. It deserves the attention of us all. I move, as an amendment to motion S1M-185, in the name of Ross Finnie, to leave out from \"welcomes\" to end and insert: \"notes the vital role of agriculture for Scotland's rural communities; recognises that many of the factors causing the serious crisis in Scottish agriculture are outwith the control of the Scottish Executive, and calls upon the Executive to make representations to Her Majesty's Government on such matters as interest rates and the level of road fuel duty and to implement the Common Agricultural Policy (CAP) reforms in a way which best sustains rural communities.\"", "EditedTextHTML": "I am very glad to speak in the Parliament's first debate on the agricultural industry. It is a shame that so little time has been allocated to this. [MEMBERS: \"Hear, hear.\"] The time certainly does not reflect the economic importance of the agricultural industry for Scotland.

Although agriculture, in many ways, is out on its own—sui generis—in other ways it is very similar to, and suffers the same sort of pressures as, other industries in this country, particularly the manufacturing industry. In particular, I refer to the high, and rising, rates of fuel duty, particularly on diesel. That affects the cost of every agricultural input and output, often to a significant extent in rural Scotland.

In addition, the high rate of sterling makes our agricultural exports—when we are allowed to make them—increasingly uncompetitive. On the other hand, by making food imports more attractive, it reduces the market for home sales even in the areas where we are trying to break into niche markets.

The other side of the coin is relatively high interest rates, which have their own particular knife to twist in this industry. The industry is forced into increasing borrowing to make up for incomes that have often fallen to zero and below. In his summing-up, will the minister say whether he has had any discussions with the major banks about their policy towards agricultural borrowers, who face many difficulties?

Many of the pressures that I have mentioned, such as taxation and currency levels, do not fall within the minister's direct remit as they are— currently, at any rate—reserved for Westminster. Whether it can influence its comrades south of the border on those issues will be a crucial test of the Executive's clout with them.

All things being equal, some of those factors taken on their own might have been bearable for a while, but as the minister has acknowledged, all things have not been equal for some time. The UK Government might decide that its macro-economic strategy requires that it makes some hard choices—that is their favourite phrase—but let us be clear; even in the case of fuel duty, the decision is economic and is one that has precious little to do with environmental concerns in rural Scotland.

We cannot escape the realisation that the Government's strategy will come at the expense of the health of certain areas of the economy and that Scottish agriculture will be one of those areas. It is essential that the Executive uses whatever muscle it has to influence the Chancellor of the Exchequer in his future decisions.

I welcome at least one of the measures that were announced earlier this week. Ignoring the fact that consultancy is the fastest-growing industry in Scotland, we do need a regulatory review of the hugely complex array of regulations and the associated costs that accompany almost every agricultural activity. Those might individually have been justified at some time, but collectively they have become a bureaucratic nightmare.

Farmers often joke that two vehicles are required when they sell a lorry-load of beasts: one for the beasts and one for the documentation. That is an exaggeration that is born of bitter experience. While I am sure the Government's intention in reviewing the situation is sound, we must wait to see what is delivered.

On other issues, successive Governments have promised to reduce the burden of regulation but have been singularly unsuccessful in doing so. As recently as the last Westminster election Labour was promising a bonfire of the quangos. Postelection, we have seen little in the way of results. On the matter in hand, the time for discussion is very limited—it is now the time for action.

I would like to turn briefly to the common agricultural policy, which is central to the future of Scottish agriculture. That is why it is mentioned specifically in our amendment. I am sorry that we do not have time to debate that in more detail.

The CAP dwarfs the sums that are paid out in structural funds. In Dumfries and Galloway three times more per person is paid out through the CAP than is paid through structural funds. We spend lots of time talking about the structural funds but debates on the CAP tend to be the preserve of very few people, as is demonstrated in the chamber. The man or woman in the street is much more likely to know about Jubilee 2000 than they are to know about Agenda 2000.

Nick Brown, the UK agriculture minister, gave some indication of the unsatisfactory and probably transitory nature of the new CAP. Ross Finnie alluded to that in May when he said that

\"many of the commodity regimes may come under such pressure that they must be readdressed in this period\".

The period to which he referred is that of the new CAP. In other words, because of pressures from the World Trade Organisation and from enlargement of the European Union, we will need to renegotiate the CAP before renegotiation is due.

If that happens before the Scottish parliamentary elections, it will be a litmus test of the Executive's ability, or otherwise, to influence the course of EU deliberations. The Executive will be watched very closely by the Parliament in that. The minister should not underestimate his own powers or the powers of Scottish people negotiating in Europe. He should go to France and he should seek out meetings with his European and French colleagues to try to get the French to change their position.

I am running out of time, so I will say in conclusion that if there is one thing this new Parliament can do, it can give long overdue attention to Scotland's agriculture and rural areas. They are important economically, socially and environmentally. Agriculture is too important to be discussed only by a minority of politicians, or only when things go wrong, and it is too important to be left to the farmers. It deserves the attention of us all.

I move, as an amendment to motion S1M-185, in the name of Ross Finnie, to leave out from \"welcomes\" to end and insert:

\"notes the vital role of agriculture for Scotland's rural communities; recognises that many of the factors causing the serious crisis in Scottish agriculture are outwith the control of the Scottish Executive, and calls upon the Executive to make representations to Her Majesty's Government on such matters as interest rates and the level of road fuel duty and to implement the Common Agricultural Policy (CAP) reforms in a way which best sustains rural communities.\"

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6233244+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2140E187P335C709737", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture (Agenda 2000)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26939, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 779.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 779.0, "ID": 26939, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Rumbles, Mike", "ID": 2140, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Rumbles", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Rumbles: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 822.0, "ContributionID": 709737, "EditedText": "No, I get only half the time that Alasdair had. If I have time, I will give way. I am aghast at the cheek of the Tories in lodging their amendment, which \"calls for additional steps to be taken to reverse the continuing decline in . . . Scottish agriculture.\" The decline started in 1997, did it? It is a decline for which the Tories were hugely responsible in the first place. The BSE crisis caused devastation in rural communities. I would have thought that the Tories would keep a very low profile in the debate. It is clear that the Executive takes the problems that face our farmers seriously and is acting to address them. The two amendments are not worthy of our support. As a Liberal Democrat, I whole-heartedly welcome the Executive's support for Scottish farmers, and urge members to support the motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I get only half the time that Alasdair had. If I have time, I will give way.

I am aghast at the cheek of the Tories in lodging their amendment, which

\"calls for additional steps to be taken to reverse the continuing decline in . . . Scottish agriculture.\"

The decline started in 1997, did it? It is a decline for which the Tories were hugely responsible in the first place. The BSE crisis caused devastation

in rural communities. I would have thought that the Tories would keep a very low profile in the debate. It is clear that the Executive takes the problems that face our farmers seriously and is acting to address them.

The two amendments are not worthy of our support. As a Liberal Democrat, I whole-heartedly welcome the Executive's support for Scottish farmers, and urge members to support the motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6233244+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709765", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Lead Committees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26941, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 883.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 883.0, "ID": 26941, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 885.0, "ContributionID": 709765, "EditedText": "That the Parliament agrees the following designations of lead committees—", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament agrees the following designations of lead committees—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6233244+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1893E47P78C709727", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture (Agenda 2000)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26939, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 779.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 779.0, "ID": 26939, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnstone, Alex", "ID": 1893, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Johnstone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Johnstone (North-East Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 801.0, "ContributionID": 709727, "EditedText": "I begin by declaring an interest in this issue. As many members know, I am a farmer. Farming is an activity that, for varying reasons in recent years, I have conducted largely in a charitable capacity. That is why we find ourselves here today. The motion that has been proposed by Ross Finnie begins by asking the Parliament to welcome the Scottish Executive's support for Scottish farmers. I am not prepared to withdraw that part of the motion, which is why I deliberately kept it in. There is a great deal to be said for the way in which the Executive has supported Scottish farming in the short time during which it has been responsible for that. I must also say—and I have made no secret of this in the past—that I have tremendous respect for Ross Finnie and for the ability that he has brought to the role of Minister for Rural Affairs in this Parliament. Part of the reason for that is that, as members may remember, Ross Finnie's Welsh counterpart, when she was appointed, was the source of several jokes, largely because she was a vegetarian. There was an attempt by certain elements in Scotland to suggest disappointment that Ross Finnie—a man whose experience lay entirely outside the rural sphere—had been appointed to that important role. However, I would be the first to say that Ross Finnie has brought to that role an extraordinary ability to learn about the problems that the farming industry faces and to address himself to those problems. However, we cannot have too much praise. On the second half of the motion that Ross Finnie has proposed, which expects this Parliament to approve of the steps that have been taken to assist in creating a more sustainable future for Scottish agriculture, the jury is still very much out. The Conservatives have been laid open to quite a bit of criticism. The accusation—normally by my friend George Lyon—that the problems of the Scottish farming industry are entirely the fault of the previous Conservative Government is one that we have tried to deny, and I cannot allow it to pass at this point. There are few farmers in Scotland who would not happily swap their economic position today for their economic position in May 1997. The fact is that our industry has gone downhill quite convincingly since that year. Grain prices are down by 40 per cent; cattle and sheep prices are down by 20 per cent; milk prices are down by 30 per cent; and I was told yesterday that pigs have been losing money for 22 consecutive months. That is a record for which the Government that we had for the two years preceding the establishment of this Parliament was largely responsible, but for which the current Executive must be accountable to some extent. We must consider why that has happened, and I am not prepared to accept that it was all the fault of the previous Government.", "EditedTextHTML": "I begin by declaring an interest in this issue. As many members know, I am a farmer. Farming is an activity that, for varying reasons in recent years, I have conducted largely in a charitable capacity. That is why we find ourselves here today.

The motion that has been proposed by Ross Finnie begins by asking the Parliament to welcome the Scottish Executive's support for Scottish farmers. I am not prepared to withdraw that part of the motion, which is why I deliberately kept it in. There is a great deal to be said for the way in which the Executive has supported Scottish farming in the short time during which it has been responsible for that.

I must also say—and I have made no secret of this in the past—that I have tremendous respect for Ross Finnie and for the ability that he has brought to the role of Minister for Rural Affairs in this Parliament. Part of the reason for that is that, as members may remember, Ross Finnie's Welsh counterpart, when she was appointed, was the source of several jokes, largely because she was a vegetarian. There was an attempt by certain elements in Scotland to suggest disappointment that Ross Finnie—a man whose experience lay entirely outside the rural sphere—had been appointed to that important role. However, I would be the first to say that Ross Finnie has brought to

that role an extraordinary ability to learn about the problems that the farming industry faces and to address himself to those problems.

However, we cannot have too much praise. On the second half of the motion that Ross Finnie has proposed, which expects this Parliament to approve of the steps that have been taken to assist in creating a more sustainable future for Scottish agriculture, the jury is still very much out. The Conservatives have been laid open to quite a bit of criticism. The accusation—normally by my friend George Lyon—that the problems of the Scottish farming industry are entirely the fault of the previous Conservative Government is one that we have tried to deny, and I cannot allow it to pass at this point. There are few farmers in Scotland who would not happily swap their economic position today for their economic position in May 1997. The fact is that our industry has gone downhill quite convincingly since that year.

Grain prices are down by 40 per cent; cattle and sheep prices are down by 20 per cent; milk prices are down by 30 per cent; and I was told yesterday that pigs have been losing money for 22 consecutive months. That is a record for which the Government that we had for the two years preceding the establishment of this Parliament was largely responsible, but for which the current Executive must be accountable to some extent.

We must consider why that has happened, and I am not prepared to accept that it was all the fault of the previous Government.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6233244+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709767", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Lead Committees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26941, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 883.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 883.0, "ID": 26941, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 887.0, "ContributionID": 709767, "EditedText": "The Finance Committee to consider Part 1 of Stage 2 of the Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill;", "EditedTextHTML": "The Finance Committee to consider Part 1 of Stage 2 of the Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill;

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6233244+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2140E187P335C709735", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture (Agenda 2000)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26939, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 779.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 779.0, "ID": 26939, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Rumbles, Mike", "ID": 2140, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Rumbles", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Mike Rumbles (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 818.0, "ContributionID": 709735, "EditedText": "The farming industry is in dire straits. Never before have there been so many difficulties across the entire sector at the same time. When Jim Walker, president of the NFUS, came to the Rural Affairs Committee last month to give evidence to us about the crisis in the sheep industry, he rightly included the wider crises in the farming industry and in rural areas. I said to him then that I had first-hand experience of visiting dairy, beef, pig and sheep farmers in my constituency and that they are all in crisis. I asked him which sector he thought had the highest priority. His answer was: \"Rather than prioritising the sectors, we should prioritise the solutions so that we can make the best and the biggest difference in the shortest time.\" Mr Walker went on to confirm what many farmers in West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine have said to me: \"The farming industry is desperate for the chance to compete fairly and it has simply not been getting the chance.\"—Official Report, Rural Affairs Committee, 7 September 1999; c 53-54. One example of the costs is the £7-per-head cattle passport scheme that was about to be introduced as a result of strict public health measures designed to ensure consumer confidence in the industry—rightly so. However, many of our competitor countries pay for such public health costs from Government sources and do not lay them on the industry. It is clear that the Executive recognises that as a major cause of concern; it has ably argued for the postponement of the £7-per-head scheme to 2002. I welcome that, and I hope that it will never see the light of day. The partnership Government has identified the problems of Scottish agriculture and has taken direct steps, as the motion recognises, to assist in creating a more sustainable future for it. Ross Finnie, our Liberal Democrat Minister for Rural Affairs, who has had fulsome praise heaped upon him, lost no time in acting in support of our farming communities. A few weeks ago, he announced a £40 million assistance package to ease the burdens on farming. We have helped to secure the lifting of the beef export ban. There is a lot more to do, but we have achieved that. The compulsory elements of the common agricultural policy reform measures to which Ross referred will, when implemented, provide an additional £50 million in direct subsidies to Scottish farmers. Yesterday I was particularly pleased to hear Jack McConnell confirm, in answer to my intervention, that money would be allocated to introduce an independent appeals mechanism for farmers suffering penalties in relation to their EU subsidy claims. That measure is a direct result of the Liberal Democrat influence in the partnership agreement and will be welcomed by farmers. The SNP's amendment seeks to remove the focus from the good work that the Executive and Ross Finnie have been doing and to place it on matters for which Westminster MPs must argue. That is not exactly a productive or helpful approach for farmers.", "EditedTextHTML": "The farming industry is in dire straits. Never before have there been so many difficulties across the entire sector at the same time.

When Jim Walker, president of the NFUS, came to the Rural Affairs Committee last month to give evidence to us about the crisis in the sheep industry, he rightly included the wider crises in the farming industry and in rural areas. I said to him then that I had first-hand experience of visiting dairy, beef, pig and sheep farmers in my constituency and that they are all in crisis. I asked him which sector he thought had the highest priority. His answer was:

\"Rather than prioritising the sectors, we should prioritise the solutions so that we can make the best and the biggest difference in the shortest time.\"

Mr Walker went on to confirm what many farmers in West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine have said to me:

\"The farming industry is desperate for the chance to compete fairly and it has simply not been getting the chance.\"—[Official Report, Rural Affairs Committee, 7 September 1999; c 53-54.]

One example of the costs is the £7-per-head cattle passport scheme that was about to be introduced as a result of strict public health measures designed to ensure consumer confidence in the industry—rightly so. However, many of our competitor countries pay for such public health costs from Government sources and do not lay them on the industry. It is clear that the Executive recognises that as a major cause of concern; it has ably argued for the postponement of the £7-per-head scheme to 2002. I welcome that, and I hope that it will never see the light of day.

The partnership Government has identified the problems of Scottish agriculture and has taken direct steps, as the motion recognises, to assist in creating a more sustainable future for it. Ross Finnie, our Liberal Democrat Minister for Rural Affairs, who has had fulsome praise heaped upon him, lost no time in acting in support of our farming communities. A few weeks ago, he announced a £40 million assistance package to ease the burdens on farming. We have helped to secure the lifting of the beef export ban. There is a lot more to do, but we have achieved that. The compulsory elements of the common agricultural policy reform measures to which Ross referred will, when implemented, provide an additional £50 million in direct subsidies to Scottish farmers.

Yesterday I was particularly pleased to hear Jack McConnell confirm, in answer to my intervention, that money would be allocated to introduce an independent appeals mechanism for farmers suffering penalties in relation to their EU subsidy claims. That measure is a direct result of the Liberal Democrat influence in the partnership agreement and will be welcomed by farmers.

The SNP's amendment seeks to remove the focus from the good work that the Executive and Ross Finnie have been doing and to place it on matters for which Westminster MPs must argue. That is not exactly a productive or helpful approach for farmers.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1781E188P474C709739", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture (Agenda 2000)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26939, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 779.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 779.0, "ID": 26939, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McGugan, Irene", "ID": 1781, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Irene McGugan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Irene McGugan (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 828.0, "ContributionID": 709739, "EditedText": "I will talk about aspects of the issue that do not always have sufficient prominence in discussions on agriculture in Scotland: the environmental protection requirements and agri-environment measures. Today in Scotland we must manage the environment in a way which, crucially, will provide a living for food producers and will otherwise be of benefit to people and wildlife. In effect, support is needed for environmental projects on farms. For example, diffuse source pollution from agriculture is likely to be the primary source of river pollution by 2010 and is currently the biggest cause of water pollution outside urban areas. The Scottish Environment Protection Agency has regulatory powers to deal with point source agricultural pollution caused by slurry, silage and agricultural fuel oil. The ability of farmers to pay for the collection and storage facilities required by those regulations often limits the rate at which improvements can be achieved. Grants for that important aspect of pollution control could provide measurable benefits in environmental improvement. That brings us to cross-compliance. It is no secret that farmer and landowner representatives are not in favour of further cross-compliance. Cross-compliance offers environmental benefits, which should in any case underpin good farming practice. As implementation of that element of Agenda 2000 is a decision made by the individual member state, I urge the minister to ensure that initiatives that are implemented are relevant to Scotland and the situation that prevails here. He should take note of the farming industry and environmental interests. Scotland currently has about £15 million-worth of agri-environment spending. It should be noted that Ireland has about £100 million. Of the three schemes funded in Scotland, probably the most contentious has been the countryside premium scheme, which has been heavily oversubscribed, and by implication underfunded, since its implementation in 1996. It is intended that that scheme and the environmentally sensitive areas scheme will be merged. All farmers in Scotland will be able to apply to the rural stewardship scheme, but will have to compete for the limited resources available. The Executive plans no further consultation on that. Could that be because farmers, growers and crofters are keen to participate in larger-scale, better-funded programmes? I am pleased to hear of the minister's commitment to the third scheme, the organic aid scheme. It would have been difficult for him to ignore the fact that organic farming is the most buoyant sector in the agricultural industry, both in the UK and in Europe. In Europe, the momentum is generated not only by market demand, but by agri-environmental policy there; organic funding is a key element. If the growth rate continues, 30 per cent of agricultural land in Europe will be farmed organically by 2010. In Wales, there is a plan for converting to 10 per cent organic by 2005, which has gained widespread support from the Welsh Assembly and the farming community. Farmers in Wales receive one and a half days of conversion advice, while in Scotland there is access only to telephone advice services. The organic aid scheme in Scotland is badly organised. For example, when farmers apply, there is only a small window of opportunity for conversion start-up, between August and October. What justifiable agricultural reason is there for that? There is concern that the organic aid scheme will continue to be underfunded. Until we know the figures from the minister, set against the interest in conversion, that will remain unresolved. A fear is that it might be designated as a discretionary scheme. Scotland is ideally placed to promote a huge expansion in organic farming. Among its many positive attributes, organic farming assists moves towards economically sustainable agriculture. We must have a much stronger line from the Government on genetically modified organisms. Farms that have spent time and energy securing their organic certification could have it revoked immediately should there be any contamination from nearby GM crop trials. The possible gene contamination of organic crops, the effects on plant life and the problems for consumer choice are a matter for another debate. More research is needed to examine the potential impact of GMOs on organic farming. It would be good to have a commitment from the Executive that that matter will be sympathetically addressed.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will talk about aspects of the issue that do not always have sufficient prominence in discussions on agriculture in Scotland: the environmental protection requirements and agri-environment measures. Today in Scotland we must manage the environment in a way which, crucially, will provide a living for food producers and will otherwise be of benefit to people and wildlife. In effect, support is needed for environmental projects on farms.

For example, diffuse source pollution from agriculture is likely to be the primary source of river pollution by 2010 and is currently the biggest cause of water pollution outside urban areas. The Scottish Environment Protection Agency has regulatory powers to deal with point source agricultural pollution caused by slurry, silage and

agricultural fuel oil. The ability of farmers to pay for the collection and storage facilities required by those regulations often limits the rate at which improvements can be achieved. Grants for that important aspect of pollution control could provide measurable benefits in environmental improvement.

That brings us to cross-compliance. It is no secret that farmer and landowner representatives are not in favour of further cross-compliance. Cross-compliance offers environmental benefits, which should in any case underpin good farming practice. As implementation of that element of Agenda 2000 is a decision made by the individual member state, I urge the minister to ensure that initiatives that are implemented are relevant to Scotland and the situation that prevails here. He should take note of the farming industry and environmental interests. Scotland currently has about £15 million-worth of agri-environment spending. It should be noted that Ireland has about £100 million.

Of the three schemes funded in Scotland, probably the most contentious has been the countryside premium scheme, which has been heavily oversubscribed, and by implication underfunded, since its implementation in 1996. It is intended that that scheme and the environmentally sensitive areas scheme will be merged. All farmers in Scotland will be able to apply to the rural stewardship scheme, but will have to compete for the limited resources available. The Executive plans no further consultation on that. Could that be because farmers, growers and crofters are keen to participate in larger-scale, better-funded programmes? I am pleased to hear of the minister's commitment to the third scheme, the organic aid scheme. It would have been difficult for him to ignore the fact that organic farming is the most buoyant sector in the agricultural industry, both in the UK and in Europe. In Europe, the momentum is generated not only by market demand, but by agri-environmental policy there; organic funding is a key element. If the growth rate continues, 30 per cent of agricultural land in Europe will be farmed organically by 2010.

In Wales, there is a plan for converting to 10 per cent organic by 2005, which has gained widespread support from the Welsh Assembly and the farming community. Farmers in Wales receive one and a half days of conversion advice, while in Scotland there is access only to telephone advice services. The organic aid scheme in Scotland is badly organised. For example, when farmers apply, there is only a small window of opportunity for conversion start-up, between August and October. What justifiable agricultural reason is there for that?

There is concern that the organic aid scheme will continue to be underfunded. Until we know the figures from the minister, set against the interest in conversion, that will remain unresolved. A fear is that it might be designated as a discretionary scheme. Scotland is ideally placed to promote a huge expansion in organic farming. Among its many positive attributes, organic farming assists moves towards economically sustainable agriculture.

We must have a much stronger line from the Government on genetically modified organisms. Farms that have spent time and energy securing their organic certification could have it revoked immediately should there be any contamination from nearby GM crop trials. The possible gene contamination of organic crops, the effects on plant life and the problems for consumer choice are a matter for another debate. More research is needed to examine the potential impact of GMOs on organic farming. It would be good to have a commitment from the Executive that that matter will be sympathetically addressed.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1821E295P538C709751", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture (Agenda 2000)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26939, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 779.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 779.0, "ID": 26939, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Mrs Margaret", "ID": 1821, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Moray" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 856.0, "ContributionID": 709751, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2066E64P88C709744", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture (Agenda 2000)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26939, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 779.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 779.0, "ID": 26939, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McGrigor, Jamie", "ID": 2066, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie McGrigor", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Jamie McGrigor (Highlands and Islands) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 840.0, "ContributionID": 709744, "EditedText": "Thank you, Presiding Officer. In deference to you and to Mr Ross Finnie—and before I am accused of ignoring protocol in this Parliament—I must explain that it is critical to my contribution to use the word ewe. I have recently been to markets in the Highlands and Islands for the Autumn store lamb and cast ewe sales. I have watched with horror the expressions of men and women as their livelihoods go down the drain. The price of lamb might have hardened slightly, but it is still half what it was three years ago. The price of cast correct ewes, which would previously have been upwards of £30, has fallen to less than a fiver. The feeding ewes, which one would expect to trade at between £10 and £20, are worthless. I saw one lot of 40 good feeding sheep go for £2. That is 5p per head—a drop of 99.66 per cent. That is just one example of the crisis in Scottish agriculture, which is in a worse state than it has been at any time in living memory. In Scotland, the agriculture sector employs 69,000 people directly and 200,000 indirectly. Most of those jobs are in rural communities and sustain rural populations. The Scottish tourism industry is worth about £2.7 billion a year and there is no doubt that farming shapes and manages much of the world- famous culture and environment that attracts people to spend that money here. The crisis in Scotland is three times as bad as it is in Europe. One of the main reasons for that is the ridiculously high price of fuel. Admittedly, red diesel can be used in tractors, but the reality of transporting animals and people in remote areas is that any so-called new money in support of Highland agriculture is absorbed by continual hikes in the cost of fuel. Since Labour came to power, farm incomes have fallen by three quarters. Within the UK, more than 2,000 dairy farmers have gone bust, the pig herd has fallen by more than 1 million and numerous slaughterhouses have been forced to close. The Scottish beef industry, which used to be famous for having the finest product in the world, is being held back by the ludicrous ban on beef on the bone, even though the Donaldson report recommended lifting it and the Spongiform Encephalopathy Advisory Committee said that the chances of being struck down with Creutzfeldt- Jakob disease owing to consumption of beef on the bone was less than the chances of being struck by lightning or hit by a meteorite.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you, Presiding Officer. In deference to you and to Mr Ross Finnie—and before I am accused of ignoring protocol in this Parliament—I must explain that it is critical to my contribution to use the word ewe.

I have recently been to markets in the Highlands and Islands for the Autumn store lamb and cast ewe sales. I have watched with horror the expressions of men and women as their livelihoods go down the drain. The price of lamb might have hardened slightly, but it is still half what it was three years ago.

The price of cast correct ewes, which would previously have been upwards of £30, has fallen to less than a fiver. The feeding ewes, which one would expect to trade at between £10 and £20, are worthless. I saw one lot of 40 good feeding sheep go for £2. That is 5p per head—a drop of

99.66 per cent. That is just one example of the crisis in Scottish agriculture, which is in a worse state than it has been at any time in living memory. In Scotland, the agriculture sector employs 69,000 people directly and 200,000 indirectly. Most of those jobs are in rural communities and sustain rural populations.

The Scottish tourism industry is worth about £2.7 billion a year and there is no doubt that farming shapes and manages much of the world- famous culture and environment that attracts people to spend that money here.

The crisis in Scotland is three times as bad as it is in Europe. One of the main reasons for that is the ridiculously high price of fuel. Admittedly, red diesel can be used in tractors, but the reality of transporting animals and people in remote areas is that any so-called new money in support of Highland agriculture is absorbed by continual hikes in the cost of fuel. Since Labour came to

power, farm incomes have fallen by three quarters. Within the UK, more than 2,000 dairy farmers have gone bust, the pig herd has fallen by more than 1 million and numerous slaughterhouses have been forced to close.

The Scottish beef industry, which used to be famous for having the finest product in the world, is being held back by the ludicrous ban on beef on the bone, even though the Donaldson report recommended lifting it and the Spongiform Encephalopathy Advisory Committee said that the chances of being struck down with Creutzfeldt- Jakob disease owing to consumption of beef on the bone was less than the chances of being struck by lightning or hit by a meteorite.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709762", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Standards Committee", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26940, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 880.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 880.0, "ID": 26940, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 881.0, "ContributionID": 709762, "EditedText": "Motion moved,", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion moved,

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C709748", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture (Agenda 2000)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26939, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 779.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 779.0, "ID": 26939, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr David Davidson (North-East Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 850.0, "ContributionID": 709748, "EditedText": "I begin with a declaration of interest. I am the third practising farmer to speak on behalf of the Conservatives today. As I have interests in beef, I was encouraged to hear comments about the quality of the beef that we produce in Scotland. The motion asks that we congratulate the Executive, as though the job was done and dusted and Scottish agriculture and our rural economy were back on their feet. I am sure that that is not what Mr Finnie intended when the motion was lodged. As we heard this afternoon, the job is merely beginning. I am sure that he, above all others, realises that there are problems—we have heard graphic descriptions of them—in every sector of Scottish agriculture. When I started my notes, I wrote down the words cast ewes. I was pleased to hear that Mr Finnie was going to take on Mr Fischler. Like Mr Finnie, I was disappointed that there is no scheme—I raised that with the minister some weeks ago. To allow Mr Finnie better to illustrate the problem when he next meets Mr Fischler, I will happily lend him my Land Rover and a trailer full of cull ewes so that he can ask Mr Fischler what he should do with them. It is a huge problem— environmental as well as financial. Because of the impact on the environment and the water supply and so on, we cannot just kill animals and bury them anywhere. I desperately feel that, if nothing else can be done, a scheme to uplift animals from farms and dispose of them free of charge is probably the best way forward. Mr Finnie suggested that people should get their cast ewes into the marketplace, but there is no point in doing that as there is no market to take them to. Last week, we sent animals to market— we managed to get a slot. The traders very kindly sent me a note to say that the selling fees were more than the moneys that I had been offered, but that they would waive the fees on this occasion on the understanding that I would not send them any more ewes. That is happening all around Scotland. Other members have mentioned problems. Sylvia Jackson—she is my local MSP but she has not visited my farm—talked about the farmers' market in Perth. That market exists because primary producers in Scotland do not get a fair price for their produce compared to the price that the housewife pays in the high-street shop. I do not say that shops are profiting over the top, but the difference between what the primary producer pays and what the consumer pays are scandalously high and it is always the primary producer who gets caught.", "EditedTextHTML": "I begin with a declaration of interest. I am the third practising farmer to speak on behalf of the Conservatives today. As I have interests in beef, I was encouraged to hear comments about the quality of the beef that we produce in Scotland.

The motion asks that we congratulate the Executive, as though the job was done and dusted and Scottish agriculture and our rural economy were back on their feet. I am sure that that is not what Mr Finnie intended when the motion was lodged. As we heard this afternoon, the job is merely beginning. I am sure that he, above all others, realises that there are problems—we have heard graphic descriptions of them—in every sector of Scottish agriculture.

When I started my notes, I wrote down the words cast ewes. I was pleased to hear that Mr Finnie was going to take on Mr Fischler. Like Mr Finnie, I was disappointed that there is no scheme—I raised that with the minister some weeks ago.

To allow Mr Finnie better to illustrate the problem when he next meets Mr Fischler, I will happily lend him my Land Rover and a trailer full of cull ewes so that he can ask Mr Fischler what he should do with them. It is a huge problem— environmental as well as financial. Because of the impact on the environment and the water supply and so on, we cannot just kill animals and bury them anywhere. I desperately feel that, if nothing else can be done, a scheme to uplift animals from farms and dispose of them free of charge is probably the best way forward.

Mr Finnie suggested that people should get their cast ewes into the marketplace, but there is no point in doing that as there is no market to take them to. Last week, we sent animals to market— we managed to get a slot. The traders very kindly sent me a note to say that the selling fees were more than the moneys that I had been offered, but that they would waive the fees on this occasion on the understanding that I would not send them any more ewes. That is happening all around Scotland.

Other members have mentioned problems. Sylvia Jackson—she is my local MSP but she has not visited my farm—talked about the farmers' market in Perth. That market exists because primary producers in Scotland do not get a fair price for their produce compared to the price that the housewife pays in the high-street shop. I do not say that shops are profiting over the top, but the difference between what the primary producer pays and what the consumer pays are scandalously high and it is always the primary producer who gets caught.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C709755", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture (Agenda 2000)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26939, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 779.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 779.0, "ID": 26939, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 864.0, "ContributionID": 709755, "EditedText": "I call Richard Lochhead to wind up on behalf of the Scottish National party.", "EditedTextHTML": "I call Richard Lochhead to wind up on behalf of the Scottish National party.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709769", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Amnesic Shellfish Poisoning", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26942, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 889.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 889.0, "ID": 26942, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 890.0, "ContributionID": 709769, "EditedText": "Motion moved,", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion moved,

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709776", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26943, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 892.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 892.0, "ID": 26943, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 901.0, "ContributionID": 709776, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709781", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26943, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 892.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 892.0, "ID": 26943, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 909.0, "ContributionID": 709781, "EditedText": "The fourth question is that motion S1M.186, as amended by the First Minister's drafting amendment, in the name of the First Minister, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "The fourth question is that motion S1M.186, as amended by the First Minister's drafting amendment, in the name of the First Minister, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709790", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26943, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 892.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 892.0, "ID": 26943, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 924.0, "ContributionID": 709790, "EditedText": "There will be a division.", "EditedTextHTML": "There will be a division.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709794", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26943, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 892.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 892.0, "ID": 26943, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 930.0, "ContributionID": 709794, "EditedText": "The sixth question is that amendment S1M-185.2, in the name of Alex Johnstone, which seeks to amend the motion in the name of Ross Finnie, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "The sixth question is that amendment S1M-185.2, in the name of Alex Johnstone, which seeks to amend the motion in the name of Ross Finnie, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709796", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26943, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 892.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 892.0, "ID": 26943, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 934.0, "ContributionID": 709796, "EditedText": "There will be a division.", "EditedTextHTML": "There will be a division.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709799", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26943, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 892.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 892.0, "ID": 26943, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 939.0, "ContributionID": 709799, "EditedText": "Amendment disagreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment disagreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709806", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26943, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 892.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 892.0, "ID": 26943, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 950.0, "ContributionID": 709806, "EditedText": "That the Parliament welcomes the Scottish Executive's support for Scottish farmers and approves the steps it is taking to assist in creating a more sustainable future for Scottish agriculture.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament welcomes the Scottish Executive's support for Scottish farmers and approves the steps it is taking to assist in creating a more sustainable future for Scottish agriculture.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709807", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26943, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 892.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 892.0, "ID": 26943, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 951.0, "ContributionID": 709807, "EditedText": "The eighth question is, that motion S1M-192, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, on the appointment of Dr Richard Simpson to the Standards Committee, be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "The eighth question is, that motion S1M-192, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, on the appointment of Dr Richard Simpson to the Standards Committee, be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709809", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26943, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 892.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 892.0, "ID": 26943, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 954.0, "ContributionID": 709809, "EditedText": "That the Parliament agrees that Dr Richard Simpson be appointed to the Standards Committee.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament agrees that Dr Richard Simpson be appointed to the Standards Committee.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709817", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26943, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 892.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 892.0, "ID": 26943, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 964.0, "ContributionID": 709817, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709819", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Organisations", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26944, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 966.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 966.0, "ID": 26944, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 967.0, "ContributionID": 709819, "EditedText": "We now move to members' business: motion S1M-156 on criminal checks for voluntary organisations. The debate will last for half an hour, so we will conclude at 17:40. I call Andrew Wilson to open the debate, but first ask members who are not staying to leave quietly.", "EditedTextHTML": "We now move to members' business: motion S1M-156 on criminal checks for voluntary organisations. The debate will last for half an hour, so we will conclude at 17:40.

I call Andrew Wilson to open the debate, but first ask members who are not staying to leave quietly.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709821", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Organisations", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26944, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 966.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 966.0, "ID": 26944, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 970.0, "ContributionID": 709821, "EditedText": "That the Parliament recognises the invaluable work done by the broad range of voluntary organisations and calls upon the Scottish Executive to ensure that no charge be levied against voluntary organisations when they apply to have their volunteers, staff and office holders checked by the Scottish Criminal Records Office with regard to child protection.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament recognises the invaluable work done by the broad range of voluntary organisations and calls upon the Scottish Executive to ensure that no charge be levied against voluntary organisations when they apply to have their volunteers, staff and office holders checked by the Scottish Criminal Records Office with regard to child protection.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C709822", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Organisations", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26944, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 966.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 966.0, "ID": 26944, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 972.0, "ContributionID": 709822, "EditedText": "Before I start, I wish to make a point that I would have raised as a point of order. It was drawn to our attention earlier today that the Executive had the small-mindedness to issue a media release in advance of the debate. I have to say that that sought to undermine the spirit of the debate. The Executive issued an answer to a parliamentary question before it was even reached during oral questions. That shows a complete lack of respect for the Parliament and its procedures, and I seek your view at some point in the future, on the correctness of that approach.", "EditedTextHTML": "Before I start, I wish to make a point that I would have raised as a point of order.

It was drawn to our attention earlier today that the Executive had the small-mindedness to issue a media release in advance of the debate. I have to say that that sought to undermine the spirit of the debate. The Executive issued an answer to a parliamentary question before it was even reached during oral questions. That shows a complete lack of respect for the Parliament and its procedures, and I seek your view at some point in the future, on the correctness of that approach.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1775E171P452C709828", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Organisations", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26944, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 966.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 966.0, "ID": 26944, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeod, Fiona", "ID": 1775, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona McLeod", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona McLeod (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 984.0, "ContributionID": 709828, "EditedText": "Mr Wilson rightly says that SCRO checks are not mandatory. However, I am sure that he will agree with me and with more learned people, such as Lord Cullen, that those checks are a vital component in ensuring safe and secure environments in which our young people can flourish. I am sure that he will ask the Government to ensure that we do not put our children at risk by levying those charges, which the Police Act 1997 does not decree.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Wilson rightly says that SCRO checks are not mandatory. However, I am sure that he will agree with me and with more learned people, such as Lord Cullen, that those checks are a vital component in ensuring safe and secure environments in which our young people can flourish. I am sure that he will ask the Government to ensure that we do not put our children at risk by levying those charges, which the Police Act 1997 does not decree.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709826", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Organisations", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26944, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 966.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 966.0, "ID": 26944, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 980.0, "ContributionID": 709826, "EditedText": "I am sorry, but I cannot reply. I was busy looking at the large number of members who want to speak in the debate, rather than listening to what Mr Wilson was saying. I will not comment, but I ask the member to proceed.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry, but I cannot reply. I was busy looking at the large number of members who want to speak in the debate, rather than listening to what Mr Wilson was saying. I will not comment, but I ask the member to proceed.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C709831", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Organisations", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26944, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 966.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 966.0, "ID": 26944, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 990.0, "ContributionID": 709831, "EditedText": "I do not think that that is the way forward. I think that I am right to say that, a month ago, that was the Government's position. I am glad that it has agreed, with good grace, to change that position, as it wants to review the situation. However, it is a matter of regret that the Government cannot come to a firm decision. It is unhelpful to voluntary organisations for the charges to be imposed on the basis that they should be self-financing.", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not think that that is the way forward. I think that I am right to say that, a month ago, that was the Government's position. I am glad that it has agreed, with good grace, to change that position, as it wants to review the situation. However, it is a matter of regret that the Government cannot come to a firm decision. It is unhelpful to voluntary organisations for the charges to be imposed on the basis that they should be self-financing.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1950E155P451C709832", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Organisations", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26944, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 966.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 966.0, "ID": 26944, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Campbell, Colin", "ID": 1950, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Colin Campbell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Colin Campbell (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 992.0, "ContributionID": 709832, "EditedText": "Self-financing organisations have been mentioned. In light of the fact that several scout leaders approached me about the matter at a scout function just the weekend before Andrew lodged his motion, I undertook a little research. I contacted some acquaintances in the Territorial and Auxiliary Volunteer Reserve Association, which runs the cadets; it is one of the largest organisations in the United Kingdom. I established that that organisation, which is funded by the Government, takes care of the criminal records part of the exercise. The Government pays for those checks in its own youth organisations.", "EditedTextHTML": "Self-financing organisations have been mentioned. In light of the fact that several scout leaders approached me about the matter at a scout function just the weekend before Andrew lodged his motion, I undertook a little research. I contacted some acquaintances in the Territorial and Auxiliary Volunteer Reserve Association, which runs the cadets; it is one of the largest organisations in the United Kingdom. I established that that organisation, which is funded by the Government, takes care of the criminal records part of the exercise. The Government pays for those checks in its own youth organisations.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1769E16P282C709834", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Organisations", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26944, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 966.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 966.0, "ID": 26944, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Smith, Elaine", "ID": 1769, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Coatbridge and Chryston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Smith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Elaine Smith (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 996.0, "ContributionID": 709834, "EditedText": "Given what Mr Wilson is saying, a review seems a sensible course of action. Other issues are involved as well as cost. Does he support a review?", "EditedTextHTML": "Given what Mr Wilson is saying, a review seems a sensible course of action. Other issues are involved as well as cost. Does he support a review?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2118E157P454C709836", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Organisations", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26944, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 966.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 966.0, "ID": 26944, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Quinan, Mr Lloyd", "ID": 2118, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lloyd Quinan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Quinan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1000.0, "ContributionID": 709836, "EditedText": "Does Mr Wilson agree that there appears to be a deal of confusion in the Executive on the issue? A number of written questions have been answered by the Minister for Justice and his deputy, yet it would appear that responsibility has been shifted to the Deputy Minister for Communities with responsibility for the voluntary sector. The Minister for Justice and his deputy should be here for the debate, as they have been responsible for most of the replies to written and oral questions over the past few months.", "EditedTextHTML": "Does Mr Wilson agree that there appears to be a deal of confusion in the Executive on the issue? A number of written questions have been answered by the Minister for Justice and his deputy, yet it would appear that responsibility has been shifted to the Deputy Minister for Communities with responsibility for the voluntary sector. The Minister for Justice and his deputy should be here for the debate, as they have been responsible for most of the replies to written and oral questions over the past few months.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C709840", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Organisations", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26944, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 966.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 966.0, "ID": 26944, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1008.0, "ContributionID": 709840, "EditedText": "I am grateful to Cathie Craigie,and the short answer is no.I now come to the key questions that I would like the minister to answer. Does the Executive agree that the costs of the checks should be borne by voluntary organisations and individuals, yes or no? That is a straight question which requires a straight answer. Does the Executive agree that we need explicit guidelines on who should be checked and when they should be checked, to protect voluntary organisations from legal proceedings that could arise from pursuit of that information, yes or no? We need to know: does the Executive agree on the exact costs and whether protection will be extended to all individuals who are classed as vulnerable? Those are straight and obvious questions. The Executive has been elected by the electorate and is paid handsomely to make decisions on the electorate's behalf. Perhaps we can have some answers rather than reviews. A review is not needed to find the answers. The Executive should admit that it has been wrong and that it has been graceless in the way that it has gone about things. It should show some decency and respect for the Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful to Cathie Craigie,

and the short answer is no.

I now come to the key questions that I would like the minister to answer. Does the Executive agree that the costs of the checks should be borne by voluntary organisations and individuals, yes or no? That is a straight question which requires a straight answer.

Does the Executive agree that we need explicit guidelines on who should be checked and when they should be checked, to protect voluntary organisations from legal proceedings that could arise from pursuit of that information, yes or no? We need to know: does the Executive agree on the exact costs and whether protection will be extended to all individuals who are classed as vulnerable?

Those are straight and obvious questions. The Executive has been elected by the electorate and is paid handsomely to make decisions on the electorate's behalf. Perhaps we can have some answers rather than reviews.

A review is not needed to find the answers. The Executive should admit that it has been wrong and that it has been graceless in the way that it has gone about things. It should show some decency and respect for the Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1769E16P282C709845", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Organisations", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26944, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 966.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 966.0, "ID": 26944, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Smith, Elaine", "ID": 1769, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Coatbridge and Chryston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Smith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Elaine Smith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1019.0, "ContributionID": 709845, "EditedText": "I move,That the debate be extended by up to 30 minutes.", "EditedTextHTML": "I move,

That the debate be extended by up to 30 minutes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709847", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Organisations", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26944, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 966.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 966.0, "ID": 26944, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1023.0, "ContributionID": 709847, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C709848", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Organisations", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26944, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 966.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 966.0, "ID": 26944, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr David Davidson (North-East Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1025.0, "ContributionID": 709848, "EditedText": "I note what you say, Presiding Officer, and I shall be brief. I raised this issue in an oral question on 1 July. I asked Jim Wallace whether he was going to implement a charging system for this check. He replied that the Executive had not considered it. I then asked whether he was aware of the costs, which I labelled. Andrew has quoted some of the organisations that would be concerned, which are only examples. I then wrote to Mr Wallace, who said that there would be a review. Although it is late in the response, I suspect that that is what we will get. I have not seen the document to which Andrew Wilson alluded today. I have received letters and written to many organisations, including police forces. Senior police officers have said that they cannot afford to conduct checks without charging. Costs will be incurred. If checks are to be carried out, we must ask the Executive to ensure that there is adequate funding for the police to enable them to provide that service on a non-profit-making basis—they must at least break even. A series of letters have been received. We have all been involved in youth work. I am a father of five and I am grateful for what my children have received from various organisations. We must supply security. That is fine, but when we conduct checks we must ensure—this has been mentioned in much of my correspondence—that they relate merely to proven wrongdoings, not to suspicion and rumour. There is evidence to suggest that that has not happened in some checks. I ask the minister to ensure that in any review, that point will be researched and clarified. It is a worry that, in this age of ours, people are keen to go to law and to point the finger. Although we must scrutinise the people who put themselves forward as volunteers, we must be careful to be fair and to remember their rights. I am grateful to Andrew for securing this debate. It carries on from where I started three months ago and I hope that it will continue.", "EditedTextHTML": "I note what you say, Presiding Officer, and I shall be brief.

I raised this issue in an oral question on 1 July. I asked Jim Wallace whether he was going to implement a charging system for this check. He replied that the Executive had not considered it. I then asked whether he was aware of the costs, which I labelled. Andrew has quoted some of the organisations that would be concerned, which are only examples. I then wrote to Mr Wallace, who said that there would be a review. Although it is late in the response, I suspect that that is what we will get. I have not seen the document to which Andrew Wilson alluded today.

I have received letters and written to many organisations, including police forces. Senior police officers have said that they cannot afford to conduct checks without charging. Costs will be incurred. If checks are to be carried out, we must ask the Executive to ensure that there is adequate funding for the police to enable them to provide that service on a non-profit-making basis—they must at least break even.

A series of letters have been received. We have all been involved in youth work. I am a father of five and I am grateful for what my children have received from various organisations. We must supply security. That is fine, but when we conduct checks we must ensure—this has been mentioned in much of my correspondence—that they relate merely to proven wrongdoings, not to suspicion and rumour. There is evidence to suggest that that has not happened in some checks.

I ask the minister to ensure that in any review, that point will be researched and clarified. It is a worry that, in this age of ours, people are keen to go to law and to point the finger. Although we must scrutinise the people who put themselves forward as volunteers, we must be careful to be fair and to remember their rights.

I am grateful to Andrew for securing this debate. It carries on from where I started three months ago and I hope that it will continue.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1775E171P452C709851", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Organisations", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26944, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 966.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 966.0, "ID": 26944, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeod, Fiona", "ID": 1775, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona McLeod", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona McLeod (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1034.0, "ContributionID": 709851, "EditedText": "I echo other members in thanking Andrew for bringing this matter to Parliament and I thank you, Presiding Officer, for deciding to extend the debate. As a volunteer in youth clubs and drop-in cafes in my constituency I am pleased that Parliament has the chance to underline the importance of the issue. I hope that the minister will recognise the concerns of youth organisations and will fight their corner in the Executive. I am appalled that the Government could compromise this vital component of child safety by even considering levying a tax on volunteers—and for the paltry sum of £2 million to £3 million. That figure is paltry when we hear about the number of people and the hours of work involved. Volunteers are delivering the Government's social inclusion agenda, and now they will be charged for the privilege. Local authorities should run many of the clubs, but community education budgets are always soft targets when cuts have to be made. I enjoy my volunteering—well, maybe not toilet duty at Saturday night discos. I am sure that people we have heard from today get as much value from their volunteering as they put back into their communities but that is no excuse for introducing a charge that undermines the principle of child safety and it strains volunteers' good will. The minister and the Executive must be clear that Scotland's Parliament cherishes Scotland's volunteers and Scotland's children, even if she does not.", "EditedTextHTML": "I echo other members in thanking Andrew for bringing this matter to Parliament and I thank you, Presiding Officer, for deciding to extend the debate. As a volunteer in youth clubs and drop-in cafes in my constituency I am pleased that Parliament has the chance to underline the importance of the issue. I hope that the minister will recognise the concerns of youth organisations and will fight their corner in the Executive.

I am appalled that the Government could compromise this vital component of child safety by even considering levying a tax on volunteers—and for the paltry sum of £2 million to £3 million. That figure is paltry when we hear about the number of people and the hours of work involved. Volunteers are delivering the Government's social inclusion agenda, and now they will be charged for the privilege.

Local authorities should run many of the clubs, but community education budgets are always soft targets when cuts have to be made. I enjoy my volunteering—well, maybe not toilet duty at Saturday night discos. I am sure that people we have heard from today get as much value from their volunteering as they put back into their communities but that is no excuse for introducing a charge that undermines the principle of child safety and it strains volunteers' good will. The minister and the Executive must be clear that Scotland's Parliament cherishes Scotland's volunteers and Scotland's children, even if she does not.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1752E75P296C709852", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Organisations", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26944, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 966.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 966.0, "ID": 26944, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jamieson, Cathy", "ID": 1752, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Cathy Jamieson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Cathy Jamieson (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1037.0, "ContributionID": 709852, "EditedText": "I welcome the debate but I am disappointed that it began to descend into slagging off along party lines. For the record, Andrew, I raised this issue in the debate on the voluntary sector and have passed on to the minister my serious concerns about the possibility of introducing charges because of the implications for the voluntary sector, particularly in less-well-off communities. Tommy Sheridan spoke about the class war. There is no such thing as class in abuse. For someone who is a victim of abuse, it does not matter whether they are working class, middle class or upper class, it does not matter what gender they are or their racial origin, or if they are able bodied or have a disability; they are still an abuse victim. Statistics tell us that the chances are that there are several people in the chamber and the audience who have been victims of abuse or of inappropriate behaviour towards them as children. I have a long involvement with this subject and I know that a piece of paper saying that somebody does not have a previous conviction will go only a very small way towards protecting children. We know that abusers are devious people who will find all sorts of ways of getting close to children and will spend time working with children trying to gain their confidence. We know that they are often in positions of trust—I have had to deal with people who were pillars of their communities and in other aspects of their lives would be considered fine, upstanding citizens. We should not get carried away with this one issue in child protection. We should look genuinely at what we are going to do to protect children. The voluntary sector knows very well that protecting children is about training, recruitment, selection of volunteers and support. Many people form inappropriate relationships with children they become close to through voluntary activity or as paid professionals because there is not proper supervision and monitoring. This issue is not a party political football to be booted around in the chamber or anywhere else— if we are serious about children's issues and child protection. I hope that Jackie Baillie will give us some answers. I hope that there will be consultation with the voluntary sector and, most of all, I hope that there will continue to be discussions with the victims of abuse, who are the people who can best say what could have been done to protect them.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the debate but I am disappointed that it began to descend into slagging off along party lines. For the record, Andrew, I raised this issue in the debate on the voluntary sector and have passed on to the minister my serious concerns about the possibility of introducing charges because of the implications for the voluntary sector, particularly in less-well-off communities.

Tommy Sheridan spoke about the class war. There is no such thing as class in abuse. For someone who is a victim of abuse, it does not matter whether they are working class, middle class or upper class, it does not matter what gender they are or their racial origin, or if they are able bodied or have a disability; they are still an abuse victim. Statistics tell us that the chances are that there are several people in the chamber and the audience who have been victims of abuse or of inappropriate behaviour towards them as children.

I have a long involvement with this subject and I know that a piece of paper saying that somebody does not have a previous conviction will go only a very small way towards protecting children. We know that abusers are devious people who will find all sorts of ways of getting close to children and will spend time working with children trying to gain their confidence. We know that they are often in positions of trust—I have had to deal with people who were pillars of their communities and in other aspects of their lives would be considered fine, upstanding citizens.

We should not get carried away with this one issue in child protection. We should look genuinely at what we are going to do to protect children. The voluntary sector knows very well that protecting children is about training, recruitment, selection of volunteers and support. Many people form inappropriate relationships with children they become close to through voluntary activity or as paid professionals because there is not proper supervision and monitoring.

This issue is not a party political football to be booted around in the chamber or anywhere else— if we are serious about children's issues and child protection. I hope that Jackie Baillie will give us some answers. I hope that there will be consultation with the voluntary sector and, most of all, I hope that there will continue to be discussions with the victims of abuse, who are the people who can best say what could have been done to protect them.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2118E157P454C709855", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Organisations", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26944, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 966.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 966.0, "ID": 26944, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Quinan, Mr Lloyd", "ID": 2118, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lloyd Quinan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Lloyd Quinan (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1045.0, "ContributionID": 709855, "EditedText": "There is no one in the press gallery because the Executive made a press statement at 3.30 this afternoon. That is why the media are not here.", "EditedTextHTML": "There is no one in the press gallery because the Executive made a press statement at 3.30 this afternoon. That is why the media are not here.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2118E157P454C709857", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Organisations", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26944, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 966.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 966.0, "ID": 26944, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Quinan, Mr Lloyd", "ID": 2118, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lloyd Quinan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Quinan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1049.0, "ContributionID": 709857, "EditedText": "Is it true or not?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is it true or not?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2185E120P328C709859", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Organisations", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26944, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 966.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 966.0, "ID": 26944, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Brown, Robert", "ID": 2185, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robert Brown", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robert Brown (Glasgow) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1054.0, "ContributionID": 709859, "EditedText": "I, too, welcome this debate, albeit not the tone of some of the speeches, which is to be regretted. This is an important subject, but we must ensure that we do not throw the baby out with the bath water in terms of the £10 charge, which falls erratically on the voluntary sector, as it impinges on only a section of it. It impinges on organisations in a variety of ways. I talked with the Scottish Youth Hostel Association, which is slightly different from the scouts or the Boys Brigade. The SYHA has a large number of seasonal workers—students, catering staff and cleaners who stay for short periods. There are about 70 hostels in Scotland and they get about 800 people through their books in a year. The charge could therefore cost that worthy organisation about £8,000 per annum. suspect that voluntary groups will gladly shoulder the administrative burden of dealing with checks to ensure child safety, but they have already suffered from local authority cuts. Is it reasonable to ask them to shoulder the £10 charge as well? One or two million pounds is a fortune to the voluntary sector but a drop in the ocean to the Scottish Executive. Even the straitened finances within which we now operate in the public sector could deal with that. There have been fine words about the voluntary sector, but the crunch is whether our fine words will be matched by fine action to deal with the problem. We are not dealing with anonymous entries in bureaucratic receipt books; we are dealing with organisations that are the life-blood of this country and the life-blood of the enriching experience that we want to give our children. Those people provide children with positive alternatives, keep them off the street, out of trouble and out of harm. Is it possible to deal with this in Scotland alone? I believe that it is. These matters are dealt with by place of address so there is no particular difficulty restricting inquiries to inquiries from Scotland. The original self-funding policy was misconceived, so there is an opportunity for the Parliament and the Executive to put that right and remove this burden from the voluntary sector and the volunteers who are the life-blood of that sector.", "EditedTextHTML": "I, too, welcome this debate, albeit not the tone of some of the speeches, which is to be regretted.

This is an important subject, but we must ensure that we do not throw the baby out with the bath water in terms of the £10 charge, which falls erratically on the voluntary sector, as it impinges on only a section of it. It impinges on organisations in a variety of ways. I talked with the Scottish Youth Hostel Association, which is slightly different from the scouts or the Boys Brigade.

The SYHA has a large number of seasonal workers—students, catering staff and cleaners who stay for short periods. There are about 70 hostels in Scotland and they get about 800 people through their books in a year. The charge could therefore cost that worthy organisation about £8,000 per annum. suspect that voluntary groups will gladly shoulder the administrative burden of dealing with checks to ensure child safety, but they have already suffered from local authority cuts. Is it reasonable to ask them to shoulder the £10 charge as well? One or two million pounds is a fortune to the voluntary sector but a drop in the ocean to the Scottish Executive. Even the straitened finances within which we now operate in the public sector could deal with that.

There have been fine words about the voluntary sector, but the crunch is whether our fine words will be matched by fine action to deal with the problem.

We are not dealing with anonymous entries in bureaucratic receipt books; we are dealing with organisations that are the life-blood of this country and the life-blood of the enriching experience that we want to give our children. Those people provide children with positive alternatives, keep them off the street, out of trouble and out of harm.

Is it possible to deal with this in Scotland alone? I believe that it is. These matters are dealt with by place of address so there is no particular difficulty restricting inquiries to inquiries from Scotland. The original self-funding policy was misconceived, so there is an opportunity for the Parliament and the Executive to put that right and remove this burden from the voluntary sector and the volunteers who are the life-blood of that sector.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709864", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Organisations", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26944, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 966.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 966.0, "ID": 26944, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1066.0, "ContributionID": 709864, "EditedText": "Meeting closed at 18:03.", "EditedTextHTML": "Meeting closed at 18:03.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C709356", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 12.0, "ContributionID": 709356, "EditedText": "On a point of order. I thank the First Minister for his comments and for acknowledging the problems that have been created for the Parliament by this omission from the motion. Presiding Officer, will you clarify whether the status of the change that is proposed by the First Minister constitutes a formal amendment to his motion? Furthermore, will we have to vote separately on such an amendment at decision time?", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. I thank the First Minister for his comments and for acknowledging the problems that have been created for the Parliament by this omission from the motion. Presiding Officer, will you clarify whether the status of the change that is proposed by the First Minister constitutes a formal amendment to his motion? Furthermore, will we have to vote separately on such an amendment at decision time?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:13:41.2269066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C709364", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 29.0, "ContributionID": 709364, "EditedText": "Opening: it is just coming.", "EditedTextHTML": "Opening: it is just coming.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:13:41.2269066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C709380", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 61.0, "ContributionID": 709380, "EditedText": "That is the point that I was making.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is the point that I was making.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:13:41.2269066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C709515", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 342.0, "ContributionID": 709515, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:17:36.376716+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C709544", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 406.0, "ContributionID": 709544, "EditedText": "The debate has been interesting and I compliment everyone who has taken part. We got off to a rather shaky start, with the Executive's careless preparation of the motion. That is symptomatic of the careless way in which the whole matter has been handled. The issue of concordats is not exactly a surprise, nor is it something that has been thrown up recently; it has been around not only in the current debate, but during the whole passage of the Scotland Bill through the House of Commons. Why did the First Minister and the Secretary of State for Scotland feel the need to hold a press conference to explain the contents of the document before it came to the Parliament? We followed the same format as we did yesterday, with the First Minister giving a statement and then opening up the matter for debate. The Executive has been discourteous in its handling of this matter and I hope that it has learned some lessons.", "EditedTextHTML": "The debate has been interesting and I compliment

everyone who has taken part. We got off to a rather shaky start, with the Executive's careless preparation of the motion. That is symptomatic of the careless way in which the whole matter has been handled. The issue of concordats is not exactly a surprise, nor is it something that has been thrown up recently; it has been around not only in the current debate, but during the whole passage of the Scotland Bill through the House of Commons.

Why did the First Minister and the Secretary of State for Scotland feel the need to hold a press conference to explain the contents of the document before it came to the Parliament? We followed the same format as we did yesterday, with the First Minister giving a statement and then opening up the matter for debate. The Executive has been discourteous in its handling of this matter and I hope that it has learned some lessons.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:18:48.0221515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C709548", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 414.0, "ContributionID": 709548, "EditedText": "Is it not fair for us to know whether the Scottish Executive has fought valiantly in Scotland's interests at a particular stage in the deliberations? Perhaps the Executive has been pushed into compromising on some issues. Are we not entitled to be told how hard our Executive has fought on behalf of the Scottish Parliament? We have a legitimate right to know. George Lyon said that the Scottish Liberal Democrats agreed on the need for a mechanism to ensure that outbidding for inward investment does not take place. Great. The Scottish Liberal Democrats have again shifted their ground. On 20 November 1997, before the election, Jim Wallace said: \"I find it extraordinary that after devolution there will be more restrictions on the freedom of operation of Locate in Scotland than there is pre-devolution.\" On 16 October 1997, he said:\"It will be resented in Scotland if initiatives of the Scottish Parliament in a devolved subject have got be cleared with the DTI first.\" However, that is implicit in the memorandum of understanding, which, in the section dealing with consultation on particular cases, says that, before making offers of financial assistance, the Scottish Executive and its agents, Locate in Scotland, are obliged to take information \"in adequate detail and to a reasonable timescale\"to a ministerial committee. While all the agencies in the United Kingdom are in committee, the Republic of Ireland and the rest of the global market will be winning inward investment. That is the real competitive disadvantage that is faced by the Scottish Parliament, the Scottish Executive and our leading and highly commendable agency, Locate in Scotland, whose competitiveness is being strangled by the agreement. When Mr Wallace sums up, he had betterexplain how he can square the comments that have been reported by me and Adam Ingram with the stance that he, George Lyon and Keith Raffan have taken in the Parliament today. There has been some confusion about the legal status of the concordats. I challenged the First Minister on that—I notice that he, too, is going against the Presiding Officer's strictures; he still has not returned for the summing up. He said that the documents were not legally binding, but that, if the UK Government was not delivering on its side of the bargain, the Executive would have something to say about it. If it is possible to apply discretion as to the ability of the different partners to act in the spirit of the agreements, but nothing is enforceable, there is a debate about the legal status of the documents and the obligations that they place on the different partners. That has not been resolved by today's debate. The SNP has made some suggestions on how to improve the concordats. My colleague Mr Neil suggested a rotating chair for the joint ministerial committee and the publication of the committee's minutes as an addition to the democratic parliamentary scrutiny of the Executive's actions. Those are reasonable requests. We can do absolutely nothing about the concordats because they have been presented to us on a take-it-orleave- it basis. There has been no consultation or dialogue; the Executive has simply to turn up, go through the motions and allow a debate for two and a half hours. That is not effective parliamentary scrutiny. I get very concerned when ministers begin to hide behind the details of documents, behind the claim that an issue is confidential because it cropped up in the joint ministerial committee and behind answers such as, \"I shall reply to the member as soon as possible\". This Parliament has had its ability properly to scrutinise the Executive constrained by the way in which the Executive has signed up to work in partnership with the Executives of other institutions in the United Kingdom. The fundamental question put by my colleague Mr Neil at the start of this debate has not been answered—how do we structure good neighbourly relations between the component parts of the UK? That is the question at the heart of the issues that the Scottish National party has raised; I hope that Mr Wallace will answer it in his summing up.", "EditedTextHTML": "Is it not fair for us to know whether the Scottish Executive has fought valiantly in Scotland's interests at a particular stage in the deliberations? Perhaps the Executive has been pushed into compromising on some issues. Are we not entitled to be told how hard our Executive has fought on behalf of the Scottish Parliament? We have a legitimate right to know.

George Lyon said that the Scottish Liberal Democrats agreed on the need for a mechanism to ensure that outbidding for inward investment does not take place. Great. The Scottish Liberal Democrats have again shifted their ground. On 20 November 1997, before the election, Jim Wallace said:

\"I find it extraordinary that after devolution there will be more restrictions on the freedom of operation of Locate in Scotland than there is pre-devolution.\"

On 16 October 1997, he said:

\"It will be resented in Scotland if initiatives of the Scottish Parliament in a devolved subject have got be cleared with the DTI first.\"

However, that is implicit in the memorandum of understanding, which, in the section dealing with consultation on particular cases, says that, before making offers of financial assistance, the Scottish Executive and its agents, Locate in Scotland, are obliged to take information

\"in adequate detail and to a reasonable timescale\"

to a ministerial committee. While all the agencies in the United Kingdom are in committee, the Republic of Ireland and the rest of the global market will be winning inward investment. That is the real competitive disadvantage that is faced by the Scottish Parliament, the Scottish Executive and our leading and highly commendable agency, Locate in Scotland, whose competitiveness is being strangled by the agreement.

When Mr Wallace sums up, he had better

explain how he can square the comments that have been reported by me and Adam Ingram with the stance that he, George Lyon and Keith Raffan have taken in the Parliament today.

There has been some confusion about the legal status of the concordats. I challenged the First Minister on that—I notice that he, too, is going against the Presiding Officer's strictures; he still has not returned for the summing up. He said that the documents were not legally binding, but that, if the UK Government was not delivering on its side of the bargain, the Executive would have something to say about it. If it is possible to apply discretion as to the ability of the different partners to act in the spirit of the agreements, but nothing is enforceable, there is a debate about the legal status of the documents and the obligations that they place on the different partners. That has not been resolved by today's debate.

The SNP has made some suggestions on how to improve the concordats. My colleague Mr Neil suggested a rotating chair for the joint ministerial committee and the publication of the committee's minutes as an addition to the democratic parliamentary scrutiny of the Executive's actions. Those are reasonable requests. We can do absolutely nothing about the concordats because they have been presented to us on a take-it-orleave- it basis. There has been no consultation or dialogue; the Executive has simply to turn up, go through the motions and allow a debate for two and a half hours. That is not effective parliamentary scrutiny.

I get very concerned when ministers begin to hide behind the details of documents, behind the claim that an issue is confidential because it cropped up in the joint ministerial committee and behind answers such as, \"I shall reply to the member as soon as possible\". This Parliament has had its ability properly to scrutinise the Executive constrained by the way in which the Executive has signed up to work in partnership with the Executives of other institutions in the United Kingdom.

The fundamental question put by my colleague Mr Neil at the start of this debate has not been answered—how do we structure good neighbourly relations between the component parts of the UK? That is the question at the heart of the issues that the Scottish National party has raised; I hope that Mr Wallace will answer it in his summing up.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:18:48.0221515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C709564", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 447.0, "ContributionID": 709564, "EditedText": "Mr Wallace has been very gracious in giving way several times; I appreciate that. If the Parliament wants to debate an issue that arises in the joint ministerial committee, will he be prepared to release the minutes of that committee so that Parliament can undertake close scrutiny of the ministers whom we have elected?", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Wallace has been very gracious in giving way several times; I appreciate that. If the Parliament wants to debate an issue that arises in the joint ministerial committee, will he be prepared to release the minutes of that committee so that Parliament can undertake close scrutiny of the ministers whom we have elected?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:18:48.0221515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C709438", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 180.0, "ContributionID": 709438, "EditedText": "Mr Lyon said that the document describes a relationship between Parliaments. The motion that we are asked to support today makes absolutely no mention of the involvement of the Scottish Parliament, other than to ask us to endorse a document that empowers Scottish ministers to make particular representations. I am totally confused by his line of argument. Will he explain what he means?", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Lyon said that the document describes a relationship between Parliaments. The motion that we are asked to support today makes absolutely no mention of the involvement of the Scottish Parliament, other than to ask us to endorse a document that empowers Scottish ministers to make particular representations. I am totally confused by his line of argument. Will he explain what he means?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:14:54.5772891+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C709749", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture (Agenda 2000)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26939, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 779.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 779.0, "ID": 26939, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fergus Ewing (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 852.0, "ContributionID": 709749, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:00:52.6390172+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C709690", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Railways", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26938, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 719.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 719.0, "ID": 26938, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment (Sarah Boyack): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 723.0, "ContributionID": 709690, "EditedText": "With permission, Sir David, I will make a statement about the devolution of executive functions for railways to the Scottish ministers, for which provision has been made in the UK Railways Bill. Before I turn to the main purpose of my statement, I wish to register my own shock and horror regarding the appalling events outside Paddington on Tuesday. Yesterday, as a Parliament, we passed on our condolences to the families and friends of the people who were killed or injured in that terrible accident. As transport minister, I wish to take this opportunity to reiterate that the safety of everyone who travels on public transport is a primary concern of the Scottish Executive. Rail safety is an issue on which we need consistent standards across the whole UK. The Scottish Executive is, therefore, in regular contact with the Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions, the Health and Safety Executive, Her Majesty's railway inspectorate, the Rail Regulator and the British Transport Police on matters relating to rail safety in Scotland. Earlier today, Gus Macdonald gave me clear assurances that any lessons learned from the public inquiry into Tuesday's accident will be applied in Scotland as uniformly as they will be throughout the rest of Britain. The rail industry in Scotland has already committed itself to investing in improved safety across the network, aimed at further reducing the chances of accidents. Although Scotland's recent rail safety record has been comparatively good, that should in no way be grounds for complacency. We will work with the industry in Scotland and UK transport safety agencies to ensure that rail safety standards continue to improve and passenger confidence in rail travel is restored. On 7 July, I wrote to all members of the Scottish Parliament outlining arrangements for transferring a number of executive functions to Scottish ministers through provisions made in the Railways Bill introduced at Westminster the same day. When the bill was introduced, the Scottish Parliament was in recess, so I made a commitment to make a statement on these matters to members once they reconvened this autumn. Today, I am honouring that commitment.Members will recall that on 31 March last year— during the passage of the Scotland Bill—Henry McLeish announced in the House of Commons that a significant and extensive range of legislative competence and executive functions dealing with railways would be transferred to the Scottish Parliament and Executive. At the time, there was considerable debate about the future of the railways across Britain. The UK Government had already committed itself to reforming the structures that regulated and managed the privatised rail industry. It had stated that legislation would be introduced to give statutory weight to its commitment to secure a better deal for rail passengers. Our priorities are to ensure that the railways are operated safely, securely, efficiently and in the public interest. We believe that core standards need to be common in all parts of the UK. I also believe that a number of key functions that affect the type of service that is delivered to rail passengers in Scotland should be held by the Scottish ministers. Provision for those functions has been made in the UK Railways Bill. The bill is intended to deliver the devolution of executive powers over the issuing of directions and guidance to the strategic rail authority in relation to passenger rail services that start and end in Scotland and are provided under a franchise agreement; and over the issuing of directions and guidance to the SRA in relation to passenger rail sleeper services that start or end in Scotland and are provided under a franchise agreement by an operator who also provides passenger rail services that start and end in Scotland. Those functions are to be exercised within a Great Britain strategic policy framework for the railways. That will ensure that standards of performance management, operation, safety and security are applied consistently across the rail industry. In addition to directions and guidance to the SRA, the bill also reaffirms the authority of the Scottish ministers to make freight facilities grants and track access grants in Scotland within the new statutory arrangements and overall GB policy. In my letter to MSPs on 7 July, I explained why it had been decided to transfer those functions by making provision for them in the UK Railways Bill. Usually, the transfer of executive functions would be achieved through the use of orders under section 63 of the Scotland Act 1998. Such orders require the approval of both Parliaments. Indeed, a number of railway functions have already been transferred to the Scottish ministers in that way. However, in the case of the executive functions dealing with directions and guidance and freight grants, Scottish ministers agreed with the UK Government that, in this instance, it would be more straightforward and transparent to provide in the bill for the transfer to the Scottish ministers. The normal route for transferring functions to the Scottish ministers remains orders under the Scotland Act 1998, over which this Parliament will have control. The transfer of executive functions that is provided for in the UK Railways Bill is one part of the agreed devolution package for railways. It may be helpful to members if I indicate the current position on the other components of the package. The Scotland Act 1998 already provides for the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament to give certain grants for passenger rail services. Further legislative competence for the rail responsibilities of Strathclyde Passenger Transport Executive, and for the authorisation of proposals for the construction of new railways in Scotland, will be devolved to the Scottish Parliament by order under section 30 of the Scotland Act 1998, again subject to the approval of this Parliament. The executive devolution order made under section 63 of the Scotland Act 1998, which was approved by both Parliaments in June, devolved executive responsibility for the administration of rail freight grants. That order, with an order under section 89 of the Scotland Act 1998, which has also been approved by this Parliament, also transferred to the Scottish ministers the responsibility for appointing the chair of the Rail Users Consultative Committee for Scotland. The order also requires the Office of the Rail Regulator to consult the Scottish ministers on the appointment of new members to that committee. Furthermore, the order requires the Scottish ministers to lay the reports of the Rail Users Consultative Committee for Scotland, the Central Rail Users Consultative Committee, the franchising director and the Rail Regulator before the Scottish Parliament. Arrangements are also being put in place to transfer to the Scottish Executive the finances to pay for the passenger rail services that are currently provided by ScotRail under the terms of its franchise. The implementation of the first components of this package is already reaping dividends for Scotland's railways. The ministerial authority to make freight grants has enabled the Scottish Executive to make three major awards totalling more than £6.5 million since 1 July. Those awards have already made a major contribution to the \"Partnership for Scotland\" commitment, which was reaffirmed in \"Making it Work Together\", to transfer freight from road to rail. Other challenges are emerging in the rail industry. The Scottish Executive will play a full part in a range of matters that directly impact on the quality of service that is delivered to rail passengers in Scotland. The transfer of executive functions and legislative competence to the Scottish Parliament and Executive will give us the means to do that. In the meantime, I have established solid working relationships with the shadow strategic rail authority and the Office of the Rail Regulator in advance of formal powers being conferred to the Scottish ministers. Both Sir Alastair Morton, chairman of the shadow authority, and Tom Winsor, the Rail Regulator, have stated publicly that they will take a very close interest in the development of railways in Scotland. Railways are a vital part of an integrated transport policy for Scotland. This year alone, more than £200 million of public money is being spent on Scottish rail passenger services. Without that level of support, the rail industry would be unable to invest in new trains, track and signalling. The recent introduction of the 15-minute interval Edinburgh to Glasgow Queen Street service is the latest example of how public money helps to generate improved services. The rail network can, and does, reduce road congestion, help to reduce the negative environmental impact of cars and lorries, and provides fast, increasingly comfortable, punctual and reliable links between most of the country's principal cities and towns. I know that there is much to be done. The measures in the Railways Bill give the Scottish Executive the powers to ensure that the rail industry works in partnership with Government to help to deliver a better deal for passengers.", "EditedTextHTML": "With permission, Sir David, I will make a statement about the devolution of executive functions for railways to the Scottish ministers, for which provision has been made in the UK Railways Bill.

Before I turn to the main purpose of my statement, I wish to register my own shock and horror regarding the appalling events outside Paddington on Tuesday. Yesterday, as a Parliament, we passed on our condolences to the families and friends of the people who were killed or injured in that terrible accident. As transport minister, I wish to take this opportunity to reiterate that the safety of everyone who travels on public transport is a primary concern of the Scottish Executive.

Rail safety is an issue on which we need consistent standards across the whole UK. The Scottish Executive is, therefore, in regular contact with the Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions, the Health and Safety Executive, Her Majesty's railway inspectorate, the Rail Regulator and the British Transport Police on matters relating to rail safety in Scotland.

Earlier today, Gus Macdonald gave me clear assurances that any lessons learned from the public inquiry into Tuesday's accident will be applied in Scotland as uniformly as they will be throughout the rest of Britain. The rail industry in Scotland has already committed itself to investing in improved safety across the network, aimed at further reducing the chances of accidents. Although Scotland's recent rail safety record has been comparatively good, that should in no way be grounds for complacency. We will work with the industry in Scotland and UK transport safety agencies to ensure that rail safety standards continue to improve and passenger confidence in rail travel is restored.

On 7 July, I wrote to all members of the Scottish Parliament outlining arrangements for transferring a number of executive functions to Scottish ministers through provisions made in the Railways Bill introduced at Westminster the same day. When the bill was introduced, the Scottish Parliament was in recess, so I made a commitment to make a statement on these matters to members once they reconvened this

autumn. Today, I am honouring that commitment.

Members will recall that on 31 March last year— during the passage of the Scotland Bill—Henry McLeish announced in the House of Commons that a significant and extensive range of legislative competence and executive functions dealing with railways would be transferred to the Scottish Parliament and Executive.

At the time, there was considerable debate about the future of the railways across Britain. The UK Government had already committed itself to reforming the structures that regulated and managed the privatised rail industry. It had stated that legislation would be introduced to give statutory weight to its commitment to secure a better deal for rail passengers.

Our priorities are to ensure that the railways are operated safely, securely, efficiently and in the public interest. We believe that core standards need to be common in all parts of the UK. I also believe that a number of key functions that affect the type of service that is delivered to rail passengers in Scotland should be held by the Scottish ministers.

Provision for those functions has been made in the UK Railways Bill. The bill is intended to deliver the devolution of executive powers over the issuing of directions and guidance to the strategic rail authority in relation to passenger rail services that start and end in Scotland and are provided under a franchise agreement; and over the issuing of directions and guidance to the SRA in relation to passenger rail sleeper services that start or end in Scotland and are provided under a franchise agreement by an operator who also provides passenger rail services that start and end in Scotland.

Those functions are to be exercised within a Great Britain strategic policy framework for the railways. That will ensure that standards of performance management, operation, safety and security are applied consistently across the rail industry.

In addition to directions and guidance to the SRA, the bill also reaffirms the authority of the Scottish ministers to make freight facilities grants and track access grants in Scotland within the new statutory arrangements and overall GB policy.

In my letter to MSPs on 7 July, I explained why it had been decided to transfer those functions by making provision for them in the UK Railways Bill. Usually, the transfer of executive functions would be achieved through the use of orders under section 63 of the Scotland Act 1998. Such orders require the approval of both Parliaments. Indeed, a number of railway functions have already been transferred to the Scottish ministers in that way.

However, in the case of the executive functions dealing with directions and guidance and freight grants, Scottish ministers agreed with the UK Government that, in this instance, it would be more straightforward and transparent to provide in the bill for the transfer to the Scottish ministers. The normal route for transferring functions to the Scottish ministers remains orders under the Scotland Act 1998, over which this Parliament will have control.

The transfer of executive functions that is provided for in the UK Railways Bill is one part of the agreed devolution package for railways. It may be helpful to members if I indicate the current position on the other components of the package.

The Scotland Act 1998 already provides for the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament to give certain grants for passenger rail services. Further legislative competence for the rail responsibilities of Strathclyde Passenger Transport Executive, and for the authorisation of proposals for the construction of new railways in Scotland, will be devolved to the Scottish Parliament by order under section 30 of the Scotland Act 1998, again subject to the approval of this Parliament.

The executive devolution order made under section 63 of the Scotland Act 1998, which was approved by both Parliaments in June, devolved executive responsibility for the administration of rail freight grants. That order, with an order under section 89 of the Scotland Act 1998, which has also been approved by this Parliament, also transferred to the Scottish ministers the responsibility for appointing the chair of the Rail Users Consultative Committee for Scotland. The order also requires the Office of the Rail Regulator to consult the Scottish ministers on the appointment of new members to that committee.

Furthermore, the order requires the Scottish ministers to lay the reports of the Rail Users Consultative Committee for Scotland, the Central Rail Users Consultative Committee, the franchising director and the Rail Regulator before the Scottish Parliament.

Arrangements are also being put in place to transfer to the Scottish Executive the finances to pay for the passenger rail services that are currently provided by ScotRail under the terms of its franchise.

The implementation of the first components of this package is already reaping dividends for Scotland's railways. The ministerial authority to make freight grants has enabled the Scottish Executive to make three major awards totalling more than £6.5 million since 1 July. Those awards have already made a major contribution to the \"Partnership for Scotland\" commitment, which was

reaffirmed in \"Making it Work Together\", to transfer freight from road to rail.

Other challenges are emerging in the rail industry. The Scottish Executive will play a full part in a range of matters that directly impact on the quality of service that is delivered to rail passengers in Scotland. The transfer of executive functions and legislative competence to the Scottish Parliament and Executive will give us the means to do that.

In the meantime, I have established solid working relationships with the shadow strategic rail authority and the Office of the Rail Regulator in advance of formal powers being conferred to the Scottish ministers. Both Sir Alastair Morton, chairman of the shadow authority, and Tom Winsor, the Rail Regulator, have stated publicly that they will take a very close interest in the development of railways in Scotland.

Railways are a vital part of an integrated transport policy for Scotland. This year alone, more than £200 million of public money is being spent on Scottish rail passenger services. Without that level of support, the rail industry would be unable to invest in new trains, track and signalling. The recent introduction of the 15-minute interval Edinburgh to Glasgow Queen Street service is the latest example of how public money helps to generate improved services.

The rail network can, and does, reduce road congestion, help to reduce the negative environmental impact of cars and lorries, and provides fast, increasingly comfortable, punctual and reliable links between most of the country's principal cities and towns.

I know that there is much to be done. The measures in the Railways Bill give the Scottish Executive the powers to ensure that the rail industry works in partnership with Government to help to deliver a better deal for passengers.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:13.3570755+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2180E179P471C709640", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26915, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 468.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26916, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 469.0, "QuestionHeading": "Fishing Industry", "QuestionHeadingID": 26930, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 613.0, "DisplayOrder": 613.0, "ID": 26930, "ParentID": 26916 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lochhead, Richard", "ID": 2180, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Lochhead", "SpeakerDisplayName": "15. Richard Lochhead (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 614.0, "ContributionID": 709640, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it has conveyed to the Secretary of State for Scotland the fishing industry's concerns relating to the Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries Order (SI 1999/1126) as resolved by the Parliament on 3 June 1999 under motion S1M-19 as amended and, if so, whether it intends to inform the fishing industry and the Parliament of the Secretary of State's response. (S1O-427) The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs (Mr John Home Robertson): The Minister for Rural Affairs wrote to the Secretary of State for Scotland on 20 June, and the secretary of state met representatives of the fisheries industry on 24 June to discuss the issue. The secretary of state wrote to the Scottish Fishermen's Federation on 13 July. My department has reported on that correspondence to the Rural Affairs Committee, and copies of the correspondence are available in the Scottish Parliament information centre.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it has conveyed to the Secretary of State for Scotland the fishing industry's concerns relating to the Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries Order (SI 1999/1126) as resolved by the Parliament on 3 June 1999 under motion S1M-19 as amended and, if so, whether it intends to inform the fishing industry and the Parliament of the Secretary of State's response. (S1O-427) The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs (Mr John Home Robertson): The Minister for Rural Affairs wrote to the Secretary of State for Scotland on 20 June, and the secretary of state met representatives of the fisheries industry on 24 June to discuss the issue. The secretary of state wrote to the Scottish Fishermen's Federation on 13 July. My department has reported on that correspondence to the Rural Affairs Committee, and copies of the correspondence are available in the Scottish Parliament information centre.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:44.0221047+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2180E179P471C709641", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26915, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 468.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26916, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 469.0, "QuestionHeading": "Fishing Industry", "QuestionHeadingID": 26930, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 613.0, "DisplayOrder": 613.0, "ID": 26930, "ParentID": 26916 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lochhead, Richard", "ID": 2180, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Lochhead", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Richard Lochhead: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 616.0, "ContributionID": 709641, "EditedText": "Given that it has been four months since the issue was raised in Parliament and Ross Finnie was requested to make representations to the Secretary of State for Scotland on behalf of the fishing industry, and it is six weeks since I lodged a parliamentary question—which remains unanswered—asking for some feedback on how the minister got on with the secretary of state, does not John Home Robertson feel that he should take the matter a little more seriously and help the fishermen whom he is supposed to represent?", "EditedTextHTML": "Given that it has been four months since the issue was raised in Parliament and Ross Finnie was requested to make representations to the Secretary of State for Scotland on behalf of the fishing industry, and it is six weeks since I lodged a parliamentary question—which remains unanswered—asking for some feedback on how the minister got on with the secretary of state, does not John Home Robertson feel that he should take the matter a little more seriously and help the fishermen whom he is supposed to represent?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:44.0221047+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1756E184P464C709459", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Grahame, Christine", "ID": 1756, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Christine Grahame", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Christine Grahame: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 223.0, "ContributionID": 709459, "EditedText": "I hear what Mr McNulty says about transparency. He says that there should be accountability and that Parliament should be able to scrutinise the operation of the concordats. How on earth are we to do that? On page 8 of the memorandum of understanding, under the heading \"Confidentiality and Public Statements\", paragraph A1.11 states: \"The proceedings of each meeting of the JMC will be regarded as confidential by the participants, in order to permit free and candid discussion. However, the holding of the JMC meetings may be made known publicly, and there may be occasions on which the Committee will wish to issue a public statement on the outcome of its discussions.\" If only the holding of meetings may be made known publicly, how on earth can such arrangements allow us to scrutinise anything?", "EditedTextHTML": "I hear what Mr McNulty says about transparency. He says that there should be accountability and that Parliament should be able to scrutinise the operation of the concordats. How on earth are we to do that? On page 8 of the memorandum of understanding, under the heading \"Confidentiality and Public Statements\", paragraph A1.11 states:

\"The proceedings of each meeting of the JMC will be regarded as confidential by the participants, in order to permit free and candid discussion. However, the holding of the JMC meetings may be made known publicly, and there may be occasions on which the Committee will wish to issue a public statement on the outcome of its discussions.\"

If only the holding of meetings may be made known publicly, how on earth can such arrangements allow us to scrutinise anything?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:00:47.4219837+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1756E184P464C709698", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Railways", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26938, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 719.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 719.0, "ID": 26938, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Grahame, Christine", "ID": 1756, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Christine Grahame", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 739.0, "ContributionID": 709698, "EditedText": "As the minister is aware, there are no railways in the Borders. Will she join me in giving support for the Campaign for Borders Rail, which is campaigning for the Waverley line, as it is commonly known? That line is considered a necessity by Scottish Borders Enterprise for the economic recovery of the Borders. Will she tell me where, in her statement, I am told how it will be constructed and—crucially—how she will fund it?", "EditedTextHTML": "As the minister is aware, there are no railways in the Borders. Will she join me in giving support for the Campaign for Borders Rail, which is campaigning for the Waverley line, as it is commonly known? That line is considered a necessity by Scottish Borders Enterprise for the economic recovery of the Borders. Will she tell me where, in her statement, I am told how it will be constructed and—crucially—how she will fund it?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:01:13.4086808+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709351", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Thursday 7 October 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26912, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26912, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 2.0, "ContributionID": 709351, "EditedText": "THE PRESIDING OFFICER opened the meeting at 09:32", "EditedTextHTML": "[THE PRESIDING OFFICER opened the meeting at 09:32]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709352", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 4.0, "ContributionID": 709352, "EditedText": "Our business this morning is a debate on a motion on the memorandum of understanding and an amendment lodged by the Scottish National party.", "EditedTextHTML": "Our business this morning is a debate on a motion on the memorandum of understanding and an amendment lodged by the Scottish National party.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C709363", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 27.0, "ContributionID": 709363, "EditedText": "Opening.", "EditedTextHTML": "Opening.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C709365", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 31.0, "ContributionID": 709365, "EditedText": "Opening—worse still. Do not give me all the bad news at once. I am sorry to see this: I thought that John Swinney was here to substitute for Alex Salmond, but Alex Salmond must be rather stuck if he has had recourse to Alex Neil, but there we are. MEMBERS: \"Aw.\" Oh, come on. I make a serious point. The documents have been misunderstood and, on occasion, misrepresented. There is no cause for that. They come before the Parliament totally and exactly as advertised. John Swinney has been reading back through Hansard. He will remember that, as far back as October 1998, John Sewel stated: \"They will cover a range of matters, such as procedures for the exchange of information, advance notification and joint working.\" The concordats deliver that promise. He also said:\"These are, of course, working documents intended to aid the process of efficient administration\"—Official Report, House of Lords, 6 October 1998; Vol 593, c 391-92. That remains their purpose. My contention is that we have delivered what was promised: sensible, workmanlike documents, based on common sense. There will be those in this chamber who will claim, with various degrees of indignation, and sometimes even insincerity—but normally, I concede, with sincerity—that the documents do not conform to contract. The nationalists, consistent in this argument, have determinedly imported their own definitions and their own design for the future—a totally separate nation state—as a template against which to judge these concordats. That is a totally unreasonable position to take. No doubt, there will be a continuing argument about whether to go down that road. But what happened is that people voted for the devolution settlement; Parliament passed and endorsed the devolution settlement; even the Conservative party—I congratulate them—at least allege that they are converts to the principles of devolution. The documents, properly and understandably, reflect the requirements of the devolution settlement.", "EditedTextHTML": "Opening—worse still. Do not give me all the bad news at once.

I am sorry to see this: I thought that John Swinney was here to substitute for Alex Salmond, but Alex Salmond must be rather stuck if he has had recourse to Alex Neil, but there we are. [MEMBERS: \"Aw.\"] Oh, come on.

I make a serious point. The documents have been misunderstood and, on occasion, misrepresented. There is no cause for that. They come before the Parliament totally and exactly as advertised.

John Swinney has been reading back through Hansard. He will remember that, as far back as October 1998, John Sewel stated:

\"They will cover a range of matters, such as procedures for the exchange of information, advance notification and joint working.\"

The concordats deliver that promise. He also said:

\"These are, of course, working documents intended to aid the process of efficient administration\"—[Official Report, House of Lords, 6 October 1998; Vol 593, c 391-92.]

That remains their purpose. My contention is that we have delivered what was promised: sensible, workmanlike documents, based on common sense. There will be those in this chamber who will claim, with various degrees of indignation, and sometimes even insincerity—but normally, I concede, with sincerity—that the documents do not conform to contract.

The nationalists, consistent in this argument, have determinedly imported their own definitions and their own design for the future—a totally separate nation state—as a template against which to judge these concordats. That is a totally unreasonable position to take. No doubt, there will be a continuing argument about whether to go down that road. But what happened is that people voted for the devolution settlement; Parliament passed and endorsed the devolution settlement; even the Conservative party—I congratulate them—at least allege that they are converts to the principles of devolution. The documents, properly and understandably, reflect the requirements of the devolution settlement.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1821E295P538C709366", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Mrs Margaret", "ID": 1821, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Moray" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Margaret Ewing (Moray) (SNP) rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 33.0, "ContributionID": 709366, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1821E295P538C709368", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Mrs Margaret", "ID": 1821, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Moray" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 37.0, "ContributionID": 709368, "EditedText": "I make no pretence, as Donald Dewar knows, about my strong and long-standing commitment to independence. I am concerned that the documents seem solely to relate to an Administration, not to the Parliament, which represents the views of the Scottish people. Where is the role of this Parliament in discussions of the concordats and of how they may develop?", "EditedTextHTML": "I make no pretence, as Donald Dewar knows, about my strong and long-standing commitment to independence. I am concerned that the documents seem solely to relate to an Administration, not to the Parliament, which represents the views of the Scottish people.

Where is the role of this Parliament in discussions of the concordats and of how they may develop?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C709369", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 39.0, "ContributionID": 709369, "EditedText": "Where is its role? We are actually discussing the documents at the moment. It seems slightly perverse for Margaret Ewing to ask, \"What is our role?\" when we are having a debate on the documents. I do not know, but there is likely to be a division later today on my motion. That is a classic example of misinterpreting what the documents are about. They are working documents, laying down a ground rule—a framework—within which Administrations operate. The exchange of statistical information, for example, is perhaps not enormously exciting in a political sense, but the end product is of great importance. We must be able to get the information that we need; we must have a duty to contribute the information that the Administrations want. To set out rules to govern that seems to be entirely sensible and straightforward. I say again to Margaret Ewing that she is misinterpreting the essential purpose of the documents and is trying to erect another set of criteria which they were never intended to meet.", "EditedTextHTML": "Where is its role? We are actually discussing the documents at the moment. It seems slightly perverse for Margaret Ewing to ask, \"What is our role?\" when we are having a debate on the documents. I do not know, but there is likely to be a division later today on my motion. That is a classic example of misinterpreting what the documents are about. They are working documents, laying down a ground rule—a framework—within which Administrations operate. The exchange of statistical information, for example, is perhaps not enormously exciting in a political sense, but the end product is of great importance.

We must be able to get the information that we need; we must have a duty to contribute the information that the Administrations want. To set out rules to govern that seems to be entirely sensible and straightforward.

I say again to Margaret Ewing that she is misinterpreting the essential purpose of the documents and is trying to erect another set of criteria which they were never intended to meet.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1828E200P487C709371", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacDonald, Margo", "ID": 1828, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margo MacDonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Margo MacDonald (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 43.0, "ContributionID": 709371, "EditedText": "Will the First Minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the First Minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C709375", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 51.0, "ContributionID": 709375, "EditedText": "Of course they have. I have made the point that before 1 July, when I was still Scottish secretary, officials from the Scottish Office were involved in the bilateral discussions and that that has continued since 1 July under John Reid. The concordats then came to us for final approval and have now been brought before this Parliament as a courtesy, because I believe that it is right that there should be a debate on them and that they should be endorsed by the Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "Of course they have. I have made the point that before 1 July, when I was still Scottish secretary, officials from the Scottish Office were involved in the bilateral discussions and that that has continued since 1 July under John Reid. The concordats then came to us for final approval and have now been brought before this Parliament as a courtesy, because I believe that it is right that there should be a debate on them and that they should be endorsed by the Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C709378", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 57.0, "ContributionID": 709378, "EditedText": "Are the First Minister and Hugh Henry trying to kid us on that the concordats were reached jointly? In an answer that I received from the First Minister on 1 October, he said that the UK Government had prepared the drafts.", "EditedTextHTML": "Are the First Minister and Hugh Henry trying to kid us on that the concordats were reached jointly? In an answer that I received from the First Minister on 1 October, he said that the UK Government had prepared the drafts.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C709383", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 67.0, "ContributionID": 709383, "EditedText": "No. The Presiding Officer will take me to task in his extremely polite, but somewhat damaging, way if I continue a running dialogue with the member. The documents are not rules for procedure, designed for a nation state that is living uncomfortably with a partner that has recently been relegated to the status of next-door neighbour. As I have stressed, the Scottish people voted for devolution—not independence—and to retain the significant advantages that come from being part of the United Kingdom. That is the basis on which the arrangements described in the document have been constructed and on which the document should be judged. The concordats are about delivering on our promises to the people of Scotland. They are about different Administrations recognising their responsibilities. That is why they should be welcomed. I will say a brief word or two about the five concordats that comprise the package. The memorandum of understanding sets out the main principles to be followed: consultation; early warning; joint working; and confidentiality, such as is needed to ensure free and candid discussion. Detailed arrangements for the joint ministerial committee are set out in an annexe. The committee will bring together ministers from all the United Kingdom's devolved Administrations and from the United Kingdom Government. The committee will consider reserved matters that have an impact on the Executive's responsibilities and devolved matters that have an impact on reserved areas. Meetings can be called by any of the members. The United Kingdom specifically recognises the need to involve devolved Administrations early in discussions on, for example, European Union negotiations. If bilateral discussions between officials or individual ministers leave unanswered questions, the joint ministerial committee will allow wider discussion of issues. The committee is a sensible and specific piece of machinery that will help to bind together the working relationships that we need. Foreign policy, including European Union issues, is a reserved matter. However, many devolved areas have a major EU element; for example, agriculture, fishing and the environment. It is, therefore, important to have in place an agreement on how such issues should be handled. The relevant concordat covers how to deal with exchange of information, mechanisms for agreeing a UK line, attendance at EU meetings and less formal contacts with EU institutions. It also details how to proceed on implementation and infraction issues. It would be chaos if we did not have such understandings and agreements.", "EditedTextHTML": "No. The Presiding Officer will take me to task in his extremely polite, but somewhat damaging, way if I continue a running dialogue with the member.

The documents are not rules for procedure, designed for a nation state that is living uncomfortably with a partner that has recently been relegated to the status of next-door neighbour. As I have stressed, the Scottish people voted for devolution—not independence—and to retain the significant advantages that come from being part of the United Kingdom. That is the basis on which the arrangements described in the document have been constructed and on which the document should be judged. The concordats are about delivering on our promises to the people of Scotland. They are about different

Administrations recognising their responsibilities. That is why they should be welcomed.

I will say a brief word or two about the five concordats that comprise the package. The memorandum of understanding sets out the main principles to be followed: consultation; early warning; joint working; and confidentiality, such as is needed to ensure free and candid discussion.

Detailed arrangements for the joint ministerial committee are set out in an annexe. The committee will bring together ministers from all the United Kingdom's devolved Administrations and from the United Kingdom Government. The committee will consider reserved matters that have an impact on the Executive's responsibilities and devolved matters that have an impact on reserved areas. Meetings can be called by any of the members.

The United Kingdom specifically recognises the need to involve devolved Administrations early in discussions on, for example, European Union negotiations. If bilateral discussions between officials or individual ministers leave unanswered questions, the joint ministerial committee will allow wider discussion of issues. The committee is a sensible and specific piece of machinery that will help to bind together the working relationships that we need.

Foreign policy, including European Union issues, is a reserved matter. However, many devolved areas have a major EU element; for example, agriculture, fishing and the environment. It is, therefore, important to have in place an agreement on how such issues should be handled. The relevant concordat covers how to deal with exchange of information, mechanisms for agreeing a UK line, attendance at EU meetings and less formal contacts with EU institutions. It also details how to proceed on implementation and infraction issues. It would be chaos if we did not have such understandings and agreements.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1878E208P502C709384", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Dr Winnie", "ID": 1878, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Winnie Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Winnie Ewing (Highlands and Islands) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 69.0, "ContributionID": 709384, "EditedText": "Will the First Minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the First Minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C709393", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 87.0, "ContributionID": 709393, "EditedText": "On a point of order, Presiding Officer.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order, Presiding Officer.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709396", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 93.0, "ContributionID": 709396, "EditedText": "Further to Mr Swinney's point of order, under rule 8.5.1 of the standing orders, I propose to accept the amendment in the name of Donald Dewar, which has to be put to the chamber and will be voted on at 5 o'clock. I have accepted that amendment, so the amendment and the motion are in play. Mr Dewar, with great generosity, did not point out that the same mistake appears in the SNP amendment. I invite Mr Swinney, when he concludes his speech, to move the manuscript amendment that I have received in his and in others' names to insert the same words. Interruption. I beg your pardon. Alex Neil will move the SNP amendment. The drafting amendment must be moved first, before moving the amendment that is in today's business papers, so that, when we come to decision time at 5 o'clock, we will be in order. Is that clear, Mr Tosh?", "EditedTextHTML": "Further to Mr Swinney's point of order, under rule 8.5.1 of the standing orders, I propose to accept the amendment in the name of Donald Dewar, which has to be put to the chamber and will be voted on at 5 o'clock. I have accepted that amendment, so the amendment and the motion are in play.

Mr Dewar, with great generosity, did not point out that the same mistake appears in the SNP amendment. I invite Mr Swinney, when he concludes his speech, to move the manuscript amendment that I have received in his and in others' names to insert the same words. [Interruption.] I beg your pardon. Alex Neil will move the SNP amendment. The drafting amendment must be moved first, before moving the amendment that is in today's business papers, so that, when we come to decision time at 5 o'clock, we will be in order.

Is that clear, Mr Tosh?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C709401", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 104.0, "ContributionID": 709401, "EditedText": "I agree with the First Minister on one point only. A good-neighbour policy is the underlying principle that should govern the relationships between the peoples, the Parliaments and the Governments of the British isles. It is not in anyone's interest in Scotland, England, Ireland or Wales for there to be any rancour or resentment, acrimony or aggro between the peoples of these islands. We must treat one another with respect and dignity and cooperate where co-operation is essential and beneficial. One of the reasons why I am in favour of independence is that I believe—and I disagree with the First Minister on this point—that, if Scotland had equal constitutional status with every other nation in Europe, that would enhance and improve our relationship both with London and with the other parts of the British isles. That debate is for another day, however.", "EditedTextHTML": "I agree with the First Minister on one point only. A good-neighbour policy is the underlying principle that should govern the relationships between the peoples, the Parliaments and the Governments of the British isles. It is not in anyone's interest in Scotland, England, Ireland or Wales for there to be any rancour or resentment, acrimony or aggro between the peoples of these islands. We must treat one another with respect and dignity and co

operate where co-operation is essential and beneficial.

One of the reasons why I am in favour of independence is that I believe—and I disagree with the First Minister on this point—that, if Scotland had equal constitutional status with every other nation in Europe, that would enhance and improve our relationship both with London and with the other parts of the British isles. That debate is for another day, however.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2029E47P167C709402", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Henry, Hugh", "ID": 2029, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Hugh Henry", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Hugh Henry: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 106.0, "ContributionID": 709402, "EditedText": "Alex Neil has said that the concordats are heavily weighted towards London's interests—I presume that he means the UK Government's interests. Will he say whether the SNP believes that there are instances where London's interests would coincide with Scotland's, and, if so, will he specify those instances?", "EditedTextHTML": "Alex Neil has said that the concordats are heavily weighted towards London's interests—I presume that he means the UK Government's interests. Will he say whether the SNP believes that there are instances where London's interests would coincide with Scotland's, and, if so, will he specify those instances?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C709405", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 112.0, "ContributionID": 709405, "EditedText": "Absolutely. There are many instances of that, not least on international and European affairs. When Scotland becomes an independent member of the European Union, the United Nations and many other international bodies, there will be many times when we will not only vote with each other, but work together to provide a solution that is beneficial to Scotland, England, Wales, Ireland and every other nation in Europe. I am absolutely sure about that. Today's debate is not about independence or devolution. It is about establishing whether the memorandum of understanding and the concordats achieve the objectives that the First Minister set out in his speech. My first concern is how the Scottish Executive has treated—or to be more accurate, maltreated— the Parliament in the way in which the concordats have been drawn up. There is no doubt that the concordats have been drafted in London and in secrecy. At no time has the Parliament been given the opportunity to input its ideas on the agreements, nor have we been consulted on their content. Indeed, until last Friday, we had not even been informed about the subject areas that the concordats would cover. That flies in the face of the open-government policy that was supposed to be the foundation stone of the Parliament. As the Sunday Herald rightly said last week of the agreements: \"Surely this is a constitutional issue and therefore ought to be debated by all parties to ensure that the rules will endure.\" I will not go into the spelling of \"en-Dewar\".The concordats were drafted in London and amendments were then submitted by the Scottish Executive. The Scottish Parliament has seen neither the original drafts from London nor the Scottish Executive's proposed amendments. We do not know what those amendments were, or whether they were accepted or rejected; if they were rejected, we do not know why. This Parliament is entitled to know those things. Why has the Scottish Executive refused to answer even the most basic questions raised by members about the negotiations? I have tried to make my questions as simple as possible, but my question from, I think, 14 September—I asked for a list of the subject areas that the concordats would cover—met with what has become the Scottish Executive's usual reply, which is that the minister will reply as soon as possible. The minister has still not replied. A particular complaint, which is probably shared across the chamber, concerns the way in which the Scottish Executive refused to give any advance copies of the concordats to members of this Parliament before the press conference that the First Minister and his close friend the Secretary of State for Scotland held at 11.30 am last Friday. Such a practice would be totally alien to the spirit, if not the letter, of the Executive's code on access to information; it is certainly contrary to both the spirit and the letter of the all- party agreement on how the Parliament should work that was reached through the constitutional steering group.", "EditedTextHTML": "Absolutely. There are many instances of that, not least on international and European affairs. When Scotland becomes an independent member of the European Union, the United Nations and many other international bodies, there will be many times when we will not only vote with each other, but work together to provide a solution that is beneficial to Scotland, England, Wales, Ireland and every other nation in Europe. I am absolutely sure about that.

Today's debate is not about independence or devolution. It is about establishing whether the memorandum of understanding and the concordats achieve the objectives that the First Minister set out in his speech.

My first concern is how the Scottish Executive has treated—or to be more accurate, maltreated— the Parliament in the way in which the concordats have been drawn up. There is no doubt that the concordats have been drafted in London and in secrecy. At no time has the Parliament been given the opportunity to input its ideas on the agreements, nor have we been consulted on their content. Indeed, until last Friday, we had not even been informed about the subject areas that the concordats would cover. That flies in the face of the open-government policy that was supposed to be the foundation stone of the Parliament. As the Sunday Herald rightly said last week of the agreements:

\"Surely this is a constitutional issue and therefore ought to be debated by all parties to ensure that the rules will endure.\"

I will not go into the spelling of \"en-Dewar\".

The concordats were drafted in London and amendments were then submitted by the Scottish Executive. The Scottish Parliament has seen neither the original drafts from London nor the Scottish Executive's proposed amendments. We do not know what those amendments were, or whether they were accepted or rejected; if they were rejected, we do not know why. This Parliament is entitled to know those things. Why has the Scottish Executive refused to answer even the most basic questions raised by members about the negotiations? I have tried to make my questions as simple as possible, but my question from, I think, 14 September—I asked for a list of the subject areas that the concordats would cover—met with what has become the Scottish Executive's usual reply, which is that the minister will reply as soon as possible. The minister has still not replied.

A particular complaint, which is probably shared across the chamber, concerns the way in which the Scottish Executive refused to give any advance copies of the concordats to members of this Parliament before the press conference that the First Minister and his close friend the Secretary of State for Scotland held at 11.30 am last Friday. Such a practice would be totally alien to the spirit, if not the letter, of the Executive's code on access to information; it is certainly contrary to both the spirit and the letter of the all- party agreement on how the Parliament should work that was reached through the constitutional steering group.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C709414", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 130.0, "ContributionID": 709414, "EditedText": "I have given way to the First Minister rather a lot, but I will do so again.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have given way to the First Minister rather a lot, but I will do so again.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1821E295P538C709420", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Mrs Margaret", "ID": 1821, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Moray" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Margaret Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 143.0, "ContributionID": 709420, "EditedText": "Not even the voters?", "EditedTextHTML": "Not even the voters?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709430", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 163.0, "ContributionID": 709430, "EditedText": "Order. I know that the two members are sitting close together, but we must have a debate through the Presiding Officer. This cosy relationship has got to stop.", "EditedTextHTML": "Order. I know that the two members are sitting close together, but we must have a debate through the Presiding Officer. This cosy relationship has got to stop.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C709433", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Goldie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 169.0, "ContributionID": 709433, "EditedText": "Mr Neil tempts me, as he often does. Laughter. Suffice it to say, I expect that these concordats are meant to be—and have to be—flexible in content and intent. Without a crystal ball, I am unable to say what exactly a Conservative Administration would do, but I shall bear in mind Alex Neil's helpful suggestion. Interruption. He has now made me lose my bit of paper.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Neil tempts me, as he often does. [Laughter.] Suffice it to say, I expect that these concordats are meant to be—and have to be—flexible in content and intent. Without a crystal ball, I am unable to say what exactly a Conservative Administration would do, but I shall bear in mind Alex Neil's helpful suggestion. [Interruption.] He has now made me lose my bit of paper.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C709436", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ms Patricia Ferguson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 175.0, "ContributionID": 709436, "EditedText": "I remind members who want to participate in the debate that they should press their request-to-speak buttons now. There will be a four-minute limit on speeches.", "EditedTextHTML": "I remind members who want to participate in the debate that they should press their request-to-speak buttons now. There will be a four-minute limit on speeches.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C709437", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon (Argyll and Bute) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 178.0, "ContributionID": 709437, "EditedText": "On behalf of the Scottish Liberal Democrats, welcome the publication of the concordats, which lay out the details of the relationship between the Parliaments of the United Kingdom, including Northern Ireland. Of course, we hope that at some stage there will be a parliament in Northern Ireland that can take part in that relationship and use the concordats. The concordats establish once and for all that the relationship in question is between Parliaments—minister to minister and department to department. The document clearly states that there is no role in the relationship for the secretaries of state, except to promote good relations between the UK Government and the respective devolved bodies.", "EditedTextHTML": "On behalf of the Scottish Liberal Democrats, welcome the publication of the concordats, which lay out the details of the relationship between the

Parliaments of the United Kingdom, including Northern Ireland. Of course, we hope that at some stage there will be a parliament in Northern Ireland that can take part in that relationship and use the concordats.

The concordats establish once and for all that the relationship in question is between Parliaments—minister to minister and department to department. The document clearly states that there is no role in the relationship for the secretaries of state, except to promote good relations between the UK Government and the respective devolved bodies.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C709442", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bruce Crawford (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP) rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 188.0, "ContributionID": 709442, "EditedText": "Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP)rose—", "EditedTextHTML": "

Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP)

rose—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1821E295P538C709446", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Mrs Margaret", "ID": 1821, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Moray" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 196.0, "ContributionID": 709446, "EditedText": "Answer the question.", "EditedTextHTML": "Answer the question.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1970E66P288C709452", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNulty, Des", "ID": 1970, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Clydebank and Milngavie" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Des McNulty", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Des McNulty (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 209.0, "ContributionID": 709452, "EditedText": "Like George Lyon, I welcome the opportunity to discuss the concordats, and I appreciate his comments on particular aspects of them. Before I go on to do the same, however, I want to mention the contributions from Alex Neil and Annabel Goldie. They could have talked about the specifics of the concordats, but Alex Neil's speech seemed to be based on the premise that we are not partners in the UK. He talked as if the only mechanism through which the interests of Scotland could be represented was through this Parliament. That is not the case. We have 72 Scottish MPs at the UK Parliament at Westminster, and a number of UK ministers are Scottish MPs.", "EditedTextHTML": "Like George Lyon, I welcome the opportunity to discuss the concordats, and I appreciate his comments on particular aspects of them.

Before I go on to do the same, however, I want to mention the contributions from Alex Neil and Annabel Goldie. They could have talked about the specifics of the concordats, but Alex Neil's speech seemed to be based on the premise that we are not partners in the UK. He talked as if the only mechanism through which the interests of Scotland could be represented was through this Parliament. That is not the case. We have 72 Scottish MPs at the UK Parliament at Westminster, and a number of UK ministers are Scottish MPs.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1970E66P288C709454", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNulty, Des", "ID": 1970, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Clydebank and Milngavie" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Des McNulty", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Des McNulty: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 213.0, "ContributionID": 709454, "EditedText": "Our interests are represented through that process as they are represented by the Scottish Executive. The real issue is how we can manage and co-ordinate that representation effectively. In response to what Annabel said, it seems to me that, rather than being a secret process, the concordats are a demonstration of transparency. The documents set out the way in which decisions will be arrived at and the administrative arrangements for taking issues forward.", "EditedTextHTML": "Our interests are represented through that process as they are represented by the Scottish Executive. The real issue is how we can manage and co-ordinate that representation effectively.

In response to what Annabel said, it seems to me that, rather than being a secret process, the concordats are a demonstration of transparency. The documents set out the way in which decisions will be arrived at and the administrative arrangements for taking issues forward.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C709457", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 219.0, "ContributionID": 709457, "EditedText": "I am sure that we understand that point, but there is a broader question that goes beyond that. In the House of Commons, there is a clear mechanism for on-going scrutiny but, in this Parliament, there is not. The operation of the concordats might be looked at by committees, but there is no committee with a remit to scrutinise the on-going work of this particular area of government.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sure that we understand that point, but there is a broader question that goes beyond that. In the House of Commons, there is a clear mechanism for on-going scrutiny but, in this

Parliament, there is not. The operation of the concordats might be looked at by committees, but there is no committee with a remit to scrutinise the on-going work of this particular area of government.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C709464", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice (Mr Jim Wallace) rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 234.0, "ContributionID": 709464, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C709467", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 240.0, "ContributionID": 709467, "EditedText": "Has Margaret Ewing read the Scotland Act 1998? Could she explain to me what is in the sentence she has read out that is not in that act, which she voted for?", "EditedTextHTML": "Has Margaret Ewing read the Scotland Act 1998? Could she explain to me what is in the sentence she has read out that is not in that act, which she voted for?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C709475", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 258.0, "ContributionID": 709475, "EditedText": "Surely the key point is that legislation is usually initiated by the Administrations. Therefore, if the Administrations between them agree on a legislative priority, such as fishing rights, which results in legislation, the process starts with the Administrations.", "EditedTextHTML": "Surely the key point is that legislation is usually initiated by the Administrations. Therefore, if the Administrations between them agree on a legislative priority, such as fishing rights, which results in legislation, the process starts with the Administrations.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C709482", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 273.0, "ContributionID": 709482, "EditedText": "Mr Crawford started talking about European Union policy. I might as well deal with the question he raised. I draw his attention to paragraph B1.3 in the document, which I am sure he has read. It states: \"However, the UK Government wishes to involve the Scottish Executive as directly and fully as possible in decision making on EU matters which touch on devolved areas (including non-devolved matters which impact on devolved areas and non-devolved matters which will have a distinctive impact of importance in Scotland).\" Those are all matters on which we can, if we are so minded, engage in discussion and policy formulation in the European Union context.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Crawford started talking about European Union policy. I might as well deal with the question he raised. I draw his attention to paragraph B1.3 in the document, which I am sure he has read. It states:

\"However, the UK Government wishes to involve the Scottish Executive as directly and fully as possible in decision making on EU matters which touch on devolved areas (including non-devolved matters which impact on devolved areas and non-devolved matters which will have a distinctive impact of importance in Scotland).\"

Those are all matters on which we can, if we are so minded, engage in discussion and policy formulation in the European Union context.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2090E83P266C709486", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAllion, Mr John", "ID": 2090, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dundee East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John McAllion", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McAllion: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 282.0, "ContributionID": 709486, "EditedText": "I am not giving way, particularly to people like you. The second point was that the First Minister, big Donald, warned us against conspiracy theories. Normally I am a great believer in conspiracy theories. After 22 years in the Labour party, I have good reason to be. If I may borrow somebody's phrase, I have scars on my back to prove it. Some are recent—even new. Conspiracy theories are not justified in this case. If members look at what is proposed in the concordats, they will see that they are working documents between two Executives working within a devolution context that try to ensure that good government ensues from the relationship between the two Executives. Alex Neil said that the Scottish Parliament has been badly maltreated because the concordats have been arrived at as part of a secret deal struck in London. He and the rest of the SNP missed the point. Not only was this Parliament not involved, neither was the Westminster Parliament. It has had no involvement in the concordats, because they are not Parliament to Parliament concordats; they are Executive to Executive concordats. There is a time to be Mr Angry from Ayrshire, or Mrs Angry from Moray, but there is also a time to hang loose, be cool and accept things for what they are. These are working documents that are about establishing good relationships between two Executives in a devolution context.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am not giving way, particularly to people like you.

The second point was that the First Minister, big Donald, warned us against conspiracy theories. Normally I am a great believer in conspiracy theories. After 22 years in the Labour party, I have good reason to be. If I may borrow somebody's phrase, I have scars on my back to prove it. Some are recent—even new.

Conspiracy theories are not justified in this case. If members look at what is proposed in the concordats, they will see that they are working

documents between two Executives working within a devolution context that try to ensure that good government ensues from the relationship between the two Executives.

Alex Neil said that the Scottish Parliament has been badly maltreated because the concordats have been arrived at as part of a secret deal struck in London. He and the rest of the SNP missed the point. Not only was this Parliament not involved, neither was the Westminster Parliament. It has had no involvement in the concordats, because they are not Parliament to Parliament concordats; they are Executive to Executive concordats. There is a time to be Mr Angry from Ayrshire, or Mrs Angry from Moray, but there is also a time to hang loose, be cool and accept things for what they are. These are working documents that are about establishing good relationships between two Executives in a devolution context.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2090E83P266C709490", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAllion, Mr John", "ID": 2090, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dundee East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John McAllion", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McAllion: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 290.0, "ContributionID": 709490, "EditedText": "I do not have time. Ms White can see me outside later on if she wants to deal with the matter. As for Scotland being shackled by the concordats, that is a laughable suggestion. The SNP is arguing as if the concordats could be regarded as international treaties that are binding on the people of Scotland. They are not like, for example, the Maastricht treaty. If that was implemented in full, it would establish a single currency across Europe. It would establish a European central bank with central control over interest rates, public spending and increasingly over taxes. It would be right to argue that that kind of agreement would shackle Scotland. However, as I remember, the SNP voted for the Maastricht treaty, have argued consistently for the full implementation of the Maastricht treaty and have never said a whisper about Scotland being shackled by the Maastricht treaty. The arguments that we have heard this morning have been nonsense. If the SNP is going to direct its attacks against Scotland's independence being undermined, direct it at the right targets, not at the concordats; that is not what they are about. On the SNP amendment, if the Executive moved a motion that tried to bind this Parliament to an agreement struck in secret in London between the two Executives, I would be suspicious and the SNP would be paranoid, yet that is what its amendment is asking to be done. The SNP must make its mind up.", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not have time. Ms White can see me outside later on if she wants to deal with the matter.

As for Scotland being shackled by the concordats, that is a laughable suggestion. The SNP is arguing as if the concordats could be regarded as international treaties that are binding on the people of Scotland. They are not like, for example, the Maastricht treaty. If that was implemented in full, it would establish a single currency across Europe. It would establish a European central bank with central control over interest rates, public spending and increasingly over taxes. It would be right to argue that that kind of agreement would shackle Scotland. However, as I remember, the SNP voted for the Maastricht treaty, have argued consistently for the full implementation of the Maastricht treaty and have never said a whisper about Scotland being shackled by the Maastricht treaty. The arguments that we have heard this morning have been nonsense.

If the SNP is going to direct its attacks against Scotland's independence being undermined, direct it at the right targets, not at the concordats; that is not what they are about.

On the SNP amendment, if the Executive moved a motion that tried to bind this Parliament to an agreement struck in secret in London between the two Executives, I would be suspicious and the SNP would be paranoid, yet that is what its amendment is asking to be done. The SNP must make its mind up.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2090E83P266C709492", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAllion, Mr John", "ID": 2090, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dundee East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John McAllion", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McAllion: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 294.0, "ContributionID": 709492, "EditedText": "I listened to the radio this morning. There was a discussion about Greenland and whether it should settle for home rule within Denmark or go for independence. A Greenlander was on, and said, \"For me, going for independence is the same as setting fire to your house or running about naked in the ice; it is crazy and it makes no sense.\"", "EditedTextHTML": "I listened to the radio this morning. There was a discussion about Greenland and whether it should settle for home rule within Denmark or go for independence. A Greenlander was on, and said, \"For me, going for independence is the same as setting fire to your house or running about naked in the ice; it is crazy and it makes no sense.\"

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1821E295P538C709497", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Mrs Margaret", "ID": 1821, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Moray" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Margaret Ewing rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 306.0, "ContributionID": 709497, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1762E216P508C709502", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Elder, Dorothy-Grace", "ID": 1762, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 316.0, "ContributionID": 709502, "EditedText": "Does the member agree with what Tony Blair had the impertinence to state more than a year ago—that sovereignty rests with him, as an English MP? Is that what Hugh Henry believes?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the member agree with what Tony Blair had the impertinence to state more than a year ago—that sovereignty rests with him, as an English MP? Is that what Hugh Henry believes?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2029E47P167C709503", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Henry, Hugh", "ID": 2029, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Hugh Henry", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Hugh Henry: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 318.0, "ContributionID": 709503, "EditedText": "No, it is not what I, the Labour group in this Parliament or the Labour party believe.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, it is not what I, the Labour group in this Parliament or the Labour party believe.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2029E47P167C709510", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Henry, Hugh", "ID": 2029, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Hugh Henry", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Hugh Henry: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 332.0, "ContributionID": 709510, "EditedText": "I will give way to Sandra White.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will give way to Sandra White.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1865E219P509C709511", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "White, Sandra", "ID": 1865, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sandra White", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms White: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 334.0, "ContributionID": 709511, "EditedText": "Hugh Henry mentioned Tony Blair and the UK Government. We cannot get away from the fact that, when a written question on this matter was put to Mr Dewar, he answered: \"The UK Government has prepared drafts, which have now been received by the Scottish Executive.\"—Official Report, Written Answers, 24 August 1999; Vol 1, p 232. Does the First Minister think that the fact that the UK Government prepared and put forward the drafts is fair and democratic? I do not.", "EditedTextHTML": "Hugh Henry mentioned Tony Blair and the UK Government. We cannot get away from the fact that, when a written question on this matter was put to Mr Dewar, he answered:

\"The UK Government has prepared drafts, which have now been received by the Scottish Executive.\"—[Official Report, Written Answers, 24 August 1999; Vol 1, p 232.]

Does the First Minister think that the fact that the UK Government prepared and put forward the drafts is fair and democratic? I do not.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C709518", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 348.0, "ContributionID": 709518, "EditedText": "We will check the Official Report to find out whether a ruling has to be made and we will get back to you.", "EditedTextHTML": "We will check the Official Report to find out whether a ruling has to be made and we will get back to you.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C709520", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 353.0, "ContributionID": 709520, "EditedText": "I think that the member would be the first to say that the Scottish Parliament should have a right to a different freedom of information act from one in England. Each Administration would expect its freedom of information rules to be observed if information was exchanged. That seems to be a reasonable safeguard.", "EditedTextHTML": "I think that the member would be the first to say that the Scottish Parliament should have a right to a different freedom of information act from one in England. Each Administration would expect its freedom of information rules to be observed if information was exchanged. That seems to be a reasonable safeguard.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C709528", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Keith Raffan (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 372.0, "ContributionID": 709528, "EditedText": "Alex Neil opened the debate by saying that it was not about independence versus devolution, and then he proceeded to attack the memorandum of understanding and the concordats from an independence—or separatist—perspective. He is entitled to do that, but while his first sentence was measured, he degenerated rapidly into a rant. Sadly, every single member of the Scottish National party has followed in his wake for the rest of the debate. Interruption. The SNP has to learn to listen to other speeches. I have sat through this debate for two hours, listening to them. I have not heckled them. It is only fair that we all have a right to say what we want to say. SNP members must not bring to the chamber their habit of shouting down people who disagree with them. They have got to learn to listen. We take a different view, and they came to the chamber today to fight again an election that was fought only a few months ago and which they lost. They did not just lose the election marginally; they lost overwhelmingly. Today almost the whole of the chamber is against the SNP: nearly 100 members against just 35. We have a different perspective.", "EditedTextHTML": "Alex Neil opened the debate by saying that it was not about independence versus devolution, and then he proceeded to attack the memorandum of understanding and the concordats from an independence—or separatist—perspective. He is entitled to do that, but while his first sentence was measured, he degenerated rapidly into a rant.

Sadly, every single member of the Scottish National party has followed in his wake for the rest of the debate. [Interruption.] The SNP has to learn to listen to other speeches. I have sat through this debate for two hours, listening to them. I have not heckled them. It is only fair that we all have a right to say what we want to say. SNP members must not bring to the chamber their habit of shouting down people who disagree with them. They have got to learn to listen. We take a different view, and they came to the chamber today to fight again an election that was fought only a few months ago and which they lost. They did not just lose the election marginally; they lost overwhelmingly. Today almost the whole of the chamber is against the SNP: nearly 100 members against just 35. We have a different perspective.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C709530", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 376.0, "ContributionID": 709530, "EditedText": "I will not give way. I will say what I want to say—I have listened to an awful lot today. Like John and Hugh and other Labour members, I think that it is time we had a measured and sensible perspective on this. The Scottish Liberal Democrats look at the concordats from a devolutionary and federalist point of view. The concordats represent a common-sense approach. We have heard about a common-sense revolution in Blackpool. Perhaps Miss Goldie will be delighted to hear that, among Labour and Liberal Democrat members, common sense is not a revolution—it comes naturally. As the First Minister rightly said, these are working documents. They are not legally binding. I am glad that Alex Neil has dropped his argument about amending them. If they are not legally binding, how can they be amended? The memorandum makes it clear that the agreements can be updated and adjusted. It is important to note that the agreements also represent a flexible approach. For example, they allow bilateral arrangements to be developed between the Scottish Executive and the Welsh and Northern Irish ministers. That, too, is very useful. If such arrangements are made, they will no doubt come before this Parliament. The last comment that I want to make is on Adam Ingram's point about inward investment. When I was a member of another place for another part of the country MEMBERS: \"For another party.\" I was on the Welsh Affairs Select Committee when it examined inward investment. Competition between different parts of the UK is healthy. Learning from each other's best practice is healthy. A bidding war is unhealthy.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will not give way. I will say what I want to say—I have listened to an awful lot today. Like John and Hugh and other Labour members, I think that it is time we had a measured and sensible perspective on this.

The Scottish Liberal Democrats look at the concordats from a devolutionary and federalist point of view. The concordats represent a common-sense approach. We have heard about a common-sense revolution in Blackpool. Perhaps Miss Goldie will be delighted to hear that, among

Labour and Liberal Democrat members, common sense is not a revolution—it comes naturally.

As the First Minister rightly said, these are working documents. They are not legally binding. I am glad that Alex Neil has dropped his argument about amending them. If they are not legally binding, how can they be amended? The memorandum makes it clear that the agreements can be updated and adjusted.

It is important to note that the agreements also represent a flexible approach. For example, they allow bilateral arrangements to be developed between the Scottish Executive and the Welsh and Northern Irish ministers. That, too, is very useful. If such arrangements are made, they will no doubt come before this Parliament.

The last comment that I want to make is on Adam Ingram's point about inward investment. When I was a member of another place for another part of the country [MEMBERS: \"For another party.\"] I was on the Welsh Affairs Select Committee when it examined inward investment. Competition between different parts of the UK is healthy. Learning from each other's best practice is healthy. A bidding war is unhealthy.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1882E175P456C709533", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ingram, Adam", "ID": 1882, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Adam Ingram", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Ingram: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 382.0, "ContributionID": 709533, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C709534", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 384.0, "ContributionID": 709534, "EditedText": "I will not give way as I have been asked to wind up. It is crucial that different parts of the country should not be played off against each other by inward investors, who are only too well aware that as well as Locate in Scotland and the inward investment arm of the Welsh Development Agency, there are 10 English regional development agencies.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will not give way as I have been asked to wind up. It is crucial that different parts of the country should not be played off against each other by inward investors, who are only too well aware that as well as Locate in Scotland and the inward investment arm of the Welsh Development Agency, there are 10 English regional development agencies.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1882E175P456C709535", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ingram, Adam", "ID": 1882, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Adam Ingram", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Ingram: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 386.0, "ContributionID": 709535, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2056E57P84C709539", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James", "ID": 2056, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "James Douglas-Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Lord James Douglas-Hamilton (Lothians) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 395.0, "ContributionID": 709539, "EditedText": "I have considerable sympathy with the points made by Adam Ingram on inward investment. It is well known that both the First Minister, when he was secretary of state, and previous secretaries of state had to fight off attempts by the Department of Trade and Industry to take on much greater powers and control over inward investment.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have considerable sympathy with the points made by Adam Ingram on inward investment. It is well known that both the First Minister, when he was secretary of state, and previous secretaries of state had to fight off attempts by the Department of Trade and Industry to take on much greater powers and control over inward investment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C709550", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Goldie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 419.0, "ContributionID": 709550, "EditedText": "Is the Deputy First Minister seriously suggesting that that is an effective way for the Government to transmit information to members of this Parliament? Is that the best that we can expect? Applause.", "EditedTextHTML": "Is the Deputy First Minister seriously suggesting that that is an effective way for the Government to transmit information to members of this Parliament? Is that the best that we can expect? [Applause.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C709555", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 429.0, "ContributionID": 709555, "EditedText": "The point that was made referred to publication, and I indicated what the publication arrangements were. Mr Swinney—who has made so much of parliamentary questions—seems to be very dismissive of parliamentary answers, suggesting that because they give part information, they are to be dismissed as just two or three lines of writing.", "EditedTextHTML": "The point that was made referred to publication, and I indicated what the publication arrangements were. Mr Swinney—who has made so much of parliamentary questions—seems to be very dismissive of parliamentary answers, suggesting that because they give part information, they are to be dismissed as just two or three lines of writing.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C709559", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 437.0, "ContributionID": 709559, "EditedText": "I will give way to Mr Neil in a minute. He also said that the joint ministerial committee that is being set up could have a veto on any proposals made by the Cubie committee. That is arrant nonsense, and I think that in his heart of heart he knows it. Over many years in Parliament, I have had considerable respect for Mrs Margaret Ewing, but I am afraid that she lost the plot today. She told Parliament that she had sat through hours of debate on the Scotland Bill. She must have slept through them, because I can remember debates specifically about whether Westminster could continue to legislate on matters that were devolved. I opposed that, as it was not consistent with federalism.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will give way to Mr Neil in a minute. He also said that the joint ministerial committee that is being set up could have a veto on any proposals made by the Cubie committee. That is arrant nonsense, and I think that in his heart of heart he knows it.

Over many years in Parliament, I have had considerable respect for Mrs Margaret Ewing, but I am afraid that she lost the plot today. She told Parliament that she had sat through hours of debate on the Scotland Bill. She must have slept through them, because I can remember debates specifically about whether Westminster could continue to legislate on matters that were devolved. I opposed that, as it was not consistent with federalism.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C709561", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 441.0, "ContributionID": 709561, "EditedText": "I can readily reconcile those two statements. The concordats are coming before the Scottish Parliament—that is what we have been discussing for the past two and three quarter hours. Mrs Ewing misses the point. These are working arrangements for a devolution settlement; they are not a treaty negotiated between two nation states.", "EditedTextHTML": "I can readily reconcile those two statements. The concordats are coming before the Scottish Parliament—that is what we have been discussing for the past two and three quarter hours.

Mrs Ewing misses the point. These are working arrangements for a devolution settlement; they are not a treaty negotiated between two nation states.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C709566", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Goldie rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 451.0, "ContributionID": 709566, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2228E151P202C709569", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26914, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 455.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 455.0, "ID": 26914, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McCabe, Tom", "ID": 2228, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Tom McCabe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Parliament (Mr Tom McCabe): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 459.0, "ContributionID": 709569, "EditedText": "The motion sets out the business for the first week following our recess, which is the week commencing 25 October. On the afternoon of Wednesday 27 October, the meeting will start at 2.30 pm with our first time for reflection, which will be followed by a debate on an Executive motion on domestic violence. Decision time will take place at 5 pm, after which there will be a members' business debate on motion S1M-187, in the name of Mr Nick Johnston, on telecommunications infrastructure. On Thursday 28 October, the first item of business at 9.30 am will be a debate on an Executive motion on the structural funds programme. Immediately before lunch, I will move a further business motion in respect of future business. The afternoon will begin with question time at2.30 pm. At 3.15 pm, there will be a debate on an Executive motion on the Scottish University for Industry. After decision time at 5 pm, there will be a members' business debate on motion S1M-128, in the name of Mr Allan Wilson, on regional selective assistance. The motion also sets out the date—19 November—by which the Finance Committee and Audit Committee must complete their stage 2 consideration of the Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill. I move,That the Parliament agrees: (a) the following programme of business Wednesday 27 October 1999 2.30 pm Time for Reflection followed by Debate on an Executive Motion on Domestic Violence followed by Parliamentary Bureau motions 5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business Debate on the subject of S1M-187, Mr Nick Johnston: Telecommunications Thursday 28 October 19999.30 am Debate on an Executive Motion on Structural Funds Programmes 12.20 pm Business Motion 2.30 pm Question Time 3.00 pm Open Question Time followed by, no later than 3.15 pm Debate on an Executive Motion on the Scottish University for Industry followed by Parliamentary Bureau motions 5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business Debate on the subject of S1M-128, Allan Wilson: Regional Selective Assistance and (b), that the Finance Committee and Audit Committee shall complete Stage 2 consideration of the Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill by 19 November 1999.", "EditedTextHTML": "The motion sets out the business for the first week following our recess, which is the week commencing 25 October.

On the afternoon of Wednesday 27 October, the meeting will start at 2.30 pm with our first time for reflection, which will be followed by a debate on an Executive motion on domestic violence. Decision time will take place at 5 pm, after which there will be a members' business debate on motion S1M-187, in the name of Mr Nick Johnston, on telecommunications infrastructure.

On Thursday 28 October, the first item of business at 9.30 am will be a debate on an Executive motion on the structural funds programme. Immediately before lunch, I will move a further business motion in respect of future business.

The afternoon will begin with question time at

2.30 pm. At 3.15 pm, there will be a debate on an Executive motion on the Scottish University for Industry. After decision time at 5 pm, there will be a members' business debate on motion S1M-128, in the name of Mr Allan Wilson, on regional selective assistance. The motion also sets out the date—19 November—by which the Finance Committee and Audit Committee must complete their stage 2 consideration of the Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill.

I move,

That the Parliament agrees: (a) the following programme of business Wednesday 27 October 1999

2.30 pm Time for Reflection followed by Debate on an Executive Motion on Domestic Violence followed by Parliamentary Bureau motions

5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business Debate on the subject of S1M-187, Mr Nick Johnston: Telecommunications

Thursday 28 October 1999

9.30 am Debate on an Executive Motion on Structural Funds Programmes 12.20 pm Business Motion 2.30 pm Question Time 3.00 pm Open Question Time followed by, no later than 3.15 pm Debate on an Executive Motion on the Scottish University for Industry followed by Parliamentary Bureau motions

5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business Debate on the subject of S1M-128, Allan Wilson: Regional Selective Assistance and (b), that the Finance Committee and Audit Committee shall complete Stage 2 consideration of the Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill by 19 November 1999.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C709570", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26914, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 455.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 455.0, "ID": 26914, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 461.0, "ContributionID": 709570, "EditedText": "As I have no indication that anyone wishes to speak against the motion, I will put the question to the chamber. The question is, that business motion S1M-196 be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "As I have no indication that anyone wishes to speak against the motion, I will put the question to the chamber. The question is, that business motion S1M-196 be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709574", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26914, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 455.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 455.0, "ID": 26914, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 467.0, "ContributionID": 709574, "EditedText": "On resuming—", "EditedTextHTML": "On resuming—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1950E155P451C709578", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26915, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 468.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26916, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 469.0, "QuestionHeading": "Free School Transport", "QuestionHeadingID": 26917, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 472.0, "DisplayOrder": 472.0, "ID": 26917, "ParentID": 26916 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Campbell, Colin", "ID": 1950, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Colin Campbell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Colin Campbell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 477.0, "ContributionID": 709578, "EditedText": "That was a totally predictable answer. Does the minister realise that this is the second year running that this has happened and that it is alienating parents? Does he agree that the matter is driven more by a need to make economies—caused by lack of adequate financial resources—than by anything else?", "EditedTextHTML": "That was a totally predictable answer. Does the minister realise that this is the second year running that this has happened and that it is alienating parents? Does he agree that the matter is driven more by a need to make economies—caused by lack of adequate financial resources—than by anything else?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C709585", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26915, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 468.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26916, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 469.0, "QuestionHeading": "Immunisation", "QuestionHeadingID": 26918, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 481.0, "DisplayOrder": 481.0, "ID": 26918, "ParentID": 26916 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 492.0, "ContributionID": 709585, "EditedText": "I happily repeat that no precise answer can be given. I am pleased that Mr Quinan has done his research; he is absolutely right that Frank Dobson has met those manufacturers. We are in constant liaison with the UK health department, which is leading on the matter, and the fact that the meetings have taken place is evidence of the active involvement of ministers north and south of the border. I hope he will accept that assurance.", "EditedTextHTML": "I happily repeat that no precise answer can be given. I am pleased that Mr Quinan has done his research; he is absolutely right that Frank Dobson has met those manufacturers. We are in constant liaison with the UK health department, which is leading on the matter, and the fact that the meetings have taken place is evidence of the active involvement of ministers north and south of the border. I hope he will accept that assurance.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709598", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26915, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 468.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26916, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 469.0, "QuestionHeading": "Police", "QuestionHeadingID": 26921, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 508.0, "DisplayOrder": 508.0, "ID": 26921, "ParentID": 26916 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 521.0, "ContributionID": 709598, "EditedText": "We must have another question.", "EditedTextHTML": "We must have another question.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1888E265P358C709602", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26915, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 468.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26916, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 469.0, "QuestionHeading": "Roads (Dumfries and Galloway)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26922, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 527.0, "DisplayOrder": 527.0, "ID": 26922, "ParentID": 26916 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morgan, Alasdair", "ID": 1888, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Galloway and Upper Nithsdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morgan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alasdair Morgan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 530.0, "ContributionID": 709602, "EditedText": "Is it not the case that the route action plans are simply tinkering at the edges? Considering the vast private investment by ferry companies at Loch Ryan, the fact that the A75 is a strategic route of European importance, and the high casualty rate on the A76, should not those roads be a priority for investment?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is it not the case that the route action plans are simply tinkering at the edges? Considering the vast private investment by ferry companies at Loch Ryan, the fact that the A75 is a strategic route of European importance, and the high casualty rate on the A76, should not those roads be a priority for investment?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1865E219P509C709605", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26915, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 468.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26916, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 469.0, "QuestionHeading": "European Funding", "QuestionHeadingID": 26923, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 534.0, "DisplayOrder": 534.0, "ID": 26923, "ParentID": 26916 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "White, Sandra", "ID": 1865, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sandra White", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms White: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 537.0, "ContributionID": 709605, "EditedText": "I thank Mr McConnell. We know that the west of Scotland programme is not likely to be approved by 2000. That means that the current interpretation of the guidelines on Sound and Efficient Financial Management 2000 seems to be the problem. At what level was the decision taken to reinterpret the SEM 2000 guidelines—at the Scottish level, the UK level, or the European level—and what action will the Scottish Executive take to prevent the loss of those vital funds to Glasgow and the west of Scotland?", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank Mr McConnell. We know that the west of Scotland programme is not likely to be approved by 2000. That means that the current interpretation of the guidelines on Sound and Efficient Financial Management 2000 seems to be the problem. At what level was the decision taken to reinterpret the SEM 2000 guidelines—at the Scottish level, the UK level, or the European level—and what action will the Scottish Executive take to prevent the loss of those vital funds to

Glasgow and the west of Scotland?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C709610", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26915, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 468.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26916, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 469.0, "QuestionHeading": "Social Inclusion", "QuestionHeadingID": 26924, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 541.0, "DisplayOrder": 541.0, "ID": 26924, "ParentID": 26916 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "9. Tommy Sheridan (Glasgow) (SSP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 548.0, "ContributionID": 709610, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it considers the Prime Minister's statement in his speech on 29 September regarding class to be relevant to its social inclusion strategy and, if so, in what way. (S1O-443) The Minister for Communities (Ms Wendy", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it considers the Prime Minister's statement in his speech on 29 September regarding class to be relevant to its social inclusion strategy and, if so, in what way. (S1O-443) The Minister for Communities (Ms Wendy

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709611", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26915, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 468.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26916, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 469.0, "QuestionHeading": "Social Inclusion", "QuestionHeadingID": 26924, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 541.0, "DisplayOrder": 541.0, "ID": 26924, "ParentID": 26916 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alexander) ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alexander): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 550.0, "ContributionID": 709611, "EditedText": "I presume that Mr Sheridan is not referring to class sizes. Let me quote the Prime Minister. He said: \"The class war is over\".I think that means that he remains to be persuaded by the merits of Mr Leon Trotsky or Mr Tommy Sheridan on that one. He continued: \"but the struggle for true equality has only just begun.\"There is no better weapon, in conquering social exclusion in Scotland, than the commitment that Labour gave at its conference last week—to strive for full employment in the next century.", "EditedTextHTML": "I presume that Mr Sheridan is not referring to class sizes. Let me quote the Prime Minister. He said:

\"The class war is over\".

I think that means that he remains to be persuaded by the merits of Mr Leon Trotsky or Mr Tommy Sheridan on that one. He continued:

\"but the struggle for true equality has only just begun.\"

There is no better weapon, in conquering social exclusion in Scotland, than the commitment that Labour gave at its conference last week—to strive for full employment in the next century.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C709618", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26915, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 468.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26916, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 469.0, "QuestionHeading": "Social Inclusion", "QuestionHeadingID": 26924, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 541.0, "DisplayOrder": 541.0, "ID": 26924, "ParentID": 26916 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 564.0, "ContributionID": 709618, "EditedText": "Then they will lose their housing benefit.", "EditedTextHTML": "Then they will lose their housing benefit.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2010E221P512C709625", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26915, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 468.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26916, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 469.0, "QuestionHeading": "Street Lighting", "QuestionHeadingID": 26926, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 575.0, "DisplayOrder": 575.0, "ID": 26926, "ParentID": 26916 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Paterson, Gil", "ID": 2010, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Gil Paterson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Paterson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 580.0, "ContributionID": 709625, "EditedText": "Is the minister telling members that the community at Longriggend, which relies on the supply and maintenance of the street lighting, will have those facilities taken away? Will Longriggend be the only village in Scotland where the lights are turned out?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is the minister telling members that the community at Longriggend, which relies on the supply and maintenance of the street lighting, will have those facilities taken away? Will Longriggend be the only village in Scotland where the lights are turned out?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C709626", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26915, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 468.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26916, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 469.0, "QuestionHeading": "Street Lighting", "QuestionHeadingID": 26926, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 575.0, "DisplayOrder": 575.0, "ID": 26926, "ParentID": 26916 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 582.0, "ContributionID": 709626, "EditedText": "As Mr Paterson knows, the former Prison Service staff quarters adjacent to the establishment at Longriggend were sold and are now privately owned. Together with the quarters, the purchasers were also conveyed shares, including maintenance responsibility for the private roads, surface water drainage and the street lighting system. As I said, the Prison Service paid for the maintenance and running costs associated with those facilities on a good-will basis. The legal responsibility was taken on by the residents when they bought the establishment.", "EditedTextHTML": "As Mr Paterson knows, the former Prison Service staff quarters adjacent to the establishment at Longriggend were sold and are now privately owned. Together with the quarters,

the purchasers were also conveyed shares, including maintenance responsibility for the private roads, surface water drainage and the street lighting system. As I said, the Prison Service paid for the maintenance and running costs associated with those facilities on a good-will basis. The legal responsibility was taken on by the residents when they bought the establishment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C709630", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26915, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 468.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26916, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 469.0, "QuestionHeading": "Foresterhill Laboratories", "QuestionHeadingID": 26927, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 588.0, "DisplayOrder": 588.0, "ID": 26927, "ParentID": 26916 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 591.0, "ContributionID": 709630, "EditedText": "The meeting will take place at the beginning of next month. That was the earliest date that could be arranged which suited the key people in Aberdeen.", "EditedTextHTML": "The meeting will take place at the beginning of next month. That was the earliest date that could be arranged which suited the key people in Aberdeen.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1893E47P78C709634", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26915, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 468.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26916, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 469.0, "QuestionHeading": "Urban Foxes", "QuestionHeadingID": 26928, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 599.0, "DisplayOrder": 599.0, "ID": 26928, "ParentID": 26916 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnstone, Alex", "ID": 1893, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Johnstone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "13. Alex Johnstone (North-East Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 600.0, "ContributionID": 709634, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has to deal with the growing problem of foxes in the urban environment in Scotland. (S1O-445) The Deputy Minister for Community Care (Iain Gray): I think I get to answer because I live in and represent Currie and Balerno, where rural and urban Lothian meet in a particularly pleasing synthesis. We have no such plans. Pest control is a matter for the local authorities and property owners concerned.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has to deal with the growing problem of foxes in the urban environment in Scotland. (S1O-445) The Deputy Minister for Community Care (Iain Gray): I think I get to answer because I live in and represent Currie and Balerno, where rural and urban Lothian meet in a particularly pleasing synthesis.

We have no such plans. Pest control is a matter for the local authorities and property owners concerned.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6233244+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2033E106P139C709636", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26915, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 468.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26916, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 469.0, "QuestionHeading": "Urban Foxes", "QuestionHeadingID": 26928, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 599.0, "DisplayOrder": 599.0, "ID": 26928, "ParentID": 26916 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gray, Iain", "ID": 2033, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Pentlands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Iain Gray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Iain Gray: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 604.0, "ContributionID": 709636, "EditedText": "It is for the local authorities to deal with foxes moving to the urban environment. As far as I am aware, no local authority has made representations to the Scottish Executive for help, although I believe that one authority has asked its officials to make a report on the problem. With regard to what I think Mr Johnstone was really asking, as I believe he knows, the Scottish Executive has no plans to introduce the legislation to which his question alluded.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is for the local authorities to deal with foxes moving to the urban environment. As far as I am aware, no local authority has made representations to the Scottish Executive for help, although I believe that one authority has asked its officials to make a report on the problem.

With regard to what I think Mr Johnstone was really asking, as I believe he knows, the Scottish Executive has no plans to introduce the legislation to which his question alluded.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6233244+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1878E208P502C709645", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26915, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 468.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26916, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 469.0, "QuestionHeading": "Fishing Industry", "QuestionHeadingID": 26930, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 613.0, "DisplayOrder": 613.0, "ID": 26930, "ParentID": 26916 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Dr Winnie", "ID": 1878, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Winnie Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Winnie Ewing (Highlands and Islands) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 624.0, "ContributionID": 709645, "EditedText": "On a point of order.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6233244+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C709651", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26915, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 468.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26916, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 469.0, "QuestionHeading": "Oban Hospital", "QuestionHeadingID": 26932, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 637.0, "DisplayOrder": 637.0, "ID": 26932, "ParentID": 26916 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "17. George Lyon (Argyll and Bute) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 638.0, "ContributionID": 709651, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what steps it is taking to resolve the current situation at Oban hospital, where Argyll and Clyde Acute Hospital Trust is unable to accept the North British Hotel Group's offer of a computed axial tomography scanner because the trust does not have the funding to meet staffing and running costs. (S1O-423) The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): It is for local health boards and NHS trusts to decide on the services and facilities to be provided to meet the needs of local populations. The Scottish Executive has no plans to become involved in this matter.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what steps it is taking to resolve the current situation at Oban hospital, where Argyll and Clyde Acute Hospital Trust is unable to accept the North British Hotel Group's offer of a computed axial tomography scanner because the trust does not have the funding to meet staffing and running costs. (S1O-423) The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): It is for local health boards and NHS trusts to decide on the services and facilities to be provided to meet the needs of local populations. The Scottish Executive has no plans

to become involved in this matter.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6233244+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C709654", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26933, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 640.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26934, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 641.0, "QuestionHeading": "Scottish Assigned Budget", "QuestionHeadingID": 26935, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 642.0, "DisplayOrder": 642.0, "ID": 26935, "ParentID": 26934 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 647.0, "ContributionID": 709654, "EditedText": "That is broadly correct. Budget provision is made for European structural funds within the Scottish assigned budget each year. That is based on the total for the funds agreed by the Commission for each seven-year programme—for example, the present one is 1994 to 1999—and the likely pattern of expenditure. Although it is true that there can be differences in the amount paid each year—it may fluctuate—the total funds committed over the seven-year programme do not change. Any increases or decreases, which occur for a variety of reasons each year, must be accommodated within the same total. We are conscious of the importance of the structural funds and there will shortly be announcements about objective 2. We look forward to a good settlement.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is broadly correct. Budget provision is made for European structural funds within the Scottish assigned budget each year. That is based on the total for the funds agreed by the Commission for each seven-year programme—for example, the present one is 1994 to 1999—and the likely pattern of expenditure. Although it is true that there can be differences in the amount paid each year—it may fluctuate—the total funds committed over the seven-year programme do not change. Any increases or decreases, which occur for a variety of reasons each year, must be accommodated within the same total. We are conscious of the importance of the structural funds and there will shortly be announcements about objective 2. We look forward to a good settlement.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6233244+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C709656", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26933, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 640.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26934, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 641.0, "QuestionHeading": "Scottish Assigned Budget", "QuestionHeadingID": 26935, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 642.0, "DisplayOrder": 642.0, "ID": 26935, "ParentID": 26934 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 651.0, "ContributionID": 709656, "EditedText": "Those do not affect overall spending levels. I am surprised that that comes as a surprise to the SNP. They affect what is spent in the areas that have status of eligibility. The deal that was done for the Highlands and Islands, which secured the financial equivalent of objective 1, was important to the Highlands and Islands and was widely welcomed.", "EditedTextHTML": "Those do not affect overall spending levels. I am surprised that that comes as a surprise to the SNP. They affect what is spent in the areas that have status of eligibility. The deal that was done for the Highlands and Islands, which secured the financial equivalent of objective 1, was important to the Highlands and Islands and was widely welcomed.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6233244+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C709658", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26933, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 640.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26934, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 641.0, "QuestionHeading": "Scottish Assigned Budget", "QuestionHeadingID": 26935, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 642.0, "DisplayOrder": 642.0, "ID": 26935, "ParentID": 26934 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 655.0, "ContributionID": 709658, "EditedText": "I do not recognise that figure. The fact that, through the influence of some hard arguing by the United Kingdom at Berlin, we got the financial equivalent of objective 1 status, was widely welcomed. The Highlands and Islands narrowly failed to qualify both in terms of gross domestic product per head and on the ground of sparsity. It was important to obtain support for them, and that was achieved. It is interesting to note that if we examine the GDP comparisons for Scotland as against the rest of the United Kingdom, we are outscored by London and the south-east but if we consider the other nine areas of the United Kingdom, the Scottish GDP per head is above all the rest.", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not recognise that figure. The fact that, through the influence of some hard arguing by the United Kingdom at Berlin, we got the financial equivalent of objective 1 status, was widely welcomed. The Highlands and Islands narrowly failed to qualify both in terms of gross domestic product per head and on the ground of sparsity. It was important to obtain support for them, and that was achieved.

It is interesting to note that if we examine the GDP comparisons for Scotland as against the rest of the United Kingdom, we are outscored by London and the south-east but if we consider the other nine areas of the United Kingdom, the Scottish GDP per head is above all the rest.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6233244+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C709661", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26933, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 640.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26934, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 641.0, "QuestionHeading": "Scottish Assigned Budget", "QuestionHeadingID": 26935, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 642.0, "DisplayOrder": 642.0, "ID": 26935, "ParentID": 26934 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 661.0, "ContributionID": 709661, "EditedText": "Will the First Minister confirm that, since they began in 1974, 25 per cent of UK structural funds have been allocated to Scotland but that it has received the Barnett formula share of those funds—8.8 per cent? From the First Minister's answer to Mr Crawford today, it is clear that we have lost out on hundreds of millions of pounds of structural funds because of the London link.", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the First Minister confirm that, since they began in 1974, 25 per cent of UK structural funds have been allocated to Scotland but that it has received the Barnett formula share of those funds—8.8 per cent? From the First Minister's answer to Mr Crawford today, it is clear that we have lost out on hundreds of millions of pounds of structural funds because of the London link.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6233244+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C709667", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26933, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 640.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26934, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 641.0, "QuestionHeading": "Drugs", "QuestionHeadingID": 26936, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 665.0, "DisplayOrder": 665.0, "ID": 26936, "ParentID": 26934 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Angus MacKay: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 674.0, "ContributionID": 709667, "EditedText": "Miss Goldie may or may not be aware that I have responsibility for the Scottish Executive's drugs policy across all departments. I work in tandem with colleagues responsible for communities, health and education. However, I would not want to intrude on the First Minister's responsibility for the number and remit of ministers in Scotland. I do not wish to be partisan, but some may find it rather unlikely that a Conservative member is suggesting that we appoint an additional minister. We should recognise that the approach that is being taken at the moment is comprehensive and seeks to tackle the problem through the provision of adequate facilities for rehabilitation and proper preventive education for future generations of young Scots, as well as through effective enforcement. The ministerial committee, which is a Cabinet sub-committee, has a broad remit and the agencies with which it is working are examining every issue that affects the drugs problem in Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "Miss Goldie may or may not be aware that I have responsibility for the Scottish Executive's drugs policy across all departments. I work in tandem with colleagues responsible for communities, health and education.

However, I would not want to intrude on the First Minister's responsibility for the number and remit of ministers in Scotland. I do not wish to be partisan, but some may find it rather unlikely that a Conservative member is suggesting that we appoint an additional minister.

We should recognise that the approach that is being taken at the moment is comprehensive and seeks to tackle the problem through the provision of adequate facilities for rehabilitation and proper preventive education for future generations of young Scots, as well as through effective enforcement.

The ministerial committee, which is a Cabinet sub-committee, has a broad remit and the agencies with which it is working are examining every issue that affects the drugs problem in Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6233244+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C709669", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26933, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 640.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26934, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 641.0, "QuestionHeading": "Drugs", "QuestionHeadingID": 26936, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 665.0, "DisplayOrder": 665.0, "ID": 26936, "ParentID": 26934 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 678.0, "ContributionID": 709669, "EditedText": "Rabbits.", "EditedTextHTML": "Rabbits.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6233244+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1931E120P189C709673", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26933, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 640.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26934, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 641.0, "QuestionHeading": "Housing", "QuestionHeadingID": 26937, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 686.0, "DisplayOrder": 686.0, "ID": 26937, "ParentID": 26934 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Muldoon, Bristow", "ID": 1931, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Livingston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bristow Muldoon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "3. Bristow Muldoon (Livingston) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 687.0, "ContributionID": 709673, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it intends to introduce proposals to allow local authorities to ring-fence housing stock suitable for older people from right-to-buy legislation. (S1O-444) The Minister for Communities (Ms Wendy Alexander): Under existing legislation, houses which have been specifically designed or adapted for the needs of elderly people may be exempted from the right to buy, but in the context of next year's housing bill I am willing to consider proposals for further legislation in this area.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it intends to introduce proposals to allow local authorities to ring-fence housing stock suitable for older people from right-to-buy legislation. (S1O-444) The Minister for Communities (Ms Wendy Alexander): Under existing legislation, houses which have been specifically designed or adapted for the needs of elderly people may be exempted from the right to buy, but in the context of next year's housing bill I am willing to consider proposals for further legislation in this area.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6233244+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1962E35P56C709676", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26933, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 640.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26934, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 641.0, "QuestionHeading": "Housing", "QuestionHeadingID": 26937, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 686.0, "DisplayOrder": 686.0, "ID": 26937, "ParentID": 26934 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mundell, David", "ID": 1962, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Mundell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David Mundell (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 693.0, "ContributionID": 709676, "EditedText": "I would like to draw the minister's attention to the Greenbank proposal for a day care centre and supported housing for the elderly in Langholm in Dumfriesshire. As the project includes many partners, including Scottish Homes, will the minister encourage partnership working to produce a development that will support the strategy that she has set out many times for social inclusion and communities?", "EditedTextHTML": "I would like to draw the minister's attention to the Greenbank proposal for a day care centre and supported housing for the elderly in Langholm in Dumfriesshire. As the project includes many partners, including Scottish Homes, will the minister encourage partnership working to produce a development that will support the strategy that she has set out many times for social inclusion and communities?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6233244+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C709677", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26933, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 640.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26934, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 641.0, "QuestionHeading": "Housing", "QuestionHeadingID": 26937, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 686.0, "DisplayOrder": 686.0, "ID": 26937, "ParentID": 26934 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 695.0, "ContributionID": 709677, "EditedText": "I hope that Mr Mundell will understand that, as one of the ministers who are responsible for local government, I am anxious not to encroach on that which is the responsibility of the local authority. I understand that Dumfries and Galloway Council are closely involved in examining the funding of the Greenbank project in collaboration with Scottish Homes.", "EditedTextHTML": "I hope that Mr Mundell will understand that, as one of the ministers who are responsible for local government, I am anxious not to encroach on that which is the responsibility of the local authority. I understand that Dumfries and Galloway Council are closely involved in examining the funding of the Greenbank project in collaboration with Scottish Homes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6233244+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C709679", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26933, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 640.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26934, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 641.0, "QuestionHeading": "Housing", "QuestionHeadingID": 26937, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 686.0, "DisplayOrder": 686.0, "ID": 26937, "ParentID": 26934 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 699.0, "ContributionID": 709679, "EditedText": "What Mary Scanlon is referring to is the change in the cost floor rules. There is a balance of interest to be struck between tenants' aspirations and returning investment to the community; the new cost floor rules do that.", "EditedTextHTML": "What Mary Scanlon is referring to is the change in the cost floor rules. There is a balance of interest to be struck between tenants' aspirations and returning investment to the community; the new cost floor rules do that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6233244+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709680", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26933, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 640.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26934, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 641.0, "QuestionHeading": "Housing", "QuestionHeadingID": 26937, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 686.0, "DisplayOrder": 686.0, "ID": 26937, "ParentID": 26934 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 701.0, "ContributionID": 709680, "EditedText": "Before we move to the statement, Dr Ewing wishes to make a point of order.", "EditedTextHTML": "Before we move to the statement, Dr Ewing wishes to make a point of order.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6233244+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709682", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26933, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 640.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26934, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 641.0, "QuestionHeading": "Housing", "QuestionHeadingID": 26937, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 686.0, "DisplayOrder": 686.0, "ID": 26937, "ParentID": 26934 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 705.0, "ContributionID": 709682, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6233244+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1878E208P502C709683", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26933, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 640.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26934, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 641.0, "QuestionHeading": "Housing", "QuestionHeadingID": 26937, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 686.0, "DisplayOrder": 686.0, "ID": 26937, "ParentID": 26934 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Dr Winnie", "ID": 1878, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Winnie Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 707.0, "ContributionID": 709683, "EditedText": "He cannot give us any protection? The median line has not settled the majority of water boundary cases.", "EditedTextHTML": "He cannot give us any protection? The median line has not settled the majority of water boundary cases.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6233244+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1828E200P487C709685", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26933, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 640.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26934, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 641.0, "QuestionHeading": "Housing", "QuestionHeadingID": 26937, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 686.0, "DisplayOrder": 686.0, "ID": 26937, "ParentID": 26934 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacDonald, Margo", "ID": 1828, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margo MacDonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Margo MacDonald (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 711.0, "ContributionID": 709685, "EditedText": "On a point of order.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6233244+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709688", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26933, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 640.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26934, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 641.0, "QuestionHeading": "Housing", "QuestionHeadingID": 26937, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 686.0, "DisplayOrder": 686.0, "ID": 26937, "ParentID": 26934 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 717.0, "ContributionID": 709688, "EditedText": "I did not hear any such reference. I can say only that ministers, like every other member, are responsible for their own utterances. That is not a point of order for the chair.", "EditedTextHTML": "I did not hear any such reference. I can say only that ministers, like every other member, are responsible for their own utterances. That is not a point of order for the chair.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6233244+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C709691", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Railways", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26938, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 719.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 719.0, "ID": 26938, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Patricia Ferguson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 725.0, "ContributionID": 709691, "EditedText": "The minister will now take questions on the issues raised in her statement. I intend to allow 20 minutes for questions, after which we will move on to the next item of business. I remind members who want to speak to press their request buttons.", "EditedTextHTML": "The minister will now take questions on the issues raised in her statement. I intend to allow 20 minutes for questions, after which we will move on to the next item of business. I remind members who want to speak to press their request buttons.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6233244+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2044E178P334C709700", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Railways", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26938, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 719.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 719.0, "ID": 26938, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jenkins, Ian", "ID": 2044, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ian Jenkins", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ian Jenkins (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 743.0, "ContributionID": 709700, "EditedText": "As the MSP for that area, I welcome that statement from the minister. I hope that when she considers the report, she will remember the kind of economic, social and environmental benefits that could follow in the Scottish Borders and areas like it. Today's announcements give the minister the opportunity to plan a strategic transport policy for the whole of Scotland. I seek her assurance that road and rail networks in rural areas will feature heavily in her thinking. The road and rail networks in the Borders need upgrading.", "EditedTextHTML": "As the MSP for that area, I welcome that statement from the minister. I hope that when she considers the report, she will remember the kind of economic, social and environmental benefits that could follow in the Scottish Borders and areas like it. Today's announcements give the minister the opportunity to plan a strategic transport policy for the whole of Scotland. I seek her assurance that road and rail networks in rural areas will feature heavily in her thinking. The road and rail networks in the Borders need upgrading.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6233244+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1893E47P78C709729", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture (Agenda 2000)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26939, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 779.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 779.0, "ID": 26939, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnstone, Alex", "ID": 1893, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Johnstone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Johnstone: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 805.0, "ContributionID": 709729, "EditedText": "In determining the causes of the problem, the best source is the National Farmers Union of Scotland, which has produced a list of the issues that it believes have done the most damage to Scottish farming. Right at the top of that list is the strength of sterling, which has already been mentioned by Alasdair Morgan. The problems that are associated with the strength of sterling are so severe that virtually nothing that we can choose to do, or that the Executive can do on behalf of Scottish farming, will overcome those problems. For that reason, I must join Alasdair Morgan in calling for the situation to be considered as a problem that goes beyond agriculture.", "EditedTextHTML": "In determining the causes of the problem, the best source is the National Farmers Union of Scotland, which has produced a list of the issues that it believes have done the most damage to Scottish farming. Right at the top of that list is the strength of sterling, which has already been mentioned by Alasdair Morgan. The problems that are associated with the strength of sterling are so severe that virtually nothing that we can choose to do, or that the Executive can do on behalf of Scottish farming, will overcome those problems. For that reason, I must join Alasdair Morgan in calling for the situation to be considered as a problem that goes beyond agriculture.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6233244+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C709721", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture (Agenda 2000)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26939, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 779.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 779.0, "ID": 26939, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ross Finnie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 787.0, "ContributionID": 709721, "EditedText": "Is Mrs Ewing seeking a clear figure in terms of the amounts?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is Mrs Ewing seeking a clear figure in terms of the amounts?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6233244+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C709725", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture (Agenda 2000)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26939, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 779.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 779.0, "ID": 26939, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ross Finnie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 795.0, "ContributionID": 709725, "EditedText": "Personally, I have had no such meetings. However, I have added the Scottish Executive's needs to the memos that are currently being circulated through our UK representative and through our ambassadorial team, all of whom are pressing the commission to take serious action, particularly against the French Government. As I understand the position, the French Government is now threatened with infraction proceedings. The European Commission must make it quite clear to the French that they are in gross breach of their obligations. That point is being made strenuously by the UK Government, and I have added my name to the contribution that has been made on this issue. I must move on, as time is precious. I have made it clear that I consider it to be as important to look forward and to try to take the whole question of our agriculture into a slightly different frame. On Monday, the First Minister and I met leaders of the National Farmers Union of Scotland to progress the longer-term agenda. All present acknowledged the problems that face farming and accepted that there could be no quick and easy solutions. We agreed that it was important to develop medium and longer-term strategies and to take a fresh look at the situation. The approach that I am adopting is similar to the one that I would have taken had I still been in the business sector; that is, I will look at the problems and constraints and develop strategies to make use of the opportunities. That will not be quick or easy, and is not necessarily likely to overcome all the problems, but I believe that it is the way in which we must go forward. For too long, perhaps, we have hidden from some of the real issues and been fearful of the answers. It may be that we, both Government and industry, have lacked the confidence to look for new opportunities. Whatever the reasons, the time is right to move on. In the first instance, the Executive proposes to take a look at two sectors that are experiencing particular difficulties: the sheep sector and the dairy sector. They are not the only ones. I am only too well aware of the appalling problems that face the pig sector. I continue to have discussions with my officials to look at whether there are any ways in which we can help, but I do not want to raise hopes because they are also in a position where any form of assistance would break the hurdle of state aid. I intend to invite an experienced and respected businessman, with a track record in international markets, to carry out a wide-ranging review of the sheep industry from the farm to the consumer. The aim is to identify opportunities available to the sector, then pass them on to the industry to work up a renewed strategy. For the milk sector, I have agreed to provide financial support to the Scottish Agricultural Organisation Society Ltd to enable it to work with Scottish Milk and experienced consultants to prepare a strategic plan for the sector, reflecting the ideas that industry managers have been trying to work up in recent months. In case there is any doubt, it is not a question of doubting the ability of those in the industry; indeed, the initiatives will need to draw on their experience and skills. It is a question of supplementing and complementing those in the industry and bringing some fresh thinking to those two beleaguered sectors. In addition to those market-oriented initiatives, the Executive has proposed other steps. These include reviewing red tape, proposing an increasing dialogue on the growing links between farming and environmental pressures and exploring ways of ensuring incomes for those who live in more fragile areas. Of course, these are but a few stepping-stones in what will be a long crossing. I do not want to pretend that there are any easy or quick solutions to the problems that face our agricultural industry. There are not. What I am saying today is what I said to the NFUS, and what has been my consistent theme since I took office: I am prepared to look at the medium and longer-term issues to try to find a solution to the problems that have bedevilled the sector for so long. I move,That the Parliament welcomes the Scottish Executive's support for Scottish farmers and approves the steps it is taking to assist in creating a more sustainable future for Scottish agriculture.", "EditedTextHTML": "Personally, I have had no such meetings. However, I have added the Scottish Executive's needs to the memos that are currently being circulated through our UK representative and through our ambassadorial team, all of whom are pressing the commission to take serious action, particularly against the French Government. As I understand the position, the French Government is now threatened with infraction proceedings. The European Commission must make it quite clear to the French that they are in gross breach of their obligations. That point is being made strenuously by the UK Government, and I have added my name to the contribution that has been made on this issue.

I must move on, as time is precious. I have made it clear that I consider it to be as important to look forward and to try to take the whole question of our agriculture into a slightly different frame. On Monday, the First Minister and I met leaders of the National Farmers Union of Scotland to progress the longer-term agenda. All present acknowledged the problems that face farming and accepted that there could be no quick and easy solutions. We agreed that it was important to develop medium and longer-term strategies and to take a fresh look at the situation.

The approach that I am adopting is similar to the one that I would have taken had I still been in the business sector; that is, I will look at the problems and constraints and develop strategies to make use of the opportunities. That will not be quick or easy, and is not necessarily likely to overcome all the problems, but I believe that it is the way in which we must go forward. For too long, perhaps, we have hidden from some of the real issues and been fearful of the answers. It may be that we, both Government and industry, have lacked the

confidence to look for new opportunities. Whatever the reasons, the time is right to move on.

In the first instance, the Executive proposes to take a look at two sectors that are experiencing particular difficulties: the sheep sector and the dairy sector. They are not the only ones. I am only too well aware of the appalling problems that face the pig sector. I continue to have discussions with my officials to look at whether there are any ways in which we can help, but I do not want to raise hopes because they are also in a position where any form of assistance would break the hurdle of state aid.

I intend to invite an experienced and respected businessman, with a track record in international markets, to carry out a wide-ranging review of the sheep industry from the farm to the consumer. The aim is to identify opportunities available to the sector, then pass them on to the industry to work up a renewed strategy.

For the milk sector, I have agreed to provide financial support to the Scottish Agricultural Organisation Society Ltd to enable it to work with Scottish Milk and experienced consultants to prepare a strategic plan for the sector, reflecting the ideas that industry managers have been trying to work up in recent months.

In case there is any doubt, it is not a question of doubting the ability of those in the industry; indeed, the initiatives will need to draw on their experience and skills. It is a question of supplementing and complementing those in the industry and bringing some fresh thinking to those two beleaguered sectors. In addition to those market-oriented initiatives, the Executive has proposed other steps. These include reviewing red tape, proposing an increasing dialogue on the growing links between farming and environmental pressures and exploring ways of ensuring incomes for those who live in more fragile areas.

Of course, these are but a few stepping-stones in what will be a long crossing. I do not want to pretend that there are any easy or quick solutions to the problems that face our agricultural industry. There are not. What I am saying today is what I said to the NFUS, and what has been my consistent theme since I took office: I am prepared to look at the medium and longer-term issues to try to find a solution to the problems that have bedevilled the sector for so long.

I move,

That the Parliament welcomes the Scottish Executive's support for Scottish farmers and approves the steps it is taking to assist in creating a more sustainable future for Scottish agriculture.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6233244+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C709730", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture (Agenda 2000)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26939, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 779.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 779.0, "ID": 26939, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ross Finnie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 807.0, "ContributionID": 709730, "EditedText": "Alex Johnstone said that he was concerned about the strength of sterling, and he has quoted extensively from Jim Walker's document. Is he telling us that he shares Jim Walker's view that the United Kingdom should join the euro, or is he not endorsing Mr Walker as fully as he is trying to claim?", "EditedTextHTML": "Alex Johnstone said that he was concerned about the strength of sterling, and he has quoted extensively from Jim Walker's document. Is he telling us that he shares Jim Walker's view that the United Kingdom should join the euro, or is he not endorsing Mr Walker as fully as he is trying to claim?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6233244+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1893E47P78C709731", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture (Agenda 2000)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26939, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 779.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 779.0, "ID": 26939, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnstone, Alex", "ID": 1893, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Johnstone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Johnstone: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 809.0, "ContributionID": 709731, "EditedText": "Oh, mischievous.", "EditedTextHTML": "Oh, mischievous.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6233244+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709768", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Lead Committees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26941, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 883.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 883.0, "ID": 26941, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 888.0, "ContributionID": 709768, "EditedText": "The Audit Committee to consider Parts 2 and 3 of Stage 2 of the Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill.— Mr McCabe.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Audit Committee to consider Parts 2 and 3 of Stage 2 of the Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill.— [Mr McCabe.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6233244+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C709734", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture (Agenda 2000)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26939, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 779.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 779.0, "ID": 26939, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 815.0, "ContributionID": 709734, "EditedText": "As members have said, only a short time is available for the debate. It would be helpful if speeches by those participating lasted no longer than four minutes.", "EditedTextHTML": "As members have said, only a short time is available for the debate. It would be helpful if speeches by those participating lasted no longer than four minutes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1873E89P171C709738", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture (Agenda 2000)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26939, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 779.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 779.0, "ID": 26939, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jackson, Dr Sylvia", "ID": 1873, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Stirling" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sylvia Jackson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Sylvia Jackson (Stirling) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 825.0, "ContributionID": 709738, "EditedText": "As the representative for the Stirling constituency—an area that one might not imagine is classified as 93 per cent rural—I understand fully the difficulties facing Scottish farmers. Like Mike Rumbles, I have been to my local mart and have paid several visits to local farmers. I welcome Ross Finnie's motion and the Executive's efforts to ensure a sustainable future for farming in Scotland. The BSE crisis has damaged the beef industry, and caused a knock- on effect on our agricultural industries. We have suffered not only the loss of direct agricultural jobs, but a serious threat to dependent jobs. The industry has been damaged by a fall in exports and we must examine ways in which to increase Scottish exports to Europe—an export market that was worth almost £700 million a year in the years up to 1996. Even the welcome lifting of the ban on British beef has not been without its problems in regaining markets, particularly in France. The Westminster Government is addressing those complex issues, and we should support its efforts. We should also support the efforts of Ross Finnie, who spoke on that matter earlier. In this country we can applaud the animal welfare standards that our farmers maintain, but those standards do not come without costs. There must be a level playing field within the European market. We must also address the contentious issue of labelling. Import labelling is often unclear, and even misleading. We must present to the European Union the case for the compulsory declaration of country of origin, to inform consumers and promote the buying of Scottish meat. It is essential that, as the Scottish Parliament, we work with Westminster to strengthen our case for Scottish farmers before the European Commission, and search for solutions that are specifically Scottish. Many of those solutions have been alluded to. Agenda 2000 reforms provide opportunities for farmers to further restructure their businesses towards a more market-oriented future, but we all recognise that agriculture still needs substantial support. We welcome the £40 million aid package that was implemented in September and which was referred to earlier, particularly the aid to the hill sheep farmers in my area. However, as was clearly stated by Ross Finnie, a long-term strategy for Scottish agriculture is needed. The Scottish Executive is to provide Scottish Milk, the country's largest milk co-operative, with assistance in putting together a strategic plan. We need to examine more options for creating partnerships with local enterprise companies and councils. While those measures go some way towards supporting our traditional farming, it is essential that we recognise the need for diversification, which allows farming to develop in a modern market. In looking for the way forward, we must support innovative measures. Mention has been made of organic schemes. I know that Robin Harper is a great supporter of them, and Ross Finnie has also mentioned them. The success of the farmers' market in Perth is another excellent example of innovative thinking. Many farmers are open to change and diversity, and we must support their efforts in those areas. Agenda 2000 shows the need for rural development plans that address diversification and recognise the increasing scope for farming, forestry and the natural environment to be developed for each other's benefit, to which Ross Finnie alluded. We can also develop further the Scottish brand with new labelling for home-grown products, such as labels identifying specially selected Scotch lamb. I am sure that pig farmers will have similar ideas. We are not short of ideas. Sustainability is at the heart of Agenda 2000 and this Government's programme. I commend the motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "As the representative for the Stirling constituency—an area that one might not imagine is classified as 93 per cent rural—I understand fully the difficulties facing Scottish farmers. Like Mike Rumbles, I have been to my local mart and have paid several visits to local farmers.

I welcome Ross Finnie's motion and the Executive's efforts to ensure a sustainable future for farming in Scotland. The BSE crisis has damaged the beef industry, and caused a knock- on effect on our agricultural industries. We have suffered not only the loss of direct agricultural jobs, but a serious threat to dependent jobs. The industry has been damaged by a fall in exports and we must examine ways in which to increase Scottish exports to Europe—an export market that was worth almost £700 million a year in the years up to 1996. Even the welcome lifting of the ban on British beef has not been without its problems in regaining markets, particularly in France. The Westminster Government is addressing those complex issues, and we should support its efforts. We should also support the efforts of Ross Finnie, who spoke on that matter earlier.

In this country we can applaud the animal welfare standards that our farmers maintain, but those standards do not come without costs. There must be a level playing field within the European market. We must also address the contentious issue of labelling. Import labelling is often unclear, and even misleading. We must present to the European Union the case for the compulsory declaration of country of origin, to inform consumers and promote the buying of Scottish meat.

It is essential that, as the Scottish Parliament, we work with Westminster to strengthen our case for Scottish farmers before the European Commission, and search for solutions that are specifically Scottish. Many of those solutions have been alluded to.

Agenda 2000 reforms provide opportunities for farmers to further restructure their businesses towards a more market-oriented future, but we all recognise that agriculture still needs substantial support. We welcome the £40 million aid package that was implemented in September and which was referred to earlier, particularly the aid to the hill sheep farmers in my area. However, as was clearly stated by Ross Finnie, a long-term strategy for Scottish agriculture is needed. The Scottish Executive is to provide Scottish Milk, the country's largest milk co-operative, with assistance in putting together a strategic plan. We need to examine more options for creating partnerships with local enterprise companies and councils. While those measures go some way towards supporting our traditional farming, it is essential that we recognise the need for diversification, which allows farming to develop in a modern market.

In looking for the way forward, we must support innovative measures. Mention has been made of organic schemes. I know that Robin Harper is a great supporter of them, and Ross Finnie has also mentioned them. The success of the farmers' market in Perth is another excellent example of innovative thinking.

Many farmers are open to change and diversity, and we must support their efforts in those areas. Agenda 2000 shows the need for rural development plans that address diversification and recognise the increasing scope for farming, forestry and the natural environment to be developed for each other's benefit, to which Ross Finnie alluded.

We can also develop further the Scottish brand with new labelling for home-grown products, such as labels identifying specially selected Scotch lamb. I am sure that pig farmers will have similar ideas. We are not short of ideas.

Sustainability is at the heart of Agenda 2000 and this Government's programme. I commend the motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1768E72P274C709740", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture (Agenda 2000)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26939, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 779.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 779.0, "ID": 26939, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Murray, Elaine", "ID": 1768, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumfries" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Murray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Elaine Murray (Dumfries) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 831.0, "ContributionID": 709740, "EditedText": "I, too, represent a largely rural constituency, and have been made well aware of the problems faced by local farmers. The public's perception is that farmers tend to exaggerate their woes. I have received a couple of letters complaining that I was supporting the farmers. There can be little doubt that farmers in the beef, dairy, sheep and pig sectors have experienced real and continuing problems this year. I was one of several MSPs who contacted the minister to request that the Executive should take action when it could to relieve the immediate problem. Before Mr Finnie's meeting with Nick Brown and the Welsh Agriculture and Rural Development Secretary, I lodged a member's motion to draw attention to farmers' difficulties. I was, therefore, pleased to hear Mr Finnie's announcement of 20 September, which set out a number of measures to support the farming industry. In addition, I congratulate the minister on applying to Brussels for a Scottish cull ewe scheme, although I am disappointed that the strict rules that the EU applies on state aid for agriculture have created significant difficulties in that area. Both Messrs Morgan and Johnstone made some interesting and valid points, but the amendments in their names seem to have been lodged principally for the sake of disagreement. They do not offer anything particularly different in terms of wording, apart from raking over the usual old coals of fuel taxes and the strength of sterling—neither of which is within the remit of the Minister for Rural Affairs or, indeed, of the Scottish Executive.", "EditedTextHTML": "I, too, represent a largely rural constituency, and have been made well aware of the problems faced by local farmers. The public's perception is that farmers tend to exaggerate their woes. I have received a couple of letters complaining that I was supporting the farmers. There can be little doubt that farmers in the beef, dairy, sheep and pig sectors have experienced real and continuing problems this year.

I was one of several MSPs who contacted the minister to request that the Executive should take action when it could to relieve the immediate problem. Before Mr Finnie's meeting with Nick Brown and the Welsh Agriculture and Rural Development Secretary, I lodged a member's motion to draw attention to farmers' difficulties. I was, therefore, pleased to hear Mr Finnie's announcement of 20 September, which set out a number of measures to support the farming industry. In addition, I congratulate the minister on applying to Brussels for a Scottish cull ewe scheme, although I am disappointed that the strict rules that the EU applies on state aid for agriculture have created significant difficulties in that area.

Both Messrs Morgan and Johnstone made some interesting and valid points, but the amendments in their names seem to have been lodged principally for the sake of disagreement. They do not offer anything particularly different in terms of wording, apart from raking over the usual old coals

of fuel taxes and the strength of sterling—neither of which is within the remit of the Minister for Rural Affairs or, indeed, of the Scottish Executive.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1888E265P358C709741", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture (Agenda 2000)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26939, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 779.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 779.0, "ID": 26939, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morgan, Alasdair", "ID": 1888, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Galloway and Upper Nithsdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morgan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alasdair Morgan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 833.0, "ContributionID": 709741, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C709743", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture (Agenda 2000)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26939, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 779.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 779.0, "ID": 26939, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 837.0, "ContributionID": 709743, "EditedText": "I call Mr McGrigor.", "EditedTextHTML": "I call Mr McGrigor.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2140E187P335C709745", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture (Agenda 2000)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26939, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 779.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 779.0, "ID": 26939, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Rumbles, Mike", "ID": 2140, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Rumbles", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Rumbles: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 842.0, "ContributionID": 709745, "EditedText": "I do not now whether Mr McGrigor knows this, but this week Sir David Carter came to address the Rural Affairs Committee. Mr McGrigor could have attended that meeting, asked Sir David questions and heard what he had to say. If he feels so strongly about the issue, he might at least have done that.", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not now whether Mr McGrigor knows this, but this week Sir David Carter came to address the Rural Affairs Committee. Mr McGrigor could have attended that meeting, asked Sir David questions and heard what he had to say. If he feels so strongly about the issue, he might at least have done that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1906E278P355C709747", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture (Agenda 2000)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26939, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 779.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 779.0, "ID": 26939, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Welsh, Andrew", "ID": 1906, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Angus" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Welsh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Andrew Welsh (Angus) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 847.0, "ContributionID": 709747, "EditedText": "Jamie McGrigor has given some graphic illustrations of an industry in trouble and the effect that that is having on individuals and families; it is a message that we should all heed. The agriculture industry remains the backbone of Scotland's rural economy. Its importance and ability to generate wealth—and, in its ancillary industries, employment—cannot be overemphasised. The industry is under siege from falling incomes and increasing regulation; almost every sector is under threat. The devastation inflicted on Scotland's fishing industry should be a warning signal of the fate that awaits Scotland's agriculture sector unless action is taken to restore the health and competitiveness of one of the country's greatest assets. I could choose almost any sector of the industry to highlight the plight of agriculture, its work force and ancillary industries. However, I will concentrate on the beef sector, which is the most important component of Scottish agriculture, contributing about 25 per cent of Scotland's gross agricultural output. That top-quality sector is still reeling under the effects of the BSE crisis. It must now be given every possible assistance to regain its lost markets quickly. The lifting of the export ban on 1 August was a step forward, but the strictness of the EU's date- based export scheme constitutes a major and costly hurdle for Scots producers to overcome. The problems of French resistance and the lack of abattoir facilities must be tackled with urgency. The recovery in Scotland's market share has to take place against an EU beef surplus; we have the quality products and the expertise to regain, with the correct Government policies, those multimillion- pound markets. The Scottish Executive must be more proactive and positive in fighting in Europe for Scotland's interests. Scottish Executive representatives should have constantly put pressure on French Government ministers over their decision to ban Scottish beef imports. In the past, Scotland has suffered from the UK's refusal to recognise an obvious Scottish solution to the problem. Even now, in post-devolution circumstances, that symptom seems to persist. I believe that any Scottish minister of agriculture should be pressing the Scottish case directly and urgently to the French. I am disappointed that there has been no direct contact with any French ministers, never mind the French consul. There is every opportunity, and Scotland's case must be pressed.I welcome the National Farmers Union and Scottish Executive initiatives on issues such as the over-30-months slaughter scheme, specified risk material controls, the loss of value of by-products and the much-needed integrated administration and control system bureaucracy review. The proof of the pudding will be whether or not there is an improvement in the industry's competitiveness. Scottish farmers need practical help from the Government, not more rhetoric and regulation. The industry has a right to expect action; the Executive will be judged by the success or failure of its efforts to deliver that action for Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "Jamie McGrigor has given some graphic illustrations of an industry in trouble and the effect that that is having on individuals and families; it is a message that we should all heed.

The agriculture industry remains the backbone of Scotland's rural economy. Its importance and ability to generate wealth—and, in its ancillary industries, employment—cannot be overemphasised. The industry is under siege from falling incomes and increasing regulation; almost every sector is under threat. The devastation inflicted on Scotland's fishing industry should be a warning signal of the fate that awaits Scotland's agriculture sector unless action is taken to restore the health and competitiveness of one of the country's greatest assets.

I could choose almost any sector of the industry to highlight the plight of agriculture, its work force and ancillary industries. However, I will concentrate on the beef sector, which is the most important component of Scottish agriculture, contributing about 25 per cent of Scotland's gross agricultural output. That top-quality sector is still reeling under the effects of the BSE crisis. It must now be given every possible assistance to regain its lost markets quickly.

The lifting of the export ban on 1 August was a step forward, but the strictness of the EU's date- based export scheme constitutes a major and costly hurdle for Scots producers to overcome. The problems of French resistance and the lack of abattoir facilities must be tackled with urgency. The recovery in Scotland's market share has to take place against an EU beef surplus; we have the quality products and the expertise to regain, with the correct Government policies, those multimillion- pound markets.

The Scottish Executive must be more proactive and positive in fighting in Europe for Scotland's interests. Scottish Executive representatives should have constantly put pressure on French Government ministers over their decision to ban Scottish beef imports. In the past, Scotland has suffered from the UK's refusal to recognise an obvious Scottish solution to the problem. Even now, in post-devolution circumstances, that symptom seems to persist. I believe that any Scottish minister of agriculture should be pressing the Scottish case directly and urgently to the French. I am disappointed that there has been no direct contact with any French ministers, never mind the French consul. There is every

opportunity, and Scotland's case must be pressed.

I welcome the National Farmers Union and Scottish Executive initiatives on issues such as the over-30-months slaughter scheme, specified risk material controls, the loss of value of by-products and the much-needed integrated administration and control system bureaucracy review. The proof of the pudding will be whether or not there is an improvement in the industry's competitiveness. Scottish farmers need practical help from the Government, not more rhetoric and regulation. The industry has a right to expect action; the Executive will be judged by the success or failure of its efforts to deliver that action for Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C709752", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture (Agenda 2000)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26939, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 779.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 779.0, "ID": 26939, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Davidson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 858.0, "ContributionID": 709752, "EditedText": "I am sorry; yesterday, I gave way to Mrs Ewing, as she is a lady, but today I no longer wish to be a gentleman. Time is against us. It is important that the housewife knows what is on offer. In the old Conservative days, when even Raffan was a Conservative, we had the buy British campaign. There is nothing wrong with a buy Scottish, or a buy local—Welsh or whatever else— campaign. We produce a quality product, which will not be available unless the farming community is given a clear steer to keep going. Ross Finnie came out with a classic line about £40 million of new money. Some £20 million of that is an overrun from a previous scheme. It is not new money, although I am grateful for the passport relief. There are several issues that cannot be discussed today—I am bitterly disappointed that this debate has not had the time that it deserves. MEMBERS: \"Hear, hear.\" Mike Rumbles should pipe down about the past. I am fed up with the Liberal Democrats' needle sticking. The trouble with them is that they are playing 78s while we have moved on to CDs.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry; yesterday, I gave way to Mrs Ewing, as she is a lady, but today I no longer wish to be a gentleman. Time is against us.

It is important that the housewife knows what is on offer. In the old Conservative days, when even Raffan was a Conservative, we had the buy British campaign. There is nothing wrong with a buy Scottish, or a buy local—Welsh or whatever else— campaign. We produce a quality product, which will not be available unless the farming community is given a clear steer to keep going.

Ross Finnie came out with a classic line about £40 million of new money. Some £20 million of that is an overrun from a previous scheme. It is not new money, although I am grateful for the passport relief.

There are several issues that cannot be discussed today—I am bitterly disappointed that

this debate has not had the time that it deserves. [MEMBERS: \"Hear, hear.\"] Mike Rumbles should pipe down about the past. I am fed up with the Liberal Democrats' needle sticking. The trouble with them is that they are playing 78s while we have moved on to CDs.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1888E265P358C709758", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture (Agenda 2000)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26939, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 779.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 779.0, "ID": 26939, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morgan, Alasdair", "ID": 1888, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Galloway and Upper Nithsdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morgan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alasdair Morgan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 872.0, "ContributionID": 709758, "EditedText": "Does the minister accept that the current settlement may not be internationally tenable up to its expiry date and that, as Nick Brown said, we may have to renegotiate in Europe within the next few years?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the minister accept that the current settlement may not be internationally tenable up to its expiry date and that, as Nick Brown said, we may have to renegotiate in Europe within the next few years?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C709760", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture (Agenda 2000)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26939, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 779.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 779.0, "ID": 26939, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan (Falkirk West): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 876.0, "ContributionID": 709760, "EditedText": "There are your papers, minister.", "EditedTextHTML": "There are your papers, minister.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709771", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26943, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 892.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 892.0, "ID": 26943, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 893.0, "ContributionID": 709771, "EditedText": "I am afraid that there are no fewer than 10 questions to be put. The first question is on the amendment without notice which was moved by the First Minister during this morning's debate and which does not appear in the daily business list. Amendment S1M-186.2 seeks to amend motion S1M-186 on the memorandum of understanding by inserting \"Cabinet of the\" after \"Scottish Ministers and the\". We discussed the issue this morning. The question is, that amendment S1M-186.2, in the name of the First Minister, be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am afraid that there are no fewer than 10 questions to be put. The first question is on the amendment without notice which was moved by the First Minister during this morning's debate and which does not appear in the daily business list. Amendment S1M-186.2 seeks to amend motion S1M-186 on the memorandum of understanding by inserting \"Cabinet of the\" after \"Scottish Ministers and the\". We discussed the issue this morning.

The question is, that amendment S1M-186.2, in the name of the First Minister, be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709774", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26943, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 892.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 892.0, "ID": 26943, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 898.0, "ContributionID": 709774, "EditedText": "Amendment agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709778", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26943, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 892.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 892.0, "ID": 26943, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 905.0, "ContributionID": 709778, "EditedText": "FOR Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)AGAINST Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)(LD)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)

AGAINST

Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)
(LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709784", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26943, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 892.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 892.0, "ID": 26943, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 915.0, "ContributionID": 709784, "EditedText": "FOR Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)(LD)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)AGAINST Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)
(LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)

AGAINST

Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709786", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26943, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 892.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 892.0, "ID": 26943, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 918.0, "ContributionID": 709786, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to,", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to,

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709788", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26943, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 892.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 892.0, "ID": 26943, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 920.0, "ContributionID": 709788, "EditedText": "The fifth question is, that amendment S1M-185.1, in the name of Alasdair Morgan, seeking to amend motion S1M-185, in the name of Ross Finnie, on Agenda 2000 and the development of agriculture in Scotland, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "The fifth question is, that amendment S1M-185.1, in the name of Alasdair Morgan, seeking to amend motion S1M-185, in the name of Ross Finnie, on Agenda 2000 and the development of agriculture in Scotland, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709792", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26943, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 892.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 892.0, "ID": 26943, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 927.0, "ContributionID": 709792, "EditedText": "The result of the division is: For 45, Against 61, Abstentions 1.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result of the division is: For 45, Against 61, Abstentions 1.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709793", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26943, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 892.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 892.0, "ID": 26943, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 929.0, "ContributionID": 709793, "EditedText": "Amendment disagreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment disagreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709797", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26943, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 892.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 892.0, "ID": 26943, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 936.0, "ContributionID": 709797, "EditedText": "FOR Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)AGAINST Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)(LD)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)ABSTENTIONS Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)

AGAINST

Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)
(LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)

ABSTENTIONS

Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709798", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26943, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 892.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 892.0, "ID": 26943, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 937.0, "ContributionID": 709798, "EditedText": "The result of the division is: For 14, Against 64, Abstentions 29.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result of the division is: For 14, Against 64, Abstentions 29.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709801", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26943, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 892.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 892.0, "ID": 26943, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 942.0, "ContributionID": 709801, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709804", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26943, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 892.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 892.0, "ID": 26943, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 947.0, "ContributionID": 709804, "EditedText": "The result of the division is: For 64, Against 1, Abstentions 42.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result of the division is: For 64, Against 1, Abstentions 42.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709808", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26943, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 892.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 892.0, "ID": 26943, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 953.0, "ContributionID": 709808, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709815", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26943, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 892.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 892.0, "ID": 26943, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 961.0, "ContributionID": 709815, "EditedText": "The Audit Committee to consider Parts 2 and 3 of Stage 2 of the Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Audit Committee to consider Parts 2 and 3 of Stage 2 of the Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709816", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26943, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 892.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 892.0, "ID": 26943, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 962.0, "ContributionID": 709816, "EditedText": "The 10th question is that motion S1M-195, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, on the approval of Scottish statutory instruments, be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "The 10th question is that motion S1M-195, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, on the approval of Scottish statutory instruments, be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709820", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Organisations", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26944, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 966.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 966.0, "ID": 26944, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 969.0, "ContributionID": 709820, "EditedText": "Motion debated,", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion debated,

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709823", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Organisations", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26944, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 966.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 966.0, "ID": 26944, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 974.0, "ContributionID": 709823, "EditedText": "I will answer the question now, as I have already seen the press release. I want to register a little anxiety about the release at this stage. In mitigation, however, it may be that the Executive issued the release because Mr Keith Raffan's question, to which the comments were an answer, would have been the next to be called, had it not been cut out because of lack of time. I do not know what the circumstances were. I was a little uneasy for similar reasons in the debate this morning on the concordats. I therefore want to make a general point. My colleague, Miss Boothroyd, gets extremely irritated by the United Kingdom Government's habit of issuing press releases before telling Parliament what is happening. We do not want, and I am anxious not to become, an irritated Presiding Officer. We should, therefore, watch the situation carefully. I understand that the Procedures Committee is also considering the matter. We shall leave it at that for now.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will answer the question now, as I have already seen the press release.

I want to register a little anxiety about the release at this stage. In mitigation, however, it may be that the Executive issued the release because Mr Keith Raffan's question, to which the comments were an answer, would have been the next to be called, had it not been cut out because of lack of time. I do not know what the circumstances were.

I was a little uneasy for similar reasons in the debate this morning on the concordats. I therefore want to make a general point. My colleague, Miss Boothroyd, gets extremely irritated by the United Kingdom Government's habit of issuing press releases before telling Parliament what is happening. We do not want, and I am anxious not to become, an irritated Presiding Officer. We should, therefore, watch the situation carefully. I understand that the Procedures Committee is also considering the matter. We shall leave it at that for now.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C709824", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Organisations", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26944, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 966.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 966.0, "ID": 26944, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 976.0, "ContributionID": 709824, "EditedText": "I am grateful for your remarks. However, people in the public gallery and in the chamber should understand the situation to which I am referring. Jim Wallace issued a statement today that referred to a question from Keith Raffan on the Executive's position on charging voluntary organisations for criminal records on their staff. In the release, Jim Wallace is quoted as saying: \"I am . . . pleased to announce today that I am establishing a review group to consider charging issues and policies.\" Two months ago, in a reply to a similar question from Tricia Marwick, Jim Wallace said that the Executive was \"keeping the matter under review . . . The checks are not mandatory and it will be for voluntary organisations to decide when a check is required and whether to re-imburse the individual.\"—Official Report, Written Answers, 20 July 1999; Vol 1, p 106. One month later, in reply to a question from Donald Gorrie, Angus MacKay said: \"The intention is that the system of criminal record checks provided under part V of the Police Act 1997 should be self financing . . . we are keeping the position under review.\"—Official Report, Written Answers, 2 September 1999; Vol 2, p 19. Now, in a press release, the Executive has said that it is to set up a review to review a situation that was already under review two times over. The situation is embarrassing and those on the Executive front bench must answer for the small- minded approach that has been taken. The Executive has shown a complete lack of grace in dealing with the issue and absolutely no respect for the parliamentary committees or for the Parliament. Ms Baillie should be completely embarrassed and I hope that she will show more grace in her summing-up remarks. We do not need a review—we need an equitable decision to be taken today and some hard answers. Nevertheless, I thank all members who have shown the grace and decency to stay for the debate. The issue is of direct relevance to people's daily lives, as it affects the voluntary sector, which is so vital to our communities and to our society. I thank the Scottish National party, Liberal Democrat, Scottish Socialist party, Conservative and independent members who supported the motion. It is a disappointment that no member of the Labour party decided to support the motion, but we now know why that is. If our new democracy is to work, we must all accept ideas irrespective of their source. Let us not allow narrow party divides to get in the way of taking a positive step forward. Small-minded tactics by the Executive do neither it nor the Parliament credit.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful for your remarks. However, people in the public gallery and in the

chamber should understand the situation to which I am referring. Jim Wallace issued a statement today that referred to a question from Keith Raffan on the Executive's position on charging voluntary organisations for criminal records on their staff. In the release, Jim Wallace is quoted as saying:

\"I am . . . pleased to announce today that I am establishing a review group to consider charging issues and policies.\"

Two months ago, in a reply to a similar question from Tricia Marwick, Jim Wallace said that the Executive was

\"keeping the matter under review . . . The checks are not mandatory and it will be for voluntary organisations to decide when a check is required and whether to re-imburse the individual.\"—[Official Report, Written Answers, 20 July 1999; Vol 1, p 106.]

One month later, in reply to a question from Donald Gorrie, Angus MacKay said:

\"The intention is that the system of criminal record checks provided under part V of the Police Act 1997 should be self financing . . . we are keeping the position under review.\"—[Official Report, Written Answers, 2 September 1999; Vol 2, p 19.]

Now, in a press release, the Executive has said that it is to set up a review to review a situation that was already under review two times over. The situation is embarrassing and those on the Executive front bench must answer for the small- minded approach that has been taken. The Executive has shown a complete lack of grace in dealing with the issue and absolutely no respect for the parliamentary committees or for the Parliament. Ms Baillie should be completely embarrassed and I hope that she will show more grace in her summing-up remarks. We do not need a review—we need an equitable decision to be taken today and some hard answers.

Nevertheless, I thank all members who have shown the grace and decency to stay for the debate. The issue is of direct relevance to people's daily lives, as it affects the voluntary sector, which is so vital to our communities and to our society. I thank the Scottish National party, Liberal Democrat, Scottish Socialist party, Conservative and independent members who supported the motion. It is a disappointment that no member of the Labour party decided to support the motion, but we now know why that is.

If our new democracy is to work, we must all accept ideas irrespective of their source. Let us not allow narrow party divides to get in the way of taking a positive step forward. Small-minded tactics by the Executive do neither it nor the Parliament credit.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C709829", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Organisations", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26944, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 966.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 966.0, "ID": 26944, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 986.0, "ContributionID": 709829, "EditedText": "I am grateful to Fiona McLeod for her remarks, which deal with precisely the argument that we are putting today. What we need from the Executive is not a review of a review of a review, but a firm decision on who will be covered and who will be forced to pay the charges. The legislation that put those checks in place is a result of the rushed nature of the circumstances. It is also a fault of the outmoded Westminster approach to legislation, but we have the chance to clear up the legislation today. Many of us know that, under the more modern and considered legislative mechanism that the Scottish Parliament has in place, a policy and financial memorandum accompanies all bills. In that memorandum, the costs are clearly set out— not just costs to the public sector, as at Westminster, but costs to local authorities, other bodies and individuals. That process is far more inclusive, not exclusive—despite the Executive's best efforts—and would have captured the anomaly at the outset. Today, the Executive has a chance to show that the Scottish Parliament works better and in a more inclusive, together manner.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful to Fiona McLeod for her remarks, which deal with precisely the argument that we are putting today. What we need from the Executive is not a review of a review of a review, but a firm decision on who will be covered and who will be forced to pay the charges.

The legislation that put those checks in place is a result of the rushed nature of the circumstances. It is also a fault of the outmoded Westminster approach to legislation, but we have the chance to clear up the legislation today.

Many of us know that, under the more modern and considered legislative mechanism that the Scottish Parliament has in place, a policy and financial memorandum accompanies all bills. In that memorandum, the costs are clearly set out— not just costs to the public sector, as at Westminster, but costs to local authorities, other bodies and individuals. That process is far more inclusive, not exclusive—despite the Executive's best efforts—and would have captured the anomaly at the outset. Today, the Executive has a chance to show that the Scottish Parliament works better and in a more inclusive, together manner.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2118E157P454C709830", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Organisations", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26944, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 966.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 966.0, "ID": 26944, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Quinan, Mr Lloyd", "ID": 2118, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lloyd Quinan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Lloyd Quinan (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 988.0, "ContributionID": 709830, "EditedText": "Does Mr Wilson agree that the idea of a uniform charge across the UK is a flawed concept, as, while we have the Scottish Criminal Records Office, the equivalent does not exist in England and Wales? The written answer that Angus MacKay gave to Donald Gorrie on 2 September indicated that the intention is that the SCRO checks would be self-financing. Does Mr Wilson agree that that is the way forward?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does Mr Wilson agree that the idea of a uniform charge across the UK is a flawed concept, as, while we have the Scottish Criminal Records Office, the equivalent does not exist in England and Wales? The written answer that Angus MacKay gave to Donald Gorrie on 2 September indicated that the intention is that the SCRO checks would be self-financing. Does Mr Wilson agree that that is the way forward?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C709833", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Organisations", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26944, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 966.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 966.0, "ID": 26944, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 994.0, "ContributionID": 709833, "EditedText": "I am grateful to Mr Campbell for pointing out another germane argument—the public sector already appears to have a mechanism in place, which should be extended to the voluntary sector. In her closing remarks, perhaps Jackie Baillie could redress the somewhat questionable imbalance that was brought about by the publication of that notice. She could show some decency and admit that this is the correct way forward. Although the associated costs are mentioned in the press release, they are still unclear and could amount to millions of pounds for hard-pressed voluntary organisations. The SCVO estimates that around 200,000 checks will be required and that the cost could be anything up to £3 million. That would be a drop in the ocean for the Government, but punitive for the voluntary organisations. Youthlink Scotland estimates that its volunteers— who are not rich people—already give around £350 per year of their own money. Those volunteers are committed to society and to their community and should be rewarded, not discouraged. Paying for the checks will create a huge fund-raising problem for organisations across the country, as they compete with one another to raise funds. We know the issues. The Government, despite previous parliamentary questions, now appears to have changed its position. It should now go the whole way and admit that the motion is correct. Jackie Baillie should back the idea in her summing-up. The Church of Scotland—an organisation with around 20,000 volunteers looking after more 100,000 young people—estimates that the cost to it of the initiative over five years could be £0.5 million. The Church, which is a great Scottish institution, can hardly afford to pay that sum. Many uniformed youth organisations are represented in the public gallery today. For four of them—the Scout Association, the Guide Association, the Boys Brigade and the Girls Brigade—the cost would be some £220,000. That is a phenomenal amount for youth organisations that work to tight budgets. I quote the words of Iain Whyte, the general secretary of the board of parish education of the Church of Scotland. He said in a letter to us: \"The government has—we believe rightly—recognised the value of volunteering\"— nothing new in the press release there, Ms Baillie— \"and it would seem to us to be dangerous to put much of that at risk by imposing these costs on individuals, local churches or the national budgets of the church.\" That applies to every organisation. Mr Whyte ends by saying: \"The effect would be demoralising and demotivating when much goodwill for child protection has been built up so far.\" Why demoralise and demotivate? Why delay any improvement that could be made by holding a review?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful to Mr Campbell for pointing out another germane argument—the public sector already appears to have a mechanism in place, which should be extended to the voluntary sector. In her closing remarks, perhaps Jackie Baillie could redress the somewhat questionable imbalance that was brought about by the publication of that notice. She could show some decency and admit that this is the correct way forward.

Although the associated costs are mentioned in the press release, they are still unclear and could amount to millions of pounds for hard-pressed voluntary organisations. The SCVO estimates that around 200,000 checks will be required and that the cost could be anything up to £3 million. That would be a drop in the ocean for the Government, but punitive for the voluntary organisations. Youthlink Scotland estimates that its volunteers— who are not rich people—already give around £350 per year of their own money. Those volunteers are committed to society and to their community and should be rewarded, not discouraged. Paying for the checks will create a huge fund-raising problem for organisations across the country, as they compete with one another to raise funds.

We know the issues. The Government, despite previous parliamentary questions, now appears to have changed its position. It should now go the whole way and admit that the motion is correct. Jackie Baillie should back the idea in her summing-up.

The Church of Scotland—an organisation with around 20,000 volunteers looking after more 100,000 young people—estimates that the cost to it of the initiative over five years could be £0.5 million. The Church, which is a great Scottish institution, can hardly afford to pay that sum.

Many uniformed youth organisations are represented in the public gallery today. For four of them—the Scout Association, the Guide Association, the Boys Brigade and the Girls Brigade—the cost would be some £220,000. That is a phenomenal amount for youth organisations that work to tight budgets.

I quote the words of Iain Whyte, the general secretary of the board of parish education of the Church of Scotland. He said in a letter to us:

\"The government has—we believe rightly—recognised the value of volunteering\"— nothing new in the press release there, Ms Baillie—

\"and it would seem to us to be dangerous to put much of that at risk by imposing these costs on individuals, local churches or the national budgets of the church.\"

That applies to every organisation. Mr Whyte ends by saying:

\"The effect would be demoralising and demotivating when much goodwill for child protection has been built up so far.\"

Why demoralise and demotivate? Why delay any improvement that could be made by holding a review?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C709838", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Organisations", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26944, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 966.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 966.0, "ID": 26944, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1004.0, "ContributionID": 709838, "EditedText": "Mr Raffan should try to contain himself for once in his life. It is regrettable that the debate could not have been held in more inclusive circumstances. We might have all gathered together to examine what was before us, just as we had cross-party support—apart from the Labour party—for the motion. We might have had a more inclusive approach. The Executive has politicised the issue by trying to pull the rug from under a parliamentary debate.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Raffan should try to contain himself for once in his life.

It is regrettable that the debate could not have been held in more inclusive circumstances. We might have all gathered together to examine what was before us, just as we had cross-party support—apart from the Labour party—for the motion. We might have had a more inclusive approach.

The Executive has politicised the issue by trying to pull the rug from under a parliamentary debate.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709844", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Organisations", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26944, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 966.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 966.0, "ID": 26944, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1017.0, "ContributionID": 709844, "EditedText": "Yes, it has happened before, but the Parliamentary Bureau is anxious that it should not become a habit. I am aware that many members want to speak, so I am prepared to do a deal. I shall accept the motion, provided that everybody is brief.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes, it has happened before, but the Parliamentary Bureau is anxious that it should not become a habit. I am aware that

many members want to speak, so I am prepared to do a deal. I shall accept the motion, provided that everybody is brief.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C709853", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Organisations", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26944, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 966.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 966.0, "ID": 26944, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Annabel Goldie (West of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1040.0, "ContributionID": 709853, "EditedText": "Unlike Andrew Wilson, I was not in the Boys Brigade but I declare an interest, in that the guide commissioners of Scotland gave me dinner last month. I welcome this debate and thank Andrew Wilson for raising the subject in the chamber. It has highlighted an area of profound concern for many people in Scotland—as is demonstrated by the fact that so many people have stayed. It is clear that many of us have been approached by representatives of concerned organisations. I am closely connected with the Church of Scotland, and it is in that context that I am aware of concerns. Two issues arise. The first is that none of us can take exception to or challenge the issue of safety for young people who are involved with voluntary organisations. Everyone in the chamber agrees, as Cathy Jamieson said, that this is a matter of fundamental concern, and no responsible grouping of people would for one minute diminish the significance of the need for proper and extensive checks. The other issue is cost. Might I suggest to the minister that, as many members have said—Mr Wilson made the point cogently—we have in Scotland an enormous reservoir of talent and good will. All those people, who are unpaid, use their own time and, in many cases, their own resources, help others, whatever form that help may take. They are numerous and the contribution they make to Scottish society is probably impossible to quantify. Theirs is a gesture of a responsible society and good will, and it is the sort of contribution that, in a healthy society such as we want in Scotland, is fundamental. It should be encouraged and in no way impeded or obstructed. I view with grave concern the possibility that voluntary organisations will be subjected not just to considerable costs carrying out checks but, if we can take the estimates from the scouting and guiding movements as accurate, that the costs will be of a magnitude that will have a significant effect on their ability to do their excellent work. I urge the minister to view that cost as an insurance premium that society ought to pay for the safeguards it needs. Is it unreasonable for the Government to regard that premium as an investment? There is arguably no item of public expenditure that could be better justified or more useful than underwriting and supporting what those thousands of excellent people in Scotland seek to achieve. I am glad that a review has been announced and I urge the minister to consider with the greatest concern and care the excellent points that have been made in this debate.", "EditedTextHTML": "Unlike Andrew Wilson, I was not in the Boys Brigade but I declare an interest, in that the guide commissioners of Scotland gave me dinner last month.

I welcome this debate and thank Andrew Wilson for raising the subject in the chamber. It has highlighted an area of profound concern for many people in Scotland—as is demonstrated by the fact that so many people have stayed. It is clear that many of us have been approached by representatives of concerned organisations. I am closely connected with the Church of Scotland, and it is in that context that I am aware of concerns.

Two issues arise. The first is that none of us can take exception to or challenge the issue of safety for young people who are involved with voluntary organisations. Everyone in the chamber agrees, as Cathy Jamieson said, that this is a matter of fundamental concern, and no responsible grouping of people would for one minute diminish the significance of the need for proper and extensive checks.

The other issue is cost. Might I suggest to the minister that, as many members have said—Mr Wilson made the point cogently—we have in Scotland an enormous reservoir of talent and good will. All those people, who are unpaid, use their own time and, in many cases, their own resources, help others, whatever form that help may take. They are numerous and the contribution they make to Scottish society is probably impossible to quantify. Theirs is a gesture of a responsible society and good will, and it is the sort of contribution that, in a healthy society such as we want in Scotland, is fundamental. It should be encouraged and in no way impeded or obstructed.

I view with grave concern the possibility that voluntary organisations will be subjected not just to considerable costs carrying out checks but, if we can take the estimates from the scouting and guiding movements as accurate, that the costs will be of a magnitude that will have a significant effect on their ability to do their excellent work.

I urge the minister to view that cost as an insurance premium that society ought to pay for the safeguards it needs. Is it unreasonable for the Government to regard that premium as an investment? There is arguably no item of public expenditure that could be better justified or more useful than underwriting and supporting what those thousands of excellent people in Scotland seek to achieve.

I am glad that a review has been announced and I urge the minister to consider with the greatest concern and care the excellent points that have been made in this debate.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1778E91P257C709854", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Organisations", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26944, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 966.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 966.0, "ID": 26944, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Eadie, Helen", "ID": 1778, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dunfermline East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Helen Eadie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Helen Eadie (Dunfermline East) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1043.0, "ContributionID": 709854, "EditedText": "I thank the Presiding Officer for extending the debate. It is pleasing to see people in the gallery for this debate. I share Cathy Jamieson's concerns and say to Andrew Wilson that in spirit we are all united on these issues, although we differ in our approach to them. Because of that, I was disappointed that Andrew took a confrontational approach. There is no doubt that Jackie Baillie's handling of this issue and her track record during the many years she has been involved with the Labour party is second to none. I can assure anyone that her commitment is tremendous. Once again, we have to ask where the media are. This is an important issue, but yet again they are not here.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the Presiding Officer for extending the debate. It is pleasing to see people in the gallery for this debate. I share Cathy Jamieson's concerns and say to Andrew Wilson that in spirit we are all united on these issues, although we differ in our approach to them. Because of that, I was disappointed that Andrew took a confrontational approach. There is no doubt that Jackie Baillie's handling of this issue and her track record during

the many years she has been involved with the Labour party is second to none. I can assure anyone that her commitment is tremendous.

Once again, we have to ask where the media are. This is an important issue, but yet again they are not here.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1778E91P257C709858", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Organisations", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26944, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 966.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 966.0, "ID": 26944, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Eadie, Helen", "ID": 1778, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dunfermline East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Helen Eadie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Helen Eadie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1051.0, "ContributionID": 709858, "EditedText": "I have only two minutes left. I do not agree with what Mr Quinan said. I have experience in the voluntary sector and I understand the issues that we are discussing. I worked in west Fife villages for two years as a volunteer manager. I do not want to repeat the points that Karen and Elaine have made. I concur with them. There is a need to have a wider review, because this is not just about financial issues. Guidance must be given. I hope that the minister will address that in her speech. Codes of practice and guidance must be given for all voluntary groups so that, for example, they know how to elicit more information from candidates. That process must be considered, so I welcome the review that the minister is proposing.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have only two minutes left. I do not agree with what Mr Quinan said.

I have experience in the voluntary sector and I understand the issues that we are discussing. I worked in west Fife villages for two years as a volunteer manager. I do not want to repeat the points that Karen and Elaine have made. I concur with them. There is a need to have a wider review, because this is not just about financial issues.

Guidance must be given. I hope that the minister will address that in her speech. Codes of practice and guidance must be given for all voluntary groups so that, for example, they know how to elicit more information from candidates. That process must be considered, so I welcome the review that the minister is proposing.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2033E106P139C709862", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Organisations", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26944, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 966.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 966.0, "ID": 26944, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gray, Iain", "ID": 2033, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Pentlands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Iain Gray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Community Care (Iain Gray): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1062.0, "ContributionID": 709862, "EditedText": "He was 49th.", "EditedTextHTML": "He was 49th.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C709353", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 6.0, "ContributionID": 709353, "EditedText": "On a point of order, Presiding Officer. This morning, we are being asked to consider a motion lodged by the First Minister that asks the Parliament to endorse \"the Memorandum of Understanding and supplementary agreements concluded between the United Kingdom Government, Scottish Ministers and the National Assembly for Wales\". This morning in Cardiff, the National Assembly for Wales will consider these concordats for the first time. The Assembly will debate a motion in the name of Andrew Davies, the member for Swansea West, which proposes \"that the Assembly takes note of the Memorandum of Understanding and overarching concordats\". I emphasise the phrase \"takes note\". As a result, the First Minister's motion before us today appears to be technically incompetent as it refers to an agreement reached between three parties: the United Kingdom Government, Scottish ministers and the National Assembly for Wales. Even if the National Assembly for Wales agrees to take note of the memorandum of understanding today, that does not signify the Assembly's agreement to the contents of the memorandum and other documents. In any case, at this stage in the proceedings, the motion before us is technically not competent for this Parliament's consideration because the three parties mentioned in the motion have not agreed to the contents of the memorandum of understanding.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order, Presiding Officer. This morning, we are being asked to consider a motion lodged by the First Minister that asks the Parliament to endorse

\"the Memorandum of Understanding and supplementary agreements concluded between the United Kingdom Government, Scottish Ministers and the National Assembly for Wales\".

This morning in Cardiff, the National Assembly for Wales will consider these concordats for the first time. The Assembly will debate a motion in the name of Andrew Davies, the member for Swansea West, which proposes

\"that the Assembly takes note of the Memorandum of Understanding and overarching concordats\".

I emphasise the phrase \"takes note\". As a result, the First Minister's motion before us today appears to be technically incompetent as it refers to an agreement reached between three parties: the United Kingdom Government, Scottish ministers and the National Assembly for Wales. Even if the National Assembly for Wales agrees to take note of the memorandum of understanding today, that does not signify the Assembly's agreement to the contents of the memorandum and other documents.

In any case, at this stage in the proceedings, the motion before us is technically not competent for this Parliament's consideration because the three parties mentioned in the motion have not agreed to the contents of the memorandum of understanding.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:13:41.2269066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1783E59P270C709861", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Organisations", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26944, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 966.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 966.0, "ID": 26944, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Baillie, Jackie", "ID": 1783, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumbarton" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Jackie Baillie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Communities (Jackie Baillie): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1060.0, "ContributionID": 709861, "EditedText": "Not being small-minded, and not lacking in grace, let me start by thanking Andrew Wilson for providing the Parliament with an opportunity to debate this important matter. I am sorry that some members are disappointed that neither Jim Wallace nor, indeed, Angus MacKay, is here before them. However, given Andrew's recent elevation to the ranks of Scotland's top 10 eligible bachelors, perhaps he will be excused from responding to debates in future.", "EditedTextHTML": "Not being small-minded, and not lacking in grace, let me start by thanking Andrew Wilson for providing the Parliament with an opportunity to debate this important matter. I am sorry that some members are disappointed that neither Jim Wallace nor, indeed, Angus MacKay, is here before them. However, given Andrew's recent elevation to the ranks of Scotland's top 10 eligible bachelors, perhaps he will be excused from responding to debates in future.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:25:39.4616009+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1783E59P270C709863", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Organisations", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26944, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 966.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 966.0, "ID": 26944, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Baillie, Jackie", "ID": 1783, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumbarton" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Jackie Baillie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Jackie Baillie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1064.0, "ContributionID": 709863, "EditedText": "That is a shame.Any disappointment should not lead members to question my commitment to this subject. I have not received a copy of the letter to which Andrew referred, but I will nevertheless endeavour to respond to the points that he raised. Before I do that, it might be helpful if I set out the background to the implementation of part V of the Police Act 1997. The current system of providing access to information on the criminal records of people working with children has long been acknowledged as inadequate. While arrangements are in place to cover those who work in the public sector, the absence of checks for volunteers has been of particular concern. At the same time, it is recognised that any major expansion of the existing arrangements would require significant additional public expenditure. Part V of the Police Act 1997 was designed to address some of the shortcomings of the current system and to expand considerably access to criminal record checks. The policy and legislation that we have inherited provide for those new checks to be self-financing, with those requesting the check paying a fee to cover the cost of producing it. However, this is a devolved matter; as such, it is appropriate for this Parliament to take a fresh look at the issue. That is the strength of the devolved settlement. I should say to Keith Raffan that I am not sure whether this is a partnership line rather than a Liberal line. Three levels of checks are available. First, criminal conviction certificates, which are available to everyone, will show any convictions that are unspent under the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974. Secondly, criminal record certificates are for those whose occupations are exceptions to the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974, such as doctors and solicitors. Significantly, those certificates will show all convictions, whether spent or unspent. Last, enhanced criminal record certificates are primarily for those involved in regularly caring for, training, supervising or being in sole charge of children. The legislation provides for the individual to pay the fee for the certificates, but there is nothing to prevent organisations from reimbursing individuals where they consider that to be appropriate. The checks will not be mandatory, and in the case of voluntary bodies it will be for them to decide when a check is required. The Scottish Executive plans to draw up guidance on the use of the checks, but that guidance would be non-statutory and bodies would still have to develop their own policies for dealing with positions in their organisation. In Scotland, the Scottish Criminal Record Office is already well established as the vetting authority, and it will be expanded to deal with part V. On current estimates, the demand for checks could increase by as much as 10 times; a large project is under way to equip SCRO with the staff, machines and accommodation it will need. However, because it is very difficult to assess the likely demand for certificates, we plan to commission further research into that critical area. Demand will have a direct impact on the cost of issuing certificates. I stress that we strongly support the work of volunteers and would not want the cost of checks to discourage people from volunteering to work with young people and children. The services that volunteers provide in voluntary organisations covering a wide variety of areas—including the scouts, guides and caring organisations—enhance the lives of many people. At various stages, estimates of the costs have been made. When the legislation was being passed, the Administration of the day suggested that the cost of enhanced checks might be about £10. That figure has been used subsequently, and we have no basis at this stage to expect it to be any higher. In \"Making it work together\", we made strengthening the infrastructure of the voluntary sector and volunteering a priority. We are therefore concerned about the possibility that having to pay a fee for a criminal record check could put people off volunteering and that the cost of reimbursement could put pressure on voluntary organisations' resources. For that reason—as Jim Wallace announced earlier today in his reply to Keith Raffan—we have decided to set up a review group to consider all the charging issues in detail, examine the scope for flexibility and seek positive solutions for the future. Leading figures from key voluntary organisations will be invited to join the review team, which I will chair.Last month, I made a strong statement to the Parliament about the voluntary sector. I emphasised that the Scottish Executive is committed to developing a new relationship with the sector. I pointed out that the sector is playing a key role in supporting a range of policies. I also said that I was strongly committed to supporting and developing volunteering as a vital example of active citizenship. I meant what I said. Next month, I will ask the Scottish Parliament to endorse the Scottish compact, which sets out the principles that underpin the new relationship of positive partnership with the sector. One of those key principles is that, in the process of policy making, the impact of changes in policy and procedure on the voluntary sector and volunteering are considered and taken fully into account. I think that that is precisely what we have done by establishing the review group. I am committed to working with the voluntary sector and volunteers on issues of mutual interest in a productive partnership which accurately reflects the needs of both parties. Those are not just fine words. Today's announcement of a review of charging makes it clear that the commitment is real. There are no easy answers. Charging for criminal record checks has been considered previously. Hard choices will need to be made about priorities. However, I am confident that by working together we will find a way froward. As the minister with responsibility for the volunteering sector and chair of the review group, I am determined to find a way forward and I will carefully consider what has been said today. The review has been welcomed by the sector. It is about partnership with the voluntary sector, which does not simply want money all the time. It wants to work towards a solution and does not want an uncosted, underdeveloped proposal. I reject the contention that Fiona McLeod made at the end of her otherwise useful speech, because I believe that the Executive does care. I must take this opportunity to stress the importance of considering criminal record checks in context. A clear criminal record check cannot be treated as a guarantee that a person is suitable to work with children. The certificates can form only part of a thorough vetting process. Nor should a conviction automatically mean that the person is unsuitable—Keith Raffan is right on that point. This sensitive information needs to be handled carefully and we are working with representatives of the organisations that will make use of the checks. We must use the legislation to improve the protection of vulnerable children—Cathy Jamieson is right, and that is our primary concern—but we will do so in consultation and partnership with the voluntary sector, in the spirit of the compact.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is a shame.

Any disappointment should not lead members to question my commitment to this subject. I have not received a copy of the letter to which Andrew referred, but I will nevertheless endeavour to respond to the points that he raised. Before I do that, it might be helpful if I set out the background to the implementation of part V of the Police Act 1997.

The current system of providing access to information on the criminal records of people working with children has long been acknowledged as inadequate. While arrangements are in place to cover those who work in the public sector, the absence of checks for volunteers has been of particular concern. At the same time, it is recognised that any major expansion of the existing arrangements would require significant additional public expenditure.

Part V of the Police Act 1997 was designed to address some of the shortcomings of the current system and to expand considerably access to criminal record checks. The policy and legislation that we have inherited provide for those new checks to be self-financing, with those requesting the check paying a fee to cover the cost of producing it. However, this is a devolved matter; as such, it is appropriate for this Parliament to take a fresh look at the issue. That is the strength of the devolved settlement. I should say to Keith Raffan that I am not sure whether this is a partnership line rather than a Liberal line.

Three levels of checks are available. First, criminal conviction certificates, which are available to everyone, will show any convictions that are unspent under the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974. Secondly, criminal record certificates are for those whose occupations are exceptions to the

Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974, such as doctors and solicitors. Significantly, those certificates will show all convictions, whether spent or unspent. Last, enhanced criminal record certificates are primarily for those involved in regularly caring for, training, supervising or being in sole charge of children.

The legislation provides for the individual to pay the fee for the certificates, but there is nothing to prevent organisations from reimbursing individuals where they consider that to be appropriate. The checks will not be mandatory, and in the case of voluntary bodies it will be for them to decide when a check is required. The Scottish Executive plans to draw up guidance on the use of the checks, but that guidance would be non-statutory and bodies would still have to develop their own policies for dealing with positions in their organisation.

In Scotland, the Scottish Criminal Record Office is already well established as the vetting authority, and it will be expanded to deal with part V. On current estimates, the demand for checks could increase by as much as 10 times; a large project is under way to equip SCRO with the staff, machines and accommodation it will need. However, because it is very difficult to assess the likely demand for certificates, we plan to commission further research into that critical area. Demand will have a direct impact on the cost of issuing certificates.

I stress that we strongly support the work of volunteers and would not want the cost of checks to discourage people from volunteering to work with young people and children. The services that volunteers provide in voluntary organisations covering a wide variety of areas—including the scouts, guides and caring organisations—enhance the lives of many people.

At various stages, estimates of the costs have been made. When the legislation was being passed, the Administration of the day suggested that the cost of enhanced checks might be about £10. That figure has been used subsequently, and we have no basis at this stage to expect it to be any higher.

In \"Making it work together\", we made strengthening the infrastructure of the voluntary sector and volunteering a priority. We are therefore concerned about the possibility that having to pay a fee for a criminal record check could put people off volunteering and that the cost of reimbursement could put pressure on voluntary organisations' resources. For that reason—as Jim Wallace announced earlier today in his reply to Keith Raffan—we have decided to set up a review group to consider all the charging issues in detail, examine the scope for flexibility and seek positive solutions for the future. Leading figures from key voluntary organisations will be invited to join the

review team, which I will chair.

Last month, I made a strong statement to the Parliament about the voluntary sector. I emphasised that the Scottish Executive is committed to developing a new relationship with the sector. I pointed out that the sector is playing a key role in supporting a range of policies. I also said that I was strongly committed to supporting and developing volunteering as a vital example of active citizenship. I meant what I said.

Next month, I will ask the Scottish Parliament to endorse the Scottish compact, which sets out the principles that underpin the new relationship of positive partnership with the sector. One of those key principles is that, in the process of policy making, the impact of changes in policy and procedure on the voluntary sector and volunteering are considered and taken fully into account. I think that that is precisely what we have done by establishing the review group.

I am committed to working with the voluntary sector and volunteers on issues of mutual interest in a productive partnership which accurately reflects the needs of both parties. Those are not just fine words. Today's announcement of a review of charging makes it clear that the commitment is real.

There are no easy answers. Charging for criminal record checks has been considered previously. Hard choices will need to be made about priorities. However, I am confident that by working together we will find a way froward. As the minister with responsibility for the volunteering sector and chair of the review group, I am determined to find a way forward and I will carefully consider what has been said today.

The review has been welcomed by the sector. It is about partnership with the voluntary sector, which does not simply want money all the time. It wants to work towards a solution and does not want an uncosted, underdeveloped proposal. I reject the contention that Fiona McLeod made at the end of her otherwise useful speech, because I believe that the Executive does care.

I must take this opportunity to stress the importance of considering criminal record checks in context. A clear criminal record check cannot be treated as a guarantee that a person is suitable to work with children. The certificates can form only part of a thorough vetting process. Nor should a conviction automatically mean that the person is unsuitable—Keith Raffan is right on that point. This sensitive information needs to be handled carefully and we are working with representatives of the organisations that will make use of the checks.

We must use the legislation to improve the protection of vulnerable children—Cathy Jamieson is right, and that is our primary concern—but we will do so in consultation and partnership with the voluntary sector, in the spirit of the compact.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:25:39.4616009+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709354", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 8.0, "ContributionID": 709354, "EditedText": "I thank Mr Swinney for the notice, albeit short, that he courteously gave me of this point of order. Does any member of the Executive wish to respond to Mr Swinney's point of order?", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank Mr Swinney for the notice, albeit short, that he courteously gave me of this point of order.

Does any member of the Executive wish to respond to Mr Swinney's point of order?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C709355", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister (Donald Dewar): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 10.0, "ContributionID": 709355, "EditedText": "In fact, I did not get any notice of the point of order. The matter has just been drawn to my attention in the past two minutes. Mr Swinney has half a good point, which he is managing to turn into a bad point by expanding enormously on it. It is clear that there has been an omission from the text of the motion. The motion should read, \"the Cabinet of the National Assembly for Wales\". However, the purpose of this debate is quite clear. Furthermore, to take up Mr Swinney's point, we are asking the Parliament to \"endorse\" the memorandum, while the Welsh National Assembly will merely \"take note\" of the document. As a result, we are giving this Parliament a greater part in proceedings than our Welsh colleagues are apparently intending to do with their Assembly. In any event, I accept Mr Swinney's point and congratulate him, or whoever it was, for noticing the omission. The text should read, \"the Cabinet of the National Assembly for Wales\"which is the phrase in the first paragraph of the first part of the memorandum. This document is an agreement between Administrations and Whitehall departments. Presiding Officer, would you allow me to submit a manuscript amendment as the matter only involves a textual change? Although I apologise for the omission, I do not think that it substantially alters the purpose of our business.", "EditedTextHTML": "In fact, I did not get any notice of the point of order. The matter has just been drawn to my attention in the past two minutes.

Mr Swinney has half a good point, which he is managing to turn into a bad point by expanding enormously on it. It is clear that there has been an omission from the text of the motion. The motion should read, \"the Cabinet of the National Assembly for Wales\".

However, the purpose of this debate is quite clear. Furthermore, to take up Mr Swinney's point, we are asking the Parliament to \"endorse\" the memorandum, while the Welsh National Assembly will merely \"take note\" of the document. As a result, we are giving this Parliament a greater part in proceedings than our Welsh colleagues are apparently intending to do with their Assembly.

In any event, I accept Mr Swinney's point and congratulate him, or whoever it was, for noticing the omission. The text should read,

\"the Cabinet of the National Assembly for Wales\"

which is the phrase in the first paragraph of the first part of the memorandum. This document is an agreement between Administrations and Whitehall departments. Presiding Officer, would you allow me to submit a manuscript amendment as the matter only involves a textual change? Although I apologise for the omission, I do not think that it substantially alters the purpose of our business.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C709358", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister (Donald Dewar): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 17.0, "ContributionID": 709358, "EditedText": "I was entertained by that exercise in barrack-room lawyers' skills. I say that as a compliment to Mr Swinney—I have never sneered at able barrack- room lawyers. They are pests and, as far as I am concerned, Mr Swinney aspires to be a pest. He ought to be pleased that I recognise that fact. The memorandum of understanding is a brief, but important, document. It has been written with both economy of style and great clarity and has not imposed an enormous burden of reading on MSPs. The document deals with relations involving Whitehall departments, the UK government, the Scottish Executive and the Cabinet of the National Assembly of Wales. We also hope to include the cabinet or executive of the Northern Ireland Assembly when that administration emerges. The one useful aspect of the exchanges of the past few minutes is that I am able to underline the fact that this document deals with working relationships between the Administrations that are party to it. This is not a legally binding document that can be enforced through litigation or in the courts. It outlines sensible working practice and is the result of a team effort involving Westminster, Holyrood, Cardiff and the people of Northern Ireland. From the beginning of talks until 1 July, Scottish Office civil servants who now serve the Administration were very involved in bilateral meetings between officials. The document outlines a clear and sensible set of ground rules by which to order our relations with others who have an interest in the devolution settlement and with whom we will have to work in future. As John Swinney has pointed out, the Executive's motion is deliberately not a take-note motion; we are asking for the Parliament's endorsement of the document. However, I stress again that the document should be seen as a set of administrative ground rules. The concordats are essentially working documents, which will contribute to the smooth running of relationships under devolution. Some unkind souls have called them road maps for bureaucrats. Perhaps that is unkind, but it is not wholly unfair as it is important for bureaucrats to have road maps to know how the system works.", "EditedTextHTML": "I was entertained by that exercise in barrack-room lawyers' skills. I say that as a compliment to Mr Swinney—I have never sneered at able barrack- room lawyers. They are pests and, as far as I am concerned, Mr Swinney aspires to be a pest. He ought to be pleased that I recognise that fact.

The memorandum of understanding is a brief, but important, document. It has been written with both economy of style and great clarity and has not imposed an enormous burden of reading on MSPs.

The document deals with relations involving Whitehall departments, the UK government, the Scottish Executive and the Cabinet of the National Assembly of Wales. We also hope to include the cabinet or executive of the Northern Ireland Assembly when that administration emerges.

The one useful aspect of the exchanges of the past few minutes is that I am able to underline the fact that this document deals with working relationships between the Administrations that are party to it. This is not a legally binding document that can be enforced through litigation or in the courts. It outlines sensible working practice and is the result of a team effort involving Westminster, Holyrood, Cardiff and the people of Northern Ireland.

From the beginning of talks until 1 July, Scottish Office civil servants who now serve the Administration were very involved in bilateral meetings between officials. The document outlines a clear and sensible set of ground rules by which to order our relations with others who have an interest in the devolution settlement and with whom we will have to work in future.

As John Swinney has pointed out, the Executive's motion is deliberately not a take-note motion; we are asking for the Parliament's endorsement of the document. However, I stress again that the document should be seen as a set of administrative ground rules.

The concordats are essentially working documents, which will contribute to the smooth running of relationships under devolution. Some unkind souls have called them road maps for bureaucrats. Perhaps that is unkind, but it is not wholly unfair as it is important for bureaucrats to have road maps to know how the system works.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C709362", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 25.0, "ContributionID": 709362, "EditedText": "One of the features of this Parliament is a range of committees that are probably more powerful than any parliamentary committees that I have seen. They have a life and responsibilities of their own. It would not be beyond the wit and wisdom of the European Committee, for example, under the convenership of my colleague Hugh Henry, if he suspects that things are going wrong, to call witnesses, to scrutinise and inquire into the record and to call ministers. If there was discontent about the outcome of that, it could come back to the floor of this chamber, which, ultimately, is the place where final decisions have to be taken. The concordats are working documents, and my contention to this Parliament is that it is very important that they are in place. In the course of time, whatever the good intentions in the opening period, one may find that the proper procedures slip; people may start to omit and to forget. It is extremely useful for ourselves and for our colleagues in Wales and, potentially, in Northern Ireland, to have such a working document. In the Westminster setting, it is a familiar piece of machinery. I think that it is right for it to be extended, in the interests of good order, to our relations with the rest of the Government machinery within the United Kingdom. I will hurry on, because I am conscious of the time. Members will forgive me if I do not take too many interventions. There are five documents contained within the paper that we have laid before the Parliament. The memorandum of understanding sets out the main principles of the relationship and deals with communication, consultation between Administrations, exchange of information and confidentiality and the monitoring and management of the devolution settlements. There is an annexe to the memorandum, which people will no doubt wish to examine closely. It details the terms of reference of the joint ministerial committee, its format and working practices. The package also contains more detailed concordats dealing with co-ordination of European Union policy issues, international relations, statistics and financial assistance to industry. All those will be of interest to members. There has been a lengthy gestation period. I accept that. This batch of concordats had to be approved by all the potential partners—I say potential because Northern Ireland was in a slightly different situation—and worked out between all the Whitehall departments with an interest. The delay has been not only legitimate, but valuable, because it has produced a careful set of working documents, which will of course be followed by bilateral documents involving the Scottish Executive and individual departments. The delay has perhaps provoked a good deal of speculation. It has certainly provoked a substantial mass of parliamentary questions, as members opposite have set off on a determined fishing expedition. I imagine that we will have the normal low-key closure to the debate from Alex Neil, who has been notorious—", "EditedTextHTML": "One of the features of this Parliament is a range of committees that are probably more powerful than any parliamentary committees that I have seen. They have a life and responsibilities of their own. It would not be beyond the wit and wisdom of the European Committee, for example, under the convenership of my colleague Hugh Henry, if he suspects that things are going wrong, to call witnesses, to scrutinise and inquire into the record and to call ministers. If there was discontent about the outcome of that, it could come back to the floor of this chamber, which, ultimately, is the place where final decisions have to be taken.

The concordats are working documents, and my contention to this Parliament is that it is very important that they are in place. In the course of time, whatever the good intentions in the opening period, one may find that the proper procedures slip; people may start to omit and to forget. It is extremely useful for ourselves and for our colleagues in Wales and, potentially, in Northern Ireland, to have such a working document. In the Westminster setting, it is a familiar piece of machinery. I think that it is right for it to be extended, in the interests of good order, to our relations with the rest of the Government machinery within the United Kingdom.

I will hurry on, because I am conscious of the time. Members will forgive me if I do not take too many interventions.

There are five documents contained within the paper that we have laid before the Parliament. The memorandum of understanding sets out the main principles of the relationship and deals with communication, consultation between Administrations, exchange of information and confidentiality and the monitoring and management of the devolution settlements.

There is an annexe to the memorandum, which people will no doubt wish to examine closely. It details the terms of reference of the joint ministerial committee, its format and working practices.

The package also contains more detailed concordats dealing with co-ordination of European Union policy issues, international relations, statistics and financial assistance to industry. All those will be of interest to members.

There has been a lengthy gestation period. I accept that. This batch of concordats had to be approved by all the potential partners—I say potential because Northern Ireland was in a slightly different situation—and worked out between all the Whitehall departments with an interest.

The delay has been not only legitimate, but valuable, because it has produced a careful set of working documents, which will of course be followed by bilateral documents involving the Scottish Executive and individual departments. The delay has perhaps provoked a good deal of speculation. It has certainly provoked a substantial mass of parliamentary questions, as members opposite have set off on a determined fishing expedition. I imagine that we will have the normal low-key closure to the debate from Alex Neil, who has been notorious—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C709367", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 35.0, "ContributionID": 709367, "EditedText": "I put it to Margaret Ewing, who rises, that that is proper and is what should be expected. There is therefore no cause for trying to set up a series of false objectives and then complaining that they have not been met.", "EditedTextHTML": "I put it to Margaret Ewing, who rises, that that is proper and is what should be expected. There is therefore no cause for trying to set up a series of false objectives and then complaining that they have not been met.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C709372", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 45.0, "ContributionID": 709372, "EditedText": "I will give way briefly.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will give way briefly.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709373", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 47.0, "ContributionID": 709373, "EditedText": "I call Mr Henry.", "EditedTextHTML": "I call Mr Henry.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2029E47P167C709374", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Henry, Hugh", "ID": 2029, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Hugh Henry", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Hugh Henry: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 49.0, "ContributionID": 709374, "EditedText": "Alex Neil commented that the concordats are defective because they have been drafted in secret in London, and that they are heavily weighted towards London's interest. He has now listened to what the First Minister has said. Will the First Minister confirm that the Scottish Executive and the other partners have been fully involved in the discussions on the concordat?", "EditedTextHTML": "Alex Neil commented that the concordats are defective because they have been drafted in secret in London, and that they are heavily weighted towards London's interest. He has now listened to what the First Minister has said. Will the First Minister confirm that the Scottish Executive and the other partners have been fully involved in the discussions on the concordat?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C709376", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 53.0, "ContributionID": 709376, "EditedText": "Will the First Minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the First Minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C709379", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 59.0, "ContributionID": 709379, "EditedText": "That is a tremendously clever point, but it shows a total misunderstanding of the constitutional position. The drafts were prepared, against the backdrop of the arrival of devolution, by the United Kingdom Government, which included the Scottish Office, the relevant partner at the time. We could not consult a Scottish Executive that did not exist. Once the Executive came into existence, the drafts were sent to it for its approval and for continuing adjustment. The situation is perfectly straightforward. Alex Neil is chasing around looking for problems that are not there and for conspiracies that do not exist, which is not a particularly becoming occupation. John Swinney must also have been let down by his research assistants, because what Henry McLeish said was that: \"The concordats are not intended to be legally binding contracts, or to substitute for matters properly covered by the Bill. However, it is likely that they will be justiciable to an extent. For example, if the Scottish Executive did not follow the consultation procedure set out in a concordat, it could be judicially challenged on the ground that the concordat had created a legitimate expectation that the procedure would be followed.\"—Official Report, House of Commons, 12 May 1998; Vol 312, c 193.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is a tremendously clever point, but it shows a total misunderstanding of the constitutional position. The drafts were prepared, against the backdrop of the arrival of devolution, by the United Kingdom Government, which included the Scottish Office, the relevant partner at the time. We could not consult a Scottish Executive that did not exist. Once the Executive came into existence, the drafts were sent to it for its approval and for continuing adjustment.

The situation is perfectly straightforward. Alex Neil is chasing around looking for problems that are not there and for conspiracies that do not exist, which is not a particularly becoming occupation.

John Swinney must also have been let down by his research assistants, because what Henry McLeish said was that:

\"The concordats are not intended to be legally binding contracts, or to substitute for matters properly covered by the Bill. However, it is likely that they will be justiciable to an extent. For example, if the Scottish Executive did not follow the consultation procedure set out in a concordat, it could be judicially challenged on the ground that the concordat had created a legitimate expectation that the procedure would be followed.\"—[Official Report, House of Commons, 12 May 1998; Vol 312, c 193.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C709381", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 63.0, "ContributionID": 709381, "EditedText": "No. You missed out the fact that the concordats are not intended to be legally binding. Mr McLeish was clearly referring to the possibility of judicial review. We must be clear about that.", "EditedTextHTML": "No. You missed out the fact that the concordats are not intended to be legally binding. Mr McLeish was clearly referring to the possibility of judicial review. We must be clear about that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C709385", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 71.0, "ContributionID": 709385, "EditedText": "I am sorry, but I must press on.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry, but I must press on.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1878E208P502C709386", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Dr Winnie", "ID": 1878, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Winnie Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 73.0, "ContributionID": 709386, "EditedText": "I have a question on a European matter.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have a question on a European matter.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C709387", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 75.0, "ContributionID": 709387, "EditedText": "I will let Dr Ewing in just this once.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will let Dr Ewing in just this once.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709388", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 77.0, "ContributionID": 709388, "EditedText": "Dr Ewing, you must insert your card for your microphone to work.", "EditedTextHTML": "Dr Ewing, you must insert your card for your microphone to work.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709394", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 89.0, "ContributionID": 709394, "EditedText": "I was going to deal with Mr Swinney's point of order first. Is your point of order on the same issue, Mr Tosh?", "EditedTextHTML": "I was going to deal with Mr Swinney's point of order first. Is your point of order on the same issue, Mr Tosh?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C709399", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 100.0, "ContributionID": 709399, "EditedText": "Thank you, Presiding Officer. I give notice that I shall move the amendment and the amendment to the amendment to take account of the Executive's amendment to its motion. Laughter. We might be here from 5 pm until 5.30 pm tonight to vote on all these amendments. I thank the First Minister for the very kind personal remarks that he made at the start of his speech.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you, Presiding Officer. I give notice that I shall move the amendment and the amendment to the amendment to take account of the Executive's amendment to its motion. [Laughter.] We might be here from 5 pm until 5.30 pm tonight to vote on all these amendments.

I thank the First Minister for the very kind personal remarks that he made at the start of his speech.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C709400", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 102.0, "ContributionID": 709400, "EditedText": "Any time.", "EditedTextHTML": "Any time.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C709403", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 108.0, "ContributionID": 709403, "EditedText": "We represent Scotland's interests all the time, as I will explain.", "EditedTextHTML": "We represent Scotland's interests all the time, as I will explain.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C709406", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 114.0, "ContributionID": 709406, "EditedText": "In agreeing with Mr Neil in his criticism of how this matter was introduced into the public domain, I ask him to clarify his position. Does the Scottish National party believe that there should be no concordats, in principle, or does Mr Neil's argument lie with how matters have been handled?", "EditedTextHTML": "In agreeing with Mr Neil in his criticism of how this matter was introduced into the public domain, I ask him to clarify his position. Does the Scottish National party believe that there should be no concordats, in principle, or does Mr Neil's argument lie with how matters have been handled?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C709407", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 116.0, "ContributionID": 709407, "EditedText": "We are quite happy that concordats have to exist, whether the situation is one of devolution or independence. We object to these particular concordats. I will discuss the detail of our criticisms in a moment. To rub salt into the wound, the Parliament has not been, and will not be, given access to the minutes of the joint ministerial committee and other committees that are to be set up under the terms of the agreements. Earlier, Murray Tosh raised a valid point about the need for this Parliament to scrutinise the work of those committees. How can the Parliament scrutinise that work effectively if we do not have access to it? It is beyond belief that the Bank of England's monetary policy committee can publish its minutes, which concern sensitive issues such as interest and exchange rates, but the Parliament cannot have access to the minutes of the proposed joint ministerial committee. Parliament should insist on access to those minutes, other than where they deal with matters such as national security—if, indeed, they will deal with such matters. I will turn to some matters of substance in the agreements. The way in which the joint ministerial committee is to be set up and operated exposes a fundamental flaw at the core of the agreements. UK ministers are to be charged with representing the interests of England as well as those of the UK as a whole, as paragraph 1 of the memorandum of understanding spells out. In other words, the English UK ministers will be expected to wear two hats—an English hat and a UK hat. The clear implication is that the UK's interests will be synonymous with those of England. I suggest that any politician—even one as skilled as the First Minister—who can successfully wear English and UK hats at the same time, and satisfy the demands of each, would make Houdini look positively arthritic. I will give three examples of where this situation could and would create serious difficulties and unnecessary rancour and resentment, either north or south of the border. This is a two-way process; it is as easy for people in England to feel resentment over some aspects of the agreements as it is for people in Scotland. The first example relates to something that took place at the stroke of a Westminster pen earlier this year—the transfer of 6,000 square miles of Scottish fishing waters from the jurisdiction of Scotland to that of England. The English interest would be for those waters to be transferred, whereas the Scottish interest would be for them to remain under Scottish jurisdiction. If there had been a ministerial committee, chaired by the English UK minister, and he overruled the majority view—as he would be entitled to do under these agreements, with the final arbiter being that great ex-Scotsman Tony Blair—that would turn what is supposed to be a concordat into a discordat. That would cause enormous resentment—in this case north of the border. My second example concerns housing benefit reforms that will be announced in an English green paper on housing in the next six months or so. Huge differences exist between Scotland and England in the housing market, so some of the reforms that are proposed for England would be wholly inappropriate for Scotland. If the English UK minister chairing the joint ministerial committee on housing benefit reform forced through an English solution and tried to impose it on Scotland, that would also cause unnecessary rancour and resentment north of the border. It could also have a serious impact on the living standards of those people in Scotland who rely on housing benefit. The third example relates to the Cubie committee on the future of student finances in Scotland. We read in last weekend's newspapers, as we have in previous weeks, that David Blunkett—who would be the English UK minister chairing a joint ministerial committee on student finance—is prepared to overrule the recommendations of the Cubie committee and of the Scottish Executive and the Scottish Parliament. In other words, the English minister could unilaterally overrule the express wishes of the Scottish people on this policy area. That situation is totally unacceptable to Scotland. Of particular concern is the proposed overseas promotion committee, which—as the First Minister outlined—will oversee inward investment projects. It will be totally dominated by English UK ministers who will have the back-up of the Invest in Britain Bureau and the 10 new regional development agencies that will cover the whole of England. What chance does Locate in Scotland have against all those bodies?", "EditedTextHTML": "We are quite happy that concordats have to exist, whether the situation is one of devolution or independence. We object to these particular concordats. I will discuss the detail of our criticisms in a moment.

To rub salt into the wound, the Parliament has not been, and will not be, given access to the minutes of the joint ministerial committee and other committees that are to be set up under the terms of the agreements. Earlier, Murray Tosh raised a valid point about the need for this Parliament to scrutinise the work of those committees. How can the Parliament scrutinise that work effectively if we do not have access to it? It is beyond belief that the Bank of England's monetary policy committee can publish its minutes, which concern sensitive issues such as interest and exchange rates, but the Parliament

cannot have access to the minutes of the proposed joint ministerial committee. Parliament should insist on access to those minutes, other than where they deal with matters such as national security—if, indeed, they will deal with such matters.

I will turn to some matters of substance in the agreements. The way in which the joint ministerial committee is to be set up and operated exposes a fundamental flaw at the core of the agreements. UK ministers are to be charged with representing the interests of England as well as those of the UK as a whole, as paragraph 1 of the memorandum of understanding spells out. In other words, the English UK ministers will be expected to wear two hats—an English hat and a UK hat. The clear implication is that the UK's interests will be synonymous with those of England. I suggest that any politician—even one as skilled as the First Minister—who can successfully wear English and UK hats at the same time, and satisfy the demands of each, would make Houdini look positively arthritic.

I will give three examples of where this situation could and would create serious difficulties and unnecessary rancour and resentment, either north or south of the border. This is a two-way process; it is as easy for people in England to feel resentment over some aspects of the agreements as it is for people in Scotland.

The first example relates to something that took place at the stroke of a Westminster pen earlier this year—the transfer of 6,000 square miles of Scottish fishing waters from the jurisdiction of Scotland to that of England. The English interest would be for those waters to be transferred, whereas the Scottish interest would be for them to remain under Scottish jurisdiction. If there had been a ministerial committee, chaired by the English UK minister, and he overruled the majority view—as he would be entitled to do under these agreements, with the final arbiter being that great ex-Scotsman Tony Blair—that would turn what is supposed to be a concordat into a discordat. That would cause enormous resentment—in this case north of the border.

My second example concerns housing benefit reforms that will be announced in an English green paper on housing in the next six months or so. Huge differences exist between Scotland and England in the housing market, so some of the reforms that are proposed for England would be wholly inappropriate for Scotland. If the English UK minister chairing the joint ministerial committee on housing benefit reform forced through an English solution and tried to impose it on Scotland, that would also cause unnecessary rancour and resentment north of the border. It could also have a serious impact on the living standards of those people in Scotland who rely on housing benefit.

The third example relates to the Cubie committee on the future of student finances in Scotland. We read in last weekend's newspapers, as we have in previous weeks, that David Blunkett—who would be the English UK minister chairing a joint ministerial committee on student finance—is prepared to overrule the recommendations of the Cubie committee and of the Scottish Executive and the Scottish Parliament. In other words, the English minister could unilaterally overrule the express wishes of the Scottish people on this policy area. That situation is totally unacceptable to Scotland.

Of particular concern is the proposed overseas promotion committee, which—as the First Minister outlined—will oversee inward investment projects. It will be totally dominated by English UK ministers who will have the back-up of the Invest in Britain Bureau and the 10 new regional development agencies that will cover the whole of England. What chance does Locate in Scotland have against all those bodies?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C709409", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 120.0, "ContributionID": 709409, "EditedText": "The First Minister might not have read the document in detail, but it says on almost every page that the UK Government will have the last word on everything. That means that it can overrule anything that this Parliament decides. The document emphasises the fact that the Westminster Parliament can legislate even on devolved matters. I do not have a persecution complex; I think that the jerseys of the people of Scotland have been sold.", "EditedTextHTML": "The First Minister might not have read the document in detail, but it says on almost every page that the UK Government will have the last word on everything. That means that it can overrule anything that this Parliament decides. The document emphasises the fact that the Westminster Parliament can legislate even on devolved matters. I do not have a persecution complex; I think that the jerseys of the people of Scotland have been sold.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C709410", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 122.0, "ContributionID": 709410, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C709419", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Annabel Goldie (West of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 141.0, "ContributionID": 709419, "EditedText": "You will be relieved to hear, Sir David, that I will not be moving anything—", "EditedTextHTML": "You will be relieved to hear, Sir David, that I will not be moving anything—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709422", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 147.0, "ContributionID": 709422, "EditedText": "Please speak throughthe chair, Annabel.", "EditedTextHTML": "Please speak through

the chair, Annabel.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709424", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 151.0, "ContributionID": 709424, "EditedText": "Order. We cannot have muttering in other parts of the chamber during a speech.", "EditedTextHTML": "Order. We cannot have muttering in other parts of the chamber during a speech.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C709427", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Goldie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 157.0, "ContributionID": 709427, "EditedText": "I thank Mr Swinney for that comment. I was going to expand on that in my remarks. The underlying approach of the Conservatives in this Parliament is that we want the Parliament to work. Rather than the covertness, furtiveness and constant shadow of secrecy with which the Executive is tainted, we should have a Parliament that is graced by transparency, visibility and honesty. Time and again we see behaviour that is redolent of dominance and we see furtive retention of information. That may be uncomfortable for the Executive to acknowledge, Mr Dewar, but that is how many other members view the behaviour of the Executive. There is a spirit of co-operation in this chamber on this subject and a desire—at least among the parties that believe in the United Kingdom—for the concordats to work. Given that, it is ironic that an opportunity for consideration, discussion or even disclosure of some of what was proposed in the document was denied to us. If that information had been made available, Mr Dewar, the chances are that the memorandum would have been a better document.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank Mr Swinney for that comment. I was going to expand on that in my remarks.

The underlying approach of the Conservatives in this Parliament is that we want the Parliament to work. Rather than the covertness, furtiveness and constant shadow of secrecy with which the Executive is tainted, we should have a Parliament that is graced by transparency, visibility and honesty. Time and again we see behaviour that is redolent of dominance and we see furtive retention of information. That may be uncomfortable for the Executive to acknowledge, Mr Dewar, but that is how many other members view the behaviour of the Executive.

There is a spirit of co-operation in this chamber on this subject and a desire—at least among the parties that believe in the United Kingdom—for the concordats to work. Given that, it is ironic that an opportunity for consideration, discussion or even disclosure of some of what was proposed in the document was denied to us. If that information had been made available, Mr Dewar, the chances are that the memorandum would have been a better document.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C709428", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 159.0, "ContributionID": 709428, "EditedText": "I am interested to hear that. I understand that line of argument; it is a predictable one. However, can Annabel Goldie tell me of any instance in British politics over the past 20 years when administrative documents of this kind have been formalised in the way that she is suggesting? Does she realise that she is suggesting that every Parliament that is involved in this—except the Northern Ireland one, which would have to come in later to ask for changes— would need to have the right to make their amendments, as the concordats are quadrilateral? That would mean, above all, that the Westminster Parliament would have to debate, amend and insist on changes. Is that really what she is suggesting for what is an administrative document—a working guide between departments? If she is suggesting that there is some sort of deprivation of rights, will she tell me when those rights have ever existed?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am interested to hear that. I understand that line of argument; it is a predictable one. However, can Annabel Goldie tell me of any instance in British politics over the past 20 years when administrative documents of this kind have been formalised in the way that she is suggesting? Does she realise that she is suggesting that every Parliament that is involved in this—except the Northern Ireland one, which would have to come in later to ask for changes— would need to have the right to make their amendments, as the concordats are quadrilateral? That would mean, above all, that the Westminster Parliament would have to debate, amend and insist on changes. Is that really what she is suggesting for what is an administrative document—a working guide between departments? If she is suggesting that there is some sort of deprivation of rights, will she tell me when those rights have ever existed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C709431", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Goldie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 165.0, "ContributionID": 709431, "EditedText": "I apologise, Sir David. My natural amity for the First Minister will have to become slightly more obscure. In the spirit of wanting the memorandum to succeed, I feel that it would have been helpful for us to have had some indication of the draft contents. We accept that there might have been a limit on the efficacy or completeness with which we, as a devolved Parliament, could have regarded these documents, but a little information, and the facility to contribute ideas, would have been both healthy and helpful. We know that there will be additional concordats; what we have here is just the first batch. I hope that there will be an opportunity— and I urge the Executive to consider this—for some disclosure of what those concordats are likely to govern and embrace. If the subject is relevant to our own parliamentary committees, we might want to make some comment, suggestion or proposal—not to be didactic or binding, or to have legal effect, but simply to be helpful. I was interested in what both Mr Neil and Mr Swinney said about the assertion that the memorandum is not legally binding. Some play was made of Mr McLeish's contribution to the debate in the House of Commons. I, too, have a slight concern. An authoritative view was expressed in the House of Lords by the English Solicitor-General on second reading of the Government of Wales Bill. Lord Falconer made a good point, saying of the concordats: \"They will not take the form of binding contracts; they will not take the form of statutory documents, but it may well be the case that they will create a legitimate expectation of consultation. For instance, if one party to a concordat suddenly ceased to consult the other in accordance with the concordat, the result might be that its decisions could be challenged by way of judicial review, so it is wrong to say that there will be no legal underpinning to these concordats.\"—Official Report, House of Lords, 21 April 1998; Vol 588, c 1131. My concern is that we are straying on to a potential law-making facility and that we may be doing so through the back door. I do not think that that is healthy. If, in Scotland, a potential investor felt that his or her rights had been ignored or disregarded by the Executive, in relation to the directions within the concordats—it might be a lack of consultation or whatever—that investor might seek judicial review in the Court of Session. His case might be founded on the alleged lack of consultation or some other neglect or failure by the Executive in relation to the concordats. I am concerned that this Parliament has not had an opportunity to examine in detail the text of these documents. I do not want to labour the point; I simply make it and observe that it is one issue over which the Conservatives have concerns. The joint ministerial committee seems to have been conceived with good intent, but I am not sure just how it will operate. According to the memorandum of understanding, the joint ministerial committee is to carry out various tasks. Its terms of reference are to consider various matters, to keep arrangements for liaison and to consider disputes. I am not quite sure about the committee's status. I am not sure whether it is consultative or executive; perhaps it is meant to be neither. The Executive has a duty to this Parliament to clarify how it regards the status and structure of that committee. It is important for us to know precisely how the committee is meant to operate. There is a feeling—unworthy, perhaps—that the committee's status may deliberately have been made vague. It may be a deliberate fudge to deal with Governments of different colours in different parts of the United Kingdom. If the Conservatives were in government in the United Kingdom and in Scotland, those fears would be groundless. However, if there are to be different Administrations in different parts of the United Kingdom, there may be difficulties in the way in which the joint ministerial committee functions.", "EditedTextHTML": "I apologise, Sir David. My natural amity for the First Minister will have to become slightly more obscure.

In the spirit of wanting the memorandum to succeed, I feel that it would have been helpful for us to have had some indication of the draft contents. We accept that there might have been a limit on the efficacy or completeness with which we, as a devolved Parliament, could have regarded these documents, but a little information, and the facility to contribute ideas, would have been both healthy and helpful.

We know that there will be additional concordats; what we have here is just the first batch. I hope that there will be an opportunity— and I urge the Executive to consider this—for some disclosure of what those concordats are likely to govern and embrace. If the subject is relevant to our own parliamentary committees, we might want to make some comment, suggestion or proposal—not to be didactic or binding, or to have legal effect, but simply to be helpful.

I was interested in what both Mr Neil and Mr Swinney said about the assertion that the memorandum is not legally binding. Some play was made of Mr McLeish's contribution to the debate in the House of Commons. I, too, have a slight concern. An authoritative view was expressed in the House of Lords by the English Solicitor-General on second reading of the Government of Wales Bill. Lord Falconer made a good point, saying of the concordats:

\"They will not take the form of binding contracts; they will not take the form of statutory documents, but it may well be the case that they will create a legitimate expectation of consultation. For instance, if one party to a concordat suddenly ceased to consult the other in accordance with the concordat, the result might be that its decisions could be challenged by way of judicial review, so it is wrong to say that there will be no legal underpinning to these concordats.\"—[Official Report, House of Lords, 21 April 1998; Vol 588, c 1131.]

My concern is that we are straying on to a potential law-making facility and that we may be doing so through the back door. I do not think that that is healthy. If, in Scotland, a potential investor felt that his or her rights had been ignored or disregarded by the Executive, in relation to the directions within the concordats—it might be a lack of consultation or whatever—that investor might seek judicial review in the Court of Session. His case might be founded on the alleged lack of consultation or some other neglect or failure by the Executive in relation to the concordats. I am concerned that this Parliament has not had an opportunity to examine in detail the text of these documents. I do not want to labour the point; I simply make it and observe that it is one issue over which the Conservatives have concerns.

The joint ministerial committee seems to have been conceived with good intent, but I am not sure just how it will operate. According to the memorandum of understanding, the joint ministerial committee is to carry out various tasks. Its terms of reference are to consider various matters, to keep arrangements for liaison and to consider disputes. I am not quite sure about the committee's status. I am not sure whether it is consultative or executive; perhaps it is meant to be neither. The Executive has a duty to this Parliament to clarify how it regards the status and structure of that committee. It is important for us to know precisely how the committee is meant to operate.

There is a feeling—unworthy, perhaps—that the committee's status may deliberately have been made vague. It may be a deliberate fudge to deal with Governments of different colours in different parts of the United Kingdom. If the Conservatives were in government in the United Kingdom and in Scotland, those fears would be groundless. However, if there are to be different Administrations in different parts of the United Kingdom, there may be difficulties in the way in which the joint ministerial committee functions.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C709432", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 167.0, "ContributionID": 709432, "EditedText": "Will Annabel recommend to her colleagues that, if they ever again form the Administration in London, they rewrite the concordats to ensure that we have that proper and fair representation the lack of which she is criticising?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Annabel recommend to her colleagues that, if they ever again form the Administration in London, they rewrite the concordats to ensure that we have that proper and fair representation the lack of which she is criticising?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2029E47P167C709434", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Henry, Hugh", "ID": 2029, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Hugh Henry", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Hugh Henry: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 171.0, "ContributionID": 709434, "EditedText": "It is the excitement.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is the excitement.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1821E295P538C709440", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Mrs Margaret", "ID": 1821, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Moray" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Margaret Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 184.0, "ContributionID": 709440, "EditedText": "Will Mr Lyon give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr Lyon give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C709441", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 186.0, "ContributionID": 709441, "EditedText": "I have already given way once and I have only four minutes in which to make my speech. The question remains as to whether we still need 130 civil servants to deliver the secretary of state's role of promoting good relations between the Administrations, and members on all sides of the chamber are concerned about that. Representation in Europe is important for some of our primary industries, such as agriculture and fishing. The key priority is not who sits at the ministerial table; rather, it concerns input into the formulation of UK policy, and the document provides a clearly defined framework for Scottish ministers to play a role in that process.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have already given way once and I have only four minutes in which to make my speech.

The question remains as to whether we still need 130 civil servants to deliver the secretary of state's role of promoting good relations between the Administrations, and members on all sides of the chamber are concerned about that.

Representation in Europe is important for some of our primary industries, such as agriculture and fishing. The key priority is not who sits at the ministerial table; rather, it concerns input into the formulation of UK policy, and the document provides a clearly defined framework for Scottish ministers to play a role in that process.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C709443", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 190.0, "ContributionID": 709443, "EditedText": "I have only four minutes, but I will accept one intervention.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have only four minutes, but I will accept one intervention.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C709444", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bruce Crawford: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 192.0, "ContributionID": 709444, "EditedText": "How many times have Scottish ministers taken the lead in meetings of the Council of Ministers after agreement with other Whitehall departments in areas of real substance?", "EditedTextHTML": "How many times have Scottish ministers taken the lead in meetings of the Council of Ministers after agreement with other Whitehall departments in areas of real substance?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1821E295P538C709453", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Mrs Margaret", "ID": 1821, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Moray" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Margaret Ewing rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 211.0, "ContributionID": 709453, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C709455", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Goldie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 215.0, "ContributionID": 709455, "EditedText": "Mr McNulty is quite right in saying that we now have the concordats and are having a debate about them. That is what Mr Dewar said in his speech, but I still have some concerns. What does Mr McNulty suggest should be done if members were to say that we disagree with most of the content of all the concordats? The concordats are printed, published and agreed. Despite the terms of the motion that is before Parliament today, a vote in favour of the concordats would be very much a cosmetic endorsement.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr McNulty is quite right in saying that we now have the concordats and are having a debate about them. That is what Mr Dewar said in his speech, but I still have some concerns. What does Mr McNulty suggest should be done if members were to say that we disagree with most of the content of all the concordats? The concordats are printed, published and agreed. Despite the terms of the motion that is before Parliament today, a vote in favour of the concordats would be very much a cosmetic endorsement.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1970E66P288C709456", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNulty, Des", "ID": 1970, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Clydebank and Milngavie" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Des McNulty", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Des McNulty: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 217.0, "ContributionID": 709456, "EditedText": "If there are substantive areas of disagreement, let us identify them. It is my view that, if there were any such problems, we could have an on-going debate about them. However, I understand the concordats to be a mechanism through which issues can be discussed and resolved at an administrative level, so that policy can be progressed effectively in a transparent way that allows people to understand what is going on and what the rights and responsibilities of different agents will be.", "EditedTextHTML": "If there are substantive areas of disagreement, let us identify them. It is my view that, if there were any such problems, we could have an on-going debate about them. However, I understand the concordats to be a mechanism through which issues can be discussed and resolved at an administrative level, so that policy can be progressed effectively in a transparent way that allows people to understand what is going on and what the rights and responsibilities of different agents will be.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1970E66P288C709460", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNulty, Des", "ID": 1970, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Clydebank and Milngavie" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Des McNulty", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Des McNulty: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 225.0, "ContributionID": 709460, "EditedText": "The concordats establish a terrain or format on the basis of which different kinds of issues will be handled, whether the co-ordination of European Union policy, investment in industry or other subjects that form the basis of future concordats. They establish the basis on which the four arms of Government within the UK will co-operate. The document sets out a fundamental set of operating procedures through which Scottish and UK Governments will carry out their business. Issues of policy, if appropriate, will come here, to a committee or to the chamber. The Executive is accountable to the Parliament for how policy matters are handled—that is a clear principle. There is no subterfuge here. It is a clear process whereby issues will be dealt with by the Administration; it will enhance transparency and make clear who has responsibility for what and how the decisions are made. It is open to us to discuss any relevant policy issues in the Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "The concordats establish a terrain or format on the basis of which different kinds of issues will be handled, whether the co-ordination of European Union policy, investment in industry or other subjects that form the basis of future concordats. They establish the basis on which the four arms of Government within the UK will co-operate.

The document sets out a fundamental set of operating procedures through which Scottish and UK Governments will carry out their business. Issues of policy, if appropriate, will come here, to a committee or to the chamber. The Executive is accountable to the Parliament for how policy matters are handled—that is a clear principle. There is no subterfuge here. It is a clear process whereby issues will be dealt with by the Administration; it will enhance transparency and make clear who has responsibility for what and how the decisions are made. It is open to us to discuss any relevant policy issues in the Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1821E295P538C709461", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Mrs Margaret", "ID": 1821, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Moray" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Margaret Ewing (Moray) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 228.0, "ContributionID": 709461, "EditedText": "I have four minutes to cover 40 pages, when I could spend 40 minutes on each page of the memorandum. Des McNulty clearly has not read or understood the implications of many aspects of it. I address my remarks to all MSPs because it raises issues of democracy and of the responsibilities placed on us by our electorate. When I first read the document, I was incandescent with rage. That is a favourite word of Tony Blair's—he is always incandescent about something or other. If anyone suffers from insomnia, they should take the Maastricht treaty or the Schengen agreement to read in bed and they will go to sleep, but do not take this document. Anyone who cares about the development of democracy in this Parliament and the nation of Scotland should read every single word of the memorandum of understanding. I went back to the dictionary: concordat is supposed to mean a pact or an agreement reached in harmony. Like Alex Neil, I cannot see harmony anywhere in the document. Look at paragraph 13 on page 3. It should not have come as a surprise to me, having sat through many hours discussing the Scotland Act 1998, but it says: \"The United Kingdom Parliament retains authority to legislate on any issue, whether devolved or not.\" That is a critical sentence. I say to every member of this Parliament: tak tent of that phrase.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have four minutes to cover 40 pages, when I could spend 40 minutes on each page of the memorandum. Des McNulty clearly has not read or understood the implications of many aspects of it. I address my remarks to all MSPs because it raises issues of democracy and of the responsibilities placed on us by our electorate.

When I first read the document, I was incandescent with rage. That is a favourite word of Tony Blair's—he is always incandescent about something or other. If anyone suffers from insomnia, they should take the Maastricht treaty or the Schengen agreement to read in bed and they will go to sleep, but do not take this document. Anyone who cares about the development of democracy in this Parliament and the nation of Scotland should read every single word of the memorandum of understanding.

I went back to the dictionary: concordat is supposed to mean a pact or an agreement reached in harmony. Like Alex Neil, I cannot see harmony anywhere in the document. Look at paragraph 13 on page 3. It should not have come as a surprise to me, having sat through many hours discussing the Scotland Act 1998, but it says:

\"The United Kingdom Parliament retains authority to legislate on any issue, whether devolved or not.\"

That is a critical sentence. I say to every member of this Parliament: tak tent of that phrase.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C709462", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 230.0, "ContributionID": 709462, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C709463", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 232.0, "ContributionID": 709463, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1821E295P538C709466", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Mrs Margaret", "ID": 1821, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Moray" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 238.0, "ContributionID": 709466, "EditedText": "They all get up together—come on. Why did all of us—at least SNP members—go out and campaign for a yes result in the referendum? MEMBERS: \"Give way.\" We campaigned to be elected to this Parliament—are we going to be ciphers while another organisation holds the chains?", "EditedTextHTML": "They all get up together—come on. Why did all of us—at least SNP members—go out and campaign for a yes result in the referendum? [MEMBERS: \"Give way.\"] We campaigned to be elected to this Parliament—are we going to be ciphers while another organisation holds the chains?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C709470", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bruce Crawford: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 247.0, "ContributionID": 709470, "EditedText": "Will the member provide us with a definition of \"normally\"?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member provide us with a definition of \"normally\"?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C709474", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Murray Tosh (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 256.0, "ContributionID": 709474, "EditedText": "I agree with two points that Alex Neil made. I also feel, as does the Conservative party, that the way in which the concordats were launched was a discourtesy to this Parliament. It was not appropriate to launch those documents at a press conference, especially when that occurred in the context of a number of important announcements having been made to the media rather than to the Parliament during the past couple of months. The Parliament must examine that. A second concern has bubbled up during the debate, about how the operation of the concordats will be scrutinised in future. The First Minister said that the availability of the concordats is an innovation because documents of that nature have never been in the public domain before. He also said that the level of scrutiny—which in the past would have meant the relevant House of Commons committee scrutinising such work—has not existed before because we are in a wholly new context. That is the point: we are in a wholly new context. The concordats are different from the concordats and agreements between UK ministries: they are concordats between two Executives. How the concordats operate, and how they are seen to operate, is important. With regard to how the concordats will work, much more needs to be thought about, debated and concluded. I appreciate the spirit of the First Minister's answer, that essentially the committees of this Parliament will be able to scrutinise aspects of the working of the concordats, but I restate my concern that there might not be a procedure that is sufficient for a review of the working of the concordats, and those which are yet to come, in their totality. The remit appears to go beyond that of a single committee, or even a series of disaggregated committees. We will have to address some important procedural points. Having agreed with the Opposition case on those points, I distance myself and the Scottish Conservatives from much that has been said this morning, because it is clear that a huge miasma of misunderstanding, or misrepresentation, has surrounded the debate. For example, George Lyon, who is no longer here, assured us that these were concordats between Parliaments, when manifestly they are not: they are concordats between Executives. The role of Parliament in that process is how it scrutinises what is, effectively, an Executive relationship. I am afraid that George Lyon did not enhance his ministerial prospects with his offering. Alex Neil was guilty of much the same mistake. The specific instances that he gave of where the relationship had broken down, and could break down in future, appeared all to relate to legislative, and not Executive, areas. For example, the order relating to fishing boundaries was dealt with in Westminster by a committee and by members of Parliament in a vote; it was not an Executive action. The reform of the housing benefit regime in the coming year or so will be a matter for legislation. It is an important political issue, and Alex made some telling points about it with regard to the difference between Scotland and the rest of the UK, but any action will not be Executive action, so it will not be covered by the concordats: it will be covered by debate in both Parliaments. In addition, Alex Neil was wrong on the issue of the Cubie committee, as that matter relates to a legislative rather than Executive area.", "EditedTextHTML": "I agree with two points that Alex Neil made. I also feel, as does the Conservative party, that the way in which the concordats were launched was a discourtesy to this Parliament. It was not appropriate to launch those documents at a press conference, especially when that occurred in the context of a number of important announcements having been made to the media rather than to the Parliament during the past couple of months. The Parliament must examine that.

A second concern has bubbled up during the debate, about how the operation of the concordats will be scrutinised in future. The First Minister said that the availability of the concordats is an innovation because documents of that nature have never been in the public domain before. He also said that the level of scrutiny—which in the past would have meant the relevant House of Commons committee scrutinising such work—has not existed before because we are in a wholly new context. That is the point: we are in a wholly new context. The concordats are different from the concordats and agreements between UK ministries: they are concordats between two Executives. How the concordats operate, and how they are seen to operate, is important. With regard to how the concordats will work, much more needs to be thought about, debated and concluded.

I appreciate the spirit of the First Minister's answer, that essentially the committees of this Parliament will be able to scrutinise aspects of the working of the concordats, but I restate my concern that there might not be a procedure that is sufficient for a review of the working of the concordats, and those which are yet to come, in their totality. The remit appears to go beyond that of a single committee, or even a series of disaggregated committees. We will have to address some important procedural points.

Having agreed with the Opposition case on those points, I distance myself and the Scottish Conservatives from much that has been said this morning, because it is clear that a huge miasma of misunderstanding, or misrepresentation, has surrounded the debate. For example, George Lyon, who is no longer here, assured us that these were concordats between Parliaments, when manifestly they are not: they are concordats between Executives. The role of Parliament in that process is how it scrutinises what is, effectively, an Executive relationship. I am afraid that George Lyon did not enhance his ministerial prospects with his offering.

Alex Neil was guilty of much the same mistake. The specific instances that he gave of where the relationship had broken down, and could break down in future, appeared all to relate to legislative,

and not Executive, areas. For example, the order relating to fishing boundaries was dealt with in Westminster by a committee and by members of Parliament in a vote; it was not an Executive action. The reform of the housing benefit regime in the coming year or so will be a matter for legislation. It is an important political issue, and Alex made some telling points about it with regard to the difference between Scotland and the rest of the UK, but any action will not be Executive action, so it will not be covered by the concordats: it will be covered by debate in both Parliaments.

In addition, Alex Neil was wrong on the issue of the Cubie committee, as that matter relates to a legislative rather than Executive area.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C709476", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 260.0, "ContributionID": 709476, "EditedText": "Yes, but the concordats are not designed to govern how legislation is handled in either Parliament, or between the two. The concordats exist to handle Executive business, much of which is routine and mundane. The specific examples that Alex Neil gave are all first- rate political issues that are debated in Parliaments. Executives may propose legislation, but Parliaments pass it. It will be the role of this Parliament to take the decisions that he alluded to in concert with the Westminster Parliament, and there might be scope for some form of parliamentary concordat, but it is unlikely that we will be looking to agree on the details of legislation. A huge amount of emotive rubbish has poured from the SNP this morning. For example, Margaret Ewing clearly did not understand what she supported when she supported the devolution setup. When she campaigned around the country with as much emotion and passion as she showed this morning, she was campaigning for an act that had in it a clear statement that the UK legislature retained overall responsibility. How could it be different within a devolved context? I quite understand that the nationalists come from a different direction when they talk about independence, but they campaigned for devolution and that is the logic of devolution. I regard it as an absurd expectation that at some future date the Westminster Government will start legislating willy-nilly over the Scottish Parliament in every aspect of our affairs. That is a ludicrous spectacle to hold out before the people of Scotland. It is scaremongering. It points to the fundamental reason why the Conservative party was so suspicious of the principle of devolution, which is that we have always seen this as an area that opened up an avenue to the Scottish nationalists to divide, disrupt, misrepresent and scaremonger in the way that they have done this morning. We have accepted the democratic decision of the people of this country. We support devolution and we are committed to making it work. It has been made clear this morning that the SNP does not have that commitment and that it remains the wrecker still.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes, but the concordats are not designed to govern how legislation is handled in either Parliament, or between the two. The concordats exist to handle Executive business, much of which is routine and mundane. The specific examples that Alex Neil gave are all first- rate political issues that are debated in Parliaments. Executives may propose legislation, but Parliaments pass it. It will be the role of this Parliament to take the decisions that he alluded to in concert with the Westminster Parliament, and there might be scope for some form of parliamentary concordat, but it is unlikely that we will be looking to agree on the details of legislation.

A huge amount of emotive rubbish has poured from the SNP this morning. For example, Margaret Ewing clearly did not understand what she supported when she supported the devolution setup. When she campaigned around the country with as much emotion and passion as she showed this morning, she was campaigning for an act that had in it a clear statement that the UK legislature retained overall responsibility. How could it be different within a devolved context? I quite understand that the nationalists come from a different direction when they talk about independence, but they campaigned for devolution and that is the logic of devolution.

I regard it as an absurd expectation that at some future date the Westminster Government will start legislating willy-nilly over the Scottish Parliament in every aspect of our affairs. That is a ludicrous spectacle to hold out before the people of Scotland. It is scaremongering. It points to the fundamental reason why the Conservative party was so suspicious of the principle of devolution, which is that we have always seen this as an area that opened up an avenue to the Scottish nationalists to divide, disrupt, misrepresent and scaremonger in the way that they have done this morning. We have accepted the democratic decision of the people of this country. We support devolution and we are committed to making it work. It has been made clear this morning that the SNP does not have that commitment and that it remains the wrecker still.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C709478", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 265.0, "ContributionID": 709478, "EditedText": "Is it not clear that this Parliament has the competence to discuss non-devolved matters, including defence and the other areas that Bruce Crawford mentioned? He can hardly be suggesting, in the context of a devolved settlement, that this Parliament will legislate in such areas.", "EditedTextHTML": "Is it not clear that this Parliament has the competence to discuss non-devolved matters, including defence and the other areas that Bruce Crawford mentioned? He can hardly be suggesting, in the context of a devolved settlement, that this Parliament will legislate in such areas.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C709480", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Jim Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 269.0, "ContributionID": 709480, "EditedText": "I refer Mr Crawford to paragraph 15 of the memorandum of understanding, which states: \"The devolved legislatures will be entitled to debate non- devolved matters, but the devolved executives will encourage each devolved legislature to bear in mind the responsibility of the UK Parliament in these matters.\" The document, which Mr Crawford claims to have read, states that this Parliament can debate non- devolved matters.", "EditedTextHTML": "I refer Mr Crawford to paragraph 15 of the memorandum of understanding, which states:

\"The devolved legislatures will be entitled to debate non- devolved matters, but the devolved executives will encourage each devolved legislature to bear in mind the responsibility of the UK Parliament in these matters.\"

The document, which Mr Crawford claims to have read, states that this Parliament can debate non- devolved matters.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C709481", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bruce Crawford: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 271.0, "ContributionID": 709481, "EditedText": "Can the Executive give me an assurance that on the joint ministerial committee, Scottish ministers will raise issues on defence, foreign affairs and aid to third-world countries in any discussions that touch on those matters and press hard on Scotland's behalf?", "EditedTextHTML": "Can the Executive give me an assurance that on the joint ministerial committee, Scottish ministers will raise issues on defence, foreign affairs and aid to third-world countries in any discussions that touch on those matters and press hard on Scotland's behalf?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2090E83P266C709484", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAllion, Mr John", "ID": 2090, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dundee East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John McAllion", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr John McAllion (Dundee East) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 278.0, "ContributionID": 709484, "EditedText": "Mr Crawford reminded me of that wonderful phrase from the \"Carry On\" films: infamy, infamy, they have all got it in for me. That is the spirit in which we should take the debate so far. There has been a great deal of exaggeration, especially from the SNP. I was genuinely surprised by the flourish with which Alex Neil brought his speech to an end. Let the word go forth from this Mound that if the SNP wins the next general election and forms the Government of Scotland, it will renegotiate the devolution contracts. Not set Scotland free, not declare independence, but renegotiate the devolution concordats. It appears that the war over the national question, which has divided Scotland for most of the 20th century, is over and that home rule has won. I welcome the SNP back to the home rule movement, which it left more than 60 years ago.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Crawford reminded me of that wonderful phrase from the \"Carry On\" films: infamy, infamy, they have all got it in for me. That is the spirit in which we should take the debate so far. There has been a great deal of exaggeration, especially from the SNP.

I was genuinely surprised by the flourish with which Alex Neil brought his speech to an end. Let the word go forth from this Mound that if the SNP wins the next general election and forms the Government of Scotland, it will renegotiate the devolution contracts. Not set Scotland free, not declare independence, but renegotiate the devolution concordats.

It appears that the war over the national question, which has divided Scotland for most of the 20th century, is over and that home rule has won. I welcome the SNP back to the home rule movement, which it left more than 60 years ago.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1865E219P509C709489", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "White, Sandra", "ID": 1865, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sandra White", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms White: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 288.0, "ContributionID": 709489, "EditedText": "Will Mr McAllion give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr McAllion give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C709491", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 292.0, "ContributionID": 709491, "EditedText": "Wind up, please.", "EditedTextHTML": "Wind up, please.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2090E83P266C709494", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAllion, Mr John", "ID": 2090, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dundee East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John McAllion", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McAllion: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 298.0, "ContributionID": 709494, "EditedText": "We know that, and SNP members know it too, in their hearts. It is time that they were honest and told the Scottish people what they mean. They want to be shackled inside the European Union—a different union, but essentially the same kind of union as we are in the UK. We should stop discussing arguments that do not exist between the parties and get down to making devolution work, which is for the good of everybody.", "EditedTextHTML": "We know that, and SNP members know it too, in their hearts. It is time that they were honest and told the Scottish people what they mean. They want to be shackled inside the European Union—a different union, but essentially the same kind of union as we are in the UK. We should stop discussing arguments that do not exist between the parties and get down to making devolution work, which is for the good of everybody.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1828E200P487C709495", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacDonald, Margo", "ID": 1828, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margo MacDonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Margo MacDonald (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 301.0, "ContributionID": 709495, "EditedText": "I will take Mr McAllion's advice and keep cool. I want to address the part of the memorandum of understanding that covers international and EU relations. The First Minister should not get too worried, as I will not make independence the sole template for judging the memorandum. However, I will take advice from Des McNulty and take note of the fact that underlying the memorandum and the concordats is a fundamental set of principles. I hope, therefore, that I will be excused for addressing some of those principles. I refer first to the vision of the consultative steering group, set out in its report, \"Shaping Scotland's Parliament\". It states that the Parliament \"should adopt procedures and practices that people will understand, that will engage their interest, and that will encourage them to obtain information and to exchange views.\" I refer also to what appeared to be the First Minister's vision for this Parliament: that it should \"find just the right solutions to Scotland's problems\".I had hoped that we would set our sights a little higher than that. The CSG report goes on to record the cynicism about and disillusionment with the democratic process—with which all of us are becoming increasingly familiar. It urges that this Parliament \"should set itself the highest standards\"and states that its intention is\"to achieve a Parliament whose elected Members the Scottish people will trust and respect, and a Parliament with which they will want to engage.\" Let us consider the matters on which people want to engage with the Parliament. They do not place artificial boundaries on how their humanity should be practised and expressed by this Parliament, or on how their international responsibilities should be enacted. The objectives of the CSG report are laudable, although I might quibble a wee bit with the narrow nationalism of the implication that this Parliament should seek the trust and respect only of the Scottish people. I want us to have the trust and respect of people outwith Scotland as well. However, it was still quite a good start. We cannot meet the report's objectives if we adopt the spirit and letter of these concordats. They place an artificial barrier on the views that are expressed and exchanged by Scots outside and through the Parliament about our relationship with the citizens of the EU and our wider citizenship of the world. We have a stake in those issues, and we should not be able only to talk about them—we should be able to act on our conclusions. In the section dealing with how Scotland will engage with people and their Governments outwith Scotland, it is made perfectly clear that Scots will be able to lobby, as we can at present, but unable to act, even on matters that have direct, day-to-day relevance to affairs in Scotland. At the next EU intergovernmental conference, for example, which is due to be held in a couple of years' time, the treaties will be reviewed. Further political integration and the expansion of EU membership will be on the table. Under the terms of the memorandum, this Parliament will be able to discuss with Euskadi—the Basque country— Bavaria and Wallonia what we think about those matters that impact directly on Scotland, such as structural funds, fishing policy and employment policy. However, when it comes to acting on the thoughts and priorities that we may evolve, either ourselves or with other Governments, we will have to lobby Westminster as usual, albeit through the joint ministerial committee. We will just have to hope that Westminster's thoughts and priorities are in tune with ours. That is not a situation calculated to re-engage the interest and energy of Scots in the democratic process. The principles underlying this document, as outlined by Des McNulty, have been undermined. I will provide another, more sharply focused, instance of how the constraints of the document militate against engaging Scots with their Parliament. I believe that Pinochet came to Scotland once. Let us imagine that another Pinochet were to come here and the Spanish Government said that it would like him to be extradited. If the Westminster Parliament did not want to comply with that request—which is not unheard of—would the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs allow the Lord Advocate, within his internationally recognised jurisdiction, to carry through the express policy of this Parliament and, perhaps, the Executive, if it were of a difficult political persuasion from the Government in London? We all know that that would not be possible. I want to mention an important marker of how we will exercise our humanity, our priorities as the Scottish nation and our supposed new democracy as the world enters the 21st century. Will we be able to act on decisions of the Labour party conference, the Scottish National party conference, the general assembly of the Church of Scotland, the conference of bishops of the Catholic Church, the Scottish Green party and the Scottish Socialist party—and on, I think, a majority of Liberal Democrat decisions—and say no to Trident? We will be able to say it, but will we be able to do it? These concordats hold us firm inside what Westminster believes to be the United Kingdom position. If the Scottish position is obviously different, we can do nothing about that. If the First Minister will permit me, that is the answer to the taunt—repeated by Murray Tosh—that my colleague Margaret Ewing voted for the Scotland Act 1998. Even if she had said no, we would have been stuck with it. That is the situation that this Parliament was meant to remedy. That is what was claimed throughout the referendum campaign. This memorandum serves Scotland and her Parliament ill. It means that we cannot be all that we should be and cannot do everything that we should do. We cannot accept the responsibilities of nationhood, which we claim. In short, like this Parliament, it will not do.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will take Mr McAllion's advice and keep cool.

I want to address the part of the memorandum of understanding that covers international and EU relations. The First Minister should not get too worried, as I will not make independence the sole template for judging the memorandum. However, I will take advice from Des McNulty and take note of the fact that underlying the memorandum and the concordats is a fundamental set of principles. I hope, therefore, that I will be excused for addressing some of those principles.

I refer first to the vision of the consultative steering group, set out in its report, \"Shaping Scotland's Parliament\". It states that the Parliament

\"should adopt procedures and practices that people will understand, that will engage their interest, and that will encourage them to obtain information and to exchange views.\"

I refer also to what appeared to be the First Minister's vision for this Parliament: that it should

\"find just the right solutions to Scotland's problems\".

I had hoped that we would set our sights a little higher than that.

The CSG report goes on to record the cynicism about and disillusionment with the democratic process—with which all of us are becoming increasingly familiar. It urges that this Parliament

\"should set itself the highest standards\"

and states that its intention is

\"to achieve a Parliament whose elected Members the Scottish people will trust and respect, and a Parliament with which they will want to engage.\"

Let us consider the matters on which people want to engage with the Parliament. They do not place artificial boundaries on how their humanity should be practised and expressed by this Parliament, or on how their international responsibilities should be enacted.

The objectives of the CSG report are laudable, although I might quibble a wee bit with the narrow nationalism of the implication that this Parliament should seek the trust and respect only of the Scottish people. I want us to have the trust and respect of people outwith Scotland as well. However, it was still quite a good start.

We cannot meet the report's objectives if we adopt the spirit and letter of these concordats. They place an artificial barrier on the views that are expressed and exchanged by Scots outside and through the Parliament about our relationship with the citizens of the EU and our wider citizenship of the world. We have a stake in those issues, and we should not be able only to talk about them—we should be able to act on our conclusions.

In the section dealing with how Scotland will engage with people and their Governments outwith Scotland, it is made perfectly clear that Scots will be able to lobby, as we can at present, but unable to act, even on matters that have direct, day-to-day relevance to affairs in Scotland.

At the next EU intergovernmental conference, for example, which is due to be held in a couple of years' time, the treaties will be reviewed. Further political integration and the expansion of EU membership will be on the table. Under the terms of the memorandum, this Parliament will be able to discuss with Euskadi—the Basque country— Bavaria and Wallonia what we think about those matters that impact directly on Scotland, such as structural funds, fishing policy and employment policy.

However, when it comes to acting on the thoughts and priorities that we may evolve, either ourselves or with other Governments, we will have to lobby Westminster as usual, albeit through the joint ministerial committee. We will just have to hope that Westminster's thoughts and priorities are in tune with ours. That is not a situation calculated to re-engage the interest and energy of Scots in the democratic process. The principles underlying this document, as outlined by Des McNulty, have been undermined.

I will provide another, more sharply focused, instance of how the constraints of the document militate against engaging Scots with their Parliament. I believe that Pinochet came to Scotland once. Let us imagine that another Pinochet were to come here and the Spanish Government said that it would like him to be extradited. If the Westminster Parliament did not want to comply with that request—which is not unheard of—would the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs allow the Lord Advocate, within his internationally recognised jurisdiction, to carry through the express policy of this Parliament and, perhaps, the Executive, if it were of a difficult political persuasion from the Government in London? We all know that that would not be possible.

I want to mention an important marker of how we will exercise our humanity, our priorities as the Scottish nation and our supposed new democracy as the world enters the 21st century. Will we be able to act on decisions of the Labour party conference, the Scottish National party conference, the general assembly of the Church of Scotland, the conference of bishops of the Catholic Church, the Scottish Green party and the Scottish Socialist party—and on, I think, a majority of Liberal Democrat decisions—and say no to Trident? We will be able to say it, but will we be able to do it?

These concordats hold us firm inside what Westminster believes to be the United Kingdom position. If the Scottish position is obviously different, we can do nothing about that. If the First Minister will permit me, that is the answer to the taunt—repeated by Murray Tosh—that my colleague Margaret Ewing voted for the Scotland Act 1998. Even if she had said no, we would have been stuck with it. That is the situation that this Parliament was meant to remedy. That is what was claimed throughout the referendum campaign.

This memorandum serves Scotland and her Parliament ill. It means that we cannot be all that we should be and cannot do everything that we should do. We cannot accept the responsibilities of nationhood, which we claim. In short, like this Parliament, it will not do.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2029E47P167C709496", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Henry, Hugh", "ID": 2029, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Hugh Henry", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Hugh Henry (Paisley South) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 304.0, "ContributionID": 709496, "EditedText": "Murray Tosh and John McAllion were quite right to try to bring this debate back to what is before us this morning. It is unfortunate that the SNP has missed an opportunity to discuss and debate what is in the concordats. Instead, SNP members have tried to take the debate on to its wish list for independence. Murray Tosh was right to remind Margaret Ewing of the bizarre situation in which she finds herself—fulminating at great length about some of the comments in the document, even though she campaigned for the Scotland Act 1998 and for this Parliament. If she did not like the devolution proposals, it would have been more honourable to reject them at the time, instead of coming back now and using the concordats as a pretext for her opposition.", "EditedTextHTML": "Murray Tosh and John McAllion were quite right to try to bring this debate back to what is before us this morning. It is unfortunate that the SNP has missed an opportunity to discuss and debate what is in the concordats. Instead, SNP members have tried to take the debate on to its wish list for independence.

Murray Tosh was right to remind Margaret Ewing of the bizarre situation in which she finds herself—fulminating at great length about some of the comments in the document, even though she campaigned for the Scotland Act 1998 and for this Parliament. If she did not like the devolution proposals, it would have been more honourable to reject them at the time, instead of coming back now and using the concordats as a pretext for her opposition.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5920734+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2029E47P167C709501", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Henry, Hugh", "ID": 2029, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Hugh Henry", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Hugh Henry: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 314.0, "ContributionID": 709501, "EditedText": "I will give way to Dorothy-Grace Elder.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will give way to Dorothy-Grace Elder.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1821E295P538C709509", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Mrs Margaret", "ID": 1821, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Moray" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Ewing rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 330.0, "ContributionID": 709509, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2029E47P167C709512", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Henry, Hugh", "ID": 2029, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Hugh Henry", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Hugh Henry: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 336.0, "ContributionID": 709512, "EditedText": "I find Sandra White's comments bizarre. All morning, the point has been made to members of the SNP that the Scottish people rejected independence and indicated that they wanted to remain part of the UK. We have an Executive that is charged with taking forward government and, whether Sandra likes it or not, we are part of the United Kingdom and we have a United Kingdom Government. This is an agreement between the United Kingdom Government and the devolved Administrations. In a sense, we have something that the English do not have: we have the United Kingdom Government negotiating with the devolved Administrations. That is an advantage that we have over our compatriots in England.", "EditedTextHTML": "I find Sandra White's comments bizarre. All morning, the point has been made to members of the SNP that the Scottish people rejected independence and indicated that they wanted to remain part of the UK.

We have an Executive that is charged with taking forward government and, whether Sandra likes it or not, we are part of the United Kingdom and we have a United Kingdom Government. This is an agreement between the United Kingdom Government and the devolved Administrations.

In a sense, we have something that the English do not have: we have the United Kingdom Government negotiating with the devolved Administrations. That is an advantage that we have over our compatriots in England.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1751E163P286C709526", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Craigie, Cathie", "ID": 1751, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Cumbernauld and Kilsyth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Cathie Craigie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Cathie Craigie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 366.0, "ContributionID": 709526, "EditedText": "No, I will not—I am about to finish. The new Labour Government and Donald Dewar, through the Scotland Act and the devolution settlement, have extended the democratic process to the people of Scotland. One of the beneficiaries has been the Scottish National party.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I will not—I am about to finish.

The new Labour Government and Donald Dewar, through the Scotland Act and the devolution settlement, have extended the democratic process to the people of Scotland. One of the beneficiaries has been the Scottish National party.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C709531", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 378.0, "ContributionID": 709531, "EditedText": "Please wind up.", "EditedTextHTML": "Please wind up.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1882E175P456C709527", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ingram, Adam", "ID": 1882, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Adam Ingram", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Adam Ingram (South of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 369.0, "ContributionID": 709527, "EditedText": "I will focus my remarks on the concordat on financial assistance to industry, and on inward investment in particular. Members will be aware that Scotland continues to attract a higher share of inward investment than would be expected for its relative share of UK gross domestic product. During the 1990s, the Scottish share of foreign inward investment projects coming into the UK has typically averaged between 15 and 20 per cent of the national total. There is little doubt that overseas multinationals have played a considerable role in modernising our industrial structure, most notably establishing and sustaining the major electronics sector. Together, overseas-owned manufacturing companies directly employ some 80,000 people in Scotland. Scotland owes its success not only to the fact that it was the first part of the UK to plan to attract inward investment in a systematic way, but to the excellent performance of Locate in Scotland over the past two decades. It is vital that that agency is allowed to continue its work in an unfettered way, operating as it does in a fiercely competitive marketplace. Scotland needs to work hard to stand still. Scotland's relative success with inward investment has been a constant source of irritation in Whitehall. There have been repeated attempts to clip Scottish wings and to submerge Locate in Scotland in the Department of Trade and Industry's Invest in Britain Bureau. Back in 1996, it was Michael Heseltine who had to be beaten off, but not before he had intervened to redirect a £450 million project by Samsung from Scotland to the north of England. The advent of new Labour reinvigorated the bureaucratic, centralist tendency—or was it mere empire building? Margaret Beckett launched a fierce bid to bring Locate in Scotland under control. Not only did Mrs Beckett want to establish a concordat to that effect, she even demanded a veto on regional selective assistance packages and the reduction of Scotland's grant allocation to a per capita basis. While that was going on, Donald Dewar's devolution white paper was being published. It stated: \"Devolved matters over which the Scottish Parliament will have legislative power include . . . inward investment including the functions of Locate in Scotland\". No wonder Jim Wallace, in The Scotsman on 5 November 1997, was moved to attack the DTI's threats in the following terms: \"At a time when every move should be directed towards the decentralisation of decision making, we seem to have a clear case of the centre wanting greater control. That is inconsistent with the Government's whole approach.\" That was a principled position to take, but I suspect that today we will witness—and not for the first time—the leader of the Scottish Liberal Democrats having to eat his words in order to hold on to his newly found ministerial status. Let there be no mistake about this: the concordat hands over control of Scottish inward investment to London. The document states categorically that the UK Government will be responsible for promotion of the UK as a whole to foreign investors. When there is competition between two or more parts of the UK for large mobile investments, discussions will be held in an overseas promotion committee, consisting of four UK ministers and only one minister from each of the three devolved Administrations. Failing consensus, the final arbiter will be the Cabinet Office—a dead giveaway, if there ever was one, that Whitehall has won. We now face the ludicrous situation— complained about by Jim Wallace when in opposition—that Locate in Scotland will be facing more restrictions on its operation after devolution than it did before. For Scotland's economy, that will prove to be a real tragedy.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will focus my remarks on the concordat on financial assistance to industry, and on inward investment in particular.

Members will be aware that Scotland continues to attract a higher share of inward investment than

would be expected for its relative share of UK gross domestic product. During the 1990s, the Scottish share of foreign inward investment projects coming into the UK has typically averaged between 15 and 20 per cent of the national total. There is little doubt that overseas multinationals have played a considerable role in modernising our industrial structure, most notably establishing and sustaining the major electronics sector. Together, overseas-owned manufacturing companies directly employ some 80,000 people in Scotland.

Scotland owes its success not only to the fact that it was the first part of the UK to plan to attract inward investment in a systematic way, but to the excellent performance of Locate in Scotland over the past two decades. It is vital that that agency is allowed to continue its work in an unfettered way, operating as it does in a fiercely competitive marketplace. Scotland needs to work hard to stand still.

Scotland's relative success with inward investment has been a constant source of irritation in Whitehall. There have been repeated attempts to clip Scottish wings and to submerge Locate in Scotland in the Department of Trade and Industry's Invest in Britain Bureau. Back in 1996, it was Michael Heseltine who had to be beaten off, but not before he had intervened to redirect a £450 million project by Samsung from Scotland to the north of England.

The advent of new Labour reinvigorated the bureaucratic, centralist tendency—or was it mere empire building? Margaret Beckett launched a fierce bid to bring Locate in Scotland under control. Not only did Mrs Beckett want to establish a concordat to that effect, she even demanded a veto on regional selective assistance packages and the reduction of Scotland's grant allocation to a per capita basis. While that was going on, Donald Dewar's devolution white paper was being published. It stated:

\"Devolved matters over which the Scottish Parliament will have legislative power include . . . inward investment including the functions of Locate in Scotland\".

No wonder Jim Wallace, in The Scotsman on 5 November 1997, was moved to attack the DTI's threats in the following terms:

\"At a time when every move should be directed towards the decentralisation of decision making, we seem to have a clear case of the centre wanting greater control. That is inconsistent with the Government's whole approach.\"

That was a principled position to take, but I suspect that today we will witness—and not for the first time—the leader of the Scottish Liberal Democrats having to eat his words in order to hold on to his newly found ministerial status.

Let there be no mistake about this: the concordat hands over control of Scottish inward investment to London. The document states categorically that the UK Government will be responsible for promotion of the UK as a whole to foreign investors. When there is competition between two or more parts of the UK for large mobile investments, discussions will be held in an overseas promotion committee, consisting of four UK ministers and only one minister from each of the three devolved Administrations. Failing consensus, the final arbiter will be the Cabinet Office—a dead giveaway, if there ever was one, that Whitehall has won.

We now face the ludicrous situation— complained about by Jim Wallace when in opposition—that Locate in Scotland will be facing more restrictions on its operation after devolution than it did before. For Scotland's economy, that will prove to be a real tragedy.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1882E175P456C709529", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ingram, Adam", "ID": 1882, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Adam Ingram", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Ingram: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 374.0, "ContributionID": 709529, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C709536", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 388.0, "ContributionID": 709536, "EditedText": "I will not give way. I have said that already. Can I finish? The crucial thing is that such negotiations are overseen so that we do not degenerate into a bidding war. That is in nobody's interest. It is not in the interests of Scotland, Northern Ireland, Wales or England, and it is certainly not in the taxpayers' interests.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will not give way. I have said that already. Can I finish?

The crucial thing is that such negotiations are overseen so that we do not degenerate into a bidding war. That is in nobody's interest. It is not in the interests of Scotland, Northern Ireland, Wales or England, and it is certainly not in the taxpayers' interests.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C709538", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 392.0, "ContributionID": 709538, "EditedText": "It is exactly right that the committee for overseas promotion should play a co-ordinating role. For inward investment as for other matters, the concordats represent a common-sense approach.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is exactly right that the committee for overseas promotion should play a co-ordinating role. For inward investment as for other matters, the concordats represent a common-sense approach.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2056E57P84C709541", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James", "ID": 2056, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "James Douglas-Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Lord James Douglas-Hamilton: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 399.0, "ContributionID": 709541, "EditedText": "It is my conviction that we won so many inward investment projects because Locate in Scotland was extremely good at its job and was very effective. There was a perception in the House of Commons that both Scotland and Wales had done extremely well. Frankly, there was an element of jealousy. It is important that Scotland retains its fair share of inward investment resources. In the interests of equity and fairness it is essential that the concordat should operate on a level playing field. It is vital that the ministerial group should make decisions in an open way that is accountable to Parliaments and Assemblies. It is regrettable that the statement was not made first to Parliament, as it could have been. It is important that significant developments be announced in this Parliament. We should not be marginalised by the Executive. It is legitimate for MSPs to ask questions at the time of announcements. For example, I understand that concordats between individual departments have still to be published and are still not accessible to members. In due course, we need to know their contents to establish whether the principal agreement will stand the test of time. A major issue that is raised by these concordats is that they could lead to legal action. On 12 May 1998, Mr Henry McLeish replied to Mr Jim Wallace—Mr Wallace was asking the questions then, and Mr McLeish was doing the answering— saying, \"it is likely that they will be justiciable to an extent. For example, if the Scottish Executive did not follow the consultation procedure set out in a concordat, it could be judicially challenged on the ground that it had created a legitimate expectation that the procedure would be followed.\"—Official Report, House of Commons, 12 May 1998; Vol 312, c 193. Similar words were uttered by the Solicitor General in the House of Lords. It appears that the expectation of being consulted can be treated as the equivalent of a legal right. If the Executive accepts that concordats will have legal implications in judicial proceedings, why are we not being given the opportunity to amend the details of the concordats? I ask the Deputy First Minister whether Parliament will be given that power in future. I understand that the Executive will have the power to make amendments. I will suggest just one very small amendment. I notice that the concordat on international relations does not even deal with aid. That is an unfortunate omission. Many aid-giving agencies have bases in Scotland. The Government has indicated that it intends to involve the devolved bodies. I hope that the minister will take this point on board. The concordats are designed for a situation in which the Scottish and British Administrations are of the same political inclination. On 1 July 1998, Mr Henry McLeish said to the Scottish Affairs Select Committee that he hoped that good will would prevail. I hope that, even though there may be a change of administration, as undoubtedly there will be over the next 30, 40 or 50 years, the procedures will take care of it. It should be noted that the time scale of 30, 40 or 50 years is very much shorter than that suggested by the Prime Minister, but some in the Parliament believe that a change may come well within 30 years. Whatever reservations we have about the document, Mr McLeish made it clear that the proposal is to enable a common-sense working dialogue to take place within a framework. We believe that that is reasonable. It seems, in Mr McLeish's words, \"that in the changing face of the constitution of the Government of the UK, Scotland will be involved in change. Let us have a working relationship that will be the basis for dialogue\". I will raise one matter that could lead to the concordats being substantially changed. It is the passage in the memorandum on European policy. On page 17, at B3.14, the memorandum says: \"The role of Ministers and officials from the devolved administrations will be to support and advance the single UK negotiating line which they will have played a part in developing.\" It may well be that Scottish fishermen off Peterhead will call for different solutions from those for which fishermen off Devon and Cornwall will call. It is not easy to see how that would be readily resolved. The suggestion that officials in the Scottish Administration would support the single UK negotiating line when the First Minister might be arguing for something very different could create a situation in which civil servants are faced with a conflict of loyalties. I believe that this document should give a much fuller role to Scotland's First Minister, who should be involved in all matters relating to devolved responsibilities.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is my conviction that we won so many inward investment projects because Locate in Scotland was extremely good at its job and was very effective. There was a perception in the House of Commons that both Scotland and Wales had done extremely well. Frankly, there was an element of jealousy. It is important that Scotland retains its fair share of inward investment resources. In the interests of equity and fairness it is essential that the concordat should operate on a level playing field. It is vital that the ministerial group should make decisions in an open way that is accountable to Parliaments and Assemblies.

It is regrettable that the statement was not made first to Parliament, as it could have been. It is important that significant developments be announced in this Parliament. We should not be marginalised by the Executive. It is legitimate for MSPs to ask questions at the time of announcements. For example, I understand that concordats between individual departments have still to be published and are still not accessible to members. In due course, we need to know their contents to establish whether the principal agreement will stand the test of time.

A major issue that is raised by these concordats is that they could lead to legal action. On 12 May 1998, Mr Henry McLeish replied to Mr Jim Wallace—Mr Wallace was asking the questions then, and Mr McLeish was doing the answering— saying,

\"it is likely that they will be justiciable to an extent. For example, if the Scottish Executive did not follow the consultation procedure set out in a concordat, it could be judicially challenged on the ground that it had created a

legitimate expectation that the procedure would be followed.\"—[Official Report, House of Commons, 12 May 1998; Vol 312, c 193.]

Similar words were uttered by the Solicitor General in the House of Lords.

It appears that the expectation of being consulted can be treated as the equivalent of a legal right. If the Executive accepts that concordats will have legal implications in judicial proceedings, why are we not being given the opportunity to amend the details of the concordats? I ask the Deputy First Minister whether Parliament will be given that power in future. I understand that the Executive will have the power to make amendments.

I will suggest just one very small amendment. I notice that the concordat on international relations does not even deal with aid. That is an unfortunate omission. Many aid-giving agencies have bases in Scotland. The Government has indicated that it intends to involve the devolved bodies. I hope that the minister will take this point on board.

The concordats are designed for a situation in which the Scottish and British Administrations are of the same political inclination. On 1 July 1998, Mr Henry McLeish said to the Scottish Affairs Select Committee that he hoped that good will would prevail. I hope that, even though there may be a change of administration, as undoubtedly there will be over the next 30, 40 or 50 years, the procedures will take care of it. It should be noted that the time scale of 30, 40 or 50 years is very much shorter than that suggested by the Prime Minister, but some in the Parliament believe that a change may come well within 30 years.

Whatever reservations we have about the document, Mr McLeish made it clear that the proposal is to enable a common-sense working dialogue to take place within a framework. We believe that that is reasonable. It seems, in Mr McLeish's words,

\"that in the changing face of the constitution of the Government of the UK, Scotland will be involved in change. Let us have a working relationship that will be the basis for dialogue\".

I will raise one matter that could lead to the concordats being substantially changed. It is the passage in the memorandum on European policy. On page 17, at B3.14, the memorandum says:

\"The role of Ministers and officials from the devolved administrations will be to support and advance the single UK negotiating line which they will have played a part in developing.\"

It may well be that Scottish fishermen off Peterhead will call for different solutions from those for which fishermen off Devon and Cornwall will call. It is not easy to see how that would be readily resolved. The suggestion that officials in the Scottish Administration would support the single UK negotiating line when the First Minister might be arguing for something very different could create a situation in which civil servants are faced with a conflict of loyalties. I believe that this document should give a much fuller role to Scotland's First Minister, who should be involved in all matters relating to devolved responsibilities.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2029E47P167C709547", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Henry, Hugh", "ID": 2029, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Hugh Henry", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Hugh Henry: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 412.0, "ContributionID": 709547, "EditedText": "Surely the product of ministerial deliberations is evident in the legislation and policies that are put before the Parliament. Our committees can scrutinise those deliberations in a way in which elements of the UK Administration cannot. I would argue that we are in advance of other parts of the United Kingdom.", "EditedTextHTML": "Surely the product of ministerial deliberations is evident in the legislation and policies that are put before the Parliament. Our committees can scrutinise those deliberations in a way in which elements of the UK Administration cannot. I would argue that we are in advance of other parts of the United Kingdom.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C709553", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 425.0, "ContributionID": 709553, "EditedText": "I hope that Miss Goldie will give me a chance to answer the question. The assertion has been made that there was no intimation to Parliament. That assertion is simply not true. I am sure that, as someone who reveres the Westminster Parliament, she will agree with the point that Mr Tosh made in an intervention, but I do not think that she is suggesting that we should have delayed all those announcements until Westminster reconvened. The agreements were tripartite. They involved not only this Executive but the Cabinets of the National Assembly for Wales and Westminster. The date was agreed between those parties and, as I said, the documents were available to MSPs last Friday.", "EditedTextHTML": "I hope that Miss Goldie will give me a chance to answer the question. The assertion has been made that there was no intimation to Parliament. That assertion is simply not true. I am sure that, as someone who reveres the Westminster Parliament, she will agree with the point that Mr Tosh made in an intervention, but I do not think that she is suggesting that we should have delayed all those announcements until Westminster reconvened. The agreements were tripartite. They involved not only this Executive but the Cabinets of the National Assembly for Wales and Westminster. The date was agreed between those parties and, as I said, the documents were available to MSPs last Friday.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C709552", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Goldie rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 423.0, "ContributionID": 709552, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C709558", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 435.0, "ContributionID": 709558, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1821E295P538C709562", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Mrs Margaret", "ID": 1821, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Moray" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 443.0, "ContributionID": 709562, "EditedText": "I was making an important point about the responsibility of this Parliament to develop democracy. How does Mr Wallace believe democracy can develop and this Parliament's powers can extend to improve the lives of our people unless he changes some of the concordats that we have debated this morning?", "EditedTextHTML": "I was making an important point about the responsibility of this Parliament to develop democracy. How does Mr Wallace believe democracy can develop and this Parliament's powers can extend to improve the lives of our people unless he changes some of the concordats that we have debated this morning?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C709565", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 449.0, "ContributionID": 709565, "EditedText": "There has been much misinformation about the joint ministerial committee being some overarching executive committee. It is not an executive committee; it is a consultative committee. Even the code of guidance for access to official information makes it perfectly clear that frank and candid discussions should not be seriously prejudiced by access. Such a stipulation applies to the Cabinet of the European Parliament as well as to the Scottish Executive. I honestly do not believe that the chamber thinks that it would be in the interests of Scotland for the joint ministerial committee to release details of, for example, discussions about the commercial considerations of an inward investment. It would also not be in our interests to make the public aware of our bottom-line position in negotiations with our European partners about issues such as fisheries or the common agricultural policy. On occasions, it is in the best interests of serving Scotland that such candid and frank discussions take place without access.", "EditedTextHTML": "There has been much misinformation about the joint ministerial committee being some overarching executive committee. It is not an executive committee; it is a consultative committee. Even the code of guidance for access to official information makes it perfectly clear that frank and candid discussions should not be seriously prejudiced by access.

Such a stipulation applies to the Cabinet of the European Parliament as well as to the Scottish Executive. I honestly do not believe that the chamber thinks that it would be in the interests of Scotland for the joint ministerial committee to release details of, for example, discussions about the commercial considerations of an inward investment. It would also not be in our interests to make the public aware of our bottom-line position in negotiations with our European partners about issues such as fisheries or the common agricultural policy. On occasions, it is in the best interests of serving Scotland that such candid and frank discussions take place without access.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C709567", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 453.0, "ContributionID": 709567, "EditedText": "I really ought to make progress as there is a business motion to follow. The Presiding Officer is nodding—I think that I might already be straying over time. A couple of members raised points about Scotland House. I can confirm to Mr Lyon that there will be a hot-desk facility at UKRep in Brussels and that Scotland House will be fully plugged into information flows that come through UKRep. At the same time, Scotland House will have the opportunity to provide a specifically Scottish focus for Scottish interests in Brussels. In that way, we get the best of both worlds. As Mr Lyon said, we will have 10 votes when we negotiate in the European Union, instead of the three that we would be left with if we were in the hands of the SNP. I well remember SNP MPs pleading with the previous Conservative Government to take effective action against the dumping of farmed salmon on the European market, because they knew that the Irish Government—which was prepared to take action—was incapable of delivering results on its own. We have the benefit of being part of the UK as well as having our own Parliament to deal with a range of domestic Scottish issues. The people of Scotland voted for that settlement once in a referendum and overwhelmingly voted for it again in the Scottish Parliament elections. That settlement is reflected and made workable in these documents, which recognise that this is a Parliament within a United Kingdom, where it is in all our interests for us all to co-operate. I ask the Parliament to support these concordats.", "EditedTextHTML": "I really ought to make progress as there is a business motion to follow. The Presiding Officer is nodding—I think that I might already be straying over time.

A couple of members raised points about Scotland House. I can confirm to Mr Lyon that there will be a hot-desk facility at UKRep in Brussels and that Scotland House will be fully plugged into information flows that come through UKRep. At the same time, Scotland House will have the opportunity to provide a specifically Scottish focus for Scottish interests in Brussels. In that way, we get the best of both worlds. As Mr Lyon said, we will have 10 votes when we negotiate in the European Union, instead of the three that we would be left with if we were in the hands of the SNP.

I well remember SNP MPs pleading with the previous Conservative Government to take effective action against the dumping of farmed salmon on the European market, because they knew that the Irish Government—which was prepared to take action—was incapable of delivering results on its own. We have the benefit of being part of the UK as well as having our own Parliament to deal with a range of domestic Scottish issues. The people of Scotland voted for that settlement once in a referendum and overwhelmingly voted for it again in the Scottish Parliament elections. That settlement is reflected and made workable in these documents, which recognise that this is a Parliament within a United Kingdom, where it is in all our interests for us all to co-operate. I ask the Parliament to support these concordats.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C709568", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26914, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 455.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 455.0, "ID": 26914, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ms Patricia Ferguson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 456.0, "ContributionID": 709568, "EditedText": "We now move to the next item of business. I call Mr Tom McCabe to move business motion S1M-196.", "EditedTextHTML": "We now move to the next item of business. I call Mr Tom McCabe to move business motion S1M-196.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709572", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26914, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 455.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 455.0, "ID": 26914, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 464.0, "ContributionID": 709572, "EditedText": "Question, That the meeting be now adjourned until 2.30 pm, put and agreed to.—Mr McCabe.", "EditedTextHTML": "Question, That the meeting be now adjourned until 2.30 pm, put and agreed to.—[Mr McCabe.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709575", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26915, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 468.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26916, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 469.0, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 469.0, "ID": 26916, "ParentID": 26915 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 470.0, "ContributionID": 709575, "EditedText": "The first item of business this afternoon is question time. As usual, I urge members to bear in mind the requirement for supplementary questions to be brief and to relate properly to the same matter as the original question.", "EditedTextHTML": "The first item of business this afternoon is question time. As usual, I urge members to bear in mind the requirement for supplementary questions to be brief and to relate properly to the same matter as the original question.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2167E79P155C709577", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26915, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 468.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26916, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 469.0, "QuestionHeading": "Free School Transport", "QuestionHeadingID": 26917, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 472.0, "DisplayOrder": 472.0, "ID": 26917, "ParentID": 26916 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Peacock, Peter", "ID": 2167, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Peter Peacock", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Children and Education (Peter Peacock): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 475.0, "ContributionID": 709577, "EditedText": "The matters referred to are within the jurisdiction of the local council. Mr Campbell may wish to approach Renfrewshire Council.", "EditedTextHTML": "The matters referred to are within the jurisdiction of the local council. Mr Campbell may wish to approach Renfrewshire Council.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2118E157P454C709580", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26915, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 468.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26916, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 469.0, "QuestionHeading": "Immunisation", "QuestionHeadingID": 26918, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 481.0, "DisplayOrder": 481.0, "ID": 26918, "ParentID": 26916 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Quinan, Mr Lloyd", "ID": 2118, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lloyd Quinan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "2. Mr Lloyd Quinan (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 482.0, "ContributionID": 709580, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what percentage of children due to enter primary school next year will not receive the diphtheria and anti-tetanus injections they would normally receive in the next two months. (S1O-419)", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what percentage of children due to enter primary school next year will not receive the diphtheria and anti-tetanus injections they would normally receive in the next two months. (S1O-419)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C709583", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26915, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 468.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26916, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 469.0, "QuestionHeading": "Immunisation", "QuestionHeadingID": 26918, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 481.0, "DisplayOrder": 481.0, "ID": 26918, "ParentID": 26916 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 488.0, "ContributionID": 709583, "EditedText": "Mr Quinan has more experience of forecasting than I have, and he will know the dangers of trying to be precise on such matters. It is impossible for us to be precise. The important assurance I can give is that the Scottish health department—working in co-operation with the UK health department—is doing everything possible to resolve operational manufacturing problems, to ensure that our children are best protected through the vaccination programme.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Quinan has more experience of forecasting than I have, and he will know the dangers of trying to be precise on such matters. It is impossible for us to be precise. The important assurance I can give is that the Scottish health department—working in co-operation with the UK health department—is doing everything possible to resolve operational manufacturing problems, to ensure that our children are best protected through the vaccination programme.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2118E157P454C709584", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26915, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 468.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26916, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 469.0, "QuestionHeading": "Immunisation", "QuestionHeadingID": 26918, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 481.0, "DisplayOrder": 481.0, "ID": 26918, "ParentID": 26916 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Quinan, Mr Lloyd", "ID": 2118, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lloyd Quinan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Quinan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 490.0, "ContributionID": 709584, "EditedText": "Has the minister had any meetings with Pasteur Mérieux or Medeva plc, as Frank Dobson has had? Those companies have stated publicly that they cannot speed up the process, as it is biological, and that there will be a shortage in Britain. I will ask again. How many children entering primary school next year will not receive the vaccine that they should receive in the next two months?", "EditedTextHTML": "Has the minister had any meetings with Pasteur Mérieux or Medeva plc, as Frank Dobson has had? Those companies have stated publicly that they cannot speed up the process, as it is biological, and that there will be a shortage in Britain.

I will ask again. How many children entering primary school next year will not receive the vaccine that they should receive in the next two months?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1781E188P474C709589", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26915, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 468.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26916, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 469.0, "QuestionHeading": "Health Boards and Trusts", "QuestionHeadingID": 26920, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 501.0, "DisplayOrder": 501.0, "ID": 26920, "ParentID": 26916 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McGugan, Irene", "ID": 1781, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Irene McGugan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "4. Irene McGugan (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 502.0, "ContributionID": 709589, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has to ensure that meetings of health boards and health trusts are open to the press and public. (S1O-435) The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): All health boards and NHS trusts are already required to open their board meetings to the press and to the public.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has to ensure that meetings of health boards and health trusts are open to the press and public. (S1O-435) The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): All health boards and NHS trusts are already required to open their board meetings to the press and to the public.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C709591", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26915, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 468.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26916, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 469.0, "QuestionHeading": "Health Boards and Trusts", "QuestionHeadingID": 26920, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 501.0, "DisplayOrder": 501.0, "ID": 26920, "ParentID": 26916 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 506.0, "ContributionID": 709591, "EditedText": "I stress that I am always at pains to ensure that effective local engagement takes place throughout the country. I have said in answer to a previous question on Stracathro hospital that I have asked health department officials to meet local board and trust representatives to ensure that effective engagement takes place at local level during the on-going consultation that must take place as part of the local acute services review.", "EditedTextHTML": "I stress that I am always at pains to ensure that effective local engagement takes place throughout the country. I have said in answer to a previous question on Stracathro hospital that I have asked health department officials to meet local board and trust representatives to ensure that effective engagement takes place at local level during the on-going consultation that must take place as part of the local acute services review.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C709596", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26915, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 468.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26916, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 469.0, "QuestionHeading": "Police", "QuestionHeadingID": 26921, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 508.0, "DisplayOrder": 508.0, "ID": 26921, "ParentID": 26916 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 517.0, "ContributionID": 709596, "EditedText": "The number of injuries on duty was 19 in 1994-95 and 33 in 1998-99—that was a fall from 38 the previous year. The proportion of the force retiring because of stress and mental illness was 0.2 per cent in each of those years. However, the proportion of those retiring through stress or mental illness in relation to total retirement through ill health would be higher, given the fact that the total number of retirements through ill health has fallen. There has been an almost constant percentage of retirements because of stress and mental illness, but the total number of ill health retirements has declined, so the proportion of stress-related retirements is greater.", "EditedTextHTML": "The number of injuries on duty was 19 in 1994-95 and 33 in 1998-99—that was a fall from 38 the previous year.

The proportion of the force retiring because of stress and mental illness was 0.2 per cent in each of those years. However, the proportion of those retiring through stress or mental illness in relation to total retirement through ill health would be higher, given the fact that the total number of retirements through ill health has fallen. There has been an almost constant percentage of retirements because of stress and mental illness, but the total number of ill health retirements has declined, so the proportion of stress-related retirements is greater.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C709600", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26915, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 468.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26916, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 469.0, "QuestionHeading": "Police", "QuestionHeadingID": 26921, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 508.0, "DisplayOrder": 508.0, "ID": 26921, "ParentID": 26916 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 525.0, "ContributionID": 709600, "EditedText": "No research has been done on the precise effect of civilianisation on retirements through ill health. I can say to Mr Galloway—Laughter. I do not mean the honourable member for Hillhead. The effect of civilianisation is to free up more of police officers' time for front-line duties. Members in all parts of the chamber will welcome that.", "EditedTextHTML": "No research has been done on the precise effect of civilianisation on retirements through ill health.

I can say to Mr Galloway—[Laughter.] I do not mean the honourable member for Hillhead.

The effect of civilianisation is to free up more of police officers' time for front-line duties. Members

in all parts of the chamber will welcome that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1888E265P358C709601", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26915, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 468.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26916, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 469.0, "QuestionHeading": "Roads (Dumfries and Galloway)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26922, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 527.0, "DisplayOrder": 527.0, "ID": 26922, "ParentID": 26916 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morgan, Alasdair", "ID": 1888, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Galloway and Upper Nithsdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morgan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "6. Alasdair Morgan (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 528.0, "ContributionID": 709601, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what discussion it has had with Dumfries and Galloway Council concerning trunk roads in that area and whether it will make a statement on the upgrading of trunk roads in the area. (S1O-426) The Minister for Transport and the Environment (Sarah Boyack): I discussed the issue of trunk roads with the council in August, and I have suggested that there should be a fuller discussion later this year. The route action plans that have been agreed, or which are in preparation for most of the trunk roads in the area, will provide the framework for that discussion and for any future investment.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what discussion it has had with Dumfries and Galloway Council concerning trunk roads in that area and whether it will make a statement on the upgrading of trunk roads in the area. (S1O-426) The Minister for Transport and the Environment (Sarah Boyack): I discussed the issue of trunk roads with the council in August, and I have suggested that there should be a fuller discussion later this year. The route action plans that have been agreed, or which are in preparation for most of the trunk roads in the area, will provide the framework for that discussion and for any future investment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1865E219P509C709604", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26915, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 468.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26916, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 469.0, "QuestionHeading": "European Funding", "QuestionHeadingID": 26923, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 534.0, "DisplayOrder": 534.0, "ID": 26923, "ParentID": 26916 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "White, Sandra", "ID": 1865, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sandra White", "SpeakerDisplayName": "7. Ms Sandra White (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 535.0, "ContributionID": 709604, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive how it intends to address the potential loss of European regional funding to Glasgow City Council of up to £500,000. (S1O424) The Minister for Finance (Mr Jack McConnell): Glasgow City Council's and other bodies' approvals for current programmes have been finalised, and decisions for the future will follow agreement with the European Commission on eligibility in Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive how it intends to address the potential loss of European regional funding to Glasgow City Council of up to £500,000. (S1O424) The Minister for Finance (Mr Jack McConnell): Glasgow City Council's and other bodies' approvals for current programmes have been finalised, and decisions for the future will follow agreement with the European Commission on eligibility in Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C709606", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26915, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 468.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26916, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 469.0, "QuestionHeading": "European Funding", "QuestionHeadingID": 26923, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 534.0, "DisplayOrder": 534.0, "ID": 26923, "ParentID": 26916 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 539.0, "ContributionID": 709606, "EditedText": "The purpose of those guidelines is to avoid any loss to Glasgow City Council or any other body. If those bodies were to use up money that had to be repaid, they would lose that money in due course. Ms White may be mixing up two separate issues—the new programme and the old one—and I would be happy to send her a copy of my letter to the leader of Glasgow City Council, which was signed this morning, and which will explain the matter in some detail.", "EditedTextHTML": "The purpose of those guidelines is to avoid any loss to Glasgow City Council or any other body. If those bodies were to use up money that had to be repaid, they would lose that money in due course. Ms White may be mixing up two separate issues—the new programme and the old one—and I would be happy to send her a copy of my letter to the leader of Glasgow City Council, which was signed this morning, and which will explain the matter in some detail.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2090E83P266C709607", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26915, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 468.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26916, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 469.0, "QuestionHeading": "Social Inclusion", "QuestionHeadingID": 26924, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 541.0, "DisplayOrder": 541.0, "ID": 26924, "ParentID": 26916 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAllion, Mr John", "ID": 2090, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dundee East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John McAllion", "SpeakerDisplayName": "8. Mr John McAllion (Dundee East) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 542.0, "ContributionID": 709607, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what proposals it has for improving the stability of funding for voluntary organisations working in the field of social inclusion. (S1O-416) The Deputy Minister for Communities (Jackie Baillie): The Scottish Executive values the significant role that is played by the voluntary sector in tackling social exclusion. That is one reason why we provide £283 million of support to the voluntary sector each year. As part of the Scottish compact, we are proposing good practice guidance on three-year grants and funding core costs to improve stability.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what proposals it has for improving the stability of funding for voluntary organisations working in the field of social inclusion. (S1O-416) The Deputy Minister for Communities (Jackie Baillie): The Scottish Executive values the significant role that is played by the voluntary sector in tackling social exclusion. That is one reason why we provide £283 million of support to the voluntary sector each year. As part of the Scottish compact, we are proposing good practice guidance on three-year grants and funding core costs to improve stability.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C709612", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26915, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 468.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26916, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 469.0, "QuestionHeading": "Social Inclusion", "QuestionHeadingID": 26924, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 541.0, "DisplayOrder": 541.0, "ID": 26924, "ParentID": 26916 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 552.0, "ContributionID": 709612, "EditedText": "Given that the message about the termination of the class war has obviously not reached the front-line troops yet, will the Executive join me in applauding the actions of the Communication Workers Union members in the east of Scotland, who have had to walk out today in support of a sacked colleague against the macho management in the mail service?", "EditedTextHTML": "Given that the message about the termination of the class war has obviously not reached the front-line troops yet, will the Executive join me in applauding the actions of the Communication Workers Union members in the east of Scotland, who have had to walk out today in support of a sacked colleague against the macho management in the mail service?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C709613", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26915, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 468.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26916, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 469.0, "QuestionHeading": "Social Inclusion", "QuestionHeadingID": 26924, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 541.0, "DisplayOrder": 541.0, "ID": 26924, "ParentID": 26916 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 554.0, "ContributionID": 709613, "EditedText": "As representatives of the Scottish Labour party—a party that grew out of the roots of working-class struggle—members of the Executive understand the need for industrial action in some circumstances, but let us be clear that it is the Labour party that has been the greatest civilising force in the lives of working people during this century.", "EditedTextHTML": "As representatives of the Scottish Labour party—a party that grew out of the roots of working-class struggle—members of the Executive understand the need for industrial action in some circumstances, but let us be clear that it is the Labour party that has been the greatest civilising force in the lives of working people during this century.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C709615", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26915, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 468.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26916, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 469.0, "QuestionHeading": "Social Inclusion", "QuestionHeadingID": 26924, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 541.0, "DisplayOrder": 541.0, "ID": 26924, "ParentID": 26916 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 558.0, "ContributionID": 709615, "EditedText": "I thank the minister for the Executive's support for the unofficial action taken by the CWU members today. Laughter. I am sure that they will be glad to hear about it. However, given that Britain is now the most unequal society in the whole of Europe, and given that we have the most shameful levels of poverty among our pensioners and children, will the minister— Interruption. I am sorry if my comments embarrass some members. Can the minister inform the chamber, if the class war is over, who won?", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the minister for the Executive's support for the unofficial action taken by the CWU members today. [Laughter.] I am sure that they will be glad to hear about it. However, given that Britain is now the most unequal society in the whole of Europe, and given that we have the most shameful levels of poverty among our pensioners and children, will the minister— [Interruption.] I am sorry if my comments embarrass some members. Can the minister inform the chamber, if the class war is over, who won?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709616", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26915, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 468.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26916, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 469.0, "QuestionHeading": "Social Inclusion", "QuestionHeadingID": 26924, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 541.0, "DisplayOrder": 541.0, "ID": 26924, "ParentID": 26916 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 560.0, "ContributionID": 709616, "EditedText": "You.", "EditedTextHTML": "You.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C709619", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26915, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 468.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26916, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 469.0, "QuestionHeading": "Social Inclusion", "QuestionHeadingID": 26924, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 541.0, "DisplayOrder": 541.0, "ID": 26924, "ParentID": 26916 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 566.0, "ContributionID": 709619, "EditedText": "That effectively represents a minimum wage for such a family in excess of £5 an hour, which is more than he campaigned for for many years.", "EditedTextHTML": "That effectively represents a minimum wage for such a family in excess of £5 an hour, which is more than he campaigned for for many years.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2152E53P75C709620", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26915, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 468.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26916, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 469.0, "QuestionHeading": "Telecommunications Masts", "QuestionHeadingID": 26925, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 568.0, "DisplayOrder": 568.0, "ID": 26925, "ParentID": 26916 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnston, Nick", "ID": 2152, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nick Johnston", "SpeakerDisplayName": "10. Mr Nick Johnston (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 569.0, "ContributionID": 709620, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will introduce a ban on the erection of telecommunication masts in conservation areas. (S1O-440) The Minister for Transport and the Environment (Sarah Boyack): No. We are, however, proposing to introduce soon measures to give planning authorities greater influence over the siting and design of telecommunications masts and related developments.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will introduce a ban on the erection of telecommunication masts in conservation areas. (S1O-440) The Minister for Transport and the Environment (Sarah Boyack): No. We are, however, proposing to introduce soon measures to give planning authorities greater influence over the siting and design of telecommunications masts and related developments.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1926E190P479C709629", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26915, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 468.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26916, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 469.0, "QuestionHeading": "Foresterhill Laboratories", "QuestionHeadingID": 26927, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 588.0, "DisplayOrder": 588.0, "ID": 26927, "ParentID": 26916 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Adam, Brian", "ID": 1926, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Adam", "SpeakerDisplayName": "12. Brian Adam (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 589.0, "ContributionID": 709629, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether the meeting between the reference laboratories working group and director of reference laboratories at Foresterhill, referred to by the Minister for Health and Community Care in the food standards debate on 15 September 1999, has taken place and what the outcome was. (S1O-447)", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether the meeting between the reference laboratories working group and director of reference laboratories at Foresterhill, referred to by the Minister for Health and Community Care in the food standards debate on 15 September 1999, has taken place and what the outcome was. (S1O-447)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1926E190P479C709632", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26915, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 468.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26916, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 469.0, "QuestionHeading": "Foresterhill Laboratories", "QuestionHeadingID": 26927, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 588.0, "DisplayOrder": 588.0, "ID": 26927, "ParentID": 26916 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Adam, Brian", "ID": 1926, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Adam", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Brian Adam: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 595.0, "ContributionID": 709632, "EditedText": "Is the minister aware of the correspondence on campylobacter—which is the subject here—between a number of national and international experts, particularly those who attended the recent conference in Baltimore, and the laboratory, and will she comment on the concerns that they raised about the closure of the laboratory? Will she reconsider her earlier decision to close it?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is the minister aware of the correspondence on campylobacter—which is the subject here—between a number of national and international experts, particularly those who attended the recent conference in Baltimore, and the laboratory, and will she comment on the concerns that they raised about the closure of the laboratory? Will she reconsider her earlier decision to close it?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C709633", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26915, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 468.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26916, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 469.0, "QuestionHeading": "Foresterhill Laboratories", "QuestionHeadingID": 26927, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 588.0, "DisplayOrder": 588.0, "ID": 26927, "ParentID": 26916 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 597.0, "ContributionID": 709633, "EditedText": "I applaud Mr Adam's creativity in questioning. I am aware of the matter that he raised, and I assure him that my primary concern is the quality of work done through all contracts with the Scottish Executive. I hope that the meeting to which his original question referred will provide an opportunity for discussions on how improvements in the labs concerned can take place.", "EditedTextHTML": "I applaud Mr Adam's creativity in questioning. I am aware of the matter that he raised, and I assure him that my primary concern is the quality of work done through all contracts with the Scottish Executive. I hope that the meeting to which his original question referred will provide an opportunity for discussions on how improvements in the labs concerned can take place.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6076979+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1893E47P78C709635", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26915, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 468.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26916, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 469.0, "QuestionHeading": "Urban Foxes", "QuestionHeadingID": 26928, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 599.0, "DisplayOrder": 599.0, "ID": 26928, "ParentID": 26916 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnstone, Alex", "ID": 1893, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Johnstone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Johnstone: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 602.0, "ContributionID": 709635, "EditedText": "Does the minister agree that, with the fox population in Scotland at a record level, and when some 3,000 foxes have made the shift from a rural to an urban environment, it would be a strange time for the Parliament to take the opportunity that may be presented to it to ban certain traditional methods of fox control in Scotland?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the minister agree that, with the fox population in Scotland at a record level, and when some 3,000 foxes have made the shift from a rural to an urban environment, it would be a strange time for the Parliament to take the opportunity that may be presented to it to ban certain traditional methods of fox control in Scotland?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6233244+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C709639", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26915, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 468.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26916, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 469.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meeting)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26929, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 606.0, "DisplayOrder": 606.0, "ID": 26929, "ParentID": 26916 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 611.0, "ContributionID": 709639, "EditedText": "Politicians should never make confident assumptions. I will draw the Secretary of State for Scotland'sattention to Mr Canavan's complaint.", "EditedTextHTML": "Politicians should never make confident assumptions.

I will draw the Secretary of State for Scotland's

attention to Mr Canavan's complaint.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6233244+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2100E64P254C709644", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26915, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 468.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26916, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 469.0, "QuestionHeading": "Fishing Industry", "QuestionHeadingID": 26930, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 613.0, "DisplayOrder": 613.0, "ID": 26930, "ParentID": 26916 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Home Robertson, John", "ID": 2100, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Lothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "John Home Robertson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Home Robertson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 622.0, "ContributionID": 709644, "EditedText": "If that is the case, it is strange that they have not spoken to their local member of Parliament about it: I am sure that they would have. The new boundary is a properly calculated median line, and if Mr Lochhead has difficulty in grasping that fact, I am grateful to be able to tell him that an East Lothian branch of the SNP wrote to me to confirm that the new line corresponds to what an equidistant boundary line should be. That branch is right, and he is wrong.", "EditedTextHTML": "If that is the case, it is strange that they have not spoken to their local member of Parliament about it: I am sure that they would have. The new boundary is a properly calculated median line, and if Mr Lochhead has difficulty in grasping that fact, I am grateful to be able to tell him that an East Lothian branch of the SNP wrote to me to confirm that the new line corresponds to what an equidistant boundary line should be. That branch is right, and he is wrong.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6233244+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C709653", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26933, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 640.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26934, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 641.0, "QuestionHeading": "Scottish Assigned Budget", "QuestionHeadingID": 26935, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 642.0, "DisplayOrder": 642.0, "ID": 26935, "ParentID": 26934 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bruce Crawford: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 645.0, "ContributionID": 709653, "EditedText": "Can the First Minister confirm that if the payment to the structural fund grant increases or decreases from one year to the next, the resources available for other purposes change accordingly? Will he confirm that the Executive will adjust its other programmes, up or down, to reflect the expected call on the assigned budget from the structural funds payment in any one year? In other words, is it correct to say that structural funds are non-additional to Scotland's overall bottom-line position?", "EditedTextHTML": "Can the First Minister confirm that if the payment to the structural fund grant increases or decreases from one year to the next, the resources available for other purposes change accordingly? Will he confirm that the Executive will adjust its other programmes, up or down, to reflect the expected call on the assigned budget from the structural funds payment in any one year? In other words, is it correct to say that structural funds are non-additional to Scotland's overall bottom-line position?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6233244+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2066E64P88C709657", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26933, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 640.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26934, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 641.0, "QuestionHeading": "Scottish Assigned Budget", "QuestionHeadingID": 26935, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 642.0, "DisplayOrder": 642.0, "ID": 26935, "ParentID": 26934 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McGrigor, Jamie", "ID": 2066, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie McGrigor", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Jamie McGrigor (Highlands and Islands) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 653.0, "ContributionID": 709657, "EditedText": "Does the Scottish Executive accept that its loss of objective 1 status for the Highlands and Islands, which was so hard fought for by previous Administrations, was somewhat careless? It will cost the region about £40 million over the next five years, despite the temporary alternative funding.", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the Scottish Executive accept that its loss of objective 1 status for the Highlands and Islands, which was so hard fought for by previous Administrations, was somewhat careless? It will cost the region about £40 million over the next five years, despite the temporary alternative funding.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6233244+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C709660", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26933, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 640.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26934, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 641.0, "QuestionHeading": "Scottish Assigned Budget", "QuestionHeadingID": 26935, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 642.0, "DisplayOrder": 642.0, "ID": 26935, "ParentID": 26934 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 659.0, "ContributionID": 709660, "EditedText": "Yes. That has been the case for as long as I can remember. Those who have been involved in these matters appreciate that. If the SNP position is—I got a hint that it is from the facial expressions and the noises—that this is a new scandal, either SNP members have failed to understand the system or I am surprised that they campaigned so hard for eligibility status for the Highlands or Islands or other parts of Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes. That has been the case for as long as I can remember. Those who have been involved in these matters appreciate that. If the SNP position is—I got a hint that it is from the facial expressions and the noises—that this is a new scandal, either SNP members have failed to understand the system or I am surprised that they campaigned so hard for eligibility status for the Highlands or Islands or other parts of Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6233244+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C709663", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26933, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 640.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26934, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 641.0, "QuestionHeading": "Drugs", "QuestionHeadingID": 26936, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 665.0, "DisplayOrder": 665.0, "ID": 26936, "ParentID": 26934 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "2. Miss Annabel Goldie (West of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 666.0, "ContributionID": 709663, "EditedText": "Sir David, my question refers to Mr Angus MacKay. With your permission, I wish to inform members that I believe Mr MacKay is getting married tomorrow. I am sure that the chamber will want to express its very good wishes for the future to him and his fiancée. To ask the Scottish Executive, further to the answer to question S1W-101 by Angus MacKay on 30 June, what progress the ministerial group has made in tackling the drugs problem in Scotland. (S1O-420)", "EditedTextHTML": "Sir David, my question refers to Mr Angus MacKay. With your permission, I wish to inform members that I believe Mr MacKay is getting married tomorrow. I am sure that the chamber will want to express its very good wishes for the future to him and his fiancée. To ask the Scottish Executive, further to the answer to question S1W-101 by Angus MacKay on 30 June, what progress the ministerial group has made in tackling the drugs problem in Scotland. (S1O-420)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6233244+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C709664", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26933, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 640.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26934, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 641.0, "QuestionHeading": "Drugs", "QuestionHeadingID": 26936, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 665.0, "DisplayOrder": 665.0, "ID": 26936, "ParentID": 26934 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Justice (Angus MacKay) rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 668.0, "ContributionID": 709664, "EditedText": "Applause.", "EditedTextHTML": "

[Applause.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6233244+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C709665", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26933, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 640.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26934, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 641.0, "QuestionHeading": "Drugs", "QuestionHeadingID": 26936, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 665.0, "DisplayOrder": 665.0, "ID": 26936, "ParentID": 26934 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Angus MacKay: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 670.0, "ContributionID": 709665, "EditedText": "Presiding Officer, I will have to resort to this ploy more often. Miss Goldie's remarks are a particularly fiendish Tory ploy to distract me from answering the question. The ministerial committee on tackling drug misuse, which I chair, met for the first time on 17 August and agreed a programme of action to take forward the Executive's commitment to tackling the drugs problem in Scotland. That action included the adoption of \"Tackling Drugs in Scotland: Action in Partnership\" as a strategy document. In addition, the committee agreed to carry out an audit of all drugs-related expenditure in Scotland, with a particular view to providing additional facilities for rehabilitation. It also considered adding alcohol abuse to its remit and noted the progress that is being made in setting up the new drugs enforcement agency.", "EditedTextHTML": "Presiding Officer, I will have to resort to this ploy more often. Miss Goldie's remarks are a particularly fiendish Tory ploy to distract me from answering the question.

The ministerial committee on tackling drug misuse, which I chair, met for the first time on 17 August and agreed a programme of action to take forward the Executive's commitment to tackling the drugs problem in Scotland. That action included the adoption of \"Tackling Drugs in Scotland: Action in Partnership\" as a strategy document.

In addition, the committee agreed to carry out an audit of all drugs-related expenditure in Scotland, with a particular view to providing additional facilities for rehabilitation. It also considered adding alcohol abuse to its remit and noted the progress that is being made in setting up the new drugs enforcement agency.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6233244+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C709670", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26933, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 640.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26934, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 641.0, "QuestionHeading": "Drugs", "QuestionHeadingID": 26936, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 665.0, "DisplayOrder": 665.0, "ID": 26936, "ParentID": 26934 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Goldie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 680.0, "ContributionID": 709670, "EditedText": "Rabbits. They are breeding like rabbits. Perhaps even foxes. The ministerial structure is sensible—none of us doubts that. The minister's answer is significant. He said that he occupies a position that neither I nor, I suspect, the public were clear about. I suggest that, were that position to be more public, a positive message would be sent to the people of Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "Rabbits. They are breeding like rabbits. Perhaps even foxes.

The ministerial structure is sensible—none of us doubts that. The minister's answer is significant. He said that he occupies a position that neither I nor, I suspect, the public were clear about. I suggest that, were that position to be more public, a positive message would be sent to the people of Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6233244+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C709672", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26933, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 640.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26934, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 641.0, "QuestionHeading": "Drugs", "QuestionHeadingID": 26936, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 665.0, "DisplayOrder": 665.0, "ID": 26936, "ParentID": 26934 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Angus MacKay: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 684.0, "ContributionID": 709672, "EditedText": "I will refrain from commenting on the breeding habits of my ministerial colleagues—foxes, chickens or otherwise— despite Miss Goldie's invitation. I repeat that a genuinely cross-cutting approach is being taken, particularly in relation to the issue of drugs in Scotland. We are cutting across departmental lines in a way that has not happened before. We are also going out of our way to cut across agency lines in the public and private sectors to bring all the available resources to bear on the drugs problem: the Scottish advisory committee on drug misuse is meeting more frequently than it did previously; ministers are visiting all the drug action teams in Scotland to check up on the progress that is being made on implementing drug action strategies; and we are visiting agencies in the field. Matters of profile can be addressed in the process of implementing policy, but it is for the First Minister to decide how ministerial portfolios are allocated.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will refrain from commenting on the breeding habits of my ministerial colleagues—foxes, chickens or otherwise— despite Miss Goldie's invitation.

I repeat that a genuinely cross-cutting approach is being taken, particularly in relation to the issue of drugs in Scotland. We are cutting across departmental lines in a way that has not happened before. We are also going out of our way to cut across agency lines in the public and private sectors to bring all the available resources to bear on the drugs problem: the Scottish advisory committee on drug misuse is meeting more frequently than it did previously; ministers are visiting all the drug action teams in Scotland to check up on the progress that is being made on implementing drug action strategies; and we are visiting agencies in the field.

Matters of profile can be addressed in the process of implementing policy, but it is for the First Minister to decide how ministerial portfolios are allocated.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6233244+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1931E120P189C709674", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26933, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 640.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26934, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 641.0, "QuestionHeading": "Housing", "QuestionHeadingID": 26937, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 686.0, "DisplayOrder": 686.0, "ID": 26937, "ParentID": 26934 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Muldoon, Bristow", "ID": 1931, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Livingston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bristow Muldoon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bristow Muldoon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 689.0, "ContributionID": 709674, "EditedText": "Does the minister agree that a move towards greater flexibility for local authorities would add to their ability to ensure that elderly people can live independent lives in the community for longer? Does she agree with the Government's plans on community care in general?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the minister agree that a move towards greater flexibility for local authorities would add to their ability to ensure that elderly people can live independent lives in the community for longer? Does she agree with the Government's plans on community care in general?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6233244+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C709675", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26933, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 640.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26934, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 641.0, "QuestionHeading": "Housing", "QuestionHeadingID": 26937, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 686.0, "DisplayOrder": 686.0, "ID": 26937, "ParentID": 26934 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 691.0, "ContributionID": 709675, "EditedText": "I believe that specially adapted housing to meet all the needs of care in the community should remain in the socially rented sector and should be protected.", "EditedTextHTML": "I believe that specially adapted housing to meet all the needs of care in the community should remain in the socially rented sector and should be protected.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6233244+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709684", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26933, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 640.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26934, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 641.0, "QuestionHeading": "Housing", "QuestionHeadingID": 26937, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 686.0, "DisplayOrder": 686.0, "ID": 26937, "ParentID": 26934 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 709.0, "ContributionID": 709684, "EditedText": "Dr Ewing, ministerial answers are the responsibility of the minister, not the Presiding Officer. We come to the statement that is—", "EditedTextHTML": "Dr Ewing, ministerial answers are the responsibility of the minister, not the Presiding Officer. We come to the statement that is—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6233244+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709686", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26933, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 640.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26934, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 641.0, "QuestionHeading": "Housing", "QuestionHeadingID": 26937, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 686.0, "DisplayOrder": 686.0, "ID": 26937, "ParentID": 26934 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 713.0, "ContributionID": 709686, "EditedText": "Another point of order? I hope that it is a different one.", "EditedTextHTML": "Another point of order? I hope that it is a different one.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6233244+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1828E200P487C709687", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26933, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 640.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26934, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 641.0, "QuestionHeading": "Housing", "QuestionHeadingID": 26937, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 686.0, "DisplayOrder": 686.0, "ID": 26937, "ParentID": 26934 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacDonald, Margo", "ID": 1828, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margo MacDonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms MacDonald: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 715.0, "ContributionID": 709687, "EditedText": "Is it in order for a minister or any member of the Parliament to cast aspersions on the democratic legitimacy of any of the members here? Twice in the past three weeks, the Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs has questioned the status of members elected from the lists rather than the constituencies.", "EditedTextHTML": "Is it in order for a minister or any member of the Parliament to cast aspersions on the democratic legitimacy of any of the members here? Twice in the past three weeks, the Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs has questioned the status of members elected from the lists rather than the constituencies.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6233244+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709689", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Railways", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26938, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 719.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 719.0, "ID": 26938, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 720.0, "ContributionID": 709689, "EditedText": "We come now to the ministerial statement from Sarah Boyack. The minister will take questions at the end of the statement. There should, therefore, be no interventions during it.", "EditedTextHTML": "We come now to the ministerial statement from Sarah Boyack. The minister will take questions at the end of the statement. There should, therefore, be no interventions during it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6233244+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2112E192P495C709692", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Railways", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26938, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 719.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 719.0, "ID": 26938, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacAskill, Kenny", "ID": 2112, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenny MacAskill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Kenny MacAskill (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 727.0, "ContributionID": 709692, "EditedText": "I concur with the minister's statement regarding the tragic accident in London. Does the minister agree that the bill transfers responsibility to the Scottish Parliament but not control of the budgetary allocation? We will have responsibility without revenue and control of the trains but not the track. Will the minister confirm that apart from any revenue gain on a franchise agreement, the only way in which the Parliament can expand the rail network within the block grant allocation is to cut jobs and services in some other area, such as health or housing?", "EditedTextHTML": "I concur with the minister's statement regarding the tragic accident in London.

Does the minister agree that the bill transfers responsibility to the Scottish Parliament but not control of the budgetary allocation? We will have responsibility without revenue and control of the trains but not the track. Will the minister confirm that apart from any revenue gain on a franchise agreement, the only way in which the Parliament can expand the rail network within the block grant allocation is to cut jobs and services in some other area, such as health or housing?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6233244+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1931E120P189C709696", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Railways", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26938, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 719.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 719.0, "ID": 26938, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Muldoon, Bristow", "ID": 1931, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Livingston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bristow Muldoon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bristow Muldoon (Livingston) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 735.0, "ContributionID": 709696, "EditedText": "I ask the Deputy Presiding Officer to note a previously declared interest in the National Union of Rail, Maritime and Transport Workers and the Transport Salaried Staffs Association. As somebody who has worked in the rail industry for many years and who has links with certain of the rail unions, I wish to associate myself with the comments of concern and sympathy that the minister and other members have made today, and that Annabel Goldie made yesterday, about the tragic accident at Paddington. Will the minister expand on how she believes the transfer of executive functions will impact on safety in the rail industry in Scotland? How does she intend to take that matter forward with Railtrack and the various other organisations that are responsible for safety?", "EditedTextHTML": "I ask the Deputy Presiding Officer to note a previously declared interest in the National Union of Rail, Maritime and Transport Workers and the Transport Salaried Staffs Association.

As somebody who has worked in the rail industry for many years and who has links with certain of the rail unions, I wish to associate myself with the comments of concern and sympathy that the minister and other members have made today, and that Annabel Goldie made yesterday, about the tragic accident at Paddington.

Will the minister expand on how she believes the transfer of executive functions will impact on safety in the rail industry in Scotland? How does she intend to take that matter forward with Railtrack and the various other organisations that are responsible for safety?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6233244+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C709702", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Railways", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26938, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 719.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 719.0, "ID": 26938, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan (Falkirk West): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 747.0, "ContributionID": 709702, "EditedText": "Further to Murray Tosh's point, is the minister aware that we have been waiting a long, long time for the electrification of the railway line between Edinburgh and Glasgow via Falkirk High? When is that going to happen? Will the minister make appropriate representations to Railtrack to make this matter a top priority?", "EditedTextHTML": "Further to Murray Tosh's point, is the minister aware that we have been waiting a long, long time for the electrification of the railway line between Edinburgh and Glasgow via Falkirk High? When is that going to happen? Will the minister make appropriate representations to Railtrack to make this matter a top priority?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6233244+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C709704", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Railways", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26938, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 719.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 719.0, "ID": 26938, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 751.0, "ContributionID": 709704, "EditedText": "We need to cut the travel time.", "EditedTextHTML": "We need to cut the travel time.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6233244+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1778E91P257C709710", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Railways", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26938, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 719.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 719.0, "ID": 26938, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Eadie, Helen", "ID": 1778, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dunfermline East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Helen Eadie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Helen Eadie (Dunfermline East) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 763.0, "ContributionID": 709710, "EditedText": "I join the minister in sending my condolences to the people who have been involved in the tragedy at Paddington. I congratulate the minister on her commitment to the rail industry—a commitment that I share—but I also want to be critical of the rail industry's attitude to Fife, where rail service provision is among the worst in Scotland. Although I understand Dennis Canavan's point about rail electrification, I am more concerned about access for disabled people. I am not convinced that the rail industry has properly provided for disabled access. What does the minister plan to do about that?", "EditedTextHTML": "I join the minister in sending my condolences to the people who have been involved in the tragedy at Paddington.

I congratulate the minister on her commitment to the rail industry—a commitment that I share—but I also want to be critical of the rail industry's attitude to Fife, where rail service provision is among the worst in Scotland.

Although I understand Dennis Canavan's point about rail electrification, I am more concerned about access for disabled people. I am not convinced that the rail industry has properly provided for disabled access. What does the minister plan to do about that?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6233244+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1768E72P274C709714", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Railways", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26938, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 719.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 719.0, "ID": 26938, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Murray, Elaine", "ID": 1768, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumfries" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Murray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Elaine Murray (Dumfries) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 771.0, "ContributionID": 709714, "EditedText": "I was encouraged by the minister's statements about examining rural transport. I have personal experience of the improvements in the Glasgow to Edinburgh service. That is great, but many parts of the country are not able even to tap into that service. I refer in particular to my constituency, in Dumfries and Galloway, where it is not possible to commute to Edinburgh in time to come to Parliament, for example, using the rail service. I ask the minister to examine ways in which the service to that part of the world can be improved. Only an increase in the number of trains that stop at Lockerbie would be needed to put that right. Can the Executive exert any influence on railway service providers to improve the service for people in the south-west of Scotland?", "EditedTextHTML": "I was encouraged by the minister's statements about examining rural transport. I have personal experience of the improvements in the Glasgow to Edinburgh service. That is great, but many parts of the country are not able even to tap into that service. I refer in particular to my constituency, in Dumfries and Galloway, where it is not possible to commute to Edinburgh in time to come to Parliament, for example, using the rail service.

I ask the minister to examine ways in which the service to that part of the world can be improved. Only an increase in the number of trains that stop at Lockerbie would be needed to put that right. Can the Executive exert any influence on railway service providers to improve the service for people in the south-west of Scotland?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6233244+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C709718", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture (Agenda 2000)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26939, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 779.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 779.0, "ID": 26939, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ms Patricia Ferguson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 780.0, "ContributionID": 709718, "EditedText": "We now move to the debate on motion S1M-185, in the name of Ross Finnie, on Agenda 2000 and the development of agriculture in Scotland, and amendments to that motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "We now move to the debate on motion S1M-185, in the name of Ross Finnie, on Agenda 2000 and the development of agriculture in Scotland, and amendments to that motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6233244+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C709732", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture (Agenda 2000)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26939, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 779.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 779.0, "ID": 26939, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ross Finnie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 811.0, "ContributionID": 709732, "EditedText": "But true.", "EditedTextHTML": "But true.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6233244+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709766", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Lead Committees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26941, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 883.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 883.0, "ID": 26941, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 886.0, "ContributionID": 709766, "EditedText": "The Justice and Home Affairs Committee to consider the Abolition of Poindings and Warrant Sales Bill;", "EditedTextHTML": "The Justice and Home Affairs Committee to consider the Abolition of Poindings and Warrant Sales Bill;

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6233244+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1893E47P78C709733", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture (Agenda 2000)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26939, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 779.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 779.0, "ID": 26939, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnstone, Alex", "ID": 1893, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Johnstone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Johnstone: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 813.0, "ContributionID": 709733, "EditedText": "I have to say that I am not endorsing the call, heard occasionally from certain parties in Scotland, to join the single currency. The problems associated with the high value of sterling and high interest rates have been created to a significant extent by policies driven by the current Chancellor of the Exchequer in his desperate attempt to get our economy into line with that of Europe, so that ultimately he can join that single currency. If he took a broader view, considered the economic situation in this country and acted in such a way as to follow the needs of the farming industry rather than the needs of his own long- term economic aim, we would not be in the position in which we find ourselves today. I endorse the view, expressed earlier by Alasdair Morgan, that transport costs are a major part of the problem faced by the industry. A farmer in the north or north-east of Scotland is almost 600 miles from the main market of Europe. Raw materials have to be hauled in over that distance and products have to be hauled out. The effect on the overall value of produce from the north and north-east of Scotland, as well as the rest of Scotland, is quite excessive, running into enormous amounts of money that we have simply not been able to find. That is why our industry no longer makes a profit. I want to address one or two of the issues that Ross Finnie raised. I join him in saying that the disaster of the cull ewe scheme will be felt throughout the Highlands and Islands as well as in the lowland areas where sheep are produced. Hopes have been dashed as a result of that scheme failing to come to fruition. We must remember that the scheme was important for more than simply economic reasons. There were sound welfare and environmental reasons why the scheme should have been approved. The failure of the European Union to give permission for the scheme to go ahead is a disaster that will be felt in every corner of rural Scotland. Perhaps that is a lesson to us in how we should deal with Agenda 2000 and the reforms that it will bring to Scottish farming. We must look carefully at how we implement European regulation. Too often in the past we have accused our own Government of gold-plating European regulation. We now have an ideal opportunity to consider a more constructive and positive way of interpreting European regulation in future, so that we can at last have the level playing field that we have been promised. However, there is something that we can do and it is something that we need to do fairly quickly: we must pursue the opportunity to give fair competition to our producers. Representatives of the pig industry, for example, have been asking for a considerable period for the opportunity to have all meat products produced in the United Kingdom, and particularly in Scotland, labelled with their country of origin. I have already submitted a written question on that subject, but it may not yet have come to the attention of the relevant ministers, so I shall raise it again today. I suggest that not only may it be within the powers of this Parliament to demand that such labelling be introduced, but it may be within existing powers to demand the introduction of such labelling. It has been suggested to me that the powers of the Food Safety Act 1990 may allow ministers to ask for such labelling to be introduced. If that is the case, I ask that action be taken urgently to ensure that our pig producers have the opportunity to have their product out there in the market, identified as home-produced, so that they can reap the benefits of the investment that they have made. If the ministerial interpretation of that regulation is not as it has been described to me, it is important that action be taken as early as possible so that that opportunity can be taken and our pig farmers can be protected from unfair foreign competition. I move, as an amendment to motion S1M-185, in the name of Ross Finnie, to leave out from \"and\" to end and insert: \"but, recognising the unprecedented crisis facing our Scottish farmers, calls for additional steps to be taken to reverse the continuing decline in the economic fortunes of Scottish agriculture.\"", "EditedTextHTML": "I have to say that I am not endorsing the call, heard occasionally from certain parties in Scotland, to join the single currency. The problems associated with the high value of sterling and high interest rates have been created to a significant extent by policies driven by the current Chancellor of the Exchequer in his desperate attempt to get our economy into line with that of Europe, so that ultimately he can join that single currency. If he took a broader view, considered the economic situation in this country and acted in such a way as to follow the needs of the farming industry rather than the needs of his own long- term economic aim, we would not be in the position in which we find ourselves today.

I endorse the view, expressed earlier by Alasdair Morgan, that transport costs are a major part of the problem faced by the industry. A farmer in the north or north-east of Scotland is almost 600 miles from the main market of Europe. Raw materials have to be hauled in over that distance and products have to be hauled out. The effect on the overall value of produce from the north and north-east of Scotland, as well as the rest of Scotland, is quite excessive, running into enormous amounts of money that we have simply not been able to find. That is why our industry no longer makes a profit.

I want to address one or two of the issues that Ross Finnie raised. I join him in saying that the disaster of the cull ewe scheme will be felt throughout the Highlands and Islands as well as in the lowland areas where sheep are produced. Hopes have been dashed as a result of that scheme failing to come to fruition. We must remember that the scheme was important for more than simply economic reasons. There were sound welfare and environmental reasons why the scheme should have been approved. The failure of the European Union to give permission for the scheme to go ahead is a disaster that will be felt in every corner of rural Scotland.

Perhaps that is a lesson to us in how we should deal with Agenda 2000 and the reforms that it will bring to Scottish farming. We must look carefully at how we implement European regulation. Too often in the past we have accused our own Government of gold-plating European regulation. We now have an ideal opportunity to consider a more constructive and positive way of interpreting European regulation in future, so that we can at last have the level playing field that we have been promised.

However, there is something that we can do and it is something that we need to do fairly quickly: we must pursue the opportunity to give fair competition to our producers. Representatives of the pig industry, for example, have been asking for a considerable period for the opportunity to have all meat products produced in the United Kingdom,

and particularly in Scotland, labelled with their country of origin. I have already submitted a written question on that subject, but it may not yet have come to the attention of the relevant ministers, so I shall raise it again today.

I suggest that not only may it be within the powers of this Parliament to demand that such labelling be introduced, but it may be within existing powers to demand the introduction of such labelling. It has been suggested to me that the powers of the Food Safety Act 1990 may allow ministers to ask for such labelling to be introduced. If that is the case, I ask that action be taken urgently to ensure that our pig producers have the opportunity to have their product out there in the market, identified as home-produced, so that they can reap the benefits of the investment that they have made. If the ministerial interpretation of that regulation is not as it has been described to me, it is important that action be taken as early as possible so that that opportunity can be taken and our pig farmers can be protected from unfair foreign competition.

I move, as an amendment to motion S1M-185, in the name of Ross Finnie, to leave out from \"and\" to end and insert:

\"but, recognising the unprecedented crisis facing our Scottish farmers, calls for additional steps to be taken to reverse the continuing decline in the economic fortunes of Scottish agriculture.\"

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6233244+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1888E265P358C709736", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture (Agenda 2000)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26939, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 779.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 779.0, "ID": 26939, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morgan, Alasdair", "ID": 1888, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Galloway and Upper Nithsdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morgan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alasdair Morgan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 820.0, "ContributionID": 709736, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1768E72P274C709742", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture (Agenda 2000)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26939, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 779.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 779.0, "ID": 26939, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Murray, Elaine", "ID": 1768, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumfries" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Murray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Murray: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 835.0, "ContributionID": 709742, "EditedText": "No, I must press on as I do not have much time. I was encouraged by the statement that the chief medical officer made this week to the Rural Affairs Committee. The development of new tests for the infective agent in BSE will allow us to determine cow-to-cow transmission of the disease more accurately. The tests will also enable speedier detection of the presence of the agent in animal tissue and improve the confidence that we can have in future that the disease has been eliminated from our cattle herds. They should also indicate whether BSE is present in the sheep population. A clean bill of health for both species must improve our export prospects. Confidence will need to be accompanied by an aggressive marketing strategy, both overseas and in this country. The Executive has recognised that by appointing a sheep study group and by supporting the Scottish Enterprise food strategy. The minister mentioned the general consensus about the need for medium and longer-term strategies, but—as he says—those will not be quickly or easily implemented. Scottish farmers often articulate the complaint that the restrictions are much more strictly enforced here than in other European Union countries and that their European competitors have an advantage over them as a result. Where that is the case—and many of us believe it to be so—the aim must be to level up the standards in the rest of Europe to those in the UK. In the meantime, our higher standards should be used as a marketing tool, particularly at home in Scotland. We in Britain like to think of ourselves as a nation that places a lot of emphasis on animal welfare. A number of bills on animal welfare issues are currently being considered. Despite being a carnivore—I apologise to any vegetarian colleagues who happen to be present—I, too, regard animal welfare as important. I was, therefore, shocked to learn that many other European countries still use stall and tether methods. I have a photograph from the pig industry around somewhere; other members may also have received information. I found it shocking that pigs were being farmed in such atrocious conditions and being placed in small stalls for about three and a half months during pregnancy. I do not think that most Scottish consumers of pork have any idea that pork is being produced under such conditions in parts of Europe. We should make that point strongly—I see that Mr Johnstone has the picture of the pigs. That is why initiatives such as the Scottish pig industry initiative quality mark for Scottish pork are important. Higher standards in production and animal welfare equate to higher-quality products. We must get that message over to our home markets. On the odd occasions that I do the shopping—and they are very odd occasions—I check that I am buying Scottish meat. We should encourage other people in Scotland, when they go to the supermarket and the butcher, to do what the NFUS has suggested and ask whether the meat is Scottish. If we believe in our products at home, we will have a better chance of selling them abroad.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I must press on as I do not have much time.

I was encouraged by the statement that the chief medical officer made this week to the Rural Affairs Committee. The development of new tests for the infective agent in BSE will allow us to determine cow-to-cow transmission of the disease more accurately. The tests will also enable speedier detection of the presence of the agent in animal tissue and improve the confidence that we can have in future that the disease has been eliminated from our cattle herds. They should also indicate whether BSE is present in the sheep population. A clean bill of health for both species must improve our export prospects.

Confidence will need to be accompanied by an aggressive marketing strategy, both overseas and in this country. The Executive has recognised that by appointing a sheep study group and by supporting the Scottish Enterprise food strategy. The minister mentioned the general consensus about the need for medium and longer-term strategies, but—as he says—those will not be quickly or easily implemented.

Scottish farmers often articulate the complaint that the restrictions are much more strictly enforced here than in other European Union countries and that their European competitors have an advantage over them as a result. Where that is the case—and many of us believe it to be so—the aim must be to level up the standards in the rest of Europe to those in the UK. In the meantime, our higher standards should be used as a marketing tool, particularly at home in Scotland.

We in Britain like to think of ourselves as a nation that places a lot of emphasis on animal welfare. A number of bills on animal welfare issues are currently being considered. Despite being a carnivore—I apologise to any vegetarian colleagues who happen to be present—I, too, regard animal welfare as important. I was, therefore, shocked to learn that many other European countries still use stall and tether methods. I have a photograph from the pig industry around somewhere; other members may also have received information. I found it shocking that pigs were being farmed in such atrocious conditions and being placed in small stalls for about three and a half months during pregnancy. I do not think that most Scottish consumers of pork have any idea that pork is being produced under such conditions in parts of Europe. We should make that point strongly—I see that Mr Johnstone has the picture of the pigs.

That is why initiatives such as the Scottish pig industry initiative quality mark for Scottish pork are important. Higher standards in production and animal welfare equate to higher-quality products. We must get that message over to our home markets. On the odd occasions that I do the shopping—and they are very odd occasions—I check that I am buying Scottish meat. We should encourage other people in Scotland, when they go to the supermarket and the butcher, to do what the NFUS has suggested and ask whether the meat is Scottish. If we believe in our products at home, we will have a better chance of selling them abroad.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2066E64P88C709746", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture (Agenda 2000)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26939, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 779.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 779.0, "ID": 26939, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McGrigor, Jamie", "ID": 2066, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie McGrigor", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McGrigor: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 844.0, "ContributionID": 709746, "EditedText": "Unfortunately, I was in the Highlands and Islands, dealing with people who were complaining about sheep prices. As a farmer in George Lyon's constituency, I ask him—I see that he is not here—why he cannot persuade the Executive to take the lead for once, especially as Scottish beef is one of our best exports and he promised before the election to support the lifting of the ban. I suppose that he will say that he is waiting for medical evidence, but what about the scandal whereby pig bones— which cannot be fed to pigs in Scotland—are exported, ground up and fed to pigs whose meat is sold in Scotland? So far, the Parliament has failed to protect the Highland hill farmers, who expected an improvement on Westminster. Although there are some factors over which we have little control, we should be able to produce a level playing field for Scottish agriculture. In last week's The Scottish Farmer magazine, a qualified vet called for an end to the ridiculous situation where inspectors turned up at his farm to inspect the inspectors who were inspecting him dipping his sheep. The new rules for slaughterhouses are cryptic. Why should we need qualified vets for hygiene inspections in abattoirs? The rest of Europe does not need them, so why do we? The Executive should push for a reduction in interest rates, which would reduce the value of sterling. It should cut the Meat Hygiene Service inspection charges and try to reduce the enormous veterinary costs to Scottish farmers and crofters. In the Highlands and Islands, farming and crofting still provide the basis of the social network of many communities. All that those communities ask is that the Parliament gives them a chance to continue to farm.", "EditedTextHTML": "Unfortunately, I was in the Highlands and Islands, dealing with people who were complaining about sheep prices.

As a farmer in George Lyon's constituency, I ask him—I see that he is not here—why he cannot persuade the Executive to take the lead for once, especially as Scottish beef is one of our best exports and he promised before the election to support the lifting of the ban. I suppose that he will say that he is waiting for medical evidence, but what about the scandal whereby pig bones— which cannot be fed to pigs in Scotland—are exported, ground up and fed to pigs whose meat is sold in Scotland?

So far, the Parliament has failed to protect the Highland hill farmers, who expected an improvement on Westminster. Although there are some factors over which we have little control, we should be able to produce a level playing field for Scottish agriculture.

In last week's The Scottish Farmer magazine, a qualified vet called for an end to the ridiculous situation where inspectors turned up at his farm to inspect the inspectors who were inspecting him dipping his sheep. The new rules for slaughterhouses are cryptic. Why should we need qualified vets for hygiene inspections in abattoirs? The rest of Europe does not need them, so why do we? The Executive should push for a reduction in interest rates, which would reduce the value of sterling. It should cut the Meat Hygiene Service inspection charges and try to reduce the enormous veterinary costs to Scottish farmers and crofters.

In the Highlands and Islands, farming and crofting still provide the basis of the social network of many communities. All that those communities ask is that the Parliament gives them a chance to continue to farm.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709763", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Standards Committee", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26940, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 880.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 880.0, "ID": 26940, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 882.0, "ContributionID": 709763, "EditedText": "That the Parliament agrees that Dr Richard Simpson be appointed to the Standards Committee.—Mr McCabe.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament agrees that Dr Richard Simpson be appointed to the Standards Committee.—[Mr McCabe.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709764", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Lead Committees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26941, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 883.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 883.0, "ID": 26941, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 884.0, "ContributionID": 709764, "EditedText": "Motion moved,", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion moved,

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C709750", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture (Agenda 2000)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26939, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 779.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 779.0, "ID": 26939, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Davidson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 854.0, "ContributionID": 709750, "EditedText": "I would rather not. Fergus was probably going to agree with me—bless him for that. Various comments have been made on commodity prices. I was surprised that nothing was said about the enormous threat hanging over Scottish farming from the fertiliser tax—the minister has influence on that with the Cabinet down south, through his Executive colleagues. I found it amazing that the fertiliser tax was not discussed today, as it is probably as crippling as, if not more crippling than, fuel costs, about which we have talked. I congratulate those members—particularly Dr Jackson—who have suggested that we should get a handle on the labelling of product. If European Union rules tell us that the only way in which we can discriminate is through the housewife's choice, we have to make it crystal clear to the housewife—", "EditedTextHTML": "I would rather not. Fergus was probably going to agree with me—bless him for that.

Various comments have been made on commodity prices. I was surprised that nothing was said about the enormous threat hanging over Scottish farming from the fertiliser tax—the minister has influence on that with the Cabinet down south, through his Executive colleagues. I found it amazing that the fertiliser tax was not discussed today, as it is probably as crippling as, if not more crippling than, fuel costs, about which we have talked.

I congratulate those members—particularly Dr Jackson—who have suggested that we should get a handle on the labelling of product. If European Union rules tell us that the only way in which we can discriminate is through the housewife's choice, we have to make it crystal clear to the housewife—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C709753", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture (Agenda 2000)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26939, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 779.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 779.0, "ID": 26939, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 860.0, "ContributionID": 709753, "EditedText": "Please wind up.", "EditedTextHTML": "Please wind up.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C709754", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture (Agenda 2000)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26939, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 779.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 779.0, "ID": 26939, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Davidson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 862.0, "ContributionID": 709754, "EditedText": "I will use the few seconds that I have left to say that red tape is smothering Scottish agriculture, horticulture and even business—I do not doubt that Fergus would agree with me on that. It is important that we use what means we can to simplify the implementation of any common agricultural policy reform. We must ensure that, if there is modulation—in which there will be winners and losers—the small to medium- sized family farm, which is the basis of Scottish agriculture, does not come out as a loser. My colleague Mr Johnstone has lodged a positive amendment. The Conservatives will happily work with anyone to benefit Scottish agriculture. We think that the motion is meaningless. The SNP amendment has merit, but it does little more than suggest \"possibly, perhaps\". We are asking for positive action.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will use the few seconds that I have left to say that red tape is smothering Scottish agriculture, horticulture and even business—I do not doubt that Fergus would agree with me on that. It is important that we use what means we can to simplify the implementation of any common agricultural policy reform. We must ensure that, if there is modulation—in which there will be winners and losers—the small to medium- sized family farm, which is the basis of Scottish agriculture, does not come out as a loser.

My colleague Mr Johnstone has lodged a positive amendment. The Conservatives will happily work with anyone to benefit Scottish agriculture. We think that the motion is meaningless. The SNP amendment has merit, but it does little more than suggest \"possibly, perhaps\". We are asking for positive action.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C709757", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture (Agenda 2000)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26939, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 779.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 779.0, "ID": 26939, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ross Finnie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 870.0, "ContributionID": 709757, "EditedText": "I share with many members the wish that we could discuss agriculture for longer. I am now such a convert to the industry that I would have liked to have a whole day to discuss what are serious issues. In no way do I diminish the seriousness of the situation. However, we have to be a little careful not to talk the industry down. Some remarks were made during the debate about the beef sector. I am not suggesting for a minute that the beef sector has recovered, but of all the sectors, the beef sector has done a remarkable job, both in its pricing and in penetrating the English markets in the past nine months. I hope that that will be fully supported by the SNP. The sector has done that job at a premium, and there are very few people who gain shares in a market at a premium. Alasdair Morgan asked questions on matters that are, by and large, out of the hands of the Scottish Executive—fuel costs, sterling interest rates and banking. Those points were also raised by several other contributors. The Scottish Executive is cognisant of the problem concerning the absolute cost of fuel. All Scottish Executive ministers are involved in discussions as to how we should present our case to the Chancellor of the Exchequer at Westminster. We have yet to come to a conclusion, but it would be wrong to suggest that we are not cognisant of the problem. I can assure Andrew Welsh and others that I intend to continue the dialogue that I have already opened with the banks, because I am concerned that they might take a wrong turn. In response to the point made about the common agricultural policy dwarfing structural funds, I say to Alasdair Morgan that my position is clear: we have an opportunity to accept the existing settlement as a given, and I intend to engage with the industry to ensure that we formulate a strategy that will put us where we want to be in 2005-06. That strategy should be developed in Scotland, and we should be taking our case to Europe on behalf of Scottish farmers.", "EditedTextHTML": "I share with many members the wish that we could discuss agriculture for longer. I am now such a convert to the industry that I would have liked to have a whole day to discuss what are serious issues. In no way do I diminish the seriousness of the situation.

However, we have to be a little careful not to talk the industry down. Some remarks were made during the debate about the beef sector. I am not suggesting for a minute that the beef sector has recovered, but of all the sectors, the beef sector has done a remarkable job, both in its pricing and in penetrating the English markets in the past nine months. I hope that that will be fully supported by the SNP. The sector has done that job at a premium, and there are very few people who gain shares in a market at a premium.

Alasdair Morgan asked questions on matters that are, by and large, out of the hands of the Scottish Executive—fuel costs, sterling interest rates and banking. Those points were also raised by several other contributors.

The Scottish Executive is cognisant of the problem concerning the absolute cost of fuel. All Scottish Executive ministers are involved in discussions as to how we should present our case to the Chancellor of the Exchequer at Westminster. We have yet to come to a conclusion, but it would be wrong to suggest that we are not cognisant of the problem.

I can assure Andrew Welsh and others that I intend to continue the dialogue that I have already opened with the banks, because I am concerned that they might take a wrong turn.

In response to the point made about the common agricultural policy dwarfing structural funds, I say to Alasdair Morgan that my position is clear: we have an opportunity to accept the existing settlement as a given, and I intend to engage with the industry to ensure that we formulate a strategy that will put us where we want to be in 2005-06. That strategy should be developed in Scotland, and we should be taking our case to Europe on behalf of Scottish farmers.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C709759", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture (Agenda 2000)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26939, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 779.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 779.0, "ID": 26939, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ross Finnie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 874.0, "ContributionID": 709759, "EditedText": "Even if that is the case, we in Scotland should be looking at the longer term. If that involves our having to renegotiate, that should take place here in Scotland. I do not agree that we should put reforms to the CAP solely in the hands of the Westminster Government. We in Scotland should be making our distinctive contribution to the way in which that matter is resolved. We should be preparing now for 2005-06. I am enormously grateful for Alex Johnstone's warm endorsement, although I realised that there had to be a sting in the tail. Nevertheless, I thank him for his contribution to the Rural Affairs Committee. No doubt we will clash at some future date. He went through a litany of things that were not done, but he did not question the methodology of what the Executive is now seeking to do, namely, to take a far longer-term view of what is required for Scottish agriculture. It would be stupid and foolish of me to look for congratulations on things that we have not done, but I am looking for support for our new way of tackling the problems of the industry. That is why I picked up on the sheep sector in particular. It is nonsense to blame the farmers for the guddle, but what is absolutely true is that there is no mechanism at present that allows us to consider the chain from the sheep farmer out to the ultimate consumer and to produce a strategy that is relevant to their needs. I welcome Irene McGugan's comments about organic aid, although I have managed to drop them on the floor. Interruption.", "EditedTextHTML": "Even if that is the case, we in Scotland should be looking at the longer term. If that involves our having to renegotiate, that should take place here in Scotland. I do not agree that we should put reforms to the CAP solely in the hands of the Westminster Government. We in Scotland should be making our distinctive contribution to the way in which that matter is resolved. We should be preparing now for 2005-06.

I am enormously grateful for Alex Johnstone's warm endorsement, although I realised that there had to be a sting in the tail. Nevertheless, I thank him for his contribution to the Rural Affairs Committee. No doubt we will clash at some future date. He went through a litany of things that were not done, but he did not question the methodology of what the Executive is now seeking to do, namely, to take a far longer-term view of what is required for Scottish agriculture.

It would be stupid and foolish of me to look for congratulations on things that we have not done, but I am looking for support for our new way of tackling the problems of the industry. That is why I picked up on the sheep sector in particular. It is nonsense to blame the farmers for the guddle, but what is absolutely true is that there is no mechanism at present that allows us to consider the chain from the sheep farmer out to the ultimate consumer and to produce a strategy that is relevant to their needs.

I welcome Irene McGugan's comments about organic aid, although I have managed to drop them on the floor. [Interruption.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C709761", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture (Agenda 2000)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26939, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 779.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 779.0, "ID": 26939, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ross Finnie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 878.0, "ContributionID": 709761, "EditedText": "Thank you very much indeed.I welcome Irene McGugan's comments about such issues as costs to the environment and cross-compliance. In finalising arrangements, I intend to invoke cross-compliance to achieve the correct balance between the agri-environment and the interests of farmers. As for the rural stewardship fund, one of my biggest disappointments is that the rural agenda has been so grotesquely underfunded. On the subject of GM organisms, Ms McGugan will welcome the fact that the Executive has adopted the same precautionary approach that underpins the way in which the European Union has applied its regulation on this matter. I am disappointed that the cull ewe scheme has not been implemented. However, we have to move forward. The help package will mean real money in the hands of hill farmers. I do not want to minimise the difficulties of Scottish farmers and I am greatly encouraged by the comments that I have heard today. Farming is crucial to the health of rural areas and I assure members that the Scottish Executive will continue to do what it can to secure the agriculture industry's healthy, profitable future. I hope that members will support the motion and reject both amendments.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you very much indeed.

I welcome Irene McGugan's comments about such issues as costs to the environment and cross-compliance. In finalising arrangements, I intend to invoke cross-compliance to achieve the correct balance between the agri-environment and the interests of farmers.

As for the rural stewardship fund, one of my biggest disappointments is that the rural agenda has been so grotesquely underfunded. On the subject of GM organisms, Ms McGugan will welcome the fact that the Executive has adopted the same precautionary approach that underpins the way in which the European Union has applied its regulation on this matter.

I am disappointed that the cull ewe scheme has not been implemented. However, we have to move forward. The help package will mean real money in the hands of hill farmers. I do not want to minimise the difficulties of Scottish farmers and I am greatly encouraged by the comments that I have heard today.

Farming is crucial to the health of rural areas and I assure members that the Scottish Executive will continue to do what it can to secure the agriculture industry's healthy, profitable future. I hope that members will support the motion and reject both amendments.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709770", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Amnesic Shellfish Poisoning", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26942, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 889.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 889.0, "ID": 26942, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 891.0, "ContributionID": 709770, "EditedText": "That the Parliament agrees that the following Orders be approved— the Food Protection (Emergency Prohibitions) (Amnesic Shellfish Poisoning) (West Coast) (No 3) (Scotland) Order 1999 (SSI 1999/71); the Food Protection (Emergency Prohibitions) (Amnesic Shellfish Poisoning) (East Coast) (No 2) (Scotland) Order 1999 (SSI 1999/72); and the Food Protection (Emergency Prohibitions) (Amnesic Shellfish Poisoning) (Orkney) (No 3) (Scotland) Order 1999 (SSI 1999/73).—Mr McCabe.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament agrees that the following Orders be approved— the Food Protection (Emergency Prohibitions) (Amnesic Shellfish Poisoning) (West Coast) (No 3) (Scotland) Order 1999 (SSI 1999/71); the Food Protection (Emergency Prohibitions) (Amnesic Shellfish Poisoning) (East Coast) (No 2) (Scotland) Order 1999 (SSI 1999/72); and the Food Protection (Emergency Prohibitions) (Amnesic Shellfish Poisoning) (Orkney) (No 3) (Scotland) Order 1999 (SSI 1999/73).—[Mr McCabe.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709772", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26943, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 892.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 892.0, "ID": 26943, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 895.0, "ContributionID": 709772, "EditedText": "Amendment agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709773", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26943, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 892.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 892.0, "ID": 26943, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 896.0, "ContributionID": 709773, "EditedText": "The next question is on the additional amendment, S1M-186.1.1, moved without notice by Mr Alex Neil during this morning's debate, which seeks to amend the amendment by inserting \"Cabinet of the\" after \"Scottish Ministers and the\". The question is, that amendment S1M-186.1.1 to amendment S1M-186.1, in the name of Mr Alex Neil, be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "The next question is on the additional amendment, S1M-186.1.1, moved without notice by Mr Alex Neil during this morning's debate, which seeks to amend the amendment by inserting \"Cabinet of the\" after \"Scottish Ministers and the\".

The question is, that amendment S1M-186.1.1 to amendment S1M-186.1, in the name of Mr Alex Neil, be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709775", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26943, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 892.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 892.0, "ID": 26943, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 899.0, "ContributionID": 709775, "EditedText": "The third question is, that amendment S1M-186.1, in the name of Mr John Swinney, as amended, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "The third question is, that amendment S1M-186.1, in the name of Mr John Swinney, as amended, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709777", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26943, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 892.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 892.0, "ID": 26943, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 903.0, "ContributionID": 709777, "EditedText": "In that case, there will be a division. Those members who wish to support Mr Swinney's amendment, please press yes.", "EditedTextHTML": "In that case, there will be a division. Those members who wish to support Mr Swinney's amendment, please press yes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709779", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26943, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 892.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 892.0, "ID": 26943, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 906.0, "ContributionID": 709779, "EditedText": "The result of the division is as follows: For 31, Against 76, Abstentions 0.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result of the division is as follows: For 31, Against 76, Abstentions 0.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709780", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26943, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 892.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 892.0, "ID": 26943, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 908.0, "ContributionID": 709780, "EditedText": "Amendment disagreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment disagreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709782", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26943, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 892.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 892.0, "ID": 26943, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 911.0, "ContributionID": 709782, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709783", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26943, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 892.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 892.0, "ID": 26943, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 913.0, "ContributionID": 709783, "EditedText": "There will be a division. Those members who wish to vote for the motion, please press yes.", "EditedTextHTML": "There will be a division. Those members who wish to vote for the motion, please press yes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709785", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26943, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 892.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 892.0, "ID": 26943, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 916.0, "ContributionID": 709785, "EditedText": "The result of the division is as follows: For 75, Against 32, Abstentions 0.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result of the division is as follows: For 75, Against 32, Abstentions 0.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709787", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26943, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 892.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 892.0, "ID": 26943, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 919.0, "ContributionID": 709787, "EditedText": "That the Parliament endorses the Memorandum of Understanding and supplementary agreements concluded between the United Kingdom Government, Scottish Ministers and the Cabinet of the National Assembly for Wales.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament endorses the Memorandum of Understanding and supplementary agreements concluded between the United Kingdom Government, Scottish Ministers and the Cabinet of the National Assembly for Wales.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709789", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26943, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 892.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 892.0, "ID": 26943, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 922.0, "ContributionID": 709789, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709791", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26943, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 892.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 892.0, "ID": 26943, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 926.0, "ContributionID": 709791, "EditedText": "FOR Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)AGAINST Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)(LD)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)ABSTENTIONHarper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)

AGAINST

Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)
(LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)

ABSTENTION

Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709795", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26943, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 892.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 892.0, "ID": 26943, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 932.0, "ContributionID": 709795, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709800", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26943, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 892.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 892.0, "ID": 26943, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 940.0, "ContributionID": 709800, "EditedText": "The seventh question is,that motion S1M-185, in the name of Ross Finnie, on Agenda 2000 and the development of agriculture in Scotland, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "The seventh question is,

that motion S1M-185, in the name of Ross Finnie, on Agenda 2000 and the development of agriculture in Scotland, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709802", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26943, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 892.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 892.0, "ID": 26943, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 944.0, "ContributionID": 709802, "EditedText": "There will be a division.", "EditedTextHTML": "There will be a division.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709803", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26943, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 892.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 892.0, "ID": 26943, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 946.0, "ContributionID": 709803, "EditedText": "FOR Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)(LD)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)AGAINST Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP) ABSTENTIONS Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)
(LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)

AGAINST

Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)

ABSTENTIONS

Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709805", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26943, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 892.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 892.0, "ID": 26943, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 949.0, "ContributionID": 709805, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709810", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26943, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 892.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 892.0, "ID": 26943, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 955.0, "ContributionID": 709810, "EditedText": "The ninth question is that motion S1M-194, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, on the designation of lead committees, be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "The ninth question is that motion S1M-194, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, on the designation of lead committees, be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709811", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26943, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 892.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 892.0, "ID": 26943, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 957.0, "ContributionID": 709811, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709812", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26943, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 892.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 892.0, "ID": 26943, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 958.0, "ContributionID": 709812, "EditedText": "That the Parliament agrees the following designations of lead committees—", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament agrees the following designations of lead committees—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709813", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26943, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 892.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 892.0, "ID": 26943, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 959.0, "ContributionID": 709813, "EditedText": "The Justice and Home Affairs Committee to consider the Abolition of Poindings and Warrant Sales Bill;", "EditedTextHTML": "The Justice and Home Affairs Committee to consider the Abolition of Poindings and Warrant Sales Bill;

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709814", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26943, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 892.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 892.0, "ID": 26943, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 960.0, "ContributionID": 709814, "EditedText": "The Finance Committee to consider Part 1 of Stage 2 of the Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill;", "EditedTextHTML": "The Finance Committee to consider Part 1 of Stage 2 of the Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill;

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709818", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26943, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 892.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 892.0, "ID": 26943, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 965.0, "ContributionID": 709818, "EditedText": "That the Parliament agrees that the following Orders be approved— the Food Protection (Emergency Prohibitions) (Amnesic Shellfish Poisoning) (West Coast) (No 3) (Scotland) Order 1999 (SSI 1999/71); the Food Protection (Emergency Prohibitions) (Amnesic Shellfish Poisoning) (East Coast) (No 2) (Scotland) Order 1999 (SSI 1999/72); and the Food Protection (Emergency Prohibitions) (Amnesic Shellfish Poisoning) (Orkney) (No 3) (Scotland) Order 1999 (SSI 1999/73).", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament agrees that the following Orders be approved— the Food Protection (Emergency Prohibitions) (Amnesic Shellfish Poisoning) (West Coast) (No 3) (Scotland) Order 1999 (SSI 1999/71); the Food Protection (Emergency Prohibitions) (Amnesic Shellfish Poisoning) (East Coast) (No 2) (Scotland) Order 1999 (SSI 1999/72); and the Food Protection (Emergency Prohibitions) (Amnesic Shellfish Poisoning) (Orkney) (No 3) (Scotland) Order 1999 (SSI 1999/73).

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2185E120P328C709825", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Organisations", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26944, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 966.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 966.0, "ID": 26944, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Brown, Robert", "ID": 2185, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robert Brown", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robert Brown (Glasgow) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 978.0, "ContributionID": 709825, "EditedText": "On a point of order, Presiding Officer. Could you ask the speaker to address himself to the motion, not to such side issues? This is a members' business debate. We are entitled to hear about the issues, not the background grudges that Mr Wilson appears to harbour.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order, Presiding Officer. Could you ask the speaker to address himself to the motion, not to such side issues? This is a members' business debate. We are entitled to hear about the issues, not the background grudges that Mr Wilson appears to harbour.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C709827", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Organisations", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26944, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 966.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 966.0, "ID": 26944, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 982.0, "ContributionID": 709827, "EditedText": "We live in a cynical age. One of our country's greatest strengths is that our society is full of people who give time and energy to the service of others. I am delighted to welcome to the public gallery today people representing literally hundreds of thousands of volunteers from voluntary organisations across Scotland, including the Boys Brigade, the Girls Brigade, the Scout Association, the Guide Association, Volunteer Development Scotland, the Scottish Council for Voluntary Organisations, Children 1st, Youthlink Scotland, Fairbridge in Scotland, the Scottish Out of School Care Network, the Scottish Churches committee and Greenhills drop-in centre and Greenhills 2000 from East Kilbride. Many other organisations supported the motion by e-mail, by telephone and by writing to my office and to those of my colleagues Lloyd Quinan and Fiona McLeod. I thank everyone for their support and advice. The Executive has at last agreed with us that there is wide-ranging, deep and heartfelt support for the proposal. My colleagues and I wrote to the Executive in advance of today's debate as a courtesy, so that Jackie Baillie, the minister with responsibility for the voluntary sector, would be aware of exactly what we were asking for and would be able to respond in her summation. Members should have a copy of that letter. The Executive, however, appears to have abused the courtesy in an utterly graceless manner. Moving on to the detail of the motion, I will repeat points that have been well made in other debates on voluntary organisations in the chamber. For example, research from Volunteer Development Scotland shows that over 50 per cent of our country's adult population undertakes voluntary work of some sort, which, as I understand it, is the highest incidence of giving and volunteering in the UK—the highest contribution is in Scotland. Voluntary work is an activity that contributes 10 million hours per week to the Scottish economy, which is a wonderful tribute to the people involved. People give and ask nothing in return and we should reward them, rather than place financial burdens upon them. If I may be self-indulgent, Presiding Officer, I had years of free time from officers in my Boys Brigade company and from Duke of Edinburgh award scheme volunteers during my youth in Wishaw in Lanarkshire. I am a product of their good work, which is probably a bad advertisement for them. I am absolutely certain that, without the help and the developmental advice that I received from those people, I would not be enjoying the life choices that I have today and, certainly, I would not be standing here today. It is understandable that the Scottish Criminal Records Office checks were introduced—by part V of the Police Act 1997—to advance the protection of children. I do not think that any of us would dispute that. However, the key question that the Executive should address—sooner, rather than later—is why individuals and organisations working without profit and in the public interest should have to foot the bill for Government legislation. Why should a key group of people, who give so much to the inclusiveness of society, have to pay for a service that is provided free of charge to other public agencies? For example, the Boys Brigade—which is dear to my heart—has 11 full-time, paid staff and nearly 6,000 volunteers. The Scout Association—another wonderful youth organisation—has 17 full-time staff and nearly 8,000 unpaid volunteers. The Scottish Childminding Association has 6,500 members, most of whom are low paid. We know that the checks are not mandatory from an answer to one of the many parliamentary questions that have been asked on the matter. The key point is that, although the checks are not mandatory, the costs still apply to voluntary organisations. We need clarity on that issue. As Jim Duffy of the Scout Association, who I believe is with us today, said: \"There is absolutely no statutory requirement, but the very fact that there is a system in place puts the onus onto us to use it.\"", "EditedTextHTML": "We live in a cynical age. One of our country's greatest strengths is that our society is full of people who give time and energy to the service of others. I am delighted to welcome to the public gallery today people representing literally hundreds of thousands of volunteers from voluntary organisations across Scotland, including the Boys Brigade, the Girls Brigade, the Scout Association, the Guide Association, Volunteer Development Scotland, the Scottish Council for Voluntary Organisations, Children 1st, Youthlink Scotland, Fairbridge in Scotland, the Scottish Out of School Care Network, the Scottish Churches committee and Greenhills drop-in centre and Greenhills 2000 from East Kilbride.

Many other organisations supported the motion by e-mail, by telephone and by writing to my office and to those of my colleagues Lloyd Quinan and Fiona McLeod. I thank everyone for their support and advice.

The Executive has at last agreed with us that there is wide-ranging, deep and heartfelt support for the proposal. My colleagues and I wrote to the Executive in advance of today's debate as a courtesy, so that Jackie Baillie, the minister with responsibility for the voluntary sector, would be aware of exactly what we were asking for and would be able to respond in her summation. Members should have a copy of that letter. The Executive, however, appears to have abused the courtesy in an utterly graceless manner.

Moving on to the detail of the motion, I will repeat points that have been well made in other debates on voluntary organisations in the chamber. For example, research from Volunteer Development Scotland shows that over 50 per cent of our country's adult population undertakes voluntary work of some sort, which, as I understand it, is the highest incidence of giving and volunteering in the UK—the highest contribution is in Scotland. Voluntary work is an activity that contributes 10 million hours per week to the Scottish economy, which is a wonderful tribute to the people involved. People give and ask nothing in return and we should reward them, rather than place financial burdens upon them.

If I may be self-indulgent, Presiding Officer, I had years of free time from officers in my Boys Brigade company and from Duke of Edinburgh award scheme volunteers during my youth in

Wishaw in Lanarkshire. I am a product of their good work, which is probably a bad advertisement for them. I am absolutely certain that, without the help and the developmental advice that I received from those people, I would not be enjoying the life choices that I have today and, certainly, I would not be standing here today.

It is understandable that the Scottish Criminal Records Office checks were introduced—by part V of the Police Act 1997—to advance the protection of children. I do not think that any of us would dispute that. However, the key question that the Executive should address—sooner, rather than later—is why individuals and organisations working without profit and in the public interest should have to foot the bill for Government legislation. Why should a key group of people, who give so much to the inclusiveness of society, have to pay for a service that is provided free of charge to other public agencies? For example, the Boys Brigade—which is dear to my heart—has 11 full-time, paid staff and nearly 6,000 volunteers. The Scout Association—another wonderful youth organisation—has 17 full-time staff and nearly 8,000 unpaid volunteers. The Scottish Childminding Association has 6,500 members, most of whom are low paid.

We know that the checks are not mandatory from an answer to one of the many parliamentary questions that have been asked on the matter. The key point is that, although the checks are not mandatory, the costs still apply to voluntary organisations. We need clarity on that issue. As Jim Duffy of the Scout Association, who I believe is with us today, said:

\"There is absolutely no statutory requirement, but the very fact that there is a system in place puts the onus onto us to use it.\"

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C709835", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Organisations", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26944, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 966.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 966.0, "ID": 26944, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 998.0, "ContributionID": 709835, "EditedText": "According to parliamentary answers, the Government has had the position under review for three months. There is no need to announce another review to review a previous review. The issues are pretty clear—the voluntary organisations have made their representations to us and to the Executive. A review is a classic stalling mechanism; anyone who knows anything about government and the civil service knows that that is the case. We have had the same experience with tuition fees. The Government could come to a decision on the basis of what it has been elected to do—to govern. We need a decision today, not a review. I appeal to the minister for a clear, straightforward message.", "EditedTextHTML": "According to parliamentary answers, the Government has had the position under review for three months. There is no need to announce another review to review a previous review. The issues are pretty clear—the voluntary organisations have made their representations to us and to the Executive. A review is a classic stalling mechanism; anyone who knows anything about government and the civil service knows that that is the case. We have had the same experience with tuition fees. The Government could come to a decision on the basis of what it has been elected to do—to govern. We need a decision today, not a review.

I appeal to the minister for a clear, straightforward message.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C709837", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Organisations", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26944, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 966.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 966.0, "ID": 26944, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1002.0, "ContributionID": 709837, "EditedText": "It is a matter for regret that the Executive has shown a complete lack of respect for all the procedures and formalities of this Parliament. Mr Keith Raffan (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)rose—", "EditedTextHTML": "It is a matter for regret that the Executive has shown a complete lack of respect for all the procedures and formalities of this Parliament.

Mr Keith Raffan (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)

rose—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1751E163P286C709839", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Organisations", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26944, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 966.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 966.0, "ID": 26944, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Craigie, Cathie", "ID": 1751, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Cumbernauld and Kilsyth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Cathie Craigie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Cathie Craigie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1006.0, "ContributionID": 709839, "EditedText": "Mr Wilson acknowledges that the Executive has made it known for some time that this was a matter for review, so does he agree that he is playing politics with the voluntary sector, using this set-piece debate and interventions? Does he further agree that the Executive and the minister are dealing with the matter responsibly, by consulting the voluntary sector?", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Wilson acknowledges that the Executive has made it known for some time that this was a matter for review, so does he agree that he is playing politics with the voluntary sector, using this set-piece debate and interventions? Does he further agree that the Executive and the minister are dealing with the matter responsibly, by consulting the voluntary sector?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709841", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Organisations", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26944, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 966.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 966.0, "ID": 26944, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1010.0, "ContributionID": 709841, "EditedText": "Members' debates belong to the member raising the subject and to the minister who replies at the end. I am afraid that only six minutes are available for everybody else who wishes to speak. That would allow 30 seconds apiece. There is no chance that that will happen, so I will call those who have not intervened so far, beginning with Karen Whitefield.", "EditedTextHTML": "Members' debates belong to the member raising the subject and to the minister who replies at the end. I am afraid that only six minutes are available for everybody else who wishes to speak. That would allow 30 seconds apiece. There is no chance that that will happen, so I will call those who have not intervened so far, beginning with Karen Whitefield.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1805E13P109C709842", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Organisations", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26944, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 966.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 966.0, "ID": 26944, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Whitefield, Karen", "ID": 1805, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Airdrie and Shotts" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Karen Whitefield", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Karen Whitefield (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1013.0, "ContributionID": 709842, "EditedText": "As a former officer of the Girls Brigade, I know what the issue means to the voluntary sector, and to uniformed organisations in particular. I welcome the opportunity to be involved in what I had hoped would be a constructive debate. I share the concerns expressed by the voluntary sector about the financial impact of carrying out criminal record checks on volunteers. While I regret that such checks are necessary, we must put the safety of our children first. I am sure that we all hope that the adults who volunteer to work with our children do so for the right reasons, and it is important to recognise that the overwhelming majority does. Sadly, however, a minority of people use youth organisations to gain access to young people for more sinister purposes. We have a responsibility to do all we can to protect our children and young adults. I am sure that we, as a Parliament, will agree that the safety of our children is paramount. Having spoken to many representatives of the voluntary sector, I know that that is a shared priority. While I recognise the many and complex difficulties that the issue presents, I firmly believe that part V of the Police Act 1997 offers us an opportunity to enhance the security of our children and to provide greater assurances to parents. In short, it offers an opportunity to improve the services offered to our young people. Volunteers throughout Scotland enhance our lives and the lives of our young people immeasurably. Organisations such as the Girls Brigade and the scouts contribute greatly to Scotland's social cohesion. Between them those organisations have more than 10,000 officers and volunteers. They provide social, recreational and educational opportunities for some 49,000 young Scots. The confidence and skills that I gained as a member of the Girls Brigade played a significant part in my development into adulthood and played a small part in making sure that I stand here today. The issue of criminal record checks raises many questions. It is not a matter simply of money, as Mr Wilson makes out. I welcome today's review because other questions need to be answered. Will the voluntary sector be expected to backdate criminal record checks for existing volunteers? For how long will the certificates be valid? What will be the impact on transnational exchanges? Is there a need for a statutory entitlement to access SCRO checks? I ask the minister to review those questions, and I hope that she will address them in the review that she will chair. That review should be carried out in close consultation with all parts of the voluntary sector. We must also remember that criminal record checks are only one part of the equation; not all abusers have a criminal record. The importance of having a range of vetting procedures, including proper selection, training and supervision of volunteers, is already recognised by many parts of the voluntary sector, and should be encompassed in the minister's review. I am confident that a review would be able to address those problems constructively, not in a manner that involved snide political point scoring. I am also confident that the Parliament and the Executive are committed to achieving the same goal: enabling the provision of safe youth services for young people throughout Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "As a former officer of the Girls Brigade, I know what the issue means to the voluntary sector, and to uniformed organisations in particular.

I welcome the opportunity to be involved in what I had hoped would be a constructive debate. I share the concerns expressed by the voluntary sector about the financial impact of carrying out criminal record checks on volunteers. While I regret that such checks are necessary, we must put the safety of our children first. I am sure that we all hope that the adults who volunteer to work with our children do so for the right reasons, and it is important to recognise that the overwhelming majority does. Sadly, however, a minority of people use youth organisations to gain access to young people for more sinister purposes.

We have a responsibility to do all we can to protect our children and young adults. I am sure that we, as a Parliament, will agree that the safety of our children is paramount. Having spoken to many representatives of the voluntary sector, I know that that is a shared priority. While I recognise the many and complex difficulties that the issue presents, I firmly believe that part V of the Police Act 1997 offers us an opportunity to enhance the security of our children and to provide greater assurances to parents. In short, it offers an opportunity to improve the services offered to our young people.

Volunteers throughout Scotland enhance our lives and the lives of our young people immeasurably. Organisations such as the Girls Brigade and the scouts contribute greatly to Scotland's social cohesion. Between them those organisations have more than 10,000 officers and volunteers. They provide social, recreational and educational opportunities for some 49,000 young Scots. The confidence and skills that I gained as a member of the Girls Brigade played a significant part in my development into adulthood and played a small part in making sure that I stand here today.

The issue of criminal record checks raises many questions. It is not a matter simply of money, as Mr Wilson makes out. I welcome today's review because other questions need to be answered. Will the voluntary sector be expected to backdate criminal record checks for existing volunteers? For how long will the certificates be valid? What will be the impact on transnational exchanges? Is there a need for a statutory entitlement to access SCRO checks?

I ask the minister to review those questions, and I hope that she will address them in the review that she will chair. That review should be carried out in close consultation with all parts of the voluntary sector. We must also remember that criminal record checks are only one part of the equation; not all abusers have a criminal record. The importance of having a range of vetting procedures, including proper selection, training and supervision of volunteers, is already recognised by many parts of the voluntary sector, and should be encompassed in the minister's review.

I am confident that a review would be able to address those problems constructively, not in a manner that involved snide political point scoring. I am also confident that the Parliament and the Executive are committed to achieving the same goal: enabling the provision of safe youth services for young people throughout Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1769E16P282C709843", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Organisations", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26944, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 966.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 966.0, "ID": 26944, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Smith, Elaine", "ID": 1769, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Coatbridge and Chryston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Smith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Elaine Smith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1015.0, "ContributionID": 709843, "EditedText": "On a point of order, Presiding Officer. As members of the voluntary sector have turned up, would you consider a motion to extend the debate? That has happened in other debates.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order, Presiding Officer. As members of the voluntary sector have turned up, would you consider a motion to extend the debate? That has happened in other debates.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709846", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Organisations", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26944, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 966.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 966.0, "ID": 26944, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1021.0, "ContributionID": 709846, "EditedText": "The question is, that the motion be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "The question is, that the motion be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C709849", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Organisations", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26944, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 966.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 966.0, "ID": 26944, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Keith Raffan (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1028.0, "ContributionID": 709849, "EditedText": "I congratulate Mr Wilson on securing this debate and you, Presiding Officer, on agreeing to extend it. The credit for the review group should lie with the members of the voluntary sector in the public gallery; they are the ones who lobbied members of all political parties to obtain the review. I am glad that the Scottish Executive has shown sensitivity to their point of view, but the credit lies with them and with none of us. It is important to make that point in a non-partisan way to bring the debate to a higher level. I hope that the minister, in chairing the review, will take a more independent and more liberal line than the UK Government has shown so far, especially in view of the fact that at least 90,000 staff and volunteers could be affected. That could cost at least £900,000 in initial checks and £150,000 a year thereafter. That would be a tiny amount of public expenditure, but it would be a huge burden on the voluntary sector. Mr Boateng has said that \"free checks would prove an unsustainable burden on the public purse\".—Official Report, House of Commons, Written Answers, 30 March 1999; Vol 328, c 608-9. They would be far more easily sustained by the public purse than they would be by the voluntary sector, and it is crucial to understand that. We know the funding problems that the voluntary sector faces. I welcome the Scottish Executive's commitment to three-year funding, and I hope that Scottish local government will match it. Too many people in the voluntary sector are spending a lot of their time raising money rather than doing what they should be doing, what they are experienced in doing and what they were trained to do—their work as volunteers. They have to grub around for every penny to ensure that their organisation can survive. I want to ask the minister about voluntary agencies in the drugs field, about which I have a particular concern. Many of the most experienced, valued and valuable counsellors in the drugs field are addicts in recovery, some of whom have had a brush with the law before coming into recovery. It would be a great loss to the whole field if those people were prevented from continuing their work. I am particularly concerned about the third kind of certificate, the enhanced criminal record certificate. Following on from the point that Mr Davidson rightly raised, information from local police records, including non-conviction information, could be made available in that category of certificate. That sort of certificate applies particularly to people working with children but also to people working with vulnerable adults, so it could affect those who work in the drugs field. I would be grateful if the minister could respond to that specific point, because I am concerned that it could affect the many people who do much good work for agencies dealing with drug problems. Miss Goldie was right to mention at question time today that that is a matter for all-party concern, as was reflected at the first meeting of the all-party committee on drug misuse last night. We cannot afford to lose valuable people and the work that they do in the drugs field.", "EditedTextHTML": "I congratulate Mr Wilson on securing this debate and you, Presiding Officer, on agreeing to extend it. The credit for the review group should lie with the members of the voluntary sector in the public gallery; they are the ones who lobbied members of all political parties to obtain the review. I am glad that the Scottish Executive has shown sensitivity to their point of view, but the credit lies with them and with none of us. It is important to make that point in a non-partisan way to bring the debate to a higher level.

I hope that the minister, in chairing the review, will take a more independent and more liberal line than the UK Government has shown so far, especially in view of the fact that at least 90,000 staff and volunteers could be affected. That could cost at least £900,000 in initial checks and £150,000 a year thereafter. That would be a tiny amount of public expenditure, but it would be a huge burden on the voluntary sector. Mr Boateng has said that

\"free checks would prove an unsustainable burden on the public purse\".—[Official Report, House of Commons, Written Answers, 30 March 1999; Vol 328, c 608-9.]

They would be far more easily sustained by the public purse than they would be by the voluntary sector, and it is crucial to understand that.

We know the funding problems that the voluntary sector faces. I welcome the Scottish Executive's commitment to three-year funding, and I hope that Scottish local government will match it. Too many people in the voluntary sector are spending a lot of their time raising money rather than doing what they should be doing, what they are experienced in doing and what they were trained to do—their work as volunteers. They have to grub around for every penny to ensure that their organisation can survive.

I want to ask the minister about voluntary agencies in the drugs field, about which I have a particular concern. Many of the most experienced, valued and valuable counsellors in the drugs field are addicts in recovery, some of whom have had a brush with the law before coming into recovery. It would be a great loss to the whole field if those people were prevented from continuing their work.

I am particularly concerned about the third kind of certificate, the enhanced criminal record certificate. Following on from the point that Mr Davidson rightly raised, information from local police records, including non-conviction information, could be made available in that category of certificate. That sort of certificate applies particularly to people working with children but also to people working with vulnerable adults, so it could affect those who work in the drugs field.

I would be grateful if the minister could respond to that specific point, because I am concerned that it could affect the many people who do much good work for agencies dealing with drug problems. Miss Goldie was right to mention at question time today that that is a matter for all-party concern, as was reflected at the first meeting of the all-party committee on drug misuse last night. We cannot afford to lose valuable people and the work that they do in the drugs field.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1769E16P282C709850", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Organisations", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26944, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 966.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 966.0, "ID": 26944, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Smith, Elaine", "ID": 1769, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Coatbridge and Chryston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Smith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Elaine Smith (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1031.0, "ContributionID": 709850, "EditedText": "Thank you, Presiding Officer, for extending the debate. I thank Andrew Wilson for securing this debate and I pay tribute to the Executive and to Parliament for taking seriously the contribution that is made to society by volunteering and the voluntary sector. Having been a volunteers manager with Volunteer Development Scotland until last Christmas, I have a specific interest in contributing to the debate. I worked on an on-going pilot project called Volunteering in Practice, which was instigated to assess volunteering opportunities in general practitioners' practices, to encourage volunteer participation and to produce best practice guidelines. Prior to engaging any volunteers, the issues of confidentiality and unsupervised access to children were of paramount importance. It was difficult to know at the outset of the project whether SCRO checks could be accessed, and the only avenues seemed to be through health boards or local authorities. The question of possible costs was very much in our minds. We recognised the fact that SCRO checks did not have a fail-safe ability to deliver protection for children. The validity of the checks depends heavily on the information that is given by the individual in question. For example, failure to disclose a previous name or address could render a check invalid. Nor is it necessarily the case that all ex-offenders should be excluded from volunteering; their exclusion would depend on the type of offence they had committed and the type of volunteering they wanted to do. Voluntary organisations must implement best practice. To add to what Karen Whitefield said, the recruitment and selection process, including the taking up of references prior to engagement, on-going staff and volunteer training and established supervision systems are all vital in providing a safe environment and ensuring rapid detection of any person who poses a danger. The SCRO checks system cannot deliver guarantees on its own. Although the voluntary sector can have some relief in the knowledge that it can carry out checks, a number of concerns are posed. Interpreting information, assessing risk, securing indemnity insurance, its cost, the money required for the checks and whether the individual or the organisation pays, are all important issues. I welcome the proposed review. Guidance is needed on when such checks should be used. Further consultation with the voluntary sector is essential to ascertain what other options may be available and what can be done to overcome the problems with the checks.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you, Presiding Officer, for extending the debate. I thank Andrew Wilson for securing this debate and I pay tribute to the Executive and to Parliament for taking seriously the contribution that is made to society by volunteering and the voluntary sector.

Having been a volunteers manager with Volunteer Development Scotland until last Christmas, I have a specific interest in contributing to the debate. I worked on an on-going pilot project called Volunteering in Practice, which was instigated to assess volunteering opportunities in general practitioners' practices, to encourage volunteer participation and to produce best practice guidelines.

Prior to engaging any volunteers, the issues of confidentiality and unsupervised access to children were of paramount importance. It was difficult to know at the outset of the project whether SCRO checks could be accessed, and the only avenues seemed to be through health boards or local authorities. The question of possible costs was very much in our minds.

We recognised the fact that SCRO checks did not have a fail-safe ability to deliver protection for children. The validity of the checks depends heavily on the information that is given by the individual in question. For example, failure to disclose a previous name or address could render a check invalid. Nor is it necessarily the case that all ex-offenders should be excluded from volunteering; their exclusion would depend on the type of offence they had committed and the type of volunteering they wanted to do.

Voluntary organisations must implement best practice. To add to what Karen Whitefield said, the recruitment and selection process, including the taking up of references prior to engagement, on-going staff and volunteer training and established supervision systems are all vital in providing a safe environment and ensuring rapid detection of any person who poses a danger.

The SCRO checks system cannot deliver guarantees on its own. Although the voluntary sector can have some relief in the knowledge that it can carry out checks, a number of concerns are posed. Interpreting information, assessing risk, securing indemnity insurance, its cost, the money required for the checks and whether the individual or the organisation pays, are all important issues.

I welcome the proposed review. Guidance is needed on when such checks should be used. Further consultation with the voluntary sector is essential to ascertain what other options may be available and what can be done to overcome the problems with the checks.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1778E91P257C709856", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Organisations", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26944, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 966.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 966.0, "ID": 26944, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Eadie, Helen", "ID": 1778, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dunfermline East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Helen Eadie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Helen Eadie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1047.0, "ContributionID": 709856, "EditedText": "That is cheap political point scoring.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is cheap political point scoring.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.6389515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2180E179P471C709756", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Agriculture (Agenda 2000)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26939, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 779.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 779.0, "ID": 26939, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lochhead, Richard", "ID": 2180, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Lochhead", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Richard Lochhead (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 867.0, "ContributionID": 709756, "EditedText": "Thank you, Presiding Officer. I will try to be quick. I, too, welcome the debate on Scottish agriculture, given its importance to the economy and to Scotland as a whole. The word crisis is often so over-used that it loses its meaning, but in the current context of farming, crisis is the only word that we can use. The crisis affects every farmer in every sector, the length and breadth of Scotland. Yesterday, pig farmers visited the Parliament to make a presentation to MSPs—they are in the middle of a huge crisis. Many pig farmers have to sell the family silver, even their families' insurance policies, to survive the next few months. Anyone who read last week's Sunday Post will have seen an absolutely shocking picture relating to the crisis facing sheep farmers. The words underneath the picture say that it is \"a picture which should shock anyone who sees it.\"The picture is of a farmer shooting his own lambs, because that is the cheapest option open to him. That must be incredibly demoralising. It is an appalling state of affairs. The difficulties facing beef farmers have been outlined by many members. We all know that beef farmers are having to jump through hoops to get their beef back into the markets. A couple of weeks ago, a farmer sold his cattle at the auction mart for £5. After commission was deducted, he received a cheque for 1p; he is framing that cheque to remind him, in future years, of the current crisis. Livestock farmers face many common challenges. We want the Scottish Executive to tackle those challenges head on. The Scottish Executive can take vital measures, which depend on no more than assertiveness, determination and political will. The farmers are not looking for handouts; they are looking for a level playing field so that they can compete in international markets. They want less red tape and costly bureaucracy, which is an enormous burden on all sectors of industry. They want our loyalty—the loyalty of consumers to put Scottish produce in their shopping baskets. We want Ross Finnie to make representations on behalf of the industry with that determination and political will. We want him to bang on Gordon Brown's door, to speak to him about the fuel duty, to demand actions and to demand answers. The increase in the price of fuel hit six times over the cost of the journey that takes cattle from field to plate. It increases the costs of taking the cattle from the hill farmer to the mart, from the finisher to the farm, from the farm to the abattoir, from the abattoir to the central distribution point and from there to the supermarket, from where the consumer takes the meat home. Because of the fuel duty, the cost increases six times over—and the cost always lands with the primary producer. That must change. I must also mention interest rates, which have led to cheap imports and increasingly difficult export conditions for the industry. One farmer from Gordon told me that the most recent 0.25 per cent increase in interest rates cost him £5,000—with a stroke of a pen, Government policy cost that farmer £5,000. We want Ross Finnie to knock on the doors of all the banks to get their co-operation, too. As many speakers have said, we also want him to fly to France to speak to the French Government and to put the case for the Scottish farmers in person. We want the minister to get the supermarkets on board as well. Let us not forget the young farmers. For agriculture to survive in Scotland, we need young men and women to take over the farms. The young farmers are being put off farming. The farmer who lost £5,000 told me that his son had decided not to go into farming. That trend will be repeated across the country unless we address the challenges that face the industry. The Scottish National party demands that the minister do all that he can to face the challenges and to help the industry, so that Scottish agriculture can continue to make a vital contribution to the Scottish economy, to Scottish culture and to Scotland as a whole.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you, Presiding Officer. I will try to be quick.

I, too, welcome the debate on Scottish agriculture, given its importance to the economy and to Scotland as a whole. The word crisis is often so over-used that it loses its meaning, but in the current context of farming, crisis is the only word that we can use. The crisis affects every farmer in every sector, the length and breadth of Scotland.

Yesterday, pig farmers visited the Parliament to make a presentation to MSPs—they are in the middle of a huge crisis. Many pig farmers have to sell the family silver, even their families' insurance policies, to survive the next few months.

Anyone who read last week's Sunday Post will have seen an absolutely shocking picture relating to the crisis facing sheep farmers. The words underneath the picture say that it is

\"a picture which should shock anyone who sees it.\"

The picture is of a farmer shooting his own lambs, because that is the cheapest option open to him. That must be incredibly demoralising. It is an appalling state of affairs.

The difficulties facing beef farmers have been outlined by many members. We all know that beef farmers are having to jump through hoops to get their beef back into the markets. A couple of weeks ago, a farmer sold his cattle at the auction mart for £5. After commission was deducted, he received a cheque for 1p; he is framing that cheque to remind him, in future years, of the current crisis.

Livestock farmers face many common challenges. We want the Scottish Executive to tackle those challenges head on. The Scottish Executive can take vital measures, which depend on no more than assertiveness, determination and political will. The farmers are not looking for handouts; they are looking for a level playing field so that they can compete in international markets. They want less red tape and costly bureaucracy, which is an enormous burden on all sectors of industry. They want our loyalty—the loyalty of consumers to put Scottish produce in their shopping baskets.

We want Ross Finnie to make representations on behalf of the industry with that determination and political will. We want him to bang on Gordon Brown's door, to speak to him about the fuel duty, to demand actions and to demand answers.

The increase in the price of fuel hit six times over the cost of the journey that takes cattle from field to plate. It increases the costs of taking the cattle from the hill farmer to the mart, from the finisher to the farm, from the farm to the abattoir, from the abattoir to the central distribution point and from there to the supermarket, from where the consumer takes the meat home. Because of the fuel duty, the cost increases six times over—and the cost always lands with the primary producer. That must change.

I must also mention interest rates, which have led to cheap imports and increasingly difficult export conditions for the industry. One farmer from Gordon told me that the most recent 0.25 per cent increase in interest rates cost him £5,000—with a stroke of a pen, Government policy cost that farmer £5,000. We want Ross Finnie to knock on the doors of all the banks to get their co-operation, too. As many speakers have said, we also want him to fly to France to speak to the French Government and to put the case for the Scottish farmers in person. We want the minister to get the supermarkets on board as well.

Let us not forget the young farmers. For agriculture to survive in Scotland, we need young men and women to take over the farms. The young farmers are being put off farming. The farmer who lost £5,000 told me that his son had decided not to go into farming. That trend will be repeated across the country unless we address the challenges that face the industry.

The Scottish National party demands that the minister do all that he can to face the challenges and to help the industry, so that Scottish agriculture can continue to make a vital contribution to the Scottish economy, to Scottish culture and to Scotland as a whole.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:44.0221047+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2180E179P471C709507", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lochhead, Richard", "ID": 2180, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Lochhead", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Richard Lochhead (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 326.0, "ContributionID": 709507, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:31.1569345+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C709517", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fergus Ewing (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 346.0, "ContributionID": 709517, "EditedText": "On a point of order. Mr Henry said that the SNP had spent this morning attacking the English people. Is it in order for him to say that when the SNP has not done that this morning or at any time? I believe that a ruling should be made on this matter as it goes to the heart of this issue and many others.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. Mr Henry said that the SNP had spent this morning attacking the English people. Is it in order for him to say that when the SNP has not done that this morning or at any time? I believe that a ruling should be made on this matter as it goes to the heart of this issue and many others.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:00:40.809978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1756E184P464C709519", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Grahame, Christine", "ID": 1756, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Christine Grahame", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 351.0, "ContributionID": 709519, "EditedText": "Fergus took the words out of my mouth. I am half English and I have never ranted against my mother or any members of my family and the SNP has never ranted against the English people. I look forward to an apology from Hugh Henry. I want to comment on what Murray Tosh said. I did not vote for devolution—I make no secret of that—but I am not here to destroy the Parliament; I am here to see it succeed and grow. The concordats constrain the Parliament. We had no opportunity to discuss them before they were presented to us and, as Miss Goldie said, the document was presented first to the press— another insult to the democratic process of the Parliament. Donald Dewar described the drafting of the document as a team effort. From what we have heard, though, team A handed it down to team B. John McAllion said that this was not an agreement between Parliaments. That is right: the agreement is between the Labour party in the south and the Labour party in Scotland. It has bypassed the parliamentary process. I want to go to the heart of the document. Earlier, I raised a point about the joint ministerial committee. There are great difficulties for us on that matter. We will not know what it discusses, when it discuss it, how it discusses it or what the results of those discussions are. How can we hold the committee to account? We might read leaks in the press, but we will not know whether the leaks come from the Executive or are soft leaks. That is very wrong in a country where transparency is the order of the day. I accept Mr Tosh's point about the Parliament's committees having the ability to scrutinise what the joint ministerial committee does, but we cannot do that without access to minutes or other information. Page 7 of the memorandum outlines the joint ministerial committee's terms of reference, one of which is \"to consider non-devolved matters which impinge on devolved responsibilities, and devolved matters which impinge on non-devolved responsibilities\". We know that law is always hard where it is grey. Who makes the distinction to which the terms of reference refer? How will we ever know what distinctions have been made? If we do not have the information, we cannot know who has decided what was devolved and what was not. Another matter that concerns me is the giving of information. Page 3 tells us that it is for the Administration that is providing information to state what restrictions, if any, should be placed on that information's use. That means that if this Administration asks Westminster for information, Westminster can put restrictions on its use. For example, I might be bold enough to ask the Scottish Executive what inquiries it has made of Westminster about policy guidelines for regional selective assistance for, say, an electronics company in north Tyneside whose activities have impacted on employment in the Borders. If the principle that is outlined in the document is applied, the Executive might be gagged. I might not have access to information that would impinge on devolved matters.", "EditedTextHTML": "Fergus took the words out of my mouth. I am half English and I have never ranted against my mother or any members of my family and the SNP has never ranted against the English people. I look forward to an apology from Hugh Henry.

I want to comment on what Murray Tosh said. I did not vote for devolution—I make no secret of that—but I am not here to destroy the Parliament; I am here to see it succeed and grow.

The concordats constrain the Parliament. We had no opportunity to discuss them before they were presented to us and, as Miss Goldie said, the document was presented first to the press— another insult to the democratic process of the Parliament.

Donald Dewar described the drafting of the document as a team effort. From what we have heard, though, team A handed it down to team B.

John McAllion said that this was not an agreement between Parliaments. That is right: the agreement is between the Labour party in the south and the Labour party in Scotland. It has bypassed the parliamentary process.

I want to go to the heart of the document. Earlier, I raised a point about the joint ministerial committee. There are great difficulties for us on that matter. We will not know what it discusses, when it discuss it, how it discusses it or what the results of those discussions are. How can we hold the committee to account? We might read leaks in the press, but we will not know whether the leaks come from the Executive or are soft leaks. That is very wrong in a country where transparency is the order of the day.

I accept Mr Tosh's point about the Parliament's committees having the ability to scrutinise what the joint ministerial committee does, but we cannot do that without access to minutes or other information.

Page 7 of the memorandum outlines the joint ministerial committee's terms of reference, one of which is

\"to consider non-devolved matters which impinge on devolved responsibilities, and devolved matters which impinge on non-devolved responsibilities\".

We know that law is always hard where it is grey. Who makes the distinction to which the terms of reference refer? How will we ever know what distinctions have been made? If we do not have the information, we cannot know who has decided what was devolved and what was not.

Another matter that concerns me is the giving of information. Page 3 tells us that it is for the Administration that is providing information to state what restrictions, if any, should be placed on that information's use. That means that if this Administration asks Westminster for information, Westminster can put restrictions on its use.

For example, I might be bold enough to ask the Scottish Executive what inquiries it has made of Westminster about policy guidelines for regional selective assistance for, say, an electronics company in north Tyneside whose activities have impacted on employment in the Borders. If the principle that is outlined in the document is applied, the Executive might be gagged. I might not have access to information that would impinge on devolved matters.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:01:00.1970678+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1756E184P464C709521", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Grahame, Christine", "ID": 1756, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Christine Grahame", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Christine Grahame: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 355.0, "ContributionID": 709521, "EditedText": "Donald Dewar has not taken my point. I have found it extremely difficult to get the information I referred to. The problem is that if I sought information from Westminster, restrictions could be placed on its use. That would be done at the joint ministerial committee. I am concerned about the witch hunt that the press is conducting against the Parliament. I read a nonsense of a headline in The Scotsman today: \"Secrecy for the sake of secrecy\".The editorial comment tries to tell committees whether they can hold meetings in private. There is a lot of nonsense in that paper today but what concerns me about the joint ministerial committee is that the Parliament does not even have access to what is being discussed. I hope that Andrew Neil—that great advocate of the union—will chase up the joint ministerial committee when it gets up and running. Mr Dewar said that the agreement was honourable. It is not honourable because we have not had the opportunity to discuss it until it is presented to us. We know that the Parliaments must operate together. It is not in the interests of Scotland or England to be disharmonious; it is in the interest of this Parliament to be democratic. The document was not presented to us democratically and the process has not been transparent. The operation of the concordats will not be transparent either. I think that the document is designed to lock doors in the Parliament. I have news for the Executive: I am a bit of a lock picker.", "EditedTextHTML": "Donald Dewar has not taken my point. I have found it extremely difficult to get the information I referred to. The problem is that if I sought information from Westminster, restrictions could be placed on its use. That would be done at the joint ministerial committee.

I am concerned about the witch hunt that the press is conducting against the Parliament. I read a nonsense of a headline in The Scotsman today:

\"Secrecy for the sake of secrecy\".

The editorial comment tries to tell committees whether they can hold meetings in private. There is a lot of nonsense in that paper today but what concerns me about the joint ministerial committee is that the Parliament does not even have access to what is being discussed. I hope that Andrew Neil—that great advocate of the union—will chase up the joint ministerial committee when it gets up and running.

Mr Dewar said that the agreement was honourable. It is not honourable because we have not had the opportunity to discuss it until it is presented to us. We know that the Parliaments must operate together. It is not in the interests of Scotland or England to be disharmonious; it is in the interest of this Parliament to be democratic. The document was not presented to us democratically and the process has not been transparent. The operation of the concordats will not be transparent either.

I think that the document is designed to lock doors in the Parliament. I have news for the Executive: I am a bit of a lock picker.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:01:00.1970678+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C709603", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26915, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 468.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26916, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 469.0, "QuestionHeading": "Roads (Dumfries and Galloway)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26922, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 527.0, "DisplayOrder": 527.0, "ID": 26922, "ParentID": 26916 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 532.0, "ContributionID": 709603, "EditedText": "Priorities have been attached to the roads that Alasdair Morgan mentioned. The A75, for example, was the subject of a £7 million investment to the west of Dumfries, at the glen. It is one of the two routes that has been exempted from the moratorium on road building since the Government came to office in 1997. I would argue that there has been substantial investment in the area, and that the route action plans represent a tangible way of progressing.", "EditedTextHTML": "Priorities have been attached to the roads that Alasdair Morgan mentioned. The A75, for example, was the subject of a £7 million investment to the west of Dumfries, at the glen. It is one of the two routes that has been exempted from the moratorium on road building since the Government came to office in 1997. I would argue that there has been substantial investment in the area, and that the route action plans represent a tangible way of progressing.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:13.3570755+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C709693", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Railways", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26938, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 719.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 719.0, "ID": 26938, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 729.0, "ContributionID": 709693, "EditedText": "I have to disagree with Mr MacAskill on his last point. The Scottish Parliament will have the opportunity to promote and improve rail services in Scotland. Providing passenger revenue subsidy is one method of doing that. The efficient operation of the ScotRail franchise should offer us—as it has in the last month—the opportunity to provide a new raft of services throughout the whole of Scotland. There will be other ways to invest in the railways network. We are already using money from the public transport fund to invest in the network. One of the ways in which I am keen to ensure that we maximise investment is through the investment that Railtrack makes. I have already spoken with Tom Winsor about that.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have to disagree with Mr MacAskill on his last point. The Scottish Parliament will have the opportunity to promote and improve rail services in Scotland. Providing passenger revenue subsidy is one method of doing that. The efficient operation of the ScotRail franchise should offer us—as it has in the last month—the opportunity to provide a new raft of services throughout the whole of Scotland.

There will be other ways to invest in the railways network. We are already using money from the public transport fund to invest in the network. One of the ways in which I am keen to ensure that we maximise investment is through the investment that Railtrack makes. I have already spoken with Tom Winsor about that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:13.3570755+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C709699", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Railways", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26938, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 719.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 719.0, "ID": 26938, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 741.0, "ContributionID": 709699, "EditedText": "The Borders railway line survey is currently being carried out. We are part way through that process. A number of organisations have contributed to that study, including Midlothian Council, Scottish Borders Council and Railtrack. The survey is considering the various options and possibly reopening part of the Borders railway line—the Waverley line. I am keen to consider the recommendations when the report is concluded towards the end of November. I will take on board the issues raised in the report and see what is possible.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Borders railway line survey is currently being carried out. We are part way through that process. A number of organisations have contributed to that study, including Midlothian Council, Scottish Borders Council and Railtrack. The survey is considering the various options and possibly reopening part of the Borders railway line—the Waverley line. I am keen to consider the recommendations when the report is concluded towards the end of November. I will take on board the issues raised in the report and see what is possible.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:13.3570755+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C709701", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Railways", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26938, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 719.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 719.0, "ID": 26938, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 745.0, "ContributionID": 709701, "EditedText": "I congratulate Mr Jenkins on effectively expanding the focus of the discussion from rail to road. I entirely take Mr Jenkins's point. As we have a dense rail network across the most urban parts of Scotland, one of our challenges is to find out how we can improve the quality of services in rural areas. We have an opportunity to increase the frequency of rural rail services on, for example, commuter services into Aberdeen or Inverness. Trains might have to stop at an extra station. Although that would have an impact on the times of trains and the speed of service, it might bring benefits to areas where trains have rushed through without stopping. Mr Jenkins is right to say that a strategic approach is required. I hope that we will be able to focus on those issues through the work of Scottish ministers and in discussions with the Transport and the Environment Committee to bring benefits to rural areas. We might, for example, be able to provide high-quality park-and-ride facilities in more remote areas where it would be extremely expensive to add track. That might encourage people to drive to those areas to access the main railway network.", "EditedTextHTML": "I congratulate Mr Jenkins on effectively expanding the focus of the discussion from rail to road.

I entirely take Mr Jenkins's point. As we have a dense rail network across the most urban parts of Scotland, one of our challenges is to find out how we can improve the quality of services in rural areas. We have an opportunity to increase the frequency of rural rail services on, for example, commuter services into Aberdeen or Inverness. Trains might have to stop at an extra station. Although that would have an impact on the times of trains and the speed of service, it might bring benefits to areas where trains have rushed through without stopping.

Mr Jenkins is right to say that a strategic approach is required. I hope that we will be able to focus on those issues through the work of Scottish ministers and in discussions with the Transport and the Environment Committee to bring benefits to rural areas. We might, for example, be able to provide high-quality park-and-ride facilities in more remote areas where it would be extremely expensive to add track. That might encourage people to drive to those areas to access the main railway network.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:13.3570755+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C709703", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Railways", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26938, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 719.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 719.0, "ID": 26938, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 749.0, "ContributionID": 709703, "EditedText": "I understand that a Railtrack study completed in 1993 estimated the cost of electrification of the Edinburgh to Glasgow route via Falkirk High at £45 million, which is quite a hefty price tag. The new every-15-minute train service between Glasgow and Edinburgh will, I hope, provide a dramatically improved service for constituents in Mr Canavan's area and I will be happy to talk to him about how that service will make an appreciable difference.", "EditedTextHTML": "I understand that a Railtrack study completed in 1993 estimated the cost of electrification of the Edinburgh to Glasgow route via Falkirk High at £45 million, which is quite a hefty price tag. The new every-15-minute train service between Glasgow and Edinburgh will, I hope, provide a dramatically improved service for constituents in Mr Canavan's area and I will be happy to talk to him about how that service will make an appreciable difference.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:13.3570755+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C709705", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Railways", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26938, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 719.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 719.0, "ID": 26938, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 753.0, "ContributionID": 709705, "EditedText": "Improving travel times between Glasgow and Edinburgh is an important issue. However, the accessibility of the new service in places such as Falkirk High will markedly improve the railway network and transform people's perceptions of the accessibility of the railway network.", "EditedTextHTML": "Improving travel times between Glasgow and Edinburgh is an important issue. However, the accessibility of the new service in places such as Falkirk High will markedly improve the railway network and transform people's perceptions of the accessibility of the railway network.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:13.3570755+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C709709", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Railways", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26938, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 719.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 719.0, "ID": 26938, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 761.0, "ContributionID": 709709, "EditedText": "As discussions are still taking place between Scottish Executive officials and the Strathclyde Passenger Transport Executive, I have no news to give Mr Campbell at this time.", "EditedTextHTML": "As discussions are still taking place between Scottish Executive officials and the Strathclyde Passenger Transport Executive, I have no news to give Mr Campbell at this time.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:14.3101891+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C709711", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Railways", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26938, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 719.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 719.0, "ID": 26938, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 765.0, "ContributionID": 709711, "EditedText": "Increasing the number of stations that are accessible to people with physical disabilities is a major challenge. I have discussed that with ScotRail in the past. The requirements that have come from the Disabled Persons Transport Advisory Committee provide some useful targets for the rail industry to work towards. The Disability Discrimination Act 1995 is improving standards across the transport industry, and I would be happy to take forward with Helen Eadie our future discussion on the subject.", "EditedTextHTML": "Increasing the number of stations that are accessible to people with physical disabilities is a major challenge. I have discussed that with ScotRail in the past. The requirements that have come from the Disabled Persons Transport Advisory Committee provide some useful targets for the rail industry to work towards. The Disability Discrimination Act 1995 is improving standards across the transport industry, and I would be happy to take forward with Helen Eadie our future discussion on the subject.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:14.3101891+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C709715", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Railways", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26938, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 719.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 719.0, "ID": 26938, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 773.0, "ContributionID": 709715, "EditedText": "I am sure that we will be able to take that on board as we examine the priorities for the whole of Scotland. The agenda is challenging and a significant amount of money is involved in improving the rail network. We must get better value from existing services. The rail network is expanding. We had decades of under-investment in the rail network and the industry was declining. I think that it is exciting and significant that we are now talking about our future priorities for expansion of the railway network in urban and rural parts of Scotland. It is not an agenda to be delivered overnight, but the Parliament should take this challenging objective forward.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sure that we will be able to take that on board as we examine the priorities for the whole of Scotland. The agenda is challenging and a significant amount of money is involved in improving the rail network. We must get better value from existing services.

The rail network is expanding. We had decades of under-investment in the rail network and the industry was declining. I think that it is exciting and significant that we are now talking about our future priorities for expansion of the railway network in urban and rural parts of Scotland. It is not an agenda to be delivered overnight, but the Parliament should take this challenging objective forward.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:14.3101891+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C709717", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Railways", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26938, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 719.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 719.0, "ID": 26938, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 777.0, "ContributionID": 709717, "EditedText": "I can reassure David Mundell that, in advance of the strategic rail authority being set up, the Scottish Executive is in discussions with the shadow strategic rail authority about a number of issues on the future of railways in Scotland. I take on board his representations on this subject, which he has made to me before.", "EditedTextHTML": "I can reassure David Mundell that, in advance of the strategic rail authority being set up, the Scottish Executive is in discussions with the shadow strategic rail authority about a number of issues on the future of railways in Scotland. I take on board his representations on this subject, which he has made to me before.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:14.3101891+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C709546", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 410.0, "ContributionID": 709546, "EditedText": "I am sure that the Speaker of the House of Commons will have something to say about that when Westminster resumes in a couple of weeks. The Executive will soon know the severity of the Speaker's wrath in such matters. If we consider the way in which parliamentary questions are dealt with, a host of other issues are revealed. Alex Neil has asked a number of questions about the preparation of the concordats. I will not go through them, but there is an extensive selection on the subject in Written Answers of 13 September to 17 September. In every case, the Deputy First Minister, Mr Wallace, went to the trouble of saying that he would reply to the member as soon as possible. That was 13 September and we are now in early October. Surely the Executive could have released some information about the preparation and the process that it was going through in the dialogue on concordats. Another issue at the heart of the debate is how the Parliament should consider the issues that arise from the concordats. John McAllion, Hugh Henry and Des McNulty—who is not here for the summing up, despite the strictures that the Presiding Officer made yesterday—made the point that the concordats are agreements between Executives. I acknowledge that. However, we need to know our ability as a Parliament to hold the Executive to account for the action that it takes under those agreements. John McAllion cannot accuse me of being paranoid when he considers the number of answers that Jim Wallace gave to Alex Neil saying that he would reply as soon as possible. Those answers give absolutely zero information. The issues at the heart of the memorandum of understanding will be handled by the joint ministerial committee in secret. The minutes will be confidential and unavailable to the Parliament. How can our committees hold the Executive to account if the minutes are private and ministers can hide behind answers such as \"I will reply as soon as possible\" and \"That document is confidential\"?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sure that the Speaker of the House of Commons will have something to say about that when Westminster resumes in a couple of weeks. The Executive will soon know the severity of the Speaker's wrath in such matters.

If we consider the way in which parliamentary questions are dealt with, a host of other issues are revealed. Alex Neil has asked a number of questions about the preparation of the concordats. I will not go through them, but there is an extensive selection on the subject in Written Answers of 13 September to 17 September. In every case, the Deputy First Minister, Mr Wallace, went to the trouble of saying that he would reply to the member as soon as possible. That was 13 September and we are now in early October. Surely the Executive could have released some information about the preparation and the process that it was going through in the dialogue on concordats.

Another issue at the heart of the debate is how the Parliament should consider the issues that arise from the concordats. John McAllion, Hugh Henry and Des McNulty—who is not here for the summing up, despite the strictures that the Presiding Officer made yesterday—made the point that the concordats are agreements between Executives. I acknowledge that. However, we need to know our ability as a Parliament to hold the Executive to account for the action that it takes under those agreements.

John McAllion cannot accuse me of being paranoid when he considers the number of answers that Jim Wallace gave to Alex Neil saying that he would reply as soon as possible. Those answers give absolutely zero information. The issues at the heart of the memorandum of understanding will be handled by the joint ministerial committee in secret. The minutes will be confidential and unavailable to the Parliament. How can our committees hold the Executive to account if the minutes are private and ministers can hide behind answers such as \"I will reply as soon as possible\" and \"That document is confidential\"?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:18:48.0221515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C709554", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 427.0, "ContributionID": 709554, "EditedText": "I have observed Mr Wallace's career in Scottish politics for many years. He has made a distinguished contribution to the pursuit of greater information for the benefit of the public. Is he seriously trying to tell us that a couple of lines given in an answer to Richard Lochhead the day before publication of the concordats is adequate consultation with the Scottish Parliament? What has happened to Mr Wallace's view of democracy?", "EditedTextHTML": "I have observed Mr Wallace's career in Scottish politics for many years. He has made a distinguished contribution to the pursuit of

greater information for the benefit of the public. Is he seriously trying to tell us that a couple of lines given in an answer to Richard Lochhead the day before publication of the concordats is adequate consultation with the Scottish Parliament? What has happened to Mr Wallace's view of democracy?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:18:48.0221515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1857E136P222C709706", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Railways", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26938, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 719.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 719.0, "ID": 26938, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeill, Pauline", "ID": 1857, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Kelvin" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Pauline McNeill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Pauline McNeill (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 755.0, "ContributionID": 709706, "EditedText": "Will the minister consider taking action to improve passenger comfort on trains? If so, will she comment on the part of the ScotRail charter which says that the company will not offer refunds to passengers who complain about a lack of comfort on the service?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister consider taking action to improve passenger comfort on trains? If so, will she comment on the part of the ScotRail charter which says that the company will not offer refunds to passengers who complain about a lack of comfort on the service?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:22:26.8814208+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C709359", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 19.0, "ContributionID": 709359, "EditedText": "The First Minister made a comment on whether the documents are legally binding. I refer him to an exchange in the House of Commons on 12 May 1998 between Mr McLeish, then Minister for Home Affairs and Devolution, and Mr Wallace, who was then a member of the Opposition, in which Mr McLeish said that the concordats \"will be justiciable to an extent.\"—Official Report, House of Commons, 12 May 1998, Vol 312, c 193. He further said that the Scottish Executive, if it failed to follow, for example, the consultation processes inherent in the documents, may find some legal action taken to bring it to account. Will the First Minister tell us the circumstances in which he thinks Mr McLeish's advice to Mr Wallace is valid, and the extent to which that puts legal constraints on the Executive to follow the contents of the concordats, despite the fact that the Executive, on instruction from this Parliament, may take the view that the actions that it is taking are in the interests of this Parliament and of the Scottish people?", "EditedTextHTML": "The First Minister made a comment on whether the documents are legally binding. I refer him to an exchange in the House of Commons on 12 May 1998 between Mr McLeish, then Minister for Home Affairs and Devolution, and Mr Wallace, who was then a member of the Opposition, in which Mr McLeish said that the concordats

\"will be justiciable to an extent.\"—[Official Report, House of Commons, 12 May 1998, Vol 312, c 193.]

He further said that the Scottish Executive, if it failed to follow, for example, the consultation processes inherent in the documents, may find some legal action taken to bring it to account.

Will the First Minister tell us the circumstances in which he thinks Mr McLeish's advice to Mr Wallace is valid, and the extent to which that puts legal constraints on the Executive to follow the contents of the concordats, despite the fact that the Executive, on instruction from this Parliament, may take the view that the actions that it is taking are in the interests of this Parliament and of the Scottish people?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:13:41.2269066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C709382", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 65.0, "ContributionID": 709382, "EditedText": "Will the First Minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the First Minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:13:41.2269066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C709426", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26913, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26913, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 155.0, "ContributionID": 709426, "EditedText": "Does Miss Goldie agree that Parliament could have a greater role in the process of arriving at the concordats and does she further agree that the fact that they were announced to the press first was a gross discourtesy to this Parliament? Should not we have been consulted earlier on the issues involved? That would have meant that some of the suggestions that Mr Neil made on the joint ministerial committee and the chairing of that committee could have been incorporated in the dialogue that the First Minister had with the UK Government on that subject.", "EditedTextHTML": "Does Miss Goldie agree that Parliament could have a greater role in the process of arriving at the concordats and does she further agree that the fact that they were announced to the press first was a gross discourtesy to this Parliament? Should not we have been consulted earlier on the issues involved? That would have meant that some of the suggestions that Mr Neil made on the joint ministerial committee and the chairing of that committee could have been incorporated in the dialogue that the First Minister had with the UK Government on that subject.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:14:54.5772891+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1783E59P270C709609", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26915, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 468.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26916, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 469.0, "QuestionHeading": "Social Inclusion", "QuestionHeadingID": 26924, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 541.0, "DisplayOrder": 541.0, "ID": 26924, "ParentID": 26916 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Baillie, Jackie", "ID": 1783, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumbarton" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Jackie Baillie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Jackie Baillie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 546.0, "ContributionID": 709609, "EditedText": "It is for social inclusion partnerships, which include representatives of local government, the voluntary sector and the community, to determine on-going needs. In an ideal situation, we would support continuity of funding. However, we also need to reflect local needs and circumstances, and social inclusion partnerships are the best way to do so.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is for social inclusion partnerships, which include representatives of local government, the voluntary sector and the community, to determine on-going needs. In an ideal situation, we would support continuity of funding. However, we also need to reflect local needs and circumstances, and social inclusion partnerships are the best way to do so.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:20:08.7854474+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1857E136P222C709647", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26915, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 468.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26916, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 469.0, "QuestionHeading": "Popular Music", "QuestionHeadingID": 26931, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 628.0, "DisplayOrder": 628.0, "ID": 26931, "ParentID": 26916 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeill, Pauline", "ID": 1857, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Kelvin" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Pauline McNeill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "16. Pauline McNeill (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 629.0, "ContributionID": 709647, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what initiatives it is planning to promote the Scottish popular music industry, and whether it will include popular music in the national cultural strategy. (S1O-418)", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what initiatives it is planning to promote the Scottish popular music industry, and whether it will include popular music in the national cultural strategy. (S1O-418)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:20:08.7854474+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1857E136P222C709649", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 07 Oct 1999", "ID": 4184 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-07T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26915, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 468.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26916, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 469.0, "QuestionHeading": "Popular Music", "QuestionHeadingID": 26931, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 628.0, "DisplayOrder": 628.0, "ID": 26931, "ParentID": 26916 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeill, Pauline", "ID": 1857, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Kelvin" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Pauline McNeill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Pauline McNeill: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 633.0, "ContributionID": 709649, "EditedText": "Does the minister agree that widening the definition of music in the national cultural strategy to include popular music will be good for the industry and the involvement of young people? Will she agree to meet me and other interested MSPs?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the minister agree that widening the definition of music in the national cultural strategy to include popular music will be good for the industry and the involvement of young people? Will she agree to meet me and other interested MSPs?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:20:08.7854474+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C709173", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 69.0, "ContributionID": 709173, "EditedText": "Will the minister clarify what he said about the increase of £35 million in the roads programme? Over how many years is that money spread? Is it the increase that was announced in \"Serving Scotland's Needs\", or is it genuinely new money?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister clarify what he said about the increase of £35 million in the roads programme? Over how many years is that money spread? Is it the increase that was announced in \"Serving Scotland's Needs\", or is it genuinely new money?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C709176", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 75.0, "ContributionID": 709176, "EditedText": "This is definitely new money. Ithas been included because it is wise to charge on and invest in our education system. We are committed to the national grid for learning, although I understand that during the election campaign earlier this year others had reservations about it.", "EditedTextHTML": "This is definitely new money. It

has been included because it is wise to charge on and invest in our education system. We are committed to the national grid for learning, although I understand that during the election campaign earlier this year others had reservations about it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C709180", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 83.0, "ContributionID": 709180, "EditedText": "Many of these issues require detailed discussion, which would be best conducted in the Finance Committee and other appropriate committees of the Parliament. Within the published figures for each year are elements that are included on a one-off basis. The figures include spending on health and education and considerable investment in buildings, not all of which is shown in these figures—much of it is found in local authority accounts. The health and community care line does not include the amount of money that is spent on community care by local authorities in Scotland. The detailed figures have to be discussed; one of the beauties of our system is that they can— and must be—discussed in the Parliament's committees. I hope that members will appreciate the fact that today I have not tried to steal a march on the committees by announcing in a statement unpublished detailed plans. That gives members of committees a chance, having had today's strategic debate, to examine the figures in some detail.", "EditedTextHTML": "Many of these issues require detailed discussion, which would be best conducted in the Finance Committee and other appropriate committees of the Parliament. Within the published figures for each year are elements that are included on a one-off basis. The figures include spending on health and education and considerable investment in buildings, not all of which is shown in these figures—much of it is found in local authority accounts. The health and community care line does not include the amount of money that is spent on community care by local authorities in Scotland.

The detailed figures have to be discussed; one of the beauties of our system is that they can— and must be—discussed in the Parliament's committees. I hope that members will appreciate the fact that today I have not tried to steal a march on the committees by announcing in a statement unpublished detailed plans. That gives members of committees a chance, having had today's strategic debate, to examine the figures in some detail.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709181", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 85.0, "ContributionID": 709181, "EditedText": "That concludes the 10 minutes allowed for questions. I apologise to the five members who were still hoping to ask a question.", "EditedTextHTML": "That concludes the 10 minutes allowed for questions. I apologise to the five members who were still hoping to ask a question.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C709184", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 92.0, "ContributionID": 709184, "EditedText": "I am grateful for that most relevant intervention. On Hugh Henry's first point, there is a necessity for that link in the settlement, but my point is that I think we should be able to decide how much the Scotland Office spends, rather than the Scotland Office making that decision. That is the wrong route for us to go down—it is anti-devolution. On the second, irrelevant point, the British Foreign Office is among the most profligate in the world. I argue that we need to see bangs for bucks. There are no best-value criteria to measure the delivery of services from Westminster departments. Today's budget is a non-budget. It merely recasts existing spending plans and makes alterations to about 0.5 per cent of the overall budget. Mr McConnell has taken five months to tell us where he will find money to pay for the partnership commitments. Is it good, credible budget practice for the minister to announce spending plans without any indication of how he will pay for them? We found out today, at last, during the question session, that he has cut nothing and has not even been involved in serious negotiations. The budget is simply a recycling of last year's surplus. We pointed that out to the media yesterday. On Mr McConnell's plans, any proper assessment of the Executive's effectiveness should examine its activity in a context of openness and efficiency of outcome. The big numbers that we heard today tell us where the ship is headed. I will concentrate on that, but while the big picture is bad enough, when we get down to the detail of what is being spent and how it is meeting the needs on the ground, the human reality of the Government's failure will become most apparent. To take just one example, nowhere in the figures that we heard today—or in any Scottish Office reports from the past few years—does it mention the fact that Scottish Enterprise spends £1 million a year on one public relations company whose word the First Minister does not appear even to trust. We must examine the context of today's statement. Everything that we heard today comes after three years of stringent public spending cuts that would make Keith Joseph blush. In the Labour Government's first three years, it is spending £1.1 billion less on Scotland's budget than was spent in the Tories' last three years. Does that make members on the Government back benches proud? On industry, Labour has spent £320 million over the same period. On schools, the figure is £121 million. Instead of education, education, education, the reality was cutback, cutback, cutback. On local government—a matter that is close to many of our hearts—the capital spend over the same period is nearly £1 billion less. Current expenditure on local government is £1.3 billion less. Labour is hammering local authority budgets throughout Scotland and has left a black hole that will mean only service cuts or council tax hikes over the coming period. My colleague Kenny Gibson will highlight that later. We find ourselves in a tough context, on the back of a period of slash and cut in vital public services. My colleagues will concentrate on the implications of that where it matters—in the daily provision of services to people in their daily lives. This is a hand-me-down budget; it is about managing the decline in Scottish public services. Peel away the sheen from any new Labour statement and we find that the new Labour project is all about taking on the baton of Thatcherism. Mrs Thatcher boasted that she rolled back the frontiers of the state. Today confirms that new Labour in Scotland is in the process of finishing off that job and public services with it. Labour used to call the Conservatives' programme the creeping slow death of public service. Labour is accelerating that process. The minister and his colleagues will have to answer to some facts during this debate, the first of which is that Labour is committing less of the national wealth, in terms of gross domestic product, to public services than has happened at any point in the past 40 years. That will surprise most people in this country. Is that in line with Scotland's modern, social democratic objectives? It is a fact— The Minister for Communities (Ms Wendy Alexander) indicated disagreement.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful for that most relevant intervention. On Hugh Henry's first point, there is a necessity for that link in the settlement, but my point is that I think we should be able to decide how much the Scotland Office spends, rather than the Scotland Office making that decision. That is the wrong route for us to go down—it is anti-devolution.

On the second, irrelevant point, the British Foreign Office is among the most profligate in the world. I argue that we need to see bangs for bucks. There are no best-value criteria to measure the delivery of services from Westminster departments.

Today's budget is a non-budget. It merely recasts existing spending plans and makes alterations to about 0.5 per cent of the overall budget.

Mr McConnell has taken five months to tell us where he will find money to pay for the partnership commitments. Is it good, credible budget practice for the minister to announce spending plans without any indication of how he will pay for them? We found out today, at last, during the question session, that he has cut nothing and has not even been involved in serious negotiations. The budget is simply a recycling of last year's surplus. We pointed that out to the media yesterday.

On Mr McConnell's plans, any proper assessment of the Executive's effectiveness should examine its activity in a context of openness and efficiency of outcome. The big numbers that we heard today tell us where the ship is headed. I will concentrate on that, but while the big picture is bad enough, when we get down to the detail of what is being spent and how it is meeting the needs on the ground, the human reality of the Government's failure will become most apparent. To take just one example, nowhere in the figures that we heard today—or in any Scottish Office reports from the past few years—does it mention the fact that Scottish Enterprise spends £1 million a year on one public relations company whose word the First Minister does not appear even to trust.

We must examine the context of today's statement. Everything that we heard today comes after three years of stringent public spending cuts that would make Keith Joseph blush. In the Labour Government's first three years, it is spending £1.1 billion less on Scotland's budget than was spent in the Tories' last three years. Does that make members on the Government back benches proud? On industry, Labour has spent £320 million over the same period. On schools, the figure is £121 million. Instead of education, education, education, the reality was cutback, cutback, cutback.

On local government—a matter that is close to many of our hearts—the capital spend over the same period is nearly £1 billion less. Current expenditure on local government is £1.3 billion less. Labour is hammering local authority budgets throughout Scotland and has left a black hole that will mean only service cuts or council tax hikes over the coming period. My colleague Kenny Gibson will highlight that later.

We find ourselves in a tough context, on the back of a period of slash and cut in vital public services. My colleagues will concentrate on the implications of that where it matters—in the daily provision of services to people in their daily lives.

This is a hand-me-down budget; it is about managing the decline in Scottish public services. Peel away the sheen from any new Labour statement and we find that the new Labour project is all about taking on the baton of Thatcherism. Mrs Thatcher boasted that she rolled back the frontiers of the state. Today confirms that new Labour in Scotland is in the process of finishing off that job and public services with it.

Labour used to call the Conservatives' programme the creeping slow death of public service. Labour is accelerating that process.

The minister and his colleagues will have to answer to some facts during this debate, the first of which is that Labour is committing less of the national wealth, in terms of gross domestic product, to public services than has happened at any point in the past 40 years. That will surprise

most people in this country. Is that in line with Scotland's modern, social democratic objectives? It is a fact—

The Minister for Communities (Ms Wendy Alexander) indicated disagreement.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2123E103P242C709186", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Chisholm, Malcolm", "ID": 2123, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh North and Leith" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Malcolm Chisholm", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 96.0, "ContributionID": 709186, "EditedText": "Mr Wilson mentioned health. In real terms, he took the best of 18 Tory years when the figure was £4.2 billion. That figure will be over £5 billion at the end of the comprehensive spending review period. His point about percentage of GDP is invalid—because the economy is doing so well, it is the total figures on public expenditure that matter, not the percentages.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Wilson mentioned health. In real terms, he took the best of 18 Tory years when the figure was £4.2 billion. That figure will be over £5 billion at the end of the comprehensive spending review period. His point about percentage of GDP is invalid—because the economy is doing so well, it is the total figures on public expenditure that matter, not the percentages.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709188", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 100.0, "ContributionID": 709188, "EditedText": "I would like to thank Mr McConnell and Mr Wilson for keeping well within the agreed time limits.", "EditedTextHTML": "I would like to thank Mr McConnell and Mr Wilson for keeping well within the agreed time limits.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C709197", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 119.0, "ContributionID": 709197, "EditedText": "Mr Raffan should know better.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Raffan should know better.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1821E295P538C709199", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Mrs Margaret", "ID": 1821, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Moray" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Margaret Ewing (Moray) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 123.0, "ContributionID": 709199, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1821E295P538C709201", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Mrs Margaret", "ID": 1821, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Moray" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 127.0, "ContributionID": 709201, "EditedText": "Does what Mr Davidson said mean that he accepts that a decision of this Parliament will be supreme in ruling what happens on tuition fees?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does what Mr Davidson said mean that he accepts that a decision of this Parliament will be supreme in ruling what happens on tuition fees?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C709202", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Davidson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 129.0, "ContributionID": 709202, "EditedText": "I seem to remember that we had a manifesto before the election. I am not sure whether the good lady has read it—I suggest that she leaves the chamber to have another look at it. Another matter arising from the statement which, as Andrew Wilson said, we saw only fleetingly before the meeting—we are grateful for the opportunity just the same—is that very little money will be put into the enterprise and lifelong learning department. The minister mentioned a few sums of money to help people into education, but I did not hear anything in the statement about what the minister is putting towards the development of the enterprise culture that I recall everybody in this chamber supporting at the beginning of this Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "I seem to remember that we had a manifesto before the election. I am not sure whether the good lady has read it—I suggest that she leaves the chamber to have another look at it.

Another matter arising from the statement which, as Andrew Wilson said, we saw only fleetingly before the meeting—we are grateful for the opportunity just the same—is that very little money will be put into the enterprise and lifelong learning department. The minister mentioned a few sums of money to help people into education, but I did not hear anything in the statement about what the minister is putting towards the development of the enterprise culture that I recall everybody in this chamber supporting at the beginning of this Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C709205", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 135.0, "ContributionID": 709205, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C709207", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 139.0, "ContributionID": 709207, "EditedText": "In the spirit of Mr Swinney's consistent remarks over the past 12 months—at Westminster, during the election campaign, and here in the Scottish Parliament—that we could make better use of the resources available to local enterprise companies and Scottish Enterprise, does Mr Davidson agree that the spirit of enterprise that he refers to is sometimes best served by making better use of existing resources rather than by adding to lines where that money may not be required?", "EditedTextHTML": "In the spirit of Mr Swinney's consistent remarks over the past 12 months—at Westminster, during the election campaign, and here in the Scottish Parliament—that we could make better use of the resources available to local enterprise companies and Scottish Enterprise, does Mr Davidson agree that the spirit of enterprise that he refers to is sometimes best served by making better use of existing resources rather than by adding to lines where that money may not be required?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2044E178P334C709213", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jenkins, Ian", "ID": 2044, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ian Jenkins", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ian Jenkins: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 151.0, "ContributionID": 709213, "EditedText": "As there are schoolchildren in the gallery, and as we have confirmed that an extra £80 million will be spent on education, is this or is this not an excellent day for education?", "EditedTextHTML": "As there are schoolchildren in the gallery, and as we have confirmed that an extra £80 million will be spent on education, is this or is this not an excellent day for education?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1985E207P501C709224", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hamilton, Mr Duncan", "ID": 1985, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Duncan Hamilton (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 175.0, "ContributionID": 709224, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2123E103P242C709231", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Chisholm, Malcolm", "ID": 2123, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh North and Leith" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Malcolm Chisholm", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Malcolm Chisholm rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 190.0, "ContributionID": 709231, "EditedText": "Paul Martin (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)rose—", "EditedTextHTML": "

Paul Martin (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)

rose—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C709241", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 212.0, "ContributionID": 709241, "EditedText": "Oh sit down, George, for goodness' sake.", "EditedTextHTML": "Oh sit down, George, for goodness' sake.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C709242", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 214.0, "ContributionID": 709242, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C709243", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 216.0, "ContributionID": 709243, "EditedText": "No, Jack, just give me a minute. In 1997, Tony Blair—Jack's master—said in Amsterdam that he was extremely grateful to the Tory party.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, Jack, just give me a minute. In 1997, Tony Blair—Jack's master—said in Amsterdam that he was extremely grateful to the Tory party.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C709247", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 224.0, "ContributionID": 709247, "EditedText": "I am acknowledging that joining the ERM was the greatest mistake that we ever made. However, Mr Raffan would have had us rushing into the euro; given the devaluation of that currency, how much would that move have cost people in the UK? We should consider the issue of law and order in relation to this budget. One of the Labour slogans at the previous election was, \"Tough on crime\". However, I am pretty disappointed at the lack of comment on law and order issues.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am acknowledging that joining the ERM was the greatest mistake that we ever made. However, Mr Raffan would have had us rushing into the euro; given the devaluation of that currency, how much would that move have cost people in the UK?

We should consider the issue of law and order in relation to this budget. One of the Labour slogans at the previous election was, \"Tough on crime\". However, I am pretty disappointed at the lack of comment on law and order issues.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1908E166P251C709248", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Kerr, Andy", "ID": 1908, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Kilbride" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andy Kerr", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Andy Kerr (East Kilbride) (Lab) rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 226.0, "ContributionID": 709248, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C709257", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 244.0, "ContributionID": 709257, "EditedText": "I want to make one final point. In response to a question that I asked last week, the Minister for Finance said that £300,000 per year is spent on ministerial cars. Surely that £300,000 could be spent on other things.", "EditedTextHTML": "I want to make one final point. In response to a question that I asked last week, the Minister for Finance said that £300,000 per year is spent on ministerial cars. Surely that £300,000 could be spent on other things.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1931E120P189C709260", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Muldoon, Bristow", "ID": 1931, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Livingston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bristow Muldoon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bristow Muldoon (Livingston) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 252.0, "ContributionID": 709260, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C709261", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Simpson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 254.0, "ContributionID": 709261, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1811E172P455C709264", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ullrich, Kay", "ID": 1811, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kay Ullrich", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Kay Ullrich: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 260.0, "ContributionID": 709264, "EditedText": "No, I want to continue. The irony is that those having to sell their homes are members of a generation that was told by a Labour Government after the war that if they contributed to the public kitty, they would be looked after when their working lives were over. New Labour—and the Tories before it—must stand accused of a complete breach of faith with an entire generation. We have had the fine words and the glossy brochures, but, as I am fond of saying, facts are chiels that winna ding, and the facts are that new Labour puts right-wing tax cuts before the health service and Gordon Brown's election war chest before caring for our elderly people.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I want to continue. The irony is that those having to sell their homes are members of a generation that was told by a Labour Government after the war that if they contributed to the public kitty, they would be looked after when their working lives were over. New Labour—and the Tories before it—must stand accused of a complete breach of faith with an entire generation.

We have had the fine words and the glossy brochures, but, as I am fond of saying, facts are chiels that winna ding, and the facts are that new Labour puts right-wing tax cuts before the health service and Gordon Brown's election war chest before caring for our elderly people.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1811E172P455C709267", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ullrich, Kay", "ID": 1811, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kay Ullrich", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Kay Ullrich: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 266.0, "ContributionID": 709267, "EditedText": "Health spending as a proportion of national wealth has dropped under new Labour to its lowest level in a quarter of a century. However hard the new Labour spin, the facts and the reality that people see every day tell a different story— one of underfunding, neglect and shame for new Labour.", "EditedTextHTML": "Health spending as a proportion of national wealth has dropped under new Labour to its lowest level in a quarter of a century. However hard the new Labour spin, the facts and the reality that people see every day tell a different story— one of underfunding, neglect and shame for new Labour.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C709276", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 285.0, "ContributionID": 709276, "EditedText": "The same principles apply to spinal injury patients, whose care costs £250 per day. In that case, better working relationships with housing departments could mean that those patients have the care that they need in their own homes.", "EditedTextHTML": "The same principles apply to spinal injury patients, whose care costs £250 per day. In that case, better working relationships with

housing departments could mean that those patients have the care that they need in their own homes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1908E166P251C709279", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Kerr, Andy", "ID": 1908, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Kilbride" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andy Kerr", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Kerr: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 292.0, "ContributionID": 709279, "EditedText": "That was when this nation lost millions of pounds. I am astonished that anybody would refer to it as Golden Wednesday, albeit according to the Conservatives' anti-European agenda, which took them out of the exchange rate mechanism. I think that that is fairly disgusting, and I am glad that it is on the public record. I turn to the statement. We must welcome the new money going into Scotland's services: the money announced by Jack and the reallocation of resources to what he called in his speech the people's priorities. It is about education. Phil said, \"Tough on crime\". We are also tough on the causes of crime. That is why, looking at the general economic climate, youth unemployment is at a historic low level, general unemployment is at a historic low level, long-term unemployment is at a historic low level. That is what Government's role is. Working in partnership with Westminster, we can deliver those macro-economic solutions, which will have local implications for crime and so on. I welcome that reduction in unemployment. It is generally respected by journalists.", "EditedTextHTML": "That was when this nation lost millions of pounds. I am astonished that anybody would refer to it as Golden Wednesday, albeit according to the Conservatives' anti-European agenda, which took them out of the exchange rate mechanism. I think that that is fairly disgusting, and I am glad that it is on the public record.

I turn to the statement. We must welcome the new money going into Scotland's services: the money announced by Jack and the reallocation of resources to what he called in his speech the people's priorities. It is about education.

Phil said, \"Tough on crime\". We are also tough on the causes of crime. That is why, looking at the general economic climate, youth unemployment is at a historic low level, general unemployment is at a historic low level, long-term unemployment is at a historic low level. That is what Government's role is. Working in partnership with Westminster, we can deliver those macro-economic solutions, which will have local implications for crime and so on. I welcome that reduction in unemployment. It is generally respected by journalists.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1892E34P73C709280", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Fergusson, Alex", "ID": 1892, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Fergusson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Fergusson (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 294.0, "ContributionID": 709280, "EditedText": "Will Mr Kerr give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "

Will Mr Kerr give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1908E166P251C709281", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Kerr, Andy", "ID": 1908, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Kilbride" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andy Kerr", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Kerr: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 296.0, "ContributionID": 709281, "EditedText": "Andrew Wilson was quoting journalists about Gordon Brown's war cabinet. Laughter. I also quote from The Herald. One of its headlines was: \"Golden age hailed as jobless total plummets\".That relates to the management economy. We keep comparing expenditure patterns. The baseline figures provided by Jack McConnell and his office show that we are growing in terms of health expenditure, which may be reduced in terms of gross national product, but we have a well-managed economy that is running at higher levels than ever before. In comparative terms, there may be reductions, but in a context of £4 billion of new money coming to Scotland through the CSR, and of £800 for every man, woman and child in Scotland, I would have thought that the Opposition parties would have managed some grudging congratulations to Labour and to Jack McConnell for spending the money so wisely in Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "Andrew Wilson was quoting journalists about Gordon Brown's war cabinet. [Laughter.] I also quote from The Herald. One of its headlines was:

\"Golden age hailed as jobless total plummets\".

That relates to the management economy. We keep comparing expenditure patterns. The baseline figures provided by Jack McConnell and his office show that we are growing in terms of health expenditure, which may be reduced in terms of gross national product, but we have a well-managed economy that is running at higher levels than ever before. In comparative terms, there may be reductions, but in a context of £4 billion of new money coming to Scotland through the CSR, and of £800 for every man, woman and child in Scotland, I would have thought that the

Opposition parties would have managed some grudging congratulations to Labour and to Jack McConnell for spending the money so wisely in Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1908E166P251C709283", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Kerr, Andy", "ID": 1908, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Kilbride" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andy Kerr", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Kerr: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 300.0, "ContributionID": 709283, "EditedText": "Crime is a very complex matter, and that is why we are spending more money on drug enforcement agencies, and why the Deputy Minister for Justice is going to Ireland to examine new measures for dealing with drug enforcement and the seizure of assets. We are dealing with the issues as we see fit—successfully, I would argue. Drugs are one of the main focuses of criminal activity. Therefore, we are spending the money on the people's priorities: on the drugs issue, on the drugs enforcement agency and, I hope, on the seizure of assets. That is how to deal with the drugs problem and its effect on crime. Let us consider the big picture, which Andrew Wilson talked about. The big picture is inflation at all-time lows, interest rates at all-time lows, unemployment at all-time lows, and Jack McConnell presenting a firm financial statement for the Scottish people's benefit. It is their money and he is spending it well.", "EditedTextHTML": "Crime is a very complex matter, and that is why we are spending more money on drug enforcement agencies, and why the Deputy Minister for Justice is going to Ireland to examine new measures for dealing with drug enforcement and the seizure of assets. We are dealing with the issues as we see fit—successfully, I would argue. Drugs are one of the main focuses of criminal activity. Therefore, we are spending the money on the people's priorities: on the drugs issue, on the drugs enforcement agency and, I hope, on the seizure of assets. That is how to deal with the drugs problem and its effect on crime.

Let us consider the big picture, which Andrew Wilson talked about. The big picture is inflation at all-time lows, interest rates at all-time lows, unemployment at all-time lows, and Jack McConnell presenting a firm financial statement for the Scottish people's benefit. It is their money and he is spending it well.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C709285", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan (Glasgow) (SSP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 306.0, "ContributionID": 709285, "EditedText": "It is little consolation to the man who lost both arms and both legs through a tragic accident, only to be told a number of years later that a transplant will give him back one of his arms. He is still a severely disabled man. Unfortunately, the minister's statement makes up in no way for the massive reduction in public services and expenditure in public services that we have suffered in the past two decades. The problem is that the statement is part and parcel of new Labour's on-going crusade against public services and in favour of private finance. It shows total disregard for the value and the morale of our public service workers. Reference was made earlier to a London School of Economics report that, after extensive analysis, clearly exposed the fact that this Government is spending a smaller proportion of its wealth on public services than any other Government in the past 40 years. It is of little consolation to the 200,000 pensioners, of little consolation to the 300,000 poor children and of little consolation to those hundreds of thousands of public service workers to hear talk of prudent finance. I challenge this Executive to make a strong case to the British Government. We in Scotland must budget with the mere morsels that are given to us, rather than controlling the wealth and the resources of this country as we should. It is time that this Executive went back to Mr Brown to say to him that it is a disgrace that £12 billion is sitting in the public coffers while 200,000 pensioners are poor and while 300,000 children are poor. It is a disgrace and one of which this Executive should be ashamed. A recent Trades Union Congress report shows that Britain remains bottom of the European league of public investment. Britain is No 15 out of 15. The European Commission's forecast is that we will still be bottom of that European league of public expenditure in the middle of 2000. The TUC's statement shows that when the comprehensive spending review and this Executive's statement are taken into account, we are still spending 25 per cent less on public services in real terms than we did in 1993-94. The statement goes on to make the point that as far as total Government expenditure is concerned there has been a 45 per cent reduction in real terms between 1994 and today. No matter what the spin is, if you have a pun o mince, ye might heat it up but it is still mince. This statement from the Executive goes nowhere near fulfilling the aspirations or addressing the needs of ordinary people the length and breadth of Scotland. I would argue that what is required is for the Executive to go back to the British Westminster Government and to argue for a better settlement for expenditure in this country. To paraphrase an old song, we should send them homewards tae think again.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is little consolation to the man who lost both arms and both legs through a tragic accident, only to be told a number of years later that a transplant will give him back one of his arms. He is still a severely disabled man.

Unfortunately, the minister's statement makes up in no way for the massive reduction in public services and expenditure in public services that we have suffered in the past two decades. The problem is that the statement is part and parcel of new Labour's on-going crusade against public services and in favour of private finance. It shows total disregard for the value and the morale of our public service workers.

Reference was made earlier to a London School of Economics report that, after extensive analysis, clearly exposed the fact that this Government is spending a smaller proportion of its wealth on public services than any other Government in the past 40 years. It is of little consolation to the 200,000 pensioners, of little consolation to the 300,000 poor children and of little consolation to those hundreds of thousands of public service workers to hear talk of prudent finance.

I challenge this Executive to make a strong case to the British Government. We in Scotland must budget with the mere morsels that are given to us, rather than controlling the wealth and the resources of this country as we should. It is time that this Executive went back to Mr Brown to say to him that it is a disgrace that £12 billion is sitting in the public coffers while 200,000 pensioners are poor and while 300,000 children are poor. It is a disgrace and one of which this Executive should be ashamed.

A recent Trades Union Congress report shows that Britain remains bottom of the European league of public investment. Britain is No 15 out of

15. The European Commission's forecast is that we will still be bottom of that European league of public expenditure in the middle of 2000. The TUC's statement shows that when the comprehensive spending review and this Executive's statement are taken into account, we are still spending 25 per cent less on public services in real terms than we did in 1993-94.

The statement goes on to make the point that as far as total Government expenditure is concerned there has been a 45 per cent reduction in real terms between 1994 and today. No matter what the spin is, if you have a pun o mince, ye might heat it up but it is still mince.

This statement from the Executive goes nowhere near fulfilling the aspirations or addressing the needs of ordinary people the length and breadth of Scotland. I would argue that what is required is for the Executive to go back to the British Westminster Government and to argue for a better settlement for expenditure in this country. To paraphrase an old song, we should send them homewards tae think again.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1876E194P490C709286", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Marwick, Tricia", "ID": 1876, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tricia Marwick", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tricia Marwick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 308.0, "ContributionID": 709286, "EditedText": "On a point of order. You have indicated, Presiding Officer, that Mr Tavish Scott is next to be called. I recall that you called him about three speakers ago and he was not in the chamber because, I understand, he was doing a television interview. There are many members who have sat throughout the debate—", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. You have indicated, Presiding Officer, that Mr Tavish Scott is next to be called. I recall that you called him about three speakers ago and he was not in the chamber because, I understand, he was doing a television interview. There are many members who have sat throughout the debate—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C709289", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 314.0, "ContributionID": 709289, "EditedText": "I have turned your microphone off. Mr Scott was not called. I indicated that I was about to call him. Then I realised that he was not here and did not call him. If we press on at the current rate, it should be possible to accommodate everyone who wishes to speak. I take your point, but for that reason we are moving on now.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have turned your microphone off. Mr Scott was not called. I indicated that I was about to call him. Then I realised that he was not here and did not call him. If we press on at the current rate, it should be possible to accommodate everyone who wishes to speak. I take your point, but for that reason we are moving on now.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1811E172P455C709294", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ullrich, Kay", "ID": 1811, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kay Ullrich", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Kay Ullrich: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 326.0, "ContributionID": 709294, "EditedText": "Does Dr Simpson dispute that morbidity and mortality rates are higher in Scotland than in England?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does Dr Simpson dispute that morbidity and mortality rates are higher in Scotland than in England?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C709299", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 337.0, "ContributionID": 709299, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C709307", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 354.0, "ContributionID": 709307, "EditedText": "I was outside doing a television interview, but I will no doubt read it tomorrow. Perhaps the Tories have a different policy in Scotland from the one that they have in the rest of the UK. The expenditure plans demonstrate that the partnership Government is committed to delivering quality public services. Extra investment will be made not just this year, but over the next four years. I welcome today's announcement.", "EditedTextHTML": "I was outside doing a television interview, but I will no doubt read it tomorrow. Perhaps the Tories have a different policy in Scotland from the one that they have in the rest of the UK.

The expenditure plans demonstrate that the partnership Government is committed to delivering quality public services. Extra investment will be made not just this year, but over the next four years. I welcome today's announcement.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709326", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 395.0, "ContributionID": 709326, "EditedText": "Hear, hear.", "EditedTextHTML": "Hear, hear.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C709321", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 385.0, "ContributionID": 709321, "EditedText": "Mr Swinney, please listen for a second. It would have been welcome if, some time during the past six months, SNP members had complained, asked questions and commented on the statement of funding policy and raised these particular issues in the place where the statement was originally published.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Swinney, please listen for a second. It would have been welcome if, some time during the past six months, SNP members had complained, asked questions and commented on the statement of funding policy and raised these particular issues in the place where the statement was originally published.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709328", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Breast Cancer", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26911, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 399.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 399.0, "ID": 26911, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 400.0, "ContributionID": 709328, "EditedText": "We now move to members' business and motion S1M-162 in the name of Pauline McNeill on the subject of breast cancer. The debate will last for 30 minutes. Members who want to speak in the debate should press their buttons as soon as possible so that we can see how many want to participate—I see that quite a lot do. Those who are not taking part in the debate should leave as quickly and quietly as possible to allow the debate to begin.", "EditedTextHTML": "We now move to members' business and motion S1M-162 in the name of Pauline McNeill on the subject of breast cancer. The debate will last for 30 minutes. Members who want to speak in the debate should press their buttons as soon as possible so that we can see how many want to participate—I see that quite a lot do. Those who are not taking part in the debate should leave as quickly and quietly as possible to allow the debate to begin.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1781E188P474C709332", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Breast Cancer", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26911, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 399.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 399.0, "ID": 26911, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McGugan, Irene", "ID": 1781, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Irene McGugan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Irene McGugan (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 408.0, "ContributionID": 709332, "EditedText": "Pauline McNeill is to be commended for bringing this matter to the attention of the Parliament, as are the organisers of Breast Cancer Awareness Month. In Scotland, there is an unacceptably high rate of mortality from breast cancer. It is therefore appropriate to raise awareness among politicians and to express our concern about the issues. I support the campaign that is calling on the Government to match charity investment in breast cancer initiatives pound for pound. At present, charities such as the Scottish Breast Cancer Campaign contribute more than £15 million a year to breast cancer research—75 per cent of the total investment—whereas the Government commits only £4.3 million, despite having stated that cancer is one of its priorities. Greater investment would undoubtedly help to develop more effective treatments and improve public understanding of the disease. The first research centre for breast cancer has recently been established in the UK. However, we read in the newspapers today that the cancer treatment research service in Tayside has acknowledged that it is having trouble meeting the demand for its services as a result of its lack of staff and resources. Cancer beds have been closed. Because screening is routinely available only to women over 50, it is worth taking the initiative to ensure that that screening is not unduly delayed— because of the date on which one's birthday falls, for instance. Within a few months of one's 50th birthday, rather than waiting for almost three years to be called for the next round of locally available screening by a mobile unit—which happens in some areas of Scotland—it is worth insisting on being examined earlier. I am assured that any such individual referral will be actioned, although that often involves personal expense and a greater journey distance. There should be no barriers to access. Much more must be done to stop the suffering and heartache of women and their loved ones. That is why the Government must increase its investment in focused breast cancer research initiatives.", "EditedTextHTML": "Pauline McNeill is to be commended for bringing this matter to the attention of the Parliament, as are the organisers of Breast Cancer Awareness Month.

In Scotland, there is an unacceptably high rate of mortality from breast cancer. It is therefore appropriate to raise awareness among politicians and to express our concern about the issues. I support the campaign that is calling on the Government to match charity investment in breast cancer initiatives pound for pound. At present, charities such as the Scottish Breast Cancer Campaign contribute more than £15 million a year to breast cancer research—75 per cent of the total investment—whereas the Government commits only £4.3 million, despite having stated that cancer is one of its priorities.

Greater investment would undoubtedly help to develop more effective treatments and improve public understanding of the disease. The first research centre for breast cancer has recently been established in the UK. However, we read in the newspapers today that the cancer treatment research service in Tayside has acknowledged that it is having trouble meeting the demand for its services as a result of its lack of staff and resources. Cancer beds have been closed.

Because screening is routinely available only to women over 50, it is worth taking the initiative to

ensure that that screening is not unduly delayed— because of the date on which one's birthday falls, for instance. Within a few months of one's 50th birthday, rather than waiting for almost three years to be called for the next round of locally available screening by a mobile unit—which happens in some areas of Scotland—it is worth insisting on being examined earlier. I am assured that any such individual referral will be actioned, although that often involves personal expense and a greater journey distance. There should be no barriers to access.

Much more must be done to stop the suffering and heartache of women and their loved ones. That is why the Government must increase its investment in focused breast cancer research initiatives.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1820E139P227C709333", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Breast Cancer", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26911, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 399.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 399.0, "ID": 26911, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Curran, Margaret", "ID": 1820, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Baillieston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Curran", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Margaret Curran (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 411.0, "ContributionID": 709333, "EditedText": "From Ruth Picardie's moving columns in The Observer to our everyday experiences, we are becoming aware of the reality of breast cancer and the key issues that surround it—screening, diagnosis and care. Breast cancer is now properly a key component of the health agenda of Scotland. That prominence has been achieved thanks to the campaigns in the charity and voluntary sector, the dedication and professionalism of health service staff at all levels, and the experience and testimony of women themselves. All that work is, at times, inspiring, although at times it is quite terrible. Most of us, through personal experience or the experience of a family member, a friend, neighbour or associate, have become aware of the significance of the disease to the health profile of women in Scotland. We have become aware of the critical strands that demand our attention: awareness, screening, diagnosis, treatment and care. We know that 14,080 women died of breast cancer in Britain in 1995—270 women each week. Eighty per cent of breast cancers occur in postmenopausal women. Equally, we know that we must pay attention to younger women who suffer. My own friend died tragically at the age of 39. She left not only a grieving husband and two young children, but lonely friends, stunned colleagues and children in care in Glasgow who were denied their fierce advocate. There can be no room for complacency as we try to tackle the disease. In the 1980s, Scotland's survival rates compared unfavourably with those of many European countries, although there is now some evidence that survival rates in Scotland are beginning to improve. Screening attendance rates must be tackled. The breast cancer awareness group quoted the clinical resource and audit group report, pointing out that \"high attendance rates are achieved in rural areas whilst in urban areas the minimum standard for attendance is seldom reached—Lanarkshire, Lothian and Greater Glasgow do not meet the minimum standard, despite considerable local effort\". We will always make demands of our medical services, but breast cancer must be considered medically and socially. How are women first told of their diagnosis, and how do they hear it? We must ensure that the complex world of cancer care is made less frightening, less daunting and more responsive to the needs of women. We have their experience and testimony to guide us. Above all else, and particularly in this Breast Cancer Awareness Month, we must not frighten women unduly. We must send out signals of hope, encouragement and support and stress the significance of awareness and of early intervention. I am delighted to join Pauline McNeill in making a small contribution by sponsoring a breakfast for Breakthrough Breast Cancer in the Parliament and by ensuring that this Parliament reinforces the message of awareness and early diagnosis.", "EditedTextHTML": "From Ruth Picardie's moving columns in The Observer to our everyday experiences, we are becoming aware of the reality of breast cancer and the key issues that surround it—screening, diagnosis and care. Breast cancer is now properly a key component of the health agenda of Scotland. That prominence has been achieved thanks to the campaigns in the charity and voluntary sector, the dedication and professionalism of health service staff at all levels, and the experience and testimony of women themselves. All that work is, at times, inspiring, although at times it is quite terrible.

Most of us, through personal experience or the experience of a family member, a friend, neighbour or associate, have become aware of the significance of the disease to the health profile of women in Scotland. We have become aware of the critical strands that demand our attention: awareness, screening, diagnosis, treatment and care. We know that 14,080 women died of breast cancer in Britain in 1995—270 women each week. Eighty per cent of breast cancers occur in postmenopausal women. Equally, we know that we must pay attention to younger women who suffer. My own friend died tragically at the age of 39. She left not only a grieving husband and two young children, but lonely friends, stunned colleagues and children in care in Glasgow who were denied their fierce advocate.

There can be no room for complacency as we try to tackle the disease. In the 1980s, Scotland's survival rates compared unfavourably with those of many European countries, although there is now some evidence that survival rates in Scotland are beginning to improve. Screening attendance rates must be tackled. The breast cancer awareness group quoted the clinical resource and audit group report, pointing out that

\"high attendance rates are achieved in rural areas whilst in urban areas the minimum standard for attendance is seldom reached—Lanarkshire, Lothian and Greater Glasgow do not meet the minimum standard, despite considerable local effort\".

We will always make demands of our medical services, but breast cancer must be considered medically and socially. How are women first told of their diagnosis, and how do they hear it? We must ensure that the complex world of cancer care is made less frightening, less daunting and more responsive to the needs of women. We have their experience and testimony to guide us. Above all else, and particularly in this Breast Cancer Awareness Month, we must not frighten women unduly. We must send out signals of hope, encouragement and support and stress the significance of awareness and of early intervention.

I am delighted to join Pauline McNeill in making a small contribution by sponsoring a breakfast for Breakthrough Breast Cancer in the Parliament and by ensuring that this Parliament reinforces the message of awareness and early diagnosis.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2029E47P167C709345", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Breast Cancer", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26911, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 399.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 399.0, "ID": 26911, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Henry, Hugh", "ID": 2029, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Hugh Henry", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Hugh Henry (Paisley South) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 444.0, "ContributionID": 709345, "EditedText": "Like other members, I congratulate Pauline McNeill on her initiative in securing this debate and on her work. I am aware of some of the issues surrounding breast cancer through the lobbying—if we can still use that word—done by Nancy Allison, the past provost of Renfrewshire Council. A member of Nancy's family suffered from breast cancer. Nancy became an advocate of some of the issues involved. She raised funds and took part in awareness-raising. Her experience was first hand—and I knew the family member who suffered—and she felt the suffering personally. It was harrowing to listen to the ups and downs—the emotional rollercoaster ride—that she and her family went through. No one should have to face that, at least not without full support and attention. I am also aware of other issues, through my experience as a family member. While it was right for Pauline McNeill and others to say that breast cancer is not a class issue, because it affects women of every class—Christine Grahame said that sometimes women from professional backgrounds are as guilty of ignoring the signs and procedures—there is still a class issue that we should not ignore. In poorer communities, women are more likely to suffer the adverse consequences for whatever reason. I am worried that, when women discover a lump, they are sometimes constrained by their circumstances—I saw that at first hand. I do not know what the situation is now—the minister could perhaps bring me up to date—but I know from first-hand experience the worry that a woman experiences when the lump is discovered, and when she has to wait to have the test done. I saw someone who is fundamentally opposed to private medicine not only having to suffer the fear and anxiety caused by discovering the lump, but having to put herself through the torture of saying, \"Should I go to private medicine in order to get the test done? I cannot wait the time that it takes for the test to be done.\" No woman should have to wait that length of time. Every woman, after a lump is discovered, should have the right to immediate access to tests, whether they have the financial wherewithal to have that done or not. Therefore, there is still a class issue: some women in impoverished circumstances do not have the immediate access that other women who can afford it have. By all means, we could have an awareness programme and start to examine some of the broader issues, but, for God's sake, we must not let any woman go through one day of anxiety more than she has to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Like other members, I congratulate Pauline McNeill on her initiative in securing this debate and on her work.

I am aware of some of the issues surrounding breast cancer through the lobbying—if we can still use that word—done by Nancy Allison, the past provost of Renfrewshire Council. A member of Nancy's family suffered from breast cancer. Nancy became an advocate of some of the issues involved. She raised funds and took part in awareness-raising. Her experience was first hand—and I knew the family member who suffered—and she felt the suffering personally. It was harrowing to listen to the ups and downs—the emotional rollercoaster ride—that she and her family went through. No one should have to face that, at least not without full support and attention.

I am also aware of other issues, through my experience as a family member. While it was right for Pauline McNeill and others to say that breast cancer is not a class issue, because it affects women of every class—Christine Grahame said that sometimes women from professional backgrounds are as guilty of ignoring the signs and procedures—there is still a class issue that we should not ignore. In poorer communities, women are more likely to suffer the adverse consequences for whatever reason.

I am worried that, when women discover a lump, they are sometimes constrained by their circumstances—I saw that at first hand. I do not know what the situation is now—the minister could perhaps bring me up to date—but I know from first-hand experience the worry that a woman experiences when the lump is discovered, and when she has to wait to have the test done.

I saw someone who is fundamentally opposed to private medicine not only having to suffer the fear and anxiety caused by discovering the lump, but having to put herself through the torture of saying, \"Should I go to private medicine in order to get the test done? I cannot wait the time that it takes for the test to be done.\" No woman should have to wait that length of time. Every woman, after a lump is discovered, should have the right to immediate access to tests, whether they have the financial wherewithal to have that done or not.

Therefore, there is still a class issue: some women in impoverished circumstances do not have the immediate access that other women who can afford it have.

By all means, we could have an awareness programme and start to examine some of the broader issues, but, for God's sake, we must not let any woman go through one day of anxiety more than she has to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709140", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Wednesday 6 October 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26909, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26909, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 2.0, "ContributionID": 709140, "EditedText": "THE PRESIDING OFFICER opened the meeting at 14:31", "EditedTextHTML": "[THE PRESIDING OFFICER opened the meeting at 14:31]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709141", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Wednesday 6 October 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26909, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26909, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 3.0, "ContributionID": 709141, "EditedText": "Before we start this afternoon's proceedings, may I indicate, as the more observant among you will have noticed, that I am not in Canada, although I announced last week that I would be. In view of the court case brought against the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body by The Scotsman I did not think that it was appropriate for me to be absent. I am, therefore, most grateful to George Reid, who at short notice undertook to make the presentation of the Scottish Parliament to the international conference.", "EditedTextHTML": "Before we start this afternoon's proceedings, may I indicate, as the more observant among you will have noticed, that I am not in Canada, although I announced last week that I would be. In view of the court case brought against the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body by The Scotsman I did not think that it was appropriate for me to be absent. I am, therefore, most grateful to George Reid, who at short notice undertook to make the presentation of the Scottish Parliament to the international conference.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709143", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Wednesday 6 October 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26909, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26909, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 7.0, "ContributionID": 709143, "EditedText": "I am grateful to the member for giving me notice of his point of order— the courtesy is appreciated. However, there is no need for further comment on the matter in the chamber. The committee has decided the remit of its inquiry, all of which is in the public domain. We need say no more about the matter at the moment. On the question of raising more topical issues, I have written to the convener of the Procedures Committee, as the member will know. I understand that the matter will be included among the committee's questions for urgent consideration and that the committee will report back to the Parliament in a few weeks.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful to the member for giving me notice of his point of order— the courtesy is appreciated. However, there is no need for further comment on the matter in the chamber. The committee has decided the remit of its inquiry, all of which is in the public domain. We need say no more about the matter at the moment.

On the question of raising more topical issues, I have written to the convener of the Procedures Committee, as the member will know. I understand that the matter will be included among the committee's questions for urgent consideration and that the committee will report back to the Parliament in a few weeks.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709144", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 10.0, "ContributionID": 709144, "EditedText": "We now move to this afternoon's business, which is a ministerial statement and a debate on the Executive's expenditure plans. Before we begin, I remind members that we are today operating a new procedure for the first time. The ministerial statement will be treated as a two-stage process: the statement, with questions only for clarification, followed by a debate on the statement. Spokespersons from the main non-Executive parties will have the right to ask the first questions and to open the debate. However, all questions should be brief and should seek only elucidation of facts. The chair will enforce that rule strictly and will not allow questions to turn into statements. Members who are called to ask a question will not, in principle, lose their chance to take part in the subsequent debate. There should, therefore, be no interventions during the minister's statement.", "EditedTextHTML": "We now move to this afternoon's business, which is a ministerial statement and a debate on the Executive's expenditure plans. Before we begin, I remind members that we are today operating a new procedure for the first time. The ministerial statement will be treated as a two-stage process: the statement, with questions only for clarification, followed by a debate on the statement. Spokespersons from the main non-Executive parties will have the right to ask the first questions and to open the debate. However, all questions should be brief and should seek only elucidation of facts. The chair will enforce that rule strictly and will not allow questions to turn into statements. Members who are called to ask a question will not, in principle, lose their chance to take part in the subsequent debate. There should, therefore, be no interventions during the minister's statement.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C709150", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 23.0, "ContributionID": 709150, "EditedText": "I distinctly remember Mr Wilson saying last Thursday that we should do more to plan outwith the annuality of the budget exercise and that we should try carry more money over from one year to the next. It is a bit rich that one week later he is complaining that we are doing exactly that.", "EditedTextHTML": "I distinctly remember Mr Wilson saying last Thursday that we should do more to plan outwith the annuality of the budget exercise and that we should try carry more money over from one year to the next. It is a bit rich that one week later he is complaining that we are doing exactly that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C709151", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr David Davidson (North-East Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 25.0, "ContributionID": 709151, "EditedText": "Mr McConnell announced an extra £1,800 million for health and an extra £1,300 million for education. Over which period does that apply?", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr McConnell announced an extra £1,800 million for health and an extra £1,300 million for education. Over which period does that apply?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C709154", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 31.0, "ContributionID": 709154, "EditedText": "That was promised in the partnership agreement and I am delighted to confirm that it exists in today's published figures.", "EditedTextHTML": "That was promised in the partnership agreement and I am delighted to confirm that it exists in today's published figures.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.6077311+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C709161", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan (Falkirk West): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 45.0, "ContributionID": 709161, "EditedText": "Will the expenditure plans include contingency funding to abolish tuition fees and restore student grants, especially if Andrew Cubie's inquiry makes such recommendations?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the expenditure plans include contingency funding to abolish tuition fees and restore student grants, especially if Andrew Cubie's inquiry makes such recommendations?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.6077311+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709164", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 51.0, "ContributionID": 709164, "EditedText": "Before the minister answers that, I should make it clear that the appointment of special advisers does not come out of the parliamentary budget—that must have been a slip of the tongue.", "EditedTextHTML": "Before the minister answers that, I should make it clear that the appointment of special advisers does not come out of the parliamentary budget—that must have been a slip of the tongue.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.6077311+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C709313", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 368.0, "ContributionID": 709313, "EditedText": "Duncan has prompted me on the next line of my speech: the people who will pay for the shortfall in local authority expenditure are the council tax payers. We argued during the election campaign for fair taxation to ensure that money that is spare is invested in public services.", "EditedTextHTML": "Duncan has prompted me on the next line of my speech: the people who will pay for the shortfall in local authority expenditure are the council tax payers. We argued during the election campaign for fair taxation to ensure that money that is spare is invested in public services.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:12:28.4701587+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C709316", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 374.0, "ContributionID": 709316, "EditedText": "The Presiding Officer will tell me to be quiet in a moment, so I will wind up. I welcome what the minister said about trying to extend the value of available public funds. I recall that when I argued that point before the election I was told that it was not a strategy that amounted to very much, but I am delighted that the minister has taken it to the heart of his strategy and done the decent thing and admitted that I argued for it consistently. It is vital that we extend value, but extending value is different from cutting other budgets. That is the essential change that we seek to leverage into this programme. The minister will have our co-operation in developing the strategy of extending value, but he will not have our co-operation in extending the cuts that the Labour party is presiding over. Annabel Goldie made a rather strange analogy with wanting to go into a bar with Jack McConnell. Let me assure him that—Interruption. I see that Annabel Goldie confirms that she would not want to go into a bar with Jack McConnell—I am sorry; I picked that up wrong. The minister has announced a regurgitation of all the statements and announcements that have been made before. This statement contains nothing that is new or different or takes the debate forward, except for the arguments about extending value in the public purse. I am delighted that those arguments came positively and constructively from the SNP before the election.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Presiding Officer will tell me to be quiet in a moment, so I will wind up.

I welcome what the minister said about trying to extend the value of available public funds. I recall that when I argued that point before the election I was told that it was not a strategy that amounted to very much, but I am delighted that the minister has taken it to the heart of his strategy and done the decent thing and admitted that I argued for it consistently.

It is vital that we extend value, but extending value is different from cutting other budgets. That is the essential change that we seek to leverage into this programme. The minister will have our co-operation in developing the strategy of extending value, but he will not have our co-operation in extending the cuts that the Labour party is presiding over.

Annabel Goldie made a rather strange analogy with wanting to go into a bar with Jack McConnell. Let me assure him that—[Interruption.] I see that Annabel Goldie confirms that she would not want to go into a bar with Jack McConnell—I am sorry; I picked that up wrong.

The minister has announced a regurgitation of all the statements and announcements that have been made before. This statement contains nothing that is new or different or takes the debate forward, except for the arguments about extending value in the public purse. I am delighted that those arguments came positively and constructively from the SNP before the election.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:12:28.4701587+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C709320", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 383.0, "ContributionID": 709320, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:12:28.4701587+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C709322", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 387.0, "ContributionID": 709322, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:12:28.4701587+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1857E136P222C709331", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Breast Cancer", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26911, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 399.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 399.0, "ID": 26911, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeill, Pauline", "ID": 1857, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Kelvin" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Pauline McNeill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Pauline McNeill (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 405.0, "ContributionID": 709331, "EditedText": "I have lodged this motion because this is our first meeting in October and October is Breast Cancer Awareness Month. The pink ribbon and its tartan counterpart are symbols of the Scottish Breast Cancer Campaign and I know that those who run the campaign are delighted that we have chosen to debate the subject this evening. I believe that there is support for the formation of an all-party parliamentary group on breast cancer awareness and I welcome the involvement of my colleague Malcolm Chisholm, who is the former secretary of the Westminster all-party group on breast cancer. I hope that he will offer us his expertise. Breast cancer is the most common malignancy experienced by women in Scotland. It is different from other types of cancer in that there are few known ways of preventing the disease. The Scottish Breast Cancer Campaign has pointed out that the chances of winning the national lottery are one in 14 million, but that the number of women who will suffer from breast cancer is one in 12. Breast cancer is the leading cause of death for British women aged between 35 and 49. In total, 3,000 Scottish women each year are affected by breast cancer, accounting for a quarter of all newly diagnosed cases. International figures show that Scotland has the highest rate of breast cancer among developed nations. Surprisingly, the incidence appears to be higher in women from affluent areas than in women from deprived areas. Although nothing can yet be concluded from those statistics, the message is that breast cancer cuts across the class divide. The reasons for that cannot be easily explained. The statistics for breast cancer are endless. They serve a useful purpose in illustrating the need for action but, in language that everyone can understand, they mean that breast cancer threatens all women. The only scientific certainties are that the risk of breast cancer threatens women more the older they get, and that there are few known ways of reducing the incidence of the disease. We can tell smokers that quitting smoking can help reduce their chances of contracting lung disease, and we can tell those of us who are unhealthy eaters that a low-fat diet can reduce the risk of heart disease. However, such known factors do not seem to exist in a way that would allow us to reduce the incidence of breast cancer simply by encouraging people to change their lifestyle. Changing one's lifestyle is important, but it will not necessarily reduce the risk of breast cancer. The strategy must be based on pinpointing the age at which women become most at risk and screening them regularly to catch the disease as early as possible. Breast cancer screening and self-awareness are the only real ways of allowing our doctors to manage breast cancer and attempt to cure it with the least invasion and with a fully supported, high-quality service. Yesterday, I visited the west of Scotland breast screening service, which is based in my constituency, conveniently close to my office. It is always easier to understand the complexities of an issue if one has seen the service at first hand. I told the staff at the centre that the whole Parliament has an interest in breast cancer screening and would be debating the subject this evening. There are seven centres covering the whole of Scotland. Women over 50 years of age are screened and, increasingly, a number of women now refer themselves to the service. That is to be welcomed. More women than ever before are becoming aware of the need for early detection. Although I said that the disease cuts across the class divide, sadly I have to report that the service providers in the west of Scotland are concerned that more women from poorer areas do not come for screening. If a way of dealing with that is not found, many women will not benefit from the ideas that are behind the screening programme. One notable fact about the centre that I mentioned is that it is away from an acute hospital setting—an idea that should be encouraged, as it will help to attract more women to the early detection schemes. I could say much about the need to move to digital equipment, or about the decisions that need to be made regarding whether women should have two diagnostic views taken rather than one, but those matters can be discussed if we decide to form an all-party group. We all know of someone in our lives who has suffered from breast cancer, and we know the devastation that it has caused to many women and their families. I sponsored this motion with my colleague Margaret Curran. We knew that the Parliament would welcome this debate, and we seek support from men as much as from women. It would give women in Scotland a morale boost to know that there are issues over which we can discard our party lines and set an example for other groups. We have tentatively set a date for a breakfast for Breakthrough Breast Cancer, which is to be held in the members' lounge at 09:30 during the last week in October. The idea is to encourage women to change their lifestyles—and perhaps ourselves, at the same time. We will have more details about that. As the Scottish Breast Cancer Campaign pointedly says, do not be afraid; be aware. Today, we can show that women make a difference in this Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have lodged this motion because this is our first meeting in October and October is Breast Cancer Awareness Month. The pink ribbon and its tartan counterpart are symbols of the Scottish Breast Cancer Campaign and I know that those who run the campaign are delighted that we have chosen to debate the subject this evening.

I believe that there is support for the formation of an all-party parliamentary group on breast cancer awareness and I welcome the involvement of my colleague Malcolm Chisholm, who is the former secretary of the Westminster all-party group on breast cancer. I hope that he will offer us his expertise.

Breast cancer is the most common malignancy experienced by women in Scotland. It is different from other types of cancer in that there are few known ways of preventing the disease. The Scottish Breast Cancer Campaign has pointed out that the chances of winning the national lottery are one in 14 million, but that the number of women who will suffer from breast cancer is one in 12.

Breast cancer is the leading cause of death for British women aged between 35 and 49. In total, 3,000 Scottish women each year are affected by breast cancer, accounting for a quarter of all newly diagnosed cases. International figures show that Scotland has the highest rate of breast cancer among developed nations. Surprisingly, the incidence appears to be higher in women from affluent areas than in women from deprived areas. Although nothing can yet be concluded from those statistics, the message is that breast cancer cuts across the class divide. The reasons for that cannot be easily explained.

The statistics for breast cancer are endless. They serve a useful purpose in illustrating the need for action but, in language that everyone can understand, they mean that breast cancer threatens all women. The only scientific certainties are that the risk of breast cancer threatens women more the older they get, and that there are few known ways of reducing the incidence of the disease.

We can tell smokers that quitting smoking can help reduce their chances of contracting lung disease, and we can tell those of us who are unhealthy eaters that a low-fat diet can reduce the risk of heart disease. However, such known factors do not seem to exist in a way that would allow us to reduce the incidence of breast cancer simply by encouraging people to change their lifestyle. Changing one's lifestyle is important, but it will not necessarily reduce the risk of breast cancer.

The strategy must be based on pinpointing the age at which women become most at risk and screening them regularly to catch the disease as early as possible. Breast cancer screening and self-awareness are the only real ways of allowing our doctors to manage breast cancer and attempt to cure it with the least invasion and with a fully supported, high-quality service.

Yesterday, I visited the west of Scotland breast screening service, which is based in my constituency, conveniently close to my office. It is always easier to understand the complexities of an issue if one has seen the service at first hand. I told the staff at the centre that the whole Parliament has an interest in breast cancer screening and would be debating the subject this evening.

There are seven centres covering the whole of Scotland. Women over 50 years of age are screened and, increasingly, a number of women now refer themselves to the service. That is to be welcomed. More women than ever before are becoming aware of the need for early detection.

Although I said that the disease cuts across the class divide, sadly I have to report that the service providers in the west of Scotland are concerned that more women from poorer areas do not come for screening. If a way of dealing with that is not found, many women will not benefit from the ideas that are behind the screening programme. One notable fact about the centre that I mentioned is that it is away from an acute hospital setting—an idea that should be encouraged, as it will help to attract more women to the early detection schemes.

I could say much about the need to move to digital equipment, or about the decisions that need to be made regarding whether women should have two diagnostic views taken rather than one, but those matters can be discussed if we decide to form an all-party group.

We all know of someone in our lives who has suffered from breast cancer, and we know the devastation that it has caused to many women and their families. I sponsored this motion with my colleague Margaret Curran. We knew that the Parliament would welcome this debate, and we seek support from men as much as from women. It would give women in Scotland a morale boost to know that there are issues over which we can discard our party lines and set an example for other groups.

We have tentatively set a date for a breakfast for Breakthrough Breast Cancer, which is to be held in the members' lounge at 09:30 during the last week in October. The idea is to encourage women to change their lifestyles—and perhaps ourselves, at the same time. We will have more details about that.

As the Scottish Breast Cancer Campaign pointedly says, do not be afraid; be aware. Today, we can show that women make a difference in this Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:12:28.4701587+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C709203", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 131.0, "ContributionID": 709203, "EditedText": "If I had managed to catch the eye of the Presiding Officer during questions earlier, I might have raised this point, but perhaps Mr Davidson can help me. The minister said that £29 million of additional expenditure was being allocated to enterprise and lifelong learning but, in my calculations, before the changes, there was to be a cut of £5 million over the next year and a cut of £22 million in the following year. Can Mr Davidson explain how the Government's addition adds up?", "EditedTextHTML": "If I had managed to catch the eye of the Presiding Officer during questions earlier, I might have raised this point, but perhaps Mr Davidson can help me. The minister said that £29 million of additional expenditure was being allocated to enterprise and lifelong learning but, in my calculations, before the changes, there was to be a cut of £5 million over the next year and a cut of £22 million in the following year. Can Mr Davidson explain how the Government's addition adds up?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:09:11.3687532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C709304", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 348.0, "ContributionID": 709304, "EditedText": "Although £80 million sounds a lot of money and anyone with half a brain will welcome new resources in education, does George Lyon accept that the outstanding repairs bill for Scottish schools is in the region of £1 billion? If the extra money is put into that context, it does not sound so great after all.", "EditedTextHTML": "Although £80 million sounds a lot of money and anyone with half a brain will welcome new resources in education, does George Lyon accept that the outstanding repairs bill for Scottish schools is in the region of £1 billion? If the extra money is put into that context, it does not sound so great after all.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:00:25.9901853+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C709142", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Wednesday 6 October 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26909, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26909, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Alex Salmond (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 5.0, "ContributionID": 709142, "EditedText": "On a point of order, Presiding Officer. Further to the point of order raised last week, I want to raise again the question of topicality. How can we bring topical subjects to the floor of the chamber? I do not expect an emergency statement every time there is a U-turn in Government policy on lobbygate—that would be impossible. However, something of great importance to the Parliament happened this week through the excellent work of the Standards Committee: the committee has established the principle that the Executive is responsible to the Parliament through its committees and that the Parliament, through openness, is responsible to the people. Our procedures must allow some way of reflecting on the floor of the chamber the importance of such developments.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order, Presiding Officer. Further to the point of order raised last week, I want to raise again the question of topicality. How can we bring topical subjects to the floor of the chamber? I do not expect an emergency statement every time there is a U-turn in Government policy on lobbygate—that would be impossible. However, something of great importance to the Parliament happened this week through the excellent work of the Standards Committee: the committee has established the principle that the Executive is responsible to the Parliament through its committees and that the Parliament, through openness, is responsible to the people. Our procedures must allow some way of reflecting on the floor of the chamber the importance of such developments.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C709146", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Murray Tosh (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 15.0, "ContributionID": 709146, "EditedText": "Hear, hear. Laughter.", "EditedTextHTML": "

Hear, hear. [Laughter.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C709149", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 21.0, "ContributionID": 709149, "EditedText": "By my calculation, £132 million of new money is a zero-sum budget and the minister says that there are no cuts. How does that square? Is it the case that the money he has spent today is the recycling of underspent budgets that, as we have heard, exist every year?", "EditedTextHTML": "By my calculation, £132 million of new money is a zero-sum budget and the minister says that there are no cuts. How does that square? Is it the case that the money he has spent today is the recycling of underspent budgets that, as we have heard, exist every year?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C709152", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 27.0, "ContributionID": 709152, "EditedText": "It applies to the three-year period of the comprehensive spending review.", "EditedTextHTML": "It applies to the three-year period of the comprehensive spending review.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2140E187P335C709153", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Rumbles, Mike", "ID": 2140, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Rumbles", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Mike Rumbles (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 29.0, "ContributionID": 709153, "EditedText": "Will the minister tell us whether funds will now be made available to establish an appeals procedure for our hard-pressed farmers in their dealings with officialdom?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister tell us whether funds will now be made available to establish an appeals procedure for our hard-pressed farmers in their dealings with officialdom?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.6077311+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C709157", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Richard Simpson (Ochil) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 37.0, "ContributionID": 709157, "EditedText": "Will the minister elaborate on his position on the national health service trusts and the funds retained by the Treasury?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister elaborate on his position on the national health service trusts and the funds retained by the Treasury?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.6077311+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C709158", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 39.0, "ContributionID": 709158, "EditedText": "I take this opportunity to congratulate our officials, who have been discussing that matter with the Treasury for about eight months. It has been agreed that the money will no longer go back to the Treasury but will be retained in Scotland to help with housing debt. That was a good piece of work—well done. It is an example of our new arrangements working well in practice.", "EditedTextHTML": "I take this opportunity to congratulate our officials, who have been discussing that matter with the Treasury for about eight months. It has been agreed that the money will no longer go back to the Treasury but will be retained in Scotland to help with housing debt. That was a good piece of work—well done. It is an example of our new arrangements working well in practice.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.6077311+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C709162", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 47.0, "ContributionID": 709162, "EditedText": "The expenditure plans allow the Parliament to make the expenditure decisions that it needs to. I made it clear in the statement that the relationships—in terms of end-year flexibility and other financial management rules that I want to put in place—will create the opportunity for reserves to exist. It would not be right for us to budget in advance for the outcome of inquiries or decisions that the Parliament might make but which are not yet certain. I reserve the right to come forward with amendments to those budgets when it is appropriate, but for the moment it would be wise to wait for the outcome of the inquiry.", "EditedTextHTML": "The expenditure plans allow the Parliament to make the expenditure decisions that it needs to. I made it clear in the statement that the relationships—in terms of end-year flexibility and other financial management rules that I want to put in place—will create the opportunity for reserves to exist. It would not be right for us to budget in advance for the outcome of inquiries or decisions that the Parliament might make but which are not yet certain. I reserve the right to come forward with amendments to those budgets when it is appropriate, but for the moment it would be wise to wait for the outcome of the inquiry.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.6077311+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C709168", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 59.0, "ContributionID": 709168, "EditedText": "Of course it is a key strategic priority.", "EditedTextHTML": "Of course it is a key strategic priority.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.6077311+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1775E171P452C709175", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeod, Fiona", "ID": 1775, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona McLeod", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona McLeod (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 73.0, "ContributionID": 709175, "EditedText": "Is the £11 million for broad-band technology genuinely new money or is it part of the £144 million that has already been committed? Why has this money been committed ahead of any report from the digital Scotland network?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is the £11 million for broad-band technology genuinely new money or is it part of the £144 million that has already been committed? Why has this money been committed ahead of any report from the digital Scotland network?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C709178", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 79.0, "ContributionID": 709178, "EditedText": "The published lines for local authority expenditure are identical in their intent, purpose and actuality to those that were previously published. They will not include cuts to the Scottish Executive's overall programme of expenditure. It would be wise to leave the question about objective 2 funding until an announcement has been made, which I believe may happen in the fairly near future. I assure Tommy Sheridan that officials of the Scottish Executive, the Scotland Office and I have been working very hard to ensure that the neediest communities in Scotland are represented on the map that is finally agreed.", "EditedTextHTML": "The published lines for local authority expenditure are identical in their intent, purpose and actuality to those that were previously published. They will not include cuts to the Scottish Executive's overall programme of expenditure.

It would be wise to leave the question about objective 2 funding until an announcement has been made, which I believe may happen in the fairly near future. I assure Tommy Sheridan that officials of the Scottish Executive, the Scotland Office and I have been working very hard to ensure that the neediest communities in Scotland are represented on the map that is finally agreed.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C709179", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 81.0, "ContributionID": 709179, "EditedText": "Will the minister clarify the £1,800 million of extra spending on health? The figures that were provided today by the Scottish Executive show an increase not of £1,800 million, but of £546 million—a total of £5,161 million in 2001-02 as opposed to £4,615 million now.", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister clarify the £1,800 million of extra spending on health? The figures that were provided today by the Scottish Executive show an increase not of £1,800 million, but of £546 million—a total of £5,161 million in 2001-02 as opposed to £4,615 million now.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2029E47P167C709183", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Henry, Hugh", "ID": 2029, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Hugh Henry", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Hugh Henry (Paisley South) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 90.0, "ContributionID": 709183, "EditedText": "Given that the people of Scotland rejected independence at the election and are therefore committed to the need for a link with Westminster through the Scotland Office, can the member explain how much it would cost to provide the massive network of embassies that his party advocated? Can he tell us how much it would cost to divorce Scotland from the rest of the United Kingdom?", "EditedTextHTML": "Given that the people of Scotland rejected independence at the election and are therefore committed to the need for a link with Westminster through the Scotland Office, can the member explain how much it would cost to provide the massive network of embassies that his party advocated? Can he tell us how much it would cost to divorce Scotland from the rest of the United Kingdom?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C709189", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr David Davidson (North-East Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 103.0, "ContributionID": 709189, "EditedText": "I will do my best to follow their lead, Presiding Officer. I congratulate the minister on his professional delivery. In his former role as chief enforcer for the Labour party in Scotland, he defended the party's cause and tidied things up where necessary. That role has given him strength today and has given him a lot of words—I should stop there: he has given us a lot of words, but not much substance. As we live in an age of openness and disclosure, I wonder if honest Jack will declare that he is a member of the magic circle and that that is where he gets the ability to make the same money appear again and again. That is a talent that Labour has developed in its two-and-a-half years in government. Recycling has been mentioned already, but the people of Scotland deserve better than that: they deserve clearer statements of where their money is going to be spent. The statement is in main head form only. We accept that the committees have a wonderful role to play in the Parliament—they have the ability properly to scrutinise the details that we hope to receive in the weeks to come. However, we need an assurance that the Scottish Executive will not adopt the practice of Tony Blair, and make statements outwith the chamber or the committees. I ask the minister to ensure that the Finance Committee is given regular spend-to-date information so that it can properly scrutinise all ministerial departments' responsibilities. Without it, neither the Finance Committee nor the Audit Committee can do their work. Mr Lyon—I see that he has vacated the chamber again—and his colleagues will claim that they steered the budget. In fact, we know that the Executive is able to deal with the Liberal Democrats' small requests in the partnership agreement well within budget capabilities. However, in answering a question on whether university fees should be abolished, the minister gave the distinct impression that he was not for moving and was not prepared to address the subject. Will any of the Liberal Democrats, when they eventually stand up, clarify whether the minister can find the money to deal with the abolition of tuition fees, and how long he will have to do so, should that be the recommendation of the Cubie committee?", "EditedTextHTML": "I will do my best to follow their lead, Presiding Officer.

I congratulate the minister on his professional delivery. In his former role as chief enforcer for the Labour party in Scotland, he defended the party's cause and tidied things up where necessary. That

role has given him strength today and has given him a lot of words—I should stop there: he has given us a lot of words, but not much substance.

As we live in an age of openness and disclosure, I wonder if honest Jack will declare that he is a member of the magic circle and that that is where he gets the ability to make the same money appear again and again. That is a talent that Labour has developed in its two-and-a-half years in government. Recycling has been mentioned already, but the people of Scotland deserve better than that: they deserve clearer statements of where their money is going to be spent.

The statement is in main head form only. We accept that the committees have a wonderful role to play in the Parliament—they have the ability properly to scrutinise the details that we hope to receive in the weeks to come. However, we need an assurance that the Scottish Executive will not adopt the practice of Tony Blair, and make statements outwith the chamber or the committees.

I ask the minister to ensure that the Finance Committee is given regular spend-to-date information so that it can properly scrutinise all ministerial departments' responsibilities. Without it, neither the Finance Committee nor the Audit Committee can do their work.

Mr Lyon—I see that he has vacated the chamber again—and his colleagues will claim that they steered the budget. In fact, we know that the Executive is able to deal with the Liberal Democrats' small requests in the partnership agreement well within budget capabilities. However, in answering a question on whether university fees should be abolished, the minister gave the distinct impression that he was not for moving and was not prepared to address the subject.

Will any of the Liberal Democrats, when they eventually stand up, clarify whether the minister can find the money to deal with the abolition of tuition fees, and how long he will have to do so, should that be the recommendation of the Cubie committee?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709198", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 121.0, "ContributionID": 709198, "EditedText": "There can be only one member on their feet at one time. Mr Davidson is not giving way.", "EditedTextHTML": "There can be only one member on their feet at one time. Mr Davidson is not giving way.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C709204", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Davidson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 133.0, "ContributionID": 709204, "EditedText": "I am sorry, but I am not responsible for the maths teacher that Mr McConnell once was. The Minister for Finance and the First Minister came to this Parliament to establish Labour's credibility as a party that sought to create an enterprise culture in Scotland. We have got to get a grip in this Parliament. We need to consider wealth creation; that produces jobs and is the way forward in Scotland. We hear time after time in different committees—we have heard from Henry McLeish—the various local enterprise issues that members raise.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry, but I am not responsible for the maths teacher that Mr McConnell once was.

The Minister for Finance and the First Minister came to this Parliament to establish Labour's

credibility as a party that sought to create an enterprise culture in Scotland. We have got to get a grip in this Parliament. We need to consider wealth creation; that produces jobs and is the way forward in Scotland.

We hear time after time in different committees—we have heard from Henry McLeish—the various local enterprise issues that members raise.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C709206", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Davidson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 137.0, "ContributionID": 709206, "EditedText": "If I let Mr McConnell in, will he give a further statement on where money is coming from?", "EditedTextHTML": "If I let Mr McConnell in, will he give a further statement on where money is coming from?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C709208", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Davidson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 141.0, "ContributionID": 709208, "EditedText": "If that was a statement of intent, I welcome it. We look forward to Henry McLeish coming to the chamber in the next few weeks to give us some details of the way in which he intends to rejig the system, because to date, Mr McConnell, we have had little evidence that the Labour party has accepted the full thrust of enterprise. One subject—the use of roll-forward budgets— bothers me tremendously. I am sure that it also bothers other members—Andrew Wilson has already referred to it. Traditionally, we are led to understand—Interruption. Frank, Jack, is it all right if I speak? Sure? Thank you very much. We are assured that 1 to 2 per cent of the budget has, traditionally, not been spent. That allows for little fluctuations in spending and so on. What the minister is offering today is obviously what he is using last year's roll-forward for. It would have been interesting to know what that figure was, but we have not heard it. What I want from the minister, in front of the chamber, is a categorical assurance that in future such surpluses, if rolled forward, will be drawn down during the budget year and used to reinforce the infrastructure and the structures of Scotland, and not gathered up over three years into a potential war chest of £1 billion. If Mr McConnell sits on the money, that is what he will have and it is the last thing that will do the public credibility of this Parliament any good. Many of my colleagues will pick up on detailed points related to their particular briefs, so I will not go into those points. We have had an awful lot of words and very little information today. The Executive is beholden to accelerate ministers' coming to this chamber and the committees and issuing detailed plans on how they intend to spend the money that the minister wishes to allocate to them, so that Parliament can get on with its job of scrutiny. I am disappointed. I had hoped that, with our new start, we would have had far more clarity of vision and—", "EditedTextHTML": "If that was a statement of intent, I welcome it. We look forward to Henry McLeish coming to the chamber in the next few weeks to give us some details of the way in which he intends to rejig the system, because to date, Mr McConnell, we have had little evidence that the Labour party has accepted the full thrust of enterprise.

One subject—the use of roll-forward budgets— bothers me tremendously. I am sure that it also bothers other members—Andrew Wilson has already referred to it. Traditionally, we are led to understand—[Interruption.] Frank, Jack, is it all right if I speak? Sure? Thank you very much.

We are assured that 1 to 2 per cent of the budget has, traditionally, not been spent. That allows for little fluctuations in spending and so on. What the minister is offering today is obviously what he is using last year's roll-forward for. It would have been interesting to know what that figure was, but we have not heard it.

What I want from the minister, in front of the chamber, is a categorical assurance that in future such surpluses, if rolled forward, will be drawn down during the budget year and used to reinforce the infrastructure and the structures of Scotland, and not gathered up over three years into a potential war chest of £1 billion. If Mr McConnell sits on the money, that is what he will have and it is the last thing that will do the public credibility of this Parliament any good.

Many of my colleagues will pick up on detailed points related to their particular briefs, so I will not go into those points. We have had an awful lot of words and very little information today. The Executive is beholden to accelerate ministers' coming to this chamber and the committees and issuing detailed plans on how they intend to spend the money that the minister wishes to allocate to them, so that Parliament can get on with its job of scrutiny.

I am disappointed. I had hoped that, with our new start, we would have had far more clarity of vision and—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C709210", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Davidson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 145.0, "ContributionID": 709210, "EditedText": "I am beginning to wind up. Is it of desperate need?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am beginning to wind up. Is it of desperate need?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709212", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 149.0, "ContributionID": 709212, "EditedText": "There can be only one member on their feet at a time.", "EditedTextHTML": "There can be only one member on their feet at a time.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C709216", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Keith Raffan (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 158.0, "ContributionID": 709216, "EditedText": "After the two grudging speeches from the Opposition parties, I warmly welcome the minister's statement. The Opposition spokesmen have been grudging and nit-picking, and that is all that they can be because the comprehensive nature of the statement has taken the wind out of their sails. That was quite clear from Mr Wilson's speech and from Mr Davidson's. The fact is—everybody in the chamber knows it now, and everybody in Scotland will know it by the time that they have seen the evening news—that the partnership agreement has delivered today. Most important, as my colleague Ian Jenkins mentioned, it has delivered an extra £80 million for Scottish education. It will deliver more teachers— 500 of them—as well as new books and better equipment for every school, every classroom and every child and pupil in Scotland. It has delivered an extra £30 million to pay for 500 extra teachers and an extra £21 million to pay for new books and equipment. That amounts to an extra £8,000 per school or an extra £24 per pupil. It would have been nice—although it would have been a surprise—if the Opposition spokesmen had acknowledged those spending allocations.", "EditedTextHTML": "After the two grudging speeches from the Opposition parties, I warmly welcome the minister's statement. The Opposition spokesmen have been grudging and nit-picking, and that is all that they can be because the comprehensive nature of the statement has taken the wind out of their sails. That was quite clear from Mr Wilson's speech and from Mr Davidson's.

The fact is—everybody in the chamber knows it now, and everybody in Scotland will know it by the time that they have seen the evening news—that the partnership agreement has delivered today. Most important, as my colleague Ian Jenkins mentioned, it has delivered an extra £80 million for Scottish education. It will deliver more teachers— 500 of them—as well as new books and better equipment for every school, every classroom and every child and pupil in Scotland. It has delivered an extra £30 million to pay for 500 extra teachers and an extra £21 million to pay for new books and equipment. That amounts to an extra £8,000 per school or an extra £24 per pupil.

It would have been nice—although it would have been a surprise—if the Opposition spokesmen had acknowledged those spending allocations.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1775E171P452C709217", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeod, Fiona", "ID": 1775, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona McLeod", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona McLeod: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 160.0, "ContributionID": 709217, "EditedText": "Will Mr Raffan give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr Raffan give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C709218", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 162.0, "ContributionID": 709218, "EditedText": "I will not give way. I have a shorter time in which to make my speech than was given to the other front-bench members, and I have a lot to say in response to the points that they made. Members of the SNP ought to listen to my point. They have glossed over the fact that a lot of extra resources have been allocated to education. I shall return shortly to Mr Davidson's point about small requests and small amounts. Money has not been given only to pupils. An extra £9 million has been—MEMBERS: \"What about students?\" I am glad that that has been mentioned. I am not avoiding the issue of students; I am about to come to that very point. In fact, an extra £9 million is being allocated to encourage pupils from low-income families to go on to higher education, because this coalition Government aims to widen access to higher education. There will also be an extra £14 million to help students in greatest need. Everyone in the coalition partnership supports students, and I wish that the same were true of the unholy alliance between the Opposition parties. The extra £80 million on education will be spent because of the partnership agreement between the Liberal Democrats and Labour; it would not have been spent without it. That is the simple message that goes out today from the chamber to every part of Scotland: the partnership is working for the Scottish people; it is delivering for them; and this is just the beginning. In drawing up future expenditure plans, we in the partnership will work together to ensure that that spending is in line with the policy priorities outlined in the agreement. That means that our first priority is still more public investment in Scotland's future—and that is what Scotland's pupils are. Scotland's share of any extra money that the Chancellor of the Exchequer is able to find—and I hope that he will not sit on the lid of his so-called war chest for too much longer—will be spent where the partnership has already agreed that it is most needed: in our schools and in our classrooms. I wanted to ask the minister about drugs. He mentioned that there would be £10.5 million of new money for the drugs enforcement agency. I have spoken before in the chamber about the need to correct what I and many other members perceive to be an imbalance in our spending on tackling drug misuse, leaving too little money for treatment and aftercare, prevention and education. I am glad that he has announced a comprehensive audit of all resources directed towards education and rehabilitation, but I would be grateful if, when he winds up, he would let us know the deadline for that audit. Money for treatment and aftercare is desperately needed. There are 120 beds in Scotland for in-patient residential treatment for addicts, but there are 5,000 addicts in the Fife part of my regional constituency alone. The Tories like to see themselves as the party of good economic management, thrift, prudence and value for money, and we heard all that from Mr Davidson today. That is how they like to see themselves, but we do not. Nor does Norman Lamont, and he was a Tory chancellor. Poor Norman, waiting outside the door of John Major's room as not millions but billions were lost to Britain. It is no wonder that Mr Davidson says that £80 million is paltry. Eighty million pounds is a very small sum compared with the amount that the Tories lost on Black Wednesday. It was not £80 million that they lost; it was billions and billions of pounds, and it is time that they showed some humility about their appalling record of economic mismanagement.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will not give way. I have a shorter time in which to make my speech than was given to the other front-bench members, and I have a lot to say in response to the points that they made.

Members of the SNP ought to listen to my point. They have glossed over the fact that a lot of extra resources have been allocated to education. I shall return shortly to Mr Davidson's point about small requests and small amounts. Money has not been given only to pupils. An extra £9 million has been—[MEMBERS: \"What about students?\"] I am glad that that has been mentioned. I am not avoiding the issue of students; I am about to come to that very point.

In fact, an extra £9 million is being allocated to encourage pupils from low-income families to go on to higher education, because this coalition Government aims to widen access to higher education. There will also be an extra £14 million to help students in greatest need. Everyone in the coalition partnership supports students, and I wish that the same were true of the unholy alliance between the Opposition parties.

The extra £80 million on education will be spent because of the partnership agreement between the Liberal Democrats and Labour; it would not have been spent without it. That is the simple message that goes out today from the chamber to every part of Scotland: the partnership is working for the Scottish people; it is delivering for them; and this is just the beginning. In drawing up future expenditure plans, we in the partnership will work together to ensure that that spending is in line with the policy priorities outlined in the agreement. That means that our first priority is still more public investment in Scotland's future—and that is what Scotland's pupils are. Scotland's share of any extra money that the Chancellor of the Exchequer is able to find—and I hope that he will not sit on the lid of his so-called war chest for too much longer—will be spent where the partnership has already agreed that it is most needed: in our schools and in our classrooms.

I wanted to ask the minister about drugs. He mentioned that there would be £10.5 million of new money for the drugs enforcement agency. I have spoken before in the chamber about the need to correct what I and many other members perceive to be an imbalance in our spending on tackling drug misuse, leaving too little money for treatment and aftercare, prevention and education. I am glad that he has announced a comprehensive audit of all resources directed towards education and rehabilitation, but I would be grateful if, when he winds up, he would let us know the deadline for that audit. Money for treatment and aftercare is desperately needed. There are 120 beds in Scotland for in-patient residential treatment for addicts, but there are 5,000 addicts in the Fife part of my regional constituency alone.

The Tories like to see themselves as the party of good economic management, thrift, prudence and value for money, and we heard all that from Mr Davidson today. That is how they like to see themselves, but we do not. Nor does Norman Lamont, and he was a Tory chancellor. Poor Norman, waiting outside the door of John Major's room as not millions but billions were lost to Britain. It is no wonder that Mr Davidson says that £80 million is paltry. Eighty million pounds is a very small sum compared with the amount that the

Tories lost on Black Wednesday. It was not £80 million that they lost; it was billions and billions of pounds, and it is time that they showed some humility about their appalling record of economic mismanagement.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C709220", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 166.0, "ContributionID": 709220, "EditedText": "I shall not give way. Enough self- inflicted damage has been suffered by the Tories this week at Blackpool, without my giving way to Mr Davidson to allow even more. I am a kindly man. The Tories are in great pain as a party, and I do not want to talk about them too much. All that I will add concerns Miss Goldie's speech of last week, about inadequate public transport— \"inadequate public transport\" is what she said. She and the Tories should know all about that. They cut spending on roads by nearly 40 per cent, between 1994 and 1997, from £247 million to £162 million. The minister today announced an increase of £35 million. That will not go far enough, in the long term, but it is a good start. On public transport, the Tories have shown zero tolerance—literally zero. They reduced grants for local authorities to support public transport to zero: zero money for local roads, zero money for bus lanes and zero money for bus stations. While the Tories go back to basics, what do that lot on my left—they are on the left geographically, not in any political sense—want to do? The SNP wants to go back to the blackboard. The minister today announced a welcome increase of £11 million for the national grid for learning, but the SNP wants to scrap it. No wonder, then, that University of Glasgow students told me earlier this week that they view the two Opposition parties as indistinguishable: they regard the SNP as photocopy Tories. It is our coalition that is giving the lead in Scotland, and we are providing the quality debate. I only wish that those parties would provide quality Opposition.", "EditedTextHTML": "I shall not give way. Enough self- inflicted damage has been suffered by the Tories this week at Blackpool, without my giving way to Mr Davidson to allow even more. I am a kindly man. The Tories are in great pain as a party, and I do not want to talk about them too much.

All that I will add concerns Miss Goldie's speech of last week, about inadequate public transport— \"inadequate public transport\" is what she said. She and the Tories should know all about that. They cut spending on roads by nearly 40 per cent, between 1994 and 1997, from £247 million to £162 million. The minister today announced an increase of £35 million. That will not go far enough, in the long term, but it is a good start. On public transport, the Tories have shown zero tolerance—literally zero. They reduced grants for local authorities to support public transport to zero: zero money for local roads, zero money for bus lanes and zero money for bus stations.

While the Tories go back to basics, what do that lot on my left—they are on the left geographically, not in any political sense—want to do? The SNP wants to go back to the blackboard. The minister today announced a welcome increase of £11 million for the national grid for learning, but the SNP wants to scrap it. No wonder, then, that University of Glasgow students told me earlier this week that they view the two Opposition parties as indistinguishable: they regard the SNP as photocopy Tories. It is our coalition that is giving the lead in Scotland, and we are providing the quality debate. I only wish that those parties would provide quality Opposition.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2142E142P230C709227", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Watson, Mike", "ID": 2142, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Cathcart" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Watson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mike Watson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 181.0, "ContributionID": 709227, "EditedText": "The only rift that I have is a resultof my lunch. I am a member of a very small club. It does not have many members, and not many of them are members of the Scottish National party. I like Duncan Hamilton, but he tries too hard and he is again trying to be too clever. Ten minutes ago, we did an interview on the \"Holyrood\" programme. What I was talking about was the reallocation of resources for this year. The new money was made perfectly clear in the minister's statement. We did not go into that detail in the television debate, and it is not relevant to what we are talking about. The SNP is trying to get us off the main track of the good news that was announced in the finance minister's statement. We should pay tribute to the fact that we have a new, three-way process for managing Scotland's public finances. We have not had that in the past. We now have openness and accountability. When we get the draft budget lines for this and subsequent years, they will be worked up into a Budget Bill. We will have the opportunity to go into that in far greater detail than has previously been the case, in committee and in the chamber, and the public will have their input, too. Cannot the Scottish National party welcome that, rather than quibbling about pennies here and there; new money, old money? The minister's statement is perfectly clear about where we are and where we are going. That has not been the case in the past. What is most encouraging in the statement is the new use of year-end flexibility. That means that money does not have to be spent in a rush towards the end of the year—often unwisely—and that unspent money does not have to be returned to the Treasury. That will have a major impact on Scotland's public finances and it is part of a new way forward, a more positive, open and accountable way of running our finances. The statement is to be welcomed. This is the Scottish Parliament getting down seriously to business.", "EditedTextHTML": "The only rift that I have is a result

of my lunch. I am a member of a very small club. It does not have many members, and not many of them are members of the Scottish National party. I like Duncan Hamilton, but he tries too hard and he is again trying to be too clever.

Ten minutes ago, we did an interview on the \"Holyrood\" programme. What I was talking about was the reallocation of resources for this year. The new money was made perfectly clear in the minister's statement. We did not go into that detail in the television debate, and it is not relevant to what we are talking about. The SNP is trying to get us off the main track of the good news that was announced in the finance minister's statement.

We should pay tribute to the fact that we have a new, three-way process for managing Scotland's public finances. We have not had that in the past. We now have openness and accountability. When we get the draft budget lines for this and subsequent years, they will be worked up into a Budget Bill. We will have the opportunity to go into that in far greater detail than has previously been the case, in committee and in the chamber, and the public will have their input, too. Cannot the Scottish National party welcome that, rather than quibbling about pennies here and there; new money, old money? The minister's statement is perfectly clear about where we are and where we are going. That has not been the case in the past.

What is most encouraging in the statement is the new use of year-end flexibility. That means that money does not have to be spent in a rush towards the end of the year—often unwisely—and that unspent money does not have to be returned to the Treasury. That will have a major impact on Scotland's public finances and it is part of a new way forward, a more positive, open and accountable way of running our finances. The statement is to be welcomed. This is the Scottish Parliament getting down seriously to business.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2159E115P214C709233", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Martin, Paul", "ID": 2159, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Springburn" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Paul Martin", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Paul Martin: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 194.0, "ContributionID": 709233, "EditedText": "Kenny has been critical of the financial plan that Jack McConnell put forward, but can he tell me where the SNP will make a difference? What will it suggest as an alternative to Jack McConnell's plan? He can phone a friend, or do whatever he likes to get an answer.", "EditedTextHTML": "Kenny has been critical of the financial plan that Jack McConnell put forward, but can he tell me where the SNP will make a difference? What will it suggest as an alternative to Jack McConnell's plan? He can phone a friend, or do whatever he likes to get an answer.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1837E108P186C709235", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mulligan, Mary", "ID": 1837, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Linlithgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Mulligan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Mary Mulligan (Linlithgow) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 199.0, "ContributionID": 709235, "EditedText": "I welcome today's announcement of an additional £80 million for education and children. The £30 million that has been allocated to fund 500 additional teaching posts must be welcomed by everyone in the chamber. Unfortunately, it has not been. I hope that that money will continue to fulfil Labour's desire to reduce class sizes. A commitment was given, and is being fulfilled, to reduce the number of children in classes in P1 to P3 to 30 or fewer by August 2001, but more money for teachers will allow that policy to be continued throughout the rest of children's schooling: in fact, up to S2. The £21 million for books and equipment will also be welcomed. Shortly before the elections to this Parliament, there was criticism from the SNP that new Labour's proposal to extend the national grid for learning was at the expense of providing more books and equipment. I never believed that it was an either/or situation. We must continue teaching children about information technology, but we also recognise the importance of books and equipment. We know how the Tories reduced education spending, so that children had fewer books and had to share the books that they did have, and teachers had to spend half their time photocopying to enable classes to be held. I welcome this money.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome today's announcement of an additional £80 million for education and children. The £30 million that has been allocated to fund 500 additional teaching posts must be welcomed by everyone in the chamber. Unfortunately, it has not been. I hope that that money will continue to fulfil Labour's desire to reduce class sizes. A commitment was given, and is being fulfilled, to reduce the number of children in classes in P1 to P3 to 30 or fewer by August 2001, but more money for teachers will allow that policy to be continued throughout the rest of children's schooling: in fact, up to S2.

The £21 million for books and equipment will also be welcomed. Shortly before the elections to this Parliament, there was criticism from the SNP that new Labour's proposal to extend the national grid for learning was at the expense of providing more books and equipment. I never believed that it was an either/or situation. We must continue teaching children about information technology, but we also recognise the importance of books and equipment. We know how the Tories reduced education spending, so that children had fewer books and had to share the books that they did have, and teachers had to spend half their time photocopying to enable classes to be held. I welcome this money.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1775E171P452C709236", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeod, Fiona", "ID": 1775, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona McLeod", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona McLeod: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 201.0, "ContributionID": 709236, "EditedText": "Mary was at the meeting of the Education, Culture and Sport Committee when Mr Galbraith made it clear that he would not provide more money to fund the teachers' pay settlement this year. Does she think that that will help our children's education?", "EditedTextHTML": "Mary was at the meeting of the Education, Culture and Sport Committee when Mr Galbraith made it clear that he would not provide more money to fund the teachers' pay settlement this year. Does she think that that will help our children's education?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1837E108P186C709237", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mulligan, Mary", "ID": 1837, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Linlithgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Mulligan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Mulligan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 203.0, "ContributionID": 709237, "EditedText": "Sam Galbraith never said that he would not provide additional money to fund the teachers' pay settlement. He said that we have to allow the teachers and their unions to negotiate a pay settlement, and at that stage it is their prerogative to discuss the issue with the minister. He never ruled out additional money, because we have not reached that situation yet. The fact that SNP members keep returning to hypothetical situations instead of living in the real world, like the rest of us, shows how unrealistic they are. We are now investing in books. I agree with Keith Raffan, who spoke of the unholy alliance between the SNP and the Tories in their grudging recognition of the additional money. What worries me most about debates such as this is the way in which we argue whether facts and figures are true or false, or whether it is new or old money. The money that has been announced today is part of fulfilling the agreed policies that the partnership is implementing. It strikes me that the real worry is coming from the SNP and the Conservatives, who are not willing to deal with real life and to come forward with some realistic proposals of their own.", "EditedTextHTML": "Sam Galbraith never said that he would not provide additional money to fund the teachers' pay settlement. He said that we have to allow the teachers and their unions to negotiate a pay settlement, and at that stage it is their prerogative to discuss the issue with the minister. He never ruled out additional money, because we have not reached that situation yet. The fact that SNP members keep returning to hypothetical situations instead of living in the real world, like the rest of us, shows how unrealistic they are.

We are now investing in books. I agree with Keith Raffan, who spoke of the unholy alliance between the SNP and the Tories in their grudging recognition of the additional money.

What worries me most about debates such as this is the way in which we argue whether facts and figures are true or false, or whether it is new or old money. The money that has been announced today is part of fulfilling the agreed policies that the partnership is implementing. It strikes me that the real worry is coming from the SNP and the Conservatives, who are not willing to deal with real life and to come forward with some realistic proposals of their own.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C709238", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ms Patricia Ferguson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 205.0, "ContributionID": 709238, "EditedText": "I had intended to call Murray Tosh next, but unfortunately he is not in the chamber. Instead, I call Phil Gallie.", "EditedTextHTML": "I had intended to call Murray Tosh next, but unfortunately he is not in the chamber. Instead, I call Phil Gallie.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C709239", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 208.0, "ContributionID": 709239, "EditedText": "At the beginning of his remarks, Mr McConnell forecast that there would be some facile political point scoring. Ironically, he started off his speech exactly along those lines. Jack seems quite prepared to lash it out, but he does not like to get it back. Mr McConnell should be grateful to this part ofthe chamber, because the Labour party inherited a great legacy from the Tory Government that has enabled the Labour Government to do well economically. That is not just the view of members on the Conservative benches—", "EditedTextHTML": "At the beginning of his remarks, Mr McConnell forecast that there would be some facile political point scoring. Ironically, he started off his speech exactly along those lines. Jack seems quite prepared to lash it out, but he does not like to get it back.

Mr McConnell should be grateful to this part of

the chamber, because the Labour party inherited a great legacy from the Tory Government that has enabled the Labour Government to do well economically. That is not just the view of members on the Conservative benches—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C709244", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 218.0, "ContributionID": 709244, "EditedText": "I notice that Mr Gallie is wearing a pound sign badge that he presumably bought in Blackpool this week. That is appropriate for a finance debate. Does Mr Gallie agree with Margaret Thatcher's prejudiced remark at last night's Scottish night at the Conservative party conference, that all the problems that this country—and perhaps the whole world—has faced for the past several decades have been created by mainland Europe and that the only solutions to those problems have come from the English-speaking world?", "EditedTextHTML": "I notice that Mr Gallie is wearing a pound sign badge that he presumably bought in Blackpool this week. That is appropriate for a finance debate.

Does Mr Gallie agree with Margaret Thatcher's prejudiced remark at last night's Scottish night at the Conservative party conference, that all the problems that this country—and perhaps the whole world—has faced for the past several decades have been created by mainland Europe and that the only solutions to those problems have come from the English-speaking world?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C709246", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 222.0, "ContributionID": 709246, "EditedText": "Major did that.", "EditedTextHTML": "Major did that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C709249", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 228.0, "ContributionID": 709249, "EditedText": "Not just yet—I am being timed on my four minutes. We very much welcome the drugs enforcement agency. Last week in the chamber, Angus MacKay suggested that £4 million would be provided to cover the costs of 200 extra policemen. At that time, I said that the costs would be nearer £12 million. I am absolutely delighted that Jack McConnell said today that £10.5 million would be made available. I was rubbished by Angus MacKay for an off-the-cuff remark, but it seems that my figures were correct. I welcome the minister's acknowledgement of that. Having complimented the minister, I have to say that I am pretty concerned about expenditure on police. No additional resources are going into the police service. When the Tories left office, £29 million was being spent on the police, and the same is still being spent today. I recognise that there are difficulties. Central Government provides 51 per cent of police funding, with the other 49 per cent topped up by local authorities, which suggests that the matching funding that we all want is not always there. There has been a reduction in the number of serving police officers in the Scottish police service. The Strathclyde area, for example, has a shortage of 350 officers. In his speech, Mr McConnell put forward the vision of \"a country … where our families can raise their children, safe\"— when they play— \"a country … where our senior citizens live at peace, in safe neighbourhoods\". The fact is that crime is rising under Labour, and no provision was made to counter that in Mr McConnell's comments.", "EditedTextHTML": "Not just yet—I am being timed on my four minutes.

We very much welcome the drugs enforcement agency. Last week in the chamber, Angus MacKay suggested that £4 million would be provided to cover the costs of 200 extra policemen. At that time, I said that the costs would be nearer £12 million. I am absolutely delighted that Jack McConnell said today that £10.5 million would be made available. I was rubbished by Angus MacKay for an off-the-cuff remark, but it seems that my figures were correct. I welcome the minister's acknowledgement of that.

Having complimented the minister, I have to say that I am pretty concerned about expenditure on police. No additional resources are going into the police service. When the Tories left office, £29 million was being spent on the police, and the same is still being spent today. I recognise that there are difficulties. Central Government provides 51 per cent of police funding, with the other 49 per cent topped up by local authorities, which suggests that the matching funding that we all want is not always there.

There has been a reduction in the number of serving police officers in the Scottish police service. The Strathclyde area, for example, has a shortage of 350 officers. In his speech, Mr McConnell put forward the vision of

\"a country … where our families can raise their children, safe\"— when they play—

\"a country … where our senior citizens live at peace, in safe neighbourhoods\".

The fact is that crime is rising under Labour, and no provision was made to counter that in Mr McConnell's comments.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C709250", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 230.0, "ContributionID": 709250, "EditedText": "Can you wind up, please?", "EditedTextHTML": "Can you wind up, please?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C709251", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 232.0, "ContributionID": 709251, "EditedText": "If Mr McConnell says that the issue will be re-examined at some point, he has our word that we will enter into partnership with the Labour party to bring about greater expenditure on law and order. However, we must examine the figures. Expenditure on justice in 1994-95 was £513 million; for 2001-02, it is £512 million. That is a reduction of £1 million over a period of six or seven years. That does not give us real confidence in Labour's original pledge to be tough on crime.", "EditedTextHTML": "If Mr McConnell says that the issue will be re-examined at some point, he has our word that we will enter into partnership with the Labour party to bring about greater expenditure on law and order. However, we must examine the figures. Expenditure on justice in 1994-95 was £513 million; for 2001-02, it is £512 million. That is a reduction of £1 million over a period of six or seven years. That does not give us real confidence in Labour's original pledge to be tough on crime.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C709252", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 234.0, "ContributionID": 709252, "EditedText": "Please wind up, Mr Gallie.", "EditedTextHTML": "Please wind up, Mr Gallie.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C709254", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 238.0, "ContributionID": 709254, "EditedText": "The minister shakes his head. Istand to be corrected. If he can give me detailed figures that show that support for victims of crime will go up, he will have the support of the Conservatives. He talked about legal aid. Interruption. In fact, I do not think that he talked about legal aid, but it is an issue that he must reconsider. Once again, financial support for legal aid is falling. Finally—", "EditedTextHTML": "The minister shakes his head. I

stand to be corrected. If he can give me detailed figures that show that support for victims of crime will go up, he will have the support of the Conservatives. He talked about legal aid. [Interruption.] In fact, I do not think that he talked about legal aid, but it is an issue that he must reconsider. Once again, financial support for legal aid is falling.

Finally—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C709255", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 240.0, "ContributionID": 709255, "EditedText": "On a point of order, Presiding Officer. The member has overrun by some minutes.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order, Presiding Officer. The member has overrun by some minutes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C709256", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 242.0, "ContributionID": 709256, "EditedText": "Not quite, Mr Wilson. Mr Gallie will close in one sentence.", "EditedTextHTML": "Not quite, Mr Wilson. Mr Gallie will close in one sentence.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1840E82P158C709258", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macmillan, Maureen", "ID": 1840, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Maureen Macmillan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Maureen Macmillan (Highlands and Islands) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 247.0, "ContributionID": 709258, "EditedText": "I am absolutely delighted with Jack McConnell's announcement of funding to tackle the causes and consequences of domestic violence. I noticed that Jack was one of the few men present at the debate on domestic violence a few weeks ago, and I hope that he took note both of the concerns expressed by all parties and of the need for funding to address the problem. I particularly welcome the commitment that the funding will be used to ensure that provision is consistent across Scotland. That is one of the things that I was arguing for in the domestic violence debate. It will mean that a person's postcode will not be a measure of the availability of refuge provision. Without repeating my previous speech, I want to say that I know that the funding will be of particular relevance to rural areas, where distance and lack of public transport make it difficult for women to access help. The money is desperately needed, for refuge provision, for other support for victims and for campaigns to educate and to raise awareness of that terrible cancer in our society. I would particularly like to see support for education programmes on relationships, from the earliest years in school. In due course, I look forward to hearing from either the Minister for Finance or the Minister for Communities about the details of the proposals. I welcome the announcement of extra funding for roads. Without repeating the speech that I made in the debate on the Mallaig road, I want to say that that is of special interest to rural areas, too. I look forward hopefully to further announcements on where the extra money will be allocated.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am absolutely delighted with Jack McConnell's announcement of funding to tackle the causes and consequences of domestic violence. I noticed that Jack was one of the few men present at the debate on domestic violence a few weeks ago, and I hope that he took note both of the concerns expressed by all parties and of the need for funding to address the problem.

I particularly welcome the commitment that the funding will be used to ensure that provision is consistent across Scotland. That is one of the things that I was arguing for in the domestic violence debate. It will mean that a person's postcode will not be a measure of the availability of refuge provision. Without repeating my previous speech, I want to say that I know that the funding will be of particular relevance to rural areas, where distance and lack of public transport make it difficult for women to access help.

The money is desperately needed, for refuge provision, for other support for victims and for campaigns to educate and to raise awareness of that terrible cancer in our society. I would particularly like to see support for education programmes on relationships, from the earliest years in school. In due course, I look forward to hearing from either the Minister for Finance or the Minister for Communities about the details of the proposals.

I welcome the announcement of extra funding for roads. Without repeating the speech that I made in the debate on the Mallaig road, I want to say that that is of special interest to rural areas, too. I look forward hopefully to further announcements on where the extra money will be allocated.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1811E172P455C709262", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ullrich, Kay", "ID": 1811, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kay Ullrich", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Kay Ullrich: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 256.0, "ContributionID": 709262, "EditedText": "No, I will not.If the Executive really believes that the NHS in Scotland is being adequately resourced, can it explain why we are hearing reports of hospitals that are already operating non-admissions policies for elective surgery in an attempt to prevent a repeat of last year's winter crisis in accident and emergency? Can the Executive explain why, within the last two weeks—during an unremarkable time of year for the health service— Edinburgh royal infirmary was unable to accept any admissions because there were no available beds? Furthermore, why is it that, in spite of a proclaimed commitment to mental health, not one acute psychiatric bed was available in any of the four psychiatric hospitals in Lothian at the beginning of September, resulting in vulnerable people being placed in hospitals far from their homes and their families? Such is the reality of new Labour's two-and-a-half-year stewardship of the NHS in Scotland. Surely the biggest let-down, however, is in the area of community care. There cannot be a single member in this chamber who has not had an inquiry from a constituent on the subject of community care. The fact is that social work departments all over Scotland are being starved of the funds that would enable them to provide needs-led community care. An average-sized local authority in Scotland will today have in excess of 100 people who have been assessed as being in need of long-term residential or nursing care. Yet the social work department will have enough funding to place only four people per month. It does not take a genius to work out that hospital beds will remain blocked and that frail, elderly people will continue to be left at risk in inappropriate living conditions. The signs today are that the situation in terms of local government funding will only get worse. In addition to the growing crisis in the long-term care of the elderly, there is an apparent refusal by Labour MPs at Westminster and by the Scottish Executive even to look at the Sutherland report, which is widely regarded as showing the way forward on funding for long-term care of the elderly. It is a total obscenity that elderly people should have to sell their homes and use up their savings to pay for long-term care.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I will not.

If the Executive really believes that the NHS in Scotland is being adequately resourced, can it explain why we are hearing reports of hospitals that are already operating non-admissions policies for elective surgery in an attempt to prevent a repeat of last year's winter crisis in accident and emergency? Can the Executive explain why, within the last two weeks—during an unremarkable time of year for the health service— Edinburgh royal infirmary was unable to accept any admissions because there were no available beds?

Furthermore, why is it that, in spite of a proclaimed commitment to mental health, not one acute psychiatric bed was available in any of the four psychiatric hospitals in Lothian at the beginning of September, resulting in vulnerable people being placed in hospitals far from their homes and their families? Such is the reality of new Labour's two-and-a-half-year stewardship of the NHS in Scotland.

Surely the biggest let-down, however, is in the area of community care. There cannot be a single member in this chamber who has not had an inquiry from a constituent on the subject of community care. The fact is that social work departments all over Scotland are being starved of the funds that would enable them to provide needs-led community care. An average-sized local authority in Scotland will today have in excess of 100 people who have been assessed as being in need of long-term residential or nursing care. Yet

the social work department will have enough funding to place only four people per month. It does not take a genius to work out that hospital beds will remain blocked and that frail, elderly people will continue to be left at risk in inappropriate living conditions.

The signs today are that the situation in terms of local government funding will only get worse. In addition to the growing crisis in the long-term care of the elderly, there is an apparent refusal by Labour MPs at Westminster and by the Scottish Executive even to look at the Sutherland report, which is widely regarded as showing the way forward on funding for long-term care of the elderly. It is a total obscenity that elderly people should have to sell their homes and use up their savings to pay for long-term care.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2033E106P139C709263", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gray, Iain", "ID": 2033, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Pentlands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Iain Gray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Community Care (Iain Gray): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 258.0, "ContributionID": 709263, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C709266", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 264.0, "ContributionID": 709266, "EditedText": "No, the member is winding up.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, the member is winding up.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C709268", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 269.0, "ContributionID": 709268, "EditedText": "I welcome the level of contribution from the Opposition parties, given that we had less than one hour to scrutinise the statement. Not only would more time help us, it would help our colleague Keith Raffan, who would not have to go back to Golden Wednesday 1992. Perhaps Keith could comment on today's statement, rather than on Conservative policies from seven years ago. My first point is on the £17 million for vaccination. Interruption. Andy Kerr and Phil Gallie, will you two stop talking? Laughter. Once a teacher, always a teacher. Interruption. Keep quiet.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the level of contribution from the Opposition parties, given that we had less than one hour to scrutinise the statement. Not only would more time help us, it would help our colleague Keith Raffan, who would not have to go back to Golden Wednesday 1992. Perhaps Keith could comment on today's statement, rather than on Conservative policies from seven years ago.

My first point is on the £17 million for vaccination. [Interruption.] Andy Kerr and Phil

Gallie, will you two stop talking? [Laughter.] Once a teacher, always a teacher. [Interruption.] Keep quiet.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C709274", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 281.0, "ContributionID": 709274, "EditedText": "Wind up? I have just started. Laughter. I want to make one brief point. It is on bed blocking. I welcome the fact that we should be constantly scrutinising best value for money and monitoring good practice. I am delighted that the Health and Community Care Committee have made care in the community a top priority. My main concern—this is a very brief point— relates to Sir Stewart Sutherland's comments last week about £750 million being missing from the care budget, UK-wide. Not only should we scrutinise what we do in this Parliament, but I would like clear, concise and accountable scrutiny by us and by local government. I think that we should be working towards better working partnerships with local government to deliver the health care that we need. I have a lot more to say.", "EditedTextHTML": "Wind up? I have just started. [Laughter.] I want to make one brief point. It is on bed blocking. I welcome the fact that we should be constantly scrutinising best value for money and monitoring good practice. I am delighted that the Health and Community Care Committee have made care in the community a top priority.

My main concern—this is a very brief point— relates to Sir Stewart Sutherland's comments last week about £750 million being missing from the care budget, UK-wide. Not only should we scrutinise what we do in this Parliament, but I would like clear, concise and accountable scrutiny by us and by local government.

I think that we should be working towards better working partnerships with local government to deliver the health care that we need.

I have a lot more to say.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1908E166P251C709277", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Kerr, Andy", "ID": 1908, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Kilbride" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andy Kerr", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Andy Kerr (East Kilbride) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 288.0, "ContributionID": 709277, "EditedText": "I congratulate Jack McConnell on his speech. I share the views of some members that the Opposition groups, grudgingly and working in tandem as usual, have chosen to be fairly churlish. I apologise to Mary. When I was talking, I believe that I picked you up correctly: you did say Golden Wednesday?", "EditedTextHTML": "I congratulate Jack McConnell on his speech. I share the views of some members that the Opposition groups, grudgingly and working in tandem as usual, have chosen to be fairly churlish.

I apologise to Mary. When I was talking, I believe that I picked you up correctly: you did say Golden Wednesday?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1876E194P490C709288", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Marwick, Tricia", "ID": 1876, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tricia Marwick", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tricia Marwick: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 312.0, "ContributionID": 709288, "EditedText": "—who are waiting to be called and there is a possibility that they might not be called. It is a gross discourtesy—", "EditedTextHTML": "—who are waiting to be called and there is a possibility that they might not be called. It is a gross discourtesy—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2223E203P342C709290", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scott, Tavish", "ID": 2223, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Shetland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tavish Scott", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tavish Scott (Shetland) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 317.0, "ContributionID": 709290, "EditedText": "I am not the only person who has had to go out to do a TV interview and has then spoken. Mr Sheridan speaks with considerable eloquence on the areas he is deeply concerned about, but I still think the £17.4 billion is not just a small morsel and, although we can differ on how we might spend it, it is a considerable sum of public money. For the Liberal Democrats I wish to recognise the investment that is going into transport and the environment in the increase from £570 million to £587 million over three years. I also welcome the additional money in relation to the strategic roads review. Thirty-five million pounds will not deal with all the concerns and requirements of communities around Scotland but, as was said earlier, might be able to deal with the Mallaig road, for example. That is an important step forward and shows that the partnership Government is listening to a particularly important area of concern in Scotland. While the broad sums are important, some of the more minor details are also important. The former chief executive of a council I worked in told me that, as a councillor, I should worry about only the vision and not the small details, but the detail is what builds the vision and we should concern ourselves with it. The Minister for Finance mentioned the Scotland Office and its £5.7 million budget and 130 civil servants. I would like to understand what that money is being used for and our role in ensuring accountability for it. In an article by Mr John Reid I read in The Parliamentary Monitor this week he explains the secretary of state's role. He said: \"it is my job to ensure that Scotland's voice continues to be heard at Cabinet\" and, when drawing up the assisted areas map, \"in consultation with my Cabinet colleagues I was able to ensure that the UK government's decision was fair to Scotland.\" In the longer term, in the federal Britain that Liberal Democrats seek, there would be no role for the Secretary of State for Scotland. I accept, for now, as the Minister for Finance made clear, that there is a need for a secretary of state looking after Scotland's interests in Cabinet. I have concerns about the scale of the operation, however. There are questions that should be asked about accountability and scale: what do all 130 civil servants do and how does this Parliament ensure that the secretary of state represents our views? Kenny MacAskill expressed concern at a Transport and the Environment Committee meeting about how we would be able to make representations to the UK Government on the fuel escalator. That is an obvious role for the secretary of state. I am interested in how we as a Parliament make sure our representations are fed into that process. While today there has been an important step forward in terms of financial accountability—", "EditedTextHTML": "I am not the only person who has had to go out to do a TV interview and has then spoken.

Mr Sheridan speaks with considerable eloquence on the areas he is deeply concerned about, but I still think the £17.4 billion is not just a small morsel and, although we can differ on how we might spend it, it is a considerable sum of public money. For the Liberal Democrats I wish to recognise the investment that is going into transport and the environment in the increase from £570 million to £587 million over three years. I also welcome the additional money in relation to the strategic roads review. Thirty-five million pounds will not deal with all the concerns and requirements of communities around Scotland but, as was said earlier, might be able to deal with the Mallaig road, for example. That is an important step forward and shows that the partnership

Government is listening to a particularly important area of concern in Scotland.

While the broad sums are important, some of the more minor details are also important. The former chief executive of a council I worked in told me that, as a councillor, I should worry about only the vision and not the small details, but the detail is what builds the vision and we should concern ourselves with it. The Minister for Finance mentioned the Scotland Office and its £5.7 million budget and 130 civil servants. I would like to understand what that money is being used for and our role in ensuring accountability for it.

In an article by Mr John Reid I read in The Parliamentary Monitor this week he explains the secretary of state's role. He said:

\"it is my job to ensure that Scotland's voice continues to be heard at Cabinet\" and, when drawing up the assisted areas map,

\"in consultation with my Cabinet colleagues I was able to ensure that the UK government's decision was fair to Scotland.\"

In the longer term, in the federal Britain that Liberal Democrats seek, there would be no role for the Secretary of State for Scotland. I accept, for now, as the Minister for Finance made clear, that there is a need for a secretary of state looking after Scotland's interests in Cabinet. I have concerns about the scale of the operation, however. There are questions that should be asked about accountability and scale: what do all 130 civil servants do and how does this Parliament ensure that the secretary of state represents our views?

Kenny MacAskill expressed concern at a Transport and the Environment Committee meeting about how we would be able to make representations to the UK Government on the fuel escalator. That is an obvious role for the secretary of state. I am interested in how we as a Parliament make sure our representations are fed into that process. While today there has been an important step forward in terms of financial accountability—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C709293", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Richard Simpson (Ochil) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 324.0, "ContributionID": 709293, "EditedText": "I particularly welcome the additional expenditure on the national health service. However, I do not recognise much of what the Opposition said about forward planning. It is true that we have had two years of prudent budgeting. We have inherited one of the strongest economies in Europe and one of the lowest unemployment rates in the western world. That is a sound basis on which to develop public services. It is crucial that we develop those services. Mr Jack McConnell's commitment not only to the introduction of the previously planned expenditure but to definite new expenditure is not—as Kay Ullrich claimed—smoke and mirrors. It is reality. Let us look at some of those realities. Getting the £50 million in the NHS trust capital spend back from the Treasury is of considerable importance; putting it into housing is a demonstration of the Executive's joined-up thinking. As the Opposition says, health is not just about health; it is about other issues. We are as committed to that as the Opposition is, but in a realistic, not fanciful, way. The Scottish Executive is already spending more than £200 more for every woman, man and child than is spent in England. It is almost obscene for us to ask for even more, when there are people in Birmingham, Manchester and other areas of England who are suffering deprivation that is just as great. The Barnett formula favours us enormously and the percentage increases that people play games with mean that we will receive—and will continue to receive—substantial increases.", "EditedTextHTML": "I particularly welcome the additional expenditure on the national health service. However, I do not recognise much of what the Opposition said about forward planning. It is true that we have had two years of prudent budgeting. We have inherited one of the strongest economies in Europe and one of the lowest unemployment rates in the western world. That is a sound basis on which to develop public services. It is crucial that we develop those services. Mr Jack McConnell's commitment not only to the introduction of the previously planned expenditure but to definite new expenditure is not—as Kay Ullrich claimed—smoke and mirrors. It is reality.

Let us look at some of those realities. Getting the £50 million in the NHS trust capital spend back from the Treasury is of considerable importance; putting it into housing is a demonstration of the Executive's joined-up thinking. As the Opposition says, health is not just about health; it is about other issues. We are as committed to that as the Opposition is, but in a realistic, not fanciful, way.

The Scottish Executive is already spending more than £200 more for every woman, man and child than is spent in England. It is almost obscene for us to ask for even more, when there are people in Birmingham, Manchester and other areas of England who are suffering deprivation that is just as great. The Barnett formula favours us enormously and the percentage increases that people play games with mean that we will receive—and will continue to receive—substantial increases.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C709295", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Simpson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 328.0, "ContributionID": 709295, "EditedText": "What I dispute is Scotland being measured against the UK average. There are areas in England and Wales that are suffering just as much from poor morbidity as areas of Scotland. It is crucial that those areas—", "EditedTextHTML": "What I dispute is Scotland being measured against the UK average. There are areas in England and Wales that are suffering just as much from poor morbidity as areas of Scotland. It is crucial that those areas—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C709297", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Simpson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 332.0, "ContributionID": 709297, "EditedText": "In health terms, we are spending less, but it is because we have a health service that, because of its primary care system, is considerably more efficient than health services anywhere else. That efficiency is the next item to which I turn. I say to the Conservatives—whose number is depleted by greater events—that although the Conservative Government spent considerably more money on the health service over 18 years, it did not spend it wisely. The money was spent on administration; under the Conservatives, the percentage spent on administrative costs more than doubled. The Executive is trying to spend its money prudently; we have begun that process with reorganisation. I have two more points. First, the chamber has to get to grips with the issue of drugs. I recommended in the Health and Community Care Committee that there should be a separate subject committee on drugs. Drugs are one of the most destructive things in our communities; the Parliament must state that it regards the issue as a priority. I welcome particularly Jack McConnell's commitment to the drugs enforcement agency. He also indicated that there would be a review of expenditure on rehabilitation and education. We must examine how we spend that money and ensure that it is spent wisely. The drugs issue is fundamental to social inclusion, to health and to the criminal justice aspects of the Parliament's work. Secondly, I welcome the money that is being spent on the meningitis C vaccine. That is an indication that this Executive is prepared to take up important new developments and spend money appropriately. I welcome the minister's statement; it is just a start, but it is an excellent start. I am pleased that he has accepted the need for level 2 funding analysis, on which the Finance Committee is particularly keen. I am sure that members from all parties will welcome that, and that John Swinney will mention it when he sums up.", "EditedTextHTML": "In health terms, we are spending less, but it is because we have a health service that, because of its primary care system, is considerably more efficient than health services anywhere else.

That efficiency is the next item to which I turn. I say to the Conservatives—whose number is depleted by greater events—that although the Conservative Government spent considerably more money on the health service over 18 years, it did not spend it wisely. The money was spent on administration; under the Conservatives, the percentage spent on administrative costs more than doubled. The Executive is trying to spend its money prudently; we have begun that process with reorganisation.

I have two more points. First, the chamber has to get to grips with the issue of drugs. I recommended in the Health and Community Care Committee that there should be a separate subject committee on drugs. Drugs are one of the most destructive things in our communities; the Parliament must state that it regards the issue as a priority. I welcome particularly Jack McConnell's commitment to the drugs enforcement agency. He also indicated that there would be a review of expenditure on rehabilitation and education. We must examine how we spend that money and ensure that it is spent wisely. The drugs issue is fundamental to social inclusion, to health and to the criminal justice aspects of the Parliament's work.

Secondly, I welcome the money that is being spent on the meningitis C vaccine. That is an indication that this Executive is prepared to take up important new developments and spend money appropriately.

I welcome the minister's statement; it is just a start, but it is an excellent start. I am pleased that he has accepted the need for level 2 funding analysis, on which the Finance Committee is particularly keen. I am sure that members from all parties will welcome that, and that John Swinney will mention it when he sums up.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2112E192P495C709298", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacAskill, Kenny", "ID": 2112, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenny MacAskill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Kenny MacAskill (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 335.0, "ContributionID": 709298, "EditedText": "It is reasonable to expect that the announcement of expenditure plans to the Scottish Parliament will be an opportunity to outline a vision and to dispense goodies to an eagerly awaiting nation. What we have heard so far amounts to little more than crumbs swept from the table—crumbs that are not bound together by any great vision, because there is neither a big picture, nor a big idea. What is the current situation in Scotland? As others have said, in London, Gordon Brown's UK war chest is being built up in preparation for a Dutch auction at the next election. Labour is involved in an unseemly scramble with the Tories to cut direct taxation further, at the same time as it continues to introduce indirect taxation by the back door. Fuel duty is the classic, crippling example of that. Eighty-five pence in every pound that is spent by the Scottish motorist finds its way directly to London, no doubt thickening the lining of Mr Brown's war chest. Scotland may be Europe's major oil producer, but Labour dictates that we have the highest fuel prices on the European continent. Even air transport is not exempt. Last year the Treasury raked in from Scotland £54 million through air passenger duty, but we do not even have rail links to our major airports. We heard an announcement of £45 million for roads, but Labour's accident tax will be covered in three and a half years from Scottish motorists' increased premiums. We are paying for it through the back door. Transport infrastructure forms the backbone of a stable economy, creating jobs and wealth. That backbone is crucial to a geographically remote nation such as ours. Let us consider the priority that the Executive has given transport. The rhetoric may be fine, but it is belied by a lack of financial commitment. The Executive's proposals would cut transport expenditure by more than £200 million over the first three years of this Parliament, as compared with the last three years of Tory rule. We may be becoming a wealthier nation, but under Labour a smaller proportion of our wealth is being invested in our nation. Our wealth is being extracted to fund a tax bribe promised by a London chancellor. In 1993-94, 0.56 per cent of gross domestic product was spent on roads and transport. According to \"Serving Scotland's Needs\", by 1999-2000, that will have fallen by about a third. If spending had remained at 1993-94 levels, this Parliament would have had an additional £488 million to spend on transport. A comparison of the last three years of Tory spending with the plans that have been published for the first three years of this Scottish Parliament indicates that expenditure on motorways and trunk roads is on course to fall by some 70 per cent. That leaves Sarah Boyack as not so much the Minister for Transport and the Environment, but the minister for potholes. Do not ask for Ms Boyack—it would be as well to ask for Ralph or Clarence, as that is all that the budget will pay for. Under the trunk road maintenance review, road maintenance may be hived off, privatised or undercut. Local authorities are worried about that. Where is the money for the big projects? Where are the plans for infrastructure to allow us to be economically competitive? London is a great deal less geographically peripheral than Scotland, but the Government seems happy enough to pour money into its infrastructure.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is reasonable to expect that the announcement of expenditure plans to the Scottish Parliament will be an opportunity to outline a vision and to dispense goodies to an eagerly awaiting nation. What we have heard so far amounts to little more than crumbs swept from the table—crumbs that are not bound together by any great vision, because there is neither a big picture, nor a big idea.

What is the current situation in Scotland? As others have said, in London, Gordon Brown's UK war chest is being built up in preparation for a Dutch auction at the next election. Labour is involved in an unseemly scramble with the Tories to cut direct taxation further, at the same time as it continues to introduce indirect taxation by the back door.

Fuel duty is the classic, crippling example of that. Eighty-five pence in every pound that is spent by the Scottish motorist finds its way directly to London, no doubt thickening the lining of Mr Brown's war chest. Scotland may be Europe's major oil producer, but Labour dictates that we have the highest fuel prices on the European continent.

Even air transport is not exempt. Last year the Treasury raked in from Scotland £54 million through air passenger duty, but we do not even have rail links to our major airports. We heard an announcement of £45 million for roads, but Labour's accident tax will be covered in three and a half years from Scottish motorists' increased premiums. We are paying for it through the back door.

Transport infrastructure forms the backbone of a stable economy, creating jobs and wealth. That backbone is crucial to a geographically remote nation such as ours.

Let us consider the priority that the Executive has given transport. The rhetoric may be fine, but it is belied by a lack of financial commitment. The Executive's proposals would cut transport expenditure by more than £200 million over the first three years of this Parliament, as compared with the last three years of Tory rule. We may be becoming a wealthier nation, but under Labour a smaller proportion of our wealth is being invested in our nation. Our wealth is being extracted to fund a tax bribe promised by a London chancellor.

In 1993-94, 0.56 per cent of gross domestic product was spent on roads and transport. According to \"Serving Scotland's Needs\", by 1999-2000, that will have fallen by about a third. If spending had remained at 1993-94 levels, this Parliament would have had an additional £488 million to spend on transport. A comparison of the last three years of Tory spending with the plans that have been published for the first three years of this Scottish Parliament indicates that expenditure on motorways and trunk roads is on course to fall by some 70 per cent.

That leaves Sarah Boyack as not so much the Minister for Transport and the Environment, but the minister for potholes. Do not ask for Ms Boyack—it would be as well to ask for Ralph or Clarence, as that is all that the budget will pay for. Under the trunk road maintenance review, road maintenance may be hived off, privatised or undercut. Local authorities are worried about that.

Where is the money for the big projects? Where are the plans for infrastructure to allow us to be economically competitive? London is a great deal less geographically peripheral than Scotland, but the Government seems happy enough to pour money into its infrastructure.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2112E192P495C709300", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacAskill, Kenny", "ID": 2112, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenny MacAskill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr MacAskill: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 339.0, "ContributionID": 709300, "EditedText": "I am sorry, but I will not give way. The Presiding Officer has made it quite clear that other people wish to speak. What about the £2.5 billion for the new Jubilee line in Docklands? What about the £440 million for Heathrow Express? What about the £1.8 billion channel tunnel link? There is even talk of a second Eurotunnel, when we in Scotland do not have a direct link to the first one. No visionary projects of that sort are contained in Scotland's budget statement. A mere £35 million would cover the upgrading and electrification of the Edinburgh-Shotts link. Just £15 million would open a freight and passenger service connecting Stirling, Alloa and Dunfermline and £180 million would provide us with the M74 northern extension, which would boost the economy in the west of Scotland. The cost of just one station on the Jubilee line would be enough to upgrade the A77 to motorway status. At a time when environmental issues are becoming more and more important, when Kyoto is climbing up every agenda, with a need for closer monitoring and tighter regulation, we discover that the environmental watchdog, which we trust to look after and monitor our environmental needs, faces a 6 per cent budget cut. On the environment, Labour's commitment does not match the rhetoric. We need a basic change in philosophy. We need to recognise that investment in community and country is essential. We must invest for the common good, not withdraw for the individual gain, in order to compete economically in the global economy, which is a prerequisite for us to be able to implement our plans for social justice. In today's statement, the Executive has fallen lamentably short. It has been subject to examination and it has failed.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry, but I will not give way. The Presiding Officer has made it quite clear that other people wish to speak.

What about the £2.5 billion for the new Jubilee line in Docklands? What about the £440 million for Heathrow Express? What about the £1.8 billion channel tunnel link? There is even talk of a second Eurotunnel, when we in Scotland do not have a direct link to the first one.

No visionary projects of that sort are contained in Scotland's budget statement. A mere £35 million would cover the upgrading and electrification of the Edinburgh-Shotts link. Just £15 million would open a freight and passenger service connecting Stirling, Alloa and Dunfermline and £180 million would provide us with the M74 northern extension, which would boost the economy in the west of Scotland. The cost of just one station on the Jubilee line would be enough to upgrade the A77 to motorway status.

At a time when environmental issues are becoming more and more important, when Kyoto is climbing up every agenda, with a need for closer monitoring and tighter regulation, we discover that the environmental watchdog, which we trust to look after and monitor our environmental needs, faces a 6 per cent budget cut. On the environment, Labour's commitment does not match the rhetoric.

We need a basic change in philosophy. We need to recognise that investment in community and country is essential. We must invest for the common good, not withdraw for the individual gain, in order to compete economically in the global economy, which is a prerequisite for us to be able to implement our plans for social justice. In today's statement, the Executive has fallen lamentably short. It has been subject to examination and it has failed.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1893E47P78C709302", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnstone, Alex", "ID": 1893, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Johnstone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Johnstone (North-East Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 344.0, "ContributionID": 709302, "EditedText": "It was Jack McConnell.", "EditedTextHTML": "

It was Jack McConnell.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1986E53P206C709312", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeil, Duncan", "ID": 1986, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Greenock and Inverclyde" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan McNeil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Duncan McNeil (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 366.0, "ContributionID": 709312, "EditedText": "The real question is where the money will come from. Does Mr Swinney agree with increasing tax for hard-working families in Scotland?", "EditedTextHTML": "The real question is where the money will come from. Does Mr Swinney agree with increasing tax for hard-working families in Scotland?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C709314", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 370.0, "ContributionID": 709314, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709315", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 372.0, "ContributionID": 709315, "EditedText": "The member is in the last minute of his speech.", "EditedTextHTML": "The member is in the last minute of his speech.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C709317", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 377.0, "ContributionID": 709317, "EditedText": "It would have been helpful if both of the partners in the Opposition coalition had recognised that today we did not recycle a series of announcements. If the statement was remarkable for anything, it was that it did not include recycled announcements. It is right and proper that ministers make the announcements that arise from this statement and that the committees of the Parliament have a chance to discuss them. It was interesting that Mr Swinney and Miss Goldie described themselves as opponents. Perhaps that is because there is no vote this afternoon—otherwise they would be in their usual alliance. It has been my privilege to present this statement. The programme that this Administration has set out will deliver for all the people of Scotland. It is there for Scotland's children in the increased investment in education, and in other measures. It is there for Scotland's families in the increased investment in support for strong communities. It is there for senior citizens, particularly in the investment in tackling crime and the causes of crime—I hope that Mary Scanlon agrees that sometimes that might include getting Phil Gallie to let her speak. I hope that the budget process can go ahead in an open and consultative way and that our discussions in the overall review next year can be open and transparent—in Scotland and with the Treasury. I can assure members that that is our commitment. The plans that were outlined today deliver. They deliver £80 million of new money for education. They deliver programmes on social inclusion, transport, justice and other areas that will improve the quality of life in Scotland. Frankly, I have found many Opposition members' comments about the issues that confront us as elected MSPs in Scotland's first Parliament lacking in substance.", "EditedTextHTML": "It would have been helpful if both of the partners in the Opposition coalition had recognised that today we did not recycle a series of announcements. If the statement was remarkable for anything, it was that it did not include recycled announcements. It is right and proper that ministers make the announcements that arise from this statement and that the committees of the Parliament have a chance to discuss them.

It was interesting that Mr Swinney and Miss Goldie described themselves as opponents. Perhaps that is because there is no vote this afternoon—otherwise they would be in their usual alliance.

It has been my privilege to present this statement. The programme that this Administration has set out will deliver for all the people of Scotland. It is there for Scotland's children in the increased investment in education, and in other measures. It is there for Scotland's families in the increased investment in support for strong communities. It is there for senior citizens, particularly in the investment in tackling crime and the causes of crime—I hope that Mary Scanlon agrees that sometimes that might include getting Phil Gallie to let her speak.

I hope that the budget process can go ahead in an open and consultative way and that our discussions in the overall review next year can be open and transparent—in Scotland and with the Treasury. I can assure members that that is our commitment.

The plans that were outlined today deliver. They deliver £80 million of new money for education. They deliver programmes on social inclusion, transport, justice and other areas that will improve the quality of life in Scotland. Frankly, I have found many Opposition members' comments about the issues that confront us as elected MSPs in Scotland's first Parliament lacking in substance.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C709318", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 379.0, "ContributionID": 709318, "EditedText": "There was one point of substance from the SNP, which, of course, was about 199394 levels of real expenditure. An increase of £7.8 billion would mean a 10p increase in income tax. Obviously we in the coalition do not wish to impose that on the Scottish people, but the SNP does.", "EditedTextHTML": "There was one point of substance from the SNP, which, of course, was about 199394 levels of real expenditure. An increase of £7.8 billion would mean a 10p increase in income tax. Obviously we in the coalition do not wish to impose that on the Scottish people, but the SNP does.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C709325", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Goldie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 393.0, "ContributionID": 709325, "EditedText": "On a point of order, Sir David. I doubt that any of us in this chamber have been unaffected by the news of the dreadful rail tragedy down south. Would you, on our behalf, extend our sympathy to the families that have been affected by the death or injury of loved ones?", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order, Sir David. I doubt that any of us in this chamber have been unaffected by the news of the dreadful rail tragedy down south. Would you, on our behalf, extend our sympathy to the families that have been affected by the death or injury of loved ones?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C709319", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 381.0, "ContributionID": 709319, "EditedText": "The SNP's references to 199495 expenditure levels are wearing a bit thin, two and a half years into the new Government. Also, credibility is stretched beyond the limit when we hear Conservative members talk about their record on public expenditure and finances, considering the massive level of debt the Government took on in 1997 and the size of budget cuts at that time—as the figures that have been published today show. Contained in today's figures are other factors that are relevant to points that have been raised. The figures include urgent assistance for Scottish salmon farmers, which should be welcomed on all sides of the chamber. The extra money for the new deal is there for industry and for enterprise. Again, it stretches credibility for a party that said during the Scottish election campaign, if I remember Mr McLetchie's comment properly, that it would abolish the new deal in Scotland—and that may well still be his party's policy—to criticise the amount of money that we are spending on industry and enterprise. Mr Raffan asked about drug rehabilitation. Today's figures include recent announcements by ministers on drug action teams and on the essential effectiveness of our drug rehabilitation policy. When ministers receive the audit report that they should receive soon, we will hear statements in the chamber that will take drug policy forward, at the same time as we tackle the pushers and the people responsible for this problem in so many of our communities. The number of times that we hear that health expenditure in Scotland has lost out in comparison with health expenditure in England because of the existence of the United Kingdom is getting ridiculous. Health expenditure in Scotland remains 20 per cent higher than it is in England. SNP members may object, but it is time that we recognised that, that we were honest about it, and that Mrs Ullrich—every now and again—welcomed the odd positive announcement on the health service in Scotland. Perhaps that is too much to ask. The stuck record of constantly complaining about how Scotland compares with England does not fit with the reality of public expenditure in Scotland today. We were elected to spend money better, not to complain about what is being spent in Birmingham or Bristol or anywhere else south of the border. It is interesting to note the comments that have been made about the Scotland Office and the process of decision making that was outlined in the statement of funding policy earlier this year. That policy remains in place and will work well in practice for Scotland. The nationalist members of the House of Commons at Westminster are well resourced—they receive a considerable amount of money in back-up, even though they are not there very often. Perhaps they should occasionally go there to ask questions and make speeches. That would be welcome.", "EditedTextHTML": "The SNP's references to 199495 expenditure levels are wearing a bit thin, two and a half years into the new Government. Also, credibility is stretched beyond the limit when we hear Conservative members talk about their

record on public expenditure and finances, considering the massive level of debt the Government took on in 1997 and the size of budget cuts at that time—as the figures that have been published today show.

Contained in today's figures are other factors that are relevant to points that have been raised. The figures include urgent assistance for Scottish salmon farmers, which should be welcomed on all sides of the chamber. The extra money for the new deal is there for industry and for enterprise. Again, it stretches credibility for a party that said during the Scottish election campaign, if I remember Mr McLetchie's comment properly, that it would abolish the new deal in Scotland—and that may well still be his party's policy—to criticise the amount of money that we are spending on industry and enterprise.

Mr Raffan asked about drug rehabilitation. Today's figures include recent announcements by ministers on drug action teams and on the essential effectiveness of our drug rehabilitation policy. When ministers receive the audit report that they should receive soon, we will hear statements in the chamber that will take drug policy forward, at the same time as we tackle the pushers and the people responsible for this problem in so many of our communities.

The number of times that we hear that health expenditure in Scotland has lost out in comparison with health expenditure in England because of the existence of the United Kingdom is getting ridiculous. Health expenditure in Scotland remains 20 per cent higher than it is in England. SNP members may object, but it is time that we recognised that, that we were honest about it, and that Mrs Ullrich—every now and again—welcomed the odd positive announcement on the health service in Scotland. Perhaps that is too much to ask.

The stuck record of constantly complaining about how Scotland compares with England does not fit with the reality of public expenditure in Scotland today. We were elected to spend money better, not to complain about what is being spent in Birmingham or Bristol or anywhere else south of the border.

It is interesting to note the comments that have been made about the Scotland Office and the process of decision making that was outlined in the statement of funding policy earlier this year. That policy remains in place and will work well in practice for Scotland. The nationalist members of the House of Commons at Westminster are well resourced—they receive a considerable amount of money in back-up, even though they are not there very often. Perhaps they should occasionally go there to ask questions and make speeches. That would be welcome.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709324", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 391.0, "ContributionID": 709324, "EditedText": "That concludes the debate, but I should like to make a point that I have made before. Those who speak in the debate should be here for the winding-up speech by the minister. Saying that is a bit like preaching against poor Sunday attendance, because my remarks are directed against people who are not present, but I hope that all members will take note. Such discourtesy will be noted in future by the chair. There are no Parliamentary Bureau motions and no questions to be put as a result of today's business.", "EditedTextHTML": "That concludes the debate, but I should like to make a point that I have made before. Those who speak in the debate should be here for the winding-up speech by the minister. Saying that is a bit like preaching against poor Sunday attendance, because my remarks are directed against people who are not present, but I hope that all members will take note. Such discourtesy will be noted in future by the chair.

There are no Parliamentary Bureau motions and no questions to be put as a result of today's business.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1826E199P351C709336", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Breast Cancer", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26911, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 399.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 399.0, "ID": 26911, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Smith, Margaret", "ID": 1826, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Smith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Smith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 418.0, "ContributionID": 709336, "EditedText": "I take those comments on board. I think that what I did was to ask the minister to look at the issue. In September, the minister answered a written question from Bristow Muldoon, which shows that we are generally moving that way. Nobody wants to do anything that is counterproductive, but screening is an issue, and one that is being raised by the Scottish Breast Cancer Campaign. I have raised it in the past for Age Concern because it is concerned about the position of older women in society. Eventually, we must be aware of the fact that there is a problem with regard to women attending for screening. In some cases, only 65 per cent of women who are eligible to attend for screening under the present regime do so. We must send out a challenge, not only to practitioners and to ourselves as politicians, but to the women of Scotland and their partners to ensure that women take responsibility and come forward for screening. We must try to ensure that they have the best information on what screening involves and what the benefits are. Screening reduces deaths by up to 30 per cent. We must do everything that we can to ensure that screening is effective. In my constituency in Edinburgh, I have a world- renowned oncology department in the Western general hospital and the well-known Maggie's Centre. The work of people in the health service in Scotland, particularly on breast cancer, but also in other cancer-related fields, is tremendous, and we should put on record our thanks to all of them. We should examine the points that Irene McGugan made on research. To widen the debate slightly, over the past few years, breast cancer awareness has been heightened, and it is right that that is so, but I am always aware of the fact that while women are taking a much more vocal interest in breast cancer and other cancers that afflict women, our male counterparts do not spend as much time focusing on male cancers. I hope that at some point in the coming year we will have a chance to speak in this Parliament about testicular cancer and other cancers that affect men. Women have said, \"This is something that we must address and we shall do so in this Parliament.\" It is time for men to do the same. I thank Pauline McNeill for enabling me to speak on this subject.", "EditedTextHTML": "I take those comments on board. I think that what I did was to ask the minister to look at the issue. In September, the minister answered a written question from Bristow Muldoon, which shows that we are generally moving that way. Nobody wants to do anything that is counterproductive, but screening is an issue, and one that is being raised by the Scottish Breast Cancer Campaign. I have raised it in the past for Age Concern because it is concerned about the position of older women in society.

Eventually, we must be aware of the fact that there is a problem with regard to women attending for screening. In some cases, only 65 per cent of women who are eligible to attend for screening under the present regime do so.

We must send out a challenge, not only to practitioners and to ourselves as politicians, but to the women of Scotland and their partners to ensure that women take responsibility and come forward for screening. We must try to ensure that they have the best information on what screening involves and what the benefits are. Screening reduces deaths by up to 30 per cent. We must do everything that we can to ensure that screening is effective.

In my constituency in Edinburgh, I have a world- renowned oncology department in the Western general hospital and the well-known Maggie's Centre. The work of people in the health service in Scotland, particularly on breast cancer, but also in other cancer-related fields, is tremendous, and we should put on record our thanks to all of them. We should examine the points that Irene McGugan made on research.

To widen the debate slightly, over the past few years, breast cancer awareness has been heightened, and it is right that that is so, but I am always aware of the fact that while women are taking a much more vocal interest in breast cancer and other cancers that afflict women, our male counterparts do not spend as much time focusing on male cancers. I hope that at some point in the coming year we will have a chance to speak in this Parliament about testicular cancer and other cancers that affect men. Women have said, \"This is something that we must address and we shall do so in this Parliament.\" It is time for men to do the same.

I thank Pauline McNeill for enabling me to speak on this subject.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2123E103P242C709338", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Breast Cancer", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26911, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 399.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 399.0, "ID": 26911, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Chisholm, Malcolm", "ID": 2123, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh North and Leith" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Malcolm Chisholm", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 424.0, "ContributionID": 709338, "EditedText": "Once again, one of the best and most important debates in the Parliament is taking place at the end of the day. The shocking figures about breast cancer have already been mentioned. However, the statistic that has made a deep impression on me is that more than twice as many women between 30 and 54 die from breast cancer as from any other single cause. When the Westminster all-party group on breast cancer was formed in 1994, we heard from many experts about the lottery of care; about the way in which fewer women developed breast cancer in this country than in some other countries, but more of those women died from it; and about the fact that only a quarter of research money came from public funds. Since then, some progress has been made. We have a good opportunity today to make sure that the issue becomes a priority for the Scottish Parliament. I look forward to hearing from the Minister for Health and Community Care about on-going initiatives. It is obviously important that all women, wherever they live, get the best available care and that one-stop clinics should be developed, so that diagnoses are made as quickly as possible. I also hope that we can support the Breakthrough Breast Cancer campaign and aim towards every pound from charities for breast cancer research being matched by a pound from public funds.", "EditedTextHTML": "Once again, one of the best and most important debates in the Parliament is taking place at the end of the day. The shocking figures about breast cancer have already been mentioned. However, the statistic that has made a deep impression on me is that more than twice as many women between 30 and 54 die from breast cancer as from any other single cause. When the Westminster all-party group on breast cancer was formed in 1994, we heard from many experts about the lottery of care; about the way in which fewer women developed breast cancer in this

country than in some other countries, but more of those women died from it; and about the fact that only a quarter of research money came from public funds.

Since then, some progress has been made. We have a good opportunity today to make sure that the issue becomes a priority for the Scottish Parliament. I look forward to hearing from the Minister for Health and Community Care about on-going initiatives. It is obviously important that all women, wherever they live, get the best available care and that one-stop clinics should be developed, so that diagnoses are made as quickly as possible. I also hope that we can support the Breakthrough Breast Cancer campaign and aim towards every pound from charities for breast cancer research being matched by a pound from public funds.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C709346", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Breast Cancer", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26911, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 399.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 399.0, "ID": 26911, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 446.0, "ContributionID": 709346, "EditedText": "I am conscious that this is a debate that many more members than usual have stayed behind for. If I closed the meeting now, I would be excluding one member who wishes to participate. There is just about time—if you are able to be fairly brief, Richard.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am conscious that this is a debate that many more members than usual have stayed behind for. If I closed the meeting now, I would be excluding one member who wishes to participate. There is just about time—if you are able to be fairly brief, Richard.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1762E216P508C709339", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Breast Cancer", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26911, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 399.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 399.0, "ID": 26911, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Elder, Dorothy-Grace", "ID": 1762, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 427.0, "ContributionID": 709339, "EditedText": "I thank Pauline McNeill and Margaret Curran for raising this important issue. Some years ago, I became one of the many women to go through a breast cancer scare and I know how petrified with terror such women feel. However, we have to stop scaring women away from tests by making them aware of the vital statistic that there is only a one in nine chance of having a malignancy. I was indeed one of the women who did not have a malignancy—I had a blocked milk duct from having far too many babies in too short a time. When I heard the news, I positively skipped down Great Western Road and promised to be angelic for the rest of my life, which was a promise that did not last long. We need to get across the message that women must have those tests with as much confidence as possible. The Parliament should consider how little it costs to save a woman's life and how saving a woman can very often save a whole family. Often these days, that woman might also be the family's sole breadwinner. It costs about £7,000 to treat each woman with breast cancer from diagnosis to hospitalisation, and unfortunately sometimes to hospice care as well. The Parliament has to get its priorities right. There appears to be plenty of money for certain things. For example, it will cost £100,000 a year to provide secure psychiatric treatment at a planned special unit at Stobhill hospital in Glasgow. Local people have complained about the unit, and the other night I attended a protest meeting in Springburn about the matter. I repeat: it costs £7,000 to treat a woman with breast cancer compared with £100,000 for a patient in a so-called mini-Carstairs in Glasgow. We have to invest more in innocent women. The same Greater Glasgow Health Board has one of the worst survival rates in Europe for breast cancer; taken over a five-year term, the figure for the greater Glasgow area is 72 per cent. In Lothians, there is a more than 76 per cent survival rate at five years, and Fife—which used to be a very bad survival area—has improved dramatically with a 79 per cent survival rate. That is postcode medicine, but this time not for poor areas, but for whole health board areas. Scotland has a severe shortage of experienced radiologists; if one retires, it is difficult to find a trained senior replacement. Furthermore, about a third of the radiology equipment in Scottish hospitals is more than 10 years old. That is not good enough. We compare badly not only with other European countries, but with Canada and Australia. In Scotland, more than 15,000 women of all ages have the disease and, as we heard, 3,000 new cases are treated each year. Sometimes the victims are very young. I remember Bernadette Mowbray, the wife of the footballer Tony Mowbray. Very gallantly, Tony helped me to launch Breast Cure Scotland three years ago. His bride was only 26 years old when she died. At an age when Bernadette and Tony should have been out shopping for furniture for their first home, poor Tony Mowbray was out shopping for that young woman's coffin. We must all pay tribute to Audrey Jones, the gallant campaigner from East Lothian, who started a great patient-led movement to invest charitable money. We must back that campaign. Since she was diagnosed as having breast cancer six years ago, Audrey Jones has raised a fortune. The Parliament has a great chance to offer women a better future. Please do not let us cheat and shortchange our women.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank Pauline McNeill and Margaret Curran for raising this important issue.

Some years ago, I became one of the many women to go through a breast cancer scare and I know how petrified with terror such women feel. However, we have to stop scaring women away from tests by making them aware of the vital statistic that there is only a one in nine chance of having a malignancy. I was indeed one of the women who did not have a malignancy—I had a blocked milk duct from having far too many babies in too short a time. When I heard the news, I positively skipped down Great Western Road and promised to be angelic for the rest of my life, which was a promise that did not last long. We need to get across the message that women must have those tests with as much confidence as possible.

The Parliament should consider how little it costs to save a woman's life and how saving a woman can very often save a whole family. Often these days, that woman might also be the family's sole breadwinner. It costs about £7,000 to treat each woman with breast cancer from diagnosis to hospitalisation, and unfortunately sometimes to hospice care as well. The Parliament has to get its priorities right. There appears to be plenty of money for certain things. For example, it will cost £100,000 a year to provide secure psychiatric treatment at a planned special unit at Stobhill hospital in Glasgow. Local people have complained about the unit, and the other night I attended a protest meeting in Springburn about the matter. I repeat: it costs £7,000 to treat a woman with breast cancer compared with £100,000 for a patient in a so-called mini-Carstairs in Glasgow. We have to invest more in innocent women.

The same Greater Glasgow Health Board has one of the worst survival rates in Europe for breast cancer; taken over a five-year term, the figure for the greater Glasgow area is 72 per cent. In Lothians, there is a more than 76 per cent survival rate at five years, and Fife—which used to be a very bad survival area—has improved dramatically with a 79 per cent survival rate. That is postcode medicine, but this time not for poor areas, but for whole health board areas.

Scotland has a severe shortage of experienced radiologists; if one retires, it is difficult to find a trained senior replacement. Furthermore, about a third of the radiology equipment in Scottish hospitals is more than 10 years old. That is not good enough. We compare badly not only with other European countries, but with Canada and Australia. In Scotland, more than 15,000 women of all ages have the disease and, as we heard, 3,000 new cases are treated each year.

Sometimes the victims are very young. I remember Bernadette Mowbray, the wife of the footballer Tony Mowbray. Very gallantly, Tony helped me to launch Breast Cure Scotland three years ago. His bride was only 26 years old when she died. At an age when Bernadette and Tony should have been out shopping for furniture for their first home, poor Tony Mowbray was out shopping for that young woman's coffin.

We must all pay tribute to Audrey Jones, the gallant campaigner from East Lothian, who started a great patient-led movement to invest charitable money. We must back that campaign. Since she was diagnosed as having breast cancer six years ago, Audrey Jones has raised a fortune. The Parliament has a great chance to offer women a better future. Please do not let us cheat and shortchange our women.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1840E82P158C709342", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Breast Cancer", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26911, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 399.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 399.0, "ID": 26911, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macmillan, Maureen", "ID": 1840, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Maureen Macmillan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Maureen Macmillan (Highlands and Islands) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 436.0, "ContributionID": 709342, "EditedText": "Many of the points that I was going to make have been covered in the debate, but there are one or two that I want to add. First, genetic profiling could help us to identify women who are at risk. Professor Haites of the University of Aberdeen is piloting a managed clinical network for Scotland on the clinical genetics of breast cancer and ovarian cancer, which may be one way forward. We also need more non-clinical well woman centres where breast care is one of many strands of work to encourage women to look after their health. However, such centres are difficult to set up in sparsely populated areas. It may therefore be necessary to consider a well woman touring bus, along the same lines as the sexual health bus organised by Reach Out Highland. I want, also, to highlight women's experiences of breast cancer. A recent focus group study for Highland Health Board, comprising women from Inverness, Lochaber and Wick, found that women often felt seriously disempowered and unsupported through the process of surgery, radiotherapy and chemotherapy. Women often felt that there was a lack of honesty about what was in store for them. They wanted not to be shielded from the reality of their prognosis, but to receive the information that they needed to know what their options were. Such information was not always made available. A couple of days ago, I spoke to a friend of mine—a young woman in her 30s—who has discovered that she has breast cancer. It took a week for her diagnosis to come through, because she lives in Inverness. She, too, felt that she was not given enough information about what was in store and about what could be done—whether she should have a mastectomy, a lumpectomy, reconstruction or other treatment. The women in the focus group complained also about insensitive attitudes. One of them said that she had been treated like a slab of meat, made to lie half-naked as she waited to see the surgeon for the first time. Another woman complained about the insensitivity of being allowed to see cupboards piled high with breasts when she went to be fitted with her prosthesis. The women felt that they were not being treated as human beings. They wanted proper breast care units with breast care nurses—there is one breast care nurse in Inverness; the women want more. The women wanted proper support. Highland Health Board is taking such views on board, as it is concerned about what was discovered through the focus group. All of these points have implications for how we train the medical profession to treat patients in this sensitive area.", "EditedTextHTML": "Many of the points that I was going to make have been covered in the debate, but there are one or two that I want to add.

First, genetic profiling could help us to identify women who are at risk. Professor Haites of the University of Aberdeen is piloting a managed clinical network for Scotland on the clinical genetics of breast cancer and ovarian cancer, which may be one way forward. We also need more non-clinical well woman centres where breast care is one of many strands of work to encourage women to look after their health. However, such centres are difficult to set up in sparsely populated areas. It may therefore be necessary to consider a well woman touring bus, along the same lines as the sexual health bus organised by Reach Out Highland.

I want, also, to highlight women's experiences of breast cancer. A recent focus group study for Highland Health Board, comprising women from Inverness, Lochaber and Wick, found that women often felt seriously disempowered and unsupported through the process of surgery, radiotherapy and chemotherapy. Women often felt that there was a lack of honesty about what was in store for them. They wanted not to be shielded from the reality of their prognosis, but to receive the information that they needed to know what their options were. Such information was not always made available.

A couple of days ago, I spoke to a friend of mine—a young woman in her 30s—who has discovered that she has breast cancer. It took a week for her diagnosis to come through, because she lives in Inverness. She, too, felt that she was not given enough information about what was in store and about what could be done—whether she should have a mastectomy, a lumpectomy, reconstruction or other treatment.

The women in the focus group complained also about insensitive attitudes. One of them said that she had been treated like a slab of meat, made to lie half-naked as she waited to see the surgeon for the first time. Another woman complained about the insensitivity of being allowed to see cupboards piled high with breasts when she went to be fitted with her prosthesis.

The women felt that they were not being treated as human beings. They wanted proper breast care

units with breast care nurses—there is one breast care nurse in Inverness; the women want more. The women wanted proper support. Highland Health Board is taking such views on board, as it is concerned about what was discovered through the focus group.

All of these points have implications for how we train the medical profession to treat patients in this sensitive area.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C709347", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Breast Cancer", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26911, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 399.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 399.0, "ID": 26911, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Richard Simpson (Ochil) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 449.0, "ContributionID": 709347, "EditedText": "I will be very brief. Most of the points have already been made. I wanted to end on a good-news story. The west of Scotland breast screening service had come to my practice area, and one of the last patients I treated in my practice was one of the people who was recalled. Dorothy is quite right: it is difficult for women to be recalled, not knowing what is then going to happen. However, the support that she received, and that other patients have received, from the west of Scotland team has been first-class medicine: better than anything offered in the private sector. That medicine allowed that woman to feel supported, through a process which indeed ended up with her having a mastectomy. However, that process gave her the opportunity to have counselling by the same nurse, who was in the counselling system on the screening side, and to go through with her to the hospital side, with Professor George's unit, and have her operation done. She had the time between the diagnosis and the procedure being undertaken to make a number of decisions about the type of treatment that she wanted and about the possibility of reconstructive medicine. She was able to consult that same nurse on a continuing basis. Nurses have an enormous role to play in the support of the management, diagnosis and treatment of cancer. I agree with Maureen Macmillan that doctors need to understand this: that patient was able to come back to me, consult me, get a second opinion and tease out the issues. That is the sort of support that every woman in Scotland should have. The commitment of the Scottish Executive to 48-hour screening—I do not want to steal all Susan Deacon's thunder— will perhaps be the most important thing that this Parliament will have done, if we achieve it before the end of this period.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will be very brief. Most of the points have already been made. I wanted to end on a good-news story.

The west of Scotland breast screening service had come to my practice area, and one of the last

patients I treated in my practice was one of the people who was recalled. Dorothy is quite right: it is difficult for women to be recalled, not knowing what is then going to happen. However, the support that she received, and that other patients have received, from the west of Scotland team has been first-class medicine: better than anything offered in the private sector.

That medicine allowed that woman to feel supported, through a process which indeed ended up with her having a mastectomy. However, that process gave her the opportunity to have counselling by the same nurse, who was in the counselling system on the screening side, and to go through with her to the hospital side, with Professor George's unit, and have her operation done. She had the time between the diagnosis and the procedure being undertaken to make a number of decisions about the type of treatment that she wanted and about the possibility of reconstructive medicine. She was able to consult that same nurse on a continuing basis.

Nurses have an enormous role to play in the support of the management, diagnosis and treatment of cancer. I agree with Maureen Macmillan that doctors need to understand this: that patient was able to come back to me, consult me, get a second opinion and tease out the issues. That is the sort of support that every woman in Scotland should have. The commitment of the Scottish Executive to 48-hour screening—I do not want to steal all Susan Deacon's thunder— will perhaps be the most important thing that this Parliament will have done, if we achieve it before the end of this period.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C709349", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Breast Cancer", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26911, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 399.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 399.0, "ID": 26911, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 454.0, "ContributionID": 709349, "EditedText": "I thank members for their co-operation this evening and I now close the meeting.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank members for their co-operation this evening and I now close the meeting.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709350", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Breast Cancer", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26911, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 399.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 399.0, "ID": 26911, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 456.0, "ContributionID": 709350, "EditedText": "Meeting closed at 17:50.", "EditedTextHTML": "Meeting closed at 17:50.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2110E214P424C709228", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gibson, Kenneth", "ID": 2110, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenneth Gibson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Kenneth Gibson (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 184.0, "ContributionID": 709228, "EditedText": "I am afraid that I will quibble, and it will not be about pennies. In these days, when most political parties worship at the altar of low income tax, but at the same time seek to be seen to be increasing public expenditure, it is always illustrative to look at precisely who is paying the bill. I recently had the pleasure of looking at the Executive's expenditure plans in the document, \"Serving Scotland's Needs\". In particular, I was interested in local government and in how the Scottish Executive would manage to put the quart of its spending plans into the pint pot of its self- imposed financial constraints. The news for Scotland's local authorities and hard-pressed council tax payers is not good. Finding that out was not an easy feat. The presentation of the figures in \"Serving Scotland's Needs\" is particularly obscure. Nowhere in the publication is it possible to make a direct comparison between the amount that local authorities will need to spend both to maintain current levels of service and to meet new burdens, and the resources that the Government plans to make available. Yet that comparison is crucial to determine how much extra cash will have to be provided through council tax or by how much services will have to be cut. To make the comparison, I have made two broad assumptions: first, that loan charges will increase faster than inflation—4 per cent per annum for 2000-01 and 2001-02; and secondly, that expenditure will need to rise in line with inflation—by 2.5 per cent per annum. Using those assumptions, I estimate that local authorities will need an extra £660 million in 200102. According to \"Serving Scotland's Needs\", the planned increase in funding for those years is only £490 million. That leaves a gap of £170 million that local authorities will have to find for themselves, either by putting up council taxes or by cutting services. I am afraid that that is not the end. Including the new commitments—or new burdens, as they are called—worsens the situation. I would like to list some of the more important ones. The new burdens include specific grants. Our research indicates that, after inflation, there will be a shortfall in that area of £14 million in 2000-01 and £44.6 million in 2001-02. Another burden is the expansion in child care. In September 1998, the Government announced an additional £91 million for the expansion of child care. That is not included in specific grants, but is part of central Government support and is not budgeted for in 2000-01, or the year after that. Estimated additional costs for that new burden in those years are £18.7 million and £22.4 million respectively.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am afraid that I will quibble, and it will not be about pennies.

In these days, when most political parties worship at the altar of low income tax, but at the same time seek to be seen to be increasing public expenditure, it is always illustrative to look at precisely who is paying the bill.

I recently had the pleasure of looking at the Executive's expenditure plans in the document, \"Serving Scotland's Needs\". In particular, I was interested in local government and in how the Scottish Executive would manage to put the quart of its spending plans into the pint pot of its self- imposed financial constraints. The news for Scotland's local authorities and hard-pressed council tax payers is not good. Finding that out was not an easy feat. The presentation of the figures in \"Serving Scotland's Needs\" is particularly obscure. Nowhere in the publication is it possible to make a direct comparison between the amount that local authorities will need to spend both to maintain current levels of service and to meet new burdens, and the resources that the Government plans to make available. Yet that comparison is crucial to determine how much extra cash will have to be provided through council tax or by how much services will have to be cut.

To make the comparison, I have made two broad assumptions: first, that loan charges will increase faster than inflation—4 per cent per annum for 2000-01 and 2001-02; and secondly, that expenditure will need to rise in line with inflation—by 2.5 per cent per annum.

Using those assumptions, I estimate that local authorities will need an extra £660 million in 2001

02. According to \"Serving Scotland's Needs\", the planned increase in funding for those years is only £490 million. That leaves a gap of £170 million that local authorities will have to find for themselves, either by putting up council taxes or by cutting services. I am afraid that that is not the end. Including the new commitments—or new burdens, as they are called—worsens the situation. I would like to list some of the more important ones. The new burdens include specific grants. Our research indicates that, after inflation, there will be a shortfall in that area of £14 million in 2000-01 and £44.6 million in 2001-02. Another burden is the expansion in child care. In September 1998, the Government announced an additional £91 million for the expansion of child care. That is not included in specific grants, but is part of central Government support and is not budgeted for in 2000-01, or the year after that. Estimated additional costs for that new burden in those years are £18.7 million and £22.4 million respectively.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:09:11.3687532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2110E214P424C709230", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gibson, Kenneth", "ID": 2110, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenneth Gibson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Gibson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 188.0, "ContributionID": 709230, "EditedText": "In 1998-99, local authorities estimated that they had spent an additional £41 million over and above the central allocation to support extra funding for pre-school education. Assuming that that top-up moves in line with inflation, by 2001-02, local authorities will need to find an additional £37 million not budgeted for. \"Serving Scotland's Needs\" estimates 2.5 per cent per annum for a teachers' pay increase. We all know that the Educational Institute of Scotland rejected the recent pay offer. If it accepts a future comparable offer, by 2001-02, the shortfall will be £100 million. Taking those figures cumulatively, local government faces a shortfall of nearly £400 million by 2001-02. That shortfall can be made up through cuts in council services or through an average 40 per cent increase in council tax across Scotland. That is the dishonesty that we face on the part of the Scottish Executive. It is the reality of new Labour: from the toll tax to the fuel escalator and the council tax, someone will always have to pay the bill.", "EditedTextHTML": "In 1998-99, local authorities estimated that they had spent an additional £41 million over and above the central allocation to support extra funding for pre-school education. Assuming that that top-up moves in line with inflation, by 2001-02, local authorities will need to find an additional £37 million not budgeted for.

\"Serving Scotland's Needs\" estimates 2.5 per cent per annum for a teachers' pay increase. We all know that the Educational Institute of Scotland rejected the recent pay offer. If it accepts a future comparable offer, by 2001-02, the shortfall will be £100 million.

Taking those figures cumulatively, local government faces a shortfall of nearly £400 million

by 2001-02. That shortfall can be made up through cuts in council services or through an average 40 per cent increase in council tax across Scotland. That is the dishonesty that we face on the part of the Scottish Executive. It is the reality of new Labour: from the toll tax to the fuel escalator and the council tax, someone will always have to pay the bill.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:09:11.3687532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2110E214P424C709232", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gibson, Kenneth", "ID": 2110, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenneth Gibson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Gibson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 192.0, "ContributionID": 709232, "EditedText": "I will take a brief intervention from Paul.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will take a brief intervention from Paul.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:09:11.3687532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2110E214P424C709234", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gibson, Kenneth", "ID": 2110, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenneth Gibson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Gibson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 196.0, "ContributionID": 709234, "EditedText": "If Paul Martin had listened to Andrew Wilson's speech, he would have known that he emphasised Gordon Brown's war chest. It is up to the Executive to demand that Scotland gets its fair share of that war chest, to ensure that services are not cut, that people do not have to pay more in taxes and that jobs are not lost. I will wind up—if I can remember where I was before Paul's intervention. I was not going to take an intervention, but I did, as it was from him. The Labour party has our assurance that we will spend every waking hour explaining to the people of Scotland that for every penny that is knocked off income tax, they will have to pay back double in stealth taxes, and for every penny bribe that is handed out at elections, the cost will be poorer public services, higher council taxes and fewer jobs.", "EditedTextHTML": "If Paul Martin had listened to Andrew Wilson's speech, he would have known that he emphasised Gordon Brown's war chest. It is up to the Executive to demand that Scotland gets its fair share of that war chest, to ensure that services are not cut, that people do not have to pay more in taxes and that jobs are not lost.

I will wind up—if I can remember where I was before Paul's intervention. I was not going to take an intervention, but I did, as it was from him.

The Labour party has our assurance that we will spend every waking hour explaining to the people of Scotland that for every penny that is knocked off income tax, they will have to pay back double in stealth taxes, and for every penny bribe that is handed out at elections, the cost will be poorer public services, higher council taxes and fewer jobs.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:09:11.3687532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C709291", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 319.0, "ContributionID": 709291, "EditedText": "I am grateful to Mr Scott for giving way on this important point about the representational role of the Secretary of State for Scotland on behalf of Scotland. To what extent does Mr Scott think that the First Minister—who was the Secretary of State for Scotland until a few months ago—ever raised objections within Her Majesty's Government about the impact of fuel prices and the fuel duty escalator on Scotland? If that was an issue that the secretary of state could handle, why did some of his colleagues vote against the fuel duty escalator before the election?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful to Mr Scott for giving way on this important point about the representational role of the Secretary of State for Scotland on behalf of Scotland. To what extent does Mr Scott think that the First Minister—who was the Secretary of State for Scotland until a few months ago—ever raised objections within Her Majesty's Government about the impact of fuel prices and the fuel duty escalator on Scotland? If that was an issue that the secretary of state could handle, why did some of his colleagues vote against the fuel duty escalator before the election?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:10:44.6159122+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C709147", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 17.0, "ContributionID": 709147, "EditedText": "That gets the Christmas party prize for the best intervention of the year—well organised, Mr Davidson. My thanks go to those—members will learn about them in a moment—who have passed us such a good legacy. We do not start with a blank sheet of paper. After two years of a prudent approach to public finances, we can spend an extra £1.8 billion on health in Scotland and we can spend an extra £1.3 billion on education. We are doing so while slashing Government borrowing. I call on everyone in this chamber to give credit where it is due. Scotland felt the scourge of mass unemployment under the Tories. Now, within two years of the new Labour Government's coming to power, unemployment is at its lowest for a quarter of a century—that is a Government delivering for the people. Interest, mortgage and inflation rates are also at their lowest levels for 30 years. All that has been achieved without increasing the tax burden on Scottish businesses and hard-working Scottish families. With Scotland's public finances now on a sound footing, our partnership is able to direct the people's money to their priorities. That is what this financial statement is about. It stands on the pillars of economic success, financial competence and social justice. There are those who will seek to use today's debate for the facile political point scoring of the past. I want to look to the future, to take responsibility and to use this debate well. This Executive will make the best use of public spending in Scotland, but we should not do so alone. I have started a major initiative to ensure that we achieve best value across central Government. We aim to ensure that, in Scotland, every pound of public money is used to maximum effect, with efficiencies identified and implemented and services delivered with only one objective—that the Scottish public, our customers, are entitled to the best and most cost-effective services to meet their needs. I will announce how we intend to take that forward in November and I invite the Opposition parties to engage with us to provide creative, workable ideas for the development of efficient services. I want to challenge them—I want to challenge the Conservatives and I want to challenge the SNP—to find common cause and become part of the solution and part of that future. I am announcing a significant increase in spending on key priority areas. I want to start by identifying how we have achieved that. Since our election in May, ministers have been discussing the estimates published previously and the review plans. We have carried out the most stringent review of our resources. In some cases, we have seized opportunities to save or redirect money. That has resulted in new opportunities for a sound strategic approach to be taken, allowing the new plans to be laid before Parliament today. I pay tribute to my ministerial colleagues who have worked together and carefully scrutinised their budgets to find how we can best match our priorities to our spending. We have worked together on this as Scottish ministers in partnership, and I want to thank my colleagues for their commitment. The new arrangements for end-year flexibility, introduced by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, have enabled us to carry forward significantly more money from last year to this and subsequent years. The arrangement is new; it is linked closely with the move to three-year settlements within the comprehensive spending review. In the past, unspent provision had, in many cases, to be returned to the Treasury, but now, the extent to which it can be carried forward from year to year has been extended and we are making full use of that facility. That will, of course, remain an important part of our budgeting process for the future, and I will be introducing rules for departments not only to encourage management innovation, but to help to create reserve funds year on year. That is appropriate for the creation by a new Parliament of a new financial framework for this legislature's decisions. However, I reserve the right to respond to any new developments as they occur. In addition, we have been looking at some moneys previously earmarked for the redemption of housing debt. The Scottish Homes debt has been reduced from £400 million in 1997 to £200 million now. Under previous arrangements, the Scottish Office had intended to make early repayments of this debt over the next three years and £59 million had been set aside for that purpose. We now propose to meet the debt charges over the life of the loan, rather than continuing with the arrangements of making up- front payments. NHS trusts have built up surplus working capital, which under Treasury rules they cannot spend. We intend to use this money to good effect, in an imaginative use of resources that were previously tied up and unusable. The effect of those changes is to reduce the published figures for spending on housing, but not to reduce the investment in housing. When the effects of those two technical changes are removed, the underlying investment profile for the communities programme shows a rising trend. Spending will increase by £50 million over the next three years. I will now discuss the process. This Parliament inherited expenditure plans for the current year and the two following years. With some minor adjustments, those were the plans that appeared in the final departmental report of the Scottish Office—\"Serving Scotland's Needs\"—which was published in March this year. In this year's spending plans, we are operating under the special transitional provisions laid down in the Scotland Act 1998. Under those special transitional arrangements, I will follow up this statement by presenting supplementary estimates at the end of the month. Those amendments to our spending plans for 1999-2000 will be presented to Parliament for implementation by order in council. For the next two financial years, 2000-01 and 2001-02, we enter for the first time the consultation process proposed in the Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill. As members will know, the Executive is committed to that process. Under the new arrangements, the process of this Parliament will be as follows. In the first part of any financial year, the Parliament and its committees will strategically consider Scotland's future requirements. The Parliament will have available to it the Executive's provisional forward plans. Those are being announced today and will be formally published in a new form to replace the departmental report in the spring. That exercise should help to define future directions in Scottish public spending. In the light of the outcome of that stage 1 process the Executive will, by October each year, publish its expenditure plans for the next financial year and its provisional plans for any following years. That is the point at which we are now. In this transitional year, we have not been able to fully implement the first stage. Today I am announcing the Executive's proposals for 2000-01 and estimates for 2001-02. The process that I will now describe deals with those two financial years. Later this month, I will issue more disaggregated plans for consultation with Parliament, the Finance Committee and the public. Members may safely assume that the figures that I announce today represent a clear view by the Executive of its strategic direction, but the figures for future years are not set in tablets of stone. I will agree our plans for producing more detailed figures for the Finance Committee with Mike Watson, the committee's convener, and the committee will consider our proposals over the weeks that follow. Our plans will also be subject to wider public consultation. My colleagues and I will pay careful attention to any recommendations that can be met from within existing budgets. The final stage of the process is the introduction and passage of a formal Budget Bill for one financial year, drawn up by the Scottish Executive in the light of comments received. The bill is the formal process of the Executive's seeking Parliament's authority for expenditure in 2000-01. I can announce today that I will introduce that bill to Parliament as early as possible in January. Looking beyond the present spending plans, I can say that the Treasury will conduct a spending review next year, which will, for the first time, provide figures for public spending by the Scottish Executive for the years 2002-03 and 2003-04. That review will be undertaken in accordance with the funding rules set out in the statement of funding policy; it will be the first real test of those rules. It is my firm intention to engage constructively in discussions with the Treasury in an open and transparent way. I hope that that sets the context and I make no apology for dwelling on it. It is important that all members know fully what is being discussed and in what context. It is important that all those inside and outside this chamber should understand the process. I turn now to the details of what I am proposing. I should advise members that tables of the figures underpinning my statement will be made available when I have finished making this statement. Our main aim has been to match expenditure with the priorities set out in the partnership agreement and the programme for government. My ministerial colleagues will make further announcements over the coming weeks on how they will be aligning spending priorities within their departments with our key strategic priorities. Let me demonstrate some aspects of that approach. In education, we will provide for after- school places, more books in schools and computers in classrooms. In terms of justice, there will be a new drugs enforcement agency, the implementation of drug treatment orders and renewed support for victims of crime and witnesses to crime. In enterprise and lifelong learning, we will provide support for increased access and the doubling of assistance to mature students on low incomes. In transport and the environment, there will be the creation of national parks, money will be provided for the Skye bridge tolls and there will be increased investment in water services. To help communities, there will be the coalfields regeneration trust, new housing partnerships, the rough sleepers initiative and initiatives for social inclusion. There will be money for rural affairs, including additional support for forestry and agri-environment schemes; further money will be available for agriculture in the spring. There will also be money for a new generation of walk-in, walk-out hospitals, one-stop clinics and healthy living centres. Those are just some examples of how we are putting our country's resources to work for the benefit of the people of Scotland. There will always be competing demands, but we will take the hard decisions that are required and we will do so openly and honestly. Of course circumstances will change and additional pressures will emerge—for example, the costs of this Parliament and its new building. The initial budget was drawn up over a year and a half ago, but it did not and could not accurately reflect all the emerging requirements of a fully operational Parliament. The new expenditure plans allow for revised costs for the new Scottish Parliament. It is essential that the Parliament is resourced to do its job effectively. However, a proper balance for expenditure must be struck and it is for the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body to identify that balance. For future years, we will agree a formal procedure to deal with estimates for the Parliament's running costs. The requirement for effective links with the rest of the UK is an essential component of the devolution settlement. The Secretary of State for Scotland is Scotland's voice in Whitehall and the UK Government's voice in Scotland for all those powers that have not been devolved. Effective liaison will continue to be essential to the future of Britain. It is essential that the office of the Secretary of State for Scotland is properly resourced—that office must be in a position to carry out its role effectively. A properly resourced Scotland Office is good for Scotland. The Scotland Office budget is likely to be about 0.03 per cent of Scotland's overall budget, and the plans allow for that. notice that some Scottish National party members are laughing. They will not be laughing when the Secretary of State for Scotland's negotiations on objective 2 of the European structural funds show the progress that can be made by an effective secretary of state arguing for us in Whitehall. Today I have attempted to provide some context for both my expenditure announcement and the wider financial processes of which it is a part. Let me conclude by emphasising that today's announcement is not just about financial processes, nor is it just about moving money around a balance sheet—it is about delivering the promises of the partnership. Eighty million pounds of new money is going into education, to maintain and build on Scotland's reputation for educational excellence and to guarantee our future as a knowledge-based society. We are making available £51 million to meet the school education commitments in the partnership agreement. I can announce today that £11 million is being allocated to develop a broadband information technology network to maximise the potential of our national learning grid initiative. The education minister will be making a further announcement in due course about the balance of that £51 million. That is our best investment—an investment for our children and our future. Some £29 million is available for enterprise and lifelong learning to encourage wider participation and increased access to further and higher education and £6 million is available to double assistance to low-income students. Pilot schemes will get £9 million to help lower-income students to stay on at school. We will provide £14 million for increased access funds for higher education students. Our plans are also about improving the society in which we live. For example, we will provide £10.5 million to establish a drugs enforcement agency, which will aim to tackle head on the scourge of drugs that stalks so many of our communities. The plans are also about coherent measures to protect future generations of young Scots. We are, therefore, carrying out a comprehensive audit of all resources currently directed towards education and rehabilitation. The objective is to maximise quality provision and to refocus existing resources into effective drug education and rehabilitation services. In line with our commitment to safeguard and protect the health of Scotland's children, I am very pleased to confirm that the estimates for health and community care include £17 million of new money for introducing a Scotland-wide vaccination programme for meningitis C in Scotland. Susan Deacon will make a statement within the next few weeks providing details of the programme. The E coli outbreak in Wishaw in my constituency was a reminder of the need for the new Food Standards Agency. Today's plans include £6 million to fund the agency. As was announced yesterday, it will be located in Aberdeen and will play a key role in ensuring that the Scottish people have food that is safe to eat. The Executive listens to the women in this Parliament and in Scotland. The significant number of women members of Parliament will make a difference to the policies that we will pursue. They include delivering after-school care provision to enable more women to return to work; improving the health of babies and young children, particularly in our poorest communities; improving the quality, speed and availability of important women's health services such as breast cancer screening, diagnosis and treatment; and addressing the problem of domestic violence to ensure consistent service provision across Scotland and to change society's attitudes— because there is no excuse for domestic abuse. Wendy Alexander will be making a further announcement shortly. We listen to business groups and local communities as well. For years, the roads programme of the Scottish Office was cut. The comprehensive spending review started to change that and new money for maintenance was included, although we are all aware of the pressure for new and improved trunk roads. Following all the representations made to Sarah Boyack, Henry McLeish and other ministers over the summer, I am very pleased to be recommending in this statement an increase of £35 million to the roads programme. I know that, given the underinvestment of 18 years of Conservative government, that is not a lot of money, but it will allow a modest start on a long- standing issue. Sarah Boyack will address the allocation of the money when she announces the outcome of the review. Today's is not the first ever Scottish expenditure plan, but it is the first that is subject to democratic decisions made only here in Scotland. This is a special day and I hope that we have a quality debate. If we will it, today's decisions can change people's lives for good. Across Scotland, our decisions, made here in Edinburgh, can secure the quality of life our people deserve. It is their money and it is our duty; whatever we decide must meet their priorities. We have listened and know that improving schools and hospitals, tackling crime and creating a fairer society are the people's priorities. That is what we aim to deliver. We aim for Scottish solutions to Scottish problems. This is a Scottish financial statement—the first Scottish financial statement. It is not a budget in the traditional sense but it will lead to the first annual Scottish Budget Bill. It builds on the current economic success of the UK but the statement is made in Scotland. It integrates what we do in the UK and Europe but the decisions will be made here. It includes no cuts but it is prudent and modest. It is tidy and practical but it also reflects the largest ever short-term injection of new money into Scottish public services, so investing in the future of every constituency represented here. It will make a difference and I commend it to all members.", "EditedTextHTML": "That gets the Christmas party prize for the best intervention of the year—well organised, Mr Davidson.

My thanks go to those—members will learn about them in a moment—who have passed us such a good legacy. We do not start with a blank sheet of paper. After two years of a prudent approach to public finances, we can spend an extra £1.8 billion on health in Scotland and we can spend an extra £1.3 billion on education. We are doing so while slashing Government borrowing.

I call on everyone in this chamber to give credit where it is due. Scotland felt the scourge of mass unemployment under the Tories. Now, within two years of the new Labour Government's coming to power, unemployment is at its lowest for a quarter of a century—that is a Government delivering for the people. Interest, mortgage and inflation rates are also at their lowest levels for 30 years. All that has been achieved without increasing the tax burden on Scottish businesses and hard-working Scottish families.

With Scotland's public finances now on a sound footing, our partnership is able to direct the people's money to their priorities. That is what this financial statement is about. It stands on the pillars of economic success, financial competence and social justice.

There are those who will seek to use today's debate for the facile political point scoring of the past. I want to look to the future, to take responsibility and to use this debate well. This Executive will make the best use of public spending in Scotland, but we should not do so alone.

I have started a major initiative to ensure that we achieve best value across central Government. We aim to ensure that, in Scotland, every pound of public money is used to maximum effect, with efficiencies identified and implemented and services delivered with only one objective—that the Scottish public, our customers, are entitled to the best and most cost-effective services to meet their needs. I will announce how we intend to take that forward in November and I invite the Opposition parties to engage with us to provide creative, workable ideas for the development of efficient services. I want to challenge them—I want to challenge the Conservatives and I want to challenge the SNP—to find common cause and become part of the solution and part of that future.

I am announcing a significant increase in spending on key priority areas. I want to start by identifying how we have achieved that. Since our election in May, ministers have been discussing the estimates published previously and the review plans. We have carried out the most stringent review of our resources. In some cases, we have seized opportunities to save or redirect money. That has resulted in new opportunities for a sound strategic approach to be taken, allowing the new plans to be laid before Parliament today.

I pay tribute to my ministerial colleagues who have worked together and carefully scrutinised their budgets to find how we can best match our priorities to our spending. We have worked together on this as Scottish ministers in partnership, and I want to thank my colleagues for their commitment.

The new arrangements for end-year flexibility, introduced by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, have enabled us to carry forward significantly more money from last year to this and subsequent years. The arrangement is new; it is linked closely with the move to three-year settlements within the comprehensive spending review. In the past, unspent provision had, in many cases, to be returned to the Treasury, but now, the extent to which it can be carried forward from year to year has been extended and we are making full use of that facility. That will, of course, remain an important part of our budgeting process for the future, and I will be introducing rules for departments not only to encourage management innovation, but to help to create reserve funds year on year. That is appropriate for the creation by a new Parliament of a new financial framework for this legislature's decisions. However, I reserve the right to respond to any new developments as they occur.

In addition, we have been looking at some moneys previously earmarked for the redemption of housing debt. The Scottish Homes debt has been reduced from £400 million in 1997 to £200 million now. Under previous arrangements, the Scottish Office had intended to make early repayments of this debt over the next three years and £59 million had been set aside for that purpose. We now propose to meet the debt charges over the life of the loan, rather than continuing with the arrangements of making up- front payments.

NHS trusts have built up surplus working capital, which under Treasury rules they cannot spend. We intend to use this money to good effect, in an imaginative use of resources that were previously

tied up and unusable. The effect of those changes is to reduce the published figures for spending on housing, but not to reduce the investment in housing. When the effects of those two technical changes are removed, the underlying investment profile for the communities programme shows a rising trend. Spending will increase by £50 million over the next three years.

I will now discuss the process. This Parliament inherited expenditure plans for the current year and the two following years. With some minor adjustments, those were the plans that appeared in the final departmental report of the Scottish Office—\"Serving Scotland's Needs\"—which was published in March this year.

In this year's spending plans, we are operating under the special transitional provisions laid down in the Scotland Act 1998. Under those special transitional arrangements, I will follow up this statement by presenting supplementary estimates at the end of the month. Those amendments to our spending plans for 1999-2000 will be presented to Parliament for implementation by order in council.

For the next two financial years, 2000-01 and 2001-02, we enter for the first time the consultation process proposed in the Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill. As members will know, the Executive is committed to that process. Under the new arrangements, the process of this Parliament will be as follows. In the first part of any financial year, the Parliament and its committees will strategically consider Scotland's future requirements. The Parliament will have available to it the Executive's provisional forward plans. Those are being announced today and will be formally published in a new form to replace the departmental report in the spring. That exercise should help to define future directions in Scottish public spending.

In the light of the outcome of that stage 1 process the Executive will, by October each year, publish its expenditure plans for the next financial year and its provisional plans for any following years. That is the point at which we are now. In this transitional year, we have not been able to fully implement the first stage. Today I am announcing the Executive's proposals for 2000-01 and estimates for 2001-02.

The process that I will now describe deals with those two financial years. Later this month, I will issue more disaggregated plans for consultation with Parliament, the Finance Committee and the public. Members may safely assume that the figures that I announce today represent a clear view by the Executive of its strategic direction, but the figures for future years are not set in tablets of stone. I will agree our plans for producing more detailed figures for the Finance Committee with

Mike Watson, the committee's convener, and the committee will consider our proposals over the weeks that follow. Our plans will also be subject to wider public consultation. My colleagues and I will pay careful attention to any recommendations that can be met from within existing budgets.

The final stage of the process is the introduction and passage of a formal Budget Bill for one financial year, drawn up by the Scottish Executive in the light of comments received. The bill is the formal process of the Executive's seeking Parliament's authority for expenditure in 2000-01. I can announce today that I will introduce that bill to Parliament as early as possible in January.

Looking beyond the present spending plans, I can say that the Treasury will conduct a spending review next year, which will, for the first time, provide figures for public spending by the Scottish Executive for the years 2002-03 and 2003-04. That review will be undertaken in accordance with the funding rules set out in the statement of funding policy; it will be the first real test of those rules. It is my firm intention to engage constructively in discussions with the Treasury in an open and transparent way.

I hope that that sets the context and I make no apology for dwelling on it. It is important that all members know fully what is being discussed and in what context. It is important that all those inside and outside this chamber should understand the process.

I turn now to the details of what I am proposing. I should advise members that tables of the figures underpinning my statement will be made available when I have finished making this statement.

Our main aim has been to match expenditure with the priorities set out in the partnership agreement and the programme for government. My ministerial colleagues will make further announcements over the coming weeks on how they will be aligning spending priorities within their departments with our key strategic priorities.

Let me demonstrate some aspects of that approach. In education, we will provide for after- school places, more books in schools and computers in classrooms. In terms of justice, there will be a new drugs enforcement agency, the implementation of drug treatment orders and renewed support for victims of crime and witnesses to crime.

In enterprise and lifelong learning, we will provide support for increased access and the doubling of assistance to mature students on low incomes. In transport and the environment, there will be the creation of national parks, money will be provided for the Skye bridge tolls and there will be increased investment in water services.

To help communities, there will be the coalfields regeneration trust, new housing partnerships, the rough sleepers initiative and initiatives for social inclusion. There will be money for rural affairs, including additional support for forestry and agri-environment schemes; further money will be available for agriculture in the spring. There will also be money for a new generation of walk-in, walk-out hospitals, one-stop clinics and healthy living centres.

Those are just some examples of how we are putting our country's resources to work for the benefit of the people of Scotland. There will always be competing demands, but we will take the hard decisions that are required and we will do so openly and honestly.

Of course circumstances will change and additional pressures will emerge—for example, the costs of this Parliament and its new building. The initial budget was drawn up over a year and a half ago, but it did not and could not accurately reflect all the emerging requirements of a fully operational Parliament. The new expenditure plans allow for revised costs for the new Scottish Parliament. It is essential that the Parliament is resourced to do its job effectively. However, a proper balance for expenditure must be struck and it is for the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body to identify that balance. For future years, we will agree a formal procedure to deal with estimates for the Parliament's running costs.

The requirement for effective links with the rest of the UK is an essential component of the devolution settlement. The Secretary of State for Scotland is Scotland's voice in Whitehall and the UK Government's voice in Scotland for all those powers that have not been devolved. Effective liaison will continue to be essential to the future of Britain. It is essential that the office of the Secretary of State for Scotland is properly resourced—that office must be in a position to carry out its role effectively. A properly resourced Scotland Office is good for Scotland. The Scotland Office budget is likely to be about 0.03 per cent of Scotland's overall budget, and the plans allow for that. notice that some Scottish National party members are laughing. They will not be laughing when the Secretary of State for Scotland's negotiations on objective 2 of the European structural funds show the progress that can be made by an effective secretary of state arguing for us in Whitehall.

Today I have attempted to provide some context for both my expenditure announcement and the wider financial processes of which it is a part. Let me conclude by emphasising that today's announcement is not just about financial processes, nor is it just about moving money around a balance sheet—it is about delivering the promises of the partnership.

Eighty million pounds of new money is going into education, to maintain and build on Scotland's reputation for educational excellence and to guarantee our future as a knowledge-based society. We are making available £51 million to meet the school education commitments in the partnership agreement. I can announce today that £11 million is being allocated to develop a broadband information technology network to maximise the potential of our national learning grid initiative. The education minister will be making a further announcement in due course about the balance of that £51 million. That is our best investment—an investment for our children and our future.

Some £29 million is available for enterprise and lifelong learning to encourage wider participation and increased access to further and higher education and £6 million is available to double assistance to low-income students. Pilot schemes will get £9 million to help lower-income students to stay on at school. We will provide £14 million for increased access funds for higher education students.

Our plans are also about improving the society in which we live. For example, we will provide £10.5 million to establish a drugs enforcement agency, which will aim to tackle head on the scourge of drugs that stalks so many of our communities. The plans are also about coherent measures to protect future generations of young Scots. We are, therefore, carrying out a comprehensive audit of all resources currently directed towards education and rehabilitation. The objective is to maximise quality provision and to refocus existing resources into effective drug education and rehabilitation services.

In line with our commitment to safeguard and protect the health of Scotland's children, I am very pleased to confirm that the estimates for health and community care include £17 million of new money for introducing a Scotland-wide vaccination programme for meningitis C in Scotland. Susan Deacon will make a statement within the next few weeks providing details of the programme.

The E coli outbreak in Wishaw in my constituency was a reminder of the need for the new Food Standards Agency. Today's plans include £6 million to fund the agency. As was announced yesterday, it will be located in Aberdeen and will play a key role in ensuring that the Scottish people have food that is safe to eat.

The Executive listens to the women in this Parliament and in Scotland. The significant number of women members of Parliament will make a difference to the policies that we will pursue. They include delivering after-school care

provision to enable more women to return to work; improving the health of babies and young children, particularly in our poorest communities; improving the quality, speed and availability of important women's health services such as breast cancer screening, diagnosis and treatment; and addressing the problem of domestic violence to ensure consistent service provision across Scotland and to change society's attitudes— because there is no excuse for domestic abuse. Wendy Alexander will be making a further announcement shortly.

We listen to business groups and local communities as well. For years, the roads programme of the Scottish Office was cut. The comprehensive spending review started to change that and new money for maintenance was included, although we are all aware of the pressure for new and improved trunk roads. Following all the representations made to Sarah Boyack, Henry McLeish and other ministers over the summer, I am very pleased to be recommending in this statement an increase of £35 million to the roads programme. I know that, given the underinvestment of 18 years of Conservative government, that is not a lot of money, but it will allow a modest start on a long- standing issue. Sarah Boyack will address the allocation of the money when she announces the outcome of the review.

Today's is not the first ever Scottish expenditure plan, but it is the first that is subject to democratic decisions made only here in Scotland. This is a special day and I hope that we have a quality debate. If we will it, today's decisions can change people's lives for good. Across Scotland, our decisions, made here in Edinburgh, can secure the quality of life our people deserve. It is their money and it is our duty; whatever we decide must meet their priorities. We have listened and know that improving schools and hospitals, tackling crime and creating a fairer society are the people's priorities. That is what we aim to deliver. We aim for Scottish solutions to Scottish problems.

This is a Scottish financial statement—the first Scottish financial statement. It is not a budget in the traditional sense but it will lead to the first annual Scottish Budget Bill. It builds on the current economic success of the UK but the statement is made in Scotland. It integrates what we do in the UK and Europe but the decisions will be made here. It includes no cuts but it is prudent and modest. It is tidy and practical but it also reflects the largest ever short-term injection of new money into Scottish public services, so investing in the future of every constituency represented here. It will make a difference and I commend it to all members.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C709145", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Finance (Mr Jack McConnell): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 13.0, "ContributionID": 709145, "EditedText": "Thank you, Presiding Officer. I, for one, am glad that you are here and not in Canada. This is a statement on the Scottish Executive's plans to reallocate public expenditure for the years 1999-2000, 2000-01 and 2001-02. When we in Scottish new Labour and the Scottish Liberal Democrats agreed to work together to deliver for Scotland the stable and co-operative Government that the people of Scotland expected and deserved, we published immediately in the \"Partnership for Scotland\" document our policy agreements for the first term of the Parliament. In September, we built on those agreements and set out in our programme for government a detailed, timetabled work plan for delivery of our agreed priorities. Those priorities reflect the fact that we want a country where our children can be healthy and play in a safe environment; where our young people can achieve their full potential through a first-class, modern system of education; where our families can raise their children, safe in the knowledge that they will be cared for if things go wrong and that they will be free to express their creativity and enterprise in the work place; and where our senior citizens live at peace, in safe neighbourhoods and can see out their days in comfort. At the root of all that, our driving ambition—our prime motivation—is that we want a country where someone's postcode does not affect their life chances. Today's Scottish financial statement delivers on those commitments. It is the third piece in our strategic plan. The partnership agreement set out what we had agreed; the programme for government sets out when those agreements will be delivered; and today's statement sets out the details of how we will fund that programme. The final stage will be the process of monitoring, evaluation and review—but that will come later. My thanks go to those who have passed us such a good legacy.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you, Presiding Officer. I, for one, am glad that you are here and not in Canada.

This is a statement on the Scottish Executive's plans to reallocate public expenditure for the years 1999-2000, 2000-01 and 2001-02.

When we in Scottish new Labour and the Scottish Liberal Democrats agreed to work together to deliver for Scotland the stable and co-operative Government that the people of Scotland expected and deserved, we published immediately in the \"Partnership for Scotland\" document our policy agreements for the first term of the Parliament.

In September, we built on those agreements and set out in our programme for government a detailed, timetabled work plan for delivery of our agreed priorities. Those priorities reflect the fact that we want a country where our children can be healthy and play in a safe environment; where our young people can achieve their full potential through a first-class, modern system of education; where our families can raise their children, safe in the knowledge that they will be cared for if things go wrong and that they will be free to express their creativity and enterprise in the work place; and where our senior citizens live at peace, in safe neighbourhoods and can see out their days in comfort. At the root of all that, our driving ambition—our prime motivation—is that we want a country where someone's postcode does not affect their life chances.

Today's Scottish financial statement delivers on those commitments. It is the third piece in our strategic plan. The partnership agreement set out

what we had agreed; the programme for government sets out when those agreements will be delivered; and today's statement sets out the details of how we will fund that programme. The final stage will be the process of monitoring, evaluation and review—but that will come later.

My thanks go to those who have passed us such a good legacy.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709148", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 19.0, "ContributionID": 709148, "EditedText": "Members who wish to ask questions should press their buttons now. I remind everybody of the restrictive nature of the questions that may be asked on the statement.", "EditedTextHTML": "Members who wish to ask questions should press their buttons now. I remind everybody of the restrictive nature of the questions that may be asked on the statement.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2112E192P495C709155", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacAskill, Kenny", "ID": 2112, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenny MacAskill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Kenny MacAskill (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 33.0, "ContributionID": 709155, "EditedText": "Can the minister tell us how expenditure on transport and the environment seems to have increased by £600 million on 1995-96? That is a massive jump—where does that figure come from?", "EditedTextHTML": "Can the minister tell us how expenditure on transport and the environment seems to have increased by £600 million on 1995-96? That is a massive jump—where does that figure come from?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.6077311+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C709156", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 35.0, "ContributionID": 709156, "EditedText": "The increases in expenditure on transport and the environment reflect a number of changes. The particular change on 1995-96 is a result of money being transferred from local authorities to the new water boards which were created in 1995.", "EditedTextHTML": "The increases in expenditure on transport and the environment reflect a number of changes. The particular change on 1995-96 is a result of money being transferred from local authorities to the new water boards which were created in 1995.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.6077311+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C709160", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 43.0, "ContributionID": 709160, "EditedText": "That is a matter for the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities and the teachers through the normal negotiating machinery. However, I make two points on the matter. First, my colleague Mr Galbraith recently announced a review of teachers' pay and conditions; we have to await the outcome of that review before we allocate specific budgets to meet any recommendations. Secondly, I made it clear in my speech that I reserve the right to respond to developments as they occur in that and in other areas.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is a matter for the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities and the teachers through the normal negotiating machinery. However, I make two points on the matter. First, my colleague Mr Galbraith recently announced a review of teachers' pay and conditions; we have to await the outcome of that review before we allocate specific budgets to meet any recommendations. Secondly, I made it clear in my speech that I reserve the right to respond to developments as they occur in that and in other areas.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.6077311+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1762E216P508C709163", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Elder, Dorothy-Grace", "ID": 1762, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 49.0, "ContributionID": 709163, "EditedText": "How much of the increased budget for maintaining the Parliament will the Scottish Executive be spending on so-called special advisers? How many of those people—who are paid for with taxpayers' money— are there? Last year, it was estimated that each spin doctor—as they are more popularly and correctly called—was costing taxpayers £144,000, which includes the cost of their private secretaries, travel and so on.", "EditedTextHTML": "How much of the increased budget for maintaining the Parliament will the Scottish Executive be spending on so-called special advisers? How many of those people—who are paid for with taxpayers' money— are there? Last year, it was estimated that each spin doctor—as they are more popularly and correctly called—was costing taxpayers £144,000, which includes the cost of their private secretaries, travel and so on.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.6077311+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1762E216P508C709165", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Elder, Dorothy-Grace", "ID": 1762, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 53.0, "ContributionID": 709165, "EditedText": "Does it not?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does it not?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.6077311+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C709166", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 55.0, "ContributionID": 709166, "EditedText": "To some extent the answer to that question has been recorded in the Executive's responses to colleagues' parliamentary questions. Further details will be made available in the near future in the form of written answers. However, it is a bit rich for somebody who voted for increased allowances in June to complain. We should be consistent about such matters—I certainly will be.", "EditedTextHTML": "To some extent the answer to that question has been recorded in the Executive's responses to colleagues' parliamentary questions. Further details will be made available in the near future in the form of written answers. However, it is a bit rich for somebody who voted for increased allowances in June to complain. We should be consistent about such matters—I certainly will be.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.6077311+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C709167", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Annabel Goldie (West of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 57.0, "ContributionID": 709167, "EditedText": "The minister said that the Executive would be aligning spending priorities within its departments with key strategic priorities. However, he did not say anything about enterprise. Is that no longer a key strategic priority?", "EditedTextHTML": "The minister said that the Executive would be aligning spending priorities within its departments with key strategic priorities. However, he did not say anything about enterprise. Is that no longer a key strategic priority?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.6077311+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1926E190P479C709169", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Adam, Brian", "ID": 1926, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Adam", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Brian Adam (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 61.0, "ContributionID": 709169, "EditedText": "The minister referred to education and rehabilitation services to deal with drug misuse. Does that include moneys for detoxification as well as for rehabilitation facilities?", "EditedTextHTML": "The minister referred to education and rehabilitation services to deal with drug misuse. Does that include moneys for detoxification as well as for rehabilitation facilities?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.6077311+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C709170", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 63.0, "ContributionID": 709170, "EditedText": "A number of questions may be asked today about specific lines in the budget. I have given the convener of the Finance Committee a guarantee that we will issue the committee with detailed level 2 figures for all budgets, rather than publish them today in the chamber. That is appropriate. As I said, I am aware that an audit of the resources to which Brian Adam referred is being prepared. Once it is complete, Mr MacKay and, I presume, Mr Wallace will make detailed statements to the chamber.", "EditedTextHTML": "A number of questions may be asked today about specific lines in the budget. I have given the convener of the Finance Committee a guarantee that we will issue the committee with detailed level 2 figures for all budgets, rather than publish them today in the chamber. That is appropriate.

As I said, I am aware that an audit of the resources to which Brian Adam referred is being prepared. Once it is complete, Mr MacKay and, I presume, Mr Wallace will make detailed statements to the chamber.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.6077311+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2029E47P167C709171", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Henry, Hugh", "ID": 2029, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Hugh Henry", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Hugh Henry (Paisley South) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 65.0, "ContributionID": 709171, "EditedText": "Will the minister confirm that there will be no changes to the expenditure plans as a result of any decision that is made on European funding?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister confirm that there will be no changes to the expenditure plans as a result of any decision that is made on European funding?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.6077311+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C709172", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 67.0, "ContributionID": 709172, "EditedText": "Changes to the expenditure plans will be for this Parliament and no one else.", "EditedTextHTML": "Changes to the expenditure plans will be for this Parliament and no one else.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.6077311+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C709174", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 71.0, "ContributionID": 709174, "EditedText": "This is definitely new money. I do not want to overstate what it will do to reverse the underinvestment that at least one of the parties in this chamber supported for a number of years, but it is important that we start tackling some of the outstanding issues in Ayrshire and elsewhere. However, I leave the details of that to my colleague Sarah Boyack, who later this year will announce the outcome of the roads review. This is new money over two years.", "EditedTextHTML": "This is definitely new money. I do not want to overstate what it will do to reverse the underinvestment that at least one of the parties in this chamber supported for a number of years, but it is important that we start tackling some of the outstanding issues in Ayrshire and elsewhere. However, I leave the details of that to my colleague Sarah Boyack, who later this year will announce the outcome of the roads review. This is new money over two years.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C709177", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan (Glasgow) (SSP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 77.0, "ContributionID": 709177, "EditedText": "In his statement, the minister claimed that this budget included no cuts in expenditure. Does this budget mean that there will be no cuts in local authority expenditure throughout Scotland and will the minister condemn any subsequent cuts? He also mentioned objective 2 European structural funds. Will he deny that South Ayrshire and South Lanarkshire are to be excluded from objective 2 funding?", "EditedTextHTML": "In his statement, the minister claimed that this budget included no cuts in expenditure. Does this budget mean that there will be no cuts in local authority expenditure throughout Scotland and will the minister condemn any subsequent cuts? He also mentioned objective 2 European structural funds. Will he deny that South Ayrshire and South Lanarkshire are to be excluded from objective 2 funding?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C709182", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 88.0, "ContributionID": 709182, "EditedText": "I welcome today's debate and thank the Executive for the courtesy of a few moments' foreknowledge of the contents of the speech. However, the Executive clearly calculated that time in order to make it just too close to the debate to prevent the SNP from running our spreadsheet model—thank you for that. On Radio Scotland this morning, we heard two news lines from the Minister for Finance's office. First, he was to announce an extra £80 million for education and, secondly, there would be new funding for waiting time reduction. The first was announced in May and the second was announced three weeks ago—although it did not make it into the minister's speech. I congratulate the minister on not pre-announcing too much that we did not know in advance. It is a pity that the minister's Labour colleague, Brian Wilson, did not follow the same principle of probity. In The Herald yesterday, we read that Brian Wilson had merrily briefed one of his favoured journalists on the fact that the Scotland Office is to have a cost overrun in its planned spending next year, taking spending to £5.7 million. That is more than double the original estimate and represents a cost overrun of 138 per cent—I note that that was not mentioned in the minister's statement. Brian Wilson described the cost overrun as \"extremely modest\". I must tell him that it represents the worst financial record of any Westminster department in history. It makes North Lanarkshire Council—the minister's home council, as it were—seem a model of probity and good management. The minister spoke in passing of the value of the Scotland Office and the objective 2 debate. Can he confirm in his summation whether objective 2 decisions will make any difference to the bottom line? A moment ago, in response to a question, he seemed to say that it would not. I return to the revelation about the Scotland Office. I referred to it at the start of my speech because I think it is an offence to the supposed openness of this new democracy. It is no surprise that the man behind it—Brian Wilson—never wanted a Scottish Parliament in the first place. It is a disgrace that an ambitious London MP can play politics with Scotland's budget and Scotland's public finances. Just as serious, however, are the wider implications. Who is in charge of the budget process—the Minister for Finance or Brian Wilson? How can the Scotland Office claw into the Scottish Parliament's budget? I warned the chamber of that possibility in the past and in a matter of weeks it seems that it has already happened in a cost overrun of 138 per cent. That is constitutionally unsustainable and I ask the minister to identify any constitutional mechanism that he is aware of in the devolution settlement that can stop the Scotland Office taking as much as it wants from Scotland's budget to feather its own nest and promote its own narrow political agenda.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome today's debate and thank the Executive for the courtesy of a few moments' foreknowledge of the contents of the speech. However, the Executive clearly calculated that time in order to make it just too close to the debate to prevent the SNP from running our spreadsheet model—thank you for that.

On Radio Scotland this morning, we heard two news lines from the Minister for Finance's office. First, he was to announce an extra £80 million for education and, secondly, there would be new funding for waiting time reduction. The first was announced in May and the second was announced three weeks ago—although it did not make it into the minister's speech. I congratulate the minister on not pre-announcing too much that we did not know in advance.

It is a pity that the minister's Labour colleague, Brian Wilson, did not follow the same principle of probity. In The Herald yesterday, we read that Brian Wilson had merrily briefed one of his favoured journalists on the fact that the Scotland Office is to have a cost overrun in its planned spending next year, taking spending to £5.7 million. That is more than double the original estimate and represents a cost overrun of 138 per cent—I note that that was not mentioned in the minister's statement.

Brian Wilson described the cost overrun as \"extremely modest\". I must tell him that it represents the worst financial record of any Westminster department in history. It makes North Lanarkshire Council—the minister's home council, as it were—seem a model of probity and good management.

The minister spoke in passing of the value of the Scotland Office and the objective 2 debate. Can he confirm in his summation whether objective 2 decisions will make any difference to the bottom line? A moment ago, in response to a question, he seemed to say that it would not.

I return to the revelation about the Scotland Office. I referred to it at the start of my speech because I think it is an offence to the supposed openness of this new democracy. It is no surprise that the man behind it—Brian Wilson—never wanted a Scottish Parliament in the first place. It is a disgrace that an ambitious London MP can play

politics with Scotland's budget and Scotland's public finances.

Just as serious, however, are the wider implications. Who is in charge of the budget process—the Minister for Finance or Brian Wilson? How can the Scotland Office claw into the Scottish Parliament's budget? I warned the chamber of that possibility in the past and in a matter of weeks it seems that it has already happened in a cost overrun of 138 per cent. That is constitutionally unsustainable and I ask the minister to identify any constitutional mechanism that he is aware of in the devolution settlement that can stop the Scotland Office taking as much as it wants from Scotland's budget to feather its own nest and promote its own narrow political agenda.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C709185", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 94.0, "ContributionID": 709185, "EditedText": "It is a fact; the Minister for Communities cannot deny it. On health, around £700 million less is being spent than if we had frozen health spending at the 1994-95 level of GDP share under Ian Lang. That is a fact. On industry, enterprise and training, the difference is about £1.3 billion less. On education, the figure is similarly large—around £500 million. The second point that the Minister for Finance must wrestle with is the Barnett squeeze.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is a fact; the Minister for Communities cannot deny it.

On health, around £700 million less is being spent than if we had frozen health spending at the 1994-95 level of GDP share under Ian Lang. That is a fact. On industry, enterprise and training, the difference is about £1.3 billion less. On education, the figure is similarly large—around £500 million.

The second point that the Minister for Finance must wrestle with is the Barnett squeeze.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C709187", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 98.0, "ContributionID": 709187, "EditedText": "I am grateful for the intervention, but—with respect to Mr Chisholm, who I know has some commitment to public services—if one commits less of the nation's wealth to public services, one does not respond to the needs of the day. If the country progresses as the economy progresses, surely public services should keep pace. If they do not, they fade and fall behind. The reality is that, in London and in Edinburgh, Labour is playing a dishonest game. A Government's priority can be either right-wing tax cuts or investment in public services—it cannot be both. Gordon Brown—the real chancellor—is sitting on a war chest that The Observer estimates will be worth more than £60 billion in the next five years and will be worth even more if it is taken over the Maastricht threshold. We in Scotland should note that, despite the economically inept doom-saying of the Labour party before the election, oil and gas revenues will supply one third of that money—£20 billion. That is the amount that is being lost by public services to pay for tax cuts, pre-election bribes and a dishonest, right-wing agenda. That is wrong, it leads to bad governance and, in the words of Neil Kinnock, is \"irrelevant to the real needs\".Can the Labour party think that it is proper to use public resources merely to get Gordon Brown the tag of \"the iron chancellor\"? Or does it agree with us that it is more important to invest our resources in schools, hospitals, housing and infrastructure? This is a Government that announces first and thinks second. It makes budget commitments without knowing where the money is coming from and, in a range of policy areas, the Government chases a cheap headline and is not interested in good government. The Parliament must examine what is being done in its name and in that of the people. The information that we have been given today does not allow us to do that. Today is about overall investment in public services and whether we judge that we are putting enough of our nation's wealth into public services. As a Parliament and as an Opposition, we will pore over the detail of all expenditure and, more important, of policy outcome—what is happening on the ground is the most important thing. Big numbers mean nothing to people who are seeing their hospitals and schools decay and their environment suffer—I am grateful to Mr Chisholm for that point. When we come to the formal budget process next year, we will need a much greater openness about Government policy and decision making than we have now so that we can begin to make improvements in public services, within the constrained context that we find ourselves in. My key message, however, is that an Executive that acts as a conduit for decisions taken by one of the most right-wing London Governments in our history is utterly inadequate for Scotland's future. We need the chance to make responsible choices about how to allocate our own resources to meet our own needs in a way that provides modern and effective solutions that are tailored to our own requirements. To get to that point, we need enough honesty and openness to address the weaknesses in the Parliament's position and to try to enhance and strengthen Scotland's new democracy—to nurture it, in the words of the Presiding Officer on the opening day. We owe it to the people of Scotland not to stand by while our cherished public services are demolished. The solution is in our hands.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful for the intervention, but—with respect to Mr Chisholm, who I know has some commitment to public services—if one commits less of the nation's wealth to public services, one does not respond to the needs of the day. If the country progresses as the economy progresses, surely public services should keep pace. If they do not, they fade and fall behind.

The reality is that, in London and in Edinburgh, Labour is playing a dishonest game. A Government's priority can be either right-wing tax cuts or investment in public services—it cannot be both.

Gordon Brown—the real chancellor—is sitting on a war chest that The Observer estimates will be worth more than £60 billion in the next five years and will be worth even more if it is taken over the Maastricht threshold. We in Scotland should note that, despite the economically inept doom-saying of the Labour party before the election, oil and gas revenues will supply one third of that money—£20 billion. That is the amount that is being lost by public services to pay for tax cuts, pre-election bribes and a dishonest, right-wing agenda. That is wrong, it leads to bad governance and, in the words of Neil Kinnock, is

\"irrelevant to the real needs\".

Can the Labour party think that it is proper to use public resources merely to get Gordon Brown the tag of \"the iron chancellor\"? Or does it agree with us that it is more important to invest our resources in schools, hospitals, housing and infrastructure? This is a Government that announces first and thinks second. It makes budget commitments without knowing where the money is coming from and, in a range of policy areas, the Government chases a cheap headline and is not interested in good government.

The Parliament must examine what is being done in its name and in that of the people. The information that we have been given today does not allow us to do that. Today is about overall investment in public services and whether we judge that we are putting enough of our nation's wealth into public services. As a Parliament and as an Opposition, we will pore over the detail of all expenditure and, more important, of policy outcome—what is happening on the ground is the most important thing.

Big numbers mean nothing to people who are seeing their hospitals and schools decay and their environment suffer—I am grateful to Mr Chisholm for that point.

When we come to the formal budget process next year, we will need a much greater openness about Government policy and decision making than we have now so that we can begin to make improvements in public services, within the constrained context that we find ourselves in.

My key message, however, is that an Executive that acts as a conduit for decisions taken by one of the most right-wing London Governments in our history is utterly inadequate for Scotland's future. We need the chance to make responsible choices about how to allocate our own resources to meet our own needs in a way that provides modern and effective solutions that are tailored to our own requirements. To get to that point, we need enough honesty and openness to address the weaknesses in the Parliament's position and to try to enhance and strengthen Scotland's new democracy—to nurture it, in the words of the Presiding Officer on the opening day.

We owe it to the people of Scotland not to stand by while our cherished public services are demolished. The solution is in our hands.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C709190", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Keith Raffan (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 105.0, "ContributionID": 709190, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "

Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C709191", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Davidson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 107.0, "ContributionID": 709191, "EditedText": "While I am swallowing my water, certainly.", "EditedTextHTML": "While I am swallowing my water, certainly.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C709192", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 109.0, "ContributionID": 709192, "EditedText": "I am a bit confused about Tory policy; can Mr Davidson clarify it, in view of Mr Hague's statement at the Blackpool conference that he supports tuition fees?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am a bit confused about Tory policy; can Mr Davidson clarify it, in view of Mr Hague's statement at the Blackpool conference that he supports tuition fees?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C709193", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Davidson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 111.0, "ContributionID": 709193, "EditedText": "I am sorry, but we are in a Scottish Parliament to which at least three of the parties—if not some of the smaller parties as well—were elected on the basis that tuition fees would be abolished in Scotland. Has Mr Raffan forgotten that? He has to realise that this is Scotland, not Westminster.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry, but we are in a Scottish Parliament to which at least three of the parties—if not some of the smaller parties as well—were elected on the basis that tuition fees would be abolished in Scotland. Has Mr Raffan forgotten that? He has to realise that this is Scotland, not Westminster.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C709194", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 113.0, "ContributionID": 709194, "EditedText": "Will Mr Davidson confirm that he is disowning his leader?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr Davidson confirm that he is disowning his leader?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709195", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 115.0, "ContributionID": 709195, "EditedText": "Just a minute, Mr Raffan. Mr Davidson, I take it that you are not giving way.", "EditedTextHTML": "Just a minute, Mr Raffan. Mr Davidson, I take it that you are not giving way.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C709196", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Davidson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 117.0, "ContributionID": 709196, "EditedText": "I am not giving way. He has had his chance.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am not giving way. He has had his chance.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C709200", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Davidson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 125.0, "ContributionID": 709200, "EditedText": "I will certainly give way to a lady.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will certainly give way to a lady.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2044E178P334C709209", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jenkins, Ian", "ID": 2044, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ian Jenkins", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ian Jenkins (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 143.0, "ContributionID": 709209, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2044E178P334C709211", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jenkins, Ian", "ID": 2044, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ian Jenkins", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ian Jenkins: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 147.0, "ContributionID": 709211, "EditedText": "I wanted—", "EditedTextHTML": "I wanted—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C709214", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Davidson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 153.0, "ContributionID": 709214, "EditedText": "Anything spent on education is a good thing. The children of Scotland are our future. However, we have to look at the fine print of how the money is spent. We need to scrutinise and not just spend. The minister talked about best value—he said that just now if Mr Jenkins had been listening. He said that we need to look very carefully at using and targeting existing funds better. If that extra £80 million produces a real benefit to our children, obviously we will support that spending. We have yet to see the proof of the pudding. I hope that that answers the question. I must say one or two things to my colleague Mr Andrew Wilson. Last week, he was very gracious in the chamber and wished for my good health. I thank him for that. Unfortunately, I cannot agree with some of the other things that he said. However, I agree with one thing, and I thank him most sincerely for this on behalf of my party—he is a very good advocate for the wonderful job that my party has done in government in the past, particularly in Westminster. Mr Wilson and his colleagues have a difficulty— they seem to think that the only way to solve any problem in Scotland is by the use of public funds. On numerous occasions when his colleagues have been in committees or in meetings with me, they have raised that issue. This Parliament should be seeking not only to get the best out of public funds, but to see how best we can harness the good that the private sector can bring to partnership working, because without a strong private sector, Scotland is doomed to be a second-rate nation. It has never been that in the past because of the joint role of the public and private sectors in partnership. I hope that the Scottish National party takes that lesson on board. The last comment I want to make to Mr Wilson is that I am extremely worried. Having told us how wonderful we were in the past, he now accuses us of trying to pass policy across to Labour. I hope that when the time comes for us to take Labour's place on the benches over there, we will make a far better job of it than the Labour party has made of it so far.", "EditedTextHTML": "Anything spent on education is a good thing. The children of Scotland are our future. However, we have to look at the fine print of how the money is spent. We need to scrutinise and not just spend. The minister talked about best value—he said that just now if Mr Jenkins had been listening. He said that we need to look very carefully at using and targeting existing funds better. If that extra £80 million produces a real benefit to our children, obviously we will support that spending. We have yet to see the proof of the pudding. I hope that that answers the question.

I must say one or two things to my colleague Mr Andrew Wilson. Last week, he was very gracious in the chamber and wished for my good health. I thank him for that. Unfortunately, I cannot agree with some of the other things that he said. However, I agree with one thing, and I thank him most sincerely for this on behalf of my party—he is a very good advocate for the wonderful job that my party has done in government in the past, particularly in Westminster.

Mr Wilson and his colleagues have a difficulty— they seem to think that the only way to solve any problem in Scotland is by the use of public funds. On numerous occasions when his colleagues have been in committees or in meetings with me, they have raised that issue. This Parliament should be seeking not only to get the best out of public funds, but to see how best we can harness the good that the private sector can bring to partnership working, because without a strong private sector, Scotland is doomed to be a second-rate nation. It has never been that in the past because of the joint role of the public and

private sectors in partnership. I hope that the Scottish National party takes that lesson on board.

The last comment I want to make to Mr Wilson is that I am extremely worried. Having told us how wonderful we were in the past, he now accuses us of trying to pass policy across to Labour. I hope that when the time comes for us to take Labour's place on the benches over there, we will make a far better job of it than the Labour party has made of it so far.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709215", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 155.0, "ContributionID": 709215, "EditedText": "Unusually, all the front benchers have set an excellent example on timekeeping today. If everyone on the back benches keeps their speeches to four minutes, everyone who has asked to speak can be called. I call Keith Raffan.", "EditedTextHTML": "Unusually, all the front benchers have set an excellent example on timekeeping today. If everyone on the back benches keeps their speeches to four minutes, everyone who has asked to speak can be called. I call Keith Raffan.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C709222", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 171.0, "ContributionID": 709222, "EditedText": "Mike Watson has just appeared on the \"Holyrood\" television programme, saying that there is no new money. The Minister for Finance said that there is new money. Will Mike Watson tell us who is right?", "EditedTextHTML": "Mike Watson has just appeared on the \"Holyrood\" television programme, saying that there is no new money. The Minister for Finance said that there is new money. Will Mike Watson tell us who is right?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2142E142P230C709223", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Watson, Mike", "ID": 2142, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Cathcart" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Watson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mike Watson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 173.0, "ContributionID": 709223, "EditedText": "I understand that Mr Wilson is one of Scotland's 50 most eligible bachelors. Frankly, I am not sure what he is eligible for. He is certainly not eligible for election to the SNP's national executive, as he has just failed to achieve that. That might be because he is completely out of line with that party, which wants to tax every family in Scotland. Mr Wilson does not agree with that. Andrew and I are talking about two different things. I do not know how he managed to hear what was said in my interview for the \"Holyrood\" programme, as I was being interviewed while he was speaking in the chamber. However, I said that there is no new money, and that the issue is the reallocation of resources for this year. Some money has been freed up in the way that Jack McConnell suggested, for Scottish Homes and NHS trusts, but the new money will be delivered over the three years of the comprehensive spending review. This is the partnership agreement in practice. We outlined what the partnership agreement would do, then the programme for Scotland took that one step further and described how those things would be funded.", "EditedTextHTML": "I understand that Mr Wilson is one of Scotland's 50 most eligible bachelors. Frankly, I am not sure what he is eligible for. He is certainly not eligible for election to the SNP's national executive, as he has just failed to achieve that. That might be because he is completely out of line with that party, which wants to tax every family in Scotland. Mr Wilson does not agree with that.

Andrew and I are talking about two different things. I do not know how he managed to hear what was said in my interview for the \"Holyrood\" programme, as I was being interviewed while he was speaking in the chamber. However, I said that there is no new money, and that the issue is the reallocation of resources for this year. Some money has been freed up in the way that Jack McConnell suggested, for Scottish Homes and NHS trusts, but the new money will be delivered over the three years of the comprehensive spending review. This is the partnership agreement in practice. We outlined what the partnership agreement would do, then the programme for Scotland took that one step further and described how those things would be funded.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C709219", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Davidson rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 164.0, "ContributionID": 709219, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2142E142P230C709221", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Watson, Mike", "ID": 2142, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Cathcart" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Watson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mike Watson (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 169.0, "ContributionID": 709221, "EditedText": "Mr Raffan in full flight is a difficult person to deflect, but he is always deflected eventually. However, his approach is certainly preferable to that of Andrew Wilson, who I thought was rather churlish in his response on behalf of the Scottish National party, and undeservedly so. This is a big step forward in the way in which Scottish public finances are managed. Mr Wilson, who is a member of both the Audit Committee and the Finance Committee, knows in great detail that this is a new way of managing public finance, and he should have welcomed it. Instead, we are mired in questions of how much something is worth, where the new money is and what is in Gordon Brown's war chest. That is not the issue today, and the people of Scotland will not welcome such an approach as this Parliament begins to discuss financial matters seriously for the first time. I certainly do not. I have heard SNP members comment that it is the same money. The issue is the reallocation of resources, for the most part—nothing other than that has been claimed, in terms of the three-year comprehensive spending review.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Raffan in full flight is a difficult person to deflect, but he is always deflected eventually. However, his approach is certainly preferable to that of Andrew Wilson, who I thought was rather churlish in his response on behalf of the Scottish National party, and undeservedly so.

This is a big step forward in the way in which Scottish public finances are managed. Mr Wilson, who is a member of both the Audit Committee and the Finance Committee, knows in great detail that this is a new way of managing public finance, and he should have welcomed it. Instead, we are mired in questions of how much something is worth, where the new money is and what is in Gordon Brown's war chest. That is not the issue today, and the people of Scotland will not welcome such an approach as this Parliament begins to discuss financial matters seriously for the first time. I certainly do not.

I have heard SNP members comment that it is the same money. The issue is the reallocation of resources, for the most part—nothing other than that has been claimed, in terms of the three-year comprehensive spending review.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2142E142P230C709225", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Watson, Mike", "ID": 2142, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Cathcart" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Watson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mike Watson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 177.0, "ContributionID": 709225, "EditedText": "I will give way in a moment. There must be a great deal to be welcomed, but I am sure that that welcome will not come in this intervention.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will give way in a moment. There must be a great deal to be welcomed, but I am sure that that welcome will not come in this intervention.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1985E207P501C709226", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hamilton, Mr Duncan", "ID": 1985, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Hamilton: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 179.0, "ContributionID": 709226, "EditedText": "Let us be clear about this. Perhaps Andrew Wilson was in the chamber, but I was not 10 cm from Mike Watson when he was interviewed. What he said was nothing like what he has just come out with. He told us categorically that there was no new money. It was put to him in the interview that Mr McConnell had told us that this was new money. There is a rift which he is trying to heal over, but cannot. Please tell us who is right: is it the Minister for Finance or is it the convener of the Finance Committee?", "EditedTextHTML": "Let us be clear about this. Perhaps Andrew Wilson was in the chamber, but I was not 10 cm from Mike Watson when he was interviewed. What he said was nothing like what he has just come out with. He told us categorically that there was no new money. It was put to him in the interview that Mr McConnell had told us that this was new money. There is a rift which he is trying to heal over, but cannot. Please tell us who is right: is it the Minister for Finance or is it the convener of the Finance Committee?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2123E103P242C709229", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Chisholm, Malcolm", "ID": 2123, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh North and Leith" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Malcolm Chisholm", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Malcolm Chisholm rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 186.0, "ContributionID": 709229, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C709240", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon (Argyll and Bute) (LD) rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 210.0, "ContributionID": 709240, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C709245", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 220.0, "ContributionID": 709245, "EditedText": "If we look back at the sad years from 1914 to 1918 and at the sad happenings from 1939 to 1945, I have to say that the great lady has perhaps got something going for her. Mr Raffan, who was quite happy to intervene but was not prepared to give way, accused the Conservatives of making mistakes with Black Wednesday. However, the biggest mistake that we ever made was joining the exchange rate mechanism.", "EditedTextHTML": "If we look back at the sad years from 1914 to 1918 and at the sad happenings from 1939 to 1945, I have to say that the great lady has perhaps got something going for her.

Mr Raffan, who was quite happy to intervene but was not prepared to give way, accused the Conservatives of making mistakes with Black Wednesday. However, the biggest mistake that we ever made was joining the exchange rate mechanism.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C709253", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 236.0, "ContributionID": 709253, "EditedText": "That represents a 15 per cent cut in real terms in expenditure on justice issues. Jack McConnell spoke of support for victims of crime and witnesses. Once again, it seems to me that that will not increase at all. We do not even have a steady hold in expenditure; there is a reduction in support for victims of crime. Mr McConnell indicated disagreement.", "EditedTextHTML": "That represents a 15 per cent cut in real terms in expenditure on justice issues.

Jack McConnell spoke of support for victims of crime and witnesses. Once again, it seems to me that that will not increase at all. We do not even have a steady hold in expenditure; there is a reduction in support for victims of crime.

Mr McConnell indicated disagreement.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1811E172P455C709259", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ullrich, Kay", "ID": 1811, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kay Ullrich", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Kay Ullrich (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 250.0, "ContributionID": 709259, "EditedText": "Let us clear away the smoke and the mirrors so that we can see the reality behind the claims of big spending on health and community care. Over the next three years, health spending in Scotland will increase by an average of 3.5 per cent, compared to an increase of 4.3 per cent south of the border. That is a loss of £410 million to the Scottish health service. Does that mean that the people of Scotland are getting radically healthier and therefore do not require as much to be spent on health care? Unfortunately, the evidence suggests otherwise. In any category I can mention—perinatal mortality rates, deaths from cancer, heart disease, strokes—the mortality rate in Scotland is higher than in England and Wales. However, new Labour intends to spend less on health care in Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "Let us clear away the smoke and the mirrors so that we can see the reality behind the claims of big spending on health and community care. Over the next three years, health spending in Scotland will increase by an average of 3.5 per cent, compared to an increase of 4.3 per cent south of the border. That is a loss of £410 million to the Scottish health service. Does that mean that the people of Scotland are getting radically healthier and therefore do not require as much to be spent on health care? Unfortunately, the evidence suggests otherwise.

In any category I can mention—perinatal mortality rates, deaths from cancer, heart disease, strokes—the mortality rate in Scotland is higher than in England and Wales. However, new Labour intends to spend less on health care in Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1931E120P189C709265", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Muldoon, Bristow", "ID": 1931, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Livingston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bristow Muldoon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bristow Muldoon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 262.0, "ContributionID": 709265, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C709269", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 271.0, "ContributionID": 709269, "EditedText": "She is tough on crime.", "EditedTextHTML": "She is tough on crime.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C709270", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 273.0, "ContributionID": 709270, "EditedText": "Absolutely.I welcome the £17 million for vaccination, but I am concerned that there are no meningitis C vaccinations in Scotland. I am sure that most members who have held surgeries will have been visited by young students who say that they must get a vaccination before they go to university. Students are vulnerable, as there were fatalities last year. Although I welcome the £17 million, I would welcome more a supply of vaccinations, because students must have a period of time in which to build up immunity.", "EditedTextHTML": "Absolutely.

I welcome the £17 million for vaccination, but I am concerned that there are no meningitis C vaccinations in Scotland. I am sure that most members who have held surgeries will have been visited by young students who say that they must get a vaccination before they go to university. Students are vulnerable, as there were fatalities last year. Although I welcome the £17 million, I would welcome more a supply of vaccinations, because students must have a period of time in which to build up immunity.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2033E106P139C709271", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gray, Iain", "ID": 2033, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Pentlands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Iain Gray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Iain Gray: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 275.0, "ContributionID": 709271, "EditedText": "Is Mary Scanlon clear about the fact that the additional money relates to the new vaccine, which is not yet available or in production? The supply problems have been with the older vaccine, and those problems have been resolved. In terms of the money, we are talking about two different vaccinations.", "EditedTextHTML": "Is Mary Scanlon clear about the fact that the additional money relates to the new vaccine, which is not yet available or in production? The supply problems have been with the older vaccine, and those problems have been resolved. In terms of the money, we are talking about two different vaccinations.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C709272", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 277.0, "ContributionID": 709272, "EditedText": "I am talking about two constituents who came to a surgery in Wick. Their sons were going to Imperial College, London. Last week, they could not get the vaccine in Wick—it was not available. I want to be positive, Iain, and I welcome the fact that you are addressing the matter.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am talking about two constituents who came to a surgery in Wick. Their sons were going to Imperial College, London. Last week, they could not get the vaccine in Wick—it was not available. I want to be positive, Iain, and I welcome the fact that you are addressing the matter.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C709273", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 279.0, "ContributionID": 709273, "EditedText": "Can you wind up, please.", "EditedTextHTML": "Can you wind up, please.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C709275", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 283.0, "ContributionID": 709275, "EditedText": "You will have to wind up.", "EditedTextHTML": "You will have to wind up.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C709278", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 290.0, "ContributionID": 709278, "EditedText": "Yes.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1892E34P73C709282", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Fergusson, Alex", "ID": 1892, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Fergusson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Fergusson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 298.0, "ContributionID": 709282, "EditedText": "I congratulate Mr Kerr for giving way, if that makes him feel happier. If the Labour Government is so tough on the causes of crime, perhaps he could explain why crime figures are increasing in general.", "EditedTextHTML": "I congratulate Mr Kerr for giving way, if that makes him feel happier.

If the Labour Government is so tough on the causes of crime, perhaps he could explain why crime figures are increasing in general.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5608267+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C709287", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 310.0, "ContributionID": 709287, "EditedText": "Thank you.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2223E203P342C709292", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scott, Tavish", "ID": 2223, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Shetland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tavish Scott", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tavish Scott: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 321.0, "ContributionID": 709292, "EditedText": "Mr Swinney is talking about a Government in which I was not involved. I am interested in what is happening now. I want the representations that the Parliament makes on particular issues to be taken forward in the most active way possible. That is what I am trying to allude to and tease out today. While the Parliament creates an opportunity to be accountable over finances, in this case it is, to some extent, not matched by any accountability over that aspect of our democratic life. It should be, and I look forward to finding ways in which that can be taken forward.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Swinney is talking about a Government in which I was not involved. I am

interested in what is happening now. I want the representations that the Parliament makes on particular issues to be taken forward in the most active way possible. That is what I am trying to allude to and tease out today. While the Parliament creates an opportunity to be accountable over finances, in this case it is, to some extent, not matched by any accountability over that aspect of our democratic life. It should be, and I look forward to finding ways in which that can be taken forward.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C709296", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 330.0, "ContributionID": 709296, "EditedText": "Dr Simpson has made a criticism of the comparison between Scotland and the UK. I specifically made comparisons between the UK and Europe. Does he question those comparisons?", "EditedTextHTML": "Dr Simpson has made a criticism of the comparison between Scotland and the UK. I specifically made comparisons between the UK and Europe. Does he question those comparisons?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C709301", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon (Argyll and Bute) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 342.0, "ContributionID": 709301, "EditedText": "As usual, Kenny shows tremendous vision but gives no indication of how he means to pay for all his proposals—that is typical of the SNP. It was interesting to hear David Davidson say what a wonderful legacy Jack McConnell, the Minister for Finance, had inherited.", "EditedTextHTML": "As usual, Kenny shows tremendous vision but gives no indication of how he means to pay for all his proposals—that is typical of the SNP.

It was interesting to hear David Davidson say what a wonderful legacy Jack McConnell, the

Minister for Finance, had inherited.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C709303", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 346.0, "ContributionID": 709303, "EditedText": "I think that it was David who claimed that the Conservatives had left that legacy. I have had a look at the figures. What a wonderful legacy, indeed: £15.9 billion was spent in Scotland in 1994-95; that figure fell to £15.147 billion by 1997-98. I welcome the announcement by the Minister for Finance. There is new money and new spending—£80 million is to be spent on education, which is important because it represents a big commitment to our schools, to our children and to our children's future. Liberal Democrat policies and priorities have been turned into Government policy—I am sure that the unholy alliance in the chamber will get little opportunity to do the same. I will put into context what this extra money represents at grassroots level. In my constituency of Argyll and Bute, where I live, we face the prospect of the closure of small rural schools, despite a 4.6 per cent increase in the budget for this year. The extra money that will come through next year should allow the council to re-examine that proposal. I hope that it will decide to hold off closure and to support the small rural schools.", "EditedTextHTML": "I think that it was David who claimed that the Conservatives had left that legacy. I have had a look at the figures. What a wonderful legacy, indeed: £15.9 billion was spent in Scotland in 1994-95; that figure fell to £15.147 billion by 1997-98.

I welcome the announcement by the Minister for Finance. There is new money and new spending—£80 million is to be spent on education, which is important because it represents a big commitment to our schools, to our children and to our children's future. Liberal Democrat policies and priorities have been turned into Government policy—I am sure that the unholy alliance in the chamber will get little opportunity to do the same.

I will put into context what this extra money represents at grassroots level. In my constituency of Argyll and Bute, where I live, we face the prospect of the closure of small rural schools, despite a 4.6 per cent increase in the budget for this year. The extra money that will come through next year should allow the council to re-examine that proposal. I hope that it will decide to hold off closure and to support the small rural schools.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C709305", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 350.0, "ContributionID": 709305, "EditedText": "As Nicola Sturgeon will know, the partnership agreement included a £600 million commitment for capital projects. Moreover, £80 million is a lot more than the SNP will deliver over the four years of this Parliament. The extra money is coming through as a result of the partnership agreement, on top of the comprehensive spending review increases in expenditure over the three-year period. As my colleague Keith Raffan said, we hope to see more money flowing through in the second comprehensive spending review. It is particularly important to remember that the priorities that were set out in the partnership for government programme are the priorities that the new money will address. There will be investment in public services—investment in our future and in better health and education. I also welcome the extra £29 million that has been made available to help to address student hardship—that is a first step in tackling student hardship while we await the outcome of the Cubie inquiry. It will be interesting to see what will happen after Cubie, now that William Hague announced that the Tory party would do a U-turn on tuition fees. That is unusual—is it a change in policy of which the Scottish Conservatives have failed to inform the chamber?", "EditedTextHTML": "As Nicola Sturgeon will know, the partnership agreement included a £600 million commitment for capital projects. Moreover, £80 million is a lot more than the SNP will deliver over the four years of this Parliament.

The extra money is coming through as a result of the partnership agreement, on top of the comprehensive spending review increases in expenditure over the three-year period. As my colleague Keith Raffan said, we hope to see more money flowing through in the second comprehensive spending review. It is particularly important to remember that the priorities that were set out in the partnership for government programme are the priorities that the new money will address. There will be investment in public services—investment in our future and in better health and education.

I also welcome the extra £29 million that has been made available to help to address student hardship—that is a first step in tackling student hardship while we await the outcome of the Cubie inquiry. It will be interesting to see what will happen after Cubie, now that William Hague announced that the Tory party would do a U-turn on tuition fees. That is unusual—is it a change in policy of which the Scottish Conservatives have failed to inform the chamber?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C709306", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Davidson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 352.0, "ContributionID": 709306, "EditedText": "I thank Mr Lyon for giving way. If he had been present in the chamber for the whole debate, he might have heard my response to his colleague Mr Raffan on that point.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank Mr Lyon for giving way. If he had been present in the chamber for the whole debate, he might have heard my response to his colleague Mr Raffan on that point.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C709308", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Annabel Goldie (West of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 357.0, "ContributionID": 709308, "EditedText": "Mr McConnell gave a very attractive performance. He has the jaunty, Jack-the-lad air that could entice a lady to follow him into a bar, but it will no doubt be a source of great relief to him that I shall not be that lady—I would end up paying for the drinks. As an expenditure statement, this is a Chinese puzzle; the more one looks at it, the less one sees. In my question, I mentioned the minister's key strategic priorities. The statement includes a worthy list of areas on which the minister proposes to spend money and many of the contributors to the debate have referred to that list. Under the heading of education, however, the list makes no acknowledgement of the teachers' plight and no recognition that we have a serious situation—an impasse—in which the teachers are being promised no comfort until the outcome of an inquiry in May 2000. If Labour, in its first year of spending, managed to cut spending on education by £219 million, does not that make the £80 million look paltry in terms of the educational sphere's current needs? On justice, what about more, instead of fewer, police? What about fewer cuts to funding—or more money—for Victim Support? I asked the minister about enterprise and lifelong learning. Reference is made to increased access and doubling assistance to mature students on low incomes, but it is difficult to reconcile that with the tuition fees impasse. There is complete silence on help for enterprise. Mr MacAskill eloquently described the shortcomings of our transport system. If ours is an unholy alliance, Mr MacAskill, I am proud to share it with you. It is the duty of Opposition to point out such things. In Scotland, we have an overdue improvement programme for killer roads and a tired and inadequate roads infrastructure that desperately needs investment. The statement is good on communities and no doubt encouraging for those who will benefit from that, but what cheer is there for people who have the misfortune to live in the country? What about fuel taxes, the neglect of our rural communities and the difficulties that face them? Under the subject of rural affairs, there is no comfort for our agriculture industry. That is very pertinent to those members who today met the representatives from the pig industry; we heard an acute plea from an industry that is on the point of collapse. What succour is there for the pig industry? I see gaping and disturbing gaps in the statement. On health, what about reducing waiting lists and waiting times? What about increasing the number of nurses? Such things matter to the people of Scotland. There is no doubt that the minister's statement is ambitious, nor is there any doubt that it is carefully crafted. There is no doubt whatever that the money has been recycled so much that the food processor is in danger of exploding as it tries to produce yet another dish from the minister's kitchen. At Westminster, there is a roll-forward of surpluses that are not being disbursed; that practice is spreading to this Parliament. That is not welcome news. A war chest is being built up and is becoming immoral in its immensity. At the current rate, it is costing £1,500 for every taxpayer in Scotland. We are entitled to ask whether that money could be distributed in many more advantageous ways than being kept to hone the weapons of election combat. In short, the expenditure statement might bring comfort to some people, but it will bring none at all to most.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr McConnell gave a very attractive performance. He has the jaunty, Jack-the-lad air that could entice a lady to follow him into a bar, but it will no doubt be a source of great relief to him that I shall not be that lady—I would end up paying for the drinks.

As an expenditure statement, this is a Chinese puzzle; the more one looks at it, the less one sees. In my question, I mentioned the minister's key strategic priorities. The statement includes a worthy list of areas on which the minister proposes to spend money and many of the contributors to the debate have referred to that list. Under the heading of education, however, the list makes no acknowledgement of the teachers' plight and no recognition that we have a serious situation—an impasse—in which the teachers are being promised no comfort until the outcome of an inquiry in May 2000. If Labour, in its first year of spending, managed to cut spending on education by £219 million, does not that make the £80 million look paltry in terms of the educational sphere's current needs?

On justice, what about more, instead of fewer, police? What about fewer cuts to funding—or more money—for Victim Support? I asked the minister about enterprise and lifelong learning. Reference is made to increased access and doubling assistance to mature students on low incomes, but it is difficult to reconcile that with the tuition fees impasse. There is complete silence on help for enterprise.

Mr MacAskill eloquently described the shortcomings of our transport system. If ours is an unholy alliance, Mr MacAskill, I am proud to share

it with you. It is the duty of Opposition to point out such things. In Scotland, we have an overdue improvement programme for killer roads and a tired and inadequate roads infrastructure that desperately needs investment.

The statement is good on communities and no doubt encouraging for those who will benefit from that, but what cheer is there for people who have the misfortune to live in the country? What about fuel taxes, the neglect of our rural communities and the difficulties that face them?

Under the subject of rural affairs, there is no comfort for our agriculture industry. That is very pertinent to those members who today met the representatives from the pig industry; we heard an acute plea from an industry that is on the point of collapse. What succour is there for the pig industry?

I see gaping and disturbing gaps in the statement. On health, what about reducing waiting lists and waiting times? What about increasing the number of nurses? Such things matter to the people of Scotland.

There is no doubt that the minister's statement is ambitious, nor is there any doubt that it is carefully crafted. There is no doubt whatever that the money has been recycled so much that the food processor is in danger of exploding as it tries to produce yet another dish from the minister's kitchen.

At Westminster, there is a roll-forward of surpluses that are not being disbursed; that practice is spreading to this Parliament. That is not welcome news. A war chest is being built up and is becoming immoral in its immensity. At the current rate, it is costing £1,500 for every taxpayer in Scotland. We are entitled to ask whether that money could be distributed in many more advantageous ways than being kept to hone the weapons of election combat.

In short, the expenditure statement might bring comfort to some people, but it will bring none at all to most.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2123E103P242C709310", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Chisholm, Malcolm", "ID": 2123, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh North and Leith" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Malcolm Chisholm", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Malcolm Chisholm: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 362.0, "ContributionID": 709310, "EditedText": "Surely the fact is that there is a higher base now. The reality is that spending in Scotland is at a higher profile during that three- year period than it has been for decades.", "EditedTextHTML": "Surely the fact is that there is a higher base now. The reality is that spending in Scotland is at a higher profile during that three- year period than it has been for decades.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C709323", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 389.0, "ContributionID": 709323, "EditedText": "I will finish by summing up what has been a debate between two sides. A number of people in this Parliament were elected to do a job. They believed in devolution when they stood for election, they believed in devolution after they were elected, and they joined together in a partnership to make devolution work better for all the people of Scotland. There are two parties in the chamber who do not believe in devolution. Their statements today have confirmed that. They are more interested in complaining about decisions that are made in other Houses of Parliament elsewhere, or comparing figures from past years, choosing the years to suit them so that they can make the same old moans and groans. Some of us are trying to make the settlement work. We are succeeding. Today's statement introduces new money and the proper management of money so that it can be used on the priorities of the people of Scotland. It allocates resources based on needs. It may be a first financial statement for Scotland, but it will not be the last, and it will be one that makes a genuine difference to the quality of life of families and communities in every part of rural and urban Scotland. It will be a statement that this partnership can be proud of in three years' time.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will finish by summing up what has been a debate between two sides. A number of people in this Parliament were elected to do a job. They believed in devolution when they stood for election, they believed in devolution after they were elected, and they joined together in a partnership to make devolution work better for all the people of Scotland. There are two parties in the chamber who do not believe in devolution. Their statements today have confirmed that. They are more interested in complaining about decisions that are made in other Houses of Parliament elsewhere, or comparing figures from past years, choosing the years to suit them so that they can make the same old moans and groans.

Some of us are trying to make the settlement work. We are succeeding. Today's statement introduces new money and the proper management of money so that it can be used on the priorities of the people of Scotland. It allocates resources based on needs. It may be a first financial statement for Scotland, but it will not be the last, and it will be one that makes a genuine difference to the quality of life of families and communities in every part of rural and urban Scotland. It will be a statement that this partnership can be proud of in three years' time.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709327", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 397.0, "ContributionID": 709327, "EditedText": "I have to tell thechamber that the latest report is that 28 people are confirmed dead and approximately 40 are unaccounted for. It has been a major tragedy. I think it right to do as Miss Goldie suggests on behalf of the whole Parliament, and I shall do that.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have to tell the

chamber that the latest report is that 28 people are confirmed dead and approximately 40 are unaccounted for. It has been a major tragedy. I think it right to do as Miss Goldie suggests on behalf of the whole Parliament, and I shall do that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709329", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Breast Cancer", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26911, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 399.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 399.0, "ID": 26911, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 402.0, "ContributionID": 709329, "EditedText": "Motion debated,", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion debated,

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709330", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Breast Cancer", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26911, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 399.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 399.0, "ID": 26911, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 403.0, "ContributionID": 709330, "EditedText": "That the Parliament notes that breast cancer is the most commonly occurring cancer amongst women in Scotland; notes that early detection has saved many lives; and supports the work of Breakthrough Breast Cancer and the establishment of an all-party group on breast cancer, and encourages all MSPs to join it.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament notes that breast cancer is the most commonly occurring cancer amongst women in Scotland; notes that early detection has saved many lives; and supports the work of Breakthrough Breast Cancer and the establishment of an all-party group on breast cancer, and encourages all MSPs to join it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1826E199P351C709334", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Breast Cancer", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26911, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 399.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 399.0, "ID": 26911, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Smith, Margaret", "ID": 1826, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Smith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Margaret Smith (Edinburgh West) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 414.0, "ContributionID": 709334, "EditedText": "I welcome the opportunity, as previous speakers have, to highlight the impact of breast cancer on the health of Scottish women. It impacts not only on women who suffer from the disease, but on their partners, children, families and friends. I know that we will all have been touched by it at some point in our own lives. Cancer is a leading priority for the national health service in Scotland and it figures in our Executive programme. That is quite right; cancer should be a leading priority and at the forefront of the health agenda. This coming year, 3,000 Scottish women will be diagnosed with breast cancer. I have said before, and I will say again, that those women are mothers, sisters and grandmothers—real people living real lives. At the moment, every woman between 50 and 65 is routinely called for breast screening. Beyond that age—and we know that breast cancer gets worse with age—women must request screening. I hope that the minister will look at that again and see whether it is possible to expand the screening programme. We all know that early detection is critical.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the opportunity, as previous speakers have, to highlight the impact of breast cancer on the health of Scottish women. It impacts not only on women who suffer from the disease, but on their partners, children, families and friends. I know that we will all have been touched by it at some point in our own lives.

Cancer is a leading priority for the national health service in Scotland and it figures in our Executive programme. That is quite right; cancer should be a leading priority and at the forefront of the health agenda. This coming year, 3,000 Scottish women will be diagnosed with breast cancer. I have said before, and I will say again, that those women are mothers, sisters and grandmothers—real people living real lives.

At the moment, every woman between 50 and 65 is routinely called for breast screening. Beyond that age—and we know that breast cancer gets worse with age—women must request screening. I hope that the minister will look at that again and see whether it is possible to expand the screening programme. We all know that early detection is critical.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C709335", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Breast Cancer", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26911, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 399.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 399.0, "ID": 26911, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Richard Simpson (Ochil) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 416.0, "ContributionID": 709335, "EditedText": "I would like to offer a word of caution on the screening issue, which is not straightforward. Mass screening is not necessarily the answer for people over 65—that is why the parameters are set between 50 and 65. We all have a terrific desire to make improvements, but we should be a little cautious about extending screening in either direction without the evidence that doing so would be worth while.", "EditedTextHTML": "I would like to offer a word of caution on the screening issue, which is not straightforward. Mass screening is not necessarily the answer for people over 65—that is why the parameters are set between 50 and 65. We all have a terrific desire to make improvements, but we should be a little cautious about extending screening in either direction

without the evidence that doing so would be worth while.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C709337", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Breast Cancer", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26911, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 399.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 399.0, "ID": 26911, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 421.0, "ContributionID": 709337, "EditedText": "I concur with the points that Irene McGugan made on screening. I fall into the category where I do not get breast screening for several years. When I mentioned that in the past, I was told that I could go to the top of the list. However, I do not wish to do that just because I have made a fuss: I should not have to make a fuss. I will address the point that was made about deprived areas. I was concerned when Professor Graham Watt, a professor of general practice, visited the Health and Community Care Committee recently and pointed out that in deprived areas, patients present themselves later and with bigger lumps. They do not access support groups and, as has been said, do not turn up for screening. I find that alarming. When they access care, of course, there is equality of treatment, but when the cancer is much more progressed, the prognosis is much poorer. Several members have referred to information. The 1960s, 1970s and part of the 1980s were a patient information desert. When a relative had cancer and we had to visit them in hospital, we put on a brave face and pretended that they did not know. That was insulting and wrong. I am concerned that in the 1990s we have entered an era in which, because of developments such as the internet, we have so much information that we have information overload. At times, that can cause confusion and alarm. I welcome the NHS Direct on-line and telephone services, but practitioners have raised concerns with me that that should not be seen as a hurdle to providing important health care. I was pleased to find that so many organisations are involved in research, supporting cancer patients and so on, but the one that greatly impressed me was CancerBACUP, which has a freephone helpline. Many cancer patients listen to what doctors say to them, but because they are under such emotional trauma, they do not hear it. The helpline is staffed by specialist cancer information nurses and is to welcomed in this era of information overload and confusion.", "EditedTextHTML": "

I concur with the points that Irene McGugan made on screening. I fall into the category where I do not get breast screening for several years. When I mentioned that in the past, I was told that I could go to the top of the list. However, I do not wish to do that just because I have made a fuss: I should not have to make a fuss.

I will address the point that was made about deprived areas. I was concerned when Professor Graham Watt, a professor of general practice, visited the Health and Community Care Committee recently and pointed out that in deprived areas, patients present themselves later and with bigger lumps. They do not access support groups and, as has been said, do not turn up for screening. I find that alarming. When they access care, of course, there is equality of treatment, but when the cancer is much more progressed, the prognosis is much poorer.

Several members have referred to information. The 1960s, 1970s and part of the 1980s were a patient information desert. When a relative had cancer and we had to visit them in hospital, we put on a brave face and pretended that they did not know. That was insulting and wrong. I am concerned that in the 1990s we have entered an era in which, because of developments such as the internet, we have so much information that we have information overload. At times, that can cause confusion and alarm.

I welcome the NHS Direct on-line and telephone services, but practitioners have raised concerns with me that that should not be seen as a hurdle to providing important health care.

I was pleased to find that so many organisations are involved in research, supporting cancer patients and so on, but the one that greatly impressed me was CancerBACUP, which has a freephone helpline. Many cancer patients listen to what doctors say to them, but because they are under such emotional trauma, they do not hear it. The helpline is staffed by specialist cancer information nurses and is to welcomed in this era of information overload and confusion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1769E16P282C709340", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Breast Cancer", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26911, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 399.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 399.0, "ID": 26911, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Smith, Elaine", "ID": 1769, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Coatbridge and Chryston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Smith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Elaine Smith (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 430.0, "ContributionID": 709340, "EditedText": "I will keep my speech brief. I welcome the opportunity that Pauline McNeill has given us to raise awareness of breast cancer. Given that breast cancer is the most common type of cancer among women in Scotland, it is extremely important that the protection and treatment on offer are as effective as possible. I want to raise one issue in particular. In recent months, I have heard from breast cancer sufferers in my constituency, who, although generally happy with their treatment, have raised the issue of inconsistencies in prescribing practices by GPs in respect of repeat prescriptions. The drug tamoxifen is well established in treating breast cancer and is prescribed for up to five years. In addition, trials are in progress, in which tamoxifen is given to women at high risk, in order to assess the preventive qualities of the drug. The success of that project depends on more women coming forward to take part. Given the potential of the drug to reduce the incidence of breast cancer and the possibility that it might also kill cancer cells directly, it is difficult to understand the variations in the repeat prescription periods. Some GPs prescribe for three to six months, yet others will provide repeat prescriptions for only one month at a time. That increases the cost and inconvenience to women who need the drug to save their lives. In its September 1999 report, \"Supporting Prescribing in General Practice\", the Accounts Commission for Scotland highlights variations in prescribing practices and calls for better management of repeat prescriptions. Better management would be to ensure uniformity in the prescription of tamoxifen, and to issue guidelines recommending that the care of breast cancer sufferers come before cost savings in prescribing. I urge members to take whatever opportunities are available during Breast Cancer Awareness Month—this month—to ensure that issues related to prevention and treatment are highlighted and addressed.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will keep my speech brief. I welcome the opportunity that Pauline McNeill has given us to raise awareness of breast cancer.

Given that breast cancer is the most common type of cancer among women in Scotland, it is extremely important that the protection and treatment on offer are as effective as possible.

I want to raise one issue in particular. In recent months, I have heard from breast cancer sufferers in my constituency, who, although generally happy with their treatment, have raised the issue of inconsistencies in prescribing practices by GPs in respect of repeat prescriptions. The drug tamoxifen is well established in treating breast cancer and is prescribed for up to five years. In addition, trials are in progress, in which tamoxifen is given to women at high risk, in order to assess

the preventive qualities of the drug. The success of that project depends on more women coming forward to take part.

Given the potential of the drug to reduce the incidence of breast cancer and the possibility that it might also kill cancer cells directly, it is difficult to understand the variations in the repeat prescription periods. Some GPs prescribe for three to six months, yet others will provide repeat prescriptions for only one month at a time. That increases the cost and inconvenience to women who need the drug to save their lives.

In its September 1999 report, \"Supporting Prescribing in General Practice\", the Accounts Commission for Scotland highlights variations in prescribing practices and calls for better management of repeat prescriptions. Better management would be to ensure uniformity in the prescription of tamoxifen, and to issue guidelines recommending that the care of breast cancer sufferers come before cost savings in prescribing.

I urge members to take whatever opportunities are available during Breast Cancer Awareness Month—this month—to ensure that issues related to prevention and treatment are highlighted and addressed.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C709344", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Breast Cancer", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26911, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 399.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 399.0, "ID": 26911, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ms Patricia Ferguson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 441.0, "ContributionID": 709344, "EditedText": "As Christine's contribution was so brief, we can just about squeeze in one last speaker. I call Hugh Henry.", "EditedTextHTML": "As Christine's contribution was so brief, we can just about squeeze in one last speaker. I call Hugh Henry.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C709348", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Breast Cancer", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26911, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 399.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 399.0, "ID": 26911, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 452.0, "ContributionID": 709348, "EditedText": "I have listened with great interest to the debate and will attempt to pick up some of the points that have been raised. The interest and participation that there has been demonstrates the importance of this issue to members, particularly—although by no means exclusively—to women members of the Parliament. As the first ever woman to be Scottish health minister, I am pleased to have the opportunity to add my voice to those of my colleagues here today. I commend Pauline McNeill on bringing this matter to Parliament and commend other members on speaking in the debate. Breast cancer, and the fear of breast cancer, casts a real shadow over the lives of women across Scotland. Many members who have spoken have demonstrated how real that is to all of us in our family experiences. I am aware of what a diagnosis of breast cancer can mean for a woman and her family. I give an assurance that I am determined to ensure that we work hard in the Scottish Executive to reduce the risks, fears and anxiety that breast cancer can cause. It is important that we take a balanced approach to this issue and have as full as possible a discussion of the facts—if members gather together on a cross-party basis to discuss the issue, that is a good opportunity to do so. We must talk about survival as well as suffering. We must celebrate the improvements that have been made in recent years as well as continue to demand further improvements. When we discuss why interventions are sometimes not made, we must be honest about the reasons. I endorse Richard Simpson's point about screening. Decisions may be taken on the basis not of cost, but of clinical effectiveness. By all means let us discuss how we can make improvements, but let us do so in an informed way. It is important to say that, although our focus is on breast cancer, I note the impact that cancer in all its forms has in Scotland. One in three people will suffer from cancer at some time in their lives and one in four people will die because of it. However, in many ways breast cancer is a success story, because it is no longer a death sentence—far from it. As many members have said, we are identifying it earlier, treating it more effectively and, as a result, more Scots women are living longer. Breast cancer, with some 3,000 cases each year, is the most commonly occurring cancer in Scottish women but, over the past 10 years or so, there has been a significant and encouraging improvement in what happens to those women. More women than ever before are surviving breast cancer. Today, three out of four women who are diagnosed with breast cancer are still alive after five years. However, as welcome as that news is, we cannot afford to be complacent. The fight against cancer, including breast cancer, remains a war that we have not yet won, but the tide is turning for women. There are many reasons why women today are surviving breast cancer for longer. Part of the success is down to earlier detection of breast cancer through the national screening programme. I give an assurance that our national cancer screening programmes, for both breast cancer and cervical cancer, are constantly under review in our discussions with expert clinicians on how we can make those programmes more effective. We are also making progress in quicker diagnosis and faster treatment. Nevertheless, there are still about 1,200 deaths each year because of breast cancer, which is 1,200 deaths too many. That is why we must grasp every opportunity to encourage women to attend for breast screening when called. At present, about 70 per cent of women invited will attend. I want that percentage increased. I am pleased that health boards across Scotland are taking initiatives at a local level to encourage women to attend for screening when they are invited to do so. Breast screening services are effective and are getting better. As women, we must all be better at using those services. I take the point that that is particularly important for women in some of our poorer areas. The emphasis that the Executive places on addressing health inequalities and social inclusion is evidence of our determination to reach out to women in all parts of our community and to get those services to them. The problem lies not just in screening. When a woman finds a lump in her breast, or has other breast symptoms causing her concern, she needs to know one thing—does she have cancer or not? We need quicker and better diagnosis to minimise the waiting and worry. In Scotland 22,000 women are referred to breast clinics each year and 19,000 of those referrals will be false alarms. Unfortunately, as we know, approximately 3,000 cases each year will be cancerous; in those cases, speed of diagnosis and treatment are paramount. Huge progress has been made in that area and it is important that we recognise that progress. We should also pay tribute to staff in the national health service for the work that they have done in making that progress. We are tackling the issue on two fronts. First there will be more one-stop clinics. Our programme for government pledges that 80 additional one-stop clinics will be developed by 2002. These new facilities will speed treatment and will reduce waiting times. People with cancer will be among their major beneficiaries. Pauline McNeill said that the best way in which to get a sense of the real issues on the ground is to go and examine them at first hand. Members should do as I was lucky enough to be able to do: they should take the opportunity to go and see one-stop breast clinics in action; they should go and see that women are being diagnosed and treated more quickly than ever. Treatment that might previously have taken weeks or months has been reduced to days. That reduces the waiting and wondering and reduces anxiety. Women are getting treatment more quickly. That is the kind of progress that we are making throughout Scotland. More than 90 per cent of Scottish women live in areas in which one-stop breast clinics have been established. We are also reducing waiting times for women who have cancer. We are committed to speeding up treatment and to reducing waiting times throughout Scotland. I have made detailed announcements on that in recent weeks and I will say more in this chamber in the weeks ahead. We are working with the Scottish Cancer Group and the waiting time support force to identify achievable targets that will bring most benefits to patients in Scotland. We will set targets for taking the improvements forward before the end of this year. Better prevention, more detection and faster treatment will be at the heart of those developments. We are also taking action on research. I stress that the Scottish Executive chief scientist's office always welcomes robust proposals for research and also welcomes collaborative proposals from voluntary organisations as well as from other bodies. We are working together to make a real difference. Some of Maureen Macmillan's points had particular resonance for me. As well as investing in improvement and developing the bricks and mortar of one-stop clinics, we must ensure that we listen to women and that we respond to their concerns. If we are to provide a modern health service that is fit for the 21st century, we must make sure that high-tech services also have a human touch. The points that Maureen and others have made about the human element are as valid as what has been said made about service improvements. We must listen to women and we must respect their dignity, their sensitivities and their concerns throughout their journey through the service, whether during screening, diagnosis or treatment. The Executive is committed to doing that. It is making record investments in the service to reduce waiting times and to listen to patients as never before. We can always do more and I look forward to working with members of all parties and voluntary organisations to ensure that we can do better still for women in Scotland during the years ahead.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have listened with great interest to the debate and will attempt to pick up some of the points that have been raised. The interest and participation that there has been demonstrates the importance of this issue to members, particularly—although by no means exclusively—to women members of the Parliament.

As the first ever woman to be Scottish health minister, I am pleased to have the opportunity to add my voice to those of my colleagues here today. I commend Pauline McNeill on bringing this matter to Parliament and commend other members on speaking in the debate.

Breast cancer, and the fear of breast cancer, casts a real shadow over the lives of women across Scotland. Many members who have spoken have demonstrated how real that is to all of us in our family experiences. I am aware of what a diagnosis of breast cancer can mean for a woman and her family. I give an assurance that I am determined to ensure that we work hard in the Scottish Executive to reduce the risks, fears and anxiety that breast cancer can cause.

It is important that we take a balanced approach to this issue and have as full as possible a discussion of the facts—if members gather together on a cross-party basis to discuss the issue, that is a good opportunity to do so. We must talk about survival as well as suffering. We must celebrate the improvements that have been made in recent years as well as continue to demand further improvements. When we discuss why interventions are sometimes not made, we must be honest about the reasons. I endorse Richard Simpson's point about screening. Decisions may be taken on the basis not of cost, but of clinical effectiveness. By all means let us discuss how we can make improvements, but let us do so in an informed way.

It is important to say that, although our focus is on breast cancer, I note the impact that cancer in all its forms has in Scotland. One in three people will suffer from cancer at some time in their lives and one in four people will die because of it. However, in many ways breast cancer is a success story, because it is no longer a death sentence—far from it. As many members have said, we are identifying it earlier, treating it more effectively and, as a result, more Scots women are living longer.

Breast cancer, with some 3,000 cases each year, is the most commonly occurring cancer in Scottish women but, over the past 10 years or so, there has been a significant and encouraging improvement in what happens to those women. More women than ever before are surviving breast cancer. Today, three out of four women who are diagnosed with breast cancer are still alive after five years. However, as welcome as that news is, we cannot afford to be complacent. The fight against cancer, including breast cancer, remains a war that we have not yet won, but the tide is turning for women.

There are many reasons why women today are surviving breast cancer for longer. Part of the success is down to earlier detection of breast cancer through the national screening programme. I give an assurance that our national cancer screening programmes, for both breast cancer and cervical cancer, are constantly under review in our discussions with expert clinicians on how we can make those programmes more effective.

We are also making progress in quicker diagnosis and faster treatment. Nevertheless, there are still about 1,200 deaths each year because of breast cancer, which is 1,200 deaths too many. That is why we must grasp every opportunity to encourage women to attend for

breast screening when called. At present, about 70 per cent of women invited will attend. I want that percentage increased. I am pleased that health boards across Scotland are taking initiatives at a local level to encourage women to attend for screening when they are invited to do so.

Breast screening services are effective and are getting better. As women, we must all be better at using those services. I take the point that that is particularly important for women in some of our poorer areas. The emphasis that the Executive places on addressing health inequalities and social inclusion is evidence of our determination to reach out to women in all parts of our community and to get those services to them.

The problem lies not just in screening. When a woman finds a lump in her breast, or has other breast symptoms causing her concern, she needs to know one thing—does she have cancer or not? We need quicker and better diagnosis to minimise the waiting and worry.

In Scotland 22,000 women are referred to breast clinics each year and 19,000 of those referrals will be false alarms. Unfortunately, as we know, approximately 3,000 cases each year will be cancerous; in those cases, speed of diagnosis and treatment are paramount. Huge progress has been made in that area and it is important that we recognise that progress. We should also pay tribute to staff in the national health service for the work that they have done in making that progress.

We are tackling the issue on two fronts. First there will be more one-stop clinics. Our programme for government pledges that 80 additional one-stop clinics will be developed by 2002. These new facilities will speed treatment and will reduce waiting times. People with cancer will be among their major beneficiaries.

Pauline McNeill said that the best way in which to get a sense of the real issues on the ground is to go and examine them at first hand. Members should do as I was lucky enough to be able to do: they should take the opportunity to go and see one-stop breast clinics in action; they should go and see that women are being diagnosed and treated more quickly than ever. Treatment that might previously have taken weeks or months has been reduced to days. That reduces the waiting and wondering and reduces anxiety. Women are getting treatment more quickly. That is the kind of progress that we are making throughout Scotland. More than 90 per cent of Scottish women live in areas in which one-stop breast clinics have been established.

We are also reducing waiting times for women who have cancer. We are committed to speeding up treatment and to reducing waiting times throughout Scotland. I have made detailed announcements on that in recent weeks and I will say more in this chamber in the weeks ahead.

We are working with the Scottish Cancer Group and the waiting time support force to identify achievable targets that will bring most benefits to patients in Scotland. We will set targets for taking the improvements forward before the end of this year. Better prevention, more detection and faster treatment will be at the heart of those developments.

We are also taking action on research. I stress that the Scottish Executive chief scientist's office always welcomes robust proposals for research and also welcomes collaborative proposals from voluntary organisations as well as from other bodies. We are working together to make a real difference.

Some of Maureen Macmillan's points had particular resonance for me. As well as investing in improvement and developing the bricks and mortar of one-stop clinics, we must ensure that we listen to women and that we respond to their concerns. If we are to provide a modern health service that is fit for the 21st century, we must make sure that high-tech services also have a human touch.

The points that Maureen and others have made about the human element are as valid as what has been said made about service improvements. We must listen to women and we must respect their dignity, their sensitivities and their concerns throughout their journey through the service, whether during screening, diagnosis or treatment.

The Executive is committed to doing that. It is making record investments in the service to reduce waiting times and to listen to patients as never before. We can always do more and I look forward to working with members of all parties and voluntary organisations to ensure that we can do better still for women in Scotland during the years ahead.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:14.5764498+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C709341", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Breast Cancer", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26911, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 399.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 399.0, "ID": 26911, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fergus Ewing (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 433.0, "ContributionID": 709341, "EditedText": "On Friday, in my constituency surgery in Fort William, I was consulted by a 35year- old woman who is suffering from breast cancer. She is brave woman, not only because of her fight against cancer, but because she has gone public in a campaign in the Highlands to raise awareness of breast cancer and the problems associated with it. She has been supported in that campaign by her Westminster MP, David Stewart. Her campaign, which I take the opportunity to raise today, is that she feels that it is unfair that cancer sufferers have to pay the full prescription charge—assuming that they are not on income support. I was interested to hear Elaine Smith's remarks, which relate to similar issues. The lady is called Carolyn Stewart. I spoke to her this afternoon, to ask whether she had any objections to her name being mentioned. She said that she wanted her name to be mentioned because she wants awareness of the issue to be raised. She has campaigned for two years and she asked me to raise her case today, so that the Minister for Health and Community Care, Susan Deacon, can give her view. Does the minister—like David Stewart—feel that there is a strong case for reviewing the full prescription charge for cancer sufferers? Perhaps, as my constituent believes, there is a strong case for extending the exemption from the prescription charge that applies to diabetics and those who suffer from epilepsy or thyroid problems to all cancer sufferers who are on expensive treatments for long periods. There must be a strong case to review the current practice. I hope that the minister will consider that in her reply to the debate.", "EditedTextHTML": "On Friday, in my constituency surgery in Fort William, I was consulted by a 35year- old woman who is suffering from breast cancer. She is brave woman, not only because of her fight against cancer, but because she has gone public in a campaign in the Highlands to raise awareness of breast cancer and the problems associated with it. She has been supported in that campaign by her Westminster MP, David Stewart. Her campaign, which I take the opportunity to raise today, is that she feels that it is unfair that cancer sufferers have to pay the full prescription charge—assuming that they are not on income support. I was interested to hear Elaine Smith's remarks, which relate to similar issues.

The lady is called Carolyn Stewart. I spoke to her this afternoon, to ask whether she had any objections to her name being mentioned. She said that she wanted her name to be mentioned because she wants awareness of the issue to be raised. She has campaigned for two years and she asked me to raise her case today, so that the Minister for Health and Community Care, Susan Deacon, can give her view.

Does the minister—like David Stewart—feel that there is a strong case for reviewing the full prescription charge for cancer sufferers? Perhaps, as my constituent believes, there is a strong case for extending the exemption from the prescription charge that applies to diabetics and those who suffer from epilepsy or thyroid problems to all cancer sufferers who are on expensive treatments for long periods. There must be a strong case to review the current practice. I hope that the minister will consider that in her reply to the debate.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:00:28.6213377+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1773E197P503C709284", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hyslop, Fiona", "ID": 1773, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona Hyslop", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona Hyslop (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 303.0, "ContributionID": 709284, "EditedText": "To follow Andy Kerr, I would say that housing investment is at an all-time low. There is some good news on housing, in that under current plans there will be an increase in expenditure from £464 million in 1997-98 to £640 million in 2001-02. I welcome the £50 million of recycled money going into the housing budget. I would ask Liberal Democrat members if they have examined where their healthy homes initiative, which was put into the partnership agreement, appears in the minister's statement. I do not think that it does. The bad news is that, over the past decade, housing's share of the Scottish Office budget has declined from 7.2 per cent to 3.1 per cent. That is the context of public service investment that we are addressing. When we examine the figures, there has been a fall in gross public sector investment from £1,195 million in 1992-93 to £604 million in 1997-98. That shows the scale of the problem. Housing association investment fell by 41 per cent from 1995-96 to 1997-98. Local authority investment declined by 45 per cent. That is not a gap in public spending; it is a gaping chasm. We need strong public services and the political will to support strong public services. Why do we need that? It is not just about pounds, shillings and pence; it is about people and their needs. Overcrowding causes family tensions. Families who want to live near each other are scattered to the four winds, because there is no affordable housing locally. Young people are forced to leave their homes in rural areas. Poor public investment leads to the breakdown in the social need to keep communities together. The Government and the Executive talk about social inclusion—good housing is part of that. One in four people live in damp houses and there are 2,500 excess deaths. In this land of plenty energy, we allow old people to die because we do not invest in healthy homes. It is all in the name of prudence. Remember that prudence can come in many shapes and forms, and at this time Prudence is an old lady who stalks Scotland, lives in a cold house and may end up in hospital because of cold-related illness. When she is assessed for community care, she will be waiting eight months hence to get a place, because the council coffers cannot afford a community care place for her as the public purse prudence does not recognise her namesake. Labour would rather keep the war chest closed than address real need. The Executive proposals fail Scotland because a disproportionate amount of its budget is spent on its obsession with wholesale stock transfer proposals. The policy of transferring 25 per cent of Scotland's housing stock could cost as much as £4.8 billion over the next 40 years. Is that a legacy that we should leave our children? On investment, I will quote the submission of the Glasgow and west of Scotland forum of housing associations to the housing green paper. It put it better than I could: \"Affordable good quality social housing requires significant amounts of public subsidy. Extending the role of the private sector without increasing public expenditure input is a recipe for either spiralling rents or inadequate maintenance or both.\" The investment strategy proposed in the financial proposals of the Scottish Executive will deliver precisely that. Then there is Barnett. Remember the Barnett squeeze as it will have significant effects on housing budgets. The Scottish Executive, tied to the UK tax-cutting obsession, restricts borrowing consents of local authorities that retain their housing stock. The consequence will be increased rent, which will damage social inclusion strategies and increase benefit dependency. In conclusion, the Executive must realise that that if it is to deliver its stated aims, adequate levels of public subsidy must be retained, as must realistic levels of public investment. On its own, private finance will never meet public need adequately. Labour's Tory policy is delivering poorer public services and higher finances as a result of private finance. What Scotland needs is a Government that is prepared to tell the truth about tax and that is prepared to stand up for Scotland's interests. I am sorry to say that what I have heard from the Minister for Finance does not do either.", "EditedTextHTML": "To follow Andy Kerr, I would say that housing investment is at an all-time low.

There is some good news on housing, in that under current plans there will be an increase in expenditure from £464 million in 1997-98 to £640 million in 2001-02. I welcome the £50 million of recycled money going into the housing budget. I would ask Liberal Democrat members if they have examined where their healthy homes initiative, which was put into the partnership agreement, appears in the minister's statement. I do not think that it does.

The bad news is that, over the past decade, housing's share of the Scottish Office budget has declined from 7.2 per cent to 3.1 per cent. That is the context of public service investment that we are addressing. When we examine the figures, there has been a fall in gross public sector investment from £1,195 million in 1992-93 to £604 million in 1997-98. That shows the scale of the problem. Housing association investment fell by 41 per cent from 1995-96 to 1997-98. Local authority investment declined by 45 per cent. That is not a gap in public spending; it is a gaping chasm.

We need strong public services and the political will to support strong public services. Why do we need that? It is not just about pounds, shillings and pence; it is about people and their needs. Overcrowding causes family tensions. Families who want to live near each other are scattered to the four winds, because there is no affordable housing locally. Young people are forced to leave their homes in rural areas. Poor public investment leads to the breakdown in the social need to keep communities together. The Government and the Executive talk about social inclusion—good housing is part of that.

One in four people live in damp houses and there are 2,500 excess deaths. In this land of plenty energy, we allow old people to die because we do not invest in healthy homes. It is all in the name of prudence. Remember that prudence can come in many shapes and forms, and at this time Prudence is an old lady who stalks Scotland, lives in a cold house and may end up in hospital because of cold-related illness. When she is assessed for community care, she will be waiting eight months hence to get a place, because the council coffers cannot afford a community care place for her as the public purse prudence does not recognise her namesake. Labour would rather keep the war chest closed than address real need.

The Executive proposals fail Scotland because a disproportionate amount of its budget is spent on its obsession with wholesale stock transfer proposals. The policy of transferring 25 per cent of Scotland's housing stock could cost as much as £4.8 billion over the next 40 years. Is that a legacy that we should leave our children?

On investment, I will quote the submission of the Glasgow and west of Scotland forum of housing associations to the housing green paper. It put it better than I could:

\"Affordable good quality social housing requires significant amounts of public subsidy. Extending the role of the private sector without increasing public expenditure input is a recipe for either spiralling rents or inadequate maintenance or both.\"

The investment strategy proposed in the financial proposals of the Scottish Executive will deliver precisely that.

Then there is Barnett. Remember the Barnett squeeze as it will have significant effects on housing budgets. The Scottish Executive, tied to the UK tax-cutting obsession, restricts borrowing consents of local authorities that retain their housing stock. The consequence will be increased rent, which will damage social inclusion strategies and increase benefit dependency.

In conclusion, the Executive must realise that that if it is to deliver its stated aims, adequate levels of public subsidy must be retained, as must realistic levels of public investment. On its own, private finance will never meet public need adequately. Labour's Tory policy is delivering poorer public services and higher finances as a result of private finance.

What Scotland needs is a Government that is prepared to tell the truth about tax and that is prepared to stand up for Scotland's interests. I am sorry to say that what I have heard from the Minister for Finance does not do either.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:00:34.116328+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1756E184P464C709343", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Breast Cancer", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26911, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 399.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 399.0, "ID": 26911, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Grahame, Christine", "ID": 1756, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Christine Grahame", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 439.0, "ContributionID": 709343, "EditedText": "I did not intend to speak in this debate, but as we went along, I realised that I am one of those women who are over 50, who get the recall and who defer going for screening. I am ashamed to say that I have deferred going for the test often, when I am one of the people who should not. What made me eventually go for the check-up was the fact that another woman in the office where I work was diagnosed with breast cancer. There needs to be a major education programme for people, including professionals, who, like myself, are as guilty as anybody of deferring going for a check-up against all the odds. When women who have been for a check-up get a recall, I understand that it is quite often the case that a faulty plate has been taken. I had a friend who had to wait a week after being told that she had a recall to find out that it was only another check-up. For the whole week, she did not eat and was worried sick—she imagined herself in a coffin. We must do something about the procedures for recalls, so that further scans are taken as quickly as possible and women's minds are put at ease. I thank Pauline McNeill for securing this debate which allows the Parliament to highlight the problem.", "EditedTextHTML": "I did not intend to speak in this debate, but as we went along, I realised that I am one of those women who are over 50, who get the recall and who defer going for screening. I am ashamed to say that I have deferred going for the test often, when I am one of the people who should not. What made me eventually go for the check-up was the fact that another woman in the office where I work was diagnosed with breast cancer.

There needs to be a major education programme for people, including professionals, who, like myself, are as guilty as anybody of deferring going for a check-up against all the odds.

When women who have been for a check-up get a recall, I understand that it is quite often the case that a faulty plate has been taken. I had a friend who had to wait a week after being told that she had a recall to find out that it was only another check-up. For the whole week, she did not eat and was worried sick—she imagined herself in a coffin.

We must do something about the procedures for recalls, so that further scans are taken as quickly as possible and women's minds are put at ease.

I thank Pauline McNeill for securing this debate which allows the Parliament to highlight the problem.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:00:47.4219837+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C709159", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 41.0, "ContributionID": 709159, "EditedText": "TheExecutive claims that it wants to recruit, reward and retain high-quality teachers, which is essential to the maintenance of a world-class education system. What extra money will be provided for the funding of better pay and conditions settlements for Scotland's teachers?", "EditedTextHTML": "The

Executive claims that it wants to recruit, reward and retain high-quality teachers, which is essential to the maintenance of a world-class education system. What extra money will be provided for the funding of better pay and conditions settlements for Scotland's teachers?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:00:15.9738701+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C709309", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 360.0, "ContributionID": 709309, "EditedText": "To preserve my reputation for fair-mindedness, I would like to say to Richard Simpson that I welcome the Minister for Finance's decision to give the Finance Committee access to level 2 financial information. Neither men will be surprised to hear that I will now be demanding level 3, level 4, level 5 and level 6 financial information to satisfy my interest. One statistic that the minister did not include in his outline is the fact that, over the three years from 1999 to 2002, spending is rising two and a half times faster in England than in Scotland. The rise in England is 4.4 per cent, compared with 1.8 per cent in Scotland. That is what the anoraks of the world call the Barnett squeeze. The Barnett formula is not generous to Scotland. It is not a benefit; it is a constraint.", "EditedTextHTML": "To preserve my reputation for fair-mindedness, I would like to say to Richard Simpson that I welcome the Minister for Finance's decision to give the Finance Committee access to level 2 financial information. Neither men will be surprised to hear that I will now be demanding level 3, level 4, level 5 and level 6 financial information to satisfy my interest.

One statistic that the minister did not include in his outline is the fact that, over the three years from 1999 to 2002, spending is rising two and a half times faster in England than in Scotland. The rise in England is 4.4 per cent, compared with 1.8 per cent in Scotland. That is what the anoraks of the world call the Barnett squeeze. The Barnett formula is not generous to Scotland. It is not a benefit; it is a constraint.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:12:28.4701587+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C709311", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 06 Oct 1999", "ID": 4183 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "End": "1999-10-06T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Expenditure Plans", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26910, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26910, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 364.0, "ContributionID": 709311, "EditedText": "Richard Simpson said that the Barnett formula was good for us. As I have just illustrated, that is not the case. The minister made points about the negotiation of future budgets, particularly in relation to the Treasury and the future funding settlement for Scotland. How does the minister propose to deliver a process that can be carried out in what he called an open and transparent way? I have never known Her Majesty's Treasury to be open and transparent. Mary Mulligan accused my colleagues of not living in the real world. She must not have been listening to Kenneth Gibson's speech, which captured the reality of the situation. The Government is cutting in real terms what is going into local authorities while adding to the burdens that local authorities are being forced to bear. That is why my constituents do not have adequate social work provision for residential care and why there is not enough investment in the education service in the areas of Scotland where the population is increasing. None of that will be solved by the things that the minister talked about today. Keith Raffan—I am glad to see him back in the chamber again—boasted about the money that was in place to encourage students to enter higher education, particularly those from low-income households. We support that process but where is the joined-up thinking? That money will not be effective unless we take account of the regime that exists for the financial support of students. The minister said that the final stage of the exercise he is involved in will be the process of monitoring, evaluation and review. That gets to the heart of the problems that I have with what the Administration is doing. It is great at making announcement after announcement but we are in no position to judge the effectiveness of any of the measures. Last week, the Parliament—including members of the Conservative party, our opponents in Opposition—refused to support our sensible measures to put in place a framework to benchmark the Scottish economy and let us judge the performance of the Executive. I want measures to be put in place that will allow us to test the effectiveness of its policy initiatives.There was confusion today between Mike Watson and Mr McConnell about whether there was or was not new money. There is, of course, no new money. The minister explained the process of rolling forward budgets and that is where the largesse that he has announced has come from. Who is going to pay for the new programme of action? The people who are paying tuition fees, the people who will pay the toll tax and the people who pay council tax.", "EditedTextHTML": "Richard Simpson said that the Barnett formula was good for us. As I have just illustrated, that is not the case.

The minister made points about the negotiation of future budgets, particularly in relation to the Treasury and the future funding settlement for Scotland. How does the minister propose to deliver a process that can be carried out in what he called an open and transparent way? I have never known Her Majesty's Treasury to be open and transparent.

Mary Mulligan accused my colleagues of not living in the real world. She must not have been listening to Kenneth Gibson's speech, which captured the reality of the situation. The Government is cutting in real terms what is going into local authorities while adding to the burdens that local authorities are being forced to bear. That is why my constituents do not have adequate social work provision for residential care and why there is not enough investment in the education service in the areas of Scotland where the population is increasing. None of that will be solved by the things that the minister talked about today.

Keith Raffan—I am glad to see him back in the chamber again—boasted about the money that was in place to encourage students to enter higher education, particularly those from low-income households. We support that process but where is the joined-up thinking? That money will not be effective unless we take account of the regime that exists for the financial support of students.

The minister said that the final stage of the exercise he is involved in will be the process of monitoring, evaluation and review. That gets to the heart of the problems that I have with what the Administration is doing. It is great at making announcement after announcement but we are in no position to judge the effectiveness of any of the measures.

Last week, the Parliament—including members of the Conservative party, our opponents in Opposition—refused to support our sensible measures to put in place a framework to benchmark the Scottish economy and let us judge the performance of the Executive. I want measures to be put in place that will allow us to

test the effectiveness of its policy initiatives.

There was confusion today between Mike Watson and Mr McConnell about whether there was or was not new money. There is, of course, no new money. The minister explained the process of rolling forward budgets and that is where the largesse that he has announced has come from.

Who is going to pay for the new programme of action? The people who are paying tuition fees, the people who will pay the toll tax and the people who pay council tax.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:12:28.4701587+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C708729", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 15.0, "ContributionID": 708729, "EditedText": "I will give way in a minute, Hugh. The Executive is the third party in the Scottish Joint Negotiating Committee for Teaching Staff in School Education, albeit with observer status. It has never departed from COSLA's line, it encouraged teachers to accept the offer, and it criticised teachers when they rejected the offer. In truth, COSLA's final offer was as much the Executive's creation as it was COSLA's. Arguably it was even more the Executive's creation, for reasons that I will come to.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will give way in a minute, Hugh.

The Executive is the third party in the Scottish Joint Negotiating Committee for Teaching Staff in School Education, albeit with observer status. It has never departed from COSLA's line, it encouraged teachers to accept the offer, and it criticised teachers when they rejected the offer. In truth, COSLA's final offer was as much the Executive's creation as it was COSLA's. Arguably it was even more the Executive's creation, for reasons that I will come to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:00:59.8834011+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C708731", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 19.0, "ContributionID": 708731, "EditedText": "No, Mr Henry, I believe in the continuation of the SJNC and that this year's pay dispute is a matter for teachers and COSLA to deal with through the SJNC. The real question this morning is for the minister: if, next Friday, when the SJNC meets, COSLA and the unions agree on an offer that is in excess of the money that is provided by the Executive for teachers' pay, will Sam Galbraith make up the difference? That is the real question, and I hope that we will get an answer to it. Let me turn to the offer that has been rejected by 98 per cent of the teaching profession—an offer that by any standards of democracy and partnership should, in its current form, be dead and buried, but an offer that is still hanging around by virtue of the committee of inquiry's terms of reference, which state: \"The committee's recommendations may cover any or all of the issues set out in the SJNC management side's offer to the teachers' side.\" Let us look at pay. It has been argued that the teachers' pay offer of an average of 14 per cent over three years is generous, because it is above inflation. The minister said last week that it was not unreasonable. The argument is not bad, until it is put into context—the context of the dramatic erosion of teachers' pay over the past 30 years. The index of average earnings shows that teachers' salaries have fallen behind by 8 per cent. When they are compared to the average salaries of other graduates, the position is even worse—teachers' salaries are now a staggering 16 per cent behind. COSLA's proposed increase averages 4.7 per cent a year for the next three years. However, the increase in average earnings is more than 5 per cent. By encouraging teachers to accept the offer, the Minister for Education was asking them to sign up to a deal that would see their pay further eroded over the next three years. Would he have voted for that? I think not.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, Mr Henry, I believe in the continuation of the SJNC and that this year's pay dispute is a matter for teachers and COSLA to deal with through the SJNC. The real question this morning is for the minister: if, next Friday, when the SJNC meets, COSLA and the unions agree on an offer that is in excess of the money that is provided by the Executive for teachers' pay, will Sam Galbraith make up the difference? That is the real question, and I hope that we will get an answer to it.

Let me turn to the offer that has been rejected by 98 per cent of the teaching profession—an offer that by any standards of democracy and partnership should, in its current form, be dead and buried, but an offer that is still hanging around by virtue of the committee of inquiry's terms of reference, which state:

\"The committee's recommendations may cover any or all of the issues set out in the SJNC management side's offer to the teachers' side.\"

Let us look at pay. It has been argued that the teachers' pay offer of an average of 14 per cent over three years is generous, because it is above inflation. The minister said last week that it was not unreasonable. The argument is not bad, until it is put into context—the context of the dramatic erosion of teachers' pay over the past 30 years. The index of average earnings shows that teachers' salaries have fallen behind by 8 per cent. When they are compared to the average salaries of other graduates, the position is even worse—teachers' salaries are now a staggering 16 per cent behind. COSLA's proposed increase averages 4.7 per cent a year for the next three years. However, the increase in average earnings is more than 5 per cent. By encouraging teachers to accept the offer, the Minister for Education was asking them to sign up to a deal that would see their pay further eroded over the next three years. Would he have voted for that? I think not.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:00:59.8834011+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C708738", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 34.0, "ContributionID": 708738, "EditedText": "Which individuals and bodies did the minister consult before taking the decision to set up the independent committee of inquiry? Will he justify his decision not to have on that committee any representatives of classroom teachers or of teaching unions? Can he explain how he can square that with his desire to work in partnership with the teachers? I am sure that the teachers will be delighted to hear his words of praise, but they will ring hollow—he says that there are many talented teachers in Scotland, yet he could not find one to serve on the committee of inquiry.", "EditedTextHTML": "Which individuals and bodies did the minister consult before taking the decision to set up the independent committee of inquiry? Will he justify his decision not to have on that committee any representatives of classroom teachers or of teaching unions? Can he explain how he can square that with his desire to work in partnership with the teachers? I am sure that the teachers will be delighted to hear his words of praise, but they will ring hollow—he says that there are many talented teachers in Scotland, yet he could not find one to serve on the committee of inquiry.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:00:59.8834011+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C708766", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 92.0, "ContributionID": 708766, "EditedText": "Does Mr Stone agree that the committee of inquiry's terms of reference invite it to bring back proposals on the COSLA offer, which is why it is important to discuss them and to ask Sam Galbraith to admit the defects in that offer? I am interested that Mr Stone is meeting the unions, but as a Liberal Democrat would it not be more constructive to ask the Liberal Democrat members of the Executive to put pressure on Sam Galbraith to resolve the dispute?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does Mr Stone agree that the committee of inquiry's terms of reference invite it to bring back proposals on the COSLA offer, which is why it is important to discuss them and to ask Sam Galbraith to admit the defects in that offer? I am interested that Mr Stone is meeting the unions, but as a Liberal Democrat would it not be more constructive to ask the Liberal Democrat members of the Executive to put pressure on Sam Galbraith to resolve the dispute?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:01:10.1212253+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C708778", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 121.0, "ContributionID": 708778, "EditedText": "Does not Mary accept that it is the minister rather than the SNP who is predetermining the future of the SJNC? I hear what she says about the timing of the debate. The choice of timing was not ours: I would rather have had the debate last week, when Sam Galbraith made his announcement about the committee of inquiry. Does she not agree that it would be wiser, following Sam's logic, to refer the issue of the SJNC to the committee of inquiry to decide, rather than to predetermine the outcome, as he is trying to do?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does not Mary accept that it is the minister rather than the SNP who is predetermining the future of the SJNC? I hear what she says about the timing of the debate. The choice of timing was not ours: I would rather have had the debate last week, when Sam Galbraith made his announcement about the committee of inquiry. Does she not agree that it would be wiser, following Sam's logic, to refer the issue of the SJNC to the committee of inquiry to decide, rather than to predetermine the outcome, as he is trying to do?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:01:10.1212253+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C708846", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 273.0, "ContributionID": 708846, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:00:03.7213861+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C708848", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 277.0, "ContributionID": 708848, "EditedText": "That was an interesting rundown of the Labour manifesto. Mr Peacock has gone through a range of Labour policy initiatives, some of which I agree with, which may come as a surprise. Does he not agree that all that will be put in serious jeopardy if the teachers have to go on strike? Does he not think that that, more than anything else, will threaten the reputation of Scottish education and the standards of education for our children?", "EditedTextHTML": "That was an interesting rundown of the Labour manifesto. Mr Peacock has gone through a range of Labour policy initiatives, some of which I agree with, which may come as a surprise. Does he not agree that all that will be put in serious jeopardy if the teachers have to go on strike? Does he not think that that, more than anything else, will threaten the reputation of Scottish education and the standards of education for our children?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:00:03.7213861+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708725", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Thursday 30 September 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26876, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26876, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 5.0, "ContributionID": 708725, "EditedText": "That is a very polite point of order, Mr Russell, but I have decided to keep to the previous practice, with the compromise that the Opposition and Executive spokespersons will have the same amount of time. However, I make it clear again that my decision is not to be regarded as setting a precedent, and that the Procedures Committee is currently considering the question of who should wind up such debates. Before the meeting begins, I wish to inform members that I am to participate on behalf of the Parliament in an international conference on federalism in Quebec. The conference is to be opened by the Prime Minister of Canada, Jean Chretien, and closed by President Clinton. I might add that all costs for the conference are to be met by the organisers. While there, I shall take the opportunity to meet the Speaker of the House of Commons in Canada, and shall therefore be absent from the meetings in this chamber next Wednesday and Thursday. I trust that members will grant me leave of absence. Before we come to the first item of business this morning, I wish to announce that there will be a ministerial statement at 12.30 pm on Beattie Media and the activities of professional lobbying firms.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is a very polite point of order, Mr Russell, but I have decided to keep to the previous practice, with the compromise that the Opposition and Executive spokespersons will have the same amount of time. However, I make it clear again that my decision is not to be regarded as setting a precedent, and that the Procedures Committee is currently considering the question of who should wind up such debates.

Before the meeting begins, I wish to inform members that I am to participate on behalf of the Parliament in an international conference on federalism in Quebec. The conference is to be opened by the Prime Minister of Canada, Jean Chretien, and closed by President Clinton. I might add that all costs for the conference are to be met by the organisers. While there, I shall take the opportunity to meet the Speaker of the House of Commons in Canada, and shall therefore be absent from the meetings in this chamber next Wednesday and Thursday. I trust that members will grant me leave of absence.

Before we come to the first item of business this morning, I wish to announce that there will be a ministerial statement at 12.30 pm on Beattie Media and the activities of professional lobbying firms.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C708743", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan (Falkirk West): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 44.0, "ContributionID": 708743, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C708747", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell (South of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 52.0, "ContributionID": 708747, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "

Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708750", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 58.0, "ContributionID": 708750, "EditedText": "Order. I have no friends.", "EditedTextHTML": "Order. I have no friends.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C708751", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Galbraith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 60.0, "ContributionID": 708751, "EditedText": "It is a principle of mine always to respond privately to letters that are sent to me. I suggest that the member does the same, rather than, as he always does, conducting his business through soundbites in the press. Perhaps he will change his ways, but I suspect that a leopard does not change its spots. The need for modern and professional conditions for teachers is clear and widely accepted and is an essential part of our wider strategy of developing Scottish school education so that we can deliver the best for our children. The existing negotiating machinery cannot deliver what is required. The Executive did not choose nor want the circumstances in which it finds itself. Indeed, the Executive tried very hard to avoid them.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is a principle of mine always to respond privately to letters that are sent to me. I suggest that the member does the same, rather than, as he always does, conducting his business through soundbites in the press. Perhaps he will change his ways, but I suspect that a leopard does not change its spots.

The need for modern and professional conditions for teachers is clear and widely accepted and is an essential part of our wider strategy of developing Scottish school education so that we can deliver the best for our children. The existing negotiating machinery cannot deliver

what is required. The Executive did not choose nor want the circumstances in which it finds itself. Indeed, the Executive tried very hard to avoid them.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C708758", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 75.0, "ContributionID": 708758, "EditedText": "I am not quite sure that being excused by Brian Monteith is a privilege. I am sure that he will confirm the points that I made to the convener of the committee and others that such conflict of scheduling is a difficulty that is found throughout the Parliament. I would like to see a little more understanding about that for all members.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am not quite sure that being excused by Brian Monteith is a privilege. I am sure that he will confirm the points that I made to the convener of the committee and others that such conflict of scheduling is a difficulty that is found throughout the Parliament. I would like to see a little more understanding about that for all members.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C708757", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Monteith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 73.0, "ContributionID": 708757, "EditedText": "I would like to think that that might have been the solution, but I do not believe that it would have been, nor do I think that it would have given us the chance to resolve the dispute. I will explain why I take that view and a number of my colleagues will elaborate on those matters. The suggestion that the Education, Culture and Sport Committee should be the vehicle to resolve the dispute shows that, although the SNP is the largest Opposition party in this chamber, it is not yet mature enough for Government. As my colleagues will say, we have grave concerns about raising the limit of composite class size from 25 to 30. In a circular, the Government proposed the reduction of composite class sizes, but it now seems willing to give up on that proposal. We have grave misgivings about the removal of promoted teacher posts and senior teacher positions, which were introduced by the Conservative Government to reward teachers who stayed in the classroom. These issues are not specifically about resources—they are management issues and, even if there had been more money, I believe that teachers would still have rejected the settlement. The Education, Culture and Sport Committee already meets weekly. To be honest, it could easily meet twice weekly, such is the size of its brief. It covers not just education, but culture and sport, and it has to deal with the education bill. At the end of last week, another report—on special educational needs—was published, which the committee has not yet discussed. That is not to mention other subjects such as Hampden, which comes up perennially, the cultural strategy review, with all that that entails, and the new architectural strategy, which was launched yesterday. If the committee is to work properly, those issues have to be given time. I do not believe that the committee has the time, given the education bill in particular, to take on the teachers' dispute. So busy is the committee with briefings and deliberations that only two members have attended every meeting. Some of the worst attendees are members of the SNP. Before they pop up and complain, that is not through any fault of their own; it is because of the heavy work load that those members face—Mike Russell is the SNP's business manager—and because of the conflicts of committee scheduling.", "EditedTextHTML": "I would like to think that that might have been the solution, but I do not believe that it would have been, nor do I think that it would have given us the chance to resolve the dispute. I will explain why I take that view and a number of my colleagues will elaborate on those matters.

The suggestion that the Education, Culture and Sport Committee should be the vehicle to resolve the dispute shows that, although the SNP is the largest Opposition party in this chamber, it is not yet mature enough for Government. As my colleagues will say, we have grave concerns about raising the limit of composite class size from 25 to

30. In a circular, the Government proposed the reduction of composite class sizes, but it now seems willing to give up on that proposal. We have grave misgivings about the removal of promoted teacher posts and senior teacher positions, which were introduced by the Conservative Government to reward teachers who stayed in the classroom. These issues are not specifically about resources—they are management issues and, even if there had been more money, I believe that teachers would still have rejected the settlement.

The Education, Culture and Sport Committee already meets weekly. To be honest, it could easily meet twice weekly, such is the size of its brief. It covers not just education, but culture and sport, and it has to deal with the education bill. At the end of last week, another report—on special educational needs—was published, which the committee has not yet discussed. That is not to mention other subjects such as Hampden, which comes up perennially, the cultural strategy review, with all that that entails, and the new architectural strategy, which was launched yesterday.

If the committee is to work properly, those issues have to be given time. I do not believe that the committee has the time, given the education bill in particular, to take on the teachers' dispute. So busy is the committee with briefings and deliberations that only two members have attended every meeting. Some of the worst attendees are members of the SNP. Before they pop up and complain, that is not through any fault of their own; it is because of the heavy work load that those members face—Mike Russell is the SNP's business manager—and because of the conflicts of committee scheduling.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1828E200P487C708776", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacDonald, Margo", "ID": 1828, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margo MacDonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Margo MacDonald (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 116.0, "ContributionID": 708776, "EditedText": "Murray Tosh is absolutely right—the offer made by COSLA is not enough. It is not enough to prove to teachers that the Government values them. COSLA made the offer, but it is the Scottish Executive that will carry the can for the disappointment and bitterness that will result from this situation, which comes in the wake of a new Labour Prime Minister who promised so much for education and devolved so little power to the Scottish Executive. I do not believe that Sam Galbraith wants to defend the indefensible offer that has been made, but he has been left with no choice. Murray Tosh eloquently described the bottleneck in career development, promotion and management that would arise in schools under the arrangement proposed by COSLA. Sam Galbraith knows that that can only damage children and education. I believe that the minister also knows that the percentage increase in salary that he is offering, compared with that offered to other professions, is no motivation for young people to enter teaching. We need younger people in teaching for no other reason than to take up the slack that has been left by the experienced older teachers who are being forced out of the profession early because they cannot take any more. We talked yesterday about the need for a highly educated, flexible work force. Where will that come from, without teachers? Without teachers, there is only ignorance. It is an insult to teachers to try to compare them with other professionals, as previous Conservative Governments did. With their partisan pecking order, those Governments are to blame for much of the disappointment that has been visited on the SJNC. The Conservative Government wanted to ensure that it paid policemen—it did no harm to policemen. It wanted to pay people in the armed services—it did no harm to them, either. However, teachers paid the price for that. As a young teacher, more than 30 years ago, with my first pay packet I was able to buy my mother a three-piece suite. I know that it is anecdotal, but it happened. No young teacher leaving a training college or university now can walk into the Co-operative store, as I did, and put their money down to buy a suite. I am sorry if that sounds homespun, but a lot of teaching is homespun: that is how we have asked teachers to be over the past 30 years. As we have been cutting their status and their purchasing power relative to other professions, we have asked them to buttress the breakdown of the family unit. We have asked them to buttress the effects of horrible poverty in schools, amid the plenty that children see on television. We have asked teachers to make good all the gaps that have been left by the social changes of the past 30 years—and how have we rewarded them? I regret, as I think that the minister is a decent man, that he is having to pursue a policy of further reducing the status of teachers. I will not repeat the arguments in favour of the diminution of career development paths, which is what that policy will do. I have a letter from someone who teaches in a school in Lothian, asking me whether I know of any comparable professional team that suffers the same percentage of nervous breakdowns during its work. Among teachers in that school, the figure has been 17 per cent over the past five years. That is what teaching is about. If we value teachers, we will not take away the only protection that they have, which is the statutory role of the SJNC. That body has disappointed people—much of what Jamie Stone said was correct—but teachers know that they would lose a great deal if they lost the means to enforce the results of an objective review of their salaries and conditions. The representation of their interests would have only the status of a pay review board, and we know what Governments have done with the salary recommendations of pay review boards. We are asking teachers to give up far too much, and I am asking the Government to think again. I am asking it to think about arbitration, and about whether the Education, Culture and Sport Committee of this Parliament can contribute more. Sam is shaking his head, but he is writing down this Parliament and its responsibility for education, and I am sure that he does not want to do that.", "EditedTextHTML": "Murray Tosh is absolutely right—the offer made by COSLA is not enough. It is not enough to prove to teachers that the Government values them. COSLA made the offer, but it is the Scottish Executive that will carry the can for the disappointment and bitterness that will result from this situation, which comes in the wake of a new Labour Prime Minister who promised so much for education and devolved so little power to the Scottish Executive.

I do not believe that Sam Galbraith wants to defend the indefensible offer that has been made, but he has been left with no choice. Murray Tosh eloquently described the bottleneck in career development, promotion and management that would arise in schools under the arrangement proposed by COSLA. Sam Galbraith knows that that can only damage children and education.

I believe that the minister also knows that the percentage increase in salary that he is offering, compared with that offered to other professions, is no motivation for young people to enter teaching. We need younger people in teaching for no other reason than to take up the slack that has been left by the experienced older teachers who are being forced out of the profession early because they cannot take any more.

We talked yesterday about the need for a highly educated, flexible work force. Where will that come from, without teachers? Without teachers, there is only ignorance. It is an insult to teachers to try to compare them with other professionals, as previous Conservative Governments did. With their partisan pecking order, those Governments are to blame for much of the disappointment that has been visited on the SJNC. The Conservative Government wanted to ensure that it paid policemen—it did no harm to policemen. It wanted to pay people in the armed services—it did no harm to them, either. However, teachers paid the price for that.

As a young teacher, more than 30 years ago, with my first pay packet I was able to buy my mother a three-piece suite. I know that it is anecdotal, but it happened. No young teacher leaving a training college or university now can walk into the Co-operative store, as I did, and put their money down to buy a suite. I am sorry if that sounds homespun, but a lot of teaching is homespun: that is how we have asked teachers to be over the past 30 years. As we have been cutting their status and their purchasing power relative to other professions, we have asked them to buttress the breakdown of the family unit. We

have asked them to buttress the effects of horrible poverty in schools, amid the plenty that children see on television. We have asked teachers to make good all the gaps that have been left by the social changes of the past 30 years—and how have we rewarded them?

I regret, as I think that the minister is a decent man, that he is having to pursue a policy of further reducing the status of teachers. I will not repeat the arguments in favour of the diminution of career development paths, which is what that policy will do. I have a letter from someone who teaches in a school in Lothian, asking me whether I know of any comparable professional team that suffers the same percentage of nervous breakdowns during its work. Among teachers in that school, the figure has been 17 per cent over the past five years. That is what teaching is about.

If we value teachers, we will not take away the only protection that they have, which is the statutory role of the SJNC. That body has disappointed people—much of what Jamie Stone said was correct—but teachers know that they would lose a great deal if they lost the means to enforce the results of an objective review of their salaries and conditions. The representation of their interests would have only the status of a pay review board, and we know what Governments have done with the salary recommendations of pay review boards.

We are asking teachers to give up far too much, and I am asking the Government to think again. I am asking it to think about arbitration, and about whether the Education, Culture and Sport Committee of this Parliament can contribute more. Sam is shaking his head, but he is writing down this Parliament and its responsibility for education, and I am sure that he does not want to do that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1837E108P186C708779", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mulligan, Mary", "ID": 1837, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Linlithgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Mulligan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Mulligan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 123.0, "ContributionID": 708779, "EditedText": "If we are to get out of the present impasse—and the SJNC has not been able to do so—setting up an inquiry into how that organisation operates is a way forward. Although I hope that the Education, Culture and Sport Committee will be able to ask questions and extract information on the present impasse, it will in no way operate as an arbitrator. That is not its role, and there are people who are much better skilled to offer that service if it is deemed necessary. It is important to reiterate that this Parliament is not the employer. As someone who has come from a local authority, I can assure members who have any doubts that the local authorities have made it clear that they want to handle their own employment negotiations. At the beginning of the draft improvement in Scottish education bill, it is stated clearly that the responsibility for managing education will continue to lie with the local authorities. I do not remember any members suggesting otherwise.", "EditedTextHTML": "If we are to get out of the present impasse—and the SJNC has not been able to do so—setting up an inquiry into how that organisation operates is a way forward. Although I hope that the Education, Culture and Sport Committee will be able to ask questions and extract information on the present impasse, it will in no way operate as an arbitrator. That is not its role, and there are people who are much better skilled to offer that service if it is deemed necessary.

It is important to reiterate that this Parliament is not the employer. As someone who has come from a local authority, I can assure members who have any doubts that the local authorities have made it clear that they want to handle their own employment negotiations. At the beginning of the draft improvement in Scottish education bill, it is stated clearly that the responsibility for managing education will continue to lie with the local authorities. I do not remember any members suggesting otherwise.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C708783", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 131.0, "ContributionID": 708783, "EditedText": "No. Will Mrs Mulligan wind up, please?", "EditedTextHTML": "No. Will Mrs Mulligan wind up, please?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1873E89P171C708791", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jackson, Dr Sylvia", "ID": 1873, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Stirling" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sylvia Jackson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Jackson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 150.0, "ContributionID": 708791, "EditedText": "The programme for government and the consultation document \"Improving our Schools\" lay great stress on supporting teachers, enhancing professionalism and thus improving teaching and learning. All are critical to improving standards. I believe that we can deliver our promises and deliver real improvements in the performance of our schools and in the education we provide for our children, but we can do so only by continuing to work in partnership—I emphasise partnership—with teachers. I commend the Government's amendment.", "EditedTextHTML": "The programme for government and the consultation document \"Improving our Schools\" lay great stress on supporting teachers, enhancing professionalism and thus improving teaching and learning. All are critical to improving standards. I believe that we can deliver our promises and deliver real improvements in the performance of our schools and in the education we provide for our children, but we can do so only by continuing to work in partnership—I emphasise partnership—with teachers. I commend the Government's amendment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C708799", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 170.0, "ContributionID": 708799, "EditedText": "It is estimated that Highland Council needs £28 million for essential maintenance work, £30 million for existing capital and a further £20 million, yet this Government asks us to congratulate it for £51 million. Dennis Canavan mentioned this point. I feel strongly about testing in primary schools. I went to a seminar last week in Glasgow on autism. Far too many people with learning difficulties and disabilities are slipping through the system. It is not right that in this age we are picking up autism, Asperger's syndrome and dyslexia when people are 30 or 35. That should be done in primary schools.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is estimated that Highland Council needs £28 million for essential maintenance work, £30 million for existing capital and a further £20 million, yet this Government asks us to congratulate it for £51 million.

Dennis Canavan mentioned this point. I feel strongly about testing in primary schools. I went to a seminar last week in Glasgow on autism. Far too many people with learning difficulties and disabilities are slipping through the system. It is not right that in this age we are picking up autism, Asperger's syndrome and dyslexia when people are 30 or 35. That should be done in primary schools.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2123E103P242C708800", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Chisholm, Malcolm", "ID": 2123, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh North and Leith" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Malcolm Chisholm", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 173.0, "ContributionID": 708800, "EditedText": "As a member of the EIS, I declare an interest and express some difficulties with the COSLA offer. I am pleased that the Executive has distanced itself from it. I am concerned about the raising of the limit on the number in composite classes. I am also worried about the reduction from 16,000 promoted posts to 4,000 professional leaders. That leaves me wondering how secondary schools are going to work, and how many women are going to be in promoted posts.", "EditedTextHTML": "As a member of the EIS, I declare an interest and express some difficulties with the

COSLA offer. I am pleased that the Executive has distanced itself from it. I am concerned about the raising of the limit on the number in composite classes. I am also worried about the reduction from 16,000 promoted posts to 4,000 professional leaders. That leaves me wondering how secondary schools are going to work, and how many women are going to be in promoted posts.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1873E89P171C708787", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jackson, Dr Sylvia", "ID": 1873, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Stirling" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sylvia Jackson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Sylvia Jackson (Stirling) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 142.0, "ContributionID": 708787, "EditedText": "I declare a particular interest in the debate as an EIS member—as others in the chamber are—as a former teacher and as a teacher trainer. The 98 per cent rejection of the salary andconditions offer shows clearly that a new approach is needed. It is obvious that something is drastically wrong, either with the substance of the offer or with the mechanism by which the package was agreed—or possibly both. I have difficulty with the SNP motion as it presents the root of the problem as financial. Although it is true that money is at issue, those of us who are closely involved with the profession know that there are a number of other deep- seated problems, such as those Maureen Macmillan alluded to. One is work load. There is no doubt that the curricular changes that have taken place over the past 10 years, standard grade, the five to 14 programme and more recently the higher still development programme, have meant teachers being asked to make significant changes to their way of working. Those are not simply changes to the syllabus but changes in how classes are grouped and taught. There have also been significant changes in assessment requirements: more paperwork and more internal assessment. While most of the changes represent good practice, they are all time consuming and need to be assimilated into the everyday routine. To give some idea of the continuing problems with the implementation of the higher still programme, I will quote from a Stirling secondary school. Departments were asked to comment on their progress with higher still. One said that there was a \"limited supply of exemplar material; more paperwork for all staff–course logs, internal assessments, assessment proformas; limitations and pressure on time for assessing and re-assessing; limitations on IT resources for use of CD rom and inventing; at Higher, too many ‘new' types of questions—no link with previous learning from S Grade.\" It is hardly surprising that in the present pay and conditions round, teachers rejected the deal. The proposal suggests, as Brian Monteith and Murray Tosh said, that the principal teacher posts in secondary schools should be abolished. They are the very people who are needed to spearhead the higher still programme. A new management structure was proposed in their place, but the teaching unions think it is less than clear. Even if those arguments are not accepted— although I think we do accept them—there is the further aspect, on which I think there is universal agreement, which is that the negotiating machinery of the SJNC has not worked. As a result, teachers in Scotland are falling further and further behind their colleagues in England and Wales in financial terms.", "EditedTextHTML": "I declare a particular interest in the debate as an EIS member—as others in the chamber are—as a former teacher and as a teacher trainer.

The 98 per cent rejection of the salary and

conditions offer shows clearly that a new approach is needed. It is obvious that something is drastically wrong, either with the substance of the offer or with the mechanism by which the package was agreed—or possibly both. I have difficulty with the SNP motion as it presents the root of the problem as financial.

Although it is true that money is at issue, those of us who are closely involved with the profession know that there are a number of other deep- seated problems, such as those Maureen Macmillan alluded to. One is work load. There is no doubt that the curricular changes that have taken place over the past 10 years, standard grade, the five to 14 programme and more recently the higher still development programme, have meant teachers being asked to make significant changes to their way of working.

Those are not simply changes to the syllabus but changes in how classes are grouped and taught. There have also been significant changes in assessment requirements: more paperwork and more internal assessment. While most of the changes represent good practice, they are all time consuming and need to be assimilated into the everyday routine.

To give some idea of the continuing problems with the implementation of the higher still programme, I will quote from a Stirling secondary school. Departments were asked to comment on their progress with higher still. One said that there was a

\"limited supply of exemplar material; more paperwork for all staff–course logs, internal assessments, assessment proformas; limitations and pressure on time for assessing and re-assessing; limitations on IT resources for use of CD rom and inventing; at Higher, too many ‘new' types of questions—no link with previous learning from S Grade.\"

It is hardly surprising that in the present pay and conditions round, teachers rejected the deal. The proposal suggests, as Brian Monteith and Murray Tosh said, that the principal teacher posts in secondary schools should be abolished. They are the very people who are needed to spearhead the higher still programme. A new management structure was proposed in their place, but the teaching unions think it is less than clear.

Even if those arguments are not accepted— although I think we do accept them—there is the further aspect, on which I think there is universal agreement, which is that the negotiating machinery of the SJNC has not worked. As a result, teachers in Scotland are falling further and further behind their colleagues in England and Wales in financial terms.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2118E157P454C708793", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Quinan, Mr Lloyd", "ID": 2118, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lloyd Quinan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Lloyd Quinan (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 156.0, "ContributionID": 708793, "EditedText": "When the Labour party came to power, it said its priority was education, education, education. It seems to think that education can be divorced from teachers. It is extraordinarily arrogant of the Labour party to believe that it and it alone has the future of education and of children at heart. It fails to take into account the fact that the vast majority of teachers are themselves parents. It is absurd to suggest that teachers are not interested in education and standards, only in money. Consultation, openness and partnership are buzz words of new Tory-Labour, but it does not listen to the results of consultation—the SSTA and EIS ballot results. It is wilful stubbornness of the education minister to sit on the beach like King Canute. Our teachers care about education, about children and about protecting their own families and their future. Why will the Executive not listen to teachers? Why does the STUC have to write to Sam Galbraith and every other MSP to point out that the committee of inquiry is not acceptable to it? Why has the head of the EIS had to write to us to say that the scope of the inquiry is unacceptable and, because there is no trade union representation on it, the EIS will not accept its findings? What are we doing? Why is the Executive pretending that it is right and ignoring the people involved in the dispute? Like Mrs Mulligan, Mr Galbraith talks about education but divorces it from teachers. That is ludicrous. It is nonsensical to take the pretended moral high ground and tell us that only the new Labour party has the best interests of education and our children's future at heart. Where is the consultation? Where is the listening to the teachers? I do not hear it from any of the Labour benches here. I hear anecdote. I would like to ask the MSPs who are EIS members how they voted. Did they vote with their colleagues or with the 650 recalcitrant EIS members who seem to be blinded? Were new Labour members the 650 who did not vote against the deal? That is quite likely. We have to make progress. That requires money but, more important, if the minister does not sit down with the trade unions and speak to them directly, they are likely to take industrial action. The few members of new Labour who were here yesterday for Donald Gorrie's debate on football will remember that the enormous effect of the previous teachers' dispute on sport in this country was mentioned. What effect will a dispute have this time? Why does the minister want to push through concepts of industrial managerial structures in an area that cannot be assessed in that manner? I urge the minister to listen to the STUC and the EIS and to stop being blinded by a mindless and foolish ideological position.", "EditedTextHTML": "When the Labour party came to power, it said its priority was education, education, education. It seems to think that education can be divorced from teachers.

It is extraordinarily arrogant of the Labour party to believe that it and it alone has the future of education and of children at heart. It fails to take into account the fact that the vast majority of teachers are themselves parents. It is absurd to suggest that teachers are not interested in education and standards, only in money. Consultation, openness and partnership are buzz words of new Tory-Labour, but it does not listen to the results of consultation—the SSTA and EIS ballot results. It is wilful stubbornness of the education minister to sit on the beach like King Canute.

Our teachers care about education, about children and about protecting their own families and their future. Why will the Executive not listen to teachers? Why does the STUC have to write to Sam Galbraith and every other MSP to point out that the committee of inquiry is not acceptable to it? Why has the head of the EIS had to write to us to say that the scope of the inquiry is unacceptable and, because there is no trade union representation on it, the EIS will not accept its findings? What are we doing? Why is the Executive pretending that it is right and ignoring the people involved in the dispute?

Like Mrs Mulligan, Mr Galbraith talks about education but divorces it from teachers. That is ludicrous. It is nonsensical to take the pretended moral high ground and tell us that only the new Labour party has the best interests of education and our children's future at heart. Where is the consultation? Where is the listening to the teachers? I do not hear it from any of the Labour benches here. I hear anecdote.

I would like to ask the MSPs who are EIS members how they voted. Did they vote with their colleagues or with the 650 recalcitrant EIS members who seem to be blinded? Were new Labour members the 650 who did not vote against the deal? That is quite likely.

We have to make progress. That requires money but, more important, if the minister does not sit down with the trade unions and speak to them directly, they are likely to take industrial action.

The few members of new Labour who were here yesterday for Donald Gorrie's debate on football will remember that the enormous effect of the previous teachers' dispute on sport in this country was mentioned. What effect will a dispute have this time? Why does the minister want to push through concepts of industrial managerial structures in an area that cannot be assessed in that manner? I urge the minister to listen to the STUC and the EIS and to stop being blinded by a mindless and foolish ideological position.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C708796", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 164.0, "ContributionID": 708796, "EditedText": "Briefly, please.", "EditedTextHTML": "Briefly, please.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C708797", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 166.0, "ContributionID": 708797, "EditedText": "As convener of Highland Council, no sooner was the ink dry on Peter Peacock's Labour party application than he secured his place at the top of the list and subsequent ministerial position. Peter is not the flavour of the month in the Highlands, because the promises that he made last year are not being followed through this year. If Jamie Stone will forgive me, I will use the example of Tain Academy.", "EditedTextHTML": "As convener of Highland Council, no sooner was the ink dry on Peter Peacock's Labour party application than he secured his place at the top of the list and subsequent ministerial position. Peter is not the flavour of the month in the Highlands, because the promises that he made last year are not being followed through this year. If Jamie Stone will forgive me, I will use the example of Tain Academy.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1775E171P452C708803", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeod, Fiona", "ID": 1775, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona McLeod", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona McLeod: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 179.0, "ContributionID": 708803, "EditedText": "We are discussing lack of resources. Will Malcolm comment on opening up Gordon Brown's war chest of £12 billion?", "EditedTextHTML": "We are discussing lack of resources. Will Malcolm comment on opening up Gordon Brown's war chest of £12 billion?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1775E171P452C708808", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeod, Fiona", "ID": 1775, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona McLeod", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona McLeod: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 192.0, "ContributionID": 708808, "EditedText": "As we have said several times already, the money is there. It is being saved to buy votes in a year or two. Why not use it to secure children's future now?", "EditedTextHTML": "As we have said several times already, the money is there. It is being saved to buy votes in a year or two. Why not use it to secure children's future now?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2234E7P20C708806", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Aitken, Bill", "ID": 2234, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bill Aitken", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bill Aitken (Glasgow) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 187.0, "ContributionID": 708806, "EditedText": "When I saw a newspaper headline that read \"Crisis in Education\", I was reminded of the heady days of 1997, when, to the accompaniment of the mantra \"education, education, education\", Labour was swept to power. Now, two and half years down the line, we have a crisis in education, with the Government totally alienated from the teaching profession. Who would have thought that that could happen? The teachers' party has lost the confidence of the teaching profession. What has been the Government's response to that loss of confidence? Frankly, it has abdicated its responsibilities. Instead of sitting down with the Advisory, Conciliation and Arbitration Service, as it should, to achieve a compromise so that we can reach a settlement to this potentially damaging dispute, the Government has walked away from it. Surely there has never been a more classic case of passing the buck. Labour's threat to impose a solution to this dispute will have long-term and damaging effects. The party has succeeded in alienating a profession that is instinctively supportive of its ideals. The damage that it has done will stay with us for many years. Why will the Government not sit down and negotiate? Why has it threatened to abandon the SJNC? The Government has chosen a committee of inquiry to replace the SJNC because it regards that as a safe option. If the committee proposes a settlement that teachers do not fully support, the Executive will be able to say that it has taken a hands-off approach and bears no responsibility for what has been decided. It cannot abdicate responsibility in such an irresponsible manner. The fact of the matter is that the teachers' trade unions have voted overwhelmingly to reject the package that is on the table. They are right to do so. First, there is the money factor. All teachers are dedicated to the profession, and money is often not their prime consideration. On the other hand, they have mortgages to pay and families to support. The package that is now on the table and that may eventually be imposed is short of money. Secondly, the Executive's proposals to reorganise schools are a recipe for chaos. It has been proved time and again in industry that the flat line of management does not work, so it is not likely to work in education. If we remove a tier of management—principal teachers and heads of department—and replace them with a diktat from on high, the system will fail. That will damage both teachers, who are seeking to make a profession out of a career, and youngsters. The Government should, as a priority, seek arbitration in the pay dispute. In the longer term, an independent pay review body might be advantageous. At the same time, the Government cannot maintain a hands-off approach. It must be involved, or confidence will continue to be lost until the degree of alienation is such that the education system disintegrates completely. As I said, who would have thought that two and a half years after the general election we would be in this position? That is an appalling indictment of the way in which education in this country is being run.", "EditedTextHTML": "When I saw a newspaper headline that read \"Crisis in Education\", I was reminded of the heady days of 1997, when, to the accompaniment of the mantra \"education, education, education\", Labour was swept to power. Now, two and half years down the line, we have a crisis in education, with the

Government totally alienated from the teaching profession. Who would have thought that that could happen? The teachers' party has lost the confidence of the teaching profession.

What has been the Government's response to that loss of confidence? Frankly, it has abdicated its responsibilities. Instead of sitting down with the Advisory, Conciliation and Arbitration Service, as it should, to achieve a compromise so that we can reach a settlement to this potentially damaging dispute, the Government has walked away from it. Surely there has never been a more classic case of passing the buck.

Labour's threat to impose a solution to this dispute will have long-term and damaging effects. The party has succeeded in alienating a profession that is instinctively supportive of its ideals. The damage that it has done will stay with us for many years. Why will the Government not sit down and negotiate? Why has it threatened to abandon the SJNC? The Government has chosen a committee of inquiry to replace the SJNC because it regards that as a safe option. If the committee proposes a settlement that teachers do not fully support, the Executive will be able to say that it has taken a hands-off approach and bears no responsibility for what has been decided. It cannot abdicate responsibility in such an irresponsible manner.

The fact of the matter is that the teachers' trade unions have voted overwhelmingly to reject the package that is on the table. They are right to do so. First, there is the money factor. All teachers are dedicated to the profession, and money is often not their prime consideration. On the other hand, they have mortgages to pay and families to support. The package that is now on the table and that may eventually be imposed is short of money.

Secondly, the Executive's proposals to reorganise schools are a recipe for chaos. It has been proved time and again in industry that the flat line of management does not work, so it is not likely to work in education. If we remove a tier of management—principal teachers and heads of department—and replace them with a diktat from on high, the system will fail. That will damage both teachers, who are seeking to make a profession out of a career, and youngsters.

The Government should, as a priority, seek arbitration in the pay dispute. In the longer term, an independent pay review body might be advantageous. At the same time, the Government cannot maintain a hands-off approach. It must be involved, or confidence will continue to be lost until the degree of alienation is such that the education system disintegrates completely. As I said, who would have thought that two and a half years after the general election we would be in this position? That is an appalling indictment of the way in which education in this country is being run.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2108E50P256C708816", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macintosh, Ken", "ID": 2108, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Eastwood" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ken Macintosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Macintosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 208.0, "ContributionID": 708816, "EditedText": "I am sorry, Nicola, but I have let you intervene three times already and each time I have let you, you have made a speech. Are you going to make another speech?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry, Nicola, but I have let you intervene three times already and each time I have let you, you have made a speech. Are you going to make another speech?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C708819", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 214.0, "ContributionID": 708819, "EditedText": "I remind members that it is up to individual members to decide whether to accept an intervention. All remarks should be addressed through the chair. This is not a debate from one side of the chamber to the other. Mr MacIntosh, would you wind up your speech, please.", "EditedTextHTML": "I remind members that it is up to individual members to decide whether to accept an intervention. All remarks should be addressed through the chair. This is not a debate from one side of the chamber to the other.

Mr MacIntosh, would you wind up your speech, please.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2108E50P256C708823", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macintosh, Ken", "ID": 2108, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Eastwood" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ken Macintosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Macintosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 222.0, "ContributionID": 708823, "EditedText": "I do not think that the committee is the place to negotiate pay. The behaviour of Nicola and her colleagues shows that the committee is a political battlefield, not a place for negotiations.", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not think that the committee is the place to negotiate pay. The behaviour of Nicola and her colleagues shows that the committee is a political battlefield, not a place for negotiations.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2010E221P512C708830", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Paterson, Gil", "ID": 2010, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Gil Paterson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Paterson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 237.0, "ContributionID": 708830, "EditedText": "I am squeezing a five-minute speech into four minutes, so I will not. I apologise. The committee ensured that all Scottish teachers were employed under the same basic conditions. That means that there are no discrepancies between richer and poorer authorities. If conditions of employment are to be negotiated locally, the good employers will be undercut by the bad and the bad undercut by the very worst. As a consequence, local authorities that have less money to spend will be less attractive to teachers. Certain authorities will attract the best teachers and others will have difficulty attracting teachers. That discrepancy will be a barrier to ensuring that all children have access to education of the best quality, regardless of where they live. The minister should recognise that the Government is continuing the old Tory handbagging of teachers—he seems to be chatting too much to notice, however. Mr Galbraith seemed to suggest that legislation would replace negotiation. He said that the committee was inflexible because its agreements have the force of law and cannot be changed without further agreement. Does the Government want to replace negotiation with legislation to get its own way? Proposals have been agreed by teachers and local authorities that would reform the committee and make it less flexible to local needs. Why is the Executive not taking those proposals on board? The Government's proposal to abandon the SJNC is a petulant response to not getting its own way with the teaching profession. The committee was responsible for safeguarding and improving Scottish education through Thatcher's years. I find it strange that a Labour Government wants to take the regressive step of abandoning national conditions. That move will not drive standards up; it will do the opposite: conditions in the classroom will deteriorate rather than improve. Proposals for reform of the SJNC have already been agreed and consideration of their implementation should be undertaken. I dedicate this debate to the unsung heroes in Scottish education who dedicate their lives to educating people in deprived areas.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am squeezing a five-minute speech into four minutes, so I will not. I apologise.

The committee ensured that all Scottish teachers were employed under the same basic conditions. That means that there are no discrepancies between richer and poorer authorities. If conditions of employment are to be negotiated locally, the good employers will be undercut by the bad and the bad undercut by the very worst. As a consequence, local authorities that have less money to spend will be less attractive to teachers. Certain authorities will attract the best teachers and others will have difficulty attracting teachers. That discrepancy will be a barrier to ensuring that all children have access to education of the best quality, regardless of where they live.

The minister should recognise that the Government is continuing the old Tory handbagging of teachers—he seems to be chatting too much to notice, however. Mr Galbraith seemed to suggest that legislation would replace negotiation. He said that the committee was inflexible because its agreements have the force of law and cannot be changed without further agreement.

Does the Government want to replace negotiation with legislation to get its own way? Proposals have been agreed by teachers and local authorities that would reform the committee and make it less flexible to local needs. Why is the Executive not taking those proposals on board? The Government's proposal to abandon the SJNC is a petulant response to not getting its own way with the teaching profession.

The committee was responsible for safeguarding and improving Scottish education through Thatcher's years. I find it strange that a Labour Government wants to take the regressive step of abandoning national conditions. That move will not drive standards up; it will do the opposite: conditions in the classroom will deteriorate rather than improve.

Proposals for reform of the SJNC have already been agreed and consideration of their implementation should be undertaken.

I dedicate this debate to the unsung heroes in Scottish education who dedicate their lives to educating people in deprived areas.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2044E178P334C708833", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jenkins, Ian", "ID": 2044, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ian Jenkins", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ian Jenkins: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 244.0, "ContributionID": 708833, "EditedText": "I agree with Mr Tosh. I would have preferred a practising teacher to have been on the committee. I hope that Mr Galbraith will think about that again. However, one teacher would not necessarily have stood for everybody. I would hate to have to talk for the whole teaching profession, or even for just secondary teachers.", "EditedTextHTML": "I agree with Mr Tosh. I would have preferred a practising teacher to have been on the committee. I hope that Mr Galbraith will think about that again. However, one teacher would not necessarily have stood for everybody. I would hate to have to talk for the whole teaching profession, or even for just secondary teachers.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C708837", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 252.0, "ContributionID": 708837, "EditedText": "No, Mr Jenkins is trying to wind up.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, Mr Jenkins is trying to wind up.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1962E35P56C708839", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mundell, David", "ID": 1962, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Mundell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David Mundell (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 257.0, "ContributionID": 708839, "EditedText": "At the very least, today's debate is to be welcomed, as the current crisis in our schools cannot be glossed over. It is worthy of more consideration than was afforded by last week's statement and questions. I thank the SNP for using its time to debate this important issue. I understand its political rationale in lodging a motion that backs teachers 100 per cent in their dispute with the Government. It is exactly the sort of motion that the Labour party would have put down under the Conservative Government. Perhaps that is why the applause from the Labour benches was so limited, even after contributions from Labour members. As Labour has found, unreserved support for good causes is the luxury of opposition. It understands that now, although it took the late, lamented Helen Liddell to spell it out. With children present in the gallery, I could not find an appropriate quote from Helen to use. One benefit of Mrs Liddell is that she can make her successor Mr Galbraith look caring and conciliatory, at least for a few days. The Executive has not realised that government is about taking difficult decisions—decisions that are not always popular with focus group members in those new Labour strongholds of Kelvinside and Morningside. Labour has talked tough when there has been the right audience, but has failed to follow through on its rhetoric when the political heat has become too much. It is time for that to stop and for the Executive to show some leadership on this issue. Most classroom, principal and head teachers have to take difficult decisions every day. I note that, when the new professional leadership grade is determined, evidence is required of successful classroom practice. I wonder whether, on the basis of the examples set by the Executive, that will involve a teacher referring a difficult decision on resources in the classroom to an expensive independent inquiry. Under all the suggested definitions and criteria—professional knowledge, satisfactory staff review and contribution to rising standards—the Executive will never attain the professional leadership grade. If that were not the case, Mr Galbraith, as the EIS has suggested, would not have sat so long on the sidelines of the negotiating process. Rather than seeking to destroy that process, he would have used his statutory power—as the third party involved in the SJNC—to become directly involved in negotiations, allowing teachers, councils and the Government to work towards an early agreement to which they could all subscribe. I should add that I am using Ronnie Smith's words, not mine. Despite the entrenched position adopted by the Executive, there is no reason why the existing mechanisms in the SJNC could not be used to end the dispute. As my colleague Brian Monteith has suggested, the matter should be referred to pendulum arbitration through ACAS, which would involve professional arbiters who would be ready and willing to take on this matter at no additional cost to the public, unlike the proposed costly independent inquiry. I cannot understand why the Executive is so reluctant to take that route. The only explanation is that it does not want to be bound by the outcome of the arbitration. Indeed, that is the great benefit of the inquiry, as Mr Galbraith made clear in his response to my question last week. As with Mr Cubie's inquiry into tuition fees, the Executive gives no undertaking to implement whatever Professor McCrone and his colleagues come up with. Surely the Executive must see from the tuition fees farce that those issues will not go away, just as Mr Galbraith must understand that difficulties with teachers' pay, conditions and negotiating mechanisms will not go away. Hard decisions will have to be taken and they might as well be taken now. On the specifics of the offer, I am staggered by the Government's blatant hypocrisy on class sizes. While seeking to give the public the impression that class sizes are to be reduced, we find in the small print that the numbers in the more teacher- demanding composite classes are to be increased from 25 to 30. There can be no clearer evidence of how shallow the Executive's commitment to education is. The individual child is irrelevant; the external gloss is everything. I ask the deputy minister to clarify the position on composite classes. That issue is of great concern to me and to a number of constituents who have approached me on the matter. The COSLA document, \"Teaching into the Millennium\", claims that the abolition of composite classes is a key target, with an agreed review date of 2003. As the deputy minister will appreciate, most rural schools cannot function without composite classes. I do not mean only schools with very small rolls, as that can be true in schools with more than 100 pupils. There is no suggestion in any inspector's report that composite classes fail rural children educationally.", "EditedTextHTML": "At the very least, today's debate is to be welcomed, as the current crisis in our schools cannot be glossed over. It is worthy of more consideration than was afforded by last week's statement and questions.

I thank the SNP for using its time to debate this important issue. I understand its political rationale in lodging a motion that backs teachers 100 per cent in their dispute with the Government. It is exactly the sort of motion that the Labour party would have put down under the Conservative Government.

Perhaps that is why the applause from the Labour benches was so limited, even after contributions from Labour members. As Labour has found, unreserved support for good causes is the luxury of opposition. It understands that now, although it took the late, lamented Helen Liddell to spell it out. With children present in the gallery, I could not find an appropriate quote from Helen to use. One benefit of Mrs Liddell is that she can make her successor Mr Galbraith look caring and conciliatory, at least for a few days.

The Executive has not realised that government is about taking difficult decisions—decisions that are not always popular with focus group members in those new Labour strongholds of Kelvinside and Morningside. Labour has talked tough when there has been the right audience, but has failed to follow through on its rhetoric when the political heat has become too much. It is time for that to stop and for the Executive to show some leadership on this issue.

Most classroom, principal and head teachers have to take difficult decisions every day. I note that, when the new professional leadership grade is determined, evidence is required of successful classroom practice. I wonder whether, on the basis of the examples set by the Executive, that will involve a teacher referring a difficult decision on resources in the classroom to an expensive independent inquiry. Under all the suggested definitions and criteria—professional knowledge, satisfactory staff review and contribution to rising standards—the Executive will never attain the professional leadership grade.

If that were not the case, Mr Galbraith, as the EIS has suggested, would not have sat so long on the sidelines of the negotiating process. Rather than seeking to destroy that process, he would have used his statutory power—as the third party involved in the SJNC—to become directly involved in negotiations, allowing teachers, councils and

the Government to work towards an early agreement to which they could all subscribe. I should add that I am using Ronnie Smith's words, not mine.

Despite the entrenched position adopted by the Executive, there is no reason why the existing mechanisms in the SJNC could not be used to end the dispute. As my colleague Brian Monteith has suggested, the matter should be referred to pendulum arbitration through ACAS, which would involve professional arbiters who would be ready and willing to take on this matter at no additional cost to the public, unlike the proposed costly independent inquiry.

I cannot understand why the Executive is so reluctant to take that route. The only explanation is that it does not want to be bound by the outcome of the arbitration. Indeed, that is the great benefit of the inquiry, as Mr Galbraith made clear in his response to my question last week. As with Mr Cubie's inquiry into tuition fees, the Executive gives no undertaking to implement whatever Professor McCrone and his colleagues come up with. Surely the Executive must see from the tuition fees farce that those issues will not go away, just as Mr Galbraith must understand that difficulties with teachers' pay, conditions and negotiating mechanisms will not go away. Hard decisions will have to be taken and they might as well be taken now.

On the specifics of the offer, I am staggered by the Government's blatant hypocrisy on class sizes. While seeking to give the public the impression that class sizes are to be reduced, we find in the small print that the numbers in the more teacher- demanding composite classes are to be increased from 25 to 30. There can be no clearer evidence of how shallow the Executive's commitment to education is. The individual child is irrelevant; the external gloss is everything.

I ask the deputy minister to clarify the position on composite classes. That issue is of great concern to me and to a number of constituents who have approached me on the matter. The COSLA document, \"Teaching into the Millennium\", claims that the abolition of composite classes is a key target, with an agreed review date of 2003.

As the deputy minister will appreciate, most rural schools cannot function without composite classes. I do not mean only schools with very small rolls, as that can be true in schools with more than 100 pupils. There is no suggestion in any inspector's report that composite classes fail rural children educationally.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2167E79P155C708847", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Peacock, Peter", "ID": 2167, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Peter Peacock", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Peter Peacock: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 275.0, "ContributionID": 708847, "EditedText": "I will give way for a moment.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will give way for a moment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1828E200P487C708850", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacDonald, Margo", "ID": 1828, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margo MacDonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms MacDonald: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 281.0, "ContributionID": 708850, "EditedText": "I am concerned that, although the minister and I would agree on the general approach that is needed continuously to modernise education and teaching methods, not one of the manifesto points that he mentioned will make life easier for teachers. It appears to teachers that the offer that they have been made simply adds salt to the wounds that have been inflicted by the innovations that the minister mentioned.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am concerned that, although the minister and I would agree on the general approach that is needed continuously to modernise education and teaching methods, not one of the manifesto points that he mentioned will make life easier for teachers. It appears to teachers that the offer that they have been made simply adds salt to the wounds that have been inflicted by the innovations that the minister mentioned.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C708852", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bruce Crawford: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 285.0, "ContributionID": 708852, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2167E79P155C708855", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Peacock, Peter", "ID": 2167, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Peter Peacock", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Peter Peacock: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 291.0, "ContributionID": 708855, "EditedText": "I will just finish this point. The SNP frequently argues that the Parliament does not have enough power. At the same time, it is asking the Parliament to give up power to a negotiating body for the local authorities and the trade unions.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will just finish this point. The SNP frequently argues that the Parliament does not have enough power. At the same time, it is asking the Parliament to give up power to a negotiating body for the local authorities and the trade unions.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1865E219P509C708858", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "White, Sandra", "ID": 1865, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sandra White", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Sandra White (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 297.0, "ContributionID": 708858, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2167E79P155C708861", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Peacock, Peter", "ID": 2167, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Peter Peacock", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Peter Peacock: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 303.0, "ContributionID": 708861, "EditedText": "As I said, it is clear that the employers' side has moved beyond that point. We share the view that we have to move on. The SJNC has had its day and we must find a better way forward. Some members, particularly Jamie Stone, Sylvia Jackson, Maureen Macmillan and Ian Jenkins, spoke about the need to look to the future rather than to dwell on the past. We have to find a better way forward. I welcome their support for breaking the deadlock through the committee of inquiry. Fiona McLeod, Nicola Sturgeon, David Mundell and Brian Monteith talked about composite classes. We have to be very careful about their arguments. We must remember that a significant number of pupils in Scotland, particularly those in rural areas, will always be educated in composite classes. There is no alternative, because the number of pupils relative to the size of school determines that. It is important that we do not undermine confidence in Scottish education and in the ability of composite classes to provide as strong an education as any other structure can— the evidence is that composite classes will deliver as good an education as standard classes do, if not better. Both the SNP and David Mundell for the Conservative party implied that, if the offer had been accepted, there would have been a compulsion to raise to 30 the number of pupils in every composite class in Scotland. That is simply not the case. To do so would physically not be possible in most of the country. All that is proposed is a potential maximum number, in circumstances where that would be justified. It would still be for local authorities to manage the situation, and their clear intentions are not only to phase out composite classes, but to reduce class sizes throughout Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "As I said, it is clear that the employers' side has moved beyond that point. We share the view that we have to move on. The SJNC has had its day and we must find a better way forward.

Some members, particularly Jamie Stone, Sylvia Jackson, Maureen Macmillan and Ian Jenkins, spoke about the need to look to the future rather than to dwell on the past. We have to find a better way forward. I welcome their support for breaking the deadlock through the committee of inquiry.

Fiona McLeod, Nicola Sturgeon, David Mundell and Brian Monteith talked about composite classes. We have to be very careful about their arguments. We must remember that a significant number of pupils in Scotland, particularly those in rural areas, will always be educated in composite classes. There is no alternative, because the number of pupils relative to the size of school determines that. It is important that we do not undermine confidence in Scottish education and in the ability of composite classes to provide as strong an education as any other structure can— the evidence is that composite classes will deliver as good an education as standard classes do, if not better.

Both the SNP and David Mundell for the Conservative party implied that, if the offer had been accepted, there would have been a compulsion to raise to 30 the number of pupils in every composite class in Scotland. That is simply not the case. To do so would physically not be possible in most of the country. All that is proposed is a potential maximum number, in circumstances where that would be justified. It would still be for local authorities to manage the situation, and their clear intentions are not only to phase out composite classes, but to reduce class sizes throughout Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C708862", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Monteith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 305.0, "ContributionID": 708862, "EditedText": "Will the deputy minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the deputy minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C708874", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Beattie Media", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26879, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 324.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 324.0, "ID": 26879, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 332.0, "ContributionID": 708874, "EditedText": "If there is one person to whom I do not intend to listen about the vernacular of Scotland, it is the leader of the Conservative party.", "EditedTextHTML": "If there is one person to whom I do not intend to listen about the vernacular of Scotland, it is the leader of the Conservative party.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708866", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 313.0, "ContributionID": 708866, "EditedText": "Decisions on the motion and the amendments will, of course, be taken at decision time at 5 o'clock.", "EditedTextHTML": "Decisions on the motion and the amendments will, of course, be taken at decision time at 5 o'clock.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2228E151P202C708868", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26878, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 315.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 315.0, "ID": 26878, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McCabe, Tom", "ID": 2228, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Tom McCabe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Parliament (Mr Tom McCabe): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 319.0, "ContributionID": 708868, "EditedText": "Motion S1M-175 sets out the business for next week and the provisional business for the week commencing 25 October. On the afternoon of Wednesday 6 October, the first item of business, at 2.30 pm, will be a ministerial statement and debate on the Executive's expenditure plans. That will be followed by any motions put forward by the Parliamentary Bureau in respect of Scottish statutory instruments—to be taken without debate—and by any procedural motions to be considered by the Parliament. Decision time will take place, as usual, at 5.00 pm. There will then be a members' debate on motion S1M-162, in the name of Ms Pauline McNeill, on breast cancer. On Thursday 7 October, the first item of business, at 9.30 am, will be a debate on an Executive motion on a memorandum of understanding and concordats. The memorandum of understanding sets out the basic principles that will underlie relations between the UK Government, Scottish ministers and the National Assembly for Wales. The overarching concordats will ensure uniform arrangements in the handling of international relations, European Union matters, statistics and financial assistance to industry. Immediately before lunch, I will move a business motion outlining future business. The afternoon meeting will begin with question time at 2.30 pm, which will be followed at 3.15 pm by a ministerial statement on the transfer of executive functions for railways. There will then be a debate on an Executive motion on Agenda 2000 and the development of agriculture in Scotland. That will be followed by any motions put forward by the Parliamentary Bureau in respect of SSIs— to be taken without debate—and any procedural motions to be considered by the Parliament. After decision time at 5 pm, there will be a members' debate on motion S1M-156, in the name of Mr Andrew Wilson, on criminal checks for voluntary organisations. The Parliament will be in recess during the weeks beginning 11 and 18 October. It is too early to give precise details of the business for the first week after the recess—the week beginning 25 October—as that is nearly four weeks ahead. However, it is proposed that Executive business will be considered on Wednesday afternoon and all day Thursday. Details of the matters to be discussed, including members' business, will be contained in next week's business motion. This motion also sets out the date—29 October—by which the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee must report to the lead committee, which is the Education, Culture and Sport Committee, on the Educational Development, Research and Services (Scotland) Grant Regulations 1999. I move,That the Parliament agrees: (a) the following programme of business - Wednesday 6 October 1999 2.30 pm Ministerial Statement and Debate on the Executive's Expenditure Plans followed by Parliamentary Bureau motions 5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business Debate on the subject of SM1-162 Pauline McNeill: Breast Cancer Thursday 7 October 19999.30 am Debate on an Executive Motion on a Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats 12.20 pm Business Motion 2.30 pm Question Time 3.00 pm Open Question Time followed by, no later than 3.15 pm Ministerial Statement on the Transfer of Executive Functions for Railways followed by Debate on an Executive Motion on Agenda 2000 and the Development of Agriculture in Scotland followed by Parliamentary Bureau motions 5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business Debate on the subject of SM1-156 Andrew Wilson: Criminal Checks for Voluntary Organisations Wednesday 27 October 19992.30 pm Executive Business followed by Parliamentary Bureau motions 5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business Thursday 28 October 1999 9.30 am Executive Business 12.20 pm Business Motion 2.30 pm Question Time 3.00 pm Open Question Time followed by, no later than 3.15 pm Executive Businessfollowed by Parliamentary Bureau motions5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business and (b), the following dates by which other committees should make any recommendations on instruments or draft instruments to the lead committee: the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee to report to the Education, Culture and Sport Committee by 29 October 1999 on The Educational Development, Research and Services (Scotland) Grant Regulations 1999, SSI 1999/65.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion S1M-175 sets out the business for next week and the provisional business for the week commencing 25 October. On the afternoon of Wednesday 6 October, the first item of business, at 2.30 pm, will be a ministerial statement and debate on the Executive's expenditure plans. That will be followed by any motions put forward by the Parliamentary Bureau in respect of Scottish statutory instruments—to be taken without debate—and by any procedural motions to be considered by the Parliament. Decision time will take place, as usual, at 5.00 pm. There will then be a members' debate on motion S1M-162, in the name of Ms Pauline McNeill, on breast cancer.

On Thursday 7 October, the first item of business, at 9.30 am, will be a debate on an Executive motion on a memorandum of understanding and concordats. The memorandum of understanding sets out the basic principles that will underlie relations between the UK Government, Scottish ministers and the National Assembly for Wales. The overarching concordats will ensure uniform arrangements in the handling of international relations, European Union matters, statistics and financial assistance to industry. Immediately before lunch, I will move a business motion outlining future business.

The afternoon meeting will begin with question time at 2.30 pm, which will be followed at 3.15 pm by a ministerial statement on the transfer of executive functions for railways. There will then be a debate on an Executive motion on Agenda 2000 and the development of agriculture in Scotland. That will be followed by any motions put forward by the Parliamentary Bureau in respect of SSIs— to be taken without debate—and any procedural motions to be considered by the Parliament. After decision time at 5 pm, there will be a members' debate on motion S1M-156, in the name of Mr Andrew Wilson, on criminal checks for voluntary organisations.

The Parliament will be in recess during the weeks beginning 11 and 18 October. It is too early to give precise details of the business for the first week after the recess—the week beginning 25

October—as that is nearly four weeks ahead. However, it is proposed that Executive business will be considered on Wednesday afternoon and all day Thursday. Details of the matters to be discussed, including members' business, will be contained in next week's business motion.

This motion also sets out the date—29 October—by which the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee must report to the lead committee, which is the Education, Culture and Sport Committee, on the Educational Development, Research and Services (Scotland) Grant Regulations 1999.

I move,

That the Parliament agrees: (a) the following programme of business - Wednesday 6 October 1999 2.30 pm Ministerial Statement and Debate on the Executive's Expenditure Plans followed by Parliamentary Bureau motions

5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business Debate on the subject of SM1-162 Pauline McNeill: Breast Cancer

Thursday 7 October 1999

9.30 am Debate on an Executive Motion on a Memorandum of Understanding and Concordats 12.20 pm Business Motion 2.30 pm Question Time 3.00 pm Open Question Time followed by, no later than 3.15 pm Ministerial Statement on the Transfer of Executive Functions for Railways followed by Debate on an Executive Motion on Agenda 2000 and the Development of Agriculture in Scotland followed by Parliamentary Bureau motions

5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business Debate on the subject of SM1-156 Andrew Wilson: Criminal Checks for Voluntary Organisations

Wednesday 27 October 1999

2.30 pm Executive Business followed by Parliamentary Bureau motions 5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business Thursday 28 October 1999 9.30 am Executive Business 12.20 pm Business Motion 2.30 pm Question Time 3.00 pm Open Question Time followed by, no later than 3.15 pm Executive Business

followed by Parliamentary Bureau motions

5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business and (b), the following dates by which other committees should make any recommendations on instruments or draft instruments to the lead committee: the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee to report to the Education, Culture and Sport Committee by 29 October 1999 on The Educational Development, Research and Services (Scotland) Grant Regulations 1999, SSI 1999/65.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C708884", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Beattie Media", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26879, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 324.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 324.0, "ID": 26879, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 352.0, "ContributionID": 708884, "EditedText": "I welcome the First Minister's statement. It is important that we repair the damage that the affair has done to the reputation of the Scottish Executive and, by association, to that of this Parliament. As everyone knows, mud sticks, and we have to be seen to be cleaning out the stables: the primary responsibility for that rests with the First Minister and with the Labour party in Scotland. It is a great pity that the statement has had to be dragged out of the First Minister today, in response—Interruption.—let me finish: in response to demands from Opposition parties and to mounting public concern. The First Minister tells us that the reason for that delay is that he was aware of the full text of the transcript only yesterday afternoon. He seems to have been the last to know. If he was aware of the full circumstances only yesterday afternoon, how is it that one of his many spokesmen issued a statement that was reported in The Express on Monday, which said: \"The First Minister does not believe that there has been any breach of the Ministerial Code\"? If the First Minister did not have a full text of the transcript and did not have all the evidence available to him, how come there was such a rush to judgment on his part on Sunday? It seems an odd statement for one of his spokesmen to issue. I wish to take up the point made by Mr Salmond on the pending investigation by the Standards Committee. In the First Minister's view, will the Standards Committee be entitled to examine the whole question of the ministerial code of conduct and, in the light of the requirements of the code, this whole affair? Will he give a specific answer to the diaries question, which I think Mr Salmond asked on two occasions and on which, frankly, I do not think we have had a clear answer? Will he have the diaries published, however many may be kept and in whatever format? I wish to raise two points on the text of the First Minister's statement. As regards the Deputy Minister for Communities and the Loch Lomond project, the First Minister tells us that the deputy minister accepted an invitation to attend an event relative to that project. He says: \"It would have been very odd if the local MSP had not been present at the opening of such a major development\". I accept that: it would be very odd if she had not been present. However, it would be equally very odd if the local MSP was wholly unaware of any problem with that development and apparently took no steps to investigate it or to help to resolve it. The First Minister received from Mr McConnell the assurance that he \"has had no discussions with either of the Beattie Media representatives at the meeting since the Scottish elections in May.\" In other words, Mr McConnell has assured the First Minister that he has had no discussions with Mr Kevin Reid or Mr Alex Barr. Could he please advise us what discussions, if any, Mr McConnell has had with Mr Gordon Beattie or with other members of his organisation during this period? Does the First Minister consider amendments to the ministerial code to be necessary to cover the relationship between ministers and not only lobbying firms operating as external consultancies, but the lobbying divisions that are employed inhouse by many companies and organisations?", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the First Minister's statement. It is important that we repair the damage that the affair has done to the reputation of the Scottish Executive and, by association, to that of this Parliament. As everyone knows, mud sticks, and we have to be seen to be cleaning out the stables: the primary responsibility for that rests with the First Minister and with the Labour party in Scotland.

It is a great pity that the statement has had to be dragged out of the First Minister today, in response—[Interruption.]—let me finish: in response to demands from Opposition parties and to mounting public concern.

The First Minister tells us that the reason for that delay is that he was aware of the full text of the transcript only yesterday afternoon. He seems to have been the last to know. If he was aware of the full circumstances only yesterday afternoon, how is it that one of his many spokesmen issued a statement that was reported in The Express on Monday, which said:

\"The First Minister does not believe that there has been any breach of the Ministerial Code\"?

If the First Minister did not have a full text of the transcript and did not have all the evidence available to him, how come there was such a rush to judgment on his part on Sunday? It seems an odd statement for one of his spokesmen to issue.

I wish to take up the point made by Mr Salmond on the pending investigation by the Standards Committee. In the First Minister's view, will the Standards Committee be entitled to examine the whole question of the ministerial code of conduct and, in the light of the requirements of the code, this whole affair? Will he give a specific answer to the diaries question, which I think Mr Salmond asked on two occasions and on which, frankly, I do not think we have had a clear answer? Will he have the diaries published, however many may be kept and in whatever format?

I wish to raise two points on the text of the First Minister's statement. As regards the Deputy Minister for Communities and the Loch Lomond project, the First Minister tells us that the deputy minister accepted an invitation to attend an event relative to that project. He says:

\"It would have been very odd if the local MSP had not been present at the opening of such a major development\".

I accept that: it would be very odd if she had not been present. However, it would be equally very odd if the local MSP was wholly unaware of any problem with that development and apparently took no steps to investigate it or to help to resolve it.

The First Minister received from Mr McConnell the assurance that he

\"has had no discussions with either of the Beattie Media representatives at the meeting since the Scottish elections in May.\"

In other words, Mr McConnell has assured the First Minister that he has had no discussions with Mr Kevin Reid or Mr Alex Barr. Could he please advise us what discussions, if any, Mr McConnell has had with Mr Gordon Beattie or with other members of his organisation during this period?

Does the First Minister consider amendments to the ministerial code to be necessary to cover the relationship between ministers and not only lobbying firms operating as external consultancies, but the lobbying divisions that are employed inhouse by many companies and organisations?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C708890", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Beattie Media", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26879, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 324.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 324.0, "ID": 26879, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan (Falkirk West): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 364.0, "ContributionID": 708890, "EditedText": "Does the First Minister agree that the reputation of the Scottish Parliament is far more important than the reputation of any political party, and therefore that sleazemongers must never, ever be allowed privileged access to members, irrespective of the fact that they may be relatives of Cabinet members, ex-employees of the Labour party or ex- employees of Beattie Media who have transferred to Labour's so-called second team?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the First Minister agree that the reputation of the Scottish Parliament is far more important than the reputation of any political party, and therefore that sleazemongers must never, ever be allowed privileged access to members, irrespective of the fact that they may be relatives of Cabinet members, ex-employees of the Labour party or ex- employees of Beattie Media who have transferred to Labour's so-called second team?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C708893", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Beattie Media", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26879, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 324.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 324.0, "ID": 26879, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 370.0, "ContributionID": 708893, "EditedText": "I must give an important explanation. We have asked officials to investigate the use of public relations and professional lobbying organisations by all Scottish public bodies for which we have responsibility. The investigation is not directed at Beattie Media alone, although any contracts that it has will be included in the examination. That is the right thing for us to do. I have already made it clear that we will make every effort to ensure that there is no possibility of abuse in the future. Mr Swinney will no doubt lodge questions on the matter, which, as always, the Executive will try to answer as honestly and as fully as possible.", "EditedTextHTML": "I must give an important explanation. We have asked officials to investigate the use of public relations and professional lobbying organisations by all Scottish public bodies for which we have responsibility. The investigation is not directed at Beattie Media alone, although any contracts that it has will be included in the examination. That is the right thing for us to do. I have already made it clear that we will make every effort to ensure that there is no possibility of abuse in the future. Mr Swinney will no doubt lodge questions on the matter, which, as always, the Executive will try to answer as honestly and as fully as possible.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C708894", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Beattie Media", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26879, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 324.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 324.0, "ID": 26879, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 372.0, "ContributionID": 708894, "EditedText": "Given everything that the First Minister has said today, does he agree that the message that must come out of the chamber is that there is no advantage in using lobbying companies? There are 127 members of the Scottish Parliament. MEMBERS: \"There are 129.\" Sorry. There are 129 MSPs. I was excluding one or two of them. There are 72 Scottish members of Parliament at Westminster. Surely the best way for people to approach ministers is through the people who have been elected.", "EditedTextHTML": "Given everything that the First Minister has said today, does he agree that the message that must come out of the chamber is that there is no advantage in using lobbying companies? There are 127 members of the Scottish Parliament. [MEMBERS: \"There are 129.\"] Sorry. There are 129 MSPs. I was excluding one or two of them. There are 72 Scottish members of Parliament at Westminster. Surely the best way for people to approach ministers is through the people who have been elected.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C708903", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26880, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26881, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 380.0, "QuestionHeading": "Islands Needs Allowance", "QuestionHeadingID": 26882, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 383.0, "DisplayOrder": 383.0, "ID": 26882, "ParentID": 26881 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister (Donald Dewar) rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 392.0, "ContributionID": 708903, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708906", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26880, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26881, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 380.0, "QuestionHeading": "Islands Needs Allowance", "QuestionHeadingID": 26882, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 383.0, "DisplayOrder": 383.0, "ID": 26882, "ParentID": 26881 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 398.0, "ContributionID": 708906, "EditedText": "In that case, I am happy to call you.", "EditedTextHTML": "In that case, I am happy to call you.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1811E172P455C708910", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26880, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26881, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 380.0, "QuestionHeading": "Accident and Emergency Units", "QuestionHeadingID": 26883, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 406.0, "DisplayOrder": 406.0, "ID": 26883, "ParentID": 26881 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ullrich, Kay", "ID": 1811, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kay Ullrich", "SpeakerDisplayName": "2. Kay Ullrich (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 407.0, "ContributionID": 708910, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it can give an assurance that plans are in place to ensure that there is no repeat during the coming Christmas and new year period of the situation experienced in accident and emergency units over the last Christmas and new year period. (S1O-379) The Deputy Minister for Community Care (Iain Gray): Every winter places additional demands on the NHS and I pay tribute to the NHS staff who respond to those peaks in demand year in, year out. We require all parts of the NHS in Scotland to prepare plans for the coming months. Officials are currently visiting all health boards and trusts to ensure that adequate local arrangements are in place. Members will wish to note that agreement has been reached with staff in the NHS on pay for the millennium period, which will ensure that our health services are able to operate effectively throughout the Christmas and new year period.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it can give an assurance that plans are in place to ensure that there is no repeat during the coming Christmas and new year period of the situation experienced in accident and emergency units over the last Christmas and new year period. (S1O-379) The Deputy Minister for Community Care (Iain Gray): Every winter places additional demands on the NHS and I pay tribute to the NHS staff who respond to those peaks in demand year in, year out. We require all parts of the NHS in Scotland to prepare plans for the coming months. Officials are currently visiting all health boards and trusts to ensure that adequate local arrangements are in place.

Members will wish to note that agreement has been reached with staff in the NHS on pay for the millennium period, which will ensure that our health services are able to operate effectively throughout the Christmas and new year period.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1811E172P455C708911", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26880, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26881, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 380.0, "QuestionHeading": "Accident and Emergency Units", "QuestionHeadingID": 26883, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 406.0, "DisplayOrder": 406.0, "ID": 26883, "ParentID": 26881 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ullrich, Kay", "ID": 1811, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kay Ullrich", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Kay Ullrich: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 409.0, "ContributionID": 708911, "EditedText": "Will the minister comment on the current admission problems in Scottish hospitals? Will he tell us why some hospitals are already operating a non-admissions policy for elective surgery? Why, for example, in the past two weeks, has Edinburgh royal infirmary been on red alert and unable to accept any admissions because no beds are available? If that is happening in September, what will be the state of affairs come the so-called peak period of Christmas and new year?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister comment on the current admission problems in Scottish hospitals? Will he tell us why some hospitals are already operating a non-admissions policy for elective surgery? Why, for example, in the past two weeks, has Edinburgh royal infirmary been on red alert and unable to accept any admissions because no beds are available? If that is happening in September, what will be the state of affairs come the so-called peak period of Christmas and new year?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1811E172P455C708913", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26880, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26881, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 380.0, "QuestionHeading": "Accident and Emergency Units", "QuestionHeadingID": 26883, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 406.0, "DisplayOrder": 406.0, "ID": 26883, "ParentID": 26881 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ullrich, Kay", "ID": 1811, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kay Ullrich", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Kay Ullrich: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 413.0, "ContributionID": 708913, "EditedText": "As I said, if this is happening now—", "EditedTextHTML": "As I said, if this is happening now—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1906E278P355C708915", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26880, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26881, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 380.0, "QuestionHeading": "Students Awards Agency", "QuestionHeadingID": 26884, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 417.0, "DisplayOrder": 417.0, "ID": 26884, "ParentID": 26881 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Welsh, Andrew", "ID": 1906, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Angus" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Welsh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "3. Mr Andrew Welsh (Angus) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 418.0, "ContributionID": 708915, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what the current backlog for processing applications with the Student Awards Agency for Scotland is and when it is expected to be cleared. (S1O-380) The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning (Nicol Stephen): As at 27 September, the agency had received just under 102,000 applications for student support and had processed or otherwise actioned some 89,000— 88 per cent—of them. I would like to give an exact date by which the 13,000 or so outstanding applications will be processed, but some are late and in other cases the full information has only just been received. Thirteen thousand applications represent about 14 days' work. The only assurance I can give is that the remaining cases will be dealt with within the agency's target time of 28 days of receipt.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what the current backlog for processing applications with the Student Awards Agency for Scotland is and when it is expected to be cleared. (S1O-380) The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning (Nicol Stephen): As at 27 September, the agency had received just under 102,000 applications for student support and had processed or otherwise actioned some 89,000— 88 per cent—of them. I would like to give an exact date by which the 13,000 or so outstanding applications will be processed, but some are late and in other cases the full information has only just been received. Thirteen thousand applications represent about 14 days' work. The only assurance I can give is that the remaining cases will be dealt with within the agency's target time of 28 days of receipt.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2154E194P299C708917", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26880, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26881, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 380.0, "QuestionHeading": "Students Awards Agency", "QuestionHeadingID": 26884, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 417.0, "DisplayOrder": 417.0, "ID": 26884, "ParentID": 26881 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stephen, Nicol", "ID": 2154, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Nicol Stephen", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicol Stephen: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 422.0, "ContributionID": 708917, "EditedText": "I give every assurance that action will be taken to process the outstanding backlog as quickly as possible. Where there are particular cases of hardship, temporary funding can be given by institutions from their access funds. I share Andrew Welsh's concern and everything will be done to process the 13,000 outstanding applications as quickly as possible.", "EditedTextHTML": "I give every assurance that action will be taken to process the outstanding backlog as quickly as possible. Where there are particular cases of hardship, temporary funding can be given by institutions from their access funds. I share Andrew Welsh's concern and everything will be done to process the 13,000 outstanding applications as quickly as possible.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C708926", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26880, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26881, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 380.0, "QuestionHeading": "Local Enterprise Companies", "QuestionHeadingID": 26887, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 438.0, "DisplayOrder": 438.0, "ID": 26887, "ParentID": 26881 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 443.0, "ContributionID": 708926, "EditedText": "I have always believed that Parliaments are serious forums for serious business. In view of the seriousness of the issue that Mr Neil has raised, it would have been courteous of him to inform me of his question. I would like to think that the matter was raised out of concern about the operation of enterprise companies. Suffice to say, I will examine the matters that he raised.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have always believed that Parliaments are serious forums for serious business. In view of the seriousness of the issue that Mr Neil has raised, it would have been courteous of him to inform me of his question. I would like to think that the matter was raised out of concern about the operation of enterprise companies. Suffice to say, I will examine the matters that he raised.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C708929", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26880, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26881, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 380.0, "QuestionHeading": "Local Government Funding", "QuestionHeadingID": 26888, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 445.0, "DisplayOrder": 445.0, "ID": 26888, "ParentID": 26881 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 450.0, "ContributionID": 708929, "EditedText": "Aberdeenshire and Perth and Kinross were spoken to last year because they had exceeded the guideline figures that they were well aware of in advance. We received good submissions from them in the summer asking us to consider that position. I will respond to them within the next week or so to inform them of my decision on next year's budgets.", "EditedTextHTML": "Aberdeenshire and Perth and Kinross were spoken to last year because they had exceeded the guideline figures that they were well aware of in advance. We received good submissions from them in the summer asking us to consider that position. I will respond to them within the next week or so to inform them of my decision on next year's budgets.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708932", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26880, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26881, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 380.0, "QuestionHeading": "Housing", "QuestionHeadingID": 26889, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 452.0, "DisplayOrder": 452.0, "ID": 26889, "ParentID": 26881 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 457.0, "ContributionID": 708932, "EditedText": "No, you cannot say anything to the minister: you can ask a question.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, you cannot say anything to the minister: you can ask a question.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1882E175P456C708937", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26880, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26881, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 380.0, "QuestionHeading": "East Ayrshire Council", "QuestionHeadingID": 26890, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 463.0, "DisplayOrder": 463.0, "ID": 26890, "ParentID": 26881 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ingram, Adam", "ID": 1882, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Adam Ingram", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Ingram: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 468.0, "ContributionID": 708937, "EditedText": "Is not the minister aware that the financial mismanagement, which prompted the intervention of the Accounts Commission, is continuing, to the point where council services and jobs are being destroyed? He gives the distinct impression of sitting on his hands while that is going on.", "EditedTextHTML": "Is not the minister aware that the financial mismanagement, which prompted the intervention of the Accounts Commission, is continuing, to the point where council services and jobs are being destroyed? He gives the distinct impression of sitting on his hands while that is going on.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1882E175P456C708939", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26880, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26881, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 380.0, "QuestionHeading": "East Ayrshire Council", "QuestionHeadingID": 26890, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 463.0, "DisplayOrder": 463.0, "ID": 26890, "ParentID": 26881 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ingram, Adam", "ID": 1882, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Adam Ingram", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Ingram: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 472.0, "ContributionID": 708939, "EditedText": "Will Mr McAveety take any responsibility for what is happening in East Ayrshire Council?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr McAveety take any responsibility for what is happening in East Ayrshire Council?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2066E64P88C708942", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26880, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26881, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 380.0, "QuestionHeading": "Fish Farming", "QuestionHeadingID": 26891, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 476.0, "DisplayOrder": 476.0, "ID": 26891, "ParentID": 26881 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McGrigor, Jamie", "ID": 2066, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie McGrigor", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McGrigor: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 479.0, "ContributionID": 708942, "EditedText": "Does the minister accept and understand the value of wild salmon and sea trout stocks to the overall Scottish rural economy, which in 1997 was estimated by the Nixon task force report to be in excess of £70 million annually?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the minister accept and understand the value of wild salmon and sea trout stocks to the overall Scottish rural economy, which in 1997 was estimated by the Nixon task force report to be in excess of £70 million annually?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1986E53P206C708952", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26880, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26881, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 380.0, "QuestionHeading": "Road Safety", "QuestionHeadingID": 26894, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 499.0, "DisplayOrder": 499.0, "ID": 26894, "ParentID": 26881 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeil, Duncan", "ID": 1986, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Greenock and Inverclyde" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan McNeil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McNeil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 502.0, "ContributionID": 708952, "EditedText": "Is the minister aware that 48 accidents were reported on that stretch of road between 1 January 1998 and 31 July 1999, including two fatalities? Is he also aware that the pedestrian bridges that are to be built along the road, at a cost of £200,000 each, have been described by the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents as an expensive second-class alternative to reducing the speed limit? Will he assure me that a representative of the appropriate department will meet the parties concerned to discuss the problem?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is the minister aware that 48 accidents were reported on that stretch of road between 1 January 1998 and 31 July 1999, including two fatalities? Is he also aware that the pedestrian bridges that are to be built along the road, at a cost of £200,000 each, have been described by the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents as an expensive second-class alternative to reducing the speed limit? Will he assure me that a representative of the appropriate department will meet the parties concerned to discuss the problem?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1889E118P162C708961", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26880, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26881, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 380.0, "QuestionHeading": "Driving Test Centres", "QuestionHeadingID": 26896, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 517.0, "DisplayOrder": 517.0, "ID": 26896, "ParentID": 26881 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morrison, Mr Alasdair", "ID": 1889, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Western Isles" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morrison", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Morrison: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 522.0, "ContributionID": 708961, "EditedText": "The issues relating to the closure of centres will be subject to legitimate and comprehensive consultation at a local level. The Executive will be consulted on any issue relating to any of those centres.", "EditedTextHTML": "The issues relating to the closure of centres will be subject to legitimate and

comprehensive consultation at a local level. The Executive will be consulted on any issue relating to any of those centres.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1926E190P479C708962", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26880, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26881, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 380.0, "QuestionHeading": "Aberdeen City Council", "QuestionHeadingID": 26897, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 524.0, "DisplayOrder": 524.0, "ID": 26897, "ParentID": 26881 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Adam, Brian", "ID": 1926, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Adam", "SpeakerDisplayName": "17. Brian Adam (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 525.0, "ContributionID": 708962, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will congratulate Aberdeen City Council on its recent success in the world in bloom competition. (S1O396)", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will congratulate Aberdeen City Council on its recent success in the world in bloom competition. (S1O396)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1805E13P109C708966", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26880, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26881, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 380.0, "QuestionHeading": "Bus Services", "QuestionHeadingID": 26898, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 533.0, "DisplayOrder": 533.0, "ID": 26898, "ParentID": 26881 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Whitefield, Karen", "ID": 1805, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Airdrie and Shotts" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Karen Whitefield", "SpeakerDisplayName": "18. Karen Whitefield (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 534.0, "ContributionID": 708966, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what measures it is taking to ensure that a comprehensive bus service is available to all areas of Scotland, with particular regard to rural and village communities. (S1O-397) The Deputy Minister for Highlands and Islands and Gaelic (Mr Alasdair Morrison): Buses can provide a lifeline for rural communities. We are providing £3.5 million each year to local authorities to improve public transport services in rural areas. Later this session, we will introduce a transport bill that proposes a framework for the improvement of bus services throughout Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what measures it is taking to ensure that a comprehensive bus service is available to all areas of Scotland, with particular regard to rural and village communities. (S1O-397) The Deputy Minister for Highlands and Islands and Gaelic (Mr Alasdair Morrison): Buses can provide a lifeline for rural communities. We are providing £3.5 million each year to local authorities to improve public transport services in rural areas. Later this session, we will introduce a transport bill that proposes a framework for the improvement of bus services throughout Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1805E13P109C708967", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26880, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26881, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 380.0, "QuestionHeading": "Bus Services", "QuestionHeadingID": 26898, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 533.0, "DisplayOrder": 533.0, "ID": 26898, "ParentID": 26881 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Whitefield, Karen", "ID": 1805, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Airdrie and Shotts" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Karen Whitefield", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Karen Whitefield: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 536.0, "ContributionID": 708967, "EditedText": "I welcome the minister's answer. Does he agree that the provision of a comprehensive bus service, especially to outlying villages, is a vital part of a sustainable and environmentally friendly transport strategy?", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the minister's answer. Does he agree that the provision of a comprehensive bus service, especially to outlying villages, is a vital part of a sustainable and environmentally friendly transport strategy?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2056E57P84C708973", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26880, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26881, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 380.0, "QuestionHeading": "Levi Strauss Co", "QuestionHeadingID": 26900, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 547.0, "DisplayOrder": 547.0, "ID": 26900, "ParentID": 26881 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James", "ID": 2056, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "James Douglas-Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Lord James Douglas-Hamilton: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 550.0, "ContributionID": 708973, "EditedText": "In view of the welcome news that Motorola will provide many more jobs in the vicinity, will the minister do everything in his power to ensure that the necessary retraining and training programmes are put in place, with one-to-one counselling for the work force?", "EditedTextHTML": "In view of the welcome news that Motorola will provide many more jobs in the vicinity, will the minister do everything in his power to ensure that the necessary retraining and training programmes are put in place, with one-to-one counselling for the work force?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C708975", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26901, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 554.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26902, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 555.0, "QuestionHeading": "Chancellor of the Exchequer (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26903, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 556.0, "DisplayOrder": 556.0, "ID": 26903, "ParentID": 26902 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "1. Mr Alex Salmond (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 557.0, "ContributionID": 708975, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive when the First Minister last met the Chancellor of the Exchequer and what subjects were discussed. (S1O-400) The First Minister (Donald Dewar): That is becoming the equivalent of the question about engagements for today. Mr David McLetchie asked a remarkably similar question last week. I suppose it could be telepathy and further evidence of a rather unlikely alliance Laughter. I can only recommend to Mr Salmond the answer I gave to Mr McLetchie last Thursday.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive when the First Minister last met the Chancellor of the Exchequer and what subjects were discussed. (S1O-400) The First Minister (Donald Dewar): That is becoming the equivalent of the question about engagements for today. Mr David McLetchie asked a remarkably similar question last week. I suppose it could be telepathy and further evidence of a rather unlikely alliance [Laughter.] I can only recommend to Mr Salmond the answer I gave to Mr McLetchie last Thursday.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C708976", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26901, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 554.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26902, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 555.0, "QuestionHeading": "Chancellor of the Exchequer (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26903, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 556.0, "DisplayOrder": 556.0, "ID": 26903, "ParentID": 26902 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 559.0, "ContributionID": 708976, "EditedText": "Only yesterday, my colleagues pointed out the First Minister's record on voting with the Conservative party. Can the First Minister arrange a further meeting with the Chancellor of the Exchequer to look at the question of the fuel price escalator? Does he recall telling me on 1 February that, in his opinion, oil prices would be between $10 and $12 a barrel for the foreseeable future? Now that oil prices are double that, with clear implications for the price of petrol and fuel, is it not time that the First Minister arranges a meeting with the chancellor, to lobby to come off the fuel price escalator as soon as possible?", "EditedTextHTML": "Only yesterday, my colleagues pointed out the First Minister's record on voting with the Conservative party.

Can the First Minister arrange a further meeting with the Chancellor of the Exchequer to look at the question of the fuel price escalator? Does he recall telling me on 1 February that, in his opinion, oil prices would be between $10 and $12 a barrel for the foreseeable future? Now that oil prices are double that, with clear implications for the price of petrol and fuel, is it not time that the First Minister arranges a meeting with the chancellor, to lobby to come off the fuel price escalator as soon as possible?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C708977", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26901, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 554.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26902, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 555.0, "QuestionHeading": "Chancellor of the Exchequer (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26903, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 556.0, "DisplayOrder": 556.0, "ID": 26903, "ParentID": 26902 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 561.0, "ContributionID": 708977, "EditedText": "I hope that Mr Salmond is not complaining about the rise in the price of oil. If so, perhaps he could take his case to Aberdeen and see what kind of reception he gets. I can assure him that there are constant discussions between a range of United Kingdom ministers and me. In the course of those discussions, it is self- evident that Scotland's interests are being fully represented. Mr Salmond will accept that the chancellor is well acquainted with Scotland's problems and its opportunities and advantages.", "EditedTextHTML": "I hope that Mr Salmond is not complaining about the rise in the price of oil. If so, perhaps he could take his case to Aberdeen and see what kind of reception he gets. I can assure him that there are constant discussions between a range of United Kingdom ministers and me. In the course of those discussions, it is self- evident that Scotland's interests are being fully represented. Mr Salmond will accept that the chancellor is well acquainted with Scotland's problems and its opportunities and advantages.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C708980", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26901, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 554.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26902, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 555.0, "QuestionHeading": "Chancellor of the Exchequer (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26903, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 556.0, "DisplayOrder": 556.0, "ID": 26903, "ParentID": 26902 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 567.0, "ContributionID": 708980, "EditedText": "When people complain about cheap political points, it is usually because they are losing. Laughter. I suggest that the First Minister gets together with his close colleague the Secretary of State for Scotland, perhaps over a cup of tea, and agrees on a concordat jointly to lobby the Chancellor of the Exchequer about fuel prices in Scotland and the damage that the escalator is doing to the Scottish economy. Will the First Minister agree to get together with John Reid and lobby the chancellor on that point?", "EditedTextHTML": "When people complain about cheap political points, it is usually because they are losing. [Laughter.] I suggest that the First Minister gets together with his close colleague the Secretary of State for Scotland, perhaps over a cup of tea, and agrees on a concordat jointly to lobby the Chancellor of the Exchequer about fuel prices in Scotland and the damage that the escalator is doing to the Scottish economy. Will the First Minister agree to get together with John Reid and lobby the chancellor on that point?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C708981", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26901, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 554.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26902, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 555.0, "QuestionHeading": "Chancellor of the Exchequer (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26903, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 556.0, "DisplayOrder": 556.0, "ID": 26903, "ParentID": 26902 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 569.0, "ContributionID": 708981, "EditedText": "I do not think that there is any reason for me to agree to get together with the secretary of state. I have seen him several times this week and am seeing him several times more. Laughter. The results of the Government's stewardship in Scotland that I see are the lowest unemployment for 25 years, inflation at under 2 per cent, more people employed now than were two years ago, and a modernising of our economy that is instanced by Motorola's announcement this morning. That is a genuine vote of confidence, which gives us every ground for optimism in the future. I would like to think that Mr Salmond recognises those facts occasionally.", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not think that there is any reason for me to agree to get together with the secretary of state. I have seen him several times this week and am seeing him several times more. [Laughter.]

The results of the Government's stewardship in Scotland that I see are the lowest unemployment for 25 years, inflation at under 2 per cent, more people employed now than were two years ago, and a modernising of our economy that is instanced by Motorola's announcement this morning. That is a genuine vote of confidence, which gives us every ground for optimism in the future. I would like to think that Mr Salmond recognises those facts occasionally.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C708985", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26901, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 554.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26902, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 555.0, "QuestionHeading": "Freedom of Information", "QuestionHeadingID": 26904, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 571.0, "DisplayOrder": 571.0, "ID": 26904, "ParentID": 26902 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 578.0, "ContributionID": 708985, "EditedText": "The advice is exempt because the minister chooses to make it exempt. I am indeed familiar with that caveat. Of course, that illustrates that the commitment to freedom of information is skin-deep. The minister will publish when it suits him to do so, and he will suppress when it does not. Does the Deputy First Minister not accept that the failure to publish the secret report undermines confidence in the decision-making process? Will he give a categorical assurance that the decision that was taken in this case was taken on clinical grounds alone?", "EditedTextHTML": "The advice is exempt because the minister chooses to make it exempt. I am indeed familiar with that caveat. Of course, that illustrates that the commitment to freedom of information is skin-deep. The minister will publish when it suits him to do so, and he will suppress when it does not.

Does the Deputy First Minister not accept that the failure to publish the secret report undermines confidence in the decision-making process? Will he give a categorical assurance that the decision that was taken in this case was taken on clinical grounds alone?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1828E200P487C708987", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26901, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 554.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26902, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 555.0, "QuestionHeading": "Freedom of Information", "QuestionHeadingID": 26904, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 571.0, "DisplayOrder": 571.0, "ID": 26904, "ParentID": 26902 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacDonald, Margo", "ID": 1828, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margo MacDonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Margo MacDonald (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 582.0, "ContributionID": 708987, "EditedText": "Will the minister think again about what should be reserved information? I have it on the best possible authority that the three independent reports to which he referred all recommended Edinburgh royal. We do not question the clinical assessment that there is a need for only one centre of excellence, but we question the minister's refusal to make the reports public. There is no issue of commercial confidentiality in this case or anything like that. One of my colleagues from the Health and Community Care Committee, Margaret Smith, has added her voice to mine, and those of the BMA and David McLetchie, in asking to see the reports. In the spirit of the freedom of information legislation that will be introduced, can we see those reports now?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister think again about what should be reserved information? I have it on the best possible authority that the three independent reports to which he referred all recommended Edinburgh royal. We do not question the clinical assessment that there is a need for only one centre of excellence, but we question the minister's refusal to make the reports public. There is no issue of commercial confidentiality in this case or anything like that. One of my colleagues from the Health and Community Care Committee, Margaret Smith, has added her voice to mine, and those of the BMA and David McLetchie, in asking to see the reports. In the spirit of the freedom of information legislation that will be introduced, can we see those reports now?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1901E57P277C708989", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26901, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 554.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26902, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 555.0, "QuestionHeading": "Land Reform", "QuestionHeadingID": 26905, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 586.0, "DisplayOrder": 586.0, "ID": 26905, "ParentID": 26902 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Allan", "ID": 1901, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Cunninghame North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Allan Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "3. Allan Wilson (Cunninghame North) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 587.0, "ContributionID": 708989, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has to reform crofting legislation to encourage absentee crofters to release land for potential usage by fellow crofters. (S1O-413)", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has to reform crofting legislation to encourage absentee crofters to release land for potential usage by fellow crofters. (S1O-413)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C708990", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26901, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 554.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26902, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 555.0, "QuestionHeading": "Land Reform", "QuestionHeadingID": 26905, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 586.0, "DisplayOrder": 586.0, "ID": 26905, "ParentID": 26902 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Rural Affairs (Ross Finnie): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 589.0, "ContributionID": 708990, "EditedText": "Our plans for reformed crofting legislation do not include that subject. Existing legislation gives the Crofters Commission adequate powers to remove absentee croft tenants from their crofts and to control the re-letting of those crofts.", "EditedTextHTML": "Our plans for reformed crofting legislation do not include that subject. Existing legislation gives the Crofters Commission adequate powers to remove absentee croft tenants from their crofts and to control the re-letting of those crofts.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C708994", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26901, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 554.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26902, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 555.0, "QuestionHeading": "Land Reform", "QuestionHeadingID": 26905, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 586.0, "DisplayOrder": 586.0, "ID": 26905, "ParentID": 26902 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ross Finnie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 597.0, "ContributionID": 708994, "EditedText": "There are no firm proposals for an outgoers scheme, as that would principally rely on financial instruments. The thrust of any crofting legislation that we introduce will be designed to amend legislation to enable greater entry—and new entry—to crofts and crofting.", "EditedTextHTML": "There are no firm proposals for an outgoers scheme, as that would principally rely on financial instruments. The thrust of any crofting legislation that we introduce will be designed to amend legislation to enable greater entry—and new entry—to crofts and crofting.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C708999", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26906, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 605.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 605.0, "ID": 26906, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Finance (Mr Jack McConnell): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 609.0, "ContributionID": 708999, "EditedText": "This is an important day for the Scottish Parliament and an important debate for all of us who were elected on 6 May 1999 to serve the people of Scotland. It is with great pride that I move this motion to approve the general principles of the Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill. I first exercised my right to vote as an 18-year-old in the devolution referendum of 1979. I remember to this day the hours spent before the referendum debating, campaigning and putting up posters around Stirling and elsewhere in Scotland. I remember even more clearly the deep sense of disappointment when it became clear that the Scottish Assembly, as it would have been known, was not to happen. For 20 years, Scots from all corners of our nation and from all walks of life have campaigned and worked tirelessly to create the Parliament that we sit in today. During those 20 years, we all increasingly dreamt of a new Parliament that embodied a new politics and new style of government for the good of the people of Scotland and for the future of the United Kingdom. The principles which will underpin that new politics include honesty, transparency and an inclusive approach to consultation and political debate. I wholeheartedly endorse those principles and, as Minister for Finance, I will work tirelessly to ensure that they underpin our financial decision making and our accounting. As Gladstone said: \"Finance is, as it were, the stomach of the country from which all the other organs take their tone.\"", "EditedTextHTML": "This is an important day for the Scottish Parliament and an important debate for all of us who were elected on 6 May 1999 to serve the people of Scotland. It is with great pride that I move this motion to approve the general principles of the Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill.

I first exercised my right to vote as an 18-year-old in the devolution referendum of 1979. I remember to this day the hours spent before the referendum debating, campaigning and putting up posters around Stirling and elsewhere in Scotland. I remember even more clearly the deep sense of disappointment when it became clear that the Scottish Assembly, as it would have been known, was not to happen.

For 20 years, Scots from all corners of our nation and from all walks of life have campaigned and worked tirelessly to create the Parliament that we sit in today. During those 20 years, we all increasingly dreamt of a new Parliament that embodied a new politics and new style of government for the good of the people of Scotland and for the future of the United Kingdom.

The principles which will underpin that new politics include honesty, transparency and an inclusive approach to consultation and political debate. I wholeheartedly endorse those principles and, as Minister for Finance, I will work tirelessly to ensure that they underpin our financial decision making and our accounting. As Gladstone said:

\"Finance is, as it were, the stomach of the country from which all the other organs take their tone.\"

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C709011", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26906, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 605.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 605.0, "ID": 26906, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Goldie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 635.0, "ContributionID": 709011, "EditedText": "It happens that none of them is on these benches for which I specifically said that I speak, and where, again as I said, Mr Wilson will find little sympathy for the concept of independence.", "EditedTextHTML": "It happens that none of them is on these benches for which I specifically said that I speak, and where, again as I said, Mr Wilson will find little sympathy for the concept of independence.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C709003", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26906, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 605.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 605.0, "ID": 26906, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 617.0, "ContributionID": 709003, "EditedText": "As we have discussed, it would be inappropriate to do what Mr Swinney suggests in this legislation. It is also right to point out that the bill will allow for the Auditor General to carry out value-for-money studies, even into local enterprise companies. There is a case for continuing to monitor the situation and for Mr Swinney's committee to consider the matter in the months and years ahead.The bill will transfer some of the Accounts Commission's responsibilities to the Auditor General and Audit Scotland. However, the commission will retain its critical role in ensuring that public money is properly spent. The Accounts Commission will retain control of local authority audit to help ensure that the unique status of local authorities is respected. The same cannot be said of health bodies, currently audited by the commission.", "EditedTextHTML": "As we have discussed, it would be inappropriate to do what Mr Swinney suggests in this legislation. It is also right to point out that the bill will allow for the Auditor General to carry out value-for-money studies, even into local enterprise companies. There is a case for continuing to monitor the situation and for Mr Swinney's committee to consider the matter in the

months and years ahead.

The bill will transfer some of the Accounts Commission's responsibilities to the Auditor General and Audit Scotland. However, the commission will retain its critical role in ensuring that public money is properly spent.

The Accounts Commission will retain control of local authority audit to help ensure that the unique status of local authorities is respected. The same cannot be said of health bodies, currently audited by the commission.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C709008", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26906, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 605.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 605.0, "ID": 26906, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 628.0, "ContributionID": 709008, "EditedText": "The plans are a step forward in terms of the broad structure of budget lines. However, as I said, in terms of building up reserves, I have yet to be convinced that the plans are enough. I hope that that will come out during the debate. At the moment, I want to focus on accountability. The fact that the Executive is not responsible for raising the money that it spends is bad for democracy and for accountability. It is not good for prudence in the longer term. One of the most substantial points for debate in our financial matters is the remarkable fact that the entire Scottish budget, as determined by the Barnett formula, comes in the first instance not to Mr McConnell and to this Parliament, but to Dr John Reid at the Scotland Office. It is up to Dr Reid to decide what amount he keeps back for his own activity. It is constitutionally and politically unsustainable for that to continue. Things are fine at the moment because the First Minister and the Secretary of State for Scotland enjoy such a close, warm and harmonious relationship. They therefore know how to box clever with the nation's finances. However, the settlement has remarkable potential for dispute. Imagine if the secretary of state were Michael Forsyth or—God forbid—Brian Wilson. The scope that the present settlement gives them is worrying. I suspect that the gloves may come off. In the absence of a change to the Scotland Act 1998, little can be done. However, it is imperative that the Executive makes approaches to the Scotland Office to ensure that the Parliament can set a precedent for positive dialogue with the secretary of state and the Scotland Office about the basis of his decision to hold back as much as he is from the Scottish budget. The cleanest and simplest approach would be to secure a more responsible and modern settlement, where the Parliament is responsible for raising the revenue that it spends and for ensuring that it is spent wisely. That would make us more democratically accountable to the people who elected us. We could then subvent funds to London for centrally provided services. There need be no debate about who subsidises whom and the system would have the advantage of making the value for money of those services more apparent. I must point out that no best value test is applied to UK central departments. The approach already carries the support of four parties in this chamber. It should carry the support of the Liberal Democrats, if they still believe in more progressive federalism. I have no doubt that it would also find some support among those former members of Scottish Labour Action who sit on the Executive benches and among some of the Labour party's back benchers. In passing, I also point out that it is also the editorial position of Scotland on Sunday and The Scotsman, which means that it must be right. It is critical that we do not lose sight of the bigger picture of the structural reforms within the settlement that would allow us a better financial settlement for Scotland. As far as the rearrangement of the deckchairs goes, this bill has done a job well and quickly within the constraints that have been laid down. I hope that we will improve it as it goes through the process. I plead with all members of the Parliament to think laterally about how the Parliament should grow, how we can improve the settlement and how we can improve the strength of the Parliament to deliver the best for the people.", "EditedTextHTML": "The plans are a step forward in terms of the broad structure of budget lines. However, as I said, in terms of building up reserves, I have yet to be convinced that the plans are enough. I hope that that will come out during the debate. At the moment, I want to focus on accountability. The fact that the Executive is not responsible for raising the money that it spends is bad for democracy and for accountability. It is not good for prudence in the longer term.

One of the most substantial points for debate in our financial matters is the remarkable fact that the entire Scottish budget, as determined by the Barnett formula, comes in the first instance not to Mr McConnell and to this Parliament, but to Dr John Reid at the Scotland Office. It is up to Dr Reid to decide what amount he keeps back for his own activity.

It is constitutionally and politically unsustainable for that to continue. Things are fine at the moment because the First Minister and the Secretary of State for Scotland enjoy such a close, warm and harmonious relationship. They therefore know how to box clever with the nation's finances. However, the settlement has remarkable potential for dispute. Imagine if the secretary of state were Michael Forsyth or—God forbid—Brian Wilson. The scope that the present settlement gives them is worrying. I suspect that the gloves may come off.

In the absence of a change to the Scotland Act 1998, little can be done. However, it is imperative that the Executive makes approaches to the Scotland Office to ensure that the Parliament can set a precedent for positive dialogue with the secretary of state and the Scotland Office about the basis of his decision to hold back as much as he is from the Scottish budget.

The cleanest and simplest approach would be to secure a more responsible and modern settlement, where the Parliament is responsible for raising the revenue that it spends and for ensuring that it is spent wisely. That would make us more democratically accountable to the people who elected us. We could then subvent funds to London for centrally provided services. There need be no debate about who subsidises whom and the system would have the advantage of making the value for money of those services more apparent. I must point out that no best value test is applied to UK central departments.

The approach already carries the support of four parties in this chamber. It should carry the support of the Liberal Democrats, if they still believe in more progressive federalism. I have no doubt that it would also find some support among those former members of Scottish Labour Action who sit on the Executive benches and among some of the Labour party's back benchers. In passing, I also point out that it is also the editorial position of Scotland on Sunday and The Scotsman, which means that it must be right.

It is critical that we do not lose sight of the bigger picture of the structural reforms within the settlement that would allow us a better financial settlement for Scotland. As far as the rearrangement of the deckchairs goes, this bill has done a job well and quickly within the constraints that have been laid down. I hope that we will improve it as it goes through the process. I plead with all members of the Parliament to think laterally about how the Parliament should grow, how we can improve the settlement and how we can improve the strength of the Parliament to deliver the best for the people.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C709013", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26906, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 605.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 605.0, "ID": 26906, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Goldie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 639.0, "ContributionID": 709013, "EditedText": "I shall refrain from comment. Mr Wilson made an important point about the constitutional arrangement. Now that there is a Parliament in Scotland, we have a distinctly altered relationship with the Secretary of State for Scotland and the United Kingdom Cabinet. As long as we have a strong Secretary of State for Scotland I have some confidence that Scotland will have a strong figure batting for it in the Treasury. I do not share Mr Wilson's apprehension that a Secretary of State for Scotland would try to cream off significant sums of money because the devolution settlement makes it difficult to see where he would cream them off to. Given Dr Reid's recent comments at the Labour party conference in Bournemouth that he was less than confident about the continuation of the office of secretary of state, will the minister clarify how the budget on which this Parliament depends and which is vital for Scotland will be negotiated and who will be responsible for that negotiation within the United Kingdom Cabinet? Is the minister confident that he will not be left—as Mr Wilson has suggested—a hapless puppet with a hand stretched out, waiting for something to happen? The Scottish Conservatives endorse the principles of the bill and we are minded to cooperate with its swift passage.", "EditedTextHTML": "I shall refrain from comment. Mr Wilson made an important point about the constitutional arrangement. Now that there is a Parliament in Scotland, we have a distinctly altered relationship with the Secretary of State for Scotland and the United Kingdom Cabinet. As long as we have a strong Secretary of State for Scotland I have some confidence that Scotland will have a strong figure batting for it in the Treasury.

I do not share Mr Wilson's apprehension that a Secretary of State for Scotland would try to cream off significant sums of money because the devolution settlement makes it difficult to see where he would cream them off to. Given Dr Reid's recent comments at the Labour party conference in Bournemouth that he was less than confident about the continuation of the office of secretary of state, will the minister clarify how the budget on which this Parliament depends and which is vital for Scotland will be negotiated and who will be responsible for that negotiation within the United Kingdom Cabinet? Is the minister confident that he will not be left—as Mr Wilson has suggested—a hapless puppet with a hand stretched out, waiting for something to happen?

The Scottish Conservatives endorse the principles of the bill and we are minded to co

operate with its swift passage.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C709014", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26906, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 605.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 605.0, "ID": 26906, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ms Patricia Ferguson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 641.0, "ContributionID": 709014, "EditedText": "At the moment it is possible to allow members five minutes for speeches in the open debate. We will begin with that time limit, but if it becomes necessary we will drop down to four minutes. If members stick to their time limits, we might manage to include everyone.", "EditedTextHTML": "At the moment it is possible to allow members five minutes for speeches in the open debate. We will begin with that time limit, but if it becomes necessary we will drop down to four minutes. If members stick to their time limits, we might manage to include everyone.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C709020", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26906, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 605.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 605.0, "ID": 26906, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 654.0, "ContributionID": 709020, "EditedText": "I have given way once. I should not really get involved in this political divorce—it is very disturbing, Presiding Officer, to watch.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have given way once. I should not really get involved in this political divorce—it is very disturbing, Presiding Officer, to watch.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1805E13P109C709023", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26906, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 605.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 605.0, "ID": 26906, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Whitefield, Karen", "ID": 1805, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Airdrie and Shotts" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Karen Whitefield", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Karen Whitefield (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 661.0, "ContributionID": 709023, "EditedText": "The Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill provides the statutory framework that the Scottish Parliament needs to function effectively, efficiently and—if necessary—swiftly. It provides clear measures to ensure transparency and public accountability at all times. I believe that this bill complements and enhances other initiatives to increase public awareness of the functioning of the Parliament— initiatives such as the Scottish Parliament and Scottish Executive websites, the ability to have direct access to MSPs through e-mail and the partner libraries. The bill recognises the need to use plain English and standard accountancy terms, so that everyone will be able to understand the Parliament's spending. It provides strong lines of accountability—accountability of public spending bodies to Audit Scotland and accountability of the Executive to the Parliament. The latter relationship is crucial, as it is the means by which public spending becomes accountable to the public. To quote the Minister for Finance, this is\"a bill that goes to the heart of the relationship between Parliament and the Executive\". The bill includes provisions to make officials personally answerable to the Parliament on matters of regularity, propriety and value for money. Once again, transparent and open procedures will enhance the reputation of the Parliament. The Scottish public rightly demand that their taxes are spent in a way that ensures best value for money. I am pleased that the bill sets out clear powers to enable the Auditor General for Scotland to initiate and carry out examinations of economy, efficiency and effectiveness. An example of the bill's concern for public accountability is demonstrated by the provision of a right of access for the Auditor General for Scotland to the records of those organisations that depend, to a significant extent, on the money from the Scottish consolidated fund. The bill contains measures that will allow the Executive to revise budgets and respond swiftly to unforeseen circumstances. The contingency arrangements will allow ministers to respond to urgent need, but will place a sensible limit on that spending. The bill will enable ministers to use secondary legislation to revise budgets through budget bills. That will ensure that the Parliament will be responsive and accountable. The creation of Audit Scotland will ensure that public money is being spent prudently and that accounting bodies are not just asking for value for money, but practising it. I welcome the rationalisation of the audit arrangements for the national health service in Scotland. The NHS receives large amounts of money from the Scottish consolidated fund, and it is appropriate that the responsibility for carrying out its audit should be with the Auditor General for Scotland. This bill will ensure that at all times the people's money is handled with the highest standards of honesty and integrity. I hope that members will join me in welcoming the bill and supporting the motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill provides the statutory framework that the Scottish Parliament needs to function effectively, efficiently and—if necessary—swiftly. It provides clear measures to ensure transparency and public accountability at all times.

I believe that this bill complements and enhances other initiatives to increase public awareness of the functioning of the Parliament— initiatives such as the Scottish Parliament and Scottish Executive websites, the ability to have direct access to MSPs through e-mail and the partner libraries.

The bill recognises the need to use plain English and standard accountancy terms, so that everyone will be able to understand the Parliament's spending. It provides strong lines of accountability—accountability of public spending bodies to Audit Scotland and accountability of the Executive to the Parliament. The latter relationship is crucial, as it is the means by which public spending becomes accountable to the public.

To quote the Minister for Finance, this is

\"a bill that goes to the heart of the relationship between Parliament and the Executive\".

The bill includes provisions to make officials personally answerable to the Parliament on matters of regularity, propriety and value for money. Once again, transparent and open procedures will enhance the reputation of the Parliament.

The Scottish public rightly demand that their taxes are spent in a way that ensures best value for money. I am pleased that the bill sets out clear powers to enable the Auditor General for Scotland to initiate and carry out examinations of economy, efficiency and effectiveness. An example of the bill's concern for public accountability is demonstrated by the provision of a right of access for the Auditor General for Scotland to the records of those organisations that depend, to a significant extent, on the money from the Scottish consolidated fund.

The bill contains measures that will allow the Executive to revise budgets and respond swiftly to unforeseen circumstances. The contingency arrangements will allow ministers to respond to urgent need, but will place a sensible limit on that spending. The bill will enable ministers to use secondary legislation to revise budgets through budget bills. That will ensure that the Parliament will be responsive and accountable.

The creation of Audit Scotland will ensure that public money is being spent prudently and that accounting bodies are not just asking for value for money, but practising it. I welcome the rationalisation of the audit arrangements for the national health service in Scotland. The NHS receives large amounts of money from the Scottish consolidated fund, and it is appropriate that the responsibility for carrying out its audit should be with the Auditor General for Scotland.

This bill will ensure that at all times the people's money is handled with the highest standards of honesty and integrity. I hope that members will join me in welcoming the bill and supporting the motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1926E190P479C709028", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26906, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 605.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 605.0, "ID": 26906, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Adam, Brian", "ID": 1926, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Adam", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Brian Adam (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 674.0, "ContributionID": 709028, "EditedText": "I welcome the bill and some of the remarks made by the Minister for Finance. In particular, he referred to resources being used only with the Parliament's approval. He went on to qualify that to some extent by talking about emergency spending and contingency spending. I was glad to hear that even in those circumstances—I hope that I heard him correctly—Parliament would hear first. As we deal with the principles of the bill at this stage, I hope that I will be forgiven if I refer to some details. Mr McConnell's colleague Mr McAveety was in a little difficulty at the Local Government Committee when he made announcements before Parliament had heard about them. I hope that Mr McConnell's remarks about reporting any contingency spending to the Parliament first will be adhered to. Indeed, when we come to deal with the detail of the bill, that might be an appropriate point at which to make that principle clear. Perhaps Mr McConnell will address that point when winding up. One matter that has troubled me since long before I came to serve in the Parliament is the clarity of financial management, which the bill gives us the opportunity to address. Buried in the bill is a reference to the Keeper of the Registers of Scotland and the 6 per cent return on capital. That is a detailed point. The point that I wish to make is not peculiar to the Keeper of the Registers but is relevant to the health service—indeed, a similar point was made about the 3 per cent efficiency savings that are usually sought year on year in the health service, and the 1 per cent efficiency savings that are being sought from further education institutes. I hope that when such matters are reported to the Finance Committee and the Audit Committee, the moneys will be clearly identified as recycled, not as fresh moneys. We need to have a procedure that adheres to the principle that if the hangovers from a more competitive rather than collaborative environment are used, it is made clear that it is the same money that is being used again. I echo some of the points that members made about local authorities and the access that the Audit Committee might have. I understand that much sensitivity surrounds that issue and I do not want to labour the point, but I would like to highlight a case from this week. Sir Stewart Sutherland identified the fact that across the UK there is a shortfall in elderly care, amounting to a large sum of money. Undoubtedly, that shortfall was measured against the grant-aided expenditure limits that were set by ministers. I know that that matter is left to individual authorities. Indeed, if we are to have local authorities, they still need to make decisions, but when the wishes of the Executive, to some extent, or indeed of the Parliament are ignored in such a way, that might be a matter for the Audit Committee, not just the Executive. In line with the point made earlier by Mr Swinney, I hope that in future we will follow the expenditure of the public pound all the way down, not just to the local enterprise companies, but to enterprise trusts, and, in similar vein, to the nondepartmental bodies: I cannot remember the grand title that they have these days. I am glad to see that Dr Simpson has returned— I would like to touch on the point that he made on the comprehensive spending review and the introduction of a certain amount of flexibility. Perhaps when we are considering how we are to make that flexibility available, we should write into the legislation the percentages that we can carry over and the mechanisms of review. I accept that that is there, but the bill lacks clarity in that area. If we insert those details, it will satisfy the point made by Mr Wilson, and it will satisfy me. I ask that we beef up the paragraph in the report which suggests that Audit Scotland might have some responsibility for development of the service in terms of performance indicators. I hope that Audit Scotland will be a little more proactive than that and will be the leading body for research and development in audit.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the bill and some of the remarks made by the Minister for Finance. In particular, he referred to resources being used only with the Parliament's approval. He went on to qualify that to some extent by talking about emergency spending and contingency spending. I was glad to hear that even in those circumstances—I hope that I heard him correctly—Parliament would hear first. As we deal with the principles of the bill at this stage, I hope that I will be forgiven if I refer to some details.

Mr McConnell's colleague Mr McAveety was in a little difficulty at the Local Government Committee when he made announcements before Parliament had heard about them. I hope that Mr McConnell's remarks about reporting any contingency spending to the Parliament first will be adhered to. Indeed, when we come to deal with the detail of the bill, that might be an appropriate point at which to make that principle clear. Perhaps Mr McConnell will address that point when winding up.

One matter that has troubled me since long before I came to serve in the Parliament is the clarity of financial management, which the bill gives us the opportunity to address. Buried in the bill is a reference to the Keeper of the Registers of Scotland and the 6 per cent return on capital. That is a detailed point. The point that I wish to make is not peculiar to the Keeper of the Registers but is relevant to the health service—indeed, a similar point was made about the 3 per cent efficiency savings that are usually sought year on year in the health service, and the 1 per cent efficiency savings that are being sought from further education institutes. I hope that when such matters are reported to the Finance Committee and the Audit Committee, the moneys will be clearly identified as recycled, not as fresh moneys. We need to have a procedure that adheres to the principle that if the hangovers from a more competitive rather than collaborative environment are used, it is made clear that it is the same money that is being used again.

I echo some of the points that members made about local authorities and the access that the Audit Committee might have. I understand that much sensitivity surrounds that issue and I do not want to labour the point, but I would like to highlight a case from this week. Sir Stewart Sutherland identified the fact that across the UK there is a shortfall in elderly care, amounting to a large sum of money. Undoubtedly, that shortfall was measured against the grant-aided expenditure limits that were set by ministers. I know that that matter is left to individual authorities. Indeed, if we are to have local authorities, they still need to make decisions, but when the wishes of the Executive, to some extent, or indeed of the Parliament are ignored in such a way, that might be a matter for the Audit Committee, not just the Executive.

In line with the point made earlier by Mr Swinney, I hope that in future we will follow the expenditure of the public pound all the way down, not just to the local enterprise companies, but to enterprise trusts, and, in similar vein, to the nondepartmental bodies: I cannot remember the grand title that they have these days.

I am glad to see that Dr Simpson has returned— I would like to touch on the point that he made on the comprehensive spending review and the introduction of a certain amount of flexibility. Perhaps when we are considering how we are to make that flexibility available, we should write into the legislation the percentages that we can carry over and the mechanisms of review. I accept that

that is there, but the bill lacks clarity in that area. If we insert those details, it will satisfy the point made by Mr Wilson, and it will satisfy me.

I ask that we beef up the paragraph in the report which suggests that Audit Scotland might have some responsibility for development of the service in terms of performance indicators. I hope that Audit Scotland will be a little more proactive than that and will be the leading body for research and development in audit.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2117E79P104C709029", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26906, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 605.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 605.0, "ID": 26906, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macdonald, Lewis", "ID": 2117, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lewis Macdonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Lewis Macdonald (Aberdeen Central) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 677.0, "ContributionID": 709029, "EditedText": "As another member of the Audit Committee, I will touch on the audit and accountability aspects of the bill. It is in all our interests that we establish as wide a consensus as possible on the processes by which ministers are accountable to Parliament, and by which public bodies are accountable both to the Executive and to Parliament. From what we have heard today, there is the basis for a broad consensus on that, although there are areas of continuing discussion. On the establishment of Audit Scotland, it is a welcome development to create a single public sector auditing service, which will service both the Auditor General and the Accounts Commission. The National Audit Office has been one of the successful agencies in seeking good government at Westminster and has exposed abuses of power and of public money. I welcome the bill as a further act of devolution, in that it transfers the Scottish wing of the National Audit Office to a distinctive Scottish agency, making it directly accountable and putting its skills at the disposal of this Parliament. Like Karen Whitefield, I believe it right that NHS accounts and spending in Scotland should come under the new body, Audit Scotland. It is also right that its remit should extend to cover the further education sector. In our committee on Tuesday, we heard evidence from the head of the new Further Education Funding Council. He confirmed that many of our FE colleges have struggled to achieve effective financial management over the past few years. They will benefit from being made directly accountable through Audit Scotland. Andrew Welsh raised the point, as did John Swinney earlier, about bringing other bodies within the remit of Audit Scotland. It is important to recognise that the bill does not close the door on that, and leaves open the possibility of further evolution of the public audit system. It is also right that we should not leap ahead of ourselves in its development. Conservative and SNP members implied that they had concerns about the continuing split, in terms of local government, between the Accounts Commission and Audit Scotland. Those concerns were raised at the Audit Committee, but were not agreed by the committee. It is a pedantic but important point to put it on the record that we discussed that, but did not take a committee position. The concern is that local government spends our money and should be accountable, but there is an important distinction between a local council and an FE college.", "EditedTextHTML": "As another member of the Audit Committee, I will touch on the audit and accountability aspects of the bill. It is in all our interests that we establish as wide a consensus as possible on the processes by which ministers are accountable to Parliament, and by which public bodies are accountable both to the Executive and to Parliament. From what we have heard today, there is the basis for a broad consensus on that, although there are areas of continuing discussion.

On the establishment of Audit Scotland, it is a welcome development to create a single public sector auditing service, which will service both the Auditor General and the Accounts Commission. The National Audit Office has been one of the successful agencies in seeking good government at Westminster and has exposed abuses of power and of public money.

I welcome the bill as a further act of devolution, in that it transfers the Scottish wing of the National Audit Office to a distinctive Scottish agency, making it directly accountable and putting its skills at the disposal of this Parliament.

Like Karen Whitefield, I believe it right that NHS accounts and spending in Scotland should come under the new body, Audit Scotland. It is also right that its remit should extend to cover the further education sector. In our committee on Tuesday, we heard evidence from the head of the new Further Education Funding Council. He confirmed that many of our FE colleges have struggled to achieve effective financial management over the past few years. They will benefit from being made directly accountable through Audit Scotland.

Andrew Welsh raised the point, as did John Swinney earlier, about bringing other bodies within the remit of Audit Scotland. It is important to recognise that the bill does not close the door on that, and leaves open the possibility of further evolution of the public audit system. It is also right that we should not leap ahead of ourselves in its development.

Conservative and SNP members implied that they had concerns about the continuing split, in terms of local government, between the Accounts Commission and Audit Scotland. Those concerns were raised at the Audit Committee, but were not agreed by the committee. It is a pedantic but important point to put it on the record that we discussed that, but did not take a committee position.

The concern is that local government spends our money and should be accountable, but there is an important distinction between a local council and an FE college.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1926E190P479C709030", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26906, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 605.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 605.0, "ID": 26906, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Adam, Brian", "ID": 1926, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Adam", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Brian Adam: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 679.0, "ContributionID": 709030, "EditedText": "I accept Lewis Macdonald's point that there was not an agreement on the committee. Does he agree that in the examination of the global sums, there might be a mechanism whereby it is possible to satisfy the need for accountability and openness at the level of the Parliament rather than just at the level of the Executive?", "EditedTextHTML": "I accept Lewis Macdonald's point that there was not an agreement on the committee. Does he agree that in the examination of the global sums, there might be a mechanism whereby it is possible to satisfy the need for accountability and openness at the level of the Parliament rather than just at the level of the Executive?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2117E79P104C709031", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26906, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 605.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 605.0, "ID": 26906, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macdonald, Lewis", "ID": 2117, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lewis Macdonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Lewis Macdonald: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 681.0, "ContributionID": 709031, "EditedText": "I think that to an extent the minister has already addressed that point. The global sum, the allocation to local government, is a matter for Parliament. It is appropriate that supervision and scrutiny of the detailed expenditure are kept at one remove from the way in which non-elected bodies account more directly to this Parliament. That is right and is in line with the principles of devolution and subsidiarity that we should continue to support.", "EditedTextHTML": "I think that to an extent the minister has already addressed that point. The global sum, the allocation to local government, is a matter for Parliament. It is appropriate that supervision and scrutiny of the detailed expenditure are kept at one remove from the way in which non-elected bodies account more directly to this Parliament. That is right and is in line with the principles of devolution and subsidiarity that we should continue to support.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2152E53P75C709034", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26906, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 605.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 605.0, "ID": 26906, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnston, Nick", "ID": 2152, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nick Johnston", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Nick Johnston (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 688.0, "ContributionID": 709034, "EditedText": "Perhaps we should be thankful that this is not a particularly exciting bill, as that will spare us the horticultural hyperbole to which Miss Goldie treated us yesterday. The framework that we establish with the bill will be critical to the success of the Parliament's work and to the way in which the Parliament is viewed by the people of Scotland. It is through the bill that we shall ensure that the budget is not only set properly, but spent properly.As a member of the Audit Committee, I pay tribute to the work of the financial issues advisory group, without which we would not have the opportunity to put in place the checks and balances that will ensure that the wishes of Parliament are carried out. There is no doubt in my mind that, over the next four years, great strains will be placed on the public purse. The bill will have to ensure that savings and efficiencies are identified to deal with the pressures on public spending. When considering the bill, the Parliament will have to address a number of points. I have in my notes: \"the need to avoid unnecessary democracy\"—I meant \"the need to avoid unnecessary bureaucracy\". Laughter. We must also be aware of the need to fix budgets as early as possible, and to consider that annual processes might detract from long-term planning. As Karen Whitefield said, we must make the bill easy to understand, by using plain English. We will want to examine the controls that are set out in the bill and ministers' proposals for the format of accounts. We appreciate that at this stage prescription is probably not wise, but we need to ensure that transparency is maintained. I would like the minister to clarify the issue of a cut-off date for presentation of budget drafts to the Finance Committee and whether a deadline will be set for budget arrangements—no more than three months, say, into the spending year. I would not feel comfortable about rolling a prior budget on indefinitely. We do not want to have stonewalling in the Parliament. Unless budgets are set, outside bodies cannot project and plan new actions. Prior- agreed projects need to be amended so that they can operate under resource accounting and budgeting. It is also important that the transfers of staff are contiguous, because the transfer of NAO staff will require separate legislation. Conservative members welcome the proposal that Audit Scotland should in future oversee further education colleges and national health service trusts. We share the belief that the introduction of external audit appointments will complement the measures that have been taken by further education colleges to bring more openness and accountability to their management. My main concerns, which have been picked up by the Convener of the Audit Committee, lie in the section of the bill that deals with economy, effectiveness and efficiency. I refer members to my remarks of 14 September on the competency of the Auditor General for Scotland. I expressed concern about sections 21(3) and (4), which state \"that he is only competent to examine bodies that have more than half their funds provided from the public purse.\"—Official Report, Audit Committee, 14 September 1999; c 3. The point that I made was that if a public body receives 49 per cent of its funds from the public purse and 51 per cent from private sources, that is still a hell of a lot of money from the public purse. Questions should also be asked about the accountability of ministers. To members who have not done so, I recommend that they read the interesting little booklet \"Holding to Account\" by Robert Black, who is the new Auditor General. He goes into some detail about whether we should hold ministers to account not only in expenditure areas, but for organisation performance and service delivery. Finally, I would make the point that 85 per cent of devolved expenditure will be in the hands of local government, non-departmental public bodies and other agencies. It is vital for the operation of this Parliament that public auditors should be seen to be independent and unfettered in their ability to publish audit findings to elected representatives and the public, whose money we are spending.", "EditedTextHTML": "Perhaps we should be thankful that this is not a particularly exciting bill, as that will spare us the horticultural hyperbole to which Miss Goldie treated us yesterday.

The framework that we establish with the bill will be critical to the success of the Parliament's work and to the way in which the Parliament is viewed by the people of Scotland. It is through the bill that we shall ensure that the budget is not only set

properly, but spent properly.

As a member of the Audit Committee, I pay tribute to the work of the financial issues advisory group, without which we would not have the opportunity to put in place the checks and balances that will ensure that the wishes of Parliament are carried out.

There is no doubt in my mind that, over the next four years, great strains will be placed on the public purse. The bill will have to ensure that savings and efficiencies are identified to deal with the pressures on public spending.

When considering the bill, the Parliament will have to address a number of points. I have in my notes:

\"the need to avoid unnecessary democracy\"—

I meant \"the need to avoid unnecessary bureaucracy\". [Laughter.] We must also be aware of the need to fix budgets as early as possible, and to consider that annual processes might detract from long-term planning. As Karen Whitefield said, we must make the bill easy to understand, by using plain English.

We will want to examine the controls that are set out in the bill and ministers' proposals for the format of accounts. We appreciate that at this stage prescription is probably not wise, but we need to ensure that transparency is maintained.

I would like the minister to clarify the issue of a cut-off date for presentation of budget drafts to the Finance Committee and whether a deadline will be set for budget arrangements—no more than three months, say, into the spending year. I would not feel comfortable about rolling a prior budget on indefinitely. We do not want to have stonewalling in the Parliament. Unless budgets are set, outside bodies cannot project and plan new actions. Prior- agreed projects need to be amended so that they can operate under resource accounting and budgeting. It is also important that the transfers of staff are contiguous, because the transfer of NAO staff will require separate legislation.

Conservative members welcome the proposal that Audit Scotland should in future oversee further education colleges and national health service trusts. We share the belief that the introduction of external audit appointments will complement the measures that have been taken by further education colleges to bring more openness and accountability to their management.

My main concerns, which have been picked up by the Convener of the Audit Committee, lie in the section of the bill that deals with economy, effectiveness and efficiency. I refer members to my remarks of 14 September on the competency of the Auditor General for Scotland. I expressed concern about sections 21(3) and (4), which state

\"that he is only competent to examine bodies that have more than half their funds provided from the public purse.\"—[Official Report, Audit Committee, 14 September 1999; c 3.]

The point that I made was that if a public body receives 49 per cent of its funds from the public purse and 51 per cent from private sources, that is still a hell of a lot of money from the public purse.

Questions should also be asked about the accountability of ministers. To members who have not done so, I recommend that they read the interesting little booklet \"Holding to Account\" by Robert Black, who is the new Auditor General. He goes into some detail about whether we should hold ministers to account not only in expenditure areas, but for organisation performance and service delivery.

Finally, I would make the point that 85 per cent of devolved expenditure will be in the hands of local government, non-departmental public bodies and other agencies. It is vital for the operation of this Parliament that public auditors should be seen to be independent and unfettered in their ability to publish audit findings to elected representatives and the public, whose money we are spending.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1990E181P340C709035", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26906, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 605.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 605.0, "ID": 26906, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robson, Euan", "ID": 1990, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Roxburgh and Berwickshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Euan Robson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Euan Robson (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 691.0, "ContributionID": 709035, "EditedText": "At the risk of some repetition, I would like to welcome the bill and the minister's statement. The bill is clearly the product of exhaustive consultation before and since the establishment of the Parliament. Indeed, the phrase \"consultation fatigue\" might apply. On behalf of the Liberal Democrat party, I add our appreciation of the financial issues advisory group's report. One of our manifesto commitments for the Scottish Parliament elections was to establish a public service performance committee, to hold politicians and civil servants to account for their use of public money. In the Finance Committee and the Audit Committee we have the mechanism that we wanted. They will deliver the scrutiny that was demanded by the Liberal Democrat party and others as long as the Executive maintains the constructive and open approach that it has adopted so far. We support the three key objectives of the bill: to create a world-class system of financial management that is an example to others; to enable the Parliament to make informed and transparent decisions on expenditure and to hold to account those who spend public money; and to meet the requirements of the Scotland Act 1998. We believe that the bill will achieve those objectives. There are areas of concern. We accept that the budget revisions should be by secondary legislation, mainly so that revision can be swift but, nevertheless, transparent. We recognise that local authority arrangements will remain unchanged and accept the importance of the independence of local government, but we have residual concerns about the fact that £6.4 billion might not be thoroughly scrutinised by Parliament. We want to return to the issue of the quality of the scrutiny of Scottish Enterprise and local enterprise companies during later stages of the bill. On the format of accounts, we are content that, in consultation with the Finance Committee and the Audit Committee, the minister be given powers to determine the format of accounts. I ask, however, that the accounts be in plain English and that the format should be intelligible to interested laymen such as me. I share some of the concerns that have been raised about section 21. Why was the 50 per cent qualification introduced? Even 49 per cent of a body's money could be a substantial figure. To use an example from another area, the definition of a monopoly is a company that takes 25 per cent or more of market share. We need to think again about the figure of 50 per cent. We should also return to the question of three- year budgeting because of all the problems that we well understand at the end of the financial year. Clearly, a three-year horizon is better for planning. To Andrew Wilson I say that, yes, the Liberal Democrat party still believes in federalism. That, too, is a matter to which we should return later. I was delighted to hear Jack McConnell quoting Gladstone. I thought that it was only my party's leader who quoted Gladstone—I will tell him of the minister's use of a Gladstone quotation today. I am glad that Jack McConnell chose to listen to the wise words of a former Liberal Prime Minister.", "EditedTextHTML": "At the risk of some repetition, I would like to welcome the bill and the minister's statement. The bill is clearly the product of exhaustive consultation before and since the establishment of the Parliament. Indeed, the phrase \"consultation fatigue\" might apply.

On behalf of the Liberal Democrat party, I add our appreciation of the financial issues advisory group's report. One of our manifesto commitments for the Scottish Parliament elections was to establish a public service performance committee, to hold politicians and civil servants to account for their use of public money. In the Finance Committee and the Audit Committee we have the mechanism that we wanted. They will deliver the scrutiny that was demanded by the Liberal Democrat party and others as long as the Executive maintains the constructive and open approach that it has adopted so far.

We support the three key objectives of the bill: to create a world-class system of financial management that is an example to others; to enable the Parliament to make informed and transparent decisions on expenditure and to hold to account those who spend public money; and to meet the requirements of the Scotland Act 1998. We believe that the bill will achieve those objectives.

There are areas of concern. We accept that the budget revisions should be by secondary

legislation, mainly so that revision can be swift but, nevertheless, transparent. We recognise that local authority arrangements will remain unchanged and accept the importance of the independence of local government, but we have residual concerns about the fact that £6.4 billion might not be thoroughly scrutinised by Parliament.

We want to return to the issue of the quality of the scrutiny of Scottish Enterprise and local enterprise companies during later stages of the bill.

On the format of accounts, we are content that, in consultation with the Finance Committee and the Audit Committee, the minister be given powers to determine the format of accounts. I ask, however, that the accounts be in plain English and that the format should be intelligible to interested laymen such as me.

I share some of the concerns that have been raised about section 21. Why was the 50 per cent qualification introduced? Even 49 per cent of a body's money could be a substantial figure. To use an example from another area, the definition of a monopoly is a company that takes 25 per cent or more of market share. We need to think again about the figure of 50 per cent.

We should also return to the question of three- year budgeting because of all the problems that we well understand at the end of the financial year. Clearly, a three-year horizon is better for planning.

To Andrew Wilson I say that, yes, the Liberal Democrat party still believes in federalism. That, too, is a matter to which we should return later.

I was delighted to hear Jack McConnell quoting Gladstone. I thought that it was only my party's leader who quoted Gladstone—I will tell him of the minister's use of a Gladstone quotation today. I am glad that Jack McConnell chose to listen to the wise words of a former Liberal Prime Minister.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5764809+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C709057", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26906, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 605.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 605.0, "ID": 26906, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 742.0, "ContributionID": 709057, "EditedText": "I have full confidence in the work of Andrew Welsh and the Audit Committee in scrutinising this bill.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have full confidence in the work of Andrew Welsh and the Audit Committee in scrutinising this bill.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5764809+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C709042", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26906, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 605.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 605.0, "ID": 26906, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 708.0, "ContributionID": 709042, "EditedText": "That was three minutes and two seconds.", "EditedTextHTML": "That was three minutes and two seconds.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5764809+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C709058", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26906, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 605.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 605.0, "ID": 26906, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan (Falkirk West): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 744.0, "ContributionID": 709058, "EditedText": "Give way to the mother of the Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "Give way to the mother of the Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5764809+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C709045", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26906, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 605.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 605.0, "ID": 26906, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 717.0, "ContributionID": 709045, "EditedText": "I would like to repeat my earlier congratulations for Mr McConnell and his team on the work that they have done on this bill. Andrew Welsh said that Scotland is the ideal size to run. I think that we are seeing the start of how we are going about that in a modern way. Mike Watson, who is the convener of the Finance Committee, said that the debate is not the most popular among the people in the press gallery, but we should all join in congratulating the Press Association and Joe Quinn—the only representative of the press here—for sitting through the entire debate. There are one or two news stories in this debate, as will emerge in the course of my remarks. I would like to commend the conveners of theFinance Committee and the Audit Committee for the way in which they have conducted the passage of the bill so far. In those two committees we have just what we are after in the Scottish Parliament—impartial but vigorous scrutineers of the Executive. Miss Goldie filled in very ably for the unwell Mr Davidson, whose speedy recovery we pray for. She went about her job with her usual clarity of pronunciation and delivered one of those devilish political snipes where the opponent gets killed with a hug and a smile. It was a performance that I will have to learn from. Euan Robson had the No 1 exclusive for Joe Quinn in the press gallery. According to Euan, the public service performance committee is a Liberal manifesto commitment that has been delivered. It is the first, and it clearly sneaked through during the negotiations that led to the coalition. However, there was a more important point in Euan's contribution—the figure of 50 per cent in section 21 is random. Why, minister, is it such a random figure, and why cannot we deal with it? Brian Adam made an excellent and detailed speech. Can we have a commitment today, Mr McConnell, that the Scottish Parliament will always hear first whenever any financial announcement is made, and that we will not again have announcements being made elsewhere? Will he also make a commitment today that when recycled funds are announced, they are announced as just that—recycled funds—and not as new spending commitments? There is an important point on the accountability and transparency of spending that I would like to address, through the Presiding Officer, to Lewis Macdonald. We cannot close the door—and Lewis Macdonald is right to say that the bill does not close the door—on having the activities of local enterprise companies and local authorities accessed and scrutinised by the Finance Committee and the Audit Committee; but surely at this early stage, when we are setting precedents with our structures, we should actively open the door. Mr Macdonald says that we should not get ahead of ourselves, but this is precisely the time when we should get ahead of ourselves, to set out exactly the structures that we want. That is the kind of point that we want to take through stage 2 of the bill. I want to endorse Mr Watson's comments about Karen Whitefield. In her very informed speech, she drew attention to the fact that agency heads will now be accountable to the Parliament. Will Mr McConnell confirm that, although those agency heads will be accountable, the final responsibility for all these matters will rest with ministers? Ministerial accountability must not be undermined by any measure introduced by the bill. I want to return to my point about the unsustainable constitutional anomaly which means that the Secretary of State for Scotland can take what he likes from the Scottish budget. I plead with Mr McConnell to suggest ideas or to be open to suggestions about how we can set a precedent now that prevents us from having, shall we say, any difficult relationships between this Parliament and Westminster in future. Once again, a nationalist has come up with a constructive idea about how we can have a healthy relationship with London, despite rumours to the contrary. The minister's colleague—and my colleague on the Finance Committee—Richard Simpson gave an excellent speech. I point out to the press gallery that this is the second exclusive of the debate. Does the minister agree with Richard Simpson that the settlement is not static in financial terms and that there are ways of improving it within the current devolved settlement? Dr Simpson seems to hold the same candle as I do to a future where we have a more modern, more accountable and more responsible Scottish Parliament and I welcome him to the nationalist fold on that point. We will consider at stage 2—the committee stage—some of the ideas that have been suggested during the passage of the bill so far. Alex Neil made several suggestions. To be serious, we need to recognise the limits of this bill, which were so ably outlined by Adam Ingram. We have to aim at growing, not constraining, the settlement. If Richard Simpson, members on the Liberal Democrat benches and some of Annabel Goldie's colleagues \"in the country\"—as the Conservatives traditionally put it—can get their views across, perhaps we can grow towards a situation where the Parliament not only talks about good housekeeping but delivers on policy priorities using Scotland's resources in a more constructive way than is presently possible.", "EditedTextHTML": "I would like to repeat my earlier congratulations for Mr McConnell and his team on the work that they have done on this bill. Andrew Welsh said that Scotland is the ideal size to run. I think that we are seeing the start of how we are going about that in a modern way.

Mike Watson, who is the convener of the Finance Committee, said that the debate is not the most popular among the people in the press gallery, but we should all join in congratulating the Press Association and Joe Quinn—the only representative of the press here—for sitting through the entire debate. There are one or two news stories in this debate, as will emerge in the course of my remarks.

I would like to commend the conveners of the

Finance Committee and the Audit Committee for the way in which they have conducted the passage of the bill so far. In those two committees we have just what we are after in the Scottish Parliament—impartial but vigorous scrutineers of the Executive.

Miss Goldie filled in very ably for the unwell Mr Davidson, whose speedy recovery we pray for. She went about her job with her usual clarity of pronunciation and delivered one of those devilish political snipes where the opponent gets killed with a hug and a smile. It was a performance that I will have to learn from.

Euan Robson had the No 1 exclusive for Joe Quinn in the press gallery. According to Euan, the public service performance committee is a Liberal manifesto commitment that has been delivered. It is the first, and it clearly sneaked through during the negotiations that led to the coalition. However, there was a more important point in Euan's contribution—the figure of 50 per cent in section 21 is random. Why, minister, is it such a random figure, and why cannot we deal with it?

Brian Adam made an excellent and detailed speech. Can we have a commitment today, Mr McConnell, that the Scottish Parliament will always hear first whenever any financial announcement is made, and that we will not again have announcements being made elsewhere? Will he also make a commitment today that when recycled funds are announced, they are announced as just that—recycled funds—and not as new spending commitments?

There is an important point on the accountability and transparency of spending that I would like to address, through the Presiding Officer, to Lewis Macdonald. We cannot close the door—and Lewis Macdonald is right to say that the bill does not close the door—on having the activities of local enterprise companies and local authorities accessed and scrutinised by the Finance Committee and the Audit Committee; but surely at this early stage, when we are setting precedents with our structures, we should actively open the door. Mr Macdonald says that we should not get ahead of ourselves, but this is precisely the time when we should get ahead of ourselves, to set out exactly the structures that we want. That is the kind of point that we want to take through stage 2 of the bill.

I want to endorse Mr Watson's comments about Karen Whitefield. In her very informed speech, she drew attention to the fact that agency heads will now be accountable to the Parliament. Will Mr McConnell confirm that, although those agency heads will be accountable, the final responsibility for all these matters will rest with ministers? Ministerial accountability must not be undermined by any measure introduced by the bill.

I want to return to my point about the unsustainable constitutional anomaly which means that the Secretary of State for Scotland can take what he likes from the Scottish budget. I plead with Mr McConnell to suggest ideas or to be open to suggestions about how we can set a precedent now that prevents us from having, shall we say, any difficult relationships between this Parliament and Westminster in future. Once again, a nationalist has come up with a constructive idea about how we can have a healthy relationship with London, despite rumours to the contrary.

The minister's colleague—and my colleague on the Finance Committee—Richard Simpson gave an excellent speech. I point out to the press gallery that this is the second exclusive of the debate. Does the minister agree with Richard Simpson that the settlement is not static in financial terms and that there are ways of improving it within the current devolved settlement? Dr Simpson seems to hold the same candle as I do to a future where we have a more modern, more accountable and more responsible Scottish Parliament and I welcome him to the nationalist fold on that point.

We will consider at stage 2—the committee stage—some of the ideas that have been suggested during the passage of the bill so far. Alex Neil made several suggestions. To be serious, we need to recognise the limits of this bill, which were so ably outlined by Adam Ingram. We have to aim at growing, not constraining, the settlement.

If Richard Simpson, members on the Liberal Democrat benches and some of Annabel Goldie's colleagues \"in the country\"—as the Conservatives traditionally put it—can get their views across, perhaps we can grow towards a situation where the Parliament not only talks about good housekeeping but delivers on policy priorities using Scotland's resources in a more constructive way than is presently possible.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C709047", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26906, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 605.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 605.0, "ID": 26906, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 722.0, "ContributionID": 709047, "EditedText": "I will do my best to last that long, Presiding Officer. I am aware of the need to allow members to return before 5 o'clock. I join members in thanking the finance officials and many other officials throughout our organisation who worked so hard on the bill over the summer. I genuinely thank them for their hard work on preparing the way for today's debate. Their work is often not recognised—indeed, it is occasionally criticised—in this chamber and elsewhere. They have done a tremendous job and I am very grateful to them not just for the work that they have done but for the work that they will need to do in the months ahead. I also thank every member who has spoken. This has been a quality debate about a very high- quality subject and I hope that we can have the same quality of debate in the committees and the further Parliament meetings. I am particularly grateful to Euan Robson, Andrew Wilson and Annabel Goldie. I am pretty certain that they indicated their general support for the principles of the bill. As Annabel Goldie said, this is not a particularly exciting subject. Perhaps it should be. However, although the subject is not necessarily exciting, I am determined that we proceed as far as we can with this bill on an all-party basis. The financial procedures of the Parliament should, if at all possible, be agreed amongst us all to give those procedures the credibility and foundation to allow us to make future individual budget decisions. As part of that all-party support, I thank Keith Raffan for his contribution to consensus in the chamber. I am sure that his consensual remarks were appreciated by every MSP and it is nice to welcome him back after his operation during the summer. I hope that everyone welcomes him back, even those who are occasionally subject to his speeches. Keith Raffan made some very important points. In the weeks ahead, we will agree in writing the procedures that will govern access to information, the framework for stages 1 and 2 of the annual budget round and many other matters. Mike Watson is right to say that the Finance Committee has a vital role in that work. It is particularly important to determine—although it is never the Executive's job to do so—which committees will work on which bills and how the written agreements will be made. We will propose drafts and discuss them in due course. We should ensure, given the importance of this subject, that the committees of this Parliament, not just the Finance and Audit Committees, are involved in the deliberations at all times. I thank my Labour colleagues, Richard Simpson, Karen Whitefield, Lewis Macdonald and Cathie Craigie for their support for the principles of the bill and for their references to the health service, to further education colleges and to local government. On that subject, I disagree fundamentally on the principles behind the recommendations of Annabel Goldie and Bill Aitken—and, to some extent, of Brian Adam. I think that local authorities are democratically accountable to the people who elect them, not to this Parliament. We have to remember that division of responsibilities in all that we do.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will do my best to last that long, Presiding Officer. I am aware of the need to allow members to return before 5 o'clock.

I join members in thanking the finance officials and many other officials throughout our organisation who worked so hard on the bill over the summer. I genuinely thank them for their hard work on preparing the way for today's debate. Their work is often not recognised—indeed, it is occasionally criticised—in this chamber and elsewhere. They have done a tremendous job and I am very grateful to them not just for the work that they have done but for the work that they will need to do in the months ahead.

I also thank every member who has spoken. This has been a quality debate about a very high- quality subject and I hope that we can have the same quality of debate in the committees and the further Parliament meetings. I am particularly grateful to Euan Robson, Andrew Wilson and Annabel Goldie. I am pretty certain that they indicated their general support for the principles of the bill.

As Annabel Goldie said, this is not a particularly exciting subject. Perhaps it should be. However, although the subject is not necessarily exciting, I am determined that we proceed as far as we can with this bill on an all-party basis. The financial procedures of the Parliament should, if at all possible, be agreed amongst us all to give those procedures the credibility and foundation to allow us to make future individual budget decisions.

As part of that all-party support, I thank Keith Raffan for his contribution to consensus in the chamber. I am sure that his consensual remarks were appreciated by every MSP and it is nice to welcome him back after his operation during the summer. I hope that everyone welcomes him back, even those who are occasionally subject to his speeches.

Keith Raffan made some very important points. In the weeks ahead, we will agree in writing the procedures that will govern access to information, the framework for stages 1 and 2 of the annual budget round and many other matters.

Mike Watson is right to say that the Finance Committee has a vital role in that work. It is particularly important to determine—although it is never the Executive's job to do so—which committees will work on which bills and how the written agreements will be made. We will propose drafts and discuss them in due course. We should ensure, given the importance of this subject, that the committees of this Parliament, not just the Finance and Audit Committees, are involved in the deliberations at all times.

I thank my Labour colleagues, Richard Simpson, Karen Whitefield, Lewis Macdonald and Cathie Craigie for their support for the principles of the bill and for their references to the health service, to further education colleges and to local government. On that subject, I disagree fundamentally on the principles behind the recommendations of Annabel Goldie and Bill Aitken—and, to some extent, of Brian Adam.

I think that local authorities are democratically accountable to the people who elect them, not to this Parliament. We have to remember that

division of responsibilities in all that we do.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709060", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26906, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 605.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 605.0, "ID": 26906, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 748.0, "ContributionID": 709060, "EditedText": "Come on. Give way.", "EditedTextHTML": "Come on. Give way.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1878E208P502C709052", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26906, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 605.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 605.0, "ID": 26906, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Dr Winnie", "ID": 1878, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Winnie Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Winnie Ewing (Highlands and Islands) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 732.0, "ContributionID": 709052, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1878E208P502C709054", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26906, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 605.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 605.0, "ID": 26906, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Dr Winnie", "ID": 1878, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Winnie Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 736.0, "ContributionID": 709054, "EditedText": "I have an important point to make, too.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have an important point to make, too.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1878E208P502C709056", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26906, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 605.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 605.0, "ID": 26906, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Dr Winnie", "ID": 1878, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Winnie Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Ewing rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 740.0, "ContributionID": 709056, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C709061", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26906, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 605.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 605.0, "ID": 26906, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 750.0, "ContributionID": 709061, "EditedText": "Okay, I will let Dr Ewing in, because I understand that she is unable to join us for the launch of Scotland week in Brussels a week on Monday.", "EditedTextHTML": "Okay, I will let Dr Ewing in, because I understand that she is unable to join us for the launch of Scotland week in Brussels a week on Monday.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C709063", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26906, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 605.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 605.0, "ID": 26906, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 754.0, "ContributionID": 709063, "EditedText": "I will intervene to try to get Dr Ewing an invitation. She tells me that she cannot even come, which is very unfortunate, so I will give her the chance to speak today instead.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will intervene to try to get Dr Ewing an invitation. She tells me that she cannot even come, which is very unfortunate, so I will give her the chance to speak today instead.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1878E208P502C709067", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26906, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 605.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 605.0, "ID": 26906, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Dr Winnie", "ID": 1878, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Winnie Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 762.0, "ContributionID": 709067, "EditedText": "I have sat through the whole debate, except for five minutes, so I think that I am entitled to speak. I have followed the debate with great interest. My question relates to the situation that we are in regarding Europe and the negotiations that affect Scotland, such as those on structural funds. Does not the minister think that it was disgraceful that the Government boasted about its failure to secure a continuation of objective 1 funding for the Highlands and Islands, considering that we were the only part of the whole European Union to be in that particular near-miss situation? The money for the transitional fund was already on offer, yet Labour boasted about the great job that it had done.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have sat through the whole debate, except for five minutes, so I think that I am entitled to speak. I have followed the debate with great interest.

My question relates to the situation that we are in regarding Europe and the negotiations that affect Scotland, such as those on structural funds. Does not the minister think that it was disgraceful that the Government boasted about its failure to secure a continuation of objective 1 funding for the Highlands and Islands, considering that we were the only part of the whole European Union to be in that particular near-miss situation? The money for the transitional fund was already on offer, yet Labour boasted about the great job that it had done.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709070", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26906, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 605.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 605.0, "ID": 26906, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 768.0, "ContributionID": 709070, "EditedText": "Motion moved,", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion moved,

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709071", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26906, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 605.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 605.0, "ID": 26906, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 769.0, "ContributionID": 709071, "EditedText": "That the Parliament, for the purposes of any Act of the Scottish Parliament resulting from the Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill, agrees to— (a) the following expenditure payable out of the Scottish Consolidated Fund— (i) expenditure of the Scottish Administration and Audit Scotland in consequence of the Act, and (ii) increases attributable to the Act in the sums payable out of the Fund by or under any other Act, (b) payments into the Fund and to the Scottish Ministers, and (c) charges imposed by Audit Scotland in respect of the exercise of its functions.—Mr McConnell. Lead Committee", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament, for the purposes of any Act of the Scottish Parliament resulting from the Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill, agrees to— (a) the following expenditure payable out of the Scottish Consolidated Fund— (i) expenditure of the Scottish Administration and Audit Scotland in consequence of the Act, and (ii) increases attributable to the Act in the sums payable out of the Fund by or under any other Act, (b) payments into the Fund and to the Scottish Ministers, and (c) charges imposed by Audit Scotland in respect of the exercise of its functions.—[Mr McConnell.] Lead Committee

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709075", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26907, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 773.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 773.0, "ID": 26907, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 775.0, "ContributionID": 709075, "EditedText": "There are six questions to be put as a result of today's business. The first question is, that amendment S1M-172.1, in the name of Mr Sam Galbraith, which seeks to amend S1M-172, in the name of Mr Alex Salmond, on education, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "There are six questions to be put as a result of today's business.

The first question is, that amendment S1M-172.1, in the name of Mr Sam Galbraith, which seeks to amend S1M-172, in the name of Mr Alex Salmond, on education, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709076", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26907, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 773.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 773.0, "ID": 26907, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 777.0, "ContributionID": 709076, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709077", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26907, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 773.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 773.0, "ID": 26907, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 779.0, "ContributionID": 709077, "EditedText": "In that case, there will be a division. Those members who wish to support Mr Galbraith's amendment should vote yes. The voting time starts now.", "EditedTextHTML": "In that case, there will be a division. Those members who wish to support Mr Galbraith's amendment should vote yes. The voting time starts now.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709078", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26907, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 773.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 773.0, "ID": 26907, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 781.0, "ContributionID": 709078, "EditedText": "FOR Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)(LD)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)AGAINST Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)
(LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)

AGAINST

Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709080", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26907, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 773.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 773.0, "ID": 26907, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 784.0, "ContributionID": 709080, "EditedText": "Amendment agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709086", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26907, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 773.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 773.0, "ID": 26907, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 794.0, "ContributionID": 709086, "EditedText": "Motion, as amended, agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion, as amended, agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709093", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26907, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 773.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 773.0, "ID": 26907, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 803.0, "ContributionID": 709093, "EditedText": "That the Parliament, for the purposes of any Act of the Scottish Parliament resulting from the Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill, agrees to— (a) the following expenditure payable out of the Scottish Consolidated Fund— (i) expenditure of the Scottish Administration and Audit Scotland in consequence of the Act, and (ii) increases attributable to the Act in the sums payable out of the Fund by or under any other Act, (b) payments into the Fund and to the Scottish Ministers, and (c) charges imposed by Audit Scotland in respect of the exercise of its functions. The Presiding Officer: The next question is, that motion S1M-176, in the name of Tom McCabe, be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament, for the purposes of any Act of the Scottish Parliament resulting from the Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill, agrees to— (a) the following expenditure payable out of the Scottish Consolidated Fund— (i) expenditure of the Scottish Administration and Audit Scotland in consequence of the Act, and (ii) increases attributable to the Act in the sums payable out of the Fund by or under any other Act, (b) payments into the Fund and to the Scottish Ministers, and (c) charges imposed by Audit Scotland in respect of the exercise of its functions. The Presiding Officer: The next question is, that motion S1M-176, in the name of Tom McCabe, be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C709098", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26907, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 773.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 773.0, "ID": 26907, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 809.0, "ContributionID": 709098, "EditedText": "May I raise a point of order?", "EditedTextHTML": "May I raise a point of order?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709101", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26907, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 773.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 773.0, "ID": 26907, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 815.0, "ContributionID": 709101, "EditedText": "That is not a point of order for me; it is a point of practice for the Executive. The Parliament will debate the concordats next week. I have not been told when they will be available to us, but no doubt the point has been noted. We now move to motion S1M", "EditedTextHTML": "That is not a point of order for me; it is a point of practice for the Executive. The Parliament will debate the concordats next week. I have not been told when they will be available to us, but no doubt the point has been noted. We now move to motion S1M

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709105", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26907, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 773.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 773.0, "ID": 26907, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 823.0, "ContributionID": 709105, "EditedText": "The point that I made is that that is not an answer which the member can get from me, as I know no more than he does about when the documents will be ready. Can Mr Smith enlighten us?", "EditedTextHTML": "The point that I made is that that is not an answer which the member can get from me, as I know no more than he does about when the documents will be ready. Can Mr Smith enlighten us?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709108", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mallaig Road", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26908, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 829.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 829.0, "ID": 26908, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 830.0, "ContributionID": 709108, "EditedText": "The final item today is motion S1M-140 in the name of Fergus Ewing, on the upgrading of the Mallaig road. The debate will be concluded after 30 minutes without any question being put.", "EditedTextHTML": "The final item today is motion S1M-140 in the name of Fergus Ewing, on the upgrading of the Mallaig road. The debate will be concluded after 30 minutes without any question being put.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709109", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mallaig Road", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26908, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 829.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 829.0, "ID": 26908, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 832.0, "ContributionID": 709109, "EditedText": "Motion debated,", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion debated,

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709110", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mallaig Road", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26908, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 829.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 829.0, "ID": 26908, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 833.0, "ContributionID": 709110, "EditedText": "That the Parliament calls upon the Scottish Executive to make the planned upgrading and improvement of the remaining single track sections of the A830 road between Mallaig and Fort William a top priority when it announces the results of the strategic roads review.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament calls upon the Scottish Executive to make the planned upgrading and improvement of the remaining single track sections of the A830 road between Mallaig and Fort William a top priority when it announces the results of the strategic roads review.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C709112", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mallaig Road", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26908, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 829.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 829.0, "ID": 26908, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 837.0, "ContributionID": 709112, "EditedText": "There have been six requests to speak. If members keep their remarks to under three minutes, they will all get in.", "EditedTextHTML": "There have been six requests to speak. If members keep their remarks to under three minutes, they will all get in.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2068E171P304C709117", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mallaig Road", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26908, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 829.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 829.0, "ID": 26908, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stone, Jamie", "ID": 2068, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie Stone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 848.0, "ContributionID": 709117, "EditedText": "I shall let Tavish speak first, as he is our party's spokesman. Can I do that?", "EditedTextHTML": "I shall let Tavish speak first, as he is our party's spokesman. Can I do that?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2068E171P304C709120", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mallaig Road", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26908, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 829.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 829.0, "ID": 26908, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stone, Jamie", "ID": 2068, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie Stone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Stone: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 855.0, "ContributionID": 709120, "EditedText": "Hear, hear.", "EditedTextHTML": "Hear, hear.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2066E64P88C709123", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mallaig Road", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26908, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 829.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 829.0, "ID": 26908, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McGrigor, Jamie", "ID": 2066, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie McGrigor", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Jamie McGrigor (Highlands and Islands) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 862.0, "ContributionID": 709123, "EditedText": "Thank you, Mr Reid. It is a coincidence that this debate on the Mallaig road should arise now, as I was on that road just the other day, stuck behind a huge fish lorry on one of the single-track sections. I think that the driver was probably Spanish—the lorry certainly was—as he took no notice of, or perhaps could not understand, the sign suggesting that slow vehicles should use the passing places to allow overtaking. Although I was very happy to be among such beautiful scenery, I reflected that, if I had been a tourist trying to catch a ferry to Skye, Barra or Lochboisdale, I would have been a shade irritated if I had missed it because of the lorry. In fact, I was travelling in the opposite direction, from Mallaig to Fort William. I had started my journey in North Uist, where I had filled up my car with diesel that cost 89p a litre, which made me a shade irritated, too. The Mallaig road is special. As Fergus said, it is the only single-track trunk road in Scotland, and it is an important artery for the fishing community in the area and to the many tourists who flock to the area each year and whom we in the Highlands want to encourage. Mallaig services many communities—such as the Knoydart peninsula— by boat; as the road is a main road in principle, it should be upgraded to one in practice. In the summer, tourist cars and buses mix with the heavy commercial traffic of fish lorries, fish farm lorries and timber extraction lorries, and there are many minor bumps and accidents, especially on the single-track sections. Many loads of sheep and cattle also travel the roads to the market in Fort William. The upgrading of that section would significantly lessen the time taken by service vehicles to reach Mallaig, and I have no doubt that Mallaig and the surrounding communities would prosper from improved and speedier access. On fuel, it is interesting to note that an average car will do about seven miles less per gallon on a single-track road than on ordinary roads. As I keep reiterating, the key to prosperity in the Western Isles and the western Highlands is cheaper fuel and improved access, and the Mallaig road is a classic example of what we are all talking about.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you, Mr Reid. It is a coincidence that this debate on the Mallaig road should arise now, as I was on that road just the other day, stuck behind a huge fish lorry on one of the single-track sections. I think that the driver was probably Spanish—the lorry certainly was—as he took no notice of, or perhaps could not understand, the sign suggesting that slow vehicles should use the passing places to allow overtaking. Although I was very happy to be among such beautiful scenery, I reflected that, if I had been a tourist trying to catch a ferry to Skye, Barra or Lochboisdale, I would have been a shade irritated if I had missed it because of the lorry. In fact, I was travelling in the

opposite direction, from Mallaig to Fort William. I had started my journey in North Uist, where I had filled up my car with diesel that cost 89p a litre, which made me a shade irritated, too.

The Mallaig road is special. As Fergus said, it is the only single-track trunk road in Scotland, and it is an important artery for the fishing community in the area and to the many tourists who flock to the area each year and whom we in the Highlands want to encourage. Mallaig services many communities—such as the Knoydart peninsula— by boat; as the road is a main road in principle, it should be upgraded to one in practice.

In the summer, tourist cars and buses mix with the heavy commercial traffic of fish lorries, fish farm lorries and timber extraction lorries, and there are many minor bumps and accidents, especially on the single-track sections. Many loads of sheep and cattle also travel the roads to the market in Fort William. The upgrading of that section would significantly lessen the time taken by service vehicles to reach Mallaig, and I have no doubt that Mallaig and the surrounding communities would prosper from improved and speedier access.

On fuel, it is interesting to note that an average car will do about seven miles less per gallon on a single-track road than on ordinary roads. As I keep reiterating, the key to prosperity in the Western Isles and the western Highlands is cheaper fuel and improved access, and the Mallaig road is a classic example of what we are all talking about.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1840E82P158C709125", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mallaig Road", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26908, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 829.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 829.0, "ID": 26908, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macmillan, Maureen", "ID": 1840, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Maureen Macmillan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Maureen Macmillan (Highlands and Islands) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 868.0, "ContributionID": 709125, "EditedText": "I had lots of cousins who lived in Mallaig— they were all railwaymen, so perhaps they would not be pleased that I am talking about road transport—and my grandmother came from Arisaig, so I know the Mallaig road well. Like Dr Ewing, I do not want to go over all the statistics again, but the road should have been upgraded to a double-track road years ago, because it serves one of the country's premier fishing ports and is one of the most popular tourist routes. I want to broaden the argument. The Mallaig road is only the worst symptom of a severe Highland problem. The Highland roads, both trunk and local, have suffered years of neglect or at best piecemeal development—although I appreciate that sometimes piecemeal work is preferable for environmental reasons. As the arteries of communication and movement of goods in the north and west, these roads are crucial and many are totally inadequate for the kind of modern economy we want in the Highlands. I am thinking of, for example, the effect of the A9 north of Dornoch on communications with Sutherland and Caithness, and the winding and accident-prone A82 down the side of Loch Ness. Other examples are the roads in Argyll, one of the most difficult counties in terms of internal communication, and the hated A96, the so-called killer road, from Inverness to Aberdeen, which goes through Margaret Ewing's constituency. She may feel that it needs upgrading almost as much as the Mallaig road does. As for local authority roads, Highland Council statistics show the downward trend over the past 20 years in terms of the money available for spending on road maintenance. That has been a false economy. A particular concern is that many rural roads are no longer adequate for the heavy vehicles moving fish, livestock and timber. The state of the bridges on local roads is particularly serious—I believe that there will be an emergency when the maturing timber crop is extracted, as the bridges will not cope. Bringing the bridges up to standard is crucial and work on them could also be invaluable in providing extra employment in crofting communities. We must take an overview of Highland infrastructure needs. The Mallaig road is important and needs urgent improvement, but we cannot look at roads in isolation. We must consider the role of an integrated transport system and assess how goods are best and most efficiently moved. I know that the forestry industry, for example, is looking at both rail and sea initiatives where rural roads are inadequate for heavy loads. The importance of improving infrastructure in the Highlands and Islands has been recognised in the European Community's consideration of priorities for the use of structural funds. I hope that, whatever the outcome of the strategic roads review, we can draw down money from Government, local government and Europe to make a real difference to the economy of the Highlands by ensuring that we have an infrastructure fit for the 21st century.", "EditedTextHTML": "I had lots of cousins who lived in Mallaig— they were all railwaymen, so perhaps they would not be pleased that I am talking about road transport—and my grandmother came from Arisaig, so I know the Mallaig road well. Like Dr Ewing, I do not want to go over all the statistics again, but the road should have been upgraded to a double-track road years ago, because it serves one of the country's premier fishing ports and is one of the most popular tourist routes.

I want to broaden the argument. The Mallaig road is only the worst symptom of a severe Highland problem. The Highland roads, both trunk and local, have suffered years of neglect or at best piecemeal development—although I appreciate that sometimes piecemeal work is preferable for environmental reasons. As the arteries of communication and movement of goods in the north and west, these roads are crucial and many are totally inadequate for the kind of modern economy we want in the Highlands.

I am thinking of, for example, the effect of the A9 north of Dornoch on communications with Sutherland and Caithness, and the winding and accident-prone A82 down the side of Loch Ness. Other examples are the roads in Argyll, one of the most difficult counties in terms of internal communication, and the hated A96, the so-called killer road, from Inverness to Aberdeen, which goes through Margaret Ewing's constituency. She may feel that it needs upgrading almost as much as the Mallaig road does.

As for local authority roads, Highland Council statistics show the downward trend over the past 20 years in terms of the money available for spending on road maintenance. That has been a false economy. A particular concern is that many rural roads are no longer adequate for the heavy vehicles moving fish, livestock and timber. The state of the bridges on local roads is particularly serious—I believe that there will be an emergency when the maturing timber crop is extracted, as the bridges will not cope. Bringing the bridges up to standard is crucial and work on them could also be invaluable in providing extra employment in crofting communities.

We must take an overview of Highland infrastructure needs. The Mallaig road is important and needs urgent improvement, but we cannot look at roads in isolation. We must consider the role of an integrated transport system and assess how goods are best and most efficiently moved. I know that the forestry industry, for example, is

looking at both rail and sea initiatives where rural roads are inadequate for heavy loads.

The importance of improving infrastructure in the Highlands and Islands has been recognised in the European Community's consideration of priorities for the use of structural funds. I hope that, whatever the outcome of the strategic roads review, we can draw down money from Government, local government and Europe to make a real difference to the economy of the Highlands by ensuring that we have an infrastructure fit for the 21st century.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C709128", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mallaig Road", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26908, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 829.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 829.0, "ID": 26908, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 875.0, "ContributionID": 709128, "EditedText": "I have a very brief point, Jamie. I look forward to Alasdair's announcement that it will be top of the list. In a written reply to Murray Tosh, Jack McConnell said that the budget for motorway and trunk road improvements in 1996-97 was £120 million, that this year it was £23 million and that next year it would be £14 million. That is the real commitment to the A830, as opposed to the electoral promises that Fergus and I heard.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have a very brief point, Jamie. I look forward to Alasdair's announcement that it will be top of the list. In a written reply to Murray Tosh, Jack McConnell said that the budget for motorway and trunk road improvements in 1996-97 was £120 million, that this year it was £23 million and that next year it would be £14 million. That is the real commitment to the A830, as opposed to the electoral promises that Fergus and I heard.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2068E171P304C709130", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mallaig Road", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26908, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 829.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 829.0, "ID": 26908, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stone, Jamie", "ID": 2068, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie Stone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 880.0, "ContributionID": 709130, "EditedText": "Thank you. The good lady will recall that the very heavy cuts in Highland Council's road budget started in the last years of the previous government. Maureen is correct to say that this is part of a much wider problem for road budgets generally. We are putting off the evil day when a truly colossal bill will land in our laps. It is hard for the minister because there is only so much cash. The best thing would be to take a look at the overall priorities within Sarah Boyack's budget. As a good highlander, the deputy minister will not fall for John Farquhar Munro's tricks; if Mr Munro tries to put him in a lorry, he will be able to outsmart him. I think that the important thing is to take a look at the issue because, if we do not, we will reap the whirlwind.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you. The good lady will recall that the very heavy cuts in Highland Council's road budget started in the last years of the previous government.

Maureen is correct to say that this is part of a much wider problem for road budgets generally.

We are putting off the evil day when a truly colossal bill will land in our laps. It is hard for the minister because there is only so much cash. The best thing would be to take a look at the overall priorities within Sarah Boyack's budget.

As a good highlander, the deputy minister will not fall for John Farquhar Munro's tricks; if Mr Munro tries to put him in a lorry, he will be able to outsmart him. I think that the important thing is to take a look at the issue because, if we do not, we will reap the whirlwind.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C709134", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mallaig Road", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26908, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 829.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 829.0, "ID": 26908, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 889.0, "ContributionID": 709134, "EditedText": "Does the minister disagree with Jack McConnell's figures that in 1997 the roads budget for motorway and trunk road improvement was £120 million, this year it is £23 million and next year it will be £14 million?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the minister disagree with Jack McConnell's figures that in 1997 the roads budget for motorway and trunk road improvement was £120 million, this year it is £23 million and next year it will be £14 million?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1889E118P162C709135", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mallaig Road", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26908, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 829.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 829.0, "ID": 26908, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morrison, Mr Alasdair", "ID": 1889, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Western Isles" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morrison", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Morrison: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 891.0, "ContributionID": 709135, "EditedText": "I refer Mary Scanlon to the answer given by my colleague Jamie Stone, who rightly pointed out that under the Conservatives the new road building programme was funded by neglecting essential maintenance: that is well documented. Some difficult decisions on priorities are required. Where does the A830 fit into this? The A830, covering the 45 miles from Fort William to Mallaig, is one of the most remote and lightly trafficked trunk roads in Scotland. Nevertheless, it plays a vital role in the area's transport system, serving local residents—we have heard the well- rehearsed arguments today—a significant and increased number of tourists, especially in the summer months, and businesses in the area, not least hauliers taking fish to markets in the south. The eastern half of the route, from Fort William to Lochailort, has, for a number of years, offered reasonable driving conditions. Since the 1980s, attention has focused on the 22 miles from Lochailort to Mallaig. At that time, that half of the route was largely single track and followed a tortuous line through some of Scotland's most sensitive countryside. Improvements in the 1980s, going west from Lochailort to the stretch coming out of Mallaig, reduced the single-track element. That process continued with the completion of the Morar bypass in 1993 and the opening of a new stretch of road between Polnish bridge and Loch Nan Uamh last year. Fergus mentioned Loch Nan Uamh—if he needs assistance with the pronunciation, I refer him to the mother of the Parliament. She will be glad to help. Those schemes have reduced the single-track section to nine miles between Loch Nan Uamh and Kinsadel and two separate proposals to remove the single-track road have been developed. The five miles from Arisaig to Loch Nan Uamh pass through some of the most sensitive landscape along the route. This, combined with the difficulty of identifying another alignment for the route, means that the preferred way of dual tracking the road is through a series of on-line improvements, identified through a route action plan study, which was completed recently. Those improvements could be implemented in a phased manner, as a series of minor improvements outside the scope of the strategic roads review. The total cost, Mr Ewing, is estimated at about £10 million. Decisions have still to be taken on which minor trunk road improvement schemes should proceed in future years, so the upgrading of the route between Arisaig and Loch Nan Uamh does not yet feature in any forward programme. However, that will be considered alongside competing priorities. Inevitably, given the pressures across the trunk road network, there will be intense competition for the available resources but, again, I assure those supporting the improvements—and there are many of them—that the consideration will be full and fair. The other remaining single-track section is the four and a half miles from Arisaig to Kinsadel. That is the subject of a proposed off-line improvement scheme. The scheme has an estimated capital cost of £10 million and so qualifies as a major trunk road scheme. It is, therefore, included in the list of schemes under consideration in the strategic roads review. Sarah Boyack has said that she plans to report to Parliament on the review shortly, so it would be wrong of me to give advance indication of the conclusions.", "EditedTextHTML": "I refer Mary Scanlon to the answer given by my colleague Jamie Stone, who rightly pointed out that under the Conservatives the new road building programme was funded by neglecting essential maintenance: that is well documented.

Some difficult decisions on priorities are required. Where does the A830 fit into this? The A830, covering the 45 miles from Fort William to Mallaig, is one of the most remote and lightly trafficked trunk roads in Scotland. Nevertheless, it plays a vital role in the area's transport system, serving local residents—we have heard the well- rehearsed arguments today—a significant and increased number of tourists, especially in the summer months, and businesses in the area, not least hauliers taking fish to markets in the south.

The eastern half of the route, from Fort William to Lochailort, has, for a number of years, offered reasonable driving conditions. Since the 1980s, attention has focused on the 22 miles from Lochailort to Mallaig. At that time, that half of the route was largely single track and followed a tortuous line through some of Scotland's most sensitive countryside. Improvements in the 1980s, going west from Lochailort to the stretch coming out of Mallaig, reduced the single-track element. That process continued with the completion of the Morar bypass in 1993 and the opening of a new stretch of road between Polnish bridge and Loch Nan Uamh last year. Fergus mentioned Loch Nan Uamh—if he needs assistance with the pronunciation, I refer him to the mother of the Parliament. She will be glad to help.

Those schemes have reduced the single-track section to nine miles between Loch Nan Uamh and Kinsadel and two separate proposals to remove the single-track road have been developed. The five miles from Arisaig to Loch Nan Uamh pass through some of the most sensitive landscape along the route. This, combined with the difficulty of identifying another alignment for the route, means that the preferred way of dual tracking the road is through a series of on-line improvements, identified through a route action plan study, which was completed recently. Those improvements could be implemented in a phased manner, as a series of minor improvements outside the scope of the strategic roads review. The total cost, Mr Ewing, is estimated at about £10 million.

Decisions have still to be taken on which minor trunk road improvement schemes should proceed in future years, so the upgrading of the route between Arisaig and Loch Nan Uamh does not yet feature in any forward programme. However, that will be considered alongside competing priorities.

Inevitably, given the pressures across the trunk road network, there will be intense competition for the available resources but, again, I assure those supporting the improvements—and there are many of them—that the consideration will be full and fair.

The other remaining single-track section is the four and a half miles from Arisaig to Kinsadel. That is the subject of a proposed off-line improvement scheme. The scheme has an estimated capital cost of £10 million and so qualifies as a major trunk road scheme. It is, therefore, included in the list of schemes under consideration in the strategic roads review. Sarah Boyack has said that she plans to report to Parliament on the review shortly, so it would be wrong of me to give advance indication of the conclusions.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709139", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mallaig Road", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26908, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 829.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 829.0, "ID": 26908, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 899.0, "ContributionID": 709139, "EditedText": "Meeting closed at 17:38.", "EditedTextHTML": "Meeting closed at 17:38.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C708892", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Beattie Media", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26879, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 324.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 324.0, "ID": 26879, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 368.0, "ContributionID": 708892, "EditedText": "The First Minister referred to the fact that he has asked his officials to investigate the use of public relations companies and professional lobbyists, which Mr Salmond welcomed. Will the First Minister agree to publish a list of the contracts operated by Beattie Media on behalf of the Scottish Executive, local authorities, local enterprise companies, health boards and health trusts in Scotland, as well as specifying the value of each contract and stating whether they were secured by competitive tender?", "EditedTextHTML": "The First Minister referred to the fact that he has asked his officials to investigate the use of public relations companies and professional lobbyists, which Mr Salmond welcomed. Will the First Minister agree to publish a list of the contracts operated by Beattie Media on behalf of the

Scottish Executive, local authorities, local enterprise companies, health boards and health trusts in Scotland, as well as specifying the value of each contract and stating whether they were secured by competitive tender?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:01:27.8453423+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C709104", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26907, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 773.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 773.0, "ID": 26907, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 821.0, "ContributionID": 709104, "EditedText": "It is a point that arises from that made by Mr Neil. Will those documents be available to members of this Parliament at 11.30 am tomorrow? It is a clear question, and we are entitled to an answer if they are being released to the press tomorrow.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is a point that arises from that made by Mr Neil. Will those documents be available to members of this Parliament at 11.30 am tomorrow? It is a clear question, and we are entitled to an answer if they are being released to the press tomorrow.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:06:33.7651873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C708970", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26880, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26881, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 380.0, "QuestionHeading": "Petrol Pricing", "QuestionHeadingID": 26899, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 540.0, "DisplayOrder": 540.0, "ID": 26899, "ParentID": 26881 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fergus Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 543.0, "ContributionID": 708970, "EditedText": "Is the minister aware that in many parts of the Highlands and Islands the price of fuel is the highest in Europe, if not the world? Is he aware that even if the Office of Fair Trading makes a finding of profiteering, the regulatory mechanisms that Westminster has dictated— which include a reference to the Competition Commission, a reference to the OFT and a reference to the Department of Trade and Industry—mean that no progress can be made on the issue until the end of 2000? I received that date from the OFT this morning. Is the minister aware that that means nothing will happen to benefit motorists in the Highlands and Islands until the end of next year, at the earliest?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is the minister aware that in many parts of the Highlands and Islands the price of fuel is the highest in Europe, if not the world? Is he aware that even if the Office of Fair Trading makes a finding of profiteering, the regulatory mechanisms that Westminster has dictated— which include a reference to the Competition Commission, a reference to the OFT and a reference to the Department of Trade and Industry—mean that no progress can be made on the issue until the end of 2000? I received that date from the OFT this morning. Is the minister aware that that means nothing will happen to benefit motorists in the Highlands and Islands until the end of next year, at the earliest?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:00:09.4109084+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C708944", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26880, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26881, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 380.0, "QuestionHeading": "Pig Industry", "QuestionHeadingID": 26892, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 483.0, "DisplayOrder": 483.0, "ID": 26892, "ParentID": 26881 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "11. Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 484.0, "ContributionID": 708944, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what measures it plans to put in place to improve the competitiveness of the pig industry in Scotland. (S1O-398)", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what measures it plans to put in place to improve the competitiveness of the pig industry in Scotland. (S1O-398)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:02:32.7857179+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2110E214P424C708954", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26880, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26881, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 380.0, "QuestionHeading": "Late Payment", "QuestionHeadingID": 26895, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 506.0, "DisplayOrder": 506.0, "ID": 26895, "ParentID": 26881 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gibson, Kenneth", "ID": 2110, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenneth Gibson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "14. Mr Kenneth Gibson (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 507.0, "ContributionID": 708954, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will name the 10 local authorities, identified by the Forum of Private Business in Scotland on 12 July, who pay 35 per cent or more of their external invoices after 30 days. (S1O-382) The Deputy Minister for Local Government (Mr Frank McAveety): The Forum of Private Business in Scotland identified the following 10 authorities that pay 35 per cent or more of their invoices after 30 days: Dundee City Council, City of Edinburgh Council, Fife Council, City of Glasgow Council, Midlothian Council, North Lanarkshire Council, Renfrewshire Council, Scottish Borders Council, Stirling Council and West Lothian Council.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will name the 10 local authorities, identified by the Forum of Private Business in Scotland on 12 July, who pay 35 per cent or more of their external invoices after 30 days. (S1O-382) The Deputy Minister for Local Government (Mr Frank McAveety): The Forum of Private Business in Scotland identified the following 10 authorities that pay 35 per cent or more of their invoices after 30 days: Dundee City Council, City of Edinburgh Council, Fife Council, City of Glasgow Council, Midlothian Council, North Lanarkshire Council, Renfrewshire Council, Scottish Borders Council, Stirling Council and West Lothian Council.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:02:32.7857179+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2110E214P424C708957", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26880, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26881, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 380.0, "QuestionHeading": "Late Payment", "QuestionHeadingID": 26895, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 506.0, "DisplayOrder": 506.0, "ID": 26895, "ParentID": 26881 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gibson, Kenneth", "ID": 2110, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenneth Gibson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Gibson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 513.0, "ContributionID": 708957, "EditedText": "Why is the Minister for Finance not here to answer my question on his own behalf?", "EditedTextHTML": "Why is the Minister for Finance not here to answer my question on his own behalf?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:02:32.7857179+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C708752", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 62.0, "ContributionID": 708752, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:01:10.1212253+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C708756", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 71.0, "ContributionID": 708756, "EditedText": "I am sure that Mr Monteith would agree that teachers have embraced the concept of change. There has never been resistance to change from the teaching unions— that is not the issue. If additional resources had been available and if the education minister had put more money on the table in order to bridge the £8 million funding gap, does he agree that a compromise could have been entered into by COSLA and that agreement could have been found? If that had happened, we would not have been having this debate this morning.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sure that Mr Monteith would agree that teachers have embraced the concept of change. There has never been resistance to change from the teaching unions— that is not the issue. If additional resources had been available and if the education minister had put more money on the table in order to bridge the £8 million funding gap, does he agree that a compromise could have been entered into by COSLA and that agreement could have been found? If that had happened, we would not have been having this debate this morning.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:01:10.1212253+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C708801", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 175.0, "ContributionID": 708801, "EditedText": "Malcolm's speech has opened in a positive fashion. He says that he is glad that the Executive has distanced itself from the offer. Might it not have been more helpful if Sam Galbraith and the Executive had distanced themselves from the offer some weeks ago, told COSLA that parts of the offer were unacceptable and provided COSLA with the wherewithal to compromise on the most unacceptable parts of it?", "EditedTextHTML": "Malcolm's speech has opened in a positive fashion. He says that he is glad that the Executive has distanced itself from the offer. Might it not have been more helpful if Sam Galbraith and the Executive had distanced themselves from the offer some weeks ago, told COSLA that parts of the offer were unacceptable and provided COSLA with the wherewithal to compromise on the most unacceptable parts of it?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:01:10.1212253+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C708810", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 196.0, "ContributionID": 708810, "EditedText": "Would Mr Macintosh mind explaining how Mr McCrone, the chair of the new committee of inquiry, can gain an insight into the feelings and experiences of classroom teachers when there is no classroom teacher or representative of the teaching unions on the committee? Can he answer that question, given that so far this morning none of his colleagues has been able to do so?", "EditedTextHTML": "Would Mr Macintosh mind explaining how Mr McCrone, the chair of the new committee of inquiry, can gain an insight into the feelings and experiences of classroom teachers when there is no classroom teacher or representative of the teaching unions on the committee? Can he answer that question, given that so far this morning none of his colleagues has been able to do so?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:01:10.1212253+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C708817", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 210.0, "ContributionID": 708817, "EditedText": "I am giving you an opportunity to withdraw the comment that you have just made because it is not founded in fact.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am giving you an opportunity to withdraw the comment that you have just made because it is not founded in fact.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:01:10.1212253+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C708842", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 264.0, "ContributionID": 708842, "EditedText": "Despite the Executive's best efforts, we have had an extremely constructive debate, which vindicates the SNP's decision to use its Opposition time to bring this matter before the Parliament. Mary Mulligan said that she regretted the timing of this debate. I repeat what I said in my opening speech: initiating this debate was the only way in which the SNP could give Parliament the opportunity to debate this issue. Last week, the minister presented proposals behind the protection of a ministerial statement and refused to open them up for debate, even though, as Dennis Canavan said, they should have been for this Parliament to decide on. The SNP was right to bring this matter before Parliament. Teachers and parents will be grateful for that decision. As I predicted, Sam Galbraith completely ignored the issue that is at the heart of the debate. He chose instead to concentrate on other developments in education, as though they somehow take place in a vacuum. He again refused point-blank to get to the heart of the matter. It was interesting to note that he tried, as he did last week, to distance himself from the COSLA offer to teachers, although for the past few months he has praised the offer and urged teachers to support it. He refused again to accept that the offer was deeply flawed and that teachers were right to reject it for sound educational reasons. He has also refused to confirm that the offer is now off the table and will not be brought back in its current form by the committee of inquiry. I was delighted to hear Sam Galbraith's proposals for the establishment of an education forum. I have pressed him for details on that since May. I look forward to flesh being put on the bones of that proposal—sooner rather than later. Parents and teachers will note Sam Galbraith's failure to answer any of the key questions that were posed. He failed to answer the key question about resources. He did not say from where the missing £8 million would have come if the offer had been accepted. He did not say how COSLA could have entered into further negotiations with a view to compromise when, quite simply, it did not have the resources to do so. He talked about extra money in education, but refused, as did his deputy in question time last week, to explain why this Government is spending less on education as a proportion of gross domestic product than the Tories did at the start of the 1990s. The minister also refused to answer a question that was put to him by several members from across this Parliament, including his colleague Malcolm Chisholm, on the lack of representatives on the committee of inquiry of any teaching union or of classroom teachers. Maureen Macmillan thought that the committee of inquiry was a chance in a lifetime—I remember that the same thing was said about the millennium review. If it were the chance of a lifetime, I would have thought that the Executive would have been determined to ensure that, from the outset, the inquiry had public confidence and the confidence of all partners in education. Why has the Executive ensured that there is no representation from the people who, Sam Galbraith claims, really matter in education—the teachers—especially as there is local authority representation and the directors of education and Her Majesty's inspectorate will act as advisers to the committee? The deputy minister will be aware that one place on the committee will be filled only after discussions between Sam Galbraith and Gavin McCrone. Will the deputy minister give a commitment that, in the light of the views that have been expressed across the Parliament, the remaining place will be filled by a representative of the teaching unions? I hope that, in summing up, the deputy minister will break the pattern of the morning by answering that question. If he does, he might be able to salvage something from the mess that he has made. Sam Galbraith avoided saying why he would not let the committee of inquiry decide on the future of the SJNC. Mr Paterson outlined some of the good things that the SJNC has done. Nobody would argue that there is no room for reform, but for Mr Galbraith to criticise the SJNC is like a bad workman blaming his tools. The problem was not the negotiating machinery; it was the offer. If the minister is so convinced that the negotiating machinery is defective, he should be prepared to trust that view and let the committee of inquiry consider the matter. I make a plea to the Executive to recognise that the morale of teachers is at rock bottom. A profession that is regularly criticised for being resistant to change has implemented more change over the past 10 years than any other profession in this country. Moreover, that has happened while teachers' pay has been steadily eroded relative to that of other professions. When the teachers take a stand and reject by a margin of 98 per cent an offer that was defective— as has been demonstrated by members across this Parliament—the Executive's answer is petulantly to remove their negotiating rights. Does Sam Galbraith now model himself on Ken Baker, the former English Tory education secretary, who described removing teachers' negotiating rights as \"absolutely extreme stuff\"? This Executive must go back to the drawing board. It must stop working with threats. It must withdraw the threat to the SJNC and allow the matter to be negotiated for this year within the SJNC, with the resources to fund a proper pay settlement. Through its democratic structures, this Parliament should then be allowed to decide how the outstanding issues in the millennium review are to be taken forward. Everybody in education could have confidence in that process; we might make progress. It saddens me that teachers will have taken no heart from the minister's speech. I hope that, in summing up, the deputy minister will put that right.", "EditedTextHTML": "Despite the Executive's best efforts, we have had an extremely constructive debate, which vindicates the SNP's decision to use its Opposition time to bring this matter before the Parliament.

Mary Mulligan said that she regretted the timing of this debate. I repeat what I said in my opening speech: initiating this debate was the only way in which the SNP could give Parliament the opportunity to debate this issue. Last week, the minister presented proposals behind the protection of a ministerial statement and refused to open them up for debate, even though, as Dennis Canavan said, they should have been for this Parliament to decide on. The SNP was right to bring this matter before Parliament. Teachers and parents will be grateful for that decision.

As I predicted, Sam Galbraith completely ignored the issue that is at the heart of the debate. He chose instead to concentrate on other developments in education, as though they somehow take place in a vacuum. He again refused point-blank to get to the heart of the matter. It was interesting to note that he tried, as he did last week, to distance himself from the COSLA offer to teachers, although for the past few months he has praised the offer and urged teachers to support it. He refused again to accept that the offer was deeply flawed and that teachers were right to reject it for sound educational reasons. He has also refused to confirm that the offer is now off the table and will not be brought back in its current form by the committee of inquiry.

I was delighted to hear Sam Galbraith's proposals for the establishment of an education forum. I have pressed him for details on that since

May. I look forward to flesh being put on the bones of that proposal—sooner rather than later.

Parents and teachers will note Sam Galbraith's failure to answer any of the key questions that were posed. He failed to answer the key question about resources. He did not say from where the missing £8 million would have come if the offer had been accepted. He did not say how COSLA could have entered into further negotiations with a view to compromise when, quite simply, it did not have the resources to do so. He talked about extra money in education, but refused, as did his deputy in question time last week, to explain why this Government is spending less on education as a proportion of gross domestic product than the Tories did at the start of the 1990s.

The minister also refused to answer a question that was put to him by several members from across this Parliament, including his colleague Malcolm Chisholm, on the lack of representatives on the committee of inquiry of any teaching union or of classroom teachers.

Maureen Macmillan thought that the committee of inquiry was a chance in a lifetime—I remember that the same thing was said about the millennium review. If it were the chance of a lifetime, I would have thought that the Executive would have been determined to ensure that, from the outset, the inquiry had public confidence and the confidence of all partners in education.

Why has the Executive ensured that there is no representation from the people who, Sam Galbraith claims, really matter in education—the teachers—especially as there is local authority representation and the directors of education and Her Majesty's inspectorate will act as advisers to the committee?

The deputy minister will be aware that one place on the committee will be filled only after discussions between Sam Galbraith and Gavin McCrone. Will the deputy minister give a commitment that, in the light of the views that have been expressed across the Parliament, the remaining place will be filled by a representative of the teaching unions? I hope that, in summing up, the deputy minister will break the pattern of the morning by answering that question. If he does, he might be able to salvage something from the mess that he has made.

Sam Galbraith avoided saying why he would not let the committee of inquiry decide on the future of the SJNC. Mr Paterson outlined some of the good things that the SJNC has done. Nobody would argue that there is no room for reform, but for Mr Galbraith to criticise the SJNC is like a bad workman blaming his tools. The problem was not the negotiating machinery; it was the offer. If the minister is so convinced that the negotiating machinery is defective, he should be prepared to trust that view and let the committee of inquiry consider the matter.

I make a plea to the Executive to recognise that the morale of teachers is at rock bottom. A profession that is regularly criticised for being resistant to change has implemented more change over the past 10 years than any other profession in this country. Moreover, that has happened while teachers' pay has been steadily eroded relative to that of other professions.

When the teachers take a stand and reject by a margin of 98 per cent an offer that was defective— as has been demonstrated by members across this Parliament—the Executive's answer is petulantly to remove their negotiating rights. Does Sam Galbraith now model himself on Ken Baker, the former English Tory education secretary, who described removing teachers' negotiating rights as \"absolutely extreme stuff\"?

This Executive must go back to the drawing board. It must stop working with threats. It must withdraw the threat to the SJNC and allow the matter to be negotiated for this year within the SJNC, with the resources to fund a proper pay settlement. Through its democratic structures, this Parliament should then be allowed to decide how the outstanding issues in the millennium review are to be taken forward. Everybody in education could have confidence in that process; we might make progress.

It saddens me that teachers will have taken no heart from the minister's speech. I hope that, in summing up, the deputy minister will put that right.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:00:03.7213861+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1860E111P160C709115", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mallaig Road", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26908, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 829.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 829.0, "ID": 26908, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Grant, Rhoda", "ID": 1860, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Rhoda Grant", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Rhoda Grant (Highlands and Islands) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 844.0, "ContributionID": 709115, "EditedText": "I thank Fergus Ewing for introducing the debate. I am pleased to support his motion. This is not a recent concern, as Fergus Ewing said. Lord Russell-Johnston mentioned the subject in his maiden speech to the House of Commons in 1964, and David Stewart has campaigned tirelessly for improvements to the road. He took two ministers to see the road for themselves and I am also pleased to say that Sarah Boyack took the time to go and see it for herself during the summer. The community has fought hard to have the road improved. It set up the Mallaig road action group and sought to use reason and persuasion to help its cause. It has spent a huge amount of time and resources promoting the need for improvement, and as time elapses, patience is beginning to run out. As Fergus said, the case is special because the road is the only single-track trunk road in Scotland. Those in the local community are not asking for a motorway or even for a dual carriageway—they just want a double-track road. The stretch of road is only 12 miles long. The part from Morar to Arisaig requires only funding as planning considerations have already been met. The second stretch is currently being examined under the route action plan, but it is important that both sections are completed. Improvements have already been carried out on a piecemeal basis, but they must be completed now. I represent the Highlands and Islands, and I am aware of the problems with roads and of the dependency of rural areas on roads. Although I welcome the improvements that will be made to public transport through the rural transport fund, I understand that, because of sparsity in the Highlands and Islands, it is difficult to move dependency away from road transport where there is no practical alternative. Mallaig is a major fishing port, as Fergus said, and I welcome the large investments in the harbour that have been made through objective 1 funding. The harbour has been developed to support increased fish landings. However, Mallaig remains the only port in the country where one suffers sea sickness on the way to the sea. The problems are twofold. First, because of the improvements, larger boats are landing at Mallaig: up to 500 tonnes of fish per boat can be landed there. Such a catch requires 31 articulated lorries to transport it. If it is taken into account that up to three boats could land in a night, that could lead to up to 93 articulated lorries using the road in one night. Imagine the problems that that would cause during the tourist season. Secondly, there are community safety implications. If any of those lorries go off the road, they block the only access to Mallaig for long periods. Emergency services are unable to enter or leave Mallaig. Mallaig also has strong ties with the western isles, through ferry links to Skye, Barra and the smaller isles. To assist tourism and fishing, we must improve the road. I know that we do not have a never-ending supply of money for roads, but we must meet that challenge. I ask the Scottish Executive, local government, transport providers and local industries to join in partnership to find a way of funding those much-needed improvements.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank Fergus Ewing for introducing the debate. I am pleased to support his motion.

This is not a recent concern, as Fergus Ewing said. Lord Russell-Johnston mentioned the subject in his maiden speech to the House of Commons in 1964, and David Stewart has campaigned tirelessly for improvements to the road. He took two ministers to see the road for themselves and I am also pleased to say that Sarah Boyack took the time to go and see it for herself during the summer.

The community has fought hard to have the road improved. It set up the Mallaig road action group and sought to use reason and persuasion to help its cause. It has spent a huge amount of time and resources promoting the need for improvement, and as time elapses, patience is beginning to run out.

As Fergus said, the case is special because the road is the only single-track trunk road in Scotland. Those in the local community are not asking for a motorway or even for a dual carriageway—they just want a double-track road.

The stretch of road is only 12 miles long. The part from Morar to Arisaig requires only funding as planning considerations have already been met. The second stretch is currently being examined under the route action plan, but it is important that both sections are completed. Improvements have already been carried out on a piecemeal basis, but they must be completed now.

I represent the Highlands and Islands, and I am aware of the problems with roads and of the dependency of rural areas on roads. Although I welcome the improvements that will be made to public transport through the rural transport fund, I understand that, because of sparsity in the Highlands and Islands, it is difficult to move dependency away from road transport where there is no practical alternative.

Mallaig is a major fishing port, as Fergus said, and I welcome the large investments in the harbour that have been made through objective 1 funding. The harbour has been developed to support increased fish landings. However, Mallaig remains the only port in the country where one suffers sea sickness on the way to the sea. The problems are twofold.

First, because of the improvements, larger boats are landing at Mallaig: up to 500 tonnes of fish per boat can be landed there. Such a catch requires

31 articulated lorries to transport it. If it is taken into account that up to three boats could land in a night, that could lead to up to 93 articulated lorries using the road in one night. Imagine the problems that that would cause during the tourist season.

Secondly, there are community safety implications. If any of those lorries go off the road, they block the only access to Mallaig for long periods. Emergency services are unable to enter or leave Mallaig.

Mallaig also has strong ties with the western isles, through ferry links to Skye, Barra and the smaller isles. To assist tourism and fishing, we must improve the road. I know that we do not have a never-ending supply of money for roads, but we must meet that challenge. I ask the Scottish Executive, local government, transport providers and local industries to join in partnership to find a way of funding those much-needed improvements.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:00:21.9656621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C708856", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 293.0, "ContributionID": 708856, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:00:06.0659627+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2029E47P167C708730", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Henry, Hugh", "ID": 2029, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Hugh Henry", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Hugh Henry: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 17.0, "ContributionID": 708730, "EditedText": "Will Ms Sturgeon tell us whether the SNP recommends paying in full the demand from the teachers' unions for an 8 per cent pay rise this year? Is the SNP prepared to support collective bargaining between employers and employees, or does Ms Sturgeon believe that the Scottish Parliament should interfere in that process?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Ms Sturgeon tell us whether the SNP recommends paying in full the demand from the teachers' unions for an 8 per cent pay rise this year? Is the SNP prepared to support collective bargaining between employers and employees, or does Ms Sturgeon believe that the Scottish Parliament should interfere in that process?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "C708723", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Thursday 30 September 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26876, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26876, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 2.0, "ContributionID": 708723, "EditedText": "THE PRESIDING OFFICER opened the meeting at 09:31", "EditedTextHTML": "[THE PRESIDING OFFICER opened the meeting at 09:31]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C708724", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Thursday 30 September 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26876, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26876, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell (South of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 3.0, "ContributionID": 708724, "EditedText": "On a point of order. Presiding Officer, you are aware that this is our third non-Executive day, and that the Procedures Committee has been discussing the issue of who should wind up on such days. On the first occasion, when allowing the Executive to wind up, you said that you had not set a precedent. Will you consider allowing the Opposition to wind up on this occasion, so that the Procedures Committee can make a judgment based on both precedents?", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. Presiding Officer, you are aware that this is our third non-Executive day, and that the Procedures Committee has been discussing the issue of who should wind up on such days. On the first occasion, when allowing the Executive to wind up, you said that you had not set a precedent. Will you consider allowing the Opposition to wind up on this occasion, so that the Procedures Committee can make a judgment based on both precedents?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708726", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 8.0, "ContributionID": 708726, "EditedText": "The first item of business this morning is a non- Executive debate on motion S1M-172, in the name of Mr Alex Salmond, on education, and amendments to that motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "The first item of business this morning is a non- Executive debate on motion S1M-172, in the name of Mr Alex Salmond, on education, and amendments to that motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708734", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 25.0, "ContributionID": 708734, "EditedText": "Before I call on the Minister for Children and Education to reply and move his amendment, I wish to remind members that yesterday's opening speeches overran by a total of a quarter of an hour, cutting out three back benchers who wanted to speak. We are on time this morning; I hope that the two other front-bench speakers will also remain on time. I shall give signals from the chair if they do not. I have said that by way of allowing time for the lectern to be moved.", "EditedTextHTML": "Before I call on the Minister for Children and Education to reply and move his amendment, I wish to remind members that yesterday's opening speeches overran by a total of a quarter of an hour, cutting out three back benchers who wanted to speak. We are on time this morning; I hope that the two other front-bench speakers will also remain on time. I shall give signals from the chair if they do not.

I have said that by way of allowing time for the lectern to be moved.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C708735", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Children and Education (Mr Sam Galbraith): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 28.0, "ContributionID": 708735, "EditedText": "I will try to keep to time. I was pleased that the SNP spokesman, Nicola Sturgeon, mentioned children—at least in her speech. One of the striking features of the motion is that it does not mention children once. Laughter. At that they laugh—I wish it to be noted on the record that SNP members laughed at the fact that their motion on education does not mention children.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will try to keep to time.

I was pleased that the SNP spokesman, Nicola Sturgeon, mentioned children—at least in her speech. One of the striking features of the motion is that it does not mention children once. [Laughter.] At that they laugh—I wish it to be noted on the record that SNP members laughed at the fact that their motion on education does not mention children.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C708737", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Galbraith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 32.0, "ContributionID": 708737, "EditedText": "No, I have just started. Please sit down. I welcome this opportunity to set out again the clear and positive thinking behind the Executive's decisions on the future of professional conditions of service for teachers in Scotland. A great deal has been spoken and written on the subject in recent weeks, much of it reiterated in the opening speech and most of it misleading. It must have caused unnecessary concern to many teachers and parents. Let me remind the Parliament of the background to our radical and imaginative strategic agenda for school education. Scotland's children are Scotland's future. Education is the highest priority in \"Making it work together\", our programme for government, which we published in early September. The programme reinforced our commitment to working together with parents, teachers and pupils to achieve a world-class reputation for Scottish education and to create the high standards in our schools that will be the foundation for success in the future. To make this vision a reality, we have initiated a radical improvement programme in all aspects of our schools. That includes work on developing the curriculum, on modernising assessment, on new ways of learning, on new forms of school organisation and on improving communications between schools and the communities and parents that they serve. Our programme is supported by a substantial injection of new resources. Overall, local authorities are budgeting to spend £2.715 billion on education this year. That is an increase of 8.1 per cent on the previous year. We have ensured that those resources are well used. More than half the money that we found in the comprehensive spending review—£377 million—was targeted through the excellence fund, which directly contributes to raising standards by providing support and assistance to children and teachers in the classroom. We recognise the need to work together with those who are charged with delivering education to our children. We have consulted on our plans and we continue to do so. Our approach is constructive and is designed to deliver improvement. We are not seeking to manufacture conflict; in all we do, we strive to avoid it. We want schools and local authorities to work together effectively. We do that for our children, because it is they and only they who are at the heart of our policies, and to do that—I agree with Ms Sturgeon on this— we must secure the best from our teachers. Successful schools depend on the professionalism, commitment and skill of the head teachers and teachers who manage and staff them. We are lucky in having many teachers of outstanding quality who are dedicated to their task. I take this opportunity to reaffirm my admiration for their work.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I have just started. Please sit down.

I welcome this opportunity to set out again the clear and positive thinking behind the Executive's decisions on the future of professional conditions of service for teachers in Scotland. A great deal has been spoken and written on the subject in recent weeks, much of it reiterated in the opening speech and most of it misleading. It must have caused unnecessary concern to many teachers and parents.

Let me remind the Parliament of the background to our radical and imaginative strategic agenda for school education. Scotland's children are Scotland's future. Education is the highest priority in \"Making it work together\", our programme for government, which we published in early September. The programme reinforced our commitment to working together with parents, teachers and pupils to achieve a world-class reputation for Scottish education and to create the high standards in our schools that will be the foundation for success in the future.

To make this vision a reality, we have initiated a radical improvement programme in all aspects of our schools. That includes work on developing the curriculum, on modernising assessment, on new ways of learning, on new forms of school organisation and on improving communications between schools and the communities and parents that they serve.

Our programme is supported by a substantial injection of new resources. Overall, local authorities are budgeting to spend £2.715 billion on education this year. That is an increase of 8.1 per cent on the previous year. We have ensured that those resources are well used. More than half the money that we found in the comprehensive spending review—£377 million—was targeted

through the excellence fund, which directly contributes to raising standards by providing support and assistance to children and teachers in the classroom.

We recognise the need to work together with those who are charged with delivering education to our children. We have consulted on our plans and we continue to do so.

Our approach is constructive and is designed to deliver improvement. We are not seeking to manufacture conflict; in all we do, we strive to avoid it. We want schools and local authorities to work together effectively.

We do that for our children, because it is they and only they who are at the heart of our policies, and to do that—I agree with Ms Sturgeon on this— we must secure the best from our teachers. Successful schools depend on the professionalism, commitment and skill of the head teachers and teachers who manage and staff them. We are lucky in having many teachers of outstanding quality who are dedicated to their task. I take this opportunity to reaffirm my admiration for their work.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708739", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 36.0, "ContributionID": 708739, "EditedText": "Order. Interventions are supposed to be brief.", "EditedTextHTML": "Order. Interventions are supposed to be brief.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C708740", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Galbraith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 38.0, "ContributionID": 708740, "EditedText": "Ms Sturgeon has already made her speech and she should be content with that, be a bit patient and let me deal with the matters before me. As part of our constructive approach, we are committed in the partnership agreement to establishing an education forum to review and raise standards in schools. I have carefully considered how we should implement that commitment. Our approach to raising standards depends centrally on teachers' practical experience and understanding of the process of teaching and learning. I want the forum to provide an opportunity for that, not as another standing advisory body or task force, but as part of a continuing participative process. I therefore propose that the education forum will build on the recent innovative and highly successful summit meetings with head teachers. I propose two forum meetings each year and that attendance at each forum should be widely drawn from head teachers and teachers from throughout Scotland. A priority will be to ensure that the practical experience of teachers can be balanced against the work of researchers on teaching and learning. I shall ask the existing National Education Research Forum to assist in that process. Our objective will be to improve our collective understanding of the implications of research for teaching and learning and the experience of children in our schools, and to ensure that research priorities properly reflect current experience in schools. Each forum will review items of current interest in the light of relevant practical and research experience and reach a view about the implications for further policy developments. I will also ensure that the discussion and its implications are widely disseminated to all interested parties. I will seek views as soon as possible on the detailed arrangements for the establishment of the forum and on issues that it might address in its first meetings. As before, the Education, Culture and Sport Committee will be consulted on this matter. For teachers to be able to provide an excellent and improving education for our children, their professional status must be enhanced. That is why a responsive and flexible system of professional conditions for teachers is essential. That system must reward excellence and encourage innovation and commitment. It must allow us to recruit and develop the teachers whom our children deserve and it must be able to adapt to new challenges and methods. We need a system in which professional conditions can regularly be reviewed and updated as circumstances change, without our schools suffering dislocation and disruption This debate is not about the management offer that foundered in the Scottish Joint Negotiating Committee for Teaching Staff in School Education earlier this month. Plainly, that offer was unacceptable to teachers around the country. We should not now argue about the rights and wrongs of the offer. We have a much wider and more important duty to perform.", "EditedTextHTML": "Ms Sturgeon has already made her speech and she should be content with that, be a bit patient and let me deal with the matters before me.

As part of our constructive approach, we are committed in the partnership agreement to establishing an education forum to review and raise standards in schools. I have carefully considered how we should implement that commitment. Our approach to raising standards depends centrally on teachers' practical experience and understanding of the process of teaching and learning. I want the forum to provide an opportunity for that, not as another standing advisory body or task force, but as part of a continuing participative process.

I therefore propose that the education forum will build on the recent innovative and highly successful summit meetings with head teachers. I propose two forum meetings each year and that attendance at each forum should be widely drawn from head teachers and teachers from throughout Scotland.

A priority will be to ensure that the practical experience of teachers can be balanced against the work of researchers on teaching and learning. I shall ask the existing National Education Research Forum to assist in that process. Our objective will be to improve our collective understanding of the implications of research for teaching and learning and the experience of children in our schools, and to ensure that research priorities properly reflect current experience in schools.

Each forum will review items of current interest in the light of relevant practical and research experience and reach a view about the implications for further policy developments. I will also ensure that the discussion and its implications are widely disseminated to all interested parties.

I will seek views as soon as possible on the detailed arrangements for the establishment of the forum and on issues that it might address in its first meetings. As before, the Education, Culture and Sport Committee will be consulted on this matter.

For teachers to be able to provide an excellent and improving education for our children, their professional status must be enhanced. That is why a responsive and flexible system of professional conditions for teachers is essential. That system must reward excellence and encourage innovation and commitment. It must allow us to recruit and develop the teachers whom our children deserve and it must be able to adapt to new challenges and methods. We need a system in which professional conditions can regularly be reviewed and updated as circumstances change, without our schools suffering dislocation and disruption

This debate is not about the management offer that foundered in the Scottish Joint Negotiating Committee for Teaching Staff in School Education earlier this month. Plainly, that offer was unacceptable to teachers around the country. We should not now argue about the rights and wrongs of the offer. We have a much wider and more important duty to perform.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C708742", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Galbraith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 42.0, "ContributionID": 708742, "EditedText": "We need to consider why the process of discussion and deliberation, which took so long, led to such an outcome. We need to consider how we can deliver the kind of system that our children and our schools so clearly need. We need to consider the future, not the past. The current system for negotiating teachers'conditions of service, the SJNC, has failed to deliver the new approach that we need. That should not surprise us. The SJNC has failed before, when negotiations aimed at securing changes in conditions failed in the early 1990s. In May 1997, the millennium review was set up under the SJNC. It reported in September 1998. The review promised another approach to modernising the structure of teachers' conditions of service. Once again, however, negotiations within the SJNC have failed to deliver change and have led only to stalemate. I do not believe that there is a lack of recognition of the need for change, nor a lack of will for change on the part of the education authorities or the teachers. The problem lies in the SJNC machinery. We should ask not what is wrong with the SJNC, but who would wish to defend it. I ask teachers whether the SJNC has enhanced their salaries and professional status and whether it has rewarded their commitment and excellence. Teachers know that the answer to all those questions is no.", "EditedTextHTML": "We need to consider why the process of discussion and deliberation, which took so long, led to such an outcome. We need to consider how we can deliver the kind of system that our children and our schools so clearly need. We need to consider the future, not the past.

The current system for negotiating teachers'

conditions of service, the SJNC, has failed to deliver the new approach that we need. That should not surprise us. The SJNC has failed before, when negotiations aimed at securing changes in conditions failed in the early 1990s. In May 1997, the millennium review was set up under the SJNC. It reported in September 1998. The review promised another approach to modernising the structure of teachers' conditions of service. Once again, however, negotiations within the SJNC have failed to deliver change and have led only to stalemate.

I do not believe that there is a lack of recognition of the need for change, nor a lack of will for change on the part of the education authorities or the teachers. The problem lies in the SJNC machinery.

We should ask not what is wrong with the SJNC, but who would wish to defend it. I ask teachers whether the SJNC has enhanced their salaries and professional status and whether it has rewarded their commitment and excellence. Teachers know that the answer to all those questions is no.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C708744", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Galbraith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 46.0, "ContributionID": 708744, "EditedText": "No thanks.My job is to raise teachers' salaries to the highest possible level. Like the Prime Minister, I see no reason why some teachers cannot be paid as well as doctors are. However, that will require reform and change. Such salaries can only be a reward for commitment and excellence. The current arrangements cannot deliver that for teachers. Above all else, the SJNC has encouraged mistrust and dissent. We need only look at recent press reports to see that. The SJNC has put local authorities and teachers in adversarial positions, when we wish to encourage co-operation and consensus. For all those reasons, it is clear that the SJNC cannot and should not remain as the statutory authority that determines the professional conditions of service for Scottish teachers. I have therefore given notice that the Executive will take steps to remove the statutory basis of the SJNC. That does not mean that the SJNC will immediately cease to exist. It will remain in place as a forum for negotiating a pay settlement for this year, on which I trust the management and union sides will make swift and early progress. No one in this Parliament or outside wishes to see disruption to our children's education. So that the SJNC can be succeeded in an orderly and considered way, I have announced that I am setting up an independent committee of inquiry, which will have a wide-ranging remit to make recommendations on professional conditions of service for teachers and on the future machinery for determining those conditions. On 22 September, I made a detailed statement on the setting up of the committee, which I will not repeat now. The need for modern, professional conditions of service for teachers is clear and, I believe, widely accepted.", "EditedTextHTML": "No thanks.

My job is to raise teachers' salaries to the highest possible level. Like the Prime Minister, I see no reason why some teachers cannot be paid as well as doctors are. However, that will require reform and change. Such salaries can only be a reward for commitment and excellence. The current arrangements cannot deliver that for teachers.

Above all else, the SJNC has encouraged mistrust and dissent. We need only look at recent press reports to see that. The SJNC has put local authorities and teachers in adversarial positions, when we wish to encourage co-operation and consensus.

For all those reasons, it is clear that the SJNC cannot and should not remain as the statutory authority that determines the professional conditions of service for Scottish teachers. I have therefore given notice that the Executive will take steps to remove the statutory basis of the SJNC. That does not mean that the SJNC will immediately cease to exist. It will remain in place as a forum for negotiating a pay settlement for this year, on which I trust the management and union sides will make swift and early progress. No one in this Parliament or outside wishes to see disruption to our children's education.

So that the SJNC can be succeeded in an orderly and considered way, I have announced that I am setting up an independent committee of inquiry, which will have a wide-ranging remit to make recommendations on professional conditions of service for teachers and on the future machinery for determining those conditions. On 22 September, I made a detailed statement on the setting up of the committee, which I will not repeat now. The need for modern, professional conditions of service for teachers is clear and, I believe, widely accepted.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C708746", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Galbraith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 50.0, "ContributionID": 708746, "EditedText": "The member forgot to point out that representatives of the teaching profession are involved in the committee. Two head teachers, one from a primary school and one from a secondary school, are on the committee. That is important and more than fulfils the need for such representation.", "EditedTextHTML": "The member forgot to point out that representatives of the teaching profession are involved in the committee. Two head teachers, one from a primary school and one from a secondary school, are on the committee. That is important and more than fulfils the need for such representation.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C708749", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 56.0, "ContributionID": 708749, "EditedText": "I hear the minister's point. Will he, however, respond publicly to the official letter that he received from the Scottish Trades Union Congress? The letter says: \"Our General Council is extremely surprised and disappointed at the complete lack of balance in the Committee's composition.\" It goes on to say:\"It is, therefore, quite staggering that of the seven members of the Committee announced so far, not one comes from a Trade Union background or from a constituency that suggests that they may be able to take an employee's perspective on pay and conditions issues.\" That is the view of the STUC, which is, ostensibly, one of your friends.", "EditedTextHTML": "I hear the minister's point. Will he, however, respond publicly to the official letter that he received from the Scottish Trades Union Congress? The letter says:

\"Our General Council is extremely surprised and disappointed at the complete lack of balance in the Committee's composition.\"

It goes on to say:

\"It is, therefore, quite staggering that of the seven members of the Committee announced so far, not one comes from a Trade Union background or from a constituency that suggests that they may be able to take an employee's perspective on pay and conditions issues.\"

That is the view of the STUC, which is, ostensibly, one of your friends.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C708759", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Monteith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 77.0, "ContributionID": 708759, "EditedText": "I thank Michael Russell for buttressing my point. Such is the difficulty of scheduling that I do not believe that trying to resolve such an important dispute—which would be an additional work load—is a job for the Education, Culture and Sport Committee. Why does the SNP motion opt for that? Even in these days of cosy, consensus policies, the SNP cannot bear to accept that the Tory arbitration proposal is superior to its proposal. It had to cobble something together to develop a position that was different from those of the Government and the Tories and that gave it something to say. Nicola Sturgeon may have perfect teeth, but she does not give me the ring of confidence when it comes to education policy.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank Michael Russell for buttressing my point. Such is the difficulty of scheduling that I do not believe that trying to resolve such an important dispute—which would be an additional work load—is a job for the Education, Culture and Sport Committee.

Why does the SNP motion opt for that? Even in these days of cosy, consensus policies, the SNP cannot bear to accept that the Tory arbitration proposal is superior to its proposal. It had to cobble something together to develop a position that was different from those of the Government and the Tories and that gave it something to say. Nicola Sturgeon may have perfect teeth, but she does not give me the ring of confidence when it comes to education policy.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C708755", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Brian Monteith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 69.0, "ContributionID": 708755, "EditedText": "I am pleased to take part in today's debate, because it is important that someone tries to bring the two sides together. In these days of cosy consensus politics, that is what we are meant to be all about. It appears that entrenched positions have been taken on the millennium review and the associated pay dispute, which is reflected in the Scottish National party's motion and the minister's amendment. It is important to encourage teachers and to build, not dash, their morale, while trying to modernise some of their working practices. There is a need for more extra-curricular input, but we must recognise the work that teachers already do in that field. Teachers taking pupils' work home, which they spend hours correcting, is extracurricular activity. This Government's approach to the teachers' dispute is a model exercise in how not to run employee relations. Simply because COSLA is the employer, Sam Galbraith cannot behave like Pontius Pilate, washing his hands of the dispute. The Government is a member of the SJNC and has a role to play. Sadly, Sam Galbraith has not been willing to play that role. It is not enough to say that an extra £8 million was provided to COSLA. Once it was clear, as it was to many of us, that negotiations were going to break down, he had a duty not just to the teachers and the employers but to the children of Scotland, to whom he often refers. The last thing that anyone wants is for the situation to erupt into an industrial dispute. The Government's dealings with the teachers are already a plague on its cosy, consensual style. No sooner did Brian Wilson become an education minister than he suspended the introduction of higher still for a year. By the time that Mary-doll had taken over from Brian Wilson, higher still was so confused that strike action was averted only by phasing it in. What had Brian Wilson been doing for the year—sitting on his hands? Now the third education minister in two years refuses to use his good offices to calm down the situation. Instead, he incites teachers, before their ballots, with talk of the suspension of the SJNC and the establishment of a committee of inquiry. As the Conservatives have pointed out, that seems to many people like a threat. I am not sure how many teachers believe that it is a threat, because, like many other people, we have been saying for a number of years that the SJNC is failing to deliver the pay and conditions that teachers should enjoy. There was evidence to show that teachers in Scotland were some 6 per cent behind their brothers and sisters in England. We proposed the abolition of the SJNC in 1997; at the time, the Labour party opposed that proposal, but it now sees it as necessary. The Education (Scotland) Act 1980 makes it perfectly clear that arbitration can be part of the established statutory process. All that Sam has to do—and there is still time—is to pick up the phone and get the parties together. We suggest that, following initial discussion with the Advisory, Conciliation and Arbitration Service, the employers and the teachers unions should make fresh submissions and pendulum arbitration should be used to determine the best settlement. For those members who do not follow footballtransfer deals, I had better explain pendulum arbitration. The system helps to bring parties to the table in a way that makes them closer. ACAS would have to recommend to the First Minister the better of the two proposals, which would force the two parties to work to find a solution. That would ensure that even those who did not make the successful submission are closer to the submission that is finally adopted. There is also the proposed committee of inquiry. When a problem is kicked into the long grass, I do not feel that it is important or necessary to worry about who will sit on a committee when the minister is choosing members—it is the minister's committee. My colleague asked last week what would happen if the committee of inquiry delivered a result that was either what the teachers wanted now or that was even more than that. Will Sam Galbraith meet the committee's recommendation? He could not give a guarantee last week and I suspect that cannot give us a guarantee this week. Some aspects of the SNP motion might seem attractive. Certainly, more resources need to be made available, possibly in the form of an ex gratia payment to buy teachers out of their contracts. That method would not increase future salary costs, which is an important consideration. However, it is wrong to pretend that resources are fundamental to the process, because there is no doubt that many aspects of the process require structural change.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am pleased to take part in today's debate, because it is important that someone tries to bring the two sides together. In these days of cosy consensus politics, that is what we are meant to be all about. It appears that entrenched positions have been taken on the millennium review and the associated pay dispute, which is reflected in the Scottish National party's motion and the minister's amendment.

It is important to encourage teachers and to build, not dash, their morale, while trying to modernise some of their working practices. There is a need for more extra-curricular input, but we must recognise the work that teachers already do in that field. Teachers taking pupils' work home, which they spend hours correcting, is extracurricular activity.

This Government's approach to the teachers' dispute is a model exercise in how not to run employee relations. Simply because COSLA is the employer, Sam Galbraith cannot behave like Pontius Pilate, washing his hands of the dispute. The Government is a member of the SJNC and has a role to play. Sadly, Sam Galbraith has not been willing to play that role. It is not enough to say that an extra £8 million was provided to COSLA. Once it was clear, as it was to many of us, that negotiations were going to break down, he had a duty not just to the teachers and the employers but to the children of Scotland, to whom he often refers. The last thing that anyone wants is for the situation to erupt into an industrial dispute.

The Government's dealings with the teachers are already a plague on its cosy, consensual style. No sooner did Brian Wilson become an education minister than he suspended the introduction of higher still for a year. By the time that Mary-doll had taken over from Brian Wilson, higher still was so confused that strike action was averted only by phasing it in. What had Brian Wilson been doing for the year—sitting on his hands?

Now the third education minister in two years refuses to use his good offices to calm down the situation. Instead, he incites teachers, before their ballots, with talk of the suspension of the SJNC and the establishment of a committee of inquiry. As the Conservatives have pointed out, that seems to many people like a threat. I am not sure how many teachers believe that it is a threat, because, like many other people, we have been saying for a number of years that the SJNC is failing to deliver the pay and conditions that teachers should enjoy. There was evidence to show that teachers in Scotland were some 6 per cent behind their brothers and sisters in England. We proposed the abolition of the SJNC in 1997; at the time, the Labour party opposed that proposal, but it now sees it as necessary.

The Education (Scotland) Act 1980 makes it perfectly clear that arbitration can be part of the established statutory process. All that Sam has to do—and there is still time—is to pick up the phone and get the parties together. We suggest that, following initial discussion with the Advisory, Conciliation and Arbitration Service, the employers and the teachers unions should make fresh submissions and pendulum arbitration should be used to determine the best settlement.

For those members who do not follow football

transfer deals, I had better explain pendulum arbitration. The system helps to bring parties to the table in a way that makes them closer. ACAS would have to recommend to the First Minister the better of the two proposals, which would force the two parties to work to find a solution. That would ensure that even those who did not make the successful submission are closer to the submission that is finally adopted.

There is also the proposed committee of inquiry. When a problem is kicked into the long grass, I do not feel that it is important or necessary to worry about who will sit on a committee when the minister is choosing members—it is the minister's committee. My colleague asked last week what would happen if the committee of inquiry delivered a result that was either what the teachers wanted now or that was even more than that. Will Sam Galbraith meet the committee's recommendation? He could not give a guarantee last week and I suspect that cannot give us a guarantee this week.

Some aspects of the SNP motion might seem attractive. Certainly, more resources need to be made available, possibly in the form of an ex gratia payment to buy teachers out of their contracts. That method would not increase future salary costs, which is an important consideration. However, it is wrong to pretend that resources are fundamental to the process, because there is no doubt that many aspects of the process require structural change.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C708761", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Monteith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 81.0, "ContributionID": 708761, "EditedText": "Yes—if the SNP passes the brief to a male member, I would be happy to make that statement in the future. I say that as someone who does not have perfect teeth. Although this is an SNP debate, the problem was created by the Government. The Government wanted to make education its priority—such a priority that there have been three education ministers in two years. The Government talks about standards, but the only ones that it has are double standards. The Government talks about the importance of children, but it is willing to incite industrial action in order to get its way. The Government proposes removing grant-aided status from specialist national schools, but the minister sends his children to a grant-maintained school. The Government wants to abolish the SJNC but in opposition defended it. This is a Government of double standards that has kicked the issue into the long grass; it will pay a heavy price for dealing with teachers so dismissively. Let us hope that it is not a price that the children have to pay. I move, as an amendment to motion S1M-172, in the name of Mr Alex Salmond, leave out from \"the overwhelming\" to end and insert: \"the entrenched positions being taken by the teaching unions and CoSLA in regard to reaching a settlement for teachers' pay and conditions and calls upon the Scottish Executive to bring both parties together for a settlement through the Advisory, Conciliation and Arbitration Service.\"", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes—if the SNP passes the brief to a male member, I would be happy to make that statement in the future. I say that as someone who does not have perfect teeth.

Although this is an SNP debate, the problem was created by the Government. The Government wanted to make education its priority—such a priority that there have been three education ministers in two years. The Government talks about standards, but the only ones that it has are double standards. The Government talks about the importance of children, but it is willing to incite industrial action in order to get its way. The Government proposes removing grant-aided status from specialist national schools, but the minister sends his children to a grant-maintained school. The Government wants to abolish the SJNC but in opposition defended it.

This is a Government of double standards that has kicked the issue into the long grass; it will pay a heavy price for dealing with teachers so dismissively. Let us hope that it is not a price that the children have to pay.

I move, as an amendment to motion S1M-172, in the name of Mr Alex Salmond, leave out from \"the overwhelming\" to end and insert:

\"the entrenched positions being taken by the teaching unions and CoSLA in regard to reaching a settlement for teachers' pay and conditions and calls upon the Scottish Executive to bring both parties together for a settlement through the Advisory, Conciliation and Arbitration Service.\"

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C708762", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 83.0, "ContributionID": 708762, "EditedText": "We are on time, and I remind members that, as from now, speeches are limited to four minutes.", "EditedTextHTML": "We are on time, and I remind members that, as from now, speeches are limited to four minutes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2068E171P304C708763", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stone, Jamie", "ID": 2068, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie Stone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 86.0, "ContributionID": 708763, "EditedText": "I hesitated to intervene in what was becoming something of a dental debate. This might come as a surprise to some of my colleagues, but I enjoyed the speeches by Nicola Sturgeon and Brian Monteith. I welcome Brian's new peacemaker—Mother Teresa-type—role. His former boss, Maggie, was not keen on the Advisory, Conciliation and Arbitration Service, if my memory serves correctly. We are all in a bit of a bind over the teachers' pay dispute, so my colleague, Donald Gorrie, and I will be meeting the Educational Institute of Scotland and other unions later this morning to try to understand the issue and to see whether we can help to find a way forward. Nicola was long on the rhetoric of past wrongs.What we are talking about now, however, is what we will do in future. The points that Nicola made are fair in terms of the mistakes that may or may not have been made in the past. When the minister said that he wanted to get rid of the SJNC, I did something that was probably quite wise—I conducted a straw poll among teaching friends. The reaction was always the same—they shrugged their shoulders and said that the SJNC had not done much for them. There had been years of feast and of famine. The question that bothers the teaching profession is what will emerge to replace the SJNC. That should emerge from the committee of inquiry. What will replace the SJNC, and how will it affect teachers' lives for the better?", "EditedTextHTML": "I hesitated to intervene in what was becoming something of a dental debate. This might come as a surprise to some of my colleagues, but I enjoyed the speeches by Nicola Sturgeon and Brian Monteith. I welcome Brian's new peacemaker—Mother Teresa-type—role. His former boss, Maggie, was not keen on the Advisory, Conciliation and Arbitration Service, if my memory serves correctly.

We are all in a bit of a bind over the teachers' pay dispute, so my colleague, Donald Gorrie, and I will be meeting the Educational Institute of Scotland and other unions later this morning to try to understand the issue and to see whether we can help to find a way forward.

Nicola was long on the rhetoric of past wrongs.

What we are talking about now, however, is what we will do in future. The points that Nicola made are fair in terms of the mistakes that may or may not have been made in the past. When the minister said that he wanted to get rid of the SJNC, I did something that was probably quite wise—I conducted a straw poll among teaching friends. The reaction was always the same—they shrugged their shoulders and said that the SJNC had not done much for them. There had been years of feast and of famine. The question that bothers the teaching profession is what will emerge to replace the SJNC. That should emerge from the committee of inquiry. What will replace the SJNC, and how will it affect teachers' lives for the better?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1775E171P452C708768", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeod, Fiona", "ID": 1775, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona McLeod", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona McLeod (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 97.0, "ContributionID": 708768, "EditedText": "The minister cannot get away with posing as the children's champion when his Government has brought the teaching profession to the brink of strike action. Brian Monteith spoke of the work load of the Education, Culture and Sport Committee. That committee must set priorities, and I would have hoped that Brian would agree that our children's education should be the highest priority. The SNP condemns the Labour Government's hypocrisy of constantly repeating the mantra of lowering class sizes, first stated in its election manifesto, while forcing COSLA to abolish the maximum class size for composite classes. Currently nearly 3,000 composite classes in Scottish primary schools—26 per cent of Scottish classes—have between 21 and 25 pupils in them. If that number is raised to 30, as proposed, on a conservative estimate, nearly 7,000 pupils in Scotland will be forced into bigger classes at a time when, we are told, it is the Government's mission to reduce class sizes. How will that help all children to get the best start in life? When I questioned the minister on that at the Education, Culture and Sport Committee, he asserted that there was \"no educational reason why composite class sizes should be any different from non-composite class sizes\".—Official Report, Education, Culture and Sport Committee, 8 September 1999; c 44. He failed to answer me then, so I will ask him again now where his evidence for that statement is. If he has the evidence, why has COSLA stated that \"the abolition of composite classes is a key target\"?Why does the Scottish Parent Teacher Council say that \"the teachers' determination to stick to a maximum of 25 in composite classes is very much in line with parents' views\"? Why does a literature review of the subject reveal that policy makers should not \"adopt the multigrade form of classroom organisation . . . because of economic or cost saving reasons\"? I can give Sam the references.Teachers' concerns about composite classes include the lack of time to cover course work, an increased work load and less individual attention for pupils. How does that accord with the Government's stated aim of earning a world-class reputation for the Scottish education system? International comparisons show that in Norway the average number of pupils in a composite class is 9.1 and in Slovenia it is 12.23—and in Scotland we are proposing to raise the number to 30. The situation in our small, often rural, schools is special. Peter Peacock told the Education, Culture and Sport Committee: \"Most of the kids\"—Peter's words, not mine—\"in rural areas will remain in exactly the same situation.\"— Official Report, Education, Culture and Sport Committee, 8 September 1999; c 44. In Dumfries and Galloway there are 287 composite classes. If the class size is increased to 30, 30 fewer teachers will be needed. What will that do for teachers' morale? Castle Kennedy School near Stranraer has two teachers. That means that the head teacher must teach a composite class and still perform all the duties of a head teacher. If the number in her composite class continues to rise, how is she expected to cope? How do the school and the pupils cope, Peter? The proposal will disadvantage pupils and further stress teachers—and all for an efficiency saving of £20 million. How many billions does Chancellor Brown have stuffed in his war chest, Peter? I conclude by reminding the minister and the Parliament that it is the pupils who are in the middle of this mess, and no one is asking them what they think. I have been listening, and I can tell members loud and clear that pupils do not like big classes and they do not like stressed-out teachers.", "EditedTextHTML": "The minister cannot get away with posing as the children's champion when his Government has brought the teaching profession to the brink of strike action.

Brian Monteith spoke of the work load of the Education, Culture and Sport Committee. That committee must set priorities, and I would have hoped that Brian would agree that our children's education should be the highest priority.

The SNP condemns the Labour Government's hypocrisy of constantly repeating the mantra of lowering class sizes, first stated in its election manifesto, while forcing COSLA to abolish the maximum class size for composite classes. Currently nearly 3,000 composite classes in Scottish primary schools—26 per cent of Scottish classes—have between 21 and 25 pupils in them. If that number is raised to 30, as proposed, on a conservative estimate, nearly 7,000 pupils in Scotland will be forced into bigger classes at a time when, we are told, it is the Government's mission to reduce class sizes. How will that help all children to get the best start in life?

When I questioned the minister on that at the Education, Culture and Sport Committee, he asserted that there was

\"no educational reason why composite class sizes should be any different from non-composite class sizes\".—[Official Report, Education, Culture and Sport Committee, 8 September 1999; c 44.]

He failed to answer me then, so I will ask him again now where his evidence for that statement is. If he has the evidence, why has COSLA stated that

\"the abolition of composite classes is a key target\"?

Why does the Scottish Parent Teacher Council say that

\"the teachers' determination to stick to a maximum of 25 in composite classes is very much in line with parents' views\"?

Why does a literature review of the subject reveal that policy makers should not

\"adopt the multigrade form of classroom organisation . . . because of economic or cost saving reasons\"?

I can give Sam the references.

Teachers' concerns about composite classes include the lack of time to cover course work, an increased work load and less individual attention for pupils. How does that accord with the Government's stated aim of earning a world-class reputation for the Scottish education system? International comparisons show that in Norway the average number of pupils in a composite class is

9.1 and in Slovenia it is 12.23—and in Scotland we are proposing to raise the number to 30.

The situation in our small, often rural, schools is special. Peter Peacock told the Education, Culture and Sport Committee:

\"Most of the kids\"—

Peter's words, not mine—

\"in rural areas will remain in exactly the same situation.\"— [Official Report, Education, Culture and Sport Committee, 8 September 1999; c 44.]

In Dumfries and Galloway there are 287 composite classes. If the class size is increased to 30, 30 fewer teachers will be needed. What will that do for teachers' morale? Castle Kennedy School near Stranraer has two teachers. That means that the head teacher must teach a composite class and still perform all the duties of a head teacher. If the number in her composite class continues to rise, how is she expected to cope? How do the school and the pupils cope, Peter? The proposal will disadvantage pupils and further stress teachers—and all for an efficiency saving of £20 million. How many billions does Chancellor Brown have stuffed in his war chest, Peter?

I conclude by reminding the minister and the Parliament that it is the pupils who are in the middle of this mess, and no one is asking them what they think. I have been listening, and I can tell members loud and clear that pupils do not like big classes and they do not like stressed-out teachers.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1840E82P158C708773", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macmillan, Maureen", "ID": 1840, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Maureen Macmillan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Maureen Macmillan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 108.0, "ContributionID": 708773, "EditedText": "The composition of the committee does not concern me too much. There are two head teachers on that committee who were classroom teachers in the past. I know that they are good head teachers who are well aware of the concerns of ordinary classroom teachers. We should not make false distinctions. I welcome the committee of inquiry—as I said, it is a chance in a generation to do something about teachers' work loads. Work load is important to teachers. Mr Lloyd Quinan (West of Scotland) (SNP)rose—", "EditedTextHTML": "The composition of the committee does not concern me too much. There are two head teachers on that committee who were classroom teachers in the past. I know that they are good head teachers who are well aware of the concerns of ordinary classroom teachers. We should not make false distinctions.

I welcome the committee of inquiry—as I said, it is a chance in a generation to do something about teachers' work loads. Work load is important to teachers.

Mr Lloyd Quinan (West of Scotland) (SNP)

rose—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1837E108P186C708777", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mulligan, Mary", "ID": 1837, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Linlithgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Mulligan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Mary Mulligan (Linlithgow) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 119.0, "ContributionID": 708777, "EditedText": "I welcome any opportunity to discuss education in this chamber, but the timing of this debate is all wrong if the SNP is, as it suggests, trying to be helpful. Members will know that the Education, Culture and Sport Committee has invited members of the SJNC, the teachers union and their employers to attend its meeting next week to discuss the current state of affairs. Without giving both parties a chance to have their say, or allowing members to ask questions of it and, later the same day, the minister, the SNP seems content to say how the dispute should be resolved and that we should continue with the SJNC in its present form despite the fact that after almost two years it has not been able to deliver a proposal for wages and conditions that is acceptable to teachers and employers.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome any opportunity to discuss education in this chamber, but the timing of this debate is all wrong if the SNP is, as it suggests, trying to be helpful. Members will know that the Education, Culture and Sport Committee has invited members of the SJNC, the teachers union and their employers to attend its meeting next week to discuss the current state of affairs.

Without giving both parties a chance to have their say, or allowing members to ask questions of it and, later the same day, the minister, the SNP seems content to say how the dispute should be resolved and that we should continue with the SJNC in its present form despite the fact that after almost two years it has not been able to deliver a proposal for wages and conditions that is acceptable to teachers and employers.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C708775", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Murray Tosh (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 113.0, "ContributionID": 708775, "EditedText": "I would like to begin by declaring a registrable interest—until 11 May I was the principal teacher of history in a state school in Ayr, and I remain an associate member of the Scottish Secondary Teachers Association. Old habits die hard; I found as I listened to Sam Galbraith's speech that I was instinctively marking it. It failed in both content and relevance. That was not entirely surprising, because he was not listening while Ms Sturgeon set out the basis for the debate. Sam Galbraith failed to answer the question about the absence of a teachers' representative from the committee of inquiry, which was put to him serially by Ms Sturgeon, Mr Sheridan and Mr Russell. As a former teacher, it gives me great pleasure to say to a politician that teachers would like to see some commitment and excellence from ministers in their handling of education. However, I want to be constructive and to say something that I hope will help. There are a number of teachers in the chamber who could speak usefully and constructively to ministers. Maureen Macmillan has just made a telling speech, and I hope that Mr Galbraith reads what she said in the cold light of day because it spoke volumes for the position of English teachers in particular. I will say no more about that, although I had intended to make similar points. I read and I hear what the strengths of a school are perceived to be, but in my humble opinion and in my experience—which might not accord with everybody's experience—the strength of a good school is, among other things, the strength of its principal teachers. They deliver the curriculum. They organise courses and adapt all the documents that flood in. They take on board the revision of assessment and marking when the syllabus changes, when examinations change and when courses are scrubbed. They are there when the traditional gives way to the alternative, when alternative gives way to revised, when revised gives way to higher still and when intermediate 1 and intermediate 2 come in on the heels of that. Principal teachers deal with that day in, day out. They do the nitty-gritty and they are in the firing line. I am not sure what I think of Sam Galbraith's attitude to COSLA's proposals. At one point he seemed to be the cheerleader for COSLA and—I think—called the teachers dinosaurs. On another occasion he was behind the teachers and took a flexible line. I do not know where Sam Galbraith stands or whether his view is that the COSLA proposals are still in the frame. As a former principal teacher, I would like to put it to him that teachers' status is not recognised, nor are they motivated and inspired by the creation of 10 professional leader posts in a typical school with some 20 principal teachers. If those posts are given to existing principal teachers, where does that leave the other 10? What is their status? What are their responsibilities and their remit? How they have been degraded and dispirited. What of the new professional leaders? I read the COSLA offer; one of the serious suggestions is to put a professional leader in charge of the five to 14 groupings. That means that somebody on the management side thinks that it is realistic for an individual to lead curricular change and cross- curricular teams of collegiate teachers in the preparation of courses in history, geography, modern studies, economics, technical subjects and the three sciences of physics, chemistry and biology. That is what is in environmental studies, a five to 14 grouping subject. That is a nonsensical point of view—one individual is massively overloaded. It is simply not possible. No one who knows anything about teaching thinks that that is achievable. What happens to all the senior teachers and assistant principals who are in the promotion queue when the 10 professional leaders are created? Do we say, \"Sorry chaps, your day is done and there will not be vacancies for some years to come, so sorry and cheerio\"? That is a devastating blow to the professionalism, the practice and the strengths of our education system. I suspect that I am exhausting your patience, Presiding Officer, so I will conclude. I had not intended to say much about resources, but as a teacher I was as interested in money as anybody else was. Money is part of the picture, although many other things count. A huge demographic time bomb is ticking away in our schools in relation to the vast majority of teachers of around my age. That is not good news. Most of them will go in the next 10 or 12 years and they must be replaced. If committed and capable people are to be recruited to replace them, more than is currently being paid to teachers must be offered. That is not necessarily only about rewarding today's teachers, although that is a worthwhile exercise. If we think about how we will recruit in future, that will take us some way towards putting a decent offer on the table and providing a management structure that accords with reality.", "EditedTextHTML": "I would like to begin by declaring a registrable interest—until 11 May I was the principal teacher of history in a state school in Ayr, and I remain an associate member of the Scottish Secondary Teachers Association.

Old habits die hard; I found as I listened to Sam Galbraith's speech that I was instinctively marking it. It failed in both content and relevance. That was not entirely surprising, because he was not listening while Ms Sturgeon set out the basis for the debate.

Sam Galbraith failed to answer the question about the absence of a teachers' representative from the committee of inquiry, which was put to him serially by Ms Sturgeon, Mr Sheridan and Mr Russell. As a former teacher, it gives me great pleasure to say to a politician that teachers would like to see some commitment and excellence from ministers in their handling of education.

However, I want to be constructive and to say something that I hope will help. There are a number of teachers in the chamber who could speak usefully and constructively to ministers. Maureen Macmillan has just made a telling speech, and I hope that Mr Galbraith reads what she said in the cold light of day because it spoke volumes for the position of English teachers in particular. I will say no more about that, although I had intended to make similar points.

I read and I hear what the strengths of a school are perceived to be, but in my humble opinion and in my experience—which might not accord with everybody's experience—the strength of a good school is, among other things, the strength of its principal teachers. They deliver the curriculum. They organise courses and adapt all the documents that flood in. They take on board the revision of assessment and marking when the syllabus changes, when examinations change and when courses are scrubbed. They are there when the traditional gives way to the alternative, when alternative gives way to revised, when revised gives way to higher still and when intermediate 1 and intermediate 2 come in on the heels of that. Principal teachers deal with that day in, day out. They do the nitty-gritty and they are in the firing line.

I am not sure what I think of Sam Galbraith's attitude to COSLA's proposals. At one point he seemed to be the cheerleader for COSLA and—I think—called the teachers dinosaurs. On another

occasion he was behind the teachers and took a flexible line.

I do not know where Sam Galbraith stands or whether his view is that the COSLA proposals are still in the frame. As a former principal teacher, I would like to put it to him that teachers' status is not recognised, nor are they motivated and inspired by the creation of 10 professional leader posts in a typical school with some 20 principal teachers. If those posts are given to existing principal teachers, where does that leave the other 10? What is their status? What are their responsibilities and their remit? How they have been degraded and dispirited.

What of the new professional leaders? I read the COSLA offer; one of the serious suggestions is to put a professional leader in charge of the five to 14 groupings. That means that somebody on the management side thinks that it is realistic for an individual to lead curricular change and cross- curricular teams of collegiate teachers in the preparation of courses in history, geography, modern studies, economics, technical subjects and the three sciences of physics, chemistry and biology. That is what is in environmental studies, a five to 14 grouping subject.

That is a nonsensical point of view—one individual is massively overloaded. It is simply not possible. No one who knows anything about teaching thinks that that is achievable.

What happens to all the senior teachers and assistant principals who are in the promotion queue when the 10 professional leaders are created? Do we say, \"Sorry chaps, your day is done and there will not be vacancies for some years to come, so sorry and cheerio\"? That is a devastating blow to the professionalism, the practice and the strengths of our education system.

I suspect that I am exhausting your patience, Presiding Officer, so I will conclude. I had not intended to say much about resources, but as a teacher I was as interested in money as anybody else was. Money is part of the picture, although many other things count.

A huge demographic time bomb is ticking away in our schools in relation to the vast majority of teachers of around my age. That is not good news. Most of them will go in the next 10 or 12 years and they must be replaced. If committed and capable people are to be recruited to replace them, more than is currently being paid to teachers must be offered. That is not necessarily only about rewarding today's teachers, although that is a worthwhile exercise. If we think about how we will recruit in future, that will take us some way towards putting a decent offer on the table and providing a management structure that accords with reality.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2118E157P454C708782", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Quinan, Mr Lloyd", "ID": 2118, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lloyd Quinan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Quinan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 129.0, "ContributionID": 708782, "EditedText": "Will Mrs Mulligan give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mrs Mulligan give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1837E108P186C708784", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mulligan, Mary", "ID": 1837, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Linlithgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Mulligan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Mulligan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 133.0, "ContributionID": 708784, "EditedText": "Yes.Both in the Parliament and in the Education, Culture and Sport Committee, many education matters need to be discussed. I believe that the present problem can be resolved if we allow the teachers and their employers to negotiate. At this stage, the Parliament does not need to get involved in the way that has been suggested. We owe it to our children, our teachers and our parents to take a more constructive and positive approach to education.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes.

Both in the Parliament and in the Education, Culture and Sport Committee, many education matters need to be discussed. I believe that the present problem can be resolved if we allow the teachers and their employers to negotiate. At this stage, the Parliament does not need to get involved in the way that has been suggested. We owe it to our children, our teachers and our parents to take a more constructive and positive approach to education.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C708785", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan (Falkirk West): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 136.0, "ContributionID": 708785, "EditedText": "In the recent ballot, 98 per cent of Scottish teachers rejected the employers' offer, which they considered to be a demand to work longer hours for less pay on a pro rata basis. Accepting that offer would also have led to larger class sizes and the abolition of the post of subject principal teacher. In my opinion, and that of the majority of teachers, such measures would threaten rather than improve educational standards. The Executive's response to that democratic ballot, however, is to propose the abolition of the Scottish joint negotiating committee and to set up yet another inquiry. The minister appeared to be saying that no one is defending the SJNC. If he seriously believes that, why does not he have a ballot of all the teachers to see whether they want to retain or abolish the SJNC before he goes ahead with his legislation? The business of having another inquiry seems to indicate an element of indecision and prevarication on the part of the Executive, particularly in its education policy—or lack of it. There is already an inquiry into student finance; now we are to have another into teachers' pay and conditions. The composition of the committee has also come in for criticism, particularly by teachers' unions and the Scottish Trades Union Congress. A minister—especially a Labour minister—excluding from membership of the committee anyone from a trade union background and any practising classroom teacher is a deplorable example of industrial relations. There seems to be an element of pre-emption on the part of the Executive. The committee's terms of reference include an inquiry into the future arrangements for determining teachers' pay and conditions following the removal of the statutory basis of the SJNC now proposed by the Scottish Executive. Ministers seem to be pre-empting the will of Parliament, because the abolition of the SJNC would require parliamentary approval and legislation. I would be grateful if the minister would tell us what advice he has had as to whether such legislation would be dealt with by the Scottish Parliament or by the Westminster Parliament. Education, as we all know, is a devolved matter, but employment legislation is a reserved matter. The minister would be heading for trouble if he depended on votes down at Westminster to bring about a reduction in Scottish teachers' pay and conditions of service. The minister keeps saying that all this is part of the Government's modernisation programme. Last week, he told me that I was hanging on to the past, but it is the minister and his comrades in the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities who are trying to turn back the clock. I recall the first teaching job I ever had. I was still a student at the time. I got a job during the university holidays as a temporary unqualified teacher at a school in a deprived mining community in Fife. Such was the level of deprivation among the children that at one stage I had to give a pair of my wee sister's shoes to one of the pupils so that she could come to school. There were more than 30 pupils in the class, ranging in age from eight to 12, and every child in the class had learning difficulties. Looking back, I now realise that I probably learned more from them than they learned from me. Later on in my teaching career, I was a principal teacher in one of the largest comprehensive secondary schools in Scotland. At that time— during the late '60s and early '70s—there were classes of about 50. That would not be tolerated now. Why? Because teachers and the teachers' unions have fought hard over the years to improve working conditions. Teachers have won contracts stipulating maximum class sizes and other matters affecting their work and, when the SJNC was set up, such agreements had a statutory basis. Those were hard-won gains by the teaching profession, and the minister is now to abandon all that by abolishing the SJNC. The proposal seems to be part of the teacher- bashing agenda that started down south with David Blunkett, which was copied by Helen Liddell and which is now being continued by Sam Galbraith. The minister's attitude will do nothing to improve the status or morale of the teaching profession. More important, it will do nothing to improve educational standards. The children in our schools deserve much better and I therefore urge the minister to think again. Let us have a fair deal for Scottish teachers to ensure a better future for the children in our schools.", "EditedTextHTML": "In the recent ballot, 98 per cent of Scottish teachers rejected the employers' offer, which they considered to be a demand to work longer hours for less pay on a pro rata basis. Accepting that offer would also have led to larger class sizes and the abolition of the post of subject principal teacher. In my opinion, and that of the majority of teachers, such measures would threaten rather than improve educational standards.

The Executive's response to that democratic ballot, however, is to propose the abolition of the Scottish joint negotiating committee and to set up yet another inquiry. The minister appeared to be saying that no one is defending the SJNC. If he seriously believes that, why does not he have a ballot of all the teachers to see whether they want to retain or abolish the SJNC before he goes ahead with his legislation?

The business of having another inquiry seems to indicate an element of indecision and prevarication on the part of the Executive, particularly in its education policy—or lack of it. There is already an inquiry into student finance; now we are to have another into teachers' pay and conditions.

The composition of the committee has also come in for criticism, particularly by teachers' unions and the Scottish Trades Union Congress. A minister—especially a Labour minister—excluding from membership of the committee anyone from a trade union background and any practising classroom teacher is a deplorable example of industrial relations.

There seems to be an element of pre-emption on the part of the Executive. The committee's terms of reference include an inquiry into the future arrangements for determining teachers' pay and conditions following the removal of the statutory basis of the SJNC now proposed by the Scottish Executive.

Ministers seem to be pre-empting the will of Parliament, because the abolition of the SJNC would require parliamentary approval and legislation. I would be grateful if the minister would tell us what advice he has had as to whether such legislation would be dealt with by the Scottish Parliament or by the Westminster Parliament. Education, as we all know, is a devolved matter, but employment legislation is a reserved matter. The minister would be heading for trouble if he depended on votes down at Westminster to bring about a reduction in Scottish teachers' pay and conditions of service.

The minister keeps saying that all this is part of the Government's modernisation programme. Last week, he told me that I was hanging on to the past, but it is the minister and his comrades in the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities who are trying to turn back the clock.

I recall the first teaching job I ever had. I was still a student at the time. I got a job during the university holidays as a temporary unqualified teacher at a school in a deprived mining community in Fife. Such was the level of deprivation among the children that at one stage I had to give a pair of my wee sister's shoes to one of the pupils so that she could come to school. There were more than 30 pupils in the class, ranging in age from eight to 12, and every child in the class had learning difficulties. Looking back, I now realise that I probably learned more from them than they learned from me.

Later on in my teaching career, I was a principal teacher in one of the largest comprehensive secondary schools in Scotland. At that time— during the late '60s and early '70s—there were classes of about 50. That would not be tolerated now. Why? Because teachers and the teachers'

unions have fought hard over the years to improve working conditions. Teachers have won contracts stipulating maximum class sizes and other matters affecting their work and, when the SJNC was set up, such agreements had a statutory basis. Those were hard-won gains by the teaching profession, and the minister is now to abandon all that by abolishing the SJNC.

The proposal seems to be part of the teacher- bashing agenda that started down south with David Blunkett, which was copied by Helen Liddell and which is now being continued by Sam Galbraith. The minister's attitude will do nothing to improve the status or morale of the teaching profession. More important, it will do nothing to improve educational standards. The children in our schools deserve much better and I therefore urge the minister to think again. Let us have a fair deal for Scottish teachers to ensure a better future for the children in our schools.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C708790", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 148.0, "ContributionID": 708790, "EditedText": "The member is winding up.", "EditedTextHTML": "The member is winding up.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C708786", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell (South of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 139.0, "ContributionID": 708786, "EditedText": "I want to address two issues: the working hours of teachers and the structure of the profession. Before I do that, however, I must declare two interests—as the husband of a teacher and as a parent. There are many parents in this chamber who are concerned about the future of their children and of children such as those in the public gallery this morning. That is what this debate is about. Many teachers will take severe offence at what the minister has said today. At the beginning of the debate, he attacked the SNP by saying that our motion has nothing to do with children. Every teacher puts children first, second, third and right the way through. By protecting, supporting and encouraging teachers, we intend to get the best out of children. It is extraordinary that society exhorts our children to listen to their teachers, but that the Government remains deaf to the teachers of Scotland. The structure of the profession is a vital matter for teachers, but it is a vital matter for children too. As Murray Tosh correctly and very movingly pointed out, it is the teachers in schools who can get the best out of children. I have not heard of or read about one teacher who supports the restructuring of the profession as the offer suggests. Yes, teachers support the restructuring of the profession and do not want the best teachers to be distanced from the classroom, but Kevin Nolan, a principal teacher in a Dundee secondary school, writing in the current issue of the Scottish Educational Journal, says of the proposals: \"The plans to remove all Principal Teacher posts lack coherence, present an ill-defined method of progression from one stage to another and have little to do with improving educational provision for young people.\" He goes on to describe the plans as\"unworkable, divisive and woefully ill-thought out.\"I encourage the minister to listen to the teachers and not simply to his advisers. Nicola Sturgeon has described what the proposals will do in terms of career blocking. Rather than encouraging people into teaching and encouraging them to move through the profession and aim ahead, the proposals will stop progress in the profession and result in an even worse recruitment crisis. At a recent meeting of the Education, Culture and Sport Committee, Sam Galbraith moaned on about teachers not reading professional journals. Sam Galbraith is a professional and I hope that all of us in this chamber are professionals. What underpins professionalism is constructive self- management of time. One might argue that that is what differentiates professionals from others. However, in the proposed hours for teachers, there is not a moment for such constructive self- management. All time is to be allocated; all the time, teachers are to be told what to do. That rigid control will result in two things: in the best teachers working even longer hours for their pupils and the worst teachers giving up all hope that they can do better. If that is at the heart of the proposals, they are deeply flawed. I encourage the Executive and all the members sitting behind them, who are trying to defend the indefensible—including the Liberal Democrats, who have a choice on this matter in the partnership—to listen to the teachers. In the Educational Institute of Scotland ballot, 33,678 people voted no and 656 voted yes. There were 10 spoiled papers. Only 656 people voted in support of the proposals. That is a damning refusal. The figure is only slightly more than the number of votes polled by the Liberal Democrats in the Hamilton South by-election—which shows just how low it is. I say to Sam Galbraith, as many members do, \"Play it again, Sam.\" I appeal to him to rewind from where he is and pick the right fight—a fight on behalf of teachers in Scotland—to get some money out of Gordon Brown's war chest. Sam Galbraith is involved in a fight with Scottish teachers that will damage our children.", "EditedTextHTML": "I want to address two issues: the working hours of teachers and the structure of the profession. Before I do that, however, I must declare two interests—as the husband of a teacher and as a parent. There are many parents in this chamber who are concerned about the future of their children and of children such as those in the public gallery this morning. That is what this debate is about.

Many teachers will take severe offence at what the minister has said today. At the beginning of the debate, he attacked the SNP by saying that our motion has nothing to do with children. Every teacher puts children first, second, third and right the way through. By protecting, supporting and encouraging teachers, we intend to get the best out of children. It is extraordinary that society exhorts our children to listen to their teachers, but that the Government remains deaf to the teachers of Scotland.

The structure of the profession is a vital matter for teachers, but it is a vital matter for children too. As Murray Tosh correctly and very movingly pointed out, it is the teachers in schools who can get the best out of children. I have not heard of or read about one teacher who supports the restructuring of the profession as the offer suggests. Yes, teachers support the restructuring of the profession and do not want the best teachers to be distanced from the classroom, but Kevin Nolan, a principal teacher in a Dundee secondary school, writing in the current issue of the Scottish Educational Journal, says of the proposals:

\"The plans to remove all Principal Teacher posts lack coherence, present an ill-defined method of progression from one stage to another and have little to do with improving educational provision for young people.\"

He goes on to describe the plans as

\"unworkable, divisive and woefully ill-thought out.\"

I encourage the minister to listen to the teachers and not simply to his advisers.

Nicola Sturgeon has described what the proposals will do in terms of career blocking. Rather than encouraging people into teaching and encouraging them to move through the profession and aim ahead, the proposals will stop progress in the profession and result in an even worse recruitment crisis.

At a recent meeting of the Education, Culture and Sport Committee, Sam Galbraith moaned on about teachers not reading professional journals. Sam Galbraith is a professional and I hope that all of us in this chamber are professionals. What underpins professionalism is constructive self- management of time. One might argue that that is what differentiates professionals from others. However, in the proposed hours for teachers, there is not a moment for such constructive self- management. All time is to be allocated; all the time, teachers are to be told what to do. That rigid control will result in two things: in the best teachers working even longer hours for their pupils and the worst teachers giving up all hope that they can do better. If that is at the heart of the proposals, they are deeply flawed.

I encourage the Executive and all the members sitting behind them, who are trying to defend the indefensible—including the Liberal Democrats, who have a choice on this matter in the partnership—to listen to the teachers. In the Educational Institute of Scotland ballot, 33,678 people voted no and 656 voted yes. There were 10 spoiled papers. Only 656 people voted in support of the proposals. That is a damning refusal. The figure is only slightly more than the number of votes polled by the Liberal Democrats in the Hamilton South by-election—which shows just how low it is.

I say to Sam Galbraith, as many members do, \"Play it again, Sam.\" I appeal to him to rewind from where he is and pick the right fight—a fight on behalf of teachers in Scotland—to get some money out of Gordon Brown's war chest. Sam Galbraith is involved in a fight with Scottish teachers that will damage our children.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1873E89P171C708789", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jackson, Dr Sylvia", "ID": 1873, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Stirling" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sylvia Jackson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Jackson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 146.0, "ContributionID": 708789, "EditedText": "No, Nicola, I want to finish.It is time, therefore, to look for solutions other than the SJNC. Last week, Sam Galbraith gave details of the independent committee of inquiry that will make recommendations on a future mechanism for determining pay and conditions for teachers in Scotland. As an EIS member, I initially felt uneasy about the possibility of a pay review body that could reduce the bargaining powers of the unions, but it is imperative that we find a mechanism that leads to teachers being given a just financial reward and being listened to, so that more long-standing concerns are adequately addressed. The independent committee is only one way of doing that. The Government has education as its No 1 priority. Fiona McLeod (West of Scotland) (SNP)rose—", "EditedTextHTML": "No, Nicola, I want to finish.

It is time, therefore, to look for solutions other than the SJNC. Last week, Sam Galbraith gave details of the independent committee of inquiry that will make recommendations on a future mechanism for determining pay and conditions for teachers in Scotland. As an EIS member, I initially felt uneasy about the possibility of a pay review body that could reduce the bargaining powers of the unions, but it is imperative that we find a mechanism that leads to teachers being given a just financial reward and being listened to, so that more long-standing concerns are adequately addressed. The independent committee is only one way of doing that.

The Government has education as its No 1 priority.

Fiona McLeod (West of Scotland) (SNP)

rose—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1850E185P354C708792", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Radcliffe, Nora", "ID": 1850, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Gordon" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nora Radcliffe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nora Radcliffe (Gordon) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 153.0, "ContributionID": 708792, "EditedText": "One of the major concerns of head and senior teachers in my constituency about the offer is the lack of clarity in the proposals to change school management. They feel that the proposals have not been thought through. Those I spoke to could not see how their schools would implement the proposals or how the work currently done by staff would be redistributed. Class sizes may be an \"old chestnut\" but they are an on-going concern. There are good reasons why the issue comes up again and again. Sam Galbraith said this morning that he wants to see \"schools and local authorities work together effectively\".Schools and local authorities may work together effectively—setting a budget, agreeing priorities and preparing a plan for the year—then a new initiative is announced and bids have to be prepared at the expense of a great deal of staff time and effort and often at short notice. However well intentioned or desirable the objectives of the initiative, the effect is to cut across and disrupt local priorities, to divert staff time and effort, and to take resources from a finite budget. Whatever the outcome of the current discussions, the plea will remain that schools should not be made to jump through so many hoops or be forced to bid for targeted resources that supersede local priorities.", "EditedTextHTML": "One of the major concerns of head and senior teachers in my constituency about the offer is the lack of clarity in the proposals to change school management. They feel that the proposals have not been thought through. Those I spoke to could not see how their schools would implement the proposals or how the work currently done by staff would be redistributed.

Class sizes may be an \"old chestnut\" but they are an on-going concern. There are good reasons why the issue comes up again and again. Sam Galbraith said this morning that he wants to see

\"schools and local authorities work together effectively\".

Schools and local authorities may work together effectively—setting a budget, agreeing priorities and preparing a plan for the year—then a new initiative is announced and bids have to be prepared at the expense of a great deal of staff time and effort and often at short notice. However well intentioned or desirable the objectives of the initiative, the effect is to cut across and disrupt local priorities, to divert staff time and effort, and to

take resources from a finite budget. Whatever the outcome of the current discussions, the plea will remain that schools should not be made to jump through so many hoops or be forced to bid for targeted resources that supersede local priorities.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C708795", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 162.0, "ContributionID": 708795, "EditedText": "This debate has been enhanced enormously by the practical experience of teachers such as Maureen Macmillan, Margo MacDonald and Robin Harper. Maureen, I realise that one does not need to be a teacher to speak in this debate. We all feel passionate about this issue. I have never taught in schools but I spent the past 20 years in further education. I have seen people who slipped through the net at school. They left school with no experience and went into dead-end jobs. But I have seen how education can transform people by giving them dignity, self-esteem, belief in themselves and the opportunities that they seek in life, so I am delighted and privileged to take part in this debate today. As I listened to Sam Galbraith's ministerial statement, on the basis of my experience I could not help thinking how wonderful and impressive it was. I could not help thinking how different it was from the practical experience that people such as I have faced in the past two and a half years. As a parent—and a single parent—I wanted no more than an excellent educational experience for my children. All of us feel passionately about the fact that the one thing that we can do for our children is to give them the best experience possible in life. I do not see this issue as being all about the EIS, education ministers and teachers; it is about the lives of children and the lives of adults. I hope that members will forgive me if I turn back the clock a wee bit. Having stood in the 1992 and 1997 general elections, I remember how hard people such as Michael Forsyth and other education ministers had to fight to introduce primary school testing, languages in primary schools, school boards, a parents' charter and, indeed, to implement standard grade and higher still. All those initiatives were fought for in the face of bitter, hostile, negative and destructive opposition. If I stand here beside someone who was likened to Mother Teresa and who put forward a positive contribution to this debate, I am proud to be on this side. I am proud that Nicola Sturgeon and others have tried to overcome the historical confrontational approach that did no one any good. I am proud that we have entered into a constructive debate. Many promises were made by the Government. As a lecturer in 1997 I thought that things would be quite wonderful, with more resources and so on. I can talk honestly from my experience. At Inverness College, where I taught higher national certificate courses, higher national diploma courses and degrees, the size of my classes doubled and trebled after 1997. It did not make much difference when I was teaching. I could lecture to three, 30 or 300, but when the course work comes in at 300,000 words a time and the evenings and weekends are not long enough to keep up with the marking, it does matter. That is no different from the feedback that I am getting from teachers in schools: there is more work for less money, less value and less recognition. There is a limit to how far you can push teachers. I will pick up on a point that Margo MacDonald made about teachers' pay. No one enters the teaching profession for financial advancement. My son graduated last year from Edinburgh and I was shocked when the starting salaries of his friends, as new graduates, were higher than the salary that I earned as a teacher at the top of the scale when I was teaching degree courses. That is shameful. In 1997, Inverness College had a deficit of about £700,000; it is now £4 million. I believe that out of the 53 further education colleges in Scotland—and the minister can confirm or deny this—48 of them are facing financial deficits to the bank. That is hardly a Government that prioritises education. I will mention Peter Peacock.", "EditedTextHTML": "This debate has been enhanced enormously by the practical experience of teachers such as Maureen Macmillan, Margo MacDonald and Robin Harper. Maureen, I realise that one does not need to be a teacher to speak in this debate. We all feel passionate about this issue. I have never taught in schools but I spent the past 20 years in further education. I have seen people who slipped through the net at school. They left school with no experience and went into dead-end jobs. But I have seen how education can transform people by giving them dignity, self-esteem, belief in themselves and the opportunities that they seek in life, so I am delighted and privileged to take part in this debate today.

As I listened to Sam Galbraith's ministerial statement, on the basis of my experience I could not help thinking how wonderful and impressive it was. I could not help thinking how different it was from the practical experience that people such as I have faced in the past two and a half years. As a parent—and a single parent—I wanted no more than an excellent educational experience for my children. All of us feel passionately about the fact that the one thing that we can do for our children is to give them the best experience possible in life.

I do not see this issue as being all about the EIS, education ministers and teachers; it is about the lives of children and the lives of adults. I hope that members will forgive me if I turn back the clock a wee bit. Having stood in the 1992 and 1997 general elections, I remember how hard people such as Michael Forsyth and other education ministers had to fight to introduce primary school testing, languages in primary schools, school boards, a parents' charter and, indeed, to implement standard grade and higher still. All those initiatives were fought for in the face of bitter, hostile, negative and destructive opposition. If I stand here beside someone who was likened to Mother Teresa and who put forward a positive contribution to this debate, I am proud to be on this side. I am proud that Nicola Sturgeon and others have tried to overcome the historical confrontational approach that did no one any good. I am proud that we have entered into a constructive debate.

Many promises were made by the Government. As a lecturer in 1997 I thought that things would be quite wonderful, with more resources and so on. I can talk honestly from my experience. At Inverness College, where I taught higher national certificate courses, higher national diploma courses and degrees, the size of my classes doubled and trebled after 1997. It did not make

much difference when I was teaching. I could lecture to three, 30 or 300, but when the course work comes in at 300,000 words a time and the evenings and weekends are not long enough to keep up with the marking, it does matter. That is no different from the feedback that I am getting from teachers in schools: there is more work for less money, less value and less recognition. There is a limit to how far you can push teachers.

I will pick up on a point that Margo MacDonald made about teachers' pay. No one enters the teaching profession for financial advancement. My son graduated last year from Edinburgh and I was shocked when the starting salaries of his friends, as new graduates, were higher than the salary that I earned as a teacher at the top of the scale when I was teaching degree courses. That is shameful.

In 1997, Inverness College had a deficit of about £700,000; it is now £4 million. I believe that out of the 53 further education colleges in Scotland—and the minister can confirm or deny this—48 of them are facing financial deficits to the bank. That is hardly a Government that prioritises education.

I will mention Peter Peacock.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2108E50P256C708809", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macintosh, Ken", "ID": 2108, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Eastwood" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ken Macintosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Macintosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 194.0, "ContributionID": 708809, "EditedText": "I disagree totally. It is our job in this Parliament to manage the resources at our disposal. We have £15 billion to tackle the problems that face Scotland, but the SNP's solution is to look for magic pots of gold elsewhere—money that is not under our control. The SNP should focus on the real situation in which we find ourselves. I also disagree fundamentally with the SNP's analysis. The problem is one not of resources, but of a profession that feels undervalued and demoralised. It is difficult for those of us who are not teachers to appreciate the pressure that they are under daily in the classroom.", "EditedTextHTML": "I disagree totally. It is our job in this Parliament to manage the resources at our disposal. We have £15 billion to tackle the problems that face Scotland, but the SNP's solution is to look for magic pots of gold elsewhere—money that is not under our control. The SNP should focus on the real situation in which we find ourselves.

I also disagree fundamentally with the SNP's analysis. The problem is one not of resources, but of a profession that feels undervalued and demoralised. It is difficult for those of us who are not teachers to appreciate the pressure that they are under daily in the classroom.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2108E50P256C708813", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macintosh, Ken", "ID": 2108, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Eastwood" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ken Macintosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Macintosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 202.0, "ContributionID": 708813, "EditedText": "I am trying to make a point and you have already made a speech, Nicola. Nicola said in her speech this morning that she wanted the matter to be referred to the Education, Culture and Sport Committee. That committee is going to take evidence from both sides, but it is not our purpose to replace negotiating machinery. It is terrible to suggest that it should. I particularly object to the suggestion because of the behaviour of you and your colleagues in the committee. On two occasions, you have left the committee within an hour of its starting to release a press statement. That shows that the SNP members have their minds made up when they come to the committee. You are not coming to listen, you are coming with a narrow prejudice. I find your behaviour in that committee insulting to other members and to those who are giving evidence.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am trying to make a point and you have already made a speech, Nicola.

Nicola said in her speech this morning that she wanted the matter to be referred to the Education, Culture and Sport Committee. That committee is going to take evidence from both sides, but it is not our purpose to replace negotiating machinery. It is terrible to suggest that it should.

I particularly object to the suggestion because of the behaviour of you and your colleagues in the committee. On two occasions, you have left the committee within an hour of its starting to release a press statement. That shows that the SNP members have their minds made up when they come to the committee. You are not coming to listen, you are coming with a narrow prejudice. I find your behaviour in that committee insulting to other members and to those who are giving evidence.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C708814", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ms Patricia Ferguson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 204.0, "ContributionID": 708814, "EditedText": "Could you wind up now, please.", "EditedTextHTML": "Could you wind up now, please.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1821E295P538C708821", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Mrs Margaret", "ID": 1821, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Moray" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Margaret Ewing (Moray) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 218.0, "ContributionID": 708821, "EditedText": "On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I would like to know whether any indication was given to Nicola that Mr MacIntosh was going to raise that point outside the committee. That would be courteous behaviour and it is important that Nicola has the right to respond in the chamber.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I would like to know whether any indication was given to Nicola that Mr MacIntosh was going to raise that point outside the committee. That would be courteous behaviour and it is important that Nicola has the right to respond in the chamber.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C708822", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 220.0, "ContributionID": 708822, "EditedText": "Mr MacIntosh, please continue.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr MacIntosh, please continue.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1876E194P490C708824", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Marwick, Tricia", "ID": 1876, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tricia Marwick", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tricia Marwick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 224.0, "ContributionID": 708824, "EditedText": "On a point of order. Is it in order for one member to abuse another in the way that Mr MacIntosh has done without the abused member being given the right to reply?", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. Is it in order for one member to abuse another in the way that Mr MacIntosh has done without the abused member being given the right to reply?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C708826", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 228.0, "ContributionID": 708826, "EditedText": "Both members who have been involved in the conversation that has been going on across the chamber have had ample opportunity to put their points across. I remind members that they should indicate if they wish to speak. Members should not speak until they have been asked to. Mr MacIntosh, would you quickly wind up, please.", "EditedTextHTML": "Both members who have been involved in the conversation that has been going on across the chamber have had ample opportunity to put their points across.

I remind members that they should indicate if they wish to speak. Members should not speak until they have been asked to.

Mr MacIntosh, would you quickly wind up, please.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2108E50P256C708827", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macintosh, Ken", "ID": 2108, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Eastwood" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ken Macintosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Macintosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 230.0, "ContributionID": 708827, "EditedText": "I am not personally abusing Nicola; I am making a point. I object to the motion because it is not designed to resolve the issue. It will do nothing to help the lot of teachers. It accuses the Executive of being deliberately provocative, but I think that it is the SNP that is being provocative. The motion fails to understand that the Executive's primary aim is to improve the lot of teachers: the Government is rebuilding schools, investing in computers and investing in classroom assistants. All that shows how much we value education, our children and our teachers. I urge members to reject the motion, support the amendment and allow the Government to support teachers and reward them for their efforts.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am not personally abusing Nicola; I am making a point.

I object to the motion because it is not designed to resolve the issue. It will do nothing to help the lot of teachers. It accuses the Executive of being deliberately provocative, but I think that it is the SNP that is being provocative. The motion fails to understand that the Executive's primary aim is to improve the lot of teachers: the Government is rebuilding schools, investing in computers and investing in classroom assistants. All that shows how much we value education, our children and our teachers.

I urge members to reject the motion, support the amendment and allow the Government to support teachers and reward them for their efforts.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1768E72P274C708829", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Murray, Elaine", "ID": 1768, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumfries" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Murray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Murray: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 235.0, "ContributionID": 708829, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1775E171P452C708840", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeod, Fiona", "ID": 1775, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona McLeod", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona McLeod: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 259.0, "ContributionID": 708840, "EditedText": "Does David Mundell agree that, although composite classes do not put children at an educational disadvantage, there is evidence that large classes, especially large composite classes, could?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does David Mundell agree that, although composite classes do not put children at an educational disadvantage, there is evidence that large classes, especially large composite classes, could?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1962E35P56C708841", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mundell, David", "ID": 1962, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Mundell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David Mundell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 261.0, "ContributionID": 708841, "EditedText": "I agree—I have made that point already. I will pass over the Liberal Democrats, having heard that Jamie Stone and Donald Gorrie are to establish a mini-task force to resolve this issue. It is interesting to note in the Liberals' educational policy document that they are opposed to the constant denigration of teachers by ministers. I hope that, in summing up, the deputy minister will say what other input the Liberal Democrats have had into the handling of this dispute. Resolving this dispute is not rocket science. Virtually every organisation in Scotland has to face buying out existing terms and conditions and moving forward with new, flexible practices. It is the minister's approach that is the problem. I urge members to support Mr Monteith's amendment.", "EditedTextHTML": "I agree—I have made that point already.

I will pass over the Liberal Democrats, having heard that Jamie Stone and Donald Gorrie are to establish a mini-task force to resolve this issue. It is interesting to note in the Liberals' educational policy document that they are opposed to the constant denigration of teachers by ministers. I hope that, in summing up, the deputy minister will say what other input the Liberal Democrats have had into the handling of this dispute.

Resolving this dispute is not rocket science. Virtually every organisation in Scotland has to face buying out existing terms and conditions and moving forward with new, flexible practices. It is the minister's approach that is the problem. I urge members to support Mr Monteith's amendment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C708844", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 268.0, "ContributionID": 708844, "EditedText": "I remind the chamber that the guidelines say that members must respect the needs of other members to participate in the Parliament and that loud, prolonged discussions that may distract others should be avoided. I ask all members to adhere to those guidelines.", "EditedTextHTML": "I remind the chamber that the guidelines say that members must respect the needs of other members to participate in the Parliament and that loud, prolonged discussions that may distract others should be avoided. I ask all members to adhere to those guidelines.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2167E79P155C708845", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Peacock, Peter", "ID": 2167, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Peter Peacock", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Children and Education (Peter Peacock): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 271.0, "ContributionID": 708845, "EditedText": "When Sam Galbraith spoke earlier, he set out the vision for education of Labour and the Liberal Democrats, our partners in the Administration. It is a vision that will see Scotland once again being regarded as a world leader in education. We will have an innovative, flexible and adaptable system, constantly capable of responding to change in our society and to the expectations of parents, pupils and communities throughout Scotland. Education is our top priority, which is why we have released a substantial increase in resources for it. We are employing more teachers and providing a pre-school place for every three and four-year-old. We have created the national grid for learning, using broad-band technology. We are increasing the number of classroom assistants, promoting early intervention programmes and creating new community schools. We are producing education action plans, reducing class sizes and developing study support programmes. We have introduced a qualification for head teachers. Spending is up by 8 per cent this year. The improvement in education bill will be introduced shortly. We are abolishing opting-out schools. That is just a flavour of the most comprehensive programme for education in decades. There has been no mention of any of those points by SNP members, who are incapable of recognising that development is taking place. Across the whole of Scotland, parents and teachers alike welcome our programme.", "EditedTextHTML": "When Sam Galbraith spoke earlier, he set out the vision for education of Labour and the Liberal Democrats, our partners in the Administration. It is a vision that will see Scotland once again being regarded as a world leader in education. We will have an innovative, flexible and adaptable system,

constantly capable of responding to change in our society and to the expectations of parents, pupils and communities throughout Scotland.

Education is our top priority, which is why we have released a substantial increase in resources for it. We are employing more teachers and providing a pre-school place for every three and four-year-old. We have created the national grid for learning, using broad-band technology. We are increasing the number of classroom assistants, promoting early intervention programmes and creating new community schools.

We are producing education action plans, reducing class sizes and developing study support programmes. We have introduced a qualification for head teachers. Spending is up by 8 per cent this year. The improvement in education bill will be introduced shortly. We are abolishing opting-out schools.

That is just a flavour of the most comprehensive programme for education in decades. There has been no mention of any of those points by SNP members, who are incapable of recognising that development is taking place. Across the whole of Scotland, parents and teachers alike welcome our programme.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2167E79P155C708849", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Peacock, Peter", "ID": 2167, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Peter Peacock", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Peter Peacock: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 279.0, "ContributionID": 708849, "EditedText": "I am glad that, at last, there is some recognition that many positive things are happening in Scottish education. The initiatives that I outlined form only part of the picture. We desperately want a teaching profession in Scotland that is well rewarded and well respected. We want to attract new entrants into teaching and to hold them in their careers for longer than we do at present. That is our objective and that is why the Executive has set up a committee of inquiry. Earlier in the debate, considerable concern was expressed about the decline of the status of teachers in our communities. We share that concern. Margo MacDonald, Robin Harper and Dennis Canavan referred to that. I associate myself with Margo MacDonald's analysis—in what she described as her own homespun anecdotes— of the decline of the standing of teachers in terms of pay and respect. That is precisely the question that we want the committee of inquiry to address.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am glad that, at last, there is some recognition that many positive things are happening in Scottish education. The initiatives that I outlined form only part of the picture. We desperately want a teaching profession in Scotland that is well rewarded and well respected. We want to attract new entrants into teaching and to hold them in their careers for longer than we do at present. That is our objective and that is why the Executive has set up a committee of inquiry.

Earlier in the debate, considerable concern was expressed about the decline of the status of teachers in our communities. We share that concern. Margo MacDonald, Robin Harper and Dennis Canavan referred to that. I associate myself with Margo MacDonald's analysis—in what she described as her own homespun anecdotes— of the decline of the standing of teachers in terms of pay and respect. That is precisely the question that we want the committee of inquiry to address.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C708860", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Monteith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 301.0, "ContributionID": 708860, "EditedText": "The statute says:\"The Secretary of State shall make arrangements whereby, in . . . matters in respect of which agreement has not been reached in a committee after they have been considered by the committee\" he shall consult the bodies which are represented on the committee and may include those bodies and call for arbitration. It is clear that the minister can encourage some movement towards that and show that he wants them to come together. Whether he can convince the parties to come together remains to be seen, but we do not see any evidence of an attempt to bring them together in that way.", "EditedTextHTML": "The statute says:

\"The Secretary of State shall make arrangements whereby, in . . . matters in respect of which agreement has not been reached in a committee after they have been considered by the committee\" he shall consult the bodies which are represented on the committee and may include those bodies and call for arbitration. It is clear that the minister can encourage some movement towards that and show that he wants them to come together. Whether he can convince the parties to come together remains to be seen, but we do not see any evidence of an attempt to bring them together in that way.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C708873", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Beattie Media", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26879, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 324.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 324.0, "ID": 26879, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie (Lothians) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 330.0, "ContributionID": 708873, "EditedText": "Okay, man.", "EditedTextHTML": "Okay, man.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2167E79P155C708863", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Peacock, Peter", "ID": 2167, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Peter Peacock", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Peter Peacock: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 307.0, "ContributionID": 708863, "EditedText": "No, Brian, I have already given way to you. Dennis Canavan asked about the competence of the Parliament to deal with the question of the SJNC. If there were ever a question over that, we would look to people such as Dennis Canavan to ensure that the Parliament had the powers to deal with matters within its competence. I remind Dennis that the two teachers on the committee of inquiry are trade union members— one is a member of the Educational Institute of Scotland. They will bring their knowledge of trade unions to the inquiry. Lloyd Quinan said that we had not been listening to teachers or taking account of the outcome of the ballot. However, Sam Galbraith acted within moments of hearing the outcome of the ballot to try to end the deadlock, to move the debate forward and to find the solutions that I have been hinting at. Mary Scanlon rightly referred to the conflicts that have dominated teaching and education over many years and to the difficulties involved in changes in teaching. I cannot give an answer to her question on college deficits, other than to say that her redundancy package may have contributed to costs at Inverness College. I am delighted to say that Highland Council's capital programme for education this year is almost twice what it has been in recent years—no doubt that is owing to the wisdom of the previous administration there. Many members rightly drew attention to the improvements that are taking place in education under this Administration. They were also right to highlight the need to find a solution to the problem of teachers' pay—a long-term solution at the right level, with the right terms and conditions of service and the right mechanisms for keeping those terms and conditions under review. We need a package that will attract and retain well-motivated teachers. That is why the work of the independent inquiry is so important. I am conscious of the time, Presiding Officer. What time do you want me to wind up? Now?", "EditedTextHTML": "No, Brian, I have already given way to you.

Dennis Canavan asked about the competence of the Parliament to deal with the question of the SJNC. If there were ever a question over that, we would look to people such as Dennis Canavan to ensure that the Parliament had the powers to deal with matters within its competence.

I remind Dennis that the two teachers on the committee of inquiry are trade union members— one is a member of the Educational Institute of Scotland. They will bring their knowledge of trade unions to the inquiry.

Lloyd Quinan said that we had not been listening to teachers or taking account of the outcome of the ballot. However, Sam Galbraith acted within moments of hearing the outcome of the ballot to try to end the deadlock, to move the debate forward and to find the solutions that I have been hinting at.

Mary Scanlon rightly referred to the conflicts that have dominated teaching and education over

many years and to the difficulties involved in changes in teaching. I cannot give an answer to her question on college deficits, other than to say that her redundancy package may have contributed to costs at Inverness College. I am delighted to say that Highland Council's capital programme for education this year is almost twice what it has been in recent years—no doubt that is owing to the wisdom of the previous administration there.

Many members rightly drew attention to the improvements that are taking place in education under this Administration. They were also right to highlight the need to find a solution to the problem of teachers' pay—a long-term solution at the right level, with the right terms and conditions of service and the right mechanisms for keeping those terms and conditions under review. We need a package that will attract and retain well-motivated teachers. That is why the work of the independent inquiry is so important.

I am conscious of the time, Presiding Officer. What time do you want me to wind up? Now?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708864", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 309.0, "ContributionID": 708864, "EditedText": "You should have wound up already.", "EditedTextHTML": "You should have wound up already.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2167E79P155C708865", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Peacock, Peter", "ID": 2167, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Peter Peacock", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Peter Peacock: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 311.0, "ContributionID": 708865, "EditedText": "The lesson from the current dispute is that we must find a way of moving forward. We must change the basis of recent negotiations, which have patently failed teachers. That is why we are committed to the independent inquiry. We want an answer to the very real problems that face Scottish education. The SJNC has failed to deliver a better way forward. What Sam Galbraith has set out today and in his statement last week provides a real way forward, and gives ground for some optimism that we can find the right answer for Scottish teachers. I commend his amendment to Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "The lesson from the current dispute is that we must find a way of moving forward. We must change the basis of recent negotiations, which have patently failed teachers. That is why we are committed to the independent inquiry. We want an answer to the very real problems that face Scottish education. The SJNC has failed to deliver a better way forward. What Sam Galbraith has set out today and in his statement last week provides a real way forward, and gives ground for some optimism that we can find the right answer for Scottish teachers. I commend his amendment to Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2010E221P512C708875", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Beattie Media", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26879, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 324.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 324.0, "ID": 26879, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Paterson, Gil", "ID": 2010, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Gil Paterson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Gil Paterson (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 334.0, "ContributionID": 708875, "EditedText": "May I help the First Minister?", "EditedTextHTML": "

May I help the First Minister?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708888", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Beattie Media", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26879, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 324.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 324.0, "ID": 26879, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 360.0, "ContributionID": 708888, "EditedText": "Order.", "EditedTextHTML": "Order.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C708889", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Beattie Media", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26879, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 324.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 324.0, "ID": 26879, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 362.0, "ContributionID": 708889, "EditedText": "I do not want to comment on any particular report. If I did, we would be here for a very long time. I have just made the point that the Standards Committee is independent and reports to the Parliament. I have been sparing in my diktats as to what the committee should or should not do. It would be helpful if others were equally restrained.", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not want to comment on any particular report. If I did, we would be here for a very long time. I have just made the point that the Standards Committee is independent and reports to the Parliament. I have been sparing in my diktats as to what the committee should or should not do. It would be helpful if others were equally restrained.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708871", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Beattie Media", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26879, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 324.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 324.0, "ID": 26879, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 325.0, "ContributionID": 708871, "EditedText": "There is now a ministerial statement on Beattie Media and the activities of professional lobbying firms. I will conclude this business no later than 12:57, and preferably earlier.", "EditedTextHTML": "There is now a ministerial statement on Beattie Media and the activities of professional lobbying firms. I will conclude this business no later than 12:57, and preferably earlier.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708881", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Beattie Media", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26879, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 324.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 324.0, "ID": 26879, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 346.0, "ContributionID": 708881, "EditedText": "Before the First Minister answers that, I must point out that Mr Salmond's second point is a matter for the committee. The First Minister may be able to give an opinion, but he cannot decide it.", "EditedTextHTML": "Before the First Minister answers that, I must point out that Mr Salmond's second point is a matter for the committee. The First Minister may be able to give an opinion, but he cannot decide it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C708883", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Beattie Media", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26879, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 324.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 324.0, "ID": 26879, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 350.0, "ContributionID": 708883, "EditedText": "It is very much a matter for the Standards Committee, and I have made it clear that we will co-operate. I do not want to get into a situation in which we further damage this Parliament and its activities. I agree that we should all be satisfied that there has been no breach of the ministerial code. It may be, from the apology that has been given—there may be further information to come on that—that it is the firm concerned, rather than my colleagues, which must answer questions. I take that view on the basis of what I have seen. I want to be clear, and I am always glad to clarify anything that is required. My understanding is that the diary of my colleague, Jack McConnell, was kept by his private office, and that any invitations that came to him through his constituency office which were relevant to him in his ministerial capacity would be transferred to his ministerial diary and would appear there—that is the only diary that stands. In my statement, I did not say that there had been no conversation with Beattie Media. I said that there had been a conversation, but the constituency secretary strongly denied the version of it that appeared in the sales pitch, recorded in the document that we have now received from The Observer. I went on to say that no formal invitation was ever received, and did not appear in any diary of any sort, even on a provisional basis.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is very much a matter for the Standards Committee, and I have made it clear that we will co-operate. I do not want to get into a situation in which we further damage this Parliament and its activities. I agree that we should all be satisfied that there has been no breach of the ministerial code. It may be, from the apology that has been given—there may be further information to come on that—that it is the firm concerned, rather than my colleagues, which must answer questions. I take that view on the basis of what I have seen.

I want to be clear, and I am always glad to clarify anything that is required. My understanding is that the diary of my colleague, Jack McConnell, was kept by his private office, and that any invitations that came to him through his constituency office which were relevant to him in his ministerial capacity would be transferred to his ministerial diary and would appear there—that is the only diary that stands.

In my statement, I did not say that there had been no conversation with Beattie Media. I said that there had been a conversation, but the constituency secretary strongly denied the version of it that appeared in the sales pitch, recorded in the document that we have now received from The Observer. I went on to say that no formal invitation was ever received, and did not appear in any diary of any sort, even on a provisional basis.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C708891", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Beattie Media", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26879, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 324.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 324.0, "ID": 26879, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 366.0, "ContributionID": 708891, "EditedText": "Mr Canavan makes a series of rather prejudiced statements and value judgments that do not help us at all. If he is asking whether I believe that sleazemongers should not be able to influence this Parliament, I certainly agree. However, that does not tell us what a sleazemonger is. As Mr McLetchie will confirm, as we all could from our experience, a large number of lobbying organisations have access to the Parliament, many of which are a world removed from sleaze. A large number of charitable organisations with special interests lobby ministers. It is a phrase— we all go to be \"lobbied\" on occasion. Those are excellent organisations. At the other end of the scale, there are dangers and possibilities of abuse that must be addressed. The kind of blanket statement made by Mr Canavan does not advance the cause of finding the right solution at all. I hope that he will consider that before he takes the platform again.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Canavan makes a series of rather prejudiced statements and value judgments that do not help us at all. If he is asking whether I believe that sleazemongers should not be able to influence this Parliament, I certainly agree. However, that does not tell us what a sleazemonger is.

As Mr McLetchie will confirm, as we all could from our experience, a large number of lobbying organisations have access to the Parliament, many of which are a world removed from sleaze. A large number of charitable organisations with special interests lobby ministers. It is a phrase— we all go to be \"lobbied\" on occasion. Those are excellent organisations. At the other end of the scale, there are dangers and possibilities of abuse that must be addressed.

The kind of blanket statement made by Mr Canavan does not advance the cause of finding the right solution at all. I hope that he will consider that before he takes the platform again.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C708895", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Beattie Media", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26879, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 324.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 324.0, "ID": 26879, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 374.0, "ContributionID": 708895, "EditedText": "As a generalisation, there might be some force in that. However, if Mr Gallie were to discuss the matter with his friends in industry and business, he would discover—and there were instances of this in the events that we have been discussing and to which my statement refers—that when large and complicated events are mounted, to inaugurate a new project, for example, or if a conference needs to be run, organisations that have taken the business decision not to have a large in-house department to deal with such events might employ outside experts and specialists. Most of the companies that do such work also make representations on behalf of companies. The line is very blurred. It is easy to generalise, but the Standards Committee will have some difficult questions to answer about definitions and the framework in which we want lobbying organisations to operate, if it wants to examine future access by such organisations to this Parliament. The best defence is the vigilance of individual MSPs. However, if a £20 million industrial development were opening in my constituency—I wish one were—and the firm wrote to me to ask whether I would like to come along and be part of the opening ceremony and join my constituents in celebrating the event, it is difficult to imagine that I would phone the firm to ask whether it was using a PR company to organise the event, and that if it was, I would say that I could not go. Such difficulties can arise. We should all recognise them before we start to talk in absolutist terms, although there were nice, easily defined groups of organisations and companies at the heart of the current problem. Question, That the meeting be now adjourned until 2.30 pm today, put and agreed to.—Lord James Douglas-Hamilton.", "EditedTextHTML": "As a generalisation, there might be some force in that. However, if Mr Gallie were to discuss the matter with his friends in industry and business, he would discover—and there were instances of this in the events that we have been discussing and to which my statement refers—that when large and complicated events are mounted, to inaugurate a new project, for example, or if a conference needs to be run, organisations that have taken the business decision not to have a large in-house department to deal with such events might employ outside experts and specialists. Most of the companies that do such work also make representations on behalf of companies. The line is very blurred. It is easy to generalise, but the Standards Committee will have some difficult questions to answer about definitions and the framework in which we want lobbying organisations to operate, if it wants to examine future access by such organisations to this Parliament.

The best defence is the vigilance of individual MSPs. However, if a £20 million industrial development were opening in my constituency—I wish one were—and the firm wrote to me to ask whether I would like to come along and be part of the opening ceremony and join my constituents in celebrating the event, it is difficult to imagine that I would phone the firm to ask whether it was using a PR company to organise the event, and that if it was, I would say that I could not go. Such difficulties can arise. We should all recognise them before we start to talk in absolutist terms, although there were nice, easily defined groups of organisations and companies at the heart of the current problem.

Question, That the meeting be now adjourned until 2.30 pm today, put and agreed to.—[Lord James Douglas-Hamilton.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "C708896", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Beattie Media", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26879, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 324.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 324.0, "ID": 26879, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 376.0, "ContributionID": 708896, "EditedText": "Meeting adjourned at 12:59.", "EditedTextHTML": "Meeting adjourned at 12:59.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "C708897", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Beattie Media", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26879, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 324.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 324.0, "ID": 26879, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 378.0, "ContributionID": 708897, "EditedText": "On resuming—", "EditedTextHTML": "On resuming—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708898", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26880, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26881, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 380.0, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 380.0, "ID": 26881, "ParentID": 26880 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 381.0, "ContributionID": 708898, "EditedText": "The first item this afternoon is question time and I make my usual plea for short questions and answers. I call Duncan Hamilton.", "EditedTextHTML": "The first item this afternoon is question time and I make my usual plea for short questions and answers. I call Duncan Hamilton.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1985E207P501C708899", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26880, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26881, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 380.0, "QuestionHeading": "Islands Needs Allowance", "QuestionHeadingID": 26882, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 383.0, "DisplayOrder": 383.0, "ID": 26882, "ParentID": 26881 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hamilton, Mr Duncan", "ID": 1985, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "1. Mr Duncan Hamilton (Highlands and Islands) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 384.0, "ContributionID": 708899, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what support it is giving to the efforts of Argyll and Bute Council to secure special islands needs allowance for the area. (S1O-391) The Presiding Officer: Mr Jack McConnell?", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what support it is giving to the efforts of Argyll and Bute Council to secure special islands needs allowance for the area. (S1O-391) The Presiding Officer: Mr Jack McConnell?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2118E157P454C708901", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26880, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26881, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 380.0, "QuestionHeading": "Islands Needs Allowance", "QuestionHeadingID": 26882, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 383.0, "DisplayOrder": 383.0, "ID": 26882, "ParentID": 26881 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Quinan, Mr Lloyd", "ID": 2118, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lloyd Quinan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Lloyd Quinan (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 388.0, "ContributionID": 708901, "EditedText": "Phone Beattie's. Laughter.", "EditedTextHTML": "

Phone Beattie's. [Laughter.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708902", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26880, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26881, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 380.0, "QuestionHeading": "Islands Needs Allowance", "QuestionHeadingID": 26882, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 383.0, "DisplayOrder": 383.0, "ID": 26882, "ParentID": 26881 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 390.0, "ContributionID": 708902, "EditedText": "Would somebody else like to answer?", "EditedTextHTML": "Would somebody else like to answer?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1985E207P501C708908", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26880, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26881, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 380.0, "QuestionHeading": "Islands Needs Allowance", "QuestionHeadingID": 26882, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 383.0, "DisplayOrder": 383.0, "ID": 26882, "ParentID": 26881 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hamilton, Mr Duncan", "ID": 1985, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Hamilton: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 402.0, "ContributionID": 708908, "EditedText": "I am not sure which of Mr McConnell's diaries his current appointment was in, but I note that he is now here. Laughter. Does the minister—whichever of the two ministers cares to answer—recognise the threat to the sustainability of island communities caused by the cuts in the budget for Argyll and Bute Council? Does he recognise the absurdity of a council that has 27 islands under its jurisdiction getting not one penny of the £90 million that has been allocated since the reorganisation of local government? Will he recognise the necessity for an interim payment to Argyll and Bute Council to stop rural schools shutting and island communities withering?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am not sure which of Mr McConnell's diaries his current appointment was in, but I note that he is now here. [Laughter.]

Does the minister—whichever of the two ministers cares to answer—recognise the threat to the sustainability of island communities caused by the cuts in the budget for Argyll and Bute Council? Does he recognise the absurdity of a council that has 27 islands under its jurisdiction getting not one penny of the £90 million that has been allocated since the reorganisation of local government? Will he recognise the necessity for an interim payment to Argyll and Bute Council to stop rural schools shutting and island communities withering?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C708918", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26880, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26881, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 380.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meeting)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26885, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 424.0, "DisplayOrder": 424.0, "ID": 26885, "ParentID": 26881 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "4. Dennis Canavan (Falkirk West): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 425.0, "ContributionID": 708918, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what is on the agenda for the next meeting between the First Minister and the Secretary of State for Scotland. (S1O-383) The First Minister (Donald Dewar): Matters of mutual interest.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what is on the agenda for the next meeting between the First Minister and the Secretary of State for Scotland. (S1O-383) The First Minister (Donald Dewar): Matters of mutual interest.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C708919", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26880, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26881, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 380.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meeting)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26885, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 424.0, "DisplayOrder": 424.0, "ID": 26885, "ParentID": 26881 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 427.0, "ContributionID": 708919, "EditedText": "Is it not rather humiliating that the First Minister apparently required the intervention of Downing Street to bury the hatchet with the Secretary of State for Scotland? Will the First Minister tell the Secretary of State for Scotland that the First Minister's first loyalty is to this Parliament and to the people of Scotland? The forthcoming memorandum of understanding should make that absolutely clear, even though the First Minister might feel tempted to bury the hatchet in John Reid's heid. Laughter.", "EditedTextHTML": "Is it not rather humiliating that the First Minister apparently required the intervention of Downing Street to bury the hatchet with the Secretary of State for Scotland? Will the First Minister tell the Secretary of State for Scotland that the First Minister's first loyalty is to this Parliament and to the people of Scotland? The forthcoming memorandum of understanding should make that absolutely clear, even though the First Minister might feel tempted to bury the hatchet in John Reid's heid. [Laughter.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C708920", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26880, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26881, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 380.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meeting)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26885, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 424.0, "DisplayOrder": 424.0, "ID": 26885, "ParentID": 26881 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 429.0, "ContributionID": 708920, "EditedText": "I think it entirely appropriate that people should laugh at Mr Canavan as he makes such statements. I do not regard that as a very serious contribution. I work very closely with the Secretary of State for Scotland. It is important that I do so and in the interests of this Parliament, of the country and of the United Kingdom. I am pleased to say that I will continue to work very closely with him and enjoy and benefit from the process.", "EditedTextHTML": "I think it entirely appropriate that people should laugh at Mr Canavan as he makes such statements. I do not regard that as a very serious contribution. I work very closely with the Secretary of State for Scotland. It is important that I do so and in the interests of this Parliament, of the country and of the United Kingdom. I am pleased to say that I will continue to work very closely with him and enjoy and benefit from the process.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2029E47P167C708922", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26880, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26881, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 380.0, "QuestionHeading": "Paisley", "QuestionHeadingID": 26886, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 431.0, "DisplayOrder": 431.0, "ID": 26886, "ParentID": 26881 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Henry, Hugh", "ID": 2029, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Hugh Henry", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Hugh Henry: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 434.0, "ContributionID": 708922, "EditedText": "While the minister acknowledges the contribution made by the Paisley Daily Express campaign in promoting Paisley and its economy, does he agree that traffic access to Paisley is critical for the survival of its economy? If so, does he agree that urgent action is necessary to tackle traffic congestion on the M8? Otherwise, not only Paisley's economy will be prejudiced—so will the future of Glasgow airport.", "EditedTextHTML": "While the minister acknowledges the contribution made by the Paisley Daily Express campaign in promoting Paisley and its economy, does he agree that traffic access to Paisley is critical for the survival of its economy? If so, does he agree that urgent action is necessary to tackle traffic congestion on the M8? Otherwise, not only Paisley's economy will be prejudiced—so will the future of Glasgow airport.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708923", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26880, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26881, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 380.0, "QuestionHeading": "Paisley", "QuestionHeadingID": 26886, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 431.0, "DisplayOrder": 431.0, "ID": 26886, "ParentID": 26881 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 436.0, "ContributionID": 708923, "EditedText": "That is a question for another minister.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is a question for another minister.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C708925", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26880, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26881, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 380.0, "QuestionHeading": "Local Enterprise Companies", "QuestionHeadingID": 26887, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 438.0, "DisplayOrder": 438.0, "ID": 26887, "ParentID": 26881 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 441.0, "ContributionID": 708925, "EditedText": "Can the minister confirm whether Strathclyde police is currently investigating irregularities in training contracts awarded by Lanarkshire Development Agency? If it is, will he advise when he will be in a position to make a statement on the outcome of those inquiries? Will he confirm that no similar irregularities are present in the training contracts awarded by other local enterprise companies?", "EditedTextHTML": "Can the minister confirm whether Strathclyde police is currently investigating irregularities in training contracts awarded by Lanarkshire Development Agency? If it is, will he advise when he will be in a position to make a statement on the outcome of those inquiries? Will he confirm that no similar irregularities are present in the training contracts awarded by other local enterprise companies?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C708934", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26880, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26881, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 380.0, "QuestionHeading": "Housing", "QuestionHeadingID": 26889, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 452.0, "DisplayOrder": 452.0, "ID": 26889, "ParentID": 26881 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 461.0, "ContributionID": 708934, "EditedText": "Under the previous, voluntary scheme, a mere 287 houses were registered. Under the new scheme, we envisage that somewhere between 7,000 and 10,000 properties in multiple occupation will be covered. I know that there are many students in the member's constituency. I expect that when Scottish students return to classes this time next year there will be a mandatory licensing scheme in place.", "EditedTextHTML": "Under the previous, voluntary scheme, a mere 287 houses were registered. Under the new scheme, we envisage that somewhere between 7,000 and 10,000 properties in multiple occupation will be covered. I know that there are many students in the member's constituency. I expect that when Scottish students return to classes this time next year there will be a mandatory licensing scheme in place.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1996E124P211C708936", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26880, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26881, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 380.0, "QuestionHeading": "East Ayrshire Council", "QuestionHeadingID": 26890, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 463.0, "DisplayOrder": 463.0, "ID": 26890, "ParentID": 26881 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAveety, Mr Frank", "ID": 1996, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Shettleston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Local Government", "SpeakerName": "Frank McAveety", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Local Government (Mr Frank McAveety): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 466.0, "ContributionID": 708936, "EditedText": "Presiding Officer, I am extremely fond of TS Eliot's work and I recommend that you read it—Laughter. There is a wonderful opportunity to transfer the letters of TS Eliot for some other offensive title. I understand that East Ayrshire Council's external auditor, who is appointed by the Accounts Commission, has made a wide range of recommendations to the council as part of the audit process. I understand also that the recommendations include a request for the preparation of an action plan to deal with a backlog of benefit cases. The controller of audit also submitted a statutory report regarding East Ayrshire's direct labour organisation to the Accounts Commission in December 1998, and the commission asked the controller to report back within a year. It is not appropriate for me to become involved in the audit process, as it is a matter between a council and its auditor.", "EditedTextHTML": "Presiding Officer, I am extremely fond of TS Eliot's work and I recommend that you read it—[Laughter.] There is a wonderful opportunity to transfer the letters of TS Eliot for some other offensive title.

I understand that East Ayrshire Council's external auditor, who is appointed by the Accounts Commission, has made a wide range of recommendations to the council as part of the audit process. I understand also that the recommendations include a request for the preparation of an action plan to deal with a backlog of benefit cases. The controller of audit also submitted a statutory report regarding East Ayrshire's direct labour organisation to the Accounts Commission in December 1998, and the commission asked the controller to report back within a year. It is not appropriate for me to become involved in the audit process, as it is a matter between a council and its auditor.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1996E124P211C708940", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26880, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26881, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 380.0, "QuestionHeading": "East Ayrshire Council", "QuestionHeadingID": 26890, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 463.0, "DisplayOrder": 463.0, "ID": 26890, "ParentID": 26881 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAveety, Mr Frank", "ID": 1996, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Shettleston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Local Government", "SpeakerName": "Frank McAveety", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McAveety: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 474.0, "ContributionID": 708940, "EditedText": "I will clarify the roles of the minister and the local authority. The local authority is responsible for its audited accounts and will be held responsible for them when they are published. We have encouraged the local authority to ensure that it meets the specifications set by the Accounts Commission. I am sure that East Ayrshire Council is endeavouring to do that.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will clarify the roles of the minister and the local authority. The local authority is responsible for its audited accounts and will be held responsible for them when they are published. We have encouraged the local authority to ensure that it meets the specifications set by the Accounts Commission. I am sure that East Ayrshire Council is endeavouring to do that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2100E64P254C708943", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26880, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26881, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 380.0, "QuestionHeading": "Fish Farming", "QuestionHeadingID": 26891, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 476.0, "DisplayOrder": 476.0, "ID": 26891, "ParentID": 26881 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Home Robertson, John", "ID": 2100, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Lothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "John Home Robertson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Home Robertson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 481.0, "ContributionID": 708943, "EditedText": "We appreciate that this is an important resource and we are concerned about the drastic decline of those stocks. That is why we set up the tripartite group, from which we are looking forward to getting practical recommendations—I hope next month. We will look to act on those recommendations.", "EditedTextHTML": "We appreciate that this is an important resource and we are concerned about the drastic decline of those stocks. That is why we set up the tripartite group, from which we are looking forward to getting practical recommendations—I hope next month. We will look to act on those recommendations.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C708947", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26880, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26881, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 380.0, "QuestionHeading": "Pig Industry", "QuestionHeadingID": 26892, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 483.0, "DisplayOrder": 483.0, "ID": 26892, "ParentID": 26881 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ross Finnie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 490.0, "ContributionID": 708947, "EditedText": "Mr Swinney will be well aware that there are two major elements of welfare standards. The first is the stall and tether ban. As he will know, European directive 91/630 sets the minimum standard. Unfortunately, that did not carry through Europe and it will not be fully applied until 2005. That is not necessarily a cost that we could bear. I think that the correct course of action is the one that we are taking, which is to tell Europe at every opportunity that we want it to accelerate uniform standards. The second element relates to meat and bone meal. As Mr Swinney will also be aware, the Spongiform Encephalopathy Advisory Committee recently recommended that porcine meat and bone meal was not suitable, so that cost remains. In my discussions with the industry, it has become clear that while transport costs are a factor, the most pressing cases were about welfare and the importation of animals that were alleged not to meet our welfare standards.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Swinney will be well aware that there are two major elements of welfare standards. The first is the stall and tether ban. As he will know, European directive 91/630 sets the minimum standard. Unfortunately, that did not carry through Europe and it will not be fully applied until 2005. That is not necessarily a cost that we could bear. I think that the correct course of action is the one that we are taking, which is to tell Europe at every opportunity that we want it to accelerate uniform standards.

The second element relates to meat and bone meal. As Mr Swinney will also be aware, the Spongiform Encephalopathy Advisory Committee recently recommended that porcine meat and bone meal was not suitable, so that cost remains.

In my discussions with the industry, it has become clear that while transport costs are a factor, the most pressing cases were about welfare and the importation of animals that were alleged not to meet our welfare standards.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C708949", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26880, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26881, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 380.0, "QuestionHeading": "Sea Transport", "QuestionHeadingID": 26893, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 492.0, "DisplayOrder": 492.0, "ID": 26893, "ParentID": 26881 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 495.0, "ContributionID": 708949, "EditedText": "Given that 90 per cent of UK trade is dependent on seaports, ought not the Scottish Executive to introduce proposals to address increasing congestion on the access routes to the ports in the south of England that Scottish industry uses? Should not it consider giving the support necessary for infrastructure developments to create a Scottish port with direct access to the European mainland?", "EditedTextHTML": "Given that 90 per cent of UK trade is dependent on seaports, ought not the Scottish Executive to introduce proposals to address increasing congestion on the access routes to the ports in the south of England that Scottish industry uses? Should not it consider giving the support necessary for infrastructure developments to create a Scottish port with direct access to the

European mainland?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1986E53P206C708951", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26880, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26881, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 380.0, "QuestionHeading": "Road Safety", "QuestionHeadingID": 26894, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 499.0, "DisplayOrder": 499.0, "ID": 26894, "ParentID": 26881 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeil, Duncan", "ID": 1986, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Greenock and Inverclyde" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan McNeil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "13. Mr Duncan McNeil (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 500.0, "ContributionID": 708951, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it has any plans to introduce traffic calming or other measures to protect pedestrians on the A78 trunk road from the IBM plant to Inverkip. (S1O-403) The Deputy Minister for Highlands and Islands and Gaelic (Mr Alasdair Morrison): There are no plans to introduce traffic calming or other measures on the A78 from the IBM plant to Inverkip.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it has any plans to introduce traffic calming or other measures to protect pedestrians on the A78 trunk road from the IBM plant to Inverkip. (S1O-403) The Deputy Minister for Highlands and Islands and Gaelic (Mr Alasdair Morrison): There are no plans to introduce traffic calming or other measures on the A78 from the IBM plant to Inverkip.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1889E118P162C708953", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26880, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26881, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 380.0, "QuestionHeading": "Road Safety", "QuestionHeadingID": 26894, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 499.0, "DisplayOrder": 499.0, "ID": 26894, "ParentID": 26881 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morrison, Mr Alasdair", "ID": 1889, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Western Isles" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morrison", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Morrison: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 504.0, "ContributionID": 708953, "EditedText": "Mr McNeil raises legitimate concerns, which I will be happy to refer to my colleague Sarah Boyack and the relevant officials.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr McNeil raises legitimate concerns, which I will be happy to refer to my colleague Sarah Boyack and the relevant officials.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1996E124P211C708958", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26880, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26881, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 380.0, "QuestionHeading": "Late Payment", "QuestionHeadingID": 26895, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 506.0, "DisplayOrder": 506.0, "ID": 26895, "ParentID": 26881 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAveety, Mr Frank", "ID": 1996, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Shettleston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Local Government", "SpeakerName": "Frank McAveety", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McAveety: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 515.0, "ContributionID": 708958, "EditedText": "The question was directed at me, Presiding Officer.", "EditedTextHTML": "The question was directed at me, Presiding Officer.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C708960", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26880, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26881, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 380.0, "QuestionHeading": "Driving Test Centres", "QuestionHeadingID": 26896, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 517.0, "DisplayOrder": 517.0, "ID": 26896, "ParentID": 26881 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bruce Crawford: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 520.0, "ContributionID": 708960, "EditedText": "Does the minister agree that investigation into the viability of outstations and occasional centres by the DSA in Scotland is particularly concerning for rural areas, given that all rural test centres are to be reviewed? Does he also agree that any future closure programme may have an economically debilitating effect on the independent driving school sector, especially given the high fuel costs in Scotland? Does he accept that any closure resulting from the DSA investigations will inevitably lead to increased motor usage and, therefore, militate against achieving the carbon dioxide emissions targets that were agreed at Kyoto?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the minister agree that investigation into the viability of outstations and occasional centres by the DSA in Scotland is particularly concerning for rural areas, given that all rural test centres are to be reviewed? Does he also agree that any future closure programme may have an economically debilitating effect on the independent driving school sector, especially given the high fuel costs in Scotland? Does he accept that any closure resulting from the DSA investigations will inevitably lead to increased motor usage and, therefore, militate against achieving the carbon dioxide emissions targets that were agreed at Kyoto?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1996E124P211C708963", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26880, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26881, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 380.0, "QuestionHeading": "Aberdeen City Council", "QuestionHeadingID": 26897, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 524.0, "DisplayOrder": 524.0, "ID": 26897, "ParentID": 26881 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAveety, Mr Frank", "ID": 1996, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Shettleston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Local Government", "SpeakerName": "Frank McAveety", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Local Government (Mr Frank McAveety): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 527.0, "ContributionID": 708963, "EditedText": "I am tempted to respond facetiously, but I will be serious on this occasion. The Executive and—I am sure—the Scottish Parliament will want to pass on their congratulations on this achievement to everyone involved at Aberdeen City Council and to the other Scottish towns in the British team, Perth and Alness. We think it is blooming wonderful.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am tempted to respond facetiously, but I will be serious on this occasion.

The Executive and—I am sure—the Scottish Parliament will want to pass on their congratulations on this achievement to everyone involved at Aberdeen City Council and to the other Scottish towns in the British team, Perth and Alness. We think it is blooming wonderful.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1926E190P479C708964", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26880, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26881, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 380.0, "QuestionHeading": "Aberdeen City Council", "QuestionHeadingID": 26897, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 524.0, "DisplayOrder": 524.0, "ID": 26897, "ParentID": 26881 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Adam, Brian", "ID": 1926, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Adam", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Brian Adam: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 529.0, "ContributionID": 708964, "EditedText": "Will the minister discuss with his colleagues the possibility of improving the litter situation by amending the Environment Protection Act 1990 to return to environment protection officers the power that requires persons who are littering to give them their names?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister discuss with his colleagues the possibility of improving the litter situation by amending the Environment Protection Act 1990 to return to environment protection officers the power that requires persons who are littering to give them their names?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1996E124P211C708965", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26880, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26881, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 380.0, "QuestionHeading": "Aberdeen City Council", "QuestionHeadingID": 26897, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 524.0, "DisplayOrder": 524.0, "ID": 26897, "ParentID": 26881 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAveety, Mr Frank", "ID": 1996, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Shettleston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Local Government", "SpeakerName": "Frank McAveety", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McAveety: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 531.0, "ContributionID": 708965, "EditedText": "I welcome any measure that will improve the environment. I recommend that we encourage local authorities to have proper antilitter strategies in their areas. On visits to Aberdeen, I have been impressed by the quality of the work that has been undertaken by Aberdeen City Council. It realises the importance of visual attractiveness to a city centre.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome any measure that will improve the environment. I recommend that we encourage local authorities to have proper antilitter strategies in their areas.

On visits to Aberdeen, I have been impressed by the quality of the work that has been undertaken by Aberdeen City Council. It realises the importance of visual attractiveness to a city centre.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C708978", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26901, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 554.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26902, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 555.0, "QuestionHeading": "Chancellor of the Exchequer (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26903, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 556.0, "DisplayOrder": 556.0, "ID": 26903, "ParentID": 26902 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 563.0, "ContributionID": 708978, "EditedText": "What I am complaining about is the price of petrol and fuel and the damage that that is doing to the Scottish economy. Does the First Minister consider that indirect—or unfair— taxation such as tuition fees, toll taxes and fuel taxes is among the reasons for Labour's incredible shrinking majority in Hamilton South, from 16,000 to 600? Or does he accept the view of Westminster Labour MPs who say that it is all the fault of the Scottish Executive? To quote one, \"It could not have been our fault. We were not even in session.\" Who is responsible for Labour's shrinking majority in Hamilton?", "EditedTextHTML": "What I am complaining about is the price of petrol and fuel and the damage that that is doing to the Scottish economy. Does the First Minister consider that indirect—or unfair— taxation such as tuition fees, toll taxes and fuel taxes is among the reasons for Labour's incredible shrinking majority in Hamilton South, from 16,000 to 600? Or does he accept the view of Westminster Labour MPs who say that it is all the fault of the Scottish Executive? To quote one, \"It could not have been our fault. We were not even in session.\" Who is responsible for Labour's shrinking majority in Hamilton?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C708979", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26901, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 554.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26902, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 555.0, "QuestionHeading": "Chancellor of the Exchequer (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26903, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 556.0, "DisplayOrder": 556.0, "ID": 26903, "ParentID": 26902 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 565.0, "ContributionID": 708979, "EditedText": "I thought that Mr Salmond was about to ask a serious question, pressing me about the problems that he sees arising from the fuel tax escalator. That would have been perfectly legitimate. Unfortunately, he has spoiled it by moving off into rather cheap political points, based, apparently, on gossip that he has presumably picked up from afar, as these days he seldom visits Westminster to defend Scotland's interests.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thought that Mr Salmond was about to ask a serious question, pressing me about the problems that he sees arising from the fuel tax escalator. That would have been perfectly legitimate. Unfortunately, he has spoiled it by moving off into rather cheap political points, based, apparently, on gossip that he has presumably picked up from afar, as these days he seldom visits Westminster to defend Scotland's interests.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C708986", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26901, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 554.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26902, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 555.0, "QuestionHeading": "Freedom of Information", "QuestionHeadingID": 26904, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 571.0, "DisplayOrder": 571.0, "ID": 26904, "ParentID": 26902 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 580.0, "ContributionID": 708986, "EditedText": "I will not take lessons on freedom of information from the member of a party that, when in government, sent a senior civil servant halfway round the world to be economical with the truth. It is misleading to suggest that the decision was based directly on the work that was done by the national services division. That work was only one part of the advice on which the minister drew. It was complemented by a joint study by Greater Glasgow Health Board and Lothian Health. There was also a pan-Scotland dimension, which neither the national services division nor health boards were able to offer—that was supplied by the chief executive of the national health service in Scotland and the chief medical officer. The whole process was set out in a written answer that was given to Mr Kenneth Gibson on 10 September. The national services division's work does not give anything like the complete picture of the issues that were raised in this highly complex and difficult decision.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will not take lessons on freedom of information from the member of a party that, when in government, sent a senior civil servant halfway round the world to be economical with the truth.

It is misleading to suggest that the decision was based directly on the work that was done by the national services division. That work was only one part of the advice on which the minister drew. It was complemented by a joint study by Greater Glasgow Health Board and Lothian Health. There was also a pan-Scotland dimension, which neither the national services division nor health boards were able to offer—that was supplied by the chief executive of the national health service in Scotland and the chief medical officer. The whole process was set out in a written answer that was given to Mr Kenneth Gibson on 10 September. The national services division's work does not give

anything like the complete picture of the issues that were raised in this highly complex and difficult decision.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C708988", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26901, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 554.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26902, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 555.0, "QuestionHeading": "Freedom of Information", "QuestionHeadingID": 26904, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 571.0, "DisplayOrder": 571.0, "ID": 26904, "ParentID": 26902 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 584.0, "ContributionID": 708988, "EditedText": "The reports formed part of the advice that was given. Susan Deacon has been very open about this. She has written a four-page letter to the chairman of the trusts, has issued detailed news releases and has written a newspaper article setting out her reasons. The whole Parliament is agreed that this is a complex and difficult issue. Ministers receive advice from a number of sources. If frank and candid advice is to continue to be given to Government, it must, in many cases, remain confidential.", "EditedTextHTML": "The reports formed part of the advice that was given. Susan Deacon has been very open about this. She has written a four-page letter to the chairman of the trusts, has issued detailed news releases and has written a newspaper article setting out her reasons. The whole Parliament is agreed that this is a complex and difficult issue. Ministers receive advice from a number of sources. If frank and candid advice is to continue to be given to Government, it must, in many cases, remain confidential.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1901E57P277C708991", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26901, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 554.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26902, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 555.0, "QuestionHeading": "Land Reform", "QuestionHeadingID": 26905, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 586.0, "DisplayOrder": 586.0, "ID": 26905, "ParentID": 26902 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Allan", "ID": 1901, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Cunninghame North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Allan Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Allan Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 591.0, "ContributionID": 708991, "EditedText": "Will the minister clarify who has the authority to exercise the powers to which he refers? Is he aware of the widespread view in crofting areas that problems of absenteeism and other issues could be more effectively addressed if crofting estates were under community ownership? Is he also aware of the concern about the fact that the white paper on land reform did not contain the commitment that was given in Lord Sewel's green paper to the proactive right of crofting communities to buy land? Will he give an assurance that the community right to buy will be included in the first tranche of land reform legislation?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister clarify who has the authority to exercise the powers to which he refers? Is he aware of the widespread view in crofting areas that problems of absenteeism and other issues could be more effectively addressed if crofting estates were under community ownership? Is he also aware of the concern about the fact that the white paper on land reform did not contain the commitment that was given in Lord Sewel's green paper to the proactive right of crofting communities to buy land? Will he give an assurance that the community right to buy will be included in the first tranche of land reform legislation?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C708992", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26901, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 554.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26902, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 555.0, "QuestionHeading": "Land Reform", "QuestionHeadingID": 26905, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 586.0, "DisplayOrder": 586.0, "ID": 26905, "ParentID": 26902 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ross Finnie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 593.0, "ContributionID": 708992, "EditedText": "Landlords have the ultimate control in respect of removing absentee crofters. It must be said that most landlords do not act or exercise those powers. In terms of future legislation, we will consider the possibility of giving the Crofters Commission greater powers to act in place of a landlord who is not pursuing the matter. The second point raised by Allan Wilson relates to the right to buy, and I am pleased to say that we are currently examining the responses to the first white paper on land reform. We are giving earnest consideration to including a crofting community right to buy in the first tranche of land reform legislation.", "EditedTextHTML": "Landlords have the ultimate control in respect of removing absentee crofters. It must be said that most landlords do not act or exercise those powers. In terms of future legislation, we will consider the possibility of giving the Crofters Commission greater powers to act in place of a landlord who is not pursuing the matter.

The second point raised by Allan Wilson relates to the right to buy, and I am pleased to say that we are currently examining the responses to the first white paper on land reform. We are giving earnest consideration to including a crofting community right to buy in the first tranche of land reform legislation.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708997", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26901, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 554.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26902, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 555.0, "QuestionHeading": "Land Reform", "QuestionHeadingID": 26905, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 586.0, "DisplayOrder": 586.0, "ID": 26905, "ParentID": 26902 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 603.0, "ContributionID": 708997, "EditedText": "That concludes question time.", "EditedTextHTML": "That concludes question time.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709000", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26906, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 605.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 605.0, "ID": 26906, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 611.0, "ContributionID": 709000, "EditedText": "Hear, hear.", "EditedTextHTML": "Hear, hear.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C709001", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26906, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 605.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 605.0, "ID": 26906, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 613.0, "ContributionID": 709001, "EditedText": "I thought that that might appeal to my colleagues in the coalition. The Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill is the first bill in the full legislative programme of the new Scottish Executive. Our financial procedures in the Executive and in the Parliament will set the standard for all other decisions that follow, and they will be based on the principles that I mentioned. The reputation of this Parliament and of the Scottish ministers should be our top priority, because, across the world, perceptions of Scotland will be affected by all that we do. Specifically, in the areas of budgeting, of consultations on financial priorities, of auditing and of accountability, we must and we will create a system of which not just I, but all MSPs and all Scotland, can be proud. The people of this nation deserve no less. The bill faces a tight timetable. It is wide- ranging, and I am grateful to the members of the Audit Committee and the Finance Committee for undertaking to finish their own deliberations in the time available. The general purpose of the bill is to set out the framework of the financial relationship between the Parliament and the Executive. It sets out the conditions under which the Executive can spend money, how that money must be accounted for, the arrangement for the auditing of our accounts and the accounts of other public bodies, and the accountability of officials. At its heart lie the recommendations of the financial issues advisory group. FIAG, which is made up of individuals who are drawn from a cross-section of the community, was set up in 1998 and reported early in 1999. It was not until the Executive was elected that we were able to go out to consultation and start the process of working FIAG's recommendations into a bill. Before moving on, I would like to thank the members of FIAG again for doing such a thorough job and for preparing recommendations that we could take forward into legislation. The general principles of the bill build on those of FIAG itself. They set out five key objectives to ensure that our procedures would: first, ensure probity in the handling of public funds under the Parliament's control; secondly, help to maximise the cost-effectiveness of expenditure; thirdly, provide the information which the Parliament needs to make informed and timely decisions and to judge the probity and wider value of the actions of the Executive; fourthly, provide the Scottish people with understandable, consistent, relevant and timely information; and lastly, contain the overhead and compliance costs of the procedures. The Executive has every intention of living up to those aspirations. I hope that the Parliament will seize the opportunity that that presents. I hope that members will help the Executive to take the, sometimes hard, funding decisions that will be necessary and to ensure that the money that we spend delivers the results that we all expect. The bill deals only with the FIAG recommendations that require legislation. The rest are to be implemented in other ways. Some of them have already been implemented. They have been written into the Parliament's standing orders. The procedures for budget bills, for example, are based on FIAG's proposals.A number of other issues will need written agreements between the Parliament and the Executive so that the rights and obligations of both parties are made clear. Such an approach would be more appropriate than producing legislation, and would be used, for example, for the procedures to be followed by the Executive for agreeing the format of accounts. At stage 2 of the debate on this bill, I plan to submit to the Parliament proposals on how the Finance Committee and the Audit Committee might, on behalf of the Parliament, work with the Executive to decide on accounting formats. I will also submit other proposals for agreement on various procedures at that time. Finally, there are recommendations on which the Parliament will need to legislate by using budget bills. That is partly because the recommendations are inherent in the purpose of the budget bill—the level of Parliamentary control, for example—and partly because the standing orders mean that certain proposals can be only in budget bills. The proposal, for example, that revisions to budget acts might be made in secondary legislation will have to be in budget bills, unless the standing orders are changed while this bill is still before Parliament. The bill is in two main parts. The first part sets out procedures for authorising the use of Scottish public resources, and the second concentrates on holding to account those who spend our money. Together, both parts provide the framework for sound management of Scotland's finances. The first principle is that resources can be used only with the approval of Parliament. In other words, the Executive can spend money only if Parliament so authorises. That fundamental principle is at the heart of the relationship between Parliament and the Executive. The bill rules that cash cannot be spent without the Parliament's approval and enables the Parliament to set limits on the amount of cash that can be spent. As a further control, the bill establishes a rule that ministers may not draw on the Scottish consolidated fund without the written authority of the Auditor General for Scotland. Having set out the principle that resources cannot be used without the Parliament's consent, however, the bill goes on to consider situations in which the Executive might need to use resources before the Parliament has agreed them. The first such situation is in the event of Parliament being unable to approve a budget act before the start of the financial year. The bill provides a system which will enable front-line services to continue to receive limited funding until a budget act is agreed. The second is to meet urgent unforeseen demand. No matter how good our financial planning is, there will be cases where money will need to be spent quickly. The bill provides ministers with a limited spending capability for such occasions. That will not be a charter for ministers to print money, as the bill requires ministers to report to Parliament as soon as they can. We plan to propose a written understanding to ensure that the Parliament hears of any contingency spending promptly, and hears of it first. Spending bodies in Scotland currently have a range of borrowing powers. In the past, the borrowing of those bodies has been controlled by ministers without any annual parliamentary control. We agree with FIAG's conclusion that such borrowing may be subject to the control of Parliament. The bill puts that principle into practice. Finally, this part of the bill has a section on the financial arrangements for the Keeper of the Registers of Scotland, which makes provisions for the Keeper of the Registers to operate on a trading fund basis. As I have said, the second main part of the bill deals with audit and with holding the spenders of money to account. It puts in place arrangements for the establishment of a unified public audit service staffed by personnel who currently work for the National Audit Office and the Accounts Commission. That organisation, called Audit Scotland, will provide all the functions needed for the Auditor General for Scotland and the Accounts Commission to carry out their statutory duties. While the Auditor General and the Accounts Commission will have policy responsibility for their own areas and will decide who should carry out an audit, Audit Scotland will carry out on their behalf all the actions needed to deliver that audit.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thought that that might appeal to my colleagues in the coalition.

The Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill is the first bill in the full legislative programme of the new Scottish Executive. Our financial procedures in the Executive and in the Parliament will set the standard for all other decisions that follow, and they will be based on the principles that I mentioned. The reputation of this Parliament and of the Scottish ministers should be our top priority, because, across the world, perceptions of Scotland will be affected by all that we do. Specifically, in the areas of budgeting, of consultations on financial priorities, of auditing and of accountability, we must and we will create a system of which not just I, but all MSPs and all Scotland, can be proud. The people of this nation deserve no less.

The bill faces a tight timetable. It is wide- ranging, and I am grateful to the members of the Audit Committee and the Finance Committee for undertaking to finish their own deliberations in the time available.

The general purpose of the bill is to set out the framework of the financial relationship between the Parliament and the Executive. It sets out the conditions under which the Executive can spend money, how that money must be accounted for, the arrangement for the auditing of our accounts and the accounts of other public bodies, and the accountability of officials.

At its heart lie the recommendations of the financial issues advisory group. FIAG, which is made up of individuals who are drawn from a cross-section of the community, was set up in 1998 and reported early in 1999. It was not until the Executive was elected that we were able to go out to consultation and start the process of working FIAG's recommendations into a bill. Before moving on, I would like to thank the members of FIAG again for doing such a thorough job and for preparing recommendations that we could take forward into legislation.

The general principles of the bill build on those of FIAG itself. They set out five key objectives to ensure that our procedures would: first, ensure probity in the handling of public funds under the Parliament's control; secondly, help to maximise the cost-effectiveness of expenditure; thirdly, provide the information which the Parliament needs to make informed and timely decisions and to judge the probity and wider value of the actions of the Executive; fourthly, provide the Scottish people with understandable, consistent, relevant and timely information; and lastly, contain the overhead and compliance costs of the procedures.

The Executive has every intention of living up to those aspirations. I hope that the Parliament will seize the opportunity that that presents. I hope that members will help the Executive to take the, sometimes hard, funding decisions that will be necessary and to ensure that the money that we spend delivers the results that we all expect.

The bill deals only with the FIAG recommendations that require legislation. The rest are to be implemented in other ways. Some of them have already been implemented. They have been written into the Parliament's standing orders. The procedures for budget bills, for example, are

based on FIAG's proposals.

A number of other issues will need written agreements between the Parliament and the Executive so that the rights and obligations of both parties are made clear. Such an approach would be more appropriate than producing legislation, and would be used, for example, for the procedures to be followed by the Executive for agreeing the format of accounts. At stage 2 of the debate on this bill, I plan to submit to the Parliament proposals on how the Finance Committee and the Audit Committee might, on behalf of the Parliament, work with the Executive to decide on accounting formats. I will also submit other proposals for agreement on various procedures at that time.

Finally, there are recommendations on which the Parliament will need to legislate by using budget bills. That is partly because the recommendations are inherent in the purpose of the budget bill—the level of Parliamentary control, for example—and partly because the standing orders mean that certain proposals can be only in budget bills. The proposal, for example, that revisions to budget acts might be made in secondary legislation will have to be in budget bills, unless the standing orders are changed while this bill is still before Parliament.

The bill is in two main parts. The first part sets out procedures for authorising the use of Scottish public resources, and the second concentrates on holding to account those who spend our money. Together, both parts provide the framework for sound management of Scotland's finances.

The first principle is that resources can be used only with the approval of Parliament. In other words, the Executive can spend money only if Parliament so authorises. That fundamental principle is at the heart of the relationship between Parliament and the Executive.

The bill rules that cash cannot be spent without the Parliament's approval and enables the Parliament to set limits on the amount of cash that can be spent. As a further control, the bill establishes a rule that ministers may not draw on the Scottish consolidated fund without the written authority of the Auditor General for Scotland.

Having set out the principle that resources cannot be used without the Parliament's consent, however, the bill goes on to consider situations in which the Executive might need to use resources before the Parliament has agreed them.

The first such situation is in the event of Parliament being unable to approve a budget act before the start of the financial year. The bill provides a system which will enable front-line services to continue to receive limited funding until a budget act is agreed.

The second is to meet urgent unforeseen demand. No matter how good our financial planning is, there will be cases where money will need to be spent quickly. The bill provides ministers with a limited spending capability for such occasions. That will not be a charter for ministers to print money, as the bill requires ministers to report to Parliament as soon as they can. We plan to propose a written understanding to ensure that the Parliament hears of any contingency spending promptly, and hears of it first.

Spending bodies in Scotland currently have a range of borrowing powers. In the past, the borrowing of those bodies has been controlled by ministers without any annual parliamentary control. We agree with FIAG's conclusion that such borrowing may be subject to the control of Parliament. The bill puts that principle into practice.

Finally, this part of the bill has a section on the financial arrangements for the Keeper of the Registers of Scotland, which makes provisions for the Keeper of the Registers to operate on a trading fund basis.

As I have said, the second main part of the bill deals with audit and with holding the spenders of money to account. It puts in place arrangements for the establishment of a unified public audit service staffed by personnel who currently work for the National Audit Office and the Accounts Commission. That organisation, called Audit Scotland, will provide all the functions needed for the Auditor General for Scotland and the Accounts Commission to carry out their statutory duties. While the Auditor General and the Accounts Commission will have policy responsibility for their own areas and will decide who should carry out an audit, Audit Scotland will carry out on their behalf all the actions needed to deliver that audit.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C709005", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26906, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 605.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 605.0, "ID": 26906, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 621.0, "ContributionID": 709005, "EditedText": "Overall expenditure totals will remain a matter for this Parliament. However, it is only right and proper for the individual auditing of individual councils to remain the responsibility of the Accounts Commission. Health bodies have no democratic mandate and for this reason, we propose that in future, their audit will be a matter for the Auditor General. I would like to stress the independence of the Auditor General for Scotland. The Executive has absolutely no control or influence over his activities. As the Scotland Act 1998 specifies, the Auditor General for Scotland is also independent of the Parliament. I highlight this point because the bill provides for a Scottish commission for public audit. That body will be required to scrutinise the expenditure proposals for Audit Scotland and arrange for its audit, but the commission will not oversee the work of either the Auditor General or Audit Scotland. In some ways, I see the final principles of the bill as the most important in that they govern the way in which the Parliament will be able to hold the Scottish Administration and other bodies to account. The bill provides for a system of accountable officers. The system is designed to ensure that ministers and office holders such as the Auditor General for Scotland and the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body are accountable for the way in which they use the resources which they are authorised by the Parliament to spend. In particular, the system places a duty on certain nominated senior officials to seek written instructions from the relevant minister or office holder if they feel that they are being asked to do something which is improper, irregular or which would represent poor value for money. They must then report those instructions to the Auditor General. A similar system exists in Westminster, but there, the idea that officials should take this kind of action exists only as a convention. We propose that that requirement is placed firmly in statute, thus giving it a robust and secure foundation. The bill makes provision for audit and for value- for-money investigations. It grants the Auditor General and those working on his behalf statutory rights of access when carrying out audits or VFM studies. It also rationalises the audit arrangements for all those spending bodies that are within the competence of the Parliament. I hope that we will have unanimous support in this chamber for the principle of our Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill. With that endorsement of our basic principles, the Audit Committee, the Finance Committee and other committees must then ensure that the detail meets the ideals that we have set out to achieve. I hope that their scrutiny will be vigorous; it will come from members of all parties represented here, and will produce an act before Christmas that will allow us to progress with a budget that is based on our own procedures, agreed here in Edinburgh, and on which our people can rely. We must all remember, as I can assure members that I do, that the money which we as elected politicians spend comes from the hardworking families and businesses of Scotland. We must remember, every year in our budget decisions and every day as we spend the money that is allocated to the people's priorities, that it is their money. We hold it for them, we spend it on their priorities, and we must explain clearly and openly where it has gone. That is the fundamental duty of elected politicians and public officials the world over. Here in Scotland, I want a first-class system to assure those whom we represent that they will always come first. I move,That the Parliament agrees to the general principles of the Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill.", "EditedTextHTML": "Overall expenditure totals will remain a matter for this Parliament. However, it is only right and proper for the individual auditing of individual councils to remain the responsibility of the Accounts Commission. Health bodies have no democratic mandate and for this reason, we propose that in future, their audit will be a matter for the Auditor General.

I would like to stress the independence of the Auditor General for Scotland. The Executive has absolutely no control or influence over his activities. As the Scotland Act 1998 specifies, the Auditor General for Scotland is also independent of the Parliament. I highlight this point because the bill provides for a Scottish commission for public audit. That body will be required to scrutinise the expenditure proposals for Audit Scotland and arrange for its audit, but the commission will not oversee the work of either the Auditor General or Audit Scotland.

In some ways, I see the final principles of the bill as the most important in that they govern the way in which the Parliament will be able to hold the Scottish Administration and other bodies to account. The bill provides for a system of accountable officers. The system is designed to ensure that ministers and office holders such as the Auditor General for Scotland and the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body are accountable for the way in which they use the resources which they are authorised by the Parliament to spend.

In particular, the system places a duty on certain nominated senior officials to seek written instructions from the relevant minister or office holder if they feel that they are being asked to do something which is improper, irregular or which would represent poor value for money. They must then report those instructions to the Auditor General. A similar system exists in Westminster, but there, the idea that officials should take this kind of action exists only as a convention. We propose that that requirement is placed firmly in statute, thus giving it a robust and secure foundation.

The bill makes provision for audit and for value- for-money investigations. It grants the Auditor General and those working on his behalf statutory rights of access when carrying out audits or VFM studies. It also rationalises the audit arrangements for all those spending bodies that are within the competence of the Parliament.

I hope that we will have unanimous support in this chamber for the principle of our Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill. With that endorsement of our basic principles, the Audit Committee, the Finance Committee and other committees must then ensure that the detail meets the ideals that we have set out to achieve. I hope that their scrutiny will be vigorous; it will come from members of all parties represented here, and will produce an act before Christmas that will allow us to progress with a budget that is based on our own procedures, agreed here in Edinburgh, and on which our people can rely.

We must all remember, as I can assure members that I do, that the money which we as elected politicians spend comes from the hardworking families and businesses of Scotland. We must remember, every year in our budget decisions and every day as we spend the money that is allocated to the people's priorities, that it is their money. We hold it for them, we spend it on their priorities, and we must explain clearly and openly where it has gone. That is the fundamental duty of elected politicians and public officials the world over. Here in Scotland, I want a first-class system to assure those whom we represent that they will always come first.

I move,

That the Parliament agrees to the general principles of the Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C709006", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26906, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 605.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 605.0, "ID": 26906, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 624.0, "ContributionID": 709006, "EditedText": "The purpose of a stage 1 debate in this new system is, as Mr McConnell has pointed out, to debate the general principles of a bill. In that light, congratulate Mr McConnell and his excellent advisers in the finance divisions of the Scottish Executive for bringing the bill to Parliament in what I can only describe as jig time. Before Mr McConnell gets too flushed with success, I join him in thanking the financial issues advisory group of the consultative steering group. He will agree that it is through FIAG's endeavours that the bill has been able to go through the Finance Committee and Audit Committee with such speed. There are many issues of detail to be raised, but the broad thrust of the bill and what it drives at is largely non-contentious and is to be welcomed. I want at this stage to raise some points of principle. Others will be raised by my colleagues during this debate and, perhaps more important, in later stages of the bill's passage. From the SNP's perspective, the key theme is what the bill misses out, rather than what it includes. The bill's principles do not seem to include the capacity for a reserve. I am concerned at the implications that that has for the prudent management of budgeting and for the prevention of what we have all become used to with public sector budgets—the rushed year-end spending. If the bill does not allow for the capacity for a reserve, the whole process could be undermined. We need that reserve not just for the emergency reasons that the Minister for Finance outlined, but to allow a much more sustainable approach to resource allocation. We know from bitter experience that there is often a rush to spend budgets at the end of the year. That encourages, rather than discourages, waste and institutionalises a public sector culture where departments, authorities and agencies look solely for short-term spending projects. With more substantial capital projects, there is always scope for underspend, when money can be put aside. However, that structure encourages the search for short-termism, which is to be regretted. The Minister for Finance's response to that is resource account budgeting, but I am yet to be convinced that that provides all the answers. On audit, on which many of my colleagues will focus today, I would like the minister to give an assurance that the bill will accommodate the need for cross-departmental and cross-agency auditing by policy area, rather than by delivery area. That would allow us to assess the extent to which the different operatives within Government chase the same objectives and duplicate cost and effort. Every agency, department and authority that spends public money should be subject to potential scrutiny by Audit Scotland and the Parliament's Finance Committee and Audit Committee. As my colleague, John Swinney, said, there are numerous examples in enterprise of projects receiving public funds from a variety of sources using the same measure—jobs created— to justify each separate amount. The Parliament should take an interest in that. However, that point and many others will be raised during the passage of the bill, when we will be able to remedy the structural weaknesses. The most important structural weakness is our situation within the settlement. It is to be regretted that the Scottish Executive is no more than a conduit for finance—the grateful recipient of a hand-down from the Secretary of State for Scotland. If the Executive had more of the normal powers of responsibility enjoyed by any Government, or for that matter, any local authority—the power to build up reserves, to borrow prudently, to focus on the longer term and to exercise effective control over the flow of revenue—rather than having to accept what is fed to it from external sources, the impact on expenditure would be much more healthy and would ensure better quality and more strategically focused spending decisions.", "EditedTextHTML": "The purpose of a stage 1 debate in this new system is, as Mr McConnell has pointed out, to debate the general principles of a bill. In that light, congratulate Mr McConnell and his excellent advisers in the finance divisions of the Scottish Executive for bringing the bill to Parliament in what I can only describe as jig time.

Before Mr McConnell gets too flushed with success, I join him in thanking the financial issues advisory group of the consultative steering group.

He will agree that it is through FIAG's endeavours that the bill has been able to go through the Finance Committee and Audit Committee with such speed. There are many issues of detail to be raised, but the broad thrust of the bill and what it drives at is largely non-contentious and is to be welcomed.

I want at this stage to raise some points of principle. Others will be raised by my colleagues during this debate and, perhaps more important, in later stages of the bill's passage.

From the SNP's perspective, the key theme is what the bill misses out, rather than what it includes. The bill's principles do not seem to include the capacity for a reserve. I am concerned at the implications that that has for the prudent management of budgeting and for the prevention of what we have all become used to with public sector budgets—the rushed year-end spending. If the bill does not allow for the capacity for a reserve, the whole process could be undermined. We need that reserve not just for the emergency reasons that the Minister for Finance outlined, but to allow a much more sustainable approach to resource allocation.

We know from bitter experience that there is often a rush to spend budgets at the end of the year. That encourages, rather than discourages, waste and institutionalises a public sector culture where departments, authorities and agencies look solely for short-term spending projects. With more substantial capital projects, there is always scope for underspend, when money can be put aside. However, that structure encourages the search for short-termism, which is to be regretted. The Minister for Finance's response to that is resource account budgeting, but I am yet to be convinced that that provides all the answers.

On audit, on which many of my colleagues will focus today, I would like the minister to give an assurance that the bill will accommodate the need for cross-departmental and cross-agency auditing by policy area, rather than by delivery area. That would allow us to assess the extent to which the different operatives within Government chase the same objectives and duplicate cost and effort.

Every agency, department and authority that spends public money should be subject to potential scrutiny by Audit Scotland and the Parliament's Finance Committee and Audit Committee. As my colleague, John Swinney, said, there are numerous examples in enterprise of projects receiving public funds from a variety of sources using the same measure—jobs created— to justify each separate amount. The Parliament should take an interest in that. However, that point and many others will be raised during the passage of the bill, when we will be able to remedy the structural weaknesses.

The most important structural weakness is our situation within the settlement. It is to be regretted that the Scottish Executive is no more than a conduit for finance—the grateful recipient of a hand-down from the Secretary of State for Scotland. If the Executive had more of the normal powers of responsibility enjoyed by any Government, or for that matter, any local authority—the power to build up reserves, to borrow prudently, to focus on the longer term and to exercise effective control over the flow of revenue—rather than having to accept what is fed to it from external sources, the impact on expenditure would be much more healthy and would ensure better quality and more strategically focused spending decisions.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C709009", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26906, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 605.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 605.0, "ID": 26906, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Annabel Goldie (West of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 631.0, "ContributionID": 709009, "EditedText": "I endorse much of what Mr Wilson said. This party also welcomes the bill and the general principles that are set out in it. In terms of content, it may be riveting to the point of being dangerously exciting, but none the less it deals with some serious matters. Like Mr Wilson, we congratulate the minister, his team and others who have assisted in producing a very complex bill in a very short time. We may express slight concern about the budget amendments. I think that it is now accepted that the budget will be set out through primary legislation. As a member of the Audit Committee, I am concerned, as is the Conservative group, that amendments should also be made through primary legislation. In his opening remarks, the minister mentioned honesty and transparency and we all applaud that. However, there is a need to ensure that that is effected in reality and that it does not become just a verbal shibboleth. In the interest of flexibility, we accept the concept of ministerial direction on the format of accounts. However, we hope that the courtesy of allowing the Finance Committee to comment on format will be observed. That would be a proper demonstration of transparency. My colleague, Mr Davidson, who is in his sick bed and cannot be with us today, serves on the Finance Committee and has asked me to raise one or two points on his behalf. He had a slight concern that the bill makes no mention of the role of the Finance Committee. I accept that the minister considers that that role will evolve and that he may not wish to make any prescriptive mention of it now. However, it might give some comfort to the chamber if he were to expand a little on how he sees the role of the committee unfolding, because there is no doubt that it is an important committee and one that is singularly relevant to the matters under discussion today. I have been asked to point out—although I do not wish to be polemical—that when the bill was put out for consultation, it went into the public arena before the Finance Committee had an opportunity to view it. In the interests of a more harmonious relationship between the Executive and the committee, perhaps the minister will have regard to that sort of omission in future. There is also a feeling that the budget bill, whenever it appears, ought to be in the province of the Finance Committee and, unless I have failed to read the bill correctly, there does not seem to be any specific provision for that. For example, does the minister intend to allow the Finance Committee to see the draft budget for some predetermination of how matters look, or is it simply to be landed straight into the parliamentary chamber? Mr Wilson alludes to his concerns about audit functions, which I will come to in a moment. However, I have a concern—I have already placed it on record in the Audit Committee—about the position of local authorities. While I understand the constitutional precedent that allows the Accounts Commission to audit local authorities, I think that it is necessary for me to put the following comments on record in the chamber, for the public information of the electorate. We, as a Parliament, are attempting to deal responsibly with the expenditure of very large sums of public money, as the minister said. It seems anomalous that the bill does not provide for the slice of expenditure that goes to local authorities, which currently spend approximately £6.4 billion, to be examined in more detail. I accept the minister's response that the Parliament would have access to the overall figure. However, an overall figure of that magnitude in isolation is not very meaningful. There are serious concerns that—when we talk about expenditure of the size and extent currently seconded to local authorities—the creation of this Parliament affects constitutional precedent. Finally, Mr Wilson described the Scottish Executive as a conduit—I pronounce the word slightly differently, but that is a small matter. Mr Wilson was making an articulate and skilful attempt to justify an agenda of independence. Not surprisingly, he will find little support for that from these benches.", "EditedTextHTML": "I endorse much of what Mr Wilson said. This party also welcomes the bill and the general principles that are set out in it. In terms of content, it may be riveting to the point of being dangerously exciting, but none the less it deals with some serious matters. Like Mr Wilson, we congratulate the minister, his team and others who have assisted in producing a very complex bill in a very short time.

We may express slight concern about the budget amendments. I think that it is now accepted that the budget will be set out through primary legislation. As a member of the Audit Committee, I am concerned, as is the Conservative group, that amendments should also be made through primary legislation. In his opening remarks, the minister mentioned honesty and transparency and we all applaud that. However, there is a need to ensure that that is effected in reality and that it does not become just a verbal shibboleth.

In the interest of flexibility, we accept the concept of ministerial direction on the format of accounts. However, we hope that the courtesy of allowing the Finance Committee to comment on format will be observed. That would be a proper demonstration of transparency.

My colleague, Mr Davidson, who is in his sick bed and cannot be with us today, serves on the Finance Committee and has asked me to raise one or two points on his behalf. He had a slight concern that the bill makes no mention of the role of the Finance Committee. I accept that the minister considers that that role will evolve and that he may not wish to make any prescriptive mention of it now. However, it might give some comfort to the chamber if he were to expand a little on how he sees the role of the committee unfolding, because there is no doubt that it is an important committee and one that is singularly relevant to the matters under discussion today.

I have been asked to point out—although I do not wish to be polemical—that when the bill was put out for consultation, it went into the public arena before the Finance Committee had an opportunity to view it. In the interests of a more harmonious relationship between the Executive and the committee, perhaps the minister will have regard to that sort of omission in future.

There is also a feeling that the budget bill, whenever it appears, ought to be in the province of the Finance Committee and, unless I have failed to read the bill correctly, there does not seem to be any specific provision for that. For example, does the minister intend to allow the Finance Committee to see the draft budget for some predetermination of how matters look, or is it simply to be landed straight into the parliamentary chamber?

Mr Wilson alludes to his concerns about audit functions, which I will come to in a moment. However, I have a concern—I have already placed it on record in the Audit Committee—about the position of local authorities. While I understand the constitutional precedent that allows the Accounts Commission to audit local authorities, I think that it is necessary for me to put the following comments on record in the chamber, for the public information of the electorate.

We, as a Parliament, are attempting to deal responsibly with the expenditure of very large sums of public money, as the minister said. It seems anomalous that the bill does not provide for the slice of expenditure that goes to local authorities, which currently spend approximately £6.4 billion, to be examined in more detail. I accept the minister's response that the Parliament

would have access to the overall figure. However, an overall figure of that magnitude in isolation is not very meaningful. There are serious concerns that—when we talk about expenditure of the size and extent currently seconded to local authorities—the creation of this Parliament affects constitutional precedent.

Finally, Mr Wilson described the Scottish Executive as a conduit—I pronounce the word slightly differently, but that is a small matter. Mr Wilson was making an articulate and skilful attempt to justify an agenda of independence. Not surprisingly, he will find little support for that from these benches.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C709016", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26906, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 605.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 605.0, "ID": 26906, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Goldie rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 646.0, "ContributionID": 709016, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C709017", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26906, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 605.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 605.0, "ID": 26906, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 648.0, "ContributionID": 709017, "EditedText": "I will gladly give way to Miss Goldie in a moment. I know that her mental processes are rather slow—no doubt she wants to come back to some of the points that I made earlier. The crucial point is that the Scottish Parliament is superior to Westminster in terms of the process of budget scrutiny that we are setting out. In view of Mr Salmond's question to the First Minister today, I hope that when the First Minister next meets the Chancellor of the Exchequer he will bring this model of budget scrutiny to his attention.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will gladly give way to Miss Goldie in a moment. I know that her mental processes are rather slow—no doubt she wants to come back to some of the points that I made earlier.

The crucial point is that the Scottish Parliament is superior to Westminster in terms of the process of budget scrutiny that we are setting out. In view of Mr Salmond's question to the First Minister

today, I hope that when the First Minister next meets the Chancellor of the Exchequer he will bring this model of budget scrutiny to his attention.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C709021", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26906, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 605.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 605.0, "ID": 26906, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 656.0, "ContributionID": 709021, "EditedText": "It would help if you were to get to the point, Mr Raffan.", "EditedTextHTML": "It would help if you were to get to the point, Mr Raffan.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2117E79P104C709033", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26906, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 605.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 605.0, "ID": 26906, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macdonald, Lewis", "ID": 2117, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lewis Macdonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Lewis Macdonald: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 685.0, "ContributionID": 709033, "EditedText": "In the bill, we are creating a distinctive Scottish structure for the Scottish Parliament. Its relationship with Westminster will continue to evolve. I recognise the point that Andrew Wilson has just made—which he also made in his speech—but we are engaged in modernising structures. There is a commitment throughout the chamber to achieving value for public money. This is an important step in that direction.", "EditedTextHTML": "In the bill, we are creating a distinctive Scottish structure for the Scottish Parliament. Its relationship with Westminster will continue to evolve. I recognise the point that Andrew Wilson has just made—which he also made in his speech—but we are engaged in modernising structures. There is a commitment throughout the chamber to achieving value for public money. This is an important step in that direction.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C709022", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26906, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 605.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 605.0, "ID": 26906, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 658.0, "ContributionID": 709022, "EditedText": "We ought to get Relate involved in the marriage guidance process between the Scottish Conservatives and the Scottish National party, as their unholy alliance seems to have broken today. Let me make some important points about the bill and the budgetary process. What is crucial is that—as the minister said—the bill goes to the heart of the relationship between the Parliament and the Executive. I pay tribute to the FIAG report and to all those who worked on it. It has set out the framework for the parliamentary scrutiny of the allocation of public money so that we can secure best value from our financial resources. The minister has said that the Executive wants a world-class financial management system, that it wants the Parliament to be constructive and that the Executive wants its decisions to be open and transparent. I can almost hear Louis Armstrong sing, \"Oh what a wonderful world\". Seriously, however, those are desirable objectives. Of course there will, more often than not, be tensions between Parliament—mainly through the Finance Committee and the Audit Committee—and the Executive. There will be differences and conflicts but—crucially—those can be worked out within the framework that has been laid down. I would like to raise two points of detail. The first point has been raised by members of the Finance Committee and the Audit Committee. Making the process work will depend on members having access to very detailed information. Mr Swinney admirably made that point in the Finance Committee. We must have access to the detailed information—in its most accessible form—that underpins \"Serving Scotland's Needs\" if we are to scrutinise the budget effectively. My second point relates to the written understandings, for which we are waiting, between the Executive and the Parliament. I believe that a draft of those will be available to the Parliament prior to the stage 2 debate of this bill. They may affect stages 1 and 2 of the budgetary process. Stage 1 will happen in the spring when strategic priorities will be discussed. Detailed discussion of the draft budget will happen during stage 2 in the autumn. The onus is on the Finance Committee, as the lead committee, to oversee the process. We must set up an appropriate and effective system to ensure that the subject committees can give detailed input to stage 1 of the budgetary process. That is crucial and we have not yet looked at how we are going to achieve it. We are having, for obvious reasons, a curtailed process this year. We came into existence only in May and took over our powers at the beginning of July. However, we must set out the detailed process by which the Finance Committee and the subject committees can consult in that important preliminary, spring phase, during which we will discuss the strategic priorities of future budgets.", "EditedTextHTML": "We ought to get Relate involved in the marriage guidance process between the Scottish Conservatives and the Scottish National party, as their unholy alliance seems to have broken today.

Let me make some important points about the bill and the budgetary process. What is crucial is that—as the minister said—the bill goes to the heart of the relationship between the Parliament and the Executive.

I pay tribute to the FIAG report and to all those who worked on it. It has set out the framework for the parliamentary scrutiny of the allocation of public money so that we can secure best value from our financial resources.

The minister has said that the Executive wants a world-class financial management system, that it wants the Parliament to be constructive and that the Executive wants its decisions to be open and transparent. I can almost hear Louis Armstrong sing, \"Oh what a wonderful world\".

Seriously, however, those are desirable objectives. Of course there will, more often than not, be tensions between Parliament—mainly through the Finance Committee and the Audit Committee—and the Executive. There will be differences and conflicts but—crucially—those can be worked out within the framework that has been laid down.

I would like to raise two points of detail. The first point has been raised by members of the Finance Committee and the Audit Committee. Making the process work will depend on members having access to very detailed information. Mr Swinney admirably made that point in the Finance

Committee. We must have access to the detailed information—in its most accessible form—that underpins \"Serving Scotland's Needs\" if we are to scrutinise the budget effectively.

My second point relates to the written understandings, for which we are waiting, between the Executive and the Parliament. I believe that a draft of those will be available to the Parliament prior to the stage 2 debate of this bill. They may affect stages 1 and 2 of the budgetary process. Stage 1 will happen in the spring when strategic priorities will be discussed. Detailed discussion of the draft budget will happen during stage 2 in the autumn.

The onus is on the Finance Committee, as the lead committee, to oversee the process. We must set up an appropriate and effective system to ensure that the subject committees can give detailed input to stage 1 of the budgetary process. That is crucial and we have not yet looked at how we are going to achieve it.

We are having, for obvious reasons, a curtailed process this year. We came into existence only in May and took over our powers at the beginning of July. However, we must set out the detailed process by which the Finance Committee and the subject committees can consult in that important preliminary, spring phase, during which we will discuss the strategic priorities of future budgets.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2142E142P230C709025", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26906, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 605.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 605.0, "ID": 26906, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Watson, Mike", "ID": 2142, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Cathcart" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Watson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mike Watson (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 667.0, "ContributionID": 709025, "EditedText": "I shall preface my remarks with a comment that, to some extent, reflects what Keith Raffan said. As we begin the development of the first Government legislation in the Parliament, we might reflect on how our deliberations are covered in the media and the importance that they are given there. We do not have to cast our minds back very far to remember some of the appalling coverage of the Parliament and of some members before the summer recess. When some of us challenged journalists at that time, they said that they were reporting in that way because there was nothing of substance to cover—give us something to cover and we will be more serious, they said. This is a serious matter, and how full is the press gallery? I give credit to those who stayed, but I make no apology for saying that it is disgraceful that when there is serious discussion, there is no reporting of it. I highlight the contribution of my colleague Karen Whitefield, who was the butt of unfair criticism some months ago and who made an excellent, well-researched speech showing wide knowledge of the subject. Who will report that? I hope that some of those who denigrated her will eat humble pie on the basis of what they should have heard this afternoon, and I hope that they will bother to read the Official Report. It is disheartening for those of us involved in the Finance Committee and the Audit Committee to see that the legislation is not getting the coverage that it deserves. It is the first bill for us. The Finance Committee and the Audit Committee, in a joint meeting, were the first to take evidence from a Scottish Executive minister when the outline of the bill was discussed in June. Many of the comments made by the committees have been incorporated in the bill. It is a sign of the broad measure of agreement that even Andrew Wilson in his comments was not greatly critical of the bill; he talked about what is not in it rather than what is. Of those issues, the relationship between the Scotland Office and the Parliament will be discussed in future, I am sure, and raising revenue is more to do with an amendment of the Scotland Act 1998, or future legislation. The broad agreement on the bill has also been shown by Andrew Welsh's comments on behalf of the Audit Committee. I do not find that surprising, because we are putting in place one of the building blocks of the way in which the Parliament will operate. When the bill becomes law in a few weeks' time, it will affect for years the way in which the Parliament looks at its budgets and looks back on the effects of spending through the Audit Committee. In the Finance Committee, we are pleased with the relationship that we have established with the Minister for Finance and we have made clear to him the need for openness, transparency and accountability. That message has been taken on board. I do not intend to go into the details of the bill now as that is for stage 2, but it is important to re- emphasise a point that Richard Simpson made earlier, that this is about not just annual budgeting, as there will be an annual budget bill and revisions, but forward planning. It is likely that we will have the budget draft for the following year and perhaps the year after that as well. We hope so, as that would not only allow the Scottish Executive to plan ahead but enable the Parliament to have a fairly clear idea of the thinking of the Executive and the coalition, or whichever party or parties were in power at the time. That is also important for the way in which the Parliament is viewed by the public. These are detailed and complex matters, but that does not mean that we cannot get it across to people that we are doing a serious job on their behalf. The way in which the money comes to the Parliament and how it is dealt with are important for the messages that are sent out about how the Parliament is operating and hence its reputation. I want to say just a little bit about—", "EditedTextHTML": "I shall preface my remarks with a comment that, to some extent, reflects what Keith Raffan said. As we begin the development of the first Government legislation in the Parliament, we might reflect on how our deliberations are covered in the media and the importance that they are given there. We do not have to cast our minds back very far to remember some of the appalling coverage of the Parliament and of some members before the summer recess.

When some of us challenged journalists at that time, they said that they were reporting in that way because there was nothing of substance to cover—give us something to cover and we will be more serious, they said. This is a serious matter, and how full is the press gallery? I give credit to those who stayed, but I make no apology for saying that it is disgraceful that when there is serious discussion, there is no reporting of it.

I highlight the contribution of my colleague Karen Whitefield, who was the butt of unfair criticism some months ago and who made an excellent, well-researched speech showing wide knowledge of the subject. Who will report that? I hope that some of those who denigrated her will eat humble pie on the basis of what they should have heard this afternoon, and I hope that they will bother to read the Official Report.

It is disheartening for those of us involved in the Finance Committee and the Audit Committee to see that the legislation is not getting the coverage that it deserves. It is the first bill for us. The Finance Committee and the Audit Committee, in a joint meeting, were the first to take evidence from a Scottish Executive minister when the outline of the bill was discussed in June. Many of the comments made by the committees have been incorporated in the bill.

It is a sign of the broad measure of agreement that even Andrew Wilson in his comments was not greatly critical of the bill; he talked about what is not in it rather than what is. Of those issues, the relationship between the Scotland Office and the Parliament will be discussed in future, I am sure, and raising revenue is more to do with an amendment of the Scotland Act 1998, or future legislation.

The broad agreement on the bill has also been shown by Andrew Welsh's comments on behalf of the Audit Committee. I do not find that surprising, because we are putting in place one of the building blocks of the way in which the Parliament will operate. When the bill becomes law in a few weeks' time, it will affect for years the way in which the Parliament looks at its budgets and looks back on the effects of spending through the Audit Committee.

In the Finance Committee, we are pleased with the relationship that we have established with the Minister for Finance and we have made clear to him the need for openness, transparency and accountability. That message has been taken on board.

I do not intend to go into the details of the bill now as that is for stage 2, but it is important to re- emphasise a point that Richard Simpson made earlier, that this is about not just annual budgeting, as there will be an annual budget bill and revisions, but forward planning. It is likely that we will have the budget draft for the following year and perhaps the year after that as well. We hope

so, as that would not only allow the Scottish Executive to plan ahead but enable the Parliament to have a fairly clear idea of the thinking of the Executive and the coalition, or whichever party or parties were in power at the time.

That is also important for the way in which the Parliament is viewed by the public. These are detailed and complex matters, but that does not mean that we cannot get it across to people that we are doing a serious job on their behalf. The way in which the money comes to the Parliament and how it is dealt with are important for the messages that are sent out about how the Parliament is operating and hence its reputation.

I want to say just a little bit about—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C709026", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26906, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 605.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 605.0, "ID": 26906, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 669.0, "ContributionID": 709026, "EditedText": "Just a very little bit.", "EditedTextHTML": "Just a very little bit.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1882E175P456C709036", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26906, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 605.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 605.0, "ID": 26906, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ingram, Adam", "ID": 1882, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Adam Ingram", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Adam Ingram (South of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 694.0, "ContributionID": 709036, "EditedText": "What concerns me about the bill is not what is in it but what is not. In terms of legislating for transparency in a devolved context, the bill is adequate. In the wider context of Scotland's finances, however, much is missing. I want to examine the most basic and fundamental flaw in the Parliament's financial system. The Scottish Parliament is expected to take responsibility for the expenditure aspect of the budget, but London holds the control of the revenue that the Parliament receives. In other words, the Parliament is responsible for money out but not for money in. That is a chronic defect. The SNP has always argued that money that is raised in Scotland should be spent in Scotland and that the Scottish Parliament should have responsibility for the debit and the credit side of the accounts. Let us look at the relevant parallels with local government. It is beyond dispute that local authority budgets have plunged near crisis over the past few years. From those involved in managing that crisis, it is clear that the problem is caused not only by central Government cuts, but by the fact that local authorities have control over a diminishing amount of their income and are reliant on central Government for around 85 per cent of the money that they spend. Councils are meant to be financially responsible, but cannot truly be so because they are not responsible for raising their own revenue. That pocket-money principle has been acknowledged as flawed. It does not put elected representatives in councils in control of budgets. It simply thwarts their attempts to provide services and leaves councils carrying the can for being unable to deliver the expectations of the electorate. In the same way that Scotland's councils were given their cash handout from London via the benevolent—or not so benevolent—Secretary of State for Scotland, the Parliament is dependent on a cash handout from London, although not before it is top-sliced on its way here by the Secretary of State for Scotland. In the same way, the pocket-money principle cannot be applied successfully in the Parliament. How can we undertake to meet the expectations of our nation if it is London that dictates the finance that is available to meet those expectations? I can think of no better way to illustrate that point than to examine Scotland's ability to argue for European funds. We are dependent on the Secretary of State for Scotland going forward, cap in hand, pleading for the UK Government to take Scotland's case to Europe. Already the Government public relations machine has kicked into action, ready to talk up the crumbs swept from the table in Scotland's direction and preparing us for the worst, should John Reid fail on Scotland's behalf. The Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill is—commendably—designed to ensure transparency and accountability in decisions made on the use of public money. That is welcome. It will not be possible for the Executive to take financial decisions behind closed doors, away from the scrutiny of members and the public. I am pleased that the bill makes financial practice in the Parliament accountable. However, I am deeply disappointed that it is an in loco parentis measure, to ensure that a devolved Parliament spends its pocket money wisely. I look forward to the day when the Parliament grows up and is both breadwinner and the holder of the purse strings, so that we can meet and pay for Scotland's aspirations.", "EditedTextHTML": "What concerns me about the bill is not what is in it but what is not. In terms of legislating for transparency in a devolved context, the bill is adequate. In the wider context of Scotland's finances, however, much is missing.

I want to examine the most basic and fundamental flaw in the Parliament's financial system. The Scottish Parliament is expected to take responsibility for the expenditure aspect of the budget, but London holds the control of the revenue that the Parliament receives. In other words, the Parliament is responsible for money out but not for money in. That is a chronic defect. The SNP has always argued that money that is raised in Scotland should be spent in Scotland and that the Scottish Parliament should have responsibility for the debit and the credit side of the accounts.

Let us look at the relevant parallels with local government. It is beyond dispute that local authority budgets have plunged near crisis over the past few years. From those involved in managing that crisis, it is clear that the problem is caused not only by central Government cuts, but by the fact that local authorities have control over a diminishing amount of their income and are reliant on central Government for around 85 per cent of the money that they spend.

Councils are meant to be financially responsible, but cannot truly be so because they are not responsible for raising their own revenue. That pocket-money principle has been acknowledged as flawed. It does not put elected representatives in councils in control of budgets. It simply thwarts their attempts to provide services and leaves councils carrying the can for being unable to deliver the expectations of the electorate. In the same way that Scotland's councils were given their cash handout from London via the benevolent—or not so benevolent—Secretary of State for Scotland, the Parliament is dependent on a cash handout from London, although not before it is top-sliced on its way here by the Secretary of State for Scotland.

In the same way, the pocket-money principle cannot be applied successfully in the Parliament. How can we undertake to meet the expectations of our nation if it is London that dictates the finance that is available to meet those expectations? I can think of no better way to illustrate that point than to examine Scotland's ability to argue for European funds. We are dependent on the Secretary of State for Scotland going forward, cap in hand, pleading for the UK Government to take Scotland's case to Europe. Already the Government public relations machine has kicked into action, ready to talk up the crumbs swept from the table in Scotland's direction and preparing us for the worst, should John Reid fail on Scotland's behalf.

The Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill is—commendably—designed to ensure transparency and accountability in decisions made on the use of public money. That is welcome. It will not be possible for the Executive to take financial decisions behind closed doors, away from the scrutiny of members and the public.

I am pleased that the bill makes financial practice in the Parliament accountable. However, I am deeply disappointed that it is an in loco parentis measure, to ensure that a devolved Parliament spends its pocket money wisely. I look forward to the day when the Parliament grows up and is both breadwinner and the holder of the

purse strings, so that we can meet and pay for Scotland's aspirations.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5764809+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709037", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26906, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 605.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 605.0, "ID": 26906, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 696.0, "ContributionID": 709037, "EditedText": "I call Dr Richard Simpson, after whom—if they keep their remarks to three minutes each—there will be time for Alex Neil and Cathie Craigie.", "EditedTextHTML": "I call Dr Richard Simpson, after whom—if they keep their remarks to three minutes each—there will be time for Alex Neil and Cathie Craigie.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5764809+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C709038", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26906, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 605.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 605.0, "ID": 26906, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Richard Simpson (Ochil) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 699.0, "ContributionID": 709038, "EditedText": "I will try to be brief.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will try to be brief.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5764809+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709039", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26906, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 605.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 605.0, "ID": 26906, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 701.0, "ContributionID": 709039, "EditedText": "You have four minutes.", "EditedTextHTML": "You have four minutes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5764809+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C709040", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26906, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 605.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 605.0, "ID": 26906, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Simpson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 703.0, "ContributionID": 709040, "EditedText": "I will cut out all the major welcoming bits that everybody else mentioned. One thing that I want to welcome is the new arrangements for health boards and trusts. That change, which will allow greater democratic scrutiny, is of considerable importance and I am pleased that it is occurring. I share Mr Raffan's concerns about access to the figures at one level below the global figures that were presented in the initial considerations. I hope that we will address that in the stage 2 consideration. That is vital if we are to appreciate the detail of what is going on and hold the Executive to account in the way that the new arrangements will allow. The combination of that and the early input of the subject committees to the budget process is vital. Beyond that, we must get the process correct, to allow input into the subject committees by experts and the public. I take the overall strategy one stage beyond what Mr Raffan was suggesting. The process provides what our colleagues in the Scottish National party seem to be calling for—that caught the attention of SNP members. It is now the most democratically accountable and scrutinised expenditure system—a model of democracy. We should deal with that and ensure that it works well, before we move on to other forms of examining income—or variations on income—that might emerge at some point. The process is not static. Within a Scotland that is not independent, it is perfectly possible for that process to move forward gradually. I hope that the general terms of the process that we are setting up today will be ones that we are proud of in a year's time. I will refer again to Robert Black's excellent essay, \"Holding to Account\". The cross-cutting nature of budgeting will be important, but I am not certain that we will get the scrutiny of it correct. I hope that we can consider that at stage 2, as Government departments will have pooled budgets and there will be joint budgets for public bodies. Robert Black has quite rightly drawn attention to the fact that we need to be careful about how such budgets are held to account. I am giving notice of a matter that I intend to raise at stage 2.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will cut out all the major welcoming bits that everybody else mentioned. One thing that I want to welcome is the new arrangements for health boards and trusts. That change, which will allow greater democratic scrutiny, is of considerable importance and I am pleased that it is occurring.

I share Mr Raffan's concerns about access to the figures at one level below the global figures that were presented in the initial considerations. I hope that we will address that in the stage 2 consideration. That is vital if we are to appreciate the detail of what is going on and hold the Executive to account in the way that the new arrangements will allow. The combination of that and the early input of the subject committees to the budget process is vital.

Beyond that, we must get the process correct, to allow input into the subject committees by experts and the public. I take the overall strategy one stage beyond what Mr Raffan was suggesting. The process provides what our colleagues in the Scottish National party seem to be calling for—that caught the attention of SNP members. It is now the most democratically accountable and scrutinised expenditure system—a model of democracy. We should deal with that and ensure that it works well, before we move on to other forms of examining income—or variations on income—that might emerge at some point.

The process is not static. Within a Scotland that is not independent, it is perfectly possible for that process to move forward gradually. I hope that the general terms of the process that we are setting up today will be ones that we are proud of in a year's time.

I will refer again to Robert Black's excellent essay, \"Holding to Account\". The cross-cutting nature of budgeting will be important, but I am not certain that we will get the scrutiny of it correct. I hope that we can consider that at stage 2, as Government departments will have pooled budgets and there will be joint budgets for public bodies. Robert Black has quite rightly drawn attention to the fact that we need to be careful about how such budgets are held to account. I am giving notice of a matter that I intend to raise at stage 2.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5764809+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C709041", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26906, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 605.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 605.0, "ID": 26906, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 706.0, "ContributionID": 709041, "EditedText": "I thank the Deputy Presiding Officer for including me in the list of speakers. I want to confine myself to a number of suggestions to improve the bill, as the nationalists' points have already been put adequately by my colleagues. First, I wish to build on John Swinney's point about local enterprise companies. I realise the minister's difficulty, as they are technically and legally private limited companies but spend something like £370 million of public money a year. Given that the total amount that this Parliament manages is only £15 billion, £370 million is a large chunk of public money not to be covered properly by the bill. I ask the minister to consider that again. There may have to be a change in status of local enterprise companies to wholly owned subsidiaries of Scottish Enterprise, but there is a case for doing that anyway. Secondly, I welcome the principle of resource— and not just cash—accounting. We are all familiar with what happens in the last three months of the year: new road works start and a massive number of public works take place so that people can spend their budgets before the end of the year. The quicker we move to a better system of accrual resource funding, the better; that should reduce the problem somewhat and let us get better value for public money. The third issue that I wish to raise is about the Accounts Commission for Scotland. Last year, the Accounts Commission was asked to investigate East Ayrshire Council's direct labour organisation disaster—as it was commonly known. However, the Accounts Commission is also the auditor for East Ayrshire Council. There is a potential conflict of interest in the Accounts Commission acting as the auditor and, when things go wrong during the financial year, as the independent investigator. The bill should provide, in relation to local authorities in particular, but also to other public bodies, that one body cannot be both judge and jury. My fourth point relates to the act that set up this Parliament rather than this bill. The bill covers the borrowing powers of public agencies other than the Scottish Executive and the Scottish Parliament, which have no borrowing powers. I suggest that the minister should take up that issue with his counterpart in the UK Government as it is a serious deficiency in the financial management of the Executive and the Parliament. My final point—I will set a personal record by finishing within my three minutes—is on transparency for the cumulative, year-on-year effects of changes to the Barnett formula. Again, that is strictly not within the scope of the bill, but in the spirit of freedom of information and full access to statistical as well as other types of information, it would be extremely helpful if the minister would publish an annual assessment of the impact of changes to the Barnett formula. hope that the minister will consider those suggestions in the spirit in which they are made. Of course, when we become independent, we will make them all even better.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the Deputy Presiding Officer for including me in the list of speakers. I want to confine myself to a number of suggestions to improve the bill, as the nationalists' points have already been put adequately by my colleagues.

First, I wish to build on John Swinney's point about local enterprise companies. I realise the minister's difficulty, as they are technically and legally private limited companies but spend something like £370 million of public money a year. Given that the total amount that this Parliament manages is only £15 billion, £370 million is a large chunk of public money not to be covered properly by the bill. I ask the minister to consider that again. There may have to be a change in status of local enterprise companies to wholly owned subsidiaries of Scottish Enterprise, but there is a case for doing that anyway.

Secondly, I welcome the principle of resource— and not just cash—accounting. We are all familiar with what happens in the last three months of the year: new road works start and a massive number of public works take place so that people can spend their budgets before the end of the year. The quicker we move to a better system of accrual resource funding, the better; that should reduce the problem somewhat and let us get better value for public money.

The third issue that I wish to raise is about the Accounts Commission for Scotland. Last year, the Accounts Commission was asked to investigate East Ayrshire Council's direct labour organisation disaster—as it was commonly known. However, the Accounts Commission is also the auditor for East Ayrshire Council. There is a potential conflict of interest in the Accounts Commission acting as the auditor and, when things go wrong during the financial year, as the independent investigator. The bill should provide, in relation to local authorities in particular, but also to other public bodies, that one body cannot be both judge and jury.

My fourth point relates to the act that set up this Parliament rather than this bill. The bill covers the borrowing powers of public agencies other than the Scottish Executive and the Scottish Parliament, which have no borrowing powers. I suggest that the minister should take up that issue with his counterpart in the UK Government as it is a serious deficiency in the financial management of the Executive and the Parliament.

My final point—I will set a personal record by finishing within my three minutes—is on

transparency for the cumulative, year-on-year effects of changes to the Barnett formula. Again, that is strictly not within the scope of the bill, but in the spirit of freedom of information and full access to statistical as well as other types of information, it would be extremely helpful if the minister would publish an annual assessment of the impact of changes to the Barnett formula. hope that the minister will consider those suggestions in the spirit in which they are made. Of course, when we become independent, we will make them all even better.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5764809+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1751E163P286C709043", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26906, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 605.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 605.0, "ID": 26906, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Craigie, Cathie", "ID": 1751, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Cumbernauld and Kilsyth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Cathie Craigie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Cathie Craigie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 711.0, "ContributionID": 709043, "EditedText": "I think that Alex Neil's speech went over that time—he did not see the signals to finish. Jack McConnell talked about his long campaign to establish a Scottish Parliament—it was a long hard fight. It is an honour to be involved in the debate that establishes the financial framework for the first Parliament. I want to congratulate him and his team, as well as the members of the financial issues advisory group, on all the work that they have done. I thank everyone who was involved in that work. Participation and consultation with the people of Scotland is at the heart of the Parliament and should be the foundation on which we build all our legislative proposals. The bill has been prepared following wide consultation—before and since the election—with experts and practitioners in public finance and accountancy. They have embraced the consultation process and given their support to the principles of the bill as a mechanism to ensure public accountability. Both the Finance Committee and the Audit Committee are satisfied that there has been adequate consultation on the bill. We are pleased about that. The minister has expressed his desire for the bill to be subjected to detailed scrutiny by all members of the relevant committees. I welcome those comments and can assure him that, as a Labour member of the Audit Committee, I will hold him to them and will play my full part in examining the details of the bill and comparing them with the principles that we have heard about today. We promised the people of Scotland that the Parliament would bring power closer to the people. I believe that the approach in the bill is right and that we should leave control over local authority audits to the Accounts Commission. If the bill contained provisions to alter that, to draw control closer to the centre, we would send the wrong message to our democratically elected councils. In recent weeks I have been pleased to take part in the process of appointing the Auditor General for Scotland. That is a public position, independent of the Executive, with a clear remit to scrutinise public finance and to ensure that the money of the people of Scotland is properly spent. That is a huge step forward, both for our country and for our system of government. The principle behind that appointment must be followed through into the auditing of large and small public organisations; it must be carried through into the budget decisions of the Parliament and the daily expenditure by the Scottish Executive on our behalf. I believe that the Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill puts the principles of transparent and open politics into practice. I am sure that MSPs will give the motion their enthusiastic support. I am sure that we will thoroughly scrutinise the bill so that it will create a sound and secure framework for financial control in Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "I think that Alex Neil's speech went over that time—he did not see the signals to finish.

Jack McConnell talked about his long campaign to establish a Scottish Parliament—it was a long hard fight. It is an honour to be involved in the debate that establishes the financial framework for the first Parliament. I want to congratulate him and his team, as well as the members of the financial issues advisory group, on all the work that they have done. I thank everyone who was involved in that work.

Participation and consultation with the people of Scotland is at the heart of the Parliament and should be the foundation on which we build all our legislative proposals. The bill has been prepared following wide consultation—before and since the election—with experts and practitioners in public finance and accountancy. They have embraced the consultation process and given their support to the principles of the bill as a mechanism to ensure public accountability. Both the Finance Committee and the Audit Committee are satisfied that there has been adequate consultation on the bill. We are pleased about that.

The minister has expressed his desire for the bill to be subjected to detailed scrutiny by all members of the relevant committees. I welcome those comments and can assure him that, as a Labour member of the Audit Committee, I will hold him to them and will play my full part in examining the details of the bill and comparing them with the principles that we have heard about today.

We promised the people of Scotland that the Parliament would bring power closer to the people. I believe that the approach in the bill is right and that we should leave control over local authority audits to the Accounts Commission. If the bill contained provisions to alter that, to draw control closer to the centre, we would send the wrong message to our democratically elected councils.

In recent weeks I have been pleased to take part in the process of appointing the Auditor General for Scotland. That is a public position, independent of the Executive, with a clear remit to scrutinise public finance and to ensure that the money of the people of Scotland is properly spent. That is a huge step forward, both for our country and for our system of government.

The principle behind that appointment must be followed through into the auditing of large and small public organisations; it must be carried through into the budget decisions of the Parliament and the daily expenditure by the Scottish Executive on our behalf.

I believe that the Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill puts the principles of transparent and open politics into practice. I am sure that MSPs will give the motion their enthusiastic support. I am sure that we will thoroughly scrutinise the bill so that it will create a sound and secure framework for financial control in Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5764809+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C709059", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26906, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 605.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 605.0, "ID": 26906, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 746.0, "ContributionID": 709059, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5764809+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C709048", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26906, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 605.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 605.0, "ID": 26906, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 724.0, "ContributionID": 709048, "EditedText": "I repeat the question that I put to one of Mr McConnell's colleagues earlier: does the Minister for Finance agree that it is wrong for the Westminster Parliament's Public Accounts Committee, or indeed for the National Audit Office, to take any interest whatsoever in the activities of the Scottish Parliament, given the same principle?", "EditedTextHTML": "I repeat the question that I put to one of Mr McConnell's colleagues earlier: does the Minister for Finance agree that it is wrong for the Westminster Parliament's Public Accounts Committee, or indeed for the National Audit Office, to take any interest whatsoever in the activities of the Scottish Parliament, given the same principle?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1926E190P479C709050", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26906, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 605.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 605.0, "ID": 26906, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Adam, Brian", "ID": 1926, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Adam", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Brian Adam rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 728.0, "ContributionID": 709050, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C709051", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26906, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 605.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 605.0, "ID": 26906, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 730.0, "ContributionID": 709051, "EditedText": "I was grateful for Andrew Wilson's contribution because of the time that I had to fill up, but I think, perhaps, that I should press on. The points about local enterprise companies that Alex Neil and others made perhaps sounded right in principle. We should have an interest in what is going on—in the money that is spent through the LECs. We will have an interest. The committees will have an interest and the Executive has a direct interest. It would have been wrong to delay this bill to use it to change the status of local enterprise companies or to wait for Westminster to change the Companies Act 1985, which would probably be necessary to give us the right to audit the books of local enterprise companies. I welcome the fact that Mr Swinney's committee, the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee, is examining that matter. I am sure that Mr McLeish and I will continue to discuss it, but I do not think that this is the time to take on the issue. I am very keen, however, that as much public money as possible is publicly accountable and open to scrutiny at all times. Mr Neil also mentioned end-of-year amounts being spent perhaps too quickly and readily by public organisations of all kinds, at all levels of government. I welcome the situation that exists for the first time this year, which was initiated by Mr Neil's good friend Gordon Brown, who I am sure he knew well in the '70s even if he does not know him so well nowadays. This year's system, which has allowed us to retain moneys not spent before 31 March, is good, and I think that the chamber will be happy when, next Wednesday, I make the expenditure statement in which I announce the Executive's plans for dealing with the matter in years to come. Although Andrew Wilson made some good points about the need to carry over money, to be strategic in our thinking and to be policy-driven in our approach to budgeting, I do not think that his point about the need to announce our budgeting decisions in advance to Parliament and get its approval for them can relate to every financial announcement ever made by a minister. That would be impractical, unnecessary and—frankly— inappropriate for the people of Scotland. There are times when it is more appropriate to make announcements elsewhere. The important thing about this bill is that it will ensure that no announcements that authorise expenditure can be made without this chamber's authorisation or, in an emergency, without members having been informed. That is an important principle. I do not intend to comment in length on the various remarks that have been made about our relationship with London, as Adam Ingram rather unfortunately put it, as if it were the bogey in the south. A number of important issues will need to be debated in Parliament in years to come—the operation of the Barnett formula, the relationship with the Secretary of State for Scotland and the Parliament's revenue-raising powers—but they are not issues for debate on this bill. We must focus our scrutiny on the elements of the bill that relate directly to the financial procedures of the Parliament. I know that Andrew Wilson has a particular— indeed an increasing—interest in the workings of the United Kingdom and in the good governance of Britain. I welcome Andrew's new approach. Laughter. However, it is important to note, as Adam Ingram almost did—although he reached the wrong conclusion—that the Secretary of State for Scotland plays an important role in fighting Scotland's case inside the UK Cabinet in London, for example our case for European structural funds which, as the member mentioned, are so important for so many communities.", "EditedTextHTML": "I was grateful for Andrew Wilson's contribution because of the time that I had to fill up, but I think, perhaps, that I should press on.

The points about local enterprise companies that Alex Neil and others made perhaps sounded right in principle. We should have an interest in what is going on—in the money that is spent through the LECs. We will have an interest. The committees will have an interest and the Executive has a direct interest. It would have been wrong to delay this bill to use it to change the status of local enterprise companies or to wait for Westminster to change the Companies Act 1985, which would probably be necessary to give us the right to audit the books of local enterprise companies.

I welcome the fact that Mr Swinney's committee, the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee, is examining that matter. I am sure that Mr McLeish and I will continue to discuss it, but I do not think that this is the time to take on the issue. I am very keen, however, that as much public money as possible is publicly accountable and open to scrutiny at all times.

Mr Neil also mentioned end-of-year amounts being spent perhaps too quickly and readily by public organisations of all kinds, at all levels of government. I welcome the situation that exists for the first time this year, which was initiated by Mr Neil's good friend Gordon Brown, who I am sure he knew well in the '70s even if he does not know him so well nowadays.

This year's system, which has allowed us to retain moneys not spent before 31 March, is good, and I think that the chamber will be happy when, next Wednesday, I make the expenditure statement in which I announce the Executive's plans for dealing with the matter in years to come.

Although Andrew Wilson made some good points about the need to carry over money, to be strategic in our thinking and to be policy-driven in our approach to budgeting, I do not think that his point about the need to announce our budgeting decisions in advance to Parliament and get its approval for them can relate to every financial announcement ever made by a minister. That would be impractical, unnecessary and—frankly— inappropriate for the people of Scotland. There are times when it is more appropriate to make announcements elsewhere. The important thing about this bill is that it will ensure that no announcements that authorise expenditure can be made without this chamber's authorisation or, in an emergency, without members having been informed. That is an important principle.

I do not intend to comment in length on the various remarks that have been made about our relationship with London, as Adam Ingram rather unfortunately put it, as if it were the bogey in the south.

A number of important issues will need to be debated in Parliament in years to come—the operation of the Barnett formula, the relationship with the Secretary of State for Scotland and the Parliament's revenue-raising powers—but they are not issues for debate on this bill. We must focus our scrutiny on the elements of the bill that relate directly to the financial procedures of the Parliament.

I know that Andrew Wilson has a particular— indeed an increasing—interest in the workings of the United Kingdom and in the good governance of Britain. I welcome Andrew's new approach.

[Laughter.] However, it is important to note, as Adam Ingram almost did—although he reached the wrong conclusion—that the Secretary of State for Scotland plays an important role in fighting Scotland's case inside the UK Cabinet in London, for example our case for European structural funds which, as the member mentioned, are so important for so many communities.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C709053", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26906, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 605.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 605.0, "ID": 26906, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 734.0, "ContributionID": 709053, "EditedText": "I have an important point to make.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have an important point to make.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1986E53P206C709065", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26906, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 605.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 605.0, "ID": 26906, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeil, Duncan", "ID": 1986, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Greenock and Inverclyde" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan McNeil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Duncan McNeil (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 758.0, "ContributionID": 709065, "EditedText": "On a point of order. Is it appropriate for someone who has not participated in the whole debate to come along and make an intervention?", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. Is it appropriate for someone who has not participated in the whole debate to come along and make an intervention?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709069", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26906, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 605.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 605.0, "ID": 26906, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 766.0, "ContributionID": 709069, "EditedText": "That concludes the debate.", "EditedTextHTML": "That concludes the debate.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709079", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26907, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 773.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 773.0, "ID": 26907, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 782.0, "ContributionID": 709079, "EditedText": "The result is as follows: For 58, Against 45.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result is as follows: For 58, Against 45.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709081", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26907, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 773.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 773.0, "ID": 26907, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 785.0, "ContributionID": 709081, "EditedText": "The second amendment, S1M-172.2, therefore falls as a result of the rewording of the motion. We move to the third question, which is, that motion S1M-172, in the name of Mr Alex Salmond, on education, as amended, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "The second amendment, S1M-172.2, therefore falls as a result of the rewording of the motion.

We move to the third question, which is, that motion S1M-172, in the name of Mr Alex Salmond, on education, as amended, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709082", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26907, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 773.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 773.0, "ID": 26907, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 787.0, "ContributionID": 709082, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709083", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26907, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 773.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 773.0, "ID": 26907, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 789.0, "ContributionID": 709083, "EditedText": "There are some noes, so there will be a division. Those members who want to support the motion, as amended, should vote yes.", "EditedTextHTML": "There are some noes, so there will be a division. Those members who want to support the motion, as amended, should vote yes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709084", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26907, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 773.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 773.0, "ID": 26907, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 791.0, "ContributionID": 709084, "EditedText": "FOR Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)(LD)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)AGAINST Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)ABSTENTIONS Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)
(LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)

AGAINST

Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)

ABSTENTIONS

Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709087", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26907, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 773.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 773.0, "ID": 26907, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 795.0, "ContributionID": 709087, "EditedText": "That the Parliament supports the Executive's intention to earn a world class reputation for the Scottish education system; calls upon the Executive to ensure that all children get the best start in life by maximising pupil attainment; welcomes the provision of substantial new resources for education including an additional £51m for school education identified in the Partnership Agreement; agrees that the quality of education in our schools depends on the professionalism and commitment of teachers; recognises the high standards and dedication of Scottish teachers; endorses the Executive's commitment to a programme of continuous professional development to assist teachers in maintaining and improving professional standards; agrees that the Scottish Joint Negotiation Committee machinery has failed Scottish teachers, pupils and parents, and calls upon the Executive to continue work towards its objective of ensuring a modern, adaptive and flexible mechanism for determining the professional conditions of service for teachers in Scotland's schools through the appointment of an independent Committee of Inquiry.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament supports the Executive's intention to earn a world class reputation for the Scottish education system; calls upon the Executive to ensure that all children get the best start in life by maximising pupil attainment; welcomes the provision of substantial new resources for education including an additional £51m for school education identified in the Partnership Agreement; agrees that the quality of education in our schools depends on the professionalism and commitment of teachers; recognises the high standards and dedication of Scottish teachers; endorses the Executive's commitment to a programme of continuous professional development to assist teachers in maintaining and improving professional standards; agrees that the Scottish Joint Negotiation Committee machinery has failed Scottish teachers, pupils and parents, and calls upon the Executive to continue work towards its objective of ensuring a modern, adaptive and flexible mechanism for determining the professional conditions of service for teachers in Scotland's schools through the appointment of an independent Committee of Inquiry.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709088", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26907, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 773.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 773.0, "ID": 26907, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 796.0, "ContributionID": 709088, "EditedText": "The next question is, that motion S1M-155, in the name of Mr Jack McConnell, on the general principles of the Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill, be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "The next question is, that motion S1M-155, in the name of Mr Jack McConnell, on the general principles of the Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill, be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709089", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26907, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 773.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 773.0, "ID": 26907, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 798.0, "ContributionID": 709089, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709092", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26907, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 773.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 773.0, "ID": 26907, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 802.0, "ContributionID": 709092, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709095", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26907, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 773.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 773.0, "ID": 26907, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 805.0, "ContributionID": 709095, "EditedText": "That the Parliament agrees the following designation of Lead Committee—", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament agrees the following designation of Lead Committee—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709096", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26907, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 773.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 773.0, "ID": 26907, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 806.0, "ContributionID": 709096, "EditedText": "The Education Culture and Sport Committee to consider the Educational Development, Research and Services (Scotland) Grant Regulations 1999 (SSI 1999/65).", "EditedTextHTML": "The Education Culture and Sport Committee to consider the Educational Development, Research and Services (Scotland) Grant Regulations 1999 (SSI 1999/65).

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709097", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26907, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 773.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 773.0, "ID": 26907, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 807.0, "ContributionID": 709097, "EditedText": "That concludes decision time. We now move to members' business.", "EditedTextHTML": "That concludes decision time. We now move to members' business.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709099", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26907, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 773.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 773.0, "ID": 26907, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 811.0, "ContributionID": 709099, "EditedText": "The member can raise a point of order if it is genuine.", "EditedTextHTML": "The member can raise a point of order if it is genuine.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709102", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26907, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 773.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 773.0, "ID": 26907, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "140. Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP) ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "140. Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 817.0, "ContributionID": 709102, "EditedText": "On a point of order, Presiding Officer.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order, Presiding Officer.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2038E191P344C709106", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26907, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 773.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 773.0, "ID": 26907, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Smith, Iain", "ID": 2038, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Iain Smith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Parliament (Iain Smith): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 825.0, "ContributionID": 709106, "EditedText": "I can advise the chamber that the concordats will be published and available to members at the same time as they are released to the press conference.", "EditedTextHTML": "I can advise the chamber that the concordats will be published and available to members at the same time as they are released to the press conference.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C709114", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mallaig Road", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26908, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 829.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 829.0, "ID": 26908, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 841.0, "ContributionID": 709114, "EditedText": "Very well.", "EditedTextHTML": "Very well.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C709116", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mallaig Road", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26908, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 829.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 829.0, "ID": 26908, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 846.0, "ContributionID": 709116, "EditedText": "I call Jamie Stone, to be followed by Jamie McGrigor.", "EditedTextHTML": "I call Jamie Stone, to be followed by Jamie McGrigor.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2223E203P342C709119", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mallaig Road", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26908, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 829.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 829.0, "ID": 26908, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scott, Tavish", "ID": 2223, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Shetland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tavish Scott", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tavish Scott (Shetland) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 853.0, "ContributionID": 709119, "EditedText": "I am grateful to Mr Stone for pointing out so quickly that it is my turn. I congratulate Fergus on securing today's debate. I am also grateful to him for clarifying two points. The first is that we each get only two members' debates a year—a fact of which I was unaware. It will be difficult to think of a subject for my second one, and Duncan Hamilton will probably have the same problem. Fergus's second point was that he intended to keep his remarks short. I am conscious that some of us, when taking an opportunity such as this, tend to waffle on for longer than we might otherwise.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful to Mr Stone for pointing out so quickly that it is my turn.

I congratulate Fergus on securing today's debate. I am also grateful to him for clarifying two points. The first is that we each get only two members' debates a year—a fact of which I was unaware. It will be difficult to think of a subject for my second one, and Duncan Hamilton will probably have the same problem. Fergus's second point was that he intended to keep his remarks short. I am conscious that some of us, when taking an opportunity such as this, tend to waffle on for longer than we might otherwise.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1878E208P502C709124", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mallaig Road", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26908, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 829.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 829.0, "ID": 26908, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Dr Winnie", "ID": 1878, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Winnie Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Winnie Ewing (Highlands and Islands) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 865.0, "ContributionID": 709124, "EditedText": "I first visited Mallaig when I was a student, on a yacht trip with other students. We met the captain of the ferry that plied between Mallaig and Skye. He had just cut the cable that took electricity to Skye, and said rather proudly, \"It takes a brave man from Mallaig to put the Sgitheanaichs in the shade, but I put them into total darkness.\" That is typical of the spirit of the Mallaig people. I will not rehearse the statistics, as they have been declared by all the speakers, but I want to praise the amazing spirit of those people who, with an enormous geographical disadvantage, have yet a thriving, prosperous town. Its middle name should be Enterprise. The inhabitants have managed to achieve their produce statistics despite the road. Culturally too, they thrive. Mallaig has a wonderful marine exhibition and museum. Those people do not sit back and ask for help; they are helping themselves in the best possible sense of endeavour. During my 24 years representing the Highlands and Islands in Europe, I have been up and down that road hundreds of times. I am disappointed that we did not achieve objective 1 status, which might have speeded up improvements, but I still hope to hear good news from the minister.", "EditedTextHTML": "I first visited Mallaig when I was a student, on a yacht trip with other students. We met the captain of the ferry that plied between Mallaig and Skye. He had just cut the cable that took electricity to Skye, and said rather proudly, \"It takes a brave man from Mallaig to put the Sgitheanaichs in the shade, but I put them into total darkness.\"

That is typical of the spirit of the Mallaig people. I will not rehearse the statistics, as they have been declared by all the speakers, but I want to praise the amazing spirit of those people who, with an enormous geographical disadvantage, have yet a thriving, prosperous town. Its middle name should be Enterprise. The inhabitants have managed to achieve their produce statistics despite the road.

Culturally too, they thrive. Mallaig has a wonderful marine exhibition and museum. Those people do not sit back and ask for help; they are helping themselves in the best possible sense of endeavour. During my 24 years representing the Highlands and Islands in Europe, I have been up and down that road hundreds of times. I am disappointed that we did not achieve objective 1 status, which might have speeded up improvements, but I still hope to hear good news from the minister.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C709126", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mallaig Road", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26908, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 829.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 829.0, "ID": 26908, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 871.0, "ContributionID": 709126, "EditedText": "The good thing about speaking last in a debate is that my speech is about 10 per cent of what it was. I would like to commend those who substantiated and supported Fergus Ewing's arguments. Under the Conservatives, 75 per cent of the Mallaig road was upgraded—a £7 million contract upgraded the final section from near Lochailort to Loch nan Uamh, completing that 75 per cent. The remaining objections to the section from Arisaig to Kinsadel, the section that Fergus was talking about, went to a public inquiry in Arisaig on 11 March 1997—about a month before the general election. Fergus stood three times as a parliamentary candidate for that constituency and I stood twice. At a chamber of commerce public meeting in 1999, the Labour candidate, who was given the title of home affairs spokesman, promised the good people of Mallaig that the A830 upgrading was top of Donald Dewar's priority list.", "EditedTextHTML": "The good thing about speaking last in a debate is that my speech is about 10 per cent of what it was. I would like to commend those who substantiated and supported Fergus Ewing's arguments.

Under the Conservatives, 75 per cent of the Mallaig road was upgraded—a £7 million contract upgraded the final section from near Lochailort to Loch nan Uamh, completing that 75 per cent. The remaining objections to the section from Arisaig to Kinsadel, the section that Fergus was talking about, went to a public inquiry in Arisaig on 11 March 1997—about a month before the general election.

Fergus stood three times as a parliamentary candidate for that constituency and I stood twice. At a chamber of commerce public meeting in 1999, the Labour candidate, who was given the title of home affairs spokesman, promised the good people of Mallaig that the A830 upgrading was top of Donald Dewar's priority list.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2056E57P84C709136", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mallaig Road", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26908, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 829.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 829.0, "ID": 26908, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James", "ID": 2056, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "James Douglas-Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Lord James Douglas-Hamilton (Lothians) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 893.0, "ContributionID": 709136, "EditedText": "Will Mr Morrison give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr Morrison give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1889E118P162C709138", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mallaig Road", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26908, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 829.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 829.0, "ID": 26908, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morrison, Mr Alasdair", "ID": 1889, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Western Isles" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morrison", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Morrison: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 897.0, "ContributionID": 709138, "EditedText": "I assure Mr Ewing that the scheme is being given full and fair consideration in the review and that I will relay to Sarah Boyack the very strong support which has been articulated in the chamber today. I should also say that the scheme was considered at a public inquiry in March 1997. Assuming that it clears the hurdle of the review, it should be possible to complete the remaining statutory procedures speedily and move towards construction.", "EditedTextHTML": "I assure Mr Ewing that the scheme is being given full and fair consideration in the review and that I will relay to Sarah Boyack the very strong support which has been articulated in the chamber today.

I should also say that the scheme was considered at a public inquiry in March 1997. Assuming that it clears the hurdle of the review, it should be possible to complete the remaining statutory procedures speedily and move towards construction.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C709002", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26906, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 605.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 605.0, "ID": 26906, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 615.0, "ContributionID": 709002, "EditedText": "On the issue of the statutory responsibilities of the Auditor General, does the minister agree that there is a case for examining the audit arrangements for local enterprise companies? As I understand it, those companies will, due to their status, be outwith the scope of the Auditor General's responsibilities. Does he think that this issue should be examined further outwith the scope of the bill and that further legislation should be introduced?", "EditedTextHTML": "On the issue of the statutory responsibilities of the Auditor General, does the minister agree that there is a case for examining the audit arrangements for local enterprise companies? As I understand it, those companies will, due to their status, be outwith the scope of the Auditor General's responsibilities. Does he think that this issue should be examined further outwith the scope of the bill and that further legislation should be introduced?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:03:51.8585749+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C708843", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 266.0, "ContributionID": 708843, "EditedText": "On a point of order. Throughout my colleague's speech, Labour members were involved in a number of most discourteous sub-committee meetings in this chamber. Can the chair protect speakers against the discourtesy of Labour members?", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. Throughout my colleague's speech, Labour members were involved in a number of most discourteous sub-committee meetings in this chamber. Can the chair protect speakers against the discourtesy of Labour members?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:00:18.757086+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1857E136P222C708930", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26880, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26881, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 380.0, "QuestionHeading": "Housing", "QuestionHeadingID": 26889, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 452.0, "DisplayOrder": 452.0, "ID": 26889, "ParentID": 26881 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeill, Pauline", "ID": 1857, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Kelvin" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Pauline McNeill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "8. Pauline McNeill (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 453.0, "ContributionID": 708930, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has to amend local authority regulations to ensure safety in houses of multiple occupation. (S1O-388) The Minister for Communities (Ms Wendy Alexander): I can announce today that I plan to introduce mandatory licensing of houses in multiple occupation. The new licensing scheme will cover fire safety, the physical condition of such buildings, the nuisance caused to neighbours and the availability and cleanliness of sanitary and cooking facilities.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has to amend local authority regulations to ensure safety in houses of multiple occupation. (S1O-388) The Minister for Communities (Ms Wendy Alexander): I can announce today that I plan to introduce mandatory licensing of houses in multiple occupation. The new licensing scheme will cover fire safety, the physical condition of such buildings, the nuisance caused to neighbours and the availability and cleanliness of sanitary and cooking facilities.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:02:32.7857179+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C708946", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26880, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26881, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 380.0, "QuestionHeading": "Pig Industry", "QuestionHeadingID": 26892, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 483.0, "DisplayOrder": 483.0, "ID": 26892, "ParentID": 26881 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 488.0, "ContributionID": 708946, "EditedText": "I thank the minister for his answer, and for the announcement that he made some time ago. Does he accept that due to the superior animal welfare regulations that exist in the pig industry in Scotland, there is a case for some of the cost of this regime to be carried by the Executive? What action has he taken to reduce the impact of high fuel prices on the competitiveness of the pig industry in Scotland?", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the minister for his answer, and for the announcement that he made some time ago. Does he accept that due to the superior animal welfare regulations that exist in the pig industry in Scotland, there is a case for some of the cost of this regime to be carried by the Executive? What action has he taken to reduce the impact of high fuel prices on the competitiveness of the pig industry in Scotland?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:02:32.7857179+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2110E214P424C708955", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26880, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26881, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 380.0, "QuestionHeading": "Late Payment", "QuestionHeadingID": 26895, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 506.0, "DisplayOrder": 506.0, "ID": 26895, "ParentID": 26881 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gibson, Kenneth", "ID": 2110, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenneth Gibson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Gibson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 509.0, "ContributionID": 708955, "EditedText": "Can the deputy minister say whether the fact that Jack McConnell has scurried away rather than answer this question has anything to do with the written apology that was issued to Councillor Bruce Crawford and me earlier today? The apology was for the slur on my colleague in Mr McConnell's inaccurate and misleading reply to a very similar question that I asked two weeks ago.", "EditedTextHTML": "Can the deputy minister say whether the fact that Jack McConnell has scurried away rather than answer this question has anything to do with the written apology that was issued to Councillor Bruce Crawford and me earlier today? The apology was for the slur on my colleague in Mr McConnell's inaccurate and misleading reply to a very similar question that I asked two weeks ago.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:02:32.7857179+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2029E47P167C708728", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Henry, Hugh", "ID": 2029, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Hugh Henry", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Hugh Henry (Paisley South) (Lab) rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 13.0, "ContributionID": 708728, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1768E72P274C708732", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Murray, Elaine", "ID": 1768, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumfries" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Murray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Elaine Murray (Dumfries) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 21.0, "ContributionID": 708732, "EditedText": "Will Ms Sturgeon inform the chamber whether the SNP councils represented on COSLA supported COSLA's proposed offer?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Ms Sturgeon inform the chamber whether the SNP councils represented on COSLA supported COSLA's proposed offer?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C708745", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan (Glasgow) (SSP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 48.0, "ContributionID": 708745, "EditedText": "I do not know whether the fact that the minister has given way is an indication of favouritism. He was asked a question on the committee of inquiry, which I repeat now. Can he justify to members the fact that no representative of the teaching unions or of classroom teachers is involved in the committee?", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not know whether the fact that the minister has given way is an indication of favouritism. He was asked a question on the committee of inquiry, which I repeat now. Can he justify to members the fact that no representative of the teaching unions or of classroom teachers is involved in the committee?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C708748", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Galbraith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 54.0, "ContributionID": 708748, "EditedText": "I will give way, but for the last time, as I am trying to keep to the time limit.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will give way, but for the last time, as I am trying to keep to the time limit.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C708753", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Galbraith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 64.0, "ContributionID": 708753, "EditedText": "I am winding up.Nevertheless, we have acted decisively and positively to show the way forward. Our approach allows the existing machinery of the SJNC to deliver a pay settlement in the short term, while a strong and independent committee develops considered proposals for change for the future. I invite the Parliament to recognise the need for change and to endorse our considered approach to securing the professional conditions of service that our teachers deserve and that our schools need. I move, as an amendment to S1M-172, in the name of Mr Alex Salmond, to leave out from \"notes\" to end and insert: \"supports the Executive's intention to earn a world class reputation for the Scottish education system; calls upon the Executive to ensure that all children get the best start in life by maximising pupil attainment; welcomes the provision of substantial new resources for education including an additional £51m for school education identified in the Partnership Agreement; agrees that the quality of education in our schools depends on the professionalism and commitment of teachers; recognises the high standards and dedication of Scottish teachers; endorses the Executive's commitment to a programme of continuous professional development to assist teachers in maintaining and improving professional standards; agrees that the Scottish Joint Negotiation Committee machinery has failed Scottish teachers, pupils and parents, and calls upon the Executive to continue work towards its objective of ensuring a modern, adaptive and flexible mechanism for determining the professional conditions of service for teachers in Scotland's schools through the appointment of an independent Committee of Inquiry.\"", "EditedTextHTML": "I am winding up.

Nevertheless, we have acted decisively and positively to show the way forward. Our approach allows the existing machinery of the SJNC to deliver a pay settlement in the short term, while a strong and independent committee develops considered proposals for change for the future.

I invite the Parliament to recognise the need for change and to endorse our considered approach to securing the professional conditions of service that our teachers deserve and that our schools need.

I move, as an amendment to S1M-172, in the name of Mr Alex Salmond, to leave out from \"notes\" to end and insert:

\"supports the Executive's intention to earn a world class reputation for the Scottish education system; calls upon the Executive to ensure that all children get the best start in life by maximising pupil attainment; welcomes the provision of substantial new resources for education including an additional £51m for school education identified in the Partnership Agreement; agrees that the quality of education in our schools depends on the professionalism and commitment of teachers; recognises the high standards and dedication of Scottish teachers; endorses the Executive's commitment to a programme of continuous professional development to assist teachers in maintaining and improving professional standards; agrees that the Scottish Joint Negotiation Committee machinery has failed Scottish teachers, pupils and parents, and calls upon the Executive to continue work towards its objective of ensuring a modern, adaptive and flexible mechanism for determining the professional conditions of service for teachers in Scotland's schools through the appointment of an independent Committee of Inquiry.\"

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708754", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 66.0, "ContributionID": 708754, "EditedText": "Both front-bench speakers have kept within the time limit, which is a new record for the Parliament. I call on Mr Monteith to do likewise and to move amendment S1M-172.2. To get everybody in, back-bench speakers will be limited to four minutes.", "EditedTextHTML": "Both front-bench speakers have kept within the time limit, which is a new record for the Parliament. I call on Mr Monteith to do likewise and to move amendment S1M-172.2. To get everybody in, back-bench speakers will be limited to four minutes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2068E171P304C708765", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stone, Jamie", "ID": 2068, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie Stone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Stone: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 90.0, "ContributionID": 708765, "EditedText": "The minister has dealt with that in terms of the head teacher. I am now talking about getting rid of the SJNC. Nicola made great play of the inadvisability of doing that. The point is that the system is perceived not to have worked, so we are wiping the decks clean and finding out how to improve things. The committee of inquiry is free to come up with whatever recommendations it sees fit, which the Liberal Democrats will follow very closely. That aspect of its work is crucial, and we must not lose sight of it.", "EditedTextHTML": "The minister has dealt with that in terms of the head teacher. I am now talking about getting rid of the SJNC. Nicola made great play of the inadvisability of doing that. The point is that the system is perceived not to have worked, so we are wiping the decks clean and finding out how to improve things.

The committee of inquiry is free to come up with whatever recommendations it sees fit, which the Liberal Democrats will follow very closely. That aspect of its work is crucial, and we must not lose sight of it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2068E171P304C708767", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stone, Jamie", "ID": 2068, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie Stone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Stone: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 94.0, "ContributionID": 708767, "EditedText": "Nicola Sturgeon is a superb political player. Of course, I shall not do as she suggests because Donald and I are taking a genuine back- bench initiative to find out what can best be done. The committee of inquiry has been established. We are talking about the future. We are in a bind. We must have the courage to go out there and find out what can be done. The Executive is addressing the issue and ultimately all the facts will be on the table. For too long, the mechanism of the SJNC has been something of a dark art to the layman. The sooner that information comes into the open, to this chamber, the better. I support the amendment in the name of Sam Galbraith.", "EditedTextHTML": "Nicola Sturgeon is a superb political player. Of course, I shall not do as she suggests because Donald and I are taking a genuine back- bench initiative to find out what can best be done. The committee of inquiry has been established. We are talking about the future. We are in a bind. We must have the courage to go out there and find out what can be done. The Executive is addressing the issue and ultimately all the facts will be on the table. For too long, the mechanism of the SJNC has been something of a dark art to the layman. The sooner that information comes into the open, to this chamber, the better.

I support the amendment in the name of Sam Galbraith.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1840E82P158C708769", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macmillan, Maureen", "ID": 1840, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Maureen Macmillan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Maureen Macmillan (Highlands and Islands) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 100.0, "ContributionID": 708769, "EditedText": "I stand before members as a real teacher, and a member of the EIS until May. All my previous working life has been spent as a teacher of English. I am not sorry to see the collapse of the SJNC negotiations. The proposals would have done nothing to address the deep disillusionment that has built up among teachers over the past 15 years. Settlement after settlement has failed teachers on pay and conditions of service. As Sam Galbraith said when he announced the committee of inquiry, two of the key issues are the conditions in which teachers work and the support facilities that are available to them. As a teacher I have had, over the past 15 years, to cope with a never-ending series of new initiatives that has included standard grades, Scottish Vocational Education Council modules, revised higher grades, five to 14 and higher still. Each has brought an additional work load that has had to be absorbed by teachers. The amount of course development, reporting, preparation and correcting time has varied from subject to subject in education. I want to describe the impact on a teacher of English—a subject that carries probably the heaviest work load of all.I taught for 27½ hours per week. If a teacher has five year groups of 30 pupils each, the teacher is responsible for 150 pupils. If the teacher spends 10 minutes a week correcting work, that adds another 15 hours' work. The teacher must then spend a minimum of one or two minutes putting marks and comments on pupil profiles, and that adds another two or three hours a week. We should add two or three hours for lesson preparation time, photocopying, collating worksheets, chasing up sets of books and preparatory reading. On top of all that is added the time spent talking to and writing to parents, speaking to pupils in free time, filling in guidance forms, filling in University and College Admissions Service forms and all the administrative work that a teacher finds piled on them with no administrative help. Administrative help in schools is scarcer than hens' teeth.", "EditedTextHTML": "I stand before members as a real teacher, and a member of the EIS until May. All my previous working life has been spent as a teacher of English. I am not sorry to see the collapse of the SJNC negotiations. The proposals would have done nothing to address the deep disillusionment that has built up among teachers over the past 15 years. Settlement after settlement has failed teachers on pay and conditions of service. As Sam Galbraith said when he announced the committee of inquiry, two of the key issues are the conditions in which teachers work and the support facilities that are available to them.

As a teacher I have had, over the past 15 years, to cope with a never-ending series of new initiatives that has included standard grades, Scottish Vocational Education Council modules, revised higher grades, five to 14 and higher still. Each has brought an additional work load that has had to be absorbed by teachers.

The amount of course development, reporting, preparation and correcting time has varied from subject to subject in education. I want to describe the impact on a teacher of English—a subject that

carries probably the heaviest work load of all.

I taught for 27½ hours per week. If a teacher has five year groups of 30 pupils each, the teacher is responsible for 150 pupils. If the teacher spends 10 minutes a week correcting work, that adds another 15 hours' work. The teacher must then spend a minimum of one or two minutes putting marks and comments on pupil profiles, and that adds another two or three hours a week.

We should add two or three hours for lesson preparation time, photocopying, collating worksheets, chasing up sets of books and preparatory reading. On top of all that is added the time spent talking to and writing to parents, speaking to pupils in free time, filling in guidance forms, filling in University and College Admissions Service forms and all the administrative work that a teacher finds piled on them with no administrative help. Administrative help in schools is scarcer than hens' teeth.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1775E171P452C708770", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeod, Fiona", "ID": 1775, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona McLeod", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona McLeod: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 102.0, "ContributionID": 708770, "EditedText": "Maureen Macmillan gives us details of all the hours that a teacher must work. How will the teachers' situation be helped by adding 50 hours of social inclusion work to that?", "EditedTextHTML": "Maureen Macmillan gives us details of all the hours that a teacher must work. How will the teachers' situation be helped by adding 50 hours of social inclusion work to that?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1840E82P158C708771", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macmillan, Maureen", "ID": 1840, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Maureen Macmillan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Maureen Macmillan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 104.0, "ContributionID": 708771, "EditedText": "I was hoping to make that point. It is crucial that the proposed committee examines teachers' working conditions. This is a chance in a generation to address the problem of teachers' work loads in detail. It should be done not in a general way, but subject by subject. In that way, we will be able to see how the load can be lightened before we contemplate any further changes to school structures and management.", "EditedTextHTML": "I was hoping to make that point. It is crucial that the proposed committee examines teachers' working conditions.

This is a chance in a generation to address the problem of teachers' work loads in detail. It should be done not in a general way, but subject by subject. In that way, we will be able to see how the load can be lightened before we contemplate any further changes to school structures and management.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1840E82P158C708774", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macmillan, Maureen", "ID": 1840, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Maureen Macmillan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Maureen Macmillan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 110.0, "ContributionID": 708774, "EditedText": "I am winding up.We must sort out work loads before we go further.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am winding up.

We must sort out work loads before we go further.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C708780", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Monteith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 125.0, "ContributionID": 708780, "EditedText": "Mrs Mulligan implied that there are people who are better suited to the role of arbiter. She then talked about the role of local government. In other areas of employment, outside education, local government has a procedure that involves the Advisory, Conciliation and Arbitration Service. Does she accept that those people are professionals and that they would become the arbiters in the dispute?", "EditedTextHTML": "Mrs Mulligan implied that there are people who are better suited to the role of arbiter. She then talked about the role of local government. In other areas of employment, outside education, local government has a procedure that involves the Advisory, Conciliation and Arbitration Service. Does she accept that those people are professionals and that they would become the arbiters in the dispute?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1837E108P186C708781", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mulligan, Mary", "ID": 1837, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Linlithgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Mulligan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Mulligan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 127.0, "ContributionID": 708781, "EditedText": "I accept that those people are professional in that way. However, it is up to the teachers and their employers to decide who they want to arbitrate. I strongly recognise the importance of teachers working with management and this Parliament to deliver the highest quality of education for all our children. I feel strongly that their professionalism should be recognised. There are several ways in which that is already being done—just three are the introduction of classroom assistants; improvements in information and communications technology facilities; and plans to improve continuous professional development opportunities for teachers. Much is going on in education that everyone would agree is good, but the present unresolved situation is holding back further improvements. At best, the SNP is being opportunistic in lodging the motion. If the SNP had lodged a motion on an issue such as the way in which a wider view of education could be encouraged, or how we could encourage our children to take part in sport, appreciate culture and play a full part as citizens, I might have felt that we were beginning to move forward in the debate on education. We should consider how we can give our children and young people a fuller appreciation of the education process. One of the most worrying aspects of the education system is the number of children who opt out of that system. Let us debate how we can make school more relevant to those children. Many issues have been raised in the Education, Culture and Sport Committee, as Brian Monteith said. I hope that we will be able to discuss them over the coming months.", "EditedTextHTML": "I accept that those people are professional in that way. However, it is up to the teachers and their employers to decide who they want to arbitrate.

I strongly recognise the importance of teachers working with management and this Parliament to deliver the highest quality of education for all our children. I feel strongly that their professionalism should be recognised. There are several ways in which that is already being done—just three are the introduction of classroom assistants; improvements in information and communications technology facilities; and plans to improve continuous professional development opportunities for teachers. Much is going on in education that everyone would agree is good, but

the present unresolved situation is holding back further improvements.

At best, the SNP is being opportunistic in lodging the motion. If the SNP had lodged a motion on an issue such as the way in which a wider view of education could be encouraged, or how we could encourage our children to take part in sport, appreciate culture and play a full part as citizens, I might have felt that we were beginning to move forward in the debate on education. We should consider how we can give our children and young people a fuller appreciation of the education process. One of the most worrying aspects of the education system is the number of children who opt out of that system. Let us debate how we can make school more relevant to those children.

Many issues have been raised in the Education, Culture and Sport Committee, as Brian Monteith said. I hope that we will be able to discuss them over the coming months.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C708798", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 168.0, "ContributionID": 708798, "EditedText": "Very briefly, please.", "EditedTextHTML": "Very briefly, please.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2188E70P92C708794", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harper, Robin", "ID": 2188, "PartyName": "Scottish Green Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Green", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robin Harper", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robin Harper (Lothians) (Green): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 159.0, "ContributionID": 708794, "EditedText": "As a former president of my local EIS association, former member of the national council and someone who has remained in contact with my local union branch over the past few months, I must declare my interest in this matter. What I have to say therefore carries more weight than Jamie Stone's straw poll. I have in my hand the latest EIS response to the consultation on the improvement in Scottish education bill. I draw members' attention to the first paragraph, which states: \"There is much in the introductory remarks to this document with which the EIS would want to be associated. Improvement should take as its starting point the needs of schools and their children and it is the task of the many agencies concerned to support that process.\" This document is peppered with phrases such as, \"we welcome\" and \"strikes a good balance\". It is absolute proof that the EIS is prepared to take part in constructive dialogue with the Government and COSLA on the future of education in Scotland. I recommend that people read it: in particular, Mr Galbraith should pay close attention to the caveats in it. I would like to convey to members the feelings of an EIS member, expressed in a letter I have received: \"Robin . . . In the statements which have come from the Executive and the Local Authorities in the current debate there has been a constant thread of circumscribing and tying down the job of a teacher. No thought seems to have been given to the work which teachers do over and above that carried out while teaching classes. Nor has anything like adequate account been taken of the amount of preparation, correction and study which goes into making a well taught course of lessons.\" There has been much reference to that on both sides of the debate. \"This is work which is done at a place and time of the teacher's choosing, which is why you see so many carrying piles of jotters out of the door as they leave school . . .The amount of time to be spent on organising up to date teaching materials, trying out new approaches and discussing the problems of individual pupils will not decrease. Many continuing developments, such as the introduction of new courses and the integration into mainstream education of pupils previously in special schools are already increasing the demands on a teacher's time and skills. But what is the response of the Minister? He seems to be taking the line that if teachers are spending all this time on school work, and no one doubts that they are, then they will not mind if some of that time is taken up by further duties. There, plain to see, is the flaw in the argument.Either even more teachers will crack under the strain,\"— and there has been reference to that— \"or they will have to give up something. What would the Minister like them to give up—organising educational visits to Orkney or France? Marking homework? Taking the football on a Saturday morning? What is not being recognised here is that volunteers give more than time servers. Teachers who turn out on a rainy weekend morning to take a sports event or drive the debating team to a competition of an evening willingly give the time to this because they see the advantage it confers on their own pupils, not because it looks good on their timesheet. There are teacher shortages in most areas of schooling now. Organising in-service training for Higher Still is a real headache because there are simply not enough supply teachers available. A flu epidemic this winter could cost more school days than the threatened strikes, as absent teachers cannot be replaced. The Executive's current attack on the professional freedom of teachers, in spite of what the Minister purports to be doing and says he is in favour of, cannot help but add to the problem by making teaching an even less attractive career than it already is. The SJNC, the negotiating body, contains representatives of the teachers, the local authorities and the Executive. The Minister and his predecessors (of the same political party) have not been playing a full role in the discussions. To hear Sam Galbraith talk you would think he was on the outside of these negotiations, and perhaps he has been. But that is his choice. He could have been helping to find a consensus from the inside, rather than making veiled, and now not so veiled, threats, from the sidelines. Now the negotiations have not produced the result he wanted, the Minister is threatening to take away the negotiating body. I hope the Minister will not mind my saying that as a teacher I have heard that argument before, but the words were slightly different: ‘If you won't let me win, I'm taking my ball away!' This is not the sort of sensible and considered response we had hoped to hear from a Scottish Executive close to the people. The Minister has set up an enquiry to consider the pay of teachers, almost all of whom spend the bulk of their working week teaching pupils and doing the associated preparation and correction. Yet there is not a single classroom teacher on this committee. The Minister has further compromised any independence the committee might be seen to have by telling it what to decide about the SJNC—it is to be abolished. The Executive cannot hide behind these fictions and evade responsibility. The Minister should be taking a full part in discussions and not be attacking those who are working hard to find a just and effective way to organise the pay and conditions of teachers at the start of the next millennium.\" Those are the thoughts of an ordinary classroom teacher.", "EditedTextHTML": "As a former president of my local EIS association, former member of the national council and someone who has remained in contact with my local union branch over the past few months, I must declare my interest in this matter. What I have to say therefore carries more weight than Jamie Stone's straw poll.

I have in my hand the latest EIS response to the consultation on the improvement in Scottish education bill. I draw members' attention to the first paragraph, which states:

\"There is much in the introductory remarks to this document with which the EIS would want to be associated. Improvement should take as its starting point the needs of schools and their children and it is the task of the many agencies concerned to support that process.\"

This document is peppered with phrases such as, \"we welcome\" and \"strikes a good balance\". It is absolute proof that the EIS is prepared to take part in constructive dialogue with the Government and COSLA on the future of education in Scotland. I recommend that people read it: in particular, Mr Galbraith should pay close attention to the caveats in it.

I would like to convey to members the feelings of an EIS member, expressed in a letter I have received:

\"Robin . . . In the statements which have come from the Executive and the Local Authorities in the current debate there has been a constant thread of circumscribing and tying down the job of a teacher. No thought seems to have been given to the work which teachers do over and above that carried out while teaching classes. Nor has anything like adequate account been taken of the amount of preparation, correction and study which goes into making a well taught course of lessons.\"

There has been much reference to that on both sides of the debate.

\"This is work which is done at a place and time of the teacher's choosing, which is why you see so many carrying piles of jotters out of the door as they leave school . . .The amount of time to be spent on organising up to date teaching materials, trying out new approaches and discussing the problems of individual pupils will not decrease. Many continuing developments, such as the introduction of new courses and the integration into

mainstream education of pupils previously in special schools are already increasing the demands on a teacher's time and skills.

But what is the response of the Minister? He seems to be taking the line that if teachers are spending all this time on school work, and no one doubts that they are, then they will not mind if some of that time is taken up by further duties.

There, plain to see, is the flaw in the argument.

Either even more teachers will crack under the strain,\"— and there has been reference to that—

\"or they will have to give up something. What would the Minister like them to give up—organising educational visits to Orkney or France? Marking homework? Taking the football on a Saturday morning?

What is not being recognised here is that volunteers give more than time servers. Teachers who turn out on a rainy weekend morning to take a sports event or drive the debating team to a competition of an evening willingly give the time to this because they see the advantage it confers on their own pupils, not because it looks good on their timesheet.

There are teacher shortages in most areas of schooling now. Organising in-service training for Higher Still is a real headache because there are simply not enough supply teachers available. A flu epidemic this winter could cost more school days than the threatened strikes, as absent teachers cannot be replaced. The Executive's current attack on the professional freedom of teachers, in spite of what the Minister purports to be doing and says he is in favour of, cannot help but add to the problem by making teaching an even less attractive career than it already is.

The SJNC, the negotiating body, contains representatives of the teachers, the local authorities and the Executive. The Minister and his predecessors (of the same political party) have not been playing a full role in the discussions. To hear Sam Galbraith talk you would think he was on the outside of these negotiations, and perhaps he has been. But that is his choice. He could have been helping to find a consensus from the inside, rather than making veiled, and now not so veiled, threats, from the sidelines.

Now the negotiations have not produced the result he wanted, the Minister is threatening to take away the negotiating body. I hope the Minister will not mind my saying that as a teacher I have heard that argument before, but the words were slightly different: ‘If you won't let me win, I'm taking my ball away!' This is not the sort of sensible and considered response we had hoped to hear from a Scottish Executive close to the people.

The Minister has set up an enquiry to consider the pay of teachers, almost all of whom spend the bulk of their working week teaching pupils and doing the associated preparation and correction. Yet there is not a single classroom teacher on this committee.

The Minister has further compromised any independence the committee might be seen to have by telling it what to decide about the SJNC—it is to be abolished.

The Executive cannot hide behind these fictions and evade responsibility. The Minister should be taking a full part in discussions and not be attacking those who are working hard to find a just and effective way to organise the pay and conditions of teachers at the start of the next millennium.\"

Those are the thoughts of an ordinary classroom teacher.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2123E103P242C708802", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Chisholm, Malcolm", "ID": 2123, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh North and Leith" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Malcolm Chisholm", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Malcolm Chisholm: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 177.0, "ContributionID": 708802, "EditedText": "I am glad that Nicola Sturgeon found my beginning positive. I will now turn to the SNP. The SNP motion reduces this matter to lack of resources. The SNP position would have some credibility if it had flagged up education as the one area in this Parliament that was to get extra resources, with the consequence that other areas would suffer. However, the motion today lacks credibility as the SNP calls for extra resources in every debate. It occurs to me that SNP members in this Parliament take a Trotskyist position over and over again. What we hear from them is transitional demands, asking for money across every range of policy that they know cannot be delivered. They must address that if their proposals are to be taken more seriously.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am glad that Nicola Sturgeon found my beginning positive. I will now turn to the SNP. The SNP motion reduces this matter to lack of resources. The SNP position would have some credibility if it had flagged up education as the one area in this Parliament that was to get extra resources, with the consequence that other areas would suffer. However, the motion today lacks credibility as the SNP calls for extra resources in every debate.

It occurs to me that SNP members in this Parliament take a Trotskyist position over and over again. What we hear from them is transitional demands, asking for money across every range of policy that they know cannot be delivered. They must address that if their proposals are to be taken more seriously.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2123E103P242C708804", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Chisholm, Malcolm", "ID": 2123, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh North and Leith" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Malcolm Chisholm", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Malcolm Chisholm: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 181.0, "ContributionID": 708804, "EditedText": "That takes me on to the Executive amendment. The Executive amendment refers to substantial extra resources for education. Without pre-empting decisions that Gordon Brown will make, I am confident that considerable extra resources will be allocated to this Parliament over the next few years, for health and education in particular, although it is up to this Parliament to decide what it spends its resources on. It is important—and it is acknowledged by the Executive amendment—that we take teachers with us in all those positive initiatives, which are partly to do with money but partly to do with extra places for nursery education and extra help in the primary school. However, I do not believe that the SJNC is the main issue for teachers, so I accept the proposal for an independent committee. I will make one final plea in relation to that committee. I agree with the STUC in its criticism of its composition. The independent committee would be more widely acceptable to this Parliament and to the teaching profession if it had at least one trade unionist and, especially, one ordinary classroom teacher on it. The minister must recognise that the experience of ordinary classroom teachers is very different from that of head teachers. With that proviso, I am prepared to accept the Executive amendment.", "EditedTextHTML": "That takes me on to the Executive amendment. The Executive amendment refers to substantial extra resources for education. Without pre-empting decisions that Gordon Brown will make, I am confident that considerable extra resources will be allocated to this Parliament over the next few years, for health and education in particular, although it is up to this Parliament to decide what it spends its resources on.

It is important—and it is acknowledged by the Executive amendment—that we take teachers with us in all those positive initiatives, which are partly to do with money but partly to do with extra places for nursery education and extra help in the primary school. However, I do not believe that the SJNC is the main issue for teachers, so I accept the proposal for an independent committee.

I will make one final plea in relation to that committee. I agree with the STUC in its criticism of its composition. The independent committee would be more widely acceptable to this Parliament and

to the teaching profession if it had at least one trade unionist and, especially, one ordinary classroom teacher on it. The minister must recognise that the experience of ordinary classroom teachers is very different from that of head teachers. With that proviso, I am prepared to accept the Executive amendment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1814E135P516C708805", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Fabiani, Linda", "ID": 1814, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Linda Fabiani", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Linda Fabiani (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 184.0, "ContributionID": 708805, "EditedText": "The minister explained last week why he was asking an independent committee to consider teachers' pay and conditions. Maybe we need more Scottish history taught, not just in schools, as some members propose, but to the minister and his colleagues. Perhaps Murray Tosh could help to set that up for us. The minister's script could have been lifted from the Tory archives. This is a rerun of what happened in March 1986 when Malcolm Rifkind, then Secretary of State for Scotland, was desperately looking for a way to end the teachers' dispute. He announced an independent inquiry and the Main committee was set up. It took seven years for the Tories to get into that mess, yet here we are in the same position in the first term of the Scottish Parliament. Unlike my colleague Nicola Sturgeon, I was not at school during the last series of teachers' strikes, but I do remember them and the damage that they did to our young people, then and since. There was two years and six months of disruption—work to rule, missed lessons and no extra-curricular activities. Lloyd Quinan has mentioned the damage to sport. The problem was, then as now, that teachers' pay had been seriously eroded, with those in power unwilling to make a straightforward settlement, and there was a decent pay rise only for the lucky ones. No promoted posts this time, though, but their removal so that savings can be used to fund the present offer. Now, as then, there is a strong case for a pay rise for teachers and there is also a genuine need for reform. Those two issues need not be too closely linked, unless the minister intends to use pay as a means to blackmail the teaching profession over conditions. On reform, why is there constant harping on about teachers having to be willing to change? As others have said today, teachers have for many years been receptive to change. The minister tells teachers that they must put children first. How patronising. He overlooks the fact that the vast majority of teachers put children first every time that they teach a lesson. When the millennium review was reported, the EIS general secretary said: \"I believe strongly that the outcome is a very positive one for schools and teachers and offers now the opportunity for substantial improvement in the delivery of education and for improved salaries for teachers.\" No, teachers are not opposed to change; teachers are opposed to erosion of their pay and conditions and the imposition of ill-considered change. For reasons known only to himself the minister is being hostile to the teachers, as he never was to his own professional counterparts when he was health minister. Already his approach is bearing fruit. He has achieved more than Mrs Liddell did during her short time as teacher and nat-basher general. Even she did not manage to turn a confirmed 98 per cent of the teaching profession against her. I echo Nicola Sturgeon's call for honesty in this debate. Labour is spending proportionately less on education than the Tories. That is confirmed by a letter from the House of Commons library, dated 21 September. It states that \"although spending on education is planned to increase as a proportion of GDP during the Comprehensive Spending Review period, it will not return to the levels recorded in the early 1990s\". The minister should stop pretending that the teachers have caused this problem. The dispute could have been settled by negotiation, with the minister playing a constructive role. Instead, he chose to sit on the sidelines issuing threats— having, I suspect, already decided to abolish the SJNC and to bring the teachers to heel. Again, we are reminded that in education, as in many other areas, new Labour is taking forward the old Conservative agenda. The minister is treading a well-worn path—a path that has seen this country slide even further down the international education league tables. Teachers are not shirkers who demand more pay for less work. Most are committed professionals, who strive to educate their charges in the face of immense social and economic challenges. The teaching profession and the education system are indivisible. We cannot attack one without hurting the other. The minister, like his predecessors, is severely damaging our education system by his incessant and unjustified attacks on those who deliver the service. That is to the potential detriment of those about whom we should care most—our children and young people. I urge members to support this motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "The minister explained last week why he was asking an independent committee to consider teachers' pay and conditions. Maybe we need more Scottish history taught, not just in schools, as some members propose, but to the minister and his colleagues. Perhaps Murray Tosh could help to set that up for us.

The minister's script could have been lifted from the Tory archives. This is a rerun of what happened in March 1986 when Malcolm Rifkind, then Secretary of State for Scotland, was desperately looking for a way to end the teachers' dispute. He announced an independent inquiry and the Main committee was set up. It took seven years for the Tories to get into that mess, yet here we are in the same position in the first term of the Scottish Parliament.

Unlike my colleague Nicola Sturgeon, I was not at school during the last series of teachers' strikes, but I do remember them and the damage that they did to our young people, then and since. There was two years and six months of disruption—work to rule, missed lessons and no extra-curricular activities. Lloyd Quinan has mentioned the damage to sport. The problem was, then as now, that teachers' pay had been seriously eroded, with those in power unwilling to make a straightforward settlement, and there was a decent pay rise only for the lucky ones. No promoted posts this time, though, but their removal so that savings can be used to fund the present offer. Now, as then, there is a strong case for a pay rise for teachers and there is also a genuine need for reform. Those two issues need not be too closely linked, unless the minister intends to use pay as a means to blackmail the teaching profession over conditions.

On reform, why is there constant harping on about teachers having to be willing to change? As others have said today, teachers have for many years been receptive to change. The minister tells teachers that they must put children first. How patronising. He overlooks the fact that the vast majority of teachers put children first every time that they teach a lesson.

When the millennium review was reported, the EIS general secretary said:

\"I believe strongly that the outcome is a very positive one for schools and teachers and offers now the opportunity for substantial improvement in the delivery of education and for improved salaries for teachers.\"

No, teachers are not opposed to change; teachers are opposed to erosion of their pay and conditions and the imposition of ill-considered change.

For reasons known only to himself the minister is being hostile to the teachers, as he never was to his own professional counterparts when he was health minister. Already his approach is bearing fruit. He has achieved more than Mrs Liddell did during her short time as teacher and nat-basher general. Even she did not manage to turn a confirmed 98 per cent of the teaching profession against her.

I echo Nicola Sturgeon's call for honesty in this debate. Labour is spending proportionately less on education than the Tories. That is confirmed by a letter from the House of Commons library, dated 21 September. It states that

\"although spending on education is planned to increase as a proportion of GDP during the Comprehensive Spending Review period, it will not return to the levels recorded in the early 1990s\".

The minister should stop pretending that the teachers have caused this problem. The dispute could have been settled by negotiation, with the minister playing a constructive role. Instead, he chose to sit on the sidelines issuing threats— having, I suspect, already decided to abolish the SJNC and to bring the teachers to heel. Again, we are reminded that in education, as in many other areas, new Labour is taking forward the old Conservative agenda. The minister is treading a well-worn path—a path that has seen this country slide even further down the international education league tables.

Teachers are not shirkers who demand more pay for less work. Most are committed professionals, who strive to educate their charges in the face of immense social and economic challenges. The teaching profession and the education system are indivisible. We cannot attack one without hurting the other. The minister, like his predecessors, is severely damaging our education system by his incessant and unjustified attacks on those who deliver the service. That is to the potential detriment of those about whom we should care most—our children and young people. I urge members to support this motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2108E50P256C708807", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macintosh, Ken", "ID": 2108, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Eastwood" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ken Macintosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Kenneth Macintosh (Eastwood) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 190.0, "ContributionID": 708807, "EditedText": "As Malcolm Chisholm said, the SNP identifies the problem here as one of a lack of resources, the solution being to throw money at it. As usual, the SNP cannot explain where that money should come from.", "EditedTextHTML": "As Malcolm Chisholm said, the SNP identifies the problem here as one of a lack of resources, the solution being to throw money at it. As usual, the SNP cannot explain where that money should come from.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2108E50P256C708811", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macintosh, Ken", "ID": 2108, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Eastwood" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ken Macintosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Macintosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 198.0, "ContributionID": 708811, "EditedText": "I hesitate to speak on behalf of ministers, but I think that Sam has already answered the question. There are teachers on the committee. The McCrone committee has been set up to solve a particular difficulty, but the fundamental problem is not one of resources. There is a lack of appreciation of that—certainly in the SNP's motion, which concentrates on resources. Teachers have the task not only of educating children and building their self-confidence, but of coping with behaviour that is often unruly and disruptive, and maintaining discipline. That can be very draining, but it is not a problem that can be framed in terms of resources. In her speech, Nicola Sturgeon suggested that one solution to the current difficulty might be to have the Education, Culture and Sport Committee take charge of teachers' pay negotiations. That is to misunderstand fundamentally the process of collective bargaining. As a member of the committee, I want to distance myself—and the committee—from Nicola's suggestion. Teachers would not appreciate their commitment, their future and their pay becoming a political football. That is what would happen if teachers' pay became a matter for the committee.", "EditedTextHTML": "I hesitate to speak on behalf of ministers, but I think that Sam has already answered the question. There are teachers on the committee.

The McCrone committee has been set up to solve a particular difficulty, but the fundamental problem is not one of resources. There is a lack of appreciation of that—certainly in the SNP's motion, which concentrates on resources. Teachers have the task not only of educating children and building their self-confidence, but of coping with behaviour that is often unruly and disruptive, and maintaining discipline. That can be very draining, but it is not a problem that can be framed in terms of resources.

In her speech, Nicola Sturgeon suggested that one solution to the current difficulty might be to have the Education, Culture and Sport Committee take charge of teachers' pay negotiations. That is to misunderstand fundamentally the process of collective bargaining. As a member of the

committee, I want to distance myself—and the committee—from Nicola's suggestion. Teachers would not appreciate their commitment, their future and their pay becoming a political football. That is what would happen if teachers' pay became a matter for the committee.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2108E50P256C708818", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macintosh, Ken", "ID": 2108, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Eastwood" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ken Macintosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Macintosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 212.0, "ContributionID": 708818, "EditedText": "What is not founded in fact? That you have not released press statements twice during committees?", "EditedTextHTML": "What is not founded in fact? That you have not released press statements twice during committees?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2108E50P256C708820", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macintosh, Ken", "ID": 2108, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Eastwood" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ken Macintosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Macintosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 216.0, "ContributionID": 708820, "EditedText": "I am sorry, Presiding Officer. You are quite right.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry, Presiding Officer. You are quite right.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2108E50P256C708825", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macintosh, Ken", "ID": 2108, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Eastwood" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ken Macintosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Macintosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 226.0, "ContributionID": 708825, "EditedText": "I am not abusing anybody.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am not abusing anybody.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2010E221P512C708828", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Paterson, Gil", "ID": 2010, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Gil Paterson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Gil Paterson (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 233.0, "ContributionID": 708828, "EditedText": "I would like to examine not pay, but the importance of national conditions of service for teachers. For years, the Scottish joint negotiating committee has been responsible for ensuring that, in all areas of Scotland, children are taught by teachers working under the same pay and conditions. It has driven up standards of education and was responsible for delivering a national maximum for class sizes. Abandoning national conditions of employment will be detrimental in the classroom and will create divisions between schools in rich local authorities and those in the poorer ones. If the committee is such a bad thing, how was it able to deliver in Scotland something that could not be delivered in England—the maximum class size? How did it manage to deliver a reduction in class sizes against a background of Thatcher's savage cuts? If the committee is abolished, when will the minister legislate to ensure that the current maximum composite class size of 25, the current maximum of 33 in the upper primaries and in secondary school classes and the limit of 20 in practical classes will be maintained? Will that be left to local bargaining? Will Labour preside over rising class sizes? The committee protected children from educational disruption. A national agreement ensured that supply teachers are drafted in after three days if a class teacher is absent. Without a national agreement on that, there will be variations between local authorities. The quality of education that a child receives will be dependent on the wealth of the child's local authority area. Without a national agreement, it will not be possible to drive standards higher across the country and poor authorities will lag behind.", "EditedTextHTML": "I would like to examine not pay, but the importance of national conditions of service for teachers. For years, the Scottish joint negotiating committee has been responsible for ensuring that, in all areas of Scotland, children are taught by teachers working under the same pay and conditions. It has driven up standards of education and was responsible for delivering a national maximum for class sizes. Abandoning national conditions of employment will be detrimental in the classroom and will create divisions between schools in rich local authorities and those in the poorer ones.

If the committee is such a bad thing, how was it able to deliver in Scotland something that could not be delivered in England—the maximum class size? How did it manage to deliver a reduction in class sizes against a background of Thatcher's savage cuts? If the committee is abolished, when will the minister legislate to ensure that the current maximum composite class size of 25, the current maximum of 33 in the upper primaries and in secondary school classes and the limit of 20 in practical classes will be maintained? Will that be left to local bargaining? Will Labour preside over rising class sizes?

The committee protected children from educational disruption. A national agreement ensured that supply teachers are drafted in after three days if a class teacher is absent. Without a national agreement on that, there will be variations between local authorities. The quality of education that a child receives will be dependent on the wealth of the child's local authority area. Without a national agreement, it will not be possible to drive standards higher across the country and poor authorities will lag behind.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2044E178P334C708831", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jenkins, Ian", "ID": 2044, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ian Jenkins", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ian Jenkins (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 240.0, "ContributionID": 708831, "EditedText": "I should declare that I am a member of the Educational Institute of Scotland. As a former principal teacher, I was warmed by Murray Tosh's remarks but, when Maureen talked about all the marking, I shivered and thought that perhaps I was better off out of teaching—I do not always think that. A lot of what I wanted to say has been said. I would like to associate myself with what Nicola Sturgeon said about the disastrous package that was offered to the teachers, which cut out the heart of the management structure. I have said that before and I do not want to repeat myself. However, if the minister has not heard that message clearly, something is wrong. I do not assume that he has not heard the message; in fact, I am sure that he has. The dispute is not primarily about pay; it is about all the proposed changes of conditions that accompany the pay negotiation. I believe that the whole perspective must be changed. The SJNC, which Nicola and others think is such a wonderful body, had better get it right for this year and, if the minister can, he had better do something to help it to do so. We must have a year in which the teachers get something like 4 per cent. They would love 5 per cent and they will not take 3 per cent, so let us give them 4 per cent straight away. Sam will give them money. The McCrone committee will then have time to get on with its inquiry. I would have been pleased if a practising teacher had been on the committee, although that would have been a token gesture. One practising teacher could not tell the committee all it needed to know. It is important that the committee exists, whoever is on it. It will be independent and rigorous; it will think and take time. It will not have just two meetings—one before Christmas and one after—and make sweeping decisions.", "EditedTextHTML": "I should declare that I am a member of the Educational Institute of Scotland. As a former principal teacher, I was warmed by Murray Tosh's remarks but, when Maureen talked about all the marking, I shivered and thought that perhaps I was better off out of teaching—I do not always think that.

A lot of what I wanted to say has been said. I would like to associate myself with what Nicola Sturgeon said about the disastrous package that was offered to the teachers, which cut out the heart of the management structure. I have said that before and I do not want to repeat myself. However, if the minister has not heard that message clearly, something is wrong. I do not assume that he has not heard the message; in fact, I am sure that he has.

The dispute is not primarily about pay; it is about all the proposed changes of conditions that accompany the pay negotiation. I believe that the whole perspective must be changed. The SJNC, which Nicola and others think is such a wonderful body, had better get it right for this year and, if the minister can, he had better do something to help it

to do so. We must have a year in which the teachers get something like 4 per cent. They would love 5 per cent and they will not take 3 per cent, so let us give them 4 per cent straight away. Sam will give them money. The McCrone committee will then have time to get on with its inquiry.

I would have been pleased if a practising teacher had been on the committee, although that would have been a token gesture. One practising teacher could not tell the committee all it needed to know. It is important that the committee exists, whoever is on it. It will be independent and rigorous; it will think and take time. It will not have just two meetings—one before Christmas and one after—and make sweeping decisions.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C708832", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 242.0, "ContributionID": 708832, "EditedText": "There is a difference between the perspectives and interests of head teachers and those of classroom teachers. The danger is that the head teacher's voice will be taken as the voice of teachers in general. Does Mr Jenkins accept that, without a practising teacher, the committee will be limited in its information and perspectives?", "EditedTextHTML": "There is a difference between the perspectives and interests of head teachers and those of classroom teachers. The danger is that the head teacher's voice will be taken as the voice of teachers in general. Does Mr Jenkins accept that, without a practising teacher, the committee will be limited in its information and perspectives?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2118E157P454C708834", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Quinan, Mr Lloyd", "ID": 2118, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lloyd Quinan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Quinan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 246.0, "ContributionID": 708834, "EditedText": "As Mr Jenkins does not want only one teacher on the committee of inquiry, does he accept that a representative of one of the teaching unions should be able to speak for teachers? Will he urge the minister to contact the EIS and the Scottish Secondary Teachers Association immediately and request that they are represented on the committee?", "EditedTextHTML": "As Mr Jenkins does not want only one teacher on the committee of inquiry, does he accept that a representative of one of the teaching unions should be able to speak for teachers? Will he urge the minister to contact the EIS and the Scottish Secondary Teachers Association immediately and request that they are represented on the committee?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2044E178P334C708835", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jenkins, Ian", "ID": 2044, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ian Jenkins", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ian Jenkins: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 248.0, "ContributionID": 708835, "EditedText": "I do not think that one member of the EIS could speak for all teachers, either. Once the committee is framed—and I would have preferred it to have been framed differently—the whole point must be that it takes evidence. Those listening to this debate will know what teachers think about the previous package—they must know that it will be rejected. The committee must do its job. I say to the minister that I hope—", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not think that one member of the EIS could speak for all teachers, either. Once the committee is framed—and I would have preferred it to have been framed differently—the whole point must be that it takes evidence. Those listening to this debate will know what teachers think about the previous package—they must know that it will be rejected. The committee must do its job. I say to the minister that I hope—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C708836", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Monteith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 250.0, "ContributionID": 708836, "EditedText": "Will Mr Jenkins give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr Jenkins give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2044E178P334C708838", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jenkins, Ian", "ID": 2044, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ian Jenkins", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ian Jenkins: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 254.0, "ContributionID": 708838, "EditedText": "I hope that everything that Mr Galbraith said about working together as teachers is correct. I believe that it will be. I promise him my whole-hearted support as long as he keeps delivering. When he stops delivering, my support goes out the window. A settlement must be reached for this year. The McCrone committee must have time to do its job properly. If it does not deliver, I will be out of here.", "EditedTextHTML": "I hope that everything that Mr Galbraith said about working together as teachers is correct. I believe that it will be. I promise him my whole-hearted support as long as he keeps delivering. When he stops delivering, my support goes out the window. A settlement must be reached for this year. The McCrone committee must have time to do its job properly. If it does not deliver, I will be out of here.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2167E79P155C708851", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Peacock, Peter", "ID": 2167, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Peter Peacock", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Peter Peacock: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 283.0, "ContributionID": 708851, "EditedText": "Margo MacDonald seems to misunderstand the central point of what we are trying to achieve. We are trying to ensure that, for the first time in decades, teachers are given proper recognition for the role that they perform. That is precisely what Sam Galbraith and I want to happen in Scotland. We want to raise the status of teachers so that they feel rewarded for their work and so that all the tasks that they undertake are properly recognised by the wider community. I think that it was Malcolm Chisholm who— perhaps more appropriately than anyone else— picked up a point that Lloyd Quinan had missed. Malcolm Chisholm made it clear that COSLA had made the offer and that the impact of Sam Galbraith's proposal to establish the committee of inquiry was to put that offer to one side. All the questions about composite classes and the professional leader grade are all on one side. The committee of inquiry, as Maureen Macmillan indicated, has, quite properly, the opportunity of a generation to examine the way in which we can improve the status of teachers. That is the purpose of the inquiry.", "EditedTextHTML": "Margo MacDonald seems to misunderstand the central point of what we are trying to achieve. We are trying to ensure that, for the first time in decades, teachers are given proper recognition for the role that they perform. That is precisely what Sam Galbraith and I want to happen in Scotland. We want to raise the status of teachers so that they feel rewarded for their work and so that all the tasks that they undertake are properly recognised by the wider community.

I think that it was Malcolm Chisholm who— perhaps more appropriately than anyone else— picked up a point that Lloyd Quinan had missed. Malcolm Chisholm made it clear that COSLA had made the offer and that the impact of Sam Galbraith's proposal to establish the committee of inquiry was to put that offer to one side. All the questions about composite classes and the professional leader grade are all on one side. The committee of inquiry, as Maureen Macmillan indicated, has, quite properly, the opportunity of a generation to examine the way in which we can improve the status of teachers. That is the purpose of the inquiry.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2167E79P155C708853", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Peacock, Peter", "ID": 2167, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Peter Peacock", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Peter Peacock: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 287.0, "ContributionID": 708853, "EditedText": "No, I need to get on.Nicola raised many points in today's debate. She has displayed the confusion at the centre of the SNP's policy on the SJNC. The motion is logically inconsistent; it calls for a retention of the SJNC, but also wants to refer the matter to the Education, Culture and Sport Committee. As Ken Macintosh said, it would be inappropriate for a committee of the Parliament to become involved in an industrial dispute. The SNP says that it wants to keep the SJNC and that it wants the minister to intervene. It cannot have it all ways. We are trying to find a way through the arguments to provide a sensible solution for the future. We have been asked why we have announced that we want to remove the statutory basis of the SJNC. As Sam Galbraith said, anyone who has examined the outcomes of the SJNC negotiations over many years will know that the SJNC has failed to deliver for teachers. The situation described by Margo MacDonald and others is the one that we have now.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I need to get on.

Nicola raised many points in today's debate. She has displayed the confusion at the centre of the SNP's policy on the SJNC. The motion is logically inconsistent; it calls for a retention of the SJNC, but also wants to refer the matter to the Education, Culture and Sport Committee. As Ken Macintosh said, it would be inappropriate for a committee of the Parliament to become involved in an industrial dispute.

The SNP says that it wants to keep the SJNC and that it wants the minister to intervene. It cannot have it all ways. We are trying to find a way through the arguments to provide a sensible solution for the future. We have been asked why we have announced that we want to remove the statutory basis of the SJNC. As Sam Galbraith said, anyone who has examined the outcomes of the SJNC negotiations over many years will know that the SJNC has failed to deliver for teachers. The situation described by Margo MacDonald and others is the one that we have now.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C708854", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Monteith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 289.0, "ContributionID": 708854, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2167E79P155C708857", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Peacock, Peter", "ID": 2167, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Peter Peacock", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Peter Peacock: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 295.0, "ContributionID": 708857, "EditedText": "That is precisely what the SNP is asking. The question of composite classes—to which the SNP has drawn so much attention—is for the Parliament to determine. I make another point to clear up the confusion about the basis of the SJNC. Half the members of the SJNC believe that it has no future. The employers have lost confidence in the SJNC's ability to continue. It has no future and that is why we are removing it.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is precisely what the SNP is asking. The question of composite classes—to which the SNP has drawn so much attention—is for the Parliament to determine.

I make another point to clear up the confusion about the basis of the SJNC. Half the members of the SJNC believe that it has no future. The employers have lost confidence in the SJNC's ability to continue. It has no future and that is why we are removing it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2167E79P155C708859", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Peacock, Peter", "ID": 2167, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Peter Peacock", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Peter Peacock: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 299.0, "ContributionID": 708859, "EditedText": "No, I will not give way on that point. I welcome the generous offer that Brian Monteith made for the Conservatives to mediate in the dispute. I am not sure how convinced the parties to the dispute will be about the Conservatives' credentials, given their record in the 1980s and 1990s. I suspect that I know which way the teachers would have liked Brian to swing during that period. He said that arbitration between the different sides in the dispute should be invited, but it would require both sides in the SJNC to ask for arbitration, and it is clear that the employers do not want it under current circumstances. The negotiations have come to a conclusion; they have not been satisfactory and we want to move on from that.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I will not give way on that point.

I welcome the generous offer that Brian Monteith made for the Conservatives to mediate in the dispute. I am not sure how convinced the parties to the dispute will be about the Conservatives' credentials, given their record in the 1980s and 1990s. I suspect that I know which way the teachers would have liked Brian to swing during that period. He said that arbitration between the different sides in the dispute should be invited, but it would require both sides in the SJNC to ask for arbitration, and it is clear that the employers do not want it under current circumstances. The negotiations have come to a conclusion; they have not been satisfactory and we want to move on from that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708867", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26878, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 315.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 315.0, "ID": 26878, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 316.0, "ContributionID": 708867, "EditedText": "The next item of business is the consideration of business motion S1M-175, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, setting out the revised business programme. Any member wishing to speak on this matter should press their button.", "EditedTextHTML": "The next item of business is the consideration of business motion S1M-175, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, setting out the revised business programme. Any member wishing to speak on this matter should press their button.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708876", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Beattie Media", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26879, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 324.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 324.0, "ID": 26879, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 336.0, "ContributionID": 708876, "EditedText": "No, not during a statement.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, not during a statement.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708869", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26878, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 315.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 315.0, "ID": 26878, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 321.0, "ContributionID": 708869, "EditedText": "No one has asked to speak against the motion. The question is, that business motion S1M-175 be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "No one has asked to speak against the motion. The question is, that business motion S1M-175 be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "C708870", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26878, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 315.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 315.0, "ID": 26878, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 323.0, "ContributionID": 708870, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C708872", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Beattie Media", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26879, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 324.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 324.0, "ID": 26879, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister (Donald Dewar): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 328.0, "ContributionID": 708872, "EditedText": "With permission, Sir David, I would like to make a statement about Beattie Media and the activities of professional lobbying firms. I learned last Friday, 24 September, that there was to be a report in The Observer of the following Sunday about the activities of the public relations firm Beattie Media. The report duly appeared. It has been widely read and a matter of much comment. The report was based on a conversation between two employees of Beattie Media and an employee of The Observer who was posing as a representative of clients who were seeking public relations and lobbying assistance. I think it is fair to describe the exchange as being essentially a sales pitch by Beattie Media. The circumstances raise sharply ethical issues. But my particular concern, which I will deal with in this statement, is the claims that were apparently made during the meeting about the conduct of Scottish ministers. Although I was aware from newspaper reports of the principal allegations, the full text of the transcript was not made available to me until late yesterday afternoon. I am grateful to you, Sir David, for agreeing at short notice to allow me to make this statement. The first major matter relating to the conduct of ministers concerns an invitation to Sam Galbraith as sports minister to attend the Glasgow Rangers v Beitar Jerusalem game on 1 October 1998. The representatives of Beattie Media claim privileged access to the minister and his diary and the ability to influence his thinking on policy matters. They are quoted as saying: \"We took the Sports Minister along to the Rangers game . . . we did it . . . we started the debate\". The Scottish Premier League issued a straightforward invitation to the minister to attend that match. There is no reason whatever why the sports minister should not have attended a football game, and indeed it would be extraordinary if he did not discuss the future of the game with his hosts. I am satisfied that there was no impropriety involved. Any involvement by Beattie Media had no influence on the handling of that invitation. Secondly, Beattie Media representatives are quoted as saying: \"Yeah, we landed a major project\"—Laughter. I am quoting accurately. I might not be very good at the slang, but I am doing my best to pronounce it correctly. Beattie Media representatives are quoted as saying, \"Yeah\". Laughter.", "EditedTextHTML": "With permission, Sir David, I would like to make a statement about Beattie Media and the activities of professional lobbying firms.

I learned last Friday, 24 September, that there was to be a report in The Observer of the following Sunday about the activities of the public relations firm Beattie Media. The report duly appeared. It has been widely read and a matter of much comment.

The report was based on a conversation between two employees of Beattie Media and an employee of The Observer who was posing as a representative of clients who were seeking public relations and lobbying assistance. I think it is fair to describe the exchange as being essentially a sales pitch by Beattie Media. The circumstances raise sharply ethical issues. But my particular concern, which I will deal with in this statement, is the claims that were apparently made during the meeting about the conduct of Scottish ministers.

Although I was aware from newspaper reports of the principal allegations, the full text of the transcript was not made available to me until late yesterday afternoon. I am grateful to you, Sir David, for agreeing at short notice to allow me to make this statement.

The first major matter relating to the conduct of ministers concerns an invitation to Sam Galbraith as sports minister to attend the Glasgow Rangers v Beitar Jerusalem game on 1 October 1998. The representatives of Beattie Media claim privileged access to the minister and his diary and the ability to influence his thinking on policy matters. They are quoted as saying:

\"We took the Sports Minister along to the Rangers game . . . we did it . . . we started the debate\".

The Scottish Premier League issued a straightforward invitation to the minister to attend that match. There is no reason whatever why the sports minister should not have attended a football game, and indeed it would be extraordinary if he did not discuss the future of the game with his hosts. I am satisfied that there was no impropriety involved. Any involvement by Beattie Media had no influence on the handling of that invitation.

Secondly, Beattie Media representatives are quoted as saying:

\"Yeah, we landed a major project\"—

[Laughter.] I am quoting accurately. I might not be very good at the slang, but I am doing my best to pronounce it correctly.

Beattie Media representatives are quoted as saying, \"Yeah\". [Laughter.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C708877", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Beattie Media", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26879, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 324.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 324.0, "ID": 26879, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 338.0, "ContributionID": 708877, "EditedText": "Beattie Media representatives were quoted as saying: \"Yeah, we landed a major project, £60 million tourism project on the banks of Loch Lomond . . . we asked Henry McLeish if he'd come along and make the official presentation. He turned up, made the presentation, had a chat with the principals involved, and then had a very newsworthy photocall with a golden eagle on his arm\". Again, I am entirely satisfied that the invitation to a minister to attend that event was received in the normal way and dealt with appropriately. Indeed, the invitation first came to my own office from the developers. After receiving advice from the department, I suggested that the Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning attend because of his responsibility for tourism. Again, any involvement by Beattie Media had absolutely no bearing on ministers' decisions in that matter. Thirdly, it is suggested that there was a problem with the Loch Lomond project relating to an environmental issue and that Beattie Media \"briefed Jackie Baillie on that as well . . . It was done . . . it wasn't too difficult to achieve\". The truth is that the Deputy Minister for Communities received an invitation from the developers in her capacity as a local member, and she accepted in that capacity. She was not briefed by that company and is not aware of having been instrumental in solving any \"problem\", at least on that occasion. It would have been very odd if the local MSP had not been present at the opening of such a major development in her constituency. Once again, any involvement by Beattie Media had no influence on the minister. The fourth point relates to the Minister for Finance. The suggestion is that Beattie Media has privileged access to him. Again, I quote: \"We speak to Jack regularly. I can pick up the phone to Jack, as Kevin can, as Gordon can.\" Further, it is implied that Beattie Media had accessto the minister's diary and was in a position to commit him to engagements on behalf of its clients. There is an account of a conversation about a particular event with the minister's constituency secretary, who strongly denies Beattie Media's version of events. There is no record of any invitation to the event in question being received by the minister's private office and it does not appear even provisionally in his official diary. Jack McConnell tells me that he has had no discussions with either of the Beattie Media representatives at the meeting since the Scottish elections in May. Finally, the transcript contains a reference to Lord Macdonald of Tradeston, in his capacity as a United Kingdom minister. It is said that he had been \"very, very useful\" in relation to transshipment arrangements at Prestwick airport. Gus Macdonald does not, of course, answer to me for his conduct as a minister. I have, however, spoken to him and he tells me that he had not spoken to Beattie Media about those negotiations. He was totally unaware of its interest and had neither contact with nor knowledge of APCO UK. Gus Macdonald has made it very clear to me that he would strongly resent and refute any allegation that his decision in that case had been in some way influenced by Beattie Media or its associates. I need not deal in any detail with other suggestions that have been made on the back of those reports, most of which are based on nothing more than tittle-tattle. Anyone who has been a minister knows that there is a constant stream of invitations, requests for meetings, petitions and demands for one's attention. Firms organising events often seek a minister's presence. Some of them engage PR companies to help them organise the event and to issue such invitations. Beattie Media is in that business. However, involvement in organising events—procuring golden eagles, for example—does not amount to exerting influence over ministers. I have concluded on the evidence available and in the light of the assurances given to me that there has been no breach of the ministerial code in relation to any of the claims made by representatives of Beattie Media in the meeting reported in The Observer last Sunday. I believe that the ministers concerned have acted properly in every respect and have held to the very high standards laid down in the ministerial code, as I would have expected them to do. I am reinforced in that conclusion by the statement issued by Beattie Media on Sunday 26 September, in which the company said: \"Like all public-relations consultants and journalists, we do know many Scottish politicians, including Government Ministers. However, the reality is that Beattie Media has no influence on the Government at Westminster or Holyrood or individual politicians. I want to make an unreserved public apology therefore to those political figures mentioned in the conversation between the bogus businessman and the two Beattie Media executives.\" It was reported on page 2 of The Scotsman on Wednesday 29 September that an investigation into the incident had concluded that the Beattie Media representatives had been guilty of \"overenthusiasm\". Others might choose very different words, or find something to say about the way in which they came to be uttered. Clearly, however, the firm does not now maintain that there is substance to the comments. Beattie Media's full apology allows us to draw a line under this particular part of a very unfortunate business. I believe, however, that the matter should not end there. However baseless the allegations, the very fact that claims of that sort have been made must raise serious concerns in the public mind. In the light of those events, I have asked my officials to investigate the use of public relations and professional lobbying organisations by all the Scottish public bodies for which we have responsibility. I want to know the full details of the contacts and contracts involved, and I will want to ensure that there can be no question of impropriety, conflict of interest or any other grounds for public concern. I am determined to take every practical measure to ensure that abuse does not occur in future. It is important that the Standards Committee should take forward its work to put in place a code of conduct for MSPs, building on the work done by the consultative steering group. I encourage the committee to look with care and in depth at any effective safeguards that can be introduced to govern the activities of professional lobbying firms and their contact with members of the Parliament. The public will expect their elected representatives to take the issue very seriously. The Scottish ministerial code demands, and I expect, that ministers should behave according to the highest standards of constitutional and personal conduct; should account to Parliament, and be held to account, for the policies, decisions and actions that they take; should protect the integrity of public life; and should adhere at all times to the requirements that the Parliament itself lays down. All the ministers in my Administration are fully aware of the requirements of the code and are committed to maintaining its standards. This has been an unpleasant business, which has attracted much notice. It is clear that the ministers named have not been at fault. I hope that members in all parts of the chamber will work together to achieve the democratic politics that we seek: politics that is open and accessible but also, to the best of our ability, proof against abuse.", "EditedTextHTML": "Beattie Media representatives were quoted as saying:

\"Yeah, we landed a major project, £60 million tourism project on the banks of Loch Lomond . . . we asked Henry McLeish if he'd come along and make the official presentation. He turned up, made the presentation, had a chat with the principals involved, and then had a very newsworthy photocall with a golden eagle on his arm\".

Again, I am entirely satisfied that the invitation to a minister to attend that event was received in the normal way and dealt with appropriately. Indeed, the invitation first came to my own office from the developers. After receiving advice from the department, I suggested that the Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning attend because of his responsibility for tourism. Again, any involvement by Beattie Media had absolutely no bearing on ministers' decisions in that matter.

Thirdly, it is suggested that there was a problem with the Loch Lomond project relating to an environmental issue and that Beattie Media

\"briefed Jackie Baillie on that as well . . . It was done . . . it wasn't too difficult to achieve\".

The truth is that the Deputy Minister for Communities received an invitation from the developers in her capacity as a local member, and she accepted in that capacity. She was not briefed by that company and is not aware of having been instrumental in solving any \"problem\", at least on that occasion. It would have been very odd if the local MSP had not been present at the opening of such a major development in her constituency. Once again, any involvement by Beattie Media had no influence on the minister.

The fourth point relates to the Minister for Finance. The suggestion is that Beattie Media has privileged access to him. Again, I quote:

\"We speak to Jack regularly. I can pick up the phone to Jack, as Kevin can, as Gordon can.\"

Further, it is implied that Beattie Media had access

to the minister's diary and was in a position to commit him to engagements on behalf of its clients. There is an account of a conversation about a particular event with the minister's constituency secretary, who strongly denies Beattie Media's version of events.

There is no record of any invitation to the event in question being received by the minister's private office and it does not appear even provisionally in his official diary.

Jack McConnell tells me that he has had no discussions with either of the Beattie Media representatives at the meeting since the Scottish elections in May.

Finally, the transcript contains a reference to Lord Macdonald of Tradeston, in his capacity as a United Kingdom minister. It is said that he had been \"very, very useful\" in relation to transshipment arrangements at Prestwick airport. Gus Macdonald does not, of course, answer to me for his conduct as a minister. I have, however, spoken to him and he tells me that he had not spoken to Beattie Media about those negotiations. He was totally unaware of its interest and had neither contact with nor knowledge of APCO UK. Gus Macdonald has made it very clear to me that he would strongly resent and refute any allegation that his decision in that case had been in some way influenced by Beattie Media or its associates.

I need not deal in any detail with other suggestions that have been made on the back of those reports, most of which are based on nothing more than tittle-tattle. Anyone who has been a minister knows that there is a constant stream of invitations, requests for meetings, petitions and demands for one's attention. Firms organising events often seek a minister's presence. Some of them engage PR companies to help them organise the event and to issue such invitations. Beattie Media is in that business. However, involvement in organising events—procuring golden eagles, for example—does not amount to exerting influence over ministers.

I have concluded on the evidence available and in the light of the assurances given to me that there has been no breach of the ministerial code in relation to any of the claims made by representatives of Beattie Media in the meeting reported in The Observer last Sunday. I believe that the ministers concerned have acted properly in every respect and have held to the very high standards laid down in the ministerial code, as I would have expected them to do.

I am reinforced in that conclusion by the statement issued by Beattie Media on Sunday 26 September, in which the company said:

\"Like all public-relations consultants and journalists, we do know many Scottish politicians, including Government

Ministers. However, the reality is that Beattie Media has no influence on the Government at Westminster or Holyrood or individual politicians.

I want to make an unreserved public apology therefore to those political figures mentioned in the conversation between the bogus businessman and the two Beattie Media executives.\"

It was reported on page 2 of The Scotsman on Wednesday 29 September that an investigation into the incident had concluded that the Beattie Media representatives had been guilty of \"overenthusiasm\". Others might choose very different words, or find something to say about the way in which they came to be uttered. Clearly, however, the firm does not now maintain that there is substance to the comments. Beattie Media's full apology allows us to draw a line under this particular part of a very unfortunate business.

I believe, however, that the matter should not end there. However baseless the allegations, the very fact that claims of that sort have been made must raise serious concerns in the public mind.

In the light of those events, I have asked my officials to investigate the use of public relations and professional lobbying organisations by all the Scottish public bodies for which we have responsibility. I want to know the full details of the contacts and contracts involved, and I will want to ensure that there can be no question of impropriety, conflict of interest or any other grounds for public concern. I am determined to take every practical measure to ensure that abuse does not occur in future.

It is important that the Standards Committee should take forward its work to put in place a code of conduct for MSPs, building on the work done by the consultative steering group. I encourage the committee to look with care and in depth at any effective safeguards that can be introduced to govern the activities of professional lobbying firms and their contact with members of the Parliament. The public will expect their elected representatives to take the issue very seriously.

The Scottish ministerial code demands, and I expect, that ministers should behave according to the highest standards of constitutional and personal conduct; should account to Parliament, and be held to account, for the policies, decisions and actions that they take; should protect the integrity of public life; and should adhere at all times to the requirements that the Parliament itself lays down. All the ministers in my Administration are fully aware of the requirements of the code and are committed to maintaining its standards.

This has been an unpleasant business, which has attracted much notice. It is clear that the ministers named have not been at fault. I hope that members in all parts of the chamber will work together to achieve the democratic politics that we

seek: politics that is open and accessible but also, to the best of our ability, proof against abuse.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C708878", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Beattie Media", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26879, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 324.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 324.0, "ID": 26879, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Alex Salmond (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 340.0, "ContributionID": 708878, "EditedText": "I welcome both the Executive's statement, a copy of which I received in advance, and the announcement of an Executive inquiry into the role of lobbying organisations and PR firms as they affect Executive ministers. However, am I right in interpreting from his statement that the First Minister is withdrawing his support for a specific inquiry to be carried out by the Standards Committee into the allegations? It would be surprising if that were now his position, as Monday's The Express and Tuesday's The Scotsman have reported. Does not he agree that it would be surprising if he took an apology from Beattie Media—a company that he says tells untruths—as ground for saying that a line should now be drawn under that aspect of the matter? Does not he accept that the Standards Committee has a role in inquiring into the allegations to see whether they are founded? It would be wrong to condemn anyone before such an inquiry. However, would not it also be wrong to exonerate people before such an inquiry took place? The First Minister says that the ministerial code has not been breached. That would not be surprising as the word \"lobbying\" appears nowhere in the code. Is not it the case that the ministerial code says that it is improper for ministers to accept honours from foreign Governments, but makes no mention of lobbying organisations in Scotland? In other words, although the code says that it would be wrong for a minister to accept the Légion d'honneur, it gives no guidance about issues such as hospitality from lobbying companies. Does the First Minister accept that the ministerial code is defective in that respect and will he consider changes to the code, which could then be submitted to the Standards Committee? If the First Minister supports an investigation by the Standards Committee into the specific allegations, will he furnish that committee with copies of the ministerial diaries that he has inspected? Furthermore, on a matter of enormous importance to which he has referred over the past few days, does he accept that evidence to such a committee should be heard in public, not in private?", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome both the Executive's statement, a copy of which I received in advance, and the announcement of an Executive inquiry into the role of lobbying organisations and PR firms as they affect Executive ministers.

However, am I right in interpreting from his statement that the First Minister is withdrawing his support for a specific inquiry to be carried out by the Standards Committee into the allegations? It would be surprising if that were now his position, as Monday's The Express and Tuesday's The Scotsman have reported. Does not he agree that it would be surprising if he took an apology from Beattie Media—a company that he says tells untruths—as ground for saying that a line should now be drawn under that aspect of the matter? Does not he accept that the Standards Committee has a role in inquiring into the allegations to see whether they are founded?

It would be wrong to condemn anyone before such an inquiry. However, would not it also be wrong to exonerate people before such an inquiry took place? The First Minister says that the ministerial code has not been breached. That would not be surprising as the word \"lobbying\" appears nowhere in the code. Is not it the case that the ministerial code says that it is improper for ministers to accept honours from foreign Governments, but makes no mention of lobbying organisations in Scotland? In other words, although the code says that it would be wrong for a minister to accept the Légion d'honneur, it gives no guidance about issues such as hospitality from lobbying companies. Does the First Minister accept that the ministerial code is defective in that respect and will he consider changes to the code, which could then be submitted to the Standards Committee?

If the First Minister supports an investigation by the Standards Committee into the specific allegations, will he furnish that committee with copies of the ministerial diaries that he has inspected? Furthermore, on a matter of enormous importance to which he has referred over the past few days, does he accept that evidence to such a committee should be heard in public, not in private?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C708879", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Beattie Media", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26879, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 324.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 324.0, "ID": 26879, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 342.0, "ContributionID": 708879, "EditedText": "I welcome very much Alex Salmond's suggestion that we should not jump to conclusions. I hope that that message will remain vividly in the minds of some of his colleagues. I have experienced what has perhaps been the difficulty of listening to some of the broadcasts of recent days—but enough of that. I am of course interested in Alex Salmond's comments on the ministerial code of conduct. As he knows, it was published some time ago. It was approved by the Westminster Parliament, as remember. It is no doubt a document of importance and Alex Salmond, as a busy and effective MP at that time, will have examined it. If he is now saying that it is inadequate, we will of course listen to argument and debate—I do not have a closed mind on the matter. However, I would certainly not accept the implication that, in some way, the document was carelessly put together or does not cover most of the ground that it ought to. If Alex Salmond has points to make about that, I am perfectly prepared to examine them. The Standards Committee is certainly entitled to conduct its own affairs, and must take advice from its own advisers, including the clerk, on this matter. I will content myself by saying that, when the committee has taken its decisions on what it wants to do, the Administration will, as we would expect, want to co-operate with it as fully as possible. I repeat that the key is to look forward; to try to put a framework in place within which PR firms can operate, and which does all that can effectively be done—although there are great difficulties about systems—to ensure that there is not abuse in future. This has been an unhappy business. I thought that it was right to come to the chamber at an early stage—yesterday. I have seen some biting criticism of the fact that I did not make a statement yesterday. Yesterday, I had not even seen the full transcripts, never mind anything else. I had had to rely on press reports as to what the charges were. I have now had inquiries made, and on that basis I said what I said this afternoon. I would like to think that what I have said has been welcome to the chamber, irrespective of party loyalties.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome very much Alex Salmond's suggestion that we should not jump to conclusions. I hope that that message will remain vividly in the minds of some of his colleagues. I have experienced what has perhaps been the difficulty of listening to some of the broadcasts of recent days—but enough of that.

I am of course interested in Alex Salmond's comments on the ministerial code of conduct. As he knows, it was published some time ago. It was approved by the Westminster Parliament, as remember. It is no doubt a document of importance and Alex Salmond, as a busy and effective MP at that time, will have examined it. If he is now saying that it is inadequate, we will of course listen to argument and debate—I do not have a closed mind on the matter.

However, I would certainly not accept the implication that, in some way, the document was carelessly put together or does not cover most of the ground that it ought to. If Alex Salmond has points to make about that, I am perfectly prepared to examine them.

The Standards Committee is certainly entitled to conduct its own affairs, and must take advice from its own advisers, including the clerk, on this matter. I will content myself by saying that, when the committee has taken its decisions on what it wants to do, the Administration will, as we would expect, want to co-operate with it as fully as possible.

I repeat that the key is to look forward; to try to put a framework in place within which PR firms can operate, and which does all that can effectively be done—although there are great difficulties about systems—to ensure that there is not abuse in future.

This has been an unhappy business. I thought that it was right to come to the chamber at an early stage—yesterday. I have seen some biting criticism of the fact that I did not make a statement yesterday. Yesterday, I had not even seen the full transcripts, never mind anything else. I had had to rely on press reports as to what the charges were. I have now had inquiries made, and on that basis I said what I said this afternoon.

I would like to think that what I have said has been welcome to the chamber, irrespective of party loyalties.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C708880", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Beattie Media", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26879, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 324.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 324.0, "ID": 26879, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 344.0, "ContributionID": 708880, "EditedText": "I have two further questions: one specific and one general. First, when the First Minister said that the invitation, claimed by Beattie Media, to Mr McConnell did not even appear, even provisionally, in his diary, was he talking just about his ministerial diary, or had the First Minister also made inquiries into Mr McConnell's constituency diary? Is he satisfied that the invitation never existed? Secondly, we all want to look forward: I welcome the Executive examining the whole issue of PR companies and I welcome the Standards Committee examining it. All of us in this Parliament should do that. Can the First Minister tell us whether he supports—if it is the Executive's position—the Standards Committee examining the specific allegations, hearing evidence in public and being provided with the ministers' diaries, so that the matter can be cleared up to public satisfaction?", "EditedTextHTML": "I have two further questions: one specific and one general.

First, when the First Minister said that the invitation, claimed by Beattie Media, to Mr McConnell did not even appear, even provisionally, in his diary, was he talking just about his ministerial diary, or had the First Minister also made inquiries into Mr McConnell's constituency diary? Is he satisfied that the invitation never existed?

Secondly, we all want to look forward: I welcome the Executive examining the whole issue of PR companies and I welcome the Standards Committee examining it. All of us in this Parliament should do that. Can the First Minister tell us whether he supports—if it is the Executive's

position—the Standards Committee examining the specific allegations, hearing evidence in public and being provided with the ministers' diaries, so that the matter can be cleared up to public satisfaction?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C708882", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Beattie Media", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26879, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 324.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 324.0, "ID": 26879, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 348.0, "ContributionID": 708882, "EditedText": "I was seeking his opinion.", "EditedTextHTML": "I was seeking his opinion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C708885", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Beattie Media", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26879, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 324.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 324.0, "ID": 26879, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 354.0, "ContributionID": 708885, "EditedText": "I fear that there is nothingthat I can welcome in what Mr McLetchie said, and I genuinely regret that. The conduct of the Standards Committee's business is for the members of that committee. I do not think that it is helpful for them to have people such as Mr McLetchie standing up in the chamber trying to dictate to them what they should or should not do. I have already said to Mr McLetchie and to the chamber that the Administration will co-operate with the decisions of the Standards Committee. This is a matter for the members of that committee. It is not helpful to turn them into a battering ram with political connotations. Mr McLetchie mentioned the statements that I made while in Bournemouth. At that stage, all I had was an abbreviated account from The Observer of what would be in the story and press speculation. I knew enough to talk to colleagues who were to be named to get their assurances. At that stage, given the pressure that I was under, it was proper that I said that I had had assurances and that I did not believe that the ministerial code had been breached. That was the most that I could have said at the time and I was careful in my phraseology of that statement. I returned to Edinburgh yesterday at about 2 o'clock, which is when I saw the transcripts. It was clear at that stage that if I was to make a fuller and more detailed statement than the three or four lines that I issued when the story first broke, there would have to be some investigation. I therefore looked at the original correspondence and the invitation to the famous football match, which came from the Scottish Premier League and was signed by its chief executive, as well as at the history of the Lomond development invitations. I established that there was not a trace of outside influence from any media or public relations firm in those invitations. That allowed me to come forward today, at the earliest opportunity, with the agreement of the Presiding Officer. I could not have made this statement yesterday. That should be self-evident to anyone who is prepared to consider the circumstances fairly. I accept entirely that the matter will alarm the public, but it is quite clear that ministers have acted properly. It is a matter for ethical debate— which I do not want to enter into at the moment— whether the two employees of Beattie Media acted properly, or whether, as the firm says, they were carried away by over-enthusiasm. It is important to work hard to establish that proper safeguards are, if possible, in place. Mr McLetchie is concerned that mud sticks. I hope that in the days ahead he will remember that it helps not to throw mud, because it does stick.", "EditedTextHTML": "I fear that there is nothing

that I can welcome in what Mr McLetchie said, and I genuinely regret that.

The conduct of the Standards Committee's business is for the members of that committee. I do not think that it is helpful for them to have people such as Mr McLetchie standing up in the chamber trying to dictate to them what they should or should not do.

I have already said to Mr McLetchie and to the chamber that the Administration will co-operate with the decisions of the Standards Committee. This is a matter for the members of that committee. It is not helpful to turn them into a battering ram with political connotations.

Mr McLetchie mentioned the statements that I made while in Bournemouth. At that stage, all I had was an abbreviated account from The Observer of what would be in the story and press speculation. I knew enough to talk to colleagues who were to be named to get their assurances. At that stage, given the pressure that I was under, it was proper that I said that I had had assurances and that I did not believe that the ministerial code had been breached. That was the most that I could have said at the time and I was careful in my phraseology of that statement.

I returned to Edinburgh yesterday at about 2 o'clock, which is when I saw the transcripts. It was clear at that stage that if I was to make a fuller and more detailed statement than the three or four lines that I issued when the story first broke, there would have to be some investigation. I therefore looked at the original correspondence and the invitation to the famous football match, which came from the Scottish Premier League and was signed by its chief executive, as well as at the history of the Lomond development invitations. I established that there was not a trace of outside influence from any media or public relations firm in those invitations. That allowed me to come forward today, at the earliest opportunity, with the agreement of the Presiding Officer. I could not have made this statement yesterday. That should be self-evident to anyone who is prepared to consider the circumstances fairly.

I accept entirely that the matter will alarm the public, but it is quite clear that ministers have acted properly. It is a matter for ethical debate— which I do not want to enter into at the moment— whether the two employees of Beattie Media acted properly, or whether, as the firm says, they were carried away by over-enthusiasm.

It is important to work hard to establish that proper safeguards are, if possible, in place. Mr McLetchie is concerned that mud sticks. I hope that in the days ahead he will remember that it helps not to throw mud, because it does stick.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C708886", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Beattie Media", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26879, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 324.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 324.0, "ID": 26879, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Keith Raffan (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 356.0, "ContributionID": 708886, "EditedText": "I welcome the First Minister's statement. Does he agree that the convener and members of the Standards Committee are accountable solely to this Parliament and not to the First Minister or the Scottish Executive? Will he join me in condemning the ignorant, inaccurate and—quite frankly— malicious report on the front page of today's Daily Record, which suggests the opposite?", "EditedTextHTML": "

I welcome the First Minister's statement. Does he agree that the convener and members of the Standards Committee are accountable solely to this Parliament and not to the First Minister or the Scottish Executive? Will he join me in condemning the ignorant, inaccurate and—quite frankly— malicious report on the front page of today's Daily Record, which suggests the opposite?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C708887", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Beattie Media", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26879, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 324.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 324.0, "ID": 26879, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 358.0, "ContributionID": 708887, "EditedText": "There are so many reports that—Interruption.", "EditedTextHTML": "There are so many reports that—[Interruption.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708904", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26880, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26881, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 380.0, "QuestionHeading": "Islands Needs Allowance", "QuestionHeadingID": 26882, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 383.0, "DisplayOrder": 383.0, "ID": 26882, "ParentID": 26881 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 394.0, "ContributionID": 708904, "EditedText": "Are you deputising?", "EditedTextHTML": "Are you deputising?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "C708900", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26880, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26881, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 380.0, "QuestionHeading": "Islands Needs Allowance", "QuestionHeadingID": 26882, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 383.0, "DisplayOrder": 383.0, "ID": 26882, "ParentID": 26881 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 386.0, "ContributionID": 708900, "EditedText": "Where is he?", "EditedTextHTML": "Where is he?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C708905", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26880, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26881, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 380.0, "QuestionHeading": "Islands Needs Allowance", "QuestionHeadingID": 26882, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 383.0, "DisplayOrder": 383.0, "ID": 26882, "ParentID": 26881 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 396.0, "ContributionID": 708905, "EditedText": "I appear to be.", "EditedTextHTML": "I appear to be.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C708907", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26880, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26881, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 380.0, "QuestionHeading": "Islands Needs Allowance", "QuestionHeadingID": 26882, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 383.0, "DisplayOrder": 383.0, "ID": 26882, "ParentID": 26881 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 400.0, "ContributionID": 708907, "EditedText": "I am grateful to you, Presiding Officer, particularly as you have been so helpful and useful today—sorry, perhaps I should not use the word useful, as it now has other connotations. Laughter. The Executive has been discussing the special islands needs allowance with Argyll and Bute Council for some time. We recognise that the council feels strongly on the issue, which is still the subject of discussion and consideration.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful to you, Presiding Officer, particularly as you have been so helpful and useful today—sorry, perhaps I should not use the word useful, as it now has other connotations. [Laughter.]

The Executive has been discussing the special islands needs allowance with Argyll and Bute Council for some time. We recognise that the council feels strongly on the issue, which is still the subject of discussion and consideration.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C708909", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26880, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26881, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 380.0, "QuestionHeading": "Islands Needs Allowance", "QuestionHeadingID": 26882, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 383.0, "DisplayOrder": 383.0, "ID": 26882, "ParentID": 26881 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 404.0, "ContributionID": 708909, "EditedText": "I certainly recognise the strength of feeling in Argyll and Bute. As Mr Hamilton will recognise, the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities has a substantial say in the distribution of the funds that are available. The special islands needs allowance is top-sliced in the distribution formula and it therefore has an effect on other councils. Obviously we must discuss those matters and consider them carefully. I cannot undertake to make a provisional payment that would prejudge any outcome, but I have no doubt that Argyll and Bute Council will be suitably generous in its appreciation of Mr Hamilton's efforts.", "EditedTextHTML": "I certainly recognise the strength of feeling in Argyll and Bute. As Mr Hamilton will recognise, the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities has a substantial say in the distribution of the funds that are available. The special islands needs allowance is top-sliced in the distribution formula and it therefore has an effect on other councils. Obviously we must discuss those matters and consider them carefully. I cannot undertake to make a provisional payment that would prejudge any outcome, but I have no doubt that Argyll and Bute Council will be suitably generous in its appreciation of Mr Hamilton's efforts.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2033E106P139C708912", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26880, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26881, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 380.0, "QuestionHeading": "Accident and Emergency Units", "QuestionHeadingID": 26883, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 406.0, "DisplayOrder": 406.0, "ID": 26883, "ParentID": 26881 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gray, Iain", "ID": 2033, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Pentlands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Iain Gray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Iain Gray: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 411.0, "ContributionID": 708912, "EditedText": "The NHS has to deal with admissions day in, day out, year in, year out, and there will be times of peak demand. In every NHS service—be it acute services or psychiatric services—there are contingency plans that can be put in place. As I have said, officials are speaking to all health boards and trusts, including the ones to which Mrs Ullrich referred. They will check the existing situation and the plans for the coming months to ensure that contingency plans will allow hospitals to cope with the peak period over Christmas and new year and throughout the winter months.", "EditedTextHTML": "The NHS has to deal with admissions day in, day out, year in, year out, and there will be times of peak demand. In every NHS service—be it acute services or psychiatric services—there are contingency plans that can be put in place. As I have said, officials are speaking to all health boards and trusts, including the ones to which Mrs Ullrich referred. They will check the existing situation and the plans for the coming months to ensure that contingency plans will allow hospitals to cope with the peak period over Christmas and

new year and throughout the winter months.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708914", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26880, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26881, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 380.0, "QuestionHeading": "Accident and Emergency Units", "QuestionHeadingID": 26883, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 406.0, "DisplayOrder": 406.0, "ID": 26883, "ParentID": 26881 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 415.0, "ContributionID": 708914, "EditedText": "Excuse me, Mrs Ullrich.", "EditedTextHTML": "Excuse me, Mrs Ullrich.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1906E278P355C708916", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26880, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26881, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 380.0, "QuestionHeading": "Students Awards Agency", "QuestionHeadingID": 26884, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 417.0, "DisplayOrder": 417.0, "ID": 26884, "ParentID": 26881 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Welsh, Andrew", "ID": 1906, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Angus" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Welsh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Welsh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 420.0, "ContributionID": 708916, "EditedText": "One college was told by the awards agency a week ago that there is a five-week backlog of unopened mail. In the past, it has taken until October or November before such backlogs have been cleared up. Is the minister aware of the enormous impact any delay can have on individual students and their families? Will he take every step to ensure that the backlog is cleared up urgently?", "EditedTextHTML": "One college was told by the awards agency a week ago that there is a five-week backlog of unopened mail. In the past, it has taken until October or November before such backlogs have been cleared up. Is the minister aware of the enormous impact any delay can have on individual students and their families? Will he take every step to ensure that the backlog is cleared up urgently?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2029E47P167C708921", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26880, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26881, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 380.0, "QuestionHeading": "Paisley", "QuestionHeadingID": 26886, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 431.0, "DisplayOrder": 431.0, "ID": 26886, "ParentID": 26881 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Henry, Hugh", "ID": 2029, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Hugh Henry", "SpeakerDisplayName": "5. Hugh Henry (Paisley South) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 432.0, "ContributionID": 708921, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will back the campaign organised by the Paisley Daily Express, \"It pays to be in Paisley\". (S1O-408) The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning (Nicol Stephen): As an MSP from the north-east it seems appropriate for me to say that the Scottish Executive commends the campaign \"It pays to be in Paisley\" as promoting a positive image of Paisley as a place to live, to work, visit and invest in, and as complementing other initiatives being taken to achieve the physical regeneration and economic renewal of the town.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will back the campaign organised by the Paisley Daily Express, \"It pays to be in Paisley\". (S1O-408) The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning (Nicol Stephen): As an MSP from the north-east it seems appropriate for me to say that the Scottish Executive commends the campaign \"It pays to be in Paisley\" as promoting a positive image of Paisley as a place to live, to work, visit and invest in, and as complementing other initiatives being taken to achieve the physical regeneration and economic renewal of the town.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C708924", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26880, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26881, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 380.0, "QuestionHeading": "Local Enterprise Companies", "QuestionHeadingID": 26887, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 438.0, "DisplayOrder": 438.0, "ID": 26887, "ParentID": 26881 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "6. Alex Neil (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 439.0, "ContributionID": 708924, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether local enterprise companies in central Scotland are achieving their performance targets. (S1O-394) The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning (Henry McLeish): The setting and monitoring of performance targets for local enterprise companies is a matter for Scottish Enterprise. I understand from Scottish Enterprise that Enterprise Ayrshire, Forth Valley Enterprise and Lanarkshire Development Agency are on course to achieve their operating targets for 1999-2000. I will ask Scottish Enterprise to provide Alex Neil with more detailed information.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether local enterprise companies in central Scotland are achieving their performance targets. (S1O-394) The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning (Henry McLeish): The setting and monitoring of performance targets for local enterprise companies is a matter for Scottish Enterprise. I understand from Scottish Enterprise that Enterprise Ayrshire, Forth Valley Enterprise and Lanarkshire Development Agency are on course to achieve their operating targets for 1999-2000. I will ask Scottish Enterprise to provide Alex Neil with more detailed information.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1850E185P354C708927", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26880, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26881, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 380.0, "QuestionHeading": "Local Government Funding", "QuestionHeadingID": 26888, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 445.0, "DisplayOrder": 445.0, "ID": 26888, "ParentID": 26881 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Radcliffe, Nora", "ID": 1850, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Gordon" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nora Radcliffe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "7. Nora Radcliffe (Gordon) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 446.0, "ContributionID": 708927, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive how much flexibility local authorities are allowed in respect of the indicative spending guidelines it sets for each authority. (S1O-406) The Minister for Finance (Mr Jack McConnell): I expect all councils to budget within guideline. However, where a council exceeds its guideline I will consider each case on its merits before deciding what action, if any, to take.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive how much flexibility local authorities are allowed in respect of the indicative spending guidelines it sets for each authority. (S1O-406) The Minister for Finance (Mr Jack McConnell): I expect all councils to budget within guideline. However, where a council exceeds its guideline I will consider each case on its merits before deciding what action, if any, to take.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1850E185P354C708928", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26880, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26881, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 380.0, "QuestionHeading": "Local Government Funding", "QuestionHeadingID": 26888, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 445.0, "DisplayOrder": 445.0, "ID": 26888, "ParentID": 26881 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Radcliffe, Nora", "ID": 1850, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Gordon" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nora Radcliffe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nora Radcliffe: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 448.0, "ContributionID": 708928, "EditedText": "In that case, why have historically low-spending councils such as Aberdeenshire and Perth and Kinross had their budgets held at levels close to the grant aided expenditure figure while other councils have been allowed to spend much more than the GAE figure?", "EditedTextHTML": "In that case, why have historically low-spending councils such as Aberdeenshire and Perth and Kinross had their budgets held at levels close to the grant aided expenditure figure while other councils have been allowed to spend much more than the GAE figure?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1882E175P456C708935", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26880, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26881, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 380.0, "QuestionHeading": "East Ayrshire Council", "QuestionHeadingID": 26890, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 463.0, "DisplayOrder": 463.0, "ID": 26890, "ParentID": 26881 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ingram, Adam", "ID": 1882, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Adam Ingram", "SpeakerDisplayName": "9. Mr Adam Ingram (South of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 464.0, "ContributionID": 708935, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what recommendations have been made by the Accounts Commission regarding the financial problems of East Ayrshire Council, and what plans the Executive has to implement those recommendations. (S1O-412) The Presiding Officer: I call Frank Macavity— Laughter. I mean Frank McAveety.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what recommendations have been made by the Accounts Commission regarding the financial problems of East Ayrshire Council, and what plans the Executive has to implement those recommendations. (S1O-412) The Presiding Officer: I call Frank Macavity— [Laughter.] I mean Frank McAveety.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.545228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1996E124P211C708938", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26880, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26881, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 380.0, "QuestionHeading": "East Ayrshire Council", "QuestionHeadingID": 26890, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 463.0, "DisplayOrder": 463.0, "ID": 26890, "ParentID": 26881 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAveety, Mr Frank", "ID": 1996, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Shettleston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Local Government", "SpeakerName": "Frank McAveety", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McAveety: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 470.0, "ContributionID": 708938, "EditedText": "I often sit in the most appropriate fashion for this Parliament—on my bottom. We are aware of concerns raised by the Accounts Commission. This is a local matter, which the local authority, through the establishment of a working group involving elected members and officers, will address. I am pretty certain that East Ayrshire will address the concerns raised by Mr Ingram.", "EditedTextHTML": "I often sit in the most appropriate fashion for this Parliament—on my bottom.

We are aware of concerns raised by the Accounts Commission. This is a local matter, which the local authority, through the establishment of a working group involving elected members and officers, will address. I am pretty certain that East Ayrshire will address the concerns raised by Mr Ingram.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2066E64P88C708941", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26880, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26881, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 380.0, "QuestionHeading": "Fish Farming", "QuestionHeadingID": 26891, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 476.0, "DisplayOrder": 476.0, "ID": 26891, "ParentID": 26881 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McGrigor, Jamie", "ID": 2066, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie McGrigor", "SpeakerDisplayName": "10. Mr Jamie McGrigor (Highlands and Islands) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 477.0, "ContributionID": 708941, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether, in the light of the £9 million aid package on offer to the salmon farming industry, it will consider the provision of support to wild fishery management in the west Highlands to reverse the decline of salmon and sea trout stocks. (S1O-399) The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs (Mr John Home Robertson): We are concerned about the decline in wild salmon and sea trout stocks, so we have established a working group which includes Scottish Natural Heritage and the Scottish Environment Protection Agency as well as salmon fishery interests. I look forward to receiving its recommendations shortly.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether, in the light of the £9 million aid package on offer to the salmon farming industry, it will consider the provision of support to wild fishery management in the west Highlands to reverse the decline of salmon and sea trout stocks. (S1O-399) The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs (Mr John Home Robertson): We are concerned about the decline in wild salmon and sea trout stocks, so we have established a working group which includes Scottish Natural Heritage and the Scottish Environment Protection Agency as well as salmon fishery interests. I look forward to receiving its recommendations shortly.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C708945", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26880, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26881, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 380.0, "QuestionHeading": "Pig Industry", "QuestionHeadingID": 26892, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 483.0, "DisplayOrder": 483.0, "ID": 26892, "ParentID": 26881 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Rural Affairs (Ross Finnie): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 486.0, "ContributionID": 708945, "EditedText": "Competitiveness is a complex issue which the industry itself needs constantly to keep under review, taking account of a range of factors such as input costs, productivity, general efficiency and marketing strategy. For the Executive's part, as announced on 20 September, a review of the industry's costs and burdens in relation to meat hygiene regulations is now under way. The Executive will also continue to work with the industry to promote home-produced pigmeat and pigmeat products that are produced to the highest welfare and feeding standards in Europe.", "EditedTextHTML": "Competitiveness is a complex issue which the industry itself needs constantly to keep under review, taking account of a range of factors such as input costs, productivity, general efficiency and marketing strategy. For the Executive's part, as announced on 20 September, a review of the industry's costs and burdens in relation to meat hygiene regulations is now under way. The Executive will also continue to work with the industry to promote home-produced pigmeat and pigmeat products that are produced to the highest welfare and feeding standards in Europe.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C708948", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26880, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26881, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 380.0, "QuestionHeading": "Sea Transport", "QuestionHeadingID": 26893, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 492.0, "DisplayOrder": 492.0, "ID": 26893, "ParentID": 26881 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "12. Mr Murray Tosh (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 493.0, "ContributionID": 708948, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what proposals it has to review Scotland's strategic transport links by sea. (S1O-402) The First Minister (Donald Dewar): The Scottish Executive takes full account of strategic transport links by sea in developing its transport policies and services for Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what proposals it has to review Scotland's strategic transport links by sea. (S1O-402) The First Minister (Donald Dewar): The Scottish Executive takes full account of strategic transport links by sea in developing its transport policies and services for Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C708950", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26880, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26881, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 380.0, "QuestionHeading": "Sea Transport", "QuestionHeadingID": 26893, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 492.0, "DisplayOrder": 492.0, "ID": 26893, "ParentID": 26881 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 497.0, "ContributionID": 708950, "EditedText": "Which ports are used depends to some extent on the commercial judgment of those who operate the shipping. However, I am anxious for our shipping trade with Europe to develop; I understand that many of the east coast ports are doing rather well at the moment. If the member has some specific concerns about ports in Scotland, he will no doubt write to me with his suggestions, which will be considered.", "EditedTextHTML": "Which ports are used depends to some extent on the commercial judgment of those who operate the shipping. However, I am anxious for our shipping trade with Europe to develop; I understand that many of the east coast ports are doing rather well at the moment. If the member has some specific concerns about ports in Scotland, he will no doubt write to me with his suggestions, which will be considered.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1996E124P211C708956", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26880, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26881, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 380.0, "QuestionHeading": "Late Payment", "QuestionHeadingID": 26895, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 506.0, "DisplayOrder": 506.0, "ID": 26895, "ParentID": 26881 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAveety, Mr Frank", "ID": 1996, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Shettleston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Local Government", "SpeakerName": "Frank McAveety", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McAveety: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 511.0, "ContributionID": 708956, "EditedText": "That was incandescently read.In his letter, Jack indicated that he had misheard the figure given by Mr Gibson as 25 per cent, hence his reference to Perth and Kinross Council. I was troubled and intrigued by the figure of 35 per cent. For the sake of accuracy, I should inform members that two authorities whose performance falls just below that figure are Perth and Kinross Council and Moray Council. Interestingly enough, both were previously SNP led.", "EditedTextHTML": "That was incandescently read.

In his letter, Jack indicated that he had misheard the figure given by Mr Gibson as 25 per cent, hence his reference to Perth and Kinross Council. I was troubled and intrigued by the figure of 35 per cent. For the sake of accuracy, I should inform members that two authorities whose performance falls just below that figure are Perth and Kinross Council and Moray Council. Interestingly enough, both were previously SNP led.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C708959", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26880, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26881, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 380.0, "QuestionHeading": "Driving Test Centres", "QuestionHeadingID": 26896, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 517.0, "DisplayOrder": 517.0, "ID": 26896, "ParentID": 26881 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "15. Bruce Crawford (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 518.0, "ContributionID": 708959, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it has been consulted by or has made representations to the Driving Standards Agency over its programme of review of the viability of driving test centres classified as outstations or occasional centres, given the implications for centres in Scotland. (S1O-395) The Deputy Minister for Highlands and Islands and Gaelic (Mr Alasdair Morrison): The Driving Standards Agency consults local interests, such as driving instructors, local authorities and elected members, on proposals relating to the future of individual driving test centres in Scotland. The Scottish Executive will, of course, also be consulted.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it has been consulted by or has made representations to the Driving Standards Agency over its programme of review of the viability of driving test centres classified as outstations or occasional centres, given the implications for centres in Scotland. (S1O-395) The Deputy Minister for Highlands and Islands and Gaelic (Mr Alasdair Morrison): The Driving Standards Agency consults local interests, such as driving instructors, local authorities and elected members, on proposals relating to the future of individual driving test centres in Scotland. The Scottish Executive will, of course, also be consulted.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1889E118P162C708968", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26880, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26881, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 380.0, "QuestionHeading": "Bus Services", "QuestionHeadingID": 26898, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 533.0, "DisplayOrder": 533.0, "ID": 26898, "ParentID": 26881 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morrison, Mr Alasdair", "ID": 1889, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Western Isles" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morrison", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Morrison: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 538.0, "ContributionID": 708968, "EditedText": "We realise that buses are a social necessity for people who live in rural areas. It is for local authorities to provide the level of bus service that is required to meet the needs of rural communities in their areas through the adoption of local transport strategies. We remain committed to ensuring that our transport policies continue to support rural communities.", "EditedTextHTML": "We realise that buses are a social necessity for people who live in rural areas. It is for local authorities to provide the level of bus service that is required to meet the needs of rural communities in their areas through the adoption of local transport strategies. We remain committed to ensuring that our transport policies continue to support rural communities.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1889E118P162C708971", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26880, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26881, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 380.0, "QuestionHeading": "Petrol Pricing", "QuestionHeadingID": 26899, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 540.0, "DisplayOrder": 540.0, "ID": 26899, "ParentID": 26881 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morrison, Mr Alasdair", "ID": 1889, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Western Isles" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morrison", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Morrison: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 545.0, "ContributionID": 708971, "EditedText": "We have to deal with reality. We are awaiting the conclusions of the OFT investigation. The OFT became involved for the second time following the intervention of Calum Macdonald, who was then the transport minister. It would be foolish to pre-empt its conclusions. We welcome the OFT's interest in the Highlands and Islands. There are legitimate concerns about profiteering, but we must await the OFT's conclusions.", "EditedTextHTML": "We have to deal with reality. We are awaiting the conclusions of the OFT investigation. The OFT became involved for the second time following the intervention of Calum Macdonald, who was then the transport minister. It would be foolish to pre-empt its conclusions. We welcome the OFT's interest in the Highlands and

Islands. There are legitimate concerns about profiteering, but we must await the OFT's conclusions.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2056E57P84C708972", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26880, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26881, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 380.0, "QuestionHeading": "Levi Strauss Co", "QuestionHeadingID": 26900, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 547.0, "DisplayOrder": 547.0, "ID": 26900, "ParentID": 26881 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James", "ID": 2056, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "James Douglas-Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "21. Lord James Douglas-Hamilton (Lothians) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 548.0, "ContributionID": 708972, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will make a statement as to the possible outcome of recent discussions with the Levi Strauss Co. (S1O-405) The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning (Henry McLeish): I met Mr Carl von Buskirk, the president of Levi Strauss, Europe on Friday 17 September in Scotland. I met Mr Bob Haas, the chief executive officer and chairman of Levi Strauss, in San Francisco on 23 September. Both meetings were conducted in a very positive and constructive manner.The proposal to close the Whitburn factory and the Bothwell depot and to reduce staffing levels at Bellshill was a difficult decision for the company. I received assurance that the company is committed to helping both the work force and the affected communities.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will make a statement as to the possible outcome of recent discussions with the Levi Strauss Co. (S1O-405) The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning (Henry McLeish): I met Mr Carl von Buskirk, the president of Levi Strauss, Europe on Friday 17 September in Scotland. I met Mr Bob Haas, the chief executive officer and chairman of Levi Strauss, in San Francisco on 23 September. Both meetings were conducted in a very positive

and constructive manner.

The proposal to close the Whitburn factory and the Bothwell depot and to reduce staffing levels at Bellshill was a difficult decision for the company. I received assurance that the company is committed to helping both the work force and the affected communities.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C708974", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26880, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26881, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 380.0, "QuestionHeading": "Levi Strauss Co", "QuestionHeadingID": 26900, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 547.0, "DisplayOrder": 547.0, "ID": 26900, "ParentID": 26881 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 552.0, "ContributionID": 708974, "EditedText": "I can assure Lord James that that is the case. Indeed, this morning the First Minister made the point that we want to ensure that every possible help is given to the work force at Levi Strauss so that it can take advantage of existing opportunities. I spoke to Harry Donaldson, the General, Municipal, Boilermakers and Allied Trades Union official, this morning. The union is about to enter negotiations with the company about the redundancy package. We hope that there will be a successful outcome. Everything possible will be done to commit ourselves to a task force to ensure that job opportunities are to the fore.", "EditedTextHTML": "I can assure Lord James that that is the case. Indeed, this morning the First Minister made the point that we want to ensure that every possible help is given to the work force at Levi Strauss so that it can take advantage of existing opportunities. I spoke to Harry Donaldson, the General, Municipal, Boilermakers and Allied Trades Union official, this morning. The union is about to enter negotiations with the company about the redundancy package. We hope that there will be a successful outcome. Everything possible will be done to commit ourselves to a task force to ensure that job opportunities are to the fore.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C708982", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26901, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 554.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26902, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 555.0, "QuestionHeading": "Freedom of Information", "QuestionHeadingID": 26904, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 571.0, "DisplayOrder": 571.0, "ID": 26904, "ParentID": 26902 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "2. David McLetchie (Lothians) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 572.0, "ContributionID": 708982, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what are the aims of its proposed freedom of information regime. (S1O407) The Deputy First Minister and Minister of Justice (Mr Jim Wallace): The aim of the statutory freedom of information regime will be to provide a right of access to information that is held by Scottish public authorities. The Executive will publish a consultation document in the autumn setting out its proposals.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what are the aims of its proposed freedom of information regime. (S1O407) The Deputy First Minister and Minister of Justice (Mr Jim Wallace): The aim of the statutory freedom of information regime will be to provide a right of access to information that is held by Scottish public authorities. The Executive will publish a consultation document in the autumn setting out its proposals.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C708983", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26901, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 554.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26902, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 555.0, "QuestionHeading": "Freedom of Information", "QuestionHeadingID": 26904, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 571.0, "DisplayOrder": 571.0, "ID": 26904, "ParentID": 26902 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 574.0, "ContributionID": 708983, "EditedText": "As the Deputy First Minister knows, the Scottish Executive's code on freedom of information states that in making decisions, ministers will publish the facts and analysis of the facts that ministers consider relevant. In view of the disquiet in the medical community which has been voiced by senior figures such as Dr John Garner, the Scottish chairman of the British Medical Association, and Professor Arnold Maran, the president of the Royal College of Surgeons, about the background of the decision of the Minister for Health and Community Care to centralise paediatric cardiac surgery at the royal hospital for sick children in Yorkhill rather than at the royal hospital for sick children in Edinburgh, will the Executive publish the report of the national services division, for which it, and the Liberal Democrat group on City of Edinburgh Council, called?", "EditedTextHTML": "As the Deputy First Minister knows, the Scottish Executive's code on freedom of information states that in making decisions, ministers will publish the facts and analysis of the facts that ministers consider relevant.

In view of the disquiet in the medical community which has been voiced by senior figures such as Dr John Garner, the Scottish chairman of the British Medical Association, and Professor Arnold

Maran, the president of the Royal College of Surgeons, about the background of the decision of the Minister for Health and Community Care to centralise paediatric cardiac surgery at the royal hospital for sick children in Yorkhill rather than at the royal hospital for sick children in Edinburgh, will the Executive publish the report of the national services division, for which it, and the Liberal Democrat group on City of Edinburgh Council, called?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C708984", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26901, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 554.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26902, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 555.0, "QuestionHeading": "Freedom of Information", "QuestionHeadingID": 26904, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 571.0, "DisplayOrder": 571.0, "ID": 26904, "ParentID": 26902 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 576.0, "ContributionID": 708984, "EditedText": "Mr McLetchie's familiarity with the code of practice on access to Scottish Executive information means, I am sure, that he has got as far as reading part II, which sets out some of the exempt categories. Those include information whose disclosure would harm the frankness and candour of internal discussion, which covers internal opinion, advice, recommendation, consultation and deliberation, and projections and assumptions relating to internal policy analysis. The advice that was supplied by the national services division is exempt from publication under the section that I have read out. It counts as part of the advice that was put to the Minister for Health and Community Care. Such advice is treated as confidential.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr McLetchie's familiarity with the code of practice on access to Scottish Executive information means, I am sure, that he has got as far as reading part II, which sets out some of the exempt categories. Those include information whose disclosure would harm the frankness and candour of internal discussion, which covers internal opinion, advice, recommendation, consultation and deliberation, and projections and assumptions relating to internal policy analysis.

The advice that was supplied by the national services division is exempt from publication under the section that I have read out. It counts as part of the advice that was put to the Minister for Health and Community Care. Such advice is treated as confidential.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2223E203P342C708993", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26901, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 554.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26902, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 555.0, "QuestionHeading": "Land Reform", "QuestionHeadingID": 26905, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 586.0, "DisplayOrder": 586.0, "ID": 26905, "ParentID": 26902 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scott, Tavish", "ID": 2223, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Shetland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tavish Scott", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tavish Scott (Shetland) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 595.0, "ContributionID": 708993, "EditedText": "Does the minister recognise that one of the reasons Ollaberry in Shetland won the crofting township of the year award is that it is an active and vibrant community? A crofting outgoers scheme, which would free up crofts for new entrants, would be a helpful reform. Does the minister agree that that would help to revitalise crofting communities?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the minister recognise that one of the reasons Ollaberry in Shetland won the crofting township of the year award is that it is an active and vibrant community? A crofting outgoers scheme, which would free up crofts for new entrants, would be a helpful reform. Does the minister agree that that would help to revitalise crofting communities?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2066E64P88C708995", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26901, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 554.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26902, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 555.0, "QuestionHeading": "Land Reform", "QuestionHeadingID": 26905, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 586.0, "DisplayOrder": 586.0, "ID": 26905, "ParentID": 26902 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McGrigor, Jamie", "ID": 2066, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie McGrigor", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Jamie McGrigor (Highlands and Islands) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 599.0, "ContributionID": 708995, "EditedText": "Does the minister accept that if there is no improvement in sheep prices and no reduction in fuel prices, there will not be many crofters left?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the minister accept that if there is no improvement in sheep prices and no reduction in fuel prices, there will not be many crofters left?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C708996", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26901, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 554.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26902, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 555.0, "QuestionHeading": "Land Reform", "QuestionHeadingID": 26905, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 586.0, "DisplayOrder": 586.0, "ID": 26905, "ParentID": 26902 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ross Finnie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 601.0, "ContributionID": 708996, "EditedText": "I am not entirely sure. This gets back to the ewe question, Sir David, which I know you are very sensitive about. Laughter. I do not think that there is anything in particular that I can do to raise ewe prices. As members know, we are taking positive steps. We announced that we are putting £20 million into hill livestock compensatory allowances. More than 40 per cent of that money will go to sheep farmers and therefore to people in the less favoured areas, in our crofting communities. The Executive has taken positive steps to assist in the financial circumstances of those areas. It is not simply a question of fuel prices, but of the support that crofters receive.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am not entirely sure. This gets back to the ewe question, Sir David, which I know you are very sensitive about. [Laughter.]

I do not think that there is anything in particular that I can do to raise ewe prices. As members know, we are taking positive steps. We announced that we are putting £20 million into hill livestock compensatory allowances. More than 40 per cent of that money will go to sheep farmers and therefore to people in the less favoured areas, in our crofting communities. The Executive has taken positive steps to assist in the financial circumstances of those areas. It is not simply a question of fuel prices, but of the support that crofters receive.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708998", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26906, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 605.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 605.0, "ID": 26906, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 606.0, "ContributionID": 708998, "EditedText": "We move on to the stage 1 debate on the Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill. I invite members who wish to speak to register by pressing their buttons.", "EditedTextHTML": "We move on to the stage 1 debate on the Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill. I invite members who wish to speak to register by pressing their buttons.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C709004", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26906, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 605.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 605.0, "ID": 26906, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Keith Raffan (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 619.0, "ContributionID": 709004, "EditedText": "I am sorry to interrupt the minister in full flow, but local government expenditure is an important issue. I accept that the Accounts Commission will still perform local authority audits, although the organisation may subcontract that responsibility to Audit Scotland. However, if we accept that local authorities have their own mandate, what opportunity will the Parliament have to examine the overall global expenditure of local government?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry to interrupt the minister in full flow, but local government expenditure is an important issue. I accept that the Accounts Commission will still perform local authority audits, although the organisation may subcontract that responsibility to Audit Scotland. However, if we accept that local authorities have their own mandate, what opportunity will the Parliament have to examine the overall global expenditure of local government?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C709012", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26906, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 605.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 605.0, "ID": 26906, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 637.0, "ContributionID": 709012, "EditedText": "I would be interested to know whether Miss Goldie finds it interesting that there is an agreement between the nationalist party and some of the more extreme members of her own party, with whom I am sure she does not agree.", "EditedTextHTML": "I would be interested to know whether Miss Goldie finds it interesting that there is an agreement between the nationalist party and some of the more extreme members of her own party, with whom I am sure she does not agree.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C709007", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26906, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 605.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 605.0, "ID": 26906, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Richard Simpson (Ochil) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 626.0, "ContributionID": 709007, "EditedText": "Will the member join me in welcoming the three-year expenditure plans that the Government has developed, which allow the sort of forward planning that he talks about?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member join me in welcoming the three-year expenditure plans that the Government has developed, which allow the sort of forward planning that he talks about?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C709010", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26906, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 605.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 605.0, "ID": 26906, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 633.0, "ContributionID": 709010, "EditedText": "I am grateful to Miss Goldie for allowing an intervention at this stage. Will she agree that many members of her party, including Michael Fry, Peter Snell and Murdo Fraser, published a pamphlet calling for just the fiscal autonomy that I have outlined?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful to Miss Goldie for allowing an intervention at this stage. Will she agree that many members of her party, including Michael Fry, Peter Snell and Murdo Fraser, published a pamphlet calling for just the fiscal autonomy that I have outlined?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C709015", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26906, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 605.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 605.0, "ID": 26906, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Keith Raffan (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 644.0, "ContributionID": 709015, "EditedText": "I was entertained by Miss Goldie's speech, and even more by Mr Wilson's intervention reminding her of the more extreme members of the Scottish Conservative party. May I remind her of what some of the moderate members of her party have said—those that have not left to join the Liberal Democrats, that is? The current chairman of the Conservative party, Michael Ancram—the Earl of Ancram, to give him his full courtesy title—was the founder chairman of the Thistle group. That group's main policy was a Scottish Parliament with full tax-raising and revenue-raising powers. Those are all things that the Scottish Conservative party has abandoned. It has returned to a prehistoric, Neanderthal age and given up the progressive views of enlightened men such as Alick Buchanan-Smith; it has regressed into a deep, black hole and those are the views that we heard from Miss Goldie today. I thought that Miss Goldie gave a stage 2 rather than a stage 1 speech. This debate is about the broad principles of this bill, not its details, which we will come to later. It is interesting that, before lunch, the press gallery was full of people— absolutely packed—for the discussion of what is, frankly, a relatively trivial and minor matter. Where are they now? The bill is uncontroversial, but it is very important. It would be a model of financial management for any country, and other countries will be beating a path to our door to learn how we are laying down the framework for budget scrutiny. The difference between Holyrood and Westminster—and I wish that there was more than one sole person in the press gallery to report it—is the fact that we are ensuring that the Parliament rather than the Executive will dominate this process.", "EditedTextHTML": "I was entertained by Miss Goldie's speech, and even more by Mr Wilson's intervention reminding her of the more extreme members of the Scottish Conservative party. May I remind her of what some of the moderate members of her party have said—those that have not left to join the Liberal Democrats, that is?

The current chairman of the Conservative party, Michael Ancram—the Earl of Ancram, to give him his full courtesy title—was the founder chairman of the Thistle group. That group's main policy was a Scottish Parliament with full tax-raising and revenue-raising powers. Those are all things that the Scottish Conservative party has abandoned. It has returned to a prehistoric, Neanderthal age and given up the progressive views of enlightened men such as Alick Buchanan-Smith; it has regressed into a deep, black hole and those are the views that we heard from Miss Goldie today.

I thought that Miss Goldie gave a stage 2 rather than a stage 1 speech. This debate is about the broad principles of this bill, not its details, which we will come to later. It is interesting that, before lunch, the press gallery was full of people— absolutely packed—for the discussion of what is, frankly, a relatively trivial and minor matter. Where are they now? The bill is uncontroversial, but it is very important. It would be a model of financial management for any country, and other countries will be beating a path to our door to learn how we are laying down the framework for budget scrutiny. The difference between Holyrood and Westminster—and I wish that there was more than one sole person in the press gallery to report it—is the fact that we are ensuring that the Parliament rather than the Executive will dominate this process.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C709018", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26906, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 605.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 605.0, "ID": 26906, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Goldie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 650.0, "ContributionID": 709018, "EditedText": "I wish merely to observe that perhaps the reason why there is only one member of the press in the gallery is that the rest had some prescience that Mr Raffan was going to speak.", "EditedTextHTML": "I wish merely to observe that perhaps the reason why there is only one member of the press in the gallery is that the rest had some prescience that Mr Raffan was going to speak.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C709019", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26906, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 605.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 605.0, "ID": 26906, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 652.0, "ContributionID": 709019, "EditedText": "Miss Goldie must do better than that. She spoke immediately before me and I am afraid that the press evacuated the gallery just before that. They might return if they realise that somebody else—anybody but Miss Goldie with the Neanderthal views that she expresses on behalf her prehistoric party—is speaking. Brian Adam (North-East Scotland) (SNP)rose—", "EditedTextHTML": "Miss Goldie must do better than that. She spoke immediately before me and I am afraid that the press evacuated the gallery just before that. They might return if they realise that somebody else—anybody but Miss Goldie with the Neanderthal views that she expresses on behalf her prehistoric party—is speaking.

Brian Adam (North-East Scotland) (SNP)

rose—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C709032", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26906, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 605.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 605.0, "ID": 26906, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 683.0, "ContributionID": 709032, "EditedText": "Does Lewis Macdonald agree, therefore, that it is wrong that Westminster has the right to audit our activities? According to the principle that the member has set out with regard to local government, Westminster ought not to retain that right.", "EditedTextHTML": "Does Lewis Macdonald agree, therefore, that it is wrong that Westminster has the right to audit our activities? According to the principle that the member has set out with regard to local government, Westminster ought not to retain that right.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2142E142P230C709027", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26906, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 605.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 605.0, "ID": 26906, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Watson, Mike", "ID": 2142, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Cathcart" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Watson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mike Watson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 671.0, "ContributionID": 709027, "EditedText": "Of course. To restate the point that has been made and cannot be made too often, the bill is an example of the way in which the Scottish Parliament can do things differently. I welcome the bill being introduced so quickly; it is early evidence of a system above reproach, characterised by transparency and accountability at every stage of the process. That is a better and more effective way of doing things than has been the case in the UK Parliament. We are a modern Parliament: we can do things in a modern and responsive way, and we are setting in train the procedures that will allow us to do that. The way in which the Finance Committee and the Audit Committee are already operating shows that at an early stage in this Parliament we want to be involved in establishing the basic foundation and framework that for years to come will underscore the effectiveness of the Parliament's budget and auditing procedures.", "EditedTextHTML": "Of course. To restate the point that has been made and cannot be made too often, the bill is an example of the way in which the Scottish Parliament can do things differently. I welcome the bill being introduced so quickly; it is early evidence of a system above reproach, characterised by transparency and accountability at every stage of the process. That is a better and more effective way of doing things than has been the case in the UK Parliament.

We are a modern Parliament: we can do things in a modern and responsive way, and we are setting in train the procedures that will allow us to do that. The way in which the Finance Committee and the Audit Committee are already operating shows that at an early stage in this Parliament we want to be involved in establishing the basic foundation and framework that for years to come will underscore the effectiveness of the Parliament's budget and auditing procedures.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1906E278P355C709024", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26906, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 605.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 605.0, "ID": 26906, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Welsh, Andrew", "ID": 1906, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Angus" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Welsh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Andrew Welsh (Angus) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 664.0, "ContributionID": 709024, "EditedText": "Karen Whitefield has clearly set out the hopes that are being placed in this bill—that this Parliament can do things better and be a model for others to follow. I hope that that will be so. We all have a duty to the people of Scotland to make it so. We are discussing one of the fundamental cornerstones of this Parliament's work—the best use of public finance for the public benefit. Assurances about probity, efficiency and effectiveness in finance, and rules of accountability and openness between Executive, Parliament and the people, are fundamental to the new Scottish democratic system. Achieving a broad consensus after widespread consultation has been important as a basis for progress. In drawing on a wide cross-section of opinion, and producing five overarching objectives and 82 recommendations, the financial issues advisory group has made the work of this Parliament easier and I congratulate it on its contribution to this debate. I can report that the Audit Committee broadly accepts the structures and principles of this Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill. However, we have caveats on certain specific matters that, no doubt, will be explored further at stage 2. Specifically, although there is a right of access to the accounts of organisations for which public money makes up less than 50 per cent of their income, those organisations are not covered by the Auditor General for Scotland. As 49 per cent of such income can account for very large sums of public money, I think that accountability should eventually be extended to all publicly funded bodies. It is up to the Auditor General for Scotland and this Parliament to decide whether such a right should be taken up. Being freed from Westminster time strictures should allow this Parliament greater focus and accountability at all levels of public finance. It gives us a chance to allow the people of Scotland to have far greater scrutiny than has ever been possible before to get to the root of how their money is spent, through us, by organisations throughout Scotland. Higher education should also come under the remit of Audit Scotland, and I hope that that will come about within a reasonable time scale. Although it understands the constitutional problems involved, the Audit Committee has also expressed concerns about local authority accountability—that subject may be raised as the bill progresses. I also refer the minister to the comments of the Subordinate Legislation Committee regarding section 28 of the bill. Scotland's population of 5 million people makes us an almost ideal administrative unit, making possible the introduction of greater accountability and closer scrutiny of resources. I hope that, using the standard mechanism of annual budgets, this Parliament can influence decision making in the medium and long term. Resources are finite and limited under devolution, so it is crucial to ensure continuity of policy and maximum efficiency for every pound spent. Parliament and the Executive must focus on the priorities to which those resources are put. Any mistakes will be costly and will hold back economic and social developments that have been outlined in debates in this chamber. I hope that Audit Scotland will play a positive role and encourage innovation and ingenuity. The end product of its research and development work must be the imaginative and positive use of public assets for the public good. The greater the financial efficiency in the husbanding of present and future assets, the greater the benefit to all the people of Scotland will be. I take it as read that inputs will receive thorough examination to ensure probity, correctness and transparency. I also want ideas and innovation to flourish in encouraging the effectiveness of budget outputs and in the use of existing resources. We should ask how budgets are being drawn up for scarce resources and how the best services can be delivered to the people whom we serve. Scotland is both a small enough and a large enough administrative unit to allow such detailed scrutiny. The broad outlines of the proposals for Audit Scotland, for the Scottish commission for public audit, for accountable officers, for the transfer of NHS auditing and for inclusion of further education are all sound; they set a pattern for more efficient and effective scrutiny of public finances. The bill also sets out value-for-money provisions for the Auditor General for Scotland, which should presage future gains, both in financial efficiency and in the quality of financial accounting in Scotland. Any money freed up can immediately be turned to the services that this Parliament provides for the people. This Parliament can be sure that its Executive is answerable through the bill and is open in its financial dealings. If Audit Scotland is fit for that task, there will be tangible benefits for the Scottish people. We have been given a fixed and finite overall budget and this legislation ensures that that limited finance is openly and effectively used and that reports about its use are brought back to Parliament and to the people. I believe that FIAG has given us a sound democratic basis on which progress can be made. It is now up to us, through this bill, to deliver the reality.", "EditedTextHTML": "Karen Whitefield has clearly set out the hopes that are being placed in this bill—that this Parliament can do things better and be a model for others to follow. I hope that that will be so. We all have a duty to the people of Scotland to make it so.

We are discussing one of the fundamental cornerstones of this Parliament's work—the best use of public finance for the public benefit. Assurances about probity, efficiency and effectiveness in finance, and rules of accountability and openness between Executive, Parliament and the people, are fundamental to the new Scottish democratic system. Achieving a broad consensus after widespread consultation has been important as a basis for progress. In drawing on a wide cross-section of opinion, and producing five overarching objectives and 82 recommendations, the financial issues advisory group has made the work of this Parliament easier and I congratulate it on its contribution to this debate.

I can report that the Audit Committee broadly accepts the structures and principles of this Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill. However, we have caveats on certain specific matters that, no doubt, will be explored further at stage 2. Specifically, although there is a right of access to the accounts of organisations for which public money makes up less than 50 per cent of their income, those organisations are not covered by the Auditor General for Scotland. As 49 per cent of such income can account for very large sums of public money, I think that accountability should eventually be extended to all publicly funded bodies. It is up to the Auditor General for Scotland and this Parliament to decide whether such a right should be taken up.

Being freed from Westminster time strictures should allow this Parliament greater focus and accountability at all levels of public finance. It gives us a chance to allow the people of Scotland to have far greater scrutiny than has ever been possible before to get to the root of how their money is spent, through us, by organisations throughout Scotland.

Higher education should also come under the remit of Audit Scotland, and I hope that that will come about within a reasonable time scale. Although it understands the constitutional problems involved, the Audit Committee has also expressed concerns about local authority accountability—that subject may be raised as the bill progresses. I also refer the minister to the comments of the Subordinate Legislation Committee regarding section 28 of the bill.

Scotland's population of 5 million people makes us an almost ideal administrative unit, making possible the introduction of greater accountability and closer scrutiny of resources. I hope that, using the standard mechanism of annual budgets, this Parliament can influence decision making in the medium and long term. Resources are finite and limited under devolution, so it is crucial to ensure continuity of policy and maximum efficiency for every pound spent. Parliament and the Executive must focus on the priorities to which those resources are put. Any mistakes will be costly and will hold back economic and social developments that have been outlined in debates in this chamber.

I hope that Audit Scotland will play a positive role and encourage innovation and ingenuity. The

end product of its research and development work must be the imaginative and positive use of public assets for the public good. The greater the financial efficiency in the husbanding of present and future assets, the greater the benefit to all the people of Scotland will be. I take it as read that inputs will receive thorough examination to ensure probity, correctness and transparency. I also want ideas and innovation to flourish in encouraging the effectiveness of budget outputs and in the use of existing resources. We should ask how budgets are being drawn up for scarce resources and how the best services can be delivered to the people whom we serve.

Scotland is both a small enough and a large enough administrative unit to allow such detailed scrutiny. The broad outlines of the proposals for Audit Scotland, for the Scottish commission for public audit, for accountable officers, for the transfer of NHS auditing and for inclusion of further education are all sound; they set a pattern for more efficient and effective scrutiny of public finances.

The bill also sets out value-for-money provisions for the Auditor General for Scotland, which should presage future gains, both in financial efficiency and in the quality of financial accounting in Scotland. Any money freed up can immediately be turned to the services that this Parliament provides for the people.

This Parliament can be sure that its Executive is answerable through the bill and is open in its financial dealings. If Audit Scotland is fit for that task, there will be tangible benefits for the Scottish people. We have been given a fixed and finite overall budget and this legislation ensures that that limited finance is openly and effectively used and that reports about its use are brought back to Parliament and to the people. I believe that FIAG has given us a sound democratic basis on which progress can be made. It is now up to us, through this bill, to deliver the reality.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5608535+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2234E7P20C709044", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26906, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 605.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 605.0, "ID": 26906, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Aitken, Bill", "ID": 2234, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bill Aitken", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bill Aitken (Glasgow) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 714.0, "ContributionID": 709044, "EditedText": "Although today's debate has been highly technical, it is important because we are discussing the proper scrutiny of the expenditure of £14 billion. Many of this afternoon's speeches have left me having mainly to say that we are ad idem with regard to the proposals. Jack McConnell is to be congratulated on the fact that the Executive has introduced the bill so quickly. In a week when lucky white heather has been in rather short supply for the minister, I think he will be the first to acknowledge the fact that the consultative steering group report on the matter enabled his department to draft the bill very quickly indeed. Credit should go to those people and to the financial issues advisory group for their input. Having said that, there are some aspects of the bill which the Conservative party regards as deficient. The most obvious deficiency is the absence of local government spending. As Annabel Goldie said, local government spends £6.4 billion of the Scottish block. We should be examining that more closely. I am intrigued to know whether that was an unintentional omission. The Accounts Commission was given the powers to supervise local government under the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1973. However, I wonder whether, when the Scotland Act 1998 was passed, that aspect of the legislation was transferred en bloc without scrutiny. Stranger things have happened. It is open to the Executive to introduce amendments and we would commend that course of action. Another point—which Brian Adam made—is that audit nowadays should be somewhat more advanced than it was formerly. Frankly, the days have long since gone when the Audit Commission—or the new body that we are setting up—would count the paper clips and check the petty cash. Auditors must now look closely at the way in which organisations spend and obtain money. They must make positive and coherent recommendations on how organisations can make themselves more efficient. I hope that Audit Scotland will do that. The speeches made by SNP members have intrigued me somewhat. They varied from Andrew Wilson's slightly mischievous interpretation of the Scotland Act 1998, to Andrew Welsh's more subtle interpretation of that act when he talked about the budget process. The Conservative party recognises the merit in what Andrew Wilson said. The new body—Audit Scotland—should be given the power and the facilities to control and scrutinise the budget of all public spending authorities. I hope that the minister, in his summing up today or in the stage 2 debate, will deal with the fact that, although the bill goes some way towards creating a transparent process, the committees are not being used to the fullest possible extent. We want the Finance Committee and the Audit Committee to be involved as fully as possible in the budget process, at the determination stage and at all subsequent stages. It is not good enough to deal with budget amendments by using secondary legislation—primary legislation should be used. On the whole, we welcome the bill. We hope that the minister will take on board the suggestions that we have made—suggestions that have been entirely constructive, as I am sure he will concede. We hope that, when it is finalised, it will be worthy of this Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "Although today's debate has been highly technical, it is important because we are discussing the proper scrutiny of the expenditure of £14 billion. Many of this afternoon's speeches have left me having mainly to say that we are ad idem with regard to the proposals.

Jack McConnell is to be congratulated on the fact that the Executive has introduced the bill so quickly. In a week when lucky white heather has been in rather short supply for the minister, I think he will be the first to acknowledge the fact that the consultative steering group report on the matter enabled his department to draft the bill very quickly indeed. Credit should go to those people and to the financial issues advisory group for their input.

Having said that, there are some aspects of the bill which the Conservative party regards as deficient. The most obvious deficiency is the absence of local government spending. As Annabel Goldie said, local government spends £6.4 billion of the Scottish block. We should be examining that more closely. I am intrigued to know whether that was an unintentional omission.

The Accounts Commission was given the powers to supervise local government under the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1973. However, I wonder whether, when the Scotland Act 1998 was passed, that aspect of the legislation was transferred en bloc without scrutiny. Stranger things have happened. It is open to the Executive to introduce amendments and we would commend that course of action.

Another point—which Brian Adam made—is that audit nowadays should be somewhat more advanced than it was formerly. Frankly, the days have long since gone when the Audit Commission—or the new body that we are setting up—would count the paper clips and check the petty cash. Auditors must now look closely at the way in which organisations spend and obtain money. They must make positive and coherent recommendations on how organisations can make themselves more efficient. I hope that Audit Scotland will do that.

The speeches made by SNP members have intrigued me somewhat. They varied from Andrew Wilson's slightly mischievous interpretation of the Scotland Act 1998, to Andrew Welsh's more subtle interpretation of that act when he talked about the budget process. The Conservative party recognises the merit in what Andrew Wilson said. The new body—Audit Scotland—should be given the power and the facilities to control and scrutinise the budget of all public spending authorities.

I hope that the minister, in his summing up today or in the stage 2 debate, will deal with the fact that, although the bill goes some way towards creating a transparent process, the committees are not being used to the fullest possible extent. We want the Finance Committee and the Audit Committee to be involved as fully as possible in the budget process, at the determination stage and at all subsequent stages. It is not good enough to deal with budget amendments by using secondary legislation—primary legislation should be used.

On the whole, we welcome the bill. We hope that the minister will take on board the suggestions that we have made—suggestions that have been entirely constructive, as I am sure he will concede. We hope that, when it is finalised, it will be worthy of this Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709046", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26906, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 605.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 605.0, "ID": 26906, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 719.0, "ContributionID": 709046, "EditedText": "Mr Jack McConnell will wind up the debate for the Executive. Mr McConnell, you can speak until", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Jack McConnell will wind up the debate for the Executive. Mr McConnell, you can speak until

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C709049", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26906, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 605.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 605.0, "ID": 26906, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 726.0, "ContributionID": 709049, "EditedText": "Given that I did not say that we should take no interest in local authorities, I would not agree with that argument—from the point of view of consistency that Andrew Wilson is attempting to advance. It is right and proper that the Local Government Committee of this Parliament, in its deliberations, meets, as it has already done, the Accounts Commission, examines Accounts Commission reports, comments regularly and, perhaps, tries to influence the work of local authorities, individually or collectively. It is right and proper that this Parliament—not ministers; not the Executive—will agree the annual allocations to local authorities, in both capital and revenue. It would not be right, however, for this Parliament and our auditing system to be involved directly in the auditing of local authorities. That is a principle that should be maintained. It was recommended by FIAG, which we have all praised today, and we should go with that recommendation. Other points made by Brian Adam were much more interesting and important. In particular, he made a point about Audit Scotland's research and development work, which is central to the creation of the new body. I hope that the amalgamation of the audit offices will let us expand the auditing opportunities, the skills in those offices, make more resources available for research and development work and make Audit Scotland, as Brian said, a champion for good practice.", "EditedTextHTML": "Given that I did not say that we should take no interest in local authorities, I would not agree with that argument—from the point of view of consistency that Andrew Wilson is attempting to advance.

It is right and proper that the Local Government Committee of this Parliament, in its deliberations, meets, as it has already done, the Accounts Commission, examines Accounts Commission reports, comments regularly and, perhaps, tries to influence the work of local authorities, individually or collectively.

It is right and proper that this Parliament—not ministers; not the Executive—will agree the annual allocations to local authorities, in both capital and revenue. It would not be right, however, for this Parliament and our auditing system to be involved directly in the auditing of local authorities. That is a principle that should be maintained. It was recommended by FIAG, which we have all praised today, and we should go with that recommendation.

Other points made by Brian Adam were much more interesting and important. In particular, he made a point about Audit Scotland's research and development work, which is central to the creation of the new body.

I hope that the amalgamation of the audit offices will let us expand the auditing opportunities, the skills in those offices, make more resources available for research and development work and make Audit Scotland, as Brian said, a champion for good practice.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C709055", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26906, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 605.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 605.0, "ID": 26906, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 738.0, "ContributionID": 709055, "EditedText": "You did not speak in the debate.Adam Ingram's point about European structural funds was important. We need a well resourced Scotland Office, based in London, but which operates here in Scotland too, to ensure that the best settlements for Scotland are won at United Kingdom level. I will defend that position in any chamber at any time. I also hope that the remarkable consensus that appears to be developing on the Liberal Democrat and Scottish National party benches lasts— perhaps Adam Ingram has been at the Keith Raffan school of consensus speech-making.", "EditedTextHTML": "You did not speak in the debate.

Adam Ingram's point about European structural funds was important. We need a well resourced Scotland Office, based in London, but which operates here in Scotland too, to ensure that the best settlements for Scotland are won at United Kingdom level. I will defend that position in any chamber at any time.

I also hope that the remarkable consensus that appears to be developing on the Liberal Democrat and Scottish National party benches lasts— perhaps Adam Ingram has been at the Keith Raffan school of consensus speech-making.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1878E208P502C709062", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26906, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 605.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 605.0, "ID": 26906, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Dr Winnie", "ID": 1878, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Winnie Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 752.0, "ContributionID": 709062, "EditedText": "I did not get an invitation.", "EditedTextHTML": "I did not get an invitation.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709064", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26906, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 605.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 605.0, "ID": 26906, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 756.0, "ContributionID": 709064, "EditedText": "I call Dr Ewing.", "EditedTextHTML": "I call Dr Ewing.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709066", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26906, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 605.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 605.0, "ID": 26906, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 760.0, "ContributionID": 709066, "EditedText": "Yes. I rule not on what is appropriate, but on what is in order and it is perfectly in order for Dr Ewing to make an intervention.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes. I rule not on what is appropriate, but on what is in order and it is perfectly in order for Dr Ewing to make an intervention.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C709068", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26906, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 605.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 605.0, "ID": 26906, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 764.0, "ContributionID": 709068, "EditedText": "Presiding Officer, I have the utmost respect for the mother of the house, as Mr Canavan refers to Dr Ewing, but I think that her constant ungracious remarks about the very good deal that the Prime Minister achieved for the Highlands and Islands do not do her proud at all. I have the utmost confidence in the ability of Andrew Welsh and his committee to ensure that this bill is properly scrutinised. I wish him well in that task and I hope that all members of all parties will be involved in it. We have an opportunity with the bill—and with an act—to sweep away some of the out-of-date terminology that exists in another place, as Dennis might have said. The consolidated fund bills and acts, the appropriation acts the supply estimates, the supplementary estimates, the appropriations in aid—these phrases will go when this bill is passed. In place, there will be, if you like, the Scottish people's phrases: budget bills and acts, detailed agreements, budget revisions, retained receipts. We will put in place proper phraseology that people can understand. We will have a transparent financial decision-making and accounting system. The Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill—with, I hope, all- party support—will allow us to move forward to ensure that this Parliament and this set of ministers have the highest possible reputation.", "EditedTextHTML": "Presiding Officer, I have the utmost respect for the mother of the house, as Mr Canavan refers to Dr Ewing, but I think that her constant ungracious remarks about the very good deal that the Prime Minister achieved for the Highlands and Islands do not do her proud at all.

I have the utmost confidence in the ability of Andrew Welsh and his committee to ensure that this bill is properly scrutinised. I wish him well in that task and I hope that all members of all parties will be involved in it. We have an opportunity with the bill—and with an act—to sweep away some of the out-of-date terminology that exists in another place, as Dennis might have said.

The consolidated fund bills and acts, the appropriation acts the supply estimates, the supplementary estimates, the appropriations in aid—these phrases will go when this bill is passed. In place, there will be, if you like, the Scottish people's phrases: budget bills and acts, detailed agreements, budget revisions, retained receipts. We will put in place proper phraseology that people can understand. We will have a transparent financial decision-making and accounting system. The Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill—with, I hope, all- party support—will allow us to move forward to ensure that this Parliament and this set of ministers have the highest possible reputation.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709072", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26906, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 605.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 605.0, "ID": 26906, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 770.0, "ContributionID": 709072, "EditedText": "Motion moved,", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion moved,

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709073", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26906, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 605.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 605.0, "ID": 26906, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 771.0, "ContributionID": 709073, "EditedText": "That the Parliament agrees the following designation of Lead Committee—", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament agrees the following designation of Lead Committee—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709074", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26906, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 605.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 605.0, "ID": 26906, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 772.0, "ContributionID": 709074, "EditedText": "The Education Culture and Sport Committee to consider the Educational Development, Research and Services (Scotland) Grant Regulations 1999 (SSI 1999/65).—Mr McCabe.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Education Culture and Sport Committee to consider the Educational Development, Research and Services (Scotland) Grant Regulations 1999 (SSI 1999/65).—[Mr McCabe.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709090", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26907, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 773.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 773.0, "ID": 26907, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 799.0, "ContributionID": 709090, "EditedText": "That the Parliament agrees to the general principles of the Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament agrees to the general principles of the Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709091", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26907, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 773.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 773.0, "ID": 26907, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 800.0, "ContributionID": 709091, "EditedText": "The fifth question is that motion S1M-144, in the name of Mr Jack McConnell, on the financial resolution, be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "The fifth question is that motion S1M-144, in the name of Mr Jack McConnell, on the financial resolution, be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709085", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26907, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 773.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 773.0, "ID": 26907, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 792.0, "ContributionID": 709085, "EditedText": "The result is as follows: For 59, Against 34, Abstentions 10.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result is as follows: For 59, Against 34, Abstentions 10.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "C709094", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26907, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 773.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 773.0, "ID": 26907, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 804.0, "ContributionID": 709094, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C709100", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26907, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 773.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 773.0, "ID": 26907, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 813.0, "ContributionID": 709100, "EditedText": "I believe that it is—I would not raise it otherwise. At 11.30 am tomorrow the First Minister and the Secretary of State for Scotland are giving a press conference at which five concordats will be published. Some of that information has apparently been leaked to the press already. Would not it be in order to ensure that members of this Parliament had copies of the five concordats before the press?", "EditedTextHTML": "I believe that it is—I would not raise it otherwise. At 11.30 am tomorrow the First Minister and the Secretary of State for Scotland are giving

a press conference at which five concordats will be published. Some of that information has apparently been leaked to the press already. Would not it be in order to ensure that members of this Parliament had copies of the five concordats before the press?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709103", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26907, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 773.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 773.0, "ID": 26907, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 819.0, "ContributionID": 709103, "EditedText": "Is it the same point of order?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is it the same point of order?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C709107", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26907, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 773.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 773.0, "ID": 26907, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 827.0, "ContributionID": 709107, "EditedText": "That is extremely helpful. Thank you, Mr Smith. I hope that that keeps everyone happy.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is extremely helpful. Thank you, Mr Smith. I hope that that keeps everyone happy.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1840E82P158C709113", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mallaig Road", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26908, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 829.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 829.0, "ID": 26908, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macmillan, Maureen", "ID": 1840, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Maureen Macmillan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Maureen Macmillan (Highlands and Islands) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 839.0, "ContributionID": 709113, "EditedText": "Would it be possible for Rhoda Grant to speak before me, as our speeches complement one another?", "EditedTextHTML": "Would it be possible for Rhoda Grant to speak before me, as our speeches complement one another?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C709118", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mallaig Road", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26908, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 829.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 829.0, "ID": 26908, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 850.0, "ContributionID": 709118, "EditedText": "Very well. What a familiar debate. Tavish Scott, on you go.", "EditedTextHTML": "Very well. What a familiar debate. Tavish Scott, on you go.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2223E203P342C709121", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mallaig Road", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26908, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 829.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 829.0, "ID": 26908, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scott, Tavish", "ID": 2223, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Shetland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tavish Scott", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tavish Scott: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 857.0, "ContributionID": 709121, "EditedText": "Thank you.Highlands and Islands issues generally play a significant role in this chamber, and it is important that ministers are here to respond to the points that are raised. To some extent, that allays many people's fears that issues that are important in our part of the world will not get a full and proper airing in a Parliament in the centre of Edinburgh. As my constituency is dependent on fisheries, I want to follow Fergus's lead in speaking of fishing ports and his use of statistics in showing the importance of those ports. That is the key argument in justifying the need for the changes that he is seeking to make as a constituency MSP. I understand, from figures that I pursued today, that Mallaig is the second most important port in the UK for landings of prawns and shellfish, of which it handles nearly £11 million-worth annually. Mallaig is important in a European context, as it handles 13 per cent of the European prawn catch and it is a major supplier to European markets. It goes without saying, therefore, that the links that companies and individuals can make with the European markets is an essential part of running successful businesses on the periphery of the European Union. We need to invest in the transport links, as they are hugely important. That is especially so in the context of fisheries. There are many roads throughout Scotland about which community groups can make strong cases for investment and infrastructure improvements. Having talked to colleagues and having seen it with my own eyes, I suggest that the strong case that Fergus Ewing is putting to the Parliament today is such an example. I saw Malcolm Chisholm. John Munro was telling me earlier that, when he was the convener of Highland Council's transport committee, Malcolm Chisholm—who was sitting at the back of the chamber a minute or two ago—was, as the Scottish Office transport minister, taken down the road in a 40 ft refrigerated articulated lorry. The council had stitched it up to arrange for bottlenecks all the way down, so that he saw the traffic problems at their worst. Perhaps we should arrange that sort of subtle investigation for Mr Morrison, so that he can truly appreciate the situation. I support Fergus Ewing's motion and I hope that the minister, in summing up, can give him some comfort.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you.

Highlands and Islands issues generally play a significant role in this chamber, and it is important that ministers are here to respond to the points that are raised. To some extent, that allays many people's fears that issues that are important in our part of the world will not get a full and proper airing in a Parliament in the centre of Edinburgh.

As my constituency is dependent on fisheries, I want to follow Fergus's lead in speaking of fishing ports and his use of statistics in showing the importance of those ports. That is the key argument in justifying the need for the changes that he is seeking to make as a constituency MSP.

I understand, from figures that I pursued today, that Mallaig is the second most important port in the UK for landings of prawns and shellfish, of which it handles nearly £11 million-worth annually. Mallaig is important in a European context, as it handles 13 per cent of the European prawn catch and it is a major supplier to European markets. It goes without saying, therefore, that the links that companies and individuals can make with the European markets is an essential part of running successful businesses on the periphery of the European Union. We need to invest in the transport links, as they are hugely important. That is especially so in the context of fisheries.

There are many roads throughout Scotland about which community groups can make strong cases for investment and infrastructure improvements. Having talked to colleagues and having seen it with my own eyes, I suggest that the strong case that Fergus Ewing is putting to the Parliament today is such an example.

I saw Malcolm Chisholm. John Munro was telling me earlier that, when he was the convener of Highland Council's transport committee, Malcolm Chisholm—who was sitting at the back of the chamber a minute or two ago—was, as the Scottish Office transport minister, taken down the road in a 40 ft refrigerated articulated lorry. The council had stitched it up to arrange for bottlenecks all the way down, so that he saw the traffic problems at their worst.

Perhaps we should arrange that sort of subtle investigation for Mr Morrison, so that he can truly appreciate the situation. I support Fergus Ewing's motion and I hope that the minister, in summing up, can give him some comfort.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C709122", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mallaig Road", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26908, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 829.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 829.0, "ID": 26908, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 859.0, "ContributionID": 709122, "EditedText": "I now call Jamie McGrigor—unless, of course, Mary Scanlon is going to appear on your behalf.", "EditedTextHTML": "I now call Jamie McGrigor—unless, of course, Mary Scanlon is going to appear on your behalf.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2068E171P304C709127", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mallaig Road", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26908, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 829.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 829.0, "ID": 26908, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stone, Jamie", "ID": 2068, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie Stone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Stone rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 873.0, "ContributionID": 709127, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C709129", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mallaig Road", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26908, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 829.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 829.0, "ID": 26908, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 877.0, "ContributionID": 709129, "EditedText": "Jamie Stone, there is a minute and a half.", "EditedTextHTML": "Jamie Stone, there is a minute and a half.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1889E118P162C709131", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mallaig Road", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26908, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 829.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 829.0, "ID": 26908, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morrison, Mr Alasdair", "ID": 1889, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Western Isles" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morrison", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Highlands and Islands and Gaelic (Mr Alasdair Morrison): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 883.0, "ContributionID": 709131, "EditedText": "First, I congratulate Fergus Ewing on securing this debate, which addresses a debate that has raged since 1964: thanks for the history lesson, Rhoda. Russell Johnston mentioned the issue in his maiden speech. Sadly, I missed that speech by about five years. Fergus Ewing rightly and graciously commended politicians from all parties for what has been done to progress the debate. Dare I say, governments of all complexions have been lobbied by politicians from the Highlands and Islands. The mother of the Parliament, Winnie Ewing, did not tell us which year she was in Mallaig, but it was in her student days. We will try to guess when.", "EditedTextHTML": "First, I congratulate Fergus Ewing on securing this debate, which addresses a debate that has raged since 1964: thanks for the history lesson, Rhoda. Russell Johnston mentioned the issue in his maiden speech. Sadly, I missed that speech by about five years. Fergus Ewing rightly and graciously commended politicians from all parties for what has been done to progress the debate. Dare I say, governments of all complexions have been lobbied by politicians from the Highlands and Islands.

The mother of the Parliament, Winnie Ewing, did not tell us which year she was in Mallaig, but it was in her student days. We will try to guess when.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1878E208P502C709132", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mallaig Road", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26908, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 829.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 829.0, "ID": 26908, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Dr Winnie", "ID": 1878, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Winnie Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 885.0, "ContributionID": 709132, "EditedText": "It was a long time ago.", "EditedTextHTML": "It was a long time ago.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1889E118P162C709133", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mallaig Road", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26908, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 829.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 829.0, "ID": 26908, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morrison, Mr Alasdair", "ID": 1889, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Western Isles" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morrison", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Morrison: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 887.0, "ContributionID": 709133, "EditedText": "I am told it was a long time ago. Again, Dr Ewing rightly paid tribute to the spirit of the people of that area. They have been fighting against extraordinary situations and they have sustained and stimulated their economy in many respects. Given my responsibility for Highlands and Islands issues, including transport, I am delighted to have this opportunity to respond to the debate. I know that my colleague Sarah Boyack had a useful meeting with Highland Council during her visit to the Highlands last month, and that the A830 was one of the main agenda items. The visit also gave Sarah the opportunity to travel along the A830—I do not know if it was in an articulated lorry, but she did travel along it—and she saw at first hand the conditions on that road. Sarah and I will meet the convener of Highland Council, David Green, next Monday. I have no doubt that he will raise this issue. I shall aim to respond to the points raised during the debate by saying a little about the role of trunk roads within the integrated transport strategy that the Executive is promoting—a role which is being examined in the current strategic roads review. I shall then describe briefly the review itself, before commenting on the potential improvements to the remaining single-track sections of the A830. The partnership for Scotland agreement committed the Executive to the delivery of \"an integrated transport policy which will provide genuine choice to meet transport needs as well as protecting the environment\". That commitment reflects our recognition that past transport policies have been too focused on road transport and have neglected alternative modes. In similar vein, the balance has been allowed to swing too far away from public transport. Past policies have imposed significant environmental, economic and social costs. Our policies aim to promote high-quality public transport and to encourage, where appropriate, the transfer of freight from road to other modes, especially rail. Fergus will be aware of the significance of the freight and facilities grant that was awarded earlier in the year to Safeway, which is transferring its cargo to rail. The agreement noted:\"We recognise that for many people, particularly in rural areas, there is often no alternative to car use and our transport policy will reflect this reality.\" Our approach is neither anti-road nor anti-car. We are looking for transport systems and solutions that are appropriate to the varied needs of different parts of Scotland. Road building, therefore, has a role to play within the integrated transport strategy, but there is a need for all proposals to be carefully scrutinised to ensure that they offer the best transport solution: that is the aim of the strategic roads review. A major element of the strategic roads review involves the prioritisation of the major improvement schemes—those with a capital cost of more than £3 million—in the trunk road preparation pool that was inherited from the previous Conservative administrations. Seventeen schemes with a total capital cost in excess of £800 million are under review: that includes one scheme on the A830. The review is assessing each of the schemes against the criteria of economy, safety, environmental impact, accessibility and integration. Along with this expensive wish list, the previous Government—bless its soul—also bequeathed a radically reduced trunk road budget. While the comprehensive spending review clawed back some of that ground, the need to address the extensive backlog of repair and maintenance, also inherited from the Conservative Government, means that the resources available for improvement schemes are, inevitably, constrained. I think that everyone appreciates that.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am told it was a long time ago. Again, Dr Ewing rightly paid tribute to the spirit of the people of that area. They have been fighting against extraordinary situations and they have sustained and stimulated their economy in many respects.

Given my responsibility for Highlands and Islands issues, including transport, I am delighted to have this opportunity to respond to the debate. I know that my colleague Sarah Boyack had a useful meeting with Highland Council during her visit to the Highlands last month, and that the A830 was one of the main agenda items. The visit also gave Sarah the opportunity to travel along the A830—I do not know if it was in an articulated lorry, but she did travel along it—and she saw at first hand the conditions on that road. Sarah and I will meet the convener of Highland Council, David Green, next Monday. I have no doubt that he will raise this issue.

I shall aim to respond to the points raised during the debate by saying a little about the role of trunk roads within the integrated transport strategy that the Executive is promoting—a role which is being examined in the current strategic roads review. I shall then describe briefly the review itself, before

commenting on the potential improvements to the remaining single-track sections of the A830.

The partnership for Scotland agreement committed the Executive to the delivery of

\"an integrated transport policy which will provide genuine choice to meet transport needs as well as protecting the environment\".

That commitment reflects our recognition that past transport policies have been too focused on road transport and have neglected alternative modes. In similar vein, the balance has been allowed to swing too far away from public transport. Past policies have imposed significant environmental, economic and social costs. Our policies aim to promote high-quality public transport and to encourage, where appropriate, the transfer of freight from road to other modes, especially rail. Fergus will be aware of the significance of the freight and facilities grant that was awarded earlier in the year to Safeway, which is transferring its cargo to rail.

The agreement noted:

\"We recognise that for many people, particularly in rural areas, there is often no alternative to car use and our transport policy will reflect this reality.\"

Our approach is neither anti-road nor anti-car. We are looking for transport systems and solutions that are appropriate to the varied needs of different parts of Scotland. Road building, therefore, has a role to play within the integrated transport strategy, but there is a need for all proposals to be carefully scrutinised to ensure that they offer the best transport solution: that is the aim of the strategic roads review.

A major element of the strategic roads review involves the prioritisation of the major improvement schemes—those with a capital cost of more than £3 million—in the trunk road preparation pool that was inherited from the previous Conservative administrations. Seventeen schemes with a total capital cost in excess of £800 million are under review: that includes one scheme on the A830. The review is assessing each of the schemes against the criteria of economy, safety, environmental impact, accessibility and integration. Along with this expensive wish list, the previous Government—bless its soul—also bequeathed a radically reduced trunk road budget. While the comprehensive spending review clawed back some of that ground, the need to address the extensive backlog of repair and maintenance, also inherited from the Conservative Government, means that the resources available for improvement schemes are, inevitably, constrained. I think that everyone appreciates that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C709137", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mallaig Road", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26908, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 829.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 829.0, "ID": 26908, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 895.0, "ContributionID": 709137, "EditedText": "The minister must wind up for time reasons.", "EditedTextHTML": "The minister must wind up for time reasons.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5921053+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C709111", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mallaig Road", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26908, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 829.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 829.0, "ID": 26908, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fergus Ewing (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 835.0, "ContributionID": 709111, "EditedText": "I am grateful for the opportunity to raise this important issue in the chamber today. The Mallaig road—the A830 from Fort William to Mallaig—is unique in Scotland. It is the only single-track trunk route in the whole of Scotland and, I believe, the whole of the UK. It is appropriate that this first debate involving a trunk road should concern the only single-track trunk road. Members' debates give us the opportunity to raise matters of important constituency interest. We are restricted to two of those debates per member per year and one must therefore choose carefully which subjects to raise. I had no hesitation in deciding that this was the most pressing constituency issue to raise, and I am pleased to see present members of all the other parties. I hope that they will all have a chance to contribute. I will try to keep my remarks to a length that will enable that. The Fort William to Mallaig road stretches for 57 miles. It is the only access to Mallaig—and also to Morar and Arisaig, which are sometimes forgotten. Mallaig is a designated fishing port and, in terms of the value of fish landed, the sixth largest in Scotland, a fact that is not widely known. In 1997, the value of fish landed—largely shellfish—was £17 million or £18 million. I understand from Andy Race, a fish processor, and Jackie Milligan, a haulier, that in one 24-hour period this summer, no fewer than 60 articulated lorries used the Mallaig road. I see that the Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs, John Home Robertson, is here today. His visit to Mallaig during the summer was welcome, and I know that other ministers have visited Mallaig and are aware of the problem. It is a statement of the obvious, but on a single- track road, drivers must stop to give way to oncoming traffic. It is not just twice as difficult to drive on a single-track road as on a normal road with two lanes; it involves tenacity and driving skill that are not required on any other roads. I understand from Hugh Allan of the Mallaig and North-West Fisheries Association that there was not a day last summer when there was not an accident of some kind on that road. The cost of using the road for motorists and hauliers is substantially in excess of that of driving on other roads because of the time spent in low gear, which leads to higher petrol consumption and—according to Mr Milligan—a cost three times higher for tyres and spare parts. The road is known as the road to the isles. It is not so long ago that the Highland clearances took place, so there is a lingering memory of what happened in the past that holds a hint of interest for tourists. There is also the romantic ferry crossing. The ferry's capacity to carry coaches has increased recently, and there has been a massive increase in the number of coaches using the road. Also, 60 to 80 cars come off the Armadale ferry at a time. I pay tribute to the people in Mallaig—to Councillor Charlie King, to Robert MacMillan of the harbour authority, to Andrew Simpson of the chamber of commerce, and to Alistair Gillies of the community council. Other members know those people and how hard they have fought their campaign in a totally united and non-political way. I also pay tribute to the efforts of Lord Russell- Johnston and of David Stewart MP who have, for their part, lobbied hard on the campaign. It is a campaign that is not years but decades old, and it now deserves to be recognised through an announcement in the strategic roads review that both remaining single-track sections will be upgraded. The two remaining sections are known as the Arisaig bypass and the Arisaig to Loch Nan Uamh section. I understand from parliamentary answers from the Minister for Transport and the Environment, Sarah Boyack, that both sections would cost around £9 million to upgrade. So that other members can speak in the debate, I have kept my remarks relatively brief. They have lasted perhaps five or six minutes—I think that that is a new record for members' business. I urge the minister, with his new and onerous responsibilities, to include the case of the Mallaig to Fort William road in the programme to improve the roads of Scotland. It is a compelling and overwhelming case; I believe that it is also unique.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful for the opportunity to raise this important issue in the chamber today. The Mallaig road—the A830 from Fort William to Mallaig—is unique in Scotland. It is the only single-track trunk route in the whole of Scotland and, I believe, the whole of the UK. It is appropriate that this first debate involving a trunk road should concern the only single-track trunk road.

Members' debates give us the opportunity to raise matters of important constituency interest. We are restricted to two of those debates per member per year and one must therefore choose carefully which subjects to raise. I had no hesitation in deciding that this was the most pressing constituency issue to raise, and I am pleased to see present members of all the other parties. I hope that they will all have a chance to contribute. I will try to keep my remarks to a length that will enable that.

The Fort William to Mallaig road stretches for 57 miles. It is the only access to Mallaig—and also to Morar and Arisaig, which are sometimes forgotten. Mallaig is a designated fishing port and, in terms of the value of fish landed, the sixth largest in Scotland, a fact that is not widely known. In 1997, the value of fish landed—largely shellfish—was £17 million or £18 million. I understand from Andy Race, a fish processor, and Jackie Milligan, a haulier, that in one 24-hour period this summer, no fewer than 60 articulated lorries used the Mallaig road. I see that the Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs, John Home Robertson, is here today. His visit to Mallaig during the summer was welcome, and I know that other ministers have visited Mallaig and are aware of the problem.

It is a statement of the obvious, but on a single- track road, drivers must stop to give way to oncoming traffic. It is not just twice as difficult to drive on a single-track road as on a normal road with two lanes; it involves tenacity and driving skill that are not required on any other roads. I

understand from Hugh Allan of the Mallaig and North-West Fisheries Association that there was not a day last summer when there was not an accident of some kind on that road.

The cost of using the road for motorists and hauliers is substantially in excess of that of driving on other roads because of the time spent in low gear, which leads to higher petrol consumption and—according to Mr Milligan—a cost three times higher for tyres and spare parts.

The road is known as the road to the isles. It is not so long ago that the Highland clearances took place, so there is a lingering memory of what happened in the past that holds a hint of interest for tourists. There is also the romantic ferry crossing. The ferry's capacity to carry coaches has increased recently, and there has been a massive increase in the number of coaches using the road. Also, 60 to 80 cars come off the Armadale ferry at a time.

I pay tribute to the people in Mallaig—to Councillor Charlie King, to Robert MacMillan of the harbour authority, to Andrew Simpson of the chamber of commerce, and to Alistair Gillies of the community council. Other members know those people and how hard they have fought their campaign in a totally united and non-political way.

I also pay tribute to the efforts of Lord Russell- Johnston and of David Stewart MP who have, for their part, lobbied hard on the campaign. It is a campaign that is not years but decades old, and it now deserves to be recognised through an announcement in the strategic roads review that both remaining single-track sections will be upgraded.

The two remaining sections are known as the Arisaig bypass and the Arisaig to Loch Nan Uamh section. I understand from parliamentary answers from the Minister for Transport and the Environment, Sarah Boyack, that both sections would cost around £9 million to upgrade.

So that other members can speak in the debate, I have kept my remarks relatively brief. They have lasted perhaps five or six minutes—I think that that is a new record for members' business.

I urge the minister, with his new and onerous responsibilities, to include the case of the Mallaig to Fort William road in the programme to improve the roads of Scotland. It is a compelling and overwhelming case; I believe that it is also unique.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:00:18.3299743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C708969", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26880, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26881, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 380.0, "QuestionHeading": "Petrol Pricing", "QuestionHeadingID": 26899, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 540.0, "DisplayOrder": 540.0, "ID": 26899, "ParentID": 26881 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "20. Fergus Ewing (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 541.0, "ContributionID": 708969, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what representations, if any, it has made to Her Majesty's Government regarding the publication date of the Office of Fair Trading report on petrol pricing in the Highlands and Islands. (S1O-385) The Deputy Minister for Highlands and Islands and Gaelic (Mr Alasdair Morrison): I understand that the Office of Fair Trading is aiming to conclude its work in November. The Executive awaits its conclusions with interest.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what representations, if any, it has made to Her Majesty's Government regarding the publication date of the Office of Fair Trading report on petrol pricing in the Highlands and Islands. (S1O-385) The Deputy Minister for Highlands and Islands and Gaelic (Mr Alasdair Morrison): I understand that the Office of Fair Trading is aiming to conclude its work in November. The Executive awaits its conclusions with interest.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:00:09.4109084+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1870E181P475C708764", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robison, Shona", "ID": 1870, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Shona Robison", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Shona Robison (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 88.0, "ContributionID": 708764, "EditedText": "Given Mr Stone's description of the importance of the teachers' voices, does he agree that it would have been better to have a classroom teacher on the committee of inquiry?", "EditedTextHTML": "Given Mr Stone's description of the importance of the teachers' voices, does he agree that it would have been better to have a classroom teacher on the committee of inquiry?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:01:26.0699041+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1773E197P503C708760", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hyslop, Fiona", "ID": 1773, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona Hyslop", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona Hyslop (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 79.0, "ContributionID": 708760, "EditedText": "Is that the sort of statement that Brian Monteith would make about a male member of this chamber?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is that the sort of statement that Brian Monteith would make about a male member of this chamber?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:01:48.3030692+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C708772", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 106.0, "ContributionID": 708772, "EditedText": "I appreciate that Maureen Macmillan is a teacher and a member of the EIS, and that some of the points that she made are constructive. If there is to be a committee of inquiry, does she agree that the best way to arrive at a solution that is acceptable to teachers, which meets their demands and which addresses their concerns, is to have teachers represented on the committee of inquiry?", "EditedTextHTML": "I appreciate that Maureen Macmillan is a teacher and a member of the EIS, and that some of the points that she made are constructive. If there is to be a committee of inquiry, does she agree that the best way to arrive at a solution that is acceptable to teachers, which meets their demands and which addresses their concerns, is to have teachers represented on the committee of inquiry?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:01:10.1212253+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C708788", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 144.0, "ContributionID": 708788, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:01:10.1212253+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C708812", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 200.0, "ContributionID": 708812, "EditedText": "I must put the record straight, because Mr Macintosh is deliberately misleading this Parliament. I have said on a number of occasions, including this morning, that I support the continuation of the SJNC as the mechanism for negotiating teachers' pay. However, does Mr Macintosh not agree there are a number of issues outstanding from the millennium review—issues raised by both sides in the dispute? Those need to be examined before we can decide where we go from here. That examination is best conducted by the Education, Culture and Sport Committee, which is part of the democratic structure of this Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "I must put the record straight, because Mr Macintosh is deliberately misleading this Parliament. I have said on a number of occasions, including this morning, that I support the continuation of the SJNC as the mechanism for negotiating teachers' pay. However, does Mr Macintosh not agree there are a number of issues outstanding from the millennium review—issues raised by both sides in the dispute? Those need to be examined before we can decide where we go from here. That examination is best conducted by the Education, Culture and Sport Committee, which is part of the democratic structure of this Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:01:10.1212253+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C708815", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 206.0, "ContributionID": 708815, "EditedText": "Mr MacIntosh has made an allegation—", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr MacIntosh has made an allegation—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:01:10.1212253+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C708727", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 11.0, "ContributionID": 708727, "EditedText": "To begin, I would like to say a word or two on why the Scottish National party has chosen as the subject of our Opposition debate this morning the pay and conditions of teachers. I will talk about the reasons for the overwhelming rejection by the teaching profession of the offer made by the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities, and the position that we find ourselves in as a result. There are three reasons for holding this debate. First, and most important, this is without doubt the most serious issue in education at present. From the wording of its amendment, the Executive's tactic will be to deflect attention on to other issues in education. I urge them not to do that. This issue has the potential to derail every other educational initiative that the Executive has in the pipeline. Teachers today are closer to industrial action than they have been at any time in the past 10 years. I do not want to depress the Minister for Children and Education too much so early, but—as someone who was still at school during the previous teachers' strike—I know how devastating and disruptive industrial action will be for every child in every school in Scotland. The second reason is that the SNP's decision to initiate this debate was the only way in which the Parliament would get the chance to vote on this issue and, in particular, on the course of action adopted by the minister. Last week, when the minister announced the establishment of the committee of inquiry into teachers' pay and conditions, and detailed its terms of reference and its membership, he did so by way of ministerial statement, thus ensuring that there would be no debate and no vote. When I expressed regret about that, the minister replied: \"I am also surprised that she objects to the fact that I have brought a statement to this Parliament. I would have thought that that was part of the normal democratic process.\"—Official Report, 22 September 1999; Vol 2, c 627. I would have thought that the \"normal democratic process\" demanded a full and open debate and the chance to vote on whether we thought that the minister was on the right track. That is what happened when a committee was established to look into student finance, under the chairmanship of Andrew Cubie. On 17 June there was a debate followed by a vote on the establishment of the committee, and on 2 July there was another debate on the terms of reference and membership of the committee. Why has that not happened in the case of the committee looking into teachers' pay and conditions? Did the minister feel less than secure in his position and his arguments? Today, we will have the debate. The people of Scotland want the Parliament to debate this issue. In the course of the morning, I think that we will see why the minister was so reluctant to have the debate in the first place. The third reason for having the debate is the need to put the record straight on why we are in this situation and where the responsibility for it rightly rests. For the past few weeks, the education minister—in the best traditions of his predecessors, Tory and Labour—has been doing his utmost to convince the Scottish people that what we have on our hands is a straightforward pay dispute. He has implied that teachers rejected the COSLA offer because they are greedy and intransigent. He has refused point-blank, time and again, to recognise the glaring defects in COSLA's proposals, defects that would have damaged the quality of education in our classrooms. That is a disingenuous approach, and one that, frankly, stands no chance of resolving the dispute. It is time for a bit of honesty from the minister and from the Executive. I hope that we will get that this morning. The hard fact of the matter is that the final offer from COSLA, presented to teachers on 20 August, was defective in a number of key areas. The minister should have accepted that, sent COSLA back to the negotiating table, and given it the wherewithal to compromise. If he was not prepared to do so before 98 per cent of the teaching profession rejected the offer, he should certainly have been prepared to do so immediately afterwards. I would like to refer to a comment that the minister made in his statement last week. \"I must emphasise that this offer did not come from the Executive. We did not formulate the offer; we did not put it on the table. It was the product of discussions between the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities and the teaching unions. I am here neither to support it nor to reject it.\"— Official Report, 22 September 1999; Vol 2, c 624. The only thing that he could have added was: \"A big boy did it and ran away.\" If that statement was not a desperate attempt to pass the buck, I do not know what is. It does not wash: the minister cannot get off the hook that easily.", "EditedTextHTML": "To begin, I would like to say a word or two on why the Scottish National party has chosen as the subject of our Opposition debate this morning the pay and conditions of teachers. I will talk about the reasons for the overwhelming rejection by the teaching profession of the offer made by the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities, and the position that we find ourselves in as a result.

There are three reasons for holding this debate. First, and most important, this is without doubt the most serious issue in education at present. From the wording of its amendment, the Executive's tactic will be to deflect attention on to other issues in education. I urge them not to do that. This issue has the potential to derail every other educational initiative that the Executive has in the pipeline. Teachers today are closer to industrial action than they have been at any time in the past 10 years. I do not want to depress the Minister for Children and Education too much so early, but—as someone who was still at school during the previous teachers' strike—I know how devastating and disruptive industrial action will be for every child in every school in Scotland.

The second reason is that the SNP's decision to initiate this debate was the only way in which the Parliament would get the chance to vote on this issue and, in particular, on the course of action adopted by the minister.

Last week, when the minister announced the establishment of the committee of inquiry into teachers' pay and conditions, and detailed its terms of reference and its membership, he did so by way of ministerial statement, thus ensuring that there would be no debate and no vote. When I expressed regret about that, the minister replied:

\"I am also surprised that she objects to the fact that I have brought a statement to this Parliament. I would have thought that that was part of the normal democratic process.\"—[Official Report, 22 September 1999; Vol 2, c 627.]

I would have thought that the \"normal democratic process\" demanded a full and open debate and the chance to vote on whether we thought that the minister was on the right track. That is what happened when a committee was established to look into student finance, under the

chairmanship of Andrew Cubie. On 17 June there was a debate followed by a vote on the establishment of the committee, and on 2 July there was another debate on the terms of reference and membership of the committee. Why has that not happened in the case of the committee looking into teachers' pay and conditions? Did the minister feel less than secure in his position and his arguments?

Today, we will have the debate. The people of Scotland want the Parliament to debate this issue. In the course of the morning, I think that we will see why the minister was so reluctant to have the debate in the first place.

The third reason for having the debate is the need to put the record straight on why we are in this situation and where the responsibility for it rightly rests. For the past few weeks, the education minister—in the best traditions of his predecessors, Tory and Labour—has been doing his utmost to convince the Scottish people that what we have on our hands is a straightforward pay dispute. He has implied that teachers rejected the COSLA offer because they are greedy and intransigent. He has refused point-blank, time and again, to recognise the glaring defects in COSLA's proposals, defects that would have damaged the quality of education in our classrooms. That is a disingenuous approach, and one that, frankly, stands no chance of resolving the dispute.

It is time for a bit of honesty from the minister and from the Executive. I hope that we will get that this morning. The hard fact of the matter is that the final offer from COSLA, presented to teachers on 20 August, was defective in a number of key areas. The minister should have accepted that, sent COSLA back to the negotiating table, and given it the wherewithal to compromise. If he was not prepared to do so before 98 per cent of the teaching profession rejected the offer, he should certainly have been prepared to do so immediately afterwards.

I would like to refer to a comment that the minister made in his statement last week.

\"I must emphasise that this offer did not come from the Executive. We did not formulate the offer; we did not put it on the table. It was the product of discussions between the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities and the teaching unions. I am here neither to support it nor to reject it.\"— [Official Report, 22 September 1999; Vol 2, c 624.]

The only thing that he could have added was: \"A big boy did it and ran away.\" If that statement was not a desperate attempt to pass the buck, I do not know what is. It does not wash: the minister cannot get off the hook that easily.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:00:59.8834011+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C708733", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Education", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26877, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26877, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 23.0, "ContributionID": 708733, "EditedText": "I will do better than that; I will read from a motion that was passed by SNP- controlled Clackmannanshire Council. The motion says: \"This council notes with concern recent developments in the negotiation of pay and conditions for teachers. In particular, the council does not wish to be associated with attacks on teachers representatives.\" The motion then details the council's concerns. Therefore, no, the SNP councils did not support COSLA's offer. The other aspect of the pay offer that the minister failed to point out is that it has lots of strings attached. The offer of more money—which would last for three years—comes with dramatic changes in working conditions that would last indefinitely. It is important to point out that the teaching profession is not hostile to changes in conditions, and nor should it be. Like any other profession, teachers must move with the times and recognise that the old ways of doing things are not always the best. However, teachers have embraced change. They were enthusiastic participants in the millennium review and they endorsed that review's recommendations. In the course of negotiations on pay and conditions, teachers suggested counterproposals which, had they been accepted, would have improved the final offer. Teachers did not reject the principle of change two weeks ago; they rejected the particular changes proposed in the COSLA offer. Such changes would have damaged the quality of education in our classrooms and the educational experience of children across Scotland. That brings us neatly to children. No doubt the minister would say that children are the first priority, and he would be absolutely right. However, in the past, he has gone on to imply that the interests of children somehow conflict with the interests of teachers. Nothing could be further from the truth. If we put to one side the fact that most teachers are parents and the fact that the working conditions of teachers are the learning conditions of children, the central overriding truth is that teachers and the education system are indivisible. One cannot be attacked without harming the other, which is why teachers were right to reject proposals that were educationally deficient and why the minister was wrong to try to bludgeon teachers into acceptance. Apart from pay, the COSLA offer covered changes in three main areas: to the management structure in schools; to teachers' working hours; and to class sizes. My colleagues will return to those issues later. However, I want to outline briefly some of the reasons why COSLA's proposals were defective. There were proposals to abolish principal teachers, assistant principal teachers and senior teachers—the middle management of schools— and to create a new post of professional leader. I do not know anyone who does not agree with a simplification of the school management structure. However, the COSLA offer would have removed the middle management without a clear idea of what to put in its place. The professional leadership post was vague and ill defined. At a time of considerable curricular change in the form of programmes such as higher still, the offer was a recipe for instability in schools, which is hardly in the pupils' interest. That part of the offer would not have helped the commendable objective of trying to attract more graduates into the teaching profession, which is one of COSLA's stated aims. For reasons that can only be financial, the number of professional leadership posts was to be restricted to 8,000 across nursery, primary and secondary education sectors. However, there are already 7,000 principal teachers and around 4,000 senior and assistant principal teachers. All the professional leadership jobs would have gone to principal teachers, which would have left senior and assistant principal teachers, and any other qualified teacher, on a waiting list. It does not do much for new graduates to be told that, when they come into the profession and climb to the top of the basic scale after five or six years, they will sit in a holding post for goodness knows how many years behind thousands of others waiting for any meaningful promotion. The truth is that those proposals were ill thought out and finessed for financial reasons to the point of being unworkable. Last week, the minister described the issue of class sizes as an old chestnut. It must have slipped the minister's mind that that old chestnut was one of Labour's key pledges at the previous two elections. As has been said in the Parliament, the offer to teachers would have raised the limit on composite class sizes from 25 to 30, which was a move to raise £20 million and had the potential to affect 100,000 children in Scotland. That move runs counter, if not to the letter, then to the spirit of Labour's election pledges. The minister has said that no research shows that kids in composite classes should be in smaller classes. The minister should have a little common sense. Composite classes are an exaggeration of the age range that exists in any class. It is more difficult for teachers to teach classes in which dramatic differences in ability arise from different ages. It stands to reason that smaller classes would alleviate some of that difficulty. That is not just my view; it is the view of parents. Earlier this month, the Scottish Parent Teacher Council said: \"The teachers' determination to stick at a maximum of 25 in composite classes is very much in line with parents' views. At the end of last session, we were inundated with phone calls from parents who were anxious because their child was going into a composite class . . . The only comfort such parents had was that the class numbers were limited to 25.\" The offer would have removed such comfort from parents. The offer was clearly defective in a number of ways. However, I want to move on to the crux of the matter. Why, after so many months of negotiation, were we faced with an offer that was so unacceptable to the teaching profession? In Parliament last week, the minister said: \"It has been suggested that some more money would automatically lead to a solution. I do not believe that money is the real issue\". Let us examine that statement for a moment. The COSLA offer would have added £187 million to local authorities' pay bill for teachers by 200102. The comprehensive spending review provision for teachers' pay over the same period is £120 million. By my arithmetic, that leaves a funding gap of £67 million. In fairness, COSLA has explained how that gap could be reduced to £16 million by 2001-02 by making efficiency savings through other aspects of the offer such as changes in management structure, the increase in composite class sizes and the diversion of money from the flagship excellence fund. In his statement last week, Sam Galbraith said: \"We had guaranteed an additional £8 million to COSLA prior to the last stages of their negotiations to help achieve a settlement\".—Official Report, 22 September 1999; Vol 2, c 624. That still leaves a funding gap of £8 million, which raises two points. The first is a question to the minister. If the offer had been accepted by teachers, where would the additional £8 million have come from? The second point is that, if COSLA could not fund the offer as it stood, it is clear that it had no room at all for manoeuvre. Compromise might have brought about a settlement and avoided the prospect of industrial action by teachers, but that would have cost money that COSLA did not have. The statement that money is not the issue would deserve to be laughed out of Parliament if it was not so serious. In a paper about the funding of the offer, COSLA said: \"There is a need for Scottish Executive assistance in bridging the funding gap.\" Even COSLA is clear about that. The only thing that might have broken the recent deadlock was extra resources from the Executive, which were not forthcoming. Perhaps instead of picking a fight with Scottish teachers, the minister should have picked a more productive fight with Gordon Brown, who is building up a war chest while Scottish teachers are forced ever closer to industrial action. However, the minister is trying to pick a fight with Scottish teachers. The course of action that was announced last week was provocative and doomed to failure. We have a committee of inquiry that does not have the confidence of the teaching profession. This week, the Scottish Trades Union Congress said: \"The composition of this committee of inquiry is staggering in its lack of balance.\" The minister talks about working in partnership with teachers. Those are laudable sentiments; however, the only partner in education not represented on the committee is the classroom teacher in the form of the teaching unions. Why? The committee of inquiry is also subject to the same financial constraints as COSLA, so, in his remarks, the minister might like to explain to the Parliament how he thinks that the committee will come up with a better deal than COSLA managed. The committee is by no stretch of the imagination independent. At least one of its conclusions has been predetermined by the minister. He has already decided to take away the statutory basis of the SJNC. Why? Why not let the committee decide? If a committee of inquiry is being set up, why not let it decide on those issues? The minister seems so sure that the SJNC is indefensible. Why not leave it to the committee to come to the same conclusion? Is it because Mr Galbraith is not confident that the committee will reach the same conclusion, or is it because he decided to remove the SJNC a long time ago, and has been looking for an excuse to do so ever since? I will now read from an extract from The Guardian, taken from an interview with Lord Baker, the former English education secretary under Margaret Thatcher, on 16 September. It begins: \"When Margaret Thatcher moved him\"—Lord Baker—\"to education, he decided to deal with them (the teachers). His first move was quite open. He cut off their muscle.\" I quote Ken Baker:\"I took away all negotiating rights from the union. It was quite brutal.\" The interviewer reflects that Ken Baker chuckled as he recalled how he \"removed their right to negotiate . . . by statute . . . and set up an advisory committee which would set the rates of teacher pay.\"I again quote Ken Baker:\"It was absolutely extreme stuff.\"Does that sound familiar to anybody? The Minister for Children and Education is provoking confrontation with Scottish teachers, and the only people who will suffer at the end of the day are Scotland's children. I ask everybody in this Parliament to reflect on that at decision time this afternoon. I ask the minister to withdraw his threat to the SJNC and to abandon his proposal to set up a hand-picked committee of inquiry. He should let this Parliament's Education, Culture and Sport Committee—a democratic body that all sides of this dispute can have faith in—examine the issue and work towards a settlement that can be accepted by all sides. If teachers take industrial action—I certainly hope that they do not—it will not be possible for the education minister and the Executive to escape responsibility for it. Everything else on its education agenda will be undermined as a result. I hope that the Executive draws back from such a situation, and I hope to hear something more constructive from the minister this morning than has been the case up to now. I move,That the Parliament notes the overwhelming rejection of CoSLA's pay and conditions offer (dated 20 August 1999) by Scotland's teachers, recognises the validity of the concerns expressed by the teaching profession and parents' representatives about the details of CoSLA's offer and agrees that the implementation of the offer in its current form would have resulted in a deterioration of standards in our classrooms and a further decline in teachers' morale; considers that the defects in CoSLA's offer are the result of a lack of resources and that the current impasse between CoSLA and the teaching profession is a direct result of the failure of the Scottish Executive to make sufficient resources available to local government to fund an acceptable settlement and further considers that the approach adopted by the Scottish Executive on this issue has been deliberately provocative to Scotland's teachers; and calls upon the Scottish Executive to adopt a genuine partnership approach to reaching a settlement with teachers, to abandon its proposals to remove the statutory basis of the Scottish Joint Negotiating Committee and establish a Committee of Inquiry, and to refer the findings of the Millennium Review (a joint inquiry established by COSLA and teachers' unions in 1997 to look at various issues in education) for investigation by the Parliament's Education, Culture & Sport Committee.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will do better than that; I will read from a motion that was passed by SNP- controlled Clackmannanshire Council. The motion says:

\"This council notes with concern recent developments in the negotiation of pay and conditions for teachers. In particular, the council does not wish to be associated with attacks on teachers representatives.\"

The motion then details the council's concerns. Therefore, no, the SNP councils did not support COSLA's offer.

The other aspect of the pay offer that the minister failed to point out is that it has lots of strings attached. The offer of more money—which would last for three years—comes with dramatic changes in working conditions that would last indefinitely.

It is important to point out that the teaching profession is not hostile to changes in conditions, and nor should it be. Like any other profession, teachers must move with the times and recognise that the old ways of doing things are not always the best. However, teachers have embraced change. They were enthusiastic participants in the millennium review and they endorsed that review's recommendations. In the course of negotiations on pay and conditions, teachers suggested counterproposals which, had they been accepted, would have improved the final offer. Teachers did not reject the principle of change two weeks ago; they rejected the particular changes proposed in the COSLA offer. Such changes would have damaged the quality of education in our classrooms and the educational experience of children across Scotland.

That brings us neatly to children. No doubt the minister would say that children are the first priority, and he would be absolutely right. However, in the past, he has gone on to imply that the interests of children somehow conflict with the interests of teachers. Nothing could be further from the truth. If we put to one side the fact that most teachers are parents and the fact that the working conditions of teachers are the learning conditions of children, the central overriding truth is that teachers and the education system are indivisible. One cannot be attacked without harming the other, which is why teachers were right to reject proposals that were educationally deficient and why the minister was wrong to try to bludgeon teachers into acceptance.

Apart from pay, the COSLA offer covered changes in three main areas: to the management structure in schools; to teachers' working hours; and to class sizes. My colleagues will return to those issues later. However, I want to outline briefly some of the reasons why COSLA's proposals were defective.

There were proposals to abolish principal teachers, assistant principal teachers and senior teachers—the middle management of schools— and to create a new post of professional leader. I do not know anyone who does not agree with a simplification of the school management structure. However, the COSLA offer would have removed the middle management without a clear idea of what to put in its place. The professional leadership post was vague and ill defined. At a time of considerable curricular change in the form of programmes such as higher still, the offer was a recipe for instability in schools, which is hardly in the pupils' interest.

That part of the offer would not have helped the commendable objective of trying to attract more graduates into the teaching profession, which is one of COSLA's stated aims. For reasons that can only be financial, the number of professional leadership posts was to be restricted to 8,000 across nursery, primary and secondary education sectors. However, there are already 7,000 principal teachers and around 4,000 senior and assistant principal teachers. All the professional leadership jobs would have gone to principal teachers, which would have left senior and assistant principal teachers, and any other qualified teacher, on a waiting list. It does not do much for new graduates to be told that, when they come into the profession and climb to the top of the basic scale after five or six years, they will sit in a holding post for goodness knows how many years behind thousands of others waiting for any meaningful promotion. The truth is that those proposals were ill thought out and finessed for financial reasons to the point of being unworkable.

Last week, the minister described the issue of class sizes as an old chestnut. It must have slipped the minister's mind that that old chestnut was one of Labour's key pledges at the previous two elections. As has been said in the Parliament, the offer to teachers would have raised the limit on composite class sizes from 25 to 30, which was a move to raise £20 million and had the potential to affect 100,000 children in Scotland. That move runs counter, if not to the letter, then to the spirit of Labour's election pledges.

The minister has said that no research shows that kids in composite classes should be in smaller classes. The minister should have a little common sense. Composite classes are an exaggeration of the age range that exists in any class. It is more difficult for teachers to teach classes in which dramatic differences in ability arise from different ages. It stands to reason that smaller classes

would alleviate some of that difficulty. That is not just my view; it is the view of parents. Earlier this month, the Scottish Parent Teacher Council said:

\"The teachers' determination to stick at a maximum of 25 in composite classes is very much in line with parents' views. At the end of last session, we were inundated with phone calls from parents who were anxious because their child was going into a composite class . . . The only comfort such parents had was that the class numbers were limited to 25.\"

The offer would have removed such comfort from parents.

The offer was clearly defective in a number of ways. However, I want to move on to the crux of the matter. Why, after so many months of negotiation, were we faced with an offer that was so unacceptable to the teaching profession? In Parliament last week, the minister said:

\"It has been suggested that some more money would automatically lead to a solution. I do not believe that money is the real issue\".

Let us examine that statement for a moment. The COSLA offer would have added £187 million to local authorities' pay bill for teachers by 2001

02. The comprehensive spending review provision for teachers' pay over the same period is £120 million. By my arithmetic, that leaves a funding gap of £67 million. In fairness, COSLA has explained how that gap could be reduced to £16 million by 2001-02 by making efficiency savings through other aspects of the offer such as changes in management structure, the increase in composite class sizes and the diversion of money from the flagship excellence fund. In his statement last week, Sam Galbraith said: \"We had guaranteed an additional £8 million to COSLA prior to the last stages of their negotiations to help achieve a settlement\".—[Official Report, 22 September 1999; Vol 2, c 624.]

That still leaves a funding gap of £8 million, which raises two points. The first is a question to the minister. If the offer had been accepted by teachers, where would the additional £8 million have come from? The second point is that, if COSLA could not fund the offer as it stood, it is clear that it had no room at all for manoeuvre. Compromise might have brought about a settlement and avoided the prospect of industrial action by teachers, but that would have cost money that COSLA did not have.

The statement that money is not the issue would deserve to be laughed out of Parliament if it was not so serious. In a paper about the funding of the offer, COSLA said:

\"There is a need for Scottish Executive assistance in bridging the funding gap.\"

Even COSLA is clear about that. The only thing that might have broken the recent deadlock was extra resources from the Executive, which were not forthcoming. Perhaps instead of picking a fight with Scottish teachers, the minister should have picked a more productive fight with Gordon Brown, who is building up a war chest while Scottish teachers are forced ever closer to industrial action.

However, the minister is trying to pick a fight with Scottish teachers. The course of action that was announced last week was provocative and doomed to failure. We have a committee of inquiry that does not have the confidence of the teaching profession. This week, the Scottish Trades Union Congress said:

\"The composition of this committee of inquiry is staggering in its lack of balance.\"

The minister talks about working in partnership with teachers. Those are laudable sentiments; however, the only partner in education not represented on the committee is the classroom teacher in the form of the teaching unions. Why? The committee of inquiry is also subject to the same financial constraints as COSLA, so, in his remarks, the minister might like to explain to the Parliament how he thinks that the committee will come up with a better deal than COSLA managed.

The committee is by no stretch of the imagination independent. At least one of its conclusions has been predetermined by the minister. He has already decided to take away the statutory basis of the SJNC. Why? Why not let the committee decide? If a committee of inquiry is being set up, why not let it decide on those issues? The minister seems so sure that the SJNC is indefensible. Why not leave it to the committee to come to the same conclusion? Is it because Mr Galbraith is not confident that the committee will reach the same conclusion, or is it because he decided to remove the SJNC a long time ago, and has been looking for an excuse to do so ever since?

I will now read from an extract from The Guardian, taken from an interview with Lord Baker, the former English education secretary under Margaret Thatcher, on 16 September. It begins:

\"When Margaret Thatcher moved him\"—

Lord Baker—

\"to education, he decided to deal with them (the teachers). His first move was quite open. He cut off their muscle.\"

I quote Ken Baker:

\"I took away all negotiating rights from the union. It was quite brutal.\"

The interviewer reflects that Ken Baker chuckled as he recalled how he

\"removed their right to negotiate . . . by statute . . . and set up an advisory committee which would set the rates of

teacher pay.\"

I again quote Ken Baker:

\"It was absolutely extreme stuff.\"

Does that sound familiar to anybody? The Minister for Children and Education is provoking confrontation with Scottish teachers, and the only people who will suffer at the end of the day are Scotland's children. I ask everybody in this Parliament to reflect on that at decision time this afternoon.

I ask the minister to withdraw his threat to the SJNC and to abandon his proposal to set up a hand-picked committee of inquiry. He should let this Parliament's Education, Culture and Sport Committee—a democratic body that all sides of this dispute can have faith in—examine the issue and work towards a settlement that can be accepted by all sides.

If teachers take industrial action—I certainly hope that they do not—it will not be possible for the education minister and the Executive to escape responsibility for it. Everything else on its education agenda will be undermined as a result. I hope that the Executive draws back from such a situation, and I hope to hear something more constructive from the minister this morning than has been the case up to now.

I move,

That the Parliament notes the overwhelming rejection of CoSLA's pay and conditions offer (dated 20 August 1999) by Scotland's teachers, recognises the validity of the concerns expressed by the teaching profession and parents' representatives about the details of CoSLA's offer and agrees that the implementation of the offer in its current form would have resulted in a deterioration of standards in our classrooms and a further decline in teachers' morale; considers that the defects in CoSLA's offer are the result of a lack of resources and that the current impasse between CoSLA and the teaching profession is a direct result of the failure of the Scottish Executive to make sufficient resources available to local government to fund an acceptable settlement and further considers that the approach adopted by the Scottish Executive on this issue has been deliberately provocative to Scotland's teachers; and calls upon the Scottish Executive to adopt a genuine partnership approach to reaching a settlement with teachers, to abandon its proposals to remove the statutory basis of the Scottish Joint Negotiating Committee and establish a Committee of Inquiry, and to refer the findings of the Millennium Review (a joint inquiry established by COSLA and teachers' unions in 1997 to look at various issues in education) for investigation by the Parliament's Education, Culture & Sport Committee.

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" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:00:59.8834011+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1857E136P222C708931", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26880, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26881, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 380.0, "QuestionHeading": "Housing", "QuestionHeadingID": 26889, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 452.0, "DisplayOrder": 452.0, "ID": 26889, "ParentID": 26881 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeill, Pauline", "ID": 1857, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Kelvin" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Pauline McNeill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Pauline McNeill: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 455.0, "ContributionID": 708931, "EditedText": "Can I say to the minister that I welcome—", "EditedTextHTML": "Can I say to the minister that I welcome—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:02:32.7857179+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1857E136P222C708933", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 30 Sep 1999", "ID": 4182 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-30T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26880, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26881, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 380.0, "QuestionHeading": "Housing", "QuestionHeadingID": 26889, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 452.0, "DisplayOrder": 452.0, "ID": 26889, "ParentID": 26881 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeill, Pauline", "ID": 1857, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Kelvin" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Pauline McNeill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Pauline McNeill: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 459.0, "ContributionID": 708933, "EditedText": "I shall ask a question. How many households will be affected by the proposed legislation?", "EditedTextHTML": "I shall ask a question. How many households will be affected by the proposed legislation?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:02:32.7857179+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1756E184P464C708632", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Grahame, Christine", "ID": 1756, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Christine Grahame", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 168.0, "ContributionID": 708632, "EditedText": "Will Mr Harper take an intervention?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr Harper take an intervention?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:01:31.7066757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1756E184P464C708645", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Grahame, Christine", "ID": 1756, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Christine Grahame", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 196.0, "ContributionID": 708645, "EditedText": "Mr McLeish's motion contains fine words, but I want to put them to a factual test. I will resist his invitation not to refer to a geographical area and take him back to that most fragile economy, the Borders. The cashmere industry and electronics are two key areas in which the test of those fine words will be applied. As Mr McLeish knows—he has visited often enough—there are very high levels of employment, and therefore a high proportion of skills, in textiles, which is a declining industry. He is also familiar with the background to the electronics industry. A very good company, Exacta, was bought over by Viasystems, which was a predatory investment company. Viasystems closed the plant down when it was profitable, moved on and left a thousand people out of work. However, there is a very good indigenous company in the Borders that requires to expand. I will ask Mr McLeish about those areas to establish whether his report card will pass at the end of the year. The Borders has the lowest level of industrial investment per employee in Scotland—that is a fact. I hope that the Borders press will also note the fact that neither of the MSPs for the Borders, nor any other Liberal Democrat MSP, is present. A haulier told me that 4 to 5 per cent is added to his costs because of the fuel escalator and that he cannot recover it from the suppliers he transports for. That is another burden that the Borders does not need—people there do not need green measures, they need work. There is a need for information technologies to be modernised in the Borders. Until I spoke to Scottish Borders Enterprise, I had not appreciated that it is because there is no competition for Scottish Telecom from other suppliers that there is great difficulty upgrading the networks. Young people leaving the Borders influences the Borders economy. I wonder why they are leaving. The area has the highest proportions of people over 65 and over 75 in Scotland. Specific examples that I would like Mr McLeish to take note of are Viasystems and Signum Circuits. Mr McLeish sighs when I come back to that. Henry McLeish indicated disagreement.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr McLeish's motion contains fine words, but I want to put them to a factual test. I will resist his invitation not to refer to a geographical area and take him back to that most fragile economy, the Borders. The cashmere industry and electronics are two key areas in which the test of those fine words will be applied.

As Mr McLeish knows—he has visited often enough—there are very high levels of employment, and therefore a high proportion of skills, in textiles, which is a declining industry. He is also familiar with the background to the electronics industry. A very good company, Exacta, was bought over by Viasystems, which was a predatory investment company. Viasystems closed the plant down when it was profitable, moved on and left a thousand people out of work. However, there is a very good indigenous company in the Borders that requires to expand. I will ask Mr McLeish about those areas to establish whether his report card will pass at the end of the year.

The Borders has the lowest level of industrial investment per employee in Scotland—that is a fact. I hope that the Borders press will also note the fact that neither of the MSPs for the Borders, nor any other Liberal Democrat MSP, is present.

A haulier told me that 4 to 5 per cent is added to his costs because of the fuel escalator and that he cannot recover it from the suppliers he transports for. That is another burden that the Borders does not need—people there do not need green measures, they need work.

There is a need for information technologies to be modernised in the Borders. Until I spoke to Scottish Borders Enterprise, I had not appreciated that it is because there is no competition for Scottish Telecom from other suppliers that there is great difficulty upgrading the networks. Young people leaving the Borders influences the Borders economy. I wonder why they are leaving. The area has the highest proportions of people over 65 and over 75 in Scotland.

Specific examples that I would like Mr McLeish to take note of are Viasystems and Signum Circuits. Mr McLeish sighs when I come back to that.

Henry McLeish indicated disagreement.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:01:31.7066757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1756E184P464C708646", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Grahame, Christine", "ID": 1756, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Christine Grahame", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Christine Grahame: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 198.0, "ContributionID": 708646, "EditedText": "I am glad he does not. I understand that negotiations for the lease of the Dunsdale site in Selkirk are still under way. I thought that they had been concluded. They must be, and regional selective assistance must be given to Signum Circuits to take on additional Viasystems workers. Thirty have already been taken on; Signum Circuits has 210 employees and could double that. That would be investing in manufacturing. I understand that Viasystems is holding up the sale of the Gala site, which Scottish Borders Enterprise wants to purchase. I am told that the price is quite inflated. I do not know what is behind that and I hope Mr McLeish can do something about it and that Viasystems will be realistic and not hold recovery in the Borders to ransom. It has already done enough damage to the area. As to textiles, there is a cashmere promotion in London at the moment, at Harrods. The industry is facing great problems. It wants to change from quantity to quality. That would involve a campus of Heriot-Watt University to develop research not just into design but in fibres and materials, creating a centre of excellence for textile development in Scotland. Those are some of the things I want Mr McLeish to address: in summary, a cashmere task force; assistance to Signum Circuits; and a national transport strategy that includes a railway line to the Borders. SBE says that that is not an option but a necessity. In the meantime, at the very least an upgrading of the A68 and the A7, with more crawler lanes, is needed. Finally, just tell the people of the Borders that interest rates are overheating—it is gey cauld down there.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am glad he does not. I understand that negotiations for the lease of the Dunsdale site in Selkirk are still under way. I thought that they had been concluded. They must be, and regional selective assistance must be given to Signum Circuits to take on additional Viasystems workers. Thirty have already been taken on; Signum Circuits has 210 employees and could double that. That would be investing in manufacturing.

I understand that Viasystems is holding up the sale of the Gala site, which Scottish Borders Enterprise wants to purchase. I am told that the price is quite inflated. I do not know what is behind that and I hope Mr McLeish can do something about it and that Viasystems will be realistic and not hold recovery in the Borders to ransom. It has already done enough damage to the area.

As to textiles, there is a cashmere promotion in London at the moment, at Harrods. The industry is facing great problems. It wants to change from quantity to quality. That would involve a campus of Heriot-Watt University to develop research not just into design but in fibres and materials, creating a centre of excellence for textile development in Scotland.

Those are some of the things I want Mr McLeish to address: in summary, a cashmere task force; assistance to Signum Circuits; and a national transport strategy that includes a railway line to the Borders. SBE says that that is not an option but a necessity. In the meantime, at the very least an upgrading of the A68 and the A7, with more crawler lanes, is needed. Finally, just tell the people of the Borders that interest rates are overheating—it is gey cauld down there.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:01:31.7066757+00:00" }, { "ID": "C708554", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Wednesday 29 September 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26872, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26872, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 2.0, "ContributionID": 708554, "EditedText": "THE PRESIDING OFFICER opened the meeting at 14:30", "EditedTextHTML": "[THE PRESIDING OFFICER opened the meeting at 14:30]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4983548+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708556", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Wednesday 29 September 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26872, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26872, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 5.0, "ContributionID": 708556, "EditedText": "I take it that the substance of the point of order is whether I have had notice of a ministerial statement; I have not. The question whether there will be such a statement is a matter for ministers and not for the Presiding Officer. The point made by the member will have been heard. I have two other related matters to put before the Parliament. Today, I wrote to the Convener of the Procedures Committee to express my concern that the standing orders that we are currently using do not allow sufficient flexibility for urgent and topical questions; I know that the committee is already considering that problem. The second item, which we must all take into account, is that this morning the Standards Committee decided \"to meet on Tuesday in private for careful consideration of the matters that have been placed before us, with a view to deciding on the terms of an investigation.\" It has that matter in hand.", "EditedTextHTML": "I take it that the substance of the point of order is whether I have had notice of a ministerial statement; I have not. The question whether there will be such a statement is a matter for ministers and not for the Presiding Officer. The point made by the member will have been heard.

I have two other related matters to put before the Parliament. Today, I wrote to the Convener of the Procedures Committee to express my concern that the standing orders that we are currently using do not allow sufficient flexibility for urgent and topical questions; I know that the committee is already considering that problem.

The second item, which we must all take into account, is that this morning the Standards Committee decided

\"to meet on Tuesday in private for careful consideration of the matters that have been placed before us, with a view to deciding on the terms of an investigation.\"

It has that matter in hand.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4983548+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C708559", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Wednesday 29 September 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26872, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26872, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 11.0, "ContributionID": 708559, "EditedText": "No, it is not a speech. As you have just intimated to the Parliament, the matter is being considered by the Standards Committee. To assist the committee in determining the scope of its deliberations, will you make a ruling as to the terms of the remit? Perhaps you can clarify whether the committee's remit to report on and examine members' conduct in relation to \"any code of conduct\" covers matters relating to the Scottish ministerial code, bearing it in mind that in statements issued to the press by, or on behalf of, the First Minister and the Minister for Finance, the Standards Committee has been invited to investigate any allegations in the published material.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, it is not a speech. As you have just intimated to the Parliament, the matter is being considered by the Standards Committee. To assist the committee in determining the scope of its deliberations, will you make a ruling as to the terms of the remit? Perhaps you can clarify whether the committee's remit to report on and examine members' conduct in relation to \"any code of conduct\" covers matters relating to the Scottish ministerial code, bearing it in mind that in statements issued to the press by, or on behalf of, the First Minister and the Minister for Finance, the Standards Committee has been invited to investigate any allegations in the published material.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4983548+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C708566", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning (Henry McLeish): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 27.0, "ContributionID": 708566, "EditedText": "Let us move on to more consensual material. Manufacturing is seen by some people as being less important than the service sector. It is easy to see why many people have that perception. Employment in the sector has been in slow decline, despite the growth in electronics. More recently—", "EditedTextHTML": "Let us move on to more consensual material.

Manufacturing is seen by some people as being less important than the service sector. It is easy to see why many people have that perception. Employment in the sector has been in slow decline, despite the growth in electronics. More recently—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C708567", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 29.0, "ContributionID": 708567, "EditedText": "On a point of order, Presiding Officer. As Mr McLeish rose to speak on this very important issue, the First Minister vacated his place. Is not that an insult to Mr McLeish?", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order, Presiding Officer. As Mr McLeish rose to speak on this very important issue, the First Minister vacated his place. Is not that an insult to Mr McLeish?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C708570", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan (Falkirk West): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 35.0, "ContributionID": 708570, "EditedText": "You should be so lucky.", "EditedTextHTML": "You should be so lucky.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C708571", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 37.0, "ContributionID": 708571, "EditedText": "What better compliment can one have? Employment in the sector has been in slow decline, despite the growth in electronics. More recently, as we have seen from a number of headline-grabbing closures, manufacturing has gone through some testing times. The announcement by Levi Strauss last week was a sharp reminder of the problems, particularly in sectors that are caught in the pincer movement of declining markets and cheaper production costs in low-wage labour markets overseas. All that illustrates a view that I do not share. There is a more optimistic and accurate view of manufacturing in the last few months of this millennium. We have manufacturing companies that are world class and others that have the potential to be so. The sector still employs 300,000 people—just under one in six of all jobs in Scotland—and a further 130,000 service jobs are dependent on the sector. That means that 430,000 jobs are allied to manufacturing one way or the other, which is important from an employment perspective. Overall, manufacturing output is growing faster in Scotland than it is in the rest of the UK, and exports are up. I firmly believe that the manufacturing sector will remain a main driver of our economy for many decades. I will take some time to explain why, and what this Parliament and the Executive can do to help. It is clear that a vibrant future cannot be achieved without change. Industry needs to modernise, invest and seek new opportunities. It must fully embrace the need to pursue innovation and the development of skills. Of course, it needs to embrace the knowledge economy. We all need to take the sector more seriously—for instance, when we shape the career choices of our children. The Executive and the Parliament need to ask what we can do to help industry change, to improve its profile, and to help our economy move from low-value-added work to the knowledge- driven industries of the future. We are asked to shape our economy for the 21st century. We need to sharpen our competitive edge and boost productivity. My recent trip to America highlighted the need for industry to recognise that we live in a world where there is harsher competition and more rapid technological change than ever before. If one element of the trip had an impact on me, it was the incredible rate of technological change and the ability in the United States to get products from the lab to the marketplace. To succeed, we must be more enterprising. We must encourage more small businesses, more entrepreneurs, more investment—whether domestic or inward—and more innovations that become new businesses. It is only through modernisation that a stronger Scottish economy can be built and that the high and stable levels of growth and employment that we want in the economy of the future can be achieved. Colleagues in all parts of the Parliament can sign up for that aspiration. We might have differences of emphasis and differences over the shape of the vision, but I hope that today we will send a powerful message to manufacturers and employees: we want to help to secure the benefits for which they are striving day in, day out. Only new approaches will help us to rise to the new challenges. I am determined to ensure that the manufacturing sector continues to play an important part in delivering jobs and prosperity for the Scottish economy. For that reason, I have established a group of business leaders and trade unionists to develop, in partnership, a manufacturing strategy for Scotland. At our first meeting earlier this month, we hammered out the scope of our work and set a testing timetable to produce an action plan for implementation from next year. The strategy will examine competitiveness and productivity; the use of knowledge and technology; skills and people; the business environment, including the crucial role of small businesses; and the science base and its commercialisation. We want to build on the pathfinder initiative, which was developed before the Parliament was established, and both produce an overarching strategy for the whole sector and consider the needs of particular sub-sectors. We shall be looking critically at existing support, the need for additional support and possibilities for removing unnecessary burdens on the sector.", "EditedTextHTML": "What better compliment can one have?

Employment in the sector has been in slow decline, despite the growth in electronics. More recently, as we have seen from a number of headline-grabbing closures, manufacturing has gone through some testing times.

The announcement by Levi Strauss last week was a sharp reminder of the problems, particularly in sectors that are caught in the pincer movement of declining markets and cheaper production costs in low-wage labour markets overseas.

All that illustrates a view that I do not share. There is a more optimistic and accurate view of manufacturing in the last few months of this millennium. We have manufacturing companies that are world class and others that have the potential to be so. The sector still employs 300,000 people—just under one in six of all jobs in Scotland—and a further 130,000 service jobs are dependent on the sector. That means that 430,000 jobs are allied to manufacturing one way or the other, which is important from an employment perspective.

Overall, manufacturing output is growing faster in Scotland than it is in the rest of the UK, and exports are up. I firmly believe that the manufacturing sector will remain a main driver of our economy for many decades. I will take some time to explain why, and what this Parliament and the Executive can do to help.

It is clear that a vibrant future cannot be achieved without change. Industry needs to modernise, invest and seek new opportunities. It must fully embrace the need to pursue innovation and the development of skills. Of course, it needs to embrace the knowledge economy. We all need to take the sector more seriously—for instance, when we shape the career choices of our children. The Executive and the Parliament need to ask what we can do to help industry change, to improve its profile, and to help our economy move from low-value-added work to the knowledge- driven industries of the future. We are asked to shape our economy for the 21st century. We need to sharpen our competitive edge and boost productivity.

My recent trip to America highlighted the need for industry to recognise that we live in a world where there is harsher competition and more rapid technological change than ever before. If one element of the trip had an impact on me, it was the incredible rate of technological change and the ability in the United States to get products from the lab to the marketplace.

To succeed, we must be more enterprising. We must encourage more small businesses, more entrepreneurs, more investment—whether domestic or inward—and more innovations that become new businesses.

It is only through modernisation that a stronger Scottish economy can be built and that the high and stable levels of growth and employment that we want in the economy of the future can be achieved. Colleagues in all parts of the Parliament can sign up for that aspiration. We might have differences of emphasis and differences over the shape of the vision, but I hope that today we will send a powerful message to manufacturers and employees: we want to help to secure the benefits for which they are striving day in, day out. Only new approaches will help us to rise to the new challenges.

I am determined to ensure that the manufacturing sector continues to play an important part in delivering jobs and prosperity for the Scottish economy. For that reason, I have established a group of business leaders and trade unionists to develop, in partnership, a manufacturing strategy for Scotland. At our first meeting earlier this month, we hammered out the

scope of our work and set a testing timetable to produce an action plan for implementation from next year. The strategy will examine competitiveness and productivity; the use of knowledge and technology; skills and people; the business environment, including the crucial role of small businesses; and the science base and its commercialisation.

We want to build on the pathfinder initiative, which was developed before the Parliament was established, and both produce an overarching strategy for the whole sector and consider the needs of particular sub-sectors. We shall be looking critically at existing support, the need for additional support and possibilities for removing unnecessary burdens on the sector.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C708574", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Murray Tosh (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 43.0, "ContributionID": 708574, "EditedText": "Does the minister accept that this context makes it clear that the provision of strategic transport links is a role for the Scottish Parliament and Executive? A Government policy of no funding for transport improvements before 2004 or 2005 fails to address a critical condition for economic competitiveness and the expansion of manufacturing.", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the minister accept that this context makes it clear that the provision of strategic transport links is a role for the Scottish Parliament and Executive? A Government policy of no funding for transport improvements before 2004 or 2005 fails to address a critical condition for economic competitiveness and the expansion of manufacturing.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C708575", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 45.0, "ContributionID": 708575, "EditedText": "That is an unduly pessimistic view. Sarah Boyack will publish in the near future the result of trunk roads review, which will be vital in prioritising the roads that need to be tackled. We have published a transportation paper that will generate discussion. This morning, I met members of the Institute of Directors who raised similar concerns, which I was happy to take on board and to pass to my colleague. I reassured them that it is vital for industry that we have a roads infrastructure and programme that will support the objectives that I am setting out. There will be opportunities in the future to discuss the issue; I recognise that transport is vital to industrial development. There is consensus on the importance of the knowledge economy. Science, the commercial exploitation of science and business innovation are key components of the development of a modern, knowledge-driven economy. It is no longer possible to compete by carrying out routine manufacturing tasks more cheaply than countries with low wages. Knowledge, know-how and brands are fast overtaking buildings and machinery as key assets of business. That is true for existing manufacturing as much as for new, high-technology companies and services. We are expanding the work done by Gus Macdonald's knowledge economy task force, by producing an action plan to develop the knowledge economy by February 2000. Closely linked to that is the complementary issue of our science base. We already have an excellent science base, but there is no doubt that we need to exploit it better, so that it feeds more efficiently into the knowledge economy. I saw on my American trip that a powerful, university/industry community has been built up at silicon valley. In Scotland, we too have world-class universities and industries; we can work as a community as well, to ensure that we get products from the lab into the marketplace at the earliest opportunity. It is quite breathtaking to see the speed with which that is done in silicon valley, which is a model that would be difficult to transfer, but one from which important lessons can be learned. That was part of the thinking behind our announcement to set up a science strategy review group.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is an unduly pessimistic view. Sarah Boyack will publish in the near future the result of trunk roads review, which will be vital in prioritising the roads that need to be tackled. We have published a transportation paper that will generate discussion. This morning, I met members of the Institute of Directors who raised similar concerns, which I was happy to take on board and to pass to my colleague. I reassured them that it is vital for industry that we have a roads infrastructure and programme that will support the objectives that I am setting out. There will be opportunities in the future to discuss the issue; I recognise that transport is vital to industrial development.

There is consensus on the importance of the knowledge economy. Science, the commercial exploitation of science and business innovation are key components of the development of a modern, knowledge-driven economy. It is no longer possible to compete by carrying out routine manufacturing tasks more cheaply than countries with low wages. Knowledge, know-how and brands are fast overtaking buildings and machinery as key assets of business. That is true for existing manufacturing as much as for new, high-technology companies and services. We are expanding the work done by Gus Macdonald's knowledge economy task force, by producing an action plan to develop the knowledge economy by February 2000.

Closely linked to that is the complementary issue of our science base. We already have an excellent science base, but there is no doubt that we need to exploit it better, so that it feeds more efficiently into the knowledge economy. I saw on my American trip that a powerful, university/industry community has been built up at silicon valley. In Scotland, we too have world-class universities and industries; we can work as a community as well, to ensure that we get products from the lab into the marketplace at the earliest opportunity. It is quite breathtaking to see the speed with which that is done in silicon valley,

which is a model that would be difficult to transfer, but one from which important lessons can be learned.

That was part of the thinking behind our announcement to set up a science strategy review group.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C708576", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 47.0, "ContributionID": 708576, "EditedText": "Does the minister agree that another ingredient of silicon valley's success is the support that is given by the public sector, along with industry and academia? Expenditure in California and other US states is increasing on such projects. How does the minister reconcile that with the actual and planned cuts in Scottish Enterprise's budget?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the minister agree that another ingredient of silicon valley's success is the support that is given by the public sector, along with industry and academia? Expenditure in California and other US states is increasing on such projects. How does the minister reconcile that with the actual and planned cuts in Scottish Enterprise's budget?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708579", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 53.0, "ContributionID": 708579, "EditedText": "Mr Swinney, interventions—especially if they are from members who are hoping to speak next—are meant to be short.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Swinney, interventions—especially if they are from members who are hoping to speak next—are meant to be short.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708584", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 63.0, "ContributionID": 708584, "EditedText": "Members might have noticed that a momentary technical glitch caused us to lose a few words of Henry McLeish's speech. The same glitch has removed from my screen all information about members who wish to speak. Those who wish to speak in the debate should push their buttons now. The number of members who want to speak is greater than the number we can possibly call. However, if members limit their speeches to four minutes, we might get everybody in. The next speaker, who is moving the amendment in a speech 10 minutes in length, is John Swinney. Interruption.", "EditedTextHTML": "Members might have noticed that a momentary technical glitch caused us to lose a few words of Henry McLeish's speech. The same glitch has removed from my screen all information about members who wish to speak.

Those who wish to speak in the debate should push their buttons now.

The number of members who want to speak is greater than the number we can possibly call. However, if members limit their speeches to four minutes, we might get everybody in.

The next speaker, who is moving the amendment in a speech 10 minutes in length, is John Swinney. [Interruption.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C708590", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 76.0, "ContributionID": 708590, "EditedText": "In addition to the added burdens that Mr Swinney has addressed, there are other burdens such as social charges and high personal taxation. He supports additional social charges and, at the last election, his party supported additional personal taxation. How can he talk about competitiveness when he supports such policies?", "EditedTextHTML": "In addition to the added burdens that Mr Swinney has addressed, there are other burdens such as social charges and high personal taxation. He supports additional social charges and, at the last election, his party supported additional personal taxation. How can he talk about competitiveness when he supports such policies?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C708592", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan (Glasgow) (SSP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 80.0, "ContributionID": 708592, "EditedText": "Under MrGallie's Government, the top 20 per cent in our society reduced the proportion of their income paid in taxation from 41 per cent to 36 per cent. The level of taxation that the bottom 20 per cent of our society paid on their income increased from 27 per cent to 39 per cent. Will Mr Swinney agree that it is shocking that the top 20 per cent in our society now pay less in tax than the bottom 20 per cent?", "EditedTextHTML": "Under Mr

Gallie's Government, the top 20 per cent in our society reduced the proportion of their income paid in taxation from 41 per cent to 36 per cent. The level of taxation that the bottom 20 per cent of our society paid on their income increased from 27 per cent to 39 per cent. Will Mr Swinney agree that it is shocking that the top 20 per cent in our society now pay less in tax than the bottom 20 per cent?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C708600", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Annabel Goldie (West of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 97.0, "ContributionID": 708600, "EditedText": "I welcome both this motion and the minister's constructively articulated comments. They are in character with the minister, and we endorse much of what he said. As a prophet observed, minister, for every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven. The purpose of this debate, on our part, is bluntness—bluntness that the minister will understand is not directed at him. We support the motion. Indeed, it is a good motion that represents fine words. It suggests that everything in the garden is rosy; all is tickety-boo. However, just as a garden is not created by reading three pages of horticultural specification followed by fencing off an area, flinging some plants in and erecting a sign marked \"Garden\", so a vibrant manufacturing sector is not created by pulling out a map of Scotland, marking off some areas with a red pen and a few asterisks, adding some cheery comments and then tucking it away in a filing cabinet marked \"Scotland's vibrant manufacturing and industrial sector\". Industry needs a congenial climate; it needs fertile conditions; it needs protection from its own form of bugs and leaf rot. It also needs a gardener, in the form of a Government that is sensitive to its needs. We must examine whether the words of this motion are matched by the acts of new Labour. The first signs were encouraging.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome both this motion and the minister's constructively articulated comments. They are in character with the minister, and we endorse much of what he said. As a prophet observed, minister, for every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven. The purpose of this debate, on our part, is bluntness—bluntness that the minister will understand is not directed at him.

We support the motion. Indeed, it is a good motion that represents fine words. It suggests that everything in the garden is rosy; all is tickety-boo. However, just as a garden is not created by reading three pages of horticultural specification followed by fencing off an area, flinging some plants in and erecting a sign marked \"Garden\", so a vibrant manufacturing sector is not created by pulling out a map of Scotland, marking off some areas with a red pen and a few asterisks, adding some cheery comments and then tucking it away in a filing cabinet marked \"Scotland's vibrant manufacturing and industrial sector\".

Industry needs a congenial climate; it needs fertile conditions; it needs protection from its own form of bugs and leaf rot. It also needs a gardener, in the form of a Government that is sensitive to its needs. We must examine whether the words of this motion are matched by the acts of new Labour. The first signs were encouraging.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C708602", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Goldie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 101.0, "ContributionID": 708602, "EditedText": "You will understand, Ms Ferguson, if I say that I feel nervous. I shall give way.", "EditedTextHTML": "You will understand, Ms Ferguson, if I say that I feel nervous. I shall give way.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C708603", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 103.0, "ContributionID": 708603, "EditedText": "I thank Miss Goldie. The minister talked about the leverage of private sector funds, and about linking that to public expenditure. He talked about the modern apprenticeships that our party introduced. He talked about the principle of skillseekers and individuals carrying training cash with them. He talked about getting rid of red tape and regulations. Surely those are all good Tory policies, and Miss Goldie is right in supporting the motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank Miss Goldie. The minister talked about the leverage of private sector funds, and about linking that to public expenditure. He talked about the modern apprenticeships that our party introduced. He talked about the principle of skillseekers and individuals carrying training cash with them. He talked about getting rid of red tape and regulations. Surely those are all good Tory policies, and Miss Goldie is right in supporting the motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C708604", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Goldie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 105.0, "ContributionID": 708604, "EditedText": "Thank you, Mr Gallie. I am beginning to feel redundant already.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you, Mr Gallie. I am beginning to feel redundant already.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C708610", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Goldie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 117.0, "ContributionID": 708610, "EditedText": "We have been perfectly frank: we introduced the fuel escalator in good faith, as did other powers who were party to the Kyoto conference. At that time—a significant number of years ago—it was a well-intended environmental measure. The passage of time has shown that the fuel escalator has had no impact on the environment whatsoever. Gordon Brown is using it to elicit from people the equivalent of 9p in income tax. I do not call that fair or honest. On transport, in the absence of specific proposals for our existing road system—albeit that the minister's remarks indicate that proposals may be forthcoming—there is little comfort for manufacturing and industry. We have a public transport system that, at the moment, is inadequate. I think everyone is agreed on that.", "EditedTextHTML": "We have been perfectly frank: we introduced the fuel escalator in good faith, as did other powers who were party to the Kyoto conference. At that time—a significant number of years ago—it was a well-intended environmental measure. The passage of time has shown that the fuel escalator has had no impact on the environment whatsoever. Gordon Brown is using it to elicit from people the equivalent of 9p in income tax. I do not call that fair or honest.

On transport, in the absence of specific proposals for our existing road system—albeit that the minister's remarks indicate that proposals may be forthcoming—there is little comfort for manufacturing and industry. We have a public transport system that, at the moment, is inadequate. I think everyone is agreed on that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C708614", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ms Patricia Ferguson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 125.0, "ContributionID": 708614, "EditedText": "Miss Goldie, please begin to wind up.", "EditedTextHTML": "Miss Goldie, please begin to wind up.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C708618", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon (Argyll and Bute) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 135.0, "ContributionID": 708618, "EditedText": "I welcome this debate on the manufacturing strategy. It is important to underline the Executive's determination to strengthen Scotland's manufacturing base. We must remember that, although the manufacturing base has declined over the past 18 years, it still represents 22 per cent of Scotland's gross domestic product. Indeed, the combined manufacturing and construction sector accounts for a greater proportion of Scotland's GDP than in it does for the GDP of any other part of the UK—it is a very important player. Although the manufacturing sector has shrunk over the past years—much of that shrinkage was a result of the policies implemented by the previous Administration—it is important that we recognise that many manufacturing firms have outsourced many of their activities. That has meant a transfer from the manufacturing sector to the service sector. For our economy to survive and flourish, it is vital that we have a strong manufacturing base and that we take steps to rebuild that base after the many years of shrinkage. It is quite clear that Scotland's economy cannot rely exclusively on the service sector. As the minister said, the future of Scotland's manufacturing base does not lie in competing with the emerging economies of eastern Europe or in low-skill jobs. The possibility of our competing head to head in that market is long gone. We must raise our sights. Our manufacturing strategy must be about creating high-quality jobs in high-skill industries. I recently spent an interesting day at Glasgow University examining with staff the commercialisation of on-going research and enterprise projects. I was impressed by the fact that Scotland has world-beating knowledge in its university system. The challenge to the Scottish Executive, the Scottish Parliament and the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee is to translate that knowledge into commercially viable products. We have a golden opportunity to create new jobs and new companies at the top end of the marketplace. That is where our future lies. There are barriers to translating knowledge into commercial projects. I welcome, therefore, the announcement by Scottish Enterprise that an extra £11 million will be made available to higher education establishments and research institutes to help them to translate ideas into products. My final point, which was raised by previous speakers, concerns the exchange rate. In the latest \"TSB Business Monitor\", concerns about the exchange rate were again expressed. In production businesses, such concerns have grown year on year. The exchange rate is the fundamental problem facing the primary sector— agriculture, fishing and timber—which features prominently in my constituency. Those businesses will return to commercial viability only when we have a more realistic exchange rate. The pound is still over-valued by 15 to 17 per cent. There is only one way in which to achieve a more realistic exchange rate. The three political parties in Scotland who favour the UK's joining the euro must confront the Tory Eurosceptics head on and put forward clear arguments in support of joining when the exchange rate is at the appropriate level.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome this debate on the manufacturing strategy. It is important to underline the Executive's determination to strengthen Scotland's manufacturing base. We must remember that, although the manufacturing base has declined over the past 18 years, it still represents 22 per cent of Scotland's gross domestic product. Indeed, the combined manufacturing and construction sector accounts for a greater proportion of Scotland's GDP than in it does for the GDP of any other part of the UK—it is a very important player.

Although the manufacturing sector has shrunk over the past years—much of that shrinkage was a result of the policies implemented by the previous Administration—it is important that we recognise that many manufacturing firms have outsourced many of their activities. That has meant a transfer from the manufacturing sector to the service sector. For our economy to survive and flourish, it is vital that we have a strong manufacturing base and that we take steps to rebuild that base after the many years of shrinkage. It is quite clear that Scotland's economy cannot rely exclusively on the service sector.

As the minister said, the future of Scotland's manufacturing base does not lie in competing with the emerging economies of eastern Europe or in low-skill jobs. The possibility of our competing head to head in that market is long gone. We must raise our sights. Our manufacturing strategy must be about creating high-quality jobs in high-skill industries.

I recently spent an interesting day at Glasgow University examining with staff the commercialisation of on-going research and enterprise projects. I was impressed by the fact that Scotland has world-beating knowledge in its university system. The challenge to the Scottish Executive, the Scottish Parliament and the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee is to translate that knowledge into commercially viable products. We have a golden opportunity to create new jobs and new companies at the top end of the marketplace. That is where our future lies.

There are barriers to translating knowledge into commercial projects. I welcome, therefore, the

announcement by Scottish Enterprise that an extra £11 million will be made available to higher education establishments and research institutes to help them to translate ideas into products.

My final point, which was raised by previous speakers, concerns the exchange rate. In the latest \"TSB Business Monitor\", concerns about the exchange rate were again expressed. In production businesses, such concerns have grown year on year. The exchange rate is the fundamental problem facing the primary sector— agriculture, fishing and timber—which features prominently in my constituency. Those businesses will return to commercial viability only when we have a more realistic exchange rate. The pound is still over-valued by 15 to 17 per cent.

There is only one way in which to achieve a more realistic exchange rate. The three political parties in Scotland who favour the UK's joining the euro must confront the Tory Eurosceptics head on and put forward clear arguments in support of joining when the exchange rate is at the appropriate level.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C708624", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 148.0, "ContributionID": 708624, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C708625", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 150.0, "ContributionID": 708625, "EditedText": "If I may develop this point, I will let Tommy in in a wee second. The problem is that Labour used interest rates alone to take the sting out of inflation in the southeast. That led Eddie George, the governor of the Bank of England, to comment, in response to a question from a northern journalist, that unemployment in the north was a price worth paying for low inflation in the south. That is a harsh statement from the man who is in charge of the nation's finances.", "EditedTextHTML": "If I may develop this point, I will let Tommy in in a wee second.

The problem is that Labour used interest rates alone to take the sting out of inflation in the southeast. That led Eddie George, the governor of the Bank of England, to comment, in response to a question from a northern journalist, that unemployment in the north was a price worth paying for low inflation in the south. That is a harsh statement from the man who is in charge of the nation's finances.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C708629", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Murray Tosh (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 160.0, "ContributionID": 708629, "EditedText": "I would like to support Henry McLeish's motion and I would also like to agree with much of what Cathy Jamieson said in her thoughtful contribution— although she might be in some difficulty with her comrades for acknowledging that people had shoes to wear when the Tories were in power. I will inject a second note of realism by commenting on the representations that businesses have made to me about their viability, their future and their competitiveness. Like, suspect, everyone else, I find that virtually all the organisations and lobbies that have approached me have talked about transport. We can manufacture, improve our productivity, find new products and attempt to develop them, but none of that will count for anything unless we can move what we make. There is only so much that we can sell to ourselves. Our markets are south of the border, in Europe and overseas and, if we are to have a vibrant manufacturing industry, we need to examine our strategic transport links. I want to pick up on Cathy Jamieson's comments about Girvan's serious difficulties. The same difficulties apply equally to Newton Stewart, to Hawick and to other places in the south of Scotland. That is largely because of the relative isolation of those centres of population. We should also appreciate the fact that Scotland is having the same difficulties in the European Community and in the wider global markets. If we cannot transport our goods, we will not survive and flourish as a nation. I was grateful to Mr McLeish for suggesting, in response to my intervention, that some good news might be coming. I hope that that is true. I welcome the recent good news of fifth freedom rights for Prestwick airport. Air transport will be an important part of our future, not least for the many new manufacturing industries that were established and flourished in the 18 years under the Conservative Government. We also have to examine our road, rail and sea links. We do not talk about our sea links very often, but we have to if we are talking about Europe. There is a degree to which we can move more goods by rail and I have already welcomed the Government's recent initiatives to put more freight on rail. However, as most of our exports will require travel to market by road and/or by ferry, we must examine our roads network and ferry strategies. The reason why I adopted what Mr McLeish called a rather gloomy view about road improvements is that the Government strategy— as far as it can be understood—envisages an injection of capital into road development only in the context of income flows generated by tolls. The Government's transport white paper appears to be based on the notion that that income will come on stream by about 2004-05. Frankly, that is not good enough. When the previous Government left office, the contract for upgrading the A8 to the M8 was measured and tendered and required only a signature. We have lost two years and the impetus of a considerable investment in roads in central Scotland to create a strategic motorway network and allow us to communicate with our English market. We need a guarantee from the minister that real money will be behind the strategic roads review. If we do not get such a guarantee, the review will be only a paper exercise. The time that we have wasted will rebound on us to our long- term disadvantage. Before I finish, I want to mention sea transport. A recent Scottish Enterprise publication indicates the organisation's expectation and concern that, as traffic builds on the English motorway network, it will become more difficult for Scottish companies to send their goods through England to the continent. Scottish Enterprise wants to develop port facilities on the east coast of Scotland to avoid the congestion south of the border. That has to be very important for our economy and it would be useful for the Executive to guarantee that it was considering promoting those transport links and developing that infrastructure. I found a huge amount to agree with in Mr McLeish's speech. All MSPs are broadly on the same side in recognising the importance of manufacturing. However, in the development of a comprehensive industrial strategy, the minister should consider the extreme importance of the transport links that will be the necessary delivery mechanism for our successful industrial future.", "EditedTextHTML": "I would like to support Henry McLeish's motion and I would also like to agree with much of what Cathy Jamieson said in her thoughtful contribution— although she might be in some difficulty with her comrades for acknowledging that people had shoes to wear when the Tories were in power.

I will inject a second note of realism by commenting on the representations that businesses have made to me about their viability, their future and their competitiveness. Like, suspect, everyone else, I find that virtually all the organisations and lobbies that have approached me have talked about transport.

We can manufacture, improve our productivity, find new products and attempt to develop them, but none of that will count for anything unless we can move what we make. There is only so much that we can sell to ourselves. Our markets are south of the border, in Europe and overseas and, if we are to have a vibrant manufacturing industry, we need to examine our strategic transport links.

I want to pick up on Cathy Jamieson's comments about Girvan's serious difficulties. The same difficulties apply equally to Newton Stewart, to Hawick and to other places in the south of Scotland. That is largely because of the relative isolation of those centres of population. We should also appreciate the fact that Scotland is having the same difficulties in the European Community and in the wider global markets. If we cannot transport our goods, we will not survive and flourish as a nation.

I was grateful to Mr McLeish for suggesting, in response to my intervention, that some good news might be coming. I hope that that is true. I welcome the recent good news of fifth freedom rights for Prestwick airport. Air transport will be an important part of our future, not least for the many new manufacturing industries that were established and flourished in the 18 years under the Conservative Government.

We also have to examine our road, rail and sea links. We do not talk about our sea links very often, but we have to if we are talking about Europe. There is a degree to which we can move more goods by rail and I have already welcomed the Government's recent initiatives to put more freight on rail. However, as most of our exports will require travel to market by road and/or by ferry, we must examine our roads network and ferry strategies.

The reason why I adopted what Mr McLeish called a rather gloomy view about road improvements is that the Government strategy— as far as it can be understood—envisages an injection of capital into road development only in the context of income flows generated by tolls. The Government's transport white paper appears to be based on the notion that that income will come on stream by about 2004-05. Frankly, that is not good enough.

When the previous Government left office, the contract for upgrading the A8 to the M8 was measured and tendered and required only a signature. We have lost two years and the impetus

of a considerable investment in roads in central Scotland to create a strategic motorway network and allow us to communicate with our English market. We need a guarantee from the minister that real money will be behind the strategic roads review. If we do not get such a guarantee, the review will be only a paper exercise. The time that we have wasted will rebound on us to our long- term disadvantage.

Before I finish, I want to mention sea transport. A recent Scottish Enterprise publication indicates the organisation's expectation and concern that, as traffic builds on the English motorway network, it will become more difficult for Scottish companies to send their goods through England to the continent. Scottish Enterprise wants to develop port facilities on the east coast of Scotland to avoid the congestion south of the border. That has to be very important for our economy and it would be useful for the Executive to guarantee that it was considering promoting those transport links and developing that infrastructure.

I found a huge amount to agree with in Mr McLeish's speech. All MSPs are broadly on the same side in recognising the importance of manufacturing. However, in the development of a comprehensive industrial strategy, the minister should consider the extreme importance of the transport links that will be the necessary delivery mechanism for our successful industrial future.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2134E160P198C708630", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McMahon, Michael", "ID": 2134, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton North and Bellshill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael McMahon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Michael McMahon (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 163.0, "ContributionID": 708630, "EditedText": "As a member who represents a constituency whose electorate has seen dramatic changes in the industrial landscape over the past few decades—and as a former welder—I am all too aware of the impact of those changes on the individual, the families and the communities that I serve. Scotland's manufacturing base has declined from employing 611,000 in 1978 to employing 303,000 today. The sector now accounts for only a sixth of all jobs in Scotland. Manufacturing jobs are still essential to the success of our diverse international economy, however. In many areas, manufacturing is still the base for economic activity. Indeed, it is linked with many other sectors. The growth of service sector jobs in particular is most welcome and its importance cannot be underestimated. Scottish Enterprise statistics show that 60 per cent of all service sector jobs in Scotland depend on manufacturing. As the sector's main market remains the rest of the UK, I am determined to ensure that those jobs will not be put at risk by the isolationist policies pursued by the Scottish National party. However, I recognise that the downward trend experienced by the manufacturing industry is worrying. That is why I am in favour of a comprehensive strategy to support manufacturing industry. In my native Lanarkshire, 38 per cent of all industrial output is manufacturing based, with engineering accounting for 23 per cent of that figure. We have seen the arrival of a large number of electronics firms, such as Chunghwa Picture Tubes, Orange and Cellnet. However, it is predicted that manufacturing growth will weaken as growth in the electronics sector slows—we need look no further than the example of Lite-On to illustrate that point. Service sector growth is anticipated to be headed by a growth in hotels and the catering and distribution sectors, which are expected to experience high growth in the Lanarkshire economy in the next few years. We can also expect growth in the transport and communications sector, with the proliferation of call centres bringing firms such as Kwik-Fit Insurance Services and Cable and Wireless Communications to Lanarkshire. Sixty per cent of all production in the North Lanarkshire economy is non-manufacturing based. Employment overall is expected to rise on the back of non-manufacturing jobs, while manufacturing employment is expected to decline. That is not only my view; it is the view of Lanarkshire Development Agency, as expressed in a constituency audit for Hamilton North and Bellshill earlier this year. With that in mind, I urge the Scottish Executive to advance manufacturing strategy in two ways. First, it should seek to defend and expand the existing manufacturing base. Secondly, it should continue to promote the growth of new industries. It is important that incentives are available to our existing manufacturing industries to encourage them to invest in new technologies and new methods of production. Our industries must be able to accommodate the challenges ahead in what are ever-changing markets. I envisage that the new industries of the future will result from organic growth. It is essential that erstwhile entrepreneurs are not stifled at the idea stage because of a lack of funds or good advice. I commend Lanarkshire Development Agency for its work in that area but I encourage additional focus on it. Allied to the creation of an investment bank to provide funds for new—primarily manufacturing- based—business projects, that will provide a strong platform for growth and replacements for industries that are in natural decline. The extension of enterprise zone status or its equivalent for manufacturing industries could go a long way to easing Lanarkshire's fears about 2003, when enterprise zone status is phased out. The world's strongest and most durable economies are those with a good history of sustained growth, particularly in the manufacturing sector. The best guarantee for improving employment prospects in Lanarkshire—and in Scotland—is to strengthen our manufacturing base. If that can be achieved at a time when industrial growth is expected, I would have great confidence in the enduring stability of the Scottish economy.", "EditedTextHTML": "As a member who represents a constituency whose electorate has seen dramatic changes in the industrial landscape over the past few decades—and as a former welder—I am all too aware of the impact of those changes on the individual, the families and the communities that I serve. Scotland's manufacturing base has declined from employing 611,000 in 1978 to employing 303,000 today. The sector now accounts for only a sixth of all jobs in Scotland.

Manufacturing jobs are still essential to the success of our diverse international economy, however. In many areas, manufacturing is still the base for economic activity. Indeed, it is linked with many other sectors.

The growth of service sector jobs in particular is most welcome and its importance cannot be underestimated. Scottish Enterprise statistics show that 60 per cent of all service sector jobs in Scotland depend on manufacturing. As the sector's main market remains the rest of the UK, I am determined to ensure that those jobs will not be put at risk by the isolationist policies pursued by the Scottish National party. However, I recognise that the downward trend experienced by the manufacturing industry is worrying. That is why I am in favour of a comprehensive strategy to support manufacturing industry.

In my native Lanarkshire, 38 per cent of all industrial output is manufacturing based, with engineering accounting for 23 per cent of that figure. We have seen the arrival of a large number of electronics firms, such as Chunghwa Picture Tubes, Orange and Cellnet. However, it is predicted that manufacturing growth will weaken as growth in the electronics sector slows—we need look no further than the example of Lite-On to illustrate that point.

Service sector growth is anticipated to be headed by a growth in hotels and the catering and distribution sectors, which are expected to experience high growth in the Lanarkshire economy in the next few years. We can also expect growth in the transport and communications sector, with the proliferation of call centres bringing firms such as Kwik-Fit Insurance Services and Cable and Wireless Communications to Lanarkshire. Sixty per cent of all production in the North Lanarkshire economy is non-manufacturing based. Employment overall is expected to rise on the back of non-manufacturing jobs, while manufacturing employment is expected to decline. That is not only my view; it is the view of Lanarkshire Development Agency, as expressed in a constituency audit for Hamilton North and Bellshill earlier this year.

With that in mind, I urge the Scottish Executive to advance manufacturing strategy in two ways. First, it should seek to defend and expand the existing manufacturing base. Secondly, it should continue to promote the growth of new industries. It is important that incentives are available to our existing manufacturing industries to encourage them to invest in new technologies and new methods of production. Our industries must be able to accommodate the challenges ahead in what are ever-changing markets.

I envisage that the new industries of the future will result from organic growth. It is essential that erstwhile entrepreneurs are not stifled at the idea stage because of a lack of funds or good advice. I commend Lanarkshire Development Agency for its work in that area but I encourage additional focus on it. Allied to the creation of an investment bank to provide funds for new—primarily manufacturing- based—business projects, that will provide a strong platform for growth and replacements for industries that are in natural decline.

The extension of enterprise zone status or its equivalent for manufacturing industries could go a long way to easing Lanarkshire's fears about 2003, when enterprise zone status is phased out. The world's strongest and most durable economies are those with a good history of

sustained growth, particularly in the manufacturing sector. The best guarantee for improving employment prospects in Lanarkshire—and in Scotland—is to strengthen our manufacturing base. If that can be achieved at a time when industrial growth is expected, I would have great confidence in the enduring stability of the Scottish economy.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2090E83P266C708638", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAllion, Mr John", "ID": 2090, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dundee East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John McAllion", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McAllion: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 181.0, "ContributionID": 708638, "EditedText": "Of course the regulations have had an effect—a good one for the workers, which is why they have been introduced. That is the point that most members who have spoken in the debate are making. I welcome the strong support that the minister's motion gives manufacturing and industry. As Henry McLeish will be aware, there are a few free- market dogmatists around who have a far too narrow ideological perspective and who are in danger of disappearing up their own twisted theories. Those people argue that the current laws of economics have been suspended and that we are now being subjected to some kind of massive revolution, mainly through information technology and communications and globalisation, which is killing off manufacturing as we have known it for most of the century. They argue that inflation is dead for ever, that the business cycle has been abolished and that we will get painless and unending economic growth. They say that we are now in a weightless economy in which we do not make anything that is bulky or solid, and in which ideas and innovations are bought and sold. I am not knocking that; I am not opposed to knowledge-based economies, e-commerce or weightless enterprises. They are good things, but they are not everything. There is still an important manufacturing sector, which matters in this country and throughout the UK. I was delighted to hear the minister say that the manufacturing sector is vibrant and that he thinks that it will continue to play a big role in the Scottish economy—not least because many workers in Dundee continue to work in manufacturing. The minister mentioned that there are many world- class manufacturers in Scotland. We have them in Dundee. NCR, which leads the world in automatic telling machines, has announced a new £20 million investment—", "EditedTextHTML": "Of course the regulations have had an effect—a good one for the workers, which is why they have been introduced. That is the point that most members who have spoken in the debate are making.

I welcome the strong support that the minister's motion gives manufacturing and industry. As Henry McLeish will be aware, there are a few free- market dogmatists around who have a far too narrow ideological perspective and who are in danger of disappearing up their own twisted theories.

Those people argue that the current laws of economics have been suspended and that we are now being subjected to some kind of massive revolution, mainly through information technology and communications and globalisation, which is killing off manufacturing as we have known it for most of the century. They argue that inflation is dead for ever, that the business cycle has been abolished and that we will get painless and unending economic growth. They say that we are now in a weightless economy in which we do not make anything that is bulky or solid, and in which ideas and innovations are bought and sold.

I am not knocking that; I am not opposed to knowledge-based economies, e-commerce or weightless enterprises. They are good things, but they are not everything. There is still an important manufacturing sector, which matters in this country and throughout the UK. I was delighted to hear the minister say that the manufacturing sector is vibrant and that he thinks that it will continue to play a big role in the Scottish economy—not least because many workers in Dundee continue to work in manufacturing. The minister mentioned that there are many world- class manufacturers in Scotland. We have them in Dundee. NCR, which leads the world in automatic telling machines, has announced a new £20 million investment—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2090E83P266C708640", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAllion, Mr John", "ID": 2090, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dundee East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John McAllion", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McAllion: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 185.0, "ContributionID": 708640, "EditedText": "I do not have time to take an intervention; I have only four minutes. This is good news about Dundee—Shona should sit back and hear it. NCR will invest £20 million in a new research and development centre in Dundee, because it sees a future for manufacturing in Dundee and the rest of Scotland. One of the most significant plants of Michelin Tyre, which is one of the leading tyre makers in Europe, is in Dundee—it has been there for 25 years and we hope that it will be there for another 25. Despite the problems that Levi Strauss faces in Scotland, it continues to operate successfully out of Dundee. It is excellent that the Government recognises the importance of supporting such manufacturing industry. I am conscious that the Government, particularly the UK Government, has to be aware of the big picture—Gordon Brown never forgets to tell us that. It has to be concerned about inflation, the levels of unemployment—indeed, of employment—the growth rate and the amount of slack in the economy. It must be worried about the danger of inflation in the future.", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not have time to take an intervention; I have only four minutes. This is good news about Dundee—Shona should sit back and hear it. NCR will invest £20 million in a new research and development centre in Dundee, because it sees a future for manufacturing in Dundee and the rest of Scotland.

One of the most significant plants of Michelin Tyre, which is one of the leading tyre makers in Europe, is in Dundee—it has been there for 25 years and we hope that it will be there for another

25. Despite the problems that Levi Strauss faces in Scotland, it continues to operate successfully out of Dundee. It is excellent that the Government recognises the importance of supporting such manufacturing industry. I am conscious that the Government, particularly the UK Government, has to be aware of the big picture—Gordon Brown never forgets to tell us that. It has to be concerned about inflation, the levels of unemployment—indeed, of employment—the growth rate and the amount of slack in the economy. It must be worried about the danger of inflation in the future.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1931E120P189C708647", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Muldoon, Bristow", "ID": 1931, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Livingston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bristow Muldoon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bristow Muldoon (Livingston) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 201.0, "ContributionID": 708647, "EditedText": "I share John McAllion's astonishment at some of the speeches made by Conservative members today. Their concern about unemployment is rather touching, given the two major recessions that they presided over—and they should remember that before they comment on the manufacturing economy in Scotland. They should also remember the interest rates of 10, 12 and even 15 per cent in their period in government—and they have the gall to talk about high interest rates now. On the broader economic question, I hope that we will move towards the single European currency. I warmly welcome Robin Cook's contribution to the Labour party conference. Interruption. I am being heckled for praising my Westminster colleague. The Parliament's recognition of the role manufacturing continues to play in the Scottish economy is very welcome. As Henry McLeish said, manufacturing still represents a sixth of jobs in Scotland. Directly and indirectly, that means about 430,000 jobs. In Livingston, the importance of manufacturing is even greater in that about a third of the jobs in West Lothian—about 18,000 jobs—are in manufacturing. Some of the lessons from West Lothian can be learned by and adapted to the Scottish economy as a whole—particularly the continuing need for us to develop our knowledge and skills base. Among the examples of good practice that I want to mention are Project Alba and the Cadence development, which form an excellent example of the way in which quality, knowledge-based jobs can be attracted to Scotland. For companies such as Cadence Design Systems, a key part of the attraction is the quality, central belt universities that can provide the work force the company relies on. The interaction between Cadence and universities such as Heriot-Watt, Edinburgh, Glasgow and Strathclyde is a particular attraction. Other encouraging examples in West Lothian are the recent announcement, by biotechnology company Quintiles, of 1,500 new jobs over the next four or five years and the role that the Scottish advanced manufacturing centre is playing in developing new skills for the new, higher technology, manufacturing industries. The approach outlined by the Executive is correct; it gives priority to creating more higher education places for our young people and enhancing the number of modern apprenticeships. Between them, those measures will enhance the knowledge and skills base that is essential for us to continue to develop our manufacturing economy. I have concentrated so far on recent manufacturing developments, but I wish to comment briefly on some of the downsides.", "EditedTextHTML": "I share John McAllion's astonishment at some of the speeches made by Conservative members today. Their concern about unemployment is rather touching, given the two major recessions that they presided over—and they should remember that before they comment on the manufacturing economy in Scotland. They should also remember the interest rates of 10, 12 and even 15 per cent in their period in government—and they have the gall to talk about high interest rates now.

On the broader economic question, I hope that we will move towards the single European currency. I warmly welcome Robin Cook's contribution to the Labour party conference. [Interruption.] I am being heckled for praising my Westminster colleague.

The Parliament's recognition of the role manufacturing continues to play in the Scottish economy is very welcome. As Henry McLeish said, manufacturing still represents a sixth of jobs in Scotland. Directly and indirectly, that means about 430,000 jobs. In Livingston, the importance of manufacturing is even greater in that about a third of the jobs in West Lothian—about 18,000 jobs—are in manufacturing. Some of the lessons from West Lothian can be learned by and adapted

to the Scottish economy as a whole—particularly the continuing need for us to develop our knowledge and skills base.

Among the examples of good practice that I want to mention are Project Alba and the Cadence development, which form an excellent example of the way in which quality, knowledge-based jobs can be attracted to Scotland. For companies such as Cadence Design Systems, a key part of the attraction is the quality, central belt universities that can provide the work force the company relies on. The interaction between Cadence and universities such as Heriot-Watt, Edinburgh, Glasgow and Strathclyde is a particular attraction.

Other encouraging examples in West Lothian are the recent announcement, by biotechnology company Quintiles, of 1,500 new jobs over the next four or five years and the role that the Scottish advanced manufacturing centre is playing in developing new skills for the new, higher technology, manufacturing industries.

The approach outlined by the Executive is correct; it gives priority to creating more higher education places for our young people and enhancing the number of modern apprenticeships. Between them, those measures will enhance the knowledge and skills base that is essential for us to continue to develop our manufacturing economy.

I have concentrated so far on recent manufacturing developments, but I wish to comment briefly on some of the downsides.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C708648", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 203.0, "ContributionID": 708648, "EditedText": "Very briefly, please.", "EditedTextHTML": "Very briefly, please.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1962E35P56C708654", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mundell, David", "ID": 1962, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Mundell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David Mundell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 216.0, "ContributionID": 708654, "EditedText": "No, we will not back the amendment, because it will not achieve what Mr Wilson thinks it will. Returning to the situation in Dumfries and Galloway—", "EditedTextHTML": "No, we will not back the amendment, because it will not achieve what Mr Wilson thinks it will.

Returning to the situation in Dumfries and Galloway—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C708655", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 218.0, "ContributionID": 708655, "EditedText": "And you have one minute.", "EditedTextHTML": "And you have one minute.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1828E200P487C708657", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacDonald, Margo", "ID": 1828, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margo MacDonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Margo MacDonald (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 223.0, "ContributionID": 708657, "EditedText": "As John Swinney said, it is impossible to take issue with motherhood and apple pie, so I will take issue with what the motion leaves out, which is that the Parliament believes that a vibrant speech from Henry McLeish on a rapid response unit is a good enough excuse for filling, or half filling, the chamber. The fact that the chamber is half full indicates that a lot of us have more sense than I had given us credit for. The minister missed out one thing, which we may get in his closing speech. He talked about the improved intelligence gathering that we will require if there is to be a strategy for the maintenance of the manufacturing sector and the growth of the Scottish economy in general. One thing that has emerged from this debate is that there are still a lot of shibboleths around, and not a lot of new thinking. Normally John McAllion and I agree on just about everything, but I have to take issue with something that I think he was implying. Henry McLeish and Bristow Muldoon both alluded to it too, when they talked about the split—the demarcation line—between manufacturing and service industries. These days, there is practically no demarcation. The motion refers to manufacturing; is manufacturing about things made from girders, or is it about the software packages made by the Scottish Council for Educational Technology in partnership with Microsoft? Those packages are manufactured products and export products. It is only fair that we should ask the Executive how it defines those sectors of the Scottish economy so that we can evaluate its strategy. We should not talk ourselves down just because of the way in which things are now done. For example, someone working in the kitchens at Digital in Ayrshire 20 years ago would have been counted as part of the manufacturing sector. But there is now a lot of outsourcing—to use another jargon term—which means that a catering company will no doubt be supplying the food to the people who work in that manufacturing industry, and their employees will be counted as part of the service sector. We could do a lot more to give ourselves better statistics on which to dream our dreams and build our schemes. We should all have regard for what Christine Grahame said. We have a centre of excellence in the Borders. It is still producing much better stuff to wear than most other places in the world, but it is supplying a niche market. Although I regret it, it is true that the big growth area will be in the newer technologies, in places such as the Dundee Centre for Medical Education; in Cadence Design Systems in Livingston for leading-edge software; or in Heriot-Watt University for laser technology. I could name an awful lot more. We must not talk down the importance of what to those of us who did not grow up in this part of the century are rather airy-fairy sounding industries. We grew up with men pittin overalls on and going to their work and if they did not do that we wondered what they were doing wi their time. Laughter. Members laugh? There are some folk out there who know that that is the truth. We need much more of the new technology. We should replicate what happened in Austin, Texas. The city was going down the tubes so it turned itself into the brains capital of the United States of America. Why should Scotland not become the brains capital of Europe? We have the potential— it is there in our universities. One thing that is lacking from this strategy is a connection between the creation of the knowledge economy in our universities and our companies that are still involved with manufacturing. I hope that the minister will tell us that he will consider that. Someone once said that it was education, education, education into the next millennium. I think it is also investment, investment, investment. Gordon Brown has saved up a big war chest. Can we get our share now, please, and can we invest it in our economy?", "EditedTextHTML": "As John Swinney said, it is impossible to take issue with motherhood and apple pie, so I will take issue with what the motion leaves out, which is that the Parliament believes that a vibrant speech from Henry McLeish on a rapid response unit is a good enough excuse for filling, or half filling, the chamber. The fact that the chamber is half full indicates that a lot of us have more sense than I had given us credit for.

The minister missed out one thing, which we may get in his closing speech. He talked about the improved intelligence gathering that we will require if there is to be a strategy for the maintenance of the manufacturing sector and the growth of the Scottish economy in general. One thing that has emerged from this debate is that there are still a lot of shibboleths around, and not a lot of new thinking.

Normally John McAllion and I agree on just about everything, but I have to take issue with something that I think he was implying. Henry McLeish and Bristow Muldoon both alluded to it too, when they talked about the split—the demarcation line—between manufacturing and service industries. These days, there is practically no demarcation. The motion refers to manufacturing; is manufacturing about things made from girders, or is it about the software packages made by the Scottish Council for Educational Technology in partnership with

Microsoft? Those packages are manufactured products and export products. It is only fair that we should ask the Executive how it defines those sectors of the Scottish economy so that we can evaluate its strategy.

We should not talk ourselves down just because of the way in which things are now done. For example, someone working in the kitchens at Digital in Ayrshire 20 years ago would have been counted as part of the manufacturing sector. But there is now a lot of outsourcing—to use another jargon term—which means that a catering company will no doubt be supplying the food to the people who work in that manufacturing industry, and their employees will be counted as part of the service sector. We could do a lot more to give ourselves better statistics on which to dream our dreams and build our schemes.

We should all have regard for what Christine Grahame said. We have a centre of excellence in the Borders. It is still producing much better stuff to wear than most other places in the world, but it is supplying a niche market. Although I regret it, it is true that the big growth area will be in the newer technologies, in places such as the Dundee Centre for Medical Education; in Cadence Design Systems in Livingston for leading-edge software; or in Heriot-Watt University for laser technology. I could name an awful lot more.

We must not talk down the importance of what to those of us who did not grow up in this part of the century are rather airy-fairy sounding industries. We grew up with men pittin overalls on and going to their work and if they did not do that we wondered what they were doing wi their time. [Laughter.] Members laugh? There are some folk out there who know that that is the truth.

We need much more of the new technology. We should replicate what happened in Austin, Texas. The city was going down the tubes so it turned itself into the brains capital of the United States of America. Why should Scotland not become the brains capital of Europe? We have the potential— it is there in our universities. One thing that is lacking from this strategy is a connection between the creation of the knowledge economy in our universities and our companies that are still involved with manufacturing. I hope that the minister will tell us that he will consider that.

Someone once said that it was education, education, education into the next millennium. I think it is also investment, investment, investment. Gordon Brown has saved up a big war chest. Can we get our share now, please, and can we invest it in our economy?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1837E108P186C708660", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mulligan, Mary", "ID": 1837, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Linlithgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Mulligan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Mulligan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 230.0, "ContributionID": 708660, "EditedText": "I agree that we must work on that, but the difficulty is that firms often pull back from initiating discussions, particularly when they are moving into difficult circumstances, because they know that it will affect their share price. The other side of changing demand is more positive, because demand for technical development is likely to continue. Many firms in West Lothian are so-called high-tech industries, and companies such as Sun Microsystems and Quintiles are seeing demand for their products grow. However, they know that as technology advances, support for research and development through an industrial strategy will be essential. The aim of an industrial strategy is to have a sound economic base for Scotland. Our aim should also be to ensure that fewer people are unemployed, and for shorter periods. Members of the Government cannot dictate demand, nor are they entrepreneurs, but they can forge an industrial strategy that encourages firms to plan ahead, to invest in the future and to work with their employees to achieve success.", "EditedTextHTML": "I agree that we must work on that, but the difficulty is that firms often pull back from initiating discussions, particularly when they are moving into difficult circumstances, because they know that it will affect their share price.

The other side of changing demand is more positive, because demand for technical development is likely to continue. Many firms in West Lothian are so-called high-tech industries, and companies such as Sun Microsystems and Quintiles are seeing demand for their products grow. However, they know that as technology advances, support for research and development through an industrial strategy will be essential.

The aim of an industrial strategy is to have a sound economic base for Scotland. Our aim should also be to ensure that fewer people are unemployed, and for shorter periods. Members of the Government cannot dictate demand, nor are they entrepreneurs, but they can forge an industrial strategy that encourages firms to plan ahead, to invest in the future and to work with their employees to achieve success.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1854E38P164C708662", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Godman, Trish", "ID": 1854, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Renfrewshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Trish Godman", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Trish Godman (West Renfrewshire) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 236.0, "ContributionID": 708662, "EditedText": "I welcome the debate and the minister's statement on the strategy for manufacturing industry, but I want to concentrate on an industry that I literally grew up with: shipbuilding. I was born and raised in Govan—in fact, I was born just across the road from Harland and Wolff—and I can remember the queues of trams waiting to take home the thousands of men who poured out of the yards along the Clyde. That once huge industry is, sadly, a faint shadow of its former self. For all that sad decline, there are still some important employers of skilled personnel on the Clyde. There is Yarrow at Scotstoun, Kvaerner at Govan, which is to be renamed on Friday, Ferguson at Port Glasgow in my constituency and a small yard in Troon. Ferguson is a specialist yard, a first-class builder of Caledonian MacBrayne ferries and offshore supply vessels. It can compete with any yard, but as with all European yards, international competition must be fair and above board. The First Minister and the secretary of state have important roles to play in London and Brussels in the fight for orders for those yards. Those ministers must ensure that our yards get a fair share of Ministry of Defence orders. Next year, the MOD will place an order for two or three vessels, a contract worth over £200 million, which will provide work for 1,500 skilled personnel for three years and will mean that apprentices are taken on—that is the kind of thing that Henry McLeish talked about. We must be at the forefront of the fight for the share of such contracts. That contract is the start of a long line of Royal Navy and Royal Fleet Auxiliary contracts, which must be placed to renew an aging fleet. As a member of this Parliament, I say that we should campaign for a substantial slice of those contracts, and the campaigning should start now. On commercial shipbuilding, I believe that Cal Mac should remain in the public domain. That means that the First Minister would continue to play a key role in ensuring that Cal Mac ferries are built in Scotland. I would prefer Ferguson, but they should be built in Scotland. Now that the chancellor has responded positively to the demands for an introduction of a tonnage tax, British ship-owners should honour their obligations to us, employ British crews and return their ships to the British flag. Does not Andrew Wilson want to say something about the British flag? I would also expect British ship-owners to place their orders with British—preferably Scottish— yards. We must be building British ships. The huge order for the MOD has the potential to employ thousands of skilled workers. Ministers and this Parliament must start work now to ensure that we get a substantial part of such orders. With the introduction of a tonnage tax, we should insist that ship-owners build, crew and repair in the UK and sail under the British flag. The Executive motion on manufacturing and industrial strategy for Scotland is a beginning. Shipbuilding must be part of that strategy and campaign.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the debate and the minister's statement on the strategy for manufacturing industry, but I want to concentrate on an industry that I literally grew up with: shipbuilding.

I was born and raised in Govan—in fact, I was born just across the road from Harland and Wolff—and I can remember the queues of trams waiting to take home the thousands of men who poured out of the yards along the Clyde. That once huge industry is, sadly, a faint shadow of its former self.

For all that sad decline, there are still some important employers of skilled personnel on the Clyde. There is Yarrow at Scotstoun, Kvaerner at Govan, which is to be renamed on Friday, Ferguson at Port Glasgow in my constituency and a small yard in Troon. Ferguson is a specialist yard, a first-class builder of Caledonian MacBrayne ferries and offshore supply vessels. It can compete with any yard, but as with all European yards, international competition must be fair and above board.

The First Minister and the secretary of state have important roles to play in London and Brussels in the fight for orders for those yards. Those ministers must ensure that our yards get a fair share of Ministry of Defence orders. Next year, the MOD will place an order for two or three vessels, a contract worth over £200 million, which will provide work for 1,500 skilled personnel for three years and will mean that apprentices are taken on—that is the kind of thing that Henry McLeish talked about.

We must be at the forefront of the fight for the share of such contracts. That contract is the start of a long line of Royal Navy and Royal Fleet Auxiliary contracts, which must be placed to renew an aging fleet. As a member of this Parliament, I say that we should campaign for a substantial slice of those contracts, and the campaigning should start now.

On commercial shipbuilding, I believe that Cal Mac should remain in the public domain. That means that the First Minister would continue to play a key role in ensuring that Cal Mac ferries are built in Scotland. I would prefer Ferguson, but they should be built in Scotland.

Now that the chancellor has responded positively to the demands for an introduction of a tonnage tax, British ship-owners should honour their obligations to us, employ British crews and return their ships to the British flag. Does not Andrew Wilson want to say something about the British flag?

I would also expect British ship-owners to place their orders with British—preferably Scottish— yards. We must be building British ships.

The huge order for the MOD has the potential to employ thousands of skilled workers. Ministers and this Parliament must start work now to ensure that we get a substantial part of such orders.

With the introduction of a tonnage tax, we should insist that ship-owners build, crew and repair in the UK and sail under the British flag.

The Executive motion on manufacturing and industrial strategy for Scotland is a beginning. Shipbuilding must be part of that strategy and campaign.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2152E53P75C708664", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnston, Nick", "ID": 2152, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nick Johnston", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Nick Johnston (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 241.0, "ContributionID": 708664, "EditedText": "I have thoroughly enjoyed the debate. I enjoyed the minister's speech. We would like to support his motion. I am sure that when he finally attains his manufacturing strategy, we will be able to debate it and enjoy it again. I even enjoyed John McAllion's speech—as one of the older members of the Parliament, it took me back to the dark days of the Labour party. Even the minister agrees that regulation must be cut; I think that he said that we should take it as a given. I enjoyed Bristow Muldoon's speech, because at least it proved that he can read his script. enjoyed listening to John Swinney because he talked of aspiration, and that is at the heart of Scottish nationalist policies. I hope that he remains disappointed for many years to come. Most of all, I enjoyed Annabel Goldie's speech because I did not know that she was green- fingered. I thought that she was going to advise the Executive of the old gardening adage that when one is in a hole, just stop digging. The cumulative effects of the high level of sterling combined with shocks to the global economy and slower growth are taking a painful toll. During 1999, Scottish manufacturing industry expects to face a combination of deterioration in domestic demand and lagging reaction to lost export business. Industry in Scotland needs a level playing field relative to its competitors. The Scottish Parliament must generate—as far as its powers permit—a climate conducive to wealth creation free from impediments to growth and investment, made possible by easing the burdens on business, applying only minimal, sensible regulation and removing disincentives, actual or perceived. Those basic objectives are comparable with the Scottish Conservative aim of promoting prosperity. The pathfinder engineering group said that the Executive should see wealth and job creation as being at the kernel of the Scottish Parliament's activities. The number of jobs in the engineering industry has been contracting because of increasing productivity and a more efficient use of capital; it needs to secure high, sustainable employment. A switch is needed from subsidising the past to laying the foundations for the future.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have thoroughly enjoyed the debate. I enjoyed the minister's speech. We would like to support his motion. I am sure that when he finally attains his manufacturing strategy, we will be able to debate it and enjoy it again.

I even enjoyed John McAllion's speech—as one of the older members of the Parliament, it took me back to the dark days of the Labour party. Even the minister agrees that regulation must be cut; I think that he said that we should take it as a given. I enjoyed Bristow Muldoon's speech, because at least it proved that he can read his script.

enjoyed listening to John Swinney because he talked of aspiration, and that is at the heart of Scottish nationalist policies. I hope that he remains disappointed for many years to come.

Most of all, I enjoyed Annabel Goldie's speech because I did not know that she was green- fingered. I thought that she was going to advise the Executive of the old gardening adage that when one is in a hole, just stop digging.

The cumulative effects of the high level of sterling combined with shocks to the global economy and slower growth are taking a painful toll. During 1999, Scottish manufacturing industry expects to face a combination of deterioration in domestic demand and lagging reaction to lost export business. Industry in Scotland needs a level playing field relative to its competitors. The Scottish Parliament must generate—as far as its powers permit—a climate conducive to wealth creation free from impediments to growth and investment, made possible by easing the burdens on business, applying only minimal, sensible regulation and removing disincentives, actual or perceived.

Those basic objectives are comparable with the Scottish Conservative aim of promoting prosperity. The pathfinder engineering group said that the Executive should see wealth and job creation as being at the kernel of the Scottish Parliament's activities. The number of jobs in the engineering industry has been contracting because of increasing productivity and a more efficient use of capital; it needs to secure high, sustainable employment. A switch is needed from subsidising the past to laying the foundations for the future.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2152E53P75C708666", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnston, Nick", "ID": 2152, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nick Johnston", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Johnston: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 245.0, "ContributionID": 708666, "EditedText": "I am always prepared to take lessons from anyone. I shall address benchmarking later in my speech. The Scottish Conservatives agree with much of what the minister said. Fundamental to the prosperity of the manufacturing industry is the achievement of a flexible skills base with scope for personal development. That would create better prospects for the growth of indigenous engineering businesses, which in turn would enhance the growth of established engineering companies and attract more inward investment. Particular attention should be paid to the encouragement of business start-ups. We heard at the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee meeting this morning that Scottish Enterprise is involved in only 20 per cent of business start-ups. That is something for the minister to consider. The transfer of best practice must be stimulated by fostering business collaboration and partnerships and—again—the burden of regulation should be eased. Certain manufacturing sectors, such as aerospace, require longer horizons for investment. Longer-term training plans can be founded only on dependable and collaborative relationships between higher education institutions, the engineering industry and its customers. Links forged between centres of higher education and industry should be associated not only with large manufacturing concerns but with small to medium enterprises. Just because a business is small does not mean that opportunities do not exist for innovation and for improvements in productivity. Margo MacDonald made that point well. Initiatives such as the university for industry and individual learning accounts are welcome— initiatives, I might point out, started by the Conservative Government. The Executive must give young people opportunities to learn at first hand about modern manufacturing. Cultural barriers should be broken down, so that technical and vocational skills are held in the highest esteem, and mentoring should be used to enable successful engineers to pass on their skills. Most important of all, women must be encouraged to take up roles in engineering. Financial support should be judged not simply by the crude measure of new jobs created— important though levels of employment are—but by the quality of employment opportunities provided. Assistance to the manufacturing industry is too often approached and evaluated from a short-term, minimal risk perspective. Incentive programmes based on creating employment can be sustained only by added value and wealth creation. We should focus on business starts, the management of change, business growth, upgrading to maintain competition and international development. In constructing the manufacturing strategy for the future, is the Executive confident that the measures that it has adopted will not repeat the mistakes of the past? Is the beautiful rose garden bequeathed to the Government by the Conservatives to be allowed to wither on the vine as Labour leads us up the garden path?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am always prepared to take lessons from anyone. I shall address benchmarking later in my speech.

The Scottish Conservatives agree with much of what the minister said. Fundamental to the prosperity of the manufacturing industry is the achievement of a flexible skills base with scope for personal development. That would create better prospects for the growth of indigenous engineering businesses, which in turn would enhance the growth of established engineering companies and attract more inward investment.

Particular attention should be paid to the encouragement of business start-ups. We heard at the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee meeting this morning that Scottish Enterprise is involved in only 20 per cent of business start-ups. That is something for the minister to consider. The transfer of best practice must be stimulated by fostering business collaboration and partnerships and—again—the burden of regulation should be eased.

Certain manufacturing sectors, such as aerospace, require longer horizons for investment. Longer-term training plans can be founded only on dependable and collaborative relationships between higher education institutions, the engineering industry and its customers. Links forged between centres of higher education and industry should be associated not only with large manufacturing concerns but with small to medium enterprises. Just because a business is small does not mean that opportunities do not exist for innovation and for improvements in productivity. Margo MacDonald made that point well.

Initiatives such as the university for industry and individual learning accounts are welcome— initiatives, I might point out, started by the Conservative Government. The Executive must give young people opportunities to learn at first hand about modern manufacturing. Cultural barriers should be broken down, so that technical and vocational skills are held in the highest esteem, and mentoring should be used to enable successful engineers to pass on their skills. Most important of all, women must be encouraged to take up roles in engineering.

Financial support should be judged not simply by the crude measure of new jobs created— important though levels of employment are—but by the quality of employment opportunities provided. Assistance to the manufacturing industry is too often approached and evaluated from a short-term, minimal risk perspective. Incentive programmes based on creating employment can be sustained only by added value and wealth creation. We should focus on business starts, the management of change, business growth, upgrading to maintain competition and international development.

In constructing the manufacturing strategy for the future, is the Executive confident that the measures that it has adopted will not repeat the mistakes of the past? Is the beautiful rose garden bequeathed to the Government by the Conservatives to be allowed to wither on the vine as Labour leads us up the garden path?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C708670", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 254.0, "ContributionID": 708670, "EditedText": "I call Henry McLeish to wind up this debate for the Executive.", "EditedTextHTML": "I call Henry McLeish to wind up this debate for the Executive.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C708671", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 257.0, "ContributionID": 708671, "EditedText": "I thank Mr Reid for the chance to speak officially again. I think that that brings the number of speakers to 20. I share the sentiments of everyone that this has been a constructive debate, and that marks the continuing evolution of the Parliament. This is a serious issue for us and for Scotland in an area where there is much consensus. I wish to go through some of the points raised rather than give a long polemic at the start and again at the end of my contribution. I take seriously the points that Robin Harper made. He can rest assured that both Sarah Boyack and I will be pursuing the matter of renewables. We will give him the opportunity at a later stage to discuss targets, what the Government is doing and how we are working with Westminster to ensure real progress. In the spirit of charity for which I hope that I am renowned, I want to say to SNP members, on the central issue of their amendment, that it has already been done. My appeal to them is to acknowledge that I am embracing the spirit, sentiment and, nearly, the substance of it. I wish, however, to confirm that Scottish Enterprise and Highlands and Islands Enterprise are currently engaged in a project to develop improved systems to track the performance of the Scottish economy. These systems will enable Scotland's progress to be compared against a number of European and other countries and regions. A range of private, public and voluntary sector bodies are being consulted on the proposed approach. I am hopeful that details of that will be announced next week. The Scottish Executive has been developing a programme for improving the coverage and timeliness of Scottish economic statistics. It has produced a new quarterly gross domestic product series, a new index of manufactured exports, more comprehensive information on the corporate sector in Scotland and improved data on the labour market. I agree that the SNP's proposals would enhance the ability not only to develop a manufacturing strategy, but to monitor its performance. I think that everyone in this chamber will agree that that is a laudable sentiment. I ask SNP members to accept my word on the fact that their proposals are already being carried out. The programme goes some way towards the criteria that they have set down. To be helpful, rather than have a division, I would be grateful if the SNP would consider withdrawing its amendment, to see what transpires. They have, of course, the opportunity to return to the issue at a later stage.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank Mr Reid for the chance to speak officially again. I think that that brings the

number of speakers to 20. I share the sentiments of everyone that this has been a constructive debate, and that marks the continuing evolution of the Parliament. This is a serious issue for us and for Scotland in an area where there is much consensus.

I wish to go through some of the points raised rather than give a long polemic at the start and again at the end of my contribution.

I take seriously the points that Robin Harper made. He can rest assured that both Sarah Boyack and I will be pursuing the matter of renewables. We will give him the opportunity at a later stage to discuss targets, what the Government is doing and how we are working with Westminster to ensure real progress.

In the spirit of charity for which I hope that I am renowned, I want to say to SNP members, on the central issue of their amendment, that it has already been done. My appeal to them is to acknowledge that I am embracing the spirit, sentiment and, nearly, the substance of it. I wish, however, to confirm that Scottish Enterprise and Highlands and Islands Enterprise are currently engaged in a project to develop improved systems to track the performance of the Scottish economy. These systems will enable Scotland's progress to be compared against a number of European and other countries and regions. A range of private, public and voluntary sector bodies are being consulted on the proposed approach. I am hopeful that details of that will be announced next week.

The Scottish Executive has been developing a programme for improving the coverage and timeliness of Scottish economic statistics. It has produced a new quarterly gross domestic product series, a new index of manufactured exports, more comprehensive information on the corporate sector in Scotland and improved data on the labour market. I agree that the SNP's proposals would enhance the ability not only to develop a manufacturing strategy, but to monitor its performance. I think that everyone in this chamber will agree that that is a laudable sentiment. I ask SNP members to accept my word on the fact that their proposals are already being carried out. The programme goes some way towards the criteria that they have set down.

To be helpful, rather than have a division, I would be grateful if the SNP would consider withdrawing its amendment, to see what transpires. They have, of course, the opportunity to return to the issue at a later stage.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C708675", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 265.0, "ContributionID": 708675, "EditedText": "I see that someone else wishes to speak. I have made my points on the issue and have welcomed much of what is in the amendment, but I think that we should wait— MEMBERS: \"Accept it.\" No. I have highlighted the key weakness. We are setting off—this is a new Parliament with new politics—but our actions must technically be right. We can endorse the principle that we should track what is happening in the Scottish economy and deal effectively with strategy, but the SNP's amendment confuses the central issue of the role of Parliament and that of the Executive.", "EditedTextHTML": "I see that someone else wishes to speak. I have made my points on the issue and have welcomed much of what is in the amendment, but I think that we should wait— [MEMBERS: \"Accept it.\"] No. I have highlighted the key weakness.

We are setting off—this is a new Parliament with new politics—but our actions must technically be right. We can endorse the principle that we should track what is happening in the Scottish economy and deal effectively with strategy, but the SNP's amendment confuses the central issue of the role of Parliament and that of the Executive.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C708676", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Goldie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 267.0, "ContributionID": 708676, "EditedText": "The Conservative party's position is quite simple. Like Mr McLeish, we are confused about the text of the amendment and concerned about the way in which it is phrased. We accept that much of our economy is integrated with the rest of the United Kingdom and are somewhat uneasy about the use of words like competitors. We also share Mr McLeish's expressed position.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Conservative party's position is quite simple. Like Mr McLeish, we are confused about the text of the amendment and concerned about the way in which it is phrased. We accept that much of our economy is integrated with the rest of the United Kingdom and are somewhat uneasy about the use of words like competitors. We also share Mr McLeish's expressed position.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1878E208P502C708678", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Dr Winnie", "ID": 1878, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Winnie Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Winnie Ewing (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 271.0, "ContributionID": 708678, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1762E216P508C708680", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Elder, Dorothy-Grace", "ID": 1762, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder (Glasgow) (SNP) rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 275.0, "ContributionID": 708680, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C708683", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 281.0, "ContributionID": 708683, "EditedText": "That was what I said.Annabel Goldie raised the question of regulation, and she will know that we are to have a regulatory impact assessment for any piece of legislation. That is a step forward, which does not happen at Westminster. In the spirit of today's discussion I think that that will be accepted. Christine Grahame quite rightly raised the issues in her area. I want Signum Circuits to be successful. Christine knows that regional selective assistance will not be available until 1 January. I hope that the European Commission will approve it. We are in discussions with the company and we want the company to work. On the cashmere task force that she asked for, there is already a group of manufacturers in the Borders who meet to discuss relevant issues. It will draw up its own strategy, and Scottish Enterprise and the local enterprise companies have said that they are happy to assist. On the issues of railways in the Borders and a number of others that were raised, I am sure that my colleagues were listening and that they will address those matters. Margo MacDonald raised the question of definitions. Hopefully, I have answered her point. The line is blurring, but it is in the best interests of companies not only to have products, but to have services that ensure that the products work in the marketplace. Trish Godman raised the matter of shipbuilding. I could not agree with her more. Clearly, there are regulatory and competition issues in Europe, but we want to ensure that we are well placed to win contracts. We have the skills, the history and the sentiment, which is important. Finally, Fergus Ewing raised some oldchestnuts, but also some good points; for example, his point about design. Fergus should visit Project Alba. If he is talking about copyright and intellectual property, he will find that we are already moving into that area because we want to have a market for intellectual property in Scotland. Alba is breaking new ground with Cadence. If Fergus leaves the Court of Session and visits Project Alba, he will find out at first hand that not only does Scotland want to lead the world, it does lead the world, with first-class activity that is being supported by Scottish Enterprise and the Government. Sir David, it has been a good debate. I hope that we will approve motion S1M-171 and that, in the spirit of co-operation, the SNP will withdraw its amendment so that we can leave here today without a division being recorded.", "EditedTextHTML": "That was what I said.

Annabel Goldie raised the question of regulation, and she will know that we are to have a regulatory impact assessment for any piece of legislation. That is a step forward, which does not happen at Westminster. In the spirit of today's discussion I think that that will be accepted.

Christine Grahame quite rightly raised the issues in her area. I want Signum Circuits to be successful. Christine knows that regional selective assistance will not be available until 1 January. I hope that the European Commission will approve it. We are in discussions with the company and we want the company to work.

On the cashmere task force that she asked for, there is already a group of manufacturers in the Borders who meet to discuss relevant issues. It will draw up its own strategy, and Scottish Enterprise and the local enterprise companies have said that they are happy to assist. On the issues of railways in the Borders and a number of others that were raised, I am sure that my colleagues were listening and that they will address those matters.

Margo MacDonald raised the question of definitions. Hopefully, I have answered her point. The line is blurring, but it is in the best interests of companies not only to have products, but to have services that ensure that the products work in the marketplace.

Trish Godman raised the matter of shipbuilding. I could not agree with her more. Clearly, there are regulatory and competition issues in Europe, but we want to ensure that we are well placed to win contracts. We have the skills, the history and the sentiment, which is important.

Finally, Fergus Ewing raised some old

chestnuts, but also some good points; for example, his point about design. Fergus should visit Project Alba. If he is talking about copyright and intellectual property, he will find that we are already moving into that area because we want to have a market for intellectual property in Scotland. Alba is breaking new ground with Cadence. If Fergus leaves the Court of Session and visits Project Alba, he will find out at first hand that not only does Scotland want to lead the world, it does lead the world, with first-class activity that is being supported by Scottish Enterprise and the Government.

Sir David, it has been a good debate. I hope that we will approve motion S1M-171 and that, in the spirit of co-operation, the SNP will withdraw its amendment so that we can leave here today without a division being recorded.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708684", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 283.0, "ContributionID": 708684, "EditedText": "The next item of business on the bulletin is consideration of Parliamentary Bureau motions. I am glad to say that there is none, so we will move straight to decision time.", "EditedTextHTML": "The next item of business on the bulletin is consideration of Parliamentary Bureau motions. I am glad to say that there is none, so we will move straight to decision time.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "C708688", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26874, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 285.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 285.0, "ID": 26874, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 293.0, "ContributionID": 708688, "EditedText": "FOR Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)AGAINST Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)ABSTENTIONS Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)

AGAINST

Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)

ABSTENTIONS

Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "C708692", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26874, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 285.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 285.0, "ID": 26874, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 299.0, "ContributionID": 708692, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1862E99P179C708716", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Football Clubs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26875, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 301.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 301.0, "ID": 26875, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Brankin, Rhona", "ID": 1862, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Midlothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Culture and Sport", "SpeakerName": "Rhona Brankin", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Rhona Brankin: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 350.0, "ContributionID": 708716, "EditedText": "Yes, I do attach importance to it and I shall find out when we will respond to that letter when I return to Victoria Quay. I will respond to it at an early stage. I thank Mr Matheson for raising that matter. Clubs in Scotland have had more than nine years to carry out any safety works or to relocate and the Taylor changes and developments in Scotland have been largely completed.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes, I do attach importance to it and I shall find out when we will respond to that letter when I return to Victoria Quay. I will respond to it at an early stage. I thank Mr Matheson for raising that matter.

Clubs in Scotland have had more than nine years to carry out any safety works or to relocate and the Taylor changes and developments in Scotland have been largely completed.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C708705", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Football Clubs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26875, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 301.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 301.0, "ID": 26875, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 327.0, "ContributionID": 708705, "EditedText": "Does Mr Crawford agree that the role of schools football is important to a youth policy? Unfortunately, schools football has never fully recovered from the major teachers' dispute during the lifetime of the previous Tory Government. Will Bruce join me in hoping that there will be a fair and early end to the current teachers' dispute and that the committee that has been set up by the Scottish Executive to examine the conditions and wages of teachers will also investigate this important matter to ensure that teachers get a fair remuneration or time off in lieu if they give their services to the development of football and other sports?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does Mr Crawford agree that the role of schools football is important to a youth policy? Unfortunately, schools football has never fully recovered from the major teachers' dispute during the lifetime of the previous Tory Government. Will Bruce join me in hoping that there will be a fair and early end to the current teachers' dispute and that the committee that has been set up by the Scottish Executive to examine the conditions and wages of teachers will also investigate this important matter to ensure that teachers get a fair remuneration or time off in lieu if they give their services to the development of football and other sports?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C708706", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Football Clubs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26875, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 301.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 301.0, "ID": 26875, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bruce Crawford: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 329.0, "ContributionID": 708706, "EditedText": "Dennis's point is entirely fair. The previous dispute destroyed much of the national grass-roots work on football and, unfortunately, it has never recovered. Donald's idea that we should top-slice areas such as social work and police in local government is frankly nonsensical and will never work. Football will never be a winner when it competes for resources with tourism, the voluntary sector and theatres. If we are to help Scottish football, we will need to find ways of taking money straight out of the Scottish block. It is vital that provincial clubs are helped in the way that they are in Holland and Norway. Although Norway is a similar size to Scotland and has almost the same weather, it has 11 indoor football pitches while we have none. That tells a tale. We need facilities to help our local people and our young people to grow their talent locally and the country needs such facilities to produce a national team of which the fans can be proud. Perhaps we could help the smaller clubs not by top-slicing local government but by reviewing the rates that are paid on football stadiums and by examining the high cost of policing football matches. Money sloshing around in FIFA and the Scottish Football Association should be invested in the game in a real and meaningful way. Sitting at East End Park on a Saturday afternoon, I sometimes think about the management's problem with training youngsters on its books. Its job would be impossible without the help and understanding of the naval base at Rosyth. Training facilities are required for a minimum of 80 youngsters, who make up teams of 13, 14, 15, and 16-year-olds. That difficult job is made more difficult when we add two regional league teams, the reserves and the first team. We can see where headaches multiply for provincial clubs in Scotland. The only way we will do it is by opening up the SFA and FIFA coffers to enable the Executive to look more imaginatively at not just revenue funding, but how the lottery and sportscotland can help release the real vitality in the many youth football teams throughout the country that never seem to make it to the senior grades. Anyone here who supports Ayr United, Dunfermline Athletic beat them 2-1 on Saturday.", "EditedTextHTML": "Dennis's point is entirely fair. The previous dispute destroyed much of the national grass-roots work on football and, unfortunately, it has never recovered.

Donald's idea that we should top-slice areas such as social work and police in local government is frankly nonsensical and will never work. Football will never be a winner when it competes for resources with tourism, the voluntary sector and theatres. If we are to help Scottish football, we will need to find ways of taking money straight out of the Scottish block.

It is vital that provincial clubs are helped in the way that they are in Holland and Norway. Although Norway is a similar size to Scotland and has almost the same weather, it has 11 indoor football pitches while we have none. That tells a tale. We need facilities to help our local people and our young people to grow their talent locally and the country needs such facilities to produce a national team of which the fans can be proud.

Perhaps we could help the smaller clubs not by top-slicing local government but by reviewing the rates that are paid on football stadiums and by examining the high cost of policing football matches. Money sloshing around in FIFA and the Scottish Football Association should be invested in the game in a real and meaningful way.

Sitting at East End Park on a Saturday afternoon, I sometimes think about the management's problem with training youngsters on its books. Its job would be impossible without the help and understanding of the naval base at Rosyth. Training facilities are required for a minimum of 80 youngsters, who make up teams of 13, 14, 15, and 16-year-olds. That difficult job is made more difficult when we add two regional league teams, the reserves and the first team. We can see where headaches multiply for provincial clubs in Scotland.

The only way we will do it is by opening up the SFA and FIFA coffers to enable the Executive to look more imaginatively at not just revenue funding, but how the lottery and sportscotland can help release the real vitality in the many youth football teams throughout the country that never seem to make it to the senior grades. Anyone here who supports Ayr United, Dunfermline Athletic beat them 2-1 on Saturday.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C708707", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Football Clubs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26875, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 301.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 301.0, "ID": 26875, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 331.0, "ContributionID": 708707, "EditedText": "On a point of order—", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C708708", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Football Clubs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26875, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 301.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 301.0, "ID": 26875, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 333.0, "ContributionID": 708708, "EditedText": "I hope that it is a genuine point of order.", "EditedTextHTML": "I hope that it is a genuine point of order.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C708587", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 70.0, "ContributionID": 708587, "EditedText": "I compliment the Presiding Officer on his rapid response to market demand. It is an example to all of us. I welcome this debate and the opportunity to assess the future of the manufacturing sector. It would be disingenuous of me to suggest that the motion from Henry McLeish is all motherhood and apple pie and I am happy to associate the Scottish National party with the aspiration that is contained within the motion. The aspiration, of course, is one thing, but the Government must be capable of delivering on its aspiration and, as a Parliament, we must be able to judge just how effective the Government has been in going about that task. Those two questions—whether the Government can deliver an effective manufacturing strategy and whether we as a Parliament can properly judge its performance—lie at the heart of the remarks that I shall make in speaking to the amendment in my name. Mr McLeish's motion states:\"That the Parliament believes that a vibrant manufacturing sector will continue to play an important part in Scotland's knowledge driven economy.\" We all value the manufacturing sector, we regret the damage that was done to it during the years when the Conservatives were in power, and we want to create the best conditions in which manufacturing can prevail in future. Let us take a moment to consider where manufacturing stands now. This Parliament has been well served by the contents of the report, \"Pathfinders to the Parliament\". There is an interesting paragraph in the report that I think encapsulates a lot of the challenges that face us in the manufacturing sector. It reads: \"The Scottish manufacturing base has found it difficult to move up the value chain with inward investors because the product design and product ownership has in most cases not been attracted to Scotland. Equally the research capability in universities and hospitals has not been able to link into foreign manufacturers for the same reason. Without significant product design and ownership in Scotland, this will not change.\" That is a fundamental point that we must recognise in arriving at our conclusions. Whether it is in the financial services sector— where I have been known to bemoan the fact that essential functions among our major companies are lost from Scotland—or whether it is in key manufacturing companies that are unable to locate their product design operations in Scotland, our economy will suffer unless we have a critical mass of indigenous companies that can anchor Scotland's economy and manufacturing base. The lesson from the manufacturing sector is of vital importance, but we should also look at other recommendations from the manufacturing section of the pathfinder report. I was struck by the fact that a group of able and esteemed Scottish business people should tell us, as one of their priorities, that we should abolish student fees for university courses in science and engineering. There may be a moral in that story about university tuition fees being a disincentive to young people who want to enter higher education. The business people suggested that we had to develop greater value from Scotland's intellectual property. Any analysis of intellectual property in the Scottish economy suggests that it is an issue on which I can agree with the minister that we are not maximising the full potential of our indigenous strengths. The minister mentioned the importance of e- commerce and the knowledge economy. We have to acknowledge that, for many people, the language of e-commerce is rather remote—so distant, almost, that they wonder where the plug is for the internet. We must ensure that more people become accustomed to the language and operating basis of e-commerce and the knowledge economy, and to all that that means for the traditional practices of the manufacturing sector. The pathfinder group recommended that the Parliament should review the plethora of organisations that undertake much of the activity in the sector, and that is now under way. The group also called for a national benchmarking programme to provide a framework within which we can judge the effectiveness of the Government's manufacturing strategy. That recommendation goes to the heart of the constructive amendment that we have put forward today, and it is something to which I shall return in more detail. The final point that I want to highlight from the pathfinder report concerns the suggestion that there should be a parliamentary committee on competitiveness. We ought to examine competitiveness, although I suspect that that matter is reserved to the Department of Trade and Industry. Nevertheless, we must consider what makes companies competitive and what we can do as a Parliament to ensure that we maximise the competitive opportunities of individual companies.", "EditedTextHTML": "I compliment the Presiding Officer on his rapid response to market demand. It is an example to all of us.

I welcome this debate and the opportunity to assess the future of the manufacturing sector. It would be disingenuous of me to suggest that the motion from Henry McLeish is all motherhood and apple pie and I am happy to associate the Scottish National party with the aspiration that is contained within the motion.

The aspiration, of course, is one thing, but the Government must be capable of delivering on its aspiration and, as a Parliament, we must be able to judge just how effective the Government has been in going about that task. Those two questions—whether the Government can deliver an effective manufacturing strategy and whether we as a Parliament can properly judge its performance—lie at the heart of the remarks that I shall make in speaking to the amendment in my name.

Mr McLeish's motion states:

\"That the Parliament believes that a vibrant manufacturing sector will continue to play an important part in Scotland's knowledge driven economy.\"

We all value the manufacturing sector, we regret the damage that was done to it during the years when the Conservatives were in power, and we want to create the best conditions in which manufacturing can prevail in future.

Let us take a moment to consider where manufacturing stands now. This Parliament has been well served by the contents of the report, \"Pathfinders to the Parliament\". There is an interesting paragraph in the report that I think encapsulates a lot of the challenges that face us in the manufacturing sector. It reads:

\"The Scottish manufacturing base has found it difficult to move up the value chain with inward investors because the product design and product ownership has in most cases not been attracted to Scotland. Equally the research capability in universities and hospitals has not been able to link into foreign manufacturers for the same reason.

Without significant product design and ownership in Scotland, this will not change.\"

That is a fundamental point that we must recognise in arriving at our conclusions.

Whether it is in the financial services sector— where I have been known to bemoan the fact that essential functions among our major companies are lost from Scotland—or whether it is in key manufacturing companies that are unable to locate their product design operations in Scotland, our economy will suffer unless we have a critical mass of indigenous companies that can anchor Scotland's economy and manufacturing base.

The lesson from the manufacturing sector is of vital importance, but we should also look at other recommendations from the manufacturing section of the pathfinder report. I was struck by the fact that a group of able and esteemed Scottish business people should tell us, as one of their priorities, that we should abolish student fees for university courses in science and engineering. There may be a moral in that story about university tuition fees being a disincentive to young people who want to enter higher education. The business people suggested that we had to develop greater value from Scotland's intellectual property. Any analysis of intellectual property in the Scottish economy suggests that it is an issue on which I can agree with the minister that we are not maximising the full potential of our indigenous strengths.

The minister mentioned the importance of e- commerce and the knowledge economy. We have to acknowledge that, for many people, the language of e-commerce is rather remote—so distant, almost, that they wonder where the plug is for the internet. We must ensure that more people become accustomed to the language and operating basis of e-commerce and the knowledge economy, and to all that that means for the traditional practices of the manufacturing sector.

The pathfinder group recommended that the Parliament should review the plethora of organisations that undertake much of the activity in the sector, and that is now under way. The group also called for a national benchmarking programme to provide a framework within which we can judge the effectiveness of the Government's manufacturing strategy. That recommendation goes to the heart of the constructive amendment that we have put forward today, and it is something to which I shall return in more detail.

The final point that I want to highlight from the pathfinder report concerns the suggestion that there should be a parliamentary committee on competitiveness. We ought to examine competitiveness, although I suspect that that matter is reserved to the Department of Trade and Industry. Nevertheless, we must consider what makes companies competitive and what we can do as a Parliament to ensure that we maximise the competitive opportunities of individual companies.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:28:33.8639665+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C708595", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 86.0, "ContributionID": 708595, "EditedText": "I take Richard Simpson's point, but I am calling for the enterprise networks to see things coming, to be proactive and to be in a position where they can scan the local areas of the Scottish economy and ask where the strains are likely to appear. That way things are not just bolts out of the blue. I know that companies sometimes do not show their hand—for reasons of confidentiality and other matters—but there is a duty on our networks to ensure that they are looking for the trouble that lies ahead. I would like to hear more from the minister about what is to be put in place in terms of labour market and company intelligence to do more in peacetime to resolve the difficulties that companies may face. I hope that the Government will support the amendment. I brought the \"Programme for Government\" document over with me—it was very handy as a shelter from the rain; it is so big that about five of us managed to get under it. It contains a commitment to develop a manufacturing strategy for Scotland and to start implementing that by early 2000. I support that. What matters—and this gets to the nub of the arguments that the Scottish National party put forward in the programme for government debate—is not whether the Government is successful in bringing forward a strategy. I am sure that the Government will bring forward a strategy—anyone could do that and call it a manufacturing strategy.", "EditedTextHTML": "I take Richard Simpson's point, but I am calling for the enterprise networks to see things coming, to be proactive and to be in a position where they can scan the local areas of the Scottish economy and ask where the strains are likely to appear. That way things are not just bolts out of the blue. I know that companies sometimes do not show their hand—for reasons of confidentiality and other matters—but there is a duty on our networks to ensure that they are looking for the trouble that lies ahead. I would like to hear more from the minister about what is to be put in place in terms of labour market and company intelligence to do more in peacetime to resolve the difficulties that companies may face.

I hope that the Government will support the amendment. I brought the \"Programme for Government\" document over with me—it was very handy as a shelter from the rain; it is so big that about five of us managed to get under it. It contains a commitment to develop a manufacturing strategy for Scotland and to start implementing that by early 2000. I support that. What matters—and this gets to the nub of the arguments that the Scottish National party put forward in the programme for government debate—is not whether the Government is successful in bringing forward a strategy. I am sure that the Government will bring forward a strategy—anyone could do that and call it a manufacturing strategy.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:28:33.8639665+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C708659", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 228.0, "ContributionID": 708659, "EditedText": "The point I was making is that our enterprise network has to work in conjunction with companies on their future development. I fear—I am prepared to be corrected on this by other members who have talked to businesses in Scotland—that businesses do not always feel that they have the enterprise network on their side.", "EditedTextHTML": "The point I was making is that our enterprise network has to work in conjunction with companies on their future development. I fear—I am prepared to be corrected on this by other members who have talked to businesses in Scotland—that businesses do not always feel that they have the enterprise network on their side.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:29:30.3706249+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C708665", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 243.0, "ContributionID": 708665, "EditedText": "Nick Johnston mentioned the pathfinder report. It is very interesting, and I support almost all of it. It asks for the establishment of a national benchmarking programme, to allow us to judge the Government's performance on developing the Scottish economy. If he is prepared to take that lesson from the pathfinder report, will he take another and support my amendment?", "EditedTextHTML": "Nick Johnston mentioned the pathfinder report. It is very interesting, and I support almost all of it. It asks for the establishment of a national benchmarking programme, to allow us to judge the Government's performance on developing the Scottish economy. If he is prepared to take that lesson from the pathfinder report, will he take another and support my amendment?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:29:30.3706249+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C708585", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 66.0, "ContributionID": 708585, "EditedText": "Mr Presiding Officer, I am tempted to say that the first part of the new manufacturing strategy should be to get more lecterns in the Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Presiding Officer, I am tempted to say that the first part of the new manufacturing strategy should be to get more lecterns in the Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:27:39.0629519+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C708607", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fergus Ewing (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 111.0, "ContributionID": 708607, "EditedText": "I am loth to interrupt this lesson in gardening. I feel that I am learning a great deal. However, to use gardening parlance, is it not the case that Miss Goldie's party planted a giant hogweed in the Scottish economy, when, for the first five years of this decade, under Conservative rule, business rates were levied that, according to the Scottish Council Development and Industry, were one fifth higher each year—from 1990 to 1995? Instead of imposing that higher tax on Scotland, the Conservatives should surely have been applying weedkiller.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am loth to interrupt this lesson in gardening. I feel that I am learning a great deal. However, to use gardening parlance, is it not the case that Miss Goldie's party planted a giant hogweed in the Scottish economy, when, for the first five years of this decade, under Conservative rule, business rates were levied that, according to the Scottish Council Development and Industry, were one fifth higher each year—from 1990 to 1995? Instead of imposing that higher tax on Scotland, the Conservatives should surely have been applying weedkiller.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:01:03.9549326+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C708667", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fergus Ewing (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 248.0, "ContributionID": 708667, "EditedText": "I congratulate everyone who has contributed to this debate. I particularly enjoyed the minister's contributions and I was pleased that we are all learning lessons from the United States of America about the knowledge economy. I hope that when the minister was in the United States he noticed the price of petrol there— it is a minute fraction of the price here. That is one reason why they are doing well while many of our manufacturing businesses are not. I found Annabel Goldie's horticultural metaphor absolutely fascinating, although as I reflect on the high tax and business rates that the Conservatives gave us in Scotland I cannot help thinking that she was viewing the garden from a conservatory. MEMBERS: \"Oh.\" It gets worse.", "EditedTextHTML": "I congratulate everyone who has contributed to this debate. I particularly

enjoyed the minister's contributions and I was pleased that we are all learning lessons from the United States of America about the knowledge economy. I hope that when the minister was in the United States he noticed the price of petrol there— it is a minute fraction of the price here. That is one reason why they are doing well while many of our manufacturing businesses are not.

I found Annabel Goldie's horticultural metaphor absolutely fascinating, although as I reflect on the high tax and business rates that the Conservatives gave us in Scotland I cannot help thinking that she was viewing the garden from a conservatory. [MEMBERS: \"Oh.\"] It gets worse.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:01:17.555696+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2133E222P520C708715", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Football Clubs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26875, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 301.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 301.0, "ID": 26875, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Matheson, Michael", "ID": 2133, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Matheson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Matheson (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 348.0, "ContributionID": 708715, "EditedText": "I wrote to the minister on 3 September, having had representations on the issue of the Football Trust in London about the weighting mechanism that still works to the advantage of premier league teams and to the disadvantage of first and second division teams. I received representations from a number of Falkirk Football Club fans about the weighting mechanism that works against clubs such as Falkirk, which is thinking about building a new stadium. Can the minister tell me when she will respond to my letter, which she received more than 23 days ago, on this important issue—if she gives it such importance?", "EditedTextHTML": "I wrote to the minister on 3 September, having had representations on the issue of the Football Trust in London about the weighting mechanism that still works to the advantage of premier league teams and to the disadvantage of first and second division teams.

I received representations from a number of Falkirk Football Club fans about the weighting mechanism that works against clubs such as Falkirk, which is thinking about building a new stadium. Can the minister tell me when she will respond to my letter, which she received more than 23 days ago, on this important issue—if she gives it such importance?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:55.929179+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C708557", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Wednesday 29 September 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26872, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26872, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie (Lothians) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 7.0, "ContributionID": 708557, "EditedText": "On a point of order, Presiding Officer.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order, Presiding Officer.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4983548+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708558", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Wednesday 29 September 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26872, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26872, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 9.0, "ContributionID": 708558, "EditedText": "As long as it is not a speech.", "EditedTextHTML": "As long as it is not a speech.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4983548+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708568", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 31.0, "ContributionID": 708568, "EditedText": "Mr Gallie, you should know better than that; who is or is not in the chamber at any time is not a matter of order.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Gallie, you should know better than that; who is or is not in the chamber at any time is not a matter of order.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C708572", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 39.0, "ContributionID": 708572, "EditedText": "I welcome what Mr McLeish said about manufacturing industries. The glass industry and food processing industry are high but efficient users of energy. What consideration has Mr McLeish given to the new energy taxation policies proposed by the chancellor, and what will he do to ensure that such taxes do not create massive damage to manufacturing industries in Scotland?", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome what Mr McLeish said about manufacturing industries. The glass industry and food processing industry are high but efficient users of energy. What consideration has Mr McLeish given to the new energy taxation policies proposed by the chancellor, and what will he do to ensure that such taxes do not create massive damage to manufacturing industries in Scotland?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C708573", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 41.0, "ContributionID": 708573, "EditedText": "Phil Gallie raises an important point; representations have been made to the chancellor on the matter. We have also had representations from a number of industries, for example, the paper industry, which is the biggest industry in my constituency and a major user of energy. I hope that the final shape of the levy when it is proposed will reflect the concerns that we have expressed to the chancellor. In bringing the subject of manufacturing to the Parliament, I hope to enlist members' support for the proposed strategy; members' views on it are vital. We have all been saddened by the job losses in manufacturing in recent weeks. I will say something later about our plans for sharpening up our response to such events. However, I hope that today we can avoid focusing on particular company or area problems and can concentrate our discussion on the future of the manufacturing sector and how best we can support it. I want to offer colleagues a good run at the issue, so I will try to keep my opening comments short. However, I will cover a few areas where the Scottish Executive is already highly active and on which the debate can usefully focus. We are preparing an overall economic strategy for Scotland. Our manufacturing strategy will be set in that context. The economic strategy is at an embryonic stage, but the aim is to produce a framework in which more detailed strategic and policy work can be taken forward, to target more effectively the Government's objectives. It is critical that we work out the different roles of Europe, Westminster and this Parliament, so that in the jigsaw of the Scottish economy we know where we can exercise leverage and positive change and can ensure that there is no duplication. A proliferation of programmes that duplicate each other or appear to do so is of no use to industry.", "EditedTextHTML": "Phil Gallie raises an important point; representations have been made to the chancellor on the matter. We have also had representations from a number of industries, for example, the paper industry, which is the biggest industry in my constituency and a major user of energy. I hope that the final shape of the levy when it is proposed will reflect the concerns that we have expressed to the chancellor.

In bringing the subject of manufacturing to the Parliament, I hope to enlist members' support for the proposed strategy; members' views on it are vital. We have all been saddened by the job losses in manufacturing in recent weeks. I will say something later about our plans for sharpening up our response to such events. However, I hope that today we can avoid focusing on particular company or area problems and can concentrate our discussion on the future of the manufacturing sector and how best we can support it.

I want to offer colleagues a good run at the issue, so I will try to keep my opening comments short. However, I will cover a few areas where the Scottish Executive is already highly active and on which the debate can usefully focus.

We are preparing an overall economic strategy for Scotland. Our manufacturing strategy will be set in that context. The economic strategy is at an embryonic stage, but the aim is to produce a framework in which more detailed strategic and policy work can be taken forward, to target more effectively the Government's objectives. It is critical that we work out the different roles of Europe, Westminster and this Parliament, so that in the jigsaw of the Scottish economy we know where we can exercise leverage and positive change and can ensure that there is no duplication. A proliferation of programmes that duplicate each other or appear to do so is of no use to industry.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C708577", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 49.0, "ContributionID": 708577, "EditedText": "I warmed to the first part of the question—although I thought that it was too good to be true—then we stumbled into traditional comments about budgets. I endorse Alex Neil's point that one of the key things about California— silicon valley in particular, or throughout the state—is the partnership between education and the private and public sectors; that is crucial to what we are doing. We have gone past the ideological period in which Government did not have a role, but when we are using public funds, it is crucial to ensure that we get the maximum leverage and get added value for every pound that we spend. I share Alex Neil's concerns on that important point. I said that we had set up a science strategy review group to consider the key issues and mechanisms that are necessary to implement the strategy. Funding will be put in place by Scottish Enterprise to help higher education institutions and research institutes move ideas from the lab to the marketplace. Other UK-wide initiatives include the joint infrastructure fund, university challenge and science enterprise. The challenge recently provided a consortium of universities with £4 million to establish an institute of enterprise for Scotland in Glasgow. Another issue on which we can build consensus is skills and training. Conservative and SNP colleagues, Liberal Democrats and ourselves are united in believing that we must have a skilled and trained work force, but we must increase the momentum of building skills for the knowledge economy. Business success depends increasingly on people who have the right skills in the right place at the right time. We published the skills strategy for a competitive Scotland in March, and we are establishing a Scottish labour market unit by the end of the year to highlight the skills that are needed in Scotland. Modern apprenticeships are a central plank of our strategy, so we have set a new, challenging target of 20,000 modern apprenticeships by 2003; that represents a near doubling of the current number. That is a challenge to every member in the chamber; doubling the number will require all of us—not just the Executive—to do a real advocacy job. The university for industry is another important development to help people and businesses reduce the skills gaps that are a barrier to growth in some sectors. Indeed, the Scottish Council Development and Industry recently published a good report that highlights some of its critical concerns. The university for industry project is progressing well; the establishment of the company is expected next month, and the appointment of key personnel will take place over the next few months. Further, we are strongly encouraging firms to take up Investors in People as a way of modernising management culture; more than 3,500 firms in Scotland have committed themselves to IIP. In addition, individual learning accounts will offer a way of helping people to invest in their own learning with employers' help and help foster a culture of lifelong learning. People in the workplace should empower themselves and embrace lifelong learning. Individual learning accounts are a positive way of employers, Government and individuals coming together financially, so that individuals can secure their own skills future. Those accounts will be complementary to some of our existing programmes. The enterprise network strategies have an important role to play; they have been updated to take account of key Government priorities and are fully consistent with the need to broaden the knowledge base and help advance the vision of a knowledge economy. Against the background of the increasing globalisation of companies and commerce, Scottish Enterprise is seeking to promote greater international involvement in our business base and to encourage Scottish businesses to be more aware of opportunities in world markets and of the need to compete effectively at world-class level. The Parliament and the Executive need to take e-commerce seriously. There is a grave danger that if we do not accept the challenge today, it will become a threat to Scottish companies tomorrow. I hope that over the next few weeks—and I will be discussing this with the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee—we will have a fairly high- profile and properly structured and focused campaign to ensure that we do not miss out. If we need one example of where the future is, we can consider British Telecommunications. It has announced that it spends £5 billion on procurement every year—a staggering sum. It intends to save £1 billion every year by doing all its procurement over the internet. If that is an indication of how corporate Scotland is developing, it is clear to me that to be outwith e- commerce and the internet will lead to severe trading difficulties. That is why it is not a fashion to talk about e-commerce and the internet—they are a fundamental reality in every workplace in Scotland. We need to address that.", "EditedTextHTML": "I warmed to the first part of the question—although I thought that it was too good to be true—then we stumbled into traditional comments about budgets. I endorse Alex Neil's point that one of the key things about California— silicon valley in particular, or throughout the state—is the partnership between education and the private and public sectors; that is crucial to what we are doing. We have gone past the ideological period in which Government did not have a role, but when we are using public funds, it is crucial to ensure that we get the maximum leverage and get added value for every pound that we spend. I share Alex Neil's concerns on that important point.

I said that we had set up a science strategy review group to consider the key issues and mechanisms that are necessary to implement the strategy. Funding will be put in place by Scottish Enterprise to help higher education institutions and research institutes move ideas from the lab to the marketplace. Other UK-wide initiatives include the joint infrastructure fund, university challenge and science enterprise. The challenge recently provided a consortium of universities with £4 million to establish an institute of enterprise for Scotland in Glasgow.

Another issue on which we can build consensus is skills and training. Conservative and SNP colleagues, Liberal Democrats and ourselves are united in believing that we must have a skilled and trained work force, but we must increase the momentum of building skills for the knowledge economy. Business success depends increasingly on people who have the right skills in the right place at the right time. We published the skills strategy for a competitive Scotland in March, and we are establishing a Scottish labour market unit by the end of the year to highlight the skills that are needed in Scotland.

Modern apprenticeships are a central plank of our strategy, so we have set a new, challenging target of 20,000 modern apprenticeships by 2003; that represents a near doubling of the current number. That is a challenge to every member in the chamber; doubling the number will require all of us—not just the Executive—to do a real advocacy job.

The university for industry is another important development to help people and businesses reduce the skills gaps that are a barrier to growth in some sectors. Indeed, the Scottish Council Development and Industry recently published a good report that highlights some of its critical concerns. The university for industry project is progressing well; the establishment of the company is expected next month, and the appointment of key personnel will take place over the next few months.

Further, we are strongly encouraging firms to take up Investors in People as a way of modernising management culture; more than 3,500 firms in Scotland have committed themselves to IIP. In addition, individual learning accounts will offer a way of helping people to invest in their own learning with employers' help and help foster a culture of lifelong learning. People in the workplace should empower themselves and embrace lifelong learning. Individual learning accounts are a positive way of employers, Government and individuals coming together financially, so that individuals can secure their own skills future. Those accounts will be complementary to some of our existing programmes.

The enterprise network strategies have an important role to play; they have been updated to take account of key Government priorities and are fully consistent with the need to broaden the knowledge base and help advance the vision of a knowledge economy.

Against the background of the increasing globalisation of companies and commerce, Scottish Enterprise is seeking to promote greater international involvement in our business base and to encourage Scottish businesses to be more aware of opportunities in world markets and of the need to compete effectively at world-class level.

The Parliament and the Executive need to take e-commerce seriously. There is a grave danger that if we do not accept the challenge today, it will become a threat to Scottish companies tomorrow. I hope that over the next few weeks—and I will be discussing this with the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee—we will have a fairly high- profile and properly structured and focused campaign to ensure that we do not miss out.

If we need one example of where the future is, we can consider British Telecommunications. It has announced that it spends £5 billion on procurement every year—a staggering sum. It intends to save £1 billion every year by doing all

its procurement over the internet. If that is an indication of how corporate Scotland is developing, it is clear to me that to be outwith e- commerce and the internet will lead to severe trading difficulties. That is why it is not a fashion to talk about e-commerce and the internet—they are a fundamental reality in every workplace in Scotland. We need to address that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C708583", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 61.0, "ContributionID": 708583, "EditedText": "I am happy to deal with that issue. Although we have changed the map, we need to ensure that in that context we are investing in the value-added sector that Andrew Wilson mentioned. I can reassure him that it is being considered, to see whether we can improve it. I am conscious of the time, but there is a great deal to be said about what we are doing in business and industry. Small businesses make a crucial contribution to the economy, but we need to increase the start-up rate, which is not as good as it should be. We are committed to facilitating easy access for business to all forms of local advice and funding. We have a target of 40,000 new businesses by 2003 and 100,000 by 2009. We have introduced a £12 million business growth fund to achieve that. I know that the Conservatives are interested in better regulation; so am I. I have met the Federation of Small Businesses, the Forum of Private Business and industry generally, and there is no doubt that there is too much regulation in many areas. That is a given. I have asked the organisations that we have consulted to be specific. I do not want to talk glibly and generally about the problems. This Parliament can influence Westminster on some of the bigger issues. I see that Phil Gallie is scribbling furiously—no doubt what I have said will return to me another day. The rapid response initiative is important. We have had significant job losses recently. We have a good response mechanism at the moment, although we cannot intervene in every company in the country. We need to ensure, however, that we have the best system. A review has been undertaken and we now need to have a brief consultation with Scottish Enterprise, the local enterprise company network, the local authorities and the trade unions. We need to improve our labour market intelligence. Sometimes, we get information only by luck, because there is a massive number of companies. In some situations, companies could be helped and job losses staved off through intervention by a local enterprise company, a local council or central Government. In other cases, however, intervention would make no difference. At that point, we need to sharpen up what we are doing. When a business collapses, we need to be able to offer the most effective and co-ordinated task force approach to get people into jobs, training or education and to ensure that they have a decent future. We are announcing a radical review of the rapid response initiative. We want to listen to the people of Scotland and invite them to give us examples of best practice. We want to make sure that we have in place the best set-up. We have arranged a series of practitioners' workshops that will take place towards the end of October in Glasgow, Edinburgh, Stirling and Aberdeen. Representatives from the LECs, local authorities, the Employment Service, the Benefits Agency and the careers guidance office will be invited to attend. I also want to consult the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee, which is chaired by John Swinney. We have a good programme ahead. There is a powerful vision for the future of manufacturing in Scotland. Achieving that will require collaboration and partnership, and I hope that this Parliament whole-heartedly endorses the importance of manufacturing. It is vital for the 300,000 people who are employed in industry, for the new companies that we want to establish and for the new jobs that we want to create. I move,That the Parliament believes that a vibrant manufacturing sector will continue to play an important part in Scotland's knowledge driven economy.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am happy to deal with that issue. Although we have changed the map, we need to ensure that in that context we are investing in the value-added sector that Andrew Wilson mentioned. I can reassure him that it is being considered, to see whether we can improve it.

I am conscious of the time, but there is a great deal to be said about what we are doing in business and industry.

Small businesses make a crucial contribution to the economy, but we need to increase the start-up rate, which is not as good as it should be. We are committed to facilitating easy access for business to all forms of local advice and funding. We have a target of 40,000 new businesses by 2003 and 100,000 by 2009. We have introduced a £12 million business growth fund to achieve that.

I know that the Conservatives are interested in better regulation; so am I. I have met the Federation of Small Businesses, the Forum of Private Business and industry generally, and there is no doubt that there is too much regulation in many areas. That is a given. I have asked the organisations that we have consulted to be specific. I do not want to talk glibly and generally about the problems. This Parliament can influence Westminster on some of the bigger issues.

I see that Phil Gallie is scribbling furiously—no doubt what I have said will return to me another day.

The rapid response initiative is important. We have had significant job losses recently. We have a good response mechanism at the moment, although we cannot intervene in every company in

the country. We need to ensure, however, that we have the best system. A review has been undertaken and we now need to have a brief consultation with Scottish Enterprise, the local enterprise company network, the local authorities and the trade unions.

We need to improve our labour market intelligence. Sometimes, we get information only by luck, because there is a massive number of companies.

In some situations, companies could be helped and job losses staved off through intervention by a local enterprise company, a local council or central Government. In other cases, however, intervention would make no difference. At that point, we need to sharpen up what we are doing. When a business collapses, we need to be able to offer the most effective and co-ordinated task force approach to get people into jobs, training or education and to ensure that they have a decent future.

We are announcing a radical review of the rapid response initiative. We want to listen to the people of Scotland and invite them to give us examples of best practice. We want to make sure that we have in place the best set-up. We have arranged a series of practitioners' workshops that will take place towards the end of October in Glasgow, Edinburgh, Stirling and Aberdeen. Representatives from the LECs, local authorities, the Employment Service, the Benefits Agency and the careers guidance office will be invited to attend.

I also want to consult the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee, which is chaired by John Swinney.

We have a good programme ahead. There is a powerful vision for the future of manufacturing in Scotland. Achieving that will require collaboration and partnership, and I hope that this Parliament whole-heartedly endorses the importance of manufacturing. It is vital for the 300,000 people who are employed in industry, for the new companies that we want to establish and for the new jobs that we want to create.

I move,

That the Parliament believes that a vibrant manufacturing sector will continue to play an important part in Scotland's knowledge driven economy.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708586", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 68.0, "ContributionID": 708586, "EditedText": "They are on their way.", "EditedTextHTML": "They are on their way.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C708588", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 72.0, "ContributionID": 708588, "EditedText": "The issue of competitiveness is not reserved to Westminster. The manufacturing strategy group will consider productivity and competitiveness and will share its findings with the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee. It is clearly an issue that needs to be considered in a Scottish context.", "EditedTextHTML": "The issue of competitiveness is not reserved to Westminster. The manufacturing strategy group will consider productivity and competitiveness and will share its findings with the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee. It is clearly an issue that needs to be considered in a Scottish context.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C708596", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 88.0, "ContributionID": 708596, "EditedText": "Tut, tut.", "EditedTextHTML": "Tut, tut.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708599", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 94.0, "ContributionID": 708599, "EditedText": "Before I call the next speaker, I say to members that, with the best will in the world, my deputy will not be able to call everybody who wants to speak. We are about a quarter of an hour adrift from the timetable already.", "EditedTextHTML": "Before I call the next speaker, I say to members that, with the best will in the world, my deputy will not be able to call everybody who wants to speak. We are about a quarter of an hour adrift from the timetable already.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C708612", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Goldie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 121.0, "ContributionID": 708612, "EditedText": "Mr Raffan, it is always a joy to be reminded why you are no longer with us. Laughter. As recently as within the past 24 hours I delighted in the transport offered now by ScotRail on its improved route from Glasgow to Edinburgh, which was made possible, I suspect, by the privatisation of the system by the last Conservative Government. If such difficulties confront our manufacturing and industrial base—and I make no apology for continuing the horticultural analogy—what has proved to be the Dutch elm disease of that sector? There is no question that Labour's high pound has been the death knell for much of our export business. I was particularly interested in a recent Scottish Council Development and Industry survey, which identified that the high value of the sterling in Scotland has adversely affected 87 per cent of all businesses, resulting in 69 per cent losing export orders. The chilling factor was that it created 31 per cent of redundancies. To me, that is a factor that cannot be disregarded. The strength of the pound, caused by current high interest rates, is actively deterring what that sector can do. The Executive should use all influence available to it to consult colleagues down south as to when a reduction in interest rates might be considered.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Raffan, it is always a joy to be reminded why you are no longer with us. [Laughter.]

As recently as within the past 24 hours I delighted in the transport offered now by ScotRail on its improved route from Glasgow to Edinburgh, which was made possible, I suspect, by the privatisation of the system by the last Conservative Government.

If such difficulties confront our manufacturing and industrial base—and I make no apology for continuing the horticultural analogy—what has proved to be the Dutch elm disease of that sector? There is no question that Labour's high pound has been the death knell for much of our export business. I was particularly interested in a recent Scottish Council Development and Industry survey, which identified that the high value of the sterling in Scotland has adversely affected 87 per cent of all businesses, resulting in 69 per cent losing export orders. The chilling factor was that it created 31 per cent of redundancies. To me, that is a factor that cannot be disregarded. The strength of the pound, caused by current high interest rates, is actively deterring what that sector can do. The Executive should use all influence available to it to consult colleagues down south as to when a reduction in interest rates might be considered.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1901E57P277C708617", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Allan", "ID": 1901, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Cunninghame North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Allan Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Allan Wilson (Cunninghame North) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 132.0, "ContributionID": 708617, "EditedText": "In the spirit of the speeches that we have just heard, I believe that there is political consensus across the chamber and throughout the committee structure. That consensus is that Parliament believes, in the words of the motion, \"that a vibrant manufacturing sector will continue to play an important part in Scotland's knowledge driven economy.\" Members of the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee, under the convenership of John Swinney, have taken a consensual approach to the common objective of realising a modern, diverse, competitive knowledge-based economy for Scotland. We can compete in European and wider world markets for business to sustain the economic growth that we all desire. That demands skill levels and further and higher educational throughput on a par with, if not superior to, those prevailing in continental Europe and north America. It demands that financial assistance to industry and business is targeted not only to maximise opportunity, but to address need. It also demands that the manufacturing sector, on which we are concentrating today, plays a full and vital part in building and sustaining the knowledge- based economy that we seek. Indeed, there is some evidence to demonstrate—it has already been touched on by the minister—that we are already succeeding significantly in doing that. Only this morning, the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee commenced its initial inquiry into the effectiveness of what is known as the enterprise network and its success, or otherwise, in promoting various strategies, including the strategy for sustaining and promoting a vibrant manufacturing sector within our knowledge economy. The inquiry's remit includes an investigation into economic development, into post-school and vocational education and training and into business support services at a local level. It encompasses an examination of the performance of the organisations that provide those services, such as local enterprise companies, local authorities, chambers of commerce, enterprise trusts and the whole range of ad hoc agencies. The inquiry will focus on the co-ordination of the services that are provided by those agencies and it will consider the degree of overlap and whether there is any disparity or duplication between the organisations. The objective of all that is to identify ways in which the effectiveness of those services can be improved. In the short time available, I will concentrate on the effectiveness of our enterprise network in delivering the strategy and the targets set by the Executive. I would argue that the Scottish Executive and Scottish Enterprise have been successful in delivering on part of the agenda. As we have heard, exports from Scotland grew in the past year. The value of all manufactured goods sold overseas rose from £18.4 billion to £19.2 billion—a substantial increase of £800 million. Scottish Enterprise helped more than 1,700 export companies during the past year to realise an increase in sales of £436 million, an outstanding example of which was the £4.4 million Russian franchise that A G Barr, the soft drinks manufacturer, secured with the help of Scottish Trade International. I am sure that we would all agree that we could do, and would wish to do, much better. The strategy that was outlined by the minister can achieve that, but it is vital that the strategic objectives and targets are taken up by those within the enterprise network who are charged with supporting manufacturing industry at a local level. There is some evidence—perhaps anecdotal— that, despite the manufacturing presence in all our constituencies, not all local enterprise companies give the necessary emphasis or impetus to the manufacturing sector in their deliberations. That failing in the network will need to be addressed before our strategic objectives for the sector as a whole can be realised. I hope that this Parliament, the minister and the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee will take that on board.", "EditedTextHTML": "In the spirit of the speeches that we have just heard, I believe that there is political consensus across the chamber and throughout the committee structure. That consensus is that Parliament believes, in the words of the motion,

\"that a vibrant manufacturing sector will continue to play an important part in Scotland's knowledge driven economy.\"

Members of the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee, under the convenership of John Swinney, have taken a consensual approach to the common objective of realising a modern, diverse, competitive knowledge-based economy for Scotland. We can compete in European and wider world markets for business to sustain the economic growth that we all desire.

That demands skill levels and further and higher educational throughput on a par with, if not superior to, those prevailing in continental Europe and north America. It demands that financial assistance to industry and business is targeted not

only to maximise opportunity, but to address need. It also demands that the manufacturing sector, on which we are concentrating today, plays a full and vital part in building and sustaining the knowledge- based economy that we seek. Indeed, there is some evidence to demonstrate—it has already been touched on by the minister—that we are already succeeding significantly in doing that.

Only this morning, the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee commenced its initial inquiry into the effectiveness of what is known as the enterprise network and its success, or otherwise, in promoting various strategies, including the strategy for sustaining and promoting a vibrant manufacturing sector within our knowledge economy.

The inquiry's remit includes an investigation into economic development, into post-school and vocational education and training and into business support services at a local level. It encompasses an examination of the performance of the organisations that provide those services, such as local enterprise companies, local authorities, chambers of commerce, enterprise trusts and the whole range of ad hoc agencies. The inquiry will focus on the co-ordination of the services that are provided by those agencies and it will consider the degree of overlap and whether there is any disparity or duplication between the organisations. The objective of all that is to identify ways in which the effectiveness of those services can be improved.

In the short time available, I will concentrate on the effectiveness of our enterprise network in delivering the strategy and the targets set by the Executive. I would argue that the Scottish Executive and Scottish Enterprise have been successful in delivering on part of the agenda. As we have heard, exports from Scotland grew in the past year. The value of all manufactured goods sold overseas rose from £18.4 billion to £19.2 billion—a substantial increase of £800 million. Scottish Enterprise helped more than 1,700 export companies during the past year to realise an increase in sales of £436 million, an outstanding example of which was the £4.4 million Russian franchise that A G Barr, the soft drinks manufacturer, secured with the help of Scottish Trade International.

I am sure that we would all agree that we could do, and would wish to do, much better. The strategy that was outlined by the minister can achieve that, but it is vital that the strategic objectives and targets are taken up by those within the enterprise network who are charged with supporting manufacturing industry at a local level. There is some evidence—perhaps anecdotal— that, despite the manufacturing presence in all our constituencies, not all local enterprise companies give the necessary emphasis or impetus to the manufacturing sector in their deliberations.

That failing in the network will need to be addressed before our strategic objectives for the sector as a whole can be realised. I hope that this Parliament, the minister and the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee will take that on board.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C708621", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 142.0, "ContributionID": 708621, "EditedText": "The tautology in the Executive's motion, which states that manufacturing is a good thing, belies a severe problem in the economy and in the Government's strategy. Any proper growth strategy requires both macro-economic and supply-side measures. In this Scottish Parliament, only supply-side measures are available to us. However, if we are to target properly the limited powers that we have, we need to understand the thrust of UK and wider macro-economic policy and the impact that that has on the Scottish economy, so that we can mitigate or take advantage of it. All parties—and certainly the entire Scottish business community—agree that the high interest rate and exchange rate strategy that this Government has pursued since it came to power has severely damaged the Scottish manufacturing and export base. In August, at a meeting in Inverness of the Scottish Council Development and Industry in the Highlands and Islands, one company—which must remain unnamed—claimed that an increase in interest rates would have a serious impact on its business. Interest rates did increase. The company said that 75 per cent of its business was abroad and that that was failing dramatically. It added that the level of the currency was having a devastating effect. The argument is unassailable: the period of sustained damage that has been done to our manufacturing sector has led to cuts in jobs and— critically—in investment. Investment has been hammered during the past 18 months and, as a result, our competitiveness in the long term is in dire straits. Another problem for sustainability is the fact that we have a crying need to diversify our export sector, although Mr McLeish did not mention that in his opening remarks. About a third of all our exports are in one sector—electronics—where about two thirds of the inputs that are used are imported. The effect is that companies are cushioned from the effects of the high value of sterling, because their inputs are cheaper. That exacerbates the problem of concentration in one or two sectors. Nothing that we have heard here today or from Gordon Brown's monetary policy committee addresses that problem. That is regrettable, because the situation was entirely unnecessary. Supposed inflationary pressures in the south of England meant that Mr Brown faced a dilemma. He had to take the sting out of the economy but, having accepted the fiscal policies of the Conservative Administration, he was left with only one tool—interest rates.", "EditedTextHTML": "The tautology in the Executive's motion, which states that manufacturing is a good thing, belies a severe problem in the economy and in the Government's strategy. Any proper growth strategy requires both macro-economic and supply-side measures. In this Scottish Parliament, only supply-side measures are available to us. However, if we are to target properly the limited powers that we have, we need to understand the thrust of UK and wider macro-economic policy and the impact that that has on the Scottish economy, so that we can mitigate or take advantage of it.

All parties—and certainly the entire Scottish business community—agree that the high interest rate and exchange rate strategy that this Government has pursued since it came to power has severely damaged the Scottish manufacturing and export base. In August, at a meeting in Inverness of the Scottish Council Development and Industry in the Highlands and Islands, one company—which must remain unnamed—claimed that an increase in interest rates would have a serious impact on its business. Interest rates did increase. The company said that 75 per cent of its business was abroad and that that was failing dramatically. It added that the level of the currency was having a devastating effect.

The argument is unassailable: the period of sustained damage that has been done to our manufacturing sector has led to cuts in jobs and— critically—in investment. Investment has been hammered during the past 18 months and, as a result, our competitiveness in the long term is in dire straits.

Another problem for sustainability is the fact that we have a crying need to diversify our export sector, although Mr McLeish did not mention that in his opening remarks. About a third of all our exports are in one sector—electronics—where about two thirds of the inputs that are used are imported. The effect is that companies are cushioned from the effects of the high value of sterling, because their inputs are cheaper. That exacerbates the problem of concentration in one or two sectors.

Nothing that we have heard here today or from Gordon Brown's monetary policy committee addresses that problem. That is regrettable, because the situation was entirely unnecessary. Supposed inflationary pressures in the south of England meant that Mr Brown faced a dilemma. He had to take the sting out of the economy but, having accepted the fiscal policies of the Conservative Administration, he was left with only one tool—interest rates.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C708623", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 146.0, "ContributionID": 708623, "EditedText": "As an anorak, I must point out that inflation records began in 1919. The reason that we want to join the euro is that the prospects for stability in the euro area are far greater than those in the UK monetary union. The reality is that, in the euro area, interest rates are lower and the exchange rates are more sustainable. That is what we want to achieve; we do not want to be in the position that we are in.", "EditedTextHTML": "As an anorak, I must point out that inflation records began in 1919. The reason that we want to join the euro is that the prospects for stability in the euro area are far greater than those in the UK monetary union. The reality is that, in the euro area, interest rates are lower and the exchange rates are more sustainable. That is what we want to achieve; we do not want to be in the position that we are in.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1901E57P277C708626", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Allan", "ID": 1901, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Cunninghame North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Allan Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Allan Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 152.0, "ContributionID": 708626, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C708627", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 154.0, "ContributionID": 708627, "EditedText": "In a moment.Winston Churchill once said:\"they called me the worst Chancellor in history and looking back I am inclined to agree\". I wonder whether Gordon Brown would be so humble, given the past 18 months? We wonder whether, in the dead of night, Gordon Brown suffers the occasional unquiet dream, with a voice telling him that his economic approach bears a frightening resemblance to the ordeal that Lady Thatcher inflicted on the manufacturing sector in the early 1980s. Professor Wynne Godley, a former Treasury wise man, said: \"I still have difficulty believing that I heard Gordon Brown, who once seemed so reasonable and humane, regurgitate Thatcherite platitudes at the Labour Party Conference. With my own ears I heard him say that there would be no soft options, no easy solutions and no u-turns\". Why is it that Gordon Brown's priority is not to loosen fiscal policy through income tax when he is tightening monetary policy, the damage from which is so palpable? Why bother doing either? We have sought in this debate to express not only vigorous criticism of the macro-economic context, but visionary, positive ideas—as outlined by John Swinney—about what we can contribute to the wider debate. We do not know enough about what is happening in the economy. As Allan Wilson showed, the statistics can be made to say whatever one likes. The reality is that no minister can tell me what the added value of exports to the economy is. We know nothing about trade, imports or productivity. No comprehensive information about what is happening in the Scottish economy is available. That is a gap that needs to be filled. I quote from the excellent text \"An Illustrated Guide to the Scottish Economy\" from that fine institution, the Royal Bank of Scotland. We all got a copy of it earlier in the year. It says: \"As the Parliament embarks on its historic journey, it is in danger of developing economic policy shrouded in a veil of ignorance . . . Better information enhances analysis. That, in turn, should enable the Parliament to achieve and deliver on what it was established to provide: better choices for Scotland.\" The fact is that the Executive has no plans to present more information about what is going on in the Scottish economy, which this amendment would allow them to do. The amendment is a test for members. By backing it, they can ensure that they are contributing positively to a more inclusive Scottish politics, where Opposition ideas can be taken on board. Members must vote for the amendment. That will be the real measure of just how constructive members of the Scottish Parliament are being.", "EditedTextHTML": "In a moment.

Winston Churchill once said:

\"they called me the worst Chancellor in history and looking back I am inclined to agree\".

I wonder whether Gordon Brown would be so humble, given the past 18 months? We wonder whether, in the dead of night, Gordon Brown suffers the occasional unquiet dream, with a voice telling him that his economic approach bears a frightening resemblance to the ordeal that Lady Thatcher inflicted on the manufacturing sector in the early 1980s.

Professor Wynne Godley, a former Treasury wise man, said:

\"I still have difficulty believing that I heard Gordon Brown, who once seemed so reasonable and humane, regurgitate Thatcherite platitudes at the Labour Party Conference. With my own ears I heard him say that there would be no soft options, no easy solutions and no u-turns\".

Why is it that Gordon Brown's priority is not to loosen fiscal policy through income tax when he is tightening monetary policy, the damage from which is so palpable? Why bother doing either?

We have sought in this debate to express not only vigorous criticism of the macro-economic context, but visionary, positive ideas—as outlined by John Swinney—about what we can contribute to the wider debate. We do not know enough about what is happening in the economy. As Allan Wilson showed, the statistics can be made to say whatever one likes. The reality is that no minister can tell me what the added value of exports to the economy is. We know nothing about trade, imports or productivity. No comprehensive information about what is happening in the Scottish economy is available. That is a gap that needs to be filled.

I quote from the excellent text \"An Illustrated Guide to the Scottish Economy\" from that fine institution, the Royal Bank of Scotland. We all got a copy of it earlier in the year. It says:

\"As the Parliament embarks on its historic journey, it is in danger of developing economic policy shrouded in a veil of ignorance . . . Better information enhances analysis. That, in turn, should enable the Parliament to achieve and deliver on what it was established to provide: better choices for Scotland.\"

The fact is that the Executive has no plans to present more information about what is going on in the Scottish economy, which this amendment would allow them to do. The amendment is a test for members. By backing it, they can ensure that they are contributing positively to a more inclusive Scottish politics, where Opposition ideas can be taken on board. Members must vote for the amendment. That will be the real measure of just how constructive members of the Scottish Parliament are being.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1752E75P296C708628", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jamieson, Cathy", "ID": 1752, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Cathy Jamieson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Cathy Jamieson (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 157.0, "ContributionID": 708628, "EditedText": "The history of Ayrshire is almost like the history of the manufacturing industry. Murray Tosh may also have some comments to make about Ayrshire but, when I was younger—like anyone who was brought up there— I was conscious of the importance of manufacturing industry. Everything was made locally: from the bricks in the local buildings to the locomotives that were exported worldwide; from the engineering products for the marine and automotive industries to the carpets and textiles that furnished our homes; and from the clothes that we wore and the shoes on our feet to the whisky—which some of us drank— and the red cola of Curries' Soft Drinks Ltd of Auchinleck, on which I was brought up. All those were manufactured by Scottish firms that were at the cutting edge of their markets. I recognise the impact of the global market on local economies. Current estimates suggest that less than a third of the jobs in the Scottish manufacturing sector are with Scottish-owned firms and that the majority of those are in the small business sector. I also recognise that globalisation has meant that decisions on investment, research and development, marketing strategies and so on are increasingly being taken by parent companies, with locally based management and trade unions often having little real say. Local communities, as Richard Simpson said, have even less say. I welcome today's important debate because there is no doubt in my mind that a successful manufacturing strategy is the key to economic prosperity and that further success and expansion in the service sector cannot happen without a sound manufacturing base. Henry McLeish said that we should not concentrate on localised problems, but look at the bigger picture. I would be failing in my duty if I did not concentrate to some extent on the problems that my constituency faces—I have a very keen interest in the future of the manufacturing sector in Ayrshire and particularly in my constituency.There have been some success stories in Ayrshire and I am sure that some of my colleagues would like to comment on them. The Ayrshire economic information group recently published a pamphlet on the Ayrshire labour market and skill trends. That pamphlet clearly identifies important issues. It says that the \"unemployment gap is a deeply embedded challenge for Ayrshire. The unemployment rate is roughly 50% higher in Ayrshire than in Scotland.\" I am not suggesting that we seek devolution for Ayrshire yet, or that it is not part of Scotland. However, as the pamphlet says, the Girvan travel- to-work area, which is wholly in my constituency, has the highest unemployment rate of all 308 travel-to-work areas in the UK. Moreover, East Ayrshire Council, which is partly within my constituency, has the fourth highest unemployment rate—centred predominantly on former coalfields—of all the 32 local authority areas in Scotland. I am very aware of the difficulties faced by local firms in my area. Textiles firms in Cumnock and firms in Girvan in the south of my constituency are constantly undertaking balancing acts to try to keep jobs in the area. I want to see the implementation of a strategy that addresses the needs of those firms. We will have to look at the infrastructure. I do not really want to mention the A77 and its impact on south Ayrshire, but I would be remiss in my duties if I did not. I want progress in research and development, and I would like us to give some thought to areas that we have not yet explored. Examples would include practical defence diversification projects and the possibility of further research and development into the technologies relating to renewable energy sources. Those are areas in which Scotland can once again produce research and development and—increasingly—the products that can be aimed at a worldwide market. I want my constituency to get a share of the jobs and investment, and I want support for the local companies that have been there through the difficult times. I am sure that the strategy will address those points.", "EditedTextHTML": "The history of Ayrshire is almost like the history of the manufacturing industry. Murray Tosh may also have some comments to make about Ayrshire but, when I was younger—like anyone who was brought up there— I was conscious of the importance of manufacturing industry.

Everything was made locally: from the bricks in the local buildings to the locomotives that were exported worldwide; from the engineering products for the marine and automotive industries to the carpets and textiles that furnished our homes; and from the clothes that we wore and the shoes on our feet to the whisky—which some of us drank— and the red cola of Curries' Soft Drinks Ltd of Auchinleck, on which I was brought up. All those were manufactured by Scottish firms that were at the cutting edge of their markets.

I recognise the impact of the global market on local economies. Current estimates suggest that less than a third of the jobs in the Scottish manufacturing sector are with Scottish-owned firms and that the majority of those are in the small business sector. I also recognise that globalisation has meant that decisions on investment, research and development, marketing strategies and so on are increasingly being taken by parent companies, with locally based management and trade unions often having little real say. Local communities, as Richard Simpson said, have even less say.

I welcome today's important debate because there is no doubt in my mind that a successful manufacturing strategy is the key to economic prosperity and that further success and expansion in the service sector cannot happen without a sound manufacturing base. Henry McLeish said that we should not concentrate on localised problems, but look at the bigger picture. I would be failing in my duty if I did not concentrate to some extent on the problems that my constituency faces—I have a very keen interest in the future of the manufacturing sector in Ayrshire and

particularly in my constituency.

There have been some success stories in Ayrshire and I am sure that some of my colleagues would like to comment on them. The Ayrshire economic information group recently published a pamphlet on the Ayrshire labour market and skill trends. That pamphlet clearly identifies important issues. It says that the

\"unemployment gap is a deeply embedded challenge for Ayrshire. The unemployment rate is roughly 50% higher in Ayrshire than in Scotland.\"

I am not suggesting that we seek devolution for Ayrshire yet, or that it is not part of Scotland. However, as the pamphlet says, the Girvan travel- to-work area, which is wholly in my constituency, has the highest unemployment rate of all 308 travel-to-work areas in the UK. Moreover, East Ayrshire Council, which is partly within my constituency, has the fourth highest unemployment rate—centred predominantly on former coalfields—of all the 32 local authority areas in Scotland.

I am very aware of the difficulties faced by local firms in my area. Textiles firms in Cumnock and firms in Girvan in the south of my constituency are constantly undertaking balancing acts to try to keep jobs in the area. I want to see the implementation of a strategy that addresses the needs of those firms. We will have to look at the infrastructure. I do not really want to mention the A77 and its impact on south Ayrshire, but I would be remiss in my duties if I did not.

I want progress in research and development, and I would like us to give some thought to areas that we have not yet explored. Examples would include practical defence diversification projects and the possibility of further research and development into the technologies relating to renewable energy sources. Those are areas in which Scotland can once again produce research and development and—increasingly—the products that can be aimed at a worldwide market.

I want my constituency to get a share of the jobs and investment, and I want support for the local companies that have been there through the difficult times. I am sure that the strategy will address those points.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C708637", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Goldie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 179.0, "ContributionID": 708637, "EditedText": "I remind Mr McAllion that when I specifically referred to directives—many more than Mr McAllion mentioned—I made it clear that I did not dispute the fact that they would be regarded in certain quarters as having virtue and merit. However, I felt that it was my job to point out that, in the context of the debate on manufacturing and industry, those regulations have had an effect.", "EditedTextHTML": "I remind Mr McAllion that when I specifically referred to directives—many more than Mr McAllion mentioned—I made it clear that I did not dispute the fact that they would be regarded in certain quarters as having virtue and merit. However, I felt that it was my job to point out that, in the context of the debate on manufacturing and industry, those regulations have had an effect.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2188E70P92C708631", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harper, Robin", "ID": 2188, "PartyName": "Scottish Green Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Green", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robin Harper", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robin Harper (Lothians) (Green): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 166.0, "ContributionID": 708631, "EditedText": "In their speeches, the minister and Mr Swinney hardly mentioned the encouragement of environmental excellence in manufacturing. Perhaps they believe that the subject is so big that it merits a separate debate. It will not surprise the chamber to know that I take a different view; I would like to have heard at least a passing reference to environmental concerns. Two firms, Motorola and East of Scotland Water, have won environmental awards to business. Those awards encourage environmental excellence, which those firms and many others are taking seriously. When he challenged the minister on performance criteria, John Swinney asked what performance criteria there should be. From the many examples put forward by Motorola and East of Scotland Water, waste minimisation and energy efficiency should be at the top of any list. In the early 1980s, several British firms were making wind turbines and a Scottish company installed a number of machines in California. At that time, British firms were competing on equal terms with their Danish rivals. Since then, as a result of a very modest amount of Government help, the Danish industry has flourished. It employs 12,000 people and exports its machines all over the world. Lacking any apparent interest or encouragement from our Government, the British industry has almost ceased to exist.", "EditedTextHTML": "In their speeches, the minister and Mr Swinney hardly mentioned the encouragement of environmental excellence in manufacturing. Perhaps they believe that the subject is so big that it merits a separate debate. It will not surprise the chamber to know that I take a different view; I would like to have heard at least a passing reference to environmental concerns.

Two firms, Motorola and East of Scotland Water, have won environmental awards to business. Those awards encourage environmental excellence, which those firms and many others are taking seriously. When he challenged the minister on performance criteria, John Swinney asked what performance criteria there should be. From the many examples put forward by Motorola and East of Scotland Water, waste minimisation and energy efficiency should be at the top of any list.

In the early 1980s, several British firms were making wind turbines and a Scottish company installed a number of machines in California. At that time, British firms were competing on equal terms with their Danish rivals. Since then, as a result of a very modest amount of Government help, the Danish industry has flourished. It employs 12,000 people and exports its machines all over the world. Lacking any apparent interest or encouragement from our Government, the British industry has almost ceased to exist.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2188E70P92C708633", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harper, Robin", "ID": 2188, "PartyName": "Scottish Green Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Green", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robin Harper", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robin Harper: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 170.0, "ContributionID": 708633, "EditedText": "A very brief one.", "EditedTextHTML": "A very brief one.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C708641", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 187.0, "ContributionID": 708641, "EditedText": "Please wind up.", "EditedTextHTML": "Please wind up.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2090E83P266C708644", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAllion, Mr John", "ID": 2090, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dundee East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John McAllion", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McAllion: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 193.0, "ContributionID": 708644, "EditedText": "I take the view that, if there is an elephant in the living room, we should at least recognise that it is there and try to do something about it. I hope that the Scottish Executive will do the same with interest rates and the exchange rate.", "EditedTextHTML": "I take the view that, if there is an elephant in the living room, we should at least recognise that it is there and try to do something about it. I hope that the Scottish Executive will do the same with interest rates and the exchange rate.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1931E120P189C708649", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Muldoon, Bristow", "ID": 1931, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Livingston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bristow Muldoon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bristow Muldoon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 205.0, "ContributionID": 708649, "EditedText": "There have been problems recently at Kvaerner, Continental and Levi. It will not always be possible for the Executive, or the UK Government, to save a plant as was achieved at Kvaerner. However, it is essential that we always explore all possibilities in order to protect and maintain a manufacturing capacity. Where we cannot achieve that outcome, it is also essential that we bring to bear whatever pressure we can on companies to ensure that staff receive equitable settlements, such as those that we are moving towards with Continental. We must also continue to implement retraining and re-employment packages, such as those that the Continental staff are benefiting from. In conclusion, I encourage members to support the Executive's motion and to remember the Conservatives' hypocrisy.", "EditedTextHTML": "There have been problems recently at Kvaerner, Continental and Levi. It will not always be possible for the Executive, or the UK Government, to save a plant as was achieved at Kvaerner. However, it is essential that we always explore all possibilities in order to protect and maintain a manufacturing capacity. Where we cannot achieve that outcome, it is also essential that we bring to bear whatever pressure we can on companies to ensure that staff receive equitable settlements, such as those that we are moving towards with Continental. We must also continue to implement retraining and re-employment packages, such as those that the Continental staff are benefiting from.

In conclusion, I encourage members to support the Executive's motion and to remember the Conservatives' hypocrisy.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C708651", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 210.0, "ContributionID": 708651, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1962E35P56C708656", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mundell, David", "ID": 1962, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Mundell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David Mundell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 220.0, "ContributionID": 708656, "EditedText": "All right, in view of the time, I will pass over Dumfries and Galloway for once; I will move on to e-commerce. I agree with John McAllion—e-commerce is not a substitute for manufacturing industry. It is also not a highway for it, although there are people working in research and development who are investigating methods of passing whisky and other goods down the internet—Laughter. If we pull that one off, we really will have done well. However, there is an important point on research and development, Henry. Unless research and development is really happening here in Scotland, we will not have the manufacturing to follow through. We have to grasp the e-commerce issue, even in the manufacturing sector. It will completely change the dynamic in industry. There will not be the distributors that many of our manufacturers work with at the moment—suppliers will deal directly with customers, and if they do not do it electronically, the deal will not happen. Hewlett-Packard in the United States will not accept correspondence unless it comes via the internet. It will not accept suppliers who do not do business in that way. We have to take up the e-commerce challenge.", "EditedTextHTML": "All right, in view of the time, I will pass over Dumfries and Galloway for once; I will move on to e-commerce. I agree with John McAllion—e-commerce is not a substitute for manufacturing industry. It is also not a highway for it, although there are people working in research and development who are investigating methods of passing whisky and other goods down the internet—[Laughter.] If we pull that one off, we really will have done well.

However, there is an important point on research and development, Henry. Unless research and development is really happening here in Scotland, we will not have the manufacturing to follow through. We have to grasp the e-commerce issue, even in the manufacturing sector. It will completely change the dynamic in industry. There will not be the distributors that many of our manufacturers work with at the moment—suppliers will deal directly with customers, and if they do not do it electronically, the deal will not happen. Hewlett-Packard in the United States will not accept correspondence unless it comes via the internet. It will not accept suppliers who do not do business in that way. We have to take up the e-commerce challenge.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C708663", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 238.0, "ContributionID": 708663, "EditedText": "Nick Johnston has five minutes in which to wind up for the Scottish Conservatives.", "EditedTextHTML": "Nick Johnston has five minutes in which to wind up for the Scottish Conservatives.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C708679", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 273.0, "ContributionID": 708679, "EditedText": "I will not give way, as I want to proceed on this issue. A lot of good points came up during the debate and I want to reply to them. Interruption. Members may think that that is humorous, but I will pursue those points, as that is the object of winding up. The rapid response initiative is designed to be active prior to the announcement of closures and redundancies. It is also designed to try to deal with the distress and concerns that arise at that time. We have seen recently how the service can be of some assistance. Therefore, I appeal to the SNP to accept that we are being proactive, not reactive. We require a combination of prior and previous experience so that we can tackle those issues. John Swinney raised the question about production or market focus—of course, it has to be both, because the value-added approach is the key. It must be present at all stages: research, production, marketing and customer care. That hits on the good point that Margo MacDonald made. I think that my definition of a manufacturing strategy would concur with her definition. There is a very thin dividing line between manufacturing and services. For example, Motherwell Bridge is a company that is doing extraordinarily well, but it has support services that mirror and complement the manufacturing element. The two elements are linked—both are about prosperity in the workplace. IBM is another example. It sends brilliant products all over Europe and has a multilingual call centre, which employs 350 people, that services those products in Europe. Is that manufacturing or is it service? The real issue is that the distinctions are blurred. Margo MacDonald made a good point and, as far as we are concerned, that is the way to go. We heard about the supply chain. I wish to raise an issue that is important for Kilmarnock. Cathy Jamieson mentioned it, I think. We visited a brilliant sandwich company in Ayrshire that makes 28,000 sandwiches, baguettes—it gets more complicated—and ciabattas every day. This is to do with supply chains—not nuclear science or even the knowledge economy—and the basic raw products that come into a very distinguished and impressive factory. Where does that company get its bread? Part of the supply comes from Paris and the other part comes from Cheshire. On supply chain economics, my appeal is for Scottish companies to think about what is happening.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will not give way, as I want to proceed on this issue. A lot of good points came up during the debate and I want to reply to them. [Interruption.] Members may think that that is humorous, but I will pursue those points, as that is the object of winding up.

The rapid response initiative is designed to be active prior to the announcement of closures and redundancies. It is also designed to try to deal with the distress and concerns that arise at that time. We have seen recently how the service can be of some assistance. Therefore, I appeal to the SNP to accept that we are being proactive, not reactive. We require a combination of prior and previous experience so that we can tackle those issues.

John Swinney raised the question about production or market focus—of course, it has to be both, because the value-added approach is the key. It must be present at all stages: research, production, marketing and customer care. That hits on the good point that Margo MacDonald made. I think that my definition of a manufacturing strategy would concur with her definition. There is a very thin dividing line between manufacturing and services.

For example, Motherwell Bridge is a company that is doing extraordinarily well, but it has support services that mirror and complement the manufacturing element. The two elements are linked—both are about prosperity in the workplace. IBM is another example. It sends brilliant products all over Europe and has a multilingual call centre, which employs 350 people, that services those products in Europe. Is that manufacturing or is it service? The real issue is that the distinctions are blurred. Margo MacDonald made a good point and, as far as we are concerned, that is the way to go.

We heard about the supply chain. I wish to raise an issue that is important for Kilmarnock. Cathy Jamieson mentioned it, I think. We visited a brilliant sandwich company in Ayrshire that makes 28,000 sandwiches, baguettes—it gets more complicated—and ciabattas every day. This is to do with supply chains—not nuclear science or even the knowledge economy—and the basic raw products that come into a very distinguished and impressive factory. Where does that company get its bread? Part of the supply comes from Paris and the other part comes from Cheshire. On supply chain economics, my appeal is for Scottish companies to think about what is happening.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "C708696", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Football Clubs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26875, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 301.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 301.0, "ID": 26875, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 305.0, "ContributionID": 708696, "EditedText": "That the Parliament notes the financial difficulties faced by some clubs in the Scottish Football Leagues and supports the clubs having a greater role in youth and community development.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament notes the financial difficulties faced by some clubs in the Scottish Football Leagues and supports the clubs having a greater role in youth and community development.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708685", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26874, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 285.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 285.0, "ID": 26874, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 287.0, "ContributionID": 708685, "EditedText": "There are two questions to be put as a result of today's business. The first is, that amendment S1M-171.2, in the name of Mr John Swinney, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "There are two questions to be put as a result of today's business. The first is, that amendment S1M-171.2, in the name of Mr John Swinney, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708694", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Football Clubs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26875, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 301.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 301.0, "ID": 26875, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 302.0, "ContributionID": 708694, "EditedText": "We move now to members' business. I ask those who are leaving the chamber to do so quickly and, more important, quietly. The final item of business today is the members' business debate on motion S1M-153, in the name of Donald Gorrie. This debate will be concluded after 30 minutes without any question being put. Those who wish to speak in the debate should press the request-to-speak button as soon as possible. Again, I ask members to leave as quietly as possible.", "EditedTextHTML": "We move now to members' business. I ask those who are leaving the chamber to do so quickly and, more important, quietly.

The final item of business today is the members' business debate on motion S1M-153, in the name of Donald Gorrie. This debate will be concluded after 30 minutes without any question being put. Those who wish to speak in the debate should press the request-to-speak button as soon as possible. Again, I ask members to leave as quietly as possible.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "C708695", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Football Clubs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26875, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 301.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 301.0, "ID": 26875, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 304.0, "ContributionID": 708695, "EditedText": "Motion debated,", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion debated,

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708689", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26874, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 285.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 285.0, "ID": 26874, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 294.0, "ContributionID": 708689, "EditedText": "The result is as follows: For 29, Against 76, Abstentions 1.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result is as follows: For 29, Against 76, Abstentions 1.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1973E119P326C708697", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Football Clubs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26875, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 301.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 301.0, "ID": 26875, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gorrie, Donald", "ID": 1973, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Donald Gorrie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Donald Gorrie (Central Scotland) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 307.0, "ContributionID": 708697, "EditedText": "I will start with three concessions: first, many members know a lot more about football than I do; secondly, the Executive has made a start in one or two of the areas that we will discuss; thirdly, Clydebank did better against Hamilton Academical than we did. However, I hope that when people have got their one-liners out of their systems, we can have a profitable debate on the subject. I was a prime sufferer from the excellent Hamilton Accies campaign in the Hamilton South by-election. Laughter. I am in a good position, therefore, to pay tribute to its excellent campaign. It hit on and harnessed the widespread rage in the community about the fact that its club had been stolen. It is a serious criticism of our society that, if a fan nicked £1,000 from the gate money, he would go to jail, whereas the owners of Hamilton Academical sold the ground for several million pounds and promised to build a new stadium, but many years later there still is no stadium and they are sitting on their ill-gotten millions. That is all legal, apparently, so we need to examine the system. Hamilton provides only the most striking example of the problems that face many football clubs in Scotland. Scottish football in general is in a bad way. Our national team has problems against the Faeroes and Estonia. When Rangers play Celtic, there are rarely as many as five native Scottish players on the park at any time. Apart from Rangers and Celtic, almost every Scottish professional football club is having or has recently had major problems over finance or its ground. Clubs have suffered from many recent changes. The Bosman ruling has prevented them from selling good players every now and then to keep their finances going. The allocation of money from television rights is now less favourable to small clubs than it once was. Clubs are under pressure to modernise their grounds, but the money available in Scotland from the Football Trust has dwindled from £40 million to £6 million because of the impact of the lottery on the pools. Money from the lottery has also been cut. Clubs cannot survive without large private investors. Some are excellent, public-spirited people who do a great job for the community, but others are just asset strippers. What are we to do? The Executive and the Parliament cannot interfere directly in the running of legitimate commercial organisations, but we can help and influence them and their local communities. Although my motion concentrates on youth, I hope that later speakers will address other issues. I want to make three specific suggestions. First, those clubs that have a good youth development programme, for both players and spectators, should be rewarded with a discount on their rates. Already in many parts of the country other sports clubs that do not have bars receive a discount. Football clubs with a good youth programme could be treated in the same way. Secondly, the Executive has started to encourage sport in schools. The football clubs could be tied in much more closely with that programme. Professionals could help to coach the kids and assist coaches in developing teams at all ages. The clubs could play an important part in that existing scheme and benefit from it. Thirdly, we have to be bolder. Setting aside 0.2 per cent of the health, police and social work budgets would produce a fund of £10 million. If that money were spent on youth work and sport, it could make a huge difference. We would have a much healthier community, fewer young people would get into trouble with the police and young people would be able to enjoy themselves constructively. We ought to develop the preventive medicine argument—more investment in sport and youth will benefit the country and pay for itself. We can develop a fine network of football teams, of all ages and both sexes, sustained by links with local professional teams. That could be copied in other sports. This Parliament has a great opportunity to air ideas and urge the Executive to take bolder steps. Let us have a constructive debate on how to start a revival in Scottish football.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will start with three concessions: first, many members know a lot more about football than I do; secondly, the Executive has made a start in one or two of the areas that we will discuss; thirdly, Clydebank did better against Hamilton Academical than we did. However, I hope that when people have got their one-liners out of their systems, we can have a profitable debate on the subject.

I was a prime sufferer from the excellent Hamilton Accies campaign in the Hamilton South by-election. [Laughter.] I am in a good position, therefore, to pay tribute to its excellent campaign. It hit on and harnessed the widespread rage in the community about the fact that its club had been stolen. It is a serious criticism of our society that, if a fan nicked £1,000 from the gate money, he would go to jail, whereas the owners of Hamilton Academical sold the ground for several million pounds and promised to build a new stadium, but many years later there still is no stadium and they are sitting on their ill-gotten millions. That is all legal, apparently, so we need to examine the system.

Hamilton provides only the most striking example of the problems that face many football clubs in Scotland. Scottish football in general is in a bad way. Our national team has problems against the Faeroes and Estonia. When Rangers play Celtic, there are rarely as many as five native Scottish players on the park at any time.

Apart from Rangers and Celtic, almost every Scottish professional football club is having or has recently had major problems over finance or its ground. Clubs have suffered from many recent changes. The Bosman ruling has prevented them from selling good players every now and then to keep their finances going. The allocation of money from television rights is now less favourable to small clubs than it once was. Clubs are under pressure to modernise their grounds, but the money available in Scotland from the Football Trust has dwindled from £40 million to £6 million because of the impact of the lottery on the pools. Money from the lottery has also been cut. Clubs cannot survive without large private investors. Some are excellent, public-spirited people who do a great job for the community, but others are just asset strippers.

What are we to do? The Executive and the Parliament cannot interfere directly in the running of legitimate commercial organisations, but we can help and influence them and their local communities. Although my motion concentrates on youth, I hope that later speakers will address other issues.

I want to make three specific suggestions. First, those clubs that have a good youth development programme, for both players and spectators, should be rewarded with a discount on their rates. Already in many parts of the country other sports clubs that do not have bars receive a discount. Football clubs with a good youth programme could be treated in the same way.

Secondly, the Executive has started to encourage sport in schools. The football clubs could be tied in much more closely with that programme. Professionals could help to coach the kids and assist coaches in developing teams at all ages. The clubs could play an important part in that existing scheme and benefit from it.

Thirdly, we have to be bolder. Setting aside 0.2 per cent of the health, police and social work budgets would produce a fund of £10 million. If that money were spent on youth work and sport, it could make a huge difference. We would have a much healthier community, fewer young people would get into trouble with the police and young people would be able to enjoy themselves constructively. We ought to develop the preventive medicine argument—more investment in sport and youth will benefit the country and pay for itself.

We can develop a fine network of football teams, of all ages and both sexes, sustained by links with local professional teams. That could be copied in other sports. This Parliament has a great opportunity to air ideas and urge the Executive to take bolder steps. Let us have a constructive debate on how to start a revival in Scottish football.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C708698", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Football Clubs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26875, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 301.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 301.0, "ID": 26875, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ms Patricia Ferguson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 309.0, "ContributionID": 708698, "EditedText": "Unusually for a debate at this time, a large number of members wish to take part. It may not be possible for all to participate, but if speakers will be aware that many members wish to make contributions, that will help. Looking round, I am minded to ask the Procedures Committee to come up with a policy on the wearing of colours in the chamber. However, that may just be my being sad—I am a Partick Thistle supporter.", "EditedTextHTML": "Unusually for a debate at this time, a large number of members wish to take part. It may not be possible for all to participate, but if

speakers will be aware that many members wish to make contributions, that will help.

Looking round, I am minded to ask the Procedures Committee to come up with a policy on the wearing of colours in the chamber. However, that may just be my being sad—I am a Partick Thistle supporter.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1752E75P296C708700", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Football Clubs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26875, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 301.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 301.0, "ID": 26875, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jamieson, Cathy", "ID": 1752, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Cathy Jamieson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Cathy Jamieson (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 315.0, "ContributionID": 708700, "EditedText": "I start by declaring an interest. I am in the slightly odd position of being a long-time Kilmarnock supporter who now represents part of Ayr and who supports Ayr United's plans to build a new stadium. I wanted to get that in before Phil Gallie does. I do not want to talk about Kilmarnock and whether the club can repeat its famous escape-tovictory routine tomorrow night when it takes on Kaiserslautern. I am thinking back to many years ago when a famous Killie team came back from being 3-0 down against Eintracht Frankfurt to win 5-4. I want to focus on one aspect of the debate—the financial position of many of the smaller Scottish football clubs. I also want to draw members' attention to a Co-operative party pamphlet, which I have passed to the minister, entitled, \"New mutualism—Golden Goal\". The publication examines in detail ways in which football clubs can genuinely be owned by their supporters and ways in which supporters can have a greater influence on the running of clubs. The ideas may be of interest not only to Hamilton Accies supporters, but to other clubs. I want to spend a couple of minutes on the example of Barcelona, although I recognise that it is not often that Barça and Hamilton are talked about in the same context. FC Barcelona is, in effect, a mutual. It is owned and run by its members, who currently number in excess of 100,000. According to the club's statutes, it exists for the pursuit of sporting excellence. It can be dissolved only on the approval of the general assembly of its members. If that happened, the unmovable assets—the ground and so on—would be transferred to the local council, on whose ground the premises are located, and the movable assets would be donated to the Catalan Government after payment of the club's debts. That is an interesting thought. The club is run by a body that is elected for a five-year term. Annual reports must be submitted to the general assembly of members of supporters, which—interestingly—also fixes entrance and subscription fees and must approve various other matters, such as television and media arrangements. An alternative outlined in the pamphlet is the concept of supporters trusts. Northampton Town has used the model successfully in the English league—not something that I often cite. The advantage is that dividends are not paid out to individual shareholders, but reinvested in the club. The club has taken an active part in the campaign to kick racism out of football and was the first league football club to adopt an equal opportunities policy. The club operates a football- in-the community scheme, which has taken the lead in organising league football at an English national level for players with learning disabilities. I am not suggesting that all clubs in Scotland will want to adopt completely the ideas contained in the pamphlet, but there are a number of lessons that are worth learning. If our goal is to develop football as an important part of our social, cultural and sporting life and to develop the links between clubs and communities, we must remember that the supporters—the people who pay week in, week out to see the clubs play—are the clubs' lifeblood and should have a greater say in their running. Community involvement in football has the potential to play a part in our work to combat social exclusion. Community ownership might be a way of ensuring community involvement. I look forward to further debate on this matter and to a win for Kilmarnock tomorrow.", "EditedTextHTML": "I start by declaring an interest. I am in the slightly odd position of being a long-time Kilmarnock supporter who now represents part of Ayr and who supports Ayr United's plans to build a new stadium. I wanted to get that in before Phil Gallie does.

I do not want to talk about Kilmarnock and whether the club can repeat its famous escape-to

victory routine tomorrow night when it takes on Kaiserslautern. I am thinking back to many years ago when a famous Killie team came back from being 3-0 down against Eintracht Frankfurt to win 5-4.

I want to focus on one aspect of the debate—the financial position of many of the smaller Scottish football clubs. I also want to draw members' attention to a Co-operative party pamphlet, which I have passed to the minister, entitled, \"New mutualism—Golden Goal\". The publication examines in detail ways in which football clubs can genuinely be owned by their supporters and ways in which supporters can have a greater influence on the running of clubs. The ideas may be of interest not only to Hamilton Accies supporters, but to other clubs.

I want to spend a couple of minutes on the example of Barcelona, although I recognise that it is not often that Barça and Hamilton are talked about in the same context. FC Barcelona is, in effect, a mutual. It is owned and run by its members, who currently number in excess of 100,000. According to the club's statutes, it exists for the pursuit of sporting excellence. It can be dissolved only on the approval of the general assembly of its members. If that happened, the unmovable assets—the ground and so on—would be transferred to the local council, on whose ground the premises are located, and the movable assets would be donated to the Catalan Government after payment of the club's debts. That is an interesting thought.

The club is run by a body that is elected for a five-year term. Annual reports must be submitted to the general assembly of members of supporters, which—interestingly—also fixes entrance and subscription fees and must approve various other matters, such as television and media arrangements.

An alternative outlined in the pamphlet is the concept of supporters trusts. Northampton Town has used the model successfully in the English league—not something that I often cite. The advantage is that dividends are not paid out to individual shareholders, but reinvested in the club. The club has taken an active part in the campaign to kick racism out of football and was the first league football club to adopt an equal opportunities policy. The club operates a football- in-the community scheme, which has taken the lead in organising league football at an English national level for players with learning disabilities.

I am not suggesting that all clubs in Scotland will want to adopt completely the ideas contained in the pamphlet, but there are a number of lessons that are worth learning. If our goal is to develop football as an important part of our social, cultural and sporting life and to develop the links between

clubs and communities, we must remember that the supporters—the people who pay week in, week out to see the clubs play—are the clubs' lifeblood and should have a greater say in their running.

Community involvement in football has the potential to play a part in our work to combat social exclusion. Community ownership might be a way of ensuring community involvement. I look forward to further debate on this matter and to a win for Kilmarnock tomorrow.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C708713", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Football Clubs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26875, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 301.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 301.0, "ID": 26875, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 344.0, "ContributionID": 708713, "EditedText": "No, the minister is now winding up.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, the minister is now winding up.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1862E99P179C708714", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Football Clubs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26875, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 301.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 301.0, "ID": 26875, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Brankin, Rhona", "ID": 1862, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Midlothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Culture and Sport", "SpeakerName": "Rhona Brankin", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Rhona Brankin: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 346.0, "ContributionID": 708714, "EditedText": "Thank you. I am afraid that I do not have a scarf that represents all the junior football teams in Midlothian. I am delighted to have been given the opportunity to wind up a rather short but useful debate on football. It has been a good kick-off on the subject. I hope that we can debate the matter further because that is important in terms of developing football—which we concentrated on today—and sport in general, as a means of rebuilding communities. I was delighted to be able to open some marvellous new synthetic pitches in Easterhouse recently. Football—and sport in general—are seen as playing an important part in urban regeneration. I am well aware of the financial difficulties that a number of football clubs in Scotland face. Some of the difficulties are due in part to the requirements to carry out the essential safety works recommended by Lord Justice Taylor following the Hillsborough stadium disaster. Since 1990, the Football Trust has provided more than £168 million of grant aid for Taylor-related works throughout the UK, £39 million of which has been allocated to Scotland. If we take other related programmes into account, the total grant aid made available by the Football Trust for professional football clubs in Scotland is approximately £59 million.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you. I am afraid that I do not have a scarf that represents all the junior football teams in Midlothian.

I am delighted to have been given the opportunity to wind up a rather short but useful debate on football. It has been a good kick-off on the subject. I hope that we can debate the matter further because that is important in terms of developing football—which we concentrated on

today—and sport in general, as a means of rebuilding communities. I was delighted to be able to open some marvellous new synthetic pitches in Easterhouse recently. Football—and sport in general—are seen as playing an important part in urban regeneration.

I am well aware of the financial difficulties that a number of football clubs in Scotland face. Some of the difficulties are due in part to the requirements to carry out the essential safety works recommended by Lord Justice Taylor following the Hillsborough stadium disaster. Since 1990, the Football Trust has provided more than £168 million of grant aid for Taylor-related works throughout the UK, £39 million of which has been allocated to Scotland. If we take other related programmes into account, the total grant aid made available by the Football Trust for professional football clubs in Scotland is approximately £59 million.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C708704", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Football Clubs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26875, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 301.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 301.0, "ID": 26875, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bruce Crawford: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 325.0, "ContributionID": 708704, "EditedText": "Very briefly.", "EditedTextHTML": "Very briefly.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1862E99P179C708711", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Football Clubs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26875, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 301.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 301.0, "ID": 26875, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Brankin, Rhona", "ID": 1862, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Midlothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Culture and Sport", "SpeakerName": "Rhona Brankin", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Culture and Sport (Rhona Brankin): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 340.0, "ContributionID": 708711, "EditedText": "Shall I start while I am waiting?", "EditedTextHTML": "Shall I start while I am waiting?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2118E157P454C708712", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Football Clubs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26875, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 301.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 301.0, "ID": 26875, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Quinan, Mr Lloyd", "ID": 2118, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lloyd Quinan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Lloyd Quinan (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 342.0, "ContributionID": 708712, "EditedText": "On a point of order, are you extending the debate?", "EditedTextHTML": "

On a point of order, are you extending the debate?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C708591", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 78.0, "ContributionID": 708591, "EditedText": "If Mr Gallie was following the debate properly, he would know that I argue for lower corporate taxation, to maximise the opportunity for businesses to see Scotland as an attractive location, in which they can operate constructively and positively. That will generate added value for the Scottish economy much more than the arguments that Mr Gallie has put forward.", "EditedTextHTML": "If Mr Gallie was following the debate properly, he would know that I argue for lower corporate taxation, to maximise the opportunity for businesses to see Scotland as an attractive location, in which they can operate constructively and positively. That will generate added value for the Scottish economy much more than the arguments that Mr Gallie has put forward.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:28:33.8639665+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C708593", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 82.0, "ContributionID": 708593, "EditedText": "The point that Mr Sheridan made amply demonstrates why Mr Gallie and his party are still trying to find the road to recovery from all that they did in the years 1979 to 1997. I must watch the time and move on, to keep on side with the Presiding Officer. The second point that I will make is in relation to the intervention that I made to the minister. We must examine carefully the support that is given to exporting within the Scottish economy and within the Scottish Enterprise network. Exporting has always struck me as the poor relation of the economic development process within Scotland. It is never adequately resourced. I am glad that the Government is giving Scottish Trade International targets for the increase in the number of exports. I do not think that those targets are nearly ambitious enough. If they are going to be more ambitious, we must give that organisation the resources to deliver on our ambitions in exporting. The third point that I want to cover is a problem that is at the heart of the Government's focus on this issue. I would like to hear the minister's response to this in the summing-up. Is the Government's strategy product focused or market focused? In Scotland we used to be leaders in the industrial revolution, but now we are far behind. I suspect that the minister is approaching the manufacturing strategy from that production focus, rather than a market focus. Surely we will be better able to identify the most dynamic new technologies by supporting the drive in Scotland of a number of market-focused companies delivering skilled, specialist research, engineering and technologies based on market needs. In recent years, we have been adept at invention, but not necessarily innovation and getting products to the marketplace as quickly as we can. Research evidence shows that if the gap between the concept and the marketplace can be reduced—to a degree to which we have failed to reduce it in the Scottish economy to date—we might be able to tap into some of the increases in value in the way that other marketplaces have. I would like the minister to reflect on the points that he raised about his American visit and to tell us what new ideas on closing that gap will be added to the Government strategy. My fourth point—here the minister has revealed a little more of what is in his thinking—relates to what the Government does to support the transformation of the manufacturing sector from the current circumstances that we endure to more stable circumstances in future. In particular, I refer to the number of closure announcements that we have had over the summer—Continental Tyres and Levi Strauss, to name but two. I welcomed the minister's announcement about the rapid response unit when he first made it, and I welcome it again now. It is, however, terribly reactive. It betrays a sense that we only get in there when there is a crisis. It is almost a signal to our enterprise networks that they do not need to get in there until such time as there is a crisis. That reflects the attitude that prevails in many companies in Scotland—they do not believe that the enterprise networks are on their side.", "EditedTextHTML": "The point that Mr Sheridan made amply demonstrates why Mr Gallie and his party are still trying to find the road to recovery from all that they did in the years 1979 to 1997. I must watch the time and move on, to keep on side with the Presiding Officer.

The second point that I will make is in relation to the intervention that I made to the minister. We must examine carefully the support that is given to exporting within the Scottish economy and within the Scottish Enterprise network. Exporting has always struck me as the poor relation of the economic development process within Scotland. It is never adequately resourced. I am glad that the Government is giving Scottish Trade International targets for the increase in the number of exports. I do not think that those targets are nearly ambitious enough. If they are going to be more ambitious, we must give that organisation the resources to deliver on our ambitions in exporting.

The third point that I want to cover is a problem that is at the heart of the Government's focus on this issue. I would like to hear the minister's response to this in the summing-up. Is the Government's strategy product focused or market focused? In Scotland we used to be leaders in the industrial revolution, but now we are far behind. I suspect that the minister is approaching the manufacturing strategy from that production focus, rather than a market focus. Surely we will be better able to identify the most dynamic new technologies by supporting the drive in Scotland of a number of market-focused companies delivering skilled, specialist research, engineering and technologies based on market needs. In recent years, we have been adept at invention, but not necessarily innovation and getting products to the marketplace as quickly as we can.

Research evidence shows that if the gap between the concept and the marketplace can be reduced—to a degree to which we have failed to reduce it in the Scottish economy to date—we might be able to tap into some of the increases in value in the way that other marketplaces have. I would like the minister to reflect on the points that he raised about his American visit and to tell us what new ideas on closing that gap will be added to the Government strategy.

My fourth point—here the minister has revealed a little more of what is in his thinking—relates to what the Government does to support the transformation of the manufacturing sector from the current circumstances that we endure to more stable circumstances in future. In particular, I refer to the number of closure announcements that we have had over the summer—Continental Tyres and Levi Strauss, to name but two.

I welcomed the minister's announcement about the rapid response unit when he first made it, and I welcome it again now. It is, however, terribly reactive. It betrays a sense that we only get in there when there is a crisis. It is almost a signal to our enterprise networks that they do not need to get in there until such time as there is a crisis. That reflects the attitude that prevails in many companies in Scotland—they do not believe that the enterprise networks are on their side.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:28:33.8639665+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C708597", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 90.0, "ContributionID": 708597, "EditedText": "Not that I am accusing anyone of being in that situation. What matters is the result of that strategy, how successful it is and what it has delivered. What performance measures are in place to allow us to judge whether the Scottish economy has changed one iota for the better or the worse as a result of the strategy that the Government puts in place? Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con)rose—", "EditedTextHTML": "Not that I am accusing anyone of being in that situation. What matters is the result of that strategy, how successful it is and what it has delivered. What performance measures are in place to allow us to judge whether the Scottish economy has changed one iota for the better or the worse as a result of the strategy that the Government puts in place?

Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con)

rose—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:28:33.8639665+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C708605", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 107.0, "ContributionID": 708605, "EditedText": "Please stay on. Laughter.", "EditedTextHTML": "Please stay on. [Laughter.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:28:33.8639665+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C708613", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 123.0, "ContributionID": 708613, "EditedText": "When the minister responded toPhil Gallie's intervention on the issue of the climate change levy, he indicated that representations were being made to the Treasury about the seriousness of the impact of that levy on the Scottish economy. Does Annabel Goldie think that it would be appropriate for the minister to make representations to the Treasury and to the monetary policy committee about the impact of high interest rates and the high value of sterling on the Scottish economy?", "EditedTextHTML": "When the minister responded to

Phil Gallie's intervention on the issue of the climate change levy, he indicated that representations were being made to the Treasury about the seriousness of the impact of that levy on the Scottish economy. Does Annabel Goldie think that it would be appropriate for the minister to make representations to the Treasury and to the monetary policy committee about the impact of high interest rates and the high value of sterling on the Scottish economy?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:28:33.8639665+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C708578", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 51.0, "ContributionID": 708578, "EditedText": "The minister mentioned the e-commerce word; I would like to mention another e-word—exporting. I fully support what the minister said on e-commerce, and I understand the threats that it poses and the opportunities that it offers to the Scottish economy. However, does he believe that the support currently available to Scottish Trade International will enable that organisation to deliver the exporting target of £23 billion that has been set for it? Is he content with the profile of exports in the Scottish economy and with the amount of public sector support for them, compared with the drive to attract inward investment? Does he see opportunities to strengthen the indigenous business base in the Scottish economy by strengthening exports—", "EditedTextHTML": "The minister mentioned the e-commerce word; I would like to mention another e-word—exporting. I fully support what the minister said on e-commerce, and I understand the threats that it poses and the opportunities that it offers to the Scottish economy. However, does he believe that the support currently available to Scottish Trade International will enable that organisation to deliver the exporting target of £23 billion that has been set for it? Is he content with the profile of exports in the Scottish economy and with the amount of public sector support for them, compared with the drive to attract inward investment? Does he see opportunities to strengthen the indigenous business base in the Scottish economy by strengthening exports—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:27:39.0629519+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C708672", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 259.0, "ContributionID": 708672, "EditedText": "I listened carefully to what the minister has said. If we are in the process of this Parliament's evolution—I warmly endorse that objective—why can we not have a little bit of spirit across the chamber: that when we put an idea forward, the Executive might just say, \"We accept your amendment\"? That would be the simplest way of allowing that evolution of the Parliament to take place.", "EditedTextHTML": "I listened carefully to what the minister has said. If we are in the process of this Parliament's evolution—I warmly endorse that objective—why can we not have a little bit of spirit across the chamber: that when we put an idea forward, the Executive might just say, \"We accept your amendment\"? That would be the simplest way of allowing that evolution of the Parliament to take place.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:30:33.6801878+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C708674", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 263.0, "ContributionID": 708674, "EditedText": "Can the minister not understand the difficulty that I have? I have listened to him again, but the Conservative group tell me that they want to chuck out our amendment, because they do not think it is appropriate for the Scottish economy. I think that it is essential that the Scottish Parliament has the ability to assess effectively the progress on the Scottish economy and to raise the standard and analysis of debate in Scotland: it is vital that the minister takes that on board.", "EditedTextHTML": "Can the minister not understand the difficulty that I have? I have listened to him again, but the Conservative group tell me that they want to chuck out our amendment, because they do not think it is appropriate for the Scottish economy. I think that it is essential that the Scottish Parliament has the ability to assess effectively the progress on the Scottish economy and to raise the standard and analysis of debate in Scotland: it is vital that the minister takes that on board.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:30:33.6801878+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C708555", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Wednesday 29 September 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26872, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26872, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Alex Salmond (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 3.0, "ContributionID": 708555, "EditedText": "On a point of order, Presiding Officer. Will you ask the Executive to make a statement on the lobbygate affair? I read in the press that the First Minister would like to see a full inquiry into the matter, that sources close to Mr McConnell would like the Standards Committee to consider the matter and that the First Minister and the Secretary of State for Scotland came to blows on the issue, before making up over a cup of tea. The Parliament is entitled to hear the Executive's view in a statement outwith the realms of the press. In summary, the issue touches on claims made about the Labour party and Labour ministers; it will touch the Parliament unless we hear how the Parliament will deal with the matter. We are entitled to be given that information in a statement from the Executive.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order, Presiding Officer. Will you ask the Executive to make a statement on the lobbygate affair? I read in the press that the First Minister would like to see a full inquiry into the matter, that sources close to Mr McConnell would like the Standards Committee to consider the matter and that the First Minister and the Secretary of State for Scotland came to blows on the issue, before making up over a cup of tea. The Parliament is entitled to hear the Executive's view in a statement outwith the realms of the press.

In summary, the issue touches on claims made about the Labour party and Labour ministers; it will touch the Parliament unless we hear how the Parliament will deal with the matter. We are entitled to be given that information in a statement from the Executive.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4983548+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708560", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Wednesday 29 September 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26872, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26872, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 13.0, "ContributionID": 708560, "EditedText": "It is important that the Standards Committee considers those matters. I do not think that I should give an off-the-cuff ruling from the chair. I notice that the committee chose its words carefully. It will meet in private \"for careful consideration of the matters that have been placed before us, with a view to deciding on the terms of an investigation.\" You are asking me to pre-empt the terms of the investigation.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is important that the Standards Committee considers those matters. I do not think that I should give an off-the-cuff ruling from the chair. I notice that the committee chose its words carefully. It will meet in private

\"for careful consideration of the matters that have been placed before us, with a view to deciding on the terms of an investigation.\"

You are asking me to pre-empt the terms of the investigation.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4983548+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C708561", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Wednesday 29 September 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26872, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26872, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 15.0, "ContributionID": 708561, "EditedText": "Presiding Officer, I am asking you to clarify the committee's terms of reference, so that it knows the basis on which to proceed.", "EditedTextHTML": "Presiding Officer, I am asking you to clarify the committee's terms of reference, so that it knows the basis on which to proceed.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4983548+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708562", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Wednesday 29 September 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26872, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26872, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 17.0, "ContributionID": 708562, "EditedText": "Those terms of reference are laid down in the standing orders; I will not elaborate on that at the moment.", "EditedTextHTML": "Those terms of reference are laid down in the standing orders; I will not elaborate on that at the moment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4983548+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C708563", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Wednesday 29 September 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26872, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26872, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 19.0, "ContributionID": 708563, "EditedText": "On a point of order, Presiding Officer. We should also clarify whether the Parliament would support the idea of private hearings as opposed to public evidence sessions.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order, Presiding Officer. We should also clarify whether the Parliament would support the idea of private hearings as opposed to public evidence sessions.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4983548+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708564", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Wednesday 29 September 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26872, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26872, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 21.0, "ContributionID": 708564, "EditedText": "Let me make it clear. The committee will consider the matter in private; it has not said that it will conduct a private hearing.", "EditedTextHTML": "Let me make it clear. The committee will consider the matter in private; it has not said that it will conduct a private hearing.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4983548+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708565", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 24.0, "ContributionID": 708565, "EditedText": "The main business of the afternoon is a debate on motion S1M-171, in the name of Henry McLeish, on a manufacturing and industrial strategy for Scotland. There is also an amendment to the motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "The main business of the afternoon is a debate on motion S1M-171, in the name of Henry McLeish, on a manufacturing and industrial strategy for Scotland. There is also an amendment to the motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4983548+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C708569", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 33.0, "ContributionID": 708569, "EditedText": "I am immensely reassured that Phil Gallie stays to listen to my words.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am immensely reassured that Phil Gallie stays to listen to my words.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C708580", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 55.0, "ContributionID": 708580, "EditedText": "But of high quality, as I am sure Mr Swinney would say. I embrace a great deal of what is being said. Despite some trading difficulties, there has been a real increase in current manufacturing exports of 8.3 per cent in the year to the first quarter of 1999. However, we could be doing more, and that is one of the areas that I want to look at. A total of £18.6 billion-worth of manufactured goods is exported every year—an enormous sum—but that figure could still be improved on. On my visit to America, I was struck by the fact that people in silicon valley see Scotland as the electronic gateway to Europe. That offers us tremendous potential to increase our exports, a fact that the committee will embrace and that the Executive will take seriously. Scottish Enterprise's cluster approach to economic development seeks to foster long-term developments in particular growth sectors. Pilots have been established in oil and gas, food, semiconductors and biotechnology. The aim is to allow companies to form highly beneficial relationships with other businesses, suppliers and the wider community, especially with research and development establishments. That, in a nutshell, is the university/industry community. It is happening elsewhere, but it has not yet developed in this country to the extent that it should. Our main financial support to industry—regional selective assistance—has mainly benefited manufacturers. Over the past three years, the manufacturing sector has attracted 85 per cent of funding offers. That equates to Government commitment to industry of around £350 million, with planned investment of around £3.8 billion, which is creating or safeguarding more than 40,000 jobs. A wide range of companies is being supported, from small engineering firms to leading-edge technology companies. Andrew Wilson (Central Scotland) (SNP)rose—", "EditedTextHTML": "But of high quality, as I am sure Mr Swinney would say.

I embrace a great deal of what is being said. Despite some trading difficulties, there has been a real increase in current manufacturing exports of

8.3 per cent in the year to the first quarter of 1999. However, we could be doing more, and that is one of the areas that I want to look at. A total of £18.6 billion-worth of manufactured goods is exported every year—an enormous sum—but that figure could still be improved on. On my visit to America, I was struck by the fact that people in silicon valley see Scotland as the electronic gateway to Europe. That offers us tremendous potential to increase our exports, a fact that the committee will embrace and that the Executive will take seriously.

Scottish Enterprise's cluster approach to economic development seeks to foster long-term developments in particular growth sectors. Pilots have been established in oil and gas, food, semiconductors and biotechnology. The aim is to allow companies to form highly beneficial relationships with other businesses, suppliers and the wider community, especially with research and development establishments. That, in a nutshell, is the university/industry community. It is happening elsewhere, but it has not yet developed in this country to the extent that it should.

Our main financial support to industry—regional selective assistance—has mainly benefited manufacturers. Over the past three years, the manufacturing sector has attracted 85 per cent of funding offers. That equates to Government commitment to industry of around £350 million, with planned investment of around £3.8 billion, which is creating or safeguarding more than 40,000 jobs. A wide range of companies is being supported, from small engineering firms to leading-edge technology companies.

Andrew Wilson (Central Scotland) (SNP)

rose—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708581", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 57.0, "ContributionID": 708581, "EditedText": "The minister is already over his time, Mr Wilson, so let us make this the last intervention.", "EditedTextHTML": "The minister is already over his time, Mr Wilson, so let us make this the last intervention.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C708582", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 59.0, "ContributionID": 708582, "EditedText": "Given the minister's aims— with which I agree—to improve the knowledge base and to promote value-added growth in the economy, will he agree to alter the guidelines for RSA, which are not focused on value-added growth or on the knowledge base?", "EditedTextHTML": "Given the minister's aims— with which I agree—to improve the knowledge base and to promote value-added growth in the economy, will he agree to alter the guidelines for RSA, which are not focused on value-added growth or on the knowledge base?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C708594", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Richard Simpson (Ochil) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 84.0, "ContributionID": 708594, "EditedText": "Does Mr Swinney agree that one of the problems is that companies do not discuss matters with the enterprise groups, which limits their ability to act in an anticipatory way? In my constituency, Coats Viyella closed three plants over five months and did not warn me, the local council or Forth Valley Enterprise about those closures at all. They were simply announced. That behaviour, in this day and age, is unacceptable. No matter what planning there is, proactive response from the enterprise groups is very difficult.", "EditedTextHTML": "Does Mr Swinney agree that one of the problems is that companies do not discuss matters with the enterprise groups, which limits their ability to act in an anticipatory way? In my constituency, Coats Viyella closed three plants over five months and did not warn me, the local council or Forth Valley Enterprise about those closures at all. They were simply announced. That behaviour, in this day and age, is unacceptable. No matter what planning there is, proactive response from the enterprise groups is very difficult.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C708601", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 99.0, "ContributionID": 708601, "EditedText": "Will Miss Goldie give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Miss Goldie give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C708611", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Keith Raffan (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 119.0, "ContributionID": 708611, "EditedText": "I am grateful to Miss Goldie for giving way. She really cannot get away with that, after the Conservative party's total lack of investment in public transport over the past 18 years. That is one of the main reasons why I left the party—it never put anything into public transport.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful to Miss Goldie for giving way. She really cannot get away with that, after the Conservative party's total lack of investment in public transport over the past 18 years. That is one of the main reasons why I left the party—it never put anything into public transport.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C708606", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Goldie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 109.0, "ContributionID": 708606, "EditedText": "I observe that, in the creation of the circumstances that are congenial to a vibrant manufacturing and industrial sector, certain conditions must apply. In fairness, the first signs were encouraging. Tony Blair said: \"I would say that the new and right direction for Europe is investing in people, skills and technology rather than regulation and constant burdens on employers. For the first time, this signals a different direction, saying that we want to reduce costs and reduce burdens.\" That was said by Mr Blair in 1997.The story since then has not been quite so encouraging. We have had a series of directives: the minimum wage, the working time directive, the works council directive, the part-time workers directive and the parental leave directive. No matter how meritorious those are regarded as being in certain quarters, and no matter what virtues they may have—and, no doubt, they do have them—it must be understood that, for manufacturing and industry, directives of that nature are not good news. In fairness, those regulations do not stem solely from Labour's decision to sign up to the European social chapter. The British Chambers of Commerce has observed that Labour has implemented more than 2,600 of its own regulations since May 1997, and that it has repealed only 20. I am not making a cheap point. All I am observing is that, if there is to be the vibrant sector that all of us here want, certain essential criteria must be in place and must apply. I could list a catalogue of other new burdens on business that have been introduced since May 1997, with which members would be familiar. The Centre for Policy Studies has warned that Labour's new burdens could lead to as many as 800,000 job losses UK-wide. Some may scoff at that; some may consider it excessive; some may seek to dismiss it. I think that there has to be an element of substance in it. What does our industrial garden make of all of that? Not a particularly positive interpretation. Only in February, the chair of the Federation of Small Businesses, Brian Prime, said: \"Small firms are now being over-regulated to such a degree that it is too costly and too risky to employ staff\". That concerns me. It strikes at the heart of being able to sustain the sort of sector that the Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning has in mind. Mr Prime's views are supported by the Confederation of British Industry, which has called for a moratorium on new business burdens, such is its concern over current policies. In short, I think that the gardener in this area has been found wanting. I would like to see the secateurs chopping through the red tape. Every bit of red tape which unfurls from a civil servant's desk sets off on a deadly mission which will end in the extermination, to a greater or lesser extent, of jobs. What else can cause wither and blight to our manufacturing base? Taxation, obviously. Mr Sweeney has already alluded to this. What did our horticultural supremo have to say about taxation? I quote Mr Blair again: \"I vow that the promises we make on tax, we will keep. This is my covenant with the British people. Judge me on it. The buck stops with me.\" He said that in 1996.That does not tie in with the words of today's motion; the reality is slightly different. Only in March, the director general of the British Chambers of Commerce, said: \"Business today is more heavily taxed, more heavily regulated than we were two years ago.\"", "EditedTextHTML": "I observe that, in the creation of the circumstances that are congenial to a vibrant manufacturing and industrial sector, certain conditions must apply. In fairness, the first signs were encouraging. Tony Blair said:

\"I would say that the new and right direction for Europe is investing in people, skills and technology rather than regulation and constant burdens on employers. For the first time, this signals a different direction, saying that we want to reduce costs and reduce burdens.\"

That was said by Mr Blair in 1997.

The story since then has not been quite so encouraging. We have had a series of directives: the minimum wage, the working time directive, the works council directive, the part-time workers directive and the parental leave directive. No matter how meritorious those are regarded as being in certain quarters, and no matter what virtues they may have—and, no doubt, they do have them—it must be understood that, for manufacturing and industry, directives of that nature are not good news.

In fairness, those regulations do not stem solely from Labour's decision to sign up to the European social chapter. The British Chambers of Commerce has observed that Labour has implemented more than 2,600 of its own regulations since May 1997, and that it has repealed only 20. I am not making a cheap point. All I am observing is that, if there is to be the vibrant sector that all of us here want, certain essential criteria must be in place and must apply. I could list a catalogue of other new burdens on business that have been introduced since May 1997, with which members would be familiar.

The Centre for Policy Studies has warned that Labour's new burdens could lead to as many as 800,000 job losses UK-wide. Some may scoff at that; some may consider it excessive; some may seek to dismiss it. I think that there has to be an element of substance in it.

What does our industrial garden make of all of that? Not a particularly positive interpretation. Only in February, the chair of the Federation of Small Businesses, Brian Prime, said:

\"Small firms are now being over-regulated to such a degree that it is too costly and too risky to employ staff\".

That concerns me. It strikes at the heart of being able to sustain the sort of sector that the Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning has in mind. Mr Prime's views are supported by the Confederation of British Industry, which has called for a moratorium on new business burdens, such is its concern over current policies.

In short, I think that the gardener in this area has been found wanting. I would like to see the secateurs chopping through the red tape. Every bit of red tape which unfurls from a civil servant's desk sets off on a deadly mission which will end in the extermination, to a greater or lesser extent, of jobs.

What else can cause wither and blight to our manufacturing base? Taxation, obviously. Mr

Sweeney has already alluded to this. What did our horticultural supremo have to say about taxation? I quote Mr Blair again:

\"I vow that the promises we make on tax, we will keep. This is my covenant with the British people. Judge me on it. The buck stops with me.\"

He said that in 1996.

That does not tie in with the words of today's motion; the reality is slightly different. Only in March, the director general of the British Chambers of Commerce, said:

\"Business today is more heavily taxed, more heavily regulated than we were two years ago.\"

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C708608", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Goldie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 113.0, "ContributionID": 708608, "EditedText": "I think that that is what we did. We introduced the uniform business rate. I remember why that happened. I was looking with horror at a rates notice that had come to my own business, following a revaluation. I took the view that control of business rates and taxation in that form had reached a vicious and oppressive extent. I am very glad that the Conservatives intervened to put the brakes on that. I wish that that lesson would transmit to the current Government and to the Executive. Taxation is not good news for business. Significant taxes have been applied; significant new taxes are threatened. Even in loose talk, when there is reference to the potential higher business rates, new parking taxes, tolls on trunk roads, tolls on urban roads, bed taxes or whatever forms new taxes may come in, they have to be seen in the context of what they are doing to existing business and what they threaten to do to potential investors. From the point of view of manufacturing and industry, a transport policy that seems, frankly, to have hit the buffers, is certainly uncongenial. I listened with interest to what the minister was saying, but the reality is that we have the highest fuel prices in Europe. Those of us who were invited to go to Arran learned that the highest of the high prices are there, where the poor souls are wondering what they have done to be so victimised.", "EditedTextHTML": "I think that that is what we did. We introduced the uniform business rate. I remember why that happened. I was looking with horror at a rates notice that had come to my own business, following a revaluation. I took the view that control of business rates and taxation in that form had reached a vicious and oppressive extent. I am very glad that the Conservatives intervened to put the brakes on that. I wish that that lesson would transmit to the current Government and to the Executive.

Taxation is not good news for business. Significant taxes have been applied; significant new taxes are threatened. Even in loose talk, when there is reference to the potential higher business rates, new parking taxes, tolls on trunk roads, tolls on urban roads, bed taxes or whatever forms new taxes may come in, they have to be seen in the context of what they are doing to existing business and what they threaten to do to potential investors.

From the point of view of manufacturing and industry, a transport policy that seems, frankly, to have hit the buffers, is certainly uncongenial. I listened with interest to what the minister was saying, but the reality is that we have the highest fuel prices in Europe. Those of us who were invited to go to Arran learned that the highest of the high prices are there, where the poor souls are wondering what they have done to be so victimised.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C708609", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 115.0, "ContributionID": 708609, "EditedText": "Does Miss Goldie regret the fact that it was her party's Government which introduced the fuel price escalator in the first place?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does Miss Goldie regret the fact that it was her party's Government which introduced the fuel price escalator in the first place?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C708615", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Goldie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 127.0, "ContributionID": 708615, "EditedText": "I have no hesitation in supporting Mr Swinney's view. If this Parliament has established anything, it has established its merit as an effective way of transmitting opinion to the Government at Westminster. He will have his own solution to that dilemma, which I would not share; none the less, I accept the spirit of his intervention. In relation to this motion, all in the garden is not rosy, because the gardener has been absent without leave. If we can cut the red tape and taxation, find a transport policy and make the pound the asset, rather than the enemy, of business, the Conservatives will not just support this motion in spirit, as they do, but will feel that it means a lot more than mere words.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have no hesitation in supporting Mr Swinney's view. If this Parliament has established anything, it has established its merit as an effective way of transmitting opinion to the Government at Westminster. He will have his own solution to that dilemma, which I would not share; none the less, I accept the spirit of his intervention.

In relation to this motion, all in the garden is not rosy, because the gardener has been absent without leave. If we can cut the red tape and taxation, find a transport policy and make the pound the asset, rather than the enemy, of business, the Conservatives will not just support this motion in spirit, as they do, but will feel that it means a lot more than mere words.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C708616", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 129.0, "ContributionID": 708616, "EditedText": "We now move to the open part of the debate. As the Presiding Officer indicated, it is very unlikely that all members who wish to speak will be able to do so. However, I intend to indicate to members when they have only one minute left of their four-minute allocation.", "EditedTextHTML": "We now move to the open part of the debate. As the Presiding Officer indicated, it is very unlikely that all members who wish to speak will be able to do so. However, I intend to indicate to members when they have only one minute left of their four-minute allocation.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1893E47P78C708619", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnstone, Alex", "ID": 1893, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Johnstone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Johnstone (North-East Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 137.0, "ContributionID": 708619, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "

Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C708620", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 139.0, "ContributionID": 708620, "EditedText": "I am about to finish. There are real benefits in joining—lower interest rates, greater stability and a more realistic exchange rate, which would all hugely benefit the agriculture, fishing and timber industries. It is high time that the Labour Government at Westminster came off the fence and took on the little-Englander, Eurosceptic attitudes that are so prevalent in the Tory party, whose objective seems to be to take us out of Europe, rather than to put us at its heart.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am about to finish. There are real benefits in joining—lower interest rates, greater stability and a more realistic exchange rate, which would all hugely benefit the agriculture, fishing and timber industries. It is high time that the Labour Government at Westminster came off the fence and took on the little-Englander, Eurosceptic attitudes that are so prevalent in the Tory party, whose objective seems to be to take us out of Europe, rather than to put us at its heart.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C708622", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 144.0, "ContributionID": 708622, "EditedText": "Does Andrew Wilson acknowledge the fact that, in the last four years of the Conservative Government, inflation and unemployment were lower—and falling—than at any time since records began in 1847? Does he also acknowledge that the time is not right for us to join the euro, because our economies are not in any way convergent? He expresses concern about interest rates in the south of England but, given that unemployment in the rest of the European Union is at an average of 11 per cent, how can joining the euro and having interest rates set according to the diverse needs of 15 economies benefit this country in any way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does Andrew Wilson acknowledge the fact that, in the last four years of the Conservative Government, inflation and unemployment were lower—and falling—than at any time since records began in 1847? Does he also acknowledge that the time is not right for us to join the euro, because our economies are not in any way convergent? He expresses concern about interest rates in the south of England but, given that unemployment in the rest of the European Union is at an average of 11 per cent, how can joining the euro and having interest rates set according to the diverse needs of 15 economies benefit this country in any way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2188E70P92C708635", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harper, Robin", "ID": 2188, "PartyName": "Scottish Green Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Green", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robin Harper", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robin Harper: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 174.0, "ContributionID": 708635, "EditedText": "I will not comment on that just yet. In its recent report, \"Electricity from Renewables\", the House of Lords European Communities Committee pointed out that, under the 1997 Kyoto protocol on climate change, the UK is committed to providing 5 per cent of its electricity supply from renewable resources by 2003 and 10 per cent of its electricity from renewable resources by 2010—I do not want to hear people including nuclear power in the category of renewable resources. It is probably already too late to meet the 2003 deadline, but the UK could still make the 2010 deadline if we make sufficient effort, although that will require a major engineering effort. As the best sites for wind, water and wave power installations in the UK are in Scotland, a large proportion of the installations will need to be sited in Scotland if the target is to be achieved in the most economical way. We have a great engineering tradition and it would be a national disgrace if virtually all the machinery for renewable energy installations had to be imported. The direct subsidising of manufacture would be against EU rules, but there is nothing to prevent the Government from awarding development contracts for renewable technology to suitable organisations. It is still not too late to do that. Another crucial point made by the House of Lords committee was that the present administrative arrangements for the development of renewable energy are incapable of achieving sufficient momentum. A major programme of public education will be required to forestall contentious objections and to provide local planning committees with the necessary background information. There is a window of opportunity for us to rejuvenate Scottish engineering and, at the same time, to help ameliorate the worst impacts of climate change. It is a win-win opportunity. We have a world expert on wave energy, whose work was spectacularly undervalued by the previous UK Government. The present Government has given him some support, and I would be happy to receive assurance that the Scottish Executive will adequately fund him and his department for the foreseeable future. I am sure that the chamber will concur in pressing the Executive to take prompt and effective action for a rapid expansion of the renewable energy industry in Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will not comment on that just yet.

In its recent report, \"Electricity from Renewables\", the House of Lords European Communities Committee pointed out that, under the 1997 Kyoto protocol on climate change, the UK is committed to providing 5 per cent of its electricity supply from renewable resources by 2003 and 10 per cent of its electricity from renewable resources by 2010—I do not want to hear people including nuclear power in the category of renewable resources. It is probably already too late to meet the 2003 deadline, but the UK could still make the 2010 deadline if we make sufficient effort, although that will require a major engineering effort.

As the best sites for wind, water and wave power installations in the UK are in Scotland, a large proportion of the installations will need to be sited in Scotland if the target is to be achieved in the most economical way. We have a great engineering tradition and it would be a national disgrace if virtually all the machinery for renewable energy installations had to be imported.

The direct subsidising of manufacture would be against EU rules, but there is nothing to prevent the Government from awarding development contracts for renewable technology to suitable organisations. It is still not too late to do that.

Another crucial point made by the House of Lords committee was that the present administrative arrangements for the development of renewable energy are incapable of achieving sufficient momentum. A major programme of public education will be required to forestall contentious objections and to provide local planning committees with the necessary background information.

There is a window of opportunity for us to rejuvenate Scottish engineering and, at the same time, to help ameliorate the worst impacts of climate change. It is a win-win opportunity. We have a world expert on wave energy, whose work was spectacularly undervalued by the previous UK Government. The present Government has given him some support, and I would be happy to receive assurance that the Scottish Executive will adequately fund him and his department for the foreseeable future.

I am sure that the chamber will concur in pressing the Executive to take prompt and effective action for a rapid expansion of the renewable energy industry in Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2090E83P266C708636", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAllion, Mr John", "ID": 2090, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dundee East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John McAllion", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr John McAllion (Dundee East) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 177.0, "ContributionID": 708636, "EditedText": "With one or two honourable exceptions, such as Murray Tosh, I have profoundly disagreed with the comments from the Tories. Members might think that there is nothing new in that. In particular I took exception to their complaint about there being too many regulations affecting business in Scotland and throughout the UK. The extra regulations on business in recent years, of which I am aware, are the national minimum wage, the working families tax credit, health and safety legislation and trade union rights in the workplace. I think that those regulations do not go far enough; I do not think that they do too much. I am sure that the majority of the Parliament takes the view that the regulations do not go far enough. A major plank of the Tories' argument in the debate is not supported by the majority of the Parliament or, I suspect, by the majority of the Scottish people—which explains why the Tories form a relatively small group in the Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "With one or two honourable exceptions, such as Murray Tosh, I have profoundly disagreed with the comments from the Tories. Members might think that there is nothing new in that. In particular I took exception to their complaint about there being too many regulations affecting business in Scotland and throughout the UK.

The extra regulations on business in recent years, of which I am aware, are the national minimum wage, the working families tax credit, health and safety legislation and trade union rights in the workplace. I think that those regulations do

not go far enough; I do not think that they do too much. I am sure that the majority of the Parliament takes the view that the regulations do not go far enough. A major plank of the Tories' argument in the debate is not supported by the majority of the Parliament or, I suspect, by the majority of the Scottish people—which explains why the Tories form a relatively small group in the Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2090E83P266C708642", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAllion, Mr John", "ID": 2090, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dundee East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John McAllion", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McAllion: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 189.0, "ContributionID": 708642, "EditedText": "It is because of the big picture that, on 8 September, the monetary policy committee set interest rates even higher than they had been, with all the implications that that had for the exchange rate and manufacturing industry. We have to remember that the big picture is made up of a lot of smaller pictures. Dundee has had many successes but, like other parts of the country, it has also had problems—the most recent case was that of Agritay, in which more than 100 jobs were lost in the city. The minister was right to point out that such problems occur partly because companies operate in the global marketplace and are competing with Turkish and east European manufacturers that pay workers a fraction of what workers in Scotland are paid and partly because of interest and exchange rate levels, which are hurting manufacturing badly. The Scottish Executive and the Westminster Government must take that on board.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is because of the big picture that, on 8 September, the monetary policy committee set interest rates even higher than they had been, with all the implications that that had for the exchange rate and manufacturing industry. We have to remember that the big picture is made up of a lot of smaller pictures.

Dundee has had many successes but, like other parts of the country, it has also had problems—the most recent case was that of Agritay, in which more than 100 jobs were lost in the city. The minister was right to point out that such problems occur partly because companies operate in the global marketplace and are competing with Turkish and east European manufacturers that pay workers a fraction of what workers in Scotland are paid and partly because of interest and exchange rate levels, which are hurting manufacturing badly. The Scottish Executive and the Westminster Government must take that on board.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C708643", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 191.0, "ContributionID": 708643, "EditedText": "Please close.", "EditedTextHTML": "Please close.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1962E35P56C708650", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mundell, David", "ID": 1962, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Mundell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David Mundell (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 208.0, "ContributionID": 708650, "EditedText": "I want to restate my registered interest in BT before I speak in this debate. I will also leave behind my chronicled history of the past 20 years and try to avoid that pitfall in what has been a generally constructive debate. I was pleased to hear about the minister's visit to the USA. In Scottish industry, particularly in the manufacturing sector, it is extremely important that we look outward and examine the practices that are being developed elsewhere. We must not be afraid to adopt the changes that others are developing in their industries. We must be prepared to be bold and radical. I hope that Mr McLeish brought back from the USA the idea that many of the initiatives there are inspired by individuals; the same is true in parts of Europe. The contributions of the individuals behind many initiatives in silicon valley have driven those initiatives forward. A strategy is very important, and we must develop one, but the individuals who drive businesses with new ideas and approaches are particularly important. It is important that the minister and the Executive engage individuals in Scotland. On the test so far, Mr McLeish's personal approach has been well received. However, on the basis of the debate today, he will be judged against other criteria such as whether we can cut regulation, whether his efforts in lobbying the UK Government on high pound and interest rate policies are effective and whether Mr Tosh's suggestions on roads are taken on board. Mr McLeish was well received when he visited Dumfries after the closure of the Nestlé plant, but I agree with some of Mr Swinney's comments. The Dumfries and Galloway economic forum is to be established—that is welcome—but that was a reactive event. We must take a more proactive approach. Many members are aware of local difficulties—", "EditedTextHTML": "I want to restate my registered interest in BT before I speak in this debate. I will also leave behind my chronicled history of the past 20 years and try to avoid that pitfall in what has been a generally constructive debate.

I was pleased to hear about the minister's visit to the USA. In Scottish industry, particularly in the manufacturing sector, it is extremely important that we look outward and examine the practices that are being developed elsewhere. We must not be afraid to adopt the changes that others are developing in their industries. We must be prepared to be bold and radical.

I hope that Mr McLeish brought back from the USA the idea that many of the initiatives there are inspired by individuals; the same is true in parts of Europe. The contributions of the individuals behind many initiatives in silicon valley have driven those initiatives forward. A strategy is very important, and we must develop one, but the individuals who drive businesses with new ideas and approaches are particularly important.

It is important that the minister and the Executive engage individuals in Scotland. On the test so far, Mr McLeish's personal approach has been well received. However, on the basis of the debate today, he will be judged against other criteria such as whether we can cut regulation, whether his efforts in lobbying the UK Government on high pound and interest rate policies are effective and whether Mr Tosh's suggestions on roads are taken on board.

Mr McLeish was well received when he visited Dumfries after the closure of the Nestlé plant, but I agree with some of Mr Swinney's comments. The Dumfries and Galloway economic forum is to be established—that is welcome—but that was a reactive event. We must take a more proactive approach. Many members are aware of local difficulties—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1962E35P56C708652", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mundell, David", "ID": 1962, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Mundell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David Mundell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 212.0, "ContributionID": 708652, "EditedText": "I hope this is not a flag-waving exercise, Andrew.", "EditedTextHTML": "I hope this is not a flag-waving exercise, Andrew.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C708653", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 214.0, "ContributionID": 708653, "EditedText": "It has taken about two hours for the first lame gag, so I suppose I should be grateful. Does Mr Mundell agree that we need proactive, before-the-fact measures? Will he back the amendment, which is just the tool required to deliver such measures?", "EditedTextHTML": "It has taken about two hours for the first lame gag, so I suppose I should be grateful.

Does Mr Mundell agree that we need proactive, before-the-fact measures? Will he back the amendment, which is just the tool required to deliver such measures?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1837E108P186C708658", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mulligan, Mary", "ID": 1837, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Linlithgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Mulligan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Mary Mulligan (Linlithgow) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 226.0, "ContributionID": 708658, "EditedText": "We all welcome the pledge of Scottish business and trade unions to work with the Scottish Executive to develop a Scottish manufacturing strategy. Although the manufacturing sector has been on a downward trend, that trend seems to be slowing. There are still more than 300,000 jobs in the sector. The preservation of those and the creation of others is essential to ensure that Scotland has a widespread economic base and does not become reliant on only one area. The key to our strategy has to be continual forward planning. Most firms operate in a global market; they cannot sit back and assume that their market position will be there for ever. The first point that we should look at is skills development. Training does not happen overnight; business must work with our education sector to develop potential. This week, I met representatives from Sun Microsystems in Linlithgow. It has a flourishing business and it told me that the local skills base was one of the reasons it sited in that area. Even so, it is having difficulty finding computer engineers. It said that to get young people on the right academic path can take up to five years, so we have to take a long- term view. Needless to say, I rushed home and told my 12-year-old son that that was where his future lay. I must also make it clear that neither I nor the management of the firm are suggesting that we train school-age children for specific jobs. We have to keep their training and their education broadly based. We need to ensure that they have a basis of knowledge on which colleges and work places can build specific training programmes. We should also consider changing demand. Last week, I met constituents who are employees of Levi Strauss in Whitburn. The market for that company's jeans has fallen drastically. An industrial strategy would enable firms that work in areas such as fashion, where demand is fickle, to plan ahead. John Swinney said that the minister is not suggesting enough in the way of early intervention, particularly in relation to firms that are struggling. I agree with him, but he offered no suggestions as to how we should get into those firms at an early stage. If he wants to make a suggestion, I would be glad to hear it.", "EditedTextHTML": "We all welcome the pledge of Scottish business and trade unions to work with the Scottish Executive to develop a Scottish manufacturing strategy. Although the manufacturing sector has been on a downward trend, that trend seems to be slowing. There are still more than 300,000 jobs in the sector. The preservation of those and the creation of others is essential to ensure that Scotland has a widespread economic base and does not become reliant on only one area.

The key to our strategy has to be continual forward planning. Most firms operate in a global market; they cannot sit back and assume that their market position will be there for ever.

The first point that we should look at is skills development. Training does not happen overnight; business must work with our education sector to develop potential. This week, I met representatives from Sun Microsystems in Linlithgow. It has a flourishing business and it told me that the local skills base was one of the reasons it sited in that area. Even so, it is having difficulty finding computer engineers. It said that to get young people on the right academic path can take up to five years, so we have to take a long- term view. Needless to say, I rushed home and told my 12-year-old son that that was where his future lay.

I must also make it clear that neither I nor the management of the firm are suggesting that we train school-age children for specific jobs. We have to keep their training and their education broadly based. We need to ensure that they have a basis of knowledge on which colleges and work places can build specific training programmes.

We should also consider changing demand. Last week, I met constituents who are employees of Levi Strauss in Whitburn. The market for that company's jeans has fallen drastically. An industrial strategy would enable firms that work in areas such as fashion, where demand is fickle, to plan ahead.

John Swinney said that the minister is not suggesting enough in the way of early intervention, particularly in relation to firms that are struggling. I agree with him, but he offered no suggestions as to how we should get into those firms at an early stage. If he wants to make a suggestion, I would be glad to hear it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C708668", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 250.0, "ContributionID": 708668, "EditedText": "Will Fergus Ewing give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Fergus Ewing give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C708673", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 261.0, "ContributionID": 708673, "EditedText": "My charity does not extend so far when we have thought about the idea and are implementing it anyway. I am happy to accept, in the spirit of co-operation, that the SNP have come up with a laudable initiative. Where they go badly wrong is in the part of the amendment which combines, confuses and distorts the roles of Parliament and the Executive. Without taking this matter further—I have many important points to respond to—if the SNP accept what I have said, we could proceed on the basis that the amendment could be withdrawn. If not, we will have a division.", "EditedTextHTML": "My charity does not extend so far when we have thought about the idea and are implementing it anyway. I am happy to accept, in the spirit of co-operation, that the SNP have come up with a laudable initiative. Where they go badly wrong is in the part of the amendment which combines, confuses and distorts the roles of Parliament and the Executive.

Without taking this matter further—I have many important points to respond to—if the SNP accept what I have said, we could proceed on the basis that the amendment could be withdrawn. If not, we will have a division.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C708677", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 269.0, "ContributionID": 708677, "EditedText": "I wish to progress to the question that has been raised about the rapid response initiative. The SNP should be realistic about that. This is not pre-Gorbachev Russia. We do not have a command economy. We do not have planning units littered around that can phone every company in Scotland every day of the week to find out whether redundancies or closures are being planned. In an ideal world, that might be the way to go.We have a system that operates on two levels. First, we pick up company and labour market intelligence, but the overwhelming majority of Scottish companies never come near Government—that might be a good thing. We are trying to encourage companies to approach us with difficulties, as we want to know about them. We get that intelligence through the local authorities, the local enterprise network, the Government, MSPs and MPs, and we need to improve that system. Secondly, it is surely right that when we know what is happening, we intervene by trying to assist the work force to move on. Even at a late stage, we can discuss the options of investing and helping.", "EditedTextHTML": "I wish to progress to the question that has been raised about the rapid response initiative. The SNP should be realistic about that. This is not pre-Gorbachev Russia. We do not have a command economy. We do not have planning units littered around that can phone every company in Scotland every day of the week to find out whether redundancies or closures are being planned. In an ideal world, that might be the

way to go.

We have a system that operates on two levels. First, we pick up company and labour market intelligence, but the overwhelming majority of Scottish companies never come near Government—that might be a good thing. We are trying to encourage companies to approach us with difficulties, as we want to know about them. We get that intelligence through the local authorities, the local enterprise network, the Government, MSPs and MPs, and we need to improve that system.

Secondly, it is surely right that when we know what is happening, we intervene by trying to assist the work force to move on. Even at a late stage, we can discuss the options of investing and helping.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C708681", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 277.0, "ContributionID": 708681, "EditedText": "I cannot give way as I want to speed onwards.", "EditedTextHTML": "I cannot give way as I want to speed onwards.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1762E216P508C708682", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Elder, Dorothy-Grace", "ID": 1762, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 279.0, "ContributionID": 708682, "EditedText": "Why does the bread not come from Scotland?", "EditedTextHTML": "Why does the bread not come from Scotland?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "C708686", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26874, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 285.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 285.0, "ID": 26874, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 289.0, "ContributionID": 708686, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708687", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26874, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 285.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 285.0, "ID": 26874, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 291.0, "ContributionID": 708687, "EditedText": "In that case, there will be a division. Those who wish to support Mr Swinney's amendment should vote yes.", "EditedTextHTML": "In that case, there will be a division. Those who wish to support Mr Swinney's amendment should vote yes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "C708690", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26874, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 285.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 285.0, "ID": 26874, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 296.0, "ContributionID": 708690, "EditedText": "Amendment disagreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment disagreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708691", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26874, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 285.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 285.0, "ID": 26874, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 297.0, "ContributionID": 708691, "EditedText": "The next question is, that motion S1M-171, in the name of Henry McLeish, be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "The next question is, that motion S1M-171, in the name of Henry McLeish, be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "C708693", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26874, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 285.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 285.0, "ID": 26874, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 300.0, "ContributionID": 708693, "EditedText": "That the Parliament believes that a vibrant manufacturing sector will continue to play an important part in Scotland's knowledge driven economy.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament believes that a vibrant manufacturing sector will continue to play an important part in Scotland's knowledge driven economy.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5139805+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1775E171P452C708699", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Football Clubs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26875, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 301.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 301.0, "ID": 26875, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeod, Fiona", "ID": 1775, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona McLeod", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona McLeod (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 312.0, "ContributionID": 708699, "EditedText": "Thank you, fellow Jags supporter. We should all welcome youth and community sport development, especially when it involves young children in the league football clubs, with their connotations of prestige. However, we must approach such development as part of a strategic package. Today's motion mentions only the Scottish football leagues. If we look abroad, especially to Norway and Sweden, we can find wonderful examples of indoor community football facilities, which are owned by the communities and have played a major role in enabling those countries to flourish as footballing nations. We need indoor football facilities in Scotland—we all had to walk across here in the rain this evening. The Parliament must do more than note the current financial difficulties faced by our smaller clubs. We must also investigate how the situation at the national stadium at Hampden arose. In August, the Sunday Herald reported that the lottery sports fund had been slashed by a third and that just £7 million would be allocated for all the capital projects in Scotland. Could that sum be anywhere near the amount that it is alleged in the lobbygate transcript the Government pledged following a meeting organised by Beattie Media between Sam Galbraith and the Scottish Premier League at a Rangers game? Given how long I have waited for answers on Hampden, I wonder how long it will be before we get answers on those current financial problems. We must ensure that our young footballers have access to suitable facilities in their communities and that such access is not provided at the whim of lobbyists.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you, fellow Jags supporter. We should all welcome youth and community sport development, especially when it involves young children in the league football clubs, with their connotations of prestige. However, we must approach such development as part of a strategic package. Today's motion mentions only the Scottish football leagues.

If we look abroad, especially to Norway and Sweden, we can find wonderful examples of indoor community football facilities, which are owned by the communities and have played a major role in enabling those countries to flourish as footballing nations. We need indoor football facilities in Scotland—we all had to walk across here in the rain this evening.

The Parliament must do more than note the current financial difficulties faced by our smaller clubs. We must also investigate how the situation at the national stadium at Hampden arose. In August, the Sunday Herald reported that the lottery sports fund had been slashed by a third and that just £7 million would be allocated for all the capital projects in Scotland. Could that sum be anywhere near the amount that it is alleged in the lobbygate transcript the Government pledged following a meeting organised by Beattie Media between Sam Galbraith and the Scottish Premier League at a Rangers game?

Given how long I have waited for answers on Hampden, I wonder how long it will be before we get answers on those current financial problems. We must ensure that our young footballers have access to suitable facilities in their communities and that such access is not provided at the whim of lobbyists.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C708701", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Football Clubs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26875, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 301.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 301.0, "ID": 26875, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Brian Monteith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 318.0, "ContributionID": 708701, "EditedText": "I thank Mr Gorrie for giving me this opportunity to speak on this subject. I apologise in advance if I have offended anybody by wearing my favours. A number of other members and I thought that we might bring some colour to a normally sober occasion. I am conscious that time is, as always, at a premium, but I want to touch on a number of issues. First, however, I declare my interest as chairman of the Hibernian Football Club Shareholders Association. I am also vice-chairman of Hands on Hibs, a supporters body that was set up to campaign for the financial restructuring of the club with the particular aim of attracting new capital to deal with the debts that have been run up over the years. Hibs is not—this season at least—considered a member of the lower leagues, but it is worth noting that, in the past two years, it has run up debts of some £3 million. The club has made a loss in six of the past nine years. It is very difficult for a club of that size to recover from having had debts for two years, never mind the cumulative debt. Even if the team was to do particularly well and, for example, win the Scottish cup as Hearts did a season ago, that would not be a guarantee of financial success. Hearts, too, has a large debt even though it can welcome investment from the Scottish Media Group plc. Even clubs that do well in the Scottish league system find it difficult to get by, with the exception of the old firm. In a recent survey, Greenock Morton was found to be the only club out of 30 in the lower leagues that has a net asset value. From that position, it is trying to rebuild its stadium so that, if it can get into the Scottish Premier League, it will be able to comply with the league's rules. A club such as that faces great difficulties. A team in the English third division receives £250,000 every year through television rights. Clubs know in advance they will get that money and can budget accordingly. Scottish clubs, by comparison, have no certainty of money coming in, which has been a great disadvantage to them. Foreign players have been introduced at all levels, particularly in the premier league. It used to be only the old firm that had foreign players, but they are now in teams throughout the premier league. That ensures that money from transfers to Scottish teams does not trickle down—money is not transferring from the larger clubs to the smaller clubs. That is creating financial difficulties. There is a growing gulf between not only the premier league and the lower leagues, but the old firm and the other premier league teams. It is difficult to see how that can be resolved without an overall review by the leagues, not just in Scotland but throughout Europe. We must allow greater openness in markets so that teams can start earning money from television rights and so that those rights can pass down through the leagues, which will also allow teams to aspire to move up through the leagues. I would argue that the Scottish league uses restrictive practices. Some members may want to cast their minds back to the time when Cowdenbeath won promotion for the first time in its history. What did it do? It sacked its manager. There is no doubt that a number of Scottish teams are happy to lie in the lower leagues. We must encourage them to move up and allow those that do not try to move up to move down. Similarly, we must allow clubs that are outside the Scottish league to aspire to be better and to move into the league. There are many teams that draw larger crowds and play more attractive football than teams in the Scottish leagues do—let them move into the Scottish leagues. In closing, I say that, as Donald pointed out, youth programmes are important—they will be the salvation of teams. It is also important for local authorities to examine the difficulties that they can create with planning consents and for leagues to investigate issues such as how many times teams play each other. We should have an open pyramid structure in Scotland so that teams from the bottom can move up, as English teams such as Wimbledon and Watford have done. Aspirational teams will move up and people will invest in them.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank Mr Gorrie for giving me this opportunity to speak on this subject. I apologise in advance if I have offended anybody by wearing my favours. A number of other members and I thought that we might bring some colour to a normally sober occasion.

I am conscious that time is, as always, at a premium, but I want to touch on a number of issues. First, however, I declare my interest as chairman of the Hibernian Football Club Shareholders Association. I am also vice-chairman of Hands on Hibs, a supporters body that was set up to campaign for the financial restructuring of the club with the particular aim of attracting new capital to deal with the debts that have been run up over the years.

Hibs is not—this season at least—considered a member of the lower leagues, but it is worth noting that, in the past two years, it has run up debts of some £3 million. The club has made a loss in six of the past nine years. It is very difficult for a club of that size to recover from having had debts for two years, never mind the cumulative debt. Even if the team was to do particularly well and, for example, win the Scottish cup as Hearts did a season ago, that would not be a guarantee of financial success.

Hearts, too, has a large debt even though it can welcome investment from the Scottish Media Group plc. Even clubs that do well in the Scottish league system find it difficult to get by, with the exception of the old firm.

In a recent survey, Greenock Morton was found to be the only club out of 30 in the lower leagues that has a net asset value. From that position, it is trying to rebuild its stadium so that, if it can get into the Scottish Premier League, it will be able to comply with the league's rules. A club such as that faces great difficulties.

A team in the English third division receives £250,000 every year through television rights. Clubs know in advance they will get that money and can budget accordingly. Scottish clubs, by comparison, have no certainty of money coming in, which has been a great disadvantage to them.

Foreign players have been introduced at all levels, particularly in the premier league. It used to be only the old firm that had foreign players, but they are now in teams throughout the premier league. That ensures that money from transfers to Scottish teams does not trickle down—money is not transferring from the larger clubs to the smaller clubs. That is creating financial difficulties.

There is a growing gulf between not only the premier league and the lower leagues, but the old firm and the other premier league teams. It is difficult to see how that can be resolved without an overall review by the leagues, not just in Scotland but throughout Europe. We must allow greater openness in markets so that teams can start earning money from television rights and so that those rights can pass down through the leagues, which will also allow teams to aspire to move up through the leagues. I would argue that the Scottish league uses restrictive practices.

Some members may want to cast their minds back to the time when Cowdenbeath won promotion for the first time in its history. What did it do? It sacked its manager.

There is no doubt that a number of Scottish teams are happy to lie in the lower leagues. We must encourage them to move up and allow those that do not try to move up to move down. Similarly, we must allow clubs that are outside the Scottish league to aspire to be better and to move into the league. There are many teams that draw larger crowds and play more attractive football than teams in the Scottish leagues do—let them move into the Scottish leagues.

In closing, I say that, as Donald pointed out, youth programmes are important—they will be the salvation of teams. It is also important for local authorities to examine the difficulties that they can create with planning consents and for leagues to investigate issues such as how many times teams play each other. We should have an open pyramid structure in Scotland so that teams from the bottom can move up, as English teams such as Wimbledon and Watford have done. Aspirational teams will move up and people will invest in them.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C708702", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Football Clubs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26875, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 301.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 301.0, "ID": 26875, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bruce Crawford (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 321.0, "ContributionID": 708702, "EditedText": "Any member who speaks in this debate will have a passion for football—I certainly have such a passion. I follow Dunfermline Athletic Football Club and, although we might not be in the premier league at the moment, I hope we will be there next season. One of the most important issues affectingfootball in Scotland is youth development. Unless we get that right, the game will go spiralling down. It is all very well for the Rangers and Celtics of this world to dip their hands into their transfer bags, pull out their money and buy a few players, but that ain't gonna happen with provincial clubs as it used to, so it is imperative that our smaller clubs find talent and hone the skills of local youngsters. Clubs are beginning to do that in a serious and meaningful way.", "EditedTextHTML": "Any member who speaks in this debate will have a passion for football—I certainly have such a passion. I follow Dunfermline Athletic Football Club and, although we might not be in the premier league at the moment, I hope we will be there next season.

One of the most important issues affecting

football in Scotland is youth development. Unless we get that right, the game will go spiralling down. It is all very well for the Rangers and Celtics of this world to dip their hands into their transfer bags, pull out their money and buy a few players, but that ain't gonna happen with provincial clubs as it used to, so it is imperative that our smaller clubs find talent and hone the skills of local youngsters. Clubs are beginning to do that in a serious and meaningful way.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C708703", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Football Clubs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26875, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 301.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 301.0, "ID": 26875, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan (Falkirk West): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 323.0, "ContributionID": 708703, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C708709", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Football Clubs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26875, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 301.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 301.0, "ID": 26875, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 335.0, "ContributionID": 708709, "EditedText": "It is a genuine and serious point of order. This is the first occasion on which such a debate in the chamber has attracted a number of members who wish to speak and there has not been time for them to do so. With the agreement of members, can the debate be extended? It is an important debate and I suggest that it is extended for a further 20 minutes.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is a genuine and serious point of order. This is the first occasion on which such a debate in the chamber has attracted a number of members who wish to speak and there has not been time for them to do so. With the agreement of members, can the debate be extended? It is an important debate and I suggest that it is extended for a further 20 minutes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C708710", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Football Clubs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26875, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 301.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 301.0, "ID": 26875, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 337.0, "ContributionID": 708710, "EditedText": "The Presiding Officer made a ruling on that last week in a previous members' debate. It was agreed that that would not be allowed in future. The extension of the debate on domestic violence was considered to be a one-off. I call Rhona Brankin to close what has been a very good debate. Can Ms Brankin have the lectern, please.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Presiding Officer made a ruling on that last week in a previous members' debate. It was agreed that that would not be allowed in future. The extension of the debate on domestic violence was considered to be a one-off. I call Rhona Brankin to close what has been a very good debate. Can Ms Brankin have the lectern, please.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C708717", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Football Clubs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26875, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 301.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 301.0, "ID": 26875, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 352.0, "ContributionID": 708717, "EditedText": "I take it that the minister supports the Taylor report. One of its recommendations was that landlocked town-centre stadiums should be moved out into greenfield sites. Ayr United is one such case. The Scottish Executive has called in that planning application, after it had been unanimously approved by the local authority. Will the minister give the matter her best attention and see what she can do to give Ayr United's stadium consent?", "EditedTextHTML": "I take it that the minister supports the Taylor report. One of its recommendations was that landlocked town-centre stadiums should be moved out into greenfield sites. Ayr United is one such case. The Scottish Executive has called in that planning application, after it had been unanimously approved by the local authority. Will the minister give the matter her best attention and see what she can do to give Ayr United's stadium consent?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1862E99P179C708718", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Football Clubs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26875, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 301.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 301.0, "ID": 26875, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Brankin, Rhona", "ID": 1862, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Midlothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Culture and Sport", "SpeakerName": "Rhona Brankin", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Rhona Brankin: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 354.0, "ContributionID": 708718, "EditedText": "Mr Gallie can rest assured that the Scottish Executive will give the matter its best consideration. The football authorities in England are contributing to outstanding works, but the football authorities in Scotland are not contributing. The Football Trust has agreed with the Department for Culture, Media and Sport that future income resulting from the reduction in pools betting duty should be allocated towards grass-roots schemes in England and Wales. The money will be allocated on a per capita basis and 8.9 per cent will be available to Scotland. The Football Trust is currently considering projects of a similar nature in Scotland, which will include help for the development of soccer academies. We believe that although it is important to put money in at the level of the elite, we must also invest in grass- roots football. Sportscotland has made awards for safety- related projects from the lottery sports fund totalling more than £2 million over two years. Sportscotland and the Football Trust will consider further applications soon. About £800,000 remains available in the current financial year. Sportscotland's lottery distribution strategy includes provision for the Taylor recommendations and other essential safety works. I want to move on to talk about the football partnership. The Scottish Executive plans to contribute £1 million towards the development of a network of football academies. That is not £10 million, as was recently reported in the press. We have said that we will contribute £1 million, and the Scottish Premier League is hoping to contribute £10 million.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Gallie can rest assured that the Scottish Executive will give the matter its best consideration.

The football authorities in England are contributing to outstanding works, but the football authorities in Scotland are not contributing. The Football Trust has agreed with the Department for Culture, Media and Sport that future income resulting from the reduction in pools betting duty should be allocated towards grass-roots schemes in England and Wales. The money will be allocated on a per capita basis and 8.9 per cent will be available to Scotland. The Football Trust is currently considering projects of a similar nature in Scotland, which will include help for the development of soccer academies. We believe that although it is important to put money in at the level of the elite, we must also invest in grass- roots football.

Sportscotland has made awards for safety- related projects from the lottery sports fund totalling more than £2 million over two years. Sportscotland and the Football Trust will consider further applications soon. About £800,000 remains available in the current financial year. Sportscotland's lottery distribution strategy includes provision for the Taylor recommendations and other essential safety works.

I want to move on to talk about the football partnership. The Scottish Executive plans to contribute £1 million towards the development of a network of football academies. That is not £10 million, as was recently reported in the press. We have said that we will contribute £1 million, and the Scottish Premier League is hoping to contribute £10 million.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2112E192P495C708719", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Football Clubs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26875, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 301.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 301.0, "ID": 26875, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacAskill, Kenny", "ID": 2112, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenny MacAskill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Kenny MacAskill (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 356.0, "ContributionID": 708719, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1862E99P179C708720", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Football Clubs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26875, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 301.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 301.0, "ID": 26875, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Brankin, Rhona", "ID": 1862, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Midlothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Culture and Sport", "SpeakerName": "Rhona Brankin", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Rhona Brankin: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 358.0, "ContributionID": 708720, "EditedText": "Not at the moment; I have a lot to get through. Additional funding is also being considered by the Scottish football partnership, which includes representatives from the SFA, the Scottish Premier League, the Scottish Football League, the Scottish Professional Footballers Association, sportscotland, the Scottish Institute of Sport, the Football Trust and the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities. That partnership agreed that a task force should draw up proposals for consideration before the end of this year. With other members of the partnership, undertook a fact-finding visit to a number of soccer academies in England on 6 and 7 September. One of the key points that was made to us was the quality of indoor provision. I accept what Fiona McLeod said: when we are looking at future provision for the development of soccer in Scotland, we need to be able to consider indoor facilities. One of the key tasks for the partnership is to identify potential sources of funding for the football academies. As I have said, the SPL is expected to be the major financial contributor to the academies. As a result, the academies are likely to be based around SPL clubs. However, that is a matter that the partnership must consider, because at the moment there is no SPL club in the north of Scotland, for example. Proposals will come out by the end of the year and will help to build on the significant youth development work that is already being carried out by the football authorities in Scotland's communities. Community access to the facilities will be a condition attached to any contribution from public funds. I believe that the prospects for developing Scottish talent have never been greater. The proposed academies will provide opportunities to ensure that, in future, our clubs will compete at the highest level of the sport. The Scottish Executive aims to continue its support of our clubs as they strive to achieve that goal. The Scottish Executive strongly supports football at a grass-roots level. Programmes such as team sport Scotland are already in place, in which a team sport co-ordinator works with SFA development officers to develop youth football. I welcome the recent developments in women's and girls' football in Scotland. Through sportscotland, we also support the national coach support programme. In addition, money is available for a talented athletes programme. Football is one of the key sports in the Scottish institute of sport. We support football at all levels, but the development of youth football has been highlighted this evening. It is something to which the Scottish Executive is committed. I will answer some of the points that were raised in the debate. Donald Gorrie talked mainly about youth football—I have covered that. Fiona McLeod mentioned Hampden. She will have read in the press that there have been meetings to identify solutions to the financial problems surrounding the national stadium. Funders have met representatives of National Stadium and Queen's Park Football Club and made a number of proposals about further financial involvement and positive developments to National Stadium's business plan. Some further work will be needed over the next few weeks, but all parties are hopeful that a resolution will be achieved. Fiona also mentioned the need for indoor facilities. I think that I have covered that, too. We agree that indoor facilities will be vital and we will consider developing them through the network of football academies. Cathy Jamieson talked about new ways of involving supporters and new forms of ownership of sports clubs. Those proposals are interesting and I will be happy to discuss them with her. Brian Monteith mentioned the possible restructuring of football leagues; that is a matter for the football authorities. I reiterate that we regard the development of football at all levels as very important. We are keen to support the development of youth football, as Donald Gorrie moved. I thank Donald for introducing this debate. It has been very short, and I hope that we will get more time in future for this important matter.", "EditedTextHTML": "Not at the moment; I have a lot to get through.

Additional funding is also being considered by the Scottish football partnership, which includes representatives from the SFA, the Scottish Premier League, the Scottish Football League, the Scottish Professional Footballers Association, sportscotland, the Scottish Institute of Sport, the Football Trust and the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities. That partnership agreed that a task force should draw up proposals for consideration before the end of this year.

With other members of the partnership, undertook a fact-finding visit to a number of soccer academies in England on 6 and 7 September. One of the key points that was made to us was the quality of indoor provision. I accept what Fiona McLeod said: when we are looking at future provision for the development of soccer in Scotland, we need to be able to consider indoor facilities.

One of the key tasks for the partnership is to identify potential sources of funding for the football

academies. As I have said, the SPL is expected to be the major financial contributor to the academies. As a result, the academies are likely to be based around SPL clubs. However, that is a matter that the partnership must consider, because at the moment there is no SPL club in the north of Scotland, for example.

Proposals will come out by the end of the year and will help to build on the significant youth development work that is already being carried out by the football authorities in Scotland's communities. Community access to the facilities will be a condition attached to any contribution from public funds.

I believe that the prospects for developing Scottish talent have never been greater. The proposed academies will provide opportunities to ensure that, in future, our clubs will compete at the highest level of the sport. The Scottish Executive aims to continue its support of our clubs as they strive to achieve that goal.

The Scottish Executive strongly supports football at a grass-roots level. Programmes such as team sport Scotland are already in place, in which a team sport co-ordinator works with SFA development officers to develop youth football. I welcome the recent developments in women's and girls' football in Scotland.

Through sportscotland, we also support the national coach support programme. In addition, money is available for a talented athletes programme. Football is one of the key sports in the Scottish institute of sport. We support football at all levels, but the development of youth football has been highlighted this evening. It is something to which the Scottish Executive is committed.

I will answer some of the points that were raised in the debate. Donald Gorrie talked mainly about youth football—I have covered that.

Fiona McLeod mentioned Hampden. She will have read in the press that there have been meetings to identify solutions to the financial problems surrounding the national stadium. Funders have met representatives of National Stadium and Queen's Park Football Club and made a number of proposals about further financial involvement and positive developments to National Stadium's business plan. Some further work will be needed over the next few weeks, but all parties are hopeful that a resolution will be achieved.

Fiona also mentioned the need for indoor facilities. I think that I have covered that, too. We agree that indoor facilities will be vital and we will consider developing them through the network of football academies.

Cathy Jamieson talked about new ways of involving supporters and new forms of ownership of sports clubs. Those proposals are interesting and I will be happy to discuss them with her.

Brian Monteith mentioned the possible restructuring of football leagues; that is a matter for the football authorities.

I reiterate that we regard the development of football at all levels as very important. We are keen to support the development of youth football, as Donald Gorrie moved. I thank Donald for introducing this debate. It has been very short, and I hope that we will get more time in future for this important matter.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C708721", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Football Clubs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26875, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 301.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 301.0, "ID": 26875, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 360.0, "ContributionID": 708721, "EditedText": "I thank members for their participation and now close the meeting.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank members for their participation and now close the meeting.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "C708722", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Football Clubs", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26875, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 301.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 301.0, "ID": 26875, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 362.0, "ContributionID": 708722, "EditedText": "Meeting closed at 17:37.", "EditedTextHTML": "Meeting closed at 17:37.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.5296074+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1756E184P464C708634", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Grahame, Christine", "ID": 1756, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Christine Grahame", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Christine Grahame: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 172.0, "ContributionID": 708634, "EditedText": "Does Mr Harper think that the reason for Denmark's success might be because it is an independent country?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does Mr Harper think that the reason for Denmark's success might be because it is an independent country?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:01:31.7066757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1773E197P503C708661", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hyslop, Fiona", "ID": 1773, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona Hyslop", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona Hyslop (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 233.0, "ContributionID": 708661, "EditedText": "The key phrase in the Executive's motion is \"a vibrant manufacturing sector\", but some of today's speeches raise questions as to whether we really have a vibrant manufacturing sector. John McAllion referred to a tyre manufacturer and a jeans maker, and members from West Lothian will be aware that those are the two industries that we have lost or are likely to lose because of closure. That leads me to ask whether we have a vibrant manufacturing sector. In business, the saying goes that the only certainty is change, but to have change we must have flexibility. That means flexibility of thought rather than just flexibility of action, and that means the move to the knowledge economy. Education is key to the knowledge economy and anything that acts as a disincentive to young people going into further and higher education is a matter to which we must give attention. Saying that in business the only certainty is change is rather an obvious statement, but so is the motion. Stating the obvious does not in itself supply the solution to problems in the manufacturing sector or tell us how we can promote the knowledge economy. I want to mention interest rates and the pound, because they are crucial to the debate. In the Lothians, Continental Tyres, a traditional manufacturer, had problems not only with exporting, but with investment. Many companies consider locating in Scotland, but the cost of investment can be a disincentive. I spoke to people from a high-tech company that is one of the major employers in West Lothian. That state- of-the-art high-tech company represents the other side of the spectrum, but its representatives said that, although they wanted to make the step to the next generation of thinking in the knowledge economy, they had a problem with investment caused by the strength of the pound. We should consider some of the practical proposals. The minister mentioned improvements to labour market intelligence, but there has to be company intelligence and that is a matter of attitude and approach. We should not be talking about them and us in discussing business and employment issues; we should have an on-going interactive dialogue, rather than rapid responses to crises. Rather than a rapid response review, I would prefer proactive planning units, so that there can be constant interaction. On a practical note, we must ensure that training money can be allocated now, so that men in their 50s who are losing their jobs in traditional manufacturing are not left behind. In moving to a knowledge economy, we must all move together. By moving together, we can have a confident economy. Yes, let us move to a knowledge economy, but let us be realistic about whether we have a vibrant manufacturing base.", "EditedTextHTML": "The key phrase in the Executive's motion is \"a vibrant manufacturing sector\", but some of today's speeches raise questions as to whether we really have a vibrant manufacturing sector. John McAllion referred to a tyre manufacturer and a jeans maker, and members from West Lothian will be aware that those are the two industries that we have lost or are likely to lose because of closure. That leads me to ask whether we have a vibrant manufacturing sector.

In business, the saying goes that the only certainty is change, but to have change we must have flexibility. That means flexibility of thought rather than just flexibility of action, and that means the move to the knowledge economy. Education is key to the knowledge economy and anything that acts as a disincentive to young people going into further and higher education is a matter to which we must give attention. Saying that in business the only certainty is change is rather an obvious statement, but so is the motion. Stating the obvious does not in itself supply the solution to problems in the manufacturing sector or tell us how we can promote the knowledge economy.

I want to mention interest rates and the pound, because they are crucial to the debate. In the Lothians, Continental Tyres, a traditional manufacturer, had problems not only with exporting, but with investment. Many companies consider locating in Scotland, but the cost of investment can be a disincentive. I spoke to people from a high-tech company that is one of the major employers in West Lothian. That state- of-the-art high-tech company represents the other

side of the spectrum, but its representatives said that, although they wanted to make the step to the next generation of thinking in the knowledge economy, they had a problem with investment caused by the strength of the pound.

We should consider some of the practical proposals. The minister mentioned improvements to labour market intelligence, but there has to be company intelligence and that is a matter of attitude and approach. We should not be talking about them and us in discussing business and employment issues; we should have an on-going interactive dialogue, rather than rapid responses to crises. Rather than a rapid response review, I would prefer proactive planning units, so that there can be constant interaction.

On a practical note, we must ensure that training money can be allocated now, so that men in their 50s who are losing their jobs in traditional manufacturing are not left behind. In moving to a knowledge economy, we must all move together. By moving together, we can have a confident economy. Yes, let us move to a knowledge economy, but let us be realistic about whether we have a vibrant manufacturing base.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:01:31.7066757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1870E181P475C708639", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robison, Shona", "ID": 1870, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Shona Robison", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Shona Robison (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 183.0, "ContributionID": 708639, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "

Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:01:17.555696+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C708669", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fergus Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 252.0, "ContributionID": 708669, "EditedText": "Not just yet—later on. Contain yourself, Phil. The motion states:\"That the Parliament believes that a vibrant manufacturing sector will continue to play an important part in Scotland's knowledge driven economy.\" Who could disagree with that? It would be rather like deciding that one should boycott Mothering Sunday—not something that I would ever dream of advocating. Laughter. I am puzzled about two matters. First, why has the minister announced today that he is convening a group of business leaders that will produce a manufacturing strategy, although there is already a manufacturing strategy in the \"Pathfinders to the Parliament\" document? That strategy was produced in March, and was welcomed. The document contains a picture of Gus Macdonald, who used to be the Scottish Business and Industry Minister, and it comes up with a number of recommendations that I presume the Government may support, although it will not say so. Will the minister, in his summing-up speech, say why some of the excellent ideas in that strategy have not been included in a bill? Why is there not a bill that includes some of those measures—and they are micro-measures, because the minister will not talk to Gordon Brown about the real problems—which could help business in Scotland? Those measures include allowing security to be created over movable property, so that businesses can borrow over the strength of their movable property, both corporeal and incorporeal. It is absolutely essential that the knowledge industry is able to borrow, create capital and invest. Secondly, Cadence said that it came to Scotland partly because of the effectiveness and the speed with which it could obtain interim interdict in the Court of Session to protect intellectual property rights. I have asked about reform of the Court of Session, which would remove from the Court of Session all the remedies that should be in the sheriff courts. The purpose of that suggestion is to make the Court of Session, our supreme court, even more efficient, so that the reason that Cadence came here can be built on and strengthened, and so that our courts can offer the very best attractions to inward investors. Finally, why are we not reforming business rates now, before the revaluation? There are many recommendations to do so in \"Pathfinders to the Parliament\". On many occasions, representations of a serious and considered nature have been made to the minister. We have not heard the Executive's response to those. We have heard many interesting contributions from speakers of all parties about problems in their constituencies. My constituency is no exception in experiencing many problems. One of the most successful engineering companies in Scotland is A I Welders. I spoke to its managing director, John Hunter, yesterday. He said that, over the past three years, the effect of the high pound has been to cut 35 per cent off his profit margins—35 per cent. The Executive can ignore the problem if it wants, but ignoring it will not make it go away. The minister should not kid himself that there are people in manufacturing out there who are not listening carefully to hear him spell out what he will say to Gordon Brown about his disastrous economic policies. It seems to me that those policies are not designed even for England or for the south-east of England, but are designed entirely for the City of London, so that international capital flows into this country, attracted by the high interest rates. The amendment that we offer, which suggests full and regular benchmarking, is one that should be approved. Whatever strategy we come up with, we must be able to assess how successful it is. That is what benchmarking means, and that is why benchmarking has been adopted as a method of ensuring success and effectiveness in business all over the world. It astonishes me that the Conservatives would reject such a proposal. It is unfortunate that we cannot accept good ideas regardless of their source. I hope that the amendment, which is put forward as a constructive suggestion of a way in which to improve and assess our manufacturing strategy, will be accepted by the Executive, so that, once the strategy is devised, we can ensure that it works for Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "Not just yet—later on. Contain yourself, Phil.

The motion states:

\"That the Parliament believes that a vibrant manufacturing sector will continue to play an important part in Scotland's knowledge driven economy.\"

Who could disagree with that? It would be rather like deciding that one should boycott Mothering Sunday—not something that I would ever dream of advocating. [Laughter.]

I am puzzled about two matters. First, why has the minister announced today that he is convening a group of business leaders that will produce a manufacturing strategy, although there is already a manufacturing strategy in the \"Pathfinders to the Parliament\" document? That strategy was produced in March, and was welcomed. The document contains a picture of Gus Macdonald, who used to be the Scottish Business and Industry Minister, and it comes up with a number of recommendations that I presume the Government may support, although it will not say so.

Will the minister, in his summing-up speech, say why some of the excellent ideas in that strategy have not been included in a bill? Why is there not a bill that includes some of those measures—and they are micro-measures, because the minister will not talk to Gordon Brown about the real problems—which could help business in Scotland? Those measures include allowing security to be created over movable property, so that businesses can borrow over the strength of their movable property, both corporeal and incorporeal. It is absolutely essential that the knowledge industry is able to borrow, create capital and invest.

Secondly, Cadence said that it came to Scotland partly because of the effectiveness and the speed with which it could obtain interim interdict in the Court of Session to protect intellectual property rights. I have asked about reform of the Court of Session, which would remove from the Court of

Session all the remedies that should be in the sheriff courts. The purpose of that suggestion is to make the Court of Session, our supreme court, even more efficient, so that the reason that Cadence came here can be built on and strengthened, and so that our courts can offer the very best attractions to inward investors.

Finally, why are we not reforming business rates now, before the revaluation? There are many recommendations to do so in \"Pathfinders to the Parliament\". On many occasions, representations of a serious and considered nature have been made to the minister. We have not heard the Executive's response to those.

We have heard many interesting contributions from speakers of all parties about problems in their constituencies. My constituency is no exception in experiencing many problems. One of the most successful engineering companies in Scotland is A I Welders. I spoke to its managing director, John Hunter, yesterday. He said that, over the past three years, the effect of the high pound has been to cut 35 per cent off his profit margins—35 per cent. The Executive can ignore the problem if it wants, but ignoring it will not make it go away.

The minister should not kid himself that there are people in manufacturing out there who are not listening carefully to hear him spell out what he will say to Gordon Brown about his disastrous economic policies. It seems to me that those policies are not designed even for England or for the south-east of England, but are designed entirely for the City of London, so that international capital flows into this country, attracted by the high interest rates.

The amendment that we offer, which suggests full and regular benchmarking, is one that should be approved. Whatever strategy we come up with, we must be able to assess how successful it is. That is what benchmarking means, and that is why benchmarking has been adopted as a method of ensuring success and effectiveness in business all over the world. It astonishes me that the Conservatives would reject such a proposal. It is unfortunate that we cannot accept good ideas regardless of their source. I hope that the amendment, which is put forward as a constructive suggestion of a way in which to improve and assess our manufacturing strategy, will be accepted by the Executive, so that, once the strategy is devised, we can ensure that it works for Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:01:17.555696+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C708589", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 74.0, "ContributionID": 708589, "EditedText": "Many important lessons have emerged from the pathfinder reports. I hope that the Government takes those points seriously in the formulation of its manufacturing strategy. The Government should consider four issues. In the minister's considered and, as always, carefully constructed address, he managed to talk about difficult trading conditions, but not about interest rates and the value of sterling. To have a realistic debate, we must understand the impact that interest rates have had on the manufacturing base in Scotland. Exports are on the increase, but from a lower level because of the impact of interest rates and the value of sterling. The Scottish Council Development and Industry responded to the last announcement of an increase in interest rates, by saying that \"this decision to increase interest rates is premature. Although the economic data is looking positive, it's important not to get carried away.\" I fear that we have become carried away on a small amount of good news. The current value of sterling is over DM3. The latest Confederation of British Industry survey of exporters found that 15 per cent had been wiped off the value of Scottish manufactured exports as a result of the value of sterling. We cannot afford to lose £415 million from the Scottish economy.", "EditedTextHTML": "Many important lessons have emerged from the pathfinder reports. I hope that the Government takes those points seriously in the formulation of its manufacturing strategy.

The Government should consider four issues. In the minister's considered and, as always, carefully constructed address, he managed to talk about difficult trading conditions, but not about interest rates and the value of sterling. To have a realistic debate, we must understand the impact that interest rates have had on the manufacturing base in Scotland. Exports are on the increase, but from a lower level because of the impact of interest rates and the value of sterling. The Scottish Council Development and Industry responded to the last announcement of an increase in interest rates, by saying that

\"this decision to increase interest rates is premature. Although the economic data is looking positive, it's important not to get carried away.\"

I fear that we have become carried away on a small amount of good news.

The current value of sterling is over DM3. The latest Confederation of British Industry survey of exporters found that 15 per cent had been wiped off the value of Scottish manufactured exports as a result of the value of sterling. We cannot afford to lose £415 million from the Scottish economy.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:28:33.8639665+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C708598", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 29 Sep 1999", "ID": 4181 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-29T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26873, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 23.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 23.0, "ID": 26873, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 92.0, "ContributionID": 708598, "EditedText": "Forgive me, Ms Scanlon, I must draw my remarks to a close. That question cannot be answered by giving an anodyne tick to the anodyne question in that anodyne document. That question can only be answered if we have a clear understanding of the current condition of the Scottish economy and are prepared to set hard targets that the Government must achieve. The SNP argues that the Government should commit to the production of a quarterly \"Benchmark Scotland\", a reliable and authoritative publication that would give an anchor to the analysis of Government performance on the economy and the targets that are to be achieved. That kind of performance assessment would be part of the furniture of any effective and successful private sector organisation. An initiative such as \"Benchmark Scotland\" is strongly supported by the community of economic and business analysts in Scotland. In conclusion, we wish the Government strategy well. But we must set ambitious targets for what we want to achieve, effectively and decisively, in this policy area. The Government must accept targets for achievement and Parliament must judge. That will deliver better policy making and real improvements to the lives of people in Scotland. I move, as an amendment to motion S1M-171, in the name of Henry McLeish, to insert at end: \"but notes that a properly informed manufacturing strategy requires a greater understanding of Scotland's relative economic performance in comparison with our competitors and notes that the Executive do not currently provide this information; calls upon the Executive to bring forward, in consultation with the Parliament, business/industrial organisations and economic analysts, a full and regular benchmarking exercise assessing the performance of the Scottish economy across the widest possible range of indicators in comparison with our main competitors, and notes that in doing so the Executive's manufacturing and industrial strategy will be open to more effective scrutiny\".", "EditedTextHTML": "Forgive me, Ms Scanlon, I must draw my remarks to a close.

That question cannot be answered by giving an anodyne tick to the anodyne question in that anodyne document. That question can only be answered if we have a clear understanding of the current condition of the Scottish economy and are prepared to set hard targets that the Government must achieve.

The SNP argues that the Government should commit to the production of a quarterly \"Benchmark Scotland\", a reliable and authoritative publication that would give an anchor to the analysis of Government performance on the economy and the targets that are to be achieved. That kind of performance assessment would be part of the furniture of any effective and successful private sector organisation. An initiative such as \"Benchmark Scotland\" is strongly supported by the community of economic and business analysts in Scotland.

In conclusion, we wish the Government strategy well. But we must set ambitious targets for what we want to achieve, effectively and decisively, in this policy area. The Government must accept targets for achievement and Parliament must judge. That will deliver better policy making and real improvements to the lives of people in Scotland.

I move, as an amendment to motion S1M-171, in the name of Henry McLeish, to insert at end:

\"but notes that a properly informed manufacturing strategy requires a greater understanding of Scotland's relative economic performance in comparison with our competitors and notes that the Executive do not currently provide this information; calls upon the Executive to bring forward, in consultation with the Parliament, business/industrial organisations and economic analysts, a full and regular benchmarking exercise assessing the performance of the Scottish economy across the widest possible range of indicators in comparison with our main competitors, and notes that in doing so the Executive's manufacturing and industrial strategy will be open to more effective scrutiny\".

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:28:33.8639665+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C708319", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 202.0, "ContributionID": 708319, "EditedText": "I am grateful to you, Presiding Officer, for calling me to speak in what is one of the more important debates that has taken place in this Parliament. There is no doubt at all that the ability of people to feel safe in their homes and to walk the streets of their local communities without the fear of being attacked is fundamental to their quality of life. It is for that reason that I broadly support the community-based approach that the Government is taking and welcome the importance that it is placing on this issue. As the minister acknowledged, even the quickest of glances at the statistics shows that there is no room for complacency. During 1998, recorded crime increased by an extremely concerning 7 per cent for drug-related crime and by 3 per cent for crimes of dishonesty—the two statistics are not unrelated. Although the latter represents a drop of 2 per cent since 1997, more than 76,000 crimes of vandalism were committed in 1998. Such crimes blight the lives of many people in Scotland, especially in urban areas. The initiatives that the Government has announced in the guidance paper and in the minister's remarks this morning are to be welcomed, but they must be followed through into communities and backed up with resources. I do not want to labour my criticism, but it is worth noting that the minister did not centrally address the issue of resources—perhaps he will return to that when he sums up. The provision of resources at community level is crucial in ensuring that the efforts of local communities to combat crime are reinforced. Closed-circuit television has been mentioned. I pay tribute to many local agencies in Glasgow, particularly housing associations, which have led the way in installing CCTV cameras with the enthusiastic support of local people. Most local people welcome the installation of CCTV cameras and, as my colleague Ms Cunningham said, demand is on the increase. However, there is some frustration with the associated problems, especially the lack of resources to ensure that the cameras are monitored and operational at all times and that there is consistency in the monitoring of the camera output. We must also consider the impact of installing CCTV cameras in one street on neighbouring streets that do not have them. Since being elected, I have been struck by the number of people who live in areas without CCTV cameras and feel that they are bearing the brunt of crime that has been relocated from areas with cameras. The Executive and other agencies must give serious consideration to that when they make decisions about the installation of cameras. Ms Cunningham mentioned bobbies on the beat and I have listened with interest to members' comments about the police. We must face the reality that, in many parts of Scotland—especially in Glasgow, the area that I know best—police presence in some communities is minimal, which leads to diminished public confidence. That is not a criticism of the police, who do a good job in difficult circumstances. We must ensure that the police presence on the streets is increased. To reiterate a point that was made earlier, we must ensure that the perceived success of local partnerships does not have an impact on the police presence. To his credit, the minister acknowledged the link between poverty and crime. As Ms Cunningham said, we must recognise that the best way of combating crime is to provide people with jobs, real incomes, better educational opportunities and the feeling that they have a stake in the communities in which they live. Young people commit much of the crime— especially in parts of Glasgow—that blights the lives of so many people. We must recognise that decisions taken by local authorities in recent years have exacerbated that problem. Tommy mentioned the situation in Pollok and I will give another example. Pollokshaws—in the Govan constituency—has a high incidence of youth crime and youth offences, but the one local facility, the local sports centre, is due to be closed by the local authority. I would like the minister to give an assurance that the Executive is considering how we can ensure that young people are given a constructive alternative to crime and offences.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful to you, Presiding Officer, for calling me to speak in what is one of the more important debates that has taken place in this Parliament.

There is no doubt at all that the ability of people to feel safe in their homes and to walk the streets of their local communities without the fear of being attacked is fundamental to their quality of life. It is for that reason that I broadly support the community-based approach that the Government is taking and welcome the importance that it is placing on this issue.

As the minister acknowledged, even the quickest of glances at the statistics shows that there is no room for complacency. During 1998, recorded crime increased by an extremely concerning 7 per cent for drug-related crime and by 3 per cent for crimes of dishonesty—the two statistics are not unrelated. Although the latter represents a drop of 2 per cent since 1997, more than 76,000 crimes of vandalism were committed in 1998. Such crimes blight the lives of many people in Scotland, especially in urban areas. The initiatives that the Government has announced in the guidance paper and in the minister's remarks this morning are to be welcomed, but they must be followed through into communities and backed up with resources.

I do not want to labour my criticism, but it is worth noting that the minister did not centrally address the issue of resources—perhaps he will return to that when he sums up. The provision of resources at community level is crucial in ensuring that the efforts of local communities to combat crime are reinforced.

Closed-circuit television has been mentioned. I pay tribute to many local agencies in Glasgow, particularly housing associations, which have led the way in installing CCTV cameras with the enthusiastic support of local people. Most local people welcome the installation of CCTV cameras and, as my colleague Ms Cunningham said, demand is on the increase. However, there is some frustration with the associated problems, especially the lack of resources to ensure that the cameras are monitored and operational at all times and that there is consistency in the monitoring of the camera output.

We must also consider the impact of installing CCTV cameras in one street on neighbouring streets that do not have them. Since being elected, I have been struck by the number of people who live in areas without CCTV cameras and feel that they are bearing the brunt of crime that has been relocated from areas with cameras. The Executive and other agencies must give serious consideration to that when they make decisions about the installation of cameras.

Ms Cunningham mentioned bobbies on the beat and I have listened with interest to members' comments about the police. We must face the reality that, in many parts of Scotland—especially in Glasgow, the area that I know best—police presence in some communities is minimal, which leads to diminished public confidence. That is not a criticism of the police, who do a good job in difficult circumstances. We must ensure that the police presence on the streets is increased. To reiterate a point that was made earlier, we must ensure that the perceived success of local partnerships does not have an impact on the police presence.

To his credit, the minister acknowledged the link between poverty and crime. As Ms Cunningham said, we must recognise that the best way of combating crime is to provide people with jobs, real incomes, better educational opportunities and the feeling that they have a stake in the communities in which they live.

Young people commit much of the crime— especially in parts of Glasgow—that blights the lives of so many people. We must recognise that decisions taken by local authorities in recent years have exacerbated that problem. Tommy mentioned the situation in Pollok and I will give another example. Pollokshaws—in the Govan constituency—has a high incidence of youth crime and youth offences, but the one local facility, the local sports centre, is due to be closed by the local authority. I would like the minister to give an assurance that the Executive is considering how we can ensure that young people are given a constructive alternative to crime and offences.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:00:39.6991441+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1756E184P464C708300", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Grahame, Christine", "ID": 1756, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Christine Grahame", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Christine Grahame: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 160.0, "ContributionID": 708300, "EditedText": "Yes. I shall now.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes. I shall now.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:01:13.4086808+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1756E184P464C708302", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Grahame, Christine", "ID": 1756, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Christine Grahame", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Christine Grahame: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 164.0, "ContributionID": 708302, "EditedText": "Phil Gallie took the words right out of my mouth. We will not have done such people any favours because we are not attacking youth crime in the right manner. Incarcerating people is not the right thing to do; prisons tend to become universities of crime, from which people graduate with better information and tricks than they went in with, and probably with worse drug problems too. I commend the children's panel system. It may be creaking at the seams now, but it was a great innovation in Scotland in 1971. It endeavoured to take children out of the penal system and to deal holistically—to use another buzz expression—with crime. Families attended and people all around tried to get to the bottom of what was wrong with the children to make them act as they did. In recent years, however, and particularly under the Conservatives, there has been a shift towards a more punitive disposal of young offenders, which does not work. After the dreadful murder of Jamie Bulger, John Major said that we should condemn more and understand less. How misguided. We can do both; we can condemn more and understand more, and that is the key to the solution. Phil Gallie should beware making judgments on cases based on what he reads in the papers. He should read the evidence; our sheriffs are not all bampots. We need an informed understanding of juvenile crime so that our disposal can be informed. That is not to say that we should go soft on crime, just as an informed debate on increasing drug problems should not be described as being soft on drugs. We should not back off from those important and complex issues. This Parliament should address them and come up with adult responses to them. I welcome the involvement of voluntary sector organisations such as Victim Support, Safeguarding Communities Reducing Offending and Barnardo's. Barnardo's has been running a programme for young offenders that has delivered a success rate of 60 per cent non-offending after four years. That is a good hit rate, and I hope that the Justice and Home Affairs Committee will consider that work in its discussions on youth offending. That leads me to \"Her Majesty's Chief Inspector of Prisons for Scotland Report for 1998-1999\", which does not contain such good news for the Executive. On page 21, there is a report of an inspection conducted in May 1998 at Polmont young offenders institution. The facility was 12 per cent overpopulated, and the report states: \"Of more immediate concern, some 25% of the population were lying idle on a daily basis, either because there was not enough work or because there were insufficient places for them on offending behaviour and other programmes. This is a situation which is unacceptable, both in terms of each offender's needs and of the potential long term impact that this is likely to have on communities throughout Scotland when they are released.\" We should not just be preventing youth crime, we should do something once young offenders are in prison, but we are not doing it. Page 20 of the prison report says of Glenochil:\"The facilities in the YOI reflected the lack of investment and the low priority which has been given to YOs generally.\" On pages 15 and 16, on Longriggend, it says of the chief inspector's concerns: \"Paramount amongst these was the lack of a national strategy for young offenders and young remands\". Further on, in relation to drugs, it says:\"On the other hand, we felt that the treatment of drug withdrawal problems was still relatively perfunctory.\" I have lifted those quotations out of the report, but I am sure that members are familiar with it. We must address those issues. We must not concentrate only on keeping people out of prison before they get established on the road to crime; if we put young people into custody, we cannot leave them to rot and learn bad tricks. I ask the Executive to take account of that.", "EditedTextHTML": "Phil Gallie took the words right out of my mouth. We will not have done such people any favours because we are not attacking youth crime in the right manner. Incarcerating people is not the right thing to do; prisons tend to become universities of crime, from which people graduate with better information and tricks than they went in with, and probably with worse drug problems too.

I commend the children's panel system. It may be creaking at the seams now, but it was a great innovation in Scotland in 1971. It endeavoured to take children out of the penal system and to deal holistically—to use another buzz expression—with crime. Families attended and people all around tried to get to the bottom of what was wrong with the children to make them act as they did.

In recent years, however, and particularly under the Conservatives, there has been a shift towards a more punitive disposal of young offenders, which does not work. After the dreadful murder of Jamie Bulger, John Major said that we should condemn more and understand less. How misguided. We can do both; we can condemn more and understand more, and that is the key to the solution.

Phil Gallie should beware making judgments on cases based on what he reads in the papers. He should read the evidence; our sheriffs are not all bampots. We need an informed understanding of juvenile crime so that our disposal can be informed. That is not to say that we should go soft on crime, just as an informed debate on increasing drug problems should not be described as being soft on drugs. We should not back off from those important and complex issues. This Parliament should address them and come up with adult responses to them.

I welcome the involvement of voluntary sector organisations such as Victim Support, Safeguarding Communities Reducing Offending and Barnardo's. Barnardo's has been running a programme for young offenders that has delivered a success rate of 60 per cent non-offending after four years. That is a good hit rate, and I hope that the Justice and Home Affairs Committee will consider that work in its discussions on youth offending.

That leads me to \"Her Majesty's Chief Inspector of Prisons for Scotland Report for 1998-1999\", which does not contain such good news for the Executive. On page 21, there is a report of an inspection conducted in May 1998 at Polmont young offenders institution. The facility was 12 per cent overpopulated, and the report states:

\"Of more immediate concern, some 25% of the population were lying idle on a daily basis, either because

there was not enough work or because there were insufficient places for them on offending behaviour and other programmes. This is a situation which is unacceptable, both in terms of each offender's needs and of the potential long term impact that this is likely to have on communities throughout Scotland when they are released.\"

We should not just be preventing youth crime, we should do something once young offenders are in prison, but we are not doing it.

Page 20 of the prison report says of Glenochil:

\"The facilities in the YOI reflected the lack of investment and the low priority which has been given to YOs generally.\"

On pages 15 and 16, on Longriggend, it says of the chief inspector's concerns:

\"Paramount amongst these was the lack of a national strategy for young offenders and young remands\".

Further on, in relation to drugs, it says:

\"On the other hand, we felt that the treatment of drug withdrawal problems was still relatively perfunctory.\"

I have lifted those quotations out of the report, but I am sure that members are familiar with it. We must address those issues. We must not concentrate only on keeping people out of prison before they get established on the road to crime; if we put young people into custody, we cannot leave them to rot and learn bad tricks. I ask the Executive to take account of that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:01:13.4086808+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1773E197P503C708533", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26870, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 561.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 561.0, "ID": 26870, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hyslop, Fiona", "ID": 1773, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona Hyslop", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona Hyslop (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 679.0, "ContributionID": 708533, "EditedText": "I, too, welcome the support for the voluntary sector that the Executive has shown and the tributes that have been paid by members from all parties to Scotland's many volunteers, most of whom probably do not think of themselves as volunteers. I understand that Wendy Alexander has volunteered—rather than been press-ganged—to come to the SNP conference tomorrow for a fringe meeting debate. I am sure that she will receive a courteous reception. This could be a key and defining debate for the Parliament. It is a signal of intent of how we think we will develop and what our relationship with the voluntary sector will be. George Reid made an important point: we have to see how far the Parliament is prepared to go to take on board the consultative steering group's recommendations. The real test will be this debate's follow-through. Hugh Henry should be aware that the Parliament has not decided its relationship with local government yet. General competency has yet to be agreed, although I appreciate the points that he made. In this debate, we should look at strategy, the operational aspect and the cultural attitude. The compact has to have analysis and I understand that there will be a debate on that at some point. The issue of the civic forum must be raised again. We should explore policy-making issues. We are talking about involving professionals from the voluntary sector in the consultation process. However, on Friday, other Lothian MSPs and I were involved in a question-and-answer session with 40 organisations from the voluntary sector. They told us to think about involving the users of the voluntary sector in the consultation process. They pointed out that the Scottish Office had involved professionals in its consultation on HIV policy, but not the sufferers. I hope that progress can be made in that area. Operationally, we have to address funding. We should recognise that the reason why local authorities are cutting back on voluntary sector funding is cuts in their own funding. In 1996-97, funding dropped from £134 million to £110 million. That is a 20 per cent drop. I would also like the minister to address the point that was made about police checks. Angus MacKay acknowledged that criminal records checking has to be self-funding. Will the Executive give a commitment that it will meet that expense for the voluntary sector, particularly for children's organisations?", "EditedTextHTML": "I, too, welcome the support for the voluntary sector that the Executive has shown and the tributes that have been paid by members from all parties to Scotland's many volunteers, most of whom probably do not think of themselves as volunteers. I understand that Wendy Alexander has volunteered—rather than been press-ganged—to come to the SNP conference tomorrow for a fringe meeting debate. I am sure that she will receive a courteous reception.

This could be a key and defining debate for the Parliament. It is a signal of intent of how we think we will develop and what our relationship with the voluntary sector will be. George Reid made an important point: we have to see how far the Parliament is prepared to go to take on board the consultative steering group's recommendations. The real test will be this debate's follow-through.

Hugh Henry should be aware that the Parliament has not decided its relationship with local government yet. General competency has yet to be agreed, although I appreciate the points that he made.

In this debate, we should look at strategy, the operational aspect and the cultural attitude. The compact has to have analysis and I understand that there will be a debate on that at some point. The issue of the civic forum must be raised again.

We should explore policy-making issues. We are talking about involving professionals from the voluntary sector in the consultation process. However, on Friday, other Lothian MSPs and I were involved in a question-and-answer session with 40 organisations from the voluntary sector. They told us to think about involving the users of the voluntary sector in the consultation process. They pointed out that the Scottish Office had involved professionals in its consultation on HIV policy, but not the sufferers. I hope that progress can be made in that area.

Operationally, we have to address funding. We should recognise that the reason why local authorities are cutting back on voluntary sector funding is cuts in their own funding. In 1996-97, funding dropped from £134 million to £110 million. That is a 20 per cent drop.

I would also like the minister to address the point that was made about police checks. Angus MacKay acknowledged that criminal records checking has to be self-funding. Will the Executive give a commitment that it will meet that expense for the voluntary sector, particularly for children's organisations?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:01:31.7066757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1756E184P464C708511", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26870, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 561.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 561.0, "ID": 26870, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Grahame, Christine", "ID": 1756, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Christine Grahame", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 624.0, "ContributionID": 708511, "EditedText": "I want to focus on the phrase \"promoting social inclusion and encouraging active citizenship\" in Jackie Baillie's motion and on the increasing number of elderly people in society, of which the minister will be well aware. A few statistics, produced by Age Concern, might be useful. In 1997, the population of Scotland was some 5 million plus; that is a falling population. Of that number, more than 1 million were aged over 60; nearly 400,000 of them were in the 75-plus age group and 80,000 were in the 85-plus age group. Those figures are set to rise—by 2016 21 per cent of our population will be over 75. In Scotland now, we have more people of pensionable age than we have schoolchildren, yet we do not have facilities for many of our older people, who live in poverty, in poor housing, with poor pensions, poor access to transport, health problems and so on. Like Keith Raffan, I have a shopping list. I want to draw the minister's attention to Broomhill day centre at Penicuik. I hope that the deputy minister will listen to this example, as the establishment does not cost much. The centre was set up 16 years ago, at which time it operated one day a week as a day centre for the frail and elderly. Now, the centre operates five days a week and has places for 85 individuals in Penicuik and its environs, 25 per cent of whom suffer from varying degrees of dementia, and 75 per cent of whom are simply physically frail. In 1997-98, the centre got £47,950 from the social work department and £10,250 from a one- off health grant. It had to grub around to get another £12,000 from trusts. The centre managed to raise £70,150 in total and expended only £72,000 in running costs, which is peanuts. It works out at a cost per individual for day respite care of £85—that is all. However, it is money well spent, not just for the taxpayer, but in terms of the human happiness brought by keeping people in their community. The centre also provides day relief for the carers who are behind every one of the people who use the centre and who might have fallen into ill health themselves were it not for the simple respite care that the centre provides, along with counselling and the opportunity to meet other carers. However, the centre has to grub around for money again this year and does not even have a health grant available to it. I therefore welcome the three-year programme of funding, but I want something more.", "EditedTextHTML": "I want to focus on the phrase

\"promoting social inclusion and encouraging active citizenship\" in Jackie Baillie's motion and on the increasing number of elderly people in society, of which the minister will be well aware. A few statistics, produced by Age Concern, might be useful. In 1997, the population of Scotland was some 5 million plus; that is a falling population. Of that number, more than 1 million were aged over 60; nearly 400,000 of them were in the 75-plus age group and 80,000 were in the 85-plus age group. Those figures are set to rise—by 2016 21 per cent of our population will be over 75. In Scotland now, we have more people of pensionable age than we have schoolchildren, yet we do not have facilities for many of our older people, who live in poverty, in poor housing, with poor pensions, poor access to transport, health problems and so on.

Like Keith Raffan, I have a shopping list. I want to draw the minister's attention to Broomhill day centre at Penicuik. I hope that the deputy minister will listen to this example, as the establishment does not cost much. The centre was set up 16 years ago, at which time it operated one day a week as a day centre for the frail and elderly. Now, the centre operates five days a week and has places for 85 individuals in Penicuik and its environs, 25 per cent of whom suffer from varying

degrees of dementia, and 75 per cent of whom are simply physically frail.

In 1997-98, the centre got £47,950 from the social work department and £10,250 from a one- off health grant. It had to grub around to get another £12,000 from trusts. The centre managed to raise £70,150 in total and expended only £72,000 in running costs, which is peanuts. It works out at a cost per individual for day respite care of £85—that is all. However, it is money well spent, not just for the taxpayer, but in terms of the human happiness brought by keeping people in their community.

The centre also provides day relief for the carers who are behind every one of the people who use the centre and who might have fallen into ill health themselves were it not for the simple respite care that the centre provides, along with counselling and the opportunity to meet other carers.

However, the centre has to grub around for money again this year and does not even have a health grant available to it. I therefore welcome the three-year programme of funding, but I want something more.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:01:23.8313068+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2133E222P520C708408", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26845, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26846, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "QuestionHeading": "Women Offenders", "QuestionHeadingID": 26854, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 393.0, "DisplayOrder": 393.0, "ID": 26854, "ParentID": 26846 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Matheson, Michael", "ID": 2133, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Matheson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Matheson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 396.0, "ContributionID": 708408, "EditedText": "Is the minister aware that, in the Prison Service annual report, the chief inspector of prisons raised concerns about the number of women who are being placed in prison and that he raised particular concerns about remand prisoners? In light of the fact that the previous justice minister, Mr Henry McLeish, stated that one of his key tasks would be to reduce the number of women being placed in prison, what new action is the Executive prepared to take to ensure that this issue is addressed urgently?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is the minister aware that, in the Prison Service annual report, the chief inspector of prisons raised concerns about the number of women who are being placed in prison and that he raised particular concerns about remand prisoners?

In light of the fact that the previous justice minister, Mr Henry McLeish, stated that one of his key tasks would be to reduce the number of women being placed in prison, what new action is the Executive prepared to take to ensure that this issue is addressed urgently?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:44.0221047+00:00" }, { "ID": "C708224", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Thursday 23 September 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26842, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26842, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 2.0, "ContributionID": 708224, "EditedText": "THE PRESIDING OFFICER opened the meeting at 09:30", "EditedTextHTML": "[THE PRESIDING OFFICER opened the meeting at 09:30]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708225", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 4.0, "ContributionID": 708225, "EditedText": "The first item of business is a debate on motion S1M-163, in the name of Angus MacKay, on crime prevention. There is also an amendment to that motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "The first item of business is a debate on motion S1M-163, in the name of Angus MacKay, on crime prevention. There is also an amendment to that motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C708226", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan (Glasgow) (SSP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 6.0, "ContributionID": 708226, "EditedText": "On a point of order, Presiding Officer. Do you not agree that the lack of members in the chamber is criminal?", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order, Presiding Officer. Do you not agree that the lack of members in the chamber is criminal?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C708231", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 17.0, "ContributionID": 708231, "EditedText": "Can the minister tell me whether anyone in Scotland has died from cannabis consumption?", "EditedTextHTML": "Can the minister tell me whether anyone in Scotland has died from cannabis consumption?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C708235", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Angus MacKay: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 25.0, "ContributionID": 708235, "EditedText": "I am tempted to allow Mr Sheridan to intervene again—this is becoming interesting. I will restate my point. Generally speaking, it is not true that cannabis is used, or misused, in isolation from other drugs. It is true that the pattern of drug abuse in Scotland predominantly and increasingly involves a cocktail of different drugs, which—with the especially pure heroin that has been coming into the country recently—has contributed to the increasing number of drug- related deaths. I cannot comment on the example of Amsterdam, but I am grateful to Mr Gallie for making the point.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am tempted to allow Mr Sheridan to intervene again—this is becoming interesting.

I will restate my point. Generally speaking, it is not true that cannabis is used, or misused, in isolation from other drugs. It is true that the pattern of drug abuse in Scotland predominantly and increasingly involves a cocktail of different drugs, which—with the especially pure heroin that has been coming into the country recently—has contributed to the increasing number of drug- related deaths. I cannot comment on the example of Amsterdam, but I am grateful to Mr Gallie for making the point.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2188E70P92C708236", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harper, Robin", "ID": 2188, "PartyName": "Scottish Green Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Green", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robin Harper", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robin Harper (Lothians) (Green) rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 27.0, "ContributionID": 708236, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708245", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 46.0, "ContributionID": 708245, "EditedText": "Mr Jenkins, the amendment is Mr Gallie's, not mine.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Jenkins, the amendment is Mr Gallie's, not mine.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2044E178P334C708246", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jenkins, Ian", "ID": 2044, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ian Jenkins", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ian Jenkins: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 48.0, "ContributionID": 708246, "EditedText": "I am sorry.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C708247", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 50.0, "ContributionID": 708247, "EditedText": "I disagree with Mr Jenkins's point, because I deliberately left in the part of the motion that says: \"the Parliament notes the continuing need to work together for a safer Scotland\". I left out the remainder of the motion. As worded, my amendment supports community involvement. I welcome the existence of community policemen, who are perhaps a replacement for the bobby on the beat whose role has become redundant as a consequence of the change in criminality. Criminals today are highly mobile and policemen cannot be tied down to sticking to the beat. I recognise the need for co-operation between the police, the procurator's office, the sheriffs, the social workers and the Prison Service. They all have a key role to play in an overall public partnership, but I am concerned about developments in each of those areas, which create an element of doubt and scepticism in the mind of the public. Police numbers have fallen over the past two years and, before that, Government targets on police manning levels were not met by the local authority-controlled police authorities.", "EditedTextHTML": "I disagree with Mr Jenkins's point, because I deliberately left in the part of the motion that says:

\"the Parliament notes the continuing need to work together for a safer Scotland\".

I left out the remainder of the motion. As worded, my amendment supports community involvement.

I welcome the existence of community policemen, who are perhaps a replacement for the bobby on the beat whose role has become redundant as a consequence of the change in criminality. Criminals today are highly mobile and policemen cannot be tied down to sticking to the beat.

I recognise the need for co-operation between the police, the procurator's office, the sheriffs, the social workers and the Prison Service. They all have a key role to play in an overall public partnership, but I am concerned about developments in each of those areas, which create an element of doubt and scepticism in the mind of the public.

Police numbers have fallen over the past two years and, before that, Government targets on police manning levels were not met by the local authority-controlled police authorities.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C708248", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Angus MacKay rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 52.0, "ContributionID": 708248, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C708251", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 58.0, "ContributionID": 708251, "EditedText": "I accept the fact that the Administration has replaced experienced, knowledgeable police officers with clerks and other pen-pushers, although I also accept that some of the civilian appointments have been worth while, such as those of the people who look after closed-circuit television systems. The Tory Government pushed for those systems and I hope that this Administration will press on with them. On the subject of being tough on crime and drugs, I welcome the drugs enforcement agency, but the minister's words today must be challenged. He talked about £4 million being available for setting up that agency and suggested that the agency would not fill the new roles with policemen who are currently in position. Right out of the air, we will pick up 200 highly experienced and knowledgeable police officers and that £4 million will pay for them. A quick calculation shows that that equates to paying those officers a salary of £20,000 a year. A police constable's salary is around £18,000 or £19,000, so I would be delighted if the minister explained how the £4 million that he identified will meet the cost of those 200 police officers.", "EditedTextHTML": "I accept the fact that the Administration has replaced experienced, knowledgeable police officers with clerks and other pen-pushers, although I also accept that some of the civilian appointments have been worth while, such as those of the people who look after closed-circuit television systems. The Tory Government pushed for those systems and I hope that this Administration will press on with them.

On the subject of being tough on crime and drugs, I welcome the drugs enforcement agency, but the minister's words today must be challenged. He talked about £4 million being available for setting up that agency and suggested that the agency would not fill the new roles with policemen who are currently in position. Right out of the air, we will pick up 200 highly experienced and knowledgeable police officers and that £4 million will pay for them. A quick calculation shows that that equates to paying those officers a salary of £20,000 a year. A police constable's salary is around £18,000 or £19,000, so I would be delighted if the minister explained how the £4 million that he identified will meet the cost of those 200 police officers.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C708252", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Angus MacKay: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 60.0, "ContributionID": 708252, "EditedText": "I reiterate my earlier comments. I said approximately £4 million, because, in order to ensure that we can properly resource the additional 200 officers, the full costings have still to be finalised. Further, I made it absolutely clear that those 200 officers would be additional and new. It would be ludicrous to suggest that 200 officers could be created out of thin air; an appropriate strategy for training and developing the additional officers, who will be entering the central drugs enforcement agency and local constabularies, will be required. That will be a matter for discussion with chief constables and the head of the new agency.", "EditedTextHTML": "I reiterate my earlier comments. I said approximately £4 million, because, in order to ensure that we can properly resource the additional 200 officers, the full costings have still to be finalised. Further, I made it absolutely clear that those 200 officers would be additional and new. It would be ludicrous to suggest that 200 officers could be created out of thin air; an appropriate strategy for training and developing the additional officers, who will be entering the central drugs enforcement agency and local constabularies, will be required. That will be a matter for discussion with chief constables and the head of the new agency.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C708253", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 62.0, "ContributionID": 708253, "EditedText": "I accept that perhaps the minister has got his sums wrong. I will do a quick calculation for him. If we are talking about 200 officers, I will use an average salary—bearing in mind the various ranks—of £40,000 a year. That means that the minister will have to double his figure from £4 million to £8 million. We can guarantee that the required back-up, in terms of civilians and equipment, will cost another £4 million. The minister's sum has tripled in the space of a few minutes; that smacks somewhat of the Executive's plans for the new Scottish Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "I accept that perhaps the minister has got his sums wrong. I will do a quick calculation for him. If we are talking about 200 officers, I will use an average salary—bearing in mind the various ranks—of £40,000 a year. That means that the minister will have to double his figure from £4 million to £8 million. We can guarantee that the required back-up, in terms of civilians and equipment, will cost another £4 million. The minister's sum has tripled in the space of a few minutes; that smacks somewhat of the Executive's plans for the new Scottish Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C708254", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Angus MacKay: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 64.0, "ContributionID": 708254, "EditedText": "Those are precisely the economics that got the previous Conservative Government into such hot water in the first place.", "EditedTextHTML": "Those are precisely the economics that got the previous Conservative Government into such hot water in the first place.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C708255", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 66.0, "ContributionID": 708255, "EditedText": "The minister has already given an adequate demonstration of hogwash economics. Four million pounds will go nowhere towards providing the type of service that he has promised the Scottish public. The police forces face other burdens. New legislation covering sex offenders and family protection is in place and today the minister mentioned a new act on racial harassment. That all adds to the burden on the police, yet the minister is responsible for a reduction in police numbers. From police sources, I have an estimate that the police service budget faces a shortfall of some £9 million this year. Given that 87 per cent of the police budget goes on manpower, that gives rise to great cause for concern. The burden on the police does not stop with the number of policemen on the beat or available to the chief constables. A heck of a lot of police hours are wasted in the court system, on waiting for trials to come up and on trials that never take place. The previous Government attempted to deal with that problem by introducing a diet system, but to be truthful, that system does not seem to be working. Perhaps the minister could address that issue in the longer term. On youth crime, I recall a situation in Ayr some years ago when 700 reported crimes were attributed to 15 young people. The frustration of the police was immense; they pulled the youngsters in and got to the root of a crime, then the youngsters were turned back out to offend again. We may wonder whether such situations are a thing of the past. I was advised by one force that 36 young persons committed 921 crimes; the value of the stolen property associated with those crimes was more than £250,000. Other forces have similar stories to tell. We are not doing the youngsters any favours. One offender had committed 87 offences before he was 16; since then, in different sheriff courts, he has been convicted on a further 18 occasions. He is serving a six-month prison sentence, having already served a similar sentence. He had appeared before children's panels on 10 previous occasions; it appears that such panels are simply not working for persistent offenders. I draw the minister's attention to that problem and call for an urgent review of the youth justice system. Victims' interests must be represented as well as the opinions of those tasked with rehabilitation.", "EditedTextHTML": "The minister has already given an adequate demonstration of hogwash economics. Four million pounds will go nowhere towards providing the type of service that he has promised the Scottish public.

The police forces face other burdens. New legislation covering sex offenders and family protection is in place and today the minister mentioned a new act on racial harassment. That all adds to the burden on the police, yet the minister is responsible for a reduction in police numbers. From police sources, I have an estimate that the police service budget faces a shortfall of some £9 million this year. Given that 87 per cent of the police budget goes on manpower, that gives rise to great cause for concern.

The burden on the police does not stop with the number of policemen on the beat or available to the chief constables. A heck of a lot of police hours are wasted in the court system, on waiting for trials to come up and on trials that never take place. The previous Government attempted to deal with that problem by introducing a diet system, but to be truthful, that system does not seem to be working. Perhaps the minister could address that issue in the longer term.

On youth crime, I recall a situation in Ayr some years ago when 700 reported crimes were attributed to 15 young people. The frustration of the police was immense; they pulled the youngsters in and got to the root of a crime, then the youngsters were turned back out to offend again. We may wonder whether such situations are a thing of the past. I was advised by one force that 36 young persons committed 921 crimes; the value of the stolen property associated with those crimes was more than £250,000. Other forces have similar stories to tell.

We are not doing the youngsters any favours. One offender had committed 87 offences before he was 16; since then, in different sheriff courts, he has been convicted on a further 18 occasions. He is serving a six-month prison sentence, having already served a similar sentence. He had appeared before children's panels on 10 previous occasions; it appears that such panels are simply not working for persistent offenders. I draw the minister's attention to that problem and call for an urgent review of the youth justice system. Victims' interests must be represented as well as the

opinions of those tasked with rehabilitation.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2188E70P92C708262", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harper, Robin", "ID": 2188, "PartyName": "Scottish Green Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Green", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robin Harper", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robin Harper: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 80.0, "ContributionID": 708262, "EditedText": "I have two questions. Does not Mr Gallie agree that, given the many thousands of young people who are dealt with successfully in the children's panel system, it is wrong to quote one instance, such as the one that he mentioned, to condemn the entire system? Secondly, in Scotland, 30 per cent of young people under the age of 15 have tried cannabis. Seventy-five per cent have experimented with alcohol. Which is the biggest problem? Which drug leads to which?", "EditedTextHTML": "I have two questions. Does not Mr Gallie agree that, given the many thousands of young people who are dealt with successfully in the children's panel system, it is wrong to quote one instance, such as the one that he mentioned, to condemn the entire system? Secondly, in Scotland, 30 per cent of young people under the age of 15 have tried cannabis. Seventy-five per cent have experimented with alcohol. Which is the biggest problem? Which drug leads to which?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C708263", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 82.0, "ContributionID": 708263, "EditedText": "I would argue that cannabis is the bigger problem, because it leads to other things. If we legalise cannabis, it will give added impetus to the attraction of trying new and perhaps dangerous drugs. I was careful in my wording of the point about children's hearings—they are not doing persistent young offenders any good. I recognise that children's panels do a good job for many youngsters by sending a warning shot across their bows. I see that Mr Harper is nodding, so it appears that he accepts that. The minister said today that there had been something like a 3 or 4 per cent increase in crimes such as housebreaking. However, the figures that I have show that the number of offences involving offensive weapons has risen by 13 per cent and that assault with intent to rape is up by 12 per cent, non-sexual violent crime is up by 10 per cent, serious assault is up by 9 per cent, robbery is up by 9 per cent and sexual assaults are up by 9 per cent. Those figures are totally different from those presented by the minister. Where did he get his facts? I can justify where mine came from. To understand the public's perception of justice, it is essential to examine the trends in our courts. We must consider examples such as the one involving two youths who beat up and killed a youth who was a neighbour. What happened to them? They got 300 hours' community service. That hardly seems to be justice. I have now learned that the two youths are appealing against the severity of their sentence. The minister should go away and tell his friend and fellow member of the Executive, the Lord Advocate, to ensure that the Crown appeals against the leniency of that sentence. There was also the case of the grandmother who used her granddaughter to attempt to smuggle drugs into Cornton Vale prison. Her solicitor's advice was that she could expect her sentence to be about 18 months. What did she get? She got a suspended sentence and was sent back to her granddaughter. What future does that give her granddaughter, if her grandmother's example is anything to go by? Drugs in prisons are a curse. The inspector of prisons' recent report demonstrated that the major problem in prisons is drug abuse. How can that be? Why can we not achieve drug-free prisons? If we cannot achieve a drug-free environment there, how can we achieve it in society at large—in our schools, for example? It is just not on. I recognise the problem of drugs being taken into prisons. Perhaps we need to take a harder line. We need to consider prison visits, for example, and decide whether every prisoner should be entitled to open visits. Perhaps they should be earned—a reward for prisoners. Without a doubt, visiting time is when drugs enter prisons and are handed over. The Executive has a responsibility to keep everyone in prison safe and to help prisoners to mend their ways, so that they can return to society in the long term.", "EditedTextHTML": "I would argue that cannabis is the bigger problem, because it leads to other things. If we legalise cannabis, it will give added impetus to the attraction of trying new and perhaps dangerous drugs.

I was careful in my wording of the point about children's hearings—they are not doing persistent young offenders any good. I recognise that children's panels do a good job for many youngsters by sending a warning shot across their bows. I see that Mr Harper is nodding, so it appears that he accepts that.

The minister said today that there had been something like a 3 or 4 per cent increase in crimes such as housebreaking. However, the figures that I have show that the number of offences involving offensive weapons has risen by 13 per cent and that assault with intent to rape is up by 12 per cent, non-sexual violent crime is up by 10 per cent, serious assault is up by 9 per cent, robbery is up by 9 per cent and sexual assaults are up by 9 per cent. Those figures are totally different from those presented by the minister. Where did he get his facts? I can justify where mine came from.

To understand the public's perception of justice, it is essential to examine the trends in our courts. We must consider examples such as the one involving two youths who beat up and killed a youth who was a neighbour. What happened to them? They got 300 hours' community service. That hardly seems to be justice. I have now learned that the two youths are appealing against the severity of their sentence. The minister should go away and tell his friend and fellow member of the Executive, the Lord Advocate, to ensure that the Crown appeals against the leniency of that sentence.

There was also the case of the grandmother who used her granddaughter to attempt to smuggle drugs into Cornton Vale prison. Her solicitor's advice was that she could expect her sentence to be about 18 months. What did she get? She got a suspended sentence and was sent back to her granddaughter. What future does that give her granddaughter, if her grandmother's example is anything to go by?

Drugs in prisons are a curse. The inspector of prisons' recent report demonstrated that the major problem in prisons is drug abuse. How can that be? Why can we not achieve drug-free prisons? If we cannot achieve a drug-free environment there, how can we achieve it in society at large—in our schools, for example? It is just not on.

I recognise the problem of drugs being taken into prisons. Perhaps we need to take a harder line. We need to consider prison visits, for example, and decide whether every prisoner should be entitled to open visits. Perhaps they should be earned—a reward for prisoners. Without a doubt, visiting time is when drugs enter prisons and are handed over. The Executive has a responsibility to keep everyone in prison safe and to help prisoners to mend their ways, so that they can return to society in the long term.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C708265", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 86.0, "ContributionID": 708265, "EditedText": "It delights me to be able to agree on this rare occasion almost whole-heartedly with Mr Raffan's comments. I, too, visited Saughton prison some years ago and saw new drugs rehabilitation programmes being introduced. The Justice and Home Affairs Committee should perhaps visit the prison to examine the ways in which drugs problems are being treated, as Mr Raffan appears to suggest that the high hopes of some four or five years ago have not been met.", "EditedTextHTML": "It delights me to be able to agree on this rare occasion almost whole-heartedly with Mr Raffan's comments. I, too, visited Saughton prison some years ago and saw new drugs rehabilitation programmes being introduced. The Justice and Home Affairs Committee should perhaps visit the prison to examine the ways in which drugs problems are being treated, as Mr Raffan appears to suggest that the high hopes of some four or five years ago have not been met.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C708266", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 88.0, "ContributionID": 708266, "EditedText": "A couple of members have talked about visiting Saughton, so I thought that I would come to my feet, as I visited the prison myself a number of years ago. Laughter. Seriously though, is Mr Gallie aware that the main problem with the rise in the drugs problem in our prisons, according to the inspector of prisons' report, is the increase in the incidence of heroin abuse? Would he care to comment on why that is? Why has drug consumption moved from softer drugs to heroin?", "EditedTextHTML": "A couple of members have talked about visiting Saughton, so I thought that I would come to my feet, as I visited the prison myself a number of years ago. [Laughter.]

Seriously though, is Mr Gallie aware that the main problem with the rise in the drugs problem in our prisons, according to the inspector of prisons' report, is the increase in the incidence of heroin abuse? Would he care to comment on why that is? Why has drug consumption moved from softer drugs to heroin?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C708270", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 96.0, "ContributionID": 708270, "EditedText": "Mr Gallie is wrong on both counts, but sometimes he is ignorant of some of the arguments in this chamber. I was not imprisoned for failing to pay my dues. I was in prison for breaching a court order that prevented me from stopping a warrant sale. Mr Gallie will be pleased to know, however, that the warrant sale did not take place, as we did prevent it. Mr Gallie did not answer my question correctly. If he were aware of the detailed report of the inspector of prisons, he would know that the reason why heroin is abused more in prisons today is that it is not as detectable in the blood long term, whereas cannabis remains in the blood for several months. Prisoners are therefore moving from consuming cannabis to consuming heroin. That is the problem with drugs testing in our prisons.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Gallie is wrong on both counts, but sometimes he is ignorant of some of the arguments in this chamber. I was not imprisoned for failing to pay my dues. I was in prison for breaching a court order that prevented me from stopping a warrant sale. Mr Gallie will be pleased to know, however, that the warrant sale did not take place, as we did prevent it.

Mr Gallie did not answer my question correctly. If he were aware of the detailed report of the inspector of prisons, he would know that the reason why heroin is abused more in prisons today is that it is not as detectable in the blood long term, whereas cannabis remains in the blood for several months. Prisoners are therefore moving from consuming cannabis to consuming heroin. That is the problem with drugs testing in our prisons.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C708274", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ms Patricia Ferguson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 104.0, "ContributionID": 708274, "EditedText": "Comments should be made through the chair, please. Will you wind up now?", "EditedTextHTML": "Comments should be made through the chair, please. Will you wind up now?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "C708277", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 110.0, "ContributionID": 708277, "EditedText": "Wind up.", "EditedTextHTML": "Wind up.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C708281", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 118.0, "ContributionID": 708281, "EditedText": "Mr Gallie, will you please come to a close now?", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Gallie, will you please come to a close now?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C708282", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 120.0, "ContributionID": 708282, "EditedText": "I also wish to mention trivia in our courts—trivia that saw the lack of a birth certificate allow someone who had sex with a minor to escape scot-free and that allowed someone who carried heroin within his body to escape scot-free because of a wrong signature on a warrant. I look to the Crown Office and to the way in which summary courts are used—", "EditedTextHTML": "I also wish to mention trivia in our courts—trivia that saw the lack of a birth certificate allow someone who had sex with a minor to escape scot-free and that allowed someone who carried heroin within his body to escape scot-free because of a wrong signature on a warrant. I look to the Crown Office and to the way in which summary courts are used—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1863E284P532C708291", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Cunningham, Roseanna", "ID": 1863, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Perth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Roseanna Cunningham", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Roseanna Cunningham: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 139.0, "ContributionID": 708291, "EditedText": "We are all trying to find the best solution for what we recognise is a serious problem. It will help if we are as constructive as possible about projected solutions. Community safety is about tying together the various strands of public concern. It is about building confidence in the systems that we put in place for protection and punishment. It is as much about local initiatives to tackle vandalism through education as it is about grand strategies—such as the zero tolerance campaign—that affect the quality of life of most citizens. I have highlighted some local initiatives that have been successful on a small scale, but which could be extended nationwide. They show the effectiveness of co-ordination of effort and the importance of dialogue. Today's debate and the community safety initiative that is being pursued by the Executive are only small parts of that larger dialogue. As I said at the start of my speech, the larger dialogue is about giving people back their hope and belief in their futures. Only an end to deprivation and poverty can bring that.", "EditedTextHTML": "We are all trying to find the best solution for what we recognise is a serious problem. It will help if we are as constructive as possible about projected solutions.

Community safety is about tying together the various strands of public concern. It is about building confidence in the systems that we put in place for protection and punishment. It is as much about local initiatives to tackle vandalism through education as it is about grand strategies—such as the zero tolerance campaign—that affect the quality of life of most citizens.

I have highlighted some local initiatives that have been successful on a small scale, but which could be extended nationwide. They show the effectiveness of co-ordination of effort and the importance of dialogue.

Today's debate and the community safety initiative that is being pursued by the Executive are only small parts of that larger dialogue. As I said at the start of my speech, the larger dialogue is about giving people back their hope and belief in their futures. Only an end to deprivation and poverty can bring that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1863E284P532C708285", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Cunningham, Roseanna", "ID": 1863, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Perth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Roseanna Cunningham", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Roseanna Cunningham (Perth) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 127.0, "ContributionID": 708285, "EditedText": "It is rather unfortunate to have to follow such a bizarre speech. I am tempted to suggest that we should treat such contributions as little more than entertainment. Frankly, there is very little practical value to be gained from that sort of rambling. The SNP recognises that there is little to object to in the Executive's motion and my comments are predicated on a basis of general support for community initiatives. Anything that helps to bolster communities is to be welcomed. In truth, it could—and probably will—be argued that it is the very destruction of communities that, over the years, has led to the near breakdown of civil society in some parts of Scotland's urban areas. The previous Government deliberately brought about much of that destruction. Its ideological obsessions led it to disregard totally the enormous benefits to be gained from thriving local communities. I note with interest that the Tory amendment removes all mention of community from the Executive's motion—that seems rather apt, given the Conservative party's history in respect of community. A number of specific crime prevention ideas have already been canvassed and no doubt more will be raised today. However, we should not lose sight of the fact that the most effective crime prevention methods involve providing jobs and futures for people who may feel that they are no longer part of society. It has become fashionable to call them the socially excluded. The more old- fashioned of us may prefer to use the simple term poverty—economic poverty and social poverty. In my view, until we tackle poverty we will fail to achieve the real success that, presumably, we all want. This is not the first debate on this subject in which I have been involved. I was involved in a similar debate in the Scottish Grand Committee on 16 June 1998, which dealt with the prevention of crime and—fascinatingly—the then justice minister, Henry McLeish, used the opportunity to announce the publication of \"a strategy for action on community safety\".The strategy was\"designed to improve community safety in Scotland through partnerships between public, private and voluntary bodies.\" It was to encourage\"local authorities to take the lead in forming local partnerships, involving the police and other bodies who can influence community safety.\" During the debate, Mr McLeish said that the strategy did not \"say exactly what should be done. That must be decided locally, in the light of local needs and opportunities, and as part of other local policies.\" It is fair to say that the subject that we are discussing today does not involve anything startlingly new. It does, however, give rise to some pertinent questions, particularly in the light of another comment made by the then justice minister. He expected \"to see results from these partnerships we want real action, not planning documents.\"—Official Report, House of Commons, Scottish Grand Committee, 16 June 1998; c 34. In fairness, I suppose that a guidance document is not a planning document. However, in the spirit of the assertions made by the then justice minister, I want to make a few inquiries of the Deputy Minister for Justice—in particular about the community safety partnerships that are mentioned in his motion. He may be able to answer some of my questions today—I will be happy for him to write to me separately if he does not have all the information to hand. Can the minister give members an idea of the extent of uptake by various local bodies in response to the strategy, which is now more than a year old? Is there variation from area to area? If there is, are there any patterns to that variation? It would be reasonable to infer from the earlier safer Scotland document and this more recent publication that more emphasis has been placed on the perceived problems of urban communities, as opposed to rural communities, regarding access to resources and facilities for partnership projects. Is the emphasis a direct result of a variation in response from the start? If it is not, is there not a danger that rural communities will miss out? Will the minister ensure that uptake of the strategy is monitored? On the basis of initial feedback which, I presume, has been undertaken in the past year, can an estimate be made of the likely long-term effectiveness of the scheme? How is it intended that that effectiveness will be monitored? What proposals are there to ensure that we receive regular updates on a number of factors, so that we are told how effective the strategy is? I, too, have questions on policing. I hope that Iwill put my questions more constructively than have some others. Will the success or failure of individual community safety partnerships have an effect on the level of policing in a given area? On a point of more general concern to those of us who have to deal with rural communities in our constituencies, will the minister—today or in the future—make a statement on rural police provision? That was a concern at last year's Scottish Grand Committee debate. I suspect that it is still a concern, even among the minister's back- bench members who represent rural communities. We all agree that public confidence is vital. There is little doubt that the public wants more bobbies on the beat. Manned police stations and regular patrols, by foot or car—although most people prefer police to be on foot—give a feeling that help is close at hand and that the police are acting as a deterrent to crime. Fear of crime is debilitating and often leads to people being trapped in their homes after dark, afraid to live normal lives. Visible policing helps to reduce that fear considerably. One of the most unfortunate trends in policing, which many members will recognise, is the reduction in visible policing and the reduction in manned police stations in rural areas. Most people accept that there is an incongruity between public perception and what the police claim is the reality of how they have to operate in the modern day. Public confidence is paramount in such matters, and if that means playing a little to perception, I would say, so be it. The reduction in manned rural police stations has caused great concern in my constituency and, I suspect, throughout other rural areas, and in the commuter villages of the central belt. Few issues cause more concern, or bring people to constituency surgeries faster, than a threat to a local police station. In last year's debate, I mentioned that Dumfries and Galloway Constabulary had used mobile police stations to ensure a regular presence in many smaller villages and hamlets. I understand that the initiative proved immensely popular. The mobile stations apparently made about 80 visits each month to smaller communities. Tayside Police now has a limited ability to do something similar, which it has tried in some of the housing estates in Perth. It would be useful if the minister could address that sort of flexibility for the police as it is well worth considering implementing the initiative throughout Scotland. It would encourage public confidence and remove some of the fears felt by communities left without a permanent police presence. Although I have focused more closely on the challenge of rural policing, I know that most of what I say could apply fairly well to urban communities. I expect that other members may wish to pick on this point. Closed-circuit television is another important factor in crime prevention and community safety. Applications for CCTV are increasing. I do not know the current total of applications, but I dare say that it is considerable and that many have been submitted at the instigation of communities. My argument is that the increase in demand for CCTV has been fuelled partly by the public's desire for what they regard as a second-best option to the bobby on the beat. I feel sure that if there were a more widespread police presence, the demand for CCTV would not be so great. Much of the increase in CCTV in smaller towns and villages has come about because of the reduced police presence. In most cases, CCTV has been a success—I think we all agree on that. Crime rates are generally lower, although there are occasional signs of criticism, and public confidence is higher. Yet again, however, I very gently push for a consideration of the regulation of the spread and use of CCTV. The rapid growth in use is taking place in a legislation-free zone and the undoubted effectiveness of the technology should not relieve us of our responsibility to ensure that there is minimal abuse and misuse of CCTV. There are no real safeguards, and there is no real monitoring of the extent of its use. Although local authorities and the police may make applications, it is clear that, in private areas, CCTV is going in almost unmonitored. The police and local authorities are unlikely to object to regulatory measures. They might broadly welcome them, because they would deal with some of the cowboys who are moving into the market. Community safety and crime prevention must cover security in the home as well as on the streets. People have the right to feel safe in their own homes. Unfortunately, for women in particular, that right can be nothing other than a fond hope. I do not want to trespass on the Justice and Home Affairs Committee's current work, but I want to welcome initiatives such as those pioneered by Fife Council, to establish specific domestic violence units which combine the expertise of the police and social work departments and deal exclusively with domestic violence. The most recent figures show a higher number of prosecutions for domestic violence in the region and help to create a fuller picture of its frequency and extent. Much domestic violence is unreported and sometimes hospital admissions are the only real measure of its incidence.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is rather unfortunate to have to follow such a bizarre speech. I am tempted to suggest that we should treat such contributions as little more than entertainment. Frankly, there is very little practical value to be gained from that sort of rambling.

The SNP recognises that there is little to object to in the Executive's motion and my comments are predicated on a basis of general support for community initiatives. Anything that helps to bolster communities is to be welcomed. In truth, it could—and probably will—be argued that it is the very destruction of communities that, over the years, has led to the near breakdown of civil society in some parts of Scotland's urban areas.

The previous Government deliberately brought about much of that destruction. Its ideological obsessions led it to disregard totally the enormous benefits to be gained from thriving local communities. I note with interest that the Tory amendment removes all mention of community from the Executive's motion—that seems rather apt, given the Conservative party's history in respect of community.

A number of specific crime prevention ideas have already been canvassed and no doubt more will be raised today. However, we should not lose sight of the fact that the most effective crime prevention methods involve providing jobs and futures for people who may feel that they are no longer part of society. It has become fashionable to call them the socially excluded. The more old- fashioned of us may prefer to use the simple term poverty—economic poverty and social poverty. In my view, until we tackle poverty we will fail to achieve the real success that, presumably, we all want.

This is not the first debate on this subject in which I have been involved. I was involved in a similar debate in the Scottish Grand Committee on 16 June 1998, which dealt with the prevention of crime and—fascinatingly—the then justice minister, Henry McLeish, used the opportunity to announce the publication of

\"a strategy for action on community safety\".

The strategy was

\"designed to improve community safety in Scotland through partnerships between public, private and voluntary bodies.\"

It was to encourage

\"local authorities to take the lead in forming local partnerships, involving the police and other bodies who can influence community safety.\"

During the debate, Mr McLeish said that the strategy did not

\"say exactly what should be done. That must be decided locally, in the light of local needs and opportunities, and as part of other local policies.\"

It is fair to say that the subject that we are discussing today does not involve anything startlingly new. It does, however, give rise to some pertinent questions, particularly in the light of another comment made by the then justice minister. He expected

\"to see results from these partnerships we want real action, not planning documents.\"—[Official Report, House of Commons, Scottish Grand Committee, 16 June 1998; c 34.]

In fairness, I suppose that a guidance document is not a planning document. However, in the spirit of the assertions made by the then justice minister, I want to make a few inquiries of the Deputy Minister for Justice—in particular about the community safety partnerships that are mentioned in his motion. He may be able to answer some of my questions today—I will be happy for him to write to me separately if he does not have all the information to hand.

Can the minister give members an idea of the extent of uptake by various local bodies in response to the strategy, which is now more than a year old? Is there variation from area to area? If there is, are there any patterns to that variation? It would be reasonable to infer from the earlier safer Scotland document and this more recent publication that more emphasis has been placed on the perceived problems of urban communities, as opposed to rural communities, regarding access to resources and facilities for partnership projects. Is the emphasis a direct result of a variation in response from the start? If it is not, is there not a danger that rural communities will miss out? Will the minister ensure that uptake of the strategy is monitored?

On the basis of initial feedback which, I presume, has been undertaken in the past year, can an estimate be made of the likely long-term effectiveness of the scheme? How is it intended that that effectiveness will be monitored? What proposals are there to ensure that we receive regular updates on a number of factors, so that we are told how effective the strategy is?

I, too, have questions on policing. I hope that I

will put my questions more constructively than have some others. Will the success or failure of individual community safety partnerships have an effect on the level of policing in a given area? On a point of more general concern to those of us who have to deal with rural communities in our constituencies, will the minister—today or in the future—make a statement on rural police provision? That was a concern at last year's Scottish Grand Committee debate. I suspect that it is still a concern, even among the minister's back- bench members who represent rural communities.

We all agree that public confidence is vital. There is little doubt that the public wants more bobbies on the beat. Manned police stations and regular patrols, by foot or car—although most people prefer police to be on foot—give a feeling that help is close at hand and that the police are acting as a deterrent to crime. Fear of crime is debilitating and often leads to people being trapped in their homes after dark, afraid to live normal lives. Visible policing helps to reduce that fear considerably. One of the most unfortunate trends in policing, which many members will recognise, is the reduction in visible policing and the reduction in manned police stations in rural areas.

Most people accept that there is an incongruity between public perception and what the police claim is the reality of how they have to operate in the modern day. Public confidence is paramount in such matters, and if that means playing a little to perception, I would say, so be it. The reduction in manned rural police stations has caused great concern in my constituency and, I suspect, throughout other rural areas, and in the commuter villages of the central belt. Few issues cause more concern, or bring people to constituency surgeries faster, than a threat to a local police station.

In last year's debate, I mentioned that Dumfries and Galloway Constabulary had used mobile police stations to ensure a regular presence in many smaller villages and hamlets. I understand that the initiative proved immensely popular. The mobile stations apparently made about 80 visits each month to smaller communities.

Tayside Police now has a limited ability to do something similar, which it has tried in some of the housing estates in Perth. It would be useful if the minister could address that sort of flexibility for the police as it is well worth considering implementing the initiative throughout Scotland. It would encourage public confidence and remove some of the fears felt by communities left without a permanent police presence. Although I have focused more closely on the challenge of rural policing, I know that most of what I say could apply fairly well to urban communities. I expect that other members may wish to pick on this point.

Closed-circuit television is another important factor in crime prevention and community safety. Applications for CCTV are increasing. I do not know the current total of applications, but I dare say that it is considerable and that many have been submitted at the instigation of communities. My argument is that the increase in demand for CCTV has been fuelled partly by the public's desire for what they regard as a second-best option to the bobby on the beat.

I feel sure that if there were a more widespread police presence, the demand for CCTV would not be so great. Much of the increase in CCTV in smaller towns and villages has come about because of the reduced police presence. In most cases, CCTV has been a success—I think we all agree on that. Crime rates are generally lower, although there are occasional signs of criticism, and public confidence is higher.

Yet again, however, I very gently push for a consideration of the regulation of the spread and use of CCTV. The rapid growth in use is taking place in a legislation-free zone and the undoubted effectiveness of the technology should not relieve us of our responsibility to ensure that there is minimal abuse and misuse of CCTV. There are no real safeguards, and there is no real monitoring of the extent of its use. Although local authorities and the police may make applications, it is clear that, in private areas, CCTV is going in almost unmonitored. The police and local authorities are unlikely to object to regulatory measures. They might broadly welcome them, because they would deal with some of the cowboys who are moving into the market.

Community safety and crime prevention must cover security in the home as well as on the streets. People have the right to feel safe in their own homes. Unfortunately, for women in particular, that right can be nothing other than a fond hope. I do not want to trespass on the Justice and Home Affairs Committee's current work, but I want to welcome initiatives such as those pioneered by Fife Council, to establish specific domestic violence units which combine the expertise of the police and social work departments and deal exclusively with domestic violence. The most recent figures show a higher number of prosecutions for domestic violence in the region and help to create a fuller picture of its frequency and extent. Much domestic violence is unreported and sometimes hospital admissions are the only real measure of its incidence.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1863E284P532C708289", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Cunningham, Roseanna", "ID": 1863, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Perth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Roseanna Cunningham", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Roseanna Cunningham: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 135.0, "ContributionID": 708289, "EditedText": "I wholeheartedly agree. The drugs courts idea is to remove offenders from the direct road to prison at the point where a prison sentence is likely to be the next one to be handed down. Many drug users appear in courts and are not charged specifically with drug crime. They appear for shoplifting, theft and other offences. The offenders for whom the real problem is drugs need to be identified and fast-tracked out of prison. For those who end up with sentences of four, six or nine months, prison is the least effective place in which to be treated. There are problems to be overcome in the treatment of drug users and the management of the rehabilitation process. The minister wishes to respond.", "EditedTextHTML": "I wholeheartedly agree. The drugs courts idea is to remove offenders from the direct road to prison at the point where a prison sentence is likely to be the next one to be handed down. Many drug users appear in courts and are not charged specifically with drug crime. They appear for shoplifting, theft and other offences. The offenders for whom the real problem is drugs need to be identified and fast-tracked out of prison. For those who end up with sentences of four, six or nine months, prison is the least effective place in which to be treated. There are problems to be overcome in the treatment of drug users and the management of the rehabilitation process. The minister wishes to respond.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1990E181P340C708295", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robson, Euan", "ID": 1990, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Roxburgh and Berwickshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Euan Robson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Euan Robson (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 149.0, "ContributionID": 708295, "EditedText": "This is an important debate and it is a pity that there are distractions in Harrogate and Inverness, but I welcome the fact that it is taking place and I welcome the Executive's motion. There is widespread agreement that the best way to fight crime is to tackle its causes in the community. We must concentrate on detection and prevention and keep police services up to strength. I note that numbers have declined by about 130 since September 1997. That is a matter that I would like the minister to address in his winding-up speech. We must, of course, use new technology to cut bureaucracy and free police officers' time for other duties. We must ensure that every rural community has a named community officer. That is already happening in many communities. I attended a rural agricultural show on the border between Scottish Borders and Dumfries and Galloway; the community officer was there. It is important that there is a visible police presence in rural areas. There should also be a named officer for each beat in urban areas. That is an important objective. I agree with Roseanna Cunningham that one of the biggest causes of concern over policing is when a manned station closes, or when a station is not manned for a sufficient number of hours. Nothing undermines people's confidence more than telephoning their local station, only to be routed somewhere else because there is no one there. That issue needs to be tackled. The Liberal Democrats want to retain the present number of police forces in Scotland, but we must identify more opportunities for joint operations and for procuring equipment and services across the English-Scottish border. Greater co-operation with constabularies in the north of England would assist crime prevention in the south of Scotland. We back the use of CCTV with appropriate safeguards for civil liberties. We should also encourage the use of better home security systems. There are perhaps ways of building on the home energy efficiency scheme, for example by asking project co-ordinators to address the provision of home security with the aid of grants. Better street lighting in some communities would be valuable. It is the cause of some regret that, in recent years, local authorities have had to cut the provision of street lighting in certain areas or have not maintained it to the highest standard. The police have achieved some success through targeting specific types of crime. In the Scottish Borders, they have made special efforts in several areas, particularly house-breaking, which have yielded significant dividends. There should be further targeting. The biggest form of crime prevention is detection. Detection ensures that the criminal does not want to commit crime. It is the key element in policing. In the Scottish Borders, the detection rate has risen to 53 per cent—a remarkable achievement—but still only a bare majority of crimes are reported. As a senior police officer said to me recently, the police cannot do it all on their own; they need public assistance. Crime prevention should be the duty of every citizen. I sincerely hope that we never become a society that is prepared to pass by on the other side. Working in partnership with the police is extremely important, and we should encourage greater participation in organisations such as children's panels. It is a cause of some concern that, locally, a significant advertising campaign is being used to try to recruit people to children's panels. We should look to better means of encouraging participation in such organisations. We must encourage more reporting of crime and ensure that witnesses feel safe when they are giving evidence. We do not pay sufficient attention to their safety and confidence when giving evidence. We should perhaps develop the role of the police family liaison officer to assist people to come to terms with reporting and giving evidence on crime. The sheriff court users' group of the Scottish Consumer Council has, for a long time, advocated that there should be assistance in courts for witnesses—some form of guide or court assistant to help people through the process of giving evidence. For some people, giving evidence is the first occasion on which they have been in court. Crime prevention must start early. That fact was brought home to me recently, when I was reading statistics on domestic violence. Out of 2,000 young people between the ages of 14 and 21, half the boys and a third of the girls who were interviewed believed that in some circumstances it is acceptable for a man to hit a woman. If that is what some young people believe, it shows the amount of work that we need to do. That is why the community safety forums are particularly valuable: they bring agencies together and they make the best use of the available expertise. A community safety forum in the Borders has a youth awareness training course. Unfortunately, it lasts only three days—and it is held annually. It involves six police officers talking to 12 young people and taking them through a variety of experiences. I would be grateful for the minister's comments on that. More investment in that type of area would be valuable, as would more encouragement for the community safety forums in promoting an awareness of crime prevention and an awareness of what should be happening among young people.", "EditedTextHTML": "This is an important debate and it is a pity that there are distractions in Harrogate and Inverness, but I welcome the fact that it is taking place and I welcome the Executive's motion.

There is widespread agreement that the best way to fight crime is to tackle its causes in the community. We must concentrate on detection and prevention and keep police services up to strength. I note that numbers have declined by about 130 since September 1997. That is a matter that I would like the minister to address in his winding-up speech.

We must, of course, use new technology to cut bureaucracy and free police officers' time for other duties.

We must ensure that every rural community has a named community officer. That is already happening in many communities. I attended a rural agricultural show on the border between Scottish Borders and Dumfries and Galloway; the community officer was there. It is important that there is a visible police presence in rural areas.

There should also be a named officer for each beat in urban areas. That is an important objective. I agree with Roseanna Cunningham that one of the biggest causes of concern over policing is when a manned station closes, or when a station is not manned for a sufficient number of hours. Nothing undermines people's confidence more than telephoning their local station, only to be routed somewhere else because there is no one there. That issue needs to be tackled.

The Liberal Democrats want to retain the present number of police forces in Scotland, but we must identify more opportunities for joint operations and for procuring equipment and services across the English-Scottish border. Greater co-operation with constabularies in the north of England would assist crime prevention in the south of Scotland.

We back the use of CCTV with appropriate safeguards for civil liberties. We should also encourage the use of better home security systems. There are perhaps ways of building on the home energy efficiency scheme, for example by asking project co-ordinators to address the provision of home security with the aid of grants.

Better street lighting in some communities would be valuable. It is the cause of some regret that, in recent years, local authorities have had to cut the provision of street lighting in certain areas or have not maintained it to the highest standard. The police have achieved some success through targeting specific types of crime. In the Scottish Borders, they have made special efforts in several areas, particularly house-breaking, which have yielded significant dividends. There should be further targeting.

The biggest form of crime prevention is detection. Detection ensures that the criminal does not want to commit crime. It is the key element in policing. In the Scottish Borders, the detection rate has risen to 53 per cent—a remarkable achievement—but still only a bare majority of crimes are reported. As a senior police officer said to me recently, the police cannot do it all on their own; they need public assistance.

Crime prevention should be the duty of every citizen. I sincerely hope that we never become a society that is prepared to pass by on the other side. Working in partnership with the police is extremely important, and we should encourage greater participation in organisations such as children's panels. It is a cause of some concern that, locally, a significant advertising campaign is being used to try to recruit people to children's panels. We should look to better means of encouraging participation in such organisations.

We must encourage more reporting of crime and ensure that witnesses feel safe when they are giving evidence. We do not pay sufficient attention to their safety and confidence when giving evidence. We should perhaps develop the role of the police family liaison officer to assist people to come to terms with reporting and giving evidence on crime. The sheriff court users' group of the Scottish Consumer Council has, for a long time, advocated that there should be assistance in courts for witnesses—some form of guide or court assistant to help people through the process of giving evidence. For some people, giving evidence is the first occasion on which they have been in court.

Crime prevention must start early. That fact was brought home to me recently, when I was reading statistics on domestic violence. Out of 2,000 young people between the ages of 14 and 21, half the boys and a third of the girls who were interviewed believed that in some circumstances it is acceptable for a man to hit a woman. If that is what some young people believe, it shows the amount of work that we need to do. That is why the community safety forums are particularly valuable: they bring agencies together and they make the best use of the available expertise.

A community safety forum in the Borders has a youth awareness training course. Unfortunately, it lasts only three days—and it is held annually. It involves six police officers talking to 12 young people and taking them through a variety of experiences. I would be grateful for the minister's comments on that. More investment in that type of area would be valuable, as would more encouragement for the community safety forums in promoting an awareness of crime prevention and an awareness of what should be happening among young people.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2099E29P51C708315", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Young, John", "ID": 2099, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Young", "SpeakerDisplayName": "John Young: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 192.0, "ContributionID": 708315, "EditedText": "That provision applies only to indictable offences. I will now wind up. A government's first and basic duty is to protect the people that it represents: it does not matter what the political complexion of that government is. Sometimes that has been forgotten. I feel—and I stress that this is a personal view—that the west, and I do not just mean this country, is losing the drugs war. We can ill afford to do that. We must examine new measures and new strategies that may not have been explored before. That does not mean asking for people to be executed or put in jail and the key thrown away, but we must use a number of different measures. I thought that Phil Gallie and Johann Lamont in particular gave realistic speeches: she knows what she is talking about. I do not always agree with him but Tommy Sheridan knows what he is talking about, as do a number of other people in this chamber. We cannot go on in the same way because we will lose out. We are coming to a new century and we should be prepared to take the bit between the teeth and take the necessary action.", "EditedTextHTML": "That provision applies only to indictable offences. I will now wind up.

A government's first and basic duty is to protect the people that it represents: it does not matter what the political complexion of that government is. Sometimes that has been forgotten. I feel—and I stress that this is a personal view—that the west, and I do not just mean this country, is losing the drugs war. We can ill afford to do that. We must examine new measures and new strategies that may not have been explored before. That does not mean asking for people to be executed or put in jail and the key thrown away, but we must use a number of different measures.

I thought that Phil Gallie and Johann Lamont in particular gave realistic speeches: she knows what she is talking about. I do not always agree with him but Tommy Sheridan knows what he is talking about, as do a number of other people in this chamber. We cannot go on in the same way

because we will lose out. We are coming to a new century and we should be prepared to take the bit between the teeth and take the necessary action.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C708324", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 212.0, "ContributionID": 708324, "EditedText": "No, Sir David was making the point that members who wish to participate should be here for the debate. As I explained, he was not excluding members; he was bringing it to their attention that they should show the courtesy of being in the chamber to hear what was being said.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, Sir David was making the point that members who wish to participate should be here for the debate. As I explained, he was not excluding members; he was bringing it to their attention that they should show the courtesy of being in the chamber to hear what was being said.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2099E29P51C708304", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Young, John", "ID": 2099, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Young", "SpeakerDisplayName": "John Young (West of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 170.0, "ContributionID": 708304, "EditedText": "I agree with Malcolm Chisholm's final remark on the importance of this debate. Yet what do we find? Where are Jim Wallace and Donald Dewar? There is only a deputy minister sitting in the front row and the attendance generally is sparse. All of us received the document \"Making it work together\". The word justice is at the top of the list of issues on the cover. Inside the document are a number of pledges, some of which are welcome. I do not deny that but I do question some of the statements made in it. We are told: \"We will promote effective measures to support the victims of crime. We will further protect our communities through the rehabilitation of offenders. We will be tough on crime and on criminals.\" How tough? This morning we have been going round in circles and toughness is lacking. There have been only two or three speeches with any realism in them; some of the interjections have had touches of realism as well. In the document there is a photograph of JimWallace chatting to two police officers. Again, where is he today? Where is Donald Dewar? Are they in Hamilton South perhaps? The document says: \"We will work together with the police and with communities to make our streets and neighbourhoods safe.\" That means attacking the drugs menace that is blighting our society and it means being tough on criminals. I agree with the idea of drugs courts, which are long overdue and should be targeted at big-time dealers. They should be fast-track courts with no juries, like the Diplock courts in Northern Ireland, because we all know that juries can be nobbled, particularly when big-time dealers are on trial. Then there are often not proven or not guilty verdicts. It is almost impossible to prove that, but it happens. There are lawyers sitting in the chamber who know it happens.", "EditedTextHTML": "I agree with Malcolm Chisholm's final remark on the importance of this debate. Yet what do we find? Where are Jim Wallace and Donald Dewar? There is only a deputy minister sitting in the front row and the attendance generally is sparse.

All of us received the document \"Making it work together\". The word justice is at the top of the list of issues on the cover. Inside the document are a number of pledges, some of which are welcome. I do not deny that but I do question some of the statements made in it. We are told:

\"We will promote effective measures to support the victims of crime. We will further protect our communities through the rehabilitation of offenders. We will be tough on crime and on criminals.\"

How tough? This morning we have been going round in circles and toughness is lacking. There have been only two or three speeches with any realism in them; some of the interjections have had touches of realism as well.

In the document there is a photograph of Jim

Wallace chatting to two police officers. Again, where is he today? Where is Donald Dewar? Are they in Hamilton South perhaps? The document says:

\"We will work together with the police and with communities to make our streets and neighbourhoods safe.\"

That means attacking the drugs menace that is blighting our society and it means being tough on criminals. I agree with the idea of drugs courts, which are long overdue and should be targeted at big-time dealers. They should be fast-track courts with no juries, like the Diplock courts in Northern Ireland, because we all know that juries can be nobbled, particularly when big-time dealers are on trial. Then there are often not proven or not guilty verdicts. It is almost impossible to prove that, but it happens. There are lawyers sitting in the chamber who know it happens.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2013E134P232C708305", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jackson, Gordon", "ID": 2013, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Govan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Gordon Jackson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Gordon Jackson (Glasgow Govan) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 172.0, "ContributionID": 708305, "EditedText": "Will Mr Young accept that there is no evidence that any jury in this country has ever been nobbled? The comment that lawyers here know that to be true is not right. We do not know it to be true; we have no evidence whatsoever.", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr Young accept that there is no evidence that any jury in this country has ever been nobbled? The comment that lawyers here know that to be true is not right. We do not know it to be true; we have no evidence whatsoever.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C708307", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 176.0, "ContributionID": 708307, "EditedText": "Rather than this neanderthal approach, which is so typical of the extreme right- wing attitude of his party now, and rather than making silly personal attacks that are not worthy of the chamber, will Mr Young explain the appalling record on home affairs and law and order of his party in government—which was not so much a Greek tragedy as a Feydeau farce—and then, eating humble pie, tell us what he would do for the future?", "EditedTextHTML": "Rather than this neanderthal approach, which is so typical of the extreme right- wing attitude of his party now, and rather than making silly personal attacks that are not worthy of the chamber, will Mr Young explain the appalling record on home affairs and law and order of his party in government—which was not so much a Greek tragedy as a Feydeau farce—and then, eating humble pie, tell us what he would do for the future?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2099E29P51C708312", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Young, John", "ID": 2099, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Young", "SpeakerDisplayName": "John Young: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 186.0, "ContributionID": 708312, "EditedText": "The Irish method is very interesting and worthy of exploration. I was talking about very big-time drug dealers, not smaller drug dealers. Everything should be explored. People find policemen on the beat comforting, but bear in mind that there are multi-storeys today and vast car parks and supermarkets and things have changed. Criminals are mobile today. Mention was made of the children's panel system. I quote: \"In particular the children's panel system is a valuable forum for the young person who just strays off the straight and narrow and is often effective. However when it comes to the persistent offenders then it does not seem to work. The panel system has been in operation for 30 years and it is perhaps time to overhaul its purpose and aims. There are now many more young sophisticated and determined criminals around who need a different approach.\" That quotation does not come from Tory central office but from the Association of Scottish Police Superintendents, from highly experienced police officers. The children's panel has a part to play but it must be looked at again.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Irish method is very interesting and worthy of exploration. I was talking about very big-time drug dealers, not smaller drug dealers. Everything should be explored.

People find policemen on the beat comforting, but bear in mind that there are multi-storeys today and vast car parks and supermarkets and things have changed. Criminals are mobile today.

Mention was made of the children's panel system. I quote:

\"In particular the children's panel system is a valuable forum for the young person who just strays off the straight and narrow and is often effective. However when it comes to the persistent offenders then it does not seem to work. The panel system has been in operation for 30 years and it is perhaps time to overhaul its purpose and aims. There are now many more young sophisticated and determined criminals around who need a different approach.\"

That quotation does not come from Tory central office but from the Association of Scottish Police Superintendents, from highly experienced police officers. The children's panel has a part to play but it must be looked at again.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1752E75P296C708313", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jamieson, Cathy", "ID": 1752, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Cathy Jamieson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Cathy Jamieson (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 188.0, "ContributionID": 708313, "EditedText": "Does the member accept that for serious crimes and for repeat offending there is provision already for young people under the age of 16 to be referred to the courts system? Does he agree also that the children's hearing was a radical measure and has been accepted worldwide as an innovative way of offering protection to young people, as well as dealing with offending behaviour?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the member accept that for serious crimes and for repeat offending there is provision already for young people under the age of 16 to be referred to the courts system? Does he agree also that the children's hearing was a radical measure and has been accepted worldwide as an innovative way of offering protection to young people, as well as dealing with offending behaviour?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C708314", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 190.0, "ContributionID": 708314, "EditedText": "I call John Young and ask him to close on this point.", "EditedTextHTML": "I call John Young and ask him to close on this point.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1805E13P109C708316", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Whitefield, Karen", "ID": 1805, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Airdrie and Shotts" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Karen Whitefield", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Karen Whitefield (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 195.0, "ContributionID": 708316, "EditedText": "I welcome today's debate. People throughout Scotland will want to hear it because tackling crime is important to them. Today, as well as discussing how we tackle crime, I want to highlight the work that is carried out by the voluntary sector in combating crime and its effects. Throughout Scotland, people are taking positive action to make their communities safe and to provide alternatives to the criminal cycle into which young people can so easily fall. To use a phrase that has been referred to often this morning, I believe that we must be tough on crime and tough on the causes of crime. Being tough on crime means that, as a Parliament, we must support tough measures to target drug dealers, whose evil trade blights our communities. People will not forgive us if we shy away from our responsibilities. I am thinking of people such as Phyllis Woodlock, a Lanarkshire woman, whose 13-year-old son died after taking an ecstasy tablet. She is right to demand that drug dealers face tough sentences and that the proceeds of their criminal activities be confiscated. That is why I welcome the Executive's plan to create a drugs enforcement agency by June 2000. Being tough on the causes of crime means that we must support the numerous community and voluntary organisations that provide people of all ages with an alternative to criminal activities. I want young people to be given opportunities for personal and social development. Providing meaningful education and leisure opportunities for young people is the best way of ensuring that they become productive and active citizens. Organisations such as the Girls' Brigade, the Boys' Brigade, the scouts and youth football teams all complement the youth services that are provided by our councils. I believe that those organisations play a major role in developing social cohesion in our communities. A young person who is valued in a community is more likely to respect that community. Voluntary organisations such as community credit unions provide people with a means to save and borrow, which can stave off the need to approach illegal money lenders whose exorbitant interest rates can often drive people in desperation to commit criminal acts. Victim Support provides valuable services in Scotland. Last year, 1,400 volunteers provided practical and emotional support to 40,000 victims of crime. The voice of the victim must be heard. In a recent criminal justice research report, two thirds of victims interviewed reported behavioural changes as a result of the criminal incident; they said, for example, that they were becoming more security conscious and more irritable and distrustful of others.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome today's debate. People throughout Scotland will want to hear it because tackling crime is important to them.

Today, as well as discussing how we tackle crime, I want to highlight the work that is carried out by the voluntary sector in combating crime and its effects. Throughout Scotland, people are taking positive action to make their communities safe and to provide alternatives to the criminal cycle into which young people can so easily fall. To use a phrase that has been referred to often this morning, I believe that we must be tough on crime and tough on the causes of crime.

Being tough on crime means that, as a Parliament, we must support tough measures to target drug dealers, whose evil trade blights our communities. People will not forgive us if we shy away from our responsibilities. I am thinking of people such as Phyllis Woodlock, a Lanarkshire woman, whose 13-year-old son died after taking an ecstasy tablet. She is right to demand that drug dealers face tough sentences and that the proceeds of their criminal activities be confiscated. That is why I welcome the Executive's plan to create a drugs enforcement agency by June 2000.

Being tough on the causes of crime means that we must support the numerous community and voluntary organisations that provide people of all ages with an alternative to criminal activities. I want young people to be given opportunities for personal and social development. Providing meaningful education and leisure opportunities for young people is the best way of ensuring that they become productive and active citizens. Organisations such as the Girls' Brigade, the Boys' Brigade, the scouts and youth football teams all complement the youth services that are provided by our councils. I believe that those organisations play a major role in developing social cohesion in our communities. A young person who is valued in a community is more likely to respect that community.

Voluntary organisations such as community credit unions provide people with a means to save and borrow, which can stave off the need to approach illegal money lenders whose exorbitant interest rates can often drive people in desperation to commit criminal acts.

Victim Support provides valuable services in Scotland. Last year, 1,400 volunteers provided practical and emotional support to 40,000 victims of crime. The voice of the victim must be heard. In a recent criminal justice research report, two thirds of victims interviewed reported behavioural changes as a result of the criminal incident; they said, for example, that they were becoming more security conscious and more irritable and distrustful of others.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2066E64P88C708317", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McGrigor, Jamie", "ID": 2066, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie McGrigor", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Jamie McGrigor (Highlands and Islands) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 197.0, "ContributionID": 708317, "EditedText": "Karen Whitefield talks about victims of crime, but Labour has totally ignored them. Funding for Victim Support Scotland was slashed by £27,000 in 1998-99.", "EditedTextHTML": "Karen Whitefield talks about victims of crime, but Labour has totally ignored them. Funding for Victim Support Scotland was slashed by £27,000 in 1998-99.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1820E139P227C708326", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Curran, Margaret", "ID": 1820, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Baillieston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Curran", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Margaret Curran (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 217.0, "ContributionID": 708326, "EditedText": "You are better now.", "EditedTextHTML": "You are better now.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C708328", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 221.0, "ContributionID": 708328, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C708329", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 223.0, "ContributionID": 708329, "EditedText": "I want to finish making this point. We need new visitors facilities at Craiginches, because the current facilities make it difficult for the prison to keep drugs out. The governor estimates that 70 per cent of the people in the prison are there for drugs-related offences.", "EditedTextHTML": "I want to finish making this point. We need new visitors facilities at Craiginches, because the current facilities make it difficult for the prison to keep drugs out. The governor estimates that 70 per cent of the people in the prison are there for drugs-related offences.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C708331", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 227.0, "ContributionID": 708331, "EditedText": "That is a commendable ambition. However, when Mr McLeish had responsibility for this issue as a member of the UK Government, he brought sniffer dogs into prisons. At Saughton, the deputy governor informed me that dogs had been in the previous day but had not found anything. An hour later, a prison officer found a lump of cannabis wrapped in plastic and covered with Bovril. The prisoners are ahead of us and ahead of the dogs. We must take a more intelligent approach. I respect the drugs-free zones in prisons, but the problem is that people who are coming off drugs in prisons—often by going cold turkey, and in some cases of heroin addiction without being put on methadone and having the amounts reduced gradually—are not getting counselling. The extent to which counselling is offered and to which the fellowships are admitted varies greatly from prison to prison. Prison and institutional visits are one of the valuable things that Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous do. They make it possible to hold the sort of meetings that take place so successfully the length and breadth of this country to help people in recovery. As the governor of Saughton also told me, it is important that we stop seeing prisons in isolation. When people leave—this relates to all prisoners, not just addicts—there should be much more aftercare provided by local social services. That would give people the support and back-up that they need to keep them in recovery—to keep them clean and sober—so that they do not relapse. There is a huge amount to be done to encourage rehabilitation and not nearly enough is being done in our prisons. This is not a soft approach—it is an intelligent one. We should regard the money that is put into rehabilitating people and ensuring that they do not become recidivists not as public spending, but as public investment. We will be returning law-breaking addicts to society as employed and taxpaying members of the community, rather than as a drain on its resources. Not having been here for the first speech of the debate, I do not want to go on too long. However, I would like to comment on the recent widely reported remarks of the deputy chief constable of Lothian and Borders Police. I am worried by talk of a drugs tsar, which usually means a senior police officer and, with all respect to the minister, who is clearly an able man, it sends out the wrong signal to have as the chairman of the ministerial committee on drug misuse the Deputy Minister for Justice. The emphasis should be more on treatment, rehabilitation and education. The minister takes a hardline approach to drug- trafficking, as he must—it is an evil trade. However, we must also consider the other side of the issue: it is important to cut demand.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is a commendable ambition. However, when Mr McLeish had responsibility for this issue as a member of the UK Government, he brought sniffer dogs into prisons. At Saughton, the deputy governor informed me that dogs had been in the previous day but had not found anything. An hour later, a prison officer found a lump of cannabis wrapped in plastic and covered with Bovril. The prisoners are ahead of us and ahead of the dogs.

We must take a more intelligent approach. I respect the drugs-free zones in prisons, but the problem is that people who are coming off drugs in prisons—often by going cold turkey, and in some cases of heroin addiction without being put on methadone and having the amounts reduced gradually—are not getting counselling. The extent to which counselling is offered and to which the fellowships are admitted varies greatly from prison to prison. Prison and institutional visits are one of the valuable things that Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous do. They make it possible to hold the sort of meetings that take place so successfully the length and breadth of this country to help people in recovery.

As the governor of Saughton also told me, it is important that we stop seeing prisons in isolation. When people leave—this relates to all prisoners, not just addicts—there should be much more aftercare provided by local social services. That would give people the support and back-up that they need to keep them in recovery—to keep them clean and sober—so that they do not relapse.

There is a huge amount to be done to encourage rehabilitation and not nearly enough is being done in our prisons. This is not a soft approach—it is an intelligent one. We should regard the money that is put into rehabilitating people and ensuring that they do not become recidivists not as public spending, but as public investment. We will be returning law-breaking addicts to society as employed and taxpaying members of the community, rather than as a drain on its resources.

Not having been here for the first speech of the debate, I do not want to go on too long. However, I would like to comment on the recent widely reported remarks of the deputy chief constable of Lothian and Borders Police. I am worried by talk of a drugs tsar, which usually means a senior police officer and, with all respect to the minister, who is clearly an able man, it sends out the wrong signal to have as the chairman of the ministerial committee on drug misuse the Deputy Minister for Justice. The emphasis should be more on treatment, rehabilitation and education. The minister takes a hardline approach to drug- trafficking, as he must—it is an evil trade. However, we must also consider the other side of the issue: it is important to cut demand.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C708332", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 229.0, "ContributionID": 708332, "EditedText": "Could you wind up, please?", "EditedTextHTML": "Could you wind up, please?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2188E70P92C708340", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harper, Robin", "ID": 2188, "PartyName": "Scottish Green Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Green", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robin Harper", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robin Harper: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 247.0, "ContributionID": 708340, "EditedText": "I am sure that Gordon Jackson will agree with this point, but I would like to mention it again with reference to Phil Gallie's earlier remarks. The problem with the children's panel system is the lack of resources to deal with persistent offenders.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sure that Gordon Jackson will agree with this point, but I would like to mention it again with reference to Phil Gallie's earlier remarks. The problem with the children's panel system is the lack of resources to deal with persistent offenders.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C708349", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 267.0, "ContributionID": 708349, "EditedText": "Presiding Officer, is it possible that we can move to extend this morning's proceedings to allow one or two other colleagues to speak in the debate? If so, I would be prepared to move such a motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "Presiding Officer, is it possible that we can move to extend this morning's proceedings to allow one or two other colleagues to speak in the debate? If so, I would be prepared to move such a motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C708356", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 282.0, "ContributionID": 708356, "EditedText": "Mr Sheridan, the member has already said that she does not wish to give way.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Sheridan, the member has already said that she does not wish to give way.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C708363", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 296.0, "ContributionID": 708363, "EditedText": "On a point of order, Presiding Officer. Can I conclude from the fact that you are allowing Angus to follow that you have changed the standing orders? The business bulletin clearly states that Tom McCabe would speak \"no later than 12.20\". It is now 12.20. Does that mean that you are prepared to extend the debate, but only for certain members?", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order, Presiding Officer. Can I conclude from the fact that you are allowing Angus to follow that you have changed the standing orders? The business bulletin clearly states that Tom McCabe would speak \"no later than 12.20\". It is now 12.20. Does that mean that you are prepared to extend the debate, but only for certain members?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "C708372", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26844, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 307.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 307.0, "ID": 26844, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 316.0, "ContributionID": 708372, "EditedText": "Question, That the meeting be now adjourned until 2.30 pm today, put and agreed to.—Mr McCabe.", "EditedTextHTML": "Question, That the meeting be now adjourned until 2.30 pm today, put and agreed to.—[Mr McCabe.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "C708374", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26844, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 307.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 307.0, "ID": 26844, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 319.0, "ContributionID": 708374, "EditedText": "On resuming—", "EditedTextHTML": "On resuming—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C708367", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Angus MacKay: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 305.0, "ContributionID": 708367, "EditedText": "The point that I am making is that the Conservatives had 18 years of government in which to bring to bear the full panoply of all the agencies, budgets and policy instruments to tackle the crime that is rooted in our communities, from law enforcement to regeneration. Despite having a generation of government and investment, the Conservatives failed; they do not hold a moral position from which to lecture any other party about the way in which we protect our communities from crime. I will now turn to the constructive points that were made by SNP members. I welcomed Christine Grahame's comments, although I was rather concerned on her behalf because I read an article written in response to the voice of the new intellectual leadership of the SNP, Mr Andrew Wilson, and his comments on being British. The commentator said: \"The trouble is, much of what is being offered sounds as if it has fallen off the back of a new Labour think-tank.\" Having heard the terms social inclusion and holistic, I was concerned that Christine might have been underneath the think-tank when it fell over. I was somewhat distressed. I welcome the broad consensus on the issue. The SNP made some valuable contributions to the discussion. I am very happy to answer in writing questions about further details on community safety partnerships that I did not manage to address in today's debate. Audits have been carried out of the 32 community safety partnerships, and we are in discussion with the Accounts Commission and HM Inspectorate of Constabulary about the way in which we can establish broad monitoring mechanisms to ensure that those partnerships are effective and that best practice is replicated. I hope that that answer and others in writing will allay any fears on that front. Rural policing is broadly an operational matter for the police forces and the chief constables. However, in Fife, for example, a number of mobile CCTV systems are available. Such mobile systems are an example of the way in which CCTV can be deployed effectively in non-urban, rural and remote parts of Scotland, where particular problems can arise that are difficult to deal with. CCTV is also effective in dealing with problems in urban Scotland: vandalism in school playgrounds, drug dealing in particular streets and areas, carjacking, house-breaking and what not. Unfortunately, there is a large number of issues that I will not have time to talk about. I will wind up by saying that I think that it would be welcome, at a later date, to have a further and wider debate specifically on the important subject of drugs. This Administration is committed to enforcement—no one could imagine that that is not the case. We are also committed to prevention and rehabilitation. There are short-term, medium-term and long-term approaches. In the short term, the drug enforcement agency will yield important results in interdicting the supply of drugs to our communities. In the medium term, we have to tackle the problem of demand: that will involve preventive and informative education on the use and misuse of drugs. In the long term— and I am glad that 99 per cent of the members in this chamber agree with this—the solution to the drugs problem and the wider crime problem will involve social inclusion and regeneration. That means delivering on the new deal, delivering on social inclusion partnerships, delivering on regeneration of all our communities, and especially of the peripheral housing estates, and ensuring that the education system works for all people in all communities in Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "The point that I am making is that the Conservatives had 18 years of government in which to bring to bear the full panoply of all the agencies, budgets and policy instruments to tackle the crime that is rooted in our communities, from law enforcement to regeneration. Despite having a generation of government and investment, the Conservatives failed; they do not hold a moral position from which to lecture any other party about the way in which we protect our communities from crime.

I will now turn to the constructive points that were made by SNP members. I welcomed Christine Grahame's comments, although I was rather concerned on her behalf because I read an article written in response to the voice of the new intellectual leadership of the SNP, Mr Andrew Wilson, and his comments on being British. The commentator said:

\"The trouble is, much of what is being offered sounds as if it has fallen off the back of a new Labour think-tank.\"

Having heard the terms social inclusion and holistic, I was concerned that Christine might have been underneath the think-tank when it fell over. I was somewhat distressed. I welcome the broad consensus on the issue. The SNP made some valuable contributions to the discussion.

I am very happy to answer in writing questions about further details on community safety partnerships that I did not manage to address in today's debate. Audits have been carried out of the 32 community safety partnerships, and we are in discussion with the Accounts Commission and HM Inspectorate of Constabulary about the way in which we can establish broad monitoring mechanisms to ensure that those partnerships are effective and that best practice is replicated. I hope that that answer and others in writing will allay any fears on that front.

Rural policing is broadly an operational matter for the police forces and the chief constables. However, in Fife, for example, a number of mobile CCTV systems are available. Such mobile systems are an example of the way in which CCTV can be deployed effectively in non-urban, rural and remote parts of Scotland, where particular problems can arise that are difficult to deal with. CCTV is also effective in dealing with problems in urban Scotland: vandalism in school playgrounds, drug dealing in particular streets and areas, carjacking, house-breaking and what not.

Unfortunately, there is a large number of issues that I will not have time to talk about. I will wind up by saying that I think that it would be welcome, at a later date, to have a further and wider debate specifically on the important subject of drugs. This Administration is committed to enforcement—no one could imagine that that is not the case. We are also committed to prevention and rehabilitation. There are short-term, medium-term and long-term approaches.

In the short term, the drug enforcement agency will yield important results in interdicting the supply of drugs to our communities. In the medium term, we have to tackle the problem of demand: that will involve preventive and informative education on the use and misuse of drugs. In the long term— and I am glad that 99 per cent of the members in this chamber agree with this—the solution to the drugs problem and the wider crime problem will involve social inclusion and regeneration. That means delivering on the new deal, delivering on social inclusion partnerships, delivering on regeneration of all our communities, and especially of the peripheral housing estates, and ensuring that the education system works for all people in all communities in Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708377", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26845, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26846, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "QuestionHeading": "Agritay Ltd", "QuestionHeadingID": 26847, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 324.0, "DisplayOrder": 324.0, "ID": 26847, "ParentID": 26846 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 327.0, "ContributionID": 708377, "EditedText": "Before we go any further, may I say that I am going to have to be tough on the length of ministerial answers as well.", "EditedTextHTML": "Before we go any further, may I say that I am going to have to be tough on the length of ministerial answers as well.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C708385", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26845, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26846, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "QuestionHeading": "Housing", "QuestionHeadingID": 26849, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 340.0, "DisplayOrder": 340.0, "ID": 26849, "ParentID": 26846 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 345.0, "ContributionID": 708385, "EditedText": "I agree with Cathie Craigie. As she knows, we have introduced anti-social behaviour orders and the Crime and Disorder Act 1998 provides the police with powers to seize noise-making equipment. I confirm that research into the legal process is under way, to identify any unreasonable delays in dealing with cases of anti-social behaviour.", "EditedTextHTML": "I agree with Cathie Craigie. As she knows, we have introduced anti-social behaviour orders and the Crime and Disorder Act 1998 provides the police with powers to seize noise-making equipment. I confirm that research into the legal process is under way, to identify any unreasonable delays in dealing with cases of anti-social behaviour.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2154E194P299C708387", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26845, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26846, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "QuestionHeading": "Dumfries and Galloway Economic Forum", "QuestionHeadingID": 26850, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 347.0, "DisplayOrder": 347.0, "ID": 26850, "ParentID": 26846 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stephen, Nicol", "ID": 2154, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Nicol Stephen", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning (Nicol Stephen): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 350.0, "ContributionID": 708387, "EditedText": "David Mundell will know that the decision to establish the forum was taken when Henry McLeish visited the area on 4 August. Officials from the Scottish Executive, Dumfries and Galloway Enterprise, Dumfries and Galloway Council and Dumfries and Galloway Tourist Board had a very constructive meeting on Monday 20 September to discuss the role and composition of the Dumfries and Galloway economic forum.", "EditedTextHTML": "David Mundell will know that the decision to establish the forum was taken when Henry McLeish visited the area on 4 August. Officials from the Scottish Executive, Dumfries and Galloway Enterprise, Dumfries and Galloway Council and Dumfries and Galloway Tourist Board had a very constructive meeting on Monday 20 September to discuss the role and composition of the Dumfries and Galloway economic forum.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C708391", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26845, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26846, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "QuestionHeading": "Health Care", "QuestionHeadingID": 26851, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 356.0, "DisplayOrder": 356.0, "ID": 26851, "ParentID": 26846 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 359.0, "ContributionID": 708391, "EditedText": "Does the minister share my concern at the rising suicide rate among young men in the light of last week's evidence that no psychiatric beds were available in the whole of Scotland?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the minister share my concern at the rising suicide rate among young men in the light of last week's evidence that no psychiatric beds were available in the whole of Scotland?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C708393", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26845, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26846, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "QuestionHeading": "Road Maintenance", "QuestionHeadingID": 26852, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 363.0, "DisplayOrder": 363.0, "ID": 26852, "ParentID": 26846 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "6. Mr Murray Tosh (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 364.0, "ContributionID": 708393, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it has any plans to introduce a Scottish equivalent of the national roads maintenance condition survey in England. (S1O-367)", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it has any plans to introduce a Scottish equivalent of the national roads maintenance condition survey in England. (S1O-367)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C708394", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26845, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26846, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "QuestionHeading": "Road Maintenance", "QuestionHeadingID": 26852, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 363.0, "DisplayOrder": 363.0, "ID": 26852, "ParentID": 26846 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister (Donald Dewar): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 366.0, "ContributionID": 708394, "EditedText": "Presiding Officer, I would like to point out that Sarah Boyack is in Ireland today on Government business. She is attending an important European meeting and obviously, therefore, we must stand in for her. I am mindful of your advice, so as far as the question is concerned, the answer is no. Laughter.", "EditedTextHTML": "Presiding Officer, I would like to point out that Sarah Boyack is in Ireland today on Government business. She is attending an important European meeting and obviously, therefore, we must stand in for her. I am mindful of your advice, so as far as the question is concerned, the answer is no. [Laughter.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C708399", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26845, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26846, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "QuestionHeading": "Road Maintenance", "QuestionHeadingID": 26852, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 363.0, "DisplayOrder": 363.0, "ID": 26852, "ParentID": 26846 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 376.0, "ContributionID": 708399, "EditedText": "Oh that Mr Salmond were here to hear the man who raised the ceefax question. I am grateful to the First Minister for indicating where the information might be found. Could he indicate whether the sums that are allocated are likely—in his judgment—to allow on-going maintenance at an appropriate rate and the elimination of backlogs and maintenance within a reasonable time scale?", "EditedTextHTML": "Oh that Mr Salmond were here to hear the man who raised the ceefax question. I am grateful to the First Minister for indicating where the information might be found. Could he indicate whether the sums that are allocated are likely—in his judgment—to allow on-going maintenance at an appropriate rate and the elimination of backlogs and maintenance within a reasonable time scale?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C708403", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26845, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26846, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "QuestionHeading": "Kincardine Power Station", "QuestionHeadingID": 26853, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 380.0, "DisplayOrder": 380.0, "ID": 26853, "ParentID": 26846 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bruce Crawford: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 385.0, "ContributionID": 708403, "EditedText": "I am grateful for that answer. It does not require me to tell the minister that Clackmannanshire and west Fife have experienced severe job losses recently. I am aware of the clean coal plan, but it will not take up the whole of the site. Will the Executive ask Fife Enterprise and Forth Valley Enterprise to carry out a joint study on the possible future uses of this strategically important site on the banks of the Forth? The site has the potential to produce innovative future use solutions—", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful for that answer. It does not require me to tell the minister that Clackmannanshire and west Fife have experienced severe job losses recently. I am aware of the clean coal plan, but it will not take up the whole of the site. Will the Executive ask Fife Enterprise and Forth Valley Enterprise to carry out a joint study on the possible future uses of this strategically important site on the banks of the Forth? The site has the potential to produce innovative future use solutions—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2068E171P304C708410", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26845, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26846, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "QuestionHeading": "Roads (A9)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26855, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 400.0, "DisplayOrder": 400.0, "ID": 26855, "ParentID": 26846 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stone, Jamie", "ID": 2068, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie Stone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "9. Mr Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 401.0, "ContributionID": 708410, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive when work will commence on the scheduled major improvements to the A9 at Berriedale and between Navidale and the Ord of Caithness. (S1O-352) The Deputy Minister for Highlands and Islands and Gaelic (Mr Alasdair Morrison): Proposals for improvements on the A9 between Navidale and the Ord of Caithness are being considered in the strategic roads review. Sarah Boyack plans to report on the review shortly.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive when work will commence on the scheduled major improvements to the A9 at Berriedale and between Navidale and the Ord of Caithness. (S1O-352) The Deputy Minister for Highlands and Islands and Gaelic (Mr Alasdair Morrison): Proposals for improvements on the A9 between Navidale and the Ord of Caithness are being considered in the strategic roads review. Sarah Boyack plans to report on the review shortly.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1832E96P195C708413", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26845, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26846, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "QuestionHeading": "Railway Station (Dysart)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26856, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 407.0, "DisplayOrder": 407.0, "ID": 26856, "ParentID": 26846 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Livingstone, Marilyn", "ID": 1832, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Kirkcaldy" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Marilyn Livingstone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "10. Marilyn Livingstone (Kirkcaldy) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 408.0, "ContributionID": 708413, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what progress it has made in the opening of a new rail station at Dysart. (S1O-348)", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what progress it has made in the opening of a new rail station at Dysart. (S1O-348)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1832E96P195C708415", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26845, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26846, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "QuestionHeading": "Railway Station (Dysart)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26856, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 407.0, "DisplayOrder": 407.0, "ID": 26856, "ParentID": 26846 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Livingstone, Marilyn", "ID": 1832, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Kirkcaldy" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Marilyn Livingstone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Marilyn Livingstone: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 412.0, "ContributionID": 708415, "EditedText": "Can the minister give me some indication of what the time scale will be? Will he further request a meeting with Sarah Boyack to discuss this issue?", "EditedTextHTML": "Can the minister give me some indication of what the time scale will be? Will he further request a meeting with Sarah Boyack to discuss this issue?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1893E47P78C708419", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26845, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26846, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "QuestionHeading": "Scottish Environment Protection Agency", "QuestionHeadingID": 26857, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 418.0, "DisplayOrder": 418.0, "ID": 26857, "ParentID": 26846 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnstone, Alex", "ID": 1893, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Johnstone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Johnstone: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 421.0, "ContributionID": 708419, "EditedText": "Is the First Minister prepared to comment on suggestions that there might be a geographical imbalance in the new appointments, in that some regions have not been adequately represented? Will he further comment on the suggestion that there may also be an industry imbalance, in that some Scottish industries are inadequately represented? Will he comment on the suggestion that there might be a political reflection of the new Executive in the new appointments?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is the First Minister prepared to comment on suggestions that there might be a geographical imbalance in the new appointments, in that some regions have not been adequately represented? Will he further comment on the suggestion that there may also be an industry imbalance, in that some Scottish industries are inadequately represented? Will he comment on the suggestion that there might be a political reflection of the new Executive in the new appointments?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1986E53P206C708421", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26845, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26846, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "QuestionHeading": "Drug Trafficking", "QuestionHeadingID": 26858, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 425.0, "DisplayOrder": 425.0, "ID": 26858, "ParentID": 26846 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeil, Duncan", "ID": 1986, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Greenock and Inverclyde" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan McNeil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "12. Mr Duncan McNeil (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 426.0, "ContributionID": 708421, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it considers that enhanced powers to seize the assets of organised criminals, similar to those of the Criminal Assets Bureau in the Republic of Ireland, would help the fight against dealers in illegal drugs. (S1O-365) The Deputy Minister for Justice (Angus MacKay): Effective powers of confiscation are essential in our fight against illegal drugs. I intend to ensure that the powers that are available to the Executive and to enforcement agencies are effective. I am considering a range of options.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it considers that enhanced powers to seize the assets of organised criminals, similar to those of the Criminal Assets Bureau in the Republic of Ireland, would help the fight against dealers in illegal drugs. (S1O-365) The Deputy Minister for Justice (Angus MacKay): Effective powers of confiscation are essential in our fight against illegal drugs. I intend to ensure that the powers that are available to the Executive and to enforcement agencies are effective. I am considering a range of options.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708427", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26845, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26846, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "QuestionHeading": "Drug Trafficking", "QuestionHeadingID": 26858, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 425.0, "DisplayOrder": 425.0, "ID": 26858, "ParentID": 26846 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 438.0, "ContributionID": 708427, "EditedText": "There was a question in the middle, there.", "EditedTextHTML": "There was a question in the middle, there.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2118E157P454C708430", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26845, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26846, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "QuestionHeading": "Housing", "QuestionHeadingID": 26859, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 442.0, "DisplayOrder": 442.0, "ID": 26859, "ParentID": 26846 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Quinan, Mr Lloyd", "ID": 2118, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lloyd Quinan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Quinan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 445.0, "ContributionID": 708430, "EditedText": "Does the minister agree that, in the event of a ballot rejection, the level of investment will not match the investment that there would have been if the ballot had been positive rather than negative, and that, in reality, this is a form of blackmail?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the minister agree that, in the event of a ballot rejection, the level of investment will not match the investment that there would have been if the ballot had been positive rather than negative, and that, in reality, this is a form of blackmail?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "C708432", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26845, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26846, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "QuestionHeading": "Housing", "QuestionHeadingID": 26859, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 442.0, "DisplayOrder": 442.0, "ID": 26859, "ParentID": 26846 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Several members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Several members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 449.0, "ContributionID": 708432, "EditedText": "Glasgow's?", "EditedTextHTML": "Glasgow's?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C708434", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26845, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26846, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "QuestionHeading": "Teachers' Pay", "QuestionHeadingID": 26860, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 451.0, "DisplayOrder": 451.0, "ID": 26860, "ParentID": 26846 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 454.0, "ContributionID": 708434, "EditedText": "If the minister really wants to reward teachers who want a good career structure without having to leave the classroom, why is there no classroom teacher on the committee that is to be chaired by Professor McCrone, who was a civil servant at the Scottish Office for more than 20 years? Why is the minister consulting only that so- called independent chairman before filling the remaining vacancy, which almost inevitably will lead to suspicions of McCronyism?", "EditedTextHTML": "If the minister really wants to reward teachers who want a good career structure without having to leave the classroom, why is there no classroom teacher on the committee that is to be chaired by Professor McCrone, who was a civil servant at the Scottish Office for more than 20 years? Why is the minister consulting only that so- called independent chairman before filling the remaining vacancy, which almost inevitably will lead to suspicions of McCronyism?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1996E124P211C708438", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26845, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26846, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "QuestionHeading": "Community Planning", "QuestionHeadingID": 26861, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 458.0, "DisplayOrder": 458.0, "ID": 26861, "ParentID": 26846 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAveety, Mr Frank", "ID": 1996, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Shettleston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Local Government", "SpeakerName": "Frank McAveety", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McAveety: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 463.0, "ContributionID": 708438, "EditedText": "As I said in my earlier statement, we are confident that there will be an opportunity for that debate during the consultation process. Those who want to argue for community planning and for other matters referred to in the document will have the chance to present their case. The authorities that have engaged in the pathfinder projects and found them to be beneficial will no doubt make such submissions, and I encourage others to give thought to the matter in the near future.", "EditedTextHTML": "As I said in my earlier statement, we are confident that there will be an opportunity for that debate during the consultation process. Those who want to argue for community planning and for other matters referred to in the document will have the chance to present their case. The authorities that have engaged in the pathfinder projects and found them to be beneficial will no doubt make such submissions, and I encourage others to give thought to the matter in the near future.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2123E103P242C708443", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26845, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26846, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "QuestionHeading": "Pensioners (Concessionary Travel)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26863, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 472.0, "DisplayOrder": 472.0, "ID": 26863, "ParentID": 26846 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Chisholm, Malcolm", "ID": 2123, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh North and Leith" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Malcolm Chisholm", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Malcolm Chisholm: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 475.0, "ContributionID": 708443, "EditedText": "Does the minister agree that although a wise decision about next year's pension increase is reserved to Westminster, there are many areas, including public transport, in which this Parliament can advance the interests of pensioners? I welcome the fact that the minister has talked about integration and I urge the Executive to move as quickly as possible towards a national concessionary travel scheme for pensioners.", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the minister agree that although a wise decision about next year's pension increase is reserved to Westminster, there are many areas, including public transport, in which this Parliament can advance the interests of pensioners? I welcome the fact that the minister has talked about integration and I urge the Executive to move as quickly as possible towards a national concessionary travel scheme for pensioners.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708448", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26865, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 486.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 486.0, "ID": 26865, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 487.0, "ContributionID": 708448, "EditedText": "I remind members that supplementary questions have to be on the same subject as the main question.", "EditedTextHTML": "I remind members that supplementary questions have to be on the same subject as the main question.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C708450", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26865, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 486.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26866, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 489.0, "QuestionHeading": "Chancellor of the Exchequer (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26867, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 490.0, "DisplayOrder": 490.0, "ID": 26867, "ParentID": 26866 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 493.0, "ContributionID": 708450, "EditedText": "I am glad that the First Minister is in active discussions with his friend the chancellor. Since he has been doing such a good job today as stand-in transport minister, will he use his influence with the chancellor on the next occasion that they meet to persuade him to devote a far higher proportion of the tax revenues that are currently derived from motorists to transport throughout the UK, thereby enabling Ms Boyack to tackle Scotland's transport needs more effectively than at present?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am glad that the First Minister is in active discussions with his friend the chancellor. Since he has been doing such a good job today as stand-in transport minister, will he use his influence with the chancellor on the next occasion that they meet to persuade him to devote a far higher proportion of the tax revenues that are currently derived from motorists to transport throughout the UK, thereby enabling Ms Boyack to tackle Scotland's transport needs more effectively than at present?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C708451", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26865, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 486.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26866, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 489.0, "QuestionHeading": "Chancellor of the Exchequer (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26867, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 490.0, "DisplayOrder": 490.0, "ID": 26867, "ParentID": 26866 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 495.0, "ContributionID": 708451, "EditedText": "The balance is of course always under consideration and no doubt my colleague the chancellor will be thinking about that, as all of us are. The important thing to note is that, as against the plans that we inherited, there has been a very substantial improvement in public spending over the comprehensive spending review period—the equivalent of about £800 for every man, woman and child in Scotland. I hope that, in the years ahead, we will be able to build public services and to continue the fairly heavy investment that we already make in public transport, particularly in remoter rural areas.", "EditedTextHTML": "The balance is of course always under consideration and no doubt my colleague the chancellor will be thinking about that, as all of us are. The important thing to note is that, as against the plans that we inherited, there has been a very substantial improvement in public spending over the comprehensive spending review period—the equivalent of about £800 for every man, woman and child in Scotland. I hope that, in the years ahead, we will be able to build public services and to continue the fairly heavy investment that we already make in public transport, particularly in remoter rural areas.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708455", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26865, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 486.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26866, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 489.0, "QuestionHeading": "Chancellor of the Exchequer (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26867, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 490.0, "DisplayOrder": 490.0, "ID": 26867, "ParentID": 26866 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 503.0, "ContributionID": 708455, "EditedText": "I do not see the First Minister discussing that matter with the Chancellor of the Exchequer.", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not see the First Minister discussing that matter with the Chancellor of the Exchequer.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1828E200P487C708456", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26865, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 486.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26866, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 489.0, "QuestionHeading": "Chancellor of the Exchequer (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26867, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 490.0, "DisplayOrder": 490.0, "ID": 26867, "ParentID": 26866 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacDonald, Margo", "ID": 1828, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margo MacDonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms MacDonald: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 505.0, "ContributionID": 708456, "EditedText": "It is about the block grant.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is about the block grant.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708458", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26865, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 486.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26866, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 489.0, "QuestionHeading": "Chancellor of the Exchequer (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26867, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 490.0, "DisplayOrder": 490.0, "ID": 26867, "ParentID": 26866 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 509.0, "ContributionID": 708458, "EditedText": "Well, just.", "EditedTextHTML": "Well, just.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C708459", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26865, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 486.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26866, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 489.0, "QuestionHeading": "Chancellor of the Exchequer (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26867, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 490.0, "DisplayOrder": 490.0, "ID": 26867, "ParentID": 26866 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 511.0, "ContributionID": 708459, "EditedText": "No one would ever accuse Margo MacDonald of lack of persistence. \"It's the economy, stupid.\" Of course I will draw my colleagues' attention to that matter. Sometimes, press and other reports exaggerate. In any event, the funding of the health service in Scotland over this three-year period is in a remarkably healthier state than it was previously. We are very proud of that. Interruption.", "EditedTextHTML": "No one would ever accuse Margo MacDonald of lack of persistence. \"It's the economy, stupid.\"

Of course I will draw my colleagues' attention to that matter. Sometimes, press and other reports exaggerate. In any event, the funding of the health service in Scotland over this three-year period is in a remarkably healthier state than it was previously. We are very proud of that. [Interruption.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708462", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26865, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 486.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26866, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 489.0, "QuestionHeading": "Chancellor of the Exchequer (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26867, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 490.0, "DisplayOrder": 490.0, "ID": 26867, "ParentID": 26866 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 517.0, "ContributionID": 708462, "EditedText": "May we take it after questions so that it does not interrupt the flow?", "EditedTextHTML": "May we take it after questions so that it does not interrupt the flow?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1892E34P73C708463", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26865, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 486.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26866, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 489.0, "QuestionHeading": "Chancellor of the Exchequer (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26867, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 490.0, "DisplayOrder": 490.0, "ID": 26867, "ParentID": 26866 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Fergusson, Alex", "ID": 1892, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Fergusson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Fergusson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 519.0, "ContributionID": 708463, "EditedText": "Yes.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2167E79P155C708466", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26865, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 486.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26866, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 489.0, "QuestionHeading": "Education", "QuestionHeadingID": 26868, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 521.0, "DisplayOrder": 521.0, "ID": 26868, "ParentID": 26866 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Peacock, Peter", "ID": 2167, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Peter Peacock", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Peter Peacock: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 526.0, "ContributionID": 708466, "EditedText": "The approach that Sam Galbraith has taken since becoming minister has been one of extraordinary commitment and of trying to find a way forward in which to change the tone and atmosphere of the debate surrounding Scottish education. For far too long, debate about Scottish education has taken place against a negative backcloth, and Sam Galbraith has done more than any individual to try to make the tone positive. He has gone out of his way to recognise the position of teachers and the job that they do. We are seeking a long-term solution to what has been a problem in Scottish education for too long. That is our objective and I wish that the SNP would join us in that. I look forward to seeing the evidence that Nicola Sturgeon will produce to the independent inquiry, so that we can see what her position is in detail and not just hear it through soundbites.", "EditedTextHTML": "The approach that Sam Galbraith has taken since becoming minister has been one of extraordinary commitment and of trying to find a way forward in which to change the tone and atmosphere of the debate surrounding Scottish education. For far too long, debate about Scottish education has taken place against a negative backcloth, and Sam Galbraith has done more than any individual to try to make the tone positive. He has gone out of his way to recognise the position of teachers and the job that they do.

We are seeking a long-term solution to what has been a problem in Scottish education for too long. That is our objective and I wish that the SNP would join us in that. I look forward to seeing the evidence that Nicola Sturgeon will produce to the independent inquiry, so that we can see what her position is in detail and not just hear it through soundbites.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2167E79P155C708470", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26865, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 486.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26866, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 489.0, "QuestionHeading": "Education", "QuestionHeadingID": 26868, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 521.0, "DisplayOrder": 521.0, "ID": 26868, "ParentID": 26866 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Peacock, Peter", "ID": 2167, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Peter Peacock", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Peter Peacock: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 534.0, "ContributionID": 708470, "EditedText": "We are trying to find a long- term answer to this problem to tackle the fact that teachers have felt beleaguered over many years. We realise that they feel that there is an initiative overload, but it is difficult to turn that around in a short period. Our commitment is to find the answers to those problems and to ensure that we move forward. Mr Tosh refers to the proposals made by the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities through the Scottish Joint Negotiating Committee for Teaching Staff in School Education. Those proposals have been put to one side while the inquiry looks to the long term. We are desperately trying to find the long-term solution.", "EditedTextHTML": "We are trying to find a long- term answer to this problem to tackle the fact that teachers have felt beleaguered over many years. We realise that they feel that there is an initiative overload, but it is difficult to turn that around in a short period. Our commitment is to find the answers to those problems and to ensure that we move forward.

Mr Tosh refers to the proposals made by the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities through the Scottish Joint Negotiating Committee for Teaching Staff in School Education. Those proposals have been put to one side while the inquiry looks to the long term. We are desperately trying to find the long-term solution.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4983548+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2029E47P167C708476", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26865, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 486.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26866, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 489.0, "QuestionHeading": "Council of the Isles", "QuestionHeadingID": 26869, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 536.0, "DisplayOrder": 536.0, "ID": 26869, "ParentID": 26866 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Henry, Hugh", "ID": 2029, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Hugh Henry", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Hugh Henry (Paisley South) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 547.0, "ContributionID": 708476, "EditedText": "Will the minister ensure that he gives the best wishes of this Parliament to Senator George Mitchell, Mo Mowlam and the members of the Northern Ireland Assembly, who are trying to make progress in a difficult situation? When he transmits our best wishes to them, will he ensure that they know that we—not just the Scottish Executive, but the Scottish Parliament—are keen to play our part in the council of the isles and that we look forward to a close working relationship with them in future years?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister ensure that he gives the best wishes of this Parliament to Senator George Mitchell, Mo Mowlam and the members of the Northern Ireland Assembly, who are trying to make progress in a difficult situation? When he transmits our best wishes to them, will he ensure that they know that we—not just the Scottish Executive, but the Scottish Parliament—are keen to play our part in the council of the isles and that we look forward to a close working relationship with them in future years?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4983548+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C708477", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26865, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 486.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26866, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 489.0, "QuestionHeading": "Council of the Isles", "QuestionHeadingID": 26869, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 536.0, "DisplayOrder": 536.0, "ID": 26869, "ParentID": 26866 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 549.0, "ContributionID": 708477, "EditedText": "I am sure that all members of the Scottish Parliament will agree with me when I say that, regardless of our views on the constitutional position of Scotland or anywhere else in the United Kingdom, we all want a successful resolution to the current discussions on the implementation of the Belfast agreement. We all want the establishment of devolved administration in Northern Ireland, on the basis of agreement from all the parties, to implement the will of the people as soon as possible.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sure that all members of the Scottish Parliament will agree with me when I say that, regardless of our views on the constitutional position of Scotland or anywhere else in the United Kingdom, we all want a successful resolution to the current discussions on the implementation of the Belfast agreement. We all want the establishment of devolved administration in Northern Ireland, on the basis of agreement from all the parties, to implement the will of the people as soon as possible.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4983548+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2068E171P304C708480", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26865, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 486.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26866, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 489.0, "QuestionHeading": "Council of the Isles", "QuestionHeadingID": 26869, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 536.0, "DisplayOrder": 536.0, "ID": 26869, "ParentID": 26866 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stone, Jamie", "ID": 2068, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie Stone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 555.0, "ContributionID": 708480, "EditedText": "Given Ben Wallace's rather ridiculous remark—an example of what we are trying to avoid in the British isles—will the minister consider inviting members of the Dail and the Northern Ireland Assembly to see how we go about matters here to encourage them further?", "EditedTextHTML": "Given Ben Wallace's rather ridiculous remark—an example of what we are trying to avoid in the British isles—will the minister consider inviting members of the Dail and the Northern Ireland Assembly to see how we go about matters here to encourage them further?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4983548+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708482", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26865, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 486.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26866, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 489.0, "QuestionHeading": "Council of the Isles", "QuestionHeadingID": 26869, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 536.0, "DisplayOrder": 536.0, "ID": 26869, "ParentID": 26866 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 559.0, "ContributionID": 708482, "EditedText": "That brings us to the end of question time. I gather that Mr Fergusson does not wish to press his point of order.", "EditedTextHTML": "That brings us to the end of question time. I gather that Mr Fergusson does not wish to press his point of order.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4983548+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708483", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26870, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 561.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 561.0, "ID": 26870, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 562.0, "ContributionID": 708483, "EditedText": "We proceed now to the debate on motion SM1-165, on the voluntary sector, in the name of Jackie Baillie. Because of the large number of members who want to be called in this debate, speeches from back benchers will be limited to four minutes.", "EditedTextHTML": "We proceed now to the debate on motion SM1-165, on the voluntary sector, in the name of Jackie Baillie. Because of the large number of members who want to be called in this debate, speeches from back benchers will be limited to four minutes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4983548+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2118E157P454C708489", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26870, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 561.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 561.0, "ID": 26870, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Quinan, Mr Lloyd", "ID": 2118, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lloyd Quinan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Quinan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 576.0, "ContributionID": 708489, "EditedText": "No, certainly not.From what the deputy minister said today, it appears that the Government intends to address the needs of this valuable and vital sector. As has been said, the voluntary sector had an income of £1.8 billion last year. Some of that came from trading, rents and investment and there was 26 per cent from the public sector, 22 per cent from donations and 7 per cent from the lottery— which is really a donation through the national lottery. The voluntary sector desperately needs continuity of funding. I welcome the deputy minister's suggestions on three-year funding and accounting. I also support what Keith Raffan said: we have to formalise that with both central and local government. There are other squeezes on the voluntary sector. Central Government provides support in the form of grants from other public bodies. In Scotland under the current Administration, support from organisations such as Scottish Homes and the enterprise companies dropped from £313 million in 1996-97 to £279 million in 1997-98— admittedly that is the last year for which figures are available.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, certainly not.

From what the deputy minister said today, it appears that the Government intends to address the needs of this valuable and vital sector.

As has been said, the voluntary sector had an income of £1.8 billion last year. Some of that came from trading, rents and investment and there was 26 per cent from the public sector, 22 per cent from donations and 7 per cent from the lottery— which is really a donation through the national lottery.

The voluntary sector desperately needs continuity of funding. I welcome the deputy minister's suggestions on three-year funding and accounting. I also support what Keith Raffan said: we have to formalise that with both central and local government.

There are other squeezes on the voluntary sector. Central Government provides support in the form of grants from other public bodies. In Scotland under the current Administration, support from organisations such as Scottish Homes and the enterprise companies dropped from £313 million in 1996-97 to £279 million in 1997-98— admittedly that is the last year for which figures are available.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4983548+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2118E157P454C708487", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26870, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 561.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 561.0, "ID": 26870, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Quinan, Mr Lloyd", "ID": 2118, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lloyd Quinan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Lloyd Quinan (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 572.0, "ContributionID": 708487, "EditedText": "On behalf of the Parliament, I thank and welcome the many volunteers and representatives of voluntary organisations who have come to the chamber today to listen to the debate. I also thank the Deputy Minister for Communities for her statement. The Scottish National party will support the motion, although there are several things that we would like to point out. We do not support entirely the programme for government, but otherwise we fully support the motion. I am glad to hear that an SNP proposal of nearly 10 years' standing, on three-year accounting and funding, has been adopted by the Executive. The role of the voluntary sector in Scotland involves not just day-to-day work on the ground, providing assistance, care, community work, education, housing and social assistance. It is at the mercy of the consequences of Government decision making and economic conditions. As a result, the sector has had to respond quickly to many changes, and has developed policy to adapt to changes in circumstances in Scotland. That policy development role has been undervalued by politicians in the past. I thank the Executive for the value that it places on the voluntary sector, but it is vital that those at the coal face of the voluntary organisations—indeed those in the gallery today— are given the opportunity to shape Government policy at its heart, rather than simply react to it. Jackie Baillie referred to the compact. I would like to talk about that a little, having spoken to a large number of voluntary organisations over the past few months. Are the benefits of the compact realistic? It will be introduced as a measure to create a flow of information from Government to the voluntary sector and vice versa. That looks good on paper—the compact is bound in a glossy cover—but, according to my consultations, the general feeling is that the sector has extensive reservations about its content. Will setting up the compact have a significant and positive impact on the future of the voluntary sector? Will the Government respond to the issues instigated by the voluntary sector? Will it act on those issues and not simply become an ear to which the voluntary sector can voice its opinions and concerns? Let us hope so. More important, how will those channels of communication be set up? What will the formal structures be? The compact contains some broad and sweeping gestures about its role and function, but how will it take the relationship between Government and the voluntary sector to a higher plane? The voluntary sector has some specific concerns. What mechanisms will be put in place to ensure that the Government is carrying out the commitments that are made in the compact? Who will monitor the compact? Who will open up the channels of communication for users? That is an excellent idea, but how will the exercise be orchestrated, who will pay for it and, more important, what are the costs involved? Will the compact be reviewed? Very importantly, what will be the time scale for reviews? Who will benefit from the compact? Will it be the users—the voluntary organisations—or the Executive, to enable it to hold up a document as a token offering to the voluntary sector?", "EditedTextHTML": "On behalf of the Parliament, I thank and welcome the many volunteers and representatives of voluntary organisations who have come to the chamber today to listen to the debate. I also thank the Deputy Minister for Communities for her statement. The Scottish National party will support the motion, although there are several things that we would like to point out. We do not support entirely the programme for government, but otherwise we fully support the motion. I am glad to hear that an SNP proposal of nearly 10 years' standing, on three-year accounting and funding, has been adopted by the Executive.

The role of the voluntary sector in Scotland involves not just day-to-day work on the ground, providing assistance, care, community work, education, housing and social assistance. It is at the mercy of the consequences of Government decision making and economic conditions. As a result, the sector has had to respond quickly to many changes, and has developed policy to adapt to changes in circumstances in Scotland. That policy development role has been undervalued by politicians in the past. I thank the Executive for the value that it places on the voluntary sector, but it is vital that those at the coal face of the voluntary organisations—indeed those in the gallery today— are given the opportunity to shape Government policy at its heart, rather than simply react to it.

Jackie Baillie referred to the compact. I would like to talk about that a little, having spoken to a large number of voluntary organisations over the past few months. Are the benefits of the compact realistic? It will be introduced as a measure to create a flow of information from Government to the voluntary sector and vice versa. That looks good on paper—the compact is bound in a glossy cover—but, according to my consultations, the general feeling is that the sector has extensive reservations about its content.

Will setting up the compact have a significant and positive impact on the future of the voluntary sector? Will the Government respond to the issues instigated by the voluntary sector? Will it act on those issues and not simply become an ear to which the voluntary sector can voice its opinions and concerns? Let us hope so. More important, how will those channels of communication be set up? What will the formal structures be? The compact contains some broad and sweeping gestures about its role and function, but how will it take the relationship between Government and the voluntary sector to a higher plane?

The voluntary sector has some specific concerns. What mechanisms will be put in place to ensure that the Government is carrying out the commitments that are made in the compact? Who will monitor the compact? Who will open up the channels of communication for users? That is an excellent idea, but how will the exercise be orchestrated, who will pay for it and, more important, what are the costs involved? Will the compact be reviewed? Very importantly, what will be the time scale for reviews?

Who will benefit from the compact? Will it be the users—the voluntary organisations—or the Executive, to enable it to hold up a document as a token offering to the voluntary sector?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4983548+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C708496", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26870, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 561.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 561.0, "ID": 26870, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ms Patricia Ferguson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 590.0, "ContributionID": 708496, "EditedText": "You did not accept it, Mr Quinan, so it was not.", "EditedTextHTML": "You did not accept it, Mr Quinan, so it was not.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4983548+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C708500", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26870, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 561.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 561.0, "ID": 26870, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 599.0, "ContributionID": 708500, "EditedText": "The Conservatives support today's motion almost entirely. We congratulate the minister on her comments—we identify with and support most of them. It is perhaps strange for a Tory to stand up and be so enthusiastic, but we should all be enthusiastic about and proud of the voluntary sector in Scotland. I have a small reservation about the wording of the motion, with respect to creating \"a stable infrastructure in which the voluntary sector can flourish\". Right throughout the 1990s and going back to the 1980s, the voluntary sector has flourished. It has grown and has made an important contribution to Scottish society. The strength of the voluntary sector has not emerged in the past two years—it has been built up over many years. If the minister is saying that the Executive will ensure that that continues and that the voluntary sector will be enhanced, that is another reason for us to support the motion. The voluntary sector produces a newspaper called \"The Third Force\"—and the voluntary sector really is the third force: there is the public sector, the private sector and the voluntary sector. It is a major economic force in Scotland, which spends a lot of money, much of which comes from Government. However, the income breakdown shows that the voluntary sector has considerable earnings. I think that Mr Quinan suggested that 30 per cent of the sector's funding comes from the national lottery; my understanding is that some 7 or 8 per cent comes from the national lottery, usually through capital grants. However, 30 per cent of the funding comes from cash raised by the voluntary sector for itself. One of the great values of the voluntary sector— as the minister mentioned—is the number of people employed by it. However, for every person who is employed by the sector, there are least three or four others who give their time and effort voluntarily. In many areas, there would be great holes in public sector facilities were the voluntary sector to drop out. Hospital shops and many of the services provided in hospitals, meals on wheels, parent-teacher associations and school boards are run by people who want to work in the community, giving their time and effort freely. Sports in Scotland would die almost entirely without the efforts of volunteers. I regret that the lottery—and at times the Government—does not give a little more recognition to the support that is needed for sporting bodies. If the minister can find some extra cash around millennium time, I can think of one or two good projects in Ayr. In particular, I would like to put in a good word for Caledonian Football Club, whose buildings are falling into disrepair. Despite that, the club caters for 400 to 500 youngsters on a week-to-week basis. The club does that without any financial support whatever. I would like to think that the minister's compact could assist such an organisation. Why do volunteers get involved? They get involved because they are interested in their community. They want to achieve things for their families, for their neighbours and for their community. We should encourage that. Volunteers, as we all know, gain much satisfaction from what they do. Much of their reward comes from seeing developments that would not have been thought about and could not have come to fruition without their efforts. I have some marginal reservations about the Scottish compact. Voluntary organisations must be truly independent, but the charge might be laid that the compact contains some Government interference in the voluntary sector.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Conservatives support today's motion almost entirely. We congratulate the minister on her comments—we identify with and support most of them. It is perhaps strange for a Tory to stand up and be so enthusiastic, but we should all be enthusiastic about and proud of the voluntary sector in Scotland.

I have a small reservation about the wording of the motion, with respect to creating

\"a stable infrastructure in which the voluntary sector can flourish\".

Right throughout the 1990s and going back to the 1980s, the voluntary sector has flourished. It has grown and has made an important contribution to Scottish society. The strength of the voluntary sector has not emerged in the past two years—it has been built up over many years. If the minister is saying that the Executive will ensure that that continues and that the voluntary sector will be enhanced, that is another reason for us to support the motion.

The voluntary sector produces a newspaper called \"The Third Force\"—and the voluntary sector really is the third force: there is the public sector, the private sector and the voluntary sector. It is a major economic force in Scotland, which spends a lot of money, much of which comes from Government. However, the income breakdown shows that the voluntary sector has considerable earnings. I think that Mr Quinan suggested that 30 per cent of the sector's funding comes from the national lottery; my understanding is that some 7 or 8 per cent comes from the national lottery, usually through capital grants. However, 30 per cent of the funding comes from cash raised by the voluntary sector for itself.

One of the great values of the voluntary sector— as the minister mentioned—is the number of people employed by it. However, for every person who is employed by the sector, there are least three or four others who give their time and effort voluntarily. In many areas, there would be great holes in public sector facilities were the voluntary sector to drop out. Hospital shops and many of the services provided in hospitals, meals on wheels, parent-teacher associations and school boards are run by people who want to work in the community, giving their time and effort freely.

Sports in Scotland would die almost entirely without the efforts of volunteers. I regret that the lottery—and at times the Government—does not give a little more recognition to the support that is needed for sporting bodies. If the minister can find some extra cash around millennium time, I can think of one or two good projects in Ayr. In particular, I would like to put in a good word for Caledonian Football Club, whose buildings are falling into disrepair. Despite that, the club caters for 400 to 500 youngsters on a week-to-week basis. The club does that without any financial support whatever. I would like to think that the minister's compact could assist such an organisation.

Why do volunteers get involved? They get involved because they are interested in their community. They want to achieve things for their families, for their neighbours and for their community. We should encourage that. Volunteers, as we all know, gain much satisfaction from what they do. Much of their reward comes from seeing developments that would not have been thought about and could not have come to fruition without their efforts.

I have some marginal reservations about the Scottish compact. Voluntary organisations must be truly independent, but the charge might be laid that the compact contains some Government interference in the voluntary sector.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4983548+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C708502", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26870, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 561.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 561.0, "ID": 26870, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 603.0, "ContributionID": 708502, "EditedText": "I recognise that that is the aim, and I suggested that that could give the impression of greater Government involvement. We do not want that to happen, because another major source of funding for voluntary organisations is through donations. If people who wanted to give money to voluntary organisations felt that there was a Government link, that might cause them to pull back. Neil McIntosh, before the previous election, stressed the importance of the voluntary sector maintaining its independence. I accept the deputy minister's words that the Government has no intention to dominate the voluntary sector. Before the election, people in the voluntary sector had great expectations for this Parliament. They believed that, through the Parliament, their voices would be heard in a more significant way. They will have opportunities for that, and I am sure that many parliamentary committees have already talked—in select committee style, if I may hark back to a Westminster expression—to voluntary organisations. That will grow. However, I have one fear, that there will not be sufficient time in committees and in Parliament to cope with the voluntary sector, given the curtailed hours that we work. When I say that our hours are curtailed, I mean our parliamentary hours, because I recognise that everyone has duties in their constituencies. But if we are truly to involve the people from the important voluntary sector, we must consider overlapping the meetings of the Parliament and of the committees.", "EditedTextHTML": "I recognise that that is the aim, and I suggested that that could give the impression of greater Government involvement. We do not want that to happen, because another major source of funding for voluntary organisations is through donations. If people who wanted to give money to voluntary organisations felt that there was a Government link, that might cause them to pull back. Neil McIntosh, before the previous election, stressed the importance of the voluntary sector maintaining its independence. I accept the deputy minister's words that the Government has no intention to dominate the voluntary sector.

Before the election, people in the voluntary sector had great expectations for this Parliament. They believed that, through the Parliament, their voices would be heard in a more significant way. They will have opportunities for that, and I am sure that many parliamentary committees have already talked—in select committee style, if I may hark back to a Westminster expression—to voluntary organisations. That will grow. However, I have one fear, that there will not be sufficient time in committees and in Parliament to cope with the voluntary sector, given the curtailed hours that we work. When I say that our hours are curtailed, I mean our parliamentary hours, because I recognise that everyone has duties in their constituencies. But if we are truly to involve the people from the important voluntary sector, we must consider overlapping the meetings of the Parliament and of the committees.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4983548+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C708503", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26870, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 561.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 561.0, "ID": 26870, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 605.0, "ContributionID": 708503, "EditedText": "We now move to the open part of the debate. Many members want to speak, so it would be helpful if members could restrict themselves to the time limit of four minutes for speeches. In an effort to be helpful, I will indicate when a member speaking has one minute left.", "EditedTextHTML": "We now move to the open part of the debate. Many members want to speak, so it would be helpful if members could restrict themselves to the time limit of four minutes for speeches. In an effort to be helpful, I will indicate when a member speaking has one minute left.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4983548+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1752E75P296C708505", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26870, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 561.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 561.0, "ID": 26870, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jamieson, Cathy", "ID": 1752, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Cathy Jamieson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Cathy Jamieson (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 611.0, "ContributionID": 708505, "EditedText": "I welcome the debate; I fully endorse the Executive's approach to a real partnership with the voluntary sector. This time last year, I was working in the voluntary sector and, towards the end of the first half of the financial year, I was wondering whether I would be able to pay my staff as the year closed; where our core funding would come from; and how I would replace money from the National Lottery Charities Board which was about to run out. I welcome the Executive's commitment to put secure core funding for the voluntary sector on a three-year footing. I hope that we will find a way for local authorities to do the same. My experience is that annually applying to 32 different local authorities took up a lot of business time and was not good use of a manager's time. I was interested to read that about 60,000 people in Scotland are employed in the voluntary sector, which, as has been pointed out, is more than the combined figure of those involved in the mining, agriculture and quarrying industries. That struck a chord for me, as I represent a former mining community. I pay tribute to those who lost their jobs as a result of the closure of deep mines and who now form the backbone of the voluntary sector and community organisations in Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley. The people who are involved as befrienders, youth workers, children's panel members, carers group members and members of Church groups are making a significant input to their communities, having been put on the scrap-heap when the pits closed. I pay tribute to the people who act as fund raisers for their local groups, using a multitude of skills and talents that go unrecognised and unrewarded. Allowing those people to put their skills into practice in community businesses would create a real opportunity for sustainable development. We heard this morning about the problems of young people and crime, but I pay tribute to the young people who are involved in the voluntary sector day in, day out and week in, week out. Those young people are not the problem, but are part of the solution; they can lead us forward on how we deal with young people's problems. I am glad that the Executive is taking the voluntary sector seriously. For too long, the reality of life in the voluntary sector—or the third sector, as I should probably call it—involved low wages with no year-on-year increases, poor working conditions, long hours, no pension rights, little access to training, lack of support and supervision and no redundancy payments when projects came to an end. I hope that the proposed partnership will address those problems by securing sufficient core funding. I was pleased that Jackie Baillie mentioned joined-up thinking in government, in relation to other areas that impact on the voluntary sector. I want to raise a couple of points that are problematic but on which I do not expect detailed answers today, because more debate is required. The first concerns the voluntary sector in rural areas and transport costs. At a surgery last week in Auchinleck, a constituent who is a cancer patient said that he felt that he owed a tribute to the volunteer drivers who had driven him for his treatment every week. He was concerned about what might happen if road congestion charges had an impact on the voluntary sector. A number of voluntary organisations have urged us to address that concern, and I am sure that we will. My second point concerns the potentially thorny problem of the Scottish Criminal Record Office checks, particularly in relation to children's organisations. People who are unemployed and might want to volunteer their services would not be able to pay a fee up front to prove that they did not have criminal convictions. No matter how many such checks are made, we have no guarantee that people cannot slip through the net. Scottish Criminal Record Office checks are no substitute for a good vetting procedure or for good training and supervision of volunteers. Members of the business community often organise fund-raising events and consider the voluntary sector in their local areas. I challenge people in the business community to undertake a social audit in their area. They could consider how to contribute to their local community in a sustainable way, not by organising one-off fund- raising events, but by ensuring that their company or organisation allowed staff to give time and expertise to the voluntary sector in the longer term. I do not often agree with Phil Gallie, but I almost did today until he spoiled it all. I agree with what he said about the valuable organisations that work with young people, but I do not agree that we should spend more time in the chamber talking about the voluntary sector.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the debate; I fully endorse the Executive's approach to a real partnership with the voluntary sector.

This time last year, I was working in the voluntary sector and, towards the end of the first half of the financial year, I was wondering whether I would be able to pay my staff as the year closed; where our core funding would come from; and how I would replace money from the National Lottery Charities Board which was about to run out. I welcome the Executive's commitment to put secure core funding for the voluntary sector on a three-year footing.

I hope that we will find a way for local authorities to do the same. My experience is that annually applying to 32 different local authorities took up a lot of business time and was not good use of a manager's time.

I was interested to read that about 60,000 people in Scotland are employed in the voluntary sector, which, as has been pointed out, is more than the combined figure of those involved in the mining, agriculture and quarrying industries. That struck a chord for me, as I represent a former mining community. I pay tribute to those who lost their jobs as a result of the closure of deep mines and who now form the backbone of the voluntary sector and community organisations in Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley. The people who are involved as befrienders, youth workers, children's panel members, carers group members and

members of Church groups are making a significant input to their communities, having been put on the scrap-heap when the pits closed.

I pay tribute to the people who act as fund raisers for their local groups, using a multitude of skills and talents that go unrecognised and unrewarded. Allowing those people to put their skills into practice in community businesses would create a real opportunity for sustainable development.

We heard this morning about the problems of young people and crime, but I pay tribute to the young people who are involved in the voluntary sector day in, day out and week in, week out. Those young people are not the problem, but are part of the solution; they can lead us forward on how we deal with young people's problems.

I am glad that the Executive is taking the voluntary sector seriously. For too long, the reality of life in the voluntary sector—or the third sector, as I should probably call it—involved low wages with no year-on-year increases, poor working conditions, long hours, no pension rights, little access to training, lack of support and supervision and no redundancy payments when projects came to an end. I hope that the proposed partnership will address those problems by securing sufficient core funding.

I was pleased that Jackie Baillie mentioned joined-up thinking in government, in relation to other areas that impact on the voluntary sector. I want to raise a couple of points that are problematic but on which I do not expect detailed answers today, because more debate is required. The first concerns the voluntary sector in rural areas and transport costs. At a surgery last week in Auchinleck, a constituent who is a cancer patient said that he felt that he owed a tribute to the volunteer drivers who had driven him for his treatment every week. He was concerned about what might happen if road congestion charges had an impact on the voluntary sector. A number of voluntary organisations have urged us to address that concern, and I am sure that we will.

My second point concerns the potentially thorny problem of the Scottish Criminal Record Office checks, particularly in relation to children's organisations. People who are unemployed and might want to volunteer their services would not be able to pay a fee up front to prove that they did not have criminal convictions. No matter how many such checks are made, we have no guarantee that people cannot slip through the net. Scottish Criminal Record Office checks are no substitute for a good vetting procedure or for good training and supervision of volunteers.

Members of the business community often organise fund-raising events and consider the voluntary sector in their local areas. I challenge people in the business community to undertake a social audit in their area. They could consider how to contribute to their local community in a sustainable way, not by organising one-off fund- raising events, but by ensuring that their company or organisation allowed staff to give time and expertise to the voluntary sector in the longer term.

I do not often agree with Phil Gallie, but I almost did today until he spoiled it all. I agree with what he said about the valuable organisations that work with young people, but I do not agree that we should spend more time in the chamber talking about the voluntary sector.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4983548+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2185E120P328C708521", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26870, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 561.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 561.0, "ID": 26870, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Brown, Robert", "ID": 2185, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robert Brown", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robert Brown (Glasgow) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 648.0, "ContributionID": 708521, "EditedText": "The number of members who have experience in the voluntary sector is one of the unsung glories of the Scottish Parliament. That experience has been shown in the excellent debate that we have had today, and particularly in the speech made by Cathy Jamieson. We should also welcome the fact that we have a minister who spoke with knowledge and commitment when giving her guarantees and assurances to us today, and who has a background in the voluntary sector. The support for the voluntary sector in everything that has been said today is welcome. My first point is about the independence of the voluntary sector. It is—and should be—genuinely independent, with its own objectives, ethos and character. Although I support the Scottish Executive, I would like to state clearly that the voluntary sector's main job is not to deliver the Labour and Liberal Democrat partnership's programme for government. Its main job is to advance its own plural and diverse objectives to fulfil a series of aims—which will contribute to the rich variety in society—regardless of whether they fit in with the overall programme of the Scottish Executive. Those aims can be the provision of independent and impartial advice from citizens advice bureaux, fighting the cause of the homeless through Shelter, or environmental interests being served by the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds, which has a larger membership than all our political parties put together. That is not to say that co-operation between the voluntary sector and central and local government is not crucial. Of course it is, and there are myriad partnerships to prove it. Many of them are essential agencies in achieving the Executive's objectives. The partnership between Government and the voluntary sector should be one of equals. Core funding for the sector should be more assured and should take less time to access than it has in the past. I welcome the three-year commitment of the Executive. I used to chair Rutherglen and Cambuslang citizens advice bureau. We spent a great deal of time trying to access and secure funding. When I multiply that time by the number of CABs in Scotland and by the number of organisations in the voluntary sector, it becomes clear that the time spent in that process is out of proportion to the paltry sums of money involved. We must find ways to remove the burden of red tape from volunteers' shoulders to allow them to get on with their jobs. Donald Gorrie talked about the need for bumf-busting committees, which would be important in getting rid of the hoops through which people must jump to get funding. My next point is connected: we must reinforce successful projects. It is all very well to set up new projects, but it is at least as important to retain the mechanisms of existing projects and to keep them going. It is easier to do that than to start a new structure from scratch, just as it is easier to continue with an existing customer base in private business than to start a new one. In Easterhouse, there are no fewer than 298 voluntary groups. There is an almighty furore over plans to develop the new social inclusion partnership arrangements in Easterhouse—a reasonable objective in itself, but one that seems to be ignoring or sidelining the role of the existing voluntary organisations—and to wind up the successful Greater Easterhouse Council of Voluntary Organisation, which was regarded as a prototype in its field. We must be careful that we do not throw the baby out with the bath water when we reorganise structures like that. Let us ensure that, as well as funding, supporting and recognising the independence of the voluntary sector, we keep our doors open to the ideas that that sector has to offer. The 28,000 recognised charities—and many beyond them that are not formally recognised—have a wealth of experience and suggestions to offer, which this Parliament must take on board. Let us keep the doors of our organisation open to ensure that that experience is used effectively in the policy development mechanism.", "EditedTextHTML": "The number of members who have experience in the voluntary sector is one of the unsung glories of the Scottish Parliament. That experience has been shown in the excellent debate that we have had today, and particularly in the speech made by Cathy Jamieson.

We should also welcome the fact that we have a minister who spoke with knowledge and commitment when giving her guarantees and assurances to us today, and who has a background in the voluntary sector.

The support for the voluntary sector in everything that has been said today is welcome. My first point is about the independence of the voluntary sector. It is—and should be—genuinely independent, with its own objectives, ethos and character.

Although I support the Scottish Executive, I would like to state clearly that the voluntary sector's main job is not to deliver the Labour and Liberal Democrat partnership's programme for government. Its main job is to advance its own plural and diverse objectives to fulfil a series of aims—which will contribute to the rich variety in society—regardless of whether they fit in with the overall programme of the Scottish Executive.

Those aims can be the provision of independent and impartial advice from citizens advice bureaux, fighting the cause of the homeless through Shelter, or environmental interests being served by the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds, which has a larger membership than all our political parties put together.

That is not to say that co-operation between the voluntary sector and central and local government is not crucial. Of course it is, and there are myriad partnerships to prove it. Many of them are essential agencies in achieving the Executive's objectives. The partnership between Government and the voluntary sector should be one of equals. Core funding for the sector should be more assured and should take less time to access than it has in the past. I welcome the three-year commitment of the Executive.

I used to chair Rutherglen and Cambuslang citizens advice bureau. We spent a great deal of time trying to access and secure funding. When I multiply that time by the number of CABs in Scotland and by the number of organisations in the voluntary sector, it becomes clear that the time spent in that process is out of proportion to the paltry sums of money involved.

We must find ways to remove the burden of red tape from volunteers' shoulders to allow them to get on with their jobs. Donald Gorrie talked about the need for bumf-busting committees, which would be important in getting rid of the hoops through which people must jump to get funding.

My next point is connected: we must reinforce successful projects. It is all very well to set up new projects, but it is at least as important to retain the mechanisms of existing projects and to keep them going. It is easier to do that than to start a new structure from scratch, just as it is easier to continue with an existing customer base in private business than to start a new one.

In Easterhouse, there are no fewer than 298 voluntary groups. There is an almighty furore over plans to develop the new social inclusion partnership arrangements in Easterhouse—a reasonable objective in itself, but one that seems to be ignoring or sidelining the role of the existing voluntary organisations—and to wind up the successful Greater Easterhouse Council of Voluntary Organisation, which was regarded as a prototype in its field. We must be careful that we do not throw the baby out with the bath water when we reorganise structures like that.

Let us ensure that, as well as funding, supporting and recognising the independence of the voluntary sector, we keep our doors open to the ideas that that sector has to offer. The 28,000 recognised charities—and many beyond them that are not formally recognised—have a wealth of experience and suggestions to offer, which this Parliament must take on board. Let us keep the doors of our organisation open to ensure that that experience is used effectively in the policy development mechanism.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4983548+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708552", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26871, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 694.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 694.0, "ID": 26871, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 714.0, "ContributionID": 708552, "EditedText": "That concludes decision time and, as there is no members' business tonight, I close the meeting.", "EditedTextHTML": "That concludes decision time and, as there is no members' business tonight, I close the meeting.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4983548+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2234E7P20C708529", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26870, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 561.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 561.0, "ID": 26870, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Aitken, Bill", "ID": 2234, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bill Aitken", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bill Aitken (Glasgow) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 670.0, "ContributionID": 708529, "EditedText": "This has been a positive debate, discussing a positive motion. The motion was charmingly presented, if I may say so. It is important to recognise the value of the voluntary sector, which almost every speaker has highlighted. We have heard contributions from all parts of Scotland, which have highlighted what the voluntary sector contributes to their communities. That cannot be a bad thing. The voluntary sector also provides value for money. When Jackie Baillie has to go to Black Jack McConnell and ask for more money, perhaps the following information will be of some use to her. For example, the voluntary sector spends £1.8 billion per year. Of that, it raises £935 million, with only about £470 million coming from public funds. That, by any standards, is not a bad deal. It would not be appropriate for me to speak in this debate without paying tribute to the enormous amount of good will that is generated by the voluntary sector and by the more than 40,000 volunteers who give so willingly of their time— some only a few hours, others much more. Those people commit their time and, in many cases, spend a considerable amount of their money to ensure that their organisations work. That is their special contribution to Scottish civic society. We are very fortunate to have people who are prepared to do that. Anything that we can do to make that contribution more worth while and to encourage a feel-good factor is to be welcomed. I would like to have seen some aspects of the debate taken a bit further. Despite the undertaking that the minister has given, I am a little concerned that Government may involve itself too deeply. The voluntary sector is, by its very nature, voluntary. As far as possible, it should be detached from Government. While I see where the minister is coming from, we should not become too involved. Indeed, I would encourage the Government to examine ways in which the voluntary sector could do more. Superficial examination would suggest that housing associations are run in a very positive way, and I wonder whether that could be extended to, for example, old folks homes. The people of an area might set up a management committee to run a home to which the old folk from that community could come. The idea may not be a runner, but it is perhaps worthy of examination. While Government must remain detached, it must satisfy itself that there is a degree of accountability. Regardless of whether there is to be one-year or three-year funding, we must ensure that we get value for public money when it is invested. The one reservation that I have about the voluntary sector is that it is not always as focused as it might be. Sometimes too many organisations are attempting to do the same thing. It is difficult to see how that can be changed, because everyone wants to put forward their own case and we would not wish to discourage that. However, we could seek to ensure that funds that are handled by the voluntary sector achieve maximum benefit for all. I was amused by some of the examples that were cited in the debate, as members sought to promote their pet projects. I was particularly amused when Phil Gallie suggested that the minister consider putting money into the Caledonian Football Club, whose buildings are falling into disrepair. As a Partick Thistle supporter, I could ask the minister to put money into that club, whose players have fallen into disrepair.", "EditedTextHTML": "This has been a positive debate, discussing a positive motion. The motion was charmingly presented, if I may say so. It is important to recognise the value of the voluntary sector, which almost every speaker has highlighted. We have heard contributions from all parts of Scotland, which have highlighted what the voluntary sector contributes to their communities. That cannot be a bad thing.

The voluntary sector also provides value for money. When Jackie Baillie has to go to Black Jack McConnell and ask for more money, perhaps the following information will be of some use to her. For example, the voluntary sector spends £1.8 billion per year. Of that, it raises £935 million, with only about £470 million coming from public funds. That, by any standards, is not a bad deal.

It would not be appropriate for me to speak in this debate without paying tribute to the enormous amount of good will that is generated by the voluntary sector and by the more than 40,000 volunteers who give so willingly of their time— some only a few hours, others much more. Those people commit their time and, in many cases, spend a considerable amount of their money to ensure that their organisations work. That is their special contribution to Scottish civic society. We are very fortunate to have people who are prepared to do that. Anything that we can do to make that contribution more worth while and to encourage a feel-good factor is to be welcomed.

I would like to have seen some aspects of the debate taken a bit further. Despite the undertaking that the minister has given, I am a little concerned that Government may involve itself too deeply. The voluntary sector is, by its very nature, voluntary. As far as possible, it should be detached from Government. While I see where the minister is coming from, we should not become too involved.

Indeed, I would encourage the Government to examine ways in which the voluntary sector could do more. Superficial examination would suggest that housing associations are run in a very positive way, and I wonder whether that could be extended to, for example, old folks homes. The people of an area might set up a management committee to run a home to which the old folk from that community could come. The idea may not be a runner, but it is perhaps worthy of examination.

While Government must remain detached, it must satisfy itself that there is a degree of accountability. Regardless of whether there is to be one-year or three-year funding, we must ensure that we get value for public money when it is invested.

The one reservation that I have about the voluntary sector is that it is not always as focused as it might be. Sometimes too many organisations are attempting to do the same thing. It is difficult to see how that can be changed, because everyone wants to put forward their own case and we would not wish to discourage that. However, we could seek to ensure that funds that are handled by the voluntary sector achieve maximum benefit for all.

I was amused by some of the examples that were cited in the debate, as members sought to promote their pet projects. I was particularly amused when Phil Gallie suggested that the minister consider putting money into the Caledonian Football Club, whose buildings are falling into disrepair. As a Partick Thistle supporter, I could ask the minister to put money into that club, whose players have fallen into disrepair.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4983548+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1996E124P211C708530", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26870, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 561.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 561.0, "ID": 26870, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAveety, Mr Frank", "ID": 1996, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Shettleston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Local Government", "SpeakerName": "Frank McAveety", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Local Government (Mr Frank McAveety): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 672.0, "ContributionID": 708530, "EditedText": "There is not enough money for that.", "EditedTextHTML": "There is not enough money for that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4983548+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C708532", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26870, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 561.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 561.0, "ID": 26870, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 676.0, "ContributionID": 708532, "EditedText": "I call Fiona Hyslop to wind up for the Scottish National party.", "EditedTextHTML": "I call Fiona Hyslop to wind up for the Scottish National party.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4983548+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1775E171P452C708537", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26870, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 561.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 561.0, "ID": 26870, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeod, Fiona", "ID": 1775, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona McLeod", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona McLeod (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 688.0, "ContributionID": 708537, "EditedText": "Will Ms Alexander give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Ms Alexander give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4983548+00:00" }, { "ID": "C708541", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26871, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 694.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 694.0, "ID": 26871, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 698.0, "ContributionID": 708541, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4983548+00:00" }, { "ID": "C708548", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26871, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 694.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 694.0, "ID": 26871, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 709.0, "ContributionID": 708548, "EditedText": "That the Parliament notes the continuing need to work together for a safer Scotland and acknowledges that the formation of powerful yet practical community safety partnerships, as promoted by the Scottish Executive, provides the means of sustained involvement from all members of our communities and the agencies which serve those communities.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament notes the continuing need to work together for a safer Scotland and acknowledges that the formation of powerful yet practical community safety partnerships, as promoted by the Scottish Executive, provides the means of sustained involvement from all members of our communities and the agencies which serve those communities.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4983548+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708549", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26871, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 694.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 694.0, "ID": 26871, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 710.0, "ContributionID": 708549, "EditedText": "The third question is, that motion S1M-165, in the name of Jackie Baillie, on the voluntary sector, be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "The third question is, that motion S1M-165, in the name of Jackie Baillie, on the voluntary sector, be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4983548+00:00" }, { "ID": "C708553", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26871, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 694.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 694.0, "ID": 26871, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 716.0, "ContributionID": 708553, "EditedText": "Meeting closed at 17:01.", "EditedTextHTML": "Meeting closed at 17:01.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4983548+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1783E59P270C708494", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26870, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 561.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 561.0, "ID": 26870, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Baillie, Jackie", "ID": 1783, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumbarton" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Jackie Baillie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Jackie Baillie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 586.0, "ContributionID": 708494, "EditedText": "Indeed, I do not.", "EditedTextHTML": "Indeed, I do not.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:26:39.873439+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1783E59P270C708501", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26870, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 561.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 561.0, "ID": 26870, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Baillie, Jackie", "ID": 1783, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumbarton" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Jackie Baillie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Jackie Baillie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 601.0, "ContributionID": 708501, "EditedText": "I would like to make an intervention that I hope will be helpful and give Mr Gallie some reassurance. The compact starts by guaranteeing the independence of the voluntary sector, and the compact will be in place only when both sectors choose to work together.", "EditedTextHTML": "I would like to make an intervention that I hope will be helpful and give Mr

Gallie some reassurance. The compact starts by guaranteeing the independence of the voluntary sector, and the compact will be in place only when both sectors choose to work together.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:26:39.873439+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1870E181P475C708334", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robison, Shona", "ID": 1870, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Shona Robison", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Shona Robison (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 234.0, "ContributionID": 708334, "EditedText": "As was said earlier, many of those who feel most unsafe live in our most deprived communities. The problems that they face are well known: people are unable to leave their homes without having someone to house-sit to prevent a break-in and the theft of their possessions; there is widespread vandalism; there is a fear of young people hanging about; and there is the scourge of drugs and drugs-related crime. I am not sure that the audits, focus groups, surveys, citizens panels and people's juries that are referred to in the rather glossy report will tell us anything that communities do not already know. A couple of weeks ago, I had a meeting with the Finmill community safety panel in Dundee, which was very clear about its safety concerns and priorities. I would be more than happy to pass them on to the minister, so that we can bypass the inquiry phase and get on with action to solve the problems. The report is inoffensive and contains nothing with which I would disagree. However, as Christine said, it is not the easiest document to read. I found more than 150 references to partnership and more than 50 references to strategy, but zero references to new money. Will the minister tell us how much new money will be available to tackle the problems? He announced £3 million to support communities in dealing with safety problems. That money is welcome, but it could be spent in one partnership area. If we ask, ask, ask and do not deliver, we will do more damage. The document states that local authorities will be key players in the partnerships. However, they have seen their budgets cut by £1.3 billion in real terms over the first three years of this Government, which has meant that youth facilities have had to close or reduce their service. That is not really joined-up thinking, is it? Why do we not provide the youth facilities that would stop young people hanging around the streets and reduce youth-related crime? That is joined-up thinking. Will the minister tell us what new resources will go into developing youth provision? Young people are themselves trying to do things to improve the communities in which they live. I would like to pay tribute to the Braeview Academy community safety panel, which had its first official meeting yesterday. It involves young people identifying their priorities and doing something to achieve them. Their question was: \"Where are the resources to develop youth facilities in our area?\" I ask the minister the same question, because this is all about resources. The report says that the action plans that are to be drawn up put the onus on individual agencies to \"take ownership of those parts of the action plan which most relate to their core activities\". Will the minister clarify whether that is to be achieved within existing resources? If that is the case, how will it be done? The police play a key role in community safety, yet police force numbers—and I am not talking about civilian staff—have decreased during the past two years. The police have a role to play in making communities feel safer, but that requires additional police presence. Will the minister say whether police resources will be made available in addition to the 200 police officers who will be ring- fenced for work on the drugs problem? The report is inoffensive, if a little vague. However, we should not raise expectations in our communities if we cannot deliver. Adequate resources must be made available and I have yet to hear that that will be the case.", "EditedTextHTML": "As was said earlier, many of those who feel most unsafe live in our most deprived communities. The problems that they face are well known: people are unable to leave their homes without having someone to house-sit to prevent a break-in and the theft of their possessions; there is widespread vandalism; there is a fear of young people hanging about; and there is the scourge of drugs and drugs-related crime.

I am not sure that the audits, focus groups, surveys, citizens panels and people's juries that are referred to in the rather glossy report will tell us anything that communities do not already know. A couple of weeks ago, I had a meeting with the Finmill community safety panel in Dundee, which was very clear about its safety concerns and priorities. I would be more than happy to pass them on to the minister, so that we can bypass the

inquiry phase and get on with action to solve the problems.

The report is inoffensive and contains nothing with which I would disagree. However, as Christine said, it is not the easiest document to read. I found more than 150 references to partnership and more than 50 references to strategy, but zero references to new money. Will the minister tell us how much new money will be available to tackle the problems? He announced £3 million to support communities in dealing with safety problems. That money is welcome, but it could be spent in one partnership area. If we ask, ask, ask and do not deliver, we will do more damage.

The document states that local authorities will be key players in the partnerships. However, they have seen their budgets cut by £1.3 billion in real terms over the first three years of this Government, which has meant that youth facilities have had to close or reduce their service. That is not really joined-up thinking, is it? Why do we not provide the youth facilities that would stop young people hanging around the streets and reduce youth-related crime? That is joined-up thinking. Will the minister tell us what new resources will go into developing youth provision?

Young people are themselves trying to do things to improve the communities in which they live. I would like to pay tribute to the Braeview Academy community safety panel, which had its first official meeting yesterday. It involves young people identifying their priorities and doing something to achieve them. Their question was: \"Where are the resources to develop youth facilities in our area?\" I ask the minister the same question, because this is all about resources.

The report says that the action plans that are to be drawn up put the onus on individual agencies to

\"take ownership of those parts of the action plan which most relate to their core activities\".

Will the minister clarify whether that is to be achieved within existing resources? If that is the case, how will it be done?

The police play a key role in community safety, yet police force numbers—and I am not talking about civilian staff—have decreased during the past two years. The police have a role to play in making communities feel safer, but that requires additional police presence. Will the minister say whether police resources will be made available in addition to the 200 police officers who will be ring- fenced for work on the drugs problem?

The report is inoffensive, if a little vague. However, we should not raise expectations in our communities if we cannot deliver. Adequate resources must be made available and I have yet to hear that that will be the case.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:00:52.6390172+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1870E181P475C708378", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26845, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26846, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "QuestionHeading": "Agritay Ltd", "QuestionHeadingID": 26847, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 324.0, "DisplayOrder": 324.0, "ID": 26847, "ParentID": 26846 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robison, Shona", "ID": 1870, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Shona Robison", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Shona Robison: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 329.0, "ContributionID": 708378, "EditedText": "I thank the minister for his acknowledgement that interest rates and the value of the pound were factors identified by Agritay's management, as well as by the convener of Aberdeen economic development committee and by one of the Administration's back-bench members. What is he going to do about making representations to the UK Government about the value of the pound and the high level of interest rates?", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the minister for his acknowledgement that interest rates and the value of the pound were factors identified by Agritay's management, as well as by the convener of Aberdeen economic development committee and by one of the Administration's back-bench members. What is he going to do about making representations to the UK Government about the value of the pound and the high level of interest rates?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:00:52.6390172+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1870E181P475C708376", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26845, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26846, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "QuestionHeading": "Agritay Ltd", "QuestionHeadingID": 26847, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 324.0, "DisplayOrder": 324.0, "ID": 26847, "ParentID": 26846 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robison, Shona", "ID": 1870, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Shona Robison", "SpeakerDisplayName": "1. Shona Robison (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 325.0, "ContributionID": 708376, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it considers that the high value of sterling was a major factor in the recent job losses at Agritay Ltd in Dundee. (S1O-361) The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning (Nicol Stephen): The Scottish Executive deeply regrets the loss of jobs at Agritay Ltd. I spoke today to Cameron McLatchie, the head of British Polythene Ltd, which owns Agritay. He said that there were three main reasons for the problems. First, the company was on the verge of going into receivership when it was purchased three years ago. Agritay sells to United Kingdom chemical and fertiliser businesses, many of which have recently lost markets. Secondly, the company was exporting significantly to Europe, but that market has gone quiet and has become uncompetitive. Thirdly, and most significantly according to Mr McLatchie, many of the bags that are manufactured—it is essentially an industrial textile business—are now being brought in from the far east, the middle east and eastern Europe, where labour costs are much lower than in the UK. The company has lost £500,000 in the past 18 months. I appreciate that many businesses, particularly manufacturers that deal with Europe, including Agritay, have had concerns about the value of sterling, However, it is important to point out that the level of sterling did not prevent the level of Scottish manufactured exports growing by 8.3 per cent in real terms in the year to end March 1999.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it considers that the high value of sterling was a major factor in the recent job losses at Agritay Ltd in Dundee. (S1O-361) The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning (Nicol Stephen): The Scottish Executive deeply regrets the loss of jobs at Agritay Ltd. I spoke today to Cameron McLatchie, the head of British Polythene Ltd, which owns Agritay. He said that there were three main reasons for the problems. First, the company was on the verge of going into receivership when it was purchased three years ago. Agritay sells to United Kingdom chemical and fertiliser businesses, many of which have recently lost markets. Secondly, the company was exporting significantly to Europe, but that market has gone quiet and has become uncompetitive. Thirdly, and most significantly according to Mr McLatchie, many of the bags that are manufactured—it is essentially an industrial textile business—are now being brought in from the far east, the middle east and eastern Europe, where labour costs are much lower than in the UK. The company has lost £500,000 in the past 18 months.

I appreciate that many businesses, particularly manufacturers that deal with Europe, including Agritay, have had concerns about the value of sterling, However, it is important to point out that

the level of sterling did not prevent the level of Scottish manufactured exports growing by 8.3 per cent in real terms in the year to end March 1999.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:00:52.6390172+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1756E184P464C708513", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26870, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 561.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 561.0, "ID": 26870, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Grahame, Christine", "ID": 1756, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Christine Grahame", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Christine Grahame: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 628.0, "ContributionID": 708513, "EditedText": "I have two short questions for the minister. Will she address the funding problems of that day centre, which has such low demands? Furthermore, will she consider the wider matter of statutory rights to funding for day care centres?", "EditedTextHTML": "I have two short questions for the minister. Will she address the funding problems of that day centre, which has such low demands? Furthermore, will she consider the wider matter of statutory rights to funding for day care centres?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:01:23.8313068+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1773E197P503C708517", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26870, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 561.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 561.0, "ID": 26870, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hyslop, Fiona", "ID": 1773, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona Hyslop", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona Hyslop (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 639.0, "ContributionID": 708517, "EditedText": "Does Mr McNulty agree, however, that although the intention exists and people are proposing policy practice notes or whatever, the reality is—as Cathy Jamieson so eloquently said—that most voluntary organisations have to cope with one- year funding? That causes great administrative problems and anxiety, and increases costs.", "EditedTextHTML": "Does Mr McNulty agree, however, that although the intention exists and people are proposing policy practice notes or whatever, the reality is—as Cathy Jamieson so eloquently said—that most voluntary organisations have to cope with one- year funding? That causes great administrative problems and anxiety, and increases costs.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:01:23.8313068+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2133E222P520C708407", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26845, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26846, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "QuestionHeading": "Women Offenders", "QuestionHeadingID": 26854, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 393.0, "DisplayOrder": 393.0, "ID": 26854, "ParentID": 26846 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Matheson, Michael", "ID": 2133, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Matheson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "8. Michael Matheson (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 394.0, "ContributionID": 708407, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what discussions have taken place with the Scottish Prison Service in relation to women offenders. (S1O-360) The Deputy Minister for Justice (Angus MacKay): The Scottish Prison Service has made encouraging progress in improving conditions for women prisoners. It has also participated in the inter-agency forum set up last year to address the issues highlighted in \"A Safer Way\", the joint prisons and social work report on women offenders. Conditions for women offenders are one of many issues that the Minister for Justice, Jim Wallace, and I raised in our first meeting with the chief executive of the Prison Service more than two months ago.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what discussions have taken place with the Scottish Prison Service in relation to women offenders. (S1O-360) The Deputy Minister for Justice (Angus MacKay): The Scottish Prison Service has made encouraging progress in improving conditions for women prisoners. It has also participated in the inter-agency forum set up last year to address the issues highlighted in \"A Safer Way\", the joint prisons and social work report on women offenders.

Conditions for women offenders are one of many issues that the Minister for Justice, Jim Wallace, and I raised in our first meeting with the chief executive of the Prison Service more than two months ago.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:44.0221047+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1773E197P503C708535", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26870, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 561.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 561.0, "ID": 26870, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hyslop, Fiona", "ID": 1773, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona Hyslop", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona Hyslop: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 683.0, "ContributionID": 708535, "EditedText": "I agree with that. A motion that deals with that has been lodged and I hope that Dr Simpson will support it. Cathy Jamieson touched on the point that if we want front-line services to be met, we cannot have our voluntary sector organisations being tied up with bureaucracy and red tape. As someone who has come from the private sector, I say to members that, sometimes, best value does not come from competitive tendering but comes from the quality of relationships that have been built up between suppliers of services. Many people who are involved in the sector do not want to speak out because they do not want to bite the hand that feeds them. If providers of core services are in despair because they cannot provide the level of service that they want to because of a lack of funds, we are in a serious situation. We need to look at the social economy— what Des McNulty said on that was important. The attitude of the debate should be one of respect: health boards should provide rooms for voluntary sector organisations, for example, and the voluntary sector should be represented on the task forces and inquiries that are being set up. It has been suggested that the Government treats the voluntary sector with the same respect as it treats the Confederation of British Industry, but how many members of the Cabinet have included someone from the voluntary sector in their reviews? That is the real test. We want action in this area and we want it delivered with hard cash and by a positive attitude that can promote creative and innovative thinking. That will happen only in a sector that is confident and at ease with itself. The present climate of public sector funding is in danger of stifling that. We welcome the sentiment of the motion and we recognise the signal of intent but we are impatient for support and action.", "EditedTextHTML": "I agree with that. A motion that deals with that has been lodged and I hope that Dr Simpson will support it. Cathy Jamieson touched on the point that if we want front-line services to be met, we cannot have our voluntary sector organisations being tied up with bureaucracy and red tape.

As someone who has come from the private sector, I say to members that, sometimes, best value does not come from competitive tendering but comes from the quality of relationships that have been built up between suppliers of services. Many people who are involved in the sector do not want to speak out because they do not want to bite the hand that feeds them. If providers of core services are in despair because they cannot provide the level of service that they want to because of a lack of funds, we are in a serious situation. We need to look at the social economy— what Des McNulty said on that was important.

The attitude of the debate should be one of respect: health boards should provide rooms for voluntary sector organisations, for example, and the voluntary sector should be represented on the task forces and inquiries that are being set up. It has been suggested that the Government treats the voluntary sector with the same respect as it treats the Confederation of British Industry, but how many members of the Cabinet have included someone from the voluntary sector in their reviews? That is the real test.

We want action in this area and we want it delivered with hard cash and by a positive attitude that can promote creative and innovative thinking. That will happen only in a sector that is confident and at ease with itself. The present climate of public sector funding is in danger of stifling that. We welcome the sentiment of the motion and we recognise the signal of intent but we are impatient for support and action.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:01:31.7066757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1756E184P464C708296", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Grahame, Christine", "ID": 1756, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Christine Grahame", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 152.0, "ContributionID": 708296, "EditedText": "I shall refer to the document \"Safer communities in Scotland\", although I found the managerial jargon that it contains a bit of a headache. I hope that it is easier for the public at large to understand—maybe it is an age thing, but I used to speak English. I do not know to which language such jargon belongs. I refer to page 9 of that document. Under the heading \"Developing a successful partnership\", the document describes the findings of an audit, entitled \"Safety in Numbers\", that was carried out in England and Wales. One or two concerns are highlighted. The review \"found that many strategies do not reflect• local people's priorities; • are weak on the causes of crime; • fail to invest sufficiently in prevention\". I stop at those three concerns, as I want to focus on crime prevention—in particular, the prevention of youth crime. The minister said that the level of crime is falling, but he was referring to the level of reported crimes. I suspect that many people nowadays, for a variety of reasons, do not report criminal offences on the lower scale. They do not call the police, because the police do not have a swift response time. Youth crime affects all manner of communities,both urban and rural. I welcome the fact that this document recognises the differences between rural and urban communities in regard to the criminal activities that take place within them and the policing that is required. We have all seen examples of petty vandalism, from a wheelie bin being taken halfway down the street to the acts of major vandalism by young people that usually take place at dusk during the school holidays. The key to tackling youth crime, which has been identified by members today, is intervention at the earliest possible stage—and early means really early. Before I was a lawyer I was a schoolteacher. I remember seeing a five-year-old in the playground who was well on the way to a professional criminal career, and that is what happened. For some people, criminal behaviour starts pre-school, and we should identify the factors that make youngsters commit crimes. I am glad that you are back, Phil. We cannot look for the illusionary quick fix. Phil Gallie is a great tabloid man, looking for short, sharp shocks, shots across bows and all that stuff. Those would have some merit if they worked. They do not work, and they do not pretend to address the causes of juvenile crime.", "EditedTextHTML": "I shall refer to the document \"Safer communities in Scotland\", although I found the managerial jargon that it contains a bit of a headache. I hope that it is easier for the public at large to understand—maybe it is an age thing, but I used to speak English. I do not know to which language such jargon belongs.

I refer to page 9 of that document. Under the heading \"Developing a successful partnership\", the document describes the findings of an audit, entitled \"Safety in Numbers\", that was carried out in England and Wales. One or two concerns are highlighted. The review

\"found that many strategies do not reflect

• local people's priorities; • are weak on the causes of crime; • fail to invest sufficiently in prevention\". I stop at those three concerns, as I want to focus on crime prevention—in particular, the prevention of youth crime. The minister said that the level of crime is falling, but he was referring to the level of reported crimes. I suspect that many people nowadays, for a variety of reasons, do not report criminal offences on the lower scale. They do not call the police, because the police do not have a swift response time.

Youth crime affects all manner of communities,

both urban and rural. I welcome the fact that this document recognises the differences between rural and urban communities in regard to the criminal activities that take place within them and the policing that is required. We have all seen examples of petty vandalism, from a wheelie bin being taken halfway down the street to the acts of major vandalism by young people that usually take place at dusk during the school holidays.

The key to tackling youth crime, which has been identified by members today, is intervention at the earliest possible stage—and early means really early. Before I was a lawyer I was a schoolteacher. I remember seeing a five-year-old in the playground who was well on the way to a professional criminal career, and that is what happened. For some people, criminal behaviour starts pre-school, and we should identify the factors that make youngsters commit crimes.

I am glad that you are back, Phil. We cannot look for the illusionary quick fix. Phil Gallie is a great tabloid man, looking for short, sharp shocks, shots across bows and all that stuff. Those would have some merit if they worked. They do not work, and they do not pretend to address the causes of juvenile crime.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:01:13.4086808+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C708464", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26865, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 486.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26866, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 489.0, "QuestionHeading": "Education", "QuestionHeadingID": 26868, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 521.0, "DisplayOrder": 521.0, "ID": 26868, "ParentID": 26866 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "2. Nicola Sturgeon (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 522.0, "ContributionID": 708464, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what are the details of its education policy. (S1O-358) The Deputy Minister for Children and Education (Peter Peacock): Obviously, it would take much longer than the time that we have left this afternoon to set out all the details of the Government's policies on education, because of their width, depth and progressive nature. However, the details of our policy commitments were set out in our programme for government.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what are the details of its education policy. (S1O-358) The Deputy Minister for Children and Education (Peter Peacock): Obviously, it would take much longer than the time that we have left this afternoon to set out all the details of the Government's policies on education, because of their width, depth and progressive nature. However, the details of our policy commitments were set out in our programme for government.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:00:50.3207435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C708467", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26865, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 486.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26866, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 489.0, "QuestionHeading": "Education", "QuestionHeadingID": 26868, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 521.0, "DisplayOrder": 521.0, "ID": 26868, "ParentID": 26866 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 528.0, "ContributionID": 708467, "EditedText": "I note that the minister neatly sidestepped the issue of resources, in the same way as the Minister for Children and Education has chosen to do on every occasion so far. While we are on education resources, will the minister agree that this Labour Government is spending less on education, as a percentage of gross domestic product, than the Tories did in the last few years of their Administration? At the end of the comprehensive spending review period, the Government will be spending 4.9 per cent of GDP on education, which compares with the lowest percentage under the Tory Administration—4.9 per cent in 1995-96. Figures from the House of Commons library show that, although spending on education is planned to increase as a proportion of GDP during the CSR period, it will not return to the levels recorded in the early 1990s.", "EditedTextHTML": "I note that the minister neatly sidestepped the issue of resources, in the same way as the Minister for Children and Education has chosen to do on every occasion so far.

While we are on education resources, will the minister agree that this Labour Government is spending less on education, as a percentage of gross domestic product, than the Tories did in the last few years of their Administration? At the end of the comprehensive spending review period, the Government will be spending 4.9 per cent of GDP on education, which compares with the lowest percentage under the Tory Administration—4.9 per cent in 1995-96. Figures from the House of Commons library show that, although spending on education is planned to increase as a proportion of GDP during the CSR period, it will not return to the levels recorded in the early 1990s.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:00:50.3207435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708227", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 8.0, "ContributionID": 708227, "EditedText": "That is not a point of order.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is not a point of order.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C708229", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 13.0, "ContributionID": 708229, "EditedText": "Does the minister agree that the 108 premature deaths through drug abuse in Strathclyde alone—we do not yet have the figures for all of Scotland—represent 108 personal and family tragedies? The minister made a point about discarded needles and the people who deal in the drugs of death. Does he agree that the deaths are almost exclusively related to heroin and Temgesic and that we have to confront the fact that no one has died of cannabis consumption? Until we address the inconsistencies in our drugs laws, we will lose the battle with our young people, who are not listening to us or to our drugs strategy.", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the minister agree that the 108 premature deaths through drug abuse in Strathclyde alone—we do not yet have the figures for all of Scotland—represent 108 personal and family tragedies? The minister made a point about discarded needles and the people who deal in the drugs of death. Does he agree that the deaths are almost exclusively related to heroin and Temgesic and that we have to confront the fact that no one has died of cannabis consumption? Until we address the inconsistencies in our drugs laws, we will lose the battle with our young people, who are not listening to us or to our drugs strategy.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C708230", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Angus MacKay: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 15.0, "ContributionID": 708230, "EditedText": "Matters relating to the legalisation or otherwise of cannabis are reserved to Westminster. However, to pick up on Mr Sheridan's comments, one of the key things that has to be understood and that has to inform all our policy on tackling drug abuse is that there is not just one drug problem in Scotland, there is a multiplicity of drug problems. Whereas the kind of drug-related deaths that Mr Sheridan described have taken place in Strathclyde—and especially in certain parts of Strathclyde—drug-related deaths in other parts of Scotland are caused by the abuse of other drugs and other cocktails of drugs, often in specific ways and in conjunction with alcohol. In other words, there is no uniform drug problem across Scotland. We have to find solutions that tackle the way in which drugs come on to the market and that take into account the variety of drugs in their different strengths and in different cocktails. We must also put resources at the disposal of the appropriate agencies to help to prevent people from getting into the cycle of drug abuse and to help to rehabilitate people who may have had one of a variety of addictions. I accept that the vast majority of drug-related deaths in Strathclyde have been caused by the type of drug abuse that Mr Sheridan described. However, across Scotland, a wide variety of patterns of drug abuse has been related to drug deaths. We need a sophisticated approach.", "EditedTextHTML": "Matters relating to the legalisation or otherwise of cannabis are reserved to Westminster. However, to pick up on Mr Sheridan's comments, one of the key things that has to be understood and that has to inform all our policy on tackling drug abuse is that there is not just one drug problem in Scotland, there is a multiplicity of drug problems. Whereas the kind of drug-related deaths that Mr Sheridan described have taken place in Strathclyde—and especially in certain parts of Strathclyde—drug-related deaths in other parts of Scotland are caused by the abuse of other drugs and other cocktails of drugs, often in specific ways and in conjunction with alcohol.

In other words, there is no uniform drug problem across Scotland. We have to find solutions that tackle the way in which drugs come on to the market and that take into account the variety of drugs in their different strengths and in different cocktails. We must also put resources at the disposal of the appropriate agencies to help to prevent people from getting into the cycle of drug abuse and to help to rehabilitate people who may have had one of a variety of addictions.

I accept that the vast majority of drug-related deaths in Strathclyde have been caused by the type of drug abuse that Mr Sheridan described. However, across Scotland, a wide variety of patterns of drug abuse has been related to drug deaths. We need a sophisticated approach.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C708239", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Angus MacKay: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 33.0, "ContributionID": 708239, "EditedText": "I welcome that intervention, because it gives me the opportunity to make clear our cast-iron commitment to provide resources of approximately £4 million—the precise costing still needs to be determined—which will support 200 additional officers. Although we have not yet decided how those officers will be split between the national agency and local forces, it looks as though 100 additional officers will go into the central agency and the other 100 additional officers will go into local constabularies. We are working with drug action teams in every part of Scotland and with a wide range of organisations to implement our broader drugs strategy and to monitor results. We are investing additional money in drug action team support to assist in implementing the strategy. This week, their resources were doubled to £1 million for local implementation. We will also be seeking to maximise the role that community safety partnerships can play in tackling drug misuse. Furthermore, we have announced that £300,000 will be invested in central research on the effectiveness of drug prevention and rehabilitation treatment. The Scottish Parliament offers opportunities that have never been available in Scotland before. Not only do we have a Parliament again, but we have a Parliament with the power to set up procedures, which will be considerably more open, to develop and evaluate policy and practice. The Parliament provides the means to meet quickly and directly the challenges that we will face in the future. I hope that I have given a clear view of the future that we aim to create for crime prevention and community safety. That future will provide us with a unique opportunity to build a truly inclusive society for Scotland. I move,That the Parliament notes the continuing need to work together for a safer Scotland and acknowledges that the formation of powerful yet practical community safety partnerships, as promoted by the Scottish Executive, provides the means of sustained involvement from all members of our communities and the agencies which serve those communities.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome that intervention, because it gives me the opportunity to make clear our cast-iron commitment to provide resources of approximately £4 million—the precise costing still needs to be determined—which will support 200 additional officers. Although we have not yet decided how those officers will be split between the national agency and local forces, it looks as though 100 additional officers will go into the central agency and the other 100 additional officers will go into local constabularies.

We are working with drug action teams in every part of Scotland and with a wide range of organisations to implement our broader drugs strategy and to monitor results. We are investing additional money in drug action team support to assist in implementing the strategy. This week, their resources were doubled to £1 million for local implementation. We will also be seeking to maximise the role that community safety partnerships can play in tackling drug misuse. Furthermore, we have announced that £300,000 will be invested in central research on the effectiveness of drug prevention and rehabilitation treatment.

The Scottish Parliament offers opportunities that have never been available in Scotland before. Not only do we have a Parliament again, but we have a Parliament with the power to set up procedures, which will be considerably more open, to develop and evaluate policy and practice.

The Parliament provides the means to meet quickly and directly the challenges that we will face in the future. I hope that I have given a clear view of the future that we aim to create for crime prevention and community safety. That future will provide us with a unique opportunity to build a truly inclusive society for Scotland.

I move,

That the Parliament notes the continuing need to work together for a safer Scotland and acknowledges that the formation of powerful yet practical community safety partnerships, as promoted by the Scottish Executive, provides the means of sustained involvement from all members of our communities and the agencies which serve those communities.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C708242", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Angus MacKay: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 40.0, "ContributionID": 708242, "EditedText": "One of the reasons why we will not accept the amendment is that its terms are too narrow. The Conservative party's manifesto from the previous set of elections stated that \"public confidence in the police is crucial in the fight against crime\". That is only one part of the broad agenda under discussion today, which is why we will not accept the amendment.", "EditedTextHTML": "One of the reasons why we will not accept the amendment is that its terms are too narrow. The Conservative party's manifesto from the previous set of elections stated that

\"public confidence in the police is crucial in the fight against crime\".

That is only one part of the broad agenda under discussion today, which is why we will not accept the amendment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C708243", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 42.0, "ContributionID": 708243, "EditedText": "I hope to demonstrate that, although I recognise the minister's point, the public need to have confidence in and respect for the whole system—not just the police, but the courts and the procurator system. On that basis, I repeat that the minister must accept our amendment, because otherwise he is saying that those issues are of no importance to the Scottish police. I am sure that he does not believe that in his heart. Our amendment recognises the dangers of people losing confidence in our system of justice, with the potential for citizens to be driven to a point where they take the law into their own hands. I already hear people saying that that is scaremongering and a fanciful suggestion. However, there is evidence to back up my point. In Kilmarnock, Frank Gilliland perhaps went over the top in an attempt to protect his property, but he did not deserve to go to jail. A week or two ago, an Aberdeenshire farmer threw dung at youngsters who were terrorising his six children and invalid wife. The farmer ended up in court, but those who were terrorising him did not. Perhaps more serious is the case of the Norfolk farmer who tragically killed an intruder. What pressures was that farmer under at the time and how much did his lack of faith in the justice system lead to that terrible situation? I accept that there have to be community partnerships and community involvement. I welcomed the neighbourhood watch schemes, which played a part in attempting to contain local crime levels.", "EditedTextHTML": "I hope to demonstrate that, although I recognise the minister's point, the public need to have confidence in and respect for the whole system—not just the police, but the courts and the procurator system. On that basis, I repeat that the minister must accept our amendment, because otherwise he is saying that those issues are of no importance to the Scottish police. I am sure that he does not believe that in his heart.

Our amendment recognises the dangers of people losing confidence in our system of justice, with the potential for citizens to be driven to a point where they take the law into their own hands. I already hear people saying that that is scaremongering and a fanciful suggestion. However, there is evidence to back up my point. In Kilmarnock, Frank Gilliland perhaps went over the top in an attempt to protect his property, but he did not deserve to go to jail. A week or two ago, an Aberdeenshire farmer threw dung at youngsters who were terrorising his six children and invalid wife. The farmer ended up in court, but those who were terrorising him did not. Perhaps more serious is the case of the Norfolk farmer who tragically killed an intruder. What pressures was that farmer under at the time and how much did his lack of faith in the justice system lead to that terrible situation?

I accept that there have to be community partnerships and community involvement. I welcomed the neighbourhood watch schemes, which played a part in attempting to contain local crime levels.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2044E178P334C708244", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jenkins, Ian", "ID": 2044, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ian Jenkins", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ian Jenkins (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 44.0, "ContributionID": 708244, "EditedText": "Your amendment cuts out initiatives that you now say are worthwhile. I could have accepted your amendment if it had been an add-on to the motion, but I cannot do that because it disregards valuable work on community partnerships.", "EditedTextHTML": "Your amendment cuts out initiatives that you now say are worthwhile. I could have accepted your amendment if it had been an add-on to the motion, but I cannot do that because it disregards valuable work on community partnerships.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C708250", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Angus MacKay: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 56.0, "ContributionID": 708250, "EditedText": "Does Mr Gallie recognise that staffing in the Scottish police forces—civilian support staff and police officers—has risen over the period during which he says the number has declined, from 19,452 in 1998 to 19,509 in the current year? Civilianisation of core staff is a key element in trying to get additional officers out into the communities and into detecting and resolving crime. That is to be welcomed; it represents an entirely different picture from that portrayed by Mr Gallie.", "EditedTextHTML": "Does Mr Gallie recognise that staffing in the Scottish police forces—civilian support staff and police officers—has risen over the period during which he says the number has declined, from 19,452 in 1998 to 19,509 in the current year? Civilianisation of core staff is a key element in trying to get additional officers out into the communities and into detecting and resolving crime. That is to be welcomed; it represents an entirely different picture from that portrayed by Mr Gallie.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C708257", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 70.0, "ContributionID": 708257, "EditedText": "I certainly will not join Mr Sheridan in that, but I join him in having concerns for young people. I believe that the Conservative Government did a heck of a lot to improve the lot of young people, in education and in other ways. We took a stand on benefits. The Labour party criticised that stand at one time, but I suspect that if Mr Sheridan ever reached a position of authority, he, like the Labour party, would backtrack if any attempts were made to change the situation.", "EditedTextHTML": "I certainly will not join Mr Sheridan in that, but I join him in having concerns for young people. I believe that the Conservative Government did a heck of a lot to improve the lot of young people, in education and in other ways. We took a stand on benefits. The Labour party criticised that stand at one time, but I suspect that if Mr Sheridan ever reached a position of authority, he, like the Labour party, would backtrack if any attempts were made to change the situation.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2188E70P92C708258", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harper, Robin", "ID": 2188, "PartyName": "Scottish Green Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Green", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robin Harper", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robin Harper rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 72.0, "ContributionID": 708258, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C708261", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 78.0, "ContributionID": 708261, "EditedText": "I promised to give way to Mr Harper.", "EditedTextHTML": "I promised to give way to Mr Harper.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C708264", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Keith Raffan (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 84.0, "ContributionID": 708264, "EditedText": "I agree with Mr Gallie that drugs are an extremely serious problem in prisons. I recently visited Saughton prison and saw just how serious the problem there is. Does he agree that we must ensure that prisoners who have the guts to try to get off drugs in prison have counselling, full support and rehabilitation and that the various fellowships, such as Narcotics Anonymous and Alcoholics Anonymous, are allowed into prisons? Prisoners need such support and counselling, which they are not getting at the moment.", "EditedTextHTML": "I agree with Mr Gallie that drugs are an extremely serious problem in prisons. I recently visited Saughton prison and saw just how serious the problem there is. Does he agree that we must ensure that prisoners who have the guts to try to get off drugs in prison have counselling, full support and rehabilitation and that the various fellowships, such as Narcotics Anonymous and Alcoholics Anonymous, are allowed into prisons? Prisoners need such support and counselling,

which they are not getting at the moment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C708267", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 90.0, "ContributionID": 708267, "EditedText": "That is the inevitable path. There is a link. People start on softer drugs, work their way through the leisure drugs, and all too frequently end on the heroin trail.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is the inevitable path. There is a link. People start on softer drugs, work their way through the leisure drugs, and all too frequently end on the heroin trail.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C708272", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 100.0, "ContributionID": 708272, "EditedText": "They are not on your left any more, Phil.", "EditedTextHTML": "They are not on your left any more, Phil.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C708273", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 102.0, "ContributionID": 708273, "EditedText": "That is welcome. It is good that they have seen the light, Tommy. Perhaps one day there will be a wee halo round your head when you, too, go down the path of righteousness.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is welcome. It is good that they have seen the light, Tommy. Perhaps one day there will be a wee halo round your head when you, too, go down the path of righteousness.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C708278", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 112.0, "ContributionID": 708278, "EditedText": "I am not aware of a time limit.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am not aware of a time limit.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C708280", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 116.0, "ContributionID": 708280, "EditedText": "All right then.The public see the problems in our prisons, and problems with rewards and with sentencing. They cannot understand why people who are sentenced to four years in prison come out after two. We must examine that issue. I welcome the minister's recently announced intention to consider drug confiscation and the policies that are pursued in Ireland. If he is able to move the Executive into taking action on such policies, he will do much to improve the situation on drugs in Scotland and will remove some of the drug barons' standing in society, which we must erode.", "EditedTextHTML": "All right then.

The public see the problems in our prisons, and problems with rewards and with sentencing. They cannot understand why people who are sentenced to four years in prison come out after two. We must examine that issue.

I welcome the minister's recently announced intention to consider drug confiscation and the policies that are pursued in Ireland. If he is able to move the Executive into taking action on such policies, he will do much to improve the situation on drugs in Scotland and will remove some of the drug barons' standing in society, which we must erode.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C708286", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Angus MacKay: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 129.0, "ContributionID": 708286, "EditedText": "I am grateful to Roseanna for giving me an opportunity to respond to a number of her points. I am sure that she is aware that the Scottish Executive is participating in the Scottish partnership on domestic violence and in the on-going consultation. We are playing an active role and I welcome her comments.It is right to say that there is a high volume of demand for CCTV, but that relates to the success of the CCTV schemes in 99 per cent of the areas in which they have been introduced. On a note of caution, I do not think that it is entirely accurate to say that CCTV is seen as a replacement for officers on the beat. Police forces are clear that the implementation of CCTV has allowed for more effective use of officer time because they can be directed through command and control structures to particular areas. CCTV has allowed the police to free resources to be used elsewhere. That important point is perhaps not part of the public's awareness. CCTV schemes that are funded and authorised by the Scottish Executive are governed by a code of practice. All users are bound to sign up to that code as a condition of receipt of grant. I have some information on community safety partnerships to hand. There are 32 partnerships at present and they have recently been surveyed. We will consider their long-term effectiveness through a proper system of audit. It is worth making the point that all the partnerships that have started to bed down have tried to do so with a proper reporting relationship direct to the Scottish Executive. We want to ensure that best practice is replicated in all the existing partnerships, and in the areas where they are not properly up and running at the moment.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful to Roseanna for giving me an opportunity to respond to a number of her points. I am sure that she is aware that the Scottish Executive is participating in the Scottish partnership on domestic violence and in the on-going consultation. We are playing an active role

and I welcome her comments.

It is right to say that there is a high volume of demand for CCTV, but that relates to the success of the CCTV schemes in 99 per cent of the areas in which they have been introduced. On a note of caution, I do not think that it is entirely accurate to say that CCTV is seen as a replacement for officers on the beat.

Police forces are clear that the implementation of CCTV has allowed for more effective use of officer time because they can be directed through command and control structures to particular areas. CCTV has allowed the police to free resources to be used elsewhere. That important point is perhaps not part of the public's awareness. CCTV schemes that are funded and authorised by the Scottish Executive are governed by a code of practice. All users are bound to sign up to that code as a condition of receipt of grant.

I have some information on community safety partnerships to hand. There are 32 partnerships at present and they have recently been surveyed. We will consider their long-term effectiveness through a proper system of audit. It is worth making the point that all the partnerships that have started to bed down have tried to do so with a proper reporting relationship direct to the Scottish Executive. We want to ensure that best practice is replicated in all the existing partnerships, and in the areas where they are not properly up and running at the moment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1863E284P532C708287", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Cunningham, Roseanna", "ID": 1863, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Perth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Roseanna Cunningham", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Roseanna Cunningham: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 131.0, "ContributionID": 708287, "EditedText": "I am grateful for the minister's remarks. I will ask him for more detail on how the Executive plans to monitor the partnerships. I do not disagree with what he says about CCTV, but the issue is that whereas the police see it as an operational tool, the public often sees it as a second-best option. We must remember that it is possible for our perceptions of an appropriate way to proceed to run ahead of the public's—not just in this area, but in many others too. We run into that all the time and we need to learn how to take the public with us to ensure that people's confidence is not dented. Many of the demands for CCTV—particularly in smaller communities—arise because people feel that they have insufficient policing. They may be right or wrong in feeling that, but that is how the demands come about. I will return to my remarks on domestic violence in Fife. The subject is important, because it is about crime in the home. Effective police and social work intervention undoubtedly has a deterrent effect and it is essential that such successful programmes are enabled across Scotland and not confined to one or two areas. There is significant cross-party consensus on this matter. We agree about the need for emergency residential accommodation, safe homes, crisis telephone lines and for all the other things that have been flagged up as absolutely necessary to tackle this particular crime. I hope that practical measures such as those will be introduced as part of the community safety initiative. The Crime and Disorder Act 1998 introduced anti-social behaviour orders, which it was hoped would be an effective tool in the community armoury. I hope that the minister will be able to indicate the extent to which they have been used by local authorities in Scotland since their inception. I ask, because at a recent meeting with officials from Perthshire Housing Association, it was suggested that local authorities' resource difficulties mean that the orders are not being used. If that is true, it is a great pity. Can community safety partnerships increase the number of anti-social behaviour orders and the number of individuals willing to come forward as witnesses? No matter what has been done so far to deal with anti-social neighbours, getting people to come forward remains one of the major stumbling blocks. The new mechanisms were meant to offer more flexibility than the alternative of eviction, but that does not seem to be happening in practice. We still have the cumbersome procedures that were meant—in part—to be replaced. I hope that there is some monitoring of the use and effectiveness of anti-social behaviour orders and some reconsideration of the difficulties that local authorities may be experiencing obtaining them. If there are difficulties, will the minister commit himself to ensuring that the problems are addressed? The minister referred to drugs. There is cross- party agreement about the significant problems of drugs on our streets. I would distinguish—as I think would the minister—between the dealers and the users. The approach ought to be tough on dealers, and tough on the causes of users, but more constructive about the users themselves. The SNP has talked about drugs courts as a way of tackling the drug-related crime that users indulge in to finance their habits. I hope that whatever proposals are made will distinguish between dealers and users so that some of the measures that were referred to earlier can be introduced—even in prison. I certainly wish to associate myself with the remarks made by Mr Raffan, who obviously wants to speak again.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful for the minister's remarks. I will ask him for more detail on how the Executive plans to monitor the partnerships. I do not disagree with what he says about CCTV, but the issue is that whereas the police see it as an operational tool, the public often sees it as a second-best option. We must remember that it is possible for our perceptions of an appropriate way to proceed to run ahead of the public's—not just in this area, but in many others too. We run into that all the time and we need to learn how to take the public with us to ensure that people's confidence is not dented. Many of the demands for CCTV—particularly in smaller communities—arise because people feel that they have insufficient policing. They may be right or wrong in feeling that, but that is how the demands come about.

I will return to my remarks on domestic violence in Fife. The subject is important, because it is about crime in the home. Effective police and social work intervention undoubtedly has a deterrent effect and it is essential that such successful programmes are enabled across Scotland and not confined to one or two areas. There is significant cross-party consensus on this matter. We agree about the need for emergency residential accommodation, safe homes, crisis telephone lines and for all the other things that have been flagged up as absolutely necessary to tackle this particular crime. I hope that practical measures such as those will be introduced as part of the community safety initiative.

The Crime and Disorder Act 1998 introduced anti-social behaviour orders, which it was hoped would be an effective tool in the community armoury. I hope that the minister will be able to indicate the extent to which they have been used by local authorities in Scotland since their inception. I ask, because at a recent meeting with officials from Perthshire Housing Association, it was suggested that local authorities' resource difficulties mean that the orders are not being used. If that is true, it is a great pity.

Can community safety partnerships increase the number of anti-social behaviour orders and the number of individuals willing to come forward as witnesses? No matter what has been done so far to deal with anti-social neighbours, getting people to come forward remains one of the major stumbling blocks. The new mechanisms were meant to offer more flexibility than the alternative of eviction, but that does not seem to be happening in practice. We still have the cumbersome procedures that were meant—in part—to be replaced. I hope that there is some monitoring of the use and effectiveness of anti-social behaviour orders and some reconsideration of the difficulties that local authorities may be experiencing obtaining them. If there are difficulties, will the minister commit himself to ensuring that the problems are addressed?

The minister referred to drugs. There is cross- party agreement about the significant problems of drugs on our streets. I would distinguish—as I think would the minister—between the dealers and the users. The approach ought to be tough on dealers, and tough on the causes of users, but more constructive about the users themselves.

The SNP has talked about drugs courts as a way of tackling the drug-related crime that users indulge in to finance their habits. I hope that whatever proposals are made will distinguish between dealers and users so that some of the measures that were referred to earlier can be introduced—even in prison. I certainly wish to associate myself with the remarks made by Mr Raffan, who obviously wants to speak again.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C708288", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 133.0, "ContributionID": 708288, "EditedText": "Does Ms Cunningham agree that it makes no sense to send drug addicts who are guilty of minor offences to prison, where drugs may be more easily available than they are on the street? It makes much more sense to send them to treatment centres—if the beds are available. It is a scandal that there are only 120 residential beds in Scotland at the moment. After treatment, users can return to the community—hopefully in full mental and physical health—and, in recovery, contribute to the community. That is more cost effective than sending addicts to prison.", "EditedTextHTML": "Does Ms Cunningham agree that it makes no sense to send drug addicts who are guilty of minor offences to prison, where drugs may be more easily available than they are on the street? It makes much more sense to send them to treatment centres—if the beds are available. It is a scandal that there are only 120 residential beds in Scotland at the moment. After treatment, users can return to the community—hopefully in

full mental and physical health—and, in recovery, contribute to the community. That is more cost effective than sending addicts to prison.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2080E130P217C708292", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lamont, Johann", "ID": 2080, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Pollok" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Johann Lamont", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Johann Lamont (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 142.0, "ContributionID": 708292, "EditedText": "come to this debate with some trepidation and anxiety. It is my view that there are no easy fixes in this debate—there are no easy answers. People who seem so certain on subjects such as this— subjects that are so complex—always worry me. I have been on a steep learning curve since becoming an MSP, and the issues of crime and community safety have been raised time and again by my constituents. They are the issues that are raised most consistently by victims of crime and—more often—by people who live in communities that experience disorder and harassment by young people. As the minister said, it is clear that crime is linked to poverty and deprivation; but it is also true that the victims of crime and community disorder are often the most vulnerable and poorest people in society. The challenge for us is to recognise the importance of joined-up action between and across communities and Government. I want to raise two important issues. The first is drugs. A report by the greater Glasgow drugs action team has shown that experimenting with illegal drugs is equally common in all communities, but that people who live in the most disadvantaged parts of greater Glasgow are more than 30 times more likely to be admitted to hospital in a drugs- misuse-related emergency than those who live in the most affluent areas. Everyone experiments, but the poor die. We must also recognise that youngsters from families in which there are serious addiction problems are experimenting with drugs. The problem is related to poverty and I welcome the role of the Social Inclusion, Housing and Voluntary Sector Committee in tackling it. The statistics are frightening, and represent tragic events for many families. I welcome the attack on drug dealers and the establishment of a drug enforcement agency. The report also surveyed people in Glasgow who inject drugs. They reported that they had—on average—committed 26 offences in the previous month in order to feed their habits. While we take on the dealers, we must also address the rest of the problem: we must recognise that addiction- driven criminal acts will stop only when addiction stops. The second issue that I want to raise is youth crime and disorder, which is consistently raised with me by elderly people. It ranges from low-level nuisance behaviour to under-age drinking, harassment and the targeting of older people. It can cause horrific stress and distress. To some young people, it is a sport and they do it because they have the power to do it. It is a form of bullying and it is the same kind of use of power that we see in domestic violence. It is unacceptable. We must recognise that that kind of behaviour exists. It must be addressed. I spoke to a member of the children's panel for my area yesterday and she told me that referrals to the panel are increasingly serious. That makes me anxious. One of the strengths of the children's panel system is that it can intervene early. It can deal with and support youngsters who are beginning to get into troubling behaviour. If the referrals are serious, the youngsters must be much further along the road and it is unlikely that they can be helped. The panel member also reported that most cases are still about care and protection. There are questions of physical abuse, neglect and sexual abuse of young people. We should remember that the most dangerous place that many of our children can be is their own home. I welcome the overall strategy that the Government has presented. We must strike a balance between technological developments in CCTV and community safety initiatives and forums such as the one in my area. Communities often seek low-level, person-centred initiatives that can make a real difference to the lives of ordinary people. We must have confidence in the judicial system and we should talk to children's panels to examine how they can be supported in their positive work with young people. It is important to work with young people. They are often stigmatised—they are seen on a street corner and immediately regarded as the problem.", "EditedTextHTML": "come to this debate with some trepidation and anxiety. It is my view that there are no easy fixes in this debate—there are no easy answers. People who seem so certain on subjects such as this— subjects that are so complex—always worry me.

I have been on a steep learning curve since becoming an MSP, and the issues of crime and community safety have been raised time and again by my constituents. They are the issues that are raised most consistently by victims of crime and—more often—by people who live in communities that experience disorder and harassment by young people.

As the minister said, it is clear that crime is linked to poverty and deprivation; but it is also true that the victims of crime and community disorder are often the most vulnerable and poorest people in society. The challenge for us is to recognise the importance of joined-up action between and across communities and Government.

I want to raise two important issues. The first is drugs. A report by the greater Glasgow drugs action team has shown that experimenting with illegal drugs is equally common in all communities, but that people who live in the most disadvantaged parts of greater Glasgow are more than 30 times more likely to be admitted to hospital in a drugs- misuse-related emergency than those who live in the most affluent areas. Everyone experiments, but the poor die.

We must also recognise that youngsters from families in which there are serious addiction problems are experimenting with drugs. The problem is related to poverty and I welcome the role of the Social Inclusion, Housing and Voluntary Sector Committee in tackling it. The statistics are frightening, and represent tragic events for many families. I welcome the attack on drug dealers and the establishment of a drug enforcement agency.

The report also surveyed people in Glasgow who inject drugs. They reported that they had—on average—committed 26 offences in the previous month in order to feed their habits. While we take on the dealers, we must also address the rest of the problem: we must recognise that addiction- driven criminal acts will stop only when addiction stops.

The second issue that I want to raise is youth crime and disorder, which is consistently raised with me by elderly people. It ranges from low-level nuisance behaviour to under-age drinking, harassment and the targeting of older people. It can cause horrific stress and distress. To some young people, it is a sport and they do it because they have the power to do it. It is a form of bullying and it is the same kind of use of power that we see

in domestic violence. It is unacceptable. We must recognise that that kind of behaviour exists. It must be addressed.

I spoke to a member of the children's panel for my area yesterday and she told me that referrals to the panel are increasingly serious. That makes me anxious. One of the strengths of the children's panel system is that it can intervene early. It can deal with and support youngsters who are beginning to get into troubling behaviour. If the referrals are serious, the youngsters must be much further along the road and it is unlikely that they can be helped.

The panel member also reported that most cases are still about care and protection. There are questions of physical abuse, neglect and sexual abuse of young people. We should remember that the most dangerous place that many of our children can be is their own home.

I welcome the overall strategy that the Government has presented. We must strike a balance between technological developments in CCTV and community safety initiatives and forums such as the one in my area. Communities often seek low-level, person-centred initiatives that can make a real difference to the lives of ordinary people. We must have confidence in the judicial system and we should talk to children's panels to examine how they can be supported in their positive work with young people.

It is important to work with young people. They are often stigmatised—they are seen on a street corner and immediately regarded as the problem.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C708293", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 144.0, "ContributionID": 708293, "EditedText": "I thank the member for giving way as I appreciate that she is near the end of her speech. Will she join me in criticising the local authority in Glasgow for the dearth of youth services in parts of her constituency, in particular in Pollok ward, which I represent on the city council? Pollok has a population of 7,500 and has no community centre—both were closed in 1997 by the city council. Will Johann Lamont join me in criticising those actions?", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the member for giving way as I appreciate that she is near the end of her speech. Will she join me in criticising the local authority in Glasgow for the dearth of youth services in parts of her constituency, in particular in Pollok ward, which I represent on the city council? Pollok has a population of 7,500 and has no community centre—both were closed in 1997 by the city council. Will Johann Lamont join me in criticising those actions?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2080E130P217C708294", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lamont, Johann", "ID": 2080, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Pollok" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Johann Lamont", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Johann Lamont: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 146.0, "ContributionID": 708294, "EditedText": "The Labour Government has recognised, as I do, that people are in positions where they must make hard decisions. Local councils have also recognised that. We know the difficulties that local councils have faced in the recent past. We also recognise that things are moving forward through initiatives being taken to support local government in recognition of the particular problems that Glasgow faced as a result of council reorganisation. Changes will be made. My experience of working with young people shows that they often cannot use facilities in communities because other young people prevent them from doing so. There is a kind of bullying that is complex and requires more than throwing community workers at it, although they have an important role to play. We must talk to young people through the youth parliament and youth network organisations such as the one in Glasgow. We must talk to young people who care about their communities and about how they are presented—the young people whose agenda is to deal with and challenge the other young people in the communities who cause as many problems for young people as they do for the elderly. We must talk to young people not only about the problems they create or are perceived as creating, but about their potential and their agenda on what they think Scotland can do for them. That will ensure that our communities no longer suffer the blight that they now endure. Young people know about community safety as well as anyone else. It is essential to any strategy that we work with them and support them in initiatives that will make a difference to their future.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Labour Government has recognised, as I do, that people are in positions where they must make hard decisions. Local councils have also recognised that. We know the difficulties that local councils have faced in the recent past. We also recognise that things are moving forward through initiatives being taken to support local government in recognition of the particular problems that Glasgow faced as a result of council reorganisation. Changes will be made.

My experience of working with young people shows that they often cannot use facilities in communities because other young people prevent them from doing so. There is a kind of bullying that is complex and requires more than throwing community workers at it, although they have an important role to play.

We must talk to young people through the youth parliament and youth network organisations such as the one in Glasgow. We must talk to young people who care about their communities and about how they are presented—the young people whose agenda is to deal with and challenge the other young people in the communities who cause as many problems for young people as they do for the elderly.

We must talk to young people not only about the problems they create or are perceived as creating, but about their potential and their agenda on what they think Scotland can do for them. That will ensure that our communities no longer suffer the blight that they now endure.

Young people know about community safety as well as anyone else. It is essential to any strategy that we work with them and support them in initiatives that will make a difference to their future.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2013E134P232C708335", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jackson, Gordon", "ID": 2013, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Govan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Gordon Jackson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Gordon Jackson (Glasgow Govan) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 237.0, "ContributionID": 708335, "EditedText": "Most people believe in crime prevention. The only people I have met who do not are criminals and my bank manager. The trouble is that there are no easy fixes and no easy answers—Johann Lamont is right about that—and we disagree on how to tackle the problem. One approach, which I detected in the speeches by Phil Gallie and John Young, is to blame the courts for being too soft and demand that more people be locked up, and locked up for longer. I believe in locking people up and that retribution is important for society. However, it is no use for the prevention of crime. The Home Office commissioned studies for the previous Government, which made it clear that detention is of minimal relevance to crime prevention. It wastes a lot of money and does not cut crime. If Phil does not believe that, he should consider the United States of America, where incredible numbers of people are locked up with no effect on the crime rate.", "EditedTextHTML": "Most people believe in crime prevention. The only people I have met who do not are criminals and my bank manager.

The trouble is that there are no easy fixes and no easy answers—Johann Lamont is right about that—and we disagree on how to tackle the problem. One approach, which I detected in the speeches by Phil Gallie and John Young, is to blame the courts for being too soft and demand that more people be locked up, and locked up for longer.

I believe in locking people up and that retribution is important for society. However, it is no use for the prevention of crime. The Home Office commissioned studies for the previous Government, which made it clear that detention is of minimal relevance to crime prevention. It wastes a lot of money and does not cut crime. If Phil does not believe that, he should consider the United States of America, where incredible numbers of people are locked up with no effect on the crime rate.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C708299", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 158.0, "ContributionID": 708299, "EditedText": "Will Christine Grahame give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Christine Grahame give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2099E29P51C708308", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Young, John", "ID": 2099, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Young", "SpeakerDisplayName": "John Young: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 178.0, "ContributionID": 708308, "EditedText": "I have no intention of eating humble pie. As a former Tory MP, Keith Raffan knows as well as I do that the Tories had considerable success in the past on this. He chose to leave our party—", "EditedTextHTML": "I have no intention of eating humble pie. As a former Tory MP, Keith Raffan knows as well as I do that the Tories had considerable success in the past on this. He chose to leave our party—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C708309", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 180.0, "ContributionID": 708309, "EditedText": "I saw the light.", "EditedTextHTML": "I saw the light.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C708330", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 225.0, "ContributionID": 708330, "EditedText": "I am not naive enough to suspect that overnight we could stop drugs getting into prisons. However, at the moment there is an unacceptable level of drug taking in prison. We must move to counter that.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am not naive enough to suspect that overnight we could stop drugs getting into prisons. However, at the moment there is an unacceptable level of drug taking in prison. We must move to counter that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C708325", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Keith Raffan (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 215.0, "ContributionID": 708325, "EditedText": "Duncan McNeil made a fair point. I was going to start by apologising to the chamber and the minister for not being here at the beginning of the debate. I apologise for that unintentional discourtesy. I was in the middle of preparing a speech for this afternoon's voluntary sector debate and I did not realise—until I saw and heard the minister on the monitor—that he was going to talk so much about drugs issues. That is why I want to speak in this debate. I will be brief but, as my party's drugs spokesman, I want to comment on what he said. Military terminology has now become customary in the debate about tackling drug misuse, but talk about wars on drugs, fighting battles and so on is not helpful; it does not make for an intelligent and thoughtful approach to this serious, global problem, which is spreading throughout the land. There are drugs problems in Caithness, in the small fishing villages around the Broch, as Fraserburgh is known. When I was a parliamentary candidate there 25 years ago, the main problem was alcohol; now it is pure heroin. If we talk about a war, we may have to acknowledge that we may lose it. That is how serious the situation is. We must take an intelligent and thoughtful approach to tackling drug misuse. I have differences with the UK Government on its strategy. The Government is concentrating on cutting supply—I accept that that is essential—but it is not doing enough to cut demand. Three quarters of the £1.4 billion that is spent on tackling drug misuse in the UK is spent on detection, on the courts and so on and only a quarter is spent on treatment, rehabilitation and education. It is always easy to advocate increased public spending and I am not saying that less should be spent on cutting supply, but we must spend a lot more on cutting demand. We must spend more on treatment and rehabilitation. It is a scandal that, in Scotland, we have only 120 residential beds for drug addicts. In the Fife part of my regional constituency, there are at least 5,000 drug addicts. I am not soft on drugs. When I was in the House of Commons, after being lucky enough to secure a high place on the private members ballot, I took through the Controlled Drugs (Penalties) Act 1985. I did that with all-party support, including the support of Scottish nationalists—it was Margaret Ewing, I think—and Welsh nationalist Dafydd Wigley. I had the support of the Labour party through Frank Field and other members of the Tory party—I was a Tory then.", "EditedTextHTML": "Duncan McNeil made a fair point. I was going to start by apologising to the chamber and the minister for not being here at the beginning of the debate. I apologise for that unintentional discourtesy. I was in the middle of preparing a speech for this afternoon's voluntary sector debate and I did not realise—until I saw and heard the minister on the monitor—that he was going to talk so much about drugs issues. That is why I want to speak in this debate. I will be brief but, as my party's drugs spokesman, I want to comment on what he said.

Military terminology has now become customary in the debate about tackling drug misuse, but talk about wars on drugs, fighting battles and so on is not helpful; it does not make for an intelligent and thoughtful approach to this serious, global problem, which is spreading throughout the land. There are drugs problems in Caithness, in the small fishing villages around the Broch, as Fraserburgh is known. When I was a parliamentary candidate there 25 years ago, the main problem was alcohol; now it is pure heroin.

If we talk about a war, we may have to acknowledge that we may lose it. That is how serious the situation is. We must take an intelligent and thoughtful approach to tackling drug misuse. I have differences with the UK Government on its strategy. The Government is concentrating on cutting supply—I accept that that is essential—but it is not doing enough to cut demand. Three quarters of the £1.4 billion that is spent on tackling drug misuse in the UK is spent on detection, on the courts and so on and only a quarter is spent on treatment, rehabilitation and education.

It is always easy to advocate increased public spending and I am not saying that less should be spent on cutting supply, but we must spend a lot more on cutting demand. We must spend more on treatment and rehabilitation. It is a scandal that, in Scotland, we have only 120 residential beds for drug addicts. In the Fife part of my regional constituency, there are at least 5,000 drug addicts.

I am not soft on drugs. When I was in the House of Commons, after being lucky enough to secure a high place on the private members ballot, I took through the Controlled Drugs (Penalties) Act 1985.

I did that with all-party support, including the support of Scottish nationalists—it was Margaret Ewing, I think—and Welsh nationalist Dafydd Wigley. I had the support of the Labour party through Frank Field and other members of the Tory party—I was a Tory then.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C708327", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 219.0, "ContributionID": 708327, "EditedText": "At least I am honest about my dubious past. With the support of every party in the House of Commons, the act increased the maximum sentence for trafficking in class A drugs from 14 years to life. That was important. I played a lesser part in passing the Drug Trafficking Offences Act 1986, which deals with the law and order side of this matter. In policy and thinking, I hope that I have developed from there. Those were important measures, but we must now emphasise the treatment and rehabilitation side. My party has advocated a royal commission on drugs. I would prefer it to be a royal commission on addiction, for precisely the reasons that have been stated. We cannot consider drugs in isolation and we must take into account the so-called gateway drugs—in Scotland, alcohol and cannabis and marijuana are among the leading ones. I have serious reservations about the decriminalisation of cannabis and marijuana. Some members will probably find that disappointing, but I will explain my position. Treatment centres in the UK have, in the past three years, recorded a significant increase in the number of young people going in for treatment because of dependence on cannabis and marijuana. They are admitting themselves or being admitted by their parents, who are worried that they will go on to take harder drugs. We must take note of that. I have attended open meetings of Narcotics Anonymous and Alcoholics Anonymous and have huge respect for what those fellowships do to help addicts and alcoholics into recovery. They do not have a public profile and it is not for me to give them that or to say what their views are. However, none of the addicts in recovery to whom I have spoken favoured the decriminalisation of cannabis and marijuana. They felt that they had been brought up in a drugs culture. They started to use alcohol at a young age, went on to cannabis and marijuana and then graduated—the terminology is unfortunate—to harder drugs. Prisons have been mentioned. Phil is extraordinarily naive if he thinks that we can stop drugs getting into prisons. I was at Saughton recently and at Craiginches relatively recently, where I spoke to the governors, who are very able and enlightened men. They said that if we introduced closed visits there would be a riot—it is as simple as that. There are closed-visits facilities for people who are caught passing drugs—which is very difficult to stop—but at Craiginches the ordinary visitors facilities are intolerably cramped.", "EditedTextHTML": "At least I am honest about my dubious past. With the support of every party in the House of Commons, the act increased the maximum sentence for trafficking in class A drugs from 14 years to life. That was important. I played a lesser part in passing the Drug Trafficking Offences Act 1986, which deals with the law and order side of this matter.

In policy and thinking, I hope that I have developed from there. Those were important measures, but we must now emphasise the treatment and rehabilitation side. My party has advocated a royal commission on drugs. I would prefer it to be a royal commission on addiction, for precisely the reasons that have been stated. We cannot consider drugs in isolation and we must take into account the so-called gateway drugs—in Scotland, alcohol and cannabis and marijuana are among the leading ones.

I have serious reservations about the decriminalisation of cannabis and marijuana. Some members will probably find that disappointing, but I will explain my position. Treatment centres in the UK have, in the past three years, recorded a significant increase in the number of young people going in for treatment because of dependence on cannabis and marijuana. They are admitting themselves or being admitted by their parents, who are worried that they will go on to take harder drugs. We must take note of that.

I have attended open meetings of Narcotics Anonymous and Alcoholics Anonymous and have huge respect for what those fellowships do to help addicts and alcoholics into recovery. They do not have a public profile and it is not for me to give them that or to say what their views are. However, none of the addicts in recovery to whom I have spoken favoured the decriminalisation of cannabis and marijuana. They felt that they had been brought up in a drugs culture. They started to use alcohol at a young age, went on to cannabis and marijuana and then graduated—the terminology is unfortunate—to harder drugs.

Prisons have been mentioned. Phil is extraordinarily naive if he thinks that we can stop drugs getting into prisons. I was at Saughton recently and at Craiginches relatively recently, where I spoke to the governors, who are very able and enlightened men. They said that if we

introduced closed visits there would be a riot—it is as simple as that. There are closed-visits facilities for people who are caught passing drugs—which is very difficult to stop—but at Craiginches the ordinary visitors facilities are intolerably cramped.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C708333", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 231.0, "ContributionID": 708333, "EditedText": "I am about to.The deputy chief constable said that voluntary agencies working in this field had to be streamlined. That was reported as meaning that they should be culled, which would be a disaster. We need better co-ordination of the voluntary agencies—I may have more to say about that this afternoon—but we should not lose people who have built up a huge amount of expertise and experience in the front line of tackling drug misuse. There is no doubt that we have a drugs crisis in this country, but that crisis would be infinitely worse but for the excellent work of the voluntary agencies. It is important that they can depend on receiving stable financial support from the Scottish Executive.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am about to.

The deputy chief constable said that voluntary agencies working in this field had to be streamlined. That was reported as meaning that they should be culled, which would be a disaster. We need better co-ordination of the voluntary agencies—I may have more to say about that this afternoon—but we should not lose people who have built up a huge amount of expertise and experience in the front line of tackling drug misuse. There is no doubt that we have a drugs crisis in this country, but that crisis would be infinitely worse but for the excellent work of the voluntary agencies. It is important that they can depend on receiving stable financial support from the Scottish Executive.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C708338", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 243.0, "ContributionID": 708338, "EditedText": "I agree with Gordon Jackson's emphasis on community service. I have a report from the social work committee of Highland Council, which says that the grant for criminal justice services will not meet the needs that councils have identified. Highland Council and others are having to cut community services at weekends and in the evenings. Does Gordon Jackson agree that that is a matter for concern?", "EditedTextHTML": "I agree with Gordon Jackson's emphasis on community service. I have a report from the social work committee of Highland Council, which says that the grant for criminal justice services will not meet the needs that councils have identified. Highland Council and others are having to cut community services at weekends and in the evenings. Does Gordon Jackson agree that that is a matter for concern?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2013E134P232C708339", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jackson, Gordon", "ID": 2013, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Govan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Gordon Jackson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Gordon Jackson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 245.0, "ContributionID": 708339, "EditedText": "I do not know the details of what the member is saying, but I agree that such services should be better resourced. We need to go into schools properly. The community bobby who has an hour with a class once a month is no longer adequate—and I mean such police officers no disrespect. In particular, we need to deal with young men who have offended. We need to go to the institutions where we lock up young people and tackle the business of rehabilitation. We should not think of rehabilitation as a soft option; it is in nobody's interest if an offender reoffends. I accept that the problem must be seen in the context of society as a whole; we should talk about poor housing, poor health and a lack of education. As Roseanna Cunningham said, until we tackle those issues, our crime prevention strategies will not meet with success.", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not know the details of what the member is saying, but I agree that such services should be better resourced.

We need to go into schools properly. The community bobby who has an hour with a class once a month is no longer adequate—and I mean such police officers no disrespect. In particular, we need to deal with young men who have offended. We need to go to the institutions where we lock up young people and tackle the business of rehabilitation. We should not think of rehabilitation as a soft option; it is in nobody's interest if an offender reoffends.

I accept that the problem must be seen in the context of society as a whole; we should talk about poor housing, poor health and a lack of education. As Roseanna Cunningham said, until we tackle those issues, our crime prevention strategies will not meet with success.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2013E134P232C708341", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jackson, Gordon", "ID": 2013, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Govan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Gordon Jackson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Gordon Jackson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 249.0, "ContributionID": 708341, "EditedText": "I agree. I would like to extend the age limit to 18, for people being brought before a children's panel. I do not think that every young offender should go before a children's panel, but it should be a discretionary option. Community initiatives such as the ones that I mentioned cost money. That worries me, because in the past money spent on such initiatives has not always been the most popular political option. People have spoken about tabloid politics— sometimes spending money on certain things seems to have such popularity. The community initiatives that the minister is suggesting are valuable but, like a lot of valuable things, they are expensive. However, I welcome them and hope that there will be the political will and the real resources to put them into practice. That is very much what we need.", "EditedTextHTML": "I agree. I would like to extend the age limit to 18, for people being brought before a children's panel. I do not think that every young offender should go before a children's panel, but it should be a discretionary option.

Community initiatives such as the ones that I mentioned cost money. That worries me, because in the past money spent on such initiatives has not always been the most popular political option. People have spoken about tabloid politics— sometimes spending money on certain things seems to have such popularity. The community initiatives that the minister is suggesting are valuable but, like a lot of valuable things, they are expensive. However, I welcome them and hope that there will be the political will and the real resources to put them into practice. That is very much what we need.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C708343", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 254.0, "ContributionID": 708343, "EditedText": "I call Michael Matheson to wind up for the Scottish National party. Michael Matheson (Central Scotland) (SNP)rose—", "EditedTextHTML": "I call Michael Matheson to wind up for the Scottish National party.

Michael Matheson (Central Scotland) (SNP)

rose—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C708344", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 256.0, "ContributionID": 708344, "EditedText": "On a point of order. I have to complain that I have sat here since 9.30 am, when the Labour benches were a lot emptier. I have had my button on since then, as I wanted to make a speech. I wanted to make an important point about a number of recent murders in my area and to raise that matter with the minister, but you are treating me rather unfairly.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. I have to complain that I have sat here since 9.30 am, when the Labour benches were a lot emptier. I have had my button on since then, as I wanted to make a speech. I wanted to make an important point about a number of recent murders in my area and to raise that matter with the minister, but you are treating me rather unfairly.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C708345", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 258.0, "ContributionID": 708345, "EditedText": "There is no guarantee that any member will be able to speak on a particular issue. I recognise that Mr Sheridan has had his button on for some time, but so have many other members who wish to speak. I apologise if he cannot raise his points, but I am sure that the minister will take them up for him in another way.", "EditedTextHTML": "There is no guarantee that any member will be able to speak on a particular issue. I recognise that Mr Sheridan has had his button on for some time, but so have many other members who wish to speak. I apologise if he cannot raise his points, but I am sure that the minister will take them up for him in another way.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1986E53P206C708346", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeil, Duncan", "ID": 1986, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Greenock and Inverclyde" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan McNeil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Duncan McNeil (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 260.0, "ContributionID": 708346, "EditedText": "I am not a known supporter of Tommy on many matters, but he has been here all morning and others who arrived late have been allowed to speak. That is an issue which needs to be resolved.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am not a known supporter of Tommy on many matters, but he has been here all morning and others who arrived late have been allowed to speak. That is an issue which needs to be resolved.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C708347", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 262.0, "ContributionID": 708347, "EditedText": "I am sure that we can refer that to the Procedures Committee.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sure that we can refer that to the Procedures Committee.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C708358", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 286.0, "ContributionID": 708358, "EditedText": "Mr Sheridan, please sit down.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Sheridan, please sit down.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2122E6P19C708354", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay", "ID": 2122, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lyndsay McIntosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs McIntosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 278.0, "ContributionID": 708354, "EditedText": "I am sorry. I cannot give way as I only have a few moments, but I promise that I will give way to Tommy Sheridan in the future. I hope that others will share my condemnation of the bishop for saying such an insensitive thing about using a joint.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry. I cannot give way as I only have a few moments, but I promise that I will give way to Tommy Sheridan in the future.

I hope that others will share my condemnation of the bishop for saying such an insensitive thing about using a joint.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2122E6P19C708361", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay", "ID": 2122, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lyndsay McIntosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs McIntosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 292.0, "ContributionID": 708361, "EditedText": "The comment was made and reported. On the drug enforcement agency, we have sought clarification on what the minister's measures are. The funding is vital. We do not want officers to be taken away from other parts of the police service. The minister's comments about the funding are welcome. When he gets the arithmetic done, I will be glad to hear what he has to say. CCTV has been mentioned many times. I know that there are a number of fans within the chamber. I have seen what happens in my area. CCTV frees up police time and saves the police running around looking for the wrong guy. When a crime is witnessed on CCTV the instruction can be immediate, and the description is accurate and can be checked as soon as the police catch a person. The police can track where a person is going. I am a big fan of CCTV. There are various methods of getting police around, such as having bobbies on the beat or using bicycles. I have even seen a policeman on a bicycle in East Kilbride—not much good for car crime and catching speeders. We appreciate that there are changes to be made in the way in which we police. It is a technological job now. The police have information available to them in their cars for tracking and for apprehending. We have to move with the times and be as well equipped as the bad guys are. Children's panels were mentioned. There have been a number of calls on radio for recruitment to children's panels. I notice that men are being sought. Why is that? Is it because it is women who dish out admonitions and instructions on behaviour? I appeal to men to volunteer for the children's panels. Do not leave it up to women alone. I apologise for the time that I have taken. Members will know that there has been some confusion about the speaking order.", "EditedTextHTML": "The comment was made and reported.

On the drug enforcement agency, we have sought clarification on what the minister's measures are. The funding is vital. We do not want officers to be taken away from other parts of the police service. The minister's comments about the funding are welcome. When he gets the arithmetic done, I will be glad to hear what he has to say.

CCTV has been mentioned many times. I know that there are a number of fans within the chamber. I have seen what happens in my area. CCTV frees up police time and saves the police running around looking for the wrong guy. When a crime is witnessed on CCTV the instruction can be immediate, and the description is accurate and can be checked as soon as the police catch a person. The police can track where a person is going. I am a big fan of CCTV.

There are various methods of getting police around, such as having bobbies on the beat or using bicycles. I have even seen a policeman on a bicycle in East Kilbride—not much good for car crime and catching speeders. We appreciate that there are changes to be made in the way in which we police. It is a technological job now. The police have information available to them in their cars for tracking and for apprehending. We have to move with the times and be as well equipped as the bad guys are.

Children's panels were mentioned. There have been a number of calls on radio for recruitment to children's panels. I notice that men are being sought. Why is that? Is it because it is women who dish out admonitions and instructions on behaviour? I appeal to men to volunteer for the children's panels. Do not leave it up to women alone.

I apologise for the time that I have taken. Members will know that there has been some confusion about the speaking order.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C708365", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Angus MacKay: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 301.0, "ContributionID": 708365, "EditedText": "Although Lyndsay has attempted to pour some consensual water on to the Conservative debate, she might have some difficulty controlling the dangerous dogs that sit beside and behind her. Before she was in the chamber they intervened in a considerably less consensual manner. All members will be impressed and pleased by the way in which the debate has been conducted. Broadly speaking, we have had a degree of consensus about community safety and how to improve it. However, I must exclude most of the comments from the Conservative party from that statement. Mr Matheson said that no party had a monopoly on the issues. As far as I am concerned, the Conservatives have not even reached the Old Kent Road, let alone anywhere else. I hope that the quality of Tory speeches on the subject will improve in future. I also hope that members will forgive me for not addressing every point that was raised. I am happy to answer in writing any questions that have not been addressed. Before returning to some of the specific matters raised in the debate, I want to mention some of the general themes that inform the debate. The Scottish Executive recognises the high-risk factors that inevitably lead to delinquency and escalating tariffs of crime. Members have touched on those risks—poverty, homelessness, unemployment, poor health, low educational achievement and teenage pregnancy—in the course of the debate. The transition from childhood to adolescence is difficult enough, but when it involves a mix of those additional factors, the risk consequences become extremely high, both for young people and their communities. The Executive accepts responsibility for trying to minimise those risk factors. I want to talk about the establishment of social inclusion partnerships, because they are central to the way in which we will address some of the problems that have been discussed. They also address questions in relation to funding. SIPs are a good example of the way in which we want to take the agenda forward. The partnerships are set up to get the best out of existing initiatives as well as to support additional and innovative activities, such as improving access to training, employment and education, improving child care provision, people's health and overall quality of life. Those strategies are based on information about the priorities and concerns of local residents, and I am particularly pleased to see that many of the social inclusion partnerships support the local community safety initiatives. To support the work of the SIPs, we are making available £137 million over three years from the new social inclusion partnership fund. That is an example of the kind of co-ordination that I was talking about earlier. That addresses some of the questions about whether funding will be made available, directly or indirectly, to support the work of community safety partnerships and attendant issues. That money is in addition to the £3 million for closed-circuit television and community safety, the £1 million invested in the drug action teams across Scotland and the £300,000 for research. My colleague Tom McCabe informs me that there has been £3.5 million of expenditure in South Lanarkshire, particularly on new youth facilities—an issue that was raise a few times by the SNP. Young people, who identified the need for the facilities and what kinds would work, designed those facilities. Much of that expenditure will impact on Hamilton, when that work comes fully on line. We have also invested £270,000 in the communities care project that Mr Jackson mentioned. Those are substantial innovative intervention projects that consider in great detail the ways in which we can tackle the problems of crime and crime prevention. They are not cheap options, but they are very effective and have a high preventive function. I hope that demonstrates that there is a substantial cash investment, through different avenues, in our policy on crime prevention. At the core of the debate is the need to empower communities, community leaders and individual residents and to inform them about the way in which their community functions, the resources that are used and the way in which statutory organisations bring policy and practice to bear on those communities. We must ensure that individuals feel that it is safe and meaningful to be involved in their communities. Too often, in communities that are heavily affected by high levels of drug use and drug dealing for example, it is very difficult for people to be brave and to stand up and be counted. In those circumstances, it is hard for people to speak out about what action should be taken to keep drugs off the streets, to say what must be done to ensure that rehabilitation projects and preventive education work. It is difficult for those people to say how the local community can work with law enforcement agencies and public sector agencies to ensure that the community is consulted and able to bring pressure to bear on the people in its own streets, so that they can work in the interests of the community rather than living in the shadow of the drug dealers. What I found most depressing about the comments from the Conservatives is that they were big on high-profile issues and short on the details of community safety and crime prevention. They were woefully short on some of the long-term issues about social inclusion and regeneration. The Conservatives made two points in particular on which I would like to comment. Between the end of the previous Tory Government and the present day, grant-aided expenditure for police forces has risen by 6.35 per cent in real terms. That is a fact; nobody can say that we are not putting additional resources into law enforcement. I also want to re-emphasise that, as Michael Matheson says, nobody has a monopoly on the issue of crime, particularly not the Conservatives. They talked tough on law and order, but there was a 21 per cent increase in crimes committed from 1979 to 1997. Let us leave law enforcement and turn to themore practical—", "EditedTextHTML": "Although Lyndsay has attempted to pour some consensual water on to the Conservative debate, she might have some difficulty controlling the dangerous dogs that sit beside and behind her. Before she was in the chamber they intervened in a considerably less consensual manner.

All members will be impressed and pleased by the way in which the debate has been conducted. Broadly speaking, we have had a degree of consensus about community safety and how to improve it. However, I must exclude most of the comments from the Conservative party from that statement. Mr Matheson said that no party had a monopoly on the issues. As far as I am concerned, the Conservatives have not even reached the Old

Kent Road, let alone anywhere else. I hope that the quality of Tory speeches on the subject will improve in future.

I also hope that members will forgive me for not addressing every point that was raised. I am happy to answer in writing any questions that have not been addressed. Before returning to some of the specific matters raised in the debate, I want to mention some of the general themes that inform the debate.

The Scottish Executive recognises the high-risk factors that inevitably lead to delinquency and escalating tariffs of crime. Members have touched on those risks—poverty, homelessness, unemployment, poor health, low educational achievement and teenage pregnancy—in the course of the debate. The transition from childhood to adolescence is difficult enough, but when it involves a mix of those additional factors, the risk consequences become extremely high, both for young people and their communities. The Executive accepts responsibility for trying to minimise those risk factors.

I want to talk about the establishment of social inclusion partnerships, because they are central to the way in which we will address some of the problems that have been discussed. They also address questions in relation to funding. SIPs are a good example of the way in which we want to take the agenda forward. The partnerships are set up to get the best out of existing initiatives as well as to support additional and innovative activities, such as improving access to training, employment and education, improving child care provision, people's health and overall quality of life. Those strategies are based on information about the priorities and concerns of local residents, and I am particularly pleased to see that many of the social inclusion partnerships support the local community safety initiatives.

To support the work of the SIPs, we are making available £137 million over three years from the new social inclusion partnership fund. That is an example of the kind of co-ordination that I was talking about earlier. That addresses some of the questions about whether funding will be made available, directly or indirectly, to support the work of community safety partnerships and attendant issues. That money is in addition to the £3 million for closed-circuit television and community safety, the £1 million invested in the drug action teams across Scotland and the £300,000 for research.

My colleague Tom McCabe informs me that there has been £3.5 million of expenditure in South Lanarkshire, particularly on new youth facilities—an issue that was raise a few times by the SNP. Young people, who identified the need for the facilities and what kinds would work, designed those facilities. Much of that expenditure will impact on Hamilton, when that work comes fully on line.

We have also invested £270,000 in the communities care project that Mr Jackson mentioned. Those are substantial innovative intervention projects that consider in great detail the ways in which we can tackle the problems of crime and crime prevention. They are not cheap options, but they are very effective and have a high preventive function. I hope that demonstrates that there is a substantial cash investment, through different avenues, in our policy on crime prevention.

At the core of the debate is the need to empower communities, community leaders and individual residents and to inform them about the way in which their community functions, the resources that are used and the way in which statutory organisations bring policy and practice to bear on those communities. We must ensure that individuals feel that it is safe and meaningful to be involved in their communities.

Too often, in communities that are heavily affected by high levels of drug use and drug dealing for example, it is very difficult for people to be brave and to stand up and be counted. In those circumstances, it is hard for people to speak out about what action should be taken to keep drugs off the streets, to say what must be done to ensure that rehabilitation projects and preventive education work. It is difficult for those people to say how the local community can work with law enforcement agencies and public sector agencies to ensure that the community is consulted and able to bring pressure to bear on the people in its own streets, so that they can work in the interests of the community rather than living in the shadow of the drug dealers.

What I found most depressing about the comments from the Conservatives is that they were big on high-profile issues and short on the details of community safety and crime prevention. They were woefully short on some of the long-term issues about social inclusion and regeneration.

The Conservatives made two points in particular on which I would like to comment. Between the end of the previous Tory Government and the present day, grant-aided expenditure for police forces has risen by 6.35 per cent in real terms. That is a fact; nobody can say that we are not putting additional resources into law enforcement. I also want to re-emphasise that, as Michael Matheson says, nobody has a monopoly on the issue of crime, particularly not the Conservatives. They talked tough on law and order, but there was a 21 per cent increase in crimes committed from 1979 to 1997.

Let us leave law enforcement and turn to the

more practical—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C708366", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 303.0, "ContributionID": 708366, "EditedText": "Does not the minister agree that, in the final years of the Conservative Administration, between 1991 and 1997, the crime figures plummeted? The Labour party has managed to reverse that trend.", "EditedTextHTML": "Does not the minister agree that, in the final years of the Conservative Administration, between 1991 and 1997, the crime figures plummeted? The Labour party has managed to reverse that trend.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "C708373", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26844, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 307.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 307.0, "ID": 26844, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 317.0, "ContributionID": 708373, "EditedText": "Meeting adjourned at 12:35.", "EditedTextHTML": "Meeting adjourned at 12:35.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C708368", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26844, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 307.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 307.0, "ID": 26844, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ms Patricia Ferguson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 308.0, "ContributionID": 708368, "EditedText": "The next item is the business motion, S1M-167.", "EditedTextHTML": "The next item is the business motion, S1M-167.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2228E151P202C708369", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26844, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 307.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 307.0, "ID": 26844, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McCabe, Tom", "ID": 2228, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Tom McCabe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Parliament (Mr Tom McCabe): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 311.0, "ContributionID": 708369, "EditedText": "As is normal, the motion sets out the business for next week and the provisional business for the following week. On the afternoon of Wednesday 29 September, it is proposed that there will be a debate on an Executive motion on manufacturing and industrial strategy for Scotland. That will be followed by any motions put forward by the Parliamentary Bureau in respect of Scottish statutory instruments—which will be taken without debate—and by any procedural motions to be considered by the Parliament. Decision time will take place at 5 pm. After decision time, there will be a members' business debate on motion S1M-153, in the name of Mr Donald Gorrie, on the involvement of football clubs in local communities. Business on Thursday 30 September will begin at 9.30 am with a debate on a non-Executive motion from the Scottish National party on education. On conclusion of the debate, I will move a further business motion. The afternoon will start as usual with question time at 2.30 pm, and at 3.15 pm there will be a debate on stage 1 of the Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill and the financial resolution that is required to accompany the bill. That will be followed by any motions put forward by the Parliamentary Bureau on SSIs, to be taken without debate. Decision time will take place at 5 pm, to be followed by a members' business debate on motion S1M-140, in the name of Mr Fergus Ewing, on the upgrading of the Mallaig road. As I said, the business for the following week is provisional. On Wednesday 6 October, the first item of business at 2.30 pm will be a debate on an Executive motion on a subject yet to be announced. Decision time will take place at 5 pm. After decision time, there will be a members' business debate. The motion for that has yet to be selected. On Thursday 7 October at 9.30 am, the first item of business will be a ministerial statement and debate on the Executive's expenditure plans. Immediately before lunch, I will move a business motion on future business. The afternoon will begin with question time at 2.30 pm. That will be followed by Executive business on a subject yet to be announced. On both days of that week, provision will be made to enable Parliament to consider any motions put forward by the Parliamentary Bureau in respect of SSIs—which will be taken without debate—and by any other procedural motions required to be considered by the Parliament. Decision time on 7 October will take place at 5 pm, and will be followed by a members' business debate on a motion that has not yet been selected. I move,That the Parliament agrees the following programme of business— Wednesday 29 September 19992.30 pm Debate on an Executive Motion on a Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy for Scotland followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions 5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business Thursday 30 September 19999.30 am Non-Executive Business: Debate on a Motion by the Scottish National Party followed by, no later than 12.20 pm Business Motion 2.30 pm Question Time 3.00 pm Open Question Time followed by, no later than 3.15 pm Stage 1 Debate on the Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill followed by Motion on a Financial Resolution required in relation to the provisions of the Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions 5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business Wednesday 6 October 19992.30 pm Executive Business followed by Parliamentary Bureau motions 5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business Thursday 7 October 1999 9.30 am Ministerial Statement and Debate on the Executive's Expenditure Plans 12.20 pm Business Motion 2.30 pm Question Time 3.00 pm Open Question Time followed by, no later than 3.15 pm Executive Business followed by Parliamentary Bureau motions 5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business", "EditedTextHTML": "As is normal, the motion sets out the business for next week and the provisional business for the following week.

On the afternoon of Wednesday 29 September, it is proposed that there will be a debate on an Executive motion on manufacturing and industrial strategy for Scotland. That will be followed by any motions put forward by the Parliamentary Bureau in respect of Scottish statutory instruments—which will be taken without debate—and by any procedural motions to be considered by the Parliament. Decision time will take place at 5 pm. After decision time, there will be a members' business debate on motion S1M-153, in the name of Mr Donald Gorrie, on the involvement of football clubs in local communities.

Business on Thursday 30 September will begin at 9.30 am with a debate on a non-Executive motion from the Scottish National party on education. On conclusion of the debate, I will move a further business motion. The afternoon will start as usual with question time at 2.30 pm, and at 3.15 pm there will be a debate on stage 1 of the Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill and the financial resolution that is required to accompany the bill. That will be followed by any motions put forward by the Parliamentary Bureau on SSIs, to be taken without debate. Decision time will take place at 5 pm, to be followed by a members' business debate on motion S1M-140, in the name of Mr Fergus Ewing, on the upgrading of the Mallaig road.

As I said, the business for the following week is provisional. On Wednesday 6 October, the first item of business at 2.30 pm will be a debate on an Executive motion on a subject yet to be announced. Decision time will take place at 5 pm. After decision time, there will be a members' business debate. The motion for that has yet to be selected.

On Thursday 7 October at 9.30 am, the first item of business will be a ministerial statement and debate on the Executive's expenditure plans. Immediately before lunch, I will move a business motion on future business. The afternoon will begin with question time at 2.30 pm. That will be followed by Executive business on a subject yet to be announced.

On both days of that week, provision will be made to enable Parliament to consider any motions put forward by the Parliamentary Bureau in respect of SSIs—which will be taken without debate—and by any other procedural motions required to be considered by the Parliament. Decision time on 7 October will take place at 5 pm, and will be followed by a members' business debate on a motion that has not yet been selected.

I move,

That the Parliament agrees the following programme of business—

Wednesday 29 September 1999

2.30 pm Debate on an Executive Motion on a Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy for Scotland followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions

5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business

Thursday 30 September 1999

9.30 am Non-Executive Business: Debate on a Motion by the Scottish National Party followed by, no later than 12.20 pm Business Motion

2.30 pm Question Time 3.00 pm Open Question Time followed by, no later than 3.15 pm Stage 1 Debate on the Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill followed by Motion on a Financial Resolution required in relation to the provisions of the Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions 5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business

Wednesday 6 October 1999

2.30 pm Executive Business followed by Parliamentary Bureau motions 5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business Thursday 7 October 1999

9.30 am Ministerial Statement and Debate on the Executive's Expenditure Plans 12.20 pm Business Motion 2.30 pm Question Time 3.00 pm Open Question Time followed by, no later than 3.15 pm Executive Business

followed by Parliamentary Bureau motions 5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "C708371", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26844, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 307.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 307.0, "ID": 26844, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 315.0, "ContributionID": 708371, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2154E194P299C708379", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26845, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26846, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "QuestionHeading": "Agritay Ltd", "QuestionHeadingID": 26847, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 324.0, "DisplayOrder": 324.0, "ID": 26847, "ParentID": 26846 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stephen, Nicol", "ID": 2154, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Nicol Stephen", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicol Stephen: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 331.0, "ContributionID": 708379, "EditedText": "Most parties in this chamber— certainly the Labour party, the Liberal Democrats and the Scottish National party—support the idea of decisions on such crucial economic issues being taken out of the hands of politicians and being made instead by financial and economic experts, either at the Bank of England or in Europe. The vital message that the Scottish Executive needs to get across is not that exporters need a weak pound, but that they need currency stability and predictability to help them secure greater export markets.", "EditedTextHTML": "Most parties in this chamber— certainly the Labour party, the Liberal Democrats and the Scottish National party—support the idea of decisions on such crucial economic issues being taken out of the hands of politicians and being made instead by financial and economic experts, either at the Bank of England or in Europe. The vital message that the Scottish Executive needs to get across is not that exporters need a weak pound, but that they need currency stability and predictability to help them secure greater export markets.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1962E35P56C708388", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26845, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26846, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "QuestionHeading": "Dumfries and Galloway Economic Forum", "QuestionHeadingID": 26850, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 347.0, "DisplayOrder": 347.0, "ID": 26850, "ParentID": 26846 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mundell, David", "ID": 1962, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Mundell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David Mundell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 352.0, "ContributionID": 708388, "EditedText": "I welcome the minister's answer. However, is he aware that a recent survey shows that Dumfries and Galloway has the lowest level of take-home pay in Scotland? Does he agree that one of the first priorities of the forum should be to address the issue of bringing well- paid jobs into the area—in particular, jobs of the kind that the Government could distribute to Dumfries and Galloway if it follows through on its decentralisation proposals?", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the minister's answer. However, is he aware that a recent survey shows that Dumfries and Galloway has the lowest level of take-home pay in Scotland? Does he agree that one of the first priorities of the forum should be to address the issue of bringing well- paid jobs into the area—in particular, jobs of the kind that the Government could distribute to Dumfries and Galloway if it follows through on its decentralisation proposals?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2154E194P299C708389", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26845, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26846, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "QuestionHeading": "Dumfries and Galloway Economic Forum", "QuestionHeadingID": 26850, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 347.0, "DisplayOrder": 347.0, "ID": 26850, "ParentID": 26846 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stephen, Nicol", "ID": 2154, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Nicol Stephen", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicol Stephen: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 354.0, "ContributionID": 708389, "EditedText": "I agree with David Mundell's objective. We want to have high-paid jobs—the last thing we want Scotland to be ambitious for is low-cost, low-quality jobs. I know that there is an existing joint economic strategy and I hope that this new initiative will lift the momentum for jobs in Dumfries and Galloway and provide the sort of work that David Mundell suggested.", "EditedTextHTML": "I agree with David Mundell's objective. We want to have high-paid jobs—the last thing we want Scotland to be ambitious for is low-cost, low-quality jobs. I know that there is an existing joint economic strategy and I hope that this new initiative will lift the momentum for jobs in Dumfries and Galloway and provide the sort of work that David Mundell suggested.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C708392", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26845, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26846, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "QuestionHeading": "Health Care", "QuestionHeadingID": 26851, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 356.0, "DisplayOrder": 356.0, "ID": 26851, "ParentID": 26846 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 361.0, "ContributionID": 708392, "EditedText": "I am concerned about the rising suicide rate among young men and about the many other problems that affect men in particular—I looked at some of those in detail last week when I attended an event in connection with men's health week. The health service and other agencies are getting better at recognising men's needs and they must continue to improve. The last part of Mrs Scanlon's statement is inaccurate. It is important that questions should be based on facts.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am concerned about the rising suicide rate among young men and about the many other problems that affect men in particular—I looked at some of those in detail last week when I attended an event in connection with men's health week. The health service and other agencies are getting better at recognising men's needs and they must continue to improve. The last part of Mrs Scanlon's statement is inaccurate. It is important that questions should be based on facts.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C708396", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26845, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26846, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "QuestionHeading": "Road Maintenance", "QuestionHeadingID": 26852, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 363.0, "DisplayOrder": 363.0, "ID": 26852, "ParentID": 26846 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 370.0, "ContributionID": 708396, "EditedText": "Very subtle, very subtle.", "EditedTextHTML": "Very subtle, very subtle.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C708401", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26845, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26846, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "QuestionHeading": "Kincardine Power Station", "QuestionHeadingID": 26853, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 380.0, "DisplayOrder": 380.0, "ID": 26853, "ParentID": 26846 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "7. Bruce Crawford (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 381.0, "ContributionID": 708401, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what discussions have taken place with Scottish Power regarding the site and future use of the former Kincardine power station. (S1O-350)", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what discussions have taken place with Scottish Power regarding the site and future use of the former Kincardine power station. (S1O-350)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708404", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26845, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26846, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "QuestionHeading": "Kincardine Power Station", "QuestionHeadingID": 26853, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 380.0, "DisplayOrder": 380.0, "ID": 26853, "ParentID": 26846 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 387.0, "ContributionID": 708404, "EditedText": "We have had the question.", "EditedTextHTML": "We have had the question.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2154E194P299C708406", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26845, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26846, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "QuestionHeading": "Kincardine Power Station", "QuestionHeadingID": 26853, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 380.0, "DisplayOrder": 380.0, "ID": 26853, "ParentID": 26846 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stephen, Nicol", "ID": 2154, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Nicol Stephen", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicol Stephen: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 391.0, "ContributionID": 708406, "EditedText": "The power station is being dismantled and the proposal for the new facility includes part of its site. Bearing that in mind, I will be happy to contact the local enterprise companies to encourage further investigation. I am not sure that I would call for a formal study at this stage.", "EditedTextHTML": "The power station is being dismantled and the proposal for the new facility includes part of its site. Bearing that in mind, I will be happy to contact the local enterprise companies to encourage further investigation. I am not sure that I would call for a formal study at this stage.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708417", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26845, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26846, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "QuestionHeading": "Railway Station (Dysart)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26856, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 407.0, "DisplayOrder": 407.0, "ID": 26856, "ParentID": 26846 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 416.0, "ContributionID": 708417, "EditedText": "Ms Boyack will be sorry that she ever went to Ireland.", "EditedTextHTML": "Ms Boyack will be sorry that she ever went to Ireland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1893E47P78C708418", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26845, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26846, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "QuestionHeading": "Scottish Environment Protection Agency", "QuestionHeadingID": 26857, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 418.0, "DisplayOrder": 418.0, "ID": 26857, "ParentID": 26846 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnstone, Alex", "ID": 1893, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Johnstone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "11. Alex Johnstone (North-East Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 419.0, "ContributionID": 708418, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what selection criteria have been employed in determining the membership of the new board of the Scottish Environment Protection Agency. (S1O-375) The First Minister (Donald Dewar): Members of the SEPA board are appointed in accordance with paragraph 4 of schedule 6 to the Environment Act 1995, which states: \"In making appointments, Scottish Ministers shall have regard to the desirability of appointing persons who have knowledge or experience in some matter relevant to the functions of SEPA.\"", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what selection criteria have been employed in determining the membership of the new board of the Scottish Environment Protection Agency. (S1O-375) The First Minister (Donald Dewar): Members of the SEPA board are appointed in accordance with paragraph 4 of schedule 6 to the Environment Act 1995, which states:

\"In making appointments, Scottish Ministers shall have regard to the desirability of appointing persons who have knowledge or experience in some matter relevant to the functions of SEPA.\"

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1986E53P206C708422", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26845, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26846, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "QuestionHeading": "Drug Trafficking", "QuestionHeadingID": 26858, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 425.0, "DisplayOrder": 425.0, "ID": 26858, "ParentID": 26846 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeil, Duncan", "ID": 1986, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Greenock and Inverclyde" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan McNeil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McNeil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 428.0, "ContributionID": 708422, "EditedText": "I welcome the minister's answer, as I am sure the families and communities throughout Scotland who have suffered as a result of drug- dealing activities would welcome such powers being available. I understand that, under the current system, the proceeds from assets of convicted drug dealers—", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the minister's answer, as I am sure the families and communities throughout Scotland who have suffered as a result of drug- dealing activities would welcome such powers being available. I understand that, under the current system, the proceeds from assets of convicted drug dealers—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1986E53P206C708424", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26845, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26846, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "QuestionHeading": "Drug Trafficking", "QuestionHeadingID": 26858, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 425.0, "DisplayOrder": 425.0, "ID": 26858, "ParentID": 26846 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeil, Duncan", "ID": 1986, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Greenock and Inverclyde" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan McNeil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McNeil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 432.0, "ContributionID": 708424, "EditedText": "I know that you are going to be strict today, Presiding Officer, and I am coming to the question.", "EditedTextHTML": "I know that you are going to be strict today, Presiding Officer, and I am coming to the question.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708425", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26845, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26846, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "QuestionHeading": "Drug Trafficking", "QuestionHeadingID": 26858, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 425.0, "DisplayOrder": 425.0, "ID": 26858, "ParentID": 26846 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 434.0, "ContributionID": 708425, "EditedText": "How long, O Lord, how long?", "EditedTextHTML": "How long, O Lord, how long?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1986E53P206C708426", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26845, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26846, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "QuestionHeading": "Drug Trafficking", "QuestionHeadingID": 26858, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 425.0, "DisplayOrder": 425.0, "ID": 26858, "ParentID": 26846 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeil, Duncan", "ID": 1986, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Greenock and Inverclyde" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan McNeil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McNeil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 436.0, "ContributionID": 708426, "EditedText": "The proceeds from the assets of convicted drug dealers, like fines, go into a consolidated fund. Will the minister investigate whether those assets could be returned to the communities from which they were taken? That would be a welcome boost for local drug prevention groups.", "EditedTextHTML": "The proceeds from the assets of convicted drug dealers, like fines, go into a consolidated fund. Will the minister investigate whether those assets could be returned to the communities from which they were taken? That would be a welcome boost for local drug prevention groups.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2118E157P454C708429", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26845, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26846, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "QuestionHeading": "Housing", "QuestionHeadingID": 26859, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 442.0, "DisplayOrder": 442.0, "ID": 26859, "ParentID": 26846 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Quinan, Mr Lloyd", "ID": 2118, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lloyd Quinan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "13. Mr Lloyd Quinan (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 443.0, "ContributionID": 708429, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what contingency plans it has for investment in housing and housing maintenance where tenants reject stock transfer proposals by ballot. (S1O-374) The Minister for Communities (Ms Wendy Alexander): Where tenants reject stock transfer proposals, the council concerned will continue to be eligible for housing revenue account allocation from the Scottish Executive.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what contingency plans it has for investment in housing and housing maintenance where tenants reject stock transfer proposals by ballot. (S1O-374) The Minister for Communities (Ms Wendy Alexander): Where tenants reject stock transfer proposals, the council concerned will continue to be eligible for housing revenue account allocation from the Scottish Executive.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1805E13P109C708437", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26845, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26846, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "QuestionHeading": "Community Planning", "QuestionHeadingID": 26861, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 458.0, "DisplayOrder": 458.0, "ID": 26861, "ParentID": 26846 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Whitefield, Karen", "ID": 1805, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Airdrie and Shotts" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Karen Whitefield", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Karen Whitefield: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 461.0, "ContributionID": 708437, "EditedText": "Does the Executive intend to implement the proposals of the community planning working group to provide a statutory basis for community planning?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the Executive intend to implement the proposals of the community planning working group to provide a statutory basis for community planning?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C708441", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26845, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26846, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "QuestionHeading": "Telecommunications Equipment", "QuestionHeadingID": 26862, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 465.0, "DisplayOrder": 465.0, "ID": 26862, "ParentID": 26846 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 470.0, "ContributionID": 708441, "EditedText": "There will be a 42-day prior approval scheme for ground-based masts up to 15 m in height to allow for public advertisement of a proposal. As I said, local authorities will have additional powers in such matters. As to health hazards, I must tell Elaine Smith that the mainstream scientific and medical advice that is available to the Executive suggests that there is very little or no risk to health. However, the National Radiological Protection Board has established an expert working group to examine mobile phone emissions, and any information that emerges will be considered very carefully indeed.", "EditedTextHTML": "There will be a 42-day prior approval scheme for ground-based masts up to 15 m in height to allow for public advertisement of a proposal. As I said, local authorities will have additional powers in such matters.

As to health hazards, I must tell Elaine Smith that the mainstream scientific and medical advice that is available to the Executive suggests that there is very little or no risk to health. However, the National Radiological Protection Board has established an expert working group to examine mobile phone emissions, and any information that emerges will be considered very carefully indeed.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1837E108P186C708446", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26845, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26846, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "QuestionHeading": "Deaf People", "QuestionHeadingID": 26864, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 479.0, "DisplayOrder": 479.0, "ID": 26864, "ParentID": 26846 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mulligan, Mary", "ID": 1837, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Linlithgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Mulligan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Mulligan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 482.0, "ContributionID": 708446, "EditedText": "Is the minister aware that the Institute of Hearing Research at the University of Nottingham has developed a system to categorise the level of hearing loss, which could be used to identify people with moderate to severe hearing loss—the people who are most in need of service provision—so allowing services to be targeted at those most in need?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is the minister aware that the Institute of Hearing Research at the University of Nottingham has developed a system to categorise the level of hearing loss, which could be used to identify people with moderate to severe hearing loss—the people who are most in need of service provision—so allowing services to be targeted at those most in need?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C708447", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26845, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26846, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "QuestionHeading": "Deaf People", "QuestionHeadingID": 26864, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 479.0, "DisplayOrder": 479.0, "ID": 26864, "ParentID": 26846 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 484.0, "ContributionID": 708447, "EditedText": "I was not aware of the initiative but I am happy to look at it if it will complement the work that we are undertaking in this area.", "EditedTextHTML": "I was not aware of the initiative but I am happy to look at it if it will complement the work that we are undertaking in this area.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C708449", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26865, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 486.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26866, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 489.0, "QuestionHeading": "Chancellor of the Exchequer (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26867, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 490.0, "DisplayOrder": 490.0, "ID": 26867, "ParentID": 26866 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "1. David McLetchie (Lothians) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 491.0, "ContributionID": 708449, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive how many times the First Minister has met the Chancellor of the Exchequer since 1 July 1999 to discuss matters relating to the public expenditure survey and its implications for the Scottish block. (S1O-364) The First Minister (Donald Dewar): As Mr McLetchie would expect, the Scottish Executive maintains close contacts with the UK Government on a wide range of issues, including matters relating to public expenditure.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive how many times the First Minister has met the Chancellor of the Exchequer since 1 July 1999 to discuss matters relating to the public expenditure survey and its implications for the Scottish block. (S1O-364) The First Minister (Donald Dewar): As Mr McLetchie would expect, the Scottish Executive maintains close contacts with the UK Government on a wide range of issues, including matters relating to public expenditure.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C708452", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26865, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 486.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26866, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 489.0, "QuestionHeading": "Chancellor of the Exchequer (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26867, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 490.0, "DisplayOrder": 490.0, "ID": 26867, "ParentID": 26866 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 497.0, "ContributionID": 708452, "EditedText": "The First Minister's priorities are not those of Scotland's motorists. It is all very well to claim that there are increases in public expenditure across the board, but the specific issue is expenditure on transport. Did the First Minister see the report this weekend in Scotland on Sunday about a haulier based in the Borders who had re-registered his fleet of vehicles in the Republic of Ireland in order to save his business £22,000 in excise duties? When the First Minister next meets the Chancellor of the Exchequer, will he tell him that his policies not only are deeply damaging to Scottish businesses but will be counterproductive? Higher taxes will lead to lower tax revenues in total—the chancellor is cutting off his nose to spite his face.", "EditedTextHTML": "The First Minister's priorities are not those of Scotland's motorists. It is all very well to claim that there are increases in public expenditure across the board, but the specific issue is expenditure on transport. Did the First Minister see the report this weekend in Scotland on Sunday about a haulier based in the Borders who had re-registered his fleet of vehicles in the Republic of Ireland in order to save his business £22,000 in excise duties? When the First Minister next meets the Chancellor of the Exchequer, will he tell him that his policies not only are deeply damaging to Scottish businesses but will be counterproductive? Higher taxes will lead to lower tax revenues in total—the chancellor is cutting off his nose to spite his face.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C708453", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26865, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 486.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26866, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 489.0, "QuestionHeading": "Chancellor of the Exchequer (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26867, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 490.0, "DisplayOrder": 490.0, "ID": 26867, "ParentID": 26866 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 499.0, "ContributionID": 708453, "EditedText": "I am delighted to see that Mr McLetchie is following the doctrines of Mr Laffer, the right-wing American economist. His assumption is very optimistic. It is important that we maintain investment, obviously. I was interested in Mr McLetchie's choice of words— £22,000 in vehicle excise duties. If Mr McLetchie was a businessman doing that calculation, he would look at the level of corporation tax, at labour costs and at a large number of other factors; he might find that the simplistic comparison that he makes does not stand up to examination. There is, as I said, always a balance to be held and I look forward to further encouraging, through the rural transport fund and through direct Scottish Executive subvention, the many lifeline and other services that we already support.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am delighted to see that Mr McLetchie is following the doctrines of Mr Laffer, the right-wing American economist. His assumption is very optimistic. It is important that we maintain investment, obviously. I was interested in Mr McLetchie's choice of words— £22,000 in vehicle excise duties. If Mr McLetchie was a businessman doing that calculation, he would look at the level of corporation tax, at labour costs and at a large number of other factors; he might find that the simplistic comparison that he makes does not stand up to examination. There is, as I said, always a balance to be held and I look forward to further encouraging, through the rural transport fund and through direct Scottish Executive subvention, the many lifeline and other services that we already support.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1828E200P487C708454", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26865, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 486.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26866, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 489.0, "QuestionHeading": "Chancellor of the Exchequer (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26867, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 490.0, "DisplayOrder": 490.0, "ID": 26867, "ParentID": 26866 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacDonald, Margo", "ID": 1828, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margo MacDonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Margo MacDonald (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 501.0, "ContributionID": 708454, "EditedText": "Does the Executive consider that the block grant will be sufficient to ensure that people who are referred this month to the dermatology clinic at the royal infirmary in Edinburgh will be seen before August 2000? If it does not consider the block grant large enough to meet that objective—as was suggested in the document that we looked at two weeks ago—which member of the Executive will feel obliged to resign?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the Executive consider that the block grant will be sufficient to ensure that people who are referred this month to the dermatology clinic at the royal infirmary in Edinburgh will be seen before August 2000? If it does not consider the block grant large enough to meet that objective—as was suggested in the document that we looked at two weeks ago—which member of the Executive will feel obliged to resign?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C708457", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26865, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 486.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26866, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 489.0, "QuestionHeading": "Chancellor of the Exchequer (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26867, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 490.0, "DisplayOrder": 490.0, "ID": 26867, "ParentID": 26866 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 507.0, "ContributionID": 708457, "EditedText": "Oh, it is about the block grant. Laughter.", "EditedTextHTML": "Oh, it is about the block grant. [Laughter.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708460", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26865, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 486.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26866, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 489.0, "QuestionHeading": "Chancellor of the Exchequer (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26867, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 490.0, "DisplayOrder": 490.0, "ID": 26867, "ParentID": 26866 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 513.0, "ContributionID": 708460, "EditedText": "Fortunately, I have selective deafness: I did not hear that remark.", "EditedTextHTML": "Fortunately, I have selective deafness: I did not hear that remark.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C708472", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26865, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 486.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26866, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 489.0, "QuestionHeading": "Council of the Isles", "QuestionHeadingID": 26869, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 536.0, "DisplayOrder": 536.0, "ID": 26869, "ParentID": 26866 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 539.0, "ContributionID": 708472, "EditedText": "Will the minister clarify why the council of the isles is being transmogrified into the British-Irish council? Was that done under pressure from the Irish Government as a result of its concern to have links at a Westminster level and to include the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Assembly as well?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister clarify why the council of the isles is being transmogrified into the British-Irish council? Was that done under pressure from the Irish Government as a result of its concern to have links at a Westminster level and to include the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Assembly as well?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4983548+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C708473", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26865, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 486.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26866, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 489.0, "QuestionHeading": "Council of the Isles", "QuestionHeadingID": 26869, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 536.0, "DisplayOrder": 536.0, "ID": 26869, "ParentID": 26866 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 541.0, "ContributionID": 708473, "EditedText": "No, the name of the new body and the arrangements for it were a result of the detailed negotiations that took place in Belfast last year. We should respect the delicate nature of those negotiations and the fact that, for the first time in history, not only have all the political parties in the north of Ireland signed up to an agreement—however difficult we are currently finding the implementation of that agreement—but the people of Northern Ireland voted overwhelmingly for it in a referendum.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, the name of the new body and the arrangements for it were a result of the detailed negotiations that took place in Belfast last year. We should respect the delicate nature of those negotiations and the fact that, for the first time in history, not only have all the political parties in the north of Ireland signed up to an agreement—however difficult we are currently finding the implementation of that agreement—but the people of Northern Ireland voted overwhelmingly for it in a referendum.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4983548+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C708474", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26865, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 486.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26866, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 489.0, "QuestionHeading": "Council of the Isles", "QuestionHeadingID": 26869, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 536.0, "DisplayOrder": 536.0, "ID": 26869, "ParentID": 26866 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 543.0, "ContributionID": 708474, "EditedText": "Will the minister agree that the council could have great value not only in producing harmonious relationships between the different parts of the islands, but as a forum to discuss matters of mutual interest, such as transport links and European Union issues? Would it not be a good idea to set it up at least in part, perhaps with the Irish joining us later? That would be particularly important for those of us who take a federalist, as opposed to an isolationist and separatist, approach.", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister agree that the council could have great value not only in producing harmonious relationships between the different parts of the islands, but as a forum to discuss matters of mutual interest, such as transport links and European Union issues? Would it not be a good idea to set it up at least in part, perhaps with the Irish joining us later? That would be particularly important for those of us who take a federalist, as opposed to an isolationist and separatist, approach.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4983548+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C708479", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26865, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 486.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26866, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 489.0, "QuestionHeading": "Council of the Isles", "QuestionHeadingID": 26869, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 536.0, "DisplayOrder": 536.0, "ID": 26869, "ParentID": 26866 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 553.0, "ContributionID": 708479, "EditedText": "The British-Irish council would initially be set up as an intergovernmental body, which would involve the Executives of the various devolved territories and the two Governments. In due course, we would hope that the parliamentary bodies of all those different institutions would meet as well so that there would be interparliamentary discussions as well as discussions between the Executives and Governments.", "EditedTextHTML": "The British-Irish council would initially be set up as an intergovernmental body, which would involve the Executives of the various devolved territories and the two Governments. In due course, we would hope that the parliamentary bodies of all those different institutions would meet as well so that there would be interparliamentary discussions as well as discussions between the Executives and Governments.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4983548+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C708481", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26865, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 486.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26866, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 489.0, "QuestionHeading": "Council of the Isles", "QuestionHeadingID": 26869, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 536.0, "DisplayOrder": 536.0, "ID": 26869, "ParentID": 26866 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 557.0, "ContributionID": 708481, "EditedText": "I would not be surprised if the First Minister passes on that invitation when he visits Dublin next month. I am sure that we all wish him well on that visit, when he will represent Scotland on behalf of the Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "I would not be surprised if the First Minister passes on that invitation when he visits Dublin next month. I am sure that we all wish him well on that visit, when he will represent Scotland on behalf of the Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4983548+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2118E157P454C708491", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26870, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 561.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 561.0, "ID": 26870, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Quinan, Mr Lloyd", "ID": 2118, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lloyd Quinan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Quinan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 580.0, "ContributionID": 708491, "EditedText": "Excellent.The answer to the second question is straightforward: that drop was caused by cuts in local government created by central Tory-Labour Government.", "EditedTextHTML": "Excellent.

The answer to the second question is straightforward: that drop was caused by cuts in local government created by central Tory-Labour Government.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4983548+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2118E157P454C708497", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26870, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 561.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 561.0, "ID": 26870, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Quinan, Mr Lloyd", "ID": 2118, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lloyd Quinan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Quinan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 592.0, "ContributionID": 708497, "EditedText": "I just wondered.", "EditedTextHTML": "I just wondered.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4983548+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C708498", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26870, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 561.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 561.0, "ID": 26870, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 594.0, "ContributionID": 708498, "EditedText": "Please begin to wind up.", "EditedTextHTML": "Please begin to wind up.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4983548+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C708504", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26870, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 561.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 561.0, "ID": 26870, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Keith Raffan (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 608.0, "ContributionID": 708504, "EditedText": "I will restrict my remarks almost entirely to the funding issue, but first let me say that the Scottish Liberal Democrats join the other parties in recognising the central role that the voluntary sector plays in Scottish life. In some ways, it is different from the voluntary sector south of the border. Scotland has a lot of smaller organisations—which brings some problems, especially in relation to funding—and the voluntary sector here has a stronger connection with the public sector. In a debate such as this, it is easy to talk ingeneralities, but that is in the nature of debates on this kind of motion. I would like to give four concrete examples of funding problems that illustrate exactly what the voluntary sector is up against. The first example is LEAD Scotland in Fife— Linking Education and Disability. It does marvellous work, which dovetails with the strategic aims of Fife Council on equal opportunities, social inclusion and lifelong learning. At the moment, its Fife organiser, Emma Whitelock, has 48 students, and the work that she does is supported by 26 volunteers, but the funding runs out at the end of this month. She has been given her redundancy notice and the project is threatened with closure. That is a prime example of what the voluntary sector is up against: in a few days, the Fife branch of a superb national organisation that works with people with disabilities will cease to exist. It is important to address the multifaceted problems of funding. LEAD Scotland's problems go beyond Fife, because it does not receive funding from many councils. The organisation believes that since local government reorganisation, local councils have been forced to prioritise and have concentrated more on supporting home-grown voluntary agencies and groups in the local authority area. That is not a criticism; authorities have had to prioritise, but the local branches of national organisations have tended to suffer as a result. I should be grateful if the minister gave her personal attention to that prime example of the voluntary sector's funding problems. I have a copy of a moving letter about the Fife project that was sent to Councillor Christina May, leader of the Labour administration in Fife, which asks, indeed, almost begs for £20,000 to see the project through to 31 March 2000. My second example is the Central Fife Survivors Project, which does much good work in the field of abuse. The project, which still exists, is another example of the instability and uncertainty of funding. Urban aid ran out and the project might have closed had it not been lucky enough to receive lottery funding. Fife Council has given the project much support in the past and has again given a commitment, but the long-term future of the project is far from secure. I am particularly interested in two projects that deal with drug problems. The Scottish Drugs Forum's under-16s project is almost entirely dependent on funding from Comic Relief. In a sense, Comic Relief itself is in the voluntary sector, so again there is no long-term certainty in that source of funding. My final example is the Simpsons House Prisoner Offenders Project, which provides a through-care service. The project does tremendous work and touches on an issue that I raised in this morning's debate. This debate follows on well from the earlier debate, when drug abuse issues and the problems faced by prisoners were raised. I made the point that we should not see prisons as an end in themselves, but that prisoners on release should receive a through- care approach from social services and others. The Simpsons House Prisoner Offenders Project has no statutory funding, receives 30 per cent of its funding from Lloyds TSB and has waited since March to hear from Lothian Health Board. I hope that when the chancellor's war chest, or Treasury chest, is finally opened—perhaps ministers will attempt to find the key to it more quickly than him—more money will be disbursed to the voluntary sector from central Government. That sector should not have to rely increasingly on lottery funding, banks and corporations, which produces only instability. We need three-year core funding, towards which the Scottish Executive, local government and bodies such as health boards should work strongly.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will restrict my remarks almost entirely to the funding issue, but first let me say that the Scottish Liberal Democrats join the other parties in recognising the central role that the voluntary sector plays in Scottish life. In some ways, it is different from the voluntary sector south of the border. Scotland has a lot of smaller organisations—which brings some problems, especially in relation to funding—and the voluntary sector here has a stronger connection with the public sector.

In a debate such as this, it is easy to talk in

generalities, but that is in the nature of debates on this kind of motion. I would like to give four concrete examples of funding problems that illustrate exactly what the voluntary sector is up against.

The first example is LEAD Scotland in Fife— Linking Education and Disability. It does marvellous work, which dovetails with the strategic aims of Fife Council on equal opportunities, social inclusion and lifelong learning. At the moment, its Fife organiser, Emma Whitelock, has 48 students, and the work that she does is supported by 26 volunteers, but the funding runs out at the end of this month. She has been given her redundancy notice and the project is threatened with closure. That is a prime example of what the voluntary sector is up against: in a few days, the Fife branch of a superb national organisation that works with people with disabilities will cease to exist.

It is important to address the multifaceted problems of funding. LEAD Scotland's problems go beyond Fife, because it does not receive funding from many councils. The organisation believes that since local government reorganisation, local councils have been forced to prioritise and have concentrated more on supporting home-grown voluntary agencies and groups in the local authority area. That is not a criticism; authorities have had to prioritise, but the local branches of national organisations have tended to suffer as a result.

I should be grateful if the minister gave her personal attention to that prime example of the voluntary sector's funding problems. I have a copy of a moving letter about the Fife project that was sent to Councillor Christina May, leader of the Labour administration in Fife, which asks, indeed, almost begs for £20,000 to see the project through to 31 March 2000.

My second example is the Central Fife Survivors Project, which does much good work in the field of abuse. The project, which still exists, is another example of the instability and uncertainty of funding. Urban aid ran out and the project might have closed had it not been lucky enough to receive lottery funding. Fife Council has given the project much support in the past and has again given a commitment, but the long-term future of the project is far from secure.

I am particularly interested in two projects that deal with drug problems. The Scottish Drugs Forum's under-16s project is almost entirely dependent on funding from Comic Relief. In a sense, Comic Relief itself is in the voluntary sector, so again there is no long-term certainty in that source of funding.

My final example is the Simpsons House Prisoner Offenders Project, which provides a through-care service. The project does tremendous work and touches on an issue that I raised in this morning's debate. This debate follows on well from the earlier debate, when drug abuse issues and the problems faced by prisoners were raised. I made the point that we should not see prisons as an end in themselves, but that prisoners on release should receive a through- care approach from social services and others. The Simpsons House Prisoner Offenders Project has no statutory funding, receives 30 per cent of its funding from Lloyds TSB and has waited since March to hear from Lothian Health Board.

I hope that when the chancellor's war chest, or Treasury chest, is finally opened—perhaps ministers will attempt to find the key to it more quickly than him—more money will be disbursed to the voluntary sector from central Government. That sector should not have to rely increasingly on lottery funding, banks and corporations, which produces only instability. We need three-year core funding, towards which the Scottish Executive, local government and bodies such as health boards should work strongly.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4983548+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C708506", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26870, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 561.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 561.0, "ID": 26870, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 613.0, "ContributionID": 708506, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4983548+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C708509", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26870, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 561.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 561.0, "ID": 26870, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 619.0, "ContributionID": 708509, "EditedText": "The member has finished, Mr Gallie. Please sit down.", "EditedTextHTML": "The member has finished, Mr Gallie. Please sit down.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4983548+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C708512", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26870, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 561.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 561.0, "ID": 26870, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 626.0, "ContributionID": 708512, "EditedText": "Will the member wind up now, please?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member wind up now, please?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4983548+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2066E64P88C708526", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26870, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 561.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 561.0, "ID": 26870, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McGrigor, Jamie", "ID": 2066, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie McGrigor", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McGrigor: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 662.0, "ContributionID": 708526, "EditedText": "Will the Executive take on board the fact that a lot of the voluntary organisations that are being funded have to pay back a lot of money in VAT? For example, the Royal National Lifeboat Institution is paying back £1.5 million a year. Will the Executive address that matter?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the Executive take on board the fact that a lot of the voluntary organisations that are being funded have to pay back a lot of money in VAT? For example, the Royal National Lifeboat Institution is paying back £1.5 million a year. Will the Executive address that matter?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4983548+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C708519", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26870, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 561.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 561.0, "ID": 26870, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 643.0, "ContributionID": 708519, "EditedText": "Wind up now, please.", "EditedTextHTML": "Wind up now, please.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4983548+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1970E66P288C708520", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26870, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 561.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 561.0, "ID": 26870, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNulty, Des", "ID": 1970, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Clydebank and Milngavie" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Des McNulty", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Des McNulty: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 645.0, "ContributionID": 708520, "EditedText": "I will wind up in a second.The voluntary sector also involves people. If social inclusion is to mean anything, the direct participation of those who work for voluntary organisations and other people is vital to the delivery of services. I welcome the commitment to examine the level of volunteering in the older industrial areas where volunteering is not as common as it is in more prosperous areas. I might be unique—although Jackie Baillie might be in a similar situation—in having a relatively prosperous area and an older industrial area in my constituency. I would like to see parity in terms of voluntary sector activity in those areas. There is much that we can do and I urge the minister to examine the possibility of simplifying the requirements on voluntary organisations in accessing funding. It would be great if we were able to simplify that process and make it more transparent. In conclusion, the Kemp commission recognised the need to revise charity law. The commitment to do that, which was made by the Government prior to the election, must be honoured. I hope that that will happen in due course.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will wind up in a second.

The voluntary sector also involves people. If social inclusion is to mean anything, the direct participation of those who work for voluntary organisations and other people is vital to the delivery of services.

I welcome the commitment to examine the level of volunteering in the older industrial areas where volunteering is not as common as it is in more prosperous areas.

I might be unique—although Jackie Baillie might be in a similar situation—in having a relatively prosperous area and an older industrial area in my

constituency. I would like to see parity in terms of voluntary sector activity in those areas.

There is much that we can do and I urge the minister to examine the possibility of simplifying the requirements on voluntary organisations in accessing funding. It would be great if we were able to simplify that process and make it more transparent.

In conclusion, the Kemp commission recognised the need to revise charity law. The commitment to do that, which was made by the Government prior to the election, must be honoured. I hope that that will happen in due course.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4983548+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1751E163P286C708523", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26870, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 561.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 561.0, "ID": 26870, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Craigie, Cathie", "ID": 1751, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Cumbernauld and Kilsyth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Cathie Craigie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Cathie Craigie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 654.0, "ContributionID": 708523, "EditedText": "I whole-heartedly support Jackie Baillie's motion and I congratulate her on her opening remarks. The importance and value of the voluntary sector in Scotland was ignored for too long. The benefits of volunteering for both the community and the individual were undervalued; they should not have been. Volunteers benefit by gaining more confidence in themselves, their skills and their abilities; moreover, their job prospects become brighter. In turn, their efforts benefit both the voluntary organisation and the local community as a whole. Lack of motivation, lack of involvement and lack of training and skills are so often the causes of social exclusion, and the promotion of the voluntary sector plays a valuable part in tackling it. Consultation and dialogue between the Scottish Executive and the voluntary sector is the best way for Scotland to gain even larger benefits from our volunteers. I know that the Executive is committed to guaranteed independence for voluntary organisations, and those involved in the voluntary sector should be encouraged to feel free to criticise the work of Government, regardless of their sources of funding. The direct involvement in policy making of people who work in the voluntary sector has obvious benefits, and their unique knowledge should be used to advantage. The importance of the voluntary sector to the people of Scotland is especially evident in my constituency. The voluntary sector is particularly active in Cumbernauld and Kilsyth, where there are more than 200 organisations, most of which are small, with between one and 10 volunteers and with only one or two full-time staff. One such organisation is the Alpha project, which has been running for more than 30 years. Its aim is to provide practical help and solutions to the everyday problems of people with physical disabilities. Thirteen staff and 10 volunteers supply expert personal care and support and are fully trained to carry out a full range of day care services. Those who are helped by the Alpha project are individually assessed for their physical and their psychological needs. They derive benefit from the project, but the staff and volunteers also benefit greatly. In July, the Alpha project was the first organisation of its kind in Lanarkshire to be given an Investors in People award. That is something of which the people who have been involved over the years are very proud. The value of the voluntary sector in Scotland, both for the community and for those who work in the sector and gain great benefits from it, should not be underestimated. The minister, as has been said, has a background in the voluntary sector and recognises the importance of the sector and of its independence. I am sure that she will promote dialogue and consultation to encourage the sector and to maximise the benefits that it brings to all of us. I wish her luck.", "EditedTextHTML": "I whole-heartedly support Jackie Baillie's motion and I congratulate her on her opening remarks.

The importance and value of the voluntary sector in Scotland was ignored for too long. The benefits of volunteering for both the community and the individual were undervalued; they should not have been. Volunteers benefit by gaining more confidence in themselves, their skills and their abilities; moreover, their job prospects become brighter. In turn, their efforts benefit both the voluntary organisation and the local community as a whole. Lack of motivation, lack of involvement and lack of training and skills are so often the causes of social exclusion, and the promotion of the voluntary sector plays a valuable part in tackling it.

Consultation and dialogue between the Scottish Executive and the voluntary sector is the best way for Scotland to gain even larger benefits from our

volunteers. I know that the Executive is committed to guaranteed independence for voluntary organisations, and those involved in the voluntary sector should be encouraged to feel free to criticise the work of Government, regardless of their sources of funding.

The direct involvement in policy making of people who work in the voluntary sector has obvious benefits, and their unique knowledge should be used to advantage.

The importance of the voluntary sector to the people of Scotland is especially evident in my constituency. The voluntary sector is particularly active in Cumbernauld and Kilsyth, where there are more than 200 organisations, most of which are small, with between one and 10 volunteers and with only one or two full-time staff.

One such organisation is the Alpha project, which has been running for more than 30 years. Its aim is to provide practical help and solutions to the everyday problems of people with physical disabilities. Thirteen staff and 10 volunteers supply expert personal care and support and are fully trained to carry out a full range of day care services.

Those who are helped by the Alpha project are individually assessed for their physical and their psychological needs. They derive benefit from the project, but the staff and volunteers also benefit greatly. In July, the Alpha project was the first organisation of its kind in Lanarkshire to be given an Investors in People award. That is something of which the people who have been involved over the years are very proud.

The value of the voluntary sector in Scotland, both for the community and for those who work in the sector and gain great benefits from it, should not be underestimated. The minister, as has been said, has a background in the voluntary sector and recognises the importance of the sector and of its independence. I am sure that she will promote dialogue and consultation to encourage the sector and to maximise the benefits that it brings to all of us. I wish her luck.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4983548+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1962E35P56C708524", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26870, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 561.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 561.0, "ID": 26870, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mundell, David", "ID": 1962, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Mundell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David Mundell (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 657.0, "ContributionID": 708524, "EditedText": "I welcome the debate as an explicit recognition of the importance of the voluntary sector to society. I was particularly interested in Jackie's remarks on the geographic spread of voluntary organisations and activities. The chief executive of Annandale and Eskdale Council for Voluntary Service told me that there are 500 voluntary organisations in that area, which contains only about 40,000 people. In some ways, we must welcome such a diversity of organisations but that strength may also be a weakness, as the volunteers and the financial resources are thinly spread. In many small communities, a core of people are involved in all the organisations, which would not function without them. I have been struck by the volume of correspondence I have received from a multitude of organisations across Scotland that appear to overlap in their activities. I welcome the minister's suggestion that she would welcome a review into whether there should be fewer but better-focused, better-resourced organisations, which I believe would be in the best interests of the voluntary sector and of society. I hope that we recognise the complexity of the task of those who work in the voluntary sector. We have heard a lot of praise for volunteers this afternoon but those who manage and co-ordinate them are not given the credit that they deserve. My background is not in voluntary organisations but in business—Wendy will know phrases such as \"sweating the matrix\" and other such management techniques. When I became a parliamentary candidate and had to work more closely with volunteers than I had been accustomed to, I realised what a challenge their work was, even when people were wanting to help and offer support—it is a complicated and important job. I am pleased with what has been said about funding. However, many organisations receive Government money from a number of different sources; there may be a better process of distributing funding than for money to come from the local council, central Government, the local enterprise company, the health board and perhaps lottery funding. Money is cascaded down by the Government and comes back together in a single organisation. Are we wasting resources because of the way in which money gets to the end user? My final point is one that Cathy Jamieson also made. It would be helpful if Jackie had a word in the ear of the transport minister—or perhaps her new deputy who appeared for her today—about transport costs for the voluntary sector. The voluntary sector has to pay fuel duty and in vast rural areas that can be a problem. An example is Dumfries and District Women's Aid, which was mentioned in the domestic violence debate. The organisation can be effective only if it can get out and help people in the remoter parts of the community, but that means that there are fuel costs.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the debate as an explicit recognition of the importance of the voluntary sector to society. I was particularly interested in Jackie's remarks on the geographic spread of voluntary organisations and activities. The chief executive of Annandale and Eskdale Council for Voluntary Service told me that there are 500 voluntary organisations in that area, which contains only about 40,000 people. In some ways, we must welcome such a diversity of organisations but that strength may also be a weakness, as the volunteers and the financial resources are thinly spread. In many small communities, a core of people are involved in all the organisations, which would not function without them.

I have been struck by the volume of correspondence I have received from a multitude of organisations across Scotland that appear to overlap in their activities. I welcome the minister's suggestion that she would welcome a review into whether there should be fewer but better-focused, better-resourced organisations, which I believe would be in the best interests of the voluntary sector and of society.

I hope that we recognise the complexity of the task of those who work in the voluntary sector. We have heard a lot of praise for volunteers this afternoon but those who manage and co-ordinate them are not given the credit that they deserve. My background is not in voluntary organisations but in business—Wendy will know phrases such as \"sweating the matrix\" and other such management techniques. When I became a parliamentary candidate and had to work more closely with volunteers than I had been accustomed to, I realised what a challenge their work was, even when people were wanting to help and offer support—it is a complicated and important job.

I am pleased with what has been said about funding. However, many organisations receive Government money from a number of different sources; there may be a better process of distributing funding than for money to come from the local council, central Government, the local enterprise company, the health board and perhaps lottery funding. Money is cascaded down by the Government and comes back together in a single organisation. Are we wasting resources because of the way in which money gets to the end user?

My final point is one that Cathy Jamieson also made. It would be helpful if Jackie had a word in the ear of the transport minister—or perhaps her new deputy who appeared for her today—about transport costs for the voluntary sector. The voluntary sector has to pay fuel duty and in vast rural areas that can be a problem. An example is Dumfries and District Women's Aid, which was mentioned in the domestic violence debate. The organisation can be effective only if it can get out and help people in the remoter parts of the community, but that means that there are fuel costs.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4983548+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2029E47P167C708525", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26870, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 561.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 561.0, "ID": 26870, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Henry, Hugh", "ID": 2029, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Hugh Henry", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Hugh Henry (Paisley South) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 660.0, "ContributionID": 708525, "EditedText": "I have worked in the private, public and voluntary sectors and that experience has shown me that the voluntary sector—which has also been described as the third sector or the social economy—is innovative, imaginative, dynamic and flexible. The voluntary sector is also democratic and accountable in a way that many organisations in other sectors are not. As well as sometimes being a weakness, that is also one of its underlying strengths, because it brings the sector close to the community and to the people who rely on its services. It is significant that, in this debate, many speakers have taken the time to praise the efforts of the countless volunteers throughout Scotland who make such a significant contribution to the quality of life not just of communities but, as important, of individuals. Without those volunteers many people's lives would be severely blighted. It is important that we begin to talk about the social economy, because the sector is no longer just about volunteering. It is tremendously dynamic and has made a huge economic contribution in countless communities. For example, credit unions—I am a member of one—have made a significant economic contribution. Housing associations have also made a difference in many communities—we can see the effect that they have had on people's quality of life. Many housing associations have developed beyond being simply housing providers and now provide social care and employment opportunities. I would argue that housing associations have the potential to make a greater contribution to Scottish society than we are asking them to make. I hope that the Executive will look into that closely. If we are talking about added responsibility, we must also begin to talk about greater accountability. When the social economy and the voluntary sector are asked to take on greater responsibilities and receive more funding, they will have to be accountable, just as local authorities must be accountable. I hope that the Scottish Executive will examine ways of addressing that, not punitively, but positively.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have worked in the private, public and voluntary sectors and that experience has shown me that the voluntary sector—which has also been described

as the third sector or the social economy—is innovative, imaginative, dynamic and flexible.

The voluntary sector is also democratic and accountable in a way that many organisations in other sectors are not. As well as sometimes being a weakness, that is also one of its underlying strengths, because it brings the sector close to the community and to the people who rely on its services. It is significant that, in this debate, many speakers have taken the time to praise the efforts of the countless volunteers throughout Scotland who make such a significant contribution to the quality of life not just of communities but, as important, of individuals. Without those volunteers many people's lives would be severely blighted.

It is important that we begin to talk about the social economy, because the sector is no longer just about volunteering. It is tremendously dynamic and has made a huge economic contribution in countless communities. For example, credit unions—I am a member of one—have made a significant economic contribution.

Housing associations have also made a difference in many communities—we can see the effect that they have had on people's quality of life. Many housing associations have developed beyond being simply housing providers and now provide social care and employment opportunities. I would argue that housing associations have the potential to make a greater contribution to Scottish society than we are asking them to make. I hope that the Executive will look into that closely.

If we are talking about added responsibility, we must also begin to talk about greater accountability. When the social economy and the voluntary sector are asked to take on greater responsibilities and receive more funding, they will have to be accountable, just as local authorities must be accountable. I hope that the Scottish Executive will examine ways of addressing that, not punitively, but positively.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4983548+00:00" }, { "ID": "C708550", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26871, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 694.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 694.0, "ID": 26871, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 712.0, "ContributionID": 708550, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4983548+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C708538", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26870, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 561.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 561.0, "ID": 26870, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 690.0, "ContributionID": 708538, "EditedText": "No, let me continue.Many individual cases have been raised here—it is right that people do that. I will talk about some of the individual cases that I have seen recently. It devalues the stability and responsibility of health boards if I parachute a response in now. Of course members should write to the Scottish Executive if they feel that there is a case on which it has a locus, but, if not, we need to get the agencies responsible to take up the issue and feel a sense of responsibility about how they deal with the sector. Briefly on finance, I note in passing that because of the Government's management of the economy, we are in a position to increase funding to local government in Scotland by 4.8 per cent this year. That creates a climate that allows some of the things that we have talked about today to happen. The second issue is about support for the sector in general. Jackie has talked about the measures we are implementing for active citizenship, the giving age and millennium volunteers. We have talked about the infrastructure commitments we need to give, the review of councils for voluntary service and new cash to complete the network of volunteer development agencies. We have talked about the compact—I hope that the reassurances that have been given about the sector's independence reassure members about how we will move forward. I turn to the issue raised by George Reid, who pointed out some of the difficulties that we have in achieving joined-up government. I want to treat the civic forum with the seriousness that it deserves, so I will not rush to answer every one of his points. He is right that process matters. At the moment, secondees are talking to the Scottish Executive about how we will get the funding arrangements right for the civic forum. If the civic forum is to fulfil its potential, it cannot simply be about the voluntary sector. One reason why it is difficult to get joined-up government right in this area is the sheer ambition of trying to have a civic forum that involves the third sector, the private sector and ways of talking to Government. The third area is about why all this matters. Why do we have to support the third sector and the social economy? Members have talked about this. Bill Aitken said that it gives better decisions and more efficiency. Other people, including Cathy Peattie, have talked about getting innovation and about getting to the heart of the wickedest problems. I have seen two examples recently—everybody gets to talk about this in real terms. On Friday, I was at the Renfrewshire Association for Mental Health. It spends almost £1 million in Renfrewshire, but receives less than £100,000 of that from its local health board. Frankly, the range of its activities astonished me. I know that other members could contribute similar anecdotes. At lunchtime today, I was at the Glasgow lodging house mission. I talked to people who had spent more than 10 years on the streets of Glasgow. Many of them had been in prison and were looking for aftercare. Keith Raffan talked about the voluntary sector's commitment to getting aftercare provision for prisoners right. I say to him that steps are being taken across the Executive, such as the rough sleepers initiative. We will be announcing guidelines on the £14 million of new money that will allow the voluntary sector to contribute to better public policy. It is appropriate to give a bit of the long-term vision. How do we get to the heart of this matter? I may be controversial here. It is not just about motherhood and apple pie. The third sector matters because it is about community empowerment and about giving people more power over their own lives. One of the ways in which we are doing that is through the social inclusion partnerships. We have said that not only must there be community representatives on every one of those area-based partnerships, but there must be a representative of the voluntary sector. We have said that we need to put £2 million into letting community representatives have more influence over the decisions that are taken in their name. We have talked about people's panels and people's juries. Members will know that I also have responsibility for housing. We are going to put more than £300 million into new housing partnerships. That proposal is about community ownership and about putting communities and voluntary effort at the heart of how we govern our communities. It is about trusting people to make decisions about their lives. I hope that when we consider that proposal, it will be seen in that light. This debate has been about the new politics. Members should work here with us to make that new politics a reality, and out there in partnership with the third sector, which will be our best ally in that.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, let me continue.

Many individual cases have been raised here—it is right that people do that. I will talk about some of the individual cases that I have seen recently. It devalues the stability and responsibility of health boards if I parachute a response in now. Of course members should write to the Scottish Executive if they feel that there is a case on which it has a locus, but, if not, we need to get the agencies responsible to take up the issue and feel a sense of responsibility about how they deal with the sector.

Briefly on finance, I note in passing that because of the Government's management of the economy, we are in a position to increase funding to local government in Scotland by 4.8 per cent this year. That creates a climate that allows some of the things that we have talked about today to happen.

The second issue is about support for the sector in general. Jackie has talked about the measures we are implementing for active citizenship, the giving age and millennium volunteers. We have talked about the infrastructure commitments we need to give, the review of councils for voluntary service and new cash to complete the network of volunteer development agencies. We have talked about the compact—I hope that the reassurances that have been given about the sector's independence reassure members about how we will move forward.

I turn to the issue raised by George Reid, who pointed out some of the difficulties that we have in achieving joined-up government. I want to treat the civic forum with the seriousness that it deserves, so I will not rush to answer every one of his points. He is right that process matters. At the moment, secondees are talking to the Scottish Executive about how we will get the funding arrangements right for the civic forum. If the civic forum is to fulfil its potential, it cannot simply be about the voluntary sector. One reason why it is difficult to get joined-up government right in this area is the sheer ambition of trying to have a civic forum that involves the third sector, the private sector and ways of talking to Government.

The third area is about why all this matters. Why do we have to support the third sector and the social economy? Members have talked about this. Bill Aitken said that it gives better decisions and more efficiency. Other people, including Cathy Peattie, have talked about getting innovation and about getting to the heart of the wickedest problems.

I have seen two examples recently—everybody gets to talk about this in real terms. On Friday, I was at the Renfrewshire Association for Mental Health. It spends almost £1 million in Renfrewshire, but receives less than £100,000 of that from its local health board. Frankly, the range of its activities astonished me. I know that other members could contribute similar anecdotes.

At lunchtime today, I was at the Glasgow lodging house mission. I talked to people who had spent more than 10 years on the streets of Glasgow. Many of them had been in prison and were looking for aftercare. Keith Raffan talked about the voluntary sector's commitment to getting aftercare provision for prisoners right. I say to him that steps are being taken across the Executive, such as the rough sleepers initiative. We will be announcing guidelines on the £14 million of new money that will allow the voluntary sector to contribute to better public policy.

It is appropriate to give a bit of the long-term vision. How do we get to the heart of this matter? I may be controversial here. It is not just about motherhood and apple pie. The third sector matters because it is about community empowerment and about giving people more power over their own lives. One of the ways in which we are doing that is through the social inclusion partnerships. We have said that not only must there be community representatives on every one of those area-based partnerships, but there must be a representative of the voluntary sector. We have said that we need to put £2 million into letting community representatives have more influence over the decisions that are taken in their name. We have talked about people's panels and people's juries.

Members will know that I also have responsibility for housing. We are going to put more than £300 million into new housing partnerships. That proposal is about community ownership and about putting communities and voluntary effort at the heart of how we govern our communities. It is about trusting people to make decisions about their lives. I hope that when we consider that proposal, it will be seen in that light.

This debate has been about the new politics. Members should work here with us to make that new politics a reality, and out there in partnership with the third sector, which will be our best ally in that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4983548+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708539", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26870, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 561.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 561.0, "ID": 26870, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 692.0, "ContributionID": 708539, "EditedText": "The next item of business on the programme is consideration of other Parliamentary Bureau motions. I am glad to say that there is none, so we will move on to decision time.", "EditedTextHTML": "The next item of business on the programme is consideration of other Parliamentary Bureau motions. I am glad to say that there is none, so we will move on to decision time.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4983548+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708540", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26871, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 694.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 694.0, "ID": 26871, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 696.0, "ContributionID": 708540, "EditedText": "There are three questions that will have to be put as a result of today's business. Before that happens, I will make an announcement about the voting system. As members noticed yesterday—I should have announced it yesterday—there has been a small change to the electronic voting consoles. From now on, when the voting period begins, the red \"vote now\" light will begin to flash. It will stop flashing when the member presses the button to record their vote. This change will allow members to confirm that their vote has definitely been registered—until now we have not had that facility. I should point out that members will still be able to change their vote, within the voting period, while the \"vote now\" button remains illuminated. The first question is, that amendment S1M-163.1, in the name of Phil Gallie, which seeks to amend motion S1M-163, in the name of Angus MacKay, on crime prevention, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "There are three questions that will have to be put as a result of today's business. Before that happens, I will make an announcement about the voting system. As members noticed yesterday—I should have announced it yesterday—there has been a small change to the electronic voting consoles. From now on, when the voting period begins, the red \"vote now\" light will begin to flash. It will stop flashing when the member presses the button to record their vote. This change will allow members to confirm that their vote has definitely been registered—until now we have not had that facility. I should point out that members will still be able to change their vote, within the voting period, while the \"vote now\" button remains illuminated.

The first question is, that amendment S1M-163.1, in the name of Phil Gallie, which seeks to amend motion S1M-163, in the name of Angus MacKay, on crime prevention, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4983548+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708542", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26871, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 694.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 694.0, "ID": 26871, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 700.0, "ContributionID": 708542, "EditedText": "In that case, there will be a division. Those who support Mr Gallie's amendment should vote yes.", "EditedTextHTML": "In that case, there will be a division. Those who support Mr Gallie's amendment should vote yes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4983548+00:00" }, { "ID": "C708543", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26871, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 694.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 694.0, "ID": 26871, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 702.0, "ContributionID": 708543, "EditedText": "FOR Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)AGAINST Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)

AGAINST

Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4983548+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708544", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26871, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 694.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 694.0, "ID": 26871, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 703.0, "ContributionID": 708544, "EditedText": "The result is as follows: For 17, Against 57, Abstentions 0.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result is as follows: For 17, Against 57, Abstentions 0.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4983548+00:00" }, { "ID": "C708545", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26871, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 694.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 694.0, "ID": 26871, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 705.0, "ContributionID": 708545, "EditedText": "Amendment disagreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment disagreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4983548+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1783E59P270C708444", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26845, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26846, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "QuestionHeading": "Pensioners (Concessionary Travel)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26863, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 472.0, "DisplayOrder": 472.0, "ID": 26863, "ParentID": 26846 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Baillie, Jackie", "ID": 1783, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumbarton" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Jackie Baillie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Jackie Baillie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 477.0, "ContributionID": 708444, "EditedText": "The Executive is keen to make progress in such matters and is giving active consideration to establishing, with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities, a joint working group to examine ways in which we can harmonise the schemes.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Executive is keen to make progress in such matters and is giving active consideration to establishing, with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities, a joint working group to examine ways in which we can harmonise the schemes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:24:23.7026612+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1783E59P270C708492", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26870, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 561.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 561.0, "ID": 26870, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Baillie, Jackie", "ID": 1783, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumbarton" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Jackie Baillie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Jackie Baillie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 582.0, "ContributionID": 708492, "EditedText": "And the SNP's priorities.", "EditedTextHTML": "And the SNP's priorities.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:25:39.4616009+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1783E59P270C708490", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26870, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 561.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 561.0, "ID": 26870, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Baillie, Jackie", "ID": 1783, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumbarton" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Jackie Baillie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Jackie Baillie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 578.0, "ContributionID": 708490, "EditedText": "I have two questions, as Mr Quinan refused me the opportunity to ask a question earlier. First, the compact is endorsed by the Scottish Council for Voluntary Organisations, Volunteer Development Scotland and the Council of Voluntary Service Scotland, which represent the main infrastructure bodies of Scotland. Should we not trust them to guard the sector's independence and interests? I regret that he attacks a fundamental document, which has been jointly agreed. Secondly, will Mr Quinan comment on why the returns to the Scottish Executive of Angus Council, which is an SNP-controlled local authority, show £2.5 million of support to the voluntary sector in 1996-97, but £54,000 in 1997-98?", "EditedTextHTML": "I have two questions, as Mr Quinan refused me the opportunity to ask a question earlier. First, the compact is endorsed by

the Scottish Council for Voluntary Organisations, Volunteer Development Scotland and the Council of Voluntary Service Scotland, which represent the main infrastructure bodies of Scotland. Should we not trust them to guard the sector's independence and interests? I regret that he attacks a fundamental document, which has been jointly agreed.

Secondly, will Mr Quinan comment on why the returns to the Scottish Executive of Angus Council, which is an SNP-controlled local authority, show £2.5 million of support to the voluntary sector in 1996-97, but £54,000 in 1997-98?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:25:39.4616009+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1783E59P270C708488", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26870, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 561.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 561.0, "ID": 26870, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Baillie, Jackie", "ID": 1783, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumbarton" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Jackie Baillie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Jackie Baillie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 574.0, "ContributionID": 708488, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:25:39.4616009+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1769E16P282C708439", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26845, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26846, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "QuestionHeading": "Telecommunications Equipment", "QuestionHeadingID": 26862, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 465.0, "DisplayOrder": 465.0, "ID": 26862, "ParentID": 26846 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Smith, Elaine", "ID": 1769, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Coatbridge and Chryston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Smith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "17. Elaine Smith (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 466.0, "ContributionID": 708439, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what guidance it will give local authorities on the implementation of an article 4 direction to restrict permitted development and require application to be made for the erection of all telecommunications equipment, regardless of height. (S1O-376) The First Minister (Donald Dewar): Current guidance on the use of article 4 directions in relation to telecommunications developments is at paragraph 21 of the Scottish development department's circular 25/1985. We propose to introduce measures to give planning authorities greater influence over the siting and design of telecommunications developments generally, and masts in particular, as soon as possible; and will consider the need to amend the guidance at that time.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what guidance it will give local authorities on the implementation of an article 4 direction to restrict permitted development and require application to be made for the erection of all telecommunications equipment, regardless of height. (S1O-376) The First Minister (Donald Dewar): Current guidance on the use of article 4 directions in relation to telecommunications developments is at

paragraph 21 of the Scottish development department's circular 25/1985. We propose to introduce measures to give planning authorities greater influence over the siting and design of telecommunications developments generally, and masts in particular, as soon as possible; and will consider the need to amend the guidance at that time.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1769E16P282C708440", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26845, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26846, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "QuestionHeading": "Telecommunications Equipment", "QuestionHeadingID": 26862, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 465.0, "DisplayOrder": 465.0, "ID": 26862, "ParentID": 26846 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Smith, Elaine", "ID": 1769, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Coatbridge and Chryston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Smith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Elaine Smith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 468.0, "ContributionID": 708440, "EditedText": "What further guidance will be provided to local authorities with regard to the acceptance of public perception of danger as a valid planning consideration?", "EditedTextHTML": "What further guidance will be provided to local authorities with regard to the acceptance of public perception of danger as a valid planning consideration?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2123E103P242C708442", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26845, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26846, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "QuestionHeading": "Pensioners (Concessionary Travel)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26863, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 472.0, "DisplayOrder": 472.0, "ID": 26863, "ParentID": 26846 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Chisholm, Malcolm", "ID": 2123, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh North and Leith" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Malcolm Chisholm", "SpeakerDisplayName": "18. Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 473.0, "ContributionID": 708442, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it is considering measures to improve concessionary travel schemes for pensioners. (S1O-346) The Deputy Minister for Communities (Jackie Baillie): Schemes are currently administered by local authorities. We shall consider appropriate ways to encourage their improvement and integration for pensioners and people with special needs.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it is considering measures to improve concessionary travel schemes for pensioners. (S1O-346) The Deputy Minister for Communities (Jackie Baillie): Schemes are currently administered by local authorities. We shall consider appropriate ways to encourage their improvement and integration for pensioners and people with special needs.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1837E108P186C708445", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26845, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26846, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "QuestionHeading": "Deaf People", "QuestionHeadingID": 26864, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 479.0, "DisplayOrder": 479.0, "ID": 26864, "ParentID": 26846 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mulligan, Mary", "ID": 1837, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Linlithgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Mulligan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "19. Mrs Mary Mulligan (Linlithgow) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 480.0, "ContributionID": 708445, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it intends to set up a national register for deaf people. (S1O344) The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): The Scottish Executive has no current plans to set up a national register. We are committed to addressing the needs of deaf people and those with other disabilities across all the work of the Executive. Tomorrow, ministers will hold a disability issues theme day with a wide range of organisations, including those representing deaf people, to hear their views and to address issues of concern to them.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it intends to set up a national register for deaf people. (S1O344) The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): The Scottish Executive has no current plans to set up a national register. We are committed to addressing the needs of deaf people and those with other disabilities across all the work of the Executive. Tomorrow, ministers will hold a disability issues theme day with a wide range of organisations, including those representing deaf people, to hear their views and to address issues of concern to them.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1892E34P73C708461", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26865, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 486.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26866, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 489.0, "QuestionHeading": "Chancellor of the Exchequer (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26867, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 490.0, "DisplayOrder": 490.0, "ID": 26867, "ParentID": 26866 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Fergusson, Alex", "ID": 1892, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Fergusson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Fergusson (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 515.0, "ContributionID": 708461, "EditedText": "On a point of order.", "EditedTextHTML": "

On a point of order.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2167E79P155C708468", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26865, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 486.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26866, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 489.0, "QuestionHeading": "Education", "QuestionHeadingID": 26868, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 521.0, "DisplayOrder": 521.0, "ID": 26868, "ParentID": 26866 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Peacock, Peter", "ID": 2167, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Peter Peacock", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Peter Peacock: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 530.0, "ContributionID": 708468, "EditedText": "The important thing to recognise is that, in Scotland, resources for education are growing progressively. To ensure that we make progress in Scottish education, this Government has put money back in—something like £1.3 billion extra—to try to repair some of the damage that was done by our Conservative colleagues. The national grid for learning, which Nicola Sturgeon wanted to dismantle, has been put in place. There has also been the excellence fund, assistance in classrooms, measures to reduce class sizes and so on. The catalogue is almost endless. This Government is prepared to find the resources to improve education. Nicola Sturgeon mentioned the teachers' dispute. As Sam Galbraith indicated yesterday, we have made additional resources available to try to find a solution to that dispute and we remain willing to continue to hold discussions in the interests of finding a solution.", "EditedTextHTML": "The important thing to recognise is that, in Scotland, resources for education are growing progressively. To ensure that we make progress in Scottish education, this Government has put money back in—something like £1.3 billion extra—to try to repair some of the damage that was done by our Conservative colleagues. The national grid for learning, which Nicola Sturgeon wanted to dismantle, has been put in place. There has also been the excellence fund, assistance in classrooms, measures to reduce class sizes and so on. The catalogue is almost endless. This Government is prepared to find the resources to improve education.

Nicola Sturgeon mentioned the teachers' dispute. As Sam Galbraith indicated yesterday, we have made additional resources available to try to find a solution to that dispute and we remain willing to continue to hold discussions in the interests of finding a solution.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C708469", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26865, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 486.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26866, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 489.0, "QuestionHeading": "Education", "QuestionHeadingID": 26868, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 521.0, "DisplayOrder": 521.0, "ID": 26868, "ParentID": 26866 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Murray Tosh (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 532.0, "ContributionID": 708469, "EditedText": "Does the Scottish Executive understand the utter demoralisation throughout the secondary school education system at the proposal effectively to demolish the promoted posts structure?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the Scottish Executive understand the utter demoralisation throughout the secondary school education system at the proposal effectively to demolish the promoted posts structure?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C708471", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26865, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 486.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26866, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 489.0, "QuestionHeading": "Council of the Isles", "QuestionHeadingID": 26869, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 536.0, "DisplayOrder": 536.0, "ID": 26869, "ParentID": 26866 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "3. Mr Keith Raffan (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 537.0, "ContributionID": 708471, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what is the current position in regard to the establishment of the council of the isles. (S1O-354) The Minister for Finance (Mr Jack McConnell): Strand 3 of the Belfast agreement envisages the establishment of a British-Irish council. The council will comprise representatives of the British and Irish Governments, the devolved Administrations within the UK and the authorities in the Isle of Man, Jersey and Guernsey. A treaty providing for the council's establishment was signed in Dublin on 8 March. The council will come into operation on the day that the powers are devolved to the Northern Ireland Assembly.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what is the current position in regard to the establishment of the council of the isles. (S1O-354) The Minister for Finance (Mr Jack McConnell): Strand 3 of the Belfast agreement

envisages the establishment of a British-Irish council. The council will comprise representatives of the British and Irish Governments, the devolved Administrations within the UK and the authorities in the Isle of Man, Jersey and Guernsey. A treaty providing for the council's establishment was signed in Dublin on 8 March. The council will come into operation on the day that the powers are devolved to the Northern Ireland Assembly.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4983548+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C708475", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26865, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 486.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26866, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 489.0, "QuestionHeading": "Council of the Isles", "QuestionHeadingID": 26869, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 536.0, "DisplayOrder": 536.0, "ID": 26869, "ParentID": 26866 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 545.0, "ContributionID": 708475, "EditedText": "I could not agree more. The establishment of the British-Irish council will be a good thing for the people of Scotland, England, Wales, Northern Ireland and Ireland. That is a positive comment. We must respect the terms of the Belfast agreement and it is important that we encourage and help to smooth the road of progress towards devolved administration in Northern Ireland. Anything that we did to upset the balance in the short term or in the long term would be wrong.", "EditedTextHTML": "I could not agree more. The establishment of the British-Irish council will be a good thing for the people of Scotland, England, Wales, Northern Ireland and Ireland. That is a positive comment. We must respect the terms of the Belfast agreement and it is important that we encourage and help to smooth the road of progress towards devolved administration in Northern Ireland. Anything that we did to upset the balance in the short term or in the long term would be wrong.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4983548+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1916E38P70C708478", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26865, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 486.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26866, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 489.0, "QuestionHeading": "Council of the Isles", "QuestionHeadingID": 26869, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 536.0, "DisplayOrder": 536.0, "ID": 26869, "ParentID": 26866 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Ben", "ID": 1916, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ben Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ben Wallace (North-East Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 551.0, "ContributionID": 708478, "EditedText": "Will the minister confirm that members of this Parliament would be expected to sit in the council of the isles with members of Sinn Fein-IRA?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister confirm that members of this Parliament would be expected to sit in the council of the isles with members of Sinn Fein-IRA?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4983548+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2118E157P454C708493", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26870, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 561.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 561.0, "ID": 26870, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Quinan, Mr Lloyd", "ID": 2118, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lloyd Quinan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Quinan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 584.0, "ContributionID": 708493, "EditedText": "Jackie Baillie misunderstands what I am saying. I said at the beginning that we support what she said. I support the compact, but am merely pointing out certain elements about which some of the organisations that she has just named have concerns. There is not a blanket agreement to the compact at this stage, as she well knows.", "EditedTextHTML": "Jackie Baillie misunderstands what I am saying. I said at the beginning that we support what she said. I support the compact, but am merely pointing out certain elements about which some of the organisations that she has just named have concerns. There is not a blanket agreement to the compact at this stage, as she well knows.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4983548+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C708485", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26870, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 561.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 561.0, "ID": 26870, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Keith Raffan (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 567.0, "ContributionID": 708485, "EditedText": "Stability of funding is crucial to the sector. I welcome the Executive's commitment to three- year funding. The problem is—as I said in the Social Inclusion, Housing and Voluntary Sector Committee last week—that we need a similar commitment from local government and health boards.", "EditedTextHTML": "Stability of funding is crucial to the sector. I welcome the Executive's commitment to three- year funding. The problem is—as I said in the Social Inclusion, Housing and Voluntary Sector Committee last week—that we need a similar commitment from local government and health boards.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4983548+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2118E157P454C708495", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26870, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 561.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 561.0, "ID": 26870, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Quinan, Mr Lloyd", "ID": 2118, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lloyd Quinan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Quinan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 588.0, "ContributionID": 708495, "EditedText": "Fair enough.Was that an intervention?", "EditedTextHTML": "Fair enough.

Was that an intervention?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4983548+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2118E157P454C708499", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26870, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 561.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 561.0, "ID": 26870, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Quinan, Mr Lloyd", "ID": 2118, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lloyd Quinan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Quinan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 596.0, "ContributionID": 708499, "EditedText": "Let us consider the burden that has been placed on the third sector as a result of the policies of this Government and of the previous Government. Policies such as the new deal and changes in social work practice build in an assumption that the voluntary sector will be called on for part of policy implementation. That involvement and partnership are welcome, but the flow must be two-way and the third sector should have a say in policy development. As a consequence of that assumption, there has been a growing pressure on the work load of voluntary organisations. The cut in council budgets, to which the deputy minister referred, and the consequent cuts especially in social work services and housing, have left holes that the voluntary sector has been forced to fill. That further increases the work load of voluntary organisations. It highlights the need for third-sector involvement at the heart of policy making. One means of doing that is through the civic forum, to which several of my colleagues will refer later in the debate. We should take on board the view of the consultative steering group report, that we should make use of the civic forum at the centre of government. We thank the Executive for the move to three- year accounting, which will ensure stability and sustainability for most of the voluntary sector. However, the cost of repeated recruitment, the associated advertising and short-term contracts is far too expensive for any business and far too expensive for the third sector. Having recognised the vital work done by the voluntary sector, particularly in regard to the alleviation of poverty, the SNP believes that the Parliament should strengthen, or make statutory, the links between local government and the third sector. Let us recognise the wealth of experience and expertise available from voluntary organisations and give them a voice at the heart of government. We should support and expand the work of the credit unions. Let us consider legislation, here or indeed at Westminster, to create a more level playing field in which the credit union movement could flourish. I thank the Executive for the motion; the SNP is glad to support it.", "EditedTextHTML": "Let us consider the burden that has been placed on the third sector as a result of the policies of this Government and of the previous Government. Policies such as the new deal and changes in social work practice build in an assumption that the voluntary sector will be called on for part of policy implementation. That involvement and partnership are welcome, but the flow must be two-way and the third sector should have a say in policy development. As a consequence of that assumption, there has been a growing pressure on the work load of voluntary organisations.

The cut in council budgets, to which the deputy minister referred, and the consequent cuts especially in social work services and housing, have left holes that the voluntary sector has been forced to fill. That further increases the work load of voluntary organisations. It highlights the need for third-sector involvement at the heart of policy making.

One means of doing that is through the civic forum, to which several of my colleagues will refer later in the debate. We should take on board the view of the consultative steering group report, that we should make use of the civic forum at the centre of government.

We thank the Executive for the move to three- year accounting, which will ensure stability and sustainability for most of the voluntary sector. However, the cost of repeated recruitment, the associated advertising and short-term contracts is far too expensive for any business and far too expensive for the third sector.

Having recognised the vital work done by the voluntary sector, particularly in regard to the alleviation of poverty, the SNP believes that the Parliament should strengthen, or make statutory, the links between local government and the third sector. Let us recognise the wealth of experience and expertise available from voluntary organisations and give them a voice at the heart of government.

We should support and expand the work of the credit unions. Let us consider legislation, here or indeed at Westminster, to create a more level playing field in which the credit union movement could flourish.

I thank the Executive for the motion; the SNP is glad to support it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4983548+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1752E75P296C708507", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26870, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 561.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 561.0, "ID": 26870, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jamieson, Cathy", "ID": 1752, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Cathy Jamieson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Cathy Jamieson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 615.0, "ContributionID": 708507, "EditedText": "I want to have time to meet the organisations and talk to the people. I still want to give some of my time on a voluntary basis, in my way and in my area.", "EditedTextHTML": "I want to have time to meet the organisations and talk to the people. I still want to give some of my time on a voluntary basis, in my way and in my area.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4983548+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C708508", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26870, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 561.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 561.0, "ID": 26870, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 617.0, "ContributionID": 708508, "EditedText": "Can I just clarify—", "EditedTextHTML": "Can I just clarify—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4983548+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C708510", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26870, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 561.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 561.0, "ID": 26870, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 621.0, "ContributionID": 708510, "EditedText": "I was robbed.", "EditedTextHTML": "I was robbed.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4983548+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1754E157P235C708514", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26870, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 561.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 561.0, "ID": 26870, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Peattie, Cathy", "ID": 1754, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Cathy Peattie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Cathy Peattie (Falkirk East) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 631.0, "ContributionID": 708514, "EditedText": "First, I must declare an interest. I am still actively involved in volunteering and the voluntary sector, as I am sure many people here are. Until October, I am also convener of the Council of Voluntary Service Scotland. I hope that members will forgive me if I mention some issues relating to the CVS. I thank Jackie Baillie for introducing this motion on the voluntary sector. It is like a breath of fresh air to be talking about the voluntary sector and about partnership. I agree with Phil Gallie that the voluntary sector has flourished in Scotland, but sometimes that was in spite of the Conservative Government, rather than because of it. Jackie talked about the number of people who are employed in the voluntary sector—60,000. There are 27,000 charities in Scotland and 40,000 voluntary organisations, which makes it a big sector. Eighty-six per cent of voluntary organisations are local organisations, run and managed by local people working at grass-roots level. That is an important point. In the field of social inclusion, umbrella organisations such as the Council of Voluntary Service can get to the part that others cannot reach—they have the Heineken effect, if members will excuse me for referring to the commercial. Such organisations can get to communities, because the people who are involved in them live in the communities. That is why such organisations are valuable. The same is true in rural areas. Voluntary organisations work across the spectrum. They are not just about meals on wheels, although that is important, but about social care and development, education, culture and recreation, economic development and ensuring a strong input into the social economy, and children and young people. Members have been talking about their areas, so I will tell members about a success story in mine. Yogi's Sobar is a non-alcohol bar run by and for young people. Members could try to tell those young people about the voluntary sector or talk to them about politics, but they would be given a hard time. Those youngsters cannot be flannelled; they know where they are going. That is the kind of project that we should support—projects that are not just about doing good things for poor people, but about encouraging people to become involved. The voluntary sector is also involved in health and employment. It has played a key role in the new deal in Scotland and has probably performed better than everyone else in the United Kingdom. The sector is also involved in the environment and community development. I could go on, but I know that I have only four minutes. Scotland should be proud of its voluntary sector, but it is not a cheap option. The attitude cannot be, \"We will run it on the cheap with volunteers and that will be okay.\" The sector must be supported and valued. Cathy Jamieson is right: voluntary organisations have struggled over the years, not only to deliver a professional service, but to raise the resources to enable them to do so. As any voluntary sector worker will say, it is the only sector where workers have got to go out and raise the money for their own wages. If workers do not get paid in March, that is because there is not enough money in the budget. We need to do something about that and that is why I welcome this motion and the minister's commitment to a strong infrastructure for the voluntary sector in Scotland. We should value and recognise the voluntary sector as partners in policy making and in our work. I hear what the minister says about the compact and that we have to start at the very beginning with it. The compact in Scotland was the result of a partnership between the voluntary sector and the Government. It was not a document that people agreed bits and pieces of—every line and every phrase was agreed in partnership. It is up to us and to the voluntary sector to ensure that the compact is monitored. I hope, Jackie, that it will come back to the Parliament to be reviewed. We welcome this debate and I look forward to working with the voluntary sector in Scotland in the future.", "EditedTextHTML": "First, I must declare an interest. I am still actively involved in volunteering and the voluntary sector, as I am sure many people here are. Until October, I am also convener of the Council of Voluntary Service Scotland. I hope that members will forgive me if I mention some issues relating to the CVS.

I thank Jackie Baillie for introducing this motion on the voluntary sector. It is like a breath of fresh air to be talking about the voluntary sector and about partnership. I agree with Phil Gallie that the voluntary sector has flourished in Scotland, but sometimes that was in spite of the Conservative Government, rather than because of it.

Jackie talked about the number of people who are employed in the voluntary sector—60,000. There are 27,000 charities in Scotland and 40,000 voluntary organisations, which makes it a big sector. Eighty-six per cent of voluntary organisations are local organisations, run and managed by local people working at grass-roots level. That is an important point.

In the field of social inclusion, umbrella organisations such as the Council of Voluntary Service can get to the part that others cannot reach—they have the Heineken effect, if members will excuse me for referring to the commercial. Such organisations can get to communities, because the people who are involved in them live in the communities. That is why such organisations are valuable. The same is true in rural areas.

Voluntary organisations work across the spectrum. They are not just about meals on wheels, although that is important, but about social care and development, education, culture and recreation, economic development and ensuring a strong input into the social economy, and children and young people. Members have been talking about their areas, so I will tell members about a success story in mine.

Yogi's Sobar is a non-alcohol bar run by and for young people. Members could try to tell those young people about the voluntary sector or talk to them about politics, but they would be given a hard time. Those youngsters cannot be flannelled; they know where they are going. That is the kind of project that we should support—projects that are not just about doing good things for poor people, but about encouraging people to become involved.

The voluntary sector is also involved in health and employment. It has played a key role in the new deal in Scotland and has probably performed better than everyone else in the United Kingdom. The sector is also involved in the environment and community development. I could go on, but I know that I have only four minutes.

Scotland should be proud of its voluntary sector, but it is not a cheap option. The attitude cannot be, \"We will run it on the cheap with volunteers and that will be okay.\" The sector must be supported and valued.

Cathy Jamieson is right: voluntary organisations have struggled over the years, not only to deliver a professional service, but to raise the resources to enable them to do so. As any voluntary sector worker will say, it is the only sector where workers have got to go out and raise the money for their own wages.

If workers do not get paid in March, that is because there is not enough money in the budget. We need to do something about that and that is why I welcome this motion and the minister's commitment to a strong infrastructure for the voluntary sector in Scotland. We should value and recognise the voluntary sector as partners in policy making and in our work.

I hear what the minister says about the compact and that we have to start at the very beginning

with it. The compact in Scotland was the result of a partnership between the voluntary sector and the Government. It was not a document that people agreed bits and pieces of—every line and every phrase was agreed in partnership. It is up to us and to the voluntary sector to ensure that the compact is monitored. I hope, Jackie, that it will come back to the Parliament to be reviewed.

We welcome this debate and I look forward to working with the voluntary sector in Scotland in the future.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4983548+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2066E64P88C708515", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26870, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 561.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 561.0, "ID": 26870, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McGrigor, Jamie", "ID": 2066, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie McGrigor", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Jamie McGrigor (Highlands and Islands) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 634.0, "ContributionID": 708515, "EditedText": "There are many commendable voluntary groups and bodies in the Highlands and Islands, but in respect of the geography and topography of the area, there are two that stand out in importance. We have many beautiful but dangerous mountains and miles of equally beautiful and dangerous coastline that are visited by thousands of people. Luckily, we have the mountain rescue squads and the lifeboats. Both of those excellent organisations are totally supported by the public's voluntary contributions and they are fiercely independent. They not only save many lives but also save us, the general public, an enormous and unquantifiable sum of money each year. In the '70s, the then Prime Minister, Jim Callaghan, asked a lifeboat convener what it cost to fund the lifeboats. The reply was £17 million, to which Jim said that it would cost 10 times more if the service was run by the Government. Perhaps he exaggerated, but there is no reason to suppose that the equation has changed much. The Royal National Lifeboat Institution funding requirement, which today is £70 million, represents a far greater figure in financial savings to our people. The lifeboats are supported entirely by the public; they have no help, financial or otherwise, from the Government, so no strings are attached. There is partnership, in that the lifeboats work closely with paid civil servants, such as coastguards, who normally alert them to casualties, and the other rescue services. Occasionally, RNLI research has been useful to the Royal Navy. There are 250 lifeboat stations, of which 45 are in Scotland. All are voluntary with one paid man per boat, who is usually the mechanic or coxswain. The new fast boats, which do 25 knots, can operate out to 50 miles and co-operate with the helicopters. The operational side is run from the headquarters in Poole, but there are operational and technical staff in Scotland who work with stations independently and keep in touch with headquarters. The present chief of operations was trained in Scotland. The make-up of crews varies greatly nowadays. For example, my local station in Oban, Argyll, has a master mariner as cox and a lawyer, a doctor, a cook, a shopkeeper and a fisherman as crew—people from all walks of life who take great pride in being a cog in this inspiring network. The fund-raising headquarters is in Edinburgh and Scotland has the best per capita fund-raising record in the UK. There are hundreds of large and small fund-raising organisations, both coastal and inland. The cox decides whether the lifeboat sails; we must remember that when ordinary craft come in to shelter, the lifeboat is going out. The RNLI saves more than 3,000 lives each year— sometimes at the cost of the lives of the crew. In 1971, the Longhope disaster occurred, in which nearly the whole crew perished. Despite Longhope being a tiny community, a replacement crew was in place within 24 hours. A year later, there was another lifeboat disaster in Fraserburgh—again, that did not deter recruitment. The Lochaber mountain rescue squad is the largest of the squads and, like the lifeboats, is entirely funded by the public. It costs £60,000 per annum to run and has so far undertaken 64 rescues this year—some of which were multiple rescues, not just individual rescues—and that figure is likely to rise to 90 rescues per annum. The squad works in partnership with the police, who supply it with some £1,500 of equipment per annum. It has access to the Sea King helicopters and services at Lossiemouth and HMS Gannet station in Prestwick. Each year, the squad raises some £20,000 from the highly popular Glen Nevis river race, which is also a great tourist attraction. Like the lifeboat people, the mountain rescue teams work in terrifying conditions for no money because they want to help others. Those wonderful organisations, financed by the public, save many lives and an enormous amount of money. They also provide the space for individual and team acts of bravery and self-sacrifice which inspire pride in people and in communities. With the millennium approaching, it is probable that there will be more exuberant, ill-equipped amateur mountaineers, and possibly more would- be Sinbads putting to sea in unsuitable craft. It would be helpful if the Executive could offset problems by putting out information through television, leaflets and information centres, warning of the considerable dangers of climbing and sailing in the Highlands and Islands in winter and during the millennium.", "EditedTextHTML": "There are many commendable voluntary groups and bodies in the Highlands and Islands, but in respect of the geography and topography of the area, there are two that stand out in importance. We have many beautiful but dangerous mountains and miles of equally beautiful and dangerous coastline that are visited by thousands of people.

Luckily, we have the mountain rescue squads and the lifeboats. Both of those excellent organisations are totally supported by the public's voluntary contributions and they are fiercely independent. They not only save many lives but also save us, the general public, an enormous and unquantifiable sum of money each year. In the '70s, the then Prime Minister, Jim Callaghan, asked a lifeboat convener what it cost to fund the lifeboats. The reply was £17 million, to which Jim said that it would cost 10 times more if the service was run by the Government. Perhaps he exaggerated, but there is no reason to suppose that the equation has changed much. The Royal National Lifeboat Institution funding requirement, which today is £70 million, represents a far greater figure in financial savings to our people.

The lifeboats are supported entirely by the public; they have no help, financial or otherwise, from the Government, so no strings are attached. There is partnership, in that the lifeboats work closely with paid civil servants, such as coastguards, who normally alert them to casualties, and the other rescue services. Occasionally, RNLI research has been useful to the Royal Navy.

There are 250 lifeboat stations, of which 45 are in Scotland. All are voluntary with one paid man per boat, who is usually the mechanic or coxswain. The new fast boats, which do 25 knots, can operate out to 50 miles and co-operate with the helicopters. The operational side is run from the headquarters in Poole, but there are operational and technical staff in Scotland who work with stations independently and keep in touch with headquarters.

The present chief of operations was trained in Scotland. The make-up of crews varies greatly nowadays. For example, my local station in Oban, Argyll, has a master mariner as cox and a lawyer, a doctor, a cook, a shopkeeper and a fisherman as crew—people from all walks of life who take great pride in being a cog in this inspiring network.

The fund-raising headquarters is in Edinburgh and Scotland has the best per capita fund-raising record in the UK. There are hundreds of large and small fund-raising organisations, both coastal and inland. The cox decides whether the lifeboat sails; we must remember that when ordinary craft come in to shelter, the lifeboat is going out. The RNLI saves more than 3,000 lives each year— sometimes at the cost of the lives of the crew. In 1971, the Longhope disaster occurred, in which nearly the whole crew perished. Despite Longhope being a tiny community, a replacement crew was in place within 24 hours. A year later, there was another lifeboat disaster in Fraserburgh—again, that did not deter recruitment.

The Lochaber mountain rescue squad is the largest of the squads and, like the lifeboats, is entirely funded by the public. It costs £60,000 per annum to run and has so far undertaken 64 rescues this year—some of which were multiple rescues, not just individual rescues—and that figure is likely to rise to 90 rescues per annum. The squad works in partnership with the police, who supply it with some £1,500 of equipment per annum. It has access to the Sea King helicopters and services at Lossiemouth and HMS Gannet station in Prestwick. Each year, the squad raises some £20,000 from the highly popular Glen Nevis river race, which is also a great tourist attraction.

Like the lifeboat people, the mountain rescue teams work in terrifying conditions for no money because they want to help others. Those wonderful organisations, financed by the public, save many lives and an enormous amount of money. They also provide the space for individual and team acts of bravery and self-sacrifice which inspire pride in people and in communities.

With the millennium approaching, it is probable that there will be more exuberant, ill-equipped amateur mountaineers, and possibly more would- be Sinbads putting to sea in unsuitable craft. It would be helpful if the Executive could offset problems by putting out information through television, leaflets and information centres, warning of the considerable dangers of climbing and sailing in the Highlands and Islands in winter and during the millennium.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4983548+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1970E66P288C708516", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26870, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 561.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 561.0, "ID": 26870, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNulty, Des", "ID": 1970, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Clydebank and Milngavie" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Des McNulty", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Des McNulty (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 637.0, "ContributionID": 708516, "EditedText": "I welcome the motion, which recognises the importance of the voluntary sector in carrying forward key elements of the Government's social inclusion strategy. I also welcome the consensus that there appears to be around the motion. The minister's proposals, in particular the establishment of the voluntary issues unit, will significantly advance the sector's capability to deliver its part of the agenda. I also welcome the earlier commitment to look at the Council of Voluntary Service and to take that issue forward. As a member of the Kemp commission, I spent a considerable amount of time between 1995 and 1997 listening to people who work in the voluntary sector, to its clients and to organisations that commission services from the sector. The commission talked to people about their achievements, their concerns and their aspirations. I was impressed by the sheer scope and range of voluntary sector organisations, the efficiency of both paid and voluntary staff and the capacity of the sector to innovate and respond to the needs it seeks to meet. At the time of the Kemp commission's work, the key challenge facing the voluntary sector in Scotland was dealing with the disruption caused by local government reorganisation. That disruption was the fault not of local government, but of the unwanted reorganisation imposed by central Government. It created a huge crisis for the voluntary sector—in many ways more acute than that for local government. There was a crisis in funding, and one caused by divergent policy requirements as the new authorities found their feet. It was abundantly clear to Kemp commission members that there was a pressing need for a new set of arrangements between local government, central Government and the voluntary sector. We envisaged a new type of partnership arrangement that would allow the sector to manage its activities better, while maintaining its strengths, among the most important of which are its flexibility and diversity. The commitments that the minister is bringing forward today go a long way toward making that partnership a reality. Lloyd Quinan said that he has been looking at this issue for only a few months and that he hopes local government will also commit to funding organisations for a three-year period. I must tell him that local government has been well in advance of central Government in building towards a three-year commitment. COSLA and the voluntary sector began to develop their positive partnership strategy in 1995 and earlier this year COSLA's voluntary sector task group, which is chaired by Mike McCarron, issued guidance to councils on the funding of voluntary organisations, which incorporated advice on a shift to three-year funding.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the motion, which recognises the

importance of the voluntary sector in carrying forward key elements of the Government's social inclusion strategy. I also welcome the consensus that there appears to be around the motion. The minister's proposals, in particular the establishment of the voluntary issues unit, will significantly advance the sector's capability to deliver its part of the agenda. I also welcome the earlier commitment to look at the Council of Voluntary Service and to take that issue forward.

As a member of the Kemp commission, I spent a considerable amount of time between 1995 and 1997 listening to people who work in the voluntary sector, to its clients and to organisations that commission services from the sector. The commission talked to people about their achievements, their concerns and their aspirations. I was impressed by the sheer scope and range of voluntary sector organisations, the efficiency of both paid and voluntary staff and the capacity of the sector to innovate and respond to the needs it seeks to meet.

At the time of the Kemp commission's work, the key challenge facing the voluntary sector in Scotland was dealing with the disruption caused by local government reorganisation. That disruption was the fault not of local government, but of the unwanted reorganisation imposed by central Government. It created a huge crisis for the voluntary sector—in many ways more acute than that for local government. There was a crisis in funding, and one caused by divergent policy requirements as the new authorities found their feet.

It was abundantly clear to Kemp commission members that there was a pressing need for a new set of arrangements between local government, central Government and the voluntary sector. We envisaged a new type of partnership arrangement that would allow the sector to manage its activities better, while maintaining its strengths, among the most important of which are its flexibility and diversity. The commitments that the minister is bringing forward today go a long way toward making that partnership a reality.

Lloyd Quinan said that he has been looking at this issue for only a few months and that he hopes local government will also commit to funding organisations for a three-year period. I must tell him that local government has been well in advance of central Government in building towards a three-year commitment. COSLA and the voluntary sector began to develop their positive partnership strategy in 1995 and earlier this year COSLA's voluntary sector task group, which is chaired by Mike McCarron, issued guidance to councils on the funding of voluntary organisations, which incorporated advice on a shift to three-year funding.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4983548+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1970E66P288C708518", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26870, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 561.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 561.0, "ID": 26870, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNulty, Des", "ID": 1970, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Clydebank and Milngavie" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Des McNulty", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Des McNulty: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 641.0, "ContributionID": 708518, "EditedText": "I agree that the situation in the past has been unsatisfactory. We now want to change it. Today's commitments will go a great way towards that. Including the urban programme, voluntary organisations currently get almost £60 million in direct funding from central Government. They get £110 million from local government and approximately £280 million from non-departmental public bodies, such as health boards, local enterprise companies, Scottish Homes and a host of other organisations. If we are moving towards a three-year funding arrangement, we should be looking at it across the range of Government activities. I hope that the minister will encourage her ministerial colleagues to adopt that approach across the budgets for which they are responsible. That could be an effective and cost-neutral way of boosting the voluntary sector's capability to contribute towards meeting the objectives and targets that the Government has set in its partnership document. It is crucial that we examine the situation in a holistic and rounded way. One of the great things about the voluntary sector is the multiplier effect of its work. Through individual giving, £320 million comes into the voluntary sector, and money is raised through other activities such as commercial activity. Significantly greater services are delivered by the voluntary service, compared with the public sector, for a given amount of money. That is why the voluntary sector is cost-effective.", "EditedTextHTML": "I agree that the situation in the past has been unsatisfactory. We now want to change it. Today's commitments will go a great way towards that. Including the urban programme, voluntary organisations currently get almost £60 million in direct funding from central Government. They get £110 million from local government and approximately £280 million from non-departmental public bodies, such as health boards, local enterprise companies, Scottish Homes and a host of other organisations.

If we are moving towards a three-year funding arrangement, we should be looking at it across the range of Government activities. I hope that the minister will encourage her ministerial colleagues to adopt that approach across the budgets for which they are responsible. That could be an effective and cost-neutral way of boosting the voluntary sector's capability to contribute towards meeting the objectives and targets that the Government has set in its partnership document.

It is crucial that we examine the situation in a holistic and rounded way. One of the great things about the voluntary sector is the multiplier effect of its work. Through individual giving, £320 million comes into the voluntary sector, and money is raised through other activities such as commercial activity.

Significantly greater services are delivered by the voluntary service, compared with the public sector, for a given amount of money. That is why the voluntary sector is cost-effective.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4983548+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C708522", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26870, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 561.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 561.0, "ID": 26870, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr George Reid (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 651.0, "ContributionID": 708522, "EditedText": "On days such as this, I feel that I am in the chamber not only as George Reid, SNP, but as George Reid, CSG. When the consultative steering group put together the building blocks for this Parliament, we acknowledged with gratitude the debt that we owed Scotland's voluntary sector. During the long years when we had a Government imposed on us for which we had not voted, the voluntary sector was a light in the darkness, pointing the way to a Scottish legislature that would do things differently. Now that we have our Parliament, there are those who say that the way in which we proceed in the future will be determined by two major fault lines: unionism versus nationalism and left versus right versus the third way. However, there is another fault line that is of great importance to the voluntary sector and the sort of society that we are going to build. It is the fine line between Government and governance; how this Parliament and the Executive tap into the expertise of civic Scotland and how our voluntary organisations can contribute—in the words of the compact— \"their experience and ideas to the development and implementation of public policy\". At the Scottish general election, all parties supported the principle of social partnership. Now we are moving from principle to practice to small print. There may be ministers and ministers-inwaiting who are anxious to imprint the firm stamp of personal authority on decisions, but who are not too enthusiastic about an extended series of consultation procedures or having to listen to disparate voices. Civil servants are also distinctly underwhelmed by the prospect of other bodies having a role in briefing and informing those who are involved in Scottish decision making. None the less, partnership and participation remain basic building blocks of this Parliament. The CSG took the absolutely clear view that the Executive and the Parliament are no longer to be the sole source of policy development and formulation. Particularly in the wicked bits of governance that fall between departmental divisions, the real experts who have hands-on experience are probably to be found among Scotland's 900,000 volunteers and their 60,000 professional staff. As an MSP/CSG, I have been banging on doors about that for quite a long time. Henry is all in favour of it, but has moved on. Jim is totally committed, but has a lot on his plate. Jackie has responsibility for the voluntary sector and is doing a remarkably good job, but she is not a minister but a deputy. Wendy, who can speak the language of social inclusion, governance and marginalisation rather better than most of us, has got in her pre-emptive hit and headlines, quite rightly, on citizens juries and panels. I warmly congratulate her on that, and wish her well. However, the buck stops with Jack—who is not here, and who must now be wondering how he is going to maximise the message. A couple of weekends ago, at the Stirling assembly, Canon Kenyon Wright gave Jack an ultimatum: Jack, he said, must initiate the civic forum by St Andrew's day. Or what? Esther Roberton and I argued that, more important than doing things now, we should do things right. I hope that the ministers will agree that this is an area in which process—the multiple entry points to decision making for civic Scotland—is probably more important than structure. None the less, Canon Wright was echoing widespread concerns. I would be grateful, therefore, if the minister, in summing up, would address a few basic questions. Can the minister give a firm assurance that the civic forum is coming soon? Can she confirm that it will be adequately funded over three years? Does she agree that the forum should be a gateway to our voluntary organisations, not a gatekeeper that boxes them in? Will she comment on the advice given to Parliament about the Lord Advocate and the Solicitor General being able to speak and participate in the Parliament but not vote, and will she address my concern that such arrangements exclude representatives of the voluntary sector from acting as advisers or sitting on committees? In the spirit of constructive engagement, which I hope will be the hallmark of the SNP in this Parliament, I agree that the Executive has made a good and constructive start in setting out the principles of its engagement with the voluntary sector. To date, however, the arrangements seem a little fragmented, with the details being unveiled according to the commitment and agenda of individual ministers. However, when Wendy winds up, we may get the big picture.", "EditedTextHTML": "On days such as this, I feel that I am in the chamber not only as George Reid, SNP, but as George Reid, CSG. When the consultative steering group put together the building blocks for this Parliament, we acknowledged with gratitude the debt that we owed Scotland's voluntary sector. During the long years when we had a Government

imposed on us for which we had not voted, the voluntary sector was a light in the darkness, pointing the way to a Scottish legislature that would do things differently.

Now that we have our Parliament, there are those who say that the way in which we proceed in the future will be determined by two major fault lines: unionism versus nationalism and left versus right versus the third way. However, there is another fault line that is of great importance to the voluntary sector and the sort of society that we are going to build. It is the fine line between Government and governance; how this Parliament and the Executive tap into the expertise of civic Scotland and how our voluntary organisations can contribute—in the words of the compact—

\"their experience and ideas to the development and implementation of public policy\".

At the Scottish general election, all parties supported the principle of social partnership. Now we are moving from principle to practice to small print. There may be ministers and ministers-inwaiting who are anxious to imprint the firm stamp of personal authority on decisions, but who are not too enthusiastic about an extended series of consultation procedures or having to listen to disparate voices. Civil servants are also distinctly underwhelmed by the prospect of other bodies having a role in briefing and informing those who are involved in Scottish decision making.

None the less, partnership and participation remain basic building blocks of this Parliament. The CSG took the absolutely clear view that the Executive and the Parliament are no longer to be the sole source of policy development and formulation. Particularly in the wicked bits of governance that fall between departmental divisions, the real experts who have hands-on experience are probably to be found among Scotland's 900,000 volunteers and their 60,000 professional staff.

As an MSP/CSG, I have been banging on doors about that for quite a long time. Henry is all in favour of it, but has moved on. Jim is totally committed, but has a lot on his plate. Jackie has responsibility for the voluntary sector and is doing a remarkably good job, but she is not a minister but a deputy. Wendy, who can speak the language of social inclusion, governance and marginalisation rather better than most of us, has got in her pre-emptive hit and headlines, quite rightly, on citizens juries and panels. I warmly congratulate her on that, and wish her well. However, the buck stops with Jack—who is not here, and who must now be wondering how he is going to maximise the message.

A couple of weekends ago, at the Stirling assembly, Canon Kenyon Wright gave Jack an ultimatum: Jack, he said, must initiate the civic forum by St Andrew's day. Or what? Esther Roberton and I argued that, more important than doing things now, we should do things right. I hope that the ministers will agree that this is an area in which process—the multiple entry points to decision making for civic Scotland—is probably more important than structure. None the less, Canon Wright was echoing widespread concerns. I would be grateful, therefore, if the minister, in summing up, would address a few basic questions.

Can the minister give a firm assurance that the civic forum is coming soon? Can she confirm that it will be adequately funded over three years? Does she agree that the forum should be a gateway to our voluntary organisations, not a gatekeeper that boxes them in? Will she comment on the advice given to Parliament about the Lord Advocate and the Solicitor General being able to speak and participate in the Parliament but not vote, and will she address my concern that such arrangements exclude representatives of the voluntary sector from acting as advisers or sitting on committees?

In the spirit of constructive engagement, which I hope will be the hallmark of the SNP in this Parliament, I agree that the Executive has made a good and constructive start in setting out the principles of its engagement with the voluntary sector. To date, however, the arrangements seem a little fragmented, with the details being unveiled according to the commitment and agenda of individual ministers. However, when Wendy winds up, we may get the big picture.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4983548+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2029E47P167C708527", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26870, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 561.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 561.0, "ID": 26870, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Henry, Hugh", "ID": 2029, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Hugh Henry", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Hugh Henry: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 664.0, "ContributionID": 708527, "EditedText": "That question would be more appropriately addressed to the Executive. I cannot speak on behalf of the Executive. I was making the point that the issue of accountability must be seen in a positive light. Accountability will strengthen the role of the voluntary sector and enable it to perform its duties with greater security. I have a warning for those colleagues who raised issues to do with the funding of certain organisations. We talk about involving the voluntary sector and the social economy in policy making. By all means let us examine how we can do that, but we must remember that we cannot say that this Parliament should not interfere with the rights of local authorities while telling those local authorities how they should engage with voluntary organisations in their areas. Rather than be entirely prescriptive, we should be involved in providing a strategic framework within which local authorities can operate. Similarly, we cannot come to this Parliament with tales of problems in individual organisations that are funded by local authorities and at the same time say that this Parliament should not interfere with the rights of local authorities—we cannot have it both ways. I have had experience of a range of excellent organisations in my area, such as Renfrewshire Association for Mental Health, One Plus, Unity Enterprise Ltd and various housing associations. Cathy Jamieson is right to raise the issue of Scottish Criminal Record Office checks and vetting. We cannot expect people to perform checks and then ask them to fund those checks. We must do something about that. I want to know whether the Scottish Executive, through the Minister for Finance, will consider some of the difficulties associated with European funding. We will threaten many organisations if we do not sort that out. Finally, will the minister consider the gaps in funding that may arise between current programmes and subsequent programmes? If we do not deal with that problem, many voluntary organisations will go to the wall.", "EditedTextHTML": "That question would be more appropriately addressed to the Executive. I cannot speak on behalf of the Executive.

I was making the point that the issue of accountability must be seen in a positive light. Accountability will strengthen the role of the voluntary sector and enable it to perform its duties with greater security.

I have a warning for those colleagues who raised issues to do with the funding of certain organisations. We talk about involving the voluntary sector and the social economy in policy making. By all means let us examine how we can do that, but we must remember that we cannot say that this Parliament should not interfere with the rights of local authorities while telling those local authorities how they should engage with voluntary organisations in their areas. Rather than be entirely prescriptive, we should be involved in providing a strategic framework within which local authorities can operate. Similarly, we cannot come to this Parliament with tales of problems in individual organisations that are funded by local authorities and at the same time say that this Parliament should not interfere with the rights of local authorities—we cannot have it both ways.

I have had experience of a range of excellent organisations in my area, such as Renfrewshire Association for Mental Health, One Plus, Unity Enterprise Ltd and various housing associations. Cathy Jamieson is right to raise the issue of Scottish Criminal Record Office checks and vetting. We cannot expect people to perform checks and then ask them to fund those checks. We must do something about that.

I want to know whether the Scottish Executive, through the Minister for Finance, will consider some of the difficulties associated with European funding. We will threaten many organisations if we do not sort that out. Finally, will the minister consider the gaps in funding that may arise between current programmes and subsequent programmes? If we do not deal with that problem, many voluntary organisations will go to the wall.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4983548+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1865E219P509C708528", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26870, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 561.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 561.0, "ID": 26870, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "White, Sandra", "ID": 1865, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sandra White", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Sandra White (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 667.0, "ContributionID": 708528, "EditedText": "I realise that time is short, so I will be concise. I welcome the fact that the Executive recognises the important role that the voluntary sector plays in Scotland. Thousands of people give their time year after year. Groups would cease to exist without them. I applaud every one of them. Most people have raised the issue of funding but I will concentrate on the part of the minister's speech in which she stated the Executive's commitment to create a stable—I stress that word—infrastructure. Hugh, like myself, was a councillor in a previous life. He mentioned various groups, but I will not talk about individual groups, as I would be here all day. Some of them were excellent and, unfortunately—Hugh would probably back me up—some of them were not. As a councillor, I dealt daily with voluntary groups. One thing that they had in common was a lack of stable funding. The organisations receive some grants from the lottery and local councils but those are, at best, sporadic. Some groups survive month to month, dependent on public donations. I recognise what Jackie said and believe that she will try to make progress, but if we are serious about the voluntary sector's role, we must ensure that the Parliament and local councils provide the infrastructure for dialogue, as Hugh said. As well as dialogue, those groups need training and funding to enable them to flourish. As George said, they have great expertise in areas in which the Parliament and local councils do not have it. We should be tapping into those voluntary groups and using their expertise. We should encourage an exchange of knowledge. We should not exclude them. I accept what Jackie said and, when I see the finished product, I am sure that I will be proven right in my belief that she means what she says. I am not saying that we, or local councils, should take over the running of those organisations, as was implied in some speeches. The minister has reiterated that that is not what the compact states. We must co-operate more closely with voluntary groups, to the benefit of both sides. The independent nature of those groups means that they would not want to be tied to officialdom. By creating meaningful dialogue and co-operation among the authorities and in the communities that the voluntary organisations serve, the voluntary organisations will play their part in the regeneration of our communities. Those organisations work on the ground and see what is needed. Voluntary organisations can push forward an agenda that will ensure fairness for all.", "EditedTextHTML": "I realise that time is short, so I will be concise. I welcome the fact that the Executive recognises the important role that the voluntary sector plays in Scotland. Thousands of people give their time year after year. Groups would cease to exist without them. I applaud every one of them.

Most people have raised the issue of funding but I will concentrate on the part of the minister's speech in which she stated the Executive's commitment to create a stable—I stress that word—infrastructure. Hugh, like myself, was a councillor in a previous life. He mentioned various groups, but I will not talk about individual groups, as I would be here all day. Some of them were excellent and, unfortunately—Hugh would probably back me up—some of them were not.

As a councillor, I dealt daily with voluntary groups. One thing that they had in common was a lack of stable funding. The organisations receive some grants from the lottery and local councils but those are, at best, sporadic. Some groups survive

month to month, dependent on public donations. I recognise what Jackie said and believe that she will try to make progress, but if we are serious about the voluntary sector's role, we must ensure that the Parliament and local councils provide the infrastructure for dialogue, as Hugh said.

As well as dialogue, those groups need training and funding to enable them to flourish. As George said, they have great expertise in areas in which the Parliament and local councils do not have it. We should be tapping into those voluntary groups and using their expertise. We should encourage an exchange of knowledge. We should not exclude them.

I accept what Jackie said and, when I see the finished product, I am sure that I will be proven right in my belief that she means what she says. I am not saying that we, or local councils, should take over the running of those organisations, as was implied in some speeches. The minister has reiterated that that is not what the compact states. We must co-operate more closely with voluntary groups, to the benefit of both sides. The independent nature of those groups means that they would not want to be tied to officialdom.

By creating meaningful dialogue and co-operation among the authorities and in the communities that the voluntary organisations serve, the voluntary organisations will play their part in the regeneration of our communities. Those organisations work on the ground and see what is needed. Voluntary organisations can push forward an agenda that will ensure fairness for all.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4983548+00:00" }, { "ID": "C708551", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26871, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 694.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 694.0, "ID": 26871, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 713.0, "ContributionID": 708551, "EditedText": "That the Parliament welcomes the Scottish Executive's recognition of the important role of the voluntary sector in Scottish society through the contribution it makes to economic prosperity, promoting social inclusion and encouraging active citizenship; endorses the Executive's commitment to create a stable infrastructure in which the voluntary sector can flourish, and welcomes the firm intention to work in partnership with the sector in delivering the Programme for Government.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament welcomes the Scottish Executive's recognition of the important role of the voluntary sector in Scottish society through the contribution it makes to economic prosperity, promoting social inclusion and encouraging active citizenship; endorses the Executive's commitment to create a stable infrastructure in which the voluntary sector can flourish, and welcomes the firm intention to work in partnership with the sector in delivering the Programme for Government.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4983548+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2234E7P20C708531", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26870, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 561.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 561.0, "ID": 26870, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Aitken, Bill", "ID": 2234, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bill Aitken", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bill Aitken: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 674.0, "ContributionID": 708531, "EditedText": "As Mr McAveety says, there is not enough money for that. Clearly, this has been a positive debate. However, there is much that could have been said about the voluntary sector that has not come out here, because its role is so wide, so deep and so interwoven into the fabric of Scottish society. This is an issue to which we will return in the months and years ahead. Today has been a positive start. As has been indicated, we will not be dividing on this motion. The volume and the quality of the contributions from this chamber are indicative of the fact that the Scottish Parliament is keen to recognise the tremendous achievement of the voluntary sector.", "EditedTextHTML": "As Mr McAveety says, there is not enough money for that.

Clearly, this has been a positive debate. However, there is much that could have been said about the voluntary sector that has not come out here, because its role is so wide, so deep and so interwoven into the fabric of Scottish society. This is an issue to which we will return in the months and years ahead. Today has been a positive start. As has been indicated, we will not be dividing on this motion. The volume and the quality of the contributions from this chamber are indicative of the fact that the Scottish Parliament is keen to recognise the tremendous achievement of the voluntary sector.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4983548+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C708534", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26870, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 561.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 561.0, "ID": 26870, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Richard Simpson (Ochil) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 681.0, "ContributionID": 708534, "EditedText": "Will Fiona Hyslop agree that the problem is not just the financial burden—which the Guide Association reckons at £40,000—but the administrative burden?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Fiona Hyslop agree that the problem is not just the financial burden—which the Guide Association reckons at £40,000—but the administrative burden?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4983548+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C708536", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26870, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 561.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 561.0, "ID": 26870, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Communities (Ms Wendy Alexander): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 686.0, "ContributionID": 708536, "EditedText": "This debate has done credit to the Parliament; I am reminded of the debate on violence against women, where the same expertise was shown by members on all sides of the chamber. It is also similar in one other respect—that the press gallery is entirely empty. As Fiona said, this debate is not just about good intentions. It is about redefining the relationship between the third sector and Government in Scotland. Today is an opportunity not just for recognising the scale of the voluntary effort in Scotland, but for showing our determination, as the first Scottish Parliament in 300 years, to create the conditions in which that sector can flourish. As George Reid said, it is our opportunity to repay a debt of gratitude to people who for many years were a light in the darkness, arguing the case for our existence. For the Executive and, I believe, for many other people who have spoken in the chamber today, the big idea is that, in future, Scotland's voluntary sector will be not just the key to delivering services, but fundamental to the development of policy. Like Fiona, I want the third sector to have the status in Scotland that the Scottish Trades Union Congress or the Confederation of British Industry has as leading social partners in the new Scotland. I will deal with the three issues that have come up in the debate: finance; general support for the sector; and why the third sector matters. Starting with finance, no one can dismiss the sort of pain resulting from annual funding that we have heard about today. The creation of the voluntary issues unit at the heart of the Executive as a champion for the sector means that the mistakes of the past will not be repeated. Commitments have been given today: three-year core funding as the norm; commitment to funding core costs; discussing with local government its relationship to the sector; and the need for single applications so that Cathy Jamieson's successors do not have to fill in 32 forms before they have core funding. We also need to talk about new exit strategies, which involves mainstreaming provision. What is exciting is that it is possible to build a political commitment in Scotland that says that the partnership with the third sector is real. We are seeing it happen in areas such as child care; it can begin to happen in a number of other areas. On charity law in Scotland, we will give proper consideration to the work that is being undertaken at Dundee. On Scottish Criminal Record Office checks, everybody knows—post-Dunblane—that it was necessary to look at how we protect vulnerable groups. We are keeping the issue of charges actively under review.", "EditedTextHTML": "This debate has done credit to the Parliament; I am reminded of the debate on violence against women, where the same expertise was shown by members on all sides of the chamber. It is also similar in one other respect—that the press gallery is entirely empty.

As Fiona said, this debate is not just about good intentions. It is about redefining the relationship between the third sector and Government in Scotland. Today is an opportunity not just for recognising the scale of the voluntary effort in Scotland, but for showing our determination, as the first Scottish Parliament in 300 years, to create the conditions in which that sector can flourish. As George Reid said, it is our opportunity to repay a debt of gratitude to people who for many years were a light in the darkness, arguing the case for our existence.

For the Executive and, I believe, for many other people who have spoken in the chamber today, the big idea is that, in future, Scotland's voluntary sector will be not just the key to delivering services, but fundamental to the development of policy. Like Fiona, I want the third sector to have the status in Scotland that the Scottish Trades Union Congress or the Confederation of British Industry has as leading social partners in the new Scotland.

I will deal with the three issues that have come up in the debate: finance; general support for the sector; and why the third sector matters.

Starting with finance, no one can dismiss the sort of pain resulting from annual funding that we have heard about today. The creation of the voluntary issues unit at the heart of the Executive as a champion for the sector means that the mistakes of the past will not be repeated. Commitments have been given today: three-year core funding as the norm; commitment to funding core costs; discussing with local government its relationship to the sector; and the need for single applications so that Cathy Jamieson's successors do not have to fill in 32 forms before they have core funding.

We also need to talk about new exit strategies, which involves mainstreaming provision. What is exciting is that it is possible to build a political commitment in Scotland that says that the partnership with the third sector is real. We are seeing it happen in areas such as child care; it can begin to happen in a number of other areas.

On charity law in Scotland, we will give proper consideration to the work that is being undertaken at Dundee. On Scottish Criminal Record Office checks, everybody knows—post-Dunblane—that it was necessary to look at how we protect vulnerable groups. We are keeping the issue of charges actively under review.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4983548+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708546", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26871, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 694.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 694.0, "ID": 26871, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 706.0, "ContributionID": 708546, "EditedText": "The second question is, that motion S1M-163, in the name of Angus MacKay, on crime prevention, be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "The second question is, that motion S1M-163, in the name of Angus MacKay, on crime prevention, be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4983548+00:00" }, { "ID": "C708547", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26871, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 694.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 694.0, "ID": 26871, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 708.0, "ContributionID": 708547, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4983548+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C708232", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Angus MacKay: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 19.0, "ContributionID": 708232, "EditedText": "I am not aware of the figures for cannabis abuse, or of the way in which it links with other forms of drug abuse. However, I am aware that all the advice from law enforcement agencies is that fewer drug users use a single drug and more drug users use alcohol, cannabis and harder drugs, such as heroin, in a cocktail. That produces a lethal mixture of dependency and overdose. We must be sophisticated in the way in which we consider the pattern of drug abuse—the issues are not separate in the way that Mr Sheridan describes.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am not aware of the figures for cannabis abuse, or of the way in which it links with other forms of drug abuse. However, I am aware that all the advice from law enforcement agencies is that fewer drug users use a single drug and more drug users use alcohol, cannabis and harder drugs, such as heroin, in a cocktail. That produces a lethal mixture of dependency and overdose. We must be sophisticated in the way in which we consider the pattern of drug abuse—the issues are not separate in the way that Mr Sheridan describes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C708233", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 21.0, "ContributionID": 708233, "EditedText": "Does the minister agree that the lesson from places such as Amsterdam, where cannabis has been legalised and is sold in cafes, is that wherever cannabis is sold, other hard drugs are beneath the counter? Does he agree that the use of cannabis almost inevitably leads to the use of other drugs?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the minister agree that the lesson from places such as Amsterdam, where cannabis has been legalised and is sold in cafes, is that wherever cannabis is sold, other hard drugs are beneath the counter? Does he agree that the use of cannabis almost inevitably leads to the use of other drugs?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C708228", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Justice (Angus MacKay): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 11.0, "ContributionID": 708228, "EditedText": "At least allegations of criminality are marginally relevant to the debate. I am pleased that we have the opportunity today to debate a topic that is one of the top priorities of the Scottish Executive. Reducing crime and anti-social behaviour and increasing community safety are matters that will prove to be as important for the new Parliament as they were for successive Administrations in Scotland, in particular for the Scottish Office under the Labour Government from 1997. Members of the Scottish Parliament are fortunate to be able to look back on a substantial legacy of achievement on which to build a safer Scotland. The debate provides us with an ideal opportunity not only to reflect on what has been achieved, but to look ahead at what we aim to do to make our communities safer. The Scottish Executive has inherited an approach from Labour in the Scottish Office that is every bit as relevant to the aims of the Parliament. No apologies need be made for picking up that standard. The phrase \"tough on crime and tough on the causes of crime\" is a real commitment not only to deal effectively and swiftly with offenders, but to tackle the root causes that lead to criminality in the first place. We take the twofold nature of that commitment very seriously. Being tough on crime is only half the battle. Crime has been dropping steadily for a number of years. However, last year, for the first time since 1991, there was an upturn of 3 per cent in recorded crime figures. Although that increase can be attributed mainly to a rise in crimes of dishonesty, such as housebreaking and theft, there is no doubt about the long-term trends in issues such as violence, sex crimes and drugs. The Executive is taking a more focused and rigorous approach to those key areas. We have moved swiftly to implement the new measures in the Crime and Disorder Act 1998, creating orders on anti-social behaviour, sex offenders, drug treatment and testing and a new offence of racial harassment. Recent indications from the police suggest that higher crime figures have been recorded for the first half of 1999. That is a clear warning to us all against complacency. We are providing the police with the resources to tackle the crimes that cause the public the most distress. We also must maintain our investment in anti-crime measures. On a more positive note, police clear-up rates continued to improve last year—that has been the trend throughout the 1990s. Our substantial investment in the installation of closed-circuit television systems throughout Scotland has undoubtedly made a significant contribution to those figures. It is worth reflecting on the programme that has been in place for some time. That programme has three main themes. First, we intend to tackle the underlying causes of crime—social, educational, and economic. Secondly, we aim to prevent offending, not only through crime prevention as it is traditionally understood, but by enabling early intervention in situations that may lead to offending. Finally, we want to deal with offenders in ways that reduce the risk of reoffending. It is important that we develop practical and sustainable policies rather than attempt halfhearted, quick-fix solutions. There is no doubt that deep-rooted divisions still exist within Scotland. The debilitating fear and distress caused by crime eats away at our ideals of community and society. We are, however, committed to a just society, in which every individual is valued. That same individual must hold personal responsibility to society and must be held responsible for their actions. Crime is not an abstract notion; it cannot be considered in isolation from its causes, many of which are rooted in underlying social problems. Deprivation and disadvantage are daily facts of life for too many people in Scotland. Crime and poverty are inextricably linked. It is estimated that, in Scotland, two out of every five babies are born into poverty. At this point it is worth pausing to congratulate my colleague the Minister for Health and Community Care on her recent announcement that, working alongside the UK Government, the Scottish Executive is committed to lifting 60,000 children out of poverty by the year 2002. Educational achievement, on average, is much lower among low-income families. Substantial evidence shows that poor education and poor health are contributory factors to delinquency. Those are key areas on which the Scottish Executive is focusing. We already have a range of policies and initiatives in place—such as the new deal, new community schools and social inclusion partnerships—to combat the social deprivation and isolating social exclusion that so often leads to crime. In respect of community safety, the Scottish Executive has a duty to provide the means for people in Scotland to feel safe. The coalition takes that duty very seriously. We are determined to fulfil the commitment to ensure that Scottish people feel safe and secure in their homes, as well as in the surrounding locality and communities in which they work. I would like to outline what we have done so far to improve and advance community safety. We have an excellent relationship with local government, whose support is fundamental to delivering the Scottish Executive's priorities in a number of areas that affect our local communities. We have a joint strategy for action—the safer communities through partnerships programme, which was launched in June 1998 in partnership with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities and the Association of Chief Police Officers. The strategy encourages local authorities and the police to lead local partnerships—involving public, private and voluntary bodies—to tackle the community issues that are of the greatest concern to local people. That concept has been adopted by most local authorities in Scotland. As the motion recognises, only through the forging of such strong partnerships will we see the fulfilment of our broader agenda to reduce crime, to reduce the fear of crime and, not least, to improve the quality of life in communities throughout Scotland. We are determined that those partnerships will work and we are helping them in a number of ways. In February, the Scottish Office published \"A Safer Scotland: Tackling Crime and its Causes\", which describes the Government's strategy for tackling crime and its causes and identifies the way forward for building public confidence and safer communities. The justice system must be fair to all those who are involved in its process. The public must have confidence that the system convicts the guilty and acquits the innocent. People need to be confident that, if they are witnesses or victims, the system will deal with them with consideration. Using best practice gained from established partnerships, we recently published guidance entitled \"Safer Communities in Scotland\", which provides a framework that partnerships are encouraged to apply to all aspects of community safety. A number of recent reports have identified a need for joint training between police officers and local authority policy officers, not only to gain an understanding of organisational and cultural differences, but to develop practical processes for the development of joint policies and strategies. Bearing that in mind, we are in the early stages of creating a joint training programme in conjunction with the Scottish Police College at Tulliallan to satisfy that need. As part of the on-going process of developing and implementing our community safety policies, I am hosting a conference on 2 November to drive home the need for partnerships to be results focused. I also want to reinforce the Government's desire for tangible improvements in community safety. The Scottish Executive is determined to develop and forge new approaches. We must support our communities by responding to their local concerns and ensure that public services can respond through the integration and effective co-ordination of community safety strategies and action plans for proper crime prevention. The concept of working partnerships between local people, agencies and organisations is crucial to the success of the new communities that care initiative. Partnerships under the umbrella of that initiative are being established in Edinburgh, Glasgow and Dundee with funding from the Scottish Executive crime prevention unit. The social exclusion programme is funding a fourth project in South Lanarkshire. Those locally managed and locally accountable programmes focus on improved community safety; they are grounded in careful risk assessment and management. Their aim is to achieve sustainable reductions in youth crime, school failure and drug abuse. It is not our intention merely to pay lip service to the community safety partnerships—we are backing up our commitment with hard cash. I was recently able to announce details of a new challenge competition that aims to make our communities safer. A sum of £3 million is being made available in the financial year 2000-01 to support communities in Scotland that want to establish new and innovative projects to contribute to that community's well-being and safety through crime reduction measures. Of that money, £1.5 million will be available to fund initiatives that fall into the broad category of community safety and the remaining £1.5 million will be specifically to fund CCTV. The community safety part of the competition will provide an added dimension to our efforts to make Scotland safer. Although CCTV has had some limited criticism, I am convinced—and I believe that the statistics support this—that the camera systems have made a significant contribution to cutting crime throughout Scotland. We are taking action against drug misuse, which is one of the biggest threats to community safety. Members may or may not be aware that, today, the 108th drug-related death in Strathclyde this year was reported. The damage that drug misuse and dependency does to our community is very visible. We see it in the intimidation and violence that is spawned by drug dealers peddling their trade on our streets. We see it in the threat to our homes and businesses from those who steal to feed their addictions. We see it in the health risks posed by discarded needles and in the direct and corrosive impact that drug misuse and dependency have on our young people. All those have appalling consequences for our communities. Let me repeat the clear message that the First Minister recently gave to drug dealers. If they are selling drugs, we will direct all our law enforcement agency resources to catch them. If we catch them, we will prosecute them. If they are convicted, we will send them to jail for a long time. While they are in jail, we will do everything in our power to seize the proceeds of their destructive activities. The First Minister added that drug dealers had been corroding our communities and our people for too long, but that all Scotland was united in condemning their evil trade and wanting to work together to stop it. Tackling drug misuse is at the heart of the Scottish Executive's agenda; we are vigorously undertaking that commitment. We are taking a genuinely cross-departmental and cross-agency approach that cuts across all boundaries. A ministerial committee has been formed to oversee the implementation of drugs strategy. It will provide integrated policy and integrated policy delivery, focusing primarily on results. I chair the committee. It includes ministers involved in education, health, justice and the community, and it reports directly to the Scottish Cabinet. The \"Partnership for Scotland\" document sets out the Executive's programme for the next four years. It includes a clear commitment to implement measures to prevent drug abuse. Those measures will be harmonised with other action in our social inclusion agenda.", "EditedTextHTML": "At least allegations of criminality are marginally relevant to the debate.

I am pleased that we have the opportunity today to debate a topic that is one of the top priorities of the Scottish Executive. Reducing crime and anti-social behaviour and increasing community safety are matters that will prove to be as important for the new Parliament as they were for successive Administrations in Scotland, in particular for the Scottish Office under the Labour Government from 1997.

Members of the Scottish Parliament are fortunate to be able to look back on a substantial legacy of achievement on which to build a safer Scotland. The debate provides us with an ideal opportunity not only to reflect on what has been achieved, but to look ahead at what we aim to do to make our communities safer.

The Scottish Executive has inherited an approach from Labour in the Scottish Office that is every bit as relevant to the aims of the Parliament. No apologies need be made for picking up that standard. The phrase \"tough on crime and tough on the causes of crime\" is a real commitment not only to deal effectively and swiftly with offenders, but to tackle the root causes that lead to criminality in the first place. We take the twofold nature of that commitment very seriously. Being tough on crime is only half the battle.

Crime has been dropping steadily for a number of years. However, last year, for the first time since 1991, there was an upturn of 3 per cent in recorded crime figures. Although that increase can be attributed mainly to a rise in crimes of dishonesty, such as housebreaking and theft, there is no doubt about the long-term trends in issues such as violence, sex crimes and drugs. The Executive is taking a more focused and rigorous approach to those key areas. We have moved swiftly to implement the new measures in the Crime and Disorder Act 1998, creating orders on anti-social behaviour, sex offenders, drug treatment and testing and a new offence of racial harassment.

Recent indications from the police suggest that higher crime figures have been recorded for the first half of 1999. That is a clear warning to us all against complacency. We are providing the police with the resources to tackle the crimes that cause the public the most distress. We also must maintain our investment in anti-crime measures.

On a more positive note, police clear-up rates continued to improve last year—that has been the trend throughout the 1990s. Our substantial investment in the installation of closed-circuit television systems throughout Scotland has undoubtedly made a significant contribution to those figures.

It is worth reflecting on the programme that has been in place for some time. That programme has three main themes. First, we intend to tackle the underlying causes of crime—social, educational, and economic. Secondly, we aim to prevent offending, not only through crime prevention as it is traditionally understood, but by enabling early intervention in situations that may lead to offending. Finally, we want to deal with offenders in ways that reduce the risk of reoffending. It is important that we develop practical and sustainable policies rather than attempt halfhearted, quick-fix solutions.

There is no doubt that deep-rooted divisions still exist within Scotland. The debilitating fear and distress caused by crime eats away at our ideals of community and society. We are, however, committed to a just society, in which every individual is valued. That same individual must hold personal responsibility to society and must be held responsible for their actions.

Crime is not an abstract notion; it cannot be considered in isolation from its causes, many of which are rooted in underlying social problems. Deprivation and disadvantage are daily facts of life for too many people in Scotland. Crime and poverty are inextricably linked. It is estimated that, in Scotland, two out of every five babies are born into poverty. At this point it is worth pausing to congratulate my colleague the Minister for Health and Community Care on her recent announcement that, working alongside the UK Government, the Scottish Executive is committed to lifting 60,000 children out of poverty by the year 2002.

Educational achievement, on average, is much lower among low-income families. Substantial evidence shows that poor education and poor health are contributory factors to delinquency. Those are key areas on which the Scottish Executive is focusing. We already have a range of policies and initiatives in place—such as the new deal, new community schools and social inclusion partnerships—to combat the social deprivation and isolating social exclusion that so often leads to crime.

In respect of community safety, the Scottish Executive has a duty to provide the means for people in Scotland to feel safe. The coalition takes that duty very seriously. We are determined to fulfil the commitment to ensure that Scottish people feel safe and secure in their homes, as well as in the surrounding locality and communities in which they work.

I would like to outline what we have done so far to improve and advance community safety. We have an excellent relationship with local government, whose support is fundamental to delivering the Scottish Executive's priorities in a number of areas that affect our local communities.

We have a joint strategy for action—the safer communities through partnerships programme, which was launched in June 1998 in partnership with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities and the Association of Chief Police Officers. The strategy encourages local authorities and the police to lead local partnerships—involving public, private and voluntary bodies—to tackle the community issues that are of the greatest concern to local people. That concept has been adopted by most local authorities in Scotland. As the motion recognises, only through the forging of such strong partnerships will we see the fulfilment of our broader agenda to reduce crime, to reduce the fear of crime and, not least, to improve the quality of life in communities throughout Scotland.

We are determined that those partnerships will work and we are helping them in a number of ways. In February, the Scottish Office published \"A Safer Scotland: Tackling Crime and its Causes\", which describes the Government's strategy for tackling crime and its causes and identifies the way forward for building public confidence and safer communities.

The justice system must be fair to all those who are involved in its process. The public must have confidence that the system convicts the guilty and acquits the innocent. People need to be confident that, if they are witnesses or victims, the system will deal with them with consideration. Using best practice gained from established partnerships, we recently published guidance entitled \"Safer Communities in Scotland\", which provides a framework that partnerships are encouraged to apply to all aspects of community safety.

A number of recent reports have identified a need for joint training between police officers and local authority policy officers, not only to gain an understanding of organisational and cultural differences, but to develop practical processes for the development of joint policies and strategies. Bearing that in mind, we are in the early stages of creating a joint training programme in conjunction with the Scottish Police College at Tulliallan to satisfy that need.

As part of the on-going process of developing and implementing our community safety policies, I am hosting a conference on 2 November to drive home the need for partnerships to be results focused. I also want to reinforce the Government's desire for tangible improvements in community safety.

The Scottish Executive is determined to develop and forge new approaches. We must support our communities by responding to their local concerns and ensure that public services can respond through the integration and effective co-ordination of community safety strategies and action plans for proper crime prevention.

The concept of working partnerships between local people, agencies and organisations is crucial to the success of the new communities that care initiative. Partnerships under the umbrella of that initiative are being established in Edinburgh, Glasgow and Dundee with funding from the Scottish Executive crime prevention unit. The social exclusion programme is funding a fourth project in South Lanarkshire. Those locally managed and locally accountable programmes focus on improved community safety; they are grounded in careful risk assessment and management. Their aim is to achieve sustainable reductions in youth crime, school failure and drug abuse.

It is not our intention merely to pay lip service to the community safety partnerships—we are backing up our commitment with hard cash. I was recently able to announce details of a new challenge competition that aims to make our communities safer. A sum of £3 million is being made available in the financial year 2000-01 to support communities in Scotland that want to establish new and innovative projects to contribute to that community's well-being and safety through crime reduction measures.

Of that money, £1.5 million will be available to fund initiatives that fall into the broad category of community safety and the remaining £1.5 million will be specifically to fund CCTV. The community safety part of the competition will provide an added dimension to our efforts to make Scotland safer. Although CCTV has had some limited

criticism, I am convinced—and I believe that the statistics support this—that the camera systems have made a significant contribution to cutting crime throughout Scotland.

We are taking action against drug misuse, which is one of the biggest threats to community safety. Members may or may not be aware that, today, the 108th drug-related death in Strathclyde this year was reported. The damage that drug misuse and dependency does to our community is very visible. We see it in the intimidation and violence that is spawned by drug dealers peddling their trade on our streets. We see it in the threat to our homes and businesses from those who steal to feed their addictions. We see it in the health risks posed by discarded needles and in the direct and corrosive impact that drug misuse and dependency have on our young people. All those have appalling consequences for our communities.

Let me repeat the clear message that the First Minister recently gave to drug dealers. If they are selling drugs, we will direct all our law enforcement agency resources to catch them. If we catch them, we will prosecute them. If they are convicted, we will send them to jail for a long time. While they are in jail, we will do everything in our power to seize the proceeds of their destructive activities. The First Minister added that drug dealers had been corroding our communities and our people for too long, but that all Scotland was united in condemning their evil trade and wanting to work together to stop it.

Tackling drug misuse is at the heart of the Scottish Executive's agenda; we are vigorously undertaking that commitment. We are taking a genuinely cross-departmental and cross-agency approach that cuts across all boundaries. A ministerial committee has been formed to oversee the implementation of drugs strategy. It will provide integrated policy and integrated policy delivery, focusing primarily on results. I chair the committee. It includes ministers involved in education, health, justice and the community, and it reports directly to the Scottish Cabinet.

The \"Partnership for Scotland\" document sets out the Executive's programme for the next four years. It includes a clear commitment to implement measures to prevent drug abuse. Those measures will be harmonised with other action in our social inclusion agenda.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C708234", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 23.0, "ContributionID": 708234, "EditedText": "Is that from personalexperience, Phil?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is that from personal

experience, Phil?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C708237", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Angus MacKay: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 29.0, "ContributionID": 708237, "EditedText": "Not at the moment, Mr Harper—perhaps a little later in the debate. Our strategy is set out in the document \"Tackling Drugs in Scotland: Action in Partnership\", which contains the agreed policy approach for the vast majority of agencies that are in partnership with the Scottish Executive. The strategy includes a wide-ranging programme in the form of national objectives and priorities for action. Protecting communities from drug-related anti-social and criminal behaviour is one of its four overarching aims. Treatment and rehabilitation, education, prevention and enforcement all have a complementary part to play. The police and other enforcement agencies do sterling and successful work at both national and force level in countering the increase in the volume of drug dealing and trafficking. We are keen to increase the momentum and that is why the \"Partnership for Scotland\" document includes a commitment to \"take tough action on drug dealers, establish a Scottish Drug Enforcement Agency and step up action to stop drugs coming into Scotland\". The Executive has made clear its commitment to provide increased resources to establish a Scottish drugs enforcement agency, which will build on the success of the Scottish crime squad and increase the size of drug squads at force level. Work on that agency is well under way, with the involvement of key enforcement agencies, but considerable planning remains to be done. However, within the next 100 days, I expect to be able to announce details about the structure of the drugs enforcement agency and, within 150 days, we will appoint a chief executive or director to head the agency. Very soon after that, the agency will become operational.", "EditedTextHTML": "Not at the moment, Mr Harper—perhaps a little later in the debate.

Our strategy is set out in the document \"Tackling Drugs in Scotland: Action in Partnership\", which contains the agreed policy approach for the vast majority of agencies that are in partnership with the Scottish Executive. The strategy includes a wide-ranging programme in the form of national objectives and priorities for action. Protecting communities from drug-related anti-social and criminal behaviour is one of its four overarching aims. Treatment and rehabilitation, education, prevention and enforcement all have a complementary part to play.

The police and other enforcement agencies do sterling and successful work at both national and force level in countering the increase in the volume of drug dealing and trafficking. We are keen to increase the momentum and that is why the \"Partnership for Scotland\" document includes a commitment to

\"take tough action on drug dealers, establish a Scottish Drug Enforcement Agency and step up action to stop drugs coming into Scotland\".

The Executive has made clear its commitment to provide increased resources to establish a Scottish drugs enforcement agency, which will build on the success of the Scottish crime squad and increase the size of drug squads at force level.

Work on that agency is well under way, with the involvement of key enforcement agencies, but considerable planning remains to be done. However, within the next 100 days, I expect to be able to announce details about the structure of the drugs enforcement agency and, within 150 days, we will appoint a chief executive or director to head the agency. Very soon after that, the agency will become operational.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C708238", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie (Lothians) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 31.0, "ContributionID": 708238, "EditedText": "Can the minister assure us that the establishment and manning of the agency, and the increasing number of officers on drugs duties in local forces, will not impact on the number of officers assigned to other non-drugs-related duties? In other words, are the increased resources that the minister mentioned truly additional and not simply a redeployment of existing force strength at a local or national level?", "EditedTextHTML": "Can the minister assure us that the establishment and manning of the agency, and the increasing number of officers on drugs duties in local forces, will not impact on the number of officers assigned to other non-drugs-related duties? In other words, are the increased resources that the minister mentioned truly additional and not simply a redeployment of existing force strength at a local or national level?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708240", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 35.0, "ContributionID": 708240, "EditedText": "Before I call Phil Gallie to speak to and move his amendment, I want to raise a point. Yesterday afternoon, I had to make it clear that members who speak in a debate are expected to remain in the chamber for the minister's wind-up speech. The same applies for the opening speech. Members have requested the floor who have not been here for the start of the debate, which means, frankly, that their chances of being called are diminished.", "EditedTextHTML": "Before I call Phil Gallie to speak to and move his amendment, I want to raise a point. Yesterday afternoon, I had to make it clear that members who speak in a debate are

expected to remain in the chamber for the minister's wind-up speech. The same applies for the opening speech. Members have requested the floor who have not been here for the start of the debate, which means, frankly, that their chances of being called are diminished.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C708241", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 38.0, "ContributionID": 708241, "EditedText": "In his opening remarks, the minister suggested that this issue was a top priority with the Scottish Executive. I am extremely disappointed that no other member of the Scottish Executive was in the chamber for the minister's speech. It is hard to disagree with the motion, because it means all things to all men and shows neither commitment to nor the means of dealing with crime on our streets or in our homes. I am sad to say that the minister's speech did not detract from that perception. The motion is wishy-washy and means little when it comes to addressing the real concerns of the general public. Our amendment adds teeth to the motion and seeks to ensure that the real problems of crime and crime prevention are dealt with in the chamber today. I respectfully suggest that the minister should accept our amendment, because surely it is in the interests of everyone in Scotland for the public to respect and have confidence in the law. How can the minister turn his back on such an amendment?", "EditedTextHTML": "In his opening remarks, the minister suggested that this issue was a top priority with the Scottish Executive. I am extremely disappointed that no other member of the Scottish Executive was in the chamber for the minister's speech.

It is hard to disagree with the motion, because it means all things to all men and shows neither commitment to nor the means of dealing with crime on our streets or in our homes. I am sad to say that the minister's speech did not detract from that perception.

The motion is wishy-washy and means little when it comes to addressing the real concerns of the general public. Our amendment adds teeth to the motion and seeks to ensure that the real problems of crime and crime prevention are dealt with in the chamber today.

I respectfully suggest that the minister should accept our amendment, because surely it is in the interests of everyone in Scotland for the public to respect and have confidence in the law. How can the minister turn his back on such an amendment?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C708249", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 54.0, "ContributionID": 708249, "EditedText": "Strathclyde is 350 officers short. If the minister will acknowledge that that is the case and tell us what he plans to do to rectify the situation, I am delighted to give way to him.", "EditedTextHTML": "Strathclyde is 350 officers short. If the minister will acknowledge that that is the case

and tell us what he plans to do to rectify the situation, I am delighted to give way to him.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C708256", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 68.0, "ContributionID": 708256, "EditedText": "Mr Gallie has condemned young people for their involvement in crime. Will he join me in condemning the crime against young people that was committed by the previous Government, when it removed benefit entitlement for 16 and 17-year-olds?", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Gallie has condemned young people for their involvement in crime. Will he join me in condemning the crime against young people that was committed by the previous Government, when it removed benefit entitlement for 16 and 17-year-olds?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C708259", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 74.0, "ContributionID": 708259, "EditedText": "I will give way in a moment.The children's panels are failing persistent young offenders who are determined to live a life of crime. We can take great pride in the bulk of our youth. They do not cause trouble, they want to get on with their lives in peace and harmony and they are the ones whom I want to protect. At the same time, the interests of those who are set on the path of crime must be addressed.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will give way in a moment.

The children's panels are failing persistent young offenders who are determined to live a life of crime. We can take great pride in the bulk of our youth. They do not cause trouble, they want to get on with their lives in peace and harmony and they are the ones whom I want to protect. At the same time, the interests of those who are set on the path of crime must be addressed.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C708268", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 92.0, "ContributionID": 708268, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C708269", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 94.0, "ContributionID": 708269, "EditedText": "The gentleman has just finished an intervention in which he referred to his visit to Saughton some years ago. That happened because he failed to pay his dues to society. If he had, there might have been more money in the public coffers to meet the cost of benefit payments for young people.", "EditedTextHTML": "The gentleman has just finished an intervention in which he referred to his visit to Saughton some years ago. That happened because he failed to pay his dues to society. If he had, there might have been more money in the public coffers to meet the cost of benefit payments for young people.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C708271", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 98.0, "ContributionID": 708271, "EditedText": "I am sorry if I got the original reason for Mr Sheridan being in prison wrong. My understanding was that it was for failure to pay poll tax, but if he paid up and everything was fine, I accept his comment. Drugs testing is certainly a factor in the shift towards heroin, and I am sure that the Justice and Home Affairs Committee will consider that issue. I trust that the Executive will do the same. I trust too, however, that Tommy Sheridan agrees that it is well worth carrying out drugs testing in prisons. Labour members on my left opposed such testing at one time in the not too distant past.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry if I got the original reason for Mr Sheridan being in prison wrong. My understanding was that it was for failure to pay poll tax, but if he paid up and everything was fine, I accept his comment.

Drugs testing is certainly a factor in the shift towards heroin, and I am sure that the Justice and Home Affairs Committee will consider that issue. I trust that the Executive will do the same. I trust too, however, that Tommy Sheridan agrees that it is well worth carrying out drugs testing in prisons. Labour members on my left opposed such testing at one time in the not too distant past.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C708275", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 106.0, "ContributionID": 708275, "EditedText": "I will, but I see that Roseanna Cunningham is shaking her head. Does she object to my hoping to convert Tommy Sheridan?", "EditedTextHTML": "I will, but I see that Roseanna Cunningham is shaking her head. Does she object to my hoping to convert Tommy Sheridan?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1863E284P532C708276", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Cunningham, Roseanna", "ID": 1863, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Perth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Roseanna Cunningham", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Roseanna Cunningham (Perth) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 108.0, "ContributionID": 708276, "EditedText": "No. I just want you to wind up.", "EditedTextHTML": "No. I just want you to wind up.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C708279", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 114.0, "ContributionID": 708279, "EditedText": "Mr Gallie, will you wind up, please, and refer your remarks through the chair?", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Gallie, will you wind up, please, and refer your remarks through the chair?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C708283", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 122.0, "ContributionID": 708283, "EditedText": "Mr Gallie, will you come to a close now?", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Gallie, will you come to a close now?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C708284", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 124.0, "ContributionID": 708284, "EditedText": "I look to many other aspects of Crown Office involvement, in crimes where the public are sold short. Again, I ask the minister to support the amendment and to put justice back on track. I move amendment S1M-163.1, to leave out from \"formation\" to end and insert: \"principal means of achieving this is to ensure public respect and confidence in the justice system.\"", "EditedTextHTML": "I look to many other aspects of Crown Office involvement, in crimes where the public are sold short.

Again, I ask the minister to support the amendment and to put justice back on track.

I move amendment S1M-163.1, to leave out from \"formation\" to end and insert:

\"principal means of achieving this is to ensure public respect and confidence in the justice system.\"

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C708290", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Angus MacKay: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 137.0, "ContributionID": 708290, "EditedText": "I am grateful for the opportunity to comment. The drug treatment and testing order regime that is being introduced in Glasgow directly addresses the issue raised by Mr Raffan. While we do not at present have drug courts in Scotland, there are a number of pilot projects, which will be reviewed, to test the effectiveness of diversion from the courts in terms of savings in court resources, freeing of court time and providing appropriate rehabilitative treatment for offenders to ensure that the vicious circle is broken.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful for the opportunity to comment. The drug treatment and testing order regime that is being introduced in Glasgow directly addresses the issue raised by Mr Raffan.

While we do not at present have drug courts in Scotland, there are a number of pilot projects, which will be reviewed, to test the effectiveness of diversion from the courts in terms of savings in court resources, freeing of court time and providing appropriate rehabilitative treatment for offenders to ensure that the vicious circle is broken.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C708297", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 154.0, "ContributionID": 708297, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C708301", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 162.0, "ContributionID": 708301, "EditedText": "I do not disagree with much of what Christine Grahame has said about the problems of youth and the way in which they must be treated. I majored on the persistent young offender who has accrued a track record of 87 offences, goes from 10 children's panels hearings—which have no effect—to the courts, and ends up in jail. We have not done him any favours, and we have not done society any favours.", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not disagree with much of what Christine Grahame has said about the problems of youth and the way in which they must be treated. I majored on the persistent young offender who has accrued a track record of 87 offences, goes from 10 children's panels hearings—which have no effect—to the courts, and ends up in jail. We have not done him any favours, and we have not done society any favours.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2123E103P242C708303", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Chisholm, Malcolm", "ID": 2123, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh North and Leith" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Malcolm Chisholm", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 167.0, "ContributionID": 708303, "EditedText": "I support the Executive motion with its emphasis on community, and I regret the way in which the Tory amendment has resorted to a one-club policy of concentrating on the criminal justice system. As Johann Lamont said, we are dealing with a complex matter, and addressing the criminal justice system is certainly one of many policies that must be carried out. I do not think that the Executive is failing. Angus MacKay emphasised the strong measures that are being taken against drug dealers, and I am sure that every member of this Parliament fully supports the Executive's efforts. The reality, however, is that, no matter how tough we are, we will not solve the drugs problem with just one policy. I am sure that the Executive recognises that. Education is important in addressing the problem of drugs. In talking about drugs, we should widen the definition to include, for example, alcohol. I was struck by a speech that the deputy chief constable of Lothian and Borders police made last week, in which he pointed out that alcohol is a factor in 60 to 70 per cent of homicides, 75 per cent of stabbings and 50 per cent of all crime. That problem is a great challenge for us. In addressing the education problem, we must look at evidence of what works. More generally, all crime policy must be based on evidence. Since 1997, the Labour Government has moved towards basing crime policy on evidence, and it should be congratulated on that achievement. The sort of practical measures to which Angus MacKay referred go some way to solving the problem. I welcome the £3 million that is being allocated to provide such practical measures as closed-circuit television. Again, people must look at the evidence, which suggests that, while CCTV may not be a panacea, it is effective. Other practical measures include better locks on houses and better street lighting. The jargon calls all that target hardening, and the evidence shows that those measures have a quantifiable effect on reducing crime. At the heart of the Executive motion is the prominence that is given to community safety partnerships. I welcome the one in Edinburgh and the local one in my constituency in the north of Edinburgh. It is important to involve local people in the solutions to problems. As Johann Lamont rightly said, it is local communities—and particularly the poorest people in those communities—that bear the brunt of crime. That is why we who represent those people are right to be tough on crime. We must not forget, however, the underlying relationship, emphasised by Angus MacKay, between crime and poverty. The whole development of social policy is crucially important in crime prevention. A simple measure such as providing more nursery education has been shown to have an effect on reducing crime. As a member of the Equal Opportunities Committee, I would like to throw in two other dimensions. The first is the issue of crime and race. Next week, we shall be questioning Jim Wallace about the Macpherson report. We must all be committed to taking action to prevent the appalling crimes of racial harassment and racial violence that scar our society. I think that the Executive's response to the Macpherson report has been important, although some of us think that it should go further in some regards. The other issue about which the Equal Opportunities Committee is concerned is the question of crime and gender. To put it simply, men are far more involved in crime than women are. There is also a problem of male violence against women, and I welcome the work that the Justice and Home Affairs Committee has done on that. I am sure that members will support developments that will enable all women to benefit from interdict orders so that they will have protection from harassment by violent partners. The Equal Opportunities Committee wants to examine the whole development of the strategy to combat violence against women. Quite rightly, people in this Parliament have emphasised the importance of services and the importance of better funding for Women's Aid and for rape crisis centres. I and many others will demand that that issue be addressed in this year's spending round. We realise that we must deal with the causes of the problem. We must also emphasise the importance of preventing crime. The work of Zero Tolerance, for example, is fundamentally important. Next Thursday, the organisation will be holding a meeting here in Parliament about Respect, a new campaign developed to challenge the common attitudes that many men have towards women. I hope that many members will attend the presentation and will support the campaign. As I said during the debate on domestic violence that Maureen Macmillan introduced, I hope that Zero Tolerance will be fully involved in the development of the Scottish Executive's strategy to tackle violence against women, because there have been some problems with that in the past. I hope we all recognise the central importance of preventing crime. That is why this morning's debate is so important. Of course we have to address problems in the criminal justice system, but we must also look at the underlying causes of crime and deal with them.", "EditedTextHTML": "I support the Executive motion with its emphasis on community, and I regret the way in which the Tory amendment has resorted to a one-club policy of concentrating on the criminal justice system. As Johann Lamont said, we are dealing with a complex matter, and addressing the criminal justice system is certainly one of many policies that must be carried out.

I do not think that the Executive is failing. Angus MacKay emphasised the strong measures that are being taken against drug dealers, and I am sure that every member of this Parliament fully supports the Executive's efforts. The reality, however, is that, no matter how tough we are, we will not solve the drugs problem with just one policy. I am sure that the Executive recognises that.

Education is important in addressing the problem of drugs. In talking about drugs, we should widen the definition to include, for example, alcohol. I was struck by a speech that the deputy chief constable of Lothian and Borders police made last week, in which he pointed out that alcohol is a factor in 60 to 70 per cent of homicides, 75 per cent of stabbings and 50 per cent of all crime. That problem is a great challenge for us.

In addressing the education problem, we must look at evidence of what works. More generally, all crime policy must be based on evidence. Since 1997, the Labour Government has moved towards basing crime policy on evidence, and it should be congratulated on that achievement.

The sort of practical measures to which Angus MacKay referred go some way to solving the problem. I welcome the £3 million that is being allocated to provide such practical measures as closed-circuit television. Again, people must look at the evidence, which suggests that, while CCTV may not be a panacea, it is effective. Other practical measures include better locks on houses and better street lighting. The jargon calls all that target hardening, and the evidence shows that those measures have a quantifiable effect on reducing crime.

At the heart of the Executive motion is the prominence that is given to community safety partnerships. I welcome the one in Edinburgh and the local one in my constituency in the north of Edinburgh. It is important to involve local people in the solutions to problems. As Johann Lamont rightly said, it is local communities—and particularly the poorest people in those communities—that bear the brunt of crime. That is why we who represent those people are right to be tough on crime.

We must not forget, however, the underlying relationship, emphasised by Angus MacKay, between crime and poverty. The whole development of social policy is crucially important in crime prevention. A simple measure such as providing more nursery education has been shown to have an effect on reducing crime.

As a member of the Equal Opportunities Committee, I would like to throw in two other dimensions. The first is the issue of crime and race. Next week, we shall be questioning Jim Wallace about the Macpherson report. We must all be committed to taking action to prevent the appalling crimes of racial harassment and racial violence that scar our society. I think that the Executive's response to the Macpherson report has been important, although some of us think that it should go further in some regards.

The other issue about which the Equal Opportunities Committee is concerned is the question of crime and gender. To put it simply, men are far more involved in crime than women are. There is also a problem of male violence against women, and I welcome the work that the Justice and Home Affairs Committee has done on that. I am sure that members will support developments that will enable all women to benefit

from interdict orders so that they will have protection from harassment by violent partners.

The Equal Opportunities Committee wants to examine the whole development of the strategy to combat violence against women. Quite rightly, people in this Parliament have emphasised the importance of services and the importance of better funding for Women's Aid and for rape crisis centres. I and many others will demand that that issue be addressed in this year's spending round.

We realise that we must deal with the causes of the problem. We must also emphasise the importance of preventing crime. The work of Zero Tolerance, for example, is fundamentally important. Next Thursday, the organisation will be holding a meeting here in Parliament about Respect, a new campaign developed to challenge the common attitudes that many men have towards women. I hope that many members will attend the presentation and will support the campaign.

As I said during the debate on domestic violence that Maureen Macmillan introduced, I hope that Zero Tolerance will be fully involved in the development of the Scottish Executive's strategy to tackle violence against women, because there have been some problems with that in the past. I hope we all recognise the central importance of preventing crime. That is why this morning's debate is so important. Of course we have to address problems in the criminal justice system, but we must also look at the underlying causes of crime and deal with them.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2099E29P51C708306", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Young, John", "ID": 2099, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Young", "SpeakerDisplayName": "John Young: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 174.0, "ContributionID": 708306, "EditedText": "Mr Jackson cannot say the statement is untrue either, because we both have a problem: I cannot prove it and he cannot disprove it. I challenge any lawyer here to say otherwise. We can suspect but we may not be able to prove, on either side. Nevertheless, there is a very good case for not having juries.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Jackson cannot say the statement is untrue either, because we both have a problem: I cannot prove it and he cannot disprove it. I challenge any lawyer here to say otherwise. We can suspect but we may not be able to prove, on either side. Nevertheless, there is a very good case for not having juries.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2099E29P51C708310", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Young, John", "ID": 2099, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Young", "SpeakerDisplayName": "John Young: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 182.0, "ContributionID": 708310, "EditedText": "The lights were going out. I am speaking for people on the streets who have said such things to me time and again. Will life ever mean that in a life sentence? It does on occasion, yet the law could be reported for breaching the Trade Descriptions Act 1968 because, more often than not, a life sentence comes with a recommendation of a limited number of years. Justice must be seen to be done: that is a hollowphrase today when we do not often see it being done. I cannot find the words retribution or punishment anywhere in \"Making it work together\"—only the word rehabilitation. I agree with rehabilitation where it is humanly possible, but there must be retribution and punishment. That means that drug dealers, particularly the big-time ones, should be left only with what they are standing up in in court, rather than the miserly £30,000 that was levied against one convicted drug dealer. Another problem is that, in the culture of certain communities, GBH is almost the equivalent of an OBE and a visit to the Barlinnie is like a visit to Buckingham Palace. Several years ago, a criminologist said on television that the middle- aged and elderly hark back to a golden age where there was virtually no crime. That is probably true of the harking back, but there has always been crime. That criminologist also said that there was more crime before 1880 than there is today. Most people feel, however, that there has been a change in society over the past 20 years. Drugs have played a large part in that. We now have what I call the third zero generation. I am not being critical—any one of us could have landed in the zero generation depending on where we were born and if we did not have the benefits of education and employment. Most members of the zero generation are not criminals, but some are. They have time on their hands, as Tommy Sheridan I think once said, and many have contempt for society in general. The police, the community and government have a part to play but so have the procurators fiscal and the courts, who suffocate themselves with paper. They are often a weak link. We should set up municipal courts, which again should be fast-track, to deal with certain motoring offences, littering, persistent truancy and the like. We should also think about something like the Peace Corps that could capture the imagination of youth.", "EditedTextHTML": "The lights were going out. I am speaking for people on the streets who have said such things to me time and again. Will life ever mean that in a life sentence? It does on occasion, yet the law could be reported for breaching the Trade Descriptions Act 1968 because, more often than not, a life sentence comes with a recommendation of a limited number of years.

Justice must be seen to be done: that is a hollow

phrase today when we do not often see it being done. I cannot find the words retribution or punishment anywhere in \"Making it work together\"—only the word rehabilitation. I agree with rehabilitation where it is humanly possible, but there must be retribution and punishment. That means that drug dealers, particularly the big-time ones, should be left only with what they are standing up in in court, rather than the miserly £30,000 that was levied against one convicted drug dealer.

Another problem is that, in the culture of certain communities, GBH is almost the equivalent of an OBE and a visit to the Barlinnie is like a visit to Buckingham Palace. Several years ago, a criminologist said on television that the middle- aged and elderly hark back to a golden age where there was virtually no crime. That is probably true of the harking back, but there has always been crime. That criminologist also said that there was more crime before 1880 than there is today. Most people feel, however, that there has been a change in society over the past 20 years. Drugs have played a large part in that.

We now have what I call the third zero generation. I am not being critical—any one of us could have landed in the zero generation depending on where we were born and if we did not have the benefits of education and employment. Most members of the zero generation are not criminals, but some are. They have time on their hands, as Tommy Sheridan I think once said, and many have contempt for society in general. The police, the community and government have a part to play but so have the procurators fiscal and the courts, who suffocate themselves with paper. They are often a weak link.

We should set up municipal courts, which again should be fast-track, to deal with certain motoring offences, littering, persistent truancy and the like. We should also think about something like the Peace Corps that could capture the imagination of youth.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C708311", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Angus MacKay: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 184.0, "ContributionID": 708311, "EditedText": "I hesitate to intervene as to do so will prolong the contribution—MEMBERS: \"Prolong the agony.\" To bring things back to the planet that the rest of us inhabit, will Mr Young explain why there is such a contrast between the current policy approach and that of the previous national Administration in its 18 years of government? Crime figures overall rose by 21 per cent between 1979 and 1997. Will the member also clarify his comments on stripping drug dealers of their assets? He said they should be left with nothing but the clothes they are standing in if they are convicted of a criminal offence. Does that mean that he is, on behalf of his party, ruling out the Irish model of civil forfeiture where an individual can be prosecuted under civil law without a conviction having taken place for a specific drugs offence?", "EditedTextHTML": "I hesitate to intervene as to do so will prolong the contribution—[MEMBERS: \"Prolong the agony.\"] To bring things back to the planet that the rest of us inhabit, will Mr Young explain why there is such a contrast between the current policy approach and that of the previous national Administration in its 18 years of government? Crime figures overall rose by 21 per cent between 1979 and 1997.

Will the member also clarify his comments on stripping drug dealers of their assets? He said they should be left with nothing but the clothes they are standing in if they are convicted of a criminal offence. Does that mean that he is, on behalf of his party, ruling out the Irish model of civil forfeiture where an individual can be prosecuted under civil law without a conviction having taken place for a specific drugs offence?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1805E13P109C708318", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Whitefield, Karen", "ID": 1805, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Airdrie and Shotts" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Karen Whitefield", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Karen Whitefield: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 199.0, "ContributionID": 708318, "EditedText": "This is an important debate. The Labour Administration, in partnership with the Liberal Democrats, will put the victim at the top of the agenda. Today, I am calling for action to support the victim. If Mr McGrigor listens to the rest of my speech, I hope that he will support what I am calling for. Victim Support is active in reducing the fear of crime in our communities. Too often, some of our most vulnerable citizens have a heightened fear of crime. The provision of accurate figures on crime levels in their areas can alleviate unnecessary fear. England already has a victims charter and I call on the Scottish Executive to establish a victims charter for Scotland. That would enhance the rights of victims by clarifying what information and support they could expect to receive. I also call on the Scottish Executive to expand the witness support services that were recently piloted in three areas. Other agencies, such as Rape Crisis and Scottish Women's Aid, also provide invaluable services and are illustrative of the important role that the voluntary sector can play in crime prevention and in dealing with the consequences of crime. Before I sum up, I will mention briefly the role of closed-circuit television in combating crime. As some members will be aware, Airdrie town centre hosted one of the two pilot studies that were established to examine the impact of CCTV. The evaluation proved that CCTV has an important role to play in tackling crime: 21 per cent fewer offences were recorded in the 24 months following installation; the police cleared up 16 per cent more crime during that period; and, contrary to the arguments of opponents of CCTV, there was no evidence that crimes were displaced to outlying areas. I do not believe that the police or the Scottish Executive or communities can alone tackle the problem of crime. A partnership is required, in which criminals are targeted, in which efforts that direct people away from crime are supported and developed, and in which increased employment and education opportunities complement enhanced police measures. Community and voluntary organisations throughout Scotland are struggling against crime and its effects. We must support them in that struggle—together, we can make a difference.", "EditedTextHTML": "This is an important debate. The Labour Administration, in partnership with the Liberal Democrats, will put the victim at the top of the agenda. Today, I am calling for action to support the victim. If Mr McGrigor listens to the rest of my speech, I hope that he will support what I am calling for.

Victim Support is active in reducing the fear of crime in our communities. Too often, some of our most vulnerable citizens have a heightened fear of crime. The provision of accurate figures on crime levels in their areas can alleviate unnecessary fear. England already has a victims charter and I call on the Scottish Executive to establish a victims charter for Scotland. That would enhance the rights of victims by clarifying what information and support they could expect to receive.

I also call on the Scottish Executive to expand the witness support services that were recently piloted in three areas. Other agencies, such as Rape Crisis and Scottish Women's Aid, also provide invaluable services and are illustrative of the important role that the voluntary sector can play in crime prevention and in dealing with the consequences of crime.

Before I sum up, I will mention briefly the role of closed-circuit television in combating crime. As some members will be aware, Airdrie town centre hosted one of the two pilot studies that were established to examine the impact of CCTV. The evaluation proved that CCTV has an important role to play in tackling crime: 21 per cent fewer offences were recorded in the 24 months following installation; the police cleared up 16 per cent more crime during that period; and, contrary to the arguments of opponents of CCTV, there was no evidence that crimes were displaced to outlying areas.

I do not believe that the police or the Scottish Executive or communities can alone tackle the problem of crime. A partnership is required, in which criminals are targeted, in which efforts that direct people away from crime are supported and developed, and in which increased employment and education opportunities complement enhanced police measures. Community and voluntary organisations throughout Scotland are

struggling against crime and its effects. We must support them in that struggle—together, we can make a difference.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C708320", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 204.0, "ContributionID": 708320, "EditedText": "I call Mr Raffan.", "EditedTextHTML": "I call Mr Raffan.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1986E53P206C708321", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeil, Duncan", "ID": 1986, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Greenock and Inverclyde" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan McNeil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Duncan McNeil (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 206.0, "ContributionID": 708321, "EditedText": "On a point of order. When Sir David Steel opened the debate, he said that those who were not here while the minister was making the statement would not be called in the debate. Now Mr Raffan has been called. Will you please give clarification?", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. When Sir David Steel opened the debate, he said that those who were not here while the minister was making the statement would not be called in the debate. Now Mr Raffan has been called. Will you please give clarification?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C708322", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 208.0, "ContributionID": 708322, "EditedText": "I do not think that Sir David said that they would not be called; he said that their absence would be taken into consideration. A number of members, who were not here for the minister's speech or for other parts of the debate, have spoken. We take that into consideration, but it does not rule someone out.", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not think that Sir David said that they would not be called; he said that their absence would be taken into consideration. A number of members, who were not here for the minister's speech or for other parts of the debate, have spoken. We take that into consideration, but it does not rule someone out.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C708323", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 210.0, "ContributionID": 708323, "EditedText": "Can I perhaps help you, Presiding Officer? My understanding was that Sir David said that members who spoke in the debate should be here when the minister summed up.", "EditedTextHTML": "Can I perhaps help you, Presiding Officer? My understanding was that Sir David said that members who spoke in the debate should be

here when the minister summed up.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C708336", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 239.0, "ContributionID": 708336, "EditedText": "Is it not the case that many of the individuals who go through our courts have been released from prison on parole and committed a crime as soon as they got out? Such people clog up the courts and are simply recycled through our prisons.", "EditedTextHTML": "Is it not the case that many of the individuals who go through our courts have been released from prison on parole and committed a crime as soon as they got out? Such people clog up the courts and are simply recycled through our prisons.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2013E134P232C708337", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jackson, Gordon", "ID": 2013, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Govan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Gordon Jackson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Gordon Jackson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 241.0, "ContributionID": 708337, "EditedText": "That suggests that people who go into prison come out and reoffend. It does not suggest that putting people into custody does much good. Detention is also expensive. The statistics that were produced by the previous Government showed that, in matters of crime prevention, £1 spent on non-custodial methods equals £7 spent on custody. The other method of crime prevention is giving more resources to the police. We are all in favour of that. I welcome the establishment of the drugs enforcement agency and I am in favour of having more police officers in the street. The trouble with those strategies is that they are born out of despair. In the past, the attitude has been that people will always commit crime, and the only thing that we can do is catch them doing it and lock them up. I am glad that we are to move away from that. Crime reduction is possible. I am a great supporter of CCTV, although I was sceptical at the beginning. I am conscious of the human rights issues, but I am convinced that it works and will support any initiative to give it more resources. CCTV also works in another way. It gives people confidence and a sense of safety. Elderly people ask me whether their area can be given CCTV— not simply to catch criminals, but to give them a sense of safety, which is important. The most important issue in the debate—and it is why I reject Phil's amendment—is the community aspect. The amendment goes away from that. I welcome the communities that care initiative. The minister has not had time to talk about the initiative, but it is important. It is sophisticated; it is not a slogan for political consumption. It identifies the risk areas in a community and targets them. The strategy has worked elsewhere, particularly in north America. It is an important step forward, but—and I always have a little complaint—we need to do more. Most crime is committed by young men, and we need to deal with that. Yesterday, I read some statistics for people who are sent to prison for life for homicide. The peak age is 18. The biggest group is the 15 to 18-year-old bracket, and I have no doubt that that is the biggest group for all offending. We need to go into schools and set up and resource proper educational programmes that deal with the community aspects of crime prevention.", "EditedTextHTML": "That suggests that people who go into prison come out and reoffend. It does not suggest that putting people into custody does much good.

Detention is also expensive. The statistics that were produced by the previous Government showed that, in matters of crime prevention, £1 spent on non-custodial methods equals £7 spent on custody.

The other method of crime prevention is giving more resources to the police. We are all in favour of that. I welcome the establishment of the drugs enforcement agency and I am in favour of having more police officers in the street.

The trouble with those strategies is that they are born out of despair. In the past, the attitude has been that people will always commit crime, and the only thing that we can do is catch them doing it and lock them up. I am glad that we are to move away from that. Crime reduction is possible. I am a great supporter of CCTV, although I was sceptical at the beginning. I am conscious of the human rights issues, but I am convinced that it works and will support any initiative to give it more resources.

CCTV also works in another way. It gives people confidence and a sense of safety. Elderly people ask me whether their area can be given CCTV— not simply to catch criminals, but to give them a sense of safety, which is important.

The most important issue in the debate—and it is why I reject Phil's amendment—is the community aspect. The amendment goes away from that. I welcome the communities that care initiative. The minister has not had time to talk about the initiative, but it is important. It is sophisticated; it is not a slogan for political consumption. It identifies the risk areas in a community and targets them. The strategy has worked elsewhere, particularly in north America. It is an important step forward, but—and I always have a little complaint—we need to do more.

Most crime is committed by young men, and we need to deal with that. Yesterday, I read some statistics for people who are sent to prison for life for homicide. The peak age is 18. The biggest group is the 15 to 18-year-old bracket, and I have no doubt that that is the biggest group for all offending. We need to go into schools and set up and resource proper educational programmes that deal with the community aspects of crime prevention.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2056E57P84C708342", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James", "ID": 2056, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "James Douglas-Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Lord James Douglas-Hamilton (Lothians) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 252.0, "ContributionID": 708342, "EditedText": "Gordon Jackson is right that young people between 15 and 18 are at most risk, either of being assaulted—in the case of severe crime—or of being charged with a severe crime. I wish to raise a problem with the minister that has not been touched upon today—Scottish citizens who murder overseas. When someone is convicted of murder in Scotland, they will find on their release—if they are released—that they are subject to release on licence. However, a person who murders overseas—for example, in Canada— can be returned here once they have served their sentence and will not be subject to any supervisory requirements. The police brought it to my knowledge that someone was returned to this country after committing a murder, who had spent only the first three years of his life here. He was not subject to any supervisory requirements. Perhaps he cannot give an answer today, but I ask the minister to look at that problem and to suggest proposals for dealing with it. Euan Robson supported community policing— that is wholly admirable—and witness protection, which is very necessary. Of course the police must have the necessary resources. I am glad to see that police numbers will increase, but they have decreased by 266; whatever increases there have been in administrative support, that needs to be addressed. There have been many significant speeches this morning on the issue of drugs, and support for a comprehensive approach. I agree with Keith Raffan about cannabis; it is a matter of particular debate. I wrote to Sam Galbraith about it because I believe that it has harmful medical effects. He confirmed in a letter dated 27 May that \"there are potential risks associated with the use of cannabis. These include, in the short term, impairment of concentration, memory loss and manual dexterity and in the long term, respiratory diseases such as bronchitis and lung cancer.\" He continued:\"We have no intention of legalising or decriminalising the drug. This would send the wrong messages to society . . . at a time when we are encouraging people not to smoke and not to drink excessive amounts of alcohol, because of the harmful effects, it would be totally inconsistent to legalise cannabis.\" It is my understanding that the minister touched on that this morning and that that is his position. I should be glad if he could confirm that his position remains strong on that issue. It would help if the minister could say what is done with drug dealers' assets that are confiscated by the police and whether the value of those assets is ploughed back into police funds. What support is he giving to Scotland Against Drugs? Karen Whitefield was right to call for a victims charter—more action is necessary on behalf of victims. It is important that when they go to court, there should be a victim-friendly atmosphere. That is why a video link is desirable in many cases involving serious violence to women. Victims should be better informed—I understand that measures are in place to take that forward—and when cases do not proceed, they should be told why. Victims should also be told whether an assailant who perpetrated a violent attack on them is about to be released. A former constituent of mine, who was badly damaged in an acid attack, felt strongly that the incident might not have happened if she had been properly informed. Those are not abstract, theoretical matters— they matter to those involved. I hope that stronger support will be given to Victim Support Scotland. The case for CCTV—as has been said by many members—is overwhelming. It has been very effective, with a reduction in the commission of crime and a greater clear-up rate. Computerised fingerprinting and the use of high technology and DNA are also important. I request the minister to continue to support the work of Apex Trust Scotland. If prisoners go into a job when they come out of prison, it benefits the whole community. Apex is able to facilitate that and has had a remarkable success rate. Will the minister support courses in prison? Whether they are anger management courses, modules or degrees, they all play their part in the overall spectrum. What is important about crime prevention is the effective and successful protection of the community. I hope that the minister will address the problem of those who murder abroad being returned to Scotland without any supervisory requirements.", "EditedTextHTML": "Gordon Jackson is right that young people between 15 and 18 are at most risk, either of being assaulted—in the case of severe crime—or of being charged with a severe crime.

I wish to raise a problem with the minister that has not been touched upon today—Scottish citizens who murder overseas. When someone is convicted of murder in Scotland, they will find on their release—if they are released—that they are subject to release on licence. However, a person who murders overseas—for example, in Canada— can be returned here once they have served their sentence and will not be subject to any supervisory requirements.

The police brought it to my knowledge that someone was returned to this country after committing a murder, who had spent only the first three years of his life here. He was not subject to any supervisory requirements. Perhaps he cannot give an answer today, but I ask the minister to look at that problem and to suggest proposals for dealing with it.

Euan Robson supported community policing— that is wholly admirable—and witness protection, which is very necessary. Of course the police must have the necessary resources. I am glad to see that police numbers will increase, but they have decreased by 266; whatever increases there have been in administrative support, that needs to be addressed.

There have been many significant speeches this morning on the issue of drugs, and support for a

comprehensive approach. I agree with Keith Raffan about cannabis; it is a matter of particular debate. I wrote to Sam Galbraith about it because I believe that it has harmful medical effects. He confirmed in a letter dated 27 May that

\"there are potential risks associated with the use of cannabis. These include, in the short term, impairment of concentration, memory loss and manual dexterity and in the long term, respiratory diseases such as bronchitis and lung cancer.\"

He continued:

\"We have no intention of legalising or decriminalising the drug. This would send the wrong messages to society . . . at a time when we are encouraging people not to smoke and not to drink excessive amounts of alcohol, because of the harmful effects, it would be totally inconsistent to legalise cannabis.\"

It is my understanding that the minister touched on that this morning and that that is his position. I should be glad if he could confirm that his position remains strong on that issue.

It would help if the minister could say what is done with drug dealers' assets that are confiscated by the police and whether the value of those assets is ploughed back into police funds. What support is he giving to Scotland Against Drugs?

Karen Whitefield was right to call for a victims charter—more action is necessary on behalf of victims. It is important that when they go to court, there should be a victim-friendly atmosphere. That is why a video link is desirable in many cases involving serious violence to women. Victims should be better informed—I understand that measures are in place to take that forward—and when cases do not proceed, they should be told why.

Victims should also be told whether an assailant who perpetrated a violent attack on them is about to be released. A former constituent of mine, who was badly damaged in an acid attack, felt strongly that the incident might not have happened if she had been properly informed.

Those are not abstract, theoretical matters— they matter to those involved. I hope that stronger support will be given to Victim Support Scotland.

The case for CCTV—as has been said by many members—is overwhelming. It has been very effective, with a reduction in the commission of crime and a greater clear-up rate. Computerised fingerprinting and the use of high technology and DNA are also important.

I request the minister to continue to support the work of Apex Trust Scotland. If prisoners go into a job when they come out of prison, it benefits the whole community. Apex is able to facilitate that and has had a remarkable success rate. Will the minister support courses in prison? Whether they are anger management courses, modules or degrees, they all play their part in the overall spectrum.

What is important about crime prevention is the effective and successful protection of the community. I hope that the minister will address the problem of those who murder abroad being returned to Scotland without any supervisory requirements.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C708350", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 269.0, "ContributionID": 708350, "EditedText": "No, Mr Gallie. To accommodate everyone who wishes to speak, we would have to extend this part of the meeting almost into this afternoon's time. It is not possible, so we will move on to Mr Matheson, who had begun to speak.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, Mr Gallie. To accommodate everyone who wishes to speak, we would have to extend this part of the meeting almost into this afternoon's time. It is not possible, so we will move on to Mr Matheson, who had begun to speak.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C708357", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 284.0, "ContributionID": 708357, "EditedText": "Mrs McIntosh was attacking an alleged comment. She was not there.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mrs McIntosh was attacking an alleged comment. She was not there.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2122E6P19C708359", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay", "ID": 2122, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lyndsay McIntosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs McIntosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 288.0, "ContributionID": 708359, "EditedText": "I admit that I was not there. If I had been there, I would have condemned him roundly. It was an incredibly insensitive thing to say, particularly given where he was.", "EditedTextHTML": "I admit that I was not there. If I had been there, I would have condemned him roundly. It was an incredibly insensitive thing to say, particularly given where he was.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C708360", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 290.0, "ContributionID": 708360, "EditedText": "Three different newspapers have said three different things.", "EditedTextHTML": "Three different newspapers have said three different things.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2122E6P19C708352", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay", "ID": 2122, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lyndsay McIntosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Lyndsay McIntosh (Central Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 274.0, "ContributionID": 708352, "EditedText": "First, I apologise to the minister for being late for this debate. I was delayed by two fender- bender episodes on the M8 this morning. No one was injured, I am happy to say. A number of issues have cropped up this morning. I want to dispel the idea that we are the hang 'em and flog 'em brigade. I know that we have had that tendency in the past. Interruption. There was no mention of hanging, flogging or shooting, Roseanna. We are the caring Conservative party now. Many of us agree about the strategies to solve—Keith Raffan asked for a change in terminology—what could be called the drugs dilemma instead of the drugs war. There is a serious issue here. It behoves us all to take on board that, although we disagree in certain areas, many of us agree on a great number of aspects of the problem. It is a health, education and law and order matter. Karen Whitefield called for support for the victims charter and for Victim Support. It is incontrovertible that £27,000 has been knocked off the funding for Victim Support. I support Karen's call, and hope that the minister will respond to it. I was appalled last night to hear the comments of Richard Holloway. I hope that others will join me in condemning them. I know that the Administration takes this very seriously.", "EditedTextHTML": "First, I apologise to the minister for being late for this debate. I was delayed by two fender- bender episodes on the M8 this morning. No one was injured, I am happy to say.

A number of issues have cropped up this morning. I want to dispel the idea that we are the hang 'em and flog 'em brigade. I know that we have had that tendency in the past. [Interruption.] There was no mention of hanging, flogging or shooting, Roseanna. We are the caring Conservative party now. Many of us agree about the strategies to solve—Keith Raffan asked for a change in terminology—what could be called the drugs dilemma instead of the drugs war. There is

a serious issue here. It behoves us all to take on board that, although we disagree in certain areas, many of us agree on a great number of aspects of the problem. It is a health, education and law and order matter.

Karen Whitefield called for support for the victims charter and for Victim Support. It is incontrovertible that £27,000 has been knocked off the funding for Victim Support. I support Karen's call, and hope that the minister will respond to it.

I was appalled last night to hear the comments of Richard Holloway. I hope that others will join me in condemning them. I know that the Administration takes this very seriously.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C708353", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 276.0, "ContributionID": 708353, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C708355", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 280.0, "ContributionID": 708355, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C708362", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 294.0, "ContributionID": 708362, "EditedText": "I call on Angus MacKay to wind up the debate.", "EditedTextHTML": "I call on Angus MacKay to wind up the debate.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C708364", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 298.0, "ContributionID": 708364, "EditedText": "Mr Sheridan, I have already explained that there is no guarantee for any member to speak in a debate. We try to accommodate as many members as we can. I will move on so that we can bring the debate to a conclusion.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Sheridan, I have already explained that there is no guarantee for any member to speak in a debate. We try to accommodate as many members as we can. I will move on so that we can bring the debate to a conclusion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708375", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26844, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 307.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 307.0, "ID": 26844, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 320.0, "ContributionID": 708375, "EditedText": "Before we begin the afternoon session, I want to respond to the points of order that were raised at the end of the morning. It is the policy of the chair to try to include as many members as possible in debates. That may sometimes mean that a debate will overrun by a few minutes. Frankly, the alternative is to do what they do at the House of Commons, which is to cut people off in mid-sentence. I believe that a bit of flexibility is to be encouraged. I have read the report of the Procedures Committee's meeting on Tuesday, which indicates that during question time the chair should be stricter on irrelevant supplementaries and on members making statements instead of asking questions. I propose to follow the committee's advice.", "EditedTextHTML": "Before we begin the afternoon session, I want to respond to the points of order that were raised at the end of the morning.

It is the policy of the chair to try to include as many members as possible in debates. That may sometimes mean that a debate will overrun by a few minutes. Frankly, the alternative is to do what they do at the House of Commons, which is to cut people off in mid-sentence. I believe that a bit of flexibility is to be encouraged.

I have read the report of the Procedures Committee's meeting on Tuesday, which indicates that during question time the chair should be stricter on irrelevant supplementaries and on members making statements instead of asking questions. I propose to follow the committee's advice.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C708370", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26844, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 307.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 307.0, "ID": 26844, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 313.0, "ContributionID": 708370, "EditedText": "The question is, that motion S1M-167, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "The question is, that motion S1M-167, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1990E181P340C708380", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26845, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26846, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "QuestionHeading": "Farm Support", "QuestionHeadingID": 26848, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 333.0, "DisplayOrder": 333.0, "ID": 26848, "ParentID": 26846 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robson, Euan", "ID": 1990, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Roxburgh and Berwickshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Euan Robson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "2. Euan Robson (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 334.0, "ContributionID": 708380, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what progress is being made on the introduction of an independent appeal mechanism for farmers suffering penalties in relation to their European Union subsidy claims. (S1O-368) The Minister for Rural Affairs (Ross Finnie): An examination of possible options for an independent appeal mechanism is under way. Details of the proposed arrangements will be issued for consultation by the end of the year.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what progress is being made on the introduction of an independent appeal mechanism for farmers suffering penalties in relation to their European Union subsidy claims. (S1O-368) The Minister for Rural Affairs (Ross Finnie): An examination of possible options for an independent appeal mechanism is under way. Details of the proposed arrangements will be issued for consultation by the end of the year.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1990E181P340C708381", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26845, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26846, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "QuestionHeading": "Farm Support", "QuestionHeadingID": 26848, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 333.0, "DisplayOrder": 333.0, "ID": 26848, "ParentID": 26846 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robson, Euan", "ID": 1990, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Roxburgh and Berwickshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Euan Robson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Euan Robson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 336.0, "ContributionID": 708381, "EditedText": "I thank the minister for his answer and for his courtesy in being in the chamber today when there are distractions—or attractions—elsewhere. Does the minister accept that farmers are alarmed at the bureaucracy and inflexibility of the rules governing integrated administration and control scheme subsidy claims and at the handling of such claims? Will he undertake to include current disputes in the appeals procedure?", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the minister for his answer and for his courtesy in being in the chamber today when there are distractions—or attractions—elsewhere.

Does the minister accept that farmers are alarmed at the bureaucracy and inflexibility of the rules governing integrated administration and control scheme subsidy claims and at the handling of such claims? Will he undertake to include current disputes in the appeals procedure?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C708382", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26845, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26846, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "QuestionHeading": "Farm Support", "QuestionHeadingID": 26848, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 333.0, "DisplayOrder": 333.0, "ID": 26848, "ParentID": 26846 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ross Finnie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 338.0, "ContributionID": 708382, "EditedText": "I sympathise with Mr Robson's point about inflexibility. I regret to say that the determination of flexibility is entirely in the hands of the European Commission and the European Union, which set down the rules. There have been one or two—and only one or two—relaxations in how we are able to implement those rules, but I regret that flexibility is not in the hands of the Scottish Executive. On prior claims, the scheme that I hope, as I said, to put out for consultation before the end of the year will have to meet European convention on human rights requirements. Retrospection is not built in or required and it would be neither practical nor practicable.", "EditedTextHTML": "I sympathise with Mr Robson's point about inflexibility. I regret to say that the determination of flexibility is entirely in the hands of the European Commission and the European Union, which set down the rules. There have been one or two—and only one or two—relaxations in how we are able to implement those rules, but I regret that flexibility is not in the hands of the Scottish Executive.

On prior claims, the scheme that I hope, as I said, to put out for consultation before the end of the year will have to meet European convention on human rights requirements. Retrospection is not built in or required and it would be neither practical nor practicable.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1751E163P286C708383", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26845, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26846, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "QuestionHeading": "Housing", "QuestionHeadingID": 26849, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 340.0, "DisplayOrder": 340.0, "ID": 26849, "ParentID": 26846 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Craigie, Cathie", "ID": 1751, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Cumbernauld and Kilsyth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Cathie Craigie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "3. Cathie Craigie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 341.0, "ContributionID": 708383, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what level of response there has been, through consultation on the housing green paper, to the anti-social tenant measures outlined therein. (S1O-373) The Minister for Communities (Ms Wendy Alexander): As set out in the green paper, significant measures have been put in place to tackle anti-social behaviour. Several respondents suggested that further steps are needed. We are considering the potential for further measures in the context of responses received and in the context of the partnership agreement.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what level of response there has been, through consultation on the housing green paper, to the anti-social tenant measures outlined therein. (S1O-373) The Minister for Communities (Ms Wendy Alexander): As set out in the green paper, significant measures have been put in place to tackle anti-social behaviour. Several respondents suggested that further steps are needed. We are considering the potential for further measures in the context of responses received and in the context of the partnership agreement.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1751E163P286C708384", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26845, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26846, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "QuestionHeading": "Housing", "QuestionHeadingID": 26849, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 340.0, "DisplayOrder": 340.0, "ID": 26849, "ParentID": 26846 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Craigie, Cathie", "ID": 1751, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Cumbernauld and Kilsyth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Cathie Craigie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Cathie Craigie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 343.0, "ContributionID": 708384, "EditedText": "Does the minister agree that combined efforts are needed by the Parliament, the police, communities, courts and local authorities to ensure that people are able to enjoy peace and quiet in their own homes? Does she also agree that it is not acceptable for the lives of the vast majority of decent people to be made miserable by a small minority who behave in an anti-social way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the minister agree that combined efforts are needed by the Parliament, the police, communities, courts and local authorities to ensure that people are able to enjoy peace and quiet in their own homes? Does she also agree that it is not acceptable for the lives of the vast majority of decent people to be made miserable by a small minority who behave in an anti-social way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1962E35P56C708386", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26845, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26846, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "QuestionHeading": "Dumfries and Galloway Economic Forum", "QuestionHeadingID": 26850, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 347.0, "DisplayOrder": 347.0, "ID": 26850, "ParentID": 26846 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mundell, David", "ID": 1962, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Mundell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "4. David Mundell (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 348.0, "ContributionID": 708386, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what progress has been made on the establishment of the Dumfries and Galloway economic forum. (S1O-342)", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what progress has been made on the establishment of the Dumfries and Galloway economic forum. (S1O-342)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C708390", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26845, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26846, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "QuestionHeading": "Health Care", "QuestionHeadingID": 26851, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 356.0, "DisplayOrder": 356.0, "ID": 26851, "ParentID": 26846 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "5. Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 357.0, "ContributionID": 708390, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what it intends to do to address the inequalities in health between men and women in Scotland. (S1O-366) The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): There are clear differences between the health needs of men and women, but we should not forget that the life circumstances of individuals are also a key factor in health inequalities. Reducing inequalities between rich and poor will also help to tackle the different health needs of men and women. The Scottish Executive is committed to tackling health inequalities through national programmes on cancer, heart disease and child health. We will ensure a fairer allocation of national health service resources in future, in order to ensure that local health services meet real need.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what it intends to do to address the inequalities in health between men and women in Scotland. (S1O-366) The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): There are clear differences between the health needs of men and women, but we should not forget that the life circumstances of individuals are also a key factor in health inequalities. Reducing inequalities between rich and poor will also help to tackle the different health needs of men and women. The Scottish Executive is committed to tackling health inequalities through national programmes on cancer, heart disease and child health. We will ensure a fairer allocation of national health service resources in future, in order to ensure that local health services meet real need.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C708395", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26845, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26846, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "QuestionHeading": "Road Maintenance", "QuestionHeadingID": 26852, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 363.0, "DisplayOrder": 363.0, "ID": 26852, "ParentID": 26846 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 368.0, "ContributionID": 708395, "EditedText": "I had hoped that Ms Boyack's new deputy might take the question—Applause.— perhaps he has.", "EditedTextHTML": "I had hoped that Ms Boyack's new deputy might take the question—[Applause.]— perhaps he has.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C708397", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26845, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26846, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "QuestionHeading": "Road Maintenance", "QuestionHeadingID": 26852, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 363.0, "DisplayOrder": 363.0, "ID": 26852, "ParentID": 26846 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 372.0, "ContributionID": 708397, "EditedText": "Does the Scottish Executive have, or does it plan to make available to itself, up-to-date and accurate information on the trunk road maintenance backlog? Will the money that is allocated in the Executive's programme for that backlog be sufficient to deal with on-going maintenance? How many years, at current projected levels of expenditure, does the First Minister expect it will take to eliminate that backlog?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the Scottish Executive have, or does it plan to make available to itself, up-to-date and accurate information on the trunk road maintenance backlog? Will the money that is allocated in the Executive's programme for that backlog be sufficient to deal with on-going maintenance? How many years, at current projected levels of expenditure, does the First Minister expect it will take to eliminate that backlog?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C708398", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26845, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26846, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "QuestionHeading": "Road Maintenance", "QuestionHeadingID": 26852, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 363.0, "DisplayOrder": 363.0, "ID": 26852, "ParentID": 26846 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 374.0, "ContributionID": 708398, "EditedText": "We do not have a national roads maintenance condition survey in Scotland because a more comprehensive survey is under way. The results are in table 5.5—\"Trunk Road Network: Residual Life (Years)\"—of \"Scottish Transport Statistics 1999\". If Mr Tosh wishes the technicalities, the table is based on deflectographs, high-speed surveys and scrim—or skidding resistance—with 100 per cent coverage every two years. I hope that I have supplied some interesting reading for Mr Tosh in the immediate future.", "EditedTextHTML": "We do not have a national roads maintenance condition survey in Scotland because a more comprehensive survey is under way. The results are in table 5.5—\"Trunk Road Network: Residual Life (Years)\"—of \"Scottish Transport Statistics 1999\". If Mr Tosh wishes the technicalities, the table is based on deflectographs, high-speed surveys and scrim—or skidding resistance—with 100 per cent coverage every two years. I hope that I have supplied some interesting reading for Mr Tosh in the immediate future.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C708400", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26845, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26846, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "QuestionHeading": "Road Maintenance", "QuestionHeadingID": 26852, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 363.0, "DisplayOrder": 363.0, "ID": 26852, "ParentID": 26846 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 378.0, "ContributionID": 708400, "EditedText": "This is one of the areas in which there probably never is enough money. It is certainly one of the areas that has suffered a lack of funding in the past. Mr Tosh will know, of course, that there is an increased allocation of £45 million in 1999-2000, as against the allocation of £25 million in 1998-99. Matters are improving, as they generally are in public expenditure, over the period of the comprehensive spending review. I am sure that he will join me in welcoming that fact.", "EditedTextHTML": "This is one of the areas in which there probably never is enough money. It is certainly one of the areas that has suffered a lack of funding in the past. Mr Tosh will know, of course, that there is an increased allocation of £45 million in 1999-2000, as against the allocation of £25 million in 1998-99. Matters are improving, as they generally are in public expenditure, over the period of the comprehensive spending review. I am sure that he will join me in welcoming that fact.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2154E194P299C708402", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26845, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26846, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "QuestionHeading": "Kincardine Power Station", "QuestionHeadingID": 26853, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 380.0, "DisplayOrder": 380.0, "ID": 26853, "ParentID": 26846 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stephen, Nicol", "ID": 2154, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Nicol Stephen", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning (Nicol Stephen): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 383.0, "ContributionID": 708402, "EditedText": "There have been discussions with Scottish Power on this issue. Scottish Power is part of a consortium undertaking a feasibility study into the possible establishment of a clean coal gasification power station at Kincardine. The consortium has gained EU financing under the THERMIE programme for this study. Scottish Ministers would have to consider and approve an application for consent under section 36 of the Electricity Act 1989 if the proposal were to progress to construction. I understand that such an application from Scottish Power could be at least five years away.", "EditedTextHTML": "There have been discussions with Scottish Power on this issue. Scottish Power is part of a consortium undertaking a feasibility study into the possible establishment of a clean coal gasification power station at Kincardine. The consortium has gained EU financing under the THERMIE programme for this study. Scottish Ministers would have to consider and approve an application for consent under section 36 of the Electricity Act 1989 if the proposal were to progress to construction. I understand that such an application from Scottish Power could be at least five years away.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C708405", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26845, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26846, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "QuestionHeading": "Kincardine Power Station", "QuestionHeadingID": 26853, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 380.0, "DisplayOrder": 380.0, "ID": 26853, "ParentID": 26846 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bruce Crawford: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 389.0, "ContributionID": 708405, "EditedText": "I hope that the minister will support my suggestion.", "EditedTextHTML": "I hope that the minister will support my suggestion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C708409", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26845, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26846, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "QuestionHeading": "Women Offenders", "QuestionHeadingID": 26854, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 393.0, "DisplayOrder": 393.0, "ID": 26854, "ParentID": 26846 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Angus MacKay: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 398.0, "ContributionID": 708409, "EditedText": "A major review of community disposals took place last year. The chief inspectors of prisons and social work collaborated on that report. A follow-up review is taking place under the auspices of Professor Sheila McLean. The committee that is dealing with the follow-up report has met eight times and we await a further report from Professor McLean. A number of measures have been put in place in respect of bail retrieval for women prisoners who are remanded in custody. They are available as a result of the committee's work.", "EditedTextHTML": "A major review of community disposals took place last year. The chief inspectors of prisons and social work collaborated on that report.

A follow-up review is taking place under the auspices of Professor Sheila McLean. The committee that is dealing with the follow-up report has met eight times and we await a further report from Professor McLean.

A number of measures have been put in place in respect of bail retrieval for women prisoners who are remanded in custody. They are available as a result of the committee's work.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2068E171P304C708411", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26845, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26846, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "QuestionHeading": "Roads (A9)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26855, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 400.0, "DisplayOrder": 400.0, "ID": 26855, "ParentID": 26846 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stone, Jamie", "ID": 2068, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie Stone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Stone: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 403.0, "ContributionID": 708411, "EditedText": "I thank the minister for his answer. As a good highlander, he will be aware of the transport problems in the remoter parts of Scotland. Regarding Berriedale, will the minister press my case with Sarah Boyack and her civil servants on her return? I seek a meeting to further this cause.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the minister for his answer. As a good highlander, he will be aware of the transport problems in the remoter parts of Scotland. Regarding Berriedale, will the minister press my case with Sarah Boyack and her civil servants on her return? I seek a meeting to further this cause.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1889E118P162C708412", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26845, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26846, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "QuestionHeading": "Roads (A9)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26855, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 400.0, "DisplayOrder": 400.0, "ID": 26855, "ParentID": 26846 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morrison, Mr Alasdair", "ID": 1889, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Western Isles" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morrison", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Morrison: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 405.0, "ContributionID": 708412, "EditedText": "I will be delighted to convey that request to Sarah Boyack's private office.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will be delighted to convey that request to Sarah Boyack's private office.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1889E118P162C708414", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26845, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26846, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "QuestionHeading": "Railway Station (Dysart)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26856, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 407.0, "DisplayOrder": 407.0, "ID": 26856, "ParentID": 26846 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morrison, Mr Alasdair", "ID": 1889, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Western Isles" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morrison", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Highlands and Islands and Gaelic (Mr Alasdair Morrison): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 410.0, "ContributionID": 708414, "EditedText": "I understand that the south Fife and Forth estuary public transport study, commissioned by Fife Council, is reviewing the transport options for the area, including the merits of a station at Dysart.", "EditedTextHTML": "I understand that the south Fife and Forth estuary public transport study, commissioned by Fife Council, is reviewing the transport options for the area, including the merits of a station at Dysart.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1889E118P162C708416", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26845, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26846, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "QuestionHeading": "Railway Station (Dysart)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26856, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 407.0, "DisplayOrder": 407.0, "ID": 26856, "ParentID": 26846 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morrison, Mr Alasdair", "ID": 1889, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Western Isles" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morrison", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Morrison: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 414.0, "ContributionID": 708416, "EditedText": "Ms Boyack is in great demand today. My understanding is that the report nears completion and might be available in three to four weeks. I will be delighted to convey the request for a meeting.", "EditedTextHTML": "Ms Boyack is in great demand today.

My understanding is that the report nears completion and might be available in three to four weeks.

I will be delighted to convey the request for a meeting.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C708420", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26845, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26846, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "QuestionHeading": "Scottish Environment Protection Agency", "QuestionHeadingID": 26857, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 418.0, "DisplayOrder": 418.0, "ID": 26857, "ParentID": 26846 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 423.0, "ContributionID": 708420, "EditedText": "I am very sorry that Mr Johnstone harbours these somewhat unfortunate thoughts. I would have hoped that he had more faith in the good judgment of the Executive. There are 11 members of SEPA, apart from the chairman, so it is just possible that the odd industry, and perhaps some areas of Scotland, will not be directly represented. That is inevitable. There are three elected members out of 12, of whom one happens to be a Labour member, but that does not seem to suggest any desperate outbreak of cronyism. The important thing is to have on the SEPA board people who have the talents, the interests and the equipment to do the job well. I am satisfied that we have. I remind Mr Johnstone that there are three regional boards, and that they represent fully the geographical extent of Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am very sorry that Mr Johnstone harbours these somewhat unfortunate thoughts. I would have hoped that he had more faith in the good judgment of the Executive.

There are 11 members of SEPA, apart from the chairman, so it is just possible that the odd industry, and perhaps some areas of Scotland, will not be directly represented. That is inevitable. There are three elected members out of 12, of whom one happens to be a Labour member, but that does not seem to suggest any desperate outbreak of cronyism.

The important thing is to have on the SEPA board people who have the talents, the interests and the equipment to do the job well. I am satisfied that we have. I remind Mr Johnstone that there are three regional boards, and that they represent fully the geographical extent of Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708423", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26845, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26846, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "QuestionHeading": "Drug Trafficking", "QuestionHeadingID": 26858, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 425.0, "DisplayOrder": 425.0, "ID": 26858, "ParentID": 26846 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 430.0, "ContributionID": 708423, "EditedText": "Mr McNeil, we must have a question.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr McNeil, we must have a question.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C708428", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26845, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26846, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "QuestionHeading": "Drug Trafficking", "QuestionHeadingID": 26858, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 425.0, "DisplayOrder": 425.0, "ID": 26858, "ParentID": 26846 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Angus MacKay: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 440.0, "ContributionID": 708428, "EditedText": "As members may be aware, I have been invited by the Irish justice minister to visit Dublin to look at the drug enforcement practices of the Irish Government. While I am there, one of the subjects that I shall be interested to discuss is how assets that have been seized from criminals can be used in communities for preventive and rehabilitative work. While I am in Dublin, any inquiries for information on meetings can be relayed to my office through the usual source, Mr Alasdair Morrison.", "EditedTextHTML": "As members may be aware, I have been invited by the Irish justice minister to visit Dublin to look at the drug enforcement practices of the Irish Government. While I am there, one of the subjects that I shall be interested to discuss is how assets that have been seized from criminals can be used in communities for preventive and rehabilitative work. While I am in Dublin, any inquiries for information on meetings

can be relayed to my office through the usual source, Mr Alasdair Morrison.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C708431", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26845, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26846, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "QuestionHeading": "Housing", "QuestionHeadingID": 26859, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 442.0, "DisplayOrder": 442.0, "ID": 26859, "ParentID": 26846 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 447.0, "ContributionID": 708431, "EditedText": "Mr Quinan ignores the fact that the decision on the future of Glasgow's housing will be made by Glasgow's tenants alone.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Quinan ignores the fact that the decision on the future of Glasgow's housing will be made by Glasgow's tenants alone.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C708433", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26845, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26846, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "QuestionHeading": "Teachers' Pay", "QuestionHeadingID": 26860, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 451.0, "DisplayOrder": 451.0, "ID": 26860, "ParentID": 26846 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "15. Dennis Canavan (Falkirk West): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 452.0, "ContributionID": 708433, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive, further to the answer to question S1O-267 given by Mr Sam Galbraith on 9 September 1999, whether it will make a statement on the up-to-date position on the teachers' pay dispute. (S1O-363) The Deputy Minister for Children and Education (Peter Peacock): Yesterday, Sam Galbraith announced that an independent committee of inquiry is to be established to make recommendations on a new pay and conditions package for teachers, and on a future mechanism for delivering and determining the pay and conditions for teachers.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive, further to the answer to question S1O-267 given by Mr Sam Galbraith on 9 September 1999, whether it will make a statement on the up-to-date position on the teachers' pay dispute. (S1O-363) The Deputy Minister for Children and Education (Peter Peacock): Yesterday, Sam Galbraith announced that an independent committee of inquiry is to be established to make recommendations on a new pay and conditions package for teachers, and on a future mechanism for delivering and determining the pay and conditions for teachers.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2167E79P155C708435", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26845, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26846, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "QuestionHeading": "Teachers' Pay", "QuestionHeadingID": 26860, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 451.0, "DisplayOrder": 451.0, "ID": 26860, "ParentID": 26846 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Peacock, Peter", "ID": 2167, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Peter Peacock", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Peter Peacock: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 456.0, "ContributionID": 708435, "EditedText": "On the first point, this Administration has a strong desire to ensure that teachers are rewarded for the job they do in the classroom, because they do a superb job. However, the present arrangements fail teachers by failing to give them the appropriate rewards to satisfy their needs as well as their communities' need for a strong education system. In answer to Mr Canavan's second point, the composition of the inquiry team is broad. Two head teachers and a director of education will advise the team. The head teachers have been right through the school system and have seen the whole panoply of what goes on in a school, so they are well placed to make judgments, as is the director of education. As to the final point about the vacancy, it is thought only proper that the chairman should be given the opportunity to consult ministers as to whom they think the last person in the team should be. There is no question whatever of cronyism.", "EditedTextHTML": "On the first point, this Administration has a strong desire to ensure that teachers are rewarded for the job they do in the classroom, because they do a superb job. However, the present arrangements fail teachers by failing to give them the appropriate rewards to satisfy their needs as well as their communities' need for a strong education system.

In answer to Mr Canavan's second point, the composition of the inquiry team is broad. Two head teachers and a director of education will advise the team. The head teachers have been right through the school system and have seen the whole panoply of what goes on in a school, so they are well placed to make judgments, as is the director of education.

As to the final point about the vacancy, it is thought only proper that the chairman should be given the opportunity to consult ministers as to whom they think the last person in the team should be. There is no question whatever of cronyism.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1805E13P109C708436", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26845, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26846, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 323.0, "QuestionHeading": "Community Planning", "QuestionHeadingID": 26861, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 458.0, "DisplayOrder": 458.0, "ID": 26861, "ParentID": 26846 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Whitefield, Karen", "ID": 1805, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Airdrie and Shotts" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Karen Whitefield", "SpeakerDisplayName": "16. Karen Whitefield (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 459.0, "ContributionID": 708436, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what progress has been made in the community planning process currently being undertaken by Scottish local authorities. (S1O-372) The Deputy Minister for Local Government (Mr Frank McAveety): We want to learn from the experience of the five pathfinder councils, which have now reported, and to build on that experience. One of the key elements of the new consultation document on the McIntosh report will be community planning.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what progress has been made in the community planning process currently being undertaken by Scottish local authorities. (S1O-372) The Deputy Minister for Local Government (Mr Frank McAveety): We want to learn from the experience of the five pathfinder councils, which have now reported, and to build on that experience. One of the key elements of the new consultation document on the McIntosh report will be community planning.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4827308+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1870E181P475C708260", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robison, Shona", "ID": 1870, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Shona Robison", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Shona Robison (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 76.0, "ContributionID": 708260, "EditedText": "Will Mr Gallie give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "

Will Mr Gallie give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:00:52.6390172+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1756E184P464C708298", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Grahame, Christine", "ID": 1756, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Christine Grahame", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Christine Grahame: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 156.0, "ContributionID": 708298, "EditedText": "I shall give way in a moment. Let me get going a wee bit. I have sat through an awful lot of your speech, Phil. We recognise that it is human, when we see someone vandalising property—particularly our own car tyres or something—to want to go out and kill that person. That is an animal reaction; it is not the reaction of a civilised society in dealing with the offender, nor does it serve the interests of the community. I am pleased that the report addresses social inclusion—I am getting used to using such buzz expressions now—because a great deal of youth crime depends on family background, what happens at school, friends, one's self-evaluation, peer and community influence, and whether the offender lives in a neighbourhood in which taking drugs is standard. I am not excusing youth crime; I am explaining it, Phil. Those factors must be at the core of crime prevention requirements of the young offender.", "EditedTextHTML": "I shall give way in a moment. Let me get going a wee bit. I have sat through an awful lot of your speech, Phil.

We recognise that it is human, when we see someone vandalising property—particularly our own car tyres or something—to want to go out and kill that person. That is an animal reaction; it is not the reaction of a civilised society in dealing with the offender, nor does it serve the interests of the community. I am pleased that the report addresses social inclusion—I am getting used to using such buzz expressions now—because a great deal of youth crime depends on family background, what happens at school, friends, one's self-evaluation, peer and community influence, and whether the offender lives in a neighbourhood in which taking drugs is standard. I am not excusing youth crime; I am explaining it, Phil. Those factors must be at the core of crime prevention requirements of the young offender.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:01:13.4086808+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2133E222P520C708348", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Matheson, Michael", "ID": 2133, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Matheson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Matheson (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 265.0, "ContributionID": 708348, "EditedText": "I am guilty of having played no part in stopping Tommy making a speech, although I recognise that some members' speeches went on for some time.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am guilty of having played no part in stopping Tommy making a speech, although I recognise that some members' speeches went on for some time.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:44.0221047+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2133E222P520C708351", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Crime Prevention", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26843, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26843, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Matheson, Michael", "ID": 2133, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Matheson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Matheson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 271.0, "ContributionID": 708351, "EditedText": "Third time lucky.In considering today's debate, and having seen the minister's motion, I thought that there would be cross-party support, particularly in relation to the guidance document. However, I was not prepared for the Conservative approach to crime prevention of, \"Shoot them and hing them.\" If there is anything that the minister should take from the debate, it is that no party has a monopoly of ideas on how we should tackle crime and remove it from the streets of Scotland. Several members highlighted a variety of successful crime prevention schemes that are either running in their own areas at present or have done in the past. The issue of mobile police stations has been highlighted—they were a success for the police in the Dumfries and Galloway area. We have heard about the success of Fife Council's domestic violence programme. Karen Whitefield referred to credit unions and the impact that they could have on reducing crime on our streets. There are many good ideas, which should be promoted. One of the key features of the guidance document is that it focuses on finding local solutions to local problems and ensuring that local communities are consulted in the process of establishing strategies. I stress to the minister that it is essential that any form of consultation with local communities is worth while and effective. We all recognise that, where possible, local communities should be empowered to tackle their own problems. However, there can be nothing more demoralising for those in a local community who go through a consultation process than to feel at the end of it that their views have not been listened to or acted upon. I stress that the minister should ensure that the strategies that are implemented lead to genuine consultation—I am conscious that, for a variety of reasons, that word has been abused. Several colleagues mentioned the fact that the concept of community safety partnerships is not new. Yesterday I was having a chat with a gentleman from Victim Support in Lanarkshire, who told me that he was involved in a community safety strategy in Kilmarnock back in 1975. As was said, if Victim Support is to have a key role in the strategy, its funding must be addressed. Karen Whitefield highlighted the issue of a victims charter. Members should know that I lodged a motion for a members' business debate on Victim Support and the provision of a victims charter. I hope that Karen and other colleagues who support that will sign the motion in the chamber office. The post of local authority liaison officer, which is covered by the guidance document, is not new. To my knowledge, the first local authority liaison officer was in place almost eight years ago in Falkirk as part of Central Scotland police. It is essential to recognise that much work has been done in the past by a variety of organisations, both statutory and voluntary. We do not have to reinvent the wheel. In effect, the document formalises that process, rather than creating a new one. I hope that the minister will recognise that to talk about preventing crime is insufficient. To prevent crime, we must look beyond that, at the causes of crime, which, as the minister said, are often based in social disadvantage—unemployment, poverty and a feeling of hopelessness. That is why we must recognise that the guidance document must work in partnership with social inclusion strategies. How will the minister ensure that that will be done in the implementation of the crime prevention strategy? I want to highlight several points that have been raised. What additional resources will be provided to ensure that the strategy is put in place and will have the funding that it requires? There is concern about the use of CCTV and the need for regulation. Although we recognise the benefits of CCTV, there are concerns about the present code of practice and about whether the code is being adhered to. I would welcome the minister's assurance that that will continue to be monitored—not with a CCTV camera—so that public confidence in CCTV is maintained. I return to Roseanna Cunningham's point about the need to monitor the community partnership strategy effectively, to ensure that it works and that failings are addressed early on. It will have been wasteful for us to have a three-hour debate to discuss the document if people end up still living in fear because of crime in their neighbourhood. Will the minister ensure that there is an adequate system to monitor the strategy's effectiveness and that any failings are addressed early on?", "EditedTextHTML": "Third time lucky.

In considering today's debate, and having seen the minister's motion, I thought that there would be cross-party support, particularly in relation to the guidance document. However, I was not prepared for the Conservative approach to crime prevention of, \"Shoot them and hing them.\" If there is anything that the minister should take from the debate, it is that no party has a monopoly of ideas on how we should tackle crime and remove it from the streets of Scotland.

Several members highlighted a variety of successful crime prevention schemes that are either running in their own areas at present or have done in the past. The issue of mobile police stations has been highlighted—they were a success for the police in the Dumfries and Galloway area. We have heard about the success of Fife Council's domestic violence programme. Karen Whitefield referred to credit unions and the impact that they could have on reducing crime on our streets. There are many good ideas, which should be promoted.

One of the key features of the guidance document is that it focuses on finding local solutions to local problems and ensuring that local communities are consulted in the process of establishing strategies. I stress to the minister that it is essential that any form of consultation with local communities is worth while and effective.

We all recognise that, where possible, local communities should be empowered to tackle their own problems. However, there can be nothing more demoralising for those in a local community who go through a consultation process than to feel at the end of it that their views have not been listened to or acted upon. I stress that the minister should ensure that the strategies that are implemented lead to genuine consultation—I am conscious that, for a variety of reasons, that word has been abused.

Several colleagues mentioned the fact that the concept of community safety partnerships is not new. Yesterday I was having a chat with a gentleman from Victim Support in Lanarkshire, who told me that he was involved in a community safety strategy in Kilmarnock back in 1975.

As was said, if Victim Support is to have a key role in the strategy, its funding must be addressed. Karen Whitefield highlighted the issue of a victims charter. Members should know that I lodged a motion for a members' business debate on Victim Support and the provision of a victims charter. I hope that Karen and other colleagues who support that will sign the motion in the chamber office.

The post of local authority liaison officer, which is covered by the guidance document, is not new. To my knowledge, the first local authority liaison officer was in place almost eight years ago in Falkirk as part of Central Scotland police. It is essential to recognise that much work has been done in the past by a variety of organisations, both statutory and voluntary. We do not have to reinvent the wheel. In effect, the document formalises that process, rather than creating a new one.

I hope that the minister will recognise that to talk about preventing crime is insufficient. To prevent crime, we must look beyond that, at the causes of crime, which, as the minister said, are often based in social disadvantage—unemployment, poverty and a feeling of hopelessness. That is why we must recognise that the guidance document must work in partnership with social inclusion strategies. How will the minister ensure that that will be done in the implementation of the crime prevention strategy?

I want to highlight several points that have been raised. What additional resources will be provided to ensure that the strategy is put in place and will have the funding that it requires?

There is concern about the use of CCTV and the need for regulation. Although we recognise the benefits of CCTV, there are concerns about the present code of practice and about whether the code is being adhered to. I would welcome the minister's assurance that that will continue to be monitored—not with a CCTV camera—so that public confidence in CCTV is maintained.

I return to Roseanna Cunningham's point about the need to monitor the community partnership strategy effectively, to ensure that it works and that failings are addressed early on. It will have been wasteful for us to have a three-hour debate to discuss the document if people end up still living in fear because of crime in their neighbourhood. Will the minister ensure that there is an adequate system to monitor the strategy's effectiveness and that any failings are addressed early on?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:44.0221047+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C708465", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26865, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 486.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26866, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 489.0, "QuestionHeading": "Education", "QuestionHeadingID": 26868, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 521.0, "DisplayOrder": 521.0, "ID": 26868, "ParentID": 26866 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 524.0, "ContributionID": 708465, "EditedText": "I am not sure that it would take as long as the minister suggests. However, like all members of this Parliament, I am looking forward to debating in due course the detailed provisions of the education bill. Does the minister agree that the approach taken by the Minister for Children and Education to the on-going dispute over teachers' pay and conditions now threatens to undermine the rest of the Executive's agenda, in that it has brought the teaching profession closer to industrial action than it has been at any time in the previous 10 years? Does he also agree that, instead of choosing to bat this problem to yet another inquiry, the Executive might do better to face up to the difficulty now and provide the additional resources necessary to bring about a satisfactory and peaceful settlement to this dispute?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am not sure that it would take as long as the minister suggests. However, like all members of this Parliament, I am looking forward to debating in due course the detailed provisions of the education bill.

Does the minister agree that the approach taken by the Minister for Children and Education to the on-going dispute over teachers' pay and conditions now threatens to undermine the rest of the Executive's agenda, in that it has brought the teaching profession closer to industrial action than it has been at any time in the previous 10 years? Does he also agree that, instead of choosing to bat this problem to yet another inquiry, the Executive might do better to face up to the difficulty now and provide the additional resources necessary to bring about a satisfactory and peaceful settlement to this dispute?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:00:50.3207435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1783E59P270C708484", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26870, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 561.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 561.0, "ID": 26870, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Baillie, Jackie", "ID": 1783, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumbarton" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Jackie Baillie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Communities (Jackie Baillie): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 565.0, "ContributionID": 708484, "EditedText": "In my speech, I want to draw attention to the importance of the voluntary sector in Scotland today, to highlight some important measures that we have already put in place to help strengthen its role and to outline where we intend to go from here. The voluntary sector has a long and proud tradition in Scotland. More than 50 per cent of the adult population has had some involvement in volunteering, and 25 per cent of the population volunteers on a regular basis. That is a powerful indicator of the Scottish people's commitment to helping others in their communities. There are more than 44,000 voluntary organisations, 27,000 of which are registered as charities. The sector has an annual income of more than £1.8 billion a year, which represents 3 per cent of Scotland's gross domestic product. It provides 100,000 jobs—4.5 per cent of the total number of jobs in Scotland. However, the spread across Scotland is not even, and we are examining that. Rural areas have the highest number of voluntary organisations per head of population, whereas the older industrial areas have the lowest. The role of voluntary groups and volunteers has enormous potential to help us to achieve our shared goals of promoting community development and active citizenship. Our challenge is to build on that foundation. I want to say a little about the policy context in which we are working. Our programme for government, \"Making it work together\", recognises the key role that the voluntary sector plays in tackling poverty and in regenerating communities. However, the sector's importance goes far wider than that. With their diversity and strong base in disadvantaged communities, voluntary organisations are well placed to support a whole range of polices aimed at improving the lives and opportunities of ordinary people in Scotland. Two principal policy aims will drive our agenda. First, recognising and acknowledging the role of the sector in the implementation of policy objectives, the Scottish Executive will develop a productive relationship that accurately reflects the needs of both parties. Secondly, strategic decisions on support for the sector will focus on the fact that volunteering and the voluntary sector are at the heart of community development—one of our key emerging priorities. The specific objectives that flow from those aims are to strengthen the infrastructure of the voluntary sector and of volunteering as a priority, and to develop the existing role of the voluntary sector across a wide range of the Executive's policy areas, including community care, child care services, housing, employment, criminal justice, rural policy and health. We will also maximise the part that the voluntary sector plays in our social inclusion and regeneration policies. We have already taken specific steps to support our commitment to the voluntary sector. First, we have committed ourselves to promoting a new way of working. There are already close links between Government and the voluntary sector, but we mean to build them into a close working partnership between the two sectors for the future. The foundations have already been laid with the Scottish compact, which was launched in October 1998. The Scottish Executive wants to give that a fresh impetus; later in the autumn, we will ask the Parliament to endorse the compact so that we can send out a clear signal of its commitment to work in partnership with the voluntary sector. Secondly, within Government we are giving a much clearer direction to our work with the voluntary sector. We have made important changes in the way in which the Scottish Executive is structured. The voluntary issues unit will in future have a far more strategic role. It has been located in the centre of the Administration, where it is well placed to reach right across the Executive. It will work to raise the profile of voluntary issues in discussions about Scottish policy. That is what the voluntary sector has campaigned for, and that is what we have delivered. The Executive has acknowledged the crucial role that the sector can play in both the development of policy and the delivery of responsive services. Thirdly, we mean to create a stable infrastructure to support voluntary and community action at all levels. The Government has committed £1 million to support the infrastructure for volunteering and we are creating a network of local volunteering development agencies. More than 92 per cent of the population of Scotland already has access to a local volunteering development agency and we have provided the funds to create an agency in each local authority area by March 2000. We are also addressing the problems of the uneven spread of the voluntary sector across Scotland, which I mentioned. Last month, we announced a review of councils for voluntary service. That review will consider how the network might contribute to building the voluntary capacity throughout Scotland in relation to the priorities that I outlined. I know that funding is a continuing concern for many voluntary groups. The Scottish Executive provides a substantial amount—more than £283 million—to national voluntary organisations and to the infrastructure bodies that support local groups. In that way, the Government complements the work being done at community level by local authorities. The Executive recognises the need not only to provide the resources but to have a funding strategy in place that promotes future stability. It is for that reason that we intend to work with the voluntary sector to prepare a code of good practice on funding. That will form the basis of a more strategic and co-ordinated approach within the Executive.", "EditedTextHTML": "In my speech, I want to draw attention to the importance of the voluntary sector in Scotland today, to highlight some important measures that we have already put in place to help strengthen its role and to outline where we intend to go from here.

The voluntary sector has a long and proud tradition in Scotland. More than 50 per cent of the adult population has had some involvement in volunteering, and 25 per cent of the population volunteers on a regular basis. That is a powerful indicator of the Scottish people's commitment to helping others in their communities.

There are more than 44,000 voluntary organisations, 27,000 of which are registered as charities. The sector has an annual income of more than £1.8 billion a year, which represents 3 per cent of Scotland's gross domestic product. It provides 100,000 jobs—4.5 per cent of the total number of jobs in Scotland. However, the spread across Scotland is not even, and we are examining that. Rural areas have the highest number of voluntary organisations per head of population, whereas the older industrial areas have the lowest.

The role of voluntary groups and volunteers has enormous potential to help us to achieve our shared goals of promoting community development and active citizenship. Our challenge is to build on that foundation.

I want to say a little about the policy context in which we are working. Our programme for government, \"Making it work together\", recognises the key role that the voluntary sector plays in tackling poverty and in regenerating communities. However, the sector's importance goes far wider than that. With their diversity and strong base in disadvantaged communities, voluntary organisations are well placed to support a whole range of polices aimed at improving the lives and opportunities of ordinary people in Scotland.

Two principal policy aims will drive our agenda. First, recognising and acknowledging the role of the sector in the implementation of policy objectives, the Scottish Executive will develop a productive relationship that accurately reflects the needs of both parties. Secondly, strategic decisions on support for the sector will focus on the fact that volunteering and the voluntary sector are at the heart of community development—one of our key emerging priorities.

The specific objectives that flow from those aims are to strengthen the infrastructure of the voluntary sector and of volunteering as a priority, and to develop the existing role of the voluntary sector across a wide range of the Executive's policy areas, including community care, child care services, housing, employment, criminal justice, rural policy and health. We will also maximise the part that the voluntary sector plays in our social inclusion and regeneration policies.

We have already taken specific steps to support our commitment to the voluntary sector. First, we have committed ourselves to promoting a new way of working. There are already close links between Government and the voluntary sector, but we mean to build them into a close working partnership between the two sectors for the future. The foundations have already been laid with the Scottish compact, which was launched in October 1998. The Scottish Executive wants to give that a fresh impetus; later in the autumn, we will ask the Parliament to endorse the compact so that we can send out a clear signal of its commitment to work in partnership with the voluntary sector.

Secondly, within Government we are giving a much clearer direction to our work with the voluntary sector. We have made important changes in the way in which the Scottish Executive is structured. The voluntary issues unit will in future have a far more strategic role. It has been located in the centre of the Administration, where it is well placed to reach right across the Executive. It will work to raise the profile of voluntary issues in discussions about Scottish policy. That is what the voluntary sector has campaigned for, and that is what we have delivered. The Executive has acknowledged the crucial role that the sector can play in both the development of policy and the delivery of responsive services.

Thirdly, we mean to create a stable infrastructure to support voluntary and community action at all levels. The Government has committed £1 million to support the infrastructure for volunteering and we are creating a network of local volunteering development agencies. More than 92 per cent of the population of Scotland already has access to a local volunteering development agency and we have provided the funds to create an agency in each local authority area by March 2000.

We are also addressing the problems of the uneven spread of the voluntary sector across Scotland, which I mentioned. Last month, we

announced a review of councils for voluntary service. That review will consider how the network might contribute to building the voluntary capacity throughout Scotland in relation to the priorities that I outlined.

I know that funding is a continuing concern for many voluntary groups. The Scottish Executive provides a substantial amount—more than £283 million—to national voluntary organisations and to the infrastructure bodies that support local groups. In that way, the Government complements the work being done at community level by local authorities.

The Executive recognises the need not only to provide the resources but to have a funding strategy in place that promotes future stability. It is for that reason that we intend to work with the voluntary sector to prepare a code of good practice on funding. That will form the basis of a more strategic and co-ordinated approach within the Executive.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:25:39.4616009+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1783E59P270C708486", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Sep 1999", "ID": 4180 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Voluntary Sector", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26870, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 561.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 561.0, "ID": 26870, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Baillie, Jackie", "ID": 1783, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumbarton" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Jackie Baillie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Jackie Baillie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 569.0, "ContributionID": 708486, "EditedText": "I can assure the member that we will be working closely with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities to deliver that. A number of councils lead the way in good practice. The Executive will also work with other major funders, such as local councils and the National Lottery Charities Board, to provide a more stable funding framework. We are committed to undertaking a comprehensive review of charity law to reform existing legislation and create a framework that is fit for the 21st century. We have a number of key strands already in place to support our commitment to the sector. In addition, I have recently made announcements aimed at boosting two new programmes for the voluntary sector. The first is called the giving age. In Scotland, the initiative is being taken forward by the Scottish giving age working group which is preparing a strategy that will be published next year. The strategy will have community empowerment as both its underlying philosophy and its ultimate aim. I have announced more than £250,000 of new money to support that initiative. The second new programme is millennium volunteers, which sets out to encourage young people aged between 16 and 25 to develop their personal skills in a way that will result in lasting benefit to their communities. I was pleased to announce more than £400,000 of grants for new millennium volunteer projects earlier this month. I said that we wanted the voluntary sector to have a central role in our policies for community action and active citizenship. Both those new programmes promote that aim. I believe that, in Scotland, policy makers are at last recognising the key role that communities can and should play in shaping the delivery of their services and in building community capacity to determine and tackle local priorities. Many policies have adopted a much clearer focus on communities. They include: social inclusion partnerships; the national strategy of tenant participation; communities that care; initiatives at the edge; and the \"Improving Health\" white paper. The list is endless and all the policies have active communities at their core. The initiatives demonstrate the potential of the voluntary sector and volunteering in its widest sense to boost efforts to put active citizenship at the centre of policy development. In considering the role of the voluntary sector, we too often assume that its contribution is limited to the sphere of social policy. The evidence is growing that the sector makes a significant impact in the economic field, too. I have already referred to the 100,000 jobs that the third sector provides, but I have not yet said that the sector enjoys the fastest job growth of any sector in the European economy. Work done in the Highlands and Islands suggests that the social economy accounts for an annual income of more than £200 million. That represents a significant contribution to sustaining the economic life of those rural communities. A 1997 study into employment in lowland Scotland found that total paid employment in the sector was roughly equal to that in the Scottish electronics industry, one of our main growth sectors. There are more social economy jobs in Drumchapel than there is employment provided by the Great Western retail park. When we look at the future potential of the voluntary sector, it is crucial that we recognise and support the role that it increasingly plays in the social economy as a direct contributor to our economic prosperity. The Scottish Executive has made it clear that it values the role of the voluntary sector. We will bring forward the compact to promote partnership working, give a commitment to a fairer funding framework and guarantee the sector's independence to speak out. We will build a stronger infrastructure and involve it directly in policy making. In the past, the relationship between Government and the sector has often been unequal but, with these initiatives, we are redefining that relationship. The Scottish Executive is firmly committed to working in partnership with the voluntary sector. I look forward to working with the Parliament and with the Social Inclusion, Housing and the Voluntary Sector Committee to promote policies designed to help voluntary organisations flourish in Scotland in the 21st century. I move,That the Parliament welcomes the Scottish Executive's recognition of the important role of the voluntary sector in Scottish society through the contribution it makes to economic prosperity, promoting social inclusion and encouraging active citizenship; endorses the Executive's commitment to create a stable infrastructure in which the voluntary sector can flourish, and welcomes the firm intention to work in partnership with the sector in delivering the Programme for Government.", "EditedTextHTML": "I can assure the member that we will be working closely with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities to deliver that. A number of councils lead the way in good practice.

The Executive will also work with other major funders, such as local councils and the National Lottery Charities Board, to provide a more stable funding framework. We are committed to undertaking a comprehensive review of charity law to reform existing legislation and create a framework that is fit for the 21st century.

We have a number of key strands already in place to support our commitment to the sector. In addition, I have recently made announcements aimed at boosting two new programmes for the voluntary sector. The first is called the giving age. In Scotland, the initiative is being taken forward by the Scottish giving age working group which is preparing a strategy that will be published next year. The strategy will have community empowerment as both its underlying philosophy and its ultimate aim. I have announced more than £250,000 of new money to support that initiative.

The second new programme is millennium volunteers, which sets out to encourage young people aged between 16 and 25 to develop their personal skills in a way that will result in lasting benefit to their communities. I was pleased to announce more than £400,000 of grants for new millennium volunteer projects earlier this month.

I said that we wanted the voluntary sector to have a central role in our policies for community action and active citizenship. Both those new programmes promote that aim.

I believe that, in Scotland, policy makers are at last recognising the key role that communities can and should play in shaping the delivery of their services and in building community capacity to determine and tackle local priorities.

Many policies have adopted a much clearer focus on communities. They include: social inclusion partnerships; the national strategy of tenant participation; communities that care; initiatives at the edge; and the \"Improving Health\" white paper. The list is endless and all the policies have active communities at their core. The initiatives demonstrate the potential of the voluntary sector and volunteering in its widest sense to boost efforts to put active citizenship at the centre of policy development.

In considering the role of the voluntary sector, we too often assume that its contribution is limited to the sphere of social policy. The evidence is growing that the sector makes a significant impact in the economic field, too. I have already referred to the 100,000 jobs that the third sector provides, but I have not yet said that the sector enjoys the fastest job growth of any sector in the European economy. Work done in the Highlands and Islands suggests that the social economy accounts for an annual income of more than £200 million. That represents a significant contribution to sustaining the economic life of those rural communities.

A 1997 study into employment in lowland Scotland found that total paid employment in the sector was roughly equal to that in the Scottish electronics industry, one of our main growth sectors. There are more social economy jobs in Drumchapel than there is employment provided by the Great Western retail park. When we look at the future potential of the voluntary sector, it is crucial that we recognise and support the role that it increasingly plays in the social economy as a direct contributor to our economic prosperity.

The Scottish Executive has made it clear that it values the role of the voluntary sector. We will bring forward the compact to promote partnership working, give a commitment to a fairer funding framework and guarantee the sector's independence to speak out. We will build a stronger infrastructure and involve it directly in policy making. In the past, the relationship between Government and the sector has often been unequal but, with these initiatives, we are redefining that relationship.

The Scottish Executive is firmly committed to working in partnership with the voluntary sector. I

look forward to working with the Parliament and with the Social Inclusion, Housing and the Voluntary Sector Committee to promote policies designed to help voluntary organisations flourish in Scotland in the 21st century.

I move,

That the Parliament welcomes the Scottish Executive's recognition of the important role of the voluntary sector in Scottish society through the contribution it makes to economic prosperity, promoting social inclusion and encouraging active citizenship; endorses the Executive's commitment to create a stable infrastructure in which the voluntary sector can flourish, and welcomes the firm intention to work in partnership with the sector in delivering the Programme for Government.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:25:39.4616009+00:00" }, { "ID": "C708179", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26840, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 252.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 252.0, "ID": 26840, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 260.0, "ContributionID": 708179, "EditedText": "FOR Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)AGAINST Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)

AGAINST

Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4514842+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708182", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26840, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 252.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 252.0, "ID": 26840, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 264.0, "ContributionID": 708182, "EditedText": "The second question therefore is, that motion S1M-160, in the name of Mr Alasdair Morrison, be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "The second question therefore is, that motion S1M-160, in the name of

Mr Alasdair Morrison, be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4514842+00:00" }, { "ID": "C708188", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26840, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 252.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 252.0, "ID": 26840, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 272.0, "ContributionID": 708188, "EditedText": "The Food Protection (Emergency Prohibitions) (Amnesic Shellfish Poisoning) (Orkney) (No. 2) (Scotland) Order 1999 (SSI 1999/42)", "EditedTextHTML": "The Food Protection (Emergency Prohibitions) (Amnesic Shellfish Poisoning) (Orkney) (No. 2) (Scotland) Order 1999 (SSI 1999/42)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4514842+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1823E145P193C708196", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Stobhill Hospital", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26841, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 274.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 274.0, "ID": 26841, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jamieson, Margaret", "ID": 1823, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Kilmarnock and Loudoun" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Jamieson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Margaret Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 287.0, "ContributionID": 708196, "EditedText": "Is Dorothy-Grace Elder suggesting that there should be some other form of establishment, where individuals who have committed crimes should be?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is Dorothy-Grace Elder suggesting that there should be some other form of establishment, where individuals who have committed crimes should be?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4514842+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1762E216P508C708197", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Stobhill Hospital", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26841, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 274.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 274.0, "ID": 26841, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Elder, Dorothy-Grace", "ID": 1762, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 289.0, "ContributionID": 708197, "EditedText": "I am talking about crimes against children. Most of those people are sent to Peterhead or Carstairs. The community has every right to be fearful. I have been involved in tracking down paedophiles. Those men are the most dangerous in the community to children. We cannot be politically correct at the expense of risking children.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am talking about crimes against children. Most of those people are sent to Peterhead or Carstairs. The community has every right to be fearful. I have been involved in tracking down paedophiles. Those men are the most dangerous in the community to children. We cannot be politically correct at the expense of risking children.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4514842+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2159E115P214C708193", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Stobhill Hospital", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26841, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 274.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 274.0, "ID": 26841, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Martin, Paul", "ID": 2159, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Springburn" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Paul Martin", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Paul Martin (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 280.0, "ContributionID": 708193, "EditedText": "I would like to acknowledge the fact that I am able to raise this issue in the Scottish Parliament. The Parliament is beginning to show how effective it can be for local communities; the fact that we have been able raise this issue proves that. I can assure members that the future of Stobhill hospital is a local issue—that has been made clear by the large amount of correspondence and telephone inquiries I have received. It is important that the Parliament is aware of the reasons for my objection to proposals to build a secure unit on a greenfield site of approximately 10 acres adjacent to the hospital. The site that is earmarked for the secure unit is where we wanted an ambulatory care and diagnostic unit. The ACAD unit site is now a 2 acre hospital car park. That is one of the reasons for my concern. We want the ACAD unit to develop into a state-of-the-art facility that will be a benchmark for other facilities in the UK. It would receive more than a third of a million visits every year. The facility needs an opportunity to develop. The concern in my constituency is that the facility will not have the opportunity to develop if it is overshadowed by the proposal to build a secure unit. I have been accused of being a NIMBY member of the Scottish Parliament, but I am not alone in my view. The medical staff association and the widely respected Dr Frank Dunn recognise the importance of the secure unit, but say that they are unable to support the present proposal because it would seriously jeopardise the functioning, development and ultimate success of the ACAD unit. That is the view of the professionals—some with as many as 20 years' experience—at the hospital. It is important that we listen to their views and to the views of patients. I am concerned that those views have not been taken seriously. One would expect the first secure unit in Scotland to be the subject of extensive consultation, but there has been no formal consultation on the proposal. The only consultation with the local community will be through the statutory obligation that results from the planning process. That reeks of arrogance and shows contempt for the community and the medical staff. At a recent meeting, the chief executive said that if the community had been consulted, it would have opposed the secure unit. What right do highly paid officials have to tell me that they know what the community will say? Do they have a monopoly on knowledge of how a community will react to proposals? Of course the community will have a point of view, but is not it important to listen to the community and to learn from that point of view, rather than take a decision and then speak to the community? Some of the public meetings have been constructive. It is disappointing that decisions were made beforehand. We should discuss local communities' concerns with those communities. I am sure that the minister will agree that consultation is crucial to the health service and that we should be taking part in consultation. Government policy is clear—hospital policy should be clinically driven. That view is shared by the former health minister, Sam Galbraith. In March 1998, he told the Kirkintilloch, Bishopbriggs & Springburn Herald that changes at Stobhill hospital should be clinically driven and made after consultation with doctors. I will repeat the question that I have asked on a number of occasions: why were medical staff not consulted on the revised proposals for building a secure unit at Stobhill hospital when there was such clear guidance from the then health minister that medical staff should be consulted on clinical matters? There is a great myth that local people are NIMBYs. The same accusation has been levelled at me. Some local people might be concerned about any proposal, such as for a new supermarket, that affects the community, but they are entitled to hold and express their opinions. Our great concern about this proposal is that we have not had an opportunity to air our views. I have had a helpful meeting with the Minister for Health and Community Care, but the Parliament has to take action to make a difference to local people's lives. There are no representatives from the local community on the local NHS trust, which is an issue that needs to be dealt with. I want to be constructive in this debate and raise some points to which I want the minister to respond today. This Parliament should not be a talking shop—we need to take prominent action. First, the proposal should be withdrawn from the planning process to allow for real and meaningful consultation with the local community and the medical staff. I reiterate that the medical staff and the patients are the people who matter. If we want to make progress in hospital care, we need to include those people in discussions about the future of their hospital. There should be a comprehensive study into the effectiveness of a 2 acre ACAD unit. This is the future of hospital care. Will the unit be given a chance to develop if it is built on a 2 acre car park site where the secure unit might inhibit and overshadow it? There should also be a comprehensive study of other possible sites for the secure unit. I understand from documents that I have received from the health board that 14 sites were appraised. I can exclusively reveal that some of those sites were being sold when they were being appraised. I want proper appraisals of those sites to be carried out. Organisations such as City of Glasgow Council and East Dunbartonshire Council, which were involved in the appraisal process, were not clear that they were appraising sites for a secure unit, but thought that they were being asked for an opinion on the sites. They did not realise that their opinion counted towards a final decision. There is no clear medical evidence that a secure unit has to be placed next to a general hospital. That point has to be clinically proven before we place such a facility next to Stobhill hospital. In question time a couple of weeks ago, I asked the minister to meet the medical staff association in the hospital. Unfortunately, she was not able to do that, but her visit to the hospital on Monday was much appreciated. However, I ask her again to meet the people who matter, such as representatives from the medical staff association, to discuss their concerns about the proposed secure unit. They are concerned that, as Dr Frank Dunn said, the secure unit will inhibit the ACAD unit from developing into a unit that will be able to serve the Glasgow North area. The minister should also ensure that Glasgow North residents are included on the board of North Glasgow University Hospitals NHS Trust. That serious flaw in the new merger of the hospital trusts needs to be addressed. Local trust officials have advised me that a place on the trust board has been available for some time now and they have asked me to give them some names. If trusts are serious about having local representation, they should reach out to local communities. They should not have to use me to reach out to local communities. They will make direct links with the community if they are serious about community consultation and representation. I will finish now as I understand that a number of members want to speak. I live next to Stobhill hospital. I was born there, my wife was born there and almost all my family was born there. We feel a great link to Stobhill hospital. I am not taking this view in a NIMBY way. The leader of East Dunbartonshire Council is also opposed to the proposal. Some of his constituents stay 10 to 15 miles away from the facility. They are concerned about the future of the hospital and that the secure unit will inhibit any possible development of it. Our case is about the future of the hospital and how it will be affected by the proposal to build a secure unit.", "EditedTextHTML": "I would like to acknowledge the fact that I am able to raise this issue in the Scottish Parliament. The Parliament is beginning to show how effective it can be for local communities; the fact that we have been able raise this issue proves that.

I can assure members that the future of Stobhill hospital is a local issue—that has been made clear by the large amount of correspondence and telephone inquiries I have received. It is important that the Parliament is aware of the reasons for my objection to proposals to build a secure unit on a greenfield site of approximately 10 acres adjacent to the hospital.

The site that is earmarked for the secure unit is where we wanted an ambulatory care and diagnostic unit. The ACAD unit site is now a 2 acre hospital car park. That is one of the reasons for my concern. We want the ACAD unit to develop into a state-of-the-art facility that will be a benchmark for other facilities in the UK. It would receive more than a third of a million visits every year. The facility needs an opportunity to develop.

The concern in my constituency is that the facility will not have the opportunity to develop if it is overshadowed by the proposal to build a secure unit. I have been accused of being a NIMBY member of the Scottish Parliament, but I am not alone in my view.

The medical staff association and the widely respected Dr Frank Dunn recognise the importance of the secure unit, but say that they are unable to support the present proposal because it would seriously jeopardise the functioning, development and ultimate success of the ACAD unit. That is the view of the professionals—some with as many as 20 years' experience—at the hospital. It is important that we listen to their views and to the views of patients. I

am concerned that those views have not been taken seriously.

One would expect the first secure unit in Scotland to be the subject of extensive consultation, but there has been no formal consultation on the proposal. The only consultation with the local community will be through the statutory obligation that results from the planning process. That reeks of arrogance and shows contempt for the community and the medical staff.

At a recent meeting, the chief executive said that if the community had been consulted, it would have opposed the secure unit. What right do highly paid officials have to tell me that they know what the community will say? Do they have a monopoly on knowledge of how a community will react to proposals?

Of course the community will have a point of view, but is not it important to listen to the community and to learn from that point of view, rather than take a decision and then speak to the community?

Some of the public meetings have been constructive. It is disappointing that decisions were made beforehand. We should discuss local communities' concerns with those communities. I am sure that the minister will agree that consultation is crucial to the health service and that we should be taking part in consultation.

Government policy is clear—hospital policy should be clinically driven. That view is shared by the former health minister, Sam Galbraith. In March 1998, he told the Kirkintilloch, Bishopbriggs & Springburn Herald that changes at Stobhill hospital should be clinically driven and made after consultation with doctors.

I will repeat the question that I have asked on a number of occasions: why were medical staff not consulted on the revised proposals for building a secure unit at Stobhill hospital when there was such clear guidance from the then health minister that medical staff should be consulted on clinical matters?

There is a great myth that local people are NIMBYs. The same accusation has been levelled at me. Some local people might be concerned about any proposal, such as for a new supermarket, that affects the community, but they are entitled to hold and express their opinions. Our great concern about this proposal is that we have not had an opportunity to air our views.

I have had a helpful meeting with the Minister for Health and Community Care, but the Parliament has to take action to make a difference to local people's lives. There are no representatives from the local community on the local NHS trust, which is an issue that needs to be dealt with.

I want to be constructive in this debate and raise some points to which I want the minister to respond today. This Parliament should not be a talking shop—we need to take prominent action.

First, the proposal should be withdrawn from the planning process to allow for real and meaningful consultation with the local community and the medical staff. I reiterate that the medical staff and the patients are the people who matter. If we want to make progress in hospital care, we need to include those people in discussions about the future of their hospital.

There should be a comprehensive study into the effectiveness of a 2 acre ACAD unit. This is the future of hospital care. Will the unit be given a chance to develop if it is built on a 2 acre car park site where the secure unit might inhibit and overshadow it?

There should also be a comprehensive study of other possible sites for the secure unit. I understand from documents that I have received from the health board that 14 sites were appraised. I can exclusively reveal that some of those sites were being sold when they were being appraised. I want proper appraisals of those sites to be carried out. Organisations such as City of Glasgow Council and East Dunbartonshire Council, which were involved in the appraisal process, were not clear that they were appraising sites for a secure unit, but thought that they were being asked for an opinion on the sites. They did not realise that their opinion counted towards a final decision.

There is no clear medical evidence that a secure unit has to be placed next to a general hospital. That point has to be clinically proven before we place such a facility next to Stobhill hospital.

In question time a couple of weeks ago, I asked the minister to meet the medical staff association in the hospital. Unfortunately, she was not able to do that, but her visit to the hospital on Monday was much appreciated. However, I ask her again to meet the people who matter, such as representatives from the medical staff association, to discuss their concerns about the proposed secure unit. They are concerned that, as Dr Frank Dunn said, the secure unit will inhibit the ACAD unit from developing into a unit that will be able to serve the Glasgow North area.

The minister should also ensure that Glasgow North residents are included on the board of North Glasgow University Hospitals NHS Trust. That serious flaw in the new merger of the hospital trusts needs to be addressed. Local trust officials have advised me that a place on the trust board has been available for some time now and they have asked me to give them some names.

If trusts are serious about having local representation, they should reach out to local communities. They should not have to use me to reach out to local communities. They will make direct links with the community if they are serious about community consultation and representation.

I will finish now as I understand that a number of members want to speak. I live next to Stobhill hospital. I was born there, my wife was born there and almost all my family was born there. We feel a great link to Stobhill hospital. I am not taking this view in a NIMBY way. The leader of East Dunbartonshire Council is also opposed to the proposal. Some of his constituents stay 10 to 15 miles away from the facility. They are concerned about the future of the hospital and that the secure unit will inhibit any possible development of it. Our case is about the future of the hospital and how it will be affected by the proposal to build a secure unit.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4514842+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1762E216P508C708195", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Stobhill Hospital", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26841, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 274.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 274.0, "ID": 26841, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Elder, Dorothy-Grace", "ID": 1762, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 285.0, "ContributionID": 708195, "EditedText": "I will be brief, because I have an urgent appointment. I back everything that Mr Martin has said about his fight. I advise him—as a definite non-NIMBY myself—that neither he nor the people who live close to Stobhill hospital should feel embarrassed if they have been forced to feel like NIMBYs. The best of people can be converted into NIMBYs if they are not consulted. The lack of consultation has been shocking. I am the only Glasgow member on the Health and Community Care Committee—I will try my best to raise this issue there. I am glad that the Minister for Health and Community Care, and her deputy, have remained for this debate. If the unit is to contain paedophiles, that will be an unsuitable type of client to be in that part of Glasgow.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will be brief, because I have an urgent appointment.

I back everything that Mr Martin has said about his fight. I advise him—as a definite non-NIMBY myself—that neither he nor the people who live close to Stobhill hospital should feel embarrassed if they have been forced to feel like NIMBYs. The best of people can be converted into NIMBYs if they are not consulted. The lack of consultation has been shocking.

I am the only Glasgow member on the Health and Community Care Committee—I will try my best to raise this issue there. I am glad that the Minister for Health and Community Care, and her deputy, have remained for this debate. If the unit is to contain paedophiles, that will be an unsuitable type of client to be in that part of Glasgow.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4514842+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C708198", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Stobhill Hospital", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26841, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 274.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 274.0, "ID": 26841, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Richard Simpson (Ochil) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 291.0, "ContributionID": 708198, "EditedText": "It is a secure unit.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is a secure unit.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4514842+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1751E163P286C708204", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Stobhill Hospital", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26841, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 274.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 274.0, "ID": 26841, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Craigie, Cathie", "ID": 1751, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Cumbernauld and Kilsyth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Cathie Craigie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Cathie Craigie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 303.0, "ContributionID": 708204, "EditedText": "Will Dorothy-Grace Elder stop blowing the issue out of proportion by making comments that will frighten the community, and address the debate today. We are here to discuss Stobhill hospital, not to introduce scaremongering tactics.", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Dorothy-Grace Elder stop blowing the issue out of proportion by making comments that will frighten the community, and address the debate today. We are here to discuss Stobhill hospital, not to introduce scaremongering tactics.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4514842+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1775E171P452C708212", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Stobhill Hospital", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26841, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 274.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 274.0, "ID": 26841, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeod, Fiona", "ID": 1775, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona McLeod", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona McLeod: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 322.0, "ContributionID": 708212, "EditedText": "I have a point of order before I begin. At the domestic violence debate, the time was extended by half an hour.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have a point of order before I begin. At the domestic violence debate, the time was extended by half an hour.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4514842+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1775E171P452C708209", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Stobhill Hospital", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26841, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 274.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 274.0, "ID": 26841, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeod, Fiona", "ID": 1775, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona McLeod", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona McLeod (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 316.0, "ContributionID": 708209, "EditedText": "I begin by commending—", "EditedTextHTML": "I begin by commending—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708211", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Stobhill Hospital", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26841, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 274.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 274.0, "ID": 26841, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 320.0, "ContributionID": 708211, "EditedText": "This is a members' debate and, as time is limited to half an hour, I am not prepared to accept a motion to extend it. We have had a good debate, but there is one minute left for a few quick points from Fiona McLeod.", "EditedTextHTML": "This is a members' debate and, as time is limited to half an hour, I am not prepared to accept a motion to extend it. We have had a good debate, but there is one minute left for a few quick points from Fiona McLeod.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C708220", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Stobhill Hospital", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26841, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 274.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 274.0, "ID": 26841, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 339.0, "ContributionID": 708220, "EditedText": "I do not have time, I am sorry.That is the backdrop to this local debate. As we address issues of this nature it is important that this chamber, and the Executive in particular, focuses on the strategic context within which we want local development to take place. It is then for local bodies to ensure that that development takes place in line with those strategic priorities. Paul Martin raised the matter of representation on the trust. I am keen to ensure that trusts are as representative as possible. The North Glasgow University Hospitals NHS Trust has two vacancies at the moment, and I would welcome applications from local representatives. I encourage members to encourage people in their communities to apply for those positions and to participate in the running of trusts. I can give an assurance that those appointments will be made as openly and as fairly as possible. It is, however, important that we get the best people possible involved in local trusts and local boards, and that must be decided on the basis of who they are, not where they are from. I am conscious, Presiding Officer, that many other issues were raised in this debate. You are looking at me to wind up and I do not have time to deal with them. I hope that we will have an opportunity to return to some of the broader issues raised in this debate and to have a discussion about mental illness. We have touched on mental illness, but we have not dealt with it fully. The Parliament, health boards and trusts have difficult jobs to do and must make difficult decisions along the way. I hope that we can do that in open discussion and for the benefit of people in local communities across Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not have time, I am sorry.

That is the backdrop to this local debate. As we address issues of this nature it is important that this chamber, and the Executive in particular, focuses on the strategic context within which we want local development to take place. It is then for local bodies to ensure that that development takes place in line with those strategic priorities.

Paul Martin raised the matter of representation on the trust. I am keen to ensure that trusts are as representative as possible. The North Glasgow University Hospitals NHS Trust has two vacancies at the moment, and I would welcome applications from local representatives. I encourage members to encourage people in their communities to apply for those positions and to participate in the running of trusts. I can give an assurance that those appointments will be made as openly and as fairly as possible. It is, however, important that we get the best people possible involved in local trusts and local boards, and that must be decided on the basis of who they are, not where they are from.

I am conscious, Presiding Officer, that many other issues were raised in this debate. You are looking at me to wind up and I do not have time to deal with them. I hope that we will have an opportunity to return to some of the broader issues raised in this debate and to have a discussion about mental illness. We have touched on mental illness, but we have not dealt with it fully. The Parliament, health boards and trusts have difficult jobs to do and must make difficult decisions along the way. I hope that we can do that in open discussion and for the benefit of people in local communities across Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C708060", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Teachers' Pay", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26836, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26836, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Children and Education (Mr Sam Galbraith): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 7.0, "ContributionID": 708060, "EditedText": "I would like to set out for Parliament the decision that I have taken relating to future professional conditions of teachers and give further details of the independent inquiry that I am establishing. My first priority is the quality of education received by our children. I recognise that that priority is shared by teachers. I have paid tribute to the outstanding quality and commitment of teachers and I do so again. It is one of my objectives to raise the professional status of teachers. There is a need for a fresh look at conditions of employment as part of a broader approach to restore teachers to their proper place in society. In order to achieve that, teachers must be willing to accept a degree of change. It is reasonable to expect similar flexibility and openness to change to that which has been shown by other professions and other local authority groups. Local authority employers have recognised for some time the need for change in teachers' conditions. Many in the teaching profession have acknowledged that the present approach to hours of work and duties is a barrier to change and improvement. Despite this, the arrangements for discussing these issues have produced stagnation rather than progress. Negotiations designed to lead to change failed in the early 1990s. Discussions on possible changes began again with the millennium review set up under the Scottish Joint Negotiating Committee for Teaching Staff in School Education in May 1997. The present negotiations started after the millennium review reported in September 1998. With the Educational Institute of Scotland ballot result announced last Friday the negotiations have reached an impasse. I must emphasise that this offer did not come from the Executive. We did not formulate the offer; we did not put it on the table. It was the product of discussions between the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities and the teaching unions. I am here neither to support it nor to reject it. It has been suggested that more money would automatically lead to a solution. I do not believe that money is the real issue. The local authority offer would have given the 18,000 teachers at the top of the unpromoted scale an increase of 17.3 per cent by 1 April 2001. The average increase across all grades would have been 14 per cent; no teacher would have got less than 11 per cent. The biggest increases would have come next year, not in 2001. All this is against the background of low inflation; inflation fell to 1.1 per cent in August. Let me emphasise that the Executive was prepared to play its part in helping authorities to fund the settlement. The total cost of the deal would have increased the pay bill by £180 million by 2001-02. Given the level of inflation, there was generous provision for teachers' pay in the financial settlement for local government. However, we had told COSLA that we were prepared to be flexible beyond that to help the authorities. We had guaranteed an additional £8 million to COSLA prior to the last stages of their negotiations to help achieve a settlement. Money was available for the genuine modernisation of teachers' pay and conditions, on top of the additional resources that are already going into our schools. Teachers have voted comprehensively against those proposals. They have every right to do that. My responsibility now is to find another way forward in order to deliver greater professionalism and flexibility, higher standards and better education for our children. Despite two years of discussion, for the second time this decade the current mechanism has failed to deliver a suitable package that is acceptable to teachers and that recognises their professional status and commitment. Clearly, the current arrangements do not work. That is why I have decided that—to break the logjam—I will do two things. The first is to bring forward proposals to remove the statutory basis of the SJNC. That should come as no surprise. I made it clear to both sides at the outset that, should the discussions fail, the SJNC could not continue. It is an archaic piece of bargaining machinery that has demonstrably failed to address the need for change. It is inflexible because its agreements have the force of law and cannot be changed without further agreement. It has also established a wide-ranging remit over matters which properly belong either to local management or, as in the case of class sizes, to this Parliament. I take the view that the laws of the land should be made here in Parliament, not in a negotiating committee. I believe that it is necessary to make this change to allow the proper consideration of terms of employment for the teaching profession. At the same time, I am establishing an independent committee of inquiry. It will be asked to advise on what changes to the structure of teachers' conditions of employment, including pay, are required to meet the needs of the new millennium, and also to recommend a future approach to determining further changes to those conditions of employment. Its remit—a copy of which I have placed in the Scottish Parliament information centre—is wide and will allow all the issues that have arisen in the recent negotiations to be considered objectively on the basis of evidence. I emphasise that I have no preconceived view of what the inquiry should recommend. I expect it to be fair, balanced and impartial. I believe that this is the way to address the very difficult issues that have arisen. I have asked the inquiry to report by May next year so that its conclusions can influence next year's negotiations. However, I consider that it is right that the SJNC is left with the final task of resolving the question of any pay agreement for 1999. That is its responsibility and I call on both sides to work out a realistic approach that will avoid any disruption in the classroom. Finally, I turn to the chairmanship and membership of the inquiry. Today I will place in the information centre details of those who have agreed to serve. The chairman will be Professor Gavin McCrone. He will bring to this inquiry long experience of economics, management and public administration. Although he has considerable university teaching experience, I have deliberately chosen someone who has no involvement in the school system in order to underline the objectivity with which this task should be approached. Members will include a secondary and a primary head teacher, a local authority chief executive, a personnel director from a major business based in Scotland, the chairman of the Scottish School Boards Association and an academic with wide experience of pay and employment issues. One further member with a private sector or professional background will be appointed after discussions with the chairman. The inquiry has access to advice from a director of education and from Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Schools and it will be supported by a well-resourced secretariat. I am confident that with this mix of skills and experience the inquiry will be able to bring fresh thinking to these problems and to recommend solutions that will command general support. It is in everyone's interest to see the inquiry succeed, and I invite this Parliament to wish it well. I commend it to this Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "I would like to set out for Parliament the decision that I have taken relating to future professional conditions of teachers and give further details of the independent inquiry that I am establishing.

My first priority is the quality of education received by our children. I recognise that that priority is shared by teachers. I have paid tribute to the outstanding quality and commitment of teachers and I do so again.

It is one of my objectives to raise the professional status of teachers. There is a need for a fresh look at conditions of employment as part of a broader approach to restore teachers to their proper place in society. In order to achieve that, teachers must be willing to accept a degree of change. It is reasonable to expect similar flexibility and openness to change to that which has been shown by other professions and other local authority groups.

Local authority employers have recognised for some time the need for change in teachers' conditions. Many in the teaching profession have acknowledged that the present approach to hours of work and duties is a barrier to change and improvement. Despite this, the arrangements for discussing these issues have produced stagnation rather than progress.

Negotiations designed to lead to change failed in the early 1990s. Discussions on possible changes began again with the millennium review set up under the Scottish Joint Negotiating Committee for Teaching Staff in School Education in May 1997. The present negotiations started after the millennium review reported in September 1998. With the Educational Institute of Scotland ballot result announced last Friday the negotiations have reached an impasse.

I must emphasise that this offer did not come from the Executive. We did not formulate the offer; we did not put it on the table. It was the product of discussions between the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities and the teaching unions. I am here neither to support it nor to reject it.

It has been suggested that more money would automatically lead to a solution. I do not believe that money is the real issue. The local authority offer would have given the 18,000 teachers at the top of the unpromoted scale an increase of 17.3 per cent by 1 April 2001. The average increase across all grades would have been 14 per cent; no teacher would have got less than 11 per cent. The biggest increases would have come next year, not in 2001. All this is against the background of low inflation; inflation fell to 1.1 per cent in August.

Let me emphasise that the Executive was prepared to play its part in helping authorities to fund the settlement. The total cost of the deal would have increased the pay bill by £180 million by 2001-02. Given the level of inflation, there was generous provision for teachers' pay in the financial settlement for local government. However, we had told COSLA that we were prepared to be flexible beyond that to help the authorities. We had guaranteed an additional £8 million to COSLA prior to the last stages of their negotiations to help achieve a settlement. Money was available for the genuine modernisation of teachers' pay and conditions, on top of the additional resources that are already going into our schools.

Teachers have voted comprehensively against those proposals. They have every right to do that. My responsibility now is to find another way forward in order to deliver greater professionalism and flexibility, higher standards and better education for our children. Despite two years of discussion, for the second time this decade the current mechanism has failed to deliver a suitable package that is acceptable to teachers and that recognises their professional status and commitment. Clearly, the current arrangements do not work.

That is why I have decided that—to break the logjam—I will do two things. The first is to bring forward proposals to remove the statutory basis of the SJNC. That should come as no surprise. I made it clear to both sides at the outset that, should the discussions fail, the SJNC could not continue. It is an archaic piece of bargaining machinery that has demonstrably failed to address the need for change. It is inflexible because its agreements have the force of law and cannot be changed without further agreement. It has also established a wide-ranging remit over matters

which properly belong either to local management or, as in the case of class sizes, to this Parliament. I take the view that the laws of the land should be made here in Parliament, not in a negotiating committee. I believe that it is necessary to make this change to allow the proper consideration of terms of employment for the teaching profession.

At the same time, I am establishing an independent committee of inquiry. It will be asked to advise on what changes to the structure of teachers' conditions of employment, including pay, are required to meet the needs of the new millennium, and also to recommend a future approach to determining further changes to those conditions of employment. Its remit—a copy of which I have placed in the Scottish Parliament information centre—is wide and will allow all the issues that have arisen in the recent negotiations to be considered objectively on the basis of evidence.

I emphasise that I have no preconceived view of what the inquiry should recommend. I expect it to be fair, balanced and impartial. I believe that this is the way to address the very difficult issues that have arisen. I have asked the inquiry to report by May next year so that its conclusions can influence next year's negotiations. However, I consider that it is right that the SJNC is left with the final task of resolving the question of any pay agreement for 1999. That is its responsibility and I call on both sides to work out a realistic approach that will avoid any disruption in the classroom.

Finally, I turn to the chairmanship and membership of the inquiry. Today I will place in the information centre details of those who have agreed to serve.

The chairman will be Professor Gavin McCrone. He will bring to this inquiry long experience of economics, management and public administration. Although he has considerable university teaching experience, I have deliberately chosen someone who has no involvement in the school system in order to underline the objectivity with which this task should be approached.

Members will include a secondary and a primary head teacher, a local authority chief executive, a personnel director from a major business based in Scotland, the chairman of the Scottish School Boards Association and an academic with wide experience of pay and employment issues. One further member with a private sector or professional background will be appointed after discussions with the chairman. The inquiry has access to advice from a director of education and from Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Schools and it will be supported by a well-resourced secretariat.

I am confident that with this mix of skills and experience the inquiry will be able to bring fresh thinking to these problems and to recommend solutions that will command general support. It is in everyone's interest to see the inquiry succeed, and I invite this Parliament to wish it well. I commend it to this Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C708064", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Teachers' Pay", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26836, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26836, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Galbraith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 15.0, "ContributionID": 708064, "EditedText": "I am sorry that Miss Sturgeon was once again unable to show any generosity in her response to my statement. I am also surprised that she objects to the fact that I have brought a statement to this Parliament. I would have thought that that was part of the normal democratic process. I hope that she will become accustomed to the normal process of democracy. She is perfectly entitled, in her own time, to have a debate on this matter, and we would welcome that. She asked why we could not leave all this to the committee on which she sits. This is an extremely complex and difficult matter, which will take up a considerable amount of time and a great deal of expertise. I do not think that it is the role of parliamentary committees to carry out that scrutiny. I was also asked why I abolished the SJNC. It is important to recognise that I am abolishing the statutory basis of the SJNC. The reason I am doing that is that the current system simply has not worked. It is no good saying, \"Well, if the offer had been better, the machinery would have worked.\" The problem with the machinery is that it has never brought an offer that could be acceptable—that would recognise teachers' professionalism and that would allow us to enhance that professionalism. There are all those teachers in Scotland who are doing a great job, working more than their contracted hours, but we do not have a system that allows us to reward them. The SJNC has singularly failed teachers, and I think that it is a good idea to get rid of it.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry that Miss Sturgeon was once again unable to show any generosity in her response to my statement. I am also surprised that she objects to the fact that I have brought a statement to this Parliament. I would have thought that that was part of the normal democratic process. I hope that she will become accustomed to the normal process of democracy. She is perfectly entitled, in her own time, to have a debate on this matter, and we would welcome that.

She asked why we could not leave all this to the committee on which she sits. This is an extremely complex and difficult matter, which will take up a considerable amount of time and a great deal of expertise. I do not think that it is the role of parliamentary committees to carry out that scrutiny.

I was also asked why I abolished the SJNC. It is important to recognise that I am abolishing the statutory basis of the SJNC. The reason I am doing that is that the current system simply has not worked. It is no good saying, \"Well, if the offer had been better, the machinery would have worked.\" The problem with the machinery is that it has never brought an offer that could be acceptable—that would recognise teachers' professionalism and that would allow us to enhance that professionalism. There are all those teachers in Scotland who are doing a great job, working more than their contracted hours, but we do not have a system that allows us to reward them. The SJNC has singularly failed teachers, and I think that it is a good idea to get rid of it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C708068", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Teachers' Pay", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26836, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26836, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Galbraith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 23.0, "ContributionID": 708068, "EditedText": "Miss Sturgeon talked about the money—I wish she would listen to what I say before she writes out the questions that she is going to ask me. I explained the offer in some detail: it is an across-the-board 15 per cent over three years; inflation is currently 1.1 per cent. I am not here to get into the rights and wrongs of it, but is Nicola saying that that is an unreasonable offer? She raised the old chestnut of class sizes. I think class sizes should be decided here and not by the SJNC. I am not here to justify the offer, but one thing Nicola forgot to mention is that part of it, along with the composite class sizes, is that next year the reduction of all classes up to S2 to classes of 30 or less would begin. Nicola either did not know that—so she has not read the offer—or she conveniently forgot it. Either way it shows her in a bad light.", "EditedTextHTML": "Miss Sturgeon talked about the money—I wish she would listen to what I say before she writes out the questions that she is going to ask me. I explained the offer in some detail: it is an across-the-board 15 per cent over three years; inflation is currently 1.1 per cent. I am not here to get into the rights and wrongs of it, but is Nicola saying that that is an unreasonable offer?

She raised the old chestnut of class sizes. I think class sizes should be decided here and not by the SJNC. I am not here to justify the offer, but one thing Nicola forgot to mention is that part of it, along with the composite class sizes, is that next year the reduction of all classes up to S2 to classes of 30 or less would begin. Nicola either did not know that—so she has not read the offer—or she conveniently forgot it. Either way it shows her in a bad light.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708069", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Teachers' Pay", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26836, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26836, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 25.0, "ContributionID": 708069, "EditedText": "As members will have heard, the issue is going to be debated next week. We have only 15 minutes left for short questions and answers.", "EditedTextHTML": "As members will have heard, the issue is going to be debated next week. We have only 15 minutes left for short questions and answers.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708073", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Teachers' Pay", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26836, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26836, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 33.0, "ContributionID": 708073, "EditedText": "Order. We must have a question, Ian.", "EditedTextHTML": "Order. We must have a question, Ian.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2029E47P167C708076", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Teachers' Pay", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26836, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26836, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Henry, Hugh", "ID": 2029, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Hugh Henry", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Hugh Henry (Paisley South) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 39.0, "ContributionID": 708076, "EditedText": "I wish to endorse the minister's hope that there will be a settlement this year, to avoid any disruption to our children's education. Does the minister agree that any settlement under the present system is likely to leave teachers in Scotland worse off than their counterparts elsewhere, and that some method is needed to ensure that the worth of Scottish teachers in our society is properly recognised? Will the minister, in his deliberations on the negotiating committee's eventual recommendations, consider a future for collective bargaining—albeit, as he has said, without a statutory basis—that is available to workers in the public sector?", "EditedTextHTML": "I wish to endorse the minister's hope that there will be a settlement this year, to avoid any disruption to our children's education. Does the minister agree that any settlement under the present system is likely to leave teachers in Scotland worse off than their counterparts elsewhere, and that some method is needed to ensure that the worth of Scottish teachers in our society is properly recognised? Will the minister, in his deliberations on the negotiating committee's eventual recommendations, consider a future for collective bargaining—albeit, as he has said, without a statutory basis—that is available to workers in the public sector?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C708077", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Teachers' Pay", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26836, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26836, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Galbraith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 41.0, "ContributionID": 708077, "EditedText": "I do not prejudge what the negotiating committee may come up with. They might propose a system of collective bargaining. That cannot be on a statutory basis in the common sense: my view is that the laws of this land should be made here and not by a negotiating committee. It is a matter for the SJNC, and I do not want to give it any steer on that line. Hugh Henry is right. The SJNC has allowed teachers to fall behind their English counterparts— its members should think about that.", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not prejudge what the negotiating committee may come up with. They might propose a system of collective bargaining. That cannot be on a statutory basis in the common sense: my view is that the laws of this land should be made here and not by a negotiating committee. It is a matter for the SJNC, and I do not want to give it any steer on that line.

Hugh Henry is right. The SJNC has allowed teachers to fall behind their English counterparts— its members should think about that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1778E91P257C708083", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Teachers' Pay", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26836, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26836, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Eadie, Helen", "ID": 1778, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dunfermline East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Helen Eadie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Helen Eadie (Dunfermline East) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 53.0, "ContributionID": 708083, "EditedText": "I withdraw my question, because Hugh Henry asked it.", "EditedTextHTML": "I withdraw my question, because Hugh Henry asked it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1962E35P56C708089", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Teachers' Pay", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26836, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26836, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mundell, David", "ID": 1962, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Mundell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David Mundell (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 65.0, "ContributionID": 708089, "EditedText": "The minister said that he had no preconceived idea of what the outcome of the inquiry should be, while some dubiety has arisen recently over the outcome of the Cubie inquiry and whether its recommendations will be implemented. Will he give members a guarantee that, whatever the outcome of the inquiry, he will honour it—in particular, if that outcome is in line with or exceeds teachers' current demands?", "EditedTextHTML": "The minister said that he had no preconceived idea of what the outcome of the inquiry should be, while some dubiety has arisen recently over the outcome of the Cubie inquiry and whether its recommendations will be implemented. Will he give members a guarantee that, whatever the outcome of the inquiry, he will honour it—in particular, if that outcome is in line with or exceeds teachers' current demands?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C708092", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Teachers' Pay", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26836, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26836, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Galbraith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 71.0, "ContributionID": 708092, "EditedText": "I agree with Des McNulty's comments. I wish to re-emphasise that I am trying to deliver a system that recognises teachers' professionalism and rewards them for the job that they do. I hope that the committee will recommend solutions that will address that.", "EditedTextHTML": "I agree with Des McNulty's comments. I wish to re-emphasise that I am trying to deliver a system that recognises teachers' professionalism and rewards them for the job that they do. I hope that the committee will recommend solutions that will address that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C708096", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Beef on the Bone", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26837, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 77.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 77.0, "ID": 26837, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 81.0, "ContributionID": 708096, "EditedText": "I am grateful for the opportunity to make this statement to the chamber today. Members will recall that in last week's food safety debate, I touched on the Executive's position on beef on the bone. Since then, there has been considerable press coverage of the issue and we have received requests from a number of members to clarify the Scottish position. We considered it important that we take the opportunity to do just that. The purpose of my statement is to set out, fully and clearly, the Scottish Executive's position and to answer questions that members may have about it. It may be useful for members if, briefly by way of background, I touch on the history of the issue. The beef-on-the-bone ban was introduced on 16 December 1997, following consideration of the issue by the Spongiform Encephalopathy Advisory Committee, or SEAC—the Government's scientific advisers in this field—and advice from the then chief medical officer in England. That advice was fully endorsed by the Scottish CMO and was also accepted by the then Scottish Office ministers. A review of the ban was undertaken by the present CMO in England in January 1999. His advice, again fully endorsed by the Scottish CMO, was that a lifting of the ban at that time would result in the reintroduction of an unacceptable degree of risk that had been eliminated by the imposition of the ban. While progress had been made in the measures to reduce the incidence of BSE and the risk of transmission of the disease to humans, the recommendation was for a continuation of the ban with a review to be undertaken after six months. The outcome of further work by the Wellcome Trust Centre at the University of Oxford was to be part of that further consideration. That was the position in January this year. Since then, the CMOs in Scotland and elsewhere in the UK have continued to keep the position under review and to consider the relevant evidence that has emerged during the intervening period. There is at present a difference of professional view between the English CMO and the CMOs for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland on the evidence available. I refer here to information that has been in the public domain over the past few days: the English CMO advises that the additional risk to human health created by lifting the bone-in beef ban, on visible cuts of beef, is tiny and unquantifiable in any meaningful way. However, he also advises that the retention of the ban on the use of bones for manufacturing food products, including infant foods, would be a sensible and very precautionary approach. I must emphasise to members that all the CMOs are united on that last point—that the ban should not be lifted on manufactured beef products. The Scottish CMO, in common with the Welsh and Northern Irish CMOs, remains concerned that there is insufficient evidence available to underpin a decision to lift the ban on visible cuts of beef now. He has advised specifically that: \"the evidence has not changed sufficiently to justify a lifting of the ban at this time. The history of the BSE epidemic underlines the advisability of continuing to err on the side of caution. The Scottish CMO does not consider that we yet have enough scientific certainty to depart from the precautionary principle and would recommend that the ban stays in place, subject to review on receipt of the definitive estimates from the Oxford Group and to re-appraisal in January 2000 if the ban has not been lifted by that time\". The Oxford group is considering the risks associated with maternal transmission—cow-tocalf infection—of BSE. Updates of its analysis, which informed the earlier review and, indeed, the original ban, will not be available until November. Some of the Scottish CMO's key concerns are as follows. For the whole of 1999, we can expect more than 2,200 BSE cases in Great Britain. Dorsal root ganglia are the tissues that are connected to the spinal cord and have been shown to carry BSE. They are in part removed by deboning, they are known to be highly infective and they contain infectivity before the disease becomes clinically apparent. There is also uncertainty about possible infectivity in bone marrow. There remains uncertainly about the number of cattle acquiring BSE by cow-to-calf maternal transmission: the Oxford study results will assist with that. Finally, there is still considerable uncertainty about the eventual size of the variant CJD epidemic. In short, there is a difference of professional view, but there is no difference in policy outcome. It is well recognised in all parts of the UK that uniform action throughout the UK is highly desirable, and that is what has transpired. Equally, as I have said on many occasions in this chamber and will repeat today, it is recognised that this is a public health matter and that a precautionary approach is essential if we are to safeguard public health in Scotland and elsewhere in the UK. Variant CJD is a particularly distressing disease, and so far it has always been fatal. By the end of June 1999, 43 people had developed vCJD. More cases are awaiting diagnostic confirmation. We cannot ignore or underestimate the human suffering and loss that results from vCJD. Given the long incubation period, it is too early to make confident predictions about the eventual scale of infection: estimates range from a few hundred to several million cases. There is, therefore, considerable uncertainty and no room for complacency in our handling of this issue. The Scottish Executive's policy is clear on this matter: public health must come first, and we must listen to the medical advice that is given to us. We all want to lift the beef-on-the-bone ban, but only when the medical advice indicates that it is safe to do so. The advice is that it is not yet safe to do so, hence the ban will remain for the time being. That is in everyone's interest—producers as well as consumers. We will, of course, continue to keep the position under review and, as indicated, the ban will be lifted as soon as the medical advice suggests that it is safe to do so. I hope that that clarifies the Executive's position. I would be pleased to answer any questions that members may have.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful for the opportunity to make this statement to the chamber today. Members will recall that in last week's food safety debate, I touched on the Executive's position on beef on the bone. Since then, there has been considerable press coverage of the issue and we have received requests from a number of members to clarify the Scottish position. We considered it important that we take the opportunity to do just that. The purpose of my statement is to set out, fully and clearly, the Scottish Executive's position and to answer questions that members may have about it.

It may be useful for members if, briefly by way of background, I touch on the history of the issue. The beef-on-the-bone ban was introduced on 16 December 1997, following consideration of the issue by the Spongiform Encephalopathy Advisory Committee, or SEAC—the Government's scientific advisers in this field—and advice from the then chief medical officer in England. That advice was fully endorsed by the Scottish CMO and was also accepted by the then Scottish Office ministers.

A review of the ban was undertaken by the present CMO in England in January 1999. His advice, again fully endorsed by the Scottish CMO, was that a lifting of the ban at that time would result in the reintroduction of an unacceptable degree of risk that had been eliminated by the imposition of the ban.

While progress had been made in the measures to reduce the incidence of BSE and the risk of transmission of the disease to humans, the recommendation was for a continuation of the ban with a review to be undertaken after six months. The outcome of further work by the Wellcome Trust Centre at the University of Oxford was to be part of that further consideration. That was the position in January this year.

Since then, the CMOs in Scotland and elsewhere in the UK have continued to keep the position under review and to consider the relevant evidence that has emerged during the intervening period.

There is at present a difference of professional view between the English CMO and the CMOs for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland on the evidence available. I refer here to information that has been in the public domain over the past few days: the English CMO advises that the additional risk to human health created by lifting the bone-in beef ban, on visible cuts of beef, is tiny and unquantifiable in any meaningful way. However, he also advises that the retention of the ban on the use of bones for manufacturing food products, including infant foods, would be a sensible and very precautionary approach. I must emphasise to members that all the CMOs are united on that last point—that the ban should not be lifted on manufactured beef products.

The Scottish CMO, in common with the Welsh and Northern Irish CMOs, remains concerned that there is insufficient evidence available to underpin a decision to lift the ban on visible cuts of beef now. He has advised specifically that:

\"the evidence has not changed sufficiently to justify a lifting of the ban at this time. The history of the BSE epidemic underlines the advisability of continuing to err on the side of caution. The Scottish CMO does not consider that we yet have enough scientific certainty to depart from the precautionary principle and would recommend that the ban stays in place, subject to review on receipt of the definitive estimates from the Oxford Group and to re-appraisal in January 2000 if the ban has not been lifted by that time\".

The Oxford group is considering the risks associated with maternal transmission—cow-tocalf infection—of BSE. Updates of its analysis, which informed the earlier review and, indeed, the original ban, will not be available until November.

Some of the Scottish CMO's key concerns are as follows. For the whole of 1999, we can expect more than 2,200 BSE cases in Great Britain. Dorsal root ganglia are the tissues that are connected to the spinal cord and have been shown to carry BSE. They are in part removed by deboning, they are known to be highly infective and they contain infectivity before the disease becomes clinically apparent. There is also uncertainty about possible infectivity in bone marrow. There remains uncertainly about the number of cattle acquiring BSE by cow-to-calf maternal transmission: the Oxford study results will assist with that. Finally, there is still considerable uncertainty about the eventual size of the variant CJD epidemic.

In short, there is a difference of professional view, but there is no difference in policy outcome. It is well recognised in all parts of the UK that uniform action throughout the UK is highly desirable, and that is what has transpired. Equally, as I have said on many occasions in this chamber and will repeat today, it is recognised that this is a public health matter and that a precautionary approach is essential if we are to safeguard public health in Scotland and elsewhere in the UK.

Variant CJD is a particularly distressing disease, and so far it has always been fatal. By the end of June 1999, 43 people had developed vCJD. More cases are awaiting diagnostic confirmation. We cannot ignore or underestimate the human suffering and loss that results from vCJD. Given the long incubation period, it is too early to make confident predictions about the eventual scale of infection: estimates range from a few hundred to several million cases. There is, therefore, considerable uncertainty and no room for complacency in our handling of this issue.

The Scottish Executive's policy is clear on this matter: public health must come first, and we must listen to the medical advice that is given to us. We all want to lift the beef-on-the-bone ban, but only when the medical advice indicates that it is safe to do so. The advice is that it is not yet safe to do so, hence the ban will remain for the time being. That is in everyone's interest—producers as well as consumers.

We will, of course, continue to keep the position under review and, as indicated, the ban will be lifted as soon as the medical advice suggests that it is safe to do so. I hope that that clarifies the Executive's position. I would be pleased to answer any questions that members may have.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1893E47P78C708099", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Beef on the Bone", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26837, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 77.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 77.0, "ID": 26837, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnstone, Alex", "ID": 1893, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Johnstone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Johnstone (North-East Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 87.0, "ContributionID": 708099, "EditedText": "The Conservative group has always considered the ban to be unjustified. I have a few questions— the few left to me after those of Mr Morgan—that I would like to be answered. First, is the Executive prepared to accept the statement by the English chief medical officer that the health risk \"created by lifting the bone-in beef ban on visible cuts of beef, is tiny and unquantifiable in any meaningful way\"? Does the Executive accept or reject that view?Secondly, the minister quoted the Scottish CMO as saying that he \"does not consider that we yet have enough scientific certainty\" and that he suggested that evidence be \"subject to review on receipt of the definitive estimates from the Oxford Group and to re-appraisal in January 2000 if the ban has not been lifted by that time\". Can she explain the difference in meaning between \"review\" and \"re-appraisal\"? Could she also explain why, when we are talking about differences of opinion between the English CMO and his Scottish equivalent, she was happy to quote BSE figures for the United Kingdom as a whole, rather than to consider the position of the industry in Scotland and its commendable record in the eradication of BSE so far? The minister said that:\"there is a difference of professional view, but there is no difference in policy outcome.\" How does that correlate with the story in yesterday's papers, which suggested that Nick Brown and his colleagues in England intend to follow a very different policy if the opportunity is available? After all is said and done, can the minister justify a situation in which, at some time in the future, it may be possible for Tony Blair to tuck in to roast beef in Downing Street, while in Bute House Donald Dewar has to dae withoot?", "EditedTextHTML": "The Conservative group has always considered the ban to be unjustified. I have a few questions— the few left to me after those of Mr Morgan—that I would like to be answered. First, is the Executive prepared to accept the statement by the English chief medical officer that the health risk

\"created by lifting the bone-in beef ban on visible cuts of beef, is tiny and unquantifiable in any meaningful way\"?

Does the Executive accept or reject that view?

Secondly, the minister quoted the Scottish CMO as saying that he

\"does not consider that we yet have enough scientific certainty\" and that he suggested that evidence be

\"subject to review on receipt of the definitive estimates from the Oxford Group and to re-appraisal in January 2000 if the ban has not been lifted by that time\".

Can she explain the difference in meaning between \"review\" and \"re-appraisal\"?

Could she also explain why, when we are talking about differences of opinion between the English CMO and his Scottish equivalent, she was happy to quote BSE figures for the United Kingdom as a whole, rather than to consider the position of the industry in Scotland and its commendable record in the eradication of BSE so far?

The minister said that:

\"there is a difference of professional view, but there is no difference in policy outcome.\"

How does that correlate with the story in yesterday's papers, which suggested that Nick Brown and his colleagues in England intend to follow a very different policy if the opportunity is available?

After all is said and done, can the minister justify a situation in which, at some time in the future, it may be possible for Tony Blair to tuck in to roast beef in Downing Street, while in Bute House Donald Dewar has to dae withoot?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C708100", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Beef on the Bone", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26837, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 77.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 77.0, "ID": 26837, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 89.0, "ContributionID": 708100, "EditedText": "I have repeatedly argued that matters such as this should not be reduced to party political debate and I am going to try to adhere to my own advice, but I must remind Mr Johnstone, and other members, that the Executive and the UK Government adopted a precautionary approach on the issue—it is why we have had to take such widespread measures to reduce the incidence of BSE in cattle and in turn reduce the risk of infection of variant CJD in humans— because of the crisis that arose because the previous, Conservative, Government failed to act. We are not prepared to make those same mistakes. We are not prepared to keep the information that is available to us—the medical advice about the health risks—from the public. I have stated clearly and plainly, as openly and accurately as I am able, the basis on which we made our decision. Someone asked what the distinction was between a professional view and a policy view. I have made it clear that a distinction can be made between the views of the CMO's on this issue. However, precisely because a United Kingdom position is essential, there is no distinction between the policy positions of different ministers and different Governments across the UK. That is in the best interests of public health throughout the UK. In the spirit of openness—lest I should miss the opportunity to say that—may I point out to members that the Scottish CMO's advice is available not only from the Scottish Parliament information centre, but from the reference point at the back of the chamber. I urge members to read it in detail. It is also available on the Scottish Executive website—not on the Scottish Parliament website as I said earlier. We should do what the Scottish people expect of us on this issue, which is to be open, responsible and to exercise sensible political judgment based on sound medical and scientific advice. That is in the best interests of the Scottish people and of the Scottish industry. The best way in which we can achieve long-term confidence in the Scottish beef industry is to ensure that we take sensible precautionary measures in the interests of public health and to ensure that we have safe beef and beef products on the market.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have repeatedly argued that matters such as this should not be reduced to party political debate and I am going to try to adhere to my own advice, but I must remind Mr Johnstone, and other members, that the Executive and the UK Government adopted a precautionary approach on the issue—it is why we have had to take such widespread measures to reduce the incidence of BSE in cattle and in turn reduce the risk of infection of variant CJD in humans— because of the crisis that arose because the previous, Conservative, Government failed to act.

We are not prepared to make those same mistakes. We are not prepared to keep the information that is available to us—the medical advice about the health risks—from the public. I have stated clearly and plainly, as openly and accurately as I am able, the basis on which we made our decision.

Someone asked what the distinction was between a professional view and a policy view. I have made it clear that a distinction can be made between the views of the CMO's on this issue. However, precisely because a United Kingdom position is essential, there is no distinction between the policy positions of different ministers and different Governments across the UK. That is in the best interests of public health throughout the UK.

In the spirit of openness—lest I should miss the opportunity to say that—may I point out to members that the Scottish CMO's advice is available not only from the Scottish Parliament information centre, but from the reference point at the back of the chamber. I urge members to read it in detail. It is also available on the Scottish Executive website—not on the Scottish Parliament website as I said earlier.

We should do what the Scottish people expect of us on this issue, which is to be open, responsible and to exercise sensible political judgment based on sound medical and scientific advice. That is in the best interests of the Scottish people and of the Scottish industry. The best way in which we can achieve long-term confidence in the Scottish beef industry is to ensure that we take sensible precautionary measures in the interests of public health and to ensure that we have safe beef and beef products on the market.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C708104", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Beef on the Bone", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26837, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 77.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 77.0, "ID": 26837, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 97.0, "ContributionID": 708104, "EditedText": "I agree with Dr Simpson that considerable uncertainty remains about the eventual size of the variant CJD epidemic. It is difficult to say with certainty how many cases of variant CJD there are—that is one of the great problems with this disease. We can say for definite how many deaths there have been. I think that I am right in saying that one death occurred as recently as last month, and there was another in July. We know that variant CJD is a reality and that there is a health risk. I agree that it would be quite wrong of us, as the Government, to ignore that risk. That is why we have taken these decisions on this issue.", "EditedTextHTML": "I agree with Dr Simpson that considerable uncertainty remains about the eventual size of the variant CJD epidemic. It is difficult to say with certainty how many cases of variant CJD there are—that is one of the great problems with this disease. We can say for definite how many deaths there have been. I think that I am right in saying that one death occurred as recently as last month, and there was another in July.

We know that variant CJD is a reality and that there is a health risk. I agree that it would be quite wrong of us, as the Government, to ignore that risk. That is why we have taken these decisions on this issue.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1892E34P73C708105", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Beef on the Bone", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26837, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 77.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 77.0, "ID": 26837, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Fergusson, Alex", "ID": 1892, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Fergusson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Fergusson (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 99.0, "ContributionID": 708105, "EditedText": "The minister openly and rightly drew attention to the fact that the Scottish CMO expects there to be more than 2,200 cases of BSE in Great Britain this year. However, as Alasdair Morgan said, only 25 cases have been confirmed in Scotland so far this year, all of which have been in the dairy herd, which does not go into the food chain. Given that fact and the current advice of the English CMO, does the Scottish Executive agree that the Scottish public should be given a free choice to buy beef on the bone, as was originally proposed by SEAC?", "EditedTextHTML": "The minister openly and rightly drew attention to the fact that the Scottish CMO expects there to be more than 2,200 cases of BSE in Great Britain this year. However, as Alasdair Morgan said, only 25 cases have been confirmed in Scotland so far this year, all of which have been in the dairy herd, which does not go into the food chain. Given that fact and the current advice of the English CMO, does the Scottish Executive agree that the Scottish public should be given a free choice to buy beef on the bone, as was originally proposed by SEAC?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708109", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Beef on the Bone", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26837, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 77.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 77.0, "ID": 26837, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 107.0, "ContributionID": 708109, "EditedText": "I apologise to members who were not called, but I remind members that long questions simply cut out colleagues. That is what has happened today.", "EditedTextHTML": "I apologise to members who were not called, but I remind members that long questions simply cut out colleagues. That is what has happened today.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1889E118P162C708111", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tourism", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26838, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 109.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 109.0, "ID": 26838, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morrison, Mr Alasdair", "ID": 1889, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Western Isles" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morrison", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Highlands and Islands and Gaelic (Mr Alasdair Morrison): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 113.0, "ContributionID": 708111, "EditedText": "I welcome this opportunity—as I am sure everyone in the chamber does—to discuss tourism. As the motion indicates, tourism is one of our most important industries and is vital to our economy. It is worth around £2.5 billion annually and employs around 177,000 people. Tourism is growing worldwide at an estimated rate of more than 4 per cent annually. It is, of course, an increasingly competitive industry, so although there are great opportunities for Scotland, there are also many challenges. This Government is determined to assist our industry to meet those challenges successfully.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome this opportunity—as I am sure everyone in the chamber does—to discuss tourism. As the motion indicates, tourism is one of our most important industries and is vital to our economy. It is worth around £2.5 billion annually and employs around 177,000 people.

Tourism is growing worldwide at an estimated rate of more than 4 per cent annually. It is, of course, an increasingly competitive industry, so although there are great opportunities for Scotland, there are also many challenges. This Government is determined to assist our industry to meet those challenges successfully.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1889E118P162C708113", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tourism", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26838, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 109.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 109.0, "ID": 26838, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morrison, Mr Alasdair", "ID": 1889, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Western Isles" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morrison", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Morrison: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 117.0, "ContributionID": 708113, "EditedText": "Sir David, if it would be of assistance, may I just plough through the speech without taking interventions? That would allow more time.", "EditedTextHTML": "Sir David, if it would be of assistance, may I just plough through the speech without taking interventions? That would allow more time.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1889E118P162C708115", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tourism", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26838, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 109.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 109.0, "ID": 26838, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morrison, Mr Alasdair", "ID": 1889, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Western Isles" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morrison", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Morrison: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 121.0, "ContributionID": 708115, "EditedText": "I am obliged to you, Sir David.The challenges will be met through a partnership involving the industry, the Scottish Tourist Board and the area tourist boards, the enterprise networks, the local authorities and the many other organisations that provide both direct and indirect support. I should like to pay tribute to the industry and to put on record some of its achievements in recent times. The industry has embraced the ethos of quality. More than 9,100 accommodation providers are now members of the STB quality assurance scheme, which is known as the star scheme; when the scheme was launched in 1985, only 800 businesses were members. A new grading scheme for the rapidly growing hostels and bunkhouses sector has been introduced this year and is being well supported. The STB estimates that £138 million of investment in accommodation facilities since 1990 can be attributed to quality assurance. Of that total, £35 million was invested in 1998 alone. A similar scheme also applies in the visitor attraction sector and the STB is considering whether it might be extended further—to restaurants, for example. Our scheme has been used as a model for the development of quality grading schemes elsewhere—in Iceland and in South Africa, for example. That is very encouraging. Many people in the industry have recognised the benefits of training. The industry has come together with the public sector to determine what its training needs are and to do something about them. High service standards and quality customer care are priorities; the result has been the successful development of service quality programmes such as \"Welcome Host\" and \"Scotland's Best\". To date, there have been more than 50,000 participants in such tourism training programmes. Around 214 tourism businesses, employing a total of more than 15,000 employees, have achieved Investors in People recognition. That is around 15 per cent of all Scottish IIP awards and means that tourism is one of the best sectors in terms of IIP achievement in Scotland. We want to build on that success and to increase participation in training activities within the industry. The adoption of a lifelong learning culture within tourism will result in improved service standards throughout Scotland. The continued need to upgrade skills is particularly important if tourism businesses are to remain competitive. Consumer tastes are changing, customer expectations are rising and developments in information and communication technology will become an important factor in attracting and retaining good calibre staff. A major difficulty for our tourism industry has been that we have traditionally had a short season. Scotland has been seen as a summer destination. That problem has by no means been fully solved but progress has been made. With encouragement from the STB and ATB marketing campaigns such as \"Spring into Summer\", \"Autumn Gold\"—which was launched a few weeks ago—and others that promote winter breaks, an increasing number of businesses are staying open for much longer periods of the year. That commitment by those businesses has led to additional direct spending by tourists totalling more than £40 million since 1995. The marketing of Scotland as a tourist destination is primarily a task for the STB. In recent years, the STB has particularly targeted the English market, which, although our biggest market, has shown signs of decline. Those efforts were successful; in real terms, spend by visitors from England has increased from £703 million in 1994 to £1.1 billion in 1998. In targeting overseas markets, the STB works in close partnership with the British Tourist Authority, whose chairman and chief executive I was fortunate to meet last week. Scotland is promoted in all 27 overseas markets that are targeted by the BTA because of their considerable potential for British tourism. Scottish holiday activities such as golf, walking and city holidays are promoted by the BTA to identified markets and segments. Scotland features strongly in travel trade visits, business conference activity and press trips that are organised by the BTA. The BTA does sterling work and readily concedes that its two most marketable products are London and Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am obliged to you, Sir David.

The challenges will be met through a partnership involving the industry, the Scottish Tourist Board and the area tourist boards, the enterprise networks, the local authorities and the many other organisations that provide both direct and indirect support.

I should like to pay tribute to the industry and to put on record some of its achievements in recent times. The industry has embraced the ethos of quality. More than 9,100 accommodation providers are now members of the STB quality assurance scheme, which is known as the star scheme; when

the scheme was launched in 1985, only 800 businesses were members. A new grading scheme for the rapidly growing hostels and bunkhouses sector has been introduced this year and is being well supported. The STB estimates that £138 million of investment in accommodation facilities since 1990 can be attributed to quality assurance. Of that total, £35 million was invested in 1998 alone. A similar scheme also applies in the visitor attraction sector and the STB is considering whether it might be extended further—to restaurants, for example.

Our scheme has been used as a model for the development of quality grading schemes elsewhere—in Iceland and in South Africa, for example. That is very encouraging.

Many people in the industry have recognised the benefits of training. The industry has come together with the public sector to determine what its training needs are and to do something about them. High service standards and quality customer care are priorities; the result has been the successful development of service quality programmes such as \"Welcome Host\" and \"Scotland's Best\". To date, there have been more than 50,000 participants in such tourism training programmes. Around 214 tourism businesses, employing a total of more than 15,000 employees, have achieved Investors in People recognition. That is around 15 per cent of all Scottish IIP awards and means that tourism is one of the best sectors in terms of IIP achievement in Scotland.

We want to build on that success and to increase participation in training activities within the industry. The adoption of a lifelong learning culture within tourism will result in improved service standards throughout Scotland. The continued need to upgrade skills is particularly important if tourism businesses are to remain competitive. Consumer tastes are changing, customer expectations are rising and developments in information and communication technology will become an important factor in attracting and retaining good calibre staff.

A major difficulty for our tourism industry has been that we have traditionally had a short season. Scotland has been seen as a summer destination. That problem has by no means been fully solved but progress has been made. With encouragement from the STB and ATB marketing campaigns such as \"Spring into Summer\", \"Autumn Gold\"—which was launched a few weeks ago—and others that promote winter breaks, an increasing number of businesses are staying open for much longer periods of the year. That commitment by those businesses has led to additional direct spending by tourists totalling more than £40 million since 1995.

The marketing of Scotland as a tourist destination is primarily a task for the STB. In recent years, the STB has particularly targeted the English market, which, although our biggest market, has shown signs of decline. Those efforts were successful; in real terms, spend by visitors from England has increased from £703 million in 1994 to £1.1 billion in 1998.

In targeting overseas markets, the STB works in close partnership with the British Tourist Authority, whose chairman and chief executive I was fortunate to meet last week. Scotland is promoted in all 27 overseas markets that are targeted by the BTA because of their considerable potential for British tourism. Scottish holiday activities such as golf, walking and city holidays are promoted by the BTA to identified markets and segments. Scotland features strongly in travel trade visits, business conference activity and press trips that are organised by the BTA. The BTA does sterling work and readily concedes that its two most marketable products are London and Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1889E118P162C708117", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tourism", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26838, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 109.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 109.0, "ID": 26838, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morrison, Mr Alasdair", "ID": 1889, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Western Isles" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morrison", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Morrison: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 125.0, "ContributionID": 708117, "EditedText": "Marketing of Scotland is most important and the BTA has some £36 million at its disposal. Scotland enjoys roughly a sixth share of that. The BTA does fantastic work. The STB could, of course, work unilaterally but that would not be in Scotland's interests. The STB is on a concession, but the BTA readily concedes that the two products that are instantly marketable anywhere in the world are London—the UK's best and biggest tourist attraction—and Scotland. Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP)rose—", "EditedTextHTML": "Marketing of Scotland is most important and the BTA has some £36 million at its disposal. Scotland enjoys roughly a sixth share of that. The BTA does fantastic work.

The STB could, of course, work unilaterally but that would not be in Scotland's interests. The STB is on a concession, but the BTA readily concedes that the two products that are instantly marketable anywhere in the world are London—the UK's best and biggest tourist attraction—and Scotland.

Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP)

rose—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1889E118P162C708118", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tourism", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26838, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 109.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 109.0, "ID": 26838, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morrison, Mr Alasdair", "ID": 1889, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Western Isles" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morrison", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Morrison: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 127.0, "ContributionID": 708118, "EditedText": "I will press on.The Government is satisfied that the partnership between the STB and the BTA works well to the benefit of Scottish tourism. Spend by overseas visitors to Scotland has risen consistently during this decade. We expect that trend to continue; we have no reason to suspect otherwise. The tourism industry appears to have had more than its fair share of adverse publicity recently. Much of that has been unwarranted. Considerable attention was paid to comments made in the Westminster Scottish Affairs Committee report on tourism about bad experiences that committee members had encountered on their travels. We do not need reminding about the comments, which related to sticky linoleum and so on. Less attention was paid to the committee's conclusion. It said that it was \"generally impressed with the overall level of improvement which had clearly been made throughout the industry.\" It noted examples of that improvement, mentioning informative and entertaining visitor attractions such as Discovery Point in Dundee, the Stirling old town jail, Abbotsford House in the Borders and Loudoun Hall in Ayrshire among others. Committee members also noted that they had experienced welcoming and friendly staff and, in some places, a refreshingly adaptable attitude to meal requirements outside regular eating hours. That is one of the things that is given explicit consideration in our strategy.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will press on.

The Government is satisfied that the partnership between the STB and the BTA works well to the benefit of Scottish tourism. Spend by overseas visitors to Scotland has risen consistently during this decade. We expect that trend to continue; we have no reason to suspect otherwise.

The tourism industry appears to have had more than its fair share of adverse publicity recently. Much of that has been unwarranted. Considerable attention was paid to comments made in the Westminster Scottish Affairs Committee report on tourism about bad experiences that committee members had encountered on their travels. We do not need reminding about the comments, which related to sticky linoleum and so on.

Less attention was paid to the committee's conclusion. It said that it was

\"generally impressed with the overall level of improvement which had clearly been made throughout the industry.\"

It noted examples of that improvement, mentioning informative and entertaining visitor attractions such as Discovery Point in Dundee, the Stirling old town jail, Abbotsford House in the Borders and Loudoun Hall in Ayrshire among others. Committee members also noted that they had experienced welcoming and friendly staff and, in some places, a refreshingly adaptable attitude to meal requirements outside regular eating hours. That is one of the things that is given explicit consideration in our strategy.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1889E118P162C708122", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tourism", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26838, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 109.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 109.0, "ID": 26838, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morrison, Mr Alasdair", "ID": 1889, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Western Isles" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morrison", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Morrison: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 135.0, "ContributionID": 708122, "EditedText": "If Mr Adam does not mind, I will press on; I am just about to wind up. The evidence is that cities, particularly Edinburgh and Glasgow, have performed better than some of the remoter areas, especially in the north of the country. I have been getting mixed reactions in my constituency in the Western Isles—which, as everyone knows, is a fair place. Although things are going well in some parts with some modest growth, people in other parts are not so content. We will, of course, have definitive figures. It will be a few weeks yet before the first firm information about the performance of the industry in individual ATB areas is available. In view of the volatility of the Scots market— which was the only market to show a substantial decline last year—and the heavy dependence of remoter rural areas on Scottish short-break business, I have asked the STB and the ATBs to recommend how they could encourage Scots to take more breaks at home. The Parliament should warmly welcome the progress that the industry has recently made. However, as our motion recognises, the industry faces a number of challenges if it is to become— as we all want—truly world-class. I will mention only a few areas that we need to tackle. We need to boost tourism in remoter areas. Although the economy of many of those areas is highly dependent on tourism, the season in such areas tends to be particularly short. We need to examine how we market Scotland to focus better on the strengths of those areas. The number of overseas visitors holidaying in Scotland is increasing year on year and the number of visitors from England, which remains our biggest market, has recently grown, reversing a previously downward trend. However, we face a major challenge in persuading our own people that Scotland is an ideal place for a short holiday. We must meet that challenge while continuing to grow the overseas market and the English market. The tourism industry needs to improve still further training and skills standards. Tourism must be able to demonstrate that it can provide a first- choice career. People are the industry's most important asset and staff and business practices must be developed to challenge the best in the world. The industry down to and including the small business level must embrace the benefits of IT, which can be utilised to provide quickly the information that businesses need to improve performance. Project Ossian, which is being developed by the STB, will provide substantial benefits for businesses and their customers. The increasing number of internet users worldwide will expect to be able to research their holiday—and to book and to pay for it—without leaving the comfort of their homes. If they cannot do that with Scotland, there will be a greater incentive to holiday elsewhere. As the Government is determined to help the industry to meet those challenges, it has committed itself to publishing a new strategy around the turn of the year. We intend the document to be action-oriented; it will identify what needs to be done and how that will be done. We want the preparation of that strategy to be as open and as inclusive as possible and to hear from everyone with a contribution to make. The industry clearly has views that it wants us to consider, which we shall do. In response to a request from the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee, we have extended the period during which we will take comments until the end of the month. At the last count, we had received more than 520 responses. Henry and I have been out and about talking to industry businesses and to representatives of ATBs and local marketing consortia to hear their views at first hand. That has been of immense value. Between us, we have visited areas as far apart as Shetland and Dumfries and Galloway. Those visits will continue, although members will understand that it will not be possible to accept every invitation that we receive in the time available before we publish the strategy. Last week, I met all the chairs and chief executives of all Scotland's ATBs together, the first time that such a meeting had been held. The ATBs, with around 15,000 trade members, will be key players if the strategy is to be implemented successfully. We are, of course, considering the method of their funding. ATBs have made strong representations that they need greater funding stability and we shall certainly consider whether anything can be done in that respect. We have asked for responses on funding and will endeavour to reach a conclusion as soon as we can, although there are sharply conflicting views as to the way ahead. Tourism can have a beneficial effect on many other aspects of life in Scotland, which, conversely, can also benefit tourism. My colleague Rhona Brankin, who is beside me today to answer this debate, is responsible for culture and sport. Scotland's wonderful culture, heritage and language and its sporting achievements can and must be used to attract additional tourism to Scotland. A perfect example is golf. The Open championship was held at Carnoustie in July and the Walker cup was held earlier this month at Nairn, in the Highlands. Both those events attracted massive media coverage worldwide. We must use that to benefit tourism in the long term. I can tell members today that proposals to develop golf tourism will feature in our new strategy. Government can do only so much. The industry must take ownership of the new strategy and individual businesses must adapt its conclusions to the best benefit for themselves. I am sure that they will rise to the challenge. As I said, the Government is in no doubt about the importance of Scotland's tourism industry. We are listening to the industry and we are examining what needs to be done. We will produce our new strategy early in the new year. I look forward to hearing members' views about the challenges that Scotland's tourism industry faces and about how those can best be tackled. I am convinced that we can not only match our competitors, but beat them. I move,That the Parliament acknowledges the importance of the tourism industry to the economy of Scotland, agrees that the industry faces a number of challenges and notes that the Government intends to publish in the new year a new strategy for the industry that will address these challenges.", "EditedTextHTML": "If Mr Adam does not mind, I will press on; I am just about to wind up.

The evidence is that cities, particularly Edinburgh and Glasgow, have performed better than some of the remoter areas, especially in the north of the country. I have been getting mixed reactions in my constituency in the Western Isles—which, as everyone knows, is a fair place. Although things are going well in some parts with some modest growth, people in other parts are not so content. We will, of course, have definitive figures. It will be a few weeks yet before the first firm information about the performance of the industry in individual ATB areas is available.

In view of the volatility of the Scots market— which was the only market to show a substantial decline last year—and the heavy dependence of remoter rural areas on Scottish short-break business, I have asked the STB and the ATBs to recommend how they could encourage Scots to take more breaks at home.

The Parliament should warmly welcome the progress that the industry has recently made. However, as our motion recognises, the industry faces a number of challenges if it is to become— as we all want—truly world-class.

I will mention only a few areas that we need to tackle. We need to boost tourism in remoter areas. Although the economy of many of those areas is highly dependent on tourism, the season in such areas tends to be particularly short. We need to examine how we market Scotland to focus better on the strengths of those areas.

The number of overseas visitors holidaying in Scotland is increasing year on year and the number of visitors from England, which remains our biggest market, has recently grown, reversing a previously downward trend. However, we face a major challenge in persuading our own people that Scotland is an ideal place for a short holiday. We must meet that challenge while continuing to grow the overseas market and the English market.

The tourism industry needs to improve still further training and skills standards. Tourism must be able to demonstrate that it can provide a first- choice career. People are the industry's most important asset and staff and business practices must be developed to challenge the best in the world.

The industry down to and including the small business level must embrace the benefits of IT, which can be utilised to provide quickly the

information that businesses need to improve performance. Project Ossian, which is being developed by the STB, will provide substantial benefits for businesses and their customers. The increasing number of internet users worldwide will expect to be able to research their holiday—and to book and to pay for it—without leaving the comfort of their homes. If they cannot do that with Scotland, there will be a greater incentive to holiday elsewhere.

As the Government is determined to help the industry to meet those challenges, it has committed itself to publishing a new strategy around the turn of the year. We intend the document to be action-oriented; it will identify what needs to be done and how that will be done.

We want the preparation of that strategy to be as open and as inclusive as possible and to hear from everyone with a contribution to make. The industry clearly has views that it wants us to consider, which we shall do. In response to a request from the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee, we have extended the period during which we will take comments until the end of the month. At the last count, we had received more than 520 responses.

Henry and I have been out and about talking to industry businesses and to representatives of ATBs and local marketing consortia to hear their views at first hand. That has been of immense value. Between us, we have visited areas as far apart as Shetland and Dumfries and Galloway. Those visits will continue, although members will understand that it will not be possible to accept every invitation that we receive in the time available before we publish the strategy.

Last week, I met all the chairs and chief executives of all Scotland's ATBs together, the first time that such a meeting had been held. The ATBs, with around 15,000 trade members, will be key players if the strategy is to be implemented successfully. We are, of course, considering the method of their funding. ATBs have made strong representations that they need greater funding stability and we shall certainly consider whether anything can be done in that respect. We have asked for responses on funding and will endeavour to reach a conclusion as soon as we can, although there are sharply conflicting views as to the way ahead.

Tourism can have a beneficial effect on many other aspects of life in Scotland, which, conversely, can also benefit tourism. My colleague Rhona Brankin, who is beside me today to answer this debate, is responsible for culture and sport. Scotland's wonderful culture, heritage and language and its sporting achievements can and must be used to attract additional tourism to Scotland.

A perfect example is golf. The Open championship was held at Carnoustie in July and the Walker cup was held earlier this month at Nairn, in the Highlands. Both those events attracted massive media coverage worldwide. We must use that to benefit tourism in the long term. I can tell members today that proposals to develop golf tourism will feature in our new strategy.

Government can do only so much. The industry must take ownership of the new strategy and individual businesses must adapt its conclusions to the best benefit for themselves. I am sure that they will rise to the challenge.

As I said, the Government is in no doubt about the importance of Scotland's tourism industry. We are listening to the industry and we are examining what needs to be done. We will produce our new strategy early in the new year. I look forward to hearing members' views about the challenges that Scotland's tourism industry faces and about how those can best be tackled. I am convinced that we can not only match our competitors, but beat them.

I move,

That the Parliament acknowledges the importance of the tourism industry to the economy of Scotland, agrees that the industry faces a number of challenges and notes that the Government intends to publish in the new year a new strategy for the industry that will address these challenges.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C708129", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tourism", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26838, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 109.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 109.0, "ID": 26838, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 151.0, "ContributionID": 708129, "EditedText": "Just a very short one.", "EditedTextHTML": "Just a very short one.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C708131", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tourism", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26838, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 109.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 109.0, "ID": 26838, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 155.0, "ContributionID": 708131, "EditedText": "How many times have SNP members been at Westminster, lobbying hard on this subject? I take it that their attendance has been 100 per cent.", "EditedTextHTML": "How many times have SNP members been at Westminster, lobbying hard on this subject? I take it that their attendance has been 100 per cent.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C708123", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tourism", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26838, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 109.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 109.0, "ID": 26838, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr David Davidson (North-East Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 138.0, "ContributionID": 708123, "EditedText": "I welcome this debate, which is of major importance to Scotland. However, I am disappointed in the Executive's motion, which does not grasp the major issues that concern the industry. The minister gave the industry a litany of compliments, which is fine, but the industry wants to look forward—looking back all the time is not enough. I am disappointed that the debate is being cut short, as tourism is an important issue. The industry will be looking closely at us today. On 1 September, Henry McLeish, in elaborating on his statement of his department's priorities to the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee, said that tourism was a particular priority. However, despite the fact that the House of Commons select committee inquiry into tourism stated that there should be a minister with responsibility for tourism, the minister told us that he did not believe that having a separate minister would benefit the industry. We agree that tourism is a major industry in Scotland and we have heard the figures. However, the minister did not talk about the potential for growth. We have a unique product with quality and diversity—that product is Scotland. Despite that, the Executive puts tourism in a bag with other issues for a minister to look after. With 23 ministers—in addition to those in the Scotland Office—surely the Executive can spare someone to give leadership to this industry. am not happy with the way in which the Executive is handling this issue. I was concerned to see The Scotsman today quoting Henry McLeish as saying: \"It's about time Scots believed in themselves\".We need a clear signal that the Executive believes in the industry and accords it the importance that it deserves. We must ensure that our communities in rural areas can benefit from tourism. We know what the problems in those areas are—many of them relate to the damage that has been done to the agriculture sector, much of which has been caused by this Government's policies. We have heard time and again, from the industry and others, that we must streamline the structure and stabilise the funding. The minister gave us a hint that that will be looked at, but I would have liked to hear a little bit more about how it would be possible. In 1992, the Conservative Government conducted a review that led, in 1994, to the Scottish Tourist Board being given responsibility for tourism, marketing and sponsorship of the area tourist boards. At the same time, Scottish Enterprise and Highlands and Islands Enterprise were made responsible for business development and training. In 1996, the Conservative Government consolidated the ATBs to provide critical mass and greater focus. Today, we must move to the next rational stage. We believe that, to sponsor ATBs effectively, the Scottish Tourist Board must manage core-funding support and deliver it directly to the ATBs. No longer should area boards continue to suffer from the inherent instability of the allocation of public sector funding through local authorities. Budgets cannot be planned effectively while councils chop and change their short-term political agendas, giving little notice of funding stream changes. Rivalries and disagreements over tourism priorities between councils within ATB areas deflect the boards away from long-term planning and strategy implementation and waste time and manpower in the attempt to secure resources. The Conservatives would rather that boards focused on raising standards, on widening choice and on selling their product. The tourism industry is too important for this muddle to continue. Direct funding would give the area boards more independence and would allow for three-year budgeting, which would assist in long-term planning. In return, the STB would be better able to monitor performance and co-ordinate support for the industry, including dialogue with the enterprise network. The area boards must be encouraged to participate in partnerships with local authorities and local enterprise companies to develop local initiatives. Local authorities have an important responsibility in planning. That, too, must be reviewed to modernise the process, which is costly and slow. Planning must better consider the needs of the industry without losing control of the quality of our environment. Before the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities gets too excited, I will add that we also believe that the input of councillors at board level should be retained to ensure accountability to communities. Many small businesses in the industry are struggling under the bureaucratic burdens that the Labour Government has imposed. More than 2,500 pieces of legislation have been introduced since Labour came to power. The Government does not seem to understand enterprise. Business contributes a large portion of ATB resources. If we include the commercial activities of the boards, the contribution amounts to almost half of some boards' incomes. Unlike the SNP, we believe that the private sector must play a larger part in the development of the industry. In particular, there have to be better links between tourism and many of our speciality Scottish businesses. Membership schemes must be modernised and must not become a barrier. I know that the minister was a town planner in a former life, but I hope that he is prepared to take on a new profession. I would like him to become an advocate of Scottish business at Westminster and fight for the reduction in bureaucracy that Tony Blair promised before the election. One has to wonder what went wrong. If devolution is to mean anything, this Parliament must take that message south. Tourism outside the central belt is a greater relative contributor to the local economy, but is dependent on the use of the motor car. In Grampian, more than 60 per cent of tourists use cars. This Government's fuel taxation policy must be the greatest danger to the sustainability and the development of the industry. If we impose road tolls and entry charges and increase parking charges, tourists will not drive about in Scotland. Is the minister aware that more bed nights are spent in caravan parks and camp sites than in hotels? That sector is dependent on the motor car. The Parliament must recognise that taxation and over-regulation are brakes on an industry that must compete in a global market. Business can drive down cost through flair and training, but it desperately needs a Government that is prepared to establish an enterprise-friendly environment for ultimate success. I will not list the evidence, but suffice it to say that many potential entrants are deterred by the bureaucracy before they even start to trade. I hope that the minister will pass on to his colleagues the fact that Chancellor Brown would do well to recognise the effects of the weak euro and the variance of tax rates in other parts of Europe. Luckily, the industry has not had to face the preelection threats of what used to be the Liberal party, whose proposals for turnover tax, payroll tax and their ludicrous caravan tax have gone. I suppose that we must thank the minister for that, as well as for throwing out Keith Geddes's proposal for a bed tax. I recall Liberals talking about paid days away for training. How can a small business that trades seven days a week with two or three staff afford to have people away? The minister talked about the use of the internet. Why cannot further education colleges and local enterprise trusts be involved in delivering on-the-job training, whether as distance learning packages, as videos or in some other form? I am sure that most people would be quite happy to give their staff an hour a day for training if they could not afford to send them away for a day, especially when public transport in some areas is just not up to it. I agree with the minister that commerce needs to use the internet, but it needs to learn how to use it. That, again, is a role for the minister to direct. If he was happy enough to get involved in discussions with the ATBs this week, he will know that what I have said has been repeated several times in different parts of the country. The Conservatives propose that the STB should not be totally tied in to everything that the British Tourist Authority says and does. Yes, the BTA has a supporting role and there are many shared areas of responsibility. However, we think that the STB must not be tied in too tightly when we are competing in a world market even against our neighbours. The STB is not only the national face of the industry, it is the correct conduit for core public sector funding, ensuring a uniform roll-out of standards and support through the ATB network and eliminating unhelpful interference from local government decision making. On behalf of the industry and Scotland, we ask this Parliament to agree that there should be a distinct minister for tourism, with responsibility for overseeing on our behalf the modernisation of the industry structure and the creation of the correct culture for the industry to become sustainable and grow to its full potential. I beg the minister and his colleagues in the Executive to recognise that the taxation and bureaucratic burdens faced by Scottish business, and by tourism in particular, must be reduced to allow Scotland to take her rightful place in world tourism. I move, as an amendment to motion S1M-160 in the name of Alasdair Morrison, to leave out from \"and notes\" to end and insert: \", including additional taxation and regulation, and calls upon the Scottish Executive to use its influence to reduce such burdens and radically review the structure and funding of tourism in Scotland.\"", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome this debate, which is of major importance to Scotland. However, I am disappointed in the Executive's motion, which does not grasp the major issues that concern the industry. The minister gave the industry a litany of compliments, which is fine, but the industry wants to look forward—looking back all the time is not enough. I am disappointed that the debate is being cut short, as tourism is an important issue. The industry will be looking closely at us today.

On 1 September, Henry McLeish, in elaborating on his statement of his department's priorities to the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee, said that tourism was a particular priority. However, despite the fact that the House of Commons select committee inquiry into tourism stated that there should be a minister with responsibility for tourism, the minister told us that he did not believe that having a separate minister would benefit the industry.

We agree that tourism is a major industry in Scotland and we have heard the figures. However, the minister did not talk about the potential for growth. We have a unique product with quality and diversity—that product is Scotland. Despite that, the Executive puts tourism in a bag with other

issues for a minister to look after. With 23 ministers—in addition to those in the Scotland Office—surely the Executive can spare someone to give leadership to this industry. am not happy with the way in which the Executive is handling this issue. I was concerned to see The Scotsman today quoting Henry McLeish as saying:

\"It's about time Scots believed in themselves\".

We need a clear signal that the Executive believes in the industry and accords it the importance that it deserves. We must ensure that our communities in rural areas can benefit from tourism. We know what the problems in those areas are—many of them relate to the damage that has been done to the agriculture sector, much of which has been caused by this Government's policies.

We have heard time and again, from the industry and others, that we must streamline the structure and stabilise the funding. The minister gave us a hint that that will be looked at, but I would have liked to hear a little bit more about how it would be possible.

In 1992, the Conservative Government conducted a review that led, in 1994, to the Scottish Tourist Board being given responsibility for tourism, marketing and sponsorship of the area tourist boards. At the same time, Scottish Enterprise and Highlands and Islands Enterprise were made responsible for business development and training.

In 1996, the Conservative Government consolidated the ATBs to provide critical mass and greater focus. Today, we must move to the next rational stage. We believe that, to sponsor ATBs effectively, the Scottish Tourist Board must manage core-funding support and deliver it directly to the ATBs. No longer should area boards continue to suffer from the inherent instability of the allocation of public sector funding through local authorities. Budgets cannot be planned effectively while councils chop and change their short-term political agendas, giving little notice of funding stream changes.

Rivalries and disagreements over tourism priorities between councils within ATB areas deflect the boards away from long-term planning and strategy implementation and waste time and manpower in the attempt to secure resources. The Conservatives would rather that boards focused on raising standards, on widening choice and on selling their product. The tourism industry is too important for this muddle to continue. Direct funding would give the area boards more independence and would allow for three-year budgeting, which would assist in long-term planning. In return, the STB would be better able to monitor performance and co-ordinate support for the industry, including dialogue with the enterprise network.

The area boards must be encouraged to participate in partnerships with local authorities and local enterprise companies to develop local initiatives. Local authorities have an important responsibility in planning. That, too, must be reviewed to modernise the process, which is costly and slow. Planning must better consider the needs of the industry without losing control of the quality of our environment. Before the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities gets too excited, I will add that we also believe that the input of councillors at board level should be retained to ensure accountability to communities.

Many small businesses in the industry are struggling under the bureaucratic burdens that the Labour Government has imposed. More than 2,500 pieces of legislation have been introduced since Labour came to power. The Government does not seem to understand enterprise. Business contributes a large portion of ATB resources. If we include the commercial activities of the boards, the contribution amounts to almost half of some boards' incomes. Unlike the SNP, we believe that the private sector must play a larger part in the development of the industry. In particular, there have to be better links between tourism and many of our speciality Scottish businesses. Membership schemes must be modernised and must not become a barrier.

I know that the minister was a town planner in a former life, but I hope that he is prepared to take on a new profession. I would like him to become an advocate of Scottish business at Westminster and fight for the reduction in bureaucracy that Tony Blair promised before the election. One has to wonder what went wrong. If devolution is to mean anything, this Parliament must take that message south.

Tourism outside the central belt is a greater relative contributor to the local economy, but is dependent on the use of the motor car. In Grampian, more than 60 per cent of tourists use cars. This Government's fuel taxation policy must be the greatest danger to the sustainability and the development of the industry. If we impose road tolls and entry charges and increase parking charges, tourists will not drive about in Scotland. Is the minister aware that more bed nights are spent in caravan parks and camp sites than in hotels? That sector is dependent on the motor car.

The Parliament must recognise that taxation and over-regulation are brakes on an industry that must compete in a global market. Business can drive down cost through flair and training, but it desperately needs a Government that is prepared to establish an enterprise-friendly environment for ultimate success. I will not list the evidence, but

suffice it to say that many potential entrants are deterred by the bureaucracy before they even start to trade. I hope that the minister will pass on to his colleagues the fact that Chancellor Brown would do well to recognise the effects of the weak euro and the variance of tax rates in other parts of Europe.

Luckily, the industry has not had to face the preelection threats of what used to be the Liberal party, whose proposals for turnover tax, payroll tax and their ludicrous caravan tax have gone. I suppose that we must thank the minister for that, as well as for throwing out Keith Geddes's proposal for a bed tax.

I recall Liberals talking about paid days away for training. How can a small business that trades seven days a week with two or three staff afford to have people away? The minister talked about the use of the internet. Why cannot further education colleges and local enterprise trusts be involved in delivering on-the-job training, whether as distance learning packages, as videos or in some other form? I am sure that most people would be quite happy to give their staff an hour a day for training if they could not afford to send them away for a day, especially when public transport in some areas is just not up to it.

I agree with the minister that commerce needs to use the internet, but it needs to learn how to use it. That, again, is a role for the minister to direct. If he was happy enough to get involved in discussions with the ATBs this week, he will know that what I have said has been repeated several times in different parts of the country.

The Conservatives propose that the STB should not be totally tied in to everything that the British Tourist Authority says and does. Yes, the BTA has a supporting role and there are many shared areas of responsibility. However, we think that the STB must not be tied in too tightly when we are competing in a world market even against our neighbours.

The STB is not only the national face of the industry, it is the correct conduit for core public sector funding, ensuring a uniform roll-out of standards and support through the ATB network and eliminating unhelpful interference from local government decision making.

On behalf of the industry and Scotland, we ask this Parliament to agree that there should be a distinct minister for tourism, with responsibility for overseeing on our behalf the modernisation of the industry structure and the creation of the correct culture for the industry to become sustainable and grow to its full potential. I beg the minister and his colleagues in the Executive to recognise that the taxation and bureaucratic burdens faced by Scottish business, and by tourism in particular, must be reduced to allow Scotland to take her rightful place in world tourism.

I move, as an amendment to motion S1M-160 in the name of Alasdair Morrison, to leave out from \"and notes\" to end and insert:

\", including additional taxation and regulation, and calls upon the Scottish Executive to use its influence to reduce such burdens and radically review the structure and funding of tourism in Scotland.\"

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1768E72P274C708139", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tourism", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26838, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 109.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 109.0, "ID": 26838, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Murray, Elaine", "ID": 1768, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumfries" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Murray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Murray: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 173.0, "ContributionID": 708139, "EditedText": "People might misunderstand that.", "EditedTextHTML": "People might misunderstand that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1840E82P158C708146", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tourism", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26838, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 109.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 109.0, "ID": 26838, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macmillan, Maureen", "ID": 1840, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Maureen Macmillan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Maureen Macmillan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 190.0, "ContributionID": 708146, "EditedText": "The shortage of skilled chefs has existed for a long time, not just since the closure of Duncraig. Careers education in schools has a lot to do with that shortage and I would like careers in tourism—particularly for chefs and in cookery—to be promoted more in schools. We want an attractive career structure. We also have infrastructure problems such as the lack of a Heathrow to Inverness air link; we have campaigned for a long time to have that link restored. I look forward to the benefits of an integrated transport system, which will encourage more visitors to come to the Highlands. We must maximise our efforts. The Scottish Tourist Board and the area tourist boards must have clearly defined roles and not trip over each other. Area tourist boards must be properly funded—people have discussed that already—and if they are losing members, they must take steps to redress the situation. Boards must represent the whole disparate and diverse industry in their area, and individual traders in the industry must sometimes be reminded that a fragmented industry will not prosper. Let us look at the big picture. Scotland gives people a great holiday. Overseas visitors and visitors from England realise that, and I hope that the Scots are listening to me now.", "EditedTextHTML": "The shortage of skilled chefs has existed for a long time, not just since the closure of Duncraig. Careers education in schools has a lot to do with that shortage and I would like careers in tourism—particularly for chefs and in cookery—to be promoted more in schools. We want an attractive career structure.

We also have infrastructure problems such as the lack of a Heathrow to Inverness air link; we have campaigned for a long time to have that link restored. I look forward to the benefits of an integrated transport system, which will encourage more visitors to come to the Highlands.

We must maximise our efforts. The Scottish Tourist Board and the area tourist boards must have clearly defined roles and not trip over each other. Area tourist boards must be properly funded—people have discussed that already—and if they are losing members, they must take steps to redress the situation. Boards must represent the whole disparate and diverse industry in their area, and individual traders in the industry must sometimes be reminded that a fragmented industry will not prosper.

Let us look at the big picture. Scotland gives people a great holiday. Overseas visitors and visitors from England realise that, and I hope that the Scots are listening to me now.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2044E178P334C708148", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tourism", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26838, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 109.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 109.0, "ID": 26838, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jenkins, Ian", "ID": 2044, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ian Jenkins", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ian Jenkins (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 196.0, "ContributionID": 708148, "EditedText": "I welcome the minister's statement today, and I welcome the tone of the debate. There is much that we can agree on across the chamber. Having listened to the minister, we can have no doubt that the Executive recognises the tremendous economic importance of tourism throughout Scotland. It is vital that we have a strategy that is robust and practicable. I welcome the consultation process that lies behind this motion. I want to say three things, some of which have been said already. I find myself in agreement with the Tories—Applause. I agree with them about the funding of area tourist boards. It is essential that some stability exists for the boards, so that they can plan ahead and not be dependent upon hard-pressed local authorities' annual heart- searching. I do not want to see the removal of democratic oversight, because that does not need to happen. Core funding should come from the Scottish Tourist Board. Of course, European funding is important when objective 2 and objective 3 structural funding is being discussed. I hope that the Government and the Executive have put the case for Scottish tourism with regard to that funding. The second issue that I wish to address has been spoken about already, so I do not want to labour it. Quality is desperately important. I am not sure that we cannot find some middle way between what Maureen said and what people in the tourist trade have been telling me; that they must have quality assurance and that they want compulsory registration so that they are not let down by the lowest common denominator. As we have read in The Scotsman and in the House of Commons report, anecdotes that rubbish the Scottish Tourist Board and the Scottish tourism industry are powerful, and when people let the industry down it damages its fabric. At least some kind of compulsory registration must be considered. I am skipping some bits. I, too, welcome Project Ossian and I want to address the issue of winning back the market that has been lost and which seems not be holding up as well as others are. I think that it was Harold Macmillan who, when asked why his policy changed, replied, \"Events, dear boy, events\". I want to draw attention to the importance of events to tourism; for example, the Thirlestane horse trials, the Highland games and other local festivals in my area. People take day trips to those events. I was surprised, although I understand the logic, that the figures for tourism do not include day visitors. If we have events, we can turn day visitors into overnight stays. Who would have thought that events such as the Hogmanay celebrations in Edinburgh or the tall ships event in Greenock would attract hundreds of thousands of people? Events attract people. They do not have to be big events. If we offer good value and good packages we can turn day visitors into overnight stays. That would restore the Scottish market and improve the tourist figures. Finally, I ask all members to spend some time in the Borders, where they will see lovely houses and lovely scenery, where there are tremendous places to walk and where the hospitality is second to none. We want people to come, to stay and to spend their money liberally.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the minister's statement today, and I welcome the tone of the debate. There is much that we can agree on across the chamber. Having listened to the minister, we can have no doubt that the Executive recognises the tremendous economic importance of tourism throughout Scotland. It is vital that we have a strategy that is robust and practicable. I welcome the consultation process that lies behind this motion.

I want to say three things, some of which have been said already. I find myself in agreement with the Tories—[Applause.] I agree with them about the funding of area tourist boards. It is essential that some stability exists for the boards, so that they can plan ahead and not be dependent upon hard-pressed local authorities' annual heart- searching. I do not want to see the removal of democratic oversight, because that does not need to happen. Core funding should come from the Scottish Tourist Board. Of course, European funding is important when objective 2 and objective 3 structural funding is being discussed. I hope that the Government and the Executive have put the case for Scottish tourism with regard to that funding.

The second issue that I wish to address has been spoken about already, so I do not want to labour it. Quality is desperately important. I am not sure that we cannot find some middle way between what Maureen said and what people in the tourist trade have been telling me; that they

must have quality assurance and that they want compulsory registration so that they are not let down by the lowest common denominator. As we have read in The Scotsman and in the House of Commons report, anecdotes that rubbish the Scottish Tourist Board and the Scottish tourism industry are powerful, and when people let the industry down it damages its fabric. At least some kind of compulsory registration must be considered.

I am skipping some bits. I, too, welcome Project Ossian and I want to address the issue of winning back the market that has been lost and which seems not be holding up as well as others are. I think that it was Harold Macmillan who, when asked why his policy changed, replied, \"Events, dear boy, events\". I want to draw attention to the importance of events to tourism; for example, the Thirlestane horse trials, the Highland games and other local festivals in my area. People take day trips to those events.

I was surprised, although I understand the logic, that the figures for tourism do not include day visitors. If we have events, we can turn day visitors into overnight stays. Who would have thought that events such as the Hogmanay celebrations in Edinburgh or the tall ships event in Greenock would attract hundreds of thousands of people? Events attract people. They do not have to be big events. If we offer good value and good packages we can turn day visitors into overnight stays. That would restore the Scottish market and improve the tourist figures.

Finally, I ask all members to spend some time in the Borders, where they will see lovely houses and lovely scenery, where there are tremendous places to walk and where the hospitality is second to none. We want people to come, to stay and to spend their money liberally.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6702555+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C708152", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tourism", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26838, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 109.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 109.0, "ID": 26838, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 205.0, "ContributionID": 708152, "EditedText": "Fergus Ewing.", "EditedTextHTML": "Fergus Ewing.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6702555+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1862E99P179C708159", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tourism", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26838, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 109.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 109.0, "ID": 26838, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Brankin, Rhona", "ID": 1862, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Midlothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Culture and Sport", "SpeakerName": "Rhona Brankin", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Culture and Sport (Rhona Brankin): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 221.0, "ContributionID": 708159, "EditedText": "I am pleased to have been given the opportunity to wind up what I am sure members will agree has been a useful and, at times, almost consensual debate on tourism. In the time available, I will try to respond to some of the points that have been raised. I hope that members will forgive me if time runs out and I do not manage to cover them all. Tourism is an issue for ministers across the Scottish Executive. As Alasdair Morrison said in opening the debate, tourism has a strong connection to my portfolio. A good way to promote the country and to attract visitors is to encourage them to come to Scotland for a specific activity or purpose. Alasdair mentioned golf and the worldwide attention that Scotland received through hosting the Open and the Walker cup. Scotland will be in the spotlight again next year when the Open returns to St Andrews—indeed, more so because it will be the millennium Open. That is an opportunity which we must not miss. There is growing interest in staging the Ryder cup in Scotland at the next available opportunity, which is in 2009. The Scottish Executive would be delighted to see a successful Scottish bid for that major event, which attracts worldwide public and media interest. I have recently had discussions with the Professional Golfers Association about what is involved in mounting a successful bid, and I will be attending the Ryder cup match in Boston this weekend to fly the flag for Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am pleased to have been given the opportunity to wind up what I am sure members will agree has been a useful and, at times, almost consensual debate on tourism. In the time available, I will try to respond to some of the points that have been raised. I hope that members will forgive me if time runs out and I do not manage to cover them all.

Tourism is an issue for ministers across the Scottish Executive. As Alasdair Morrison said in opening the debate, tourism has a strong connection to my portfolio. A good way to promote the country and to attract visitors is to encourage them to come to Scotland for a specific activity or purpose. Alasdair mentioned golf and the worldwide attention that Scotland received through hosting the Open and the Walker cup. Scotland will be in the spotlight again next year when the Open returns to St Andrews—indeed, more so because it will be the millennium Open. That is an opportunity which we must not miss.

There is growing interest in staging the Ryder cup in Scotland at the next available opportunity, which is in 2009. The Scottish Executive would be delighted to see a successful Scottish bid for that major event, which attracts worldwide public and media interest. I have recently had discussions with the Professional Golfers Association about what is involved in mounting a successful bid, and I will be attending the Ryder cup match in Boston this weekend to fly the flag for Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6702555+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C708166", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tourism", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26838, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 109.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 109.0, "ID": 26838, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Davidson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 235.0, "ContributionID": 708166, "EditedText": "I was referring to the minister, not the deputy minister.", "EditedTextHTML": "I was referring to the minister, not the deputy minister.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6702555+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708170", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tourism", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26838, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 109.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 109.0, "ID": 26838, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 243.0, "ContributionID": 708170, "EditedText": "The minister started late, which is why I allowed a couple of minutes of injury time.", "EditedTextHTML": "The minister started late, which is why I allowed a couple of minutes of injury time.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6702555+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708171", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Amnesic Shellfish Poisoning", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26839, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 245.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 245.0, "ID": 26839, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 246.0, "ContributionID": 708171, "EditedText": "We now move on to motion S1M-168, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, which seeks approval of the two Scottish statutory instruments on food protection in relation to amnesic shellfish poisoning.", "EditedTextHTML": "We now move on to motion S1M-168, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, which seeks approval of the two Scottish statutory instruments on food protection in relation to amnesic shellfish poisoning.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6702555+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C708128", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tourism", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26838, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 109.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 109.0, "ID": 26838, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fergus Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 149.0, "ContributionID": 708128, "EditedText": "I am just winding up, George.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am just winding up, George.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:00:40.809978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C708132", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tourism", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26838, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 109.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 109.0, "ID": 26838, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fergus Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 157.0, "ContributionID": 708132, "EditedText": "I do not intend to join the behoochie tendency. It is what we say, when we are here and when we are down there, that matters. And what has the Executive to say about fuel tax, VAT, the high pound and business rates? That is what Scotland wants to know. That is what my constituents want to know. It is not all about money. Lurking between the boundaries of my constituency and of John Farquhar Munro's is one of the most cost-effective tourist attractions—the Loch Ness monster. He did not cost £758 million; he was not sponsored by Sainsbury's, nor by any other of Tony's crony companies. Long after Scottish folk have not paid their 58 quid to go down to the dome, people will still be travelling to my constituency to watch out for Nessie. With those words, I wish Alasdair well in the strategy ahead.", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not intend to join the behoochie tendency. It is what we say, when we are here and when we are down there, that matters. And what has the Executive to say about fuel tax, VAT, the high pound and business rates? That is what Scotland wants to know. That is what my constituents want to know.

It is not all about money. Lurking between the boundaries of my constituency and of John Farquhar Munro's is one of the most cost-effective tourist attractions—the Loch Ness monster. He did not cost £758 million; he was not sponsored by Sainsbury's, nor by any other of Tony's crony companies. Long after Scottish folk have not paid their 58 quid to go down to the dome, people will still be travelling to my constituency to watch out for Nessie. With those words, I wish Alasdair well in the strategy ahead.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:00:40.809978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C708126", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tourism", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26838, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 109.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 109.0, "ID": 26838, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fergus Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 145.0, "ContributionID": 708126, "EditedText": "As Allan knows, since the election the chancellor, Gordon Brown, has increased the fuel tax by 22 per cent. The Highlands and Islands has the highest fuel tax in the world. I am surprised that Allan chooses to make that the subject of his intervention. As Tom Buncle said, it is clear that business rates represent a significant burden on marginal tourism. We have the power to slash business rates for small businesses in the hotel trade. We can do that in a cost-neutral way—that will probably appeal to Allan—by shifting the burden to big businesses, for which business rates are a much smaller proportion of their turnover. The high pound is a crippling cost to many— again, that is the responsibility of Mr Brown. We have the second highest VAT rate in Europe. Our tourism industry is being taxed out of existence by Gordon Brown. I say to Labour members, in all seriousness, that if Scotland is to become competitive, those matters must be addressed—Interruption. Perhaps that is Gordon Brown on the phone. One way in which we can address those matters is by slashing business rates. I hope that the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee will display a little more enthusiasm for those ideas, which I recently expressed to Allan and others. I believe that we can make this Parliament work as we want it to by using its power to help small businesses throughout Scotland, especially those in the rural areas, which have been hammered this summer. Alasdair Morrison mentioned no figures for that whatever. I hope in all sincerity—it is about time—that we get some answers from the Executive about the effect that reserved matters are having on our economy. The Executive cannot duck and dive for ever. One of these days, people in Scotland will say, \"They have nothing to say because they will not stand up to Gordon Brown, they will not say a word against Millbank and they will not do anything in case Tony Blair says that it is the wrong thing.\" One can get away with that only for so long.", "EditedTextHTML": "As Allan knows, since the election the chancellor, Gordon Brown, has increased the fuel tax by 22 per cent. The Highlands and Islands has the highest fuel tax in the world. I am surprised that Allan chooses to make that the subject of his intervention.

As Tom Buncle said, it is clear that business rates represent a significant burden on marginal tourism. We have the power to slash business rates for small businesses in the hotel trade. We can do that in a cost-neutral way—that will probably appeal to Allan—by shifting the burden to big businesses, for which business rates are a much smaller proportion of their turnover.

The high pound is a crippling cost to many— again, that is the responsibility of Mr Brown. We have the second highest VAT rate in Europe. Our tourism industry is being taxed out of existence by Gordon Brown.

I say to Labour members, in all seriousness, that if Scotland is to become competitive, those matters must be addressed—[Interruption.] Perhaps that is Gordon Brown on the phone. One way in which we can address those matters is by slashing business rates. I hope that the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee will display a little more enthusiasm for those ideas, which I recently expressed to Allan and others.

I believe that we can make this Parliament work as we want it to by using its power to help small businesses throughout Scotland, especially those in the rural areas, which have been hammered this summer. Alasdair Morrison mentioned no figures for that whatever. I hope in all sincerity—it is about time—that we get some answers from the Executive about the effect that reserved matters are having on our economy. The Executive cannot duck and dive for ever. One of these days, people in Scotland will say, \"They have nothing to say because they will not stand up to Gordon Brown, they will not say a word against Millbank and they will not do anything in case Tony Blair says that it is the wrong thing.\" One can get away with that only for so long.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:00:40.809978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C708145", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tourism", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26838, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 109.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 109.0, "ID": 26838, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fergus Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 188.0, "ContributionID": 708145, "EditedText": "Maureen mentioned the importance of training, which I am sure we all endorse. In relation to shortages, does she accept that the single biggest problem in hotels in the Highlands is the shortage of skilled chefs that has arisen since the closure of Duncraig college? If so, what should be done about it?", "EditedTextHTML": "Maureen mentioned the importance of training, which I am sure we all endorse. In relation to shortages, does she accept that the single biggest problem in hotels in the Highlands is the shortage of skilled chefs that has arisen since the closure of Duncraig college? If so, what should be done about it?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:00:40.809978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C708164", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tourism", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26838, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 109.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 109.0, "ID": 26838, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fergus Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 231.0, "ContributionID": 708164, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:00:40.809978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C708150", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tourism", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26838, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 109.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 109.0, "ID": 26838, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 201.0, "ContributionID": 708150, "EditedText": "I want to begin by referring to the amendment. Amendments should be put down when a party has something worth while to add to the motion that is before Parliament, but there is nothing in this amendment to make it worthy of support. The Government is undertaking an important tourism review. My colleague Fergus Ewing signalled our support for the concept of a review. It must set a clear strategic direction for the industry in the years to come, a direction that is sustainable and that can be delivered and supported throughout Scotland and in the wider marketplace. I am troubled by some of the documents that inform the debate on tourism, particularly the \"Pathfinders to the Parliament\" report that was produced before the election. It refers to a tourism futures sub-group that was established in 1998. We have an opportunity to make this review meaningful and a landmark in the process of tourism development. Unless we do that, we are in danger of lurching from one review to another and of failing to give a clear direction to the industry. Input from the tourist boards in the area that I represent—Perthshire Tourist Board and Angus and Dundee Tourist Board—has assisted me in my preparation for this debate. I would like to refer to a number of common themes that they have highlighted. The first concerns the way in which the industry is often maligned. I agree with what Ian Jenkins said about the danger of the sort of statements that appeared in the House of Commons Scottish Affairs Select Committee report. However, anecdotes can have a positive as well as a negative impact. I represent a county that has benefited hugely from the \"Autumn Gold\" initiative, because Perthshire happens to look absolutely stunning—even more stunning than usual—in the autumn months. I would encourage all members to visit; it is great to drive home there every night. I would also like to celebrate Project Ossian. This is a hugely imaginative and exciting project that should transform accessibility to the tourism market in Scotland. I do not understand why it is not being shouted about loudly and clearly enough, and would like to know from the minister in her summing-up what progress has been made on the project and how effectively it is contributing to the marketing and promotion of Scotland overseas. In response to Keith Raffan's intervention, the minister made a statement that is difficult to sustain: that it would not be in Scotland's interests to be marketed distinctively overseas. That strikes me as a complete contradiction in terms, although that may be because of my politics. I would like to understand what the minister is driving at when she says that it would not be in Scotland's interests for us to take control of marketing our community and our tourism, investment and business development products to a wider audience. There are inherent attractions in promoting Scotland overseas in a unified way. That is the sort of strategic thinking that underpins the initiative Scotland the brand, which not only applies to the marketing of particular products, but has been incorporated into the marketing overseas of companies such as Stagecoach. That is interesting.", "EditedTextHTML": "I want to begin by referring to the amendment. Amendments should be put down when a party has something worth while to add to the motion that is before Parliament, but there is nothing in this amendment to make it worthy of support.

The Government is undertaking an important tourism review. My colleague Fergus Ewing signalled our support for the concept of a review. It must set a clear strategic direction for the industry in the years to come, a direction that is sustainable and that can be delivered and supported throughout Scotland and in the wider marketplace.

I am troubled by some of the documents that inform the debate on tourism, particularly the \"Pathfinders to the Parliament\" report that was produced before the election. It refers to a tourism futures sub-group that was established in 1998. We have an opportunity to make this review meaningful and a landmark in the process of tourism development. Unless we do that, we are in danger of lurching from one review to another and of failing to give a clear direction to the industry.

Input from the tourist boards in the area that I represent—Perthshire Tourist Board and Angus and Dundee Tourist Board—has assisted me in my preparation for this debate. I would like to refer to a number of common themes that they have highlighted.

The first concerns the way in which the industry is often maligned. I agree with what Ian Jenkins said about the danger of the sort of statements that appeared in the House of Commons Scottish Affairs Select Committee report. However, anecdotes can have a positive as well as a negative impact. I represent a county that has benefited hugely from the \"Autumn Gold\" initiative, because Perthshire happens to look absolutely stunning—even more stunning than usual—in the autumn months. I would encourage all members to visit; it is great to drive home there every night.

I would also like to celebrate Project Ossian. This is a hugely imaginative and exciting project that should transform accessibility to the tourism market in Scotland. I do not understand why it is not being shouted about loudly and clearly enough, and would like to know from the minister in her summing-up what progress has been made on the project and how effectively it is contributing to the marketing and promotion of Scotland overseas.

In response to Keith Raffan's intervention, the minister made a statement that is difficult to sustain: that it would not be in Scotland's interests to be marketed distinctively overseas. That strikes me as a complete contradiction in terms, although that may be because of my politics. I would like to understand what the minister is driving at when she says that it would not be in Scotland's interests for us to take control of marketing our community and our tourism, investment and business development products to a wider audience. There are inherent attractions in promoting Scotland overseas in a unified way. That is the sort of strategic thinking that underpins the initiative Scotland the brand, which not only applies to the marketing of particular products, but has been incorporated into the marketing overseas of companies such as Stagecoach. That is interesting.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:18:48.0221515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C708130", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tourism", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26838, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 109.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 109.0, "ID": 26838, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fergus Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 153.0, "ContributionID": 708130, "EditedText": "I am a decent bloke, as you know.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am a decent bloke, as you know.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:00:40.809978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C708168", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tourism", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26838, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 109.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 109.0, "ID": 26838, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fergus Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 239.0, "ContributionID": 708168, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:00:40.809978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708176", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26840, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 252.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 252.0, "ID": 26840, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 254.0, "ContributionID": 708176, "EditedText": "There are three questions to be put as a result of today's business. The first question is, that amendment S1M-160.1, in the name of Mr David Davidson, which seeks to amend motion S1M-160, in the name of Mr Alasdair Morrison, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "There are three questions to be put as a result of today's business. The first question is, that amendment S1M-160.1, in the name of Mr David Davidson, which seeks to amend motion S1M-160, in the name of Mr Alasdair Morrison, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4514842+00:00" }, { "ID": "C708177", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26840, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 252.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 252.0, "ID": 26840, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 256.0, "ContributionID": 708177, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4514842+00:00" }, { "ID": "C708183", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26840, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 252.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 252.0, "ID": 26840, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 266.0, "ContributionID": 708183, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4514842+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708185", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26840, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 252.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 252.0, "ID": 26840, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 268.0, "ContributionID": 708185, "EditedText": "The third question is,that motion S1M-168, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "The third question is,

that motion S1M-168, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4514842+00:00" }, { "ID": "C708186", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26840, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 252.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 252.0, "ID": 26840, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 270.0, "ContributionID": 708186, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4514842+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708190", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Stobhill Hospital", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26841, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 274.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 274.0, "ID": 26841, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 275.0, "ContributionID": 708190, "EditedText": "We move now to the final item of today's business, which is motion S1M-126 in the name of Paul Martin, on the subject of Stobhill hospital. The debate is limited to 30 minutes. I ask members who are leaving to do so quietly out of courtesy to the member who has the debate.", "EditedTextHTML": "We move now to the final item of today's business, which is motion S1M-126 in the name of Paul Martin, on the subject of Stobhill hospital. The debate is limited to 30 minutes. I ask members who are leaving to do so quietly out of courtesy to the member who has the debate.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4514842+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708194", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Stobhill Hospital", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26841, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 274.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 274.0, "ID": 26841, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 282.0, "ContributionID": 708194, "EditedText": "I will call the minister to wind up at 5.27 pm, so there is very little time. Five members want to speak, so members should make their own calculations.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will call the minister to wind up at 5.27 pm, so there is very little time. Five members want to speak, so members should make their own calculations.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4514842+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1762E216P508C708199", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Stobhill Hospital", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26841, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 274.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 274.0, "ID": 26841, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Elder, Dorothy-Grace", "ID": 1762, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 293.0, "ContributionID": 708199, "EditedText": "How secure is secure?", "EditedTextHTML": "How secure is secure?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4514842+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1823E145P193C708200", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Stobhill Hospital", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26841, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 274.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 274.0, "ID": 26841, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jamieson, Margaret", "ID": 1823, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Kilmarnock and Loudoun" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Jamieson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Margaret Jamieson rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 295.0, "ContributionID": 708200, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4514842+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C708201", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Stobhill Hospital", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26841, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 274.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 274.0, "ID": 26841, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Simpson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 297.0, "ContributionID": 708201, "EditedText": "It is secure.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is secure.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4514842+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1762E216P508C708205", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Stobhill Hospital", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26841, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 274.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 274.0, "ID": 26841, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Elder, Dorothy-Grace", "ID": 1762, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 305.0, "ContributionID": 708205, "EditedText": "Those concerns have been expressed to Mr Martin, and expressed by Mr Martin in the press already. The type of client who might be in the secure unit is one of the concerns of the local people. This development is unsuitable for that area, and I support everything that Mr Martin has said about it.", "EditedTextHTML": "Those concerns have been expressed to Mr Martin, and expressed by Mr Martin in the press already. The type of client who might be in the secure unit is one of the concerns of the local people.

This development is unsuitable for that area, and I support everything that Mr Martin has said about it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4514842+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C708206", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Stobhill Hospital", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26841, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 274.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 274.0, "ID": 26841, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Patricia Ferguson (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 308.0, "ContributionID": 708206, "EditedText": "I will not take up much time as I realise that other members want in and Paul Martin has already covered much of the ground. Like him, I would like to stick to the terms of the motion. I would particularly like to address the aspects concerning the consultation. This is not the first suggestion that a secure unit should be sited at Stobhill. Unlike Paul, I do not live near the site, but I have done and I have relatives who do. I have been treated there and have worked there on occasion. I feel strongly about the hospital, which is the local hospital for most people in my constituency. Only a year ago, the community and mental health trust, which had responsibility for the proposal, announced that it was no longer considering Stobhill as a possible site because it could not accommodate both the ambulatory care unit and the secure care unit without undue design compromise. All of a sudden, within a few months, we find that the size of the ambulatory care unit has been reduced greatly and that it is now to be sited on land that is currently a car park. That rather conveniently leaves a greenfield site for the secure unit. When the Glasgow MSPs were invited by the health board to attend a briefing on the matter, we were issued with a question and answer note that contained 27 questions and answers. Some of the questions on the note beggared belief, frankly. If the health board is able to have that number of questions and answers prepared to brief MSPs, why can it not meet the community to discuss the questions that they have raised or any other questions that the local residents might have? Doctors and other staff in the hospital have said that they do not think that Stobhill is the right place for the secure unit. Local residents have been saying the same thing for three or four years, but the health board has decided that the consultation should be conducted through the quasi-judicial framework of the planning application process where only matters relating to planning can be raised. I know who I would consult if I were the health board—the doctors and staff of the hospital and local residents. I would not make the decision on the basis that I had been able to reduce one unit to accommodate another.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will not take up much time as I realise that other members want in and Paul Martin has already covered much of the ground. Like him, I would like to stick to the terms of the motion. I would particularly like to address the aspects concerning the consultation.

This is not the first suggestion that a secure unit should be sited at Stobhill. Unlike Paul, I do not live near the site, but I have done and I have relatives who do. I have been treated there and have worked there on occasion. I feel strongly about the hospital, which is the local hospital for most people in my constituency.

Only a year ago, the community and mental health trust, which had responsibility for the proposal, announced that it was no longer considering Stobhill as a possible site because it could not accommodate both the ambulatory care unit and the secure care unit without undue design compromise. All of a sudden, within a few months, we find that the size of the ambulatory care unit has been reduced greatly and that it is now to be sited on land that is currently a car park. That rather conveniently leaves a greenfield site for the secure unit.

When the Glasgow MSPs were invited by the health board to attend a briefing on the matter, we were issued with a question and answer note that contained 27 questions and answers. Some of the questions on the note beggared belief, frankly. If the health board is able to have that number of questions and answers prepared to brief MSPs, why can it not meet the community to discuss the questions that they have raised or any other questions that the local residents might have?

Doctors and other staff in the hospital have said that they do not think that Stobhill is the right place for the secure unit. Local residents have been saying the same thing for three or four years, but the health board has decided that the consultation should be conducted through the quasi-judicial framework of the planning application process where only matters relating to planning can be raised.

I know who I would consult if I were the health board—the doctors and staff of the hospital and local residents. I would not make the decision on the basis that I had been able to reduce one unit to accommodate another.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2234E7P20C708207", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Stobhill Hospital", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26841, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 274.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 274.0, "ID": 26841, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Aitken, Bill", "ID": 2234, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bill Aitken", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bill Aitken (Glasgow) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 311.0, "ContributionID": 708207, "EditedText": "I have much pleasure in supporting, in general terms, the content of Paul Martin's speech. It is important to talk about the matter today. It is unfortunate that the debate takes place against the background of the wide-ranging debate that we had a couple of weeks ago regarding the Noel Ruddle case. That debate was evocative and might have spilled over into this debate. People in the Stobhill area sometimes feel that they are under threat. I know—and we would all agree—that those who will be housed in this secure unit are not likely to be malevolent characters like Norman Bates, but the local population feels that it is under threat. It is clear that the health board has failed to reassure them and that that is because the consultation process failed lamentably. It is worth underlining the fact that every politician, whether at parliamentary level or council level, has to consult those who will be most affected by their decisions. There is no reason why a secure unit has to be combined with a general hospital facility. There is no clinical necessity for it. Secure units should, by definition, be secure enough to provide the people round about with the necessary degree of confidence, and they should be built away from the main bulk of the population. Local people need to feel relaxed about the fact that those who are affected by mental illness are among them, and their safety must be considered. I am sure that a number of people have raised this issue with Paul Martin, the member most immediately affected. Others have raised with me the matters of safety, falling property values and the public insecurity that such units inevitably bring about. It is certainly a matter that must be re-examined and nothing that Paul Martin has said today is at all unreasonable. I support his views and I call on the minister to recognise the public's disquiet about the provision of the facility at that locus.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have much pleasure in supporting, in general terms, the content of Paul Martin's speech. It is important to talk about the matter today. It is unfortunate that the debate takes place against the background of the wide-ranging debate that we had a couple of weeks ago regarding the Noel Ruddle case. That debate was evocative and might have spilled over into this debate. People in the Stobhill area sometimes feel that they are under threat.

I know—and we would all agree—that those who will be housed in this secure unit are not likely to be malevolent characters like Norman Bates, but the local population feels that it is under threat. It is clear that the health board has failed to reassure them and that that is because the consultation process failed lamentably. It is worth underlining the fact that every politician, whether at parliamentary level or council level, has to consult those who will be most affected by their decisions.

There is no reason why a secure unit has to be combined with a general hospital facility. There is no clinical necessity for it. Secure units should, by definition, be secure enough to provide the people round about with the necessary degree of confidence, and they should be built away from the main bulk of the population. Local people need to feel relaxed about the fact that those who are affected by mental illness are among them, and their safety must be considered. I am sure that a number of people have raised this issue with Paul

Martin, the member most immediately affected. Others have raised with me the matters of safety, falling property values and the public insecurity that such units inevitably bring about.

It is certainly a matter that must be re-examined and nothing that Paul Martin has said today is at all unreasonable. I support his views and I call on the minister to recognise the public's disquiet about the provision of the facility at that locus.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708208", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Stobhill Hospital", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26841, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 274.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 274.0, "ID": 26841, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 313.0, "ContributionID": 708208, "EditedText": "I call Fiona McLeod. You will have only one minute, I am afraid.", "EditedTextHTML": "I call Fiona McLeod. You will have only one minute, I am afraid.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2159E115P214C708210", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Stobhill Hospital", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26841, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 274.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 274.0, "ID": 26841, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Martin, Paul", "ID": 2159, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Springburn" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Paul Martin", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Paul Martin: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 318.0, "ContributionID": 708210, "EditedText": "On a point of order, Presiding Officer. Is it a possibility that we could have more time to address some of the points that have been made?", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order, Presiding Officer. Is it a possibility that we could have more time to address some of the points that have been made?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1775E171P452C708214", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Stobhill Hospital", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26841, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 274.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 274.0, "ID": 26841, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeod, Fiona", "ID": 1775, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona McLeod", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona McLeod: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 326.0, "ContributionID": 708214, "EditedText": "I will be as quick as I can.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will be as quick as I can.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708215", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Stobhill Hospital", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26841, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 274.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 274.0, "ID": 26841, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 328.0, "ContributionID": 708215, "EditedText": "I want to give the minister plenty of time to reply, because that is what the debate is about.", "EditedTextHTML": "I want to give the minister plenty of time to reply, because that is what the debate is about.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1775E171P452C708216", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Stobhill Hospital", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26841, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 274.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 274.0, "ID": 26841, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeod, Fiona", "ID": 1775, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona McLeod", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona McLeod: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 330.0, "ContributionID": 708216, "EditedText": "And I want to get a couple of questions in. On behalf of my constituents in Bishopbriggs and Kirkintilloch, I commend Paul for raising the matter. Many of my points have already been mentioned, so I will stick to the question of a full and meaningful consultation. The health board does not have a good track record on consultation so far. Greater Glasgow Health Board's web pages contain a code of practice on openness. The last time that the web pages mention anything about the secure care unit at Stobhill is in June 1998. There has been no other information since then. That does not strike me as full and meaningful consultation. At the meeting on 31 August at Tom Johnston House in Kirkintilloch, attended by more than 500 of my constituents, the main issue that was raised was the threat of the secure care unit to the future of Stobhill as a general hospital. More specifically, the unit threatens the ACAD unit, which has now been trimmed and hemmed in to a very small site, almost to the point of non-viability, as Dr Dunn explained and as Paul quoted. The minister is quoted in the Kirkintilloch, Bishopbriggs & Springburn Herald today as saying that \"it is important that local communities are fully involved in consultation\". What will she do when the people in the area say that they have not been fully and meaningfully consulted and are not satisfied with Greater Glasgow Health Board? What will she do when Glasgow City Council refuses the planning application for the secure unit in favour of the ACAD and the future of Stobhill as a general hospital?", "EditedTextHTML": "And I want to get a couple of questions in.

On behalf of my constituents in Bishopbriggs and Kirkintilloch, I commend Paul for raising the matter. Many of my points have already been mentioned, so I will stick to the question of a full and meaningful consultation. The health board does not have a good track record on consultation so far. Greater Glasgow Health Board's web pages contain a code of practice on openness. The last time that the web pages mention anything about the secure care unit at Stobhill is in June 1998. There has been no other information since then. That does not strike me as full and meaningful consultation.

At the meeting on 31 August at Tom Johnston House in Kirkintilloch, attended by more than 500 of my constituents, the main issue that was raised

was the threat of the secure care unit to the future of Stobhill as a general hospital. More specifically, the unit threatens the ACAD unit, which has now been trimmed and hemmed in to a very small site, almost to the point of non-viability, as Dr Dunn explained and as Paul quoted.

The minister is quoted in the Kirkintilloch, Bishopbriggs & Springburn Herald today as saying that

\"it is important that local communities are fully involved in consultation\".

What will she do when the people in the area say that they have not been fully and meaningfully consulted and are not satisfied with Greater Glasgow Health Board? What will she do when Glasgow City Council refuses the planning application for the secure unit in favour of the ACAD and the future of Stobhill as a general hospital?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708222", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Stobhill Hospital", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26841, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 274.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 274.0, "ID": 26841, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 343.0, "ContributionID": 708222, "EditedText": "It may help the chamber if I say that members' debates are different from general debates. They are in the hands of the member who raises the issue and, primarily, it is for that member to raise a constituency issue and for the minister to reply. We try to get agreement beforehand as to what time is allowed—the minister agreed seven minutes to reply—and other members may speak between if they can. I would like to make one other point, which is that members who participate in the debate ought to be here to listen to the minister's reply. I regret that that has not happened today.", "EditedTextHTML": "It may help the chamber if I say that members' debates are different from general debates. They are in the hands of the member who raises the issue and, primarily, it is for that member to raise a constituency issue and for the minister to reply. We try to get agreement beforehand as to what time is allowed—the minister agreed seven minutes to reply—and other members may speak between if they can.

I would like to make one other point, which is that members who participate in the debate ought to be here to listen to the minister's reply. I regret that that has not happened today.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708218", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Stobhill Hospital", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26841, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 274.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 274.0, "ID": 26841, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 335.0, "ContributionID": 708218, "EditedText": "No. You can go on until5.34 pm. Susan Deacon: I am grateful for that, and will relax slightly in making my response. I am grateful to all the members who have contributed to the debate for putting on record their views on the subject. I have listened carefully to the points that have been made. I also congratulate Paul Martin, the local constituency member, on securing this debate. As he indicated, we have met previously to discuss the issue. I am pleased to continue to listen to his views as the constituency member, and to those of other members who have constituency interests in the hospital. I note the comments that we have heard from West of Scotland members. In replying, yes, I will attempt to answer some of the specific questions that have been raised, but I will also explain quite specifically why I will not attempt to answer some of the questions. I want to put in context the development that has taken place at Stobhill and explain how that fits with the Scottish Executive's wider strategy. I will start with the latter point. I would like to recap briefly on how Glasgow's proposals for a local forensic unit fit in with the Scottish Executive's strategy for providing care for people with mental illness. I stress care for people with mental illness. That is, in essence, what a great deal of the discussion has been about. When the Scottish Office published its guidance on health and social work care for mentally disordered offenders, it was putting into practice modern thinking on the best way to care for mentally ill people. I hope that these days few people would argue that it is in the best interests of patients— and a modern and civilised society—to keep them shut up in Victorian institutions miles from their families and their homes. The guidance paper set out a framework under which patients would receive high-quality care, with proper attention given to their needs as individuals. They would be cared for, where possible, in the community rather than in institutions. They would have care that maximised their rehabilitation and gave them the best chance of an independent life. Where necessary, they would receive their care under conditions of appropriate security with due regard for public safety. The phrase appropriate security is important. It sets the context of today's debate on the new local forensic unit for Glasgow. People whose illness means that they do not need the high level of security provided by the state hospital at Carstairs should not be incarcerated there. I have no difficulty in making that statement. There has been much discussion over recent weeks—some of it well informed, some of it ill informed—about how we treat mentally disordered offenders. I hope that people agree that those who do not require to be incarcerated in the state hospital should not be there. If they can be treated in a local setting, with a lower level of security and without presenting an immediate risk to the public, that is where they should be. In many cases, such patients are being cared for in temporary facilities around Scotland that are less than ideal. The overall Scottish Executive framework provides an integrated and coherent approach to the care of those people. We must remember that many of the patients who will benefit from the local forensic unit are themselves very vulnerable people who deserve as high a standard of care and treatment from the health service as the rest of us. I hope that we will have the chance to discuss the wider issues in greater detail at a future date. That, in short, is the Scottish Executive's policy on forensic mental health services. However, a policy is worth nothing unless it is implemented. That is where local health boards and local trusts come in—it now falls to them to make a reality of the framework. That is what health authorities in Glasgow are seeking to do. We have heard a lot in the debate about the detail of the plans for Glasgow. It is worth giving some thought to whose responsibility it is to take the decisions on the unit. It is a principle firmly held by the Scottish Executive, and by most members of the Parliament, that decisions affecting local communities are best taken by those close enough to understand those local communities. The local forensic unit is just such a local service, so the location of the unit in Glasgow is a decision for the Glasgow health authorities. I respect the right of the local member, Mr Martin, to take up the issue in the Parliament. However, I hope that he understands that, as a minister, I cannot take the detailed location decisions that are being discussed today. It would be quite wrong of the Parliament to begin to embroil itself in detailed issues, when it is the job of local health boards, local authorities and other local bodies to take those decisions. It is important that that is done in discussion with local communities. I have said, in this chamber and directly to the health authorities concerned, that I want them to ensure the highest possible degree of engagement and dialogue with local communities. I also recognise that this is a sensitive issue and that locally there is great concern about it. That is in part—and not least—because of the way in which mental illness has traditionally been portrayed and stigmatised.", "EditedTextHTML": "No. You can go on until

5.34 pm. Susan Deacon: I am grateful for that, and will relax slightly in making my response.

I am grateful to all the members who have contributed to the debate for putting on record their views on the subject. I have listened carefully to the points that have been made. I also congratulate Paul Martin, the local constituency member, on securing this debate. As he indicated, we have met previously to discuss the issue. I am pleased to continue to listen to his views as the constituency member, and to those of other members who have constituency interests in the hospital. I note the comments that we have heard from West of Scotland members.

In replying, yes, I will attempt to answer some of the specific questions that have been raised, but I will also explain quite specifically why I will not attempt to answer some of the questions. I want to put in context the development that has taken place at Stobhill and explain how that fits with the Scottish Executive's wider strategy.

I will start with the latter point. I would like to recap briefly on how Glasgow's proposals for a local forensic unit fit in with the Scottish Executive's strategy for providing care for people with mental illness. I stress care for people with mental illness. That is, in essence, what a great deal of the discussion has been about. When the Scottish Office published its guidance on health and social work care for mentally disordered offenders, it was putting into practice modern thinking on the best way to care for mentally ill people. I hope that these days few people would argue that it is in the best interests of patients— and a modern and civilised society—to keep them shut up in Victorian institutions miles from their families and their homes.

The guidance paper set out a framework under which patients would receive high-quality care, with proper attention given to their needs as individuals. They would be cared for, where possible, in the community rather than in institutions. They would have care that maximised their rehabilitation and gave them the best chance of an independent life. Where necessary, they would receive their care under conditions of appropriate security with due regard for public safety. The phrase appropriate security is important. It sets the context of today's debate on the new local forensic unit for Glasgow.

People whose illness means that they do not need the high level of security provided by the state hospital at Carstairs should not be incarcerated there. I have no difficulty in making that statement. There has been much discussion over recent weeks—some of it well informed, some of it ill informed—about how we treat mentally disordered offenders. I hope that people agree that those who do not require to be incarcerated in the state hospital should not be there. If they can be treated in a local setting, with a lower level of security and without presenting an immediate risk to the public, that is where they should be.

In many cases, such patients are being cared for in temporary facilities around Scotland that are less than ideal. The overall Scottish Executive framework provides an integrated and coherent approach to the care of those people. We must remember that many of the patients who will benefit from the local forensic unit are themselves very vulnerable people who deserve as high a standard of care and treatment from the health service as the rest of us. I hope that we will have the chance to discuss the wider issues in greater detail at a future date.

That, in short, is the Scottish Executive's policy on forensic mental health services. However, a policy is worth nothing unless it is implemented. That is where local health boards and local trusts come in—it now falls to them to make a reality of the framework. That is what health authorities in Glasgow are seeking to do.

We have heard a lot in the debate about the detail of the plans for Glasgow. It is worth giving some thought to whose responsibility it is to take the decisions on the unit. It is a principle firmly held by the Scottish Executive, and by most members of the Parliament, that decisions

affecting local communities are best taken by those close enough to understand those local communities.

The local forensic unit is just such a local service, so the location of the unit in Glasgow is a decision for the Glasgow health authorities. I respect the right of the local member, Mr Martin, to take up the issue in the Parliament. However, I hope that he understands that, as a minister, I cannot take the detailed location decisions that are being discussed today. It would be quite wrong of the Parliament to begin to embroil itself in detailed issues, when it is the job of local health boards, local authorities and other local bodies to take those decisions. It is important that that is done in discussion with local communities. I have said, in this chamber and directly to the health authorities concerned, that I want them to ensure the highest possible degree of engagement and dialogue with local communities.

I also recognise that this is a sensitive issue and that locally there is great concern about it. That is in part—and not least—because of the way in which mental illness has traditionally been portrayed and stigmatised.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2159E115P214C708221", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Stobhill Hospital", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26841, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 274.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 274.0, "ID": 26841, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Martin, Paul", "ID": 2159, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Springburn" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Paul Martin", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Paul Martin: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 341.0, "ContributionID": 708221, "EditedText": "On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I made it clear that there were a number of questions that I wanted the minister to address. Is it possible to say that, in future, the questions should be answered first, before any historical piece on the framework of mental health? It is important. If a member puts a number of questions, they should be given priority in the winding-up speech.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I made it clear that there were a number of questions that I wanted the minister to address. Is it possible to say that, in future, the questions should be answered first, before any historical piece on the framework of mental health? It is important. If a member puts a number of questions, they should be given priority in the winding-up speech.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "C708058", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Wednesday 22 September 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26835, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26835, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 2.0, "ContributionID": 708058, "EditedText": "THE PRESIDING OFFICER opened the meeting at 14:30", "EditedTextHTML": "[THE PRESIDING OFFICER opened the meeting at 14:30]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708059", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Teachers' Pay", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26836, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26836, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 4.0, "ContributionID": 708059, "EditedText": "The first item of business is a statement by Mr Sam Galbraith on teachers' pay. The minister will take questions at the end of his statement, so there should be no interventions during it.", "EditedTextHTML": "The first item of business is a statement by Mr Sam Galbraith on teachers' pay. The minister will take questions at the end of his statement, so there should be no interventions during it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708062", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Teachers' Pay", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26836, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26836, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 11.0, "ContributionID": 708062, "EditedText": "I think that makes twofinallys.", "EditedTextHTML": "I think that makes two

finallys.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C708066", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Teachers' Pay", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26836, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26836, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Galbraith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 19.0, "ContributionID": 708066, "EditedText": "Sorry, Margo, much as I love you, you will have to ask me a question—and make it a nice one, please.", "EditedTextHTML": "Sorry, Margo, much as I love you, you will have to ask me a question—and make it a nice one, please.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2044E178P334C708072", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Teachers' Pay", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26836, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26836, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jenkins, Ian", "ID": 2044, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ian Jenkins", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ian Jenkins (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 31.0, "ContributionID": 708072, "EditedText": "A friend of mine used to have a poster for a film on the wall. The film starred a rather wild dog that turned out to be a good thing in the end and its name was Savage Sam. Is Savage Sam happy that his recent statements have been portrayed by the press as Galbraith taking on the teachers, as no doubt the statement today will be, as if he were engaged in a power struggle against teachers for the soul of Scottish education? Or does he agree with me that his aim is to create and work with a well-motivated, well- paid profession that feels it has a genuine opportunity to influence its own future and the direction of Scottish education? I am worried that, when the offer was given, teachers were absolutely right to throw it out. The restructuring proposals—I am not talking about the money—would have ripped the heart out of Scottish education and out of current schools management structures, and would have replaced them with something untried, untested, half-baked, nebulous and deeply demotivating to the majority of middle management in our schools.", "EditedTextHTML": "A friend of mine used to have a poster for a film on the wall. The film starred a

rather wild dog that turned out to be a good thing in the end and its name was Savage Sam. Is Savage Sam happy that his recent statements have been portrayed by the press as Galbraith taking on the teachers, as no doubt the statement today will be, as if he were engaged in a power struggle against teachers for the soul of Scottish education? Or does he agree with me that his aim is to create and work with a well-motivated, well- paid profession that feels it has a genuine opportunity to influence its own future and the direction of Scottish education?

I am worried that, when the offer was given, teachers were absolutely right to throw it out. The restructuring proposals—I am not talking about the money—would have ripped the heart out of Scottish education and out of current schools management structures, and would have replaced them with something untried, untested, half-baked, nebulous and deeply demotivating to the majority of middle management in our schools.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2044E178P334C708074", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Teachers' Pay", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26836, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26836, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jenkins, Ian", "ID": 2044, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ian Jenkins", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ian Jenkins: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 35.0, "ContributionID": 708074, "EditedText": "The question is, \"Does he agree with me?\" Laughter. As I was going to say, there was never the slightest suggestion of real consultation with the people involved: the senior teachers, principal teachers and even head teachers, whose organisation also threw the proposal out, where it belonged.", "EditedTextHTML": "The question is, \"Does he agree with me?\" [Laughter.] As I was going to say, there was never the slightest suggestion of real consultation with the people involved: the senior teachers, principal teachers and even head teachers, whose organisation also threw the proposal out, where it belonged.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C708075", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Teachers' Pay", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26836, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26836, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Galbraith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 37.0, "ContributionID": 708075, "EditedText": "Ian Jenkins is quickly learning how to make a statement while turning it into a question. You and I, Presiding Officer, are ourselves skilled in those methods. I am genuinely sad about the way in which the dispute has been portrayed. It has never been my intention to take on teachers. In fact, I went out of my way, right from the start of my period as minister, to change the language and what was to be included in documents, and to offer the olive branch. I did that for a simple reason: without teachers, we cannot deliver our high-quality education. I genuinely believe that the vast majority of teachers do an outstanding job, and I thank them for that. I am trying to find a solution, and I am just sorry that that has been portrayed otherwise. The problem that I have with the current arrangement is that it has failed to deliver for teachers. Once again, we have had three years of negotiations and have come up with an unacceptable package. How can we allow a system which results in that to persist? I want a system which recognises teachers and which values the high-quality work that they do. I hope that what I am doing is portrayed as that.", "EditedTextHTML": "Ian Jenkins is quickly learning how to make a statement while turning it into a question. You and I, Presiding Officer, are ourselves skilled in those methods.

I am genuinely sad about the way in which the dispute has been portrayed. It has never been my intention to take on teachers. In fact, I went out of my way, right from the start of my period as minister, to change the language and what was to be included in documents, and to offer the olive branch. I did that for a simple reason: without teachers, we cannot deliver our high-quality education. I genuinely believe that the vast majority of teachers do an outstanding job, and I thank them for that.

I am trying to find a solution, and I am just sorry that that has been portrayed otherwise. The problem that I have with the current arrangement is that it has failed to deliver for teachers. Once again, we have had three years of negotiations and have come up with an unacceptable package. How can we allow a system which results in that to persist? I want a system which recognises teachers and which values the high-quality work that they do. I hope that what I am doing is portrayed as that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1775E171P452C708078", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Teachers' Pay", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26836, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26836, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeod, Fiona", "ID": 1775, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona McLeod", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona McLeod (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 43.0, "ContributionID": 708078, "EditedText": "I wish to address the membership of the new committee. On the list are a local authority chief executive—", "EditedTextHTML": "I wish to address the membership of the new committee. On the list are a local authority chief executive—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708079", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Teachers' Pay", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26836, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26836, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 45.0, "ContributionID": 708079, "EditedText": "Let us have a question straight away, please.", "EditedTextHTML": "Let us have a question straight away, please.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1775E171P452C708080", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Teachers' Pay", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26836, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26836, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeod, Fiona", "ID": 1775, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona McLeod", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona McLeod: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 47.0, "ContributionID": 708080, "EditedText": "Fine. Can the minister give an assurance that the vacant post will be filled by a representative from the unions, or is the Labour party now as hostile to the unions as the Tories are?", "EditedTextHTML": "Fine. Can the minister give an assurance that the vacant post will be filled by a representative from the unions, or is the Labour party now as hostile to the unions as the Tories are?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708082", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Teachers' Pay", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26836, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26836, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 51.0, "ContributionID": 708082, "EditedText": "I call Helen Eadie.", "EditedTextHTML": "I call Helen Eadie.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708084", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Teachers' Pay", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26836, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26836, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 55.0, "ContributionID": 708084, "EditedText": "Wonderful. I will take Dennis Canavan's question.", "EditedTextHTML": "Wonderful. I will take Dennis Canavan's question.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C708085", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Teachers' Pay", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26836, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26836, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan (Falkirk West): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 57.0, "ContributionID": 708085, "EditedText": "Does the minister seriously think that he knows better than 98 per cent of Scottish teachers? Does he not realise that his mishandling of the issue is a recipe for conflict? What is not required is the setting up of another so-called independent inquiry that could go on for many months; rather, a fair negotiated settlement within the SJNC system is urgently required, one that would be in the best interests of teachers and of the children in our schools. They deserve much better than the mixture of arrogance and intransigence emanating from the minister.", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the minister seriously think that he knows better than 98 per cent of Scottish teachers? Does he not realise that his mishandling of the issue is a recipe for conflict? What is not required is the setting up of another so-called independent inquiry that could go on for many months; rather, a fair negotiated settlement within the SJNC system is urgently

required, one that would be in the best interests of teachers and of the children in our schools. They deserve much better than the mixture of arrogance and intransigence emanating from the minister.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C708086", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Teachers' Pay", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26836, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26836, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Galbraith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 59.0, "ContributionID": 708086, "EditedText": "Thank you, Dennis, for your usual comradely language. Once again, Dennis gets the matter confused. I am not arguing about the rights and wrongs of the offer. After three years, we have again come up with an offer that is completely and utterly unacceptable to teachers. How did we get into that position? What on earth are we doing, upholding a system that, after three years, produces an offer that is unacceptable to teachers and does not recognise their position? Surely the system simply does not work. What we need is a change to a system that produces a settlement that is fair, that recognises teachers and that teachers want. The current system does not deliver that. Dennis should recognise that and stop hanging on to the past.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you, Dennis, for your usual comradely language.

Once again, Dennis gets the matter confused. I am not arguing about the rights and wrongs of the offer. After three years, we have again come up with an offer that is completely and utterly unacceptable to teachers. How did we get into that position? What on earth are we doing, upholding a system that, after three years, produces an offer that is unacceptable to teachers and does not recognise their position? Surely the system simply does not work. What we need is a change to a system that produces a settlement that is fair, that recognises teachers and that teachers want. The current system does not deliver that. Dennis should recognise that and stop hanging on to the past.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1888E265P358C708097", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Beef on the Bone", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26837, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 77.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 77.0, "ID": 26837, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morgan, Alasdair", "ID": 1888, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Galloway and Upper Nithsdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morgan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alasdair Morgan (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 83.0, "ContributionID": 708097, "EditedText": "Will the minister explain why she told me in a written answer of 17 August that \"When considering the Beef Bones Regulations it would . . . not be sensible to ignore the position in the rest of the United Kingdom.\"—Official Report, Written Answers, 17 August 1999; Vol 1, p 207.— but she is happy to do that now? The key concerns of the chief medical officer, which the minister outlined in her statement, clearly apply across the whole of the United Kingdom. Will she publish in detail why and how those concerns have led the various medical officers to come to different conclusions? Can the minister explain what she means by a definitive estimate? I would have thought that a figure was either definitive or an estimate, but not both. Can the minister explain why the six-months review promised on 1 February is now so late? Why, when Professor Donaldson's previous report said that \"the review should pay particular attention to the incidence of BSE infected cattle\" and when there have been only 25 cases of BSE in Scotland this year—less than 2 per cent of the Great Britain figure—did a Scottish Executive source say yesterday: \"There is no new evidence so why we should change our position now\"? Does the minister agree that Scottish agriculture—and, indeed, the Scottish consumer— deserve better than the lack of urgency that was shown in today's statement and that the research and the six-months review that was promised on 1 February should be brought forward? Does the minister agree now more than ever with the statement that the beef-on-the-bone ban is \"a ludicrous policy\"? That is not my statement, but a statement made on 1 March this year by Charles Kennedy, then the Liberal Democrat agriculture spokesman and now the leader of the party to which the Minister for Rural Affairs belongs.", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister explain why she told me in a written answer of 17 August that

\"When considering the Beef Bones Regulations it would . . . not be sensible to ignore the position in the rest of the United Kingdom.\"—[Official Report, Written Answers, 17 August 1999; Vol 1, p 207.]— but she is happy to do that now?

The key concerns of the chief medical officer, which the minister outlined in her statement, clearly apply across the whole of the United Kingdom. Will she publish in detail why and how those concerns have led the various medical officers to come to different conclusions?

Can the minister explain what she means by a definitive estimate? I would have thought that a figure was either definitive or an estimate, but not both.

Can the minister explain why the six-months review promised on 1 February is now so late? Why, when Professor Donaldson's previous report said that

\"the review should pay particular attention to the incidence of BSE infected cattle\" and when there have been only 25 cases of BSE in Scotland this year—less than 2 per cent of the Great Britain figure—did a Scottish Executive source say yesterday:

\"There is no new evidence so why we should change our position now\"?

Does the minister agree that Scottish agriculture—and, indeed, the Scottish consumer— deserve better than the lack of urgency that was shown in today's statement and that the research and the six-months review that was promised on 1 February should be brought forward?

Does the minister agree now more than ever with the statement that the beef-on-the-bone ban is \"a ludicrous policy\"? That is not my statement, but a statement made on 1 March this year by Charles Kennedy, then the Liberal Democrat agriculture spokesman and now the leader of the party to which the Minister for Rural Affairs belongs.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2140E187P335C708101", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Beef on the Bone", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26837, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 77.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 77.0, "ID": 26837, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Rumbles, Mike", "ID": 2140, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Rumbles", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Mike Rumbles (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 91.0, "ContributionID": 708101, "EditedText": "Everyone I have come across in the beef industry agrees that the Executive's policy must put public health first. My question focuses on the medical advice that is available. If the scientific evidence of the Oxford group is not available to ministers until, we are now told, January, on what specific scientific basis does Professor Donaldson say that visible cuts of beef on the bone are now safe to eat—a statement with which Sir David Carter is in such disagreement? What has changed in the medical evidence? We need more details.", "EditedTextHTML": "Everyone I have come across in the beef industry agrees that the Executive's policy must put public health first.

My question focuses on the medical advice that is available. If the scientific evidence of the Oxford group is not available to ministers until, we are now told, January, on what specific scientific basis does Professor Donaldson say that visible cuts of beef on the bone are now safe to eat—a statement with which Sir David Carter is in such

disagreement? What has changed in the medical evidence? We need more details.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C708102", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Beef on the Bone", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26837, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 77.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 77.0, "ID": 26837, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 93.0, "ContributionID": 708102, "EditedText": "On a small point of clarification, the Oxford group's scientific advice will be available in November. The CMO for Scotland has suggested that a further review may be conducted in January 2000. It is not unreasonable for me to say that it is not for me to comment on the basis on which Professor Donaldson, the English CMO—or, indeed, the Scottish CMO—has reached his view. It is for the Government's medical advisers to issue their advice to us on the basis that they consider to be correct. I stress that not one of the CMOs is advocating a total lift of the ban. There is considerable agreement on this issue, which members who examine Professor Liam Donaldson's advice will see. As was quoted in the press today, Professor Donaldson has also reiterated the fact that no accurate idea of how many people will die from CJD after eating BSE- infected beef can be given. As I said, there is significant agreement among the CMOs. The basis for their conclusions is a matter for them, as medical advisers. Again, I urge members to examine that advice more closely if they are minded to do so.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a small point of clarification, the Oxford group's scientific advice will be available in November. The CMO for Scotland has suggested that a further review may be conducted in January 2000.

It is not unreasonable for me to say that it is not for me to comment on the basis on which Professor Donaldson, the English CMO—or, indeed, the Scottish CMO—has reached his view. It is for the Government's medical advisers to issue their advice to us on the basis that they consider to be correct. I stress that not one of the CMOs is advocating a total lift of the ban. There is considerable agreement on this issue, which members who examine Professor Liam Donaldson's advice will see. As was quoted in the press today, Professor Donaldson has also reiterated the fact that no accurate idea of how many people will die from CJD after eating BSE- infected beef can be given.

As I said, there is significant agreement among the CMOs. The basis for their conclusions is a matter for them, as medical advisers. Again, I urge members to examine that advice more closely if they are minded to do so.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C708103", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Beef on the Bone", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26837, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 77.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 77.0, "ID": 26837, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Richard Simpson (Ochil) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 95.0, "ContributionID": 708103, "EditedText": "Will the minister confirm that the number of cases of new- variant CJD and the number of deaths are still rising? Does she agree that were the Oxford study report in November on transmission from cow to calf to show that such transmission is far more common than has been believed to date, a premature total lifting of the ban could lead to further increases in the number of deaths among young people? Does she further agree that we need to review the situation carefully once the report that has been commissioned is out, rather than to prejudge it?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister confirm that the number of cases of new- variant CJD and the number of deaths are still rising? Does she agree that were the Oxford study report in November on transmission from cow to calf to show that such transmission is far more common than has been believed to date, a premature total lifting of the ban could lead to further increases in the number of deaths among young people? Does she further agree that we need to review the situation carefully once the report that has been commissioned is out, rather than to prejudge it?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708110", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tourism", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26838, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 109.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 109.0, "ID": 26838, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 110.0, "ContributionID": 708110, "EditedText": "We now move on to motion S1M-160, in the name of Alasdair Morrison, which is on tourism. I have also selected an amendment.", "EditedTextHTML": "We now move on to motion S1M-160, in the name of Alasdair Morrison, which is on tourism. I have also selected an amendment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708112", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tourism", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26838, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 109.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 109.0, "ID": 26838, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 115.0, "ContributionID": 708112, "EditedText": "Mr Morrison, do you mind if I interrupt you just for a second? I should have said at the beginning that this debate has been cut short because of the two ministerial statements. We have only one and a half hours instead of two and a half hours. We will not be able to call all the members whose names have been put forward by the business managers, so we would like some names to be withdrawn. I recommend that everyone sticks to a limit of four minutes for their speeches. I apologise for interrupting.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Morrison, do you mind if I interrupt you just for a second? I should have said at the beginning that this debate has been cut short because of the two ministerial statements. We have only one and a half hours instead of two and a half hours. We will not be able to call all the members whose names have been put forward by the business managers, so we would like some names to be withdrawn. I recommend that everyone sticks to a limit of four minutes for their speeches. I apologise for interrupting.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708114", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tourism", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26838, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 109.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 109.0, "ID": 26838, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 119.0, "ContributionID": 708114, "EditedText": "It is entirely up to you whether you take interventions, but please do not plough—let us listen to it with some joy and excitement.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is entirely up to you whether you take interventions, but please do not plough—let us listen to it with some joy and excitement.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C708116", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tourism", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26838, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 109.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 109.0, "ID": 26838, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Keith Raffan (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 123.0, "ContributionID": 708116, "EditedText": "The minister spoke about the overseas promotion that is being done in conjunction with the BTA, but the STB has the right to promote Scotland independently of the BTA. Will the minister talk about the budget for that? I ask because spending per head by overseas visitors to Scotland is much higher than spending per head by UK visitors.", "EditedTextHTML": "The minister spoke about the overseas promotion that is being done in conjunction with the BTA, but the STB has the right to promote Scotland independently of the BTA. Will the minister talk about the budget for that? I ask because spending per head by overseas visitors to Scotland is much higher than spending per head by UK visitors.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1889E118P162C708120", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tourism", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26838, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 109.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 109.0, "ID": 26838, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morrison, Mr Alasdair", "ID": 1889, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Western Isles" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morrison", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Morrison: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 131.0, "ContributionID": 708120, "EditedText": "I am going to press on.To the many industry success stories, I can add another two. The European Union of Tourist Officers convention is being held next month in Maastricht. Representatives from Scotland have been asked to make a presentation on the development and operation of the tourist information centre network in Scotland. Our European colleagues believe that our TIC network is a world leader and they want to learn from us. Many members will have attended the reception that was given by the STB last week at which Henry McLeish presented an award to Edinburgh for being the best UK city. That is a magnificent achievement, which is made better by the fact that Glasgow secured second place. The industry has generally enjoyed growth in recent years. In 1994, it generated £2.2 billion in real terms—that is, at 1998 prices. The following year, that figure increased to £2.5 billion, which was a record annual sum. In 1996, income rose again to £2.6 billion, which was another record for the industry. However, in 1998, the figure fell back to just under £2.5 billion, which, although disappointing, was still the third best year ever recorded. It is, of course, still too early to make firm predictions for 1999. In the period from January to June, overseas trips have been running at about the same level as in 1998 and, although the number of trips to Scotland from within the UK is slightly down, spend has gone up by 7 per cent. There are clear signs that the severe downturn in spend in 1998 in terms of Scots holidaying in Scotland will be reversed, which is very encouraging. Scots once again are seeing the benefits of taking holidays in their own country, for obvious reasons. I accept that those figures are for the early part of the year and include only a small part of the main season. Although the figures are encouraging, we should be cautious. There are also regional variations which will be of interest to many members.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am going to press on.

To the many industry success stories, I can add another two. The European Union of Tourist Officers convention is being held next month in Maastricht. Representatives from Scotland have been asked to make a presentation on the development and operation of the tourist information centre network in Scotland. Our European colleagues believe that our TIC network is a world leader and they want to learn from us.

Many members will have attended the reception that was given by the STB last week at which Henry McLeish presented an award to Edinburgh for being the best UK city. That is a magnificent achievement, which is made better by the fact that Glasgow secured second place.

The industry has generally enjoyed growth in recent years. In 1994, it generated £2.2 billion in real terms—that is, at 1998 prices. The following year, that figure increased to £2.5 billion, which was a record annual sum. In 1996, income rose again to £2.6 billion, which was another record for the industry. However, in 1998, the figure fell back to just under £2.5 billion, which, although disappointing, was still the third best year ever recorded.

It is, of course, still too early to make firm predictions for 1999. In the period from January to June, overseas trips have been running at about the same level as in 1998 and, although the number of trips to Scotland from within the UK is slightly down, spend has gone up by 7 per cent. There are clear signs that the severe downturn in spend in 1998 in terms of Scots holidaying in Scotland will be reversed, which is very encouraging. Scots once again are seeing the benefits of taking holidays in their own country, for obvious reasons.

I accept that those figures are for the early part of the year and include only a small part of the main season. Although the figures are encouraging, we should be cautious. There are also regional variations which will be of interest to many members.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C708135", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tourism", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26838, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 109.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 109.0, "ID": 26838, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 164.0, "ContributionID": 708135, "EditedText": "Will you wind up, please?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will you wind up, please?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C708136", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tourism", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26838, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 109.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 109.0, "ID": 26838, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 166.0, "ContributionID": 708136, "EditedText": "Our customers must have a clear understanding of those benchmarks and know exactly what to expect and to whom they should complain if their expectations have not been satisfied. Most important, sanctions must be in place if benchmarks are not met regularly. With those easily understood and rigorously applied quality standards in place, bad experiences should be eliminated. That will allow Scotland to build on and expand its share of the global tourism market.", "EditedTextHTML": "Our customers must have a clear understanding of those benchmarks and know exactly what to expect and to whom they should complain if their expectations have not been satisfied. Most important, sanctions must be in place if benchmarks are not met regularly.

With those easily understood and rigorously applied quality standards in place, bad experiences should be eliminated. That will allow Scotland to build on and expand its share of the global tourism market.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1768E72P274C708137", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tourism", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26838, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 109.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 109.0, "ID": 26838, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Murray, Elaine", "ID": 1768, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumfries" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Murray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Elaine Murray (Dumfries) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 169.0, "ContributionID": 708137, "EditedText": "I represent a constituency that is highly dependent on tourism. In 1995, 4,400 jobs in Dumfries and Galloway, constituting 8.9 per cent of all employment, were related to tourism. Tourism brought in an average of £521 per head in 1996, although controversy has surrounded the regional tourist board in recent times—not that I want to dwell on that during the debate. I am pleased that the importance of the tourist trade is being debated today, and I hope that this is the beginning of a process that will stabilise and promote that important industry. The minister identified as one of the problems the decline in spending by Scottish tourists in their own country. I am afraid that I am as guilty as anyone else of chasing the sun during the summer vacation, and I do not think that we will change the desire of many Scots for a couple of weeks of climatic reliability during the year. However, people no longer take only one holiday. We need to improve the way in which we market short breaks in Scotland to Scottish and UK residents. That impinges on three of the Scottish Tourist Board's corporate objectives: to increase visitor expenditure, to extend the tourist season and to develop tourism outwith the main tourist areas. That means recognising not only that leisure and tourism are inextricably linked, but that there are different leisure markets that need to be exploited effectively. On Monday this week, a major shopping development opened in Gretna. Gretna is better known for other tourist attractions, but it now also has a factory village outlet. It aims to attract shoppers from within two hours' driving distance— from Carlisle, Newcastle, Edinburgh, Glasgow and possibly further afield.", "EditedTextHTML": "I represent a constituency that is highly dependent on tourism. In 1995, 4,400 jobs in Dumfries and Galloway, constituting 8.9 per cent of all employment, were related to tourism. Tourism brought in an average of £521 per head in 1996, although controversy has surrounded the regional tourist board in recent times—not that I want to dwell on that during the debate. I am pleased that the importance of the tourist trade is being debated today, and I hope that this is the beginning of a process that will stabilise and promote that important industry.

The minister identified as one of the problems the decline in spending by Scottish tourists in their own country. I am afraid that I am as guilty as anyone else of chasing the sun during the summer vacation, and I do not think that we will change the desire of many Scots for a couple of weeks of climatic reliability during the year. However, people no longer take only one holiday. We need to improve the way in which we market short breaks in Scotland to Scottish and UK residents. That impinges on three of the Scottish Tourist Board's corporate objectives: to increase visitor expenditure, to extend the tourist season and to develop tourism outwith the main tourist areas. That means recognising not only that leisure and tourism are inextricably linked, but that there are different leisure markets that need to be exploited effectively.

On Monday this week, a major shopping development opened in Gretna. Gretna is better known for other tourist attractions, but it now also has a factory village outlet. It aims to attract shoppers from within two hours' driving distance— from Carlisle, Newcastle, Edinburgh, Glasgow and possibly further afield.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1962E35P56C708140", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tourism", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26838, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 109.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 109.0, "ID": 26838, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mundell, David", "ID": 1962, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Mundell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David Mundell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 175.0, "ContributionID": 708140, "EditedText": "—and in taking away the goodie bag provided. Does Dr Murray agree that one of the things that puts Scottish tourists off visiting Dumfries and Galloway is the cost of petrol, and that the single most significant thing that we could do to encourage tourists to visit Dumfries and Galloway and to tour in the traditional way would be to reduce the cost of petrol by reducing fuel tax?", "EditedTextHTML": "—and in taking away the goodie bag provided. Does Dr Murray agree that one of the things that puts Scottish tourists off visiting Dumfries and Galloway is the cost of petrol, and that the single most significant thing that we could do to encourage tourists to visit Dumfries and Galloway and to tour in the traditional way would be to reduce the cost of petrol by reducing fuel tax?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1768E72P274C708141", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tourism", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26838, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 109.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 109.0, "ID": 26838, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Murray, Elaine", "ID": 1768, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumfries" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Murray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Murray: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 177.0, "ContributionID": 708141, "EditedText": "That is not the most off-putting thing, as Dumfries and Galloway are rather nearer other parts of the UK than other parts of Scotland are. I agree that petrol prices are a problem, but much of that is to do with the oil companies, not the Government. We need to persuade shoppers not just to drive to Gretna and back, but to make a weekend break of it. We need to persuade them to turn off down the A75, book a room for a night or two and enjoy some of the other leisure pursuits available— sporting and cultural pursuits, the Burns connection, the scenery, the wildlife and the natural heritage of the area. That would turn shoppers into tourists. Fergus referred to the STB's definition of tourism. It would not be difficult to make that connection for people. Those activities can also be promoted to business visitors—even businessmen do not work all the time. I do not want to anticipate the results of a tourism strategy debate nor discussions that the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee might have about the structure of the industry. It is inappropriate for the Parliament to decide those things when there will be ample opportunity for the committee to do so. I very much hope that time and effort will go into improving the way in which we sell what we have to offer to ourselves and to others. We are far too negative and apologetic about ourselves—Henry McLeish was right about that—and if we do not believe that this country has a lot to offer, how can we expect others to do so?", "EditedTextHTML": "That is not the most off-putting thing, as Dumfries and Galloway are rather nearer other parts of the UK than other parts of Scotland are. I agree that petrol prices are a problem, but much of that is to do with the oil companies, not the Government.

We need to persuade shoppers not just to drive to Gretna and back, but to make a weekend break of it. We need to persuade them to turn off down the A75, book a room for a night or two and enjoy some of the other leisure pursuits available— sporting and cultural pursuits, the Burns connection, the scenery, the wildlife and the natural heritage of the area. That would turn shoppers into tourists. Fergus referred to the STB's definition of tourism. It would not be difficult to make that connection for people. Those activities can also be promoted to business visitors—even businessmen do not work all the time.

I do not want to anticipate the results of a tourism strategy debate nor discussions that the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee might have about the structure of the industry. It is inappropriate for the Parliament to decide those things when there will be ample opportunity for the committee to do so. I very much hope that time and effort will go into improving the way in which we sell what we have to offer to ourselves and to others. We are far too negative and apologetic about ourselves—Henry McLeish was right about that—and if we do not believe that this country has a lot to offer, how can we expect others to do so?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1840E82P158C708144", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tourism", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26838, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 109.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 109.0, "ID": 26838, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macmillan, Maureen", "ID": 1840, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Maureen Macmillan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Maureen Macmillan (Highlands and Islands) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 186.0, "ContributionID": 708144, "EditedText": "More than any other part of Scotland, the Highlands and Islands relies on the tourist industry, as members have said already. About one person in seven depends, ultimately, on tourism for their livelihood. Some parts of the Highlands have sustained their level of visitors this year—particularly Skye, despite fuel crises and the Skye bridge tolls. Rather than simply saying that numbers of visitors are down because of the fuel crisis, we should recognise that there is something else at work. I was a tourist in Sutherland last weekend. The hotelier where I stayed said that fuel prices were not an issue. The amount of salmon coming up the river was an issue for him. Some people think that the dearth of salmon is a direct result of global warming and that global warming is a result of fuel emissions. Please could we have some joined-up thinking on this matter? The bed and breakfast market in the Highlands has done particularly well this year, although other areas and sectors have seen a drop in numbers. However, the drop is not disastrous and we should remember that we are speaking of small fluctuations, not enormous drops. There has been very bad publicity over the summer and our faults have been blazoned across the newspapers and reinforced by anecdotes throughout the Highlands. There is nothing that Highlanders love more than telling terrible stories about their own tourist industry. We must stop doing that. We seem to take a delight in putting ourselves down. We must stop being so negative, because we have a very high-quality tourist experience in the Highlands and we must stop denying that. We must work on that attitude. Our challenge is to continue to raise the quality and to market ourselves more effectively. We must target particular niche markets, such as wildlife— and I do not just mean ceilidhs—and culture, particularly in more remote areas. For example, only 2 per cent of our visitors come for golfing holidays, yet Scotland is the home of golf. I am glad to hear that there are plans to redress that situation. Our marketing must be more focused, modern and up to date. We are already developing Project Ossian, as Alasdair mentioned, which will allow us to access information on the website. The challenge to improve our marketing and quality must continue. Some people have said that compulsory registration is the way forward, with training, sanctions and inspectors. At the moment, registration and quality control are voluntary. I am a bit wary of compulsion, as it might drive away that sector of the Highland industry that is most attractive—the small B and B in remote areas. Ultimately, compulsory registration may be appropriate for hotels and restaurants, but I favour the carrot rather than the stick. We should be careful not to drive away the small B and B. Training is crucial, but college courses in hospitality must be backed by good management practices and that does not always happen. We need a well-paid and well-motivated work force in the tourist industry. In the past, the industry has had a bad image and we must get away from the idea that service is somehow servile; it is not, although part of our history makes us feel that it is.", "EditedTextHTML": "More than any other part of Scotland, the Highlands and Islands relies on the tourist industry, as members have said already. About one person in seven depends, ultimately, on tourism for their livelihood. Some parts of the Highlands have sustained their level of visitors this year—particularly Skye, despite fuel crises and the Skye bridge tolls. Rather than simply saying that numbers of visitors are down because of the fuel crisis, we should recognise that there is something else at work.

I was a tourist in Sutherland last weekend. The hotelier where I stayed said that fuel prices were not an issue. The amount of salmon coming up the river was an issue for him. Some people think that the dearth of salmon is a direct result of global warming and that global warming is a result of fuel emissions. Please could we have some joined-up thinking on this matter?

The bed and breakfast market in the Highlands has done particularly well this year, although other areas and sectors have seen a drop in numbers. However, the drop is not disastrous and we should remember that we are speaking of small fluctuations, not enormous drops. There has been very bad publicity over the summer and our faults have been blazoned across the newspapers and reinforced by anecdotes throughout the Highlands. There is nothing that Highlanders love more than telling terrible stories about their own tourist industry. We must stop doing that. We seem to take a delight in putting ourselves down. We must stop being so negative, because we have a very high-quality tourist experience in the Highlands and we must stop denying that. We must work on that attitude.

Our challenge is to continue to raise the quality and to market ourselves more effectively. We must target particular niche markets, such as wildlife— and I do not just mean ceilidhs—and culture, particularly in more remote areas. For example, only 2 per cent of our visitors come for golfing holidays, yet Scotland is the home of golf. I am glad to hear that there are plans to redress that situation.

Our marketing must be more focused, modern and up to date. We are already developing Project

Ossian, as Alasdair mentioned, which will allow us to access information on the website. The challenge to improve our marketing and quality must continue. Some people have said that compulsory registration is the way forward, with training, sanctions and inspectors. At the moment, registration and quality control are voluntary. I am a bit wary of compulsion, as it might drive away that sector of the Highland industry that is most attractive—the small B and B in remote areas. Ultimately, compulsory registration may be appropriate for hotels and restaurants, but I favour the carrot rather than the stick. We should be careful not to drive away the small B and B.

Training is crucial, but college courses in hospitality must be backed by good management practices and that does not always happen. We need a well-paid and well-motivated work force in the tourist industry. In the past, the industry has had a bad image and we must get away from the idea that service is somehow servile; it is not, although part of our history makes us feel that it is.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C708147", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tourism", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26838, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 109.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 109.0, "ID": 26838, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 193.0, "ContributionID": 708147, "EditedText": "I am rather disappointed by some of the contributions today. Maureen Macmillan referred to small fluctuations in the Highlands, but a small fluctuation can mean bankruptcy. The reported drop of 6 per cent this year is an official figure from the Highlands of Scotland Tourist Board, not a fabrication of anyone's imagination, and is likely to be an underestimate. That 6 per cent drop must be considered against the background of last year's drop of almost 20 per cent. Please do not insult people by talking about small or minor fluctuations. If the review is to mean anything, it must mean a partnership in which we listen to everyone in the industry. Now I turn to Alasdair Morrison. A few weeks ago, in response to a Scottish nationalist member's question, Alasdair said that tourist numbers had not changed. I am glad that he acknowledged today that although numbers are up in Edinburgh, they are seriously down in the Highlands and elsewhere. I hope that the Scottish Executive's approach to the review will be similar to that endorsed by Henry McLeish when I met him in Inverness. He acknowledged, examined and discussed the problems in a mature, responsible and professional manner, in contrast to the dismissive comments that have been made today. For example, Elaine Murray said that fuel duty is a minimal part of the price of petrol; in fact, it is 85 per cent of the price. We need a bit of honesty here. As Maureen and Fergus said, tourism is the crucial industry in the Scottish Highlands. This week the Highlands of Scotland Tourist Board announced that tourist numbers for the far north of Scotland have fallen by 16 per cent; that is the most dramatic drop this year. Perhaps Maureen Macmillan's bed and breakfast weekend in Sutherland was all right, but that is not the whole picture. We must look at the problem professionally, rather than having a bit of by-thebar chat. Another point for Alasdair Morrison to consider is that Caledonian MacBrayne passenger numbers for this summer have fallen by 20,000 while car numbers are down by 4,000. We must have a proper review and an honest debate. I am concerned about many aspects of the Scottish Tourist Board, but it exists for one reason: to promote and market Scotland. Any marketing organisation can plan for the future only if it devotes enough of its budget to marketing and knows its current and potential customer base. The Scottish Tourist Board devotes 12 per cent of its budget to marketing while the rest goes on salaries, expenses, buildings and other costs. As of yesterday, the Highlands of Scotland Tourist Board still did not have breakdown figures for overseas visitors for 1998, as it is planning for 2000. The Scottish Tourist Board is supposed to be a marketing organisation, but it cannot get the information that it requires from the Department of Trade and Industry. I suggested that it talk to its counterparts, and to Brian Wilson. It is not good enough to be two years behind with figures. The clear message from the industry is that we must promote Scotland. There can be no excuses. Henry McLeish tells us today in The Scotsman that Scots should believe in themselves. That is not the issue: we need the Scottish Tourist Board to believe in Scotland. Finally, I want to mention Project Ossian. It has already cost £5 million. It is funded from the marketing budget. After two years it is still not up and running. It does not sell tourist beds in Scotland: it is simply the yellow pages of the tourist industry. If we are to take it seriously, we must ensure that it moves along in a business-like manner to provide the services that are required.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am rather disappointed by some of the contributions today. Maureen Macmillan referred to small fluctuations in the Highlands, but a small fluctuation can mean bankruptcy. The reported drop of 6 per cent this year is an official figure from the Highlands of Scotland Tourist Board, not a fabrication of anyone's imagination, and is likely to be an underestimate. That 6 per cent drop must be considered against the background of last year's drop of almost 20 per cent. Please do not insult people by talking about small or minor fluctuations. If the review is to mean anything, it must mean a partnership in which we listen to everyone in the industry.

Now I turn to Alasdair Morrison. A few weeks ago, in response to a Scottish nationalist member's question, Alasdair said that tourist numbers had not changed. I am glad that he acknowledged today that although numbers are up in Edinburgh, they are seriously down in the Highlands and elsewhere. I hope that the Scottish Executive's approach to the review will be similar to that endorsed by Henry McLeish when I met him in Inverness. He acknowledged, examined and discussed the problems in a mature, responsible and professional manner, in contrast to the dismissive comments that have been made today. For example, Elaine Murray said that fuel duty is a minimal part of the price of petrol; in fact, it is 85 per cent of the price. We need a bit of honesty here.

As Maureen and Fergus said, tourism is the crucial industry in the Scottish Highlands. This week the Highlands of Scotland Tourist Board announced that tourist numbers for the far north of Scotland have fallen by 16 per cent; that is the most dramatic drop this year. Perhaps Maureen Macmillan's bed and breakfast weekend in Sutherland was all right, but that is not the whole picture. We must look at the problem professionally, rather than having a bit of by-thebar chat.

Another point for Alasdair Morrison to consider is that Caledonian MacBrayne passenger numbers for this summer have fallen by 20,000 while car numbers are down by 4,000. We must have a proper review and an honest debate.

I am concerned about many aspects of the Scottish Tourist Board, but it exists for one reason: to promote and market Scotland. Any marketing organisation can plan for the future only if it devotes enough of its budget to marketing and knows its current and potential customer base. The Scottish Tourist Board devotes 12 per cent of its budget to marketing while the rest goes on salaries, expenses, buildings and other costs. As of yesterday, the Highlands of Scotland Tourist

Board still did not have breakdown figures for overseas visitors for 1998, as it is planning for 2000.

The Scottish Tourist Board is supposed to be a marketing organisation, but it cannot get the information that it requires from the Department of Trade and Industry. I suggested that it talk to its counterparts, and to Brian Wilson. It is not good enough to be two years behind with figures. The clear message from the industry is that we must promote Scotland. There can be no excuses. Henry McLeish tells us today in The Scotsman that Scots should believe in themselves. That is not the issue: we need the Scottish Tourist Board to believe in Scotland.

Finally, I want to mention Project Ossian. It has already cost £5 million. It is funded from the marketing budget. After two years it is still not up and running. It does not sell tourist beds in Scotland: it is simply the yellow pages of the tourist industry. If we are to take it seriously, we must ensure that it moves along in a business-like manner to provide the services that are required.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6702555+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1862E99P179C708161", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tourism", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26838, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 109.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 109.0, "ID": 26838, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Brankin, Rhona", "ID": 1862, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Midlothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Culture and Sport", "SpeakerName": "Rhona Brankin", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Rhona Brankin: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 225.0, "ContributionID": 708161, "EditedText": "I am sorry, but I must press on, as I have a whole load of points that I must get through. In Boston, I will lend my support to the bid to bring the 2009 Ryder cup match to the country that is the home of golf. Other examples of sports tourism that attract visitors from the United Kingdom and overseas include walking, fishing and sailing. Scotland has a competitive advantage over other destinations when promoting those activities thanks to our spectacular natural environment. Of course, it is essential that in developing such activities, we take great care not to affect adversely the environment, which is Scotland's greatest tourism asset. As has been mentioned, one of Scotland's largest niche markets is cultural tourism. Scotland's museums and galleries alone received more than 9.5 million visitors in 1998. Scottish history, culture, arts and of course language are famous throughout the world. Images of Scottish built heritage are instantly recognisable. In fact, Edinburgh Castle has received 1¼ million visitors so far this year. For some time, the link between culture and tourism has been developed and fostered by a public-private partnership whose remit is to promote closer working relationships among tourism, arts and economic development bodies. Last year, the group reviewed its activities and produced a three-year action plan. Guidelines on developing cultural tourism have been produced for area tourist boards and other local agencies, for use in area tourism strategies. Local groups of arts and tourism organisations have been developed, and the Scottish Tourist Board and the Scottish Arts Council are leading a traditional music initiative. The group also promotes a cultural tourism award, which is sponsored by the Bank of Scotland. Much has been achieved, but we look to see whether we can do more. Our consultation on a national cultural strategy will seek views on how culture, in its broadest sense, impacts on all aspects of government. If we are to preserve and enhance Scotland's rich diversity of urban areas and natural landscapes, and to continue to attract visitors, we must have proper regard for the quality of our new buildings and of new developments in our towns, cities and countryside. That is why we have made a commitment to develop a policy on architecture for Scotland. The economic benefits of architecture and its role in promoting tourism are among the issues that are covered by the architecture framework document that I will launch next week. I have emphasised the link between tourism and sports and culture, as they are my particular remit. However, there are many more examples of cross-cutting issues that relate to tourism. The tourism industry is not self-contained. Like any other industry, if it is continually to improve and to compete, it must address all the factors that determine success, such as skills, training, marketing and, above all, quality of service. All the departments in the Scottish Executive will continue to work together to ensure that the tourism industry in Scotland remains competitive, but the bottom line is that responsibility for success rests with the industry.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry, but I must press on, as I have a whole load of points that I must get through.

In Boston, I will lend my support to the bid to bring the 2009 Ryder cup match to the country that is the home of golf.

Other examples of sports tourism that attract visitors from the United Kingdom and overseas include walking, fishing and sailing. Scotland has a competitive advantage over other destinations when promoting those activities thanks to our spectacular natural environment. Of course, it is essential that in developing such activities, we take great care not to affect adversely the environment, which is Scotland's greatest tourism asset.

As has been mentioned, one of Scotland's largest niche markets is cultural tourism. Scotland's museums and galleries alone received more than 9.5 million visitors in 1998. Scottish history, culture, arts and of course language are famous throughout the world. Images of Scottish built heritage are instantly recognisable. In fact, Edinburgh Castle has received 1¼ million visitors so far this year.

For some time, the link between culture and tourism has been developed and fostered by a public-private partnership whose remit is to promote closer working relationships among tourism, arts and economic development bodies. Last year, the group reviewed its activities and produced a three-year action plan. Guidelines on developing cultural tourism have been produced for area tourist boards and other local agencies, for use in area tourism strategies. Local groups of arts and tourism organisations have been developed, and the Scottish Tourist Board and the Scottish Arts Council are leading a traditional music initiative. The group also promotes a cultural tourism award, which is sponsored by the Bank of Scotland. Much has been achieved, but we look to see whether we can do more.

Our consultation on a national cultural strategy will seek views on how culture, in its broadest sense, impacts on all aspects of government. If we are to preserve and enhance Scotland's rich diversity of urban areas and natural landscapes, and to continue to attract visitors, we must have proper regard for the quality of our new buildings and of new developments in our towns, cities and countryside. That is why we have made a commitment to develop a policy on architecture for Scotland. The economic benefits of architecture

and its role in promoting tourism are among the issues that are covered by the architecture framework document that I will launch next week.

I have emphasised the link between tourism and sports and culture, as they are my particular remit. However, there are many more examples of cross-cutting issues that relate to tourism. The tourism industry is not self-contained. Like any other industry, if it is continually to improve and to compete, it must address all the factors that determine success, such as skills, training, marketing and, above all, quality of service. All the departments in the Scottish Executive will continue to work together to ensure that the tourism industry in Scotland remains competitive, but the bottom line is that responsibility for success rests with the industry.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6702555+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1893E47P78C708162", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tourism", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26838, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 109.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 109.0, "ID": 26838, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnstone, Alex", "ID": 1893, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Johnstone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Johnstone: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 227.0, "ContributionID": 708162, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6702555+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1862E99P179C708165", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tourism", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26838, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 109.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 109.0, "ID": 26838, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Brankin, Rhona", "ID": 1862, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Midlothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Culture and Sport", "SpeakerName": "Rhona Brankin", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Rhona Brankin: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 233.0, "ContributionID": 708165, "EditedText": "No, I am sorry; I want to continue, but I will cover many of Fergus Ewing's points. We need to get the strategy right. We need to identify the key actions that will improve our tourism industry, and to identify who is responsible for taking them forward. We need to release the ideas, energy and potential of those who work in the tourism industry. The Scottish Executive is committed to a programme of action that will put tourism in the best position to compete and win. On the matter of a minister for tourism, tourism is at the heart of the Executive's main economic department, which is where it ought to be. Tourism is well placed to benefit from our drive to link enterprise and lifelong learning, which is the key to a prosperous future. Alasdair Morrison has specific responsibility for tourism within the enterprise and lifelong learning department. As Alasdair Morrison said, funding for area tourist boards must be examined carefully. It is important that we get this right. We are willing to listen to all the arguments. We reject the accusation of over-regulation. Area tourist boards are membership organisations, whose policies are dictated by their members. The STB's quality assurance scheme is widely supported, and is the key to improving quality in the industry. On taxation, it is important to look at the whole picture. The UK VAT threshold—£50,000—is the highest in the EU; that helps many small tourism businesses. UK corporation tax is lower than in most other EU states. Food and travel are zero- rated. The final flaw in Mr Davidson's speech was the assertion that Alasdair Morrison had been a town planner. Alasdair Morrison is under the impression that he was a BBC journalist.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I am sorry; I want to continue, but I will cover many of Fergus Ewing's points.

We need to get the strategy right. We need to identify the key actions that will improve our tourism industry, and to identify who is responsible for taking them forward. We need to release the ideas, energy and potential of those who work in the tourism industry. The Scottish Executive is committed to a programme of action that will put tourism in the best position to compete and win.

On the matter of a minister for tourism, tourism is at the heart of the Executive's main economic department, which is where it ought to be. Tourism is well placed to benefit from our drive to link enterprise and lifelong learning, which is the key to a prosperous future. Alasdair Morrison has specific responsibility for tourism within the enterprise and lifelong learning department.

As Alasdair Morrison said, funding for area tourist boards must be examined carefully. It is important that we get this right. We are willing to listen to all the arguments.

We reject the accusation of over-regulation. Area tourist boards are membership organisations, whose policies are dictated by their members. The STB's quality assurance scheme is widely supported, and is the key to improving quality in the industry.

On taxation, it is important to look at the whole picture. The UK VAT threshold—£50,000—is the highest in the EU; that helps many small tourism businesses. UK corporation tax is lower than in most other EU states. Food and travel are zero- rated.

The final flaw in Mr Davidson's speech was the assertion that Alasdair Morrison had been a town planner. Alasdair Morrison is under the impression that he was a BBC journalist.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6702555+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1862E99P179C708167", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tourism", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26838, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 109.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 109.0, "ID": 26838, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Brankin, Rhona", "ID": 1862, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Midlothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Culture and Sport", "SpeakerName": "Rhona Brankin", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Rhona Brankin: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 237.0, "ContributionID": 708167, "EditedText": "I see—was he not a footballer?I have covered Fergus Ewing's point about a minister for tourism. We are willing to listen to views on structures. Fergus Ewing and Mr Swinney welcomed the fact that we are having a review and developing a tourism strategy. However, it is important to find hard evidence that change is needed. It is too easy to fiddle with structures; it is more important to consider the underlying issues. Despite what has been said about Scotland being too expensive, tourist spending in Scotland has grown strongly in recent years. Last year was disappointing, but the early signs this year are encouraging. Come on—let us not talk Scotland down.", "EditedTextHTML": "I see—was he not a footballer?

I have covered Fergus Ewing's point about a minister for tourism.

We are willing to listen to views on structures. Fergus Ewing and Mr Swinney welcomed the fact that we are having a review and developing a tourism strategy. However, it is important to find hard evidence that change is needed. It is too easy to fiddle with structures; it is more important to consider the underlying issues.

Despite what has been said about Scotland being too expensive, tourist spending in Scotland has grown strongly in recent years. Last year was disappointing, but the early signs this year are encouraging. Come on—let us not talk Scotland down.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6702555+00:00" }, { "ID": "C708173", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Amnesic Shellfish Poisoning", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26839, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 245.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 245.0, "ID": 26839, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 249.0, "ContributionID": 708173, "EditedText": "That the Parliament agrees that the following instruments be approved—", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament agrees that the following instruments be approved—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6702555+00:00" }, { "ID": "C708175", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Amnesic Shellfish Poisoning", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26839, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 245.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 245.0, "ID": 26839, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 251.0, "ContributionID": 708175, "EditedText": "The Food Protection (Emergency Prohibitions) (Amnesic Shellfish Poisoning) (West Coast) (No. 2) (Scotland) Order 1999 (SSI 1999/50).—Mr McCabe.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Food Protection (Emergency Prohibitions) (Amnesic Shellfish Poisoning) (West Coast) (No. 2) (Scotland) Order 1999 (SSI 1999/50).—[Mr McCabe.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6702555+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C708070", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Teachers' Pay", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26836, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26836, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Brian Monteith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 27.0, "ContributionID": 708070, "EditedText": "I see myself as a generous chap so I welcome the minister telling us officially, at last, what he intends to do. There have been a number of other opportunities to do so, not least at the Education, Culture and Sport Committee. He is Labour's third education minister in two years. Is he aware of his predecessors' criticisms of the possible abolition of the SJNC? Since he is adopting a policy that the Conservatives have put forward for more than two years, I would be happy to share a poke of chips with him so that he can hear and adopt more of our policies. The Cubie committee has a budget of some £700,000 over six months and the McCrone committee—as no doubt it will be called—will take eight months to report. How much will it cost? Surely it would be better to use the Advisory, Conciliation and Arbitration Service, which would be at no cost to the Scottish taxpayer and could bring forward a settlement that the minister would still be an arbiter for and could still bring to the Parliament. Since that is currently in the statute he could act immediately.", "EditedTextHTML": "I see myself as a generous chap so I welcome the minister telling us officially, at last, what he intends to do. There have been a number of other opportunities to do so, not least at the Education, Culture and Sport Committee.

He is Labour's third education minister in two years. Is he aware of his predecessors' criticisms of the possible abolition of the SJNC? Since he is adopting a policy that the Conservatives have put forward for more than two years, I would be happy to share a poke of chips with him so that he can hear and adopt more of our policies.

The Cubie committee has a budget of some £700,000 over six months and the McCrone committee—as no doubt it will be called—will take eight months to report. How much will it cost? Surely it would be better to use the Advisory, Conciliation and Arbitration Service, which would be at no cost to the Scottish taxpayer and could bring forward a settlement that the minister would still be an arbiter for and could still bring to the Parliament. Since that is currently in the statute he could act immediately.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C708071", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Teachers' Pay", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26836, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26836, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Galbraith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 29.0, "ContributionID": 708071, "EditedText": "Mr Monteith makes great play of Conservative policies—I see one of their front bench spokesmen, Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish, is in favour of strike action. That is a policy that Mr Monteith might want to endorse. It is interesting that Tories are now in favour of strikes. I will expect them to be behind every worker, manning the barricades, at the picket lines, secondary picketing. I see Mr Monteith has not risen to support that. He asked me how much the committee will cost. I do not know the answer, but it will have a wellresourced secretariat; I will write to him about that. It will be money well spent if it produces a solution. The purpose of the long-term independent committee of inquiry is not to find a solution to the current dispute, which has to go back to the SJNC to be resolved, but to do two things: to come up with the ideal terms and conditions for teachers and with a mechanism that prevents us getting into this problem year in, year out.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Monteith makes great play of Conservative policies—I see one of their front bench spokesmen, Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish, is in favour of strike action. That is a policy that Mr Monteith might want to endorse. It is interesting that Tories are now in favour of strikes. I will expect them to be behind every worker, manning the barricades, at the picket lines, secondary picketing.

I see Mr Monteith has not risen to support that. He asked me how much the committee will cost. I do not know the answer, but it will have a wellresourced secretariat; I will write to him about that. It will be money well spent if it produces a solution. The purpose of the long-term independent committee of inquiry is not to find a solution to the current dispute, which has to go back to the SJNC to be resolved, but to do two things: to come up with the ideal terms and conditions for teachers and with a mechanism that prevents us getting into this problem year in, year out.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1828E200P487C708065", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Teachers' Pay", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26836, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26836, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacDonald, Margo", "ID": 1828, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margo MacDonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Margo MacDonald (Lothians) (SNP) rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 17.0, "ContributionID": 708065, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708067", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Teachers' Pay", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26836, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26836, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 21.0, "ContributionID": 708067, "EditedText": "We cannot have interventions in the middle of answers.", "EditedTextHTML": "We cannot have interventions in the middle of answers.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C708081", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Teachers' Pay", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26836, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26836, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Galbraith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 49.0, "ContributionID": 708081, "EditedText": "I understand that the Tories are now on the union side. They want them to go on strike. I would point out that the Confederation of British Industry is not represented either. We tried to get a balanced committee, representing everyone. The other member will be decided by the chairman, in consultation with myself.", "EditedTextHTML": "I understand that the Tories are now on the union side. They want them to go on strike. I would point out that the Confederation of British Industry is not represented either. We tried to get a balanced committee, representing everyone. The other member will be decided by the chairman, in consultation with myself.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2090E83P266C708087", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Teachers' Pay", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26836, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26836, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAllion, Mr John", "ID": 2090, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dundee East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John McAllion", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr John McAllion (Dundee East) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 61.0, "ContributionID": 708087, "EditedText": "Irrespective of what the committee of inquiry may or may not recommend, will my comrade the minister reassure the Parliament that the Executive will stand by the principle of a national agreement on pay and conditions for teachers? The agreement should apply evenly across Scotland and should be achieved through collective bargaining by, on the one hand, the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities, which is the employer, and, on the other, the teachers' unions.", "EditedTextHTML": "Irrespective of what the committee of inquiry may or may not recommend, will my comrade the minister reassure the Parliament that the Executive will stand by the principle of a national agreement on pay and conditions for teachers? The agreement should apply evenly across Scotland and should be achieved through collective bargaining by, on the one hand, the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities, which is the employer, and, on the other, the teachers' unions.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C708088", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Teachers' Pay", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26836, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26836, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Galbraith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 63.0, "ContributionID": 708088, "EditedText": "Without giving the committee a steer, my answer is an unequivocal yes.", "EditedTextHTML": "Without giving the committee a steer, my answer is an unequivocal yes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C708090", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Teachers' Pay", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26836, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26836, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Galbraith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 67.0, "ContributionID": 708090, "EditedText": "May I explain again that the committee is charged with two tasks. The first is the consideration of a suitable package of terms and conditions for teachers. The dispute will have to be settled this year, within the SJNC system, but we will certainly recommend that the committee consider the correct structure for pay and conditions for teachers. The second task is the consideration of formal arrangements for progress in future years. We will examine the committee's recommendations when they are passed to us. I am sure that all members will have a view on those arrangements and will wish to discuss the matter at that time.", "EditedTextHTML": "May I explain again that the committee is charged with two tasks. The first is the consideration of a suitable package of terms and conditions for teachers. The dispute will have to be settled this year, within the SJNC system, but we will certainly recommend that the committee consider the correct structure for pay and conditions for teachers. The second task is the consideration of formal arrangements for progress in future years.

We will examine the committee's recommendations when they are passed to us. I am sure that all members will have a view on those arrangements and will wish to discuss the matter at that time.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1970E66P288C708091", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Teachers' Pay", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26836, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26836, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNulty, Des", "ID": 1970, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Clydebank and Milngavie" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Des McNulty", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Des McNulty (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 69.0, "ContributionID": 708091, "EditedText": "Does the minister agree that everyone in education recognises that there is a need for change, as the debate has been going on for a long time? They welcome the opportunity that the committee gives to all parties—to political parties in the chamber and to everyone in education—to contribute constructively to a satisfactory outcome.", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the minister agree that everyone in education recognises that there is a need for change, as the debate has been going on for a long time? They welcome the opportunity that the committee gives to all parties—to political parties in the chamber and to everyone in education—to contribute constructively to a satisfactory outcome.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C708093", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Teachers' Pay", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26836, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26836, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bruce Crawford (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 73.0, "ContributionID": 708093, "EditedText": "I suspect that the reality is that the Executive was relieved that the teachers voted the pay deal down. We should examine the figures. We are told that the pay bill was £180 million and that the minister had offered an additional £8 million. The reality is that the gap was £14 million. Would the Executive have come up with the extra £6 million to finance the pay deal, had it been accepted, or would classroom assistants have been sacrificed instead?", "EditedTextHTML": "I suspect that the reality is that the Executive was relieved that the teachers voted the pay deal down. We should examine the figures. We are told that the pay bill was £180 million and that the minister had offered an additional £8 million. The reality is that the gap was £14 million. Would the Executive have come up with the extra £6 million to finance the pay deal, had it been accepted, or would classroom assistants have been sacrificed instead?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C708094", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Teachers' Pay", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26836, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26836, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Galbraith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 75.0, "ContributionID": 708094, "EditedText": "I hope that the member was listening to what I said as I went through my statement. The cost of the pay deal was £187 million. We put in £8 million simply to deal with the immediate position. Mr Crawford was in COSLA and knows the reality of the situation. While I know his views on the settlement, I suspect that they are not what he expressed today. Mr Crawford should be very careful what he says on this. He has been heard around the corridors of power in local government. We always made it clear that we were willing to be flexible in the future and to help fill the gap. The local authorities would have to find some efficiencies, but we were certainly prepared to be flexible. On that subject, I hear that Mr Crawford's party leader now plans to find tuition fees from efficiencies. Splendid. There we are then.", "EditedTextHTML": "I hope that the member was listening to what I said as I went through my statement. The cost of the pay deal was £187 million. We put in £8 million simply to deal with the immediate position. Mr Crawford was in COSLA and knows the reality of the situation. While I know his views on the settlement, I suspect that they are not what he expressed today. Mr Crawford should be very careful what he says on this. He has been heard around the corridors of power in local government.

We always made it clear that we were willing to be flexible in the future and to help fill the gap. The local authorities would have to find some efficiencies, but we were certainly prepared to be flexible. On that subject, I hear that Mr Crawford's party leader now plans to find tuition fees from efficiencies. Splendid. There we are then.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708095", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Beef on the Bone", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26837, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 77.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 77.0, "ID": 26837, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 78.0, "ContributionID": 708095, "EditedText": "The next ministerial statement is on beef on the bone. The Minister for Health and Community Care will take questions at the end of her statement. I remind members that we have only a short time for this item and that we prefer questions to statements disguised as questions.", "EditedTextHTML": "The next ministerial statement is on beef on the bone. The Minister for Health and Community Care will take questions at the end of her statement. I remind members that we have only a short time for this item and that we prefer questions to statements disguised as questions.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C708098", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Beef on the Bone", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26837, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 77.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 77.0, "ID": 26837, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 85.0, "ContributionID": 708098, "EditedText": "Alasdair Morgan put a number of questions—I lost count at eight—but I will attempt to answer them in turn. I was quoted as having said previously that we should pay attention to what was happening in the rest of the UK. Absolutely—I repeated that in my statement today, and ministers in other parts of the UK have said the same thing this week. We recognise that it is in the best interests of all parts of the UK for us to co-operate and have an agreed UK policy position on this issue. We have constantly striven for that and continue to have it. As I said in last week's debate, we have remained in contact with colleagues across the UK on this matter because we recognise that there is considerable cross-border traffic in beef and beef products. A Scottish isolationist position, or any political posturing on this issue by us in Scotland, would be wholly inappropriate and detrimental to public health. There is no contradiction in the position that we have adopted—quite the opposite. In a spirit of openness and in the interests of clarity, we are more than happy to make publicly available the current advice that Scottish ministers have received from Sir David Carter, the Scottish chief medical officer. That advice will be—if it is not already—available through the Scottish Parliament information centre and on the Scottish Parliament website for those who wish to examine it in detail. I encourage all members to do that. As we have said consistently, the action we take will be appropriate, based on medical advice. There are a large number of technical and practical reasons for the Oxford data's not yet being available. It is unlikely to be available to us until November. That is simply a statement of fact. The Scottish CMO has stated that he wants to be in possession of that evidence before he issues further advice to us on this matter. That is the sensible thing to do. In response to Mr Morgan's questions, we must return to the purpose, validity and sense of the ban. I repeat the information that I gave in my statement: more than 43 people have developed variant CJD. I appeal to all members—of all parties—to cast their minds back to some of the pictures that we saw on our television screens when the BSE crisis first emerged and when the existence of variant CJD was identified. Remember the pain and the suffering of those infected by this terrible disease; remember the pain, suffering and loss of their relatives. That is why the ban is in place. That is why we are taking advice from the Scottish CMO and that is why we will continue to act on the basis of medical advice in the best health interest of the people of Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "Alasdair Morgan put a number of questions—I lost count at eight—but I will attempt to answer them in turn.

I was quoted as having said previously that we should pay attention to what was happening in the rest of the UK. Absolutely—I repeated that in my statement today, and ministers in other parts of the UK have said the same thing this week. We recognise that it is in the best interests of all parts of the UK for us to co-operate and have an agreed UK policy position on this issue. We have constantly striven for that and continue to have it.

As I said in last week's debate, we have remained in contact with colleagues across the UK on this matter because we recognise that there is considerable cross-border traffic in beef and beef products. A Scottish isolationist position, or any political posturing on this issue by us in Scotland, would be wholly inappropriate and detrimental to public health. There is no contradiction in the position that we have adopted—quite the opposite.

In a spirit of openness and in the interests of clarity, we are more than happy to make publicly available the current advice that Scottish ministers have received from Sir David Carter, the Scottish chief medical officer. That advice will be—if it is not already—available through the Scottish Parliament information centre and on the Scottish Parliament website for those who wish to examine it in detail. I encourage all members to do that. As we have said consistently, the action we take will be appropriate, based on medical advice.

There are a large number of technical and practical reasons for the Oxford data's not yet being available. It is unlikely to be available to us until November. That is simply a statement of fact. The Scottish CMO has stated that he wants to be in possession of that evidence before he issues further advice to us on this matter. That is the sensible thing to do.

In response to Mr Morgan's questions, we must return to the purpose, validity and sense of the ban. I repeat the information that I gave in my statement: more than 43 people have developed

variant CJD. I appeal to all members—of all parties—to cast their minds back to some of the pictures that we saw on our television screens when the BSE crisis first emerged and when the existence of variant CJD was identified. Remember the pain and the suffering of those infected by this terrible disease; remember the pain, suffering and loss of their relatives. That is why the ban is in place. That is why we are taking advice from the Scottish CMO and that is why we will continue to act on the basis of medical advice in the best health interest of the people of Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C708106", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Beef on the Bone", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26837, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 77.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 77.0, "ID": 26837, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 101.0, "ContributionID": 708106, "EditedText": "I repeat that either this Executive acts on the basis of the medical advice that it is given, or it does not. I recall Alasdair Morgan asking a week ago, in this chamber, whether we would act on the basis of the Scottish CMO's advice or would just listen to the English CMO. The clear inference was that we should listen to the Scottish CMO. I have made it clear this afternoon that that is precisely what we are doing. The advice of the Scottish CMO has been clear. I repeat that this decision arises from a discussion that has taken place among the CMOs. Therefore, the UK Parliaments agree that we should not lift, or partially lift, the ban at this time. Finally, on Mr Fergusson's point, one of the great uncertainties about variant CJD is that no one yet knows the precise degree and nature of human-to-human infection of variant CJD. Therefore, the argument that this is about individual choice is fallacious. If one person is infected by variant CJD, we do not know what risk there is of their infecting another person. As a Government, we have a responsibility to act on that basis.", "EditedTextHTML": "I repeat that either this Executive acts on the basis of the medical advice that it is given, or it does not. I recall Alasdair Morgan asking a week ago, in this chamber, whether we would act on the basis of the Scottish CMO's advice or would just listen to the English CMO. The clear inference was that we should listen to the Scottish CMO. I have made it clear this afternoon that that is precisely what we are doing. The advice of the Scottish CMO has been clear. I repeat that this decision arises from a discussion that has taken place among the CMOs. Therefore, the UK Parliaments agree that we should not lift, or partially lift, the ban at this time.

Finally, on Mr Fergusson's point, one of the great uncertainties about variant CJD is that no one yet knows the precise degree and nature of human-to-human infection of variant CJD. Therefore, the argument that this is about individual choice is fallacious. If one person is infected by variant CJD, we do not know what risk there is of their infecting another person. As a Government, we have a responsibility to act on that basis.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1926E190P479C708107", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Beef on the Bone", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26837, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 77.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 77.0, "ID": 26837, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Adam, Brian", "ID": 1926, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Adam", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Brian Adam (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 103.0, "ContributionID": 708107, "EditedText": "I would like to explore the difference in view a bit further. Will the minister publish the criteria by which the judgment on lifting the ban will eventually be made? As she has said, it will be made on medical and scientific evidence. Normally, such things are quantifiable. Will she tell us today, or in the near future, what figure for cases of BSE will be required before the ban can be lifted? Will there have to be no new cases of BSE? Will a figure be required that represents a risk that is \"tiny and unquantifiable in any meaningful way\"?There is a difference of view between advisers north and south of the border. We, too, can make a judgment on the basis of the figures. Let us have the figures—this is all about openness. Is the minister actively considering a partial lifting of the ban? Will she draw a distinction between what most people would regard as beef on the bone and the manufactured product?", "EditedTextHTML": "I would like to explore the difference in view a bit further.

Will the minister publish the criteria by which the judgment on lifting the ban will eventually be made? As she has said, it will be made on medical and scientific evidence. Normally, such things are quantifiable. Will she tell us today, or in the near future, what figure for cases of BSE will be required before the ban can be lifted? Will there have to be no new cases of BSE? Will a figure be required that represents a risk that is

\"tiny and unquantifiable in any meaningful way\"?

There is a difference of view between advisers north and south of the border. We, too, can make a judgment on the basis of the figures. Let us have the figures—this is all about openness.

Is the minister actively considering a partial lifting of the ban? Will she draw a distinction between what most people would regard as beef on the bone and the manufactured product?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C708108", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Beef on the Bone", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26837, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 77.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 77.0, "ID": 26837, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 105.0, "ContributionID": 708108, "EditedText": "The only thing that we, as the Government, will continue actively to consider, and have actively considered since the Scottish Executive came into being, is to listen carefully to, and act on, the medical advice that is given to us. I suggest that it is not for politicians—however knowledgeable some of us may be on the science of this matter—to kick the number of cases around this chamber. From his professional background, Mr Adam knows that there is no one definitive number that can be the trigger for lifting the ban. As I said earlier, a complex range of data are being worked on at Oxford. Our medical advisers will look carefully at that data and then give us advice; and that is the advice that we will act upon.", "EditedTextHTML": "The only thing that we, as the Government, will continue actively to consider,

and have actively considered since the Scottish Executive came into being, is to listen carefully to, and act on, the medical advice that is given to us.

I suggest that it is not for politicians—however knowledgeable some of us may be on the science of this matter—to kick the number of cases around this chamber. From his professional background, Mr Adam knows that there is no one definitive number that can be the trigger for lifting the ban. As I said earlier, a complex range of data are being worked on at Oxford. Our medical advisers will look carefully at that data and then give us advice; and that is the advice that we will act upon.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1926E190P479C708119", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tourism", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26838, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 109.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 109.0, "ID": 26838, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Adam, Brian", "ID": 1926, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Adam", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Brian Adam (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 129.0, "ContributionID": 708119, "EditedText": "rose—", "EditedTextHTML": "rose—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1926E190P479C708121", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tourism", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26838, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 109.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 109.0, "ID": 26838, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Adam, Brian", "ID": 1926, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Adam", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Brian Adam: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 133.0, "ContributionID": 708121, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1901E57P277C708125", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tourism", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26838, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 109.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 109.0, "ID": 26838, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Allan", "ID": 1901, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Cunninghame North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Allan Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Allan Wilson (Cunninghame North) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 143.0, "ContributionID": 708125, "EditedText": "I am not sure what point Fergus is making, but is he prepared to rewrite his economic strategy for independence? He included the fuel tax levy in the figures that he used to fight the election.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am not sure what point Fergus is making, but is he prepared to rewrite his economic strategy for independence? He included the fuel tax levy in the figures that he used to fight the election.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C708127", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tourism", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26838, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 109.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 109.0, "ID": 26838, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon (Argyll and Bute) (LD) rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 147.0, "ContributionID": 708127, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C708133", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tourism", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26838, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 109.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 109.0, "ID": 26838, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ms Patricia Ferguson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 159.0, "ContributionID": 708133, "EditedText": "In opening the debate, Sir David indicated that a large number of members wished to speak, but that because of the reduction in time, it would not be possible to accommodate everyone. I reiterate that point. Members will be allowed four minutes each to speak; in an effort to assist members to keep to time, I will indicate when you have one minute left and encourage you to wind up. In that way, we will accommodate as many members as possible.", "EditedTextHTML": "In opening the debate, Sir David indicated that a large number of members wished to speak, but that because of the reduction in time, it would not be possible to accommodate everyone. I reiterate that point. Members will be allowed four minutes each to speak; in an effort to assist members to keep to time, I will indicate when you have one minute left and encourage you to wind up. In that way, we will accommodate as many members as possible.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C708134", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tourism", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26838, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 109.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 109.0, "ID": 26838, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon (Argyll and Bute) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 162.0, "ContributionID": 708134, "EditedText": "I am tempted to ask whether Fergus is one of the lucky few who have sighted the Loch Ness monster, and whether he has done so recently. He might answer that one outside the chamber. I welcome the debate. It sends a strong signal to the Scottish tourism industry of how much we in the Parliament value its contribution to the Scottish economy. That is an important statement to make. I will reiterate some of the key indicators of the importance of the industry to the Scottish economy. It brings in £2.5 billion per year and directly employs 180,000 people. In the tourist board area that covers my constituency, tourism accounts for 14,400 jobs—nearly 10 per cent of all employment in Argyll and Bute. Those are important figures. They demonstrate that the tourism industry is vital to much of rural Scotland, especially in areas where there are no alternative industries offering such employment. The tourism industry has enormous potential for growth in Scotland, although we are experiencing a slight downturn because of the failure of overseas visitors to come and because Scotland's own people are not spending as much in Scotland. Nevertheless, the Westminster Scottish Affairs Committee's report, which was published earlier this year, highlighted one of the key issues that face our industry: quality of facilities and standards of service. It is a fundamental prerequisite for all markets and sectors that we deliver a quality product. Consistent quality must be one of the Scottish tourism industry's key objectives. Many members spend a lot of time travelling round the country. When we stay in a hotel or boarding house, we know that if one star is displayed outside the accommodation, we can expect four-star accommodation to be of better quality. The question that we must ask ourselves is: what exactly are our expectations of four-star accommodation? What does it mean? What kind of benchmarks do we expect? Do four stars mean that the accommodation simply has more fixtures and fittings? Or do they describe the quality of service that we should expect? Does anyone know? Has the customer been informed of what the benchmarks are? Another question that we must ask concerns whom we should complain to if we have had a bad experience or if the four stars did not deliver what we had expected. Is it the tourist board, or the hotelier? If we complain, what action is likely to be taken? I suggest that we should continue improving the quality of the product in Scotland. If we want to continue to compete against worldwide competition, we must drive up the quality of the product. That quality must be consistent for every tourist. To eliminate bad experiences that can do much to damage Scotland's reputation for quality, the Scottish Liberal Democrats believe that we need a classification and grading system, whereby the customer will understand exactly what the benchmarks are for determining the different star ratings.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am tempted to ask whether Fergus is one of the lucky few who have sighted the Loch Ness monster, and whether he has done so recently. He might answer that one outside the chamber.

I welcome the debate. It sends a strong signal to the Scottish tourism industry of how much we in the Parliament value its contribution to the Scottish economy. That is an important statement to make. I will reiterate some of the key indicators of the importance of the industry to the Scottish economy. It brings in £2.5 billion per year and directly employs 180,000 people. In the tourist board area that covers my constituency, tourism accounts for 14,400 jobs—nearly 10 per cent of all employment in Argyll and Bute. Those are important figures. They demonstrate that the tourism industry is vital to much of rural Scotland, especially in areas where there are no alternative industries offering such employment.

The tourism industry has enormous potential for growth in Scotland, although we are experiencing a slight downturn because of the failure of overseas visitors to come and because Scotland's own people are not spending as much in Scotland. Nevertheless, the Westminster Scottish Affairs Committee's report, which was published earlier this year, highlighted one of the key issues that face our industry: quality of facilities and standards of service. It is a fundamental prerequisite for all markets and sectors that we deliver a quality product. Consistent quality must be one of the Scottish tourism industry's key objectives.

Many members spend a lot of time travelling round the country. When we stay in a hotel or boarding house, we know that if one star is displayed outside the accommodation, we can expect four-star accommodation to be of better quality. The question that we must ask ourselves is: what exactly are our expectations of four-star accommodation? What does it mean? What kind of benchmarks do we expect? Do four stars mean that the accommodation simply has more fixtures and fittings? Or do they describe the quality of service that we should expect? Does anyone know? Has the customer been informed of what the benchmarks are?

Another question that we must ask concerns whom we should complain to if we have had a bad experience or if the four stars did not deliver what we had expected. Is it the tourist board, or the hotelier? If we complain, what action is likely to be taken? I suggest that we should continue improving the quality of the product in Scotland. If we want to continue to compete against worldwide competition, we must drive up the quality of the product. That quality must be consistent for every tourist.

To eliminate bad experiences that can do much to damage Scotland's reputation for quality, the Scottish Liberal Democrats believe that we need a classification and grading system, whereby the customer will understand exactly what the benchmarks are for determining the different star ratings.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1962E35P56C708138", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tourism", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26838, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 109.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 109.0, "ID": 26838, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mundell, David", "ID": 1962, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Mundell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David Mundell (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 171.0, "ContributionID": 708138, "EditedText": "I had pleasure in joining Dr Murray at Gretna—", "EditedTextHTML": "I had pleasure in joining Dr Murray at Gretna—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1892E34P73C708142", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tourism", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26838, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 109.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 109.0, "ID": 26838, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Fergusson, Alex", "ID": 1892, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Fergusson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Fergusson (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 180.0, "ContributionID": 708142, "EditedText": "I hope that Alasdair Morrison will correct me if I am wrong, but I think he said—and I was horrified to hear him say it—that the Scottish tourist boards will be meeting in Maastricht shortly. As someone who is wary of all things European, I pray that there will not be another Maastricht agreement in my lifetime. Rural Scotland today relies on an economy generated from the traditional sources of agriculture and fishing and the more recent sources of forestry and tourism. As the input of the traditional wealth creators diminishes annually, the input of the modern economic generators rises in importance. For some years, because of a multiplicity of factors, manufacturing industry has tended to polarise away from rural areas such as Dumfries and Galloway, which I know best. As a result of that shift, tourism is becoming the major if not the only area of potentially massive growth for rural Scotland. As the world becomes more accessible to an increasingly large percentage of its population, tourism should be the jewel in our Scottish crown, given the magnificent raw materials in our history, culture and scenery. I agree with Fergus Ewing that it is a combination matched by few other countries. However, tourism is not the jewel in our crown—it is on a downward trend and not the great success story that it should be. We must ask ourselves why. To that end, I commend the Executive on its consultation exercise, because it is right to try to pinpoint both the way ahead and the problems faced by an increasingly vital industry. I beg the Executive to listen to all the submissions, and in particular to pay attention to the grass roots of the industry: the bed-and-breakfast landladies, hoteliers, shopkeepers, caravan site owners and filling station owners, who provide the real barometer for trends in the tourism trade. If the Executive listens to those people, it will discover several key pointers towards reversing the downward trend. The first, I am sure, will be to cut the red tape that so bedevils all today's society, which I keep coming up against in Galloway. For instance, one landlady I met is limited to having six guests. That is not unreasonable for three double bedrooms, but if a couple with a small baby—for whom she would not charge—arrive at that guest house, she instantly loses not only the use of one of the four remaining beds, but up to £2,000 per annum because of that petty bureaucratic regulation. The second key pointer will be the cost of travelling in Scotland, a matter that has already been raised today. It is a simple problem to solve. If the Labour Government and the Scottish Executive are serious about increasing tourism throughout Scotland, they must get Gordon Brown's foot off the fuel escalator and cut the cost of petrol. That would bring many other benefits and would do more than anything else to boost the tourism industry. Thirdly, we must take a long hard look at the operation of the area tourist boards, and particularly at how they are financed. In Dumfries and Galloway and, no doubt, in several other areas, the area tourist board has to prepare its budget without knowing the contribution that will come from the local authority. Funding must come directly through the Scottish Tourist Board, and the local authorities must be removed from the equation. The tourist board network must focus its attention increasingly on promotion and decreasingly on the red tape and bureaucracy that I have described. We must become more flexible in allowing seasonal tourism-related businesses to advertise themselves in a reasonable manner. Far too often, facilities are prevented from promoting themselves by an overzealous authority, which will allow only those awful dull brown notices for tourists, which suggest a field of mud rather than a field of dreams. If the Executive is serious, I beg it to examine the key points that I mentioned. If it does so, and if they are properly addressed, the future of Scotland's tourism industry will be bright indeed. I commend the amendment.", "EditedTextHTML": "I hope that Alasdair Morrison will correct me if I am wrong, but I think he said—and I was horrified to hear him say it—that the Scottish tourist boards will be meeting in Maastricht shortly. As someone who is wary of all things European, I pray that there will not be another Maastricht agreement in my lifetime.

Rural Scotland today relies on an economy generated from the traditional sources of agriculture and fishing and the more recent sources of forestry and tourism. As the input of the traditional wealth creators diminishes annually, the input of the modern economic generators rises in importance. For some years, because of a multiplicity of factors, manufacturing industry has tended to polarise away from rural areas such as Dumfries and Galloway, which I know best. As a result of that shift, tourism is becoming the major if not the only area of potentially massive growth for rural Scotland.

As the world becomes more accessible to an increasingly large percentage of its population, tourism should be the jewel in our Scottish crown, given the magnificent raw materials in our history, culture and scenery. I agree with Fergus Ewing that it is a combination matched by few other countries. However, tourism is not the jewel in our crown—it is on a downward trend and not the great success story that it should be. We must ask ourselves why.

To that end, I commend the Executive on its consultation exercise, because it is right to try to pinpoint both the way ahead and the problems faced by an increasingly vital industry. I beg the Executive to listen to all the submissions, and in particular to pay attention to the grass roots of the industry: the bed-and-breakfast landladies, hoteliers, shopkeepers, caravan site owners and filling station owners, who provide the real barometer for trends in the tourism trade.

If the Executive listens to those people, it will discover several key pointers towards reversing the downward trend. The first, I am sure, will be to

cut the red tape that so bedevils all today's society, which I keep coming up against in Galloway. For instance, one landlady I met is limited to having six guests. That is not unreasonable for three double bedrooms, but if a couple with a small baby—for whom she would not charge—arrive at that guest house, she instantly loses not only the use of one of the four remaining beds, but up to £2,000 per annum because of that petty bureaucratic regulation.

The second key pointer will be the cost of travelling in Scotland, a matter that has already been raised today. It is a simple problem to solve. If the Labour Government and the Scottish Executive are serious about increasing tourism throughout Scotland, they must get Gordon Brown's foot off the fuel escalator and cut the cost of petrol. That would bring many other benefits and would do more than anything else to boost the tourism industry.

Thirdly, we must take a long hard look at the operation of the area tourist boards, and particularly at how they are financed. In Dumfries and Galloway and, no doubt, in several other areas, the area tourist board has to prepare its budget without knowing the contribution that will come from the local authority. Funding must come directly through the Scottish Tourist Board, and the local authorities must be removed from the equation. The tourist board network must focus its attention increasingly on promotion and decreasingly on the red tape and bureaucracy that I have described.

We must become more flexible in allowing seasonal tourism-related businesses to advertise themselves in a reasonable manner. Far too often, facilities are prevented from promoting themselves by an overzealous authority, which will allow only those awful dull brown notices for tourists, which suggest a field of mud rather than a field of dreams.

If the Executive is serious, I beg it to examine the key points that I mentioned. If it does so, and if they are properly addressed, the future of Scotland's tourism industry will be bright indeed. I commend the amendment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C708143", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tourism", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26838, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 109.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 109.0, "ID": 26838, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bruce Crawford (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 183.0, "ContributionID": 708143, "EditedText": "I shall concentrate on the structural and financial challenges facing the public sector of the tourism industry. I have been fortunate enough to have had a unique insight into the challenges and difficulty that the public sector faces. From May 1996 to May this year, I was not only leader of a local authority, but served on the boards of an area tourist board and a local enterprise company. On the structure of the public sector, we have inherited a situation in which the lines of responsibility are, to say the least, confused, and in which transparency of policy formation and of delivery mechanisms is severely lacking. That has created an environment in the private arm of the industry where innovation and investment are stifled, and where ownership of strategic direction is low or non-existent. The public sector players are at national level: the Scottish Tourist Board and Scottish Enterprise. At a local level, there are the area tourist boards, the local enterprise companies and the local authorities. All those bodies, to a greater or lesser extent, are trying to ensure that we have a tourism product that we can be proud of. They all mean well and attempt to do their bit through various partnership arrangements. The unfortunate reality is that, if we look beneath the veneer of partnership working well, we find territorial disputes, suspicion, considerable frustration, slow decision-making processes and perceptions of a lack of support among other partners. In short, the public sector of tourism is fragmented. It is unable to form a common position for direction or delivery and it is in dire need of realignment, refocusing and integration. I will now refer to financial support and the sustainable funding of ATBs. Area tourist boards find themselves in the incongruous and unenviable position of being creatures of statute but without statutory obligation to raise funds themselves or to be supported by other public bodies. That unsatisfactory situation has left eight ATBs struggling financially since their inception. Many of them are also currently reliant on EU structural funds, and when that picture changes soon, many ATBs will go out of business. From the local authority perspective, with further swingeing cuts inevitable again this year, the area tourist boards are in a no-win situation. In the competition for resources with the likes of education, social work and police, they do not stand a snowball's chance of receiving a sustainable funding package. Instead of being fed on a diet of uncertainty with, at best, standstill budgets, which means cuts in real terms, area tourist boards should be nourished with the certainty that they are funded on a sustainable basis through three-year funding packages. It would be useful if the Tories at least apologised for the fuel escalator and for the damage to area tourist boards caused by the cuts that they made in previous years. In all likelihood, the review of tourism will be the last chance in a generation for Scotland to get it right. We have a chance to become a world-class tourist destination with a world-class product. I would like to say well done to the Executive for undertaking the consultation process to develop a new strategy for tourism. That is an important first step, but at the end of the day, the Executive's actions will speak louder than words. For Scotland's sake, we must get this right. The tourism industry and the minister have been heard to say \"service, service, service\". However, the public service requires funding, funding, funding to ensure that it can deliver.", "EditedTextHTML": "I shall concentrate on the structural and financial challenges facing the public sector of the tourism industry. I have been fortunate enough to have had a unique insight into the challenges and difficulty that the public sector faces. From May 1996 to May this year, I was not only leader of a local authority, but served on the boards of an area tourist board and a local enterprise company.

On the structure of the public sector, we have inherited a situation in which the lines of responsibility are, to say the least, confused, and in which transparency of policy formation and of delivery mechanisms is severely lacking. That has created an environment in the private arm of the industry where innovation and investment are stifled, and where ownership of strategic direction is low or non-existent.

The public sector players are at national level: the Scottish Tourist Board and Scottish Enterprise. At a local level, there are the area tourist boards, the local enterprise companies and the local authorities. All those bodies, to a greater or lesser extent, are trying to ensure that we have a tourism product that we can be proud of. They all mean well and attempt to do their bit through various partnership arrangements. The unfortunate reality is that, if we look beneath the veneer of partnership working well, we find territorial disputes, suspicion, considerable frustration, slow decision-making processes and perceptions of a lack of support among other partners. In short, the public sector of tourism is fragmented. It is unable to form a common position for direction or delivery and it is in dire need of realignment, refocusing and integration.

I will now refer to financial support and the sustainable funding of ATBs. Area tourist boards find themselves in the incongruous and unenviable position of being creatures of statute but without statutory obligation to raise funds themselves or to be supported by other public bodies. That unsatisfactory situation has left eight ATBs struggling financially since their inception. Many of them are also currently reliant on EU structural funds, and when that picture changes soon, many ATBs will go out of business.

From the local authority perspective, with further swingeing cuts inevitable again this year, the area tourist boards are in a no-win situation. In the competition for resources with the likes of education, social work and police, they do not stand a snowball's chance of receiving a sustainable funding package. Instead of being fed on a diet of uncertainty with, at best, standstill budgets, which means cuts in real terms, area tourist boards should be nourished with the certainty that they are funded on a sustainable basis through three-year funding packages. It would be useful if the Tories at least apologised for the fuel escalator and for the damage to area tourist boards caused by the cuts that they made in previous years. In all likelihood, the review of tourism will be the last chance in a generation for Scotland to get it right. We have a chance to become a world-class tourist destination with a world-class product.

I would like to say well done to the Executive for undertaking the consultation process to develop a

new strategy for tourism. That is an important first step, but at the end of the day, the Executive's actions will speak louder than words. For Scotland's sake, we must get this right. The tourism industry and the minister have been heard to say \"service, service, service\". However, the public service requires funding, funding, funding to ensure that it can deliver.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C708149", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tourism", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26838, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 109.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 109.0, "ID": 26838, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 198.0, "ContributionID": 708149, "EditedText": "I call John Swinney to wind up on behalf of the Scottish National party.", "EditedTextHTML": "I call John Swinney to wind up on behalf of the Scottish National party.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6702555+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C708154", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tourism", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26838, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 109.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 109.0, "ID": 26838, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 209.0, "ContributionID": 708154, "EditedText": "I am sorry, John.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry, John.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6702555+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1916E38P70C708156", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tourism", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26838, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 109.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 109.0, "ID": 26838, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Ben", "ID": 1916, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ben Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ben Wallace (North-East Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 214.0, "ContributionID": 708156, "EditedText": "John Swinney's remarks about our amendment were astonishing, considering that every point made by my colleague David Davidson has been mirrored by the SNP. Perhaps SNP members are a little peeved that they did not lodge the amendment—they were probably too busy in-fighting in Inverness. We have a world-class asset, although not yet a world-class service—that is what Henry McLeish said yesterday. The point about service could apply to the Scottish Executive. I disagree with Alasdair Morrison's opinion that there are many different views about the way in which to reform and improve the tourist industry in Scotland. The one thing that was crystal clear to me when I was the Conservative tourism spokesman was that so many institutions throughout Scotland had a clear idea of what the industry needed. Indeed, Brian Wilson, two years ago, when he was the minister, seemed to be well aware of that—he must have left the details in the in-tray. The burdens imposed on the tourism industry by the Labour Government, the failure to improve our roads and the increase in fuel tax have all helped to destroy tourism. They have all helped to cut the 6 per cent—", "EditedTextHTML": "John Swinney's remarks about our amendment were astonishing, considering that every point made by my colleague David Davidson has been mirrored by the SNP. Perhaps SNP members are a little peeved that they did not lodge the amendment—they were probably too busy in-fighting in Inverness.

We have a world-class asset, although not yet a world-class service—that is what Henry McLeish said yesterday. The point about service could apply to the Scottish Executive. I disagree with Alasdair Morrison's opinion that there are many different views about the way in which to reform and improve the tourist industry in Scotland. The one thing that was crystal clear to me when I was the Conservative tourism spokesman was that so many institutions throughout Scotland had a clear idea of what the industry needed. Indeed, Brian Wilson, two years ago, when he was the minister, seemed to be well aware of that—he must have left the details in the in-tray.

The burdens imposed on the tourism industry by the Labour Government, the failure to improve our roads and the increase in fuel tax have all helped to destroy tourism. They have all helped to cut the 6 per cent—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6702555+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1916E38P70C708158", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tourism", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26838, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 109.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 109.0, "ID": 26838, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Ben", "ID": 1916, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ben Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ben Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 218.0, "ContributionID": 708158, "EditedText": "No, I will not.The minister espoused the report from Westminster and talked about the good things for tourism, but conveniently left out the recommendation for a dedicated minister for tourism to focus on the needs of the Scottish industry. The tourism industry is so big that it deserves that attention. On 7 July, I wrote to the minister, asking him to visit a constituency event—a pipe band, organised by a tourism community group. The event demonstrated the way in which communities have promoted tourism in Aberdeenshire; that has a direct effect on Highlands and Islands and European funding. When I received the reply on 2 August—as I expected, the minister was busy doing something else—it was interesting to note that it arrived the day after the event. That he cannot give attention to such events shows the need for an individual minister for tourism. Because of the loss of European funding—or the changes in the structure of European funding— local authorities are desperately looking round for more money. It is a priority that the review be carried out. I also believe that, before the end of the year, we must solve the way in which we fund our tourist boards; core funding is an important issue. I ask the Executive to use its influence on Gordon Brown at the Treasury to consider ways in which to cut VAT for tourist outlets. I also ask the Executive to make further representations on the effects of the high fuel tax. Scotland could be a world leader in tourism. We have the beautiful land, the quality foods and the quality of life to make Scotland competitive on the world market. However, the burdens must be lifted. We need to compete with our colleagues in Ireland, where VAT has been cut, leading to a massive increase in tourism. That is what we need, not regulation and the extra taxes that I talked about earlier. We need the Executive to take the issue seriously. I therefore ask members to back the amendment, which will remove burdens and allow Scottish tourism to flourish.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I will not.

The minister espoused the report from Westminster and talked about the good things for tourism, but conveniently left out the recommendation for a dedicated minister for tourism to focus on the needs of the Scottish industry. The tourism industry is so big that it deserves that attention.

On 7 July, I wrote to the minister, asking him to visit a constituency event—a pipe band, organised by a tourism community group. The event demonstrated the way in which communities have promoted tourism in Aberdeenshire; that has a direct effect on Highlands and Islands and European funding. When I received the reply on 2 August—as I expected, the minister was busy doing something else—it was interesting to note that it arrived the day after the event. That he

cannot give attention to such events shows the need for an individual minister for tourism.

Because of the loss of European funding—or the changes in the structure of European funding— local authorities are desperately looking round for more money. It is a priority that the review be carried out. I also believe that, before the end of the year, we must solve the way in which we fund our tourist boards; core funding is an important issue.

I ask the Executive to use its influence on Gordon Brown at the Treasury to consider ways in which to cut VAT for tourist outlets. I also ask the Executive to make further representations on the effects of the high fuel tax.

Scotland could be a world leader in tourism. We have the beautiful land, the quality foods and the quality of life to make Scotland competitive on the world market. However, the burdens must be lifted. We need to compete with our colleagues in Ireland, where VAT has been cut, leading to a massive increase in tourism. That is what we need, not regulation and the extra taxes that I talked about earlier. We need the Executive to take the issue seriously. I therefore ask members to back the amendment, which will remove burdens and allow Scottish tourism to flourish.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6702555+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1775E171P452C708160", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tourism", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26838, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 109.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 109.0, "ID": 26838, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeod, Fiona", "ID": 1775, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona McLeod", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona McLeod (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 223.0, "ContributionID": 708160, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6702555+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1862E99P179C708163", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tourism", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26838, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 109.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 109.0, "ID": 26838, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Brankin, Rhona", "ID": 1862, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Midlothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Culture and Sport", "SpeakerName": "Rhona Brankin", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Rhona Brankin: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 229.0, "ContributionID": 708163, "EditedText": "No. I have too many points to get through. I assure Alex Johnstone that I will respond to some of the points that were raised by the Conservatives. There have been calls for the Government to invest more public money in the tourism industry. Direct support, through the Scottish Tourist Board, Scottish Enterprise, Highlands and Islands Enterprise, the British Tourist Authority and local authorities, totals around £60 million annually. The industry also benefits from funding from the European Union and indirectly from support from bodies such as Historic Scotland and Scottish Natural Heritage. However, no amount of money guarantees success.", "EditedTextHTML": "No. I have too many points to get through. I assure Alex Johnstone that I will respond to some of the points that were raised by the Conservatives.

There have been calls for the Government to invest more public money in the tourism industry. Direct support, through the Scottish Tourist Board, Scottish Enterprise, Highlands and Islands Enterprise, the British Tourist Authority and local authorities, totals around £60 million annually. The industry also benefits from funding from the European Union and indirectly from support from bodies such as Historic Scotland and Scottish Natural Heritage.

However, no amount of money guarantees success.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6702555+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1862E99P179C708169", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tourism", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26838, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 109.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 109.0, "ID": 26838, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Brankin, Rhona", "ID": 1862, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Midlothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Culture and Sport", "SpeakerName": "Rhona Brankin", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Rhona Brankin: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 241.0, "ContributionID": 708169, "EditedText": "I am sorry—I have to wind up now. Alex Fergusson talked about Maastricht. I know that Alasdair Morrison was speaking in his second language, but what he said was that representatives from Scotland had been asked to make a presentation at the European Union of Tourist Officers convention in Maastricht. Alasdair was involved in a meeting with area tourist board representatives just last week. There is no downward trend in tourism. The trend was upward until last year. This year might also see an improvement, but it is too soon to tell. Mary Scanlon talked about figures for the Highlands being 6 per cent down. There are no official figures for individual regions yet, and figures for visits to tourist information centres are not reliable. It is too soon to rush to judgment this season. The figures are modestly encouraging, so again—please do not talk the Highlands down. John Swinney talked about Project Ossian. All 14 area tourist boards are now linked to a national database. Information on 7,000 accommodation businesses is now available on the internet, and there will be 1,000 more by the end of this month. A pilot booking service scheme will begin in October. All told, significant progress is being made. I am running over time, so I will conclude by saying that the prospects for tourism in Scotland are good, and that there are real opportunities for further substantial growth in the years ahead. If the public agencies can work with the representative bodies—including the area tourist boards and the Scottish Tourism Forum—we can improve things and we can stop talking Scotland down. I am in no doubt that the Scottish tourism industry can become truly world class. I urge members to support the motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry—I have to wind up now.

Alex Fergusson talked about Maastricht. I know that Alasdair Morrison was speaking in his second language, but what he said was that representatives from Scotland had been asked to make a presentation at the European Union of Tourist Officers convention in Maastricht. Alasdair was involved in a meeting with area tourist board representatives just last week.

There is no downward trend in tourism. The trend was upward until last year. This year might also see an improvement, but it is too soon to tell. Mary Scanlon talked about figures for the Highlands being 6 per cent down. There are no official figures for individual regions yet, and figures for visits to tourist information centres are not reliable. It is too soon to rush to judgment this

season. The figures are modestly encouraging, so again—please do not talk the Highlands down.

John Swinney talked about Project Ossian. All 14 area tourist boards are now linked to a national database. Information on 7,000 accommodation businesses is now available on the internet, and there will be 1,000 more by the end of this month. A pilot booking service scheme will begin in October. All told, significant progress is being made.

I am running over time, so I will conclude by saying that the prospects for tourism in Scotland are good, and that there are real opportunities for further substantial growth in the years ahead. If the public agencies can work with the representative bodies—including the area tourist boards and the Scottish Tourism Forum—we can improve things and we can stop talking Scotland down. I am in no doubt that the Scottish tourism industry can become truly world class. I urge members to support the motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6702555+00:00" }, { "ID": "C708172", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Amnesic Shellfish Poisoning", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26839, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 245.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 245.0, "ID": 26839, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 248.0, "ContributionID": 708172, "EditedText": "Motion moved,", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion moved,

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6702555+00:00" }, { "ID": "C708174", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Amnesic Shellfish Poisoning", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26839, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 245.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 245.0, "ID": 26839, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 250.0, "ContributionID": 708174, "EditedText": "The Food Protection (Emergency Prohibitions) (Amnesic Shellfish Poisoning) (Orkney) (No. 2) (Scotland) Order 1999 (SSI 1999/42)", "EditedTextHTML": "The Food Protection (Emergency Prohibitions) (Amnesic Shellfish Poisoning) (Orkney) (No. 2) (Scotland) Order 1999 (SSI 1999/42)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6702555+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708178", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26840, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 252.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 252.0, "ID": 26840, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 258.0, "ContributionID": 708178, "EditedText": "In that case, there will be a division. Those who wish to support Mr Davidson's amendment should vote yes, those against should vote no. Once you have voted, your lights will go out, which is to reassure you that your vote has been recorded.", "EditedTextHTML": "In that case, there will be a division. Those who wish to support Mr Davidson's amendment should vote yes, those against should vote no. Once you have voted, your lights will go out, which is to reassure you that your vote has been recorded.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4514842+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708180", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26840, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 252.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 252.0, "ID": 26840, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 261.0, "ContributionID": 708180, "EditedText": "The result is as follows: For 18, Against 73, Abstentions 0.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result is as follows: For 18, Against 73, Abstentions 0.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4514842+00:00" }, { "ID": "C708181", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26840, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 252.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 252.0, "ID": 26840, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 263.0, "ContributionID": 708181, "EditedText": "Amendment disagreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment disagreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4514842+00:00" }, { "ID": "C708184", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26840, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 252.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 252.0, "ID": 26840, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 267.0, "ContributionID": 708184, "EditedText": "That the Parliament acknowledges the importance of the tourism industry to the economy of Scotland, agrees that the industry faces a number of challenges and notes that the Government intends to publish in the new year a new strategy for the industry that will address these challenges.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament acknowledges the importance of the tourism industry to the economy of Scotland, agrees that the industry faces a number of challenges and notes that the Government intends to publish in the new year a new strategy for the industry that will address these challenges.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4514842+00:00" }, { "ID": "C708187", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26840, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 252.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 252.0, "ID": 26840, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 271.0, "ContributionID": 708187, "EditedText": "That the Parliament agrees that the following instruments be approved—", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament agrees that the following instruments be approved—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4514842+00:00" }, { "ID": "C708189", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26840, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 252.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 252.0, "ID": 26840, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 273.0, "ContributionID": 708189, "EditedText": "The Food Protection (Emergency Prohibitions) (Amnesic Shellfish Poisoning) (West Coast) (No. 2) (Scotland) Order 1999 (SSI 1999/50).", "EditedTextHTML": "The Food Protection (Emergency Prohibitions) (Amnesic Shellfish Poisoning) (West Coast) (No. 2) (Scotland) Order 1999 (SSI 1999/50).

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4514842+00:00" }, { "ID": "C708191", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Stobhill Hospital", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26841, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 274.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 274.0, "ID": 26841, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 277.0, "ContributionID": 708191, "EditedText": "Motion debated,", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion debated,

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4514842+00:00" }, { "ID": "C708192", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Stobhill Hospital", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26841, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 274.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 274.0, "ID": 26841, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 278.0, "ContributionID": 708192, "EditedText": "That the Parliament calls upon Greater Glasgow Health Board to enter into full and meaningful consultation with the residents and medical staff who are affected by the proposal to build a Secure Unit on the grounds of Stobhill Hospital and to take action to ensure that local people are included in the membership of the Glasgow North University Hospital Trust", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament calls upon Greater Glasgow Health Board to enter into full and meaningful consultation with the residents and medical staff who are affected by the proposal to build a Secure Unit on the grounds of Stobhill Hospital and to take action to ensure that local people are included in the membership of the Glasgow North University Hospital Trust

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4514842+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708202", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Stobhill Hospital", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26841, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 274.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 274.0, "ID": 26841, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 299.0, "ContributionID": 708202, "EditedText": "We cannot have two people on their feet at once.", "EditedTextHTML": "We cannot have two people on their feet at once.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4514842+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1762E216P508C708203", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Stobhill Hospital", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26841, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 274.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 274.0, "ID": 26841, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Elder, Dorothy-Grace", "ID": 1762, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 301.0, "ContributionID": 708203, "EditedText": "I oppose that type of client going to this unit. Enough is already stacked against the child in the community. The lack of child safety, even right through to the courts, is appalling. Only 5 to 10 per cent of the 1,500 cases of child abuse in Scotland that come to light and get as far as a fiscal, get into court.", "EditedTextHTML": "I oppose that type of client going to this unit. Enough is already stacked against the child in the community. The lack of child safety, even right through to the courts, is appalling. Only 5 to 10 per cent of the 1,500 cases of child abuse in Scotland that come to light and get as far as a fiscal, get into court.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4514842+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708213", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Stobhill Hospital", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26841, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 274.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 274.0, "ID": 26841, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 324.0, "ContributionID": 708213, "EditedText": "I am aware of that. However, this afternoon's debate is on a specific subject raised by the constituency member. In such circumstances, a half-hour debate is appropriate. You are eating up your own time, so please press on.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am aware of that. However, this afternoon's debate is on a specific subject raised by the constituency member. In such circumstances, a half-hour debate is appropriate. You are eating up your own time, so please press on.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4514842+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C708217", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Stobhill Hospital", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26841, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 274.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 274.0, "ID": 26841, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 333.0, "ContributionID": 708217, "EditedText": "I now have less than two and a half minutes to address a range of very important—", "EditedTextHTML": "I now have less than two and a half minutes to address a range of very important—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "C708223", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Stobhill Hospital", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26841, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 274.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 274.0, "ID": 26841, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 345.0, "ContributionID": 708223, "EditedText": "Meeting closed at 17:38.", "EditedTextHTML": "Meeting closed at 17:38.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C708219", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Stobhill Hospital", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26841, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 274.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 274.0, "ID": 26841, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 337.0, "ContributionID": 708219, "EditedText": "Will the minister take an intervention?", "EditedTextHTML": "

Will the minister take an intervention?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:13.4671264+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C708124", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tourism", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26838, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 109.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 109.0, "ID": 26838, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fergus Ewing (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 141.0, "ContributionID": 708124, "EditedText": "We in the SNP welcome the fact that there is to be a strategy on the tourism industry in Scotland, not only because the first mention of the strategy was made in response to one of the questions that I asked on 17 June, but because the industry is vital to everyone in Scotland. We believe that our country has tourism potential that is unmatched in any other country, and the minister's comments reflected that opinion. Perhaps we should begin by considering the very word tourist. When somebody comes to our house to stay, do we call that person a tourist? Or do we call that person a guest or a visitor? The word tourist has pejorative connotations; it is something that we put up with or thole, but about which we are not very enthusiastic. Perhaps we should be talking about visitors and guests. If we extend that argument, whatever we may decide about the structures—and I hope that they will be considered in the review—we should think about the name of the Scottish Tourist Board. Is not that old-fashioned? Should not it sum up what we want to achieve for Scotland? Should not it be called Welcome to Scotland, especially for our friends from south of the border? Whether they consider themselves English, British, Scottish, Scandinavian or whatever, they are all welcome here in Scotland as our visitors and our friends. I understand that the Scottish Tourist Board defines a tourist as someone who spends one night in Scotland away from home. I suppose that I will be a tourist when I visit Hamilton tomorrow evening. Perhaps we have 129 tourists here; perhaps everyone in the chamber is a tourist. By the way in which we treat visitors and guests from other countries, everyone in Scotland is an ambassador. As Annabel Goldie said in a committee recently, how we comport ourselves is important, because it sends a message to Scotland about the image that we wish to convey to the wider world. We welcome the review. We believe—and this is my view following an extensive 17-week surgery tour during the infamous holidays that we are supposed to have had—that there is an appetite for a minister for tourism. There is an appetite for one individual, not three—estimable though we know Henry McLeish, Rhona Brankin and Alasdair Morrison to be—so that the buck stops with one person. One person would be responsible; one person would be accountable—one person has to do the job that is so important for Scotland over the next few years. It is vital that we get that strategy right, and I ask in a non-partisan way that the decision not to appoint one dedicated minister for tourism be revisited. It is not a political point—it is one of substance—and I hope that it is considered. The review that was announced on 3 August mentioned some important aspects that we need to address, such as identifying our future markets, both domestic and overseas. Surely we have to look at the performance of the Scottish Tourist Board and the area tourist boards. It is wrong for Lord Gordon to say that it is not the function of the review to consider structures—we must consider that to get the strategy right. Strategy is most important, but of necessity it entails looking at structures. Will Alasdair Morrison revisit that decision, so that we can look at the structures as well? I hope that a thousand flowers will bloom as a result of the responses to the review and that there will be more excellent suggestions such as those in the considered piece by Trevor Grundy and Robert Dawson Scott in The Scotsman today. I think that we will get that positive response. There are a number of challenges—the minister's word, which I admit is a Hebridean euphemism. We cannot remain competitive because we are not competitive. Scotland is too expensive; it is not just the Scottish National party that is saying that. In a letter to me dated 8 September, Tom Buncle of the Scottish Tourist Board said, on fuel tax, that \"there is clearly a correlation between the cost of fuel and the propensity of visitors to travel widely throughout Scotland.\" Will Alasdair join us in supporting the campaign run by the Sunday Post to scrap the fuel escalator? I am happy to accept an intervention from any Labour member—I have the application forms here. No takers? That is a shame, because the Sunday Post is doing a grand job.", "EditedTextHTML": "We in the SNP welcome the fact that there is to be a strategy on the tourism industry in Scotland, not only because the first mention of the strategy was made in response to one of the questions that I asked on 17 June, but because the industry is vital to everyone in Scotland. We believe that our country has tourism potential that is unmatched in any other country, and the minister's comments reflected that opinion.

Perhaps we should begin by considering the very word tourist. When somebody comes to our house to stay, do we call that person a tourist? Or do we call that person a guest or a visitor? The word tourist has pejorative connotations; it is something that we put up with or thole, but about which we are not very enthusiastic. Perhaps we should be talking about visitors and guests.

If we extend that argument, whatever we may decide about the structures—and I hope that they will be considered in the review—we should think about the name of the Scottish Tourist Board. Is not that old-fashioned? Should not it sum up what we want to achieve for Scotland? Should not it be called Welcome to Scotland, especially for our friends from south of the border? Whether they consider themselves English, British, Scottish, Scandinavian or whatever, they are all welcome here in Scotland as our visitors and our friends.

I understand that the Scottish Tourist Board defines a tourist as someone who spends one night in Scotland away from home. I suppose that I will be a tourist when I visit Hamilton tomorrow evening. Perhaps we have 129 tourists here; perhaps everyone in the chamber is a tourist. By the way in which we treat visitors and guests from other countries, everyone in Scotland is an ambassador. As Annabel Goldie said in a committee recently, how we comport ourselves is important, because it sends a message to Scotland about the image that we wish to convey to the wider world.

We welcome the review. We believe—and this is my view following an extensive 17-week surgery tour during the infamous holidays that we are supposed to have had—that there is an appetite

for a minister for tourism. There is an appetite for one individual, not three—estimable though we know Henry McLeish, Rhona Brankin and Alasdair Morrison to be—so that the buck stops with one person. One person would be responsible; one person would be accountable—one person has to do the job that is so important for Scotland over the next few years. It is vital that we get that strategy right, and I ask in a non-partisan way that the decision not to appoint one dedicated minister for tourism be revisited. It is not a political point—it is one of substance—and I hope that it is considered.

The review that was announced on 3 August mentioned some important aspects that we need to address, such as identifying our future markets, both domestic and overseas. Surely we have to look at the performance of the Scottish Tourist Board and the area tourist boards. It is wrong for Lord Gordon to say that it is not the function of the review to consider structures—we must consider that to get the strategy right. Strategy is most important, but of necessity it entails looking at structures. Will Alasdair Morrison revisit that decision, so that we can look at the structures as well?

I hope that a thousand flowers will bloom as a result of the responses to the review and that there will be more excellent suggestions such as those in the considered piece by Trevor Grundy and Robert Dawson Scott in The Scotsman today. I think that we will get that positive response.

There are a number of challenges—the minister's word, which I admit is a Hebridean euphemism. We cannot remain competitive because we are not competitive. Scotland is too expensive; it is not just the Scottish National party that is saying that. In a letter to me dated 8 September, Tom Buncle of the Scottish Tourist Board said, on fuel tax, that

\"there is clearly a correlation between the cost of fuel and the propensity of visitors to travel widely throughout Scotland.\"

Will Alasdair join us in supporting the campaign run by the Sunday Post to scrap the fuel escalator? I am happy to accept an intervention from any Labour member—I have the application forms here. No takers? That is a shame, because the Sunday Post is doing a grand job.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:00:40.809978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C708157", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tourism", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26838, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 109.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 109.0, "ID": 26838, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fergus Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 216.0, "ContributionID": 708157, "EditedText": "Will Ben Wallace give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Ben Wallace give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:00:40.809978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C708063", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Teachers' Pay", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26836, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26836, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 13.0, "ContributionID": 708063, "EditedText": "Is it not the case that today's proposal has little to do with solving this dispute and everything to do with the short-term objective of getting this problem off the minister's desk?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is it not the case that today's proposal has little to do with solving this dispute and everything to do with the short-term objective of getting this problem off the minister's desk?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:00:25.9901853+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C708061", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Teachers' Pay", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26836, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26836, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 9.0, "ContributionID": 708061, "EditedText": "I begin by expressing my regret that the minister has not opted to bring these proposals for proper debate and decision by this Parliament, but has instead opted to hide behind a ministerial statement, giving little opportunity for scrutiny. It is for that reason that I give notice that the SNP intends to use its Opposition debate, next Thursday, to give this Parliament the opportunity to hold the Executive to account for its handling of this issue. I ask the minister to address the following points. First, given that there is a parliamentary committee structure that includes an education committee, how can he justify the additional and substantial cost to the taxpayer of setting up another so-called independent committee? Why does the minister prefer a hand-picked committee to our own parliamentary committee? Secondly, how can the minister argue, as he has done in his statement, that the proposed committee will be independent, when he has already said that he is prepared to predetermine its conclusions? He said in his statement that he has decided to remove the statutory basis from the SJNC. What if—and let me hypothesise—the committee decides, after an inquiry, that the current impasse is not the result of defective negotiating machinery but, as the majority of people in Scotland believe, the result of a defective offer? It was an offer that, I note with interest, he was not prepared to support, even though he expected teachers to vote for it in the recent ballots. My final point relates to resources. Notwithstanding the minister's comments about resources, no one in Scotland doubts that it was a lack of money that was responsible for a pay offer that barely preserves the current position of teachers over a three-year period, that does nothing to tackle the problem of pay erosion, that led to the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities finessing the proposals for structural change to a point at which they were unworkable, and that led to a proposal that would put 100,000 children in Scotland into bigger classes. Given that the proposed committee will be bound by the same financial constraints as COSLA, will we not end up in the same position in May that we are in now: faced with the hard fact that the only way to break the logjam—to use the minister's words—is by providing additional resources? Finally—", "EditedTextHTML": "I begin by expressing my regret that the minister has not opted to bring these proposals for proper debate and decision by this Parliament, but has instead opted to hide behind a ministerial statement, giving little opportunity for scrutiny. It is for that reason that I give notice that the SNP intends to use its Opposition debate, next Thursday, to give this Parliament the opportunity to hold the Executive to account for its handling of this issue.

I ask the minister to address the following points. First, given that there is a parliamentary committee structure that includes an education committee, how can he justify the additional and substantial cost to the taxpayer of setting up another so-called independent committee? Why does the minister prefer a hand-picked committee to our own parliamentary committee?

Secondly, how can the minister argue, as he has done in his statement, that the proposed committee will be independent, when he has already said that he is prepared to predetermine its conclusions? He said in his statement that he has decided to remove the statutory basis from the SJNC. What if—and let me hypothesise—the committee decides, after an inquiry, that the current impasse is not the result of defective negotiating machinery but, as the majority of people in Scotland believe, the result of a defective offer? It was an offer that, I note with interest, he was not prepared to support, even though he expected teachers to vote for it in the recent ballots.

My final point relates to resources. Notwithstanding the minister's comments about resources, no one in Scotland doubts that it was a lack of money that was responsible for a pay offer that barely preserves the current position of teachers over a three-year period, that does nothing to tackle the problem of pay erosion, that led to the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities finessing the proposals for structural change to a point at which they were unworkable, and that led to a proposal that would put 100,000 children in Scotland into bigger classes. Given that the proposed committee will be bound by the same financial constraints as COSLA, will we not end up in the same position in May that we are in now: faced with the hard fact that the only way to break the logjam—to use the minister's words—is by providing additional resources?

Finally—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:00:25.9901853+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1857E136P222C708151", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tourism", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26838, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 109.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 109.0, "ID": 26838, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeill, Pauline", "ID": 1857, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Kelvin" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Pauline McNeill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Pauline McNeill (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 203.0, "ContributionID": 708151, "EditedText": "wonder whether Mr Swinney would care to address, within the context of what he has said about building a successful tourism industry in Scotland, the role of the industry's work force. Does he agree that the introduction of the national minimum wage has made a massive difference to about 175,000 Scots, who have benefited from an increase in wages, and that the poor conditions in the industry are not doing anything to promote it? Will he say what we can do to make the tourism industry more attractive to work in?", "EditedTextHTML": "wonder whether Mr Swinney would care to

address, within the context of what he has said about building a successful tourism industry in Scotland, the role of the industry's work force. Does he agree that the introduction of the national minimum wage has made a massive difference to about 175,000 Scots, who have benefited from an increase in wages, and that the poor conditions in the industry are not doing anything to promote it? Will he say what we can do to make the tourism industry more attractive to work in?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:18:48.0221515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C708153", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tourism", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26838, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 109.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 109.0, "ID": 26838, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 207.0, "ContributionID": 708153, "EditedText": "Actually, I am John Swinney.", "EditedTextHTML": "Actually, I am John Swinney.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:18:48.0221515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C708155", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 22 Sep 1999", "ID": 4179 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-22T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tourism", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26838, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 109.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 109.0, "ID": 26838, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 211.0, "ContributionID": 708155, "EditedText": "Please do not accuse me of being Fergus Ewing. I have been accused of many things, but that is not one of them. As Pauline will know, the SNP supports the national minimum wage and, as my colleague said earlier, we want to see a quality working environment for people in the tourism industry. That will create a sustainable work force. We also have to tackle some of the issues surrounding the duration of the tourist season, to guarantee that people can be offered long-term employment within the industry rather than having to take the limited contracts that are more often available. The funding of area tourist boards is a subject that has been raised many times today, across the Parliament. Fundamental to all the material that I have read—whether it is \"Pathfinders to the Parliament\" or the select committee report—is the issue surrounding the stability of area tourist board funding. That is important for the area tourist boards, because they are under intense pressure from local authority cuts, which ultimately relate to the proportion of the cake that is being distributed by the Scottish Executive to local organisations. Beyond that, there is a huge voluntary sector that supports initiatives in the Scottish tourism sector, where the lack of resources at the level of area tourist boards means that there is insufficient support for particular projects. From my experience of the towns and villages that I represent, I know that much good will goes into creating initiatives, such as folk festivals or Victorian festivals, which, as Ian Jenkins said, attract visitors to particular areas. Those projects are worthy of support and the constraints on the area tourist board funding have a severe impact on that. I will close with a point about the wider dimension. \"Pathfinders to the Parliament\" highlights the context in which we must consider tourism. It is not just about the promotion of one industry, it is about the linkages to issues such as transport and fuel costs, as well as the exorbitant cost of plane flights from London to Edinburgh, the stranglehold that market has on access for foreign visitors and the need for direct transport links from Scotland to our European partners. That would help to strengthen our tourism industry, and I hope that the tourism strategy review will create the environment in which those sensible and imaginative issues can be addressed positively, for the benefit of Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "Please do not accuse me of being Fergus Ewing. I have been accused of many things, but that is not one of them.

As Pauline will know, the SNP supports the national minimum wage and, as my colleague said earlier, we want to see a quality working environment for people in the tourism industry. That will create a sustainable work force. We also have to tackle some of the issues surrounding the duration of the tourist season, to guarantee that people can be offered long-term employment within the industry rather than having to take the limited contracts that are more often available.

The funding of area tourist boards is a subject that has been raised many times today, across the Parliament. Fundamental to all the material that I have read—whether it is \"Pathfinders to the Parliament\" or the select committee report—is the issue surrounding the stability of area tourist board funding. That is important for the area tourist boards, because they are under intense pressure from local authority cuts, which ultimately relate to the proportion of the cake that is being distributed by the Scottish Executive to local organisations. Beyond that, there is a huge voluntary sector that supports initiatives in the Scottish tourism sector, where the lack of resources at the level of area tourist boards means that there is insufficient support for particular projects.

From my experience of the towns and villages that I represent, I know that much good will goes into creating initiatives, such as folk festivals or Victorian festivals, which, as Ian Jenkins said, attract visitors to particular areas. Those projects are worthy of support and the constraints on the area tourist board funding have a severe impact on that.

I will close with a point about the wider dimension. \"Pathfinders to the Parliament\" highlights the context in which we must consider tourism. It is not just about the promotion of one industry, it is about the linkages to issues such as transport and fuel costs, as well as the exorbitant cost of plane flights from London to Edinburgh, the stranglehold that market has on access for foreign visitors and the need for direct transport links from Scotland to our European partners. That would help to strengthen our tourism industry, and I hope that the tourism strategy review will create the environment in which those sensible and imaginative issues can be addressed positively, for the benefit of Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:18:48.0221515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C707784", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 505.0, "ContributionID": 707784, "EditedText": "So you support some form of road pricing, as long as it is congestion charging and is left to the local authorities. That is the approach that is suggested in our consultation paper. I look forward to your endorsement of that suggestion and any other helpful suggestions on how the proposal can be implemented. The SNP has dodged transport issues for months. You have historically argued for highly focused road pricing and your transport spokesperson—", "EditedTextHTML": "So you support some form of road pricing, as long as it is congestion charging and is left to the local authorities. That is the approach that is suggested in our consultation paper. I look forward to your endorsement of that suggestion and any other helpful suggestions on how the proposal can be implemented.

The SNP has dodged transport issues for months. You have historically argued for highly focused road pricing and your transport spokesperson—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:08.9050713+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C707782", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 501.0, "ContributionID": 707782, "EditedText": "I was talking about congestion charging. You said that you supported it in city centres. Is that correct?", "EditedTextHTML": "I was talking about congestion charging. You said that you supported it in city centres. Is that correct?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:08.9050713+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C707848", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26804, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 566.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26805, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "QuestionHeading": "Rail Services", "QuestionHeadingID": 26815, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 649.0, "DisplayOrder": 649.0, "ID": 26815, "ParentID": 26805 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment (Sarah Boyack): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 652.0, "ContributionID": 707848, "EditedText": "Under the devolution settlement for railways, Scottish ministers will be able to give guidance to the authority on cross-border services. The Executive will be discussing with the Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions and the franchising director the detailed arrangements for exercising that function.", "EditedTextHTML": "Under the devolution settlement for railways, Scottish ministers will be able to give guidance to the authority on cross-border services. The Executive will be discussing with the Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions and the franchising director the detailed arrangements for exercising that function.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:08.9050713+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C707920", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Water Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26831, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 803.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 803.0, "ID": 26831, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 813.0, "ContributionID": 707920, "EditedText": "On the last point, the whole purpose of appointing an independent commissioner is that he will be able to take direct responses from consumers. We have ensured that he will chair local forums so that he will able to hear consumers' concerns directly. It is important to stress that all those meetings will be held in public; the meetings will be a matter of public record and people will be able to assess the independence of the water commissioner. I hope that the framework that we have established will provide accountability. Every part of the chain will be open and publicly accountable. It will be possible for the Transport and the Environment Committee, for example, to discuss the issue of the water industry and its regulation in the future. There will be an effective process of accountability, through the Scottish ministers' appointment of the water commissioner, who will report back to them. All that correspondence will be made public. People will be able to see how decisions are being made. The purpose of the commissioner is to act in the interests of consumers and to ensure that they understand the key issues that the water authorities are addressing. At the moment, we do not think that that role is being carried out effectively.", "EditedTextHTML": "On the last point, the whole purpose of appointing an independent commissioner is that he will be able to take direct responses from consumers. We have ensured that he will chair local forums so that he will able to hear consumers' concerns directly. It is important to stress that all those meetings will be held in public; the meetings will be a matter of public record and people will be able to assess the independence of the water commissioner.

I hope that the framework that we have established will provide accountability. Every part of the chain will be open and publicly accountable. It will be possible for the Transport and the Environment Committee, for example, to discuss the issue of the water industry and its regulation in the future. There will be an effective process of accountability, through the Scottish ministers' appointment of the water commissioner, who will report back to them. All that correspondence will be made public. People will be able to see how decisions are being made.

The purpose of the commissioner is to act in the interests of consumers and to ensure that they understand the key issues that the water authorities are addressing. At the moment, we do not think that that role is being carried out effectively.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:08.9207112+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C707941", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Water Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26831, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 803.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 803.0, "ID": 26831, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 855.0, "ContributionID": 707941, "EditedText": "This model was chosen because we felt that it reflected the opportunities provided by the establishment of the Parliament to introduce an effective system that would be accountable to MSPs. It was important to separate off the issue of economic regulation, which we felt was not appropriate for the rural affairs department to operate. The job of ministers is to set overall environmental standards. The water industry commissioner will be able to review local water authorities to ensure that they are providing as efficient and as effective a service as possible. We feel that the chosen model will be economically efficient, will meet environmental standards and will be accountable to Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "This model was chosen because we felt that it reflected the opportunities provided by the establishment of the Parliament to introduce an effective system that would be accountable to MSPs. It was important to separate off the issue of economic regulation, which we felt was not appropriate for the rural affairs department to operate. The job of ministers is to set overall environmental standards. The water industry commissioner will be able to review local water authorities to ensure that they are providing as efficient and as effective a service as possible. We feel that the chosen model will be economically efficient, will meet environmental standards and will be accountable to Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:08.9207112+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C707566", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 50.0, "ContributionID": 707566, "EditedText": "Does Mr Tosh wish to intervene on the issue of public transport?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does Mr Tosh wish to intervene on the issue of public transport?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:05.8270026+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C707568", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 54.0, "ContributionID": 707568, "EditedText": "The Conservative Government left us a legacy of an over-ambitious programme, in Scotland and in the United Kingdom as a whole. We are the Government that now has to work out how to fund that programme and how to prioritise the various schemes within it. Our answers will be clear when I present the strategic roads review to Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Conservative Government left us a legacy of an over-ambitious programme, in Scotland and in the United Kingdom as a whole. We are the Government that now has to work out how to fund that programme and how to prioritise the various schemes within it. Our answers will be clear when I present the strategic roads review to Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:05.8270026+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C707570", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 58.0, "ContributionID": 707570, "EditedText": "Not at this point, Kenny.What about public transport? We heard a little from Mr Tosh about how public transport cannot meet our balanced transport objectives. I will take no lectures from the Conservatives about public transport. In one memorable year, 1996-97, they reduced central Government grants to local authorities for transport investment to zero. Yes, zero. In other words, no money for local roads, no public transport fund, no rural transport fund and no community transport fund. What about the Conservatives' car-friendly policies? As Mr Tosh rightly anticipated, I would like to remind Parliament that the Conservative Government introduced the fuel duty escalator in 1993 and increased it from 3 to 5 per cent. According to a certain Ken Clarke: \"Any critic of the Government's tax plans who claims to also support the international agreement to curb carbon dioxide emissions will be sailing dangerously close to hypocrisy.\" Only yesterday, Michael Meacher reinforced that point when he said that we would need to review the programme in 2002. Who, I wonder, published \"Paying for Better Motorways\", as far back as May 1993? Whose Scottish transport policy statement in February 1997 canvassed the possibility of \"a better use of price signals to influence the demand and supply of road space\"? That is an interesting proposal. The prose is somewhat confused, but the meaning is clear— charge the motorist. Who said those things?", "EditedTextHTML": "Not at this point, Kenny.

What about public transport? We heard a little from Mr Tosh about how public transport cannot meet our balanced transport objectives. I will take no lectures from the Conservatives about public transport. In one memorable year, 1996-97, they reduced central Government grants to local authorities for transport investment to zero. Yes, zero. In other words, no money for local roads, no public transport fund, no rural transport fund and no community transport fund.

What about the Conservatives' car-friendly policies? As Mr Tosh rightly anticipated, I would like to remind Parliament that the Conservative Government introduced the fuel duty escalator in 1993 and increased it from 3 to 5 per cent. According to a certain Ken Clarke:

\"Any critic of the Government's tax plans who claims to also support the international agreement to curb carbon dioxide emissions will be sailing dangerously close to hypocrisy.\"

Only yesterday, Michael Meacher reinforced that point when he said that we would need to review the programme in 2002.

Who, I wonder, published \"Paying for Better Motorways\", as far back as May 1993? Whose Scottish transport policy statement in February 1997 canvassed the possibility of

\"a better use of price signals to influence the demand and supply of road space\"?

That is an interesting proposal. The prose is somewhat confused, but the meaning is clear— charge the motorist. Who said those things?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:05.8270026+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C707581", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 80.0, "ContributionID": 707581, "EditedText": "No, I will not give way yet.The devolution settlement gives us powers in transport policy. We will also vigorously promote Scotland's interest in reserved matters.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I will not give way yet.

The devolution settlement gives us powers in transport policy. We will also vigorously promote Scotland's interest in reserved matters.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:05.8270026+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C707587", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 92.0, "ContributionID": 707587, "EditedText": "Yes, I would be delighted.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes, I would be delighted.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:05.8270026+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C707597", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 112.0, "ContributionID": 707597, "EditedText": "I am not giving way.We will also introduce legislation to place bus quality partnerships on a statutory footing to allow local authorities to introduce quality contracts where appropriate. I recognise many local authorities' concern about recent service withdrawals and tender price increases. We have therefore commissioned a research study to examine trends in the bus market. Although there can be no return to old- style public control, bus operators cannot ignore the wider social context of their activities. I submit that those measures represent a comprehensive and balanced programme for the future. We should be under no illusions about the extent of the challenge. Existing unsustainable transport trends are the product of decades of neglect. However, we have started a process that will deliver a transport system fit for the 21st century. I move, as an amendment to S1M-151 in the name of Mr Murray Tosh, to leave out ‘expresses concern' to the end and insert ‘commends the efforts the Scottish Executive is making to tackle the consequences of 20 years of Conservative transport policies and reverse the resulting legacy of under-investment, rising congestion and environmental degradation, and calls upon the Scottish Executive to continue to work to deliver a sustainable, effective and integrated transport system through in particular the programme of government commitments on investing in public transport, promoting a national transport timetable and bringing forward a transport bill in early 2000 whilst reflecting the diverse transport needs of all Scotland's people, in particular those living in rural areas, and by so doing to take the decisions required to deliver, working with others, an integrated transport system fit for the 21st century.'", "EditedTextHTML": "I am not giving way.

We will also introduce legislation to place bus quality partnerships on a statutory footing to allow local authorities to introduce quality contracts where appropriate.

I recognise many local authorities' concern about recent service withdrawals and tender price increases. We have therefore commissioned a research study to examine trends in the bus market. Although there can be no return to old- style public control, bus operators cannot ignore the wider social context of their activities.

I submit that those measures represent a comprehensive and balanced programme for the future. We should be under no illusions about the extent of the challenge. Existing unsustainable transport trends are the product of decades of neglect. However, we have started a process that will deliver a transport system fit for the 21st century.

I move, as an amendment to S1M-151 in the name of Mr Murray Tosh, to leave out ‘expresses concern' to the end and insert ‘commends the efforts the Scottish Executive is making to tackle the consequences of 20 years of Conservative transport policies and reverse the resulting legacy of under-investment, rising congestion and environmental degradation, and calls upon the Scottish Executive to continue to work to deliver a sustainable, effective and integrated transport system through in particular the programme of government commitments on investing in public transport, promoting a national transport timetable and bringing forward a transport bill in early 2000 whilst reflecting the diverse transport needs of all Scotland's people, in particular those living in rural areas, and by so doing to take the decisions required to deliver, working with others, an integrated transport system fit for the 21st century.'

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:05.8270026+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C707617", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 153.0, "ContributionID": 707617, "EditedText": "Does Mr MacAskill accept that the consultation paper specifies that, if any schemes are suggested—let me make it clear that the Executive has no such proposals for any stretch of our existing trunk roads or motorways— there would have to be extensive research into diversion, as there has been in other countries?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does Mr MacAskill accept that the consultation paper specifies that, if any schemes are suggested—let me make it clear that the Executive has no such proposals for any stretch of our existing trunk roads or motorways— there would have to be extensive research into diversion, as there has been in other countries?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:05.8270026+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1773E197P503C707827", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26804, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 566.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26805, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "QuestionHeading": "Domestic Violence", "QuestionHeadingID": 26810, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 600.0, "DisplayOrder": 600.0, "ID": 26810, "ParentID": 26805 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hyslop, Fiona", "ID": 1773, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona Hyslop", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona Hyslop: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 605.0, "ContributionID": 707827, "EditedText": "Is the minister aware that 8,000 women and children had to be turned away from women's refuges? In Hamilton, she will be interested to know, 300 women and children were turned away. Will she make every possible effort to negotiate with her Minister for Finance to ensure that refuge places—which were the subject of an excellent debate in the chamber last week— will be doubled?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is the minister aware that 8,000 women and children had to be turned away from women's refuges? In Hamilton, she will be interested to know, 300 women and children were turned away. Will she make every possible effort to negotiate with her Minister for Finance to ensure that refuge places—which were the subject of an excellent debate in the chamber last week— will be doubled?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:00:34.116328+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2133E222P520C707851", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26804, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 566.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26805, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "QuestionHeading": "Health Care", "QuestionHeadingID": 26816, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 658.0, "DisplayOrder": 658.0, "ID": 26816, "ParentID": 26805 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Matheson, Michael", "ID": 2133, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Matheson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "13. Michael Matheson (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 659.0, "ContributionID": 707851, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what action is being taken to improve services for those who suffer from terminal illness. (S1O-300) The Deputy Minister for Community Care (Iain Gray): The Scottish Executive aims to provide services that respond to patients' needs. Health boards are responsible for meeting the health care needs of their regional populations, including, of course, those who are terminally ill. Where there is an element of social care, the aim is to provide services that are as responsive and seamless as possible. We and the services concerned are always willing to consider ways to improve responsiveness.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what action is being taken to improve services for those who suffer from terminal illness. (S1O-300) The Deputy Minister for Community Care (Iain Gray): The Scottish Executive aims to provide services that respond to patients' needs. Health boards are responsible for meeting the health care needs of their regional populations, including, of course, those who are terminally ill. Where there is an element of social care, the aim is to provide services that are as responsive and seamless as possible. We and the services concerned are always willing to consider ways to improve responsiveness.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:20.9670782+00:00" }, { "ID": "C707546", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Thursday 16 September 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26800, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26800, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 9.0, "ContributionID": 707546, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1908E166P251C707550", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Kerr, Andy", "ID": 1908, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Kilbride" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andy Kerr", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Andy Kerr (East Kilbride) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 18.0, "ContributionID": 707550, "EditedText": "How does that argument square with the Conservatives' cuts in the roads budget from £247 million to £162 million, and with their reductions in grants to local authorities to absolute zero? How does that fit with Mr Tosh's argument about business, and the Confederation of British Industry and its comments?", "EditedTextHTML": "How does that argument square with the Conservatives' cuts in the roads budget from £247 million to £162 million, and with their reductions in grants to local authorities to absolute zero? How does that fit with Mr Tosh's argument about business, and the Confederation of British Industry and its comments?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C707557", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 32.0, "ContributionID": 707557, "EditedText": "Andy should examine the current year and the projections for the next few years before interrupting me again. Nobody has been prepared to say that toll money will be additional or that motorists will gain from it. I am not belittling the importance of investing in our railway infrastructure, because, if members will forgive the expression, we have set in train an important programme of investment. In order for any policy to win public acceptance, there must be a promise that some proportion of the money will go towards roads expenditure. That commitment has not been given. There is no commitment from the Government to do any significant work on our major arterial routes. That cannot be right and will not be accepted. If that is really the Executive's point of view, it will find itself in severe political difficulty. I am moving on to develop the next two points of the motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "Andy should examine the current year and the projections for the next few years before interrupting me again.

Nobody has been prepared to say that toll money will be additional or that motorists will gain from it. I am not belittling the importance of investing in our railway infrastructure, because, if members will forgive the expression, we have set in train an important programme of investment. In order for any policy to win public acceptance, there must be a promise that some proportion of the money will go towards roads expenditure. That commitment has not been given. There is no commitment from the Government to do any significant work on our major arterial routes. That cannot be right and will not be accepted. If that is really the Executive's point of view, it will find itself in severe political difficulty.

I am moving on to develop the next two points of the motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C707563", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 44.0, "ContributionID": 707563, "EditedText": "No, I am sorry, Mr Morgan. I intended to give way, but Sir David is indicating that I have to wind up. I have already taken two interventions, as well as Mr Kerr's second, unofficial, one. The Conservative party is concerned that the Government is embarking on a policy that consists largely of attacking the motorist. We think that the balance of the policy is wrong. There needs to be more commitment to our major arterial routes, and there needs to be a more balanced approach to fuel policy. Indeed, the Government's policies are out of balance in a number of areas. We agree that there is much work to be done on transport, and that pollution problems in our cities must be tackled. However, the Government has not communicated its view of where the strategic transport network fits in with our economy, and where roads fit into that strategic transport network. I move,That the Parliament welcomes the increased profile that has been given to transport issues and the Scottish Executive's commitment to continue reducing vehicle emission levels; recognises the importance of Scotland's transport links by road, rail, sea and air to our markets in the rest of the UK, the European Union and beyond; expresses concern that the Scottish Executive does not attach sufficient importance to the strategic road network, and calls upon the Scottish Executive to— (a) increase the current level of spending on construction and maintenance of the trunk road network as part of the strategic roads review; (b) withdraw the proposals to levy new tolls and taxes on motorists and other road users; (c) initiate urgent talks with Her Majesty's Government with a view to increasing the share of the UK budget devoted to transport to allow strategic road and rail investment to proceed so that Scotland's needs are reflected in policies pursued at a UK level, and (d) urge Her Majesty's Government to review the level of fuel taxes and vehicle excise duties.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I am sorry, Mr Morgan. I intended to give way, but Sir David is indicating that I have to wind up. I have already taken two interventions, as well as Mr Kerr's second, unofficial, one.

The Conservative party is concerned that the Government is embarking on a policy that consists largely of attacking the motorist. We think that the balance of the policy is wrong. There needs to be more commitment to our major arterial routes, and there needs to be a more balanced approach to fuel policy. Indeed, the Government's policies are out of balance in a number of areas.

We agree that there is much work to be done on transport, and that pollution problems in our cities must be tackled. However, the Government has not communicated its view of where the strategic transport network fits in with our economy, and where roads fit into that strategic transport network.

I move,

That the Parliament welcomes the increased profile that has been given to transport issues and the Scottish Executive's commitment to continue reducing vehicle emission levels; recognises the importance of Scotland's transport links by road, rail, sea and air to our markets in the rest of the UK, the European Union and beyond; expresses concern that the Scottish Executive does not attach sufficient importance to the strategic road network, and calls upon the Scottish Executive to— (a) increase the current level of spending on construction and maintenance of the trunk road network as part of the strategic roads review; (b) withdraw the proposals to levy new tolls and taxes on motorists and other road users; (c) initiate urgent talks with Her Majesty's Government with a view to increasing the share of the UK budget devoted to transport to allow strategic road and rail investment to proceed so that Scotland's needs are reflected in policies pursued at a UK level, and (d) urge Her Majesty's Government to review the level of fuel taxes and vehicle excise duties.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C707565", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 48.0, "ContributionID": 707565, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C707575", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie (Lothians) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 68.0, "ContributionID": 707575, "EditedText": "On a point of order. John Redwood is not the transport spokesman for the Conservatives; Mr Tosh is.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. John Redwood is not the transport spokesman for the Conservatives; Mr Tosh is.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C707582", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 82.0, "ContributionID": 707582, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C707584", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 86.0, "ContributionID": 707584, "EditedText": "May I correct the minister on one point? Mr Tosh referred continually to public transport issues. What representations has the minister made concerning the provision of the air traffic control centre at Prestwick? The promise to provide such a centre has not been fulfilled by the Labour Government, and I suggest that it will not be implemented this century.", "EditedTextHTML": "May I correct the minister on one point? Mr Tosh referred continually to public transport issues.

What representations has the minister made concerning the provision of the air traffic control centre at Prestwick? The promise to provide such a centre has not been fulfilled by the Labour Government, and I suggest that it will not be implemented this century.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C707592", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 102.0, "ContributionID": 707592, "EditedText": "I beg your pardon.", "EditedTextHTML": "I beg your pardon.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C707593", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Rural Affairs (Ross Finnie): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 104.0, "ContributionID": 707593, "EditedText": "I thought that that was my department.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thought that that was my department.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C707594", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 106.0, "ContributionID": 707594, "EditedText": "Y-O-U, Mr Finnie.", "EditedTextHTML": "Y-O-U, Mr Finnie.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C707596", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bruce Crawford (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP) rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 110.0, "ContributionID": 707596, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C707599", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 116.0, "ContributionID": 707599, "EditedText": "That is not a point of order. The minister will have a chance to respond to that point at the end of the debate.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is not a point of order. The minister will have a chance to respond to that point at the end of the debate.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C707601", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 121.0, "ContributionID": 707601, "EditedText": "I suggest that Mr MacAskill looks at Railtrack's £27 billion investment programme, the £2 billion programme for Scotland and the investment plans of all the franchise operators. The minister advised the Transport and the Environment Committee that the new rolling stock would be appearing in the next couple of years—", "EditedTextHTML": "I suggest that Mr MacAskill looks at Railtrack's £27 billion investment programme, the £2 billion programme for Scotland and the investment plans of all the franchise operators. The minister advised the Transport and the Environment Committee that the new rolling stock would be appearing in the next couple of years—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C707603", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 125.0, "ContributionID": 707603, "EditedText": "Does Mr MacAskill agree that he will find the answer to his question there?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does Mr MacAskill agree that he will find the answer to his question there?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2112E192P495C707608", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacAskill, Kenny", "ID": 2112, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenny MacAskill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr MacAskill: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 135.0, "ContributionID": 707608, "EditedText": "Not at the moment, Murray.We must remember that, while we were getting the M74 and the other much-needed road improvements that were mentioned, the infrastructure down south had already been built. The problems south of the border—on the M3 and the M25—are to do not with the lack of infrastructure, but with congestion. The links have been built south of the border; SNP members want Scotland to have x infrastructures and x links built, too. The cost of motoring affects us all—motorists, consumers and businesses. It is crippling people and harming our economy. There are two aspects to that: the fuel price escalator and Government excise duty. We are told that the fuel price escalator was introduced by the Tories, first at 3 per cent plus inflation, then at 5 per cent plus inflation and then at 6 per cent plus inflation. The fact is that the ground has shifted under the Government's feet. The Government has to answer for its culpability in not making appropriate representations and protecting Scotland's interests. When the fuel escalator was increased to 6 per cent plus inflation, it was assumed that inflation would be 2.5 per cent. Oil prices have doubled, however, and that has meant that, in the past eight months—", "EditedTextHTML": "Not at the moment, Murray.

We must remember that, while we were getting the M74 and the other much-needed road improvements that were mentioned, the infrastructure down south had already been built. The problems south of the border—on the M3 and the M25—are to do not with the lack of infrastructure, but with congestion. The links have been built south of the border; SNP members want Scotland to have x infrastructures and x links built, too.

The cost of motoring affects us all—motorists, consumers and businesses. It is crippling people

and harming our economy. There are two aspects to that: the fuel price escalator and Government excise duty. We are told that the fuel price escalator was introduced by the Tories, first at 3 per cent plus inflation, then at 5 per cent plus inflation and then at 6 per cent plus inflation.

The fact is that the ground has shifted under the Government's feet. The Government has to answer for its culpability in not making appropriate representations and protecting Scotland's interests. When the fuel escalator was increased to 6 per cent plus inflation, it was assumed that inflation would be 2.5 per cent. Oil prices have doubled, however, and that has meant that, in the past eight months—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C707618", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 155.0, "ContributionID": 707618, "EditedText": "Mr MacAskill, you are on your final minute.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr MacAskill, you are on your final minute.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1803E78P291C707627", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gillon, Karen", "ID": 1803, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Clydesdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Karen Gillon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Karen Gillon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 173.0, "ContributionID": 707627, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1803E78P291C707631", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gillon, Karen", "ID": 1803, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Clydesdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Karen Gillon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Karen Gillon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 181.0, "ContributionID": 707631, "EditedText": "How will Mr MacAskill fund that deficit?", "EditedTextHTML": "How will Mr MacAskill fund that deficit?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2112E192P495C707632", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacAskill, Kenny", "ID": 2112, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenny MacAskill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr MacAskill: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 183.0, "ContributionID": 707632, "EditedText": "It has already been funded by the change in the price of a barrel of oil; it has been funded by what the Government has taken in petroleum revenue tax. Does Karen Gillon not think that the chancellor gets money in his pocket when the price of a barrel of oil goes up? When that document was written, the price of a barrel of oil was far lower. Let me deal with Andy's point about congestion charging. We believe that congestion charging is vastly different from motorway tolling. We would use it sympathetically. We would not impose it if areas did not want it. For example, Mr Lazarowicz could persuade the City of Edinburgh Council that it was a good thing and Mr Gordon could persuade Glasgow City Council that it was a bad thing. It is up to the local authorities to decide. There must be hypothecation for transport and infrastructure. Before congestion charging is implemented, it must be predicated on improvements in public transport. People in public transport, as anyone who has spoken to them will know, say that they could not cope—", "EditedTextHTML": "It has already been funded by the change in the price of a barrel of oil; it has been funded by what the Government has taken in petroleum revenue tax. Does Karen Gillon not think that the chancellor gets money in his pocket when the price of a barrel of oil goes up? When that document was written, the price of a barrel of oil was far lower.

Let me deal with Andy's point about congestion charging. We believe that congestion charging is vastly different from motorway tolling. We would use it sympathetically. We would not impose it if areas did not want it. For example, Mr Lazarowicz could persuade the City of Edinburgh Council that it was a good thing and Mr Gordon could persuade Glasgow City Council that it was a bad thing. It is up to the local authorities to decide.

There must be hypothecation for transport and infrastructure. Before congestion charging is implemented, it must be predicated on improvements in public transport. People in public transport, as anyone who has spoken to them will know, say that they could not cope—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2112E192P495C707634", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacAskill, Kenny", "ID": 2112, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenny MacAskill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr MacAskill: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 187.0, "ContributionID": 707634, "EditedText": "No I will not. I am trying to wind up. As I was saying, the present system could not cope with the increase in passengers. Congestion charging is important and should be considered for two reasons. First, there is an economic argument. In Scotland, hauliers experience delays not at Harthill on the M8, but when they enter Edinburgh or Glasgow at Barnton or Baillieston. Scotland's economic lifeblood is slowed down by traffic congestion, and if we are to allow trade and commerce to develop, we require flexibility at those bottlenecks at peak times.", "EditedTextHTML": "No I will not. I am trying to wind up.

As I was saying, the present system could not cope with the increase in passengers. Congestion charging is important and should be considered for two reasons. First, there is an economic argument. In Scotland, hauliers experience delays not at Harthill on the M8, but when they enter Edinburgh or Glasgow at Barnton or Baillieston. Scotland's economic lifeblood is slowed down by traffic congestion, and if we are to allow trade and commerce to develop, we require flexibility at those bottlenecks at peak times.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C707639", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 198.0, "ContributionID": 707639, "EditedText": "Mr Scott must acknowledge that I mentioned buses and rail in my speech. I welcomed improvements in both services and the subject of strategic rail investment appears in the motion. Our view is that even if we achieve the most optimistic, realistic goals for bus and rail movements, we cannot ignore the central fact that roads will account for the vast majority of our people and vehicle movements. That is where we are coming from; we do not dismiss the importance of buses or railways.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Scott must acknowledge that I mentioned buses and rail in my speech. I welcomed improvements in both services and the subject of strategic rail investment appears in the motion. Our view is that even if we achieve the most optimistic, realistic goals for bus and rail movements, we cannot ignore the central fact that roads will account for the vast majority of our people and vehicle movements. That is where we are coming from; we do not dismiss the importance of buses or railways.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2223E203P342C707642", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scott, Tavish", "ID": 2223, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Shetland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tavish Scott", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tavish Scott: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 204.0, "ContributionID": 707642, "EditedText": "No, Mr Tosh has already had one go; he has been up and down faster than a number of things I could mention. Laughter. To ignore public transport is one thing, but to oppose congestion charging is another. The former is confirmation that the Tories have lost none of their prejudices; the latter illustrates a degree of hypocrisy. How Lord James can sign the motion—in particular paragraph (b), which opposes tolls—when he was the Scottish transport minister who introduced the Skye bridge tolls, is quite beyond my humble comprehension. However, it is not fair to mention only Lord James. I will quote Ian Lang, then Secretary of State for Scotland, from the document \"Paying for Better Motorways\". Last week, the Tories made much of the colour of documents; the cover of this one is a nice tone of blue. \"Charging could provide another source of financing for improving roads. This would improve the service to road users . . . and ensure that we make more effective use of the existing network.\" Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con)rose—", "EditedTextHTML": "No, Mr Tosh has already had one go; he has been up and down faster than a number of things I could mention. [Laughter.]

To ignore public transport is one thing, but to oppose congestion charging is another. The former is confirmation that the Tories have lost none of their prejudices; the latter illustrates a degree of hypocrisy. How Lord James can sign the motion—in particular paragraph (b), which opposes tolls—when he was the Scottish transport minister who introduced the Skye bridge tolls, is quite beyond my humble comprehension.

However, it is not fair to mention only Lord James. I will quote Ian Lang, then Secretary of State for Scotland, from the document \"Paying for Better Motorways\". Last week, the Tories made much of the colour of documents; the cover of this one is a nice tone of blue.

\"Charging could provide another source of financing for improving roads. This would improve the service to road users . . . and ensure that we make more effective use of the existing network.\"

Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con)

rose—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2223E203P342C707653", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scott, Tavish", "ID": 2223, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Shetland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tavish Scott", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tavish Scott: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 226.0, "ContributionID": 707653, "EditedText": "As is so often the case, the SNP and the Conservatives are united in their affliction—short-term memory loss. Under Ian Lang, the Tories suggested road charging. They have now forgotten that. The SNP proposed city centre congestion charging, but it has forgotten that, too. The Liberal Democrats in Scotland support an honest debate about our transport needs. We support the amendment in the name of Sarah Boyack to implement lasting improvements to meet the transport needs of our cities and towns and our island and rural communities. There is work to be done on behalf of the people of Scotland to achieve those aims. From today's debate, it is clear that the Tory-SNP Opposition simply does not match up to the challenge.", "EditedTextHTML": "As is so often the case, the SNP and the Conservatives are united in their affliction—short-term memory loss. Under Ian Lang, the Tories suggested road charging. They have now forgotten that. The SNP proposed city centre congestion charging, but it has forgotten that, too.

The Liberal Democrats in Scotland support an honest debate about our transport needs. We support the amendment in the name of Sarah Boyack to implement lasting improvements to meet the transport needs of our cities and towns and our island and rural communities. There is work to be done on behalf of the people of Scotland to achieve those aims. From today's debate, it is clear that the Tory-SNP Opposition simply does not match up to the challenge.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C707654", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 228.0, "ContributionID": 707654, "EditedText": "Further to the announcement made earlier by the Presiding Officer, the debate on the motion on Continental Tyres in the name of Lord James Douglas- Hamilton will take place for 20 minutes at 2.10 pm. That will allow the minister to be present and more time for this debate, in which many members have indicated their intention to participate. This debate will conclude at 12.20 pm as originally planned.", "EditedTextHTML": "Further to the announcement made earlier by the Presiding Officer, the debate on the motion on Continental Tyres in the name of Lord James Douglas- Hamilton will take place for 20 minutes at 2.10 pm. That will allow the minister to be present and more time for this debate, in which many members have indicated their intention to participate. This debate will conclude at 12.20 pm as originally planned.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1908E166P251C707657", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Kerr, Andy", "ID": 1908, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Kilbride" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andy Kerr", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Kerr: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 235.0, "ContributionID": 707657, "EditedText": "Never a debate goes by without Kenny or one of his colleagues raising the whole issue of the settlement debate. The country voted resoundingly in favour of the settlement in the referendum, which is why the situation is as it is. Whenever Labour and the SNP's policies on reserved matters are discussed, the SNP fails to answer the question. Kenny has still not told us what the SNP's policy on congestion charging will do for the environment. What are the figures? What are the statistics? What would the policy deliver for Scotland and for the world environment? We still have no clear answer. All the Executive is doing is consulting. We are a listening Government, here and at Westminster. We have spent lots of money and given lots of resources to local authorities. The results can be seen every day on our streets in the number of red and green routes that are being introduced in cities throughout Scotland. Additional funding has also been given to rural areas. Murray Tosh, with all due respect, did not criticise the SNP at all in his speech, yet in the Daily Mail earlier this month, he said that the SNP \"should re-visit their policy, recognise the contradictory nature of their statements and change their approach.\" There are contradictions in what the SNP says. On the one hand, it does not want charges—it does not want the fuel duty escalator or road charging— but it cannot say what it will do instead. How would the SNP fund the major changes that are required? How would the modal shifts that Murray talked about—the need to get people out of their cars and on to public transport—be achieved? The SNP has no solution. When asked the same question on the radio, Kenny MacAskill had no answer either. I have the transcript of the radio programme. The interviewer asked him how, if he wanted to reduce fuel duty charges and did not want to introduce any charges or road tolls, he would fund improvements. He had no reply. I hope that when Linda Fabiani sums up, she will. I am glad that the full SNP team is here, because there are questions to be answered about the party's policies. The SNP has never delivered and continues not to deliver for Scotland's environment. Our approach is to say that we need an integrated policy that will deliver on public transport, for the private car user, for business and for the economy. The position of the SNP and its Tory Opposition colleagues is simply to say, \"No, no, no\" to any charges, without presenting any realistic alternatives to the Government's proposals. It is absolute hypocrisy for the SNP to criticise the Executive for considering user charges when in past manifesto statements the SNP has said that it would examine the issue of road pricing and road charging. We need to get back to the issue of the environment and address the roads problem maturely. Too many people are using their cars because public transport is not good enough to make them change, but the roads are not good enough for them to use because of the number of vehicles on them. Those issues must be addressed through an integrated policy, as set out clearly in the Executive's motion. This is the first time in many years that an integrated approach to transport has been adopted, and it is thanks to this Parliament that we can deliver an integrated strategy for Scotland. I hope that members will support the Executive's position, which is the only way in which we can deliver for road users, for those who use public transport and for the environment, particularly on emissions.", "EditedTextHTML": "Never a debate goes by without Kenny or one of his colleagues raising the whole issue of the settlement debate. The country voted resoundingly in favour of the settlement in the referendum, which is why the situation is as it is.

Whenever Labour and the SNP's policies on reserved matters are discussed, the SNP fails to answer the question. Kenny has still not told us what the SNP's policy on congestion charging will do for the environment. What are the figures? What are the statistics? What would the policy deliver for Scotland and for the world environment? We still have no clear answer.

All the Executive is doing is consulting. We are a listening Government, here and at Westminster. We have spent lots of money and given lots of resources to local authorities. The results can be seen every day on our streets in the number of red and green routes that are being introduced in cities throughout Scotland. Additional funding has also been given to rural areas.

Murray Tosh, with all due respect, did not criticise the SNP at all in his speech, yet in the Daily Mail earlier this month, he said that the SNP

\"should re-visit their policy, recognise the contradictory nature of their statements and change their approach.\"

There are contradictions in what the SNP says. On the one hand, it does not want charges—it does not want the fuel duty escalator or road charging— but it cannot say what it will do instead. How would the SNP fund the major changes that are required? How would the modal shifts that Murray talked about—the need to get people out of their cars and on to public transport—be achieved? The SNP has no solution.

When asked the same question on the radio, Kenny MacAskill had no answer either. I have the transcript of the radio programme. The interviewer asked him how, if he wanted to reduce fuel duty charges and did not want to introduce any charges or road tolls, he would fund improvements. He had no reply. I hope that when Linda Fabiani sums up, she will. I am glad that the full SNP team is here, because there are questions to be answered about the party's policies.

The SNP has never delivered and continues not to deliver for Scotland's environment. Our approach is to say that we need an integrated policy that will deliver on public transport, for the private car user, for business and for the economy. The position of the SNP and its Tory Opposition colleagues is simply to say, \"No, no, no\" to any charges, without presenting any realistic alternatives to the Government's proposals.

It is absolute hypocrisy for the SNP to criticise the Executive for considering user charges when in past manifesto statements the SNP has said that it would examine the issue of road pricing and road charging.

We need to get back to the issue of the environment and address the roads problem maturely. Too many people are using their cars because public transport is not good enough to make them change, but the roads are not good enough for them to use because of the number of vehicles on them.

Those issues must be addressed through an integrated policy, as set out clearly in the Executive's motion. This is the first time in many years that an integrated approach to transport has been adopted, and it is thanks to this Parliament that we can deliver an integrated strategy for Scotland.

I hope that members will support the Executive's position, which is the only way in which we can deliver for road users, for those who use public transport and for the environment, particularly on emissions.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C707659", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bruce Crawford: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 240.0, "ContributionID": 707659, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2099E29P51C707660", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Young, John", "ID": 2099, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Young", "SpeakerDisplayName": "John Young: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 242.0, "ContributionID": 707660, "EditedText": "I will not give way just now. I might give way further down the line, once I have got into my speech.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will not give way just now. I might give way further down the line, once I have got into my speech.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1751E163P286C707665", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Craigie, Cathie", "ID": 1751, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Cumbernauld and Kilsyth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Cathie Craigie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Cathie Craigie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 253.0, "ContributionID": 707665, "EditedText": "I support Sarah Boyack's amendment. The Labour Government came to power in the UK promising to start to provide an integrated transport system. The Scottish Labour party went to the electorate in May promising to continue that approach, and I am glad to see that it has been taken up by the Executive and is now the subject of wide consultation with the people of Scotland. Under the Tories, our transport network was crumbling, crippled through lack of investment. As has been said, they cut money for road improvement and gave up on local transport and congestion. In fact, the Tories gave up on the car owner, the transport industry and the one in three households that do not own a car and that depend on public transport in order to get about. The Tories ignored our growing transport needs and, as the Deputy Prime Minister has said, the Tories caused the traffic jams that we see across the country.", "EditedTextHTML": "I support Sarah Boyack's amendment.

The Labour Government came to power in the UK promising to start to provide an integrated transport system. The Scottish Labour party went to the electorate in May promising to continue that approach, and I am glad to see that it has been taken up by the Executive and is now the subject of wide consultation with the people of Scotland.

Under the Tories, our transport network was crumbling, crippled through lack of investment. As has been said, they cut money for road improvement and gave up on local transport and congestion. In fact, the Tories gave up on the car owner, the transport industry and the one in three households that do not own a car and that depend on public transport in order to get about. The Tories ignored our growing transport needs and, as the Deputy Prime Minister has said, the Tories caused the traffic jams that we see across the country.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C707670", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bruce Crawford: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 263.0, "ContributionID": 707670, "EditedText": "I want to share some of your thoughts, Cathie, as I think that you agree that the real hypocrisy comes from the Conservatives. They destroyed the roads network across Scotland during their time in power. As an example, the minor roads in Perth and Kinross are supposed to be relaid every 25 years, not every 75 years.", "EditedTextHTML": "I want to share some of your thoughts, Cathie, as I think that you agree that the real hypocrisy comes from the Conservatives. They destroyed the roads network across Scotland during their time in power. As an example, the minor roads in Perth and Kinross are supposed to be relaid every 25 years, not every 75 years.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C707674", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 271.0, "ContributionID": 707674, "EditedText": "Remarks should be made through the chair, and should be in the form of a question.", "EditedTextHTML": "Remarks should be made through the chair, and should be in the form of a question.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2099E29P51C707676", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Young, John", "ID": 2099, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Young", "SpeakerDisplayName": "John Young rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 275.0, "ContributionID": 707676, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1751E163P286C707679", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Craigie, Cathie", "ID": 1751, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Cumbernauld and Kilsyth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Cathie Craigie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Cathie Craigie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 281.0, "ContributionID": 707679, "EditedText": "I have raised my constituents' concerns with the minister and I look forward to the publication of the strategic roads review. I hope that it will include measures to reduce the congestion in the towns and villages along the route of the A80. I hope that there will be a large number of respondents to the Government's consultation paper and that the exercise will produce a transport policy that will provide genuine choice to meet the needs of the people of Scotland. I return to the point that was made by my friend from the SNP benches, Bruce Crawford. The Tory motion is a hypocritical sham, and I ask the Parliament to reject it.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have raised my constituents' concerns with the minister and I look forward to the publication of the strategic roads review. I hope that it will include measures to reduce the congestion in the towns and villages along the route of the A80. I hope that there will be a large number of respondents to the Government's consultation paper and that the exercise will produce a transport policy that will provide genuine choice to meet the needs of the people of Scotland.

I return to the point that was made by my friend from the SNP benches, Bruce Crawford. The Tory motion is a hypocritical sham, and I ask the Parliament to reject it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2099E29P51C707687", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Young, John", "ID": 2099, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Young", "SpeakerDisplayName": "John Young rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 298.0, "ContributionID": 707687, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C707693", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Brian Monteith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 310.0, "ContributionID": 707693, "EditedText": "Will Kenny give way to me? I am not Mr Tosh.", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Kenny give way to me? I am not Mr Tosh.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C707695", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 314.0, "ContributionID": 707695, "EditedText": "It might be helpful to members if I say that in a five-minute speech up to four interventions might be reasonable, otherwise members further down the list who wish to speak will not get called.", "EditedTextHTML": "It might be helpful to members if I say that in a five-minute speech up to four interventions might be reasonable, otherwise members further down the list who wish to speak will not get called.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1962E35P56C707701", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mundell, David", "ID": 1962, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Mundell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David Mundell (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 327.0, "ContributionID": 707701, "EditedText": "I was pleased that, during a recent visit to Moffat in Dumfriesshire to hand over a community minibus, the Minister for Transport and the Environment acknowledged that in rural areas the car is the only viable form of transport for many people and that that was likely to be the case for the foreseeable future. It is vital that that statement is backed up by deeds. The whole tone of Government policy and action is profoundly urban and anti-car, painting the car driver, no matter their need, as a pariah. The contrast between car use in the city and in rural areas is marked. I have found that myself, living in Edinburgh for even a few days a week. From the flat here, I can walk—and I am happy to do so—to the range of facilities that I need. I can get a bus from early in the morning to well into the evening. That is not the case for people who live in small towns and villages across Scotland. For example, in the town of Langholm—again in Dumfriesshire—a major survey was done into the cost of building and running a swimming pool adjacent to the town's school. The survey showed that although funding would be available from various sources to construct the pool, the running costs could not be met by use. While the community accepts that providing that facility is not possible on a cost basis, it cannot accept the extraordinarily high cost of fuel in the area, or that people should be penalised for travelling to and from facilities in neighbouring towns—or across the border to Carlisle, which is some 20 miles away.", "EditedTextHTML": "I was pleased that, during a recent visit to Moffat in Dumfriesshire to hand over a community minibus, the Minister for Transport and the Environment acknowledged that in rural areas the car is the only viable form of transport for many people and that that was likely to be the case for the foreseeable future. It is vital that that statement is backed up by deeds. The whole tone of Government policy and action is profoundly urban and anti-car, painting the car driver, no matter their need, as a pariah.

The contrast between car use in the city and in rural areas is marked. I have found that myself, living in Edinburgh for even a few days a week. From the flat here, I can walk—and I am happy to do so—to the range of facilities that I need. I can get a bus from early in the morning to well into the evening. That is not the case for people who live in small towns and villages across Scotland.

For example, in the town of Langholm—again in Dumfriesshire—a major survey was done into the cost of building and running a swimming pool adjacent to the town's school. The survey showed that although funding would be available from various sources to construct the pool, the running costs could not be met by use. While the community accepts that providing that facility is not possible on a cost basis, it cannot accept the extraordinarily high cost of fuel in the area, or that people should be penalised for travelling to and from facilities in neighbouring towns—or across the border to Carlisle, which is some 20 miles away.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1768E72P274C707702", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Murray, Elaine", "ID": 1768, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumfries" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Murray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Elaine Murray (Dumfries) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 329.0, "ContributionID": 707702, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1803E78P291C707707", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gillon, Karen", "ID": 1803, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Clydesdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Karen Gillon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Karen Gillon rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 339.0, "ContributionID": 707707, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2085E206P337C707715", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Munro, John Farquhar", "ID": 2085, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ross, Skye and Inverness West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Farquhar Munro", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Munro: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 356.0, "ContributionID": 707715, "EditedText": "The Liberal Democrat policy has not changed. Our policy of imposing a levy on fuel costs was a green policy designed to address the issue of congestion and pollution in cities. We adhere to that. We employ a quite different concept when we address the difficulties of rural Scotland. The fuel petition has been delivered previously to the Office of Fair Trading and we await a response. I need not tell anyone in here of the adverse effect of high fuel prices in rural Scotland, but 85 per cent of the cost of fuel is taken up by taxes of one form or another.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Liberal Democrat policy has not changed. Our policy of imposing a levy on fuel costs was a green policy designed to address the issue of congestion and pollution in cities. We adhere to that. We employ a quite different concept when we address the difficulties of rural Scotland.

The fuel petition has been delivered previously to the Office of Fair Trading and we await a response.

I need not tell anyone in here of the adverse effect of high fuel prices in rural Scotland, but 85 per cent of the cost of fuel is taken up by taxes of one form or another.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2122E6P19C707719", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay", "ID": 2122, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lyndsay McIntosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Lyndsay McIntosh (Central Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 366.0, "ContributionID": 707719, "EditedText": "I shall contain my remarks to points of safety. I do not know everyone's listening habits in the morning, but I always listen to the traffic reports by the whirly girlie or from the eye in the sky or by one of those leather-clad motorcyclists, with their on-the-spot assessment of traffic buildups on the major roads. It will come as no surprise—as I served notice on it in my first speech in the chamber—that the road that causes me and thousands of others the most concern is the A77, which is rightly known as the killer road. When I was a girl living in East Kilbride, a trip to the seaside, on the Ayrshire coast, was a delightful anticipation. The journey over Fenwick moor and the A77, with its bumps and hollows, was as thrilling as any white-knuckle ride at a theme park. But that was 40 years ago. At 39 and holding, Kay Ullrich would certainly not remember anything that far back—or she would not admit to it. Forty years ago, there were not as many cars on the road and they did not travel as fast as they do nowadays. The A77 was a dangerous road then; it is positively lethal now. Apart from filter lanes and a small stretch of dual carriageway with lighting at the Galston Road end, the road has changed little between Malletsheugh and Fenwick. That the road is busier now is beyond question. I added to the volume of traffic when I stood as a candidate in Kilmarnock and Loudoun. The upgrading of the A77 was one of the main campaigning issues. Its importance far outweighed the concerns about education, taxes, jobs and the economy, important though those issues are. The message was loud and clear: \"Do something about that killer road.\" I attended the meeting on 12 November at Fenwick, when Calum Macdonald was in charge of the strategic roads review and came to hear the strength of local feeling. The local community council was represented, as was East Ayrshire Council, and many others came to express their support for the upgrading of the road. Figures showing that the road was carrying motorway volume traffic were incontrovertible—all that on a road with two lanes in each direction, but no central barrier or reservation. At peak traffic times, it takes only a millisecond's distraction for an accident of catastrophic proportions to happen. There does not have to be a driver at fault; an accident can be caused by someone coming in the opposite direction moving out by a fraction to pass a bus or lorry. At 60 mph in each direction—that is the speed limit—there are not many who walk away from a head-on collision unscathed. We are not all as fortunate as Jacques Villeneuve in having a wall of tyres piled high and five deep to hit. What happens on the dreadful days when there is a serious accident on the A77? The air ambulance is frequently summoned to deal with the casualties, because medics cannot get through by the road. Traffic is diverted through the village of Fenwick, or perhaps through Kilmaurs and Stewarton, on roads that were never meant to carry such a volume of traffic. In winter, it is worse still, because the minor roads through those villages are not gritted. Tens of thousands of people use the road every day to commute to work. Thousands of people in the area do as I do in the morning and listen for the traffic update, advising that there are no major problems on the A77: that members of their family will have arrived at work safe and sound.The experience is repeated at the end of the working day until there is that reassuring sound of a car door closing and the key in the door signalling that another journey on the killer road has been safely completed. If the Minister for Transport and the Environment doubted the strength of feeling about the road, I can assure her that the three candidates who stood in the Kilmarnock and Loudoun constituency all heard the same pleas and are now members of this Parliament. Margaret Jamieson is not in the chamber, but Cathy Jamieson is: she will remember. Alex Neil was there too. We have all heard the same pleas. We all attended a meeting on 21 June, organised by the councillor for the area and queen of the campaigners, Katie Cochrane. We pledged to work together on the issue. This must be a first for the Parliament: in this debate we are all singing from the same hymn sheet. We have the support of Fenwick community council, East Ayrshire Council, Enterprise Ayrshire, the Ayrshire chamber of commerce, the Westminster MP and the numerous MSPs from various parties who represent constituencies in the area. I give the minister fair warning now that the requests will not stop. The A77 is a road that has to be tamed, and we will not give up. I know that she has finally responded to our request for a meeting, which is to take place on 4 October. I look forward to talking with her then. I read in newspaper reports that the minister has no money for roads, so I ask her, between now and our October meeting, to talk to the money men—the boys holding the purse strings—and get an advance on the chancellor's war chest. She should not save that up for votes at the general election, but spend the money now and save lives. As recently as this morning, I heard the minister comment that she was looking forward to this debate and that the Government had a record to be proud of. Not on this road. The improved signage and bright cats'-eyes are appreciated, even by me, when I have a late surgery or consultation. I intended to mention the accident statistics, but John Young, who is not in the chamber, stole my thunder. I ask for the safety aspects regarding the A77 to be considered. Money should be spent on it.", "EditedTextHTML": "I shall contain my remarks to points of safety. I do not know everyone's listening habits in the morning, but I always listen to the traffic reports by the whirly girlie or from the eye in the sky or by one of those leather-clad motorcyclists, with their on-the-spot assessment of traffic buildups on the major roads. It will come as no surprise—as I served notice on it in my first speech in the chamber—that the road that causes me and thousands of others the most concern is the A77, which is rightly known as the killer road.

When I was a girl living in East Kilbride, a trip to the seaside, on the Ayrshire coast, was a delightful anticipation. The journey over Fenwick moor and the A77, with its bumps and hollows, was as thrilling as any white-knuckle ride at a theme park. But that was 40 years ago. At 39 and holding, Kay Ullrich would certainly not remember anything that far back—or she would not admit to it. Forty years ago, there were not as many cars on the road and they did not travel as fast as they do nowadays. The A77 was a dangerous road then; it is positively lethal now.

Apart from filter lanes and a small stretch of dual carriageway with lighting at the Galston Road end, the road has changed little between Malletsheugh and Fenwick. That the road is busier now is beyond question.

I added to the volume of traffic when I stood as a candidate in Kilmarnock and Loudoun. The upgrading of the A77 was one of the main campaigning issues. Its importance far outweighed the concerns about education, taxes, jobs and the economy, important though those issues are. The message was loud and clear: \"Do something about that killer road.\"

I attended the meeting on 12 November at Fenwick, when Calum Macdonald was in charge of the strategic roads review and came to hear the strength of local feeling. The local community council was represented, as was East Ayrshire Council, and many others came to express their support for the upgrading of the road. Figures showing that the road was carrying motorway volume traffic were incontrovertible—all that on a road with two lanes in each direction, but no central barrier or reservation.

At peak traffic times, it takes only a millisecond's distraction for an accident of catastrophic proportions to happen. There does not have to be a driver at fault; an accident can be caused by someone coming in the opposite direction moving out by a fraction to pass a bus or lorry. At 60 mph in each direction—that is the speed limit—there are not many who walk away from a head-on collision unscathed. We are not all as fortunate as Jacques Villeneuve in having a wall of tyres piled high and five deep to hit.

What happens on the dreadful days when there is a serious accident on the A77? The air ambulance is frequently summoned to deal with the casualties, because medics cannot get through by the road. Traffic is diverted through the village of Fenwick, or perhaps through Kilmaurs and Stewarton, on roads that were never meant to carry such a volume of traffic. In winter, it is worse still, because the minor roads through those villages are not gritted.

Tens of thousands of people use the road every day to commute to work. Thousands of people in the area do as I do in the morning and listen for the traffic update, advising that there are no major problems on the A77: that members of their family

will have arrived at work safe and sound.

The experience is repeated at the end of the working day until there is that reassuring sound of a car door closing and the key in the door signalling that another journey on the killer road has been safely completed. If the Minister for Transport and the Environment doubted the strength of feeling about the road, I can assure her that the three candidates who stood in the Kilmarnock and Loudoun constituency all heard the same pleas and are now members of this Parliament. Margaret Jamieson is not in the chamber, but Cathy Jamieson is: she will remember. Alex Neil was there too. We have all heard the same pleas.

We all attended a meeting on 21 June, organised by the councillor for the area and queen of the campaigners, Katie Cochrane. We pledged to work together on the issue. This must be a first for the Parliament: in this debate we are all singing from the same hymn sheet. We have the support of Fenwick community council, East Ayrshire Council, Enterprise Ayrshire, the Ayrshire chamber of commerce, the Westminster MP and the numerous MSPs from various parties who represent constituencies in the area.

I give the minister fair warning now that the requests will not stop. The A77 is a road that has to be tamed, and we will not give up. I know that she has finally responded to our request for a meeting, which is to take place on 4 October. I look forward to talking with her then.

I read in newspaper reports that the minister has no money for roads, so I ask her, between now and our October meeting, to talk to the money men—the boys holding the purse strings—and get an advance on the chancellor's war chest. She should not save that up for votes at the general election, but spend the money now and save lives.

As recently as this morning, I heard the minister comment that she was looking forward to this debate and that the Government had a record to be proud of. Not on this road. The improved signage and bright cats'-eyes are appreciated, even by me, when I have a late surgery or consultation.

I intended to mention the accident statistics, but John Young, who is not in the chamber, stole my thunder. I ask for the safety aspects regarding the A77 to be considered. Money should be spent on it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C707721", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 371.0, "ContributionID": 707721, "EditedText": "Will Helen Eadie give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Helen Eadie give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1990E181P340C707725", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robson, Euan", "ID": 1990, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Roxburgh and Berwickshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Euan Robson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Euan Robson (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 380.0, "ContributionID": 707725, "EditedText": "When I first read the Conservative motion in the business bulletin, I thought that there was a mistake—that the date should have been 1 April instead of 15 September. The antipathy of the iron lady to the iron horse was legendary, and that is just one of the problems with the Conservative motion. In the Scottish Borders, 96 per cent of the population has access to one or more cars. That is not because it is an affluent area—the Borders has a history of low pay—but because of the problems of delivering bus services to a sparse population over a large rural area. Let me give some examples of a commuting day from the Borders to Edinburgh. The round trip from Eyemouth to Edinburgh takes three hours on the bus, from Kelso and Jedburgh it takes three and a half hours, and from Hawick it takes four and a half hours. It is impossible to make the journey to Edinburgh from Duns, the county town of Berwickshire. Travelling from east to west, there are also severe difficulties. A student constituent told me recently that she travels from Cockburnspath to Hawick for her studies, and the round trip of 100 miles involves her commuting for five hours a day on the bus. There is no railway line either. I welcome the feasibility study into the possibility of reopening the Waverley line. It should be viewed not as a local project, but as a significant national project for Scotland, providing a third rail route into England. We await with great interest the publication of that study in November or December. I urge the Executive not to rule out any options at any stage of the feasibility study, but to consider the economic benefits.", "EditedTextHTML": "When I first read the Conservative motion in the business bulletin, I thought that there was a mistake—that the date should have been 1 April instead of 15 September. The antipathy of the iron lady to the iron horse was legendary, and that is just one of the problems with the Conservative motion.

In the Scottish Borders, 96 per cent of the population has access to one or more cars. That is not because it is an affluent area—the Borders has a history of low pay—but because of the problems of delivering bus services to a sparse population over a large rural area.

Let me give some examples of a commuting day from the Borders to Edinburgh. The round trip from Eyemouth to Edinburgh takes three hours on the bus, from Kelso and Jedburgh it takes three and a half hours, and from Hawick it takes four and a half hours. It is impossible to make the journey to Edinburgh from Duns, the county town of Berwickshire.

Travelling from east to west, there are also severe difficulties. A student constituent told me recently that she travels from Cockburnspath to Hawick for her studies, and the round trip of 100 miles involves her commuting for five hours a day on the bus.

There is no railway line either. I welcome the feasibility study into the possibility of reopening the Waverley line. It should be viewed not as a local project, but as a significant national project for Scotland, providing a third rail route into England. We await with great interest the publication of that study in November or December. I urge the Executive not to rule out any options at any stage of the feasibility study, but to consider the economic benefits.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1990E181P340C707727", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robson, Euan", "ID": 1990, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Roxburgh and Berwickshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Euan Robson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Euan Robson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 384.0, "ContributionID": 707727, "EditedText": "There is a case for public investment in that railway line, but I am not sure how that investment is to be achieved. However, there is a major opportunity to open the line and relieve congestion in Edinburgh. If one considers the rates of commuting from the Borders to Edinburgh, it is evident that much could be achieved by the reintroduction of the railway line and by investing in public transport services. How should that be financed? I believe that the people of the Scottish Borders would accept tolls in and around Edinburgh if they had a viable alternative. The viable alternative must be an improved bus service or a railway line that takes people from the Borders into Edinburgh in reasonable time for a working day. There would be considerable advantages in looking at the proposed scheme as a way of reducing congestion in Edinburgh. The south of Scotland has been forgotten to a large extent because of the debate on a second Forth bridge. There was no suggestion that an alternative solution to Edinburgh's traffic problems might be a railway line from the Scottish Borders into Edinburgh. We await the feasibility study. For people in the south of Scotland, improvement in public transport is almost a prerequisite before we can accept road taxation, either in the form of tolls or through an increase in fuel duty.", "EditedTextHTML": "There is a case for public investment in that railway line, but I am not sure how that investment is to be achieved. However, there is a major opportunity to open the line and relieve congestion in Edinburgh. If one considers the rates of commuting from the Borders to Edinburgh, it is evident that much could be achieved by the reintroduction of the railway line and by investing in public transport services.

How should that be financed? I believe that the people of the Scottish Borders would accept tolls in and around Edinburgh if they had a viable alternative. The viable alternative must be an improved bus service or a railway line that takes people from the Borders into Edinburgh in reasonable time for a working day.

There would be considerable advantages in looking at the proposed scheme as a way of reducing congestion in Edinburgh. The south of Scotland has been forgotten to a large extent because of the debate on a second Forth bridge. There was no suggestion that an alternative solution to Edinburgh's traffic problems might be a railway line from the Scottish Borders into Edinburgh.

We await the feasibility study. For people in the south of Scotland, improvement in public transport is almost a prerequisite before we can accept road taxation, either in the form of tolls or through an increase in fuel duty.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2066E64P88C707734", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McGrigor, Jamie", "ID": 2066, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie McGrigor", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McGrigor: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 401.0, "ContributionID": 707734, "EditedText": "The obvious solution would be to upgrade rail systems to facilitate the carriage of timber, but that is unfeasible in many areas of the west. The option there is coastal shipping but—I hate to say this—if the coastal shipping industry is ignored for much longer there will be no ships left to turn to and that option will be gone. \"It is the aim of the Government to maintain the social and economic development of the Scottish Highlands and Islands communities through the support of sea transport services in the Highlands and Islands\". That statement was made in 1997. Where have all the ships gone? The gradual withdrawal of the tariff rebate subsidy has taken freight from coastal shipping and on to the roads. In 1995, the MV St Oran carried nearly 13,000 tonnes of timber, but so far in 1999 she has carried only 400 tonnes, which was cargo for the Argyll and Bute timber transport initiative. The withdrawal of the TRS from timber is immensely damaging to our road systems. The subsidised ferries encourage more haulage to ferry ports, often for just a short crossing. The large and heavily laden lorries increase congestion and can be the cause of major accidents. In contrast, in one recent trip by water, 415 tonnes of timber were carried from Ardrishaig in Argyll to the Mersey, saving 12,000 road miles.", "EditedTextHTML": "The obvious solution would be to upgrade rail systems to facilitate the carriage of timber, but that is unfeasible in many areas of the west. The option there is coastal shipping but—I hate to say this—if the coastal shipping industry is ignored for much longer there will be no ships left to turn to and that option will be gone.

\"It is the aim of the Government to maintain the social and economic development of the Scottish Highlands and Islands communities through the support of sea transport services in the Highlands and Islands\".

That statement was made in 1997. Where have all the ships gone? The gradual withdrawal of the tariff rebate subsidy has taken freight from coastal shipping and on to the roads. In 1995, the MV St Oran carried nearly 13,000 tonnes of timber, but so far in 1999 she has carried only 400 tonnes, which was cargo for the Argyll and Bute timber transport initiative. The withdrawal of the TRS from timber is immensely damaging to our road systems. The subsidised ferries encourage more haulage to ferry ports, often for just a short crossing. The large and heavily laden lorries increase congestion and can be the cause of major accidents. In contrast, in one recent trip by water, 415 tonnes of timber were carried from Ardrishaig in Argyll to the Mersey, saving 12,000 road miles.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2066E64P88C707736", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McGrigor, Jamie", "ID": 2066, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie McGrigor", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McGrigor: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 405.0, "ContributionID": 707736, "EditedText": "I am finishing.The tariff rebate subsidy was discredited because of some fraud, not because it was ineffective. The TRS used to be 40 per cent on timber, coal and building materials, but it is now only 20 per cent and applies only to coal cargoes. A sensible solution would be to reintroduce TRS for timber and other bulk cargoes, such as road salt, which is used by all the Highland councils. Even if the TRS were set at 40 per cent, the bill for the carriage of 200,000 tonnes of timber by sea would be only £1.5 million, and the number of road miles saved from heavy lorries would be in excess of 6 million. Given that Caledonian MacBrayne's subsidy has risen to £17 million, it seems only fair that some consideration be given to the highly adaptable coastal shipping industry before it disappears.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am finishing.

The tariff rebate subsidy was discredited because of some fraud, not because it was ineffective. The TRS used to be 40 per cent on timber, coal and building materials, but it is now only 20 per cent and applies only to coal cargoes. A sensible solution would be to reintroduce TRS for timber and other bulk cargoes, such as road salt, which is used by all the Highland councils. Even if the TRS were set at 40 per cent, the bill for the carriage of 200,000 tonnes of timber by sea would be only £1.5 million, and the number of road miles saved from heavy lorries would be in excess of 6 million. Given that Caledonian MacBrayne's subsidy has risen to £17 million, it seems only fair that some consideration be given to the highly adaptable coastal shipping industry before it disappears.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1986E53P206C707739", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeil, Duncan", "ID": 1986, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Greenock and Inverclyde" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan McNeil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McNeil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 412.0, "ContributionID": 707739, "EditedText": "No, we have had enough tosh from the Tories today, and I will have my say. There has not been a word of regret for low-paid workers who are forced into taxis to take them to work in the morning. The fuel escalator affects those temporary workers in my constituency who are forced to hire buses to take them to and from work. The price of the bus is fixed, so they have to watch their fares increase week after week—the number of passengers has declined because people have been laid off. The price of their transport has doubled.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, we have had enough tosh from the Tories today, and I will have my say.

There has not been a word of regret for low-paid workers who are forced into taxis to take them to work in the morning. The fuel escalator affects those temporary workers in my constituency who are forced to hire buses to take them to and from work. The price of the bus is fixed, so they have to watch their fares increase week after week—the number of passengers has declined because people have been laid off. The price of their transport has doubled.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1814E135P516C707742", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Fabiani, Linda", "ID": 1814, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Linda Fabiani", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Linda Fabiani (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 419.0, "ContributionID": 707742, "EditedText": "It has become plain to me this morning that, of the many transport issues in Scotland, none can be considered in isolation. Some of the problems— especially road congestion in urban environments—are common to many parts of the world. However, some of our problems are particular to us, especially those that relate to islands and our remote communities. Just over a year ago, the Government produced a white paper called \"Travel Choices for Scotland\", which outlined many of those issues. I think that most of us would agree with much of the analysis in that paper. The figures confirm that Scots travel further and more often now than they did even 10 years ago. The paper also catalogued the failure of the Conservative party's transport policy. Perhaps that is a misnomer; I should say the Conservative party's privatisation policy. As has been said, the amount of travel by every form of public transport has fallen.", "EditedTextHTML": "It has become plain to me this morning that, of the many transport issues in Scotland, none can be considered in isolation. Some of the problems— especially road congestion in urban environments—are common to many parts of the world. However, some of our problems are particular to us, especially those that relate to islands and our remote communities.

Just over a year ago, the Government produced a white paper called \"Travel Choices for Scotland\", which outlined many of those issues. I think that most of us would agree with much of the analysis in that paper. The figures confirm that Scots travel further and more often now than they did even 10 years ago. The paper also catalogued the failure of the Conservative party's transport policy. Perhaps that is a misnomer; I should say the Conservative party's privatisation policy. As has been said, the amount of travel by every form of public transport has fallen.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C707743", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 421.0, "ContributionID": 707743, "EditedText": "Is Linda Fabiani aware that passenger levels on all the rail franchises have risen steadily since 1995? All the franchises anticipate that that trend will continue and they anticipate substantial investment. That is the direct result of railway privatisation.", "EditedTextHTML": "Is Linda Fabiani aware that passenger levels on all the rail franchises have risen steadily since 1995? All the franchises anticipate that that trend will continue and they anticipate substantial investment. That is the direct result of railway privatisation.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1814E135P516C707746", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Fabiani, Linda", "ID": 1814, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Linda Fabiani", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Linda Fabiani: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 427.0, "ContributionID": 707746, "EditedText": "No, this is a winding-up speech. Andrew expressed concern for the environment, but I wonder how the people who live along the A71 will feel about their environment being wrecked. The minister may take some comfort from the local authority response to her proposals to tackle city centre congestion in Edinburgh, but she will take no comfort from the slating that the proposals received from her party colleagues in Glasgow. The SNP position on city centre congestion is clear. Congestion is the responsibility of local authorities; it is a separate issue from motorway and trunk road tolling. It should be clear to the minister that her proposals lack credibility. She has been found out because she is trying to get something for nothing.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, this is a winding-up speech. Andrew expressed concern for the environment, but I wonder how the people who live along the A71 will feel about their environment being wrecked. The minister may take some comfort from the local authority response to her proposals to tackle city centre congestion in Edinburgh, but she will take no comfort from the slating that the proposals received from her party colleagues in Glasgow.

The SNP position on city centre congestion is clear. Congestion is the responsibility of local authorities; it is a separate issue from motorway and trunk road tolling. It should be clear to the minister that her proposals lack credibility. She has been found out because she is trying to get something for nothing.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1908E166P251C707747", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Kerr, Andy", "ID": 1908, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Kilbride" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andy Kerr", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Kerr: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 429.0, "ContributionID": 707747, "EditedText": "Will Linda Fabiani give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Linda Fabiani give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1814E135P516C707750", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Fabiani, Linda", "ID": 1814, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Linda Fabiani", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Linda Fabiani: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 435.0, "ContributionID": 707750, "EditedText": "We call it a toll tax because it is a toll tax. At the moment, public transport is not an option for most people. Public transport must be good enough to make people want to get out of their cars; it must be decent, clean and affordable. Security issues must be addressed and park and ride must be secure. Women must feel that they can leave their car, use public transport and not feel threatened at night when it is dark. Helen Eadie and Malcolm Chisholm accused the SNP of not having an environmental agenda and remarked on the fact that we had linked up with the Greens in Europe. We have linked up with the Greens, but only on the recognition of our distinctive positions, including on the fuel escalator. That coalition is not a compromise on principle, unlike the Labour-Liberal Democrat coalition, which has ditched principle for political expediency. The minister's press launch for the consultation paper \"Tackling Congestion\" was a debacle. She was attacked for confirming that she did not propose to ring-fence the funds raised from road charging. The paper states: \"The proposed legislation will not, therefore, restrict expenditure entirely to transport-related matters.\" We had a memorable U-turn.", "EditedTextHTML": "We call it a toll tax because it is a toll tax.

At the moment, public transport is not an option for most people. Public transport must be good enough to make people want to get out of their

cars; it must be decent, clean and affordable. Security issues must be addressed and park and ride must be secure. Women must feel that they can leave their car, use public transport and not feel threatened at night when it is dark.

Helen Eadie and Malcolm Chisholm accused the SNP of not having an environmental agenda and remarked on the fact that we had linked up with the Greens in Europe. We have linked up with the Greens, but only on the recognition of our distinctive positions, including on the fuel escalator. That coalition is not a compromise on principle, unlike the Labour-Liberal Democrat coalition, which has ditched principle for political expediency.

The minister's press launch for the consultation paper \"Tackling Congestion\" was a debacle. She was attacked for confirming that she did not propose to ring-fence the funds raised from road charging. The paper states:

\"The proposed legislation will not, therefore, restrict expenditure entirely to transport-related matters.\"

We had a memorable U-turn.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1814E135P516C707754", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Fabiani, Linda", "ID": 1814, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Linda Fabiani", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Linda Fabiani: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 443.0, "ContributionID": 707754, "EditedText": "Scotland has been paying through the nose for years. The SNP does not believe that the answer to everything is to cut income tax and impose hidden taxes on consumers. I look forward to finding out from next year's bill whether the funds raised will be ring-fenced. The minister's excuse for her U-turn—she has allowed it to stand on record—was that she was badly advised by her civil servants. That excuse is an unfortunate precedent so early in the Executive's life.", "EditedTextHTML": "Scotland has been paying through the nose for years. The SNP does not believe that the answer to everything is to cut income tax and impose hidden taxes on consumers.

I look forward to finding out from next year's bill whether the funds raised will be ring-fenced. The minister's excuse for her U-turn—she has allowed it to stand on record—was that she was badly advised by her civil servants. That excuse is an unfortunate precedent so early in the Executive's life.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1814E135P516C707758", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Fabiani, Linda", "ID": 1814, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Linda Fabiani", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Linda Fabiani: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 451.0, "ContributionID": 707758, "EditedText": "I am sorry, Presiding Officer. Will the minister state here and now that it was not the civil servants who got it wrong, but the Executive?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry, Presiding Officer. Will the minister state here and now that it was not the civil servants who got it wrong, but the Executive?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1814E135P516C707760", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Fabiani, Linda", "ID": 1814, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Linda Fabiani", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Linda Fabiani: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 455.0, "ContributionID": 707760, "EditedText": "It would have been nice if Sarah Boyack had refuted that sooner. We have the opportunity in this Parliament to discuss, through the Transport and the Environment Committee, all aspects of Scottish transport and the environment. As the minister said, we have the opportunity for realistic and honest debate, which will result in the best solution for Scotland. The SNP would welcome that and, as a member of that committee, I look forward to discussing the responses to the Executive's consultation paper. I suspect that the Executive will find that everyone is out of step, except oor Sarah, so I hope that oor Sarah is willing to make some more U-turns. Andy told us that we have a listening Government in the UK and in Scotland. Along with many others, I await the proof of that bold statement in relation to transport and the environment.", "EditedTextHTML": "It would have been nice if Sarah Boyack had refuted that sooner.

We have the opportunity in this Parliament to discuss, through the Transport and the Environment Committee, all aspects of Scottish transport and the environment. As the minister said, we have the opportunity for realistic and honest debate, which will result in the best solution for Scotland. The SNP would welcome that and, as a member of that committee, I look forward to discussing the responses to the Executive's consultation paper. I suspect that the Executive will find that everyone is out of step, except oor Sarah, so I hope that oor Sarah is willing to make some more U-turns. Andy told us that we have a listening Government in the UK and in Scotland. Along with many others, I await the proof of that bold statement in relation to transport and the environment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1970E66P288C707770", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNulty, Des", "ID": 1970, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Clydebank and Milngavie" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Des McNulty", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Des McNulty (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 476.0, "ContributionID": 707770, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5921342+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1876E194P490C707772", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Marwick, Tricia", "ID": 1876, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tricia Marwick", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tricia Marwick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 480.0, "ContributionID": 707772, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "

Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5921342+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C707773", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 482.0, "ContributionID": 707773, "EditedText": "I will give way to Mr Macintosh first.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will give way to Mr Macintosh first.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5921342+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1876E194P490C707776", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Marwick, Tricia", "ID": 1876, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tricia Marwick", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tricia Marwick rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 488.0, "ContributionID": 707776, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5921342+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C707777", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 490.0, "ContributionID": 707777, "EditedText": "I have taken one intervention and will give way to the member in a moment. The new taxes that the Executive is selling are based on a lie. It is telling us that they are intended to reduce congestion and that there is a good environmental case to be made for them. That is not true. Even the SNP has seen through that as far as motorway tolls are concerned. The taxes have nothing to do with relieving congestion. The Government's transport adviser, Mr David Begg, said in an article in Scotland on Sunday of 27 June that \"the argument for motorway tolling is primarily a financial one: there is little or no money to fund the roads programme in Scotland.\" Unfortunately, the SNP has not seen through the Executive's arguments on tolls to enter our cities and taxes on workplace parking. I find it deeply depressing that today SNP members not only failed to press the Executive on those points, but seemed to want to return to a neanderthal nationalising policy—if their attacks on privatisation and deregulation of rail and buses are anything to go by. The contempt that they showed for what Mr Souter has achieved in building Stagecoach into one of Scotland's most successful companies will do nothing to increase their election campaign funds for next year.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have taken one intervention and will give way to the member in a moment.

The new taxes that the Executive is selling are based on a lie. It is telling us that they are intended to reduce congestion and that there is a good environmental case to be made for them. That is not true. Even the SNP has seen through that as far as motorway tolls are concerned. The taxes have nothing to do with relieving congestion. The Government's transport adviser, Mr David Begg, said in an article in Scotland on Sunday of 27 June that

\"the argument for motorway tolling is primarily a financial one: there is little or no money to fund the roads programme in Scotland.\"

Unfortunately, the SNP has not seen through the Executive's arguments on tolls to enter our cities and taxes on workplace parking. I find it deeply depressing that today SNP members not only failed to press the Executive on those points, but seemed to want to return to a neanderthal nationalising policy—if their attacks on privatisation and deregulation of rail and buses are anything to go by. The contempt that they showed for what Mr Souter has achieved in building Stagecoach into one of Scotland's most successful companies will do nothing to increase their election campaign funds for next year.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5921342+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2112E192P495C707783", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacAskill, Kenny", "ID": 2112, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenny MacAskill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr MacAskill: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 503.0, "ContributionID": 707783, "EditedText": "Yes.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5921342+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C707788", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26802, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 513.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 513.0, "ID": 26802, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ms Patricia Ferguson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 514.0, "ContributionID": 707788, "EditedText": "The next item of business is consideration of a business motion in the name of Tom McCabe, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, which sets out a revised business programme.", "EditedTextHTML": "The next item of business is consideration of a business motion in the name of Tom McCabe, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, which sets out a revised business programme.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5921342+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C707795", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Continental Tyres", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26803, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 526.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 526.0, "ID": 26803, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 527.0, "ContributionID": 707795, "EditedText": "As announced this morning, the first item of business is the emergency debate on motion S1M-158 in the name of Lord James Douglas-Hamilton on the subject of parity of treatment by Continental Tyres. There is also an amendment to that motion. Lord James, you have three minutes to move the motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "As announced this morning, the first item of business is the emergency debate on motion S1M-158 in the name of Lord James Douglas-Hamilton on the subject of parity of treatment by Continental Tyres. There is also an amendment to that motion. Lord James, you have three minutes to move the motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5921342+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1865E219P509C707816", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26804, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 566.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26805, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "QuestionHeading": "Scottish Joint Negotiating Committee", "QuestionHeadingID": 26807, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 575.0, "DisplayOrder": 575.0, "ID": 26807, "ParentID": 26805 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "White, Sandra", "ID": 1865, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sandra White", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms White: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 580.0, "ContributionID": 707816, "EditedText": "I fully understand about the legislation, but does the minister agree that abolition of the SJNC, which the SNP opposes, will not solve the current crisis in the negotiations over teachers' pay and conditions? It would take several months to get the necessary legislation through Parliament, as the minister said, but in the meantime there would be chaos in our schools. Is the minister happy to preside over that, or will he instead outline to the Parliament a more constructive approach to settling the dispute, such as making more money available to the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities in order to allow COSLA to return to the negotiating table?", "EditedTextHTML": "I fully understand about the legislation, but does the minister agree that abolition of the SJNC, which the SNP opposes, will not solve the current crisis in the negotiations over teachers' pay and conditions? It would take several months to get the necessary legislation through Parliament, as the minister said, but in the meantime there would be chaos in our schools. Is the minister happy to preside over that, or will he instead outline to the Parliament a more constructive approach to settling the dispute, such as making more money available to the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities in order to allow COSLA to return to the negotiating table?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5921342+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C707817", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26804, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 566.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26805, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "QuestionHeading": "Scottish Joint Negotiating Committee", "QuestionHeadingID": 26807, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 575.0, "DisplayOrder": 575.0, "ID": 26807, "ParentID": 26805 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Galbraith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 582.0, "ContributionID": 707817, "EditedText": "I hear the points that the lady raises. I made it clear from the earliest days that I wished those negotiations to deliver a settlement. If that does not happen, the future of the SJNC will be in some doubt. That position remains.", "EditedTextHTML": "I hear the points that the lady raises. I made it clear from the earliest days that I wished those negotiations to deliver a settlement. If that does not happen, the future of the SJNC will be in some doubt. That position remains.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5921342+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1826E199P351C707802", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Continental Tyres", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26803, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 526.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 526.0, "ID": 26803, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Smith, Margaret", "ID": 1826, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Smith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Smith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 542.0, "ContributionID": 707802, "EditedText": "The Executive and this Parliament should put pressure on Continental to pay that price.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Executive and this Parliament should put pressure on Continental to pay that price.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5921342+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2118E157P454C707808", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Continental Tyres", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26803, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 526.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 526.0, "ID": 26803, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Quinan, Mr Lloyd", "ID": 2118, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lloyd Quinan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Lloyd Quinan (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 559.0, "ContributionID": 707808, "EditedText": "I welcome Henry McLeish's amendment. I also welcome the opportunity to have cross-party agreement to support the workers at Continental. The Continental situation reminds me of what happened at the Caterpillar plant in Tannochside, Lanarkshire in 1987. Unfortunately, the Government of the day did not fight for the rights of the workers and this Parliament was not in existence to do so. In light of the bad press that the Parliament has had during the past few weeks, it is marvellous that we are able to show together that we are prepared to fight for industrial workers in Scotland. That alone makes the Parliament worth while. A warning about Continental and its behaviour across the world was given on Monday to the Trades Union Congress. The American Federation of Labor and Congress of Industrial Organizations representative warned the congress that Continental, in all cases, attempts to get away with the minimum payment. I will remind members of what the Irish workers were able to achieve with the support of their Government. Let us hope that pressure from here will have the same effect on Continental. The Irish workers got five weeks' pay per year of service, plus their statutory entitlement. The Irish statutory entitlement is half a week per year, but with the strength of the labour courts the Irish workers were able to achieve more. On top of that, a further lump sum of a 3 per cent increase over a three-year period was paid. We should be looking for nothing less than that. I support the amendment.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome Henry McLeish's amendment. I also welcome the opportunity to have cross-party agreement to support the workers at Continental.

The Continental situation reminds me of what happened at the Caterpillar plant in Tannochside, Lanarkshire in 1987. Unfortunately, the Government of the day did not fight for the rights of the workers and this Parliament was not in existence to do so. In light of the bad press that the Parliament has had during the past few weeks, it is marvellous that we are able to show together that we are prepared to fight for industrial workers in Scotland. That alone makes the Parliament worth while.

A warning about Continental and its behaviour across the world was given on Monday to the Trades Union Congress. The American Federation of Labor and Congress of Industrial Organizations representative warned the congress that Continental, in all cases, attempts to get away with the minimum payment.

I will remind members of what the Irish workers were able to achieve with the support of their Government. Let us hope that pressure from here will have the same effect on Continental. The Irish workers got five weeks' pay per year of service, plus their statutory entitlement. The Irish statutory entitlement is half a week per year, but with the strength of the labour courts the Irish workers were able to achieve more. On top of that, a further lump sum of a 3 per cent increase over a three-year period was paid. We should be looking for nothing less than that. I support the amendment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5921342+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C707813", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26804, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 566.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26805, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "QuestionHeading": "Stracathro Hospital", "QuestionHeadingID": 26806, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 568.0, "DisplayOrder": 568.0, "ID": 26806, "ParentID": 26805 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 573.0, "ContributionID": 707813, "EditedText": "I am aware of local concern and of the specific issues regarding local decisions that Mr Welsh raises. I am concerned that there is a great deal of confusion around the issue of Stracathro hospital and that prolonged speculation is causing concern among staff and patients in the Angus area. I have met Mr Welsh and Mr Swinney to discuss the issue. I stress that I am as keen as anyone to ensure that that uncertainty does not continue. I have asked health department officials to discuss with Tayside Health Board its plans for acute services locally and to make plain the need for a clear timetable and proper public consultation throughout that process.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am aware of local concern and of the specific issues regarding local decisions that Mr Welsh raises. I am concerned that there is a great deal of confusion around the issue of Stracathro hospital and that prolonged speculation is causing concern among staff and patients in the Angus area. I have met Mr Welsh and Mr Swinney to discuss the issue. I stress that I am as keen as anyone to ensure that that uncertainty does not continue. I have asked health department officials to discuss with Tayside Health Board its plans for acute services locally and to make plain the need for a clear timetable and proper public consultation throughout that process.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5921342+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C707810", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Continental Tyres", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26803, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 526.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 526.0, "ID": 26803, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 564.0, "ContributionID": 707810, "EditedText": "I am afraid that under standing orders, the decision on the motion and the amendment will be made at decision time at 5 o'clock.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am afraid that under standing orders, the decision on the motion and the amendment will be made at decision time at 5 o'clock.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5921342+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1906E278P355C707811", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26804, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 566.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26805, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "QuestionHeading": "Stracathro Hospital", "QuestionHeadingID": 26806, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 568.0, "DisplayOrder": 568.0, "ID": 26806, "ParentID": 26805 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Welsh, Andrew", "ID": 1906, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Angus" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Welsh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "1. Mr Andrew Welsh (Angus) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 569.0, "ContributionID": 707811, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive which services and staff posts have been withdrawn from or reduced in Stracathro hospital over the past five years and what steps are being taken to ensure the future of Stracathro hospital and the services it provides. (S1O-297) The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): Details of individual staff changes and their impact on services are available only from Tayside University Hospitals NHS Trust, which employs the staff concerned. I have asked the trust to write directly to Mr Welsh with those details. As Mr Welsh will be aware, Tayside Health Board is currently conducting a review of acute services across Tayside, which is due to be completed later this year. The services provided at Stracathro hospital are part of that review.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive which services and staff posts have been withdrawn from or reduced in Stracathro hospital over the past five years and what steps are being taken to ensure the future of Stracathro hospital and the services it provides. (S1O-297) The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): Details of individual staff changes and their impact on services are available only from Tayside University Hospitals NHS Trust, which employs the staff concerned. I have asked the trust to write directly to Mr Welsh with those details. As Mr Welsh will be aware, Tayside Health Board is currently conducting a review of acute services across Tayside, which is due to be completed later this year. The services provided at Stracathro hospital are part of that review.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5921342+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1906E278P355C707812", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26804, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 566.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26805, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "QuestionHeading": "Stracathro Hospital", "QuestionHeadingID": 26806, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 568.0, "DisplayOrder": 568.0, "ID": 26806, "ParentID": 26805 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Welsh, Andrew", "ID": 1906, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Angus" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Welsh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Welsh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 571.0, "ContributionID": 707812, "EditedText": "Is the minister aware of the enormous public concern over the future of Stracathro hospital? Can she explain why mixed orthopaedic and general surgical wards have been created against professional advice and why administrative delays have prevented the return of a consultant at a time of staff shortages? Why are wards threatened with closure, pre-empting the acute services review? Will she take a personal interest in this situation to ensure that information is made available to the public and that a fair and just solution is introduced to safeguard Stracathro hospital?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is the minister aware of the enormous public concern over the future of Stracathro hospital? Can she explain why mixed orthopaedic and general surgical wards have been created against professional advice and why administrative delays have prevented the return of a consultant at a time of staff shortages? Why are wards threatened with closure, pre-empting the acute services review? Will she take a personal interest in this situation to ensure that information is made available to the public and that a fair and just solution is introduced to safeguard Stracathro hospital?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5921342+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2207E94P262C707823", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26804, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 566.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26805, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "QuestionHeading": "Student Awards Agency", "QuestionHeadingID": 26809, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 593.0, "DisplayOrder": 593.0, "ID": 26809, "ParentID": 26805 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Barrie, Scott", "ID": 2207, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dunfermline West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Scott Barrie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Scott Barrie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 596.0, "ContributionID": 707823, "EditedText": "Does the minister agree that, in circumstances where an error has been made through no fault of the recipient, maximum discretion should be exercised by the awards agency in trying to recover the excess grant?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the minister agree that, in circumstances where an error has been made through no fault of the recipient, maximum discretion should be exercised by the awards agency in trying to recover the excess grant?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5921342+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2154E194P299C707824", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26804, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 566.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26805, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "QuestionHeading": "Student Awards Agency", "QuestionHeadingID": 26809, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 593.0, "DisplayOrder": 593.0, "ID": 26809, "ParentID": 26805 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stephen, Nicol", "ID": 2154, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Nicol Stephen", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicol Stephen: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 598.0, "ContributionID": 707824, "EditedText": "It is important that there should be flexibility and that individual circumstances should be considered, and that approach is taken. For example, where repayment of a debt would have an adverse effect on a student's studies, the flexibility exists for the student to defer repayment until after graduation.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is important that there should be flexibility and that individual circumstances should be considered, and that approach is taken. For example, where repayment of a debt would have an adverse effect on a student's studies, the flexibility exists for the student to defer repayment until after graduation.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5921342+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C707830", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26804, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 566.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26805, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "QuestionHeading": "Scottish University for Industry", "QuestionHeadingID": 26811, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 609.0, "DisplayOrder": 609.0, "ID": 26811, "ParentID": 26805 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning (Henry McLeish): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 612.0, "ContributionID": 707830, "EditedText": "Scottish UfI Ltd will be established next month. The chief executive and directors will be appointed by the end of the year, and the Scottish UfI will be launched in autumn 2000, as planned.", "EditedTextHTML": "Scottish UfI Ltd will be established next month. The chief executive and directors will be appointed by the end of the year, and the Scottish UfI will be launched in autumn 2000, as planned.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5921342+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C707841", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26804, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 566.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26805, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "QuestionHeading": "Inverness College", "QuestionHeadingID": 26813, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 631.0, "DisplayOrder": 631.0, "ID": 26813, "ParentID": 26805 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 636.0, "ContributionID": 707841, "EditedText": "The college must obviously address the serious financial issues that it faces. It is working with the funding council to ensure that that is done, through consolidation of finances in the short term, to ensure that the £4 million deficit will not be repeated. It is up to the management of the college to think through all that that involves, and I sincerely hope that the management will take a positive view to ensure that the coverage of courses, access to courses and the quality of the further education that the college provides will not be undermined. It is important to emphasise that extra money has been given to the Scottish Further Education Funding Council to ensure that we consolidate college finances and improve the quality of management, a review of which is taking place. I hope that, with good will, those outstanding issues and difficulties can be resolved and that the college can move forward more positively.", "EditedTextHTML": "The college must obviously address the serious financial issues that it faces. It is working with the funding council to ensure that that is done, through consolidation of finances in the short term, to ensure that the £4 million deficit will not be repeated.

It is up to the management of the college to think through all that that involves, and I sincerely hope that the management will take a positive view to ensure that the coverage of courses, access to courses and the quality of the further education that the college provides will not be undermined.

It is important to emphasise that extra money has been given to the Scottish Further Education Funding Council to ensure that we consolidate college finances and improve the quality of management, a review of which is taking place.

I hope that, with good will, those outstanding issues and difficulties can be resolved and that the college can move forward more positively.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5921342+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2085E206P337C707843", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26804, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 566.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26805, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "QuestionHeading": "Deer Farming", "QuestionHeadingID": 26814, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 638.0, "DisplayOrder": 638.0, "ID": 26814, "ParentID": 26805 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Munro, John Farquhar", "ID": 2085, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ross, Skye and Inverness West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Farquhar Munro", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Munro: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 641.0, "ContributionID": 707843, "EditedText": "I thank the minister for that response. Will the minister assure members that his department will conduct a thorough review of the integrated administration and control system, of which the hill livestock compensatory allowances form a part? I ask this especially regarding the penalties imposed by over-zealous Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food inspectors.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the minister for that response. Will the minister assure members that his department will conduct a thorough review of the integrated administration and control system, of which the hill livestock compensatory allowances form a part? I ask this especially regarding the penalties imposed by over-zealous Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food inspectors.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5921342+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C707845", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26804, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 566.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26805, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "QuestionHeading": "Deer Farming", "QuestionHeadingID": 26814, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 638.0, "DisplayOrder": 638.0, "ID": 26814, "ParentID": 26805 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 645.0, "ContributionID": 707845, "EditedText": "No, I do not think that I will. You cannot be heard if you turn round. Laughter. Some members may think that that is an important point.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I do not think that I will. You cannot be heard if you turn round. [Laughter.] Some members may think that that is an important point.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5921342+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1950E155P451C707857", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26804, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 566.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26805, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "QuestionHeading": "Education Service", "QuestionHeadingID": 26818, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 672.0, "DisplayOrder": 672.0, "ID": 26818, "ParentID": 26805 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Campbell, Colin", "ID": 1950, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Colin Campbell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "15. Colin Campbell (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 673.0, "ContributionID": 707857, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether all pupils in Scotland with records of needs are receiving appropriate educational provision. (S1O-322)", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether all pupils in Scotland with records of needs are receiving appropriate educational provision. (S1O-322)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5921342+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2167E79P155C707860", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26804, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 566.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26805, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "QuestionHeading": "Education Service", "QuestionHeadingID": 26818, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 672.0, "DisplayOrder": 672.0, "ID": 26818, "ParentID": 26805 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Peacock, Peter", "ID": 2167, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Peter Peacock", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Peter Peacock: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 679.0, "ContributionID": 707860, "EditedText": "I have never before been accused of not answering a question: that is a novelty. We are on a journey of trying constantly to improve provision for children with special educational needs. We have started that journey, but it is not yet complete. There is a lot more to be done. We are providing substantial additional resources this year, including an advice line for parents with children who have special educational needs. We have just established a forum to examine a vehicle for continuing dialogue on policy development for children with special educational needs. Although we will always look to improve provision, I think that we have made a positive start on that journey.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have never before been accused of not answering a question: that is a novelty.

We are on a journey of trying constantly to improve provision for children with special educational needs. We have started that journey, but it is not yet complete. There is a lot more to be done. We are providing substantial additional resources this year, including an advice line for parents with children who have special educational needs. We have just established a forum to examine a vehicle for continuing dialogue on policy development for children with special educational needs. Although we will always look to improve provision, I think that we have made a positive start on that journey.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6077605+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C707864", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26804, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 566.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26805, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "QuestionHeading": "St Mary's Episcopal Primary School, Dunblane", "QuestionHeadingID": 26819, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 681.0, "DisplayOrder": 681.0, "ID": 26819, "ParentID": 26805 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Monteith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 688.0, "ContributionID": 707864, "EditedText": "The minister will have noticed that I said excellent education, not just any old education, that is £900 cheaper. The bill talks about improving—", "EditedTextHTML": "The minister will have noticed that I said excellent education, not just any old education, that is £900 cheaper. The bill talks about improving—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6077605+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2100E64P254C707872", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26804, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 566.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26805, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "QuestionHeading": "Fisheries", "QuestionHeadingID": 26820, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 696.0, "DisplayOrder": 696.0, "ID": 26820, "ParentID": 26805 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Home Robertson, John", "ID": 2100, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Lothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "John Home Robertson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Home Robertson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 705.0, "ContributionID": 707872, "EditedText": "We will act on behalf of the United Kingdom, which has 10 votes in the European Council. As Mr Lochhead has already acknowledged, Scotland has the lion's share of fishing interests and we intend to use our influence appropriately and effectively.", "EditedTextHTML": "We will act on behalf of the United Kingdom, which has 10 votes in the European Council. As Mr Lochhead has already acknowledged, Scotland has the lion's share of fishing interests and we intend to use our influence appropriately and effectively.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1781E188P474C707874", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26804, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 566.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26805, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "QuestionHeading": "Stracathro Hospital", "QuestionHeadingID": 26821, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 707.0, "DisplayOrder": 707.0, "ID": 26821, "ParentID": 26805 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McGugan, Irene", "ID": 1781, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Irene McGugan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Irene McGugan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 710.0, "ContributionID": 707874, "EditedText": "Will the minister undertake, as a matter of urgency, to investigate and facilitate the reinstatement to full-time use of the mobile magnetic resonance imaging scanner that was removed from Stracathro in March?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister undertake, as a matter of urgency, to investigate and facilitate the reinstatement to full-time use of the mobile magnetic resonance imaging scanner that was removed from Stracathro in March?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C707887", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26804, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 566.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26805, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "QuestionHeading": "Health Care", "QuestionHeadingID": 26824, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 734.0, "DisplayOrder": 734.0, "ID": 26824, "ParentID": 26805 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 739.0, "ContributionID": 707887, "EditedText": "I am aware of the high rate of heart disease throughout Scotland, which is why I am determined to take action to tackle it along with our other two big killer diseases, strokes and cancer. As I said fairly fully in the recent debate on public health, a number of actions should be taken, including ensuring that people are informed about how diet and lifestyle changes can make a difference. The action that we are taking on smoking will make a difference. We will continue to work with the Health Education Board Scotland, local health boards and schools to raise young people's awareness of what a healthy lifestyle is.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am aware of the high rate of heart disease throughout Scotland, which is why I am determined to take action to tackle it along with our other two big killer diseases, strokes and cancer. As I said fairly fully in the recent debate on public health, a number of actions should be taken, including ensuring that people are informed about how diet and lifestyle changes can make a difference. The action that we are taking on smoking will make a difference. We will continue to work with the Health Education Board Scotland, local health boards and schools to raise young people's awareness of what a healthy lifestyle is.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C707893", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26826, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 748.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26827, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 749.0, "QuestionHeading": "Higher Education", "QuestionHeadingID": 26828, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 750.0, "DisplayOrder": 750.0, "ID": 26828, "ParentID": 26827 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 755.0, "ContributionID": 707893, "EditedText": "The position is simply that this Parliament is master at the end of the day, but that not every motion that is passed by this Parliament is binding upon the Executive. If the Executive did not respond in a way that Parliament found satisfactory, a whole range of democratic options is open to Parliament. I leave to Mr Salmond the selection that he might want to make if the circumstance occurred. We are all, if we are sensible, waiting for the response from Andrew Cubie and his colleagues with regard to tuition fees. We will all want to look at what is a complex matter, and if Mr Salmond has been following, as I have, the evidence that has been submitted by various organisations, he will see that the issue requires not a snatched or prejudiced decision, but a long, careful and proper look at the evidence. That is what the Executive, and I hope this Parliament, will do.", "EditedTextHTML": "The position is simply that this Parliament is master at the end of the day, but that not every motion that is passed by this Parliament is binding upon the Executive. If the Executive did not respond in a way that Parliament found satisfactory, a whole range of democratic options is open to Parliament. I leave to Mr Salmond the selection that he might want to make if the circumstance occurred.

We are all, if we are sensible, waiting for the response from Andrew Cubie and his colleagues with regard to tuition fees. We will all want to look at what is a complex matter, and if Mr Salmond has been following, as I have, the evidence that has been submitted by various organisations, he will see that the issue requires not a snatched or prejudiced decision, but a long, careful and proper look at the evidence. That is what the Executive, and I hope this Parliament, will do.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C707894", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26826, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 748.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26827, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 749.0, "QuestionHeading": "Higher Education", "QuestionHeadingID": 26828, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 750.0, "DisplayOrder": 750.0, "ID": 26828, "ParentID": 26827 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 757.0, "ContributionID": 707894, "EditedText": "On the evidence that has been submitted by various organisations, the Conservative party, the Liberal Democrat party and the Scottish National party have all submitted evidence against tuition fees. There has been no submission of evidence by the Labour party in Scotland. Can the First Minister remind this Parliament when the Labour party in Scotland passed a motion in favour of tuition fees for higher education?", "EditedTextHTML": "On the evidence that has been submitted by various organisations, the Conservative party, the Liberal Democrat party and the Scottish National party have all submitted evidence against tuition fees. There has been no submission of evidence by the Labour party in Scotland. Can the First Minister remind this Parliament when the Labour party in Scotland passed a motion in favour of tuition fees for higher education?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C707897", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26826, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 748.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26827, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 749.0, "QuestionHeading": "Higher Education", "QuestionHeadingID": 26828, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 750.0, "DisplayOrder": 750.0, "ID": 26828, "ParentID": 26827 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 763.0, "ContributionID": 707897, "EditedText": "I have said this consistently, and I hope that no one will criticise me for repeating it. I believe that it is in everyone's interest to consider the evidence that is produced, to measure their approach against that evidence and to come to a conclusion that they believe is right. I have always understood that the Liberal Democrat party had a position and that it would submit evidence in support of that. When the Cubie report comes out and the evidence is there, we will see whether that ameliorates things or changes views. If Alex Salmond is telling me that his position is that he has taken up a stance, and in the face of all the evidence—whatever it might suggest—he will never alter that stance, he is taking an unwise position. That is a matter entirely for him. We will examine the evidence and consult our friends, and the Executive will decide on the best way forward in the interest of higher education in Scotland. If we had a constructive debate rather than scare stories, that would help the cause considerably.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have said this consistently, and I hope that no one will criticise me for repeating it. I believe that it is in everyone's interest to consider the evidence that is produced, to measure their approach against that evidence and to come to a conclusion that they believe is right. I have always understood that the Liberal Democrat party had a position and that it would submit evidence in support of that. When the Cubie report comes out and the evidence is there, we will see whether that ameliorates things or changes views.

If Alex Salmond is telling me that his position is that he has taken up a stance, and in the face of all the evidence—whatever it might suggest—he

will never alter that stance, he is taking an unwise position. That is a matter entirely for him. We will examine the evidence and consult our friends, and the Executive will decide on the best way forward in the interest of higher education in Scotland. If we had a constructive debate rather than scare stories, that would help the cause considerably.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C707898", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26826, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 748.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26827, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 749.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26829, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 765.0, "DisplayOrder": 765.0, "ID": 26829, "ParentID": 26827 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "2. David McLetchie (Lothians) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 766.0, "ContributionID": 707898, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive how many times the First Minister has met with the Secretary of State for Scotland since 1 July 1999 to discuss matters relating to the governance of Scotland and whether further regular meetings between them have been scheduled. (S1O-319) The First Minister (Donald Dewar): Members will not be surprised to know that I meet John Reid frequently and in a number of different capacities. We have regular meetings on the governance of Scotland, which I have every expectation will continue to mutual benefit.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive how many times the First Minister has met with the Secretary of State for Scotland since 1 July 1999 to discuss matters relating to the governance of Scotland and whether further regular meetings between them have been scheduled. (S1O-319) The First Minister (Donald Dewar): Members will not be surprised to know that I meet John Reid frequently and in a number of different capacities. We have regular meetings on the governance of Scotland, which I have every expectation will continue to mutual benefit.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C707899", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26826, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 748.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26827, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 749.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26829, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 765.0, "DisplayOrder": 765.0, "ID": 26829, "ParentID": 26827 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 768.0, "ContributionID": 707899, "EditedText": "Will the First Minister tell us, given that it would have to be introduced on a United Kingdom basis, whether his discussions with the secretary of state have covered the so- called graduate tax? Given the reported enthusiasm with which Mr Wallace has taken up that idea, it seems strange that he has apparently been excluded from discussions on the topic. The next time the First Minister meets the secretary of state to discuss higher education, will he bring the Deputy First Minister in from the cold?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the First Minister tell us, given that it would have to be introduced on a United Kingdom basis, whether his discussions with the secretary of state have covered the so- called graduate tax? Given the reported enthusiasm with which Mr Wallace has taken up that idea, it seems strange that he has apparently been excluded from discussions on the topic. The next time the First Minister meets the secretary of state to discuss higher education, will he bring the Deputy First Minister in from the cold?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C707901", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26826, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 748.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26827, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 749.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26829, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 765.0, "DisplayOrder": 765.0, "ID": 26829, "ParentID": 26827 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 772.0, "ContributionID": 707901, "EditedText": "I am sure that they will. It is interesting that there are no discussions on the graduate tax. Perhaps the First Minister should have told Mr Wallace before he went enthusiastically to the newspapers indicating that it was an interesting idea, which was worth considering. Instead of this kite-flying, is not the simplest solution for the Scottish Executive to accept the settled will of the overwhelming majority of the people of Scotland to abolish tuition fees immediately after 6 May? The Executive should not start tinkering around with graduate taxes, which owes more to desperation to keep the coalition together and enthusiasm for imposing new taxes on people in Scotland, than to dealing with higher education funding.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sure that they will. It is interesting that there are no discussions on the graduate tax. Perhaps the First Minister should have told Mr Wallace before he went enthusiastically to the newspapers indicating that it was an interesting idea, which was worth considering.

Instead of this kite-flying, is not the simplest solution for the Scottish Executive to accept the settled will of the overwhelming majority of the people of Scotland to abolish tuition fees immediately after 6 May? The Executive should not start tinkering around with graduate taxes, which owes more to desperation to keep the coalition together and enthusiasm for imposing new taxes on people in Scotland, than to dealing with higher education funding.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C707902", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26826, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 748.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26827, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 749.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26829, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 765.0, "DisplayOrder": 765.0, "ID": 26829, "ParentID": 26827 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 774.0, "ContributionID": 707902, "EditedText": "As an example of a constructive contribution, that ranks low. Having just been told that the graduate tax was not a subject that we were raising, Mr McLetchie asks his supplementary on the basis that it is a matter that we are raising. If he will not listen to a word that I say, I will have to stop speaking to him. I am prepared to make him an offer, which is meant to be helpful. He has an idea that this is a simple matter with simple solutions. I am prepared to arrange a meeting for him with a representative group of people in higher education. I will even buy him a poke of chips—a small and simple meal. He can sit down and discuss the future of higher education funding. He might not change his mind, but at least he will not come here and tell us that the matter is simple of solution and does not require anxious consideration and debate.", "EditedTextHTML": "As an example of a constructive contribution, that ranks low. Having just been told that the graduate tax was not a subject that we were raising, Mr McLetchie asks his supplementary on the basis that it is a matter that we are raising. If he will not listen to a word that I say, I will have to stop speaking to him. I am prepared to make him an offer, which is meant to be helpful. He has an idea that this is a simple matter with simple solutions. I am prepared to arrange a meeting for him with a representative group of people in higher education. I will even buy him a poke of chips—a small and simple meal. He can sit down and discuss the future of higher education funding. He might not change his mind, but at least he will not come here and tell us that the matter is simple of solution and does not require anxious consideration and debate.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C707910", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26826, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 748.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26827, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 749.0, "QuestionHeading": "Objective 2 Funding", "QuestionHeadingID": 26830, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 784.0, "DisplayOrder": 784.0, "ID": 26830, "ParentID": 26827 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 791.0, "ContributionID": 707910, "EditedText": "There are communities in West Lothian, as in other parts of Scotland, that would benefit from European funding and are in need of Government and European support. It would be wrong at this stage to speculate on which communities might be on the final map. It is important that we get right the final proposals that we put to the European Commission. We are working closely with UK ministers to ensure that that happens. When we submit the proposals, I am sure that we will have achieved a good deal for Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "There are communities in West Lothian, as in other parts of Scotland, that would benefit from European funding and are in need of Government and European support. It would be wrong at this stage to speculate on which communities might be on the final map. It is important that we get right the final proposals that we put to the European Commission. We are working closely with UK ministers to ensure that that happens. When we submit the proposals, I am sure that we will have achieved a good deal for Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C707911", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26826, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 748.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26827, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 749.0, "QuestionHeading": "Objective 2 Funding", "QuestionHeadingID": 26830, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 784.0, "DisplayOrder": 784.0, "ID": 26830, "ParentID": 26827 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Keith Raffan (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 793.0, "ContributionID": 707911, "EditedText": "In view of the very high unemployment in Clackmannanshire and the representations that were made in last week's debate—which, unfortunately, I was unable to attend because I was in hospital—will the minister press for Clackmannanshire to be included in the redrawing of the objective 2 status map, so that it becomes eligible for those European funds?", "EditedTextHTML": "In view of the very high unemployment in Clackmannanshire and the representations that were made in last week's debate—which, unfortunately, I was unable to attend because I was in hospital—will the minister press for Clackmannanshire to be included in the redrawing of the objective 2 status map, so that it becomes eligible for those European funds?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C707916", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Water Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26831, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 803.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 803.0, "ID": 26831, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 804.0, "ContributionID": 707916, "EditedText": "The next item of business is a statement by Sarah Boyack on the water industry. The minister will take questions at the end of the statement, so there should be no interventions.", "EditedTextHTML": "The next item of business is a statement by Sarah Boyack on the water industry. The minister will take questions at the end of the statement, so there should be no interventions.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C707918", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Water Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26831, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 803.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 803.0, "ID": 26831, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ms Patricia Ferguson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 809.0, "ContributionID": 707918, "EditedText": "Thank you. As the minister said, she will take questions from members. Members who want to speak should press their request to speak buttons. I remind members that questions should be in the form of a question and should be brief.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you. As the minister said, she will take questions from members. Members who want to speak should press their request to speak buttons. I remind members that questions should be in the form of a question and should be brief.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C707926", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Water Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26831, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 803.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 803.0, "ID": 26831, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 825.0, "ContributionID": 707926, "EditedText": "Mr McNulty, will you come to your question please?", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr McNulty, will you come to your question please?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C707930", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Water Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26831, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 803.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 803.0, "ID": 26831, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 833.0, "ContributionID": 707930, "EditedText": "I remind members to ask questions and not to make statements. The more that people can observe that rule, the more questions they will be able to ask.", "EditedTextHTML": "I remind members to ask questions and not to make statements. The more that people can observe that rule, the more questions they will be able to ask.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1990E181P340C707932", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Water Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26831, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 803.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 803.0, "ID": 26831, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robson, Euan", "ID": 1990, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Roxburgh and Berwickshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Euan Robson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Euan Robson (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 837.0, "ContributionID": 707932, "EditedText": "Is the minister aware that the model of consumer representation that is in the statement is not widely accepted? In the energy industry, for example, the need for the consumer body to be independent of the regulator is well recognised. What informed and industry-oriented body will criticise the water industry commissioner if he acts against the interest of consumers?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is the minister aware that the model of consumer representation that is in the statement is not widely accepted? In the energy industry, for example, the need for the consumer body to be independent of the regulator is well recognised. What informed and industry-oriented body will criticise the water industry commissioner if he acts against the interest of consumers?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C707948", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26832, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 869.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 869.0, "ID": 26832, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ms Patricia Ferguson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 870.0, "ContributionID": 707948, "EditedText": "We move on to the debate on motion S1M-154, in the name of Ms Wendy Alexander, on homelessness. There is also an amendment to the motion. Members who wish to speak in this debate may now press their request to speak buttons.", "EditedTextHTML": "We move on to the debate on motion S1M-154, in the name of Ms Wendy Alexander, on homelessness. There is also an amendment to the motion. Members who wish to speak in this debate may now press their request to speak buttons.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C707951", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26832, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 869.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 869.0, "ID": 26832, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 877.0, "ContributionID": 707951, "EditedText": "That exact point was the basis for the report, undertaken as part of the rough sleepers initiative, that hit my desk 10 days ago. Three quarters of the rough sleepers in Glasgow had used drugs in the last month; 60 per cent had mental health problems; few had medical support. Sixty per cent of rough sleepers are regular hostel dwellers and 65 per cent now have at least one failed tenancy behind them. Almost half of those who are sleeping rough in the streets of Glasgow have been in a hostel, but 70 per cent of them have been evicted and almost half of them have had some sort of accommodation ban for violent behaviour, drug or alcohol abuse or rent arrears. The message is clear: rough sleeping is about more than homelessness. Yesterday I announced a 40 per cent increase in the budget—an extra £6 million for the next two years. Two million pounds will be available for local authorities that have not yet developed comprehensive rough sleeping strategies. Many of them are in rural areas, where the problems of rough sleeping are less obvious, but no less distressing for that. Two million pounds extra will be available for support services to help rough sleepers with the acute problems I have described so that they can be supported when they go into permanent accommodation and do not go back on to the streets.", "EditedTextHTML": "That exact point was the basis for the report, undertaken as part of the rough sleepers initiative, that hit my desk 10 days ago.

Three quarters of the rough sleepers in Glasgow had used drugs in the last month; 60 per cent had mental health problems; few had medical support. Sixty per cent of rough sleepers are regular hostel dwellers and 65 per cent now have at least one failed tenancy behind them. Almost half of those who are sleeping rough in the streets of Glasgow have been in a hostel, but 70 per cent of them have been evicted and almost half of them have had some sort of accommodation ban for violent behaviour, drug or alcohol abuse or rent arrears.

The message is clear: rough sleeping is about more than homelessness. Yesterday I announced a 40 per cent increase in the budget—an extra £6 million for the next two years. Two million pounds will be available for local authorities that have not yet developed comprehensive rough sleeping strategies. Many of them are in rural areas, where the problems of rough sleeping are less obvious, but no less distressing for that. Two million pounds extra will be available for support services to help rough sleepers with the acute problems I have described so that they can be supported when they go into permanent accommodation and do not go back on to the streets.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C707953", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26832, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 869.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 869.0, "ID": 26832, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 881.0, "ContributionID": 707953, "EditedText": "I am happy to commit that, tomeet the pledge, every area must have a comprehensive rough sleeping strategy. The challenge element, however, has allowed the people who put forward the best strategy to be the beneficiaries of the money. Sometimes the local authority has the best strategy, sometimes Shelter does. The important thing is that we have comprehensive anti-homelessness strategies throughout Scotland. The provider will not always be the same. The rest of the money will go to prevent homelessness. I want to highlight the idea of rent deposit schemes. In last week's edition of The Big Issue, vendor after vendor talked about what the Aberdeen Cyrenians rent deposit scheme had done to help them re-establish homes. I want that sort of rent deposit scheme to operate across Scotland. A couple of years ago, I was invited to join a scheme to pool rent deposits for young people in my area who were facing homelessness. Other Scots need to have the same chance. This is not just about new money for joined-up services; it is about joined-up action in government. It is about Susan Deacon, Jim Wallace and I working together to ensure that prisoners who are released from places such as Greenock do not fall into rough sleeping because they do not have the right support services when they enter the community. Special attention must be paid to the problem of young people leaving care. That problem, too, is highlighted extensively in last week's edition of The Big Issue. Sam Galbraith will make an announcement on that shortly. This is not just about central government. Local government, housing, health, social work and the police services all need to do better. I raised this point with members of the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities and the social affairs forum when I met them on Monday. They recognise the need for local authorities to develop comprehensive local homelessness strategies. As a first step, they agreed that I ask the homelessness task force today to consider the need to apply time limits to dealing with cases of rough sleepers. If the homelessness task force recommends time limits, we will include the necessary legislation in the homelessness bill. When it comes to rough sleeping, one extra night on the streets is one night too many. Rough sleeping is in our sights as never before, but the broader issue of homelessness is the next challenge. Our homelessness legislation in Scotland is almost 20 years out of date. We measure the wrong things, in the wrong way, for the wrong reasons. We have acted swiftly, as Shelter—and other organisations—have requested. I draw Parliament's attention to Shelter's response to our green paper earlier this year. Shelter proposed \"an initial six month period identifying and acting on urgent issues\" and then a longer phase \"of up to two years setting out a rolling programme of legislation and policy changes through to the second term of the Scottish Parliament.\" I could not have put it better myself. In short, we need to take a long, hard look at the experiences and causes of homelessness and the remedies for it. I say in all candour to the many committed campaigners in this chamber who would rush me to a solution—however well intended—that they risk, perhaps inadvertently, having neither the interests of the homeless nor of those who work on their behalf at heart. Good intentions are not enough in a Parliament. They can lead to ill- thought-through, piecemeal legislation. We need well-planned, effective legislation, fit for a new generation. The task force has got off to a flying start. I want an initial report within six months and new legislation. However, where it is possible to act now, we will do so. The law governing mortgage repossessions is one such area. With a short, focused piece of conveyancing legislation, we can assist up to 3,000 Scottish families at risk of repossession. Cathie Craigie will prepare a bill with support from the Law Society. That is a huge step forward in the new politics.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am happy to commit that, to

meet the pledge, every area must have a comprehensive rough sleeping strategy. The challenge element, however, has allowed the people who put forward the best strategy to be the beneficiaries of the money. Sometimes the local authority has the best strategy, sometimes Shelter does. The important thing is that we have comprehensive anti-homelessness strategies throughout Scotland. The provider will not always be the same.

The rest of the money will go to prevent homelessness. I want to highlight the idea of rent deposit schemes. In last week's edition of The Big Issue, vendor after vendor talked about what the Aberdeen Cyrenians rent deposit scheme had done to help them re-establish homes. I want that sort of rent deposit scheme to operate across Scotland. A couple of years ago, I was invited to join a scheme to pool rent deposits for young people in my area who were facing homelessness. Other Scots need to have the same chance.

This is not just about new money for joined-up services; it is about joined-up action in government. It is about Susan Deacon, Jim Wallace and I working together to ensure that prisoners who are released from places such as Greenock do not fall into rough sleeping because they do not have the right support services when they enter the community. Special attention must be paid to the problem of young people leaving care. That problem, too, is highlighted extensively in last week's edition of The Big Issue. Sam Galbraith will make an announcement on that shortly.

This is not just about central government. Local government, housing, health, social work and the police services all need to do better. I raised this point with members of the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities and the social affairs forum when I met them on Monday. They recognise the need for local authorities to develop comprehensive local homelessness strategies. As a first step, they agreed that I ask the homelessness task force today to consider the need to apply time limits to dealing with cases of rough sleepers. If the homelessness task force recommends time limits, we will include the necessary legislation in the homelessness bill. When it comes to rough sleeping, one extra night on the streets is one night too many.

Rough sleeping is in our sights as never before, but the broader issue of homelessness is the next challenge. Our homelessness legislation in Scotland is almost 20 years out of date. We measure the wrong things, in the wrong way, for the wrong reasons. We have acted swiftly, as Shelter—and other organisations—have requested. I draw Parliament's attention to Shelter's response to our green paper earlier this year. Shelter proposed

\"an initial six month period identifying and acting on urgent issues\" and then a longer phase

\"of up to two years setting out a rolling programme of legislation and policy changes through to the second term of the Scottish Parliament.\"

I could not have put it better myself. In short, we need to take a long, hard look at the experiences and causes of homelessness and the remedies for it.

I say in all candour to the many committed campaigners in this chamber who would rush me to a solution—however well intended—that they risk, perhaps inadvertently, having neither the interests of the homeless nor of those who work on their behalf at heart. Good intentions are not enough in a Parliament. They can lead to ill- thought-through, piecemeal legislation. We need well-planned, effective legislation, fit for a new generation.

The task force has got off to a flying start. I want an initial report within six months and new legislation. However, where it is possible to act now, we will do so. The law governing mortgage repossessions is one such area. With a short, focused piece of conveyancing legislation, we can assist up to 3,000 Scottish families at risk of repossession. Cathie Craigie will prepare a bill with support from the Law Society. That is a huge step forward in the new politics.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C707957", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26832, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 869.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 869.0, "ID": 26832, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 889.0, "ContributionID": 707957, "EditedText": "No, I am sorry, I need to finish.Let me conclude by linking homelessness to the Government's wider housing agenda. One third of Scotland's homeless applicants come from Glasgow. In the new future of community ownership that we are offering to Glasgow's tenants, we must also meet the aspirations of the homeless people in that city. They are the new tenants of tomorrow. Shelter and others have legitimately raised concerns that the creation of community ownership could leave councils with statutory obligations towards the homeless but without the homes to keep that promise. I can offer reassurance, however. If tenants in Glasgow—or anywhere else in Scotland—opt for a new future, I am determined that we will do whatever it takes, be it nomination agreements or new rules for new landlords, to ensure that that city's homeless are housed. I also take this opportunity to tell Parliament that I propose, with the city council's agreement, the establishment of a formal steering group to oversee the next phases of work to develop a transfer proposal. Such a steering group would include representatives of the Executive, the city council, Glasgow Alliance, Scottish Homes and the local housing association movement. However, at the end of the day, in Glasgow as elsewhere, the tenants alone will decide their future. I have told the Parliament about the Executive's plans for tackling rough sleeping, for rethinking homelessness and for moving forward in Glasgow. New solutions are being put in place. Scotland deserves no less. That is what this Parliament and this Executive are all about. I move,That the Parliament agrees that the Scottish Executive is fully committed to tackling the scourge of homelessness in Scotland by virtue of its pledge in the Programme for Government that it will ensure that no-one has to sleep rough by 2003; by providing new accommodation and better support services, and by the establishment of a Task Force to (a) review the causes and nature of homelessness in Scotland, (b) examine current practice in dealing with cases of homelessness, and (c) make recommendations on how homelessness in Scotland can be best prevented and, where it does occur, tackled effectively.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I am sorry, I need to finish.

Let me conclude by linking homelessness to the Government's wider housing agenda. One third of Scotland's homeless applicants come from Glasgow. In the new future of community ownership that we are offering to Glasgow's tenants, we must also meet the aspirations of the homeless people in that city. They are the new tenants of tomorrow.

Shelter and others have legitimately raised concerns that the creation of community ownership could leave councils with statutory obligations towards the homeless but without the homes to keep that promise. I can offer reassurance, however. If tenants in Glasgow—or anywhere else in Scotland—opt for a new future, I am determined that we will do whatever it takes, be it nomination agreements or new rules for new

landlords, to ensure that that city's homeless are housed.

I also take this opportunity to tell Parliament that I propose, with the city council's agreement, the establishment of a formal steering group to oversee the next phases of work to develop a transfer proposal. Such a steering group would include representatives of the Executive, the city council, Glasgow Alliance, Scottish Homes and the local housing association movement. However, at the end of the day, in Glasgow as elsewhere, the tenants alone will decide their future.

I have told the Parliament about the Executive's plans for tackling rough sleeping, for rethinking homelessness and for moving forward in Glasgow. New solutions are being put in place. Scotland deserves no less. That is what this Parliament and this Executive are all about.

I move,

That the Parliament agrees that the Scottish Executive is fully committed to tackling the scourge of homelessness in Scotland by virtue of its pledge in the Programme for Government that it will ensure that no-one has to sleep rough by 2003; by providing new accommodation and better support services, and by the establishment of a Task Force to (a) review the causes and nature of homelessness in Scotland, (b) examine current practice in dealing with cases of homelessness, and (c) make recommendations on how homelessness in Scotland can be best prevented and, where it does occur, tackled effectively.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2234E7P20C707961", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26832, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 869.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 869.0, "ID": 26832, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Aitken, Bill", "ID": 2234, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bill Aitken", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bill Aitken (Glasgow) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 899.0, "ContributionID": 707961, "EditedText": "This is an important debate, and one that extends well beyond the confines of this Parliament. That is a good thing. We should involve as many people as possible in the decisions that must be made. I hope, however, that the debate will not go on for too long. There are important issues to be decided, and urgent issues that must be addressed. It would be churlish of me to accuse the minister and her colleagues of complacency. They have, after all, held their present remits for only four months. They are, however, members of the Labour party which in the general election of 1997 pledged to tackle the scourge of homelessness. The net effect of their efforts has been pitiful, frankly, and there has been a heartbreaking increase in the number of homeless persons.", "EditedTextHTML": "This is an important debate, and one that extends well beyond the confines of this Parliament. That is a good thing. We should involve as many people as possible in the decisions that must be made. I hope, however, that the debate will not go on for too long. There are important issues to be decided, and urgent issues that must be addressed.

It would be churlish of me to accuse the minister and her colleagues of complacency. They have, after all, held their present remits for only four months. They are, however, members of the Labour party which in the general election of 1997 pledged to tackle the scourge of homelessness. The net effect of their efforts has been pitiful, frankly, and there has been a heartbreaking increase in the number of homeless persons.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2080E130P217C707964", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26832, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 869.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 869.0, "ID": 26832, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lamont, Johann", "ID": 2080, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Pollok" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Johann Lamont", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Johann Lamont: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 905.0, "ContributionID": 707964, "EditedText": "Does Mr Aitken agree thatthere is lot of evidence to suggest a direct link between deprivation, unemployment and homelessness? It took the Tories 18 years to create the crisis in homelessness, and you have the audacity to stand there and say that it has taken us two years to address the problem. I am amazed that I can even find the words to condemn you for saying such a thing. I hope that you will support the measures that have been proposed and perhaps will make some positive suggestions about how they can be moved forward.", "EditedTextHTML": "Does Mr Aitken agree that

there is lot of evidence to suggest a direct link between deprivation, unemployment and homelessness? It took the Tories 18 years to create the crisis in homelessness, and you have the audacity to stand there and say that it has taken us two years to address the problem. I am amazed that I can even find the words to condemn you for saying such a thing. I hope that you will support the measures that have been proposed and perhaps will make some positive suggestions about how they can be moved forward.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2234E7P20C707965", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26832, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 869.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 869.0, "ID": 26832, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Aitken, Bill", "ID": 2234, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bill Aitken", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bill Aitken: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 907.0, "ContributionID": 707965, "EditedText": "Ah, I hear what the lady has to say. Is it not the case that the commonwealth ceased to exist on 7 April 1979 and began again on 1 May 1997? For how much longer do she and her colleagues think that they will get away with blaming the Labour Government—the Conservative Government? Laughter. It was John Major. It was Margaret Thatcher. Are we to go back to the days of Stanley Baldwin? Benjamin Disraeli? The fact of the matter is that there has been a Labour Government in power for almost two-and-a-half years and nothing has happened on the issue of homelessness, to the extent that there has been a substantial and dramatic increase in the number of people suffering. That is the blunt truth. The sooner that she and her colleagues accept it, the sooner we will be able to progress the situation.", "EditedTextHTML": "Ah, I hear what the lady has to say. Is it not the case that the commonwealth ceased to exist on 7 April 1979 and began again on 1 May 1997? For how much longer do she and her colleagues think that they will get away with blaming the Labour Government—the Conservative Government? [Laughter.] It was John Major. It was Margaret Thatcher. Are we to go back to the days of Stanley Baldwin? Benjamin Disraeli? The fact of the matter is that there has been a Labour Government in power for almost two-and-a-half years and nothing has happened on the issue of homelessness, to the extent that there has been a substantial and dramatic increase in the number of people suffering. That is the blunt truth. The sooner that she and her colleagues accept it, the sooner we will be able to progress the situation.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2234E7P20C707969", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26832, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 869.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 869.0, "ID": 26832, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Aitken, Bill", "ID": 2234, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bill Aitken", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bill Aitken: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 915.0, "ContributionID": 707969, "EditedText": "The working of those regulations may have given some cause for concern, but the basic problem cannot be denied. That problem is drugs and the increase in addiction to drugs.", "EditedTextHTML": "The working of those regulations may have given some cause for concern, but the basic problem cannot be denied. That problem is drugs and the increase in addiction to drugs.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2234E7P20C707972", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26832, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 869.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 869.0, "ID": 26832, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Aitken, Bill", "ID": 2234, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bill Aitken", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bill Aitken: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 921.0, "ContributionID": 707972, "EditedText": "Mr Gibson will be aware that statistics do not bear out that opinion. Frankly, there is much in the ministerial statement that is to be welcomed, but it is sadly short on detail. I accept that that is inevitable at this stage, but we must examine the problem. Labour cannot lock itself away from the fact that it has been in power for two and a half years and nothing has happened. The statistics that I quoted are damning. Much of Scotland's youth is suffering. They would not have suffered under the housing policy of the Conservative Government, which—under the caring and imaginative leadership of my friend Lord James Douglas-Hamilton—ensured that nothing of this magnitude happened to people in this country.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Gibson will be aware that statistics do not bear out that opinion.

Frankly, there is much in the ministerial statement that is to be welcomed, but it is sadly short on detail. I accept that that is inevitable at this stage, but we must examine the problem.

Labour cannot lock itself away from the fact that it has been in power for two and a half years and nothing has happened.

The statistics that I quoted are damning. Much of Scotland's youth is suffering. They would not have suffered under the housing policy of the Conservative Government, which—under the caring and imaginative leadership of my friend Lord James Douglas-Hamilton—ensured that nothing of this magnitude happened to people in this country.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2142E142P230C707977", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26832, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 869.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 869.0, "ID": 26832, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Watson, Mike", "ID": 2142, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Cathcart" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Watson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mike Watson (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 933.0, "ContributionID": 707977, "EditedText": "This is an important debate and the number of people who want to speak indicates that—but that is not to say that Bill Aitken's levity was not welcome. It is unfortunate, however, that some of the Scottish National party's old attitudes are still evident in the amendment that we are considering. In tackling homelessness, we should be moving forward on a broader base, and no party has a monopoly on hand wringing and concern. To suggest that the Scottish National party has answers that the coalition parties do not have is, quite frankly, wrong. I regret the fact that the amendment ends by calling on the Executive \"to bring forward the proposed publishing date of a draft housing bill to the end of 1999.\" Can that amendment have been lodged by the same Scottish National party that, two weeks ago, accused the coalition of acting too quickly on mental health legislation, saying that more consideration was needed and that, if we legislate at haste, we will repent at leisure? The timetable for the homelessness task force and the housing green paper is set out. We have said so half a dozen times in the past few months, and I do not know how many times we need to say it again before it gets through to Fiona Hyslop, but that is why there is no housing bill in the legislative programme at the moment. The same is true of the mass sell-off of council houses. I do not deny that the transfer of housing stock has implications for homeless people. Of course it has. At yesterday morning's meeting of the Social Inclusion, Housing and Voluntary Sector Committee, Fiona Hyslop, Alex Neil and Lloyd Quinan were all there when the minister spoke about housing stock transfer.", "EditedTextHTML": "This is an important debate and the number of people who want to speak indicates that—but that is not to say that Bill Aitken's levity was not welcome.

It is unfortunate, however, that some of the Scottish National party's old attitudes are still evident in the amendment that we are considering. In tackling homelessness, we should be moving forward on a broader base, and no party has a monopoly on hand wringing and concern. To suggest that the Scottish National party has answers that the coalition parties do not have is, quite frankly, wrong.

I regret the fact that the amendment ends by calling on the Executive

\"to bring forward the proposed publishing date of a draft housing bill to the end of 1999.\"

Can that amendment have been lodged by the same Scottish National party that, two weeks ago, accused the coalition of acting too quickly on mental health legislation, saying that more consideration was needed and that, if we legislate at haste, we will repent at leisure?

The timetable for the homelessness task force and the housing green paper is set out. We have said so half a dozen times in the past few months, and I do not know how many times we need to say it again before it gets through to Fiona Hyslop, but that is why there is no housing bill in the legislative programme at the moment.

The same is true of the mass sell-off of council houses. I do not deny that the transfer of housing stock has implications for homeless people. Of course it has. At yesterday morning's meeting of the Social Inclusion, Housing and Voluntary Sector Committee, Fiona Hyslop, Alex Neil and Lloyd Quinan were all there when the minister spoke about housing stock transfer.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2142E142P230C707983", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26832, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 869.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 869.0, "ID": 26832, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Watson, Mike", "ID": 2142, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Cathcart" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Watson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mike Watson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 945.0, "ContributionID": 707983, "EditedText": "I agree with that decision, but that was not what I thought Lloyd Quinan would ask about. If I had known that that was his point, I would not have given way. He should try to follow the debate more closely. It is crucial to establish one thing about this issue. I may have misheard Fiona Hyslop, and I am sure that she will tell me if I did, but I think that she said that she did not want the debate to move away from being centred on housing. The minister's opening remarks were perfectly clear, and Fiona Hyslop and her party seem to be going against the grain of what Shelter—probably the most respected organisation in the field—has to say. In its response to the housing green paper, Shelter has said that there is no doubt that it is not just a question of housing, and that social policy, welfare policy and economic policy are also involved. Unless all those things are wrapped up and put together to form a response to the problem, the debate cannot advance and we will not be able to help homeless people. Homeless people and those whom the agencies in the field are trying to help will not be grateful to us for squabbling across the chamber while they want the debate to progress. It is unfortunate that all members cannot recognise the fact that the homelessness task force has been established. The amendment calls on the Executive to make the homelessness task force a priority. It is a priority. It has been established and has had its first meeting. Just look at the people who are involved. There are representatives from Shelter, The Big Issue, the Scottish Council for Single Homeless and the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities, as well as academics and local authorities. What more does Fiona Hyslop want? Those people must be given time to consider the issue in its widest form. The papers from the first meeting have been circulated to all members, so SNP members know the ground that is being covered. Why should we try to rush out the bill by the end of the year? What would be the virtue in that? There is a lot of meat to get into and a lot of work to be done before the recommendations are published. Together with a response to the green paper on housing, those recommendations will inform the debate. We know about the rough sleepers initiative, the grants to voluntary bodies, the empty homes initiative and the hostel revenue grants. People should recognise that all those things are being done to tackle homelessness. The fact that the timing of the programme is the only objection that the SNP can trot out signifies that there is not much more that could be done and that it is simply a question of timing. The people who suffer homelessness in its various forms deserve a response from this Parliament that will have support across the parties and does not degenerate into a debate about how fast things are being done. There will be a housing bill. There will be legislation in this chamber at the first available opportunity after the green paper and the homelessness task force have been fully considered. That is the way forward and all parties should unite in responding to the problem, so that what eventually emerges from the Parliament has the support of all parties. That way we can seriously tackle the blight of homelessness in this country.", "EditedTextHTML": "I agree with that decision, but that was not what I thought Lloyd Quinan would ask about. If I had known that that was his point, I would not have given way. He should try to follow the debate more closely.

It is crucial to establish one thing about this issue. I may have misheard Fiona Hyslop, and I am sure that she will tell me if I did, but I think that she said that she did not want the debate to move away from being centred on housing. The minister's opening remarks were perfectly clear, and Fiona Hyslop and her party seem to be going against the grain of what Shelter—probably the most respected organisation in the field—has to say. In its response to the housing green paper, Shelter has said that there is no doubt that it is not just a question of housing, and that social policy, welfare policy and economic policy are also involved. Unless all those things are wrapped up and put together to form a response to the problem, the debate cannot advance and we will not be able to help homeless people. Homeless people and those whom the agencies in the field are trying to help will not be grateful to us for squabbling across the chamber while they want the debate to progress.

It is unfortunate that all members cannot recognise the fact that the homelessness task force has been established. The amendment calls

on the Executive to make the homelessness task force a priority. It is a priority. It has been established and has had its first meeting. Just look at the people who are involved. There are representatives from Shelter, The Big Issue, the Scottish Council for Single Homeless and the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities, as well as academics and local authorities. What more does Fiona Hyslop want?

Those people must be given time to consider the issue in its widest form. The papers from the first meeting have been circulated to all members, so SNP members know the ground that is being covered. Why should we try to rush out the bill by the end of the year? What would be the virtue in that? There is a lot of meat to get into and a lot of work to be done before the recommendations are published. Together with a response to the green paper on housing, those recommendations will inform the debate.

We know about the rough sleepers initiative, the grants to voluntary bodies, the empty homes initiative and the hostel revenue grants. People should recognise that all those things are being done to tackle homelessness. The fact that the timing of the programme is the only objection that the SNP can trot out signifies that there is not much more that could be done and that it is simply a question of timing. The people who suffer homelessness in its various forms deserve a response from this Parliament that will have support across the parties and does not degenerate into a debate about how fast things are being done.

There will be a housing bill. There will be legislation in this chamber at the first available opportunity after the green paper and the homelessness task force have been fully considered. That is the way forward and all parties should unite in responding to the problem, so that what eventually emerges from the Parliament has the support of all parties. That way we can seriously tackle the blight of homelessness in this country.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6390045+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1876E194P490C707986", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26832, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 869.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 869.0, "ID": 26832, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Marwick, Tricia", "ID": 1876, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tricia Marwick", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tricia Marwick: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 952.0, "ContributionID": 707986, "EditedText": "I accept that young people are being put on to new deal programmes, but I am sure that the minister would agree that there are still 16 and 18-year-olds who are excluded from all benefits and who are destitute. On Glasgow, if the minister genuinely wants to ensure that all our people are housed, she must ensure that there is Government money as well as private finance. In the first three years of the Labour Government, less has been spent on housing than the Tories spent in their final three years—there is no point in the minister shaking her head at that. We have record levels of homelessness, record housing waiting lists and the lowest amount of money spent on council housing in Scotland since the war. That is a disgrace. If the Executive is serious about tackling homelessness, it must find the money for housing. It is not enough to help people who are on the streets. We must ensure that people do not end up on the streets in the first place and we need to make sure that they have long-term or permanent homes. Much good work has been done in the voluntary sector but much more needs to be done. As Wendy said, some local authorities still do not have a rough sleeping strategy and it is only fairly recently that some councils have even acknowledged that they have rough sleepers in their area. The rough sleepers initiative will not succeed without a commitment to a wider housing policy and a social security system that does not leave young people destitute. Those points must be taken on board if we really want nobody to be sleeping rough on our streets by 2003. We must look at the wider issues if we are to make representation for the young people who have no money to live on.", "EditedTextHTML": "I accept that young people are being put on to new deal programmes, but I am sure that the minister would agree that there are still 16 and 18-year-olds who are excluded from all benefits and who are destitute. On Glasgow, if the minister genuinely wants to ensure that all our people are housed, she must ensure that there is Government money as well as private finance. In the first three years of the Labour Government, less has been spent on housing than the Tories spent in their final three years—there is no point in the minister shaking her head at that.

We have record levels of homelessness, record housing waiting lists and the lowest amount of money spent on council housing in Scotland since

the war. That is a disgrace. If the Executive is serious about tackling homelessness, it must find the money for housing. It is not enough to help people who are on the streets. We must ensure that people do not end up on the streets in the first place and we need to make sure that they have long-term or permanent homes.

Much good work has been done in the voluntary sector but much more needs to be done. As Wendy said, some local authorities still do not have a rough sleeping strategy and it is only fairly recently that some councils have even acknowledged that they have rough sleepers in their area. The rough sleepers initiative will not succeed without a commitment to a wider housing policy and a social security system that does not leave young people destitute.

Those points must be taken on board if we really want nobody to be sleeping rough on our streets by 2003. We must look at the wider issues if we are to make representation for the young people who have no money to live on.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6390045+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2090E83P266C707987", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26832, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 869.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 869.0, "ID": 26832, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAllion, Mr John", "ID": 2090, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dundee East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John McAllion", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr John McAllion (Dundee East) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 955.0, "ContributionID": 707987, "EditedText": "It has been raining for most of the day. When I walked up to Parliament this morning, I passed a bench on which a young man, huddled up in old dirty clothes, was fast asleep in the rain. The bench was not far away from the Department of Social Security office. No doubt he will be appearing there today to try to get some benefit and support to help him to eke out what is obviously a miserable existence. We should try to be conscious of young men such as him when we have this debate. When Wendy Alexander was asked to give her top priority as a minister, I was delighted that she picked helping young men like that. I am less than delighted about the way in which this debate has developed into the kind of party political knockabout that is so reminiscent of Westminster.", "EditedTextHTML": "It has been raining for most of the day. When I walked up to Parliament this morning, I passed a bench on which a young man, huddled up in old dirty clothes, was fast asleep in the rain. The bench was not far away from the Department of Social Security office. No doubt he will be appearing there today to try to get some benefit and support to help him to eke out what is obviously a miserable existence. We should try to be conscious of young men such as him when we have this debate.

When Wendy Alexander was asked to give her top priority as a minister, I was delighted that she picked helping young men like that. I am less than delighted about the way in which this debate has developed into the kind of party political knockabout that is so reminiscent of Westminster.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6390045+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2090E83P266C707989", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26832, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 869.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 869.0, "ID": 26832, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAllion, Mr John", "ID": 2090, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dundee East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John McAllion", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McAllion: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 959.0, "ContributionID": 707989, "EditedText": "I am sorry. I do not have time. A lot of people want to speak. I was disappointed by the cheap point scoring. We told the homeless, \"Wait until we get a Scottish Parliament. It will be different then.\" Judging by the SNP contributions this afternoon, people may think that it is not different. I see the same cheap party political point scoring that went on at Westminster and which does nothing for the homeless. The SNP is right in some ways. The young man who was lying on that bench is the visible tip of a big iceberg. He is the rough sleeper on the streets. The rough sleepers initiative will, I hope, get people off the streets by the Executive's target date, but of course the larger part of the iceberg is out of sight. It comprises the hidden homeless who are not on the streets: the people who are living in rooms in what used to be hotels but which have, in effect, now become refugee camps funded by the DSS; the people who move from house to house and sleep on their friends' floors and couches because they do not have a house of their own; the families who are living in quiet desperation in cramped conditions with their relatives because they have no access to housing. The Scottish Executive recognises those problems. That is why it established the homelessness task force. What I like about the homelessness task force is that, in setting it up, the Scottish Executive has implicitly admitted that it does not have all the answers, unlike some of the parties that have contributed to this debate and think that they do. The Scottish Executive recognises that there are people who know more than it does; people from Shelter, The Big Issue, the Scottish Council for Single Homeless and others who are on the homelessness task force. The Shelter submission to the task force recognises that even the experts do not know all the answers. Shelter wants the task force to consult widely, particularly among the homeless themselves, before it returns to the Executive with its recommendations. That is exactly the right way in which to proceed. The SNP amendment is exactly the wrong way in which to proceed, and all the professionals tell us that. Of course, there are issues that as politicians we can identify, but as party politicians and civil servants we know nothing about homelessness, so we should listen to those who do. I appeal to all those who will vote on this motion to unite behind the Executive, because it is correct on this matter. It is listening to and acting in liaison with the housing lobby and is talking to the homeless to try to get this package right. Wendy was correct when she said that rough sleeping was not just about being homeless and that being homeless was not just about not having a house; there are a hundred other reasons why people are homeless. We must examine all of them and join them up with solutions that will be practical, will work and will help the homeless; we must not indulge in the sort of cheap political point scoring that we have heard this afternoon.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry. I do not have time. A lot of people want to speak.

I was disappointed by the cheap point scoring. We told the homeless, \"Wait until we get a Scottish Parliament. It will be different then.\" Judging by the SNP contributions this afternoon, people may think that it is not different. I see the same cheap party political point scoring that went on at Westminster and which does nothing for the homeless.

The SNP is right in some ways. The young man who was lying on that bench is the visible tip of a big iceberg. He is the rough sleeper on the streets. The rough sleepers initiative will, I hope, get people off the streets by the Executive's target date, but of course the larger part of the iceberg is out of sight. It comprises the hidden homeless who are not on the streets: the people who are living in rooms in what used to be hotels but which have, in effect, now become refugee camps funded by the DSS; the people who move from house to house and sleep on their friends' floors and couches because they do not have a house of their own; the families who are living in quiet desperation in cramped conditions with their relatives because they have no access to housing.

The Scottish Executive recognises those problems. That is why it established the homelessness task force. What I like about the homelessness task force is that, in setting it up, the Scottish Executive has implicitly admitted that it does not have all the answers, unlike some of the parties that have contributed to this debate and think that they do. The Scottish Executive recognises that there are people who know more than it does; people from Shelter, The Big Issue, the Scottish Council for Single Homeless and others who are on the homelessness task force.

The Shelter submission to the task force recognises that even the experts do not know all the answers. Shelter wants the task force to consult widely, particularly among the homeless themselves, before it returns to the Executive with its recommendations. That is exactly the right way in which to proceed. The SNP amendment is exactly the wrong way in which to proceed, and all the professionals tell us that. Of course, there are issues that as politicians we can identify, but as party politicians and civil servants we know nothing about homelessness, so we should listen to those who do.

I appeal to all those who will vote on this motion to unite behind the Executive, because it is correct on this matter. It is listening to and acting in liaison with the housing lobby and is talking to the homeless to try to get this package right. Wendy was correct when she said that rough sleeping was not just about being homeless and that being homeless was not just about not having a house; there are a hundred other reasons why people are homeless. We must examine all of them and join them up with solutions that will be practical, will work and will help the homeless; we must not indulge in the sort of cheap political point scoring that we have heard this afternoon.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6390045+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2105E44P74C707990", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26832, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 869.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 869.0, "ID": 26832, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harding, Mr Keith", "ID": 2105, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Harding", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Keith Harding (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 962.0, "ContributionID": 707990, "EditedText": "I welcome the fact that the minister has made homelessness a priority commitment and that the Executive has put it firmly on the agenda. It is particularly pleasing to see that, as Tricia Marwick pointed out, the Executive intends to continue to use the rough sleepers initiative and other policies that were introduced by the Conservative Government. We are a little disappointed that the target date to resolve rough sleeping has been extended. Rough sleeping is only one aspect of the problem. I note that a task force is to be set up to examine the causes and nature of homelessness, but trust that that will not delay the problem being addressed at an early date. Homelessness is a complex problem brought about by circumstances in an individual's life, so there is no one solution to it. Many rough sleepers have a complex set of problems to resolve—drink, drugs, violence or family breakdown. They require medium-term support after accessing help through a hostel or other service gateway. Conservatives believe that the Labour Government has missed the opportunity to use the most recent rounds of rough sleepers initiative money to provide extra supported accommodation to help those moving from hostels into longer-term accommodation. Without such support, many homeless people are unable to cope in mainstream housing and return to the streets or to hostels. The inability to cope without support causes them to suffer further and may cause other problems in the estates in which they are housed—they may behave in a challenging manner that their neighbours deem anti-social, or they may fall into debt through difficulties in paying their rent or other bills.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the fact that the minister has made homelessness a priority commitment and that the Executive has put it firmly on the agenda. It is particularly pleasing to see that, as Tricia Marwick pointed out, the Executive intends to

continue to use the rough sleepers initiative and other policies that were introduced by the Conservative Government.

We are a little disappointed that the target date to resolve rough sleeping has been extended. Rough sleeping is only one aspect of the problem. I note that a task force is to be set up to examine the causes and nature of homelessness, but trust that that will not delay the problem being addressed at an early date.

Homelessness is a complex problem brought about by circumstances in an individual's life, so there is no one solution to it. Many rough sleepers have a complex set of problems to resolve—drink, drugs, violence or family breakdown. They require medium-term support after accessing help through a hostel or other service gateway.

Conservatives believe that the Labour Government has missed the opportunity to use the most recent rounds of rough sleepers initiative money to provide extra supported accommodation to help those moving from hostels into longer-term accommodation. Without such support, many homeless people are unable to cope in mainstream housing and return to the streets or to hostels. The inability to cope without support causes them to suffer further and may cause other problems in the estates in which they are housed—they may behave in a challenging manner that their neighbours deem anti-social, or they may fall into debt through difficulties in paying their rent or other bills.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6390045+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C707994", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26832, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 869.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 869.0, "ID": 26832, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 972.0, "ContributionID": 707994, "EditedText": "I am surprised that the likes of John, Margaret and Mike have a problem with our amendment, which welcomes the rough sleepers initiative, the establishment of a task force and the fact that this matter will be a priority. The amendment also expresses concerns that have been expressed by people outside this chamber who are living rough and by others who are homeless but not living rough. They have seen committees come and go; they are fed up with committees taking minutes and wasting years. Our concern is that the establishment of a task force and of another committee for Glasgow should not become an excuse for a lack of early action to deal with the problem of rough sleepers and homelessness. There is a general consensus in this chamber that this is a complex issue. The causes of homelessness and rooflessness are complex— they include drugs, the breakdown of homes, poverty and unemployment. We will probably not solve the problem of homelessness until we have tackled all those problems as well. However, there is a fundamental issue at stake here—that there are certain actions within the remit of both the Scottish Executive and the UK Government that can be taken to alleviate the situation. Let me deal with the issue of benefits, which is directly related to poverty. I can quote speeches that Mike and John made in the House of Commons, in which they said that one of the root causes of poverty among young people—of young people being forced to live in cardboard city in London—was the Tories' withdrawal about 10 years ago of benefit to 16 and 17-year-olds. Surely, one of the things that this Parliament and this Executive can do is to put pressure on what is supposed to be a Labour Government in London to restore that benefit, as we agree that that is one of the main reasons for young people sleeping rough. Consider some of the other changes that have been made, such as the one to housing benefit as it relates to single-room rent. That change affected 80 per cent of the young people in Scotland and forced many of them on to the street. The purpose of that change, which was made by the Tories and which was criticised by John McAllion and every other Labour politician, was to save £65 million a year, £6 million of which was being spent in Scotland. It is ironic that the £6 million that was saved equals the £6 million that has been announced for the rough sleepers initiative. There is no point in giving with one hand and taking away with the other. With all due respect to John, he was talking rubbish when he said that we do not know anything about the problem. Of course we do. Nobody has the solution, but we should all be agreed that the one way of tackling homelessness at its root is to give back to young people the benefits that they have been robbed of. Why is righting the wrongs of the Tories not part of the Executive's agenda as well as taking the necessary action to address homelessness in Scotland?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am surprised that the likes of John, Margaret and Mike have a problem with our amendment, which welcomes the rough sleepers initiative, the establishment of a task force and the fact that this matter will be a priority. The amendment also expresses concerns that have been expressed by people outside this chamber who are living rough and by others who are homeless but not living rough. They have seen committees come and go; they are fed up with committees taking minutes and wasting years. Our concern is that the establishment of a task force and of another committee for Glasgow should not become an excuse for a lack of early action to deal with the problem of rough sleepers and homelessness.

There is a general consensus in this chamber that this is a complex issue. The causes of homelessness and rooflessness are complex— they include drugs, the breakdown of homes, poverty and unemployment. We will probably not solve the problem of homelessness until we have tackled all those problems as well. However, there is a fundamental issue at stake here—that there are certain actions within the remit of both the Scottish Executive and the UK Government that can be taken to alleviate the situation.

Let me deal with the issue of benefits, which is directly related to poverty. I can quote speeches that Mike and John made in the House of Commons, in which they said that one of the root causes of poverty among young people—of young people being forced to live in cardboard city in London—was the Tories' withdrawal about 10 years ago of benefit to 16 and 17-year-olds. Surely, one of the things that this Parliament and this Executive can do is to put pressure on what is supposed to be a Labour Government in London to restore that benefit, as we agree that that is one of the main reasons for young people sleeping rough.

Consider some of the other changes that have been made, such as the one to housing benefit as it relates to single-room rent. That change affected 80 per cent of the young people in Scotland and forced many of them on to the street. The purpose of that change, which was made by the Tories and which was criticised by John McAllion and every other Labour politician, was to save £65 million a year, £6 million of which was being spent in Scotland. It is ironic that the £6 million that was saved equals the £6 million that has been announced for the rough sleepers initiative. There is no point in giving with one hand and taking away with the other.

With all due respect to John, he was talking rubbish when he said that we do not know anything about the problem. Of course we do. Nobody has the solution, but we should all be agreed that the one way of tackling homelessness at its root is to give back to young people the

benefits that they have been robbed of. Why is righting the wrongs of the Tories not part of the Executive's agenda as well as taking the necessary action to address homelessness in Scotland?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6390045+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2118E157P454C707998", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26832, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 869.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 869.0, "ID": 26832, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Quinan, Mr Lloyd", "ID": 2118, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lloyd Quinan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Quinan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 982.0, "ContributionID": 707998, "EditedText": "Not at the moment, Wendy.There is concern at Ms Alexander's suggestion that the assessment of homeless people in Glasgow had turned up a number of statistics on drug and alcohol abuse. Which is the chicken and which is the egg? She might be making a judgment on that a little too early. Some of the other concerns relate to how core Government policy will impact on homelessness, especially when policies superficially seem to be related to the Immigration and Asylum Bill, the sex offenders register and the review of supported accommodation costs via housing benefit. I am sure that Ms Alexander will understand what I am saying, as it relates to her presentation to the Social Inclusion, Housing and Voluntary Sector Committee yesterday. A strategic view has to be taken and—as my colleague Mr Neil suggested— central Government has to be consulted. The dis- United Kingdom Government could be very useful in that area. I entirely accept Ms Alexander's commitment to consider provision, but we are concerned about it, whichever form—stock transfer or community ownership—it takes over the years. However, I suggest that the offer from Shelter in the proposal for the consultation programme be accepted. It may be useful to use such a body to organise things and to give a sense of a bridge between the Executive and the people. Shelter is the most experienced body in its field. It has been suggested that the consultation process should be designed to ensure that people feel able to raise issues that lie well outside the traditional confines of housing policy. It is vital that Ms Alexander takes that advice. To reiterate what my colleagues have said, we are a little sad that there is no housing bill and we are slightly concerned that the Executive might make use of members' bills to pass legislation. However, that is a separate issue. I was incredibly struck by one thing that Ms Alexander said. I am not trying to top John McAllion, but this morning I deliberately walked here from the top of Easter Road—near the bottom of the Royal Mile—and went in and out some of the closes on the way. I came across 19 people sleeping rough. If one walks down Advocate's Close on the way to Waverley station, one will see the most perfectly worked out little bedsit in an arch at the side of a building. Wendy said that one night of rough sleeping is one night too many. If she fully believes that, I suggest that instead of waiting for the task force to report in six months, she should take emergency action now. It can be done. The Executive must take people off the streets now—while the consultation is going on and while the task force is at work—so that they are not sleeping on the streets during the winter. I commend the amendment to the chamber.", "EditedTextHTML": "Not at the moment, Wendy.

There is concern at Ms Alexander's suggestion that the assessment of homeless people in Glasgow had turned up a number of statistics on drug and alcohol abuse. Which is the chicken and which is the egg? She might be making a judgment on that a little too early.

Some of the other concerns relate to how core Government policy will impact on homelessness, especially when policies superficially seem to be related to the Immigration and Asylum Bill, the sex offenders register and the review of supported accommodation costs via housing benefit. I am sure that Ms Alexander will understand what I am saying, as it relates to her presentation to the Social Inclusion, Housing and Voluntary Sector Committee yesterday. A strategic view has to be taken and—as my colleague Mr Neil suggested— central Government has to be consulted. The dis- United Kingdom Government could be very useful in that area.

I entirely accept Ms Alexander's commitment to consider provision, but we are concerned about it, whichever form—stock transfer or community ownership—it takes over the years. However, I suggest that the offer from Shelter in the proposal for the consultation programme be accepted. It may be useful to use such a body to organise things and to give a sense of a bridge between the Executive and the people. Shelter is the most experienced body in its field. It has been suggested that the consultation process should be designed to ensure that people feel able to raise issues that lie well outside the traditional confines of housing policy. It is vital that Ms Alexander takes that advice.

To reiterate what my colleagues have said, we are a little sad that there is no housing bill and we are slightly concerned that the Executive might make use of members' bills to pass legislation. However, that is a separate issue.

I was incredibly struck by one thing that Ms Alexander said. I am not trying to top John McAllion, but this morning I deliberately walked here from the top of Easter Road—near the bottom of the Royal Mile—and went in and out some of the closes on the way. I came across 19 people sleeping rough. If one walks down Advocate's Close on the way to Waverley station, one will see the most perfectly worked out little bedsit in an arch at the side of a building.

Wendy said that one night of rough sleeping is one night too many. If she fully believes that, I suggest that instead of waiting for the task force to report in six months, she should take emergency action now. It can be done. The Executive must take people off the streets now—while the consultation is going on and while the task force is at work—so that they are not sleeping on the streets during the winter. I commend the amendment to the chamber.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6390045+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708004", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26833, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 987.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 987.0, "ID": 26833, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 996.0, "ContributionID": 708004, "EditedText": "The result of the division is: For 67, Against 42, Abstentions 0.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result of the division is: For 67, Against 42, Abstentions 0.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6390045+00:00" }, { "ID": "C708005", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26833, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 987.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 987.0, "ID": 26833, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 998.0, "ContributionID": 708005, "EditedText": "Amendment agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6390045+00:00" }, { "ID": "C708009", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26833, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 987.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 987.0, "ID": 26833, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1005.0, "ContributionID": 708009, "EditedText": "FOR Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)(LD)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab) Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab) Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab) Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab) AGAINST Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)ABSTENTIONS Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)
(LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)

AGAINST

Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)

ABSTENTIONS

Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6390045+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708010", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26833, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 987.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 987.0, "ID": 26833, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1006.0, "ContributionID": 708010, "EditedText": "The result of the division is: For 68, Against 16, Abstentions 25.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result of the division is: For 68, Against 16, Abstentions 25.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6390045+00:00" }, { "ID": "C708012", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26833, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 987.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 987.0, "ID": 26833, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1009.0, "ContributionID": 708012, "EditedText": "That the Parliament welcomes the increased profile that has been given to transport issues and the Scottish Executive's commitment to continue reducing vehicle emission levels; recognises the importance of Scotland's transport links by road, rail, sea and air to our markets in the rest of the UK, the European Union and beyond; commends the efforts the Scottish Executive is making to tackle the consequences of eighteen years of Conservative transport policies and reverse the resulting legacy of under investment, rising congestion and environmental degradation, and calls upon the Scottish Executive to continue to work to deliver a sustainable, effective and integrated transport system through in particular the", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament welcomes the increased profile that has been given to transport issues and the Scottish Executive's commitment to continue reducing vehicle emission levels; recognises the importance of Scotland's transport links by road, rail, sea and air to our markets in the rest of the UK, the European Union and beyond; commends the efforts the Scottish Executive is making to tackle the consequences of eighteen years of Conservative transport policies and reverse the resulting legacy of under investment, rising congestion and environmental degradation, and calls upon the Scottish Executive to continue to work to deliver a sustainable, effective and integrated transport system through in particular the

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6390045+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708014", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26833, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 987.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 987.0, "ID": 26833, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1011.0, "ContributionID": 708014, "EditedText": "The third question is, that amendment S1M-158.1, in the name of Henry McLeish, be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "The third question is, that amendment S1M-158.1, in the name of Henry McLeish, be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6390045+00:00" }, { "ID": "C708015", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26833, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 987.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 987.0, "ID": 26833, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1013.0, "ContributionID": 708015, "EditedText": "Amendment agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6390045+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708016", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26833, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 987.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 987.0, "ID": 26833, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1014.0, "ContributionID": 708016, "EditedText": "The fourth question is, that motion S1M-158, as amended, be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "The fourth question is, that motion S1M-158, as amended, be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6390045+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708019", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26833, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 987.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 987.0, "ID": 26833, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1018.0, "ContributionID": 708019, "EditedText": "The fifth question is, that amendment S1M-154.2, in the name of Fiona Hyslop, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "The fifth question is, that amendment S1M-154.2, in the name of Fiona Hyslop, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6390045+00:00" }, { "ID": "C708020", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26833, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 987.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 987.0, "ID": 26833, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1020.0, "ContributionID": 708020, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6390045+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708021", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26833, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 987.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 987.0, "ID": 26833, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1022.0, "ContributionID": 708021, "EditedText": "There will be a division.", "EditedTextHTML": "There will be a division.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6390045+00:00" }, { "ID": "C708022", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26833, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 987.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 987.0, "ID": 26833, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1024.0, "ContributionID": 708022, "EditedText": "FOR Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)AGAINST Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)(LD)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)

AGAINST

Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)
(LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6390045+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708023", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26833, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 987.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 987.0, "ID": 26833, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1025.0, "ContributionID": 708023, "EditedText": "The result is: For 44, Against 65, Abstentions 0.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result is: For 44, Against 65, Abstentions 0.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6390045+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708031", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Salmon Farming", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26834, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1038.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1038.0, "ID": 26834, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1039.0, "ContributionID": 708031, "EditedText": "We now move to members' business and motion S1M98, in the name of Mr Tavish Scott, on the crisis in salmon farming. The debate will last 30 minutes and will be concluded without any question being put. If they are not staying for the debate, I ask members to be courteous and to leave quietly and quickly in fairness to the member whose motion is being debated.", "EditedTextHTML": "We now move to members' business and motion S1M98, in the name of Mr Tavish Scott, on the crisis in salmon farming. The debate will last 30 minutes and will be concluded without any question being put.

If they are not staying for the debate, I ask members to be courteous and to leave quietly and quickly in fairness to the member whose motion is being debated.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6390045+00:00" }, { "ID": "C708032", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Salmon Farming", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26834, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1038.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1038.0, "ID": 26834, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1041.0, "ContributionID": 708032, "EditedText": "Motion debated,", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion debated,

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6390045+00:00" }, { "ID": "C708033", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Salmon Farming", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26834, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1038.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1038.0, "ID": 26834, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1042.0, "ContributionID": 708033, "EditedText": "That the Parliament recognises the financial pressures the Salmon Farming industry in Shetland is facing, and notes that the industry creates employment for 900 people in this peripheral area of Scotland and contributes £60 million per annum to the Shetland economy.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament recognises the financial pressures the Salmon Farming industry in Shetland is facing, and notes that the industry creates employment for 900 people in this peripheral area of Scotland and contributes £60 million per annum to the Shetland economy.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6390045+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C708050", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Salmon Farming", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26834, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1038.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1038.0, "ID": 26834, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1082.0, "ContributionID": 708050, "EditedText": "I call on Mr John Home Robertson to wind up the debate.", "EditedTextHTML": "I call on Mr John Home Robertson to wind up the debate.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C708035", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Salmon Farming", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26834, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1038.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1038.0, "ID": 26834, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1046.0, "ContributionID": 708035, "EditedText": "I ask members to keep their remarks to three minutes to accommodate as many members as possible.", "EditedTextHTML": "I ask members to keep their remarks to three minutes to accommodate as many members as possible.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1840E82P158C708040", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Salmon Farming", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26834, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1038.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1038.0, "ID": 26834, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macmillan, Maureen", "ID": 1840, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Maureen Macmillan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Maureen Macmillan (Highlands and Islands) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1059.0, "ContributionID": 708040, "EditedText": "I thank Tavish for raising this matter. The crux of the problem is that we are tied up in quite inappropriate European regulations, which treat the fish farming industry as if it were land-based farming. One of the directors of Aquascot said to me yesterday, \"If you have a field full of cows, you don't have to worry about wild cows poking their heads through the fence and passing a disease to your stock, but if you're fish farming, it's all too easy for wild fish to pass on disease to farmed fish.\" Fish farmers believe that ISA is endemic in the wild fish population. Under present regulations, ISA need only be suspected in one fish, in one cage, for the farm to be quarantined and the stock ruled unable to be moved. A farm that, in the end, does not have the disease can suffer considerable financial loss through having its operations halted. That happened to Wester Ross Salmon Ltd. Farms that contract ISA have to slaughter their stock, even if only a few fish are affected. Supermarkets will not buy perfectly healthy fish from that zone, because of the perception that the fish are diseased. Ironically, the supermarkets will then buy their fish from Norway, where the regulations are less strict and the fish may come from areas in which the disease has been controlled rather than eradicated. Another problem, which has already been mentioned, is the ban on movement of young fish within zones. If young fish cannot be moved, they outgrow their cages, become stressed and are more susceptible to disease. The stock of fish is the farmer's collateral with the bank. With ISA so prevalent and impossibly expensive to insure against, the banks will stop lending money against a farm full of fish that may have to be slaughtered before they are sold. Fish farmers believe that ISA can never be eradicated. If the industry is to survive and develop by farming other species of fish such as cod and turbot that are also susceptible to diseases— which do not affect human beings but are borne by wild fish—we need a regulatory system that allows control of the disease rather than one that insists on total eradication. The Executive has sympathy with this point of view and I ask it to pursue with all speed the possibility of control regulation. Some farms were brought to the verge of bankruptcy because, although disease free, they were closed down on mere suspicion. I hope that any compensation or help package will be applied to such farms and not be strictly confined to those that suffered the disease.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank Tavish for raising this matter. The crux of the problem is that we are tied up in quite inappropriate European regulations, which treat the fish farming industry as if it were land-based farming.

One of the directors of Aquascot said to me yesterday, \"If you have a field full of cows, you don't have to worry about wild cows poking their heads through the fence and passing a disease to your stock, but if you're fish farming, it's all too easy for wild fish to pass on disease to farmed fish.\" Fish farmers believe that ISA is endemic in the wild fish population.

Under present regulations, ISA need only be suspected in one fish, in one cage, for the farm to be quarantined and the stock ruled unable to be moved. A farm that, in the end, does not have the disease can suffer considerable financial loss through having its operations halted. That happened to Wester Ross Salmon Ltd. Farms that

contract ISA have to slaughter their stock, even if only a few fish are affected. Supermarkets will not buy perfectly healthy fish from that zone, because of the perception that the fish are diseased. Ironically, the supermarkets will then buy their fish from Norway, where the regulations are less strict and the fish may come from areas in which the disease has been controlled rather than eradicated.

Another problem, which has already been mentioned, is the ban on movement of young fish within zones. If young fish cannot be moved, they outgrow their cages, become stressed and are more susceptible to disease.

The stock of fish is the farmer's collateral with the bank. With ISA so prevalent and impossibly expensive to insure against, the banks will stop lending money against a farm full of fish that may have to be slaughtered before they are sold. Fish farmers believe that ISA can never be eradicated.

If the industry is to survive and develop by farming other species of fish such as cod and turbot that are also susceptible to diseases— which do not affect human beings but are borne by wild fish—we need a regulatory system that allows control of the disease rather than one that insists on total eradication. The Executive has sympathy with this point of view and I ask it to pursue with all speed the possibility of control regulation.

Some farms were brought to the verge of bankruptcy because, although disease free, they were closed down on mere suspicion. I hope that any compensation or help package will be applied to such farms and not be strictly confined to those that suffered the disease.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C708041", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Salmon Farming", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26834, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1038.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1038.0, "ID": 26834, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon (Argyll and Bute) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1062.0, "ContributionID": 708041, "EditedText": "I, too, welcome this debate, initiated by my colleague Tavish Scott. The salmon farming industry is important to Argyll and Bute, where it employs around 1,000 people directly and indirectly. Many businesses have been badly hit by the ISA outbreak. It affects not only direct employment, but many of the small businesses in our remote rural areas that rely on a successful salmon farming industry. MacDonald's filling station at Salen on Mull, for example, has experienced a 50 per cent drop in turnover since the outbreaks of ISA were discovered on Mull some eight or nine months ago. I would like the minister to take action on two points. The first is the policy of eradication. Annabel Goldie hit the nail on the head on that issue. We have already welcomed the minister's statement to the industry in which he said that he wanted a much more flexible approach to the eradication policy, but we need to know what the details of that are. I would emphasise that the industry needs to know quickly. Underlying the need for quick action is the fact that the salmon farming industry in Argyll and Bute believes that the Executive should abandon the policy of eradication, which it considers to be fundamentally flawed. The industry believes that we should pursue a policy similar to that in Norway and Canada where ISA is managed and controlled. The current policy of eradication means that capital assets vanish overnight when ISA is discovered in stock. That means that many businesses are wiped out, because their capital reserves suddenly drain away. There is, of course, no compensation. I believe that the policy is flawed and all the producers to whom I have spoken in my area believe that it needs to be reconsidered. The second point that I want the minister to address is the issue of insurance, which a number of people have raised. The eradication policy means that producers cannot insure against the crisis. That needs to be considered also. I ask the minister to give an undertaking that the Executive will seek to have the eradication policy changed in Europe. I also ask him to ensure that smolt and brood stock producers will qualify for the £9 million that is available under the new Highlands and Islands Enterprise scheme. Finally, I want to reinforce Tavish Scott's point on the production tax levied by the Crown Estate commissioners, which—as Tavish rightly pointed out—is equivalent to a poll tax on the salmon industry, which sees the tax as extremely unfair.", "EditedTextHTML": "I, too, welcome this debate, initiated by my colleague Tavish Scott. The salmon farming industry is important to Argyll and Bute, where it employs around 1,000 people directly and indirectly. Many businesses have been badly hit by the ISA outbreak. It affects not only direct employment, but many of the small businesses in our remote rural areas that rely on a successful salmon farming industry. MacDonald's filling station at Salen on Mull, for example, has experienced a 50 per cent drop in turnover since the outbreaks of ISA were discovered on Mull some eight or nine months ago.

I would like the minister to take action on two points. The first is the policy of eradication. Annabel Goldie hit the nail on the head on that issue. We have already welcomed the minister's statement to the industry in which he said that he wanted a much more flexible approach to the eradication policy, but we need to know what the details of that are. I would emphasise that the industry needs to know quickly.

Underlying the need for quick action is the fact that the salmon farming industry in Argyll and Bute believes that the Executive should abandon the policy of eradication, which it considers to be fundamentally flawed. The industry believes that we should pursue a policy similar to that in Norway and Canada where ISA is managed and controlled.

The current policy of eradication means that capital assets vanish overnight when ISA is discovered in stock. That means that many businesses are wiped out, because their capital reserves suddenly drain away. There is, of course, no compensation. I believe that the policy is flawed and all the producers to whom I have spoken in my area believe that it needs to be reconsidered.

The second point that I want the minister to address is the issue of insurance, which a number of people have raised. The eradication policy means that producers cannot insure against the crisis. That needs to be considered also.

I ask the minister to give an undertaking that the Executive will seek to have the eradication policy changed in Europe. I also ask him to ensure that smolt and brood stock producers will qualify for the £9 million that is available under the new Highlands and Islands Enterprise scheme. Finally, I want to reinforce Tavish Scott's point on the production tax levied by the Crown Estate commissioners, which—as Tavish rightly pointed out—is equivalent to a poll tax on the salmon industry, which sees the tax as extremely unfair.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1985E207P501C708047", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Salmon Farming", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26834, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1038.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1038.0, "ID": 26834, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hamilton, Mr Duncan", "ID": 1985, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Hamilton: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1076.0, "ContributionID": 708047, "EditedText": "I am not sure that I have time, but I will give way if I am allowed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am not sure that I have time, but I will give way if I am allowed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C708048", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Salmon Farming", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26834, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1038.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1038.0, "ID": 26834, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1078.0, "ContributionID": 708048, "EditedText": "Mr Hamilton, you have five seconds.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Hamilton, you have five seconds.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2100E64P254C708051", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Salmon Farming", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26834, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1038.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1038.0, "ID": 26834, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Home Robertson, John", "ID": 2100, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Lothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "John Home Robertson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs (Mr John Home Robertson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1085.0, "ContributionID": 708051, "EditedText": "I am grateful to the member for Shetland and to the other six members who have taken part in the debate. I do not have long to reply, but I will do my best. If I miss any specific points, I will ask the officials to write to the members concerned. It is abundantly clear from the debate that the industry is important, particularly in many fragile, remote areas of the country such as the Shetland islands; Mr Scott referred to the Skerries as an extreme example. The industry is tremendously important and has achieved much. It could achieve a lot more, and that is the way in which we would all wish to look at it. There is a need for the highest possible standards of husbandry and I know that most people in the industry acknowledge and strive to achieve that. It is important that the industry has proper regard for the environment, for wild fish and for other people who use our seas. Much has been said about the industry's needs and the case for financial support. It would be unfair, and a mistake, not to make some reference to the fact that the industry has received quite a lot of public funding over the years, and rightly so. It has received £5 million over five years—structural funds from the financial instrument for fisheries guidance—and £14 million over nine years from Highlands and Islands Enterprise and its predecessor. Very properly, it has had access to local funds, particularly in the Shetland islands, and I could add centrally funded research and development moneys—and the rest of it—to that list. Over the piece, the industry has had the benefit of quite a lot of public funding. I put that on the record as I think that it is important to do so. The debate has focused on the crisis arising from the outbreak of infectious salmon anaemia last year. That has given rise to a series of major problems for the industry and to substantial costs. That is why we responded—after protracted discussions with the industry—with last week's announcement of £9 million-worth of support through Highlands and Islands Enterprise for fish farming companies affected by ISA. That is a substantial sum of public money and it will be provided without the preconditions that were attached to the offer that was made in February. I point out for Mr McGrigor's benefit that the new offer had nothing to do with Whitehall or with the Ministry for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food; it is a Scottish Executive package, and properly so. I recognise the frustration at the time that it has taken to reach a decision, but there were good reasons. Look at the background. At the outset, industry claimed compensation for fish losses attributable to ISA. Successive Governments— and this Executive—have rejected the principle of compensation for losses arising from fish diseases. It is important to emphasise that the controls on ISA as a category 1 disease were put in place by the European Union in the interests of the industry. As someone said earlier, that has nothing to do with public health, but is to safeguard the interests of the industry. understand that some people in the industry take a different view, and that that point will be tested in the courts in due course—quite possibly in the European Court. We must await a judgment. I think that is the point that Miss Goldie was making. The previous Administration recognised the industry's plight and earlier in the year offered £9 million towards a fund if the industry would match it. In the event, the industry said that it was unable to match it. Industry then proposed that the Government should act as insurers for any ISA- related losses. We considered that proposal carefully too, but we concluded that the Government is not an insurance company and that it would not be right for us to underwrite unquantifiable risks at the taxpayer's expense.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful to the member for Shetland and to the other six members who have taken part in the debate. I do not have long to reply, but I will do my best. If I

miss any specific points, I will ask the officials to write to the members concerned.

It is abundantly clear from the debate that the industry is important, particularly in many fragile, remote areas of the country such as the Shetland islands; Mr Scott referred to the Skerries as an extreme example. The industry is tremendously important and has achieved much. It could achieve a lot more, and that is the way in which we would all wish to look at it.

There is a need for the highest possible standards of husbandry and I know that most people in the industry acknowledge and strive to achieve that. It is important that the industry has proper regard for the environment, for wild fish and for other people who use our seas.

Much has been said about the industry's needs and the case for financial support. It would be unfair, and a mistake, not to make some reference to the fact that the industry has received quite a lot of public funding over the years, and rightly so. It has received £5 million over five years—structural funds from the financial instrument for fisheries guidance—and £14 million over nine years from Highlands and Islands Enterprise and its predecessor. Very properly, it has had access to local funds, particularly in the Shetland islands, and I could add centrally funded research and development moneys—and the rest of it—to that list. Over the piece, the industry has had the benefit of quite a lot of public funding. I put that on the record as I think that it is important to do so.

The debate has focused on the crisis arising from the outbreak of infectious salmon anaemia last year. That has given rise to a series of major problems for the industry and to substantial costs. That is why we responded—after protracted discussions with the industry—with last week's announcement of £9 million-worth of support through Highlands and Islands Enterprise for fish farming companies affected by ISA. That is a substantial sum of public money and it will be provided without the preconditions that were attached to the offer that was made in February. I point out for Mr McGrigor's benefit that the new offer had nothing to do with Whitehall or with the Ministry for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food; it is a Scottish Executive package, and properly so.

I recognise the frustration at the time that it has taken to reach a decision, but there were good reasons. Look at the background. At the outset, industry claimed compensation for fish losses attributable to ISA. Successive Governments— and this Executive—have rejected the principle of compensation for losses arising from fish diseases. It is important to emphasise that the controls on ISA as a category 1 disease were put in place by the European Union in the interests of the industry. As someone said earlier, that has nothing to do with public health, but is to safeguard the interests of the industry. understand that some people in the industry take a different view, and that that point will be tested in the courts in due course—quite possibly in the European Court. We must await a judgment. I think that is the point that Miss Goldie was making.

The previous Administration recognised the industry's plight and earlier in the year offered £9 million towards a fund if the industry would match it. In the event, the industry said that it was unable to match it. Industry then proposed that the Government should act as insurers for any ISA- related losses. We considered that proposal carefully too, but we concluded that the Government is not an insurance company and that it would not be right for us to underwrite unquantifiable risks at the taxpayer's expense.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2100E64P254C708053", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Salmon Farming", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26834, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1038.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1038.0, "ID": 26834, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Home Robertson, John", "ID": 2100, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Lothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "John Home Robertson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Home Robertson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1089.0, "ContributionID": 708053, "EditedText": "I am sorry. I have not got time. There have been a lot of speeches and I have a lot to say. The Executive recognises the value and importance of the industry to the rural economy and that is why we announced last week that £9 million would be made available to Highlands and Islands Enterprise over the next three years. There will be no need for the industry to raise matching funds through a national levy, as was originally envisaged. The source of the disease is as yet unknown— there is much conjecture about it—and we may never discover where it came from. However, I would emphasise again the importance of good husbandry to minimise the risk of further outbreaks. I accept that the eradication measures have hit the industry hard.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry. I have not got time. There have been a lot of speeches and I have a lot to say.

The Executive recognises the value and importance of the industry to the rural economy and that is why we announced last week that £9 million would be made available to Highlands and Islands Enterprise over the next three years. There will be no need for the industry to raise matching funds through a national levy, as was originally envisaged.

The source of the disease is as yet unknown— there is much conjecture about it—and we may never discover where it came from. However, I would emphasise again the importance of good husbandry to minimise the risk of further outbreaks. I accept that the eradication measures have hit the industry hard.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2110E214P424C707970", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26832, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 869.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 869.0, "ID": 26832, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gibson, Kenneth", "ID": 2110, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenneth Gibson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Kenneth Gibson (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 917.0, "ContributionID": 707970, "EditedText": "Does not Mr Aitken agree that the Government's botched community care legislation, which put so many mentally handicapped people on to the streets, has also had a major effect on homelessness over the few years?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does not Mr Aitken agree that the Government's botched community care legislation, which put so many mentally handicapped people on to the streets, has also had a major effect on homelessness over the few years?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:12:28.4701587+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2110E214P424C707680", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gibson, Kenneth", "ID": 2110, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenneth Gibson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Kenneth Gibson (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 284.0, "ContributionID": 707680, "EditedText": "I am sure that most members in the chamber agree that the Tories have a bit of a brass neck to lecture this Parliament on any aspect of transport. Everyone here knows that it was their disastrous introduction of bus deregulation that brought about the precipitous decline in bus use over the last decade or more. As with the poll tax, Scotland suffered most, with a 32 per cent decline in the number of bus passenger journeys in the past decade, compared with 17 per cent for the UK as a whole. The drop in the number of passengers in the rural areas of Scotland has been twice that in urban areas—and the supposed defenders of rural Scotland caused it.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sure that most members in the chamber agree that the Tories have a bit of a brass neck to lecture this Parliament on any aspect of transport. Everyone here knows that it was their disastrous introduction of bus deregulation that brought about the precipitous decline in bus use over the last decade or more.

As with the poll tax, Scotland suffered most, with a 32 per cent decline in the number of bus passenger journeys in the past decade, compared with 17 per cent for the UK as a whole. The drop in the number of passengers in the rural areas of Scotland has been twice that in urban areas—and the supposed defenders of rural Scotland caused it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:05:19.2124205+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2110E214P424C707688", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gibson, Kenneth", "ID": 2110, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenneth Gibson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Gibson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 300.0, "ContributionID": 707688, "EditedText": "John, we have debated many a long year, but if you do not allow people to intervene, I will not allow you to intervene on me.", "EditedTextHTML": "John, we have debated many a long year, but if you do not allow people to intervene, I will not allow you to intervene on me.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:05:19.2124205+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2110E214P424C707690", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gibson, Kenneth", "ID": 2110, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenneth Gibson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Gibson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 304.0, "ContributionID": 707690, "EditedText": "I am sorry, John, I will not let you in.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry, John, I will not let you in.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:05:19.2124205+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2110E214P424C707698", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gibson, Kenneth", "ID": 2110, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenneth Gibson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Gibson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 320.0, "ContributionID": 707698, "EditedText": "In the first year of the new Labour Government, fares rose 7.9 per cent in Scotland. The decreasing confidence in bus services has led to a 28 per cent increase in car use on Scotland's roads over the last decade, causing much of the congestion that we have debated today. Most obviously, the increasing reliance on private cars has directly reduced the market for public transport. The consequence of that has been a reduction in the viability of significant parts of the public transport network. In turn, that has led to service withdrawals or reductions and to increases in fares—which increases the relative attractiveness of car ownership. The potential for a continuing cycle of decline in public transport use and provision is self-evident. Public transport must be organised and marketed in order to attract more people—particularly marginal car users—back on to it. Inter-modal ticketing is important, and we need to maintain the affordability of public transport for pensioners, disabled people and the low-paid. What has been the Executive's approach to public transport? On 13 September, the Evening Times quoted the minister, Sarah Boyack, as having said that she wanted other towns and cities to copy Glasgow's new overground bus operations: \"I expect that our forthcoming decisions on authorities' bids for public transport fund support will encourage bus operators right across Scotland to deliver similar improvements.\" If she had read the Evening Times on 9 September, only four days previously, she would have seen the headline, \"Bus firms are slammed over city services\". That article said: \"Bus firms in Glasgow have been slammed by council and transport bosses after claims that passengers are being left without a bus service.\" Alistair Watson, chair of the land services committee on Glasgow City Council was quoted as saying that Balornock, for example, is left without a bus service every night after 6 o'clock. He added that Ms Boyack might consider new rules to regulate firms, because the number of routes being abandoned by the private bus companies means that the public budget for subsidising services has already been spent. Services are thus no longer available.", "EditedTextHTML": "In the first year of the new Labour Government, fares rose 7.9 per cent in Scotland. The decreasing confidence in bus services has led to a 28 per cent increase in car use on Scotland's roads over the last decade, causing much of the congestion that we have debated today. Most obviously, the increasing reliance on private cars has directly reduced the market for public transport. The consequence of that has been a reduction in the viability of significant parts of the public transport network. In turn, that has led to service withdrawals or reductions and to increases in fares—which increases the relative attractiveness of car ownership.

The potential for a continuing cycle of decline in public transport use and provision is self-evident. Public transport must be organised and marketed in order to attract more people—particularly marginal car users—back on to it. Inter-modal ticketing is important, and we need to maintain the affordability of public transport for pensioners, disabled people and the low-paid.

What has been the Executive's approach to public transport? On 13 September, the Evening Times quoted the minister, Sarah Boyack, as having said that she wanted other towns and cities to copy Glasgow's new overground bus operations:

\"I expect that our forthcoming decisions on authorities' bids for public transport fund support will encourage bus operators right across Scotland to deliver similar improvements.\" If she had read the Evening Times on 9

September, only four days previously, she would have seen the headline, \"Bus firms are slammed over city services\". That article said:

\"Bus firms in Glasgow have been slammed by council and transport bosses after claims that passengers are being left without a bus service.\"

Alistair Watson, chair of the land services committee on Glasgow City Council was quoted as saying that Balornock, for example, is left without a bus service every night after 6 o'clock. He added that Ms Boyack might consider new rules to regulate firms, because the number of routes being abandoned by the private bus companies means that the public budget for subsidising services has already been spent. Services are thus no longer available.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:05:19.2124205+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1870E181P475C707889", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26804, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 566.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26805, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "QuestionHeading": "People's Juries", "QuestionHeadingID": 26825, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 741.0, "DisplayOrder": 741.0, "ID": 26825, "ParentID": 26805 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robison, Shona", "ID": 1870, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Shona Robison", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Shona Robison: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 744.0, "ContributionID": 707889, "EditedText": "Is the minister really saying that the vast network of community and voluntary groups with years of experience is unable to tell her what the local priorities of an area are?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is the minister really saying that the vast network of community and voluntary groups with years of experience is unable to tell her what the local priorities of an area are?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:00:28.6213377+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C708029", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26833, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 987.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 987.0, "ID": 26833, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1034.0, "ContributionID": 708029, "EditedText": "On a point of order. I have notified Mary Mulligan, the Convener of the Education, Culture and Sport Committee, of my intention to raise this point of order. This afternoon, I was given notice of a press statement issued by Mary Mulligan on behalf of the committee, which purported to clarify a committee decision in light of the convener's interpretation of certain comments made by me to the press. Prior to the statement being released, no attempt was made to check that the convener's interpretation matched my interpretation or that of other members of the committee. Is it in order for a committee convener to issue statements of that nature on behalf of the committee without—", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. I have notified Mary Mulligan, the Convener of the Education, Culture and Sport Committee, of my intention to raise this point of order.

This afternoon, I was given notice of a press statement issued by Mary Mulligan on behalf of the committee, which purported to clarify a committee decision in light of the convener's interpretation of certain comments made by me to the press. Prior to the statement being released, no attempt was made to check that the convener's interpretation matched my interpretation or that of other members of the committee. Is it in order for a committee convener to issue statements of that nature on behalf of the committee without—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:00:25.9901853+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C707759", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 453.0, "ContributionID": 707759, "EditedText": "Ms Fabiani should not believe everything that she reads in the press. If it has quotation marks around it, it is my statement.", "EditedTextHTML": "Ms Fabiani should not believe everything that she reads in the press. If it has quotation marks around it, it is my statement.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:08.9050713+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C707780", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 497.0, "ContributionID": 707780, "EditedText": "I would like to make a quick point before I start. Mr Tosh asked me to correct a typographical error in my speech notes, and I am happy to do so: the Conservative party was in power for 18 years, not 20. There were times when it felt like a lifetime—was it really only 18 years? There is consensus in the Parliament. We all want a high-quality road network and a world-class public transport system. We all recognise that we need different approaches for the urban and rural parts of Scotland. That consensus is promising. The problem is that people will not address the issues of how we will pay for transport investment and how we can tackle traffic congestion. I have spent all summer listening to Kenny MacAskill and Linda Fabiani avoid addressing the issues in our \"Tackling Congestion\" paper. Today, we finally had a ringing endorsement from them for congestion charges, even if it sounded a bit thin after the attacks during the summer. The SNP has always pretended to be all things to all voters. Linda Fabiani's support for the SNP joining the Green grouping in the European Parliament sounded hollow, particularly in the context of Kenny MacAskill's comments about opposing landfill tax. We have a problem with how we can meet our environmental commitments. We need a responsible debate on the problem. The SNP is in favour of road pricing; I am glad that SNP members have made a commitment to it today. The party supported city centre charging schemes in its 1999 manifesto.", "EditedTextHTML": "I would like to make a quick point before I start. Mr Tosh asked me to correct a typographical error in my speech notes, and I am happy to do so: the Conservative party was in power for 18 years, not 20. There were times when it felt like a lifetime—was it really only 18 years?

There is consensus in the Parliament. We all want a high-quality road network and a world-class public transport system. We all recognise that we need different approaches for the urban and rural parts of Scotland. That consensus is promising. The problem is that people will not address the issues of how we will pay for transport investment and how we can tackle traffic congestion.

I have spent all summer listening to Kenny MacAskill and Linda Fabiani avoid addressing the issues in our \"Tackling Congestion\" paper. Today, we finally had a ringing endorsement from them for congestion charges, even if it sounded a bit thin after the attacks during the summer.

The SNP has always pretended to be all things to all voters. Linda Fabiani's support for the SNP joining the Green grouping in the European Parliament sounded hollow, particularly in the context of Kenny MacAskill's comments about opposing landfill tax. We have a problem with how we can meet our environmental commitments. We need a responsible debate on the problem.

The SNP is in favour of road pricing; I am glad that SNP members have made a commitment to it today. The party supported city centre charging schemes in its 1999 manifesto.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:08.9050713+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C707787", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 511.0, "ContributionID": 707787, "EditedText": "I do. When I refer to the Opposition parties, I will do so explicitly. Thank you for that point of order, Mr Gallie. On 28 August, the SNP transport spokesperson Stewart Hosie said that there might be some arguments for motorway tolls. The SNP conference in September 1998 endorsed a motion that recognised that certain car pricing schemes might provide the revenue needed to develop alternatives—the conference supported focused road pricing to help develop public transport alternatives. Those comments were welcome, and I welcome the SNP to the serious debate about congestion in our cities. Despite those policies, the SNP is also in favour of increasing income tax. We have one of the lowest rates of income tax in Europe and one of the lowest rates of corporation tax. Money for investment in transport has to come from somewhere. Earlier this year, Alasdair Morgan, during the 24 hours for which he was the SNP's transport spokesperson, said that he wanted an extra 1p on income tax to go towards investment in roads. That statement was withdrawn within 24 hours. The SNP has not had a consistent or coherent approach to transport investment in Scotland. I will be interested to find out whether the SNP will support the Conservative party's motion, which is a thoroughly confused one. It welcomes the Scottish Executive's commitment to reducing vehicle emissions, yet does not say how that could be achieved. John Young asked us to set the rest of the world an example. That is the point of the Executive's policy. The Tories recognise the importance to Scotland of our transport links by road, rail, sea and air, but abdicate all responsibility to the UK Government. The point of having a Scottish Parliament is that we should be able to make choices about where to invest the money that we receive in the block grant. As David McLetchie said, the Tories propose a unionist transport approach. Scotland deserves better. We need to set our transport policies in Scotland, while playing a full part in the UK. The Tories promise new investment without the slightest idea of how they will pay for it. They promised the M74 contract; we have committed £25 million a year to it for the next 30 years. We are paying for investment in the road system and in public transport. Our new public transport fund and our new rural transport fund are further evidence of our commitment to invest in transport. The Tories promise more money for maintenance, but cut maintenance spend to unprecedentedly low levels when they were in power. Roads are important for cars, buses and lorries and they should be a key part of any transport strategy for Scotland. We have embarked on a major consultation on road charging. I want an opportunity to reflect on all the views received when the consultation process ends in two weeks. I encourage both the Opposition parties to respond. I would like the detailed comments that they have made today to be on paper, so that they can be properly considered. I have set up a sub-committee of the national transport forum, which is not a group of yes-men. It is made up of people, some of whom support our policies and some of whom have reservations, who will draw together the comments that have been submitted so that we can take forward a policy that people will support. This Government is determined to build an integrated transport system that meets Scotland's economic and social needs but does not threaten our health or our environment. That will require innovative solutions. During the summer, I talked to the Confederation of British Industry, the Road Haulage Association, the Automobile Association, the Royal Automobile Club and many local authorities to work out ways in which we can work in partnership and build consensus. I am happy to take on board Kenny Gibson's comments about social inclusion and buses. Our objective in bringing forward an integrated transport bill with legislation on buses is to address frequency, timetables, through-ticketing, access and the quality of buses. There are good examples of partnerships in action, but we must broaden them and give local authorities a statutory basis for working with transport operators. That is what is critical about our policy, and we hope to work with people to deliver it. It will require commitment from central and local government. We have to tackle our inherited transport problems of under-investment, a second-class public transport system and polluted cities. Those will be our priorities. We need to recognise the diversity of Scotland. I appreciated listening to the speeches by Jamie McGrigor, Euan Robson, David Mundell and John Munro. They are right to call for an integrated approach in rural areas. It is important that we acknowledge that most people in rural areas need to use their cars. That is why we have supported rural petrol stations and why I am anticipating the second Office of Fair Trading report on fuel pricing. We want to reflect on those matters. I have been talking with councils in the Highlands and Islands, Argyll and Bute and the Western Isles. We need to work together, using our rural transport fund, to deliver for people in rural areas. However, it must be an integrated approach, and I welcome the comments about coastal shipping and transporting timber. I have been working with John Home Robertson on our review of the freight facilities grant, to see whether it can be extended to shipping. Those are important issues that we will reflect on as the Executive. Scottish ministers, the Parliament, local authorities, regional partnerships, transport operators, voluntary groups and the UK Government must all work together in partnership. It is about balance, not about focusing on the needs of one group of transport users. Mr McLetchie, we do not see motorists as being a separate group in society. Motorists use a whole range of public services. We need to take their views into account as much as those of anyone else. We want an integrated approach to our road, rail and bus networks, which tackles local problems, including local congestion. That is a broad approach. It is a transport policy that embraces rather than excludes, offers people choice where there is no choice at present, and seeks to protect our environment while ensuring economic prosperity and social inclusion. I move amendment S1M-151.2, to leave out from ‘expresses concern' to end and insert: ‘commends the efforts the Scottish Executive is making to tackle the consequences of eighteen years of Conservative transport policies and reverse the resulting legacy of under investment, rising congestion and environmental degradation, and calls upon the Scottish Executive to continue to work to deliver a sustainable, effective and integrated transport system through in particular the Programme of Government commitments on investing in public transport, promoting a national transport timetable and bringing forward a Transport Bill in early 2000 whilst reflecting the diverse transport needs of all Scotland's people, in particular those living in rural area, and by so doing to take the decisions required to deliver, working with others, an integrated transport system fit for the 21st century.'", "EditedTextHTML": "I do. When I refer to the Opposition parties, I will do so explicitly. Thank you for that point of order, Mr Gallie.

On 28 August, the SNP transport spokesperson Stewart Hosie said that there might be some arguments for motorway tolls. The SNP conference in September 1998 endorsed a motion that recognised that certain car pricing schemes might provide the revenue needed to develop alternatives—the conference supported focused road pricing to help develop public transport alternatives. Those comments were welcome, and

I welcome the SNP to the serious debate about congestion in our cities.

Despite those policies, the SNP is also in favour of increasing income tax. We have one of the lowest rates of income tax in Europe and one of the lowest rates of corporation tax. Money for investment in transport has to come from somewhere. Earlier this year, Alasdair Morgan, during the 24 hours for which he was the SNP's transport spokesperson, said that he wanted an extra 1p on income tax to go towards investment in roads. That statement was withdrawn within 24 hours.

The SNP has not had a consistent or coherent approach to transport investment in Scotland. I will be interested to find out whether the SNP will support the Conservative party's motion, which is a thoroughly confused one. It welcomes the Scottish Executive's commitment to reducing vehicle emissions, yet does not say how that could be achieved. John Young asked us to set the rest of the world an example. That is the point of the Executive's policy.

The Tories recognise the importance to Scotland of our transport links by road, rail, sea and air, but abdicate all responsibility to the UK Government. The point of having a Scottish Parliament is that we should be able to make choices about where to invest the money that we receive in the block grant. As David McLetchie said, the Tories propose a unionist transport approach. Scotland deserves better. We need to set our transport policies in Scotland, while playing a full part in the UK.

The Tories promise new investment without the slightest idea of how they will pay for it. They promised the M74 contract; we have committed £25 million a year to it for the next 30 years. We are paying for investment in the road system and in public transport. Our new public transport fund and our new rural transport fund are further evidence of our commitment to invest in transport.

The Tories promise more money for maintenance, but cut maintenance spend to unprecedentedly low levels when they were in power. Roads are important for cars, buses and lorries and they should be a key part of any transport strategy for Scotland.

We have embarked on a major consultation on road charging. I want an opportunity to reflect on all the views received when the consultation process ends in two weeks. I encourage both the Opposition parties to respond. I would like the detailed comments that they have made today to be on paper, so that they can be properly considered. I have set up a sub-committee of the national transport forum, which is not a group of yes-men. It is made up of people, some of whom

support our policies and some of whom have reservations, who will draw together the comments that have been submitted so that we can take forward a policy that people will support.

This Government is determined to build an integrated transport system that meets Scotland's economic and social needs but does not threaten our health or our environment. That will require innovative solutions. During the summer, I talked to the Confederation of British Industry, the Road Haulage Association, the Automobile Association, the Royal Automobile Club and many local authorities to work out ways in which we can work in partnership and build consensus.

I am happy to take on board Kenny Gibson's comments about social inclusion and buses. Our objective in bringing forward an integrated transport bill with legislation on buses is to address frequency, timetables, through-ticketing, access and the quality of buses. There are good examples of partnerships in action, but we must broaden them and give local authorities a statutory basis for working with transport operators.

That is what is critical about our policy, and we hope to work with people to deliver it. It will require commitment from central and local government. We have to tackle our inherited transport problems of under-investment, a second-class public transport system and polluted cities. Those will be our priorities.

We need to recognise the diversity of Scotland. I appreciated listening to the speeches by Jamie McGrigor, Euan Robson, David Mundell and John Munro. They are right to call for an integrated approach in rural areas. It is important that we acknowledge that most people in rural areas need to use their cars. That is why we have supported rural petrol stations and why I am anticipating the second Office of Fair Trading report on fuel pricing. We want to reflect on those matters.

I have been talking with councils in the Highlands and Islands, Argyll and Bute and the Western Isles. We need to work together, using our rural transport fund, to deliver for people in rural areas. However, it must be an integrated approach, and I welcome the comments about coastal shipping and transporting timber. I have been working with John Home Robertson on our review of the freight facilities grant, to see whether it can be extended to shipping. Those are important issues that we will reflect on as the

Executive. Scottish ministers, the Parliament, local authorities, regional partnerships, transport operators, voluntary groups and the UK

Government must all work together in partnership. It is about balance, not about focusing on the needs of one group of transport users.

Mr McLetchie, we do not see motorists as being a separate group in society. Motorists use a whole range of public services. We need to take their views into account as much as those of anyone else. We want an integrated approach to our road, rail and bus networks, which tackles local problems, including local congestion. That is a broad approach. It is a transport policy that embraces rather than excludes, offers people choice where there is no choice at present, and seeks to protect our environment while ensuring economic prosperity and social inclusion.

I move amendment S1M-151.2, to leave out from ‘expresses concern' to end and insert:

‘commends the efforts the Scottish Executive is making to tackle the consequences of eighteen years of Conservative transport policies and reverse the resulting legacy of under investment, rising congestion and environmental degradation, and calls upon the Scottish Executive to continue to work to deliver a sustainable, effective and integrated transport system through in particular the Programme of Government commitments on investing in public transport, promoting a national transport timetable and bringing forward a Transport Bill in early 2000 whilst reflecting the diverse transport needs of all Scotland's people, in particular those living in rural area, and by so doing to take the decisions required to deliver, working with others, an integrated transport system fit for the 21st century.'

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:08.9050713+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C707917", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Water Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26831, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 803.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 803.0, "ID": 26831, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment (Sarah Boyack): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 807.0, "ContributionID": 707917, "EditedText": "The purpose of this statement is to announce the appointment of the first water industry commissioner for Scotland, but I would also like to take this opportunity to set out the new regulatory arrangements for the Scottish water industry and the commissioner's vital place in the new framework. The new regulatory arrangements were announced by the Scottish Executive in July, but so far there has not been an opportunity for Parliament to discuss them. The water industry is a vital part of our lives, yet it is almost invisible to most of us, most of the time. Clean, safe drinking water, and efficient, environmentally friendly removal of waste are essential for our survival, yet we take those services for granted—we expect safe water to come from the tap whenever we need it, and waste to be removed with no apparent effort. However, much of the basic infrastructure on which we rely, both for drinking water and for sewage, was put in place in the Victorian era. It has served us well, but decades of under- investment mean that much of it needs to be replaced soon. That is the backdrop against which new challenges must be faced. The Scottish water industry faces twin challenges: to meet the aspirations of the Scottish people in terms of environmental standards and drinking water quality, and to do so at minimum cost to the customer. The water industry has a central role to play in our ambitions for sustainable development in Scotland. That is reflected in the Executive's programme of government, in which no less than three of the key environmental commitments will be delivered through the Scottish water authorities: improving standards of urban waste water treatment by the end of 2000; bringing Scotland's designated bathing beaches up to European standards; and investing to raise the quality of Scotland's drinking water. The challenge that is posed by those commitments should not be underestimated. It involves an unprecedented investment programme of around £1.7 billion over three years, and significant further investment will be needed beyond that. The industry has to work to long time scales, a fact that increases the importance to the authorities of being able to plan for the medium term with some certainty. Investment is needed to meet our European obligations, which cannot and should not be evaded. Most prominent among them are the urban waste water treatment directive, the main provisions of which take effect at the end of next year, and the drinking water directive, for which the main deadline is 2003. More important, investment is needed to protect and improve the quality of our rivers, coasts and beaches, and to ensure that the water that we drink meets the highest public health standards. The second part of the challenge is to achieve those objectives and deliver the investment programme at the least cost to customers. The water industry's activities can be financed only from charges to customers and by borrowing, which has to be repaid. Scotland's water services are firmly in the public sector and that is where they will stay, because the people of Scotland have made it clear that that is what they want. Our three water authorities are accountable to the Executive, and through the Executive to the Parliament, for their performance. The coming of the Scottish Parliament strengthens the direct chain of accountability between the authorities, democratically elected representatives and customers. We must demonstrate that our Scottish approach can also deliver on efficiency and customer service. We need a regulatory regime for the Scottish water industry that provides the best framework for meeting this environmental and public health challenge at the minimum cost to the consumer. I am confident that the arrangements that will come into effect on 1 November provide such a framework. The Water Industry Act 1999, which became law in June this year, included provisions for reform of the regulatory system in Scotland, including the establishment of an independent water industry commissioner. Because devolution was about to take effect, our predecessors deliberately drafted the legislation in a way that left it to the new Scottish Executive to decide whether to implement the new system. Having considered carefully the present system, we had little hesitation in agreeing that there was an urgent need for change. Customers deserve a system that ensures that their interests will come first and that they will get the highest-quality services at the best price. The water authorities need a system that gives them clarity and certainty, so that they can plan and manage their operations as efficiently as possible. The Scottish Executive's three roles in relation to the water industry are as owner, environmental and public health regulator, and efficiency regulator. In addition, the regime that we inherited involves a completely artificial division between the Scottish Executive—as efficiency regulator— and the customers council, which has primary responsibility for agreeing water charges, looking only one year ahead. It is difficult to carry out that function without a full appreciation of the scope for efficiency gains in the water authorities and the investment programmes that the authorities need to implement. Before devolution, ministers carried out a wide- ranging review of the water industry and concluded that it was essential to bring together the strands of economic regulation and price setting. The new regulatory regime will remove that artificial divide and, by bringing efficiency regulation under the responsibility of the new water industry commissioner, will distinguish more clearly between the roles played by the Scottish Executive. A crucial feature of the commissioner's remit will be his professional scrutiny of the water authorities' finances. The water industry commissioner is at the centre of the new approach. His overriding duty is to promote the interest of all water customers. There is no conflict between his two roles of economic regulation and customer protection—those are the functions that come under the term economic regulation. His role—to examine closely the authorities' finances, to question and challenge their costs, and to encourage them to be as efficient as possible—is at the heart of customers' interests. We believe that that role should be carried out with rigour, transparency and clear independence from Government. That will reassure customers that the water authorities' finances are subject to independent, expert scrutiny and will enable them to see that the charges they pay are being kept as low as possible. Alongside those new responsibilities, the commissioner will take over the Scottish water and sewerage customers council's current roles, including investigating unresolved customer complaints and approving the authorities' codes of practice. We are grateful to the members and staff of the council for their work and their commitment over the years to protect the interests of customers. I am confident that the commissioner will inherit firm foundations, which have been laid by the council. The commissioner also needs to know about customers' concerns on a regional or even local basis. That is why there will be three local consultative committees to support the commissioner and advise him on the interests of customers. The commissioner will chair those committees, ensuring that their advice is at the heart of the regulatory process. The new regime will also change the way in which the Scottish Executive plays its role of environmental regulator. The commissioner's job will be to provide expert economic analysis and advice, but it is not his job to decide which areas of the water authorities' plans and operations are essential or optional. Those are issues for ministers, who are responsible for defining the standards of water quality and environmental protection that must be met by the water authorities. Most of those standards flow from European commitments, while others reflect the Government's own priorities for the industry. Therefore, the Scottish Executive will give the commissioner a statement defining the standards that must be met by the water authorities. The commissioner will still be able to challenge the cost of the work associated with those standards, but he will not be able to question the need for that work. We shall publish that statement at the same time as we send it to the commissioner. It will be an important new step. For the first time, Government will set out clearly in one place the standards that it requires the water authorities to meet. For the first version of the paper, we plan to bring together the standards that have already been set and the broad implications for the investment requirements of the water authorities. However, the document is not the end of the story. It marks the beginning of a continuous and transparent process in which, as we strive for improved environmental standards, we will be able to assess and provide for the resources needed to deliver those standards. It means that the commitments that we make will be achievable as well as challenging. The quality and standards paper and a broader guidance document on the conduct of the charging process will form the essential framework within which the commissioner and the water authorities will operate. Within that framework, the commissioner will advise ministers on the charge levels necessary to enable the authorities to meet the environmental and water quality standards that have been set. In effect, the commissioner will recommend to ministers the level of a charge cap, which normally will be for a period of several years. Ministers will consider the commissioner's expert advice and decide whether to endorse his recommendations. They will then finally set the charge cap. We are committed to ensuring that that process has maximum transparency. There will be no question of the commissioner's professional expertise being compromised or influenced by ministers. The legislation guarantees that all stages of the process, including both the commissioner's advice and ministers' decisions, will be made public. That demonstrates our commitment to a process that is rigorous and open, and our commitment to avoiding shorttermism. Once ministers have decided on the level of the charge cap each year, the commissioner and the water authorities will agree, or if necessary refer to ministers, the individual charges for services. The water authorities' annual charge schemes will have to fit within the charge cap that ministers have set. Our basic principles will be quality, efficiency, transparency and accountability. The water authorities have a key role in cleaning up our beaches and rivers, and in using water in a sustainable way. However, success in meeting those broader objectives will depend on partnership, not only between the Scottish Executive, the new commissioner and the water authorities, but with local authorities, industry and us as individuals. Local authorities have a key role in the planning and provision of amenities. Industry and the farming community can minimise waste and water pollution through improved practices. All of us can use water resources more responsibly. The Scottish Executive will work to encourage that partnership approach. I take this opportunity to give an example of the partnership approach in action. I have intervened to defer for a year the increases in water charges facing some charities and voluntary organisations. Last year, the water authorities and the customers council agreed to begin withdrawing relief from charges that is currently granted to a range of bodies. As a result, those bodies faced higher water bills this year. Soon after I took office, the Scottish Council for Voluntary Organisations made representations to me that the charitable and voluntary bodies facing higher bills had not been given enough warning about the increases. As those bodies typically operate on fixed, annual grants, it was becoming clear that the money to pay for the increased water bills might have to be found by reducing front-line services. Given the importance that the Executive places on the voluntary sector's contribution to Scottish life, I was concerned by that, and agreed to investigate. Although the average increase in bills is small and the water authorities were acting quite properly in trying to ensure fair treatment for all their charge payers, I agree with the SCVO that the organisations that were faced with higher bills needed more time to budget for them. Therefore, I have arranged with the water authorities that they will immediately restore in full relief for the current year. The SCVO will welcome that breathing space for its members. It understands the argument that its members should pay for the services that they receive, but deferring the withdrawal of relief until 1 April 2000 satisfies its main concern. I am pleased to say that there is further protection for the sector, in that the full charges will not come on stream for five years. We had no doubt that it should be a priority to put the new regulatory regime in place as soon as possible. We have decided to implement the new regulatory arrangements from 1 November. That means that benefits can begin to feed through to customers and the water authorities from the water charges settlement for the next financial year. If we had not made that decision, the annual nature of the charging round means that the new regime would have had no impact until April 2001. We announced that decision promptly, in July, because we needed to move quickly to identify and appoint a suitable person as the first water industry commissioner, in time for 1 November. We were determined to ensure that the appointment process complied fully with the rigorous principles that are required by the commissioner for public appointments. The demanding and important new position of water industry commissioner needs someone with the right blend of special skills, experience and personal qualities. I am delighted to announce to the Parliament that we have found such a person, and that we plan to appoint Alan Sutherland as water industry commissioner from 1 November. Mr Sutherland has relevant expertise and experience. He studied economics, and has wide experience in banking and in management consultancy. He also has direct experience of establishing and managing a customer-focused company in challenging circumstances. I am convinced that Mr Sutherland has a firm commitment to ensuring the highest levels of service and value for customers. He also understands clearly the business and economic issues that confront the water industry. I have no doubt that his experience and talents make him well suited to the post of water industry commissioner. Our new regime will involve a powerful new watchdog for customer interests, equipped to ensure that prices are no higher than required to meet our environmental and public health objectives. There will be a longer planning horizon, through a multi-year cap on charges, giving greater stability for customers and water authorities. The system will be much more transparent, with a clearer division between the Executive's roles as owner, economic regulator and setter of environmental standards. It will be a regulatory regime under which Scotland's public water industry can become a world leader in customer service and efficiency.I am happy to take questions from members.", "EditedTextHTML": "The purpose of this statement is to announce the appointment of the first water industry commissioner for Scotland, but I would also like to take this opportunity to set out the new regulatory arrangements for the Scottish water industry and the commissioner's vital place in the new framework. The new regulatory arrangements were announced by the Scottish Executive in July, but so far there has not been an opportunity for Parliament to discuss them.

The water industry is a vital part of our lives, yet it is almost invisible to most of us, most of the time. Clean, safe drinking water, and efficient, environmentally friendly removal of waste are essential for our survival, yet we take those services for granted—we expect safe water to come from the tap whenever we need it, and waste to be removed with no apparent effort. However, much of the basic infrastructure on which we rely, both for drinking water and for sewage, was put in place in the Victorian era. It has served us well, but decades of under- investment mean that much of it needs to be replaced soon. That is the backdrop against which new challenges must be faced.

The Scottish water industry faces twin challenges: to meet the aspirations of the Scottish people in terms of environmental standards and drinking water quality, and to do so at minimum cost to the customer.

The water industry has a central role to play in our ambitions for sustainable development in Scotland. That is reflected in the Executive's programme of government, in which no less than three of the key environmental commitments will be delivered through the Scottish water authorities: improving standards of urban waste water treatment by the end of 2000; bringing Scotland's designated bathing beaches up to European standards; and investing to raise the quality of Scotland's drinking water.

The challenge that is posed by those commitments should not be underestimated. It involves an unprecedented investment programme of around £1.7 billion over three years, and significant further investment will be needed beyond that. The industry has to work to long time scales, a fact that increases the importance to the authorities of being able to plan for the medium term with some certainty.

Investment is needed to meet our European obligations, which cannot and should not be evaded. Most prominent among them are the urban waste water treatment directive, the main provisions of which take effect at the end of next year, and the drinking water directive, for which the main deadline is 2003. More important, investment is needed to protect and improve the quality of our rivers, coasts and beaches, and to ensure that the water that we drink meets the highest public health standards.

The second part of the challenge is to achieve those objectives and deliver the investment programme at the least cost to customers. The water industry's activities can be financed only from charges to customers and by borrowing, which has to be repaid. Scotland's water services are firmly in the public sector and that is where they will stay, because the people of Scotland have made it clear that that is what they want. Our three water authorities are accountable to the Executive, and through the Executive to the Parliament, for their performance.

The coming of the Scottish Parliament strengthens the direct chain of accountability between the authorities, democratically elected representatives and customers. We must demonstrate that our Scottish approach can also deliver on efficiency and customer service. We need a regulatory regime for the Scottish water industry that provides the best framework for meeting this environmental and public health challenge at the minimum cost to the consumer. I am confident that the arrangements that will come into effect on 1 November provide such a framework.

The Water Industry Act 1999, which became law in June this year, included provisions for reform of the regulatory system in Scotland, including the establishment of an independent water industry commissioner. Because devolution was about to take effect, our predecessors deliberately drafted the legislation in a way that left it to the new Scottish Executive to decide whether to implement the new system.

Having considered carefully the present system, we had little hesitation in agreeing that there was an urgent need for change. Customers deserve a system that ensures that their interests will come first and that they will get the highest-quality services at the best price.

The water authorities need a system that gives them clarity and certainty, so that they can plan and manage their operations as efficiently as possible.

The Scottish Executive's three roles in relation to the water industry are as owner, environmental and public health regulator, and efficiency regulator. In addition, the regime that we inherited involves a completely artificial division between the Scottish Executive—as efficiency regulator— and the customers council, which has primary responsibility for agreeing water charges, looking only one year ahead. It is difficult to carry out that function without a full appreciation of the scope for efficiency gains in the water authorities and the investment programmes that the authorities need to implement.

Before devolution, ministers carried out a wide- ranging review of the water industry and concluded that it was essential to bring together the strands of economic regulation and price setting. The new regulatory regime will remove that artificial divide and, by bringing efficiency regulation under the responsibility of the new water industry commissioner, will distinguish more clearly between the roles played by the Scottish Executive. A crucial feature of the commissioner's remit will be his professional scrutiny of the water authorities' finances.

The water industry commissioner is at the centre of the new approach. His overriding duty is to promote the interest of all water customers. There is no conflict between his two roles of economic regulation and customer protection—those are the functions that come under the term economic regulation. His role—to examine closely the authorities' finances, to question and challenge their costs, and to encourage them to be as efficient as possible—is at the heart of customers' interests.

We believe that that role should be carried out with rigour, transparency and clear independence from Government. That will reassure customers that the water authorities' finances are subject to independent, expert scrutiny and will enable them to see that the charges they pay are being kept as low as possible.

Alongside those new responsibilities, the commissioner will take over the Scottish water and sewerage customers council's current roles, including investigating unresolved customer complaints and approving the authorities' codes of practice. We are grateful to the members and staff of the council for their work and their commitment over the years to protect the interests of customers. I am confident that the commissioner will inherit firm foundations, which have been laid by the council.

The commissioner also needs to know about customers' concerns on a regional or even local basis. That is why there will be three local consultative committees to support the commissioner and advise him on the interests of customers. The commissioner will chair those committees, ensuring that their advice is at the heart of the regulatory process.

The new regime will also change the way in which the Scottish Executive plays its role of environmental regulator. The commissioner's job will be to provide expert economic analysis and advice, but it is not his job to decide which areas of the water authorities' plans and operations are essential or optional. Those are issues for ministers, who are responsible for defining the standards of water quality and environmental protection that must be met by the water authorities. Most of those standards flow from European commitments, while others reflect the Government's own priorities for the industry.

Therefore, the Scottish Executive will give the commissioner a statement defining the standards that must be met by the water authorities. The commissioner will still be able to challenge the cost of the work associated with those standards, but he will not be able to question the need for that work. We shall publish that statement at the same time as we send it to the commissioner. It will be an important new step. For the first time, Government will set out clearly in one place the standards that it requires the water authorities to meet. For the first version of the paper, we plan to bring together the standards that have already been set and the broad implications for the investment requirements of the water authorities.

However, the document is not the end of the story. It marks the beginning of a continuous and transparent process in which, as we strive for improved environmental standards, we will be able to assess and provide for the resources needed to deliver those standards. It means that the commitments that we make will be achievable as well as challenging.

The quality and standards paper and a broader guidance document on the conduct of the charging process will form the essential framework within which the commissioner and the water authorities will operate. Within that framework, the commissioner will advise ministers on the charge levels necessary to enable the authorities to meet the environmental and water quality standards that have been set. In effect, the commissioner will recommend to ministers the level of a charge cap, which normally will be for a period of several years. Ministers will consider the commissioner's expert advice and decide whether to endorse his recommendations. They will then finally set the charge cap.

We are committed to ensuring that that process has maximum transparency. There will be no question of the commissioner's professional expertise being compromised or influenced by ministers. The legislation guarantees that all

stages of the process, including both the commissioner's advice and ministers' decisions, will be made public. That demonstrates our commitment to a process that is rigorous and open, and our commitment to avoiding shorttermism.

Once ministers have decided on the level of the charge cap each year, the commissioner and the water authorities will agree, or if necessary refer to ministers, the individual charges for services. The water authorities' annual charge schemes will have to fit within the charge cap that ministers have set.

Our basic principles will be quality, efficiency, transparency and accountability. The water authorities have a key role in cleaning up our beaches and rivers, and in using water in a sustainable way. However, success in meeting those broader objectives will depend on partnership, not only between the Scottish Executive, the new commissioner and the water authorities, but with local authorities, industry and us as individuals. Local authorities have a key role in the planning and provision of amenities. Industry and the farming community can minimise waste and water pollution through improved practices. All of us can use water resources more responsibly. The Scottish Executive will work to encourage that partnership approach.

I take this opportunity to give an example of the partnership approach in action. I have intervened to defer for a year the increases in water charges facing some charities and voluntary organisations. Last year, the water authorities and the customers council agreed to begin withdrawing relief from charges that is currently granted to a range of bodies. As a result, those bodies faced higher water bills this year.

Soon after I took office, the Scottish Council for Voluntary Organisations made representations to me that the charitable and voluntary bodies facing higher bills had not been given enough warning about the increases. As those bodies typically operate on fixed, annual grants, it was becoming clear that the money to pay for the increased water bills might have to be found by reducing front-line services. Given the importance that the Executive places on the voluntary sector's contribution to Scottish life, I was concerned by that, and agreed to investigate.

Although the average increase in bills is small and the water authorities were acting quite properly in trying to ensure fair treatment for all their charge payers, I agree with the SCVO that the organisations that were faced with higher bills needed more time to budget for them. Therefore, I have arranged with the water authorities that they will immediately restore in full relief for the current year. The SCVO will welcome that breathing space for its members. It understands the argument that its members should pay for the services that they receive, but deferring the withdrawal of relief until 1 April 2000 satisfies its main concern. I am pleased to say that there is further protection for the sector, in that the full charges will not come on stream for five years.

We had no doubt that it should be a priority to put the new regulatory regime in place as soon as possible. We have decided to implement the new regulatory arrangements from 1 November. That means that benefits can begin to feed through to customers and the water authorities from the water charges settlement for the next financial year. If we had not made that decision, the annual nature of the charging round means that the new regime would have had no impact until April 2001.

We announced that decision promptly, in July, because we needed to move quickly to identify and appoint a suitable person as the first water industry commissioner, in time for 1 November. We were determined to ensure that the appointment process complied fully with the rigorous principles that are required by the commissioner for public appointments.

The demanding and important new position of water industry commissioner needs someone with the right blend of special skills, experience and personal qualities. I am delighted to announce to the Parliament that we have found such a person, and that we plan to appoint Alan Sutherland as water industry commissioner from 1 November.

Mr Sutherland has relevant expertise and experience. He studied economics, and has wide experience in banking and in management consultancy. He also has direct experience of establishing and managing a customer-focused company in challenging circumstances. I am convinced that Mr Sutherland has a firm commitment to ensuring the highest levels of service and value for customers. He also understands clearly the business and economic issues that confront the water industry. I have no doubt that his experience and talents make him well suited to the post of water industry commissioner.

Our new regime will involve a powerful new watchdog for customer interests, equipped to ensure that prices are no higher than required to meet our environmental and public health objectives. There will be a longer planning horizon, through a multi-year cap on charges, giving greater stability for customers and water authorities. The system will be much more transparent, with a clearer division between the Executive's roles as owner, economic regulator and setter of environmental standards. It will be a regulatory regime under which Scotland's public water industry can become a world leader in

customer service and efficiency.

I am happy to take questions from members.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:08.9207112+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C707924", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Water Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26831, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 803.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 803.0, "ID": 26831, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 821.0, "ContributionID": 707924, "EditedText": "That last comment was very helpful. Committees will appointed in the same way as before. Their membership will be made public so that everyone can know who is on them. Their purpose will be to feed through the interests of the customer, just as they do at the moment. The difference will be that the water industry commissioner will have direct access to the views of those people. That is a matter on which the Executive can report back to the Parliament. We will have to review the way in which the process operates. I acknowledge the concerns that Mr Lochhead and Miss Goldie have expressed. This is a new system and I hope that it will work effectively, but we will monitor the process.", "EditedTextHTML": "That last comment was very helpful.

Committees will appointed in the same way as before. Their membership will be made public so that everyone can know who is on them. Their purpose will be to feed through the interests of the customer, just as they do at the moment. The difference will be that the water industry commissioner will have direct access to the views of those people. That is a matter on which the Executive can report back to the Parliament. We will have to review the way in which the process operates.

I acknowledge the concerns that Mr Lochhead and Miss Goldie have expressed. This is a new system and I hope that it will work effectively, but we will monitor the process.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:08.9207112+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C707931", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Water Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26831, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 803.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 803.0, "ID": 26831, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 835.0, "ContributionID": 707931, "EditedText": "I am happy to reassure Mr McNulty that the process that we have established today should ensure accountability and transparency in our public water authorities. The Scottish Executive will set the framework through its paper on quality and standards. The paper will inform the water authorities, via the water industry commissioner, of the standards that we hope they will meet. We want a dynamic public sector water industry that can learn from the private sector, because there are many ways in which the water industry will be able to develop over time. The critical thing is that it will be accountable through Parliament—I appoint the water industry commissioner—and through local forums to the customers. Their views will be heard through the water industry commissioner. Local water authorities will still be appointed by ministers and there will be opportunities for local involvement at that level as well, as there was in the most recent round of appointments.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am happy to reassure Mr McNulty that the process that we have established today should ensure accountability and transparency in our public water authorities. The Scottish Executive will set the framework through its paper on quality and standards. The paper will inform the water authorities, via the water industry commissioner, of the standards that we hope they will meet.

We want a dynamic public sector water industry that can learn from the private sector, because there are many ways in which the water industry will be able to develop over time. The critical thing is that it will be accountable through Parliament—I appoint the water industry commissioner—and through local forums to the customers. Their views will be heard through the water industry commissioner. Local water authorities will still be appointed by ministers and there will be opportunities for local involvement at that level as well, as there was in the most recent round of appointments.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:08.9207112+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C707933", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Water Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26831, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 803.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 803.0, "ID": 26831, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 839.0, "ContributionID": 707933, "EditedText": "The approach that we have taken acknowledges that the water authorities are in the public sector. They are not accountable to shareholders; they are accountable to their charge payers and their customers. We make that distinction. I hope that the system will be transparent and that people will be able to see the process by which the water industry commissioner regulates the three water authorities. The Parliament will be able to monitor that over time. I am confident that our system will deliver transparency and accountability.", "EditedTextHTML": "The approach that we have taken acknowledges that the water authorities are in the public sector. They are not accountable to shareholders; they are accountable to their charge payers and their customers. We make that distinction. I hope that the system will be transparent and that people will be able to see the process by which the water industry commissioner regulates the three water authorities. The Parliament will be able to monitor that over time. I am confident that our system will deliver transparency and accountability.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:08.9207112+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C707939", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Water Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26831, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 803.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 803.0, "ID": 26831, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 851.0, "ContributionID": 707939, "EditedText": "There were 20 applications for the post. As the appointment was made according to the Nolan requirements, I cannot tell Mr Harper how many people were shortlisted. However, if he is keen to know, I can provide that information in writing afterwards.", "EditedTextHTML": "There were 20 applications for the post. As the appointment was made according to the Nolan requirements, I cannot tell Mr Harper how many people were shortlisted. However, if he is keen to know, I can provide that information in writing afterwards.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:08.9207112+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C707943", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Water Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26831, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 803.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 803.0, "ID": 26831, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 859.0, "ContributionID": 707943, "EditedText": "The water industry commissioner's starting salary will be £67,500 a year. The commissioner's staff costs will come to £1 million, which is broadly the same as existing arrangements.", "EditedTextHTML": "The water industry commissioner's starting salary will be £67,500 a year. The commissioner's staff costs will come to £1 million, which is broadly the same as existing arrangements.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:08.9207112+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C707947", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Water Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26831, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 803.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 803.0, "ID": 26831, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 867.0, "ContributionID": 707947, "EditedText": "The water industry commissioner's regime will ensure appropriate investment to meet environmental standards in each water authority area, that charges are reasonable and that water authorities carry out their job as efficiently as possible. However, we have not established a regime in the way that Mr Tosh suggests. I am sure we all accept that it is much more difficult to provide water and sewerage facilities in the northern part of Scotland. That reflects the point Mr Ewing made. I visited some of those areas in the summer. They are very spread out and provide a challenge for the water authorities. We must bear that in mind when setting standards for the authorities in the coming years.", "EditedTextHTML": "The water industry commissioner's regime will ensure appropriate investment to meet environmental standards in each water authority area, that charges are reasonable and that water authorities carry out their job as efficiently as possible. However, we have not established a regime in the way that Mr Tosh suggests.

I am sure we all accept that it is much more difficult to provide water and sewerage facilities in the northern part of Scotland. That reflects the point Mr Ewing made. I visited some of those areas in the summer. They are very spread out and provide a challenge for the water authorities. We must bear that in mind when setting standards for the authorities in the coming years.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:08.9207112+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2180E179P471C708036", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Salmon Farming", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26834, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1038.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1038.0, "ID": 26834, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lochhead, Richard", "ID": 2180, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Lochhead", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Richard Lochhead (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1049.0, "ContributionID": 708036, "EditedText": "I will be brief as I appreciate that many local members want to make a speech. I congratulate Tavish on his motion and on bringing the subject before Parliament. The motion reminds us of the important contribution that salmon farming makes to the Scottish economy. The industry sustains more than 6,000 jobs in fragile communities around the country and in places such as Shetland in particular. Given that the income from the industry has materialised during the past 15 years or so, the industry reminds us how a relatively new industry can contribute to the Scottish economy. Pressures such as infectious salmon anaemia, which affect the industry, are causing a decline in profit margins. Salmon farming needs to be much higher up the Government's list of priorities. Many other crises similar to those beingexperienced in salmon farming affect our rural communities. I feel that we need much faster Government responses to them. I would like to know whether there are any plans in the Scottish Executive rural affairs department to create fast response units. I want to get people and officials into rural communities to speak to the people concerned and to come up with solutions as soon as a crisis arises. The seven-month delay—from the announcement of the original £9 million package, with strings attached, to the most recent announcement, with the strings removed—is unacceptable. Officials and industry representatives do not want to spend their energies lobbying the Government for assistance. They have other things to do with their time, such as trying to make a living and addressing the issues that concern them. We need a long-term and comprehensive strategy from the Government in connection with salmon farming and all fisheries—aquaculture, freshwater fisheries, inshore fisheries and deep- sea fishing—so that research needs and other matters can be taken into account. I look forward to the minister's response to my comments and those of my colleagues.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will be brief as I appreciate that many local members want to make a speech. I congratulate Tavish on his motion and on bringing the subject before Parliament.

The motion reminds us of the important contribution that salmon farming makes to the Scottish economy. The industry sustains more than 6,000 jobs in fragile communities around the country and in places such as Shetland in particular. Given that the income from the industry has materialised during the past 15 years or so, the industry reminds us how a relatively new industry can contribute to the Scottish economy. Pressures such as infectious salmon anaemia, which affect the industry, are causing a decline in profit margins. Salmon farming needs to be much higher up the Government's list of priorities.

Many other crises similar to those being

experienced in salmon farming affect our rural communities. I feel that we need much faster Government responses to them. I would like to know whether there are any plans in the Scottish Executive rural affairs department to create fast response units. I want to get people and officials into rural communities to speak to the people concerned and to come up with solutions as soon as a crisis arises.

The seven-month delay—from the announcement of the original £9 million package, with strings attached, to the most recent announcement, with the strings removed—is unacceptable. Officials and industry representatives do not want to spend their energies lobbying the Government for assistance. They have other things to do with their time, such as trying to make a living and addressing the issues that concern them.

We need a long-term and comprehensive strategy from the Government in connection with salmon farming and all fisheries—aquaculture, freshwater fisheries, inshore fisheries and deep- sea fishing—so that research needs and other matters can be taken into account. I look forward to the minister's response to my comments and those of my colleagues.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:31.1569345+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2133E222P520C707852", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26804, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 566.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26805, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "QuestionHeading": "Health Care", "QuestionHeadingID": 26816, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 658.0, "DisplayOrder": 658.0, "ID": 26816, "ParentID": 26805 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Matheson, Michael", "ID": 2133, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Matheson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Matheson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 661.0, "ContributionID": 707852, "EditedText": "Does the minister recognise that there is considerable confusion among health boards, local authorities and health trusts about whose responsibility it is to provide palliative care, often leaving someone who has been diagnosed as having a terminal illness in an extremely vulnerable position? Does he recognise that very few hospitals or NHS trusts have a discharge protocol for arranging services with local authorities when individuals are discharged from hospital? Does the minister agree that it is inappropriate that, when someone is in the final stages of life, they should be financially assessed for social services and the care that they may require to remain at home during that final stage?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the minister recognise that there is considerable confusion among health boards, local authorities and health trusts about whose responsibility it is to provide palliative care, often leaving someone who has been diagnosed as having a terminal illness in an extremely vulnerable position? Does he recognise that very few hospitals or NHS trusts have a discharge protocol for arranging services with local authorities when individuals are discharged from hospital? Does the minister agree that it is inappropriate that, when someone is in the final stages of life, they should be financially assessed for social services and the care that they may require to remain at home during that final stage?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:20.9670782+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2180E179P471C707868", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26804, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 566.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26805, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "QuestionHeading": "Fisheries", "QuestionHeadingID": 26820, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 696.0, "DisplayOrder": 696.0, "ID": 26820, "ParentID": 26805 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lochhead, Richard", "ID": 2180, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Lochhead", "SpeakerDisplayName": "17. Richard Lochhead (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 697.0, "ContributionID": 707868, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it has made representations to Her Majesty's Government requesting that the Scottish Executive lead European and international fisheries negotiations on behalf of the United Kingdom. (S1O-317) The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs (Mr John Home Robertson): I have had discussions with the fisheries minister at the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. I intend to play a full part in the UK team and expect to take a lead role in the appropriate circumstances.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it has made representations to Her Majesty's Government requesting that the Scottish Executive lead European and international fisheries negotiations on behalf of the United Kingdom. (S1O-317) The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs (Mr John Home Robertson): I have had discussions with the fisheries minister at the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. I intend to play a full part in the UK team and expect to take a lead role in the appropriate circumstances.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:20.9670782+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2180E179P471C707871", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26804, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 566.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26805, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "QuestionHeading": "Fisheries", "QuestionHeadingID": 26820, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 696.0, "DisplayOrder": 696.0, "ID": 26820, "ParentID": 26805 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lochhead, Richard", "ID": 2180, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Lochhead", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Richard Lochhead: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 703.0, "ContributionID": 707871, "EditedText": "Does the minister accept that the best deal for Scotland's fishermen will not be achieved if a representative from another Government conducts the negotiations on behalf of the Scottish industry?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the minister accept that the best deal for Scotland's fishermen will not be achieved if a representative from another Government conducts the negotiations on behalf of the Scottish industry?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:20.9827029+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2180E179P471C707919", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Water Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26831, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 803.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 803.0, "ID": 26831, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lochhead, Richard", "ID": 2180, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Lochhead", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Richard Lochhead (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 811.0, "ContributionID": 707919, "EditedText": "Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, I take on board your comments, but I am disappointed that the minister took 15 minutes to make her statement and that the Opposition is allowed only one question in response. I have, therefore, to limit my question to one aspect of the issue: the new arrangements for the regulation of the water industry. I congratulate Mr Sutherland on his appointment, but is it not the case that the new role of water commissioner is that of the Executive's placeman? Given that the water commissioner will be subservient to the civil servants as opposed to the customers—the water consumers—the voice of the consumer has been silenced. Would it not be a step in the right direction for the water commissioner to report back to the Parliament, rather than to the ministers, so that we can play a role in defending the customers' interests, given that they have not been taken into account under the new arrangements? Will the minister respond to concerns expressed by the Scottish Consumer Council—which are shared by the SNP—that the proposals to make the water commissioner chair the local, so-called consultative, committees will not lead to a strong independent voice for the consumer?", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, I take on board your comments, but I am disappointed that the minister took 15 minutes to make her statement and that the Opposition is allowed only one question in response. I have, therefore, to limit my question to one aspect of the issue: the new arrangements for the regulation of the water industry.

I congratulate Mr Sutherland on his appointment, but is it not the case that the new role of water commissioner is that of the Executive's placeman? Given that the water commissioner will be subservient to the civil servants as opposed to the customers—the water consumers—the voice of the consumer has been silenced. Would it not be a step in the right direction for the water commissioner to report back to the Parliament, rather than to the ministers, so that we can play a role in defending the customers' interests, given that they have not been taken into account under the new arrangements?

Will the minister respond to concerns expressed by the Scottish Consumer Council—which are shared by the SNP—that the proposals to make the water commissioner chair the local, so-called consultative, committees will not lead to a strong independent voice for the consumer?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:20.9827029+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1860E111P160C707718", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Grant, Rhoda", "ID": 1860, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Rhoda Grant", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Rhoda Grant (Highlands and Islands) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 363.0, "ContributionID": 707718, "EditedText": "I have a great interest in transport as I represent a rural area. This Executive has shown that it recognises the challenges to transport provision in rural areas. I would like more to be done, but many initiatives have gone largely unnoticed. Work has been done to move freight off the roads by providing freight facilities grants to companies such as Safeway plc, which enables them to remove 30,000 trucks from the A9. Local Highland companies such as Lovat Pride Mineral Water have also begun to transport freight by train. In Caithness, Norfrost has built a freight terminal at Georgemas Junction, which has been used by other companies to move steel pipes, aviation fuel, flagstones and timber off the roads. This is only the start. By moving freight on to therailways, we not only cut the cost to companies by a third, but cut pollution and free up the road system. Previous Governments cut funding for road maintenance but did nothing to ease the pressure on the roads. Ferries have also benefited. CalMac's grant has increased by £3.2 million, and it has received additional funding to build two new ferries. That will help it enhance the service it provides. Northern isles ferries have also benefited by their grant being increased by 25 per cent. Yesterday's announcement of a 25 per cent increase in spending on the rural transport fund was a huge boost. I would like to list all the organisations in the Highlands and Islands that have benefited from the increase, but I do not think that I will have time. I particularly welcome the funding for social car schemes and dial-a-bus services. It not only provides for people to become less dependent, but allows those without access to cars to become self-reliant: they do not have to depend on friends, family or neighbours to take them shopping. The Executive's policy goes a long way towards tackling social exclusion in rural areas. Much has been made of high fuel taxes and their effects on rural areas. I look forward to the Office of Fair Trading report on fuel pricing. I hope that it will lead to equal pricing between rural and urban areas. Over the past decade, many petrol stations have had to close. The rural petrol stations grant has stemmed that decline, ensuring that many rural filling stations can continue to trade. The grant ensures that people in rural areas have access to petrol locally and do not have to travel a huge distance to buy it. Those initiatives are real investments that make a difference to people's lives throughout the Highlands and Islands and the rest of rural Scotland. I support Sarah Boyack's amendment.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have a great interest in transport as I represent a rural area. This Executive has shown that it recognises the challenges to transport provision in rural areas. I would like more to be done, but many initiatives have gone largely unnoticed.

Work has been done to move freight off the roads by providing freight facilities grants to companies such as Safeway plc, which enables them to remove 30,000 trucks from the A9. Local Highland companies such as Lovat Pride Mineral Water have also begun to transport freight by train.

In Caithness, Norfrost has built a freight terminal at Georgemas Junction, which has been used by other companies to move steel pipes, aviation fuel, flagstones and timber off the roads.

This is only the start. By moving freight on to the

railways, we not only cut the cost to companies by a third, but cut pollution and free up the road system. Previous Governments cut funding for road maintenance but did nothing to ease the pressure on the roads.

Ferries have also benefited. CalMac's grant has increased by £3.2 million, and it has received additional funding to build two new ferries. That will help it enhance the service it provides. Northern isles ferries have also benefited by their grant being increased by 25 per cent. Yesterday's announcement of a 25 per cent increase in spending on the rural transport fund was a huge boost.

I would like to list all the organisations in the Highlands and Islands that have benefited from the increase, but I do not think that I will have time. I particularly welcome the funding for social car schemes and dial-a-bus services. It not only provides for people to become less dependent, but allows those without access to cars to become self-reliant: they do not have to depend on friends, family or neighbours to take them shopping. The Executive's policy goes a long way towards tackling social exclusion in rural areas.

Much has been made of high fuel taxes and their effects on rural areas. I look forward to the Office of Fair Trading report on fuel pricing. I hope that it will lead to equal pricing between rural and urban areas. Over the past decade, many petrol stations have had to close. The rural petrol stations grant has stemmed that decline, ensuring that many rural filling stations can continue to trade. The grant ensures that people in rural areas have access to petrol locally and do not have to travel a huge distance to buy it.

Those initiatives are real investments that make a difference to people's lives throughout the Highlands and Islands and the rest of rural Scotland. I support Sarah Boyack's amendment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:00:21.9656621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1773E197P503C707804", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Continental Tyres", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26803, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 526.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 526.0, "ID": 26803, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hyslop, Fiona", "ID": 1773, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona Hyslop", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona Hyslop (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 548.0, "ContributionID": 707804, "EditedText": "Members will be aware that I have taken up the interests of my constituents who are workers at the Continental plant. The minister may wish that I had not, but that is our duty in this Parliament. By supporting this motion, the Parliament can stand shoulder to shoulder with the Continental workers in their fight for a fair deal from the general management. A Scottish Continental worker facing redundancy is worth no less than an Irish worker—and certainly not 40 per cent less. In a number of discussions that I have had with the work force, the management and the unions, I have been struck by their compelling case. Workers have taken a wage freeze, increased hours and productivity, and changed their shift patterns on a number of occasions to make the survival package work—and it was working. Members should be aware that, recently, high- performing machinery has been removed from the plant in the face of a slump in demand. In the past three months, 120 tyre moulds have been removed. How does that square with a market downturn? They are obviously needed somewhere. I understand that Ford is now refusing Continental tyres made in eastern Europe as those plants do not have the assurances of the International Standards Organisation that Newbridge can guarantee. As Margaret Smith said, Continental made substantial profits recently. It has invested £20 million in sponsoring the Champions League to promote its good name and reputation. That reputation is endangered by its refusal to give its Scottish workers a fair deal and the respect due for the hard work and commitment they have shown. If we are talking about champions, this Parliament must champion Scottish workers. Independent Ireland has tough labour laws; we do not have those powers but we can lend our support. The Parliament, in calling for ministers to take this message to Dr Holzbach, can show a sense of strength and solidarity with the Continental workers. They most certainly deserve our support and I am pleased that the minister's amendment gives them that.", "EditedTextHTML": "Members will be aware that I have taken up the interests of my constituents who are workers at the Continental plant. The minister may wish that I had not, but that is our duty in this Parliament.

By supporting this motion, the Parliament can stand shoulder to shoulder with the Continental workers in their fight for a fair deal from the general management. A Scottish Continental worker facing redundancy is worth no less than an Irish worker—and certainly not 40 per cent less.

In a number of discussions that I have had with the work force, the management and the unions, I have been struck by their compelling case. Workers have taken a wage freeze, increased hours and productivity, and changed their shift patterns on a number of occasions to make the survival package work—and it was working. Members should be aware that, recently, high- performing machinery has been removed from the plant in the face of a slump in demand. In the past three months, 120 tyre moulds have been removed. How does that square with a market downturn? They are obviously needed somewhere. I understand that Ford is now refusing

Continental tyres made in eastern Europe as those plants do not have the assurances of the International Standards Organisation that Newbridge can guarantee. As Margaret Smith said, Continental made substantial profits recently. It has invested £20 million in sponsoring the Champions League to promote its good name and reputation. That reputation is endangered by its refusal to give its Scottish workers a fair deal and the respect due for the hard work and commitment they have shown.

If we are talking about champions, this Parliament must champion Scottish workers. Independent Ireland has tough labour laws; we do not have those powers but we can lend our support.

The Parliament, in calling for ministers to take this message to Dr Holzbach, can show a sense of strength and solidarity with the Continental workers. They most certainly deserve our support and I am pleased that the minister's amendment gives them that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:00:34.116328+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1773E197P503C707958", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26832, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 869.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 869.0, "ID": 26832, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hyslop, Fiona", "ID": 1773, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona Hyslop", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona Hyslop (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 892.0, "ContributionID": 707958, "EditedText": "I welcome the minister's statement, as new resources in this area are always welcome. The Scottish National party is pleased to note that the Executive occasionally listens to the Opposition and that, to some small degree, the minister has listened to our call for an increase in public spending on housing. We are also happy to support the announcement made on Tuesday, which echoes the key manifesto pledges that we made in May, in particular on a rural rent deposit scheme that was mentioned. In all sincerity, however, announcements such as the one made by the minister would be better made in this chamber at debates such as this. As a member of the Social Inclusion, Housing and Voluntary Sector Committee, I have yet to receive a paper detailing where the extra money will be spent. Bearing in mind that the Scottish Executive's website has crashed, we cannot be expected to get information about such announcements there. The Minister for Communities has identified her main priorities. Our amendment seeks to do two key things: to put the homelessness issue into the proper context and to ask members for their support in bringing forward the Executive's timetable for housing legislation. I will deal with each in turn. The SNP is concerned that the debate on homelessness has centred around solely the issue of rooflessness. It is with some concern that we hear the minister talking about moving homelessness away from housing. Yes, we recognise that there is a social dimension to homelessness. However, we should be warned about the distinctive move that the Executive seems to be making on this issue; it is a move that we must view with deep concern. The Scottish Executive's announcement of key schemes, such as the rent deposit scheme, is a small step on the way to recognising that there is more to homelessness than sleeping rough. The SNP is also pleased that the Executive is listening to the experts in the field and realising that more needs to be done on the causes of homelessness. According to the Chartered Institute of Housing, evictions and exclusions from housing need are among the main causes of social exclusion. Yet the Scottish Executive does not keep any central record of exclusions for rent arrears or for anti-social behaviour. In England, Shelter estimates that local authorities are excluding around 200,000 people from council waiting lists and allocations, largely due to rent arrears. The result is that we have no real statistical base from which to calculate the position or to identify where rises in homelessness occur. We have no way of tracking when large jumps in homelessness take place, or of finding out the causes of those jumps. For example, we know that from 1986 to 1987 in the Highlands 619 households applied to local authorities as homeless households. In the last 10 years, there has been a jump of 130 per cent. There is no statistical evidence by which we can measure whether, during that time, housing authorities in the Highlands and Islands had increased eviction levels. There are no centrally held statistics on the number of people who were excluded from applying to a particular authority in the Highlands and Islands. I am aware that the Executive plans to publish statistics on evictions from April 2000 and I welcome those plans. However, we require information on what has happened over the past 10 years. Apart from the lack of information, there are further aspects of homelessness that we must consider. We have yet to have a comprehensive policy on homelessness that deals with issues of hidden homelessness. I understand that there is a review, but we will not receive the report of that review until spring next year. We must move swiftly on this issue. I recognise the points that the minister made earlier, but we must acknowledge that there is more to homelessness than the issue of rough sleeping. We must examine the backlog of house adaptations for people with disabilities. There are people who live with family or friends, and who are unable to move into their own home because of a lack of suitable accommodation. Such circumstances are part of recognising that housing is very much a part of homelessness. Hidden homelessness includes the thousands of older people who cannot move out of NHS hospitals, as there is no suitable accommodation for them. We heard earlier today that there is no commitment to look at resources for women who flee domestic violence, which is one of the most acute forms of housing need. We must address that issue. Every year, 24,000 children are made homeless in Scotland. On the point about joined-up Government, we need housing legislation, but we need it sooner rather than later. It was with great disappointment that the Social Inclusion, Housing and Voluntary Sector Committee heard about the Executive's commitment to introduce a bill in mid-2000, rather than in early 2000. That is not good enough. We need a housing bill during this millennium, not during the next millennium. We must ensure that, if the Executive is to move on stock transfer, we protect the rights of tenants. Contracts are all very well, but we need statutory instruments.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the minister's statement, as new resources in this area are always welcome. The Scottish National party is pleased to note that the Executive occasionally listens to the Opposition and that, to some small degree, the minister has listened to our call for an increase in public spending on housing. We are also happy to support the announcement made on Tuesday, which echoes the key manifesto pledges that we made in May, in particular on a rural rent deposit scheme that was mentioned.

In all sincerity, however, announcements such as the one made by the minister would be better made in this chamber at debates such as this. As a member of the Social Inclusion, Housing and Voluntary Sector Committee, I have yet to receive a paper detailing where the extra money will be spent. Bearing in mind that the Scottish Executive's website has crashed, we cannot be expected to get information about such announcements there.

The Minister for Communities has identified her main priorities. Our amendment seeks to do two key things: to put the homelessness issue into the proper context and to ask members for their support in bringing forward the Executive's timetable for housing legislation. I will deal with each in turn.

The SNP is concerned that the debate on homelessness has centred around solely the issue of rooflessness. It is with some concern that we hear the minister talking about moving homelessness away from housing. Yes, we recognise that there is a social dimension to homelessness. However, we should be warned about the distinctive move that the Executive seems to be making on this issue; it is a move that we must view with deep concern.

The Scottish Executive's announcement of key schemes, such as the rent deposit scheme, is a small step on the way to recognising that there is more to homelessness than sleeping rough. The SNP is also pleased that the Executive is listening to the experts in the field and realising that more needs to be done on the causes of homelessness. According to the Chartered Institute of Housing, evictions and exclusions from housing need are among the main causes of social exclusion. Yet the Scottish Executive does not keep any central record of exclusions for rent arrears or for anti-social behaviour. In England, Shelter estimates that local authorities are excluding around 200,000 people from council waiting lists and allocations, largely due to rent arrears.

The result is that we have no real statistical base from which to calculate the position or to identify where rises in homelessness occur. We have no way of tracking when large jumps in homelessness take place, or of finding out the causes of those jumps. For example, we know that from 1986 to 1987 in the Highlands 619 households applied to local authorities as homeless households. In the last 10 years, there has been a jump of 130 per cent. There is no statistical evidence by which we can measure whether, during that time, housing authorities in the Highlands and Islands had increased eviction levels. There are no centrally held statistics on the number of people who were excluded from applying to a particular authority in the Highlands and Islands. I am aware that the Executive plans to publish statistics on evictions from April 2000 and I welcome those plans. However, we require information on what has happened over the past 10 years.

Apart from the lack of information, there are further aspects of homelessness that we must consider. We have yet to have a comprehensive policy on homelessness that deals with issues of hidden homelessness. I understand that there is a review, but we will not receive the report of that review until spring next year. We must move swiftly on this issue. I recognise the points that the minister made earlier, but we must acknowledge that there is more to homelessness than the issue

of rough sleeping. We must examine the backlog of house adaptations for people with disabilities. There are people who live with family or friends, and who are unable to move into their own home because of a lack of suitable accommodation. Such circumstances are part of recognising that housing is very much a part of homelessness. Hidden homelessness includes the thousands of older people who cannot move out of NHS hospitals, as there is no suitable accommodation for them. We heard earlier today that there is no commitment to look at resources for women who flee domestic violence, which is one of the most acute forms of housing need. We must address that issue. Every year, 24,000 children are made homeless in Scotland.

On the point about joined-up Government, we need housing legislation, but we need it sooner rather than later. It was with great disappointment that the Social Inclusion, Housing and Voluntary Sector Committee heard about the Executive's commitment to introduce a bill in mid-2000, rather than in early 2000. That is not good enough. We need a housing bill during this millennium, not during the next millennium. We must ensure that, if the Executive is to move on stock transfer, we protect the rights of tenants. Contracts are all very well, but we need statutory instruments.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:00:34.116328+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1773E197P503C707975", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26832, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 869.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 869.0, "ID": 26832, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hyslop, Fiona", "ID": 1773, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona Hyslop", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona Hyslop: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 928.0, "ContributionID": 707975, "EditedText": "Does Robert Brown agree that the introduction of suspended repossession orders could easily be done as part of the feudal bill, as presented by the Executive, to amend the Conveyancing and Feudal Reform (Scotland) Act 1970, and that we do not need a member's bill, which takes up this Parliament's time, when the Executive can achieve the same thing in its own time?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does Robert Brown agree that the introduction of suspended repossession orders could easily be done as part of the feudal bill, as presented by the Executive, to amend the Conveyancing and Feudal Reform (Scotland) Act 1970, and that we do not need a member's bill, which takes up this Parliament's time, when the Executive can achieve the same thing in its own time?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:00:47.4219837+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C707572", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 62.0, "ContributionID": 707572, "EditedText": "Perhaps Mr Tosh could enlighten us.", "EditedTextHTML": "Perhaps Mr Tosh could enlighten us.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:05.8270026+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C707574", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 66.0, "ContributionID": 707574, "EditedText": "I quoted from \"Paying for Better Motorways\", which does not talk exclusively about new roads. The Conservatives think that it is important that we discuss this issue in what they call the right climate. When will we reach that right climate? We did not hear a lot from Mr Tosh about Tory plans for the future. We have to move further south for those—to John Redwood. People say a lot of things about John Redwood, but he is the Tory transport spokesman.", "EditedTextHTML": "I quoted from \"Paying for Better Motorways\", which does not talk exclusively about new roads. The Conservatives think that it is important that we discuss this issue in what they call the right climate. When will we reach that right climate?

We did not hear a lot from Mr Tosh about Tory plans for the future. We have to move further south for those—to John Redwood. People say a lot of things about John Redwood, but he is the Tory transport spokesman.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:05.8270026+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C707577", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 72.0, "ContributionID": 707577, "EditedText": "In the absence of any practical proposals from Mr Tosh, we have to look to the Tories' 10-point plan for the motorist. John Redwood's proposals are for minimum speed limits, whereas our discussions in constituencies tell us that local communities are calling for appropriate lower speeds, not higher speeds. Mr Redwood also proposes a mix of tax reductions and spending increases on roads, without any explanation of how the bill can be met. That is wholly implausible, and nothing has been added this morning to provide clarity. I want to be fair to Mr Tosh's motion. He recognises the importance of reducing vehicle emissions. However, why is there no meaningful mention of public transport? He dismissed it out of hand, saying that it would have virtually no useful role to play in tackling emissions and congestion.", "EditedTextHTML": "In the absence of any practical proposals from Mr Tosh, we have to look to the Tories' 10-point plan for the motorist. John Redwood's proposals are for minimum speed limits, whereas our discussions in constituencies tell us that local communities are calling for appropriate lower speeds, not higher speeds.

Mr Redwood also proposes a mix of tax reductions and spending increases on roads, without any explanation of how the bill can be met. That is wholly implausible, and nothing has been added this morning to provide clarity.

I want to be fair to Mr Tosh's motion. He recognises the importance of reducing vehicle emissions. However, why is there no meaningful mention of public transport? He dismissed it out of hand, saying that it would have virtually no useful role to play in tackling emissions and congestion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:05.8270026+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C707583", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 84.0, "ContributionID": 707583, "EditedText": "Yes, I will.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes, I will.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:05.8270026+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2056E57P84C707543", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Thursday 16 September 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26800, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26800, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James", "ID": 2056, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "James Douglas-Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Lord James Douglas-Hamilton (Lothians) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 3.0, "ContributionID": 707543, "EditedText": "On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I ask you to accept without notice motion S1M-00158 relating to Continental Tyres. That motion is available in the chamber office and at the back of this room. The motion says: That the Parliament calls upon the Scottish Executive to take up with the Continental Tyre Company the need to give their Scottish employees parity of treatment by offering them an equivalent package to that offered to and received by their former employees in Semprit in Ireland, in view of the impending visit on Friday to Newbridge of Dr Holzbach, senior executive member of the Continental Tyre Company.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I ask you to accept without notice motion S1M-00158 relating to Continental Tyres. That motion is available in the chamber office and at the back of this room. The motion says:

That the Parliament calls upon the Scottish Executive to take up with the Continental Tyre Company the need to give their Scottish employees parity of treatment by offering them an equivalent package to that offered to and received by their former employees in Semprit in Ireland, in view of the impending visit on Friday to Newbridge of Dr Holzbach, senior executive member of the Continental Tyre Company.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2056E57P84C707544", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Thursday 16 September 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26800, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26800, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James", "ID": 2056, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "James Douglas-Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Lord James Douglas-Hamilton: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 5.0, "ContributionID": 707544, "EditedText": "I submit that this matter is urgent as last-minute negotiations between the work force and management will take place tomorrow. In view of the fact that 40 per cent less is being offered to the employees in Scotland than was offered to employees in Ireland, I submit that it is right and appropriate that the Parliament should be enabled to express a view.", "EditedTextHTML": "I submit that this matter is urgent as last-minute negotiations between the work force and management will take place tomorrow. In view of the fact that 40 per cent less is being offered to the employees in Scotland than was offered to employees in Ireland, I submit that it is right and appropriate that the Parliament should be enabled to express a view.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C707547", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Thursday 16 September 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26800, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26800, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 10.0, "ContributionID": 707547, "EditedText": "The debate on motion S1M-00158 will take place at 12 o'clock. I ask the business managers to consider the lists of names that have been submitted for the transport debate, as it will not be possible now for all to be called.", "EditedTextHTML": "The debate on motion S1M-00158 will take place at 12 o'clock. I ask the business managers to consider the lists of names that have been submitted for the transport debate, as it will not be possible now for all to be called.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C707548", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 13.0, "ContributionID": 707548, "EditedText": "We now move to the main business this morning, which is the non-Executive business debate on motion S1M-151, in the name of Murray Tosh, on transport and on an amendment to that motion. I call Murray Tosh to move the motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "We now move to the main business this morning, which is the non-Executive business debate on motion S1M-151, in the name of Murray Tosh, on transport and on an amendment to that motion. I call Murray Tosh to move the motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C707551", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 20.0, "ContributionID": 707551, "EditedText": "If Mr Kerr looks at the figures for road construction under the Conservative Government, he will find that, at 1999 prices, the Conservative Government managed to spend £251 million on roads in 1996, and that a high proportion of that was spent on construction and upgrading of road networks. Under the current proposals, by 2002 expenditure on roads will have fallen in real terms to about £170 million. There are on-going cuts in local authority commitments as well, and there is almost nothing—only £14 million—in the budget for new road construction. That is precisely what we mean in saying that the pendulum has swung too far, and why we can agree with what Professor Begg said in an informal briefing to the Transport and the Environment Committee. He said that it cannot be right that we have no new road building at all. Roads matter. We cannot simply wipe out the road building programme. Professor Begg identified the importance of bypasses, and road improvements to promote road safety. He also urged us to consider carefully economic development. Almost every member can relate to that. We all come from regions, constituencies and council areas that regard infrastructure as the key to their vitality, prosperity and development. With the best will in the world, and with even the most optimistic expectations about bus and rail transport, we will continue to need roads and must provide for good roads. I have already touched on the spending reductions that have taken place in the past few years; more worrying are the projected reductions. When the minister makes her announcement on the strategic roads programme in a few days, we are afraid that she will have nothing to announce. She may be able to reorder the programme or to delete some projects, but should any strategic roads programme remain, there will be no resources to fund it. That should be a matter of deep concern to the Parliament. We need to know what the Executive thinks about those issues and what importance it attaches to our industrial competitiveness and to economic development, particularly in our more peripheral areas. What is the Government's big picture? Over the past decade, it has been a central objective of European and UK policy to improve our strategic transport arteries. Surely, as a United Kingdom economy and as part of a growing and dynamic European economy, that should be the big picture. The improvement of strategic transport arteries includes roads, which is why the previous Government put so much into the M74. That is why the Government must—at a minimum—complete the essential, integral core motorway network, as well as considering road safety issues. We believe that rail, sea and air routes are important too. We are happy to discuss the improvements to rail transport. We are conscious of the investment programme that ScotRail and the franchise operators are undertaking. We were heartened by the minister's visit to the Transport and the Environment Committee, in which she almost purred with delight at the prospect of all the new rolling stock that will be introduced by 2000. We welcome that development and hail it as a result of the privatisation regime and the substantial increases—£27 billion in the UK and £2 billion in Scotland—in investment that have been made by Railtrack. We are delighted that the Scottish Executive applauds and welcomes the fruits of that decision. We have heard tolls and city entry charges being justified on the basis of tackling congestion and pollution. We are also aware of research and advice that suggests that if tolls were to achieve a substantial modal switch, they would need to be set at levels that we would all regard as prohibitive. Instead of tolls, we believe that we should improve traffic management, rail networks and bus operations in cities. We should not tax the motorist off the street; that policy will not work, and so will have no impact on environmental pollution. The problem demands more carrot than stick. At the end of the day, the bulk of the traffic in our cities will still be there. The approach should be one of management, containment and balance. We simply do not see a place for tolls.", "EditedTextHTML": "If Mr Kerr looks at the figures for road construction under the Conservative Government, he will find that, at 1999 prices, the Conservative Government managed to spend £251 million on roads in 1996, and that a high proportion of that was spent on construction and upgrading of road networks. Under the current proposals, by 2002 expenditure on roads will have fallen in real terms to about £170 million. There are on-going cuts in local authority commitments as well, and there is almost nothing—only £14 million—in the budget for new road construction.

That is precisely what we mean in saying that the pendulum has swung too far, and why we can agree with what Professor Begg said in an informal briefing to the Transport and the Environment Committee. He said that it cannot be right that we have no new road building at all.

Roads matter. We cannot simply wipe out the road building programme. Professor Begg identified the importance of bypasses, and road improvements to promote road safety. He also urged us to consider carefully economic development. Almost every member can relate to that. We all come from regions, constituencies and council areas that regard infrastructure as the key to their vitality, prosperity and development. With the best will in the world, and with even the most optimistic expectations about bus and rail transport, we will continue to need roads and must provide for good roads.

I have already touched on the spending reductions that have taken place in the past few years; more worrying are the projected reductions. When the minister makes her announcement on the strategic roads programme in a few days, we are afraid that she will have nothing to announce. She may be able to reorder the programme or to delete some projects, but should any strategic roads programme remain, there will be no resources to fund it. That should be a matter of deep concern to the Parliament.

We need to know what the Executive thinks about those issues and what importance it attaches to our industrial competitiveness and to economic development, particularly in our more peripheral areas. What is the Government's big picture? Over the past decade, it has been a central objective of European and UK policy to improve our strategic transport arteries. Surely, as a United Kingdom economy and as part of a growing and dynamic European economy, that should be the big picture. The improvement of strategic transport arteries includes roads, which is why the previous Government put so much into the M74. That is why the Government must—at a minimum—complete the essential, integral core motorway network, as well as considering road safety issues.

We believe that rail, sea and air routes are important too. We are happy to discuss the improvements to rail transport. We are conscious of the investment programme that ScotRail and the franchise operators are undertaking. We were heartened by the minister's visit to the Transport and the Environment Committee, in which she almost purred with delight at the prospect of all the new rolling stock that will be introduced by 2000. We welcome that development and hail it as a result of the privatisation regime and the substantial increases—£27 billion in the UK and £2 billion in Scotland—in investment that have been made by Railtrack. We are delighted that the Scottish Executive applauds and welcomes the fruits of that decision.

We have heard tolls and city entry charges being justified on the basis of tackling congestion and pollution. We are also aware of research and advice that suggests that if tolls were to achieve a substantial modal switch, they would need to be set at levels that we would all regard as prohibitive. Instead of tolls, we believe that we should improve traffic management, rail networks and bus operations in cities. We should not tax the

motorist off the street; that policy will not work, and so will have no impact on environmental pollution. The problem demands more carrot than stick.

At the end of the day, the bulk of the traffic in our cities will still be there. The approach should be one of management, containment and balance. We simply do not see a place for tolls.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C707555", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 28.0, "ContributionID": 707555, "EditedText": "Not in the middle of a point, thank you.The Government and the Executive are jointly in the middle of a take, take exercise. I will acknowledge the fact that survey evidence suggests that motorists might be prepared to pay more. The Royal Automobile Club and the Automobile Association—even the CBI—have said that they are prepared to accept some charges. That is not our position, but those organisations think that motorists might be persuaded, if there were transparency and a commitment to spend the money in a way that will benefit those who are being charged. Transparency and accountability have gone haywire. We began with a consultation scheme, which, when it was announced, did not even promise to ring-fence the money that was raised by tolls. Within a day, the Government backtracked on that and claimed that that was not its intention, but we still do not have any commitment on additionality. We still have not been promised that any moneys raised by tolls or city entry charges will be absolutely and categorically additional to the funds of the local authorities that receive them. As Andy Kerr has said, local authority expenditure on roads has fallen.", "EditedTextHTML": "Not in the middle of a point, thank you.

The Government and the Executive are jointly in the middle of a take, take exercise. I will acknowledge the fact that survey evidence suggests that motorists might be prepared to pay more. The Royal Automobile Club and the Automobile Association—even the CBI—have said that they are prepared to accept some charges. That is not our position, but those organisations think that motorists might be persuaded, if there were transparency and a commitment to spend the money in a way that will benefit those who are being charged.

Transparency and accountability have gone haywire. We began with a consultation scheme, which, when it was announced, did not even promise to ring-fence the money that was raised by tolls. Within a day, the Government backtracked on that and claimed that that was not its intention, but we still do not have any commitment on additionality. We still have not been promised that any moneys raised by tolls or city entry charges will be absolutely and categorically additional to the funds of the local authorities that receive them. As Andy Kerr has said, local authority expenditure on roads has fallen.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1908E166P251C707556", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Kerr, Andy", "ID": 1908, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Kilbride" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andy Kerr", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Kerr: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 30.0, "ContributionID": 707556, "EditedText": "That was your party.", "EditedTextHTML": "That was your party.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C707559", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 36.0, "ContributionID": 707559, "EditedText": "No, I have given way twice. I am willing to give way on another matter, later on, if Sir David will indulge me. The Conservative party recognises that not all the issues raised in my motion are matters for the Scottish Parliament or the Executive. I want to make a general point before going on to develop the more specific ones. At various stages over the past few months, many members have asked ministers what they are saying to Westminster and what representations are being made about air, transport, fuel and a variety of matters that are reserved or in which responsibilities are shared. The only answer that we get to any of those questions is that ministers are meeting regularly with their UK counterparts and are raising a variety of issues. There is not a lot of transparency in that approach. If devolution is going to work and if the Parliament is to convince the people of Scotland that it is meaningful and a success, we need more openness from the ministers in the Scottish Executive about the way in which they represent the Parliament and the country at a UK level. There are two clear areas in which the Scottish Executive must send a message on transport, one of which is fuel duty. Inevitably, we will be attacked about the fuel escalator—we started it. However, we did not impose the fuel escalator at 6 per cent a year.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I have given way twice. I am willing to give way on another matter, later on, if Sir David will indulge me.

The Conservative party recognises that not all the issues raised in my motion are matters for the Scottish Parliament or the Executive. I want to make a general point before going on to develop the more specific ones.

At various stages over the past few months, many members have asked ministers what they are saying to Westminster and what representations are being made about air, transport, fuel and a variety of matters that are reserved or in which responsibilities are shared. The only answer that we get to any of those questions is that ministers are meeting regularly with their UK counterparts and are raising a variety of issues. There is not a lot of transparency in that approach.

If devolution is going to work and if the Parliament is to convince the people of Scotland that it is meaningful and a success, we need more openness from the ministers in the Scottish Executive about the way in which they represent the Parliament and the country at a UK level.

There are two clear areas in which the Scottish Executive must send a message on transport, one of which is fuel duty. Inevitably, we will be attacked about the fuel escalator—we started it. However, we did not impose the fuel escalator at 6 per cent a year.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2112E192P495C707569", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacAskill, Kenny", "ID": 2112, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenny MacAskill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Kenny MacAskill (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 56.0, "ContributionID": 707569, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C707571", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 60.0, "ContributionID": 707571, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C707578", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 74.0, "ContributionID": 707578, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2112E192P495C707580", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacAskill, Kenny", "ID": 2112, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenny MacAskill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr MacAskill rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 78.0, "ContributionID": 707580, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2112E192P495C707586", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacAskill, Kenny", "ID": 2112, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenny MacAskill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr MacAskill: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 90.0, "ContributionID": 707586, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2112E192P495C707588", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacAskill, Kenny", "ID": 2112, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenny MacAskill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr MacAskill: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 94.0, "ContributionID": 707588, "EditedText": "The minister spoke about making representations to central Government. During last week's meeting of the Transport and the Environment Committee, she was asked this question: \"Has the minister made representations to the Chancellor of the Exchequer regarding the increase in the fuel duty escalator in addition to the market force increase?\" Her response was:\"We will consider what we can do about that, but I have not been consulted by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. During the past few months, we have consulted UK Government departments, but that has not been one of the issues that we have discussed.\"—Official Report, Transport and the Environment Committee, 8 September 1999; c 36. Is she now saying that she has discussed the issue with the Chancellor of the Exchequer? If so, what representations has she made about the problems caused by price increases and, in particular, the fuel duty escalator?", "EditedTextHTML": "The minister spoke about making representations to central Government. During last week's meeting of the Transport and the Environment Committee, she was asked this question:

\"Has the minister made representations to the Chancellor of the Exchequer regarding the increase in the fuel duty escalator in addition to the market force increase?\"

Her response was:

\"We will consider what we can do about that, but I have not been consulted by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. During the past few months, we have consulted UK Government departments, but that has not been one of the issues that we have discussed.\"—[Official Report, Transport and the Environment Committee, 8 September 1999; c 36.]

Is she now saying that she has discussed the issue with the Chancellor of the Exchequer? If so, what representations has she made about the problems caused by price increases and, in particular, the fuel duty escalator?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C707590", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 98.0, "ContributionID": 707590, "EditedText": "How can you say that you are not doctrinaire? In your document \"Tackling Congestion\", you say dogmatically that you will introduce congestion charges, which are wholly unproven, to achieve your aims. If you are not doctrinaire, you should have a debate about the principle of the policy, not about its mechanics.", "EditedTextHTML": "How can you say that you are not doctrinaire? In your document \"Tackling Congestion\", you say dogmatically that you will introduce congestion charges, which are wholly unproven, to achieve your aims. If you are not doctrinaire, you should have a debate about the principle of the policy, not about its mechanics.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C707591", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 100.0, "ContributionID": 707591, "EditedText": "Mr McLetchie, there were six yous in that intervention.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr McLetchie, there were six yous in that intervention.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C707598", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 114.0, "ContributionID": 707598, "EditedText": "On a point of order. Is it in order to establish what the minister means in her amendment by \"20 years\"? Do those 20 years include either the last two years of the Callaghan Government or the first two years of the Blair Government?", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. Is it in order to establish what the minister means in her amendment by \"20 years\"? Do those 20 years include either the last two years of the Callaghan Government or the first two years of the Blair Government?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C707602", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 123.0, "ContributionID": 707602, "EditedText": "Briefly.", "EditedTextHTML": "Briefly.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2112E192P495C707606", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacAskill, Kenny", "ID": 2112, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenny MacAskill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr MacAskill: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 131.0, "ContributionID": 707606, "EditedText": "I will not take another intervention. Let us look at the facts. Between 1979 and 1997, when the Tories were in office, traffic increased by 75 per cent. During the past 10 years, there has been a 32 per cent reduction in the number of bus-passenger journeys. The number of rail passengers has remained static; indeed, in terms of the railways, all movement has been static apart from Railtrack's profits.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will not take another intervention.

Let us look at the facts. Between 1979 and 1997, when the Tories were in office, traffic increased by 75 per cent. During the past 10 years, there has been a 32 per cent reduction in the number of bus-passenger journeys. The number of rail passengers has remained static; indeed, in terms of the railways, all movement has been static apart from Railtrack's profits.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2112E192P495C707612", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacAskill, Kenny", "ID": 2112, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenny MacAskill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr MacAskill: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 143.0, "ContributionID": 707612, "EditedText": "No, not at the moment. I have taken plenty of interventions. Donald Dewar stated his position in the Scottish Grand Committee on 1 February this year, and his decision was predicated on the following. He said: \"The oil price is likely to stay at about $10 to $12 a barrel at least in the foreseeable future.\" The First Minister is not here, but the foreseeable future from 1 February would presumably include 16 September of the same year. He continued: \"Therefore, we are worlds removed from the oil prices and production levels of the mid-1980s\".—Official Report, House of Commons, Scottish Grand Committee, 1 February 1999; c 8. Contrary to those claims, the price of oil has risen from $10.2 a barrel to $18.9 a barrel in only seven months. That is a 65.6 per cent increase and we are paying the price. That is why it is not good enough to say that some representations have been made since the Transport and the Environment Committee meeting. We need to stop the fuel price escalator now because it is crippling the Scottish economy, never mind the Scottish motorist. After that, we must ask what the Government does with the excise duty that it has milked from Scotland, given that it has failed to provide the road, rail, marine and air infrastructure that I mentioned. Let us consider the Executive proposals. First we have motorway tolls. To some extent, that issue has been dealt with by the Tory spokesman. SNP members think that the proposal is nonsense. What is the logic behind bringing in motorway tolls? Is it to help the environment? We lodged a written question about the effect motorway tolls would have on the reduction of journeys. What answer did we get? \"We do not really know. It is maybe aye, maybe no; it depends on what you do and how you run it.\"", "EditedTextHTML": "No, not at the moment. I have taken plenty of interventions.

Donald Dewar stated his position in the Scottish Grand Committee on 1 February this year, and his decision was predicated on the following. He said:

\"The oil price is likely to stay at about $10 to $12 a barrel at least in the foreseeable future.\"

The First Minister is not here, but the foreseeable future from 1 February would presumably include 16 September of the same year. He continued:

\"Therefore, we are worlds removed from the oil prices and production levels of the mid-1980s\".—[Official Report, House of Commons, Scottish Grand Committee, 1 February 1999; c 8. ]

Contrary to those claims, the price of oil has risen from $10.2 a barrel to $18.9 a barrel in only seven months. That is a 65.6 per cent increase and we are paying the price. That is why it is not good enough to say that some representations have been made since the Transport and the Environment Committee meeting. We need to stop the fuel price escalator now because it is crippling the Scottish economy, never mind the Scottish motorist. After that, we must ask what the Government does with the excise duty that it has milked from Scotland, given that it has failed to provide the road, rail, marine and air infrastructure that I mentioned.

Let us consider the Executive proposals. First we have motorway tolls. To some extent, that issue has been dealt with by the Tory spokesman. SNP members think that the proposal is nonsense. What is the logic behind bringing in motorway tolls? Is it to help the environment? We lodged a written question about the effect motorway tolls would have on the reduction of journeys. What answer did we get? \"We do not really know. It is maybe aye, maybe no; it depends on what you do and how you run it.\"

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1908E166P251C707613", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Kerr, Andy", "ID": 1908, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Kilbride" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andy Kerr", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Kerr rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 145.0, "ContributionID": 707613, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1908E166P251C707615", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Kerr, Andy", "ID": 1908, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Kilbride" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andy Kerr", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Kerr: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 149.0, "ContributionID": 707615, "EditedText": "Kenny opposed congestion charging for cities. He asks the Executive to give projections on a scheme that it has not even consulted on, but what effect would the SNP scheme have on the number of cars in the cities?", "EditedTextHTML": "Kenny opposed congestion charging for cities. He asks the Executive to give projections on a scheme that it has not even consulted on, but what effect would the SNP scheme have on the number of cars in the cities?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2112E192P495C707621", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacAskill, Kenny", "ID": 2112, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenny MacAskill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr MacAskill: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 161.0, "ContributionID": 707621, "EditedText": "Not at them moment. MEMBERS: \"Give way.\" No.", "EditedTextHTML": "Not at them moment. [MEMBERS: \"Give way.\"] No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C707624", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 167.0, "ContributionID": 707624, "EditedText": "Will you finish, please.", "EditedTextHTML": "Will you finish, please.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2112E192P495C707626", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacAskill, Kenny", "ID": 2112, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenny MacAskill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr MacAskill: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 171.0, "ContributionID": 707626, "EditedText": "Let me deal with congestion charging—", "EditedTextHTML": "Let me deal with congestion charging—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1803E78P291C707629", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gillon, Karen", "ID": 1803, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Clydesdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Karen Gillon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Karen Gillon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 177.0, "ContributionID": 707629, "EditedText": "I quote from the SNP report \"Taking Scotland into the 21st Century: An Economic Strategy for Independence\". Under the heading \"Government Revenues\", it says that, based on a population-based share of UK fuel duties of 8.2 per cent, the SNP would raise the required revenue. The SNP claimed that that would mean no change in fuel duty. However, Scotland's share of UK fuel duties is only 7.2 per cent of the UK total, based on inland deliveries of petrol.", "EditedTextHTML": "I quote from the SNP report \"Taking Scotland into the 21st Century: An Economic Strategy for Independence\". Under the heading \"Government Revenues\", it says that, based on a population-based share of UK fuel duties of 8.2 per cent, the SNP would raise the required revenue. The SNP claimed that that would mean no change in fuel duty. However, Scotland's share of UK fuel duties is only 7.2 per cent of the UK total, based on inland deliveries of petrol.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C707630", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 179.0, "ContributionID": 707630, "EditedText": "Ask a question.", "EditedTextHTML": "Ask a question.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C707633", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon (Argyll and Bute) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 185.0, "ContributionID": 707633, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2112E192P495C707636", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacAskill, Kenny", "ID": 2112, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenny MacAskill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr MacAskill: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 191.0, "ContributionID": 707636, "EditedText": "Secondly, there is an environmental argument, which the Tories did not mention. Our cities have an air-quality problem. In 2005, legislation will be in place and we know that half the sites within the city of Edinburgh that are currently being monitored will fail the standards. Unless we take action in the cities, the continual problem of asthma and bronchial complaints, experienced by youngsters and the elderly, will worsen. We have to address the problem in our inner cities and urban areas. That is why we are sympathetic to road user congestion charging, but say absolutely no way to motorway tolling. On that basis, the debate returns to where we must take Scotland. We believe that the Executive is failing to deal with the problem that it inherited after 18 years of Tory administration. We see no resonance or substance in the principal motion or the amendment. The Tories are crying crocodile tears. As for the minister, I will paraphrase Norman Tebbit: \"On yer bike, Ms Boyack.\"", "EditedTextHTML": "Secondly, there is an environmental argument, which the Tories did not mention. Our cities have an air-quality problem. In 2005, legislation will be in place and we know that half the sites within the city of Edinburgh that are currently being monitored will fail the standards. Unless we take action in the cities, the continual problem of asthma and bronchial complaints, experienced by youngsters and the elderly, will worsen. We have to address the problem in our inner cities and urban areas. That is why we are sympathetic to road user congestion charging, but say absolutely no way to motorway tolling.

On that basis, the debate returns to where we must take Scotland. We believe that the Executive is failing to deal with the problem that it inherited after 18 years of Tory administration. We see no resonance or substance in the principal motion or the amendment. The Tories are crying crocodile tears. As for the minister, I will paraphrase Norman Tebbit: \"On yer bike, Ms Boyack.\"

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C707637", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 193.0, "ContributionID": 707637, "EditedText": "While I have no wish to curtail rumbustious debate, members must remember that significant overruns will impact on those who want to speak.", "EditedTextHTML": "While I have no wish to curtail rumbustious debate, members must remember that significant overruns will impact on

those who want to speak.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2223E203P342C707638", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scott, Tavish", "ID": 2223, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Shetland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tavish Scott", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tavish Scott (Shetland) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 196.0, "ContributionID": 707638, "EditedText": "I have heard it all now; the answer to the SNP's fiscal problems is that oil prices will go up and up and up. We really have heard it all today. welcome Mr Tosh's opening sentiments. Indeed, it is good to debate transport and Scotland's transport needs. However, in terms of policy development in Scotland, the motion is deficient for several reasons, not least of which is that it would achieve nothing and add to congestion on our roads. Further, a significant dose of hypocrisy underpins Conservative policy. The motion fails to provide the leadership, vision and honesty that we need in relation to investment in Scotland's future transport needs. To propose, as the motion does, to increase current spending on Scotland's roads while, on the other hand, opposing congestion charging is inconsistent and illogical. It is a typical Tory policy of mutual contradictions. To then demand that the Westminster Government increase spending on transport is fine, but then—typically of the Tories— Mr Tosh somewhat missed the point. The motion does not mention public transport; the implication is clear: buses and trains are not a factor in moving people round Scotland's roads and cities.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have heard it all now; the answer to the SNP's fiscal problems is that oil prices will go up and up and up. We really have heard it all today. welcome Mr Tosh's opening sentiments. Indeed, it is good to debate transport and Scotland's transport needs. However, in terms of policy development in Scotland, the motion is deficient for several reasons, not least of which is that it would achieve nothing and add to congestion on our roads. Further, a significant dose of hypocrisy underpins Conservative policy. The motion fails to provide the leadership, vision and honesty that we need in relation to investment in Scotland's future transport needs.

To propose, as the motion does, to increase current spending on Scotland's roads while, on the other hand, opposing congestion charging is inconsistent and illogical. It is a typical Tory policy of mutual contradictions. To then demand that the Westminster Government increase spending on transport is fine, but then—typically of the Tories— Mr Tosh somewhat missed the point. The motion does not mention public transport; the implication is clear: buses and trains are not a factor in moving people round Scotland's roads and cities.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2223E203P342C707640", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scott, Tavish", "ID": 2223, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Shetland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tavish Scott", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tavish Scott: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 200.0, "ContributionID": 707640, "EditedText": "The Tory policy is that the car is king; nothing has changed about that. The Tory approach in Scotland today has a discreet whiff of former Tory ministers—something of the Steve Norris approach—and the car is king. Scotland has been down that Tory single-track road and has said no; there must be a better way of approaching our needs. Look at what happened to public transport when the Conservatives were in power. Between 1992 and 1997, there was a 12.2 per cent decrease in the number of passenger journeys on local bus services, or 65 million fewer bus trips by Scots. The number of passenger journeys by rail fell to its lowest in 1995. The Tories see the car as the only solution. That is narrow—", "EditedTextHTML": "The Tory policy is that the car is king; nothing has changed about that. The Tory approach in Scotland today has a discreet whiff of former Tory ministers—something of the Steve Norris approach—and the car is king. Scotland has been down that Tory single-track road and has said no; there must be a better way of approaching our needs.

Look at what happened to public transport when the Conservatives were in power. Between 1992 and 1997, there was a 12.2 per cent decrease in the number of passenger journeys on local bus services, or 65 million fewer bus trips by Scots. The number of passenger journeys by rail fell to its lowest in 1995. The Tories see the car as the only solution. That is narrow—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C707641", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 202.0, "ContributionID": 707641, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2223E203P342C707643", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scott, Tavish", "ID": 2223, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Shetland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tavish Scott", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tavish Scott: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 206.0, "ContributionID": 707643, "EditedText": "Mr Lang concluded:\"Direct charging would . . . secure the efficiency and value for money that a market approach would bring.\" This year David McLetchie said in \"Stop Labour's Road Tolls\": \"Labour accused the Tories of planning to introduce motorway tolls. This was simply not true.\" It is interesting that this time the Tories have gone for a black cover showing a no-entry sign; that sign certainly illustrates their approach to such matters.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Lang concluded:

\"Direct charging would . . . secure the efficiency and value for money that a market approach would bring.\"

This year David McLetchie said in \"Stop Labour's Road Tolls\":

\"Labour accused the Tories of planning to introduce motorway tolls. This was simply not true.\"

It is interesting that this time the Tories have gone for a black cover showing a no-entry sign; that sign certainly illustrates their approach to such matters.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C707644", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 208.0, "ContributionID": 707644, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2223E203P342C707645", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scott, Tavish", "ID": 2223, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Shetland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tavish Scott", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tavish Scott: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 210.0, "ContributionID": 707645, "EditedText": "What did Mr Lang's document say? The Conservative party has a selective memory. No wonder Ian Lang was not invited to the state opening; he would not exactly have been among friends with the Conservatives in the chamber. Mr Tosh referred to the Tories' introduction of the fuel price escalator, but the motion does not mention that. Presumably, the Tories are now rejecting their own policy. This debate should be about illustrating the fact that the fuel price escalator is simply one blunt instrument in the wider pursuit of the UK's international emission reduction obligations. No other European country uses just fuel prices as a single fiscal measure to meet CO2 targets. Our European partners' policy instruments are improvements in public transport—which the Tories have dismissed— better vehicle energy efficiency and financial support for clean vehicles. That is the task for us.", "EditedTextHTML": "What did Mr Lang's document say? The Conservative party has a selective memory. No wonder Ian Lang was not invited to the state opening; he would not exactly have been among friends with the Conservatives in the chamber.

Mr Tosh referred to the Tories' introduction of the fuel price escalator, but the motion does not mention that. Presumably, the Tories are now rejecting their own policy. This debate should be about illustrating the fact that the fuel price escalator is simply one blunt instrument in the wider pursuit of the UK's international emission reduction obligations. No other European country uses just fuel prices as a single fiscal measure to meet CO2 targets. Our European partners' policy instruments are improvements in public transport—which the Tories have dismissed— better vehicle energy efficiency and financial support for clean vehicles. That is the task for us.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2223E203P342C707647", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scott, Tavish", "ID": 2223, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Shetland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tavish Scott", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tavish Scott: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 214.0, "ContributionID": 707647, "EditedText": "The partnership agreement makes it quite clear what is happening. Mrs Scanlon should ask my colleague John Farquhar Munro, who has pursued the matter time and again. He is still pursuing it with all the relevant authorities and is taking action in the chamber to achieve progress. Perhaps Mrs Scanlon should help him rather than whingeing from the sidelines. We need an informed debate with Westminster about the need to use a variety of policy measures, especially to alleviate the costs in Scotland's rural and island areas where the car is not an option but a necessity. That is why Liberal Democrat back benchers went to Westminster yesterday to petition the Treasury. We were seeking a fair deal for Scotland's rural motorists; we also looked at the policy instruments available to the chancellor as he considers strategy for the next budget. The SNP's public position, as outlined on the radio, is that it opposes all congestion charging. Kenny MacAskill may shake his head, but I heard it on the radio at 7 o'clock this morning and the line was that the Tories and the SNP together oppose congestion charging. Interestingly, today we heard some qualification of that—", "EditedTextHTML": "The partnership agreement makes it quite clear what is happening. Mrs Scanlon should ask my colleague John Farquhar Munro, who has pursued the matter time and again. He is still pursuing it with all the relevant authorities and is taking action in the chamber to achieve progress. Perhaps Mrs Scanlon should help him rather than whingeing from the sidelines.

We need an informed debate with Westminster about the need to use a variety of policy measures, especially to alleviate the costs in Scotland's rural and island areas where the car is not an option but a necessity. That is why Liberal Democrat back benchers went to Westminster yesterday to petition the Treasury. We were seeking a fair deal for Scotland's rural motorists; we also looked at the policy instruments available to the chancellor as he considers strategy for the next budget.

The SNP's public position, as outlined on the radio, is that it opposes all congestion charging. Kenny MacAskill may shake his head, but I heard it on the radio at 7 o'clock this morning and the line was that the Tories and the SNP together oppose congestion charging. Interestingly, today we heard some qualification of that—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2112E192P495C707650", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacAskill, Kenny", "ID": 2112, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenny MacAskill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr MacAskill: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 220.0, "ContributionID": 707650, "EditedText": "The chancellor chooses to spend the money down south. Why did Stansted have a rail link built to improve access and create a better gateway when we have no rail link at Aberdeen, Glasgow or Edinburgh?", "EditedTextHTML": "The chancellor chooses to spend the money down south. Why did Stansted have a rail link built to improve access and create a better gateway when we have no rail link at Aberdeen, Glasgow or Edinburgh?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1908E166P251C707652", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Kerr, Andy", "ID": 1908, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Kilbride" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andy Kerr", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Kerr: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 224.0, "ContributionID": 707652, "EditedText": "Alasdair Morgan had a 24-hour hit for the SNP with his suggestion of putting 1p on tax for transport. However, as soon as he said it, his party bosses were on him like a ton of bricks and told him to withdraw the suggestion. Perhaps that is the route that the SNP wants to go down.", "EditedTextHTML": "Alasdair Morgan had a 24-hour hit for the SNP with his suggestion of putting 1p on tax for transport. However, as soon as he said it, his party bosses were on him like a ton of bricks and told him to withdraw the suggestion. Perhaps that is the route that the SNP wants to go down.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1908E166P251C707655", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Kerr, Andy", "ID": 1908, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Kilbride" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andy Kerr", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Andy Kerr (East Kilbride) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 231.0, "ContributionID": 707655, "EditedText": "We are losing sight of the major environmental issues that are at stake. It is worth reminding ourselves that we cannot simply accept continuing transport growth. In 1987, 51 per cent of people owned cars. Now, the figure is 65 per cent. According to projections, car usage will increase by 53 per cent over the next 30 years. That is a real problem, and I hope that debates such as this, and the work of the Transport and the Environment Committee, will allow us to reflect maturely on the issues and to get away from the games that have been played this morning. The fact is that, while the cost of taking a bus has increased by 24 per cent and that of taking a train has increased by 33 per cent, the cost of using a car has gone down by 5 per cent. Emissions are an issue. Transport is responsible for 32 per cent of emissions, of which 82 per cent are caused by road transport. That is a real environmental issue that must be dealt with. We need to listen to people and take soundings on how we should deal with the situation. We need to reduce traffic on our roads to reduce emissions and meet the international agreement to which this and previous Governments signed up. Our streets are another issue. I am astonished that John Redwood is advocating the removal of traffic safety measures and the raising of speed limits. Communities should be reclaiming the streets, in particular for young people.", "EditedTextHTML": "We are losing sight of the major environmental issues that are at stake. It is worth reminding ourselves that we cannot simply accept continuing transport growth.

In 1987, 51 per cent of people owned cars. Now, the figure is 65 per cent. According to projections, car usage will increase by 53 per cent over the next 30 years. That is a real problem, and I hope that debates such as this, and the work of the Transport and the Environment Committee, will allow us to reflect maturely on the issues and to get away from the games that have been played this morning.

The fact is that, while the cost of taking a bus has increased by 24 per cent and that of taking a train has increased by 33 per cent, the cost of using a car has gone down by 5 per cent.

Emissions are an issue. Transport is responsible for 32 per cent of emissions, of which 82 per cent are caused by road transport. That is a real environmental issue that must be dealt with. We need to listen to people and take soundings on how we should deal with the situation. We need to reduce traffic on our roads to reduce emissions

and meet the international agreement to which this and previous Governments signed up.

Our streets are another issue. I am astonished that John Redwood is advocating the removal of traffic safety measures and the raising of speed limits. Communities should be reclaiming the streets, in particular for young people.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2112E192P495C707656", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacAskill, Kenny", "ID": 2112, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenny MacAskill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr MacAskill: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 233.0, "ContributionID": 707656, "EditedText": "I support what Mr Kerr says about home zones and speed limits, but why are such things reserved matters? Why is the hypothecation of speed camera fines, which the police in Scotland want, a matter reserved to Westminster and dealt with by the Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions? Why are we not competent to deal with speed limits, never mind to decide what we do with speed camera fines?", "EditedTextHTML": "I support what Mr Kerr says about home zones and speed limits, but why are such things reserved matters? Why is the hypothecation of speed camera fines, which the police in Scotland want, a matter reserved to Westminster and dealt with by the Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions? Why are we not competent to deal with speed limits, never mind to decide what we do with speed camera fines?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2099E29P51C707662", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Young, John", "ID": 2099, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Young", "SpeakerDisplayName": "John Young: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 246.0, "ContributionID": 707662, "EditedText": "There was a transport debate in Polmont just before the election at which people from the transport sector, politics and the local community were represented. What came through loud and clear was that they wanted transport to be a top priority. It had to be on the same level as education and health—the three big items, as one speaker put it. Railways are important—no one is denying that they are crucial. However, if we take everything from the road hauliers and put it on the railways, there will be real problems for the road haulage industry. There must be a balance. We should not forget that many foreign truckers who come to this country are on routing orders. In the whisky industry, all the costs within the United Kingdom are paid up to the port of departure, which the foreign companies indicate must be in the south of England. That is a problem. So far, the minister—no doubt instructed by John Prescott's office—has talked about motorway tolls, local government levies, congestion charges and parking charges. There is also the business about ring fencing. Will there or will there not be ring fencing? It is a sort of ring-a-ring o' roses and we all fall down—roads, motorists and everyone else. Shortly, we will have the roads review. Do not hold your breath. Will a public roads building programme be unveiled? Will a priority upgrading be carried out, or will we hear that the public road building programme is at a halt, unless paid for by the private sector? So far, companies have shown reluctance to become involved in major private finance initiatives, despite the Labour Government's invitations.", "EditedTextHTML": "There was a transport debate in Polmont just before the election at which people from the transport sector, politics and the local community were represented. What came through loud and clear was that they wanted transport to be a top priority. It had to be on the same level as education and health—the three big items, as one speaker put it.

Railways are important—no one is denying that they are crucial. However, if we take everything from the road hauliers and put it on the railways, there will be real problems for the road haulage industry. There must be a balance. We should not forget that many foreign truckers who come to this country are on routing orders. In the whisky industry, all the costs within the United Kingdom are paid up to the port of departure, which the foreign companies indicate must be in the south of England. That is a problem.

So far, the minister—no doubt instructed by John Prescott's office—has talked about motorway tolls, local government levies, congestion charges and parking charges. There is also the business about ring fencing. Will there or will there not be ring fencing? It is a sort of ring-a-ring o' roses and we all fall down—roads, motorists and everyone else.

Shortly, we will have the roads review. Do not hold your breath. Will a public roads building programme be unveiled? Will a priority upgrading be carried out, or will we hear that the public road building programme is at a halt, unless paid for by the private sector? So far, companies have shown reluctance to become involved in major private finance initiatives, despite the Labour Government's invitations.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C707663", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bruce Crawford: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 248.0, "ContributionID": 707663, "EditedText": "Will John give way now?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will John give way now?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2099E29P51C707664", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Young, John", "ID": 2099, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Young", "SpeakerDisplayName": "John Young: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 250.0, "ContributionID": 707664, "EditedText": "I am sorry, but I have so little time that I do not propose to give way. The £180 million extension of the M74 into central Glasgow is unlikely to go ahead. There are doubts about the plans to convert the entire M8 from Glasgow to Edinburgh into a six-lane motorway—those plans are also unlikely to go ahead. What about the A77? It is estimated that within six years, 30 lives could be saved and 240 serious accidents avoided for a public purse contribution of £10 million per annum. In the past three years, that killer road has claimed more than 15 lives in more than 40 serious accidents. One highly dangerous 10-mile section, which runs from Fenwick to what is called the Malletsheugh, is used by 35,000 vehicles per day. It is essential that money is spent on that road, which has the worst accident rate in Scotland—there is no question about that. I am told—I have no doubt that the minister will confirm this—that there are five main criteria for designating moneys, which I presume apply to all 17 schemes: economy, safety, environmental impact, accessibility and integration. All five criteria apply to the A77: make no mistake about that. I use public transport every day and always have. This morning, I came with Frank McAveety on public transport. The train was a bit better than usual and the company was very good, but I accept that our public transport is lagging far behind that of our counterparts on the continent. There is no question about that, and it is essential that public transport is brought to the fore. Much has been said about the environment. The environment knows no boundaries and we should make no bones about that. Labour members of Glasgow City Council—some former members of which are here today—discussed making Glasgow a nuclear-free zone. We might as well draw a chalk circle round the bottom of a lamppost, in order to tell dogs that it is a no-peeing zone, as such things cannot be stopped. The main offenders where the real problems are found are the United States, Russia, China, Brazil and Indonesia. We should try to set an example. This is a relatively small country and we should do our best. Scotland makes up 31 per cent of the landmass of the British Isles, but has only 9 per cent of the population. It is obvious that we need around five different transport strategies: one each for the Highlands, the Islands, the north-east, the central belt and the Borders. I have no doubt that the Conservative party in Scotland is the answer to those problems. We are against tolls and we are against the imposition of more taxes. The Liberal Democrats will simply go along with Labour—they want to keep their ministerial seats, and will do and say anything to keep in with Labour. I urge members to support Murray Tosh's excellent motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry, but I have so little time that I do not propose to give way.

The £180 million extension of the M74 into central Glasgow is unlikely to go ahead. There are doubts about the plans to convert the entire M8 from Glasgow to Edinburgh into a six-lane motorway—those plans are also unlikely to go ahead. What about the A77? It is estimated that within six years, 30 lives could be saved and 240 serious accidents avoided for a public purse contribution of £10 million per annum. In the past three years, that killer road has claimed more than 15 lives in more than 40 serious accidents. One highly dangerous 10-mile section, which runs from Fenwick to what is called the Malletsheugh, is used by 35,000 vehicles per day. It is essential that money is spent on that road, which has the worst accident rate in Scotland—there is no question about that.

I am told—I have no doubt that the minister will confirm this—that there are five main criteria for designating moneys, which I presume apply to all 17 schemes: economy, safety, environmental impact, accessibility and integration. All five criteria apply to the A77: make no mistake about that.

I use public transport every day and always have. This morning, I came with Frank McAveety on public transport. The train was a bit better than usual and the company was very good, but I accept that our public transport is lagging far behind that of our counterparts on the continent. There is no question about that, and it is essential that public transport is brought to the fore.

Much has been said about the environment. The environment knows no boundaries and we should make no bones about that. Labour members of Glasgow City Council—some former members of which are here today—discussed making Glasgow a nuclear-free zone. We might as well draw a chalk circle round the bottom of a lamppost, in order to tell dogs that it is a no-peeing zone, as such things cannot be stopped. The main offenders where the real problems are found are the United States, Russia, China, Brazil and Indonesia. We should try to set an example. This is a relatively small country and we should do our best.

Scotland makes up 31 per cent of the landmass of the British Isles, but has only 9 per cent of the population. It is obvious that we need around five different transport strategies: one each for the Highlands, the Islands, the north-east, the central belt and the Borders. I have no doubt that the Conservative party in Scotland is the answer to those problems.

We are against tolls and we are against the imposition of more taxes. The Liberal Democrats will simply go along with Labour—they want to keep their ministerial seats, and will do and say anything to keep in with Labour. I urge members to support Murray Tosh's excellent motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1751E163P286C707669", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Craigie, Cathie", "ID": 1751, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Cumbernauld and Kilsyth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Cathie Craigie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Cathie Craigie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 261.0, "ContributionID": 707669, "EditedText": "Yes, I will—Laughter.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes, I will—[Laughter.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C707672", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 267.0, "ContributionID": 707672, "EditedText": "Be brief, Mr Crawford.", "EditedTextHTML": "Be brief, Mr Crawford.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1751E163P286C707675", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Craigie, Cathie", "ID": 1751, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Cumbernauld and Kilsyth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Cathie Craigie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Cathie Craigie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 273.0, "ContributionID": 707675, "EditedText": "Thank you, Bruce, for that intervention. Scotland needs a transport policy that will deliver and that will tackle the problems that we are experiencing. In delivering that policy, the Executive must work in partnership with the people—with car owners and with all providers of rail and bus services. In Cumbernauld and Kilsyth, which is the area that I represent, we can see the difference made by the Government, local authorities, ScotRail and various bus companies, which are working together to ensure that trains and buses run to meet the needs of the people they serve. New investment will mean improvements to train and bus services. New timetables and more frequent buses and trains mean that public transport will become more attractive and will encourage many more people to leave their cars and to use public transport. However, costs are important to the travelling public, and we should ensure that affordable fares represent value for money. I hope that the Executive, and Sarah Boyack as the responsible minister, will take that on board. I want to talk specifically about the people of Cumbernauld and Kilsyth, who live with one of the most congested roads in Scotland. The A80 runs through the middle of the constituency; members who have travelled on that road will know that it is a nightmare, particularly at peak times. We have waited for improvements for 20 years to that part of the road, which is the missing link in the central Scotland motorway network. Delays on the A80 not only cause disruption to the motorist, but cause accidents and grave disruption in the surrounding towns and villages, when, for whatever reason, cars are forced on to minor roads in order to avoid the hold-ups and delays on the A80. The Tories put off investing in the A80 time and again. They alone are to blame for the congestion that we see—and hear about on the radio—every day in that part of Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you, Bruce, for that intervention.

Scotland needs a transport policy that will deliver and that will tackle the problems that we are experiencing. In delivering that policy, the Executive must work in partnership with the people—with car owners and with all providers of rail and bus services. In Cumbernauld and Kilsyth, which is the area that I represent, we can see the difference made by the Government, local authorities, ScotRail and various bus companies, which are working together to ensure that trains and buses run to meet the needs of the people they serve.

New investment will mean improvements to train and bus services. New timetables and more frequent buses and trains mean that public transport will become more attractive and will encourage many more people to leave their cars and to use public transport. However, costs are important to the travelling public, and we should ensure that affordable fares represent value for money. I hope that the Executive, and Sarah Boyack as the responsible minister, will take that on board.

I want to talk specifically about the people of Cumbernauld and Kilsyth, who live with one of the most congested roads in Scotland. The A80 runs through the middle of the constituency; members who have travelled on that road will know that it is a nightmare, particularly at peak times. We have waited for improvements for 20 years to that part of the road, which is the missing link in the central Scotland motorway network. Delays on the A80 not only cause disruption to the motorist, but cause accidents and grave disruption in the surrounding towns and villages, when, for whatever reason, cars are forced on to minor roads in order to avoid the hold-ups and delays on the A80. The Tories put off investing in the A80 time and again. They alone are to blame for the congestion that we see—and hear about on the radio—every day in that part of Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C707685", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 294.0, "ContributionID": 707685, "EditedText": "If Mr Gibson looks, he will find that the number of kilometres covered by buses on our roads network has been rising steadily. He will find that the number of buses and coaches on our roads has not only risen steadily but is projected to continue to rise steadily. The issue is that passenger use has declined steadily since the 1950s. The issue is not that deregulation caused the decline in bus use, but that bus use declines as prosperity rises and people take to the roads. That is the issue that we must address.", "EditedTextHTML": "If Mr Gibson looks, he will find that the number of kilometres covered by buses on our roads network has been rising steadily. He will find that the number of buses and coaches on our roads has not only risen steadily but is projected to continue to rise steadily. The issue is that passenger use has declined steadily since the 1950s. The issue is not that deregulation caused the decline in bus use, but that bus use declines as prosperity rises and people take to the roads. That is the issue that we must address.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C707691", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 306.0, "ContributionID": 707691, "EditedText": "Order. Kenny Gibson has the floor.", "EditedTextHTML": "Order. Kenny Gibson has the floor.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C707697", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 318.0, "ContributionID": 707697, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1962E35P56C707703", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mundell, David", "ID": 1962, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Mundell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David Mundell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 331.0, "ContributionID": 707703, "EditedText": "Certainly, Elaine. Having read the description of you in today's edition of The Scotsman, I could not but take an intervention from you.", "EditedTextHTML": "Certainly, Elaine. Having read the description of you in today's edition of The Scotsman, I could not but take an intervention

from you.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1768E72P274C707704", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Murray, Elaine", "ID": 1768, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumfries" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Murray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Murray: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 333.0, "ContributionID": 707704, "EditedText": "David mentioned Langholm. Surely he agrees that one of the problems there is the volume of traffic that flows through the town centre and the problems that that causes for public safety. He is stressing the needs of the car driver. His party has said that it is committed to public transport. What would he do to improve public transport and take some of those vehicles off the road?", "EditedTextHTML": "David mentioned Langholm. Surely he agrees that one of the problems there is the volume of traffic that flows through the town centre and the problems that that causes for public safety. He is stressing the needs of the car driver. His party has said that it is committed to public transport. What would he do to improve public transport and take some of those vehicles off the road?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1962E35P56C707705", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mundell, David", "ID": 1962, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Mundell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David Mundell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 335.0, "ContributionID": 707705, "EditedText": "I am about to address public transport in rural areas. Like Elaine, I said at a public meeting that I am committed to a bypass for Langholm. I was interested to see that, in reply to Elaine's written question about improvements on the A7, the minister said that that bypass would not happen in the foreseeable future. Travelling within Edinburgh is not a problem, but travelling to Edinburgh from the south-west is a major problem. A car is the only practical solution. I have tried to use a train service directly from our regional office in Dumfries. It would take three and a half hours for a journey which, as the crow flies, must be about 80 miles. Alternatively, I could go to Lockerbie station, but I would be unable to get a train that allows me to be here for the start of parliamentary business—and I would have to leave before its conclusion. I am not holding myself out as the requirement for services, but it is not unreasonable to suggest that business people would want to come to Edinburgh for a conference where registration might be between 9 am and 9.30 am.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am about to address public transport in rural areas. Like Elaine, I said at a public meeting that I am committed to a bypass for Langholm. I was interested to see that, in reply to Elaine's written question about improvements on the A7, the minister said that that bypass would not happen in the foreseeable future.

Travelling within Edinburgh is not a problem, but travelling to Edinburgh from the south-west is a major problem. A car is the only practical solution. I have tried to use a train service directly from our regional office in Dumfries. It would take three and a half hours for a journey which, as the crow flies, must be about 80 miles. Alternatively, I could go to Lockerbie station, but I would be unable to get a train that allows me to be here for the start of parliamentary business—and I would have to leave before its conclusion.

I am not holding myself out as the requirement for services, but it is not unreasonable to suggest that business people would want to come to Edinburgh for a conference where registration might be between 9 am and 9.30 am.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1752E75P296C707706", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jamieson, Cathy", "ID": 1752, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Cathy Jamieson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Cathy Jamieson (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab) rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 337.0, "ContributionID": 707706, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C707708", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 341.0, "ContributionID": 707708, "EditedText": "Cathy Jamieson.", "EditedTextHTML": "Cathy Jamieson.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C707712", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 350.0, "ContributionID": 707712, "EditedText": "Tapadh leibh, Iain. 'Se obair latha, tòiseachadh. As the Gaels say; getting started can be a whole day's work. When speaking in Gaelic, members should provide a brief translation. If they wish to give a full speech in Gaelic, members should give the Presiding Officer 48 hours' advance notice.", "EditedTextHTML": "Tapadh leibh, Iain. 'Se obair latha, tòiseachadh.

As the Gaels say; getting started can be a whole day's work. When speaking in Gaelic, members should provide a brief translation. If they wish to give a full speech in Gaelic, members should give the Presiding Officer 48 hours' advance notice.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2085E206P337C707713", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Munro, John Farquhar", "ID": 2085, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ross, Skye and Inverness West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Farquhar Munro", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Munro: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 352.0, "ContributionID": 707713, "EditedText": "Thank you. I introduced a few words of Gaelic as a matter of principle. I know that in the weeks and months ahead the Parliament will make simultaneous translation available if members wish to use the language of the garden of Eden in this magnificent building.I will give a brief translation of what I want to say in this transport debate. I live in a rural area of Scotland where toll charges have already been imposed on a trunk road—the Skye bridge crossing. The tolls there were introduced by the Tory Administration and it seems strange to me that we are debating a motion lodged by the Tories to address that situation. In the motion they suggest that we abolish the concept of toll charging on trunk roads. There would seem to be a difference of opinion between them and the previous Tory Administration. I hope that the Conservatives will hold to the view in the motion when we come to debate the sensitive issue of the Skye bridge tolls. Mr Mundell is very much in line with my thoughts on integrated transport and rural transport issues. He mentioned the lack of congestion and pollution on rural roads. Congestion and pollution are mentioned in relation to cities or in an urban context, but they are not something that we in rural Scotland suffer from. I do not see much pollution or congestion on our Highland roads outside the main urban centres. Serious consideration should be given to the periphery of rural areas. I can think of areas in Skye where the road system is deteriorating. The road systems in the west Highlands and the far north have deteriorated. There cannot be an effective and efficient integrated transport system unless there is the infrastructure that goes with that. It is not surprising that our Highland roads are sadly in need of attention; over the past four years the budgets that are available to the council in the area have been reduced dramatically. Highland Council's revenue budget has fallen from £28 million to £18 million. Its capital budget has fallen from £16 million to £3.6 million. If I tell members that it costs £1.2 million to build a two-lane road, they will imagine what little attention will be given to roads in those rural areas. I have said that rural areas do not have problems of congestion and pollution. Mr Young said that the Tories have all the answers. I wonder whether they do. I would be glad to hear what their proposals are, because much of the deterioration and problems that we have now are as a result of 18 years of Tory administration. Yesterday, some Liberal Democrat colleagues and I delivered a petition on fuel prices. It had been circulated in the Highlands for two or three weeks prior to the election when, I am pleased to say, 18,000 people signed it. By the time we delivered it yesterday that figure was in excess of 20,000. We delivered it to the Treasury and I hope that Chancellor of the Exchequer Gordon Brown will consider doing something about the heavy fuel costs in Scotland and the adverse effects that they have on rural Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you. I introduced a few words of Gaelic as a matter of principle. I know that in the weeks and months ahead the Parliament will make simultaneous translation available if members wish to use the language of the garden

of Eden in this magnificent building.

I will give a brief translation of what I want to say in this transport debate.

I live in a rural area of Scotland where toll charges have already been imposed on a trunk road—the Skye bridge crossing. The tolls there were introduced by the Tory Administration and it seems strange to me that we are debating a motion lodged by the Tories to address that situation. In the motion they suggest that we abolish the concept of toll charging on trunk roads. There would seem to be a difference of opinion between them and the previous Tory Administration.

I hope that the Conservatives will hold to the view in the motion when we come to debate the sensitive issue of the Skye bridge tolls.

Mr Mundell is very much in line with my thoughts on integrated transport and rural transport issues. He mentioned the lack of congestion and pollution on rural roads. Congestion and pollution are mentioned in relation to cities or in an urban context, but they are not something that we in rural Scotland suffer from. I do not see much pollution or congestion on our Highland roads outside the main urban centres.

Serious consideration should be given to the periphery of rural areas. I can think of areas in Skye where the road system is deteriorating. The road systems in the west Highlands and the far north have deteriorated. There cannot be an effective and efficient integrated transport system unless there is the infrastructure that goes with that.

It is not surprising that our Highland roads are sadly in need of attention; over the past four years the budgets that are available to the council in the area have been reduced dramatically. Highland Council's revenue budget has fallen from £28 million to £18 million. Its capital budget has fallen from £16 million to £3.6 million. If I tell members that it costs £1.2 million to build a two-lane road, they will imagine what little attention will be given to roads in those rural areas.

I have said that rural areas do not have problems of congestion and pollution. Mr Young said that the Tories have all the answers. I wonder whether they do. I would be glad to hear what their proposals are, because much of the deterioration and problems that we have now are as a result of 18 years of Tory administration.

Yesterday, some Liberal Democrat colleagues and I delivered a petition on fuel prices. It had been circulated in the Highlands for two or three weeks prior to the election when, I am pleased to say, 18,000 people signed it. By the time we delivered it yesterday that figure was in excess of

20,000. We delivered it to the Treasury and I hope that Chancellor of the Exchequer Gordon Brown will consider doing something about the heavy fuel costs in Scotland and the adverse effects that they have on rural Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1916E38P70C707714", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Ben", "ID": 1916, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ben Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ben Wallace (North-East Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 354.0, "ContributionID": 707714, "EditedText": "Did Mr Munro draw to the attention of the chancellor the Liberal Democrat policy of having an 8 per cent real-terms increase in the fuel duty escalator, and its plans to further tax bigger engines such as those used in Land Rovers in the far outer reaches of Scotland? Will moves be made to change that policy?", "EditedTextHTML": "Did Mr Munro draw to the attention of the chancellor the Liberal Democrat policy of having an 8 per cent real-terms increase in the fuel duty escalator, and its plans to further tax bigger engines such as those used in Land Rovers in the far outer reaches of Scotland? Will moves be made to change that policy?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C707716", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ms Patricia Ferguson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 358.0, "ContributionID": 707716, "EditedText": "Please wind up now.", "EditedTextHTML": "Please wind up now.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1778E91P257C707720", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Eadie, Helen", "ID": 1778, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dunfermline East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Helen Eadie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Helen Eadie (Dunfermline East) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 369.0, "ContributionID": 707720, "EditedText": "I urge members to pause for a moment and remind themselves about one of the key issues of this debate, not just here in Scotland or the UK, but across the world. We are given a salutary reminder in The Scotsman of this morning, following the publication by the United Nations \"of the most authoritative assessment yet of the crisis facing mankind. Severe water shortages, the effects of global warming and chronic air pollution are among the ‘full-scale emergencies' threatening the planet . . . The UK is an acknowledged world leader in global efforts to tackle climate change\". Air pollution and emissions are among the prime causes of climate change. It is eight years since the Rio earth summit, and the Scottish Executive is firm in its view that doing nothing is not an option. There can be few things in Scotland today that deserve as high a place on the Scottish Executive's agenda as transport strategy, the stark contrast between congestion in city centres and the problem of access to transport in rural and semi-rural areas, and the crucial issue of peripherality in the wider European picture. How are we to embrace the big-picture issues and integrate them into our parochial picture? We desperately need strategies to tackle those issues. I support the Executive amendment in the name of Sarah Boyack and I am certain that big issues and parochial issues alike will be in excellent hands with her. In memoriam, lest we forget the Tory legacy, we should ask ourselves who got us into this traffic jam. The Tories now have no strategy and no policy. Kenny MacAskill used the words \"quite disingenuous\" to describe the Tories' approach to transport matters. Who introduced the fuel duty escalator in 1994? Who introduced the tolls on the Skye road bridge that have since been cut by Labour? Who privatised and broke up the rail network? So desperate is the situation now that no layperson knows who is in charge.", "EditedTextHTML": "I urge members to pause for a moment and remind themselves about one of the key issues of this debate, not just here in Scotland or the UK, but across the world.

We are given a salutary reminder in The Scotsman of this morning, following the publication by the United Nations

\"of the most authoritative assessment yet of the crisis facing mankind.

Severe water shortages, the effects of global warming and chronic air pollution are among the ‘full-scale emergencies' threatening the planet . . . The UK is an acknowledged world leader in global efforts to tackle climate change\".

Air pollution and emissions are among the prime causes of climate change. It is eight years since the Rio earth summit, and the Scottish Executive is firm in its view that doing nothing is not an option.

There can be few things in Scotland today that deserve as high a place on the Scottish Executive's agenda as transport strategy, the stark contrast between congestion in city centres and the problem of access to transport in rural and semi-rural areas, and the crucial issue of peripherality in the wider European picture. How are we to embrace the big-picture issues and integrate them into our parochial picture? We desperately need strategies to tackle those issues. I support the Executive amendment in the name of Sarah Boyack and I am certain that big issues and parochial issues alike will be in excellent hands with her.

In memoriam, lest we forget the Tory legacy, we should ask ourselves who got us into this traffic jam. The Tories now have no strategy and no policy. Kenny MacAskill used the words \"quite disingenuous\" to describe the Tories' approach to transport matters. Who introduced the fuel duty escalator in 1994? Who introduced the tolls on the Skye road bridge that have since been cut by Labour? Who privatised and broke up the rail network? So desperate is the situation now that no layperson knows who is in charge.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C707723", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 375.0, "ContributionID": 707723, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1882E175P456C707728", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ingram, Adam", "ID": 1882, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Adam Ingram", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Adam Ingram (South of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 387.0, "ContributionID": 707728, "EditedText": "A great deal of lip service is paid by unionist politicians to the need for an integrated transport network to serve Scotland's social and economic needs. The reality is that the failure of successive Tory and Labour Governments to invest in infrastructure projects and public transport is leading to a disintegration of our transport links and services. Over the past 10 years the volume of traffic on the roads in Scotland has increased by 25 per cent and it is set to increase by a further 25 per cent in the next 10 years. Despite that, Labour will not prioritise investment in roads programmes. Roads expenditure has been cut savagely since Labour came to power. Current spending plans for motorways and trunk roads are a mere £50 million over the first three years of this Parliament. We await the long-delayed strategic roads review. I hope that its outcome will be a substantial increase in the budget so that urgently needed projects such as the upgrading of the A77 between Glasgow and Kilmarnock are given the go-ahead. I have little confidence that that will be the outcome, however, given that a series of pronouncements by Labour politicians suggest that road spending will continue to be low. The prevalent attitude is typified by George Foulkes, the Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley MP, who dismissed roads as an issue during the election campaign and suggested that Labour was happy to leave it to the SNP. Labour is making two fundamental mistakes in disregarding the fact that, after years of Tory neglect of public transport, increasing numbers of people depend on cars, and the fact that the cuts to road improvement programmes are having a severe impact on road safety and economic development. The situation in Ayrshire illustrates that. The A77 is the main road artery connecting Ayrshire to Glasgow; Mrs McIntosh has already said how dangerous that road is. It is used every day by 37,000 vehicles—that is 7,000 over its capacity. By 2005 an increase of a further 8,000 vehicles a day is expected. The proposed PFI to build a Glasgow south orbital route with a link to the A77 would add another 9,000 vehicles. If the Executive fails to bring forward a plan to upgrade that road immediately, it will be guilty of deliberately neglecting public safety. In more general terms, the drive to regenerate the Ayrshire economy has been severely hampered by the lack of trunk road development. To the north we need an upgrade of the A737 to connect it to the M8. In the south and west the narrow and aging road network does not help the tourism industry that towns such as Maybole and Girvan need to develop. Girvan has the highest level of unemployment in Scotland, and the lack of a bypass is causing severe structural damage to the town centre of Maybole. In the east, the former mining communities of Cumnock and Doon Valley are suffering high unemployment and rapid depopulation that could be stemmed if cheap and affordable public transport links and better roads were available so that people could travel to areas where there are jobs, such as Ayr and Prestwick. The greatest economic opportunity for Ayrshire is the development of Prestwick airport now that the fifth freedom rights have been granted. There is a missing link there too—a fast corridor to the M74 is needed to open up the north of England market and to ensure that Prestwick becomes a major European air freight hub as well as a rival to Manchester for passenger services. I am afraid that the next four years may see little or nothing of that agenda addressed, let alone fulfilled, while Westminster holds the Parliament's purse-strings. Roll on independence.", "EditedTextHTML": "A great deal of lip service is paid by unionist politicians to the need for an integrated transport network to serve Scotland's social and economic needs. The reality is that the failure of successive Tory and Labour Governments to invest in infrastructure projects and public transport is leading to a disintegration of our transport links and services. Over the past 10 years the volume of traffic on the roads in Scotland has increased by 25 per cent and it is set to increase by a further 25 per cent in the next 10 years. Despite that, Labour will not prioritise investment in roads programmes. Roads expenditure has been cut savagely since Labour came to power. Current spending plans for motorways and trunk roads are a mere £50 million over the first three years of this Parliament.

We await the long-delayed strategic roads review. I hope that its outcome will be a substantial increase in the budget so that urgently needed projects such as the upgrading of the A77 between Glasgow and Kilmarnock are given the go-ahead. I have little confidence that that will be the outcome, however, given that a series of pronouncements by Labour politicians suggest that road spending will continue to be low. The prevalent attitude is typified by George Foulkes, the Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley MP, who dismissed roads as an issue during the election campaign and suggested that Labour was happy to leave it to the SNP.

Labour is making two fundamental mistakes in disregarding the fact that, after years of Tory neglect of public transport, increasing numbers of people depend on cars, and the fact that the cuts to road improvement programmes are having a severe impact on road safety and economic development. The situation in Ayrshire illustrates that. The A77 is the main road artery connecting Ayrshire to Glasgow; Mrs McIntosh has already said how dangerous that road is. It is used every day by 37,000 vehicles—that is 7,000 over its capacity. By 2005 an increase of a further 8,000 vehicles a day is expected. The proposed PFI to build a Glasgow south orbital route with a link to the A77 would add another 9,000 vehicles. If the Executive fails to bring forward a plan to upgrade that road immediately, it will be guilty of deliberately neglecting public safety.

In more general terms, the drive to regenerate the Ayrshire economy has been severely hampered by the lack of trunk road development. To the north we need an upgrade of the A737 to connect it to the M8. In the south and west the narrow and aging road network does not help the tourism industry that towns such as Maybole and Girvan need to develop. Girvan has the highest level of unemployment in Scotland, and the lack of a bypass is causing severe structural damage to the town centre of Maybole. In the east, the former mining communities of Cumnock and Doon Valley are suffering high unemployment and rapid depopulation that could be stemmed if cheap and affordable public transport links and better roads were available so that people could travel to areas where there are jobs, such as Ayr and Prestwick.

The greatest economic opportunity for Ayrshire is the development of Prestwick airport now that the fifth freedom rights have been granted. There is a missing link there too—a fast corridor to the M74 is needed to open up the north of England market and to ensure that Prestwick becomes a major European air freight hub as well as a rival to Manchester for passenger services.

I am afraid that the next four years may see little or nothing of that agenda addressed, let alone fulfilled, while Westminster holds the Parliament's purse-strings. Roll on independence.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2066E64P88C707732", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McGrigor, Jamie", "ID": 2066, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie McGrigor", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Jamie McGrigor (Highlands and Islands) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 397.0, "ContributionID": 707732, "EditedText": "The Scottish Parliament must recognise that Scotland has vast areas that are sparsely populated, with remote communities that are being crucified by the present policies. It is interesting to note that in Canada, which shares some rural problems with Scotland, a litre of petrol is 20p and car tax is £50. In the Highlands and Islands, petrol is 80p a litre, which is four times as much, and car tax is £150, which is three times as much. Frankly, it would not be surprising if we had another Highland clearance to Canada soon. It is vital that people understand that, in many areas outside the central belt, the car is a necessity, not a luxury. Although there is public transport in some localities, it is often inconvenient to use, which results in under-utilised buses. What is more polluting than an empty bus? Why should the people who most need their cars have to pay the highest fuel costs in Europe? It does not make sense to them. It is the Executive's responsibility to redress the serious imbalance. I was surprised to hear George Lyon and Alasdair Morrison state last week that the tourism figures for 1999 were not as bad as had been expected and were no worse than last year. Caledonian MacBrayne's recent figures expose that that was not the case in the north-west of Scotland. They show an overall decline of 20,911 passengers, 4,117 cars and 1,263 commercial vehicles. That comes on top of the fact that last year's figures were considerably down on those for 1997. Any downturn in the economies of the fragile island communities that are served by CalMac could have devastating consequences, especially as those areas are already deep in recession because of the disastrous state of agriculture, fishing, the tweed industry and tourism. The key to helping rural communities to help themselves lies in low fuel costs and improved infrastructure. Previous schemes such as the Vattersay causeway, the Scalpay bridge and the Berneray causeway—which were all initiated by Conservative Administrations—have made a huge difference to people's lives, but we must not stop there; we must keep improving access with new and better roads. One such improvement would be a new road link from Tolsta to Ness on the Isle of Lewis. That link was first mooted 150 years ago, but the plan was never carried out. The road would be only nine miles long, but it would link up the whole coastline of the island and would be of great benefit to the local economy. A major problem that has recently been brought to my attention—I see Alasdair Morrison laughing—and which is particularly expensive is the damage that is being done to rural roads by enormously heavy timber lorries.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Scottish Parliament must recognise that Scotland has vast areas that are sparsely populated, with remote communities that are being crucified by the present policies.

It is interesting to note that in Canada, which shares some rural problems with Scotland, a litre of petrol is 20p and car tax is £50. In the Highlands and Islands, petrol is 80p a litre, which is four times as much, and car tax is £150, which is three times as much. Frankly, it would not be surprising if we had another Highland clearance to Canada soon.

It is vital that people understand that, in many areas outside the central belt, the car is a necessity, not a luxury. Although there is public transport in some localities, it is often inconvenient to use, which results in under-utilised buses. What is more polluting than an empty bus? Why should the people who most need their cars have to pay the highest fuel costs in Europe? It does not make sense to them. It is the Executive's responsibility to redress the serious imbalance.

I was surprised to hear George Lyon and Alasdair Morrison state last week that the tourism figures for 1999 were not as bad as had been expected and were no worse than last year. Caledonian MacBrayne's recent figures expose that that was not the case in the north-west of Scotland. They show an overall decline of 20,911 passengers, 4,117 cars and 1,263 commercial vehicles. That comes on top of the fact that last

year's figures were considerably down on those for 1997. Any downturn in the economies of the fragile island communities that are served by CalMac could have devastating consequences, especially as those areas are already deep in recession because of the disastrous state of agriculture, fishing, the tweed industry and tourism.

The key to helping rural communities to help themselves lies in low fuel costs and improved infrastructure. Previous schemes such as the Vattersay causeway, the Scalpay bridge and the Berneray causeway—which were all initiated by Conservative Administrations—have made a huge difference to people's lives, but we must not stop there; we must keep improving access with new and better roads. One such improvement would be a new road link from Tolsta to Ness on the Isle of Lewis. That link was first mooted 150 years ago, but the plan was never carried out. The road would be only nine miles long, but it would link up the whole coastline of the island and would be of great benefit to the local economy.

A major problem that has recently been brought to my attention—I see Alasdair Morrison laughing—and which is particularly expensive is the damage that is being done to rural roads by enormously heavy timber lorries.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C707738", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Annabel Goldie (West of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 410.0, "ContributionID": 707738, "EditedText": "Will Mr McNeil give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr McNeil give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1814E135P516C707756", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Fabiani, Linda", "ID": 1814, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Linda Fabiani", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Linda Fabiani: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 447.0, "ContributionID": 707756, "EditedText": "Are you saying that it was not the civil servants who made the mistake?", "EditedTextHTML": "Are you saying that it was not the civil servants who made the mistake?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C707761", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie (Lothians) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 458.0, "ContributionID": 707761, "EditedText": "I welcome the fact that the debate has given the Parliament an opportunity to discuss some of the big issues in transport policy in Scotland and has given members from all parties the opportunity to raise local concerns. That balance has been welcome. The debate has confirmed that on the big picture no amount of rhetoric can hide the fact that Labour does not give transport the priority that it deserves. Since it came to power, Labour at Westminster has pursued a vendetta against the motorist. The road user is the fall guy for levying taxation by stealth. It is intent on taxing ordinary people off the road, putting business costs up and thereby damaging job prospects. Gordon Brown has imposed the highest fuel taxes in history and we have the most expensive petrol and diesel in Europe—£17 out of every £20 spent on fuel is tax. Labour has put its foot on the fuel escalator since coming to power. Our hauliers have been hit particularly hard by fuel taxes and by vehicle excise duty, which stands at 11 times the level that applies in France. Fuel taxes are a blunt instrument, hitting particularly hard people who live in fragile rural communities where the car is a necessity, not a luxury. I welcome the fact that members from all parties have expressed concern about that. welcome even the Liberal Democrats' petition to the chancellor as one way of addressing the issue. It is a conversion on the Damascus road, given that their earlier stated policies would have pushed up fuel prices for road users in Scotland far more than even this Government has done.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the fact that the debate has given the Parliament an opportunity to discuss some of the big issues in transport policy in Scotland and has given members from all parties the opportunity to raise local concerns. That balance has been welcome.

The debate has confirmed that on the big picture no amount of rhetoric can hide the fact that Labour does not give transport the priority that it deserves. Since it came to power, Labour at Westminster has pursued a vendetta against the motorist. The road user is the fall guy for levying taxation by stealth. It is intent on taxing ordinary people off the road, putting business costs up and thereby damaging job prospects. Gordon Brown has imposed the highest fuel taxes in history and we have the most expensive petrol and diesel in Europe—£17 out of every £20 spent on fuel is tax. Labour has put its foot on the fuel escalator since coming to power.

Our hauliers have been hit particularly hard by fuel taxes and by vehicle excise duty, which stands at 11 times the level that applies in France. Fuel taxes are a blunt instrument, hitting particularly hard people who live in fragile rural communities where the car is a necessity, not a luxury. I welcome the fact that members from all parties have expressed concern about that. welcome even the Liberal Democrats' petition to the chancellor as one way of addressing the issue. It is a conversion on the Damascus road, given that their earlier stated policies would have pushed

up fuel prices for road users in Scotland far more than even this Government has done.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1931E120P189C707766", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Muldoon, Bristow", "ID": 1931, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Livingston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bristow Muldoon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bristow Muldoon rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 468.0, "ContributionID": 707766, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C707767", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 470.0, "ContributionID": 707767, "EditedText": "I will give way in a moment.In the United Kingdom as a whole, of the £32 billion that the Government raised from motoring taxes last year, less than one fifth went back into the transport network. That has led to Labour's slashing the roads budget.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will give way in a moment.

In the United Kingdom as a whole, of the £32 billion that the Government raised from motoring taxes last year, less than one fifth went back into the transport network. That has led to Labour's slashing the roads budget.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C707769", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 474.0, "ContributionID": 707769, "EditedText": "Yes. Our motion says quite clearly what we should do. The United Kingdom Government—because we need a unionist transport policy that reflects Scotland's needs as part of the United Kingdom—should increase expenditure and allocate a higher proportion of the total taxes already raised from motorists and road users to the transport budget. By dint of the application of the Barnett formula, that would ensure an increase in the Scottish block, which the Minister for Transport and the Environment could use to meet Scotland's transport priorities. It is as simple as that. If the Labour party at national level were not failing on the big-picture issues—failing to tackle soaring welfare bills in the budget—there would be more finance to tackle Scotland's basic transport needs. The Conservative party is committed to ending the annual automatic fuel duty escalator. We say that enough is enough. The Scottish Executive should use its influence and tell the chancellor to press the emergency stop button on the escalator before he does more damage to our economy. As I said in response to an earlier question, we think that the chancellor should be told to give transport spending as a whole far higher priority in the public spending round than it receives at present. However, that does not appear to be the Scottish Executive's intention.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes. Our motion says quite clearly what we should do. The United Kingdom Government—because we need a unionist transport policy that reflects Scotland's needs as part of the United Kingdom—should increase expenditure and allocate a higher proportion of the total taxes already raised from motorists and road users to the transport budget. By dint of the application of the Barnett formula, that would ensure an increase in the Scottish block, which the Minister for Transport and the Environment could use to meet Scotland's transport priorities. It is as simple as that. If the Labour party at national level were not failing on the big-picture issues—failing to tackle soaring welfare bills in the budget—there would be more finance to tackle Scotland's basic transport needs.

The Conservative party is committed to ending the annual automatic fuel duty escalator. We say that enough is enough. The Scottish Executive should use its influence and tell the chancellor to press the emergency stop button on the escalator before he does more damage to our economy. As I said in response to an earlier question, we think that the chancellor should be told to give transport spending as a whole far higher priority in the public spending round than it receives at present. However, that does not appear to be the Scottish Executive's intention.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5921342+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C707771", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 478.0, "ContributionID": 707771, "EditedText": "No, I will move on before coming back to the member. Far from doing either of the things that I have suggested, the Executive intends to exacerbate the situation by introducing tolls, taxes and charges on Scotland's motorists and road users. The Executive's consultation paper proposes tolls for travelling on our motorways—not just on our new roads—and charging people for using roads that their taxes have already paid for. It also proposes tolls for entering our cities and new taxes for parking at places of work. Mr Kenneth Macintosh (Eastwood) (Lab)rose—", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I will move on before coming back to the member.

Far from doing either of the things that I have suggested, the Executive intends to exacerbate the situation by introducing tolls, taxes and charges on Scotland's motorists and road users. The Executive's consultation paper proposes tolls for travelling on our motorways—not just on our new roads—and charging people for using roads that their taxes have already paid for. It also proposes tolls for entering our cities and new taxes for parking at places of work.

Mr Kenneth Macintosh (Eastwood) (Lab)

rose—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5921342+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2108E50P256C707774", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macintosh, Ken", "ID": 2108, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Eastwood" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ken Macintosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Macintosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 484.0, "ContributionID": 707774, "EditedText": "Will Mr McLetchie answer Bristow Muldoon's question? If the Conservatives intend to make transport a priority, which public services would they cut? They cannot simply take the money from England, or promote one priority without demoting another. Which public services would pay—welfare and social services, education or the health service?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr McLetchie answer Bristow Muldoon's question? If the Conservatives intend to make transport a priority, which public services would they cut? They cannot simply take the money from England, or promote one priority without demoting another. Which public services would pay—welfare and social services, education or the health service?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5921342+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C707775", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 486.0, "ContributionID": 707775, "EditedText": "I have already answered the question. If the United Kingdom as a whole gives higher priority to transport in overall public spending, additional resources will be available here in Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have already answered the question. If the United Kingdom as a whole gives higher priority to transport in overall public spending, additional resources will be available

here in Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5921342+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2112E192P495C707778", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacAskill, Kenny", "ID": 2112, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenny MacAskill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr MacAskill: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 492.0, "ContributionID": 707778, "EditedText": "How does the member propose that by 2005 Scottish cities should meet the air quality directives and address the problem of environmental pollution that we are suffering in urban areas?", "EditedTextHTML": "How does the member propose that by 2005 Scottish cities should meet the air quality directives and address the problem of environmental pollution that we are suffering in urban areas?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5921342+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C707785", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 507.0, "ContributionID": 707785, "EditedText": "On a point of order. Repeatedly, the minister, who is reading from a typed speech, says \"you\". It is one thing when mere back benchers like me use the term, but it is atrocious that a minister should do so.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. Repeatedly, the minister, who is reading from a typed speech, says \"you\". It is one thing when mere back benchers like me use the term, but it is atrocious that a minister should do so.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5921342+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C707779", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 494.0, "ContributionID": 707779, "EditedText": "There is no proof that higher taxes to enter our cities will achieve that. Sensible physical traffic management measures, the development of alternatives to the car and the development of park-and-ride schemes are what is needed. I was interested to hear one member's comments on park-and-ride schemes. We in Edinburgh have been waiting years for such schemes. While Mr Begg has been wasting millions on consultancy fees and reports, the park- and-ride schemes have lain in abeyance. That is the reality in this city. The Executive's policy of city entry charges is built on a lie. Experiments that have been carried out in cities such as Leicester have suggested that the rate would have to be set at £8 per day before it had any effect. I find it hard to believe that even this Executive is suggesting charges at that level. Workplace parking falls into the same category. We are told in the paper on congestion that employees enjoy free parking. That is nonsense. Workplace parking is already taxed through the business rates system. That amounts to £1,000 per annum on rateable value in cities such as Edinburgh. People in Edinburgh are already paying more than £500 per parking space—what will an extra £100 do to reduce congestion? Nothing, I suggest. In the same Scotland on Sunday article that I quoted earlier, Mr Begg said that \"over the last twenty years there has been no change in rush hour traffic volumes into Edinburgh\". If he does not believe that the volume of rush-hour congestion is increasing in Edinburgh, why are these new taxes being presented as necessary and inevitable? We need to improve public transport and provide alternatives. We do not need to bleed the motorist dry to do so. The Executive is trying to con the public into believing that its taxes will relieve congestion, to disguise the fact that transport is so low on its priorities list that it will not fund improvements to our system without extra tax revenues. That is why transport should have a higher UK priority and why I want Lothian Region Transport to be sold off to fund the improvements that are set out in the Government's local transport strategy. Malcolm Chisholm also talked about improvements in local transport, but our proposal would cause the improvements to be evident in a few years, not the 60 years that Malcolm's dividend cheque drip feed would mean. I will finish my speech now as I am aware of the pressure of time. I am sorry that I have been unable to let Tricia Marwick ask her question. Transport is a low priority for this Government. As Murray Tosh said in his opening speech, the question is one of balance. The balance has gone too far against the motorist, the haulier and other road users. It is time to correct the balance, to give transport its fair share of national resources. Our motion would ensure that, and I ask members to support it.", "EditedTextHTML": "There is no proof that higher taxes to enter our cities will achieve that. Sensible physical traffic management measures, the development of alternatives to the car and the development of park-and-ride schemes are what is needed. I was interested to hear one member's comments on park-and-ride schemes. We in Edinburgh have been waiting years for such schemes. While Mr Begg has been wasting millions on consultancy fees and reports, the park- and-ride schemes have lain in abeyance. That is the reality in this city.

The Executive's policy of city entry charges is built on a lie. Experiments that have been carried out in cities such as Leicester have suggested that the rate would have to be set at £8 per day before it had any effect. I find it hard to believe that even this Executive is suggesting charges at that level.

Workplace parking falls into the same category. We are told in the paper on congestion that employees enjoy free parking. That is nonsense. Workplace parking is already taxed through the business rates system. That amounts to £1,000 per annum on rateable value in cities such as Edinburgh. People in Edinburgh are already paying more than £500 per parking space—what will an extra £100 do to reduce congestion? Nothing, I suggest. In the same Scotland on Sunday article that I quoted earlier, Mr Begg said that

\"over the last twenty years there has been no change in rush hour traffic volumes into Edinburgh\".

If he does not believe that the volume of rush-hour congestion is increasing in Edinburgh, why are these new taxes being presented as necessary and inevitable?

We need to improve public transport and provide alternatives. We do not need to bleed the motorist dry to do so. The Executive is trying to con the public into believing that its taxes will relieve congestion, to disguise the fact that transport is so low on its priorities list that it will not fund improvements to our system without extra tax revenues. That is why transport should have a higher UK priority and why I want Lothian Region Transport to be sold off to fund the improvements that are set out in the Government's local transport strategy. Malcolm Chisholm also talked about improvements in local transport, but our proposal would cause the improvements to be evident in a few years, not the 60 years that Malcolm's dividend cheque drip feed would mean.

I will finish my speech now as I am aware of the pressure of time. I am sorry that I have been unable to let Tricia Marwick ask her question.

Transport is a low priority for this Government. As Murray Tosh said in his opening speech, the question is one of balance. The balance has gone too far against the motorist, the haulier and other road users. It is time to correct the balance, to give transport its fair share of national resources. Our motion would ensure that, and I ask members to support it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5921342+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2112E192P495C707781", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacAskill, Kenny", "ID": 2112, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenny MacAskill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr MacAskill: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 499.0, "ContributionID": 707781, "EditedText": "On a point of order. An allegation has been made, that I said that I supported road pricing. I did not say that. I would like Sarah Boyack to withdraw her remark.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. An allegation has been made, that I said that I supported road pricing. I did not say that. I would like Sarah Boyack to withdraw her remark.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5921342+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2228E151P202C707789", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26802, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 513.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 513.0, "ID": 26802, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McCabe, Tom", "ID": 2228, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Tom McCabe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Parliament (Mr Tom McCabe): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 517.0, "ContributionID": 707789, "EditedText": "The motion sets out the business for next week and the provisional business for the following week. In the afternoon of Wednesday 22 September, there will be a debate on an Executive motion on tourism. That will be followed by any motions lodged by the Parliamentary Bureau in respect of Scottish statutory instruments, which will be taken without debate, and any procedural motions that are to be considered by the Parliament. Decision time will take place at 5 pm. After decision time there will be a members' business debate on motion S1M-126 on Stobhill Hospital, in the name of Mr Paul Martin. On Thursday 23 September, business will begin at 9.30 am with a debate on an Executive motion on crime prevention. That debate replaces the debate on a manufacturing and industrial strategy for Scotland that was announced as provisional business last week, which will now take place on 29 September. On conclusion of the debate on crime prevention, I will move a further business motion for the ensuing weeks. The afternoon will start with question time at2.30 pm, followed by open question time at 3 pm and a debate on an Executive motion on the voluntary sector at 3.15 pm. That will be followed by any motions lodged by the Parliamentary Bureau on SSIs, which are to be taken without debate. Decision time will take place at 5 pm, and on this occasion there will be no members' business. The business for the following week is, as always, provisional. However, every attempt will be made to hold to the announced business. On Wednesday 29 September, it is proposed that the substantive business should be a debate on an Executive motion on a manufacturing and industrial strategy for Scotland. Decision time will take place at 5 pm, followed by a members' debate on a subject that is yet to be announced. On Thursday 30 September, the first item of business will be a non-Executive business debate on a motion from the Scottish National party; the topic is yet to be announced. Immediately before lunch, I will move a further business motion. The afternoon will begin with question time, followed by open question time at 3 pm. That will be followed by the debate on stage 1 of the Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill and the financial resolution required in relation to the bill. On both days, provision will be made to enable the Parliament to consider any motions lodged by the Parliamentary Bureau in respect of SSIs and other procedural motions required to be considered by the Parliament. Decision time will take place at 5 pm, followed by a members' business debate on a subject that is yet to be announced. I move,That the Parliament agrees the following programme of business— Wednesday 22 September 19992.30 pm Debate on an Executive Motion on Tourism followed by Parliamentary Bureau motions 5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business: Debate on the subject of motion S1M-126 Paul Martin – Stobhill Hospital (for text of motion, see Section F of Business Bulletin for Monday 13 September 1999) Thursday 23 September 19999.30 am Debate on an Executive Motion on Crime Prevention followed by, no later than 12.20 pm Business Motion 2.30 pm Question Time 3.00 pm Open Question Time followed by, no later than 3.15 pm Debate on an Executive Motion on the Voluntary Sector followed by Other Parliamentary Bureau motions 5.00 pm Decision Time Wednesday 29 September 1999 2.30 pm Debate on an Executive Motion on a Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy for Scotland followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions 5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business Thursday 30 September 1999 9.30 am Non-Executive Business: Debate on a Motion by the Scottish National Party followed by, no later than 12.20 pm Business Motion 2.30 pm Question Time 3.00 pm Open Question Time followed by, no later than 3.15 pm Stage 1 Debate on the Public Finance and (Scotland) Bill Accountability followed by Motion on a Financial Resolution required in relation to the provisions of the Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill followed by Other Parliamentary Bureau Motions 5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business", "EditedTextHTML": "The motion sets out the business for next week and the provisional business for the following week.

In the afternoon of Wednesday 22 September, there will be a debate on an Executive motion on tourism. That will be followed by any motions lodged by the Parliamentary Bureau in respect of Scottish statutory instruments, which will be taken without debate, and any procedural motions that are to be considered by the Parliament. Decision time will take place at 5 pm. After decision time there will be a members' business debate on motion S1M-126 on Stobhill Hospital, in the name of Mr Paul Martin.

On Thursday 23 September, business will begin at 9.30 am with a debate on an Executive motion on crime prevention. That debate replaces the debate on a manufacturing and industrial strategy for Scotland that was announced as provisional business last week, which will now take place on 29 September. On conclusion of the debate on crime prevention, I will move a further business motion for the ensuing weeks.

The afternoon will start with question time at

2.30 pm, followed by open question time at 3 pm and a debate on an Executive motion on the voluntary sector at 3.15 pm. That will be followed by any motions lodged by the Parliamentary Bureau on SSIs, which are to be taken without debate. Decision time will take place at 5 pm, and on this occasion there will be no members' business. The business for the following week is, as always, provisional. However, every attempt will be made to hold to the announced business.

On Wednesday 29 September, it is proposed that the substantive business should be a debate on an Executive motion on a manufacturing and industrial strategy for Scotland. Decision time will take place at 5 pm, followed by a members' debate on a subject that is yet to be announced.

On Thursday 30 September, the first item of business will be a non-Executive business debate on a motion from the Scottish National party; the topic is yet to be announced. Immediately before lunch, I will move a further business motion.

The afternoon will begin with question time, followed by open question time at 3 pm. That will be followed by the debate on stage 1 of the Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill and the financial resolution required in relation to the bill. On both days, provision will be made to enable the Parliament to consider any motions lodged by the Parliamentary Bureau in respect of SSIs and other procedural motions required to be considered by the Parliament. Decision time will take place at 5 pm, followed by a members' business debate on a subject that is yet to be announced.

I move,

That the Parliament agrees the following programme of business—

Wednesday 22 September 1999

2.30 pm Debate on an Executive Motion on Tourism followed by Parliamentary Bureau motions 5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business: Debate on the subject of motion S1M-126 Paul Martin – Stobhill Hospital (for text of motion, see Section F of Business Bulletin for Monday 13 September 1999)

Thursday 23 September 1999

9.30 am Debate on an Executive Motion on Crime Prevention followed by, no later than 12.20 pm Business Motion

2.30 pm Question Time 3.00 pm Open Question Time followed by, no later than 3.15 pm Debate on an Executive Motion on the Voluntary Sector followed by Other Parliamentary Bureau motions

5.00 pm Decision Time Wednesday 29 September 1999 2.30 pm Debate on an Executive Motion on a Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy for Scotland followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions

5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business Thursday 30 September 1999 9.30 am Non-Executive Business: Debate on a Motion by the Scottish National Party followed by, no later than 12.20 pm Business Motion

2.30 pm Question Time 3.00 pm Open Question Time followed by, no later than 3.15 pm Stage 1 Debate on the Public

Finance and (Scotland) Bill Accountability followed by Motion on a Financial Resolution required in relation to the provisions of the Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill followed by Other Parliamentary Bureau Motions 5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5921342+00:00" }, { "ID": "C707794", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26802, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 513.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 513.0, "ID": 26802, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 525.0, "ContributionID": 707794, "EditedText": "On resuming—", "EditedTextHTML": "On resuming—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5921342+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C707797", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Continental Tyres", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26803, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 526.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 526.0, "ID": 26803, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 531.0, "ContributionID": 707797, "EditedText": "I call Henry McLeish to move the amendment.", "EditedTextHTML": "I call Henry McLeish to move the amendment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5921342+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2152E53P75C707805", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Continental Tyres", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26803, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 526.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 526.0, "ID": 26803, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnston, Nick", "ID": 2152, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nick Johnston", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Nick Johnston (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 551.0, "ContributionID": 707805, "EditedText": "At yesterday's meeting, the Continental workers showed that they are brave and determined people who have finally accepted their fate; they are doomed. I am pleased that the minister will call for equity of treatment between Ireland and Scotland, but we need to go further. Once the issue of the redundancy payments is settled, we must examine what will happen next. I will request that the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee speak to a representative number of the workers at Newbridge to get their views on the help that they are being offered. At first examination, the help does not seem to meet entirely the work force's needs. The workers at Continental have specific skills; they need retraining and they need it quickly. As Fiona said, tyre moulds have been removed to Romania and Ford has rejected the tyres made in that country on grounds of quality. Now it appears that production may have to continue on certain models to allow Continental to fulfil its contract with Ford. That means that the workers still do not know when their jobs will cease to exist, which is very disturbing for people who have children to feed and mortgages to pay. Much has been trumpeted about the number of jobs that were created by the task force in Haddington. What was the quality of those jobs and what were the rates of pay? The Continental workers are highly paid and skilled and they should not be asked to work for minimum rates in call centres. Finally, I refer to my remarks to Mr McLeish regarding the redevelopment of the site and the apparent difficulties with the Civil Aviation Authority. I support the motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "At yesterday's meeting, the Continental workers showed that they are brave and determined people who have finally accepted their fate; they are doomed.

I am pleased that the minister will call for equity of treatment between Ireland and Scotland, but we need to go further. Once the issue of the redundancy payments is settled, we must examine what will happen next. I will request that the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee speak to a representative number of the workers at Newbridge to get their views on the help that they are being offered. At first examination, the help does not seem to meet entirely the work force's needs. The workers at Continental have specific skills; they need retraining and they need it quickly.

As Fiona said, tyre moulds have been removed to Romania and Ford has rejected the tyres made in that country on grounds of quality. Now it appears that production may have to continue on certain models to allow Continental to fulfil its contract with Ford. That means that the workers still do not know when their jobs will cease to exist, which is very disturbing for people who have children to feed and mortgages to pay.

Much has been trumpeted about the number of jobs that were created by the task force in Haddington. What was the quality of those jobs and what were the rates of pay? The Continental workers are highly paid and skilled and they should not be asked to work for minimum rates in call centres.

Finally, I refer to my remarks to Mr McLeish regarding the redevelopment of the site and the apparent difficulties with the Civil Aviation Authority.

I support the motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5921342+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C707807", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Continental Tyres", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26803, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 526.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 526.0, "ID": 26803, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 556.0, "ContributionID": 707807, "EditedText": "Lloyd Quinan, you have two minutes.", "EditedTextHTML": "Lloyd Quinan, you have two minutes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5921342+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C707809", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Continental Tyres", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26803, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 526.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 526.0, "ID": 26803, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning (Henry McLeish): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 562.0, "ContributionID": 707809, "EditedText": "I want to thank colleagues for their constructive contributions to this brief debate. I also want to echo the sentiments expressed by Margo MacDonald and Nick Johnston about the need for the existing package to unfold to the benefit of the work force. If there are any concerns whatever, members should come directly to me. I will tackle any genuine concerns that the local MSP or others have. I want to thank Lord James for his comments, which were, as usual, courteous. We have tried to work in such a way as to lodge an amendment that all members can support. Members in all quarters are agreed that this is an issue on which we should not be divided. We seek the best for the work force at the plant and it would send a powerful message if that were the result of our deliberations. I have listened with great care to what members have said. I need hardly do so, but I stress that I share the widely expressed concerns for the future of the Scottish employees of Continental. I have already expressed my strongest sympathy for the work force and their families and I have made it clear that the Scottish Executive will provide or endorse whatever support is appropriate for the work force. However, as I said in my statement on 1 September: \"It is not within the power of the Executive or this Parliament to deliver on redundancy packages.\" —Official Report, 1 September 1999; Vol 2, c 15. It is not for the Scottish Executive to seek to negotiate the terms of redundancy packages. That is clearly a matter for the unions. I have been in close contact with the union officials, in particular Harry Donaldson of the General, Municipal, Boilermakers and Allied Trades Union, on many occasions, most recently at 11 o'clock today. The union officials are aware of my—and the Parliament's—support for their efforts. I respect their judgment and competence and we wish them every success in achieving an equitable outcome. As Margaret Smith, the local MSP, said, there are meetings tomorrow with the work force, the task group, the local MSP and me. While I understand the concerns that lie behind the demand for parity of treatment, we must recognise that different countries, such as Germany and Ireland, have different labour laws and that different circumstances apply. Those factors have a clear impact on redundancy packages, which are negotiated. It is not always appropriate to draw comparisons. However, we have urged the company to provide employees with the most generous redundancy package possible. That is the sentiment of this Parliament and we reinforce that again today. We have not budged from that position. When my colleague, Nicol Stephen, visited Continental's management in Hanover a few weeks ago, he emphasised the importance that we place on the settlement package for the work force and on full co-operation with the action team on retraining for new employment. As a result of that meeting, Dr Holzbach is visiting the Newbridge plant tomorrow. I will meet him during the day to continue discussions. In the spirit of my amendment, the motion that we approve today will be presented to Dr Holzbach to show our sense of purpose and unity and to reflect the fact that we want the best possible package to emerge. However, eventually, it is up to the trades unions and the company to deliver on that. We have also stressed the importance of carrying out an economic and financial appraisal quickly to establish future options for the plant. That, too, has been agreed. We will continue to support the efforts being made by so many agencies to ensure the best possible outcome for the workers at Newbridge. I hope that we can constructively channel the concern and commitment of everyone involved, including that of members here today, to achieve that goal. In the spirit of co-operation and solidarity, it is vital for this Parliament at times to speak to the rest of Scotland with one voice. We are doing that today. I hope that colleagues will accept the amendment, which I discussed earlier with Lord James and which represents the best way forward. Let us ensure that we get the best deal for the workers. That is what tomorrow is all about.", "EditedTextHTML": "I want to thank colleagues for their constructive contributions to this brief debate. I also want to echo the sentiments expressed by Margo MacDonald and Nick Johnston about the need for the existing package to unfold to the benefit of the work force. If there are any concerns whatever, members should come directly to me. I will tackle any genuine concerns that the local MSP or others have.

I want to thank Lord James for his comments, which were, as usual, courteous. We have tried to work in such a way as to lodge an amendment that all members can support. Members in all quarters are agreed that this is an issue on which we should not be divided. We seek the best for the work force at the plant and it would send a powerful message if that were the result of our deliberations.

I have listened with great care to what members have said. I need hardly do so, but I stress that I share the widely expressed concerns for the future of the Scottish employees of Continental. I have already expressed my strongest sympathy for the work force and their families and I have made it clear that the Scottish Executive will provide or endorse whatever support is appropriate for the work force. However, as I said in my statement on 1 September:

\"It is not within the power of the Executive or this Parliament to deliver on redundancy packages.\" —[Official Report, 1 September 1999; Vol 2, c 15.]

It is not for the Scottish Executive to seek to negotiate the terms of redundancy packages. That is clearly a matter for the unions. I have been in close contact with the union officials, in particular Harry Donaldson of the General, Municipal, Boilermakers and Allied Trades Union, on many occasions, most recently at 11 o'clock today. The union officials are aware of my—and the Parliament's—support for their efforts. I respect their judgment and competence and we wish them every success in achieving an equitable outcome. As Margaret Smith, the local MSP, said, there are meetings tomorrow with the work force, the task group, the local MSP and me.

While I understand the concerns that lie behind the demand for parity of treatment, we must recognise that different countries, such as

Germany and Ireland, have different labour laws and that different circumstances apply. Those factors have a clear impact on redundancy packages, which are negotiated. It is not always appropriate to draw comparisons. However, we have urged the company to provide employees with the most generous redundancy package possible. That is the sentiment of this Parliament and we reinforce that again today. We have not budged from that position.

When my colleague, Nicol Stephen, visited Continental's management in Hanover a few weeks ago, he emphasised the importance that we place on the settlement package for the work force and on full co-operation with the action team on retraining for new employment. As a result of that meeting, Dr Holzbach is visiting the Newbridge plant tomorrow. I will meet him during the day to continue discussions.

In the spirit of my amendment, the motion that we approve today will be presented to Dr Holzbach to show our sense of purpose and unity and to reflect the fact that we want the best possible package to emerge. However, eventually, it is up to the trades unions and the company to deliver on that.

We have also stressed the importance of carrying out an economic and financial appraisal quickly to establish future options for the plant. That, too, has been agreed.

We will continue to support the efforts being made by so many agencies to ensure the best possible outcome for the workers at Newbridge. I hope that we can constructively channel the concern and commitment of everyone involved, including that of members here today, to achieve that goal.

In the spirit of co-operation and solidarity, it is vital for this Parliament at times to speak to the rest of Scotland with one voice. We are doing that today. I hope that colleagues will accept the amendment, which I discussed earlier with Lord James and which represents the best way forward. Let us ensure that we get the best deal for the workers. That is what tomorrow is all about.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5921342+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C707819", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26804, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 566.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26805, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "QuestionHeading": "Finance", "QuestionHeadingID": 26808, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 584.0, "DisplayOrder": 584.0, "ID": 26808, "ParentID": 26805 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Finance (Mr Jack McConnell): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 587.0, "ContributionID": 707819, "EditedText": "I have a choice of answers: I could say yes to the first question and ignore the second one. I welcome our colleague from Wales. The present system for funding Scotland's budget has produced a fair settlement over a number of years. The arrangements for agreeing that settlement are set out in the statement on funding policy that was published by Her Majesty's Treasury on 31 March 1999. The Executive will make representations from time to time for increases in the Scottish budget in line with the circumstances that are set out in that document.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have a choice of answers: I could say yes to the first question and ignore the second one. I welcome our colleague from Wales.

The present system for funding Scotland's budget has produced a fair settlement over a number of years. The arrangements for agreeing that settlement are set out in the statement on funding policy that was published by Her Majesty's Treasury on 31 March 1999. The Executive will make representations from time to time for increases in the Scottish budget in line with the circumstances that are set out in that document.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5921342+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C707821", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26804, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 566.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26805, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "QuestionHeading": "Finance", "QuestionHeadingID": 26808, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 584.0, "DisplayOrder": 584.0, "ID": 26808, "ParentID": 26805 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 591.0, "ContributionID": 707821, "EditedText": "I am tempted to say no this time. However, I have two points that I want to make. First, as I have said, Scotland does very well out of our national agreement with the UK Treasury. The comprehensive spending review last year produced £800 million—sorry, produced £800 of extra public expenditure over the next three years for every man, woman and child in Scotland. It will produce an extra £1.8 billion for health and £1.3 billion for education. Another London-based report that was published yesterday was welcomed this morning by Mr Wilson on behalf of the Scottish National party. However, last December he described the same organisation as talking economic gibberish when it accurately reported that Scotland would be a very large debtor of public expenditure if it went down the route that Mr Neil wants to follow, even if some of his front-bench colleagues now have reservations about independence.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am tempted to say no this time. However, I have two points that I want to make. First, as I have said, Scotland does very well out of our national agreement with the UK Treasury. The comprehensive spending review last year produced £800 million—sorry, produced £800 of extra public expenditure over the next three years for every man, woman and child in Scotland. It will produce an extra £1.8 billion for health and £1.3 billion for education.

Another London-based report that was published yesterday was welcomed this morning by Mr Wilson on behalf of the Scottish National party. However, last December he described the same organisation as talking economic gibberish when it accurately reported that Scotland would be a very large debtor of public expenditure if it went down the route that Mr Neil wants to follow, even if some of his front-bench colleagues now have reservations about independence.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5921342+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C707833", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26804, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 566.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26805, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "QuestionHeading": "Ministerial Meetings", "QuestionHeadingID": 26812, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 618.0, "DisplayOrder": 618.0, "ID": 26812, "ParentID": 26805 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "9. Mr Keith Raffan (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 619.0, "ContributionID": 707833, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive which ministers have so far met their counterparts from the Cabinet of the National Assembly for Wales. (S1O-305) The First Minister (Donald Dewar): I have a long list here, Presiding Officer.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive which ministers have so far met their counterparts from the Cabinet of the National Assembly for Wales. (S1O-305) The First Minister (Donald Dewar): I have a long list here, Presiding Officer.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5921342+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C707837", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26804, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 566.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26805, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "QuestionHeading": "Ministerial Meetings", "QuestionHeadingID": 26812, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 618.0, "DisplayOrder": 618.0, "ID": 26812, "ParentID": 26805 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 627.0, "ContributionID": 707837, "EditedText": "Would the First Minister agree that the more contact we have with members of the Welsh Assembly the better, and does he further welcome the initial steps that have been taken today by Dafydd Wigley and me towards the formation of an all-party Scottish Parliament- Welsh Assembly group?", "EditedTextHTML": "Would the First Minister agree that the more contact we have with members of the Welsh Assembly the better, and does he further welcome the initial steps that have been taken today by Dafydd Wigley and me towards the formation of an all-party Scottish Parliament- Welsh Assembly group?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5921342+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C707838", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26804, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 566.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26805, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "QuestionHeading": "Ministerial Meetings", "QuestionHeadingID": 26812, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 618.0, "DisplayOrder": 618.0, "ID": 26812, "ParentID": 26805 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 629.0, "ContributionID": 707838, "EditedText": "The list of names that I gave shows our anxiety to keep in touch, and I think that exchange of information and ideas is always useful. The formation of an all-party group is a matter for members in this Parliament. I am interested to know where that group might meet, although I note that Mr Keith Raffan has had no difficulty in making the journey from Wales to Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "The list of names that I gave shows our anxiety to keep in touch, and I think that exchange of information and ideas is always useful. The formation of an all-party group is a matter for members in this Parliament. I am interested to know where that group might meet, although I note that Mr Keith Raffan has had no difficulty in making the journey from Wales to Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5921342+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2085E206P337C707842", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26804, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 566.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26805, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "QuestionHeading": "Deer Farming", "QuestionHeadingID": 26814, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 638.0, "DisplayOrder": 638.0, "ID": 26814, "ParentID": 26805 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Munro, John Farquhar", "ID": 2085, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ross, Skye and Inverness West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Farquhar Munro", "SpeakerDisplayName": "11. Mr John Munro (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 639.0, "ContributionID": 707842, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will consider giving hill livestock compensatory allowance payments to deer farmers. (S1O-327) The Minister for Rural Affairs (Ross Finnie): Yes. The consultation paper that I launched recently on the replacement for hill livestock compensatory allowances proposes the inclusion of deer farmers.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will consider giving hill livestock compensatory allowance payments to deer farmers. (S1O-327) The Minister for Rural Affairs (Ross Finnie): Yes. The consultation paper that I launched recently on the replacement for hill livestock compensatory allowances proposes the inclusion of deer farmers.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5921342+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C707844", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26804, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 566.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26805, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "QuestionHeading": "Deer Farming", "QuestionHeadingID": 26814, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 638.0, "DisplayOrder": 638.0, "ID": 26814, "ParentID": 26805 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ross Finnie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 643.0, "ContributionID": 707844, "EditedText": "If, in responding to my colleague who is seated at the back of the chamber, I turn my back on you—and I think that I am using that phrase in its correct context—I hope that you will forgive me.", "EditedTextHTML": "If, in responding to my colleague who is seated at the back of the chamber, I turn my back on you—and I think that I am using that phrase in its correct context—I hope that you will forgive me.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5921342+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C707846", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26804, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 566.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26805, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "QuestionHeading": "Deer Farming", "QuestionHeadingID": 26814, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 638.0, "DisplayOrder": 638.0, "ID": 26814, "ParentID": 26805 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ross Finnie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 647.0, "ContributionID": 707846, "EditedText": "I am encouraged by the fact that the Scottish National party is not interested in answers to such important questions. The consultation paper that deals with the review of HLCAs is intended to do exactly what Mr Munro seeks, which is to examine how a new form of less favoured areas subsidy will be directed more precisely towards the kind of situation with which John Farquhar Munro is concerned.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am encouraged by the fact that the Scottish National party is not interested in answers to such important questions.

The consultation paper that deals with the review of HLCAs is intended to do exactly what Mr Munro seeks, which is to examine how a new form of less favoured areas subsidy will be directed more precisely towards the kind of situation with which John Farquhar Munro is concerned.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5921342+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1962E35P56C707849", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26804, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 566.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26805, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "QuestionHeading": "Rail Services", "QuestionHeadingID": 26815, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 649.0, "DisplayOrder": 649.0, "ID": 26815, "ParentID": 26805 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mundell, David", "ID": 1962, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Mundell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David Mundell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 654.0, "ContributionID": 707849, "EditedText": "Will the Scottish Executive give an assurance that it will give equal weight to the requirements of passengers using Lockerbie station, stations on the Nith valley line and other affected stations and the requirements of passengers travelling from other stations in Scotland in response to calls from users for better services, particularly to and from Glasgow and Edinburgh?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the Scottish Executive give an assurance that it will give equal weight to the requirements of passengers using Lockerbie station, stations on the Nith valley line and other affected stations and the requirements of passengers travelling from other stations in Scotland in response to calls from users for better services, particularly to and from Glasgow and Edinburgh?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5921342+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2223E203P342C707854", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26804, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 566.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26805, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "QuestionHeading": "Tourism", "QuestionHeadingID": 26817, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 665.0, "DisplayOrder": 665.0, "ID": 26817, "ParentID": 26805 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scott, Tavish", "ID": 2223, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Shetland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tavish Scott", "SpeakerDisplayName": "14. Tavish Scott (Shetland) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 666.0, "ContributionID": 707854, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether the Tourism Strategy to be published in January 2000 will address the problem of high transport costs faced by the tourism industry in island areas. (S1O-308) The Deputy Minister for Highlands and Islands and Gaelic (Mr Alasdair Morrison): An important objective of the new strategy will be to make the remoter parts of Scotland more attractive to tourists.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether the Tourism Strategy to be published in January 2000 will address the problem of high transport costs faced by the tourism industry in island areas. (S1O-308) The Deputy Minister for Highlands and Islands and Gaelic (Mr Alasdair Morrison): An important objective of the new strategy will be to make the remoter parts of Scotland more attractive to tourists.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5921342+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2167E79P155C707858", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26804, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 566.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26805, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "QuestionHeading": "Education Service", "QuestionHeadingID": 26818, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 672.0, "DisplayOrder": 672.0, "ID": 26818, "ParentID": 26805 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Peacock, Peter", "ID": 2167, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Peter Peacock", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Children and Education (Peter Peacock): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 675.0, "ContributionID": 707858, "EditedText": "The Scottish Executive actively supports local authorities in meeting their statutory responsibility to provide appropriate education for all pupils with special educational needs. Resources allocated to special educational needs have been increased by £11.3 million this year.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Scottish Executive actively supports local authorities in meeting their statutory responsibility to provide appropriate education for all pupils with special educational needs. Resources allocated to special educational needs have been increased by £11.3 million this year.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5921342+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C707861", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26804, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 566.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26805, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "QuestionHeading": "St Mary's Episcopal Primary School, Dunblane", "QuestionHeadingID": 26819, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 681.0, "DisplayOrder": 681.0, "ID": 26819, "ParentID": 26805 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "16. Mr Brian Monteith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 682.0, "ContributionID": 707861, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executivewhether any ministers have plans to visit St Mary's Episcopal Primary School, Dunblane, before the end of the year. (S1O-334) The Deputy Minister for Children and Education (Peter Peacock): There are no such plans.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executivewhether any ministers have plans to visit St Mary's Episcopal Primary School, Dunblane, before the end of the year. (S1O-334) The Deputy Minister for Children and Education (Peter Peacock): There are no such plans.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6077605+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C707862", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26804, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 566.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26805, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "QuestionHeading": "St Mary's Episcopal Primary School, Dunblane", "QuestionHeadingID": 26819, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 681.0, "DisplayOrder": 681.0, "ID": 26819, "ParentID": 26805 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Monteith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 684.0, "ContributionID": 707862, "EditedText": "I am disappointed that the minister has no plans to visit St Mary's. As that school provides education at a cost of £900 per pupil less than equivalent primary schools, will he consider giving St Mary's grant-aided status, which is enjoyed by that other excellent school, Jordanhill?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am disappointed that the minister has no plans to visit St Mary's. As that school provides education at a cost of £900 per pupil less than equivalent primary schools, will he consider giving St Mary's grant-aided status, which is enjoyed by that other excellent school, Jordanhill?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6077605+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2167E79P155C707863", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26804, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 566.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26805, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "QuestionHeading": "St Mary's Episcopal Primary School, Dunblane", "QuestionHeadingID": 26819, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 681.0, "DisplayOrder": 681.0, "ID": 26819, "ParentID": 26805 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Peacock, Peter", "ID": 2167, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Peter Peacock", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Peter Peacock: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 686.0, "ContributionID": 707863, "EditedText": "I never like to disappoint Mr Monteith, but I may have to. His question reveals the paucity of thinking about education in Conservative circles, because everything seems to be reduced to money. This is not about money. The legislative reform that we seek is to get rid of a rather nasty, divisive piece of legislation that sought to create a two-tier system of education. We want to signal clearly to every Scottishparent that they can expect an excellent education service from their local authorities and that they need never opt out to get it.", "EditedTextHTML": "I never like to disappoint Mr Monteith, but I may have to. His question reveals the paucity of thinking about education in Conservative circles, because everything seems to be reduced to money. This is not about money. The legislative reform that we seek is to get rid of a rather nasty, divisive piece of legislation that sought to create a two-tier system of education.

We want to signal clearly to every Scottish

parent that they can expect an excellent education service from their local authorities and that they need never opt out to get it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6077605+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C707865", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26804, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 566.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26805, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "QuestionHeading": "St Mary's Episcopal Primary School, Dunblane", "QuestionHeadingID": 26819, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 681.0, "DisplayOrder": 681.0, "ID": 26819, "ParentID": 26805 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 690.0, "ContributionID": 707865, "EditedText": "Ask a question, Mr Monteith.", "EditedTextHTML": "Ask a question, Mr Monteith.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6077605+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C707866", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26804, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 566.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26805, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "QuestionHeading": "St Mary's Episcopal Primary School, Dunblane", "QuestionHeadingID": 26819, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 681.0, "DisplayOrder": 681.0, "ID": 26819, "ParentID": 26805 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Monteith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 692.0, "ContributionID": 707866, "EditedText": "I reiterate my question: will the minister offer St Mary's the opportunity to be grant-aided, as Jordanhill is, thus preserving the two-tier status that he will preserve in any case?", "EditedTextHTML": "I reiterate my question: will the minister offer St Mary's the opportunity to be grant-aided, as Jordanhill is, thus preserving the two-tier status that he will preserve in any case?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6077605+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2100E64P254C707870", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26804, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 566.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26805, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "QuestionHeading": "Fisheries", "QuestionHeadingID": 26820, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 696.0, "DisplayOrder": 696.0, "ID": 26820, "ParentID": 26805 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Home Robertson, John", "ID": 2100, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Lothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "John Home Robertson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Home Robertson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 701.0, "ContributionID": 707870, "EditedText": "I recognise a bag carrier when I see one. Richard Lochhead is quite right in saying that Scotland has the lion's share of Britain's fishing interests. We have most of the fishing grounds, most of the catching capacity and the lion's share of the value of the landings. Mercifully, the people of Scotland wisely rejected the idea of nationalism, and that means that we now have the advantage of having the United Kingdom's 10 votes in the European Council. I intend to use those votes in the interests of Scotland's fishing communities.", "EditedTextHTML": "I recognise a bag carrier when I see one. Richard Lochhead is quite right in saying that Scotland has the lion's share of Britain's fishing interests. We have most of the fishing grounds, most of the catching capacity and the lion's share of the value of the landings. Mercifully, the people of Scotland wisely rejected the idea of nationalism, and that means that we now have the advantage of having the United Kingdom's 10 votes in the European Council. I intend to use those votes in the interests of Scotland's fishing communities.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6077605+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C707875", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26804, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 566.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26805, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "QuestionHeading": "Stracathro Hospital", "QuestionHeadingID": 26821, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 707.0, "DisplayOrder": 707.0, "ID": 26821, "ParentID": 26805 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 712.0, "ContributionID": 707875, "EditedText": "As I said in my earlier response to a question on the same subject, such issues are matters for local resolution. I am keen to ensure that they are discussed and resolved effectively at local level. I refer Irene McGugan to my earlier answer to Mr Welsh.", "EditedTextHTML": "As I said in my earlier response to a question on the same subject, such issues are matters for local resolution. I am keen to ensure that they are discussed and resolved effectively at local level. I refer Irene McGugan to my earlier answer to Mr Welsh.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C707878", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26804, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 566.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26805, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "QuestionHeading": "“Making it work together”", "QuestionHeadingID": 26822, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 714.0, "DisplayOrder": 714.0, "ID": 26822, "ParentID": 26805 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 719.0, "ContributionID": 707878, "EditedText": "I do not think that that isa matter for the minister. Do you want to comment, Mr McConnell?", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not think that that is

a matter for the minister. Do you want to comment, Mr McConnell?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C707879", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26804, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 566.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26805, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "QuestionHeading": "“Making it work together”", "QuestionHeadingID": 26822, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 714.0, "DisplayOrder": 714.0, "ID": 26822, "ParentID": 26805 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 721.0, "ContributionID": 707879, "EditedText": "No. To be fair to my colleagues, a member has to ask a supplementary that is relevant to the initial question.", "EditedTextHTML": "No. To be fair to my colleagues, a member has to ask a supplementary that is relevant to the initial question.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C707880", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26804, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 566.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26805, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "QuestionHeading": "“Making it work together”", "QuestionHeadingID": 26822, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 714.0, "DisplayOrder": 714.0, "ID": 26822, "ParentID": 26805 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 723.0, "ContributionID": 707880, "EditedText": "That is right.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is right.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C707882", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26804, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 566.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26805, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "QuestionHeading": "Local Government Finance", "QuestionHeadingID": 26823, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 725.0, "DisplayOrder": 725.0, "ID": 26823, "ParentID": 26805 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Finance (Mr Jack McConnell): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 728.0, "ContributionID": 707882, "EditedText": "It is essentially a matter for the local authorities themselves to ensure that they are fully aware of the terms of the act, but I have spoken to Councillor Norman Murray, the president of COSLA, who confirmed that COSLA is writing to councils to draw their attention to the importance of this matter.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is essentially a matter for the local authorities themselves to ensure that they are fully aware of the terms of the act, but I have spoken to Councillor Norman Murray, the president of COSLA, who confirmed that COSLA is writing to councils to draw their attention to the importance of this matter.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1805E13P109C707885", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26804, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 566.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26805, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "QuestionHeading": "Health Care", "QuestionHeadingID": 26824, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 734.0, "DisplayOrder": 734.0, "ID": 26824, "ParentID": 26805 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Whitefield, Karen", "ID": 1805, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Airdrie and Shotts" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Karen Whitefield", "SpeakerDisplayName": "21. Karen Whitefield (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 735.0, "ContributionID": 707885, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will make a statement on the action it is taking to prevent heart disease in Scotland. (S1O-323) The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): In recent years, the Scottish rates of premature death and illness from the disease have been improving but they remain unacceptably high. Prevention remains a priority for the Executive, as our heart of Scotland demonstration project makes clear.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will make a statement on the action it is taking to prevent heart disease in Scotland. (S1O-323) The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): In recent years, the Scottish rates of premature death and illness from the disease have been improving but they remain unacceptably high. Prevention remains a priority for the Executive, as our heart of Scotland demonstration project makes clear.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1805E13P109C707886", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26804, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 566.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26805, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "QuestionHeading": "Health Care", "QuestionHeadingID": 26824, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 734.0, "DisplayOrder": 734.0, "ID": 26824, "ParentID": 26805 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Whitefield, Karen", "ID": 1805, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Airdrie and Shotts" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Karen Whitefield", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Karen Whitefield: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 737.0, "ContributionID": 707886, "EditedText": "Is the minister aware that Lanarkshire has one of the highest levels of heart disease in Scotland? Does she agree that preventive action must begin with children? If so, how will she ensure that children and young adults value healthy eating and exercise?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is the minister aware that Lanarkshire has one of the highest levels of heart disease in Scotland? Does she agree that preventive action must begin with children? If so, how will she ensure that children and young adults value healthy eating and exercise?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C707896", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26826, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 748.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26827, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 749.0, "QuestionHeading": "Higher Education", "QuestionHeadingID": 26828, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 750.0, "DisplayOrder": 750.0, "ID": 26828, "ParentID": 26827 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 761.0, "ContributionID": 707896, "EditedText": "To my knowledge, no resolution has been passed in favour of tuition fees by the Labour party in Scotland, nor did the words \"tuition fees\" appear in the Labour party manifesto for this year's election. Those of us who did have a manifesto commitment against tuition fees looked with some warmth at the words of Iain Smith on Monday, when he said about the Liberal Democrats: \"We will vote against tuition fees. There has never been room for compromise on that\". I welcome those words, but does the First Minister consider them compatible with his definition of collective responsibility in his Executive?", "EditedTextHTML": "To my knowledge, no resolution has been passed in favour of tuition fees by the Labour party in Scotland, nor did the words \"tuition fees\" appear in the Labour party manifesto for this year's election. Those of us who did have a manifesto commitment against tuition fees looked with some warmth at the words of Iain Smith on Monday, when he said about the Liberal Democrats:

\"We will vote against tuition fees. There has never been room for compromise on that\".

I welcome those words, but does the First Minister consider them compatible with his definition of collective responsibility in his Executive?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C707905", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26826, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 748.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26827, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 749.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26829, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 765.0, "DisplayOrder": 765.0, "ID": 26829, "ParentID": 26827 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 780.0, "ContributionID": 707905, "EditedText": "Thanks to us.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thanks to us.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C707906", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26826, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 748.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26827, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 749.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26829, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 765.0, "DisplayOrder": 765.0, "ID": 26829, "ParentID": 26827 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 782.0, "ContributionID": 707906, "EditedText": "All that the Conservative Government failed to put in place was the funding base to maintain it. Mr McLetchie could perhaps turn his mind to that. We are now interested in getting the system right. We will consult, examine the evidence and come up with solutions. I hope that the member supports us when the time comes.", "EditedTextHTML": "All that the Conservative Government failed to put in place was the funding base to maintain it. Mr McLetchie could perhaps turn his mind to that.

We are now interested in getting the system right. We will consult, examine the evidence and come up with solutions. I hope that the member supports us when the time comes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1931E120P189C707907", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26826, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 748.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26827, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 749.0, "QuestionHeading": "Objective 2 Funding", "QuestionHeadingID": 26830, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 784.0, "DisplayOrder": 784.0, "ID": 26830, "ParentID": 26827 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Muldoon, Bristow", "ID": 1931, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Livingston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bristow Muldoon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "3. Bristow Muldoon (Livingston) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 785.0, "ContributionID": 707907, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what input it has had in the redrawing of the objective 2 status map for Scotland. (S1O-328)", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what input it has had in the redrawing of the objective 2 status map for

Scotland. (S1O-328)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1931E120P189C707909", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26826, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 748.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26827, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 749.0, "QuestionHeading": "Objective 2 Funding", "QuestionHeadingID": 26830, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 784.0, "DisplayOrder": 784.0, "ID": 26830, "ParentID": 26827 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Muldoon, Bristow", "ID": 1931, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Livingston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bristow Muldoon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bristow Muldoon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 789.0, "ContributionID": 707909, "EditedText": "I welcome the minister's response. Will he strongly consider the case that has been submitted by West Lothian, which recognises the overall strength of the local economy while arguing for targeting within local government areas of objective 2 status at areas demonstrating disadvantage in terms of unemployment, skills, educational attainment and other indicators?", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the minister's response. Will he strongly consider the case that has been submitted by West Lothian, which recognises the overall strength of the local economy while arguing for targeting within local government areas of objective 2 status at areas demonstrating disadvantage in terms of unemployment, skills, educational attainment and other indicators?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C707912", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26826, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 748.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26827, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 749.0, "QuestionHeading": "Objective 2 Funding", "QuestionHeadingID": 26830, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 784.0, "DisplayOrder": 784.0, "ID": 26830, "ParentID": 26827 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 795.0, "ContributionID": 707912, "EditedText": "I can confirm that we are pressing for the most needy communities across Scotland, which would benefit most from European structural funds, to be included on the map. People can make their own assumptions about which communities that might include.", "EditedTextHTML": "I can confirm that we are pressing for the most needy communities across Scotland, which would benefit most from European structural funds, to be included on the map. People can make their own assumptions about which communities that might include.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1888E265P358C707913", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26826, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 748.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26827, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 749.0, "QuestionHeading": "Objective 2 Funding", "QuestionHeadingID": 26830, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 784.0, "DisplayOrder": 784.0, "ID": 26830, "ParentID": 26827 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morgan, Alasdair", "ID": 1888, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Galloway and Upper Nithsdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morgan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alasdair Morgan (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 797.0, "ContributionID": 707913, "EditedText": "At the risk of getting the same answer, may I point out to the minister that statistics published earlier this week show that Dumfries and Galloway has by far the highest percentage of low-paid workers of any local authority area in Great Britain? Does he agree, therefore, that it is essential that Dumfries and Galloway qualifies for objective 2 funding?", "EditedTextHTML": "At the risk of getting the same answer, may I point out to the minister that statistics published earlier this week show that Dumfries and Galloway has by far the highest percentage of low-paid workers of any local authority area in Great Britain? Does he agree, therefore, that it is essential that Dumfries and Galloway qualifies for objective 2 funding?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C707922", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Water Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26831, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 803.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 803.0, "ID": 26831, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 817.0, "ContributionID": 707922, "EditedText": "Excuse me, Mr Lochhead, but you do not have a supplementary question on a statement. I will move on to the next questioner.", "EditedTextHTML": "Excuse me, Mr Lochhead, but you do not have a supplementary question on a statement. I will move on to the next questioner.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C707923", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Water Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26831, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 803.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 803.0, "ID": 26831, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Annabel Goldie (West of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 819.0, "ContributionID": 707923, "EditedText": "I share Mr Lochhead's concerns, and I have noted the response to his comments. I am a little unclear from the statement about how the local consultative committees will be constituted. How will members be appointed and who will they be—or, if members have already been appointed, who are they? On a lighter note, I presume that the title of water industry commissioner is to ensure that the mnemonic is WIC rather than WC?", "EditedTextHTML": "I share Mr Lochhead's concerns, and I have noted the response to his comments. I am a little unclear from the statement about how the local consultative committees will be constituted. How will members be appointed and who will they be—or, if members have already been appointed, who are they?

On a lighter note, I presume that the title of water industry commissioner is to ensure that the mnemonic is WIC rather than WC?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1901E57P277C707936", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Water Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26831, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 803.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 803.0, "ID": 26831, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Allan", "ID": 1901, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Cunninghame North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Allan Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Allan Wilson (Cunninghame North) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 845.0, "ContributionID": 707936, "EditedText": "The minister will be familiar with the study commissioned by West of Scotland Water Authority into why Ayrshire beaches have failed to meet European water standards. Will she outline what specific measures she is introducing to improve standards in the interests of public health and local tourism?", "EditedTextHTML": "The minister will be familiar with the study commissioned by West of Scotland Water Authority into why Ayrshire beaches have failed to meet European water standards. Will she outline what specific measures she is introducing to improve standards in the interests of public health and local tourism?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1752E75P296C707940", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Water Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26831, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 803.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 803.0, "ID": 26831, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jamieson, Cathy", "ID": 1752, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Cathy Jamieson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Cathy Jamieson (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 853.0, "ContributionID": 707940, "EditedText": "I welcome the minister's statement on the firm commitment to keep the water industry in the public sector and the relief for charities and organisations that has been announced. I want to follow up Euan Robson's question by asking whether a number of different models for regulation were considered and why this particular model was chosen as the best.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the minister's statement on the firm commitment to keep the water industry in the public sector and the relief for charities and organisations that has been announced.

I want to follow up Euan Robson's question by asking whether a number of different models for regulation were considered and why this particular model was chosen as the best.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1762E216P508C707944", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Water Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26831, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 803.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 803.0, "ID": 26831, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Elder, Dorothy-Grace", "ID": 1762, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 861.0, "ContributionID": 707944, "EditedText": "Can I suggest—", "EditedTextHTML": "Can I suggest—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C707945", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Water Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26831, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 803.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 803.0, "ID": 26831, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer : ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 863.0, "ContributionID": 707945, "EditedText": "I am sorry; you do not have a supplementary question.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry; you do not have a supplementary question.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C707946", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Water Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26831, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 803.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 803.0, "ID": 26831, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Murray Tosh (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 865.0, "ContributionID": 707946, "EditedText": "I want to ask Ms Boyack about the capping regime on costs. She will doubtless remember that, earlier in the session, she provided an answer to a parliamentary question in which she said that the external financing limit available to North of Scotland Water Authority was programmed to decline quite sharply over the period from 1996 to 2002. In that context, will the regime that is being introduced guarantee that customers in that water authority area will have the same standards at the same pace and at broadly the same cost as customers pay in other parts of the country? As not everyone can pay the same amount, can we have a cost regime that is broadly comparable between regions?", "EditedTextHTML": "I want to ask Ms Boyack about the capping regime on costs. She will doubtless remember that, earlier in the session, she provided an answer to a parliamentary question in which she said that the external financing limit available to North of Scotland Water Authority was programmed to decline quite sharply over the period from 1996 to 2002. In that context, will the regime that is being introduced guarantee that customers in that water authority area will have the same standards at the same pace and at broadly the same cost as customers pay in other parts of the country? As not everyone can pay the same amount, can we have a cost regime that is broadly comparable between regions?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1876E194P490C707950", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26832, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 869.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 869.0, "ID": 26832, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Marwick, Tricia", "ID": 1876, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tricia Marwick", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tricia Marwick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 875.0, "ContributionID": 707950, "EditedText": "I am reassured to know that the minister spent the summer visiting hostels and the like. I recall that the minister's predecessors—Calum Macdonald and Malcolm Chisholm—made those same visits. Were they not listening? Did they not learn anything? They set the target of 2002, but the minister is now saying that the target is 2003. What great insights has the minister had in the past few months that her predecessors did not?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am reassured to know that the minister spent the summer visiting hostels and the like. I recall that the minister's predecessors—Calum Macdonald and Malcolm Chisholm—made those same visits. Were they not listening? Did they not learn anything? They set the target of 2002, but the minister is now saying that the target is 2003. What great insights has the minister had in the past few months that her predecessors did not?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2118E157P454C707956", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26832, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 869.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 869.0, "ID": 26832, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Quinan, Mr Lloyd", "ID": 2118, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lloyd Quinan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Lloyd Quinan (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 887.0, "ContributionID": 707956, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "

Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1820E139P227C707959", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26832, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 869.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 869.0, "ID": 26832, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Curran, Margaret", "ID": 1820, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Baillieston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Curran", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Margaret Curran (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 894.0, "ContributionID": 707959, "EditedText": "With all due respect to Fiona, she must distinguish between her view of what happened at the committee meeting and the decisions that the committee made. It was not the unanimous view of the committee members that they were disappointed with the time scale of the housing legislation. She may have been disappointed, but the committee did not come to that decision.", "EditedTextHTML": "With all due respect to Fiona, she must distinguish between her view of what happened at the committee meeting and the decisions that the committee made. It was not the unanimous view of the committee members that they were disappointed with the time scale of the housing legislation. She may have been disappointed, but the committee did not come to that decision.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2234E7P20C707963", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26832, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 869.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 869.0, "ID": 26832, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Aitken, Bill", "ID": 2234, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bill Aitken", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bill Aitken: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 903.0, "ContributionID": 707963, "EditedText": "There are 32,400 new homeless people, representing a 6 per cent increase. That is the fact, and Labour members must live with that. I will give way.", "EditedTextHTML": "There are 32,400 new homeless people, representing a 6 per cent increase. That is the fact, and Labour members must live with that. I will give way.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2234E7P20C707967", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26832, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 869.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 869.0, "ID": 26832, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Aitken, Bill", "ID": 2234, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bill Aitken", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bill Aitken: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 911.0, "ContributionID": 707967, "EditedText": "Now, with respect, I will continue in a more constructive vein. The task force will face a number of issues, but we already know the answers to some of the questions that the task force will ask. We know that there is a lack of liaison between different agencies, housing and social work being the most evident. We know that the existing system of discharge from prisons, hospitals and other institutions results in a lot of people going straight into rough sleeping. We know that that is the situation and that we are required to address it. What should we be doing about it? There was not much in what the minister said that convinced me that we have an answer to that particular problem yet. I suggest closer liaison with local authorities. The leaders of councils should be invited here to discuss the matter. They are the people at the sharp end of this issue, and we could then move it forward. We should also consult with building societies and other mortgage lenders. Repossession should be the very last option that they should consider. I am disappointed that the minister did not put her full weight behind the proposals that sheriffs in Scotland should have similar powers to county court judges in England and be able to stay repossession orders. That would have been a helpful gesture. I welcome Cathy Craigie's member's bill on that, but I would have looked for it to have been boosted by the Executive. I am sad that that was not included in the SNP amendment. One of the major problems facing us is support for those holding first-time tenancies. It is all very well throwing money at rough sleeping initiatives and it is all very well putting people into houses, but if they cannot cope with living in houses we will be back at square one very quickly. We must examine the fact that many of those whom we take off the streets to put into houses lead disoriented and disordered lives. They should really have much more support than is given to them. I look forward to the minister or the deputy minister coming forward in due course with clear and concise ideas as to how this problem will be addressed. Joined-up seems to be one of the buzzwords around here, but I am sure that we all agree that one of the saddest things that happens is that many of the major issues that this Parliament is required to address are impinged upon by the problem of drugs. The task force has already come up with the self-evident fact that the profile of those who are sleeping rough is completely different to the profile of those sleeping rough a generation ago. The average age is now much younger. Of course, drugs have caused that. We will have that problem until the Executive comes forward with concise and clear views on what it will do regarding the drugs menace generally.", "EditedTextHTML": "Now, with respect, I will continue in a more constructive vein. The task force will face a number of issues, but we already know the answers to some of the questions that the task force will ask. We know that there is a lack of liaison between different agencies, housing and social work being the most evident. We know that the existing system of discharge from prisons, hospitals and other institutions results in a lot of people going straight into rough sleeping. We know that that is the situation and that we are required to address it. What should we be doing about it? There was not much in what the minister said that convinced me that we have an answer to that particular problem yet.

I suggest closer liaison with local authorities. The leaders of councils should be invited here to discuss the matter. They are the people at the sharp end of this issue, and we could then move it forward. We should also consult with building societies and other mortgage lenders. Repossession should be the very last option that they should consider. I am disappointed that the minister did not put her full weight behind the proposals that sheriffs in Scotland should have similar powers to county court judges in England and be able to stay repossession orders. That would have been a helpful gesture. I welcome

Cathy Craigie's member's bill on that, but I would have looked for it to have been boosted by the Executive. I am sad that that was not included in the SNP amendment.

One of the major problems facing us is support for those holding first-time tenancies. It is all very well throwing money at rough sleeping initiatives and it is all very well putting people into houses, but if they cannot cope with living in houses we will be back at square one very quickly. We must examine the fact that many of those whom we take off the streets to put into houses lead disoriented and disordered lives. They should really have much more support than is given to them. I look forward to the minister or the deputy minister coming forward in due course with clear and concise ideas as to how this problem will be addressed.

Joined-up seems to be one of the buzzwords around here, but I am sure that we all agree that one of the saddest things that happens is that many of the major issues that this Parliament is required to address are impinged upon by the problem of drugs. The task force has already come up with the self-evident fact that the profile of those who are sleeping rough is completely different to the profile of those sleeping rough a generation ago. The average age is now much younger. Of course, drugs have caused that. We will have that problem until the Executive comes forward with concise and clear views on what it will do regarding the drugs menace generally.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1876E194P490C707968", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26832, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 869.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 869.0, "ID": 26832, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Marwick, Tricia", "ID": 1876, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tricia Marwick", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tricia Marwick: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 913.0, "ContributionID": 707968, "EditedText": "I agree with Mr Aitken that the age of those sleeping rough on the streets has fallen, but will he accept that there are young people on the streets as a direct result of changes in housing benefit and other benefits for 16 to 18year- olds, which were brought in by the Conservative Government in the late 1980s?", "EditedTextHTML": "I agree with Mr Aitken that the age of those sleeping rough on the streets has fallen, but will he accept that there are young people on the streets as a direct result of changes in housing benefit and other benefits for 16 to 18year- olds, which were brought in by the Conservative Government in the late 1980s?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2185E120P328C707974", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26832, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 869.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 869.0, "ID": 26832, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Brown, Robert", "ID": 2185, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robert Brown", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robert Brown (Glasgow) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 926.0, "ContributionID": 707974, "EditedText": "I welcome many aspects of the minister's statement. I will, in passing, mention a statistic from the period between 1979 and 1996—the last Conservative regime. In that time around 500,000 mortgage holders were repossessed in the United Kingdom as a whole. That puts in perspective what we are talking about today and the challenge that we must face. Homelessness is a multi-faceted problem both in its causes and consequences. Marital household break-up, lack of suitable housing, moving out of care and out of institutions—which has been touched on—and drug and alcohol problems have all played their part in the creation of the crisis. The raw figures are horrific. In 1986-87, 25,189 households in Scotland presented themselves to councils as homeless, or as potentially so. Last year, the figure was 43,051. In rural areas, as was touched on before, the problem is smaller in terms of numbers, but bigger in proportion. The figures that Fiona Hyslop mentioned, which were, I think, originally obtained by Fergus Ewing, referred to a rise of 130 per cent in the Highlands and Islands. In sheer numbers and size, the problem in Glasgow dominates the national picture: the 198687 figure of 5,705 applicants rose to 12,665 last year, four times the number for our nearest rival— if rival is the right word in this context. There are strange oddities in the statistics. Why, for example, do little more than a quarter of Glasgow applicants get assessed as being in priority need, compared with two thirds in Edinburgh and the Scottish average of around a third? A sevenfold increase in the presentation of priority cases in a 10-year period under the category of mental illness is notable. It does not seem to be particularly linked to the introduction of care in the community. A fourfold statistical increase in \"other special reasons\" also merits attention. The reasons given for homelessness are equally interesting. A doubling of priority cases arising from violent disputes with spouses echoes the debate that we had on 2 September on domestic violence. The large increase in cases involving people who have been discharged from institutions or resulting from actions by landlords— because, for example, of rent arrears—is also worthy of major consideration. It is odd that rent arrears evictions are relatively small compared with other actions by landlords. That contradicts the experience of courts that rent arrears are by far the commonest cause of court actions for repossession, and suggests that people do not wait for court action, but anticipate it, and are therefore moonlighters. There is a strong, growing sense of purpose and dedication among the Executive and in this Parliament in getting to grips with this matter—it is important that that is the case. We should not, in that context, understate the importance of the commitment of the partnership Executive to the objective that no one should have to sleep rough by 2003, or the commitment to housing legislation next year. The existing law, largely contained in the Housing (Scotland) Act 1987 and the Housing (Scotland) Act 1988, inherited a long tail of past regimes and complicated terminology. It is extremely specialised, and I doubt that the draftsmen will be heavily challenged in modernising it, particularly if the single social tenancy concept is to be pursued. The Minister for Communities will not, therefore, be surprised to hear that I think that the Scottish Executive has perhaps lost the opportunity to support my proposed member's bill on the prevention of homelessness and to secure legislation on measures that have broad agreement—echoing what Bill Aitken said before—a full year in advance of the main bill.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome many aspects of the minister's statement. I will, in passing, mention a statistic from the period between 1979 and 1996—the last Conservative regime. In that time around 500,000 mortgage holders were repossessed in the United Kingdom as a whole. That puts in perspective what we are talking about today and the challenge that we must face.

Homelessness is a multi-faceted problem both in its causes and consequences. Marital household break-up, lack of suitable housing, moving out of care and out of institutions—which has been touched on—and drug and alcohol problems have all played their part in the creation of the crisis. The raw figures are horrific. In 1986-87, 25,189 households in Scotland presented themselves to councils as homeless, or as potentially so. Last year, the figure was 43,051. In rural areas, as was touched on before, the problem is smaller in terms of numbers, but bigger in proportion. The figures that Fiona Hyslop mentioned, which were, I think, originally obtained by Fergus Ewing, referred to a rise of 130 per cent in the Highlands and Islands.

In sheer numbers and size, the problem in Glasgow dominates the national picture: the 198687 figure of 5,705 applicants rose to 12,665 last year, four times the number for our nearest rival— if rival is the right word in this context. There are strange oddities in the statistics. Why, for example, do little more than a quarter of Glasgow applicants get assessed as being in priority need, compared with two thirds in Edinburgh and the Scottish average of around a third?

A sevenfold increase in the presentation of priority cases in a 10-year period under the category of mental illness is notable. It does not seem to be particularly linked to the introduction of care in the community. A fourfold statistical increase in \"other special reasons\" also merits attention.

The reasons given for homelessness are equally interesting. A doubling of priority cases arising from violent disputes with spouses echoes the debate that we had on 2 September on domestic violence. The large increase in cases involving people who have been discharged from institutions or resulting from actions by landlords— because, for example, of rent arrears—is also worthy of major consideration. It is odd that rent arrears evictions are relatively small compared with other actions by landlords. That contradicts the experience of courts that rent arrears are by far the commonest cause of court actions for repossession, and suggests that people do not wait for court action, but anticipate it, and are therefore moonlighters.

There is a strong, growing sense of purpose and dedication among the Executive and in this Parliament in getting to grips with this matter—it is important that that is the case. We should not, in that context, understate the importance of the commitment of the partnership Executive to the objective that no one should have to sleep rough by 2003, or the commitment to housing legislation next year. The existing law, largely contained in the Housing (Scotland) Act 1987 and the Housing (Scotland) Act 1988, inherited a long tail of past regimes and complicated terminology. It is extremely specialised, and I doubt that the draftsmen will be heavily challenged in modernising it, particularly if the single social tenancy concept is to be pursued.

The Minister for Communities will not, therefore, be surprised to hear that I think that the Scottish Executive has perhaps lost the opportunity to support my proposed member's bill on the prevention of homelessness and to secure legislation on measures that have broad agreement—echoing what Bill Aitken said before—a full year in advance of the main bill.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2142E142P230C707979", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26832, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 869.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 869.0, "ID": 26832, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Watson, Mike", "ID": 2142, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Cathcart" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Watson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mike Watson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 937.0, "ContributionID": 707979, "EditedText": "She could not have been more explicit in telling people what was involved, but we still get the same old arguments.", "EditedTextHTML": "She could not have been more explicit in telling people what was involved, but we still get the same old arguments.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2118E157P454C707980", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26832, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 869.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 869.0, "ID": 26832, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Quinan, Mr Lloyd", "ID": 2118, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lloyd Quinan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Quinan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 939.0, "ContributionID": 707980, "EditedText": "Will the noble lord give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the noble lord give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2142E142P230C707981", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26832, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 869.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 869.0, "ID": 26832, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Watson, Mike", "ID": 2142, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Cathcart" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Watson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mike Watson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 941.0, "ContributionID": 707981, "EditedText": "Yes, why not?", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes, why not?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1876E194P490C707984", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26832, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 869.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 869.0, "ID": 26832, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Marwick, Tricia", "ID": 1876, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tricia Marwick", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tricia Marwick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 948.0, "ContributionID": 707984, "EditedText": "I would like to express my support for the rough sleepers initiative and I welcome the minister's announcement yesterday that she will find a further £6 million to fund it. It is not surprising that I would say that—when I worked for Shelter, I campaigned for a rough sleepers initiative. The initiative was first introduced in 1989 in London, but it was not until winter 1996 that Michael Forsyth agreed that we needed a rough sleepers initiative in Scotland. That was because of the shaming spectacle of people dying on our streets, which I think shocked even Michael Forsyth into action. I share Fiona Hyslop's concern that the Executive is trying to redefine homelessness. Rough sleeping is the most visible form of homelessness, but it is not the only form. Wendy Alexander was reported in the press today as saying that rough sleeping was not a housing problem. If the press report was accurate and that is what she thinks, she does not understand how homelessness occurs. Of course rough sleeping is a housing problem. It is also a poverty issue. Government policies are responsible for the increase in rough sleeping in Scotland. The most recent statistics indicate that around 1,000 people sleep rough on the streets of Scotland every night of the year. Ten years ago we rarely saw people sleeping rough, except for a hard core—usually old men with an alcohol problem. The increase in rough sleeping in Scotland in the late 1980s can be traced back to three factors: the removal of benefits for 16 to 18year- olds; the reduction in the amount of money for council housing; and care in the community, which was underfunded and left vulnerable people without the support needed to sustain their tenancies. Every one of those three factors was a Tory policy; every one of them was opposed by Labour in opposition; every one of them is embraced by new Labour in government. We need a commitment from the Executive to tackle not only rough sleeping, but homelessness in its wider sense. That means money to build new homes and to improve damp homes and houses that are lying empty because councils do not have the money—", "EditedTextHTML": "I would like to express my support for the rough sleepers initiative and I welcome the minister's announcement yesterday that she will find a further £6 million to fund it. It is not surprising that I would say that—when I worked for Shelter, I campaigned for a rough sleepers initiative. The initiative was first introduced in 1989 in London, but it was not until winter 1996 that Michael Forsyth agreed that we needed a rough sleepers initiative in Scotland. That was because of the shaming spectacle of people dying on our streets, which I think shocked even Michael Forsyth into action.

I share Fiona Hyslop's concern that the Executive is trying to redefine homelessness. Rough sleeping is the most visible form of homelessness, but it is not the only form. Wendy Alexander was reported in the press today as saying that rough sleeping was not a housing problem. If the press report was accurate and that is what she thinks, she does not understand how homelessness occurs.

Of course rough sleeping is a housing problem. It is also a poverty issue. Government policies are responsible for the increase in rough sleeping in Scotland. The most recent statistics indicate that around 1,000 people sleep rough on the streets of Scotland every night of the year. Ten years ago we rarely saw people sleeping rough, except for a hard core—usually old men with an alcohol problem. The increase in rough sleeping in Scotland in the late 1980s can be traced back to three factors: the removal of benefits for 16 to 18year- olds; the reduction in the amount of money for council housing; and care in the community, which was underfunded and left vulnerable people without the support needed to sustain their tenancies. Every one of those three factors was a Tory policy; every one of them was opposed by Labour in opposition; every one of them is embraced by new Labour in government.

We need a commitment from the Executive to tackle not only rough sleeping, but homelessness in its wider sense. That means money to build new homes and to improve damp homes and houses that are lying empty because councils do not have the money—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6390045+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2188E70P92C707988", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26832, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 869.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 869.0, "ID": 26832, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harper, Robin", "ID": 2188, "PartyName": "Scottish Green Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Green", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robin Harper", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robin Harper (Lothians) (Green) rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 957.0, "ContributionID": 707988, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6390045+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2188E70P92C707991", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26832, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 869.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 869.0, "ID": 26832, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harper, Robin", "ID": 2188, "PartyName": "Scottish Green Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Green", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robin Harper", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robin Harper: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 964.0, "ContributionID": 707991, "EditedText": "Will Mr Harding give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr Harding give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6390045+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2105E44P74C707992", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26832, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 869.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 869.0, "ID": 26832, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harding, Mr Keith", "ID": 2105, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Harding", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Harding: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 966.0, "ContributionID": 707992, "EditedText": "I would normally give way, but I have got only three minutes. Short-term support, help with furniture and long- term advice are required if we are to end the misery of homelessness and the problems faced by neighbourhoods in peripheral housing estates, where some homeless people find themselves dumped without the help or resources to make a home. I trust that the Executive will consider setting targets for local authorities to reduce homelessness, and in so doing identify and introduce best practice throughout Scotland in a determined effort to resolve this increasing problem. Conservatives are serious about the issue; we want to be constructive and will work with all parties to address the problem. On this occasion, we will support the SNP amendment, as we believe that it gives the necessary urgency to this Parliament's approach to housing issues.", "EditedTextHTML": "I would normally give way, but I have got only three minutes.

Short-term support, help with furniture and long- term advice are required if we are to end the misery of homelessness and the problems faced by neighbourhoods in peripheral housing estates, where some homeless people find themselves dumped without the help or resources to make a home.

I trust that the Executive will consider setting targets for local authorities to reduce homelessness, and in so doing identify and introduce best practice throughout Scotland in a determined effort to resolve this increasing problem. Conservatives are serious about the issue; we want to be constructive and will work with all parties to address the problem. On this occasion, we will support the SNP amendment, as we believe that it gives the necessary urgency to this Parliament's approach to housing issues.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6390045+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2056E57P84C707995", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26832, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 869.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 869.0, "ID": 26832, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James", "ID": 2056, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "James Douglas-Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Lord James Douglas-Hamilton (Lothians) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 975.0, "ContributionID": 707995, "EditedText": "Tackling homelessness is one of the most important challenges for the millennium. We have heard many good speeches on the subject this afternoon. I particularly welcome Wendy Alexander's commitment to support the bill that will deal with repossession. We see that bill as a major step forward. I would like to correct a statement that appeared in The Herald of 16 September. Paul Brown, of the Scottish Association of Law Centres, said: \"I don't think that Wendy Alexander really understands the issue.\" If I may say so, she has put that right this afternoon. As Margaret Curran said, the causes of homelessness are complex. They are also many and diverse. Some years ago, when I was housing minister, I learned that a large number of young Scots who were sleeping on the streets of London had been taken into a hostel in Soho. The location of the hostel—which was professionally run—did not put me off visiting it and I am glad to report that the civil servants whom I took with me showed no untoward interest in the surroundings. I met a young boy from Edinburgh who said that he had been treated extremely unkindly by his stepfather, which was why he had been sleeping rough in London. The causes of homelessness include harassment, mental illness, eviction—which Fiona Hyslop spoke about—alcohol and drug problems, and an inability to cope on release from prison. About two thirds of those who are classed as homeless give as their reason for being homeless a dispute with their partner or the unwillingness of friends or family to accommodate them. How effectively a nation deals with its homeless is a measure of its civilisation. Homelessness must be a national priority, so I welcome the creation of the task force, but the Executive must not forget to give it a budget. I also invite the minister to confirm that stock transfers will take account of homelessness issues. There is a vital need for a package of measures, which is why Margaret Curran called for a comprehensive youth strategy, for example. It is not enough to have special allocations for local authorities that submit bids for good projects through the rough sleepers initiative, whether those projects are to create more hostels, to bring empty houses back into use or to create more move-on accommodation—although, as Tricia Marwick said, it is vital that we have permanent housing for people to move into. Homelessness needs a comprehensive approach. I welcome the support given by the minister to voluntary organisations such as Shelter, the Churches and charities. I know that, because the charity Borderline received grant funding of £72,300 this year, it was able to make 230 placements in hostels. It also issued 317 travel warrants and 396 birth certificates to enable people to prove their identities to obtain hostel beds, although it is a sad state of affairs when people have to establish their identity through birth certificates. Mike Watson mentioned the role of Shelter. I am proud to have been able to give it a grant of more than £90,000 to help to set up a homeless persons legal advisory service, which I am sure is doing an extremely good job. In conclusion, I invite the Minister for Communities to introduce the rough sleepers initiative throughout Scotland as soon as possible. We see that as a top priority.", "EditedTextHTML": "Tackling homelessness is one of the most important challenges for the millennium. We have heard many good speeches on the subject this afternoon. I particularly welcome Wendy Alexander's commitment to support the bill that will deal with repossession. We see that bill as a major step forward.

I would like to correct a statement that appeared in The Herald of 16 September. Paul Brown, of the Scottish Association of Law Centres, said:

\"I don't think that Wendy Alexander really understands the issue.\"

If I may say so, she has put that right this afternoon.

As Margaret Curran said, the causes of homelessness are complex. They are also many and diverse. Some years ago, when I was housing minister, I learned that a large number of young Scots who were sleeping on the streets of London had been taken into a hostel in Soho. The location of the hostel—which was professionally run—did not put me off visiting it and I am glad to report that the civil servants whom I took with me showed no untoward interest in the surroundings. I met a young boy from Edinburgh who said that he had been treated extremely unkindly by his stepfather, which was why he had been sleeping rough in London.

The causes of homelessness include harassment, mental illness, eviction—which Fiona Hyslop spoke about—alcohol and drug problems, and an inability to cope on release from prison. About two thirds of those who are classed as homeless give as their reason for being homeless a dispute with their partner or the unwillingness of friends or family to accommodate them.

How effectively a nation deals with its homeless is a measure of its civilisation. Homelessness must be a national priority, so I welcome the creation of the task force, but the Executive must not forget to give it a budget. I also invite the minister to confirm that stock transfers will take account of homelessness issues.

There is a vital need for a package of measures, which is why Margaret Curran called for a comprehensive youth strategy, for example. It is not enough to have special allocations for local authorities that submit bids for good projects through the rough sleepers initiative, whether those projects are to create more hostels, to bring empty houses back into use or to create more move-on accommodation—although, as Tricia Marwick said, it is vital that we have permanent housing for people to move into. Homelessness needs a comprehensive approach.

I welcome the support given by the minister to voluntary organisations such as Shelter, the Churches and charities. I know that, because the charity Borderline received grant funding of £72,300 this year, it was able to make 230 placements in hostels. It also issued 317 travel warrants and 396 birth certificates to enable people to prove their identities to obtain hostel beds, although it is a sad state of affairs when people have to establish their identity through birth certificates.

Mike Watson mentioned the role of Shelter. I am proud to have been able to give it a grant of more than £90,000 to help to set up a homeless persons legal advisory service, which I am sure is doing an extremely good job.

In conclusion, I invite the Minister for Communities to introduce the rough sleepers initiative throughout Scotland as soon as possible. We see that as a top priority.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6390045+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C707997", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26832, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 869.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 869.0, "ID": 26832, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 980.0, "ContributionID": 707997, "EditedText": "Will Mr Quinan give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr Quinan give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6390045+00:00" }, { "ID": "C708001", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26833, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 987.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 987.0, "ID": 26833, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 991.0, "ContributionID": 708001, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6390045+00:00" }, { "ID": "C708011", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26833, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 987.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 987.0, "ID": 26833, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1008.0, "ContributionID": 708011, "EditedText": "Motion, as amended, agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion, as amended, agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6390045+00:00" }, { "ID": "C708017", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26833, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 987.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 987.0, "ID": 26833, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1016.0, "ContributionID": 708017, "EditedText": "Motion, as amended, agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion, as amended, agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6390045+00:00" }, { "ID": "C708018", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26833, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 987.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 987.0, "ID": 26833, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1017.0, "ContributionID": 708018, "EditedText": "That the Parliament notes that any financial settlement for workers at the Continental Tyre Company is a matter for negotiation between their Trade Union representatives and the company; notes that the Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning has urged the company to reach a fair and equitable settlement; notes that negotiations are in progress; hopes that they will reach a quick and positive outcome which takes account of all the relevant circumstances; and notes that the Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning will bring this motion to the attention of the Company when he meets them on Friday 17 September.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament notes that any financial settlement for workers at the Continental Tyre Company is a matter for negotiation between their Trade Union representatives and the company; notes that the Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning has urged the company to reach a fair and equitable settlement; notes that negotiations are in progress; hopes that they will reach a quick and positive outcome which takes account of all the relevant circumstances; and notes that the Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning will bring this motion to the attention of the Company when he meets them on Friday 17 September.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6390045+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708025", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26833, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 987.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 987.0, "ID": 26833, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1028.0, "ContributionID": 708025, "EditedText": "The sixth question is, that motion S1M-154, in the name of Ms Wendy Alexander, be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "The sixth question is, that motion S1M-154, in the name of Ms Wendy Alexander, be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6390045+00:00" }, { "ID": "C708026", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26833, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 987.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 987.0, "ID": 26833, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1030.0, "ContributionID": 708026, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6390045+00:00" }, { "ID": "C708027", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26833, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 987.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 987.0, "ID": 26833, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1031.0, "ContributionID": 708027, "EditedText": "That the Parliament agrees that the Scottish Executive is fully committed to tackling the scourge of homelessness in Scotland by virtue of its pledge in the Programme for Government that it will ensure that no-one has to sleep rough by 2003; by providing new accommodation and better support services, and by the establishment of a Task Force to (a) review the causes and nature of homelessness in Scotland, (b) examine current practice in dealing with cases of homelessness, and (c) make recommendations on how homelessness in Scotland can be best prevented and, where it does occur, tackled effectively.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament agrees that the Scottish Executive is fully committed to tackling the scourge of homelessness in Scotland by virtue of its pledge in the Programme for Government that it will ensure that no-one has to sleep rough by 2003; by providing new accommodation and better support services, and by the establishment of a Task Force to (a) review the causes and nature of homelessness in Scotland, (b) examine current practice in dealing with cases of homelessness, and (c) make recommendations on how homelessness in Scotland can be best prevented and, where it does occur, tackled effectively.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6390045+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708030", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26833, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 987.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 987.0, "ID": 26833, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1036.0, "ContributionID": 708030, "EditedText": "Order. That may be a matter for argument within the committee; it is certainly not a point of order for the Presiding Officer.", "EditedTextHTML": "Order. That may be a matter for argument within the committee; it is certainly not a point of order for the Presiding Officer.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6390045+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C708039", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Salmon Farming", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26834, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1038.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1038.0, "ID": 26834, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Goldie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1056.0, "ContributionID": 708039, "EditedText": "I suspected that that would be the case. From the point of view of this chamber, what is important is that article 1 of the first protocol to the European convention on human rights states: \"Every natural or legal person is entitled to the peaceful enjoyment of his possessions. No one shall be deprived of his possessions except in the public interest and subject to the conditions provided for by law and by the general principles of international law.\" If the United Kingdom compels a fish farmer to destroy his fish stocks, that would appear to amount to a prima facie interference with the farmer's peaceful enjoyment of his possessions. I appreciate that the minister may not be able to give a simple—or indeed any—answer on this point, but I am compelled to raise it and I thank Tavish again for letting me take part in the debate. I am compelled to raise the point because it strikes at the very heart of the commercial sustainability of a major part of our industry in Highland and rural communities. I shall be grateful if the minister responds in any way that he can to that concern.", "EditedTextHTML": "I suspected that that would be the case. From the point of view of this chamber, what is important is that article 1 of the first protocol to the European convention on human rights states:

\"Every natural or legal person is entitled to the peaceful enjoyment of his possessions. No one shall be deprived of his possessions except in the public interest and subject to the conditions provided for by law and by the general principles of international law.\"

If the United Kingdom compels a fish farmer to destroy his fish stocks, that would appear to amount to a prima facie interference with the farmer's peaceful enjoyment of his possessions.

I appreciate that the minister may not be able to give a simple—or indeed any—answer on this point, but I am compelled to raise it and I thank Tavish again for letting me take part in the debate. I am compelled to raise the point because it strikes at the very heart of the commercial sustainability of a major part of our industry in Highland and rural communities. I shall be grateful if the minister responds in any way that he can to that concern.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2066E64P88C708043", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Salmon Farming", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26834, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1038.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1038.0, "ID": 26834, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McGrigor, Jamie", "ID": 2066, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie McGrigor", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Jamie McGrigor (Highlands and Islands) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1067.0, "ContributionID": 708043, "EditedText": "I do not know how, but I will try to condense my remarks. I am pleased to support Tavish Scott's motion and congratulate him on raising this issue. Shetland is, of course, part of the Highlands and Islands, although with its admirable independence, it has the Shetland Salmon Farmers Association. Shetland has a reputation for producing the best salmon in Scotland—the fish certainly look and taste better than most. I want, however, to widen the debate to cover the problems faced by the Scottish Salmon Growers Association, the other main relevant body in the Highlands and Islands, whose members face the same problems as those faced in Shetland. ISA was classified as exotic by the European Union, which unfortunately means that stock has to be destroyed. Unlike in Norway and Canada, where ISA is simply controlled, we try to eliminate it. That has led to the slaughter of many thousands of perfectly healthy salmon of different sizes. In any other business, especially agriculture, which is similar to aquaculture, compensation would be paid for slaughtered stock, if the slaughter was deemed to be in the public interest. The Executive's response was to say that £9 million would be made available to the industry, provided that the industry could match that sum pound for pound. That was unacceptable to the salmon farmers, who were not only reeling from the effects of ISA, but were having to deal with the collapse in salmon prices. The farmers posed the question—which I asked in the chamber—whether the Executive would act as a guarantor for the insurance of the salmon farmers' stock. The Executive's answer was non-committal, although it was obvious that the matter was being considered. Such a solution seemed good—a Scottish solution to a Scottish problem—and was what the industry wanted. In any other fish farming country, insurance can easily be obtained with the payment of a sum equal to the value of a small percentage of the farmer's stock. However, in Scotland, because ISA-infected stock is completely destroyed, there is no collateral on which to obtain such insurance. The Executive has liaised with Westminster and produced a £9 million package for Scottish salmon growers. The earlier demand for a pound-forpound match has been removed, and I will not call the sum of £3 million insulting, as any help for the industry is welcome. However, why was it necessary to go to Westminster? If the Scottish Parliament is meant to act closely with the Scottish people and with Scottish industry, why could it not—and, better still, why cannot it now—change its mind and accept a uniquely Scottish solution to a uniquely Scottish problem? Under these difficult circumstances, I ask the Executive to act as a guarantor for the insurance of Scotland's salmon farming industry.", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not know how, but I will try to condense my remarks.

I am pleased to support Tavish Scott's motion and congratulate him on raising this issue.

Shetland is, of course, part of the Highlands and Islands, although with its admirable independence, it has the Shetland Salmon Farmers Association. Shetland has a reputation for producing the best salmon in Scotland—the fish certainly look and taste better than most.

I want, however, to widen the debate to cover the problems faced by the Scottish Salmon Growers Association, the other main relevant body in the Highlands and Islands, whose members face the same problems as those faced in Shetland.

ISA was classified as exotic by the European Union, which unfortunately means that stock has to be destroyed. Unlike in Norway and Canada, where ISA is simply controlled, we try to eliminate it. That has led to the slaughter of many thousands of perfectly healthy salmon of different sizes. In any other business, especially agriculture, which is similar to aquaculture, compensation would be paid for slaughtered stock, if the slaughter was deemed to be in the public interest.

The Executive's response was to say that £9 million would be made available to the industry, provided that the industry could match that sum pound for pound. That was unacceptable to the salmon farmers, who were not only reeling from the effects of ISA, but were having to deal with the collapse in salmon prices. The farmers posed the question—which I asked in the chamber—whether the Executive would act as a guarantor for the insurance of the salmon farmers' stock. The Executive's answer was non-committal, although it was obvious that the matter was being considered.

Such a solution seemed good—a Scottish solution to a Scottish problem—and was what the industry wanted. In any other fish farming country, insurance can easily be obtained with the payment of a sum equal to the value of a small percentage of the farmer's stock. However, in Scotland, because ISA-infected stock is completely destroyed, there is no collateral on which to obtain such insurance.

The Executive has liaised with Westminster and produced a £9 million package for Scottish salmon growers. The earlier demand for a pound-forpound match has been removed, and I will not call the sum of £3 million insulting, as any help for the industry is welcome. However, why was it necessary to go to Westminster? If the Scottish Parliament is meant to act closely with the Scottish people and with Scottish industry, why could it not—and, better still, why cannot it now—change its mind and accept a uniquely Scottish solution to a uniquely Scottish problem? Under these difficult circumstances, I ask the Executive to act as a guarantor for the insurance of Scotland's salmon farming industry.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C708044", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Salmon Farming", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26834, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1038.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1038.0, "ID": 26834, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1069.0, "ContributionID": 708044, "EditedText": "Mr Hamilton, you will have until 17:32 and 30 seconds.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Hamilton, you will have until 17:32 and 30 seconds.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2068E171P304C708046", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Salmon Farming", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26834, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1038.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1038.0, "ID": 26834, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stone, Jamie", "ID": 2068, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie Stone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD) rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1074.0, "ContributionID": 708046, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2085E206P337C708054", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Salmon Farming", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26834, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1038.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1038.0, "ID": 26834, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Munro, John Farquhar", "ID": 2085, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ross, Skye and Inverness West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Farquhar Munro", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr John Munro (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1091.0, "ContributionID": 708054, "EditedText": "Will you take an intervention?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will you take an intervention?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2100E64P254C708055", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Salmon Farming", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26834, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1038.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1038.0, "ID": 26834, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Home Robertson, John", "ID": 2100, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Lothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "John Home Robertson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Home Robertson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1093.0, "ContributionID": 708055, "EditedText": "I am sorry, I do not have time. I apologise. The eradication measures that are required—compulsory slaughter, movement controls and a fallowing period—have hit the industry hard. Given the financial costs of ISA and the potential damage to the industry's public image, eradication is in the best interests of the industry and will remain our ultimate goal. I accept that in some respects—the fallowing of sites, for example—we should be able to exercise greater discretion in future and, in so doing, bring some relief to the industry. I also recognise that there may be a case for greater flexibility within the statutory rules, such as a more managed approach to the slaughter of infected stocks. Mr Scott made the case for that more flexible approach, as did George Lyon and my colleague Maureen Macmillan. The Executive has now submitted proposals to Brussels to secure additional flexibility if we reach a position where the present strategy appears to be unsustainable. I hope that the industry will work with us in consideration of that contingency, if it arises. It may take until the end of the year before we get a conclusive reply from the European Union, but we have set things in motion. In conclusion, Presiding Officer, £9 million of public money has been found by the Executive despite many other competing priorities. That demonstrates the Government's desire to support the salmon farming industry, because it is so important to the remote areas of Scotland. Government energies must now be urgently directed into working out the details of the Highlands and Islands Enterprise scheme and securing appropriate state aid clearance from Brussels. Applications will be invited as soon as possible, and we expect Highlands and Islands Enterprise to be in a position to publish their plans within the next couple of months. We are doing as much as we can, as fast as we can. I am grateful to Mr Scott and to other colleagues for raising this important issue and I hope that I have been of some assistance.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry, I do not have time. I apologise. The eradication measures that are required—compulsory slaughter, movement controls and a fallowing period—have hit the industry hard. Given the financial costs of ISA and the potential damage to the industry's public image, eradication is in the best interests of the industry and will remain our ultimate goal. I accept that in some respects—the fallowing of sites, for example—we should be able to exercise greater discretion in future and, in so doing, bring some relief to the industry.

I also recognise that there may be a case for greater flexibility within the statutory rules, such as a more managed approach to the slaughter of infected stocks. Mr Scott made the case for that more flexible approach, as did George Lyon and my colleague Maureen Macmillan. The Executive

has now submitted proposals to Brussels to secure additional flexibility if we reach a position where the present strategy appears to be unsustainable. I hope that the industry will work with us in consideration of that contingency, if it arises. It may take until the end of the year before we get a conclusive reply from the European Union, but we have set things in motion.

In conclusion, Presiding Officer, £9 million of public money has been found by the Executive despite many other competing priorities. That demonstrates the Government's desire to support the salmon farming industry, because it is so important to the remote areas of Scotland. Government energies must now be urgently directed into working out the details of the Highlands and Islands Enterprise scheme and securing appropriate state aid clearance from Brussels. Applications will be invited as soon as possible, and we expect Highlands and Islands Enterprise to be in a position to publish their plans within the next couple of months. We are doing as much as we can, as fast as we can.

I am grateful to Mr Scott and to other colleagues for raising this important issue and I hope that I have been of some assistance.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "C708057", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Salmon Farming", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26834, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1038.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1038.0, "ID": 26834, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1097.0, "ContributionID": 708057, "EditedText": "Meeting closed at 17:40.", "EditedTextHTML": "Meeting closed at 17:40.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1783E59P270C707826", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26804, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 566.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26805, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "QuestionHeading": "Domestic Violence", "QuestionHeadingID": 26810, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 600.0, "DisplayOrder": 600.0, "ID": 26810, "ParentID": 26805 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Baillie, Jackie", "ID": 1783, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumbarton" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Jackie Baillie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Communities (Jackie Baillie): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 603.0, "ContributionID": 707826, "EditedText": "Refuge spaces for women and their children fleeing domestic violence are provided by local Women's Aid refuges, which are funded by local authorities.", "EditedTextHTML": "Refuge spaces for women and their children fleeing domestic violence are provided by local Women's Aid refuges, which are funded by local authorities.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:09:11.3687532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1783E59P270C707828", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26804, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 566.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26805, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "QuestionHeading": "Domestic Violence", "QuestionHeadingID": 26810, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 600.0, "DisplayOrder": 600.0, "ID": 26810, "ParentID": 26805 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Baillie, Jackie", "ID": 1783, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumbarton" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Jackie Baillie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Jackie Baillie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 607.0, "ContributionID": 707828, "EditedText": "As the person who replied to that debate, I can assure Ms Hyslop that the Scottish partnership on domestic violence, which is currently charged with devising a work plan and a long-term strategy, will report on the consistency and quality of provision across Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "As the person who replied to that debate, I can assure Ms Hyslop that the Scottish partnership on domestic violence, which is currently charged with devising a work plan and a long-term strategy, will report on the consistency and quality of provision across Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:09:11.3687532+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2110E214P424C707684", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gibson, Kenneth", "ID": 2110, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenneth Gibson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Gibson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 292.0, "ContributionID": 707684, "EditedText": "No, I am afraid it did not. I am sorry, but that is factually inaccurate. I suggest that Mr Tosh look at the report, \"Scottish Transport Statistics\". Perhaps then he would stand corrected.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I am afraid it did not. I am sorry, but that is factually inaccurate. I suggest that Mr Tosh look at the report, \"Scottish Transport Statistics\". Perhaps then he would stand corrected.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:05:19.2124205+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2110E214P424C707696", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gibson, Kenneth", "ID": 2110, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenneth Gibson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Gibson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 316.0, "ContributionID": 707696, "EditedText": "I am not even a quarter of the way through, Brian, otherwise I would let you in, honestly.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am not even a quarter of the way through, Brian, otherwise I would let you in, honestly.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:05:19.2124205+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2110E214P424C707700", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gibson, Kenneth", "ID": 2110, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenneth Gibson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Gibson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 324.0, "ContributionID": 707700, "EditedText": "One minute, George.Locals are furious at the new bus services. They claim that the providers are interested only in profits and that they are ignoring the public. The following day, 10 September, another Evening Times article contained similar remarks. FirstGlasgow's press release said that the overground was supposed to be a \"groundbreaking service designed specifically to increase bus journeys by making access simple and easy.\" That is an example of a supposed quality partnership in action. What we need is quality contracts, not quality partnerships in which one or more partners may move the goalposts. We must regulate operators through negotiated contracts that are legally enforceable. Those contracts must ensure that timetables are adhered to and that a realistic pricing structure is put in place to enable people on a minimum wage and the socially excluded to afford to travel to work. We must insist on high standards of comfort and safety and on more low-floor, articulated, high- capacity vehicles that will allow increased access to the disabled. The best operators will support such contracts because they will provide stability and keep out the numerous cowboys. We need an integrated public transport network that provides effective and affordable links to ensure that every community has full access to employment opportunities, leisure and shopping facilities. Andy Kerr raised a point about the environment to which I would like to respond. Why has the Government changed the national air strategy so that, rather than action being taken in an area when particulates register above a safe level on four occasions in a year, action is now taken only when particulates register above safe levels 35 times over the year?", "EditedTextHTML": "One minute, George.

Locals are furious at the new bus services. They claim that the providers are interested only in profits and that they are ignoring the public. The following day, 10 September, another Evening Times article contained similar remarks. FirstGlasgow's press release said that the overground was supposed to be a

\"groundbreaking service designed specifically to increase bus journeys by making access simple and easy.\"

That is an example of a supposed quality partnership in action. What we need is quality contracts, not quality partnerships in which one or more partners may move the goalposts. We must regulate operators through negotiated contracts that are legally enforceable. Those contracts must ensure that timetables are adhered to and that a realistic pricing structure is put in place to enable people on a minimum wage and the socially excluded to afford to travel to work.

We must insist on high standards of comfort and safety and on more low-floor, articulated, high- capacity vehicles that will allow increased access to the disabled. The best operators will support such contracts because they will provide stability and keep out the numerous cowboys. We need an integrated public transport network that provides effective and affordable links to ensure that every community has full access to employment opportunities, leisure and shopping facilities.

Andy Kerr raised a point about the environment to which I would like to respond. Why has the Government changed the national air strategy so that, rather than action being taken in an area when particulates register above a safe level on four occasions in a year, action is now taken only when particulates register above safe levels 35 times over the year?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:05:19.2124205+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2110E214P424C707881", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26804, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 566.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26805, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "QuestionHeading": "Local Government Finance", "QuestionHeadingID": 26823, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 725.0, "DisplayOrder": 725.0, "ID": 26823, "ParentID": 26805 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gibson, Kenneth", "ID": 2110, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenneth Gibson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "20. Mr Kenneth Gibson (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 726.0, "ContributionID": 707881, "EditedText": "As well as welcoming Dafydd Wigley to the chamber, we should welcome back the sadly missed Keith Raffan. To ask the Scottish Executive what action it intends to take to ensure that Scottish local authorities are fully cognisant with the terms of the Late Payment of Commercial Debts (Interest) Act 1998. (S1O-332)", "EditedTextHTML": "As well as welcoming Dafydd Wigley to the chamber, we should welcome back the sadly missed Keith Raffan. To ask the Scottish Executive what action it intends to take to ensure that Scottish local authorities are fully cognisant with the terms of the Late Payment of Commercial Debts (Interest) Act 1998. (S1O-332)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:10:44.6159122+00:00" }, { "ID": "C707542", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Thursday 16 September 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26800, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26800, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 2.0, "ContributionID": 707542, "EditedText": "THE PRESIDING OFFICER opened the meeting at 09:31", "EditedTextHTML": "[THE PRESIDING OFFICER opened the meeting at 09:31]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C707545", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Thursday 16 September 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26800, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26800, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 7.0, "ContributionID": 707545, "EditedText": "Under standing orders 8.2.6 and 5.5.4, I am prepared to accept motion S1M-00158. If the Parliament decides to allow a debate on the motion without notice, it will have to take place at 12 o'clock today, which means that the non-Executive business that is set down today will have to be cut short. It is entirely for the chamber to decide whether it will take this motion. The question is, that motion S1M-00158 be taken at this meeting of the Parliament. Are we all agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "Under standing orders 8.2.6 and 5.5.4, I am prepared to accept motion S1M-00158. If the Parliament decides to allow a debate on the motion without notice, it will have to take place at 12 o'clock today, which means that the non-Executive business that is set down today will have to be cut short. It is entirely for the chamber to decide whether it will take this motion.

The question is, that motion S1M-00158 be taken at this meeting of the Parliament. Are we all agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2223E203P342C707552", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scott, Tavish", "ID": 2223, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Shetland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tavish Scott", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tavish Scott (Shetland) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 22.0, "ContributionID": 707552, "EditedText": "Is Mr Tosh saying that the Conservatives are against the principle of tolling or just against the practice of tolling?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is Mr Tosh saying that the Conservatives are against the principle of tolling or just against the practice of tolling?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C707549", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Murray Tosh (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 16.0, "ContributionID": 707549, "EditedText": "In the past year or so, transport has leapt to the top of the country's political agenda. One would not necessarily conclude that by looking at the somewhat sparsely filled seats, but I am sure that we will have a lively debate as a number of issues have arisen in the past year to concentrate our minds on a matter that is of great importance to our country. There is the on-going story of the fuel escalator, which has reached such a level that it is beginning to cripple our haulage industry, and is damaging many parts of our country and, in particular, rural areas. There are the Government's proposals for new taxes and charges on motorists. There is the issue of the strategic roads programme, which this Parliament has discussed and on which the minister is due to make an announcement in the next few weeks. It is right that we should discuss those issues in a Scottish context. It is proper that we should consider the issue of congestion in our cities and at the various pinchpoints along our major arterial routes, as it causes us such difficulty. It is desirable that we should discuss the possibilities of promoting modal shifts; we should encourage bus use, and, as far as possible, a move from road to rail. It is highly desirable that this Parliament should consider air quality and vehicle emissions. I make it very clear that we agree with the Scottish Executive and the Minister for Transport and the Environment about the importance of continuing to examine those issues. This country has a record of attempting to tackle greenhouse gases and to reduce pollutants in the atmosphere. There must be no remission in that work. We accept that in that exercise there is scope for differential fuel duties, as have been imposed in the past, to encourage the use of fuels that are more environmentally acceptable. We accept that there is every justification for tight regulation on vehicle efficiency—on fuel emissions—and that part of the strategy to combat polluted air, particularly in our cities, is better traffic management. We are happy to support the Executive in positive initiatives such as that to switch freight from road to rail. However, we also recognise that promoting bus and rail use can do only so much to absorb the inevitable and on-going growth in transport, and that, whatever is achieved in this field, roads will continue to be at the heart of our strategic transport system: roads for freight, and for commuters and other private motorists. Road haulage demands good roads. It is vital to our industrial competitiveness that the cries of business are attended to, and that we do something to relieve the congestion that threatens the Scottish economy. It is important that we continue to make it possible for people to commute to work. It is the experience of so many of our countrymen and women that commuting is the only option to access work. We agree with the recent warning from Professor David Begg—whose name does not necessarily spring first from a Conservative spokesman's lips when discussing transport issues—that there is a danger that the Scottish Executive is swinging the pendulum too far away from roads.", "EditedTextHTML": "In the past year or so, transport has leapt to the top of the country's political agenda. One would not necessarily conclude that by looking at the somewhat sparsely filled seats, but I am sure that we will have a lively debate as a number of issues have arisen in the past year to concentrate our minds on a matter that is of great importance to our country.

There is the on-going story of the fuel escalator, which has reached such a level that it is beginning to cripple our haulage industry, and is damaging many parts of our country and, in particular, rural areas. There are the Government's proposals for new taxes and charges on motorists. There is the issue of the strategic roads programme, which this Parliament has discussed and on which the minister is due to make an announcement in the next few weeks.

It is right that we should discuss those issues in a Scottish context. It is proper that we should consider the issue of congestion in our cities and at the various pinchpoints along our major arterial routes, as it causes us such difficulty. It is desirable that we should discuss the possibilities of promoting modal shifts; we should encourage bus use, and, as far as possible, a move from road to rail.

It is highly desirable that this Parliament should consider air quality and vehicle emissions. I make it very clear that we agree with the Scottish Executive and the Minister for Transport and the Environment about the importance of continuing to examine those issues. This country has a record of attempting to tackle greenhouse gases and to reduce pollutants in the atmosphere. There must be no remission in that work. We accept that in that exercise there is scope for differential fuel duties, as have been imposed in the past, to encourage the use of fuels that are more environmentally acceptable.

We accept that there is every justification for tight regulation on vehicle efficiency—on fuel emissions—and that part of the strategy to combat polluted air, particularly in our cities, is better traffic management. We are happy to support the

Executive in positive initiatives such as that to switch freight from road to rail.

However, we also recognise that promoting bus and rail use can do only so much to absorb the inevitable and on-going growth in transport, and that, whatever is achieved in this field, roads will continue to be at the heart of our strategic transport system: roads for freight, and for commuters and other private motorists.

Road haulage demands good roads. It is vital to our industrial competitiveness that the cries of business are attended to, and that we do something to relieve the congestion that threatens the Scottish economy. It is important that we continue to make it possible for people to commute to work. It is the experience of so many of our countrymen and women that commuting is the only option to access work.

We agree with the recent warning from Professor David Begg—whose name does not necessarily spring first from a Conservative spokesman's lips when discussing transport issues—that there is a danger that the Scottish Executive is swinging the pendulum too far away from roads.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C707553", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 24.0, "ContributionID": 707553, "EditedText": "In the current climate, we are against the principle of tolling. The Government is attacking the motorist from every conceivable direction by means of the fuel escalator and the proposals for motorway tolls and city entry charges. If the press are correct in their interpretation of the minister's recent comments, there may be a proposal that strategic routes will be approved only on the basis of private finance initiatives, which are in turn backed by tolls. It appears that there is no intention of doing anything to repay motorists for the huge amounts of money that they pay into the exchequer.", "EditedTextHTML": "In the current climate, we are against the principle of tolling. The Government is attacking the motorist from every conceivable direction by means of the fuel escalator and the proposals for motorway tolls and city entry charges. If the press are correct in their interpretation of the minister's recent comments, there may be a proposal that strategic routes will be approved only on the basis of private finance initiatives, which are in turn backed by tolls.

It appears that there is no intention of doing anything to repay motorists for the huge amounts of money that they pay into the exchequer.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1778E91P257C707554", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Eadie, Helen", "ID": 1778, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dunfermline East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Helen Eadie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Helen Eadie (Dunfermline East) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 26.0, "ContributionID": 707554, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2140E187P335C707558", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Rumbles, Mike", "ID": 2140, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Rumbles", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Mike Rumbles (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 34.0, "ContributionID": 707558, "EditedText": "Will Mr Tosh give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr Tosh give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2223E203P342C707560", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scott, Tavish", "ID": 2223, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Shetland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tavish Scott", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tavish Scott: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 38.0, "ContributionID": 707560, "EditedText": "It was 5 per cent.", "EditedTextHTML": "It was 5 per cent.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C707561", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 40.0, "ContributionID": 707561, "EditedText": "We were not committed to continuing it to 2002. Above all, we are realists. If members consider the differential fuel price between this country and our European competitors in 1996-97, they will find that we were not significantly out of line. However, if members examine the differential this year, they will find that we are out of line, and the projections for 2002 show that we will be enormously out of line. One would have to be deaf not to hear what our road haulage industry is saying. One would have to be unfeeling not to have a twinge of concern about the impact of fuel prices on our rural areas. We must acknowledge that there is a strong feeling that we have reached the stage at which the escalator has gone too far. It is time to get our fuel prices back in line with those of our competitors. There are serious implications for our economy if we do not do that. We are not saying that we should never again increase fuel duty, nor are we saying that the proceeds from fuel duty should be spent on transport. That was never our policy. When we were in government in Westminster, we raised money from fuel for health and education and other areas of Government expenditure. There is a judgment to be made about when that has gone too far. There is an enormous body of opinion—in Scotland and in those areas that are affected most starkly by those issues—that the Government and the UK have gone too far. It is time that the Executive reflected that opinion back to Westminster. We also believe that there is a national problem of under-expenditure on transport. We trust that the large sum of money that the Chancellor managed to underspend by last year and the extra taxation that he is taking this year are not being retained for electoral purposes. We think that there is scope and justification for increasing UK expenditure on transport, with a consequent impact on Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "We were not committed to continuing it to 2002.

Above all, we are realists. If members consider the differential fuel price between this country and

our European competitors in 1996-97, they will find that we were not significantly out of line. However, if members examine the differential this year, they will find that we are out of line, and the projections for 2002 show that we will be enormously out of line.

One would have to be deaf not to hear what our road haulage industry is saying. One would have to be unfeeling not to have a twinge of concern about the impact of fuel prices on our rural areas. We must acknowledge that there is a strong feeling that we have reached the stage at which the escalator has gone too far. It is time to get our fuel prices back in line with those of our competitors. There are serious implications for our economy if we do not do that.

We are not saying that we should never again increase fuel duty, nor are we saying that the proceeds from fuel duty should be spent on transport. That was never our policy. When we were in government in Westminster, we raised money from fuel for health and education and other areas of Government expenditure. There is a judgment to be made about when that has gone too far. There is an enormous body of opinion—in Scotland and in those areas that are affected most starkly by those issues—that the Government and the UK have gone too far. It is time that the Executive reflected that opinion back to Westminster.

We also believe that there is a national problem of under-expenditure on transport. We trust that the large sum of money that the Chancellor managed to underspend by last year and the extra taxation that he is taking this year are not being retained for electoral purposes. We think that there is scope and justification for increasing UK expenditure on transport, with a consequent impact on Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1888E265P358C707562", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morgan, Alasdair", "ID": 1888, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Galloway and Upper Nithsdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morgan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alasdair Morgan (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 42.0, "ContributionID": 707562, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C707567", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 52.0, "ContributionID": 707567, "EditedText": "The minister asked what the Conservative Government had done. The answer is the M74, the M77, the St James interchange next to Glasgow airport, the Edinburgh city bypass and major improvements to the A9. We did a great deal to improve the strategic transport network. That work was not finished—we expect the Government to finish it.", "EditedTextHTML": "The minister asked what the Conservative Government had done. The answer is the M74, the M77, the St James interchange next to Glasgow airport, the Edinburgh city bypass

and major improvements to the A9. We did a great deal to improve the strategic transport network. That work was not finished—we expect the Government to finish it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C707573", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 64.0, "ContributionID": 707573, "EditedText": "The previous Conservative Government did not propose tolling on any existing route or on any upgrade. It introduced powers—which are currently being used in Birmingham, for the first time, I think, since they were used for the Skye bridge—to construct a totally new road under a private finance initiative backed by tolls. We did not at any stage countenance or propose that we should impose tolls on existing motorways or on trunk roads that had been upgraded to motorway status. That was not in our election manifesto in 1997.", "EditedTextHTML": "The previous Conservative Government did not propose tolling on any existing route or on any upgrade. It introduced powers—which are currently being used in Birmingham, for the first time, I think, since they were used for the Skye bridge—to construct a totally new road under a private finance initiative backed by tolls. We did not at any stage countenance or propose that we should impose tolls on existing motorways or on trunk roads that had been upgraded to motorway status. That was not in our election manifesto in 1997.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C707576", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 70.0, "ContributionID": 707576, "EditedText": "That is not a point of order, although it may be a point of information.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is not a point of order, although it may be a point of information.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2112E192P495C707600", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacAskill, Kenny", "ID": 2112, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenny MacAskill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Kenny MacAskill (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 119.0, "ContributionID": 707600, "EditedText": "I was astonished when the minister criticised the Tories for their over-ambitious programme in government. We have always criticised the Conservatives' lack of ambition in our country during the same years. The debate has centred on the issues of current costs and of who is to blame for getting us into this situation. However, we believe that there is a bigger issue to address. As I think the Tories pointed out, with the millennium approaching, we are part of a global economy and transport is fundamental for our nation to be viable and to survive economically. We need trade links to allow the economy to boom. However, we lag behind other nations because of the lack of good transport links to the south, to Europe and internationally, and that will damage us. We need to work out a strategy to address the problems. I would like to provide a definition of the purpose of transport. First, transport should facilitate the movement of trade, commerce and people to provide a base for economic advancement in a global economy. Secondly, it should provide the structure by which people in urban and people in rural areas—who are currently excluded through geographical isolation—can be brought into the economic and social fabric of our society. That should be the fundamental ethos behind our transport policy. Such a policy should allow us both to trade externally and to look after people internally whether they are isolated in an island region or stuck in a peripheral housing scheme in one of our larger cities. To assess the current situation, we have to examine the existing transport infrastructure. Our trunk road network is inadequate, despite the Executive's suggestion that there has been an ambitious programme of road building. We have poor ferry communications and ferry links. We await the opening of the ferry link to the European continent—and about time, too. However, of the three organisations mentioned in connection with the link in yesterday's Edinburgh Evening News, not one was the Scottish Executive. Where is the Executive's drive and desire to achieve that link? We have limited air links. We talk about the financial service sector in Edinburgh but, although there are flights from the Republic of Ireland to five German cities—to the main hub and axis of the European economy—in Scotland, we can fly to only one. It is an abomination that we are used as a spur to Heathrow and Gatwick. We were promised a direct rail link to the European continent, but that has not happened. Our trade is restricted and people going to Europe have to change at King's Cross or Euston and travel across London. That is not good enough. Furthermore, access to rural areas is poorly resourced. Although I welcome any further funding for rural areas, the fact is that the air service in the Highlands and Islands is inadequate. Part of the problem is terminology. We should not talk about lifeline routes as if we were speaking about medivacking old grannies who are ill; we should be bringing in commerce and industry and allowing people to access those areas. My grandparents have benefited from being flown out to Raigmore hospital. However, if we are to make the western isles part of our booming economy in the next millennium, people should be able to fly, using a cheap and reliable service, from Stornoway either to Glasgow to make a connection or to Schipol airport. How did this situation arise? I am a bit incredulous at the Tories' comments, which were disingenuous. I meant to ask Murray whether there had been any benefits from our rail privatisation. Perhaps he will tell us now.", "EditedTextHTML": "I was astonished when the minister criticised the Tories for their over-ambitious programme in government. We have always criticised the Conservatives' lack of ambition in our country during the same years.

The debate has centred on the issues of current costs and of who is to blame for getting us into this

situation. However, we believe that there is a bigger issue to address. As I think the Tories pointed out, with the millennium approaching, we are part of a global economy and transport is fundamental for our nation to be viable and to survive economically. We need trade links to allow the economy to boom. However, we lag behind other nations because of the lack of good transport links to the south, to Europe and internationally, and that will damage us.

We need to work out a strategy to address the problems. I would like to provide a definition of the purpose of transport. First, transport should facilitate the movement of trade, commerce and people to provide a base for economic advancement in a global economy. Secondly, it should provide the structure by which people in urban and people in rural areas—who are currently excluded through geographical isolation—can be brought into the economic and social fabric of our society. That should be the fundamental ethos behind our transport policy. Such a policy should allow us both to trade externally and to look after people internally whether they are isolated in an island region or stuck in a peripheral housing scheme in one of our larger cities.

To assess the current situation, we have to examine the existing transport infrastructure. Our trunk road network is inadequate, despite the Executive's suggestion that there has been an ambitious programme of road building. We have poor ferry communications and ferry links. We await the opening of the ferry link to the European continent—and about time, too. However, of the three organisations mentioned in connection with the link in yesterday's Edinburgh Evening News, not one was the Scottish Executive. Where is the Executive's drive and desire to achieve that link?

We have limited air links. We talk about the financial service sector in Edinburgh but, although there are flights from the Republic of Ireland to five German cities—to the main hub and axis of the European economy—in Scotland, we can fly to only one. It is an abomination that we are used as a spur to Heathrow and Gatwick.

We were promised a direct rail link to the European continent, but that has not happened. Our trade is restricted and people going to Europe have to change at King's Cross or Euston and travel across London. That is not good enough.

Furthermore, access to rural areas is poorly resourced. Although I welcome any further funding for rural areas, the fact is that the air service in the Highlands and Islands is inadequate. Part of the problem is terminology. We should not talk about lifeline routes as if we were speaking about medivacking old grannies who are ill; we should be bringing in commerce and industry and allowing people to access those areas.

My grandparents have benefited from being flown out to Raigmore hospital. However, if we are to make the western isles part of our booming economy in the next millennium, people should be able to fly, using a cheap and reliable service, from Stornoway either to Glasgow to make a connection or to Schipol airport.

How did this situation arise? I am a bit incredulous at the Tories' comments, which were disingenuous. I meant to ask Murray whether there had been any benefits from our rail privatisation. Perhaps he will tell us now.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2112E192P495C707604", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacAskill, Kenny", "ID": 2112, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenny MacAskill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr MacAskill: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 127.0, "ContributionID": 707604, "EditedText": "The SNP is not going to take lectures from those who privatised the railways, deregulated the buses, left the public to pay the price and left a poorer service with higher prices. The only gain from rail privatisation is the gain in Railtrack's profits. Everything else remained static.", "EditedTextHTML": "The SNP is not going to take lectures from those who privatised the railways, deregulated the buses, left the public to pay the price and left a poorer service with higher prices. The only gain from rail privatisation is the gain in Railtrack's profits. Everything else remained static.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C707605", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 129.0, "ContributionID": 707605, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C707607", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 133.0, "ContributionID": 707607, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1840E82P158C707609", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macmillan, Maureen", "ID": 1840, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Maureen Macmillan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Maureen Macmillan (Highlands and Islands) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 137.0, "ContributionID": 707609, "EditedText": "What price would the SNP set for petrol? Where would it make up the shortfall in taxation or what services would it cut?", "EditedTextHTML": "What price would the SNP set for petrol? Where would it make up the shortfall in taxation or what services would it cut?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2112E192P495C707610", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacAskill, Kenny", "ID": 2112, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenny MacAskill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr MacAskill: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 139.0, "ContributionID": 707610, "EditedText": "The Government does not set the price of petrol except in terms of excise duty. The price of petrol is set by the market price and by the excise duty that is charged thereafter. SNP members are saying that the fuel duty escalator should stop. The money that the Government gets must also be returned to Scotland. We do not accept what we are told—that we get our fair share.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Government does not set the price of petrol except in terms of excise duty. The price of petrol is set by the market price and by the excise duty that is charged thereafter.

SNP members are saying that the fuel duty escalator should stop. The money that the Government gets must also be returned to Scotland. We do not accept what we are told—that we get our fair share.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1803E78P291C707611", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gillon, Karen", "ID": 1803, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Clydesdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Karen Gillon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Karen Gillon (Clydesdale) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 141.0, "ContributionID": 707611, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2112E192P495C707619", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacAskill, Kenny", "ID": 2112, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenny MacAskill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr MacAskill: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 157.0, "ContributionID": 707619, "EditedText": "That smacks of the same U-turnthat we had the day after the consultation document was announced, when we were told that the money raised would be hypothecated. The Government's intentions are well canvassed. The minister may try to deny it, but the public know that they are paying the highest price for petrol in Europe. Now the Executive wants to toll them, too. Tolls are simply another hidden tax—similar to air passenger duty, landfill tax and insurance tax—which will be taken from people and put into the Treasury's coffers.", "EditedTextHTML": "That smacks of the same U-turn

that we had the day after the consultation document was announced, when we were told that the money raised would be hypothecated.

The Government's intentions are well canvassed. The minister may try to deny it, but the public know that they are paying the highest price for petrol in Europe. Now the Executive wants to toll them, too. Tolls are simply another hidden tax—similar to air passenger duty, landfill tax and insurance tax—which will be taken from people and put into the Treasury's coffers.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2112E192P495C707614", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacAskill, Kenny", "ID": 2112, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenny MacAskill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr MacAskill: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 147.0, "ContributionID": 707614, "EditedText": "Fire on, Andy.", "EditedTextHTML": "Fire on, Andy.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2112E192P495C707616", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacAskill, Kenny", "ID": 2112, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenny MacAskill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr MacAskill: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 151.0, "ContributionID": 707616, "EditedText": "If Andy bears with me, I will come to that. There is a difference between user congestion charges in cities and motorway tolls. That is certainly what David Begg seems to think, and he is an adviser to the Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions. David Begg made it clear to the Transport and the Environment Committee that he thought that motorway tolls were not on, but that user congestion charging required consideration. There is no environmental argument in favour of motorway tolls. They will not put road users off; indeed, the Government cannot predict what effect they would have. We all know that they would cause mayhem. We do not need a transport consultant to tell us that, if there were tolls on the M8, Salsburgh, Whitburn, Harthill and West Calder would be rat-runs. The same number of people will travel, but they will choose a different route. The people who will pay the price will be those with young families and those who require to cross the road in those communities. That is why North Lanarkshire Council and West Lothian Council, which are Labour controlled, have made their position clear—they do not want motorway tolls.", "EditedTextHTML": "If Andy bears with me, I will come to that.

There is a difference between user congestion charges in cities and motorway tolls. That is certainly what David Begg seems to think, and he is an adviser to the Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions. David Begg made it clear to the Transport and the Environment Committee that he thought that motorway tolls were not on, but that user congestion charging required consideration.

There is no environmental argument in favour of motorway tolls. They will not put road users off; indeed, the Government cannot predict what effect they would have. We all know that they would cause mayhem. We do not need a transport consultant to tell us that, if there were tolls on the M8, Salsburgh, Whitburn, Harthill and West Calder would be rat-runs. The same number of people will travel, but they will choose a different route. The people who will pay the price will be those with young families and those who require to cross the road in those communities. That is why North Lanarkshire Council and West Lothian Council, which are Labour controlled, have made their position clear—they do not want motorway tolls.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1803E78P291C707620", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gillon, Karen", "ID": 1803, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Clydesdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Karen Gillon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Karen Gillon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 159.0, "ContributionID": 707620, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C707622", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 163.0, "ContributionID": 707622, "EditedText": "The member is on his final 30 seconds.", "EditedTextHTML": "The member is on his final 30 seconds.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2112E192P495C707623", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacAskill, Kenny", "ID": 2112, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenny MacAskill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr MacAskill: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 165.0, "ContributionID": 707623, "EditedText": "We face the possibility of petrol at £4.30 per gallon by the end of this parliamentary session. On top of that, the Labour Executive proposes road tolling. If we assume a toll at the rate of 5p a mile for the M8, motorists could have to pay close to £1,000 per annum. At the end of the Labour Executive's term, the motorist will be paying £4.30 a gallon as well as £1,000 a year for travelling up and down the M8. Interruption. Labour members may laugh, but the people out there know that I am right", "EditedTextHTML": "We face the possibility of petrol at £4.30 per gallon by the end of this parliamentary session. On top of that, the Labour Executive proposes road tolling. If we assume a toll at the rate of 5p a mile for the M8, motorists could have to pay close to £1,000 per annum. At the end of the Labour Executive's term, the motorist will be paying £4.30 a gallon as well as £1,000 a year for travelling up and down the M8. [Interruption.] Labour members may laugh, but the people out there know that I am right

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1803E78P291C707625", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gillon, Karen", "ID": 1803, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Clydesdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Karen Gillon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Karen Gillon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 169.0, "ContributionID": 707625, "EditedText": "Mr MacAskill has got to give way.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr MacAskill has got to give way.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2112E192P495C707628", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacAskill, Kenny", "ID": 2112, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenny MacAskill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr MacAskill: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 175.0, "ContributionID": 707628, "EditedText": "Fire on. Applause.", "EditedTextHTML": "Fire on. [Applause.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C707635", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 189.0, "ContributionID": 707635, "EditedText": "Briefly, please.", "EditedTextHTML": "Briefly, please.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C707646", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 212.0, "ContributionID": 707646, "EditedText": "What are Mr Scott's views on paying off the Skye bridge debt and making the bridge toll free? During the 1999 election campaign, the Liberal Democrats campaigned to pay off the Skye bridge debt and won seats in the Highlands from the Labour party. How do they stand on paying off that debt now that they are in coalition with Labour?", "EditedTextHTML": "What are Mr Scott's views on paying off the Skye bridge debt and making the bridge toll free? During the 1999 election campaign, the Liberal Democrats campaigned to pay off the Skye bridge debt and won seats in the Highlands from the Labour party. How do they stand on paying off that debt now that they are in coalition with Labour?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C707648", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 216.0, "ContributionID": 707648, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2223E203P342C707649", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scott, Tavish", "ID": 2223, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Shetland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tavish Scott", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tavish Scott: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 218.0, "ContributionID": 707649, "EditedText": "I am just winding up. I hope that Mr McLetchie will forgive me if I do not allow him in to support the SNP. The crucial question for the SNP, which it did not answer last week, is how it will put more money into Scotland's transport needs. The money that the SNP raised from its \"penny for Scotland\" campaign was intended specifically for health, education and housing. There is nothing wrong with that, but the money was not intended for transport. We have yet to hear how the SNP would put more money into transport, and I am keen to hear clarification of that.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am just winding up. I hope that Mr McLetchie will forgive me if I do not allow him in to support the SNP.

The crucial question for the SNP, which it did not answer last week, is how it will put more money into Scotland's transport needs. The money that the SNP raised from its \"penny for Scotland\" campaign was intended specifically for health, education and housing. There is nothing wrong with that, but the money was not intended for transport. We have yet to hear how the SNP would put more money into transport, and I am keen to hear clarification of that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2223E203P342C707651", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scott, Tavish", "ID": 2223, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Shetland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tavish Scott", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tavish Scott: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 222.0, "ContributionID": 707651, "EditedText": "It is useful to know that it is one of the SNP's aspirations to create such links.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is useful to know that it is one of the SNP's aspirations to create such links.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2099E29P51C707658", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Young, John", "ID": 2099, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Young", "SpeakerDisplayName": "John Young (West of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 238.0, "ContributionID": 707658, "EditedText": "\"We will save before we spend. We have made no proposals to raise personal taxation for individual families. Indeed we would like to reduce taxes for ordinary families.\" Who said that? It was Tony Blair, before the election, yet Labour's transport plans will cost ordinary families at least an extra £100 per month. Tavish Scott, who unfortunately has disappeared from the chamber, may be a man of honour and honesty, but at a BBC television debate before the election on 6 May at the Museum of Transport in Glasgow, he heard many Liberal Democrat party members from the Highlands say that the car was a necessity—the car was king. Now, he is accusing the Conservatives of making the car king, yet his own people think the same thing. Perhaps he is away now getting a few calls from people telling him that. Who knows? I do not intend to get into the big battle between Labour and the SNP, but the cost of congestion charges, which the SNP supports, will be more than £1 every time users enter a city.", "EditedTextHTML": "\"We will save before we spend. We have made no proposals to raise personal taxation for individual families. Indeed we would like to reduce taxes for ordinary families.\"

Who said that? It was Tony Blair, before the election, yet Labour's transport plans will cost ordinary families at least an extra £100 per month.

Tavish Scott, who unfortunately has disappeared from the chamber, may be a man of honour and honesty, but at a BBC television debate before the election on 6 May at the Museum of Transport in Glasgow, he heard many Liberal Democrat party members from the Highlands say that the car was a necessity—the car was king. Now, he is accusing the Conservatives of making the car king, yet his own

people think the same thing. Perhaps he is away now getting a few calls from people telling him that. Who knows?

I do not intend to get into the big battle between Labour and the SNP, but the cost of congestion charges, which the SNP supports, will be more than £1 every time users enter a city.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C707661", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 244.0, "ContributionID": 707661, "EditedText": "Members should try to keep their speeches to a maximum of five minutes.", "EditedTextHTML": "Members should try to keep their speeches to a maximum of five minutes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2099E29P51C707666", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Young, John", "ID": 2099, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Young", "SpeakerDisplayName": "John Young rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 255.0, "ContributionID": 707666, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1751E163P286C707667", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Craigie, Cathie", "ID": 1751, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Cumbernauld and Kilsyth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Cathie Craigie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Cathie Craigie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 257.0, "ContributionID": 707667, "EditedText": "I will not give way to John Young—he did not give way, so neither will I.Scotland needs a transport policy that will tackle the problems of congestion, pollution and social exclusion.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will not give way to John Young—he did not give way, so neither will I.

Scotland needs a transport policy that will tackle the problems of congestion, pollution and social exclusion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C707668", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bruce Crawford: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 259.0, "ContributionID": 707668, "EditedText": "Cathie, will you give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Cathie, will you give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1751E163P286C707671", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Craigie, Cathie", "ID": 1751, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Cumbernauld and Kilsyth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Cathie Craigie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Cathie Craigie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 265.0, "ContributionID": 707671, "EditedText": "I think I need the protection of the Presiding Officer.", "EditedTextHTML": "I think I need the protection of the Presiding Officer.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C707673", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bruce Crawford: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 269.0, "ContributionID": 707673, "EditedText": "Do you agree that that is Conservative hypocrisy?", "EditedTextHTML": "Do you agree that that is Conservative hypocrisy?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1751E163P286C707677", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Craigie, Cathie", "ID": 1751, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Cumbernauld and Kilsyth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Cathie Craigie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Cathie Craigie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 277.0, "ContributionID": 707677, "EditedText": "No, I will not give way—Mr Young did not give way and so I will not give way to him.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I will not give way—Mr Young did not give way and so I will not give way to him.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2099E29P51C707678", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Young, John", "ID": 2099, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Young", "SpeakerDisplayName": "John Young: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 279.0, "ContributionID": 707678, "EditedText": "I did not give way to the SNP.", "EditedTextHTML": "I did not give way to the SNP.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C707681", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 286.0, "ContributionID": 707681, "EditedText": "Would it not be fair to say that two of the biggest transport companies in the world— Scottish-based and Scottish-owned—came about as a direct result of that deregulation?", "EditedTextHTML": "Would it not be fair to say that two of the biggest transport companies in the world— Scottish-based and Scottish-owned—came about as a direct result of that deregulation?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C707683", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 290.0, "ContributionID": 707683, "EditedText": "It did, actually.", "EditedTextHTML": "It did, actually.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2099E29P51C707689", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Young, John", "ID": 2099, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Young", "SpeakerDisplayName": "John Young rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 302.0, "ContributionID": 707689, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C707699", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 322.0, "ContributionID": 707699, "EditedText": "One minute.", "EditedTextHTML": "One minute.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1752E75P296C707709", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jamieson, Cathy", "ID": 1752, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Cathy Jamieson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Cathy Jamieson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 343.0, "ContributionID": 707709, "EditedText": "Does the member agree that rather than being concerned about his own transport arrangements or those of the business community, we ought to be concerned about opportunities for people in rural areas to access education, health services and the other necessities of daily life? Does he also agree that his party has proposed absolutely nothing that will enable people in rural communities to use those facilities?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the member agree that rather than being concerned about his own transport arrangements or those of the business community, we ought to be concerned about opportunities for people in rural areas to access education, health services and the other necessities of daily life? Does he also agree that his party has proposed absolutely nothing that will enable people in rural communities to use those facilities?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1962E35P56C707710", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mundell, David", "ID": 1962, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Mundell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David Mundell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 345.0, "ContributionID": 707710, "EditedText": "I was just about to come to that point. There is still no real alternative to the car after two years of Labour government, so it is no wonder that Government rhetoric appears to be empty and anti-rural. Having accepted that there is a difference between rural and urban transport needs, will the minister take that fact fully on board and do something about the problems? As others have said, the most fundamental thing that can be done in the short term is to lobby colleagues in the UK Government on fuel tax, and in particular to lobby the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Driving rural motorists off the road does not save the environment. I recently travelled from Langholm to Eskdalemuir and did not pass another car on the journey. The roads are not full of traffic—there is very little traffic on them. High fuel charging will damage the environment because, with the other difficulties that they face, they will drive upland farmers off the land. We will lose the managed hill landscape of much of Scotland that we have come to value so much. My final point is in connection with the maintenance of rural roads, particularly minor roads. It is vital that we continue with maintenance programmes. A lack of rural road maintenance impacts on the morale of communities and makes them think that the Government and councils are not concerned about them. It also gives tourists a bad impression. Their expenditure offers the principal opportunity for economic development. As my colleague Mr Tosh said, roads and economic development are inextricably linked, and nowhere more so than in rural Scotland. It is about time the Scottish Executive accepted that.", "EditedTextHTML": "I was just about to come to that point. There is still no real alternative to the car after two years of Labour government, so it is no wonder that Government rhetoric appears to be empty and anti-rural.

Having accepted that there is a difference between rural and urban transport needs, will the minister take that fact fully on board and do something about the problems?

As others have said, the most fundamental thing that can be done in the short term is to lobby colleagues in the UK Government on fuel tax, and in particular to lobby the Chancellor of the Exchequer.

Driving rural motorists off the road does not save the environment. I recently travelled from Langholm to Eskdalemuir and did not pass another car on the journey. The roads are not full of traffic—there is very little traffic on them. High fuel charging will damage the environment because, with the other difficulties that they face, they will drive upland farmers off the land. We will lose the managed hill landscape of much of Scotland that we have come to value so much.

My final point is in connection with the maintenance of rural roads, particularly minor roads. It is vital that we continue with maintenance programmes. A lack of rural road maintenance impacts on the morale of communities and makes them think that the Government and councils are not concerned about them. It also gives tourists a bad impression. Their expenditure offers the principal opportunity for economic development.

As my colleague Mr Tosh said, roads and economic development are inextricably linked, and nowhere more so than in rural Scotland. It is about time the Scottish Executive accepted that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2085E206P337C707711", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Munro, John Farquhar", "ID": 2085, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ross, Skye and Inverness West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Farquhar Munro", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr John Munro (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 348.0, "ContributionID": 707711, "EditedText": "Moran tàing, a' cheannard, agus bha mi air son aig tòiseachadh tòiseachdainn, facal neo dhà a' gabhail ann an cànain a' Ghaidheil. Tha mise a' fuireach an drasda ann an àite ann an iomall air a' Ghaidhealteachd, far am bheil sinne a' pàigheadh cìsean air rathaidean mar-thà. ‘Se sin cìsean as àirde anns an Rionn Eòrpa. Chaidh sin a' steidheachadh bho Riaghaltas nan Tories, bho'n a bha iadsan a' riaghladh ann an Lunnainn. Tha e a' cur ionghantas orm agus tha e gu math neònach gu bheil iad ag iarraidh na cìsean agus na ceistean mu dheidhinn cìsean a tharruing dhe na prìomh rathaidean ann an Alba.", "EditedTextHTML": "Moran tàing, a' cheannard, agus bha mi air son aig tòiseachadh tòiseachdainn, facal neo dhà a' gabhail ann an cànain a' Ghaidheil. Tha mise a' fuireach an drasda ann an àite ann an iomall air a' Ghaidhealteachd, far am bheil sinne a' pàigheadh cìsean air rathaidean mar-thà. ‘Se sin cìsean as àirde anns an Rionn Eòrpa. Chaidh sin a' steidheachadh bho Riaghaltas nan Tories, bho'n a bha iadsan a' riaghladh ann an Lunnainn. Tha e a' cur ionghantas orm agus tha e gu math neònach gu bheil iad ag iarraidh na cìsean agus na ceistean mu dheidhinn cìsean a tharruing dhe na prìomh rathaidean ann an Alba.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2123E103P242C707729", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Chisholm, Malcolm", "ID": 2123, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh North and Leith" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Malcolm Chisholm", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 390.0, "ContributionID": 707729, "EditedText": "I listened to Murray Tosh with disbelief. He criticised the fuel escalator. Who started it? He decried motorway tolling. Who introduced it? He bemoaned the crisis in roads funding. Who caused it? As Sarah Boyack said, there was a massive cut in the Scottish Office roads budget before 1997 and the Executive has tried to deal with the uncosted wish list that we inherited and to develop a clear set of priorities for road funding.", "EditedTextHTML": "I listened to Murray Tosh with disbelief. He criticised the fuel escalator. Who started it? He decried motorway tolling. Who introduced it? He bemoaned the crisis in roads funding. Who caused it? As Sarah Boyack said, there was a massive cut in the Scottish Office roads budget before 1997 and the Executive has tried to deal with the uncosted wish list that we inherited and to develop a clear set of priorities for road funding.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2085E206P337C707717", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Munro, John Farquhar", "ID": 2085, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ross, Skye and Inverness West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Farquhar Munro", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Munro: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 360.0, "ContributionID": 707717, "EditedText": "I thank Parliament for giving me the opportunity to start my speech in Gaelic, which— as everybody knows—is the language of the garden of Eden. I am sure that many great debates in the past were in Gaelic and I am sure that we will get that opportunity in the months and weeks ahead.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank Parliament for giving me the opportunity to start my speech in Gaelic, which— as everybody knows—is the language of the garden of Eden. I am sure that many great debates in the past were in Gaelic and I am sure that we will get that opportunity in the months and weeks ahead.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1778E91P257C707722", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Eadie, Helen", "ID": 1778, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dunfermline East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Helen Eadie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Helen Eadie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 373.0, "ContributionID": 707722, "EditedText": "Mr Tosh did not give way to me, so I will not give way to him. Who published a transport green paper in 1996 that declared a presumption in favour of introducing legislation to enable congestion charging and area licensing to be implemented? Who raised £24 billion a year in tax but spent only £4 billion on roads? By abandoning the fuel duty escalator, the Tories have not only abandoned their environmental programme, but opened up a huge spending hole.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Tosh did not give way to me, so I will not give way to him.

Who published a transport green paper in 1996 that declared a presumption in favour of introducing legislation to enable congestion charging and area licensing to be implemented? Who raised £24 billion a year in tax but spent only £4 billion on roads? By abandoning the fuel duty escalator, the Tories have not only abandoned their environmental programme, but opened up a huge spending hole.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1778E91P257C707724", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Eadie, Helen", "ID": 1778, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dunfermline East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Helen Eadie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Helen Eadie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 377.0, "ContributionID": 707724, "EditedText": "The Tory motion does not even mention support for public transport, although more than a third of households in Scotland do not have a car. Are the people of Scotland aware that the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents has condemned the Tory proposal to raise speed limits? How does that chime with the pleas of community councils and residents' associations for traffic calming measures? Where are the park- and-ride schemes across Scotland? They are few and far between. Labour authorities throughout Scotland developed them in spite of, not because of, the previous Tory Government's approach. Contrast the Tories' approach with that of a Government that has a clear strategy to support the development of integrated road and transport policies. The real enemy of business and the car user is congestion. The Confederation of British Industry estimates that clogged roads cost Britain £20 billion a year. I applaud the sound intervention that Bruce Crawford made this morning, when he attacked the Tories. I have to ask, however, whether the SNP will vote with the Tories on an amendment that will allow the level of transport spending to be determined by Westminster. The SNP campaign flies in the face of the comments that were made by its transport spokesperson at the Scottish Parliament Transport and the Environment Committee, and contradicts the SNP manifesto and the motion that was placed before last year's SNP conference by the party's leadership. The SNP has just joined the Green grouping in the European Parliament. It has always pretended to be all things to all voters. In Europe, however, SNP members sit with the Greens, among whose policies is the introduction of a 7 per cent fuel duty escalator and a doubling of the price of fossil fuels. Tavish Scott was right to expose the hypocrisy of SNP members. They tried to hide their budget for independence throughout the Scottish general election campaign, and eventually published it in April 1999. In that proposed budget they allocated fuel duty without any reduction. The manifesto stated that the SNP would support city centre charging schemes. Last year, the SNP conference endorsed a motion recognising that car pricing schemes may provide the revenue that is needed to develop alternatives. I look at my Tory friends across the chamber and ask, \"Who introduced bus deregulation?\" That policy left rural areas all over Scotland with no bus service at all. The Scottish Executive proposes quality partnerships, and the Scottish transport partnership proposals clearly state that standards, specifications and levels of service will be developed and embraced by local authorities throughout Scotland. This is the first attempt to deliver, in partnership with the bus companies rather than in confrontation with them, a real service to the people whom we really care about. Murray Tosh spoke about caring. If the Tories really cared, why have they not set those standards and specifications? The Scottish Executive's exciting proposals deserve to be embraced with vigour. I welcome the statement that was made by Sarah Boyack on Monday, allocating £10 million to freight transport. A Government that is committed to such policies is long overdue.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Tory motion does not even mention support for public transport, although more than a third of households in Scotland do not

have a car. Are the people of Scotland aware that the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents has condemned the Tory proposal to raise speed limits? How does that chime with the pleas of community councils and residents' associations for traffic calming measures? Where are the park- and-ride schemes across Scotland? They are few and far between. Labour authorities throughout Scotland developed them in spite of, not because of, the previous Tory Government's approach. Contrast the Tories' approach with that of a Government that has a clear strategy to support the development of integrated road and transport policies.

The real enemy of business and the car user is congestion. The Confederation of British Industry estimates that clogged roads cost Britain £20 billion a year. I applaud the sound intervention that Bruce Crawford made this morning, when he attacked the Tories. I have to ask, however, whether the SNP will vote with the Tories on an amendment that will allow the level of transport spending to be determined by Westminster.

The SNP campaign flies in the face of the comments that were made by its transport spokesperson at the Scottish Parliament Transport and the Environment Committee, and contradicts the SNP manifesto and the motion that was placed before last year's SNP conference by the party's leadership. The SNP has just joined the Green grouping in the European Parliament. It has always pretended to be all things to all voters. In Europe, however, SNP members sit with the Greens, among whose policies is the introduction of a 7 per cent fuel duty escalator and a doubling of the price of fossil fuels.

Tavish Scott was right to expose the hypocrisy of SNP members. They tried to hide their budget for independence throughout the Scottish general election campaign, and eventually published it in April 1999. In that proposed budget they allocated fuel duty without any reduction. The manifesto stated that the SNP would support city centre charging schemes. Last year, the SNP conference endorsed a motion recognising that car pricing schemes may provide the revenue that is needed to develop alternatives.

I look at my Tory friends across the chamber and ask, \"Who introduced bus deregulation?\" That policy left rural areas all over Scotland with no bus service at all. The Scottish Executive proposes quality partnerships, and the Scottish transport partnership proposals clearly state that standards, specifications and levels of service will be developed and embraced by local authorities throughout Scotland. This is the first attempt to deliver, in partnership with the bus companies rather than in confrontation with them, a real service to the people whom we really care about.

Murray Tosh spoke about caring. If the Tories really cared, why have they not set those standards and specifications? The Scottish Executive's exciting proposals deserve to be embraced with vigour. I welcome the statement that was made by Sarah Boyack on Monday, allocating £10 million to freight transport. A Government that is committed to such policies is long overdue.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C707726", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 382.0, "ContributionID": 707726, "EditedText": "I share Mr Robson's sentiments about the Waverley line, which I well remember as a boy living in Hawick. I also remember the Waverley line being closed by a Labour Government. Does he agree that the cost of reopening the Waverley line—and we should keep an open mind as to whether it should reopen in part or as a whole— should be borne by general taxation if there is to be any public sector input, rather than being funded by tolls levied on commuters from the Borders, who already face high transport charges in a low-wage area?", "EditedTextHTML": "I share Mr Robson's sentiments about the Waverley line, which I well remember as a boy living in Hawick. I also remember the Waverley line being closed by a Labour Government. Does he agree that the cost of reopening the Waverley line—and we should keep an open mind as to whether it should reopen in part or as a whole— should be borne by general taxation if there is to be any public sector input, rather than being

funded by tolls levied on commuters from the Borders, who already face high transport charges in a low-wage area?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C707730", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 392.0, "ContributionID": 707730, "EditedText": "Mr Chisholm said that we introduced tolled motorways. I would be interested to know where there is one in Scotland. I am not aware of any proposal for one.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Chisholm said that we introduced tolled motorways. I would be interested to know where there is one in Scotland. I am not aware of any proposal for one.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2123E103P242C707731", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Chisholm, Malcolm", "ID": 2123, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh North and Leith" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Malcolm Chisholm", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Malcolm Chisholm: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 394.0, "ContributionID": 707731, "EditedText": "Leaving aside the Skye bridge, when the Tories were in power there was only a UK Government and tolls were introduced by it in England. I remember that there were wiser voices in the Conservative party. John MacGregor, as Secretary of State for Transport, said in 1994 that increases in fuel duty and motorway tolls would help people to make more informed choices about the cost of using their cars. I listened with a different kind of disbelief to Mr MacAskill. Setting aside the fact that the SNP has applied to join the European Federation of Green Parties, which supports a much steeper fuel escalator and many other charges on motorists, I was struck today, as on so many days, by the SNP's wish list of undeliverable spending promises. Before the public spending round later this year, the SNP really must learn not just to promise more money for transport, more money for education, more money for health, more money for everything, without any indication of how it is going to be provided. The Executive has made an excellent start with £90 million for public transport and initiatives such as quality partnerships for buses. The Parliament should take the opportunity offered by complete control of bus policy in Scotland, which is a very important lever. The Executive has also understood that no matter how much public money we are able to find, it will never be enough. That is why the issue of road user charging has arisen. I know that Mr McLetchie is going to say that we do not need it, that there are other pots of gold. He will tell us that if the City of Edinburgh Council sells Lothian Region Transport it will not need to introduce congestion charging. Lothian Region Transport provides money every year from its surpluses for public transport in Edinburgh and if it is sold off that will be very bad economics—once again the Tory ideology of selling off the family silver—and, in the long run, it will cost the people of Edinburgh more. I was pleased that the SNP at least acknowledged a role for congestion charging. The Executive has put forward that proposal, but I emphasise that it will be up to local authorities to decide whether they want to do it. Already Glasgow City Council has indicated that it will not, but it may consider workplace charging. I felt, however, that Mr MacAskill caricatured the Executive's and David Begg's positions on motorway charging. As Sarah Boyack said, extensive research on diversion would be needed. David Begg has also said that he would support motorway charging if the money that it raised was used to develop public transport in the same traffic corridor. The Executive has a good story to tell on public transport. We should remember that a third of households in Scotland do not have a car. Promoting public transport is in the interests of the poorest and most excluded sections of society. It is good for pensioners—I hope that we will develop concessionary travel schemes—and for women, who are the main users of public transport. It is also good for reducing congestion in cities, which is in everyone's economic interest. The Executive should go on the offensive and sell the policy on public transport.", "EditedTextHTML": "Leaving aside the Skye bridge, when the Tories were in power there was only a UK Government and tolls were introduced by it in England. I remember that there were wiser voices in the Conservative party. John MacGregor, as Secretary of State for Transport, said in 1994 that increases in fuel duty and motorway tolls would help people to make more informed choices about the cost of using their cars.

I listened with a different kind of disbelief to Mr MacAskill. Setting aside the fact that the SNP has applied to join the European Federation of Green Parties, which supports a much steeper fuel escalator and many other charges on motorists, I was struck today, as on so many days, by the SNP's wish list of undeliverable spending promises. Before the public spending round later this year, the SNP really must learn not just to promise more money for transport, more money for education, more money for health, more money for everything, without any indication of how it is going to be provided.

The Executive has made an excellent start with £90 million for public transport and initiatives such as quality partnerships for buses. The Parliament should take the opportunity offered by complete control of bus policy in Scotland, which is a very important lever. The Executive has also understood that no matter how much public money we are able to find, it will never be enough. That is why the issue of road user charging has arisen. I know that Mr McLetchie is going to say that we do not need it, that there are other pots of gold. He will tell us that if the City of Edinburgh Council sells Lothian Region Transport it will not need to introduce congestion charging. Lothian Region Transport provides money every year from its surpluses for public transport in Edinburgh and if it is sold off that will be very bad economics—once again the Tory ideology of selling off the family silver—and, in the long run, it will cost the people of Edinburgh more.

I was pleased that the SNP at least acknowledged a role for congestion charging. The Executive has put forward that proposal, but I emphasise that it will be up to local authorities to decide whether they want to do it. Already Glasgow City Council has indicated that it will not, but it may consider workplace charging. I felt, however, that Mr MacAskill caricatured the Executive's and David Begg's positions on motorway charging. As Sarah Boyack said, extensive research on diversion would be needed. David Begg has also said that he would support motorway charging if the money that it raised was used to develop public transport in the same traffic corridor.

The Executive has a good story to tell on public transport. We should remember that a third of households in Scotland do not have a car. Promoting public transport is in the interests of the poorest and most excluded sections of society. It is good for pensioners—I hope that we will develop concessionary travel schemes—and for women, who are the main users of public transport. It is also good for reducing congestion in cities, which is in everyone's economic interest. The Executive should go on the offensive and sell the policy on public transport.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C707733", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 399.0, "ContributionID": 707733, "EditedText": "You have one minute.", "EditedTextHTML": "You have one minute.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C707735", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 403.0, "ContributionID": 707735, "EditedText": "Could you finish, please.", "EditedTextHTML": "Could you finish, please.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1986E53P206C707737", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeil, Duncan", "ID": 1986, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Greenock and Inverclyde" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan McNeil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Duncan McNeil (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 408.0, "ContributionID": 707737, "EditedText": "I thought that it was a risky strategy for the Tories to lead on this motion this morning. Their defence of it today at least has been commendable—Applause. However, as Kenny Gibson said, what a brass neck. Before the Scottish Parliament election, the Tories apologised for all their mistakes, but there was no apology this morning to those pensioners who cannot take a bus to church on a Sunday or visit their relatives in hospital at the weekend, and there was no regret for those who cannot get a bus after 6 o'clock at night. There was no word of concern for those who cannot get to work for early shifts within the Renfrewshire area, including Greenock and Inverclyde, which I represent.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thought that it was a risky strategy for the Tories to lead on this motion this morning. Their defence of it today at least has been commendable—[Applause.] However, as Kenny Gibson said, what a brass neck. Before the Scottish Parliament election, the Tories apologised for all their mistakes, but there was no apology this morning to those pensioners who cannot take a bus to church on a Sunday or visit their relatives in hospital at the weekend, and there was no regret for those who cannot get a bus after 6 o'clock at night. There was no word of concern for those who cannot get to work for early shifts within the Renfrewshire area, including Greenock and Inverclyde, which I represent.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C707740", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Goldie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 414.0, "ContributionID": 707740, "EditedText": "Will Mr McNeil give way now?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr McNeil give way now?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1986E53P206C707741", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeil, Duncan", "ID": 1986, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Greenock and Inverclyde" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan McNeil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McNeil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 416.0, "ContributionID": 707741, "EditedText": "No, I am going to press on. apologise for that, but I need to make a couple of points. No word of concern was expressed for Mr Dempster, whom I met at Greenock West station this morning, when again the train did not turn up at 6.30. He faxed me to say that he supports our integrated policy. I will tell him that no comfort came from the Conservatives this morning with regard to getting him from Greenock to Motherwell to work. The only comfort in this chamber this morning is the strategy that has been put forward by the Executive. When I get back to my office I will tell Mr Dempster that I am supporting the amendment and that everyone in this Parliament should do the same, because the only people who can offer a solution to the crisis that we face in our public transport system are the Executive. I hope that the Parliament supports the amendment.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I am going to press on. apologise for that, but I need to make a couple of points.

No word of concern was expressed for Mr Dempster, whom I met at Greenock West station this morning, when again the train did not turn up at 6.30. He faxed me to say that he supports our integrated policy. I will tell him that no comfort came from the Conservatives this morning with regard to getting him from Greenock to Motherwell to work. The only comfort in this chamber this morning is the strategy that has been put forward by the Executive.

When I get back to my office I will tell Mr Dempster that I am supporting the amendment and that everyone in this Parliament should do the same, because the only people who can offer a solution to the crisis that we face in our public transport system are the Executive. I hope that the Parliament supports the amendment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1814E135P516C707744", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Fabiani, Linda", "ID": 1814, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Linda Fabiani", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Linda Fabiani: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 423.0, "ContributionID": 707744, "EditedText": "As Kenny Gibson said, Mr Tosh should tell that story to Duncan McNeil and all the people waiting on platforms at 6.30 this morning. If we examine the Scottish statistical surveys, we see that railway privatisation has not been a success. The western world must face the fact that all transport issues affect the environment. Given the scale of the problem, the Executive's response to the \"Travel Choices for Scotland\" white paper is disappointing. \"Tackling Congestion\" is a fig leaf to conceal another tax-raising measure rather than an attempt to tackle the problem. We have been told that rural issues are the most important. I welcome that, as I lived on an island for many years and experienced the problems faced in rural areas. Until now, the focus has been almost exclusively on the central belt; it has been anchored in the distance travelled between Glasgow and Edinburgh. Even in that area, the Executive has run into difficulties. No one supports its ridiculous proposal to apply a toll tax to the M8. It is clear to everyone—apart from the Executive— that the toll tax would simply drive more traffic on to minor roads.", "EditedTextHTML": "As Kenny Gibson said, Mr Tosh should tell that story to Duncan McNeil and all the people waiting on platforms at 6.30 this morning. If we examine the Scottish statistical surveys, we see that railway privatisation has not been a success.

The western world must face the fact that all transport issues affect the environment. Given the scale of the problem, the Executive's response to the \"Travel Choices for Scotland\" white paper is disappointing. \"Tackling Congestion\" is a fig leaf to conceal another tax-raising measure rather than an attempt to tackle the problem.

We have been told that rural issues are the most important. I welcome that, as I lived on an island for many years and experienced the problems faced in rural areas. Until now, the focus has been almost exclusively on the central belt; it has been anchored in the distance travelled between Glasgow and Edinburgh. Even in that area, the Executive has run into difficulties. No one supports its ridiculous proposal to apply a toll tax to the M8. It is clear to everyone—apart from the Executive— that the toll tax would simply drive more traffic on to minor roads.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1908E166P251C707745", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Kerr, Andy", "ID": 1908, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Kilbride" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andy Kerr", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Kerr: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 425.0, "ContributionID": 707745, "EditedText": "Will Linda Fabiani give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Linda Fabiani give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1814E135P516C707748", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Fabiani, Linda", "ID": 1814, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Linda Fabiani", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Linda Fabiani: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 431.0, "ContributionID": 707748, "EditedText": "No. Perhaps Andrew will be lucky the third time that he asks. Many people would leave their car at home and some would not even buy a car if there were real alternatives. I will not become anecdotal by talking about the problems that I have had in getting to work without the use of my car. Other folk have outlined their problems. We cannot hammer motorists unless they have a viable alternative.", "EditedTextHTML": "No. Perhaps Andrew will be lucky the third time that he asks.

Many people would leave their car at home and some would not even buy a car if there were real alternatives. I will not become anecdotal by talking about the problems that I have had in getting to work without the use of my car. Other folk have outlined their problems. We cannot hammer motorists unless they have a viable alternative.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2080E130P217C707749", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lamont, Johann", "ID": 2080, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Pollok" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Johann Lamont", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Johann Lamont (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 433.0, "ContributionID": 707749, "EditedText": "I agree that this is a serious debate, so will Linda Fabiani explain why the SNP has chosen to settle for glibness—by using the phrase toll tax, for example—which closes down the debate about the options in transport policy? We should all discuss the challenging problems of meeting the pressing needs of the individual, such as those of a mother, and the general needs of the community.", "EditedTextHTML": "I agree that this is a serious debate, so will Linda Fabiani explain why the SNP has chosen to settle for glibness—by using the phrase toll tax, for example—which closes down the debate about the options in transport policy? We should all discuss the challenging problems of meeting the pressing needs of the individual, such as those of a mother, and the general needs of the community.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1908E166P251C707751", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Kerr, Andy", "ID": 1908, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Kilbride" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andy Kerr", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Kerr: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 437.0, "ContributionID": 707751, "EditedText": "Will Linda Fabiani give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Linda Fabiani give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1814E135P516C707752", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Fabiani, Linda", "ID": 1814, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Linda Fabiani", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Linda Fabiani: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 439.0, "ContributionID": 707752, "EditedText": "Yes; I said that I would probably give way the third time.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes; I said that I would probably give way the third time.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1908E166P251C707753", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Kerr, Andy", "ID": 1908, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Kilbride" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andy Kerr", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Kerr: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 441.0, "ContributionID": 707753, "EditedText": "The SNP spent all summer running away from principles and policies on road user charging. How would it pay for the infrastructure of the Scottish transport network, given that it would not increase the fuel duty escalator, would not charge on roads and would leave city centre congestion to local authorities? Where is the SNP's environmental and financial commitment to this Parliament's responsibility to produce an integrated transport policy?", "EditedTextHTML": "The SNP spent all summer running away from principles and policies on road user charging. How would it pay for the infrastructure of the Scottish transport network, given that it would not increase the fuel duty escalator, would not charge on roads and would leave city centre congestion to local authorities? Where is the SNP's environmental and financial commitment to this Parliament's responsibility to produce an integrated transport policy?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C707757", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 449.0, "ContributionID": 707757, "EditedText": "Address your remarks through the chair, please, and wind up.", "EditedTextHTML": "Address your remarks through the chair, please, and wind up.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2223E203P342C707762", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scott, Tavish", "ID": 2223, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Shetland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tavish Scott", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tavish Scott: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 460.0, "ContributionID": 707762, "EditedText": "Is David McLetchie aware that the Liberal Democrat members of the Westminster Parliament voted against the fuel tax escalator at every opportunity when it came up as a budget measure? Their principal argument was that it would harm rural areas unless compensating measures were introduced. That is the position, and David McLetchie should try to get it right.", "EditedTextHTML": "Is David McLetchie aware that the Liberal Democrat members of the Westminster Parliament voted against the fuel tax escalator at every opportunity when it came up as a budget measure? Their principal argument was that it would harm rural areas unless compensating measures were introduced. That is the position, and David McLetchie should try to get it right.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C707763", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 462.0, "ContributionID": 707763, "EditedText": "I accept that that is the Liberal Democrats' voting record, but their policy is to favour energy and carbon taxes that would have a far more severe impact than the fuel escalator. That is the Liberal Democrats' national policy and Tavish Scott is saddled with it. There is no point in trying to write it off in this chamber by casting a few votes against an alternative tax policy. The whole Government transport policy is built on a lie. Over the lifetime of this Parliament, Labour's motoring taxes will add an extra £9 billion to the motorists' tax bill in the United Kingdom.", "EditedTextHTML": "I accept that that is the Liberal Democrats' voting record, but their policy is to favour energy and carbon taxes that would have a far more severe impact than the fuel escalator. That is the Liberal Democrats' national policy and Tavish Scott is saddled with it. There is no point in trying to write it off in this chamber by casting a few votes against an alternative tax policy.

The whole Government transport policy is built on a lie. Over the lifetime of this Parliament, Labour's motoring taxes will add an extra £9 billion to the motorists' tax bill in the United Kingdom.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1931E120P189C707764", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Muldoon, Bristow", "ID": 1931, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Livingston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bristow Muldoon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bristow Muldoon (Livingston) (Lab) rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 464.0, "ContributionID": 707764, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C707765", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 466.0, "ContributionID": 707765, "EditedText": "I will give way after I have had a chance to develop this point. The three budgets so far have added more than £150 a year to the fuel tax bill of every driver in Britain. However, despite those extra taxes, the Centre for Economics and Business Research estimates that the increases will result in reductions of less than 0.5 per cent in car usage and carbon dioxide emissions. Those taxes have nothing to do with helping the environment. They are Labour stealth taxes to raise more money for the chancellor's election war chest. It is not as if the extra money that is raised through taxes from motorists and other road users goes towards improving the transport system.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will give way after I have had a chance to develop this point.

The three budgets so far have added more than £150 a year to the fuel tax bill of every driver in Britain. However, despite those extra taxes, the Centre for Economics and Business Research estimates that the increases will result in reductions of less than 0.5 per cent in car usage and carbon dioxide emissions. Those taxes have nothing to do with helping the environment. They are Labour stealth taxes to raise more money for the chancellor's election war chest.

It is not as if the extra money that is raised through taxes from motorists and other road users goes towards improving the transport system.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1931E120P189C707768", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Muldoon, Bristow", "ID": 1931, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Livingston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bristow Muldoon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bristow Muldoon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 472.0, "ContributionID": 707768, "EditedText": "Mr McLetchie has been critical of the fuel price escalator and of our proposals for road charging, yet he wishes to spend more on roads. Can he detail which public services he would cut or which taxes he would raise to pay the bill?", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr McLetchie has been critical of the fuel price escalator and of our proposals for road charging, yet he wishes to spend more on roads. Can he detail which public services he would cut or which taxes he would raise to pay the bill?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5765087+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C707786", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 509.0, "ContributionID": 707786, "EditedText": "I am sure that the minister will take your point.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sure that the minister will take your point.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5921342+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1865E219P509C707814", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26804, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 566.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26805, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "QuestionHeading": "Scottish Joint Negotiating Committee", "QuestionHeadingID": 26807, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 575.0, "DisplayOrder": 575.0, "ID": 26807, "ParentID": 26805 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "White, Sandra", "ID": 1865, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sandra White", "SpeakerDisplayName": "2. Ms Sandra White (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 576.0, "ContributionID": 707814, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive, if it decides to abolish the Scottish joint negotiating committee, what mechanism it intends to use to achieve the abolition. (S1O-306)", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive, if it decides to abolish the Scottish joint negotiating committee, what mechanism it intends to use to achieve the abolition. (S1O-306)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5921342+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C707815", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26804, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 566.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26805, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "QuestionHeading": "Scottish Joint Negotiating Committee", "QuestionHeadingID": 26807, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 575.0, "DisplayOrder": 575.0, "ID": 26807, "ParentID": 26805 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Children and Education (Mr Sam Galbraith): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 578.0, "ContributionID": 707815, "EditedText": "Abolition of the Scottish joint negotiating committee would require repeal of the relevant sections of the Education (Scotland) Act 1980 as amended.", "EditedTextHTML": "Abolition of the Scottish joint negotiating committee would require repeal of the relevant sections of the Education (Scotland) Act 1980 as amended.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5921342+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C707790", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26802, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 513.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 513.0, "ID": 26802, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 519.0, "ContributionID": 707790, "EditedText": "There is no amendment to the motion, nor any indication that anyone wishes to speak on it. The question is, that motion S1M-152, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "There is no amendment to the motion, nor any indication that anyone wishes to speak on it.

The question is, that motion S1M-152, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5921342+00:00" }, { "ID": "C707791", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26802, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 513.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 513.0, "ID": 26802, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 521.0, "ContributionID": 707791, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5921342+00:00" }, { "ID": "C707792", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26802, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 513.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 513.0, "ID": 26802, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 522.0, "ContributionID": 707792, "EditedText": "Question, That the meeting be now adjourned until 2.10 pm today, put and agreed to.—Mr McCabe.", "EditedTextHTML": "Question, That the meeting be now adjourned until 2.10 pm today, put and agreed to.—[Mr McCabe.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5921342+00:00" }, { "ID": "C707793", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26802, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 513.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 513.0, "ID": 26802, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 523.0, "ContributionID": 707793, "EditedText": "Meeting adjourned at 12:26.", "EditedTextHTML": "Meeting adjourned at 12:26.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5921342+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2056E57P84C707796", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Continental Tyres", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26803, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 526.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 526.0, "ID": 26803, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James", "ID": 2056, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "James Douglas-Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Lord James Douglas-Hamilton (Lothians) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 529.0, "ContributionID": 707796, "EditedText": "Motion S1M-158 arises from a meeting yesterday that MSPs had with employees of Continental Tyres. That meeting was attended by Mary Mulligan, Pauline McNeill and Bristow Muldoon from the Scottish Labour party; by Margo MacDonald, Fiona Hyslop and Lloyd Quinan from the Scottish National party; by Nick Johnston and me from the Scottish Conservative and Unionist party; by Tommy Sheridan from the Scottish Socialist party; and by Robin Harper from the Green party. Apologies were received from Margaret Smith. As we can see, there was cross- party representation at the meeting. The employees made it clear to us that they would press for the best redundancy package available. They pointed out that they have worked flat out; that they have had to work more hours for the same pay; that their rates of pay have been reduced; and that they had forgone their annual pay rise. Broadly speaking, there is a shortfall of 40 per cent between the offer to the Scottish work force of 800 employees and the offer that was given a few years earlier to the Irish work force at Semperit. I submit that to offer the Scottish work force 40 per cent less than comparable Irish employees is neither generous nor reasonable. In the past six months, Continental has recorded massive profits that represent a 30 per cent increase on the previous record year, so the company is in a position to give equivalent treatment to the Scottish employees. Tomorrow, Dr Holzbach, who is representing the company, will visit the factory for last-minute negotiations on the closure package. In such circumstances, it is reasonable for the Parliament to be able to express a view. Mr Henry McLeish has lodged an amendment to my motion. recommend that the Parliament accepts the amendment because it urges the company—as Mr McLeish has—to reach a \"fair and equitable settlement\". I interpret the phrase \"fair and equitable\" to mean parity of treatment, broadly speaking. I am not interested in this or that detail—a 40 per cent differential is far too great.Mr McLeish also makes it clear in the amendment that he will meet Dr Holzbach tomorrow. If his amendment to the motion is passed, he will be able to present Dr Holzbach with the Parliament's findings, which I hope will provide better redundancy terms for the employees of Continental. I move,That the Parliament calls upon the Scottish Executive to take up with the Continental Tyre Company the need to give their Scottish employees parity of treatment by offering them an equivalent package to that offered to and received by their former employees in Semperit in Ireland, in view of the impending visit on Friday to Newbridge of Dr Holzbach, senior executive member of the Continental Tyre Company.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion S1M-158 arises from a meeting yesterday that MSPs had with employees of Continental Tyres. That meeting was attended by Mary Mulligan, Pauline McNeill and Bristow Muldoon from the Scottish Labour party; by Margo MacDonald, Fiona Hyslop and Lloyd Quinan from the Scottish National party; by Nick Johnston and me from the Scottish Conservative and Unionist party; by Tommy Sheridan from the Scottish Socialist party; and by Robin Harper from the Green party. Apologies were received from Margaret Smith. As we can see, there was cross- party representation at the meeting.

The employees made it clear to us that they would press for the best redundancy package available. They pointed out that they have worked flat out; that they have had to work more hours for the same pay; that their rates of pay have been reduced; and that they had forgone their annual pay rise. Broadly speaking, there is a shortfall of 40 per cent between the offer to the Scottish work force of 800 employees and the offer that was given a few years earlier to the Irish work force at Semperit.

I submit that to offer the Scottish work force 40 per cent less than comparable Irish employees is neither generous nor reasonable. In the past six months, Continental has recorded massive profits that represent a 30 per cent increase on the previous record year, so the company is in a position to give equivalent treatment to the Scottish employees.

Tomorrow, Dr Holzbach, who is representing the company, will visit the factory for last-minute negotiations on the closure package. In such circumstances, it is reasonable for the Parliament to be able to express a view. Mr Henry McLeish has lodged an amendment to my motion. recommend that the Parliament accepts the amendment because it urges the company—as Mr McLeish has—to reach a \"fair and equitable settlement\". I interpret the phrase \"fair and equitable\" to mean parity of treatment, broadly speaking. I am not interested in this or that

detail—a 40 per cent differential is far too great.

Mr McLeish also makes it clear in the amendment that he will meet Dr Holzbach tomorrow. If his amendment to the motion is passed, he will be able to present Dr Holzbach with the Parliament's findings, which I hope will provide better redundancy terms for the employees of Continental.

I move,

That the Parliament calls upon the Scottish Executive to take up with the Continental Tyre Company the need to give their Scottish employees parity of treatment by offering them an equivalent package to that offered to and received by their former employees in Semperit in Ireland, in view of the impending visit on Friday to Newbridge of Dr Holzbach, senior executive member of the Continental Tyre Company.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5921342+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C707798", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Continental Tyres", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26803, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 526.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 526.0, "ID": 26803, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning (Henry McLeish): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 533.0, "ContributionID": 707798, "EditedText": "I move amendment S1M-158.1, to leave out \"calls\" to end and insert \"notes that any financial settlement for workers at the Continental Tyre Company is a matter for negotiation between their Trade Union representatives and the company; notes that the Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning has urged the company to reach a fair and equitable settlement; notes that negotiations are in progress; hopes that they will reach a quick and positive outcome which takes account of all the relevant circumstances; and notes that the Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning will bring this motion to the attention of the Company when he meets them on Friday 17 September.\"", "EditedTextHTML": "I move amendment S1M-158.1, to leave out \"calls\" to end and insert

\"notes that any financial settlement for workers at the Continental Tyre Company is a matter for negotiation between their Trade Union representatives and the company; notes that the Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning has urged the company to reach a fair and equitable settlement; notes that negotiations are in progress; hopes that they will reach a quick and positive outcome which takes account of all the relevant circumstances; and notes that the Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning will bring this motion to the attention of the Company when he meets them on Friday 17 September.\"

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5921342+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C707799", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Continental Tyres", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26803, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 526.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 526.0, "ID": 26803, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 535.0, "ContributionID": 707799, "EditedText": "I will call Mr McLeish to wind up the debate at 14:25.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will call Mr McLeish to wind up the debate at 14:25.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5921342+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1826E199P351C707800", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Continental Tyres", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26803, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 526.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 526.0, "ID": 26803, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Smith, Margaret", "ID": 1826, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Smith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Margaret Smith (Edinburgh West) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 538.0, "ContributionID": 707800, "EditedText": "I welcome the opportunity to debate Continental's decision to close the Newbridge tyre operation in my constituency at a cost of 774 jobs. Over the past few months, I have met representatives of the work force on many occasions and, having spoken to them again today, I know that they, too, welcome the debate and the support that they have received from MSPs on all sides of the Parliament. Members from all political parties have signalled their support for Continental workers, which sends a strong message to Continental that the Parliament and the parties in it are determined to ensure that Continental workers are treated fairly. I will take that message into the meeting that I—as the local MSP—will have tomorrow with Dr Holzbach, one of Continental's senior German management. Continental has taken a commercial decision to move out of Scotland into areas such as eastern Europe, where operating costs are cheaper. The company has turned its back on workers who have jumped through hoops for it and who have accepted redundancies, new shift patterns and loss of pay over the past year to save their jobs. Continental has turned its back on a skilled work force that produces a quality product. It has turned its back on a work force that was in the process of turning losses of £8 million last year into a profit this year. Producing 14,000 tyres each day, the Continental plant at Newbridge would this year have finished in the black. That turnaround would have been due to the work force's efforts. At the time of the ministerial statement, I asked Mr McLeish what action the Executive was taking to make the point to the company that the work force should be dealt with fairly. I believe that his response on that occasion, the conversation that we have had today and the amendment that the Executive has lodged, give a clear signal that the minister and his deputy have been making representations in that regard and that Mr McLeish will continue to do so tomorrow. Continental has made much of the worsening worldwide tyre market and the strong pound. Members should be in no doubt that its decision to abandon Newbridge and its Scottish work force is because it can make greater profits by moving from the diverse, small, skilled plant at Newbridge to large purpose-built plants in eastern Europe or Portugal, where EU grants are the sweetest. A visit to Continental's website tells us about the company's profits as of 12 August 1999: \"Contrary to the trend in the tyre industry the Continental Corporation is reporting substantial gains in sales and earnings. The first half of 1999 sales leaped by 54 per cent and their earnings jumped 38 per cent.\" Passenger tyre sales are up 10 per cent; commercial vehicle tyre sales are up 22 per cent; and so it goes on. Meanwhile, Continental is offering its Scottish workers less of a settlement than was offered to Irish employees in 1996. There is no justification for that. The Newbridge workers should at least have parity with the Irish work force. An extension of what is on offer to the Scots to bring them into line would cost between £4 million and £5 million. Given the commitment shown by the workers and the level of profit that Continental continues to make, I believe that it should be prepared to pay that price.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the opportunity to debate Continental's decision to close the Newbridge tyre operation in my constituency at a cost of 774 jobs. Over the past few months, I have met representatives of the work force on many occasions and, having spoken to them again today, I know that they, too, welcome the debate and the support that they have received from MSPs on all sides of the Parliament.

Members from all political parties have signalled their support for Continental workers, which sends a strong message to Continental that the Parliament and the parties in it are determined to ensure that Continental workers are treated fairly. I will take that message into the meeting that I—as the local MSP—will have tomorrow with Dr Holzbach, one of Continental's senior German management.

Continental has taken a commercial decision to move out of Scotland into areas such as eastern Europe, where operating costs are cheaper. The company has turned its back on workers who have jumped through hoops for it and who have accepted redundancies, new shift patterns and loss of pay over the past year to save their jobs.

Continental has turned its back on a skilled work force that produces a quality product. It has turned its back on a work force that was in the process of turning losses of £8 million last year into a profit this year. Producing 14,000 tyres each day, the Continental plant at Newbridge would this year have finished in the black. That turnaround would have been due to the work force's efforts.

At the time of the ministerial statement, I asked Mr McLeish what action the Executive was taking to make the point to the company that the work force should be dealt with fairly. I believe that his response on that occasion, the conversation that we have had today and the amendment that the Executive has lodged, give a clear signal that the minister and his deputy have been making representations in that regard and that Mr McLeish will continue to do so tomorrow.

Continental has made much of the worsening worldwide tyre market and the strong pound. Members should be in no doubt that its decision to abandon Newbridge and its Scottish work force is because it can make greater profits by moving from the diverse, small, skilled plant at Newbridge to large purpose-built plants in eastern Europe or Portugal, where EU grants are the sweetest. A visit to Continental's website tells us about the company's profits as of 12 August 1999:

\"Contrary to the trend in the tyre industry the Continental Corporation is reporting substantial gains in sales and earnings. The first half of 1999 sales leaped by 54 per cent and their earnings jumped 38 per cent.\"

Passenger tyre sales are up 10 per cent; commercial vehicle tyre sales are up 22 per cent; and so it goes on.

Meanwhile, Continental is offering its Scottish workers less of a settlement than was offered to Irish employees in 1996. There is no justification for that. The Newbridge workers should at least have parity with the Irish work force. An extension of what is on offer to the Scots to bring them into line would cost between £4 million and £5 million. Given the commitment shown by the workers and the level of profit that Continental continues to make, I believe that it should be prepared to pay that price.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5921342+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C707801", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Continental Tyres", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26803, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 526.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 526.0, "ID": 26803, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 540.0, "ContributionID": 707801, "EditedText": "Wind up now, please.", "EditedTextHTML": "Wind up now, please.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5921342+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1837E108P186C707803", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Continental Tyres", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26803, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 526.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 526.0, "ID": 26803, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mulligan, Mary", "ID": 1837, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Linlithgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Mulligan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Mary Mulligan (Linlithgow) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 545.0, "ContributionID": 707803, "EditedText": "There is no question but that the workers at Continental have done everything in their power to enable them to continue in employment. Unfortunately, they have been unsuccessful. My main concern is to ensure that Continental, which has taken the decision to pull out of Newbridge and leave the people with no jobs, is made to recompense those workers as strongly as possible. I welcome tomorrow's meeting between the Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Dr Holzbach. I am more than certain that the minister will press the claim of the workers and ensure that the deal that they get is the best one possible. I am, therefore, more than happy to support the amendment.", "EditedTextHTML": "There is no question but that the workers at Continental have done everything in their power to enable them to continue in employment. Unfortunately, they have been unsuccessful. My main concern is to ensure that Continental, which has taken the decision to pull out of Newbridge and leave the people with no jobs, is made to recompense those workers as strongly as possible.

I welcome tomorrow's meeting between the Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Dr Holzbach. I am more than certain that the minister will press the claim of the workers and ensure that the deal that they get is the best one possible. I am, therefore, more than happy to support the amendment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5921342+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1828E200P487C707806", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Continental Tyres", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26803, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 526.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 526.0, "ID": 26803, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacDonald, Margo", "ID": 1828, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margo MacDonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Margo MacDonald (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 554.0, "ContributionID": 707806, "EditedText": "I add my congratulations to the minister on addressing this issue just in time. I sincerely hope that he will tell the gentleman who will arrive from Germany exactly what we feel about the decisions that have been made. I accept that the closure is a done deal, but I will take members forward, if I may. As a member of the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee, along with Nick, I am concerned that although the training programme is perhaps better than we first feared, it might have been put in place a bit earlier. Margaret Smith referred to the number of times she has spoken with the management over a considerable period of time. Why, then, was the local enterprise company not aware that there was a possibility that the employment prospects at Newbridge would change? If it had been aware of that, we would not have had 300 blokes waiting to go on a forklift truck driving course knowing that the likelihood of still being employed at Newbridge while the course was open to them was very low indeed. I regret the fact that the jobs are to be lost and I regret the circumstances in which that will happen. I sincerely hope that the minister will get the money that the blokes are due. However, I also hope that we will learn something from this and that the rapid response unit, which the minister promised to the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee, will be put into effect pronto.", "EditedTextHTML": "I add my congratulations to the minister on addressing this issue just in time. I sincerely hope that he will tell the gentleman who will arrive from Germany exactly what we feel about the decisions that have been made.

I accept that the closure is a done deal, but I will take members forward, if I may. As a member of the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee, along with Nick, I am concerned that although the training programme is perhaps better than we first feared, it might have been put in place a bit earlier. Margaret Smith referred to the number of times she has spoken with the management over a considerable period of time. Why, then, was the local enterprise company not aware that there was a possibility that the employment prospects at Newbridge would change? If it had been aware of that, we would not have had 300 blokes waiting to go on a forklift truck driving course knowing that the likelihood of still being employed at Newbridge while the course was open to them was very low indeed.

I regret the fact that the jobs are to be lost and I regret the circumstances in which that will happen. I sincerely hope that the minister will get the money that the blokes are due. However, I also hope that we will learn something from this and that the rapid response unit, which the minister promised to the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee, will be put into effect pronto.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5921342+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C707818", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26804, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 566.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26805, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "QuestionHeading": "Finance", "QuestionHeadingID": 26808, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 584.0, "DisplayOrder": 584.0, "ID": 26808, "ParentID": 26805 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "3. Alex Neil (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 585.0, "ContributionID": 707818, "EditedText": "I ask the Scottish Executive to join me in welcoming the leader of Plaid Cymru, Dafydd Wigley, who is with us today. Applause. To ask the Scottish Executivewhether it intends making representations to Her Majesty's Government requesting an increase in the Scottish block. (S1O-302)", "EditedTextHTML": "I ask the Scottish Executive to join me in welcoming the leader of Plaid Cymru, Dafydd Wigley, who is with us today. [Applause.] To ask the Scottish Executivewhether it intends making representations to Her Majesty's Government requesting an increase in the Scottish block. (S1O-302)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5921342+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C707820", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26804, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 566.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26805, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "QuestionHeading": "Finance", "QuestionHeadingID": 26808, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 584.0, "DisplayOrder": 584.0, "ID": 26808, "ParentID": 26805 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 589.0, "ContributionID": 707820, "EditedText": "Is the minister aware of the independent report that was prepared by the London-based Centre for Economics and Business Research and published a couple of weeks ago, which shows that Scotland is a net contributor to the UK Treasury? We are paying more taxes in than we are getting money back out. Does he not agree that, rather than subsidising the UK Treasury, it would be far better for Scotland to get its own money back in order to use it to settle the teachers' dispute and to abolish tuition fees without robbing any other budget in Scotland?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is the minister aware of the independent report that was prepared by the London-based Centre for Economics and Business Research and published a couple of weeks ago, which shows that Scotland is a net contributor to the UK Treasury? We are paying more taxes in than we are getting money back out. Does he not agree that, rather than subsidising the UK Treasury, it would be far better for Scotland to get its own money back in order to use it to settle the teachers' dispute and to abolish tuition fees without robbing any other budget in Scotland?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5921342+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2207E94P262C707822", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26804, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 566.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26805, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "QuestionHeading": "Student Awards Agency", "QuestionHeadingID": 26809, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 593.0, "DisplayOrder": 593.0, "ID": 26809, "ParentID": 26805 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Barrie, Scott", "ID": 2207, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dunfermline West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Scott Barrie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "4. Scott Barrie (Dunfermline West) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 594.0, "ContributionID": 707822, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive how many miscalculations have occurred in awards made by the Student Awards Agency for Scotland in each of the last four academic sessions. (S1O-339) The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning (Nicol Stephen): Many awards need to be recalculated every year—for example, because of changes in students' or parents' circumstances or because of errors made on application forms. Recalculations may also be required on occasion because of miscalculations—otherwise known as errors—that may have been made by agency staff. Quality assurance checks are in place to keep those to a minimum. The agency systems do not, however, separately identify the reasons for which recalculations are made.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive how many miscalculations have occurred in awards made by the Student Awards Agency for Scotland in each of the last four academic sessions. (S1O-339) The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning (Nicol Stephen): Many awards need to be recalculated every year—for example, because of changes in students' or parents' circumstances or because of errors made on application forms. Recalculations may also be required on occasion because of miscalculations—otherwise known as errors—that may have been made by agency staff. Quality assurance checks are in place to keep those to a minimum. The agency systems do not, however, separately identify the reasons for which recalculations are made.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5921342+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1854E38P164C707829", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26804, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 566.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26805, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "QuestionHeading": "Scottish University for Industry", "QuestionHeadingID": 26811, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 609.0, "DisplayOrder": 609.0, "ID": 26811, "ParentID": 26805 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Godman, Trish", "ID": 1854, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Renfrewshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Trish Godman", "SpeakerDisplayName": "7. Trish Godman (West Renfrewshire) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 610.0, "ContributionID": 707829, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will be possible to launch the Scottish university for industry in autumn 2000 as planned, given that no company has yet been set up and no chief executive or directors have been appointed. (S1O329)", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will be possible to launch the Scottish university for industry in autumn 2000 as planned, given that no company has yet been set up and no chief executive or directors have been appointed. (S1O329)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5921342+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1854E38P164C707831", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26804, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 566.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26805, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "QuestionHeading": "Scottish University for Industry", "QuestionHeadingID": 26811, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 609.0, "DisplayOrder": 609.0, "ID": 26811, "ParentID": 26805 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Godman, Trish", "ID": 1854, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Renfrewshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Trish Godman", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Trish Godman: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 614.0, "ContributionID": 707831, "EditedText": "I thank the minister for his answer. Will this university for industry be distinctive from the universities for industry in England, Wales and Northern Ireland? If so, will it be possible to have a common service throughout the United Kingdom?", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the minister for his answer. Will this university for industry be distinctive from the universities for industry in England, Wales and Northern Ireland? If so, will it be possible to have a common service throughout the United Kingdom?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5921342+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C707832", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26804, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 566.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26805, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "QuestionHeading": "Scottish University for Industry", "QuestionHeadingID": 26811, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 609.0, "DisplayOrder": 609.0, "ID": 26811, "ParentID": 26805 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 616.0, "ContributionID": 707832, "EditedText": "It will be distinctive. We are keen that the UfI in Scotland should reflect the considerations and the aspirations of the Scottish higher and further education community. We also want to ensure—because we are talking about lifelong learning and distance learning—that we have UK coverage and interchangeability. That said, this is a marvellous concept that is being developed. We will get it on target for the autumn of 2000. It will provide a brokerage system through which people and businesses that need training can be linked with those who provide it. It is breaking new ground, and I assure Trish Godman that we intend to stick to the timetable and ensure that the project is on target. It will be of enormous benefit to the rest of Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "It will be distinctive. We are keen that the UfI in Scotland should reflect the considerations and the aspirations of the Scottish higher and further education community. We also want to ensure—because we are talking about lifelong learning and distance learning—that we have UK coverage and interchangeability. That said, this is a marvellous concept that is being developed. We will get it on target for the autumn of 2000. It will provide a brokerage system through which people and businesses that need training can be linked with those who provide it. It is breaking new ground, and I assure Trish Godman that we intend to stick to the timetable and ensure that the project is on target. It will be of enormous benefit to the rest of Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5921342+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C707834", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26804, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 566.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26805, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "QuestionHeading": "Ministerial Meetings", "QuestionHeadingID": 26812, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 618.0, "DisplayOrder": 618.0, "ID": 26812, "ParentID": 26805 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 621.0, "ContributionID": 707834, "EditedText": "Oh dear, can you make it short?", "EditedTextHTML": "Oh dear, can you make it short?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5921342+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C707835", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26804, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 566.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26805, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "QuestionHeading": "Ministerial Meetings", "QuestionHeadingID": 26812, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 618.0, "DisplayOrder": 618.0, "ID": 26812, "ParentID": 26805 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 623.0, "ContributionID": 707835, "EditedText": "I never cut off any of my colleagues. Sam Galbraith, Jack McConnell, Susan Deacon, Ross Finnie and Colin Boyd have all met Cabinet members in the Welsh Assembly since 1 July. I talk frequently to Mr Alun Michael on the telephone.", "EditedTextHTML": "I never cut off any of my colleagues. Sam Galbraith, Jack McConnell, Susan Deacon, Ross Finnie and Colin Boyd have all met Cabinet members in the Welsh Assembly since 1 July. I talk frequently to Mr Alun Michael on the telephone.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5921342+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C707836", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26804, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 566.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26805, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "QuestionHeading": "Ministerial Meetings", "QuestionHeadingID": 26812, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 618.0, "DisplayOrder": 618.0, "ID": 26812, "ParentID": 26805 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 625.0, "ContributionID": 707836, "EditedText": "That was not very long after all.", "EditedTextHTML": "That was not very long after all.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5921342+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C707839", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26804, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 566.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26805, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "QuestionHeading": "Inverness College", "QuestionHeadingID": 26813, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 631.0, "DisplayOrder": 631.0, "ID": 26813, "ParentID": 26805 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "10. Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 632.0, "ContributionID": 707839, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive how it intends to assist Inverness College, which faces a deficit of £4 million, in providing high-quality further and higher education. (S1O-331) The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning (Henry McLeish): Responsibility for the financial health and funding of all Scotland's further education colleges has, since 1 July, been a matter for the Scottish Further Education Funding Council. Earlier this month that college informed the council about the scale of the financial position that it faces. It is engaging with the college to consider as a matter of priority what action is required by the college's board of management to address the situation.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive how it intends to assist Inverness College, which faces a deficit of £4 million, in providing high-quality further and higher education. (S1O-331) The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning (Henry McLeish): Responsibility for the financial health and funding of all Scotland's further education colleges has, since 1 July, been a matter for the Scottish Further Education Funding Council.

Earlier this month that college informed the council about the scale of the financial position that it faces. It is engaging with the college to consider as a matter of priority what action is required by the college's board of management to address the situation.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5921342+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C707840", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26804, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 566.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26805, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "QuestionHeading": "Inverness College", "QuestionHeadingID": 26813, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 631.0, "DisplayOrder": 631.0, "ID": 26813, "ParentID": 26805 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 634.0, "ContributionID": 707840, "EditedText": "Does the minister agree that considering redundancies to reduce costs—as the principal of the college must do—will reduce the number of courses on offer, reduce the number of students and reduce potential income, and will lead to greater deficits in the future?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the minister agree that considering redundancies to reduce costs—as the principal of the college must do—will reduce the number of courses on offer, reduce the number of students and reduce potential income, and will lead to greater deficits in the future?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5921342+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1962E35P56C707847", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26804, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 566.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26805, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "QuestionHeading": "Rail Services", "QuestionHeadingID": 26815, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 649.0, "DisplayOrder": 649.0, "ID": 26815, "ParentID": 26805 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mundell, David", "ID": 1962, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Mundell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "12. David Mundell (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 650.0, "ContributionID": 707847, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what representations it will make to the Strategic Rail Authority regarding the issuing of directions and guidance by it in respect of rail services to or from stations in Scotland, including Lockerbie and Dumfries, where no services to such stations both begin and end in Scotland. (S1O-315)", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what representations it will make to the Strategic Rail Authority regarding the issuing of directions and guidance by it in respect of rail services to or from stations in Scotland, including Lockerbie and Dumfries, where no services to such stations both begin and end in Scotland. (S1O-315)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5921342+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2033E106P139C707853", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26804, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 566.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26805, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "QuestionHeading": "Health Care", "QuestionHeadingID": 26816, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 658.0, "DisplayOrder": 658.0, "ID": 26816, "ParentID": 26805 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gray, Iain", "ID": 2033, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Pentlands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Iain Gray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Iain Gray: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 663.0, "ContributionID": 707853, "EditedText": "Palliative care is an area in which I have a particular interest. There are two hospices in my constituency, and I will make an address tomorrow for Marie Curie Cancer Care at its annual review. The situation is clear: where diagnosis reveals that a person is terminally ill and requires specialist palliative care, it falls to the NHS to provide that care and meet its costs. Guidance on further care packages asks local authorities to treat terminally ill people with sensitivity and, where possible, to exempt the clients from any charge.", "EditedTextHTML": "Palliative care is an area in which I have a particular interest. There are two hospices in my constituency, and I will make an address tomorrow for Marie Curie Cancer Care at its annual review.

The situation is clear: where diagnosis reveals that a person is terminally ill and requires specialist palliative care, it falls to the NHS to provide that care and meet its costs. Guidance on further care packages asks local authorities to treat terminally ill people with sensitivity and, where possible, to exempt the clients from any charge.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5921342+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2223E203P342C707855", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26804, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 566.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26805, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "QuestionHeading": "Tourism", "QuestionHeadingID": 26817, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 665.0, "DisplayOrder": 665.0, "ID": 26817, "ParentID": 26805 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scott, Tavish", "ID": 2223, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Shetland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tavish Scott", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tavish Scott: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 668.0, "ContributionID": 707855, "EditedText": "Can the minister confirm that the tendering requirements for the new vessels of the northern isles ferry service, a vital service for tourists coming to Shetland, will specify that two passenger vessels must be provided to maintain a regular overnight service between Lerwick and Aberdeen?", "EditedTextHTML": "Can the minister confirm that the tendering requirements for the new vessels of the northern isles ferry service, a vital service for tourists coming to Shetland, will specify that two passenger vessels must be provided to maintain a regular overnight service between Lerwick and Aberdeen?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5921342+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1889E118P162C707856", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26804, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 566.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26805, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "QuestionHeading": "Tourism", "QuestionHeadingID": 26817, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 665.0, "DisplayOrder": 665.0, "ID": 26817, "ParentID": 26805 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morrison, Mr Alasdair", "ID": 1889, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Western Isles" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morrison", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Morrison: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 670.0, "ContributionID": 707856, "EditedText": "I am aware of the importance of this issue. Details are being finalised, and my colleagues will soon be consulting on the terms of the draft service specification.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am aware of the importance of this issue. Details are being finalised, and my colleagues will soon be consulting on the terms of the draft service specification.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5921342+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1950E155P451C707859", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26804, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 566.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26805, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "QuestionHeading": "Education Service", "QuestionHeadingID": 26818, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 672.0, "DisplayOrder": 672.0, "ID": 26818, "ParentID": 26805 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Campbell, Colin", "ID": 1950, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Colin Campbell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Colin Campbell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 677.0, "ContributionID": 707859, "EditedText": "Would the minister agree that he has not quite answered the question? His response has destroyed my supplementary in some ways. I want to ask—I will ad lib—whether he is convinced that all children requiring records of needs are not being deprived of them in some areas because of budgetary considerations.", "EditedTextHTML": "Would the minister agree that he has not quite answered the question? His response has destroyed my supplementary in some ways.

I want to ask—I will ad lib—whether he is convinced that all children requiring records of needs are not being deprived of them in some areas because of budgetary considerations.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5921342+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2167E79P155C707867", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26804, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 566.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26805, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "QuestionHeading": "St Mary's Episcopal Primary School, Dunblane", "QuestionHeadingID": 26819, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 681.0, "DisplayOrder": 681.0, "ID": 26819, "ParentID": 26805 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Peacock, Peter", "ID": 2167, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Peter Peacock", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Peter Peacock: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 694.0, "ContributionID": 707867, "EditedText": "There are no plans to offer St Mary's that status.", "EditedTextHTML": "There are no plans to offer St Mary's that status.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6077605+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1781E188P474C707873", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26804, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 566.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26805, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "QuestionHeading": "Stracathro Hospital", "QuestionHeadingID": 26821, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 707.0, "DisplayOrder": 707.0, "ID": 26821, "ParentID": 26805 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McGugan, Irene", "ID": 1781, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Irene McGugan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "18. Irene McGugan (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 708.0, "ContributionID": 707873, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what assurance can be given that the proposed closure of wards 15 and 6 at Stracathro hospital, Brechin, will not prejudice the outcome of the acute services review currently being undertaken by Tayside Health Board. (S1O-309) The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): The Tayside University Hospitals NHS Trust has assured me that its proposals will improve service delivery while maintaining appropriate ward occupancy levels. Those changes will not result in a reduction of the services that are currently provided at Stracathro hospital.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what assurance can be given that the proposed closure of wards 15 and 6 at Stracathro hospital, Brechin, will not prejudice the outcome of the acute services review currently being undertaken by Tayside Health Board. (S1O-309) The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): The Tayside University Hospitals NHS Trust has assured me that its proposals will improve service delivery while maintaining appropriate ward occupancy levels. Those changes will not result in a reduction of the services that are currently provided at Stracathro hospital.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C707876", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26804, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 566.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26805, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "QuestionHeading": "“Making it work together”", "QuestionHeadingID": 26822, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 714.0, "DisplayOrder": 714.0, "ID": 26822, "ParentID": 26805 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "19. Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 715.0, "ContributionID": 707876, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executivewhether it will provide a breakdown of the total cost of the launch of \"Making it work together: A programme for government\" on 6 September 1999. (S1O-314) The Minister for Finance (Mr Jack McConnell): The total cost of the launch of \"Making it work together\" is estimated at around £4,300.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executivewhether it will provide a breakdown of the total cost of the launch of \"Making it work together: A programme for government\" on 6 September 1999. (S1O-314) The Minister for Finance (Mr Jack McConnell): The total cost of the launch of \"Making it work together\" is estimated at around £4,300.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C707877", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26804, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 566.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26805, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "QuestionHeading": "“Making it work together”", "QuestionHeadingID": 26822, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 714.0, "DisplayOrder": 714.0, "ID": 26822, "ParentID": 26805 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 717.0, "ContributionID": 707877, "EditedText": "I thank the minister for his answer. Given the perception that the Parliament should be visible around the country, what provisions have been made for the Parliament's committees to hold meetings, as required, in every town and village throughout Scotland?", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the minister for his answer. Given the perception that the Parliament should be visible around the country, what provisions have been made for the Parliament's committees to hold meetings, as required, in every town and village throughout Scotland?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C707884", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26804, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 566.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26805, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "QuestionHeading": "Local Government Finance", "QuestionHeadingID": 26823, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 725.0, "DisplayOrder": 725.0, "ID": 26823, "ParentID": 26805 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 732.0, "ContributionID": 707884, "EditedText": "Mr McLeish and I are well aware of the seriousness of the matter and we have had a number of recent meetings about it. I hope that, as he realises the importance of the matter, Mr Gibson will address some of his remarks to Mr Bruce Crawford, who used to run—and is, I believe, still a member of—one of those 10 councils.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr McLeish and I are well aware of the seriousness of the matter and we have had a number of recent meetings about it. I hope that, as he realises the importance of the matter, Mr Gibson will address some of his remarks to Mr Bruce Crawford, who used to run—and is, I believe, still a member of—one of those 10 councils.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C707890", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26804, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 566.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26805, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "QuestionHeading": "People's Juries", "QuestionHeadingID": 26825, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 741.0, "DisplayOrder": 741.0, "ID": 26825, "ParentID": 26805 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 746.0, "ContributionID": 707890, "EditedText": "Far from it. My answer has just revealed that we are providing four times as much money to community representatives and social inclusion partnerships than we are providing to citizens' juries. I hope, therefore, that Shona Robison is happy with how we are proceeding.", "EditedTextHTML": "Far from it. My answer has just revealed that we are providing four times as much money to community representatives and social inclusion partnerships than we are providing to citizens' juries. I hope, therefore, that Shona Robison is happy with how we are proceeding.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C707891", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26826, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 748.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26827, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 749.0, "QuestionHeading": "Higher Education", "QuestionHeadingID": 26828, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 750.0, "DisplayOrder": 750.0, "ID": 26828, "ParentID": 26827 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "1. Mr Alex Salmond (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 751.0, "ContributionID": 707891, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what are the details of its higher education policy. (S1O-318) The First Minister (Donald Dewar): We are committed to the highest standards in further and higher education on the principle that anyone who can benefit from it should have the opportunity to do so. As Alex Salmond will remember, if we take the comprehensive spending review period, the additional funds for higher education compared with the figure that we inherited amount to £250 million. He will have read the programme for government document, and will therefore know that that sets out our priorities on how to deliver our policies.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what are the details of its higher education policy. (S1O-318) The First Minister (Donald Dewar): We are committed to the highest standards in further and higher education on the principle that anyone who can benefit from it should have the opportunity to do so. As Alex Salmond will remember, if we take the comprehensive spending review period, the additional funds for higher education compared with the figure that we inherited amount to £250 million. He will have read the programme for government document, and will therefore know that that sets out our priorities on how to deliver our policies.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C707892", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26826, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 748.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26827, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 749.0, "QuestionHeading": "Higher Education", "QuestionHeadingID": 26828, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 750.0, "DisplayOrder": 750.0, "ID": 26828, "ParentID": 26827 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 753.0, "ContributionID": 707892, "EditedText": "Both the First Minister and I benefited from student grants and no tuition fees. Can the First Minister explain the rights of this Parliament and clear up some confusion that has crept in? After a suggestion that a vote against tuition fees would not be binding on the Parliament, an Executive spokesperson, in what was described as a carefully phrased statement, said: \"The Executive would always wish to take into account the views expressed by the Parliament\". It is reassuring to know that our views will be taken into account, but this is a Parliament, so I ask the First Minister: if this Parliament passes by resolution a motion against tuition fees, will it be binding on the Executive, yes or no?", "EditedTextHTML": "Both the First Minister and I benefited from student grants and no tuition fees.

Can the First Minister explain the rights of this Parliament and clear up some confusion that has crept in? After a suggestion that a vote against tuition fees would not be binding on the Parliament, an Executive spokesperson, in what was described as a carefully phrased statement, said:

\"The Executive would always wish to take into account the views expressed by the Parliament\".

It is reassuring to know that our views will be taken into account, but this is a Parliament, so I ask the First Minister: if this Parliament passes by resolution a motion against tuition fees, will it be binding on the Executive, yes or no?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C707895", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26826, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 748.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26827, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 749.0, "QuestionHeading": "Higher Education", "QuestionHeadingID": 26828, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 750.0, "DisplayOrder": 750.0, "ID": 26828, "ParentID": 26827 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 759.0, "ContributionID": 707895, "EditedText": "I do not know the extent to which I can talk on party matters, as I am here to answer questions as a member of the Executive, but if I may be allowed the indulgence, the Labour party is in favour of widening access to higher education and ensuring that we sustain the improvements that we have seen in the past, but which until recently have been undermined by the lack of proper financing. The financing system that is required is the conundrum that the Cubie committee has been invited to consider. Of course, that is the problem that we in the Parliament must address—not just the Executive, but the elected body representing all parts of Scotland. The important fact is that an elected body that is to command trust is one that will be prepared to look and listen and make a considered judgment about the advice and the evidence that come out of the Cubie inquiry.", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not know the extent to which I can talk on party matters, as I am here to answer questions as a member of the Executive, but if I may be allowed the indulgence, the Labour party is in favour of widening access to higher education and ensuring that we sustain the improvements that we have seen in the past, but which until recently have been undermined by the lack of proper financing. The financing system that is required is the conundrum that the Cubie committee has been invited to consider. Of course, that is the problem that we in the Parliament must address—not just the Executive, but the elected body representing all parts of Scotland.

The important fact is that an elected body that is to command trust is one that will be prepared to look and listen and make a considered judgment about the advice and the evidence that come out of the Cubie inquiry.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C707900", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26826, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 748.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26827, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 749.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26829, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 765.0, "DisplayOrder": 765.0, "ID": 26829, "ParentID": 26827 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 770.0, "ContributionID": 707900, "EditedText": "That is a very amusing contribution to the debate. I would like to think that it was meant to be amusing, otherwise Mr McLetchie is being remarkably naive. I read the front page of The Scotsman frequently, often with interest and sometimes with curiosity. We have not advocated a graduate tax. I know of no work that is going on in relation to a graduate tax. Therefore, I know of no substance for the suggestions that Mr McLetchie is putting to me. The findings of the Cubie report and the discussions that follow will be of interest to my colleagues in other parts of the United Kingdom, as they will be of interest to Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is a very amusing contribution to the debate. I would like to think that it was meant to be amusing, otherwise Mr McLetchie is being remarkably naive. I read the front page of The Scotsman frequently, often with interest and sometimes with curiosity.

We have not advocated a graduate tax. I know of no work that is going on in relation to a graduate tax. Therefore, I know of no substance for the suggestions that Mr McLetchie is putting to me. The findings of the Cubie report and the discussions that follow will be of interest to my colleagues in other parts of the United Kingdom, as they will be of interest to Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C707903", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26826, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 748.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26827, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 749.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26829, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 765.0, "DisplayOrder": 765.0, "ID": 26829, "ParentID": 26827 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Murray Tosh (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 776.0, "ContributionID": 707903, "EditedText": "If the Scottish Parliament votes to abolish tuition fees or to introduce another form of funding part or all of the costs of higher education, will the First Minister commit the Executive to introducing a bill to translate that decision into reality?", "EditedTextHTML": "If the Scottish Parliament votes to abolish tuition fees or to introduce another form of funding part or all of the costs of higher education, will the First Minister commit the Executive to introducing a bill to translate that decision into reality?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C707904", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26826, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 748.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26827, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 749.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26829, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 765.0, "DisplayOrder": 765.0, "ID": 26829, "ParentID": 26827 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 778.0, "ContributionID": 707904, "EditedText": "We will have to wait and see what emerges from the Cubie committee report. As I said to Alex Salmond, we are spending considerably more than was planned by the previous Government—£250 million over the three years on higher education, and another £214 million over the same period, against the same comparative base, on further education. Clearly, we are putting our money where our principles are. We are interested in getting the right system for the future. There has been an absolute explosion in the number of people in higher education.", "EditedTextHTML": "We will have to wait and see what emerges from the Cubie committee report. As I said to Alex Salmond, we are spending considerably more than was planned by the previous Government—£250 million over the three years on higher education, and another £214 million over the same period, against the same comparative base, on further education. Clearly, we are putting our money where our principles are.

We are interested in getting the right system for the future. There has been an absolute explosion in the number of people in higher education.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C707908", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26826, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 748.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26827, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 749.0, "QuestionHeading": "Objective 2 Funding", "QuestionHeadingID": 26830, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 784.0, "DisplayOrder": 784.0, "ID": 26830, "ParentID": 26827 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Finance (Mr Jack McConnell): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 787.0, "ContributionID": 707908, "EditedText": "The Scottish Executive is the implementing authority for structural funds in Scotland. We are closely involved in the preparation of the UK proposals to the Commission for objective 2 coverage, as we want to ensure that the coverage is targeted on areas of real need. The Executive has now made detailed recommendations for coverage in Scotland to the UK Government and we will continue to work with UK ministers to achieve the best deal for communities across Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Scottish Executive is the implementing authority for structural funds in Scotland. We are closely involved in the preparation of the UK proposals to the Commission for objective 2 coverage, as we want to ensure that the coverage is targeted on areas of real need. The Executive has now made detailed recommendations for coverage in Scotland to the UK Government and we will continue to work with UK ministers to achieve the best deal for communities across Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C707914", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26826, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 748.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26827, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 749.0, "QuestionHeading": "Objective 2 Funding", "QuestionHeadingID": 26830, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 784.0, "DisplayOrder": 784.0, "ID": 26830, "ParentID": 26827 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 799.0, "ContributionID": 707914, "EditedText": "I am happy to give the same answer. It is important that we do not compromise the negotiations with the European Commission that will have to take place, or expose our hand in detail. On Alasdair Morgan's specific point, I was fortunate enough to be able to announce yesterday more than £1 million in structural fund grants for the Dumfries and Galloway area. That will lead to a significant improvement in the local economy and local communities through improved transport links and transport information.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am happy to give the same answer. It is important that we do not compromise the negotiations with the European Commission that will have to take place, or expose our hand in detail. On Alasdair Morgan's specific point, I was fortunate enough to be able to announce yesterday more than £1 million in structural fund grants for the Dumfries and Galloway area. That will lead to a significant improvement in the local economy and local communities through improved transport links and transport information.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C707915", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26826, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 748.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26827, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 749.0, "QuestionHeading": "Objective 2 Funding", "QuestionHeadingID": 26830, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 784.0, "DisplayOrder": 784.0, "ID": 26830, "ParentID": 26827 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 801.0, "ContributionID": 707915, "EditedText": "That concludes question time. I want to make an obvious point that might not have occurred to members—it is not compulsory to ask a supplementary question.", "EditedTextHTML": "That concludes question time. I want to make an obvious point that might not have occurred to members—it is not compulsory to ask a supplementary question.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1970E66P288C707925", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Water Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26831, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 803.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 803.0, "ID": 26831, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNulty, Des", "ID": 1970, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Clydebank and Milngavie" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Des McNulty", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Des McNulty (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 823.0, "ContributionID": 707925, "EditedText": "I welcome the minister's statement, which I believe will significantly increase the public accountability of the water and sewerage industry. I remind the minister of the success of an earlier example of co-operation between the Labour and Liberal Democrat parties. The Strathclyde water referendum decisively rejected the policies of the previous Conservative Government—policies that would have threatened the continuing operation of the industry in the public sector. I know from the debate earlier today that the Conservative party is suffering from voluntary collective amnesia—", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the minister's statement, which I believe will significantly increase the public accountability of the water and sewerage industry.

I remind the minister of the success of an earlier example of co-operation between the Labour and Liberal Democrat parties. The Strathclyde water referendum decisively rejected the policies of the previous Conservative Government—policies that would have threatened the continuing operation of the industry in the public sector. I know from the debate earlier today that the Conservative party is suffering from voluntary collective amnesia—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1970E66P288C707927", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Water Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26831, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 803.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 803.0, "ID": 26831, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNulty, Des", "ID": 1970, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Clydebank and Milngavie" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Des McNulty", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Des McNulty: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 827.0, "ContributionID": 707927, "EditedText": "It is important to emphasise the commitment to retain the industry in the public sector. Will the minister describe the mechanisms of accountability now that we have a Parliament and a public water industry? It is important to stress that both of those things have now been established.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is important to emphasise the commitment to retain the industry in the public sector. Will the minister describe the mechanisms of accountability now that we have a Parliament and a public water industry? It is important to stress that both of those things have now been established.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C707929", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Water Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26831, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 803.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 803.0, "ID": 26831, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Goldie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 831.0, "ContributionID": 707929, "EditedText": "On a point of order. Had I been able to express myself as Mr McNulty has done, I could have asked about five questions.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. Had I been able to express myself as Mr McNulty has done, I could have asked about five questions.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2188E70P92C707938", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Water Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26831, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 803.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 803.0, "ID": 26831, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harper, Robin", "ID": 2188, "PartyName": "Scottish Green Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Green", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robin Harper", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robin Harper (Lothians) (Green): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 849.0, "ContributionID": 707938, "EditedText": "A motion on public appointments will, I hope, be lodged soon. In view of that, will the minister tell us how many people were considered for the post and how many were on the final shortleet?", "EditedTextHTML": "A motion on public appointments will, I hope, be lodged soon. In view of that, will the minister tell us how many people were considered for the post and how many were on the final shortleet?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1762E216P508C707942", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Water Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26831, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 803.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 803.0, "ID": 26831, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Elder, Dorothy-Grace", "ID": 1762, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 857.0, "ContributionID": 707942, "EditedText": "As the minister has referred to her desire for openness and transparency, will she detail how much the first water commissioner for Scotland is being paid, what benefits he will receive and how much his likely staff will cost?", "EditedTextHTML": "As the minister has referred to her desire for openness and transparency, will she detail how much the first water commissioner for Scotland is being paid, what benefits he will receive and how much his likely staff will cost?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C707949", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26832, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 869.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 869.0, "ID": 26832, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Communities (Ms Wendy Alexander): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 873.0, "ContributionID": 707949, "EditedText": "Tackling homelessness is a fitting challenge for this Parliament. The most extreme form of homelessness—rough sleeping—is one of the most serious forms of social exclusion in Scotland. It is demeaning, damages self-esteem and blights life chances, sometimes forever. That is why, when the First Minister invited each of his Cabinet colleagues to choose their top priority for the programme of government, I chose to end the need for anyone to have to sleep rough by the end of this Parliament. That promise is not made as some moralistic gesture but as a concrete and hugely ambitious target by which I invite this Parliament to judge the Executive's efforts. Let me anticipate some of the interventions. The target date is no longer December 2002, but May 2003. I will tell members why. It is because that change of date signals a change of direction. Last week, in the programme for government debate, we listened to some cheap knockabout that I had hoped would be left in another place. \"It's all about focus groups,\" said the Tories. \"It's all about PR spin,\" said the SNP. I would like this debate to make Scotland feel better about its politicians. The new direction on rough sleeping comes from what Jackie Baillie and I have seen and heard throughout Scotland this summer. Two years ago, within weeks of coming to power, Labour made its commitment to the rough sleepers initiative. There are already 138 hostel places and 100 new support workers; 1,364 rough sleepers have been helped, 200 of them directly from the streets. Jackie and I wanted to know what was happening on the ground. We travelled around Scotland and saw what was happening at the sharp end. We visited the new Shelter family project in Edinburgh, the Simon Community safe houses in Glasgow and The Big Issue and its vendors. Next week we will go to Glasgow's lodging house mission. We were listening and learning; now we are acting. All the organisations had the same message; rooflessness is about more than housing. During the past two years, the rough sleepers initiative has given people at the sharp end a chance to pause and undertake some serious survey work, often for the first time, on rough sleeping. We now know that 8,000 Scots probably spend at least one night a year sleeping rough. We are also learning what keeps people on the streets.", "EditedTextHTML": "Tackling homelessness is a fitting challenge for this Parliament. The most extreme form of homelessness—rough sleeping—is one of the most serious forms of social exclusion in Scotland. It is demeaning, damages self-esteem and blights life chances, sometimes forever. That is why, when the First Minister invited each of his Cabinet colleagues to choose their top priority for the programme of government, I chose to end the need for anyone to have to sleep rough by the end of this Parliament. That promise is not made as some moralistic gesture but as a concrete and hugely ambitious target by which I invite this Parliament to judge the Executive's efforts.

Let me anticipate some of the interventions. The target date is no longer December 2002, but May 2003. I will tell members why. It is because that change of date signals a change of direction.

Last week, in the programme for government debate, we listened to some cheap knockabout that I had hoped would be left in another place. \"It's all about focus groups,\" said the Tories. \"It's all about PR spin,\" said the SNP. I would like this debate to make Scotland feel better about its politicians.

The new direction on rough sleeping comes from what Jackie Baillie and I have seen and heard throughout Scotland this summer. Two years ago, within weeks of coming to power, Labour made its commitment to the rough sleepers initiative. There are already 138 hostel places and 100 new support workers; 1,364 rough sleepers have been helped, 200 of them directly from the streets.

Jackie and I wanted to know what was happening on the ground. We travelled around Scotland and saw what was happening at the sharp end. We visited the new Shelter family project in Edinburgh, the Simon Community safe houses in Glasgow and The Big Issue and its vendors. Next week we will go to Glasgow's lodging house mission. We were listening and learning; now we are acting. All the organisations had the same message; rooflessness is about more than housing.

During the past two years, the rough sleepers initiative has given people at the sharp end a chance to pause and undertake some serious survey work, often for the first time, on rough sleeping. We now know that 8,000 Scots probably spend at least one night a year sleeping rough. We are also learning what keeps people on the streets.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C707955", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26832, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 869.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 869.0, "ID": 26832, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 885.0, "ContributionID": 707955, "EditedText": "The bill is not a tired gesture, like a Westminster 10-minute rule bill, but new back-bench legislation prepared in a new way for a new Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "The bill is not a tired gesture, like a Westminster 10-minute rule bill, but new back-bench legislation prepared in a new way for a new Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2080E130P217C707962", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26832, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 869.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 869.0, "ID": 26832, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lamont, Johann", "ID": 2080, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Pollok" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Johann Lamont", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Johann Lamont (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 901.0, "ContributionID": 707962, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1752E75P296C707966", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26832, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 869.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 869.0, "ID": 26832, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jamieson, Cathy", "ID": 1752, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Cathy Jamieson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Cathy Jamieson (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab) rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 909.0, "ContributionID": 707966, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C707971", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26832, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 869.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 869.0, "ID": 26832, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 919.0, "ContributionID": 707971, "EditedText": "Wind up as you answer, Mr Aitken.", "EditedTextHTML": "Wind up as you answer, Mr Aitken.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C707973", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26832, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 869.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 869.0, "ID": 26832, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 923.0, "ContributionID": 707973, "EditedText": "We now move to the open part of the debate. Members will restrict their remarks to four minutes. Many members wish to take part in what is obviously an important debate, so it will be helpful if members try to abide by the time limit.", "EditedTextHTML": "We now move to the open part of the debate. Members will restrict their remarks to four minutes. Many members wish to take part in what is obviously an important debate, so it will be helpful if members try to abide by the time limit.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2185E120P328C707976", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26832, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 869.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 869.0, "ID": 26832, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Brown, Robert", "ID": 2185, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robert Brown", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robert Brown: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 930.0, "ContributionID": 707976, "EditedText": "I accept that concept, but it is a broader matter. Similar issues apply to how we deal with evictions from tenancy cases, and a series of reforms concerning the need for permanent accommodation, the reversal of earlier judgments, the new social tenancies and so on is long overdue. I do not want to hold up the chamber on this matter, but I think that there is broad support among all parties for proceeding, as Shelter and other organisations have asked us to do, with a range of reforms that can be dealt with now, and which will allow the homelessness task force to concentrate on the more central issues, including the rough sleepers initiative. I hope that the Executive and the Parliament will still give a fair wind to my member's bill when it goes forward—it has been lodged. The Liberal Democrats have a long track record on homelessness. The original Housing (Homeless Persons) Act 1977 was a private member's bill from the Liberal MP, Stephen Ross. It passed into law as part of the original Lib-Lab pact. We have long argued for a number of the things that we have heard about today on the need to reduce the level of unnecessarily empty houses, rent deposit schemes and the like. It is important for the Executive not to take a possessive attitude towards legislation through this Parliament and for there to be a reasonable balance between the rights of the Executive to pursue its legislation and the rights of committees and back benchers to examine the details of the proposed legislation and put forward their own ideas. We need a unified effort on this matter, and it is unfortunate that the Executive has not taken on board the opportunity to introduce some complementary measures, which would assist its whole programme. Against that background and with those comments, I support the motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "I accept that concept, but it is a broader matter. Similar issues apply to how we deal with evictions from tenancy cases, and a series of reforms concerning the need for permanent accommodation, the reversal of earlier judgments, the new social tenancies and so on is long overdue.

I do not want to hold up the chamber on this matter, but I think that there is broad support among all parties for proceeding, as Shelter and other organisations have asked us to do, with a range of reforms that can be dealt with now, and which will allow the homelessness task force to concentrate on the more central issues, including the rough sleepers initiative. I hope that the Executive and the Parliament will still give a fair wind to my member's bill when it goes forward—it has been lodged.

The Liberal Democrats have a long track record on homelessness. The original Housing (Homeless Persons) Act 1977 was a private member's bill from the Liberal MP, Stephen Ross. It passed into law as part of the original Lib-Lab pact. We have long argued for a number of the things that we have heard about today on the need to reduce the level of unnecessarily empty houses, rent deposit schemes and the like.

It is important for the Executive not to take a possessive attitude towards legislation through this Parliament and for there to be a reasonable balance between the rights of the Executive to pursue its legislation and the rights of committees and back benchers to examine the details of the proposed legislation and put forward their own ideas. We need a unified effort on this matter, and it is unfortunate that the Executive has not taken on board the opportunity to introduce some complementary measures, which would assist its whole programme. Against that background and with those comments, I support the motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2118E157P454C707978", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26832, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 869.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 869.0, "ID": 26832, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Quinan, Mr Lloyd", "ID": 2118, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lloyd Quinan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Quinan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 935.0, "ContributionID": 707978, "EditedText": "Will Mr Watson give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr Watson give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2118E157P454C707982", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26832, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 869.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 869.0, "ID": 26832, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Quinan, Mr Lloyd", "ID": 2118, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lloyd Quinan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Quinan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 943.0, "ContributionID": 707982, "EditedText": "Does Mr Watson acknowledge that the Social Inclusion, Housing and Voluntary Sector Committee agreed yesterday that ministerial statements that directly affect the committee are unacceptable if they are not delivered in front of the committee, and that the committee was unanimous in that agreement?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does Mr Watson acknowledge that the Social Inclusion, Housing and Voluntary Sector Committee agreed yesterday that ministerial statements that directly affect the committee are unacceptable if they are not delivered in front of the committee, and that the committee was unanimous in that agreement?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6233855+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C707985", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26832, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 869.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 869.0, "ID": 26832, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 950.0, "ContributionID": 707985, "EditedText": "Does Tricia Marwick acknowledge that youth unemployment has halved in Scotland in the past two years, which shows that one of the problems that she cites is being dealt with? Given the need for new investment, does she support our plans for community ownership in Glasgow, which would bring investment of around £1,000 million to the city?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does Tricia Marwick acknowledge that youth unemployment has halved in Scotland in the past two years, which shows that one of the problems that she cites is being dealt with? Given the need for new investment, does she support our plans for community ownership in Glasgow, which would bring investment of around £1,000 million to the city?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6390045+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1820E139P227C707993", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26832, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 869.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 869.0, "ID": 26832, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Curran, Margaret", "ID": 1820, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Baillieston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Curran", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Margaret Curran (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 969.0, "ContributionID": 707993, "EditedText": "The new politics must be with us, as the Tories are supporting the SNP and dare to lecture us about homelessness. I have heard it all now. I must express some disappointment. As Convener of the Social Inclusion, Housing and Voluntary Sector Committee, I have gone out of my way to make clear to members of that committee that we do not regard any one party as having a monopoly on good intentions and commitment on this issue. I am disappointed that that has not been echoed throughout the chamber. We wish that the minister would come to the committee with her announcements, not least because I think that she has something substantial to say, which should be brought to the committee. However, that is hardly the most profound criticism of a Government that I have heard. It is important that we welcome the establishment of the task force on homelessness and the Executive's explicit commitments on the rough sleepers initiative. It is vital that we give credit to ministerial commitment to action—rather than sloganising and good will—that will monitored and measured by outcome. That is a welcome development in government, not just on homelessness but across the board. Some of us have argued for some time that we must deal with the complexities of homelessness, as its impact and causes are varied in relation to individuals, families and communities. The indications are that the task force will recognise that and consider the different responses and strategies that are required to meet those different needs. From the minister's paperwork, I see that she is examining recent research and the variety of supported accommodation projects. We need a variety of accommodation to meet the variety of needs. As Convener of the Social Inclusion, Housing and Voluntary Sector Committee, I welcome the fact that the minister has made it clear that rooflessness is not the only problem and that the problems that we face are interconnected. We cannot separate measures to deal with homelessness from strategies on drug addiction, violence and family breakdown. I make one plea about family breakdown. We often hear simplistic debate about it, because too often it is discussed as though young people leave their families because they are weak and incapable of managing the situation in which they find themselves. Many young people leave their families for logical reasons. If members examine statistics and stories about child abuse and sexual abuse, they will understand how many vulnerable young people find themselves in such situations. I welcome the fact that the task force will examine that issue in depth. I have recently heard compelling evidence fromyoung people, their families and professionals about the problems that are faced. There is a continuum of experience—some of the homeless population can be supported into a framework of stability and progress. However, I hope that this Parliament will give particular attention to young people with significant problems. I welcome the minister's comments on young people who experience difficulty on leaving care. They may have had profoundly traumatic experiences and may find it very difficult to sustain a tenancy. We need a substantial package of intervention to deal with that problem. I hope that the committee's work on the drugs issue and the inquiry that we intend to hold will make a contribution to the homelessness debate. The Parliament should give some attention to the need for a comprehensive youth strategy that considers all young people's needs. I make a plea for those who are most marginalised and most disengaged—they must command our attention. I am particularly concerned about the increasing number of young people who are being taken into care in Glasgow, which goes against the national trend. Clearly, that is related to issues of exclusion and disadvantage, particularly drug misuse. To echo a point that John McAllion made in committee, the cities of Scotland bear a particularly heavy burden in this respect. For example, the Glasgow drug crisis centre costs the city council and the health board £1 million a year to run, but the latest figures indicate that more than 10 per cent of the people who use the service come from outwith Glasgow. We have to consider the distribution of support to the cities and recognise that cities, especially Glasgow, are at the sharp end of these problems. That should be reflected in the financial support that they receive. I do not doubt that there is a desire throughout this chamber to deal with homelessness. We must realise that it is time to create a constructive dialogue and to engage with workers on the ground and those who experience the problem. I believe that the task force is the first step in that direction. The agencies have a palpable sense of hope that we are beginning to move on this issue. They do not offer us uncritical support, nor should they; we, for our part, will not be uncritical of the services that young people are offered. However, it is time for the Parliament to make its presence felt and to begin to concentrate on what it can do, rather than on what it cannot. There is a sense that we can bring about real change. I hope that we will support the Executive when it is doing good work.", "EditedTextHTML": "The new politics must be with us, as the

Tories are supporting the SNP and dare to lecture us about homelessness. I have heard it all now.

I must express some disappointment. As Convener of the Social Inclusion, Housing and Voluntary Sector Committee, I have gone out of my way to make clear to members of that committee that we do not regard any one party as having a monopoly on good intentions and commitment on this issue. I am disappointed that that has not been echoed throughout the chamber.

We wish that the minister would come to the committee with her announcements, not least because I think that she has something substantial to say, which should be brought to the committee. However, that is hardly the most profound criticism of a Government that I have heard.

It is important that we welcome the establishment of the task force on homelessness and the Executive's explicit commitments on the rough sleepers initiative. It is vital that we give credit to ministerial commitment to action—rather than sloganising and good will—that will monitored and measured by outcome. That is a welcome development in government, not just on homelessness but across the board. Some of us have argued for some time that we must deal with the complexities of homelessness, as its impact and causes are varied in relation to individuals, families and communities. The indications are that the task force will recognise that and consider the different responses and strategies that are required to meet those different needs.

From the minister's paperwork, I see that she is examining recent research and the variety of supported accommodation projects. We need a variety of accommodation to meet the variety of needs.

As Convener of the Social Inclusion, Housing and Voluntary Sector Committee, I welcome the fact that the minister has made it clear that rooflessness is not the only problem and that the problems that we face are interconnected. We cannot separate measures to deal with homelessness from strategies on drug addiction, violence and family breakdown.

I make one plea about family breakdown. We often hear simplistic debate about it, because too often it is discussed as though young people leave their families because they are weak and incapable of managing the situation in which they find themselves. Many young people leave their families for logical reasons. If members examine statistics and stories about child abuse and sexual abuse, they will understand how many vulnerable young people find themselves in such situations. I welcome the fact that the task force will examine that issue in depth.

I have recently heard compelling evidence from

young people, their families and professionals about the problems that are faced. There is a continuum of experience—some of the homeless population can be supported into a framework of stability and progress. However, I hope that this Parliament will give particular attention to young people with significant problems. I welcome the minister's comments on young people who experience difficulty on leaving care. They may have had profoundly traumatic experiences and may find it very difficult to sustain a tenancy. We need a substantial package of intervention to deal with that problem. I hope that the committee's work on the drugs issue and the inquiry that we intend to hold will make a contribution to the homelessness debate.

The Parliament should give some attention to the need for a comprehensive youth strategy that considers all young people's needs. I make a plea for those who are most marginalised and most disengaged—they must command our attention.

I am particularly concerned about the increasing number of young people who are being taken into care in Glasgow, which goes against the national trend. Clearly, that is related to issues of exclusion and disadvantage, particularly drug misuse. To echo a point that John McAllion made in committee, the cities of Scotland bear a particularly heavy burden in this respect. For example, the Glasgow drug crisis centre costs the city council and the health board £1 million a year to run, but the latest figures indicate that more than 10 per cent of the people who use the service come from outwith Glasgow. We have to consider the distribution of support to the cities and recognise that cities, especially Glasgow, are at the sharp end of these problems. That should be reflected in the financial support that they receive.

I do not doubt that there is a desire throughout this chamber to deal with homelessness. We must realise that it is time to create a constructive dialogue and to engage with workers on the ground and those who experience the problem. I believe that the task force is the first step in that direction. The agencies have a palpable sense of hope that we are beginning to move on this issue. They do not offer us uncritical support, nor should they; we, for our part, will not be uncritical of the services that young people are offered. However, it is time for the Parliament to make its presence felt and to begin to concentrate on what it can do, rather than on what it cannot. There is a sense that we can bring about real change. I hope that we will support the Executive when it is doing good work.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6390045+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2118E157P454C707996", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26832, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 869.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 869.0, "ID": 26832, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Quinan, Mr Lloyd", "ID": 2118, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lloyd Quinan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Lloyd Quinan (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 978.0, "ContributionID": 707996, "EditedText": "I welcome the Executive's contribution to dealing with the problem of homelessness. The extra money is wonderful. It represents a commitment to dealing with something that is not so much a scourge on our streets as—now that we are entering the 21st century—a disgrace. I grew up in Edinburgh; in the 1960s, people chose to sleep in the streets. They no longer choose to; they are forced to. I welcome without equivocation the contribution of the Minister for Communities. However, there are many concerns. Some of them have been articulated by my colleagues this afternoon, some by organisations in the voluntary sector and some by homeless and roofless people themselves. The first concern relates to a statement attributed to the Minister for Communities in today's edition of The Herald. She is reported as saying that homelessness \"is not a problem about housing; this is not a problem about bricks and mortar\".", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the Executive's contribution to dealing with the problem of homelessness. The extra money is wonderful. It represents a commitment to dealing with something that is not so much a scourge on our streets as—now that we are entering the 21st century—a disgrace. I grew up in Edinburgh; in the 1960s, people chose to sleep in the streets. They no longer choose to; they are forced to. I welcome without equivocation the contribution of the Minister for Communities.

However, there are many concerns. Some of them have been articulated by my colleagues this afternoon, some by organisations in the voluntary sector and some by homeless and roofless people themselves. The first concern relates to a statement attributed to the Minister for Communities in today's edition of The Herald. She is reported as saying that homelessness

\"is not a problem about housing; this is not a problem about bricks and mortar\".

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6390045+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708000", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26833, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 987.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 987.0, "ID": 26833, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 989.0, "ContributionID": 708000, "EditedText": "There are six questions to be put as a result of today's business. The first question is, that amendment S1M-151.2, in the name of Sarah Boyack, be agreed to. Are we agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "There are six questions to be put as a result of today's business.

The first question is, that amendment S1M-151.2, in the name of Sarah Boyack, be agreed to. Are we agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6390045+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708002", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26833, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 987.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 987.0, "ID": 26833, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 993.0, "ContributionID": 708002, "EditedText": "There will be a division.", "EditedTextHTML": "There will be a division.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6390045+00:00" }, { "ID": "C708003", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26833, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 987.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 987.0, "ID": 26833, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 995.0, "ContributionID": 708003, "EditedText": "FOR Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)(LD)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)AGAINST Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)
(LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)

AGAINST

Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6390045+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708006", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26833, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 987.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 987.0, "ID": 26833, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 999.0, "ContributionID": 708006, "EditedText": "The second question is, that motion S1M-151, in the name of Murray Tosh, as amended, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "The second question is, that motion S1M-151, in the name of Murray Tosh, as amended, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6390045+00:00" }, { "ID": "C708007", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26833, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 987.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 987.0, "ID": 26833, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1001.0, "ContributionID": 708007, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6390045+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708008", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26833, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 987.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 987.0, "ID": 26833, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1003.0, "ContributionID": 708008, "EditedText": "As there is dissent, there will be a division.", "EditedTextHTML": "As there is dissent, there will be a division.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6390045+00:00" }, { "ID": "C708013", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26833, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 987.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 987.0, "ID": 26833, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1010.0, "ContributionID": 708013, "EditedText": "Programme of Government commitments on investing in public transport, promoting a national transport timetable and bringing forward a Transport Bill in early 2000 whilst reflecting the diverse transport needs of all Scotland's people, in particular those living in rural areas, and by so doing to take the decisions required to deliver, working with others, an integrated transport system fit for the 21st century.", "EditedTextHTML": "Programme of Government commitments on investing in public transport, promoting a national transport timetable and bringing forward a Transport Bill in early 2000 whilst reflecting the diverse transport needs of all Scotland's people, in particular those living in rural areas, and by so doing to take the decisions required to deliver, working with others, an integrated transport system fit for the 21st century.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6390045+00:00" }, { "ID": "C708024", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26833, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 987.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 987.0, "ID": 26833, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1027.0, "ContributionID": 708024, "EditedText": "Amendment disagreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment disagreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6390045+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C708028", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26833, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 987.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 987.0, "ID": 26833, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1032.0, "ContributionID": 708028, "EditedText": "That concludes decision time, so we will move to members' business.", "EditedTextHTML": "That concludes decision time, so we will move to members' business.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6390045+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1985E207P501C708049", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Salmon Farming", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26834, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1038.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1038.0, "ID": 26834, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hamilton, Mr Duncan", "ID": 1985, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Hamilton: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1080.0, "ContributionID": 708049, "EditedText": "In that case, I am afraid that I will not give way. I would welcome the minister's comments on the specific question of reassuring the industry on the £3 million per annum given to Highlands and Islands Enterprise.", "EditedTextHTML": "In that case, I am afraid that I will not give way.

I would welcome the minister's comments on the specific question of reassuring the industry on the £3 million per annum given to Highlands and Islands Enterprise.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2223E203P342C708034", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Salmon Farming", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26834, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1038.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1038.0, "ID": 26834, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scott, Tavish", "ID": 2223, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Shetland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tavish Scott", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tavish Scott (Shetland) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1044.0, "ContributionID": 708034, "EditedText": "One of the joys of living in Shetland is that one cannot rush for a train at this time of night. I am stuck here in Edinburgh until Friday morning, but that creates time to speak on this subject, which is important for my constituency and, I would argue, for Scotland as a whole. I am grateful to the Parliamentary Bureau for allocating time in the busy parliamentary day for this debate and I would like to bring a number of issues to do with the salmon farming industry to the attention of the Parliament. I will give the example of the island of Skerries, which is 10 miles off the east coast of Shetland and is home to some 80 people. The island has white fish trawlers, inshore fishing boats, a fish farm processing factory, and—of course—a salmon farm. The salmon farm is not owned by a multinational, nor is it owned from outwith the island—it is owned and managed from within the island of Skerries. It is the community—more than half the jobs on the island rely on it. The community grows, harvests and packs its own fish. Skerries salmon farm had a suspected case of infectious salmon anaemia—ISA—in May, which could lead to the forced slaughter of the fish and a six-month fallow period on the farm, during which there can be no restocking. The regime that now dictates the future of the farm puts the community in jeopardy. Along with the rest of the industry in Shetland, the Skerries salmon farm needs solutions, urgent action and a Government that cares about peripheral communities. Skerries epitomises all that is best about a go- ahead determined community that is living, literally, on the edge of the world. Failing the people there, and many others like them, is not an option. Skerries is a microcosm of Shetland. Aquaculture has kept communities alive: it means new houses, rural schools growing and not closing, active public hall committees, and active communities throughout Shetland. Turnover in the industry in the islands has grown from some £220,000 in 1984 to some £57 million last year. The industry produces 35,000 tonnes of salmon. A total of 46 farms employ more than 400 people directly and 900 in total, representing 8 per cent of the working population in Shetland. That is how important salmon farming is to the community I live in. Those of us who are aware of ISA know that it is a naturally occurring viral disease that cannot affect humans. It is simply the fish equivalent of the common cold. The advice of the Advisory Committee on the Microbiological Safety of Food is that the disease poses no threat to humans. The disease was first formally recorded in Norway in 1984. Incidents were then reported in Canada. Today, we must discuss how the Executive's policy of ISA eradication can be adapted to give the industry some hope for a sustainable future. Last Monday, in a statement released to the salmon industry, Mr Home Robertson said: \"There is no room for complacency, but I believe some adjustments to the current policy would be appropriate. This would lessen the burden the disease is imposing on the industry and discussions to that end are underway with the EC\". I welcome that statement and I hope that the minister can add to it by announcing what adjustments will be made. The minister's view that the industry must act is acknowledged in Shetland. Many positive measures have already been—or are in the process of being—introduced. In Shetland, salmon farmers have been proactive in improving procedures, in ever tightening their hygiene standards and in working towards a sustainable future. The industry is setting up a series of blood water treatment plants, which amounts to £600,000-worth of future investment from a variety of financial sources and which includes input from the Shetland salmon industry. The industry is also working towards a fundamental reform of the works licence policy, which is happening with the co-operation of environmental organisations, the local authority and the industry, and a code of best practice that will cover all aspects of salmon farming, including husbandry, stocking and hygiene. Shetland has its own independent quality control mechanisms and individual farms are completing accreditation and proceeding through to the Scottish food quality certification status which, as Mr Home Robertson and Mr Finnie know, covers not just salmon but all of Scotland's food output.Although the industry is making progress, it needs the support of the Government. I welcome the minister's announcement on 6 September of £3 million a year in a reinvestment package through Highlands and Islands Enterprise. That is a step forward, as is dropping the matching funding requirement in light of the PricewaterhouseCoopers report. However, the industry needs to have details worked out quickly and I am hoping for such a commitment from the minister today. It took from February to September to get the reinvestment package right. The relaxation sought by the industry must happen. I hope that the minister will accept the urgency of the situation and that he will pass that urgency on to his officials to get them out to farms to work with practical people in order to get the situation right quickly. I hope that, for example, he can send his officials to Shetland to work with the Shetland salmon industry towards practical solutions, because people there want to work through the problems quickly so that the industry knows where it is going. Mr Home Robertson's statement rejects the industry's call for a Government-funded insurance scheme. The minister knows that commercial insurers will consider insuring against ISA only if the European Union's regime moves towards a set of control measures as used in Norway, which includes a cage-by-cage slaughter regime. The time scale by which fish must be removed is also hugely important. I ask that the minister, after his statement last week, update the industry on those changes with considerable urgency so that commercial insurance—the big step forward—can be included in the equation as soon as possible. Such changes will mean adaptation or interpretation of the EU rules. In his closing remarks, will the minister describe what stage discussions on the matter are at and what progress the department is making in Brussels? Will he also set out the time scale within the EU for approving a vaccine as part of the eradication plan? The costs of ISA to Shetland salmon farming are huge. Losses between September 1998 and June 1999 have been calculated at £1.9 million. Forecast losses due to the deferral of smolts— baby salmon—that have been put in cages as part of the eradication regime are estimated at £5 million, which amounts to 20,000 tonnes of farmed salmon and 900 jobs. What happens to those jobs if production is cut in half? In the past six to eight months, some 36 jobs have gone. I want that process to stop. I want the industry, which is the future of the island in so many ways, to stop haemorrhaging. The final issue I ask the minister to address is the production tax levied by the Crown Estate. Skerries Salmon—a small farm—pays corporation tax; it does not need to pay yet another tax. It pays £19.50 a tonne to the Crown Estate. For what? Members may well ask. In the past year, £650,000 was removed from an industry in Shetland that was in crisis. I am sure that colleagues from other parts of the Highlands and Islands could give similar figures. I want that £650,000 to be reinvested, for example in research, and not used for a little help here or a little research project there. We need a real long- lasting worthwhile project that benefits not just the current generation of salmon farmers but future generations. I want to suggest that the Crown Estate tax is put back into the industry using, for example, the highly skilled educational and research facilities at the North Atlantic Fisheries College in Scalloway, which I know the minister visited on his recent trip to Shetland. The industry must have a sustainable and viable future and we must build that future. The Executive should tell the Crown Estate, which has for so long taken money out of the industry, that its time is up and that it is time to put the money back into building the future. Building a new future must be the Parliament's commitment in support of a hugely important Shetland and Scottish industry. I ask the minister to consider some of those points in his reply.", "EditedTextHTML": "One of the joys of living in Shetland is that one cannot rush for a train at this time of night. I am stuck here in Edinburgh until Friday morning, but that creates time to speak on this subject, which is important for my constituency and, I would argue, for Scotland as a whole. I am grateful to the Parliamentary Bureau for allocating time in the busy parliamentary day for this debate and I would like to bring a number of issues to do with the salmon farming industry to the attention of the Parliament.

I will give the example of the island of Skerries, which is 10 miles off the east coast of Shetland and is home to some 80 people. The island has white fish trawlers, inshore fishing boats, a fish farm processing factory, and—of course—a salmon farm. The salmon farm is not owned by a multinational, nor is it owned from outwith the island—it is owned and managed from within the island of Skerries. It is the community—more than half the jobs on the island rely on it. The community grows, harvests and packs its own fish.

Skerries salmon farm had a suspected case of infectious salmon anaemia—ISA—in May, which could lead to the forced slaughter of the fish and a six-month fallow period on the farm, during which there can be no restocking. The regime that now dictates the future of the farm puts the community in jeopardy. Along with the rest of the industry in Shetland, the Skerries salmon farm needs solutions, urgent action and a Government that cares about peripheral communities.

Skerries epitomises all that is best about a go- ahead determined community that is living, literally, on the edge of the world. Failing the people there, and many others like them, is not an option. Skerries is a microcosm of Shetland.

Aquaculture has kept communities alive: it means new houses, rural schools growing and not closing, active public hall committees, and active communities throughout Shetland.

Turnover in the industry in the islands has grown from some £220,000 in 1984 to some £57 million last year. The industry produces 35,000 tonnes of salmon. A total of 46 farms employ more than 400 people directly and 900 in total, representing 8 per cent of the working population in Shetland. That is how important salmon farming is to the community I live in.

Those of us who are aware of ISA know that it is a naturally occurring viral disease that cannot affect humans. It is simply the fish equivalent of the common cold. The advice of the Advisory Committee on the Microbiological Safety of Food is that the disease poses no threat to humans.

The disease was first formally recorded in Norway in 1984. Incidents were then reported in Canada. Today, we must discuss how the Executive's policy of ISA eradication can be adapted to give the industry some hope for a sustainable future. Last Monday, in a statement released to the salmon industry, Mr Home Robertson said:

\"There is no room for complacency, but I believe some adjustments to the current policy would be appropriate. This would lessen the burden the disease is imposing on the industry and discussions to that end are underway with the EC\".

I welcome that statement and I hope that the minister can add to it by announcing what adjustments will be made.

The minister's view that the industry must act is acknowledged in Shetland. Many positive measures have already been—or are in the process of being—introduced. In Shetland, salmon farmers have been proactive in improving procedures, in ever tightening their hygiene standards and in working towards a sustainable future. The industry is setting up a series of blood water treatment plants, which amounts to £600,000-worth of future investment from a variety of financial sources and which includes input from the Shetland salmon industry.

The industry is also working towards a fundamental reform of the works licence policy, which is happening with the co-operation of environmental organisations, the local authority and the industry, and a code of best practice that will cover all aspects of salmon farming, including husbandry, stocking and hygiene.

Shetland has its own independent quality control mechanisms and individual farms are completing accreditation and proceeding through to the Scottish food quality certification status which, as Mr Home Robertson and Mr Finnie know, covers

not just salmon but all of Scotland's food output.

Although the industry is making progress, it needs the support of the Government. I welcome the minister's announcement on 6 September of £3 million a year in a reinvestment package through Highlands and Islands Enterprise. That is a step forward, as is dropping the matching funding requirement in light of the PricewaterhouseCoopers report. However, the industry needs to have details worked out quickly and I am hoping for such a commitment from the minister today.

It took from February to September to get the reinvestment package right. The relaxation sought by the industry must happen. I hope that the minister will accept the urgency of the situation and that he will pass that urgency on to his officials to get them out to farms to work with practical people in order to get the situation right quickly. I hope that, for example, he can send his officials to Shetland to work with the Shetland salmon industry towards practical solutions, because people there want to work through the problems quickly so that the industry knows where it is going.

Mr Home Robertson's statement rejects the industry's call for a Government-funded insurance scheme. The minister knows that commercial insurers will consider insuring against ISA only if the European Union's regime moves towards a set of control measures as used in Norway, which includes a cage-by-cage slaughter regime.

The time scale by which fish must be removed is also hugely important. I ask that the minister, after his statement last week, update the industry on those changes with considerable urgency so that commercial insurance—the big step forward—can be included in the equation as soon as possible.

Such changes will mean adaptation or interpretation of the EU rules. In his closing remarks, will the minister describe what stage discussions on the matter are at and what progress the department is making in Brussels? Will he also set out the time scale within the EU for approving a vaccine as part of the eradication plan?

The costs of ISA to Shetland salmon farming are huge. Losses between September 1998 and June 1999 have been calculated at £1.9 million. Forecast losses due to the deferral of smolts— baby salmon—that have been put in cages as part of the eradication regime are estimated at £5 million, which amounts to 20,000 tonnes of farmed salmon and 900 jobs. What happens to those jobs if production is cut in half?

In the past six to eight months, some 36 jobs have gone. I want that process to stop. I want the industry, which is the future of the island in so many ways, to stop haemorrhaging.

The final issue I ask the minister to address is the production tax levied by the Crown Estate. Skerries Salmon—a small farm—pays corporation tax; it does not need to pay yet another tax. It pays £19.50 a tonne to the Crown Estate. For what? Members may well ask.

In the past year, £650,000 was removed from an industry in Shetland that was in crisis. I am sure that colleagues from other parts of the Highlands and Islands could give similar figures. I want that £650,000 to be reinvested, for example in research, and not used for a little help here or a little research project there. We need a real long- lasting worthwhile project that benefits not just the current generation of salmon farmers but future generations.

I want to suggest that the Crown Estate tax is put back into the industry using, for example, the highly skilled educational and research facilities at the North Atlantic Fisheries College in Scalloway, which I know the minister visited on his recent trip to Shetland. The industry must have a sustainable and viable future and we must build that future. The Executive should tell the Crown Estate, which has for so long taken money out of the industry, that its time is up and that it is time to put the money back into building the future.

Building a new future must be the Parliament's commitment in support of a hugely important Shetland and Scottish industry. I ask the minister to consider some of those points in his reply.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C708037", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Salmon Farming", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26834, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1038.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1038.0, "ID": 26834, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Annabel Goldie (West of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1052.0, "ContributionID": 708037, "EditedText": "I thank Tavish for bringing this motion before the chamber. I think that it is extremely helpful. The issue I want to focus on is fairly technical and, indeed, slightly obscure. Having spoken to Tavish before the debate, I appreciate that it may not be a particularly visible part of the problem in Scotland, but it affects other areas of salmon farming. My point concerns the anomaly that arises when a salmon farmer is required by law to slaughter his salmon stock. That has immediate effects on jobs and the financial sustainability of that salmon farm. There is also a more insidious and corrosive consequence. The loss of the stock in those circumstances would appear to fall between two stools. It is not an insurable risk. If the salmon has died not as a direct consequence of ISA, but because of the mandatory need to slaughter following the Government directive, that is not an insurable risk, nor is it a case for statutory compensation by Government. In no way am I seeking to criticise or blame—I realise that this is an obscure and difficult situation—but the practical effect is that, literally overnight, millions of pounds can be wiped off the balance sheets of the industry and its participants. That can have a devastating effect on the viability and sustainability of the industry's operating capacity. Many farmers will be operating with loan funds and they may be pledged by way of security. It will be an alarming consequence to find suddenly that a capital asset in the balance sheet has been eradicated overnight. I have benefited from the submission to me of a legal opinion, produced by one of the major salmon farmers in Scotland. I would be very happy to pass that on to the minister.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank Tavish for bringing this motion before the chamber. I think that it is extremely helpful. The issue I want to focus on is fairly technical and, indeed, slightly obscure. Having spoken to Tavish before the debate, I appreciate that it may not be a particularly visible part of the problem in Scotland, but it affects other areas of salmon farming.

My point concerns the anomaly that arises when a salmon farmer is required by law to slaughter his salmon stock. That has immediate effects on jobs and the financial sustainability of that salmon farm. There is also a more insidious and corrosive consequence. The loss of the stock in those circumstances would appear to fall between two stools. It is not an insurable risk. If the salmon has died not as a direct consequence of ISA, but because of the mandatory need to slaughter following the Government directive, that is not an insurable risk, nor is it a case for statutory compensation by Government.

In no way am I seeking to criticise or blame—I realise that this is an obscure and difficult situation—but the practical effect is that, literally overnight, millions of pounds can be wiped off the balance sheets of the industry and its participants. That can have a devastating effect on the viability and sustainability of the industry's operating capacity. Many farmers will be operating with loan funds and they may be pledged by way of security. It will be an alarming consequence to find suddenly that a capital asset in the balance sheet has been eradicated overnight.

I have benefited from the submission to me of a legal opinion, produced by one of the major salmon farmers in Scotland. I would be very happy to pass that on to the minister.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2100E64P254C708038", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Salmon Farming", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26834, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1038.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1038.0, "ID": 26834, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Home Robertson, John", "ID": 2100, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Lothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "John Home Robertson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs (Mr John Home Robertson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1054.0, "ContributionID": 708038, "EditedText": "I think that we have seen it.", "EditedTextHTML": "I think that we have seen it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C708042", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Salmon Farming", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26834, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1038.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1038.0, "ID": 26834, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1064.0, "ContributionID": 708042, "EditedText": "I call on Jamie McGrigor to make a brief contribution.", "EditedTextHTML": "I call on Jamie McGrigor to make a brief contribution.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1985E207P501C708045", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Salmon Farming", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26834, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1038.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1038.0, "ID": 26834, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hamilton, Mr Duncan", "ID": 1985, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Duncan Hamilton (Highlands and Islands) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1072.0, "ContributionID": 708045, "EditedText": "I will do my very best for you, Mr Reid. I congratulate Tavish on securing this debate, and I echo most—virtually all—of the comments that have been made and the questions that have been raised. We should bear in mind the strength of the pound, as, although this Parliament has no control over that, it is none the less a major contributing factor to the crisis that the industry is facing. When we discuss the problems in the industry, we must pay due attention to that most important issue. I would appreciate specific answers from the minister on the question of the £3 million per annum that is now under the auspices of Highlands and Islands Enterprise. First, what are the criteria for deciding which businesses will be successful in accessing that money? The industry would appreciate clarification on that point. Secondly, will the minister give an undertaking that the decision-making process will be as transparent as the industry—and, indeed, this Parliament— would wish it to be? Finally, the Government's information pack says:\"The industry's response was to welcome the £9 million HIE proposal\". Well, yea and nay—yes, the industry did welcome it, but, on the other hand, I can quote back. The Scottish Salmon Growers Association was \"deeply disappointed\" with the measures that were announced, for the very reasons that Mr Scott, Mr Lyon and others gave. I ask the minister to address the industry's concerns. Mr Michael Foxley, the chairman of Highland Council's land and environment select committee, said: \"I don't think it is acceptable the £9 million fund will be administered solely by HIE.\" Therefore, I do not think that the industry universally welcomed the proposal.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will do my very best for you, Mr Reid.

I congratulate Tavish on securing this debate, and I echo most—virtually all—of the comments that have been made and the questions that have been raised.

We should bear in mind the strength of the pound, as, although this Parliament has no control over that, it is none the less a major contributing factor to the crisis that the industry is facing. When we discuss the problems in the industry, we must pay due attention to that most important issue.

I would appreciate specific answers from the minister on the question of the £3 million per annum that is now under the auspices of Highlands and Islands Enterprise. First, what are the criteria for deciding which businesses will be successful in accessing that money? The industry would appreciate clarification on that point. Secondly, will the minister give an undertaking that the decision-making process will be as transparent as the industry—and, indeed, this Parliament— would wish it to be?

Finally, the Government's information pack says:

\"The industry's response was to welcome the £9 million HIE proposal\".

Well, yea and nay—yes, the industry did welcome it, but, on the other hand, I can quote back. The Scottish Salmon Growers Association was \"deeply disappointed\" with the measures that were announced, for the very reasons that Mr Scott, Mr Lyon and others gave. I ask the minister to address the industry's concerns.

Mr Michael Foxley, the chairman of Highland Council's land and environment select committee, said:

\"I don't think it is acceptable the £9 million fund will be administered solely by HIE.\"

Therefore, I do not think that the industry universally welcomed the proposal.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2066E64P88C708052", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Salmon Farming", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26834, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1038.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1038.0, "ID": 26834, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McGrigor, Jamie", "ID": 2066, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie McGrigor", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McGrigor: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1087.0, "ContributionID": 708052, "EditedText": "Will you take an intervention?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will you take an intervention?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C708056", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Salmon Farming", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26834, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1038.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1038.0, "ID": 26834, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1095.0, "ContributionID": 708056, "EditedText": "That concludes this debate on the crisis in salmon farming.", "EditedTextHTML": "That concludes this debate on the crisis in salmon farming.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.6546314+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1870E181P475C707888", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26804, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 566.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26805, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "QuestionHeading": "People's Juries", "QuestionHeadingID": 26825, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 741.0, "DisplayOrder": 741.0, "ID": 26825, "ParentID": 26805 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robison, Shona", "ID": 1870, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Shona Robison", "SpeakerDisplayName": "22. Shona Robison (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 742.0, "ContributionID": 707888, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive why £1 million has been earmarked to support people's juries rather than the existing network of local community and voluntary groups and whether it has any plans to increase funding for such groups. (S1O-333) The Minister for Communities (Ms Wendy Alexander): We have allocated £1 million to fund both people's panels and people's juries and a further £2 million to support a national skills development programme for community representatives in social inclusion partnerships and the agencies that work with them. The Scottish Executive is therefore supporting a variety of mechanisms to ensure that communities are equipped to influence decision making in their areas.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive why £1 million has been earmarked to support people's juries rather than the existing network of local community and voluntary groups and whether it has any plans to increase funding for such groups. (S1O-333) The Minister for Communities (Ms Wendy Alexander): We have allocated £1 million to fund both people's panels and people's juries and a further £2 million to support a national skills development programme for community representatives in social inclusion partnerships and the agencies that work with them.

The Scottish Executive is therefore supporting a variety of mechanisms to ensure that communities are equipped to influence decision making in their areas.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:00:28.6213377+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C707934", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Water Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26831, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 803.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 803.0, "ID": 26831, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fergus Ewing (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 841.0, "ContributionID": 707934, "EditedText": "On two occasions during the summer there were water shortages in Fort William. The nearest elected councillor serving on the North of Scotland Water Authority was based in the east of Scotland. My constituents would have had to traverse the Mamores and the Cairngorms to consult that councillor. If the minister favours partnership, will she appoint at least two councillors from the Highland Council area, from which not one councillor serves on NOSWA now? If not, is the partnership that she talked about the partnership of Jonah and the whale? Why are NOSWA and the other water authorities not to be members of the proposed Scottish utilities forum?", "EditedTextHTML": "On two occasions during the summer there were water shortages in Fort William. The nearest elected councillor serving on the North of Scotland Water Authority was based in the east of Scotland. My constituents would have had to traverse the Mamores and the Cairngorms to consult that councillor. If the minister favours partnership, will she appoint at least two councillors from the Highland Council area, from which not one councillor serves on NOSWA now? If not, is the partnership that she talked about the partnership of Jonah and the whale?

Why are NOSWA and the other water authorities not to be members of the proposed Scottish utilities forum?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:00:28.6213377+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2180E179P471C707869", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26804, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 566.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26805, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "QuestionHeading": "Fisheries", "QuestionHeadingID": 26820, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 696.0, "DisplayOrder": 696.0, "ID": 26820, "ParentID": 26805 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lochhead, Richard", "ID": 2180, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Lochhead", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Richard Lochhead: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 699.0, "ContributionID": 707869, "EditedText": "I was hoping for a straight yes. Is the minister aware that the fishing industry is 10 times more important to Scotland than it is to the UK, and that 70 per cent of UK fish catches are landed at Scottish ports? The fishing industry expects the Scottish fisheries minister to go over to Europe, not to carry the UK minister's bags, but to bring back the best possible deal for Scotland's fishing industry. Has the minister made representations directly to the UK Government for the Scottish fisheries department to lead all negotiations, given their overriding importance to the Scottish economy?", "EditedTextHTML": "I was hoping for a straight yes. Is the minister aware that the fishing industry is 10 times more important to Scotland than it is to the UK, and that 70 per cent of UK fish catches are landed at Scottish ports?

The fishing industry expects the Scottish fisheries minister to go over to Europe, not to carry the UK minister's bags, but to bring back the best possible deal for Scotland's fishing industry. Has the minister made representations directly to the UK Government for the Scottish fisheries department to lead all negotiations, given their overriding importance to the Scottish economy?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:20.9827029+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2180E179P471C707921", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Water Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26831, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 803.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 803.0, "ID": 26831, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lochhead, Richard", "ID": 2180, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Lochhead", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Richard Lochhead: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 815.0, "ContributionID": 707921, "EditedText": "If the new role is—", "EditedTextHTML": "If the new role is—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:20.9827029+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2180E179P471C707928", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Water Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26831, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 803.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 803.0, "ID": 26831, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lochhead, Richard", "ID": 2180, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Lochhead", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Richard Lochhead rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 829.0, "ContributionID": 707928, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:20.9827029+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C707755", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 445.0, "ContributionID": 707755, "EditedText": "With respect, I wish it to be clear that I made no such statement.", "EditedTextHTML": "With respect, I wish it to be clear that I made no such statement.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:08.9050713+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C707850", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26804, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 566.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26805, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "QuestionHeading": "Rail Services", "QuestionHeadingID": 26815, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 649.0, "DisplayOrder": 649.0, "ID": 26815, "ParentID": 26805 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 656.0, "ContributionID": 707850, "EditedText": "We are exploring with the DETR and the shadow strategic rail authority how guidance issued by the Executive will be taken on board. We will also hold discussions with ScotRail.", "EditedTextHTML": "We are exploring with the DETR and the shadow strategic rail authority how guidance issued by the Executive will be taken on board. We will also hold discussions with ScotRail.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:08.9050713+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C707935", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Water Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26831, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 803.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 803.0, "ID": 26831, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 843.0, "ContributionID": 707935, "EditedText": "It is not possible to ensure that every area is represented on boards. Of the people who put themselves forward, we try to choose from the widest geographical spread possible, bearing in mind, of course, the talents they offer. On the Scottish utilities forum, we think that the system that we have established today will be effective and workable, and will meet our objective of achieving high-quality standards in our water industry, as set out in our programme for government.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is not possible to ensure that every area is represented on boards. Of the people who put themselves forward, we try to choose from the widest geographical spread possible, bearing in mind, of course, the talents they offer.

On the Scottish utilities forum, we think that the system that we have established today will be effective and workable, and will meet our objective of achieving high-quality standards in our water industry, as set out in our programme for government.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:08.9207112+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C707937", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Water Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26831, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 803.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 803.0, "ID": 26831, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 847.0, "ContributionID": 707937, "EditedText": "I am happy to report that the West of Scotland Water Authority is implementing a significant investment programme to ensure that there are cleaner beaches on the Clyde coast. Earlier this summer, I visited the waterworks at Fairlie, where the new system is being introduced. It is important to take into account not only the work of the water authorities but the fact that there are wider industry and agricultural challenges to meet. A key long-term issue that we need to consider is partnership between the range of people involved. I want to pick out the farming community in particular, with whom we had some good discussions over the summer. In the coming years, we will have to address issues such as diffuse pollution, which can be done only in partnership. I am glad to say that the Scottish National Farmers Union's response was very positive, which bodes well for the future.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am happy to report that the West of Scotland Water Authority is implementing a significant investment programme to ensure that there are cleaner beaches on the Clyde coast. Earlier this summer, I visited the waterworks at Fairlie, where the new system is being introduced.

It is important to take into account not only the work of the water authorities but the fact that there are wider industry and agricultural challenges to meet. A key long-term issue that we need to consider is partnership between the range of people involved. I want to pick out the farming community in particular, with whom we had some good discussions over the summer. In the coming years, we will have to address issues such as diffuse pollution, which can be done only in partnership. I am glad to say that the Scottish National Farmers Union's response was very positive, which bodes well for the future.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:08.9207112+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C707564", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment (Sarah Boyack): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 46.0, "ContributionID": 707564, "EditedText": "I am grateful to the Conservative Opposition for this opportunity to debate the future of transport in Scotland and to highlight the depth of confusion and doublethink to which Conservative transport policies have sunk. I commend the Conservatives for their bravery in raising this issue. Scotland's motorists and public transport users deserve a realistic and honest debate; we have seen little of that in recent months. We heard some fine words from our colleague Mr Tosh. He tried to portray himself as the motorist's friend and the defender of the car driver. But what do his words really add up to? From 1979 to 1997, the Conservatives had their chance to show their concern for Scotland's travelling public, and what did they do? They cut spending on motorways and trunk roads from £247 million in 1994-95 to £162 million in 1997-98. They pressed ahead with an over-ambitious road building programme without providing the money to back it up, leaving the roads network to deteriorate. Hardly the motorist's friend.What about public transport?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful to the Conservative Opposition for this opportunity to debate the future of transport in Scotland and to highlight the depth of confusion and doublethink to which Conservative transport policies have sunk. I commend the Conservatives for their bravery in raising this issue. Scotland's motorists and public transport users deserve a realistic and honest debate; we have seen little of that in recent months. We heard some fine words from our colleague Mr Tosh. He tried to portray himself as the motorist's friend and the defender of the car driver. But what do his words really add up to? From 1979 to 1997, the Conservatives had their chance to show their concern for Scotland's travelling public, and what did they do? They cut spending on motorways and trunk roads from £247 million in 1994-95 to £162 million in 1997-98. They pressed ahead with an over-ambitious road building programme without providing the money to back it up, leaving the roads network to deteriorate. Hardly the motorist's friend.

What about public transport?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:05.8270026+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C707579", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 76.0, "ContributionID": 707579, "EditedText": "No, I will not give way. I have taken a number of interventions already, and I would like to get on. The difference between the Government and our opponents is that we are prepared to look honestly and constructively at Scotland's transport problems, and to consider what needs to done to provide solutions. I would like to outline the Executive's agenda for action, explaining how we propose to tackle the Conservatives' legacy of inaction in transport. Our programme for government commits us to delivering an integrated transport policy that will provide genuine choice in meeting our transport, social and economic needs, while protecting the environment as well.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I will not give way. I have taken a number of interventions already, and I would like to get on.

The difference between the Government and our opponents is that we are prepared to look honestly and constructively at Scotland's transport problems, and to consider what needs to done to provide solutions.

I would like to outline the Executive's agenda for action, explaining how we propose to tackle the Conservatives' legacy of inaction in transport. Our programme for government commits us to delivering an integrated transport policy that will provide genuine choice in meeting our transport,

social and economic needs, while protecting the environment as well.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:05.8270026+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C707585", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 88.0, "ContributionID": 707585, "EditedText": "It is difficult to answer several questions when only one was expected. There has been a lot of cheap political posturing in recent days on the issues of fuel duty and reserved matters. I want to make it absolutely clear that, since the day that this Parliament was established, my colleagues and I have been second to none in standing up for Scotland's interests. We have ensured that our interests are placed firmly on the agenda in Whitehall, both through direct contacts with Treasury ministers and through the Secretary of State for Scotland. That is true on tax and on other matters, such as the one that Mr Gallie mentioned. However, it would hardly be in Scotland's interests for me to turn my private contacts with UK Government colleagues into public diplomacy by soundbite. Those who suggest otherwise are putting narrow party politics ahead of Scotland's interests. If anyone doubts this Executive's ability and willingness to defend and promote Scotland's interests, let them reflect on Lord Macdonald's August announcement on opening up Prestwick to freight carriers. That will give Scottish business easier access to world markets—a good outcome for Scottish business and a good outcome for Scottish jobs. That is the sort of negotiation that we are engaged in. At the local level, we are working with local authorities. They are absolutely critical in delivering local solutions to local problems. Our first round of local transport strategies is in place. Our public transport fund will provide £90 million over three years. The first round awarded £29 million over three years to 13 local authorities, and the second round of bids is currently being appraised. At the national level, we are committed to making travel easier for all by delivering an effective national public transport timetable.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is difficult to answer several questions when only one was expected.

There has been a lot of cheap political posturing in recent days on the issues of fuel duty and reserved matters. I want to make it absolutely clear that, since the day that this Parliament was established, my colleagues and I have been second to none in standing up for Scotland's interests.

We have ensured that our interests are placed firmly on the agenda in Whitehall, both through direct contacts with Treasury ministers and through the Secretary of State for Scotland. That is true on tax and on other matters, such as the one that Mr Gallie mentioned. However, it would hardly be in Scotland's interests for me to turn my private contacts with UK Government colleagues into public diplomacy by soundbite. Those who suggest otherwise are putting narrow party politics ahead of Scotland's interests.

If anyone doubts this Executive's ability and willingness to defend and promote Scotland's interests, let them reflect on Lord Macdonald's August announcement on opening up Prestwick to freight carriers. That will give Scottish business easier access to world markets—a good outcome for Scottish business and a good outcome for Scottish jobs. That is the sort of negotiation that we are engaged in.

At the local level, we are working with local authorities. They are absolutely critical in delivering local solutions to local problems. Our first round of local transport strategies is in place. Our public transport fund will provide £90 million over three years. The first round awarded £29 million over three years to 13 local authorities, and the second round of bids is currently being appraised.

At the national level, we are committed to making travel easier for all by delivering an effective national public transport timetable.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:05.8270026+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C707589", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 96.0, "ContributionID": 707589, "EditedText": "We are indeed making representations to the UK Treasury through the correct channels. This year, we are introducing a voluntary scheme that will provide free travel for blind people on bus and rail services. We will spend £18 million over three years to encourage freight on to rail—I welcome Mr Tosh's support for that measure. Only last week, we allocated money to LAW Mining in New Cumnock for that purpose and, on Monday, I was in Grangemouth with Lord Macdonald to announce our largest-ever award for freight road-to-rail transfer. We are also addressing distinct issues in Scotland's rural areas. We are committed to £14 million of new investment over the next three years. Following representations from rural communities, this year we have added more to the pot for rural petrol stations to make sure that people have access to petrol in those areas. Yesterday, I announced 21 community transport awards totalling almost £500,000. From Orkney and Shetland to the Borders, rural Scotland will benefit from the development of new, innovative local transport projects that will be delivered by communities to meet their own needs. That is not all. We will investigate what can be done to bring together aspects of rural transport, rural development and social inclusion to provide the maximum support for accessible rural services. We are also helping lifeline services by providing the largest-ever financial support for Caledonian MacBrayne, northern isles ferries and Highlands and Islands Airports Ltd. We are building two new ferry vessels for CalMac at a cost of £20 million. Furthermore, next year we will introduce our integrated transport bill, which will contain a balanced package of measures to improve Scotland's transport services, as Mr Tosh suggested should be done. Our proposals on charging have recently provoked a fair amount of argument. However, I hope that the debate is now coming back to earth and that we can have a serious and realistic discussion about tackling the growing problems of congestion and air quality in our cities and in our vital transport arteries. We are not doctrinaire; we will listen and take the consultation seriously.", "EditedTextHTML": "We are indeed making representations to the UK Treasury through the correct channels.

This year, we are introducing a voluntary scheme that will provide free travel for blind people on bus and rail services. We will spend £18 million over three years to encourage freight on to rail—I welcome Mr Tosh's support for that measure. Only last week, we allocated money to LAW Mining in New Cumnock for that purpose and, on Monday, I was in Grangemouth with Lord Macdonald to announce our largest-ever award for freight road-to-rail transfer.

We are also addressing distinct issues in Scotland's rural areas. We are committed to £14 million of new investment over the next three years. Following representations from rural communities, this year we have added more to the pot for rural petrol stations to make sure that people have access to petrol in those areas. Yesterday, I announced 21 community transport awards totalling almost £500,000. From Orkney and Shetland to the Borders, rural Scotland will benefit from the development of new, innovative local transport projects that will be delivered by communities to meet their own needs.

That is not all. We will investigate what can be done to bring together aspects of rural transport,

rural development and social inclusion to provide the maximum support for accessible rural services.

We are also helping lifeline services by providing the largest-ever financial support for Caledonian MacBrayne, northern isles ferries and Highlands and Islands Airports Ltd. We are building two new ferry vessels for CalMac at a cost of £20 million. Furthermore, next year we will introduce our integrated transport bill, which will contain a balanced package of measures to improve Scotland's transport services, as Mr Tosh suggested should be done.

Our proposals on charging have recently provoked a fair amount of argument. However, I hope that the debate is now coming back to earth and that we can have a serious and realistic discussion about tackling the growing problems of congestion and air quality in our cities and in our vital transport arteries. We are not doctrinaire; we will listen and take the consultation seriously.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:05.8270026+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C707595", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 108.0, "ContributionID": 707595, "EditedText": "That is the best intervention we have had all morning. We are not doctrinaire. The whole point of our transport strategy is to consult people. We have asked a number of questions in the transport consultation document and I await views with interest. I find ridiculous the Conservative proposal to cut short the debate and wait for a better climate before we consider the crucial issues before us. We have made it absolutely clear that, should we proceed on the back of our consultative paper, the money that we would receive from road user charging would be entirely additional; it would be new money that would be directly channelled into transport. There would be consultation and motorists would expect—and receive—value for money.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is the best intervention we have had all morning.

We are not doctrinaire. The whole point of our transport strategy is to consult people. We have asked a number of questions in the transport consultation document and I await views with interest. I find ridiculous the Conservative proposal to cut short the debate and wait for a better climate before we consider the crucial issues before us. We have made it absolutely clear that, should we proceed on the back of our consultative paper, the money that we would receive from road user charging would be entirely additional; it would be new money that would be directly channelled into transport. There would be consultation and motorists would expect—and receive—value for money.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:05.8270026+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1773E197P503C707825", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26804, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 566.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26805, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "QuestionHeading": "Domestic Violence", "QuestionHeadingID": 26810, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 600.0, "DisplayOrder": 600.0, "ID": 26810, "ParentID": 26805 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hyslop, Fiona", "ID": 1773, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona Hyslop", "SpeakerDisplayName": "6. Fiona Hyslop (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 601.0, "ContributionID": 707825, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it intends to double the number of refuge places for women and their children fleeing domestic violence in Scotland. (S1O-310)", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it intends to double the number of refuge places for women and their children fleeing domestic violence in Scotland. (S1O-310)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:00:34.116328+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1773E197P503C707952", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26832, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 869.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 869.0, "ID": 26832, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hyslop, Fiona", "ID": 1773, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona Hyslop", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona Hyslop (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 879.0, "ContributionID": 707952, "EditedText": "I welcome the additional funding. As a member of the Social Inclusion, Housing and Voluntary Sector Committee, I am still waiting to see a copy of the announcement that was made on Tuesday. That point needs to be raised. There is concern that access to finance for rough sleepers initiatives across the country is through challenge funding. Bidding for funding means that there are winners and losers. Will the minister commit to ending the challenge funding aspect of the rough sleepers initiative?", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the additional funding. As a member of the Social Inclusion, Housing and Voluntary Sector Committee, I am still waiting to see a copy of the announcement that was made on Tuesday. That point needs to be raised.

There is concern that access to finance for rough sleepers initiatives across the country is through challenge funding. Bidding for funding means that there are winners and losers. Will the minister commit to ending the challenge funding aspect of the rough sleepers initiative?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:00:34.116328+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1773E197P503C707954", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26832, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 869.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 869.0, "ID": 26832, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hyslop, Fiona", "ID": 1773, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona Hyslop", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona Hyslop rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 883.0, "ContributionID": 707954, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:00:34.116328+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1773E197P503C707960", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26832, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 869.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 869.0, "ID": 26832, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hyslop, Fiona", "ID": 1773, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona Hyslop", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona Hyslop: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 896.0, "ContributionID": 707960, "EditedText": "I thank Margaret. I recognise that, as the committee's convener, she ensures that we hold collective discussions on this issue. I am sure that she would echo my earlier point, which she made very well during the committee meeting, that announcements such as the one that was made on Tuesday should be made first to the committee. On housing legislation, we must examine seriously the Executive's radical changes, such as the decision to conduct a mass sell-off of council houses without offering people the protection that is required in law for the homeless. Local councils are best placed to deal with the social aspects that the minister mentioned. They are in the lead position to look after our housing interests. The Scottish Executive, and the Minister for Communities in particular, should require the homeless review to be completed by Christmas, and the Executive should introduce legislation in the next three months, rather than in the next nine months. Let the draft bill be published for consideration within that time scale. Let us have a firm commitment. I seek support for this amendment for two reasons. First, we must recognise that homelessness is not just about rough sleeping, regardless of what the Executive says, although rough sleeping is an important problem that must be addressed and the resources are welcome. Secondly, we need housing legislation. If there is one issue on which the people who elected us to this place want us to take action, it is housing. It is a disgrace that we will have to wait until the next millennium for legislation. I move, as an amendment to motion S1M-154, in the name of Ms Wendy Alexander, to leave out from \"the Scottish\" to end and insert \"tackling homelessness is one of the major challenges facing it, that it supports the Rough Sleepers Initiative and welcomes the Scottish Executive's continuing support for it, and that it recognises that rough sleeping is only one aspect of homelessness and that any initiative designed to tackle it can only deal with the reality of rough sleeping not the causes behind it; calls upon the Scottish Executive to make the newly established Homelessness Taskforce a priority and to bring forward early measures to deal with the causes of homelessness, new regulations to help homeless people and new legislative proposals to bring homelessness legislation up to date; believes that Executive time is required for early legislation to deal with homelessness and housing in general, and calls upon the Scottish Executive to bring forward the proposed publishing date of a draft housing bill to the end of 1999.\"", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank Margaret. I recognise that, as the committee's convener, she ensures that we hold collective discussions on this issue. I am sure that she would echo my earlier point, which she made very well during the committee meeting, that announcements such as the one that was made on Tuesday should be made first to the committee.

On housing legislation, we must examine seriously the Executive's radical changes, such as the decision to conduct a mass sell-off of council houses without offering people the protection that is required in law for the homeless. Local councils are best placed to deal with the social aspects that the minister mentioned. They are in the lead position to look after our housing interests. The Scottish Executive, and the Minister for Communities in particular, should require the homeless review to be completed by Christmas, and the Executive should introduce legislation in the next three months, rather than in the next nine months. Let the draft bill be published for consideration within that time scale. Let us have a firm commitment.

I seek support for this amendment for two reasons. First, we must recognise that homelessness is not just about rough sleeping, regardless of what the Executive says, although rough sleeping is an important problem that must be addressed and the resources are welcome. Secondly, we need housing legislation. If there is one issue on which the people who elected us to this place want us to take action, it is housing. It is a disgrace that we will have to wait until the next millennium for legislation.

I move, as an amendment to motion S1M-154, in the name of Ms Wendy Alexander, to leave out from \"the Scottish\" to end and insert

\"tackling homelessness is one of the major challenges facing it, that it supports the Rough Sleepers Initiative and welcomes the Scottish Executive's continuing support for it, and that it recognises that rough sleeping is only one aspect of homelessness and that any initiative designed to tackle it can only deal with the reality of rough sleeping not the causes behind it; calls upon the Scottish Executive to make the newly established Homelessness Taskforce a priority and to bring forward early measures to deal with the causes of homelessness, new regulations to help homeless people and new legislative proposals to bring homelessness legislation up to date; believes that Executive time is required for early legislation to deal with homelessness and housing in general, and calls upon the Scottish Executive to bring forward the proposed publishing date of a draft housing bill to the end of 1999.\"

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:00:47.4219837+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2110E214P424C707682", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gibson, Kenneth", "ID": 2110, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenneth Gibson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Gibson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 288.0, "ContributionID": 707682, "EditedText": "Did that benefit the customers? Did that help the socially excluded? Did that help people who have to travel to work? Did that make timetables more reliable? Did that put more buses on the road? Of course it did not.", "EditedTextHTML": "Did that benefit the customers? Did that help the socially excluded? Did that help people who have to travel to work? Did that make timetables more reliable? Did that put more buses on the road? Of course it did not.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:05:19.2124205+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2110E214P424C707686", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gibson, Kenneth", "ID": 2110, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenneth Gibson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Gibson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 296.0, "ContributionID": 707686, "EditedText": "I am sorry to disagree with Mr Tosh, but as I have already said there has been a 32 per cent decrease in bus use since deregulation. In the year immediately after deregulation there was a 10 per cent decrease in use. That decline continues. There was a 6 per cent reduction in bus passenger journeys last year alone, whereas car use has not increased at all during the past three years. When deregulation commenced, the idea behind competition was that it would lead to better and more frequent services and lower fares. That has not happened. I am sure that we all recall the chaos in towns and cities following deregulation. Town centres and high streets were chock-a-block with buses during the highly profitable rush hour, but services were slashed or abandoned for the rest of the unprofitable day and without the centres. Bus services have never recovered. There is a problem developing bus service infrastructure in the deregulated environment as there is no certainty that operators will use it. Timetables can be changed without notice, leading to a fall in potential users' confidence that a bus will turn up from day to day. In the area covered by Strathclyde Passenger Transport, there are 154 operators, leaving potential users baffled.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry to disagree with Mr Tosh, but as I have already said there has been a 32 per cent decrease in bus use since deregulation. In the year immediately after deregulation there was a 10 per cent decrease in use. That decline continues. There was a 6 per cent reduction in bus passenger journeys last year alone, whereas car use has not increased at all during the past three years.

When deregulation commenced, the idea behind competition was that it would lead to better and more frequent services and lower fares. That has not happened. I am sure that we all recall the chaos in towns and cities following deregulation.

Town centres and high streets were chock-a-block with buses during the highly profitable rush hour, but services were slashed or abandoned for the rest of the unprofitable day and without the centres. Bus services have never recovered.

There is a problem developing bus service infrastructure in the deregulated environment as there is no certainty that operators will use it. Timetables can be changed without notice, leading to a fall in potential users' confidence that a bus will turn up from day to day. In the area covered by Strathclyde Passenger Transport, there are 154 operators, leaving potential users baffled.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:05:19.2124205+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2110E214P424C707692", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gibson, Kenneth", "ID": 2110, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenneth Gibson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Gibson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 308.0, "ContributionID": 707692, "EditedText": "The number of staff employed by bus and coach operators has also fallen—by 15 per cent in 10 years. Bus fares in Scotland have risen by 79 per cent during the past decade, which is 24 per cent above inflation.", "EditedTextHTML": "The number of staff employed by bus and coach operators has also fallen—by 15 per cent in 10 years. Bus fares in Scotland have risen by 79 per cent during the past decade, which is 24 per cent above inflation.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:05:19.2124205+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2110E214P424C707694", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Non-Executive Business: Transport", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26801, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 12.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 12.0, "ID": 26801, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gibson, Kenneth", "ID": 2110, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenneth Gibson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Gibson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 312.0, "ContributionID": 707694, "EditedText": "Can you give me a tick? I have quite a lot to get through.", "EditedTextHTML": "Can you give me a tick? I have quite a lot to get through.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:05:19.2124205+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1783E59P270C707999", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Homelessness", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26832, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 869.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 869.0, "ID": 26832, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Baillie, Jackie", "ID": 1783, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumbarton" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Jackie Baillie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Communities (Jackie Baillie): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 985.0, "ContributionID": 707999, "EditedText": "This debate has highlighted the problems of homelessness in Scotland, from homelessness that we do not see—families sharing houses, friends sleeping on floors—to the most obvious and extreme example of people sleeping in doorways and parks in the cold and the wet, as Lloyd Quinan has described. If this Government is successfully to address the problems of those who are excluded from society, it must address the most extreme form of exclusion, which is exclusion from a home. I recognise Tricia Marwick's deep personal commitment to this issue. I assure her that we recognise that homelessness is much more than rough sleeping. Homelessness is a top priority for this Government. We have set ourselves a tough target: to ensure that, by the end of this parliamentary session, no one has to sleep rough. However, we believe that that is achievable and we are taking action to ensure that it is achieved. That is why we have earmarked £30 million to fund this initiative, and why Wendy Alexander announced yesterday an additional £6 million over the next two years. I welcome the broad support from the SNP for that measure. We are focusing resources on the problems of this most socially excluded group. We are ensuring that all those who are involved with the homeless target their resources in a co-ordinated way and use them to best effect. Rough sleeping is at one end of the spectrum of homelessness. We have set up the homelessness task force to take a comprehensive look at the problem. The task force represents a wide range of experience of tackling the causes and the effects of homelessness. It is important that we not only understand the problems and identify practical measures to address them, but listen to homeless people, as, frankly, they are the real experts. The task force will consider the causes of homelessness, examine current practice and make recommendations for action. We made it abundantly clear that setting up a homelessness task force is not an excuse for inaction. The Government is determined not only to tackle the problem of homelessness, but to do so in a way that is practical, sustainable and, above all, deliverable. It is essential to have input if we are to identify solutions that work and will continue to work. As a number of speakers have said, it will be important to take local authorities with us in all that we do, because local authorities are best placed to address the problem at a community level. A number of local authorities are putting in place strategies to achieve local co-ordination of social work services, housing, and education policy, as well as effective liaison with health services and close collaboration with the voluntary sector.In our broader homelessness strategies, we are drawing on the lessons that have been learned from rough sleeping initiatives. It has been made abundantly clear that we are considering legislative change. Much of the legislation that we have is 20 years old. A number of organisations have already made proposals to the task force for changes. I reiterate my welcome for the SNP's broad support for the Executive on this issue, but I believe that, in its amendment, it has got a number of things wrong. The Government is committed to publishing a draft bill and is committed to bringing forward housing legislation. I say to Fiona Hyslop that it would be foolish to rush to publish a draft bill by the end of the year, as the substance of such a bill is too important to get wrong through insufficient preparation. Let us make sure that we get this right. Homelessness cannot simply be solved by passing legislation. We can ensure that the legislative framework gives homelessness the priority and urgency that it merits, but, please, let us not do so in a piecemeal way; let us tackle this problem comprehensively. In its response to the green paper, Shelter said that it wanted \"an initial six month period identifying and acting on urgent issues, and then a longer phase of up to two years setting out a rolling programme of legislation\". The work of the homelessness task force and the announcement by Wendy Alexander will do just that. I have been told to wind up, so I will use my time effectively. I agree with the Conservatives that the statistics are damning, but those statistics were the result of Conservative policy, as they relate to the period in which the Conservative party was in office. Too much of Scotland had the wrong houses, of the wrong quality and in the wrong places. There were high levels of unemployment and high levels of family breakdown. I am confident that our actions will reduce the incidence of homelessness. However, we are not complacent. In conclusion, our commitment to the prevention of homelessness is absolute. We will assist the member's bill to help people facing house repossession. We have provided additional funding to tackle the root causes of homelessness. Much remains to be done, but there is no doubt that our pledge that no one will need to sleep rough in Scotland by the end of the parliamentary session is a challenging one. We mean to deliver: for the vendors of The Big Issue, whom I have met, for the Edinburgh Cyrenians and for all the homeless people of Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "This debate has highlighted the problems of homelessness in Scotland, from homelessness that we do not see—families sharing houses, friends sleeping on floors—to the most obvious and extreme example of people sleeping in doorways and parks in the cold and the wet, as Lloyd Quinan has described. If this Government is successfully to address the problems of those who are excluded from society, it must address the most extreme form of exclusion, which is exclusion from a home.

I recognise Tricia Marwick's deep personal commitment to this issue. I assure her that we recognise that homelessness is much more than rough sleeping.

Homelessness is a top priority for this Government. We have set ourselves a tough target: to ensure that, by the end of this parliamentary session, no one has to sleep rough. However, we believe that that is achievable and we are taking action to ensure that it is achieved.

That is why we have earmarked £30 million to fund this initiative, and why Wendy Alexander announced yesterday an additional £6 million over the next two years. I welcome the broad support from the SNP for that measure.

We are focusing resources on the problems of this most socially excluded group. We are ensuring that all those who are involved with the homeless target their resources in a co-ordinated way and use them to best effect.

Rough sleeping is at one end of the spectrum of homelessness. We have set up the homelessness task force to take a comprehensive look at the problem. The task force represents a wide range of experience of tackling the causes and the effects of homelessness. It is important that we not only understand the problems and identify practical measures to address them, but listen to homeless people, as, frankly, they are the real experts. The task force will consider the causes of homelessness, examine current practice and make recommendations for action. We made it abundantly clear that setting up a homelessness task force is not an excuse for inaction.

The Government is determined not only to tackle the problem of homelessness, but to do so in a way that is practical, sustainable and, above all, deliverable. It is essential to have input if we are to identify solutions that work and will continue to work.

As a number of speakers have said, it will be important to take local authorities with us in all that we do, because local authorities are best placed to address the problem at a community level. A number of local authorities are putting in place strategies to achieve local co-ordination of social work services, housing, and education policy, as well as effective liaison with health services and

close collaboration with the voluntary sector.

In our broader homelessness strategies, we are drawing on the lessons that have been learned from rough sleeping initiatives.

It has been made abundantly clear that we are considering legislative change. Much of the legislation that we have is 20 years old. A number of organisations have already made proposals to the task force for changes.

I reiterate my welcome for the SNP's broad support for the Executive on this issue, but I believe that, in its amendment, it has got a number of things wrong. The Government is committed to publishing a draft bill and is committed to bringing forward housing legislation. I say to Fiona Hyslop that it would be foolish to rush to publish a draft bill by the end of the year, as the substance of such a bill is too important to get wrong through insufficient preparation. Let us make sure that we get this right. Homelessness cannot simply be solved by passing legislation. We can ensure that the legislative framework gives homelessness the priority and urgency that it merits, but, please, let us not do so in a piecemeal way; let us tackle this problem comprehensively.

In its response to the green paper, Shelter said that it wanted

\"an initial six month period identifying and acting on urgent issues, and then a longer phase of up to two years setting out a rolling programme of legislation\".

The work of the homelessness task force and the announcement by Wendy Alexander will do just that.

I have been told to wind up, so I will use my time effectively. I agree with the Conservatives that the statistics are damning, but those statistics were the result of Conservative policy, as they relate to the period in which the Conservative party was in office. Too much of Scotland had the wrong houses, of the wrong quality and in the wrong places. There were high levels of unemployment and high levels of family breakdown. I am confident that our actions will reduce the incidence of homelessness. However, we are not complacent.

In conclusion, our commitment to the prevention of homelessness is absolute. We will assist the member's bill to help people facing house repossession. We have provided additional funding to tackle the root causes of homelessness. Much remains to be done, but there is no doubt that our pledge that no one will need to sleep rough in Scotland by the end of the parliamentary session is a challenging one. We mean to deliver: for the vendors of The Big Issue, whom I have met, for the Edinburgh Cyrenians and for all the homeless people of Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:13:41.2269066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2110E214P424C707883", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Sep 1999", "ID": 4178 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26804, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 566.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26805, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "QuestionHeading": "Local Government Finance", "QuestionHeadingID": 26823, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 725.0, "DisplayOrder": 725.0, "ID": 26823, "ParentID": 26805 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gibson, Kenneth", "ID": 2110, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenneth Gibson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Gibson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 730.0, "ContributionID": 707883, "EditedText": "I thank the minister for his answer, but I am concerned that the Scottish Executive is complacent. Is the minister aware of the survey by the Forum of Private Business in Scotland, which was released on 12 July, which named and shamed Scottish local authorities that are consistently late payers? Does he know that the survey named and shamed 10 local authorities that pay more than 35 per cent of their external invoices after 30 days? Is he aware that those local authorities are thus open to surcharge under the act, which could, in turn, affect council tax levels, reserves and services? With no central record kept of aggregate external invoicing, is he satisfied that he is in a position to act when necessary?", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the minister for his answer, but I am concerned that the Scottish Executive is complacent. Is the minister aware of the survey by the Forum of Private Business in Scotland, which was released on 12 July, which named and shamed Scottish local authorities that are consistently late payers? Does he know that the survey named and shamed 10 local authorities that pay more than 35 per cent of their external invoices after 30 days? Is he aware that those local authorities are thus open to surcharge under the act, which could, in turn, affect council tax levels, reserves and services? With no central record kept of aggregate external invoicing, is he satisfied that he is in a position to act when necessary?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:10:44.6159122+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2180E179P471C707450", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lochhead, Richard", "ID": 2180, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Lochhead", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Richard Lochhead (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 168.0, "ContributionID": 707450, "EditedText": "I welcome today's debate on the food standards agency. As a member of Parliament for North-East Scotland, I am delighted that the north-east has been chosen as a location for the Scottish Executive's arm of the agency. In welcoming the minister's statement, however, we must not lose sight of the fact that we are talking about only 35 jobs. Yes, it will bring prestige and valuable jobs to the north-east of Scotland, but we should have been talking about the headquarters of the food standards agency coming to Scotland. That would have meant 150 new posts and the bulk of the existing 400 posts being transferred to the north-east. There was a massive campaign to bring the headquarters to the north-east but, as usual, the Government decided to keep its grubby hands on the civil service jobs. I hope that the Scottish Executive will not give to the north-east of Scotland with one hand and take away with the other. I am referring, of course, to the situation at the laboratories that are conducting research into E coli and campylobacter. This morning, I spoke on the phone to the director of the Central Public Health Laboratory in London; the laboratory there is similar to the one in Aberdeen. I was told that the London laboratory is clamouring to get more funding for campylobacter research in England and Wales, and is expanding its sampling regime to cover the whole country because the issue is considered to be of vital importance. Here in Scotland, however, the Scottish Executive is proposing that such research stop altogether. The setting up of a food standards agency has implications for the food industry in the north-east of Scotland. The food industry generates huge income for the north-east and is a massive employer. That is one reason why the agency is to be located in the north-east. We must not allow the new regulations that the food standards agency is likely to introduce to impose a higher financial burden on food producers, particularly primary food producers. We have already seen how pig, lamb and beef producers, as well as fish processors, have taken on a huge burden of charges to meet hygiene and welfare regulations. I would like an assurance from the minister that any future regulations will not impose an even higher financial burden on the food industry and that producers will be given assistance to meet those burdens. Finally, I hope that if the Scottish arm of the food standards agency does go to the north-east— which we would welcome—the 35 jobs it involves will not be just a gesture. We want a change of attitude from the Government, in which civil service jobs are dispersed. I do not want those 35 jobs to be the last to go to north-east Scotland, but to be the beginning of many more.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome today's debate on the food standards agency. As a member of Parliament for North-East Scotland, I am delighted that the north-east has been chosen as a location for the Scottish Executive's arm of the agency.

In welcoming the minister's statement, however, we must not lose sight of the fact that we are talking about only 35 jobs. Yes, it will bring prestige and valuable jobs to the north-east of

Scotland, but we should have been talking about the headquarters of the food standards agency coming to Scotland. That would have meant 150 new posts and the bulk of the existing 400 posts being transferred to the north-east. There was a massive campaign to bring the headquarters to the north-east but, as usual, the Government decided to keep its grubby hands on the civil service jobs.

I hope that the Scottish Executive will not give to the north-east of Scotland with one hand and take away with the other. I am referring, of course, to the situation at the laboratories that are conducting research into E coli and campylobacter.

This morning, I spoke on the phone to the director of the Central Public Health Laboratory in London; the laboratory there is similar to the one in Aberdeen. I was told that the London laboratory is clamouring to get more funding for campylobacter research in England and Wales, and is expanding its sampling regime to cover the whole country because the issue is considered to be of vital importance. Here in Scotland, however, the Scottish Executive is proposing that such research stop altogether.

The setting up of a food standards agency has implications for the food industry in the north-east of Scotland. The food industry generates huge income for the north-east and is a massive employer. That is one reason why the agency is to be located in the north-east. We must not allow the new regulations that the food standards agency is likely to introduce to impose a higher financial burden on food producers, particularly primary food producers.

We have already seen how pig, lamb and beef producers, as well as fish processors, have taken on a huge burden of charges to meet hygiene and welfare regulations. I would like an assurance from the minister that any future regulations will not impose an even higher financial burden on the food industry and that producers will be given assistance to meet those burdens.

Finally, I hope that if the Scottish arm of the food standards agency does go to the north-east— which we would welcome—the 35 jobs it involves will not be just a gesture. We want a change of attitude from the Government, in which civil service jobs are dispersed. I do not want those 35 jobs to be the last to go to north-east Scotland, but to be the beginning of many more.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:06.080283+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C707375", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Wednesday 15 September 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26794, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26794, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 3.0, "ContributionID": 707375, "EditedText": "Before we begin, I should like to inform members that the first act of the Scottish Parliament has reached the statute book. Letters patent signifying Her Majesty's assent to the Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill were recorded in the Register of the Great Seal on 13 September 1999. The printed act will be available shortly, together with explanatory notes.", "EditedTextHTML": "Before we begin, I should like to inform members that the first act of the Scottish Parliament has reached the statute book. Letters patent signifying Her Majesty's assent to the Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill were recorded in the Register of the Great Seal on 13 September 1999. The printed act will be available shortly, together with explanatory notes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2117E79P104C707378", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macdonald, Lewis", "ID": 2117, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lewis Macdonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Lewis Macdonald (Aberdeen Central) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 11.0, "ContributionID": 707378, "EditedText": "I welcome the minister's commitment to the highest standards in food safety research. Does she accept that those in the management of the national reference laboratories on E coli and campylobacter at Foresterhill in my constituency feel that they have been meeting those standards and that they would welcome the opportunity to discuss any supposed problems with those who have been advised that the laboratories should close?", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the minister's commitment to the highest standards in food safety research. Does she accept that those in the management of the national reference laboratories on E coli and campylobacter at Foresterhill in my constituency feel that they have been meeting those standards and that they would welcome the opportunity to discuss any supposed problems with those who have been advised that the laboratories should close?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C707379", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 13.0, "ContributionID": 707379, "EditedText": "I welcome Mr Macdonald's intervention; the issue that he raises is important. I was grateful to have the opportunity to speak to him and other local members about it over recent days. The Scottish Executive received expert advice on the work that is going on in the laboratories on which it took recent decisions in relation to specific contracts. I recognise the importance of the work that is done there and the interest of local members. For that reason, I have asked officials to arrange a meeting between the reference laboratories working group, which is an expert advisory body, and the director of the reference laboratories, so that further discussion can take place. I remind members that the reference laboratories can retender for those contracts at a later date.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome Mr Macdonald's intervention; the issue that he raises is important. I was grateful to have the opportunity to speak to him and other local members about it over recent days.

The Scottish Executive received expert advice on the work that is going on in the laboratories on which it took recent decisions in relation to specific contracts. I recognise the importance of the work that is done there and the interest of local members. For that reason, I have asked officials to arrange a meeting between the reference laboratories working group, which is an expert advisory body, and the director of the reference laboratories, so that further discussion can take place. I remind members that the reference laboratories can retender for those contracts at a later date.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1888E265P358C707382", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morgan, Alasdair", "ID": 1888, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Galloway and Upper Nithsdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morgan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alasdair Morgan (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 19.0, "ContributionID": 707382, "EditedText": "Is the minister saying that the chief medical officer for Scotland is preparing his own report on the ban, or that he is simply accepting the advice of the UK's chief medical officer?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is the minister saying that the chief medical officer for Scotland is preparing his own report on the ban, or that he is simply accepting the advice of the UK's chief medical officer?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C707384", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 23.0, "ContributionID": 707384, "EditedText": "Will the minister assure me that no rash decisions will be taken on the location of the agency? If the agency must be put in place, there are many places where it could be located that must be given careful consideration.", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister assure me that no rash decisions will be taken on the location of the agency? If the agency must be put in place, there are many places where it could be located that must be given careful consideration.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C707385", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 25.0, "ContributionID": 707385, "EditedText": "I will say more about the location of the agency in a moment. We understand the importance of the decision, and I can certainly assure Mr Gallie that the matter has been and will continue to be the subject of careful consideration. First, however, I want to say a little more about where we are on the arrangements for the agency. We anticipate that the agency will come into being at some point in the first half of next year. The recruitment process to select the chairman, board members and senior officers of the United Kingdom agency has started and it is our intention to advertise for a Scottish director later this month. The recruitment process is completely open, national advertisements have appeared in the press and rigorous selection processes are being employed to ensure that we get the best people for the various posts. The new UK-wide agency will give us access to the best scientific advice across the UK. It will avoid unnecessary and costly duplication and will promote consistency of enforcement. It makes sense scientifically and economically and it makes sense for public health for us to work together across the UK on such an important issue. As I indicated earlier, much food law is arrived at on a Europe-wide basis, but there is scope—in the context of Europe and the UK—to tailor our policies and practices to local circumstances to meet Scottish needs. In Scotland, therefore, we will be able to do things differently from the rest of the UK if we feel that it is necessary to do so. The agency will have a separate Scottish arm, headed by its own director and advised by a Scottish food safety advisory committee. The committee will advise ministers and the agency board and will, like the board, publish its advice. The Scottish arm will be responsible for policy advice on all food safety and standards issues. It will also advise on nutrition and will have an important role to play in auditing and monitoring enforcement and in co-ordinating national food emergencies.The agency will, of course, have to consider its future priorities, but in Scotland, given the importance of the livestock and fishing sectors, I am sure that meat and fish hygiene will feature prominently in the agency's programme. Mr Gallie raised the issue of the location of the Scottish arm of the agency, in which there has been significant interest. I want to take the opportunity today to outline our plans on that important issue. In line with our partnership agreement commitment to decentralise government, the First Minister today, in reply to a written parliamentary question, has set out our policy on the dispersal of public service jobs. I can confirm that, where new operations are established or existing activities are reorganised, there will be a presumption in favour of wider dispersal of public service jobs throughout Scotland. In that context, we have given careful consideration to the wide range of possible locations of the new food standards agency executive in Scotland. I have also taken account of the many representations that have been received from MSPs and from other individuals and agencies around the country. Taking into account a wide range of factors— transport links, proximity to ministers, MSPs and the UK agency, links to research and scientific advice, and relocation costs—we have selected two possible candidates for the location of the agency: Dundee and Aberdeen. I am writing to representatives of both cities today to invite them to meet ministers so that we will have an opportunity to hear their cases at first hand and to explore fully and thoroughly the requirements of the agency and how they can best be met. We plan to meet representatives—", "EditedTextHTML": "I will say more about the location of the agency in a moment. We understand the importance of the decision, and I can certainly assure Mr Gallie that the matter has been and will continue to be the subject of careful consideration. First, however, I want to say a little more about where we are on the arrangements for the agency.

We anticipate that the agency will come into being at some point in the first half of next year. The recruitment process to select the chairman, board members and senior officers of the United Kingdom agency has started and it is our intention to advertise for a Scottish director later this month. The recruitment process is completely open, national advertisements have appeared in the press and rigorous selection processes are being employed to ensure that we get the best people for the various posts.

The new UK-wide agency will give us access to the best scientific advice across the UK. It will avoid unnecessary and costly duplication and will promote consistency of enforcement. It makes sense scientifically and economically and it makes sense for public health for us to work together across the UK on such an important issue.

As I indicated earlier, much food law is arrived at on a Europe-wide basis, but there is scope—in the context of Europe and the UK—to tailor our policies and practices to local circumstances to meet Scottish needs. In Scotland, therefore, we will be able to do things differently from the rest of the UK if we feel that it is necessary to do so.

The agency will have a separate Scottish arm, headed by its own director and advised by a Scottish food safety advisory committee. The committee will advise ministers and the agency board and will, like the board, publish its advice. The Scottish arm will be responsible for policy advice on all food safety and standards issues. It will also advise on nutrition and will have an important role to play in auditing and monitoring enforcement and in co-ordinating national food

emergencies.

The agency will, of course, have to consider its future priorities, but in Scotland, given the importance of the livestock and fishing sectors, I am sure that meat and fish hygiene will feature prominently in the agency's programme.

Mr Gallie raised the issue of the location of the Scottish arm of the agency, in which there has been significant interest. I want to take the opportunity today to outline our plans on that important issue.

In line with our partnership agreement commitment to decentralise government, the First Minister today, in reply to a written parliamentary question, has set out our policy on the dispersal of public service jobs. I can confirm that, where new operations are established or existing activities are reorganised, there will be a presumption in favour of wider dispersal of public service jobs throughout Scotland.

In that context, we have given careful consideration to the wide range of possible locations of the new food standards agency executive in Scotland. I have also taken account of the many representations that have been received from MSPs and from other individuals and agencies around the country.

Taking into account a wide range of factors— transport links, proximity to ministers, MSPs and the UK agency, links to research and scientific advice, and relocation costs—we have selected two possible candidates for the location of the agency: Dundee and Aberdeen. I am writing to representatives of both cities today to invite them to meet ministers so that we will have an opportunity to hear their cases at first hand and to explore fully and thoroughly the requirements of the agency and how they can best be met. We plan to meet representatives—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C707386", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 27.0, "ContributionID": 707386, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C707387", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 29.0, "ContributionID": 707387, "EditedText": "Not now.", "EditedTextHTML": "Not now.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1916E38P70C707389", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Ben", "ID": 1916, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ben Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ben Wallace (North-East Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 33.0, "ContributionID": 707389, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1811E172P455C707397", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ullrich, Kay", "ID": 1811, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kay Ullrich", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Kay Ullrich (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 50.0, "ContributionID": 707397, "EditedText": "The sound of a baby crying in the gallery during Susan's speech must have made her feel at home. It was nice to hear it; it is what we mean when we say we are a family-oriented parliament. Our amendment supports the establishment of a food standards agency in north-east Scotland, so we greatly welcome today's announcement. In that respect, our amendment must rank as one of the most effective in history. In the light of the announcement, many members may seek to use the debate to make a pitch for the agency to be sited in their constituencies. However, it is important that we do not use this opportunity to engage in a turf war, as there are other important issues to consider. The SNP supports the establishment of a food standards agency. It is not before time—for nearly three years we have been deafened by the sound of dragging feet. I must express my dismay that, on 23 June, the Parliament returned the responsibility for food standards to Westminster, despite the fact that food standards was a matter that was specifically devolved to this Parliament. It seems incredible that members of this chamber should have decided to surrender a devolved power so quickly to the reserve of Westminster. Unfortunately, those are the facts that we must live with.", "EditedTextHTML": "The sound of a baby crying in the gallery during Susan's speech must have made her feel at

home. It was nice to hear it; it is what we mean when we say we are a family-oriented parliament.

Our amendment supports the establishment of a food standards agency in north-east Scotland, so we greatly welcome today's announcement. In that respect, our amendment must rank as one of the most effective in history. In the light of the announcement, many members may seek to use the debate to make a pitch for the agency to be sited in their constituencies. However, it is important that we do not use this opportunity to engage in a turf war, as there are other important issues to consider.

The SNP supports the establishment of a food standards agency. It is not before time—for nearly three years we have been deafened by the sound of dragging feet. I must express my dismay that, on 23 June, the Parliament returned the responsibility for food standards to Westminster, despite the fact that food standards was a matter that was specifically devolved to this Parliament. It seems incredible that members of this chamber should have decided to surrender a devolved power so quickly to the reserve of Westminster. Unfortunately, those are the facts that we must live with.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C707398", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 52.0, "ContributionID": 707398, "EditedText": "Will the member give way? She has enough time.", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way? She has enough time.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C707400", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 56.0, "ContributionID": 707400, "EditedText": "I am here to represent people. Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am here to represent people. Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C707404", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Goldie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 64.0, "ContributionID": 707404, "EditedText": "I can remember the outbreak and I am proud that I can.", "EditedTextHTML": "I can remember the outbreak and I am proud that I can.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C707412", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 81.0, "ContributionID": 707412, "EditedText": "It would perhaps be helpful for me to say that, between now and the wind-up speeches, members should limit their speeches to five minutes so that I can call everyone who wants to speak. That should be taken as guidance rather than as a rule.", "EditedTextHTML": "It would perhaps be helpful for me to say that, between now and the wind-up speeches, members should limit their speeches to five minutes so that I can call everyone who wants to speak. That should be taken as guidance rather than as a rule.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2140E187P335C707413", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Rumbles, Mike", "ID": 2140, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Rumbles", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Mike Rumbles (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 84.0, "ContributionID": 707413, "EditedText": "I welcome the Executive's commitment, as outlined by the Minister for Health and Community Care, to food safety and the recently announced arrangements for setting up the new food standards agency. As members will be aware, I recently lodged a motion calling on the Parliament to recognise \"that Aberdeen, in the Rowett Research Institute, the Macauley Land Research Institute, the Scottish Agricultural College and its two Universities, has one of the largest concentrations of expertise in food science and food technology industries in Europe, and calls upon the Scottish Ministers to seek to have the Scottish branch of the Food Standards Agency established in the North-East.\" I understand that there was an argument for locating the food standards agency here in Edinburgh, near the decision makers. Thankfully, that debate is now closed. I warmly welcome the presumption on dispersal. I have always believed that Aberdeen and the north-east is without a doubt the best location for the food standards agency, on two main grounds. First, on practical grounds, the food standards agency should be located as near as possible to our food technology experts, so that we can directly benefit from their expertise. The north-east produces 25 per cent of our red meat, white meat and sea food and a third of our food and drink exports. Proximity to an academic and industry cluster would add great value to the agency's work. Secondly—and perhaps more important—on political grounds, by locating an agency such as the FSA outside the central belt, we send a clear political message, which I am delighted to hear today. In the north-east, there is an undoubted perception—true or not—that there is a bias in our operations towards the central belt. What better message could we send to the north-east to show that no such bias exists? The idea of devolving the Parliament's activities by involving all areas of the country in decision-making processes and by taking the committees around Scotland seems to have hit the major difficulty of cost. What could be better than to give the clear political message that we will devolve agencies, such as the FSA, to areas of expertise around the nation? Based on the two factors that I have outlined, the decision about the location of the FSA must be political. I have been greatly heartened by the support that my motion received from all four parties in the chamber and I thank the 20 members who signed it. I particularly welcome the fact that not all of those MSPs represent the north-east, which I hope has also been noted by ministers. I expect that ministers will weigh the chamber's opinion heavily when they reach their final decision. Despite Kay Ullrich's hope that we do not make pitches for our areas, I make no bones about making a case for Aberdeen. Because everybody knows where I stand on the issue, it would be silly of me not to address it. Aberdeen's case to be the site of the FSA is unmistakable and I am delighted that the city has been given a chance to put it directly to Parliament. I thoroughly support the motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the Executive's commitment, as outlined by the Minister for Health and Community Care, to food safety and the recently announced arrangements for setting up the new food standards agency.

As members will be aware, I recently lodged a motion calling on the Parliament to recognise

\"that Aberdeen, in the Rowett Research Institute, the Macauley Land Research Institute, the Scottish Agricultural College and its two Universities, has one of the largest concentrations of expertise in food science and food technology industries in Europe, and calls upon the Scottish Ministers to seek to have the Scottish branch of the Food Standards Agency established in the North-East.\"

I understand that there was an argument for locating the food standards agency here in Edinburgh, near the decision makers. Thankfully, that debate is now closed.

I warmly welcome the presumption on dispersal. I have always believed that Aberdeen and the north-east is without a doubt the best location for the food standards agency, on two main grounds.

First, on practical grounds, the food standards agency should be located as near as possible to our food technology experts, so that we can directly benefit from their expertise. The north-east produces 25 per cent of our red meat, white meat and sea food and a third of our food and drink exports. Proximity to an academic and industry cluster would add great value to the agency's work.

Secondly—and perhaps more important—on political grounds, by locating an agency such as the FSA outside the central belt, we send a clear political message, which I am delighted to hear today. In the north-east, there is an undoubted perception—true or not—that there is a bias in our operations towards the central belt. What better message could we send to the north-east to show that no such bias exists? The idea of devolving the Parliament's activities by involving all areas of the country in decision-making processes and by taking the committees around Scotland seems to have hit the major difficulty of cost. What could be better than to give the clear political message that we will devolve agencies, such as the FSA, to areas of expertise around the nation?

Based on the two factors that I have outlined, the decision about the location of the FSA must be political. I have been greatly heartened by the support that my motion received from all four parties in the chamber and I thank the 20 members who signed it. I particularly welcome the fact that not all of those MSPs represent the north-east, which I hope has also been noted by ministers.

I expect that ministers will weigh the chamber's opinion heavily when they reach their final decision. Despite Kay Ullrich's hope that we do not make pitches for our areas, I make no bones about making a case for Aberdeen. Because everybody knows where I stand on the issue, it would be silly of me not to address it. Aberdeen's case to be the site of the FSA is unmistakable and I am delighted that the city has been given a chance to put it directly to Parliament. I thoroughly support the motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C707419", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bruce Crawford: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 99.0, "ContributionID": 707419, "EditedText": "Will Ms MacLean give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Ms MacLean give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C707421", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bruce Crawford: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 103.0, "ContributionID": 707421, "EditedText": "I had better put my card in.", "EditedTextHTML": "I had better put my card in.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C707422", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 105.0, "ContributionID": 707422, "EditedText": "Yes, you had. If you will jump around from seat to seat you must expect that.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes, you had. If you will jump around from seat to seat you must expect that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C707425", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bruce Crawford: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 111.0, "ContributionID": 707425, "EditedText": "I apologise.", "EditedTextHTML": "I apologise.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1807E84P267C707432", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Maclean, Kate", "ID": 1807, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dundee West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kate Maclean", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Kate MacLean: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 125.0, "ContributionID": 707432, "EditedText": "Thank you. As well as the Scottish Crop Research Institute, Dundee has the scientific and medical research bases provided by both of Dundee's universities and by Ninewells hospital. They are situated within a few miles of each other and that would ensure that the agency has immediate access to respected world leaders in food and technology, as well as to the benefit of the close collaboration that exists between the universities in Dundee and the food industry. By placing a high priority on food standards, Dundee City Council has been recognised as a local authority leader. Professor Pennington said: \"Dundee is pretty well at the top of the table and Aberdeen at the bottom. I know local authorities are under pressure, but I imagine that the social problems of Dundee are greater than Aberdeen.\" I think that he was probably referring to resources. Having said that, I am not criticising Aberdeen as a location. Had more than two locations been shortleeted, I would have been happy for Aberdeen, if Dundee was unsuccessful. Finally, I will take off my parochial hat and put on my equal opportunities hat. The minister mentioned recruitment and I realise that she may only be responsible for the appointment of the first director of the food standards executive body and that the FSA may be responsible for subsequent appointments. None the less, I urge the minister— although she is not here, I will urge her when I next see her—to bring any pressure to bear that she can in order to ensure that proper consideration is given to equal opportunities when such public appointments are made. There are very worrying inequalities in the make-up of public bodies, and as we are starting with a clean slate, so to speak, we are presented with an ideal opportunity to start to try to redress that situation. Obviously, the best people for the jobs should be appointed. However, I have no reason to believe that the best people for the jobs should not represent a reasonable cross-section of the population of Scotland. I warmly welcome the minister's announcement today, and I am happy to support her motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you. As well as the Scottish Crop Research Institute, Dundee has the scientific and medical research bases provided by both of Dundee's universities and by Ninewells hospital. They are situated within a few miles of each other and that would ensure that the agency has immediate access to respected world leaders in food and technology, as well as to the benefit of the close collaboration that exists between the universities in Dundee and the food industry.

By placing a high priority on food standards, Dundee City Council has been recognised as a local authority leader. Professor Pennington said:

\"Dundee is pretty well at the top of the table and Aberdeen at the bottom. I know local authorities are under pressure, but I imagine that the social problems of Dundee are greater than Aberdeen.\"

I think that he was probably referring to resources. Having said that, I am not criticising Aberdeen as a location. Had more than two locations been shortleeted, I would have been happy for Aberdeen, if Dundee was unsuccessful.

Finally, I will take off my parochial hat and put on my equal opportunities hat. The minister mentioned recruitment and I realise that she may only be responsible for the appointment of the first director of the food standards executive body and that the FSA may be responsible for subsequent appointments. None the less, I urge the minister— although she is not here, I will urge her when I next see her—to bring any pressure to bear that she can in order to ensure that proper consideration is given to equal opportunities when such public appointments are made.

There are very worrying inequalities in the make-up of public bodies, and as we are starting with a clean slate, so to speak, we are presented with an ideal opportunity to start to try to redress

that situation. Obviously, the best people for the jobs should be appointed. However, I have no reason to believe that the best people for the jobs should not represent a reasonable cross-section of the population of Scotland.

I warmly welcome the minister's announcement today, and I am happy to support her motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1926E190P479C707436", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Adam, Brian", "ID": 1926, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Adam", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Brian Adam: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 135.0, "ContributionID": 707436, "EditedText": "Dr Murray referred to the need to examine medical and scientific evidence. In the responses from the Executive on the beef-on-the-bone ban, the advice of the chief medical officer is regularly quoted to us. Does Dr Murray agree that it is not only a medical matter, it is also a scientific matter and that it would be useful to approach the chief scientist to discover what element of risk is involved? The assessment of risk is a key aspect of the issue and it is a scientific matter as much as a medical matter.", "EditedTextHTML": "Dr Murray referred to the need to examine medical and scientific evidence. In the responses from the Executive on the beef-on-the-bone ban, the advice of the chief medical officer is regularly quoted to us. Does Dr Murray agree that it is not only a medical matter, it is also a scientific matter and that it would be useful to approach the chief scientist to discover what element of risk is involved? The assessment of risk is a key aspect of the issue and it is a scientific matter as much as a medical matter.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1985E207P501C707440", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hamilton, Mr Duncan", "ID": 1985, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Hamilton: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 144.0, "ContributionID": 707440, "EditedText": "Our position is that it should be located in the north-east. It was interesting listening to Ms MacLean as she talked about the league table with Aberdeen at the top and Dundee at the bottom. That must be a first for this season. The exact location is open for debate. It seems odd to try to pin down the SNP on exactly where we wish to locate it, as the Executive has not come to a decision. If Mr Macdonald supports the idea of consultation, as he claims that he does and that that is why he will not support the amendment, it seems odd to criticise us for taking time to consult. What has been missing from this debate is the specific focus on the Foresterhill laboratory that Kay Ullrich's amendment sought. Lewis spoke about that, and was so much in agreement with the amendment that it was almost impossible for him to not back it. Kay Ullrich put a question to the minister—and it was such a good one that the minister has legged it—about the campylobacter issue. Why is it that an expansion of the research facilities in London is occurring at the same time as a reduction in the facilities in Scotland? Someone is getting something wrong. If the evidence in England suggests that more research should be done, more should be done in Scotland as well. Similarly, if it is worth getting rid of the research facilities in Scotland, a lot of money is being wasted in England. Why are we getting such a wide variation in scientific advice? Given that there is such a variation, why is the Scottish Executive certain that its advice is correct and the advice in England is wrong? Kay Ullrich asked that question and we have not had an answer. I hope that Iain Gray will answer when he sums up—I assume that he will sum up as he is the only member of the Executive present. I also hope that he will answer a question about the turnaround times. If he cannot answer today, I hope that he will write to me on the matter soon. Susan Deacon skimmed over the expert advice that she had been given regarding why we had to move from the site in Aberdeen. Her explanation had to do with the service level agreement. It has been noted widely in the press that the turnaround times have not been up to scratch: the target was a 95 per cent turnaround in eight days. We were told that only 89 per cent was being reached and that that meant that other options had to be considered. Will the Executive confirm that those figures date from more than a year ago? If that is true, what monitoring has been done since? What are the monthly percentages like now? Will they confirm that the figures for April this year show a 98 per cent turnaround within eight days? If that last fact is true, what has been said in the press is disingenuous. I would like a specific explanation, too, on the issue of consultation. The idea that the one-off consultation done before last October is adequate and the suggestion that there was no further consultation with the trust cause us a great deal of concern. There had to have been on-going consultation. What was it? If the minister cannot tell me what it was, will he accept that the decision was wrong and undermines the credibility of a Government that claims to be putting food standards at the top of its agenda? We talk, rightly, about the need to restore public confidence. That will happen only if we invest properly and the public believes that the Government is taking food safety seriously. I welcome the moves that have been made today but they do not tie in with the announcement earlier in the week. That is why the amendment deals specifically with the facilities that were available and are available no longer. Perhaps the Executive needs to justify itself in relation to that case.", "EditedTextHTML": "Our position is that it should be located in the north-east. It was interesting listening to Ms MacLean as she talked about the league table with Aberdeen at the top and Dundee at the bottom. That must be a first for this season. The exact location is open for debate. It seems odd to try to pin down the SNP on exactly where we wish to locate it, as the Executive has not come to a decision. If Mr Macdonald supports the idea of consultation, as he claims that he does and that that is why he will not support the amendment, it seems odd to criticise us for taking time to consult.

What has been missing from this debate is the specific focus on the Foresterhill laboratory that Kay Ullrich's amendment sought. Lewis spoke about that, and was so much in agreement with the amendment that it was almost impossible for him to not back it.

Kay Ullrich put a question to the minister—and it was such a good one that the minister has legged it—about the campylobacter issue. Why is it that an expansion of the research facilities in London is occurring at the same time as a reduction in the facilities in Scotland? Someone is getting something wrong. If the evidence in England suggests that more research should be done, more should be done in Scotland as well. Similarly, if it is worth getting rid of the research facilities in Scotland, a lot of money is being wasted in England.

Why are we getting such a wide variation in scientific advice? Given that there is such a variation, why is the Scottish Executive certain that its advice is correct and the advice in England is wrong? Kay Ullrich asked that question and we have not had an answer. I hope that Iain Gray will answer when he sums up—I assume that he will sum up as he is the only member of the Executive present. I also hope that he will answer a question about the turnaround times. If he cannot answer today, I hope that he will write to me on the matter soon.

Susan Deacon skimmed over the expert advice that she had been given regarding why we had to move from the site in Aberdeen. Her explanation had to do with the service level agreement. It has been noted widely in the press that the turnaround times have not been up to scratch: the target was a 95 per cent turnaround in eight days. We were told that only 89 per cent was being reached and that that meant that other options had to be considered.

Will the Executive confirm that those figures date from more than a year ago? If that is true, what monitoring has been done since? What are the monthly percentages like now? Will they confirm that the figures for April this year show a 98 per cent turnaround within eight days? If that last fact is true, what has been said in the press is disingenuous.

I would like a specific explanation, too, on the issue of consultation. The idea that the one-off consultation done before last October is adequate and the suggestion that there was no further consultation with the trust cause us a great deal of concern. There had to have been on-going consultation. What was it? If the minister cannot tell me what it was, will he accept that the decision was wrong and undermines the credibility of a Government that claims to be putting food standards at the top of its agenda?

We talk, rightly, about the need to restore public confidence. That will happen only if we invest properly and the public believes that the Government is taking food safety seriously. I welcome the moves that have been made today but they do not tie in with the announcement earlier in the week. That is why the amendment deals specifically with the facilities that were available and are available no longer. Perhaps the Executive needs to justify itself in relation to that case.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1850E185P354C707441", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Radcliffe, Nora", "ID": 1850, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Gordon" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nora Radcliffe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nora Radcliffe (Gordon) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 147.0, "ContributionID": 707441, "EditedText": "The very fact of a food standards agency is to be welcomed. The monitoring of food safety has to be seen to be independent of departments that are concerned with food production. I also welcome the fact that there is to be a Scottish arm of the agency. I endorse the strong case that Mike Rumbles and others have made for the north-east as the obvious home for the Scottish arm of the agency. I would like it to be in the northern part of that area—Aberdeen or its environs or, indeed, in my constituency. The north-east's office rental costs are competitive compared with those in the central belt. That might be kept in mind when other agencies are being relocated. On the subject of money, thank goodness the idea of a £90 levy on food businesses has been abandoned. It flew in the face of natural justice and common sense and would have placed a disproportionate share of the burden on smaller outlets, local shops and vulnerable village services. It is important that the food standards agency is seen to be independent and that the public and the industry have confidence in that independence, which could have been compromised if the monitoring body had been funded by the industry it is to monitor. Costs associated with the food standards agency could not be borne by our primary producers. The reasons for that have emerged in a number of speeches today. Food safety is a health matter, and Liberal Democrats have argued that the agency should be funded from general taxation. I welcome the agency. Its work will underpin and confirm the very high standards of the food industry in Scotland and enable us to market our produce with confidence. I support the motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "The very fact of a food standards agency is to be welcomed. The monitoring of food safety has to be seen to be independent of departments that are concerned

with food production. I also welcome the fact that there is to be a Scottish arm of the agency.

I endorse the strong case that Mike Rumbles and others have made for the north-east as the obvious home for the Scottish arm of the agency. I would like it to be in the northern part of that area—Aberdeen or its environs or, indeed, in my constituency. The north-east's office rental costs are competitive compared with those in the central belt. That might be kept in mind when other agencies are being relocated.

On the subject of money, thank goodness the idea of a £90 levy on food businesses has been abandoned. It flew in the face of natural justice and common sense and would have placed a disproportionate share of the burden on smaller outlets, local shops and vulnerable village services.

It is important that the food standards agency is seen to be independent and that the public and the industry have confidence in that independence, which could have been compromised if the monitoring body had been funded by the industry it is to monitor.

Costs associated with the food standards agency could not be borne by our primary producers. The reasons for that have emerged in a number of speeches today.

Food safety is a health matter, and Liberal Democrats have argued that the agency should be funded from general taxation. I welcome the agency. Its work will underpin and confirm the very high standards of the food industry in Scotland and enable us to market our produce with confidence. I support the motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1931E120P189C707444", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Muldoon, Bristow", "ID": 1931, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Livingston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bristow Muldoon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bristow Muldoon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 154.0, "ContributionID": 707444, "EditedText": "Certainly.", "EditedTextHTML": "Certainly.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1931E120P189C707448", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Muldoon, Bristow", "ID": 1931, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Livingston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bristow Muldoon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bristow Muldoon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 162.0, "ContributionID": 707448, "EditedText": "Absolutely, but in the case of the food standards agency Scotland can benefit from research that is carried out UK-wide. We can establish common rules on food standards throughout the UK and give the UK a stronger voice in Europe when it is arguing for changes in food legislation. Can the SNP cite one benefit of opposing a UK-wide agency and supporting a Scotland-only agency? The other welcome aspect of the food standards agency, after the matter of rebuilding public confidence, is the role that it will play in promoting balanced diets. Susan Deacon has said before that the health of the people of Scotland is a key priority of the Executive. The agency will be an additional tool that will help us to improve diet and lifestyle in Scotland. In welcoming the establishment of the food standards agency, I fully support the motion that Susan Deacon has moved and appeal to the SNP to unite in support of the establishment of that agency to give this Parliament the opportunity to endorse it unequivocally.", "EditedTextHTML": "Absolutely, but in the case of the food standards agency Scotland can benefit from research that is carried out UK-wide. We can establish common rules on food standards throughout the UK and give the UK a stronger voice in Europe when it is arguing for changes in food legislation. Can the SNP cite one benefit of opposing a UK-wide agency and supporting a Scotland-only agency?

The other welcome aspect of the food standards agency, after the matter of rebuilding public confidence, is the role that it will play in promoting balanced diets. Susan Deacon has said before that the health of the people of Scotland is a key priority of the Executive. The agency will be an additional tool that will help us to improve diet and lifestyle in Scotland.

In welcoming the establishment of the food standards agency, I fully support the motion that Susan Deacon has moved and appeal to the SNP to unite in support of the establishment of that agency to give this Parliament the opportunity to endorse it unequivocally.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C707467", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Davidson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 210.0, "ContributionID": 707467, "EditedText": "Will the member clarify whether he was gushing at the minister or at what she recommended?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member clarify whether he was gushing at the minister or at what she recommended?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1821E295P538C707462", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Mrs Margaret", "ID": 1821, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Moray" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Margaret Ewing (Moray) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 197.0, "ContributionID": 707462, "EditedText": "In Dr Simpson's opinion, how many of those committees should be established in Scotland?", "EditedTextHTML": "In Dr Simpson's opinion, how many of those committees should be established in Scotland?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1782E69P279C707464", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Oldfather, Irene", "ID": 1782, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Cunninghame South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Irene Oldfather", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Irene Oldfather (Cunninghame South) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 202.0, "ContributionID": 707464, "EditedText": "I am pleased to be able to support the minister's motion. Protection of our citizens is at the heart of this Parliament's work, and food safety is an integral part of that. The agency is geared towards the protection of our citizens.I wanted to make several points about the benefits for consumers and producers of a food standards agency, but I recognise that time is short and that many of the points have already been made, so I will refer to the location of the agency. I welcome the Executive's commitment to dispersal, which sends a clear message that the Parliament recognises the benefits of devolution to other areas of Scotland, particularly the benefits of dispersing jobs. I am disappointed that the proposal to site the agency in Ayrshire has not been successful, but I congratulate my colleagues in Dundee and Aberdeen. The reasons the minister gave for the shortlist included transport links and proximity to ministers and the scientific community. Perhaps every cloud has a silver lining—that might be a recognition that Ayrshire's transport infrastructure does not compete with that of Dundee and Aberdeen, so we might have high priority in the strategic roads review. I welcome the Executive's commitment to public health and to the agency and congratulate it on the central place that it has given to the public in its plans. I call on members to support the motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am pleased to be able to support the minister's motion. Protection of our citizens is at the heart of this Parliament's work, and food safety is an integral part of that. The agency is geared

towards the protection of our citizens.

I wanted to make several points about the benefits for consumers and producers of a food standards agency, but I recognise that time is short and that many of the points have already been made, so I will refer to the location of the agency.

I welcome the Executive's commitment to dispersal, which sends a clear message that the Parliament recognises the benefits of devolution to other areas of Scotland, particularly the benefits of dispersing jobs. I am disappointed that the proposal to site the agency in Ayrshire has not been successful, but I congratulate my colleagues in Dundee and Aberdeen. The reasons the minister gave for the shortlist included transport links and proximity to ministers and the scientific community. Perhaps every cloud has a silver lining—that might be a recognition that Ayrshire's transport infrastructure does not compete with that of Dundee and Aberdeen, so we might have high priority in the strategic roads review.

I welcome the Executive's commitment to public health and to the agency and congratulate it on the central place that it has given to the public in its plans. I call on members to support the motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2188E70P92C707471", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harper, Robin", "ID": 2188, "PartyName": "Scottish Green Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Green", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robin Harper", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robin Harper: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 218.0, "ContributionID": 707471, "EditedText": "Does Mr Johnstone agree that, if the Transport and the Environment Committee and the Rural Affairs Committee were—between them—to get involved in the GM food discussion by inviting evidence during the coming year, they might take the discussion out of the realm of Frankenstein food, mentioned by Elaine Murray, and put the Scottish Parliament in the lead in the debate?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does Mr Johnstone agree that, if the Transport and the Environment Committee and the Rural Affairs Committee were—between them—to get involved in the GM food discussion by inviting evidence during the coming year, they might take the discussion out of the realm of Frankenstein food, mentioned by Elaine Murray, and put the Scottish Parliament in the lead in the debate?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C707476", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Davidson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 229.0, "ContributionID": 707476, "EditedText": "I declare that my interests are in sheep and beef—the problems with which are being tackled—and not in chickens.", "EditedTextHTML": "I declare that my interests are in sheep and beef—the problems with which are being tackled—and not in chickens.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C707478", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Simpson rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 233.0, "ContributionID": 707478, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2033E106P139C707484", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gray, Iain", "ID": 2033, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Pentlands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Iain Gray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Iain Gray: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 246.0, "ContributionID": 707484, "EditedText": "All the members of the Executive are in close contact with their colleagues in Westminster and can take part in the discussions that take place in the framework of the European Union, as has been explained in a number of previous debates. Exactly such constitutional structures as the FSA ensure that we get the maximum benefit from that arrangement. The fact that we will have a UK-wide agency that can do things differently in Scotland means that we can have our cake and eat it—I say that in response to the point made by Mr Hamilton, who seemed to want both things at once. Richard Simpson asked a question about the Meat Hygiene Service. The arrangement is clear; the Scottish element of the service will be accountable to the Scottish arm of the food standards agency and will be audited by it.", "EditedTextHTML": "All the members of the Executive are in close contact with their colleagues in Westminster and can take part in the discussions that take place in the framework of the European Union, as has been explained in a number of previous debates. Exactly such constitutional structures as the FSA ensure that we get the maximum benefit from that arrangement. The fact that we will have a UK-wide agency that can do things differently in Scotland means that we can have our cake and eat it—I say that in response to the point made by Mr Hamilton, who seemed to want both things at once.

Richard Simpson asked a question about the Meat Hygiene Service. The arrangement is clear; the Scottish element of the service will be accountable to the Scottish arm of the food standards agency and will be audited by it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2140E187P335C707485", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Rumbles, Mike", "ID": 2140, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Rumbles", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Rumbles: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 248.0, "ContributionID": 707485, "EditedText": "Will the minister assure us that the final decision on Dundee or Aberdeen will be based on the merits of the case presented by the two cities, rather than on general issues such as the level of unemployment?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister assure us that the final decision on Dundee or Aberdeen will be based on the merits of the case presented by the two cities, rather than on general issues such as the level of unemployment?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2033E106P139C707486", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gray, Iain", "ID": 2033, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Pentlands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Iain Gray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Iain Gray: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 250.0, "ContributionID": 707486, "EditedText": "I can assure Mr Rumbles that the decision will be based on factors that are important and that are in line with the policy of dispersal of Scottish Executive jobs throughout Scotland, which was announced by the minister today and to which I will return in a moment. Mary Scanlon asked whether the Scottish Executive will be able to overrule the FSA's recommendations. The answer is yes. However, as the FSA's advice will be published, the Scottish Executive will have to be able to justify any such decision to the Parliament. The FSA will not give advice on animal welfare, which will remain a matter for the department of rural affairs. As a result, some of the issues that Mary Scanlon mentioned rightly remain within that department's remit. The FSA will audit local authority food safety functions to ensure that resources are spent effectively and that the required service is delivered. The location of the FSA has been discussed at some length. I thank members for trying their absolute best to avoid making a planned sales- pitch for their locality, although some members managed it better than others. I want to emphasise to Mr Lochhead that this is only the first example of a general policy of dispersal—it is not a one-off involving 35 or 40 jobs. We have made that clear in the written answer that has been made available at the back of the chamber this afternoon. I also want to emphasise the fact that the Scottish Executive has not only talked about dispersing Scottish Executive jobs throughout Scotland, but has done so for the first time. Applause. I stress the point that, although the agency is a welcome development, we are not hanging about waiting for things to happen. That is why we do not support the amendment, which narrows the debate to the two areas that the SNP would, for its own purposes, like to discuss. I guess that Shona is right: that is politics. We want to look at the bigger picture, however, not to narrow down the debate.", "EditedTextHTML": "I can assure Mr Rumbles that the decision will be based on factors that are important and that are in line with the policy of dispersal of Scottish Executive jobs throughout Scotland, which was announced by the minister today and to which I will return in a moment.

Mary Scanlon asked whether the Scottish Executive will be able to overrule the FSA's recommendations. The answer is yes. However, as the FSA's advice will be published, the Scottish Executive will have to be able to justify any such decision to the Parliament.

The FSA will not give advice on animal welfare, which will remain a matter for the department of rural affairs. As a result, some of the issues that Mary Scanlon mentioned rightly remain within that department's remit.

The FSA will audit local authority food safety functions to ensure that resources are spent effectively and that the required service is delivered.

The location of the FSA has been discussed at some length. I thank members for trying their absolute best to avoid making a planned sales- pitch for their locality, although some members managed it better than others. I want to emphasise to Mr Lochhead that this is only the first example of a general policy of dispersal—it is not a one-off involving 35 or 40 jobs. We have made that clear in the written answer that has been made available at the back of the chamber this afternoon. I also want to emphasise the fact that the Scottish Executive has not only talked about dispersing Scottish Executive jobs throughout Scotland, but has done so for the first time. [Applause.]

I stress the point that, although the agency is a welcome development, we are not hanging about waiting for things to happen. That is why we do not support the amendment, which narrows the debate to the two areas that the SNP would, for its own purposes, like to discuss. I guess that Shona is right: that is politics. We want to look at the bigger picture, however, not to narrow down the debate.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1916E38P70C707489", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Ben", "ID": 1916, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ben Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ben Wallace rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 256.0, "ContributionID": 707489, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2033E106P139C707492", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gray, Iain", "ID": 2033, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Pentlands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Iain Gray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Iain Gray: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 262.0, "ContributionID": 707492, "EditedText": "I am about to try to answer that question, but Kay is using up my time. Because we are prepared to take hard decisions, we have decided to retender the sample testing work that is currently being done by Aberdeen reference laboratories. Some members have muddied the waters by, for example, referring to the research lab under Professor Pennington, whose work is not at issue here. We have to be clear about the matter. For years, the reference lab working group, which is an expert group, has had major concerns that have not been addressed.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am about to try to answer that question, but Kay is using up my time.

Because we are prepared to take hard decisions, we have decided to retender the sample testing work that is currently being done by Aberdeen reference laboratories. Some members have muddied the waters by, for example, referring to the research lab under Professor Pennington, whose work is not at issue here.

We have to be clear about the matter. For years, the reference lab working group, which is an expert group, has had major concerns that have not been addressed.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "C707504", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Lead Committees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26797, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 276.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 276.0, "ID": 26797, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 283.0, "ContributionID": 707504, "EditedText": "The Health and Community Care Committee to consider The Food Animal Feedstuffs from Belgium (Control) (No. 2) (Scotland) Regulations 1999 (SSI 1999/33).—Mr McCabe.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Health and Community Care Committee to consider The Food Animal Feedstuffs from Belgium (Control) (No. 2) (Scotland) Regulations 1999 (SSI 1999/33).—[Mr McCabe.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "C707506", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26798, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 284.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 284.0, "ID": 26798, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 288.0, "ContributionID": 707506, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "C707514", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26798, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 284.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 284.0, "ID": 26798, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 297.0, "ContributionID": 707514, "EditedText": "The Health and Community Care Committee to consider The Food Animal Feedstuffs from Belgium (Control) (No. 2) (Scotland) Regulations 1999 (SSI 1999/33).", "EditedTextHTML": "The Health and Community Care Committee to consider The Food Animal Feedstuffs from Belgium (Control) (No. 2) (Scotland) Regulations 1999 (SSI 1999/33).

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C707515", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26798, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 284.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 284.0, "ID": 26798, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 298.0, "ContributionID": 707515, "EditedText": "The third question is, that amendment S1M-147.1, in the name of Kay Ullrich, which seeks to amend the motion on the food standards agency in the name of Susan Deacon, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "The third question is, that amendment S1M-147.1, in the name of Kay Ullrich, which seeks to amend the motion on the food standards agency in the name of Susan Deacon, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "C707523", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26798, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 284.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 284.0, "ID": 26798, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 311.0, "ContributionID": 707523, "EditedText": "That the Parliament endorses the Scottish Executive's commitment to food safety and notes the action taken by the Scottish Executive to improve food standards and to build consumer confidence, including the setting up of the new Food Standards Agency.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament endorses the Scottish Executive's commitment to food safety and notes the action taken by the Scottish Executive to improve food standards and to build consumer confidence, including the setting up of the new Food Standards Agency.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C707524", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26798, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 284.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 284.0, "ID": 26798, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 312.0, "ContributionID": 707524, "EditedText": "The last question is, that motion S1M-137, in the name of Mr Andrew Welsh, be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "The last question is, that motion S1M-137, in the name of Mr Andrew Welsh, be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C707527", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Wigtown", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26799, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 316.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 316.0, "ID": 26799, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 317.0, "ContributionID": 707527, "EditedText": "We move to members' business. The final item today is a debate on motion S1M-86, in the name of Alasdair Morgan, on the subject of Wigtown, Scotland's national book town. The debate will be concluded after 30 minutes without any question being put. Will members who are not staying for this debate please leave quietly and quickly.", "EditedTextHTML": "We move to members' business. The final item today is a debate on motion S1M-86, in the name of Alasdair Morgan, on the subject of Wigtown, Scotland's national book town. The debate will be concluded after 30 minutes without any question being put. Will members who are not staying for this debate please leave quietly and quickly.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "C707529", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Wigtown", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26799, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 316.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 316.0, "ID": 26799, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 320.0, "ContributionID": 707529, "EditedText": "That the Parliament notes the initial success of Wigtown, Scotland's National Book Town, in revitalising the Machars of Galloway since its launch as Book Town in May 1998 and offers its full support for the future growth and development of the Book Town.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament notes the initial success of Wigtown, Scotland's National Book Town, in revitalising the Machars of Galloway since its launch as Book Town in May 1998 and offers its full support for the future growth and development of the Book Town.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1821E295P538C707536", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Wigtown", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26799, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 316.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 316.0, "ID": 26799, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Mrs Margaret", "ID": 1821, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Moray" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Margaret Ewing (Moray) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 338.0, "ContributionID": 707536, "EditedText": "Why?", "EditedTextHTML": "Why?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "C707541", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Wigtown", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26799, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 316.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 316.0, "ID": 26799, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 348.0, "ContributionID": 707541, "EditedText": "Meeting closed at 17:30.", "EditedTextHTML": "Meeting closed at 17:30.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1888E265P358C707538", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Wigtown", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26799, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 316.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 316.0, "ID": 26799, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morgan, Alasdair", "ID": 1888, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Galloway and Upper Nithsdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morgan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alasdair Morgan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 342.0, "ContributionID": 707538, "EditedText": "My question follows on from what was said earlier about the lack of recognition of Wigtown and the south-west, and of the fact that Wigtown is Scotland's national book town. Will the minister undertake to have a word with his colleague who is responsible for transport, to determine whether there is any possibility that that national designation could be recognised by the erection of appropriate signage on the M74 near Gretna?", "EditedTextHTML": "My question follows on from what was said earlier about the lack of recognition of Wigtown and the south-west, and of the fact that Wigtown is Scotland's national book town. Will the minister undertake to have a word with his colleague who is responsible for transport, to determine whether there is any possibility that that national designation could be recognised by the erection of appropriate signage on the M74 near Gretna?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1889E118P162C707539", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Wigtown", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26799, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 316.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 316.0, "ID": 26799, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morrison, Mr Alasdair", "ID": 1889, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Western Isles" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morrison", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Morrison: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 344.0, "ContributionID": 707539, "EditedText": "I would be happy to take that up with my colleague. The wider recognition of Wigtown should be considered. We will include that matter when we consult on our tourism strategy and we will consider how we can—as members have suggested—put Wigtown on the map. We must not only tell the world about Wigtown; we must tell ourselves, the Scots, about Wigtown and its significance. A development plan is now in place, which is providing public support of nearly £300,000 over three years. I understand that the positive relationship between the book town committee and the public support agencies is valued on both sides and I am sure that it is set to continue. No budget is unlimited and no project can ever be approached brandishing an open chequebook. The Scottish Executive relies heavily on the expertise and commercial judgment of the enterprise agencies in assessing project proposals and applications for assistance and in recommending priorities and appropriate support measures. Dumfries and Galloway Enterprise stands ready to consider closely any further development plans that might identify additional benefits to the town and build on the success that has been achieved so far in promoting Wigtown's regeneration. Today's debate is timely, as it takes place close to the start of what is possibly the book town's most ambitious venture so far. The weekend after next—when Alasdair has said he must be elsewhere, although perhaps he should go home—sees the launch of the Wigtown literary festival: an annual event that will not only place Wigtown firmly on the Scottish literary map, but will provide an event of a calibre that is bound to attract visitors from much further afield. We will assess and develop that in our strategy for tourism. I join all members in looking forward to the day when Wigtown achieves its aim of becoming a must-see attraction for booklovers everywhere. We can all play our part in that. I join Alasdair Morgan in commending the motion to the Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "I would be happy to take that up with my colleague. The wider recognition of Wigtown should be considered. We will include that matter when we consult on our tourism strategy and we will consider how we can—as members have suggested—put Wigtown on the map. We must not only tell the world about Wigtown; we must tell ourselves, the Scots, about Wigtown and its significance.

A development plan is now in place, which is providing public support of nearly £300,000 over three years. I understand that the positive relationship between the book town committee and the public support agencies is valued on both sides and I am sure that it is set to continue.

No budget is unlimited and no project can ever be approached brandishing an open chequebook. The Scottish Executive relies heavily on the expertise and commercial judgment of the enterprise agencies in assessing project proposals and applications for assistance and in recommending priorities and appropriate support measures. Dumfries and Galloway Enterprise stands ready to consider closely any further development plans that might identify additional benefits to the town and build on the success that has been achieved so far in promoting Wigtown's regeneration.

Today's debate is timely, as it takes place close to the start of what is possibly the book town's most ambitious venture so far. The weekend after next—when Alasdair has said he must be elsewhere, although perhaps he should go home—sees the launch of the Wigtown literary festival: an annual event that will not only place Wigtown firmly on the Scottish literary map, but will provide an event of a calibre that is bound to attract visitors from much further afield. We will assess and develop that in our strategy for tourism.

I join all members in looking forward to the day when Wigtown achieves its aim of becoming a must-see attraction for booklovers everywhere. We can all play our part in that. I join Alasdair Morgan in commending the motion to the Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1870E181P475C707460", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robison, Shona", "ID": 1870, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Shona Robison", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Shona Robison: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 192.0, "ContributionID": 707460, "EditedText": "As Kate knows, I am already on record as supporting Dundee in its bid to become the Scottish base of the food standards agency. However, if that bid is not successful, I would be happy for the jobs to go to Aberdeen— Kate has said the same thing. We want the jobs to go the north-east, although we all have preferences as to where exactly in the north-east they should go. The victory for the Scottish Parliament is that civil service jobs are being dispersed. I want more jobs to be dispersed. It is a pity that Richard Lochhead's motion on civil service job dispersal fell off the agenda, because that is a crucial debate. The issue relates to far more jobs than the 35 that we are discussing today—jobs that could be dispersed to all areas of Scotland, so that they could benefit from our new constitutional framework.", "EditedTextHTML": "As Kate knows, I am already on record as supporting Dundee in its bid to become the Scottish base of the food standards agency. However, if that bid is not successful, I would be happy for the jobs to go to Aberdeen— Kate has said the same thing. We want the jobs to go the north-east, although we all have preferences as to where exactly in the north-east they should go. The victory for the Scottish Parliament is that civil service jobs are being dispersed. I want more jobs to be dispersed.

It is a pity that Richard Lochhead's motion on civil service job dispersal fell off the agenda, because that is a crucial debate. The issue relates to far more jobs than the 35 that we are discussing today—jobs that could be dispersed to all areas of Scotland, so that they could benefit from our new constitutional framework.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:00:03.1620198+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C707452", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fergus Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 173.0, "ContributionID": 707452, "EditedText": "I am grateful to Elaine Thomson for giving way. What is the statistical likelihood of every one of the 59 Labour MSPs feeling that it is necessary to continue the ban on beef on the bone, given that that should not really be a matter of party politics? Can Elaine tell us whether she feels it is necessary for the ban to continue?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful to Elaine Thomson for giving way. What is the statistical likelihood of every one of the 59 Labour MSPs feeling that it is necessary to continue the ban on beef on the bone, given that that should not really be a matter of party politics? Can Elaine tell us whether she feels it is necessary for the ban to continue?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:00:03.1620198+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1870E181P475C707458", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robison, Shona", "ID": 1870, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Shona Robison", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Shona Robison (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 188.0, "ContributionID": 707458, "EditedText": "I am pleased—and I hope that John is too—that the SNP amendment has persuaded the Scottish Executive that the food standards agency should be based in the north-east. I hope that he will vote for the amendment. It is difficult for the Scottish public to understand why some Labour members will not be voting in favour of the amendment when it calls for exactly what the Minister for Health and Community Care has announced today—maybe that is politics. I am sure that the bids from Dundee and Aberdeen will be of the highest quality and that there will be sound arguments for both locations. Like Kate MacLean, I am a little concerned that Dundee seems to have been a bit slow off the mark and is not, perhaps, lobbying as hard as Aberdeen. The issue is about civil service job dispersal in general. Dundee has the lowest incidence of civil service employment of any Scottish area with a population of more than 40,000. It is fair to say that Aberdeen does not fare much better. There is no doubt that the lack of Government agencies in the area compromises both Dundee's claim to be a regional centre and its ability to fulfil its job creation potential. I do not think that the dispersal of 35 jobs will reverse that, but it would represent a start. Much more needs to be done in terms of the dispersal of civil service jobs. It is to the Parliament's credit that we have managed to hold a mature debate without much of a turf war, although I am sure that Lewis Macdonald and John McAllion will each be striking the other off their Christmas card lists. The final decision will be made on the basis of the quality of the bids.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am pleased—and I hope that John is too—that the SNP amendment has persuaded the Scottish Executive that the food standards agency should be based in the north-east. I hope that he will vote for the amendment. It is difficult for the Scottish public to understand why some Labour members will not be voting in favour of the amendment when it calls for exactly what the Minister for Health and Community Care has announced today—maybe that is politics.

I am sure that the bids from Dundee and Aberdeen will be of the highest quality and that there will be sound arguments for both locations. Like Kate MacLean, I am a little concerned that Dundee seems to have been a bit slow off the mark and is not, perhaps, lobbying as hard as Aberdeen.

The issue is about civil service job dispersal in general. Dundee has the lowest incidence of civil service employment of any Scottish area with a population of more than 40,000. It is fair to say that Aberdeen does not fare much better.

There is no doubt that the lack of Government agencies in the area compromises both Dundee's claim to be a regional centre and its ability to fulfil its job creation potential. I do not think that the dispersal of 35 jobs will reverse that, but it would represent a start. Much more needs to be done in terms of the dispersal of civil service jobs.

It is to the Parliament's credit that we have managed to hold a mature debate without much of a turf war, although I am sure that Lewis Macdonald and John McAllion will each be striking the other off their Christmas card lists. The final decision will be made on the basis of the quality of the bids.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:00:03.1620198+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C707435", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fergus Ewing (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 133.0, "ContributionID": 707435, "EditedText": "Does Elaine Murray consider that there is any justification now for the continuation of the beef-on-the-bone ban? Dr Murray: I am afraid that I am not appropriately medically qualified to give an opinion on that. I would prefer to rely on the advice of the chief medical officer. On the issue of GM foods, which I thought Fergus Ewing was going to ask me about, I also believe that the matter is worthy of separate debate and I hope that this chamber gets the opportunity to do that at some point. Public suspicion is one of the reasons why the setting up of the food standards agency is so important. It will ensure that all future Government activity relating to food will be subject to public scrutiny through an independent arm's-length agency. It is important that it is independent and at arm's length and that the public interest is its first priority. The agency will be responsible for co-ordinating food law enforcement and research into food safety and nutrition. As Alex Fergusson mentioned, it will take a strategic approach to those issues across the food chain. We are all familiar with the old maxim that we are what we eat. Implicit in that is that what we eat is also what was consumed. We have to be aware of the effects of bad practice on other trophic levels, which eventually surface in problems for us. The James report, on which the recommendations for the food standards agency are based, identified the need for the structure of the agency to reflect the constitutional arrangements in different parts of the UK. At the same time, it is necessary for policy and enforcement to be consistent across the UK and Europe. I would like European standards to be levelled up to the standards in the UK. Two members of the UK commission will have specific responsibility for representing Scottish interests at the UK food standards agency. We will have our own food standards agency to advise, amongst others, the Executive on food safety and standards. The Government will not tell the food standards agency what to do; it will be the other way round. Scotland has a tradition of scientific and medical excellence. We have not translated that into successful enterprise as well as we might. Nevertheless, the quality of our academic scientific work has always been respected.", "EditedTextHTML": "Does Elaine Murray consider that there is any justification now for the continuation of the beef-on-the-bone ban? Dr Murray: I am afraid that I am not appropriately medically qualified to give an opinion on that. I would prefer to rely on the advice of the chief medical officer. On the issue of GM foods, which I thought Fergus Ewing was going to ask me about, I also believe that the matter is worthy of separate debate and I hope that this chamber gets the opportunity to do that at some point.

Public suspicion is one of the reasons why the setting up of the food standards agency is so important. It will ensure that all future Government activity relating to food will be subject to public scrutiny through an independent arm's-length agency. It is important that it is independent and at arm's length and that the public interest is its first priority. The agency will be responsible for co-ordinating food law enforcement and research into food safety and nutrition. As Alex Fergusson mentioned, it will take a strategic approach to those issues across the food chain. We are all familiar with the old maxim that we are what we eat. Implicit in that is that what we eat is also what was consumed. We have to be aware of the effects of bad practice on other trophic levels, which eventually surface in problems for us.

The James report, on which the recommendations for the food standards agency are based, identified the need for the structure of the agency to reflect the constitutional arrangements in different parts of the UK. At the same time, it is necessary for policy and enforcement to be consistent across the UK and Europe. I would like European standards to be levelled up to the standards in the UK. Two members of the UK commission will have specific responsibility for representing Scottish interests at the UK food standards agency. We will have our own food standards agency to advise, amongst others, the Executive on food safety and standards. The Government will not tell the food standards agency what to do; it will be the other way round.

Scotland has a tradition of scientific and medical excellence. We have not translated that into successful enterprise as well as we might. Nevertheless, the quality of our academic scientific work has always been respected.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:01:26.0699041+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2180E179P471C707493", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lochhead, Richard", "ID": 2180, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Lochhead", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Richard Lochhead rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 264.0, "ContributionID": 707493, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:08.3322377+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C707395", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bruce Crawford (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 45.0, "ContributionID": 707395, "EditedText": "On a point of order. May I seek your guidance on the written question and answer on the civil service dispersal of jobs that has obviously been both lodged and answered today? I am not sure whether the answer covers issues such as the location of the agency. As a matter of courtesy, it would have been useful for members to have a copy of the answer in front of them so that we knew what it contained.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. May I seek your guidance on the written question and answer on the civil service dispersal of jobs that has obviously been both lodged and answered today? I am not sure whether the answer covers issues such as the location of the agency. As a matter of courtesy, it would have been useful for members to have a copy of the answer in front of them so that we knew what it contained.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C707391", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 37.0, "ContributionID": 707391, "EditedText": "On a point of order.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C707390", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 35.0, "ContributionID": 707390, "EditedText": "I am told that I can take no further interventions because I am winding up. It is in the spirit of open and informed debate that I have set out to members today our plans and actions. We are determined to ensure that from farm to fork and from plough to plate all our people have food that is safe to eat. Public health is my main concern, but I firmly believe that if we take the action that I have outlined today, we will also create a leading edge for Scottish products that will mean that they are second to none. It is on that basis that I ask for Parliament's support. I move,That the Parliament endorses the Scottish Executive's commitment to food safety and notes the action taken by the Scottish Executive to improve food standards and to build consumer confidence, including the setting up of the new Food Standards Agency.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am told that I can take no further interventions because I am winding up.

It is in the spirit of open and informed debate that I have set out to members today our plans and actions. We are determined to ensure that from farm to fork and from plough to plate all our people have food that is safe to eat.

Public health is my main concern, but I firmly believe that if we take the action that I have outlined today, we will also create a leading edge for Scottish products that will mean that they are second to none. It is on that basis that I ask for Parliament's support.

I move,

That the Parliament endorses the Scottish Executive's commitment to food safety and notes the action taken by the Scottish Executive to improve food standards and to build consumer confidence, including the setting up of the new Food Standards Agency.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C707393", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 41.0, "ContributionID": 707393, "EditedText": "You are right. I wanted to make a very important intervention on a matter that affects my constituency. I feel that it was against the spirit of the Parliament, where open discussion should be permitted, that the minister refused my intervention because of the intervention of the chair.", "EditedTextHTML": "You are right. I wanted to make a very important intervention on a matter that affects my constituency. I feel that it was against the spirit of the Parliament, where open discussion should be permitted, that the minister refused my intervention because of the intervention of the chair.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "C707374", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Wednesday 15 September 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26794, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26794, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 2.0, "ContributionID": 707374, "EditedText": "THE PRESIDING OFFICER opened the meeting at 14:30", "EditedTextHTML": "[THE PRESIDING OFFICER opened the meeting at 14:30]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C707376", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 6.0, "ContributionID": 707376, "EditedText": "The first item of business today is a debate on motion S1M-147, in the name of Susan Deacon, on the food standards agency, and on an amendment to that motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "The first item of business today is a debate on motion S1M-147, in the name of Susan Deacon, on the food standards agency, and on an amendment to that motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1926E190P479C707380", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Adam, Brian", "ID": 1926, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Adam", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Brian Adam (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 15.0, "ContributionID": 707380, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C707396", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 47.0, "ContributionID": 707396, "EditedText": "I am not sure when the written answer is being issued, but that is not a point of order for the chair. I presume that it will be published tomorrow.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am not sure when the written answer is being issued, but that is not a point of order for the chair. I presume that it will be published tomorrow.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1811E172P455C707399", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ullrich, Kay", "ID": 1811, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kay Ullrich", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Kay Ullrich: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 54.0, "ContributionID": 707399, "EditedText": "I think that Phil Gallie has had more than his share.", "EditedTextHTML": "I think that Phil Gallie has had more than his share.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1811E172P455C707401", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ullrich, Kay", "ID": 1811, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kay Ullrich", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Kay Ullrich: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 58.0, "ContributionID": 707401, "EditedText": "He has had his answer.Susan Deacon referred today, as she did in the debate on 23 June, to the Scottish arm of the food standards agency. I assure members that the SNP is determined to make that arm a very strong one indeed. That is why we are particularly concerned by the news this week that funding is to be withdrawn from the laboratory at Foresterhill, that the contract for some of the work will be put out to tender and that the rest of the work appears to have been abandoned. That is despite the praise that has been heaped on the work done at Foresterhill, particularly on the E coli 0157 bug, which, as we all sadly know, claimed 21 lives in Wishaw in 1997. Indeed, only two months ago in this chamber, our colleague Lewis Macdonald praised the work of Foresterhill's Professor Pennington. Mr Macdonald said that Professor Pennington's report on E coli had \"set the tone\" for the food standards agency bill. I am sure that Mr Macdonald will be only one among many in this chamber today who will support our amendment. It is easy to overlook the fact that the public health work that has been done by the Aberdeen laboratories has resulted in major watersheds in improvements in public health. The Aberdeen laboratories' capacity has been proven in two major outbreaks in the past 35 years. I am almost old enough to remember the terrible typhoid outbreak in 1964. Laughter. Why do you laugh, o ye of little faith? I am 39 and holding.", "EditedTextHTML": "He has had his answer.

Susan Deacon referred today, as she did in the debate on 23 June, to the Scottish arm of the food standards agency. I assure members that the SNP is determined to make that arm a very strong one indeed.

That is why we are particularly concerned by the news this week that funding is to be withdrawn from the laboratory at Foresterhill, that the contract for some of the work will be put out to tender and that the rest of the work appears to have been abandoned. That is despite the praise that has been heaped on the work done at Foresterhill, particularly on the E coli 0157 bug, which, as we all sadly know, claimed 21 lives in Wishaw in 1997.

Indeed, only two months ago in this chamber, our colleague Lewis Macdonald praised the work of Foresterhill's Professor Pennington. Mr Macdonald said that Professor Pennington's report on E coli had \"set the tone\" for the food standards agency bill. I am sure that Mr Macdonald will be only one among many in this chamber today who will support our amendment.

It is easy to overlook the fact that the public health work that has been done by the Aberdeen laboratories has resulted in major watersheds in improvements in public health. The Aberdeen laboratories' capacity has been proven in two major outbreaks in the past 35 years.

I am almost old enough to remember the terrible typhoid outbreak in 1964. [Laughter.] Why do you laugh, o ye of little faith? I am 39 and holding.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C707402", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Annabel Goldie (West of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 60.0, "ContributionID": 707402, "EditedText": "Will the lady give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the lady give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1811E172P455C707403", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ullrich, Kay", "ID": 1811, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kay Ullrich", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Kay Ullrich: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 62.0, "ContributionID": 707403, "EditedText": "The 39-year-old lady will give way.", "EditedTextHTML": "The 39-year-old lady will give way.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1811E172P455C707405", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ullrich, Kay", "ID": 1811, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kay Ullrich", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Kay Ullrich: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 66.0, "ContributionID": 707405, "EditedText": "Thank you, Annabel; I need your support. As a direct result of the findings of the cause of the outbreak, we now know—as Susan said—the importance of hand washing after a visit to the toilet. Think about it: before 1964, there were no notices in public toilets reminding us to wash our hands, but now that is the accepted norm. As a result of the findings of Pennington and his team during the Wishaw outbreak, cooked and raw meat are no longer displayed together in butchers' shops or on meat counters. Those are two simple measures, but what a difference they have made in terms of improved public health. However, we are told that the Executive is dissatisfied with the quality of the service that is provided at Foresterhill. We are also told that the national reference laboratory on campylobacter—food poisoning—at Foresterhill is to be closed.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you, Annabel; I need your support.

As a direct result of the findings of the cause of the outbreak, we now know—as Susan said—the importance of hand washing after a visit to the toilet. Think about it: before 1964, there were no notices in public toilets reminding us to wash our hands, but now that is the accepted norm.

As a result of the findings of Pennington and his team during the Wishaw outbreak, cooked and raw meat are no longer displayed together in butchers' shops or on meat counters.

Those are two simple measures, but what a difference they have made in terms of improved public health. However, we are told that the Executive is dissatisfied with the quality of the service that is provided at Foresterhill. We are also told that the national reference laboratory on campylobacter—food poisoning—at Foresterhill is to be closed.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C707406", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon (Argyll and Bute) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 68.0, "ContributionID": 707406, "EditedText": "Will the member clarify what the SNP's position is on this issue? We have debated the food standards agency already. As I recall, Kay Ullrich's colleague, Alasdair Morgan, argued against the food standards agency because it was legislated for at Westminster rather than here. Is Kay Ullrich saying that the SNP has changed its mind and that it will vote to support the setting-up of the food standards agency?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member clarify what the SNP's position is on this issue? We have debated the food standards agency already. As I recall, Kay Ullrich's colleague, Alasdair Morgan, argued against the food standards agency because it was legislated for at Westminster rather than here. Is Kay Ullrich saying that the SNP has changed its mind and that it will vote to support the setting-up of the food standards agency?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1811E172P455C707407", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ullrich, Kay", "ID": 1811, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kay Ullrich", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Kay Ullrich: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 70.0, "ContributionID": 707407, "EditedText": "George Lyon should be in at the start. I ask him to stick with it so that he can understand everything that is being said. A Scottish Executive spokeswoman—another mysterious Executive spokesperson with no name—said that there was no evidence that the information that the national reference laboratory on campylobacter produced was of any value to public health. That was despite the fact that campylobacter is the largest single cause of food poisoning in the United Kingdom, despite the fact that 6,000 people in Scotland were infected by it last year, and despite the fact that infection is theoretically preventable if only the research could be done. The Scottish Executive doubts the value of the research that is being done on campylobacter in Scotland, yet, in the same breath, we are told that testing has recently been expanded south of the border at the Public Health Laboratory Service in London, ensuring that a testing service is provided in England and Wales. I hope that the minister will address that in summing up. Why do the minister's advisers appear to be saying the direct opposite of what the advisers of the health minister at Westminster are saying? Will the minister reconsider the plans to close the campylobacter service and to tender on the E coli service? At the very least, will she suspend a decision in order to allow further consultation? Many issues surrounding food safety will be raised in this debate. The minister mentioned genetically modified foods; I feel that that important issue deserves a full debate on its own. Members have lodged a number of motions on GM foods, and I ask the Parliamentary Bureau to consider allowing time for a separate debate. I remind Mr Lyon of what I said at the outset: the SNP welcomes the creation of a food standards agency in Scotland. The agency will be vital in ensuring food safety and public health and will have a major role to play in tackling the nutritional poverty that afflicts so many people in our nation. However, we would be failing in our duty as an Opposition party if we did not hold the Executive to account for decisions that we believe are not in the best interests of the health and well-being of the people of Scotland. We believe that elements of the Executive's proposals fall into that category; I am sure that my colleagues will expand on that. I ask the chamber to consider carefully and to support our amendment. I move amendment S1M-147.1, to leave out from \"endorses\" to end and insert, \"agrees to prioritise food safety in Scotland; supports the establishment of a food standards agency in the North East at the earliest opportunity, and urges the Executive to invest more extensively in research facilities such as Foresterhill laboratory in Aberdeen to maintain Scotland's reputation for international excellence in the investigation into food safety and food poisoning in order to increase consumer confidence and restore essential markets.\"", "EditedTextHTML": "George Lyon should be in at the start. I ask him to stick with it so that he can understand everything that is being said.

A Scottish Executive spokeswoman—another mysterious Executive spokesperson with no name—said that there was no evidence that the information that the national reference laboratory on campylobacter produced was of any value to public health. That was despite the fact that campylobacter is the largest single cause of food poisoning in the United Kingdom, despite the fact that 6,000 people in Scotland were infected by it

last year, and despite the fact that infection is theoretically preventable if only the research could be done.

The Scottish Executive doubts the value of the research that is being done on campylobacter in Scotland, yet, in the same breath, we are told that testing has recently been expanded south of the border at the Public Health Laboratory Service in London, ensuring that a testing service is provided in England and Wales. I hope that the minister will address that in summing up.

Why do the minister's advisers appear to be saying the direct opposite of what the advisers of the health minister at Westminster are saying? Will the minister reconsider the plans to close the campylobacter service and to tender on the E coli service? At the very least, will she suspend a decision in order to allow further consultation?

Many issues surrounding food safety will be raised in this debate. The minister mentioned genetically modified foods; I feel that that important issue deserves a full debate on its own. Members have lodged a number of motions on GM foods, and I ask the Parliamentary Bureau to consider allowing time for a separate debate.

I remind Mr Lyon of what I said at the outset: the SNP welcomes the creation of a food standards agency in Scotland. The agency will be vital in ensuring food safety and public health and will have a major role to play in tackling the nutritional poverty that afflicts so many people in our nation. However, we would be failing in our duty as an Opposition party if we did not hold the Executive to account for decisions that we believe are not in the best interests of the health and well-being of the people of Scotland. We believe that elements of the Executive's proposals fall into that category; I am sure that my colleagues will expand on that. I ask the chamber to consider carefully and to support our amendment.

I move amendment S1M-147.1, to leave out from \"endorses\" to end and insert,

\"agrees to prioritise food safety in Scotland; supports the establishment of a food standards agency in the North East at the earliest opportunity, and urges the Executive to invest more extensively in research facilities such as Foresterhill laboratory in Aberdeen to maintain Scotland's reputation for international excellence in the investigation into food safety and food poisoning in order to increase consumer confidence and restore essential markets.\"

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1807E84P267C707418", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Maclean, Kate", "ID": 1807, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dundee West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kate Maclean", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Kate MacLean (Dundee West) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 97.0, "ContributionID": 707418, "EditedText": "I am sure that the public, the food industry and local authorities will warmly welcome this step towards the setting up of the executive body of the food standards agency—or the Scottish arm, as people seem to be referring to it. It is widely accepted that the establishment of an agency that gives independent advice and information on food safety and standards is crucial if the public is to regain some confidence in the food industry in Scotland—and in local authorities and Government. I suspect that whether there is a food standards agency with executive bodies or an independent Scottish agency does not worry the public much. The important thing is that it is our job in this Parliament to ensure that the Scottish arm does its job and makes decisions that are right for the Scottish people. That is the task that we must take on. I am happy to do that, and confident that we can do that. At this point in the speech I genuinely did not know which cities would be on the shortleet, so I could have gone down the bitterly disappointed road or the warmly welcome road. I am happy to warmly welcome the minister's announcement that Dundee has been placed on the shortlist—even better, on a very short short list. I have raised before the lack of Government jobs in Dundee, and I look forward to the debate on the decentralisation of jobs. As leader of Dundee City Council I campaigned on that issue for many years.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sure that the public, the food industry and local authorities will warmly welcome this step towards the setting up of the executive body of the food standards agency—or the Scottish arm, as people seem to be referring to it.

It is widely accepted that the establishment of an agency that gives independent advice and information on food safety and standards is crucial if the public is to regain some confidence in the food industry in Scotland—and in local authorities and Government. I suspect that whether there is a food standards agency with executive bodies or an

independent Scottish agency does not worry the public much. The important thing is that it is our job in this Parliament to ensure that the Scottish arm does its job and makes decisions that are right for the Scottish people. That is the task that we must take on. I am happy to do that, and confident that we can do that.

At this point in the speech I genuinely did not know which cities would be on the shortleet, so I could have gone down the bitterly disappointed road or the warmly welcome road. I am happy to warmly welcome the minister's announcement that Dundee has been placed on the shortlist—even better, on a very short short list. I have raised before the lack of Government jobs in Dundee, and I look forward to the debate on the decentralisation of jobs. As leader of Dundee City Council I campaigned on that issue for many years.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1807E84P267C707420", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Maclean, Kate", "ID": 1807, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dundee West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kate Maclean", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Kate MacLean: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 101.0, "ContributionID": 707420, "EditedText": "Yes, Bruce.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes, Bruce.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C707423", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bruce Crawford: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 107.0, "ContributionID": 707423, "EditedText": "I have ants in my pants.Thank you, Kate. I was watching your face as others talked about Aberdeen, and your reactions were interesting. You come from a local authority background, and I was interested to hear that, in the minister's introduction, no mention was made of the work done by local authority people on food safety, particularly by environmental health officers. You will be aware that in the previous public expenditure round the Government made education, social work, police and fire priorities. I hope that you will join me in pressing the minister so that, as far as grant-aided expenditure is concerned, he will in future ensure that the food safety arm of a local authority is protected in the same way as other areas of the local authority base.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have ants in my pants.

Thank you, Kate. I was watching your face as others talked about Aberdeen, and your reactions were interesting. You come from a local authority background, and I was interested to hear that, in the minister's introduction, no mention was made of the work done by local authority people on food safety, particularly by environmental health officers. You will be aware that in the previous public expenditure round the Government made education, social work, police and fire priorities. I hope that you will join me in pressing the minister so that, as far as grant-aided expenditure is concerned, he will in future ensure that the food safety arm of a local authority is protected in the same way as other areas of the local authority base.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C707424", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 109.0, "ContributionID": 707424, "EditedText": "I will not join in pressing the minister, but perhaps Ms MacLean will.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will not join in pressing the minister, but perhaps Ms MacLean will.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1807E84P267C707426", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Maclean, Kate", "ID": 1807, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dundee West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kate Maclean", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Kate MacLean: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 113.0, "ContributionID": 707426, "EditedText": "In future, if Mr Crawford does not have his card in, I will not give way and wait for him to get himself organised. Laughter. Bruce Crawford will recall that councils were given additional money to implement the Pennington report. I would support anyone in asking for additional money that is required for public safety and food safety, but some was given. I am delighted that Dundee is being considered as a base for the food standards agency because of the implications that that has for civil service jobs. Also, I genuinely believe that Dundee can put a strong and convincing case when it is given the opportunity to do so. We have been heavily lobbied by various people from Aberdeen, and they put a good case. We have heard less from Dundee, but hopefully we will hear more from it now. In Dundee, we have the Scottish Crop Research Institute.", "EditedTextHTML": "In future, if Mr Crawford does not have his card in, I will not give way and wait for him to get himself organised. [Laughter.] Bruce Crawford will recall that councils were given additional money to implement the Pennington report. I would support anyone in asking for additional money that is required for public safety and food safety, but some was given.

I am delighted that Dundee is being considered as a base for the food standards agency because of the implications that that has for civil service jobs. Also, I genuinely believe that Dundee can put a strong and convincing case when it is given the opportunity to do so. We have been heavily lobbied by various people from Aberdeen, and they put a good case. We have heard less from Dundee, but hopefully we will hear more from it now. In Dundee, we have the Scottish Crop Research Institute.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1807E84P267C707430", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Maclean, Kate", "ID": 1807, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dundee West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kate Maclean", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Kate MacLean: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 121.0, "ContributionID": 707430, "EditedText": "I said that I would not give way and I would prefer it if you did not continue to stand and talk when I say that.", "EditedTextHTML": "I said that I would not give way and I would prefer it if you did not continue to stand and talk when I say that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C707431", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 123.0, "ContributionID": 707431, "EditedText": "Absolutely correct. You should be in the chair.", "EditedTextHTML": "Absolutely correct. You should be in the chair.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1892E34P73C707433", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Fergusson, Alex", "ID": 1892, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Fergusson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Fergusson (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 128.0, "ContributionID": 707433, "EditedText": "I strongly agree with the member—although I cannot remember who it was—who said that this debate should not become an opportunity for everyone to make a pitch for their own areas. I hope that it does not become a bidding competition between Dundee and Aberdeen, particularly as I cannot now make the pitch for Dumfries that I would like to have made; otherwise I would have strongly majored on that aspect. However, Presiding Officer, let me say straight away that, as a farmer, at least in a former life, I think that I speak for the whole agricultural community in that I very much welcome the introduction of a food standards agency, particularly now that it has a UK-wide brief and that its funding will come from central Government. I welcome the agency as a much- needed buffer for an industry whose confidence is at an all-time low, and whose image in the eye of the consumer is at a similarly low ebb. The agency will have an unenviable balancing act to perform: how to bolster the confidence of the consumers in the food that they buy and eat, while simultaneously laying to rest the frustrations of the producers, who feel that they are everyone's target, from the President of the European Commission down to the shoppers who buy their products on a daily basis. In order to achieve that delicate balance, the food standards agency must have the complete confidence of every link in the complex food chain, from producer to consumer alike. Likewise, every link must have complete confidence in the food standards agency. If it is to be successful—and it must be—it must foster a two-way relationship based on mutual trust and mutual benefit, rather than a \"do as we command\" relationship based on the bureaucracy and dictatorship so beloved of this Administration. To do that, it is absolutely imperative that this agency is openly and genuinely independent, both in its thinking and in its make-up. Members of the FSA must be asked to register their interests. It is important that representatives of all those links in the food chain, from plough to plate, are included in the make-up of the board. I seek the Executive's assurance that there will be farmer representation on the board of the new agency. If all that can be achieved, the agency will be judged solely by its actions. However, I am concerned about some possible limitations. Will the FSA be able to ensure that all food products and animal feedingstuffs are accurately labelled, showing a complete list of ingredients—whether or not those ingredients are genetically modified—the country of origin and, where appropriate, the system of production? Will the agency be able to lift the beef-on-the-bone ban without reference to the Executive, which is a perfectly legitimate question, if the ban is still in place? Will it be able to lift the ridiculous regulations requiring ewe carcases to be split and the spinal column removed before export? Incidentally, that regulation was introduced on the results of evidence that can at best be described as spurious. Its introduction has led to many of the problems faced by today's sheep farmers as they face the prospect of culling thousands of ewes that previously were worth good money. Will the agency accept that kitchen practices have their part to play in E coli scares, every bit as much as do manufacturing processes or butcher shops? Can it ensure that imported foods are produced to the same exacting standards as our own, and are adequately labelled to say so? If it can address those issues and others, if it can build confidence between itself and the food chain, and if it can truly remain independent, it can achieve success across the spectrum of the food industry and will be welcomed greatly by all. Despite my disappointment that the agency will not be placed in Dumfries and Galloway, the region in which agriculture has a higher input into the rural economy than any other region in Scotland, I support this motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "I strongly agree with the member—although I cannot remember who it was—who said that this debate should not become an opportunity for everyone to make a pitch for their own areas. I hope that it does not become a bidding competition between Dundee and Aberdeen, particularly as I cannot now make the pitch for Dumfries that I would like to have made; otherwise I would have strongly majored on that aspect.

However, Presiding Officer, let me say straight away that, as a farmer, at least in a former life, I think that I speak for the whole agricultural community in that I very much welcome the introduction of a food standards agency, particularly now that it has a UK-wide brief and that its funding will come from central Government. I welcome the agency as a much- needed buffer for an industry whose confidence is at an all-time low, and whose image in the eye of the consumer is at a similarly low ebb. The agency will have an unenviable balancing act to perform: how to bolster the confidence of the consumers in the food that they buy and eat, while simultaneously laying to rest the frustrations of the producers, who feel that they are everyone's target, from the President of the European Commission down to the shoppers who buy their products on a daily basis.

In order to achieve that delicate balance, the food standards agency must have the complete confidence of every link in the complex food chain, from producer to consumer alike. Likewise, every link must have complete confidence in the food standards agency. If it is to be successful—and it must be—it must foster a two-way relationship based on mutual trust and mutual benefit, rather than a \"do as we command\" relationship based on the bureaucracy and dictatorship so beloved of this Administration.

To do that, it is absolutely imperative that this agency is openly and genuinely independent, both in its thinking and in its make-up. Members of the FSA must be asked to register their interests. It is important that representatives of all those links in the food chain, from plough to plate, are included in the make-up of the board. I seek the Executive's assurance that there will be farmer representation on the board of the new agency. If all that can be achieved, the agency will be judged solely by its actions.

However, I am concerned about some possible limitations. Will the FSA be able to ensure that all food products and animal feedingstuffs are accurately labelled, showing a complete list of ingredients—whether or not those ingredients are genetically modified—the country of origin and, where appropriate, the system of production? Will the agency be able to lift the beef-on-the-bone ban without reference to the Executive, which is a perfectly legitimate question, if the ban is still in place? Will it be able to lift the ridiculous regulations requiring ewe carcases to be split and the spinal column removed before export? Incidentally, that regulation was introduced on the results of evidence that can at best be described as spurious. Its introduction has led to many of the problems faced by today's sheep farmers as they face the prospect of culling thousands of ewes that previously were worth good money.

Will the agency accept that kitchen practices have their part to play in E coli scares, every bit as much as do manufacturing processes or butcher shops? Can it ensure that imported foods are produced to the same exacting standards as our own, and are adequately labelled to say so? If it can address those issues and others, if it can build confidence between itself and the food chain, and if it can truly remain independent, it can achieve success across the spectrum of the food industry and will be welcomed greatly by all.

Despite my disappointment that the agency will not be placed in Dumfries and Galloway, the region in which agriculture has a higher input into the rural economy than any other region in Scotland, I support this motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1985E207P501C707438", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hamilton, Mr Duncan", "ID": 1985, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Duncan Hamilton (Highlands and Islands) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 140.0, "ContributionID": 707438, "EditedText": "It will come as no surprise that I join the, seemingly irresistible, cross-party agreement on welcoming the establishment of the food standards agency. I also welcome the Minister for Health and Community Care's statement at the beginning of the debate that she is committed to an open debate and a lot of this is still up for consultation. I hope that, even although she is absent, she will take some of the lessons from this debate. I was pleased to hear about the establishment of the food standards agency in the north-east. That is a long-standing SNP policy. I must give special mention to Mr Macdonald for his linguistic gymnastics in avoiding supporting an SNP amendment purely on the technicality that the word Scotland did not appear in the amendment. I have the feeling that had the word Scotland appeared, he would have objected to the amendment on the ground that it did not scan well or that the grammar was not up to scratch. I think that we knew what Mr Macdonald was trying to say, but maybe he wants to have another go at it.", "EditedTextHTML": "It will come as no surprise that I join the,

seemingly irresistible, cross-party agreement on welcoming the establishment of the food standards agency. I also welcome the Minister for Health and Community Care's statement at the beginning of the debate that she is committed to an open debate and a lot of this is still up for consultation. I hope that, even although she is absent, she will take some of the lessons from this debate.

I was pleased to hear about the establishment of the food standards agency in the north-east. That is a long-standing SNP policy. I must give special mention to Mr Macdonald for his linguistic gymnastics in avoiding supporting an SNP amendment purely on the technicality that the word Scotland did not appear in the amendment. I have the feeling that had the word Scotland appeared, he would have objected to the amendment on the ground that it did not scan well or that the grammar was not up to scratch. I think that we knew what Mr Macdonald was trying to say, but maybe he wants to have another go at it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C707445", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 156.0, "ContributionID": 707445, "EditedText": "All members on this side of the chamber have fully supported the food standards agency and complimented Susan Deacon on its establishment. There is no amnesia here. We recognise that this is something that must be done.", "EditedTextHTML": "All members on this side of the chamber have fully supported the food standards agency and complimented Susan Deacon on its establishment. There is no amnesia here. We recognise that this is something that must be done.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1768E72P274C707437", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Murray, Elaine", "ID": 1768, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumfries" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Murray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Murray: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 137.0, "ContributionID": 707437, "EditedText": "That is exactly why the food standards agency must be there, to provide that scientific basis for advice that is given to Government. We must use the reputation of our academic work to rebuild trust in our food products and restore their reputation for quality. It is in the interests of Scottish consumers and producers that public confidence in food is restored. I welcome the actions taken by the Scottish Executive to commence that process.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is exactly why the food standards agency must be there, to provide that scientific basis for advice that is given to Government. We must use the reputation of our academic work to rebuild trust in our food products and restore their reputation for quality. It is in the interests of Scottish consumers and producers that public confidence in food is restored. I welcome the actions taken by the Scottish Executive to commence that process.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2188E70P92C707449", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harper, Robin", "ID": 2188, "PartyName": "Scottish Green Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Green", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robin Harper", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robin Harper (Lothians) (Green): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 165.0, "ContributionID": 707449, "EditedText": "I broadly welcome the setting up of the Scottish food standards agency. I am happy about everything that I have heard from the minister so far. I must get this right and address my remarks in the right direction. am slightly unhappy about the amendment, simply because it is a hybrid. It really consists of two amendments: one about greater funding for the Rowett Research Institute in Aberdeen, another about setting up the food standards agency in the north-east. I do not think that members should have to consider hybrid amendments—or hybrid motions either, for that matter. I would have liked the opportunity to debate the two issues separately. Hybrid motions can be confusing and the appropriate authorities should give the matter some attention. I was happy to hear the minister say that she supports clear labelling for genetically modified foods, but that raises further questions. She mentioned European labelling laws and the fact that we will be able to have some input into making them. Three of the major health risks for Scots are heart attacks, smoking too much and being slightly overweight—I could do with taking some exercise myself. Seventy per cent of the food that we eat is processed, and the current system of labelling does not help people to judge whether it will damage their health. Labels are written in tiny letters and nobody really knows what is meant by \"5 per cent fat\" or \"2 per cent fat\". I ask the minister, when she goes to Europe, to plead for much clearer labelling—in large letters and perhaps using a system of colour coding—for the salt, fat and sugar content of foods. We must bear in mind that between 10 and 20 per cent of some foods can be sugar, which is added as a cheap bulking agent. I ask the minister to consider those points. On the whole, however, I very much welcome the setting up of a food standards agency.", "EditedTextHTML": "I broadly welcome the setting up of the Scottish food standards agency. I am happy about everything that I have heard from the minister so far. I must get this right and address my remarks in the right direction. am slightly unhappy about the amendment, simply because it is a hybrid. It really consists of two amendments: one about greater funding for the Rowett Research Institute in Aberdeen, another about setting up the food standards agency in the north-east. I do not think that members should have to consider hybrid amendments—or hybrid motions either, for that matter. I would have liked the opportunity to debate the two issues separately. Hybrid motions can be confusing and the appropriate authorities should give the matter some attention.

I was happy to hear the minister say that she supports clear labelling for genetically modified foods, but that raises further questions. She mentioned European labelling laws and the fact that we will be able to have some input into making them.

Three of the major health risks for Scots are heart attacks, smoking too much and being slightly overweight—I could do with taking some exercise myself.

Seventy per cent of the food that we eat is processed, and the current system of labelling does not help people to judge whether it will damage their health. Labels are written in tiny letters and nobody really knows what is meant by \"5 per cent fat\" or \"2 per cent fat\". I ask the minister, when she goes to Europe, to plead for much clearer labelling—in large letters and perhaps using a system of colour coding—for the salt, fat and sugar content of foods. We must bear in mind that between 10 and 20 per cent of some foods can be sugar, which is added as a cheap bulking agent.

I ask the minister to consider those points. On the whole, however, I very much welcome the setting up of a food standards agency.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1770E82P108C707451", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Thomson, Elaine", "ID": 1770, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Thomson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Elaine Thomson (Aberdeen North) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 171.0, "ContributionID": 707451, "EditedText": "I, too, welcome today's announcement, particularly that Aberdeen is on the shortlist of two. I feel strongly that food should be one of life's joys, but over the past few years it has become a subject of anxiety and fear for many people. The recent move to restore public confidence in food safety by establishing a food standards agency in the UK can only be welcomed. There has been one food scare after another—some based on fact and some on fantasy—involving all kinds of foods from eggs and cheese to beef. There are many different messages about food and health. The messages about whether some foods—for example butter, beef or whisky—are good or bad for us appear to change from week to week. Many people are reaching the stage at which they are saying, \"A plague on both your houses\" and ignoring much of the information about food. Food production and processing is important to Scotland, although the health of many Scots is very poor. I believe that we still hold the world record for heart disease. Food poisoning is constantly on the increase—one in five of us will suffer from it at some point. Food hygiene and food safety are becoming ever more important. Food and its relationship to health require clear messages that are easy to understand and are based on sound science.", "EditedTextHTML": "I, too, welcome today's announcement, particularly that Aberdeen is on the shortlist of two. I feel strongly that food should be one of life's joys, but over the past few years it has become a subject of

anxiety and fear for many people. The recent move to restore public confidence in food safety by establishing a food standards agency in the UK can only be welcomed. There has been one food scare after another—some based on fact and some on fantasy—involving all kinds of foods from eggs and cheese to beef.

There are many different messages about food and health. The messages about whether some foods—for example butter, beef or whisky—are good or bad for us appear to change from week to week. Many people are reaching the stage at which they are saying, \"A plague on both your houses\" and ignoring much of the information about food.

Food production and processing is important to Scotland, although the health of many Scots is very poor. I believe that we still hold the world record for heart disease. Food poisoning is constantly on the increase—one in five of us will suffer from it at some point. Food hygiene and food safety are becoming ever more important. Food and its relationship to health require clear messages that are easy to understand and are based on sound science.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1985E207P501C707456", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hamilton, Mr Duncan", "ID": 1985, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Hamilton rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 183.0, "ContributionID": 707456, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C707454", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr David Davidson (North-East Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 178.0, "ContributionID": 707454, "EditedText": "I must declare a substantial and unique interest: as the only farming pharmacist in the chamber, I have an interest in food production as well as in health. I welcome today's announcement that the Executive intends to disaggregate the activities of the Parliament—like the SNP, we claim that as one of the planks of our manifesto. I hope that the process is carried out fully and that this is not just a gesture, particularly as the issue that has been raised today is that of confidence in the various sectors. I would like to spin that confidence back into Aberdeen and the surrounding area. This week's very sudden announcement about the Foresterhill laboratory, headed by Professor Pennington, caught everybody by surprise; the matter was not handled with kid gloves, as one would expect from the Executive, particularly from such a charming minister. An issue of confidence is at stake for the north-east and food production in Scotland as a whole. Food production must be dealt with safely. I regret that the Minister for Finance has left the chamber. He left his card behind once; now he has found it he has gone off again. I had hoped that he would be here to assure us that everything that has been discussed this afternoon will be adequately funded within the Scottish block. We want confirmation that it is a priority of the Executive to provide the institution with adequate support. We welcome the setting up of the agency, but its branches throughout Scotland will also need support. If the Minister for Health and Community Care is listening, I hope that she will pass on to the Minister for Finance the message that, when he next comes into the chamber, he should give us an indication of the Executive's financial priorities in this matter. Having said that, I welcome the minister's proposals and the fact that there will be a Scottish arm of the food standards agency. I am delighted that my home town is fairly high up the list of candidates for its location. When I left Aberdeen back in the late '60s, as a very young man—we are back on agism today—I witnessed the arrival of the oil industry. At that time, agriculture and food, along with tourism, were the mainstay of the area. Those industries are now faltering and the number—although not the quality—of jobs has fallen. The establishment of the Scottish arm of the FSA in the area would be an important fillip for Aberdeen. However, I wish my colleagues in Dundee all the best in putting up a good show against us.", "EditedTextHTML": "I must declare a substantial and unique interest: as the only farming pharmacist in the chamber, I have an interest in food production as well as in health.

I welcome today's announcement that the Executive intends to disaggregate the activities of the Parliament—like the SNP, we claim that as one of the planks of our manifesto. I hope that the process is carried out fully and that this is not just a gesture, particularly as the issue that has been raised today is that of confidence in the various sectors.

I would like to spin that confidence back into Aberdeen and the surrounding area. This week's very sudden announcement about the Foresterhill laboratory, headed by Professor Pennington, caught everybody by surprise; the matter was not handled with kid gloves, as one would expect from the Executive, particularly from such a charming minister. An issue of confidence is at stake for the north-east and food production in Scotland as a whole. Food production must be dealt with safely.

I regret that the Minister for Finance has left the chamber. He left his card behind once; now he has found it he has gone off again. I had hoped that he would be here to assure us that everything that has been discussed this afternoon will be adequately funded within the Scottish block. We want confirmation that it is a priority of the Executive to provide the institution with adequate support. We welcome the setting up of the agency,

but its branches throughout Scotland will also need support. If the Minister for Health and Community Care is listening, I hope that she will pass on to the Minister for Finance the message that, when he next comes into the chamber, he should give us an indication of the Executive's financial priorities in this matter.

Having said that, I welcome the minister's proposals and the fact that there will be a Scottish arm of the food standards agency. I am delighted that my home town is fairly high up the list of candidates for its location. When I left Aberdeen back in the late '60s, as a very young man—we are back on agism today—I witnessed the arrival of the oil industry. At that time, agriculture and food, along with tourism, were the mainstay of the area. Those industries are now faltering and the number—although not the quality—of jobs has fallen.

The establishment of the Scottish arm of the FSA in the area would be an important fillip for Aberdeen. However, I wish my colleagues in Dundee all the best in putting up a good show against us.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2090E83P266C707455", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAllion, Mr John", "ID": 2090, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dundee East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John McAllion", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr John McAllion (Dundee East) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 181.0, "ContributionID": 707455, "EditedText": "Many members have been anxious that the debate should not turn into a bidding contest between Aberdeen and Dundee. Mr Hamilton was so frightened of offending potential SNP voters in either place that, on principle, he would not decide between the two. I am not that principled—I am quite prepared to say that I want the final decision to go to Dundee. I would like to be given a brief opportunity to explain why I think Dundee should be the final location for the Scottish arm of the food standards agency. Dundee needs the jobs more than Aberdeen. The city has some of the highest poverty indicators of any place in Scotland and the highest poverty indicators in the north-east of Scotland. Dundee also has far fewer civil service jobs per head of population than Aberdeen, Glasgow or Edinburgh. It is simply right that Dundee should get a fair crack at the whip, which it has not had up until now. In the past, Kate MacLean, I and others from Dundee City Council, went to ministers at Westminster and argued about relocating civil service and Government jobs to Dundee. The answer was always that civil servants and their families cannot be moved from their existing locations and jobs—in Edinburgh, Glasgow and Aberdeen and so on—and relocated hundreds of miles away to Dundee. We were told to wait until there was a new agency and new jobs. Now there is a new agency and new jobs and it is Dundee's turn to get some of the jobs. I will deal briefly with some of the benefits that have been talked about by those who support a decision in favour of Aberdeen. They say that Aberdeen is surrounded by rich agricultural land, that it has many of the food producers—food processors and manufacturers—and that most of the fisheries are nearby, so the food standards agency should be there. As I recall, the idea behind setting up a food standards agency was to move things away from producers. The producers were inside the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. Everybody said that they were too close and that we needed to pull the food standards agency away from the producers. It is nonsense to put the food standards agency in among all those producers again and it is a good idea to have it some distance away from them in Dundee. A decision to put the food standards agency in Aberdeen would send the wrong signal. We are told that Aberdeen is the centre for academic excellence in food technology and science. Yes, it is, but so is Dundee. Kate MacLean was right. Is not the Scottish Crop Research Institute a centre for excellence in food technology and science? The University of Abertay Dundee does some of the finest research in the world in food science and technology. Dundee can match Aberdeen. The public analyst who is located in Dundee does some of the best work in maintaining the standards of the food chain. Dundee is an equal. In any case, Aberdeen is only an hour away by road from Dundee. People can get there much quicker by flying. There is now an excellent air service from Dundee to Aberdeen. There is videoconferencing and all sorts of other reasons why the food standards agency does not have to be in Aberdeen and can quite easily be in Dundee. Earlier, I did a television interview with Brian Adam, who I think will wind up for the SNP. In that short interview he first complained that the UK food standards agency, with 400 jobs rather than 40, will not be located in Scotland and then said that he wanted a separate food standards agency in Scotland that is autonomous from the rest of the UK. The SNP cannot have it both ways. If SNP members want a UK food standards agency located in Scotland, they want a UK food standards agency; they cannot want that and a separate, autonomous food standards agency for Scotland. I do not think that they can have it both ways, but SNP members usually do want it both ways on any subject. Far from being worried, as Mr Hamilton is, about the Scottish arm of the food standards agency not following the lead of the bigger agency in England, I want the food standards agency in Scotland to lead the food standards agency in the rest of the United Kingdom.", "EditedTextHTML": "Many members have been anxious that the debate should not turn into a bidding contest between Aberdeen and Dundee. Mr Hamilton was so frightened of offending potential SNP voters in either place that, on principle, he would not decide between the two. I am not that principled—I am quite prepared to say that I want the final decision to go to Dundee. I would like to be given a brief opportunity to explain why I think Dundee should be the final location for the Scottish arm of the food standards agency.

Dundee needs the jobs more than Aberdeen. The city has some of the highest poverty indicators of any place in Scotland and the highest poverty indicators in the north-east of Scotland. Dundee also has far fewer civil service jobs per head of population than Aberdeen, Glasgow or Edinburgh.

It is simply right that Dundee should get a fair crack at the whip, which it has not had up until now. In the past, Kate MacLean, I and others from Dundee City Council, went to ministers at Westminster and argued about relocating civil service and Government jobs to Dundee. The answer was always that civil servants and their families cannot be moved from their existing locations and jobs—in Edinburgh, Glasgow and Aberdeen and so on—and relocated hundreds of miles away to Dundee. We were told to wait until there was a new agency and new jobs. Now there is a new agency and new jobs and it is Dundee's turn to get some of the jobs.

I will deal briefly with some of the benefits that have been talked about by those who support a decision in favour of Aberdeen. They say that Aberdeen is surrounded by rich agricultural land, that it has many of the food producers—food processors and manufacturers—and that most of the fisheries are nearby, so the food standards agency should be there.

As I recall, the idea behind setting up a food standards agency was to move things away from producers. The producers were inside the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. Everybody said that they were too close and that we needed to pull the food standards agency away from the producers. It is nonsense to put the food standards agency in among all those producers again and it is a good idea to have it some distance away from them in Dundee. A decision to put the food standards agency in Aberdeen would send the wrong signal.

We are told that Aberdeen is the centre for academic excellence in food technology and science. Yes, it is, but so is Dundee. Kate MacLean was right. Is not the Scottish Crop Research Institute a centre for excellence in food technology and science? The University of Abertay Dundee does some of the finest research in the world in food science and technology. Dundee can match Aberdeen. The public analyst who is located in Dundee does some of the best work in maintaining the standards of the food chain. Dundee is an equal.

In any case, Aberdeen is only an hour away by road from Dundee. People can get there much quicker by flying. There is now an excellent air service from Dundee to Aberdeen. There is videoconferencing and all sorts of other reasons why the food standards agency does not have to be in Aberdeen and can quite easily be in Dundee.

Earlier, I did a television interview with Brian Adam, who I think will wind up for the SNP. In that short interview he first complained that the UK food standards agency, with 400 jobs rather than 40, will not be located in Scotland and then said that he wanted a separate food standards agency in Scotland that is autonomous from the rest of the UK. The SNP cannot have it both ways. If SNP members want a UK food standards agency located in Scotland, they want a UK food standards agency; they cannot want that and a separate, autonomous food standards agency for Scotland. I do not think that they can have it both ways, but SNP members usually do want it both ways on any subject.

Far from being worried, as Mr Hamilton is, about the Scottish arm of the food standards agency not following the lead of the bigger agency in England,

I want the food standards agency in Scotland to lead the food standards agency in the rest of the United Kingdom.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1807E84P267C707459", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Maclean, Kate", "ID": 1807, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dundee West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kate Maclean", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Kate MacLean: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 190.0, "ContributionID": 707459, "EditedText": "Given that in Aberdeen 10 people per 1,000 hold civil service jobs, while fewer than seven people per 1,000 hold such jobs in Dundee, will Shona Robison support Dundee's bid for the Scottish arm of the food standards agency?", "EditedTextHTML": "Given that in Aberdeen 10 people per 1,000 hold civil service jobs, while fewer than seven people per 1,000 hold such jobs in Dundee, will Shona Robison support Dundee's bid for the Scottish arm of the food standards agency?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C707463", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Simpson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 199.0, "ContributionID": 707463, "EditedText": "I do not think that there is a need for any committees to be specifically established in Scotland, apart from the food safety advisory committee, which is currently being established. I want to refer to two specific committees that are important: the Advisory Committee on Pesticides and the Veterinary Products Committee, which deals with issues relating to veterinary medicine and residues. Those committees—which have not yet been mentioned—are of importance in addressing fundamental issues such as the use of antibiotics and growth hormones in farming. We must establish how they will work and how they will interlock with the food standards agency. The initial challenge for the agency will be the establishment of a risk assessment protocol. The protocol will be important and I hope that we will have an opportunity to debate it. I will put a question to the Executive on that at the end of my speech. As a doctor, food poisoning is the central issue for me. Between 1982 and 1999, the number of reported incidents of food poisoning doubled to a total of 9,000 cases. In England, during the same period, the number increased fivefold, which initially may make it seem as if England's record is much worse. However, what it means is that the number of cases in England has now reached 180 per 100,000, which is the same as in Scotland. That tells us that, in Scotland, our reporting and notification system and our ability to identify cases is already well established. We have been effective and England is catching up. We need to take care of special groups, such as children, pregnant women, the seriously ill, the elderly—particularly those in institutions—and people with allergies. The agency will address that need. I also welcome the minister's announcement on the licensing of butchers and the consideration that is to be given to other catering establishments. The beef-on-the-bone ban has come up a number of times in the debate. I want to reiterate the fact that all 56 Labour members will—I am sure—agree to the lifting of the ban when such medical advice is given. Recently, members from the Scottish National party have been trying to create further fear around the issue of the beef-onthe- bone ban by raising the issue of the disposal of rendered beef and bones, which are stored at two sites in Scotland. If beef on the bone is totally safe and the SNP has no worries about it, why is it raising issues about rendered beef to create fear? Mary Scanlon asked whether anyone has been affected by the beef-on-the-bone ban. I cannot say, but I can say that the parameters for the development of new variant CJD are still extremely wide. We do not know how many cases there will be, but the number is still increasing year on year. Meat on the bone was abandoned because prions are centred in the neural tissue, close to the bone. Cooking is not sufficient to deal with them— they must be dealt with in other ways. The ban on beef on the bone was a reasonable precaution at the time. As soon as the information from the medical officer is that we can lift the ban, it will be lifted. BSE has practically been eliminated by culling cattle that are over 30 months old. It is interesting to note that, in Europe, the number of cases is still rising, whereas in the United Kingdom the number is dropping. The question of the food standards agency being UK-based is important. Why do we not have such an agency in Europe? The answer is that Europe has not had the same food scares, such as the one caused by BSE, which the Conservatives—with all the advice that they received—allowed to develop. That is why we are getting a food standards agency ahead of the rest of Europe. I agree, however, with the Conservatives that there should be a level playing field and that we should persuade the rest of Europe that this is an important issue. I have some final questions. Will there be a separate research fund for Scotland, administered by the Scottish Executive body? Will the Meat Hygiene Service be looked at separately in Scotland, or will it continue to relate to the FSA at a Scottish level? Also, if the Scottish Executive has any proposed modifications to the statement of general objectives and practices, will the Health and Community Care Committee be able to debate them, particularly in relation to the risk assessment protocol?", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not think that there is a need for any committees to be specifically established in Scotland, apart from the food safety advisory committee, which is currently being established.

I want to refer to two specific committees that are important: the Advisory Committee on Pesticides and the Veterinary Products Committee, which deals with issues relating to veterinary medicine and residues. Those committees—which have not yet been mentioned—are of importance in addressing fundamental issues such as the use of antibiotics and growth hormones in farming. We must establish how they will work and how they will interlock with the food standards agency.

The initial challenge for the agency will be the establishment of a risk assessment protocol. The protocol will be important and I hope that we will have an opportunity to debate it. I will put a question to the Executive on that at the end of my speech.

As a doctor, food poisoning is the central issue for me. Between 1982 and 1999, the number of reported incidents of food poisoning doubled to a total of 9,000 cases. In England, during the same period, the number increased fivefold, which initially may make it seem as if England's record is much worse. However, what it means is that the number of cases in England has now reached 180 per 100,000, which is the same as in Scotland. That tells us that, in Scotland, our reporting and notification system and our ability to identify cases is already well established. We have been effective and England is catching up.

We need to take care of special groups, such as children, pregnant women, the seriously ill, the elderly—particularly those in institutions—and people with allergies. The agency will address that need. I also welcome the minister's announcement on the licensing of butchers and the consideration that is to be given to other catering establishments.

The beef-on-the-bone ban has come up a number of times in the debate. I want to reiterate the fact that all 56 Labour members will—I am sure—agree to the lifting of the ban when such medical advice is given. Recently, members from the Scottish National party have been trying to create further fear around the issue of the beef-onthe- bone ban by raising the issue of the disposal of rendered beef and bones, which are stored at two sites in Scotland. If beef on the bone is totally safe and the SNP has no worries about it, why is it raising issues about rendered beef to create fear?

Mary Scanlon asked whether anyone has been affected by the beef-on-the-bone ban. I cannot say, but I can say that the parameters for the development of new variant CJD are still extremely wide. We do not know how many cases there will be, but the number is still increasing year on year.

Meat on the bone was abandoned because prions are centred in the neural tissue, close to the bone. Cooking is not sufficient to deal with them— they must be dealt with in other ways. The ban on beef on the bone was a reasonable precaution at the time. As soon as the information from the medical officer is that we can lift the ban, it will be lifted. BSE has practically been eliminated by culling cattle that are over 30 months old. It is interesting to note that, in Europe, the number of cases is still rising, whereas in the United Kingdom the number is dropping.

The question of the food standards agency being UK-based is important. Why do we not have such an agency in Europe? The answer is that Europe has not had the same food scares, such as the one caused by BSE, which the Conservatives—with all the advice that they received—allowed to develop. That is why we are getting a food standards agency ahead of the rest of Europe. I agree, however, with the Conservatives that there should be a level playing field and that we should persuade the rest of Europe that this is an important issue.

I have some final questions. Will there be a separate research fund for Scotland, administered by the Scottish Executive body? Will the Meat Hygiene Service be looked at separately in Scotland, or will it continue to relate to the FSA at a Scottish level? Also, if the Scottish Executive has any proposed modifications to the statement of general objectives and practices, will the Health and Community Care Committee be able to debate them, particularly in relation to the risk assessment protocol?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1811E172P455C707469", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ullrich, Kay", "ID": 1811, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kay Ullrich", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Kay Ullrich: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 214.0, "ContributionID": 707469, "EditedText": "The better city.", "EditedTextHTML": "The better city.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C707474", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 225.0, "ContributionID": 707474, "EditedText": "Order. I have not been converted to anything.", "EditedTextHTML": "Order. I have not been converted to anything.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1926E190P479C707475", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Adam, Brian", "ID": 1926, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Adam", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Brian Adam: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 227.0, "ContributionID": 707475, "EditedText": "I stand corrected. You will forgive me, as I am learning the procedure. According to David Davidson's declaration of interests, he is a pharmacist farmer. I hope that he is not personally responsible for putting antibiotics in chickens. We do not want that type of pharmacy in farming.", "EditedTextHTML": "I stand corrected. You will forgive me, as I am learning the procedure.

According to David Davidson's declaration of interests, he is a pharmacist farmer. I hope that he is not personally responsible for putting antibiotics in chickens. We do not want that type of pharmacy in farming.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1926E190P479C707477", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Adam, Brian", "ID": 1926, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Adam", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Brian Adam: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 231.0, "ContributionID": 707477, "EditedText": "I thank Mr Davidson for that.I will respond to Mr McAllion's robust remarks. I am glad that he recognises that he is unprincipled. Why is he so thirled at the idea, which is perhaps prevalent in the trade union movement, that it is Buggins's turn—or Dundee's turn—now and that Dundee should get the jobs? That seems to be a very irrational approach to making an important decision. The SNP highlighted the differences in approach north and south of the border to campylobacter because we wish to have an appropriate standard. There are clearly differences between the scientific advice being given to ministers in Westminster and that being given in Scotland. I welcome the minister's suggestion that the reference laboratory working group should meet the appropriate department in Aberdeen, but I do not think that that goes far enough. We ought to examine how such advisory committees work. I welcome Dr Simpson's remarks on the approach to such issues.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank Mr Davidson for that.

I will respond to Mr McAllion's robust remarks. I am glad that he recognises that he is unprincipled. Why is he so thirled at the idea, which is perhaps prevalent in the trade union movement, that it is Buggins's turn—or Dundee's turn—now and that Dundee should get the jobs? That seems to be a very irrational approach to making an important decision.

The SNP highlighted the differences in approach north and south of the border to campylobacter because we wish to have an appropriate standard. There are clearly differences between the scientific advice being given to ministers in Westminster and that being given in Scotland.

I welcome the minister's suggestion that the reference laboratory working group should meet the appropriate department in Aberdeen, but I do not think that that goes far enough. We ought to examine how such advisory committees work. I welcome Dr Simpson's remarks on the approach to such issues.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C707480", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Simpson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 237.0, "ContributionID": 707480, "EditedText": "Is Mr Adam aware that the Government has gone further than simply making the agency independent? It has also said that it will audit the quality of the advice that it is given by committees. The interlocking mechanisms at every level will ensure independence; they will also ensure that the quality of advice is good.", "EditedTextHTML": "Is Mr Adam aware that the Government has gone further than simply making the agency independent? It has also said that it will audit the quality of the advice that it is given by committees. The interlocking mechanisms at every level will ensure independence; they will also ensure that the quality of advice is good.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1926E190P479C707481", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Adam, Brian", "ID": 1926, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Adam", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Brian Adam: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 239.0, "ContributionID": 707481, "EditedText": "I welcome that.I would like the minister to give some specific answers on the position of the laboratory in Aberdeen. There is broad agreement on many other issues and some of the details are being dealt with. A meeting between the reference laboratory working group and the laboratory in Aberdeen would be a first step. A postponement on retendering would at least give us some breathing space. I ask the Scottish ministers to address the specific differences, even among the scientific community, over the importance of campylobacter.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome that.

I would like the minister to give some specific answers on the position of the laboratory in Aberdeen. There is broad agreement on many other issues and some of the details are being dealt with. A meeting between the reference laboratory working group and the laboratory in Aberdeen would be a first step. A postponement on retendering would at least give us some breathing space. I ask the Scottish ministers to address the specific differences, even among the scientific community, over the importance of campylobacter.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2033E106P139C707482", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gray, Iain", "ID": 2033, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Pentlands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Iain Gray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Community Care (Iain Gray): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 242.0, "ContributionID": 707482, "EditedText": "Our purpose in today's debate has been to make it clear that the Executive is serious about food safety and standards. Confidence in the food we eat is a fundamental requirement for the quality of life of our people. As many members have said, that confidence has been rocked in recent years. I say to Mr Fergusson that, as Bristow Muldoon reminded us, it was not any dictatorship in bureaucracy of this Administration that rocked that confidence; it was the BSE catastrophe under the previous Tory Government that wrecked it, and we have had to deal with the consequences ever since. We are committed to rebuilding that confidence, which is why we have presented our strategy to Parliament for open debate. The tone of the debate has been welcome. Much of the debate has, quite properly, been about the food standards agency, because the agency in Scotland is central to our commitment. It is a unique body: it is a repository of expertise; it is authoritative; it can stand above the fray; and it is not tainted—as we heard a moment ago—by any dual role as a result of industry sponsorship. The food standards agency will be able to—and will be seen to—put the protection of the public at the heart of decision making on food safety. I am pleased at the welcome—qualified as it was, but that is understandable—given to the agency by Kay Ullrich and Mary Scanlon. One of the strengths of the agency is that, although it is UK-wide, it will be able to do things differently in Scotland if circumstances indicate that it should and if European Union legislation permits. That set-up has clear advantages for Scotland; the same advantages apply today as they did on 23 June, when we debated this matter before. We will have access to UK-wide scientific expertise, which will avoid costly duplication. We will ensure a share of the research for Scotland. The agency's funding arrangement will mean that members of the Scottish Parliament will have control and that the agency is accountable to them. The Scottish food safety advisory committee will feed information on Scottish issues to ministers, MSPs and the UK food standards agency board, two members of which will be from the Scottish committee. I can tell Mr Fergusson that the committee and the board will, of course, be appointed according to Nolan principles.", "EditedTextHTML": "Our purpose in today's debate has been to make it clear that the Executive is serious about food safety and standards. Confidence in the food we eat is a fundamental requirement for the quality of life of our people. As many members have said, that confidence has been rocked in recent years. I say to Mr Fergusson that, as Bristow Muldoon reminded us, it was not any dictatorship in bureaucracy of this Administration that rocked that confidence; it was the BSE catastrophe under the previous Tory Government that wrecked it, and we have had to deal with the consequences ever since.

We are committed to rebuilding that confidence, which is why we have presented our strategy to Parliament for open debate. The tone of the debate has been welcome. Much of the debate has, quite properly, been about the food standards agency, because the agency in Scotland is central to our commitment. It is a unique body: it is a repository of expertise; it is authoritative; it can stand above the fray; and it is not tainted—as we heard a moment ago—by any dual role as a result of industry sponsorship. The food standards

agency will be able to—and will be seen to—put the protection of the public at the heart of decision making on food safety. I am pleased at the welcome—qualified as it was, but that is understandable—given to the agency by Kay Ullrich and Mary Scanlon.

One of the strengths of the agency is that, although it is UK-wide, it will be able to do things differently in Scotland if circumstances indicate that it should and if European Union legislation permits. That set-up has clear advantages for Scotland; the same advantages apply today as they did on 23 June, when we debated this matter before. We will have access to UK-wide scientific expertise, which will avoid costly duplication. We will ensure a share of the research for Scotland. The agency's funding arrangement will mean that members of the Scottish Parliament will have control and that the agency is accountable to them. The Scottish food safety advisory committee will feed information on Scottish issues to ministers, MSPs and the UK food standards agency board, two members of which will be from the Scottish committee. I can tell Mr Fergusson that the committee and the board will, of course, be appointed according to Nolan principles.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1821E295P538C707483", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Mrs Margaret", "ID": 1821, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Moray" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Margaret Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 244.0, "ContributionID": 707483, "EditedText": "Can Iain Gray say how much influence this Parliament will have on European Union legislation?", "EditedTextHTML": "Can Iain Gray say how much influence this Parliament will have on European Union legislation?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2033E106P139C707490", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gray, Iain", "ID": 2033, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Pentlands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Iain Gray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Iain Gray: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 258.0, "ContributionID": 707490, "EditedText": "No, it is too late.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, it is too late.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1811E172P455C707491", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ullrich, Kay", "ID": 1811, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kay Ullrich", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Kay Ullrich: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 260.0, "ContributionID": 707491, "EditedText": "Will the minister answer the question about Foresterhill?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister answer the question about Foresterhill?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1821E295P538C707495", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Mrs Margaret", "ID": 1821, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Moray" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Margaret Ewing rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 268.0, "ContributionID": 707495, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1906E278P355C707497", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Auditor General", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26796, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 272.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 272.0, "ID": 26796, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Welsh, Andrew", "ID": 1906, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Angus" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Welsh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Andrew Welsh (Angus) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 274.0, "ContributionID": 707497, "EditedText": "The Scotland Act 1998 requires that an Auditor General for Scotland, who is independent of the Parliament and the Scottish Executive, should be appointed by the Queen on the nomination of the Parliament. The post of Auditor General is fundamental to ensuring probity, efficiency, effectiveness and confidence in the system of public finances in Scotland. The duties of the office are set out in the Scotland Act 1998 and are being further delineated in the Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill which is before this Parliament. Under parliamentary standing orders, an extensive interview process was completed by a selection panel that consisted of the Presiding Officer, me—as Convener of the Audit Committee—and four members of the Audit Committee appointed by the Presiding Officer. On the panel's behalf, I am pleased to recommend the appointment of Mr Robert Black who is currently the controller of audit at the Accounts Commission for Scotland. Mr Black brings to this post vast experience, successful auditing expertise and personal attributes that allow us to make the unanimous recommendation that he be appointed as the first ever Auditor General for Scotland. I move,That the Parliament nominates Robert Black to Her Majesty for appointment as Auditor General for Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Scotland Act 1998 requires that an Auditor General for Scotland, who is independent of the Parliament and the Scottish Executive, should be appointed by the Queen on the nomination of the Parliament. The post of Auditor General is fundamental to ensuring probity, efficiency, effectiveness and confidence in the system of public finances in Scotland. The duties of the office are set out in the Scotland Act 1998 and are being further delineated in the Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill which is before this Parliament.

Under parliamentary standing orders, an extensive interview process was completed by a selection panel that consisted of the Presiding Officer, me—as Convener of the Audit Committee—and four members of the Audit Committee appointed by the Presiding Officer. On the panel's behalf, I am pleased to recommend the appointment of Mr Robert Black who is currently the controller of audit at the Accounts Commission for Scotland. Mr Black brings to this post vast experience, successful auditing expertise and personal attributes that allow us to make the unanimous recommendation that he be appointed as the first ever Auditor General for Scotland.

I move,

That the Parliament nominates Robert Black to Her Majesty for appointment as Auditor General for Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "C707498", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Lead Committees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26797, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 276.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 276.0, "ID": 26797, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 277.0, "ContributionID": 707498, "EditedText": "Motions moved,", "EditedTextHTML": "Motions moved,

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "C707499", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Lead Committees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26797, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 276.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 276.0, "ID": 26797, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 278.0, "ContributionID": 707499, "EditedText": "That the Parliament agrees the following designations of Lead Committees—", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament agrees the following designations of Lead Committees—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "C707500", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Lead Committees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26797, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 276.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 276.0, "ID": 26797, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 279.0, "ContributionID": 707500, "EditedText": "The Health and Community Care Committee to consider The Spreadable Fats (Marketing Standards) (Scotland) Regulations 1999 (SSI 1999/34);", "EditedTextHTML": "The Health and Community Care Committee to consider The Spreadable Fats (Marketing Standards) (Scotland) Regulations 1999 (SSI 1999/34);

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "C707501", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Lead Committees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26797, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 276.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 276.0, "ID": 26797, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 280.0, "ContributionID": 707501, "EditedText": "The Transport and Environment Committee to consider The Environmental Impact Assessment (Forestry) (Scotland) Regulations 1999 (SSI 1999/43).", "EditedTextHTML": "The Transport and Environment Committee to consider The Environmental Impact Assessment (Forestry) (Scotland) Regulations 1999 (SSI 1999/43).

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "C707502", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Lead Committees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26797, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 276.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 276.0, "ID": 26797, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 281.0, "ContributionID": 707502, "EditedText": "That the Parliament agrees the following designations of lead committees—", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament agrees the following designations of lead committees—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "C707507", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26798, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 284.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 284.0, "ID": 26798, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 289.0, "ContributionID": 707507, "EditedText": "That the Parliament agrees the following designations of Lead Committees—", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament agrees the following designations of Lead Committees—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "C707508", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26798, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 284.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 284.0, "ID": 26798, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 290.0, "ContributionID": 707508, "EditedText": "The Health and Community Care Committee to consider The Spreadable Fats (Marketing Standards) (Scotland) Regulations 1999 (SSI 1999/34);", "EditedTextHTML": "The Health and Community Care Committee to consider The Spreadable Fats (Marketing Standards) (Scotland) Regulations 1999 (SSI 1999/34);

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "C707511", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26798, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 284.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 284.0, "ID": 26798, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 294.0, "ContributionID": 707511, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "C707513", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26798, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 284.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 284.0, "ID": 26798, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 296.0, "ContributionID": 707513, "EditedText": "The Health and Community Care Committee to consider The Food (Animals and Animal Products from Belgium) (Emergency Control) (No. 2) (Scotland) Order 1999 (SSI 1999/32);", "EditedTextHTML": "The Health and Community Care Committee to consider The Food (Animals and Animal Products from Belgium) (Emergency Control) (No. 2) (Scotland) Order 1999 (SSI 1999/32);

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C707517", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26798, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 284.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 284.0, "ID": 26798, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 302.0, "ContributionID": 707517, "EditedText": "There will be a division.", "EditedTextHTML": "There will be a division.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C707519", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26798, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 284.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 284.0, "ID": 26798, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 305.0, "ContributionID": 707519, "EditedText": "The result of the division is: For 27, Against 64, Abstentions 16.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result of the division is: For 27, Against 64, Abstentions 16.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "C707522", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26798, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 284.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 284.0, "ID": 26798, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 310.0, "ContributionID": 707522, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "C707526", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26798, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 284.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 284.0, "ID": 26798, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 315.0, "ContributionID": 707526, "EditedText": "That the Parliament nominates Robert Black to Her Majesty for appointment as Auditor General for Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament nominates Robert Black to Her Majesty for appointment as Auditor General for Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C707531", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Wigtown", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26799, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 316.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 316.0, "ID": 26799, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ms Patricia Ferguson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 324.0, "ContributionID": 707531, "EditedText": "I remind members that they should press their buttons if they wish to speak.", "EditedTextHTML": "I remind members that they should press their buttons if they wish to speak.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1892E34P73C707534", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Wigtown", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26799, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 316.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 316.0, "ID": 26799, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Fergusson, Alex", "ID": 1892, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Fergusson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Fergusson (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 333.0, "ContributionID": 707534, "EditedText": "I thank Alasdair for allowing me to speak in this debate. I congratulate him on again getting Galloway mentioned in the Scottish Parliament. One of the joys of the Scottish Parliament is that areas of rural Scotland are mentioned considerably more often in parliamentary circles than they were before its establishment. Saturday 16 May 1998 is memorable for more than one reason. It was my first day as the approved Scottish Conservative candidate for Galloway and Upper Nithsdale, which is highly notable. It was also the day of the official opening of Wigtown as Scotland's national book town. I would not like to make a pitch as to which event was the more important—it was probably Wigtown's national book town status. My first duty as a prospective candidate was to attend the opening of the national book town. It was a joy to witness the optimism on the faces of Wigtown residents and businessmen as the initiative was unveiled. Places such as Wigtown do not often receive good news on the scale that winning the national book town competition must have been. However, I have to ask whether that good news has been lived up to. What seemed to offer such promise has a long way to go if it is to live up to the early expectations. I appreciate that Wigtown, as a book town, is still young, but to identify some of the problems, we need look no further than the Machars visitor survey report that was published recently. Some of its findings point to areas where, as Alasdair said, there is a need for further investment. Visitors were not satisfied with the quality of visitor attractions; the public transport; the condition of the roads; the range of catering facilities; the availability and quality of public toilets; the facilities for disabled people; the shopping facilities; the opening times; and the range and quality of visitor activities. That is a shopping list of even greater length than Alasdair Morgan's. The shortcomings highlight the fact that it is not enough simply to nominate a village such as Wigtown as a national book town. There is a need for follow-up investment so that the peripheral businesses and further literary businesses that are needed are encouraged to establish themselves in Wigtown. Governments are fond of what I call headline politics. They excel at the creation of a popular headline but often fail to follow it up with the investment that is required to give substance to the headline. That is what has happened with Wigtown. If the expectations of Wigtown are to be achieved, further Government investment is necessary in this laudable and excellent initiative. I think that it was Lord Gordon of Strathblane who said that all Galloway needed to get people to turn left at Carlisle was one substantial visitor attraction. Wigtown could be that attraction, if it receives the help that it needs. I support the motion completely.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank Alasdair for allowing me to speak in this debate. I congratulate him on again getting Galloway mentioned in the Scottish Parliament. One of the joys of the Scottish Parliament is that areas of rural Scotland are mentioned considerably more often in parliamentary circles than they were before its establishment.

Saturday 16 May 1998 is memorable for more than one reason. It was my first day as the approved Scottish Conservative candidate for Galloway and Upper Nithsdale, which is highly notable. It was also the day of the official opening of Wigtown as Scotland's national book town. I would not like to make a pitch as to which event was the more important—it was probably Wigtown's national book town status.

My first duty as a prospective candidate was to attend the opening of the national book town. It was a joy to witness the optimism on the faces of Wigtown residents and businessmen as the initiative was unveiled. Places such as Wigtown do not often receive good news on the scale that winning the national book town competition must have been.

However, I have to ask whether that good news has been lived up to. What seemed to offer such promise has a long way to go if it is to live up to the early expectations. I appreciate that Wigtown, as a book town, is still young, but to identify some of the problems, we need look no further than the Machars visitor survey report that was published recently. Some of its findings point to areas where, as Alasdair said, there is a need for further investment.

Visitors were not satisfied with the quality of visitor attractions; the public transport; the condition of the roads; the range of catering facilities; the availability and quality of public toilets; the facilities for disabled people; the shopping facilities; the opening times; and the range and quality of visitor activities. That is a shopping list of even greater length than Alasdair Morgan's.

The shortcomings highlight the fact that it is not enough simply to nominate a village such as Wigtown as a national book town. There is a need

for follow-up investment so that the peripheral businesses and further literary businesses that are needed are encouraged to establish themselves in Wigtown.

Governments are fond of what I call headline politics. They excel at the creation of a popular headline but often fail to follow it up with the investment that is required to give substance to the headline. That is what has happened with Wigtown. If the expectations of Wigtown are to be achieved, further Government investment is necessary in this laudable and excellent initiative.

I think that it was Lord Gordon of Strathblane who said that all Galloway needed to get people to turn left at Carlisle was one substantial visitor attraction. Wigtown could be that attraction, if it receives the help that it needs.

I support the motion completely.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C707540", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Wigtown", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26799, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 316.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 316.0, "ID": 26799, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 346.0, "ContributionID": 707540, "EditedText": "Thank you very much for an interesting and well-informed debate. That brings this evening's meeting of the Parliament to a close. Thank you all.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you very much for an interesting and well-informed debate. That brings this evening's meeting of the Parliament to a close. Thank you all.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C707394", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 43.0, "ContributionID": 707394, "EditedText": "Mr Gallie had already made an intervention, and the minister was over the time agreed for her speech. I agree that it is difficult when an announcement is made right at the end of a speech, so perhaps the intervention could have been taken. In the end, it is at the discretion of the minister, but I have discouraged interventions in the closing stages of speeches. I hope that Mr Gallie will accept that.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Gallie had already made an intervention, and the minister was over the time agreed for her speech. I agree that it is difficult when an announcement is made right at the end of a speech, so perhaps the intervention could have been taken. In the end, it is at the discretion of the minister, but I have discouraged interventions in the closing stages of speeches. I hope that Mr Gallie will accept that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C707392", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 39.0, "ContributionID": 707392, "EditedText": "I think I know what it is, but carry on.", "EditedTextHTML": "I think I know what it is, but carry on.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C707377", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 9.0, "ContributionID": 707377, "EditedText": "As members may recall, in June I lodged a motion seeking agreement to the establishment of a UK food standards agency with a strong Scottish arm. The motion was, I am pleased to say, approved by this Parliament. The passage of the UK Food Standards Bill is now nearing completion, and arrangements for the establishment of the agency are well under way. I will say more about those arrangements later. Today I am asking members to give their backing to the priority that this Executive affords to food safety and to endorse the actions that we are taking to ensure that high standards of food safety are achieved across Scotland. In the previous debate, I spoke about the resonance that the issue has in Scotland, of my personal commitment to getting it right and of my determination to ensure that public health is our paramount consideration in all aspects of food policy. That is what the public expect—they have a right to do so. Today I want to go beyond those statements of intent and to outline the action that we are taking to achieve our objectives. Food safety is complex and sensitive terrain. I recognise that. However, I assure members that I for one will not shirk the tough questions—or the tougher-still decisions—that need to be taken. Equally, I want to do all in my power to ensure that those decisions are reached in the context of open, informed and reasoned debate. It is in that spirit that today I outline to members the next steps in our plans. I should say at the outset that I am opposed to the amendment lodged by Kay Ullrich which, I believe, seeks to narrow the debate unduly. With the greatest of respect, the terms in which it is offered are confused. However, in my remarks I will cover the issues that Mrs Ullrich has raised. First, I want to address the question of food poisoning. Food poisoning occurs for a number of reasons and takes many different forms. For many it means little more than an upset stomach or other short-term but unpleasant ailments. However, it must be remembered that food poisoning can and does kill. Last year, more than 30 Scots died from infections linked to food poisoning. Hundreds more required hospitalisation, and many of them will have sustained long-term physical damage. The risks, particularly to the most vulnerable—the young, the elderly, the sick and expectant mothers—are very real. Government, the industry, regulatory bodies and communities must work together to reduce them. That is why we as the Scottish Executive are taking action at a number of levels. On regulation, I am pleased to say that we have started to put in place the key outstanding recommendation of the Pennington report, which was drawn up after the devastating E coli 0157 outbreak in central Scotland. Draft regulations for a Scottish butchers licensing scheme were issued for consultation on 23 July. There has been a good response from the industry and other interested parties. The consultation process ends two days from now. After that, I intend to move quickly to allow final legislation to go to Europe for required consideration, so that we can have the scheme in place by next summer. The scheme aims to improve hygiene standards in butchers' shops, by ensuring that all butchers selling raw meat and ready-to-eat food—from small single-person businesses to butcher counters in supermarkets—have in place effective measures to minimise the risk of cross- contamination. As part of the consultation exercise on butchers' licensing, I have asked for comments on whether other high-risk premises, such as caterers, should be licensed. Those responses will be considered carefully. I am determined to take all necessary steps to reduce the risk of future outbreaks, including legislative action if that is appropriate and necessary. In that way, we can reassure the public that the protection of their health remains our most important consideration. That is why the Scottish Executive faces its responsibilities and why responsible Governments sometimes take difficult decisions such as the recent shellfish closures off the west coast and Orkney. Of course, improved food hygiene is about more than regulation. We must enforce hygiene rules firmly and fairly, but we need to give people information and advice on how we can all work together for improved food safety. During the summer and the somewhat short- lived barbecue season, we promoted safe-food messages; we will do the same again at Christmas. In a few weeks, I will launch a new advertising and promotion campaign to convey the safe-food message to caterers and to voluntary groups. Risks are high in the latter group, but sadly awareness of them has traditionally been low. At the same time, we are working with schools to promote a better understanding of food safety among, for example, young people who are learning to cook for the first time. I have been genuinely impressed by the innovative and imaginative ways in which teachers and health professionals are working together to engage youngsters in the issue. After all, simple steps such as hand washing and good food handling can greatly reduce the risks of the occurrence and spread of food poisoning. A further major component in our fight against food poisoning is the testing, monitoring and research work that goes on in laboratories and research institutions across the country. We will continue to invest in that work, and the new food standards agency will further strengthen activity. At all times, we will monitor that work closely to ensure that the work being undertaken meets the highest standards, and that the data are produced timeously and are reliable and relevant. High standards must permeate every strand of our work in food safety, and we will take action where high standards are not being met.", "EditedTextHTML": "As members may recall, in June I lodged a motion seeking agreement to the establishment of a UK food standards agency with a strong Scottish arm. The motion was, I am pleased to say, approved by this Parliament.

The passage of the UK Food Standards Bill is now nearing completion, and arrangements for the establishment of the agency are well under way. I will say more about those arrangements later.

Today I am asking members to give their backing to the priority that this Executive affords to food safety and to endorse the actions that we are taking to ensure that high standards of food safety are achieved across Scotland.

In the previous debate, I spoke about the resonance that the issue has in Scotland, of my personal commitment to getting it right and of my determination to ensure that public health is our paramount consideration in all aspects of food policy. That is what the public expect—they have a right to do so. Today I want to go beyond those statements of intent and to outline the action that we are taking to achieve our objectives.

Food safety is complex and sensitive terrain. I recognise that. However, I assure members that I for one will not shirk the tough questions—or the tougher-still decisions—that need to be taken. Equally, I want to do all in my power to ensure that those decisions are reached in the context of open, informed and reasoned debate. It is in that spirit that today I outline to members the next steps in our plans.

I should say at the outset that I am opposed to the amendment lodged by Kay Ullrich which, I believe, seeks to narrow the debate unduly. With the greatest of respect, the terms in which it is offered are confused. However, in my remarks I will cover the issues that Mrs Ullrich has raised.

First, I want to address the question of food poisoning. Food poisoning occurs for a number of reasons and takes many different forms. For many it means little more than an upset stomach or other short-term but unpleasant ailments. However, it must be remembered that food poisoning can and does kill.

Last year, more than 30 Scots died from infections linked to food poisoning. Hundreds more required hospitalisation, and many of them will have sustained long-term physical damage. The risks, particularly to the most vulnerable—the young, the elderly, the sick and expectant mothers—are very real. Government, the industry, regulatory bodies and communities must work together to reduce them. That is why we as the Scottish Executive are taking action at a number of levels.

On regulation, I am pleased to say that we have started to put in place the key outstanding recommendation of the Pennington report, which was drawn up after the devastating E coli 0157 outbreak in central Scotland. Draft regulations for a Scottish butchers licensing scheme were issued for consultation on 23 July. There has been a good response from the industry and other interested parties. The consultation process ends two days from now. After that, I intend to move quickly to allow final legislation to go to Europe for required consideration, so that we can have the scheme in place by next summer.

The scheme aims to improve hygiene standards in butchers' shops, by ensuring that all butchers selling raw meat and ready-to-eat food—from small single-person businesses to butcher counters in supermarkets—have in place effective measures to minimise the risk of cross- contamination. As part of the consultation exercise on butchers' licensing, I have asked for comments on whether other high-risk premises, such as caterers, should be licensed. Those responses will be considered carefully.

I am determined to take all necessary steps to reduce the risk of future outbreaks, including legislative action if that is appropriate and necessary. In that way, we can reassure the public that the protection of their health remains our most important consideration. That is why the Scottish Executive faces its responsibilities and why

responsible Governments sometimes take difficult decisions such as the recent shellfish closures off the west coast and Orkney.

Of course, improved food hygiene is about more than regulation. We must enforce hygiene rules firmly and fairly, but we need to give people information and advice on how we can all work together for improved food safety.

During the summer and the somewhat short- lived barbecue season, we promoted safe-food messages; we will do the same again at Christmas. In a few weeks, I will launch a new advertising and promotion campaign to convey the safe-food message to caterers and to voluntary groups. Risks are high in the latter group, but sadly awareness of them has traditionally been low.

At the same time, we are working with schools to promote a better understanding of food safety among, for example, young people who are learning to cook for the first time. I have been genuinely impressed by the innovative and imaginative ways in which teachers and health professionals are working together to engage youngsters in the issue. After all, simple steps such as hand washing and good food handling can greatly reduce the risks of the occurrence and spread of food poisoning.

A further major component in our fight against food poisoning is the testing, monitoring and research work that goes on in laboratories and research institutions across the country. We will continue to invest in that work, and the new food standards agency will further strengthen activity.

At all times, we will monitor that work closely to ensure that the work being undertaken meets the highest standards, and that the data are produced timeously and are reliable and relevant. High standards must permeate every strand of our work in food safety, and we will take action where high standards are not being met.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C707381", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 17.0, "ContributionID": 707381, "EditedText": "I have several other points to cover, and would rather move on to them. There is a wider issue; food safety is about more than just reducing the risks of food poisoning. I know how important it is to take other measures to ensure that food is safe to eat and, most important, that consumers can make informed choices. In that regard, I am very much aware of the public interest in and concern about genetically modified food and of the wider environmental concerns relating to GM crops. I do not have time today to do justice to all the aspects of the issue. I want to give an assurance that the Executive is working across departments and ministerial responsibilities to examine the best way in which to take forward the many issues raised by GM science. We want to develop a considered approach and I am deeply aware that, at present, there is confusion and misunderstanding in much of the discussion surrounding GM issues. That is unhelpful and does nothing to aid or to reassure the consumer. I recognise that there are legitimate concerns, and I want to take this opportunity to re- emphasise that all GM foods currently on sale have passed rigorous safety assessments through the UK Advisory Committee on Novel Foods and Processes—an independent body—and the food assessment authorities of all EC member states. However, informed consumer choice is also essential. People should be able to choose whether to eat GM food. Labelling regulations were introduced in March requiring caterers and others who sell directly to consumers to tell customers which, if any, of the foods they sell contain GM soya or maize. We are also supporting moves in the EU to extend the labelling provisions on GM—specifically to cover foods with GM additives or flavouring. However, it is important that we understand that, although GM food is a devolved area, just like Westminster, we cannot introduce measures outwith the scope of European rules. We will work within those rules, with our partners in the UK and the European Union, to increase the amount of information available to consumers and to ensure that consumer safety is paramount in all our considerations. The subject of food labelling extends beyond the issue of GM foods. Too many people are confused by the information on labels. Other people, such as allergy sufferers, cannot obtain the information that they need to make an informed choice, or to avoid foods that are dangerous to them. I want to ensure that we improve our efforts in that respect. A review of food labelling is under way in Europe, and I will ensure that Scottish views are considered in it. The UK food advisory committee will meet soon in Edinburgh as part of an open day on food labelling. I will meet members of the committee at that time. Members of the public will have an opportunity to put their views to that forum, and I encourage them to do so. Beef on the bone is an issue that has been raised in the chamber on several occasions—not always in the considered way that it deserves. As the Executive has stated many times, it is a public health issue. As in other areas of food safety policy, we will act in the best interests of the public, based on the scientific and medical advice that is available to us, for the sake of young and old. As we made clear in the partnership agreement and again in our programme for government, we believe that the beef-on-the-bone ban should be lifted as soon as medical advice indicates that it is safe to do so. I can assure the Parliament that our medical advisers are actively and closely considering the matter. In addition, given the considerable cross- border traffic of beef and beef products, we are working with our colleagues in Wales, Northern Ireland and Westminster on the issue. I stress that the position remains that any decisions will be taken on the basis of medical advice, which is being actively monitored.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have several other points to cover, and would rather move on to them.

There is a wider issue; food safety is about more than just reducing the risks of food poisoning. I know how important it is to take other measures to ensure that food is safe to eat and, most important, that consumers can make informed choices.

In that regard, I am very much aware of the public interest in and concern about genetically modified food and of the wider environmental concerns relating to GM crops. I do not have time today to do justice to all the aspects of the issue. I want to give an assurance that the Executive is working across departments and ministerial responsibilities to examine the best way in which to take forward the many issues raised by GM science.

We want to develop a considered approach and I am deeply aware that, at present, there is confusion and misunderstanding in much of the discussion surrounding GM issues. That is unhelpful and does nothing to aid or to reassure the consumer. I recognise that there are legitimate concerns, and I want to take this opportunity to re- emphasise that all GM foods currently on sale have passed rigorous safety assessments through the UK Advisory Committee on Novel Foods and Processes—an independent body—and the food assessment authorities of all EC member states.

However, informed consumer choice is also essential. People should be able to choose whether to eat GM food. Labelling regulations were introduced in March requiring caterers and others who sell directly to consumers to tell customers which, if any, of the foods they sell contain GM soya or maize. We are also supporting moves in the EU to extend the labelling provisions on GM—specifically to cover foods with GM additives or flavouring.

However, it is important that we understand that, although GM food is a devolved area, just like Westminster, we cannot introduce measures

outwith the scope of European rules. We will work within those rules, with our partners in the UK and the European Union, to increase the amount of information available to consumers and to ensure that consumer safety is paramount in all our considerations.

The subject of food labelling extends beyond the issue of GM foods. Too many people are confused by the information on labels. Other people, such as allergy sufferers, cannot obtain the information that they need to make an informed choice, or to avoid foods that are dangerous to them. I want to ensure that we improve our efforts in that respect.

A review of food labelling is under way in Europe, and I will ensure that Scottish views are considered in it. The UK food advisory committee will meet soon in Edinburgh as part of an open day on food labelling. I will meet members of the committee at that time. Members of the public will have an opportunity to put their views to that forum, and I encourage them to do so.

Beef on the bone is an issue that has been raised in the chamber on several occasions—not always in the considered way that it deserves. As the Executive has stated many times, it is a public health issue. As in other areas of food safety policy, we will act in the best interests of the public, based on the scientific and medical advice that is available to us, for the sake of young and old. As we made clear in the partnership agreement and again in our programme for government, we believe that the beef-on-the-bone ban should be lifted as soon as medical advice indicates that it is safe to do so.

I can assure the Parliament that our medical advisers are actively and closely considering the matter. In addition, given the considerable cross- border traffic of beef and beef products, we are working with our colleagues in Wales, Northern Ireland and Westminster on the issue. I stress that the position remains that any decisions will be taken on the basis of medical advice, which is being actively monitored.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C707383", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 21.0, "ContributionID": 707383, "EditedText": "As we made clear in previous discussions and debates, the Executive takes regular advice from the chief medical officer for Scotland on the issue. We will continue to do that. As we have said repeatedly, we will lift the ban as soon as medical advice says that it is safe to do so. I do not think that we can make our position any clearer than that. In the interests of time, I want now to return to the food standards agency, which is such an important element of the debate. As we know, and as has been discussed previously, the agency will have a major role to play in taking forward much of the future work on food standards and general food safety. The bill is completing its passage through the House of Commons and will be considered in the House of Lords shortly.", "EditedTextHTML": "As we made clear in previous discussions and debates, the Executive takes regular advice from the chief medical officer for Scotland on the issue. We will continue to do that. As we have said repeatedly, we will lift the ban as soon as medical advice says that it is safe to do so. I do not think that we can make our position any clearer than that.

In the interests of time, I want now to return to the food standards agency, which is such an important element of the debate.

As we know, and as has been discussed previously, the agency will have a major role to play in taking forward much of the future work on food standards and general food safety. The bill is completing its passage through the House of Commons and will be considered in the House of Lords shortly.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C707388", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 31.0, "ContributionID": 707388, "EditedText": "I will finish my point, if I may.We plan to meet representatives from the two locations and to reach a decision within the next two weeks. Of course we will advise Parliament of our decision. I understand that I should wind up, so I regret that I cannot take a further intervention. In closing, let me again emphasise the Executive's commitment to achieving the highest standards of food safety—", "EditedTextHTML": "I will finish my point, if I may.

We plan to meet representatives from the two locations and to reach a decision within the next two weeks. Of course we will advise Parliament of our decision.

I understand that I should wind up, so I regret that I cannot take a further intervention.

In closing, let me again emphasise the Executive's commitment to achieving the highest standards of food safety—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C707408", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 72.0, "ContributionID": 707408, "EditedText": "Before I call the next speaker, I would like to go back to Bruce Crawford's point of order. A written answer is technically in the public domain even before it is published because it has gone to the member who asked the question. However, the rest of us do not know what is in it. All our procedures are new, and I am not criticising, but I think that it would be good practice for a written answer—if it is going to be referred to—to be made available to members ahead of the usual weekly printing. We are learning as we go along, but I think that that would be a good procedure for the future.", "EditedTextHTML": "Before I call the next speaker, I would like to go back to Bruce Crawford's point of order. A written answer is technically in the public domain even before it is published because it has gone to the member who asked the question. However, the rest of us do not know what is in it. All our procedures are new, and I am not criticising, but I think that it would be good practice for a written answer—if it is going to be referred to—to be made available to members ahead of the usual weekly printing. We are learning as we go along, but I think that that would be a good procedure for the future.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C707409", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 75.0, "ContributionID": 707409, "EditedText": "The Conservative party welcomes the establishment of an effective and independent food standards agency. The agency will affect not only people's livelihoods, but—more important— their lives. It will improve food safety and increase confidence in our food industry, while monitoring standards of food hygiene to address public concerns. In short, as well as improving health, it will help primary and secondary producers, and it will help to create jobs and prosperity. Nevertheless, some points need to be made, and we will make them in the manner expected of an Opposition party in an open and accountable democracy. I hope that these points will be taken in the positive and constructive manner in which they are made, and I look forward the minister's replies. We oppose any moves that would lead to Scotland facing additional burdens to those experienced in other areas of the UK. In that sense, we welcome the Scottish Executive's single market for the food standards agency. It would be helpful if we could have clarification of the relationship between the food standards agency and the Scottish Executive. Several questions come to my mind. Can the Scottish Executive overrule the agency's recommendations? Will the Scottish Executive accept and fully implement all the agency's recommendations? It is important that this fledgling Parliament is aware of the input of the ministers for health and for rural affairs in that process. Can we be assured that the agency will be truly independent of the Government and party politics? I was pleased to hear Susan Deacon say that information will be readily available. I wanted to make a point about that, but it no longer needs to be made. I would like open, accessible and accountable judgments and I am delighted to hear that that has been addressed. It is important that judgments are publicly available, especially for those who are affected. The agency must be responsible and accountable in issuing information so that there is not undue public concern, whether because of imbalance, lack of supporting advice or any other factor. Will compensation be paid to any producers who are wrongly accused? We all know about the example in Scotland that led to considerable publicity. Decisions and risk assessments must be open to public and parliamentary scrutiny. An example would be a comparable risk assessment of genetically modified food and beef on the bone. Would the food standards agency have the authority to lift the beef-on-the-bone ban? I am aware that Alasdair Morgan mentioned that, but we must be absolutely clear about it. What evidence is there that eating beef on the bone has harmed anyone in the United Kingdom? Knowing that would be helpful in educating us all in this debate. I am also pleased that the minister addressed the subject of GM foods. GM crops were not mentioned but I am concerned about them, especially about their environmental impact. There is undoubtedly widespread public concern about GM foods and crops, and the food standards agency—if it were given the power to investigate— would have a role to play in allaying those concerns. There is concern that the agency will add to the many burdens that are already imposed on small and medium-sized British food producers. That brings me back to a question that I raised in the debate in June, when I asked whether we—as consumers in Scotland—could have the same faith in the quality of imported food that we would have in Scottish and British foods. I am pleased to say to Mr Lyon that, in its statement of 13 September, the National Farmers Union of Scotland said of the pig industry: \"Prices have been below the cost of production for almost a year and a half . . . Our Farmers are required to meet higher welfare standards than our main competitors, and we are prevented from using certain food components . . . We also suffer from high processing costs, due to meat inspection charges and the cost of by-product disposal.\" I feel that that statement summarises my points.Although I fully welcome a food standards agency, there must be a level playing field across Europe on which our farmers can compete, with the same standards and the same production costs for all farmers in Europe.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Conservative party welcomes the establishment of an effective and independent food standards agency. The agency will affect not only people's livelihoods, but—more important— their lives. It will improve food safety and increase confidence in our food industry, while monitoring standards of food hygiene to address public concerns. In short, as well as improving health, it will help primary and secondary producers, and it will help to create jobs and prosperity.

Nevertheless, some points need to be made, and we will make them in the manner expected of an Opposition party in an open and accountable democracy. I hope that these points will be taken in the positive and constructive manner in which they are made, and I look forward the minister's replies.

We oppose any moves that would lead to Scotland facing additional burdens to those experienced in other areas of the UK. In that sense, we welcome the Scottish Executive's single market for the food standards agency.

It would be helpful if we could have clarification of the relationship between the food standards agency and the Scottish Executive. Several questions come to my mind. Can the Scottish Executive overrule the agency's recommendations? Will the Scottish Executive accept and fully implement all the agency's recommendations?

It is important that this fledgling Parliament is aware of the input of the ministers for health and for rural affairs in that process. Can we be assured that the agency will be truly independent of the Government and party politics?

I was pleased to hear Susan Deacon say that information will be readily available. I wanted to make a point about that, but it no longer needs to be made. I would like open, accessible and accountable judgments and I am delighted to hear that that has been addressed. It is important that judgments are publicly available, especially for those who are affected.

The agency must be responsible and accountable in issuing information so that there is not undue public concern, whether because of imbalance, lack of supporting advice or any other factor.

Will compensation be paid to any producers who are wrongly accused? We all know about the

example in Scotland that led to considerable publicity.

Decisions and risk assessments must be open to public and parliamentary scrutiny. An example would be a comparable risk assessment of genetically modified food and beef on the bone.

Would the food standards agency have the authority to lift the beef-on-the-bone ban? I am aware that Alasdair Morgan mentioned that, but we must be absolutely clear about it. What evidence is there that eating beef on the bone has harmed anyone in the United Kingdom? Knowing that would be helpful in educating us all in this debate.

I am also pleased that the minister addressed the subject of GM foods. GM crops were not mentioned but I am concerned about them, especially about their environmental impact. There is undoubtedly widespread public concern about GM foods and crops, and the food standards agency—if it were given the power to investigate— would have a role to play in allaying those concerns.

There is concern that the agency will add to the many burdens that are already imposed on small and medium-sized British food producers. That brings me back to a question that I raised in the debate in June, when I asked whether we—as consumers in Scotland—could have the same faith in the quality of imported food that we would have in Scottish and British foods.

I am pleased to say to Mr Lyon that, in its statement of 13 September, the National Farmers Union of Scotland said of the pig industry:

\"Prices have been below the cost of production for almost a year and a half . . . Our Farmers are required to meet higher welfare standards than our main competitors, and we are prevented from using certain food components . . . We also suffer from high processing costs, due to meat inspection charges and the cost of by-product disposal.\"

I feel that that statement summarises my points.

Although I fully welcome a food standards agency, there must be a level playing field across Europe on which our farmers can compete, with the same standards and the same production costs for all farmers in Europe.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C707410", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Rural Affairs (Ross Finnie): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 77.0, "ContributionID": 707410, "EditedText": "Does Mary Scanlon agree that, although a level playing field would be welcome, the correct way of creating one would be for Europe to adopt our very proper standards for the pig industry, particularly in relation to the stall-and-tether ban? Does she further agree that, in relation to health, and in the wake of the BSE crisis, it would be quite wrong for us to contemplate having meat and bonemeal in animal feedstuffs?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does Mary Scanlon agree that, although a level playing field would be welcome, the correct way of creating one would be for Europe to adopt our very proper standards for the pig industry, particularly in relation to the stall-and-tether ban? Does she further agree that, in relation to health, and in the wake of the BSE crisis, it would be quite wrong for us to contemplate having meat and bonemeal in animal feedstuffs?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C707411", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 79.0, "ContributionID": 707411, "EditedText": "There is no doubt that every person in this country would welcome the adoption by the other 14 European countries of the consistent, high-quality standards that we are discussing today. I ask Ross Finnie, as the Minister for Rural Affairs, to use his influence to bring that about. That would be very welcome, and I thank him for his intervention. Will the food standards agency act swiftly to ban the import of meat produced in conditions and using methods that are not allowed here? I refer again to the point that the Minister for Rural Affairs made. The relevant examples relate to pig and poultry farming. I commend the patient and competent Convener of the Health and Community Care Committee—I see that she is out of the chamber at the moment—for grappling not only with the members of that committee, but with the increasing number of statutory instruments relating to food safety. I appreciate that the system is in its early days, and that methods are coming into place, but I was alarmed to read the document that came to my desk as I sat down for the committee meeting this morning. It said that, although affected feed had been sold to 416 Belgian farms and exported to France and Holland, the ban applied only to Belgium. Why is that? I would welcome our having a greater input into such matters. We should be concerned about the system of qualified majority voting, under which the ban was put through the European structures. The United Kingdom, with its 10 votes in Europe, could vote against a Commission proposal, yet, because of the weighting under QMV, we could still be liable to implement that proposal. I appreciate that that is called democracy, but it is none the less a matter of concern. The Minister for Health and Community Care mentioned labelling. Consumers could be forgiven for thinking that food labelled \"processed in Scotland\" was produced in Scotland. Such labelling is used to disguise imported food— especially meat products—as Scottish food. Overregulation of UK food producers, which is not matched by regulation on overseas producers, puts our farming and food processing industry at a distinct competitive advantage. To eliminate unfair competition, the food standards agency, the Scottish Executive and the Westminster Government should apply the same rigorous standards to foreign produce as are applied to our own.", "EditedTextHTML": "There is no doubt that every person in this country would welcome the adoption by the other 14 European countries of the consistent, high-quality standards that we are discussing today. I ask Ross Finnie, as the Minister for Rural Affairs, to use his influence to bring that about. That would be very welcome, and I thank him for his intervention.

Will the food standards agency act swiftly to ban the import of meat produced in conditions and using methods that are not allowed here? I refer again to the point that the Minister for Rural Affairs made. The relevant examples relate to pig and poultry farming.

I commend the patient and competent Convener of the Health and Community Care Committee—I see that she is out of the chamber at the moment—for grappling not only with the members of that committee, but with the increasing number of statutory instruments relating to food safety. I appreciate that the system is in its early days, and that methods are coming into place, but I was alarmed to read the document that came to my desk as I sat down for the committee meeting this morning. It said that, although affected feed had been sold to 416 Belgian farms and exported to France and Holland, the ban applied only to Belgium. Why is that? I would welcome our having a greater input into such matters.

We should be concerned about the system of qualified majority voting, under which the ban was put through the European structures. The United Kingdom, with its 10 votes in Europe, could vote against a Commission proposal, yet, because of the weighting under QMV, we could still be liable to implement that proposal. I appreciate that that is called democracy, but it is none the less a matter of concern.

The Minister for Health and Community Care mentioned labelling. Consumers could be forgiven for thinking that food labelled \"processed in Scotland\" was produced in Scotland. Such labelling is used to disguise imported food— especially meat products—as Scottish food. Overregulation of UK food producers, which is not matched by regulation on overseas producers, puts our farming and food processing industry at a distinct competitive advantage. To eliminate unfair competition, the food standards agency, the Scottish Executive and the Westminster Government should apply the same rigorous standards to foreign produce as are applied to our own.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2117E79P104C707414", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macdonald, Lewis", "ID": 2117, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lewis Macdonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Lewis Macdonald (Aberdeen Central) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 87.0, "ContributionID": 707414, "EditedText": "I do not know why Aberdeen and the Grampian region suffer a higher incidence of E coli infection than other areas, not just in this country, but elsewhere in the world. I also do not know how campylobacter, which is the most common cause of food poisoning in Britain, is transmitted from poultry and wild birds to an estimated 50,000 people in Scotland every year. I know that people are trying to find out, however. Many of them work at the national reference laboratories at Foresterhill in my constituency. I welcome the minister's offer for talks between the management of the laboratories and the advisory committee and I hope that the outcome of those talks will be that the laboratories' very important work can continue. I also welcome the minister's outline of the broad remit of the UK food standards agency and of the steps that she will take to ensure that the Scottish arm of the agency is set up as quickly as well-informed consultation will allow. I welcome today's important declaration of principle about the dispersal of civil service and Scottish Executive jobs. Members will not surprised to hear that, like Mike Rumbles, I welcome the announcement that Aberdeen has been placed on the shortlist for consideration as the location of the Scottish arm of the FSA. The minister knows that I have been keen that the case for locating the agency in Aberdeen should be made directly by some of the many scientists in the city who work in the relevant fields. I hope that, in summing up, the minister will be able to tell us a little more about the consultation process that will be used to make the final decision about the shortlist. I welcome Kay Ullrich's positive comments about the work at Foresterhill and her reminder of the world-class work on E coli 0157 that is being done by Professor Hugh Pennington at the University of Aberdeen. However, I am a little disappointed that she did not say more about where she thinks the Scottish arm of the FSA should be located. Constituency members in the north-east know that there is more distance between Aberdeen and Dundee than just 54 miles of dual carriageway. Perhaps some of Mrs Ullrich's colleagues will be able to indicate more clearly where they believe the agency should be located. I am sorry to disappoint Kay Ullrich; I will not support her amendment today. I have read it closely and it refers to \"a food standards agency in the North East.\"I am sure that it means a food standards agency for Scotland in the north-east; the intention behind the amendment is the establishment of a food standards agency for Scotland only.", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not know why Aberdeen and the Grampian region suffer a higher incidence of E coli infection than other areas, not just in this country, but elsewhere in the world. I also do not know how campylobacter, which is the most common cause of food poisoning in Britain, is transmitted from poultry and wild birds to an estimated 50,000 people in Scotland every year.

I know that people are trying to find out, however. Many of them work at the national reference laboratories at Foresterhill in my constituency. I welcome the minister's offer for talks between the management of the laboratories and the advisory committee and I hope that the outcome of those talks will be that the laboratories' very important work can continue.

I also welcome the minister's outline of the broad remit of the UK food standards agency and of the steps that she will take to ensure that the Scottish arm of the agency is set up as quickly as well-informed consultation will allow. I welcome today's important declaration of principle about the dispersal of civil service and Scottish Executive jobs.

Members will not surprised to hear that, like Mike Rumbles, I welcome the announcement that Aberdeen has been placed on the shortlist for consideration as the location of the Scottish arm of the FSA. The minister knows that I have been keen that the case for locating the agency in Aberdeen should be made directly by some of the many scientists in the city who work in the relevant fields. I hope that, in summing up, the minister will be able to tell us a little more about the consultation process that will be used to make the final decision about the shortlist.

I welcome Kay Ullrich's positive comments about the work at Foresterhill and her reminder of the world-class work on E coli 0157 that is being done by Professor Hugh Pennington at the University of Aberdeen. However, I am a little disappointed that she did not say more about where she thinks the Scottish arm of the FSA should be located.

Constituency members in the north-east know that there is more distance between Aberdeen and Dundee than just 54 miles of dual carriageway. Perhaps some of Mrs Ullrich's colleagues will be able to indicate more clearly where they believe the agency should be located.

I am sorry to disappoint Kay Ullrich; I will not support her amendment today. I have read it closely and it refers to

\"a food standards agency in the North East.\"

I am sure that it means a food standards agency for Scotland in the north-east; the intention behind the amendment is the establishment of a food standards agency for Scotland only.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1811E172P455C707415", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ullrich, Kay", "ID": 1811, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kay Ullrich", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Kay Ullrich: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 89.0, "ContributionID": 707415, "EditedText": "Is Mr Macdonald not going to vote for the amendment because I omitted the word Scotland? Or is that simply his excuse, because he has been whipped?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is Mr Macdonald not going to vote for the amendment because I omitted the word Scotland? Or is that simply his excuse, because he has been whipped?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2117E79P104C707416", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macdonald, Lewis", "ID": 2117, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lewis Macdonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Lewis Macdonald: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 91.0, "ContributionID": 707416, "EditedText": "Mrs Ullrich misunderstands me. The reality is that her commitment is to a Scottish agency and mine is to a British one. I welcome the establishment of a Scottish arm of the UK agency. If Mrs Ullrich wishes to clarify her position further, I will be happy to allow her to do so. I look forward to welcoming the food standards legislation on to the statute book and to welcoming the agency's Scottish headquarters to Aberdeen.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mrs Ullrich misunderstands me. The reality is that her commitment is to a Scottish agency and mine is to a British one. I welcome the establishment of a Scottish arm of the UK agency. If Mrs Ullrich wishes to clarify her position further, I will be happy to allow her to do so. I look forward to welcoming the food standards legislation on to the statute book and to welcoming the agency's Scottish headquarters to Aberdeen.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1781E188P474C707417", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McGugan, Irene", "ID": 1781, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Irene McGugan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Irene McGugan (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 94.0, "ContributionID": 707417, "EditedText": "I too welcome today's announcement, which confirmed that the Scottish food standards agency will be located in the north-east. It is acknowledged that the expertise and infrastructure exist there to support such a development. During the past 30 years, the north-east has pioneered collaborative links between academic research, local industries and government agencies. Such links were a necessity as the oil and gas industry developed, but we are now able to recognise the wider benefits that such an approach can bring to local communities and society as a whole. The large proportion of Scotland's food production and processing industries that are based in the north-east must have been a significant factor in the decision about location. For example, Grampian is responsible for a third of Scotland's food industry output. In addition to food manufacturing and processing, Grampian, as we have heard, is home to over 3,000 scientists and support staff in a number of world-renowned research institutes, all working on projects that could have a major positive impact on public health. We are very fortunate to have those centres of academic excellence available to us, because there are immeasurable advantages in locating the food standards agency closest to those who will be responsible, on the ground, for ensuring food safety of the highest quality. Scotland has an international reputation for exporting premium produce, but in recent years that reputation has been dented by a string of food scares—relating to BSE and the use of pesticides, herbicides, hormones and antibiotics—that have hit our agricultural sector hard. Those difficulties are set to be compounded by the implementation of Agenda 2000, when much of rural Scotland will be wiped off the EU aid map. To build a sustainable future, we need to restore confidence in our indigenous industries. By building on existing practice and bringing food safety experts and producers together, we must ensure that the mistakes of the past are never repeated. There is an urgent need to restore confidence in the safety of the food that we eat and that means making positive changes at every level of food production. We owe it to the food production, processing and technology industries to provide them with a framework from which they can compete internationally once again. Like others, I am very keen to know how autonomous the Scottish food standards agency will be, because we have a distinctive food production sector in Scotland that has suffered in recent years from remote government. The most notorious example was the BSE crisis, which could have been tackled much earlier and more effectively on a Scottish basis. I am concerned that under the administrative concordats that define responsibilities, responsibility will rest with the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food or the London- based food standards agency, rather than with the Scottish Parliament. I would like to be reassured that members of the food standards agency and the advisory committee will have the authority to act in the best interests of Scotland. Can the minister assure us that the Scottish food standards agency will be more than a toothless quango?", "EditedTextHTML": "I too welcome today's announcement, which confirmed that the Scottish food standards agency will be located in the north-east. It is acknowledged that the expertise and infrastructure exist there to support such a development.

During the past 30 years, the north-east has pioneered collaborative links between academic research, local industries and government agencies. Such links were a necessity as the oil and gas industry developed, but we are now able to recognise the wider benefits that such an approach can bring to local communities and society as a whole.

The large proportion of Scotland's food production and processing industries that are based in the north-east must have been a significant factor in the decision about location. For example, Grampian is responsible for a third of Scotland's food industry output. In addition to food manufacturing and processing, Grampian, as we have heard, is home to over 3,000 scientists and support staff in a number of world-renowned research institutes, all working on projects that could have a major positive impact on public health. We are very fortunate to have those centres of academic excellence available to us, because there are immeasurable advantages in locating the food standards agency closest to those who will be responsible, on the ground, for ensuring food safety of the highest quality.

Scotland has an international reputation for exporting premium produce, but in recent years that reputation has been dented by a string of food scares—relating to BSE and the use of pesticides, herbicides, hormones and antibiotics—that have hit our agricultural sector hard. Those difficulties are set to be compounded by the implementation of Agenda 2000, when much of rural Scotland will be wiped off the EU aid map.

To build a sustainable future, we need to restore confidence in our indigenous industries. By building on existing practice and bringing food safety experts and producers together, we must ensure that the mistakes of the past are never repeated. There is an urgent need to restore confidence in the safety of the food that we eat and that means making positive changes at every level of food production. We owe it to the food production, processing and technology industries to provide them with a framework from which they can compete internationally once again.

Like others, I am very keen to know how autonomous the Scottish food standards agency will be, because we have a distinctive food production sector in Scotland that has suffered in recent years from remote government. The most notorious example was the BSE crisis, which could have been tackled much earlier and more effectively on a Scottish basis.

I am concerned that under the administrative concordats that define responsibilities, responsibility will rest with the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food or the London- based food standards agency, rather than with the Scottish Parliament. I would like to be reassured that members of the food standards agency and the advisory committee will have the authority to act in the best interests of Scotland. Can the minister assure us that the Scottish food standards agency will be more than a toothless quango?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1926E190P479C707427", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Adam, Brian", "ID": 1926, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Adam", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Brian Adam: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 115.0, "ContributionID": 707427, "EditedText": "Will Ms MacLean give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Ms MacLean give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1807E84P267C707428", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Maclean, Kate", "ID": 1807, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dundee West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kate Maclean", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Kate MacLean: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 117.0, "ContributionID": 707428, "EditedText": "No, I will continue.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I will continue.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1926E190P479C707429", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Adam, Brian", "ID": 1926, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Adam", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Brian Adam: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 119.0, "ContributionID": 707429, "EditedText": "What is it about the Administration benches today that none of them is prepared to give way to me?", "EditedTextHTML": "What is it about the Administration benches today that none of them is prepared to give way to me?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1768E72P274C707434", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Murray, Elaine", "ID": 1768, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumfries" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Murray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Elaine Murray (Dumfries) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 131.0, "ContributionID": 707434, "EditedText": "I am very pleased to support the motion, because the creation of the food standards agency is part of a wider programme for improving public health. I was pleased to observe that Labour's manifesto for the Scottish Parliament elections reiterated our commitment to setting up a UK-wide food standards agency with an independent Scottish advisory committee. As members will know, the Food Standards Bill was brought before the House of Commons on 23 July. I welcome the Scottish Executive's document and the statement by the minister that commits the Government to establishing the agency's Scottish arm by the first half of next year. Food scare stories have become an unpleasant fact of life in recent years. We have had reports on salmonella in eggs, and related to that the downfall of a rather colourful Tory minister. We have had listeria in dairy products and the worry over its effects on unborn babies. In conjunction with BSE and E coli 0157, they have reduced public confidence in food, and they have severely damaged the industries that are identified with a food risk. We need only consider the damage done to British agriculture by the BSE crisis; that damage has affected many sectors of the food industry, not just the beef industry. I am not going to hijack this debate into one about agriculture. Those of us who represent rural constituencies are well aware of the problems that have arisen from that crisis. Indeed, the damage is taking many years even to begin to rectify, because when the public lose confidence in a food product it takes a long time for that confidence to be restored. Not surprisingly, people have long memories when it comes to food poisoning. Like Annabel Goldie, I remember the typhoid food poisoning scare in Aberdeen. We recall those food threats to our own, and other people's, health because if adults are prepared to take risks with their own health, most will err on the side of safety when it comes to their children. I asked the Meat and Livestock Commission who was most affected by the fears over eating beef, and it said that still it was mothers of young children who have the greatest concerns about the health implications. I come from a local authority background, and similar concerns exist there over the provision of food to vulnerable sections of society, such as young children and the elderly. One of the reasons why it takes so long for public confidence to return is that people do not know who or what to believe. The media, which are justified in reporting the genuine public interest and concerns, do at times add to the sense of panic. For example, some of the headlines concerning the GM debate referred to Frankenstein foods. That type of reporting does nothing to help scientific, logical or rational debate on those issues.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am very pleased to support the motion, because the creation of the food standards agency is part of a wider programme for improving public health. I was pleased to observe that Labour's manifesto for the Scottish Parliament elections reiterated our commitment to setting up a UK-wide food standards agency with an independent Scottish advisory committee. As members will know, the Food Standards Bill was brought before the House of Commons on 23 July. I welcome the Scottish Executive's document and the statement by the minister that commits the Government to establishing the agency's Scottish arm by the first half of next year.

Food scare stories have become an unpleasant fact of life in recent years. We have had reports on salmonella in eggs, and related to that the downfall of a rather colourful Tory minister. We

have had listeria in dairy products and the worry over its effects on unborn babies. In conjunction with BSE and E coli 0157, they have reduced public confidence in food, and they have severely damaged the industries that are identified with a food risk. We need only consider the damage done to British agriculture by the BSE crisis; that damage has affected many sectors of the food industry, not just the beef industry.

I am not going to hijack this debate into one about agriculture. Those of us who represent rural constituencies are well aware of the problems that have arisen from that crisis. Indeed, the damage is taking many years even to begin to rectify, because when the public lose confidence in a food product it takes a long time for that confidence to be restored. Not surprisingly, people have long memories when it comes to food poisoning. Like Annabel Goldie, I remember the typhoid food poisoning scare in Aberdeen. We recall those food threats to our own, and other people's, health because if adults are prepared to take risks with their own health, most will err on the side of safety when it comes to their children. I asked the Meat and Livestock Commission who was most affected by the fears over eating beef, and it said that still it was mothers of young children who have the greatest concerns about the health implications.

I come from a local authority background, and similar concerns exist there over the provision of food to vulnerable sections of society, such as young children and the elderly. One of the reasons why it takes so long for public confidence to return is that people do not know who or what to believe. The media, which are justified in reporting the genuine public interest and concerns, do at times add to the sense of panic. For example, some of the headlines concerning the GM debate referred to Frankenstein foods. That type of reporting does nothing to help scientific, logical or rational debate on those issues.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2117E79P104C707439", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macdonald, Lewis", "ID": 2117, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lewis Macdonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Lewis Macdonald: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 142.0, "ContributionID": 707439, "EditedText": "In the light of Mr Hamilton's affirmation that locating the food standards agency in the north-east is long-standing party policy, will he tell us where the SNP would locate the Scottish arm of the food standards agency?", "EditedTextHTML": "In the light of Mr Hamilton's affirmation that locating the food standards agency in the north-east is long-standing party policy, will he tell us where the SNP would locate the Scottish arm of the food standards agency?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1931E120P189C707442", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Muldoon, Bristow", "ID": 1931, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Livingston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bristow Muldoon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bristow Muldoon (Livingston) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 150.0, "ContributionID": 707442, "EditedText": "It is important to consider why the food standards agency is necessary. That is something Conservative members may want to concentrate on. It seems that there is mass amnesia in the Conservative ranks about the fact that the crisis in public confidence in food and the crisis in the agriculture industry were caused during their term in government. The establishment of a food standards agency is essential after the food-related problems of the past 10 years or so and the resulting erosion of public confidence.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is important to consider why the food standards agency is necessary. That is something Conservative members may want to concentrate on. It seems that there is mass amnesia in the Conservative ranks about the fact that the crisis in public confidence in food and the crisis in the agriculture industry were caused during their term in government.

The establishment of a food standards agency is essential after the food-related problems of the past 10 years or so and the resulting erosion of public confidence.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C707443", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 152.0, "ContributionID": 707443, "EditedText": "Will Bristow Muldoon give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Bristow Muldoon give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1931E120P189C707446", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Muldoon, Bristow", "ID": 1931, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Livingston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bristow Muldoon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bristow Muldoon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 158.0, "ContributionID": 707446, "EditedText": "I welcome the fact that Conservative members support the food standards agency, but no reference has been made to what caused the crisis. In the election campaign, the Conservatives talked about listening to the people of Scotland. They should have listened to the people of Scotland and accepted responsibility for this issue. Health scares in recent years—salmonella, listeria, E coli and new variant CJD—have caused ill-health, public concern and even death. That is why public confidence has been lost. We are starting the process of rebuilding public confidence. The food standards agency will be seen to be acting in the public's interest and defending public health. It is, I note, the delivery of another Labour manifesto commitment—perhaps that is why the SNP feels it necessary to move this amendment. The SNP's contribution, aside from its amendment, seems to be a reluctance to support a UK-wide agency. What exactly are SNP members suggesting? Are they suggesting that the best interests of the Scottish public are not served by the establishment of a UK-wide agency that will be able to avoid duplicating work—and needing to establish radically different regulations—each side of the border?", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the fact that Conservative members support the food standards agency, but no reference has been made to what caused the crisis. In the election campaign, the Conservatives talked about listening to the people of Scotland. They should have listened to the people of Scotland and accepted responsibility for this issue.

Health scares in recent years—salmonella, listeria, E coli and new variant CJD—have caused ill-health, public concern and even death. That is why public confidence has been lost. We are starting the process of rebuilding public confidence. The food standards agency will be seen to be acting in the public's interest and defending public health. It is, I note, the delivery of another Labour manifesto commitment—perhaps that is why the SNP feels it necessary to move this amendment.

The SNP's contribution, aside from its amendment, seems to be a reluctance to support a UK-wide agency. What exactly are SNP members suggesting? Are they suggesting that the best interests of the Scottish public are not served by the establishment of a UK-wide agency that will be able to avoid duplicating work—and needing to establish radically different regulations—each side of the border?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1893E47P78C707466", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnstone, Alex", "ID": 1893, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Johnstone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Johnstone (North-East Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 208.0, "ContributionID": 707466, "EditedText": "This is one of those days on which we all have something to celebrate. I hope that the arrival of the food standards agency in Scotland will have benefits for the public and for the food production industry. The confidence that that will bring to our industry is important and will be a major marker on the road to recovery of an industry that is in a perilous state. I spoke in the debate on 23 June to which Kay Ullrich referred. Having been accused of perhaps being over-supportive of the SNP, I took that opportunity to support the minister's motion—I remember that I positively gushed.", "EditedTextHTML": "This is one of those days on which we all have something to celebrate. I hope that the arrival of the food standards agency in Scotland will have benefits for the public and for the food production industry. The confidence that that will bring to our industry is important and will be a major marker on the road to recovery of an industry that is in a perilous state.

I spoke in the debate on 23 June to which Kay Ullrich referred. Having been accused of perhaps being over-supportive of the SNP, I took that opportunity to support the minister's motion—I remember that I positively gushed.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2090E83P266C707457", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAllion, Mr John", "ID": 2090, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dundee East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John McAllion", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McAllion: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 185.0, "ContributionID": 707457, "EditedText": "I have not got time for interventions. The honourable gentleman—sorry, Mr Hamilton is not an honourable gentleman. That term belongs to a different place—old habits die hard. We must have a uniform standard throughout the UK. Some of the big food distributors are located in Dundee; they distribute food throughout not only Scotland but England and Wales and cannot operate under different regimes. They can operate only to one standard and one regime. There must be a food standards agency for the United Kingdom, it must have a Scottish arm, and that Scottish arm must be located in Dundee.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have not got time for interventions. The honourable gentleman—sorry, Mr Hamilton is not an honourable gentleman. That term belongs to a different place—old habits die hard.

We must have a uniform standard throughout the UK. Some of the big food distributors are located in Dundee; they distribute food throughout not only Scotland but England and Wales and cannot operate under different regimes. They can operate only to one standard and one regime. There must be a food standards agency for the United Kingdom, it must have a Scottish arm, and that Scottish arm must be located in Dundee.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1770E82P108C707453", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Thomson, Elaine", "ID": 1770, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Thomson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Elaine Thomson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 175.0, "ContributionID": 707453, "EditedText": "I am quite happy to tell Fergus that we should continue with the ban until it is declared that it is safe to eat beef on the bone. I await that declaration from the chief medical officer. I particularly welcome the fact that we will finally have one body with the necessary authority and expertise to be the definitive voice on food and food safety. It will be impartial and objective, as the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food was not perceived to be during the BSE crisis. The food standards agency will be at arm's length from the Executive and will be seen as putting the interests of consumers first. Establishing a Scottish arm of the food standards agency, away from the centre of government, will establish its independence. The Scottish Parliament will be reiterating that it is a Parliament for the whole of Scotland—from the Mull of Galloway to Muckle Flugga—and not just the central belt. Food safety requires good science. Scotland is rich in that, and my corner—Aberdeen—more so than most. Aberdeen and the north-east has two universities and seven science institutes, at least two of which—the Rowett Research Institute and the Scottish Agricultural College at Craibstone— are in my constituency. We have 3,000 scientists and support staff in the area and the sound science base required to give the Scottish arm of the food standards agency authority and to help restore and develop consumer confidence in food. For the agency to work effectively, it must be able to build relationships with everyone with an interest in food, such as consumers, scientists, food shops and butchers, but particularly the primary processors and producers of food. Companies in the north-east process a third of Scotland's food and some 30 per cent of the country's food and drink exports—not including whisky. Seventy per cent of the UK fish catch is landed at the Scottish ports of Aberdeen, Peterhead and Fraserburgh. Almost half of the UK's fishing fleet is based in the north of Scotland. To restore confidence at all levels, it is essential that the Scottish arm of the FSA—wherever it is finally located—is given the best possible start. I believe that the case for it to be located in Aberdeen is unrivalled.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am quite happy to tell Fergus that we should continue with the ban until it is declared that it is safe to eat beef on the bone. I await that declaration from the chief medical officer.

I particularly welcome the fact that we will finally have one body with the necessary authority and expertise to be the definitive voice on food and food safety. It will be impartial and objective, as the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food was not perceived to be during the BSE crisis.

The food standards agency will be at arm's length from the Executive and will be seen as putting the interests of consumers first. Establishing a Scottish arm of the food standards agency, away from the centre of government, will establish its independence. The Scottish Parliament will be reiterating that it is a Parliament for the whole of Scotland—from the Mull of Galloway to Muckle Flugga—and not just the central belt.

Food safety requires good science. Scotland is rich in that, and my corner—Aberdeen—more so than most. Aberdeen and the north-east has two universities and seven science institutes, at least two of which—the Rowett Research Institute and the Scottish Agricultural College at Craibstone— are in my constituency. We have 3,000 scientists and support staff in the area and the sound science base required to give the Scottish arm of the food standards agency authority and to help restore and develop consumer confidence in food.

For the agency to work effectively, it must be able to build relationships with everyone with an interest in food, such as consumers, scientists, food shops and butchers, but particularly the primary processors and producers of food.

Companies in the north-east process a third of Scotland's food and some 30 per cent of the country's food and drink exports—not including whisky. Seventy per cent of the UK fish catch is landed at the Scottish ports of Aberdeen, Peterhead and Fraserburgh. Almost half of the UK's fishing fleet is based in the north of Scotland.

To restore confidence at all levels, it is essential that the Scottish arm of the FSA—wherever it is finally located—is given the best possible start. I believe that the case for it to be located in Aberdeen is unrivalled.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C707461", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Richard Simpson (Ochil) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 195.0, "ContributionID": 707461, "EditedText": "I begin by declaring that I continue to undertake some consultancy work, purely on medical issues, to companies that I believe have food interests that may relate to novel foods. I am not going to talk about location today. If the minister had seen fit to announce a shortlist of one, the debate would have been truncated. The important thing about the food standards agency is that the Labour party has kept its promise and instituted an important change. The Government is answering the questions of public concern about food safety, and in setting up a non-ministerial Government department it has created a substantially independent authority. It is also addressing the question of devolution by effectively setting up a separate executive body for Scotland with its own director and advisory committee on food safety. There are currently 12 advisory committees working on food safety and related topics. Hitherto, they have mostly been related to the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, although some are related to the Department of Health. The fact that many of them will soon relate to the FSA is extremely important. If we had set up our own food standards agency, as the Scottish National party originally wanted, the costs would have been enormous. The estimated cost was about £29 million. We would not have saved anything by having our own separate agency. It was a spurious argument which, I am glad to say, the SNP is moving away from—at least I hope it is. The advisory committees are of great importance and it is fundamental to the credibility of the agency that it interlocks with them. The fact that the agency will be involved in the appointment of chairmen to the various committees is very important.", "EditedTextHTML": "I begin by declaring that I continue to undertake some consultancy work, purely on medical issues, to companies that I believe have food interests that may relate to novel foods.

I am not going to talk about location today. If the minister had seen fit to announce a shortlist of one, the debate would have been truncated. The important thing about the food standards agency is that the Labour party has kept its promise and instituted an important change.

The Government is answering the questions of public concern about food safety, and in setting up a non-ministerial Government department it has created a substantially independent authority. It is also addressing the question of devolution by effectively setting up a separate executive body for Scotland with its own director and advisory committee on food safety.

There are currently 12 advisory committees working on food safety and related topics. Hitherto, they have mostly been related to the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, although some are related to the Department of Health. The fact that many of them will soon relate to the FSA is extremely important.

If we had set up our own food standards agency, as the Scottish National party originally wanted, the costs would have been enormous. The estimated cost was about £29 million. We would not have saved anything by having our own

separate agency. It was a spurious argument which, I am glad to say, the SNP is moving away from—at least I hope it is.

The advisory committees are of great importance and it is fundamental to the credibility of the agency that it interlocks with them. The fact that the agency will be involved in the appointment of chairmen to the various committees is very important.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1826E199P351C707465", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Smith, Margaret", "ID": 1826, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Smith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Margaret Smith (Edinburgh West) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 205.0, "ContributionID": 707465, "EditedText": "I welcome the minister's statement and the importance that the Executive gives to public health and food safety. Liberal Democrats have supported an independent food standards agency for many years; an agency is essential for public health and public confidence in food. We also welcome the decentralisation of jobs. I will not take part in the warfare that might break out between Dundee and Aberdeen. I am Convener of the Health and Community Care Committee, and my colleagues and I have seen how important food and public health issues are. We are all much more clued up on amnesic shellfish poisoning, having debated it with the minister for an hour and a half last week. Such attention is right. Such issues have an impact on people's confidence in the food that they eat, on their health and on those who make their living on the sea and on the land. We must learn from the failures of the past. I do not want to see any Scottish minister or MSP ramming burgers down children's throats or standing in front of rabbit hutches for photo opportunities. An independent food standards agency goes some way towards learning from the past, but genetically modified foods could be the issue that comes back to haunt us all and should be taken up as a matter of urgency. The Liberal Democrats welcome the delivery of our commitment that the agency should be paid for by general taxation, so that it is not a further burden on small rural businesses or on food producers. It could have cost them more than £4 million a year. I welcome the minister's clarification to me of that position. I also ask for confirmation that there will be a publicly available statement of the FSA's general objectives, practices and remit. Although we must be rigorous in our scrutiny of the membership of all public bodies, I echo comments made to us by the Scottish Food and Drink Federation that we must make sure that the membership of the agency comes from a wide area of relevant expertise. No one will be surprised to hear that, like Elaine Thomson, I think that food is one of life's joys. I believe that as a Parliament we have a duty to do everything we can to support our fishermen, farmers and food processors and to make sure that there is public confidence in food. I welcome the establishment of an independent food standards agency, which will go a long way to restoring public confidence in the food on which we all depend.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the minister's statement and the importance that the Executive gives to public health and food safety. Liberal Democrats have supported an independent food standards agency for many years; an agency is essential for public health and public confidence in food.

We also welcome the decentralisation of jobs. I will not take part in the warfare that might break out between Dundee and Aberdeen. I am Convener of the Health and Community Care Committee, and my colleagues and I have seen how important food and public health issues are. We are all much more clued up on amnesic shellfish poisoning, having debated it with the minister for an hour and a half last week. Such attention is right. Such issues have an impact on people's confidence in the food that they eat, on their health and on those who make their living on the sea and on the land.

We must learn from the failures of the past. I do not want to see any Scottish minister or MSP ramming burgers down children's throats or standing in front of rabbit hutches for photo opportunities. An independent food standards agency goes some way towards learning from the past, but genetically modified foods could be the issue that comes back to haunt us all and should be taken up as a matter of urgency.

The Liberal Democrats welcome the delivery of our commitment that the agency should be paid for by general taxation, so that it is not a further burden on small rural businesses or on food producers. It could have cost them more than £4 million a year. I welcome the minister's clarification to me of that position.

I also ask for confirmation that there will be a publicly available statement of the FSA's general objectives, practices and remit. Although we must be rigorous in our scrutiny of the membership of all public bodies, I echo comments made to us by the Scottish Food and Drink Federation that we must make sure that the membership of the agency comes from a wide area of relevant expertise.

No one will be surprised to hear that, like Elaine Thomson, I think that food is one of life's joys. I believe that as a Parliament we have a duty to do everything we can to support our fishermen, farmers and food processors and to make sure that there is public confidence in food.

I welcome the establishment of an independent food standards agency, which will go a long way to restoring public confidence in the food on which we all depend.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1893E47P78C707468", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnstone, Alex", "ID": 1893, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Johnstone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Johnstone: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 212.0, "ContributionID": 707468, "EditedText": "I clarify that the target of my gushing was the proposal, to which I was about to refer, that the food standards agency be run on a UK basis, rather than as separate English and Scottish organisations. I am glad that the suggestion that there should be a separate Scottish agency was not heeded. A UK standard is one of the great achievements of the proposal, as our food industry depends on not being required to jump over hurdles in Scotland that are not imposed in other parts of the UK. However, my temptation to gush is not quite as strong on this occasion. There is a commitment to food safety in the motion, and a reference to\"the action taken by the Scottish Executive to improve food standards\". That action should be considered in the light of the decisions that have been announced this week about funding for the Foresterhill laboratories. It is a great disappointment that, in the week that the food standards agency has been established, the future of the national reference laboratories has been called into question. Many members have paid tribute to their work. However, it is important to recognise and express gratitude for the decision, which was announced today, that the food standards agency will come to the north-east. I have to qualify that by saying that I am speaking entirely personally. I admit that I signed Mike Rumbles's motion requesting that the food standards agency be sited in Aberdeen. However, members will be aware that I am a list member for the north-east, so the decision to slip Dundee in at the last moment has thrown me. In my capacity as a north-east list member, I say that I hope that the best city wins.", "EditedTextHTML": "I clarify that the target of my gushing was the proposal, to which I was about to refer, that the food standards agency be run on a UK basis, rather than as separate English and Scottish organisations. I am glad that the suggestion that there should be a separate Scottish agency was not heeded. A UK standard is one of the great achievements of the proposal, as our food industry depends on not being required to jump over hurdles in Scotland that are not imposed in other parts of the UK.

However, my temptation to gush is not quite as strong on this occasion. There is a commitment to

food safety in the motion, and a reference to

\"the action taken by the Scottish Executive to improve food standards\".

That action should be considered in the light of the decisions that have been announced this week about funding for the Foresterhill laboratories. It is a great disappointment that, in the week that the food standards agency has been established, the future of the national reference laboratories has been called into question. Many members have paid tribute to their work.

However, it is important to recognise and express gratitude for the decision, which was announced today, that the food standards agency will come to the north-east. I have to qualify that by saying that I am speaking entirely personally. I admit that I signed Mike Rumbles's motion requesting that the food standards agency be sited in Aberdeen. However, members will be aware that I am a list member for the north-east, so the decision to slip Dundee in at the last moment has thrown me. In my capacity as a north-east list member, I say that I hope that the best city wins.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1893E47P78C707470", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnstone, Alex", "ID": 1893, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Johnstone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Johnstone: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 216.0, "ContributionID": 707470, "EditedText": "I have just had my grammar corrected—I am grateful to Kay Ullrich. I hope that the better city wins. One of the most important points that has been raised is that we need a food standards agency that does what it was set up to do, which is to trace food standards from plough to plate. We have had many arguments—small and great— about where public health ends and where rural affairs begin. People with an interest in either area have a role of some kind. Therefore, I back my colleagues' calls for representation for every area of the food industry that is involved with the food standards agency. We should ensure that there is genuine representation from plough to plate. Members have mentioned genetically modified organisms and beef on the bone. Those issues also fall close to the dividing line between public health and food production considerations. It is important that we put down a marker and ensure that the food standards agency has a role to play. Public health is paramount; it is the highest priority for everyone in the chamber. However, public health issues—of which genetically modified crops and beef on the bone are prime examples— have a strong and direct impact on those of us who live and work in rural industries, by which I mean both the fishing and the farming industries. For that reason, it is important to note what many people have said in the debate—both sides of the divide should have an input.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have just had my grammar corrected—I am grateful to Kay Ullrich. I hope that the better city wins.

One of the most important points that has been raised is that we need a food standards agency that does what it was set up to do, which is to trace food standards from plough to plate. We have had many arguments—small and great— about where public health ends and where rural affairs begin. People with an interest in either area have a role of some kind. Therefore, I back my colleagues' calls for representation for every area of the food industry that is involved with the food standards agency. We should ensure that there is genuine representation from plough to plate.

Members have mentioned genetically modified organisms and beef on the bone. Those issues also fall close to the dividing line between public health and food production considerations. It is important that we put down a marker and ensure that the food standards agency has a role to play.

Public health is paramount; it is the highest priority for everyone in the chamber. However, public health issues—of which genetically modified crops and beef on the bone are prime examples— have a strong and direct impact on those of us who live and work in rural industries, by which I mean both the fishing and the farming industries. For that reason, it is important to note what many people have said in the debate—both sides of the divide should have an input.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1893E47P78C707472", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnstone, Alex", "ID": 1893, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Johnstone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Johnstone: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 220.0, "ContributionID": 707472, "EditedText": "I do not wish to comment directly on that. However, the issue of GM foods has been identified by the public and the media as being of high priority. There are many differing standpoints in the debate and we will have an opportunity to develop them over the long term. One standpoint that I have already developed is my belief in the importance of allowing the world- beating research establishments in Scotland the opportunity to become involved in future research into GM foods. Some members would like that research to be driven out of Scotland entirely. I accept—conditionally—much of what the minister said earlier. I offer her my qualified support for the motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not wish to comment directly on that. However, the issue of GM foods has been identified by the public and the media as being of high priority. There are many differing standpoints in the debate and we will have an opportunity to develop them over the long term. One standpoint that I have already developed is my belief in the importance of allowing the world- beating research establishments in Scotland the opportunity to become involved in future research into GM foods. Some members would like that research to be driven out of Scotland entirely.

I accept—conditionally—much of what the minister said earlier. I offer her my qualified support for the motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1926E190P479C707473", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Adam, Brian", "ID": 1926, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Adam", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Brian Adam (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 223.0, "ContributionID": 707473, "EditedText": "I should declare an interest: as Mrs Ullrich said, the two major outbreaks of food poisoning in Scotland in the past 35 years have been dealt with by the laboratories in Aberdeen, and I had the privilege until very recently to work in both of them. I therefore have some knowledge of the subject, although I did not work directly in bacteriology or microbiology. I welcome the tone of today's debate and I hope that the discussion will continue as the Parliament evolves. We have agreed on many things; I am delighted that we have agreed on the north-east as the site for the food standards agency. SNP members would claim the credit, but others may wish to dispute that, as is their privilege. Both Mrs Ullrich and Mr Harper—in his particular way—have called for a debate on GM foods, and there seems to be general support for that. Mr Macdonald has declared that he will not vote for Mrs Ullrich's amendment, but he endorsed her calls for the issues associated with the laboratories at Foresterhill to be addressed. Indeed, Mrs Ullrich has told me that her only disappointment is that her call for there to be no turf war between Aberdeen and Dundee has been ignored. Even I have ignored it; but before anyone from the Administration has a go at me, my position has been clear since before I was elected to this Parliament—I support the bid from the city of Aberdeen. However, like Kate MacLean, recognise that there is a case for Dundee. I hope that Aberdeen is successful, but if it is not and Dundee is, so be it. I would say to Margaret Smith that there are significant problems with shellfish poisoning and much of the work on that is being done in the Marine Laboratory at Aberdeen. I would like to continue by covering some of the many points that have been made, although I cannot cover them all in the limited time available. Some members laughed about the composition of the board of the food standards agency and some of the advice given on that. The fact that the agency is to be independent is to be welcomed. That independence is crucial. I say to those who have been pointing fingers and asking why there has been a call for a separate agency in Scotland that I am delighted to welcome your conversion to the idea that independence is good.", "EditedTextHTML": "I should declare an interest: as Mrs Ullrich said, the two major outbreaks of food poisoning in Scotland in the past 35 years have been dealt with by the laboratories in Aberdeen, and I had the privilege until very recently to work in both of them. I therefore have some knowledge of the subject, although I did not work directly in bacteriology or microbiology.

I welcome the tone of today's debate and I hope that the discussion will continue as the Parliament evolves. We have agreed on many things; I am delighted that we have agreed on the north-east as the site for the food standards agency. SNP members would claim the credit, but others may wish to dispute that, as is their privilege.

Both Mrs Ullrich and Mr Harper—in his particular way—have called for a debate on GM foods, and there seems to be general support for that. Mr Macdonald has declared that he will not vote for Mrs Ullrich's amendment, but he endorsed her calls for the issues associated with the laboratories at Foresterhill to be addressed. Indeed, Mrs Ullrich has told me that her only disappointment is that her call for there to be no turf war between Aberdeen and Dundee has been ignored. Even I have ignored it; but before anyone from the Administration has a go at me, my position has been clear since before I was elected to this Parliament—I support the bid from the city of Aberdeen. However, like Kate MacLean, recognise that there is a case for Dundee. I hope that Aberdeen is successful, but if it is not and Dundee is, so be it.

I would say to Margaret Smith that there are significant problems with shellfish poisoning and much of the work on that is being done in the Marine Laboratory at Aberdeen.

I would like to continue by covering some of the many points that have been made, although I cannot cover them all in the limited time available.

Some members laughed about the composition of the board of the food standards agency and some of the advice given on that. The fact that the agency is to be independent is to be welcomed. That independence is crucial.

I say to those who have been pointing fingers and asking why there has been a call for a separate agency in Scotland that I am delighted to welcome your conversion to the idea that independence is good.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1926E190P479C707479", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Adam, Brian", "ID": 1926, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Adam", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Brian Adam: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 235.0, "ContributionID": 707479, "EditedText": "I will give way to Dr Simpson when I have developed my point. I have considerable concerns about how advisory groups work. The minister said in her remarks that she wanted such groups to be open, accountable and inclusive—I may not have the phrasing quite right, but that was the general tenor of her remarks. I am not convinced that current arrangements provide that, which is something that I hope the new body will change. I welcome the intention to make the food standards agency open and accessible and I hope that that will indeed be the case.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will give way to Dr Simpson when I have developed my point.

I have considerable concerns about how advisory groups work. The minister said in her remarks that she wanted such groups to be open, accountable and inclusive—I may not have the phrasing quite right, but that was the general tenor of her remarks. I am not convinced that current arrangements provide that, which is something that I hope the new body will change. I welcome the intention to make the food standards agency open and accessible and I hope that that will indeed be the case.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1926E190P479C707487", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Adam, Brian", "ID": 1926, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Adam", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Brian Adam rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 252.0, "ContributionID": 707487, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2033E106P139C707488", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gray, Iain", "ID": 2033, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Pentlands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Iain Gray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Iain Gray: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 254.0, "ContributionID": 707488, "EditedText": "No, it is getting too late to take interventions. We have taken action. We have undertaken two consultations with the aim of improving public safety. The first is on the proposal to remove unpasteurised drinking milk and the second is on proposals to reduce, through the butcher licensing system, the risk of cross-contamination. Heartening signs from recent food poisoning statistics indicate some success in reducing the incidence of E coli and salmonella. However, that is only a sign of encouragement and we will not let up in our determination to keep making improvements. That is why we are prepared to take hard decisions and to demand the highest standards of research.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, it is getting too late to take interventions.

We have taken action. We have undertaken two consultations with the aim of improving public safety. The first is on the proposal to remove unpasteurised drinking milk and the second is on proposals to reduce, through the butcher licensing system, the risk of cross-contamination. Heartening signs from recent food poisoning statistics indicate some success in reducing the incidence of E coli and salmonella. However, that is only a sign of encouragement and we will not let up in our determination to keep making improvements. That is why we are prepared to take hard decisions and to demand the highest standards of research.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2033E106P139C707494", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gray, Iain", "ID": 2033, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Pentlands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Iain Gray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Iain Gray: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 266.0, "ContributionID": 707494, "EditedText": "I have already said that it is too late to give way. Interruption. Concerns have not been addressed and contracts should be reviewed. That advice was given after the group's consideration of the ARL annual report submitted on 31 July 1999. We have to be clearer still. Despite the expert working group's advice, there has been no cut in funding and no laboratory has been closed. There has simply been a review of specific contracts.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have already said that it is too late to give way. [Interruption.] Concerns have not been addressed and contracts should be reviewed. That advice was given after the group's consideration of the ARL annual report submitted on 31 July 1999.

We have to be clearer still. Despite the expert working group's advice, there has been no cut in funding and no laboratory has been closed. There has simply been a review of specific contracts.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2033E106P139C707496", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gray, Iain", "ID": 2033, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Pentlands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Iain Gray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Iain Gray: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 270.0, "ContributionID": 707496, "EditedText": "I have made it clear three times that I will take no more interventions. There has been further confusion about campylobacter work. Again, we have to be clear about the matter. There is consensus in the public health community that the data being produced by the reference lab are of little public health use. It is widely agreed, north and south of the border, that a better typing scheme is required. Several members referred to an increase in research in England; that research is on improving the typing scheme. Further research on campylobacter is still being done by the research laboratory in Aberdeen that is run by Professor Pennington. In other words, there are two different kinds of research, which have been confused—deliberately or otherwise—during the debate. For clarity, our expert advice is the advice that has been followed. I said that the Executive would not shirk difficult decisions. There has been much talk about the beef-on-the-bone ban, including some play on the risk and some talk about the consequences. Dr Richard Simpson made it absolutely clear that the risk is small. However, the consequence is a new and terrible disease. Our clear, consistent and continuing advice from the chief medical officer— of Scotland, to answer an earlier question—is that, at the moment, there is no evidence to suggest that the ban should be lifted. The partnership agreement document, which was presented to and agreed by this Parliament, is clear: we will lift the beef-on-the-bone ban when the medical advice says that we should. That remains the case. cannot imagine a clearer and more responsible position, in the aftermath of BSE, for a Scottish Executive that is trying to rebuild confidence, both here and in Europe, in our food and in the industry. The Executive's position—on GM foods and on food safety issues—is that the health ministers take the lead. We have heard calls today for a further debate on GM organisms and we will consider those calls. In conclusion, we are serious about improvements in food safety; the establishment of the food standards agency is a major plank in that policy. We will not sit back and wait for improvements to happen. We are committed to restoring consumer confidence in our food and the only way in which we can do that is to put public health first, last and always. We will do that.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have made it clear three times that I will take no more interventions.

There has been further confusion about campylobacter work. Again, we have to be clear about the matter. There is consensus in the public health community that the data being produced by the reference lab are of little public health use. It is widely agreed, north and south of the border, that a better typing scheme is required. Several members referred to an increase in research in England; that research is on improving the typing scheme. Further research on campylobacter is still being done by the research laboratory in Aberdeen that is run by Professor Pennington. In other words, there are two different kinds of research, which have been confused—deliberately or otherwise—during the debate. For clarity, our expert advice is the advice that has been followed.

I said that the Executive would not shirk difficult decisions. There has been much talk about the beef-on-the-bone ban, including some play on the risk and some talk about the consequences. Dr Richard Simpson made it absolutely clear that the risk is small. However, the consequence is a new and terrible disease. Our clear, consistent and continuing advice from the chief medical officer— of Scotland, to answer an earlier question—is that, at the moment, there is no evidence to suggest that the ban should be lifted. The partnership agreement document, which was presented to and agreed by this Parliament, is clear: we will lift the beef-on-the-bone ban when the medical advice says that we should. That remains the case. cannot imagine a clearer and more responsible position, in the aftermath of BSE, for a Scottish Executive that is trying to rebuild confidence, both here and in Europe, in our food and in the industry.

The Executive's position—on GM foods and on food safety issues—is that the health ministers take the lead. We have heard calls today for a further debate on GM organisms and we will consider those calls.

In conclusion, we are serious about improvements in food safety; the establishment of the food standards agency is a major plank in that policy. We will not sit back and wait for improvements to happen. We are committed to restoring consumer confidence in our food and the only way in which we can do that is to put public health first, last and always. We will do that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "C707503", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Lead Committees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26797, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 276.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 276.0, "ID": 26797, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 282.0, "ContributionID": 707503, "EditedText": "The Health and Community Care Committee to consider The Food (Animals and Animal Products from Belgium) (Emergency Control) (No. 2) (Scotland) Order 1999 (SSI 1999/32);", "EditedTextHTML": "The Health and Community Care Committee to consider The Food (Animals and Animal Products from Belgium) (Emergency Control) (No. 2) (Scotland) Order 1999 (SSI 1999/32);

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C707505", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26798, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 284.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 284.0, "ID": 26798, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 286.0, "ContributionID": 707505, "EditedText": "The first question is, that motion S1M-142, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "The first question is, that motion S1M-142, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "C707509", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26798, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 284.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 284.0, "ID": 26798, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 291.0, "ContributionID": 707509, "EditedText": "The Transport and Environment Committee to consider The Environmental Impact Assessment (Forestry) (Scotland) Regulations 1999 (SSI 1999/43).", "EditedTextHTML": "The Transport and Environment Committee to consider The Environmental Impact Assessment (Forestry) (Scotland) Regulations 1999 (SSI 1999/43).

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5452621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C707510", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26798, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 284.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 284.0, "ID": 26798, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 292.0, "ContributionID": 707510, "EditedText": "The second question is, that motion S1M-150, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "The second question is, that motion S1M-150, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "C707512", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26798, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 284.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 284.0, "ID": 26798, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 295.0, "ContributionID": 707512, "EditedText": "That the Parliament agrees the following designations of lead committees—", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament agrees the following designations of lead committees—

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" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "C707518", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26798, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 284.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 284.0, "ID": 26798, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 304.0, "ContributionID": 707518, "EditedText": "FOR Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)AGAINST Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab) Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab) Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab) ABSTENTIONS Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)

AGAINST

Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)

ABSTENTIONS

Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)

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" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "C707528", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Wigtown", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26799, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 316.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 316.0, "ID": 26799, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 319.0, "ContributionID": 707528, "EditedText": "Motion debated,", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion debated,

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1888E265P358C707530", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Wigtown", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26799, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 316.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 316.0, "ID": 26799, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morgan, Alasdair", "ID": 1888, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Galloway and Upper Nithsdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morgan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alasdair Morgan (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 322.0, "ContributionID": 707530, "EditedText": "It is with great pleasure that I speak to the motion. It might appear somewhat anodyne to some, but this motion goes to the heart of the economic well-being of the Machars. I am glad that it has been selected for debate and that it has been supported by other members. Dumfries and Galloway is advertised by the local tourist board as the \"best-kept secret in Scotland\". That is not, perhaps, the most upbeat or confident slogan for a promotional campaign, but it is an accurate reflection of the reality that sees tourists from south of the border and from abroad drawn, as if magnetically, north to Edinburgh and the Highlands. As if there were a no-left-turn sign on the M74 at Gretna, tourists carry on, ignorant of the existence of the south-west. If the south-west as a whole is somewhat neglected, that goes in spades for the western peninsulas of Galloway, the Rhinns and the Machars of Wigtownshire. The ancient burgh of Wigtown lies in the heart of the Machars of Galloway. It is a small town with a population of just over 1,000 and is the former county town of Wigtownshire. Successive, if not successful, local government reorganisations have seen political and civic power removed to larger centres such as Stranraer and Dumfries. The town now falls into the Newton Stewart travel-to-work area, which consistently records one of the highest unemployment rates of any travel-to-work area in the country. The latest figures, which were issued only this morning, show that the area is fifth highest—an unenviable position. Even for those in work it is an area of low pay. The latest low-pay figures, released by the Transport and General Workers Union yesterday, show that, in the whole of Great Britain, Dumfries and Galloway has the highest percentage of workers, some 50 per cent, who earn less than £5 per hour. Presiding Officer, time does not permit the unravelling of a sheaf of other statistics that would show that deprivation is alive and well in the heart of Wigtownshire. Despite that, Wigtownshire has been removed recently from the assisted area map, with the inference being that the area has no potential for growth. In that context, it is vital that it does not lose out again in the forthcoming announcement on European structural funds. I turn now to the concept of a book town. The first acknowledged book town opened in Hay-on- Wye near the Welsh border in 1961. There are now around 20 book towns throughout the world, including Redu in Belgium, Becherel in northern France and Stillwater in the United States. Successful book towns are not simply towns that happen to have one or two bookshops—their trade in books is a central point in the life of the town. With that particular focus on the book trade, they attract visitors from all over the world and help to regenerate fragile rural economies. That happens not only through over-the-counter and postal sales but through the exponentially expanding world of internet sales, or e-commerce as it is known to buffs, which is set to be a great leveller of the playing field between rural and urban areas. Towards the end of 1996, Scottish Enterprise built on the developing interest in a book town for Scotland. Interested towns were invited to make an application to be considered as Scotland's official book town. On the basis of the different applications and presentations that were submitted, there was a clear majority view on Scottish Enterprise's judging panel that Wigtown offered the greatest potential as a national book town development in Scotland. The Wigtown book town was launched in May 1998. I do not want to go into the reasons behind that decision; suffice it to say that the decision was taken, and that I think that it was the correct decision. Since then, there is no doubt that that decision has helped the economic regeneration of the town. Shops and buildings that were recently derelict or out of use are now being used once again. Thirteen bookshops that cater for all sorts of different interests have already been established, and two further bookshops—that is the latest figure that I have—are due to open later this year; one, I believe, within the next fortnight. Jobs have been created in the book trade directly, or safeguarded or created in other tourism-related businesses. Despite that, considerable ignorance remains of the fact that Wigtown is Scotland's national book town, or even that Scotland has a national book town. Just before I came across to the chamber this afternoon, I had to answer a question from a BBC researcher, who asked me where Galloway is located. It was difficult to explain to her where Galloway is in Scotland, given her level of ignorance. After I lodged the motion that led to this debate it became obvious to me that several colleagues did not know that Scotland had a national book town in Galloway, although they do know where Galloway is. In remedying that ignorance people should, perhaps, ignore the other attraction that is taking place next weekend—the SNP conference in Inverness—and attend instead the first Scottish book town festival, to be held in Wigtown between 24 and 26 September. After the debate, members can help themselves to the brochures that are available. The Scottish Enterprise report on the book town proposals states: \"Wigtown's emergence as the location for the national book town of Scotland provides, we believe, not just a major opportunity for the town and its immediate environs, but for Dumfries and Galloway, and will also contribute to the tourism profile of Scotland as a whole.\" The report continues:\"The rate at which international book towns are now developing means that the highest priority should be put upon making a Scotland book town a success so that Scotland can be part of what is fast becoming\"— and this is quite a mouthful— \"a major international rural cultural tourism network.\"It is not exactly snappy, but it is important. That is what you get from Scottish Enterprise sometimes. The success of the book town thus far has been in no small measure due to the enthusiastic work of local people, some of whom are here today, as well as the involvement of the local council and the enterprise company. I hope that ministers will give a commitment to continue to work with local people and those agencies to aid the further development of the book town, which is still in a relatively early and fragile state. I would also like to stress, echoing the views of Scottish Enterprise, that this is not just a narrow constituency matter but one that is important for Scotland as a whole because Wigtown is Scotland's international book town. Last week at question time, the minister who will reply to this debate assured me that the new tourism strategy would have the boosting of tourism in remoter areas as one of its objectives. The importance of the book town locally, nationally and internationally should therefore be taken into account by the Executive in developing such a strategy. Given that Scotland's First Minister is a self-confessed bibliophile—which is perhaps the only confession that a minister can safely make—I hope that he agrees. Despite my optimism about the future of the book town, Wigtown is not without its difficulties, and it is now, when it is in its formative years, that it needs Government support to ensure that it succeeds. Here is where I begin a small shopping list. High on the list of difficulties is the run-down state of Wigtown's county buildings, part of the municipal inheritance of the town which has suffered from years of short-sighted neglect and a lack of basic maintenance, to the extent that they are now in a dangerous condition and are surrounded by scaffolding. Those superb buildings, the crowning glory of a magnificently wide street, are an excellent asset for the community and for book-town-related events—or at least could be. I would appreciate a commitment from ministers that they will assist in trying to pull together a suitable package to ensure the complete restoration of the buildings. The final item on my short list of modest requests derives from the fact that even in the age of the internet, accessibility is still a key factor in commercial success. The badly needed upgrade to the A75 Euroroute would go far to making Wigtown more accessible to the rest of Britain and to Ireland, from where the tourist board seeks to gain a lot of customers. I know that in theory I could continue for another 10 minutes or so, but other members wish to contribute so I will bring my remarks to a close. To the best of my knowledge, if the Parliament today gives its official backing to the book town it would be the first time that any national book town had achieved the backing of a national Parliament. The backing of Scotland's Parliament for Scotland's book town not only would offer moral support to the area and to all the people who have worked so hard to make the project a success, but would be in line with Scottish Enterprise's call for the success of the book town to be a high priority, as it would benefit all of Scotland. I urge all members to support this motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is with great pleasure that I speak to the motion. It might appear somewhat anodyne to some, but this motion goes to the heart of the economic well-being of the Machars. I am glad that it has been selected for debate and that it has been supported by other members.

Dumfries and Galloway is advertised by the local tourist board as the \"best-kept secret in Scotland\". That is not, perhaps, the most upbeat or confident slogan for a promotional campaign, but it is an accurate reflection of the reality that sees tourists from south of the border and from abroad drawn, as if magnetically, north to Edinburgh and the Highlands. As if there were a no-left-turn sign on the M74 at Gretna, tourists carry on, ignorant of the existence of the south-west.

If the south-west as a whole is somewhat neglected, that goes in spades for the western peninsulas of Galloway, the Rhinns and the Machars of Wigtownshire. The ancient burgh of Wigtown lies in the heart of the Machars of Galloway. It is a small town with a population of just over 1,000 and is the former county town of Wigtownshire. Successive, if not successful, local government reorganisations have seen political and civic power removed to larger centres such as Stranraer and Dumfries.

The town now falls into the Newton Stewart travel-to-work area, which consistently records one of the highest unemployment rates of any travel-to-work area in the country. The latest figures, which were issued only this morning, show that the area is fifth highest—an unenviable position. Even for those in work it is an area of low pay. The latest low-pay figures, released by the Transport and General Workers Union yesterday, show that, in the whole of Great Britain, Dumfries and Galloway has the highest percentage of workers, some 50 per cent, who earn less than £5 per hour.

Presiding Officer, time does not permit the unravelling of a sheaf of other statistics that would show that deprivation is alive and well in the heart of Wigtownshire. Despite that, Wigtownshire has been removed recently from the assisted area map, with the inference being that the area has no potential for growth. In that context, it is vital that it does not lose out again in the forthcoming announcement on European structural funds.

I turn now to the concept of a book town. The first acknowledged book town opened in Hay-on- Wye near the Welsh border in 1961. There are now around 20 book towns throughout the world, including Redu in Belgium, Becherel in northern France and Stillwater in the United States. Successful book towns are not simply towns that happen to have one or two bookshops—their trade in books is a central point in the life of the town. With that particular focus on the book trade, they attract visitors from all over the world and help to regenerate fragile rural economies. That happens not only through over-the-counter and postal sales but through the exponentially expanding world of internet sales, or e-commerce as it is known to buffs, which is set to be a great leveller of the playing field between rural and urban areas.

Towards the end of 1996, Scottish Enterprise built on the developing interest in a book town for Scotland. Interested towns were invited to make an application to be considered as Scotland's official book town. On the basis of the different applications and presentations that were submitted, there was a clear majority view on Scottish Enterprise's judging panel that Wigtown offered the greatest potential as a national book town development in Scotland. The Wigtown book town was launched in May 1998. I do not want to go into the reasons behind that decision; suffice it to say that the decision was taken, and that I think that it was the correct decision.

Since then, there is no doubt that that decision has helped the economic regeneration of the town. Shops and buildings that were recently derelict or out of use are now being used once again. Thirteen bookshops that cater for all sorts of different interests have already been established, and two further bookshops—that is the latest figure that I have—are due to open later this year; one, I believe, within the next fortnight. Jobs have been created in the book trade directly, or safeguarded or created in other tourism-related businesses.

Despite that, considerable ignorance remains of the fact that Wigtown is Scotland's national book town, or even that Scotland has a national book town. Just before I came across to the chamber this afternoon, I had to answer a question from a BBC researcher, who asked me where Galloway

is located. It was difficult to explain to her where Galloway is in Scotland, given her level of ignorance. After I lodged the motion that led to this debate it became obvious to me that several colleagues did not know that Scotland had a national book town in Galloway, although they do know where Galloway is. In remedying that ignorance people should, perhaps, ignore the other attraction that is taking place next weekend—the SNP conference in Inverness—and attend instead the first Scottish book town festival, to be held in Wigtown between 24 and 26 September. After the debate, members can help themselves to the brochures that are available.

The Scottish Enterprise report on the book town proposals states:

\"Wigtown's emergence as the location for the national book town of Scotland provides, we believe, not just a major opportunity for the town and its immediate environs, but for Dumfries and Galloway, and will also contribute to the tourism profile of Scotland as a whole.\"

The report continues:

\"The rate at which international book towns are now developing means that the highest priority should be put upon making a Scotland book town a success so that Scotland can be part of what is fast becoming\"— and this is quite a mouthful—

\"a major international rural cultural tourism network.\"

It is not exactly snappy, but it is important. That is what you get from Scottish Enterprise sometimes.

The success of the book town thus far has been in no small measure due to the enthusiastic work of local people, some of whom are here today, as well as the involvement of the local council and the enterprise company. I hope that ministers will give a commitment to continue to work with local people and those agencies to aid the further development of the book town, which is still in a relatively early and fragile state. I would also like to stress, echoing the views of Scottish Enterprise, that this is not just a narrow constituency matter but one that is important for Scotland as a whole because Wigtown is Scotland's international book town.

Last week at question time, the minister who will reply to this debate assured me that the new tourism strategy would have the boosting of tourism in remoter areas as one of its objectives. The importance of the book town locally, nationally and internationally should therefore be taken into account by the Executive in developing such a strategy. Given that Scotland's First Minister is a self-confessed bibliophile—which is perhaps the only confession that a minister can safely make—I hope that he agrees.

Despite my optimism about the future of the book town, Wigtown is not without its difficulties, and it is now, when it is in its formative years, that it needs Government support to ensure that it succeeds. Here is where I begin a small shopping list. High on the list of difficulties is the run-down state of Wigtown's county buildings, part of the municipal inheritance of the town which has suffered from years of short-sighted neglect and a lack of basic maintenance, to the extent that they are now in a dangerous condition and are surrounded by scaffolding. Those superb buildings, the crowning glory of a magnificently wide street, are an excellent asset for the community and for book-town-related events—or at least could be. I would appreciate a commitment from ministers that they will assist in trying to pull together a suitable package to ensure the complete restoration of the buildings.

The final item on my short list of modest requests derives from the fact that even in the age of the internet, accessibility is still a key factor in commercial success. The badly needed upgrade to the A75 Euroroute would go far to making Wigtown more accessible to the rest of Britain and to Ireland, from where the tourist board seeks to gain a lot of customers.

I know that in theory I could continue for another 10 minutes or so, but other members wish to contribute so I will bring my remarks to a close. To the best of my knowledge, if the Parliament today gives its official backing to the book town it would be the first time that any national book town had achieved the backing of a national Parliament. The backing of Scotland's Parliament for Scotland's book town not only would offer moral support to the area and to all the people who have worked so hard to make the project a success, but would be in line with Scottish Enterprise's call for the success of the book town to be a high priority, as it would benefit all of Scotland. I urge all members to support this motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1962E35P56C707532", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Wigtown", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26799, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 316.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 316.0, "ID": 26799, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mundell, David", "ID": 1962, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Mundell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David Mundell (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 327.0, "ContributionID": 707532, "EditedText": "I congratulate Alasdair on bringing the book town to the attention of the Parliament and on, once again, drawing attention to Dumfries and Galloway. As he said, it is an area that sometimes is overlooked. Someone described it to me recently as the gap on the map, because many people think that the Borders come over to the M74 and that Ayrshire comes down to the coast, yet in the south-west we have our own distinct area and culture. The book town is an example of an innovative and exciting way to look for economic development. We certainly need to regenerate the Dumfries and Galloway area owing to the difficulties that we suffered in farming and to the decline in manufacturing industry. When we consider the need to regenerate an area people tend to suggest standard projects, whereas the book town is an innovative and far-sighted attempt to bring economic development to the area. That is replicated by the other project which I know Dr Murray, other members present and I are keen to pursue: that is, the Crichton university of southern Scotland. Those bold and imaginative projects add to the economic development and to the cultural strength of the area. I am proud of the book town. I will certainly attend, as in my new guise I am no longer allowed to attend the SNP conference. As I have said before, it was always my favourite. Reading from the list of the attractions that will be available at this year's book festival, from 24 to 26 September, Rhona, one of the great delights will be \"a very special ice-cream factory offering dairy delights from Cream O'Galloway.\" For the non-bibliophiles among us, that is a positive attraction. I am pleased to support Alasdair Morgan's motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "I congratulate Alasdair on bringing the book town to the attention of the Parliament and on, once again, drawing attention to Dumfries and Galloway. As he said, it is an area that sometimes is overlooked. Someone described it to me recently as the gap on the map, because many people think that the Borders come over to the M74 and that Ayrshire comes down to the coast, yet in the south-west we have our own distinct area and culture.

The book town is an example of an innovative and exciting way to look for economic development. We certainly need to regenerate the Dumfries and Galloway area owing to the

difficulties that we suffered in farming and to the decline in manufacturing industry. When we consider the need to regenerate an area people tend to suggest standard projects, whereas the book town is an innovative and far-sighted attempt to bring economic development to the area.

That is replicated by the other project which I know Dr Murray, other members present and I are keen to pursue: that is, the Crichton university of southern Scotland. Those bold and imaginative projects add to the economic development and to the cultural strength of the area. I am proud of the book town. I will certainly attend, as in my new guise I am no longer allowed to attend the SNP conference. As I have said before, it was always my favourite. Reading from the list of the attractions that will be available at this year's book festival, from 24 to 26 September, Rhona, one of the great delights will be

\"a very special ice-cream factory offering dairy delights from Cream O'Galloway.\"

For the non-bibliophiles among us, that is a positive attraction. I am pleased to support Alasdair Morgan's motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1889E118P162C707535", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Wigtown", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26799, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 316.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 316.0, "ID": 26799, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morrison, Mr Alasdair", "ID": 1889, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Western Isles" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morrison", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Highlands and Islands and Gaelic (Mr Alasdair Morrison): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 336.0, "ContributionID": 707535, "EditedText": "Like other members, I congratulate Alasdair Morgan on securing a debate on this issue, although I must decline his kind invitation to Inverness.", "EditedTextHTML": "Like other members, I congratulate Alasdair Morgan on securing a debate on this issue, although I must decline his kind invitation to Inverness.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1889E118P162C707537", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Wigtown", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26799, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 316.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 316.0, "ID": 26799, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morrison, Mr Alasdair", "ID": 1889, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Western Isles" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morrison", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Morrison: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 340.0, "ContributionID": 707537, "EditedText": "I will give you a written response on that, Margaret. I have no hesitation in joining all members in offering the full support of the Parliament for the future growth and development of Wigtown as Scotland's acknowledged book town. In May 1998, Donald Dewar, as the Secretary of State for Scotland, was similarly pleased to offer support to Wigtown's book town committee. He said that the designation of book town was a marvellous and well merited achievement in the face of strong competition from other towns and that it would enhance Wigtown's reputation as a place to visit and live in. I am delighted to add to that and to recognise the progress that the project has made and will continue to make. The past year and a half have seen the venture go from strength to strength, which is a credit to everyone involved. There can be few better examples of how an initiative founded on the commitment and expertise of the community can, with the right support, develop from a simple idea to the showpiece venture that Wigtown has set its heart on becoming. These are early days for the venture and none of us has any illusions about the need to encourage the successful regeneration of a rural area that has had to cope with a legacy of economic decline. The Executive is in no way complacent about the challenges that the Machars have had to face and will continue to face. We are committed to recognising and tackling the challenges that are presented by decline in rural areas. We have recognised that social exclusion is significant in rural, as well as urban, areas. When I consider the successes that have been achieved in establishing Wigtown's reputation and in building up associated businesses, even in the short time since the book town project's inception, I am sure that the initiative is in good hands and is starting to make a substantial contribution to the regeneration of the Machars. Although the book town project understandably draws to some extent on best practice elsewhere—notably, as has been mentioned, in Hay-on-Wye, whose designation as a book town dates back to 1961—many of those who are involved in Wigtown have been keen to emphasise their commitment to making the book town a place for Scottish authors and booklovers: a literary Mecca, if you like. The targets that the book town project has set itself are ambitious, but in my view they are achievable. The successful implementation of the development plan should result in the eventual establishment of 40 book-related businesses, and the initiative aims to attract 42,000 additional visitors to the town each year. I am delighted that considerable progress towards meeting those targets has already been made. Already, 16 book- related businesses have become established in the town and several associated business development ventures are being pursued with the assistance of cash that we are making available through the self-starters programme operated by Dumfries and Galloway Enterprise and with support from Groundbase. Taken together, that is welcome news for Wigtown—it means new jobs, more tourists and increased business for existing companies. I am sure that Alasdair is well aware that the origins of Wigtown's designation as Scotland's book town lie in a joint research exercise that was funded by Scottish Enterprise and Strathclyde University, with support from the Scottish Tourist Board, to identify the potential for a book town in Scotland along the lines of Hay-on-Wye and other examples in Europe. Five potential locations had shown an interest in being chosen and Wigtown triumphed over its competitors in May 1997 as the most appropriate choice. The town was felt to be the right size, it is set in a scenically attractive area and it possessed existing businesses and local expertise that the initiative could build on. Since then, Scottish Enterprise, Dumfries and Galloway Enterprise, Dumfries and Galloway Council and Dumfries and Galloway Tourist Board have all been working closely with the Wigtown book town committee to ascertain the scope for helping it to achieve its aims.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will give you a written response on that, Margaret.

I have no hesitation in joining all members in offering the full support of the Parliament for the future growth and development of Wigtown as Scotland's acknowledged book town. In May 1998, Donald Dewar, as the Secretary of State for Scotland, was similarly pleased to offer support to Wigtown's book town committee. He said that the designation of book town was a marvellous and well merited achievement in the face of strong competition from other towns and that it would enhance Wigtown's reputation as a place to visit and live in.

I am delighted to add to that and to recognise the progress that the project has made and will continue to make. The past year and a half have seen the venture go from strength to strength, which is a credit to everyone involved. There can be few better examples of how an initiative founded on the commitment and expertise of the community can, with the right support, develop from a simple idea to the showpiece venture that Wigtown has set its heart on becoming.

These are early days for the venture and none of us has any illusions about the need to encourage the successful regeneration of a rural area that has had to cope with a legacy of economic decline. The Executive is in no way complacent about the challenges that the Machars have had to face and will continue to face. We are committed to recognising and tackling the challenges that are presented by decline in rural areas. We have recognised that social exclusion is significant in rural, as well as urban, areas.

When I consider the successes that have been achieved in establishing Wigtown's reputation and in building up associated businesses, even in the short time since the book town project's inception, I am sure that the initiative is in good hands and is starting to make a substantial contribution to the regeneration of the Machars.

Although the book town project understandably draws to some extent on best practice elsewhere—notably, as has been mentioned, in Hay-on-Wye, whose designation as a book town dates back to 1961—many of those who are involved in Wigtown have been keen to emphasise their commitment to making the book town a place for Scottish authors and booklovers: a literary Mecca, if you like.

The targets that the book town project has set itself are ambitious, but in my view they are achievable. The successful implementation of the development plan should result in the eventual establishment of 40 book-related businesses, and the initiative aims to attract 42,000 additional visitors to the town each year. I am delighted that considerable progress towards meeting those targets has already been made. Already, 16 book- related businesses have become established in the town and several associated business development ventures are being pursued with the assistance of cash that we are making available through the self-starters programme operated by Dumfries and Galloway Enterprise and with support from Groundbase. Taken together, that is welcome news for Wigtown—it means new jobs, more tourists and increased business for existing companies.

I am sure that Alasdair is well aware that the origins of Wigtown's designation as Scotland's book town lie in a joint research exercise that was funded by Scottish Enterprise and Strathclyde University, with support from the Scottish Tourist Board, to identify the potential for a book town in Scotland along the lines of Hay-on-Wye and other examples in Europe. Five potential locations had shown an interest in being chosen and Wigtown triumphed over its competitors in May 1997 as the most appropriate choice. The town was felt to be the right size, it is set in a scenically attractive area and it possessed existing businesses and local expertise that the initiative could build on.

Since then, Scottish Enterprise, Dumfries and Galloway Enterprise, Dumfries and Galloway Council and Dumfries and Galloway Tourist Board have all been working closely with the Wigtown book town committee to ascertain the scope for

helping it to achieve its aims.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5608902+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2180E179P471C707447", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Food Standards Agency", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26795, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26795, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lochhead, Richard", "ID": 2180, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Lochhead", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Richard Lochhead (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 160.0, "ContributionID": 707447, "EditedText": "Is Bristow Muldoon aware that Scotland has its own health department?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is Bristow Muldoon aware that Scotland has its own health department?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:06.080283+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1756E184P464C707533", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 15 Sep 1999", "ID": 4177 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-15T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Wigtown", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26799, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 316.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 316.0, "ID": 26799, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Grahame, Christine", "ID": 1756, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Christine Grahame", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 330.0, "ContributionID": 707533, "EditedText": "I am delighted to support Alasdair's motion. I speak in this debate not just in the guise of a former English teacher, but as a former English teacher in Galloway. I taught at Whithorn and at the Douglas Ewart school in Newton Stewart, where Alasdair also taught at one point. I know about the decline of Galloway. While I was there, the pulp mill in Minnigaff closed, Bladnoch distillery closed, Sorbie creamery closed and the granite works at Creetown closed. Those closures caused dreadful devastation in the area. People were locked into communities in poverty, with nothing happening for them. As Alasdair said, at one time Wigtown looked like something out of a western, with tumbleweed blowing down the street. I am not being lighthearted about it; it had reached that stage. The buildings were literally falling down. As a candidate in the European elections in 1994, I went round Wigtown and saw how far it had declined in the short time since I had left Galloway to become that horrible thing, a lawyer in Edinburgh. I am delighted that Wigtown is the national book town. I endorse what Alasdair said about the area being a forgotten corner. When I lived there, time after time people would say to me, \"Galloway. You are in Newton Stewart. That will be near Dumfries.\" Dumfries is 60 miles away. The greatest lack of knowledge about Galloway is among the Scottish people, yet it is rich in Scottish history. Wallace and Bruce won victories over the English at Glen Trool. Glen Trool is a marvellous place. We should get people to come back to Wigtown, to help this town that was once the county town. People should come and imbibe Scottish history there. I wish Wigtown the book town success, and I wish the tourist board success in promoting Galloway.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am delighted to support Alasdair's motion. I speak in this debate not just in the guise of a former English teacher, but as a former English teacher in Galloway. I taught at Whithorn and at the Douglas Ewart school in Newton Stewart, where Alasdair also taught at one point.

I know about the decline of Galloway. While I was there, the pulp mill in Minnigaff closed, Bladnoch distillery closed, Sorbie creamery closed and the granite works at Creetown closed. Those closures caused dreadful devastation in the area. People were locked into communities in poverty, with nothing happening for them.

As Alasdair said, at one time Wigtown looked like something out of a western, with tumbleweed blowing down the street. I am not being lighthearted about it; it had reached that stage. The buildings were literally falling down. As a candidate in the European elections in 1994, I went round Wigtown and saw how far it had declined in the short time since I had left Galloway to become that horrible thing, a lawyer in Edinburgh.

I am delighted that Wigtown is the national book town. I endorse what Alasdair said about the area being a forgotten corner. When I lived there, time after time people would say to me, \"Galloway. You are in Newton Stewart. That will be near Dumfries.\" Dumfries is 60 miles away.

The greatest lack of knowledge about Galloway is among the Scottish people, yet it is rich in Scottish history. Wallace and Bruce won victories over the English at Glen Trool. Glen Trool is a marvellous place. We should get people to come back to Wigtown, to help this town that was once the county town. People should come and imbibe Scottish history there. I wish Wigtown the book town success, and I wish the tourist board success in promoting Galloway.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:00:13.0585835+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C707132", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26765, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26766, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 344.0, "QuestionHeading": "Teachers", "QuestionHeadingID": 26779, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 465.0, "DisplayOrder": 465.0, "ID": 26779, "ParentID": 26766 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 472.0, "ContributionID": 707132, "EditedText": "It is clear that COSLA is proposing to increase composite class sizes from 25 to 30 to save £20 million to pay for other aspects of the pay and conditions offer. How, therefore, can the minister suggest that resources are not an issue? Given that the minister holds the purse-strings, does not he think that he has a more active role to play than issuing threats from the sidelines?", "EditedTextHTML": "It is clear that COSLA is proposing to increase composite class sizes from 25 to 30 to save £20 million to pay for other aspects of the pay and conditions offer. How, therefore, can the minister suggest that resources are not an issue? Given that the minister holds the purse-strings, does not he think that he has a more active role to play than issuing threats from the sidelines?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:00:59.8834011+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C707020", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 224.0, "ContributionID": 707020, "EditedText": "In a minute, Mike.It is easy to talk about accountability when the commitments in some areas are so minimal that even a stalled Government, such as this one, would find it difficult to default. I quote the flagship education policy that is mentioned on the back of the document: \"One hundred new or refurbished school buildings by the end of this Parliament\". The commitment sounds fine until one does what Labour fails to do in this document and puts it in the context of the real world. There are 32 local councils in Scotland; it is hardly aspirational to expect them to build or refurbish an average of three schools each over a four-year period. Add to that the fact that two thirds of those 100 schools will be built using private finance and the sheer lack of ambition in Labour's programme becomes even clearer. Significantly, the Government has not published a list of those 100 schools. It does not have to do anything so concrete because it knows that, even if it does nothing more than it is doing now, those 100 schools are bound to appear by 2003. The school that Sam Galbraith visited the other day to launch this document—Gylemuir Primary School in Edinburgh—will no doubt count as one of the 100 new or refurbished schools, but that project is going ahead already out of the City of Edinburgh Council's existing budget. Not much effort from Sam Galbraith is required there; no wonder he was so keen to sign on the dotted line. One hundred new schools: it sounds great, but there are 3,000 state schools in Scotland, a frightening number of which are in a state of disrepair. The HMI reports that land on my desk every day highlight just how many of those schools are in a state of disrepair.", "EditedTextHTML": "In a minute, Mike.

It is easy to talk about accountability when the commitments in some areas are so minimal that even a stalled Government, such as this one, would find it difficult to default.

I quote the flagship education policy that is mentioned on the back of the document:

\"One hundred new or refurbished school buildings by the end of this Parliament\".

The commitment sounds fine until one does what Labour fails to do in this document and puts it in the context of the real world. There are 32 local councils in Scotland; it is hardly aspirational to expect them to build or refurbish an average of three schools each over a four-year period. Add to that the fact that two thirds of those 100 schools will be built using private finance and the sheer lack of ambition in Labour's programme becomes even clearer.

Significantly, the Government has not published a list of those 100 schools. It does not have to do anything so concrete because it knows that, even if it does nothing more than it is doing now, those 100 schools are bound to appear by 2003. The school that Sam Galbraith visited the other day to launch this document—Gylemuir Primary School in Edinburgh—will no doubt count as one of the 100 new or refurbished schools, but that project is going ahead already out of the City of Edinburgh Council's existing budget. Not much effort from Sam Galbraith is required there; no wonder he was so keen to sign on the dotted line.

One hundred new schools: it sounds great, but there are 3,000 state schools in Scotland, a frightening number of which are in a state of disrepair. The HMI reports that land on my desk every day highlight just how many of those schools are in a state of disrepair.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:00:50.3207435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C707022", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 228.0, "ContributionID": 707022, "EditedText": "I shall state what I think this Government, if it were an aspirational Government, should be saying. The picture that is outlined in many of the HMI reports—such as that for Greenock Academy, the education minister's own school—shows that many schools are in a state of disrepair, and that their accommodation is unsatisfactory.", "EditedTextHTML": "I shall state what I think this Government, if it were an aspirational Government, should be saying. The picture that is outlined in many of the HMI reports—such as that for Greenock Academy, the education minister's own school—shows that many schools are in a state of disrepair, and that their accommodation is unsatisfactory.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:00:50.3207435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C707099", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26765, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26766, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 344.0, "QuestionHeading": "Landraise", "QuestionHeadingID": 26772, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 394.0, "DisplayOrder": 394.0, "ID": 26772, "ParentID": 26766 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 399.0, "ContributionID": 707099, "EditedText": "There are no special rules governing landraise. Each planning application must be considered on its own merits and in the light of the development plan. The management of licences for those sites is carried out by the Scottish Environment Protection Agency.", "EditedTextHTML": "There are no special rules governing landraise. Each planning application must be considered on its own merits and in the light of the development plan. The management of licences for those sites is carried out by the Scottish Environment Protection Agency.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:13.3570755+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C707143", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26765, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26766, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 344.0, "QuestionHeading": "Railways", "QuestionHeadingID": 26781, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 493.0, "DisplayOrder": 493.0, "ID": 26781, "ParentID": 26766 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment (Sarah Boyack): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 496.0, "ContributionID": 707143, "EditedText": "This financial year, more than £208 million of public money will be spent to secure passenger train services in Scotland. An additional £6.1 million will be available for Scottish rail freight schemes.", "EditedTextHTML": "This financial year, more than £208 million of public money will be spent to secure passenger train services in Scotland. An additional £6.1 million will be available for Scottish rail freight schemes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:13.3570755+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1985E207P501C707183", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26783, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 525.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26784, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 526.0, "QuestionHeading": "Amnesic Shellfish Poisoning", "QuestionHeadingID": 26787, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "DisplayOrder": 567.0, "ID": 26787, "ParentID": 26784 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hamilton, Mr Duncan", "ID": 1985, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Duncan Hamilton (Highlands and Islands) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 582.0, "ContributionID": 707183, "EditedText": "If the Executive is so keen on consultation, why did Susan Deacon's colleague, the Minister for Rural Affairs, refuse to meet fishermen on Mull last week, on the ground that it was \"not his responsibility\"? If it is not his responsibility, whose is it?", "EditedTextHTML": "If the Executive is so keen on consultation, why did Susan Deacon's colleague, the Minister for Rural Affairs, refuse to meet fishermen on Mull last week, on the ground that it was \"not his responsibility\"? If it is not his responsibility, whose is it?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5140115+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2117E79P104C707185", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26783, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 525.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26784, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 526.0, "QuestionHeading": "Amnesic Shellfish Poisoning", "QuestionHeadingID": 26787, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "DisplayOrder": 567.0, "ID": 26787, "ParentID": 26784 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macdonald, Lewis", "ID": 2117, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lewis Macdonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Lewis Macdonald (Aberdeen Central) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 586.0, "ContributionID": 707185, "EditedText": "Does the minister agree that the scientific advice provided by the Marine Laboratory in Aberdeen is soundly based, but that scientific understanding of the related issues is at an early stage? The laboratory needs more support to progress that understanding.", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the minister agree that the scientific advice provided by the Marine Laboratory in Aberdeen is soundly based, but that scientific understanding of the related issues is at an early stage? The laboratory needs more support to progress that understanding.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5140115+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C707187", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26788, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 590.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 590.0, "ID": 26788, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 591.0, "ContributionID": 707187, "EditedText": "The next item of business is the continuation of this morning's debate on motion S1M-127, in the name of the First Minister, on the Executive's programme for government. I ask members who want to be called to press their buttons now so that their names will come up on the screen.", "EditedTextHTML": "The next item of business is the continuation of this morning's debate on motion S1M-127, in the name of the First Minister, on the Executive's programme for government. I ask members who want to be called to press their buttons now so that their names will come up on the screen.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5140115+00:00" }, { "ID": "C707197", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26788, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 590.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 590.0, "ID": 26788, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Reid) ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Reid): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 613.0, "ContributionID": 707197, "EditedText": "Members should address their remarks through the chair.", "EditedTextHTML": "Members should address their remarks through the chair.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5140115+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C707213", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26788, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 590.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 590.0, "ID": 26788, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 651.0, "ContributionID": 707213, "EditedText": "Does Mr Muldoon realise that many of the ideas to which he refers were germinated by Ian Lang and Michael Forsyth? That is the point—they are Tory ideas, not Labour ideas.", "EditedTextHTML": "Does Mr Muldoon realise that many of the ideas to which he refers were germinated by Ian Lang and Michael Forsyth? That is the point—they are Tory ideas, not Labour ideas.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5140115+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1973E119P326C707202", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26788, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 590.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 590.0, "ID": 26788, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gorrie, Donald", "ID": 1973, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Donald Gorrie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Donald Gorrie (Central Scotland) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 627.0, "ContributionID": 707202, "EditedText": "I am the Liberal Democrats' local government spokesman, so I will concentrate on that issue. I apologise because, as I am heavily involved in the Hamilton by-election, I was not present to hear Donald Dewar's gracious remarks about me. I was busy being briefed on the very intricate affairs of Hamilton Academical Football Club. It is funny what becomes involved in by-elections. Twice in his speech, Alex Salmond very kindly advertised our excellent candidate in the by- election, Marilyne MacLaren. She made remarks criticising the Government—it is a Westminster election, and I should make it clear that she was criticising the Government in London for, in her view, not doing enough about poverty. That seems a perfectly correct thing to do. I think that Alex was trying to suggest that it was a criticism of the partnership Executive here, which it was not. In the terminology, as I understand it, the Government means the Government at Westminster and the Executive means the Government here. Perhaps we will have to talk about the Westminster Government and the Scottish Executive to make the distinction clearer. The rules must be made clearer so that it is obvious which we are referring to. In this case, we are—quite legitimately—criticising the Government in London. The partnership document contains a lot of good stuff. In fact, my main criticism relates to its size. It does not fit nicely into my very amateur filing system. My helper said that that was a subtle move; it meant that, because I could not file it away and had to have it around, I would have to read it more. There may be something in that. Much of the content in the section on local government is excellent, although we would like to push various things further. There is a commitment to proportional representation, which—although not a panacea—will improve local government more than any other single measure.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am the Liberal Democrats' local government spokesman, so I will concentrate on that issue. I apologise because, as I am heavily involved in the Hamilton by-election, I was not present to hear Donald Dewar's gracious remarks about me. I was busy being briefed on the very intricate affairs of Hamilton Academical Football Club. It is funny what becomes involved in by-elections.

Twice in his speech, Alex Salmond very kindly advertised our excellent candidate in the by- election, Marilyne MacLaren. She made remarks criticising the Government—it is a Westminster election, and I should make it clear that she was criticising the Government in London for, in her view, not doing enough about poverty. That seems a perfectly correct thing to do. I think that Alex was trying to suggest that it was a criticism of the partnership Executive here, which it was not.

In the terminology, as I understand it, the Government means the Government at Westminster and the Executive means the Government here. Perhaps we will have to talk about the Westminster Government and the Scottish Executive to make the distinction clearer. The rules must be made clearer so that it is obvious which we are referring to. In this case, we are—quite legitimately—criticising the Government in London.

The partnership document contains a lot of good stuff. In fact, my main criticism relates to its size. It does not fit nicely into my very amateur filing system. My helper said that that was a subtle move; it meant that, because I could not file it away and had to have it around, I would have to read it more. There may be something in that.

Much of the content in the section on local government is excellent, although we would like to push various things further. There is a commitment to proportional representation, which—although not a panacea—will improve local government more than any other single measure.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5140115+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1973E119P326C707204", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26788, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 590.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 590.0, "ID": 26788, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gorrie, Donald", "ID": 1973, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Donald Gorrie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Donald Gorrie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 631.0, "ContributionID": 707204, "EditedText": "I am about to do that. In the excellent Local Government Committee, chaired by Trish Godman, there has been considerable discussion of a thorough review of local government finance, for which there is great support. The Executive has problems with that, but the committee wants to explore the concept. There is also widespread support in the committee and throughout the local government community for powers of general competence. We must explore that issue with the Executive and push it along. There is a great deal of agreement, not only in the committee but across parties and throughout local government, on a great many issues. I hope, therefore, that we can make progress quickly and effectively on a great many of them. The document contains many good things on improving housing, with respect to both the physical content—building more houses for social rent, which is critical, and improving houses that are damp—and to improving relations with tenants. Communities could be improved if there was a much simpler system of adjudication between tenant and landlord, between tenant and tenant and between neighbour and neighbour. There are many good ideas in the document on providing more employment. The document also mentions the voluntary sector, on which we will be having a separate debate. That is absolutely critical. This Parliament has a great opportunity to put real drive—an engine—behind the voluntary sector, which makes such a huge contribution to wide areas of our life. Despite the many good things, there is one fundamental problem, which relates back to the Westminster Government—the underfunding of local government. This Executive and this Parliament will have to make the best of the budget that they have, but the Liberal Democrats believe that there must be well-directed increases in money for a great many local services. That money must come from the UK Treasury. We will continue to argue for that at Westminster. I am, allegedly, a member of the awkward squad—a maverick. I discovered that Mr Maverick was an American gentleman who did not put marks on his cattle—that is a piece of useless information for members. I do not know whether I am a maverick.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am about to do that. In the excellent Local Government Committee, chaired by Trish Godman, there has been considerable discussion of a thorough review of local government finance, for which there is great support. The Executive has problems with that, but the committee wants to explore the concept. There is also widespread support in the committee and throughout the local government community for powers of general competence. We must explore that issue with the Executive and push it along.

There is a great deal of agreement, not only in the committee but across parties and throughout local government, on a great many issues. I hope, therefore, that we can make progress quickly and effectively on a great many of them.

The document contains many good things on improving housing, with respect to both the physical content—building more houses for social rent, which is critical, and improving houses that are damp—and to improving relations with tenants. Communities could be improved if there was a much simpler system of adjudication between tenant and landlord, between tenant and tenant and between neighbour and neighbour.

There are many good ideas in the document on providing more employment. The document also mentions the voluntary sector, on which we will be having a separate debate. That is absolutely critical. This Parliament has a great opportunity to put real drive—an engine—behind the voluntary sector, which makes such a huge contribution to wide areas of our life.

Despite the many good things, there is one fundamental problem, which relates back to the Westminster Government—the underfunding of local government. This Executive and this Parliament will have to make the best of the budget that they have, but the Liberal Democrats believe that there must be well-directed increases in money for a great many local services. That money must come from the UK Treasury. We will continue to argue for that at Westminster.

I am, allegedly, a member of the awkward squad—a maverick. I discovered that Mr Maverick was an American gentleman who did not put marks on his cattle—that is a piece of useless information for members. I do not know whether I am a maverick.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5140115+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C707205", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26788, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 590.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 590.0, "ID": 26788, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie (Lothians) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 633.0, "ContributionID": 707205, "EditedText": "Mr Maverick was also a gambler. It seems that Donald Gorrie is aping his style with the large wager that he made yesterday.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Maverick was also a gambler. It seems that Donald Gorrie is aping his style with the large wager that he made yesterday.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5140115+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1973E119P326C707206", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26788, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 590.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 590.0, "ID": 26788, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gorrie, Donald", "ID": 1973, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Donald Gorrie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Donald Gorrie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 635.0, "ContributionID": 707206, "EditedText": "I bet only on certainties. The only bet that I have placed in the past 10 years was that I would win in the last general election.", "EditedTextHTML": "I bet only on certainties. The only bet that I have placed in the past 10 years was that I would win in the last general election.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5140115+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2105E44P74C707215", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26788, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 590.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 590.0, "ID": 26788, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harding, Mr Keith", "ID": 2105, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Harding", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Keith Harding (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 655.0, "ContributionID": 707215, "EditedText": "Is there not a great deal of difference because the vast majority of the programme contains Conservative policies that have already been implemented?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is there not a great deal of difference because the vast majority of the programme contains Conservative policies that have already been implemented?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5140115+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2223E203P342C707219", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26788, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 590.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 590.0, "ID": 26788, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scott, Tavish", "ID": 2223, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Shetland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tavish Scott", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tavish Scott: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 664.0, "ContributionID": 707219, "EditedText": "This debate is about public services in Scotland. Submissions on public services will no doubt go forward, so Scotland will receive its share of that funding. It is very important that we make our arguments as strong and as clear as possible; I hope that the SNP will join us in that. Mr Salmond called congestion charging taxation by the back door. The SNP's spending commitments in its penny for Scotland campaign were for health, housing and education—there was no mention of transport. The SNP cannot argue that it will increase investment in transport— it was not included in that campaign. That is opposition for the sake of opposition. The SNP's manifesto was in favour of congestion charging, but now a campaign has been mounted against it—that is having it both ways. We would be very grateful for an explanation of how the Conservatives and the SNP would provide funding for transport if they will not do so through taxation or congestion charging. The Executive, at least, is illustrating in this programme potential routes to investment in affordable public transport. It is right to consult on urban road charging, as the Executive is doing. It is hard to argue against the case for congestion charging in our cities. Working in Edinburgh, we are made aware daily of the disbenefits of congestion: CO2 emissions, pollutants in the air, frustration and lost time.", "EditedTextHTML": "This debate is about public services in Scotland. Submissions on public services will no doubt go forward, so Scotland will receive its share of that funding. It is very important that we make our arguments as strong and as clear as possible; I hope that the SNP will join us in that.

Mr Salmond called congestion charging taxation by the back door. The SNP's spending commitments in its penny for Scotland campaign were for health, housing and education—there was no mention of transport. The SNP cannot

argue that it will increase investment in transport— it was not included in that campaign. That is opposition for the sake of opposition. The SNP's manifesto was in favour of congestion charging, but now a campaign has been mounted against it—that is having it both ways.

We would be very grateful for an explanation of how the Conservatives and the SNP would provide funding for transport if they will not do so through taxation or congestion charging. The Executive, at least, is illustrating in this programme potential routes to investment in affordable public transport.

It is right to consult on urban road charging, as the Executive is doing. It is hard to argue against the case for congestion charging in our cities. Working in Edinburgh, we are made aware daily of the disbenefits of congestion: CO2 emissions, pollutants in the air, frustration and lost time.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5140115+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C707222", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26788, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 590.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 590.0, "ID": 26788, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 670.0, "ContributionID": 707222, "EditedText": "David Mundell will wind up for the Scottish Conservative party. You have a maximum of 10 minutes, David.", "EditedTextHTML": "David Mundell will wind up for the Scottish Conservative party. You have a maximum of 10 minutes, David.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5140115+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1962E35P56C707227", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26788, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 590.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 590.0, "ID": 26788, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mundell, David", "ID": 1962, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Mundell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David Mundell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 681.0, "ContributionID": 707227, "EditedText": "I admit that the Executive has brought together, in one document, many things that have been stated over many years. When I was working outside the Parliament, I was subject to an appraisal scheme and I was paid on the basis of achieving objectives. One of the tricks that the Government has pulled off— which I never managed—is to set a group of objectives of which some have already been achieved, others are at so long a distance as to ensure that no one will be around to pick up the bonus in 2009, and yet others are simply unmeasurable. I am not surprised that we have not heard anything new, because we have had nothing new from the Government since 16 June.", "EditedTextHTML": "I admit that the Executive has brought together, in one document, many things that have been stated over many years.

When I was working outside the Parliament, I was subject to an appraisal scheme and I was paid on the basis of achieving objectives. One of the tricks that the Government has pulled off— which I never managed—is to set a group of objectives of which some have already been achieved, others are at so long a distance as to ensure that no one will be around to pick up the bonus in 2009, and yet others are simply unmeasurable.

I am not surprised that we have not heard anything new, because we have had nothing new from the Government since 16 June.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5140115+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2038E191P344C707230", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26788, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 590.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 590.0, "ID": 26788, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Smith, Iain", "ID": 2038, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Iain Smith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Iain Smith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 687.0, "ContributionID": 707230, "EditedText": "I was going to ask whether the Opposition was going to say something new. In this entire debate, we have heard only talk about the style and presentation of the document, and nothing about the content.", "EditedTextHTML": "I was going to ask whether the Opposition was going to say something new. In this entire debate, we have heard only talk about the style and presentation of the document, and nothing about the content.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5140115+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1962E35P56C707231", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26788, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 590.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 590.0, "ID": 26788, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mundell, David", "ID": 1962, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Mundell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David Mundell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 689.0, "ContributionID": 707231, "EditedText": "Iain Smith has hit right at the Government.", "EditedTextHTML": "Iain Smith has hit right at the Government.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5140115+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1962E35P56C707235", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26788, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 590.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 590.0, "ID": 26788, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mundell, David", "ID": 1962, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Mundell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David Mundell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 697.0, "ContributionID": 707235, "EditedText": "I am in my last minute, Richard. I am sorry, but I will not give way. People in Scotland—as Bristow Muldoon said— will judge the Parliament in general and the Executive in particular on what difference they make to their lives, and not on the content of documents such as this. It is the very production of a document such as this—all style and no substance, Iain—that compounds the Executive's difficulties. A presentation with no substance fuels the perception that this Parliament is not making a difference to the lives of ordinary people in Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am in my last minute, Richard. I am sorry, but I will not give way.

People in Scotland—as Bristow Muldoon said— will judge the Parliament in general and the Executive in particular on what difference they make to their lives, and not on the content of documents such as this. It is the very production of a document such as this—all style and no substance, Iain—that compounds the Executive's difficulties. A presentation with no substance fuels the perception that this Parliament is not making a difference to the lives of ordinary people in Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5140115+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C707254", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26788, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 590.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 590.0, "ID": 26788, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 737.0, "ContributionID": 707254, "EditedText": "Not only do I support the UHI, but I can claim to be one of the first MPs to call for it to be established. The fact that the university has made much progress is a source of great satisfaction to me. The university is widely welcomed in the Highlands and Islands and I am pleased to have the opportunity to endorse that welcome. On Inverness college, Mrs Scanlon probably knows that responsibility for the financial position of Scotland's further education colleges has, since 1 July, been a matter for the Scottish Further Education Funding Council. That council was informed last week of the financial situation faced by Inverness college, and I understand that the council engaged with the college as a matter of priority to consider what action is required to address the situation.", "EditedTextHTML": "Not only do I support the UHI, but I can claim to be one of the first MPs to call for it to be established. The fact that the university has made much progress is a source of great satisfaction to me. The university is widely welcomed in the Highlands and Islands and I am pleased to have the opportunity to endorse that welcome.

On Inverness college, Mrs Scanlon probably knows that responsibility for the financial position of Scotland's further education colleges has, since 1 July, been a matter for the Scottish Further Education Funding Council. That council was informed last week of the financial situation faced by Inverness college, and I understand that the council engaged with the college as a matter of priority to consider what action is required to address the situation.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5140115+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C707247", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26788, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 590.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 590.0, "ID": 26788, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice (Mr Jim Wallace): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 723.0, "ContributionID": 707247, "EditedText": "This has been a wide- ranging debate on a programme for government that sets timetables for the commitments that have been made by the Executive. It develops the partnership agreement that the Liberal Democrats and the Labour party entered into. Mr Mundell complained that the programme added nothing new to the debate in June. My recollection of the debate on 16 June, which was on the legislative programme of the Government, is of numerous complaints that the legislative programme did not mention health, jobs or housing. It was explained that there is far more to a Government and the actions of an Executive than simply passing legislation. This programme refers to matters that are part of the legislative programme but it goes beyond that and sets out what the Executive plans to do, and is committed to doing, in tackling the range of responsibilities that have been given to this Parliament. The Opposition has not been able to get past the pictures. I can understand that—the members of the Cabinet are a fairly photogenic lot. I thought that when David Mundell rose to speak he might have been able to introduce something novel and constructive from the Conservative party, but he complained about the pastel shades. That perhaps sums up how far the Conservative party has got with this document. If I may parody Mr Mundell's words, he delivered a speech that had no style and no substance. The problem faced by both Opposition parties is that they cannot see the bigger picture; they cannot acknowledge that the document contains details of commitments and a fixed timetable. As Richard Simpson reminded John Swinney,the First Minister challenged Alex Salmond, at the start of the debate, to say when any previous Government had set out a detailed timetable of commitments. Alex Salmond was unable to answer. No one has given any indication that such a timetable has been produced before. That is a challenge to the Executive to deliver, and I am confident that we can meet the challenge. We promised open, transparent and accountable government. This document is an important contribution to government in Scotland, which will be open, transparent and accountable. Although Opposition members have trivialised the fact that dates have been set, I suspect that they will be very quick to latch on to them if— peradventure—any of those dates should slip. I do not expect a press release from Mr McLetchie or Mr Salmond to congratulate us when we hit or exceed our targets, but I am sure they will use the document to hold us to account in the weeks, months and years of this session. I do not complain about that; an important role for any Parliament is to hold the Executive to account. I do not expect only the Opposition parties to do so; we have had indications in the debate, from John McAllion, Trish Godman, Tavish Scott and Hugh Henry, that they will use this document to keep the Executive up to the mark. The predictability of the Opposition attacks was one of the disappointing, although perhaps not surprising, aspects of the debate. The Opposition appears to believe in opposition for opposition's sake. Even in the final speech, Mr Swinney could not seem to get beyond suggesting that we should have included a commitment to write a letter to the monetary policy committee by the end of September. I do not know if the SNP policy is that high inflation throughout the UK is good for the Scottish economy; that is certainly not my policy. The SNP admitted during the election campaign that in an independent Scotland it would shadow what would then be the English pound, without any opportunity at all for influence. I do not understand how John Swinney can criticise as he has done today.", "EditedTextHTML": "This has been a wide- ranging debate on a programme for government that sets timetables for the commitments that have been made by the Executive. It develops the partnership agreement that the Liberal Democrats and the Labour party entered into.

Mr Mundell complained that the programme added nothing new to the debate in June. My recollection of the debate on 16 June, which was on the legislative programme of the Government, is of numerous complaints that the legislative programme did not mention health, jobs or housing. It was explained that there is far more to a Government and the actions of an Executive than simply passing legislation. This programme refers to matters that are part of the legislative programme but it goes beyond that and sets out what the Executive plans to do, and is committed to doing, in tackling the range of responsibilities that have been given to this Parliament.

The Opposition has not been able to get past the pictures. I can understand that—the members of the Cabinet are a fairly photogenic lot. I thought that when David Mundell rose to speak he might have been able to introduce something novel and constructive from the Conservative party, but he complained about the pastel shades. That perhaps sums up how far the Conservative party has got with this document. If I may parody Mr Mundell's words, he delivered a speech that had no style and no substance. The problem faced by both Opposition parties is that they cannot see the bigger picture; they cannot acknowledge that the document contains details of commitments and a fixed timetable.

As Richard Simpson reminded John Swinney,

the First Minister challenged Alex Salmond, at the start of the debate, to say when any previous Government had set out a detailed timetable of commitments. Alex Salmond was unable to answer. No one has given any indication that such a timetable has been produced before. That is a challenge to the Executive to deliver, and I am confident that we can meet the challenge. We promised open, transparent and accountable government. This document is an important contribution to government in Scotland, which will be open, transparent and accountable.

Although Opposition members have trivialised the fact that dates have been set, I suspect that they will be very quick to latch on to them if— peradventure—any of those dates should slip. I do not expect a press release from Mr McLetchie or Mr Salmond to congratulate us when we hit or exceed our targets, but I am sure they will use the document to hold us to account in the weeks, months and years of this session. I do not complain about that; an important role for any Parliament is to hold the Executive to account. I do not expect only the Opposition parties to do so; we have had indications in the debate, from John McAllion, Trish Godman, Tavish Scott and Hugh Henry, that they will use this document to keep the Executive up to the mark.

The predictability of the Opposition attacks was one of the disappointing, although perhaps not surprising, aspects of the debate. The Opposition appears to believe in opposition for opposition's sake. Even in the final speech, Mr Swinney could not seem to get beyond suggesting that we should have included a commitment to write a letter to the monetary policy committee by the end of September. I do not know if the SNP policy is that high inflation throughout the UK is good for the Scottish economy; that is certainly not my policy. The SNP admitted during the election campaign that in an independent Scotland it would shadow what would then be the English pound, without any opportunity at all for influence. I do not understand how John Swinney can criticise as he has done today.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5140115+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C707251", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26788, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 590.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 590.0, "ID": 26788, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Alex Salmond (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 731.0, "ContributionID": 707251, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "

Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5140115+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C707255", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26788, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 590.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 590.0, "ID": 26788, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 739.0, "ContributionID": 707255, "EditedText": "On the subject of support, the main point of the launch of the Liberal campaign in Hamilton seemed to be to oppose Labour's attacks on the poor and vulnerable. I know it is—to coin a phrase—devilishly difficult to oppose the Labour party in Hamilton and to support it in Edinburgh, but does the Deputy First Minister support his party's candidate in Hamilton?", "EditedTextHTML": "On the subject of support, the main point of the launch of the Liberal campaign in Hamilton seemed to be to oppose Labour's attacks on the poor and vulnerable. I know it is—to coin a phrase—devilishly difficult to oppose the Labour party in Hamilton and to support it in Edinburgh, but does the Deputy First Minister support his party's candidate in Hamilton?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5140115+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C707259", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26788, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 590.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 590.0, "ID": 26788, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 747.0, "ContributionID": 707259, "EditedText": "Does the minister acknowledge that the Executive controls the parliamentary timetable through the Parliamentary Bureau? Therefore, the view that the Executive takes of the progress, timetabling and prioritisation of members' bills is germane to whether they are approved.", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the minister acknowledge that the Executive controls the parliamentary timetable through the Parliamentary Bureau? Therefore, the view that the Executive takes of the progress, timetabling and prioritisation of members' bills is germane to whether they are approved.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5140115+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1876E194P490C707263", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26788, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 590.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 590.0, "ID": 26788, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Marwick, Tricia", "ID": 1876, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tricia Marwick", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tricia Marwick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 755.0, "ContributionID": 707263, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "

Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5140115+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1876E194P490C707265", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26788, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 590.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 590.0, "ID": 26788, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Marwick, Tricia", "ID": 1876, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tricia Marwick", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tricia Marwick: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 759.0, "ContributionID": 707265, "EditedText": "If it is not a question of spin or of presentation, surely it is a question of timing. Will the minister explain why, only six months ago, Calum Macdonald said that there would be no one sleeping rough on the streets of Scotland by 2002, while the Executive's target is 2003? How much further back will the target go?", "EditedTextHTML": "If it is not a question of spin or of presentation, surely it is a question of timing. Will the minister explain why, only six months ago, Calum Macdonald said that there would be no one sleeping rough on the streets of Scotland by 2002, while the Executive's target is 2003? How much further back will the target go?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5140115+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2228E151P202C707269", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Time for Reflection", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26789, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 765.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 765.0, "ID": 26789, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McCabe, Tom", "ID": 2228, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Tom McCabe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Parliament (Mr Tom McCabe): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 769.0, "ContributionID": 707269, "EditedText": "Members will be aware that the first motion to be debated in this Parliament was on the subject of prayers, and that that motion led to the Parliament being called upon to make arrangements for the introduction of prayers. The motion before members today details those arrangements. Careful consideration was given to the initial debate and that resulted in a wide-ranging consultation. Invitations were issued to representatives of a wide cross-section of beliefs in Scotland to come and discuss their views with the Parliamentary Bureau. That led to an extremely well-attended meeting on 6 July and that discussion proved positive and constructive. The meeting greatly assisted the Parliamentary Bureau to draft this proposal, and on behalf of the bureau, and I think the whole Parliament, I want to put on record our appreciation to those who represented the various beliefs at that meeting. Members will know from their postbags that we have received substantial correspondence from organisations and from individuals, and members have my assurance that all that was taken into consideration during the formulation of the motion. In essence, what is recommended is that time for reflection should comprise mainly Christian prayers, but the critical underlying principle is that it will allocate time to all the main beliefs held in Scotland. The aim is simply to reflect the diversity of our country as it is today. No member of this Parliament will need to be reminded that our proceedings are reported widely. We have of necessity been required to discuss founding matters that make us easy targets for criticism. Today we are again discussing a founding principle, a convention that undoubtedly carries importance for many. For that reason, I plead with all members to remember that how we decide an issue can be as important as what we decide. Irrespective of individual views or beliefs, let us remember how readily and easily our new Parliament, our new institution, can be misjudged. We have a duty to show by example that we are a tolerant and open legislature that is content with the pursuit of social inclusion. I will spend a few moments on the specifics of the motion. It is proposed that time for reflection be held as the first item of business at the start of our plenary week. It is also proposed, as an indication of the importance attached to this development, that time for reflection be included in the Official Report, to form part of the record of parliamentary proceedings. The motion further advances the strong view that the people of Scotland should be able to share the time for reflection with members. In that spirit, those who lead reflection will be asked to address the whole of Scotland as well as members in the chamber. The motion seeks to reflect and respect the views and beliefs of as many of Scotland's citizens as possible. I am sure that it is there that some will disagree. I hope that we can debate any disagreement in a way that brings credit to our institution. I firmly believe that further credit will be given because time for reflection will be held in public, which is in keeping with the spirit and aspirations of our new Parliament. The Parliamentary Bureau considered the procedures to be adopted during time for reflection. We were not minded to instruct members or the public not to enter or leave during reflection, but we hope that a convention can be established that encourages restraint during that time. Work will be done on the pattern to be followed by those coming to the chamber to lead reflection. As members will know, any non-member requires an invitation to address the Parliament and it is proposed that that be issued by the Presiding Officer following advice from the Parliamentary Bureau. If the motion is approved, the bureau will consider who should be among the first to lead reflection. Before moving the motion, I will make a few brief remarks about Phil Gallie's amendment. It is recommended that time for reflection will comprise mainly Christian prayers. However, there is a responsibility on all of us to ensure that this Parliament is inclusive and that it represents all parts of Scotland. By approaching time for reflection in the way outlined in the motion, I firmly believe that we will achieve the balance between Scotland's traditional Christian culture, as outlined by Mr Gallie, and the reality of Scotland as it is today. We have a duty to represent all our constituents of whatever faith and of none. I believe that the motion is the best way to achieve that. I move,That the Parliament agrees that, further to the decision on motion S1M–1 on Prayers, the provision of a Time for Reflection should be as outlined below— Time for Reflection will be held in the Chamber in a meeting of the Parliament normally as the first item of business each week; Time for Reflection will be held in public and will be addressed both to Members and to the Scottish people; Time for Reflection will last for a maximum of four minutes; Time for Reflection will follow a pattern based on the balance of beliefs in Scotland; invitations to address the Parliament in leading Time for Reflection will be issued by the Presiding Officer on advice from the Parliamentary Bureau; Time for Reflection will be recorded in the Official Report.", "EditedTextHTML": "Members will be aware that the first motion to be debated in this Parliament was on the subject of prayers, and that that motion led to the Parliament being called upon to make arrangements for the introduction of prayers. The motion before members today details those arrangements.

Careful consideration was given to the initial debate and that resulted in a wide-ranging consultation. Invitations were issued to representatives of a wide cross-section of beliefs in Scotland to come and discuss their views with the Parliamentary Bureau. That led to an extremely well-attended meeting on 6 July and that discussion proved positive and constructive.

The meeting greatly assisted the Parliamentary Bureau to draft this proposal, and on behalf of the bureau, and I think the whole Parliament, I want to put on record our appreciation to those who represented the various beliefs at that meeting. Members will know from their postbags that we have received substantial correspondence from organisations and from individuals, and members have my assurance that all that was taken into consideration during the formulation of the motion.

In essence, what is recommended is that time for reflection should comprise mainly Christian prayers, but the critical underlying principle is that it will allocate time to all the main beliefs held in Scotland. The aim is simply to reflect the diversity of our country as it is today.

No member of this Parliament will need to be reminded that our proceedings are reported widely. We have of necessity been required to discuss founding matters that make us easy targets for criticism. Today we are again discussing a founding principle, a convention that undoubtedly carries importance for many. For that reason, I plead with all members to remember that how we decide an issue can be as important as what we decide. Irrespective of individual views or beliefs, let us remember how readily and easily our new Parliament, our new institution, can be misjudged. We have a duty to show by example that we are a tolerant and open legislature that is content with the pursuit of social inclusion.

I will spend a few moments on the specifics of the motion. It is proposed that time for reflection be held as the first item of business at the start of our plenary week. It is also proposed, as an indication of the importance attached to this development, that time for reflection be included in the Official Report, to form part of the record of parliamentary proceedings.

The motion further advances the strong view that the people of Scotland should be able to share the time for reflection with members. In that spirit, those who lead reflection will be asked to address the whole of Scotland as well as members in the chamber. The motion seeks to reflect and respect the views and beliefs of as many of Scotland's citizens as possible. I am sure that it is there that some will disagree. I hope that we can debate any disagreement in a way that brings credit to our institution. I firmly believe that further credit will be given because time for reflection will be held in public, which is in keeping with the spirit and aspirations of our new Parliament. The Parliamentary Bureau considered the procedures to be adopted during time for reflection. We were not minded to instruct members or the public not to enter or leave during reflection, but we hope that a convention can be established that encourages restraint during that time. Work will be done on the pattern to be followed by those coming to the chamber to lead reflection. As members will know, any non-member requires an invitation to address the Parliament and it is proposed that that be issued by the Presiding Officer following advice from the Parliamentary Bureau. If the motion is approved, the bureau will consider who should be among the first to lead reflection.

Before moving the motion, I will make a few brief remarks about Phil Gallie's amendment. It is recommended that time for reflection will comprise mainly Christian prayers. However, there is a responsibility on all of us to ensure that this Parliament is inclusive and that it represents all parts of Scotland. By approaching time for reflection in the way outlined in the motion, I firmly believe that we will achieve the balance between Scotland's traditional Christian culture, as outlined by Mr Gallie, and the reality of Scotland as it is today.

We have a duty to represent all our constituents of whatever faith and of none. I believe that the motion is the best way to achieve that.

I move,

That the Parliament agrees that, further to the decision on motion S1M–1 on Prayers, the provision of a Time for Reflection should be as outlined below—

Time for Reflection will be held in the Chamber in a meeting of the Parliament normally as the first item of business each week;

Time for Reflection will be held in public and will be addressed both to Members and to the Scottish people;

Time for Reflection will last for a maximum of four minutes;

Time for Reflection will follow a pattern based on the balance of beliefs in Scotland; invitations to address the Parliament in leading Time for Reflection will be issued by the Presiding Officer on advice from the Parliamentary Bureau;

Time for Reflection will be recorded in the Official Report.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C707270", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Time for Reflection", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26789, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 765.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 765.0, "ID": 26789, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 771.0, "ContributionID": 707270, "EditedText": "Thank you, Mr McCabe.There is very little chance that I will be able to call everyone who wants to speak unless contributions are brief. I call Mr Gallie to move his amendment.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you, Mr McCabe.

There is very little chance that I will be able to call everyone who wants to speak unless contributions are brief.

I call Mr Gallie to move his amendment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C707272", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Time for Reflection", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26789, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 765.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 765.0, "ID": 26789, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 776.0, "ContributionID": 707272, "EditedText": "Before calling Brian Adam, I appeal for three-minute speeches so that I can include more members.", "EditedTextHTML": "Before calling Brian Adam, I appeal for three-minute speeches so that I can include more members.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2207E94P262C707274", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Time for Reflection", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26789, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 765.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 765.0, "ID": 26789, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Barrie, Scott", "ID": 2207, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dunfermline West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Scott Barrie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Scott Barrie (Dunfermline West) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 782.0, "ContributionID": 707274, "EditedText": "Although I voted against the original motion for prayers, I fully accept, as a democrat, that the majority voted that day for a time for reflection. I recollect that most speakers stressed the need for it to be multi-faith, including all the people of Scotland. If we are to be inclusive, it is important that we recognise all the religions and none in present-day Scotland. In order fully to respect the diversity of belief in Scotland, it is important that the time for reflection reflects that, and I do not think that that could be the case if we accepted Phil Gallie's amendment.", "EditedTextHTML": "Although I voted against the original motion for prayers, I fully accept, as a democrat, that the majority voted that day for a time for reflection. I recollect that most speakers stressed the need for it to be multi-faith, including all the people of Scotland.

If we are to be inclusive, it is important that we recognise all the religions and none in present-day Scotland. In order fully to respect the diversity of belief in Scotland, it is important that the time for reflection reflects that, and I do not think that that could be the case if we accepted Phil Gallie's amendment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C707280", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Time for Reflection", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26789, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 765.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 765.0, "ID": 26789, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr David Davidson (North-East Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 799.0, "ContributionID": 707280, "EditedText": "As a practising Christian I notice that no one has yet spoken of tolerance. If Christianity is about one thing, it is about tolerance. I agree with Donald Gorrie that there is no risk to anyone's own belief in the proposal. I feel that the Parliament must signal very clearly that we tolerate a broad spectrum of views in our society and that worship is to be encouraged. I support the motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "As a practising Christian I notice that no one has yet spoken of tolerance. If Christianity is about one thing, it is about tolerance. I agree with Donald Gorrie that there is no risk to anyone's own belief in the proposal. I feel that the Parliament must signal very clearly that we tolerate a broad spectrum of views in our society and that worship is to be encouraged. I support the motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C707285", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Time for Reflection", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26789, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 765.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 765.0, "ID": 26789, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 811.0, "ContributionID": 707285, "EditedText": "That is an issue that has still to be resolved, but I would have thought that, if it is done, it cannot be in the conventional way with a wide picture. The reflection will be recorded in the Official Report. There is an argument for televising it, because in the motion we are saying that this is an event that would, we hope, lead the people of Scotland to reflect with the Parliament. If it is to be televised, it should be done in order to lead the people of Scotland. That is an issue for another day. What we want to do here is begin the process. I say to Phil Gallie and two other Tory speakers that there is an issue of tolerance here. The ecclesiastical history of Scotland has been a move from toleration to tolerance. Toleration means saying that other people are entitled to their religious beliefs, but that that must not interfere with the primary position of a particular faith.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is an issue that has still to be resolved, but I would have thought that, if it is done, it cannot be in the conventional way with a wide picture. The reflection will be recorded in the Official Report. There is an argument for televising it, because in the motion we are saying that this is an event that would, we hope, lead the people of Scotland to reflect with the Parliament. If it is to be televised, it should be done in order to lead the people of Scotland.

That is an issue for another day. What we want to do here is begin the process. I say to Phil Gallie and two other Tory speakers that there is an issue of tolerance here. The ecclesiastical history of Scotland has been a move from toleration to tolerance. Toleration means saying that other people are entitled to their religious beliefs, but that that must not interfere with the primary position of a particular faith.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "C707296", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Commonwealth Parliamentary Association", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26790, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 831.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 831.0, "ID": 26790, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 833.0, "ContributionID": 707296, "EditedText": "That the Parliament agrees— (a) to apply for admission to membership of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association, such membership to be effective immediately on approval of the application by the General Assembly of Commonwealth Parliamentary Association; (b) to abide by the provisions of the Constitution of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association; (c) the required membership fee be paid to the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association; and (d) that this motion be communicated to the Secretariat of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association immediately following agreement.—Mr McNulty. Amnesic Shellfish Poisoning", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament agrees— (a) to apply for admission to membership of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association, such membership to be effective immediately on approval of the application by the General Assembly of Commonwealth Parliamentary Association; (b) to abide by the provisions of the Constitution of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association; (c) the required membership fee be paid to the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association; and (d) that this motion be communicated to the Secretariat of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association immediately following agreement.—[Mr McNulty.] Amnesic Shellfish Poisoning

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "C707297", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Commonwealth Parliamentary Association", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26790, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 831.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 831.0, "ID": 26790, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 834.0, "ContributionID": 707297, "EditedText": "Motion moved,", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion moved,

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C707303", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26792, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 841.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 841.0, "ID": 26792, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 842.0, "ContributionID": 707303, "EditedText": "There are seven questions that I must put to the chamber. The first is, that amendment S1M-127.1, in the name of Mr Alex Salmond, which seeks to amend motion S1M-127 on the Executive programme for government, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "There are seven questions that I must put to the chamber. The first is, that amendment S1M-127.1, in the name of Mr Alex Salmond, which seeks to amend motion S1M-127 on the Executive programme for government, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "C707308", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26792, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 841.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 841.0, "ID": 26792, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 851.0, "ContributionID": 707308, "EditedText": "Amendment disagreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment disagreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "C707310", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26792, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 841.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 841.0, "ID": 26792, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 854.0, "ContributionID": 707310, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C707313", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26792, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 841.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 841.0, "ID": 26792, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 859.0, "ContributionID": 707313, "EditedText": "The result of the division is as follows: For 65, Against 46, Abstentions 0.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result of the division is as follows: For 65, Against 46, Abstentions 0.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C707316", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26792, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 841.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 841.0, "ID": 26792, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 863.0, "ContributionID": 707316, "EditedText": "The third question is, that amendment S1M-131.1, in the name of Phil Gallie, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "The third question is, that amendment S1M-131.1, in the name of Phil

Gallie, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "C707317", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26792, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 841.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 841.0, "ID": 26792, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 865.0, "ContributionID": 707317, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C707320", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26792, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 841.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 841.0, "ID": 26792, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 870.0, "ContributionID": 707320, "EditedText": "The result of the division is: For 9, Against 99, Abstentions 3.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result of the division is: For 9, Against 99, Abstentions 3.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C707322", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26792, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 841.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 841.0, "ID": 26792, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 873.0, "ContributionID": 707322, "EditedText": "The fourth question is, that S1M-131, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "The fourth question is, that S1M-131, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "C707323", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26792, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 841.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 841.0, "ID": 26792, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 875.0, "ContributionID": 707323, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "C707327", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26792, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 841.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 841.0, "ID": 26792, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 882.0, "ContributionID": 707327, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "C707330", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26792, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 841.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 841.0, "ID": 26792, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 885.0, "ContributionID": 707330, "EditedText": "Time for Reflection will be held in public and will be addressed both to Members and to the Scottish people;", "EditedTextHTML": "Time for Reflection will be held in public and will be addressed both to Members and to the Scottish people;

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "C707334", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26792, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 841.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 841.0, "ID": 26792, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 889.0, "ContributionID": 707334, "EditedText": "Time for Reflection will be recorded in the Official Report.", "EditedTextHTML": "Time for Reflection will be recorded in the Official Report.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "C707336", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26792, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 841.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 841.0, "ID": 26792, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 892.0, "ContributionID": 707336, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "C707339", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26792, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 841.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 841.0, "ID": 26792, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 895.0, "ContributionID": 707339, "EditedText": "That the Parliament agrees that the following Orders be approved—", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament agrees that the following Orders be approved—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "C707340", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26792, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 841.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 841.0, "ID": 26792, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 896.0, "ContributionID": 707340, "EditedText": "The Food Protection (Emergency Prohibitions) (Amnesic Shellfish Poisoning) (West Coast) (Scotland) Order 1999 (SSI 1999/26) and,", "EditedTextHTML": "The Food Protection (Emergency Prohibitions) (Amnesic Shellfish Poisoning) (West Coast) (Scotland) Order 1999 (SSI 1999/26) and,

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "C707341", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26792, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 841.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 841.0, "ID": 26792, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 897.0, "ContributionID": 707341, "EditedText": "The Food Protection (Emergency Prohibitions) (Amnesic Shellfish Poisoning) (Orkney) (Scotland) Order 1999 (SSI 1999/27).", "EditedTextHTML": "The Food Protection (Emergency Prohibitions) (Amnesic Shellfish Poisoning) (Orkney) (Scotland) Order 1999 (SSI 1999/27).

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C707349", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Clackmannanshire and West Fife (Unemployment) ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26793, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 902.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 902.0, "ID": 26793, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 910.0, "ContributionID": 707349, "EditedText": "On a point of order. I am sorry, but I cannot hear.", "EditedTextHTML": "

On a point of order. I am sorry, but I cannot hear.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2152E53P75C707350", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Clackmannanshire and West Fife (Unemployment) ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26793, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 902.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 902.0, "ID": 26793, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnston, Nick", "ID": 2152, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nick Johnston", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Johnston: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 912.0, "ContributionID": 707350, "EditedText": "I will give Mrs Scanlon a copy of my speech later.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will give Mrs Scanlon a copy of my speech later.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C707351", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Clackmannanshire and West Fife (Unemployment) ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26793, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 902.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 902.0, "ID": 26793, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 914.0, "ContributionID": 707351, "EditedText": "Will members who are leaving the chamber please do so as quietly as possible? Mr Johnston, you have the floor.", "EditedTextHTML": "Will members who are leaving the chamber please do so as quietly as possible? Mr Johnston, you have the floor.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2152E53P75C707352", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Clackmannanshire and West Fife (Unemployment) ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26793, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 902.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 902.0, "ID": 26793, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnston, Nick", "ID": 2152, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nick Johnston", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Johnston: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 916.0, "ContributionID": 707352, "EditedText": "The area has lost brewing, mining and textiles. Patons, which used to employ 3,000 people, has now withdrawn, switching production to China—a sad reflection on Gordon Brown and his sterling policies, which have stopped exports and sucked in cheap imports. Yesterday's interest rate rise will be met with horror by the small businesses of Clackmannanshire. During the past 10 years, more than 6,000 manufacturing jobs have been lost—350 in the past month and more than 1,100 in the past 12 months. However, the problem runs much deeper than that and the exact root causes need to be identified and dealt with. In the recent spate of redundancies and closures, Clackmannanshire is not unique. Fife west of the M90 is another area that has suffered high unemployment and social deprivation, especially in the former mining villages. The current rumours of threats to almost 1,000 jobs at Babcock Rosyth will inevitably inflict further hardship on that part of Scotland and along the north shore of the Forth estuary. Rosyth and Dunfermline are within the Clackmannanshire travel-to-work area, and a decrease in employment opportunities in those places will have a major impact in Clackmannanshire. Unemployment has already risen to nearly double the national average—to 11 per cent—and female unemployment has risen by 36 per cent. The area's problems are well documented by the Henley Centre rankings. Despite that, it has initiated some very worthwhile projects, in conjunction with Forth Valley Enterprise and Fife Enterprise. I welcome the fact that the councils have made provision for small businesses and created opportunities for social technology partnerships, such as the Alloa SMART village and the exciting new Rosyth Europark project. Ten days ago, following the announcement of the closure of Kilncraig mill with the loss of 240 jobs, the Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning attended a meeting in Alloa with local council officials, enterprise companies, councillors, the Westminster MP and the three local MSPs. As a result of that meeting, he agreed to the cross- party request for urgent action to provide aid to the area, for which the other MSPs and I are very grateful. One heartening aspect of this situation has been the almost unanimous non-partisan approach to the problems of the area. I say almost, as I must make an exception for the MSP for Dunfermline West, who refused to support my motion on the ground that no problems exist. It is nice to know that Mr Barrie has his finger on the pulse.", "EditedTextHTML": "The area has lost brewing, mining and textiles. Patons, which used to employ 3,000 people, has now withdrawn, switching production to China—a sad reflection on Gordon Brown and his sterling policies, which have stopped exports and sucked in cheap imports. Yesterday's interest rate rise will be met with horror by the small businesses of Clackmannanshire.

During the past 10 years, more than 6,000 manufacturing jobs have been lost—350 in the past month and more than 1,100 in the past 12 months. However, the problem runs much deeper than that and the exact root causes need to be identified and dealt with.

In the recent spate of redundancies and closures, Clackmannanshire is not unique. Fife west of the M90 is another area that has suffered high unemployment and social deprivation,

especially in the former mining villages. The current rumours of threats to almost 1,000 jobs at Babcock Rosyth will inevitably inflict further hardship on that part of Scotland and along the north shore of the Forth estuary. Rosyth and Dunfermline are within the Clackmannanshire travel-to-work area, and a decrease in employment opportunities in those places will have a major impact in Clackmannanshire. Unemployment has already risen to nearly double the national average—to 11 per cent—and female unemployment has risen by 36 per cent.

The area's problems are well documented by the Henley Centre rankings. Despite that, it has initiated some very worthwhile projects, in conjunction with Forth Valley Enterprise and Fife Enterprise. I welcome the fact that the councils have made provision for small businesses and created opportunities for social technology partnerships, such as the Alloa SMART village and the exciting new Rosyth Europark project.

Ten days ago, following the announcement of the closure of Kilncraig mill with the loss of 240 jobs, the Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning attended a meeting in Alloa with local council officials, enterprise companies, councillors, the Westminster MP and the three local MSPs. As a result of that meeting, he agreed to the cross- party request for urgent action to provide aid to the area, for which the other MSPs and I are very grateful.

One heartening aspect of this situation has been the almost unanimous non-partisan approach to the problems of the area. I say almost, as I must make an exception for the MSP for Dunfermline West, who refused to support my motion on the ground that no problems exist. It is nice to know that Mr Barrie has his finger on the pulse.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2152E53P75C707356", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Clackmannanshire and West Fife (Unemployment) ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26793, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 902.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 902.0, "ID": 26793, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnston, Nick", "ID": 2152, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nick Johnston", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Johnston: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 924.0, "ContributionID": 707356, "EditedText": "Thank you, John.In a recent reply to a question, Sarah Boyack said that, providing everything goes to plan, work on a replacement for the Kincardine bridge could start in 2003. The bridge will take around four years to build and will be built only if the Government releases the money. In the current economic climate, there is no guarantee of that happening and no business will make plans for inward investment under such conditions. The policy puts in doubt the long-term future of Longannet power station, which depends on road- delivered coal, which it blends with the deep coal from the Longannet complex.The recent closure of Downie's Bridge showed how isolated Clackmannanshire is. Industry needs transport to bring raw materials in and take finished goods out. Alloa is the only town of its size in Scotland not to be served by rail. Several local industries could make good use of rail transport if it was available. The Forth was, for centuries, the major import and export route out of Stirling. The monopoly of Forth Ports must be removed and Alloa docks must be reopened to shipping from the continent. Improved road and rail transport on the north side of the Forth will enhance the prospects for the proposed roll-on roll-off ferry at Rosyth. All those proposals were in the Government's promises on coming to power. Why are they not being implemented? Not only would they help to reduce unemployment in west Fife and Clackmannanshire, they would reduce traffic on the Forth and Kincardine bridges, which is part of the Government's policy. We have the will, the expertise and the pool of labour to be retrained. We need the political will to invest in the infrastructure and an innovative approach to solving our problems. I hope that the minister will show that he has the political clout to deliver.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you, John.

In a recent reply to a question, Sarah Boyack said that, providing everything goes to plan, work on a replacement for the Kincardine bridge could start in 2003. The bridge will take around four years to build and will be built only if the Government releases the money. In the current economic climate, there is no guarantee of that happening and no business will make plans for inward investment under such conditions. The policy puts in doubt the long-term future of Longannet power station, which depends on road- delivered coal, which it blends with the deep coal

from the Longannet complex.

The recent closure of Downie's Bridge showed how isolated Clackmannanshire is. Industry needs transport to bring raw materials in and take finished goods out. Alloa is the only town of its size in Scotland not to be served by rail. Several local industries could make good use of rail transport if it was available. The Forth was, for centuries, the major import and export route out of Stirling. The monopoly of Forth Ports must be removed and Alloa docks must be reopened to shipping from the continent. Improved road and rail transport on the north side of the Forth will enhance the prospects for the proposed roll-on roll-off ferry at Rosyth.

All those proposals were in the Government's promises on coming to power. Why are they not being implemented? Not only would they help to reduce unemployment in west Fife and Clackmannanshire, they would reduce traffic on the Forth and Kincardine bridges, which is part of the Government's policy.

We have the will, the expertise and the pool of labour to be retrained. We need the political will to invest in the infrastructure and an innovative approach to solving our problems. I hope that the minister will show that he has the political clout to deliver.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C707357", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Clackmannanshire and West Fife (Unemployment) ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26793, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 902.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 902.0, "ID": 26793, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Richard Simpson (Ochil) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 927.0, "ContributionID": 707357, "EditedText": "I welcome the opportunity to address the chamber on this matter. As Nick said, Clackmannanshire has suffered from the decline of traditional industries, although in the case of the mining industry the suffering was significantly exacerbated by his party's Government. The most recent decline has been in the wool and textiles industry. That problem is not only local; all the developed world is suffering as the industry moves to developing countries. In the past 20 years, the Government has funded few—if any—manufacturing jobs in Clackmannanshire. Clackmannanshire has received only a small share of the funds that have been made available for job creation through bodies such as Locate in Scotland. The recent announcement by the Coats Viyella group of the closure of its operations in Alloa is a particularly sad event. It severs a 200-year-old association between that employer—in the form of Patons—and the community. The people in the wee county have contributed much over many years to the profits of the company. The company owes a debt to those people. This week, the company was valued on the stock exchange at £350 million, so not only does it have a moral obligation, it has the funds to assist the county by making available the sites that it occupies to other industries that might want to take up the opportunity for inward investment. I call on the company, as the council has, to transfer the ownership of the factory sites to a mutually acceptable body—whether that be the council or a local enterprise company. The decision-making process of the Coats Viyella group and similar companies is extremely worrying and members should address it soon. The company closed three plants in one town during a five-month period without a word of warning to the employees, the unions, the council, the local enterprise companies or members of the Parliament. I find that not just old-fashioned and out of date, but totally unacceptable and thoughtless. A previous Conservative Prime Minister said that the Rowlands companies were the unacceptable face of capitalism. To me, that is the unacceptable face of business today. It is not good practice and it is not acceptable. I discovered the company shortly after I was elected and asked it about the effects of the minimum wage and the working time directive. Prior to the directive coming out, it was still paying its cleaning staff £2.60 per hour. We would not expect that, but I am proud of the fact that this Government has introduced a minimum wage to ensure that such things do not happen. An issue for the future that I regard as important is the climate energy tax. The six plants in my constituency are all high energy users, but they are efficient high energy users, benchmarked against the rest of their own industry and theoretical minimum energy uses. The energy tax that is proposed, but which has not yet been introduced, by the UK Government will disadvantage those companies against European and world competition. I urge the Scottish Executive—in discussions with our Westminster colleagues—to take great care with the jobs in my constituency and in the rest of Scotland. The tax should be about efficient energy use, not simple energy use. I support the tax in respect of its encouraging efficient energy use, but I am dismayed at the prospect of further job losses in my constituency resulting from a bludgeon tax, applied inappropriately. I therefore call for the tax to be reconsidered. I welcome the Executive's efforts over the past few weeks. Although Nick feels that everything was produced from up our sleeves only in the past few days, some of us have been working on this with the Executive—and I know that members have been calling for it—for the past few months as the unemployment situation in the area began to deteriorate compared with the rest of Scotland. Unemployment is still lower than it was when we came to power, but there is no doubt that it is deteriorating substantially against the rest of Scotland. That is extremely worrying. The most important thing about the announcement is not the funds and how much money is involved initially, but the Scottish Executive's commitment to a partnership with the council, Forth Valley Enterprise and Clackmannanshire Enterprise, to ensure that there is progress over a sustained period. We can now get the direct ear of the minister without having to write or badger him daily. We can progress. However, I appeal to the minister that we need to have adequate representation from Locate in Scotland on the committee. It must be at a level and of a nature that ensures that we obtain our share of the Locate in Scotland money. We need to have major industry, preferably in IT and biotechnology, to which the First Minister referred, and in which many jobs have been created over the past few weeks. We need them now in Clackmannanshire. The Executive is doing its bit, with the creation of a number of jobs ranging from community police officers to child care providers. There are 194 18 to 24-year-olds on the new deal programme and 111 youngsters are involved in the modern apprenticeship programme. There is a commitment from the public sector in that area. I have two final points. First, I welcome the initiative of the local Churches. Their support provides the moral leadership that is needed by the people of Clackmannanshire at this difficult time. Members would be welcome to come and see Clackmannanshire; it is a beautiful place to live and work. We have a backdrop of one of Scotland's most beautiful sites, the Ochil hills. Secondly, we need good access, to which Nick referred. The A907 should be a trunk road and taken over by the Scottish Executive. We also need a date for the Clackmannanshire bridge and a rail link. Improved transport infrastructure would open up this beautiful part of the country to the job prospects that my constituents deserve.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the opportunity to address the chamber on this matter. As Nick said, Clackmannanshire has suffered from the decline of traditional industries, although in the case of the mining industry the suffering was significantly exacerbated by his party's Government.

The most recent decline has been in the wool and textiles industry. That problem is not only local; all the developed world is suffering as the industry moves to developing countries. In the past 20 years, the Government has funded few—if any—manufacturing jobs in Clackmannanshire. Clackmannanshire has received only a small share of the funds that have been made available for job creation through bodies such as Locate in Scotland.

The recent announcement by the Coats Viyella group of the closure of its operations in Alloa is a particularly sad event. It severs a 200-year-old association between that employer—in the form of Patons—and the community. The people in the wee county have contributed much over many years to the profits of the company. The company owes a debt to those people. This week, the company was valued on the stock exchange at £350 million, so not only does it have a moral obligation, it has the funds to assist the county by making available the sites that it occupies to other industries that might want to take up the opportunity for inward investment.

I call on the company, as the council has, to transfer the ownership of the factory sites to a mutually acceptable body—whether that be the council or a local enterprise company. The decision-making process of the Coats Viyella group and similar companies is extremely worrying and members should address it soon. The company closed three plants in one town during a five-month period without a word of warning to the employees, the unions, the council, the local enterprise companies or members of the Parliament.

I find that not just old-fashioned and out of date, but totally unacceptable and thoughtless. A previous Conservative Prime Minister said that the Rowlands companies were the unacceptable face of capitalism. To me, that is the unacceptable face of business today. It is not good practice and it is not acceptable.

I discovered the company shortly after I was elected and asked it about the effects of the minimum wage and the working time directive. Prior to the directive coming out, it was still paying its cleaning staff £2.60 per hour. We would not expect that, but I am proud of the fact that this Government has introduced a minimum wage to ensure that such things do not happen.

An issue for the future that I regard as important is the climate energy tax. The six plants in my constituency are all high energy users, but they are efficient high energy users, benchmarked against the rest of their own industry and theoretical minimum energy uses.

The energy tax that is proposed, but which has not yet been introduced, by the UK Government will disadvantage those companies against European and world competition. I urge the Scottish Executive—in discussions with our Westminster colleagues—to take great care with the jobs in my constituency and in the rest of Scotland. The tax should be about efficient energy use, not simple energy use. I support the tax in respect of its encouraging efficient energy use, but I am dismayed at the prospect of further job losses in my constituency resulting from a bludgeon tax, applied inappropriately. I therefore call for the tax to be reconsidered.

I welcome the Executive's efforts over the past few weeks. Although Nick feels that everything was produced from up our sleeves only in the past few days, some of us have been working on this with the Executive—and I know that members have been calling for it—for the past few months as the unemployment situation in the area began to deteriorate compared with the rest of Scotland.

Unemployment is still lower than it was when we came to power, but there is no doubt that it is deteriorating substantially against the rest of Scotland. That is extremely worrying.

The most important thing about the announcement is not the funds and how much money is involved initially, but the Scottish Executive's commitment to a partnership with the council, Forth Valley Enterprise and Clackmannanshire Enterprise, to ensure that there is progress over a sustained period. We can now get the direct ear of the minister without having to write or badger him daily. We can progress.

However, I appeal to the minister that we need to have adequate representation from Locate in Scotland on the committee. It must be at a level and of a nature that ensures that we obtain our share of the Locate in Scotland money. We need to have major industry, preferably in IT and biotechnology, to which the First Minister referred, and in which many jobs have been created over the past few weeks. We need them now in Clackmannanshire.

The Executive is doing its bit, with the creation of a number of jobs ranging from community police officers to child care providers. There are 194 18 to 24-year-olds on the new deal programme and 111 youngsters are involved in the modern apprenticeship programme. There is a commitment from the public sector in that area.

I have two final points. First, I welcome the initiative of the local Churches. Their support provides the moral leadership that is needed by the people of Clackmannanshire at this difficult time. Members would be welcome to come and see Clackmannanshire; it is a beautiful place to live and work. We have a backdrop of one of Scotland's most beautiful sites, the Ochil hills.

Secondly, we need good access, to which Nick referred. The A907 should be a trunk road and taken over by the Scottish Executive. We also need a date for the Clackmannanshire bridge and a rail link. Improved transport infrastructure would open up this beautiful part of the country to the job prospects that my constituents deserve.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2207E94P262C707360", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Clackmannanshire and West Fife (Unemployment) ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26793, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 902.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 902.0, "ID": 26793, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Barrie, Scott", "ID": 2207, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dunfermline West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Scott Barrie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Scott Barrie (Dunfermline West) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 935.0, "ContributionID": 707360, "EditedText": "Contrary to what Nick Johnston said, it is not true that I am not interested in the debate; rather, as I wrote to him by e-mail, I feel that the motion is factually incorrect as unemployment is not escalating in the west Fife villages. As Richard Simpson said for Clackmannanshire, unemployment has declined dramatically in the west Fife villages over the past two or three years. That is not to say that there is not a problem in the west Fife villages, which have been ravaged by the rundown of our traditional industries in the past two or three decades. The possibility of job losses at Babcock Rosyth, which was covered sensationally by the press last week, has been known about since the Tory Government cynically betrayed the Rosyth work force by awarding the refit contract to Devonport on political rather than financial grounds. It is nice to see Conservatives taking an interest in the west Fife economy at this late stage, but it is very much a Johnny-come-lately interest. Over the past two decades, the people of Fife have learned to rely on themselves. They have worked closely with organisations such as West Fife Enterprise, which is based at Torryburn and Valleyfield. West Fife Enterprise has been immensely successful in driving forward job opportunities for a number of people in the villages. The recent developments of Lauder College are encouraging; its computer skills outpost at Valleyfield community centre has increased the skills base of the potential work force in the villages. It is true that Dunfermline and west Fife have a fair number of social problems, but we should not run the area down. We should acknowledge the efforts of the local people over the years to improve their lot, and should acknowledge the fact that unemployment has declined dramatically in the past two years. The latest figures show that none of the four wards in the west Fife villages has an unemployment rate that is greater than the Fife average.", "EditedTextHTML": "Contrary to what Nick Johnston said, it is not true that I am not interested in the debate; rather, as I wrote to him by e-mail, I feel that the motion is factually incorrect as unemployment is not escalating in the west Fife villages.

As Richard Simpson said for Clackmannanshire, unemployment has declined dramatically in the west Fife villages over the past two or three years. That is not to say that there is not a problem in the west Fife villages, which have been ravaged by the rundown of our traditional industries in the past two or three decades.

The possibility of job losses at Babcock Rosyth, which was covered sensationally by the press last week, has been known about since the Tory Government cynically betrayed the Rosyth work force by awarding the refit contract to Devonport on political rather than financial grounds. It is nice to see Conservatives taking an interest in the west Fife economy at this late stage, but it is very much a Johnny-come-lately interest.

Over the past two decades, the people of Fife have learned to rely on themselves. They have worked closely with organisations such as West Fife Enterprise, which is based at Torryburn and Valleyfield. West Fife Enterprise has been immensely successful in driving forward job opportunities for a number of people in the villages. The recent developments of Lauder College are encouraging; its computer skills outpost at Valleyfield community centre has increased the skills base of the potential work force in the villages.

It is true that Dunfermline and west Fife have a fair number of social problems, but we should not run the area down. We should acknowledge the efforts of the local people over the years to improve their lot, and should acknowledge the fact that unemployment has declined dramatically in the past two years. The latest figures show that none of the four wards in the west Fife villages has an unemployment rate that is greater than the Fife average.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1876E194P490C707361", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Clackmannanshire and West Fife (Unemployment) ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26793, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 902.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 902.0, "ID": 26793, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Marwick, Tricia", "ID": 1876, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tricia Marwick", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tricia Marwick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 938.0, "ContributionID": 707361, "EditedText": "I am grateful to Nick Johnston for lodging today's motion. He has suggested a few solutions; I also welcome those of my colleague, George Reid. Most of the debate has centred on Clackmannanshire, as it should, but Scott Barrie should realise that the problems in west Fife affect places other than the villages. Unemployment in Clackmannan and Fife is disgracefully high—almost double the UK average. If Scott can take comfort from that, he is probably the only one. The responsibility for structurally high unemployment rests with Nick Johnston and the Conservatives' scorched-earth policy in the coalfields. That is where our high unemployment came from, along with the discrimination against Rosyth. I accept that.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful to Nick Johnston for lodging today's motion. He has suggested a few solutions; I also welcome those of my colleague, George Reid. Most of the debate has centred on Clackmannanshire, as it should, but Scott Barrie should realise that the problems in west Fife affect places other than the villages.

Unemployment in Clackmannan and Fife is disgracefully high—almost double the UK average. If Scott can take comfort from that, he is probably the only one. The responsibility for structurally high unemployment rests with Nick Johnston and the Conservatives' scorched-earth policy in the coalfields. That is where our high unemployment came from, along with the discrimination against Rosyth. I accept that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2207E94P262C707362", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Clackmannanshire and West Fife (Unemployment) ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26793, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 902.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 902.0, "ID": 26793, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Barrie, Scott", "ID": 2207, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dunfermline West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Scott Barrie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Scott Barrie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 940.0, "ContributionID": 707362, "EditedText": "Will Tricia Marwick give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Tricia Marwick give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1876E194P490C707363", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Clackmannanshire and West Fife (Unemployment) ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26793, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 902.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 902.0, "ID": 26793, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Marwick, Tricia", "ID": 1876, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tricia Marwick", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tricia Marwick: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 942.0, "ContributionID": 707363, "EditedText": "No, I am not giving way, Scott.Recent events have not covered the Executive in any glory. The Executive has sat back and allowed indigenous, well-run companies to go to the wall. It has invested all the enterprise eggs in Fife in the Hyundai basket. Hyundai has created few jobs apart from in construction, and most of them were not in Fife. I give fair warning here and now on Rosyth. I accept that we have known about the problems of Rosyth and its contracts for a long time. However, it is the Labour Government that is responsible for allocating those contracts. Rosyth has the best workers in the United Kingdom, the most skilled and the most qualified. If Rosyth goes down the tubes, the Labour party in Fife will not be forgiven, in the same way that the SNP does not forgive Nick Johnston and the Conservatives for the years from 1979 to 1997. Rosyth must stay. I want a commitment from the Scottish Executive that it will fight for Rosyth to ensure that those jobs are retained.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I am not giving way, Scott.

Recent events have not covered the Executive in any glory. The Executive has sat back and allowed indigenous, well-run companies to go to the wall. It has invested all the enterprise eggs in Fife in the Hyundai basket. Hyundai has created few jobs apart from in construction, and most of them were not in Fife.

I give fair warning here and now on Rosyth. I accept that we have known about the problems of Rosyth and its contracts for a long time. However, it is the Labour Government that is responsible for allocating those contracts. Rosyth has the best workers in the United Kingdom, the most skilled and the most qualified. If Rosyth goes down the tubes, the Labour party in Fife will not be forgiven, in the same way that the SNP does not forgive Nick Johnston and the Conservatives for the years from 1979 to 1997.

Rosyth must stay. I want a commitment from the Scottish Executive that it will fight for Rosyth to ensure that those jobs are retained.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2154E194P299C707367", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Clackmannanshire and West Fife (Unemployment) ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26793, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 902.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 902.0, "ID": 26793, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stephen, Nicol", "ID": 2154, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Nicol Stephen", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning (Nicol Stephen): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 952.0, "ContributionID": 707367, "EditedText": "I will do my best. I thank Nick Johnston for initiating the debate and for raising some important issues. I hope that everyone will agree that the opportunity to discuss the issues so speedily following the unfortunate job losses in Clackmannanshire in recent weeks is one of the considerable benefits of having the Scottish Parliament. I welcome John Swinney's speech, indicating that the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee will be able to discuss the matter very soon. I thank Nick Johnston for his support for the quick action that has been taken, and for saying that these matters should be advanced on a cross- party basis, an opinion with which I strongly agree. I also thank Richard Simpson for his contribution. I assure him that Forth Valley Enterprise is in discussion with Coats Viyella to secure the release of sites for future redevelopment, and that Henry McLeish is writing to the United Kingdom Government about the climate change levy. No decision has been taken yet as to how that levy will be applied. If I am to keep to time, I will have to rattle through several issues. I especially want to thank George Reid for giving me notice of his questions; I will take up some of them now, but I will try to respond separately in writing to the ones that I do not cover. It is clear that there has been a considerable number of job losses—too many. However, it is important to remember that there have been some good-news stories as well: BSkyB has created over 600 jobs in Dunfermline; and even in Clackmannanshire, where the problems have been greater, there has been success in the retail and textile sectors. I do not want to state whether the following represents good or bad news—the facts speak for themselves—but for the record, Clackmannanshire now has an unemployment rate of 9 per cent, which is down from 10.4 per cent last year and down from 12.8 per cent back in 1996. The Scottish average is down from 6 per cent to 5.7 per cent. In the Dunfermline travel-to-work area, the rate is down from 7.5 per cent to 6.2 per cent. We all agree that those figures are too high. On infrastructure, I understand that representations have been made to try to bring forward, if possible, the publication of the orders for the Clackmannanshire bridge—the new crossing of the Forth. The time scale that is being talked about is spring 2001, and I know that Henry McLeish will be considering that. Henry McLeish is aware of the disruption that was caused by the recent emergency work on the A907, and I can readily understand the desire to upgrade it. However, it is not a trunk road, and those decisions are a matter for Clackmannanshire Council. In relation to the proposed Stirling-Alloa-Dunfermline rail link, the Executive is committed to getting more people on to public transport and is aware of Clackmannanshire Council's application for public transport fund support to reopen the link. We await the results with interest. To make progress, I shall skip over some of my comments. The encouraging example that I referred to earlier is Castleblair, which has created 120 textile jobs at Alva. Henry McLeish visited the company, and a number of people from one of the earlier Coats Viyella closures have been reemployed there. Even in an industry such as textiles—although it is clearly in decline in Scotland—there are some positive prospects. Henry McLeish visited Clackmannanshire and met councillors, MPs, MSPs and representatives from Forth Valley Enterprise, the Clackmannanshire strategic alliance and the business community to hear their concerns. It is important to recognise the lead role of local enterprise companies in promoting economic regeneration in partnership with the private sector and with other public sector bodies. Henry McLeish has announced that Scottish Enterprise has awarded Forth Valley Enterprise an extra £500,000 for projects in Clackmannanshire and Falkirk. That has been matched by this morning's announcement by Forth Valley Enterprise that, as a result, it has leveraged extra funding into the Clackmannanshire area, which brings the total of additional funds for Clackmannanshire to £1.5 million. I am pleased to say that two office and industrial developments in the Alloa SMART village will be started as part of that package. I have to say to George Reid that that investment is very much welcomed and applauded by the Scottish Executive and will provide quality business space for new and expanding firms. Locate in Scotland has met Clackmannanshire Council and Forth Valley Enterprise and has visited the area on several occasions to introduce it to potential clients and to brief interested parties. The organisation is also working on a number of possible clients who are considering Clackmannanshire as a potential location. Yesterday, officials from Locate in Scotland, Clackmannanshire Council, Forth Valley Enterprise and the Scottish Executive met a potential investor to discuss a possible investment for 2000. West Fife has had some good news recently. Lexmark International has opened a second plant on its Rosyth site, creating 200 new jobs on top of the 500 existing jobs. There have been other examples of positive news in the area. Fife Enterprise and all the public and private sector agencies are supporting the Rosyth 2000 initiative. There are prospects, including the local enterprise company's work to encourage new developments such as the proposed roll-on, roll-off ferry from Rosyth to Europe. The Scottish Executive is being kept aware of Babcock Rosyth's efforts to secure new commercial business and is in regular discussion with the company about possible financial support for projects. It has always been recognised that it would be difficult for the company to find enough commercial business to compensate for the loss of its core naval repair work, and the company has made no secret of the need for further redundancies. However, it is clearly for the company to decide when such announcements will be made. Henry McLeish is writing to Margo MacDonald, following her question in Parliament last week, and to Scott Barrie to set out the Scottish Executive's position and role in supporting Babcock to identify new work.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will do my best.

I thank Nick Johnston for initiating the debate and for raising some important issues. I hope that everyone will agree that the opportunity to discuss the issues so speedily following the unfortunate job losses in Clackmannanshire in recent weeks is one of the considerable benefits of having the Scottish Parliament.

I welcome John Swinney's speech, indicating that the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee will be able to discuss the matter very soon.

I thank Nick Johnston for his support for the quick action that has been taken, and for saying that these matters should be advanced on a cross- party basis, an opinion with which I strongly agree. I also thank Richard Simpson for his contribution. I assure him that Forth Valley Enterprise is in discussion with Coats Viyella to secure the release of sites for future redevelopment, and that Henry

McLeish is writing to the United Kingdom Government about the climate change levy. No decision has been taken yet as to how that levy will be applied.

If I am to keep to time, I will have to rattle through several issues. I especially want to thank George Reid for giving me notice of his questions; I will take up some of them now, but I will try to respond separately in writing to the ones that I do not cover.

It is clear that there has been a considerable number of job losses—too many. However, it is important to remember that there have been some good-news stories as well: BSkyB has created over 600 jobs in Dunfermline; and even in Clackmannanshire, where the problems have been greater, there has been success in the retail and textile sectors.

I do not want to state whether the following represents good or bad news—the facts speak for themselves—but for the record, Clackmannanshire now has an unemployment rate of 9 per cent, which is down from 10.4 per cent last year and down from 12.8 per cent back in 1996. The Scottish average is down from 6 per cent to 5.7 per cent. In the Dunfermline travel-to-work area, the rate is down from 7.5 per cent to

6.2 per cent. We all agree that those figures are too high. On infrastructure, I understand that representations have been made to try to bring forward, if possible, the publication of the orders for the Clackmannanshire bridge—the new crossing of the Forth. The time scale that is being talked about is spring 2001, and I know that Henry McLeish will be considering that.

Henry McLeish is aware of the disruption that was caused by the recent emergency work on the A907, and I can readily understand the desire to upgrade it. However, it is not a trunk road, and those decisions are a matter for Clackmannanshire Council. In relation to the proposed Stirling-Alloa-

Dunfermline rail link, the Executive is committed to getting more people on to public transport and is aware of Clackmannanshire Council's application for public transport fund support to reopen the link. We await the results with interest.

To make progress, I shall skip over some of my comments. The encouraging example that I referred to earlier is Castleblair, which has created 120 textile jobs at Alva. Henry McLeish visited the company, and a number of people from one of the earlier Coats Viyella closures have been reemployed there. Even in an industry such as textiles—although it is clearly in decline in Scotland—there are some positive prospects.

Henry McLeish visited Clackmannanshire and met councillors, MPs, MSPs and representatives from Forth Valley Enterprise, the Clackmannanshire strategic alliance and the business community to hear their concerns. It is important to recognise the lead role of local enterprise companies in promoting economic regeneration in partnership with the private sector and with other public sector bodies.

Henry McLeish has announced that Scottish Enterprise has awarded Forth Valley Enterprise an extra £500,000 for projects in Clackmannanshire and Falkirk. That has been matched by this morning's announcement by Forth Valley Enterprise that, as a result, it has leveraged extra funding into the Clackmannanshire area, which brings the total of additional funds for Clackmannanshire to £1.5 million. I am pleased to say that two office and industrial developments in the Alloa SMART village will be started as part of that package. I have to say to George Reid that that investment is very much welcomed and applauded by the Scottish Executive and will provide quality business space for new and expanding firms.

Locate in Scotland has met Clackmannanshire Council and Forth Valley Enterprise and has visited the area on several occasions to introduce it to potential clients and to brief interested parties. The organisation is also working on a number of possible clients who are considering Clackmannanshire as a potential location. Yesterday, officials from Locate in Scotland, Clackmannanshire Council, Forth Valley Enterprise and the Scottish Executive met a potential investor to discuss a possible investment for 2000.

West Fife has had some good news recently. Lexmark International has opened a second plant on its Rosyth site, creating 200 new jobs on top of the 500 existing jobs. There have been other examples of positive news in the area. Fife Enterprise and all the public and private sector agencies are supporting the Rosyth 2000 initiative. There are prospects, including the local enterprise company's work to encourage new developments such as the proposed roll-on, roll-off ferry from Rosyth to Europe.

The Scottish Executive is being kept aware of Babcock Rosyth's efforts to secure new commercial business and is in regular discussion with the company about possible financial support for projects. It has always been recognised that it would be difficult for the company to find enough commercial business to compensate for the loss of its core naval repair work, and the company has made no secret of the need for further redundancies. However, it is clearly for the company to decide when such announcements will be made. Henry McLeish is writing to Margo MacDonald, following her question in Parliament last week, and to Scott Barrie to set out the Scottish Executive's position and role in supporting Babcock to identify new work.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1876E194P490C707368", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Clackmannanshire and West Fife (Unemployment) ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26793, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 902.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 902.0, "ID": 26793, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Marwick, Tricia", "ID": 1876, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tricia Marwick", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tricia Marwick: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 954.0, "ContributionID": 707368, "EditedText": "May I intervene?", "EditedTextHTML": "May I intervene?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1876E194P490C707370", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Clackmannanshire and West Fife (Unemployment) ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26793, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 902.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 902.0, "ID": 26793, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Marwick, Tricia", "ID": 1876, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tricia Marwick", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tricia Marwick: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 958.0, "ContributionID": 707370, "EditedText": "It is a matter of courtesy. It is perfectly proper for Henry McLeish to write to Margo MacDonald, because she asked a question, and to Scott Barrie, who is the constituency MSP. However, can the same courtesy be extended to all MSPs who represent Mid Scotland and Fife, not just to the constituency MSP?", "EditedTextHTML": "It is a matter of courtesy. It is perfectly proper for Henry McLeish to write to Margo MacDonald, because she asked a question, and to Scott Barrie, who is the constituency MSP. However, can the same courtesy be extended to all MSPs who represent Mid Scotland and Fife, not just to the constituency MSP?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "C707373", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Clackmannanshire and West Fife (Unemployment) ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26793, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 902.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 902.0, "ID": 26793, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 964.0, "ContributionID": 707373, "EditedText": "Meeting closed at 17:42.", "EditedTextHTML": "Meeting closed at 17:42.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706914", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 4.0, "ContributionID": 706914, "EditedText": "Good morning. The main item of business this morning is a debate on motion S1M-127, in the name of the First Minister, on the Executive's programme for government and an amendment to that motion, S1M-127.1, in the name of Mr Alex Salmond. The debate will last most of the day, but we interrupt it at 12.20 pm for the business motion. I call the First Minister to speak to and move the motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "Good morning. The main item of business this morning is a debate on motion S1M-127, in the name of the First Minister, on the Executive's programme for government and an amendment to that motion, S1M-127.1, in the name of Mr Alex Salmond. The debate will last most of the day, but we interrupt it at 12.20 pm for the business motion.

I call the First Minister to speak to and move the motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C706916", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 9.0, "ContributionID": 706916, "EditedText": "They were brilliant.", "EditedTextHTML": "They were brilliant.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C706921", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 19.0, "ContributionID": 706921, "EditedText": "I am not ashamed to say that I believe in public-private partnership—it is essential if we are to make progress. I listened to people in the general election with great care; at face value—I realise that the pressure of electioneering affects all parties—other parties seemed to be saying, \"Stop the hospital building programme, don't modernise our schools.\" I will not go along with that Luddite approach.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am not ashamed to say that I believe in public-private partnership—it is essential if we are to make progress. I listened to people in the general election with great care; at face value—I realise that the pressure of

electioneering affects all parties—other parties seemed to be saying, \"Stop the hospital building programme, don't modernise our schools.\" I will not go along with that Luddite approach.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C706922", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie (Lothians) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 21.0, "ContributionID": 706922, "EditedText": "Will Mr Dewar give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr Dewar give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C706923", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 23.0, "ContributionID": 706923, "EditedText": "No.In October, the working families tax credit comes into effect. It is estimated that 130,000 families in Scotland—working families, struggling with low pay—will benefit; the added value will be about £170 million. That is direct help to make work worth while. That measure goes with a more accessible health service and better educational standards, which are our responsibility, and with other measures to tackle poverty, create opportunity and build for the future. This Government will never accept a future that offers success for the few and continuing injustice to the many.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

In October, the working families tax credit comes into effect. It is estimated that 130,000 families in Scotland—working families, struggling with low pay—will benefit; the added value will be about £170 million. That is direct help to make work worth while.

That measure goes with a more accessible health service and better educational standards, which are our responsibility, and with other measures to tackle poverty, create opportunity and build for the future. This Government will never accept a future that offers success for the few and continuing injustice to the many.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C706924", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan (Glasgow) (SSP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 25.0, "ContributionID": 706924, "EditedText": "I am pleased to note that you have mentioned tackling poverty several times this morning, but I remind you of one of your first answers to me when I asked for a specific, measurable and achievable target for tackling poverty in Scotland: you told me that you were not interested in simplistic targets. You will be aware that your leader has now set a target of lifting 1.25 million people in Britain out of poverty; what is your target for lifting people out of poverty in Scotland?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am pleased to note that you have mentioned tackling poverty several times this morning, but I remind you of one of your first answers to me when I asked for a specific, measurable and achievable target for tackling poverty in Scotland: you told me that you were not interested in simplistic targets. You will be aware that your leader has now set a target of lifting 1.25 million people in Britain out of poverty; what is your target for lifting people out of poverty in Scotland?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706925", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 27.0, "ContributionID": 706925, "EditedText": "Order. Before Mr Dewar replies, I remind Mr Sheridan that I cannot give an answer to that question. Questions should be addressed through me to Mr Dewar.", "EditedTextHTML": "Order. Before Mr Dewar replies, I remind Mr Sheridan that I cannot give an answer to that question. Questions should be addressed through me to Mr Dewar.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C706927", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 31.0, "ContributionID": 706927, "EditedText": "A sorry Mr Sheridan is a thing indeed. I understand his concerns but I am sure that he has read the document and knows that on almost every page there is a series of timed objectives and targets. I hope that he will support us in the vote later today. I believe that anyone who is interested in these problems and wants progress may argue about the detail and the weighting in our programme, but I am sure that anyone of good will and sense will want to support its drive and thrust. I hope that Mr Sheridan will be such a person. A lot of things are happening, such as the national minimum wage and the national income guarantee for pensioners, that are outside the Executive's responsibility, but a lot is also happening in our areas of responsibility—that is outlined in the document. Our programme is full of innovation. I can think of no more radical and fundamental reform than the proposals on community ownership in housing. We will tackle the debt problem and create room for investment in the housing stock, which has been crumbling and is hardly viable in many areas. We will also put the tenants and their elected representatives at the very heart of the management of that housing stock. There is a great deal of work to be done—I do not hide that fact. There are difficulties that may turn out to be formidable. Up to now, opposition has largely consisted of cries of \"privatisation\". Our reforms are not, and cannot possibly be regarded as, privatisation. They are a proper reorganisation of resources to improve the housing stock. They put the community in charge of its own affairs and of the future of the housing stock. I challenge the Opposition to be constructive and to build with us a new democratic structure in an area in which change is long overdue. The foundation for the future is an economy that works, grows and offers hope. The Scottish economy is changing, and we should not be afraid of change. There will be disappointments, but we should all look to the century that is coming, not back to the one that we are leaving; if we look back, we will do nothing to encourage our prospects in the next century. There is good news. At a press conference last Friday, a journalist asked me why the announcement of new high-technology jobs was timed for the day on which Tony Blair visited Scotland. Was it, I was asked with a gleam of malice, just a coincidence? The answer was that it was a very good week, and that the same question could have been asked on any day of that week. I remind people of what happened that week: Amtel announced 200 high-technology jobs in Hamilton; Quintiles announced 1,500 biotechnology jobs in West Lothian; Motorola announced 200 computing jobs in South Queensferry; Compaq announced the important news that its two major plants in Scotland would not suffer as a result of a global reduction in the company's work force; and Unisys announced 350 software jobs in Glasgow. Those are jobs at the cutting edge of the new economy. It is right that we should take satisfaction from that and work to build on it.", "EditedTextHTML": "A sorry Mr Sheridan is a thing indeed. I understand his concerns but I am sure that he has read the document and knows that on almost every page there is a series of timed objectives and targets. I hope that he will support us in the vote later today. I believe that anyone who is interested in these problems and wants progress may argue about the detail and the weighting in our programme, but I am sure that anyone of good will and sense will want to support its drive and thrust. I hope that Mr Sheridan will be such a person.

A lot of things are happening, such as the national minimum wage and the national income guarantee for pensioners, that are outside the Executive's responsibility, but a lot is also happening in our areas of responsibility—that is outlined in the document.

Our programme is full of innovation. I can think of no more radical and fundamental reform than the proposals on community ownership in housing. We will tackle the debt problem and create room for investment in the housing stock, which has been crumbling and is hardly viable in many areas. We will also put the tenants and their elected representatives at the very heart of the management of that housing stock.

There is a great deal of work to be done—I do not hide that fact. There are difficulties that may turn out to be formidable. Up to now, opposition has largely consisted of cries of \"privatisation\". Our reforms are not, and cannot possibly be regarded as, privatisation. They are a proper reorganisation of resources to improve the housing stock. They put the community in charge of its own affairs and of the future of the housing stock. I challenge the Opposition to be constructive and to build with us a new democratic structure in an area in which change is long overdue.

The foundation for the future is an economy that works, grows and offers hope. The Scottish economy is changing, and we should not be afraid of change. There will be disappointments, but we should all look to the century that is coming, not back to the one that we are leaving; if we look back, we will do nothing to encourage our prospects in the next century.

There is good news. At a press conference last Friday, a journalist asked me why the announcement of new high-technology jobs was timed for the day on which Tony Blair visited Scotland. Was it, I was asked with a gleam of malice, just a coincidence? The answer was that it was a very good week, and that the same question could have been asked on any day of that week.

I remind people of what happened that week: Amtel announced 200 high-technology jobs in Hamilton; Quintiles announced 1,500 biotechnology jobs in West Lothian; Motorola announced 200 computing jobs in South Queensferry; Compaq announced the important news that its two major plants in Scotland would not suffer as a result of a global reduction in the company's work force; and Unisys announced 350 software jobs in Glasgow. Those are jobs at the cutting edge of the new economy. It is right that we should take satisfaction from that and work to build on it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C706929", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 35.0, "ContributionID": 706929, "EditedText": "I have given evidence in the past two or three minutes to show that we have been standing up effectively for the Scottish economy. We have certainly not got into the ludicrous muddle that has marked the nationalists' position on interest rates, with which John Swinney has wrestled with some honesty but with great difficulty. As I understand it, if the SNP had its way, an independent Scotland would shadow the English pound for an indefinite period, so that we would have even less influence over interest rates than we have now, although we would certainly have to accept the consequences of them. The independence of the monetary policy committee has been widely welcomed. Even the Conservative party now accepts that handing control of interest rates to a technical committee is a sensible way of ensuring that small adjustments can be made outwith political pressures to maintain a very low inflation rate—2 per cent— remarkably effectively. That objective has been achieved. To complain about it is almost perverse. It is in our interests, as it is in the interests of the rest of the country, that downward pressure should be maintained on inflation. I suspect that that is why interest rates have been marginally adjusted on this occasion. John Swinney quotes the words of one bank, so let me quote the words of another. The Bank of Scotland quarterly report, produced on 1 September—I am sure that Alex Salmond will remember it—shows that, in Scotland, \"activity in both manufacturing and service sectors . . . have risen again in August, with improved order books and business confidence driving a further increase in employment within both sectors . . . In the manufacturing sector, output rose for the sixth consecutive month, rising at the fastest rate since January 1998 . . . New orders rose for the sixth month running, with the rate of growth the fastest since September 1997 . . . In the service sector, business activity rose for the tenth successive month\". That is not a cause for gloom or dismay. It is certainly not a cause for complacency, but it gives genuine grounds for confidence about the future.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have given evidence in the past two or three minutes to show that we have been standing up effectively for the Scottish economy. We have certainly not got into the ludicrous muddle that has marked the nationalists' position on interest rates, with which John Swinney has wrestled with some honesty but with great difficulty. As I understand it, if the SNP had its way, an independent Scotland would shadow the English pound for an indefinite period, so that we would have even less influence over interest rates than we have now, although we would certainly have to accept the consequences of them.

The independence of the monetary policy committee has been widely welcomed. Even the Conservative party now accepts that handing control of interest rates to a technical committee is a sensible way of ensuring that small adjustments can be made outwith political pressures to maintain a very low inflation rate—2 per cent— remarkably effectively. That objective has been achieved. To complain about it is almost perverse.

It is in our interests, as it is in the interests of the rest of the country, that downward pressure should be maintained on inflation. I suspect that that is why interest rates have been marginally adjusted on this occasion.

John Swinney quotes the words of one bank, so let me quote the words of another. The Bank of Scotland quarterly report, produced on 1 September—I am sure that Alex Salmond will remember it—shows that, in Scotland,

\"activity in both manufacturing and service sectors . . . have risen again in August, with improved order books and business confidence driving a further increase in employment within both sectors . . . In the manufacturing sector, output rose for the sixth consecutive month, rising at the fastest rate since January 1998 . . . New orders rose for the sixth month running, with the rate of growth the fastest since September 1997 . . . In the service sector, business activity rose for the tenth successive month\".

That is not a cause for gloom or dismay. It is certainly not a cause for complacency, but it gives genuine grounds for confidence about the future.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C706931", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 39.0, "ContributionID": 706931, "EditedText": "If Mr Swinney wants to consult the chief executive of Scottish Engineering he will find that Mr Hughes praised the Government strategy and warmly welcomed what is happening. We have the lowest unemployment rate in 25 years, a net gain in jobs and growing business confidence, but the SNP's only interest is to look for the downside, the black cloud and the bad news. From time to time, there will be problems in the Scottish economy, as in all other economies. Let us at least work together to build and to recognise what is good at the moment. I was at the unveiling of one of the recent job announcements and the chairman said that the company had come to Scotland because of \"excellent national and international communications, a high-quality workforce from an excellent educational system . . . world-class co-operation and support from investment agencies.\" We are doing well and it would be gracious if that was occasionally recognised. I say that to John Swinney with some regret, because in some ways he is rather better than the ruck behind him. However, even he has the tendency to be an ambulance-chaser when it comes to the economy. That is in the nature of Oppositions, but at least let us stand back and get some perspective. We attract industry because we welcome industry and I believe that we must continue to do so. It is important that we work together to deliver programmes that matter to Scotland, which is what this debate is about. We should deliver on our promises as politicians—that, too, will mean a great deal to Scotland. The programme for government underlines our commitment to delivering those promises. It is specific, including timed pledges, which will allow the people of Scotland to judge our progress and, if necessary, to call us to account. The Scottish Parliament was established by political parties working together with the people of Scotland. No one wants to blur the differences of political principle, but those differences do not justify an approach that is universally negative. Today's politics in Scotland should not be dominated by the 19th-century maxim that Oppositions oppose everything and propose nothing.The Government's programme contains ambitions that are shared by many members; there should be scope for working together, across the party divide, to deliver them. If that were to happen, it would do much to justify the votes so generously and determinedly cast in the referendum that created the Parliament. Promises made should be promises kept—that is the principle that underlines the programme. We want to work together to build a skilled, healthy and caring Scotland. I moveThat the Parliament endorses the contents of Making It Work Together: A Programme for Government.", "EditedTextHTML": "If Mr Swinney wants to consult the chief executive of Scottish Engineering he will find that Mr Hughes praised the Government strategy and warmly welcomed what is happening.

We have the lowest unemployment rate in 25 years, a net gain in jobs and growing business confidence, but the SNP's only interest is to look for the downside, the black cloud and the bad news. From time to time, there will be problems in the Scottish economy, as in all other economies. Let us at least work together to build and to recognise what is good at the moment.

I was at the unveiling of one of the recent job announcements and the chairman said that the company had come to Scotland because of

\"excellent national and international communications, a high-quality workforce from an excellent educational system . . . world-class co-operation and support from investment agencies.\"

We are doing well and it would be gracious if that was occasionally recognised. I say that to John Swinney with some regret, because in some ways he is rather better than the ruck behind him. However, even he has the tendency to be an ambulance-chaser when it comes to the economy. That is in the nature of Oppositions, but at least let us stand back and get some perspective.

We attract industry because we welcome industry and I believe that we must continue to do so. It is important that we work together to deliver programmes that matter to Scotland, which is what this debate is about.

We should deliver on our promises as politicians—that, too, will mean a great deal to Scotland. The programme for government underlines our commitment to delivering those promises. It is specific, including timed pledges, which will allow the people of Scotland to judge our progress and, if necessary, to call us to account.

The Scottish Parliament was established by political parties working together with the people of Scotland. No one wants to blur the differences of political principle, but those differences do not justify an approach that is universally negative. Today's politics in Scotland should not be dominated by the 19th-century maxim that Oppositions oppose everything and propose

nothing.

The Government's programme contains ambitions that are shared by many members; there should be scope for working together, across the party divide, to deliver them. If that were to happen, it would do much to justify the votes so generously and determinedly cast in the referendum that created the Parliament. Promises made should be promises kept—that is the principle that underlines the programme. We want to work together to build a skilled, healthy and caring Scotland.

I move

That the Parliament endorses the contents of Making It Work Together: A Programme for Government.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706932", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 41.0, "ContributionID": 706932, "EditedText": "Before I call the next speaker, I remind Parliament that it would help the occupants of the chair if members who want to speak this morning could indicate that by pressing their microphone buttons. I call Mr Alex Salmond to move his amendment.", "EditedTextHTML": "Before I call the next speaker, I remind Parliament that it would help the occupants of the chair if members who want to speak this morning could indicate that by pressing their microphone buttons.

I call Mr Alex Salmond to move his amendment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C706934", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Rural Affairs (Ross Finnie): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 46.0, "ContributionID": 706934, "EditedText": "Am I to take that as a compliment?", "EditedTextHTML": "

Am I to take that as a compliment?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C706940", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 58.0, "ContributionID": 706940, "EditedText": "On the issue of modernity, does not Mr Salmond agree with me that the proposals for modern apprenticeships, and even for skillseekers, go back not just to 1998 or 1997, but to the glory days of Tory Government?", "EditedTextHTML": "On the issue of modernity, does not Mr Salmond agree with me that the proposals for modern apprenticeships, and even for skillseekers, go back not just to 1998 or 1997, but to the glory days of Tory Government?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C706942", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 62.0, "ContributionID": 706942, "EditedText": "He had a misguided youth.", "EditedTextHTML": "He had a misguided youth.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C706949", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Communities (Ms Wendy Alexander): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 76.0, "ContributionID": 706949, "EditedText": "Will Mr Salmond give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr Salmond give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C706951", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 80.0, "ContributionID": 706951, "EditedText": "Does the minister—", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the minister—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C706955", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 88.0, "ContributionID": 706955, "EditedText": "I was only responding to the fine example that the First Minister set me. As for being called a minister, someone has obviously been reading the Executive's website. I will close by raising a restricted number of points. I want a Parliament that, instead of worrying about the press coverage, starts to introduce novel measures such as scrapping tuition fees—which we hope for—and the ridiculous beef-on-the-bone ban. I want a Parliament that makes real changes in the private finance initiative and in the privatisation of public services. I want a Parliament that articulates cases of justice and injustice internationally and, for example, gives Linda Fabiani a chance to speak about her findings as a monitor in East Timor over the past two weeks. I want a Parliament that articulates the case for a Scottish economy policy, not just hand-me-down policies from Westminster, and that realises that it should back fair taxation against unfair taxation and front-door taxation against the backstairs taxation of tuition fees and road tolls.A survey from the University of Aberdeen indicates that, across the north-east of Scotland, 10 per cent of pupils from schools surveyed are showing a disinclination to go to university because they are frightened of debt levels and tuition fees. Far from extending the ladder of opportunity in Scotland, the ministers who benefited from free access to education are pulling up that ladder behind them. If the Parliament were to articulate such changes, it would not have to worry about negative press headlines and would show the people of Scotland a vision transcending their experience. I move, as an amendment to motion S1M-127 in the name of Donald Dewar, to leave out all from \"endorses\" to end and insert \"condemns the use of valuable Parliamentary time and public resources for yet another public relations re-launch of the floundering coalition, calls upon the Scottish Executive to bring forward a programme of substance rather than spin, and instructs the Scottish Executive to take steps to access and use all of Scotland's resources to tackle poverty, lack of opportunity and unemployment, and to raise the ambitions of all of Scotland's peoples.\"", "EditedTextHTML": "I was only responding to the fine example that the First Minister set me. As for being called a minister, someone has obviously been reading the Executive's website.

I will close by raising a restricted number of points. I want a Parliament that, instead of worrying about the press coverage, starts to introduce novel measures such as scrapping tuition fees—which we hope for—and the ridiculous beef-on-the-bone ban. I want a Parliament that makes real changes in the private finance initiative and in the privatisation of public services. I want a Parliament that articulates cases of justice and injustice internationally and, for example, gives Linda Fabiani a chance to speak about her findings as a monitor in East Timor over the past two weeks. I want a Parliament that articulates the case for a Scottish economy policy, not just hand-me-down policies from Westminster, and that realises that it should back fair taxation against unfair taxation and front-door taxation against the backstairs taxation of tuition fees and

road tolls.

A survey from the University of Aberdeen indicates that, across the north-east of Scotland, 10 per cent of pupils from schools surveyed are showing a disinclination to go to university because they are frightened of debt levels and tuition fees. Far from extending the ladder of opportunity in Scotland, the ministers who benefited from free access to education are pulling up that ladder behind them. If the Parliament were to articulate such changes, it would not have to worry about negative press headlines and would show the people of Scotland a vision transcending their experience.

I move, as an amendment to motion S1M-127 in the name of Donald Dewar, to leave out all from \"endorses\" to end and insert

\"condemns the use of valuable Parliamentary time and public resources for yet another public relations re-launch of the floundering coalition, calls upon the Scottish Executive to bring forward a programme of substance rather than spin, and instructs the Scottish Executive to take steps to access and use all of Scotland's resources to tackle poverty, lack of opportunity and unemployment, and to raise the ambitions of all of Scotland's peoples.\"

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C706959", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 97.0, "ContributionID": 706959, "EditedText": "I asked Alex Salmond whether he would give me a precedent for the timetable, legislation dates and administrative actions in the document. He said that he would and then did not. Can David McLetchie?", "EditedTextHTML": "I asked Alex Salmond whether he would give me a precedent for the timetable, legislation dates and administrative actions in the document. He said that he would

and then did not. Can David McLetchie?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C706960", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 99.0, "ContributionID": 706960, "EditedText": "Ministers regularly give target dates for completion when they announce programmes. What they do not do is put a mishmash together in a single document at the taxpayers' expense and pretend that it is something new. Every policy statement that I have ever heard from the First Minister has had a target date and time attached. We have political manifestos produced at our own expense for that purpose and we do not have to do the same at the expense of the taxpayer. Even if individual ministers fail to hit the target dates that have been assigned to them, there is no sanction. Axes will not fall and jobs are not on the line, so what is the point of all of this? We have an expensive document that has been produced at the taxpayer's expense. I hope that the Minister for Finance, who makes a virtue of prudence, will tell the Parliament the total production costs and how he hopes to recoup all those costs at £4.95 a copy. In his part of the paper, the Minister for Finance states that he now wants to spend even more of our money on \"customer focused policy development and service delivery.\" That sounds suspiciously as if the Minister for Finance has a new role as the minister for focus groups. We all know that Labour politicians cannot leave home without consulting a focus group, but it seems as if we will have to fund that development—and key weapon—in Labour party policy on Executive administration here in Scotland. It is rather ironic that members of the Liberal Democrat party who have been highly critical of the use of focus groups by the Labour Government at Westminster now seem to have signed up for that strategy in Scotland. One of the other dubious practices with which the document is littered is the setting up of reviews or the adoption of so-called strategies as a means of avoiding hard decisions. Being in government means having to take difficult decisions and not kicking them into the long grass or hiding behind some meaningless waffle. Judging by the programme of government, which is littered with references to new strategies for this and new strategies for that—I counted them and there are 17 in all—I believe that the Executive is firmly set on following the example set by Mr Blair and his Westminster Government. In any event, why should we believe all the PR hype about what the Executive will do when over the past two years so many promises have been broken? Labour introduced tuition fees for students, despite a specific pledge not to do so by Mr Blair before the election. Labour promised to shorten waiting lists in hospitals, but we now know that people have to wait even longer to go to hospital and to obtain an appointment to see a consultant. Labour promised to be tough on crime, but there are now fewer police officers in Scotland than there were in 1997 and crime has risen across the board in all categories for the first time in seven years.", "EditedTextHTML": "Ministers regularly give target dates for completion when they announce programmes. What they do not do is put a mishmash together in a single document at the taxpayers' expense and pretend that it is something new. Every policy statement that I have ever heard from the First Minister has had a target date and time attached. We have political manifestos produced at our own expense for that purpose and we do not have to do the same at the expense of the taxpayer.

Even if individual ministers fail to hit the target dates that have been assigned to them, there is no sanction. Axes will not fall and jobs are not on the line, so what is the point of all of this? We have an expensive document that has been produced at the taxpayer's expense. I hope that the Minister for Finance, who makes a virtue of prudence, will tell the Parliament the total production costs and how he hopes to recoup all those costs at £4.95 a copy.

In his part of the paper, the Minister for Finance states that he now wants to spend even more of our money on

\"customer focused policy development and service delivery.\"

That sounds suspiciously as if the Minister for Finance has a new role as the minister for focus groups. We all know that Labour politicians cannot leave home without consulting a focus group, but it seems as if we will have to fund that development—and key weapon—in Labour party policy on Executive administration here in Scotland. It is rather ironic that members of the Liberal Democrat party who have been highly critical of the use of focus groups by the Labour Government at Westminster now seem to have signed up for that strategy in Scotland.

One of the other dubious practices with which the document is littered is the setting up of reviews or the adoption of so-called strategies as a means of avoiding hard decisions. Being in government means having to take difficult decisions and not kicking them into the long grass or hiding behind some meaningless waffle. Judging by the programme of government, which is littered with references to new strategies for this and new strategies for that—I counted them and there are 17 in all—I believe that the Executive is firmly set on following the example set by Mr Blair and his Westminster Government.

In any event, why should we believe all the PR hype about what the Executive will do when over the past two years so many promises have been broken? Labour introduced tuition fees for students, despite a specific pledge not to do so by Mr Blair before the election. Labour promised to shorten waiting lists in hospitals, but we now know that people have to wait even longer to go to hospital and to obtain an appointment to see a consultant. Labour promised to be tough on crime, but there are now fewer police officers in Scotland than there were in 1997 and crime has risen across the board in all categories for the first time in seven years.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C706967", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 113.0, "ContributionID": 706967, "EditedText": "I ask Mr McLetchie to bring his remarks towards a close.", "EditedTextHTML": "I ask Mr McLetchie to bring his remarks towards a close.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C706968", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 115.0, "ContributionID": 706968, "EditedText": "And answer the question.", "EditedTextHTML": "And answer the question.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C706969", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 117.0, "ContributionID": 706969, "EditedText": "Certainly. It is highly appropriate that, in the discussion of rural affairs, the question is about a great coup. My point is about the perception of people who live in rural Scotland of the priorities of this Parliament and its members, if members wish to prioritise this issue above all others. We will be interested to see the prioritisation of the bills that are lodged by members and the priorities that the Parliament attaches to them. I am simply flagging up the issue as of key concern to anyone who lives in rural Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "Certainly. It is highly appropriate that, in the discussion of rural affairs, the question is about a great coup.

My point is about the perception of people who live in rural Scotland of the priorities of this Parliament and its members, if members wish to prioritise this issue above all others. We will be interested to see the prioritisation of the bills that are lodged by members and the priorities that the Parliament attaches to them. I am simply flagging up the issue as of key concern to anyone who lives in rural Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C706979", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 137.0, "ContributionID": 706979, "EditedText": "I will endeavour to do so, if I am not subject to such barracking. When a major public health problem arose with BSE, our Government did not hesitate to devote more than £1 billion of funds to assist in alleviating the crisis and its impact on the farmers. Our willingness to dip into the reserves for that money, and to try to cushion the blow, contrasts with the pathetic, struggling efforts of the Administration— in the circus of the past week or so—to cope with the problems of the sheep farmers in particular.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will endeavour to do so, if I am not subject to such barracking.

When a major public health problem arose with BSE, our Government did not hesitate to devote more than £1 billion of funds to assist in alleviating the crisis and its impact on the farmers. Our willingness to dip into the reserves for that money, and to try to cushion the blow, contrasts with the pathetic, struggling efforts of the Administration— in the circus of the past week or so—to cope with the problems of the sheep farmers in particular.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1850E185P354C706980", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Radcliffe, Nora", "ID": 1850, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Gordon" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nora Radcliffe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nora Radcliffe (Gordon) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 139.0, "ContributionID": 706980, "EditedText": "Will Mr McLetchie give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr McLetchie give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C706985", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 150.0, "ContributionID": 706985, "EditedText": "Mr Lyon began by saying that he was speaking on behalf of the Scottish Liberal Democrats. Is there any distinction between his position and the one that the Deputy First Minister will adopt when he winds up the debate? When Mr Wallace winds up, will he do so for the Scottish Liberal Democrats or for the Executive? Why did Mr Lyon begin by making that distinction?", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Lyon began by saying that he was speaking on behalf of the Scottish Liberal Democrats. Is there any distinction between his position and the one that the Deputy First Minister will adopt when he winds up the debate? When Mr Wallace winds up, will he do so for the Scottish Liberal Democrats or for the Executive? Why did Mr Lyon begin by making that distinction?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C706988", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 156.0, "ContributionID": 706988, "EditedText": "If Mr Hamilton understood what was announced yesterday, he would know that Mr Finnie reached an agreement—with the UK Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food—that the Scottish Executive would draw up a plan to dispose of unwanted cull sheep; the Scottish Executive will take that plan to Europe for approval. Mr Brown said that under European rules, the cull scheme cannot include direct compensation for farmers. Education is a key priority for the Scottish Liberal Democrats. The programme contains a commitment to nursery provision for all three and four-year-olds by 2002 and a commitment to drive up literacy and numeracy standards. Those are Liberal Democrat priorities. On new measures announced, we already have the £29 million extra to tackle student hardship and the £50 million to help education—for new teachers, books and equipment—as part of the partnership agreement. A rural affairs department has already been created; we pushed for that. An enterprise and lifelong learning department and a health department, which also covers community care, have already been created. Those are all policies that we Scottish Liberal Democrats brought to the \"Partnership for Scotland\" agreement; they have already been delivered.", "EditedTextHTML": "If Mr Hamilton understood what was announced yesterday, he would know that Mr Finnie reached an agreement—with the UK Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food—that the Scottish Executive would draw up a plan to dispose of unwanted cull sheep; the Scottish Executive will take that plan to Europe for approval. Mr Brown said that under European rules, the cull scheme cannot include direct compensation for farmers.

Education is a key priority for the Scottish Liberal Democrats. The programme contains a commitment to nursery provision for all three and four-year-olds by 2002 and a commitment to drive up literacy and numeracy standards. Those are Liberal Democrat priorities.

On new measures announced, we already have the £29 million extra to tackle student hardship and the £50 million to help education—for new teachers, books and equipment—as part of the partnership agreement.

A rural affairs department has already been created; we pushed for that. An enterprise and lifelong learning department and a health department, which also covers community care, have already been created. Those are all policies that we Scottish Liberal Democrats brought to the \"Partnership for Scotland\" agreement; they have already been delivered.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C706989", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 158.0, "ContributionID": 706989, "EditedText": "The list that Mr Lyon articulated comprises a series of policies that create bureaucracies, departments and ministries. Nothing is being delivered, but the number of civil servants and politicians is increasing. That has been the hallmark of the Executive from day one.", "EditedTextHTML": "The list that Mr Lyon articulated comprises a series of policies that create bureaucracies, departments and ministries. Nothing is being delivered, but the number of civil servants and politicians is increasing. That has been the hallmark of the Executive from day one.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C706993", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 166.0, "ContributionID": 706993, "EditedText": "Answer the question.", "EditedTextHTML": "Answer the question.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C706994", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 168.0, "ContributionID": 706994, "EditedText": "He cannot.", "EditedTextHTML": "He cannot.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2090E83P266C706997", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAllion, Mr John", "ID": 2090, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dundee East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John McAllion", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr John McAllion (Dundee East) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 175.0, "ContributionID": 706997, "EditedText": "My microphone does not seem to be working. Can members hear me?", "EditedTextHTML": "My microphone does not seem to be working. Can members hear me?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2090E83P266C706999", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAllion, Mr John", "ID": 2090, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dundee East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John McAllion", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McAllion: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 179.0, "ContributionID": 706999, "EditedText": "I am a shy and retiring creature, so I must concede that I am not sure that I will be able to project my voice, but I will try to ensure that members can hear me.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am a shy and retiring creature, so I must concede that I am not sure that I will be able to project my voice, but I will try to ensure that members can hear me.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2090E83P266C707004", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAllion, Mr John", "ID": 2090, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dundee East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John McAllion", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McAllion: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 189.0, "ContributionID": 707004, "EditedText": "As I was saying, I have found some parts of this debate very interesting indeed, as Steve Davis might have said. The First Minister's insight into the new discipline that is operating within the Scottish National party was fascinating. It is nice to know that I am in more danger of being expelled from the SNP than from the SLP. That will at least improve my standing in the Scottish Labour party. This morning's debate is about the programme for government, which was launched—or relaunched, according to taste—in Cumbernauld last week. As we know, Cumbernauld is not a million miles away from Hamilton, but I am sure that that is purely coincidental and that the choice of location for the launch was because Cumbernauld really is the First Minister's favourite spot in Scotland. We must be clear, however, that the debate about the programme for government is not a debate about a manifesto for the Hamilton by- election. In particular, this debate is not a substitute hustings for that by-election. The SNP and Tory attacks this morning have been interesting. In the main, they have been focused on the Liberals, rather than on the Labour element of the coalition. That is, in my view, an attempt to squeeze the vote in Hamilton and to highlight the role of the Liberals there. This debate should be about the core Executive programme that this Parliament has to deal with over the next four years. The focus of the debate should be on the powers of this Parliament and about what we can do with the Executive programme to make it relevant to the people of Scotland and to change their lives. Party politics should be put to one side, if possible; at least for a brief moment. Mr Salmond's speech was, as always, very carefully and cleverly crafted. I particularly enjoyed the joke about \"Groundhog Day\". I, too, have seen the film. It is nice to know that Mr Salmond did not spend all his time reading Ceefax—although if I was a Hearts supporter I might be tempted to spend all my time doing that. Stripped of the jokes and the cleverness, however, Mr Salmond's speech was just a party political rant aimed at voters in Hamilton. That was a serious mistake. The SNP amendment is even worse than the debate. It complains about the use of Scottish Parliament time to debate the core programme of the Scottish Executive, which is accountable to the Parliament. What on earth should this Parliament be doing, if not holding the Executive to account? That is the purpose of the Parliament. The amendment is a joke and it should be treated as such by all members, including some of the sycophants who sit behind Mr Salmond and applaud his every little student reference. I do not include Mr Swinney in that—he has some integrity and at least sits beside Mr Salmond, not behind him.", "EditedTextHTML": "As I was saying, I have found some parts of this debate very interesting indeed, as Steve Davis might have said. The First Minister's insight into the new discipline that is operating within the Scottish National party was fascinating. It is nice to know that I am in more danger of being expelled from the SNP than from the SLP. That will at least improve my standing in the Scottish Labour party.

This morning's debate is about the programme for government, which was launched—or relaunched, according to taste—in Cumbernauld last week. As we know, Cumbernauld is not a million miles away from Hamilton, but I am sure that that is purely coincidental and that the choice of location for the launch was because Cumbernauld really is the First Minister's favourite spot in Scotland.

We must be clear, however, that the debate about the programme for government is not a debate about a manifesto for the Hamilton by- election. In particular, this debate is not a substitute hustings for that by-election. The SNP and Tory attacks this morning have been interesting. In the main, they have been focused on the Liberals, rather than on the Labour element of the coalition. That is, in my view, an attempt to squeeze the vote in Hamilton and to highlight the role of the Liberals there.

This debate should be about the core Executive programme that this Parliament has to deal with over the next four years. The focus of the debate should be on the powers of this Parliament and about what we can do with the Executive programme to make it relevant to the people of Scotland and to change their lives. Party politics should be put to one side, if possible; at least for a brief moment.

Mr Salmond's speech was, as always, very carefully and cleverly crafted. I particularly enjoyed the joke about \"Groundhog Day\". I, too, have seen the film. It is nice to know that Mr Salmond did not spend all his time reading Ceefax—although if I was a Hearts supporter I might be tempted to spend all my time doing that. Stripped of the jokes and the cleverness, however, Mr Salmond's speech was just a party political rant aimed at voters in Hamilton. That was a serious mistake.

The SNP amendment is even worse than the debate. It complains about the use of Scottish Parliament time to debate the core programme of the Scottish Executive, which is accountable to the Parliament. What on earth should this Parliament be doing, if not holding the Executive to account? That is the purpose of the Parliament. The amendment is a joke and it should be treated as such by all members, including some of the sycophants who sit behind Mr Salmond and applaud his every little student reference. I do not include Mr Swinney in that—he has some integrity and at least sits beside Mr Salmond, not behind him.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2090E83P266C707009", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAllion, Mr John", "ID": 2090, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dundee East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John McAllion", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McAllion: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 199.0, "ContributionID": 707009, "EditedText": "That will be dealt with by the committees when they scrutinise the bill. That process is what this Parliament is about—holding the Executive to account for the way it implements its programme. It would have been a disgrace if the Scottish Parliament had not included Scottish land reform in its first programme of work subsequent to reconvening after 300 years. In those circumstances, the Opposition could have legitimately attacked the Government, but when the Government does what Scotland has cried out for, the Opposition should accept that and congratulate the Government for so doing. I am a wholly urban phenomenon. I have only ever been to the countryside during the Glasgow fair holiday to visit my uncle's hut at Balfron. I do not know much about the countryside. It is this Parliament that should speak for the countryside, not a countryside alliance that goes under the banner of the Tory party. It is time that this Parliament showed that it speaks for all Scotland, not just part of it.Can anyone here truly say that taking on drug barons is not a priority of this Government—that it is just spin without substance? Can anyone say that the setting up of a Scottish drug enforcement agency that targets the suppliers and dealers in drugs—who profit from the destruction and death that they inflict on ordinary working-class kids around Scotland—is not a priority? Is not trying to tackle drugs in prison a priority? Is that just spin? It is estimated that four fifths of all crimes of dishonesty committed in Scotland are drug-related offences. We catch the offenders and put them into prisons. A few weeks ago I listened to a prison governor on the radio who praised the fact that for the first time Scotland has one drugs- free prison. We are taking drug addicts off the streets and putting them into prisons where they are getting more drugs. We are then putting them back on the streets, which causes more crime and results in more people being picked up and put in prison. Surely we should be tackling drugs in prison. Surely that should be a priority and surely the Government should be congratulated on doing that. We will probably also hear during this debate that there is no housing bill. I take an interest in Scottish housing and have done for a long time. I am delighted that, at this stage of this Parliament's life, there is no Scottish housing bill. The green paper consultation has just finished. No member of this Parliament can put their hand on their heart and say that they have read all the responses to the green paper. There is a committee of this Parliament that is responsible for housing, but which has not had a meeting dealing with housing. We have not spoken to any of the people who are interested in housing in Scotland at the moment. We do not know what are the views of the people of Scotland. We do not even know who is for or who is against stock transfer. We need to take time. We need to find out what is the best possible legislation on housing and then to implement it. The Executive should be congratulated on that. The Executive should be held to account, but I remind all members that this is not Westminster. There is no luxury of Opposition in this Parliament because every member of it will, after four years, be held to account for how he or she has conducted himself or herself in those four years. We are all members of powerful committees. We all have responsibilities and powers. Above all, if we argue for something in the Parliament, we had better be able to justify it and say how it will be paid for. We cannot sit in the luxury of Opposition and call for everything under the sun to be done without explaining where the money will come from. I welcome the Executive programme. It is a good start for the Scottish Parliament but it is not the entire work of the Scottish Parliament. We in the chamber, with the Executive, will decide what this Parliament will achieve in the next four years. It will not be done by the Executive alone.", "EditedTextHTML": "That will be dealt with by the committees when they scrutinise the bill. That process is what this Parliament is about—holding the Executive to account for the way it implements its programme.

It would have been a disgrace if the Scottish Parliament had not included Scottish land reform in its first programme of work subsequent to reconvening after 300 years. In those circumstances, the Opposition could have legitimately attacked the Government, but when the Government does what Scotland has cried out for, the Opposition should accept that and congratulate the Government for so doing.

I am a wholly urban phenomenon. I have only ever been to the countryside during the Glasgow fair holiday to visit my uncle's hut at Balfron. I do not know much about the countryside. It is this Parliament that should speak for the countryside, not a countryside alliance that goes under the banner of the Tory party. It is time that this Parliament showed that it speaks for all Scotland,

not just part of it.

Can anyone here truly say that taking on drug barons is not a priority of this Government—that it is just spin without substance? Can anyone say that the setting up of a Scottish drug enforcement agency that targets the suppliers and dealers in drugs—who profit from the destruction and death that they inflict on ordinary working-class kids around Scotland—is not a priority?

Is not trying to tackle drugs in prison a priority? Is that just spin? It is estimated that four fifths of all crimes of dishonesty committed in Scotland are drug-related offences. We catch the offenders and put them into prisons. A few weeks ago I listened to a prison governor on the radio who praised the fact that for the first time Scotland has one drugs- free prison.

We are taking drug addicts off the streets and putting them into prisons where they are getting more drugs. We are then putting them back on the streets, which causes more crime and results in more people being picked up and put in prison. Surely we should be tackling drugs in prison. Surely that should be a priority and surely the Government should be congratulated on doing that.

We will probably also hear during this debate that there is no housing bill. I take an interest in Scottish housing and have done for a long time. I am delighted that, at this stage of this Parliament's life, there is no Scottish housing bill. The green paper consultation has just finished. No member of this Parliament can put their hand on their heart and say that they have read all the responses to the green paper.

There is a committee of this Parliament that is responsible for housing, but which has not had a meeting dealing with housing. We have not spoken to any of the people who are interested in housing in Scotland at the moment. We do not know what are the views of the people of Scotland. We do not even know who is for or who is against stock transfer.

We need to take time. We need to find out what is the best possible legislation on housing and then to implement it. The Executive should be congratulated on that.

The Executive should be held to account, but I remind all members that this is not Westminster. There is no luxury of Opposition in this Parliament because every member of it will, after four years, be held to account for how he or she has conducted himself or herself in those four years.

We are all members of powerful committees. We all have responsibilities and powers. Above all, if we argue for something in the Parliament, we had better be able to justify it and say how it will be paid for. We cannot sit in the luxury of Opposition and call for everything under the sun to be done without explaining where the money will come from.

I welcome the Executive programme. It is a good start for the Scottish Parliament but it is not the entire work of the Scottish Parliament. We in the chamber, with the Executive, will decide what this Parliament will achieve in the next four years. It will not be done by the Executive alone.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2112E192P495C707012", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacAskill, Kenny", "ID": 2112, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenny MacAskill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr MacAskill: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 206.0, "ContributionID": 707012, "EditedText": "We are calling now for what we called for before—abandonment of the fuel price escalator. It is causing and compounding problems. The price of a barrel of oil has doubled through tariffs. The Government is—as it did last year and the year before—adding 6 per cent to that. We in Scotland have seen no tangible benefit to our public transport infrastructure. The Government has taken our money and, over the years, has built the M25 and other major components of transport infrastructure south of the border. We have received very little and we await with interest the implementation of a strategic trunk road review. We will see what we receive in comparison with what the review suggests. We have asked some questions about the consultation document, \"Tackling Congestion\", and the minister has told us that it is up for discussion. Nothing is ruled out and nothing is ruled in. Where is the leadership? When we ask what reduction there will be in the number of road journeys as a result of tolling, we are told that the Government does not know. We are told that it will depend on the type, the manner and the location of the tolling. That is not enough. If the Government does not know whether road tolls on trunk roads will reduce congestion, what is the purpose of implementing them, if not to tax the Scottish motorist more? The Government says in its consultation document that it favours electronic marking and collection. Who will pay for the implementation? Who will pick up the tab? We are told that the Government does not know and that that is up for consideration. That is an abandonment of the Government's duties. Regarding the environment, we are told that recycling is to be targeted and that there will be a national park. What mention is there of genetically modified foods? Are not we, as a Parliament, meant to reflect and represent the needs, wishes and desires of the people of Scotland? Is the debate on GM foods not one in common currency among the general population of Scotland? Is that not worthy of a mention by the Minister for Transport and the Environment? Why is nothing said, with no plans or proposals? Is it perhaps because, as is the case in other areas, lobby groups down in Westminster have nobbled the real leadership of the Labour party? What about landfill tax? We are told that the Executive wants recycling. This is a specific point, and it is unfortunate that the minister is not in the chamber. We are told that there will be a new recycling strategy because landfill in Scotland is an abomination and a blight on many communities. What do we know? At present, we know that the Chancellor of the Exchequer gets around £40 million per annum from landfill tax. That will increase every year. Where does the money go? Apparently, we have hypothecation within the Labour Administration in London. The money the Chancellor of the Exchequer gets for his green tax goes to reduce the national insurance contributions of employers. I ask the Executive why we should not use that tax, brought in because of a blight on areas of Scotland, to assist with recycling and to create an environment fund. What is contained in the document is cauld kail het up. It is not a recipe for a new Scotland; it is a diet of porridge and gruel for the people of Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "We are calling now for what we called for before—abandonment of the fuel price escalator. It is causing and compounding problems. The price of a barrel of oil has doubled through tariffs. The Government is—as it did last year and the year before—adding 6 per cent to that.

We in Scotland have seen no tangible benefit to our public transport infrastructure. The Government has taken our money and, over the years, has built the M25 and other major components of transport infrastructure south of the border. We have received very little and we await with interest the implementation of a strategic trunk road review. We will see what we receive in comparison with what the review suggests.

We have asked some questions about the consultation document, \"Tackling Congestion\", and the minister has told us that it is up for discussion. Nothing is ruled out and nothing is ruled in. Where is the leadership?

When we ask what reduction there will be in the number of road journeys as a result of tolling, we are told that the Government does not know. We are told that it will depend on the type, the manner and the location of the tolling. That is not enough. If the Government does not know whether road tolls on trunk roads will reduce congestion, what is the purpose of implementing them, if not to tax the Scottish motorist more?

The Government says in its consultation document that it favours electronic marking and collection. Who will pay for the implementation? Who will pick up the tab? We are told that the Government does not know and that that is up for consideration. That is an abandonment of the Government's duties.

Regarding the environment, we are told that recycling is to be targeted and that there will be a national park. What mention is there of genetically modified foods? Are not we, as a Parliament, meant to reflect and represent the needs, wishes and desires of the people of Scotland? Is the debate on GM foods not one in common currency among the general population of Scotland? Is that not worthy of a mention by the Minister for Transport and the Environment? Why is nothing said, with no plans or proposals? Is it perhaps because, as is the case in other areas, lobby groups down in Westminster have nobbled the real leadership of the Labour party?

What about landfill tax? We are told that the Executive wants recycling. This is a specific point, and it is unfortunate that the minister is not in the chamber. We are told that there will be a new recycling strategy because landfill in Scotland is an abomination and a blight on many communities. What do we know? At present, we know that the Chancellor of the Exchequer gets around £40 million per annum from landfill tax. That will increase every year. Where does the money go?

Apparently, we have hypothecation within the Labour Administration in London. The money the Chancellor of the Exchequer gets for his green tax goes to reduce the national insurance contributions of employers. I ask the Executive why we should not use that tax, brought in because of a blight on areas of Scotland, to assist with recycling and to create an environment fund.

What is contained in the document is cauld kail het up. It is not a recipe for a new Scotland; it is a diet of porridge and gruel for the people of Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C707014", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 211.0, "ContributionID": 707014, "EditedText": "I agree that partnership and sustainability are important for the future. Can Dr Jackson tell me what partnership the Scottish Executive will enter into with Inverness College and the University of the Highlands and Islands to address the £4 million deficit the college faces, to continue its and the university's sustainability?", "EditedTextHTML": "I agree that partnership and sustainability are important for the future. Can Dr Jackson tell me what partnership the Scottish Executive will enter into with Inverness College and the University of the Highlands and Islands to address the £4 million deficit the college faces, to continue its and the university's sustainability?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1778E91P257C707032", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Eadie, Helen", "ID": 1778, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dunfermline East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Helen Eadie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Helen Eadie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 249.0, "ContributionID": 707032, "EditedText": "Mr Johnston mentioned the importance of the business economy and the relevance of transport. Will he comment on the fact that it was the Conservative Government that privatised the rail network and that in Scotland we have only 6 per cent of rail investment, although we have 12 per cent of the railway lines?", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Johnston mentioned the importance of the business economy and the relevance of transport. Will he comment on the fact that it was the Conservative Government that privatised the rail network and that in Scotland we have only 6 per cent of rail investment, although we have 12 per cent of the railway lines?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1873E89P171C707015", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jackson, Dr Sylvia", "ID": 1873, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Stirling" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sylvia Jackson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Jackson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 213.0, "ContributionID": 707015, "EditedText": "Mary Scanlon has raised a very specific issue and it should be directed to the appropriate area of the Executive for the fullest answer. I am sorry that I cannot answer that one. The Strath Fillan Trust provides a model for other rural communities, but it has faced significant problems in developing its vision—and it still has problems because different funding streams for different services had to come into operation. The trust has succeeded only because of the enormous enthusiasm and hard work of key members of that community, supported by a range of services, including Forth Valley Enterprise and Stirling Council. It is vital that we ease the path for such initiatives and provide the mechanisms for funding agencies to be brought together in a more co-ordinated way to support communities. A second important thread that runs through the document is the creation of a more holistic and joined-up approach to service delivery. I will mention two ways in which it emphasises that. The section on children brings together childcare and school issues. The section on health examines effective community care, which requires an integration of social work and health provision. Stirling Council is at the forefront of this approach, providing new structures to bring departments and agencies together, but there will be difficulties that we have to identify. They relate, for example, to the possibility of job change and raising awareness on the issues connected with that. In Stirling, the development of new structures in the council has all-party support, which is probably the most hopeful sign for the future. The programme for government presents real challenges. It calls for change—in some cases radical change. That will never be easy. Those are the real issues that we must address. They must not be ignored: they must be anticipated and met head on. Provision has to be made for negotiation. We know from the teachers' dispute that nothing is as important as on-going negotiation. Negotiation has to open up the possibility to modify plans before agreement is reached. True partnership involves seeing each side's point of view and finding a solution that moves the discussion forward. I urge members in all parts of the chamber to look to the future in that constructive way. Partnership is at the heart of the document and effective partnership presents us with a real challenge. Although it will not be easy, it is worth pursuing. I commend the document and suggest that we all move forward constructively in the interests of all the people of Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mary Scanlon has raised a very specific issue and it should be directed to the appropriate area of the Executive for the fullest answer. I am sorry that I cannot answer that one.

The Strath Fillan Trust provides a model for other rural communities, but it has faced significant problems in developing its vision—and it still has problems because different funding streams for different services had to come into operation. The trust has succeeded only because of the enormous enthusiasm and hard work of key members of that community, supported by a range of services, including Forth Valley Enterprise and Stirling Council. It is vital that we ease the path for such initiatives and provide the mechanisms for funding agencies to be brought together in a more co-ordinated way to support communities.

A second important thread that runs through the document is the creation of a more holistic and joined-up approach to service delivery. I will mention two ways in which it emphasises that. The section on children brings together childcare and school issues. The section on health examines effective community care, which requires an integration of social work and health provision.

Stirling Council is at the forefront of this approach, providing new structures to bring departments and agencies together, but there will be difficulties that we have to identify. They relate, for example, to the possibility of job change and raising awareness on the issues connected with that. In Stirling, the development of new structures in the council has all-party support, which is probably the most hopeful sign for the future.

The programme for government presents real challenges. It calls for change—in some cases radical change. That will never be easy. Those are the real issues that we must address. They must not be ignored: they must be anticipated and met head on.

Provision has to be made for negotiation. We know from the teachers' dispute that nothing is as important as on-going negotiation. Negotiation has to open up the possibility to modify plans before agreement is reached.

True partnership involves seeing each side's point of view and finding a solution that moves the discussion forward. I urge members in all parts of the chamber to look to the future in that constructive way. Partnership is at the heart of the document and effective partnership presents us with a real challenge. Although it will not be easy, it is worth pursuing. I commend the document and suggest that we all move forward constructively in the interests of all the people of Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2142E142P230C707019", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Watson, Mike", "ID": 2142, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Cathcart" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Watson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mike Watson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 222.0, "ContributionID": 707019, "EditedText": "Will Nicola Sturgeon give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Nicola Sturgeon give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2152E53P75C707027", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnston, Nick", "ID": 2152, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nick Johnston", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Johnston: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 239.0, "ContributionID": 707027, "EditedText": "The First Minister gives me the opportunity to say what we have always said—an escalator usually stops at the first floor; it does not continue upward through the roof. Business needs the infrastructure to grow. We have heard nothing today about improving the infrastructure of our transport network. Unhindered by taxes, road tolls and swingeing fuel prices, there must be a modern rail network, facilities to handle freight, an expansion to the docks and freedom to develop new facilities on the Forth and the Clyde, in Aberdeen and in Rosyth. The target of 10,000 apprentices will be met only if the employment prospects exist to begin with.", "EditedTextHTML": "The First Minister gives me the opportunity to say what we have always said—an escalator usually stops at the first floor; it does not continue upward through the roof.

Business needs the infrastructure to grow. We have heard nothing today about improving the infrastructure of our transport network. Unhindered by taxes, road tolls and swingeing fuel prices, there must be a modern rail network, facilities to handle freight, an expansion to the docks and freedom to develop new facilities on the Forth and the Clyde, in Aberdeen and in Rosyth. The target of 10,000 apprentices will be met only if the employment prospects exist to begin with.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1778E91P257C707030", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Eadie, Helen", "ID": 1778, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dunfermline East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Helen Eadie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Helen Eadie (Dunfermline East) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 245.0, "ContributionID": 707030, "EditedText": "Will Mr Johnston give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr Johnston give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2152E53P75C707033", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnston, Nick", "ID": 2152, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nick Johnston", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Johnston: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 251.0, "ContributionID": 707033, "EditedText": "Would Helen Eadie like a comment on the rail network in general or on investment?", "EditedTextHTML": "Would Helen Eadie like a comment on the rail network in general or on investment?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1778E91P257C707034", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Eadie, Helen", "ID": 1778, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dunfermline East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Helen Eadie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Helen Eadie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 253.0, "ContributionID": 707034, "EditedText": "On the fact that the Conservative Government privatised the rail network so that it is now not the Scottish Government but the network itself that is responsible for investment. Scotland now has only 6 per cent of the investment, although we have 12 per cent of the rail network.", "EditedTextHTML": "On the fact that the Conservative Government privatised the rail network so that it is now not the Scottish Government but the network itself that is responsible for investment. Scotland now has only 6 per cent of the investment, although we have 12 per cent of the rail network.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2152E53P75C707035", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnston, Nick", "ID": 2152, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nick Johnston", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Johnston: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 255.0, "ContributionID": 707035, "EditedText": "That is an indication that old Labour still lives. Mr Prescott will be upset to find that the issue of the rail network is being brought up yet again. To create apprenticeships we need to create a vibrant economy and small businesses. There would be a far better chance of that if we were not hobbled by fuel costs and petty regulations—the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee should look at the regulation of business. We will work with the Executive—but what arrogance its members have to say in this document that they are going to be in power for 10 years. The First Minister said that he welcomes change—please will he change his policies on business to allow it, and Scotland, to flourish.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is an indication that old Labour still lives. Mr Prescott will be upset to find that the issue of the rail network is being brought up yet again.

To create apprenticeships we need to create a vibrant economy and small businesses. There would be a far better chance of that if we were not hobbled by fuel costs and petty regulations—the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee should look at the regulation of business. We will work with the Executive—but what arrogance its members have to say in this document that they are going to be in power for 10 years. The First Minister said that he welcomes change—please will he change his policies on business to allow it, and Scotland, to flourish.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1762E216P508C707038", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Elder, Dorothy-Grace", "ID": 1762, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 264.0, "ContributionID": 707038, "EditedText": "It is no wonder that this document has been called a triumph of spin over substance. It tells us that crime is a bad thing and bad health is a bad thing, but absolutely nothing new. To compensate for that there is a lavish number of photographs of members of the Scottish Executive—so lavish that I confused it at first with the theatrical directory \"Spotlight\", because only it has more photographs. We all have our favourite—and so has the press. Mine is the one of Jim Wallace that has already been referred to. It is the subject of a funny caption contest and I plagiarise a journalist's suggestion that in the picture of two coppers and Mr Wallace the bubble says, \"No, officer, I am not Mr Ruddle, I am Mr Muddle.\" Seriously, even in Westminster documents stilltend to be rather more humble than this one is. Mr Dewar referred earlier to the \"guinea's stamp\" and he and I have in common a love of Burns. With the \"guinea's stamp\"—just how much did this cost? Another line from the same poem is \"their tinsel show, an a' that\".This document is the tinsel show of 1999. This is the sort of spin that brings the Parliament into disrepute, but it is not the Parliament as a whole that should be brought into disrepute. It is the Scottish Executive that is on a nauseating degree of high-speed spin. In Glasgow we see that behind that well-spun façade there is no real social inclusion and there is less open government than before. I am on the health committee, yet I was not told that there is a behind-the-scenes plan by the Minister for Health and Community Care that may lead to the withdrawing of paediatric cardiac services from the royal hospital for sick children at Yorkhill. The people of Glasgow will not tolerate that. This is a warning. The people of Glasgow have contributed lavishly to their hospital and they and the people of Lanarkshire are fed up with Edinburgh-centred thinking, which may now extend to danger to the health of their children.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is no wonder that this document has been called a triumph of spin over substance. It tells us that crime is a bad thing and bad health is a bad thing, but absolutely nothing new. To compensate for that there is a lavish number of photographs of members of the Scottish Executive—so lavish that I confused it at first with the theatrical directory \"Spotlight\", because only it has more photographs. We all have our favourite—and so has the press. Mine is the one of Jim Wallace that has already been referred to. It is the subject of a funny caption contest and I plagiarise a journalist's suggestion that in the picture of two coppers and Mr Wallace the bubble says, \"No, officer, I am not Mr Ruddle, I am Mr Muddle.\"

Seriously, even in Westminster documents still

tend to be rather more humble than this one is. Mr Dewar referred earlier to the \"guinea's stamp\" and he and I have in common a love of Burns. With the \"guinea's stamp\"—just how much did this cost? Another line from the same poem is

\"their tinsel show, an a' that\".

This document is the tinsel show of 1999. This is the sort of spin that brings the Parliament into disrepute, but it is not the Parliament as a whole that should be brought into disrepute. It is the Scottish Executive that is on a nauseating degree of high-speed spin.

In Glasgow we see that behind that well-spun façade there is no real social inclusion and there is less open government than before. I am on the health committee, yet I was not told that there is a behind-the-scenes plan by the Minister for Health and Community Care that may lead to the withdrawing of paediatric cardiac services from the royal hospital for sick children at Yorkhill. The people of Glasgow will not tolerate that. This is a warning. The people of Glasgow have contributed lavishly to their hospital and they and the people of Lanarkshire are fed up with Edinburgh-centred thinking, which may now extend to danger to the health of their children.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1762E216P508C707040", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Elder, Dorothy-Grace", "ID": 1762, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 268.0, "ContributionID": 707040, "EditedText": "At the end of my speech—I only have a few minutes to go. There is no social inclusion for individuals or groups that are not a pushover for the Executive's plans. I am regularly called out to people in the east end of Glasgow who have been promised consultation, but have received none. Mr Dewar referred to tenants being at the heart of the consultation over housing stock transfer, but they are not. The council admits that the tenants have been computer-picked from a list of people who had not been, and I quote, \"previously vocal\". All 50 of Glasgow's tenants associations oppose the housing stock transfer. Homelessness and child poverty are increasing in Glasgow under this Government. Regularly, excellent social work projects are closed down without any proper consultation. An example is Easterhill day centre in Baillieston. A few weeks ago I was at that centre and witnessed a pitiful scene. The parents, some of whom were 80 years old, of severely disabled adults were being told—", "EditedTextHTML": "At the end of my speech—I only have a few minutes to go.

There is no social inclusion for individuals or groups that are not a pushover for the Executive's plans. I am regularly called out to people in the east end of Glasgow who have been promised consultation, but have received none. Mr Dewar referred to tenants being at the heart of the consultation over housing stock transfer, but they are not. The council admits that the tenants have been computer-picked from a list of people who had not been, and I quote, \"previously vocal\". All 50 of Glasgow's tenants associations oppose the housing stock transfer. Homelessness and child poverty are increasing in Glasgow under this Government.

Regularly, excellent social work projects are closed down without any proper consultation. An example is Easterhill day centre in Baillieston. A few weeks ago I was at that centre and witnessed a pitiful scene. The parents, some of whom were 80 years old, of severely disabled adults were being told—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1762E216P508C707046", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Elder, Dorothy-Grace", "ID": 1762, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 280.0, "ContributionID": 707046, "EditedText": "Later. You had your chance. Easterhouse is another example of social non- inclusion. A couple of weeks ago I attended a conference there involving Greater Easterhouse Council for Voluntary Organisations, which represents almost 300 organisations. It is an excellent body, with excellent people, and nobody wanted it to be absorbed into the new social inclusion partnership. One week before the consultation period ended on 30 August, it was told that it was to be absorbed into the SIP. The decision was made before the consultation was over. It is a shadow show. It is after coming through sickening experiences like that that many in this chamber feel angry when we see this piece of flim-flam. However, I have one useful purpose for it. I have a cat. This document is the most expensive piece of kitty litter in Scotland, but it will be useful in that context. I support the amendment.", "EditedTextHTML": "Later. You had your chance.

Easterhouse is another example of social non- inclusion. A couple of weeks ago I attended a conference there involving Greater Easterhouse Council for Voluntary Organisations, which represents almost 300 organisations. It is an excellent body, with excellent people, and nobody wanted it to be absorbed into the new social inclusion partnership. One week before the consultation period ended on 30 August, it was told that it was to be absorbed into the SIP. The decision was made before the consultation was over. It is a shadow show.

It is after coming through sickening experiences like that that many in this chamber feel angry when we see this piece of flim-flam. However, I have one useful purpose for it. I have a cat. This document is the most expensive piece of kitty litter in Scotland, but it will be useful in that context.

I support the amendment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1986E53P206C707065", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeil, Duncan", "ID": 1986, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Greenock and Inverclyde" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan McNeil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McNeil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 324.0, "ContributionID": 707065, "EditedText": "Will Alex Neil also accept that we now have the lowest unemployment figures in Scotland for many years?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Alex Neil also accept that we now have the lowest unemployment figures in Scotland for many years?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1986E53P206C707063", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeil, Duncan", "ID": 1986, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Greenock and Inverclyde" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan McNeil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McNeil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 320.0, "ContributionID": 707063, "EditedText": "Does the member accept that the best way in which to tackle poverty is to provide people with jobs?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the member accept that the best way in which to tackle poverty is to provide people with jobs?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1769E16P282C707059", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Smith, Elaine", "ID": 1769, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Coatbridge and Chryston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Smith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Elaine Smith (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 311.0, "ContributionID": 707059, "EditedText": "I welcome the opportunity to participate in this debate on an excellent programme for the good governance of Scotland and, more important, an agenda designed to ensure the delivery of this Parliament's priorities and promises to the people of Scotland. The concept of identifying year by year a timetable for delivering the priorities will undoubtedly revolutionise the way in which Scotland's people hold the members of this Parliament accountable. However, I would like to refer members to one promise that is made in this programme—the promise to introduce next year a carers strategy to assist unpaid carers. The issue is pertinent to a great number of my constituents in Coatbridge and Chryston and to thousands of carers throughout Scotland. According to current statistics, at least one eighth of the members in this chamber should have already experienced the demands and difficulties of caring at home for a friend or relative. I welcome the initiatives that were previously announced by the Executive in pursuit of a needs- led caring at home agenda. I commend it also on its recognition of the unpaid work carried out by many of Scotland's citizens. That work, undertaken by almost 500,000 people in Scotland, is estimated to save the Scottish taxpayer some £3.4 billion a year. Appreciation of that is long overdue. Additional funds have already been allocated to local authorities throughout Scotland for the provision of respite care, and the resourcing of much-needed assistance for carers is symbolic of the commitment shown by the Government and is richly deserved by Scotland's carers. I share the Executive's hope and vision for modern community care provision and look forward to the adoption of that ideal by local authorities and other care providers. While congratulating the Executive on its current and future pledges to carers, I seek assurances that the needs of carers and the cared for will be central to the development of our agenda and our legislative proposals. I hope very much that monitoring procedures will be put in place quickly to guarantee that our plans for community care are effectively delivered at local level, for the benefit of people in greatest need. I see that Dorothy has left, but I take on board to some extent her comments about consultation. I trust that our vision of a needs-led approach will be successful and will ensure proper consultation and resource allocation by local service providers. I look forward to the programme for government being implemented and I support the motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the opportunity to participate in this debate on an excellent programme for the good governance of Scotland and, more important, an agenda designed to ensure the delivery of this Parliament's priorities and promises to the people of Scotland.

The concept of identifying year by year a timetable for delivering the priorities will undoubtedly revolutionise the way in which Scotland's people hold the members of this Parliament accountable. However, I would like to refer members to one promise that is made in this programme—the promise to introduce next year a carers strategy to assist unpaid carers.

The issue is pertinent to a great number of my constituents in Coatbridge and Chryston and to thousands of carers throughout Scotland. According to current statistics, at least one eighth of the members in this chamber should have already experienced the demands and difficulties of caring at home for a friend or relative.

I welcome the initiatives that were previously announced by the Executive in pursuit of a needs- led caring at home agenda. I commend it also on its recognition of the unpaid work carried out by many of Scotland's citizens. That work, undertaken by almost 500,000 people in Scotland, is estimated to save the Scottish taxpayer some £3.4 billion a year. Appreciation of that is long overdue.

Additional funds have already been allocated to local authorities throughout Scotland for the provision of respite care, and the resourcing of much-needed assistance for carers is symbolic of the commitment shown by the Government and is richly deserved by Scotland's carers. I share the Executive's hope and vision for modern community care provision and look forward to the adoption of that ideal by local authorities and other care providers.

While congratulating the Executive on its current and future pledges to carers, I seek assurances that the needs of carers and the cared for will be central to the development of our agenda and our legislative proposals. I hope very much that monitoring procedures will be put in place quickly to guarantee that our plans for community care are effectively delivered at local level, for the benefit of people in greatest need.

I see that Dorothy has left, but I take on board to some extent her comments about consultation. I trust that our vision of a needs-led approach will be successful and will ensure proper consultation and resource allocation by local service providers.

I look forward to the programme for government being implemented and I support the motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1986E53P206C707076", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26765, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26766, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 344.0, "QuestionHeading": "Citizens Justice", "QuestionHeadingID": 26767, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 345.0, "DisplayOrder": 345.0, "ID": 26767, "ParentID": 26766 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeil, Duncan", "ID": 1986, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Greenock and Inverclyde" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan McNeil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McNeil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 348.0, "ContributionID": 707076, "EditedText": "I welcome the minister's response. As I have already referred in the chamber to the serious problems of crime, ill health and poverty in the Greenock and Inverclyde district, I also welcome the fact that the first citizens jury in Greenock will take place at the end of October. Ordinary people will be allowed to discuss key concerns in the community. Given that there are 30 citizens juries in the United Kingdom and six in Scotland, does the minister agree that they are a well-tried and trusted method of canvassing the views of communities? Can she assure me that the Scottish Executive will take seriously the views of those citizens juries? What other ideas does she have for further consultation with communities?", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the minister's response. As I have already referred in the chamber to the serious problems of crime, ill health and poverty in the Greenock and Inverclyde district, I also welcome the fact that the first citizens jury in Greenock will take place at the end of October. Ordinary people will be allowed to discuss key concerns in the community. Given that there are 30 citizens juries in the United Kingdom and six in Scotland, does the minister agree that they are a well-tried and trusted method of canvassing the views of communities? Can she assure me that the Scottish Executive will take seriously the views of those citizens juries? What other ideas does she have for further consultation with communities?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "C707073", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26764, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 330.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 330.0, "ID": 26764, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 340.0, "ContributionID": 707073, "EditedText": "On resuming—", "EditedTextHTML": "On resuming—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1769E16P282C707078", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26765, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26766, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 344.0, "QuestionHeading": "Child Care", "QuestionHeadingID": 26768, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 352.0, "DisplayOrder": 352.0, "ID": 26768, "ParentID": 26766 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Smith, Elaine", "ID": 1769, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Coatbridge and Chryston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Smith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "2. Elaine Smith (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 353.0, "ContributionID": 707078, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will make a statement on the progress being made towards a national child care strategy. (S1O-250) The Deputy Minister for Children and Education (Peter Peacock): The document \"Making it work together\" sets out our pledges for developing child care strategy in Scotland, pledges that are backed by extra resources of some £49 million over the next three years.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will make a statement on the progress being made towards a national child care strategy. (S1O-250) The Deputy Minister for Children and Education (Peter Peacock): The document \"Making it work together\" sets out our pledges for developing child care strategy in Scotland, pledges that are backed by extra resources of some £49 million over the next three years.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C707082", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26765, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26766, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 344.0, "QuestionHeading": "Child Care", "QuestionHeadingID": 26768, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 352.0, "DisplayOrder": 352.0, "ID": 26768, "ParentID": 26766 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 361.0, "ContributionID": 707082, "EditedText": "But you must ask a question at the beginning.", "EditedTextHTML": "But you must ask a question at the beginning.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1840E82P158C707086", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26765, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26766, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 344.0, "QuestionHeading": "Victims of Crime", "QuestionHeadingID": 26769, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 367.0, "DisplayOrder": 367.0, "ID": 26769, "ParentID": 26766 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macmillan, Maureen", "ID": 1840, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Maureen Macmillan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Maureen Macmillan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 370.0, "ContributionID": 707086, "EditedText": "Will the minister elaborate on that answer, and say whether information given to victims will include reasons for decision taken by the Crown, for example, to drop or to reduce charges?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister elaborate on that answer, and say whether information given to victims will include reasons for decision taken by the Crown, for example, to drop or to reduce charges?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1782E69P279C707089", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26765, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26766, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 344.0, "QuestionHeading": "Tobacco", "QuestionHeadingID": 26770, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 374.0, "DisplayOrder": 374.0, "ID": 26770, "ParentID": 26766 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Oldfather, Irene", "ID": 1782, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Cunninghame South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Irene Oldfather", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Oldfather: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 377.0, "ContributionID": 707089, "EditedText": "I am particularly pleased to hear the minister mention the issue of enforcement. Will she join me in condemning the unscrupulous practices of some shopkeepers who put private profit before children's health by selling tobacco products to children? Furthermore, will she and her colleagues examine what measures could be introduced to tackle that problem?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am particularly pleased to hear the minister mention the issue of enforcement. Will she join me in condemning the unscrupulous practices of some shopkeepers who put private profit before children's health by selling tobacco products to children? Furthermore, will she and her colleagues examine what measures could be introduced to tackle that problem?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1931E120P189C707098", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26765, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26766, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 344.0, "QuestionHeading": "Landraise", "QuestionHeadingID": 26772, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 394.0, "DisplayOrder": 394.0, "ID": 26772, "ParentID": 26766 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Muldoon, Bristow", "ID": 1931, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Livingston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bristow Muldoon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bristow Muldoon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 397.0, "ContributionID": 707098, "EditedText": "Will the minister comment further on the planning and licensing aspects of landraise and on whether any improvements can be made to the system?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister comment further on the planning and licensing aspects of landraise and on whether any improvements can be made to the system?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1805E13P109C707100", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26765, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26766, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 344.0, "QuestionHeading": "Dental Health", "QuestionHeadingID": 26773, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 401.0, "DisplayOrder": 401.0, "ID": 26773, "ParentID": 26766 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Whitefield, Karen", "ID": 1805, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Airdrie and Shotts" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Karen Whitefield", "SpeakerDisplayName": "7. Karen Whitefield (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 402.0, "ContributionID": 707100, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what measures are in place to promote dental health in Scotland. (S1O-259) The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): A wide range of measures is in place, both at local and national levels, to promote dental health. Health boards run educational programmes in conjunction with local authorities and the voluntary sector. These focus on dietary change: reducing the high sugar foods and drinks consumed by children; oral hygiene—toothbrushing with a fluoride toothpaste; and attendance at the dentist for supportive advice and treatment. The Health Education Board for Scotland supports this activity through research and development of programmes and by the production of supporting audiovisual material.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what measures are in place to promote dental health in Scotland. (S1O-259) The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): A wide range of measures is in place, both at local and national levels, to promote dental health.

Health boards run educational programmes in conjunction with local authorities and the voluntary sector. These focus on dietary change: reducing the high sugar foods and drinks consumed by children; oral hygiene—toothbrushing with a fluoride toothpaste; and attendance at the dentist for supportive advice and treatment. The Health Education Board for Scotland supports this activity through research and development of programmes and by the production of supporting audiovisual material.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1888E265P358C707106", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26765, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26766, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 344.0, "QuestionHeading": "Tourism", "QuestionHeadingID": 26774, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 408.0, "DisplayOrder": 408.0, "ID": 26774, "ParentID": 26766 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morgan, Alasdair", "ID": 1888, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Galloway and Upper Nithsdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morgan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alasdair Morgan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 415.0, "ContributionID": 707106, "EditedText": "Is the minister saying that tourism is price inelastic?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is the minister saying that tourism is price inelastic?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1889E118P162C707107", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26765, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26766, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 344.0, "QuestionHeading": "Tourism", "QuestionHeadingID": 26774, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 408.0, "DisplayOrder": 408.0, "ID": 26774, "ParentID": 26766 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morrison, Mr Alasdair", "ID": 1889, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Western Isles" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morrison", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Morrison: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 417.0, "ContributionID": 707107, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2112E192P495C707111", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26765, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26766, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 344.0, "QuestionHeading": "Railways", "QuestionHeadingID": 26775, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 419.0, "DisplayOrder": 419.0, "ID": 26775, "ParentID": 26766 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacAskill, Kenny", "ID": 2112, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenny MacAskill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr MacAskill: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 426.0, "ContributionID": 707111, "EditedText": "This matter has been outstanding since December 1998—", "EditedTextHTML": "This matter has been outstanding since December 1998—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C707112", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26765, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26766, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 344.0, "QuestionHeading": "Railways", "QuestionHeadingID": 26775, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 419.0, "DisplayOrder": 419.0, "ID": 26775, "ParentID": 26766 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 428.0, "ContributionID": 707112, "EditedText": "Order. I did not call Mr MacAskill for another supplementary.", "EditedTextHTML": "Order. I did not call Mr MacAskill for another supplementary.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C707113", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26765, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26766, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 344.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland", "QuestionHeadingID": 26776, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 430.0, "DisplayOrder": 430.0, "ID": 26776, "ParentID": 26766 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "12. Dennis Canavan (Falkirk West): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 431.0, "ContributionID": 707113, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive when the First Minister expects to meet the Secretary of State for Scotland and what subjects he expects to discuss. (S1O-247) The First Minister (Donald Dewar): I meet the secretary of state regularly and no doubt I will be doing so again shortly. We discuss a wide range of subjects.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive when the First Minister expects to meet the Secretary of State for Scotland and what subjects he expects to discuss. (S1O-247) The First Minister (Donald Dewar): I meet the secretary of state regularly and no doubt I will be doing so again shortly. We discuss a wide range of subjects.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C707115", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26765, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26766, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 344.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland", "QuestionHeadingID": 26776, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 430.0, "DisplayOrder": 430.0, "ID": 26776, "ParentID": 26766 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 435.0, "ContributionID": 707115, "EditedText": "Mr Canavan, the last part of your question was out of order.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Canavan, the last part of your question was out of order.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C707116", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26765, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26766, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 344.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland", "QuestionHeadingID": 26776, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 430.0, "DisplayOrder": 430.0, "ID": 26776, "ParentID": 26766 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 437.0, "ContributionID": 707116, "EditedText": "Dennis Canavan will agree that there is no danger of John Reid ever being described as redundant. I note Dennis's interest in the activities of his former friends and colleagues; I am sure that they will welcome that. I hope that Mr Canavan will join me in rejoicing at the fact that the unemployment claimant count in Scotland is at its lowest level for almost 25 years. We have every intention of trying to keep it there and no doubt we will be working very happily, in co-operation with colleagues at Westminster, to do exactly that.", "EditedTextHTML": "Dennis Canavan will agree that there is no danger of John Reid ever being described as redundant. I note Dennis's interest in the activities of his former friends and colleagues; I am sure that they will welcome that.

I hope that Mr Canavan will join me in rejoicing at the fact that the unemployment claimant count in Scotland is at its lowest level for almost 25 years. We have every intention of trying to keep it there and no doubt we will be working very happily, in co-operation with colleagues at Westminster, to do exactly that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C707118", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26765, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26766, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 344.0, "QuestionHeading": "Health Care", "QuestionHeadingID": 26777, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 439.0, "DisplayOrder": 439.0, "ID": 26777, "ParentID": 26766 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 442.0, "ContributionID": 707118, "EditedText": "The new joint investment fund bridges the gap between primary and acute care. Local doctors feel strongly that the funds are not being released and that they are not able to deliver appropriate care. Diabetes is an example—", "EditedTextHTML": "The new joint investment fund bridges the gap between primary and acute care. Local doctors feel strongly that the funds are not being released and that they are not able to deliver appropriate care.

Diabetes is an example—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C707120", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26765, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26766, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 344.0, "QuestionHeading": "Health Care", "QuestionHeadingID": 26777, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 439.0, "DisplayOrder": 439.0, "ID": 26777, "ParentID": 26766 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 446.0, "ContributionID": 707120, "EditedText": "Will the minister support initiatives such as the care of diabetes to promote patient care under the new joint investment funding?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister support initiatives such as the care of diabetes to promote patient care under the new joint investment funding?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C707121", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26765, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26766, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 344.0, "QuestionHeading": "Health Care", "QuestionHeadingID": 26777, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 439.0, "DisplayOrder": 439.0, "ID": 26777, "ParentID": 26766 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 448.0, "ContributionID": 707121, "EditedText": "As I said earlier, the point of the joint investment fund is to have in place that and many other measures that will ensure that we find the best way of providing patient care that cuts across different sectors or different agencies. The joint investment fund is at an early stage of development. It is starting to make progress in bridging the gaps that Mrs Scanlon referred to, and I will continue to monitor that progress carefully.", "EditedTextHTML": "As I said earlier, the point of the joint investment fund is to have in place that and many other measures that will ensure that we find the best way of providing patient care that cuts across different sectors or different agencies. The joint investment fund is at an early stage of development. It is starting to make progress in bridging the gaps that Mrs Scanlon referred to, and I will continue to monitor that progress carefully.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1865E219P509C707123", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26765, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26766, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 344.0, "QuestionHeading": "Yorkhill Hospital", "QuestionHeadingID": 26778, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 450.0, "DisplayOrder": 450.0, "ID": 26778, "ParentID": 26766 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "White, Sandra", "ID": 1865, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sandra White", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms White: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 453.0, "ContributionID": 707123, "EditedText": "In the week that Tony Blair visited Hamilton and pledged to pour £21 billion extra— that is on record—into the health service and to give priority to consumers ahead of profits, why should any of the facilities, at Yorkhill or Edinburgh, be closed? Yorkhill carries out 65 per cent of paediatric heart operations in Scotland. It is the only hospital in Scotland with ECMO—extracorporeal membrane oxygenation—life support machines. It has two cardiac surgeons and is respected worldwide for its expertise. Does the minister agree that Yorkhill deserves that respect and must be retained?", "EditedTextHTML": "In the week that Tony Blair visited Hamilton and pledged to pour £21 billion extra— that is on record—into the health service and to give priority to consumers ahead of profits, why should any of the facilities, at Yorkhill or Edinburgh, be closed?

Yorkhill carries out 65 per cent of paediatric heart operations in Scotland. It is the only hospital in Scotland with ECMO—extracorporeal membrane oxygenation—life support machines. It has two cardiac surgeons and is respected worldwide for its expertise. Does the minister agree that Yorkhill deserves that respect and must be retained?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1865E219P509C707127", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26765, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26766, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 344.0, "QuestionHeading": "Yorkhill Hospital", "QuestionHeadingID": 26778, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 450.0, "DisplayOrder": 450.0, "ID": 26778, "ParentID": 26766 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "White, Sandra", "ID": 1865, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sandra White", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms White: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 461.0, "ContributionID": 707127, "EditedText": "I have been accused of reducing this debate to a turf war. I got my information from a newspaper article, which quotes Tony Blair.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have been accused of reducing this debate to a turf war. I got my information from a newspaper article, which quotes Tony Blair.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C707133", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26765, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26766, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 344.0, "QuestionHeading": "Teachers", "QuestionHeadingID": 26779, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 465.0, "DisplayOrder": 465.0, "ID": 26779, "ParentID": 26766 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Galbraith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 474.0, "ContributionID": 707133, "EditedText": "Spending on education has increased every year since 1967. This year, it is being increased by 8 per cent. Resources are available to COSLA to reach a settlement in the dispute. We are keeping a close eye on the situation and we await the outcome of the ballot. In the meantime, we are considering our options, which include setting up a committee of inquiry into the future of teachers' pay and conditions.", "EditedTextHTML": "Spending on education has increased every year since 1967. This year, it is being increased by 8 per cent. Resources are available to COSLA to reach a settlement in the dispute. We are keeping a close eye on the situation and we await the outcome of the ballot. In the meantime, we are considering our options, which include setting up a committee of inquiry into the future of teachers' pay and conditions.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1926E190P479C707142", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26765, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26766, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 344.0, "QuestionHeading": "Railways", "QuestionHeadingID": 26781, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 493.0, "DisplayOrder": 493.0, "ID": 26781, "ParentID": 26766 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Adam, Brian", "ID": 1926, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Adam", "SpeakerDisplayName": "18. Brian Adam (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 494.0, "ContributionID": 707142, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has to improve the railway network in Scotland. (S1O248)", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has to improve the railway network in Scotland. (S1O248)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C707151", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26765, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26766, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 344.0, "QuestionHeading": "Signum Circuits", "QuestionHeadingID": 26782, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 502.0, "DisplayOrder": 502.0, "ID": 26782, "ParentID": 26766 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 513.0, "ContributionID": 707151, "EditedText": "I am not conscious of direct quotations in the article, but the key issues are that we met the company and that it has a great plan of action. However, it is significant that regional selective assistance is not yet available. If we are able to get our proposal past the European Commission, we will want to help the company. Indeed, when I met senior officials from the company, I gave them every encouragement by assuring them that the proposal must move forward. We will do everything we can to assist. Court Proceedings", "EditedTextHTML": "I am not conscious of direct quotations in the article, but the key issues are that we met the company and that it has a great plan of action. However, it is significant that regional selective assistance is not yet available. If we are able to get our proposal past the European Commission, we will want to help the company. Indeed, when I met senior officials from the company, I gave them every encouragement by assuring them that the proposal must move forward. We will do everything we can to assist.

Court Proceedings

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C707154", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26765, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26766, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 344.0, "QuestionHeading": "Signum Circuits", "QuestionHeadingID": 26782, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 502.0, "DisplayOrder": 502.0, "ID": 26782, "ParentID": 26766 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Justice (Angus MacKay): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 519.0, "ContributionID": 707154, "EditedText": "I am grateful that you found time for Mr Gallie, Presiding Officer. The law governing criminal procedure and evidence is kept under constant review, but it is for the Lord Advocate and the courts to judge when technical procedural errors make court proceedings inappropriate or unsafe.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful that you found time for Mr Gallie, Presiding Officer.

The law governing criminal procedure and evidence is kept under constant review, but it is for the Lord Advocate and the courts to judge when technical procedural errors make court proceedings inappropriate or unsafe.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C707157", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26783, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 525.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26784, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 526.0, "QuestionHeading": "Concordats", "QuestionHeadingID": 26785, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 527.0, "DisplayOrder": 527.0, "ID": 26785, "ParentID": 26784 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "1. Mr Alex Salmond (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 528.0, "ContributionID": 707157, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive, further to the answer to question S1W-886 by Donald Dewar on 24 August 1999, what the current position is in respect of the development of concordats. (S1O258) The First Minister (Donald Dewar): The texts of the overarching concordats have now been received and, as I have made clear on many occasions, they will be published in due course and debated in the chamber.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive, further to the answer to question S1W-886 by Donald Dewar on 24 August 1999, what the current position is in respect of the development of concordats. (S1O258) The First Minister (Donald Dewar): The texts of the overarching concordats have now been received and, as I have made clear on many occasions, they will be published in due course and debated in the chamber.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C707158", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26783, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 525.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26784, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 526.0, "QuestionHeading": "Concordats", "QuestionHeadingID": 26785, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 527.0, "DisplayOrder": 527.0, "ID": 26785, "ParentID": 26784 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 530.0, "ContributionID": 707158, "EditedText": "On 31 March last year—18 months ago—in the House of Commons, Henry McLeish said that the single reason why the concordats had not been published was that work was at an early stage. Work cannot still be at an early stage. Can the First Minister give us a date when we can expect the concordats to be published?", "EditedTextHTML": "On 31 March last year—18 months ago—in the House of Commons, Henry McLeish said that the single reason why the concordats had not been published was that work was at an early stage. Work cannot still be at an early stage. Can the First Minister give us a date when we can expect the concordats to be published?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C707159", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26783, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 525.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26784, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 526.0, "QuestionHeading": "Concordats", "QuestionHeadingID": 26785, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 527.0, "DisplayOrder": 527.0, "ID": 26785, "ParentID": 26784 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 532.0, "ContributionID": 707159, "EditedText": "Work was certainly at a very early stage when my colleague made that statement. Mr Salmond will no doubt remember— and this is a serious matter—that these are the overarching concordats, so there are four parties to them. That means that there is a good deal of consultation and consideration. We are getting there, and I hope to have something positive to say shortly. The important thing is that these are working documents between administrations. They are ground rules to allow good co-operation over a wide range of areas, whether it be the formation of European policy or the correlation of statistics. It is important that we get them right, but they are agreements between the Whitehall departments and the various administrations party to them.", "EditedTextHTML": "Work was certainly at a very early stage when my colleague made that statement. Mr Salmond will no doubt remember— and this is a serious matter—that these are the overarching concordats, so there are four parties to them. That means that there is a good deal of consultation and consideration. We are getting there, and I hope to have something positive to say shortly.

The important thing is that these are working documents between administrations. They are ground rules to allow good co-operation over a wide range of areas, whether it be the formation of European policy or the correlation of statistics. It is important that we get them right, but they are agreements between the Whitehall departments and the various administrations party to them.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C707161", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26783, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 525.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26784, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 526.0, "QuestionHeading": "Concordats", "QuestionHeadingID": 26785, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 527.0, "DisplayOrder": 527.0, "ID": 26785, "ParentID": 26784 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 536.0, "ContributionID": 707161, "EditedText": "No. I do not see the concordats as being documents that can be amended in the way that Alex Salmond suggests. They are, as I said, administrative ground rules. They are not legally binding. They lay down good practice between the Scottish Administration and the Whitehall departments; they build on co-operation at official level and underpin present good relations. That is the right way to approach them. That is their status. I hope that this will not be seen as gratuitous good advice that is resented, but it is important for Mr Salmond to realise that if he approaches the concordats on the assumption that he will apply an inappropriate test to them, he will no doubt be disappointed by them. If he sees them as do the vast majority of the people of Scotland who voted for the devolution settlement, he will see them as a sensible, useful and progressive way of ensuring that the new settlement works well.", "EditedTextHTML": "No. I do not see the concordats as being documents that can be amended in the way that Alex Salmond suggests.

They are, as I said, administrative ground rules. They are not legally binding. They lay down good practice between the Scottish Administration and the Whitehall departments; they build on co-operation at official level and underpin present good relations. That is the right way to approach them. That is their status.

I hope that this will not be seen as gratuitous good advice that is resented, but it is important for Mr Salmond to realise that if he approaches the concordats on the assumption that he will apply an inappropriate test to them, he will no doubt be disappointed by them. If he sees them as do the vast majority of the people of Scotland who voted for the devolution settlement, he will see them as a sensible, useful and progressive way of ensuring that the new settlement works well.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.5140435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C707166", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26783, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 525.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26784, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 526.0, "QuestionHeading": "Prime Minister (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26786, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 542.0, "DisplayOrder": 542.0, "ID": 26786, "ParentID": 26784 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 547.0, "ContributionID": 707166, "EditedText": "I agree entirely with the First Minister and I welcome his answer. I am glad that there is a degree of concord at this level of government. Will the First Minster tell us whether, at his meeting with the Prime Minister on 3 September, they discussed the future of higher education funding in Scotland? Will he let us know whether the Prime Minister, as the architect of tuition fees, is happy for tuition fees to be abolished for Scottish students, if that is what the Cubie committee recommends?", "EditedTextHTML": "I agree entirely with the First Minister and I welcome his answer. I am glad that there is a degree of concord at this level of government.

Will the First Minster tell us whether, at his meeting with the Prime Minister on 3 September, they discussed the future of higher education funding in Scotland? Will he let us know whether the Prime Minister, as the architect of tuition fees, is happy for tuition fees to be abolished for Scottish students, if that is what the Cubie committee recommends?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.5140435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1762E216P508C707174", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26783, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 525.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26784, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 526.0, "QuestionHeading": "Prime Minister (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26786, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 542.0, "DisplayOrder": 542.0, "ID": 26786, "ParentID": 26784 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Elder, Dorothy-Grace", "ID": 1762, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 563.0, "ContributionID": 707174, "EditedText": "Further to that lesson from Mr Dewar's charm school, and as Mr McLetchie's question was confined to meetings between the First Minister and Mr Blair, will the Scottish Executive say how many times the Prime Minister of England telephones the First Minister of Scotland about the governance of Scotland?", "EditedTextHTML": "Further to that lesson from Mr Dewar's charm school, and as Mr McLetchie's question was confined to meetings between the First Minister and Mr Blair, will the Scottish Executive say how many times the Prime Minister of England telephones the First Minister of Scotland about the governance of Scotland?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.5140435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C707175", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26783, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 525.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26784, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 526.0, "QuestionHeading": "Prime Minister (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26786, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 542.0, "DisplayOrder": 542.0, "ID": 26786, "ParentID": 26784 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 565.0, "ContributionID": 707175, "EditedText": "We can look at it two ways: either it adds to the gaiety of the nation or it is a cross to bear—I am not quite sure which. I have made it clear that I keep in close touch with the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, Tony Blair. I am glad to do so. I count him as a friend and, more important, as a player of some significance. However we organise our affairs in this Parliament and in this country, I can assure Dorothy-Grace Elder that that will still be the case.", "EditedTextHTML": "We can look at it two ways: either it adds to the gaiety of the nation or it is a cross to bear—I am not quite sure which. I have made it clear that I keep in close touch with the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, Tony Blair. I am glad to do so. I count him as a friend and, more important, as a player of some significance. However we organise our affairs in this Parliament and in this country, I can assure Dorothy-Grace Elder that that will still be the case.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.5140435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C707176", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26783, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 525.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26784, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 526.0, "QuestionHeading": "Amnesic Shellfish Poisoning", "QuestionHeadingID": 26787, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "DisplayOrder": 567.0, "ID": 26787, "ParentID": 26784 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "3. George Lyon (Argyll and Bute) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 568.0, "ContributionID": 707176, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what resources, in terms of funding and expertise, are being made available to tackle the algae responsible for amnesic shellfish poisoning (ASP), and to ascertain the threat to public health represented by ASP, and what time scale it has set for lifting the ban on scallop fishing currently in place on Scotland's north-west coast. (S1O-262) The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): Mr Lyon's question covers a number of points; I will address each one briefly. The monitoring and research programme on marine biotoxins is funded by the Scottish Executive and amounts to approximately £600,000 per year. Amnesic shellfish poisoning is a naturally occurring toxin that causes illness in humans. The current ban on scallop fishing will be lifted as soon as toxin levels are consistently below the specified legal limit.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what resources, in terms of funding and expertise, are being made available to tackle the algae responsible for amnesic shellfish poisoning (ASP), and to ascertain the threat to public health represented by ASP, and what time scale it has set for lifting the ban on scallop fishing currently in place on Scotland's north-west coast. (S1O-262) The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): Mr Lyon's question covers a number of points; I will address each one briefly. The monitoring and research programme on marine biotoxins is funded by the Scottish Executive and amounts to approximately £600,000 per year. Amnesic shellfish poisoning is a naturally occurring toxin that causes illness in humans.

The current ban on scallop fishing will be lifted as soon as toxin levels are consistently below the specified legal limit.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.5140435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2066E64P88C707179", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26783, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 525.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26784, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 526.0, "QuestionHeading": "Amnesic Shellfish Poisoning", "QuestionHeadingID": 26787, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "DisplayOrder": 567.0, "ID": 26787, "ParentID": 26784 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McGrigor, Jamie", "ID": 2066, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie McGrigor", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Jamie McGrigor (Highlands and Islands) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 574.0, "ContributionID": 707179, "EditedText": "Is the Executive aware of the laudable responsibility shown by Scottish scallop fishermen in complying with the ban despite the great financial loss to themselves? Can ministers give some idea of the lead time between the results of monitoring being ascertained by the scientists and those results being made public?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is the Executive aware of the laudable responsibility shown by Scottish scallop fishermen in complying with the ban despite the great financial loss to themselves? Can ministers give some idea of the lead time between the results of monitoring being ascertained by the scientists and those results being made public?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.5140435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C707237", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26788, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 590.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 590.0, "ID": 26788, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 702.0, "ContributionID": 707237, "EditedText": "This has been an interesting debate with many interesting speeches. We have heard members of the SNP reflecting on the contents of \"Making it work together\" and proposing ideas to hold the Executive to account. We have heard from members on the Labour back benches. Trish Godman in particular made very clear her determination to hold the Executive to account. I would have been delighted to witness the exchange that took place between her and the First Minister as he left the chamber, but I am sure that Trish will keep that for her private thoughts and reflect on it in the months to come as she harries the Labour Government. Labour members have given varying degrees of support for many of the points in the programme for government. Some speeches from Labour members were refreshing—especially those from Janis Hughes and Elaine Smith, who considered some of the key aspects of the Government's policies on child care and the health service. The points they made are welcome. In an intervention while John McAllion was speaking, I questioned the real value of having a day-long debate on this subject. The amendment whose proposer I am summing up on behalf of refers to the use of valuable parliamentary time to consider such issues. I know that the use of parliamentary time concerns the Minister for Parliament, whom I am glad to see here. On his behalf, people have been telling newspapers that we need to spend more time in the chamber. If more time is needed, we will have more time, but we could have spent today a little bit more productively than in discussion of a document that, for all the joking about photographs, reveals only the development of new timetables for the implementation of the Government's previously announced proposals, and—as a number of my colleagues have said—the previously announced proposals of the previous Government. I accept—I can see that the Minister for Finance cannot contain himself until I finish this sentence— that there is new material in the document and that there are new timetables. There are also different timetables—timetables that have slipped and have not been kept to from previous commitments. We should concentrate on that when measuring the Government's performance in the future.", "EditedTextHTML": "This has been an interesting debate with many interesting speeches. We have heard members of the SNP reflecting on the contents of \"Making it work together\" and proposing ideas to hold the Executive to account. We have heard from members on the Labour back benches. Trish Godman in particular made very clear her determination to hold the Executive to account. I would have been delighted to witness the exchange that took place between her and the First Minister as he left the chamber, but I am sure that Trish will keep that for her private thoughts and reflect on it in the months to come as she harries the Labour Government.

Labour members have given varying degrees of support for many of the points in the programme for government. Some speeches from Labour members were refreshing—especially those from Janis Hughes and Elaine Smith, who considered some of the key aspects of the Government's policies on child care and the health service. The points they made are welcome.

In an intervention while John McAllion was speaking, I questioned the real value of having a day-long debate on this subject. The amendment whose proposer I am summing up on behalf of refers to the use of valuable parliamentary time to consider such issues. I know that the use of parliamentary time concerns the Minister for Parliament, whom I am glad to see here. On his behalf, people have been telling newspapers that we need to spend more time in the chamber.

If more time is needed, we will have more time, but we could have spent today a little bit more productively than in discussion of a document that, for all the joking about photographs, reveals only the development of new timetables for the implementation of the Government's previously announced proposals, and—as a number of my colleagues have said—the previously announced proposals of the previous Government.

I accept—I can see that the Minister for Finance cannot contain himself until I finish this sentence— that there is new material in the document and that there are new timetables. There are also different timetables—timetables that have slipped and have not been kept to from previous commitments. We should concentrate on that when measuring the Government's performance in the future.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:30:29.7611592+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C707239", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26788, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 590.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 590.0, "ID": 26788, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 706.0, "ContributionID": 707239, "EditedText": "There are numerous examples of Governments, such as the US Government, that have come into power with timetables. It is important for us to judge the Government on the measures that it is introducing. I concede to Richard Simpson that it is helpful to have—not in black and white, more in pastel shades—a measurable timetable to which we can hold the Government accountable, so that we do not have a plethora of announcements of the same material with the only change being the timetable itself. The point that my colleagues have made throughout the debate is that the Government has been responsible for the slippage in its timetable. It would have been more productive to have had a debate about some of the Government's specific policy initiatives. Before lunch, the Minister for Parliament told us that it would not be convenient to have a debate on the manufacturing sector in 10 days' time. We could have had that debate today, to drill into some of the detail that underpins the froth that has been put before Parliament in the form of the document, instead of returning to a debate that we had in June. We could have focused on the real policy questions that concern the public. Much has been said about partnership. Sylvia Jackson talked about real partnership and the First Minister said that it was important to co-operate with policies pursued by the UK Government. Perhaps that explains Sarah Boyack's bewildering answers, given at yesterday's meeting of the Transport and the Environment Committee, about the fact that no representations about fuel prices had been made by this Administration to the UK Treasury. Perhaps what the Executive means by partnership is that the UK Government gives us the bad news about such issues. Speaking of partnership, George Lyon—I am sorry that he is not here—opened his speech at the start of the debate by saying that he was speaking for the Liberal Democrats. I thought, \"Well, here we go.\" I thought that we were going to get a formalisation of the points that Marilyne MacLaren has been raising during the Hamilton South by-election campaign. She has not just complained about the Westminster Government, but declared her determination to vote for the abolition of tuition fees. In his speech for the Liberal Democrats, George Lyon made no mention of his party's varying, variable or completely dumped stance on tuition fees.", "EditedTextHTML": "There are numerous examples of Governments, such as the US Government, that have come into power with timetables. It is important for us to judge the Government on the measures that it is introducing. I concede to Richard Simpson that it is helpful to have—not in black and white, more in pastel shades—a measurable timetable to which we can hold the Government accountable, so that we do not have a plethora of announcements of the same material with the only change being the timetable itself. The point that my colleagues have made throughout the debate is that the Government has been responsible for the slippage in its timetable.

It would have been more productive to have had a debate about some of the Government's specific policy initiatives. Before lunch, the Minister for Parliament told us that it would not be convenient to have a debate on the manufacturing sector in 10 days' time. We could have had that debate today, to drill into some of the detail that underpins the froth that has been put before Parliament in the form of the document, instead of returning to a debate that we had in June. We could have focused on the real policy questions that concern the public.

Much has been said about partnership. Sylvia Jackson talked about real partnership and the First Minister said that it was important to co-operate with policies pursued by the UK Government. Perhaps that explains Sarah Boyack's bewildering answers, given at yesterday's meeting of the Transport and the Environment Committee, about the fact that no representations about fuel prices had been made by this Administration to the UK Treasury. Perhaps what the Executive means by partnership is that the UK Government gives us the bad news about such issues.

Speaking of partnership, George Lyon—I am sorry that he is not here—opened his speech at the start of the debate by saying that he was speaking for the Liberal Democrats. I thought, \"Well, here we go.\" I thought that we were going to get a formalisation of the points that Marilyne MacLaren has been raising during the Hamilton

South by-election campaign. She has not just complained about the Westminster Government, but declared her determination to vote for the abolition of tuition fees. In his speech for the Liberal Democrats, George Lyon made no mention of his party's varying, variable or completely dumped stance on tuition fees.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:30:29.7611592+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C707245", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26788, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 590.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 590.0, "ID": 26788, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 718.0, "ContributionID": 707245, "EditedText": "I am coming to a conclusion, Iain. I will begin to sum up. I must observe the time limits as well. Hugh Henry attacked the Opposition for lacking ambition in what we have set out in this debate. I want to tackle his criticisms. He said that he was interested in holding the Executive to account—a comment that has been made by other members of the Executive and the Labour party—and made four criticisms. He said that we had no ambition to tackle poverty, no ambition to tackle the lack of opportunity, no ambition to tackle unemployment, and no ambition to raise ambitions in Scotland. Is it not ambitious enough to demand a hard target on the number of people in Scotland who will be removed from poverty as a result of this programme? What is unambitious about that? A hard target does not appear in this programme, but soft measures for delivering it do. How about testing the effectiveness of the Government's measures? There is nothing in this programme to test how effectively the Government changes the lives of people. What about the ambition to tackle the lack of opportunity? Is it not ambitious enough to demand the removal of obstacles to higher education by putting an end to tuition fees and by introducing student grants and sensible student maintenance? That is more ambitious than palming the problem off to a committee that does not immediately implement the priorities of the people of Scotland as expressed after the election campaign. Is it not ambitious enough for all of us, regardless of our politics, to recognise, as numerous Scottish companies have recognised over the past 24 hours, that yesterday's rise in interest rates will be damaging to the productive capability of the Scottish economy and that we do not need those increases? Is it not ambitious enough for all of us—the Liberal Democrat party, the Conservatives, the SNP and the Labour party—to make a representation to the monetary policy committee on behalf of the Scottish Parliament that says that that strategy is bad for Scotland? Is it unambitious to desire to create the best economic conditions for Scotland? Instead, we are saying that we will take what we get because the priorities of the monetary policy committee suit the priorities of the south of England and the Labour Government at Westminster. How can we break out of that when it goes to the heart of the Scottish economy? Is it not ambitious enough for one of my colleagues, Mr Neil, to compare the prospects for the Scottish economy and society with those of other small European countries? He should be able to do that in this chamber and not be laughed at by Labour members who are not prepared to see that we have the ability to raise sights, standards and expectations or that we can compare ourselves with other countries and have ambition to deliver a new and better society. That is what is lacking from this programme. It was lacking in June when we debated it, it is still lacking today, and I suspect that it will be lacking when we have the first debate on how effective this Government has been in changing the lives of people in Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am coming to a conclusion, Iain. I will begin to sum up. I must observe the time limits as well.

Hugh Henry attacked the Opposition for lacking ambition in what we have set out in this debate. I want to tackle his criticisms. He said that he was interested in holding the Executive to account—a comment that has been made by other members of the Executive and the Labour party—and made four criticisms. He said that we had no ambition to tackle poverty, no ambition to tackle the lack of opportunity, no ambition to tackle unemployment, and no ambition to raise ambitions in Scotland.

Is it not ambitious enough to demand a hard target on the number of people in Scotland who will be removed from poverty as a result of this programme? What is unambitious about that? A hard target does not appear in this programme, but soft measures for delivering it do.

How about testing the effectiveness of the Government's measures? There is nothing in this programme to test how effectively the Government changes the lives of people. What about the ambition to tackle the lack of opportunity? Is it not ambitious enough to demand the removal of obstacles to higher education by putting an end to tuition fees and by introducing student grants and sensible student maintenance? That is more ambitious than palming the problem off to a committee that does not immediately implement the priorities of the people of Scotland as expressed after the election campaign.

Is it not ambitious enough for all of us, regardless of our politics, to recognise, as numerous Scottish companies have recognised over the past 24 hours, that yesterday's rise in interest rates will be damaging to the productive capability of the Scottish economy and that we do not need those increases?

Is it not ambitious enough for all of us—the Liberal Democrat party, the Conservatives, the SNP and the Labour party—to make a representation to the monetary policy committee on behalf of the Scottish Parliament that says that that strategy is bad for Scotland?

Is it unambitious to desire to create the best economic conditions for Scotland? Instead, we are saying that we will take what we get because the priorities of the monetary policy committee suit the priorities of the south of England and the Labour Government at Westminster. How can we break out of that when it goes to the heart of the Scottish economy?

Is it not ambitious enough for one of my colleagues, Mr Neil, to compare the prospects for the Scottish economy and society with those of other small European countries? He should be able to do that in this chamber and not be laughed at by Labour members who are not prepared to see that we have the ability to raise sights, standards and expectations or that we can compare ourselves with other countries and have ambition to deliver a new and better society. That is what is lacking from this programme. It was lacking in June when we debated it, it is still lacking today, and I suspect that it will be lacking when we have the first debate on how effective this Government has been in changing the lives of people in Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:30:33.6801878+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C707248", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26788, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 590.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 590.0, "ID": 26788, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 725.0, "ContributionID": 707248, "EditedText": "Does Mr Wallace believe that the economy of Scotland is overheating? I presume that that is what he means by high inflation throughout the UK. Does he believe that yesterday's announcement on interest rates was helpful to the Scottish economy?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does Mr Wallace believe that the economy of Scotland is overheating? I presume that that is what he means by high inflation throughout the UK. Does he believe that yesterday's announcement on interest rates was helpful to the Scottish economy?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:30:33.6801878+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1857E136P222C707199", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26788, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 590.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 590.0, "ID": 26788, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeill, Pauline", "ID": 1857, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Kelvin" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Pauline McNeill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Pauline McNeill (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 619.0, "ContributionID": 707199, "EditedText": "I will address one part of the Government's legislative programme—land reform. Land reform has been criticised as one of the most uninteresting topics in the Government's programme, but it is actually one of the more interesting parts, as we are legislating for the rights of ordinary people—this is about our right of use over our own land. It is because we are a modernising Government that we recognise that Scotland is still the only country in the western world that has a feudal system. That system has existed for 300 years and must be swept away. The old laws have created traumatic situations for those ordinary people who do not have the right to improve their properties. The Government's programme will sweep away that system. The abolition of feu duties, the rights of communities to buy their own land and the right to enhance one's property will no longer be determined by a remote superior. Most important will be the sweeping away of the obscure language—such as vassal and superior— that that no one understands. The role of this Parliament and its committees is to add to the Government's programmes in a positive way. We must not stop at what we have done, so I will be supporting Adam Ingram's proposal for a bill on the abolition of leasehold casualties, because that is a way of demonstrating that we aim to modernise land laws. I put the case that the Government's agenda is a positive one. Land use must be viewed as a central issue for Scots. We must ensure that our national resources are used for the benefit of all and that we all have the right to determine rights of ownership. Those are crucial issue for Scots, as they understand.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will address one part of the Government's legislative programme—land reform. Land reform has been criticised as one of the most uninteresting topics in the Government's programme, but it is actually one of the more interesting parts, as we are legislating for the rights of ordinary people—this is about our right of use over our own land.

It is because we are a modernising Government that we recognise that Scotland is still the only country in the western world that has a feudal system. That system has existed for 300 years and must be swept away. The old laws have created traumatic situations for those ordinary people who do not have the right to improve their properties. The Government's programme will sweep away that system. The abolition of feu duties, the rights of communities to buy their own land and the right to enhance one's property will no longer be determined by a remote superior. Most important will be the sweeping away of the obscure language—such as vassal and superior— that that no one understands.

The role of this Parliament and its committees is to add to the Government's programmes in a positive way. We must not stop at what we have done, so I will be supporting Adam Ingram's proposal for a bill on the abolition of leasehold casualties, because that is a way of demonstrating that we aim to modernise land laws.

I put the case that the Government's agenda is a positive one. Land use must be viewed as a central issue for Scots. We must ensure that our national resources are used for the benefit of all and that we all have the right to determine rights of ownership. Those are crucial issue for Scots, as they understand.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:29:30.3706249+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C707005", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 191.0, "ContributionID": 707005, "EditedText": "I am grateful to Mr McAllion for allowing my intervention. In a week that has seen a renaissance in the financing of Heart of Midlothian Football Club, his attack on that particular point is scurrilous. There is a serious issue that I want to raise. We are debating the programme for government, yes, but we have done that already. As Mr Salmond made clear in his comments earlier, very little of the programme for government has changed since the election, never mind since the debates we have had since the Parliament was constituted in the middle of May.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful to Mr McAllion for allowing my intervention. In a week that has seen a renaissance in the financing of Heart of Midlothian Football Club, his attack on that particular point is scurrilous. There is a serious issue that I want to raise. We are debating the programme for government, yes, but we have done that already. As Mr Salmond made clear in his comments earlier, very little of the programme for government has changed since the election, never mind since the debates we have had since the Parliament was constituted in the middle of May.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:26:39.873439+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C707209", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26788, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 590.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 590.0, "ID": 26788, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fergus Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 642.0, "ContributionID": 707209, "EditedText": "The SNP will always support progressive taxation, just as the late John Smith did. I inform Duncan McNeil that the yield from Gordon Brown's increases in fuel tax is far in excess of one penny in the pound. The difference is that Scotland gets none of that money back, while it would have had the whole of the yield from forgoing Gordon Brown's one penny tax cut, which we advocated. In the absence of any specific measures in the document, is the Government even willing to recognise the fact that Scotland has the highest fuel tax in the European Union? In her meeting with Gordon Brown, Sarah Boyack failed to mention the issue. I find that almost incredible. The Government has no ideas for solutions and no idea of the problems. Perhaps it has one cunning plan: to suggest that the 100,000 Scots for whom it aims to create jobs apply to Chris Tarrant's programme, \"Who Wants to be a Millionaire?\" I ask the Executive to answer this simple question: which country in the European Union has the highest fuel tax? Is it a) France, b) Germany, c) Spain or d) Scotland, trapped in the United Kingdom? The Executive does not have to answer immediately. If Mr McConnell wants, he can telephone a friend. Gordon Brown, for instance, who not only knows the answer but caused the answer. When we ask the audience on 23 September, we will find that they know the answer, too. They also know who will best fight for the interests of the people of Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "The SNP will always support progressive taxation, just as the late John Smith did. I inform Duncan McNeil that the yield from Gordon Brown's increases in fuel tax is far in excess of one penny in the pound. The difference is that Scotland gets none of that money back, while it would have had the whole of the yield from forgoing Gordon Brown's one penny tax cut, which we advocated.

In the absence of any specific measures in the document, is the Government even willing to recognise the fact that Scotland has the highest fuel tax in the European Union? In her meeting with Gordon Brown, Sarah Boyack failed to mention the issue. I find that almost incredible.

The Government has no ideas for solutions and no idea of the problems. Perhaps it has one cunning plan: to suggest that the 100,000 Scots for whom it aims to create jobs apply to Chris Tarrant's programme, \"Who Wants to be a Millionaire?\" I ask the Executive to answer this simple question: which country in the European Union has the highest fuel tax? Is it a) France, b) Germany, c) Spain or d) Scotland, trapped in the United Kingdom?

The Executive does not have to answer immediately. If Mr McConnell wants, he can telephone a friend. Gordon Brown, for instance, who not only knows the answer but caused the answer.

When we ask the audience on 23 September, we will find that they know the answer, too. They also know who will best fight for the interests of the people of Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:01:17.555696+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C707145", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26765, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26766, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 344.0, "QuestionHeading": "Railways", "QuestionHeadingID": 26781, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 493.0, "DisplayOrder": 493.0, "ID": 26781, "ParentID": 26766 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 500.0, "ContributionID": 707145, "EditedText": "As I said to Mr MacAskill earlier, I am happy to address that matter and will provide a detailed answer in due course.", "EditedTextHTML": "As I said to Mr MacAskill earlier, I am happy to address that matter and will provide a detailed answer in due course.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:13.3570755+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1756E184P464C707148", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26765, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26766, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 344.0, "QuestionHeading": "Signum Circuits", "QuestionHeadingID": 26782, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 502.0, "DisplayOrder": 502.0, "ID": 26782, "ParentID": 26766 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Grahame, Christine", "ID": 1756, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Christine Grahame", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Christine Grahame: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 507.0, "ContributionID": 707148, "EditedText": "I thank the minister for his answer. Is the minister aware that Signum Circuits has a full order book and has set up a European development to bring in business? He may not be aware that the company is in a position to take on 40 or 50 workers formerly employed by Viasystems. Will he assure me that progress towards allowing Signum Circuits, an indigenous Borders firm, to expand into the former Viasystems site will take place as soon as possible, if not immediately?", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the minister for his answer.

Is the minister aware that Signum Circuits has a full order book and has set up a European development to bring in business? He may not be aware that the company is in a position to take on 40 or 50 workers formerly employed by Viasystems. Will he assure me that progress towards allowing Signum Circuits, an indigenous Borders firm, to expand into the former Viasystems site will take place as soon as possible, if not immediately?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:01:31.7066757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1756E184P464C707150", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26765, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26766, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 344.0, "QuestionHeading": "Signum Circuits", "QuestionHeadingID": 26782, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 502.0, "DisplayOrder": 502.0, "ID": 26782, "ParentID": 26766 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Grahame, Christine", "ID": 1756, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Christine Grahame", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Christine Grahame: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 511.0, "ContributionID": 707150, "EditedText": "Is the minister aware that that article was prompted by the fact that the company itself is most concerned that the commercial urgency of expansion does not appear to be given enough weight by the Executive?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is the minister aware that that article was prompted by the fact that the company itself is most concerned that the commercial urgency of expansion does not appear to be given enough weight by the Executive?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:01:31.7066757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C707129", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26765, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26766, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 344.0, "QuestionHeading": "Teachers", "QuestionHeadingID": 26779, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 465.0, "DisplayOrder": 465.0, "ID": 26779, "ParentID": 26766 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "16. Nicola Sturgeon (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 466.0, "ContributionID": 707129, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what steps it is taking to help bring about a settlement in the dispute over teachers' pay and conditions. (S1O-267) The Minister for Children and Education (Mr Sam Galbraith): The Educational Institute of Scotland has balloted its members. We have stressed the need for a settlement and regret that the EIS has recommended a no vote. We have not yet heard the outcome of the ballot and do not want to prejudge it. As I have said, however, an adverse result would raise serious questions about the future of the present Scottish Joint Negotiating Committee machinery. We are examining that issue closely and are considering the arguments for and against establishing a committee of inquiry into the future of teachers' pay and conditions. However, we await the outcome of the ballot.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what steps it is taking to help bring about a settlement in the dispute over teachers' pay and conditions. (S1O-267) The Minister for Children and Education (Mr Sam Galbraith): The Educational Institute of Scotland has balloted its members. We have stressed the need for a settlement and regret that the EIS has recommended a no vote. We have not yet heard the outcome of the ballot and do not want to prejudge it. As I have said, however, an adverse result would raise serious questions about the future of the present Scottish Joint Negotiating Committee machinery. We are examining that issue closely and are considering the arguments for and against establishing a committee of inquiry into the future of teachers' pay and conditions. However, we await the outcome of the ballot.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:00:59.8834011+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C707016", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 216.0, "ContributionID": 707016, "EditedText": "In his remarks, Alex Salmond started an entertaining trend by commenting on some of the nice pictures that appear in the document \"Making it work together\". My favourite is the one of Sam Galbraith sitting next to a poster headed \"Minor Trouble Shooting!\" Given some of Sam Galbraith's public comments over the past few weeks, \"trouble making\" might be more appropriate. It is not so much the document, but the letter from Donald Dewar accompanying it which first caught my attention. In the letter, he says that the document represents an unprecedented step by Scottish ministers. We heard him say this morning that the document is original. The problem is that both \"unprecedented\" and \"original\" suggest that there might be something new and challenging in the document. As Mr Salmond outlined this morning, nothing could be further from the truth. It is simply a rehash—a repackaged mixture of the 1997 covenant with Scotland, the election manifestos of 1997 and 1999, the comprehensive spending review of 1998 and all the countless launches and relaunches in between.", "EditedTextHTML": "In his remarks, Alex Salmond started an entertaining trend by commenting on some of the nice pictures that appear in the document \"Making it work together\". My favourite is the one of Sam Galbraith sitting next to a poster headed \"Minor Trouble Shooting!\" Given some of Sam Galbraith's public comments over the past few weeks, \"trouble making\" might be more appropriate.

It is not so much the document, but the letter from Donald Dewar accompanying it which first caught my attention. In the letter, he says that the document represents an unprecedented step by Scottish ministers. We heard him say this morning that the document is original. The problem is that both \"unprecedented\" and \"original\" suggest that there might be something new and challenging in the document. As Mr Salmond outlined this morning, nothing could be further from the truth. It is simply a rehash—a repackaged mixture of the 1997 covenant with Scotland, the election manifestos of 1997 and 1999, the comprehensive spending review of 1998 and all the countless launches and relaunches in between.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:00:50.3207435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C707180", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26783, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 525.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26784, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 526.0, "QuestionHeading": "Amnesic Shellfish Poisoning", "QuestionHeadingID": 26787, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "DisplayOrder": 567.0, "ID": 26787, "ParentID": 26784 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 576.0, "ContributionID": 707180, "EditedText": "I am glad that Mr McGrigor mentioned the scallop fishermen's approach to the ban. They have been very responsible, recognising that our imposition of the ban is in the interests of public health. I am grateful to them for having adopted such a positive approach in their discussions with us. As I indicated earlier, we keep in regular contact with the fishermen about the test results and have partly lifted the ban where it was safe to do so. We will continue to take the right precautions in the interests of public health while remaining mindful of the interests of the scallop fishermen.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am glad that Mr McGrigor mentioned the scallop fishermen's approach to the ban. They have been very responsible, recognising that our imposition of the ban is in the interests of public health. I am grateful to them for having adopted such a positive approach in their discussions with us. As I indicated earlier, we keep in regular contact with the fishermen about the test results and have partly lifted the ban where it was safe to do so. We will continue to take the right precautions in the interests of public health while remaining mindful of the interests of the scallop fishermen.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5140115+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2140E187P335C707181", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26783, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 525.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26784, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 526.0, "QuestionHeading": "Amnesic Shellfish Poisoning", "QuestionHeadingID": 26787, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "DisplayOrder": 567.0, "ID": 26787, "ParentID": 26784 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Rumbles, Mike", "ID": 2140, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Rumbles", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Mike Rumbles (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 578.0, "ContributionID": 707181, "EditedText": "In recognising that ASP is a major public health issue, how close is the Minister for Health and Community Care to setting a time scale for lifting the other important ban—on beef on the bone?", "EditedTextHTML": "In recognising that ASP is a major public health issue, how close is the Minister for Health and Community Care to setting a time scale for lifting the other important ban—on beef on the bone?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5140115+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C707182", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26783, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 525.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26784, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 526.0, "QuestionHeading": "Amnesic Shellfish Poisoning", "QuestionHeadingID": 26787, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "DisplayOrder": 567.0, "ID": 26787, "ParentID": 26784 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 580.0, "ContributionID": 707182, "EditedText": "I am sorry, but that question is on a different subject.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry, but that question is on a different subject.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5140115+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C707186", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26783, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 525.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26784, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 526.0, "QuestionHeading": "Amnesic Shellfish Poisoning", "QuestionHeadingID": 26787, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "DisplayOrder": 567.0, "ID": 26787, "ParentID": 26784 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 588.0, "ContributionID": 707186, "EditedText": "I acknowledge and concur with Lewis Macdonald's views on the role played by the Marine Laboratory in Aberdeen. It is engaged in research not only in the Scottish interest, but as part of a worldwide research programme. We give a good degree of support to the Marine Laboratory, which does an excellent job. We must continually consider how such matters can be investigated further, and take the necessary action in the future.", "EditedTextHTML": "I acknowledge and concur with Lewis Macdonald's views on the role played by the Marine Laboratory in Aberdeen. It is engaged in research not only in the Scottish interest, but as part of a worldwide research programme. We give a good degree of support to the Marine Laboratory, which does an excellent job. We must continually consider how such matters can be investigated further, and take the necessary action in the future.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5140115+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1854E38P164C707188", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26788, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 590.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 590.0, "ID": 26788, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Godman, Trish", "ID": 1854, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Renfrewshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Trish Godman", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Trish Godman (West Renfrewshire) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 594.0, "ContributionID": 707188, "EditedText": "I do not intend to speak for long. I did not intend to speak in this debate at all, but I felt that it was incumbent on me to pick up on some of the comments made by SNP members this morning. Alex Neil said that there was nothing about poverty in this document. Elaine and I had to ask ourselves whether he had read it. Page 12 is about nothing but poverty and the social inclusion agenda. The document states that the Scottish social inclusion strategy will be produced this year and is designed specifically to address poverty and the regeneration of communities. Social inclusion is, and should be, the concern of all ministers and their departments. Comments on consultation appear throughout the document. I am glad that Dorothy-Grace Elder has remained in the chamber, as I would like to pick up on what I thought was a pretty damaging comment that she made this morning about the social work department of Glasgow City Council. As Dorothy- Grace Elder's comments are on the public record, I would like to challenge on the public record what she said. I start by declaring an interest. As the senior convener of social work at that time, I instigated the review on Easthill with officials in January 1998, and the consultation process continued until July 1999. That process was thorough and wide- ranging. It is always difficult to ask people who have attended the same care centre all their lives, who are used to the people there and the area, whether that is the best place for them now, given what we know about what is wrong with them. Each individual was assessed thoroughly and each carer was taken into consideration. We are talking about people with learning difficulties, not people with a handicap, as Dorothy-Grace sometimes says. Perhaps she should look to her language.", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not intend to speak for long. I did not intend to speak in this debate at all, but I felt that it was incumbent on me to pick up on some of the comments made by SNP members this morning.

Alex Neil said that there was nothing about poverty in this document. Elaine and I had to ask ourselves whether he had read it. Page 12 is about nothing but poverty and the social inclusion agenda. The document states that the Scottish social inclusion strategy will be produced this year and is designed specifically to address poverty and the regeneration of communities. Social inclusion is, and should be, the concern of all ministers and their departments. Comments on consultation appear throughout the document.

I am glad that Dorothy-Grace Elder has remained in the chamber, as I would like to pick up on what I thought was a pretty damaging comment that she made this morning about the social work department of Glasgow City Council. As Dorothy- Grace Elder's comments are on the public record, I would like to challenge on the public record what she said.

I start by declaring an interest. As the senior convener of social work at that time, I instigated the review on Easthill with officials in January 1998, and the consultation process continued until July 1999. That process was thorough and wide- ranging. It is always difficult to ask people who have attended the same care centre all their lives, who are used to the people there and the area, whether that is the best place for them now, given what we know about what is wrong with them. Each individual was assessed thoroughly and each carer was taken into consideration. We are talking about people with learning difficulties, not people with a handicap, as Dorothy-Grace sometimes says. Perhaps she should look to her language.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5140115+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1854E38P164C707191", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26788, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 590.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 590.0, "ID": 26788, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Godman, Trish", "ID": 1854, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Renfrewshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Trish Godman", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Trish Godman: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 600.0, "ContributionID": 707191, "EditedText": "She has changed her mind.", "EditedTextHTML": "She has changed her mind.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5140115+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1901E57P277C707198", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26788, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 590.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 590.0, "ID": 26788, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Allan", "ID": 1901, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Cunninghame North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Allan Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Allan Wilson (Cunninghame North) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 616.0, "ContributionID": 707198, "EditedText": "I always make it to the floor in your period of tenure, Deputy Presiding Officer—it is a coincidence, I am sure. The theme of the programme for government is \"Making it work together\", which is a reference to the partnership between Labour and the Liberal Democrats. I want to stress the partnership approach to delivering the changes that we want in Scotland—partnership between ourselves and the Liberal Democrats delivering legislative change and partnership between the Parliament and civic Scotland working together. An example in the document of the use of a partnership approach is the commendable target to create a network of healthy living centres by 2002. I have a declarable interest, because I am a member of a healthy living centre project involved in social inclusion. The centres will focus on improving health in areas of poverty and deprivation. Healthy living centres address the wider determinants of health, such as social exclusion, mental health, poor access to services and other social and economic aspects of deprivation. Like the one in which I am involved in the Garnock valley, centres have been developed by broad partnerships, which have included health authorities, local authorities, voluntary organisations and local communities. Local communities and the users of the centres are involved in all aspects of the development and delivery of the service, which links in with local economic regeneration programmes, welfare-to-work programmes, education action zones and drug action teams. This wider action agenda, involving public authorities, voluntary and community associations and local commercial and industrial enterprises, makes use of vital partnerships, which must succeed if the other equally commendable public health targets are to be met. The targets to cut the number of deaths from heart disease by half and those from cancer by 20 per cent by 2010 underpin our commitment to those other vital national health service and public health commitments. The healthy living centre initiative delivers £34.5 million of lottery funds to Scottish projects, helping people of all ages to maximise their health and well-being. The initiative will make a major contribution to the Executive's drive to tackle health inequalities and to improve the health of those living in deprived communities. The cornerstone of that initiative, and the theme to which I return, is the partnership between the public and private sectors, between voluntary agencies and communities and between this Parliament and the people. I commend the document to Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "I always make it to the floor in your period of tenure, Deputy Presiding Officer—it is a coincidence, I am sure. The theme of the programme for government is \"Making it work together\", which is a reference to the partnership between Labour and the Liberal Democrats. I want to stress the partnership approach to delivering the changes that we want in Scotland—partnership between ourselves and the Liberal Democrats delivering legislative change and partnership between the Parliament and civic Scotland working together.

An example in the document of the use of a partnership approach is the commendable target to create a network of healthy living centres by 2002. I have a declarable interest, because I am a member of a healthy living centre project involved in social inclusion. The centres will focus on improving health in areas of poverty and deprivation.

Healthy living centres address the wider determinants of health, such as social exclusion, mental health, poor access to services and other social and economic aspects of deprivation. Like the one in which I am involved in the Garnock valley, centres have been developed by broad partnerships, which have included health authorities, local authorities, voluntary organisations and local communities.

Local communities and the users of the centres are involved in all aspects of the development and delivery of the service, which links in with local economic regeneration programmes, welfare-to-work programmes, education action zones and drug action teams. This wider action agenda, involving public authorities, voluntary and community associations and local commercial and industrial enterprises, makes use of vital partnerships, which must succeed if the other equally commendable public health targets are to be met. The targets to cut the number of deaths from heart disease by half and those from cancer by 20 per cent by 2010 underpin our commitment to those other vital national health service and public health commitments.

The healthy living centre initiative delivers £34.5 million of lottery funds to Scottish projects, helping people of all ages to maximise their health and well-being. The initiative will make a major contribution to the Executive's drive to tackle health inequalities and to improve the health of those living in deprived communities. The cornerstone of that initiative, and the theme to which I return, is the partnership between the

public and private sectors, between voluntary agencies and communities and between this Parliament and the people. I commend the document to Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5140115+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C707200", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26788, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 590.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 590.0, "ID": 26788, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 621.0, "ContributionID": 707200, "EditedText": "I remind all members that, in accordance with the Procedures Committee ruling, all occupants of the chair should be addressed as Presiding Officer.", "EditedTextHTML": "I remind all members that, in accordance with the Procedures Committee ruling, all occupants of the chair should be addressed as Presiding Officer.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5140115+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1931E120P189C707212", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26788, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 590.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 590.0, "ID": 26788, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Muldoon, Bristow", "ID": 1931, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Livingston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bristow Muldoon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bristow Muldoon (Livingston) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 649.0, "ContributionID": 707212, "EditedText": "Fergus Ewing cannot be as sure as Mr Gorrie about what is a sure thing and what is not. I welcome the opportunity to speak on the Scottish Executive's programme for government. We should recognise that the Scottish Parliament faces the challenge of building the confidence of the people of Scotland and that there has been a bit of damage to that confidence in the Parliament's first few months. I appeal to members of all parties to start to play a constructive role in shaping the programme of government. One of the encouraging things about Fergus's contribution— something that has been lacking in many speeches—was that he came up with ideas and tried to move the debate forward. While the leader of the Scottish National party's speech was humorous, once the humour has been stripped away it will be found to contain little substance. I encourage the SNP genuinely to welcome the parts of the government programme that it supports and to present its ideas on the areas that it wishes to develop further. One of Mr Salmond's criticisms of the Executive's programme was that it was not original. Why was it not original? Many of the ideas were brought out during the election campaign.", "EditedTextHTML": "Fergus Ewing cannot be as sure as Mr Gorrie about what is a sure thing and what is not.

I welcome the opportunity to speak on the Scottish Executive's programme for government. We should recognise that the Scottish Parliament faces the challenge of building the confidence of the people of Scotland and that there has been a bit of damage to that confidence in the Parliament's first few months. I appeal to members of all parties to start to play a constructive role in shaping the programme of government. One of the encouraging things about Fergus's contribution— something that has been lacking in many speeches—was that he came up with ideas and tried to move the debate forward.

While the leader of the Scottish National party's speech was humorous, once the humour has been stripped away it will be found to contain little substance. I encourage the SNP genuinely to welcome the parts of the government programme that it supports and to present its ideas on the areas that it wishes to develop further.

One of Mr Salmond's criticisms of the Executive's programme was that it was not original. Why was it not original? Many of the ideas were brought out during the election campaign.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5140115+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1931E120P189C707214", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26788, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 590.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 590.0, "ID": 26788, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Muldoon, Bristow", "ID": 1931, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Livingston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bristow Muldoon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bristow Muldoon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 653.0, "ContributionID": 707214, "EditedText": "That is a travesty of the position set out in the Executive programme. Had, by some miracle, Mr McLetchie's party won the election in May, very little of the programme would have been implemented. The programme is being implemented, and it received the support of a larger proportion of the Scottish people than did that of Andrew's party.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is a travesty of the position set out in the Executive programme. Had, by some miracle, Mr McLetchie's party won the election in May, very little of the programme would have been implemented. The programme is being implemented, and it received the support of a larger proportion of the Scottish people than did

that of Andrew's party.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5140115+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1931E120P189C707216", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26788, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 590.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 590.0, "ID": 26788, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Muldoon, Bristow", "ID": 1931, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Livingston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bristow Muldoon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bristow Muldoon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 657.0, "ContributionID": 707216, "EditedText": "Absolutely not. I do not accept that for one minute and I do not think that the people of Scotland would either—hence Mr Harding's party's continued low position in the opinion polls. Mr MacAskill concentrated quite heavily on the subject of fuel taxes, but I have not yet heard what the SNP would like to be done about fuel taxation. By how much does the SNP want fuel taxation to be reduced? How would the SNP pay for the reduction? Is it another of the things that the penny for Scotland would pay for? Is this the elastic penny for Scotland? Mr MacAskill said that the SNP is opposed to certain aspects of the proposed road charging, but he stated in the Transport and the Environment Committee that he is sympathetic to congestion charging in cities. Could the SNP convey that to its colleagues in West Lothian, who are opposed to road charging in cities? Or does the SNP intend to continue its practice of espousing different policies for different audiences? I would like to highlight the concentration of the programme for government on the subject of education. The Parliament has an obligation to the children of Scotland to provide them with the best possible standard of education. It is much to the credit of the Executive that one of its first bills will be an education bill that will aim to raise standards in Scottish education and maintain them at the highest level. The programme sets out areas on which we can make real improvements, particularly in dealing with educational inequalities. I am receiving hints from the Presiding Officer. Because of all the interventions that I have taken, I am curtailing my speech. To conclude, there is much to commend in the programme for government. I repeat my appeal to the Opposition parties: engage with us and try to shape policies that will build a better Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "Absolutely not. I do not accept that for one minute and I do not think that the people of Scotland would either—hence Mr Harding's party's continued low position in the opinion polls.

Mr MacAskill concentrated quite heavily on the subject of fuel taxes, but I have not yet heard what the SNP would like to be done about fuel taxation. By how much does the SNP want fuel taxation to be reduced? How would the SNP pay for the reduction? Is it another of the things that the penny for Scotland would pay for? Is this the elastic penny for Scotland?

Mr MacAskill said that the SNP is opposed to certain aspects of the proposed road charging, but he stated in the Transport and the Environment Committee that he is sympathetic to congestion charging in cities. Could the SNP convey that to its colleagues in West Lothian, who are opposed to road charging in cities? Or does the SNP intend to continue its practice of espousing different policies for different audiences?

I would like to highlight the concentration of the programme for government on the subject of education. The Parliament has an obligation to the children of Scotland to provide them with the best possible standard of education. It is much to the credit of the Executive that one of its first bills will be an education bill that will aim to raise standards in Scottish education and maintain them at the highest level. The programme sets out areas on which we can make real improvements, particularly in dealing with educational inequalities.

I am receiving hints from the Presiding Officer. Because of all the interventions that I have taken, I am curtailing my speech.

To conclude, there is much to commend in the programme for government. I repeat my appeal to the Opposition parties: engage with us and try to shape policies that will build a better Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5140115+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C707218", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26788, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 590.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 590.0, "ID": 26788, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 662.0, "ContributionID": 707218, "EditedText": "Last week, The Guardian had the headline \"Brown builds war chest\". It said that the chancellor has £24 billion to spare before he breaches the Maastricht criteria. Does Tavish Scott agree that the First Minister should suggest to the chancellor that that money be invested in public services?", "EditedTextHTML": "Last week, The Guardian had the headline \"Brown builds war chest\". It said that the chancellor has £24 billion to spare before he breaches the Maastricht criteria. Does Tavish Scott agree that the First Minister should suggest to the chancellor that that money be invested in public services?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5140115+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2223E203P342C707221", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26788, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 590.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 590.0, "ID": 26788, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scott, Tavish", "ID": 2223, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Shetland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tavish Scott", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tavish Scott: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 668.0, "ContributionID": 707221, "EditedText": "David Begg made a very interesting presentation to the Transport and the Environment Committee about how we should take congestion planning forward. It is quite clear that the current policies cannot continue. We must improve public transport so that we can achieve the reductions in pollution and CO2 emissions that we need to achieve now. Offering arguments against that is bizarre and goes against what we need to do. Motorway charging is different from urban charging. The Executive's proposal is certainly right in seeking to find whether there is merit in motorway charging, but there are justified concerns about it. The key questions for the Executive in responding to the consultation are: where the revenue goes; what the objective underpinning the approach is; and, perhaps most important—particularly for local people—what the effect of diverted traffic will be. Those issues need to be addressed when the responses come in, but it is important that we take those ideas forward. Transport is the main issue.", "EditedTextHTML": "David Begg made a very interesting presentation to the Transport and the Environment Committee about how we should take congestion planning forward. It is quite clear that the current policies cannot continue. We must improve public transport so that we can achieve the reductions in pollution and CO2 emissions that we need to achieve now. Offering arguments against that is bizarre and goes against what we need to do.

Motorway charging is different from urban charging. The Executive's proposal is certainly right in seeking to find whether there is merit in motorway charging, but there are justified concerns about it. The key questions for the Executive in responding to the consultation are: where the revenue goes; what the objective underpinning the approach is; and, perhaps most important—particularly for local people—what the effect of diverted traffic will be.

Those issues need to be addressed when the responses come in, but it is important that we take those ideas forward. Transport is the main issue.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5140115+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C707224", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26788, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 590.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 590.0, "ID": 26788, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Finance (Mr Jack McConnell): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 675.0, "ContributionID": 707224, "EditedText": "Will Mr Mundell give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr Mundell give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5140115+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2038E191P344C707228", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26788, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 590.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 590.0, "ID": 26788, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Smith, Iain", "ID": 2038, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Iain Smith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Parliament (Iain Smith) rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 683.0, "ContributionID": 707228, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5140115+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2038E191P344C707232", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26788, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 590.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 590.0, "ID": 26788, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Smith, Iain", "ID": 2038, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Iain Smith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Iain Smith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 691.0, "ContributionID": 707232, "EditedText": "David Mundell is summing up on behalf of the Conservative party. Can he tell us which of the items in the document his party disagrees with?", "EditedTextHTML": "David Mundell is summing up on behalf of the Conservative party. Can he tell us which of the items in the document his party disagrees with?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5140115+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1962E35P56C707233", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26788, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 590.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 590.0, "ID": 26788, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mundell, David", "ID": 1962, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Mundell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David Mundell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 693.0, "ContributionID": 707233, "EditedText": "What our party disagrees with is the list of broken promises over the past two years: tuition fees introduced, hospital waiting lists longer, police numbers down, crime on the increase, class sizes larger, taxes increased by stealth, junior doctors' hours longer, no attempts to tackle the burden of red tape and bureaucracy on small businesses, and no let-up in the crusade against the motorist.", "EditedTextHTML": "What our party disagrees with is the list of broken promises over the past two years: tuition fees introduced, hospital waiting lists longer, police numbers down, crime on the increase, class sizes larger, taxes increased by stealth, junior doctors' hours longer, no attempts to tackle the burden of red tape and bureaucracy on small businesses, and no let-up in the crusade against the motorist.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5140115+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C707236", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26788, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 590.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 590.0, "ID": 26788, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 699.0, "ContributionID": 707236, "EditedText": "I now call John Swinney to wind up for the Scottish National party. You have up to 12 minutes.", "EditedTextHTML": "I now call John Swinney to wind up for the Scottish National party. You have up to 12 minutes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5140115+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C707238", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26788, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 590.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 590.0, "ID": 26788, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Simpson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 704.0, "ContributionID": 707238, "EditedText": "At the outset of this debate, the First Minister asked a question of Mr Salmond that I hope will be addressed. What other Government in the past has produced 150 timetabled promises collected in one document? That is innovative. Please answer the question.", "EditedTextHTML": "At the outset of this debate, the First Minister asked a question of Mr Salmond that I hope will be addressed. What other Government in the past has produced 150 timetabled promises collected in one document? That is innovative. Please answer the question.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5140115+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2140E187P335C707240", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26788, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 590.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 590.0, "ID": 26788, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Rumbles, Mike", "ID": 2140, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Rumbles", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Mike Rumbles (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 708.0, "ContributionID": 707240, "EditedText": "I want to make it unequivocally clear to the Parliament that the Scottish Liberal Democrats are committed to the abolition of student tuition fees—full stop—and that we will all vote that way when appropriate.", "EditedTextHTML": "I want to make it unequivocally clear to the Parliament that the Scottish Liberal Democrats are committed to the abolition of student tuition fees—full stop—and that we will all vote that way when appropriate.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5140115+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C707246", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26788, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 590.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 590.0, "ID": 26788, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 720.0, "ContributionID": 707246, "EditedText": "This debate will conclude at 16:30. I now call the Deputy First Minister to wind up for the Executive.", "EditedTextHTML": "This debate will conclude at 16:30. I now call the Deputy First Minister to wind up for the Executive.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5140115+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C707253", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26788, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 590.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 590.0, "ID": 26788, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 735.0, "ContributionID": 707253, "EditedText": "I support the progress of the University of the Highlands and Islands. Does the minister support it and what will he do to address the £4 million deficit at Inverness college, the lead college in the UHI network?", "EditedTextHTML": "I support the progress of the University of the Highlands and Islands. Does the minister support it and what will he do to address the £4 million deficit at Inverness college, the lead college in the UHI network?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5140115+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C707256", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26788, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 590.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 590.0, "ID": 26788, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 741.0, "ContributionID": 707256, "EditedText": "As has been said, the Scottish National party seems to be incapable of understanding that the partnership is a coalition for the Scottish Parliament. In Westminster, I sit on the Opposition benches, as does Mr Salmond. It is not exactly the great secret of Scottish politics that, after the first Cabinet meeting that the Executive held, the First Minister and I travelled to London together and voted against each other in a debate on disability allowances, which are a Westminster responsibility. I disagreed with the Labour Government's policy on them. There is nothing unconstitutional about that. The important thing is that this Parliament should work in partnership with other parts of the United Kingdom.", "EditedTextHTML": "As has been said, the Scottish National party seems to be incapable of understanding that the partnership is a coalition for the Scottish Parliament. In Westminster, I sit on the Opposition benches, as does Mr Salmond. It is not exactly the great secret of Scottish politics that, after the first Cabinet meeting that the Executive held, the First Minister and I travelled to London together and voted against each other in a debate on disability allowances, which are a Westminster responsibility. I disagreed with the

Labour Government's policy on them. There is nothing unconstitutional about that.

The important thing is that this Parliament should work in partnership with other parts of the United Kingdom.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5140115+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C707258", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26788, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 590.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 590.0, "ID": 26788, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 745.0, "ContributionID": 707258, "EditedText": "There may well be disagreements, which is why we have Cabinet meetings to try to resolve them. Mrs Ewing fails to understand a fundamental constitutional position. Furthermore, we have still not heard which of our pledges the SNP would sign up to. Mr McLetchie, predictably, made reference to the photographs in the document. We did not hear much about an alternative strategy for Scotland. Indeed, his biggest criticism of the Executive was that we were giving priority to legislation on fox hunting. There is no reference to fox hunting in the document, because the measures on fox hunting were proposed by an individual member. The Executive has indicated that there will be a free vote on the principle. Fox hunting is not an issue in the Executive's programme.", "EditedTextHTML": "There may well be disagreements, which is why we have Cabinet meetings to try to resolve them. Mrs Ewing fails to understand a fundamental constitutional position. Furthermore, we have still not heard which of our pledges the SNP would sign up to.

Mr McLetchie, predictably, made reference to the photographs in the document. We did not hear much about an alternative strategy for Scotland. Indeed, his biggest criticism of the Executive was that we were giving priority to legislation on fox hunting. There is no reference to fox hunting in the document, because the measures on fox hunting were proposed by an individual member. The Executive has indicated that there will be a free vote on the principle. Fox hunting is not an issue in the Executive's programme.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5140115+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1888E265P358C707261", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26788, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 590.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 590.0, "ID": 26788, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morgan, Alasdair", "ID": 1888, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Galloway and Upper Nithsdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morgan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alasdair Morgan (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 751.0, "ContributionID": 707261, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5140115+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C707262", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26788, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 590.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 590.0, "ID": 26788, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 753.0, "ContributionID": 707262, "EditedText": "I have taken a number of interventions. I will come back to Mr Morgan later. People have made claims of spin and presentation, but if one examines the programme in detail, it is not about spin and presentation, but about real issues. We have made a pledge on the rough sleepers initiative, mentioned by Keith Harding and Fiona Hyslop. A total of 138 extra hostel places have been or will be provided and, in the first year of the initiative, 1,200 people were taken in. The first evaluation report on the rough sleepers initiative came out relatively recently. It pointed out that the issue was one not only of hostel provision, but of being able to move on to the next stage and provide people with supported tenancies.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have taken a number of interventions. I will come back to Mr Morgan later.

People have made claims of spin and presentation, but if one examines the programme in detail, it is not about spin and presentation, but about real issues. We have made a pledge on the rough sleepers initiative, mentioned by Keith Harding and Fiona Hyslop. A total of 138 extra hostel places have been or will be provided and, in the first year of the initiative, 1,200 people were taken in. The first evaluation report on the rough sleepers initiative came out relatively recently. It pointed out that the issue was one not only of hostel provision, but of being able to move on to the next stage and provide people with supported tenancies.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5140115+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C707264", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26788, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 590.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 590.0, "ID": 26788, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 757.0, "ContributionID": 707264, "EditedText": "I will just finish this point.In response to the evaluation report, Wendy Alexander, the Minister for Communities, has already indicated that we will provide support workers. This is not a question of spin or of presentation—we are taking action. The purpose of this commitment is to tackle real problems with real measures and to be held to account on the timetable that we have set out.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will just finish this point.

In response to the evaluation report, Wendy Alexander, the Minister for Communities, has already indicated that we will provide support workers. This is not a question of spin or of presentation—we are taking action. The purpose of this commitment is to tackle real problems with real measures and to be held to account on the timetable that we have set out.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5140115+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C707267", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26788, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 590.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 590.0, "ID": 26788, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 763.0, "ContributionID": 707267, "EditedText": "The debate on the Government's programme is concluded. The amendment and the motion will be put to the vote at 5 o'clock.", "EditedTextHTML": "The debate on the Government's programme is concluded. The amendment and the motion will be put to the vote at 5 o'clock.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5140115+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C707268", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Time for Reflection", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26789, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 765.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 765.0, "ID": 26789, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 766.0, "ContributionID": 707268, "EditedText": "The next item of business is the debate on motion S1M-131, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, on time for reflection in the chamber. There is an amendment to the motion. It is a very short debate, and I ask members who wish to speak to keep their speeches as brief as possible.", "EditedTextHTML": "The next item of business is the debate on motion S1M-131, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, on time for reflection in the chamber. There is an amendment to the motion. It is a very short debate, and I ask members who wish to speak to keep their speeches as brief as possible.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5140115+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1778E91P257C707276", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Time for Reflection", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26789, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 765.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 765.0, "ID": 26789, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Eadie, Helen", "ID": 1778, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dunfermline East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Helen Eadie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Helen Eadie (Dunfermline East) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 788.0, "ContributionID": 707276, "EditedText": "I support the motion in the name of Tom McCabe and oppose the amendment being proposed by Phil Gallie. I accept the view of Phil Gallie, that Christians have a duty to promote Christianity, but I do not agree with his amendment. My view is based on acceptance and belief, and on the need to value and support all faiths throughout Scotland. When we reflect or pray, our prayers are about asking for wisdom, knowledge, support and encouragement in all that we do to help each other and for Scotland as a whole. That work brings shoulder to shoulder Catholics, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists and members of all the other religions. We need to value and respect all the different cultures and religions that make up the Scotland of today and of tomorrow. Tonight at 6 pm I shall meet Dharmendra Kanani, the new senior officer for Scotland for the Commission for Racial Equality, and I shall take that message to him. If Tom McCabe's motion is agreed to, as I hope it will be, I ask the Parliamentary Bureau to consider including schoolchildren in leading the prayers at least some of the time. I ask that a different child be selected on each occasion, from different schools throughout Scotland. In that way, children of all races and religions will come to accept and understand that we believe in them, and that we value them as the flowers of our future.", "EditedTextHTML": "I support the motion in the name of Tom McCabe and oppose the amendment being proposed by Phil Gallie. I accept the view of Phil Gallie, that Christians have a duty to promote Christianity, but I do not agree with his amendment.

My view is based on acceptance and belief, and on the need to value and support all faiths throughout Scotland. When we reflect or pray, our prayers are about asking for wisdom, knowledge, support and encouragement in all that we do to help each other and for Scotland as a whole. That work brings shoulder to shoulder Catholics, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists and members of all the other religions. We need to value and respect all the different cultures and religions that make up the Scotland of today and of tomorrow. Tonight at 6 pm I shall meet Dharmendra Kanani, the new senior officer for Scotland for the Commission for Racial Equality, and I shall take that message to him.

If Tom McCabe's motion is agreed to, as I hope it will be, I ask the Parliamentary Bureau to consider including schoolchildren in leading the prayers at least some of the time. I ask that a different child be selected on each occasion, from different schools throughout Scotland. In that way, children of all races and religions will come to accept and understand that we believe in them, and that we value them as the flowers of our future.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2188E70P92C707277", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Time for Reflection", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26789, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 765.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 765.0, "ID": 26789, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harper, Robin", "ID": 2188, "PartyName": "Scottish Green Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Green", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robin Harper", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robin Harper (Lothians) (Green): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 791.0, "ContributionID": 707277, "EditedText": "I support the motion. Like other members, I received many letters until it got to the point at which I had to give a standard reply. My suggestion was, and remains, that we should invite people with something to say to speak to us at the commencement of business on Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Thursdays. After those short talks, there should be a period for reflection and, on occasion and where appropriate, a Christian prayer or prayer from another religion, when MSPs can signify their inclusion in any way they see fit. The motion in the name of Tom McCabe is close enough to my original ideas on the subject, and I enthusiastically recommend it to the chamber.", "EditedTextHTML": "I support the motion. Like other members, I received many letters until it got to the point at which I had to give a standard reply. My suggestion was, and remains, that we should invite people with something to say to speak to us at the commencement of business on Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Thursdays. After those short talks, there should be a period for reflection and, on occasion and where appropriate, a Christian prayer or prayer from another religion, when MSPs can signify their inclusion in any way they see fit.

The motion in the name of Tom McCabe is close enough to my original ideas on the subject, and I enthusiastically recommend it to the chamber.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C707278", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Time for Reflection", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26789, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 765.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 765.0, "ID": 26789, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 793.0, "ContributionID": 707278, "EditedText": "Thank you very much. Donald Gorrie, can you manage the same brevity?", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you very much. Donald Gorrie, can you manage the same brevity?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C707282", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Time for Reflection", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26789, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 765.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 765.0, "ID": 26789, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 804.0, "ContributionID": 707282, "EditedText": "I call on Michael Russell to wind up on behalf of the bureau.", "EditedTextHTML": "I call on Michael Russell to wind up on behalf of the bureau.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1888E265P358C707288", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Time for Reflection", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26789, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 765.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 765.0, "ID": 26789, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morgan, Alasdair", "ID": 1888, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Galloway and Upper Nithsdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morgan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alasdair Morgan (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 817.0, "ContributionID": 707288, "EditedText": "Mr McCabe said that it was necessary to recognise those of all faiths and of none. By definition, people who have a faith tend to be more organised than are those who have no faith. Is it the intention of the motion that on occasion, people from non-faith organisations, such as humanists, will be asked along?", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr McCabe said that it was necessary to recognise those of all faiths and of none. By definition, people who have a faith tend to be more organised than are those who have no faith. Is it the intention of the motion that on occasion, people from non-faith organisations, such as humanists, will be asked along?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C707289", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Time for Reflection", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26789, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 765.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 765.0, "ID": 26789, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 819.0, "ContributionID": 707289, "EditedText": "Yes, the Humanist Society of Scotland is on the list of organisations that have been consulted and it will be involved, and that is important.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes, the Humanist Society of Scotland is on the list of organisations that have been consulted and it will be involved, and that is important.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C707290", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Time for Reflection", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26789, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 765.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 765.0, "ID": 26789, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 821.0, "ContributionID": 707290, "EditedText": "Will Mr Russell concede that in my remarks I emphasised tolerance, and my acceptance that everyone in Scotland and the UK has the right to follow their own beliefs? I based my comments on those points.", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr Russell concede that in my remarks I emphasised tolerance, and my acceptance that everyone in Scotland and the UK has the right to follow their own beliefs? I based my comments on those points.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C707294", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Time for Reflection", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26789, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 765.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 765.0, "ID": 26789, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 829.0, "ContributionID": 707294, "EditedText": "Before we come to decision time there are three matters that we must dispose of without debate.", "EditedTextHTML": "Before we come to decision time there are three matters that we must dispose of without debate.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "C707298", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Commonwealth Parliamentary Association", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26790, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 831.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 831.0, "ID": 26790, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 835.0, "ContributionID": 707298, "EditedText": "That the Parliament agrees that the following Orders be approved—", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament agrees that the following Orders be approved—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "C707300", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Commonwealth Parliamentary Association", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26790, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 831.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 831.0, "ID": 26790, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 837.0, "ContributionID": 707300, "EditedText": "The Food Protection (Emergency Prohibitions) (Amnesic Shellfish Poisoning) (Orkney) (Scotland) Order 1999 (SSI 1999/27).—Mr McCabe.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Food Protection (Emergency Prohibitions) (Amnesic Shellfish Poisoning) (Orkney) (Scotland) Order 1999 (SSI 1999/27).—[Mr McCabe.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "C707301", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Audit Bill (Lead Committee) ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26791, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 838.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 838.0, "ID": 26791, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 839.0, "ContributionID": 707301, "EditedText": "Motion moved,", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion moved,

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C707305", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26792, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 841.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 841.0, "ID": 26792, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 846.0, "ContributionID": 707305, "EditedText": "There will be a division.", "EditedTextHTML": "There will be a division.

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" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "C707331", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26792, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 841.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 841.0, "ID": 26792, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 886.0, "ContributionID": 707331, "EditedText": "Time for Reflection will last for a maximum of four minutes;", "EditedTextHTML": "Time for Reflection will last for a maximum of four minutes;

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C707307", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26792, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 841.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 841.0, "ID": 26792, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 849.0, "ContributionID": 707307, "EditedText": "The result of the division is: For 31, Against 65, Abstentions 14.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result of the division is: For 31, Against 65, Abstentions 14.

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Scotland) (SNP)Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Crawford, Bruce JP (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)AGAINST Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)ABSTENTIONS Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)(LD)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Crawford, Bruce JP (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)

AGAINST

Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)

ABSTENTIONS

Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)
(LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)

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" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "C707333", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26792, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 841.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 841.0, "ID": 26792, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 888.0, "ContributionID": 707333, "EditedText": "Parliament in leading Time for Reflection will be issued by the Presiding Officer on advice from the Parliamentary Bureau;", "EditedTextHTML": "Parliament in leading Time for Reflection will be issued by the Presiding Officer on advice from the Parliamentary Bureau;

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C707335", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26792, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 841.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 841.0, "ID": 26792, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 890.0, "ContributionID": 707335, "EditedText": "The fifth question is, that motion S1M-96, in the name of Des McNulty, be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "The fifth question is, that motion S1M-96, in the name of Des McNulty, be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "C707344", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26792, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 841.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 841.0, "ID": 26792, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 901.0, "ContributionID": 707344, "EditedText": "That the Parliament agrees that the Audit Committee is designated as Lead Committee in consideration of the Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament agrees that the Audit Committee is designated as Lead Committee in consideration of the Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2152E53P75C707348", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Clackmannanshire and West Fife (Unemployment) ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26793, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 902.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 902.0, "ID": 26793, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnston, Nick", "ID": 2152, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nick Johnston", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Nick Johnston (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 908.0, "ContributionID": 707348, "EditedText": "I am delighted to have the opportunity to dedicate my first members' motion to highlighting the plight of the communities of west Fife and Clackmannanshire. Clackmannanshire is the smallest unitary authority in the UK and has recently suffered a sequence of job losses. The loss of another 140 jobs with the closure of Patons mill in Alloa is the latest disaster to hit this small, compact and depressed area. Once the hunting grounds of Robert the Bruce, over the past century the wee county and its neighbours have, like the rest of Scotland, experienced a great change in the nature of their industries.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am delighted to have the opportunity to dedicate my first members' motion to highlighting the plight of the communities of west Fife and Clackmannanshire.

Clackmannanshire is the smallest unitary authority in the UK and has recently suffered a sequence of job losses. The loss of another 140 jobs with the closure of Patons mill in Alloa is the latest disaster to hit this small, compact and depressed area. Once the hunting grounds of Robert the Bruce, over the past century the wee county and its neighbours have, like the rest of Scotland, experienced a great change in the nature of their industries.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2207E94P262C707353", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Clackmannanshire and West Fife (Unemployment) ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26793, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 902.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 902.0, "ID": 26793, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Barrie, Scott", "ID": 2207, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dunfermline West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Scott Barrie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Scott Barrie (Dunfermline West) (Lab) rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 918.0, "ContributionID": 707353, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2152E53P75C707354", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Clackmannanshire and West Fife (Unemployment) ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26793, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 902.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 902.0, "ID": 26793, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnston, Nick", "ID": 2152, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nick Johnston", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Johnston: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 920.0, "ContributionID": 707354, "EditedText": "The member is down to speak, and he can do so later. The package promised was for half a million quid, and it is surely not coincidental that it has grown as a result of this debate. I must lodge more motions if that is the sort of aid that can pop out of the Government's pocket. We now know that the package adds up to about £1.5 million, to be given through Forth Valley Enterprise and targeted through the strategic alliance. I promise to raise with the minister the possibility of bringing forward the planning stage for the new Forth crossing, a commitment to the further training of redundant and unemployed workers, and the involvement of the Executive by way of civil service participation in the strategic alliance. All the MPs and MSPs for the area welcome that. These moves are welcome, but against the background of unemployment levels twice the Scottish average and of a demoralised and dispirited local work force, are they enough? In my view, they are not. What Mr McLeish could do, however—at no cost to the Executive, but much to his credit—is initiate within the Executive a co-ordinated approach to the problems of Clackmannanshire and west Fife. We now need concentrated effort from the Executive to improve the transport infrastructure of the area: specifically, the expedition of the new Forth crossing; completion of the upgrading of the A907; a new link from Rosyth to Stirling; a push to reopen the railway between Stirling and Alloa; refinement of the map for assisted area status; and objective 2 status, to give fuller eligibility for European funds. That is not the full extent of my shopping list, but it will do for now because other members want to speak. A full and frank appraisal of the role that Forth Valley Enterprise plays would be productive. There is a rising barrage of criticism in the business community about the role of the local enterprise companies, and I will be asking why the aid is being directed as it is. Clackmannanshire is an ideal candidate for investigation of the roles played by local government, central Government and statutory bodies such as the enterprise companies and the tourist board. I will be asking the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee to take the opportunity to pay close attention to the outcome of this aid and this approach. It is the responsibility of all those bodies to work together to encourage inward investment.", "EditedTextHTML": "The member is down to speak, and he can do so later.

The package promised was for half a million quid, and it is surely not coincidental that it has grown as a result of this debate. I must lodge more motions if that is the sort of aid that can pop out of the Government's pocket.

We now know that the package adds up to about £1.5 million, to be given through Forth Valley Enterprise and targeted through the strategic alliance. I promise to raise with the minister the possibility of bringing forward the planning stage for the new Forth crossing, a commitment to the further training of redundant and unemployed workers, and the involvement of the Executive by way of civil service participation in the strategic alliance. All the MPs and MSPs for the area welcome that.

These moves are welcome, but against the background of unemployment levels twice the Scottish average and of a demoralised and dispirited local work force, are they enough? In my view, they are not. What Mr McLeish could do, however—at no cost to the Executive, but much to his credit—is initiate within the Executive a co-ordinated approach to the problems of Clackmannanshire and west Fife. We now need concentrated effort from the Executive to improve the transport infrastructure of the area: specifically, the expedition of the new Forth crossing; completion of the upgrading of the A907; a new link from Rosyth to Stirling; a push to reopen the railway between Stirling and Alloa; refinement of the map for assisted area status; and objective 2 status, to give fuller eligibility for European funds. That is not the full extent of my shopping list, but it will do for now because other members want to speak.

A full and frank appraisal of the role that Forth Valley Enterprise plays would be productive. There is a rising barrage of criticism in the business community about the role of the local enterprise companies, and I will be asking why the aid is being directed as it is.

Clackmannanshire is an ideal candidate for investigation of the roles played by local government, central Government and statutory bodies such as the enterprise companies and the tourist board. I will be asking the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee to take the opportunity to pay close attention to the outcome of this aid and this approach. It is the responsibility of all those bodies to work together to encourage inward investment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C707358", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Clackmannanshire and West Fife (Unemployment) ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26793, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 902.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 902.0, "ID": 26793, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ms Patricia Ferguson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 929.0, "ContributionID": 707358, "EditedText": "Several members are indicating that they wish to speak. It is going to be impossible to accommodate everyone. I ask those who are called to keep their comments to a minimum so that we can squeeze in as many members as possible.", "EditedTextHTML": "Several members are indicating that they wish to speak. It is going to be impossible to accommodate everyone. I ask those who are called to keep their comments to a minimum so that we can squeeze in as many members as possible.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C707359", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Clackmannanshire and West Fife (Unemployment) ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26793, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 902.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 902.0, "ID": 26793, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr George Reid (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 932.0, "ContributionID": 707359, "EditedText": "As a Clackmannanshire man, I can say that the Executive has made a good start in addressing the economic crisis in the wee county. I will confine my remarks to six matters, notice of which I have given the minister. Although the additional funding is extremely welcome, is the minister aware that the strategic alliance action plan contains a £34 million programme, of which less than £10 million has secured commitment? Does he agree that there is therefore a demonstrable case for further funding from the Executive? Can he assure the chamber that such funding is forthcoming? The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning has heard of, and often seen, many of the innovative projects that are being developed in Clackmannanshire, in particular, the SMART village in Alloa and the ambitious Clackmannanshire innovation project. Does he agree that those are nationally significant projects, which showcase Scotland as a leader in information technology and the knowledge economy? If that is recognised by the minister, will it also be recognised in Scottish Enterprise's funding criteria? The minister has said that only 0.14 per cent of national regional selective assistance has gone into Clackmannanshire's economy; how can that be squared with Clackmannanshire's position as Scotland's unemployment black spot? Surely, as there is a need for an urgent review of Scottish manufacturing industry and the way in which it is supported, that should be considered further. Will the minister consider a manufacturing strategy, and an industrial diversification strategy, particularly for Alloa, where the decline of manufacturing has had a devastating effect on local communities? European funds are clearly crucial to the economy. Can the minister confirm that the decisions by the Cabinet on Tuesday affirm support for objective 2 status for the whole of Clackmannanshire, and that that recommendation will be followed through with discussions in the UK Cabinet? As there has been no inward investment in Clackmannanshire in the past 30 years, can the minister confirm that Locate in Scotland now sees Clackmannanshire as a priority, and that its newly appointed director, David Macdonald, will make an urgent visit there? It is perfectly clear that good transport infrastructure and strategy is a critical element of a sustainable economy. Is the minister aware that Clackmannanshire is the only local authority area in Scotland that does not receive central Government subsidy for rail links and trunk road maintenance? Will he ensure that there is proper joined-up government by convincing his transport colleague, Sarah Boyack, to give Clackmannanshire priority?", "EditedTextHTML": "As a Clackmannanshire man, I can say that the Executive has made a good start in addressing the economic crisis in the wee county. I will confine my remarks to six matters, notice of which I have given the minister.

Although the additional funding is extremely welcome, is the minister aware that the strategic alliance action plan contains a £34 million programme, of which less than £10 million has secured commitment? Does he agree that there is therefore a demonstrable case for further funding from the Executive? Can he assure the chamber that such funding is forthcoming?

The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning has heard of, and often seen, many of the innovative projects that are being developed in Clackmannanshire, in particular, the SMART village in Alloa and the ambitious Clackmannanshire innovation project. Does he agree that those are nationally significant projects, which showcase Scotland as a leader in information technology and the knowledge economy? If that is recognised by the minister, will it also be recognised in Scottish Enterprise's funding criteria?

The minister has said that only 0.14 per cent of national regional selective assistance has gone into Clackmannanshire's economy; how can that be squared with Clackmannanshire's position as Scotland's unemployment black spot? Surely, as there is a need for an urgent review of Scottish manufacturing industry and the way in which it is supported, that should be considered further. Will the minister consider a manufacturing strategy, and an industrial diversification strategy, particularly for Alloa, where the decline of manufacturing has had a devastating effect on local communities?

European funds are clearly crucial to the economy. Can the minister confirm that the decisions by the Cabinet on Tuesday affirm support for objective 2 status for the whole of Clackmannanshire, and that that recommendation will be followed through with discussions in the UK Cabinet?

As there has been no inward investment in Clackmannanshire in the past 30 years, can the minister confirm that Locate in Scotland now sees Clackmannanshire as a priority, and that its newly appointed director, David Macdonald, will make an urgent visit there?

It is perfectly clear that good transport infrastructure and strategy is a critical element of a sustainable economy. Is the minister aware that Clackmannanshire is the only local authority area in Scotland that does not receive central Government subsidy for rail links and trunk road maintenance? Will he ensure that there is proper joined-up government by convincing his transport colleague, Sarah Boyack, to give

Clackmannanshire priority?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C707364", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Clackmannanshire and West Fife (Unemployment) ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26793, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 902.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 902.0, "ID": 26793, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 944.0, "ContributionID": 707364, "EditedText": "I call Brian Monteith as the last speaker before the minister sums up on behalf of the Executive.", "EditedTextHTML": "I call Brian Monteith as the last speaker before the minister sums up on behalf of the Executive.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C707372", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Clackmannanshire and West Fife (Unemployment) ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26793, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 902.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 902.0, "ID": 26793, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 962.0, "ContributionID": 707372, "EditedText": "Before closing this evening's business, I have to state for the record that because of a technical difficulty with the voting system, there are some amendments to the votes. On amendment SM-127.1, to the Executive's motion on the programme for government, the result was previously recorded as: For 31, Against 65, Abstentions 14. The number against must now be amended to 66. On motion SM-127, the previous figures were: For 65, Against 46, Abstentions 0. The number for must now be amended to 66. On amendment SM-131.1, to the motion on time for reflection, the votes were previously recorded as: For 9, Against 99, Abstentions 3. The number against must now be amended to 100. On the substantive motion SM-131, the results were previously recorded as: For 91, Against 7, Abstentions 13. The number for must now be amended to 92. I thank members for bearing with me.", "EditedTextHTML": "Before closing this evening's business, I have to state for the record that because of a technical difficulty with the voting system, there are some amendments to the votes.

On amendment SM-127.1, to the Executive's motion on the programme for government, the result was previously recorded as: For 31, Against 65, Abstentions 14. The number against must now be amended to 66.

On motion SM-127, the previous figures were: For 65, Against 46, Abstentions 0. The number for must now be amended to 66.

On amendment SM-131.1, to the motion on time for reflection, the votes were previously recorded as: For 9, Against 99, Abstentions 3. The number against must now be amended to 100.

On the substantive motion SM-131, the results were previously recorded as: For 91, Against 7, Abstentions 13. The number for must now be amended to 92.

I thank members for bearing with me.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C706918", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Alex Salmond (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 13.0, "ContributionID": 706918, "EditedText": "On the unity of the coalition—and the attack on poverty—I am sure that the First Minister will have noticed that the Liberal candidate in Hamilton South, Marilyne MacLaren, was quoted yesterday as saying that she would vigorously oppose the Labour Government's attack on the poor and vulnerable in Hamilton. What was she talking about, if the coalition is unified and the Government is attacking poverty?", "EditedTextHTML": "On the unity of the coalition—and the attack on poverty—I am sure that the First Minister will have noticed that the Liberal candidate in Hamilton South, Marilyne MacLaren, was quoted yesterday as saying that she would vigorously oppose the Labour Government's attack on the poor and vulnerable in Hamilton. What was she talking about, if the coalition is unified and the Government is attacking poverty?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C706919", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 15.0, "ContributionID": 706919, "EditedText": "The Liberal candidate in Hamilton will be enormously flattered that Mr Salmond has been sitting at the back of her press conferences, taking notes. Laughter. That is probably a substitute for sitting up through the night, looking at Ceefax; it is a nice extension of night-time activity, and I congratulate him on it. Mr Salmond makes an assertion, and one would have to know a good deal more about it. I will be coming to poverty in a moment, but we have a great deal that we can stand by and push as the policies and the template for the future. I want to tackle poverty, lack of opportunity and unemployment. The only question that matters about this document is whether the programme passes this test: does it have the urgency and commitment that Scotland deserves? It has got timings—that is important. It is not just a continuous text of aspirations. It says, \"This is what we want to do; this is when we want to do it.\" Any member may quarrel with individual items in the programme, but I remind the Parliament of some of them: a drugs enforcement agency by June 2000; the doubling of witness support schemes by October 1999; legislation this year to help adults who are, sadly, incapable of helping themselves; a nursery place for every three-year-old by 2002; 100,000 out-of-school care places by 2003; 5,000 classroom assistants in place by 2002; 100 major school developments completed by 2003; class sizes in primaries 1, 2 and 3 reduced to 30 or fewer by August 2001; a health service appointments system that allows the patient to leave a general practitioner's surgery with a consultant's appointment in their pocket—in place and wired up by 2002; an additional 80 one- stop clinics by 2002; and eight new hospital developments by 2003. Those measures are not insignificant; they are precise, ordered and timetabled, and they are relevant to the effort to unlock opportunity and to raise the quality of life in Scotland. To imply in the amendment that the measures are not relevant to that effort, or are ill-considered trifles, is a total deception. The measures are the promises that the partnership has come together to deliver. We believe in those promises and believe that they will greatly help the people of Scotland. Managers of great enterprises tell us that objectives should be SMART—specific, measurable, achievable, relevant and timed. That is our aim, too, in government; it is the mark of our programme. No doubt Mr Salmond or one of his followers will object on the basis that that is importing efficiency standards from the private sector, just as they object to partnership with private money. I understand from the broadcasts this morning that Mr Salmond intends to major on public-private partnerships. He certainly knows an auld sang when he hears one. I repeat and underline that this Government wants the hospitals and the schools that the patients, the pupils and the teachers deserve. We have no intention of letting his ideological hang-ups interfere with progress. A key commitment is the attack on poverty— social inclusion and the social justice agenda. Much in the pledges in this document is relevant to that attack. We have to move on all fronts, as the social justice agenda is not some narrow field of activity; we all have to join in. We have also to co-operate with the policies of the UK Government and work together for common aims.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Liberal candidate in Hamilton will be enormously flattered that Mr Salmond has been sitting at the back of her press conferences, taking notes. [Laughter.] That is probably a substitute for sitting up through the night, looking at Ceefax; it is a nice extension of night-time activity, and I congratulate him on it.

Mr Salmond makes an assertion, and one would have to know a good deal more about it. I will be coming to poverty in a moment, but we have a great deal that we can stand by and push as the policies and the template for the future. I want to tackle poverty, lack of opportunity and unemployment. The only question that matters about this document is whether the programme passes this test: does it have the urgency and commitment that Scotland deserves?

It has got timings—that is important. It is not just a continuous text of aspirations. It says, \"This is what we want to do; this is when we want to do it.\" Any member may quarrel with individual items in the programme, but I remind the Parliament of some of them: a drugs enforcement agency by June 2000; the doubling of witness support schemes by October 1999; legislation this year to help adults who are, sadly, incapable of helping themselves; a nursery place for every three-year-old by 2002; 100,000 out-of-school care places by 2003; 5,000 classroom assistants in place by 2002; 100 major school developments completed by 2003; class sizes in primaries 1, 2 and 3 reduced to 30 or fewer by August 2001; a health service appointments system that allows the patient to leave a general practitioner's surgery with a consultant's appointment in their pocket—in place and wired up by 2002; an additional 80 one- stop clinics by 2002; and eight new hospital developments by 2003.

Those measures are not insignificant; they are precise, ordered and timetabled, and they are relevant to the effort to unlock opportunity and to raise the quality of life in Scotland. To imply in the amendment that the measures are not relevant to that effort, or are ill-considered trifles, is a total deception. The measures are the promises that the partnership has come together to deliver. We believe in those promises and believe that they will greatly help the people of Scotland.

Managers of great enterprises tell us that objectives should be SMART—specific, measurable, achievable, relevant and timed. That is our aim, too, in government; it is the mark of our programme. No doubt Mr Salmond or one of his followers will object on the basis that that is importing efficiency standards from the private sector, just as they object to partnership with private money.

I understand from the broadcasts this morning that Mr Salmond intends to major on public-private partnerships. He certainly knows an auld sang when he hears one. I repeat and underline that this Government wants the hospitals and the schools that the patients, the pupils and the teachers deserve. We have no intention of letting his ideological hang-ups interfere with progress.

A key commitment is the attack on poverty— social inclusion and the social justice agenda. Much in the pledges in this document is relevant to that attack. We have to move on all fronts, as the social justice agenda is not some narrow field of activity; we all have to join in. We have also to co-operate with the policies of the UK Government and work together for common aims.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C706933", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Alex Salmond (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 44.0, "ContributionID": 706933, "EditedText": "I have pleasure in moving the amendment that seems to have irritated the First Minister so much. The First Minister offered us some quotes from The Sun, I thought that I might reply with some quotes from the Daily Record. On 29 July 1999, it said: \"First Minister Donald Dewar took the unprecedented step yesterday of publicly backing his spin doctor David Whitton\". Well, no great split there, rather commendable unity in the Government ranks. However, what he was backing David Whitton on was his description of the rest of the ministerial team as \"unproven and unqualified\". As I understand it, the Daily Record has some degree of certainty about Labour party sources. At the invitation of the First Minister, I was also looking at \"Making it work together\". I was trying to work out what the document reminded me of—it is rather like one of those lifestyle supplements that come with the Sunday newspapers. There are some worrying messages in the document, particularly for the minor partners in the coalition. Yesterday, a member of the Executive described it to me as a tabloid document. I suppose that is right because almost one third of the document is pictures. There are some good pictures of various members of the unproven and unqualified ministerial team going about their business, looking vigorous. However, when we come to the pictures of theLiberal Democrat members of the coalition, things start to get rather different. There is a picture of the Deputy First Minister getting nabbed by the polis. Strangely enough, while the pictures of the policemen concerned are entirely in focus, the Deputy First Minister's picture is totally out of focus. Considering the stick he has had and how he has been hung out to dry over the Ruddle case in the last two weeks, that is fairly good symbolism. Just in case that picture was a mistake—the wrong photographer or something—I turned to the picture of the other member of the Liberal Democrat party in the coalition Government. Mr Finnie's picture is not simply out of focus—the left- hand side of his body is disappearing altogether. I turn again to the Daily Record—this time to its website, which had the pre-release of the Government's programme. I find, under the heading, \"Labour Take the Pledge\", that the ministerial commitments for every minister are listed with the exception of those of the Minister for Rural Affairs, who has disappeared altogether.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have pleasure in moving the amendment that seems to have irritated the First Minister so much.

The First Minister offered us some quotes from The Sun, I thought that I might reply with some quotes from the Daily Record. On 29 July 1999, it said:

\"First Minister Donald Dewar took the unprecedented step yesterday of publicly backing his spin doctor David Whitton\".

Well, no great split there, rather commendable unity in the Government ranks. However, what he was backing David Whitton on was his description of the rest of the ministerial team as \"unproven and unqualified\". As I understand it, the Daily Record has some degree of certainty about Labour party sources.

At the invitation of the First Minister, I was also looking at \"Making it work together\". I was trying to work out what the document reminded me of—it is rather like one of those lifestyle supplements that come with the Sunday newspapers.

There are some worrying messages in the document, particularly for the minor partners in the coalition. Yesterday, a member of the Executive described it to me as a tabloid document. I suppose that is right because almost one third of the document is pictures. There are some good pictures of various members of the unproven and unqualified ministerial team going about their business, looking vigorous.

However, when we come to the pictures of the

Liberal Democrat members of the coalition, things start to get rather different. There is a picture of the Deputy First Minister getting nabbed by the polis. Strangely enough, while the pictures of the policemen concerned are entirely in focus, the Deputy First Minister's picture is totally out of focus. Considering the stick he has had and how he has been hung out to dry over the Ruddle case in the last two weeks, that is fairly good symbolism.

Just in case that picture was a mistake—the wrong photographer or something—I turned to the picture of the other member of the Liberal Democrat party in the coalition Government. Mr Finnie's picture is not simply out of focus—the left- hand side of his body is disappearing altogether.

I turn again to the Daily Record—this time to its website, which had the pre-release of the Government's programme. I find, under the heading, \"Labour Take the Pledge\", that the ministerial commitments for every minister are listed with the exception of those of the Minister for Rural Affairs, who has disappeared altogether.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C706935", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 48.0, "ContributionID": 706935, "EditedText": "I know that the press benches will have noted that further attack on the Daily Record from Liberal sources. I heard the earnest pleas of two Highland MSPs on the radio a couple of days ago. I can see one of them, Mr Farquhar Munro, up there. He was very eloquent in saying that this Parliament had to produce for the Highlands and Islands. He said that there were already signs that the Highlands and Islands were being neglected by the Parliament. I thought that there was a lot in what he was saying and that answers would have to be given. I thought to myself, if only there were a Liberal Minister for Rural Affairs who could respond to those grievances. There is some schizophrenia as far as the relationship between the Liberal Democrats and the Executive is concerned. I want to demonstrate a few things today. For a First Minister who has made a political career— admirably in my view—of being adverse to spin, presentation and public relations hype, the document represents something of a change of direction. The document does not just represent spin; it represents re-spin. Every serious pledge in the document is a recycled pledge from previous statements. Let us see how far back we can go in terms of the 10 key pledges. The first pledge is on modern apprenticeships. Many of the pledges contain positive parts that should be considered constructively. However, I resent the fact that this document, published at public expense, is being presented as novel, exciting, new and earth- shattering, when every single major pledge in it has been made before—often as much as two years before. I see the First Minister is poised, so perhaps I should let him in at this stage.", "EditedTextHTML": "I know that the press benches will have noted that further attack on the Daily Record from Liberal sources.

I heard the earnest pleas of two Highland MSPs on the radio a couple of days ago. I can see one of them, Mr Farquhar Munro, up there. He was very eloquent in saying that this Parliament had to produce for the Highlands and Islands. He said that there were already signs that the Highlands and Islands were being neglected by the Parliament. I thought that there was a lot in what he was saying and that answers would have to be given. I thought to myself, if only there were a Liberal Minister for Rural Affairs who could respond to those grievances. There is some schizophrenia as far as the relationship between the Liberal Democrats and the Executive is concerned.

I want to demonstrate a few things today. For a First Minister who has made a political career— admirably in my view—of being adverse to spin, presentation and public relations hype, the document represents something of a change of direction. The document does not just represent spin; it represents re-spin. Every serious pledge in the document is a recycled pledge from previous statements.

Let us see how far back we can go in terms of the 10 key pledges. The first pledge is on modern apprenticeships. Many of the pledges contain positive parts that should be considered constructively. However, I resent the fact that this document, published at public expense, is being

presented as novel, exciting, new and earth- shattering, when every single major pledge in it has been made before—often as much as two years before. I see the First Minister is poised, so perhaps I should let him in at this stage.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C706938", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 54.0, "ContributionID": 706938, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C706944", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 66.0, "ContributionID": 706944, "EditedText": "On a point of order. Is this constant propaganda to boost the faltering circulation of the Daily Record? Laughter.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. Is this constant propaganda to boost the faltering circulation of the Daily Record? [Laughter.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C706946", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 70.0, "ContributionID": 706946, "EditedText": "That is an amazing transformation: only yesterday David McLetchie was trying to curry favour with them. However, Presiding Officer, I know that the Daily Record is an impeccable source, as you have enunciated over the past few days. According to the Daily Record, the hospital building programme is the very centrepiece of Labour's commitments. Let us have a look at that hospital building programme. It sounds quite impressive. There are to be eight new hospitals; everybody welcomes that—we want new hospitals built. But let us look in some detail at the hospitals that we are talking about. Seven out of the eight were approved in 1998 or before. The one exception is the Aberdeen children's hospital, which still awaits approval as it will be funded by the proceeds—as we know in the north-east—of the land deal. Of the other seven hospitals, four will be privatised hospitals under the private finance initiative. The first of those four is the Edinburgh royal infirmary, costing £180 million. The outline business case was approved by Ian Lang in November 1994, and the invitation to tender was approved by Michael Forsyth in January 1996. The contract was signed by Donald Dewar. Second is Hairmyres hospital in East Kilbride, costing £67 million. The outline business case was approved by Ian Lang in March 1994, and the invitation to tender was approved by Michael Forsyth in August 1995. The contract was signed by Donald Dewar. Third is the Law hospital in Wishaw, costing £100 million. The outline business case was approved by—wait for it—Ian Lang in March 1994, and the invitation to tender was approved by Michael Forsyth in November 1995. The contract was signed by Donald Dewar. Fourth is the East Ayrshire community hospital at Cumnock, costing £9 million. However, there is a change: both the outline business case and the invitation to tender were approved by Michael Forsyth in December 1995. The contract was signed by Donald Dewar. The centrepiece of the policy programme is not just old policy—it is not even Labour policy. A centrepiece that is being trumpeted as a major change in the policy programme for Scotland is actually the Tory programme revisited. Over the summer, there has been speculation about who is pulling the Scottish Executive's strings. Is it John Reid? Is it Brian Wilson? No, it is Lord Forsyth, who is still here, pulling the strings of the programme's centrepiece. I remember The Scotsman debate with the First Minister earlier this year. Andrew Neil asked a question that we will call the Andrew Neil question: why should Mr McLetchie be the only person to try to curry favour with the press? Mr Neil asked the First Minister—the then Secretary of State for Scotland—what he would be able to do as First Minister that he could not do as secretary of state. Answer came there none. The document gives the impression that the entire Executive cannot think of an answer to the question. I want to contrast the PR spin, the hype and the reissuing of policies in the document with what is actually happening in the Scottish economy and social life. The First Minister gave us a rosy picture of a series of job announcements over the past two weeks, which he is entitled to do. However, he missed out the closure of the Continental Tyres factory that was announced over the same time period. He missed out the fact that entire major industries such as tourism, agriculture, the manufacturing sector and the engineering sector are in serious trouble. Those industries are in trouble because of common causes that are outwith the responsibilities of the Executive. However, the Executive is not even prepared to face such problems by articulating any argument that might save those industries, which is why the First Minister dodged John Swinney's question about whether the economy was overheating. We have had debates in Parliament in which ministers could not say whether petrol prices were a factor in the downturn in tourism this year. My extensive research over the summer tells me that both petrol prices and the strength of sterling have been factors in the fortune of the tourism industry this year. Mr Finnie, for the first time in many years, the agriculture industry is suffering a general recession because of a 20 per cent appreciation in the value of sterling. The SNP knows that the Parliament's powers do not extend to legislating on some of those issues. However, this party—and the public—expect an articulation of a Scottish point of view from a Scottish Executive that should be examining the priorities of the Scottish economy. Everyone salutes measures to tackle poverty. I supported the minimum wage. Although I disagreed about the level at which the wage should be set, I believed that the measure would make a major contribution.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is an amazing transformation: only yesterday David McLetchie was trying to curry favour with them. However, Presiding Officer, I know that the Daily Record is an impeccable source, as you have enunciated over the past few days. According to the Daily Record, the hospital building programme is the very centrepiece of Labour's commitments.

Let us have a look at that hospital building programme. It sounds quite impressive. There are to be eight new hospitals; everybody welcomes that—we want new hospitals built. But let us look in some detail at the hospitals that we are talking about. Seven out of the eight were approved in 1998 or before. The one exception is the Aberdeen children's hospital, which still awaits approval as it will be funded by the proceeds—as we know in the north-east—of the land deal. Of the other seven hospitals, four will be privatised hospitals under the private finance initiative.

The first of those four is the Edinburgh royal infirmary, costing £180 million. The outline business case was approved by Ian Lang in November 1994, and the invitation to tender was approved by Michael Forsyth in January 1996. The contract was signed by Donald Dewar.

Second is Hairmyres hospital in East Kilbride, costing £67 million. The outline business case was approved by Ian Lang in March 1994, and the invitation to tender was approved by Michael Forsyth in August 1995. The contract was signed by Donald Dewar.

Third is the Law hospital in Wishaw, costing £100 million. The outline business case was approved by—wait for it—Ian Lang in March 1994, and the invitation to tender was approved by Michael Forsyth in November 1995. The contract was signed by Donald Dewar.

Fourth is the East Ayrshire community hospital at Cumnock, costing £9 million. However, there is a change: both the outline business case and the invitation to tender were approved by Michael Forsyth in December 1995. The contract was signed by Donald Dewar.

The centrepiece of the policy programme is not just old policy—it is not even Labour policy. A centrepiece that is being trumpeted as a major change in the policy programme for Scotland is actually the Tory programme revisited. Over the summer, there has been speculation about who is pulling the Scottish Executive's strings. Is it John Reid? Is it Brian Wilson? No, it is Lord Forsyth, who is still here, pulling the strings of the programme's centrepiece.

I remember The Scotsman debate with the First Minister earlier this year. Andrew Neil asked a

question that we will call the Andrew Neil question: why should Mr McLetchie be the only person to try to curry favour with the press? Mr Neil asked the First Minister—the then Secretary of State for Scotland—what he would be able to do as First Minister that he could not do as secretary of state. Answer came there none. The document gives the impression that the entire Executive cannot think of an answer to the question.

I want to contrast the PR spin, the hype and the reissuing of policies in the document with what is actually happening in the Scottish economy and social life. The First Minister gave us a rosy picture of a series of job announcements over the past two weeks, which he is entitled to do. However, he missed out the closure of the Continental Tyres factory that was announced over the same time period. He missed out the fact that entire major industries such as tourism, agriculture, the manufacturing sector and the engineering sector are in serious trouble. Those industries are in trouble because of common causes that are outwith the responsibilities of the Executive. However, the Executive is not even prepared to face such problems by articulating any argument that might save those industries, which is why the First Minister dodged John Swinney's question about whether the economy was overheating.

We have had debates in Parliament in which ministers could not say whether petrol prices were a factor in the downturn in tourism this year. My extensive research over the summer tells me that both petrol prices and the strength of sterling have been factors in the fortune of the tourism industry this year. Mr Finnie, for the first time in many years, the agriculture industry is suffering a general recession because of a 20 per cent appreciation in the value of sterling.

The SNP knows that the Parliament's powers do not extend to legislating on some of those issues. However, this party—and the public—expect an articulation of a Scottish point of view from a Scottish Executive that should be examining the priorities of the Scottish economy.

Everyone salutes measures to tackle poverty. I supported the minimum wage. Although I disagreed about the level at which the wage should be set, I believed that the measure would make a major contribution.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C706950", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 78.0, "ContributionID": 706950, "EditedText": "Of course.", "EditedTextHTML": "Of course.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706954", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 86.0, "ContributionID": 706954, "EditedText": "That is true. However, I have been kind and have not interrupted Mr Salmond in mid-flow, even though he has gone well over the time that we agreed. The First Minister did the same, which is why I have been very generous. Mr Salmond should now come to a close.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is true. However, I have been kind and have not interrupted Mr Salmond in mid-flow, even though he has gone well over the time that we agreed. The First Minister did the same, which is why I have been very generous. Mr Salmond should now come to a close.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C706958", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 95.0, "ContributionID": 706958, "EditedText": "Under our Government, we transformed the Scottish economy. Laughter. We gave new life, new industries and new jobs to areas that were, frankly, going down the drain. One fine example is the accomplishments of Lanarkshire Development Agency, which has transformed towns such as Hamilton and Airdrie and many others in that area and brought new life, jobs and hopes. I am proud of our accomplishments in turning round Scotland's economy and making Scotland one of the fastest growing and most prosperous parts of the United Kingdom, which it became after 18 years of Conservative government. This is a relaunch. As Conservatives know from bitter experience, relaunches are a sure sign of trouble, but this relaunch has come early in the life of this Administration. There is nothing new in the document—it is as much a rehash as it is a relaunch.", "EditedTextHTML": "Under our Government, we transformed the Scottish economy. [Laughter.] We gave new life, new industries and new jobs to areas that were, frankly, going down the drain. One fine example is the accomplishments of Lanarkshire Development Agency, which has transformed towns such as Hamilton and Airdrie and many others in that area and brought new life, jobs and hopes. I am proud of our accomplishments in turning round Scotland's economy and making Scotland one of the fastest growing and most prosperous parts of the United Kingdom, which it became after 18 years of Conservative government.

This is a relaunch. As Conservatives know from bitter experience, relaunches are a sure sign of trouble, but this relaunch has come early in the life of this Administration. There is nothing new in the document—it is as much a rehash as it is a relaunch.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C706961", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon (Argyll and Bute) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 101.0, "ContributionID": 706961, "EditedText": "Does David McLetchie not remember the Tory record on tax? The Tories gave guarantees that theirs was the party of low taxation and that no tax rises would be introduced after the 1992 election, yet 22 tax rises were introduced by the Tory Government. He has a short memory indeed pre-1997.", "EditedTextHTML": "Does David McLetchie not remember the Tory record on tax? The Tories gave guarantees that theirs was the party of low taxation and that no tax rises would be introduced after the 1992 election, yet 22 tax rises were introduced by the Tory Government. He has a short memory indeed pre-1997.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C706962", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 103.0, "ContributionID": 706962, "EditedText": "I have a good memory because by the same criteria that George Lyon uses to tabulate 22 tax rises, I can tell him that there were 25 tax cuts during that same period of administration and, over that period, the proportion of gross domestic product taken in taxation was falling. As the Prime Minister acknowledged in the House of Commons a few months ago, the tax burden under Labour is rising, not falling. It is interesting that Mr Lyon introduced the subject of taxes. Labour promised lower taxes. As the Prime Minister acknowledged in the House of Commons, the overall tax burden has gone up. Labour has introduced an array of stealth taxes, which have added some £1,500 to the tax bill of every taxpaying household in Scotland over the past two years. The programme offers nothing to tackle the issues facing Scotland. On top of the stealth taxes that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has already introduced for the UK, the programme confirms the Scottish Executive's intention to introduce new stealth taxes solely for Scots—toll taxes to travel on our motorways, to enter our cities and to park cars at our places of work. Those are new tax burdens to be introduced by Labour and Labour councils. They will damage the competitiveness of Scottish businesses and will hit hardest the most vulnerable households. The programme confirms the Executive's failure to address what the real priorities should be to meet the crisis in rural Scotland. That part of the document is stuffed with platitudes and offers no encouragement to those living in the countryside. It shows that the Scottish Executive's priority is land reform—a bureaucratic nightmare that will deter investment and do nothing to help those struggling to make a living in the countryside. As long as the welfare of foxes is apparently a higher priority than the welfare of people who live and work in rural Scotland, those people will view the Executive and Parliament with contempt.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have a good memory because by the same criteria that George Lyon uses to tabulate 22 tax rises, I can tell him that there were 25 tax cuts during that same period of administration and, over that period, the proportion of gross domestic product taken in taxation was falling. As the Prime Minister acknowledged in the House of Commons a few months ago, the tax burden under Labour is rising, not falling.

It is interesting that Mr Lyon introduced the subject of taxes. Labour promised lower taxes. As the Prime Minister acknowledged in the House of Commons, the overall tax burden has gone up. Labour has introduced an array of stealth taxes, which have added some £1,500 to the tax bill of every taxpaying household in Scotland over the past two years.

The programme offers nothing to tackle the issues facing Scotland. On top of the stealth taxes that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has already introduced for the UK, the programme confirms the Scottish Executive's intention to introduce new stealth taxes solely for Scots—toll taxes to travel on our motorways, to enter our cities and to park cars at our places of work. Those are new tax burdens to be introduced by Labour and Labour councils. They will damage the competitiveness of Scottish businesses and will hit hardest the most vulnerable households.

The programme confirms the Executive's failure to address what the real priorities should be to meet the crisis in rural Scotland. That part of the document is stuffed with platitudes and offers no encouragement to those living in the countryside. It shows that the Scottish Executive's priority is land reform—a bureaucratic nightmare that will deter investment and do nothing to help those struggling to make a living in the countryside. As long as the welfare of foxes is apparently a higher priority than the welfare of people who live and work in rural Scotland, those people will view the Executive and Parliament with contempt.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C706970", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 119.0, "ContributionID": 706970, "EditedText": "In terms of those who represent the rural economy—", "EditedTextHTML": "In terms of those who represent the rural economy—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C706972", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 123.0, "ContributionID": 706972, "EditedText": "Does not Mr McLetchie agree that the Conservatives did more to destroy the rural economy through their mishandling of and failure to address the problems of BSE?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does not Mr McLetchie agree that the Conservatives did more to destroy the rural economy through their mishandling of and failure to address the problems of BSE?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C706974", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 127.0, "ContributionID": 706974, "EditedText": "That is the reason why the rural economy is in such a bad state today. The Conservative party created the problem.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is the reason why the rural economy is in such a bad state today. The Conservative party created the problem.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C706975", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 129.0, "ContributionID": 706975, "EditedText": "NFU traitor.", "EditedTextHTML": "NFU traitor.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C706976", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 131.0, "ContributionID": 706976, "EditedText": "I missed the last of Mr Lyon's remarks because of the synchronised sycophancy of his colleagues. When a real public health problem arose, as we discussed last week—", "EditedTextHTML": "I missed the last of Mr Lyon's remarks because of the synchronised sycophancy of his colleagues.

When a real public health problem arose, as we discussed last week—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C706982", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 143.0, "ContributionID": 706982, "EditedText": "I have been instructed to bring my remarks to a close, but I will be happy to give way to the member on another occasion. Given the programme's lack of references to the Liberal Democrats' policies, it must be an embarrassment to them. The document fails to mention the Liberal Democrats' supposed commitments to abolish tuition fees, restore free eye and dental checks, or stop the use of the private finance initiative. What about getting rid of the beef-on-the-bone ban, Mr Lyon? Or ending tolls on the Skye bridge, Mr Munro? I hope that Liberal Democrat members who support the coalition noted that their PFI policy was subject to particularly withering scorn from the First Minister in his opening speech. Anyone in Scotland who reads the document will wonder why we need an army of ministers to administer and deliver such a lacklustre programme. We now have 23 ministers to govern Scotland; under the Conservative Government we managed with five. The fastest growing business in Scotland is the business of government; we have ministers, policy advisers, spin-doctors, task forces, review committees and focus groups, all tripping over one another to tell the people of Scotland what is good for them. This is a circus that fools no one; the document is a triumph of style over substance. The emperor has no clothes and, before long, the people will see through him and find him out.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have been instructed to bring my remarks to a close, but I will be happy to give way to the member on another occasion.

Given the programme's lack of references to the Liberal Democrats' policies, it must be an embarrassment to them. The document fails to mention the Liberal Democrats' supposed commitments to abolish tuition fees, restore free eye and dental checks, or stop the use of the private finance initiative. What about getting rid of the beef-on-the-bone ban, Mr Lyon? Or ending tolls on the Skye bridge, Mr Munro? I hope that Liberal Democrat members who support the coalition noted that their PFI policy was subject to particularly withering scorn from the First Minister in his opening speech.

Anyone in Scotland who reads the document will wonder why we need an army of ministers to administer and deliver such a lacklustre programme. We now have 23 ministers to govern Scotland; under the Conservative Government we managed with five. The fastest growing business in Scotland is the business of government; we have ministers, policy advisers, spin-doctors, task

forces, review committees and focus groups, all tripping over one another to tell the people of Scotland what is good for them. This is a circus that fools no one; the document is a triumph of style over substance. The emperor has no clothes and, before long, the people will see through him and find him out.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C706983", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 145.0, "ContributionID": 706983, "EditedText": "On Mr Salmond's point of order, I remind members to address their remarks through the chair and of their obligation to conduct themselves in a courteous, respectful and orderly manner, as laid down in rule 7.3.1 of the standing orders.", "EditedTextHTML": "On Mr Salmond's point of order, I remind members to address their remarks through the chair and of their obligation to conduct themselves in a courteous, respectful and orderly manner, as laid down in rule 7.3.1 of the standing orders.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C706984", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon (Argyll and Bute) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 148.0, "ContributionID": 706984, "EditedText": "On behalf of the Scottish Liberal Democrats, I welcome the publication of \"Making it work together: A programme for government\". The document is a bold and imaginative step by the Scottish Executive that puts further flesh on the partnership document agreed by the Scottish Liberal Democrats and the Scottish Labour party. We have listened to Alex Salmond's criticisms; he advocates that the only way to address Scotland's problems is to go for independence. I wonder whether Mr McLetchie, his partner in opposition—in the unholy alliance—agrees with him. Perhaps we will hear about that during the debate.", "EditedTextHTML": "On behalf of the Scottish Liberal Democrats, I welcome the publication of \"Making it work together: A programme for government\". The document is a bold and imaginative step by the Scottish Executive that puts further flesh on the partnership document agreed by the Scottish Liberal Democrats and the Scottish Labour party.

We have listened to Alex Salmond's criticisms; he advocates that the only way to address Scotland's problems is to go for independence. I wonder whether Mr McLetchie, his partner in opposition—in the unholy alliance—agrees with him. Perhaps we will hear about that during the debate.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C706986", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 152.0, "ContributionID": 706986, "EditedText": "I said that I was speaking on behalf of the Scottish Liberal Democrats because I am a member of that party. I take it that that is not out of order, Deputy Presiding Officer? The programme outlines 150 individually timetabled priorities. As Donald Dewar rightly said, that has never been done before. That shows the Government's confidence in its ability to deliver across a wide range of areas. Most important, it will deliver by improving our public services, the economy, our transport infrastructure and the environment and by tackling the needs of rural Scotland that were so badly betrayed by the Tory party when it was in power. Mr McLetchie claimed that the Tories acted to address the problems that faced rural Scotland. I remind him that the Tory Government's failure to introduce a proper traceability system for cattle created one of the biggest obstacles to reestablishing the beef trade. The Tory Government failed to deliver. Mr Salmond said that there was nothing new in the document.", "EditedTextHTML": "I said that I was speaking on behalf of the Scottish Liberal Democrats because I am a member of that party. I take it that that is not out of order, Deputy Presiding Officer?

The programme outlines 150 individually timetabled priorities. As Donald Dewar rightly said, that has never been done before. That shows the Government's confidence in its ability to deliver across a wide range of areas. Most important, it will deliver by improving our public services, the economy, our transport infrastructure and the environment and by tackling the needs of rural Scotland that were so badly betrayed by the Tory party when it was in power.

Mr McLetchie claimed that the Tories acted to address the problems that faced rural Scotland. I remind him that the Tory Government's failure to introduce a proper traceability system for cattle created one of the biggest obstacles to re

establishing the beef trade. The Tory Government failed to deliver.

Mr Salmond said that there was nothing new in the document.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C706995", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 170.0, "ContributionID": 706995, "EditedText": "The document demonstrates the partnership Government's commitment to delivering better public services, which remains one of our key priorities. Of course, we need to create wealth to fund good public services—that idea is central to the document. It outlines a powerful programme of measures to help the Scottish economy to grow, creating new jobs and new opportunities for our people. The commitment to create 10,000 new jobs or businesses per year is a big step forward, as is the introduction of a new manufacturing strategy for Scotland, which Henry McLeish set up yesterday to ensure that the Scottish economy continues to grow. The overhaul of tourism strategy will be important for much of rural Scotland, although there has been some good news already in that sector. As Henry McLeish told us at the meeting of the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee last week, the figures for this year show a 20 per cent increase in the number of Scots holidaying in Scotland—I am glad that Mr Salmond was one of them and was obviously contributing to the rural economy. Most important, spend was up by 30 per cent, which shows, thankfully, that last year's disappointing figures are being turned round. Our Tory and nationalist friends in the Opposition—who, as we have seen on numerous occasions, are experiencing real tensions—should stop their usual opportunistic bleating, grow up and start to engage constructively in the debate on how to deliver for the betterment of the Scottish people. To say that the programme—100 new schools, 1,000 extra teachers, an extra £50 million for education, £29 million for students, eight hospitals and 10,000 business start-ups a year—is all spin with no substance is ridiculous and not even worthy of discussion. So far, the Opposition has been characterised by wrecking tactics, in which Mr McLetchie—or should I say Mr Gerry O'Brien—plays the lead role. That strategy will bring comfort only to fundamentalist nationalists.", "EditedTextHTML": "The document demonstrates the partnership Government's commitment to delivering better public services, which remains one of our key priorities. Of course, we need to create wealth to fund good public services—that idea is central to the document. It outlines a powerful programme of measures to help the Scottish economy to grow, creating new jobs and new opportunities for our people. The commitment to create 10,000 new jobs or businesses per year is a big step forward, as is the introduction of a new manufacturing strategy for Scotland, which Henry McLeish set up yesterday to ensure that the Scottish economy continues to grow.

The overhaul of tourism strategy will be important for much of rural Scotland, although there has been some good news already in that sector. As Henry McLeish told us at the meeting of the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee last week, the figures for this year show a 20 per cent increase in the number of Scots holidaying in Scotland—I am glad that Mr Salmond was one of them and was obviously contributing to the rural economy. Most important, spend was up by 30 per cent, which shows, thankfully, that last year's disappointing figures are being turned round.

Our Tory and nationalist friends in the Opposition—who, as we have seen on numerous occasions, are experiencing real tensions—should stop their usual opportunistic bleating, grow up and start to engage constructively in the debate on how to deliver for the betterment of the Scottish people. To say that the programme—100 new schools, 1,000 extra teachers, an extra £50 million for education, £29 million for students, eight hospitals and 10,000 business start-ups a year—is all spin with no substance is ridiculous and not even worthy of discussion.

So far, the Opposition has been characterised by wrecking tactics, in which Mr McLetchie—or should I say Mr Gerry O'Brien—plays the lead role. That strategy will bring comfort only to fundamentalist nationalists.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C706996", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 172.0, "ContributionID": 706996, "EditedText": "We have been very relaxed about the duration of opening speeches, but I would be grateful if members could aim to conclude their remarks within five minutes from now on.", "EditedTextHTML": "We have been very relaxed about the duration of opening speeches, but I would be grateful if members could aim to conclude their remarks within five minutes from now on.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C706998", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 177.0, "ContributionID": 706998, "EditedText": "There is a problem with the microphones. As on previous occasions, please project your voice while it is sorted out.", "EditedTextHTML": "There is a problem with the microphones. As on previous occasions, please project your voice while it is sorted out.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C707000", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 181.0, "ContributionID": 707000, "EditedText": "Order. I have been informed that the microphone system has crashed. I propose that we adjourn the meeting until the problem has been sorted out.", "EditedTextHTML": "Order. I have been informed that the microphone system has crashed. I propose that we adjourn the meeting until the problem has been sorted out.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "C707001", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 184.0, "ContributionID": 707001, "EditedText": "Meeting adjourned.", "EditedTextHTML": "Meeting adjourned.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "C707002", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 186.0, "ContributionID": 707002, "EditedText": "On resuming—", "EditedTextHTML": "On resuming—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C707003", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 187.0, "ContributionID": 707003, "EditedText": "Order. I reconvene this meeting of the Parliament and I wish to apologise to members for the inconvenience that has been caused. I am informed that the fault is not internal to the Parliament but was caused externally. Unfortunately, it caused a complete computer crash and I am now working blind—there is nothing on my screen. I would be grateful if members who intend to speak in this debate could indicate that again by pressing the appropriate button.", "EditedTextHTML": "Order. I reconvene this meeting of the Parliament and I wish to apologise to members for the inconvenience that has been caused. I am informed that the fault is not internal to the Parliament but was caused externally. Unfortunately, it caused a complete computer crash and I am now working blind—there is nothing on my screen. I would be grateful if members who intend to speak in this debate could indicate that again by pressing the appropriate button.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C707008", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 197.0, "ContributionID": 707008, "EditedText": "Mr McAllion, you have about a minute.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr McAllion, you have about a minute.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2112E192P495C707010", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacAskill, Kenny", "ID": 2112, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenny MacAskill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Kenny MacAskill (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 202.0, "ContributionID": 707010, "EditedText": "I can assure John McAllion that I am not going to target the Liberal Democrats with what I will say—I will stick completely to the Labour party, which runs the Executive. Mr McAllion's problem is that he fails to address the fact that this programme proposes nothing of substance and is almost wholly spin. I believe that when an Executive presents its proposals, it has two clear duties: first, to address the immediate needs of the nation and, secondly, to implement its own ambitious programme. I regret that this new document does neither— indeed it is an abject failure on both counts. I would like to deal in particular with transport and the environment, which is the portfolio that I cover. Ten key pledges are referred to in the programme for government—which was ripped to shreds by the leader of the SNP during his tour de force speech. The only pledge on transport and the environment is that there will be a national park at Loch Lomond in 2001. We look forward to that legislation coming in. We will examine it critically and constructively. The SNP views Loch Lomond as a national treasure and making it a national park will add to that. It is not, however, one of Scotland's immediate needs in terms either of transport or of the environment. Scotland's clear and pressing transport problem is the crippling price of fuel and the excise duty that was imposed by the Labour Administration in London. Since it came to power in May 1997, it has increased the price of petrol and diesel by 25 per cent. That affects everybody. It affects not only motorists, but consumers and the whole nation in terms of our manufacturing capability and the ability to sell our goods abroad, which is necessary in a global economy. It is not something that we look at flippantly. The Government has brought the price of a gallon of petrol up to £3.30 in central Scotland and even higher elsewhere. It takes 85p in every pound as revenue for Gordon Brown as Chancellor of the Exchequer. It is a pity that Sarah Boyack is not in thechamber, because when I said that the minister was quite correct in pointing out that fuel and excise duties are reserved matters, she said that she would liaise with the Chancellor of the Exchequer. When I asked later what liaison she had had with the chancellor regarding fuel prices and the fact that we face a 6 per cent increase on top of a 20 per cent market force rise resulting from the fuel duty escalator, I was told—by the press corps—that the chancellor had not spoken to her. I see no need for this Parliament to sit and wait for the chancellor to come to speak to us. As the elected representatives of the people of Scotland it is our duty to articulate their position. We should tell the Chancellor of the Exchequer that his ripping off of the Scottish motorist is undermining our ability to cope economically as a nation.", "EditedTextHTML": "I can assure John McAllion that I am not going to target the Liberal Democrats with what I will say—I will stick completely to the Labour party, which runs the Executive. Mr McAllion's problem is that he fails to address the fact that this programme proposes nothing of substance and is almost wholly spin.

I believe that when an Executive presents its proposals, it has two clear duties: first, to address the immediate needs of the nation and, secondly, to implement its own ambitious programme. I regret that this new document does neither— indeed it is an abject failure on both counts.

I would like to deal in particular with transport and the environment, which is the portfolio that I cover. Ten key pledges are referred to in the programme for government—which was ripped to shreds by the leader of the SNP during his tour de force speech. The only pledge on transport and the environment is that there will be a national park at Loch Lomond in 2001. We look forward to that legislation coming in. We will examine it critically and constructively. The SNP views Loch Lomond as a national treasure and making it a national park will add to that. It is not, however, one of Scotland's immediate needs in terms either of transport or of the environment.

Scotland's clear and pressing transport problem is the crippling price of fuel and the excise duty that was imposed by the Labour Administration in London. Since it came to power in May 1997, it has increased the price of petrol and diesel by 25 per cent. That affects everybody. It affects not only motorists, but consumers and the whole nation in terms of our manufacturing capability and the ability to sell our goods abroad, which is necessary in a global economy. It is not something that we look at flippantly.

The Government has brought the price of a gallon of petrol up to £3.30 in central Scotland and even higher elsewhere. It takes 85p in every pound as revenue for Gordon Brown as Chancellor of the Exchequer.

It is a pity that Sarah Boyack is not in the

chamber, because when I said that the minister was quite correct in pointing out that fuel and excise duties are reserved matters, she said that she would liaise with the Chancellor of the Exchequer. When I asked later what liaison she had had with the chancellor regarding fuel prices and the fact that we face a 6 per cent increase on top of a 20 per cent market force rise resulting from the fuel duty escalator, I was told—by the press corps—that the chancellor had not spoken to her.

I see no need for this Parliament to sit and wait for the chancellor to come to speak to us. As the elected representatives of the people of Scotland it is our duty to articulate their position. We should tell the Chancellor of the Exchequer that his ripping off of the Scottish motorist is undermining our ability to cope economically as a nation.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1873E89P171C707013", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jackson, Dr Sylvia", "ID": 1873, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Stirling" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sylvia Jackson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Sylvia Jackson (Stirling) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 209.0, "ContributionID": 707013, "EditedText": "I see this week as containing an innovative approach— many would say a courageous approach—towards a programme for government. \"Making it work together\" attempts to prioritise the future work of the Parliament. The importance of the timed action points should not be underestimated. They are what is needed for the credibility of the Parliament and they are an important aspect of the document. I do not think that we should apologise for the fact that the partnership agreement forms the basis for those points. The new document has re-emphasised key aspects of the partnership agreement. \"Making it work together\" presents a way of working and a commitment to partnership at all levels: not only at the level of the Scottish Parliament and of the people of Scotland, but on a local level between agencies and community groups. Believe me, that is why I came to the Scottish Parliament: I thought that we could make those links effectively and promote more effective decision making for Scotland. I think that the title \"Making it work together\" is therefore particularly apt. It should, however, be appreciated that partnerships do not come easily and that there are difficulties. In the past, piecemeal funding has often meant that projects have not realised their full potential; they have not allowed communities to achieve the type of sustainability that the document aims for. Sustainability, like social inclusion, is one of the big trends that run through the document. The problems of piecemeal funding have been clear in my and other constituencies. One example is in Crianlarich and Tyndrum. That rural area has achieved a great deal through the Strath Fillan Trust, which has brought together housing, economic development, childcare and the environment. The trust has provided us and all rural communities striving to create a sustainable environment with a model.", "EditedTextHTML": "I see this week as containing an innovative approach— many would say a courageous approach—towards a programme for government. \"Making it work together\" attempts to prioritise the future work of the Parliament.

The importance of the timed action points should not be underestimated. They are what is needed for the credibility of the Parliament and they are an important aspect of the document. I do not think that we should apologise for the fact that the partnership agreement forms the basis for those points. The new document has re-emphasised key aspects of the partnership agreement.

\"Making it work together\" presents a way of working and a commitment to partnership at all

levels: not only at the level of the Scottish Parliament and of the people of Scotland, but on a local level between agencies and community groups. Believe me, that is why I came to the Scottish Parliament: I thought that we could make those links effectively and promote more effective decision making for Scotland. I think that the title \"Making it work together\" is therefore particularly apt.

It should, however, be appreciated that partnerships do not come easily and that there are difficulties. In the past, piecemeal funding has often meant that projects have not realised their full potential; they have not allowed communities to achieve the type of sustainability that the document aims for. Sustainability, like social inclusion, is one of the big trends that run through the document.

The problems of piecemeal funding have been clear in my and other constituencies. One example is in Crianlarich and Tyndrum. That rural area has achieved a great deal through the Strath Fillan Trust, which has brought together housing, economic development, childcare and the environment. The trust has provided us and all rural communities striving to create a sustainable environment with a model.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2152E53P75C707031", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnston, Nick", "ID": 2152, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nick Johnston", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Johnston: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 247.0, "ContributionID": 707031, "EditedText": "I would like to finish this point, as it is a little obscure and I am sure that I shall lose the plot. I am worried by the number of private companies that are being set up by local enterprise companies and local authorities—in competition with private enterprise—but that are not regulated by the Accounts Commission for Scotland and the Auditor General. I ask the First Minister to take up the matter with the powers that be at Westminster, so that proper scrutiny of that use of public funds will be allowed.", "EditedTextHTML": "I would like to finish this point, as it is a little obscure and I am sure that I shall lose the plot.

I am worried by the number of private companies that are being set up by local enterprise companies and local authorities—in competition with private enterprise—but that are not regulated by the Accounts Commission for Scotland and the Auditor General. I ask the First Minister to take up the matter with the powers that be at Westminster, so that proper scrutiny of that use of public funds will be allowed.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2142E142P230C707017", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Watson, Mike", "ID": 2142, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Cathcart" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Watson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mike Watson (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 218.0, "ContributionID": 707017, "EditedText": "Will Nicola Sturgeon give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Nicola Sturgeon give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C707021", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 226.0, "ContributionID": 707021, "EditedText": "I am genuinely curious. I understand that Nicola Sturgeon regards our provision as totally inadequate. I also understand that she rules out public-private partnership to finance these projects. Will she explain what budget, from the public expenditure survey figure of the Scottish Executive enterprise and lifelong learning department, she would anticipate spending if the SNP was in power?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am genuinely curious. I understand that Nicola Sturgeon regards our provision as totally inadequate. I also understand that she rules out public-private partnership to finance these projects. Will she explain what budget, from the public expenditure survey figure of the Scottish Executive enterprise and lifelong learning department, she would anticipate spending if the SNP was in power?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2152E53P75C707025", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnston, Nick", "ID": 2152, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nick Johnston", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Nick Johnston (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 235.0, "ContributionID": 707025, "EditedText": "The Conservative party welcomes much— but not all—of this document. I particularly commend the Scottish Executive on its proposals on drugs issues. Listening to the speech of the First Minister, I was reminded of a meringue—all sugary and sweet on the outside and nothing at all in the middle. On the outside is the wish list of targets; on the inside is a vacuum, especially where the business agenda is concerned. It is easy for the Executive to meet targets whenit sets them, reports on them and decides the measurement criteria itself. At the meeting of Parliament on 16 June, when launching this programme for the first time, the First Minister said that we needed an economy that captured the new spirit of enterprise, and that we would succeed when we got the best out of all our people, grasping opportunity and making the most of our natural resource. He went on to say:\"We need to generate the resources required to deliver a transport system that will be fit for the 21st century.\"– Official Report, 16 June 1999; Vol 1, c 407. The Conservatives were the midwives of the enterprise economy when the Labour party still thought that the word profit was an obscenity— there are people in that party who still think that. The Labour party has no idea how to create such an economy. As the transport bill makes clear, an enterprise economy requires low taxation. That is why the Conservatives have consistently opposed the introduction of road tolls, workplace parking and tax barriers for our cities. Labour should work towards creating a level playing field for our hauliers; it should stop penalising the motorist and damaging our businesses.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Conservative party welcomes much— but not all—of this document. I particularly commend the Scottish Executive on its proposals on drugs issues.

Listening to the speech of the First Minister, I was reminded of a meringue—all sugary and sweet on the outside and nothing at all in the middle. On the outside is the wish list of targets; on the inside is a vacuum, especially where the business agenda is concerned.

It is easy for the Executive to meet targets when

it sets them, reports on them and decides the measurement criteria itself. At the meeting of Parliament on 16 June, when launching this programme for the first time, the First Minister said that we needed an economy that captured the new spirit of enterprise, and that we would succeed when we got the best out of all our people, grasping opportunity and making the most of our natural resource.

He went on to say:

\"We need to generate the resources required to deliver a transport system that will be fit for the 21st century.\"– [Official Report, 16 June 1999; Vol 1, c 407.]

The Conservatives were the midwives of the enterprise economy when the Labour party still thought that the word profit was an obscenity— there are people in that party who still think that. The Labour party has no idea how to create such an economy. As the transport bill makes clear, an enterprise economy requires low taxation. That is why the Conservatives have consistently opposed the introduction of road tolls, workplace parking and tax barriers for our cities. Labour should work towards creating a level playing field for our hauliers; it should stop penalising the motorist and damaging our businesses.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1850E185P354C707036", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Radcliffe, Nora", "ID": 1850, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Gordon" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nora Radcliffe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nora Radcliffe (Gordon) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 258.0, "ContributionID": 707036, "EditedText": "I welcome the document for its content, if not for its awkward size. It makes a straightforward commitment that manifesto promises, negotiated into the partnership agreement, will be delivered—and it says when they will be delivered. I like the story of the old dear on the west coast who heard the Spanish word mañana and said, \"Och, we have naething as urgent as that here.\" Some of the actions outlined in this document are for mañana, as they have to be but, for a substantial part of the programme, mañana has been pinned down. I may be in trouble on the west coast for the mañana story but, as equal opportunities spokesman for the Liberal Democrats, I point out that at least the \"old dear\" was gender free. Proposals that I am particularly enthusiastic about in terms of equal opportunities include more geographic opportunity for students, with support committed to the University of the Highlands and Islands. I am pleased that barrier-free housing standards will be looked at; it is better and very much cheaper to build houses that are barrier free at the outset than it is to adapt them later. I am also pleased to see the commitment to continuing to make public buildings really public by adapting them for the less physically able. I am glad to see support for concessionary bus fare schemes for pensioners and those with special needs and support for greater equality of access to public transport in rural areas through the rural transport fund, which has already been put in place. On recycling and waste minimisation, I hope that the Parliament will use its purchasing power to close the recycling loop by buying recycled products. The only way in which to maintain recycling is to have a market for the recycled products. In conclusion, I have a question and a comment. Would Mr Salmond have cancelled new hospital projects because someone else had begun them? My comment is for Mr McLetchie. If the Tory Government had spent half the £1 billion that it spent on the BSE crisis to deal with the problem at the outset, we would all be a lot better off now.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the document for its content, if not for its awkward size. It makes a straightforward commitment that manifesto promises, negotiated into the partnership agreement, will be delivered—and it says when they will be delivered. I like the story of the old dear on the west coast who heard the Spanish word mañana and said, \"Och, we have naething as urgent as that here.\" Some of the actions outlined in this document are for mañana, as they have to be but, for a substantial part of the programme, mañana has been pinned down.

I may be in trouble on the west coast for the mañana story but, as equal opportunities spokesman for the Liberal Democrats, I point out that at least the \"old dear\" was gender free. Proposals that I am particularly enthusiastic about in terms of equal opportunities include more geographic opportunity for students, with support committed to the University of the Highlands and Islands. I am pleased that barrier-free housing standards will be looked at; it is better and very much cheaper to build houses that are barrier free at the outset than it is to adapt them later. I am also pleased to see the commitment to continuing to make public buildings really public by adapting them for the less physically able. I am glad to see support for concessionary bus fare schemes for pensioners and those with special needs and support for greater equality of access to public transport in rural areas through the rural transport fund, which has already been put in place.

On recycling and waste minimisation, I hope that the Parliament will use its purchasing power to close the recycling loop by buying recycled products. The only way in which to maintain recycling is to have a market for the recycled products.

In conclusion, I have a question and a comment. Would Mr Salmond have cancelled new hospital projects because someone else had begun them? My comment is for Mr McLetchie. If the Tory Government had spent half the £1 billion that it spent on the BSE crisis to deal with the problem at the outset, we would all be a lot better off now.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1762E216P508C707044", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Elder, Dorothy-Grace", "ID": 1762, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 276.0, "ContributionID": 707044, "EditedText": "No, I will not give way.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I will not give way.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2029E47P167C707047", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Henry, Hugh", "ID": 2029, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Hugh Henry", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Hugh Henry (Paisley South) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 283.0, "ContributionID": 707047, "EditedText": "Far from what Nicola Sturgeon says is a lack of aspirational Government, what we are witnessing today is a lack of inspirational opposition. She neglected to answer, or deliberately avoided, the question put by the First Minister: how will she pay for all the things that she wants to be done? If we had an inspirational Opposition that was genuinely concerned about trying to improve the lot of people in this country, perhaps we would have had something other than the facile amendment lodged in the name of Mr Salmond. What does the Opposition intend to do about poverty? We have heard a lot, but there is no substance. What does it intend to do about lack of opportunity? Absolutely no substance has been forthcoming. What does it intend to do about unemployment? No substance. What does it intend to do to raise ambition? Again, no substance. If the Opposition's idea of raising ambition is anything like the ambition shown in that amendment, we will wait a long time before anything comes from the Opposition that improves the quality of life of people in Scotland.I would have more faith and confidence in, and more respect for, an Opposition that tried to—", "EditedTextHTML": "Far from what Nicola Sturgeon says is a lack of aspirational Government, what we are witnessing today is a lack of inspirational opposition. She neglected to answer, or deliberately avoided, the question put by the First Minister: how will she pay for all the things that she wants to be done?

If we had an inspirational Opposition that was genuinely concerned about trying to improve the lot of people in this country, perhaps we would have had something other than the facile amendment lodged in the name of Mr Salmond. What does the Opposition intend to do about poverty? We have heard a lot, but there is no substance. What does it intend to do about lack of opportunity? Absolutely no substance has been forthcoming. What does it intend to do about unemployment? No substance. What does it intend to do to raise ambition? Again, no substance. If the Opposition's idea of raising ambition is anything like the ambition shown in that amendment, we will wait a long time before anything comes from the Opposition that improves

the quality of life of people in Scotland.

I would have more faith and confidence in, and more respect for, an Opposition that tried to—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2029E47P167C707049", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Henry, Hugh", "ID": 2029, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Hugh Henry", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Hugh Henry: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 287.0, "ContributionID": 707049, "EditedText": "I will return to some of the issues dealing with rural areas, but once again the Conservatives are asking questions of back benchers that are better addressed to those members of the Executive who are dealing with the issues. However, I will respond to some of the comments about rural areas. The Opposition is not showing any concern for raising the standard of living in Scotland: it is attempting to score cheap points. Certain aspects of this document could be questioned. Perhaps some things need to be addressed in a different way. I welcome the opportunity that this document provides to ask about the number of students who are going into higher education, and to ask whether modern apprenticeships may, for some people, provide a better route to improving their life chances than a meaningless university course. We must have debates on the best way to improve the lifestyle, ambition and education of our young people. I would like to have a debate on nursery provision for three-year-olds. Is it always best to provide that care in the current kind of facilities, such as nursery schools and nursery centres, or are there other flexible ways of supporting families in Scotland? The great thing about this document is that, for the first time, the targets and ambitions on which we will deliver are set out. We will provide facilities for three-year-olds, and we will provide facilities for the 16 and 17-year-olds who have been denied them. We need to articulate the needs of rural communities, but when I hear rural issues being peddled in this chamber by people who show no concern at times for the poverty and deprivation in many of our urban centres, I am disturbed, and I begin to wonder what their agenda is. Is it about an inclusive Scotland, working together, and examining every area in Scotland? For the first time in Scotland, this document begins to show some way forward for communities like those that I represent, for example, Johnstone, Glenburn and Foxbar. There, young people have been denied opportunities for many years, and people have been forced to live in intolerable conditions. Whether it is with regard to health, education, public transport or a whole range of matters, this document starts to address the specific things that need to be done. I welcome the opportunity to hold the Executive to account over its targets and progress in the coming years. I will hold it to account so that people like me can intervene in the debate to ensure that the measures in this document have an impact on the communities that we represent. If the Opposition has any faith in the people of Scotland and any confidence in this Parliament, it should stop doing the people a disservice by being a cheap Opposition that lacks ambition, inspiration and detail.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will return to some of the issues dealing with rural areas, but once again the Conservatives are asking questions of back benchers that are better addressed to those members of the Executive who are dealing with the issues. However, I will respond to some of the comments about rural areas. The Opposition is not showing any concern for raising the standard of living in Scotland: it is attempting to score cheap points.

Certain aspects of this document could be questioned. Perhaps some things need to be addressed in a different way. I welcome the opportunity that this document provides to ask about the number of students who are going into higher education, and to ask whether modern apprenticeships may, for some people, provide a better route to improving their life chances than a meaningless university course. We must have debates on the best way to improve the lifestyle, ambition and education of our young people.

I would like to have a debate on nursery provision for three-year-olds. Is it always best to provide that care in the current kind of facilities, such as nursery schools and nursery centres, or are there other flexible ways of supporting families in Scotland? The great thing about this document is that, for the first time, the targets and ambitions on which we will deliver are set out. We will provide facilities for three-year-olds, and we will provide facilities for the 16 and 17-year-olds who have been denied them.

We need to articulate the needs of rural communities, but when I hear rural issues being peddled in this chamber by people who show no concern at times for the poverty and deprivation in many of our urban centres, I am disturbed, and I begin to wonder what their agenda is. Is it about an inclusive Scotland, working together, and examining every area in Scotland?

For the first time in Scotland, this document begins to show some way forward for communities like those that I represent, for example, Johnstone, Glenburn and Foxbar. There, young people have been denied opportunities for many years, and people have been forced to live in intolerable conditions. Whether it is with regard to health, education, public transport or a whole range of matters, this document starts to address the specific things that need to be done.

I welcome the opportunity to hold the Executive to account over its targets and progress in the coming years. I will hold it to account so that people like me can intervene in the debate to ensure that the measures in this document have an impact on the communities that we represent. If the Opposition has any faith in the people of Scotland and any confidence in this Parliament, it should stop doing the people a disservice by being a cheap Opposition that lacks ambition, inspiration and detail.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1768E72P274C707050", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Murray, Elaine", "ID": 1768, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumfries" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Murray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Elaine Murray (Dumfries) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 290.0, "ContributionID": 707050, "EditedText": "I am a bit confused, because I am not sure whether I am attending the same debate as the SNP/Tory Opposition alliance. I am not even sure whether I am talking about the same document. Indeed, I wonder whether I inadvertently stumbled into a black hole on my way up here and slipped into an alternative universe.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am a bit confused, because I am not sure whether I am attending the same debate as the SNP/Tory Opposition alliance. I am not even sure whether I am talking about the same document. Indeed, I wonder whether I inadvertently stumbled into a black hole on my way up here and slipped into an alternative universe.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C707051", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 292.0, "ContributionID": 707051, "EditedText": "If Dr Murray slipped into a black hole, it is because the Labour council has not repaired the roads and pavements in Edinburgh, which are a disgrace.", "EditedTextHTML": "If Dr Murray slipped into a black hole, it is because the Labour council has not repaired the roads and pavements in Edinburgh, which are a disgrace.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1768E72P274C707052", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Murray, Elaine", "ID": 1768, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumfries" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Murray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Murray: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 294.0, "ContributionID": 707052, "EditedText": "David McLetchie, Alex Salmond, Nicola Sturgeon and Dorothy-Grace Elder do not like the photographs in the document. They spent a lot of time talking about the style, but not about the content. Alex does not like it because it is too big. Perhaps the Scottish Executive will take that on board and produce one that he can slip into his handbag.", "EditedTextHTML": "David McLetchie, Alex Salmond, Nicola Sturgeon and Dorothy-Grace Elder do not like the photographs in the document. They spent a lot of time talking about the style, but not about the content. Alex does not like it because it is too big. Perhaps the Scottish Executive will take that on board and produce one that he can slip into his handbag.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C707053", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 296.0, "ContributionID": 707053, "EditedText": "Does Dr Murray think that the resources that were committed to this publicity stunt would be better spent on hospitals and schools, or does she think that this document is the priority?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does Dr Murray think that the resources that were committed to this publicity stunt would be better spent on hospitals and schools, or does she think that this document is the priority?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1986E53P206C707075", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26765, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26766, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 344.0, "QuestionHeading": "Citizens Justice", "QuestionHeadingID": 26767, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 345.0, "DisplayOrder": 345.0, "ID": 26767, "ParentID": 26766 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeil, Duncan", "ID": 1986, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Greenock and Inverclyde" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan McNeil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "1. Mr Duncan McNeil (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 346.0, "ContributionID": 707075, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will make a statement on support for local community involvement in regeneration through citizens juries. (S1O-279) The Minister for Communities (Ms Wendy Alexander): We are determined that the views of local people are at the heart of regenerating Scottish communities. I therefore announced, at a Scottish Council for Voluntary Organisations conference last month, our support for a people's jury in every community that we support through our social inclusion partnerships. The juries will address issues chosen by representatives of the local community.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will make a statement on support for local community involvement in regeneration through citizens juries. (S1O-279) The Minister for Communities (Ms Wendy Alexander): We are determined that the views of local people are at the heart of regenerating Scottish communities. I therefore announced, at a Scottish Council for Voluntary Organisations conference last month, our support for a people's jury in every community that we support through our social inclusion partnerships. The juries will address issues chosen by representatives of the local community.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1768E72P274C707056", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Murray, Elaine", "ID": 1768, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumfries" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Murray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Murray: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 302.0, "ContributionID": 707056, "EditedText": "I prioritise the needs of working- class people over the needs of those who can afford to pay. That is the basis of socialism. The final priority is\"To create a culture of lifelong learning, increasing adult participation in education and training\". I speak as a former lecturer at the Open University. I taught many people from disadvantaged backgrounds who wished to retrain. The vast majority had to pay their own tuition fees and had to support themselves without a maintenance grant. I am pleased that the Government has promised to consider sorting out the anomalies between part-time and full-time students. The section at the bottom of page 10 states that a priority is also to \"Support the progress of the University of the Highlands and Islands and investigate a South of Scotland University.\" In August, the Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning went with me to Crichton College in Dumfries. I wish that Opposition members had been there. It might have helped them to set aside their cynicism. It is a terrific facility. We spoke to people who had been on the first access course at that college. We spoke to one woman—who was not my constituent but one of Alasdair Morgan's— who explained that, had that course not existed, she would not have been able to get access to lifelong learning. The commitment to improve access to education in rural areas is extremely important. If the Parliament manages to deliver that for people in rural communities in the south of Scotland, I will be proud of it.", "EditedTextHTML": "I prioritise the needs of working- class people over the needs of those who can afford to pay. That is the basis of socialism.

The final priority is

\"To create a culture of lifelong learning, increasing adult participation in education and training\".

I speak as a former lecturer at the Open University. I taught many people from disadvantaged backgrounds who wished to retrain. The vast majority had to pay their own tuition fees and had to support themselves without a maintenance grant. I am pleased that the Government has promised to consider sorting out the anomalies between part-time and full-time students.

The section at the bottom of page 10 states that a priority is also to

\"Support the progress of the University of the Highlands and Islands and investigate a South of Scotland University.\"

In August, the Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning went with me to Crichton College in

Dumfries. I wish that Opposition members had been there. It might have helped them to set aside their cynicism. It is a terrific facility. We spoke to people who had been on the first access course at that college. We spoke to one woman—who was not my constituent but one of Alasdair Morgan's— who explained that, had that course not existed, she would not have been able to get access to lifelong learning.

The commitment to improve access to education in rural areas is extremely important. If the Parliament manages to deliver that for people in rural communities in the south of Scotland, I will be proud of it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C707064", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 322.0, "ContributionID": 707064, "EditedText": "Absolutely.", "EditedTextHTML": "Absolutely.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1986E53P206C707061", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeil, Duncan", "ID": 1986, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Greenock and Inverclyde" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan McNeil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Duncan McNeil (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 316.0, "ContributionID": 707061, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C707068", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26764, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 330.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 330.0, "ID": 26764, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ms Patricia Ferguson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 331.0, "ContributionID": 707068, "EditedText": "The next item of business is consideration of a business motion from the Parliamentary Bureau setting out a revised business programme. I call Mr Tom McCabe to move the motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "The next item of business is consideration of a business motion from the Parliamentary Bureau setting out a revised business programme. I call Mr Tom McCabe to move the motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2228E151P202C707069", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26764, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 330.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 330.0, "ID": 26764, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McCabe, Tom", "ID": 2228, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Tom McCabe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Parliament (Mr Tom McCabe): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 334.0, "ContributionID": 707069, "EditedText": "The motion sets out the business for next week and the provisional business for the following week. In addition, there is a slight suggested amendment to the business for today. The amendment is that, after the motion to approve the Scottish statutory instruments, the Parliament considers a motion on the lead committee for the Public Finance and Accountability Bill. That amendment would allow the committee to get down to work and report prior to stage 1. On Wednesday 15 September at 2.30 pm, there will be a debate on an Executive motion on the Food Standards Agency. That will be followed by a motion on the nomination and appointment of the Auditor General for Scotland. There will then be a formal motion, which will be taken without debate, to designate lead committees for the Scottish statutory instruments. Decision time will be at five o'clock. After decision time, there will be a members' business debate on motion S1M-86, in the name of Alasdair Morgan, on Wigtown, Scotland's national book town. On Thursday 16 September, the first item of business, at 9.30 am, will be a non-Executive business debate on a motion by the Scottish Conservative and Unionist party on the subject of transport. That will be followed by another business motion and the afternoon session will start with question time at 2.30 pm, which will be followed by open question time at 3 pm. At 3.15 pm, there will be a ministerial statement on the water industry, which will be followed by a debate on an Executive motion on homelessness. Decision time will be at 5 pm. After decision time, there will be a members' business debate on motion S1M-98, in the name of Mr Tavish Scott, on the crisis in salmon farming. The business for the following week is provisional. It is proposed that there will be a debate on an Executive motion on tourism at 2.30 pm on Wednesday 22 September. Decision time will take place at 5 pm and will be followed by a members' business debate on a subject yet to be announced. On Thursday 23 September, the printed motion suggests that the morning will begin with a debate on the manufacturing and industrial strategy for Scotland. I give notice, however, that business for that day is likely to be changed. An alternative subject will be announced in next week's business motion. Immediately before lunch, a further business motion will be moved. The afternoon will begin with question time at 2.30 pm, followed by open question time. At 3.15 pm there will be a debate on an Executive motion on the voluntary sector. Decision time will be at 5 pm and will be followed by a members' business debate on a subject that has yet to be announced. Today's motion also indicates dates by which committees should make recommendations on Scottish statutory instruments to the lead committees. I move,That the Parliament agrees— (a) the following amendment to the programme of business agreed on 1 September— Thursday 9 September 1999 after \"Motion to Approve SSIs (to be taken without debate)\" insert – followed by Motion to Approve the Designation of the lead Committee for the Public Finance and Accountability Bill (to be taken without debate) (b) the following programme of business— Wednesday 15 September 1999 2.30 pm Debate on an Executive Motion on the Food Standards Agency followed by, no Motion on the Nomination and earlier than 4.30 pm Appointment of the Auditor General for Scotland followed by Motion on the Designation of Lead Committees for SSIs (to be taken without debate) 5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business Debate on the subject of S1M-86 Alasdair Morgan: Wigtown, Scotland's National Book Town Thursday 16 September 19999.30 am Non-Executive Business: Debate on a Motion by the Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party on the subject of Transport followed by, no Business Motion later than 12.20 pm2.30 pm Question Time 3.00 pm Open Question Time followed by, no Ministerial Statement on the Water later than 3.15 pm Industry followed by Debate on an Executive Motion on Homelessness 5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business Debate on the Subject of S1M-98 Tavish Scott: Crisis in Salmon Farming Wednesday 22 September 19992.30 pm Debate on an Executive Motion on Tourism 5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business Thursday 23 September 19999.30 am Debate on Executive Motion on a Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy for Scotland followed by, no Business Motion later than 12.20 pm2.30 pm Question Time 3.00 pm Open Question Time followed by, no Debate on an Executive later than 3.15 pm Motion on the Voluntary Sector5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business and (c), the following dates by which other committees should make any recommendations on instruments or draft instruments to the lead committee— i. The Rural Affairs Committee and the European Committee to report to the Transport and Environment Committee on The Environmental Impact Assessment (Forestry) (Scotland) Regulations 1999 (SSI 1999/43) by 29 September 1999 ii. The Rural Affairs Committee and the European Committee to report to the Health and Community Care Committee on The Food (Animals and Animal Products from Belgium) (Emergency Control) (No. 2) (Scotland) Order 1999 (SSI 1999/32) by 29 September 1999 iii. The Rural Affairs Committee and the European Committee to report to the Health and Community Care Committee on The Animal Feedingstuffs from Belgium (Control) (No. 2) (Scotland) Regulations 1999 (SSI 1999/33) by 29 September 1999 iv. The European Committee to report to the Health and Community Care Committee on The Spreadable Fats (Marketing Standards) (Scotland) Regulations 1999 (SSI 1999/34) by 29 September 1999 The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is, that motion S1M-132, in the name of Tom McCabe, be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "The motion sets out the business for next week and the provisional business for the following week. In addition, there is a slight suggested amendment to the business for today. The amendment is that, after the motion to approve the Scottish statutory instruments, the Parliament considers a motion on the lead committee for the Public Finance and Accountability Bill. That amendment would allow the committee to get down to work and report prior to stage 1.

On Wednesday 15 September at 2.30 pm, there will be a debate on an Executive motion on the Food Standards Agency. That will be followed by a motion on the nomination and appointment of the Auditor General for Scotland. There will then be a formal motion, which will be taken without debate, to designate lead committees for the Scottish statutory instruments. Decision time will be at five o'clock. After decision time, there will be a members' business debate on motion S1M-86, in the name of Alasdair Morgan, on Wigtown, Scotland's national book town.

On Thursday 16 September, the first item of business, at 9.30 am, will be a non-Executive business debate on a motion by the Scottish Conservative and Unionist party on the subject of transport. That will be followed by another business motion and the afternoon session will start with question time at 2.30 pm, which will be followed by open question time at 3 pm. At 3.15 pm, there will be a ministerial statement on the water industry, which will be followed by a debate on an Executive motion on homelessness. Decision time will be at 5 pm. After decision time, there will be a members' business debate on motion S1M-98, in the name of Mr Tavish Scott, on the crisis in salmon farming.

The business for the following week is provisional. It is proposed that there will be a debate on an Executive motion on tourism at 2.30 pm on Wednesday 22 September. Decision time will take place at 5 pm and will be followed by a members' business debate on a subject yet to be announced.

On Thursday 23 September, the printed motion suggests that the morning will begin with a debate

on the manufacturing and industrial strategy for Scotland. I give notice, however, that business for that day is likely to be changed. An alternative subject will be announced in next week's business motion. Immediately before lunch, a further business motion will be moved. The afternoon will begin with question time at 2.30 pm, followed by open question time. At 3.15 pm there will be a debate on an Executive motion on the voluntary sector. Decision time will be at 5 pm and will be followed by a members' business debate on a subject that has yet to be announced.

Today's motion also indicates dates by which committees should make recommendations on Scottish statutory instruments to the lead committees.

I move,

That the Parliament agrees— (a) the following amendment to the programme of business agreed on 1 September— Thursday 9 September 1999 after \"Motion to Approve SSIs (to be taken without debate)\" insert – followed by Motion to Approve the Designation of the lead Committee for the Public Finance and Accountability Bill (to be taken without debate) (b) the following programme of business— Wednesday 15 September 1999

2.30 pm Debate on an Executive Motion on the Food Standards Agency followed by, no Motion on the Nomination and earlier than 4.30 pm Appointment of the Auditor General for Scotland followed by Motion on the Designation of Lead Committees for SSIs (to be taken without debate)

5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business Debate on the subject of S1M-86 Alasdair Morgan: Wigtown, Scotland's National Book Town

Thursday 16 September 1999

9.30 am Non-Executive Business: Debate on a Motion by the Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party on the subject of Transport followed by, no Business Motion later than 12.20 pm

2.30 pm Question Time 3.00 pm Open Question Time followed by, no Ministerial Statement on the Water later than 3.15 pm Industry followed by Debate on an Executive Motion on Homelessness

5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business Debate on the Subject of S1M-98 Tavish Scott: Crisis in Salmon Farming

Wednesday 22 September 1999

2.30 pm Debate on an Executive Motion on Tourism 5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business

Thursday 23 September 1999

9.30 am Debate on Executive Motion on a Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy for Scotland followed by, no Business Motion later than 12.20 pm

2.30 pm Question Time 3.00 pm Open Question Time followed by, no Debate on an Executive later than 3.15 pm Motion on the Voluntary Sector

5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business and (c), the following dates by which other committees should make any recommendations on instruments or draft instruments to the lead committee— i. The Rural Affairs Committee and the European Committee to report to the Transport and Environment Committee on The Environmental Impact Assessment (Forestry) (Scotland) Regulations 1999 (SSI 1999/43) by 29 September 1999 ii. The Rural Affairs Committee and the European Committee to report to the Health and Community Care Committee on The Food (Animals and Animal Products from Belgium) (Emergency Control) (No. 2) (Scotland) Order 1999 (SSI 1999/32) by 29 September 1999 iii. The Rural Affairs Committee and the European Committee to report to the Health and Community Care Committee on The Animal Feedingstuffs from Belgium (Control) (No. 2) (Scotland) Regulations 1999 (SSI 1999/33) by 29 September 1999 iv. The European Committee to report to the Health and Community Care Committee on The Spreadable Fats (Marketing Standards) (Scotland) Regulations 1999 (SSI 1999/34) by 29 September 1999 The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is, that motion S1M-132, in the name of Tom McCabe, be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "C707071", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26764, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 330.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 330.0, "ID": 26764, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 337.0, "ContributionID": 707071, "EditedText": "Question, That the meeting be now adjourned until 2.30 pm today, put and agreed to.—Lord James Douglas-Hamilton.", "EditedTextHTML": "Question, That the meeting be now adjourned until 2.30 pm today, put and agreed to.—[Lord James Douglas-Hamilton.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "C707072", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26764, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 330.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 330.0, "ID": 26764, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 338.0, "ContributionID": 707072, "EditedText": "Meeting adjourned at 12:25.", "EditedTextHTML": "Meeting adjourned at 12:25.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1769E16P282C707079", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26765, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26766, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 344.0, "QuestionHeading": "Child Care", "QuestionHeadingID": 26768, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 352.0, "DisplayOrder": 352.0, "ID": 26768, "ParentID": 26766 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Smith, Elaine", "ID": 1769, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Coatbridge and Chryston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Smith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Elaine Smith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 355.0, "ContributionID": 707079, "EditedText": "I thank the minister for his response, but I would like to draw his attention to one particular aspect of the child care agenda that I feel is not given the acclaim that it deserves— that of safe play. No doubt the minister is aware of the added value that play can offer to a child's education and social development—", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the minister for his response, but I would like to draw his attention to one particular aspect of the child care agenda that I feel is not given the acclaim that it deserves— that of safe play. No doubt the minister is aware of the added value that play can offer to a child's education and social development—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C707080", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26765, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26766, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 344.0, "QuestionHeading": "Child Care", "QuestionHeadingID": 26768, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 352.0, "DisplayOrder": 352.0, "ID": 26768, "ParentID": 26766 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 357.0, "ContributionID": 707080, "EditedText": "Elaine, I am sorry, but you must ask a question.", "EditedTextHTML": "Elaine, I am sorry, but you must ask a question.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1769E16P282C707083", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26765, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26766, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 344.0, "QuestionHeading": "Child Care", "QuestionHeadingID": 26768, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 352.0, "DisplayOrder": 352.0, "ID": 26768, "ParentID": 26766 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Smith, Elaine", "ID": 1769, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Coatbridge and Chryston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Smith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Elaine Smith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 363.0, "ContributionID": 707083, "EditedText": "I just wanted to put safe play into the context of the child care agenda. Could the minister clarify the role that play will have in Scotland's child care strategy, with specific reference to the advancement of the provision of out-of-school care? Could I also draw his attention to the excellent facility at Kirkshaws built by Parents Action for Safe Play?", "EditedTextHTML": "I just wanted to put safe play into the context of the child care agenda. Could the minister clarify the role that play will have in Scotland's child care strategy, with specific reference to the advancement of the provision of out-of-school care? Could I also draw his attention to the excellent facility at Kirkshaws built by Parents Action for Safe Play?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2167E79P155C707084", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26765, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26766, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 344.0, "QuestionHeading": "Child Care", "QuestionHeadingID": 26768, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 352.0, "DisplayOrder": 352.0, "ID": 26768, "ParentID": 26766 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Peacock, Peter", "ID": 2167, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Peter Peacock", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Peter Peacock: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 365.0, "ContributionID": 707084, "EditedText": "I am happy to respond to that. Earlier this week, I was at Bells Bank adventure playground in Ayrshire. I was there to demonstrate our commitment to safe play as an important part of the child care strategy. I can assure Elaine Smith that we will continue to give whatever support we can to safe play throughout Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am happy to respond to that. Earlier this week, I was at Bells Bank adventure playground in Ayrshire. I was there to demonstrate our commitment to safe play as an important part of the child care strategy. I can assure Elaine Smith that we will continue to give whatever support we can to safe play throughout Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1840E82P158C707085", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26765, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26766, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 344.0, "QuestionHeading": "Victims of Crime", "QuestionHeadingID": 26769, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 367.0, "DisplayOrder": 367.0, "ID": 26769, "ParentID": 26766 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macmillan, Maureen", "ID": 1840, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Maureen Macmillan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "3. Maureen Macmillan (Highlands and Islands) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 368.0, "ContributionID": 707085, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will make a statement on how it intends to keep victims informed of the progress of cases against offenders. (S1O-261) The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice (Mr Jim Wallace): As set out in \"A Programme for Government\", the Scottish Executive will develop a system to provide key information to victims who wish to be kept informed of the progress of their case.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will make a statement on how it intends to keep victims informed of the progress of cases against offenders. (S1O-261) The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice (Mr Jim Wallace): As set out in \"A Programme for Government\", the Scottish Executive will develop a system to provide key information to victims who wish to be kept informed of the progress of their case.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C707087", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26765, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26766, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 344.0, "QuestionHeading": "Victims of Crime", "QuestionHeadingID": 26769, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 367.0, "DisplayOrder": 367.0, "ID": 26769, "ParentID": 26766 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 372.0, "ContributionID": 707087, "EditedText": "What is envisaged is an effort to improve on the present arrangements, which are sometimes made by word of mouth. We recognise that cases pass from the police through to the procurator fiscal, and it is hoped to get a pilot scheme using computer technology up and running by 2000-01. The issues that are raised in Maureen Macmillan's question are for the Crown Office. As the Lord Advocate, Lord Hardie, explained when he gave his presentation to the Justice and Home Affairs Committee, it is common practice not to give explanations about why charges are changed or are not pursued.", "EditedTextHTML": "What is envisaged is an effort to improve on the present arrangements, which are sometimes made by word of mouth. We recognise that cases pass from the police through to the procurator fiscal, and it is hoped to get a pilot scheme using computer technology up and running by 2000-01.

The issues that are raised in Maureen Macmillan's question are for the Crown Office. As the Lord Advocate, Lord Hardie, explained when he gave his presentation to the Justice and Home Affairs Committee, it is common practice not to give explanations about why charges are changed or are not pursued.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1782E69P279C707088", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26765, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26766, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 344.0, "QuestionHeading": "Tobacco", "QuestionHeadingID": 26770, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 374.0, "DisplayOrder": 374.0, "ID": 26770, "ParentID": 26766 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Oldfather, Irene", "ID": 1782, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Cunninghame South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Irene Oldfather", "SpeakerDisplayName": "4. Ms Irene Oldfather (Cunninghame South) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 375.0, "ContributionID": 707088, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will outline its proposals for action to prevent young Scots from becoming addicted to tobacco. (S1O281) The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): The Scottish Executive is firmly committed to reducing the levels of smoking by children and young people in Scotland. The white paper \"Smoking Kills\" outlines a comprehensive range of measures that we are introducing. Specific action includes steps to improve the enforcement of the laws relating to under-age sales of tobacco, and targeted health, education and promotion activity. We will also be legislating later this year to ban tobacco advertising, which does so much to influence our young people to start smoking in the first place.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will outline its proposals for action to prevent young Scots from becoming addicted to tobacco. (S1O281) The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): The Scottish Executive is firmly committed to reducing the levels of smoking by children and young people in Scotland. The white paper \"Smoking Kills\" outlines a comprehensive range of measures that we are introducing. Specific action includes steps to improve the enforcement of the laws relating to under-age sales of tobacco, and targeted health, education and promotion activity. We will also be legislating later this year to ban tobacco advertising, which does so much to influence our young people to start smoking in the first place.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C707092", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26765, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26766, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 344.0, "QuestionHeading": "Stobhill Hospital", "QuestionHeadingID": 26771, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 381.0, "DisplayOrder": 381.0, "ID": 26771, "ParentID": 26766 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 384.0, "ContributionID": 707092, "EditedText": "As the member indicates, I will be visiting Stobhill hospital on Monday 20 September, when I will be presenting the gold award which staff at Stobhill hospital have received under the Scotland's Health at Work award scheme. Owing to other commitments that day, I will be unable to meet with the Medical Staff Association on that occasion.", "EditedTextHTML": "As the member indicates, I will be visiting Stobhill hospital on Monday 20 September, when I will be presenting the gold award which staff at Stobhill hospital have received under the Scotland's Health at Work award scheme. Owing to other commitments that day, I will be unable to meet with the Medical Staff Association on that occasion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2159E115P214C707093", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26765, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26766, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 344.0, "QuestionHeading": "Stobhill Hospital", "QuestionHeadingID": 26771, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 381.0, "DisplayOrder": 381.0, "ID": 26771, "ParentID": 26766 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Martin, Paul", "ID": 2159, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Springburn" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Paul Martin", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Paul Martin: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 386.0, "ContributionID": 707093, "EditedText": "I am obviously disappointed that the minister is unable to deal with the matter. I think that the days of rehearsed, \"I've baked you a cake\" visits to hospitals are past.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am obviously disappointed that the minister is unable to deal with the matter. I think that the days of rehearsed, \"I've baked you a cake\" visits to hospitals are past.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C707102", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26765, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26766, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 344.0, "QuestionHeading": "Dental Health", "QuestionHeadingID": 26773, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 401.0, "DisplayOrder": 401.0, "ID": 26773, "ParentID": 26766 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 406.0, "ContributionID": 707102, "EditedText": "I agree strongly with the member's views on the importance of tackling our children's dental health, in particular in our most deprived communities. As I indicated in the public health debate last week, I think that it is startling that the poorest 10 per cent of our children have half our country's dental decay. We have to tackle the matter on a range of levels and, as I indicated, that is about both local and national activities. It is important that we work across sectors and agencies to get dental services and dental promotion messages across. I take this opportunity to congratulate Victoria nursery school in Airdrie on recently receiving the best oral health initiative award from the British Dental Health Foundation. Some of the work that is going on in our schools is a terrific example of how we can take this approach forward.", "EditedTextHTML": "I agree strongly with the member's views on the importance of tackling our children's dental health, in particular in our most deprived communities. As I indicated in the public health debate last week, I think that it is startling that the poorest 10 per cent of our children have half our country's dental decay. We have to tackle the matter on a range of levels and, as I indicated, that is about both local and national activities. It is important that we work across sectors and agencies to get dental services and dental promotion messages across.

I take this opportunity to congratulate Victoria nursery school in Airdrie on recently receiving the best oral health initiative award from the British Dental Health Foundation. Some of the work that is going on in our schools is a terrific example of

how we can take this approach forward.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1888E265P358C707103", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26765, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26766, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 344.0, "QuestionHeading": "Tourism", "QuestionHeadingID": 26774, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 408.0, "DisplayOrder": 408.0, "ID": 26774, "ParentID": 26766 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morgan, Alasdair", "ID": 1888, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Galloway and Upper Nithsdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morgan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "8. Alasdair Morgan (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 409.0, "ContributionID": 707103, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what action it intends to take to assist the tourism sector in areas of rural Scotland such as Dumfries and Galloway and the Highlands and Islands in the light of the decreases in visitor numbers. (S1O-264) The Deputy Minister for Highlands and Islands and Gaelic (Mr Alasdair Morrison): We shall be publishing a new strategy at the turn of the year and an important objective will be to boost tourism in the remoter areas.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what action it intends to take to assist the tourism sector in areas of rural Scotland such as Dumfries and Galloway and the Highlands and Islands in the light of the decreases in visitor numbers. (S1O-264) The Deputy Minister for Highlands and Islands and Gaelic (Mr Alasdair Morrison): We shall be publishing a new strategy at the turn of the year and an important objective will be to boost tourism in the remoter areas.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1888E265P358C707104", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26765, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26766, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 344.0, "QuestionHeading": "Tourism", "QuestionHeadingID": 26774, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 408.0, "DisplayOrder": 408.0, "ID": 26774, "ParentID": 26766 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morgan, Alasdair", "ID": 1888, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Galloway and Upper Nithsdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morgan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alasdair Morgan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 411.0, "ContributionID": 707104, "EditedText": "I think that I could have anticipated that reply. Will the minister say what representations he has made or will be making to the Chancellor of the Exchequer in light of the increase in interest rates yesterday? While he keeps the pound at an excessively high level, high interest rates are having an adverse effect on the number of foreign visitors coming to Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "I think that I could have anticipated that reply. Will the minister say what representations he has made or will be making to the Chancellor of the Exchequer in light of the increase in interest rates yesterday? While he keeps the pound at an excessively high level, high interest rates are having an adverse effect on the number of foreign visitors coming to Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1889E118P162C707105", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26765, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26766, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 344.0, "QuestionHeading": "Tourism", "QuestionHeadingID": 26774, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 408.0, "DisplayOrder": 408.0, "ID": 26774, "ParentID": 26766 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morrison, Mr Alasdair", "ID": 1889, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Western Isles" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morrison", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Morrison: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 413.0, "ContributionID": 707105, "EditedText": "The evidence we have to date on the first quarter of this year shows that figures for visitors from overseas are at the same level as they were last year. I think that that is also true of visitors from within the United Kingdom.", "EditedTextHTML": "The evidence we have to date on the first quarter of this year shows that figures for visitors from overseas are at the same level as they were last year. I think that that is also true of visitors from within the United Kingdom.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2112E192P495C707109", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26765, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26766, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 344.0, "QuestionHeading": "Railways", "QuestionHeadingID": 26775, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 419.0, "DisplayOrder": 419.0, "ID": 26775, "ParentID": 26766 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacAskill, Kenny", "ID": 2112, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenny MacAskill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr MacAskill: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 422.0, "ContributionID": 707109, "EditedText": "Does the minister support the Larkhall rail extension to the Haughhead junction, when will she authorise its construction and how will it be funded?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the minister support the Larkhall rail extension to the Haughhead junction, when will she authorise its construction and how will it be funded?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C707124", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26765, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26766, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 344.0, "QuestionHeading": "Yorkhill Hospital", "QuestionHeadingID": 26778, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 450.0, "DisplayOrder": 450.0, "ID": 26778, "ParentID": 26766 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 455.0, "ContributionID": 707124, "EditedText": "With respect, members ought to be careful of engaging in such sensitive issues on a relatively ill-informed basis. The matter is not a debate but a sensitive and important issue. I take the decision very seriously indeed. This is not about closing facilities, but about improving services. As I said earlier, every clinician agrees that the best thing for Scotland is to unify paediatric cardiac surgery on one site. To reduce this debate to a turf war between one end of the M8 and the other is to do a great disservice not only to the national health service, but, most of all, to the people who rely on the paediatric surgery service.", "EditedTextHTML": "With respect, members ought to be careful of engaging in such sensitive issues on a relatively ill-informed basis. The matter is not a debate but a sensitive and important issue. I take the decision very seriously indeed. This is not about closing facilities, but about improving services. As I said earlier, every clinician agrees that the best thing for Scotland is to unify paediatric cardiac surgery on one site. To reduce this debate to a turf war between one end of the M8 and the other is to do a great disservice not only to the national health service, but, most of all, to the people who rely on the paediatric surgery service.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1865E219P509C707125", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26765, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26766, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 344.0, "QuestionHeading": "Yorkhill Hospital", "QuestionHeadingID": 26778, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 450.0, "DisplayOrder": 450.0, "ID": 26778, "ParentID": 26766 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "White, Sandra", "ID": 1865, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sandra White", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms White: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 457.0, "ContributionID": 707125, "EditedText": "That is the usual Labour-speak. You are the ones who are starting a turf war.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is the usual Labour-speak. You are the ones who are starting a turf war.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C707131", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26765, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26766, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 344.0, "QuestionHeading": "Teachers", "QuestionHeadingID": 26779, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 465.0, "DisplayOrder": 465.0, "ID": 26779, "ParentID": 26766 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Galbraith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 470.0, "ContributionID": 707131, "EditedText": "Resources are not the issue at stake in this dispute. Of course, everyone would bitterly regret industrial action, which no one wants and which is in the interests neither of the teachers nor of the kids. As I said, we are considering all the options and await the outcome of the ballot.", "EditedTextHTML": "Resources are not the issue at stake in this dispute. Of course, everyone would bitterly regret industrial action, which no one wants and which is in the interests neither of the teachers nor of the kids. As I said, we are considering all the options and await the outcome of the ballot.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C707135", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26765, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26766, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 344.0, "QuestionHeading": "National Stadium", "QuestionHeadingID": 26780, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 476.0, "DisplayOrder": 476.0, "ID": 26780, "ParentID": 26766 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Children and Education (Mr Sam Galbraith): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 479.0, "ContributionID": 707135, "EditedText": "Presiding Officer, I have been asked for a detailed statement and I hope, therefore, that you will indulge me somewhat by allowing me to make my answer slightly longer than usual. I am very concerned about the financial problems relating to the national stadium at Hampden Park. We are co-operating closely with the major funders—the Millennium Commission, the Scottish Football Association and others—in trying to resolve the current problems and ensure the long-term viability of the stadium. The funders, including the Scottish Executive, commissioned an independent financial and technical assessment of the project. The final report by the consultants will be submitted shortly. The preliminary findings have already begun to establish a basis of information for reaching firm decisions on the way forward. We and the other funders are discussing the position with National Stadium plc. It would be inappropriate to comment in further detail at this stage, as there are important issues for the funders and for National Stadium plc to consider in the light of the consultants' preliminary findings.", "EditedTextHTML": "Presiding Officer, I have been asked for a detailed statement and I hope, therefore, that you will indulge me somewhat by allowing me to make my answer slightly longer than usual.

I am very concerned about the financial problems relating to the national stadium at Hampden Park. We are co-operating closely with the major funders—the Millennium Commission, the Scottish Football Association and others—in trying to resolve the current problems and ensure the long-term viability of the stadium.

The funders, including the Scottish Executive, commissioned an independent financial and technical assessment of the project. The final report by the consultants will be submitted shortly. The preliminary findings have already begun to establish a basis of information for reaching firm decisions on the way forward.

We and the other funders are discussing the position with National Stadium plc. It would be inappropriate to comment in further detail at this stage, as there are important issues for the funders and for National Stadium plc to consider in the light of the consultants' preliminary findings.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C707141", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26765, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26766, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 344.0, "QuestionHeading": "National Stadium", "QuestionHeadingID": 26780, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 476.0, "DisplayOrder": 476.0, "ID": 26780, "ParentID": 26766 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Galbraith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 491.0, "ContributionID": 707141, "EditedText": "We and the other funders sent in advisers, and we have just received their preliminary report. The implications for National Stadium plc and for the funders are being discussed and it would be inappropriate for me to take the matter any further at this stage.", "EditedTextHTML": "We and the other funders sent in advisers, and we have just received their preliminary report. The implications for National Stadium plc and for the funders are being discussed and it would be inappropriate for me to take the matter any further at this stage.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C707156", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26765, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26766, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 344.0, "QuestionHeading": "Signum Circuits", "QuestionHeadingID": 26782, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 502.0, "DisplayOrder": 502.0, "ID": 26782, "ParentID": 26766 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Angus MacKay: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 523.0, "ContributionID": 707156, "EditedText": "It is for that reason that I am delighted to have the opportunity to remind members that, following several high-profile cases in 1998, a review of procedures that was announced by the Lord Advocate has been completed. New procedures will be in place from 1 October this year, which should mean that those circumstances occur less frequently.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is for that reason that I am delighted to have the opportunity to remind members that, following several high-profile cases in 1998, a review of procedures that was announced by the Lord Advocate has been completed. New procedures will be in place from 1 October this year, which should mean that those circumstances occur less frequently.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C707163", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26783, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 525.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26784, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 526.0, "QuestionHeading": "Concordats", "QuestionHeadingID": 26785, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 527.0, "DisplayOrder": 527.0, "ID": 26785, "ParentID": 26784 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 540.0, "ContributionID": 707163, "EditedText": "I apologise for repeating myself but, as I said a few minutes ago, those agreements are not legally binding. However, they are important in an administrative sense to the Scottish Executive and to Whitehall departments. I do not deal in leaks. As far as inward investment is concerned, Locate in Scotland was never likely to be victimised. It is extremely important that there are ground rules that prevent the component parts of the United Kingdom bidding against one another to the advantage of incoming industry and to the disadvantage of us all. I am very much in favour of debating the concordats thoroughly, but they are not documents that are open to amendment in the way that I think Mr Salmond envisages. Old habits die hard. I see that he has been rummlin through his old cuttings from Westminster. Perhaps old habits die hard with him as well.", "EditedTextHTML": "I apologise for repeating myself but, as I said a few minutes ago, those agreements are not legally binding. However, they are important in an administrative sense to the Scottish Executive and to Whitehall departments. I do not deal in leaks. As far as inward investment is concerned, Locate in Scotland was never likely to be victimised. It is extremely important that there are ground rules that prevent the component parts of the United Kingdom bidding against one another to the advantage of incoming industry and to the disadvantage of us all.

I am very much in favour of debating the concordats thoroughly, but they are not documents that are open to amendment in the way that I think Mr Salmond envisages. Old habits die hard. I see that he has been rummlin through his old cuttings from Westminster. Perhaps old habits die hard with him as well.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.5140435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C707169", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26783, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 525.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26784, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 526.0, "QuestionHeading": "Prime Minister (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26786, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 542.0, "DisplayOrder": 542.0, "ID": 26786, "ParentID": 26784 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 553.0, "ContributionID": 707169, "EditedText": "I will not say this. I was going to say that—Interruption.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will not say this. I was going to say that—[Interruption.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.5140435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C707171", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26783, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 525.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26784, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 526.0, "QuestionHeading": "Prime Minister (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26786, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 542.0, "DisplayOrder": 542.0, "ID": 26786, "ParentID": 26784 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 557.0, "ContributionID": 707171, "EditedText": "Mr McLetchie's question was lodged as a very clever question, but it has not reached first base. In my gambling activities I give ground to the leader of the nationalist party who is, I gather, a confirmed player of the tables.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr McLetchie's question was lodged as a very clever question, but it has not reached first base.

In my gambling activities I give ground to the leader of the nationalist party who is, I gather, a confirmed player of the tables.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.5140435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C707177", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26783, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 525.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26784, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 526.0, "QuestionHeading": "Amnesic Shellfish Poisoning", "QuestionHeadingID": 26787, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "DisplayOrder": 567.0, "ID": 26787, "ParentID": 26784 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 570.0, "ContributionID": 707177, "EditedText": "Will the minister ensure that fishermen's leaders and the local communities that have been badly affected by the bans are kept fully informed when decisions are taken, and that they are closely consulted as part of that decision- making process?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister ensure that fishermen's leaders and the local communities that have been badly affected by the bans are kept fully informed when decisions are taken, and that they are closely consulted as part of that decision- making process?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.5140435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C707178", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26783, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 525.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26784, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 526.0, "QuestionHeading": "Amnesic Shellfish Poisoning", "QuestionHeadingID": 26787, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "DisplayOrder": 567.0, "ID": 26787, "ParentID": 26784 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 572.0, "ContributionID": 707178, "EditedText": "The Scottish Executive has worked hard to keep fishermen's representatives informed and will continue to attempt to do that. The results of the testing and monitoring programme are faxed weekly to the fishermen concerned. Additionally, as soon as the orders were made, we ensured that fishermen's and trade organisations, local authorities and the Scottish Fisheries Protection Agency were alerted. I am mindful, however, of the point that George Lyon has made and I will continue to be active in that area.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Scottish Executive has worked hard to keep fishermen's representatives

informed and will continue to attempt to do that. The results of the testing and monitoring programme are faxed weekly to the fishermen concerned. Additionally, as soon as the orders were made, we ensured that fishermen's and trade organisations, local authorities and the Scottish Fisheries Protection Agency were alerted. I am mindful, however, of the point that George Lyon has made and I will continue to be active in that area.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.5140435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C707241", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26788, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 590.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 590.0, "ID": 26788, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 710.0, "ContributionID": 707241, "EditedText": "I find that as bewildering an answer today as I found it when Mike Rumbles intervened on me in a previous debate, when there was a legitimate opportunity to vote in principle for the abolition of tuition fees. The timetable has slipped on that issue, too. The issue of the private finance initiative, about which so much has been made, has also underpinned the debate. We have heard more and more about the matter from the Liberal Democrats. Before the election, a spokesman for the Liberal Democrats said in The Scotsman on 2 April 1999 that the party would \"press for the abolition of the Government's private finance initiative . . . The party is attracted by the Scottish National Party's plans for replacing PFI with Public Service Trusts\". There is no such argument in the programme for government.", "EditedTextHTML": "I find that as bewildering an answer today as I found it when Mike Rumbles intervened on me in a previous debate, when there was a legitimate opportunity to vote in principle for the abolition of tuition fees. The timetable has slipped on that issue, too.

The issue of the private finance initiative, about which so much has been made, has also underpinned the debate. We have heard more and more about the matter from the Liberal Democrats. Before the election, a spokesman for the Liberal Democrats said in The Scotsman on 2 April 1999 that the party would

\"press for the abolition of the Government's private finance initiative . . . The party is attracted by the Scottish National Party's plans for replacing PFI with Public Service Trusts\".

There is no such argument in the programme for government.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:30:29.7611592+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C707184", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26783, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 525.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26784, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 526.0, "QuestionHeading": "Amnesic Shellfish Poisoning", "QuestionHeadingID": 26787, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "DisplayOrder": 567.0, "ID": 26787, "ParentID": 26784 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 584.0, "ContributionID": 707184, "EditedText": "As Mr Hamilton knows, we discussed the entire issue at some length—for an hour and a half—at the Health and Community Care Committee meeting earlier this week. He raised the same point then. I have spoken to the Minister for Rural Affairs about the matter and, if I may speak on his behalf, the claim that Mr Hamilton makes is not accurate. If he wishes to discuss it further with the Minister for Rural Affairs, I am sure that the minister would be pleased to do so. I restate the point that I made earlier: both I, as health minister, and the Minister for Rural Affairs are pleased to engage in dialogue with local representatives, whether it be on public health issues, for my part, or on wider industry concerns, for my colleague's part.", "EditedTextHTML": "As Mr Hamilton knows, we discussed the entire issue at some length—for an hour and a half—at the Health and Community Care Committee meeting earlier this week. He raised the same point then. I have spoken to the Minister for Rural Affairs about the matter and, if I may speak on his behalf, the claim that Mr Hamilton makes is not accurate. If he wishes to discuss it further with the Minister for Rural Affairs, I am sure that the minister would be pleased to do so.

I restate the point that I made earlier: both I, as health minister, and the Minister for Rural Affairs are pleased to engage in dialogue with local representatives, whether it be on public health issues, for my part, or on wider industry concerns, for my colleague's part.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5140115+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1762E216P508C707189", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26788, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 590.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 590.0, "ID": 26788, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Elder, Dorothy-Grace", "ID": 1762, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder (Glasgow) (SNP) rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 596.0, "ContributionID": 707189, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5140115+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1854E38P164C707190", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26788, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 590.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 590.0, "ID": 26788, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Godman, Trish", "ID": 1854, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Renfrewshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Trish Godman", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Trish Godman: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 598.0, "ContributionID": 707190, "EditedText": "I shall give way.Dorothy-Grace Elder sat.", "EditedTextHTML": "I shall give way.

Dorothy-Grace Elder sat.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5140115+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1762E216P508C707192", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26788, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 590.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 590.0, "ID": 26788, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Elder, Dorothy-Grace", "ID": 1762, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 602.0, "ContributionID": 707192, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5140115+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C707193", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26788, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 590.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 590.0, "ID": 26788, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 604.0, "ContributionID": 707193, "EditedText": "Which of you has changed your mind?", "EditedTextHTML": "Which of you has changed your mind?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5140115+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1762E216P508C707194", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26788, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 590.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 590.0, "ID": 26788, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Elder, Dorothy-Grace", "ID": 1762, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 606.0, "ContributionID": 707194, "EditedText": "apologise. I must point out that the carers— including parents who were aged around 80— were unanimously against their young people being split up and sent to three different centres. They also feared that, if those young people were put among others who had more mental ability than they did, there could be abuse. They were unanimously against the plan in late June and again in August 1999.", "EditedTextHTML": "apologise. I must point out that the carers— including parents who were aged around 80— were unanimously against their young people being split up and sent to three different centres. They also feared that, if those young people were put among others who had more mental ability than they did, there could be abuse. They were unanimously against the plan in late June and again in August 1999.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5140115+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1854E38P164C707195", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26788, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 590.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 590.0, "ID": 26788, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Godman, Trish", "ID": 1854, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Renfrewshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Trish Godman", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Trish Godman: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 608.0, "ContributionID": 707195, "EditedText": "That is exactly what I am trying to say: it is an extremely difficult thing to do. However, if it is better for the person who is receiving the service, that is what we must do. I understand how a parent who is 80 would be anxious about what might happen to the person who is receiving that service—it happens every time—but Dorothy-Grace's comments this morning against Glasgow City Council were bad, and I do not accept them. That is why I want to put on record the other side of the story. The document deals with education. My constituents in areas such as Kilbarchan, Houston and Bridge of Weir will have the opportunity to claim nursery places for three-year-olds— something that has never happened in those areas, which would never before have been included in such programmes. Constituents in Port Glasgow will benefit from the regeneration of disadvantaged communities, of which, unfortunately, it is one. They will benefit from \"decent, affordable housing\"and from\"high quality local government services which provide customer care, flexibility and choice\". As John McAllion said this morning, no one can object to a drugs enforcement agency when not only all our constituencies but every part of them suffers from the scourge of drug abuse. We must support those initiatives. Elaine Smith's comments on carers were well made. I am involved with carers groups and they welcome their inclusion in the document. The document is a timetable. If the Executive does not keep to the timetable or does not allow appropriate parliamentary debate, those of us in this part of the chamber will hold them to account—Donald has turned round and is smiling at me, but that is what I am here to do. I commend the document.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is exactly what I am trying to say: it is an extremely difficult thing to do. However, if it is better for the person who is receiving the service, that is what we must do. I understand how a parent who is 80 would be anxious about what might happen to the person who is receiving that service—it happens every time—but Dorothy-Grace's comments this morning against Glasgow City Council were bad, and I do not accept them. That is why I want to put on record the other side of the story.

The document deals with education. My constituents in areas such as Kilbarchan, Houston and Bridge of Weir will have the opportunity to claim nursery places for three-year-olds— something that has never happened in those areas, which would never before have been included in such programmes.

Constituents in Port Glasgow will benefit from the regeneration of disadvantaged communities, of which, unfortunately, it is one. They will benefit from

\"decent, affordable housing\"

and from

\"high quality local government services which provide customer care, flexibility and choice\".

As John McAllion said this morning, no one can object to a drugs enforcement agency when not only all our constituencies but every part of them suffers from the scourge of drug abuse. We must support those initiatives. Elaine Smith's comments on carers were well made. I am involved with carers groups and they welcome their inclusion in the document.

The document is a timetable. If the Executive does not keep to the timetable or does not allow appropriate parliamentary debate, those of us in this part of the chamber will hold them to account—Donald has turned round and is smiling at me, but that is what I am here to do. I commend the document.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5140115+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1828E200P487C707196", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26788, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 590.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 590.0, "ID": 26788, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacDonald, Margo", "ID": 1828, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margo MacDonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Margo MacDonald (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 611.0, "ContributionID": 707196, "EditedText": "LikeTrish Godman, I expect to hold the Executive to account. I have found a gem in the document—I will comment on content rather than style. It says: \"Increase the number of doctors and recruit more nurses and introduce more family-friendly policies as part of our overall commitment to retain and to value all NHS staff\". I could not have put it better myself. I congratulate Susan Deacon—I am glad to see that she takes the comment in good spirit, because I want to measure those words against the reality of the decision that she has to make on the provision of paediatric cardiac services. I am aware of the professional advice that is likely to have been given and of the fact that there are only 50 miles between the two existing units. The best practice that the professionals would like us to adopt is for a unit to serve a radius of territory that encompasses about 10 million people—in some parts of the world, particularly north America, where a one-centre system of excellence is operated, those areas can often be more than 50 miles in diameter. When you are making that decision, minister, do not be held fast by the professionals. You say that you want more family-friendly policies. It will not be friendly to any of the families whose children have, unfortunately, been admitted either to the royal hospital for sick children at Yorkhill or to the Edinburgh sick children's hospital if you have to close one unit. I do not underestimate the difficulty of the decision that has to be made and I share your concern that there should be no turf wars, because we should have the best possible service. Mr Reid, I apologise for speaking directly to the minister, but she has the responsibility for ensuring that we have a quality service and that that service is dictated not by the professionals but by need and by what we already have. We have two centres, each with an excellent record and each with competing claims that are very difficult to judge between. In the case of Edinburgh's unit, we know that, if we lose the paediatric cardiac service, we may lose the whole intensive care unit. That is a huge price to pay. I do not imagine that any of my colleagues from Glasgow would want to be forced to take the decision that you, minister, are going to have to take if, as is said, you have already conceded the case for there being only one centre. I hope that you have not conceded that case. The document makes a pledge: \"Increase the number of doctors and recruit more nurses\". I fail to see how that pledge will be met by cutting one unit. The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George", "EditedTextHTML": "Like

Trish Godman, I expect to hold the Executive to account. I have found a gem in the document—I will comment on content rather than style. It says:

\"Increase the number of doctors and recruit more nurses and introduce more family-friendly policies as part of our overall commitment to retain and to value all NHS staff\".

I could not have put it better myself. I congratulate Susan Deacon—I am glad to see that she takes the comment in good spirit, because I want to measure those words against the reality of the decision that she has to make on the provision of paediatric cardiac services.

I am aware of the professional advice that is likely to have been given and of the fact that there are only 50 miles between the two existing units. The best practice that the professionals would like us to adopt is for a unit to serve a radius of territory that encompasses about 10 million people—in some parts of the world, particularly north America, where a one-centre system of excellence is operated, those areas can often be more than 50 miles in diameter.

When you are making that decision, minister, do not be held fast by the professionals. You say that you want more family-friendly policies. It will not be friendly to any of the families whose children have, unfortunately, been admitted either to the royal hospital for sick children at Yorkhill or to the Edinburgh sick children's hospital if you have to close one unit. I do not underestimate the difficulty of the decision that has to be made and I share your concern that there should be no turf wars, because we should have the best possible service.

Mr Reid, I apologise for speaking directly to the minister, but she has the responsibility for ensuring that we have a quality service and that that service is dictated not by the professionals but by need and by what we already have. We have two centres, each with an excellent record and each with competing claims that are very difficult to judge between.

In the case of Edinburgh's unit, we know that, if we lose the paediatric cardiac service, we may lose the whole intensive care unit. That is a huge price to pay. I do not imagine that any of my colleagues from Glasgow would want to be forced to take the decision that you, minister, are going to have to take if, as is said, you have already conceded the case for there being only one centre. I hope that you have not conceded that case. The document makes a pledge:

\"Increase the number of doctors and recruit more nurses\".

I fail to see how that pledge will be met by cutting one unit.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5140115+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1893E47P78C707201", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26788, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 590.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 590.0, "ID": 26788, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnstone, Alex", "ID": 1893, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Johnstone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Johnstone (North-East Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 624.0, "ContributionID": 707201, "EditedText": "I am severely tempted to refer to the photographs in the Government's document, as many members did earlier. I bring to members' attention the photograph of Ross Finnie. As everyone will know, he went to London yesterday to negotiate on behalf of Scotland's sheep producers, with the principled support of the entire Rural Affairs Committee and, I hope, every member of this Parliament. At the end of that meeting, I am sure that he shook hands with Nick Brown. The photograph shows Ross Finnie counting his fingers afterwards. The principle of cross-party support is not universal in this Parliament. George Lyon took a different approach this morning when he raised his hands in the air to proclaim that he was a Liberal Democrat. Given some of his statements, it is difficult for us to believe that he is a Liberal Democrat. The close relationship that seems to have developed between George and the First Minister is as cosy now as it appeared to be when they were both in different jobs. I am the Conservative party's rural affairs spokesman, so I will deal with the parts of this document about rural affairs. I will not go into great depth, but will address a couple of issues briefly. I think that Agenda 2000 will be more significant to the work that this Parliament does on rural affairs than the two references to it in the document suggest. We must remember that the United Kingdom is always accused of over- zealously implementing European regulations. When this Parliament gets the opportunity to consider European legislation—and with Agenda 2000 there will be a great deal of it—we must implement the regulations so as not to disadvantage Scotland's farmers, fishermen and rural dwellers. It is important to remember that standards are not equal across Europe and that the way in which we implement regulations will be crucial for Britain's—and Scotland's—competitive activity in rural areas. The document suggests that there should be an independent appeals mechanism for farmers suffering penalties in relation to their EU subsidies. As far as I know, that proposal was in our manifesto and the Liberal Democrats' manifesto; it also appears in the partnership agreement. Many farmers would desperately like it to be implemented, but I am concerned that the date in the document shows that implementation is at least a year away. Why cannot the time scale be much shorter? Much of what was said this morning—admittedly in reaction to comments from Conservative members—was slightly dangerous and misleading. Rural Scotland is an important part of our country. Those of us who represent rural Scotland—in all parties—realise how important it is to maintain a balance between the rural and the urban. Hugh Henry and John McAllion suggested that the balance was in danger of being tipped too far towards the rural. I urge members to remember that rural Scotland is different and that people there sometimes feel that they are being ignored. I ask members to keep rural Scotland at the forefront of their minds to ensure that we are treated with the same respect as people in urban Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am severely tempted to refer to the photographs in the Government's document, as many members did earlier. I bring to members' attention the photograph of Ross Finnie. As everyone will know, he went to London yesterday to negotiate on behalf of Scotland's sheep producers, with the principled support of the entire Rural Affairs Committee and, I hope, every member of this

Parliament. At the end of that meeting, I am sure that he shook hands with Nick Brown. The photograph shows Ross Finnie counting his fingers afterwards.

The principle of cross-party support is not universal in this Parliament. George Lyon took a different approach this morning when he raised his hands in the air to proclaim that he was a Liberal Democrat. Given some of his statements, it is difficult for us to believe that he is a Liberal Democrat. The close relationship that seems to have developed between George and the First Minister is as cosy now as it appeared to be when they were both in different jobs.

I am the Conservative party's rural affairs spokesman, so I will deal with the parts of this document about rural affairs. I will not go into great depth, but will address a couple of issues briefly.

I think that Agenda 2000 will be more significant to the work that this Parliament does on rural affairs than the two references to it in the document suggest. We must remember that the United Kingdom is always accused of over- zealously implementing European regulations. When this Parliament gets the opportunity to consider European legislation—and with Agenda 2000 there will be a great deal of it—we must implement the regulations so as not to disadvantage Scotland's farmers, fishermen and rural dwellers. It is important to remember that standards are not equal across Europe and that the way in which we implement regulations will be crucial for Britain's—and Scotland's—competitive activity in rural areas.

The document suggests that there should be an independent appeals mechanism for farmers suffering penalties in relation to their EU subsidies. As far as I know, that proposal was in our manifesto and the Liberal Democrats' manifesto; it also appears in the partnership agreement. Many farmers would desperately like it to be implemented, but I am concerned that the date in the document shows that implementation is at least a year away. Why cannot the time scale be much shorter?

Much of what was said this morning—admittedly in reaction to comments from Conservative members—was slightly dangerous and misleading. Rural Scotland is an important part of our country. Those of us who represent rural Scotland—in all parties—realise how important it is to maintain a balance between the rural and the urban. Hugh Henry and John McAllion suggested that the balance was in danger of being tipped too far towards the rural. I urge members to remember that rural Scotland is different and that people there sometimes feel that they are being ignored. I ask members to keep rural Scotland at the forefront of their minds to ensure that we are

treated with the same respect as people in urban Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5140115+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1821E295P538C707203", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26788, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 590.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 590.0, "ID": 26788, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Mrs Margaret", "ID": 1821, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Moray" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Margaret Ewing (Moray) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 629.0, "ContributionID": 707203, "EditedText": "Donald Gorrie says that he would like to see some things pushed further—will he name them?", "EditedTextHTML": "Donald Gorrie says that he would like to see some things pushed further—will he name them?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5140115+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1986E53P206C707208", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26788, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 590.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 590.0, "ID": 26788, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeil, Duncan", "ID": 1986, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Greenock and Inverclyde" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan McNeil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Duncan McNeil (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 640.0, "ContributionID": 707208, "EditedText": "Will Fergus Ewing inform us what the SNP's position is on the penny rise in tax that it proposed?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Fergus Ewing inform us what the SNP's position is on the penny rise in tax that it proposed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5140115+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1931E120P189C707210", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26788, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 590.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 590.0, "ID": 26788, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Muldoon, Bristow", "ID": 1931, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Livingston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bristow Muldoon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bristow Muldoon (Livingston) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 644.0, "ContributionID": 707210, "EditedText": "I wonder whether Fergus Ewing wants to follow Donald Gorrie's example and will place a year's salary on the prediction that he has just made.", "EditedTextHTML": "I wonder whether Fergus Ewing wants to follow Donald Gorrie's example and will place a year's salary on the prediction that he has just made.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5140115+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2223E203P342C707217", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26788, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 590.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 590.0, "ID": 26788, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scott, Tavish", "ID": 2223, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Shetland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tavish Scott", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tavish Scott (Shetland) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 660.0, "ContributionID": 707217, "EditedText": "The purpose of the Parliament is to hold the Executive to account. The programme for government does exactly that. As John McAllion and Hugh Henry said this morning, a timetabled programme, especially with a regular monitoring debate—as John McAllion in particular mentioned—gives the Opposition the opportunity to scrutinise progress. In June, we had a debate on the legislative programme; today, we are having a debate on the programme for government. Both debates have given the Opposition an opportunity to scrutinise progress. The Tories and the SNP have been entertaining at times today, but their front benchers' concentration on the size of the booklet and the quality of the photographs could not be described as the Opposition in scrutiny mode. The programme for government includes many important transport and environment policies, which I will talk about briefly. Parliament has the opportunity to set those policies in action. When addressing transport policy, there is no point in ignoring financial realities. According to the press this morning, the Confederation of British Industry will be told that there is a huge need for public investment in transport. Where will the resources come from? Changing political priorities—across the parties—are reflected in funding for transport. The Scottish Office trunk road capital programme fell from £208 million in 1995 to £104 million in 1998. What are the options for getting funding into transport, which it is broadly agreed is necessary to improve public services? One option is to invest through taxation, but the Tories have demonised tax over the years, so we cannot have a debate on using tax to invest in public services without the kind of advertising campaigns that have appeared at general elections. This morning, the First Minister mentioned the public's cynicism about the political process; it has certainly not been helped by those campaigns. By implication, the SNP and the Conservatives have said that they will cut transport funding. If they are to find funds for transport, they should explain from where in the Scottish block they will take it.", "EditedTextHTML": "The purpose of the Parliament is to hold the Executive to account. The programme for government does exactly that. As John McAllion and Hugh Henry said this morning, a timetabled programme, especially with a regular monitoring debate—as John McAllion in particular mentioned—gives the Opposition the opportunity to scrutinise progress.

In June, we had a debate on the legislative programme; today, we are having a debate on the programme for government. Both debates have given the Opposition an opportunity to scrutinise progress. The Tories and the SNP have been entertaining at times today, but their front benchers' concentration on the size of the booklet and the quality of the photographs could not be described as the Opposition in scrutiny mode.

The programme for government includes many important transport and environment policies, which I will talk about briefly. Parliament has the opportunity to set those policies in action.

When addressing transport policy, there is no point in ignoring financial realities. According to the press this morning, the Confederation of British Industry will be told that there is a huge need for public investment in transport. Where will the resources come from? Changing political priorities—across the parties—are reflected in funding for transport. The Scottish Office trunk road capital programme fell from £208 million in 1995 to £104 million in 1998.

What are the options for getting funding into transport, which it is broadly agreed is necessary to improve public services? One option is to invest through taxation, but the Tories have demonised tax over the years, so we cannot have a debate on using tax to invest in public services without the kind of advertising campaigns that have appeared at general elections. This morning, the First Minister mentioned the public's cynicism about the political process; it has certainly not been helped by those campaigns.

By implication, the SNP and the Conservatives have said that they will cut transport funding. If they are to find funds for transport, they should explain from where in the Scottish block they will take it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5140115+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C707220", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26788, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 590.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 590.0, "ID": 26788, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 666.0, "ContributionID": 707220, "EditedText": "Is the member aware that the Government's principal transport adviser, Mr Begg, acknowledges that no more cars are coming into Edinburgh than 20 years ago? Much of the congestion is caused by the traffic management measures that he imposed.", "EditedTextHTML": "Is the member aware that the Government's principal transport adviser, Mr Begg, acknowledges that no more cars are coming into Edinburgh than 20 years ago? Much of the congestion is caused by the traffic management measures that he imposed.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5140115+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1962E35P56C707223", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26788, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 590.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 590.0, "ID": 26788, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mundell, David", "ID": 1962, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Mundell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David Mundell (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 673.0, "ContributionID": 707223, "EditedText": "I am one of those people who have been calling for the Scottish Executive to listen to business. Behind the spin, there is some evidence that it has been doing so. However, in relation to the production of \"Making it work together\", it is clear that—right down to the pastel shades so beloved of those wanting to create a caring, sharing image—the Executive has been listening to the message from just one section of the community: the marketing men. No doubt seven out of 10 people in a focus group somewhere have said that the shade of burgundy used in the document is both warm and inclusive. As Conservative members would expect, the blue on the cover is the colour of prudence and responsibility, although it must not be too deep a blue in case it is perceived as cold. Then, as we have already heard, there are those photos: half art house, half small child with unsteady hand. From my experience of business, the style of the document is out of date. Not only is the current trend to be environmentally friendly and smaller, really successful organisations include feedback from their customers in their brochures. However, it might be difficult to find a farmer with enough positive feedback on the Government's performance so far to fill the six inches of unused space in the entry by the Minister for Rural Affairs. As Mr Gorrie suggested, the awkward size of the document may not be a mistake. In a short time, it will fit into nobody's filing system and will have to be discarded. Who is the document—produced at the taxpayer's expense—aimed at? It should not be aimed at members of the Parliament; most of us could have managed with a simple e-mail, as could the work force of the Scottish Executive. Surely it cannot be aimed at the people who voted for Labour in the general election, as they have the Labour manifesto. At £4.95, I do not think that it will be read by many members of the public— certainly not the poor and disadvantaged whom the Executive says it wants to help. The only specific audience that I can think of are those poor unfortunate souls who voted Liberal Democrat in the Scottish Parliament elections, because for them it sets out the full catalogue of broken promises: tuition fees, free eye and dental checks, beef-on-the-bone ban, Skye bridge tolls and the end of the private finance initiative. Earlier today, Mr Salmond referred to the film \"Groundhog Day\". He has a point. Given the Executive's performance, a more appropriate film—and indeed its innumerable sequels—might have been \"Rocky\". If we read the Official Report of 16 June, we find that apart from the birth of Duncan McNeil's granddaughter and Keith Raffan's very individual contribution—which we have missed today—nothing new is being said and nothing new is being offered. That is no surprise.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am one of those people who have been calling for the Scottish Executive to listen to business. Behind the spin, there is some evidence that it has been doing so. However, in relation to the production of \"Making it work together\", it is clear that—right down to the pastel shades so beloved of those wanting to create a caring, sharing image—the Executive has been listening to the message from just one section of the community: the marketing men.

No doubt seven out of 10 people in a focus group somewhere have said that the shade of burgundy used in the document is both warm and inclusive. As Conservative members would expect, the blue on the cover is the colour of prudence and responsibility, although it must not be too deep a blue in case it is perceived as cold. Then, as we have already heard, there are those photos: half art house, half small child with unsteady hand.

From my experience of business, the style of the document is out of date. Not only is the current trend to be environmentally friendly and smaller, really successful organisations include feedback from their customers in their brochures. However, it might be difficult to find a farmer with enough positive feedback on the Government's performance so far to fill the six inches of unused space in the entry by the Minister for Rural Affairs.

As Mr Gorrie suggested, the awkward size of the document may not be a mistake. In a short time, it will fit into nobody's filing system and will have to be discarded.

Who is the document—produced at the taxpayer's expense—aimed at? It should not be aimed at members of the Parliament; most of us could have managed with a simple e-mail, as could the work force of the Scottish Executive. Surely it cannot be aimed at the people who voted for Labour in the general election, as they have the Labour manifesto. At £4.95, I do not think that it will be read by many members of the public— certainly not the poor and disadvantaged whom the Executive says it wants to help.

The only specific audience that I can think of are those poor unfortunate souls who voted Liberal Democrat in the Scottish Parliament elections, because for them it sets out the full catalogue of broken promises: tuition fees, free eye and dental checks, beef-on-the-bone ban, Skye bridge tolls and the end of the private finance initiative.

Earlier today, Mr Salmond referred to the film \"Groundhog Day\". He has a point. Given the Executive's performance, a more appropriate film—and indeed its innumerable sequels—might have been \"Rocky\". If we read the Official Report of 16 June, we find that apart from the birth of Duncan McNeil's granddaughter and Keith Raffan's very individual contribution—which we have missed today—nothing new is being said and nothing new is being offered. That is no

surprise.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5140115+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1962E35P56C707225", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26788, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 590.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 590.0, "ID": 26788, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mundell, David", "ID": 1962, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Mundell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David Mundell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 677.0, "ContributionID": 707225, "EditedText": "Are you going to say something new, Jack?", "EditedTextHTML": "Are you going to say something new, Jack?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5140115+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C707226", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26788, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 590.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 590.0, "ID": 26788, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 679.0, "ContributionID": 707226, "EditedText": "Does Mr Mundell agree that the line-by-line timetabling of the 100 commitments in the document is indeed new? If he admitted that, his speech would be far more valid.", "EditedTextHTML": "Does Mr Mundell agree that the line-by-line timetabling of the 100 commitments in the document is indeed new? If he admitted that, his speech would be far more valid.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5140115+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1962E35P56C707229", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26788, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 590.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 590.0, "ID": 26788, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mundell, David", "ID": 1962, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Mundell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David Mundell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 685.0, "ContributionID": 707229, "EditedText": "Are you going to say something new, Iain?", "EditedTextHTML": "Are you going to say something new, Iain?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5140115+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C707234", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26788, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 590.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 590.0, "ID": 26788, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Richard Simpson (Ochil) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 695.0, "ContributionID": 707234, "EditedText": "Will Mr Mundell give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr Mundell give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5140115+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C707249", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26788, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 590.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 590.0, "ID": 26788, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 727.0, "ContributionID": 707249, "EditedText": "I have indicated how well the Scottish economy is performing. I will return to that because it is an important part of the Government's work. Members attacked the photos in the document because they cannot attack the text. It would have been interesting if Alex Salmond had told us which of the commitments on the back cover of the document he supports and which ones he does not, rather than concentrating on the origin of those various commitments. In spite of a lot of fury, froth and allegations of spin, it has been a feature of the debate that members have said precious little about whether they support any or all of the commitments. If they do not support them, what alternatives would they put in their place? With one or two honourable exceptions—", "EditedTextHTML": "I have indicated how well the Scottish economy is performing. I will return to that because it is an important part of the Government's work.

Members attacked the photos in the document because they cannot attack the text. It would have been interesting if Alex Salmond had told us which of the commitments on the back cover of the document he supports and which ones he does not, rather than concentrating on the origin of those various commitments.

In spite of a lot of fury, froth and allegations of spin, it has been a feature of the debate that members have said precious little about whether they support any or all of the commitments. If they do not support them, what alternatives would they put in their place? With one or two honourable exceptions—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5140115+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C707242", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26788, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 590.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 590.0, "ID": 26788, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Rural Affairs (Ross Finnie): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 712.0, "ContributionID": 707242, "EditedText": "Does Mr Swinney agree that substantial changes—in particular the Liberal Democrat pledge that assets would, if necessary, return to the public sector—have already been announced in the operation of PFI? Does that not go a long way to meet the Liberal Democrats' commitment on that issue?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does Mr Swinney agree that substantial changes—in particular the Liberal Democrat pledge that assets would, if necessary, return to the public sector—have already been announced in the operation of PFI? Does that not go a long way to meet the Liberal Democrats' commitment on that issue?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5140115+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2038E191P344C707244", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26788, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 590.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 590.0, "ID": 26788, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Smith, Iain", "ID": 2038, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Iain Smith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Iain Smith rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 716.0, "ContributionID": 707244, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5140115+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C707250", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26788, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 590.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 590.0, "ID": 26788, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 729.0, "ContributionID": 707250, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "

Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5140115+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C707252", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26788, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 590.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 590.0, "ID": 26788, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 733.0, "ContributionID": 707252, "EditedText": "I think that Mrs Scanlon was first.", "EditedTextHTML": "I think that Mrs Scanlon was first.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5140115+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1821E295P538C707257", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26788, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 590.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 590.0, "ID": 26788, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Mrs Margaret", "ID": 1821, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Moray" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Margaret Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 743.0, "ContributionID": 707257, "EditedText": "If the minister is saying that there are times when he disagrees with Labour at Westminster, does he see there being occasions when he may disagree with them in Scotland?", "EditedTextHTML": "If the minister is saying that there are times when he disagrees with Labour at Westminster, does he see there being occasions when he may disagree with them in Scotland?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5140115+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C707260", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26788, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 590.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 590.0, "ID": 26788, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 749.0, "ContributionID": 707260, "EditedText": "I am a democrat and I believe that if there is widespread support across all parties, including Mr McLetchie's, for the measure to be debated, the Parliament would not come out of it well if it tried to frustrate the debate. Mr McLetchie exposed the Conservative party's weak flank—the damage that the previous Conservative Government did to rural Scotland through its mishandling of the BSE crisis. That can be contrasted with our setting up a rural affairs department, which was one of the first acts of this Government. The department, headed by Ross Finnie, was set up to ensure that the wide-ranging issues affecting rural Scotland—not only agriculture, fishing and forestry, but all the other issues germane to the well-being of rural Scotland—came together. The minister is addressing some of the real problems that face Scottish agriculture by bringing forward the industry's marketing plans to stimulate the export market, by trying to secure a private storage scheme and by trying to establish a cull ewe scheme in Scotland. Those initiatives have been widely welcomed by the industry and in the Highlands and Islands. Alex Johnstone, Convener of the Rural Affairs Committee, has also acknowledged the setting up of an independent appeals mechanism for farmers who have complaints or who feel that they have been unfairly penalised in their claims for European subsidies.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am a democrat and I believe that if there is widespread support across all parties, including Mr McLetchie's, for the measure to be debated, the Parliament would not come out of it well if it tried to frustrate the debate.

Mr McLetchie exposed the Conservative party's weak flank—the damage that the previous Conservative Government did to rural Scotland through its mishandling of the BSE crisis. That can be contrasted with our setting up a rural affairs department, which was one of the first acts of this Government. The department, headed by Ross Finnie, was set up to ensure that the wide-ranging issues affecting rural Scotland—not only agriculture, fishing and forestry, but all the other issues germane to the well-being of rural Scotland—came together.

The minister is addressing some of the real problems that face Scottish agriculture by bringing forward the industry's marketing plans to stimulate the export market, by trying to secure a private storage scheme and by trying to establish a cull ewe scheme in Scotland.

Those initiatives have been widely welcomed by the industry and in the Highlands and Islands. Alex Johnstone, Convener of the Rural Affairs Committee, has also acknowledged the setting up of an independent appeals mechanism for farmers who have complaints or who feel that they have been unfairly penalised in their claims for European subsidies.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5140115+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C707266", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26788, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 590.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 590.0, "ID": 26788, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 761.0, "ContributionID": 707266, "EditedText": "As I have said, the first evaluation report of the rough sleepers initiative indicated that the initiative should not be limited to the route that it had already been going down, such as building hostels and providing hostel places, but that it needed to be refocused in order to give more support to people who pass through the hostels. That is being done and the initiative has been refocused. The Executive gives a pledge in \"Making it work together\", a pledge that I am confident that we can meet, which links to our pledges on tackling poverty and promoting a social inclusion strategy. John Swinney asked about targets. The document says: \"We will work in partnership with the UK Government to tackle child poverty and raise over 60,000 children out of poverty in Scotland by 2002.\" The document also refers to the regeneration of Scotland's most deprived neighbourhoods and to the healthy homes initiative, which will give priority to the elderly and those on low incomes. As Duncan McNeil rightly observed, in an intervention during Alex Neil's speech, the most direct route out of poverty is a job. The document also refers to our intentions regarding the promotion of the enterprise culture in Scotland. There is no complacency on jobs and employment. This morning, the First Minister read out a long list of new jobs that have been announced in the past 10 days. The International Labour Organisation's unemployment rate for Scotland is well below the European Union average, and the claimant count is at its lowest since 1976. We believe that an enterprise economy that focuses on the education and skills of our young people is the way forward, in order to ensure that those jobs exist in the future. Nursery places, investment in books and equipment and early intervention in primary schools to improve children's standards of literacy and numeracy all add up to ensuring that we have a well-skilled and educated young population that is able to contribute to Scotland's future prosperity. Sylvia Jackson spoke about the importance of partnership. The document \"Making it work together\" reflects the partnership agreement between the Labour party and the Scottish Liberal Democrats and the partnership that we, as an Executive, want to have with this Parliament and with its committees in implementing many of those measures. We believe that the partnership is important within the United Kingdom in order to ensure that Scotland gets the best deal. Above all, the partnership is with the people of Scotland. Many of us fought and worked for a Scottish Parliament because we believed that, when we had a Parliament that could determine Scotland's domestic agenda, we could make a difference to the lives of the people of Scotland. When the pledges in this document are implemented on the timetable that we have set, they will make a difference to the people of Scotland—a difference for the better. I beg members to support the motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "As I have said, the first evaluation report of the rough sleepers initiative indicated that the initiative should not be limited to the route that it had already been going down, such as building hostels and providing hostel places, but that it needed to be refocused in order to give more support to people who pass through the hostels. That is being done and the initiative has been refocused. The Executive gives a pledge in \"Making it work together\", a pledge that I am confident that we can meet, which links to our pledges on tackling poverty and promoting a social inclusion strategy.

John Swinney asked about targets. The document says:

\"We will work in partnership with the UK Government to tackle child poverty and raise over 60,000 children out of poverty in Scotland by 2002.\"

The document also refers to the regeneration of Scotland's most deprived neighbourhoods and to the healthy homes initiative, which will give priority to the elderly and those on low incomes.

As Duncan McNeil rightly observed, in an intervention during Alex Neil's speech, the most direct route out of poverty is a job. The document also refers to our intentions regarding the promotion of the enterprise culture in Scotland. There is no complacency on jobs and employment. This morning, the First Minister read out a long list of new jobs that have been announced in the past 10 days. The International Labour Organisation's unemployment rate for Scotland is well below the European Union average, and the claimant count is at its lowest since 1976.

We believe that an enterprise economy that focuses on the education and skills of our young people is the way forward, in order to ensure that those jobs exist in the future. Nursery places, investment in books and equipment and early intervention in primary schools to improve children's standards of literacy and numeracy all add up to ensuring that we have a well-skilled and educated young population that is able to contribute to Scotland's future prosperity.

Sylvia Jackson spoke about the importance of partnership. The document \"Making it work together\" reflects the partnership agreement between the Labour party and the Scottish Liberal Democrats and the partnership that we, as an Executive, want to have with this Parliament and with its committees in implementing many of those measures. We believe that the partnership is important within the United Kingdom in order to ensure that Scotland gets the best deal. Above all, the partnership is with the people of Scotland.

Many of us fought and worked for a Scottish Parliament because we believed that, when we had a Parliament that could determine Scotland's domestic agenda, we could make a difference to the lives of the people of Scotland. When the pledges in this document are implemented on the timetable that we have set, they will make a difference to the people of Scotland—a difference for the better.

I beg members to support the motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5140115+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C707271", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Time for Reflection", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26789, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 765.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 765.0, "ID": 26789, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 774.0, "ContributionID": 707271, "EditedText": "I would like to use the lectern. I usually speak without too many notes, but I have some today as the debate is very important. My amendment deletes \"the balance of beliefs\"from Mr McCabe's motion, and calls on the Parliament to commence the week's meetings of the Parliament with a Christian thought and prayer. That is not through bigotry or intolerance, but through my firmly held view that it is everyone's right to follow their religious belief as they choose. Scotland and the United Kingdom's records are exemplary. My wish is that the same religious tolerance be observed throughout the world. I can imagine the reaction in Malaysia, Pakistan, Iran or Jerusalem should it be suggested that Christian prayers be said before their Parliaments' business commenced. I offer no criticism of those countries for treasuring their religious beliefs and practices. My amendment is based not on race but on Scotland's traditional culture and faith. Surely no one in the chamber will deny Scotland's place in the family of Christian nations or, indeed, the worldwide Christian community. The reality of Scotland today is illustrated in the 1991 census, which shows that only 1.3 per cent of the Scottish population is made up of ethnic minorities. Within that, the Chinese community has a large proportion of Christians and there are a number of Asian Christian Churches throughout Scotland. Scotland's Christian faith can be said to date back to the 1st century, when the Roman legions were here. It was not until early in the 5th century that the Celtic Church could be said to have established firm foundations. Scotland's first bishop, St Ninian, established a church in Whithorn and St Mungo established his in Glasgow at that time—just before Columba arrived on Iona in 563. The Celtic Church progressed into the medieval period, when a greater identification with western Christendom developed. That was almost certainly led by Queen Margaret, the wife of Malcolm Canmore of Dunfermline abbey fame. The reformation saw Scotland revert to a more nationally aligned approach to religious observance and that, to an extent, remains today. However, it recognises broader Church interests and is inclusive as a result of the welcome ecumenical movement. Perhaps an indication of the importance that we and other nations place on Christianity is the fact that our calendar is based on the date of Christ's birth. Our main holidays of Christmas and Easter relate to his birth and to his death on the cross. Through the centuries, Scots have travelled the world doing good work and promoting Christ's name with great success. I think of Livingstone and Slessor and, in more recent times, Eric Liddle—who was certainly not prepared to compromise his Christianity. As a Christian—albeit one whose commitment could at times be challenged—I am obliged to agree with the many who have written to me, and I am very thankful to those who wrote letters that I received today. They urge that we should not turn our back on Christian philosophy—that we should not turn our back on the commandments. Surely it must be wrong for any Christian to do other than promote his or her beliefs, and to cut across the very foundation of Christian belief by transgressing the first commandment: \"Thou shalt have no other gods before me.\"I move, as an amendment to motion S1M-131, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, to leave out from \"the balance\" to \"Bureau\" and insert \"the traditional Christian culture and faith of Scotland\".", "EditedTextHTML": "I would like to use the lectern. I usually speak without too many notes, but I have some today as the debate is very important.

My amendment deletes \"the balance of beliefs\"

from Mr McCabe's motion, and calls on the Parliament to commence the week's meetings of the Parliament with a Christian thought and prayer. That is not through bigotry or intolerance, but through my firmly held view that it is everyone's right to follow their religious belief as they choose.

Scotland and the United Kingdom's records are exemplary. My wish is that the same religious tolerance be observed throughout the world. I can imagine the reaction in Malaysia, Pakistan, Iran or Jerusalem should it be suggested that Christian prayers be said before their Parliaments' business commenced.

I offer no criticism of those countries for treasuring their religious beliefs and practices. My amendment is based not on race but on Scotland's traditional culture and faith. Surely no one in the chamber will deny Scotland's place in the family of Christian nations or, indeed, the worldwide Christian community.

The reality of Scotland today is illustrated in the 1991 census, which shows that only 1.3 per cent of the Scottish population is made up of ethnic minorities. Within that, the Chinese community has a large proportion of Christians and there are a number of Asian Christian Churches throughout Scotland.

Scotland's Christian faith can be said to date back to the 1st century, when the Roman legions were here. It was not until early in the 5th century that the Celtic Church could be said to have

established firm foundations. Scotland's first bishop, St Ninian, established a church in Whithorn and St Mungo established his in Glasgow at that time—just before Columba arrived on Iona in 563.

The Celtic Church progressed into the medieval period, when a greater identification with western Christendom developed. That was almost certainly led by Queen Margaret, the wife of Malcolm Canmore of Dunfermline abbey fame.

The reformation saw Scotland revert to a more nationally aligned approach to religious observance and that, to an extent, remains today. However, it recognises broader Church interests and is inclusive as a result of the welcome ecumenical movement.

Perhaps an indication of the importance that we and other nations place on Christianity is the fact that our calendar is based on the date of Christ's birth. Our main holidays of Christmas and Easter relate to his birth and to his death on the cross.

Through the centuries, Scots have travelled the world doing good work and promoting Christ's name with great success. I think of Livingstone and Slessor and, in more recent times, Eric Liddle—who was certainly not prepared to compromise his Christianity.

As a Christian—albeit one whose commitment could at times be challenged—I am obliged to agree with the many who have written to me, and I am very thankful to those who wrote letters that I received today. They urge that we should not turn our back on Christian philosophy—that we should not turn our back on the commandments. Surely it must be wrong for any Christian to do other than promote his or her beliefs, and to cut across the very foundation of Christian belief by transgressing the first commandment:

\"Thou shalt have no other gods before me.\"

I move, as an amendment to motion S1M-131, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, to leave out from \"the balance\" to \"Bureau\" and insert

\"the traditional Christian culture and faith of Scotland\".

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1926E190P479C707273", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Time for Reflection", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26789, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 765.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 765.0, "ID": 26789, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Adam, Brian", "ID": 1926, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Adam", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Brian Adam (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 779.0, "ContributionID": 707273, "EditedText": "I thank Phil Gallie and, in particular, Mr McCabe, given the reservations that he expressed at our first debate on this subject. The measured response that he delivered today was most welcome. I understand Mr Gallie's point of view, but I do not share it. It is difficult, given the correspondence that we have all had from people who hold views strongly and dearly, but the view which suggests that those not of the Christian faith would be welcome to offer prayers and thoughts somewhere other than in the chamber scarcely reflects the inclusive society that we are trying to foster. I do not want us to say to some segments of our society that their faiths are somehow lesser, or that they can express their view in some hole in the corner, somewhere other than in the chamber, while some privileged people are allowed to address the whole nation and the whole Parliament. I regret that there has been such an approach. I know that Mr Gallie is not attempting to divide on sectarian or other grounds—I accept that. In my view, the only way that we can adopt a Christian outlook is to recognise that there are differences. We do not have to accept what others say to us as our own beliefs, but it is only reasonable that we include them and allow them the opportunity to share their beliefs. If we are occasionally called on to accept views that we do not like, we do not have to be present—it is not compulsory. I welcome Mr McCabe's suggestion that we respect the time for reflection and do not walk in and out during it, although I understand the difficulty in enforcement. I welcome Mr McCabe's motion and hope that, despite Mr Gallie's well-meaning personal beliefs, we do not support a view that could be seen as exclusive rather than inclusive.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank Phil Gallie and, in particular, Mr McCabe, given the reservations that he expressed at our first debate on this subject. The measured response that he delivered today was most welcome.

I understand Mr Gallie's point of view, but I do not share it. It is difficult, given the correspondence that we have all had from people who hold views strongly and dearly, but the view which suggests that those not of the Christian faith would be welcome to offer prayers and thoughts somewhere other than in the chamber scarcely reflects the inclusive society that we are trying to foster. I do not want us to say to some segments of our society that their faiths are somehow lesser, or that they can express their view in some hole in the corner, somewhere other than in the chamber, while some privileged people are allowed to address the whole nation and the whole Parliament.

I regret that there has been such an approach. I know that Mr Gallie is not attempting to divide on sectarian or other grounds—I accept that. In my view, the only way that we can adopt a Christian outlook is to recognise that there are differences. We do not have to accept what others say to us as our own beliefs, but it is only reasonable that we include them and allow them the opportunity to share their beliefs. If we are occasionally called on to accept views that we do not like, we do not have to be present—it is not compulsory.

I welcome Mr McCabe's suggestion that we respect the time for reflection and do not walk in and out during it, although I understand the difficulty in enforcement.

I welcome Mr McCabe's motion and hope that, despite Mr Gallie's well-meaning personal beliefs, we do not support a view that could be seen as exclusive rather than inclusive.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1892E34P73C707275", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Time for Reflection", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26789, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 765.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 765.0, "ID": 26789, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Fergusson, Alex", "ID": 1892, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Fergusson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Fergusson (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 785.0, "ContributionID": 707275, "EditedText": "As the member who lodged the original prayers motion, as it became known, I would like to commend the Parliamentary Bureau for coming up with a speedy and, as far as I am concerned, wholly acceptable solution to what must have been a difficult conundrum: how to balance the requirement for what Donald Gorrie called proportional praying in the original debate with the quite understandable traditional desire for Christian-only prayers, as proposed by my colleague, Phil Gallie. I freely confess that that desire has dominated my mailbag by a ratio of some 70:1. I have read and replied to every one of those letters, and have had most of the Bible quoted at me in their text. One quotation was not thrust in my direction. It is the one quotation that should most influence the decision that we are about to take, that we should \"do unto others as you would have them do unto you\". That is a maxim with which I can find no cause to disagree, and which we would do well to adopt as a Parliament. It is, above all, a maxim that promotes tolerance. If we intend to be a tolerant Parliament, as I hope we do, we must allow MSPs who are not of a Christian persuasion a recognised moment of comfort alongside the rest of us before business begins. Whatever form of contemplation is held on a given day will not prevent me or anyone else, as a practising Christian, from finding comfort from my particular god. If there is no other Parliament in the world that has such a practice, I am sorry—so what? To my mind, that is a reason for us to adopt a new, open and welcoming procedure as we enter both a new phase of Scottish democracy and the new millennium. \"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you\": that is not a bad way to live. I support the motion and commend it to the chamber.", "EditedTextHTML": "As the member who lodged the original prayers motion, as it became known, I would like to commend the Parliamentary Bureau for coming up with a speedy and, as far as I am concerned, wholly acceptable solution to what must have been a difficult conundrum: how to balance the

requirement for what Donald Gorrie called proportional praying in the original debate with the quite understandable traditional desire for Christian-only prayers, as proposed by my colleague, Phil Gallie. I freely confess that that desire has dominated my mailbag by a ratio of some 70:1. I have read and replied to every one of those letters, and have had most of the Bible quoted at me in their text.

One quotation was not thrust in my direction. It is the one quotation that should most influence the decision that we are about to take, that we should \"do unto others as you would have them do unto you\". That is a maxim with which I can find no cause to disagree, and which we would do well to adopt as a Parliament. It is, above all, a maxim that promotes tolerance.

If we intend to be a tolerant Parliament, as I hope we do, we must allow MSPs who are not of a Christian persuasion a recognised moment of comfort alongside the rest of us before business begins. Whatever form of contemplation is held on a given day will not prevent me or anyone else, as a practising Christian, from finding comfort from my particular god. If there is no other Parliament in the world that has such a practice, I am sorry—so what? To my mind, that is a reason for us to adopt a new, open and welcoming procedure as we enter both a new phase of Scottish democracy and the new millennium. \"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you\": that is not a bad way to live. I support the motion and commend it to the chamber.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1973E119P326C707279", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Time for Reflection", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26789, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 765.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 765.0, "ID": 26789, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gorrie, Donald", "ID": 1973, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Donald Gorrie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Donald Gorrie (Central Scotland) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 796.0, "ContributionID": 707279, "EditedText": "That is a challenge. I strongly support the motion. It reflects the views that were put forward in the previous debate. I sympathise with the sincere people who somehow feel that we are deserting Christianity. Members and others who are Christians strongly believe that their views are correct: that theirs is the true God, that Christ is their redeemer, and so on. They must accept that other people believe equally strongly in their various faiths. Recognising that does not mean that Christians surrender their faith and go along with the other faiths. People who belong to those other faiths are our fellow citizens and they deserve an opportunity for prayers in proportion to their number—which, as others have said, will arise on fewer occasions than for those from the Church of Scotland or the Roman Catholic faith. We are not deserting our faith; we are recognising their commitment to their faith. We can all learn from the wise statements, prayers and sentiments that are expressed by others. I listen to speeches by members of other parties with whom I strongly disagree, but they believe what they say and they have the right to say it. That is democracy. We are trying to introduce a kind of religious democracy, in which we do not desert our own belief but we recognise other people's beliefs. It is a remarkably civilised concept and I very strongly commend it.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is a challenge. I strongly support the motion. It reflects the views that were put forward in the previous debate. I sympathise with the sincere people who somehow feel that we are deserting Christianity. Members and others who are Christians strongly believe that their views are correct: that theirs is the true God, that Christ is their redeemer, and so on. They must accept that other people believe equally strongly in their various faiths.

Recognising that does not mean that Christians surrender their faith and go along with the other faiths. People who belong to those other faiths are our fellow citizens and they deserve an opportunity for prayers in proportion to their number—which, as others have said, will arise on fewer occasions than for those from the Church of Scotland or the Roman Catholic faith. We are not deserting our faith; we are recognising their commitment to their faith. We can all learn from the wise statements, prayers and sentiments that are expressed by others. I listen to speeches by members of other parties with whom I strongly disagree, but they believe what they say and they have the right to say it. That is democracy. We are trying to introduce a kind of religious democracy, in which we do not desert our own belief but we recognise other people's beliefs. It is a remarkably civilised

concept and I very strongly commend it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2134E160P198C707281", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Time for Reflection", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26789, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 765.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 765.0, "ID": 26789, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McMahon, Michael", "ID": 2134, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton North and Bellshill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael McMahon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Michael McMahon (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 802.0, "ContributionID": 707281, "EditedText": "It is with some trepidation that I rise to speak because, for me, religious practice is a private matter and I guard that privacy carefully. Nevertheless, since I have some concerns that I hope Mr McCabe will be able to answer, I feel compelled to contribute. I agree with the saying that the only difference between the sacrilegious and the sanctimonious is that at least the sacrilegious have a sense of humour. I hope my comments are not seen as either. I hope that when we vote we do it for the right reasons. I agree that if prayers are to form part of the procedure of the Parliament, they must include all denominations in this country. If we are to be representative, so must the prayers. I am concerned, however, that the debate is more about gestures and perceptions than about the actual form of the prayers. If we are to pray together, it should be to our and the country's spiritual benefit; political perceptions must be set aside. As a Christian I would like to refer to teachings of the Bible which guide my views. In Matthew, chapter 6, it says, do not \"parade your uprightness in public\"and\"when you pray, do not imitate the hypocrites: they love to say their prayers … at the street corners for people to see them.\" We are further told to:\"go to your private room\".I am also aware that the Bible teaches us not to judge and I am trying not to do so. If prayer is considered to be a private matter and one that should be left to the Churches, then the motion should be opposed. I do not want to do that, but I am concerned that we have here an attempt to posture and to gesture. I only ask that when we vote we do so for the right reasons and that we vote to make this an inclusive Parliament—I am concerned that that might not be the case. When members vote, please be honest.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is with some trepidation that I rise to speak because, for me, religious practice is a private matter and I guard that privacy carefully. Nevertheless, since I have some concerns that I hope Mr McCabe will be able to answer, I feel compelled to contribute. I agree with the saying that the only difference between the sacrilegious and the sanctimonious is that at least the sacrilegious have a sense of humour. I hope my comments are not seen as either.

I hope that when we vote we do it for the right reasons. I agree that if prayers are to form part of the procedure of the Parliament, they must include all denominations in this country. If we are to be representative, so must the prayers. I am concerned, however, that the debate is more about gestures and perceptions than about the actual form of the prayers. If we are to pray together, it should be to our and the country's spiritual benefit; political perceptions must be set aside.

As a Christian I would like to refer to teachings of the Bible which guide my views. In Matthew, chapter 6, it says, do not

\"parade your uprightness in public\"

and

\"when you pray, do not imitate the hypocrites: they love to say their prayers … at the street corners for people to see them.\"

We are further told to:

\"go to your private room\".

I am also aware that the Bible teaches us not to judge and I am trying not to do so. If prayer is considered to be a private matter and one that should be left to the Churches, then the motion should be opposed. I do not want to do that, but I am concerned that we have here an attempt to posture and to gesture. I only ask that when we vote we do so for the right reasons and that we vote to make this an inclusive Parliament—I am concerned that that might not be the case. When members vote, please be honest.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C707283", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Time for Reflection", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26789, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 765.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 765.0, "ID": 26789, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell (South of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 807.0, "ContributionID": 707283, "EditedText": "I appreciate Michael McMahon's point, which is valid. These prayers will be public, and, as Tom McCabe has said, they will be prayers for the whole of Scotland. We should focus upon the reflection and not on ourselves. It raises also the issue of television coverage and I hope that we do that in a way that focuses on the reflection itself rather than on the members' reflection on the reflection. The bureau has discussed the way in which the reflections might take place—", "EditedTextHTML": "I appreciate Michael McMahon's point, which is valid. These prayers will be public, and, as Tom McCabe has said, they will be prayers for the whole of Scotland. We should focus upon the reflection and not on ourselves. It raises also the issue of television coverage and I hope that we do that in a way that focuses on the reflection itself rather than on the members' reflection on the reflection. The bureau has discussed the way in which the reflections might take place—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C707284", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Time for Reflection", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26789, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 765.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 765.0, "ID": 26789, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister (Donald Dewar): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 809.0, "ContributionID": 707284, "EditedText": "I was interested in what Michael McMahon said and there is a case for private rather than public prayer. I am surprised to hear that this is going to be televised. Is that the implication of what is being said?", "EditedTextHTML": "I was interested in what Michael McMahon said and there is a case for private rather than public prayer. I am surprised to hear that this is going to be televised. Is that the implication of what is being said?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C707286", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Time for Reflection", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26789, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 765.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 765.0, "ID": 26789, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 813.0, "ContributionID": 707286, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C707287", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Time for Reflection", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26789, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 765.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 765.0, "ID": 26789, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 815.0, "ContributionID": 707287, "EditedText": "If Mr Gallie will let me finish my point, I will let him intervene. There is a way to move from toleration to genuine tolerance, and that is to say that, while one may not share other people's views, they must be listened to. This motion is moving Scotland, at last, from a position of toleration to one of tolerance, and that is a position that most of us in this chamber would agree with. This is an inclusive matter. We should be tolerant of other faiths. I will give way to Mr Morgan, because Mr Gallie seems to have given up.", "EditedTextHTML": "If Mr Gallie will let me finish my point, I will let him intervene.

There is a way to move from toleration to genuine tolerance, and that is to say that, while one may not share other people's views, they must be listened to. This motion is moving Scotland, at last, from a position of toleration to one of tolerance, and that is a position that most of us in this chamber would agree with. This is an inclusive matter. We should be tolerant of other faiths.

I will give way to Mr Morgan, because Mr Gallie seems to have given up.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C707291", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Time for Reflection", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26789, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 765.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 765.0, "ID": 26789, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 823.0, "ContributionID": 707291, "EditedText": "Absolutely, and that is the point that I am making, but there is a difference between toleration and tolerance, and I am asking this Parliament to show tolerance. Today, we can show an example of tolerance.", "EditedTextHTML": "Absolutely, and that is the point that I am making, but there is a difference between toleration and tolerance, and I am asking this Parliament to show tolerance. Today, we can show an example of tolerance.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C707292", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Time for Reflection", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26789, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 765.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 765.0, "ID": 26789, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Alex Salmond (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 825.0, "ContributionID": 707292, "EditedText": "This is more than a question of toleration: it is a matter of celebration of unity and diversity. We must not just tolerate: we should be proud of an inclusive approach that is different from that which many institutions have had in the past. It is vitally important that this Parliament supports the bureau's motion by acclamation.", "EditedTextHTML": "This is more than a question of toleration: it is a matter of celebration of unity and diversity. We must not just tolerate: we should be proud of an inclusive approach that is different from that which many institutions have had in the past. It is vitally important that this Parliament supports the bureau's motion by acclamation.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C707293", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Time for Reflection", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26789, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 765.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 765.0, "ID": 26789, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 827.0, "ContributionID": 707293, "EditedText": "As ever, Mr Salmond has anticipated me, because I was going to say that in my last sentence. It makes a change for Mr Salmond to write for me. Laughter. When we move from toleration to tolerance, we end up with celebration. We should be saying to the people of Scotland that this is how we should celebrate our inclusiveness, our new nation and the way that we envision this country. I ask members to support the motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "As ever, Mr Salmond has anticipated me, because I was going to say that in my last sentence. It makes a change for Mr Salmond to write for me. [Laughter.] When we move from toleration to tolerance, we end up with celebration. We should be saying to the people of Scotland that this is how we should celebrate our inclusiveness, our new nation and the way that we envision this country. I ask members to support the motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "C707295", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Commonwealth Parliamentary Association", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26790, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 831.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 831.0, "ID": 26790, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 832.0, "ContributionID": 707295, "EditedText": "Motion moved,", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion moved,

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "C707299", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Commonwealth Parliamentary Association", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26790, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 831.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 831.0, "ID": 26790, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 836.0, "ContributionID": 707299, "EditedText": "The Food Protection (Emergency Prohibitions) (Amnesic Shellfish Poisoning) (West Coast) (Scotland) Order 1999 (SSI 1999/26) and,", "EditedTextHTML": "The Food Protection (Emergency Prohibitions) (Amnesic Shellfish Poisoning) (West Coast) (Scotland) Order 1999 (SSI 1999/26) and,

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "C707302", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Finance and Audit Bill (Lead Committee) ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26791, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 838.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 838.0, "ID": 26791, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 840.0, "ContributionID": 707302, "EditedText": "That the Parliament agrees that the Audit Committee is designated as Lead Committee in consideration of the Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill.—Mr McCabe.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament agrees that the Audit Committee is designated as Lead Committee in consideration of the Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Bill.—[Mr McCabe.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "C707304", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26792, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 841.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 841.0, "ID": 26792, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 844.0, "ContributionID": 707304, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "C707332", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26792, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 841.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 841.0, "ID": 26792, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 887.0, "ContributionID": 707332, "EditedText": "Time for Reflection will follow a pattern based on the balance of beliefs in Scotland; invitations to address the", "EditedTextHTML": "Time for Reflection will follow a pattern based on the balance of beliefs in Scotland; invitations to address the

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "C707306", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26792, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 841.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 841.0, "ID": 26792, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 848.0, "ContributionID": 707306, "EditedText": "FOR Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Crawford, Bruce JP (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)AGAINST Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)(LD)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)ABSTENTIONS Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce JP (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)

AGAINST

Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)
(LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)

ABSTENTIONS

Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C707309", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26792, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 841.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 841.0, "ID": 26792, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 852.0, "ContributionID": 707309, "EditedText": "The second question is, that motion S1M-127, in the name of the First Minister, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "The second question is, that motion S1M-127, in the name of the First

Minister, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C707311", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26792, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 841.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 841.0, "ID": 26792, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 856.0, "ContributionID": 707311, "EditedText": "In that case there will be a division.", "EditedTextHTML": "In that case there will be a division.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "C707312", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26792, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 841.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 841.0, "ID": 26792, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 858.0, "ContributionID": 707312, "EditedText": "FOR Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)(LD)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)AGAINST Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Crawford, Bruce JP (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)
(LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)

AGAINST

Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce JP (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "C707315", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26792, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 841.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 841.0, "ID": 26792, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 862.0, "ContributionID": 707315, "EditedText": "That the Parliament endorses the contents of Making It Work Together: A Programme for Government.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament endorses the contents of Making It Work Together: A Programme for Government.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "C707319", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26792, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 841.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 841.0, "ID": 26792, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 869.0, "ContributionID": 707319, "EditedText": "FOR Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)(LD)Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)AGAINST Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Crawford, Bruce JP (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)ABSTENTIONS Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab) Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP) Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)
(LD)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)

AGAINST

Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Crawford, Bruce JP (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)

ABSTENTIONS

Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C707326", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26792, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 841.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 841.0, "ID": 26792, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 880.0, "ContributionID": 707326, "EditedText": "The result of the division is: For 91, Against 7, Abstentions 13.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result of the division is: For 91, Against 7, Abstentions 13.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "C707328", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26792, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 841.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 841.0, "ID": 26792, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 883.0, "ContributionID": 707328, "EditedText": "That the Parliament agrees that, further to the decision on motion S1M–1 on Prayers, the provision of a Time for Reflection should be as outlined below—", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament agrees that, further to the decision on motion S1M–1 on Prayers, the provision of a Time for Reflection should be as outlined below—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "C707337", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26792, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 841.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 841.0, "ID": 26792, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 893.0, "ContributionID": 707337, "EditedText": "That the Parliament agrees— (a) to apply for admission to membership of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association, such membership to be effective immediately on approval of the application by the General Assembly of Commonwealth Parliamentary Association; (b) to abide by the provisions of the Constitution of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association; (c) the required membership fee be paid to the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association; and (d) that this motion be communicated to the Secretariat of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association immediately following agreement. The Presiding Officer: The sixth question is, that motion S1M-134, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament agrees— (a) to apply for admission to membership of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association, such membership to be effective immediately on approval of the application by the General Assembly of Commonwealth Parliamentary Association; (b) to abide by the provisions of the Constitution of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association; (c) the required membership fee be paid to the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association; and (d) that this motion be communicated to the Secretariat of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association immediately following agreement. The Presiding Officer: The sixth question is, that motion S1M-134, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "C707338", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26792, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 841.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 841.0, "ID": 26792, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 894.0, "ContributionID": 707338, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C707342", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26792, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 841.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 841.0, "ID": 26792, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 898.0, "ContributionID": 707342, "EditedText": "The seventh question is, that motion S1M-139, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "The seventh question is, that motion S1M-139, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "C707343", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26792, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 841.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 841.0, "ID": 26792, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 900.0, "ContributionID": 707343, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C707345", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Clackmannanshire and West Fife (Unemployment) ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26793, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 902.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 902.0, "ID": 26793, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 903.0, "ContributionID": 707345, "EditedText": "We move to the debate on members' business, on motion S1M-116, in the name of Mr Nick Johnston.", "EditedTextHTML": "We move to the debate on members' business, on motion S1M-116, in the name of Mr Nick Johnston.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "C707346", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Clackmannanshire and West Fife (Unemployment) ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26793, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 902.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 902.0, "ID": 26793, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 905.0, "ContributionID": 707346, "EditedText": "Motion debated,", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion debated,

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "C707347", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Clackmannanshire and West Fife (Unemployment) ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26793, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 902.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 902.0, "ID": 26793, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 906.0, "ContributionID": 707347, "EditedText": "That the Parliament calls the Scottish Ministers' attention to the problems of social and economic deprivation caused by escalating unemployment in Clackmannanshire and West Fife.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament calls the Scottish Ministers' attention to the problems of social and economic deprivation caused by escalating unemployment in Clackmannanshire and West Fife.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C707365", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Clackmannanshire and West Fife (Unemployment) ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26793, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 902.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 902.0, "ID": 26793, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Brian Monteith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 947.0, "ContributionID": 707365, "EditedText": "Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer—I did not think that I would be called at all. I thank Nick Johnston for bringing the motion to everyone's attention. Because of the shortage of time, I will rattle through a number of points. We should consider two aspects. The first is macro-economic policy—not just in the Scottish Parliament, but in other bodies—which would help Clackmannanshire and other areas that might become like it. We should work at all levels to encourage free trade to open up new markets that will allow the creation of new jobs. Secondly, we should support the pound. We should reject the concepts of a \"one-interest-ratefixes- all\" policy and the euro. If we were to join the euro, there would certainly be more problems like those in Clackmannanshire. We should also examine the issue of high social costs. There is high unemployment in Germany.We have heard that unemployment has been falling in Clackmannanshire, as indeed it has been in the rest of the UK. That fall in unemployment is a trend that was started by the Conservative Government and taken over by Labour, but I am beginning to suspect that what is now happening in Clackmannanshire represents the reversal of that trend. If we are to ensure that there is no such reversal, we must avoid high social costs, encourage free trade and keep the pound. I also want to touch on micro-economic policy. It is important to bring particular help to Clackmannanshire to allow Forth Valley Enterprise and its partners to improve the transport infrastructure. That will help to bring new work to the area. The Executive should also consider potential planning obstacles to entrepreneurs and businesses in setting up and expanding their ventures. It should consider what can be done to open up competition. Nick's idea about the monopoly of Forth Ports was good: we should consider how we can break down cartels and monopolies that prevent jobs from being created. I thank Nick for bringing the issue to the Parliament's attention. We look forward to trying to do more as a Parliament to help the unemployed in Clackmannanshire.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer—I did not think that I would be called at all.

I thank Nick Johnston for bringing the motion to everyone's attention. Because of the shortage of time, I will rattle through a number of points.

We should consider two aspects. The first is macro-economic policy—not just in the Scottish Parliament, but in other bodies—which would help Clackmannanshire and other areas that might become like it. We should work at all levels to encourage free trade to open up new markets that will allow the creation of new jobs.

Secondly, we should support the pound. We should reject the concepts of a \"one-interest-ratefixes- all\" policy and the euro. If we were to join the euro, there would certainly be more problems like those in Clackmannanshire. We should also examine the issue of high social costs. There is

high unemployment in Germany.

We have heard that unemployment has been falling in Clackmannanshire, as indeed it has been in the rest of the UK. That fall in unemployment is a trend that was started by the Conservative Government and taken over by Labour, but I am beginning to suspect that what is now happening in Clackmannanshire represents the reversal of that trend. If we are to ensure that there is no such reversal, we must avoid high social costs, encourage free trade and keep the pound.

I also want to touch on micro-economic policy. It is important to bring particular help to Clackmannanshire to allow Forth Valley Enterprise and its partners to improve the transport infrastructure. That will help to bring new work to the area.

The Executive should also consider potential planning obstacles to entrepreneurs and businesses in setting up and expanding their ventures. It should consider what can be done to open up competition. Nick's idea about the monopoly of Forth Ports was good: we should consider how we can break down cartels and monopolies that prevent jobs from being created.

I thank Nick for bringing the issue to the Parliament's attention. We look forward to trying to do more as a Parliament to help the unemployed in Clackmannanshire.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C707366", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Clackmannanshire and West Fife (Unemployment) ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26793, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 902.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 902.0, "ID": 26793, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 949.0, "ContributionID": 707366, "EditedText": "I call Nicol Stephen to close the debate. You have five minutes, Mr Stephen.", "EditedTextHTML": "I call Nicol Stephen to close the debate. You have five minutes, Mr Stephen.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2154E194P299C707369", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Clackmannanshire and West Fife (Unemployment) ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26793, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 902.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 902.0, "ID": 26793, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stephen, Nicol", "ID": 2154, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Nicol Stephen", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicol Stephen: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 956.0, "ContributionID": 707369, "EditedText": "I have nearly finished.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have nearly finished.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2154E194P299C707371", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Clackmannanshire and West Fife (Unemployment) ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26793, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 902.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 902.0, "ID": 26793, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stephen, Nicol", "ID": 2154, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Nicol Stephen", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicol Stephen: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 960.0, "ContributionID": 707371, "EditedText": "I see good sense in Tricia Marwick's suggestion and will be happy to raise the issue with the minister. The Executive agrees with the suggestion of encouraging a greater take-up of regional selective assistance in the Clackmannanshire area, in particular. The level of RSA is too low in the area and we need to encourage greater use of that funding. It is a truism to say that both projects and momentum must be created before RSA can be released, but our partnership approach—with contributions from the Executive and from other sources—is the best way to stimulate the economy. I hope that the examples of potential inward investment that I mentioned come to fruition and that other projects will be created. We need to raise the level of RSA. Finally, proposals for the new European funds map are still being considered by the UK Government. Obviously, that is a UK Government responsibility, but it is one of the issues that the First Minister and the Secretary of State for Scotland will discuss. It is important that Clackmannanshire and other parts of Scotland still have access to support through objective 2 European funds. The debate has been good and worth while. It has been held quickly after the recent spate of bad-news stories in the areas that we are discussing. The Scottish Executive wants to work with MPs, MSPs, the public sector and the private sector to address the problems there and in other areas in Scotland that are affected by job losses. I echo the sentiments expressed by Nick Johnston: I hope that this is one area where all parties can work together to secure more jobs for Scotland and for the areas that we discussed.", "EditedTextHTML": "I see good sense in Tricia Marwick's suggestion and will be happy to raise the issue with the minister.

The Executive agrees with the suggestion of encouraging a greater take-up of regional selective assistance in the Clackmannanshire area, in particular. The level of RSA is too low in the area and we need to encourage greater use of that funding. It is a truism to say that both projects and momentum must be created before RSA can be released, but our partnership approach—with contributions from the Executive and from other sources—is the best way to stimulate the economy. I hope that the examples of potential inward investment that I mentioned come to fruition and that other projects will be created. We need to raise the level of RSA.

Finally, proposals for the new European funds map are still being considered by the UK Government. Obviously, that is a UK Government responsibility, but it is one of the issues that the First Minister and the Secretary of State for Scotland will discuss. It is important that Clackmannanshire and other parts of Scotland still have access to support through objective 2 European funds.

The debate has been good and worth while. It has been held quickly after the recent spate of bad-news stories in the areas that we are discussing. The Scottish Executive wants to work with MPs, MSPs, the public sector and the private sector to address the problems there and in other areas in Scotland that are affected by job losses. I echo the sentiments expressed by Nick Johnston: I hope that this is one area where all parties can work together to secure more jobs for Scotland and for the areas that we discussed.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:12.5296367+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706913", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Thursday 9 September 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26762, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26762, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 2.0, "ContributionID": 706913, "EditedText": "THE PRESIDING OFFICER opened the meeting at 09:30", "EditedTextHTML": "[THE PRESIDING OFFICER opened the meeting at 09:30]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C706915", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister (Donald Dewar): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 7.0, "ContributionID": 706915, "EditedText": "The document \"Making it work together\", with which most members of the Parliament will be familiar, brings together radical promises that lie at the heart of the partnership in government. It is a pledge to the people of Scotland that members of the Executive will work together for them. The document is exciting, innovative and original. It is certainly more innovative, original and exciting than the best charge our opponents can find to lay against it. On this morning's broadcasts, I heard that it was a relaunch; I fear that that is confirmation of the awful predictability of Oppositions through the ages. I know all about opposition. I relish the challenges of government, and that is what this document is about. It sets out a framework—more accurately, a timetable—for action across a sweep of policy. In it, we set out not just our intentions and our pledges, but a programme for delivery. That is what makes it different. We are telling the people what we will do and when we will do it. It is—if you like—a yardstick against which future progress can be measured. Who knows, in that sense it may even be useful for the Opposition. That is a risk that I am happy to take and I welcome it, because risks are often worth taking. I am determined to deliver on our promises. Why take on such a challenge? I will say a word or two about that. The electorate deserve it. The state of politics demands it. We all know and have suffered from the unease and cynicism about our trade; that should worry us. We see the evidence of it in falling turnouts. People tell us that they never vote for politicians because it only encourages them. For the people, there are few signs of the guinea's stamp. The situation is reinforced by the feeling that promises produced with a flourish under electoral pressure often blur with the passage of time and finally drop away into a political limbo. Over the years, unspecific, ill-defined promises, which are soon forgotten, have corroded public confidence in the political process. We want to reverse the process that has led to that decline in confidence. This document is an attempt to stand against cynicism and fudge. That is what people voted for when they voted for the Parliament. The programme has big themes: the fight against poverty and the need to unlock opportunity and to raise standards. Themes and aspirations are not enough, however. On their own, they are no more than political mood music. Without specifics, they are not challenging. I suspect that everyone here would sign up for hopes and ambitions, but what the public—understandably—want to know is how things will be done and when they will happen. This document attempts to answer those questions. It is not exhaustive—much more will be done over the next year or two—but it sets out the core of an agenda for change. I would never accuse the nationalists of being devoid of style; I leave that to others. Even the most unlikely sources can have occasional eloquence. The public prints have been reporting that the Scottish National party group's standing orders ban inappropriate comments to the press. Apparently, he or she who is guilty will be banned from speaking to the press, and a repeated offence can lead to expulsion from the group. It does sound a little draconian, but I noticed in the prints the other day that the SNP chief whip, Bruce Crawford, said that every organisation he had ever worked in had had a disciplinary code. I do not disagree with that, but when it was put to Mr Crawford that the new rules could be used to dump MSPs who did not obey the party hierarchy, he said: \"My understanding is that it would be the same as if an MSP fell under a bus. They would be replaced by the next name on the list.\" That is smashing; it is the matter-of-fact style, reminiscent of the late J Stalin, that turns me on. What I found particularly disappointing is the SNP amendment before us today, which—I say this as a serious point—seems to be the worst sort of yah-boo, old-style politics, calling to mind the literary efforts of Michael Howard and Peter Lilley.", "EditedTextHTML": "The document \"Making it work together\", with which most members of the Parliament will be familiar, brings together radical promises that lie at the heart of the partnership in government. It is a pledge to the people of Scotland that members of the Executive will work together for them.

The document is exciting, innovative and original. It is certainly more innovative, original and exciting than the best charge our opponents can find to lay against it. On this morning's broadcasts, I heard that it was a relaunch; I fear that that is confirmation of the awful predictability of Oppositions through the ages. I know all about opposition. I relish the challenges of government, and that is what this document is about.

It sets out a framework—more accurately, a timetable—for action across a sweep of policy. In it, we set out not just our intentions and our pledges, but a programme for delivery. That is what makes it different. We are telling the people what we will do and when we will do it. It is—if you like—a yardstick against which future progress can be measured. Who knows, in that sense it may even be useful for the Opposition. That is a risk that I am happy to take and I welcome it, because risks are often worth taking. I am determined to deliver on our promises.

Why take on such a challenge? I will say a word or two about that. The electorate deserve it. The state of politics demands it. We all know and have suffered from the unease and cynicism about our trade; that should worry us. We see the evidence of it in falling turnouts. People tell us that they never vote for politicians because it only encourages them. For the people, there are few signs of the guinea's stamp.

The situation is reinforced by the feeling that promises produced with a flourish under electoral pressure often blur with the passage of time and finally drop away into a political limbo. Over the years, unspecific, ill-defined promises, which are soon forgotten, have corroded public confidence in the political process.

We want to reverse the process that has led to that decline in confidence. This document is an attempt to stand against cynicism and fudge. That is what people voted for when they voted for the Parliament. The programme has big themes: the fight against poverty and the need to unlock opportunity and to raise standards.

Themes and aspirations are not enough, however. On their own, they are no more than political mood music. Without specifics, they are not challenging. I suspect that everyone here would sign up for hopes and ambitions, but what the public—understandably—want to know is how things will be done and when they will happen. This document attempts to answer those questions. It is not exhaustive—much more will be done over the next year or two—but it sets out the core of an agenda for change.

I would never accuse the nationalists of being devoid of style; I leave that to others. Even the most unlikely sources can have occasional eloquence. The public prints have been reporting that the Scottish National party group's standing orders ban inappropriate comments to the press. Apparently, he or she who is guilty will be banned from speaking to the press, and a repeated offence can lead to expulsion from the group. It does sound a little draconian, but I noticed in the prints the other day that the SNP chief whip, Bruce Crawford, said that every organisation he had ever worked in had had a disciplinary code.

I do not disagree with that, but when it was put to Mr Crawford that the new rules could be used to dump MSPs who did not obey the party hierarchy, he said:

\"My understanding is that it would be the same as if an MSP fell under a bus. They would be replaced by the next name on the list.\"

That is smashing; it is the matter-of-fact style, reminiscent of the late J Stalin, that turns me on. What I found particularly disappointing is the SNP amendment before us today, which—I say this as a serious point—seems to be the worst sort of yah-boo, old-style politics, calling to mind the literary efforts of Michael Howard and Peter Lilley.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C706917", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 11.0, "ContributionID": 706917, "EditedText": "If I ever wanted evidence for the defence, that is it. The amendment is the worst of Westminster. I believe—perhaps naively—that Parliament's job is to scrutinise the Government's plans. The nationalists complain when those plans are made available for scrutiny; that is perverse. Mr Salmond refers hopefully to a floundering coalition—good, constructive, thoughtful stuff. If the partnership was in that state—and fortunately it is not—I can think of nothing more likely to unite its component parts than the mess of nonsense that he has served up for us today. The amendment asks us to use\"Scotland's resources to tackle poverty, lack of opportunity and unemployment\". That is exactly what we propose. Mr Salmond is entitled—and I understand that it would be a great temptation to him—to quarrel with the strategic balance, but it deserves at least some serious consideration and debate. I hope that that is what it gets.", "EditedTextHTML": "If I ever wanted evidence for the defence, that is it.

The amendment is the worst of Westminster. I believe—perhaps naively—that Parliament's job is to scrutinise the Government's plans. The nationalists complain when those plans are made available for scrutiny; that is perverse.

Mr Salmond refers hopefully to a floundering coalition—good, constructive, thoughtful stuff. If the partnership was in that state—and fortunately it is not—I can think of nothing more likely to unite its component parts than the mess of nonsense that he has served up for us today.

The amendment asks us to use

\"Scotland's resources to tackle poverty, lack of opportunity and unemployment\".

That is exactly what we propose. Mr Salmond is entitled—and I understand that it would be a great temptation to him—to quarrel with the strategic balance, but it deserves at least some serious consideration and debate. I hope that that is what it gets.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C706920", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 17.0, "ContributionID": 706920, "EditedText": "Given Mr Dewar's statements in Westminster in the past, Conservatives welcome the fact that he has now hung up his ideological thinking on private finance. That is a great conversion.", "EditedTextHTML": "Given Mr Dewar's statements in Westminster in the past, Conservatives welcome the fact that he has now hung up his ideological thinking on private finance. That is a great conversion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C706926", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 29.0, "ContributionID": 706926, "EditedText": "Sorry.", "EditedTextHTML": "Sorry.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C706936", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 50.0, "ContributionID": 706936, "EditedText": "I am always delighted to receive compliments; I am not often called poised. Laughter. There was never any suggestion that the policies were new. What the document does is this: it takes the partnership pledges and puts them into a time framework. If Mr Salmond does not think that it matters to people when things are going to be delivered and when actions are going to be taken, he is in a minority. Could he answer a simple question? If this document is so commonplace and pointless, does he know of any precedent of a government producing the same sort of timetable?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am always delighted to receive compliments; I am not often called poised. [Laughter.]

There was never any suggestion that the policies were new. What the document does is this: it takes the partnership pledges and puts them into a time framework. If Mr Salmond does not think that it matters to people when things are going to be delivered and when actions are going to be taken, he is in a minority. Could he answer a simple question? If this document is so commonplace and pointless, does he know of any precedent of a government producing the same sort of timetable?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C706937", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 52.0, "ContributionID": 706937, "EditedText": "I am going to do exactly that over the next few minutes. Mr Dewar said that he never claimed that the document was something new, but he started his speech today by saying that it was original. I noted it down—he started by saying that it was original. Something original usually means something new. I would like to examine the document's 10 key pledges, which are helpfully listed at the back of the tabloid version. Incidentally, none of the 10 key pledges is a Liberal pledge, as we are about to demonstrate. The first pledge is on modern apprenticeships, and I think that it will have widespread support. It says: \"By the end of 1999 there will be places for 10,000 Modern Apprentices in Scotland.\"", "EditedTextHTML": "I am going to do exactly that over the next few minutes. Mr Dewar said that he never claimed that the document was something new, but he started his speech today by saying that it was original. I noted it down—he started by saying that it was original. Something original usually means something new.

I would like to examine the document's 10 key pledges, which are helpfully listed at the back of the tabloid version. Incidentally, none of the 10 key pledges is a Liberal pledge, as we are about to demonstrate.

The first pledge is on modern apprenticeships, and I think that it will have widespread support. It says:

\"By the end of 1999 there will be places for 10,000 Modern Apprentices in Scotland.\"

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C706939", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 56.0, "ContributionID": 706939, "EditedText": "In a few minutes, after I have discussed the ten points in the document, I will give way to Mr Gallie—although I have to say that, because in his first intervention Mr Gallie came in with support for the First Minister, to his obvious embarrassment, I am wary of him coming in and supporting me. Laughter. The trouble with that pledge on modern apprenticeships is that, on 28 October 1998, exactly the same pledge was made by the Scottish Office minister Mrs Helen Liddell—remember her? The next pledge is on new businesses:\"We will help to create 40,000 new Scottish businesses by 2003\" and \"100,000 new businesses by 2009.\"When I worked in economics, there was always a preference for long-term forecasts, on the basis that the longer the term of the forecast, the fewer people would remember what the forecast had been. The pledge equates to 10,000 new businesses a year. The trouble with that is that, on 19 June 1998, the First Minister, when he was Scottish secretary, said that he wanted 100,000 new businesses by 2008. All that has happened is that the pledge has been moved back a year. Have we had 10,000 new businesses created by the Government in the past year? The First Minister screws up his face, but if that was a pledge—100,000 new business to be created by the Government—we should have had 10,000 new businesses, created by the Government, in operation since the commitment was first announced in June last year. Next is the pledge on the Scottish drug enforcement agency. There is a lot of good will to maintain the cross-party consensus in tackling the drugs problem in Scotland; but the pledge in the document is a development of the drugs enforcement programme that was announced in November 1998. The pledge has good will, but it is not novel, it is not original. On schools, there is a pledge to provide\"100 new or refurbished school buildings during the lifetime of the Parliament.\" In November 1998, the First Minister in his previous incarnation announced a programme giving money to eight local authorities for 70 schools. Incidentally, 100 schools represents 3 per cent of the number of school buildings in the whole of Scotland. The next pledge is that the Government\"will ensure a nursery place for every 3 year old whose parent wants it by 2002.\" That was announced in the comprehensive spending review, just a few days after the Scottish National party, in constructive vein, had made the same commitment, and three years after the Liberals had made the same commitment. I think that the Deputy First Minister is about to claim that this pledge is the Liberal input to the Government's programme. On hospitals we read that\"8 major new hospital developments will open between 2001 and 2003.\" On 30 April 1998, the Scottish secretary, Donald Dewar, announced that eight new hospital projects worth £450 million had been given the go-ahead. We have had a very constructive debate on public health, but the pledge on healthy living centres—No 7 on the list of key commitments— was issued by the health department in a press release on 30 December 1997. There is a pledge on homelessness:\"We will ensure that no-one has to sleep rough by 2003, by providing new accommodation and better support services.\" Six months ago, the then Scottish Office minister Calum Macdonald made the same commitment, except he said that no one would have to sleep rough by 2002. The only change has been that, over the past few months, the programme has slipped by a year. Exactly the same pledge as is contained in the proposal for land reform was made by the then Secretary of State for Scotland and by me, on the same day, on 4 September 1998. The last of the 10 key pledges, on natural heritage, was first announced on 2 February of this year. The only difference is that the February announcement stated that the national park was to be operational by April 2001, not summer 2001, as is stated in this document. I am not doing this to decry the 10 pledges; I just resent them being announced as some major innovation, when every single one of them has been previously announced. Two or three years ago there was a very popular film, which involved somebody being condemned to go through the same day time and time again. What we have here is the Groundhog programme—the same programme re-released and re-spun for public relations hype purposes. There is nothing wrong with some of the contents, but let us not kid on the people that they are novel, exciting and new.", "EditedTextHTML": "In a few minutes, after I have discussed the ten points in the document, I will give way to Mr Gallie—although I have to say that, because in his first intervention Mr Gallie came in with support for the First Minister, to his obvious embarrassment, I am wary of him coming in and supporting me. [Laughter.]

The trouble with that pledge on modern apprenticeships is that, on 28 October 1998, exactly the same pledge was made by the Scottish Office minister Mrs Helen Liddell—remember her?

The next pledge is on new businesses:

\"We will help to create 40,000 new Scottish businesses by 2003\" and

\"100,000 new businesses by 2009.\"

When I worked in economics, there was always a preference for long-term forecasts, on the basis that the longer the term of the forecast, the fewer people would remember what the forecast had been. The pledge equates to 10,000 new businesses a year. The trouble with that is that, on 19 June 1998, the First Minister, when he was Scottish secretary, said that he wanted 100,000 new businesses by 2008. All that has happened is that the pledge has been moved back a year. Have we had 10,000 new businesses created by the Government in the past year? The First Minister screws up his face, but if that was a pledge—100,000 new business to be created by the Government—we should have had 10,000 new businesses, created by the Government, in operation since the commitment was first announced in June last year.

Next is the pledge on the Scottish drug enforcement agency. There is a lot of good will to maintain the cross-party consensus in tackling the drugs problem in Scotland; but the pledge in the document is a development of the drugs enforcement programme that was announced in November 1998. The pledge has good will, but it is not novel, it is not original.

On schools, there is a pledge to provide

\"100 new or refurbished school buildings during the lifetime of the Parliament.\"

In November 1998, the First Minister in his previous incarnation announced a programme giving money to eight local authorities for 70 schools. Incidentally, 100 schools represents 3 per cent of the number of school buildings in the whole of Scotland.

The next pledge is that the Government

\"will ensure a nursery place for every 3 year old whose parent wants it by 2002.\"

That was announced in the comprehensive spending review, just a few days after the Scottish National party, in constructive vein, had made the same commitment, and three years after the Liberals had made the same commitment. I think that the Deputy First Minister is about to claim that this pledge is the Liberal input to the Government's programme.

On hospitals we read that

\"8 major new hospital developments will open between 2001 and 2003.\"

On 30 April 1998, the Scottish secretary, Donald Dewar, announced that eight new hospital projects worth £450 million had been given the go-ahead.

We have had a very constructive debate on public health, but the pledge on healthy living centres—No 7 on the list of key commitments— was issued by the health department in a press release on 30 December 1997.

There is a pledge on homelessness:

\"We will ensure that no-one has to sleep rough by 2003, by providing new accommodation and better support services.\"

Six months ago, the then Scottish Office minister Calum Macdonald made the same commitment, except he said that no one would have to sleep rough by 2002. The only change has been that, over the past few months, the programme has slipped by a year.

Exactly the same pledge as is contained in the proposal for land reform was made by the then Secretary of State for Scotland and by me, on the same day, on 4 September 1998.

The last of the 10 key pledges, on natural heritage, was first announced on 2 February of this year. The only difference is that the February announcement stated that the national park was to be operational by April 2001, not summer 2001, as is stated in this document.

I am not doing this to decry the 10 pledges; I just resent them being announced as some major innovation, when every single one of them has been previously announced.

Two or three years ago there was a very popular film, which involved somebody being condemned to go through the same day time and time again. What we have here is the Groundhog programme—the same programme re-released and re-spun for public relations hype purposes. There is nothing wrong with some of the contents, but let us not kid on the people that they are novel, exciting and new.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C706941", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 60.0, "ContributionID": 706941, "EditedText": "An invitation to agree with Mr Gallie. I met Mr Gallie's cousin last week, playing a round of golf on the Jubilee course at St Andrews. Mr Gallie's cousin thinks very well of him, but he is a solid SNP voter.", "EditedTextHTML": "An invitation to agree with Mr Gallie. I met Mr Gallie's cousin last week, playing a round of golf on the Jubilee course at St Andrews. Mr Gallie's cousin thinks very well of him, but he is a solid SNP voter.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C706943", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 64.0, "ContributionID": 706943, "EditedText": "None the less, Mr Gallie brings me on to a point that I think is worth making. It is not just that those commitments have previously been made by the Labour party: as I am about to demonstrate, the very centrepiece of those commitments had previously been announced by another person altogether. How do I know that it is the centrepiece? Again I refer to the Daily Record website.", "EditedTextHTML": "None the less, Mr Gallie brings me on to a point that I think is worth making. It is not just that those commitments have previously been made by the Labour party: as I am about to demonstrate, the very centrepiece of those commitments had previously been announced by another person altogether. How do I know that it is the centrepiece? Again I refer to the Daily Record website.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706945", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 68.0, "ContributionID": 706945, "EditedText": "You tempt me, MrMcLetchie, but I will call Mr Salmond to reply.", "EditedTextHTML": "You tempt me, Mr

McLetchie, but I will call Mr Salmond to reply.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C706947", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Finance (Mr Jack McConnell): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 72.0, "ContributionID": 706947, "EditedText": "Did the SNP vote for the minimum wage?", "EditedTextHTML": "Did the SNP vote for the minimum wage?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C706948", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 74.0, "ContributionID": 706948, "EditedText": "Yes, we did vote for it, but I want to leave that issue to one side. I want to compliment the Parliament's researchers for reminding us of the statistics on poverty. If we define poverty as half the average income after housing costs, 1.2 million people in Scotland—25 per cent of the population—live in poor households. Poverty is greatest among children: 34 per cent of all children—41 per cent of whom are under five years old—live in poverty. Furthermore, using the same definition, 29 per cent of pensioners also live in poverty. Yes, Rome was not built in a day and measures in the programme must be given time to come to fruition. However, current statistics indicate that the poverty gap, instead of closing, has been widening over the past few years. There is evidence to support that view. The Liberal Democrat party in Hamilton has made a declaration about measures that the Labour party has taken to oppress the poor and vulnerable in that constituency.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes, we did vote for it, but I want to leave that issue to one side.

I want to compliment the Parliament's researchers for reminding us of the statistics on poverty. If we define poverty as half the average income after housing costs, 1.2 million people in

Scotland—25 per cent of the population—live in poor households. Poverty is greatest among children: 34 per cent of all children—41 per cent of whom are under five years old—live in poverty. Furthermore, using the same definition, 29 per cent of pensioners also live in poverty.

Yes, Rome was not built in a day and measures in the programme must be given time to come to fruition. However, current statistics indicate that the poverty gap, instead of closing, has been widening over the past few years. There is evidence to support that view. The Liberal Democrat party in Hamilton has made a declaration about measures that the Labour party has taken to oppress the poor and vulnerable in that constituency.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706952", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 82.0, "ContributionID": 706952, "EditedText": "I am sorry. We will not have any more interventions; Mr Salmond is coming to a close. Interruption. We are well over the time that has been agreed, so will Mr Salmond please press on?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry. We will not have any more interventions; Mr Salmond is coming to a close. [Interruption.] We are well over the time that has been agreed, so will Mr Salmond please press on?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C706956", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie (Lothians) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 91.0, "ContributionID": 706956, "EditedText": "I welcome the opportunity to debate the second Labour party political manifesto of the year. The only difference is that this document has been published at the taxpayer's expense, rather than at the expense of Lord Sainsbury, who is busy racking up his own reward points with the Labour party. I am sure that many of us would welcome a limit on the number of manifestos that a party can publish in a year, but that is probably the only new bit of red tape and regulation that Labour would not support. Like Mr Salmond, I am impressed by the document's design standards, which are very much what we have come to expect from the post- Mandelson Labour party. I was particularly touched by the gem of a picture of the First Minister at work, filling in his pools coupon. He looks amazingly dishevelled compared with his normal smart appearance in the chamber. His shirt is creased, his tie is squint and his sleeves are rolled up in a contender for photographic cliché of the year. However, I found it very alarming that we could see right through his head to the venetian blind behind him, until I realised that that is a photographic metaphor for the openness and transparency of government to which he is committed. Alex Salmond also drew attention to the other photographic gem of the Deputy First Minister. Alex wondered why Jim Wallace is out of focus; I can tell him that it is because the picture has been touched up. We can see that Jim Wallace has his hands out, but we cannot see the handcuffs. The police officers in the photograph are actually questioning him about why, under Labour, the number of police officers is being cut when crime is rising. The Minister for Justice is proffering his standard defence, \"It wisnae me.\" The document gives clear and incontrovertible evidence that all the worst aspects of the new Labour project that we have seen at Westminster are to be fully replicated in the Scottish Parliament. There will be no aim beyond the maintenance and exercise of power and decisions will be made for the sake of news management and of policy driven by focus groups. In the past, we have been led to believe by the First Minister's advisers that the First Minister is a politician of the old school, who has no time for spin-doctors or the soundbite culture. He is a man who values thoughtful and reasoned debate in which politicians can put forward carefully crafted programmes based on substance. If all that is true, the First Minister must be deeply embarrassed by the document. Far from being a groundbreaking development in ministerial accountability, it is—as Mr Salmond rightly said—a lot of meaningless PR hype, which has been published to try to relaunch the Executive after its stumbling start over the summer.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the opportunity to debate the second Labour party political manifesto of the year. The only difference is that this document has been published at the taxpayer's expense, rather than at the expense of Lord Sainsbury, who is busy racking up his own reward points with the Labour party. I am sure that many of us would welcome a limit on the number of manifestos that a party can publish in a year, but that is probably the only new bit of red tape and regulation that Labour would not support.

Like Mr Salmond, I am impressed by the document's design standards, which are very much what we have come to expect from the post- Mandelson Labour party. I was particularly touched by the gem of a picture of the First Minister at work, filling in his pools coupon. He looks amazingly dishevelled compared with his normal smart appearance in the chamber. His shirt is creased, his tie is squint and his sleeves are rolled up in a contender for photographic cliché of the year. However, I found it very alarming that we could see right through his head to the venetian blind behind him, until I realised that that is a photographic metaphor for the openness and transparency of government to which he is committed.

Alex Salmond also drew attention to the other photographic gem of the Deputy First Minister. Alex wondered why Jim Wallace is out of focus; I can tell him that it is because the picture has been touched up. We can see that Jim Wallace has his hands out, but we cannot see the handcuffs. The police officers in the photograph are actually questioning him about why, under Labour, the number of police officers is being cut when crime is rising. The Minister for Justice is proffering his standard defence, \"It wisnae me.\"

The document gives clear and incontrovertible evidence that all the worst aspects of the new Labour project that we have seen at Westminster are to be fully replicated in the Scottish Parliament. There will be no aim beyond the maintenance and exercise of power and decisions will be made for the sake of news management and of policy driven by focus groups.

In the past, we have been led to believe by the First Minister's advisers that the First Minister is a politician of the old school, who has no time for spin-doctors or the soundbite culture. He is a man who values thoughtful and reasoned debate in which politicians can put forward carefully crafted programmes based on substance.

If all that is true, the First Minister must be deeply embarrassed by the document. Far from being a groundbreaking development in ministerial accountability, it is—as Mr Salmond rightly said—a lot of meaningless PR hype, which has been published to try to relaunch the Executive after its stumbling start over the summer.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C706965", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 109.0, "ContributionID": 706965, "EditedText": "We have only to consider the analyses in the newspapers of support for this issue. Is the First Minister against Mr Watson's bill? We should be interested to know. Scotland's countryside awaits the answer; do tell the chamber.", "EditedTextHTML": "We have only to consider the analyses in the newspapers of support for this issue. Is the First Minister against Mr Watson's bill? We should be interested to know. Scotland's countryside awaits the answer; do tell the chamber.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C706966", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 111.0, "ContributionID": 706966, "EditedText": "As it happens, I am opposed to fox hunting and I have always said that, so Mr McLetchie will not get a great coup. Does he condemn John Young, his colleague on the back benches who is sponsoring Mike Watson's bill? Is he by definition against the countryside because of that view and is he someone who is interested in vilifying and downgrading the countryside? If that is so, why is he on the Conservative benches?", "EditedTextHTML": "As it happens, I am opposed to fox hunting and I have always said that, so Mr McLetchie will not get a great coup. Does he condemn John Young, his colleague on the back benches who is sponsoring Mike Watson's bill? Is he by definition against the countryside because of that view and is he someone who is interested in vilifying and downgrading the countryside? If that is so, why is he on the Conservative benches?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C706963", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ross Finnie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 105.0, "ContributionID": 706963, "EditedText": "Does Mr McLetchie agree thatthere is not one scintilla of evidence that the Executive has in any way put fox hunting at the top of its priorities? No one in the Executive has made a statement suggesting that. Does he further agree that the part of the programme that relates to rural development will be of constructive benefit for rural Scotland?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does Mr McLetchie agree that

there is not one scintilla of evidence that the Executive has in any way put fox hunting at the top of its priorities? No one in the Executive has made a statement suggesting that. Does he further agree that the part of the programme that relates to rural development will be of constructive benefit for rural Scotland?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C706964", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 107.0, "ContributionID": 706964, "EditedText": "The Executive is stuffed full of members of the Labour party. I think that, when asked for their views on Mr Watson's bill, most members of the Labour party have indicated their support and assent for it. There seems to be far more support and enthusiasm— Members indicated disagreement.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Executive is stuffed full of members of the Labour party. I think that, when asked for their views on Mr Watson's bill, most members of the Labour party have indicated their support and assent for it. There seems to be far more support and enthusiasm—

Members indicated disagreement.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C706971", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 121.0, "ContributionID": 706971, "EditedText": "Labour forgot about and abandoned them.", "EditedTextHTML": "Labour forgot about and abandoned them.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C706973", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 125.0, "ContributionID": 706973, "EditedText": "Rubbish.", "EditedTextHTML": "Rubbish.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C706977", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 133.0, "ContributionID": 706977, "EditedText": "On a point of order, Mr Reid. We all heard Mr Gallie's intervention and while he may be allowed to think that, I would have thought that he would not be allowed to say it.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order, Mr Reid. We all heard Mr Gallie's intervention and while he may be allowed to think that, I would have thought that he would not be allowed to say it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C706978", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 135.0, "ContributionID": 706978, "EditedText": "I note that point and will return to it shortly. Mr McLetchie, please continue; this will be your last minute.", "EditedTextHTML": "I note that point and will return to it shortly. Mr McLetchie, please continue; this will be your last minute.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C706981", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 141.0, "ContributionID": 706981, "EditedText": "I must ask the member not to take further interventions.", "EditedTextHTML": "I must ask the member not to take further interventions.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1985E207P501C706987", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hamilton, Mr Duncan", "ID": 1985, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Duncan Hamilton (Highlands and Islands) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 154.0, "ContributionID": 706987, "EditedText": "On the failure of Governments to deliver on agriculture, what advice would Mr Lyon give to Mr Finnie, who trumpeted an announcement of aid for the sheep farmers and did not deliver? On the question of not delivering, perhaps the party that Mr Lyon so proudly represents has nothing to offer us.", "EditedTextHTML": "On the failure of Governments to deliver on agriculture, what advice would Mr Lyon give to Mr Finnie, who trumpeted an announcement of aid for the sheep farmers and did not deliver?

On the question of not delivering, perhaps the party that Mr Lyon so proudly represents has nothing to offer us.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C706990", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 160.0, "ContributionID": 706990, "EditedText": "Mr McLetchie obviously does not understand that £29 million and £50 million is real money—real investment in education and in supporting students—not bureaucracy. He also fails to understand that the creation of those departments is about joined-up government. The people involved, in business and the higher education community, welcome the establishment of the new departments.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr McLetchie obviously does not understand that £29 million and £50 million is real money—real investment in education and in supporting students—not bureaucracy. He also fails to understand that the creation of those departments is about joined-up government. The people involved, in business and the higher education community, welcome the establishment of the new departments.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C706991", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 162.0, "ContributionID": 706991, "EditedText": "Will Mr Lyon help me to understand the economics? How much does it cost to go from seven to 27 ministers? How does it help to have 50 advisers instead of three and what is the cost? Such costs are part of the new expenditure that Mr Lyon mentioned.", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr Lyon help me to understand the economics? How much does it cost to go from seven to 27 ministers? How does it help to have 50 advisers instead of three and what is the cost? Such costs are part of the new expenditure that Mr Lyon mentioned.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C706992", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 164.0, "ContributionID": 706992, "EditedText": "The Conservatives' record in Scotland proves that their seven ministers failed completely to deliver.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Conservatives' record in Scotland proves that their seven ministers failed completely to deliver.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2090E83P266C707006", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAllion, Mr John", "ID": 2090, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dundee East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John McAllion", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McAllion: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 193.0, "ContributionID": 707006, "EditedText": "We may have had one debate, but if Mr Swinney believes that the purpose of the Scottish Parliament is to have one debate every four years about the Executive programme for government, he has a very different idea of the role of the Scottish Parliament from me. We should have repeated debates about the core programme, how it is progressing and how it has been implemented by the Executive. It is legitimate to attack the Executive on that basis, but not to ridicule it for having a debate about its programme. That is nonsense, and it should not be tolerated by anyone in this Parliament. We are told, for example, that the programme is all spin rather than substance. Are Opposition members saying that putting Scottish land reform at the heart of the programme for government is all spin and no substance? The United Kingdom, to which Scotland has belonged for nearly 300 years, has never had a nationalist revolution of the sort that happened in other parts of Europe in the late 18th and the 19th centuries. In those revolutions, the old feudal systems were swept away and replaced by modern democracies. Many would say more is the pity—although sometimes, when Mr Ewing stands up, I think that it is as well that we did not have a nationalist revolution, as there would be even more people like him around if we had.", "EditedTextHTML": "We may have had one debate, but if Mr Swinney believes that the purpose of the

Scottish Parliament is to have one debate every four years about the Executive programme for government, he has a very different idea of the role of the Scottish Parliament from me. We should have repeated debates about the core programme, how it is progressing and how it has been implemented by the Executive. It is legitimate to attack the Executive on that basis, but not to ridicule it for having a debate about its programme. That is nonsense, and it should not be tolerated by anyone in this Parliament.

We are told, for example, that the programme is all spin rather than substance. Are Opposition members saying that putting Scottish land reform at the heart of the programme for government is all spin and no substance? The United Kingdom, to which Scotland has belonged for nearly 300 years, has never had a nationalist revolution of the sort that happened in other parts of Europe in the late 18th and the 19th centuries. In those revolutions, the old feudal systems were swept away and replaced by modern democracies. Many would say more is the pity—although sometimes, when Mr Ewing stands up, I think that it is as well that we did not have a nationalist revolution, as there would be even more people like him around if we had.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2090E83P266C707011", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAllion, Mr John", "ID": 2090, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dundee East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John McAllion", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McAllion: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 204.0, "ContributionID": 707011, "EditedText": "I am grateful to Mr MacAskill for giving way. I would like clarification—are Mr MacAskill and the SNP asking for a tax cut and a reduction in the public spending that is paid for by current taxes?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful to Mr MacAskill for giving way. I would like clarification—are Mr MacAskill and the SNP asking for a tax cut and a reduction in the public spending that is paid for by current taxes?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C707023", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 230.0, "ContributionID": 707023, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C707026", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 237.0, "ContributionID": 707026, "EditedText": "I am curious about what steps Mr Johnston took to oppose the introduction of the fuel escalator of 5 per cent under the Conservative Government.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am curious about what steps Mr Johnston took to oppose the introduction of the fuel escalator of 5 per cent under the Conservative Government.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1873E89P171C707028", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jackson, Dr Sylvia", "ID": 1873, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Stirling" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sylvia Jackson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Sylvia Jackson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 241.0, "ContributionID": 707028, "EditedText": "Mr Johnston was talking about the importance of freedom. Will he comment on the proliferation of mobile telephone masts which, if less than 15 m high, can be placed without planning permission?", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Johnston was talking about the importance of freedom. Will he comment on the proliferation of mobile telephone masts which, if less than 15 m high, can be placed without planning permission?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2152E53P75C707029", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnston, Nick", "ID": 2152, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nick Johnston", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Johnston: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 243.0, "ContributionID": 707029, "EditedText": "I have lodged a question about that subject, and I would rather comment after the minister has replied. I have my own views on telephone masts, as one has appeared right outside my kitchen window. However, I shall not let that influence my thoughts. On 16 June, the First Minister also said that he wanted further extension of small and medium- sized businesses. I refer him to the Scottish Engineering document that I received this morning. It says that, over the next few years, 11,540 jobs will be lost as a result of the energy tax. He would have a far better chance of achieving his aim if business was not hobbled by fuel costs, planners and petty regulation. In the finance bill that is before the Audit Committee, we must ensure that rigorous standards are maintained and tightened. However, I am aware that company law is a reserved matter.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have lodged a question about that subject, and I would rather comment after the minister has replied. I have my own views on telephone masts, as one has appeared right outside my kitchen window. However, I shall not let that influence my thoughts.

On 16 June, the First Minister also said that he wanted further extension of small and medium- sized businesses. I refer him to the Scottish Engineering document that I received this morning. It says that, over the next few years, 11,540 jobs will be lost as a result of the energy tax. He would have a far better chance of achieving his aim if business was not hobbled by fuel costs, planners and petty regulation.

In the finance bill that is before the Audit Committee, we must ensure that rigorous standards are maintained and tightened. However, I am aware that company law is a reserved matter.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1791E121P209C707037", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hughes, Janis", "ID": 1791, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Rutherglen" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Janis Hughes", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Janis Hughes (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 261.0, "ContributionID": 707037, "EditedText": "I welcome the programme for government outlined this morning by the First Minister. It is an excellent opportunity for the government to reinforce the policies that will show the people of Scotland just how the Parliament can make their lives better. I will focus on health and, in particular, on the environmental issues that have such a huge impact on health. As a member of the Transport and the Environment Committee I was pleased to hear the Minister for Transport and the Environment say to the committee yesterday that she sees cross-cutting between her remit and that of most other ministers, including the Minister for Health and Community Care, as a vital part of her brief. We have a real opportunity to make things better. By improving our environment we can improve the health of Scotland; we can reduce pollution and facilitate access to health and other services. We can improve the quality of life in rural communities by improving transport options. We can reduce the incidence of asthma and other respiratory conditions by cleaning up the environment and implementing the national air quality strategy. I have worked as a nurse in a respiratory unit and have seen how already debilitating illnesses can be exacerbated by poor air quality. Some of the issues also have a feel-good aspect. When I was young we used to go doon the coast in the summer. It was always a big treat for us townies to go to the beach and paddle in the sea. Parents today are a wee bit more reluctant for their kids to do that because of the dubious condition of some of the bathing waters. I welcome the huge investment of £115 million in making sure that once again our beaches and waters will be safe and clean for us to take our children to. There is so much we can do to improve our environment and, in doing so, improve the nation's health and well-being. That is why I welcome the government's proposals. Mr Salmond is not here—he called the programme a tabloid. Perhaps he is a wee bit worried that it goes the same way as another tabloid that his party was recently associated with. I think in this case his worries are unfounded and I fully support this programme for government.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the programme for government outlined this morning by the First Minister. It is an excellent opportunity for the government to reinforce the policies that will show the people of Scotland just how the Parliament can make their lives better.

I will focus on health and, in particular, on the environmental issues that have such a huge impact on health. As a member of the Transport and the Environment Committee I was pleased to hear the Minister for Transport and the Environment say to the committee yesterday that she sees cross-cutting between her remit and that of most other ministers, including the Minister for Health and Community Care, as a vital part of her brief.

We have a real opportunity to make things better. By improving our environment we can improve the health of Scotland; we can reduce pollution and facilitate access to health and other services. We can improve the quality of life in rural communities by improving transport options. We can reduce the incidence of asthma and other respiratory conditions by cleaning up the environment and implementing the national air quality strategy. I have worked as a nurse in a respiratory unit and have seen how already debilitating illnesses can be exacerbated by poor air quality.

Some of the issues also have a feel-good aspect. When I was young we used to go doon the coast in the summer. It was always a big treat for us townies to go to the beach and paddle in the sea. Parents today are a wee bit more reluctant for their kids to do that because of the dubious condition of some of the bathing waters. I welcome the huge investment of £115 million in making sure that once again our beaches and waters will be safe and clean for us to take our children to.

There is so much we can do to improve our environment and, in doing so, improve the nation's health and well-being. That is why I welcome the government's proposals. Mr Salmond is not here—he called the programme a tabloid. Perhaps he is a wee bit worried that it goes the same way as another tabloid that his party was recently associated with. I think in this case his worries are unfounded and I fully support this programme for government.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1820E139P227C707039", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Curran, Margaret", "ID": 1820, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Baillieston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Curran", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Margaret Curran (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 266.0, "ContributionID": 707039, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1854E38P164C707041", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Godman, Trish", "ID": 1854, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Renfrewshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Trish Godman", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Trish Godman (West Renfrewshire) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 270.0, "ContributionID": 707041, "EditedText": "Will Dorothy-Grace Elder give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "

Will Dorothy-Grace Elder give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1762E216P508C707042", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Elder, Dorothy-Grace", "ID": 1762, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 272.0, "ContributionID": 707042, "EditedText": "I will give way later.Social work chiefs simply told those parents that the centre was closing and that their young people were being sent to three other centres. The parents pleaded, \"Don't do this. We want them to remain here\", because those utterly helpless and speechless people had been together for almost 20 years. However, the social work department had decided to close that excellent centre.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will give way later.

Social work chiefs simply told those parents that the centre was closing and that their young people were being sent to three other centres. The parents pleaded, \"Don't do this. We want them to remain here\", because those utterly helpless and speechless people had been together for almost 20 years. However, the social work department had decided to close that excellent centre.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1854E38P164C707043", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Godman, Trish", "ID": 1854, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Renfrewshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Trish Godman", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Trish Godman: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 274.0, "ContributionID": 707043, "EditedText": "Will Dorothy-Grace Elder give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Dorothy-Grace Elder give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1854E38P164C707045", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Godman, Trish", "ID": 1854, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Renfrewshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Trish Godman", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Trish Godman: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 278.0, "ContributionID": 707045, "EditedText": "I know why not.", "EditedTextHTML": "I know why not.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C707048", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 285.0, "ContributionID": 707048, "EditedText": "What does Hugh Henry intend to do to improve the quality of life of the people of Angus and the Mearns—a delegation of whom visited Parliament yesterday—and what will he do with regard to their attempt to keep open Stracathro hospital?", "EditedTextHTML": "What does Hugh Henry intend to do to improve the quality of life of the people of Angus and the Mearns—a delegation of whom visited Parliament yesterday—and what will he do with regard to their attempt to keep open Stracathro hospital?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1768E72P274C707054", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Murray, Elaine", "ID": 1768, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumfries" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Murray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Murray: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 298.0, "ContributionID": 707054, "EditedText": "It is relevant that the people of Scotland see the programme that their Government intends to put into practice, and the time scales and performance indicators that it sets for itself. I see that Mr MacAskill is here. I know that he and his colleagues like to comment on who is not here, so I will mention the fact that he is here. He said that there is nothing of substance in the document. Dorothy-Grace said that it is a triumph of spin. I will refute that by referring to the section entitled, \"Working together for a successful and prosperous Scotland\". It states on page 10: \"Our priorities are:To create a culture of enterprise\".Is that nothing of substance? I know that Mr Johnston has said that the Labour party does not know how to do that. I have to hold up my hand and say that I was a scientist, an academic, and I have not created jobs. Perhaps a number of us have not been business people, but we know how to ask people who can give us that advice. That was the point of the partnership, to find out from those who know how we can improve the culture of enterprise in Scotland. The second priority is also on page 10:\"To provide training for skills that match jobs for the future\". I want my children to get the skills that match jobs of the future. I want that for my constituents and their children. That is hardly nothing of substance. The third priority is\"To widen access to further and higher education\".I will let members into a secret. Opposition members talk about how we all had the benefit of a free education, which we are now denying to everyone else. I went to university in 1972. I know that that reveals how old I am—some members might think that I am one of the cast ewes of the Scottish Parliament. In 1972, the vast majority of students at Edinburgh University were middle- class kids like me, products of the middle-class selective education system. There has been a widening of the education system since then. The Labour Government intends to widen it further. I want my constituents in north-west Dumfries to have the same access to higher and further education as I had all those years ago.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is relevant that the people of Scotland see the programme that their Government intends to put into practice, and the time scales and performance indicators that it sets for itself.

I see that Mr MacAskill is here. I know that he and his colleagues like to comment on who is not here, so I will mention the fact that he is here. He said that there is nothing of substance in the document. Dorothy-Grace said that it is a triumph of spin. I will refute that by referring to the section entitled, \"Working together for a successful and prosperous Scotland\". It states on page 10:

\"Our priorities are:

To create a culture of enterprise\".

Is that nothing of substance? I know that Mr Johnston has said that the Labour party does not

know how to do that. I have to hold up my hand and say that I was a scientist, an academic, and I have not created jobs. Perhaps a number of us have not been business people, but we know how to ask people who can give us that advice. That was the point of the partnership, to find out from those who know how we can improve the culture of enterprise in Scotland.

The second priority is also on page 10:

\"To provide training for skills that match jobs for the future\".

I want my children to get the skills that match jobs of the future. I want that for my constituents and their children. That is hardly nothing of substance.

The third priority is

\"To widen access to further and higher education\".

I will let members into a secret. Opposition members talk about how we all had the benefit of a free education, which we are now denying to everyone else. I went to university in 1972. I know that that reveals how old I am—some members might think that I am one of the cast ewes of the Scottish Parliament. In 1972, the vast majority of students at Edinburgh University were middle- class kids like me, products of the middle-class selective education system. There has been a widening of the education system since then. The Labour Government intends to widen it further. I want my constituents in north-west Dumfries to have the same access to higher and further education as I had all those years ago.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C707055", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 300.0, "ContributionID": 707055, "EditedText": "Is Dr Murray insinuating that middle-class people do not have the right to free education?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is Dr Murray insinuating that middle-class people do not have the right to free education?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C707066", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 326.0, "ContributionID": 707066, "EditedText": "More than 130,000 people are unemployed in Scotland. Until they get real jobs, we will have a high level of unemployment. We should compare the unemployment level in this country with that in other small European countries. In Luxembourg, the level of unemployment is 2 per cent; in Austria, it is 3 per cent; and in Norway, it is between 2 per cent and 3 per cent. It is three times those rates in this country. Consider the new deal. In Ayrshire, for example, 5,000 people are on the unemployment register and 211 are on the various options that are available under the new deal. Finding funding for a change is not a substantial problem: as Fiona Hyslop said, Gordon Brown is building up a huge cash mountain of between £10 billion and £20 billion. He should spend that money on creating jobs and eliminating poverty instead of saving it up for tax breaks for the rich. That is what socialism used to mean.", "EditedTextHTML": "More than 130,000 people are unemployed in Scotland. Until they get real jobs, we will have a high level of unemployment.

We should compare the unemployment level in this country with that in other small European countries. In Luxembourg, the level of unemployment is 2 per cent; in Austria, it is 3 per cent; and in Norway, it is between 2 per cent and 3 per cent. It is three times those rates in this country.

Consider the new deal. In Ayrshire, for example, 5,000 people are on the unemployment register and 211 are on the various options that are available under the new deal. Finding funding for a change is not a substantial problem: as Fiona Hyslop said, Gordon Brown is building up a huge cash mountain of between £10 billion and £20 billion. He should spend that money on creating jobs and eliminating poverty instead of saving it up for tax breaks for the rich. That is what socialism used to mean.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C707062", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 318.0, "ContributionID": 707062, "EditedText": "I will take Duncan's intervention later.What hope have those young people when there are no jobs for them to take up? The Government says that its answer is the new deal, but according to the Office for National Statistics, despite the fact that £4 billion is being spent on the welfare-to-work programme, the way in which that money is being spent means that it is having no significant effect—the office's words, not mine—on the level of unemployment.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will take Duncan's intervention later.

What hope have those young people when there are no jobs for them to take up?

The Government says that its answer is the new deal, but according to the Office for National Statistics, despite the fact that £4 billion is being spent on the welfare-to-work programme, the way in which that money is being spent means that it is having no significant effect—the office's words, not mine—on the level of unemployment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C707067", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 328.0, "ContributionID": 707067, "EditedText": "It is time to move on to the next item of business. As was said earlier, the debate on S1M-127 will resume after open question time this afternoon.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is time to move on to the next item of business. As was said earlier, the debate on S1M-127 will resume after open question time this afternoon.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2105E44P74C707058", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harding, Mr Keith", "ID": 2105, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Harding", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Keith Harding (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 308.0, "ContributionID": 707058, "EditedText": "As has been said, this is another expensive relaunch of a disappointing legislative programme. It puts land reform at the top of the agenda on three occasions and does not address issues that matter to the people of Scotland: the desperate need for good, affordable housing; jobs; the decline in the agricultural industry; and the fall in tourism. I will address matters that are covered by my portfolio—local government and housing. There is not a lot to be said because there is not a lot in the proposals. I note that, as has been mentioned, the rough sleepers initiative has been extended for one year. Even at this early stage, one former target has been revised. How many more of those targets will not be met? Apart from a code of conduct for local government, there are no initiatives to address the failures of predominantly Labour-controlled councils. As the controller of audit revealed this morning, the £10 million losses in direct labour organisations and direct service organisations in 1997-98 were compounded in this financial year by losses of another £4 million. All that is being picked up by the council tax payers. It is time that we began to consider the issues. There is more than £800 million outstanding in unpaid community charge and council tax, and non-payment in Glasgow alone amounts to some £24 million. When will we act to recover the £40 million in rent arrears? The disgrace of empty council houses results in the loss of rent of almost £30 million. The recovery of those moneys would go a long way towards addressing some of the problems that the Minister for Finance, Jack McConnell, has to tackle, and towards dealing with some of the housing issues, such as the increased target for improving houses that suffer from dampness and condensation. Why are we not setting targets for reducing homelessness? Such targets should be set and monitored, and best practice introduced throughout the country. Let us begin to deal with homelessness, instead of just talking about it. We welcome the McIntosh report, as we realise that it will address many issues in local government. We look forward to the forthcoming debate on the implementation of proposals agreed. However, those alone will not address one overriding issue: the need to review the financing of local government. Already we hear through the press that £80 million in savings has to be identified to meet education commitments. That, along with the rising costs of ministers, parliamentary advisers and spin-doctors— goodness knows what this publication cost—will stretch the imagination of even the Minister for Finance, well known for his innovative approach to finance in Stirling, where he and his Labour controllers were surcharged for setting an illegal rate. Happy days, when Jack was a socialist. Laughter. Now we are in the real world, and the destiny, welfare, aspirations and future of Scotland are in his hands. I note that the First Minister, in his foreword to \"Making it work together\", states: \"We will be a listening and learning Government— hearing what our people are saying and acting on it.\" I welcome that statement, but I wonder why we are having an expensive inquiry into tuition fees, when the people have already said that they wish them to be abolished. Was the Executive not listening then?I realise that these are early days and that this programme was cobbled together because of the coalition. However, I look forward to the real issues being addressed in the coming months, particularly through the committee structures. I trust that by the end of this Parliament we will be able to say that we have really made a difference and that the quality of life for the people of Scotland has improved.", "EditedTextHTML": "As has been said, this is another expensive relaunch of a disappointing legislative programme. It puts land reform at the top of the agenda on three occasions and does not address issues that matter to the people of Scotland: the desperate need for good, affordable housing; jobs; the decline in the agricultural industry; and the fall in tourism.

I will address matters that are covered by my portfolio—local government and housing. There is not a lot to be said because there is not a lot in the proposals. I note that, as has been mentioned, the rough sleepers initiative has been extended for one year. Even at this early stage, one former target has been revised. How many more of those targets will not be met? Apart from a code of conduct for local government, there are no initiatives to address the failures of predominantly Labour-controlled councils. As the controller of audit revealed this morning, the £10 million losses in direct labour organisations and direct service organisations in 1997-98 were compounded in this financial year by losses of another £4 million.

All that is being picked up by the council tax payers. It is time that we began to consider the issues. There is more than £800 million outstanding in unpaid community charge and council tax, and non-payment in Glasgow alone amounts to some £24 million. When will we act to recover the £40 million in rent arrears? The disgrace of empty council houses results in the loss of rent of almost £30 million. The recovery of those moneys would go a long way towards addressing some of the problems that the Minister for Finance, Jack McConnell, has to tackle, and towards dealing with some of the housing issues, such as the increased target for improving houses that suffer from dampness and condensation.

Why are we not setting targets for reducing homelessness? Such targets should be set and monitored, and best practice introduced throughout the country. Let us begin to deal with homelessness, instead of just talking about it.

We welcome the McIntosh report, as we realise that it will address many issues in local government. We look forward to the forthcoming debate on the implementation of proposals agreed. However, those alone will not address one overriding issue: the need to review the financing of local government. Already we hear through the press that £80 million in savings has to be identified to meet education commitments. That, along with the rising costs of ministers, parliamentary advisers and spin-doctors— goodness knows what this publication cost—will stretch the imagination of even the Minister for Finance, well known for his innovative approach to finance in Stirling, where he and his Labour controllers were surcharged for setting an illegal rate. Happy days, when Jack was a socialist. [Laughter.] Now we are in the real world, and the destiny, welfare, aspirations and future of Scotland are in his hands.

I note that the First Minister, in his foreword to \"Making it work together\", states:

\"We will be a listening and learning Government— hearing what our people are saying and acting on it.\"

I welcome that statement, but I wonder why we are having an expensive inquiry into tuition fees, when the people have already said that they wish them to be abolished. Was the Executive not

listening then?

I realise that these are early days and that this programme was cobbled together because of the coalition. However, I look forward to the real issues being addressed in the coming months, particularly through the committee structures. I trust that by the end of this Parliament we will be able to say that we have really made a difference and that the quality of life for the people of Scotland has improved.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C707060", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 314.0, "ContributionID": 707060, "EditedText": "I congratulate the Executive on being very good on motherhood and apple pie, but it is very poor on substance. Let us analyse what this document says and what it will do in relation to the situation in which we in Scotland find ourselves. It says that the Executive intends to tackle poverty and ensure the best environment for children to grow up in, and that it will do that primarily through the new social inclusion partnerships. Let us consider the effect of the Executive's policy in the light of what its partners in London are doing. When we examine planned expenditure on the social inclusion partnerships over the next three years, two points stand out. First, the expenditure that is planned by the Executive in this area will go down—not up—in the third year. How can we tackle poverty when we are reducing expenditure in poor areas? Secondly, when we compare the expenditure that is planned—between £30 million and £40 million a year—and compare that with the scale of the problem, it is peanuts. It is putting a thumb in the dyke of poverty and deprivation in Scotland. We need also to consider Alasdair Darling's targets for poverty reduction in Scotland. Two weeks ago, he announced that he intends over the next three years to take 1.25 million people out of poverty in the whole of the UK. Even if he achieves his target, he will leave more than a million people in poverty in Scotland at the end of a four-year Labour Government and a three-year Scottish new Labour Executive—1 million people condemned by two Labour Governments to eternal poverty and deprivation. What is proposed in this document does not begin to tackle poverty and deprivation in Scotland. One third of our children are living on or near the poverty line—that is not my figure, it is the Government's figure. More than 30 per cent of our pensioners—who are not mentioned in this document—are living in poverty, and that is getting worse. Our disabled people, who are barely mentioned, are living in poverty. Their benefits are also being cut from London by the Welfare Reform and Pensions Bill. The Executive's promises on welfare to work involve cutting welfare without creating work. How is it that, according to today's Daily Mail, people who live on peripheral housing schemes are going to be told by Gordon Brown that if they do not get a job their benefits will be frozen for at least a year?", "EditedTextHTML": "I congratulate the Executive on being very good on motherhood and apple pie, but it is very poor on substance.

Let us analyse what this document says and what it will do in relation to the situation in which we in Scotland find ourselves. It says that the Executive intends to tackle poverty and ensure the best environment for children to grow up in, and that it will do that primarily through the new social inclusion partnerships. Let us consider the effect of the Executive's policy in the light of what its partners in London are doing.

When we examine planned expenditure on the social inclusion partnerships over the next three years, two points stand out. First, the expenditure that is planned by the Executive in this area will go down—not up—in the third year. How can we tackle poverty when we are reducing expenditure in poor areas? Secondly, when we compare the expenditure that is planned—between £30 million and £40 million a year—and compare that with the scale of the problem, it is peanuts. It is putting a thumb in the dyke of poverty and deprivation in Scotland.

We need also to consider Alasdair Darling's targets for poverty reduction in Scotland. Two weeks ago, he announced that he intends over the next three years to take 1.25 million people out of poverty in the whole of the UK. Even if he achieves his target, he will leave more than a million people in poverty in Scotland at the end of a four-year Labour Government and a three-year Scottish new Labour Executive—1 million people condemned by two Labour Governments to eternal poverty and deprivation.

What is proposed in this document does not begin to tackle poverty and deprivation in Scotland. One third of our children are living on or near the poverty line—that is not my figure, it is the Government's figure. More than 30 per cent of our pensioners—who are not mentioned in this document—are living in poverty, and that is getting

worse. Our disabled people, who are barely mentioned, are living in poverty. Their benefits are also being cut from London by the Welfare Reform and Pensions Bill.

The Executive's promises on welfare to work involve cutting welfare without creating work. How is it that, according to today's Daily Mail, people who live on peripheral housing schemes are going to be told by Gordon Brown that if they do not get a job their benefits will be frozen for at least a year?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "C707070", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26764, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 330.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 330.0, "ID": 26764, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 336.0, "ContributionID": 707070, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C707074", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26765, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 341.0, "ID": 26765, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 342.0, "ContributionID": 707074, "EditedText": "We proceed this afternoon with question time, and I remind members that it is question time and not statement time. I also advise members that three questions—Nos 9, 10 and 14—have been withdrawn, so members should be alert to that.", "EditedTextHTML": "We proceed this afternoon with question time, and I remind members that it is question time and not statement time. I also advise members that three questions—Nos 9, 10 and 14—have been withdrawn, so members should be alert to that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C707077", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26765, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26766, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 344.0, "QuestionHeading": "Citizens Justice", "QuestionHeadingID": 26767, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 345.0, "DisplayOrder": 345.0, "ID": 26767, "ParentID": 26766 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 350.0, "ContributionID": 707077, "EditedText": "The people's juries will be an important way of putting communities at the heart of decision making. I would like to stress that the wider programme involves having a representative of the voluntary sector on every partnership board, and spending £2 million in the next three years on a new national skills development programme for community representatives, so that they can influence decision making in their local areas.", "EditedTextHTML": "The people's juries will be an important way of putting communities at the heart of decision making. I would like to stress that the wider programme involves having a representative of the voluntary sector on every partnership board, and spending £2 million in the next three years on a new national skills development programme for community representatives, so that they can influence decision making in their local areas.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1769E16P282C707081", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26765, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26766, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 344.0, "QuestionHeading": "Child Care", "QuestionHeadingID": 26768, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 352.0, "DisplayOrder": 352.0, "ID": 26768, "ParentID": 26766 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Smith, Elaine", "ID": 1769, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Coatbridge and Chryston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Smith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Elaine Smith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 359.0, "ContributionID": 707081, "EditedText": "Yes, I am about to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes, I am about to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C707090", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26765, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26766, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 344.0, "QuestionHeading": "Tobacco", "QuestionHeadingID": 26770, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 374.0, "DisplayOrder": 374.0, "ID": 26770, "ParentID": 26766 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 379.0, "ContributionID": 707090, "EditedText": "I share the member's concern about the importance of effectively enforcing existing laws that relate to the sale of tobacco to young people and I am keen to introduce measures in that area. However, on this issue, a balance needs to be struck about protecting the interests of young people. I support the Lord Advocate's views that children should not be used to test-purchase tobacco as part of local enforcement strategies. However, Scottish Executive officials are working closely with police and local authorities to investigate ways in which we can enforce the law more effectively in this area. I will be happy to discuss this further with Ms Oldfather.", "EditedTextHTML": "I share the member's concern about the importance of effectively enforcing existing laws that relate to the sale of tobacco to young people and I am keen to introduce measures in that area. However, on this issue, a balance needs to be struck about protecting the interests of young people. I support the Lord Advocate's views that children should not be used to test-purchase tobacco as part of local enforcement strategies.

However, Scottish Executive officials are working closely with police and local authorities to investigate ways in which we can enforce the law more effectively in this area. I will be happy to discuss this further with Ms Oldfather.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2159E115P214C707091", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26765, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26766, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 344.0, "QuestionHeading": "Stobhill Hospital", "QuestionHeadingID": 26771, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 381.0, "DisplayOrder": 381.0, "ID": 26771, "ParentID": 26766 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Martin, Paul", "ID": 2159, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Springburn" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Paul Martin", "SpeakerDisplayName": "5. Paul Martin (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 382.0, "ContributionID": 707091, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether the Minister for Health during her visit to Stobhill hospital will meet the Medical Staff Association to discuss its concerns in connection with revised site proposals to build an ambulatory care and diagnostic unit on the grounds of Stobhill hospital. (S1O-295)", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether the Minister for Health during her visit to Stobhill hospital will meet the Medical Staff Association to discuss its concerns in connection with revised site proposals to build an ambulatory care and diagnostic unit on the grounds of Stobhill hospital. (S1O-295)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C707094", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26765, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26766, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 344.0, "QuestionHeading": "Stobhill Hospital", "QuestionHeadingID": 26771, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 381.0, "DisplayOrder": 381.0, "ID": 26771, "ParentID": 26766 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 388.0, "ContributionID": 707094, "EditedText": "Order. As I said last week, even disappointment must be in the form of a question.", "EditedTextHTML": "Order. As I said last week, even disappointment must be in the form of a question.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2159E115P214C707095", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26765, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26766, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 344.0, "QuestionHeading": "Stobhill Hospital", "QuestionHeadingID": 26771, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 381.0, "DisplayOrder": 381.0, "ID": 26771, "ParentID": 26766 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Martin, Paul", "ID": 2159, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Springburn" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Paul Martin", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Paul Martin: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 390.0, "ContributionID": 707095, "EditedText": "Does the minister share my concerns that the Medical Staff Association was not consulted about the proposals to reduce the ACAD unit from 10 acres on a greenfield site to a two-acre site on the hospital's car park?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the minister share my concerns that the Medical Staff Association was not consulted about the proposals to reduce the ACAD unit from 10 acres on a greenfield site to a two-acre site on the hospital's car park?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C707096", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26765, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26766, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 344.0, "QuestionHeading": "Stobhill Hospital", "QuestionHeadingID": 26771, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 381.0, "DisplayOrder": 381.0, "ID": 26771, "ParentID": 26766 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 392.0, "ContributionID": 707096, "EditedText": "I take very seriously a visit to a hospital that involves presenting an award that recognises the achievement of NHS staff. That is very far from a baked-a-cake visit. I have received a number of other requests for meetings on that day that I am also unable to accommodate. As for the issue that Mr Martin raises, I am aware of the range of views that are held in the hospital and locally. Those views are a matter for local consultation and discussion. I have met the member to discuss the issues at some length and have encouraged him, the local board and the local trust to have further discussions at a local level. When proposals are finalised, they will go out for local consultation.", "EditedTextHTML": "I take very seriously a visit to a hospital that involves presenting an award that recognises the achievement of NHS staff. That is very far from a baked-a-cake visit. I have received a number of other requests for meetings on that day that I am also unable to accommodate.

As for the issue that Mr Martin raises, I am aware of the range of views that are held in the hospital and locally. Those views are a matter for local consultation and discussion. I have met the member to discuss the issues at some length and have encouraged him, the local board and the local trust to have further discussions at a local level. When proposals are finalised, they will go out for local consultation.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1931E120P189C707097", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26765, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26766, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 344.0, "QuestionHeading": "Landraise", "QuestionHeadingID": 26772, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 394.0, "DisplayOrder": 394.0, "ID": 26772, "ParentID": 26766 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Muldoon, Bristow", "ID": 1931, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Livingston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bristow Muldoon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "6. Bristow Muldoon (Livingston) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 395.0, "ContributionID": 707097, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what the current policy is on the use of landraise for the disposal of domestic and non-domestic waste. (S1O-286) The Minister for Transport and the Environment (Sarah Boyack): Landraising is an acceptable form of controlled waste disposal, provided such development receives the planning permission and waste management licence required from the appropriate authorities.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what the current policy is on the use of landraise for the disposal of domestic and non-domestic waste. (S1O-286) The Minister for Transport and the Environment (Sarah Boyack): Landraising is an acceptable form of controlled waste disposal, provided such development receives the planning permission and waste management licence required from the appropriate authorities.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1805E13P109C707101", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26765, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26766, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 344.0, "QuestionHeading": "Dental Health", "QuestionHeadingID": 26773, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 401.0, "DisplayOrder": 401.0, "ID": 26773, "ParentID": 26766 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Whitefield, Karen", "ID": 1805, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Airdrie and Shotts" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Karen Whitefield", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Karen Whitefield: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 404.0, "ContributionID": 707101, "EditedText": "Does the minister agree that children from deprived communities have at least three times more dental decay than children from more affluent communities? Will she commit the Scottish Executive health department to taking action to improve local access to dental services, especially in some of Scotland's poorest communities, as well as taking steps to improve public health education specifically related to dental decay?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the minister agree that children from deprived communities have at least three times more dental decay than children from more affluent communities? Will she commit the Scottish Executive health department to taking action to improve local access to dental services, especially in some of Scotland's poorest communities, as well as taking steps to improve public health education specifically related to dental decay?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2112E192P495C707108", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26765, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26766, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 344.0, "QuestionHeading": "Railways", "QuestionHeadingID": 26775, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 419.0, "DisplayOrder": 419.0, "ID": 26775, "ParentID": 26766 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacAskill, Kenny", "ID": 2112, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenny MacAskill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "11. Mr Kenny MacAskill (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 420.0, "ContributionID": 707108, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has to develop the electrification of Scotland's railways. (S1O-252) The Minister for Transport and the Environment (Sarah Boyack): Investment in the development of rail infrastructure is principally a commercial matter for Railtrack. If local authorities wish to work with the rail industry on enhancing the rail network, their proposals may be eligible for support from the public transport fund.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has to develop the electrification of Scotland's railways. (S1O-252) The Minister for Transport and the Environment (Sarah Boyack): Investment in the development of rail infrastructure is principally a commercial matter for Railtrack. If local authorities wish to work with the rail industry on enhancing the rail network, their proposals may be eligible for support from the public transport fund.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C707114", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26765, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26766, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 344.0, "QuestionHeading": "Secretary of State for Scotland", "QuestionHeadingID": 26776, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 430.0, "DisplayOrder": 430.0, "ID": 26776, "ParentID": 26766 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 433.0, "ContributionID": 707114, "EditedText": "Before the Secretary of State for Scotland's job becomes totally redundant, will the First Minister ask Dr Reid to tell Scottish Labour MPs to stop whining about Scottish members of this Parliament expressing concern about important matters affecting their constituents? For example, this Parliament, as well as Westminster, has an important role to play regarding the high levels of Scottish unemployment. Is it not significant that some of the Scottish Labour MPs who have been bleating the loudest—Interruption.", "EditedTextHTML": "Before the Secretary of State for Scotland's job becomes totally redundant, will the First Minister ask Dr Reid to tell Scottish Labour MPs to stop whining about Scottish members of this Parliament expressing concern about important matters affecting their constituents?

For example, this Parliament, as well as Westminster, has an important role to play regarding the high levels of Scottish unemployment. Is it not significant that some of the Scottish Labour MPs who have been bleating the loudest—[Interruption.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C707117", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26765, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26766, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 344.0, "QuestionHeading": "Health Care", "QuestionHeadingID": 26777, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 439.0, "DisplayOrder": 439.0, "ID": 26777, "ParentID": 26766 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "13. Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 440.0, "ContributionID": 707117, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what action it is taking to enable acute hospital and primary care trusts to meet the aspirations for joint investment funds set out in the \"Designed to Care\" white paper. (S1O-255) The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): The joint investment fund is an innovative mechanism for redesigning services to meet patient needs and to ensure that resources move with any service change. Health boards and NHS trusts were advised earlier this year that their current health improvement programmes should identify the areas for service change and resource transfer that they would explore jointly in 1999-2000. A support group of senior managers and professionals was established to assess progress and to share good practice. An interim report was produced in August and a final report, which will set out models for achieving change, is due shortly.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what action it is taking to enable acute hospital and primary care trusts to meet the aspirations for joint investment funds set out in the \"Designed to Care\" white paper. (S1O-255) The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): The joint investment fund is an innovative mechanism for redesigning services to meet patient needs and to ensure that resources move with any service change.

Health boards and NHS trusts were advised earlier this year that their current health improvement programmes should identify the areas for service change and resource transfer that they would explore jointly in 1999-2000. A support group of senior managers and professionals was established to assess progress

and to share good practice. An interim report was produced in August and a final report, which will set out models for achieving change, is due shortly.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C707119", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26765, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26766, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 344.0, "QuestionHeading": "Health Care", "QuestionHeadingID": 26777, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 439.0, "DisplayOrder": 439.0, "ID": 26777, "ParentID": 26766 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 444.0, "ContributionID": 707119, "EditedText": "Order.", "EditedTextHTML": "Order.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1865E219P509C707122", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26765, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26766, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 344.0, "QuestionHeading": "Yorkhill Hospital", "QuestionHeadingID": 26778, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 450.0, "DisplayOrder": 450.0, "ID": 26778, "ParentID": 26766 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "White, Sandra", "ID": 1865, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sandra White", "SpeakerDisplayName": "15. Ms Sandra White (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 451.0, "ContributionID": 707122, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what steps it is taking to ensure the retention of the paediatric cardiac surgery service at Yorkhill hospital. (S1O-296) The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): As Ms White will be aware, paediatric cardiac surgery is performed currently in two centres: Yorkhill hospital in Glasgow and the sick children's hospital in Edinburgh. All the clinicians concerned agree that it is in the best interests of patients to concentrate the service in one centre. In reaching a decision on where the service is to be located, my primary concern will be to ensure that the highest quality of service is provided in future for those children who need cardiac surgery.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what steps it is taking to ensure the retention of the paediatric cardiac surgery service at Yorkhill hospital. (S1O-296) The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): As Ms White will be aware, paediatric cardiac surgery is performed currently in two centres: Yorkhill hospital in Glasgow and the sick children's hospital in Edinburgh.

All the clinicians concerned agree that it is in the best interests of patients to concentrate the service in one centre. In reaching a decision on where the service is to be located, my primary concern will be to ensure that the highest quality of service is provided in future for those children who need cardiac surgery.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C707126", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26765, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26766, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 344.0, "QuestionHeading": "Yorkhill Hospital", "QuestionHeadingID": 26778, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 450.0, "DisplayOrder": 450.0, "ID": 26778, "ParentID": 26766 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 459.0, "ContributionID": 707126, "EditedText": "Order. I called you, Ms White, to ask another question.", "EditedTextHTML": "Order. I called you, Ms White, to ask another question.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C707128", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26765, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26766, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 344.0, "QuestionHeading": "Yorkhill Hospital", "QuestionHeadingID": 26778, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 450.0, "DisplayOrder": 450.0, "ID": 26778, "ParentID": 26766 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 463.0, "ContributionID": 707128, "EditedText": "This is not argument time, it is question time. We will move on.", "EditedTextHTML": "This is not argument time, it is question time. We will move on.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1775E171P452C707134", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26765, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26766, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 344.0, "QuestionHeading": "National Stadium", "QuestionHeadingID": 26780, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 476.0, "DisplayOrder": 476.0, "ID": 26780, "ParentID": 26766 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeod, Fiona", "ID": 1775, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona McLeod", "SpeakerDisplayName": "17. Fiona McLeod (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 477.0, "ContributionID": 707134, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will make a detailed statement on the current financial situation at Hampden stadium and the Scottish football museum and on the implications for the future operation of the national stadium and museum. (S1O-294)", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will make a detailed statement on the current financial situation at Hampden stadium and the Scottish football museum and on the implications for the future operation of the national stadium and museum. (S1O-294)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1775E171P452C707136", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26765, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26766, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 344.0, "QuestionHeading": "National Stadium", "QuestionHeadingID": 26780, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 476.0, "DisplayOrder": 476.0, "ID": 26780, "ParentID": 26766 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeod, Fiona", "ID": 1775, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona McLeod", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona McLeod: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 481.0, "ContributionID": 707136, "EditedText": "I have been asking this question since July, and I am glad that the minister is giving members an answer.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have been asking this question since July, and I am glad that the minister is giving members an answer.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C707137", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26765, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26766, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 344.0, "QuestionHeading": "National Stadium", "QuestionHeadingID": 26780, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 476.0, "DisplayOrder": 476.0, "ID": 26780, "ParentID": 26766 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 483.0, "ContributionID": 707137, "EditedText": "Let us have another question, then.", "EditedTextHTML": "Let us have another question, then.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1775E171P452C707138", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26765, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26766, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 344.0, "QuestionHeading": "National Stadium", "QuestionHeadingID": 26780, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 476.0, "DisplayOrder": 476.0, "ID": 26780, "ParentID": 26766 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeod, Fiona", "ID": 1775, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona McLeod", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona McLeod: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 485.0, "ContributionID": 707138, "EditedText": "In light of today's news reports, will the Scottish Executive support a proposal to call in the receivers to put Hampden into administration, and how will that affect Scotland's crucial qualifying match against Lithuania on 9 October?", "EditedTextHTML": "In light of today's news reports, will the Scottish Executive support a proposal to call in the receivers to put Hampden into administration, and how will that affect Scotland's crucial qualifying match against Lithuania on 9 October?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C707139", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26765, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26766, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 344.0, "QuestionHeading": "National Stadium", "QuestionHeadingID": 26780, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 476.0, "DisplayOrder": 476.0, "ID": 26780, "ParentID": 26766 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Galbraith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 487.0, "ContributionID": 707139, "EditedText": "I hope that Fiona realises that I am answering the question because I was asked it, which seems to me to be appropriate.", "EditedTextHTML": "I hope that Fiona realises that I am answering the question because I was asked it, which seems to me to be appropriate.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1775E171P452C707140", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26765, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26766, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 344.0, "QuestionHeading": "National Stadium", "QuestionHeadingID": 26780, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 476.0, "DisplayOrder": 476.0, "ID": 26780, "ParentID": 26766 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeod, Fiona", "ID": 1775, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona McLeod", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona McLeod: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 489.0, "ContributionID": 707140, "EditedText": "I asked it in July.", "EditedTextHTML": "I asked it in July.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1926E190P479C707144", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26765, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26766, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 344.0, "QuestionHeading": "Railways", "QuestionHeadingID": 26781, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 493.0, "DisplayOrder": 493.0, "ID": 26781, "ParentID": 26766 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Adam, Brian", "ID": 1926, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Adam", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Brian Adam: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 498.0, "ContributionID": 707144, "EditedText": "I am grateful to the minister for her answer. However, I would be extremely grateful if she answered the supplementary question put by my colleague, Mr Kenny MacAskill, which directly related to improvements in the line at Larkhall and Hamilton. Can she say when that work will be done or, if it will not be done, what the problem is?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful to the minister for her answer. However, I would be extremely grateful if she answered the supplementary question put by my colleague, Mr Kenny MacAskill, which directly related to improvements in the line at Larkhall and Hamilton. Can she say when that work will be done or, if it will not be done, what the problem is?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C707147", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26765, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26766, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 344.0, "QuestionHeading": "Signum Circuits", "QuestionHeadingID": 26782, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 502.0, "DisplayOrder": 502.0, "ID": 26782, "ParentID": 26766 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning (Henry McLeish): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 505.0, "ContributionID": 707147, "EditedText": "I am aware that Scottish Borders Enterprise is discussing help that might be made available to assist Signum Circuits with its plans. This week, the enterprise and lifelong learning department received a preliminary approach about regional selective assistance. That form of aid is not at present available in the Borders, although the proposed assisted areas map would, if agreed by the European Commission, extend regional selective assistance coverage to parts of the area.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am aware that Scottish Borders Enterprise is discussing help that might be made available to assist Signum Circuits with its plans. This week, the enterprise and lifelong learning department received a preliminary approach about regional selective assistance. That form of aid is not at present available in the Borders, although the proposed assisted areas map would, if agreed by the European Commission, extend regional selective assistance coverage to parts of the area.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C707149", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26765, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26766, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 344.0, "QuestionHeading": "Signum Circuits", "QuestionHeadingID": 26782, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 502.0, "DisplayOrder": 502.0, "ID": 26782, "ParentID": 26766 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 509.0, "ContributionID": 707149, "EditedText": "I warmly echo Christine Grahame's sentiments about Signum Circuits, a company that we want to assist and which has a huge future. When I was in the Borders recently, I had a constructive meeting with the company. The key issue is that, because there is a Labour Government at Westminster and a Lib-Lab Government in Scotland, we are now extending regional selective assistance to Selkirk and other parts of the Borders. With the greatest respect to Christine, the article in the Border Telegraph of Tuesday 7 September did not allude to any of those issues. In this chamber, we want to work in partnership, to ensure that a company with a great potential realises it as soon as possible, and we will do everything we can to ensure that that becomes a reality.", "EditedTextHTML": "I warmly echo Christine Grahame's sentiments about Signum Circuits, a company that we want to assist and which has a huge future. When I was in the Borders recently, I had a constructive meeting with the company.

The key issue is that, because there is a Labour Government at Westminster and a Lib-Lab Government in Scotland, we are now extending regional selective assistance to Selkirk and other parts of the Borders. With the greatest respect to Christine, the article in the Border Telegraph of Tuesday 7 September did not allude to any of those issues. In this chamber, we want to work in partnership, to ensure that a company with a great potential realises it as soon as possible, and we will do everything we can to ensure that that becomes a reality.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C707152", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26765, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26766, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 344.0, "QuestionHeading": "Signum Circuits", "QuestionHeadingID": 26782, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 502.0, "DisplayOrder": 502.0, "ID": 26782, "ParentID": 26766 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 515.0, "ContributionID": 707152, "EditedText": "Phil Gallie, just in time. Laughter.", "EditedTextHTML": "Phil Gallie, just in time. [Laughter.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C707153", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26765, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26766, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 344.0, "QuestionHeading": "Signum Circuits", "QuestionHeadingID": 26782, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 502.0, "DisplayOrder": 502.0, "ID": 26782, "ParentID": 26766 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "20. Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 517.0, "ContributionID": 707153, "EditedText": "As an aside, this is the third week running that it has seemed that I was about to lose out. To ask the Scottish Executive what steps it will take to put an end to the situation whereby minor technical discrepancies prevent court proceedings in cases where there is evidence of an individual's wrongdoing. (S1O-272)", "EditedTextHTML": "As an aside, this is the third week running that it has seemed that I was about to lose out. To ask the Scottish Executive what steps it will take to put an end to the situation whereby minor technical discrepancies prevent court proceedings in cases where there is evidence of an individual's wrongdoing. (S1O-272)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C707155", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26765, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26766, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 344.0, "QuestionHeading": "Signum Circuits", "QuestionHeadingID": 26782, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 502.0, "DisplayOrder": 502.0, "ID": 26782, "ParentID": 26766 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 521.0, "ContributionID": 707155, "EditedText": "I thank the minister. Does he recognise that the public cannot understand it when someone who is clearly guilty in the eyes of a court or a jury goes free because of a technical discrepancy, such as the lack of a birth certificate? In another case, there was clear evidence of someone having carried drugs, but he went free because of a mistake on a warrant.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the minister. Does he recognise that the public cannot understand it when someone who is clearly guilty in the eyes of a court or a jury goes free because of a technical discrepancy, such as the lack of a birth certificate? In another case, there was clear evidence of someone having carried drugs, but he went free because of a mistake on a warrant.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4984197+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C707160", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26783, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 525.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26784, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 526.0, "QuestionHeading": "Concordats", "QuestionHeadingID": 26785, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 527.0, "DisplayOrder": 527.0, "ID": 26785, "ParentID": 26784 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 534.0, "ContributionID": 707160, "EditedText": "Surely one of the parties to those concordats is this Parliament. One of Mr Dewar's other colleagues, Mr McAllion, suggested in that same debate in the House of Commons that the concordats could be, as he put it, \"completely revised\" once they were put before this Parliament. Is that the position? Does he agree with his colleague that, one by one, the concordats will be put before this Parliament and will be subject to amendment if members of this Parliament believe that they are worthy of amending?", "EditedTextHTML": "Surely one of the parties to those concordats is this Parliament. One of Mr Dewar's other colleagues, Mr McAllion, suggested in that same debate in the House of Commons that the concordats could be, as he put it, \"completely revised\" once they were put before this Parliament. Is that the position? Does he agree with his colleague that, one by one, the concordats will be put before this Parliament and will be subject to amendment if members of this Parliament believe that they are worthy of amending?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.5140435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C707162", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26783, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 525.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26784, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 526.0, "QuestionHeading": "Concordats", "QuestionHeadingID": 26785, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 527.0, "DisplayOrder": 527.0, "ID": 26785, "ParentID": 26784 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 538.0, "ContributionID": 707162, "EditedText": "Let us test a couple of the leaks that we have had over the past 18 months. In November 1997, a leak of the concordat on inward investment suggested that Locate in Scotland's ability to attract inward investment would be restricted. Is that still the position, or has the concordat been amended? In March 1998, a leak of the concordat and attendant papers on agriculture suggested that the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food would be the lead department in European negotiations, even on matters such as fisheries where the Scottish industry dominates. The question is quite simple. If that is still the position in the MAFF concordat, will this Parliament have the right to seek to amend it to ensure that this Parliament and this Executive are in the lead in European negotiations on the fishing industry?", "EditedTextHTML": "Let us test a couple of the leaks that we have had over the past 18 months. In November 1997, a leak of the concordat on inward investment suggested that Locate in Scotland's ability to attract inward investment would be restricted. Is that still the position, or has the concordat been amended?

In March 1998, a leak of the concordat and attendant papers on agriculture suggested that the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food would be the lead department in European negotiations, even on matters such as fisheries where the Scottish industry dominates. The question is quite simple. If that is still the position in the MAFF concordat, will this Parliament have the right to seek to amend it to ensure that this Parliament and this Executive are in the lead in European negotiations on the fishing industry?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.5140435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C707164", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26783, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 525.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26784, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 526.0, "QuestionHeading": "Prime Minister (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26786, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 542.0, "DisplayOrder": 542.0, "ID": 26786, "ParentID": 26784 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "2. David McLetchie (Lothians) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 543.0, "ContributionID": 707164, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive how many times the First Minister has met with the Prime Minister since 1 July 1999 to discuss matters relating to the governance of Scotland and whether further regular meetings between them have been scheduled. (S1O-263)", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive how many times the First

Minister has met with the Prime Minister since 1 July 1999 to discuss matters relating to the governance of Scotland and whether further regular meetings between them have been scheduled. (S1O-263)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.5140435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C707165", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26783, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 525.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26784, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 526.0, "QuestionHeading": "Prime Minister (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26786, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 542.0, "DisplayOrder": 542.0, "ID": 26786, "ParentID": 26784 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister (Donald Dewar): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 545.0, "ContributionID": 707165, "EditedText": "I met the Prime Minister on 3 September when he visited Scotland. I talk to him on a fairly regular basis and will continue to do so. It is evidently in all our interests that that level of contact and co-operation is built into the system.", "EditedTextHTML": "I met the Prime Minister on 3 September when he visited Scotland. I talk to him on a fairly regular basis and will continue to do so. It is evidently in all our interests that that level of contact and co-operation is built into the system.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.5140435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C707167", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26783, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 525.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26784, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 526.0, "QuestionHeading": "Prime Minister (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26786, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 542.0, "DisplayOrder": 542.0, "ID": 26786, "ParentID": 26784 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 549.0, "ContributionID": 707167, "EditedText": "That decision will be taken in this Parliament. We have not seen what the Cubie committee will recommend. I will go so far as to say that, when we look at how we organise those affairs, what happens to the 20 per cent of the undergraduate population in Scotland that comes from England is a matter of some importance and sensitivity. That is not a reference to any specific conversation with the Prime Minister, but is a general point of importance. It is right that we try, at least, to keep our colleagues in touch with what is happening, so that they can consider the implications. I would certainly expect a similar courtesy if things were the other way round.", "EditedTextHTML": "That decision will be taken in this Parliament. We have not seen what the Cubie committee will recommend. I will go so far as to say that, when we look at how we organise those affairs, what happens to the 20 per cent of the undergraduate population in Scotland that comes from England is a matter of some importance and sensitivity. That is not a reference to any specific conversation with the Prime Minister, but is a general point of importance. It is right that we try, at least, to keep our colleagues in touch with what is happening, so that they can consider the implications. I would certainly expect a similar courtesy if things were the other way round.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.5140435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C707168", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26783, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 525.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26784, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 526.0, "QuestionHeading": "Prime Minister (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26786, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 542.0, "DisplayOrder": 542.0, "ID": 26786, "ParentID": 26784 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 551.0, "ContributionID": 707168, "EditedText": "I am glad that the First Minister confirms that we are free to develop a Scottish solution to the problem. Having been teased this morning about filling in his pools coupon, will he demonstrate that he really is a gambling man? Mr Donald Gorrie has said that he would happily bet a year's pay that tuition fees will go. Is the First Minister prepared to bet a year's pay on Mr Wallace abiding by the principles of collective responsibility should the Executive decide otherwise?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am glad that the First Minister confirms that we are free to develop a Scottish solution to the problem. Having been teased this morning about filling in his pools coupon, will he demonstrate that he really is a gambling man?

Mr Donald Gorrie has said that he would happily bet a year's pay that tuition fees will go. Is the First Minister prepared to bet a year's pay on Mr Wallace abiding by the principles of collective responsibility should the Executive decide otherwise?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.5140435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C707170", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26783, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 525.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26784, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 526.0, "QuestionHeading": "Prime Minister (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26786, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 542.0, "DisplayOrder": 542.0, "ID": 26786, "ParentID": 26784 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 555.0, "ContributionID": 707170, "EditedText": "Go on, get your money out.", "EditedTextHTML": "Go on, get your money out.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.5140435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C707172", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26783, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 525.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26784, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 526.0, "QuestionHeading": "Prime Minister (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26786, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 542.0, "DisplayOrder": 542.0, "ID": 26786, "ParentID": 26784 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 559.0, "ContributionID": 707172, "EditedText": "Only horses.", "EditedTextHTML": "Only horses.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.5140435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C707173", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26783, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 525.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26784, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 526.0, "QuestionHeading": "Prime Minister (Meetings)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26786, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 542.0, "DisplayOrder": 542.0, "ID": 26786, "ParentID": 26784 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 561.0, "ContributionID": 707173, "EditedText": "Only fools and horses. Laughter. As for Donald Gorrie, he is far too stylish and rakish a figure for me to compete with.", "EditedTextHTML": "Only fools and horses. [Laughter.]

As for Donald Gorrie, he is far too stylish and rakish a figure for me to compete with.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.5140435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C707007", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fergus Ewing (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 195.0, "ContributionID": 707007, "EditedText": "I will take Mr McAllion's last remarks as an endorsement. If the Government is so committed to land reform, why has the effective date of the land reform bill becoming law been postponed by two years, until 2003?", "EditedTextHTML": "I will take Mr McAllion's last remarks as an endorsement.

If the Government is so committed to land reform, why has the effective date of the land reform bill becoming law been postponed by two years, until 2003?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:01:03.9549326+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1773E197P503C707057", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hyslop, Fiona", "ID": 1773, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona Hyslop", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona Hyslop (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 305.0, "ContributionID": 707057, "EditedText": "That was interesting. I remind Hugh Henry that his is the party of government. This document is the Executive's programme of government. Unfortunately, only a few members of the Executive are here. At one point I thought that we had just the book-ends, but I am glad that Ms Alexander has now joined us. Coffee tables from Hamilton to Hyndland will groan under the weight of this latest designer fad in the relaunch, this ministerial montage. The black and white shades flatter the ministers and certainly do justice to the finance minister's crisp, white shirt. The document flatters to deceive. It deceives the Scottish public by adding dates to the programme for government from June, to give the impression that we now have an Executive that means business. If it means business, many obvious things should be in that document that it could and should be doing. Promises will not address poverty when the Executive is cutting back on services for families and children. Families and children in Scotland are suffering because of Labour—and Tory—spending cuts in public services. In the first three years of the Labour Government there have been cuts of £176 billion—it is spending even less than the Tories spent. It is not just the coffee tables that are groaning; the coffers of Gordon Brown's Treasury are groaning with cash, and we hear estimates ranging from £10 billion to £22 billion. The Scottish Executive should be Scotland's voice, ensuring that that money is spent now rather than later to tackle poor, damp housing. So much of what the Executive does is driven from London. We acknowledge that. That is why it cannot take housing out of the public sector borrowing requirement, as happens in other European countries. That is why it cannot lift the 75 per cent clawback rule, or can it? Labour is following the Tory economic dogma. That is why it is poor on producing a vision of how the housing debt can be dealt with in Scotland. That is why it is poor on exploring the range of financial opportunities to direct finance into rebuilding Scotland's housing, which would create real jobs and homes. Scotland's housing policy is decided for Scots by London. The promises in the document are not based on what the Executive guarantees it will do in housing; they are based on what it hopes will happen. It hopes that there will be a mass council house sell-off to inject private cash—if the tenants agree and if the figures stand up. Those are hardly reassuring promises that will stand up under the scrutiny of the Parliament. Most of the limited cash that the Executive has identified is going on feasibility studies and consultants' fees, not on bricks and mortar. Not a penny of the £125 million that is going into servicing debt and producing feasibility studies will remove a single damp spore from a child's bedroom. The rough sleepers initiative is discussed on the blood-red pages. The document states that we will tackle rough sleeping, so that nobody will sleep rough after March 2003. Remember that in February this year Calum Macdonald said that rough sleeping would be finished by 2002. That is enough to make us see blood red. We must examine what the Government could be doing. The Executive has been pushed into examining suspended repossession orders. That was in the SNP's manifesto. The Executive is finally thinking about it. The Executive acts only when it is pressured or panicked into taking action. The subject should not be tackled by a member's bill—the Executive should take action. When the Executive does something, such as suggesting on-line surveys, it does it in haste after prodding from the Opposition. On the substance of housing policy, it delays; meanwhile the children of Scotland cough, splutter and wheeze in cold, damp houses.", "EditedTextHTML": "That was interesting.

I remind Hugh Henry that his is the party of government. This document is the Executive's programme of government. Unfortunately, only a few members of the Executive are here. At one point I thought that we had just the book-ends, but I am glad that Ms Alexander has now joined us. Coffee tables from Hamilton to Hyndland will groan under the weight of this latest designer fad in the relaunch, this ministerial montage. The black and white shades flatter the ministers and certainly do justice to the finance minister's crisp, white shirt.

The document flatters to deceive. It deceives the Scottish public by adding dates to the programme for government from June, to give the impression that we now have an Executive that means business. If it means business, many obvious things should be in that document that it could and should be doing.

Promises will not address poverty when the Executive is cutting back on services for families and children. Families and children in Scotland are suffering because of Labour—and Tory—spending cuts in public services. In the first three years of the Labour Government there have been cuts of £176 billion—it is spending even less than the Tories spent. It is not just the coffee tables that are groaning; the coffers of Gordon Brown's Treasury are groaning with cash, and we hear estimates ranging from £10 billion to £22 billion.

The Scottish Executive should be Scotland's voice, ensuring that that money is spent now rather than later to tackle poor, damp housing. So much of what the Executive does is driven from London. We acknowledge that. That is why it cannot take housing out of the public sector borrowing requirement, as happens in other European countries. That is why it cannot lift the 75 per cent clawback rule, or can it? Labour is following the Tory economic dogma. That is why it

is poor on producing a vision of how the housing debt can be dealt with in Scotland. That is why it is poor on exploring the range of financial opportunities to direct finance into rebuilding Scotland's housing, which would create real jobs and homes. Scotland's housing policy is decided for Scots by London.

The promises in the document are not based on what the Executive guarantees it will do in housing; they are based on what it hopes will happen. It hopes that there will be a mass council house sell-off to inject private cash—if the tenants agree and if the figures stand up. Those are hardly reassuring promises that will stand up under the scrutiny of the Parliament. Most of the limited cash that the Executive has identified is going on feasibility studies and consultants' fees, not on bricks and mortar. Not a penny of the £125 million that is going into servicing debt and producing feasibility studies will remove a single damp spore from a child's bedroom.

The rough sleepers initiative is discussed on the blood-red pages. The document states that we will tackle rough sleeping, so that nobody will sleep rough after March 2003. Remember that in February this year Calum Macdonald said that rough sleeping would be finished by 2002. That is enough to make us see blood red.

We must examine what the Government could be doing. The Executive has been pushed into examining suspended repossession orders. That was in the SNP's manifesto. The Executive is finally thinking about it. The Executive acts only when it is pressured or panicked into taking action. The subject should not be tackled by a member's bill—the Executive should take action. When the Executive does something, such as suggesting on-line surveys, it does it in haste after prodding from the Opposition. On the substance of housing policy, it delays; meanwhile the children of Scotland cough, splutter and wheeze in cold, damp houses.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:01:31.7066757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1756E184P464C707146", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26765, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26766, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 344.0, "QuestionHeading": "Signum Circuits", "QuestionHeadingID": 26782, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 502.0, "DisplayOrder": 502.0, "ID": 26782, "ParentID": 26766 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Grahame, Christine", "ID": 1756, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Christine Grahame", "SpeakerDisplayName": "19. Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 503.0, "ContributionID": 707146, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what progress has taken place in relation to the Borders printed circuit board manufacturer Signum Circuits' request for regional selective assistance which would allow it to expand its operations in Selkirk. (S1O-254)", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what progress has taken place in relation to the Borders printed circuit board manufacturer Signum Circuits' request for regional selective assistance which would allow it to expand its operations in Selkirk. (S1O-254)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:01:31.7066757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C707207", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26788, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 590.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 590.0, "ID": 26788, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fergus Ewing (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 638.0, "ContributionID": 707207, "EditedText": "The First Minister, who I hope has only temporarily departed, gave some excellent advice this morning. He said that we should be positive. I must acknowledge that all members want what is best for Scotland, no matter which party we belong to. My question about the Government's programme is whether it is best for Scotland. I am afraid that it is not good enough. As the SNP's spokesman for small business, I am interested in the only specific proposal in the document—that the Executive will \"help to create 100,000 new Scottish businesses by 2009\".Anybody can set a target, but how is it to be delivered? No measures in the document indicate how the Government's target will be achieved. Last week, in the committee on which I serve, I was positive, as Mr Dewar advised us to be. Henry McLeish listened to three specific proposals that I made that would help to deliver the Government's target. The first was de-rating for small businesses, as proposed by the Federation of Small Businesses. The second was a root-andbranch review of planning law. The third was an elimination of red tape. I am sure that there would be a high level of support for those proposals.", "EditedTextHTML": "The First Minister, who I hope has only temporarily departed, gave some excellent advice this morning. He said that we should be positive. I must acknowledge that all members want what is best for Scotland, no

matter which party we belong to. My question about the Government's programme is whether it is best for Scotland. I am afraid that it is not good enough.

As the SNP's spokesman for small business, I am interested in the only specific proposal in the document—that the Executive will

\"help to create 100,000 new Scottish businesses by 2009\".

Anybody can set a target, but how is it to be delivered? No measures in the document indicate how the Government's target will be achieved. Last week, in the committee on which I serve, I was positive, as Mr Dewar advised us to be. Henry McLeish listened to three specific proposals that I made that would help to deliver the Government's target. The first was de-rating for small businesses, as proposed by the Federation of Small Businesses. The second was a root-andbranch review of planning law. The third was an elimination of red tape. I am sure that there would be a high level of support for those proposals.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:01:17.555696+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C707211", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26788, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 590.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 590.0, "ID": 26788, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fergus Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 646.0, "ContributionID": 707211, "EditedText": "As part of the SNP's economics team, I am not inclined to recommend that anybody gamble one year's salary on anything. However, a member of my family who was involved in a certain by-election 32 years ago made a bet with odds of nine to one. I remember getting a rather good toy the day after the result. Who knows, I might break with my inclination and place a bet on my sister's winning.", "EditedTextHTML": "As part of the SNP's economics team, I am not inclined to recommend that anybody gamble one year's salary on anything. However, a member of my family who was involved in a certain by-election 32 years ago made a bet with odds of nine to one. I remember getting a rather good toy the day after the result. Who knows, I might break with my inclination and place a bet on my sister's winning.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:01:17.555696+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C707110", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26765, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26766, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 344.0, "QuestionHeading": "Railways", "QuestionHeadingID": 26775, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 419.0, "DisplayOrder": 419.0, "ID": 26775, "ParentID": 26766 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 424.0, "ContributionID": 707110, "EditedText": "If Mr MacAskill likes, I can provide him with a written answer on that detailed matter.", "EditedTextHTML": "If Mr MacAskill likes, I can provide him with a written answer on that detailed matter.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:13.3570755+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C707130", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26765, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26766, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 344.0, "QuestionHeading": "Teachers", "QuestionHeadingID": 26779, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 465.0, "DisplayOrder": 465.0, "ID": 26779, "ParentID": 26766 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 468.0, "ContributionID": 707130, "EditedText": "Does the minister agree that industrial action by teachers would have devastating implications for children in our classrooms and that averting such action should be one of his top priorities? Does he further agree that the only way to bring about a resolution of the dispute is to negotiate, with both sides being willing to compromise? Does the minister agree that one of the areas on which the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities must compromise is the proposal to increase the limit on composite class sizes? Rather than issuing idle threats from the sidelines, will he give a commitment that, if necessary, he will provide the additional resources to ensure that 100,000 children in Scotland do not end up in higher-sized classes than they are in at the moment?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the minister agree that industrial action by teachers would have devastating implications for children in our classrooms and that averting such action should be one of his top priorities? Does he further agree that the only way to bring about a resolution of the dispute is to negotiate, with both sides being willing to compromise?

Does the minister agree that one of the areas on which the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities must compromise is the proposal to increase the limit on composite class sizes? Rather than issuing idle threats from the sidelines, will he give

a commitment that, if necessary, he will provide the additional resources to ensure that 100,000 children in Scotland do not end up in higher-sized classes than they are in at the moment?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:00:59.8834011+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C707018", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 220.0, "ContributionID": 707018, "EditedText": "Not just at the moment.Alex Salmond referred to this as \"Groundhog Day\". We all have to hope that that movie is not repeated on television as often as the commitments in the document are repeated in and outwith this Parliament. It is not the repetition that should have the Labour ministers—if most of them were here— hanging their heads in shame, but their total lack of aspiration. Donald Dewar says that the document is about allowing people to hold ministers accountable.", "EditedTextHTML": "Not just at the moment.

Alex Salmond referred to this as \"Groundhog Day\". We all have to hope that that movie is not repeated on television as often as the commitments in the document are repeated in and outwith this Parliament.

It is not the repetition that should have the Labour ministers—if most of them were here— hanging their heads in shame, but their total lack of aspiration. Donald Dewar says that the document is about allowing people to hold ministers accountable.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:00:50.3207435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C707024", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 232.0, "ContributionID": 707024, "EditedText": "I have already taken one intervention from the First Minister. He asked what I thought an aspirational Government should be doing. It should be pushing out the boundaries and raising aspirations. How about a genuine rolling programme of repairs to our school buildings, throughout this country, that is worked out in consultation with councils so that the educational experience of children will be improved? The First Minister said that one of the Government's key pledges was to reduce class sizes. That is commendable. However, the Minister for Children and Education said in yesterday's Education Committee meeting that he had no problem with the idea of 100,000 Scottish schoolchildren going into higher composite classes, as is proposed by the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities. How does that square with the First Minister's commitment to reducing class sizes? Is his rhetoric as far removed from reality as that of his education minister? Like Mr Salmond, I do not resent the proposals that are made in this document but, for goodness' sake, the Government should get on with them—it has promised them for long enough—and move on to tackle some of the other issues that affect people in this country.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have already taken one intervention from the First Minister. He asked what I thought an aspirational Government should be doing. It should be pushing out the boundaries and raising aspirations. How about a genuine rolling programme of repairs to our school buildings, throughout this country, that is worked out in consultation with councils so that the educational experience of children will be improved?

The First Minister said that one of the Government's key pledges was to reduce class sizes. That is commendable. However, the Minister for Children and Education said in yesterday's Education Committee meeting that he had no problem with the idea of 100,000 Scottish schoolchildren going into higher composite classes, as is proposed by the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities. How does that square with the First Minister's commitment to reducing class sizes? Is his rhetoric as far removed from reality as that of his education minister?

Like Mr Salmond, I do not resent the proposals that are made in this document but, for goodness' sake, the Government should get on with them—it has promised them for long enough—and move on to tackle some of the other issues that affect people in this country.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:00:50.3207435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C706928", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 33.0, "ContributionID": 706928, "EditedText": "I certainly welcome the good job prospects that those announcements bring, but does the First Minister intend to make representations today to the monetary policy committee of the Bank of England about its decision to raise interest rates? That decision drew a critical statement from the Royal Bank of Scotland, which said that the decision was not giving growth a chance and was motivated by a 10 per cent increase in house prices in the south of England rather than a 1 per cent increase in Scotland. When will the First Minister stand up for the Scottish economy?", "EditedTextHTML": "I certainly welcome the good job prospects that those announcements bring, but does the First Minister intend to make representations today to the monetary policy committee of the Bank of England about its decision to raise interest rates? That decision drew a critical statement from the Royal Bank of Scotland, which said that the decision was not giving growth a chance and was motivated by a 10 per cent increase in house

prices in the south of England rather than a 1 per cent increase in Scotland. When will the First Minister stand up for the Scottish economy?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:24:23.7026612+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C706930", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 37.0, "ContributionID": 706930, "EditedText": "The First Minister talked about there being no room for complacency and said that complaints about interest rate rises were somewhat perverse. What would he say to the chief executive of Scottish Engineering, Peter Hughes—one of the people appointed to important positions in the Government policy-making unit by the Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning? Yesterday, Peter Hughes said: \"This shows that the Monetary Policy Committee ignores the pain being suffered in Scotland.\" The director of the Confederation of Business and Industry Scotland, Mr Iain McMillan—not known as a staunch supporter of my positions on many issues—says: \"It is all very well for the overheating south of the Border, but it is not happening here in Scotland.\" I ask the First Minister: is the Scottish economy overheating or not?", "EditedTextHTML": "The First Minister talked about there being no room for complacency and said that complaints about interest rate rises were somewhat perverse. What would he say to the chief executive of Scottish Engineering, Peter Hughes—one of the people appointed to important positions in the Government policy-making unit by the Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning? Yesterday, Peter Hughes said:

\"This shows that the Monetary Policy Committee ignores the pain being suffered in Scotland.\"

The director of the Confederation of Business and Industry Scotland, Mr Iain McMillan—not known as a staunch supporter of my positions on many issues—says:

\"It is all very well for the overheating south of the Border, but it is not happening here in Scotland.\"

I ask the First Minister: is the Scottish economy overheating or not?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:24:23.7026612+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2110E214P424C706953", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gibson, Kenneth", "ID": 2110, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenneth Gibson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Kenneth Gibson (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 84.0, "ContributionID": 706953, "EditedText": "On a point of order. Surely it is up to the individual on his feet to decide whether to take an intervention.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. Surely it is up to the individual on his feet to decide whether to take an intervention.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:25:39.4616009+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1857E136P222C706957", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26763, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26763, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeill, Pauline", "ID": 1857, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Kelvin" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Pauline McNeill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Pauline McNeill (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 93.0, "ContributionID": 706957, "EditedText": "David McLetchie said that the First Minister should be embarrassed. Should not he be embarrassed given that under the Conservative Government unemployment was at its highest and that under Labour it is at its lowest?", "EditedTextHTML": "David McLetchie said that the First Minister should be embarrassed. Should not he be embarrassed given that under the Conservative Government unemployment was at its highest and that under Labour it is at its lowest?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:25:39.4616009+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C707355", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Clackmannanshire and West Fife (Unemployment) ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26793, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 902.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 902.0, "ID": 26793, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 922.0, "ContributionID": 707355, "EditedText": "I have received Mr Johnston's request, and representations from other members about the role that the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee can play in relation to the issues that he raises. The points will be raised with the committee next Wednesday, when we will establish our work programme for the following year.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have received Mr Johnston's request, and representations from other members about the role that the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee can play in relation to the issues that he raises.

The points will be raised with the committee next Wednesday, when we will establish our work programme for the following year.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:32:49.6287351+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C707243", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Sep 1999", "ID": 4176 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Programme for Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26788, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 590.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 590.0, "ID": 26788, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 714.0, "ContributionID": 707243, "EditedText": "The simple answer is no. John McAllion has made his position on PFI quite clear. He said: \"The Tories may have gone, but their ideas live on under the name PFI\". In response to Mr Finnie's point, Matt Smith, one of the critics of PFI in the public sector, has made a number of comments in his critique of the policy. Following Mr McConnell's announcements to Parliament about the supposed change of direction on this issue, Matt Smith said: \"PFI is still a bad way of financing public services. It will still cost the taxpayer more. It will still break up the team delivering Scotland's public services and there are still other, better ways of accessing public sector borrowing that could help\". The debate on that issue has not advanced much further as a result of the contribution made by the Liberal Democrats.In winding up, I want to concentrate on some remarks that were made earlier.", "EditedTextHTML": "The simple answer is no. John McAllion has made his position on PFI quite clear. He said:

\"The Tories may have gone, but their ideas live on under the name PFI\".

In response to Mr Finnie's point, Matt Smith, one of the critics of PFI in the public sector, has made a number of comments in his critique of the policy. Following Mr McConnell's announcements to Parliament about the supposed change of direction on this issue, Matt Smith said:

\"PFI is still a bad way of financing public services. It will still cost the taxpayer more. It will still break up the team delivering Scotland's public services and there are still other, better ways of accessing public sector borrowing that could help\".

The debate on that issue has not advanced much further as a result of the contribution made

by the Liberal Democrats.

In winding up, I want to concentrate on some remarks that were made earlier.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:30:29.7611592+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1756E184P464C706718", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Grahame, Christine", "ID": 1756, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Christine Grahame", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 78.0, "ContributionID": 706718, "EditedText": "In the legislation that is proposed by Mr Wallace, the point is that the patient will continue to be detained in hospital, whether or not for medical treatment. That sounds as if a hospital will become a mental dustbin for people and, as such, takes away society's obligations to treat people who are so detained while at the same time taking away their liberty. It has been said time and again that Mr Ruddle was treatable; he simply did not receive the treatment. Amendment 7 strikes a balance between the rights of society—", "EditedTextHTML": "In the legislation that is proposed by Mr Wallace, the point is that the patient will continue to be detained in hospital, whether or not for medical treatment. That sounds as if a hospital will become a mental dustbin for people and, as such, takes away society's obligations to treat people who are so detained while at the same time taking away their liberty. It has been said time and again that Mr Ruddle was treatable; he simply did not receive the treatment.

Amendment 7 strikes a balance between the rights of society—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:01:00.1970678+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706676", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Wednesday 8 September 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26756, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26756, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 3.0, "ContributionID": 706676, "EditedText": "Before we begin this afternoon's proceedings, I would like to say that the Procedures Committee agreed yesterday on the form of address to be used for the occupants of the chair. It suggested that each of us may be addressed simply as Presiding Officer—without the use of Mr, Madam or Deputy in front of it—or by using our names. All three of us warmly endorse that recommendation. As it involves no change in the standing orders, I suggest that we adopt the practice immediately and that we rule out of order the use of speaker, deputy speaker or more exotic epithets.", "EditedTextHTML": "Before we begin this afternoon's proceedings, I would like to say that the Procedures Committee agreed yesterday on the form of address to be used for the occupants of the chair. It suggested that each of us may be addressed simply as Presiding Officer—without the use of Mr, Madam or Deputy in front of it—or by using our names. All three of us warmly endorse that recommendation. As it involves no change in the standing orders, I suggest that we adopt the practice immediately and that we rule out of order the use of speaker, deputy speaker or more exotic epithets.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706675", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Wednesday 8 September 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26756, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26756, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 2.0, "ContributionID": 706675, "EditedText": "THE PRESIDING OFFICER opened the meeting at 14:30", "EditedTextHTML": "[THE PRESIDING OFFICER opened the meeting at 14:30]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706681", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26757, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26757, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 13.0, "ContributionID": 706681, "EditedText": "That the Parliament, for the purposes of any Act of the Scottish Parliament resulting from the Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill, agrees to the following expenditure payable out of the Scottish Consolidated Fund— (a) expenditure by the Scottish Ministers in consequence of the Act; and (b) increases attributable to the Act in sums payable out of that Fund by or under any other Act.—Mr McConnell. The Presiding Officer: The question is, that motion S1M-118 be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament, for the purposes of any Act of the Scottish Parliament resulting from the Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill, agrees to the following expenditure payable out of the Scottish Consolidated Fund— (a) expenditure by the Scottish Ministers in consequence of the Act; and (b) increases attributable to the Act in sums payable out of that Fund by or under any other Act.—[Mr McConnell.] The Presiding Officer: The question is, that motion S1M-118 be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706684", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26757, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26757, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 17.0, "ContributionID": 706684, "EditedText": "Motion moved,", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion moved,

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706689", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26757, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26757, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 22.0, "ContributionID": 706689, "EditedText": "Sections 2 and 3 up to and including line 4 on page 4 of the Bill - 1 hour 50 minutes", "EditedTextHTML": "Sections 2 and 3 up to and including line 4 on page 4 of the Bill - 1 hour 50 minutes

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706695", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26757, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26757, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 28.0, "ContributionID": 706695, "EditedText": "The question is, that motion S1M-130 be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "The question is, that motion S1M-130 be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706696", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26757, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26757, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 30.0, "ContributionID": 706696, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C706703", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice (Mr Jim Wallace): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 44.0, "ContributionID": 706703, "EditedText": "I am sure that Dennis Canavan will acknowledge that the letter was given to him as a member who has lodged amendments. It has been published, along with a written answer from me, because Mr Millan wanted the contents to be made available to the Parliament. Indeed, copies of the correspondence are available at the information point at the back of the chamber.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sure that Dennis Canavan will acknowledge that the letter was given to him as a member who has lodged amendments. It has been published, along with a written answer from me, because Mr Millan wanted the contents to be made available to the Parliament. Indeed, copies of the correspondence are available at the information point at the back of the chamber.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C706704", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 46.0, "ContributionID": 706704, "EditedText": "I am grateful to the Deputy First Minister for that intervention and I strongly recommend that members read Bruce Millan's letter before voting on the amendments. Writing on behalf of his committee, Bruce Millan says that the committee has asked him \"to express serious concern about the effect of the Scottish Executive's response to the Sheriff's decision in the case of Noel Ruddle\". He goes on to say that\"it is a matter of great regret to us that a complex and difficult area is being dealt with by emergency legislation, in a timescale which has made it impossible for us to consider the terms of the Bill with the care that it requires.\" He also says—and this has relevance to my group of amendments—that the committee \"feels that the scope of the legislation seems to us to go beyond a limited response to the Ruddle case, and elevates a necessary regard for public safety above matters of treatment and appropriate care, in a manner which is damaging to the way in which we deal with mental health problems generally.\" He states:\"We would add that mental health legislation is intended to deal with many people with differing needs, not only the tiny number who pose a serious danger to the public.\" In the words of the chairman of the review committee, the bill attempts to deal with the \"tiny number\" of the people in Scotland who are suffering from mental ill health and who are dangerous or potentially dangerous. We should target that group of people in a precise way. I am not convinced that the wording of the legislation does that, which is why I lodged the amendments. They would ensure not only that there was still adequate protection for public safety, but that people who presented a threat to public safety were precisely targeted by the emergency legislation. Amendments 4, 13, 19 and 23 are similarly worded, as are 5, 14, 20 and 24. If someone has a condition which cannot be treated and the sheriff, in hearing an appeal, comes to the conclusion that, on the evidence given to him, the person's condition cannot be treated, why should that person be detained in a hospital? If the person constitutes such a danger or potential danger to the public that he or she ought to be detained, the question arises whether a hospital is the best place for that person to be detained. Would not a high-security prison be a more appropriate place for someone who has a condition that cannot be treated in hospital? What is the point of sending someone back to hospital if that person cannot be given adequate, required treatment? Under the Scotland Act 1998, we have a responsibility to ensure that all the legislation passed by this Parliament is in accordance with the European convention on human rights. However, doubts have been expressed about whether the bill conforms to it. The Law Society of Scotland wrote to me—I assume that it wrote a similar letter to all members—saying: \"The Parliament in enacting such legislation will need to be satisfied that the Bill is consistent with provisions of Section 29 of the Scotland Act 1998, especially in relation to compliance with the European Convention on Human Rights. This is particularly pertinent due to the creation of the new ground of detention in section 1\". It refers to that ground of detention as\"a form of preventative detention\", and says that it is \"important to know what rights will attach to those affected by this bill and what resources will be applied.\" Roseanna Cunningham may deal with this matter when she speaks to her amendment—the principles behind which I also support—but I would like the Minister for Justice or Lord Advocate or whoever is replying in this debate to tell us what study they have given to possible conflict with the European convention on human rights and how they can justify saying that this legislation is consistent with the terms of the convention.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful to the Deputy First Minister for that intervention and I strongly recommend that members read Bruce Millan's letter before voting on the amendments. Writing on behalf of his committee, Bruce Millan says that the committee has asked him

\"to express serious concern about the effect of the Scottish Executive's response to the Sheriff's decision in the case of Noel Ruddle\".

He goes on to say that

\"it is a matter of great regret to us that a complex and difficult area is being dealt with by emergency legislation, in a timescale which has made it impossible for us to consider the terms of the Bill with the care that it requires.\"

He also says—and this has relevance to my group of amendments—that the committee

\"feels that the scope of the legislation seems to us to go beyond a limited response to the Ruddle case, and elevates a necessary regard for public safety above matters of treatment and appropriate care, in a manner which is damaging to the way in which we deal with mental health problems generally.\"

He states:

\"We would add that mental health legislation is intended to deal with many people with differing needs, not only the tiny number who pose a serious danger to the public.\"

In the words of the chairman of the review committee, the bill attempts to deal with the \"tiny number\" of the people in Scotland who are suffering from mental ill health and who are dangerous or potentially dangerous. We should target that group of people in a precise way. I am not convinced that the wording of the legislation does that, which is why I lodged the amendments. They would ensure not only that there was still adequate protection for public safety, but that people who presented a threat to public safety were precisely targeted by the emergency legislation.

Amendments 4, 13, 19 and 23 are similarly worded, as are 5, 14, 20 and 24. If someone has a condition which cannot be treated and the sheriff, in hearing an appeal, comes to the conclusion that, on the evidence given to him, the person's condition cannot be treated, why should that person be detained in a hospital? If the person constitutes such a danger or potential danger to the public that he or she ought to be detained, the question arises whether a hospital is the best place for that person to be detained. Would not a high-security prison be a more appropriate place for someone who has a condition that cannot be treated in hospital? What is the point of sending someone back to hospital if that person cannot be given adequate, required treatment?

Under the Scotland Act 1998, we have a responsibility to ensure that all the legislation passed by this Parliament is in accordance with the European convention on human rights. However, doubts have been expressed about whether the bill conforms to it. The Law Society of Scotland wrote to me—I assume that it wrote a similar letter to all members—saying:

\"The Parliament in enacting such legislation will need to be satisfied that the Bill is consistent with provisions of Section 29 of the Scotland Act 1998, especially in relation to compliance with the European Convention on Human Rights. This is particularly pertinent due to the creation of the new ground of detention in section 1\".

It refers to that ground of detention as

\"a form of preventative detention\", and says that it is

\"important to know what rights will attach to those affected by this bill and what resources will be applied.\"

Roseanna Cunningham may deal with this matter when she speaks to her amendment—the principles behind which I also support—but I would like the Minister for Justice or Lord Advocate or whoever is replying in this debate to tell us what study they have given to possible conflict with the European convention on human rights and how they can justify saying that this legislation is consistent with the terms of the convention.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706705", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Convener: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 48.0, "ContributionID": 706705, "EditedText": "Will you move amendment 2?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will you move amendment 2?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706709", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Convener: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 56.0, "ContributionID": 706709, "EditedText": "Thank you. I call Roseanna Cunningham—", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you. I call Roseanna Cunningham—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C706710", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 58.0, "ContributionID": 706710, "EditedText": "I am sorry, convener. I move—", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry, convener. I move—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1863E284P532C706712", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Cunningham, Roseanna", "ID": 1863, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Perth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Roseanna Cunningham", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Roseanna Cunningham (Perth) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 62.0, "ContributionID": 706712, "EditedText": "The SNP amendments are designed to focus on those areas over which we consider there to be question marks and to which we consider significant improvements can be made while retaining the core point of the legislation. In that spirit, amendment 7, which stands in my name and in the name of my colleague, Michael Matheson, has been designed to deal with a situation that arose in the Ruddle case. It relates not to the question of his release, but to the debate about his treatment while he was in Carstairs. We have dubbed this question the \"treatability question\". I will not refer at length to Bruce Millan's letter, but I note that he refers to his concern about the bill's involvement in \"matters of treatment and appropriate care\".The amendment was lodged in that context.Last week, I argued that, rather than being untreatable, Noel Ruddle was, in fact, treatable but that the state hospital at Carstairs did not have the means by which to treat him. To support that comment, I refer to the sheriff's judgment in the Ruddle case. Under the general heading \"Progress in the State Hospital\", the sheriff makes a number of findings. I make no apology for quoting him at some length, as what he says is extremely important in the context of our discussion. Paragraph 7.4 of the sheriff's judgment says: \"The applicant was referred for psychological treatment interventions or therapy packages in October 1994 and April 1995 but, apart from being assessed for psychological treatment, none was made available to the applicant and, in January 1997, his Responsible Medical Officer was informed that the psychology department in the hospital had no-one then providing a service to patients with addiction problems.\" Paragraph 7.15 says:\"By the time the Medical Sub-Committee came to review the applicant's case in 1998, it was known that none of the psychological treatment planned since 1994, and expected at the State Hospital up to 1997, had taken place\". We should not be hugely surprised that, after that catalogue of non-treatment, Mr Ruddle was reclassified as \"untreatable\". That is to use the word untreatable in a rather different context from the one in which most people in this debate apprehend it. The suspicion looms large that \"untreatable\" in the context of the above meant \"untreatable at Carstairs\", given the resources that were available at the time. Nothing that was said in last Thursday's debate or anywhere else removes that suspicion. The suspicion that such circumstances could arise again could be removed if we built into the legislation what is proposed in this amendment. The sheriff could make an order on the delivery of treatment to an individual—not on the treatment itself, which is not the sheriff's responsibility—and ensure that the authorities complied with it within a reasonable time scale. The provision would be discretionary. I heard what Mr McLetchie said, but we are not for making it mandatory. If Mr McLetchie reads the amendment carefully, he will realise that the order would be made only if the sheriff considered it appropriate in all the circumstances that he has heard in a case. I do not think that that is an outrageous imposition. In any civilised society, if people are detained in such circumstances the utmost must be done to ensure that treatment is made available to them. The bill's total lack of any such assurance is causing much of the concern that is being expressed by many external commentators, including some who have already been mentioned. The Scottish Association for Mental Health has flagged up the failure to treat Ruddle over a period of five years as a major issue in the provision of mental health services. Things should never have come to that. If the treatment that was deemed appropriate had been delivered to Mr Ruddle, we would not be here now. However, there is no mention in the bill of any measures that would ensure that patients will have the right to access treatment where that treatment exists. Without this amendment, we are in danger of defining a small category of individuals who can be dumped, apparently with impunity. We should not do that and we should not allow the suspicion that we are doing it to arise. This is not the place for a full-scale debate on the provision of mental health services, although I hope that such a debate will have been triggered as a result of our deliberations over the past few weeks. We can at least ensure that this bill, which covers only a small number of people, contains a safeguard that no one will be left, as Noel Ruddle was for years, without the treatment that his doctors at the time thought appropriate.", "EditedTextHTML": "The SNP amendments are designed to focus on those areas over which we consider there to be question marks and to which we consider significant improvements can be made while retaining the core point of the legislation.

In that spirit, amendment 7, which stands in my name and in the name of my colleague, Michael Matheson, has been designed to deal with a situation that arose in the Ruddle case. It relates not to the question of his release, but to the debate about his treatment while he was in Carstairs. We have dubbed this question the \"treatability question\". I will not refer at length to Bruce Millan's letter, but I note that he refers to his concern about the bill's involvement in

\"matters of treatment and appropriate care\".

The amendment was lodged in that context.

Last week, I argued that, rather than being untreatable, Noel Ruddle was, in fact, treatable but that the state hospital at Carstairs did not have the means by which to treat him. To support that comment, I refer to the sheriff's judgment in the Ruddle case. Under the general heading \"Progress in the State Hospital\", the sheriff makes a number of findings. I make no apology for quoting him at some length, as what he says is extremely important in the context of our discussion.
Paragraph 7.4 of the sheriff's judgment says: \"The applicant was referred for psychological treatment interventions or therapy packages in October 1994 and April 1995 but, apart from being assessed for psychological treatment, none was made available to the applicant and, in January 1997, his Responsible Medical Officer was informed that the psychology department in the hospital had no-one then providing a service to patients with addiction problems.\"

Paragraph 7.15 says:

\"By the time the Medical Sub-Committee came to review the applicant's case in 1998, it was known that none of the psychological treatment planned since 1994, and expected at the State Hospital up to 1997, had taken place\".

We should not be hugely surprised that, after that catalogue of non-treatment, Mr Ruddle was reclassified as \"untreatable\". That is to use the word untreatable in a rather different context from the one in which most people in this debate apprehend it. The suspicion looms large that \"untreatable\" in the context of the above meant \"untreatable at Carstairs\", given the resources that were available at the time. Nothing that was said

in last Thursday's debate or anywhere else removes that suspicion.

The suspicion that such circumstances could arise again could be removed if we built into the legislation what is proposed in this amendment. The sheriff could make an order on the delivery of treatment to an individual—not on the treatment itself, which is not the sheriff's responsibility—and ensure that the authorities complied with it within a reasonable time scale. The provision would be discretionary. I heard what Mr McLetchie said, but we are not for making it mandatory. If Mr McLetchie reads the amendment carefully, he will realise that the order would be made only if the sheriff considered it appropriate in all the circumstances that he has heard in a case.

I do not think that that is an outrageous imposition. In any civilised society, if people are detained in such circumstances the utmost must be done to ensure that treatment is made available to them. The bill's total lack of any such assurance is causing much of the concern that is being expressed by many external commentators, including some who have already been mentioned.

The Scottish Association for Mental Health has flagged up the failure to treat Ruddle over a period of five years as a major issue in the provision of mental health services. Things should never have come to that. If the treatment that was deemed appropriate had been delivered to Mr Ruddle, we would not be here now. However, there is no mention in the bill of any measures that would ensure that patients will have the right to access treatment where that treatment exists. Without this amendment, we are in danger of defining a small category of individuals who can be dumped, apparently with impunity. We should not do that and we should not allow the suspicion that we are doing it to arise.

This is not the place for a full-scale debate on the provision of mental health services, although I hope that such a debate will have been triggered as a result of our deliberations over the past few weeks. We can at least ensure that this bill, which covers only a small number of people, contains a safeguard that no one will be left, as Noel Ruddle was for years, without the treatment that his doctors at the time thought appropriate.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C706715", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 70.0, "ContributionID": 706715, "EditedText": "When I come to deal specifically with Ms Cunningham's amendments, I will try to give her some reassurances about the provision for patients in the state hospital. I hope that Mr Canavan will appreciate that amendment 2 falls short of what we are trying to achieve in the bill, and that he will not press it. Amendment 3 was spoken to by Mr Gallie. It seeks to amend the test of \"serious harm\" to the public to the lesser test of simply \"harm\". Some of the points that I addressed to Mr Canavan are relevant. When considering the crucial provision, we chose the term \"serious harm\" with care. It is a term that is used in criminal law and in mental health legislation. Its meaning is well understood, and is applied by sheriffs and judges. It achieves our aim of detaining only patients who present a serious risk to the public. It is not the intention of this Parliament that any person with a mental disorder who has committed an offence should be detained in hospital for ever and a day. That would be well beyond what we feel is required to protect the public. Indeed, it is questionable whether that would comply with our obligations under the European convention on human rights. I repeat our view that the bill as drafted achieves the correct balance between the safety of the public and the rights of those with mental disorders. In doing so, it uses a legislative term that is already familiar. Amendment 4 seeks to leave out \"hospital\" as a place where a patient can be detained to protect the public from serious harm. The fact is that a patient on a hospital order and a restriction order who loses his appeal must continue to be detained in hospital. If that is the sentence of the court, there is no power that allows for that person to be transferred to a prison. The European convention on human rights makes it absolutely clear that a patient must continue to be detained in a hospital; there is not an alternative. Where a patient is on a transfer direction and a restriction direction, and the sheriff is satisfied that the patient has a mental disorder that meets the public safety test, the patient will remain detained in hospital. He will not be transferred to prison; there is no power that allows him to be transferred to prison. That relates to the Ruddle case. A provision that was introduced in more recent legislation did not apply in Ruddle's case, because the case came up before the provision was introduced. There is now a provision whereby a court may impose a hospital direction that allows a person convicted of an offence to go first to hospital and then, if he recovers, to prison. However, that can happen only in cases where a hospital direction has been imposed by the courts. That was not the case with Ruddle; nor is it the case with others whose cases came to court before the introduction of that order, which came into force on, I think, 1 January 1998. Getting the balance right between hospital and prison for people who commit crimes and have personality disorders is an issue that the MacLean committee is considering.", "EditedTextHTML": "When I come to deal specifically with Ms Cunningham's amendments, I will try to give her some reassurances about the provision for patients in the state hospital.

I hope that Mr Canavan will appreciate that amendment 2 falls short of what we are trying to achieve in the bill, and that he will not press it.

Amendment 3 was spoken to by Mr Gallie. It seeks to amend the test of \"serious harm\" to the public to the lesser test of simply \"harm\". Some of the points that I addressed to Mr Canavan are relevant. When considering the crucial provision, we chose the term \"serious harm\" with care. It is a term that is used in criminal law and in mental health legislation. Its meaning is well understood, and is applied by sheriffs and judges. It achieves our aim of detaining only patients who present a serious risk to the public. It is not the intention of this Parliament that any person with a mental disorder who has committed an offence should be detained in hospital for ever and a day. That would be well beyond what we feel is required to protect the public. Indeed, it is questionable whether that would comply with our obligations under the European convention on human rights. I repeat our view that the bill as drafted achieves the correct balance between the safety of the public and the rights of those with mental disorders. In doing so, it uses a legislative term that is already familiar.

Amendment 4 seeks to leave out \"hospital\" as a place where a patient can be detained to protect the public from serious harm. The fact is that a patient on a hospital order and a restriction order who loses his appeal must continue to be detained in hospital. If that is the sentence of the court, there is no power that allows for that person to be transferred to a prison. The European convention on human rights makes it absolutely clear that a patient must continue to be detained in a hospital; there is not an alternative. Where a patient is on a transfer direction and a restriction direction, and the sheriff is satisfied that the patient has a mental disorder that meets the public safety test, the patient will remain detained in hospital. He will not be transferred to prison; there is no power that allows him to be transferred to prison. That relates to the Ruddle case.

A provision that was introduced in more recent legislation did not apply in Ruddle's case, because the case came up before the provision was

introduced. There is now a provision whereby a court may impose a hospital direction that allows a person convicted of an offence to go first to hospital and then, if he recovers, to prison. However, that can happen only in cases where a hospital direction has been imposed by the courts. That was not the case with Ruddle; nor is it the case with others whose cases came to court before the introduction of that order, which came into force on, I think, 1 January 1998.

Getting the balance right between hospital and prison for people who commit crimes and have personality disorders is an issue that the MacLean committee is considering.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C706716", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 72.0, "ContributionID": 706716, "EditedText": "If, in a particular case, the sheriff comes to the conclusion that the patient cannot be treated, what is the point of sending the patient back to hospital? Is not that just reducing the role of hospital staff and nurses to that of prison warders?", "EditedTextHTML": "If, in a particular case, the sheriff comes to the conclusion that the patient cannot be treated, what is the point of sending the patient back to hospital? Is not that just reducing the role of hospital staff and nurses to that of prison warders?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C706717", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 74.0, "ContributionID": 706717, "EditedText": "The sheriff has to decide whether the patient is suffering from a mental disorder, and then decide—and this is the loophole that we are trying to close with the legislation—whether the person poses a threat of serious harm to the public. The person must continue to be detained if the sheriff believes that the First Minister has discharged his burden of proof in establishing that the person could cause serious harm to the public. The purpose is to ensure continuous detention in the interests of public safety. That goes to the heart of what we are trying to do with the bill—to close a loophole. Under the law as it stands—and as it was applied to cases before the introduction of hospital directions— there is no power to transfer to prison a person who has been committed to a hospital by the court. It might be contrary to the European convention on human rights to do so. We are saying that a person who has a mental disorder must remain in hospital. Mr Gallie spoke to amendment 9. Our concern is that if it is accepted, it could cast doubt on the ability of the state hospital to hold patients who might be regarded as untreatable. That could well undermine the bill. One can imagine a clever lawyer using the argument that the state hospital could not hold a patient deemed untreatable by the sheriff. I am not saying that would succeed, but it is an argument that could be used. That might be another loophole; this is an effort to close it. We want to ensure that that argument is not available to a future case. Mr Canavan spoke to amendment 5. He wants to leave out from section 1: \"whether for medical treatment or not\".That raises many similar arguments. Mr Ruddle was successful in his appeal as he was deemed to be untreatable. To remove those words from the section would mean that someone who was deemed to be untreatable could not be detained in hospital, irrespective of the fact that he continued to be a serious risk to the public. That would strike at the heart of what the bill is trying to achieve. Mr McLetchie and Ms Cunningham mentioned the availability of treatment. Amendments 6 and 7 would allow sheriffs to make recommendations on the suitability of keeping a patient in hospital and on the facilities and services that could be made available to the patient. Amendment 7 would further give a permissive power to sheriffs to make an order requiring the provision of particular treatment services, with which Scottish ministers would have to comply. This bill asserts the primacy of public safety when a sheriff considers an appeal. The Government is concerned that linking public safety and service issues in the way that such amendments tend to do would run counter to the aim of the bill. The bill singles out public safety as the principal test to which sheriffs must have regard. I accept that it is right that no hospital should be just a place to which patients are sent, with the key then thrown away without attention being paid to what is necessary for the patients' welfare and well-being. It is important that hospital management and ministers have regard to those considerations, and we do. The aim of the inquiry that we requested of the Mental Welfare Commission for Scotland was to give us guidance in relation to the services and facilities that could be provided for patients who are untreatable. I am pleased to give the assurance that the state hospital will be allocated the resources that it needs to provide the care and treatment that are determined by clinicians as being appropriate to their patients. It is important that clinicians, not sheriffs, determine the treatment. Mr Gallie also referred to amendment 8. The burden of proof in relation to the new public safety provision falls on Scottish ministers. We take it seriously, and we will make sure that the best possible advice is taken in reaching a view on any case and in presenting a case to a sheriff. It follows that the maximum flexibility must be available to us, so that we are not constrained in our access to sources of advice and information in discharging the responsibilities that the bill confers. The views of medical personnel in the hospitalsconcerned will be important. A report from the responsible medical officer will be essential. As has been recognised, we might want to commission independent medical advice—as the secretary of state did in the case of Noel Ruddle. Although important, medical advice will not be the only input required. We might want to take into account the views of the police and might wish to seek information from security personnel at the state hospital. Social work might have an input. I hope that Mr Gallie appreciates and that the Parliament recognises that the way in which ministers discharge their responsibilities will inevitably vary from case to case; it would be wrong for the statute to constrain us in any way. We should draw upon the advice that is mentioned in the amendment, but it is essential to maintain maximum flexibility to draw upon any relevant source of advice in the given circumstances of an individual case. I appreciate that the issues are complex and important. I have tried to provide some explanations. Members will have further opportunity for comment and I will try—if I can—to provide further explanation.", "EditedTextHTML": "The sheriff has to decide whether the patient is suffering from a mental disorder, and then decide—and this is the loophole that we are trying to close with the legislation—whether the person poses a threat of serious harm to the public. The person must continue to be detained if the sheriff believes that the First Minister has discharged his burden of proof in establishing that the person could cause serious harm to the public. The purpose is to ensure continuous detention in the interests of public safety.

That goes to the heart of what we are trying to do with the bill—to close a loophole. Under the law as it stands—and as it was applied to cases before the introduction of hospital directions— there is no power to transfer to prison a person who has been committed to a hospital by the court. It might be contrary to the European convention on human rights to do so. We are saying that a person who has a mental disorder must remain in hospital.
Mr Gallie spoke to amendment 9. Our concern is that if it is accepted, it could cast doubt on the ability of the state hospital to hold patients who might be regarded as untreatable. That could well undermine the bill. One can imagine a clever lawyer using the argument that the state hospital could not hold a patient deemed untreatable by the sheriff. I am not saying that would succeed, but it is an argument that could be used. That might be another loophole; this is an effort to close it. We want to ensure that that argument is not available to a future case.

Mr Canavan spoke to amendment 5. He wants to leave out from section 1:

\"whether for medical treatment or not\".

That raises many similar arguments. Mr Ruddle was successful in his appeal as he was deemed to be untreatable. To remove those words from the section would mean that someone who was deemed to be untreatable could not be detained in hospital, irrespective of the fact that he continued to be a serious risk to the public. That would strike at the heart of what the bill is trying to achieve.

Mr McLetchie and Ms Cunningham mentioned the availability of treatment. Amendments 6 and 7 would allow sheriffs to make recommendations on the suitability of keeping a patient in hospital and on the facilities and services that could be made available to the patient. Amendment 7 would further give a permissive power to sheriffs to make an order requiring the provision of particular treatment services, with which Scottish ministers would have to comply.

This bill asserts the primacy of public safety when a sheriff considers an appeal. The Government is concerned that linking public safety and service issues in the way that such amendments tend to do would run counter to the aim of the bill. The bill singles out public safety as the principal test to which sheriffs must have regard.

I accept that it is right that no hospital should be just a place to which patients are sent, with the key then thrown away without attention being paid to what is necessary for the patients' welfare and well-being.

It is important that hospital management and ministers have regard to those considerations, and we do. The aim of the inquiry that we requested of the Mental Welfare Commission for Scotland was to give us guidance in relation to the services and facilities that could be provided for patients who are untreatable.

I am pleased to give the assurance that the state hospital will be allocated the resources that it needs to provide the care and treatment that are determined by clinicians as being appropriate to their patients. It is important that clinicians, not sheriffs, determine the treatment.

Mr Gallie also referred to amendment 8. The burden of proof in relation to the new public safety provision falls on Scottish ministers. We take it seriously, and we will make sure that the best possible advice is taken in reaching a view on any case and in presenting a case to a sheriff.

It follows that the maximum flexibility must be available to us, so that we are not constrained in our access to sources of advice and information in discharging the responsibilities that the bill confers.

The views of medical personnel in the hospitals

concerned will be important. A report from the responsible medical officer will be essential. As has been recognised, we might want to commission independent medical advice—as the secretary of state did in the case of Noel Ruddle.

Although important, medical advice will not be the only input required. We might want to take into account the views of the police and might wish to seek information from security personnel at the state hospital. Social work might have an input.

I hope that Mr Gallie appreciates and that the Parliament recognises that the way in which ministers discharge their responsibilities will inevitably vary from case to case; it would be wrong for the statute to constrain us in any way. We should draw upon the advice that is mentioned in the amendment, but it is essential to maintain maximum flexibility to draw upon any relevant source of advice in the given circumstances of an individual case.

I appreciate that the issues are complex and important. I have tried to provide some explanations. Members will have further opportunity for comment and I will try—if I can—to provide further explanation.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C706722", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 86.0, "ContributionID": 706722, "EditedText": "Will Dr Simpson, with his expertise, expand upon the serious harm element? The minister suggests that there is a definition of \"serious\" in the eyes of the law that is well recognised, and I accept that. Dr Simpson suggested that there is some doubt in the mind of those in the medical profession about the interpretation of \"serious\"; perhaps he will expand on that.", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Dr Simpson, with his expertise, expand upon the serious harm element? The minister suggests that there is a definition of \"serious\" in the eyes of the law that is well recognised, and I accept that. Dr Simpson suggested that there is some doubt in the mind of those in the medical profession about the interpretation of \"serious\"; perhaps he will expand on that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C706723", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Simpson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 88.0, "ContributionID": 706723, "EditedText": "What I was trying to say in that regard was that when they decide what should remain confidential, psychiatrists must make a judgment of the risk to the public of not disclosing information about a particular patient. The debate at the moment—it is not resolved and is on-going— seems to revolve round the harm being fairly specific. If, for example, the patient says that they propose to go out and kill a specific individual, that is clearly a serious matter. If, on the other hand, they express a general threat that the public at large will be harmed, that might not be serious. That is a medical definition. I accept that it might be somewhat different from a court's definition of serious harm, but it is appropriate to keep the word \"serious\"—it should not be removed.", "EditedTextHTML": "What I was trying to say in that regard was that when they decide what should remain confidential, psychiatrists must make a judgment of the risk to the public of not disclosing information about a particular patient. The debate at the moment—it is not resolved and is on-going— seems to revolve round the harm being fairly specific.

If, for example, the patient says that they propose to go out and kill a specific individual, that is clearly a serious matter. If, on the other hand, they express a general threat that the public at large will be harmed, that might not be serious. That is a medical definition. I accept that it might be somewhat different from a court's definition of serious harm, but it is appropriate to keep the word \"serious\"—it should not be removed.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1863E284P532C706726", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Cunningham, Roseanna", "ID": 1863, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Perth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Roseanna Cunningham", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Roseanna Cunningham: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 95.0, "ContributionID": 706726, "EditedText": "Does Dr Simpson accept that a great deal of alarm—this is not on my behalf or on the SNP's behalf—is expressed by the Law Society of Scotland and by the Scottish Association of Mental Health? They feel that a real problem has been shown by the Ruddle case and are concerned that it could arise again. In order to safeguard against that, does he not accept that, although from his point of view incorporating my amendment would be, at worst, irrelevant, at best it might fix a problem that might recur?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does Dr Simpson accept that a great deal of alarm—this is not on my behalf or on the SNP's behalf—is expressed by the Law Society of Scotland and by the Scottish Association of Mental Health? They feel that a real problem has been shown by the Ruddle case and are concerned that it could arise again. In order to safeguard against that, does he not accept that, although from his point of view incorporating my amendment would be, at worst, irrelevant, at best it might fix a problem that might recur?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C706729", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Simpson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 101.0, "ContributionID": 706729, "EditedText": "I am sorry. I know that Ms Cunningham is not happy with that. This is a matter for clinical judgment. I am not happy that under the act the sheriff should make observations about what is or what is not good treatment. The question of treatment and what constitutes it is changing. The question of treatability and what is treatable is changing. I think that we should, rightly, hold the clinicians and the Executive to account for providing adequate treatment, but the law does not need an amendment to do that.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry. I know that Ms Cunningham is not happy with that. This is a matter for clinical judgment. I am not happy that under the act the sheriff should make observations about what is or what is not good treatment. The question of treatment and what constitutes it is changing. The question of treatability and what is treatable is changing. I think that we should, rightly, hold the clinicians and the Executive to account for providing adequate treatment, but the law does not need an amendment to do that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C706731", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Simpson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 105.0, "ContributionID": 706731, "EditedText": "I fully understand where Ms Cunningham is coming from, but it is not the appropriate way to deal with the issue. Section 1 deals with public safety, not treatment, and it should be left at that. If the amendment is agreed to, it will confuse the issue. Circumstances change. There will continue to be arguments among psychiatrists as to what constitutes appropriate treatment. Therefore, the amendment should be disagreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "I fully understand where Ms Cunningham is coming from, but it is not the appropriate way to deal with the issue. Section 1 deals with public safety, not treatment, and it should be left at that. If the amendment is agreed to, it will confuse the issue. Circumstances change. There will continue to be arguments among psychiatrists as to what constitutes appropriate treatment. Therefore, the amendment should be disagreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1985E207P501C706732", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hamilton, Mr Duncan", "ID": 1985, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Duncan Hamilton (Highlands and Islands) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 107.0, "ContributionID": 706732, "EditedText": "The SNP amendment should be seen in the context of the stage 1 debate on this bill; the most frustrating thing about that debate was the Executive's inability or unwillingness to answer the questions that were put to it. One of those questions was about the role of the responsible medical officer; the other was about treatability and the provision of services at Carstairs. Because of the lack of answers, amendment 7 tries to enshrine the rights of the individual within the context of public safety. Given that we have established the difference in the Ruddle case between the existence of treatment and the fact that it was not actually provided, I am now a little confused. What the sheriff said in court, and Roseanna Cunningham quoted at great length, is a damning indictment of the inability to provide the treatment required. I do not think that the answers given so far have reassured anybody. We have had two strands of thought. Mr Wallace said we should not worry about it; it will not happen again. I am afraid that if we are to trust him he will have to have a bit more of a track record than he has displayed so far. Then he said we should not worry because the matter has gone to the Mental Welfare Commission. That means that he is not confident that the facilities existed. I welcome that move, but if what is being considered is a one-off assessment of needs and services to find out whether they are adequate, why not extend that logic and enable the court to do exactly the same as is being suggested in this case? If it is worth examining the facilities this time to find out if they are adequate, why not do that in each case, as is suggested by the SNP amendment?", "EditedTextHTML": "The SNP amendment should be seen in the context of the stage 1 debate on this bill; the most frustrating thing about that debate was the Executive's inability or unwillingness to answer the questions that were put to it. One of those questions was about the role of the responsible medical officer; the other was about treatability and the provision of services at Carstairs. Because of the lack of answers, amendment 7 tries to enshrine the rights of the individual within the context of public safety.

Given that we have established the difference in the Ruddle case between the existence of treatment and the fact that it was not actually provided, I am now a little confused. What the sheriff said in court, and Roseanna Cunningham quoted at great length, is a damning indictment of the inability to provide the treatment required. I do not think that the answers given so far have reassured anybody.

We have had two strands of thought. Mr Wallace said we should not worry about it; it will not happen again. I am afraid that if we are to trust him he will have to have a bit more of a track record than he has displayed so far. Then he said we should not worry because the matter has gone to the Mental Welfare Commission. That means that he is not confident that the facilities existed. I welcome that move, but if what is being considered is a one-off assessment of needs and services to find out whether they are adequate, why not extend that logic and enable the court to do exactly the same as is being suggested in this case? If it is worth examining the facilities this time to find out if they are adequate, why not do that in each case, as is suggested by the SNP amendment?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706735", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Convener: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 113.0, "ContributionID": 706735, "EditedText": "Order. I do not have that responsibility.", "EditedTextHTML": "Order. I do not have that responsibility.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1990E181P340C706736", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robson, Euan", "ID": 1990, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Roxburgh and Berwickshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Euan Robson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Euan Robson (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 115.0, "ContributionID": 706736, "EditedText": "I will confine my remarks to amendment 7, and in particular the process that is described therein, as I do not understand it well. It appears from the amendment that the appeal and the sheriff's order can happen only once, and that ministers must then apply the sheriff's order. Does the facility exist to repeat the process if circumstances change? The way the amendment is phrased means that it is a one-off process. There is no mechanism in the amendment to allow the situation to be revisited if circumstances change after the order has been made and the timetable has been set. My difficulty with the amendment may be obscure, but it is serious, because if the amendment is agreed to and the process can operate only once and with no amending facility, in my view it is defective.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will confine my remarks to amendment 7, and in particular the process that is described therein, as I do not understand it well. It appears from the amendment that the appeal and the sheriff's order can happen only once, and that ministers must then apply the sheriff's order.

Does the facility exist to repeat the process if circumstances change? The way the amendment is phrased means that it is a one-off process. There is no mechanism in the amendment to allow the situation to be revisited if circumstances change after the order has been made and the timetable has been set. My difficulty with the amendment may be obscure, but it is serious, because if the amendment is agreed to and the process can operate only once and with no amending facility, in my view it is defective.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1811E172P455C706739", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ullrich, Kay", "ID": 1811, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kay Ullrich", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Kay Ullrich: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 121.0, "ContributionID": 706739, "EditedText": "I will not give way. We are pushed for time, so I will continue. As I said, we know that treatment was available for Ruddle's condition. If we enable a sheriff to consider the availability of treatment for a specific condition, he will be able to place the applicant in a facility where the appropriate treatment is available or, as Roseanna said, ensure the delivery of the treatment to the patient. It is not good enough to propose to use national health service resources as an extension of the prison service. At Carstairs we have a state hospital. The significant word there is hospital. Although it is a secure hospital, it should be in the business of providing treatment, not just containment. Our amendment is designed to ensure that at the time of appeal, the sheriff takes into account the availability of treatment and makes an order to ensure that it is delivered.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will not give way. We are pushed for time, so I will continue.

As I said, we know that treatment was available for Ruddle's condition. If we enable a sheriff to consider the availability of treatment for a specific condition, he will be able to place the applicant in a facility where the appropriate treatment is available or, as Roseanna said, ensure the delivery of the treatment to the patient. It is not good enough to propose to use national health service resources as an extension of the prison service.

At Carstairs we have a state hospital. The significant word there is hospital. Although it is a secure hospital, it should be in the business of providing treatment, not just containment.

Our amendment is designed to ensure that at the time of appeal, the sheriff takes into account the availability of treatment and makes an order to ensure that it is delivered.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2112E192P495C706740", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacAskill, Kenny", "ID": 2112, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenny MacAskill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Kenny MacAskill (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 123.0, "ContributionID": 706740, "EditedText": "The tragedy with legislation that is introduced in haste is that things are left out. I was appalled by the letter from the Mental Welfare Commission for Scotland to the Deputy First Minister, dated 6 September. Twenty years of being a lawyer taught me that if you do not know the answer yourself, you know where to find the answer, or you know a man or woman who might know the answer. If someone had asked me about mental welfare, I would have said that the Mental Welfare Commission for Scotland should be approached. After all, it is charged with a responsibility and a public duty. Accordingly, when I read the letter of 6 September from Dr Jim Dyer, the director of the Mental Welfare Commission for Scotland, I was appalled by the first paragraph: \"The commission has had to consider the above Bill very quickly, since its Director was invited to a briefing by civil servants on Friday 27 August. The commission was not consulted about the proposed Bill.\" That seems to me to compound the errors the Administration made over the previous months. It is now introducing legislation that it has failed to discuss properly with one of the principal organisations that should have been consulted. That may come back to haunt us. The difficulty is dealing with various amendments at this juncture. We are dealing with matters only for a limited period of time. The number of people involved is limited. I will refer to information provided to me by other organisations. The people we are discussing are referred to in a Home Office paper on England and Wales, \"Managing Dangerous People with Severe Personality Disorder\", which has just been issued. It estimates that there are about 300 to 600 such men. It suggests that if the numbers are in proportion there are about 30 to 60 in Scotland. The paper says:\"personality disorders are common. People with personality disorders fall on a continuum from near normal behaviour to extreme disruption in personal and social functioning. The overwhelming majority do not pose a risk to the public and live reasonably ordered, crime-free lives. The small proportion of such people who do pose a risk often suffer from the type of personality disorder that manifests in serious anti-social behaviour. It is a minority even of this sub group who pose a very high risk to society.\" In the bill, we are dealing with some people who remain in the state system in Carstairs who are not subject to a section 74 hospital order and who are not free on the public streets or free to be released from prison in due course. That is a small number of people so we must bear in mind two key factors. First, steps must be taken to deal with the issue of treatability. Secondly, we must deal with the issue of personality disorders. We will debate later whether the definition requires to be tighter. It seems insufficient to leave it as a matter of personality disorder. We must be tight in our definition and clear about what we are discussing, otherwise there is a danger that individuals will suffer injustice because they suffer from a personality disorder as a result of which they are no danger to other members of the public. That issue must be addressed.", "EditedTextHTML": "The tragedy with legislation that is introduced in haste is that things are left out. I was appalled by the letter from the Mental Welfare Commission for Scotland to the Deputy First Minister, dated 6 September. Twenty years of being a lawyer taught me that if you do not know the answer yourself, you know where to find the answer, or you know a man or woman who might know the answer. If someone had asked me about mental welfare, I would have said that the Mental Welfare Commission for Scotland should be approached. After all, it is charged with a responsibility and a public duty.
Accordingly, when I read the letter of 6 September from Dr Jim Dyer, the director of the

Mental Welfare Commission for Scotland, I was appalled by the first paragraph:

\"The commission has had to consider the above Bill very quickly, since its Director was invited to a briefing by civil servants on Friday 27 August. The commission was not consulted about the proposed Bill.\"

That seems to me to compound the errors the Administration made over the previous months. It is now introducing legislation that it has failed to discuss properly with one of the principal organisations that should have been consulted. That may come back to haunt us.

The difficulty is dealing with various amendments at this juncture. We are dealing with matters only for a limited period of time. The number of people involved is limited. I will refer to information provided to me by other organisations. The people we are discussing are referred to in a Home Office paper on England and Wales, \"Managing Dangerous People with Severe Personality Disorder\", which has just been issued. It estimates that there are about 300 to 600 such men. It suggests that if the numbers are in proportion there are about 30 to 60 in Scotland.

The paper says:

\"personality disorders are common. People with personality disorders fall on a continuum from near normal behaviour to extreme disruption in personal and social functioning. The overwhelming majority do not pose a risk to the public and live reasonably ordered, crime-free lives. The small proportion of such people who do pose a risk often suffer from the type of personality disorder that manifests in serious anti-social behaviour. It is a minority even of this sub group who pose a very high risk to society.\"

In the bill, we are dealing with some people who remain in the state system in Carstairs who are not subject to a section 74 hospital order and who are not free on the public streets or free to be released from prison in due course. That is a small number of people so we must bear in mind two key factors.

First, steps must be taken to deal with the issue of treatability. Secondly, we must deal with the issue of personality disorders. We will debate later whether the definition requires to be tighter. It seems insufficient to leave it as a matter of personality disorder. We must be tight in our definition and clear about what we are discussing, otherwise there is a danger that individuals will suffer injustice because they suffer from a personality disorder as a result of which they are no danger to other members of the public. That issue must be addressed.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C706741", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Jim Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 127.0, "ContributionID": 706741, "EditedText": "I will try to be brief. Mrs Grahame is right about balancing the interests and rights of detainees with the right of the public to safety. We have sought to achieve that balance in framing this bill. We recognise the rights of detainees, but we also recognise the rights of the public and our duty as a Parliament to secure public safety. That is why I gave an undertaking that the bill would comply with the European convention on human rights—which, independently, the Presiding Officer has also done. We are trying to strike the right balance between those rights. Richard Simpson mentioned the use of the term \"serious\". Serious harm is a well-known term and it is one that those practised in psychiatry are able to identify. In each case, it will be a matter for the evidence that is brought before the sheriff. Some of the evidence will come from those who have treated the patient. It may come from independent people—some of whom have been mentioned in the amendments. It may also come from police, security personnel and at Carstairs there may have been social work involvement in some cases. The sheriff will have to decide on the balance of all that evidence whether ministers have discharged the burden of proof on them that, on a balance of probabilities, to protect the public from serious harm, the appeal should not be granted. Mr Gallie asked, \"What kind of behaviour?\"Again, it depends on the circumstances of the case. He asked, for example, whether opportuning would be sufficiently alarming and damaging to be covered by serious harm. If it were of a dimension that could give rise to evidence that it was likely to cause serious harm, that would be the kind of evidence that would be placed before the sheriff, and the sheriff would have to make a determination on that basis. Much of the debate has hinged on the question of treatability. It should be remembered that in paragraph 10.6 of his judgment, the sheriff said that \"since the medical treatment that the applicant has received and is at present receiving has not alleviated or prevented and is not likely to alleviate or prevent a deterioration of his condition, he does not meet the ‘treatability test' and it is not appropriate for him to be liable to be detained in a hospital for medical treatment, nor to remain liable to be recalled to hospital for further treatment.\"", "EditedTextHTML": "I will try to be brief. Mrs Grahame is right about balancing the interests and rights of detainees with the right of the public to safety. We have sought to achieve that balance in framing this bill. We recognise the rights of detainees, but we also recognise the rights of the public and our duty as a Parliament to secure public safety. That is why I gave an undertaking that the bill would comply with the European convention on human rights—which, independently, the Presiding Officer has also done. We are trying to strike the right balance between those rights.

Richard Simpson mentioned the use of the term \"serious\". Serious harm is a well-known term and it is one that those practised in psychiatry are able to identify. In each case, it will be a matter for the evidence that is brought before the sheriff. Some of the evidence will come from those who have treated the patient. It may come from independent people—some of whom have been mentioned in the amendments. It may also come from police, security personnel and at Carstairs there may have been social work involvement in some cases. The sheriff will have to decide on the balance of all that evidence whether ministers have discharged the burden of proof on them that, on a balance of probabilities, to protect the public from serious harm, the appeal should not be granted.

Mr Gallie asked, \"What kind of behaviour?\"

Again, it depends on the circumstances of the case. He asked, for example, whether opportuning would be sufficiently alarming and damaging to be covered by serious harm. If it were of a dimension that could give rise to evidence that it was likely to cause serious harm, that would be the kind of evidence that would be placed before the sheriff, and the sheriff would have to make a determination on that basis.

Much of the debate has hinged on the question of treatability. It should be remembered that in paragraph 10.6 of his judgment, the sheriff said that

\"since the medical treatment that the applicant has received and is at present receiving has not alleviated or prevented and is not likely to alleviate or prevent a deterioration of his condition, he does not meet the ‘treatability test' and it is not appropriate for him to be liable to be detained in a hospital for medical treatment, nor to remain liable to be recalled to hospital for further treatment.\"

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1863E284P532C706742", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Cunningham, Roseanna", "ID": 1863, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Perth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Roseanna Cunningham", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Roseanna Cunningham: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 129.0, "ContributionID": 706742, "EditedText": "To help this part of the debate, will the minister consider setting aside the issue of Noel Ruddle? Is the minister saying that he can envisage no circumstances in which someone who was deemed to be untreatable by one institution might be treatable elsewhere?", "EditedTextHTML": "To help this part of the debate, will the minister consider setting aside the issue of Noel Ruddle? Is the minister saying that he can envisage no circumstances in which someone who was deemed to be untreatable by one institution might be treatable elsewhere?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706752", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 149.0, "ContributionID": 706752, "EditedText": "Amendment 1 disagreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment 1 disagreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C706749", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 143.0, "ContributionID": 706749, "EditedText": "Fine.", "EditedTextHTML": "Fine.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4359165+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706751", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 147.0, "ContributionID": 706751, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4359165+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706753", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Convener: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 150.0, "ContributionID": 706753, "EditedText": "It will be enormously helpful if those who lodged the other amendments—Dennis Canavan, David McLetchie and Roseanna Cunningham—will indicate as I reach their amendments whether they are moving them. If they are not moving them, it saves time. Mr Canavan, are you moving amendment 2?", "EditedTextHTML": "It will be enormously helpful if those who lodged the other amendments—Dennis Canavan, David McLetchie and Roseanna Cunningham—will indicate as I reach their amendments whether they are moving them. If they are not moving them, it saves time.

Mr Canavan, are you moving amendment 2?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4359165+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706765", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Convener: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 174.0, "ContributionID": 706765, "EditedText": "There will be a division.Members should vote yes to agree to the amendment, and no to disagree.", "EditedTextHTML": "There will be a division.

Members should vote yes to agree to the amendment, and no to disagree.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4359165+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706769", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Convener: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 180.0, "ContributionID": 706769, "EditedText": "Ms Cunningham, are you moving amendment 7?", "EditedTextHTML": "Ms Cunningham, are you moving amendment 7?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4359165+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706771", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Convener: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 184.0, "ContributionID": 706771, "EditedText": "The question is, that amendment 7 be agreed to. Are we all agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "The question is, that amendment 7 be agreed to. Are we all agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4359165+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706781", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Convener: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 202.0, "ContributionID": 706781, "EditedText": "Are you moving amendment 10, Mr McLetchie?", "EditedTextHTML": "Are you moving amendment 10, Mr McLetchie?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4359165+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706774", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 190.0, "ContributionID": 706774, "EditedText": "FOR Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)AGAINST Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)(LD)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)

AGAINST

Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)
(LD)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4359165+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C706778", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 196.0, "ContributionID": 706778, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4359165+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706779", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Convener: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 198.0, "ContributionID": 706779, "EditedText": "Are you moving amendment 9, Mr McLetchie?", "EditedTextHTML": "Are you moving amendment 9, Mr McLetchie?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4359165+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C706784", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 208.0, "ContributionID": 706784, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4359165+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C706786", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 212.0, "ContributionID": 706786, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4359165+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C706788", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 216.0, "ContributionID": 706788, "EditedText": "Would it save time if I said that I do not want to move any of my amendments? Laughter. We could then get on to the next debate.", "EditedTextHTML": "Would it save time if I said that I do not want to move any of my amendments? [Laughter.] We could then get on to the next debate.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4359165+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C706792", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 224.0, "ContributionID": 706792, "EditedText": "I would like to share Mr Canavan's popularity by not moving my amendments either. Laughter.", "EditedTextHTML": "I would like to share Mr Canavan's popularity by not moving my amendments either. [Laughter.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4359165+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C706794", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 228.0, "ContributionID": 706794, "EditedText": "I will not detain members for too long in moving this amendment. This probing amendment has serious implications. It refers to subsection 1(5), and to the inclusion of the date of 1 September 1999 as a starting point. I query that date. Our reason for suggesting a date of 2 September is that we agree in principle with what we believe the aim of the legislation to be. As such, this amendment would have no effect on the bill. Retrospection does not sit easily with the law. The bill itself was not approved for progression by Parliament until 2 September. I am concerned that the date of 1 September was set. Why was that date selected by the minister? What is the effect of that date and can it be challenged in the future? I move amendment 25.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will not detain members for too long in moving this amendment. This probing amendment has serious implications. It refers to subsection 1(5), and to the inclusion of the date of 1 September 1999 as a starting point.

I query that date. Our reason for suggesting a date of 2 September is that we agree in principle with what we believe the aim of the legislation to be. As such, this amendment would have no effect on the bill.

Retrospection does not sit easily with the law. The bill itself was not approved for progression by Parliament until 2 September. I am concerned that the date of 1 September was set. Why was that date selected by the minister? What is the effect of that date and can it be challenged in the future?

I move amendment 25.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4359165+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C706795", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Convener (Ms Patricia Ferguson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 230.0, "ContributionID": 706795, "EditedText": "Thank you, Mr Gallie.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you, Mr Gallie.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4359165+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C706796", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 232.0, "ContributionID": 706796, "EditedText": "I would like to speak briefly to amendment 31 in my name. It proposes to delete section 3(2) of the bill. Like Mr Gallie, I am concerned about the retrospective nature of this legislation. Any legislator in a democracy must be very wary indeed about retrospective legislation, and I am not alone in expressing that concern. I have received representations from the Law Society of Scotland. The society is concerned about the possibility of aspects of this legislation being retrospective. There should be no disjunction between the coming into force of sections 1 and 3 and section 2. That includes, for example, the application of the prior test, the definition of personality disorder and the appeal provisions. All provisions of the bill should come into force at the same time. Section 3(2), however, states:\"The amendment made by subsection (1) above has effect . . . as from 1 September 1999.\" That date has already passed. That part of the bill, under the bill's proposals, would therefore be retrospective. The European convention on human rights also has something to say about retrospective legislation. I reiterate what I said earlier about the fact that all the legislation passed by this Parliament must be consistent with the European convention on human rights. Under article 7, it says: \"No one shall be held guilty of any criminal offence on account of any act or omission which did not constitute a criminal offence under national or international law at the time when it was committed. Nor shall a heavier penalty be imposed than the one that was applicable at the time the criminal offence was committed.\" I can almost guess what the Deputy FirstMinister is going to say in his reply. He will say that, in debating this bill, we are considering civil law rather than criminal law. Unlike the minister, I am not a lawyer. It appears to me, however, that this is a hazy area that impinges on both criminal and civil law. As I said, the convention clearly prohibits the imposition of a heavier penalty than was applicable at the time that the criminal offence was committed. The question is whether detention in a state hospital is a penalty or enforced detention for treatment. In certain cases, detention in a state hospital is a consequence of being found guilty of a crime. In the case that gave rise to the introduction of the emergency legislation, I think that I am right in saying that Mr Ruddle was found guilty of a criminal offence. We must consider whether in legal terms his detention in Carstairs was a punishment, a penalty, or simply a compulsory form of detention for treatment. If this bill is passed as proposed, there appears to be an element of retrospection—or retrospectivity as the clerks have put it—that touches on both criminal law and civil law. Therefore, there might be conflict with the European convention on human rights. It would be better to delete section 3(2) and have all the legislation under the bill coming into force at one time, rather than certain aspects of it coming into force retrospectively.", "EditedTextHTML": "I would like to speak briefly to amendment 31 in my name. It proposes to delete section 3(2) of the bill.

Like Mr Gallie, I am concerned about the retrospective nature of this legislation. Any legislator in a democracy must be very wary indeed about retrospective legislation, and I am not alone in expressing that concern.

I have received representations from the Law Society of Scotland. The society is concerned about the possibility of aspects of this legislation being retrospective. There should be no disjunction between the coming into force of sections 1 and 3 and section 2. That includes, for example, the application of the prior test, the definition of personality disorder and the appeal provisions. All provisions of the bill should come into force at the same time.

Section 3(2), however, states:

\"The amendment made by subsection (1) above has effect . . . as from 1 September 1999.\"

That date has already passed. That part of the bill, under the bill's proposals, would therefore be retrospective.

The European convention on human rights also has something to say about retrospective legislation. I reiterate what I said earlier about the fact that all the legislation passed by this Parliament must be consistent with the European convention on human rights. Under article 7, it says:

\"No one shall be held guilty of any criminal offence on account of any act or omission which did not constitute a criminal offence under national or international law at the time when it was committed. Nor shall a heavier penalty be imposed than the one that was applicable at the time the criminal offence was committed.\"

I can almost guess what the Deputy First

Minister is going to say in his reply. He will say that, in debating this bill, we are considering civil law rather than criminal law. Unlike the minister, I am not a lawyer. It appears to me, however, that this is a hazy area that impinges on both criminal and civil law.

As I said, the convention clearly prohibits the imposition of a heavier penalty than was applicable at the time that the criminal offence was committed. The question is whether detention in a state hospital is a penalty or enforced detention for treatment. In certain cases, detention in a state hospital is a consequence of being found guilty of a crime. In the case that gave rise to the introduction of the emergency legislation, I think that I am right in saying that Mr Ruddle was found guilty of a criminal offence. We must consider whether in legal terms his detention in Carstairs was a punishment, a penalty, or simply a compulsory form of detention for treatment.

If this bill is passed as proposed, there appears to be an element of retrospection—or retrospectivity as the clerks have put it—that touches on both criminal law and civil law. Therefore, there might be conflict with the European convention on human rights. It would be better to delete section 3(2) and have all the legislation under the bill coming into force at one time, rather than certain aspects of it coming into force retrospectively.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4359165+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C706797", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Jim Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 234.0, "ContributionID": 706797, "EditedText": "The amendments both deal with the issue of the retrospective application of the provisions and I will deal with them together. Our objective, and the purpose underlying the bill as it stands, is to ensure that the hearing of any appeal to the sheriff by a restricted patient, subsequent to the Ruddle case, should be caught by the public safety test that is set out in the bill. That is why we have proceeded by way of emergency procedures in the Parliament. To ensure that every appeal hearing is brought within the scope of section 1 of the bill, section 1(5) provides that any appeals proceedings under section 64, 65 or 66 of the 1984 Act, in which a hearing takes place on or after 1 September, will be considered in the light of the new public safety test. In the same way, cases of patients considered for discharge by Scottish ministers on or after that date will also be subject to that new test. On Mr Gallie's point, 1 September is the date on which the bill was published. In other words, it is the date on which public notice of the detailed intentions was given. It is fair to say that a general indication had already been flagged up, but that was the date on which the bill was in the public domain. The amendment seeks to change the operative date. I accept it as a probing amendment, and I hope that Mr Gallie is satisfied that that is why that date was chosen. I am satisfied that it will catch the hearing of all appeals currently in train, and that there is no argument for letting the date slip by a day. I am also satisfied to address Mr Canavan's point on whether what we are doing is compatible with the requirements of the European convention on human rights. Mr Canavan's amendment seeks to delete section 3(2), which ensures that the meaning of mental disorder is clarified. There will be a section of amendments dealing with that issue later, Ms Ferguson. The effect of Mr Canavan's amendment would be that that definition section would not come into effect on 1 September. In short, section 3(2) is required to ensure consistency in the operation of the public safety provisions and the definition of mental disorder. Without section 3(2) there is the possibility of undermining the operation of the new public safety test, as there would be a disjuncture between that and the rest of the bill. Mr Canavan specifically referred to article 7 of the European convention on human rights. As he indicated, that article prevents the imposition of a heavier penalty than that applicable at the time of the relevant criminal offence. In the case of Mr Ruddle, he was guilty of culpable homicide. Patients who can appeal have been before a court of law, and detention under the 1984 Act—now to be amended—is for the purpose of treatment or for protection of the public, both of which will have to have been satisfied on the patient's admission with a restriction order or equivalent. The admission criteria in section 17 of the 1984 act have to be met, and the bill does not provide anything that could be categorised as a penalty under the European convention on human rights. There is, in fact, no general prohibition on retrospective legislation in the ECHR. We have considered this matter and I am confident that the measure that has been put forward complies with our obligations. As I have already indicated, the Presiding Officer had, on separate advice, equally to be satisfied. Mr Gallie asked whether the legislation could be challenged. It can, of course, but we are confident that we can successfully resist any such challenge.", "EditedTextHTML": "The amendments both deal with the issue of the retrospective application of the provisions and I will deal with them together. Our objective, and the purpose underlying the bill as it stands, is to ensure that the hearing of any appeal to the sheriff by a restricted patient, subsequent to the Ruddle case, should be caught by the public safety test that is set out in the bill.

That is why we have proceeded by way of emergency procedures in the Parliament. To ensure that every appeal hearing is brought within the scope of section 1 of the bill, section 1(5) provides that any appeals proceedings under section 64, 65 or 66 of the 1984 Act, in which a hearing takes place on or after 1 September, will be considered in the light of the new public safety test. In the same way, cases of patients considered for discharge by Scottish ministers on or after that date will also be subject to that new test.

On Mr Gallie's point, 1 September is the date on which the bill was published. In other words, it is the date on which public notice of the detailed intentions was given. It is fair to say that a general indication had already been flagged up, but that was the date on which the bill was in the public domain. The amendment seeks to change the operative date. I accept it as a probing amendment, and I hope that Mr Gallie is satisfied that that is why that date was chosen. I am satisfied that it will catch the hearing of all appeals currently in train, and that there is no argument for letting the date slip by a day.

I am also satisfied to address Mr Canavan's point on whether what we are doing is compatible with the requirements of the European convention on human rights. Mr Canavan's amendment seeks to delete section 3(2), which ensures that the meaning of mental disorder is clarified. There will be a section of amendments dealing with that issue later, Ms Ferguson.

The effect of Mr Canavan's amendment would be that that definition section would not come into effect on 1 September. In short, section 3(2) is required to ensure consistency in the operation of the public safety provisions and the definition of mental disorder. Without section 3(2) there is the possibility of undermining the operation of the new public safety test, as there would be a disjuncture between that and the rest of the bill.

Mr Canavan specifically referred to article 7 of the European convention on human rights. As he indicated, that article prevents the imposition of a heavier penalty than that applicable at the time of the relevant criminal offence. In the case of Mr Ruddle, he was guilty of culpable homicide. Patients who can appeal have been before a court of law, and detention under the 1984 Act—now to be amended—is for the purpose of treatment or for protection of the public, both of which will have to have been satisfied on the patient's admission with a restriction order or equivalent. The admission criteria in section 17 of the 1984 act have to be met, and the bill does not provide anything that could be categorised as a penalty under the European convention on human rights.

There is, in fact, no general prohibition on retrospective legislation in the ECHR. We have considered this matter and I am confident that the measure that has been put forward complies with our obligations. As I have already indicated, the Presiding Officer had, on separate advice, equally to be satisfied. Mr Gallie asked whether the legislation could be challenged. It can, of course, but we are confident that we can successfully resist any such challenge.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4359165+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C706800", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 240.0, "ContributionID": 706800, "EditedText": "But today is 8 September. Why does the bill have to stipulate 1 September? I could understand the minister's point if some appeals that were pending might result in the release of people who would constitute a danger to the public, but it seems from his reply that that is not the case. Why has this date of 1 September, a retrospective date, been picked? Supposing that the bill were passed by this Parliament today, the Queen could presumably signify her assent tomorrow. Why not, therefore, insert tomorrow's date?", "EditedTextHTML": "But today is 8 September. Why does the bill have to stipulate 1 September? I could understand the minister's point if some appeals that were pending might result in the release of people who would constitute a danger to the public, but it seems from his reply that that is not the case. Why has this date of 1 September, a retrospective date, been picked? Supposing that the bill were passed by this Parliament today, the Queen could presumably signify her assent tomorrow. Why not, therefore, insert tomorrow's date?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4359165+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C706801", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 242.0, "ContributionID": 706801, "EditedText": "As I have indicated, 1 September is the date when the bill was published. We were trying to be careful. While it was our expectation from our discussions with the Parliamentary Bureau that we could deal with stage 1 on 2 September and with stage 2 tomorrow—that was the initial suggestion—we could not take this Parliament for granted and assume that that timetable would be met. On the question of royal assent, as Mr Canavan knows, the Scotland Act 1998 allows a period of four weeks after the completion of stage 3 for the UK law officers and the Secretary of State for Scotland to consider whether the bill complies with the ECHR. I do not wish to prejudge that process, but we hope that it can be carried out much more quickly than that. However, the choice of 1 September 1999 was made on the basis that we could not take for granted some matters, including the period of time before royal assent.", "EditedTextHTML": "As I have indicated, 1 September is the date when the bill was published. We were trying to be careful. While it was our expectation from our discussions with the Parliamentary Bureau that we could deal with stage 1 on 2 September and with stage 2 tomorrow—that was the initial suggestion—we could not take this Parliament for granted and assume that that timetable would be met.

On the question of royal assent, as Mr Canavan knows, the Scotland Act 1998 allows a period of four weeks after the completion of stage 3 for the UK law officers and the Secretary of State for Scotland to consider whether the bill complies with the ECHR. I do not wish to prejudge that process, but we hope that it can be carried out much more quickly than that. However, the choice of 1 September 1999 was made on the basis that we could not take for granted some matters, including the period of time before royal assent.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4359165+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C706805", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 250.0, "ContributionID": 706805, "EditedText": "Nobody has requested it.", "EditedTextHTML": "Nobody has requested it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706806", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Convener: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 252.0, "ContributionID": 706806, "EditedText": "I have just checked with the clerk, and my understanding is that when no one agrees to a question that has been put we must move automatically to a division. There will, therefore, be a division.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have just checked with the clerk, and my understanding is that when no one agrees to a question that has been put we must move automatically to a division. There will, therefore, be a division.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C706807", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 254.0, "ContributionID": 706807, "EditedText": "On a point of order. It seems to me that a precedent was set in this chamber just 10 minutes or so ago, when no vote was taken on amendment 1. Because it is clear that we do not wish to pursue this amendment, it seems a waste of time to have a vote.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. It seems to me that a precedent was set in this chamber just 10 minutes or so ago, when no vote was taken on amendment 1. Because it is clear that we do not wish to pursue this amendment, it seems a waste of time to have a vote.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706809", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 259.0, "ContributionID": 706809, "EditedText": "Yes.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706810", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 261.0, "ContributionID": 706810, "EditedText": "Amendment 25 disagreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment 25 disagreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706814", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 267.0, "ContributionID": 706814, "EditedText": "Section 2APPEAL FROM DECISIONS ETC. OF SHERIFF UNDER SECTIONS 64, 65 AND 66 OF 1984 ACT", "EditedTextHTML": "Section 2

APPEAL FROM DECISIONS ETC. OF SHERIFF UNDER SECTIONS 64, 65 AND 66 OF 1984 ACT

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C706817", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 272.0, "ContributionID": 706817, "EditedText": "I will be fairly brief. Thisamendment, which has been drawn to our attention by the Law Society, expresses some concern over timetables. The amendment seeks to ensure that a fixed timetable will be applied to any appeal. It must surely be the view that appeals under section 2 are of such public importance that they should be dealt with promptly. The timetable that has been suggested seems to comply with that and to be fair. I ask the minister to take that on board.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will be fairly brief. This

amendment, which has been drawn to our attention by the Law Society, expresses some concern over timetables. The amendment seeks to ensure that a fixed timetable will be applied to any appeal. It must surely be the view that appeals under section 2 are of such public importance that they should be dealt with promptly. The timetable that has been suggested seems to comply with that and to be fair. I ask the minister to take that on board.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C706819", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Jim Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 276.0, "ContributionID": 706819, "EditedText": "Amendment 26, which was moved by Mr McLetchie, seeks to clarify that an appeal under section 66A of the bill may be on the grounds of fact or law. I can assure Mr McLetchie that that is the case—the appeal is not limited and can be taken on either ground. That means that the Court of Session would be able to consider the whole case. It is not envisaged that there would be a complete rehearing, but transcripts of the evidence, for example, would be made available to the court. In the circumstances surrounding that kind of appeal, the Court of Session cannot take a view on the credibility of witnesses, but it can examine the evidence and have regard to its sufficiency, as well as to points of law. Indeed, the court could come to a view that is different from that of the sheriff. The intention is that an appeal can be lodged on the grounds of both fact and law. On the question of the timetable under the bill, within which appeals to the Court of Session should be completed, I recognise the desire that such appeals be conducted with due speed. Mr Gallie referred to issues surrounding the fact that such cases will inevitably be of public importance and Ms Cunningham referred to issues surrounding questions of individual liberty. However, I do not believe that setting a rigid time scale is the answer. It is accepted that the issues raised by Mr Gallie and Ms Cunningham are important. Parties to an appeal involving a restricted patient will undoubtedly be anxious to have the appeal heard quickly. The Court of Session has to balance competing claims for the allocation of time to consider appeals, which, by their nature, require to be dealt with as quickly as possible; disputes involving children are often given some priority. New procedures have been introduced which provide that either party may enrol for an early disposal of the appeal. Those procedures would apply to appeals under the new act and I am assured that, in practice, they have been found to work satisfactorily. It seems preferable to apply the existing procedures, which allow for flexibility in disposing of such appeals, rather than trying to provide a fixed timetable. A fixed timetable may well be found to be unworkable for reasons outwith the control of the court or the parties involved. In some cases, such a timetable could inhibit early resolution of appeals. I am satisfied that the present arrangements are flexible enough to ensure that appeals can be dealt with without undue delay. I recognise the importance of doing so, and a specific power of the kind proposed in the amendment would not be required. I therefore invite the Parliament to reject amendment 26.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment 26, which was moved by Mr McLetchie, seeks to clarify that an appeal under section 66A of the bill may be on the grounds of fact or law. I can assure Mr McLetchie that that is the case—the appeal is not limited and can be taken on either ground. That means that the Court of Session would be able to consider the whole case. It is not envisaged that there would be a complete rehearing, but transcripts of the evidence, for example, would be made available to the court. In the circumstances surrounding that kind of appeal, the Court of Session cannot take a view on the credibility of witnesses, but it can examine the evidence and have regard to its sufficiency, as well as to points of law. Indeed, the court could come to a view that is different from that of the sheriff. The intention is that an appeal can be lodged on the grounds of both fact and law.

On the question of the timetable under the bill, within which appeals to the Court of Session should be completed, I recognise the desire that such appeals be conducted with due speed. Mr Gallie referred to issues surrounding the fact that such cases will inevitably be of public importance and Ms Cunningham referred to issues surrounding questions of individual liberty. However, I do not believe that setting a rigid time scale is the answer.

It is accepted that the issues raised by Mr Gallie and Ms Cunningham are important. Parties to an appeal involving a restricted patient will undoubtedly be anxious to have the appeal heard quickly. The Court of Session has to balance competing claims for the allocation of time to consider appeals, which, by their nature, require to be dealt with as quickly as possible; disputes involving children are often given some priority.

New procedures have been introduced which provide that either party may enrol for an early disposal of the appeal. Those procedures would apply to appeals under the new act and I am assured that, in practice, they have been found to work satisfactorily. It seems preferable to apply the existing procedures, which allow for flexibility in disposing of such appeals, rather than trying to provide a fixed timetable. A fixed timetable may well be found to be unworkable for reasons outwith the control of the court or the parties involved. In some cases, such a timetable could inhibit early resolution of appeals.

I am satisfied that the present arrangements are flexible enough to ensure that appeals can be dealt with without undue delay. I recognise the importance of doing so, and a specific power of the kind proposed in the amendment would not be required. I therefore invite the Parliament to reject amendment 26.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706820", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Convener: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 278.0, "ContributionID": 706820, "EditedText": "The question is, that amendment 26 be agreed to. Are we agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "The question is, that amendment 26 be agreed to. Are we agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1811E172P455C706836", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ullrich, Kay", "ID": 1811, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kay Ullrich", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Kay Ullrich: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 309.0, "ContributionID": 706836, "EditedText": "I am glad that Cathy Jamieson thinks that she knows better than the Mental Welfare Commission for Scotland. Let us not lose sight of the fact that the vast majority of people who have a personality disorder live what are by popular definition normal lives. They do not commit crimes and they do not pose a threat to public safety. Let us be precise in the group that we target. We are targeting the Ruddles of this world—those with a personality disorder that makes them seriously anti-social, violent and a danger to society. I therefore ask the committee to support amendment 28.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am glad that Cathy Jamieson thinks that she knows better than the Mental Welfare Commission for Scotland.

Let us not lose sight of the fact that the vast majority of people who have a personality disorder live what are by popular definition normal lives. They do not commit crimes and they do not pose a threat to public safety. Let us be precise in the group that we target. We are targeting the Ruddles of this world—those with a personality disorder that makes them seriously anti-social, violent and a danger to society.

I therefore ask the committee to support amendment 28.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1811E172P455C706834", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ullrich, Kay", "ID": 1811, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kay Ullrich", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Kay Ullrich: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 305.0, "ContributionID": 706834, "EditedText": "In proposing amendment 28, the Scottish National party is seeking to do two things: to clarify the definition of personality disorder, and to ensure that personality disorder is classified as a mental disorder as opposed to a mental illness. As drafted, the bill makes no distinction between people who exhibit dangerous, aggressive, anti-social behaviour, and people who are neither dangerous nor anti-social, but who may suffer from a non-aggressive personality disorder. Surely we cannot allow personality disorder to become a blanket term that covers a range of conditions, most of which would not normally attract the description of mental illness. Personality disorders are not uncommon. As Michael Matheson pointed out, it is fair to say that many members in the chamber today have a personality disorder of one kind or another. If one believes what has been written in some of the newspapers, our disorders range from having a somewhat suspect personality to being deemed to have had a complete personality bypass. If the description is not amended it will include people who may have an obsession with washing their hands and cleanliness, or those who suffer from agoraphobia or claustrophobia. We must realise the importance of ensuring that the definition does not become a catch-all, which could have serious implications that go far beyond closing the loophole that emerged as a result of the Ruddle case.", "EditedTextHTML": "In proposing amendment 28, the Scottish National party is seeking to do two things: to clarify the definition of personality disorder, and to ensure that personality disorder is classified as

a mental disorder as opposed to a mental illness. As drafted, the bill makes no distinction between people who exhibit dangerous, aggressive, anti-social behaviour, and people who are neither dangerous nor anti-social, but who may suffer from a non-aggressive personality disorder. Surely we cannot allow personality disorder to become a blanket term that covers a range of conditions, most of which would not normally attract the description of mental illness.

Personality disorders are not uncommon. As Michael Matheson pointed out, it is fair to say that many members in the chamber today have a personality disorder of one kind or another. If one believes what has been written in some of the newspapers, our disorders range from having a somewhat suspect personality to being deemed to have had a complete personality bypass.

If the description is not amended it will include people who may have an obsession with washing their hands and cleanliness, or those who suffer from agoraphobia or claustrophobia.

We must realise the importance of ensuring that the definition does not become a catch-all, which could have serious implications that go far beyond closing the loophole that emerged as a result of the Ruddle case.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1863E284P532C706842", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Cunningham, Roseanna", "ID": 1863, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Perth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Roseanna Cunningham", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Roseanna Cunningham rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 323.0, "ContributionID": 706842, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706848", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Convener: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 334.0, "ContributionID": 706848, "EditedText": "The question is, that amendment 38 be agreed to. Amendment 38 agreed to. The Convener: Mr Matheson moved amendment 28 earlier. The question is, that amendment 28 be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "The question is, that amendment 38 be agreed to. Amendment 38 agreed to. The Convener: Mr Matheson moved amendment 28 earlier. The question is, that amendment 28 be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C706857", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 350.0, "ContributionID": 706857, "EditedText": "I move amendment 30.", "EditedTextHTML": "I move amendment 30.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706851", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 340.0, "ContributionID": 706851, "EditedText": "FOR Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)AGAINST Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)(LD)Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)ABSTENTIONS Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)

AGAINST

Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)
(LD)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)

ABSTENTIONS

Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)

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" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706866", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Convener: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 365.0, "ContributionID": 706866, "EditedText": "The result of the division is as follows: For 2, Against 79, Abstentions 25.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result of the division is as follows: For 2, Against 79, Abstentions 25.

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" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706873", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 377.0, "ContributionID": 706873, "EditedText": "Section 3, as amended, agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Section 3, as amended, agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706875", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Convener: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 380.0, "ContributionID": 706875, "EditedText": "I call Mr David McLetchie to move amendment 32.", "EditedTextHTML": "I call Mr David McLetchie to move amendment 32.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706878", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Convener: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 386.0, "ContributionID": 706878, "EditedText": "We shall proceed to a decision on amendment 32. Mr McLetchie, do you wish to press your amendment?", "EditedTextHTML": "We shall proceed to a decision on amendment 32. Mr McLetchie, do you wish to press your amendment?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706880", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 390.0, "ContributionID": 706880, "EditedText": "Amendment 32, by leave, withdrawn.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment 32, by leave, withdrawn.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706881", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Convener: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 391.0, "ContributionID": 706881, "EditedText": "We now move on to amendment 33, with which we shall debate amendments 34 to 36.", "EditedTextHTML": "We now move on to amendment 33, with which we shall debate amendments 34 to 36.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1863E284P532C706884", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Cunningham, Roseanna", "ID": 1863, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Perth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Roseanna Cunningham", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Roseanna Cunningham: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 397.0, "ContributionID": 706884, "EditedText": "I rise to speak to amendment 34, which I think is straightforward. It deals with the disjunction involved in bringing in parts of the act. I raised this issue last Thursday, and listened carefully to the reply of the Deputy Minister for Community Care. He referred to the disjunction being necessary to allow the Court of Session procedures to be put in place. While that might be an argument for delay, it is not an argument for disjunction. If this Parliament can move speedily—and, after all, we could have moved and dealt with this emergency legislation in one day—we should also demand that the Court of Session move immediately. That is why the amendment is being proposed. I hope that the minister accepts that it is not unreasonable to demand of the Court of Session what we demand of ourselves.", "EditedTextHTML": "I rise to speak to amendment 34, which I think is straightforward. It deals with the disjunction involved in bringing in parts of the act. I raised this issue last Thursday, and listened carefully to the reply of the Deputy Minister for Community Care. He referred to the disjunction being necessary to allow the Court of Session procedures to be put in place. While that might be an argument for delay, it is not an argument for disjunction. If this Parliament can move speedily—and, after all, we could have moved and dealt with this emergency legislation in one day—we should also demand that the Court of Session move immediately. That is why the amendment is being proposed. I hope that the minister accepts that it is not unreasonable to demand of the Court of Session what we demand of ourselves.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706888", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Convener: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 404.0, "ContributionID": 706888, "EditedText": "Are you moving amendment 34, Mr McLetchie?", "EditedTextHTML": "Are you moving amendment 34, Mr McLetchie?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706890", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Convener: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 408.0, "ContributionID": 706890, "EditedText": "The question is, that amendment 34 be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "The question is, that amendment 34 be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706892", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Convener: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 411.0, "ContributionID": 706892, "EditedText": "Are you moving amendment 35, Mr Canavan?", "EditedTextHTML": "Are you moving amendment 35, Mr Canavan?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706898", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 421.0, "ContributionID": 706898, "EditedText": "Meeting closed at 17:30.", "EditedTextHTML": "Meeting closed at 17:30.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706899", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26760, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 422.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 422.0, "ID": 26760, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 423.0, "ContributionID": 706899, "EditedText": "THE PRESIDING OFFICER opened the meeting at 17:30", "EditedTextHTML": "[THE PRESIDING OFFICER opened the meeting at 17:30]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C706904", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26761, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 424.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 424.0, "ID": 26761, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 434.0, "ContributionID": 706904, "EditedText": "I move,That the Parliament agrees that the Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill, as amended, be passed.", "EditedTextHTML": "I move,

That the Parliament agrees that the Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill, as amended, be passed.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706911", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26761, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 424.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 424.0, "ID": 26761, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 450.0, "ContributionID": 706911, "EditedText": "As there is no decision time, that brings us to the end of the meeting. On behalf of Patricia Ferguson and myself, I would like to thank members warmly for their co-operation. We have had a most workmanlike session and the Scottish Parliament has just passed its first bill.", "EditedTextHTML": "As there is no decision time, that brings us to the end of the meeting. On behalf of Patricia Ferguson and myself, I would like to thank members warmly for their co-operation. We have had a most workmanlike session and the Scottish Parliament has just passed its first bill.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706912", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26761, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 424.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 424.0, "ID": 26761, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 452.0, "ContributionID": 706912, "EditedText": "Meeting closed at 17:40.", "EditedTextHTML": "Meeting closed at 17:40.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1863E284P532C706906", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26761, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 424.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 424.0, "ID": 26761, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Cunningham, Roseanna", "ID": 1863, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Perth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Roseanna Cunningham", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Roseanna Cunningham (Perth) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 439.0, "ContributionID": 706906, "EditedText": "This has been an arduous, although not very long, procedure. I hope that we will not have to do this too often. It needs to be said again that it is a matter of regret that we found ourselves in this position. The tone of the letters on the legislation that we have received from the Mental Welfare Commission for Scotland, and from Bruce Millan, is also a matter for regret. It is obvious that they are grievously concerned about aspects of the legislation. Notwithstanding their concerns, we all feel that we must push ahead. We are not here as lawyers or medical professionals. Although we may take the advice of such people, we are here to express our concerns about public safety—that has been paramount. The concern that we on the SNP seats—I was going to say benches—have had throughout these proceedings has focused principally on compliance with the European convention on human rights. We have been assured, both earlier and again today, that compliance has been achieved. I would have wished to receive greater specification, but I accept the assurances that have been given. I serve notice that we will hold the minister to all the assurances that have been given in all the debates, both last Thursday and this afternoon. Nevertheless, we accept those assurances in the spirit in which I sincerely hope they were given. None of us can be happy about the procedure being forced through. In the interests of public safety, however, it has been necessary to legislate. We can only hope and pray that the assurances that have been made throughout the debates, last Thursday and today, will be adhered to, and that none of what we now pass into legislation will come back to haunt us.", "EditedTextHTML": "This has been an arduous, although not very long, procedure. I hope that we will not have to do this too often.

It needs to be said again that it is a matter of regret that we found ourselves in this position. The tone of the letters on the legislation that we have received from the Mental Welfare Commission for Scotland, and from Bruce Millan, is also a matter for regret. It is obvious that they are grievously concerned about aspects of the legislation. Notwithstanding their concerns, we all feel that we must push ahead.

We are not here as lawyers or medical professionals. Although we may take the advice of such people, we are here to express our concerns about public safety—that has been paramount. The concern that we on the SNP seats—I was going to say benches—have had throughout these proceedings has focused principally on compliance with the European convention on human rights. We have been assured, both earlier and again today, that compliance has been achieved. I would have wished to receive greater specification, but I accept the assurances that have been given. I serve notice that we will hold the minister to all the assurances that have been given in all the debates, both last Thursday and this afternoon. Nevertheless, we accept those assurances in the spirit in which I sincerely hope they were given.

None of us can be happy about the procedure being forced through. In the interests of public safety, however, it has been necessary to legislate. We can only hope and pray that the assurances that have been made throughout the debates, last Thursday and today, will be adhered to, and that none of what we now pass into legislation will come back to haunt us.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C706908", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26761, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 424.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 424.0, "ID": 26761, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan (Falkirk West): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 445.0, "ContributionID": 706908, "EditedText": "I want to place on record the fact that \"it is a matter of great regret to us that a complex and difficult area is being dealt with by emergency legislation, in a timescale which has made it impossible for us to consider the terms of the Bill with the care that it requires.\" Those are Bruce Millan's words, not mine, but I agree with them entirely. I am only sorry that the Scottish Executive has not shown more respect for Bruce Millan, who is chairing the important committee that is reviewing the Mental Health (Scotland) Act 1984. I take some consolation, however, from the minister's having reiterated his commitment to ensuring that this legislation will be reviewed and that Parliament will have the opportunity to review the legislation in the light of the findings of the MacLean and Millan committees. I look forward to being able to give those important reports the consideration that they deserve. What will eventually emerge from the Parliament will not be hastily passed legislation such as this, but something that will ensure public safety, as well as ensuring the rights of people in Scotland who suffer from mental illness, only a small minority of whom pose a danger to the public.", "EditedTextHTML": "I want to place on record the fact that

\"it is a matter of great regret to us that a complex and difficult area is being dealt with by emergency legislation, in a timescale which has made it impossible for us to consider the terms of the Bill with the care that it requires.\"

Those are Bruce Millan's words, not mine, but I agree with them entirely. I am only sorry that the Scottish Executive has not shown more respect for Bruce Millan, who is chairing the important committee that is reviewing the Mental Health (Scotland) Act 1984.

I take some consolation, however, from the minister's having reiterated his commitment to ensuring that this legislation will be reviewed and that Parliament will have the opportunity to review the legislation in the light of the findings of the MacLean and Millan committees. I look forward to being able to give those important reports the consideration that they deserve.

What will eventually emerge from the Parliament will not be hastily passed legislation such as this, but something that will ensure public safety, as well as ensuring the rights of people in Scotland who suffer from mental illness, only a small minority of whom pose a danger to the public.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706909", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26761, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 424.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 424.0, "ID": 26761, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 447.0, "ContributionID": 706909, "EditedText": "The minister is not seeking to wind up, so I put the question, that motion S1M-121 be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "The minister is not seeking to wind up, so I put the question, that motion S1M-121 be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C706677", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Wednesday 8 September 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26756, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26756, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie (Lothians) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 5.0, "ContributionID": 706677, "EditedText": "I am happy to accept that, but I wish to raise a point of order that relates to your conduct as Presiding Officer of the Parliament. As you are aware, I have given you prior notice to that effect. My point concerns the complaint that you made on behalf of the Parliament to the Press Complaints Commission, in relation to the coverage of the proceedings of the Parliament in the Daily Record. The fact that you took that action on our behalf came to light in your speech on Monday to the Church and Nation committee of the Church of Scotland. You circulated copies of the speech to members of the Parliament, the text of which makes it clear that your referral was made not in a personal capacity but on behalf of the Parliament. As you will appreciate, Presiding Officer, complaints about coverage in the Daily Record come as second nature to the Scottish Conservatives, as we have been on the receiving end for years. However, irrespective of the merits of your complaint, there is an important point of principle. Where is your authority to submit such a complaint, given that, to the best of my knowledge, you did not seek the approval of the Parliament, the corporate body or the Parliamentary Bureau for the course of action that you have followed? In the words of the relevant section, have \"proper procedures\" been followed in relation to this aspect of the business of the Parliament? Secondly, having initiated this complaint without consultation or approval, which procedures do you now intend to follow in relation to the progress of the complaint? Will you publish the text of your letter to the Press Complaints Commission? What guidance do you intend to take from the Parliament in relation to the reply that you eventually receive, and any further correspondence or proceedings that may follow?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am happy to accept that, but I wish to raise a point of order that relates to your conduct as Presiding Officer of the Parliament. As you are aware, I have given you prior notice to that effect. My point concerns the complaint that you made on behalf of the Parliament to the Press Complaints Commission, in relation to the coverage of the proceedings of the Parliament in the Daily Record. The fact that you took that action on our behalf came to light in your speech on Monday to the Church and Nation committee of the Church of Scotland. You circulated copies of the speech to members of the Parliament, the text of which makes it clear that your referral was made not in a personal capacity but on behalf of the Parliament.

As you will appreciate, Presiding Officer, complaints about coverage in the Daily Record come as second nature to the Scottish Conservatives, as we have been on the receiving end for years. However, irrespective of the merits of your complaint, there is an important point of principle. Where is your authority to submit such a complaint, given that, to the best of my knowledge, you did not seek the approval of the Parliament, the corporate body or the Parliamentary Bureau for the course of action that you have followed? In the words of the relevant section, have \"proper procedures\" been followed in relation to this aspect of the business of the Parliament?

Secondly, having initiated this complaint without consultation or approval, which procedures do you now intend to follow in relation to the progress of the complaint? Will you publish the text of your letter to the Press Complaints Commission? What guidance do you intend to take from the Parliament in relation to the reply that you eventually receive, and any further correspondence or proceedings that may follow?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706678", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Wednesday 8 September 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26756, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26756, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 7.0, "ContributionID": 706678, "EditedText": "First, thank you for your courtesy in giving me notice of your point of order—that is an important precedent. Secondly, if your point had not involved me, I would have ruled that it was not a point of order, as it does not relate to proceedings in the chamber. The substantive answer is that I will write to you and, with your agreement, I will release the text of my reply on electronic mail so that every member has access to it tomorrow.", "EditedTextHTML": "First, thank you for your courtesy in giving me notice of your point of order—that is an important precedent. Secondly, if your point had not involved me, I would have ruled that it was not a point of order, as it does not relate to proceedings in the chamber. The substantive answer is that I will write to you and, with your agreement, I will release the text of my reply on electronic mail so that every member has access to it tomorrow.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706679", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26757, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26757, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 10.0, "ContributionID": 706679, "EditedText": "We now proceed to the first item of business this afternoon, which is motion S1M-118, in the name of Mr Jack McConnell, on a financial resolution for the Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill. The motion will be taken without debate. Before I call Mr McConnell to move the motion, I remind members that, after he does, we will move immediately to a decision. Looking ahead, I inform members that there are likely to be a number of decisions during the debate on stage 2 of the Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill, and I intend to explain the procedure that is to be followed immediately before the start of that debate.", "EditedTextHTML": "We now proceed to the first item of business this afternoon, which is motion S1M-118, in the name of Mr Jack McConnell, on a financial resolution for the Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill. The motion will be taken without debate. Before I call Mr McConnell to move the motion, I remind members that, after he does, we will move immediately to a decision. Looking ahead, I inform members that there are likely to be a number of decisions during the debate on stage 2 of the Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill, and I intend to explain the procedure that is to be followed immediately before the start of that debate.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706690", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26757, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26757, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 23.0, "ContributionID": 706690, "EditedText": "Section 3 - 2 hours 30 minutes", "EditedTextHTML": "Section 3 - 2 hours 30 minutes

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706691", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26757, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26757, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 24.0, "ContributionID": 706691, "EditedText": "Proposed new section – \"Meaning of medical treatment\" 2 hours 40 minutes", "EditedTextHTML": "Proposed new section – \"Meaning of medical treatment\" 2 hours 40 minutes

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706692", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26757, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26757, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 25.0, "ContributionID": 706692, "EditedText": "Remaining Stage 2 proceedings - 2 hours 50 minutes", "EditedTextHTML": "Remaining Stage 2 proceedings - 2 hours 50 minutes

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706694", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26757, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26757, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 27.0, "ContributionID": 706694, "EditedText": "All of Stage 3 - 3 hours 20 minutes—Mr McCabe.", "EditedTextHTML": "All of Stage 3 - 3 hours 20 minutes—[Mr McCabe.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706697", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26757, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26757, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 31.0, "ContributionID": 706697, "EditedText": "Meeting closed at 14:34.", "EditedTextHTML": "Meeting closed at 14:34.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706699", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Convener (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 35.0, "ContributionID": 706699, "EditedText": "We move to consider stage 2 of the bill in the Committee of the Whole Parliament. As the bill procedure is new to us all, I want to explain how we will proceed. The debate on stage 2 is programmed to last for two hours 50 minutes in total. I remind members that electronic voting will be used for any divisions and that the voting time will be 30 seconds. Copies of the marshalled list of amendments to be considered were delivered to members with their copies of the business bulletin. They are also available now from the clerks at the back of the chamber. As well as the 36 amendments lodged on Monday and printed in yesterday's bulletin, the marshalled list includes three amendments lodged by the Minister for Justice, Mr Wallace, after the normal deadline. I took the view that the merits of those amendments outweighed the disadvantages of lack of notice, and so intend to exercise my power under standing order 9.10.6 to allow them to be moved. These manuscript amendments, together with another amendment that has been changed slightly, are indicated by asterisks on the marshalled list. Copies of the grouping list have been placed on members' desks. Amendments have been grouped to allow a single debate to take place on related amendments. That should avoid undue repetition and allow the committee to concentrate on the important issues. Nevertheless, I remind members that all the amendments must be called in turn from the marshalled list and will be disposed of in that order. Whoever is chairing will be strict in ensuring that the committee observes that rule. In particular, we shall not permit the committee to move backwards in the list. There will, therefore, be one debate on each of the six groups of amendments set out in the marshalled list. We will call first the proposer of the first amendment in the group, who should end his or her speech by moving the amendment. We will then call other speakers, including—if time permits—the proposers of all amendments in the group. Other speakers should not move their amendments at that stage. The minister will be called to speak on each group. At the end of the debate on each group, we will put the question on the first amendment in the group and the committee shall decide whether to agree to the amendment. We will then call the next amendment on the marshalled list. The member who has proposed it will have the opportunity to move it, but should not make a speech. There will be no further debate and we will immediately put the question. To assist members in interpreting the groupings, the grouping list indicates sub-groups of amendments that either stand or fall together, or are clear alternatives. For example, group 1 on the list has amendments 1 and 10 as the first subgroup. Those amendments propose the same adjustment to two different subsections, and they stand or fall together. In the second sub-group, amendments 2 and 11 propose alternative amendments to the same subsection: they are clear alternatives and cannot both be accepted. In relation to such amendments, I expect the committee to respect the decision that is taken on the amendment that is disposed of first. For example, amendments 1 and 10 make exactly comparable changes in two places in the bill. If amendment 1 is agreed to, I expect the committee to agree without dissent to amendment 10 when it is reached. If amendment 1 is disagreed to, I expect amendment 10 not to be moved. Some amendments pre-empt others. For example, if amendment 11 is accepted, that preempts amendment 12, which seeks to delete a word that would no longer be part of the bill if amendment 11 were to be agreed to. Finally, I remind members that, as well as disposing of amendments, the committee is required to decide whether to agree to each section of the bill. I will put the question on each section when it is reached. The only way in which it is permitted to oppose agreement to a section is by lodging an amendment to leave out the section. No such amendments have been lodged so far and, given the time limits within which we are working, I do not propose to allow any last-minute manuscript amendments to leave out sections to be taken. We are operating the committee system with the electronics for the first time, and I ask members to press the button to speak only on the group that is under discussion. The screens will be cleared at the end of each group. We in the chair will not be setting any time limit on speeches, because at a committee stage, by definition, all speeches should be short and there should be free interchange. I am sure that all that I have said has been clearly understood, but in case it has not, copies of this guidance will now be circulated by the attendants, so that members can have it by their side. We have already agreed a strict timetable for this afternoon's debate, and the clock starts ticking once I invite the first member to move the first amendment. If anyone has any questions about this long complicated procedure, they should ask them now, before the debate begins. There are no questions; I am delighted that everyone has understood the procedure clearly. We now begin the debate in committee on stage 2 of the bill. I call Mr David McLetchie to move amendment 1, with which we will take amendments 2 to 9.", "EditedTextHTML": "We move to consider stage 2 of the bill in the Committee of the Whole Parliament. As the bill procedure is new to us all, I want to explain how we will proceed.

The debate on stage 2 is programmed to last for two hours 50 minutes in total. I remind members that electronic voting will be used for any divisions and that the voting time will be 30 seconds.

Copies of the marshalled list of amendments to be considered were delivered to members with their copies of the business bulletin. They are also available now from the clerks at the back of the chamber. As well as the 36 amendments lodged on Monday and printed in yesterday's bulletin, the marshalled list includes three amendments lodged by the Minister for Justice, Mr Wallace, after the normal deadline. I took the view that the merits of those amendments outweighed the disadvantages of lack of notice, and so intend to exercise my power under standing order 9.10.6 to allow them to be moved. These manuscript amendments, together with another amendment that has been changed slightly, are indicated by asterisks on the marshalled list.

Copies of the grouping list have been placed on members' desks. Amendments have been grouped to allow a single debate to take place on related amendments. That should avoid undue repetition and allow the committee to concentrate on the important issues. Nevertheless, I remind members that all the amendments must be called in turn from the marshalled list and will be disposed of in that order. Whoever is chairing will be strict in ensuring that the committee observes that rule. In particular, we shall not permit the committee to move backwards in the list.

There will, therefore, be one debate on each of the six groups of amendments set out in the marshalled list. We will call first the proposer of the first amendment in the group, who should end his or her speech by moving the amendment. We will then call other speakers, including—if time permits—the proposers of all amendments in the group. Other speakers should not move their amendments at that stage. The minister will be called to speak on each group.

At the end of the debate on each group, we will put the question on the first amendment in the group and the committee shall decide whether to agree to the amendment. We will then call the next amendment on the marshalled list. The member who has proposed it will have the opportunity to move it, but should not make a speech. There will be no further debate and we will immediately put the question.

To assist members in interpreting the groupings, the grouping list indicates sub-groups of amendments that either stand or fall together, or are clear alternatives. For example, group 1 on the list has amendments 1 and 10 as the first subgroup. Those amendments propose the same adjustment to two different subsections, and they stand or fall together. In the second sub-group, amendments 2 and 11 propose alternative amendments to the same subsection: they are clear alternatives and cannot both be accepted.

In relation to such amendments, I expect the committee to respect the decision that is taken on the amendment that is disposed of first. For example, amendments 1 and 10 make exactly comparable changes in two places in the bill. If amendment 1 is agreed to, I expect the committee to agree without dissent to amendment 10 when it is reached. If amendment 1 is disagreed to, I expect amendment 10 not to be moved.

Some amendments pre-empt others. For example, if amendment 11 is accepted, that preempts amendment 12, which seeks to delete a word that would no longer be part of the bill if amendment 11 were to be agreed to.

Finally, I remind members that, as well as disposing of amendments, the committee is required to decide whether to agree to each section of the bill. I will put the question on each section when it is reached. The only way in which it is permitted to oppose agreement to a section is by lodging an amendment to leave out the section. No such amendments have been lodged so far and, given the time limits within which we are working, I do not propose to allow any last-minute manuscript amendments to leave out sections to be taken.

We are operating the committee system with the electronics for the first time, and I ask members to press the button to speak only on the group that is under discussion. The screens will be cleared at the end of each group. We in the chair will not be setting any time limit on speeches, because at a committee stage, by definition, all speeches should be short and there should be free interchange.

I am sure that all that I have said has been clearly understood, but in case it has not, copies of this guidance will now be circulated by the attendants, so that members can have it by their side. We have already agreed a strict timetable for this afternoon's debate, and the clock starts ticking once I invite the first member to move the first

amendment. If anyone has any questions about this long complicated procedure, they should ask them now, before the debate begins.

There are no questions; I am delighted that everyone has understood the procedure clearly. We now begin the debate in committee on stage 2 of the bill. I call Mr David McLetchie to move amendment 1, with which we will take amendments 2 to 9.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C706702", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan (Falkirk West): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 40.0, "ContributionID": 706702, "EditedText": "I wish to speak briefly to the amendments that are on the marshalled list in my name. Amendments 2, 11, 17 and 21 are very similarly worded; they propose to replace the words \"protect the public from serious harm\"in various parts of the bill with\"to prevent the patient constituting a danger to himself or to the public\". Will the minister tell us whether there is any precedent in mental health legislation—or in any other legislation—for the use of the words \"protecting the public from serious harm\"?What is meant by serious harm? Does it mean presenting a danger, or potential danger, to members of the public? If that is the intention of the terminology, I respectfully suggest that the terminology in my amendment is better. I refer briefly to a letter that was handed to me shortly before the start of the debate. The letter is from Bruce Millan to Jim Wallace, the Minister for Justice and Deputy First Minister; Bruce Millan is writing in his capacity as chairman of the review committee of the Mental Health (Scotland) Act 1984. Along with other members, I have known Bruce Millan, the former Secretary of State for Scotland, for many years. There is a great deal of respect for him throughout the country, so members should listen carefully to what he has to say. In some respects he might have been able to write the speech that I gave last week in which I criticised the way in which this legislation—on a complex matter—was being dealt with in a rush, without the serious consideration that it requires.", "EditedTextHTML": "I wish to speak briefly to the amendments that are on the marshalled list in my name.

Amendments 2, 11, 17 and 21 are very similarly worded; they propose to replace the words

\"protect the public from serious harm\"

in various parts of the bill with

\"to prevent the patient constituting a danger to himself or to the public\".
Will the minister tell us whether there is any precedent in mental health legislation—or in any other legislation—for the use of the words

\"protecting the public from serious harm\"?

What is meant by serious harm? Does it mean presenting a danger, or potential danger, to members of the public? If that is the intention of the terminology, I respectfully suggest that the terminology in my amendment is better.

I refer briefly to a letter that was handed to me shortly before the start of the debate. The letter is from Bruce Millan to Jim Wallace, the Minister for Justice and Deputy First Minister; Bruce Millan is writing in his capacity as chairman of the review committee of the Mental Health (Scotland) Act 1984.

Along with other members, I have known Bruce Millan, the former Secretary of State for Scotland, for many years. There is a great deal of respect for him throughout the country, so members should listen carefully to what he has to say. In some respects he might have been able to write the speech that I gave last week in which I criticised the way in which this legislation—on a complex matter—was being dealt with in a rush, without the serious consideration that it requires.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C706706", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 50.0, "ContributionID": 706706, "EditedText": "I move amendment 2.", "EditedTextHTML": "I move amendment 2.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706707", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Convener: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 52.0, "ContributionID": 706707, "EditedText": "Before I call Mr Gallie to speak to amendment 3, I would say that you were in danger of straying out of order, Dennis. I allowed it, because it is important that the correspondence which the Minister for Justice has released in a written answer should be known, but I would not want members to go beyond the strict terms of the amendments that we are debating.", "EditedTextHTML": "Before I call Mr Gallie to speak to amendment 3, I would say that you were in danger of straying out of order, Dennis. I allowed

it, because it is important that the correspondence which the Minister for Justice has released in a written answer should be known, but I would not want members to go beyond the strict terms of the amendments that we are debating.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1863E284P532C706714", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Cunningham, Roseanna", "ID": 1863, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Perth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Roseanna Cunningham", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Roseanna Cunningham: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 68.0, "ContributionID": 706714, "EditedText": "Does not the minister consider that, if the bill is not more explicit, precisely the same set of circumstances that led to Ruddle's release might recur? If we put something specific in the bill along the lines that I suggested, we will ensure that such a recurrence is, if not impossible, at least guarded against. Currently, there is no safeguard.", "EditedTextHTML": "Does not the minister consider that, if the bill is not more explicit, precisely the same set of circumstances that led to Ruddle's release might recur? If we put something specific in the bill along the lines that I suggested, we will ensure that such a recurrence is, if not impossible, at least guarded against. Currently, there is no safeguard.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C706708", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 54.0, "ContributionID": 706708, "EditedText": "Amendment 3 follows in part the amendments lodged by Mr Canavan, but it is slightly different. I would like the word \"serious\" to be removed from the definition of serious harm because I feel that confusion could arise in the minds of the public, if not in that of the sheriff. What does it mean when we use \"serious\" as an adjective for \"harm\"? Does it cover physical or psychological harm, or does it cover harm as far as individuals' property interests are concerned? Does the bill consider that sexual interference is serious—or that physical violence that results in the hospitalisation of an individual is not so serious? I would appreciate it if the minister would clarify the intent behind the use of the word \"serious\". Amendment 8 refers to the burden of proof on Scottish ministers in judging the public risk if an individual were to be released or allowed to leave the institution. Who will the ministers take advice from? Is it intended that they should have medical back-up? If so, would that medical expertise come from within the hospital? If it comes from within the hospital, will the familiarity with the individual perhaps mean that some aspects of that individual's suitability are missed? Should there be an independent element to the medical advice offered to the ministers? Will the ministers seek guidance from the police and from others about the public risk? Will they have regard to what has happened in the past, to the reasons why that individual was taken into the institution and to that individual's criminal track record? Those questions must be answered; again, I seek clarification from the minister. Amendment 9 is a probing amendment. It seeks to remove proposed subsection (C1) in section 1, which states: \"Nothing in section 102 (State Hospitals) of the National Health Service (Scotland) Act 1978 prevents or restricts the detention of a patient\". I am sure that a range of acts and sections do not affect that action, so why did the minister feel it necessary to insert subsection (C1) in the bill?", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment 3 follows in part the amendments lodged by Mr Canavan, but it is slightly different. I would like the word \"serious\" to be removed from the definition of serious harm because I feel that confusion could arise in the minds of the public, if not in that of the sheriff. What does it mean when we use \"serious\" as an adjective for \"harm\"? Does it cover physical or psychological harm, or does it cover harm as far as individuals' property interests are concerned? Does the bill consider that sexual interference is serious—or that physical violence that results in the hospitalisation of an individual is not so serious? I would appreciate it if the minister would clarify the intent behind the use of the word \"serious\".

Amendment 8 refers to the burden of proof on Scottish ministers in judging the public risk if an individual were to be released or allowed to leave the institution. Who will the ministers take advice from? Is it intended that they should have medical back-up? If so, would that medical expertise come from within the hospital? If it comes from within the hospital, will the familiarity with the individual perhaps mean that some aspects of that individual's suitability are missed? Should there be an independent element to the medical advice offered to the ministers? Will the ministers seek guidance from the police and from others about the public risk? Will they have regard to what has happened in the past, to the reasons why that individual was taken into the institution and to that individual's criminal track record? Those questions must be answered; again, I seek clarification from the minister.

Amendment 9 is a probing amendment. It seeks to remove proposed subsection (C1) in section 1, which states:

\"Nothing in section 102 (State Hospitals) of the National Health Service (Scotland) Act 1978 prevents or restricts the detention of a patient\".

I am sure that a range of acts and sections do not affect that action, so why did the minister feel it necessary to insert subsection (C1) in the bill?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706711", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Convener: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 60.0, "ContributionID": 706711, "EditedText": "No, Mr Gallie. I made a mistake earlier, as I should not have asked Dennis Canavan to move his amendment; you do not have to move your amendment, either. The debate hinges on Mr McLetchie moving amendment 1, and that is what we are discussing, but other members wish to speak to their amendments. I call Roseanna Cunningham to speak to amendment 7.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, Mr Gallie. I made a mistake earlier, as I should not have asked Dennis Canavan to move his amendment; you do not have to move your amendment, either. The debate hinges on Mr McLetchie moving amendment 1, and that is what we are discussing, but other members wish to speak to their amendments.

I call Roseanna Cunningham to speak to amendment 7.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C706724", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 91.0, "ContributionID": 706724, "EditedText": "If the minister approaches the medical practitioners who are dealing with that individual, what problems of confidentiality do they face in advising the minister?", "EditedTextHTML": "If the minister approaches the medical practitioners who are dealing with that individual, what problems of confidentiality do they face in advising the minister?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C706727", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Simpson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 97.0, "ContributionID": 706727, "EditedText": "The amendment does not need to go into the act. I will tell the member why.", "EditedTextHTML": "The amendment does not need to go into the act. I will tell the member why.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2033E106P139C706733", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gray, Iain", "ID": 2033, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Pentlands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Iain Gray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Community Care (Iain Gray): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 109.0, "ContributionID": 706733, "EditedText": "We must get beyond the confusion about this. Is Mr Hamilton aware that until 9 March this year the RMO was convinced of the treatability of Mr Ruddle? On that date he changed his view on the basis of discussions with his colleagues and decided that Mr Ruddle was not treatable. On 10 March, the appeal began. The basis of Mr Ruddle's appeal and release is that he was considered to be untreatable, not the lack of treatment, as Mr Hamilton says. Criticisms were made in the sheriff's report and that is why the Mental Welfare Commission report has been asked for. Let us be clear that the decision was that Mr Ruddle was not treatable.", "EditedTextHTML": "We must get beyond the confusion about this. Is Mr Hamilton aware that until 9 March this year the RMO was convinced of the treatability of Mr Ruddle? On that date he changed his view on the basis of discussions with his colleagues and decided that Mr Ruddle was not treatable. On 10 March, the appeal began. The basis of Mr Ruddle's appeal and release is that he was considered to be untreatable, not the lack of treatment, as Mr Hamilton says. Criticisms were made in the sheriff's report and that is why the Mental Welfare Commission report has been asked for. Let us be clear that the decision was that Mr Ruddle was not treatable.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1811E172P455C706737", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ullrich, Kay", "ID": 1811, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kay Ullrich", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Kay Ullrich (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 117.0, "ContributionID": 706737, "EditedText": "One of the major issues thrown up by the Ruddle case— despite what some members have said—was Ruddle's treatability. It was claimed that Ruddle was untreatable, but we now know that that was not the case: treatment for his condition was available—just not at Carstairs. Whether some people like it or not, Ruddle was entitled to treatment. He was not sent to Carstairs to be detained: he was made the subject of a restriction order so that he could receive treatment for his condition in a hospital. Our problem with the bill's proposed amendment of the Mental Health (Scotland) Act 1984 is that section 1 states that a person can \"continue to be detained in a hospital, whether for medical treatment or not.\" That seems to imply that public safety would be better served by keeping a person untreated and in hospital, rather than in prison. Is that an admission that the security in our state hospital is superior to that in our prisons? I hope not. We consider that our amendment clarifies the issue of treatability.", "EditedTextHTML": "One of the major issues thrown up by the Ruddle case— despite what some members have said—was Ruddle's treatability. It was claimed that Ruddle was untreatable, but we now know that that was not the case: treatment for his condition was available—just not at Carstairs. Whether some people like it or not, Ruddle was entitled to treatment. He was not sent to Carstairs to be detained: he was made the subject of a restriction order so that he could receive treatment for his condition in a hospital.

Our problem with the bill's proposed amendment of the Mental Health (Scotland) Act 1984 is that section 1 states that a person can

\"continue to be detained in a hospital, whether for medical treatment or not.\"

That seems to imply that public safety would be better served by keeping a person untreated and in hospital, rather than in prison. Is that an admission that the security in our state hospital is superior to that in our prisons? I hope not.

We consider that our amendment clarifies the issue of treatability.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C706743", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 131.0, "ContributionID": 706743, "EditedText": "As Mr Galbraith said, such a person would be considered treatable. Kay Ullrich and others suggested that untreatable people could be sent to prison. I made it clear earlier that if the original disposal of a case resulted in a hospital order with no imprisonment—it is possible to get a hospital order in conjunction with a sentence of imprisonment—it would not be permissible for the patient to be sent to prison. It would be against the European convention on human rights to do so. Perhaps Roseanna Cunningham is suggesting a third way. We are moving into the territory of the MacLean and Millan committees and we should not trespass. We already know what Bruce Millan has said and we will consider those issues in the light of the reports of those committees. Having spent 16 years at Westminster hearing ministers give technical reasons why amendments that I supported are not proper, I do not wish to do that now, but it is important that I do so as there is a technical problem with Roseanna Cunningham's amendment. It says that \"the sheriff considering an appeal under subsection (A1)\"— which relates to the prevention of serious harm— \"shall take account of the suitability for the patient of the facilities in which continued detention would take place\". That raises the interesting question of what the sheriff should do when, on taking account of the facilities, as he would be obliged to do, he finds them to be unsuitable. Would we be creating another loophole? We are trying to remain focused on what we are trying to do with this bill.", "EditedTextHTML": "As Mr Galbraith said, such a person would be considered treatable. Kay Ullrich and others suggested that untreatable people could be sent to prison. I made it clear earlier that if the original disposal of a case resulted in a hospital order with no imprisonment—it is possible to get a hospital order in conjunction with a sentence of imprisonment—it would not be permissible for the patient to be sent to prison. It

would be against the European convention on human rights to do so.

Perhaps Roseanna Cunningham is suggesting a third way. We are moving into the territory of the MacLean and Millan committees and we should not trespass. We already know what Bruce Millan has said and we will consider those issues in the light of the reports of those committees.

Having spent 16 years at Westminster hearing ministers give technical reasons why amendments that I supported are not proper, I do not wish to do that now, but it is important that I do so as there is a technical problem with Roseanna Cunningham's amendment. It says that

\"the sheriff considering an appeal under subsection (A1)\"— which relates to the prevention of serious harm—

\"shall take account of the suitability for the patient of the facilities in which continued detention would take place\".

That raises the interesting question of what the sheriff should do when, on taking account of the facilities, as he would be obliged to do, he finds them to be unsuitable. Would we be creating another loophole? We are trying to remain focused on what we are trying to do with this bill.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1863E284P532C706744", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Cunningham, Roseanna", "ID": 1863, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Perth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Roseanna Cunningham", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Roseanna Cunningham: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 133.0, "ContributionID": 706744, "EditedText": "With respect, I think that Mr Wallace's criticism might apply to Mr McLetchie's amendment but it does not apply to mine. It is because of the point that Mr Wallace raises that my amendment suggests what the sheriff might do if there are concerns about the suitability of the facility.", "EditedTextHTML": "With respect, I think that Mr Wallace's criticism might apply to Mr McLetchie's amendment but it does not apply to mine. It is because of the point that Mr Wallace raises that my amendment suggests what the sheriff might do if there are concerns about the suitability of the facility.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C706745", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 135.0, "ContributionID": 706745, "EditedText": "The amendment says that the sheriff can \"make an order in connection with the delivery of treatment to the patient\" if he considers it appropriate, but there is a possibility that he would consider such action inappropriate or unfeasible. We have had a narrow focus on what we want the bill to achieve and I am concerned that an amendment such as Roseanna Cunningham's could, unwittingly, open another loophole as it seeks to close one. Mr MacAskill said that the Mental Welfare Commission for Scotland is the appropriate place to turn to when considering questions of treatability. That is what has happened in relation not only to Mr Ruddle but to patients in similar circumstances. The Millan committee is reviewing care and treatment. Bruce Millan has told us that he does not want legislation on those areas at this stage. As Euan Robson mentioned, another problem that we would have with this amendment is the inflexibility that it would create. One often finds, in cases such as the ones we are discussing, that conditions can change. If ministers are directed by a sheriff to comply with an order, an inflexibility might be built in that might not be in the patient's best interests. I repeat—someone picked it up—that it is not our intention that patients should be sent to the state hospital, or to any other hospital, and that the key should be thrown away. It is important that patients' welfare and well-being are kept to the fore. Hospital managers and, indeed, ministers must always have regard to those considerations. I repeat my assurance that the state hospital will be allocated the resources that are needed to provide the care and treatment that are determined by clinicians to be appropriate for the patient. That is a practical response to the points that have been raised. My concern is that the legislative route that has been suggested could create further loopholes. I therefore invite the committee to resist the amendments in this group.", "EditedTextHTML": "The amendment says that the sheriff can

\"make an order in connection with the delivery of treatment to the patient\" if he considers it appropriate, but there is a possibility that he would consider such action inappropriate or unfeasible. We have had a narrow focus on what we want the bill to achieve and I am concerned that an amendment such as Roseanna Cunningham's could, unwittingly, open another loophole as it seeks to close one.

Mr MacAskill said that the Mental Welfare Commission for Scotland is the appropriate place to turn to when considering questions of treatability. That is what has happened in relation not only to Mr Ruddle but to patients in similar circumstances. The Millan committee is reviewing care and treatment. Bruce Millan has told us that he does not want legislation on those areas at this stage.

As Euan Robson mentioned, another problem that we would have with this amendment is the inflexibility that it would create. One often finds, in cases such as the ones we are discussing, that conditions can change. If ministers are directed by a sheriff to comply with an order, an inflexibility might be built in that might not be in the patient's best interests.

I repeat—someone picked it up—that it is not our intention that patients should be sent to the state hospital, or to any other hospital, and that the key should be thrown away. It is important that patients' welfare and well-being are kept to the fore. Hospital managers and, indeed, ministers must always have regard to those considerations.

I repeat my assurance that the state hospital will be allocated the resources that are needed to provide the care and treatment that are determined by clinicians to be appropriate for the patient. That is a practical response to the points that have been raised. My concern is that the legislative route that has been suggested could create further loopholes. I therefore invite the committee to resist the amendments in this group.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706746", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Convener: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 137.0, "ContributionID": 706746, "EditedText": "We will now come to a decision on the 24 amendments in this group. The lead amendment was moved by Mr David McLetchie—members should follow the marshalled list. The question is, that amendment 1 be agreed to. Are we all agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "We will now come to a decision on the 24 amendments in this group.

The lead amendment was moved by Mr David McLetchie—members should follow the marshalled list. The question is, that amendment 1 be agreed to. Are we all agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C706747", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 139.0, "ContributionID": 706747, "EditedText": "On a point of order. With the permission of the Parliament, am I allowed to withdraw the amendment in light of the assurances that were given by the minister?", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. With the permission of the Parliament, am I allowed to withdraw the amendment in light of the assurances that were given by the minister?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706750", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Convener: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 145.0, "ContributionID": 706750, "EditedText": "Are we all agreed to that amendment? Minister, it is no good shaking your head; you must shout no.", "EditedTextHTML": "Are we all agreed to that amendment?

Minister, it is no good shaking your head; you must shout no.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4359165+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706761", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Convener: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 166.0, "ContributionID": 706761, "EditedText": "Mr McLetchie, are you moving amendment 6?", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr McLetchie, are you moving amendment 6?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4359165+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C706762", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 168.0, "ContributionID": 706762, "EditedText": "I move amendment 6.", "EditedTextHTML": "I move amendment 6.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4359165+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706764", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 172.0, "ContributionID": 706764, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4359165+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706768", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 179.0, "ContributionID": 706768, "EditedText": "Amendment 6 disagreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment 6 disagreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4359165+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706772", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 186.0, "ContributionID": 706772, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4359165+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C706773", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Alex Salmond (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 188.0, "ContributionID": 706773, "EditedText": "Yes. Yes. The Convener: One yes is enough, Mr Salmond. There will now be a division. Members should vote yes to agree to the amendment and no to disagree.", "EditedTextHTML": "

Yes. Yes. The Convener: One yes is enough, Mr Salmond. There will now be a division. Members should vote yes to agree to the amendment and no to disagree.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4359165+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706775", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Convener: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 191.0, "ContributionID": 706775, "EditedText": "The results of the division are as follows: For 32, Against 79, Abstentions 0.", "EditedTextHTML": "The results of the division are as follows: For 32, Against 79, Abstentions 0.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4359165+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706776", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 193.0, "ContributionID": 706776, "EditedText": "Amendment 7 disagreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment 7 disagreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4359165+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706785", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Convener: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 210.0, "ContributionID": 706785, "EditedText": "Are you moving amendment 12, Mr McLetchie?", "EditedTextHTML": "Are you moving amendment 12, Mr McLetchie?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4359165+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706787", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Convener: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 214.0, "ContributionID": 706787, "EditedText": "Are you moving amendment 13, Mr Canavan?", "EditedTextHTML": "Are you moving amendment 13, Mr Canavan?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4359165+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706789", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Convener: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 218.0, "ContributionID": 706789, "EditedText": "You have suddenly become very popular, Mr Canavan. Laughter.", "EditedTextHTML": "You have suddenly become very popular, Mr Canavan. [Laughter.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4359165+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706791", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Convener: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 221.0, "ContributionID": 706791, "EditedText": "Number 15, Mr McLetchie?", "EditedTextHTML": "Number 15, Mr McLetchie?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4359165+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706793", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Convener: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 226.0, "ContributionID": 706793, "EditedText": "You will both be popular. Technically, I must allow any member the chance to move the amendments, so I shall run through the list. Does any member wish to move the following amendments: 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23 and 24? It seems not. We move now to group 2, which deals with retrospectivity. I call Mr Gallie to move amendment 25, with which we will discuss amendment 31.", "EditedTextHTML": "You will both be popular. Technically, I must allow any member the chance to move the amendments, so I shall run through the list. Does any member wish to move the following amendments: 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23 and 24? It seems not.

We move now to group 2, which deals with retrospectivity. I call Mr Gallie to move amendment 25, with which we will discuss amendment 31.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4359165+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C706798", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 236.0, "ContributionID": 706798, "EditedText": "Will the minister clarify one point? If the date of 1 September in section 3(2) were replaced by a later date, so that all the provisions of this bill came into effect at the same time—at a later date than today—how many, if any, appeals would be affected?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister clarify one point? If the date of 1 September in section 3(2) were replaced by a later date, so that all the provisions of this bill came into effect at the same time—at a later date than today—how many, if any, appeals would be affected?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4359165+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C706799", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 238.0, "ContributionID": 706799, "EditedText": "That would depend on at what later date the bill came into effect. The date of 1 September—the date of publication of the bill— covers any appeal that is currently outstanding and still to have a hearing. The date of the hearing is critical, as that is when the sheriff has to weigh up the evidence that is put before him regarding both public safety and the treatability of the patient.", "EditedTextHTML": "That would depend on at what later date the bill came into effect. The date of 1 September—the date of publication of the bill— covers any appeal that is currently outstanding and still to have a hearing. The date of the hearing

is critical, as that is when the sheriff has to weigh up the evidence that is put before him regarding both public safety and the treatability of the patient.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4359165+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706802", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Convener: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 244.0, "ContributionID": 706802, "EditedText": "The question is, that amendment 25 be agreed to. Is that agreed to?", "EditedTextHTML": "The question is, that amendment 25 be agreed to. Is that agreed to?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4359165+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706804", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Convener: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 248.0, "ContributionID": 706804, "EditedText": "There will be a division.", "EditedTextHTML": "There will be a division.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706808", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Convener: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 257.0, "ContributionID": 706808, "EditedText": "If members agree, we will not move to a division, but we will pass this anomaly to the Procedures Committee. Are we agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "If members agree, we will not move to a division, but we will pass this anomaly to the Procedures Committee. Are we agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C706811", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 262.0, "ContributionID": 706811, "EditedText": "I would like a division on amendment 31.", "EditedTextHTML": "I would like a division on amendment 31.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706813", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 266.0, "ContributionID": 706813, "EditedText": "Section 1 agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Section 1 agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1863E284P532C706818", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Cunningham, Roseanna", "ID": 1863, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Perth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Roseanna Cunningham", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Roseanna Cunningham: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 274.0, "ContributionID": 706818, "EditedText": "I wish to make one or two brief comments. As Mr Gallie said, this amendment emanates from the Law Society in recognition of the serious steps that we are taking, which will affect the liberties of a certain category of individuals. We are doing so rightly but we should nevertheless recognise that what we are doing is extremely important and that we must ensure safeguards where possible. This amendment is one possible safeguard. In effect, by building in a prearranged time scale for hearing the appeals, we will guard against people continuing to be detained over what may become an almost indefinite period pending an appeal hearing. Such a hearing may take a very long time to arrange, or—heaven forfend—proceedings may be deliberately stalled at the convenience of ministers, who would rather that matters did not come to a conclusion too quickly. This amendment seeks to build in a time scale for the appeals to be heard within an expedited period.", "EditedTextHTML": "I wish to make one or two brief comments. As Mr Gallie said, this amendment emanates from the Law Society in recognition of the serious steps that we are taking, which will affect the liberties of a certain category of individuals. We are doing so rightly but we should nevertheless recognise that what we are doing is extremely important and that we must ensure safeguards where possible.

This amendment is one possible safeguard. In effect, by building in a prearranged time scale for hearing the appeals, we will guard against people continuing to be detained over what may become an almost indefinite period pending an appeal hearing. Such a hearing may take a very long time to arrange, or—heaven forfend—proceedings may be deliberately stalled at the convenience of ministers, who would rather that matters did not come to a conclusion too quickly. This amendment seeks to build in a time scale for the appeals to be heard within an expedited period.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706821", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 280.0, "ContributionID": 706821, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706823", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 284.0, "ContributionID": 706823, "EditedText": "Amendment 26 disagreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment 26 disagreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706824", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Convener: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 285.0, "ContributionID": 706824, "EditedText": "Does Mr Gallie want to move amendment 27?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does Mr Gallie want to move amendment 27?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706828", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 292.0, "ContributionID": 706828, "EditedText": "Section 3MEANING OF \"MENTAL DISORDER\" IN THE 1984 ACT", "EditedTextHTML": "Section 3

MEANING OF \"MENTAL DISORDER\" IN THE 1984 ACT

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706829", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Convener: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 293.0, "ContributionID": 706829, "EditedText": "We now come to amendment 37, with which we are discussing amendments 28 and 29.", "EditedTextHTML": "We now come to amendment 37, with which we are discussing amendments 28 and 29.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1752E75P296C706835", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jamieson, Cathy", "ID": 1752, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Cathy Jamieson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Cathy Jamieson (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 307.0, "ContributionID": 706835, "EditedText": "The comments that Kay Ullrich has just made seem to imply that the legislation would somehow affect people whose personality disorders did not make them a risk to the public. As I said during a presentation that I made last week, the legislation is designed to close a loophole. The reference that Kay Ullrich made is unhelpful. Such references have been made consistently and they paint a false picture of what the legislation is intended to do. Will she comment on that?", "EditedTextHTML": "The comments that Kay Ullrich has just made seem to imply that the legislation would somehow affect people whose personality disorders did not make them a risk to the public.

As I said during a presentation that I made last week, the legislation is designed to close a loophole. The reference that Kay Ullrich made is unhelpful. Such references have been made consistently and they paint a false picture of what the legislation is intended to do. Will she comment on that?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C706833", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 303.0, "ContributionID": 706833, "EditedText": "The aim of amendment 30 is very similar to the aims of the amendments supported by Michael Matheson and David McLetchie. In view of their remarks—most of which I support—I shall keep my comments to a minimum. Section 3(1) will insert the phrase \"(including personality disorder)\" into the 1984 act. I think that it would be in the general interest if the words \"personality disorder\" were more focused. A considerable proportion of the people of Scotland suffer from personality disorders, but I hope that they will never come within the scope of this bill, and I hope that it is not the Executive's intention that they should ever do so. So why on earth should they be included by the use of such a wide phrase as \"personality disorder\"? That is what is proposed in the wording of the bill as it stands. Last week, I lodged some parliamentary questions about the issue—I do not know whether the minister knows about that, but I hope that I will get a reply in due course. I did not really expect to get a reply before today's debate, but perhaps the minister will give some indication of the official estimate of the number of people in Scotland who suffer from a personality disorder. How many people in Carstairs state hospital or other state hospitals suffer from personality disorders? How many of those people have personality disorders that can be classified as presenting some danger to the public? As Bruce Millan said in his letter to the Deputy First Minister, it is very important that we do not imagine, or put across to the general public, that people who suffer from mental illness are all going to pose some threat to the general public, because that is untrue. Unlike Dr Simpson, I am not a psychiatrist, but I imagine that the overwhelming majority of people with personality disorders do not present any threat to the general public at all. I do not see why they should be included within the scope of this bill. From my reading in preparation for this debate, I understand that some people use the term \"psychopath\" similarly, if not synonymously, to the way in which they use the phrase \"someone with an anti-social personality disorder\". Is that correct? Is that an accurate definition in the eyes of psychiatrists, the law or both? I would welcome an explanation from the minister. As members can see, I have proposed that, instead of the phrase \"(including personality disorder)\", we should have \"(including dangerous anti-social personality disorder)\". As Michael Matheson said, that would help to focus this emergency legislation on the small minority of people on whom it is meant to be focused.", "EditedTextHTML": "The aim of amendment 30 is very similar to the aims of the amendments supported by Michael Matheson and David

McLetchie. In view of their remarks—most of which I support—I shall keep my comments to a minimum.

Section 3(1) will insert the phrase \"(including personality disorder)\" into the 1984 act. I think that it would be in the general interest if the words \"personality disorder\" were more focused. A considerable proportion of the people of Scotland suffer from personality disorders, but I hope that they will never come within the scope of this bill, and I hope that it is not the Executive's intention that they should ever do so. So why on earth should they be included by the use of such a wide phrase as \"personality disorder\"? That is what is proposed in the wording of the bill as it stands.

Last week, I lodged some parliamentary questions about the issue—I do not know whether the minister knows about that, but I hope that I will get a reply in due course. I did not really expect to get a reply before today's debate, but perhaps the minister will give some indication of the official estimate of the number of people in Scotland who suffer from a personality disorder. How many people in Carstairs state hospital or other state hospitals suffer from personality disorders? How many of those people have personality disorders that can be classified as presenting some danger to the public?

As Bruce Millan said in his letter to the Deputy First Minister, it is very important that we do not imagine, or put across to the general public, that people who suffer from mental illness are all going to pose some threat to the general public, because that is untrue. Unlike Dr Simpson, I am not a psychiatrist, but I imagine that the overwhelming majority of people with personality disorders do not present any threat to the general public at all. I do not see why they should be included within the scope of this bill.

From my reading in preparation for this debate, I understand that some people use the term \"psychopath\" similarly, if not synonymously, to the way in which they use the phrase \"someone with an anti-social personality disorder\". Is that correct? Is that an accurate definition in the eyes of psychiatrists, the law or both? I would welcome an explanation from the minister.

As members can see, I have proposed that, instead of the phrase \"(including personality disorder)\", we should have \"(including dangerous anti-social personality disorder)\". As Michael Matheson said, that would help to focus this emergency legislation on the small minority of people on whom it is meant to be focused.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C706839", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Simpson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 317.0, "ContributionID": 706839, "EditedText": "I, too, have some sympathy with amendment 28 moved by Mr Matheson, but our problem is that we are trying to do something specific and limited. The members who support the SNP amendment and others are trying to move everything forward to 1999 from 1984 instead of considering the parts that we need to amend to achieve our focused objective. I have a dilemma. When the Millan committee considers the issue, it will need to investigate this aspect in detail and with extreme care, but it is not necessary for us to amend the bill in the way suggested by the amendment. I am unhappy with the terms that are used in the amendment. It is unnecessary and goes beyond the scope of the change that is needed. As I understand it, section 17 still applies—I hope that the minister will confirm that, because I am not a lawyer—and that is the test that must be passed before one comes to the tests that we are now talking about. If that is the case, the situation is already covered adequately and there is no need for the amendment.", "EditedTextHTML": "I, too, have some sympathy with amendment 28 moved by Mr Matheson, but our problem is that we are trying to do something specific and limited. The members who support the SNP amendment and others are trying to move everything forward to 1999 from 1984 instead of considering the parts that we need to amend to achieve our focused objective.

I have a dilemma. When the Millan committee considers the issue, it will need to investigate this aspect in detail and with extreme care, but it is not necessary for us to amend the bill in the way suggested by the amendment. I am unhappy with the terms that are used in the amendment. It is unnecessary and goes beyond the scope of the change that is needed. As I understand it, section 17 still applies—I hope that the minister will confirm that, because I am not a lawyer—and that is the test that must be passed before one comes to the tests that we are now talking about. If that is

the case, the situation is already covered adequately and there is no need for the amendment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2033E106P139C706841", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gray, Iain", "ID": 2033, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Pentlands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Iain Gray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Iain Gray: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 321.0, "ContributionID": 706841, "EditedText": "I will endeavour to be brief, as a number of the points that have been raised have been debated fully. For Mr McLetchie's benefit, I will try to respond without a safety metaphor. Laughter. I want to return to the purpose of what we are doing. A number of members—and they are right—have said that we must focus on our narrow purpose, which is to close the loophole. The question then was why we need to make this clarification—for that is what we believe it is—in the definition of mental disorder. We must be open: this is a belt and braces measure. We believe that personality disorder is included in mental disorder, and has been for many years. We want to make that absolutely clear so that there is no possibility of opening up a slightly different loophole. We do not intend to widen the definition of personality disorder. All these amendments seek to qualify the reference to personality disorder and, in different ways, to limit its scope. We have studied them very carefully and I am grateful—particularly to Mr Matheson, Mr McLetchie and Mr Canavan—for setting out so clearly the reasoning behind their amendments. We have listened to them very carefully. We have also listened to the concerns of the mental health community. I reiterate, however, that this is a topic on which psychiatrists hold very different views, as do the various bodies in the mental health community. Several members have mentioned the Mental Welfare Commission for Scotland, the important views of which have been considered. Reference has also been made to the Scottish Association for Mental Health, which thinks that the clarification that we have made is useful, correct and does not broaden the definition of mental disorder at all. Amendment 28 seeks to reduce the scope of the definition by including the words: \"including a persistent personality disorder manifested principally by abnormally aggressive or seriously irresponsible conduct\". It is our belief that the amendment is not necessary. The tests from section 17 will apply. The reaction of the chamber to Mrs Ullrich's suggestion that those who have obsessive handwashing syndrome would be brought into the ambit of the act showed how far behind the terms of the debate that kind of suggestion is.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will endeavour to be brief, as a number of the points that have been raised have been debated fully. For Mr McLetchie's benefit, I will try to respond without a safety metaphor. [Laughter.] I want to return to the purpose of what we are doing. A number of members—and they are right—have said that we must focus on our narrow purpose, which is to close the loophole. The question then was why we need to make this clarification—for that is what we believe it is—in the definition of mental disorder.

We must be open: this is a belt and braces measure. We believe that personality disorder is included in mental disorder, and has been for many years. We want to make that absolutely clear so that there is no possibility of opening up a slightly different loophole. We do not intend to widen the definition of personality disorder.

All these amendments seek to qualify the reference to personality disorder and, in different ways, to limit its scope. We have studied them very carefully and I am grateful—particularly to Mr Matheson, Mr McLetchie and Mr Canavan—for setting out so clearly the reasoning behind their amendments. We have listened to them very carefully. We have also listened to the concerns of the mental health community. I reiterate, however, that this is a topic on which psychiatrists hold very different views, as do the various bodies in the mental health community.

Several members have mentioned the Mental Welfare Commission for Scotland, the important views of which have been considered. Reference has also been made to the Scottish Association for Mental Health, which thinks that the clarification that we have made is useful, correct and does not broaden the definition of mental disorder at all.

Amendment 28 seeks to reduce the scope of the definition by including the words:

\"including a persistent personality disorder manifested principally by abnormally aggressive or seriously irresponsible conduct\".

It is our belief that the amendment is not necessary. The tests from section 17 will apply. The reaction of the chamber to Mrs Ullrich's suggestion that those who have obsessive handwashing syndrome would be brought into the ambit of the act showed how far behind the terms of the debate that kind of suggestion is.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2033E106P139C706843", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gray, Iain", "ID": 2033, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Pentlands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Iain Gray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Iain Gray: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 325.0, "ContributionID": 706843, "EditedText": "I have only two minutes, Ms Cunningham, and I am summing up, so I should move on. Amendment 29 would add \"anti-social\" to thedefinition, and amendment 30 suggests the addition of \"dangerous anti-social\". Both fail on two counts the test that we have tried to set. First, personality disorder is the term that has been used for many years and with which we are familiar. By tinkering with it, both proposals run the risk of opening a new gap in the definition. The more serious concern is that the amendments stray far into the territory of MacLean and Millan. Mr Canavan's question about clarification of the term psychopath is a good indication of how complex that territory is. It is not a term favoured by psychiatrists, but many psychologists use it. To make changes such as \"anti-social\" or \"dangerously anti-social\" is to go down a road that we do not have time to explore properly today. For those reasons we cannot accept the amendments.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have only two minutes, Ms Cunningham, and I am summing up, so I should move on.

Amendment 29 would add \"anti-social\" to the

definition, and amendment 30 suggests the addition of \"dangerous anti-social\". Both fail on two counts the test that we have tried to set. First, personality disorder is the term that has been used for many years and with which we are familiar. By tinkering with it, both proposals run the risk of opening a new gap in the definition.

The more serious concern is that the amendments stray far into the territory of MacLean and Millan. Mr Canavan's question about clarification of the term psychopath is a good indication of how complex that territory is. It is not a term favoured by psychiatrists, but many psychologists use it. To make changes such as \"anti-social\" or \"dangerously anti-social\" is to go down a road that we do not have time to explore properly today. For those reasons we cannot accept the amendments.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706844", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Convener: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 327.0, "ContributionID": 706844, "EditedText": "Mr Wallace has already moved amendment 37. The question is, that amendment 37 be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Wallace has already moved amendment 37. The question is, that amendment 37 be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706845", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 329.0, "ContributionID": 706845, "EditedText": "Amendment 37 agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment 37 agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706846", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Convener: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 330.0, "ContributionID": 706846, "EditedText": "I ask Mr Wallace or Mr Gray to move amendment 38.", "EditedTextHTML": "I ask Mr Wallace or Mr Gray to move amendment 38.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C706847", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Jim Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 332.0, "ContributionID": 706847, "EditedText": "I move amendment 38.", "EditedTextHTML": "I move amendment 38.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706849", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 336.0, "ContributionID": 706849, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706850", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Convener: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 338.0, "ContributionID": 706850, "EditedText": "There will be a division. Members have 30 seconds in which to cast their votes.", "EditedTextHTML": "There will be a division. Members have 30 seconds in which to cast their votes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706859", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 354.0, "ContributionID": 706859, "EditedText": "FOR Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)AGAINST Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)(LD)Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)ABSTENTIONS Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)

AGAINST

Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)
(LD)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)

ABSTENTIONS

Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706860", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Convener: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 355.0, "ContributionID": 706860, "EditedText": "The result of the division is as follows: For 18, Against 65, Abstentions 29.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result of the division is as follows: For 18, Against 65, Abstentions 29.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706865", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 364.0, "ContributionID": 706865, "EditedText": "FOR Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West) Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP) AGAINST Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)(LD)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)ABSTENTIONS Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)

AGAINST

Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)
(LD)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)

ABSTENTIONS

Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706867", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 367.0, "ContributionID": 706867, "EditedText": "Amendment 31 disagreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment 31 disagreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706868", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Convener: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 368.0, "ContributionID": 706868, "EditedText": "Mr Wallace will move amendment 39.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Wallace will move amendment 39.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706870", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Convener: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 372.0, "ContributionID": 706870, "EditedText": "The question is, that the amendment be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "The question is, that the amendment be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C706879", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 388.0, "ContributionID": 706879, "EditedText": "I am more than happy to accept the minister's explanation, so I withdraw my amendment.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am more than happy to accept the minister's explanation, so I withdraw my amendment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C706882", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 393.0, "ContributionID": 706882, "EditedText": "Amendment 33 places a statutory obligation on the Scottish Executive to review this legislation after the Millan and MacLean committees have completed their work. The Millan committee is the one examining the Mental Health (Scotland) Act 1984 and the MacLean committee is examining the sentencing and treatment of serious violent and sexual offenders. In its declarations, the Executive has said that it must take into account the workings of those committees, so this emergency legislation will almost certainly have to be repealed or amended months from now. I am proposing that we put into statute an obligation on the Scottish Executive to do what it has said it will do. Similarly, in amendment 36, I have said that after a six-month period, a statutory instrument should be placed before this Parliament for approval—or otherwise. That would give Parliament the opportunity to repeal this emergency legislation or decide if it should continue for another period. During my many years at the Westminster Parliament, ministers have laid various emergency provisions before the House saying that it will be only for a period of six months or a year. Some of those so-called temporary, emergency provisions have lasted for more than 20 years. This is the first bill to come before our Scottish Parliament. There are many people—including Bruce Millan and me—who do not like the emergency nature of this legislation. It would be a great pity and might bring our Parliament into disrepute if this bill, which is being passed in too much haste today, became permanent rather than temporary legislation. It is therefore important that amendment 36 is passed to give the Scottish Parliament the opportunity, in six months' time, to decide whether this legislation is still necessary or should be repealed or amended in the light of the work of Bruce Millan and Lord MacLean. Amendment 35 was intended to ensure that all of the sections of the act came into force on the same day. I dealt with that point during the debate on retrospectivity, so members know my views on that matter. I do not like retrospective legislation, but I do not want to bore the Parliament by going over the same old ground. I ask the minister to look sympathetically at amendments 33 and 36. I move amendment 33.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment 33 places a statutory obligation on the Scottish Executive to review this legislation after the Millan and MacLean committees have completed their work. The Millan committee is the one examining the Mental Health (Scotland) Act 1984 and the MacLean committee is examining the sentencing and treatment of serious violent and sexual offenders.

In its declarations, the Executive has said that it must take into account the workings of those committees, so this emergency legislation will almost certainly have to be repealed or amended months from now. I am proposing that we put into statute an obligation on the Scottish Executive to do what it has said it will do. Similarly, in amendment 36, I have said that after a six-month period, a statutory instrument should be placed before this Parliament for approval—or otherwise. That would give Parliament the opportunity to repeal this emergency legislation or decide if it should continue for another period.

During my many years at the Westminster Parliament, ministers have laid various emergency provisions before the House saying that it will be only for a period of six months or a year. Some of those so-called temporary, emergency provisions have lasted for more than 20 years. This is the first bill to come before our Scottish Parliament. There are many people—including Bruce Millan and me—who do not like the emergency nature of this legislation.

It would be a great pity and might bring our Parliament into disrepute if this bill, which is being passed in too much haste today, became permanent rather than temporary legislation. It is therefore important that amendment 36 is passed to give the Scottish Parliament the opportunity, in six months' time, to decide whether this legislation is still necessary or should be repealed or amended in the light of the work of Bruce Millan and Lord MacLean.

Amendment 35 was intended to ensure that all of the sections of the act came into force on the same day. I dealt with that point during the debate on retrospectivity, so members know my views on that matter. I do not like retrospective legislation, but I do not want to bore the Parliament by going over the same old ground. I ask the minister to look sympathetically at amendments 33 and 36.

I move amendment 33.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C706883", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 395.0, "ContributionID": 706883, "EditedText": "I will perhaps surprise Mr Canavan when I say that we agree with him on deleting \"Section 2 of\". In amendment 34, we go further by asking that the whole of subsections (2) and (3) be deleted, in the belief that by so doing this bill will come in as a oner. There is no need to space out the dates when parts of it come into effect. What we propose would be the quickest way to get it on the statute book. We do not agree with Mr Canavan's comments about his other amendments. We look to the minister to explain why he feels subsections (2) and (3) are necessary.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will perhaps surprise Mr Canavan when I say that we agree with him on deleting \"Section 2 of\". In amendment 34, we go further by asking that the whole of subsections (2) and (3) be deleted, in the belief that by so doing this bill will come in as a oner. There is no need to space out the dates when parts of it come into effect. What we propose would be the quickest way to get it on the statute book. We do not agree with Mr Canavan's comments about his other amendments. We look to the minister to explain why he feels subsections (2) and (3) are necessary.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C706889", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 406.0, "ContributionID": 706889, "EditedText": "In view of the encouragement that I have been given, it would be churlish of me not to move amendment 34.", "EditedTextHTML": "In view of the encouragement that I have been given, it would be churlish of me not to move amendment 34.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C706893", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 413.0, "ContributionID": 706893, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706894", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Convener: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 415.0, "ContributionID": 706894, "EditedText": "I am sorry. As amendment 34 has been agreed to, amendments 35 and 36 fall. The question is, that section 4, as amended, be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry. As amendment 34 has been agreed to, amendments 35 and 36 fall.

The question is, that section 4, as amended, be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706895", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 417.0, "ContributionID": 706895, "EditedText": "Section 4, as amended, agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Section 4, as amended, agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706900", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26761, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 424.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 424.0, "ID": 26761, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 425.0, "ContributionID": 706900, "EditedText": "We move immediately to a consideration of stage 3 of the bill in a meeting of the full Parliament. This debate will be on motion S1M-121, in the name of Mr Jim Wallace, which seeks the Parliament's agreement that the bill be passed, and will be followed after 30 minutes by a decision.", "EditedTextHTML": "We move immediately to a consideration of stage 3 of the bill in a meeting of the full Parliament. This debate will be on motion S1M-121, in the name of Mr Jim Wallace, which seeks the Parliament's agreement that the bill be passed, and will be followed after 30 minutes by a decision.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C706901", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26761, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 424.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 424.0, "ID": 26761, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice (Mr Jim Wallace): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 428.0, "ContributionID": 706901, "EditedText": "I will not dwell on this, as we have had a proper and full discussion of these matters. This is the first time that Parliament has discussed a bill at stage 3. As we are moving toward passing the first bill in this Parliament, I acknowledge the help that the other parties, and Mr Canavan, have given, and the constructive way in which they have approached this emergency legislation, while at the same time highlighting important matters and allowing us to have proper debate and consideration of the legislation. I also put on record thanks to the officials and to the draftsmen, who have worked exceptionally hard in the aftermath of the Ruddle judgment to allow us to bring in legislation today. Voting for the bill does not mean that everybody has to agree on how the Ruddle case was handled or how mental health legislation should be framed for the next century. We are rightly responding as a Parliament to an urgent call to protect the public with a short, considered and targeted bill. This is an important measure for Scotland. We can and should complete it today. I move,That the Parliament agrees that the Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill be passed.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will not dwell on this, as we have had a proper and full discussion of these matters. This is the first time that Parliament has discussed a bill at stage 3. As we are moving toward passing the first bill in this Parliament, I acknowledge the help that the other parties, and Mr Canavan, have given, and the constructive way in which they have approached this emergency legislation, while at the same time highlighting important matters and allowing us to have proper debate and consideration of the legislation. I also put on record thanks to the officials and to the draftsmen, who have worked exceptionally hard in the aftermath of the Ruddle judgment to allow us to bring in legislation today.

Voting for the bill does not mean that everybody has to agree on how the Ruddle case was handled or how mental health legislation should be framed for the next century. We are rightly responding as a Parliament to an urgent call to protect the public with a short, considered and targeted bill. This is an important measure for Scotland. We can and should complete it today.

I move,

That the Parliament agrees that the Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill be passed.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706903", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26761, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 424.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 424.0, "ID": 26761, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 432.0, "ContributionID": 706903, "EditedText": "That is technically correct.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is technically correct.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706680", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26757, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26757, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 12.0, "ContributionID": 706680, "EditedText": "Motion moved,", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion moved,

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706682", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26757, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26757, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 14.0, "ContributionID": 706682, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706683", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26757, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26757, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 15.0, "ContributionID": 706683, "EditedText": "The next item of business is Parliamentary Bureau motion S1M-130, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, on the timetabling of debates in stages 2 and 3 of the mental health bill. Again, this motion will be taken without debate and will be followed immediately by a decision.", "EditedTextHTML": "The next item of business is Parliamentary Bureau motion S1M-130, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, on the timetabling of debates in stages 2 and 3 of the mental health bill. Again, this motion will be taken without debate and will be followed immediately by a decision.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706685", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26757, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26757, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 18.0, "ContributionID": 706685, "EditedText": "That the Parliament agrees that the time for consideration of Stages 2 and 3 of the Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill be allotted as follows, so that debate on each part of the proceedings, if not previously brought to a conclusion, shall be brought to a conclusion on the expiry of the specified period (calculated from the time when Stage 2 begins)—", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament agrees that the time for consideration of Stages 2 and 3 of the Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill be allotted as follows, so that debate on each part of the proceedings, if not previously brought to a conclusion, shall be brought to a conclusion on the expiry of the specified period (calculated from the time when Stage 2 begins)—

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" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706687", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26757, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26757, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 20.0, "ContributionID": 706687, "EditedText": "Section 1 up to and including line 40 on page 2 of the Bill", "EditedTextHTML": "Section 1 up to and including line 40 on page 2 of the Bill

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706688", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26757, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26757, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 21.0, "ContributionID": 706688, "EditedText": "- 1 hour 20 minutes Sections 1 and 2 up to and including line 23 on page 3 of the Bill - 1 hour 40 minutes", "EditedTextHTML": "- 1 hour 20 minutes Sections 1 and 2 up to and including line 23 on page 3 of the Bill - 1 hour 40 minutes

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706693", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26757, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26757, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 26.0, "ContributionID": 706693, "EditedText": "Stage 3—Meeting of the Parliament", "EditedTextHTML": "Stage 3—Meeting of the Parliament

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706698", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Committee of the Whole Parliament", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26758, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 32.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 32.0, "ID": 26758, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 33.0, "ContributionID": 706698, "EditedText": "THE CONVENER opened the meeting at 14:34", "EditedTextHTML": "[THE CONVENER opened the meeting at 14:34]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706700", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 37.0, "ContributionID": 706700, "EditedText": "Section 1CONTINUED DETENTION OF MENTALLY DISORDERED PATIENTS ON GROUNDS OF PUBLIC SAFETY", "EditedTextHTML": "Section 1

CONTINUED DETENTION OF MENTALLY DISORDERED PATIENTS ON GROUNDS OF PUBLIC SAFETY

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C706701", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie (Lothians) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 38.0, "ContributionID": 706701, "EditedText": "The purpose of this amendment and the consequential amendment 10 is to clarify the standard of proof that is to be applied by the sheriff in consideration of appeals presented under sections 64 and 66 of the Mental Health (Scotland) Act 1984. Section 1 covers the burden of proof, but the standard of proof requires separate consideration. Does the minister consider that, in weighing the evidence, the sheriff need only be satisfied in accordance with the civil law test—that is, on the balance of probabilities—or does he require to satisfy himself in accordance with the criminal law test of beyond reasonable doubt? If the minister takes the view, as I trust he does, that the balance of probabilities test is the appropriate standard of proof, is he satisfied that that does not require to be expressly stated in the bill as being the appropriate test in relation to the prior issue of protection of the public from serious harm that the sheriff will now be required to consider in proceedings under this section and section 66 as amended? Those are my comments on amendment 1. I am down to speak on a number of other amendments and, before I move amendment 1, I want to comment on amendment 6, which has also been lodged in my name. Phil Gallie will, if he is invited to, speak to the other amendments that are in my name in this group on the order paper. On amendment 6, I wish to highlight some concerns about the bill that have been raised by the Scottish Association for Mental Health, based on the sheriff's findings in the Ruddle case. The sheriff commented that there was not simply a therapeutic delay in the receipt by Mr Ruddle of specific focus psychological treatment, but that, in fact, treatment was never made available to him, nor was it available. In his judgment, the sheriff also expressed disappointment that the board or management committee of the state hospital was unable to make necessary arrangements to provide the treatment that was considered clinically necessary by the responsible medical officer. The new provisions, which we support, require the sheriff to give prior consideration to the issue of public safety. If the sheriff is not satisfied that it would be safe to order the discharge of the patient, that is the end of the matter and the other issues that are covered by section 64 do not require to be decided. Given the failures to provide treatment and to protect the interests of the patient that were identified by the sheriff in the Ruddle case, we believe that it would be desirable to empower the sheriff to make recommendations in his judgment as to the suitability of the health care that is being provided to the patient in the hospital in which he is to continue to be detained in the interests of public safety. In our view, that strikes an important balance. Roseanna Cunningham has raised a similar point in amendment 7 and she will wish to expand on that line of reasoning when she addresses the committee. The difference between her approach and ours is that her amendment would empower the sheriff to make a mandatory order in relation to treatment, whereas our view is that a less prescriptive approach is required. The recommendations that my amendment would empower the sheriff to make would carry considerable weight and authority, while giving the minister, hospital officials and expert medical staff the necessary flexibility to determine how such recommendations were implemented in the interests of the patient. I move amendment 1.", "EditedTextHTML": "The purpose of this amendment and the consequential amendment 10 is to clarify the standard of proof that is to be applied by the sheriff in consideration of appeals presented under sections 64 and 66 of the Mental Health (Scotland) Act 1984.

Section 1 covers the burden of proof, but the standard of proof requires separate consideration. Does the minister consider that, in weighing the evidence, the sheriff need only be satisfied in accordance with the civil law test—that is, on the balance of probabilities—or does he require to satisfy himself in accordance with the criminal law test of beyond reasonable doubt?

If the minister takes the view, as I trust he does, that the balance of probabilities test is the appropriate standard of proof, is he satisfied that that does not require to be expressly stated in the bill as being the appropriate test in relation to the prior issue of protection of the public from serious harm that the sheriff will now be required to consider in proceedings under this section and section 66 as amended?

Those are my comments on amendment 1. I am down to speak on a number of other amendments and, before I move amendment 1, I want to comment on amendment 6, which has also been lodged in my name. Phil Gallie will, if he is invited to, speak to the other amendments that are in my name in this group on the order paper.

On amendment 6, I wish to highlight some concerns about the bill that have been raised by the Scottish Association for Mental Health, based on the sheriff's findings in the Ruddle case. The sheriff commented that there was not simply a therapeutic delay in the receipt by Mr Ruddle of specific focus psychological treatment, but that, in fact, treatment was never made available to him, nor was it available.

In his judgment, the sheriff also expressed disappointment that the board or management committee of the state hospital was unable to make necessary arrangements to provide the treatment that was considered clinically necessary by the responsible medical officer.

The new provisions, which we support, require the sheriff to give prior consideration to the issue of public safety. If the sheriff is not satisfied that it would be safe to order the discharge of the patient, that is the end of the matter and the other issues that are covered by section 64 do not require to be decided.

Given the failures to provide treatment and to protect the interests of the patient that were identified by the sheriff in the Ruddle case, we believe that it would be desirable to empower the sheriff to make recommendations in his judgment as to the suitability of the health care that is being provided to the patient in the hospital in which he is to continue to be detained in the interests of public safety. In our view, that strikes an important balance.

Roseanna Cunningham has raised a similar point in amendment 7 and she will wish to expand on that line of reasoning when she addresses the committee. The difference between her approach and ours is that her amendment would empower the sheriff to make a mandatory order in relation to treatment, whereas our view is that a less prescriptive approach is required.

The recommendations that my amendment would empower the sheriff to make would carry considerable weight and authority, while giving the minister, hospital officials and expert medical staff the necessary flexibility to determine how such recommendations were implemented in the interests of the patient.

I move amendment 1.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C706719", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Richard Simpson (Ochil) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 80.0, "ContributionID": 706719, "EditedText": "I realise that what I am about to say goes to the heart of the SNP's amendment, but Mr Ruddle was deemed to be untreatable by the sheriff. Mr Ruddle had two different conditions, one of which was a personality disorder that was deemed to be untreatable. It is not true to say that the patient was capable of being treated but was released nevertheless. That would not have been possible under the act, because the sheriff would still have acted wrongly. He did not do so.", "EditedTextHTML": "I realise that what I am about to say goes to the heart of the SNP's amendment, but Mr Ruddle was deemed to be untreatable by the sheriff. Mr Ruddle had two different conditions, one of which was a personality disorder that was deemed to be untreatable. It is not true to say that the patient was capable of being treated but was released nevertheless. That would not have been possible under the act, because the sheriff would still have acted wrongly. He did not do so.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C706713", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Jim Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 66.0, "ContributionID": 706713, "EditedText": "Now that all the amendments have been spoken to, it might be helpful if I were to give some indication of the Executive's response to them. There will be an opportunity for other members to intervene in the debate and I shall be happy to respond to their points. The amendments seek to amend section 1, which deals with the continued detention of mentally disordered patients on grounds of public safety. It is not surprising that there are so many amendments to the section, as public safety is at the heart of our proposals to close the gap that has been identified in the Ruddle case. We seek to close that gap by ensuring that mentally disordered patients are not discharged from hospital if they are still considered to present a risk of serious harm to the public. I hope that I can give reassurance through my response to the amendments that we have closed the loophole that was highlighted in the recent case. Mr McLetchie moved amendment 1, which seeks to ensure that the sheriff, in considering an appeal, is satisfied that, \"on the balance of probabilities,\"the patient is suffering from a mental disorder and that it is necessary for reasons of public safety to continue to detain him in hospital. Amendment 10, which is linked to that, raises the same point. I can assure Mr McLetchie and other members that the sheriff, when hearing such appeals, sits in a civil capacity and is, therefore, required to consider evidence on the basis of the balance of probabilities—not beyond reasonable doubt. The presumption in all such civil cases is that the sheriff proceeds on the basis of the balance of probability, as is reflected in current practice. Therefore, while I understand where Mr McLetchie's amendment is coming from, there is no need for that to be put in the bill. I shall take the amendments in the order in which they appear on the marshalled list, rather than in the order in which they were spoken to. Amendment 2, lodged by Mr Canavan, seeks to replace our public safety test with one that would \"prevent the patient constituting a danger to himself or to the public\". That provides for a far less stringent public safety test than the bill envisages for appeals to the sheriff. Mr Canavan asked whether there were precedents for the test. Section 68 of the Mental Health (Scotland) Act 1984 applies the same test and some criminal legislation refers to a similar one. If the bill is passed as I propose, section 64(1)(a) of the 1984 act will state that if the sheriff is satisfied that the patient is suffering from a mental disorder and that continuing detention in hospital is necessary to protect the public from serious harm, he must refuse the appeal. Mr Canavan's amendment proposes a test that would be easier to meet and that would offer less protection to the patient. We need to try to get a balance—as Mr Canavan urged us to do— between the rights of the patient and the important matter of protecting the public from serious harm. That is what we have sought to do by applying a test that is already in our statutes and that is considered by sheriffs in their proceedings. Amendment 2 also proposes an additional consideration, that of \"the patient constituting a danger to himself\".We do not believe that that consideration fits well with the public safety test proposed by the bill. As I have indicated, it is a test with which the sheriffs are familiar. Mr Canavan mentioned Mr Bruce Millan's letter, which I have made available to members. Sir David, I hope that as Mr Canavan was allowed some latitude to refer to the letter, I may give some indication of our response to Mr Millan. We welcome the fact that Bruce Millan is chairing the committee that is taking an overall view of mental health. I have indicated to Mr Millan that we understand his concern about the emergency nature of the bill, but \"remain firmly of the view that the legislation is required, and required quickly, to protect the interests of public safety\". I think that it is fair to say that that view is shared by the Parliament as a whole, given the way in which stage 1 was approved by the Parliament last week. The decision of the sheriff at Lanark did expose a loophole, which the bill has no wider purpose than to close. The Executive obviously wants to emphasise the importance of the work that Bruce Millan's committee is doing. One of the things that we were concerned about and about which we took great care when drafting the legislation was the need to restrict the scope of the bill to that which was necessary to cope with the situation that we faced. We also wanted to put it on record that the legislation was an interim measure, pending the result of a more wide-ranging review of the 1984 act. In my letter to Mr Millan, I have sought to reassure him and his committee that \"the Executive fully recognises the important place of care and treatment for people with mental disorder.\" I also told him—and this is relevant to some of the other points raised by Mr McLetchie, Ms Cunningham and Mr Canavan—that \"That is why we asked the Mental Welfare Commission for Scotland to inquire into the care and treatment of Mr Ruddle and other patients with similar conditions in the State Hospital.\" That responds directly to some of the points made by the sheriff, which Ms Cunningham read out. In limited emergency legislation, it would have been wrong of us to deal with those wider issues. It would have cut across the work not only of Bruce Millan's committee, but of the committee that Lord MacLean is chairing, which deals with serious and violent offenders.", "EditedTextHTML": "Now that all the amendments have been spoken to, it might be helpful if I were to give some indication of the Executive's response to them. There will be an opportunity for other members to intervene in the debate and I shall be happy to respond to their points.

The amendments seek to amend section 1, which deals with the continued detention of mentally disordered patients on grounds of public safety. It is not surprising that there are so many amendments to the section, as public safety is at the heart of our proposals to close the gap that has been identified in the Ruddle case. We seek to close that gap by ensuring that mentally disordered patients are not discharged from hospital if they are still considered to present a risk of serious harm to the public. I hope that I can give reassurance through my response to the amendments that we have closed the loophole that was highlighted in the recent case.

Mr McLetchie moved amendment 1, which seeks to ensure that the sheriff, in considering an appeal, is satisfied that,

\"on the balance of probabilities,\"

the patient is suffering from a mental disorder and that it is necessary for reasons of public safety to continue to detain him in hospital. Amendment 10, which is linked to that, raises the same point.

I can assure Mr McLetchie and other members that the sheriff, when hearing such appeals, sits in a civil capacity and is, therefore, required to consider evidence on the basis of the balance of probabilities—not beyond reasonable doubt. The presumption in all such civil cases is that the sheriff proceeds on the basis of the balance of probability, as is reflected in current practice. Therefore, while I understand where Mr McLetchie's amendment is coming from, there is no need for that to be put in the bill.

I shall take the amendments in the order in which they appear on the marshalled list, rather than in the order in which they were spoken to. Amendment 2, lodged by Mr Canavan, seeks to replace our public safety test with one that would

\"prevent the patient constituting a danger to himself or to the public\".

That provides for a far less stringent public safety test than the bill envisages for appeals to the sheriff. Mr Canavan asked whether there were precedents for the test. Section 68 of the Mental Health (Scotland) Act 1984 applies the same test and some criminal legislation refers to a similar one. If the bill is passed as I propose, section 64(1)(a) of the 1984 act will state that if the sheriff is satisfied that the patient is suffering from a mental disorder and that continuing detention in hospital is necessary to protect the public from serious harm, he must refuse the appeal.

Mr Canavan's amendment proposes a test that would be easier to meet and that would offer less protection to the patient. We need to try to get a balance—as Mr Canavan urged us to do— between the rights of the patient and the important matter of protecting the public from serious harm. That is what we have sought to do by applying a test that is already in our statutes and that is considered by sheriffs in their proceedings.

Amendment 2 also proposes an additional consideration, that of

\"the patient constituting a danger to himself\".

We do not believe that that consideration fits well with the public safety test proposed by the bill. As I have indicated, it is a test with which the sheriffs are familiar.

Mr Canavan mentioned Mr Bruce Millan's letter, which I have made available to members. Sir David, I hope that as Mr Canavan was allowed some latitude to refer to the letter, I may give some indication of our response to Mr Millan.

We welcome the fact that Bruce Millan is chairing the committee that is taking an overall view of mental health. I have indicated to Mr Millan that we understand his concern about the emergency nature of the bill, but

\"remain firmly of the view that the legislation is required, and required quickly, to protect the interests of public safety\".

I think that it is fair to say that that view is shared by the Parliament as a whole, given the way in which stage 1 was approved by the Parliament last week.

The decision of the sheriff at Lanark did expose a loophole, which the bill has no wider purpose than to close. The Executive obviously wants to emphasise the importance of the work that Bruce Millan's committee is doing. One of the things that we were concerned about and about which we took great care when drafting the legislation was the need to restrict the scope of the bill to that which was necessary to cope with the situation that we faced. We also wanted to put it on record that the legislation was an interim measure, pending the result of a more wide-ranging review of the 1984 act.

In my letter to Mr Millan, I have sought to reassure him and his committee that

\"the Executive fully recognises the important place of care and treatment for people with mental disorder.\"

I also told him—and this is relevant to some of the other points raised by Mr McLetchie, Ms Cunningham and Mr Canavan—that

\"That is why we asked the Mental Welfare Commission for Scotland to inquire into the care and treatment of Mr Ruddle and other patients with similar conditions in the State Hospital.\"

That responds directly to some of the points made by the sheriff, which Ms Cunningham read out. In limited emergency legislation, it would have been wrong of us to deal with those wider issues. It would have cut across the work not only of Bruce Millan's committee, but of the committee that Lord MacLean is chairing, which deals with serious and violent offenders.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C706721", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Simpson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 84.0, "ContributionID": 706721, "EditedText": "I do not propose to deal with amendment 1 because I think that it has already been dealt with. The Mental Health (Scotland) Act 1984 is a civil law and, although I am a psychiatrist, not a lawyer, I believe that the \"beyond reasonable doubt\" issue does not apply as the matter concerns a balance of probability. Therefore, I hope that the amendment will fall. The question of harm versus serious harm isdifficult. Those in psychiatry are debating the issue at considerable length, for example in reference to confidentiality. One of the problems currently facing psychiatrists is the duty of the psychiatrist when a patient reveals information during a clinical discussion about harm or possible harm that they intend towards the public. It is emerging from the discussions—and it is relevant to the debate—that psychiatrists are suggesting, as are some of the judgments in other countries, that the harm intended by the patient should be quite specific. It should not be a generality of harm, but should be specific to one individual. In other words, it should be focused and serious in its nature. To leave out the word \"serious\" could lead to the detention of many people in the state hospital who would, as a result of a personality disorder, cause some harm to the public. I think that that would be wrong and is against the general tenor of Mr Canavan's speech. The balance that Mr Wallace referred to is crucial and we must not affect it by removing the word \"serious\". I shall deal with the question of detention in a hospital as opposed to detention in prison. I worked in Cornton Vale prison for 23 years. We saw inmates who were transferred to the state hospital at Carstairs and back during that time. In my view, those who suffered from a serious personality disorder were much better managed— not treated, but managed—in the state system. The difference between treatment and management lies at the heart of the problem that the Parliament faces. As I said last week, we would not have had to deal with the Ruddle loophole if the treatability test had been met. In the past 15 years since the 1984 act was introduced, there has been movement in psychiatrists' views about what is and is not treatable, which has caused the loophole in the act. Our colleagues in England and Wales have been lucky because so far there has not been a successful appeal under a similar act in England and Wales. I understand that, like us, they are considering the act under similar reviews to that of MacLean and Millan. I hope that they are not faced with a similar difficulty to this one. I suggest that treatment in the state hospital is to the advantage of the patient, because their welfare and well-being can be better managed there than in the prison service. In the Ruddle case, there is confusion over the management of his alcohol problem and the management of his personality. That has become confused in amendment 7, proposed by Roseanna Cunningham. Alcohol problems are not grounds on which people can detain a patient. That is illegal and cannot be done. In addition, there is considerable debate as to whether alcohol problems are treatable. The consequences of alcohol addiction are treatable, but alcohol addiction is probably not treatable. It can be managed—people can be given help with its management—but it is not treatable. The gap between management and treatment lies at the heart of our problem. The act as it stands—and I suggest that all the amendments be rejected—provides for the main thing that must be done, which is to protect the public from the small group of prisoners who predated the introduction of the hospital direction order in 1998. That is the group that we are dealing with.", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not propose to deal with amendment 1 because I think that it has already been dealt with. The Mental Health (Scotland) Act 1984 is a civil law and, although I am a psychiatrist, not a lawyer, I believe that the \"beyond reasonable doubt\" issue does not apply as the matter concerns a balance of probability. Therefore, I hope that the amendment will fall.

The question of harm versus serious harm is

difficult. Those in psychiatry are debating the issue at considerable length, for example in reference to confidentiality. One of the problems currently facing psychiatrists is the duty of the psychiatrist when a patient reveals information during a clinical discussion about harm or possible harm that they intend towards the public. It is emerging from the discussions—and it is relevant to the debate—that psychiatrists are suggesting, as are some of the judgments in other countries, that the harm intended by the patient should be quite specific. It should not be a generality of harm, but should be specific to one individual. In other words, it should be focused and serious in its nature. To leave out the word \"serious\" could lead to the detention of many people in the state hospital who would, as a result of a personality disorder, cause some harm to the public. I think that that would be wrong and is against the general tenor of Mr Canavan's speech. The balance that Mr Wallace referred to is crucial and we must not affect it by removing the word \"serious\".

I shall deal with the question of detention in a hospital as opposed to detention in prison. I worked in Cornton Vale prison for 23 years. We saw inmates who were transferred to the state hospital at Carstairs and back during that time. In my view, those who suffered from a serious personality disorder were much better managed— not treated, but managed—in the state system. The difference between treatment and management lies at the heart of the problem that the Parliament faces. As I said last week, we would not have had to deal with the Ruddle loophole if the treatability test had been met. In the past 15 years since the 1984 act was introduced, there has been movement in psychiatrists' views about what is and is not treatable, which has caused the loophole in the act.

Our colleagues in England and Wales have been lucky because so far there has not been a successful appeal under a similar act in England and Wales. I understand that, like us, they are considering the act under similar reviews to that of MacLean and Millan. I hope that they are not faced with a similar difficulty to this one. I suggest that treatment in the state hospital is to the advantage of the patient, because their welfare and well-being can be better managed there than in the prison service.

In the Ruddle case, there is confusion over the management of his alcohol problem and the management of his personality. That has become confused in amendment 7, proposed by Roseanna Cunningham. Alcohol problems are not grounds on which people can detain a patient. That is illegal and cannot be done. In addition, there is considerable debate as to whether alcohol problems are treatable. The consequences of alcohol addiction are treatable, but alcohol addiction is probably not treatable. It can be managed—people can be given help with its management—but it is not treatable. The gap between management and treatment lies at the heart of our problem.

The act as it stands—and I suggest that all the amendments be rejected—provides for the main thing that must be done, which is to protect the public from the small group of prisoners who predated the introduction of the hospital direction order in 1998. That is the group that we are dealing with.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C706725", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Simpson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 93.0, "ContributionID": 706725, "EditedText": "As I understand it, a doctor is allowed to make a report on a patient who is detained. That would not change. I hope that that has answered Mr Gallie's point. I will conclude my recommendation that the committee reject the amendments. It is imperative—it has been given to us by the minister and the Parliament will continue to review it—that where treatment for a condition exists in the state hospital system, it should be made available to patients. Roseanna Cunningham's amendment 7 makes a valid point, but it does not need to be incorporated in the act. It should be a general matter, not specific to section 64. It should apply to all detained prisoners, no matter their situation.", "EditedTextHTML": "As I understand it, a doctor is allowed to make a report on a patient who is detained. That would not change. I hope that that has answered Mr Gallie's point.

I will conclude my recommendation that the committee reject the amendments. It is imperative—it has been given to us by the minister and the Parliament will continue to review it—that where treatment for a condition exists in the state hospital system, it should be made available to patients. Roseanna Cunningham's amendment 7 makes a valid point, but it does not need to be incorporated in the act. It should be a general

matter, not specific to section 64. It should apply to all detained prisoners, no matter their situation.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1863E284P532C706728", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Cunningham, Roseanna", "ID": 1863, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Perth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Roseanna Cunningham", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Roseanna Cunningham rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 99.0, "ContributionID": 706728, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1863E284P532C706730", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Cunningham, Roseanna", "ID": 1863, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Perth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Roseanna Cunningham", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Roseanna Cunningham: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 103.0, "ContributionID": 706730, "EditedText": "My amendment contains a specific reference to the delivery of treatment, not to the treatment itself. It addresses the possibility that there will be cases in which treatments might be available but cannot be delivered at that time. It is the delivery of treatment that is the concern. We all accept, I believe, that it is entirely possible—otherwise, we would not be debating the bill—that there will be occasions when people are genuinely untreatable. The amendment gets round the concern that we might be defining treatability as including occasions when it is not convenient to provide treatment, for whatever reason. We should not do that.", "EditedTextHTML": "My amendment contains a specific reference to the delivery of treatment, not to the treatment itself. It addresses the possibility that there will be cases in which treatments might be available but cannot be delivered at that time. It is the delivery of treatment that is the concern. We all accept, I believe, that it is entirely possible—otherwise, we would not be debating the bill—that there will be occasions when people are genuinely untreatable. The amendment gets round the concern that we might be defining treatability as including occasions when it is not convenient to provide treatment, for whatever reason. We should not do that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1985E207P501C706734", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hamilton, Mr Duncan", "ID": 1985, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Hamilton: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 111.0, "ContributionID": 706734, "EditedText": "Yes, but the sting in the tail was at the end. For four years the reports were very clear, as the sheriff said in his judgment—that the treatment was not being provided. As has been said, that is why the commission was set up. How can a guarantee be given that it will not happen again? It all comes back to what Richard Simpson said: that there is a lot of agreement with what we are saying but you do not want to put it into legislation. That is an odd view of legislation. The purpose of legislation is to safeguard the rights and interests of society as a whole and of the individual. If you believe in the amendment in principle it seems odd not to take that principle forward in legislation. The amendment directs the sheriff to look not only at the nature of the treatment that is being given in the institution but at the delivery of treatment. That was another area of confusion—it is a question not of the sheriff directing treatment but of the sheriff directing the delivery of treatment and, if treatment is not available, ensuring that it is, whether by its being brought in or by moving the patient. We must be clear about the difference between treatment and the delivery of treatment. It is fair enough to talk about public safety and the public interest, but it is also in the public interest that people who are treatable should be given treatment. It is not in anyone's interest to say that they are not treatable, so we will lock them up on a technicality and throw away the key. We must guard against that in the bill and that is what the amendment tries to do. Patients' rights are being paid no more than lip service. It is not enough to assume that, in the public interest and for reasons of public safety, society has an absolute right to ride roughshod over every other right—that is not acceptable in a modern, democratic society. The Government is obsessed with the phrase, \"rights and responsibilities\"—if you take on yourself the right to remove somebody's liberty, you have the responsibility to ensure that they receive treatment.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes, but the sting in the tail was at the end. For four years the reports were very clear, as the sheriff said in his judgment—that the treatment was not being provided. As has been said, that is why the commission was set up. How can a guarantee be given that it will not happen again? It all comes back to what Richard Simpson said: that there is a lot of agreement with what we are saying but you do not want to put it into legislation. That is an odd view of legislation.

The purpose of legislation is to safeguard the rights and interests of society as a whole and of the individual. If you believe in the amendment in

principle it seems odd not to take that principle forward in legislation. The amendment directs the sheriff to look not only at the nature of the treatment that is being given in the institution but at the delivery of treatment. That was another area of confusion—it is a question not of the sheriff directing treatment but of the sheriff directing the delivery of treatment and, if treatment is not available, ensuring that it is, whether by its being brought in or by moving the patient. We must be clear about the difference between treatment and the delivery of treatment.

It is fair enough to talk about public safety and the public interest, but it is also in the public interest that people who are treatable should be given treatment. It is not in anyone's interest to say that they are not treatable, so we will lock them up on a technicality and throw away the key. We must guard against that in the bill and that is what the amendment tries to do.

Patients' rights are being paid no more than lip service. It is not enough to assume that, in the public interest and for reasons of public safety, society has an absolute right to ride roughshod over every other right—that is not acceptable in a modern, democratic society. The Government is obsessed with the phrase, \"rights and responsibilities\"—if you take on yourself the right to remove somebody's liberty, you have the responsibility to ensure that they receive treatment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C706738", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 119.0, "ContributionID": 706738, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706748", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Convener: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 141.0, "ContributionID": 706748, "EditedText": "You have already moved the amendment, but you need not shout when I put the question.", "EditedTextHTML": "You have already moved the amendment, but you need not shout when I put the question.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4359165+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C706754", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 152.0, "ContributionID": 706754, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4359165+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706755", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Convener: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 154.0, "ContributionID": 706755, "EditedText": "Mr McLetchie, are you moving amendment 3?", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr McLetchie, are you moving amendment 3?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4359165+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C706756", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 156.0, "ContributionID": 706756, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4359165+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706757", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Convener: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 158.0, "ContributionID": 706757, "EditedText": "Mr Canavan, are you moving amendment 4?", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Canavan, are you moving amendment 4?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4359165+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C706758", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 160.0, "ContributionID": 706758, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4359165+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706759", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Convener: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 162.0, "ContributionID": 706759, "EditedText": "Mr Canavan, are you moving amendment 5?", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Canavan, are you moving amendment 5?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4359165+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C706760", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 164.0, "ContributionID": 706760, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4359165+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706763", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Convener: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 170.0, "ContributionID": 706763, "EditedText": "The question is, that amendment 6 be agreed to. Are we all agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "The question is, that amendment 6 be agreed to. Are we all agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4359165+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706766", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 176.0, "ContributionID": 706766, "EditedText": "FOR Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)AGAINST Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)(LD)Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)ABSTENTIONS Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP) Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)

AGAINST

Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)
(LD)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)

ABSTENTIONS

Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4359165+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706767", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Convener: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 177.0, "ContributionID": 706767, "EditedText": "The result of the division is as follows: For 15, Against 66, Abstentions 30.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result of the division is as follows: For 15, Against 66, Abstentions 30.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4359165+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1863E284P532C706770", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Cunningham, Roseanna", "ID": 1863, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Perth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Roseanna Cunningham", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Roseanna Cunningham: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 182.0, "ContributionID": 706770, "EditedText": "I move amendment 7.", "EditedTextHTML": "I move amendment 7.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4359165+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C706780", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 200.0, "ContributionID": 706780, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4359165+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C706782", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 204.0, "ContributionID": 706782, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4359165+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706777", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Convener: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 194.0, "ContributionID": 706777, "EditedText": "Mr McLetchie, are you moving amendment 8?", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr McLetchie, are you moving amendment 8?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4359165+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706783", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Convener: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 206.0, "ContributionID": 706783, "EditedText": "Are you moving amendment 11, Mr Canavan?", "EditedTextHTML": "Are you moving amendment 11, Mr Canavan?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4359165+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706790", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 220.0, "ContributionID": 706790, "EditedText": "Amendment 14 is not moved.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment 14 is not moved.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4359165+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706803", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 246.0, "ContributionID": 706803, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706812", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Convener: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 264.0, "ContributionID": 706812, "EditedText": "We have not come to amendment 31 yet; we will do so in a few moments. The question is, that section 1 be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "We have not come to amendment 31 yet; we will do so in a few moments.

The question is, that section 1 be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706815", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Convener: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 268.0, "ContributionID": 706815, "EditedText": "Mr McLetchie will now move amendment 26, with which we are discussing amendment 27.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr McLetchie will now move amendment 26, with which we are discussing amendment 27.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C706816", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 270.0, "ContributionID": 706816, "EditedText": "The purpose of amendment 26 is to explore the scope of the appeal that can be taken to the Court of Session under the new section 66A(1). Is the appeal intended to involve a rehearing of the case, thereby inviting the Court of Session to consider the matter anew? Or is the scope of the appeal to the Court of Session to be limited to a review of the sheriff's exercise of the judicial discretion vested in him at first instance? If the scope of the appeal is limited, it would not be open to the Court of Session to interfere with the sheriff's decision merely on the ground that it would have exercised its discretion in a different manner. This could give rise to a situation in which the Court of Session is satisfied that there is evidence to justify a finding that a patient should be kept in custody in the interests of public safety, and would have made such a finding itself, but is not prepared to interfere with the sheriff's finding to the contrary because there are no legal grounds for doing so. I wish it to be made explicit in the bill that the court may review the evidence anew and may come, if necessary, to a different decision based on the facts and not simply on the sheriff's application of the law to the facts or on points of law alone. If the minister is not prepared to accept the amendment, I seek an assurance from him that the scope of re-appeal is sufficiently wide, in the bill as drafted, to cover the points that I have raised in the amendment and that there is no need for the matter to be clarified in the legislation. Mr Gallie will move the other amendment in my name in this group. I move amendment 26.", "EditedTextHTML": "The purpose of amendment 26 is to explore the scope of the appeal that can be taken to the Court of Session under the new section 66A(1).

Is the appeal intended to involve a rehearing of the case, thereby inviting the Court of Session to consider the matter anew? Or is the scope of the appeal to the Court of Session to be limited to a review of the sheriff's exercise of the judicial discretion vested in him at first instance? If the scope of the appeal is limited, it would not be open to the Court of Session to interfere with the sheriff's decision merely on the ground that it would have exercised its discretion in a different manner. This could give rise to a situation in which the Court of Session is satisfied that there is evidence to justify a finding that a patient should be kept in custody in the interests of public safety, and would have made such a finding itself, but is not prepared to interfere with the sheriff's finding to the contrary because there are no legal grounds for doing so.

I wish it to be made explicit in the bill that the court may review the evidence anew and may come, if necessary, to a different decision based on the facts and not simply on the sheriff's application of the law to the facts or on points of law alone. If the minister is not prepared to accept the amendment, I seek an assurance from him that the scope of re-appeal is sufficiently wide, in the bill as drafted, to cover the points that I have raised in the amendment and that there is no need for the matter to be clarified in the legislation.

Mr Gallie will move the other amendment in my name in this group.

I move amendment 26.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706822", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Convener: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 282.0, "ContributionID": 706822, "EditedText": "We will move to a division and members will have 30 seconds in which to vote. I apologise. We are in the same position as before. If the chamber is so minded, we will act similarly. I take it that that amendment has not been agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "We will move to a division and members will have 30 seconds in which to vote.

I apologise. We are in the same position as before. If the chamber is so minded, we will act similarly. I take it that that amendment has not been agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C706825", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 287.0, "ContributionID": 706825, "EditedText": "Not moved.", "EditedTextHTML": "Not moved.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706826", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Convener: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 289.0, "ContributionID": 706826, "EditedText": "The question is, that section 2 be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "The question is, that section 2 be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706827", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 291.0, "ContributionID": 706827, "EditedText": "Section 2 agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Section 2 agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2033E106P139C706830", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gray, Iain", "ID": 2033, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Pentlands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Iain Gray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Iain Gray: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 295.0, "ContributionID": 706830, "EditedText": "In debating stage 1 of the bill last week, we made it clear that this was emergency legislation and that it was about one thing and one thing only. It was and is about public safety. It was and is about ensuring that there are no further releases from detention of those patients whose diagnosis and condition is similar to that of Noel Ruddle. It is about closing that door—that is all. The bill is certainly not about reforming or modernising mental health legislation. That is why the insertion of \"personality disorder\" as a mental illness, which was always implicit in the Mental Health (Scotland) Act 1984, is made express in the bill. The amendments which we move, 37, 38 and 39, make it plainer still that \"personality disorder\" was included under mental illness—and it still is. It has been the aim not to change that, but to clarify it. This is not the time or place to change that; this is about closing the door—that is all. It is not about, as some have implied, opening the doors of the state hospital to a cohort of new people with mental illnesses, whether they are currently in the community or in prison. The bill will not do that because hospital admission will still require section 17 of the 1984 act to be satisfied: it will still need to be shown that, if the mental disorder from which a patient suffers is persistent, manifested only by abnormally aggressive or seriously irresponsible conduct, treatment in hospital is likely to alleviate the condition or prevent it from deteriorating, and that it is necessary for the health or safety of the person, or for the protection of others, for him to receive such treatment in hospital. That is a very important sentence, although a particularly difficult one to read. It is clearly for doctors to reach that view; in our view, the bill imposes no new responsibilities on doctors or psychiatrists in that respect. The bill affects those seeking to leave detention in hospital; it does not change the process of admission. I gave this assurance yesterday to the Royal College of Psychiatrists and I am happy to give it again in this chamber. We are closing a door; that is all. We are not opening new ones. The Executive is in no doubt about the importance of mental health and the issues surrounding it. We well understand the complexity and difficulty of the definitions of mental disorder, and are conscious of the differing and deeply held convictions regarding such matters, even within the mental health community. That is why we will not open the door to that debate today. Involved in that debate is the MacLean committee, which is examining how to deal with serious offenders, including those with personality disorders. Also involved is the Millan committee, which is, as we asked, reviewing mental health legislation—a difficult job. We will not and must not burst in on those deliberations—they are too important. I acknowledge that even to think about such matters without beginning to stray into MacLean's and Millan's territory is extremely difficult, but to start tinkering with the definition of mental disorder now—which it may be tempting to do—would be irresponsible. Mr Millan's letter, which has been referred to and has been made available, made it very clear that he wishes us to stay out of his room for the moment. The Minister for Health and Community Care and I will throw open the doors to the debate on modernising mental health when the time is right. We will examine all the issues fully in the light of all the experience and expertise available, but we will not do it today because this bill should do as little as possible, commensurate with its aim of improving public safety. As drafted, with the clarifying amendments, improving public safety is what the bill does, and it goes no further. I say again: the bill does not seek to allow anyone to be admitted to hospital who could not be detained under the existing law. For those few—and it is a few—whom the bill affects, we give the assurance, as the Deputy First Minister has already done, that resources will be available for treatment which is considered to be appropriate by clinicians in the state hospital. However, we will not try to define that today, which is why Susan Deacon has asked the Mental Welfare Commission for Scotland to report on this matter properly and separately from the consideration of public safety, with which we are involved today. All around us are interesting and important doors that we need to open, but not today. Today, we have one door to close and these amendments will help us to do that. We all know what we have to do—let us close that door now. I move amendment 37.", "EditedTextHTML": "In debating stage 1 of the bill last week, we made it clear that this was emergency legislation and that it was about one thing and one

thing only. It was and is about public safety. It was and is about ensuring that there are no further releases from detention of those patients whose diagnosis and condition is similar to that of Noel Ruddle. It is about closing that door—that is all. The bill is certainly not about reforming or modernising mental health legislation. That is why the insertion of \"personality disorder\" as a mental illness, which was always implicit in the Mental Health (Scotland) Act 1984, is made express in the bill. The amendments which we move, 37, 38 and 39, make it plainer still that \"personality disorder\" was included under mental illness—and it still is. It has been the aim not to change that, but to clarify it.

This is not the time or place to change that; this is about closing the door—that is all. It is not about, as some have implied, opening the doors of the state hospital to a cohort of new people with mental illnesses, whether they are currently in the community or in prison. The bill will not do that because hospital admission will still require section 17 of the 1984 act to be satisfied: it will still need to be shown that, if the mental disorder from which a patient suffers is persistent, manifested only by abnormally aggressive or seriously irresponsible conduct, treatment in hospital is likely to alleviate the condition or prevent it from deteriorating, and that it is necessary for the health or safety of the person, or for the protection of others, for him to receive such treatment in hospital. That is a very important sentence, although a particularly difficult one to read.

It is clearly for doctors to reach that view; in our view, the bill imposes no new responsibilities on doctors or psychiatrists in that respect. The bill affects those seeking to leave detention in hospital; it does not change the process of admission. I gave this assurance yesterday to the Royal College of Psychiatrists and I am happy to give it again in this chamber. We are closing a door; that is all. We are not opening new ones.

The Executive is in no doubt about the importance of mental health and the issues surrounding it. We well understand the complexity and difficulty of the definitions of mental disorder, and are conscious of the differing and deeply held convictions regarding such matters, even within the mental health community. That is why we will not open the door to that debate today. Involved in that debate is the MacLean committee, which is examining how to deal with serious offenders, including those with personality disorders. Also involved is the Millan committee, which is, as we asked, reviewing mental health legislation—a difficult job. We will not and must not burst in on those deliberations—they are too important. I acknowledge that even to think about such matters without beginning to stray into MacLean's and Millan's territory is extremely difficult, but to start tinkering with the definition of mental disorder now—which it may be tempting to do—would be irresponsible. Mr Millan's letter, which has been referred to and has been made available, made it very clear that he wishes us to stay out of his room for the moment.

The Minister for Health and Community Care and I will throw open the doors to the debate on modernising mental health when the time is right. We will examine all the issues fully in the light of all the experience and expertise available, but we will not do it today because this bill should do as little as possible, commensurate with its aim of improving public safety. As drafted, with the clarifying amendments, improving public safety is what the bill does, and it goes no further.

I say again: the bill does not seek to allow anyone to be admitted to hospital who could not be detained under the existing law. For those few—and it is a few—whom the bill affects, we give the assurance, as the Deputy First Minister has already done, that resources will be available for treatment which is considered to be appropriate by clinicians in the state hospital. However, we will not try to define that today, which is why Susan Deacon has asked the Mental Welfare Commission for Scotland to report on this matter properly and separately from the consideration of public safety, with which we are involved today. All around us are interesting and important doors that we need to open, but not today. Today, we have one door to close and these amendments will help us to do that. We all know what we have to do—let us close that door now.

I move amendment 37.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C706832", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 300.0, "ContributionID": 706832, "EditedText": "The purpose of amendment 29 is similar to the one that Mr Matheson indicated in speaking to amendment 28. I do not think that I need take up the committee's time in replicating many of the points that he made in his substantial contribution to the debate. It is a great pity that the Parliament was unable to give fuller consideration to the definition of mental disorder when it discussed stage 1 of the bill. I was advised by the clerk that, because mental disorder is mentioned in the long title of the bill, the amendment of its definition is one of the bill's general principles and that an amendment to delete section 3 in its entirety, as recommended by the Mental Welfare Commission for Scotland, would not be competent. I assure members that that was the ruling that was given to me. Whether it is correct, I do not know. The matter might be investigated. The memorandum from the Mental Welfare Commission to the minister on 6 September arrived too late for the matter to be considered at stage 1 of the bill. That is not a criticism of the commission, but it does give rise to the concern flagged up by Kenny MacAskill that, in preparing the bill and presenting it to Parliament for approval, the Executive was remiss in not consulting the commission. I was interested to hear Jim Wallace talking about the need to maintain the narrow focus of the bill so as to concentrate on the specific problem that the bill is designed to remedy, which arose as a result of the decision in Mr Ruddle's case. In essence, Mr Gray made the same point, although he did so in a more colourful way and, being a master of metaphor, introduced more windows and doors into the debate than C R Smith could. His point was that we should not be opening doors or closing windows—or whatever the case may be—in a way that might prejudice the outcome of the Millan committee review. That throws into focus the point made by the Mental Welfare Commission—it is not necessary, for the purposes of remedying the deficiency in the law highlighted by the Ruddle case, to go as far as to amend the definition of mental disorder or mental illness to include persons affected by a generality of personality disorders. That is why in amendment 29 we have sought, like Mr Matheson in amendment 28, to narrow the definition so that it applies to a smaller category of people. It cannot be right—given that the amendment relates to a definition in the principal act—that all forms of personality disorder be treated as mental disorders or mental illnesses for the purposes of the act. So wide a definition could extend the scope of the whole act so that many individuals who have never come within the scope of the criminal justice system could now be subject to civil detention. I invite the minister to explain more fully why he considers the amended definition to be absolutely necessary to fulfil the purpose of the bill, which— as the Minister for Justice acknowledged in the debate on earlier amendments—is limited. In that context, I also ask the minister whether the expansion of the definition of mental disorder and mental illness to encompass personality disorders has implications for criminal law in Scotland and for the plea of diminished responsibility. As he will be aware, one line of defence open to an accused charged with murder is to establish that he was suffering from diminished responsibility at the time of the killing. A finding to that effect would enable the jury to reduce the conviction from murder to culpable homicide so that the accused received a determinate sentence instead of the mandatory life sentence. Criminal case law indicates that a judge will allow the plea of diminished responsibility to go to the jury for decision only if there is evidence of mental disorder, mental illness or disease. Evidence of severe personality disorder may not in itself be sufficient. If a personality disorder is now treated as a mental illness for the purposes of the act, that may impact on the plea of diminished responsibility under criminal law. It cannot be right that persons who are simply wicked by nature may be able to exploit such a change in the law to reduce the charge on which they are convicted in the criminal courts.", "EditedTextHTML": "The purpose of amendment 29 is similar to the one that Mr Matheson indicated in speaking to amendment 28. I do not think that I need take up the committee's time in replicating many of the points that he made in his substantial contribution to the debate.

It is a great pity that the Parliament was unable to give fuller consideration to the definition of mental disorder when it discussed stage 1 of the bill. I was advised by the clerk that, because mental disorder is mentioned in the long title of the bill, the amendment of its definition is one of the bill's general principles and that an amendment to delete section 3 in its entirety, as recommended by the Mental Welfare Commission for Scotland, would not be competent. I assure members that that was the ruling that was given to me. Whether it is correct, I do not know. The matter might be investigated.

The memorandum from the Mental Welfare Commission to the minister on 6 September arrived too late for the matter to be considered at stage 1 of the bill. That is not a criticism of the commission, but it does give rise to the concern flagged up by Kenny MacAskill that, in preparing the bill and presenting it to Parliament for approval, the Executive was remiss in not consulting the commission.

I was interested to hear Jim Wallace talking about the need to maintain the narrow focus of the bill so as to concentrate on the specific problem that the bill is designed to remedy, which arose as a result of the decision in Mr Ruddle's case. In essence, Mr Gray made the same point, although he did so in a more colourful way and, being a master of metaphor, introduced more windows and doors into the debate than C R Smith could. His point was that we should not be opening doors or closing windows—or whatever the case may

be—in a way that might prejudice the outcome of the Millan committee review.

That throws into focus the point made by the Mental Welfare Commission—it is not necessary, for the purposes of remedying the deficiency in the law highlighted by the Ruddle case, to go as far as to amend the definition of mental disorder or mental illness to include persons affected by a generality of personality disorders. That is why in amendment 29 we have sought, like Mr Matheson in amendment 28, to narrow the definition so that it applies to a smaller category of people.

It cannot be right—given that the amendment relates to a definition in the principal act—that all forms of personality disorder be treated as mental disorders or mental illnesses for the purposes of the act. So wide a definition could extend the scope of the whole act so that many individuals who have never come within the scope of the criminal justice system could now be subject to civil detention.

I invite the minister to explain more fully why he considers the amended definition to be absolutely necessary to fulfil the purpose of the bill, which— as the Minister for Justice acknowledged in the debate on earlier amendments—is limited.

In that context, I also ask the minister whether the expansion of the definition of mental disorder and mental illness to encompass personality disorders has implications for criminal law in Scotland and for the plea of diminished responsibility. As he will be aware, one line of defence open to an accused charged with murder is to establish that he was suffering from diminished responsibility at the time of the killing. A finding to that effect would enable the jury to reduce the conviction from murder to culpable homicide so that the accused received a determinate sentence instead of the mandatory life sentence.

Criminal case law indicates that a judge will allow the plea of diminished responsibility to go to the jury for decision only if there is evidence of mental disorder, mental illness or disease. Evidence of severe personality disorder may not in itself be sufficient. If a personality disorder is now treated as a mental illness for the purposes of the act, that may impact on the plea of diminished responsibility under criminal law. It cannot be right that persons who are simply wicked by nature may be able to exploit such a change in the law to reduce the charge on which they are convicted in the criminal courts.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2013E134P232C706837", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jackson, Gordon", "ID": 2013, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Govan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Gordon Jackson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Gordon Jackson (Glasgow Govan) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 311.0, "ContributionID": 706837, "EditedText": "I have some sympathy for the amendments—in particular amendment 28, which was spoken to by Mr Matheson. I observed last week and I repeat that I am not persuaded that the bill is the best long-term solution to the problem. I have reservations about including personality disorder in the category of mental illness. I have heard the minister say that this is simply a clarification of the existing law. We may or may not agree about that, but it will certainly have legal consequences. David McLetchie spoke of the possibility of it being used in a plea of diminished responsibility. Undoubtedly that will happen. would like to say two things to David about that. First, one cannot have it both ways. People cannot be defined as bad and wicked for the purposes of conviction, but be defined as ill for some other purpose. Secondly, it will still be for the courts to decide how a person is disposed of. If a jail sentence or life imprisonment is appropriate, that is what will happen. That is not a serious consequence. Despite my reservations about the bill, I firmly believe that amendment 28 does not help. It is not a better way forward. It involves a detailed definition of a particular kind of personality disorder, which may or may not turn out to be helpful. It puts a particular kind of personality disorder in a class of its own in the overall category of mental disorder. Without boring members to death, I will say that that will also have problems of application and interpretation. Whichever way we approach the problem is not without difficulty. The bottom line is that we urgently need to review the subject, which is what will happen when the Millan committee and the MacLean committee report. I hope that any changes that we make will be in the round, not in isolation, because anything less than that is not ideal. However, for the moment, we need to close the loophole in the interests of public safety. The simplest, most direct and most effective short-term way of doing that is to create a stated sub-category of personality disorder within the broad category of mental disorder and mental illness. We should not be scaremongering. The legislation does not mean that anyone with a personality disorder will somehow be whipped off to Carstairs, any more than it means that any person with a degree of mental illness will be taken into custody. There will always be other safeguards and other important criteria to take into account. We must recognise that the legislation means that people—not those with personality disorders such as ourselves, but those who have killed other human beings or who are seriously violent and are a continuing danger because of their mental state—can be kept in a secure environment. That must be our priority. For now, the bill is a simple, direct and effectiveway of achieving that, and for that reason we should simply leave it alone.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have some sympathy for the amendments—in particular amendment 28, which was spoken to by

Mr Matheson. I observed last week and I repeat that I am not persuaded that the bill is the best long-term solution to the problem. I have reservations about including personality disorder in the category of mental illness.

I have heard the minister say that this is simply a clarification of the existing law. We may or may not agree about that, but it will certainly have legal consequences. David McLetchie spoke of the possibility of it being used in a plea of diminished responsibility. Undoubtedly that will happen. would like to say two things to David about that. First, one cannot have it both ways. People cannot be defined as bad and wicked for the purposes of conviction, but be defined as ill for some other purpose. Secondly, it will still be for the courts to decide how a person is disposed of. If a jail sentence or life imprisonment is appropriate, that is what will happen. That is not a serious consequence.

Despite my reservations about the bill, I firmly believe that amendment 28 does not help. It is not a better way forward. It involves a detailed definition of a particular kind of personality disorder, which may or may not turn out to be helpful. It puts a particular kind of personality disorder in a class of its own in the overall category of mental disorder. Without boring members to death, I will say that that will also have problems of application and interpretation. Whichever way we approach the problem is not without difficulty.

The bottom line is that we urgently need to review the subject, which is what will happen when the Millan committee and the MacLean committee report. I hope that any changes that we make will be in the round, not in isolation, because anything less than that is not ideal. However, for the moment, we need to close the loophole in the interests of public safety. The simplest, most direct and most effective short-term way of doing that is to create a stated sub-category of personality disorder within the broad category of mental disorder and mental illness.

We should not be scaremongering. The legislation does not mean that anyone with a personality disorder will somehow be whipped off to Carstairs, any more than it means that any person with a degree of mental illness will be taken into custody. There will always be other safeguards and other important criteria to take into account. We must recognise that the legislation means that people—not those with personality disorders such as ourselves, but those who have killed other human beings or who are seriously violent and are a continuing danger because of their mental state—can be kept in a secure environment. That must be our priority.

For now, the bill is a simple, direct and effective

way of achieving that, and for that reason we should simply leave it alone.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2112E192P495C706838", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacAskill, Kenny", "ID": 2112, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenny MacAskill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr MacAskill: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 313.0, "ContributionID": 706838, "EditedText": "One of the drawbacks of being called towards the end of a debate is that everyone has said what you were going to say. However, the benefit is that you can work out the terms of the debate. I listened to the minister, to Mr McLetchie and to Mr Jackson, and there appears to be much unanimity and consensus on many areas—and on two areas in particular. First, everyone accepts that we are focusing on a narrow area of law. Secondly, we are not undertaking a fundamental review. I will not canvass how we arrived at that position, but it is accepted that a fundamental review will have to be considered by the MacLean committee and the Millan committee. At some stage—either next year or the year after—the Parliament will doubtless have to revisit and reconsider the matter, because we are debating and discussing an area of law and psychiatry that has proved to be fundamental over the past 20 to 40 years. We need to be clear about what we are trying to achieve in the interim. I have a great deal of sympathy with Dr Dyer, who was mentioned earlier. I appreciate his point of view, because the number of people we seek to address in the legislation is relatively few. Everyone accepts that there are a significant number of people in Carstairs, but the number who will be affected by the legislation can be counted, if not on the fingers on one hand, on not many more. The number of those who will be affected will also be reduced on the recommendations of the Millan committee and MacLean committee. I can understand why Dr Dyer says that we should seek to amend section 3; I can appreciate his position. However, I think that the public would view the Parliament as being derelict in its duty if it failed to address the possibility that the people affected, who may be counted on the fingers of one hand, might be released without conditions or without any element of treatability being addressed. On page 3 of his briefing, Dr Dyer says that we should not do that. He says that should Parliament wish to add the term \"personality disorder\" to the category of mental disorder, it should do so in addition to the terms \"mental illness\" and \"mental handicap\", as that is in keeping with current psychiatric thinking, which views the concept of personality disorder as different from the concept of mental illness. That point was canvassed by other MSPs, in particular Mr Jackson. We must recognise that the issue will be dealt with by the MacLean committee, not by a fundamental review. The failure to address section 17 of the Mental Health (Scotland) Act 1984 is a glaring anomaly that has occurred because we are trying to deal with a narrowly focused area that affects a limited number of people over a short period. If we are to do that, we must try to achieve a balance. As my colleague Mr Matheson commented, the difficulty is that the term \"personality disorder\" affects many people and is wide-ranging. Numerous people in Carstairs, the state hospital institution, might be affected by the proposal and, although they might not be the most sympathetic of those we choose to associate with, we have a duty to look after their interest and to take cognisance of their rights. That means that the definition of \"personality disorder\" must be tight. We are talking not about someone who is slightly eccentric, but about people who are a danger. That is what the public wish us to address and where I differ from Dr Dyer. In considering personality disorder, we have a duty to ensure that the remit is as tight as possible, which means that we must specify those with whom we are dealing. I believe that amendment 28 deals with that. It shows that we are dealing not with personality disorder per se, but with \"personality disorder manifested principally by abnormally aggressive or seriously irresponsible conduct\". The public have charged us as parliamentarians with dealing with those people. We have to be quite strict and tight in our definition, so that in the general rush to introduce the emergency legislation, we do not catch the innocent among those whose position needs to be addressed seriously and which we have a duty to investigate.", "EditedTextHTML": "One of the drawbacks of being called towards the end of a debate is that everyone has said what you were going to say. However, the benefit is that you can work out the terms of the debate.

I listened to the minister, to Mr McLetchie and to Mr Jackson, and there appears to be much unanimity and consensus on many areas—and on two areas in particular. First, everyone accepts that we are focusing on a narrow area of law. Secondly, we are not undertaking a fundamental review. I will not canvass how we arrived at that position, but it is accepted that a fundamental review will have to be considered by the MacLean committee and the Millan committee. At some stage—either next year or the year after—the Parliament will doubtless have to revisit and reconsider the matter, because we are debating and discussing an area of law and psychiatry that has proved to be fundamental over the past 20 to 40 years.

We need to be clear about what we are trying to achieve in the interim. I have a great deal of sympathy with Dr Dyer, who was mentioned earlier. I appreciate his point of view, because the number of people we seek to address in the legislation is relatively few. Everyone accepts that there are a significant number of people in Carstairs, but the number who will be affected by the legislation can be counted, if not on the fingers on one hand, on not many more. The number of those who will be affected will also be reduced on the recommendations of the Millan committee and MacLean committee.

I can understand why Dr Dyer says that we should seek to amend section 3; I can appreciate his position. However, I think that the public would view the Parliament as being derelict in its duty if it failed to address the possibility that the people affected, who may be counted on the fingers of one hand, might be released without conditions or without any element of treatability being addressed.

On page 3 of his briefing, Dr Dyer says that we should not do that. He says that should Parliament wish to add the term \"personality disorder\" to the category of mental disorder, it should do so in addition to the terms \"mental illness\" and \"mental handicap\", as that is in keeping with current psychiatric thinking, which views the concept of personality disorder as different from the concept of mental illness. That point was canvassed by other MSPs, in particular Mr Jackson.

We must recognise that the issue will be dealt with by the MacLean committee, not by a fundamental review. The failure to address section

17 of the Mental Health (Scotland) Act 1984 is a glaring anomaly that has occurred because we are trying to deal with a narrowly focused area that affects a limited number of people over a short period. If we are to do that, we must try to achieve a balance.
As my colleague Mr Matheson commented, the difficulty is that the term \"personality disorder\" affects many people and is wide-ranging. Numerous people in Carstairs, the state hospital institution, might be affected by the proposal and, although they might not be the most sympathetic of those we choose to associate with, we have a duty to look after their interest and to take cognisance of their rights. That means that the definition of \"personality disorder\" must be tight. We are talking not about someone who is slightly eccentric, but about people who are a danger. That is what the public wish us to address and where I differ from Dr Dyer.

In considering personality disorder, we have a duty to ensure that the remit is as tight as possible, which means that we must specify those with whom we are dealing. I believe that amendment 28 deals with that. It shows that we are dealing not with personality disorder per se, but with

\"personality disorder manifested principally by abnormally aggressive or seriously irresponsible conduct\".

The public have charged us as parliamentarians with dealing with those people. We have to be quite strict and tight in our definition, so that in the general rush to introduce the emergency legislation, we do not catch the innocent among those whose position needs to be addressed seriously and which we have a duty to investigate.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1985E207P501C706840", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hamilton, Mr Duncan", "ID": 1985, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Hamilton: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 319.0, "ContributionID": 706840, "EditedText": "I will be brief—that is a compliment to those who have gone before me. I share Mr McLetchie's concerns about the speed with which the legislation is being dealt with. I think that everyone has a great deal of sympathy with the fact that it has to be rushed through, but that excuse cannot be used to justify a slap-dash approach, which is evident in this wide definition. One of the things that has been forgotten is that in the Parliament's infancy members decided that it would listen a lot more to expert evidence and that it would be a fully inclusive Parliament. If that is so, and we have agreement across the board— including that of the Law Society of Scotland, the Mental Welfare Commission for Scotland and, from its own publications, the Government—on the differentiation between personality disorder and mental illness, it seems odd that we are deliberately turning away from that. If we are turning away from that, I need more of an explanation of why it is an advantageous move. It is not good enough to say, \"We want to focus on today and that is the only reason why we are turning away from it.\" If the Government wants to focus, it needs to really focus and to get down to the nuts and bolts of the people it is trying to affect. That is why amendment 28 was lodged. It tries to specify the group of people who are targeted by the amendment and, in that way, tries to protect the rights of others. I listened to what Mr Jackson said with some interest; he made some excellent points. I noted his reservations about the Government's position against the background of his long and distinguished legal career. We are left with one of two positions. Either we can get it wrong and choose the wide and unfocused definition that is before us, in the interest of a catch-all, or we can opt for a more thoughtful and focused definition in the short term and look forward to the committees dealing with the issue in the longer term. As Mr MacAskill said, this is an interim measure. That is the point, so let us make it absolutely focused. If that is the driving force behind the Government, I cannot see its logic in refusing to accept the amendment. We are trying to close loopholes—the Parliament and the Government owe it to the public to ensure that those loopholes are shut—and we must do it together and cleverly. The bill does not meet those criteria. What is the advantage in being deliberately out of date? I cannot see how that moves the process forward one iota. I should have thought that current legislation required current thinking.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will be brief—that is a compliment to those who have gone before me.

I share Mr McLetchie's concerns about the speed with which the legislation is being dealt with. I think that everyone has a great deal of sympathy with the fact that it has to be rushed through, but that excuse cannot be used to justify a slap-dash approach, which is evident in this wide definition.

One of the things that has been forgotten is that in the Parliament's infancy members decided that it would listen a lot more to expert evidence and that it would be a fully inclusive Parliament. If that is so, and we have agreement across the board— including that of the Law Society of Scotland, the Mental Welfare Commission for Scotland and, from its own publications, the Government—on the differentiation between personality disorder and mental illness, it seems odd that we are deliberately turning away from that. If we are turning away from that, I need more of an explanation of why it is an advantageous move. It is not good enough to say, \"We want to focus on today and that is the only reason why we are turning away from it.\"

If the Government wants to focus, it needs to really focus and to get down to the nuts and bolts of the people it is trying to affect. That is why amendment 28 was lodged. It tries to specify the group of people who are targeted by the amendment and, in that way, tries to protect the rights of others.

I listened to what Mr Jackson said with some interest; he made some excellent points. I noted his reservations about the Government's position against the background of his long and distinguished legal career.

We are left with one of two positions. Either we can get it wrong and choose the wide and unfocused definition that is before us, in the interest of a catch-all, or we can opt for a more thoughtful and focused definition in the short term and look forward to the committees dealing with the issue in the longer term.

As Mr MacAskill said, this is an interim measure. That is the point, so let us make it absolutely focused. If that is the driving force behind the Government, I cannot see its logic in refusing to accept the amendment. We are trying to close loopholes—the Parliament and the Government owe it to the public to ensure that those loopholes are shut—and we must do it together and cleverly. The bill does not meet those criteria. What is the advantage in being deliberately out of date? I cannot see how that moves the process forward one iota. I should have thought that current legislation required current thinking.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706858", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Convener: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 352.0, "ContributionID": 706858, "EditedText": "The amendment 30 be agreed to. question is, that Members: No. Dennis Canavan: Yes. The Convener: There will be a division. Members have 30 seconds in which to cast their votes.", "EditedTextHTML": "The amendment 30 be agreed to. question is, that Members: No. Dennis Canavan: Yes. The Convener: There will be a division.

Members have 30 seconds in which to cast their votes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706852", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Convener: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 341.0, "ContributionID": 706852, "EditedText": "The result of the division is as follows: For 46, Against 63, Abstentions 1.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result of the division is as follows: For 46, Against 63, Abstentions 1.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706853", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 343.0, "ContributionID": 706853, "EditedText": "Amendment 28 disagreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment 28 disagreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C706855", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 346.0, "ContributionID": 706855, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706856", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Convener: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 348.0, "ContributionID": 706856, "EditedText": "Does Mr Canavan wish to move amendment 30?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does Mr Canavan wish to move amendment 30?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706862", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Convener: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 358.0, "ContributionID": 706862, "EditedText": "Does Mr Canavan wish to move amendment 31?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does Mr Canavan wish to move amendment 31?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C706863", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 360.0, "ContributionID": 706863, "EditedText": "I move amendment 31.", "EditedTextHTML": "I move amendment 31.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706864", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Convener: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 362.0, "ContributionID": 706864, "EditedText": "amendment 31 be agreed to. The question is, that Members: No. The Convener: There will be a division. Members wishing to vote should do so now.", "EditedTextHTML": "amendment 31 be agreed to. The question is, that Members: No. The Convener: There will be a division.

Members wishing to vote should do so now.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706872", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Convener: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 375.0, "ContributionID": 706872, "EditedText": "The question is, that section 3, as amended, be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "The question is, that section 3, as amended, be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706874", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 378.0, "ContributionID": 706874, "EditedText": "Section 4SHORT TITLE AND COMMENCEMENT", "EditedTextHTML": "Section 4

SHORT TITLE AND COMMENCEMENT

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C706876", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 382.0, "ContributionID": 706876, "EditedText": "There is no definition of medical treatment in the Mental Health (Scotland) Act 1984. As the issue of treatability lies at the heart of the decisions in the Reid and Ruddle cases, the purpose of this amendment is to explore why the Executive does not consider it desirable to incorporate such a definition in the bill when, as we now know from the response to the previous group of amendments, it did consider it necessary to amend the definition of mental disorder. Dr Richard Simpson made a particularly authoritative contribution to this debate. I was fascinated to hear his description of the boundaries between the treatment and management of patients and the way in which in many respects—if I understood him correctly—the boundaries merge. The purpose of this amendment is to seek to make it clear that medical treatment should be held to include \"the provision of support and counselling aimed at preventing any deterioration or relapse in the patient's mental disorder\". It is arguable that had the sheriff been required to consider the issue of treatability in those terms he might have arrived at a different decision in the Ruddle case. If so, it would be desirable for medical treatment to be considered in that wider context in future cases that come before the courts. I move amendment 32.", "EditedTextHTML": "There is no definition of medical treatment in the Mental Health (Scotland) Act 1984. As the issue of treatability lies at the heart of the decisions in the Reid and Ruddle cases, the purpose of this amendment is to explore why the Executive does not consider it desirable to incorporate such a definition in the bill when, as we now know from the response to the previous group of amendments, it did consider it necessary to amend the definition of mental disorder.

Dr Richard Simpson made a particularly authoritative contribution to this debate. I was fascinated to hear his description of the boundaries between the treatment and management of patients and the way in which in many respects—if I understood him correctly—the boundaries merge.

The purpose of this amendment is to seek to make it clear that medical treatment should be held to include

\"the provision of support and counselling aimed at preventing any deterioration or relapse in the patient's mental disorder\".

It is arguable that had the sheriff been required to consider the issue of treatability in those terms he might have arrived at a different decision in the Ruddle case. If so, it would be desirable for medical treatment to be considered in that wider context in future cases that come before the courts.

I move amendment 32.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C706877", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Jim Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 384.0, "ContributionID": 706877, "EditedText": "Mr McLetchie has explained why he wishes a definition of medical treatment to be included in the bill. I can assure him that medical treatment is already defined in section 125 of the Mental Health (Scotland) Act 1984. It \"includes nursing, and also includes care and training under medical supervision\". With regard to the Reid case, which may not have been referred to today but was referred to in our debates last week, the House of Lords gave medical treatment a wide definition. For example, Lord Hope held that \"Medication or other psychiatric treatment which is designed to alleviate or prevent a deterioration of the mental disorder plainly falls within the scope of the expression\". He then went on to say:\"But I think that its scope is wide enough to include other things which are done for either of those two purposes under medical supervision in the State Hospital. It is also wide enough to include treatment which alleviates or prevents a deterioration of the symptoms of the mental disorder, not the disorder itself which gives rise to them.\" That definition encompasses the treatment referred to in the amendment and it is current law. The Millan committee will consider that issue during its review of the 1984 act, and it would be wrong to pre-empt its conclusions in this emergency bill. This amendment is unnecessary, and it could pre-empt some of the Millan committee's work. I hope that given my explanation, Mr McLetchie will feel able to withdraw his amendment.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr McLetchie has explained why he wishes a definition of medical treatment to be included in the bill. I can assure him that medical treatment is already defined in section 125 of the Mental Health (Scotland) Act 1984. It

\"includes nursing, and also includes care and training under medical supervision\".

With regard to the Reid case, which may not have been referred to today but was referred to in our debates last week, the House of Lords gave medical treatment a wide definition. For example, Lord Hope held that

\"Medication or other psychiatric treatment which is designed to alleviate or prevent a deterioration of the mental disorder plainly falls within the scope of the expression\".

He then went on to say:

\"But I think that its scope is wide enough to include other things which are done for either of those two purposes under medical supervision in the State Hospital. It is also wide enough to include treatment which alleviates or prevents a deterioration of the symptoms of the mental disorder, not the disorder itself which gives rise to them.\"

That definition encompasses the treatment referred to in the amendment and it is current law. The Millan committee will consider that issue during its review of the 1984 act, and it would be wrong to pre-empt its conclusions in this emergency bill. This amendment is unnecessary, and it could pre-empt some of the Millan committee's work. I hope that given my explanation, Mr McLetchie will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C706885", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Jim Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 399.0, "ContributionID": 706885, "EditedText": "I am grateful to those who have moved the amendments. In moving amendment 33, Mr Canavan has quite rightly drawn to the attention of the committee the importance of the committees that are chaired by Bruce Millan and Lord MacLean. Lord MacLean's committee is dealing with the sentencing and treatment of serious violent and sexual offenders, including those with personality disorders, and the Millan committee is dealing with the Mental Health (Scotland) Act 1984. Quite clearly—judging by the amount of references to those committees during our debates on this subject—all members are aware of the importance and the relevance of the committees. They are moving ahead with speed but they are examining serious issues seriously. They are aware of the importance that the Executive attaches to their work, and the case that has resulted in this bill provides confirmation of the rightness of establishing the committees. We anticipate that the MacLean committee will report in March 2000 and that the Millan committee, which will take into account MacLean's recommendations, should report in summer 2000. I assure Parliament that we will consider the reports with all possible speed and will give members full opportunity to debate the reports and the Executive's response to them. In those circumstances, it would be premature to have the six-month time limit that Mr Canavan suggests. Almost certainly, the Millan committee will not have reported by then and the Parliament will not have had a chance to make a considered response to the report of the MacLean committee. We are all agreed that those reports will require careful consideration. It would be unwise to deal with the reports in a piecemeal or premature fashion. With regard to amendment 36, I repeat that the bill is an interim measure until Parliament can enact legislation based on the Millan and MacLean reports. That should reassure Mr Canavan that this legislation will not continue for ever and a day, as he said sometimes happens at Westminster. The fact that the Parliament will have to address the issues in the context of the MacLean and Millan committees means that there will be an opportunity for the emergency legislation to be considered. Indeed, committees in this Parliament could take the initiative if they felt that the issue was being swept under the carpet, although I do not suggest for one moment that that would happen. I repeat my earlier assurance that it would be the Executive's intention that the Parliament should debate the reports shortly after they are published. With regard to amendment 34, I can understand why concerns have been expressed. In recent days, there has been discussion with the Lord President of the Court of Session to ensure that new appeal procedures can be put in place quickly so that appeals to the sheriff that are conducted under the provisions of the bill can attract a new right of appeal to the Court of Session. The Lord President has confirmed that there is no bar to the appeal provisions coming into operation and—as a final gesture in committee—I am pleased to accept amendment 34.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful to those who have moved the amendments.

In moving amendment 33, Mr Canavan has quite rightly drawn to the attention of the committee the importance of the committees that are chaired by Bruce Millan and Lord MacLean. Lord MacLean's committee is dealing with the sentencing and treatment of serious violent and sexual offenders, including those with personality disorders, and the Millan committee is dealing with the Mental Health (Scotland) Act 1984. Quite clearly—judging by the amount of references to those committees during our debates on this subject—all members are aware of the importance and the relevance of the committees. They are moving ahead with speed but they are examining serious issues seriously. They are aware of the importance that the Executive attaches to their work, and the case that has resulted in this bill provides confirmation of the rightness of establishing the committees.

We anticipate that the MacLean committee will report in March 2000 and that the Millan committee, which will take into account MacLean's recommendations, should report in summer 2000. I assure Parliament that we will consider the reports with all possible speed and will give

members full opportunity to debate the reports and the Executive's response to them. In those circumstances, it would be premature to have the six-month time limit that Mr Canavan suggests. Almost certainly, the Millan committee will not have reported by then and the Parliament will not have had a chance to make a considered response to the report of the MacLean committee. We are all agreed that those reports will require careful consideration. It would be unwise to deal with the reports in a piecemeal or premature fashion.

With regard to amendment 36, I repeat that the bill is an interim measure until Parliament can enact legislation based on the Millan and MacLean reports. That should reassure Mr Canavan that this legislation will not continue for ever and a day, as he said sometimes happens at Westminster. The fact that the Parliament will have to address the issues in the context of the MacLean and Millan committees means that there will be an opportunity for the emergency legislation to be considered. Indeed, committees in this Parliament could take the initiative if they felt that the issue was being swept under the carpet, although I do not suggest for one moment that that would happen. I repeat my earlier assurance that it would be the Executive's intention that the Parliament should debate the reports shortly after they are published.

With regard to amendment 34, I can understand why concerns have been expressed. In recent days, there has been discussion with the Lord President of the Court of Session to ensure that new appeal procedures can be put in place quickly so that appeals to the sheriff that are conducted under the provisions of the bill can attract a new right of appeal to the Court of Session. The Lord President has confirmed that there is no bar to the appeal provisions coming into operation and—as a final gesture in committee—I am pleased to accept amendment 34.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706886", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Convener: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 401.0, "ContributionID": 706886, "EditedText": "The question is, that amendment 33, in the name of Dennis Canavan, be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "The question is, that amendment 33, in the name of Dennis Canavan, be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706887", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 403.0, "ContributionID": 706887, "EditedText": "Amendment 33 disagreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment 33 disagreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706891", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 410.0, "ContributionID": 706891, "EditedText": "Amendment 34 agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment 34 agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706896", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Convener: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 418.0, "ContributionID": 706896, "EditedText": "The question is, that the long title of the bill be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "The question is, that the long title of the bill be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706897", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 420.0, "ContributionID": 706897, "EditedText": "Long title agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Long title agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C706902", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26761, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 424.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 424.0, "ID": 26761, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 430.0, "ContributionID": 706902, "EditedText": "On a point of order. I draw attention to the fact that the motion should now read that the bill \"as amended\" be passed, as amendments were accepted.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. I draw attention to the fact that the motion should now read that the bill \"as amended\" be passed, as amendments were accepted.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C706905", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26761, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 424.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 424.0, "ID": 26761, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 436.0, "ContributionID": 706905, "EditedText": "I am grateful to Mr Gallie.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful to Mr Gallie.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4515434+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2122E6P19C706907", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26761, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 424.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 424.0, "ID": 26761, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay", "ID": 2122, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lyndsay McIntosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Lyndsay McIntosh (Central Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 442.0, "ContributionID": 706907, "EditedText": "It falls to me to seek a moment of time for reflection—although I am not pre-empting tomorrow's debate—on the whole matter of the legislation that is before us today. There can be no doubt that the Noel Ruddle affair has become the hot potato of the summer. No one wanted it to be so, but the Executive's action, or lack thereof, has forced us to the unfortunate point at which legislation of such a complex and sensitive nature has had to be rushed through as an emergency, with little time for thorough debate and measured consideration. The Conservatives regard the bill as, at best, a temporary expediency, born out of necessity. It is, in other words, a sticking-plaster, and will have to be reviewed once the conclusions of the MacLean and Millan committees are known. It is regrettable that we did not have their detailed input but, unlike our own, their deliberations cannot be rushed. Some areas of the bill are perplexing, but the principal concern is one of public safety. It is with relief that we have heard the justice minister's assurances that public safety concerns were at the forefront of his consideration. With that in mind, we served notice that we were broadly in support of the legislation and reserved the right to move amendments when we had had more time to consider the matter. There have been amendments from all sides of the chamber. Many of the amendments were probing and sought to clarify what was in the minds of the minister and his team of civil servants when they were framing the bill. If ever there was a time when the phrase, \"You can't please all of the people all of the time\" was appropriate, this was it. There were outbursts of unanimity, agreement and, although I hate to use the \"c\" word, consensus, notably among David McLetchie, Gordon Jackson and Kenny MacAskill. I particularly welcomed Richard Simpson's contribution. The distinctions that he drew were illuminating and helpful. The Conservatives offer cautious support to the bill. As we have indicated, we support the enactment of the emergency legislation. We reiterate our concerns, however, about the rush that has accompanied the bill, and hope that it will not have been prejudicial to its content.", "EditedTextHTML": "It falls to me to seek a moment of time for reflection—although I am not pre-empting tomorrow's debate—on the whole matter of the legislation that is before us today.

There can be no doubt that the Noel Ruddle affair has become the hot potato of the summer. No one wanted it to be so, but the Executive's action, or lack thereof, has forced us to the unfortunate point at which legislation of such a complex and sensitive nature has had to be rushed through as an emergency, with little time for thorough debate and measured consideration.

The Conservatives regard the bill as, at best, a temporary expediency, born out of necessity. It is, in other words, a sticking-plaster, and will have to

be reviewed once the conclusions of the MacLean and Millan committees are known. It is regrettable that we did not have their detailed input but, unlike our own, their deliberations cannot be rushed.

Some areas of the bill are perplexing, but the principal concern is one of public safety. It is with relief that we have heard the justice minister's assurances that public safety concerns were at the forefront of his consideration. With that in mind, we served notice that we were broadly in support of the legislation and reserved the right to move amendments when we had had more time to consider the matter.

There have been amendments from all sides of the chamber. Many of the amendments were probing and sought to clarify what was in the minds of the minister and his team of civil servants when they were framing the bill. If ever there was a time when the phrase, \"You can't please all of the people all of the time\" was appropriate, this was it.

There were outbursts of unanimity, agreement and, although I hate to use the \"c\" word, consensus, notably among David McLetchie, Gordon Jackson and Kenny MacAskill. I particularly welcomed Richard Simpson's contribution. The distinctions that he drew were illuminating and helpful.

The Conservatives offer cautious support to the bill. As we have indicated, we support the enactment of the emergency legislation. We reiterate our concerns, however, about the rush that has accompanied the bill, and hope that it will not have been prejudicial to its content.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706910", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26761, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 424.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 424.0, "ID": 26761, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 449.0, "ContributionID": 706910, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4671728+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2133E222P520C706831", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Matheson, Michael", "ID": 2133, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Matheson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Matheson (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 298.0, "ContributionID": 706831, "EditedText": "Section 3 of the bill seeks to widen the definition of mental disorder in the Mental Health (Scotland) Act 1984 to include personality disorder. The 1984 act states that \"‘mental disorder' means mental illness or mental handicap, however caused or manifested\". I believe that the definition in the bill is too wide- ranging and could have unacceptable consequences. In the Parliament's debate last week, members throughout the chamber raised the issue of how to define personality disorder; they were concerned that the bill would classify personality disorder as a mental illness. Unfortunately, ministers failed adequately to deal with those concerns. Amendment 28 would address some of those issues by providing greater clarity in defining personality disorder. In recent years, psychiatric thinking on personality disorders has changed; as a result of that change, the 1984 act is now clearly inadequate. However, the bill fails to take account of the new thinking. That was a concern for Richard Simpson in last week's debate. He stated: \"I have no difficulty with the definition of personality disorder as a mental disorder, but psychiatrists have great difficulty with it being placed in the category of mental illness, as is proposed in the bill.\"—Official Report, 2 September 1999; Vol 1, c 117. I see that Dr Simpson—who is, I understand, a psychiatrist—is here today and can stand by his remarks. The purpose of amendment 28 is to bring the bill into line with the psychiatric thinking that Dr Simpson highlighted last week. I hope that, in the light of his statement, he will join us in agreeing to the amendment. Dr Jim Dyer, for whom I have considerable respect, having been a student in acute psychiatry under him at the Royal Edinburgh hospital, is the director of the Mental Welfare Commission for Scotland. He echoes the concerns about the wide definition of personality disorder in the bill; he, too, wants the bill to be brought into line with current medical thinking. He has gone on record and has written to all members of the Scottish Parliament to indicate his concern on this issue. Given his public statement and his statutory responsibility to highlight such issues to the Scottish Executive and the responsible ministers, I hope that the Executive will recognise that this amendment seeks to address the same concerns as those highlighted by the Mental Welfare Commission for Scotland. Amendment 28 also seeks to focus the bill on those individuals with a particular type of personality disorder who are a marked risk to society. In last week's debate, several members expressed the concern that the bill fails to take account of the fact that the majority of those with such a personality disorder pose no risk to society. Dennis Canavan remarked that if we did not tighten up the bill's definition of personality disorder, this chamber could be rather empty. In my view, it is likely that the press benches will be even emptier. Laughter. I am sure that I will get good copy for that tomorrow. Even the Government agrees that many individuals with a personality disorder pose no risk to society. The Government paper, \"Managing Dangerous People With Severe Personality Disorder\", which was published in July, states that \"the overwhelming majority do not pose a risk to the public and live reasonably ordered, crime free, lives\". The Mental Welfare Commission for Scotland and the Law Society of Scotland have highlighted that point, but the bill fails to make the matter clear. I understand that the commission has written to ministers to inform them of its concerns. The amendment would enhance the bill in three ways. First, it would bring the bill into line with current psychiatric thinking and clarify the view that personality disorder is not a mental illness. Secondly, it would ensure that the bill is precisely focused on those individuals with a personality disorder who pose most risk to society. Thirdly, when an organisation such as the Mental Welfare Commission for Scotland raises concerns about the bill, it should be listened to—the amendment goes some way to addressing those concerns. Jim Wallace made it clear that he had given the Mental Welfare Commission the responsibility to review service provision in the state hospital at Carstairs because it was the appropriate body. The commission, which Iain Gray said knew most about this issue, has expressed its concerns, which is why this amendment has been lodged. I, therefore move amendment 28.", "EditedTextHTML": "Section 3 of the bill seeks to widen the definition of mental disorder in the Mental Health (Scotland) Act 1984 to include personality disorder. The 1984 act states that

\"‘mental disorder' means mental illness or mental handicap, however caused or manifested\".

I believe that the definition in the bill is too wide- ranging and could have unacceptable consequences. In the Parliament's debate last week, members throughout the chamber raised the issue of how to define personality disorder; they were concerned that the bill would classify personality disorder as a mental illness. Unfortunately, ministers failed adequately to deal with those concerns. Amendment 28 would address some of those issues by providing greater clarity in defining personality disorder.

In recent years, psychiatric thinking on personality disorders has changed; as a result of

that change, the 1984 act is now clearly inadequate. However, the bill fails to take account of the new thinking. That was a concern for Richard Simpson in last week's debate. He stated:

\"I have no difficulty with the definition of personality disorder as a mental disorder, but psychiatrists have great difficulty with it being placed in the category of mental illness, as is proposed in the bill.\"—[Official Report, 2 September 1999; Vol 1, c 117.]

I see that Dr Simpson—who is, I understand, a psychiatrist—is here today and can stand by his remarks. The purpose of amendment 28 is to bring the bill into line with the psychiatric thinking that Dr Simpson highlighted last week. I hope that, in the light of his statement, he will join us in agreeing to the amendment.

Dr Jim Dyer, for whom I have considerable respect, having been a student in acute psychiatry under him at the Royal Edinburgh hospital, is the director of the Mental Welfare Commission for Scotland. He echoes the concerns about the wide definition of personality disorder in the bill; he, too, wants the bill to be brought into line with current medical thinking. He has gone on record and has written to all members of the Scottish Parliament to indicate his concern on this issue. Given his public statement and his statutory responsibility to highlight such issues to the Scottish Executive and the responsible ministers, I hope that the Executive will recognise that this amendment seeks to address the same concerns as those highlighted by the Mental Welfare Commission for Scotland.

Amendment 28 also seeks to focus the bill on those individuals with a particular type of personality disorder who are a marked risk to society. In last week's debate, several members expressed the concern that the bill fails to take account of the fact that the majority of those with such a personality disorder pose no risk to society. Dennis Canavan remarked that if we did not tighten up the bill's definition of personality disorder, this chamber could be rather empty. In my view, it is likely that the press benches will be even emptier. [Laughter.] I am sure that I will get good copy for that tomorrow.

Even the Government agrees that many individuals with a personality disorder pose no risk to society. The Government paper, \"Managing Dangerous People With Severe Personality Disorder\", which was published in July, states that

\"the overwhelming majority do not pose a risk to the public and live reasonably ordered, crime free, lives\".

The Mental Welfare Commission for Scotland and the Law Society of Scotland have highlighted that point, but the bill fails to make the matter clear. I understand that the commission has written to ministers to inform them of its concerns.

The amendment would enhance the bill in three ways. First, it would bring the bill into line with current psychiatric thinking and clarify the view that personality disorder is not a mental illness. Secondly, it would ensure that the bill is precisely focused on those individuals with a personality disorder who pose most risk to society. Thirdly, when an organisation such as the Mental Welfare Commission for Scotland raises concerns about the bill, it should be listened to—the amendment goes some way to addressing those concerns.

Jim Wallace made it clear that he had given the Mental Welfare Commission the responsibility to review service provision in the state hospital at Carstairs because it was the appropriate body. The commission, which Iain Gray said knew most about this issue, has expressed its concerns, which is why this amendment has been lodged.

I, therefore move amendment 28.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:44.0221047+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1756E184P464C706720", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Sep 1999", "ID": 4175 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2 ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26759, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 34.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 34.0, "ID": 26759, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Grahame, Christine", "ID": 1756, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Christine Grahame", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Christine Grahame: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 82.0, "ContributionID": 706720, "EditedText": "I have read the sheriff's report carefully. Treatment for Mr Ruddle's personality disorder was available at Broadmoor hospital and he was on the verge of being sent there when he realised that, because he was not receiving any treatment, there was a loophole in the law. Our amendment makes the point that society's right to be protected needs to be balanced against the detainee's right to treatment. Mr McLetchie knows that the point about our amendment is that it will be mandatory for the sheriff to \"take account of the suitability for the patient of the facilities in which continued detention would take place\"— that is, his historic treatment— \"and may, if he considers it appropriate, make an order in connection with the delivery of treatment to the patient.\" The treatment does not have to take place at the patient's unit. For instance, Carstairs might not have the appropriate facilities and the sheriff would be able to take a different course of action. The state is thus obliged to provide the sheriff with sufficient evidence about the patient's historic treatment and about treatment prevailing generally when he considers an appeal. Such evidence was not available to the sheriff in the Ruddle case. He says in his report that the treatments \"have not been made available and the evidence is unsatisfactory as to whether they would now be likely to alleviate or prevent a deterioration in the applicant's condition.\" The sheriff does not say that the treatment was not there, but says that the quality of the Crown's evidence in the case was not good. The state is obliged to provide evidence for the sheriff, to make sure that the right action is being taken for an individual. I think that that raises the issue of the European convention on human rights, which Mr Canavan mentioned. We need to strike a balance between the state's duty to the public and its duty to the individual. If the state takes away an individual's liberty by detaining him or her in a mental hospital, that should place a duty on the state to exhibit on appeal the availability of treatment for that individual. That information should not come out in later evidence, but should be one of the first considerations in a case. It also means that, if such evidence is not exhibited during the first appeal, there should be a further appeal should the sheriff find that such evidence has not been brought. In those circumstances, I suggest that our sensible amendment strengthens the bill and will provide a fair balance between the rights of society and the rights of the detainee.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have read the sheriff's report carefully. Treatment for Mr Ruddle's personality disorder was available at Broadmoor hospital and he was on the verge of being sent there when he realised that, because he was not receiving any treatment, there was a loophole in the law.

Our amendment makes the point that society's right to be protected needs to be balanced against the detainee's right to treatment. Mr McLetchie knows that the point about our amendment is that it will be mandatory for the sheriff to

\"take account of the suitability for the patient of the facilities in which continued detention would take place\"— that is, his historic treatment—

\"and may, if he considers it appropriate, make an order in connection with the delivery of treatment to the patient.\"

The treatment does not have to take place at the patient's unit. For instance, Carstairs might not have the appropriate facilities and the sheriff would be able to take a different course of action.

The state is thus obliged to provide the sheriff with sufficient evidence about the patient's historic treatment and about treatment prevailing generally when he considers an appeal. Such evidence was not available to the sheriff in the Ruddle case. He says in his report that the treatments

\"have not been made available and the evidence is unsatisfactory as to whether they would now be likely to alleviate or prevent a deterioration in the applicant's condition.\"

The sheriff does not say that the treatment was not there, but says that the quality of the Crown's evidence in the case was not good. The state is obliged to provide evidence for the sheriff, to make sure that the right action is being taken for an individual. I think that that raises the issue of the European convention on human rights, which Mr Canavan mentioned. We need to strike a balance between the state's duty to the public and its duty to the individual.

If the state takes away an individual's liberty by detaining him or her in a mental hospital, that should place a duty on the state to exhibit on appeal the availability of treatment for that individual. That information should not come out in later evidence, but should be one of the first considerations in a case. It also means that, if such evidence is not exhibited during the first appeal, there should be a further appeal should the sheriff find that such evidence has not been brought.

In those circumstances, I suggest that our sensible amendment strengthens the bill and will provide a fair balance between the rights of society and the rights of the detainee.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:01:00.1970678+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1756E184P464C706463", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Grahame, Christine", "ID": 1756, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Christine Grahame", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Christine Grahame: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 295.0, "ContributionID": 706463, "EditedText": "I asked two questions of the Lord Advocate: if they are not answered now, will they be answered in writing?", "EditedTextHTML": "I asked two questions of the Lord Advocate: if they are not answered now, will they be answered in writing?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:00:47.4219837+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1756E184P464C706402", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Grahame, Christine", "ID": 1756, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Christine Grahame", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Christine Grahame rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 165.0, "ContributionID": 706402, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:00:34.116328+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706328", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 4.0, "ContributionID": 706328, "EditedText": "The first item of business this morning is a debate on motion S1M-109 in the name of Mr Jim Wallace, which proposes that the Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill be treated as an emergency bill. I remind members that this debate will be followed immediately by a decision on the motion. In fact, decisions will follow all items of business that will be taken this morning in accordance with the business programme that was agreed yesterday. I give notice that the debate will last for one hour and 30 minutes and that the decision will be taken at the end of that period. Members will be expected to be in the chamber for the decision. If there is a vote, the voting period will be the usual 30 seconds. To protect time for the important debates today, there will not be the normal 10-minute notice of votes. As no extra time will be allowed, it is important that members are in the chamber when decisions are made today. The occupants of the chair will allow a wide- ranging debate on motion S1M-109, which is the debate that we are about to have on the need for an emergency bill, but during the second debate, which is on the bill itself, we will strictly apply the rule that the debate will be about the contents of the bill and will not hark back to the events that we are about to discuss. The timings throughout the morning will be four minutes for each speech from the back benches. I call Mr Jim Wallace to speak to and move the motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "The first item of business this morning is a debate on motion S1M-109 in the name of Mr Jim Wallace, which proposes that the Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill be treated as an emergency bill. I remind members that this debate will be followed immediately by a decision on the motion. In fact, decisions will follow all items of business that will be taken this morning in accordance with the business programme that was agreed yesterday. I give notice that the debate will last for one hour and 30 minutes and that the decision will be taken at the end of that period. Members will be expected to be in the chamber for the decision. If there is a vote, the voting period will be the usual 30 seconds. To protect time for the important debates today, there will not be the normal 10-minute notice of votes. As no extra time will be allowed, it is important that members are in the chamber when decisions are made today.

The occupants of the chair will allow a wide- ranging debate on motion S1M-109, which is the debate that we are about to have on the need for an emergency bill, but during the second debate, which is on the bill itself, we will strictly apply the rule that the debate will be about the contents of the bill and will not hark back to the events that we are about to discuss. The timings throughout the morning will be four minutes for each speech from the back benches. I call Mr Jim Wallace to speak to and move the motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C706329", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice (Mr Jim Wallace): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 7.0, "ContributionID": 706329, "EditedText": "On 2 August, Sheriff Douglas Allan reached a decision in Lanark sheriff court on an appeal under sections 63 and 64 of the Mental Health (Scotland) Act 1984 that led to the absolute discharge of Noel Ruddle. That decision exposed a serious flaw in the 1984 act. Until 2 August, Mr Ruddle was one of 144 restricted patients who were detained in the state hospital at Carstairs. Patients there suffer from a range of mental disorders, including depression and mental impairment. Some patients have convictions for grave offences, others have lesser convictions and some have no convictions at all. There is a small group of patients in the state hospital whose release would give rise to serious and enduring concern for public safety. Noel Ruddle was in that category. The facts of Noel Ruddle's case are now well known. He was convicted in 1992 of culpable homicide and sent to the state hospital on a combined hospital and restriction order. In March this year, he appealed to the sheriff against his continuing detention. Scottish Office ministers instructed officials to oppose the appeal on the basis of medical evidence that Noel Ruddle was appropriately detained. Ministers also had regard to the broad definition of treatability that the House of Lords had set out in a judgment in December 1998 in the case of Alexander Reid v the Secretary of State for Scotland. At hearings in April this year, the sheriff considered reports from forensic psychiatrists. Those reports agreed, by and large, that Ruddle was mentally disordered and that he presented a risk to the public. They disagreed on whether he was being treated in a way that alleviated his condition or stopped it deteriorating. On 2 August, in a long and considered judgment, the sheriff found that Noel Ruddle was not in receipt of any treatment that was capable of benefiting his mental disorder. The sheriff was not permitted by the law as it stood to have regard to the issue of public protection so, under the law as it relates to people with personality disorders, Ruddle could not be further detained. Ministers urgently considered whether there were any steps that could be taken to keep Mr Ruddle in the state hospital, but the law provided no help. There was no right of appeal. The sheriff's judgment was combed with a view to judicial review, but the unequivocal legal advice, which ministers accepted, was that such a step offered no prospect of continuing Noel Ruddle's detention. The stark truth is that once Sheriff Allan had decided that Ruddle was no longer detainable, no other legal restraint could have been applied: not an interim interdict to continue his detention; not a civil power to section him; not a conditional discharge. To suggest otherwise is just wishful thinking, misunderstanding or, conceivably, political posturing. It would be equally wrong to suggest that leaving the law in such a state was acceptable. The only way to guarantee public safety in future was to change the law. On 2 August, urgent consideration of emergency legislation was instructed. On 4 August, I announced that we would bring forward emergency legislation to plug the loophole in the Mental Health (Scotland) Act 1984, and that we would aim to do so shortly after Parliament's return from the summer recess. We never made any secret of the difficulties and we did not underestimate the challenge, but never did I or the Executive waver from that aim. It was our objective, it remained our objective and today we are delivering. We have been criticised for failing to plug the Ruddle loophole before it appeared. That argument is fanciful. It is true that the case of Alexander Reid raised the possible argument that someone might be released from detention if they were not treatable, but it must be remembered that the secretary of state won that and a subsequent case. Moreover, the House of Lords, in its ruling on Reid, gave a very wide definition of treatment. In the Ruddle case, the sheriff decided on the basis of the evidence before him that Ruddle's position fell outside even that wide definition. It was only then that the loophole and its precise nature were exposed. Our actions since then have been aimed at closing the loophole as soon as possible and, more important, before any other patients could avail themselves of it. This legislation does that. The Reid judgment made it clear that the law relating to offenders with personality disorders needed fundamental review. That is why the Government set up the MacLean committee within weeks of the Reid judgment and why we have made a commitment to comprehensive legislation once the MacLean and Millan committees have reported. Noel Ruddle's abrupt and unconditional release must concern us all. We stand ready to act and seek Parliament's help today, in the interests of public safety, to plug the loophole before personality-disordered patients in a similar position follow him. The legislation that we seek today has been prepared urgently, but with great care, to tackle the loophole that allowed Noel Ruddle's discharge. The legislation will put public protection at the heart of the decisions that sheriffs take in considering appeals for absolute discharge and will allow ministers to appeal against decisions when, in the ministers' view, public safety concerns have not been adequately dealt with. Other steps are to clarify the importance of public safety in ministers' decisions on restricted patients and to include personality disorders in the statutory definition of mental disorder. We want those powers to be in place for current and future appeals. It is intended that the new test will come into effect for any appeals that are heard after 1 September. As you are aware, Sir David, bills in the Scottish Parliament must comply with the articles of the European convention on human rights; we have framed the bill with that in mind. Acting on independent legal advice, you, as Presiding Officer, have sanctioned the introduction of the bill as a competent measure. This emergency legislation has not been the Executive's only response to the Ruddle judgment. At our request, the Mental Welfare Commission for Scotland is examining aspects of care and treatment in Mr Ruddle's case and in similar cases. The commission is focusing on psychological interventions that might have been considered appropriate, and will report by the end of the year. As I have said, the MacLean and Millan committees are working to modernise and improve our legal framework, and are consulting widely on the steps we should take. In the first months of next year, we should have advice on the sentencing of serious offenders with personality disorders. By next summer, that will be followed by comprehensive proposals to modernise Scotland's mental health legislation. I am sure that I speak for the Parliament when I say that I am grateful to Lord MacLean and to Bruce Millan for leading this important work. That is why I have made it clear that I consider today's emergency legislation to be an interim measure. I promise that full and well-conceived legislative proposals will be presented during this parliamentary session.", "EditedTextHTML": "On 2 August, Sheriff Douglas Allan reached a decision in Lanark sheriff court on an appeal under sections 63 and 64 of the Mental Health (Scotland) Act 1984 that led to the absolute discharge of Noel Ruddle.

That decision exposed a serious flaw in the 1984 act. Until 2 August, Mr Ruddle was one of 144 restricted patients who were detained in the state hospital at Carstairs. Patients there suffer from a range of mental disorders, including depression and mental impairment. Some patients have convictions for grave offences, others have lesser convictions and some have no convictions at all. There is a small group of patients in the state hospital whose release would give rise to serious and enduring concern for public safety. Noel Ruddle was in that category.

The facts of Noel Ruddle's case are now well known. He was convicted in 1992 of culpable homicide and sent to the state hospital on a combined hospital and restriction order. In March this year, he appealed to the sheriff against his continuing detention. Scottish Office ministers instructed officials to oppose the appeal on the basis of medical evidence that Noel Ruddle was appropriately detained. Ministers also had regard to the broad definition of treatability that the House of Lords had set out in a judgment in December 1998 in the case of Alexander Reid v the Secretary of State for Scotland.

At hearings in April this year, the sheriff considered reports from forensic psychiatrists. Those reports agreed, by and large, that Ruddle was mentally disordered and that he presented a risk to the public. They disagreed on whether he was being treated in a way that alleviated his condition or stopped it deteriorating.

On 2 August, in a long and considered judgment, the sheriff found that Noel Ruddle was not in receipt of any treatment that was capable of benefiting his mental disorder. The sheriff was not permitted by the law as it stood to have regard to the issue of public protection so, under the law as it relates to people with personality disorders, Ruddle could not be further detained.

Ministers urgently considered whether there were any steps that could be taken to keep Mr Ruddle in the state hospital, but the law provided no help. There was no right of appeal. The sheriff's judgment was combed with a view to judicial review, but the unequivocal legal advice, which ministers accepted, was that such a step offered no prospect of continuing Noel Ruddle's detention.

The stark truth is that once Sheriff Allan had decided that Ruddle was no longer detainable, no other legal restraint could have been applied: not an interim interdict to continue his detention; not a civil power to section him; not a conditional discharge. To suggest otherwise is just wishful thinking, misunderstanding or, conceivably, political posturing.

It would be equally wrong to suggest that leaving the law in such a state was acceptable. The only way to guarantee public safety in future was to change the law.

On 2 August, urgent consideration of emergency legislation was instructed. On 4 August, I announced that we would bring forward emergency legislation to plug the loophole in the Mental Health (Scotland) Act 1984, and that we

would aim to do so shortly after Parliament's return from the summer recess. We never made any secret of the difficulties and we did not underestimate the challenge, but never did I or the Executive waver from that aim. It was our objective, it remained our objective and today we are delivering.

We have been criticised for failing to plug the Ruddle loophole before it appeared. That argument is fanciful. It is true that the case of Alexander Reid raised the possible argument that someone might be released from detention if they were not treatable, but it must be remembered that the secretary of state won that and a subsequent case. Moreover, the House of Lords, in its ruling on Reid, gave a very wide definition of treatment. In the Ruddle case, the sheriff decided on the basis of the evidence before him that Ruddle's position fell outside even that wide definition. It was only then that the loophole and its precise nature were exposed. Our actions since then have been aimed at closing the loophole as soon as possible and, more important, before any other patients could avail themselves of it. This legislation does that.

The Reid judgment made it clear that the law relating to offenders with personality disorders needed fundamental review. That is why the Government set up the MacLean committee within weeks of the Reid judgment and why we have made a commitment to comprehensive legislation once the MacLean and Millan committees have reported.

Noel Ruddle's abrupt and unconditional release must concern us all. We stand ready to act and seek Parliament's help today, in the interests of public safety, to plug the loophole before personality-disordered patients in a similar position follow him.

The legislation that we seek today has been prepared urgently, but with great care, to tackle the loophole that allowed Noel Ruddle's discharge. The legislation will put public protection at the heart of the decisions that sheriffs take in considering appeals for absolute discharge and will allow ministers to appeal against decisions when, in the ministers' view, public safety concerns have not been adequately dealt with. Other steps are to clarify the importance of public safety in ministers' decisions on restricted patients and to include personality disorders in the statutory definition of mental disorder. We want those powers to be in place for current and future appeals. It is intended that the new test will come into effect for any appeals that are heard after 1 September.

As you are aware, Sir David, bills in the Scottish Parliament must comply with the articles of the European convention on human rights; we have framed the bill with that in mind. Acting on independent legal advice, you, as Presiding Officer, have sanctioned the introduction of the bill as a competent measure.

This emergency legislation has not been the Executive's only response to the Ruddle judgment. At our request, the Mental Welfare Commission for Scotland is examining aspects of care and treatment in Mr Ruddle's case and in similar cases. The commission is focusing on psychological interventions that might have been considered appropriate, and will report by the end of the year.

As I have said, the MacLean and Millan committees are working to modernise and improve our legal framework, and are consulting widely on the steps we should take.

In the first months of next year, we should have advice on the sentencing of serious offenders with personality disorders. By next summer, that will be followed by comprehensive proposals to modernise Scotland's mental health legislation. I am sure that I speak for the Parliament when I say that I am grateful to Lord MacLean and to Bruce Millan for leading this important work. That is why I have made it clear that I consider today's emergency legislation to be an interim measure. I promise that full and well-conceived legislative proposals will be presented during this parliamentary session.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1821E295P538C706330", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Mrs Margaret", "ID": 1821, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Moray" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Margaret Ewing (Moray) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 9.0, "ContributionID": 706330, "EditedText": "We all welcomed the establishment of the Millan and MacLean committees. In view of the nature of the legislation, will the minister guarantee that those committees, having been established by Westminster, will report to the Scottish Parliament? Will he also guarantee that all members will have an opportunity to examine their recommendations in detail?", "EditedTextHTML": "We all welcomed the establishment of the Millan and MacLean committees. In view of the nature of the legislation, will the minister guarantee that those committees, having been established by Westminster, will report to the Scottish Parliament? Will he also guarantee that all members will have an opportunity to examine their recommendations in detail?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C706331", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 11.0, "ContributionID": 706331, "EditedText": "I am grateful for that intervention because it allows me to confirm that both those committees will report to this Parliament. Their reports will be the subject of considerable consultation in this Parliament and its committees. Through that process, the Parliament will discharge its responsibility in what is recognised to be a difficult but important sphere of public interest and concern. We await those proposals and we look forward to the subsequent legislation, but today's legislation is no less vital; in the interests of public safety, we had to find a quicker way of plugging the loophole exposed by the Ruddle case. That is why we are pressing colleagues to agree to treat this bill as emergency legislation. Following Noel Ruddle's release, there is a risk that, without this bill, a small number of mentally ill patients, some of whom have committed grave offences and are still considered dangerous, could be freed. That is why it is crucial that members support this measure. Parliament must act now to change the law and to close off this serious threat to public safety in Scotland. I move,That the Parliament agrees that the Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill be treated as an Emergency Bill.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful for that intervention because it allows me to confirm that both those committees will report to this Parliament. Their reports will be the subject of considerable consultation in this Parliament and its committees. Through that process, the Parliament will discharge its responsibility in what is recognised to be a difficult but important sphere of public interest and concern.

We await those proposals and we look forward to the subsequent legislation, but today's legislation is no less vital; in the interests of public safety, we had to find a quicker way of plugging the loophole exposed by the Ruddle case. That is why we are pressing colleagues to agree to treat this bill as emergency legislation.

Following Noel Ruddle's release, there is a risk that, without this bill, a small number of mentally ill patients, some of whom have committed grave

offences and are still considered dangerous, could be freed. That is why it is crucial that members support this measure. Parliament must act now to change the law and to close off this serious threat to public safety in Scotland.

I move,

That the Parliament agrees that the Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill be treated as an Emergency Bill.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C706338", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 26.0, "ContributionID": 706338, "EditedText": "It is true that I was not there.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is true that I was not there.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1863E284P532C706342", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Cunningham, Roseanna", "ID": 1863, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Perth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Roseanna Cunningham", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Roseanna Cunningham: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 34.0, "ContributionID": 706342, "EditedText": "No, I am taking no more interventions; I have limited time. We should not ignore the figure skulking in the long grass. It is the First Minister—who is not here—hoping that no one will spot him or his involvement in the whole affair leading up to 1999. I do not think that he should be let off quite so easily. He certainly cannot pretend that he was not well warned of the effect that the release would have on public opinion and confidence. A previous high-profile case—mentioned by the Minister for Justice and similar in its facts—had generated major publicity. The Reid case was covered extensively by the press after the sheriff court decision in 1997 and again in 1998. Indeed, it led to a front page Daily Record headline on 23 August 1997: \"Madness\". Madness indeed. Let us consider the Reid case, which both ministers have regularly cited in their own defence.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I am taking no more interventions; I have limited time.

We should not ignore the figure skulking in the long grass. It is the First Minister—who is not here—hoping that no one will spot him or his involvement in the whole affair leading up to 1999. I do not think that he should be let off quite so easily. He certainly cannot pretend that he was not well warned of the effect that the release would have on public opinion and confidence. A previous high-profile case—mentioned by the Minister for Justice and similar in its facts—had generated major publicity. The Reid case was covered extensively by the press after the sheriff court decision in 1997 and again in 1998. Indeed, it led to a front page Daily Record headline on 23 August 1997: \"Madness\". Madness indeed.

Let us consider the Reid case, which both ministers have regularly cited in their own defence.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706344", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 38.0, "ContributionID": 706344, "EditedText": "The minister is in her last minute now. Laughter. I am sorry, I meant to say that the member is in her last minute, so interventions cannot be taken.", "EditedTextHTML": "The minister is in her last minute now. [Laughter.] I am sorry, I meant to say that the member is in her last minute, so interventions cannot be taken.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C706346", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie (Lothians) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 43.0, "ContributionID": 706346, "EditedText": "Thank you, Mr Presiding Officer.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you, Mr Presiding Officer.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C706360", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 71.0, "ContributionID": 706360, "EditedText": "If I may have an extension, I will let Mr Gray clarify things.", "EditedTextHTML": "If I may have an extension, I will let Mr Gray clarify things.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C706352", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 55.0, "ContributionID": 706352, "EditedText": "I believe that it is correct. The minister told the committee on Tuesday that he was advised of the background to the case and the pending decision on 14 July. That is in the Official Report.", "EditedTextHTML": "I believe that it is correct. The minister told the committee on Tuesday that he was advised of the background to the case and the pending decision on 14 July. That is in the Official Report.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C706353", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 57.0, "ContributionID": 706353, "EditedText": "I want to clarify that point. I was advised of the circumstances of the case and that there was a decision pending. I was not advised of the nature of the decision. Obviously that was not known until the sheriff's judgment.", "EditedTextHTML": "I want to clarify that point. I was advised of the circumstances of the case and that there was a decision pending. I was not advised of the nature of the decision. Obviously that was not known until the sheriff's judgment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2033E106P139C706361", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gray, Iain", "ID": 2033, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Pentlands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Iain Gray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Iain Gray: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 73.0, "ContributionID": 706361, "EditedText": "I want to clarify the points that Mr McLetchie made. Does he not agree that—at the meeting to which he referred—we discussed clearly with him and Ms Cunningham the possibility of laying emergency legislation before the Parliament immediately on its return after the recess, which is what we are doing? There followed a discussion on how long that process would take. We now know that it will take a week, but that was not clear at the time of the meeting. We said that we would bring the legislation to the Parliament when it returned. Ms Cunningham's response, as I recall, was that the Scottish National party had never asked for Parliament to be recalled. Is not that Mr McLetchie's recollection of the meeting?", "EditedTextHTML": "I want to clarify the points that Mr McLetchie made. Does he not agree that—at the meeting to which he referred—we discussed clearly with him and Ms Cunningham the possibility of laying emergency legislation before the Parliament immediately on its return after the recess, which is what we are doing? There followed a discussion on how long that process would take. We now know that it will take a week, but that was not clear at the time of the meeting. We said that we would bring the legislation to the Parliament when it returned. Ms Cunningham's response, as I recall, was that the Scottish National party had never asked for Parliament to be recalled. Is not that Mr McLetchie's recollection of the meeting?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C706358", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 67.0, "ContributionID": 706358, "EditedText": "I beg your pardon, Mr Presiding Officer. I inadvertently said \"you\".", "EditedTextHTML": "I beg your pardon, Mr Presiding Officer. I inadvertently said \"you\".

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C706364", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 79.0, "ContributionID": 706364, "EditedText": "No thank you—I have just answered that one fully. We now have an accelerated timetable because of the public outcry and the political pressure that has been brought to bear. When it was put to its first test, the Scottish Executive flunked the examination. The report card for this lot will read: leadership, failed; openness, failed; responsiveness, failed. However, of all those failures, it is the failure of political leadership and the failure to pull out all the stops to protect the safety of the public that are by far the most damning. Instead of a minister being in charge of his department and offering decisive leadership in the public interest, we have a minister being run by his department, meekly accepting the advice proffered and being unable to see the big picture. The Ruddle affair is a nightmarish Scottish version of \"Yes Minister\", with one crucial difference—in our case it is exit Jim Hacker, enter Jim Wallace.The failure of the Executive has brought us to this pass. As an Opposition party, we would compound that failure if we did not hold it to account in this Parliament. However, we have a wider responsibility in the circumstances that have arisen: to support the necessary corrective legislation in principle, and to scrutinise its effectiveness to do the job for which it is intended. That is a responsibility that we willingly shoulder, and that is why we will support the minister's motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "No thank you—I have just answered that one fully.

We now have an accelerated timetable because of the public outcry and the political pressure that has been brought to bear. When it was put to its first test, the Scottish Executive flunked the examination. The report card for this lot will read: leadership, failed; openness, failed; responsiveness, failed. However, of all those failures, it is the failure of political leadership and the failure to pull out all the stops to protect the safety of the public that are by far the most damning. Instead of a minister being in charge of his department and offering decisive leadership in the public interest, we have a minister being run by his department, meekly accepting the advice proffered and being unable to see the big picture. The Ruddle affair is a nightmarish Scottish version of \"Yes Minister\", with one crucial difference—in

our case it is exit Jim Hacker, enter Jim Wallace.

The failure of the Executive has brought us to this pass. As an Opposition party, we would compound that failure if we did not hold it to account in this Parliament. However, we have a wider responsibility in the circumstances that have arisen: to support the necessary corrective legislation in principle, and to scrutinise its effectiveness to do the job for which it is intended. That is a responsibility that we willingly shoulder, and that is why we will support the minister's motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706369", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 90.0, "ContributionID": 706369, "EditedText": "Just a minute, Mr McLetchie. Your microphone is not working.", "EditedTextHTML": "Just a minute, Mr McLetchie. Your microphone is not working.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C706376", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan (Falkirk West): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 106.0, "ContributionID": 706376, "EditedText": "I am concerned about certain aspects of the emergency legislation. Much has been said and written recently about our Parliament getting off to a bad start; I remember that, back in May when we first convened after the election, I expressed regret and thought it rather ironic that our first vote was held by means of a secret ballot. It is also ironic that, if we agree to the motion, our first bill is to be passed by emergency procedure. I understand the Executive's desire to get the legislation on the statute book as soon as possible, but I am concerned about the lack of opportunity for adequate scrutiny of the bill. On Tuesday at half-past 1, I went along to the document supply centre and then to the chamber office to get a copy of the bill, only to be told that it was not available. I did not manage to get a copy until yesterday—I suspect that most MSPs were in the same boat. The new Scottish Parliament was supposed to herald a new era of open democracy, including more opportunities for pre-legislative scrutiny, which we hoped would lead to better-quality legislation. Yesterday, the business manager, Mr McCabe, told us that the bill had been produced after intensive discussion and preparation, but he failed to tell us with whom that discussion had taken place. As it is part of the business manager's job to ensure that the Parliament has adequate time to scrutinise legislation, it is ironic that Mr McCabe—who has been issuing press statements all week telling us how we should be doing our job—seems to be failing in that aspect of his job. I do not think that the time available to scrutinise the legislation is by any means adequate.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am concerned about certain aspects of the emergency legislation. Much has been said and written recently about our Parliament getting off to a bad start; I remember that, back in May when we first convened after the election, I expressed regret and thought it rather ironic that our first vote was held by means of a secret ballot. It is also ironic that, if we agree to the motion, our first bill is to be passed by emergency procedure.

I understand the Executive's desire to get the legislation on the statute book as soon as possible, but I am concerned about the lack of opportunity for adequate scrutiny of the bill. On

Tuesday at half-past 1, I went along to the document supply centre and then to the chamber office to get a copy of the bill, only to be told that it was not available. I did not manage to get a copy until yesterday—I suspect that most MSPs were in the same boat.

The new Scottish Parliament was supposed to herald a new era of open democracy, including more opportunities for pre-legislative scrutiny, which we hoped would lead to better-quality legislation. Yesterday, the business manager, Mr McCabe, told us that the bill had been produced after intensive discussion and preparation, but he failed to tell us with whom that discussion had taken place. As it is part of the business manager's job to ensure that the Parliament has adequate time to scrutinise legislation, it is ironic that Mr McCabe—who has been issuing press statements all week telling us how we should be doing our job—seems to be failing in that aspect of his job. I do not think that the time available to scrutinise the legislation is by any means adequate.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1803E78P291C706388", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gillon, Karen", "ID": 1803, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Clydesdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Karen Gillon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Karen Gillon (Clydesdale) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 132.0, "ContributionID": 706388, "EditedText": "I will keep my comments brief. I am the constituency MSP for the state hospital in Carstairs and welcome the opportunity to participate in this debate. I thank the ministers for keeping me informed of developments. As is obvious, people who work and live in and around the state hospital have considerable concerns about this case and the implications for future cases. Some of the reactionary, inaccurate comments made by Opposition members in the press during the summer did nothing to help those people or to progress the debate. My concern now is that the legislation that this Parliament introduces should not only be in the best interests of the public, but give patients in the state hospital the care that they need and deserve; that balance is very important. In the immediate aftermath of Mr Ruddle's release, I went to the state hospital with my colleague, Jimmy Hood MP, to meet the staff and patients. Morale among the staff was very low and people felt that they were being blamed. We need to examine that situation. The staff work hard in very difficult circumstances and, if anything comes out of this debate, it should be our support for staff who work in places such as the state hospital and how we can help them in their jobs. I was concerned by press speculation that up to 15 other people were about to be released immediately into the vicinity of Carstairs or into the wider Scottish community. I had asked ministers about that and they had assured me that no cases were pending at that time, which was on the Monday or Tuesday of that week. During my visit, I asked the staff about other releases. They gave me a categorical assurance that the nature of the pending appeal was not the same as that of Mr Ruddle's and that different psychiatric help was needed by the patient in question. They said that the case was not the same and that it would be almost impossible for the individual concerned to exploit the loophole. Mr McLetchie is shaking his head, but I spoke to those members of staff and they are the experts.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will keep my comments brief. I am the constituency MSP for the state hospital in Carstairs and welcome the opportunity to participate in this debate. I thank the ministers for keeping me informed of developments.

As is obvious, people who work and live in and around the state hospital have considerable concerns about this case and the implications for future cases. Some of the reactionary, inaccurate comments made by Opposition members in the press during the summer did nothing to help those people or to progress the debate.

My concern now is that the legislation that this Parliament introduces should not only be in the best interests of the public, but give patients in the state hospital the care that they need and deserve; that balance is very important.

In the immediate aftermath of Mr Ruddle's release, I went to the state hospital with my colleague, Jimmy Hood MP, to meet the staff and patients. Morale among the staff was very low and people felt that they were being blamed. We need to examine that situation. The staff work hard in very difficult circumstances and, if anything comes out of this debate, it should be our support for staff who work in places such as the state hospital and how we can help them in their jobs.

I was concerned by press speculation that up to 15 other people were about to be released immediately into the vicinity of Carstairs or into the wider Scottish community. I had asked ministers about that and they had assured me that no cases were pending at that time, which was on the Monday or Tuesday of that week. During my visit, I asked the staff about other releases. They gave me a categorical assurance that the nature of the pending appeal was not the same as that of Mr Ruddle's and that different psychiatric help was needed by the patient in question. They said that the case was not the same and that it would be

almost impossible for the individual concerned to exploit the loophole. Mr McLetchie is shaking his head, but I spoke to those members of staff and they are the experts.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C706391", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 138.0, "ContributionID": 706391, "EditedText": "On a point of order, Presiding Officer. For clarification, the previous speaker commented that interventions are a waste of time. Are not interventions for the good of everyone? They are part of, and can add to, a normal debate.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order, Presiding Officer. For clarification, the previous speaker commented that interventions are a waste of time. Are not interventions for the good of everyone? They are part of, and can add to, a normal debate.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1752E75P296C706393", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jamieson, Cathy", "ID": 1752, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Cathy Jamieson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Cathy Jamieson (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 143.0, "ContributionID": 706393, "EditedText": "The public's expectations for this Parliament are high. What we have read in the press during the past few weeks has been very unhelpful. It is particularly unhelpful that today's debate has been, to some extent, a ritual slaggingoff, with people determined to have a go at individuals rather than attempting to focus on what needs to be done in terms of closing the loophole in the law. I hope that that ritual slanging match is now out of the way and that we can begin to focus on the issues. I have for many years worked with people who have particular mental illnesses, who have been described as having personality disorders and who have other special needs. I am acutely aware of the human rights implications of this issue and of the implications for resources and the provision of treatment and support for those people. I have a few points to make about why we need to deal with this issue as an emergency and about what we need to discuss in the rest of the debate. The real issue exposed by this loophole is public safety. Earlier, the Presiding Officer mentioned children; we should be aware of the fact that we have legislation that allows a public safety test to be applied when deciding whether to keep children in secure accommodation. I do not see why adults should be treated any differently. That is the point at issue this morning. Common sense says that the loophole should be closed and that the First Minister should have a method of appealing against the decision of a sheriff where that decision is clearly not in the public interest. Common sense says that we need a definition of mental illness, but not so that we can sweep people with personality disorders— including some of us here—off the streets and lock them up. It is not proposed that the bill should do that—I would certainly not be in favour of it if it did. What is proposed is that we should deal with the current situation of a number of people and a loophole in a particular piece of the law. The nature of an emergency is that we have to act quickly. I share some of Dennis's views about time for scrutiny, but if we are not seen to be taking some action we could be open to further criticism. Common sense says that we should get on with debating the principles of the bill and ensuring that it gets on to the statute book as quickly as possible. There will be checks and balances to consider and we have committees and other people who will deal with them. The bill will solve a particular problem on a particular issue. Let us get on with that and give the public some assurance that we are putting their safety first.", "EditedTextHTML": "The public's expectations for this Parliament are high. What we have read in the press during the past few weeks has been very unhelpful. It is particularly unhelpful that today's debate has been, to some extent, a ritual slaggingoff, with people determined to have a go at individuals rather than attempting to focus on what needs to be done in terms of closing the loophole in the law. I hope that that ritual slanging match is now out of the way and that we can begin to focus on the issues.

I have for many years worked with people who have particular mental illnesses, who have been described as having personality disorders and who have other special needs. I am acutely aware of the human rights implications of this issue and of the implications for resources and the provision of treatment and support for those people.

I have a few points to make about why we need to deal with this issue as an emergency and about what we need to discuss in the rest of the debate. The real issue exposed by this loophole is public safety. Earlier, the Presiding Officer mentioned children; we should be aware of the fact that we have legislation that allows a public safety test to be applied when deciding whether to keep children in secure accommodation. I do not see why adults should be treated any differently. That is the point at issue this morning.

Common sense says that the loophole should be closed and that the First Minister should have a method of appealing against the decision of a sheriff where that decision is clearly not in the public interest. Common sense says that we need a definition of mental illness, but not so that we can sweep people with personality disorders— including some of us here—off the streets and lock them up. It is not proposed that the bill should do that—I would certainly not be in favour of it if it did. What is proposed is that we should deal with the current situation of a number of people and a loophole in a particular piece of the law.

The nature of an emergency is that we have to act quickly. I share some of Dennis's views about time for scrutiny, but if we are not seen to be taking some action we could be open to further criticism. Common sense says that we should get on with debating the principles of the bill and ensuring that it gets on to the statute book as quickly as possible. There will be checks and balances to consider and we have committees and other people who will deal with them. The bill will solve a particular problem on a particular issue. Let us get on with that and give the public some assurance that we are putting their safety first.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2112E192P495C706396", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacAskill, Kenny", "ID": 2112, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenny MacAskill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Kenny MacAskill (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 152.0, "ContributionID": 706396, "EditedText": "I wish to make it quite clear to Cathy Jamieson that the debate on the law is the next debate—the Presiding Officer made that clear. This debate examines how we got into this mess, and why we need emergency legislation. It is perfectly legitimate for members to run through the Ruddle case in particular, and to analyse what happened and who is at fault. Listening to this debate, everyone is wrang but our Jim. Who has been put in the frame, as the lawyers would say—Noel Ruddle, smart-arse lawyers and legal loopholes? Let us examine the situation. It is quite clear that Noel Ruddle was an evil man, but he is entitled to look after his own best interests. Others were elected to look after the best interests of the public, and they failed. Smartarse lawyers just used the law to win Mr Ruddle's case. You, Mr Wallace, were represented and you have lawyers—two are sitting next to you. Ruddle's lawyers won, your lawyers lost and the public in Scotland and elsewhere paid the price. A legal loophole? This matter has been discussed and debated for 40 years, and it was debated in 1984 when the Mental Health (Scotland) Act was debated. It is not a legal loophole—it is a huge abyss that has been staring us in the face, in terms of jurisprudential and psychiatric discussion.", "EditedTextHTML": "I wish to make it quite clear to Cathy Jamieson that the debate on the law is the next debate—the Presiding Officer made that clear. This debate examines how we got into this mess, and why we need emergency legislation. It is perfectly legitimate for members to run through the Ruddle case in particular, and to analyse what happened and who is at fault.

Listening to this debate, everyone is wrang but our Jim. Who has been put in the frame, as the lawyers would say—Noel Ruddle, smart-arse lawyers and legal loopholes? Let us examine the situation.

It is quite clear that Noel Ruddle was an evil man, but he is entitled to look after his own best interests. Others were elected to look after the best interests of the public, and they failed. Smartarse lawyers just used the law to win Mr Ruddle's case. You, Mr Wallace, were represented and you have lawyers—two are sitting next to you. Ruddle's lawyers won, your lawyers lost and the public in Scotland and elsewhere paid the price. A legal loophole? This matter has been discussed and debated for 40 years, and it was debated in 1984 when the Mental Health (Scotland) Act was debated. It is not a legal loophole—it is a huge abyss that has been staring us in the face, in terms of jurisprudential and psychiatric discussion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1863E284P532C706404", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Cunningham, Roseanna", "ID": 1863, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Perth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Roseanna Cunningham", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Roseanna Cunningham: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 169.0, "ContributionID": 706404, "EditedText": "On a point of order, Mr Presiding Officer. I would like to point out that the Lord Advocate—presumably an independent law officer—appears to be making a highly politically partisan speech. Applause. I appreciate the difficult position that the Lord Advocate is in, but is it entirely correct for someone who is a law officer, and therefore presumably independent, to make such a speech?", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order, Mr Presiding Officer. I would like to point out that the Lord Advocate—presumably an independent law officer—appears to be making a highly politically partisan speech. [Applause.] I appreciate the difficult position that the Lord Advocate is in, but is it entirely correct for someone who is a law officer, and therefore presumably independent, to make such a speech?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706405", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 171.0, "ContributionID": 706405, "EditedText": "That is a point of argument; it is not a point of order for me.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is a point of argument; it is not a point of order for me.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1876E194P490C706408", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Marwick, Tricia", "ID": 1876, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tricia Marwick", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tricia Marwick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 177.0, "ContributionID": 706408, "EditedText": "On a point of order, Mr Presiding Officer. The Lord Advocate is clearly making a political speech. He is here as an independent—", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order, Mr Presiding Officer. The Lord Advocate is clearly making a political speech. He is here as an independent—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C706415", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 191.0, "ContributionID": 706415, "EditedText": "As you perfectly well know, that was not the question. That is an assessment of the prospects of success.", "EditedTextHTML": "As you perfectly well know, that was not the question. That is an assessment of the prospects of success.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706419", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Lord Advocate", "SpeakerName": "Andrew Hardie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Lord Advocate: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 199.0, "ContributionID": 706419, "EditedText": "In view of the urgency of the matter, I invite members to vote for the motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "In view of the urgency of the matter, I invite members to vote for the motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706421", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 203.0, "ContributionID": 706421, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706425", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 208.0, "ContributionID": 706425, "EditedText": "Stage 1 – debate on Thursday 2 September 1999 to last 1 hour 30 minutes;", "EditedTextHTML": "Stage 1 – debate on Thursday 2 September 1999 to last 1 hour 30 minutes;

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706426", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 209.0, "ContributionID": 706426, "EditedText": "Stages 2 and 3 – debates on Wednesday 8 September to last 3 hours 20 minutes—Mr McCabe.", "EditedTextHTML": "Stages 2 and 3 – debates on Wednesday 8 September to last 3 hours 20 minutes—[Mr McCabe.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706429", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 214.0, "ContributionID": 706429, "EditedText": "There will be a division. Voting starts now.", "EditedTextHTML": "There will be a division. Voting starts now.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706430", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 216.0, "ContributionID": 706430, "EditedText": "There are no lights on the consoles.", "EditedTextHTML": "There are no lights on the consoles.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706431", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 218.0, "ContributionID": 706431, "EditedText": "Hold it for a moment. Can we get the voting system up? I will wait a minute to see if we can get the machinery working; if not, we will have to have a roll-call vote. I will take this chance to say that members reacted with some hilarity when I mentioned the question of visitors during the recess, but it is a serious matter. The machinery is temperamental and I ask members to take that point seriously and not to allow visitors to fiddle with the machines.", "EditedTextHTML": "Hold it for a moment. Can we get the voting system up?

I will wait a minute to see if we can get the machinery working; if not, we will have to have a roll-call vote.

I will take this chance to say that members reacted with some hilarity when I mentioned the question of visitors during the recess, but it is a serious matter. The machinery is temperamental and I ask members to take that point seriously and not to allow visitors to fiddle with the machines.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706432", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 220.0, "ContributionID": 706432, "EditedText": "We cannot hear you.", "EditedTextHTML": "We cannot hear you.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706435", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 226.0, "ContributionID": 706435, "EditedText": "I could take a show-ofhands vote: that means that members' votes will not be recorded in the Official Report, but if members are happy with that, I am quite content. Members voted by show of hands.", "EditedTextHTML": "I could take a show-ofhands vote: that means that members' votes will not be recorded in the Official Report, but if members are happy with that, I am quite content.

Members voted by show of hands.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706441", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 237.0, "ContributionID": 706441, "EditedText": "It will certainly be recorded now that you have mentioned it; it will appear in the Official Report. Can I appeal for members' help. In view of the difficulty that we are having with the machinery, I can tell members before I start the second debate that so far, other than the openers and closers of the debate, I have two Labour names, one Liberal Democrat, three SNP and no Conservatives on my list. If that is correct, that is fine, but if members are in doubt, they should speak to their business managers, who will in turn speak to the clerks, in order that I do not leave people out, as unfortunately happened in the previous debate. We now move to the debate on stage 1 of the Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill. The debate will last for an hour and a half. If I am correct about the number of speakers, speeches can be five minutes in length, but my deputy and I will review that in the light of the number of members who wish to speak.", "EditedTextHTML": "It will certainly be recorded now that you have mentioned it; it will appear in the Official Report.

Can I appeal for members' help. In view of the difficulty that we are having with the machinery, I can tell members before I start the second debate that so far, other than the openers and closers of the debate, I have two Labour names, one Liberal Democrat, three SNP and no Conservatives on my list. If that is correct, that is fine, but if members are in doubt, they should speak to their business managers, who will in turn speak to the clerks, in order that I do not leave people out, as unfortunately happened in the previous debate.

We now move to the debate on stage 1 of the Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill. The debate will last for an hour and a half. If I am correct about the number of speakers, speeches can be five minutes in length, but my deputy and I will review that in the light of the number of members who wish to speak.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C706442", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Jim Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 240.0, "ContributionID": 706442, "EditedText": "I listened to the remarks of Mr Canavan in the previous debate. I am sure that he said what many of us were thinking: that when we set out to establish the Scottish Parliament and were looking forward to a legislative programme, none of us envisaged that the first piece of legislation would be this Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill, and that it would be one for which we would be using emergency powers. Because of the concerns expressed in the debate that has just taken place, it is important that we now proceed with this bill and with considering its principles. This is an opportunity for us, as a Parliament, to debate in principle the purpose and provisions of this four-section bill. Although we are proceeding on an emergency basis by agreement, this stage 1 debate is no different from that for other bills that will come before Parliament. I would like to start by setting out clearly the intention and principles behind this bill. Experience has shown that when the courts come to interpret legislation, it is enormously helpful to them to understand clearly what was in Parliament's mind when passing it. The main aim of the bill is to close a loophole that may allow a restricted patient who is detained in hospital to appeal successfully against his detention on the grounds that, although he continues to have a serious mental disorder and may be considered a serious risk to the public, he is not, in a legal sense, treatable. In the most recent interpretation of the relevant sections of the Mental Health (Scotland) Act 1984, the House of Lords judgment in the case of Alexander Reid, about which we have already heard a number of comments this morning, the treatments which may define treatability were defined to be broad. However, treatability was established as the first test which a sheriff has to consider in an appeal from a patient suffering from a mental disorder. Public protection may be considered, but only once this first test is met. If, as in the Ruddle case, the sheriff finds that the patient is not treatable, the law, as it stands, does not allow the sheriff to proceed to consider issues of public safety. The purpose of this bill is to reverse that and to put public safety first. The main principle of this bill is that public safety will become the first and paramount test when mentally disordered patients who are subject to restriction orders appeal to the courts for discharge. That will be achieved through having a clear direction to sheriffs on the face of the bill. There are also flanking provisions with the same broad aim. Ministers will apply the same public safety test that they have used for many years. Ministers of the Scottish Executive and restricted patients will have a new power of appeal against the sheriff's decision, and there will be a new power to detain patients in hospital for 14 days pending consideration of whether there will be an appeal. If there is an appeal, they may be detained thereafter until the appeal is concluded. That is the broad picture of the bill. I shall now examine the sections one by one. Section 1 provides that, where a restricted patient appeals against his detention, the sheriff must first consider whether the patient suffers from a mental disorder that makes it necessary to continue detention to protect the public from serious harm. If the answer is yes, the sheriff must continue the patient's detention. The burden of proof will rest on Scottish ministers. Section 1 applies a similarly worded requirement of Scottish ministers when they consider the discharge of a restricted patient. The amendments are applied to existing appeals, when the hearing takes place on or after 1 September 1999, as well as to future appeals. Section 2 creates a new right of appeal, against the decision of the sheriff, to the Court of Session and the House of Lords. The appeal, which may be on a point of fact or of law, may be made by Scottish ministers or by the detained patient. The Court of Session will be able to order the continuing detention of the patient until the appeal is decided. Section 3 clarifies that the definition of mental disorder in the Mental Health (Scotland) Act 1984 includes personality disorder. Section 4 contains the short title and the commencement of provisions. The main part of the act will come into effect immediately upon royal assent, but the new right of appeal will be brought into force by a separate commencement order, to allow time for the procedures to be agreed. We anticipate that that will be done promptly. As Parliament knows, this bill has been prepared at speed, but we have crafted it carefully by applying three key tests. The first test is whether the bill is essential. We believe that it is. If appeals for absolute discharge by mentally disordered patients whose release could be dangerous to the public are to be effectively opposed, we need this bill. The debate earlier today made the parliamentary will on that plain. The second test is whether this bill will be effective. We believe that it will, as it is precisely targeted on the reasons why the sheriff allowed, and we could not prevent, Mr Ruddle's release a month ago. The third test is whether this bill complies with the European convention on human rights. I assure Parliament that we have taken every step to ensure that that is so. Our judgment is that the bill goes as far as we can in securing public safety powers. I stress again that we will revisit Scotland's mental health legislation during this Parliament. Armed with the MacLean and Millan recommendations—and taking the point that was made by Mrs Ewing previously—we will ensure a full opportunity for the committees of this Parliament to consider these proposals. We plan a substantial revision of this complex area of law. I assure members that, if we find that the measures in this bill will bear improvement in the longer term, there will be an opportunity for change. The following debate will be one of three stagesfor consideration of the bill. Although this is emergency legislation, we have allowed nearly a week between stage 1 and the other two stages so that there is time for reflection, and in case members want to lodge amendments. When those amendments are considered, it is important that we should remind ourselves of the need to maintain the assurances that we have given on compliance with the European convention on human rights. Speed of preparation has ruled out formal consultation, but I was able to brief the principal Opposition spokesmen late last week on the provisions of the bill. I record my appreciation of their willingness to help us to deal with this legislation on a fast track. In accepting the general principles of the bill, they reserve the right to examine it in detail and to provide the kind of parliamentary scrutiny that we expect from responsible Opposition parties. As well as informing Lord MacLean and Mr Bruce Millan of our proposals, we have been able to brief key expert bodies: the Law Society of Scotland, the Mental Welfare Commission for Scotland, the Scottish Association for Mental Health, and the Scottish division of the Royal College of Psychiatrists. We have assured them that, although we are determined to close the Ruddle loophole, this bill will not encroach further into territory where the MacLean and Millan committees are already at work. That assurance has been strongly welcomed. That outlines the principles of the bill that we invite Parliament to endorse today. I look forward to hearing the contributions of members, and to considering the bill in greater detail next week. I commend the bill to Parliament for support. I move,That the Parliament agrees to the general principles of the Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill.", "EditedTextHTML": "I listened to the remarks of Mr Canavan in the previous debate. I am sure that he said what many of us were thinking: that when we set out to establish the Scottish Parliament and were looking forward to a legislative programme, none of us envisaged that the first piece of legislation would be this Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill, and that it would be one for which we would be using emergency powers. Because of the concerns expressed in the debate that has just taken place, it is important that we now proceed with this bill and with considering its principles.

This is an opportunity for us, as a Parliament, to debate in principle the purpose and provisions of this four-section bill. Although we are proceeding on an emergency basis by agreement, this stage 1 debate is no different from that for other bills that will come before Parliament.

I would like to start by setting out clearly the intention and principles behind this bill. Experience has shown that when the courts come to interpret legislation, it is enormously helpful to them to understand clearly what was in Parliament's mind when passing it.

The main aim of the bill is to close a loophole that may allow a restricted patient who is detained in hospital to appeal successfully against his detention on the grounds that, although he continues to have a serious mental disorder and may be considered a serious risk to the public, he is not, in a legal sense, treatable.

In the most recent interpretation of the relevant sections of the Mental Health (Scotland) Act 1984, the House of Lords judgment in the case of Alexander Reid, about which we have already heard a number of comments this morning, the treatments which may define treatability were defined to be broad. However, treatability was established as the first test which a sheriff has to consider in an appeal from a patient suffering from a mental disorder. Public protection may be considered, but only once this first test is met. If, as in the Ruddle case, the sheriff finds that the patient is not treatable, the law, as it stands, does not allow the sheriff to proceed to consider issues of public safety. The purpose of this bill is to reverse that and to put public safety first.

The main principle of this bill is that public safety will become the first and paramount test when mentally disordered patients who are subject to restriction orders appeal to the courts for discharge. That will be achieved through having a clear direction to sheriffs on the face of the bill. There are also flanking provisions with the same broad aim. Ministers will apply the same public safety test that they have used for many years. Ministers of the Scottish Executive and restricted patients will have a new power of appeal against the sheriff's decision, and there will be a new power to detain patients in hospital for 14 days pending consideration of whether there will be an appeal. If there is an appeal, they may be detained thereafter until the appeal is concluded.

That is the broad picture of the bill. I shall now examine the sections one by one.

Section 1 provides that, where a restricted patient appeals against his detention, the sheriff must first consider whether the patient suffers from a mental disorder that makes it necessary to continue detention to protect the public from serious harm. If the answer is yes, the sheriff must continue the patient's detention. The burden of proof will rest on Scottish ministers. Section 1 applies a similarly worded requirement of Scottish ministers when they consider the discharge of a restricted patient. The amendments are applied to existing appeals, when the hearing takes place on or after 1 September 1999, as well as to future appeals.

Section 2 creates a new right of appeal, against the decision of the sheriff, to the Court of Session and the House of Lords. The appeal, which may be on a point of fact or of law, may be made by Scottish ministers or by the detained patient. The Court of Session will be able to order the continuing detention of the patient until the appeal is decided.

Section 3 clarifies that the definition of mental disorder in the Mental Health (Scotland) Act 1984 includes personality disorder. Section 4 contains the short title and the commencement of provisions. The main part of the act will come into effect immediately upon royal assent, but the new right of appeal will be brought into force by a separate commencement order, to allow time for the procedures to be agreed. We anticipate that that will be done promptly.

As Parliament knows, this bill has been prepared at speed, but we have crafted it carefully by applying three key tests. The first test is whether the bill is essential. We believe that it is. If appeals for absolute discharge by mentally disordered patients whose release could be dangerous to the public are to be effectively opposed, we need this bill. The debate earlier today made the parliamentary will on that plain.

The second test is whether this bill will be effective. We believe that it will, as it is precisely targeted on the reasons why the sheriff allowed, and we could not prevent, Mr Ruddle's release a month ago. The third test is whether this bill complies with the European convention on human rights. I assure Parliament that we have taken every step to ensure that that is so. Our judgment is that the bill goes as far as we can in securing public safety powers.

I stress again that we will revisit Scotland's mental health legislation during this Parliament. Armed with the MacLean and Millan recommendations—and taking the point that was made by Mrs Ewing previously—we will ensure a full opportunity for the committees of this Parliament to consider these proposals. We plan a substantial revision of this complex area of law. I assure members that, if we find that the measures in this bill will bear improvement in the longer term, there will be an opportunity for change.

The following debate will be one of three stages

for consideration of the bill. Although this is emergency legislation, we have allowed nearly a week between stage 1 and the other two stages so that there is time for reflection, and in case members want to lodge amendments. When those amendments are considered, it is important that we should remind ourselves of the need to maintain the assurances that we have given on compliance with the European convention on human rights.

Speed of preparation has ruled out formal consultation, but I was able to brief the principal Opposition spokesmen late last week on the provisions of the bill. I record my appreciation of their willingness to help us to deal with this legislation on a fast track. In accepting the general principles of the bill, they reserve the right to examine it in detail and to provide the kind of parliamentary scrutiny that we expect from responsible Opposition parties.

As well as informing Lord MacLean and Mr Bruce Millan of our proposals, we have been able to brief key expert bodies: the Law Society of Scotland, the Mental Welfare Commission for Scotland, the Scottish Association for Mental Health, and the Scottish division of the Royal College of Psychiatrists. We have assured them that, although we are determined to close the Ruddle loophole, this bill will not encroach further into territory where the MacLean and Millan committees are already at work. That assurance has been strongly welcomed.

That outlines the principles of the bill that we invite Parliament to endorse today. I look forward to hearing the contributions of members, and to considering the bill in greater detail next week. I commend the bill to Parliament for support.

I move,

That the Parliament agrees to the general principles of the Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706466", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 301.0, "ContributionID": 706466, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706467", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 302.0, "ContributionID": 706467, "EditedText": "The next motion is on procedures for stages 2 and 3 of the bill. I ask Mr Tom McCabe to move motion S1M-111.", "EditedTextHTML": "The next motion is on procedures for stages 2 and 3 of the bill. I ask Mr Tom McCabe to move motion S1M-111.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706468", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 304.0, "ContributionID": 706468, "EditedText": "Motion moved,", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion moved,

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1990E181P340C706454", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robson, Euan", "ID": 1990, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Roxburgh and Berwickshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Euan Robson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Euan Robson (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 272.0, "ContributionID": 706454, "EditedText": "I will restrict my comments to section 3 and the inclusion of personality disorder in the Mental Health (Scotland) Act 1984. I, too, have some reservations about that, but I do not believe that the provision should be taken in isolation. Further tests would be applied before someone was detained; they would have to establish that someone not only had a personality disorder, but was a danger to the public. Clarification of that point would be helpful, as some reservations have been expressed. However, I believe that personality disorder is only one of the tests that would be applied in any given case.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will restrict my comments to section 3 and the inclusion of personality disorder in the Mental Health (Scotland) Act 1984. I, too, have some

reservations about that, but I do not believe that the provision should be taken in isolation. Further tests would be applied before someone was detained; they would have to establish that someone not only had a personality disorder, but was a danger to the public. Clarification of that point would be helpful, as some reservations have been expressed. However, I believe that personality disorder is only one of the tests that would be applied in any given case.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2112E192P495C706456", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacAskill, Kenny", "ID": 2112, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenny MacAskill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Kenny MacAskill (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 278.0, "ContributionID": 706456, "EditedText": "As I said before, the problem has been on-going in jurisprudence and psychiatry for 40 years. The tragedy is that, through the incompetence and delay of the Executive and the previous Administration, we have to rush this legislation through. As Margaret Ewing said, piecemeal and hastily drafted legislation is a recipe for disaster. We are left with no option but to support the bill but we must flag up some problems. We have to recognise that Europe is a governmental power. The bill addresses an aspect of Scottish law but our law has been irrevocably changed by the European convention on human rights. The bill is, to some extent, passé. We are assured that the bill recognises the convention. I hope it does but I have my doubts. I have been informed that appeals can be made under article 8 of the convention, on the basis that the hospital in Carstairs is a considerable distance from people's relatives. The bill does not address two underlying problems. It deals with people who are in the state hospital at Carstairs. It does not deal with psychopaths or people with personality disorders. I share the reservations expressed by many members on how we define personality disorders. The bill does not amend section 17 of the Mental Health (Scotland) Act 1984, which outlines the criteria by which people in civil and criminal matters are admitted into institutions; it deals with section 1. It is designed to stop people with personality disorders getting out of Carstairs; it does not stop people walking out of prison at the end of their sentence, nor would it deal with Mr Ruddle, should he choose to return to Scotland. We are dealing with the detention of those who are in Carstairs, not personality problems. That is a fundamental flaw in the bill, although the MacLean committee might address it. Michael Matheson touched on the lack of resources that are available to deal with personality disorders. As Christine Grahame remarked, treatment for alcoholism would have helped Ruddle. His personality disorder was exacerbated by alcohol and drugs, which created the paranoid schizophrenia from which he suffered. Why was the alcohol unit at Carstairs closed down in 1996? Perhaps the Tories can answer that. I hope that whoever sums up for the Executive will say when that unit will be reopened. The clearest critique of the bill is provided by the research note \"Mentally Disordered Offenders in Scotland\", which was produced by the Parliament's information centre. Page 4 details research from 1997. I understand that the research indicates that around 50 per cent of people who are patients of, or remanded in, Carstairs need not be there as they are not a danger. They should be helped in another way. The document says:\"Health Boards have a responsibility to develop integrated and multi-disciplinary assessment, treatment and rehabilitation of mentally disordered offenders. Where possible, emphasis should be placed on the local level for provision of secure environments for the treatment (or rehabilitation) of offenders.\" Note that it recommends a local level, not the state hospital at Carstairs. It continues: \"Four or five such units should be established across Scotland (including those that already exist at Perth and Aberdeen). Services could be provided on a ‘supra-board' level, with occupational therapists, clinical psychologists and social work input. Health Boards should, in future, become more closely involved in monitoring the progress of patients from their areas who are accepted into the State Hospital. Overall the recommendations emphasise that the ‘right kind of secure hospital facilities will reduce pressure on the State Hospital'\". Given that that information was available in 1997 and that this legislation has been rushed through in a few weeks, what extra resources has the Executive provided outwith Carstairs? What additional resources have been put into Carstairs? If no additional resources have been provided, why have they not? This bill shuts the door for some and fails to address a fundamental problem: it does not lay down how to deal with people who have dangerous personality disorders and it provides no resources to help those people.", "EditedTextHTML": "As I said before, the problem has been on-going in jurisprudence and psychiatry for 40 years. The tragedy is that, through the incompetence and delay of the Executive and the previous Administration, we have to rush this legislation through. As Margaret Ewing said, piecemeal and hastily drafted legislation is a recipe for disaster. We are left with no option but to support the bill but we must flag up some problems.

We have to recognise that Europe is a governmental power. The bill addresses an aspect of Scottish law but our law has been irrevocably changed by the European convention on human rights. The bill is, to some extent, passé. We are assured that the bill recognises the convention. I hope it does but I have my doubts. I have been informed that appeals can be made under article 8 of the convention, on the basis that the hospital in Carstairs is a considerable distance from people's relatives.

The bill does not address two underlying problems. It deals with people who are in the state hospital at Carstairs. It does not deal with psychopaths or people with personality disorders. I share the reservations expressed by many members on how we define personality disorders. The bill does not amend section 17 of the Mental Health (Scotland) Act 1984, which outlines the criteria by which people in civil and criminal matters are admitted into institutions; it deals with section 1. It is designed to stop people with personality disorders getting out of Carstairs; it does not stop people walking out of prison at the end of their sentence, nor would it deal with Mr Ruddle, should he choose to return to Scotland. We are dealing with the detention of those who are in Carstairs, not personality problems. That is a fundamental flaw in the bill, although the MacLean committee might address it.

Michael Matheson touched on the lack of resources that are available to deal with personality disorders. As Christine Grahame remarked, treatment for alcoholism would have helped Ruddle. His personality disorder was exacerbated by alcohol and drugs, which created the paranoid schizophrenia from which he suffered. Why was the alcohol unit at Carstairs

closed down in 1996? Perhaps the Tories can answer that. I hope that whoever sums up for the Executive will say when that unit will be reopened.

The clearest critique of the bill is provided by the research note \"Mentally Disordered Offenders in Scotland\", which was produced by the Parliament's information centre. Page 4 details research from 1997. I understand that the research indicates that around 50 per cent of people who are patients of, or remanded in, Carstairs need not be there as they are not a danger. They should be helped in another way.

The document says:

\"Health Boards have a responsibility to develop integrated and multi-disciplinary assessment, treatment and rehabilitation of mentally disordered offenders. Where possible, emphasis should be placed on the local level for provision of secure environments for the treatment (or rehabilitation) of offenders.\"

Note that it recommends a local level, not the state hospital at Carstairs. It continues:

\"Four or five such units should be established across Scotland (including those that already exist at Perth and Aberdeen). Services could be provided on a ‘supra-board' level, with occupational therapists, clinical psychologists and social work input. Health Boards should, in future, become more closely involved in monitoring the progress of patients from their areas who are accepted into the State Hospital. Overall the recommendations emphasise that the ‘right kind of secure hospital facilities will reduce pressure on the State Hospital'\".

Given that that information was available in 1997 and that this legislation has been rushed through in a few weeks, what extra resources has the Executive provided outwith Carstairs? What additional resources have been put into Carstairs? If no additional resources have been provided, why have they not? This bill shuts the door for some and fails to address a fundamental problem: it does not lay down how to deal with people who have dangerous personality disorders and it provides no resources to help those people.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C706457", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 280.0, "ContributionID": 706457, "EditedText": "The Opposition parties will each be allocated eight minutes for the concluding speeches.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Opposition parties will each be allocated eight minutes for the concluding speeches.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2033E106P139C706462", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gray, Iain", "ID": 2033, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Pentlands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Iain Gray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Community Care (Iain Gray): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 293.0, "ContributionID": 706462, "EditedText": "In two debates today we have placed under close scrutiny the Ruddle case and the bill that is designed to prevent its repetition. It is a testing process for the Parliament because the existing law and procedures are complex, and big issues are at stake. The tone of the debate, particularly the second one, has recognised that. Today we do not have the comfort—and we have to say comfort—of legislating when there has been full prior scrutiny and full consultation. That is the nature of emergency legislation and of the urgency with which we have been told we should act. It means that some of the important and broad-ranging issues that have been raised will not be dealt with today, but I will return to how they will be dealt with later. It could have been so much worse. If we had listened to those—and to be fair, most of them are not in the chamber—who insisted that we should do six impossible, probably unlawful, things before breakfast, to keep Noel Ruddle in detention, while we recalled Parliament by lunchtime and legislated before tea, we would have risked tears at bedtime. We would have faced legislation so hasty that it might have been struck down on its first application. Of equal importance, we would have compromised the on-going work to modernise our mental health legislation in a right and proper manner. By contrast, I recap some of the essential points of the emergency bill. First, it is a short bill with a clearly defined purpose—public safety. Secondly, it will introduce practical and immediate steps to close the loophole exposed by the Ruddle case. Thirdly, the protections that are essential to an approach based on the European convention on human rights are there; I am happy to assure members who have asked, that the legislation has been fully considered against the convention, including articles 7 and 5. Our view is that the legislation meets the requirements of the convention. In that context, several members referred to the therapeutic regime in the state hospital. It is true that the sheriff criticised that regime. That is why, on 2 August when that judgment became available to me, my officials and I began to look at the best way to respond to those criticisms. It was decided that we should ask the Mental Welfare Commission to look into the Ruddle case. As members know, we did that. Its report will inform our response to those criticisms. The judgment was made that Ruddle's condition was not treatable. That was the opinion of Ruddle's responsible medical officer at that time. Fourthly, this legislation bites as of yesterday. It will therefore apply to all future appeals in the sheriff court against continuing detention of a restricted patient. A question has been raised about the difference in timing of the different sections of the bill; I reassure members that the difference in timing for the appeal provision is to allow the Court of Session appeals procedures to be put in place. We expect that to be a matter of days rather than weeks. As Deputy Minister for Community Care, I strongly endorse the need to act in this way to prevent serious harm to the public by the small group of patients who will be affected by the legislation. I am happy to give the assurance that has been sought by several members, that the legislation will apply only to those who have a mental disorder and who manifest abnormally aggressive or seriously irresponsible behaviour. The other tests, in particular section 17 of the 1984 act, will apply. We will do ourselves and our people no service if, in passing this legislation, we jeopardise the current review of mental health legislation by the Millan committee. That is why, with a view to the longer term, we clarified the existing position that personality disorder is legally within the scope of mental disorder. I thank Richard Simpson for his helpful comments.", "EditedTextHTML": "In two debates today we have placed under close scrutiny the Ruddle case and the bill that is designed to prevent its repetition. It is a testing process for the Parliament because the existing law and procedures are complex, and big issues are at stake. The tone of the debate, particularly the second one, has recognised that.

Today we do not have the comfort—and we have to say comfort—of legislating when there has been full prior scrutiny and full consultation. That is the nature of emergency legislation and of the urgency with which we have been told we should act. It means that some of the important and

broad-ranging issues that have been raised will not be dealt with today, but I will return to how they will be dealt with later.

It could have been so much worse. If we had listened to those—and to be fair, most of them are not in the chamber—who insisted that we should do six impossible, probably unlawful, things before breakfast, to keep Noel Ruddle in detention, while we recalled Parliament by lunchtime and legislated before tea, we would have risked tears at bedtime. We would have faced legislation so hasty that it might have been struck down on its first application. Of equal importance, we would have compromised the on-going work to modernise our mental health legislation in a right and proper manner.

By contrast, I recap some of the essential points of the emergency bill. First, it is a short bill with a clearly defined purpose—public safety. Secondly, it will introduce practical and immediate steps to close the loophole exposed by the Ruddle case. Thirdly, the protections that are essential to an approach based on the European convention on human rights are there; I am happy to assure members who have asked, that the legislation has been fully considered against the convention, including articles 7 and 5. Our view is that the legislation meets the requirements of the convention.

In that context, several members referred to the therapeutic regime in the state hospital. It is true that the sheriff criticised that regime. That is why, on 2 August when that judgment became available to me, my officials and I began to look at the best way to respond to those criticisms. It was decided that we should ask the Mental Welfare Commission to look into the Ruddle case. As members know, we did that. Its report will inform our response to those criticisms. The judgment was made that Ruddle's condition was not treatable. That was the opinion of Ruddle's responsible medical officer at that time.

Fourthly, this legislation bites as of yesterday. It will therefore apply to all future appeals in the sheriff court against continuing detention of a restricted patient. A question has been raised about the difference in timing of the different sections of the bill; I reassure members that the difference in timing for the appeal provision is to allow the Court of Session appeals procedures to be put in place. We expect that to be a matter of days rather than weeks.

As Deputy Minister for Community Care, I strongly endorse the need to act in this way to prevent serious harm to the public by the small group of patients who will be affected by the legislation. I am happy to give the assurance that has been sought by several members, that the legislation will apply only to those who have a mental disorder and who manifest abnormally aggressive or seriously irresponsible behaviour. The other tests, in particular section 17 of the 1984 act, will apply.

We will do ourselves and our people no service if, in passing this legislation, we jeopardise the current review of mental health legislation by the Millan committee. That is why, with a view to the longer term, we clarified the existing position that personality disorder is legally within the scope of mental disorder. I thank Richard Simpson for his helpful comments.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2033E106P139C706464", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gray, Iain", "ID": 2033, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Pentlands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Iain Gray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Iain Gray: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 297.0, "ContributionID": 706464, "EditedText": "The Lord Advocate has agreed to reply in writing. One in four of us—this point was made by a number of members—will suffer from a mental illness at some time in our lives. It is important to recognise—I welcome Robert Brown's intervention on this—that most people who suffer a mental illness are no danger to the public. The mental health framework that was launched in September 1997 is modernising the services. The mental illness specific grant invests £18 million per year in improving those services. A few weeks ago, I announced a further £2 million for the mental health development fund. In answer to Mr MacAskill's question, I can say that forensic psychiatric services—two in Glasgow, one in Edinburgh and others around Scotland—are being developed. Not only do one in four of us, at some time in our lives, need to have confidence in those services; so do the hundreds of staff in many different professions who undertake difficult work on our behalf. I thank Karen Gillon and Lewis Macdonald for their interventions that reminded us of that. The 1984 act is the legal framework for all those services. That framework cannot be determined solely by the tip of the mental health iceberg—the conjunction of disordered personality and acute violence—and this legislation will not do that. The Millan committee will be allowed to complete its work; it will be informed by Lord MacLean's committee on violent offenders. The legislation that follows their recommendations will be afforded the full normal scrutiny of the Parliament and its committees. We have given that assurance to bodies such as the Law Society of Scotland and the Scottish Association for Mental Health. Jim Wallace repeated that assurance today, and I am happy to do so one more time. I will also ensure that the many important points that were raised in this debate are passed on to MacLean and Millan for their committees' consideration. As members know, we have already asked Lord MacLean's committee to consider the Ruddle case specifically. The bill is deliberately limited to the steps that are essential to close the Ruddle loophole now. That responsibility was placed on the Executive. I hope that members are ready to endorse the principles of the bill, to clear the way for the more detailed scrutiny at stage 2. On 2 August—a month ago—we said that we would legislate if necessary; it is. We said that we would not legislate in haste; we have not. We said that we would legislate quickly and before any further similar releases; we are doing that. This bill is concise, careful and considered. Above all, it is the correct thing to do now. I commend it to members.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Lord Advocate has agreed to reply in writing.

One in four of us—this point was made by a number of members—will suffer from a mental illness at some time in our lives. It is important to recognise—I welcome Robert Brown's intervention on this—that most people who suffer a mental illness are no danger to the public. The mental health framework that was launched in September 1997 is modernising the services. The mental illness specific grant invests £18 million per year in improving those services. A few weeks ago, I announced a further £2 million for the mental health development fund. In answer to Mr MacAskill's question, I can say that forensic psychiatric services—two in Glasgow, one in Edinburgh and others around Scotland—are being developed.

Not only do one in four of us, at some time in our lives, need to have confidence in those services; so do the hundreds of staff in many different professions who undertake difficult work on our behalf. I thank Karen Gillon and Lewis Macdonald for their interventions that reminded us of that.

The 1984 act is the legal framework for all those services. That framework cannot be determined solely by the tip of the mental health iceberg—the conjunction of disordered personality and acute violence—and this legislation will not do that. The Millan committee will be allowed to complete its work; it will be informed by Lord MacLean's committee on violent offenders. The legislation that follows their recommendations will be afforded the full normal scrutiny of the Parliament and its committees. We have given that assurance to bodies such as the Law Society of Scotland and the Scottish Association for Mental Health. Jim Wallace repeated that assurance today, and I am happy to do so one more time.

I will also ensure that the many important points that were raised in this debate are passed on to MacLean and Millan for their committees'

consideration. As members know, we have already asked Lord MacLean's committee to consider the Ruddle case specifically.

The bill is deliberately limited to the steps that are essential to close the Ruddle loophole now. That responsibility was placed on the Executive. I hope that members are ready to endorse the principles of the bill, to clear the way for the more detailed scrutiny at stage 2.

On 2 August—a month ago—we said that we would legislate if necessary; it is. We said that we would not legislate in haste; we have not. We said that we would legislate quickly and before any further similar releases; we are doing that.

This bill is concise, careful and considered. Above all, it is the correct thing to do now. I commend it to members.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706465", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 299.0, "ContributionID": 706465, "EditedText": "We now move to a decision on stage 1 of the bill. The question is, that motion S1M-115, in the name of Mr Jim Wallace, be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "We now move to a decision on stage 1 of the bill. The question is, that motion S1M-115, in the name of Mr Jim Wallace, be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706470", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 306.0, "ContributionID": 706470, "EditedText": "9.7.9 of Standing Orders should be suspended for the purposes of the meeting of the Parliament at which Stages 2 and 3 of the Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill are taken, and (b) directs that any vote to be taken during Stage 2 of the Bill in the Committee of the Whole Parliament shall be conducted using the electronic voting system.—Mr McCabe. The Presiding Officer: The question is, that motion S1M-111, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "9.7.9 of Standing Orders should be suspended for the purposes of the meeting of the Parliament at which Stages 2 and 3 of the Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill are taken, and (b) directs that any vote to be taken during Stage 2 of the Bill in the Committee of the Whole Parliament shall be conducted using the electronic voting system.—[Mr McCabe.] The Presiding Officer: The question is, that motion S1M-111, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706471", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 307.0, "ContributionID": 706471, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706475", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 314.0, "ContributionID": 706475, "EditedText": "On resuming—", "EditedTextHTML": "On resuming—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C706478", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26729, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26730, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 320.0, "QuestionHeading": "“The Scotland Bill: A Guide”", "QuestionHeadingID": 26731, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 321.0, "DisplayOrder": 321.0, "ID": 26731, "ParentID": 26730 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "1. Michael Russell (South of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 322.0, "ContributionID": 706478, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it still endorses the contents of \"The Scotland Bill: A Guide\", published by the Scottish Office in December 1997. (S10-203)", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it still endorses the contents of \"The Scotland Bill: A Guide\", published by the Scottish Office in December 1997. (S10-203)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C706481", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26729, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26730, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 320.0, "QuestionHeading": "“The Scotland Bill: A Guide”", "QuestionHeadingID": 26731, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 321.0, "DisplayOrder": 321.0, "ID": 26731, "ParentID": 26730 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 328.0, "ContributionID": 706481, "EditedText": "Some applause is rather easily earned.", "EditedTextHTML": "Some applause is rather easily earned.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1986E53P206C706485", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26729, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26730, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 320.0, "QuestionHeading": "Tall Ships", "QuestionHeadingID": 26732, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 334.0, "DisplayOrder": 334.0, "ID": 26732, "ParentID": 26730 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeil, Duncan", "ID": 1986, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Greenock and Inverclyde" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan McNeil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McNeil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 337.0, "ContributionID": 706485, "EditedText": "The event was such a success that we made a video and there is a free copy for Sam at the end of question time. For everyone else, it costs £11.99 from Inverclyde District Council. Does the Executive recognise that while event- based tourism such as the tall ships race boosts an area's image, confidence and self-esteem, long-term gains can be achieved only by supporting the Invest in Inverclyde campaign that seeks to deliver significant benefits by improving infrastructure and by sustainably developing tourism? Such measures allow areas such as Greenock to overcome serious problems that arise from the demise of heavy industry.", "EditedTextHTML": "The event was such a success that we made a video and there is a free copy for Sam at the end of question time. For everyone else, it costs £11.99 from Inverclyde District Council.

Does the Executive recognise that while event- based tourism such as the tall ships race boosts an area's image, confidence and self-esteem, long-term gains can be achieved only by supporting the Invest in Inverclyde campaign that seeks to deliver significant benefits by improving infrastructure and by sustainably developing tourism? Such measures allow areas such as Greenock to overcome serious problems that arise from the demise of heavy industry.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706490", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26729, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26730, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 320.0, "QuestionHeading": "Business Start-ups (Internet)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26733, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "DisplayOrder": 341.0, "ID": 26733, "ParentID": 26730 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 348.0, "ContributionID": 706490, "EditedText": "That is enough.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is enough.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1931E120P189C706492", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26729, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26730, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 320.0, "QuestionHeading": "Rail Services (Edinburgh–Shotts–Glasgow)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26734, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 352.0, "DisplayOrder": 352.0, "ID": 26734, "ParentID": 26730 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Muldoon, Bristow", "ID": 1931, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Livingston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bristow Muldoon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "4. Bristow Muldoon (Livingston) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 353.0, "ContributionID": 706492, "EditedText": "I want to place on record a registrable interest in the Rail, Maritime and Transport Union due to an existing constituency agreement with the Livingston constituency Labour party, and the Transport Salaried Staffs Association is in the process of reaching such a constituency agreement. To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will make available resources to improve the frequency and quality of services on the Edinburgh-Shotts-Glasgow railway line. R (S1O225)", "EditedTextHTML": "I want to place on record a registrable interest in the Rail, Maritime and Transport Union due to an existing constituency agreement with the Livingston constituency Labour party, and the Transport Salaried Staffs Association is in the process of reaching such a constituency agreement. To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will make available resources to improve the

frequency and quality of services on the Edinburgh-Shotts-Glasgow railway line. R (S1O225)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1775E171P452C706496", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26729, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26730, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 320.0, "QuestionHeading": "Information Strategy", "QuestionHeadingID": 26735, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 361.0, "DisplayOrder": 361.0, "ID": 26735, "ParentID": 26730 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeod, Fiona", "ID": 1775, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona McLeod", "SpeakerDisplayName": "5. Fiona McLeod (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 362.0, "ContributionID": 706496, "EditedText": "I, too, have to declare a registered interest. I am currently a member of the Library Association. To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has to implement an integrated information strategy for Scotland. R (S1O-207)", "EditedTextHTML": "I, too, have to declare a registered interest. I am currently a member of the Library Association. To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has to implement an integrated information strategy for Scotland. R (S1O-207)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C706497", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26729, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26730, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 320.0, "QuestionHeading": "Information Strategy", "QuestionHeadingID": 26735, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 361.0, "DisplayOrder": 361.0, "ID": 26735, "ParentID": 26730 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Finance (Mr Jack McConnell): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 364.0, "ContributionID": 706497, "EditedText": "I recognise Fiona McLeod's interest in this issue. The Executive recognises the crucial importance of developing an information strategy for Scotland and is committed to making that happen. We will harness the best ideas from the private and public sectors and make effective use of the best of modern technology. There are many areas in which we can make a difference. For example, we must ensure that the many publicly funded information networks in Scotland are properly integrated. We are therefore driving forward three initiatives which, taken together, will mark Scotland out as a leader in the information age. They are our work on \"Modernising Government\", the digital Scotland initiative and developing the knowledge economy.", "EditedTextHTML": "I recognise Fiona McLeod's interest in this issue. The Executive recognises the crucial importance of developing an information strategy for Scotland and is committed to making that happen. We will harness the best ideas from the private and public sectors and make effective use of the best of modern technology.

There are many areas in which we can make a difference. For example, we must ensure that the many publicly funded information networks in Scotland are properly integrated. We are therefore driving forward three initiatives which, taken together, will mark Scotland out as a leader in the information age. They are our work on \"Modernising Government\", the digital Scotland initiative and developing the knowledge economy.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1775E171P452C706500", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26729, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26730, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 320.0, "QuestionHeading": "Information Strategy", "QuestionHeadingID": 26735, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 361.0, "DisplayOrder": 361.0, "ID": 26735, "ParentID": 26730 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeod, Fiona", "ID": 1775, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona McLeod", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona McLeod: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 370.0, "ContributionID": 706500, "EditedText": "I am delighted to hear about the sub-committee on digital Scotland, because I have been trying to find out about it since 2 July when I spoke to Mr McLeish. I would appreciate some early information on the remit and membership of digital Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am delighted to hear about the sub-committee on digital Scotland, because I have been trying to find out about it since 2 July when I spoke to Mr McLeish. I would appreciate some early information on the remit and membership of digital Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2080E130P217C706503", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26729, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26730, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 320.0, "QuestionHeading": "CCTV", "QuestionHeadingID": 26736, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 374.0, "DisplayOrder": 374.0, "ID": 26736, "ParentID": 26730 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lamont, Johann", "ID": 2080, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Pollok" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Johann Lamont", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Johann Lamont: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 377.0, "ContributionID": 706503, "EditedText": "Some of my most vulnerable constituents have told me that they feel like prisoners in their own homes. Does the minister share my fears, in the face of the immense problems that crime presents to us all, that there may be a temptation for us to become dazzled by the quick technological fix, when more low-key, personal strategies for crime prevention may be more effective? Does the minister also agree that CCTV must be monitored effectively, openly and honestly in order that we can support it on the effective rather than simplyfashionable? basis that it is because it is Finally, does the minister—", "EditedTextHTML": "Some of my most vulnerable constituents have told me that they feel like prisoners in their own homes. Does the minister share my fears, in the face of the immense problems that crime presents to us all, that there may be a temptation for us to become dazzled by the quick technological fix, when more low-key, personal strategies for crime prevention may be more effective?

Does the minister also agree that CCTV must be monitored effectively, openly and honestly in order that we can support it on the effective rather than simplyfashionable? basis that it is because it is Finally, does the minister—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1751E163P286C706507", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26729, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26730, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 320.0, "QuestionHeading": "Rail Services (Glasgow to Cumbernauld)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26737, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 383.0, "DisplayOrder": 383.0, "ID": 26737, "ParentID": 26730 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Craigie, Cathie", "ID": 1751, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Cumbernauld and Kilsyth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Cathie Craigie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Cathie Craigie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 386.0, "ContributionID": 706507, "EditedText": "The provision of a new station on the Glasgow to Cumbernauld line is welcome. I know that my constituents in Cumbernauld and Kilsyth welcome the programme of investments at Cumbernauld station and at Croy station, which is on the Glasgow to Edinburgh line.", "EditedTextHTML": "The provision of a new station on the Glasgow to Cumbernauld line is welcome. I know that my constituents in Cumbernauld and Kilsyth welcome the programme of investments at Cumbernauld station and at Croy station, which is on the Glasgow to Edinburgh line.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C706511", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26729, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26730, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 320.0, "QuestionHeading": "Poverty", "QuestionHeadingID": 26738, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 394.0, "DisplayOrder": 394.0, "ID": 26738, "ParentID": 26730 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "8. Alex Neil (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 395.0, "ContributionID": 706511, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it has set targets for the elimination of poverty in Scotland. (S1O192) The Deputy Minister for Communities (Jackie Baillie): As announced on 29 June, the development of targets for social inclusion is being progressed by the ministerial task force on poverty and inclusion led by Wendy Alexander.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it has set targets for the elimination of poverty in Scotland. (S1O192) The Deputy Minister for Communities (Jackie Baillie): As announced on 29 June, the development of targets for social inclusion is being progressed by the ministerial task force on poverty and inclusion led by Wendy Alexander.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C706512", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26729, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26730, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 320.0, "QuestionHeading": "Poverty", "QuestionHeadingID": 26738, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 394.0, "DisplayOrder": 394.0, "ID": 26738, "ParentID": 26730 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 397.0, "ContributionID": 706512, "EditedText": "Two weeks ago, the Secretary of State for Social Security set a target for the UK of taking 1.25 million out of poverty. Even if that target is achieved, it will leave more than 1 million people in Scotland in poverty. What is the minister intending to do to take those people out of poverty? Does she agree that it is impossible to eliminate poverty in Scotland while benefit cuts are imposed from London?", "EditedTextHTML": "Two weeks ago, the Secretary of State for Social Security set a target for the UK of taking 1.25 million out of poverty. Even if that target is achieved, it will leave more than 1 million people in Scotland in poverty. What is the minister intending to do to take those people out of poverty? Does she agree that it is impossible to eliminate poverty in Scotland while benefit cuts are imposed from London?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C706517", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26729, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26730, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 320.0, "QuestionHeading": "Parliamentary Questions", "QuestionHeadingID": 26740, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 408.0, "DisplayOrder": 408.0, "ID": 26740, "ParentID": 26730 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "10. Dr Richard Simpson (Ochil) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 409.0, "ContributionID": 706517, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will publish an audit of the parliamentary questions it has been asked, broken down by MSP and topic. (S1O-206) The Minister for Parliament (Mr Tom McCabe): I am arranging for an audit of the approximately 1,300 written questions that have been lodged and prepared to date. Such information will be helpful to the Parliament in considering whether we are promoting the most effective dissemination of information and using resources efficiently.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will publish an audit of the parliamentary questions it has been asked, broken down by MSP and topic. (S1O-206) The Minister for Parliament (Mr Tom McCabe): I am arranging for an audit of the approximately 1,300 written questions that have been lodged and prepared to date. Such information will be helpful to the Parliament in considering whether we are promoting the most effective dissemination of information and using resources efficiently.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C706520", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26729, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26730, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 320.0, "QuestionHeading": "Tourism", "QuestionHeadingID": 26741, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 415.0, "DisplayOrder": 415.0, "ID": 26741, "ParentID": 26730 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "11. Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 416.0, "ContributionID": 706520, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what measures it intends to take to address the decline in the number of tourists visiting Scotland. (S1O233) The Deputy Minister for Highlands and Islands and Gaelic (Mr Alasdair Morrison): I will publish a new strategy for the industry around the end of the year. It will address all relevant issues.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what measures it intends to take to address the decline in the number of tourists visiting Scotland. (S1O233) The Deputy Minister for Highlands and Islands and Gaelic (Mr Alasdair Morrison): I will publish a new strategy for the industry around the end of the year. It will address all relevant issues.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C706527", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26729, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26730, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 320.0, "QuestionHeading": "Cattle Cull", "QuestionHeadingID": 26743, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 429.0, "DisplayOrder": 429.0, "ID": 26743, "ParentID": 26730 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Rural Affairs (Mr Ross Finnie): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 432.0, "ContributionID": 706527, "EditedText": "Two. One at Ratho and the other in Glenrothes.", "EditedTextHTML": "Two. One at Ratho and the other in Glenrothes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C706529", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26729, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26730, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 320.0, "QuestionHeading": "Cattle Cull", "QuestionHeadingID": 26743, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 429.0, "DisplayOrder": 429.0, "ID": 26743, "ParentID": 26730 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ross Finnie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 436.0, "ContributionID": 706529, "EditedText": "There are 22,300 tonnes of that material at Ratho, and 49,800 tonnes is held at Glenrothes. As Mr Crawford will be aware, it was never the intention that this material be stored, because the EU regulation lays down that it should be incinerated. Unfortunately, at the time of that regulation—this is an important point to make— while there was sufficient incinerator capacity to deal with the animals that were already suspected of having BSE, there was insufficient capacity in Scotland and in the United Kingdom to deal with animals in the over-30-months scheme. The intervention board, which acts on our behalf in dealing with this, has now placed three contracts with incinerators. A further two are being negotiated and the intervention board has been given a target of achieving a 60 per cent disposal of the present stock by no later than March 2002.", "EditedTextHTML": "There are 22,300 tonnes of that material at Ratho, and 49,800 tonnes is held at Glenrothes. As Mr Crawford will be aware, it was never the intention that this material be stored, because the EU regulation lays down that it should be incinerated. Unfortunately, at the time of that regulation—this is an important point to make— while there was sufficient incinerator capacity to deal with the animals that were already suspected of having BSE, there was insufficient capacity in Scotland and in the United Kingdom to deal with animals in the over-30-months scheme. The intervention board, which acts on our behalf in dealing with this, has now placed three contracts with incinerators. A further two are being negotiated and the intervention board has been given a target of achieving a 60 per cent disposal of the present stock by no later than March 2002.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C706530", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26729, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26730, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 320.0, "QuestionHeading": "Cattle Cull", "QuestionHeadingID": 26743, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 429.0, "DisplayOrder": 429.0, "ID": 26743, "ParentID": 26730 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bruce Crawford: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 438.0, "ContributionID": 706530, "EditedText": "Can I ask for the minister's assurance that none of the BSE rendered material that is held in the storage units will at any stage be disposed of by dispersal on land?", "EditedTextHTML": "Can I ask for the minister's assurance that none of the BSE rendered material that is held in the storage units will at any stage be disposed of by dispersal on land?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1828E200P487C706539", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26729, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26730, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 320.0, "QuestionHeading": "Employment (Forth Valley, Fife and Lothian)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26745, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 457.0, "DisplayOrder": 457.0, "ID": 26745, "ParentID": 26730 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacDonald, Margo", "ID": 1828, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margo MacDonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "15. Ms Margo MacDonald (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 458.0, "ContributionID": 706539, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive if it is aware of new employment opportunities identified by the local enterprise companies covering the Forth valley, Fife and Lothian areas. (S1W-245)", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive if it is aware of new employment opportunities identified by the local enterprise companies covering the Forth valley, Fife and Lothian areas. (S1W-245)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1828E200P487C706541", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26729, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26730, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 320.0, "QuestionHeading": "Employment (Forth Valley, Fife and Lothian)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26745, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 457.0, "DisplayOrder": 457.0, "ID": 26745, "ParentID": 26730 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacDonald, Margo", "ID": 1828, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margo MacDonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms MacDonald: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 462.0, "ContributionID": 706541, "EditedText": "I, too, am delighted to hear about the Quintiles announcement. I also welcome what Henry McLeish said at the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee meeting yesterday about the rapid response unit that has to be established. I also very much approved of the improved intelligence gathering—", "EditedTextHTML": "I, too, am delighted to hear about the Quintiles announcement. I also welcome what Henry McLeish said at the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee meeting yesterday about the rapid response unit that has to be established.

I also very much approved of the improved intelligence gathering—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706542", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26729, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26730, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 320.0, "QuestionHeading": "Employment (Forth Valley, Fife and Lothian)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26745, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 457.0, "DisplayOrder": 457.0, "ID": 26745, "ParentID": 26730 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 464.0, "ContributionID": 706542, "EditedText": "Can we have a question, Margo?", "EditedTextHTML": "Can we have a question, Margo?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1828E200P487C706546", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26729, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26730, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 320.0, "QuestionHeading": "Employment (Forth Valley, Fife and Lothian)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26745, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 457.0, "DisplayOrder": 457.0, "ID": 26745, "ParentID": 26730 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacDonald, Margo", "ID": 1828, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margo MacDonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms MacDonald: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 472.0, "ContributionID": 706546, "EditedText": "Babcock, please.", "EditedTextHTML": "Babcock, please.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2154E194P299C706547", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26729, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26730, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 320.0, "QuestionHeading": "Employment (Forth Valley, Fife and Lothian)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26745, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 457.0, "DisplayOrder": 457.0, "ID": 26745, "ParentID": 26730 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stephen, Nicol", "ID": 2154, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Nicol Stephen", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicol Stephen: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 474.0, "ContributionID": 706547, "EditedText": "That is the sort of commitment that we want companies to make to the areas to which Margo MacDonald refers. It shows great confidence in Scotland, in Lothian and in the work force at South Queensferry.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is the sort of commitment that we want companies to make to the areas to which Margo MacDonald refers. It shows great confidence in Scotland, in Lothian and in the work force at South Queensferry.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1828E200P487C706548", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26729, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26730, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 320.0, "QuestionHeading": "Employment (Forth Valley, Fife and Lothian)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26745, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 457.0, "DisplayOrder": 457.0, "ID": 26745, "ParentID": 26730 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacDonald, Margo", "ID": 1828, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margo MacDonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms MacDonald: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 476.0, "ContributionID": 706548, "EditedText": "On a point of order. I did ask about Babcock, and although I am highly delighted about Motorola and the rest, there is such an enormous work force and such a huge element of the Scottish economy represented at Babcock that I should have an answer on that.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. I did ask about Babcock, and although I am highly delighted about Motorola and the rest, there is such an enormous work force and such a huge element of the Scottish economy represented at Babcock that I should have an answer on that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1996E124P211C706555", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26729, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26730, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 320.0, "QuestionHeading": "Warm Deal Grants", "QuestionHeadingID": 26746, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 486.0, "DisplayOrder": 486.0, "ID": 26746, "ParentID": 26730 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAveety, Mr Frank", "ID": 1996, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Shettleston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Local Government", "SpeakerName": "Frank McAveety", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McAveety: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 491.0, "ContributionID": 706555, "EditedText": "It is important to stress that the scheme is part of an overall package to tackle fuel poverty in Scotland, in conjunction with our colleagues in the UK Parliament. It complements the UK Government's commitment to reduce the level of VAT on household fuel bills from 8 per cent to 5 per cent, to introduce winter payments for pensioners and to increase income support for needy pensioners, payable from April 2000. Through our strategy, combined with that of our partners in the UK Parliament, we believe that we can journey on the road to tackling fuel poverty in Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is important to stress that the scheme is part of an overall package to tackle fuel poverty in Scotland, in conjunction with our colleagues in the UK Parliament. It complements the UK Government's commitment to reduce the level of VAT on household fuel bills from 8 per cent to 5 per cent, to introduce winter payments for pensioners and to increase income support for needy pensioners, payable from April 2000. Through our strategy, combined with that of our partners in the UK Parliament, we believe that we can journey on the road to tackling fuel poverty in Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1751E163P286C706560", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26748, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 500.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 500.0, "ID": 26748, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Craigie, Cathie", "ID": 1751, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Cumbernauld and Kilsyth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Cathie Craigie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Cathie Craigie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 503.0, "ContributionID": 706560, "EditedText": "On a point of order. I ask clarification from you, Presiding Officer, on why members who asked questions in the question time that we have just had were allowed little time to develop their question when other members were allowed to ask two supplementary questions and more.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. I ask clarification from you, Presiding Officer, on why members who asked questions in the question time that we have just had were allowed little time to develop their question when other members were allowed to ask two supplementary questions and more.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706561", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26748, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 500.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 500.0, "ID": 26748, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 505.0, "ContributionID": 706561, "EditedText": "At the beginning I read out the standing order. I am bound by that standing order as much as anyone else. It says that questions should be brief.", "EditedTextHTML": "At the beginning I read out the standing order. I am bound by that standing order as much as anyone else. It says that questions should be brief.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706563", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26748, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 500.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 500.0, "ID": 26748, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 509.0, "ContributionID": 706563, "EditedText": "Being generous, I allow second supplementary questions when I think that a member has something further to ask a minister. We are taking up valuable time. I call Mr Alex Salmond to ask the first question.", "EditedTextHTML": "Being generous, I allow second supplementary questions when I think that a member has something further to ask a minister. We are taking up valuable time. I call Mr Alex Salmond to ask the first question.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C706565", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26748, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 500.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26749, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 511.0, "QuestionHeading": "Transport", "QuestionHeadingID": 26750, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 512.0, "DisplayOrder": 512.0, "ID": 26750, "ParentID": 26749 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 515.0, "ContributionID": 706565, "EditedText": "Let us focus on the Executive document on toll taxes and charges that I was reading over the summer. I cannot describe it as a medal-winning document, by any means. The document seems to suggest that the Executive will be minded to put the administration of the toll taxes into the hands of private companies. If that is the case, how does that square with the Executive's commitment to ring-fence those charges so that they will all be used for transport infrastructure? Alternatively, will the First Minister rule out the use of private companies in the collection of his toll tax?", "EditedTextHTML": "Let us focus on the Executive document on toll taxes and charges that I was reading over the summer. I cannot describe it as a medal-winning document, by any means. The document seems to suggest that the Executive will be minded to put the administration of the toll taxes into the hands of private companies. If that is the case, how does that square with the Executive's commitment to ring-fence those charges so that they will all be used for transport infrastructure? Alternatively, will the First Minister rule out the use of private companies in the collection of his toll tax?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C706566", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26748, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 500.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26749, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 511.0, "QuestionHeading": "Transport", "QuestionHeadingID": 26750, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 512.0, "DisplayOrder": 512.0, "ID": 26750, "ParentID": 26749 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 517.0, "ContributionID": 706566, "EditedText": "I think that for me to accept that invitation would be a sign of arrogance, as we are in the middle of a consultation process. I hope that Alex Salmond, along with his colleagues, will think of joining the consultation rather than riding around the country spreading doom and despair, and running scare stories at every possible opportunity. It would also be helpful if Mr Salmond would clarify the SNP's position on such matters. After all, in August 1998 we were told by its official transport spokesman that \"there is merit in discussing highly focused road-pricing\"and that\"there may be some arguments for motorway tolls\".The SNP conference in September 1998 recognised that \"certain car pricing schemes may provide the revenue needed to develop alternatives\" and committed the party to \"support focused road pricing to help develop public transport alternatives\". Those subtleties have been missed out of recent press releases. I am sure that Mr Salmond regrets that, and I hope that he will put that right in the future.", "EditedTextHTML": "I think that for me to accept that invitation would be a sign of arrogance, as we are in the middle of a consultation process. I hope that Alex Salmond, along with his colleagues, will think of joining the consultation rather than riding around the country spreading doom and despair, and running scare stories at every possible opportunity.

It would also be helpful if Mr Salmond would clarify the SNP's position on such matters. After all, in August 1998 we were told by its official transport spokesman that

\"there is merit in discussing highly focused road-pricing\"

and that

\"there may be some arguments for motorway tolls\".

The SNP conference in September 1998 recognised that

\"certain car pricing schemes may provide the revenue needed to develop alternatives\" and committed the party to

\"support focused road pricing to help develop public transport alternatives\".

Those subtleties have been missed out of recent press releases. I am sure that Mr Salmond regrets that, and I hope that he will put that right in the future.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C706568", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26748, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 500.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26749, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 511.0, "QuestionHeading": "Transport", "QuestionHeadingID": 26750, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 512.0, "DisplayOrder": 512.0, "ID": 26750, "ParentID": 26749 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 521.0, "ContributionID": 706568, "EditedText": "No, it does not mean that the sky is the limit and, as Mr Salmond well knows, the aim of the consultation is to gather opinions and to decide what is practical and right and what will tackle the problems of urban congestion and gridlock. If any scheme goes forward, it will be on the basis that it is appropriate and that there has been proper local consultation, and with the approval of the Administration. I say again very seriously that this is a very big area and while I accept that there is a great deal of room for political mischief making, if there is any truth at all in what is said by the nationalist party about its wish to see improvement in Scotland—", "EditedTextHTML": "No, it does not mean that the sky is the limit and, as Mr Salmond well knows, the aim of the consultation is to gather opinions and to decide what is practical and right and what will tackle the problems of urban congestion and gridlock. If any scheme goes forward, it will be on the basis that it is appropriate and that there has been proper local consultation, and with the approval of the Administration. I say again very seriously that this is a very big area and while I accept that there is a great deal of room for political mischief making, if there is any truth at all in what is said by the nationalist party about its wish to see improvement in Scotland—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C706570", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26748, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 500.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26749, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 511.0, "QuestionHeading": "Transport", "QuestionHeadingID": 26750, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 512.0, "DisplayOrder": 512.0, "ID": 26750, "ParentID": 26749 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 525.0, "ContributionID": 706570, "EditedText": "—and real problems being tackled, then he should come out and start discussing his own plans and start commenting constructively on ours. He falls very far short of that at the moment.", "EditedTextHTML": "—and real problems being tackled, then he should come out and start discussing his own plans and start commenting constructively on ours. He falls very far short of that at the moment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C706574", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26748, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 500.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26749, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 511.0, "QuestionHeading": "Transport", "QuestionHeadingID": 26750, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 512.0, "DisplayOrder": 512.0, "ID": 26750, "ParentID": 26749 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 533.0, "ContributionID": 706574, "EditedText": "The gentleman is working very hard today. Of course, the references to Hamilton would not for one moment suggest to me that we are thinking about a by-election. We are thinking about long-term policy—", "EditedTextHTML": "The gentleman is working very hard today. Of course, the references to Hamilton would not for one moment suggest to me that we are thinking about a by-election. We are thinking about long-term policy—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C706576", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26748, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 500.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26749, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 511.0, "QuestionHeading": "Transport", "QuestionHeadingID": 26750, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 512.0, "DisplayOrder": 512.0, "ID": 26750, "ParentID": 26749 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 537.0, "ContributionID": 706576, "EditedText": "—for the good governance of Scotland and decent transport in Scotland. That kind of calculation is an insult to the argument; it is not the basis on which any calculation would be made. If Mr Salmond joined the debate, he might get a little more information about how these things work, which would certainly help. He seems to think there is no support for this, but, for example, the chief executive of the Glasgow Chamber of Commerce says that if motorway tolls are a way of getting vital arteries open, then the chamber would support it, providing that revenues raised went directly into transport infrastructure projects.", "EditedTextHTML": "—for the good governance of Scotland and decent transport in Scotland. That kind of calculation is an insult to the argument; it is not the basis on which any calculation would be made. If Mr Salmond joined the debate, he might get a little more information about how these things work, which would certainly help. He seems to think there is no support for this, but, for example, the chief executive of the Glasgow Chamber of Commerce says that if motorway tolls are a way of getting vital arteries open, then the chamber would support it, providing that revenues raised went directly into transport infrastructure projects.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C706577", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26748, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 500.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26749, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 511.0, "QuestionHeading": "Transport", "QuestionHeadingID": 26750, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 512.0, "DisplayOrder": 512.0, "ID": 26750, "ParentID": 26749 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 539.0, "ContributionID": 706577, "EditedText": "£900?", "EditedTextHTML": "£900?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C706581", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26748, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 500.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26749, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 511.0, "QuestionHeading": "Governance of Scotland", "QuestionHeadingID": 26751, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 543.0, "DisplayOrder": 543.0, "ID": 26751, "ParentID": 26749 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 548.0, "ContributionID": 706581, "EditedText": "The word ring-fencing is used in many contexts, but this is not one in which I would use it. Our colleagues in the Liberal Democrats have very strong views, as does everyone in this chamber, on higher education finance. We have made it very clear that the Cubie committee will be asked to look in depth at the matter, as was requested by a whole range of higher education institutions who rejected the pellmell rush to judgment that the Conservatives were in favour of. The conclusions will be examined by the cabinet and we will look for ways to proceed. I know that the opposition parties look with hope at that process. I look on it with hope as well, but for rather different reasons.", "EditedTextHTML": "The word ring-fencing is used in many contexts, but this is not one in which I would use it. Our colleagues in the Liberal Democrats have very strong views, as does everyone in this chamber, on higher education finance. We have made it very clear that the Cubie committee will be asked to look in depth at the matter, as was requested by a whole range of higher education institutions who rejected the pellmell rush to judgment that the Conservatives were in favour of. The conclusions will be examined by the cabinet and we will look for ways to proceed. I know that the opposition parties look with hope at that process. I look on it with hope as well, but for rather different reasons.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1878E208P502C706595", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26748, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 500.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26749, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 511.0, "QuestionHeading": "Scottish Civic Forum", "QuestionHeadingID": 26752, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 562.0, "DisplayOrder": 562.0, "ID": 26752, "ParentID": 26749 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Dr Winnie", "ID": 1878, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Winnie Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 577.0, "ContributionID": 706595, "EditedText": "On a point of order. With all respect, that is not a proper answer. We are in parties in this chamber and the parties have names. We could start playing funny games with this if you do not rule that it is out of order for the wrong name to be given to a party.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. With all respect, that is not a proper answer. We are in parties in this chamber and the parties have names. We could start playing funny games with this if you do not rule that it is out of order for the wrong name to be given to a party.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706597", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Cultural Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26753, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 581.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 581.0, "ID": 26753, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 582.0, "ContributionID": 706597, "EditedText": "We now move on to the debate on motion S1M-107, in the name of Mr Sam Galbraith, on a national cultural strategy.", "EditedTextHTML": "We now move on to the debate on motion S1M-107, in the name of Mr Sam Galbraith, on a national cultural strategy.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1775E171P452C706599", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Cultural Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26753, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 581.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 581.0, "ID": 26753, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeod, Fiona", "ID": 1775, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona McLeod", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona McLeod (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 587.0, "ContributionID": 706599, "EditedText": "I have asked this question before in relation to another matter. Mr Galbraith is talking about consulting throughout the country. When we talked about the education improvement bill, he said that he would consult young people. I have to say that the efforts at consultation have not been inclusive of young people. Will Mr Galbraith assure us that consultation on the cultural strategy will be better than that on the education bill, whose website has received only 24 messages?", "EditedTextHTML": "I have asked this question before in relation to another matter. Mr Galbraith is talking about consulting throughout the country. When we talked about the education improvement bill, he said that he would consult young people. I have to say that the efforts at consultation have not been inclusive of young people. Will Mr Galbraith assure us that consultation on the cultural strategy will be better than that on the education bill, whose website has received only 24 messages?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C706600", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Cultural Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26753, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 581.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 581.0, "ID": 26753, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Galbraith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 589.0, "ContributionID": 706600, "EditedText": "I must explain to Fiona that it is in the nature of consultation for responses to be submitted in a rush at the end, rather than at this stage. It is not true to say that the consultation has not been inclusive—it has been very inclusive. We are only at the start of the process—we have September and October still to come—and we should resist rushing to judgment while it is still in its infancy. I can assure members that everyone will be included. This strategy will not belong to anyone in particular—it will belong to the people of Scotland. It will not be the property of the Scottish Executive or of the Scottish Parliament; we want ideas from everyone. We want to reach as many people as possible, whether they be arts professionals, amateurs, large organisations, neighbourhood groups, multinational organisations or small businesses. We anticipate a healthy debate and even some argument. This Parliament, as the assembly of elected representatives of the people of Scotland, has its own role to play. We can reach people in all parts of Scotland and conduct debates with our constituents. I hope very much that that will happen. We are now at the start of the intensive process that I have described. Once the initial consultation is over, we will consider the responses that we have received. Certain themes or strands may then emerge on which we want to seek further views and advice. Our strategy will then be drawn up, taking into account the views of those who have responded. We intend to produce a strategy document by the middle of next year. It is important to stress that the process will not end with the production of that document. To be of any use, the strategy will need to be revisited regularly and updated when necessary. It may be helpful if I take this opportunity to outline those areas on which we wish to focus particular attention. As I have said, the process is to be as inclusive and far-reaching as possible. We will certainly look at what have traditionally been considered to be the arts. We will also want to look at architecture, the built heritage, education, social inclusion, creative industries and the links that can be built up between those different areas. In all that, our duty is to sustain quality and achievement and to ensure that everyone who wishes to participate in the arts is able to do so. Accessibility in the widest possible sense is the key to any future strategy. We want to ensure that those people who wish to participate in the arts in any way have an opportunity to do so and do not feel excluded. We have a great wealth in our museums, galleries, libraries and built heritage. We have a rich and diverse built heritage of ancient monuments, archaeological sites, landscapes, historic buildings and townscapes, all of which provide an important, enriching, authentic and tangible record of the peoples of Scotland. The built heritage provides a sense of place and community throughout Scotland, in both urban and rural areas. It makes a major contribution to the sense of national identity that we all possess. Indeed, many of our cultural institutions are located in buildings of historical or architectural distinction. Our stock of castles, great houses, abbeys and historic towns and villages is one of the principal reasons why tourists come to Scotland. There is thus a major economic as well as an intrinsic cultural value to our built heritage. There are also strong arguments, rooted in the principle of sustainability, for the retention and, where appropriate, re-use of our historic buildings. We must strive for excellence in our new buildings, because they will be our monuments to future generations—our young people must be proud of them in times to come. That is why we made a commitment in the \"Partnership for Scotland\" agreement to develop a first-ever national policy on architecture for Scotland. Since we made that commitment, we have been preparing a framework document as the first step in the development of such a policy. The document will be published on 20 September and will set out the Government's views on the benefits of good architecture. It will also describe the potential role of Government in the promotion of policy and outline a framework for action. The purpose of the document will be to raise awareness of the importance of good building design and to stimulate debate on the many issues that are involved in the making of good architecture. Scotland is a nation at the cutting edge of technology, which, too, has links with culture. The value of the creative economy to Scotland is estimated at £5.3 billion and 91,000 jobs. However, there is potential for further growth and I am confident that the national cultural strategy can assist in further developing employment in the sector. The market for culture is highly competitive and we must consider ways in which Scotland can promote and market its culture. We must use the opportunities that are offered by new technology, such as the internet and CD-ROMs, and by software design and development to raise the international awareness of our intellectual and cultural products. The Scottish cultural resources network, which I opened a few years ago, is a wonderful example of what can be achieved in that area. We are an old and proud nation with an opportunity to build a new and even greater future. We should put in place a sound framework for the future of our culture. The consultation process that we are engaged in is the first step in designing a national strategy for the future development of Scotland's culture. We are giving all Scotland's people a chance to participate. We need to do that, and we need to do it now. I move,That the Parliament agrees that culture, in all its diversity, has a central role in shaping a sense of community and civic pride in the new Scotland, and a contribution to make to its prosperity, health and cohesion; welcomes the Executive's proposals to develop a national cultural strategy for all of Scotland's people, and endorses the far- reaching consultation process on which Scottish Ministers have embarked.", "EditedTextHTML": "I must explain to Fiona that it is in the nature of consultation for responses to be submitted in a rush at the end, rather than at this stage. It is not true to say that the consultation has not been inclusive—it has been very inclusive. We are only at the start of the process—we have September and October still to come—and we should resist rushing to judgment while it is still in its infancy.

I can assure members that everyone will be included. This strategy will not belong to anyone in particular—it will belong to the people of Scotland. It will not be the property of the Scottish Executive or of the Scottish Parliament; we want ideas from everyone. We want to reach as many people as possible, whether they be arts professionals, amateurs, large organisations, neighbourhood groups, multinational organisations or small businesses. We anticipate a healthy debate and even some argument.

This Parliament, as the assembly of elected representatives of the people of Scotland, has its own role to play. We can reach people in all parts of Scotland and conduct debates with our constituents. I hope very much that that will happen.

We are now at the start of the intensive process that I have described. Once the initial consultation is over, we will consider the responses that we have received. Certain themes or strands may then emerge on which we want to seek further views and advice. Our strategy will then be drawn up, taking into account the views of those who have responded. We intend to produce a strategy document by the middle of next year. It is important to stress that the process will not end with the production of that document. To be of any use, the strategy will need to be revisited regularly and updated when necessary.

It may be helpful if I take this opportunity to outline those areas on which we wish to focus particular attention. As I have said, the process is to be as inclusive and far-reaching as possible. We will certainly look at what have traditionally been considered to be the arts. We will also want to look at architecture, the built heritage, education, social inclusion, creative industries and the links that can be built up between those different areas.

In all that, our duty is to sustain quality and achievement and to ensure that everyone who wishes to participate in the arts is able to do so. Accessibility in the widest possible sense is the key to any future strategy. We want to ensure that those people who wish to participate in the arts in any way have an opportunity to do so and do not feel excluded.

We have a great wealth in our museums, galleries, libraries and built heritage. We have a rich and diverse built heritage of ancient monuments, archaeological sites, landscapes, historic buildings and townscapes, all of which provide an important, enriching, authentic and tangible record of the peoples of Scotland. The built heritage provides a sense of place and community throughout Scotland, in both urban and rural areas. It makes a major contribution to the sense of national identity that we all possess. Indeed, many of our cultural institutions are located in buildings of historical or architectural distinction.

Our stock of castles, great houses, abbeys and historic towns and villages is one of the principal reasons why tourists come to Scotland. There is thus a major economic as well as an intrinsic cultural value to our built heritage. There are also strong arguments, rooted in the principle of sustainability, for the retention and, where appropriate, re-use of our historic buildings.

We must strive for excellence in our new buildings, because they will be our monuments to future generations—our young people must be proud of them in times to come. That is why we made a commitment in the \"Partnership for Scotland\" agreement to develop a first-ever national policy on architecture for Scotland. Since we made that commitment, we have been preparing a framework document as the first step in the development of such a policy. The document will be published on 20 September and will set out the Government's views on the benefits of good architecture. It will also describe the potential role of Government in the promotion of policy and outline a framework for action. The

purpose of the document will be to raise awareness of the importance of good building design and to stimulate debate on the many issues that are involved in the making of good architecture.

Scotland is a nation at the cutting edge of technology, which, too, has links with culture. The value of the creative economy to Scotland is estimated at £5.3 billion and 91,000 jobs. However, there is potential for further growth and I am confident that the national cultural strategy can assist in further developing employment in the sector.

The market for culture is highly competitive and we must consider ways in which Scotland can promote and market its culture. We must use the opportunities that are offered by new technology, such as the internet and CD-ROMs, and by software design and development to raise the international awareness of our intellectual and cultural products. The Scottish cultural resources network, which I opened a few years ago, is a wonderful example of what can be achieved in that area.

We are an old and proud nation with an opportunity to build a new and even greater future. We should put in place a sound framework for the future of our culture. The consultation process that we are engaged in is the first step in designing a national strategy for the future development of Scotland's culture. We are giving all Scotland's people a chance to participate. We need to do that, and we need to do it now.

I move,

That the Parliament agrees that culture, in all its diversity, has a central role in shaping a sense of community and civic pride in the new Scotland, and a contribution to make to its prosperity, health and cohesion; welcomes the Executive's proposals to develop a national cultural strategy for all of Scotland's people, and endorses the far- reaching consultation process on which Scottish Ministers have embarked.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1862E99P179C706632", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Cultural Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26753, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 581.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 581.0, "ID": 26753, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Brankin, Rhona", "ID": 1862, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Midlothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Culture and Sport", "SpeakerName": "Rhona Brankin", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Rhona Brankin: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 671.0, "ContributionID": 706632, "EditedText": "No, I have an awful lot to get through.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I have an awful lot to get through.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C706604", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Cultural Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26753, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 581.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 581.0, "ID": 26753, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Brian Monteith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 599.0, "ContributionID": 706604, "EditedText": "Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, especially for the full title of the party. On first impressions, there seems little with which to disagree in the Scottish Executive's motion. To paraphrase Ben Wallace's words yesterday, I am in favour of culture. It is understandable that the Scottish Executive should seek to have a strategy for culture. However, the motion contains a fundamental flaw in that it appears to have been drafted on the premise that culture is a finite entity and a commodity that can be planned, shaped and organised by the Government. That might not be the intention of the motion; we will wait to find out what happens when the cultural strategy is published. Culture is the product of our nation's artistic, political and economic history, and of the spontaneous and independent contributions of talented individuals. As that august Scottish historian, Michael Fry, said, culture is not something conjured up by an official statement or a subsidy. Culture is sucked in with the mother's milk. It is in the air. It is lived and breathed. Without such sustenance, it is unlikely that anything else will keep it alive. The role of the Scottish Executive should be to preserve and promote our historical record and artistic achievements, and to foster an open society in which new contributions can be made without requiring political endorsement. A cultural strategy might be required by the Government, but only in the same way as the best incomes policy is no incomes policy. The Government should try to encourage excellence, to nurture and enable, but it should do so at arm's length. It should not seek to create or endorse culture so that it becomes official. The last decades of old Scotland before the union of crowns in 1603 lent an enduring shape to national culture. John Knox's cultural revolution, which is known to us as the reformation, stressed that people should be taught to read the bible for themselves. That generated a literate population, which was better educated than any other in Europe and gave Scots a fascination with the problems of good and evil—with the dual nature of man. It produced a highly intellectual—not elitist— culture: a democratic intellect that is still alive in the 20th century. That culture was truly popular; it took deep root and flourishes to this day. The strength of our culture then was proved by the fact that it did not need a state to support it. It was not a disaster when the king and his court, who had been the main sponsors of artistic works, moved to London in 1603, nor was our culture damaged when Scotland entered into union with England in 1707—quite the reverse. In 1707 the greatest days of Scottish culture lay in the future. As the lives of ordinary Scots were enriched by the union and the empire, so was their culture enriched. Scottish culture has never been dictated by an elite or by the policy of the state, nor should it be. Scottish culture has always been what the Scottish people say it will be. If Scottish culture is to remain true to its traditions, we should continue to keep the state at arm's length. Politicians and bureaucrats can foretell the future of our culture no more than they can predict anything else. The present flourishing condition of the Scottish novel, theatre and films owes nothing to political interference. Politicians in Scotland have more often tried to ban artistic innovation than to encourage it, and I know that some members of the Conservative party have tried to do that, too.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, especially for the full title of the party.

On first impressions, there seems little with which to disagree in the Scottish Executive's motion. To paraphrase Ben Wallace's words yesterday, I am in favour of culture. It is understandable that the Scottish Executive should seek to have a strategy for culture.

However, the motion contains a fundamental flaw in that it appears to have been drafted on the premise that culture is a finite entity and a commodity that can be planned, shaped and organised by the Government. That might not be the intention of the motion; we will wait to find out what happens when the cultural strategy is published. Culture is the product of our nation's artistic, political and economic history, and of the spontaneous and independent contributions of talented individuals.

As that august Scottish historian, Michael Fry, said, culture is not something conjured up by an official statement or a subsidy. Culture is sucked in with the mother's milk. It is in the air. It is lived and breathed. Without such sustenance, it is unlikely that anything else will keep it alive.

The role of the Scottish Executive should be to preserve and promote our historical record and artistic achievements, and to foster an open society in which new contributions can be made without requiring political endorsement. A cultural strategy might be required by the Government, but only in the same way as the best incomes policy is no incomes policy. The Government should try to encourage excellence, to nurture and enable, but it should do so at arm's length. It should not seek to create or endorse culture so that it becomes official.

The last decades of old Scotland before the union of crowns in 1603 lent an enduring shape to national culture. John Knox's cultural revolution, which is known to us as the reformation, stressed that people should be taught to read the bible for themselves. That generated a literate population, which was better educated than any other in Europe and gave Scots a fascination with the problems of good and evil—with the dual nature of man. It produced a highly intellectual—not elitist— culture: a democratic intellect that is still alive in the 20th century. That culture was truly popular; it took deep root and flourishes to this day.

The strength of our culture then was proved by the fact that it did not need a state to support it. It was not a disaster when the king and his court, who had been the main sponsors of artistic works, moved to London in 1603, nor was our culture damaged when Scotland entered into union with England in 1707—quite the reverse. In 1707 the greatest days of Scottish culture lay in the future. As the lives of ordinary Scots were enriched by the union and the empire, so was their culture enriched.

Scottish culture has never been dictated by an elite or by the policy of the state, nor should it be. Scottish culture has always been what the Scottish people say it will be. If Scottish culture is to remain true to its traditions, we should continue to keep the state at arm's length.

Politicians and bureaucrats can foretell the future of our culture no more than they can predict anything else. The present flourishing condition of the Scottish novel, theatre and films owes nothing to political interference. Politicians in Scotland have more often tried to ban artistic innovation than to encourage it, and I know that some members of the Conservative party have tried to do that, too.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C706605", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Cultural Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26753, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 581.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 581.0, "ID": 26753, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Galbraith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 601.0, "ContributionID": 706605, "EditedText": "Indeed.", "EditedTextHTML": "Indeed.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1768E72P274C706608", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Cultural Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26753, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 581.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 581.0, "ID": 26753, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Murray, Elaine", "ID": 1768, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumfries" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Murray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Elaine Murray (Dumfries) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 608.0, "ContributionID": 706608, "EditedText": "I should declare an interest. In the past, I was the spokesperson on cultural issues for the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities. I am therefore delighted that a national cultural strategy is being proposed. Some members of other parties have misunderstood the purpose of a national cultural strategy, which is to determine how the Parliament and the Government can support cultural activity in our country. It is not about how we can control culture; it is about how we can support culture. In the months before the Scottish Parliament came into being, there was much discussion among interested parties such as COSLA, the Scottish Arts Council, the Scottish Museums Council, the Scottish Library Information Council and the voluntary sector, about the way in which Parliament should handle culture. Many people argued for the appointment of a minister for culture and for a national cultural strategy. I am pleased that the Parliament is making progress. It has delivered a minister for culture and is now undertaking a consultation exercise on a cultural strategy. I stress that we are still at the consultation stage, and have not yet defined the strategy. Culture is much misunderstood. The word is frequently used as an alternative for the arts and it is often thought of as a minority interest of the urban middle classes. In fact, when she heard that there was to be a debate on culture, one member—who is not here now—said that she was not interested in culture. That is unfortunate. The proposed nationwide consultation on a national cultural strategy gives us an opportunity to emphasise that culture is much more than a minority interest. Everyone has some form of exposure to culture, at very least the culture of their own community and its history. Culture interprets and illuminates a community's experiences; at a national level, it expresses Scotland's history and environment. Indeed, it has often been asserted that the Scottish cultural identity played a major part in bringing about the conditions that created the Scottish Parliament. At the moment, some members of the press might think that that is a bad thing, but I think that culture played an important part in bringing our Parliament about. Last week I went to see a play called \"The Derners\" at the festival—that is the Langholm arts festival, not the Edinburgh international festival. The play is along the lines of \"The Steamie\" and is about the experiences of women working as darners in the town's textile industry in the 1950s. Apart from being a very funny and excellent performance by ordinary, local people—by talented people who sing and act as amateurs and who enjoy it—it demonstrated for me two important aspects of culture. First, it enabled members of the community to celebrate their own culture—their traditions and history. Secondly, it allowed me, as an outsider, to experience and understand better the experiences of that community. Those are two important facets of culture. That is why promoting and widening access to culture is so important. Engaging in cultural activity helps us to understand each other and ourselves better. It improves our self-esteem and our tolerance and appreciation of the different cultures of others. That is why cultural activity must be part of the strategic objectives of the Parliament; the minister mentioned its connection with health, lifelong learning, social inclusion, tourism and enterprise. The Executive is to be congratulated on starting the consultation process so early in the life of the Parliament. A few weeks ago I was very pleased to hear on the radio the minister for culture giving her commitment that the consultation process would be thorough and extensive and would stretch all the way from Ullapool to Dumfries. I know that people in Dumfries are already looking forward to engaging in that consultation process. Scotland has many traditions, cultures and participants. The national agencies, local authorities—which are extremely important in the cultural scene—and the voluntary sector all play important roles in the provision of cultural opportunity. Scotland's culture is one of our greatest assets in attracting visitors, but it is much more than that: valuing and understanding our culture in all its diversity allows us to understand where we come from. Once we have done that, culture might also help us to determine where we wish to go.", "EditedTextHTML": "I should declare an interest. In the past, I was the spokesperson on cultural issues for the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities. I am therefore delighted that a national cultural strategy is being proposed.

Some members of other parties have misunderstood the purpose of a national cultural strategy, which is to determine how the Parliament and the Government can support cultural activity in our country. It is not about how we can control culture; it is about how we can support culture.

In the months before the Scottish Parliament came into being, there was much discussion among interested parties such as COSLA, the Scottish Arts Council, the Scottish Museums Council, the Scottish Library Information Council and the voluntary sector, about the way in which Parliament should handle culture. Many people argued for the appointment of a minister for culture and for a national cultural strategy. I am pleased that the Parliament is making progress. It has delivered a minister for culture and is now undertaking a consultation exercise on a cultural strategy. I stress that we are still at the consultation stage, and have not yet defined the strategy.

Culture is much misunderstood. The word is frequently used as an alternative for the arts and it is often thought of as a minority interest of the urban middle classes. In fact, when she heard that there was to be a debate on culture, one member—who is not here now—said that she was not interested in culture. That is unfortunate.

The proposed nationwide consultation on a national cultural strategy gives us an opportunity to emphasise that culture is much more than a minority interest.

Everyone has some form of exposure to culture, at very least the culture of their own community and its history. Culture interprets and illuminates a community's experiences; at a national level, it expresses Scotland's history and environment. Indeed, it has often been asserted that the Scottish cultural identity played a major part in bringing about the conditions that created the Scottish Parliament. At the moment, some members of the press might think that that is a bad thing, but I think that culture played an important part in bringing our Parliament about.

Last week I went to see a play called \"The Derners\" at the festival—that is the Langholm arts

festival, not the Edinburgh international festival. The play is along the lines of \"The Steamie\" and is about the experiences of women working as darners in the town's textile industry in the 1950s. Apart from being a very funny and excellent performance by ordinary, local people—by talented people who sing and act as amateurs and who enjoy it—it demonstrated for me two important aspects of culture. First, it enabled members of the community to celebrate their own culture—their traditions and history. Secondly, it allowed me, as an outsider, to experience and understand better the experiences of that community. Those are two important facets of culture. That is why promoting and widening access to culture is so important.

Engaging in cultural activity helps us to understand each other and ourselves better. It improves our self-esteem and our tolerance and appreciation of the different cultures of others. That is why cultural activity must be part of the strategic objectives of the Parliament; the minister mentioned its connection with health, lifelong learning, social inclusion, tourism and enterprise.

The Executive is to be congratulated on starting the consultation process so early in the life of the Parliament. A few weeks ago I was very pleased to hear on the radio the minister for culture giving her commitment that the consultation process would be thorough and extensive and would stretch all the way from Ullapool to Dumfries. I know that people in Dumfries are already looking forward to engaging in that consultation process.

Scotland has many traditions, cultures and participants. The national agencies, local authorities—which are extremely important in the cultural scene—and the voluntary sector all play important roles in the provision of cultural opportunity. Scotland's culture is one of our greatest assets in attracting visitors, but it is much more than that: valuing and understanding our culture in all its diversity allows us to understand where we come from. Once we have done that, culture might also help us to determine where we wish to go.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2056E57P84C706611", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Cultural Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26753, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 581.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 581.0, "ID": 26753, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James", "ID": 2056, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "James Douglas-Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Lord James Douglas-Hamilton (Lothians) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 617.0, "ContributionID": 706611, "EditedText": "It is true that the Scots are entitled to be proud of their heritage—past, present and future— and, as Trish has said, that heritage should be inclusive. I agree with Richard Lochhead's comments on the importance of the film industry to Scotland. As a vital part of our culture, that industry has tremendous potential to shape the country's economic and social development. Films such as \"Braveheart\", \"Rob Roy\" and \"Loch Ness\" have given a boost to tourism in Scotland, while other films such as \"Chariots of Fire\" and \"Local Hero\", which have strong Scottish characteristics, were important in giving expression to Scotland's identity.Some of Scotland's film-makers have also received recognition for outstanding films such as \"Mrs Brown\", \"Shallow Grave\", \"Trainspotting\", \"My Name Is Joe\" and \"Ratcatcher\", which recently won a prize at the Edinburgh film festival. Edinburgh now hosts film premieres that might previously have gone elsewhere. Furthermore, the recent promotion of \"Gregory's Two Girls\" by the charismatic Bill Forsyth gives further evidence of the imagination and the undoubted creativity in the Scottish film industry. Just now, the film and television industry employs 4,000 people in Scotland and the national lottery's support for film-making and the creation of Channel 4's office in Glasgow should lead to more job opportunities. The activities of Scottish Screen, which was set up by the previous Administration, play a huge role and now cover the whole range of film and television culture. It is essential to enhance the visual arts to give greater stature to Scotland's culture. Scotland has the capacity to play a leading role in the film industry and commitment from ministers will make that a reality. As the Minister for Finance is providing £80 million extra for education, I ask ministers to use part of that funding to increase Scottish Screen's grant, which would enable that organisation not just to produce an innovative development programme, but to assist with educational projects. I will—if I may—reveal a secret of the past. During the previous Westminster Government, one of the women engaged in providing hospitality in Bute House took it very much in her stride when she had to welcome former Presidents Gorbachev and Mitterrand, but when she heard that Mel Gibson of \"Braveheart\" might be coming, there was almost uncontrollable excitement. I suspect that that might have been the representative reaction of many Scots. Not only do films made in Scotland create employment, encourage tourism and provide recreation, enjoyment and entertainment, they give a higher profile to Scotland's way of life. I call on ministers to give Scottish Screen and the Scottish film industry all their support, which it strongly deserves. It is an excellent opportunity for our country to grasp and I hope that the ministers will respond positively.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is true that the Scots are entitled to be proud of their heritage—past, present and future— and, as Trish has said, that heritage should be inclusive. I agree with Richard Lochhead's comments on the importance of the film industry to Scotland. As a vital part of our culture, that industry has tremendous potential to shape the country's economic and social development. Films such as \"Braveheart\", \"Rob Roy\" and \"Loch Ness\" have given a boost to tourism in Scotland, while other films such as \"Chariots of Fire\" and \"Local Hero\", which have strong Scottish characteristics, were important in giving expression to Scotland's

identity.

Some of Scotland's film-makers have also received recognition for outstanding films such as \"Mrs Brown\", \"Shallow Grave\", \"Trainspotting\", \"My Name Is Joe\" and \"Ratcatcher\", which recently won a prize at the Edinburgh film festival. Edinburgh now hosts film premieres that might previously have gone elsewhere. Furthermore, the recent promotion of \"Gregory's Two Girls\" by the charismatic Bill Forsyth gives further evidence of the imagination and the undoubted creativity in the Scottish film industry.

Just now, the film and television industry employs 4,000 people in Scotland and the national lottery's support for film-making and the creation of Channel 4's office in Glasgow should lead to more job opportunities. The activities of Scottish Screen, which was set up by the previous Administration, play a huge role and now cover the whole range of film and television culture.

It is essential to enhance the visual arts to give greater stature to Scotland's culture. Scotland has the capacity to play a leading role in the film industry and commitment from ministers will make that a reality. As the Minister for Finance is providing £80 million extra for education, I ask ministers to use part of that funding to increase Scottish Screen's grant, which would enable that organisation not just to produce an innovative development programme, but to assist with educational projects.

I will—if I may—reveal a secret of the past. During the previous Westminster Government, one of the women engaged in providing hospitality in Bute House took it very much in her stride when she had to welcome former Presidents Gorbachev and Mitterrand, but when she heard that Mel Gibson of \"Braveheart\" might be coming, there was almost uncontrollable excitement. I suspect that that might have been the representative reaction of many Scots. Not only do films made in Scotland create employment, encourage tourism and provide recreation, enjoyment and entertainment, they give a higher profile to Scotland's way of life.

I call on ministers to give Scottish Screen and the Scottish film industry all their support, which it strongly deserves. It is an excellent opportunity for our country to grasp and I hope that the ministers will respond positively.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706629", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Cultural Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26753, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 581.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 581.0, "ID": 26753, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 665.0, "ContributionID": 706629, "EditedText": "Order.", "EditedTextHTML": "Order.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2044E178P334C706612", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Cultural Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26753, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 581.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 581.0, "ID": 26753, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jenkins, Ian", "ID": 2044, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ian Jenkins", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ian Jenkins (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 620.0, "ContributionID": 706612, "EditedText": "I welcome \"A National Cultural Strategy\", which Mr Galbraith introduced today. I have heard Ms Brankin talk about this on several occasions—she talks a good game. I am impressed by her commitment to the task ahead. In essence, the document is a celebration and an appreciative comment on Scottish culture. It is a kind of mission statement and it has a mission statement's strengths and weaknesses. It lays out positive aspirations for a national strategy and sets out a basis for consultation. This is a consultation document, although the title may suggest that it is the strategy. I would like to give Ms Brankin and Mr Galbraith one piece of advice. Someone said that this was a closed document, but I think that it is almost too open-ended and might be difficult to respond to. I remember that when the McIntosh commission sought people's opinions it asked questions. I understand this document, but I do not quite know what I am being asked and think that a framework of questions would help. The place of government in the arts is something that we must be careful of. It should be at arms' length. Its place is not to direct the arts, but to create a climate in which the arts can flourish and artists can put down roots. We want to ensure that the strategy is inclusive. It needs to be geographically inclusive, covering the Borders to the Highlands and the Shetland islands. It must embrace the widest possible range of cultural activities. In scale, it should encompass great orchestras, town bands, ballet dancing and line dancing. The strategy must not be elitist, but it must protect minority interests as, in essence, many of the arts will appeal only to minority interests and a majority decision might swamp good quality things. We should not be talking only of high culture. As Trish Godman said, the strategy must be socially inclusive. As she spoke, I thought of an occasion about a fortnight ago when I went to Galashiels to launch the publication of a book, \"New Horizons\", by a mental health charity. It contained touching and moving poetry. Life-enhancing art was put into the book with good backing and something was produced which raised the self-confidence and self-esteem of people who needed that help. How do we foster talent when we find it? I do not know the answer to that and am only saying that it is a question to consider. When we get a talented musician or actress, we must try to ensure that a promising career is not cut off because of lack of funds or opportunity. We should give them the opportunity to foster their talent in Scotland in order for them to be able to practise it beyond, if that is what they wish. The national strategy should start in schools and village halls and reach up to national institutions, such as the National Library and Scottish Ballet. I hope, like Brian Montieth, that a national theatre will be considered. I would like to tell members a story. Ten days orso ago, I sat in the rather psychedelic surroundings of the Hub listening, for about 15 minutes, to a Japanese dance director who could not speak English. For a wee while, it was slightly embarrassing, then somehow the man's artistic integrity turned his speech into a strangely eloquent declaration. He kept saying, \"I am Japanese. I am individual. I am in Scotland.\" hope that our arts strategy will allow our talented youngsters and our artists to be national, to have their roots in our nation, to be individual, to be creative and to be able to use their talents on an international stage to universal acclaim.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome \"A National Cultural Strategy\", which Mr Galbraith introduced today. I have heard Ms Brankin talk about this on several occasions—she talks a good game. I am impressed by her commitment to the task ahead.

In essence, the document is a celebration and an appreciative comment on Scottish culture. It is a kind of mission statement and it has a mission statement's strengths and weaknesses. It lays out positive aspirations for a national strategy and sets out a basis for consultation. This is a consultation document, although the title may suggest that it is the strategy.

I would like to give Ms Brankin and Mr Galbraith one piece of advice. Someone said that this was a closed document, but I think that it is almost too open-ended and might be difficult to respond to. I remember that when the McIntosh commission sought people's opinions it asked questions. I understand this document, but I do not quite know what I am being asked and think that a framework of questions would help.

The place of government in the arts is something that we must be careful of. It should be at arms' length. Its place is not to direct the arts, but to create a climate in which the arts can flourish and artists can put down roots.

We want to ensure that the strategy is inclusive. It needs to be geographically inclusive, covering the Borders to the Highlands and the Shetland islands. It must embrace the widest possible range of cultural activities. In scale, it should encompass great orchestras, town bands, ballet dancing and line dancing. The strategy must not be elitist, but it must protect minority interests as, in essence, many of the arts will appeal only to minority interests and a majority decision might swamp good quality things.

We should not be talking only of high culture. As Trish Godman said, the strategy must be socially inclusive. As she spoke, I thought of an occasion about a fortnight ago when I went to Galashiels to launch the publication of a book, \"New Horizons\", by a mental health charity. It contained touching and moving poetry. Life-enhancing art was put into the book with good backing and something was produced which raised the self-confidence and self-esteem of people who needed that help.

How do we foster talent when we find it? I do not know the answer to that and am only saying that it is a question to consider. When we get a talented musician or actress, we must try to ensure that a promising career is not cut off because of lack of funds or opportunity. We should give them the opportunity to foster their talent in Scotland in order for them to be able to practise it beyond, if that is what they wish.

The national strategy should start in schools and village halls and reach up to national institutions, such as the National Library and Scottish Ballet. I hope, like Brian Montieth, that a national theatre will be considered.

I would like to tell members a story. Ten days or

so ago, I sat in the rather psychedelic surroundings of the Hub listening, for about 15 minutes, to a Japanese dance director who could not speak English. For a wee while, it was slightly embarrassing, then somehow the man's artistic integrity turned his speech into a strangely eloquent declaration. He kept saying, \"I am Japanese. I am individual. I am in Scotland.\" hope that our arts strategy will allow our talented youngsters and our artists to be national, to have their roots in our nation, to be individual, to be creative and to be able to use their talents on an international stage to universal acclaim.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2118E157P454C706614", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Cultural Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26753, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 581.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 581.0, "ID": 26753, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Quinan, Mr Lloyd", "ID": 2118, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lloyd Quinan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Lloyd Quinan (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 626.0, "ContributionID": 706614, "EditedText": "The one issue that slightly concerns me about this debate is that there has been little or no discussion about practitioners of the arts or artists. There has been an awful lot of talk about meaningful, to-be-desired initiatives and consultations, yet no mention of the Broadcasting Entertainment Cinematograph and Theatre Union, Equity, the Musicians' Union or of our individual artists. For nine years, I was an elected official of Equity and during those years—which were principally years of Conservative Governments, although there was one period of a real Labour Government in early 1979—we never had an opportunity to develop our cultural strategy. The Scottish committee of Equity was determined that there should be such a strategy for Scotland, which would be committed to the development of the three national performing arts companies—ballet, opera and the national theatre. I will give members a few bits of background information about the people we are talking about but paying no attention to. The average earnings of an artistic worker in Scotland in any year is £8,500 and most are unemployed for 22 weeks in any year. All artistic workers have extreme difficulties with the Inland Revenue and the Benefits Agency. I make a plea to the Executive: that it addresses the issues of our artists and the artistic community on the reserved areas of benefits, income tax and other taxation matters. The Executive should take a leaf out of the Irish book, as Ireland has been extremely successful over the past 20 to 30 years. The creative industries make up 5 per cent of this country's industry. I am perplexed Sam's figure of 91,000 full-time jobs as, according to Scottish Enterprise's creative industry team, in July 1999 there were 70,000 full-time jobs. I assume that the team has not conducted a new study since then. There were only 64,310 jobs in food and drink; and there used to be 41,000 in textiles—until the advent of the Labour Government—and 46,000 in electronics. The arts are vital to this country and, more important, people employed in the arts live and work in Scotland, although we do not give them the opportunity to work as often as they wish. For example, in 1997 131 contracts were issued to members of Equity, of whom there are just over 1,600 in Scotland, by Scottish producing companies, repertory theatres and touring companies. In 1998, 213 contracts were issued. This morning, I was told that Equity expects around about the same figure for this year, because the Scottish Arts Council, under its current regime, spends an enormous amount of money on consultation, management and bureaucracy, but little or nothing on the production of theatre works. I shall quote from this year's annual report for Equity in Scotland: \"too many companies are cutting back on the number and size of productions. Although there seems to be plenty of lottery money to improve buildings and facilities, there is standstill or less money to run these companies, and the first things to be cut seem to be productions and actors' wages.\" The report goes on to say:\"There has been an increase of administrative bureaucracy and a decrease of the production which the public pays to see. Of course audiences are falling, there is less for them to see!\" I am also shocked to discover that there is not a single practitioner among the people who are on the focus group. I suppose that we can rejoice in the fact that the Minister for Finance's wife—", "EditedTextHTML": "The one issue that slightly concerns me about this debate is that there has been little or no discussion about practitioners of the arts or artists. There has been an awful lot of talk about meaningful, to-be-desired initiatives and consultations, yet no mention of the Broadcasting Entertainment Cinematograph and Theatre Union, Equity, the Musicians' Union or of our individual artists.

For nine years, I was an elected official of Equity and during those years—which were principally years of Conservative Governments, although there was one period of a real Labour Government in early 1979—we never had an opportunity to develop our cultural strategy. The Scottish committee of Equity was determined that there should be such a strategy for Scotland, which would be committed to the development of the three national performing arts companies—ballet, opera and the national theatre.

I will give members a few bits of background information about the people we are talking about but paying no attention to. The average earnings of an artistic worker in Scotland in any year is £8,500 and most are unemployed for 22 weeks in any year. All artistic workers have extreme difficulties with the Inland Revenue and the Benefits Agency. I make a plea to the Executive: that it addresses the issues of our artists and the artistic community on the reserved areas of benefits, income tax and other taxation matters. The Executive should take a leaf out of the Irish book, as Ireland has been extremely successful over the past 20 to 30 years.

The creative industries make up 5 per cent of this country's industry. I am perplexed Sam's figure of 91,000 full-time jobs as, according to Scottish Enterprise's creative industry team, in July 1999 there were 70,000 full-time jobs. I assume that the team has not conducted a new study since then. There were only 64,310 jobs in food and drink; and there used to be 41,000 in textiles—until the advent of the Labour Government—and 46,000 in electronics.

The arts are vital to this country and, more important, people employed in the arts live and work in Scotland, although we do not give them the opportunity to work as often as they wish. For example, in 1997 131 contracts were issued to members of Equity, of whom there are just over 1,600 in Scotland, by Scottish producing companies, repertory theatres and touring companies. In 1998, 213 contracts were issued. This morning, I was told that Equity expects around about the same figure for this year, because the Scottish Arts Council, under its current regime, spends an enormous amount of money on consultation, management and bureaucracy, but little or nothing on the production of theatre works.

I shall quote from this year's annual report for Equity in Scotland:

\"too many companies are cutting back on the number and size of productions. Although there seems to be plenty of lottery money to improve buildings and facilities, there is standstill or less money to run these companies, and the first things to be cut seem to be productions and actors' wages.\"

The report goes on to say:

\"There has been an increase of administrative bureaucracy and a decrease of the production which the public pays to see. Of course audiences are falling, there is less for them to see!\"

I am also shocked to discover that there is not a single practitioner among the people who are on the focus group. I suppose that we can rejoice in the fact that the Minister for Finance's wife—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1862E99P179C706615", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Cultural Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26753, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 581.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 581.0, "ID": 26753, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Brankin, Rhona", "ID": 1862, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Midlothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Culture and Sport", "SpeakerName": "Rhona Brankin", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Culture and Sport (Rhona Brankin): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 628.0, "ContributionID": 706615, "EditedText": "What about Donnie Munro?", "EditedTextHTML": "What about Donnie Munro?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2118E157P454C706616", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Cultural Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26753, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 581.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 581.0, "ID": 26753, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Quinan, Mr Lloyd", "ID": 2118, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lloyd Quinan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Quinan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 630.0, "ContributionID": 706616, "EditedText": "He is not currently a practitioner.I hope that Bridget McConnell's membership of the focus group might lead to the release of some money to the arts, if she has a word in her husband's ear. I draw members' attention to the following joint motion passed at the annual conferences of the Musicians' Union, Equity and BECTU in Scotland, as it covers one of the most important issues for those organisations: \"In view of the fact that Scotland contributes 10% of the BBC licence fee total but only receives 5% of the total expenditure for BBC TV programmes this AGM of members in Scotland calls on the Governors of the BBC to ensure that the whole licence fee raised in Scotland is spent in Scotland primarily to provide work for our members thereby counter-balancing to some extent the London bias of most media production.\" I hope that the focus group will take that on board and that the Executive will consult the industry's practitioners and the unionised members of BECTU, Equity and the Musicians' Union. I know that that might be difficult for a non- socialist party, but it may well be worth while.", "EditedTextHTML": "He is not currently a practitioner.

I hope that Bridget McConnell's membership of the focus group might lead to the release of some money to the arts, if she has a word in her husband's ear.

I draw members' attention to the following joint motion passed at the annual conferences of the Musicians' Union, Equity and BECTU in Scotland, as it covers one of the most important issues for those organisations:

\"In view of the fact that Scotland contributes 10% of the BBC licence fee total but only receives 5% of the total expenditure for BBC TV programmes this AGM of members in Scotland calls on the Governors of the BBC to ensure that the whole licence fee raised in Scotland is spent in Scotland primarily to provide work for our members thereby counter-balancing to some extent the London bias of most media production.\"

I hope that the focus group will take that on board and that the Executive will consult the industry's practitioners and the unionised members of BECTU, Equity and the Musicians' Union. I know that that might be difficult for a non- socialist party, but it may well be worth while.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2068E171P304C706620", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Cultural Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26753, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 581.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 581.0, "ID": 26753, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stone, Jamie", "ID": 2068, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie Stone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 642.0, "ContributionID": 706620, "EditedText": "I want to comment on what Mike Russell and Brian Monteith said. Mike gave the game away when he said that he found it hard to frame an amendment. I agree. I do not think that he had much opposition to what was being said in the document. He tried hard, but I give him five and a half out of 10. I take issue with Brian Monteith in no uncertain terms. I did not like the tone of his remarks at all. I regard them as extremely dangerous in any civilised society. The state certainly has a role in the arts, as does local government. It was rightly pointed out by Robin Harper—who is not present now—that Beethoven and the rest would not have been successful without public and private patronage. I warn members against Mr Monteith's philosophy. It was Hermann Goering who said, \"When I hear the word culture I reach for my revolver\".Let us not go down that laissez-faire, culture- will-happen-by-itself road. Culture does not happen in that way, and I disassociate myself entirely from Brian Monteith's remarks. I assume that, because it is late in the day, he was not thinking about what he was saying. Other members have referred to the importance of diversity, and that word is in this document. Coming from the Highlands, I am keenly aware of the differences. Mike will know from his visit to the north-west, and Winnie will know from her visit to the Durness games, how different Durness is from Thurso, how different that is from Dingwall, from Banchory, from Lochaber or wherever. As we go forward with the strategy it is desperately important that we guard the rich tapestry that makes up Scotland. Scotland is a diamond with many facets and future generations will curse us if we do not protect and enhance that. So a special plea—please, Rhona, take this on board and guard the special things.It is a courageous document early in the life of Parliament and I am proud to be associated with it. It firmly underpins our direction and gives purpose. I know that Rhona has worked hard on it and I have a lot of respect for what she and Sam are doing. I commend the document.", "EditedTextHTML": "I want to comment on what Mike Russell and Brian Monteith said. Mike gave the game away when he said that he found it hard to frame an amendment. I agree. I do not think that he had much opposition to what was being said in the document. He tried hard, but I give him five and a half out of 10. I take issue with Brian Monteith in no uncertain terms. I did not like the tone of his remarks at all. I regard them as extremely dangerous in any civilised society. The state certainly has a role in the arts, as does local government. It was rightly pointed out by Robin Harper—who is not present now—that Beethoven and the rest would not have been successful without public and private patronage. I warn members against Mr Monteith's philosophy. It was Hermann Goering who said,

\"When I hear the word culture I reach for my revolver\".

Let us not go down that laissez-faire, culture- will-happen-by-itself road. Culture does not happen in that way, and I disassociate myself entirely from Brian Monteith's remarks. I assume that, because it is late in the day, he was not thinking about what he was saying.

Other members have referred to the importance of diversity, and that word is in this document. Coming from the Highlands, I am keenly aware of the differences. Mike will know from his visit to the north-west, and Winnie will know from her visit to the Durness games, how different Durness is from Thurso, how different that is from Dingwall, from Banchory, from Lochaber or wherever. As we go forward with the strategy it is desperately important that we guard the rich tapestry that makes up Scotland. Scotland is a diamond with many facets and future generations will curse us if we do not protect and enhance that. So a special plea—please, Rhona, take this on board and

guard the special things.

It is a courageous document early in the life of Parliament and I am proud to be associated with it. It firmly underpins our direction and gives purpose. I know that Rhona has worked hard on it and I have a lot of respect for what she and Sam are doing. I commend the document.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1754E157P235C706624", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Cultural Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26753, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 581.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 581.0, "ID": 26753, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Peattie, Cathy", "ID": 1754, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Cathy Peattie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Cathy Peattie (Falkirk East) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 652.0, "ContributionID": 706624, "EditedText": "I welcome this strategy. As Mike Russell said, it is right that there should be more consultation. This document is a stepping stone. It is a start. I would have been shouting at the top of my voice if it were a thick document telling us how the arts should be delivered in Scotland, but that is not what it is about; it is about starting the debate and getting people together to look for a way forward. I am sure that people will not be surprised to learn that I am particularly interested in traditional music. Do not worry: I will not sing, I will speak. It is important that we examine traditional music, and not just singing, but story telling. Music is performed in Scotland that tells the story of our family histories. History and culture in Scotland are handed down in our music. In farmland areas, fishing villages and the inner cities, a host of songs tell us what life was like for the people who sang and wrote them. Traditional music is important, and perhaps on another day I will sing some of the songs to you all. Traditional music is an important part of our heritage. Any cultural strategy should nurture and support communities' participation in that music, because traditional music is handed down by our grannies, our grandpas, our aunties, our uncles and all those folk who have gone before us. We must hold on to that. It is important that we recognise artists and those who entertain, but it is important also that the strategy recognises the people of Scotland. Ours is a people's culture and not something that is imported. We recognise the importance of an international culture, but let us dwell on the importance of the people's culture and those who perform. Community is important in Scotland. It plays a vital role in education and in encouraging people to develop their skills and to feel pride in their language. I was pleased to see reference in the document to the Scots language. I hope that we see an end to the chastisement of bairns for using their Scots language—the language they learn in the playground, in their communities and in their homes. Local authorities play a vital role in delivering the arts and working with arts organisations, and I hope that the culture policy will take that into consideration. I urge the minister to ensure that the consultation meetings are not for the great and the good to talk about nice arts in Scotland. The meetings must take place around the country, allowing people to participate. The minister must ensure that the structure of the consultation makes participation easier, so that people can come along and think, \"Somebody listened to what I had to say and the way I said it. My voice is important.\" If we can achieve that, we will have something to be proud of. Mary said that the strategy will grow and change; that it is about confidence and about celebrating Scottish culture. I will not sing, but I will read this poem by Liz Niven: \"We'll ken whaur we cam frae an whaur we ur gan We'll aw hae a say each wumman an man\". Let us celebrate our language, as well as our culture.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome this strategy. As Mike Russell said, it is right that there should be more consultation. This document is a stepping stone. It is a start. I would have been shouting at the top of my voice if it were a thick document telling us how the arts should be delivered in Scotland, but that is not what it is about; it is about starting the debate and getting people together to look for a way forward.

I am sure that people will not be surprised to learn that I am particularly interested in traditional music. Do not worry: I will not sing, I will speak. It is important that we examine traditional music, and not just singing, but story telling. Music is performed in Scotland that tells the story of our family histories. History and culture in Scotland are handed down in our music. In farmland areas, fishing villages and the inner cities, a host of songs tell us what life was like for the people who sang and wrote them. Traditional music is important, and perhaps on another day I will sing some of the songs to you all.

Traditional music is an important part of our heritage. Any cultural strategy should nurture and support communities' participation in that music, because traditional music is handed down by our grannies, our grandpas, our aunties, our uncles and all those folk who have gone before us. We must hold on to that.

It is important that we recognise artists and those who entertain, but it is important also that the strategy recognises the people of Scotland. Ours is a people's culture and not something that is imported. We recognise the importance of an international culture, but let us dwell on the importance of the people's culture and those who perform.

Community is important in Scotland. It plays a vital role in education and in encouraging people to develop their skills and to feel pride in their language. I was pleased to see reference in the document to the Scots language. I hope that we see an end to the chastisement of bairns for using their Scots language—the language they learn in the playground, in their communities and in their homes.

Local authorities play a vital role in delivering the arts and working with arts organisations, and I hope that the culture policy will take that into consideration.

I urge the minister to ensure that the consultation meetings are not for the great and the good to talk about nice arts in Scotland. The meetings must take place around the country, allowing people to participate. The minister must ensure that the structure of the consultation makes participation easier, so that people can come along and think, \"Somebody listened to what I had to say and the way I said it. My voice is important.\" If we can achieve that, we will have something to be proud of. Mary said that the strategy will grow and change; that it is about confidence and about celebrating Scottish culture.

I will not sing, but I will read this poem by Liz Niven:

\"We'll ken whaur we cam frae an whaur we ur gan

We'll aw hae a say each wumman an man\".

Let us celebrate our language, as well as our culture.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C706625", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Cultural Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26753, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 581.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 581.0, "ID": 26753, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr David Davidson (North-East Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 655.0, "ContributionID": 706625, "EditedText": "I read the document and I am afraid that I thought it was gey thin soup but, with a bit of luck, following the range of contributions that we have had today, it will probably evolve into a decent broth fit to stand on. I am particularly concerned by any move towards the prescriptive management of culture in Scotland, in particular by the various lobby groups that seem to have been created artificially to satisfy the needs of funding bodies. We will have to watch that. I agree with Jamie Stone that Scotland has a rich tapestry of regional and sub-regional cultures. Those are expressed through music and verse, through literature and especially through language. Many regional tongues have a structure and a traditional use spanning back over the centuries. My family roots are mostly in the north-east, with a little smattering of border blood. I wish to make a plea for the Doric, which has been already been mentioned today. I know Sandy Stronach well and appreciate the work that he does. The Doric tongue is spoken daily by many in the north-east, especially in the rural areas. As a boy in Aberdeenshire, I spoke two languages: Scots English and Doric. If I had not done so, I would have been isolated from the community. There are distinct differences in Aberdeenshire in the Doric. There is a range from Kincardine up through Deeside and Donside. As for Buchan, I am sure that Mr Salmond will remember the learning curve required when he first stood there as a candidate. Doric is a rich and expressive language. Every member can talk about expressions of style and accents from their areas. People talk about the differences in the dialect between different villages. We have to remember those differences, which carry over into music and verse. We think of the bothy ballads of the north-east, fiddle music and accordion music—every one of us can think of something that we remember from our youth, that may be suppressed today or not encouraged enough. We should expand the cultural diversity at community level in schools and homes and encourage children to be proud of their local culture. When they have confidence in their local culture they can take on board other regional cultures and take part in cultural exchanges. That will make Scotland an even richer place. If Scotland is nothing else, it is the most magnificent hotch-potch of culture in a small landmass, which people find easy to visit and regularly come back to. I think that we will all agree on that. I hope that the Executive approaches the consultation in a way that will enable it to come to conclusions that establish a base to bring real support and encouragement to the freedom and proliferation of the different aspects of our culture. I was particularly taken by Mike Russell's comments and passion about the chaos that can give rise to a natural generation of culture. We do not want an artificial straitjacket of conformity that requires things to be stylised and to fit in a dictionary. That is not what our culture is about. I know that members of the Executive are listening and I welcome the fact that this document has come before the Parliament today. I make one plea to the Executive: I hope that it will ensure that every aspect of Scottish tradition and culture has equal access to support and encouragement. I do not hear calls for a minister for Doric or a minister of Lallans. I appreciate the wonderful force that the Gaelic speakers have brought together to push their cause, but that is only one aspect of our country and I ask that we have uniformity of support for our future culture in Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "I read the document and I am afraid that I thought it was gey thin soup but, with a bit of luck, following the range of contributions that we have had today, it will probably evolve into a decent broth fit to stand on.

I am particularly concerned by any move towards the prescriptive management of culture in Scotland, in particular by the various lobby groups that seem to have been created artificially to satisfy the needs of funding bodies. We will have to watch that.

I agree with Jamie Stone that Scotland has a rich tapestry of regional and sub-regional cultures. Those are expressed through music and verse, through literature and especially through language. Many regional tongues have a structure and a traditional use spanning back over the centuries. My family roots are mostly in the north-east, with a little smattering of border blood.

I wish to make a plea for the Doric, which has been already been mentioned today. I know Sandy Stronach well and appreciate the work that he does. The Doric tongue is spoken daily by many in the north-east, especially in the rural areas. As a boy in Aberdeenshire, I spoke two languages: Scots English and Doric. If I had not done so, I would have been isolated from the community. There are distinct differences in Aberdeenshire in the Doric. There is a range from Kincardine up through Deeside and Donside. As for Buchan, I am sure that Mr Salmond will remember the learning curve required when he first stood there as a candidate.

Doric is a rich and expressive language. Every member can talk about expressions of style and accents from their areas. People talk about the differences in the dialect between different villages. We have to remember those differences, which carry over into music and verse. We think of the bothy ballads of the north-east, fiddle music and accordion music—every one of us can think of something that we remember from our youth, that may be suppressed today or not encouraged enough.

We should expand the cultural diversity at community level in schools and homes and encourage children to be proud of their local culture. When they have confidence in their local culture they can take on board other regional cultures and take part in cultural exchanges. That will make Scotland an even richer place. If Scotland is nothing else, it is the most magnificent hotch-potch of culture in a small landmass, which people find easy to visit and regularly come back to. I think that we will all agree on that.

I hope that the Executive approaches the consultation in a way that will enable it to come to conclusions that establish a base to bring real support and encouragement to the freedom and proliferation of the different aspects of our culture. I was particularly taken by Mike Russell's comments and passion about the chaos that can

give rise to a natural generation of culture. We do not want an artificial straitjacket of conformity that requires things to be stylised and to fit in a dictionary. That is not what our culture is about.

I know that members of the Executive are listening and I welcome the fact that this document has come before the Parliament today. I make one plea to the Executive: I hope that it will ensure that every aspect of Scottish tradition and culture has equal access to support and encouragement. I do not hear calls for a minister for Doric or a minister of Lallans. I appreciate the wonderful force that the Gaelic speakers have brought together to push their cause, but that is only one aspect of our country and I ask that we have uniformity of support for our future culture in Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1781E188P474C706626", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Cultural Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26753, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 581.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 581.0, "ID": 26753, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McGugan, Irene", "ID": 1781, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Irene McGugan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Irene McGugan (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 658.0, "ContributionID": 706626, "EditedText": "I congratulate the Executive on initiating this debate at such an early stage in our programme. The advent of the Scottish Parliament should itself mark a new phase in the confidence of Scotland's culture. I have no such confidence that the document under discussion today will deliver this revitalisation, despite the fact that it was introduced by a surgeon with undoubted skills in the theatre. I want to examine one or two of the gaps in the strategy. I accept that the document is not meant to be prescriptive, but the Executive could have taken the opportunity to give tangible commitments to some aspects of arts and culture. The Executive has professed its credentials in joined-up government. In culture policy, that must mean a clear set of objectives to ensure that arts policy engages with education. \"Celebrating Scotland\" gives no real explanation of how the Government sees Scottish culture being promoted in schools. I suggest that there might be some good ideas in the as yet unpublished report on Scottish culture and the curriculum, which successive Scottish Office ministers have suppressed. Still on education, the Executive has made much mention of social inclusion. However, it is not clear how far the abolition of student grants and the imposition of tuition fees extends access to Scotland's culture. On language, although we have heard a couple of lines of MacDiarmid, there is no evidence to indicate that the Government takes at all seriously the issues surrounding the Scots language, which probably receives less state support than any other minority language in Europe. Over the past four years, the Scottish Office and the Scottish Executive have received continual representations from academic and cultural bodies on the pressing need for a census question on Scots, which would make planning and provision possible. \"Celebrating Scotland\" gives not the slightest indication that the Executive is committed to making progress on this or any other issue relating to the Scots language. The key to the future of the arts is the economy. For the strategy to be effective, we need to create a suitable financial climate. This is a question of investment, not subsidy, because the arts create more wealth than they consume. The Government and, by implication, the Scottish Arts Council should not continue to dictate terms purely because of the strength of their funding role. We need a radical rethink of the funding situation. The Executive talks a great deal about community, and I suggest that it would be better if the balance of financial power were shifted in favour of local authorities, which are more responsive to and supportive of distinctive local initiatives. There are some good examples of local authority support for grass-roots projects in which value to the community is given as much priority as pure profit. Although we are all agreed that local authorities are best equipped to promote such initiatives, the problem at the moment is that funding is difficult to source. Since the reorganisation of local government, there is no longer a duty on councils to ensure adequate provision of facilities or cultural activities for the inhabitants of their areas, although councils were given a new power to give grants towards the expenses of any organisation providing cultural activities. The Government- imposed cut has, of course, led to a sharp decline in the expansion of this aspect of Scotland's culture. We need a better structure for the investment of public money in the arts and we need to encourage private investment. Why not encourage the arts community itself to take the lead in such developments? Creativity now has a value. Artists should be encouraged to develop their entrepreneurial streak, capitalise on the interest that exists and seek commercial support. Links between chambers of commerce and arts groups have proved successful in Europe and there are all sorts of ways in which arts groups can engage with business. One such project exists on the Royal Mile. Dom has brought together under one roof a range of artists, sculptors, poets and scholars. By creating its own core finance through the provision of services relevant to the commercial sector, it manages to support less lucrative aspects of its work while retaining its creative independence. The Scottish Parliament can help to create a climate of partnership between the arts and business to promote self-sufficiency. However, financial incentives need to be supportive. Nothing in this paper indicates that the Executive has any of the ambition that was shown by the Irish Government in providing state allowances and tax breaks to outstanding artists, musicians and writers. How wonderful it would be for Scotland to pioneer such innovations and for Governments across Europe to take note. I want briefly to mention some major elements of the Scottish cultural scene. Traditional music is very wide-ranging. The Scottish Parliament has a role to play in supporting the fèisean movement, for example. However, it is not enough to support musicians; we need to make an effort to retain the ancillary jobs that are supported by the music industry. Despite the success of our bands and the achievements of some small recording companies, the critical mass of permanent jobs in the popular music market, for example—production, sales and recording—is located outside Scotland. Music industry investment needs to return to Scotland. Crafts workers need a special mention. There is no support system for individual craftsmen and craftswomen. We need to promote the quality of our design production and encourage people to come to Scotland to buy. The construction of the new Parliament building is a tremendous opportunity to make sure that a high profile is given to the skills of Scottish crafts workers. The European Parliament has a scheme to ensure that artists from all European countries are commissioned to provide artwork for display in the public areas of the Parliament building. Michael Russell has commended the scheme to the Holyrood project team, which has agreed to examine it. We must also ensure that as many as possible of the commissions for the internal decoration and fittings of the Scottish Parliament go to Scottish designers and artists and that Holyrood becomes an exemplar of Scottish design and achievement. The role of Government is to support the arts and to allow them to evolve, not to impose a strategy whose effect will be to limit and inhibit creativity.", "EditedTextHTML": "I congratulate the Executive on initiating this debate at such an early stage in our programme. The advent of the Scottish Parliament should itself mark a new phase in the confidence of Scotland's culture. I have no such confidence that the document under discussion today will deliver this revitalisation, despite the fact that it was introduced by a surgeon with undoubted skills in the theatre.

I want to examine one or two of the gaps in the strategy. I accept that the document is not meant to be prescriptive, but the Executive could have taken the opportunity to give tangible commitments to some aspects of arts and culture.

The Executive has professed its credentials in joined-up government. In culture policy, that must mean a clear set of objectives to ensure that arts policy engages with education. \"Celebrating Scotland\" gives no real explanation of how the Government sees Scottish culture being promoted in schools. I suggest that there might be some good ideas in the as yet unpublished report on Scottish culture and the curriculum, which successive Scottish Office ministers have suppressed.

Still on education, the Executive has made much mention of social inclusion. However, it is not clear how far the abolition of student grants and the imposition of tuition fees extends access to Scotland's culture.

On language, although we have heard a couple of lines of MacDiarmid, there is no evidence to indicate that the Government takes at all seriously the issues surrounding the Scots language, which probably receives less state support than any other minority language in Europe. Over the past four years, the Scottish Office and the Scottish Executive have received continual representations from academic and cultural bodies on the pressing need for a census question on Scots, which would make planning and provision possible. \"Celebrating Scotland\" gives not the slightest indication that the Executive is committed to making progress on this or any other issue relating to the Scots language.

The key to the future of the arts is the economy. For the strategy to be effective, we need to create a suitable financial climate. This is a question of investment, not subsidy, because the arts create more wealth than they consume. The Government and, by implication, the Scottish Arts Council should not continue to dictate terms purely because of the strength of their funding role. We need a radical rethink of the funding situation.

The Executive talks a great deal about community, and I suggest that it would be better if the balance of financial power were shifted in favour of local authorities, which are more responsive to and supportive of distinctive local initiatives. There are some good examples of local authority support for grass-roots projects in which value to the community is given as much priority as pure profit.

Although we are all agreed that local authorities are best equipped to promote such initiatives, the problem at the moment is that funding is difficult to source. Since the reorganisation of local government, there is no longer a duty on councils to ensure adequate provision of facilities or cultural activities for the inhabitants of their areas, although councils were given a new power to give grants towards the expenses of any organisation providing cultural activities. The Government- imposed cut has, of course, led to a sharp decline in the expansion of this aspect of Scotland's culture.

We need a better structure for the investment of public money in the arts and we need to encourage private investment. Why not encourage the arts community itself to take the lead in such developments? Creativity now has a value. Artists should be encouraged to develop their entrepreneurial streak, capitalise on the interest that exists and seek commercial support. Links between chambers of commerce and arts groups have proved successful in Europe and there are all sorts of ways in which arts groups can engage with business. One such project exists on the Royal Mile. Dom has brought together under one roof a range of artists, sculptors, poets and scholars. By creating its own core finance through the provision of services relevant to the commercial sector, it manages to support less lucrative aspects of its work while retaining its creative independence.

The Scottish Parliament can help to create a climate of partnership between the arts and business to promote self-sufficiency. However,

financial incentives need to be supportive. Nothing in this paper indicates that the Executive has any of the ambition that was shown by the Irish Government in providing state allowances and tax breaks to outstanding artists, musicians and writers. How wonderful it would be for Scotland to pioneer such innovations and for Governments across Europe to take note.

I want briefly to mention some major elements of the Scottish cultural scene. Traditional music is very wide-ranging. The Scottish Parliament has a role to play in supporting the fèisean movement, for example. However, it is not enough to support musicians; we need to make an effort to retain the ancillary jobs that are supported by the music industry. Despite the success of our bands and the achievements of some small recording companies, the critical mass of permanent jobs in the popular music market, for example—production, sales and recording—is located outside Scotland. Music industry investment needs to return to Scotland.

Crafts workers need a special mention. There is no support system for individual craftsmen and craftswomen. We need to promote the quality of our design production and encourage people to come to Scotland to buy.

The construction of the new Parliament building is a tremendous opportunity to make sure that a high profile is given to the skills of Scottish crafts workers. The European Parliament has a scheme to ensure that artists from all European countries are commissioned to provide artwork for display in the public areas of the Parliament building. Michael Russell has commended the scheme to the Holyrood project team, which has agreed to examine it. We must also ensure that as many as possible of the commissions for the internal decoration and fittings of the Scottish Parliament go to Scottish designers and artists and that Holyrood becomes an exemplar of Scottish design and achievement.

The role of Government is to support the arts and to allow them to evolve, not to impose a strategy whose effect will be to limit and inhibit creativity.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706640", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26754, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 679.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 679.0, "ID": 26754, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 688.0, "ContributionID": 706640, "EditedText": "The result of the division is: For 61, Against 0, Abstentions 35.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result of the division is: For 61, Against 0, Abstentions 35.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1840E82P158C706646", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Domestic Violence", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26755, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 692.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 692.0, "ID": 26755, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macmillan, Maureen", "ID": 1840, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Maureen Macmillan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Maureen Macmillan (Highlands and Islands) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 698.0, "ContributionID": 706646, "EditedText": "When one has been involved, as I have, in campaigning against domestic violence for nearly 20 years, it is easy to forget that not everyone realises how domestic violence pervades every part of society. As I speak I am conscious that women who have experienced domestic violence might be listening, because one in five women will be victims of violence in their lives. Two hundred children in Scotland today will see their mothers abused. Twenty-five per cent of all reported violent crime is domestic violence that is committed by men against women, and dear knows how much goes unreported. There are misconceptions about domestic violence. The most common one is that the abuse is drink related. Domestic violence is not caused by alcohol, as both the Strathclyde police and Ross-shire police discovered when they kept records of cases last Christmas. It is not confined to one social class. Middle-class women might not present themselves at refuges, but they telephone for advice and help. They are as likely to suffer domestic violence as are women from other social classes. Another misconception is that domestic violence happens only in urban areas. I can assure members that it happens in rural areas, too. Isolated areas are often deliberately chosen by an abuser to cut a woman off from her friends. Abuse does not run in families and it is not necessarily the case that a violent father will have violent sons. Nevertheless, domestic violence affects children profoundly. Violence is used to control a woman by making her afraid. The abuser uses threats as well as physical violence, and assaults are sometimes severe. Just less than half of female murder victims are murdered by their male partners, and three quarters of those victims are killed by the man after they have left him. Not all abuse is physical. Many women suffer psychological or sexual abuse, which is used to control, and which can be damaging in a different way. It is of the utmost importance that women have easy access to help and support, but in the Highlands and Islands there are particular problems. In a small community, the abuser might be an important figure who is well liked. A woman might suffer in silence because she feels that she would not be believed. It is important that women in such situations should be able to get information on where to find help. It can often be difficult for a woman to leave her abuser because there might be little or no public transport and the distance involved might be enormous. Once a woman has made the decision to leave—and that is not an easy decision—it is of paramount importance that she has a safe place to go. In the Highlands, that is not always easy. There are no women's refuges on the west coast mainland north of Dunoon and none on the east coast mainland north of Dingwall. The existing refuges are overloaded; three families might be living in a house meant for one. We still need more space. Last year, Ross-shire Women's Aid gave shelter to 26 women and 43 children, and helped and advised 200 women through telephone helplines and visits. It had to turn away 37 women and 55 children. One reason for that is that women often have to stay on in refuges longer than is necessary because there is a lack of rented housing to move on to, and that blocks refuge spaces that other women need. Refuges are funded, not centrally, but by local authorities. The provision of housing therefore varies from council to council, and the level of commitment can depend on the attitude of one official in a housing department. I pay tribute to Orkney Islands Council's housing department for its efforts to help abused women. Outreach work and the building of new refuges, both of which are now being tackled by Highland Council, are only part of the answer. Not every woman wants or needs to be in a refuge, although some women need to move as far as possible from their abusers for safety's sake. There are only two outreach workers for the Highland Council area. Not every woman wants to leave her community. A woman needs to be supported in her community and to feel safe. Changes in the law are required to achieve that. The support that is available is improving through partnerships among health boards, the police and voluntary organisations. Domestic violence is beginning to be treated in an holistic way. That is a significant move forward. Organisations such as the Highland Domestic Abuse Forum are trying to reach out to the whole of the Highlands by educating and campaigning, or rather, they would do so if they could get sufficient funding. It is discouraging to be unable to initiate campaigns that have long been established in other areas. O for a zero tolerance campaign in the Highlands. An audit of good practice throughout the country is needed. The areas that are only now recognising the extent of the problem need successful initiatives and encouragement. What we need most of all is a change in public attitudes, and that can be achieved only through public service broadcasting and through work in schools. Relationship education is as important as health education or drugs education, and it is a matter of great concern that around 10 per cent of teenage girls still condone violence in a relationship. No amount of refuge provision will stop abusers, but a change in social attitudes will. I hope that the Scottish Partnership on Domestic Violence will reconvene soon and that its recommendations will be presented to Parliament as soon as possible. Domestic violence is a cancer in our society and we must do our utmost to find a treatment.", "EditedTextHTML": "When one has been involved, as I have, in campaigning against domestic violence for nearly 20 years, it is easy to forget that not everyone realises how domestic violence pervades every part of society. As I speak I am conscious that women who have experienced domestic violence might be listening, because one in five women will be victims of violence in their lives. Two hundred children in Scotland today will see their mothers abused. Twenty-five per cent of all reported violent crime is domestic violence that is committed by men against women, and dear knows how much goes unreported.

There are misconceptions about domestic violence. The most common one is that the abuse is drink related. Domestic violence is not caused by alcohol, as both the Strathclyde police and Ross-shire police discovered when they kept records of cases last Christmas. It is not confined to one social class. Middle-class women might not present themselves at refuges, but they telephone for advice and help. They are as likely to suffer domestic violence as are women from other social classes.

Another misconception is that domestic violence happens only in urban areas. I can assure members that it happens in rural areas, too. Isolated areas are often deliberately chosen by an abuser to cut a woman off from her friends.

Abuse does not run in families and it is not necessarily the case that a violent father will have violent sons. Nevertheless, domestic violence affects children profoundly.

Violence is used to control a woman by making her afraid. The abuser uses threats as well as physical violence, and assaults are sometimes severe. Just less than half of female murder victims are murdered by their male partners, and three quarters of those victims are killed by the man after they have left him. Not all abuse is physical. Many women suffer psychological or sexual abuse, which is used to control, and which can be damaging in a different way.

It is of the utmost importance that women have easy access to help and support, but in the Highlands and Islands there are particular problems. In a small community, the abuser might be an important figure who is well liked. A woman might suffer in silence because she feels that she would not be believed. It is important that women in such situations should be able to get information on where to find help.

It can often be difficult for a woman to leave her abuser because there might be little or no public transport and the distance involved might be enormous. Once a woman has made the decision to leave—and that is not an easy decision—it is of paramount importance that she has a safe place to go. In the Highlands, that is not always easy.

There are no women's refuges on the west coast mainland north of Dunoon and none on the east coast mainland north of Dingwall. The existing refuges are overloaded; three families might be living in a house meant for one. We still need more space.

Last year, Ross-shire Women's Aid gave shelter to 26 women and 43 children, and helped and advised 200 women through telephone helplines and visits. It had to turn away 37 women and 55 children. One reason for that is that women often have to stay on in refuges longer than is necessary because there is a lack of rented housing to move on to, and that blocks refuge spaces that other women need.

Refuges are funded, not centrally, but by local authorities. The provision of housing therefore varies from council to council, and the level of commitment can depend on the attitude of one official in a housing department. I pay tribute to Orkney Islands Council's housing department for its efforts to help abused women.

Outreach work and the building of new refuges, both of which are now being tackled by Highland Council, are only part of the answer. Not every woman wants or needs to be in a refuge, although some women need to move as far as possible from their abusers for safety's sake. There are only two outreach workers for the Highland Council area.

Not every woman wants to leave her community. A woman needs to be supported in her community and to feel safe. Changes in the law are required to achieve that. The support that is available is improving through partnerships among health boards, the police and voluntary organisations.

Domestic violence is beginning to be treated in an holistic way. That is a significant move forward.

Organisations such as the Highland Domestic Abuse Forum are trying to reach out to the whole of the Highlands by educating and campaigning, or rather, they would do so if they could get sufficient funding. It is discouraging to be unable to initiate campaigns that have long been established in other areas. O for a zero tolerance campaign in the Highlands.

An audit of good practice throughout the country is needed. The areas that are only now recognising the extent of the problem need successful initiatives and encouragement. What we need most of all is a change in public attitudes, and that can be achieved only through public service broadcasting and through work in schools. Relationship education is as important as health education or drugs education, and it is a matter of great concern that around 10 per cent of teenage girls still condone violence in a relationship.

No amount of refuge provision will stop abusers, but a change in social attitudes will. I hope that the Scottish Partnership on Domestic Violence will reconvene soon and that its recommendations will be presented to Parliament as soon as possible. Domestic violence is a cancer in our society and we must do our utmost to find a treatment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706647", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Domestic Violence", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26755, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 692.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 692.0, "ID": 26755, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 700.0, "ContributionID": 706647, "EditedText": "I should be grateful if members kept their speeches to about four minutes' duration.", "EditedTextHTML": "I should be grateful if members kept their speeches to about four minutes' duration.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1820E139P227C706652", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Domestic Violence", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26755, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 692.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 692.0, "ID": 26755, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Curran, Margaret", "ID": 1820, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Baillieston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Curran", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Margaret Curran (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 713.0, "ContributionID": 706652, "EditedText": "May I move a motion to extend the business?", "EditedTextHTML": "May I move a motion to extend the business?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C706653", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Domestic Violence", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26755, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 692.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 692.0, "ID": 26755, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 715.0, "ContributionID": 706653, "EditedText": "Yes.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706654", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Domestic Violence", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26755, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 692.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 692.0, "ID": 26755, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 717.0, "ContributionID": 706654, "EditedText": "Motion moved,", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion moved,

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1878E208P502C706648", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Domestic Violence", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26755, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 692.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 692.0, "ID": 26755, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Dr Winnie", "ID": 1878, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Winnie Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Winnie Ewing (Highlands and Islands) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 703.0, "ContributionID": 706648, "EditedText": "I whole-heartedly congratulate Maureen Macmillan on her speech. The passion and clarity of her description of domestic violence should make us all pause to consider this terrible problem. I welcome her last point about public attitudes: we must find a way to get the nature of the problem home to people. I have some credentials to speak in the debate. I served on the Westminster select committee on violence and marriage, which was miscalled \"battered wives\". Hundreds of women came before us, as well as one battered husband, who very bravely gave evidence. It is almost always women who are battered, although not in all cases. My second credential is as a former member of a legal practice, which was not a posh one. I advised hundreds of battered women in civil and criminal cases. I will mention one case of a woman who came to see me. I could see immediately that she had been battered and I thought that she must be over 50. She was 31 years old and her face had no planes left, because all the bones had been broken. Domestic violence is a terrible thing, and we do not know whether violence towards women extends almost inevitably to the children. The select committee on violence and marriage was followed by another on violence and the family, and on which Margaret Ewing served, because clearly the subject needed to be widened. If many of the recommendations made by those select committees had been acted on, perhaps the problem would not be as grave as it is now. Being one of the Highlands and Islands list MSPs, I am aware of the lack of provision in the far north and west of Scotland. We need to make more money available to create the safe haven provided by refuges. I do not often read The Sun, nor do I always believe what I read in it. However, today I read that Chancellor Brown is sitting on a £10 billion surplus because of the self-assessment tax arrangements, which have provided more money than he expected. We need some money to tackle the problem of domestic violence. It will not be solved entirely along the lines that Maureen suggested—we need to spend some money on creating safe houses. I criticise the cutting of money to citizens advice bureaux—where they exist—because often they provide people with a port of call. As a lawyer, I am also aware that in some places people do not even have ready access to a legal aid lawyer. I have one final significant point, which grew out of my years of reflection on the subject, about having a roof over one's head. I used to find that if a woman had a mother, a friend or a sister who would take her, her problem was not so grave and she could escape. However, that was not a possibility for many women—the mother's house was overcrowded, or there was nowhere to go— who were stuck in their wretchedness. I would like council house tenants to have the right to take the tenancy and to throw out a husband who has been proven to be violent to his wife—a battered husband would have the same right. That would require a simple change in the law. Many tenancies are joint, many are in the man's name, and many are in the woman's name. Legally, the woman can put the husband out, although she often does not know how to do it. Sometimes, I was able to help in that process. However, where the tenancy is joint or is in the man's name, the woman is stuck. That would be a sensible issue for the Executive to consider and it would not require a complicated bill. I appreciate very much what teachers do when they see evidence of violence towards children. Teachers often act as a barometer and draw problems to the attention of people who can help.", "EditedTextHTML": "I whole-heartedly congratulate Maureen Macmillan on her speech. The passion and clarity of her description of domestic violence should make us all pause to consider this terrible problem. I welcome her last point about public attitudes: we must find a way to get the nature of the problem home to people.

I have some credentials to speak in the debate. I served on the Westminster select committee on violence and marriage, which was miscalled \"battered wives\". Hundreds of women came before us, as well as one battered husband, who very bravely gave evidence. It is almost always women who are battered, although not in all cases.

My second credential is as a former member of a legal practice, which was not a posh one. I advised hundreds of battered women in civil and criminal cases. I will mention one case of a woman who came to see me. I could see immediately that she had been battered and I thought that she must be over 50. She was 31 years old and her face had no planes left, because all the bones had been broken. Domestic violence is a terrible thing, and we do not know whether violence towards women extends almost inevitably to the children.

The select committee on violence and marriage was followed by another on violence and the family, and on which Margaret Ewing served, because clearly the subject needed to be widened. If many of the recommendations made by those select committees had been acted on, perhaps the problem would not be as grave as it is now.

Being one of the Highlands and Islands list MSPs, I am aware of the lack of provision in the far north and west of Scotland. We need to make more money available to create the safe haven provided by refuges. I do not often read The Sun, nor do I always believe what I read in it. However, today I read that Chancellor Brown is sitting on a £10 billion surplus because of the self-assessment tax arrangements, which have provided more money than he expected.

We need some money to tackle the problem of domestic violence. It will not be solved entirely along the lines that Maureen suggested—we need to spend some money on creating safe houses. I criticise the cutting of money to citizens advice bureaux—where they exist—because often they provide people with a port of call. As a lawyer, I am also aware that in some places people do not even have ready access to a legal aid lawyer.

I have one final significant point, which grew out of my years of reflection on the subject, about having a roof over one's head. I used to find that if a woman had a mother, a friend or a sister who would take her, her problem was not so grave and she could escape. However, that was not a possibility for many women—the mother's house was overcrowded, or there was nowhere to go— who were stuck in their wretchedness.

I would like council house tenants to have the right to take the tenancy and to throw out a husband who has been proven to be violent to his wife—a battered husband would have the same right. That would require a simple change in the law. Many tenancies are joint, many are in the man's name, and many are in the woman's name. Legally, the woman can put the husband out, although she often does not know how to do it. Sometimes, I was able to help in that process. However, where the tenancy is joint or is in the man's name, the woman is stuck. That would be a sensible issue for the Executive to consider and it would not require a complicated bill.

I appreciate very much what teachers do when they see evidence of violence towards children. Teachers often act as a barometer and draw problems to the attention of people who can help.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1762E216P508C706659", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Domestic Violence", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26755, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 692.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 692.0, "ID": 26755, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Elder, Dorothy-Grace", "ID": 1762, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 725.0, "ContributionID": 706659, "EditedText": "I have been involved for many years with battered women. My involvement has been both as a journalist, trying to publicise some of the groups that aid those women, and as a volunteer. I have therefore met umpteen battered women—although perhaps not nearly as many as my colleague Winifred Ewing—and I can assure anyone in this chamber with any doubts whatever that, in Scotland in the 1990s, there are women in much the same mental and physical state as wartime atrocity victims. Such women always wear coverup clothing to hide some of their scars and bruises and pretend to lead a normal life. I have met women who have been kicked in the stomach while they were pregnant or have had their arms broken and their ribs kicked in; and I once met a woman who had had a lit blowtorch taken to her body. In many ordinary homes right across the spectrum in Scotland—\"chez nous\"—there are women who are no better off than their great- grandmothers, because, like their great- grandmothers, they have no place to go and will put up with anything just to keep a roof over their head. I am sure that members will agree that that is totally unacceptable in this age. Such violence can never be tackled until we have sufficient places of immediate refuge for those women and their children. The most terrible scandal in this whole affair is that, in Scotland, each year 9,000 women and their children are turned away from refuges because of lack of places. Those 9,000 women actually believed the pledges of successive Governments that something would be done about domestic violence. The motion quite properly concentrates on domestic violence in rural areas, particularly the Highlands. However, cities such as Glasgow are so short of refuge places that, in areas such as Easterhouse, desperate Women's Aid workers have to phone round refuges as far apart as Galloway and Inverness to find a bed for the night for a woman and her children. Every week, 50 women from Easterhouse alone apply for the four available places in that area. That is scandalous. In the long term, battered women will be in a worse position because of the massive housing stock transfer and the demolition of 15,000 Glasgow council houses. The homeless, including battered women and their children, will suffer more. As it is, women stay for far too long in the few refuge places available and many children are being brought up in so-called temporary shelters for several years at a time. Last year, Helen Liddell announced that a series of advertisements in a campaign against violence would start on boxing day. The campaign cost the Scottish Office £600,000, but not one penny went into extra refuge places. A sum that was mere peanuts was added later because women's groups and my party protested strongly that we wanted substance—real money—to save those women, rather than a shadow show on television. We have a great chance in this Parliament to save such women through all-party co-operation between men and women of good will, so let us not blow that. What happened to the thousands of women who trusted those advertisements and who thought that they would receive aid only to be turned away after a great extra rush following Christmas? They are back with the batterers, still wandering from room to room, or dead. As a parliamentarian, I do not intend to carry on my shoulders for the next four years the responsibility of doing nothing, and I am sure that every member feels the same.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have been involved for many years with battered women. My involvement has been both as a journalist, trying to publicise some of the groups that aid those women, and as a volunteer. I have therefore met umpteen battered women—although perhaps not nearly as many as my colleague Winifred Ewing—and I can assure anyone in this chamber with any doubts whatever that, in Scotland in the 1990s, there are women in much the same mental and physical state as wartime atrocity victims. Such women always wear cover

up clothing to hide some of their scars and bruises and pretend to lead a normal life. I have met women who have been kicked in the stomach while they were pregnant or have had their arms broken and their ribs kicked in; and I once met a woman who had had a lit blowtorch taken to her body.

In many ordinary homes right across the spectrum in Scotland—\"chez nous\"—there are women who are no better off than their great- grandmothers, because, like their great- grandmothers, they have no place to go and will put up with anything just to keep a roof over their head. I am sure that members will agree that that is totally unacceptable in this age.

Such violence can never be tackled until we have sufficient places of immediate refuge for those women and their children. The most terrible scandal in this whole affair is that, in Scotland, each year 9,000 women and their children are turned away from refuges because of lack of places. Those 9,000 women actually believed the pledges of successive Governments that something would be done about domestic violence.

The motion quite properly concentrates on domestic violence in rural areas, particularly the Highlands. However, cities such as Glasgow are so short of refuge places that, in areas such as Easterhouse, desperate Women's Aid workers have to phone round refuges as far apart as Galloway and Inverness to find a bed for the night for a woman and her children. Every week, 50 women from Easterhouse alone apply for the four available places in that area. That is scandalous. In the long term, battered women will be in a worse position because of the massive housing stock transfer and the demolition of 15,000 Glasgow council houses. The homeless, including battered women and their children, will suffer more. As it is, women stay for far too long in the few refuge places available and many children are being brought up in so-called temporary shelters for several years at a time.

Last year, Helen Liddell announced that a series of advertisements in a campaign against violence would start on boxing day. The campaign cost the Scottish Office £600,000, but not one penny went into extra refuge places. A sum that was mere peanuts was added later because women's groups and my party protested strongly that we wanted substance—real money—to save those women, rather than a shadow show on television.

We have a great chance in this Parliament to save such women through all-party co-operation between men and women of good will, so let us not blow that. What happened to the thousands of women who trusted those advertisements and who thought that they would receive aid only to be turned away after a great extra rush following Christmas? They are back with the batterers, still wandering from room to room, or dead. As a parliamentarian, I do not intend to carry on my shoulders for the next four years the responsibility of doing nothing, and I am sure that every member feels the same.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C706663", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Domestic Violence", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26755, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 692.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 692.0, "ID": 26755, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 737.0, "ContributionID": 706663, "EditedText": "I speak with some trepidation as the first male speaker in this debate, but it is important that males stand up on this issue. Domestic violence does not affect just women; it affects families. Cathy Jamieson's speech about children was very moving and went to the heart of the problem. The effects on children of domestic violence in the home are horrendous and they carry on through a lifetime. We hear about them all too often when cases are tried in our courts and people relate back to their upbringing and experiences as young children. Cathy's points were very important. That does not undermine, in any way, the issues that Maureen has raised today and I congratulate her on the fact that she has also raised those issues with the Justice and Home Affairs Committee. That is another way in which the issue will be debated well into the future. This is not a new issue, but it has been hidden under the surface for many years. Dorothy spoke about people who wore long sleeves to hide the signs of the abuse they were experiencing. That says something about society in the past. We should hope that we are now moving forward and have the strength to stand up to the issues. The solution is not all about injecting money. It is about care and support. It is also about the way in which the police address the issue. At the beginning of the summer, I went along to a good conference that was organised by Strathclyde Police and heard a wide range of contributions. The conference emphasised that the attitude of the police in the past was perhaps to think, \"Oh no, it's just another domestic abuse situation.\" That attitude has changed and the seriousness of the issue is now coming to the fore. It is great to see that forces such as Strathclyde Police are getting to grips with this issue. I want to highlight the fact that, in the past, local authorities, Governments—in particular the Conservative Government—and others have not been dead to this issue. Elaine served on South Ayrshire Council, which replaced the Tory-led Kyle and Carrick District Council, which treated domestic violence very seriously indeed. It introduced a shelter in the Craigie area of Ayr, where 20 women could find shelter and support. Part of the support is the breathing space that shelters offer: the time for reflection, the time to gather things together again and the time to relate to other people with the same problems. It is very important for like-minded people who have the same experiences to come together, particularly when we hear that all their confidence has been driven out of them. I could go on for much longer, but the Deputy Presiding Officer is getting impatient with me. We should think about men as well—domestic violence sometimes happens to them, as the mother of the house said. All the men are with her.", "EditedTextHTML": "I speak with some trepidation as the first male speaker in this debate, but it is important that males stand up on this issue. Domestic violence does not affect just women; it affects families.

Cathy Jamieson's speech about children was very moving and went to the heart of the problem. The effects on children of domestic violence in the home are horrendous and they carry on through a lifetime. We hear about them all too often when cases are tried in our courts and people relate

back to their upbringing and experiences as young children. Cathy's points were very important. That does not undermine, in any way, the issues that Maureen has raised today and I congratulate her on the fact that she has also raised those issues with the Justice and Home Affairs Committee. That is another way in which the issue will be debated well into the future.

This is not a new issue, but it has been hidden under the surface for many years. Dorothy spoke about people who wore long sleeves to hide the signs of the abuse they were experiencing. That says something about society in the past. We should hope that we are now moving forward and have the strength to stand up to the issues.

The solution is not all about injecting money. It is about care and support. It is also about the way in which the police address the issue. At the beginning of the summer, I went along to a good conference that was organised by Strathclyde Police and heard a wide range of contributions. The conference emphasised that the attitude of the police in the past was perhaps to think, \"Oh no, it's just another domestic abuse situation.\" That attitude has changed and the seriousness of the issue is now coming to the fore. It is great to see that forces such as Strathclyde Police are getting to grips with this issue.

I want to highlight the fact that, in the past, local authorities, Governments—in particular the Conservative Government—and others have not been dead to this issue. Elaine served on South Ayrshire Council, which replaced the Tory-led Kyle and Carrick District Council, which treated domestic violence very seriously indeed. It introduced a shelter in the Craigie area of Ayr, where 20 women could find shelter and support. Part of the support is the breathing space that shelters offer: the time for reflection, the time to gather things together again and the time to relate to other people with the same problems. It is very important for like-minded people who have the same experiences to come together, particularly when we hear that all their confidence has been driven out of them.

I could go on for much longer, but the Deputy Presiding Officer is getting impatient with me. We should think about men as well—domestic violence sometimes happens to them, as the mother of the house said. All the men are with her.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2123E103P242C706667", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Domestic Violence", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26755, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 692.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 692.0, "ID": 26755, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Chisholm, Malcolm", "ID": 2123, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh North and Leith" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Malcolm Chisholm", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 748.0, "ContributionID": 706667, "EditedText": "I was moved by Maureen Macmillan's speech, and I hope that from today the Parliament will make it a priority of its first year to develop a comprehensive strategy against violence against women. I was brought into this issue by the zero tolerance campaign, which started in this city, and which taught us about the three Ps, which have also been mentioned by others. Prevention, through education, is important. The male attitudes that lead to domestic violence, rape, child sexual abuse and other male abuses of power must be challenged. I hope that the Scottish Executive will involve zero tolerance from now on. Protection is also essential. That is why we need several legislative changes, such as allowing all women, rather than only married women, to get an interdict with power of arrest, and such as providing specific protective measures for rape victims in court. Provision is the third P, and the one that has been highlighted most today. I hope that funding will be sorted out in this year's spending round for Women's Aid and for rape crisis centres, either by a specific central grant, or through ring-fenced local authority budgets.", "EditedTextHTML": "I was moved by Maureen Macmillan's speech, and I hope that from today the Parliament will make it a priority of its first year to develop a comprehensive strategy against violence against women. I was brought into this issue by the zero tolerance campaign, which started in this city, and which taught us about the three Ps, which have also been mentioned by others.

Prevention, through education, is important. The male attitudes that lead to domestic violence, rape, child sexual abuse and other male abuses of power must be challenged. I hope that the Scottish Executive will involve zero tolerance from now on.

Protection is also essential. That is why we need several legislative changes, such as allowing all women, rather than only married women, to get an interdict with power of arrest, and such as providing specific protective measures for rape victims in court.

Provision is the third P, and the one that has been highlighted most today. I hope that funding will be sorted out in this year's spending round for Women's Aid and for rape crisis centres, either by a specific central grant, or through ring-fenced local authority budgets.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1876E194P490C706669", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Domestic Violence", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26755, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 692.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 692.0, "ID": 26755, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Marwick, Tricia", "ID": 1876, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tricia Marwick", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tricia Marwick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 754.0, "ContributionID": 706669, "EditedText": "I add my thanks to Maureen Macmillan for securing today's debate. Scottish Women's Aid has done much to raise the issue of domestic violence and to provide practical solutions. The Parliament can learn from and use the expert advice which such organisations can offer. Indeed, the Justice and Home Affairs Committee will meet representatives of Scottish Women's Aid next week to discuss legal means of protecting women, and to see what this Parliament can do to help them. As Maureen rightly says, there are particular problems in rural areas. For those who live in a small village, miles from the nearest town, who rely on public transport, and who have two toddlers in tow, it is very difficult to get away and there is nowhere to go anyway. It is difficult to enter the debate at this stage, because much has already been said: I just want to add my thoughts. One of the central themes of this debate is the need for resources and money. One of the most horrifying statistics is the fact that 9,000 women were turned away from women's refuges last year. Those women took the decision to make a break from their partners and we did not find them the help and resources to do so. I saw Jack McConnell nodding his head at Jackie Baillie: I hope that he was telling her that there will be money for women's resources. We need safe and accessible refuges, with the support staff, and we need dedicated police officers to deal with complaints. We need 24-hour helplines so that women can get the help they need, particularly in rural areas. I look forward to working with Maureen Macmillan in the Justice and Home Affairs Committee, under the convenership of my colleague Roseanna Cunningham, to put legislation in place that will truly protect women, but we need the resources—the money—to do that.", "EditedTextHTML": "I add my thanks to Maureen Macmillan for securing today's debate. Scottish Women's Aid has done much to raise the issue of domestic violence and to provide practical solutions. The Parliament can learn from and use the expert advice which such organisations can offer. Indeed, the Justice and Home Affairs Committee will meet representatives of Scottish Women's Aid next week to discuss legal means of protecting women, and to see what this Parliament can do to help them.

As Maureen rightly says, there are particular problems in rural areas. For those who live in a small village, miles from the nearest town, who rely on public transport, and who have two toddlers in tow, it is very difficult to get away and there is nowhere to go anyway.

It is difficult to enter the debate at this stage, because much has already been said: I just want to add my thoughts. One of the central themes of this debate is the need for resources and money. One of the most horrifying statistics is the fact that 9,000 women were turned away from women's refuges last year. Those women took the decision to make a break from their partners and we did not find them the help and resources to do so.

I saw Jack McConnell nodding his head at Jackie Baillie: I hope that he was telling her that there will be money for women's resources.

We need safe and accessible refuges, with the support staff, and we need dedicated police officers to deal with complaints. We need 24-hour helplines so that women can get the help they need, particularly in rural areas.

I look forward to working with Maureen Macmillan in the Justice and Home Affairs Committee, under the convenership of my colleague Roseanna Cunningham, to put legislation in place that will truly protect women, but we need the resources—the money—to do that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C706670", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Domestic Violence", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26755, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 692.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 692.0, "ID": 26755, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 756.0, "ContributionID": 706670, "EditedText": "There is room for one more speech, of up to three minutes.", "EditedTextHTML": "There is room for one more speech, of up to three minutes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C706672", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Domestic Violence", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26755, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 692.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 692.0, "ID": 26755, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 761.0, "ContributionID": 706672, "EditedText": "I apologise to the one member who wanted to speak who could not be called.", "EditedTextHTML": "I apologise to the one member who wanted to speak who could not be called.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1783E59P270C706673", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Domestic Violence", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26755, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 692.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 692.0, "ID": 26755, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Baillie, Jackie", "ID": 1783, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumbarton" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Jackie Baillie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Communities (Jackie Baillie): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 764.0, "ContributionID": 706673, "EditedText": "I join others in congratulating Maureen Macmillan on securing today's end-of-business debate and for raising such an important topic early in the life of the Scottish Parliament. I am disappointed, however, that the usually packed press galleries are virtually empty—not least because of the quality of the debate, but considering the seriousness and importance of the issue that is being debated. All of us continue to be shocked at the extent of domestic abuse and the real and disturbing effect that it has on children who are caught up in such violence, as Cathy has vividly described. Domestic abuse is not peculiar to Scotland, nor is it a modern-day phenomenon. Sadly, the problem has been rooted in society for centuries and has an international dimension. We have an opportunity— a responsibility—to create a climate in Scotland that will not tolerate violence, particularly within the family circle. I am grateful to Maureen for bringing to the attention of Parliament the existence of the Scottish Partnership on Domestic Violence and the draft work plan that it has prepared. The need for a multi-agency approach to domestic abuse was recognised in several recent reports, which is why the Scottish Office adopted that approach in bringing together the key agencies nationally and establishing the partnership. We have a core group of policy advisers in the Scottish Executive that is working alongside experts in the provision of services to victims. That group includes the police, the judiciary, the prison service, the health service, local authorities and victims organisations. The partnership is chaired by Anne Smith QC, and includes representatives from Scottish Women's Aid, Scottish Rape Crisis and Victim Support Scotland. I assure members that the Scottish Executive gives its full support to the work of the partnership, and believes that it will provide us with a model for making a significant impact on service provision to victims of domestic abuse. That model will allow us to deal better with the effect, but we must not lose sight of the need to do more to tackle the cause. Only then can we begin to turn round the situation and make Scotland a safer place for women. The remit of the partnership should put us on that course. It has been asked specifically to develop an action plan that is firmly located in the Government's overall strategy on violence against women. It will, for example, recommend minimum levels of service for women who are experiencing domestic abuse, to provide a consistent delivery of service throughout Scotland. Particular regard will be given to the needs of women from rural areas—a point that was strongly made by Maureen Macmillan—as well as those from ethnic minorities and the disabled. It will also take into account the impact of domestic abuse on children and young people. Importantly, it will consider effective strategies to prevent male violence against female partners and their children. I am sure that all members will agree that that is a challenging and ambitious, but worthwhile, piece of work. The partnership has submitted its work plan to Scottish ministers, which sets out the time scale for the discharge of its remit. Since then, the work plan has been issued as a consultation document. Responses are being analysed and will be considered by the partnership when it meets next on 27 September. I shall attend that meeting and I look forward to seeing the partnership in action. We anticipate that a revised work plan will be published towards the end of October. The Scottish Executive is supporting the work of the partnership with a domestic abuse advertising campaign that will extend over a three-year period. The campaign began last Christmas, with a television advertisement that showed how domestic abuse can start insidiously with verbal abuse. It also showed the distressing effect that such abuse has on children. That has been backed up with advertising on local and community radio as well as with press advertising. I turn briefly to Malcolm's point. We recognise the value of Zero Tolerance Trust public awareness campaign. Members of that organisation have been invited to meet me tomorrow to discuss their forward work plan. I now address the experience of women in rural areas, which was highlighted by Maureen Macmillan. It is clear that women in outlying islands and other remote areas face the greatest difficulty in gaining access to the services that are vital to their needs. I am aware that there is no Women's Aid provision in Orkney, and that therefore no refuge is available, although I am delighted that the council is making positive efforts. The nearest provision of such services requires victims to travel to Dingwall or Inverness. The picture is the same on Shetland and the Western Isles, specialist services being available only on the mainland. We know there are gaps in provision and we also know there are inconsistencies in the way such services operate. That is why the work of the partnership is so important. In terms of service provision, the bases of statutory services are generally found at a range of locations throughout rural areas. Nevertheless, the very size of such areas means that many communities will be distant from outlying services. This makes access to emergency services very difficult for women experiencing abuse. I know that in many rural areas few local services are provided and transport is clearly a major factor with low levels of service, high costs and lengthy journeys. Community issues such as lack of privacy and lack of confidentiality bring other difficulties. I am very concerned that in some of the remote and rural communities there is often an acceptance and tolerance of domestic abuse, often resulting in isolation and marginalisation of those attempting to address it. I am pleased that the partnership will specifically address the very wide range of issues affecting women in rural as well as urban areas. I expect the recommendations they submit for consideration by Scottish ministers will be wide- ranging but practical. I am absolutely clear in my mind that it is incumbent on all of us—local authorities, the health service, voluntary organisations and the Scottish Executive—to get far better co-ordination and a level of provision that is consistent with the needs of the victims of domestic abuse. The services provided by Women's Aid and other organisations are often an oasis in a desert of despair and hopelessness for many women seeking to escape. I echo the points made by Maureen Macmillan and extend my support and thanks to those volunteers—and I know Maureen is one of them—who do such a marvellous job. I share the concerns expressed by a number of members about funding and I am well aware that many women's groups experience difficulties. Women's Aid in particular have expressed their concern that there is no consistency of approach and therefore no security on offer to allow them to plan for the future and improve the quality of and expand the range of services they provide. Those are matters that will also be considered by the partnership, but I assure you that they also exercise my mind and I hope we can devise an acceptable arrangement to improve the current position. The partnership is charged with devising a national strategy, and the issue of funding is implicit in that. However, it is worth pointing out that last year funding amounting to almost £370,000. A grant of £30,000 was also made to Victim Support Scotland to provide, in association with Women's Aid, a telephone counselling and advice service for those using the freephone helpline facility set up to support the domestic abuse advertising campaign. In addition, Scottish Homes gave grant funding of £136,000 to three projects for households that had suffered domestic violence. That provided 20 units of 39 bed spaces, a long way short of what is needed, and I agree that is essential that those services and refuge spaces are there. I welcome the opportunity provided by Maureen to demonstrate the level of priority and seriousness given by the Scottish Executive to the battle to eradicate violence against women. I am pleased to record publicly my gratitude to the members of the partnership for their efforts to date, and particularly my gratitude for the services provided by Women's Aid and other voluntary and statutory organisations in dealing with the victims of abuse. There is still much to do before Scotland can begin to have a feeling of pride in the way it has tackled domestic abuse. We have embarked on a challenging and ambitious future. I want this Parliament to make a difference.", "EditedTextHTML": "I join others in congratulating Maureen Macmillan on securing today's end-of-business debate and for raising such an important topic early in the life of the Scottish Parliament. I am disappointed, however, that the usually packed press galleries are virtually empty—not least because of the quality of the debate, but considering the seriousness and importance of the issue that is being debated.

All of us continue to be shocked at the extent of domestic abuse and the real and disturbing effect that it has on children who are caught up in such violence, as Cathy has vividly described. Domestic abuse is not peculiar to Scotland, nor is it a modern-day phenomenon. Sadly, the problem has been rooted in society for centuries and has an international dimension. We have an opportunity— a responsibility—to create a climate in Scotland that will not tolerate violence, particularly within the family circle.

I am grateful to Maureen for bringing to the attention of Parliament the existence of the Scottish Partnership on Domestic Violence and the draft work plan that it has prepared. The need for a multi-agency approach to domestic abuse was recognised in several recent reports, which is

why the Scottish Office adopted that approach in bringing together the key agencies nationally and establishing the partnership. We have a core group of policy advisers in the Scottish Executive that is working alongside experts in the provision of services to victims. That group includes the police, the judiciary, the prison service, the health service, local authorities and victims organisations. The partnership is chaired by Anne Smith QC, and includes representatives from Scottish Women's Aid, Scottish Rape Crisis and Victim Support Scotland.

I assure members that the Scottish Executive gives its full support to the work of the partnership, and believes that it will provide us with a model for making a significant impact on service provision to victims of domestic abuse. That model will allow us to deal better with the effect, but we must not lose sight of the need to do more to tackle the cause. Only then can we begin to turn round the situation and make Scotland a safer place for women.

The remit of the partnership should put us on that course. It has been asked specifically to develop an action plan that is firmly located in the Government's overall strategy on violence against women. It will, for example, recommend minimum levels of service for women who are experiencing domestic abuse, to provide a consistent delivery of service throughout Scotland. Particular regard will be given to the needs of women from rural areas—a point that was strongly made by Maureen Macmillan—as well as those from ethnic minorities and the disabled. It will also take into account the impact of domestic abuse on children and young people. Importantly, it will consider effective strategies to prevent male violence against female partners and their children. I am sure that all members will agree that that is a challenging and ambitious, but worthwhile, piece of work.

The partnership has submitted its work plan to Scottish ministers, which sets out the time scale for the discharge of its remit. Since then, the work plan has been issued as a consultation document. Responses are being analysed and will be considered by the partnership when it meets next on 27 September. I shall attend that meeting and I look forward to seeing the partnership in action. We anticipate that a revised work plan will be published towards the end of October.

The Scottish Executive is supporting the work of the partnership with a domestic abuse advertising campaign that will extend over a three-year period. The campaign began last Christmas, with a television advertisement that showed how domestic abuse can start insidiously with verbal abuse. It also showed the distressing effect that such abuse has on children. That has been backed up with advertising on local and community radio as well as with press advertising.

I turn briefly to Malcolm's point. We recognise the value of Zero Tolerance Trust public awareness campaign. Members of that organisation have been invited to meet me tomorrow to discuss their forward work plan.

I now address the experience of women in rural areas, which was highlighted by Maureen Macmillan. It is clear that women in outlying islands and other remote areas face the greatest difficulty in gaining access to the services that are vital to their needs. I am aware that there is no Women's Aid provision in Orkney, and that therefore no refuge is available, although I am delighted that the council is making positive efforts. The nearest provision of such services requires victims to travel to Dingwall or Inverness. The picture is the same on Shetland and the Western Isles, specialist services being available only on the mainland.

We know there are gaps in provision and we also know there are inconsistencies in the way such services operate. That is why the work of the partnership is so important. In terms of service provision, the bases of statutory services are generally found at a range of locations throughout rural areas. Nevertheless, the very size of such areas means that many communities will be distant from outlying services. This makes access to emergency services very difficult for women experiencing abuse.

I know that in many rural areas few local services are provided and transport is clearly a major factor with low levels of service, high costs and lengthy journeys. Community issues such as lack of privacy and lack of confidentiality bring other difficulties. I am very concerned that in some of the remote and rural communities there is often an acceptance and tolerance of domestic abuse, often resulting in isolation and marginalisation of those attempting to address it.

I am pleased that the partnership will specifically address the very wide range of issues affecting women in rural as well as urban areas. I expect the recommendations they submit for consideration by Scottish ministers will be wide- ranging but practical. I am absolutely clear in my mind that it is incumbent on all of us—local authorities, the health service, voluntary organisations and the Scottish Executive—to get far better co-ordination and a level of provision that is consistent with the needs of the victims of domestic abuse.

The services provided by Women's Aid and other organisations are often an oasis in a desert of despair and hopelessness for many women seeking to escape. I echo the points made by

Maureen Macmillan and extend my support and thanks to those volunteers—and I know Maureen is one of them—who do such a marvellous job.

I share the concerns expressed by a number of members about funding and I am well aware that many women's groups experience difficulties. Women's Aid in particular have expressed their concern that there is no consistency of approach and therefore no security on offer to allow them to plan for the future and improve the quality of and expand the range of services they provide. Those are matters that will also be considered by the partnership, but I assure you that they also exercise my mind and I hope we can devise an acceptable arrangement to improve the current position.

The partnership is charged with devising a national strategy, and the issue of funding is implicit in that. However, it is worth pointing out that last year funding amounting to almost £370,000. A grant of £30,000 was also made to Victim Support Scotland to provide, in association with Women's Aid, a telephone counselling and advice service for those using the freephone helpline facility set up to support the domestic abuse advertising campaign.

In addition, Scottish Homes gave grant funding of £136,000 to three projects for households that had suffered domestic violence. That provided 20 units of 39 bed spaces, a long way short of what is needed, and I agree that is essential that those services and refuge spaces are there.

I welcome the opportunity provided by Maureen to demonstrate the level of priority and seriousness given by the Scottish Executive to the battle to eradicate violence against women. I am pleased to record publicly my gratitude to the members of the partnership for their efforts to date, and particularly my gratitude for the services provided by Women's Aid and other voluntary and statutory organisations in dealing with the victims of abuse. There is still much to do before Scotland can begin to have a feeling of pride in the way it has tackled domestic abuse. We have embarked on a challenging and ambitious future. I want this Parliament to make a difference.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:18:48.0221515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1870E181P475C706661", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Domestic Violence", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26755, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 692.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 692.0, "ID": 26755, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robison, Shona", "ID": 1870, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Shona Robison", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Shona Robison (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 731.0, "ContributionID": 706661, "EditedText": "As Maureen has already said, domestic violence affects all sections of society. It does not depend on class or whether people live in rural or urban areas; it affects all sections of society. As has been said, women's aid groups provide excellent services throughout Scotland, despite their piecemeal funding. Helen Liddell's Scottish Office campaign against domestic violence raised expectations, as Dorothy said. The worst aspect of that was that the expectations were not met and many of the women who subsequently phoned the helpline were not found refuge places. It must have taken a lot to reach the stage of being able to leave a violent relationship and make that difficult decision, but not receiving the service they expected must have been a difficult blow. We are aware of the acute difficulties in rural areas and the lack of refuge spaces. I would support the move to consider that as a matter of urgency. Much has been said about physical abuse, but I want to make a couple of comments about the psychological abuse that many women experience. People ask why women do not leave. They do not leave because they do not have the self-confidence left to make that decision. We must raise those women's self-confidence and enable them to make the decision, but we must ensure that services exist for them once they have. I call for a national funding strategy so that no matter where they live in Scotland, women can leave a violent relationship.", "EditedTextHTML": "As Maureen has already said, domestic violence affects all sections of society. It does not depend on class or whether people live in rural or urban areas; it affects all sections of society.

As has been said, women's aid groups provide excellent services throughout Scotland, despite their piecemeal funding. Helen Liddell's Scottish Office campaign against domestic violence raised expectations, as Dorothy said. The worst aspect of that was that the expectations were not met and many of the women who subsequently phoned the helpline were not found refuge places. It must have taken a lot to reach the stage of being able to leave a violent relationship and make that difficult decision, but not receiving the service they expected must have been a difficult blow.

We are aware of the acute difficulties in rural areas and the lack of refuge spaces. I would support the move to consider that as a matter of urgency.

Much has been said about physical abuse, but I want to make a couple of comments about the psychological abuse that many women experience. People ask why women do not leave. They do not leave because they do not have the self-confidence left to make that decision. We must raise those women's self-confidence and enable them to make the decision, but we must ensure that services exist for them once they have.

I call for a national funding strategy so that no matter where they live in Scotland, women can leave a violent relationship.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:00:40.809978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C706495", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26729, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26730, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 320.0, "QuestionHeading": "Rail Services (Edinburgh–Shotts–Glasgow)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26734, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 352.0, "DisplayOrder": 352.0, "ID": 26734, "ParentID": 26730 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 359.0, "ContributionID": 706495, "EditedText": "Not directly as the Scottish Executive. However, the introduction of a four- times-an-hour train service on the Glasgow- Linlithgow-Edinburgh line will lead to a cascade of ScotRail trains throughout the network. Then there will be the possibility of higher quality trains on the Glasgow-Shotts-Edinburgh line.", "EditedTextHTML": "Not directly as the Scottish Executive. However, the introduction of a four- times-an-hour train service on the Glasgow- Linlithgow-Edinburgh line will lead to a cascade of ScotRail trains throughout the network. Then there will be the possibility of higher quality trains on the Glasgow-Shotts-Edinburgh line.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:08.9050713+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C706510", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26729, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26730, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 320.0, "QuestionHeading": "Rail Services (Glasgow to Cumbernauld)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26737, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 383.0, "DisplayOrder": 383.0, "ID": 26737, "ParentID": 26730 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 392.0, "ContributionID": 706510, "EditedText": "We have plans for £18.3 million for this year and the next two years under the Freight Facilities Grant; £90 million will be available over the next three years for the Public Transport Fund, while £14 million will be available from the Rural Transport Fund. In addition, there are payments to Strathclyde Passenger Transport from the Scottish Executive for rail passenger services provided by ScotRail, which will amount to £88.3 million for 1999-2000. Under devolution, the Scottish Executive will secure responsibility for funding the rest of the ScotRail franchise; this year this is worth £120.4 million.", "EditedTextHTML": "We have plans for £18.3 million for this year and the next two years under the Freight Facilities Grant; £90 million will be available over the next three years for the Public Transport Fund, while £14 million will be available from the Rural Transport Fund.

In addition, there are payments to Strathclyde Passenger Transport from the Scottish Executive for rail passenger services provided by ScotRail, which will amount to £88.3 million for 1999-2000. Under devolution, the Scottish Executive will secure responsibility for funding the rest of the ScotRail franchise; this year this is worth £120.4 million.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:08.9050713+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2180E179P471C706609", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Cultural Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26753, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 581.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 581.0, "ID": 26753, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lochhead, Richard", "ID": 2180, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Lochhead", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Richard Lochhead (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 611.0, "ContributionID": 706609, "EditedText": "I welcome the debate on Scottish culture. It is great to see us grabbing the cultural thistle so early in the first session of the Scottish Parliament. I agree with Elaine that if there were no Scottish culture, there would be no Scottish Parliament. I want to seek a couple of assurances and to raise some concerns. I want to be assured that \"Celebrating Scotland\" is not simply another glossy document full of warm words and nice phrases. Let us have a refreshing approach from the Executive—a response to the recommendation with a plan of action that is properly resourced. That is essential. It is crucial that running through the strategy is a thread that recognises the importance of allowing Scottish culture to develop as opposed to dictating that development. Many people outwith the Parliament are sceptical about the document. Last night, I spoke to my colleague, Sandy Stronach, who is a great champion of Doric in the north-east of Scotland and who helps to organise the Doric festival, which is coming up in a short time. He looked at the document and said that he thought that, as usual, more effort had gone into the design than into its content. It is no wonder that people such as Sandy Stronach are so sceptical when they see the membership of the focus group. \"Representative\" was not the word that Sandy used to describe it. That is no wonder when we consider the diverse cultural traditions throughout Scotland and then consider the focus group. At the centre of any approach to Scottish culture must be a recognition of the unquantifiable contribution of many thousands of groups and agencies around the country. They are the people in the front line, the people who develop Scottish culture. The document is called \"Celebrating Scotland\". In celebrating Scotland, we have to remember to celebrate the whole of Scotland. We need a bottom-up process, not a top-down process. That means channelling support and funding to the many groups around the country, and that is where we can help to develop Scottish culture. In the document, I would like to have seen more recognition of the role of local authorities. Local authorities are usually left to pick up the tab to help organisations that are trying to develop Scottish culture by teaching all of us about it and by involving us in it. The local authorities are strapped for cash and, in turn, many of the groups that they help to fund are strapped for cash. We must remember that. Local authorities and agencies create many diverse cultural initiatives. The recent opening of Dundee Contemporary Arts—a world-class and award-winning facility—is an example of the achievement of a local objective. Yet only 65 miles up the road, in the city of Aberdeen, we see the Aberdeen Arts Centre going round cap in hand to oil companies and local businesses, trying to get cash to survive. That arts centre is an important facility and venue in Aberdeen, and it is important that central Government should step in to help such organisations. Another area where local authorities and agencies play a key role is in film production. Over recent years we have seen a complete lack of support from successive Governments for Scotland's film-producing community. As a result, many local authorities and agencies have stepped in to fill the gap, creating, for example, film commissions. Much of Scotland now has such commissions; there are especially successful ones in Glasgow, Edinburgh and the Highlands and Islands, as well as two or three in other areas. New film initiatives are being developed in, for example, Tayside and Lanarkshire. Central Government has played absolutely no role in achieving those ends. Scottish Screen has assisted but it has been unable to give any direct financial assistance because it is strapped for cash as well. That is where central Government could come into play. The film commissions provide training for scriptwriters, film-makers and so on, but they also provide an economic benefit for the local communities, which can promote themselves as film locations. In \"Mission: Impossible\"—and I am talking about the film starring Tom Cruise, not the Labour candidate's task in the Hamilton South by- election—the scene on top of the train was filmed in Dumfriesshire. Two weeks' shooting put £100,000 into the local economy, and that came about because of the local film initiative. That is the way in which central Government can step in and help local authorities and agencies. It is important that the message from the new Scottish Executive is not the message that we were getting from Downing Street in previous years. Its cultural icons are things such as the millennium dome. Hundreds of millions of pounds could have gone into sustaining many of our local cultural organisations instead of London's dome. I welcome the opportunity today perhaps to hear the minister condemn the millennium dome and say that the Executive will put money into Scottish organisations from now on.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the debate on Scottish culture. It is great to see us grabbing the cultural thistle so early in the first session of the Scottish Parliament. I agree with Elaine that if there were no Scottish culture, there would be no Scottish Parliament.

I want to seek a couple of assurances and to raise some concerns. I want to be assured that \"Celebrating Scotland\" is not simply another glossy document full of warm words and nice phrases. Let us have a refreshing approach from the Executive—a response to the recommendation with a plan of action that is properly resourced. That is essential. It is crucial that running through the strategy is a thread that recognises the importance of allowing Scottish culture to develop as opposed to dictating that development.

Many people outwith the Parliament are sceptical about the document. Last night, I spoke to my colleague, Sandy Stronach, who is a great champion of Doric in the north-east of Scotland and who helps to organise the Doric festival, which is coming up in a short time. He looked at the document and said that he thought that, as usual, more effort had gone into the design than into its content.

It is no wonder that people such as Sandy Stronach are so sceptical when they see the membership of the focus group. \"Representative\" was not the word that Sandy used to describe it. That is no wonder when we consider the diverse cultural traditions throughout Scotland and then consider the focus group.

At the centre of any approach to Scottish culture must be a recognition of the unquantifiable contribution of many thousands of groups and agencies around the country. They are the people in the front line, the people who develop Scottish culture.

The document is called \"Celebrating Scotland\". In celebrating Scotland, we have to remember to celebrate the whole of Scotland. We need a bottom-up process, not a top-down process. That means channelling support and funding to the many groups around the country, and that is where we can help to develop Scottish culture.

In the document, I would like to have seen more recognition of the role of local authorities. Local authorities are usually left to pick up the tab to help organisations that are trying to develop Scottish culture by teaching all of us about it and by involving us in it. The local authorities are strapped for cash and, in turn, many of the groups that they help to fund are strapped for cash. We must remember that.

Local authorities and agencies create many diverse cultural initiatives. The recent opening of Dundee Contemporary Arts—a world-class and award-winning facility—is an example of the achievement of a local objective. Yet only 65 miles up the road, in the city of Aberdeen, we see the Aberdeen Arts Centre going round cap in hand to oil companies and local businesses, trying to get cash to survive. That arts centre is an important facility and venue in Aberdeen, and it is important that central Government should step in to help such organisations.

Another area where local authorities and agencies play a key role is in film production. Over

recent years we have seen a complete lack of support from successive Governments for Scotland's film-producing community. As a result, many local authorities and agencies have stepped in to fill the gap, creating, for example, film commissions. Much of Scotland now has such commissions; there are especially successful ones in Glasgow, Edinburgh and the Highlands and Islands, as well as two or three in other areas. New film initiatives are being developed in, for example, Tayside and Lanarkshire. Central Government has played absolutely no role in achieving those ends. Scottish Screen has assisted but it has been unable to give any direct financial assistance because it is strapped for cash as well. That is where central Government could come into play.

The film commissions provide training for scriptwriters, film-makers and so on, but they also provide an economic benefit for the local communities, which can promote themselves as film locations. In \"Mission: Impossible\"—and I am talking about the film starring Tom Cruise, not the Labour candidate's task in the Hamilton South by- election—the scene on top of the train was filmed in Dumfriesshire. Two weeks' shooting put £100,000 into the local economy, and that came about because of the local film initiative. That is the way in which central Government can step in and help local authorities and agencies.

It is important that the message from the new Scottish Executive is not the message that we were getting from Downing Street in previous years. Its cultural icons are things such as the millennium dome. Hundreds of millions of pounds could have gone into sustaining many of our local cultural organisations instead of London's dome. I welcome the opportunity today perhaps to hear the minister condemn the millennium dome and say that the Executive will put money into Scottish organisations from now on.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:31.1569345+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2133E222P520C706451", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Matheson, Michael", "ID": 2133, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Matheson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Matheson (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 263.0, "ContributionID": 706451, "EditedText": "A number of members have highlighted the importance of public safety. That is reflected by the fact that the minister has chosen to include public safety in the title of the bill. However, we must ensure that we achieve a balance between public safety and the human rights of the individual. The bill is a major departure from the thinking that was current when the Mental Health (Scotland) Act 1984 was introduced. If we create additional legal measures to detain people in hospital, it is essential that we provide those people with treatment while they are in hospital. I recognise that there is considerable tension between ensuring public safety and protecting the rights of the individual. There is also considerable tension between assessing risk and maintaining public confidence. Those may be difficult issues, but it is important that they are addressed during the bill's passage through Parliament. A number of important issues have been raised, both in the earlier debate and by several speakers in this one. One issue was that Mr Noel Ruddle had for some time been recommended for a specific form of treatment, yet did not receive that treatment during the years in which he was in hospital. There would be a public outcry if that happened to someone who was waiting for a hip replacement in the Edinburgh royal infirmary. Too often services provided to those who have a mental illness are seen as second class and of a lower priority. I hope that the Minister for Health and Community Care will address that when she sums up. The role of the responsible medical officer is essential in the process of ensuring the protection of someone's right to treatment while they are detained in hospital. In the Noel Ruddle case, the responsible medical officer seems to have recommended for some time that Mr Ruddle should be provided with a particular form of treatment. Is the process whereby the responsible medical officer has to inform formerly the secretary of state and now the First Minister being adhered to? Is notice being taken of what the medical officer is stating? I want an assurance from the minister that the specific form of treatment recommended by the responsible medical officer will be provided during a person's detention. I want to ensure that the provision of appropriate therapeutic intervention for individuals in a hospital is not necessarily given with the view that the treatment must be provided within that hospital setting. The individual should have the opportunity to go to another establishment for the required treatment. As it has been decided to allow the Mental Welfare Commission to examine treatment within Carstairs, I ask the minister to confirm that appropriate resources will be provided to implement any recommendations that the commission makes. A number of members have raised concerns about the definition of personality disorder. The definition is extremely general in the bill. Does the minister intend the bill to cover all individuals who have a personality disorder? As has been highlighted, many people who have a personality disorder pose no risk to society or to themselves. It is essential that individuals who suffer from a personality disorder do not find themselves on the wrong side of the law as a result of the powers in this bill.", "EditedTextHTML": "A number of members have highlighted the importance of public safety. That is reflected by the fact that the minister has chosen to include public safety in the title of the bill. However, we must ensure that we achieve a balance between public safety and the human rights of the individual.

The bill is a major departure from the thinking that was current when the Mental Health (Scotland) Act 1984 was introduced. If we create additional legal measures to detain people in hospital, it is essential that we provide those people with treatment while they are in hospital. I recognise that there is considerable tension between ensuring public safety and protecting the rights of the individual. There is also considerable tension between assessing risk and maintaining public confidence. Those may be difficult issues, but it is important that they are addressed during the bill's passage through Parliament.

A number of important issues have been raised, both in the earlier debate and by several speakers in this one. One issue was that Mr Noel Ruddle had for some time been recommended for a specific form of treatment, yet did not receive that treatment during the years in which he was in hospital. There would be a public outcry if that happened to someone who was waiting for a hip replacement in the Edinburgh royal infirmary. Too often services provided to those who have a mental illness are seen as second class and of a lower priority. I hope that the Minister for Health and Community Care will address that when she sums up.

The role of the responsible medical officer is essential in the process of ensuring the protection of someone's right to treatment while they are detained in hospital. In the Noel Ruddle case, the responsible medical officer seems to have recommended for some time that Mr Ruddle should be provided with a particular form of treatment. Is the process whereby the responsible medical officer has to inform formerly the secretary of state and now the First Minister being adhered to? Is notice being taken of what the medical officer is stating? I want an assurance from the minister that the specific form of treatment recommended by the responsible medical officer will be provided during a person's detention.

I want to ensure that the provision of appropriate therapeutic intervention for individuals in a hospital is not necessarily given with the view that the treatment must be provided within that hospital setting. The individual should have the opportunity to go to another establishment for the required treatment. As it has been decided to allow the Mental Welfare Commission to examine treatment within Carstairs, I ask the minister to confirm that appropriate resources will be provided to implement any recommendations that the commission makes.

A number of members have raised concerns about the definition of personality disorder. The definition is extremely general in the bill. Does the minister intend the bill to cover all individuals who have a personality disorder? As has been highlighted, many people who have a personality disorder pose no risk to society or to themselves. It is essential that individuals who suffer from a personality disorder do not find themselves on the wrong side of the law as a result of the powers in this bill.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:20.9670782+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1756E184P464C706411", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Grahame, Christine", "ID": 1756, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Christine Grahame", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Christine Grahame rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 183.0, "ContributionID": 706411, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:00:34.116328+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706327", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Thursday 2 September 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26727, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26727, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 2.0, "ContributionID": 706327, "EditedText": "THE PRESIDING OFFICER opened the meeting at 09:30", "EditedTextHTML": "[THE PRESIDING OFFICER opened the meeting at 09:30]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C706333", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon (Argyll and Bute) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 16.0, "ContributionID": 706333, "EditedText": "On a point of order, Presiding Officer. Will Roseanna Cunningham clarify whether she is speaking in her capacity as the Convener of the Justice and Home Affairs Committee, or as—", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order, Presiding Officer. Will Roseanna Cunningham clarify whether she is speaking in her capacity as the Convener of the Justice and Home Affairs Committee, or as—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C706336", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Jim Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 22.0, "ContributionID": 706336, "EditedText": "I must answer that point. It has been explained to Roseanna Cunningham that, in the first case in question, the intimation of the appeal was made only on the day of the meeting. Even if the appeal were to succeed in that case, the applicant would be transferred to prison. The clear advice that I was given, based oncareful consideration of the cases, was that the other case was materially different from Ruddle's. It therefore did not fall into the same category as the handful of cases on which our discussions focused. I did not mislead her.", "EditedTextHTML": "I must answer that point. It has been explained to Roseanna Cunningham that, in the first case in question, the intimation of the appeal was made only on the day of the meeting. Even if the appeal were to succeed in that case, the applicant would be transferred to prison.

The clear advice that I was given, based on

careful consideration of the cases, was that the other case was materially different from Ruddle's. It therefore did not fall into the same category as the handful of cases on which our discussions focused. I did not mislead her.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1863E284P532C706339", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Cunningham, Roseanna", "ID": 1863, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Perth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Roseanna Cunningham", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Roseanna Cunningham: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 28.0, "ContributionID": 706339, "EditedText": "The minister may say that it is true that he was not there, but that does not help his case. The phrase that he used at the committee meeting seemed vaguely familiar to me, and then I remembered why. There are three well-known defences in Scots law. The first I had better not repeat for fear of incurring the Presiding Officer's wrath, but I will let him in on the secret afterwards. The second is that a big boy did it and ran away— that is clear enough, I suppose. The third is, \"It wisnae me; I wisnae there,\" and that is what the minister is saying about his position. Obviously, the minister remembers that defence well from his years at the Scottish bar—so well that he thought that he would try it out for himself when he got into a corner. As a plea in this case, it is a total non-starter. Whether Mr Wallace likes it or not, he took the job, he took the money and now he has to take the responsibility. That leaves him swinging gently in the breeze—no doubt that is where his coalition partners would like to leave him.", "EditedTextHTML": "The minister may say that it is true that he was not there, but that does not help his case.

The phrase that he used at the committee meeting seemed vaguely familiar to me, and then I remembered why. There are three well-known defences in Scots law. The first I had better not repeat for fear of incurring the Presiding Officer's wrath, but I will let him in on the secret afterwards. The second is that a big boy did it and ran away— that is clear enough, I suppose. The third is, \"It wisnae me; I wisnae there,\" and that is what the minister is saying about his position.

Obviously, the minister remembers that defence well from his years at the Scottish bar—so well that he thought that he would try it out for himself when he got into a corner. As a plea in this case, it is a total non-starter. Whether Mr Wallace likes it or not, he took the job, he took the money and now he has to take the responsibility. That leaves him swinging gently in the breeze—no doubt that is where his coalition partners would like to leave him.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1803E78P291C706341", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gillon, Karen", "ID": 1803, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Clydesdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Karen Gillon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Karen Gillon (Clydesdale) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 32.0, "ContributionID": 706341, "EditedText": "Will Roseanna Cunningham give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Roseanna Cunningham give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1803E78P291C706343", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gillon, Karen", "ID": 1803, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Clydesdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Karen Gillon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Karen Gillon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 36.0, "ContributionID": 706343, "EditedText": "Will Roseanna Cunningham give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Roseanna Cunningham give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C706350", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 51.0, "ContributionID": 706350, "EditedText": "Thank you, Mr Presiding Officer. On behalf of the Scottish Conservative party, I am pleased to confirm our support for the motion calling for the Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill to be treated as an emergency bill. We have been urging the Scottish Executive to treat the matter with the urgency that it deserves since the sheriff's decision in the Ruddle case was first announced on 2 August. Mr Ruddle was released from Carstairs notwithstanding the fact that his state of mental health was such—whether treatable or untreatable—that he represented a danger both to the public and, lest it be forgotten, potentially to himself. It is a matter of urgency that we close the loophole in the law used by Mr Ruddle to gain his freedom and which others might seek to exploit in pending cases—other cases that might come before our courts before we have the comprehensive review of mental health legislation following the reports of the MacLean and Millan committees and any subsequent legislation that we might enact. However, although we welcome and support the motion, it provides an opportunity for the Parliament, in plenary session, to consider the way in which both the minister and the Scottish Executive have handled the matter. There are lessons to be learned from this affair in terms of the conduct of the Government and the relationship between the Executive and the Parliament. The first charge that we lay at the door of the minister is one of complacency. Mr Wallace and Mr Dewar failed to pull out all the legal stops to try to keep Mr Ruddle in detention. It was open to them to seek a judicial review in the Court of Session of the decision to grant Mr Ruddle his freedom, coupled with an interim suspension of the discharge order, pending consideration of that application. I fully accept that there was no guarantee that such an application would have been successful and have resulted in the detention of Mr Ruddle, but it should at least have been attempted. In the opinion of experts, such as the former Lord Advocate, Lord Mackay of Drumadoon and the former Solicitor General, Paul Cullen QC, there was a stateable case for a review, based on the failure of the sheriff to explain in his judgment why he discounted the evidence of one of the psychiatrists who believed that Mr Ruddle's condition was treatable. I find it very difficult to believe that, given the time that the Executive had to consider the matter and the legal advice at its disposal, the minister could not have instructed the presentation of a stateable case to the court. As Ms Cunningham said in her speech, let us not forget that the Ruddle decision did not come out of the blue on 2 August. The hearing before the sheriff was concluded in May. The minister told the Justice and Home Affairs Committee on Tuesday this week that he was advised of the pending decision on 14 July.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you, Mr Presiding Officer.

On behalf of the Scottish Conservative party, I am pleased to confirm our support for the motion calling for the Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill to be treated as an emergency bill.

We have been urging the Scottish Executive to treat the matter with the urgency that it deserves since the sheriff's decision in the Ruddle case was first announced on 2 August. Mr Ruddle was released from Carstairs notwithstanding the fact that his state of mental health was such—whether treatable or untreatable—that he represented a danger both to the public and, lest it be forgotten, potentially to himself.

It is a matter of urgency that we close the loophole in the law used by Mr Ruddle to gain his freedom and which others might seek to exploit in pending cases—other cases that might come before our courts before we have the comprehensive review of mental health legislation following the reports of the MacLean and Millan committees and any subsequent legislation that we might enact. However, although we welcome and support the motion, it provides an opportunity for the Parliament, in plenary session, to consider the way in which both the minister and the Scottish Executive have handled the matter. There are lessons to be learned from this affair in terms of the conduct of the Government and the relationship between the Executive and the Parliament.

The first charge that we lay at the door of the minister is one of complacency. Mr Wallace and Mr Dewar failed to pull out all the legal stops to try to keep Mr Ruddle in detention. It was open to them to seek a judicial review in the Court of Session of the decision to grant Mr Ruddle his freedom, coupled with an interim suspension of the discharge order, pending consideration of that application. I fully accept that there was no guarantee that such an application would have been successful and have resulted in the detention of Mr Ruddle, but it should at least have been attempted. In the opinion of experts, such as the former Lord Advocate, Lord Mackay of Drumadoon and the former Solicitor General, Paul Cullen QC, there was a stateable case for a review, based on the failure of the sheriff to explain in his judgment why he discounted the evidence of one of the psychiatrists who believed that Mr Ruddle's condition was treatable.

I find it very difficult to believe that, given the time that the Executive had to consider the matter and the legal advice at its disposal, the minister could not have instructed the presentation of a stateable case to the court. As Ms Cunningham said in her speech, let us not forget that the Ruddle decision did not come out of the blue on 2 August. The hearing before the sheriff was concluded in May. The minister told the Justice and Home Affairs Committee on Tuesday this week that he was advised of the pending decision on 14 July.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C706354", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 59.0, "ContributionID": 706354, "EditedText": "I think that Mr Wallace will accept that he was advised that there was an important pending decision and that an adverse decision might have led to the release of Mr Ruddle. That was a serious possibility, which was brought to his attention on 14 July. Moreover, the minister, as I am sure he will confirm, told the committee that \"allowing for the possibility that Mr Ruddle might have been discharged, efforts were made to put a care package in place before that Monday\"— that is Monday 2 August. If efforts were being made to prepare for defeat in terms of Mr Ruddle's care on discharge, why were contingency plans not being made at the same time to challenge that decision in a higher court? That was a massive failure of political leadership on the part of the Deputy First Minister. He constantly jumped to conclusions and was far too keen to accept the advice that was given, when he should have been doing everything that he could to ensure public safety. The second charge relates to the minister's failure fully to disclose the position in relation to other cases in his dealings with Opposition parties—part of which has already been covered in his exchange with Roseanna Cunningham. I accept that one case that subsequently came to light is not relevant. However, that is not true of the case of Mr Tonner. The minister justified his failure to disclose—he confirmed it this morning— on the ground that it was \"found that the other case had distinguishing features that did not make it appear to be in the same class as the Ruddle case.\"—Official Report, Justice and Home Affairs Committee, 31 August 1999; c 30, 28. That is legal hair-splitting and I have to ask: \"found\" by whom and \"appeared\" to whom? It certainly was not the sheriff, who has not even heard the evidence yet. It was Mr Wallace's advisers who were making a judgment on the evidence and how it would be assessed by the sheriff. The truth is that the minister did not know then, and does not know today, what judgment will be passed on that evidence, because it is not his decision. Given the minister's proclaimed commitment to openness and freedom of information, I find it astonishing that he should take the approach that he has in dealing with Ms Cunningham and myself. The third charge to be examined is that of foot- dragging in introducing this new legislation. The minister maintains that his response has been rapid, set in train by his statement of 4 August, following our meeting. However, studying his statement, I see not one word in it about emergency legislation. Instead, there is simply a reference to Lord MacLean being asked to accelerate the work of his committee. It was Ms Cunningham and myself who pressed the issue of emergency legislation, whereas—as the notes of the meeting will confirm, and the Deputy Minister for Community Care, Mr Iain Gray, should be able to confirm it as well because he was there—the minister's response was guarded, to say the least, and contained no suggestion that legislation would be brought to this Parliament on anything like the accelerated timetable that we are now being asked to approve.", "EditedTextHTML": "I think that Mr Wallace will accept that he was advised that there was an important pending decision and that an adverse decision might have led to the release of Mr Ruddle. That was a serious possibility, which was brought to his attention on 14 July. Moreover, the minister, as I am sure he will confirm, told the committee that

\"allowing for the possibility that Mr Ruddle might have been discharged, efforts were made to put a care package in place before that Monday\"— that is Monday 2 August.

If efforts were being made to prepare for defeat in terms of Mr Ruddle's care on discharge, why were contingency plans not being made at the same time to challenge that decision in a higher court? That was a massive failure of political leadership on the part of the Deputy First Minister. He constantly jumped to conclusions and was far too keen to accept the advice that was given, when he should have been doing everything that he could to ensure public safety.

The second charge relates to the minister's failure fully to disclose the position in relation to other cases in his dealings with Opposition parties—part of which has already been covered in his exchange with Roseanna Cunningham.

I accept that one case that subsequently came to light is not relevant. However, that is not true of the case of Mr Tonner. The minister justified his failure to disclose—he confirmed it this morning— on the ground that it was

\"found that the other case had distinguishing features that did not make it appear to be in the same class as the Ruddle case.\"—[Official Report, Justice and Home Affairs Committee, 31 August 1999; c 30, 28.]

That is legal hair-splitting and I have to ask: \"found\" by whom and \"appeared\" to whom? It certainly was not the sheriff, who has not even heard the evidence yet.

It was Mr Wallace's advisers who were making a judgment on the evidence and how it would be assessed by the sheriff. The truth is that the minister did not know then, and does not know today, what judgment will be passed on that evidence, because it is not his decision. Given the minister's proclaimed commitment to openness and freedom of information, I find it astonishing that he should take the approach that he has in dealing with Ms Cunningham and myself.

The third charge to be examined is that of foot- dragging in introducing this new legislation. The minister maintains that his response has been rapid, set in train by his statement of 4 August, following our meeting. However, studying his statement, I see not one word in it about emergency legislation. Instead, there is simply a reference to Lord MacLean being asked to accelerate the work of his committee. It was Ms Cunningham and myself who pressed the issue of emergency legislation, whereas—as the notes of the meeting will confirm, and the Deputy Minister for Community Care, Mr Iain Gray, should be able to confirm it as well because he was there—the minister's response was guarded, to say the least, and contained no suggestion that legislation would be brought to this Parliament on anything like the accelerated timetable that we are now being asked to approve.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C706355", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 61.0, "ContributionID": 706355, "EditedText": "That is not correct.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is not correct.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C706356", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 63.0, "ContributionID": 706356, "EditedText": "No, it is correct. If you look at the notes of the meeting—your advisers were there—you will find the suggestion that legislation would not be in place until at least October. I am sure that Ms Cunningham will confirm that that was the clear impression you gave on those discussions. All we heard about were the difficulties with the legislation; we did not hear about any decisive intent on your part to act at that time. I am quite happy, if you are, for the notes of that meeting to be published in order to—", "EditedTextHTML": "No, it is correct. If you look at the notes of the meeting—your advisers were there—you will find the suggestion that legislation would not be in place until at least October. I am sure that Ms Cunningham will confirm that that was the clear impression you gave on those discussions. All we heard about were the difficulties with the legislation; we did not hear about any decisive intent on your part to act at that time. I am quite happy, if you are, for the notes of that meeting to be published in order to—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2033E106P139C706359", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gray, Iain", "ID": 2033, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Pentlands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Iain Gray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Community Care (Iain Gray): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 69.0, "ContributionID": 706359, "EditedText": "Will Mr McLetchie give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr McLetchie give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1990E181P340C706365", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robson, Euan", "ID": 1990, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Roxburgh and Berwickshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Euan Robson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Euan Robson (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 82.0, "ContributionID": 706365, "EditedText": "I welcome the introduction of the bill. Mr Ruddle's release exposed a loophole in the law and it is important that that loophole be closed. It is also important to emphasise that, within a month of the loophole being exposed, Parliament is to consider emergency legislation, which has been drafted quickly despite having to take into account the complexities of the European convention on human rights. I suggest to Parliament that we should not underestimate those complexities. In contrast to David McLetchie, I believe that the Executive has demonstrated its commitment to public safety. Otherwise, we would not be here this morning. With your permission, Sir David, I would like to put on record the sympathy of the Parliament to the relatives of Mr Ruddle's victim. It must be difficult for them to have to live with this nightmare, which they will have seen repeated several times in the press. As we heard in the Justice and Home Affairs Committee, the bill will be an interim measure, pending the reviews that are in train. The Executive has confirmed that there will be further legislation if necessary, after Lord MacLean and the Mental Welfare Commission for Scotland have considered aspects of the Ruddle case. Those aspects were immediately referred to them on 3 August. It is difficult for laymen to tread in this complex legal area; perhaps it difficult also for recently retired solicitors. However, the problems with the legislation that was introduced in the second term of Mrs Thatcher's Government have been apparent for some time. During the meeting of the Scottish Grand Committee on 16 July 1996, while discussing this very problem, Lord James Douglas-Hamilton—who is with us today, of course—said: \"We need to be absolutely certain that existing criteria give sufficient prominence to the protection of the public. To that end, I have instructed an examination of the criteria with a view to taking whatever measures are necessary.\"— Official Report, House of Commons, Scottish Grand Committee, 16 July 1996; c 3. I entirely agree that it was important that that review should take place, but after nine months nothing had happened, and no loophole such as has been exposed by Mr Ruddle's case came to light. It is perfectly clear that there have been difficulties with the legislation for a while and that this interim measure is important. However, the general review that will take place after the MacLean committee has reported is equally significant. The Government was right to rely upon successive successful appeals in the Reid case. It was important that it did so. What else should it have done? As soon as the Reid case was finished, the MacLean committee was set up within about six weeks, over the Christmas period.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the introduction of the bill. Mr Ruddle's release exposed a loophole in the law and it is important that that loophole be closed. It is also important to emphasise that, within a month of the loophole being exposed, Parliament is to consider emergency legislation, which has been drafted quickly despite having to take into account the complexities of the European convention on human rights. I suggest to Parliament that we should not underestimate those complexities.

In contrast to David McLetchie, I believe that the Executive has demonstrated its commitment to public safety. Otherwise, we would not be here this morning. With your permission, Sir David, I would like to put on record the sympathy of the Parliament to the relatives of Mr Ruddle's victim. It must be difficult for them to have to live with this nightmare, which they will have seen repeated several times in the press.

As we heard in the Justice and Home Affairs Committee, the bill will be an interim measure, pending the reviews that are in train. The Executive has confirmed that there will be further legislation if necessary, after Lord MacLean and the Mental Welfare Commission for Scotland have considered aspects of the Ruddle case. Those aspects were immediately referred to them on 3 August.

It is difficult for laymen to tread in this complex legal area; perhaps it difficult also for recently retired solicitors. However, the problems with the legislation that was introduced in the second term of Mrs Thatcher's Government have been apparent for some time. During the meeting of the Scottish Grand Committee on 16 July 1996, while discussing this very problem, Lord James Douglas-Hamilton—who is with us today, of course—said:

\"We need to be absolutely certain that existing criteria give sufficient prominence to the protection of the public. To that end, I have instructed an examination of the criteria with a view to taking whatever measures are necessary.\"— [Official Report, House of Commons, Scottish Grand Committee, 16 July 1996; c 3.]

I entirely agree that it was important that that review should take place, but after nine months nothing had happened, and no loophole such as has been exposed by Mr Ruddle's case came to light. It is perfectly clear that there have been difficulties with the legislation for a while and that this interim measure is important. However, the general review that will take place after the MacLean committee has reported is equally significant.

The Government was right to rely upon successive successful appeals in the Reid case. It was important that it did so. What else should it have done? As soon as the Reid case was finished, the MacLean committee was set up within about six weeks, over the Christmas period.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2112E192P495C706366", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacAskill, Kenny", "ID": 2112, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenny MacAskill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Kenny MacAskill (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 84.0, "ContributionID": 706366, "EditedText": "Mr Reid's case was first dealt with in the Scottish sheriff courts in around 1994. It then went through appeals before finally reaching the House of Lords in 1998. The MacLean committee was instructed shortly afterwards. Therefore, there were four years during which the case was considered. It took four years for the previous Administration, and now this Administration, to get their act together and instruct Lord MacLean.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Reid's case was first dealt with in the Scottish sheriff courts in around 1994. It then went through appeals before finally reaching the House of Lords in 1998. The MacLean committee was instructed shortly afterwards. Therefore, there were four years during which the case was considered. It took four years for the previous Administration, and now this Administration, to get their act together and instruct Lord MacLean.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C706368", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 88.0, "ContributionID": 706368, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1990E181P340C706371", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robson, Euan", "ID": 1990, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Roxburgh and Berwickshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Euan Robson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Euan Robson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 94.0, "ContributionID": 706371, "EditedText": "I take Mr McLetchie's point. That is a clear legal issue which should be addressed; presumably it has been addressed in relation to the European convention on human rights. It is important that the interim legislation stands the test to which it will be subjected in further appeals. How would Mr McLetchie have reacted had the Minister for Justice ignored the law officers' advice? I suggest that he would have been one of the first to criticise the minister for doing so. Mr Wallace has suffered some unfair and hostile criticism recently and I commend him for his courage and fortitude during this difficult period. I also commend him for bringing the legislation before the Parliament today—we should proceed with the bill.", "EditedTextHTML": "I take Mr McLetchie's point. That is a clear legal issue which should be addressed; presumably it has been addressed in relation to the European convention on human rights. It is important that the interim legislation stands the test to which it will be subjected in further appeals.

How would Mr McLetchie have reacted had the Minister for Justice ignored the law officers' advice? I suggest that he would have been one of the first to criticise the minister for doing so. Mr Wallace has suffered some unfair and hostile criticism recently and I commend him for his courage and fortitude during this difficult period. I also commend him for bringing the legislation before the Parliament today—we should proceed

with the bill.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2228E151P202C706377", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McCabe, Tom", "ID": 2228, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Tom McCabe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Parliament (Mr Tom McCabe): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 108.0, "ContributionID": 706377, "EditedText": "I do not know whether Mr Canavan is purposely forgetful, but he will be aware that the Parliament's provisions for emergency legislation allow for such legislation to be taken in one day. The business motion that the Parliament agreed to yesterday spread consideration of the legislation over two weeks, to allow maximum scrutiny of the bill while getting the legislation on the statute book and answering public safety considerations as soon as possible.", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not know whether Mr Canavan is purposely forgetful, but he will be aware that the Parliament's provisions for emergency legislation allow for such legislation to be taken in one day. The business motion that the Parliament agreed to yesterday spread consideration of the legislation over two weeks, to allow maximum scrutiny of the bill while getting the legislation on the statute book and answering public safety considerations as soon as possible.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1985E207P501C706372", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hamilton, Mr Duncan", "ID": 1985, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Duncan Hamilton (Highlands and Islands) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 97.0, "ContributionID": 706372, "EditedText": "I also feel very strongly for Mr Wallace, because he has taken a terrible pounding over this issue. Perhaps there was a subclause in the partnership agreement that said, \"In the event of a political hospital pass, a Liberal Democrat minister will take the lead on this and other issues.\" The entire Executive has to take some responsibility for an issue that involves the justice department and the health department. Although I support the need for emergency legislation, I will focus on two key areas that might have stopped us getting into this mess; I would appreciate it if the minister would address the position in which we find ourselves when he sums up. My first point concerns the treatability test. As Mr Wallace rightly pointed out, the sheriff was put in the position of handing down an absolute discharge, because Mr Ruddle was not receiving the appropriate treatment to alleviate his condition. However, why was not Mr Ruddle receiving such help? Why was that treatment not available? We need to ask questions about the provision of mental health care in our establishments, and those answers must come, not just from Mr Wallace, but from the health department, so that we find out exactly what went wrong in this case. It is not that the treatment does not exist; it simply did not exist in this instance and we have to ask why. At the Justice and Home Affairs Committee, Mr Wallace said that the matter would be referred to the Mental Welfare Commission for investigation. However, the question is not that difficult: the treatment either did or did not exist. We do not need another inquiry punted into the long grass before we can find out whether adequate provision was made. There is a crucial difference between a condition that is not treatable and the unavailability of treatment—that point will be raised time and again in the debate. We also need to find out why the sheriff could not have considered the wider context. Is it possible to have a legal system that says that treatment is available and which tries to find a way of getting it, instead of a system that takes the narrow definition which means that, in the specific case in Carstairs, Mr Ruddle goes free because treatment is not available? That suggests a lack of clear thinking and we need to discover how to prevent such a situation in future. I look forward to that point being addressed in the summing-up. The rights of the patient also have to be taken into consideration. To secure the rights of the patient, there has to be some emphasis on basic provision, instead of simply locking up the patient and throwing away the key. My second point moves the focus away from the unfortunate Mr Wallace to the rest of the Executive and particularly to the Secretary of State for Scotland, as he was, and the First Minister, as he now is, as the time frame takes in several Administrations. We need to find out the position of the responsible medical officer. The responsible medical officer is obliged to provide regular reports to the First Minister—the then secretary of state— on the treatment that is received by patients in such a position. The secretary of state is also obliged to make sure that the patient is receiving adequate care on the recommendation of the responsible medical officer. Were such regular medical reports received; and, if so, were they read and understood? Did those reports recommend additional treatment and highlight the lack of provision of adequate mental health care? If so, we are faced with two options. Either the Executive or the then Government decided that it would not do anything about the situation, which makes the entire Government culpable; or there was a problem with the reporting mechanism from the RMO upwards. We must resolve such a problem, because the RMO's reports provide the major check in the system to ensure the provision of proper medical care. If that system breaks down, we will have serious problems.", "EditedTextHTML": "I also feel very strongly for Mr Wallace, because he has taken a terrible pounding over this issue. Perhaps there was a subclause in the partnership agreement that said, \"In the event of a political hospital pass, a Liberal Democrat minister will take the lead on this and other issues.\" The entire Executive has to take some responsibility for an issue that involves the justice department and the health department. Although I support the need for emergency legislation, I will focus on two key areas that might have stopped us getting into this mess; I would appreciate it if the minister would address the position in which we find ourselves when he sums up.

My first point concerns the treatability test. As Mr Wallace rightly pointed out, the sheriff was put in the position of handing down an absolute discharge, because Mr Ruddle was not receiving the appropriate treatment to alleviate his condition. However, why was not Mr Ruddle receiving such help? Why was that treatment not available? We need to ask questions about the provision of mental health care in our establishments, and those answers must come, not just from Mr Wallace, but from the health department, so that we find out exactly what went wrong in this case. It is not that the treatment does not exist; it simply did not exist in this instance and we have to ask why.

At the Justice and Home Affairs Committee, Mr Wallace said that the matter would be referred to the Mental Welfare Commission for investigation. However, the question is not that difficult: the treatment either did or did not exist. We do not need another inquiry punted into the long grass before we can find out whether adequate provision was made. There is a crucial difference between a condition that is not treatable and the unavailability of treatment—that point will be raised time and again in the debate.

We also need to find out why the sheriff could not have considered the wider context. Is it possible to have a legal system that says that treatment is available and which tries to find a way of getting it, instead of a system that takes the narrow definition which means that, in the specific case in Carstairs, Mr Ruddle goes free because treatment is not available? That suggests a lack of clear thinking and we need to discover how to prevent such a situation in future. I look forward to that point being addressed in the summing-up.

The rights of the patient also have to be taken into consideration. To secure the rights of the patient, there has to be some emphasis on basic provision, instead of simply locking up the patient and throwing away the key.

My second point moves the focus away from the unfortunate Mr Wallace to the rest of the Executive and particularly to the Secretary of State for Scotland, as he was, and the First Minister, as he now is, as the time frame takes in several Administrations. We need to find out the position of the responsible medical officer. The responsible medical officer is obliged to provide regular reports to the First Minister—the then secretary of state— on the treatment that is received by patients in such a position. The secretary of state is also obliged to make sure that the patient is receiving adequate care on the recommendation of the responsible medical officer.

Were such regular medical reports received; and, if so, were they read and understood? Did those reports recommend additional treatment and highlight the lack of provision of adequate mental health care? If so, we are faced with two options. Either the Executive or the then Government decided that it would not do anything about the situation, which makes the entire Government culpable; or there was a problem with the reporting mechanism from the RMO upwards. We must resolve such a problem, because the RMO's reports provide the major check in the system to ensure the provision of proper medical care. If that system breaks down, we will have serious problems.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2033E106P139C706373", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gray, Iain", "ID": 2033, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Pentlands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Iain Gray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Iain Gray rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 99.0, "ContributionID": 706373, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1821E295P538C706379", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Mrs Margaret", "ID": 1821, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Moray" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Margaret Ewing (Moray) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 113.0, "ContributionID": 706379, "EditedText": "I am one of the Ewings who is not qualified in the legal profession; I suspect that many members are in a similar position. Some of the arguments in the course of this debate address legal niceties. I speak as a layperson who is concerned about the legislation. I hope that we can address the issues in the way that many constituents would wish. Throughout my parliamentary life, my experience of emergency legislation has been that it is always an extremely difficult source of legislation. We often repent at leisure after we rush through legislation. I recall many bills—I do not want to list them—which required hundreds of amendments at a later stage to ensure that the legislation was effective. A little word of caution to all of us is to ensure, when we consider emergency legislation and the provisions to introduce such legislation, that we make our best efforts to prevent the legislation coming back to haunt us. Mr Jim Wallace indicated agreement.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am one of the Ewings who is not qualified in the legal profession; I suspect that many members are in a similar position. Some of the arguments in the course of this debate address legal niceties. I speak as a layperson who is concerned about the legislation. I hope that we can address the issues in the way that many constituents would wish.

Throughout my parliamentary life, my experience of emergency legislation has been that it is always an extremely difficult source of legislation. We often repent at leisure after we rush through legislation. I recall many bills—I do not want to list them—which required hundreds of amendments at a later stage to ensure that the legislation was effective. A little word of caution to all of us is to ensure, when we consider emergency legislation and the provisions to introduce such legislation, that we make our best efforts to prevent the legislation coming back to haunt us.

Mr Jim Wallace indicated agreement.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1821E295P538C706380", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Mrs Margaret", "ID": 1821, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Moray" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 115.0, "ContributionID": 706380, "EditedText": "I see the minister nodding in agreement. I sincerely hope that in rushing through this legislation we are not creating another loophole, which we will have to close at some future stage. It is interesting that I follow Dennis Canavan, with whom I worked as a teacher for many years. He was the boss of the mathematics department, to which I was attached because of my interest in people with special needs. I was surprised that Dennis did not ask the question that I am about to put to the minister. How many drafts of the bill were written before the final version? It is important that we know that.", "EditedTextHTML": "I see the minister nodding in agreement. I sincerely hope that in rushing through this legislation we are not creating another loophole, which we will have to close at some future stage.

It is interesting that I follow Dennis Canavan, with whom I worked as a teacher for many years. He was the boss of the mathematics department, to which I was attached because of my interest in people with special needs. I was surprised that Dennis did not ask the question that I am about to put to the minister. How many drafts of the bill were written before the final version? It is important that we know that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706383", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 121.0, "ContributionID": 706383, "EditedText": "Thank you. There are problems with the electronic equipment this morning; the names of some members who wish to speak have not registered on my screen. Can I see a show of hands by those who thought that they had registered their wish to speak? That is what I suspected. I am sorry, but none of you have been registered. There is a moral here. I was told that during the recess members who escorted children through the building allowed them to play with the equipment, which caused great concern. The equipment is temperamental and I am becoming temperamental trying to operate it. I am sorry that many members who should have been called have not been because their names were not on my screen. I will now do my best to rectify that.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you. There are problems with the electronic equipment this morning; the names of some members who wish to speak have not registered on my screen. Can I see a show of hands by those who thought that they had registered their wish to speak?

That is what I suspected. I am sorry, but none of you have been registered. There is a moral here. I was told that during the recess members who escorted children through the building allowed them to play with the equipment, which caused great concern. The equipment is temperamental and I am becoming temperamental trying to operate it. I am sorry that many members who should have been called have not been because their names were not on my screen. I will now do my best to rectify that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706385", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 125.0, "ContributionID": 706385, "EditedText": "Yes, Mr Henry. Can we have Mr Henry's microphone on?", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes, Mr Henry. Can we have Mr Henry's microphone on?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2029E47P167C706386", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Henry, Hugh", "ID": 2029, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Hugh Henry", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Hugh Henry: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 127.0, "ContributionID": 706386, "EditedText": "Is it that only machines in a certain part of the chamber are not working? There has been an imbalance of party in the speakers who were called this morning and yesterday.", "EditedTextHTML": "Is it that only machines in a certain part of the chamber are not working? There has been an imbalance of party in the speakers who were called this morning and yesterday.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1803E78P291C706390", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gillon, Karen", "ID": 1803, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Clydesdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Karen Gillon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Karen Gillon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 136.0, "ContributionID": 706390, "EditedText": "I will not take any interventions. We have waited a long time to speak in this debate and I have only a short time. Those members of staff are treating the patients in Carstairs. I asked them specific questions and they gave me the same information that ministers gave me. I welcome that. I believe that my information, which I was able to pass on to my constituents, was correct. We need to progress this debate and to stop being reactionary and trying to score political points. We must act in the best interests of the Scottish people and of the patients at Carstairs and introduce a new law that meets those requirements.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will not take any interventions. We have waited a long time to speak in this debate and I have only a short time.

Those members of staff are treating the patients in Carstairs. I asked them specific questions and they gave me the same information that ministers gave me. I welcome that. I believe that my information, which I was able to pass on to my constituents, was correct. We need to progress this debate and to stop being reactionary and trying to score political points. We must act in the best interests of the Scottish people and of the patients at Carstairs and introduce a new law that meets those requirements.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706401", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Lord Advocate", "SpeakerName": "Andrew Hardie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Lord Advocate: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 163.0, "ContributionID": 706401, "EditedText": "I will not give way at the moment. I have a limited time—let me see how I get on. There are important principles at stake. On the one hand there is the public's wish for protection; on the other there are the rights to help and treatment of people who are ill, and their aspirations to return to the community. Those rights and the interests of the different parts of society have been referred to by members, including Cathy Jamieson and Karen Gillon. Mental illness is a common condition that affects a large minority of Scots, who suffer its afflictions without, in most cases, being a danger to anyone else. I had hoped that, today, we would avoid the frenzy of recent weeks and concentrate on the small group of detained patients for whom we have a collective responsibility to act. Unfortunately, having heard some speeches— particularly that of Roseanna Cunningham—it is clear that that has not proved to be the case.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will not give way at the moment. I have a limited time—let me see how I get on. There are important principles at stake. On the one hand there is the public's wish for protection; on the other there are the rights to help and treatment of people who are ill, and their aspirations to return to the community. Those rights and the interests of the different parts of society have been referred to by members, including Cathy Jamieson and Karen Gillon.

Mental illness is a common condition that affects a large minority of Scots, who suffer its afflictions without, in most cases, being a danger to anyone else. I had hoped that, today, we would avoid the frenzy of recent weeks and concentrate on the small group of detained patients for whom we have a collective responsibility to act. Unfortunately, having heard some speeches— particularly that of Roseanna Cunningham—it is clear that that has not proved to be the case.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1973E119P326C706394", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gorrie, Donald", "ID": 1973, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Donald Gorrie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Donald Gorrie (Central Scotland) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 146.0, "ContributionID": 706394, "EditedText": "I speak as a fully paid-up member of the critics' trade union, but some recent remarks in the press have brought criticism into bad repute. There has been an extraordinary amount of hype and personalisation of the argument. That is bad in two ways: if the argument is hyped up, serious criticism on other issues is devalued and the chance of a serious examination of the subject is removed. The same applies to personalisation. If we go in for attacks on a minister, we reduce the amount of serious discussion of the issue. Duncan Hamilton made some good points on that issue. There are important points, such as those that the previous two speakers made, that need careful consideration, but extraordinary criticisms do not help. Roseanna Cunningham has expounded a new doctrine that would terrify any football manager. Her doctrine is that if one is a team's recently appointed football manager, one is responsible for all the defeats suffered by that team before one took office. That is ludicrous. Jim Wallace is being accused of accepting legal advice and trying to uphold the rule of law. The arguments against him are that he should have devised various sneaky tactics to get round the rule of law. Most of us would not want to live in a society that allowed such behaviour. The law is sometimes inconvenient or stupid and sometimes bad decisions are made, but we have to put that right in the correct way. That is what Jim Wallace is trying to do. I appeal to people not to go over the top and personalise their criticisms, because that harms us all in the long run and reduces our chances of getting things right. Those who live by the sword shall die by the sword; those who live by hype shall die by derision.", "EditedTextHTML": "I speak as a fully paid-up member of the critics' trade union, but some recent remarks in the press have brought criticism into bad repute. There has been an extraordinary amount of hype and personalisation of the argument. That is bad in two ways: if the argument is hyped up, serious criticism on other issues is devalued and the chance of a serious examination of the subject is removed. The same applies to personalisation. If we go in for attacks on a minister, we reduce the amount of serious discussion of the issue. Duncan Hamilton made some good points on that issue.

There are important points, such as those that the previous two speakers made, that need careful consideration, but extraordinary criticisms do not help. Roseanna Cunningham has expounded a new doctrine that would terrify any football manager. Her doctrine is that if one is a team's recently appointed football manager, one is responsible for all the defeats suffered by that team before one took office. That is ludicrous.

Jim Wallace is being accused of accepting legal advice and trying to uphold the rule of law. The arguments against him are that he should have

devised various sneaky tactics to get round the rule of law. Most of us would not want to live in a society that allowed such behaviour. The law is sometimes inconvenient or stupid and sometimes bad decisions are made, but we have to put that right in the correct way. That is what Jim Wallace is trying to do.

I appeal to people not to go over the top and personalise their criticisms, because that harms us all in the long run and reduces our chances of getting things right. Those who live by the sword shall die by the sword; those who live by hype shall die by derision.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C706395", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Annabel Goldie (West of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 149.0, "ContributionID": 706395, "EditedText": "If this unhappy episode has demonstrated anything, it is that whether the Executive likes it or not, this has been the political issue of the Parliament since its inception. That may not be palatable to the Executive, but it is the reality, not only to the Opposition parties but to the public. In response to Mr Gorrie, I must say that during the whole debate, from early August until now, I did not detect any attempt to personalise attacks. All that we—and the Scottish nationalist party— were saying was that it is not for us, or for ministers or advisers, to become judge and jury. If we wish to test a law, we must ask a court to undertake that task. That dramatically illustrates the relevance and significance of the role of Opposition. It is not for the Opposition to go around kowtowing, apologising and promising not to be unpleasant or nasty. It is for the Opposition rightly to consider any given situation, particularly one of the gravity of the Ruddle case, and to determine whether the Executive has fully, responsibly and openly discharged every obligation upon it and explored every avenue available to it. In that respect, there is one question to which I, personally, have not received an answer. I listened with interest to Mr Wallace's remarks. In his preliminary observations, he said that there was \"no appeal, no interim interdict\". Did Mr Wallace receive advice that, within a judicial review application, it is competent to include a conclusion for interim suspension of a sheriff's interlocutor? We in the Conservative party have made it clear that we support in principle this welcome attempt to plug the loophole, and we certainly support the motion that it should be treated as emergency legislation. We shall co-operate in so far as we can in the enactment of this bill. To be helpful to Mr Wallace, there are one or two areas where we genuinely offer contributions. I notice that the bill proposes the adoption of the framework of the 1984 act, which means a continuance of the application to the sheriff court. However, we ask Lord Hardie whether it is possible to consider an application to the minister. We realise that that may fall foul of the European convention on human rights, but we suggest that, given the immediacy of a grave situation such as that created by the Ruddle case, control might be more immediately achieved if there were the possibility of the procedure consisting of a straight application to the minister, with the ultimate safeguard of appeal to the court in the event of the applicant being dissatisfied. Quite rightly, reference has been made to the bill's attempts to include personality disorder as part of the definition. That is a further issue that requires careful consideration. It is not clear from the bill whether the burden of proof proceeds on the balance of probability or on proving a case beyond reasonable doubt. That needs to be clarified and is a fundamental issue that must be determined. The Conservative party supports the emergency legislation. We deeply regret that we have to consider it in such a rush. None the less, we shall do our best to assist in facilitating its enactment.", "EditedTextHTML": "If this unhappy episode has demonstrated anything, it is that whether the Executive likes it or not, this has been the political issue of the Parliament since its inception. That may not be palatable to the Executive, but it is the reality, not only to the Opposition parties but to the public.

In response to Mr Gorrie, I must say that during the whole debate, from early August until now, I did not detect any attempt to personalise attacks. All that we—and the Scottish nationalist party— were saying was that it is not for us, or for ministers or advisers, to become judge and jury. If we wish to test a law, we must ask a court to undertake that task. That dramatically illustrates the relevance and significance of the role of Opposition. It is not for the Opposition to go around kowtowing, apologising and promising not to be unpleasant or nasty. It is for the Opposition rightly to consider any given situation, particularly one of the gravity of the Ruddle case, and to determine whether the Executive has fully, responsibly and openly discharged every obligation upon it and explored every avenue available to it.

In that respect, there is one question to which I, personally, have not received an answer. I listened with interest to Mr Wallace's remarks. In his preliminary observations, he said that there was \"no appeal, no interim interdict\". Did Mr Wallace receive advice that, within a judicial review application, it is competent to include a conclusion for interim suspension of a sheriff's interlocutor?

We in the Conservative party have made it clear that we support in principle this welcome attempt to plug the loophole, and we certainly support the motion that it should be treated as emergency legislation. We shall co-operate in so far as we can in the enactment of this bill.

To be helpful to Mr Wallace, there are one or two areas where we genuinely offer contributions. I notice that the bill proposes the adoption of the framework of the 1984 act, which means a continuance of the application to the sheriff court. However, we ask Lord Hardie whether it is possible to consider an application to the minister. We realise that that may fall foul of the European convention on human rights, but we suggest that, given the immediacy of a grave situation such as that created by the Ruddle case, control might be more immediately achieved if there were the possibility of the procedure consisting of a straight application to the minister, with the ultimate safeguard of appeal to the court in the event of the applicant being dissatisfied.

Quite rightly, reference has been made to the bill's attempts to include personality disorder as part of the definition. That is a further issue that requires careful consideration.

It is not clear from the bill whether the burden of proof proceeds on the balance of probability or on proving a case beyond reasonable doubt. That needs to be clarified and is a fundamental issue that must be determined.

The Conservative party supports the emergency legislation. We deeply regret that we have to consider it in such a rush. None the less, we shall do our best to assist in facilitating its enactment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1990E181P340C706397", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robson, Euan", "ID": 1990, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Roxburgh and Berwickshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Euan Robson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Euan Robson rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 154.0, "ContributionID": 706397, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2112E192P495C706398", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacAskill, Kenny", "ID": 2112, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenny MacAskill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr MacAskill: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 156.0, "ContributionID": 706398, "EditedText": "I will not take any interventions. This is a winding-up speech, and Mr Robson will have to remain wound up, if that is how he is feeling. How did we get into this mess? Let us run through some of the facts. As Lord Hardie will wind up for the Executive, I produce what I will call Opposition production No 1—the sheriff's decision from Lanark. The report clarifies that Mr Ruddle was of above-average intelligence and had no previous history of mental illness. I think that the Tories should take some cognisance of that. In 1991 and in 1992, Mr Ruddle was allowed to be sent to the state hospital, as opposed to being prosecuted, and no stops were pulled out. That was despite the fact that, at one stage while he was on remand in Barlinnie awaiting possible trial and consideration, he was seen by a psychiatrist and presumed to have no mental illness. Indeed, all the medical evidence is that he did not have a history of mental illness—he had a history of psychopathic disorder. As well as Conservative members saying that Labour should have tried harder in 1998 and 1999, their law officers—Mackay, Cullen or whoever their predecessors were—should have tried harder in 1991 and 1992. Perhaps it is coincidental that this evil man's parents were both psychiatric nurses. Did that not flag up a problem for the Conservative Administration? Should not the Conservatives' medical or legal teams have monitored that? I will continue to run through what went on. The fact is that the sheriff made it clear that this man should have been monitored, yet he was not. He seems to have made an improvement while in Carstairs. He makes such an improvement that he gets himself a girlfriend and has a party during his incarceration. The psychiatrists examine him and it becomes clear that he fits the criteria for release. Lord Hardie, I refer you to paragraph 7.16 page 10 of the sheriff's judgment. \"On 9 April 1998, the applicant was examined,\"and—narrates the people—\"the applicant was suffering from personality disorder\".The judgment goes on to describe what that personality disorder was. It then states that the \"medical treatment in hospital was not likely to alleviate or prevent a deterioration of his condition\". A recommendation was made to discharge Ruddle. The final sentence reads: \"The applicant\"—Mr Ruddle, on 9 April 1998—\"was told of the Committee's view that he should be discharged.\" In April 1998, Ruddle knew that the authorities were saying that he should get out. The judgment also makes it clear that the respondent was also told of the committee's view. The respondent is your department, Lord Hardie. You were told that Ruddle was being recommended for release. Ruddle knew in April 1998 that the psychiatric view was that he was to be released, and you did nothing. You did not call for the Mental Welfare Commission for Scotland— Mr Robson is not here to comment on that. The MacLean committee was not initiated in April or May 1998. You sat on your hands and did very little. Lo and behold—what happens? When does the situation move on? The case did not start in August 1999, as Ruddle's appeal was lodged in the Lanark sheriff court in February 1999. What action was taken between April 1998 and February 1999? You did nothing. Lord Hardie, from February 1999 onwards, you seem to have dealt with the situation through your legal team and to have done nothing. It was clear that Mr Ruddle met the criteria for discharge, and that is why it was granted. You gave no consideration to an attempt to alleviate the problem by offering a conditional discharge, which, I understand, would have been acceptable to Mr Ruddle and his advisers. We could, at least, have seen some restrictions placed on him. What happened? In August of this year, he was released at two minutes past 10, and you did not even have a bed available for him. He was able to go walkabout. This situation is categorised and classified by total mismanagement, starting in 1991 and 1992, in terms of how Ruddle was prosecuted and dealt with at that time, continuing through the Labour Administration in post-election 1997, to April 1998. Lord Hardie, you were aware that he was being recommended for discharge and your predecessors did nothing. In February of this year, you were notified that Ruddle was going for his appeal and that he would appear to meet the criteria, as the psychiatrists had told you in April 1998—and you did nothing. This has been a shameful situation. Lord Hardie, if you will not take the blame and resign yourself, you should sack your legal team because they have made a mess of it.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will not take any interventions. This is a winding-up speech, and Mr Robson will have to remain wound up, if that is how he is feeling.

How did we get into this mess? Let us run through some of the facts. As Lord Hardie will wind up for the Executive, I produce what I will call Opposition production No 1—the sheriff's decision from Lanark. The report clarifies that Mr Ruddle was of above-average intelligence and had no previous history of mental illness. I think that the Tories should take some cognisance of that.

In 1991 and in 1992, Mr Ruddle was allowed to be sent to the state hospital, as opposed to being prosecuted, and no stops were pulled out. That was despite the fact that, at one stage while he was on remand in Barlinnie awaiting possible trial and consideration, he was seen by a psychiatrist and presumed to have no mental illness. Indeed, all the medical evidence is that he did not have a history of mental illness—he had a history of psychopathic disorder.

As well as Conservative members saying that Labour should have tried harder in 1998 and 1999, their law officers—Mackay, Cullen or whoever their predecessors were—should have tried harder in 1991 and 1992. Perhaps it is coincidental that this evil man's parents were both psychiatric nurses. Did that not flag up a problem for the Conservative Administration? Should not the Conservatives' medical or legal teams have monitored that?

I will continue to run through what went on. The fact is that the sheriff made it clear that this man should have been monitored, yet he was not. He seems to have made an improvement while in Carstairs. He makes such an improvement that he gets himself a girlfriend and has a party during his incarceration. The psychiatrists examine him and it becomes clear that he fits the criteria for release.

Lord Hardie, I refer you to paragraph 7.16 page 10 of the sheriff's judgment.

\"On 9 April 1998, the applicant was examined,\"

and—narrates the people—

\"the applicant was suffering from personality disorder\".

The judgment goes on to describe what that personality disorder was. It then states that the

\"medical treatment in hospital was not likely to alleviate or prevent a deterioration of his condition\".

A recommendation was made to discharge Ruddle. The final sentence reads:

\"The applicant\"—

Mr Ruddle, on 9 April 1998—

\"was told of the Committee's view that he should be discharged.\"

In April 1998, Ruddle knew that the authorities were saying that he should get out.

The judgment also makes it clear that the respondent was also told of the committee's view.

The respondent is your department, Lord Hardie. You were told that Ruddle was being recommended for release. Ruddle knew in April 1998 that the psychiatric view was that he was to be released, and you did nothing. You did not call for the Mental Welfare Commission for Scotland— Mr Robson is not here to comment on that. The MacLean committee was not initiated in April or May 1998. You sat on your hands and did very little. Lo and behold—what happens? When does the situation move on? The case did not start in August 1999, as Ruddle's appeal was lodged in the Lanark sheriff court in February 1999. What action was taken between April 1998 and February 1999? You did nothing.

Lord Hardie, from February 1999 onwards, you seem to have dealt with the situation through your legal team and to have done nothing. It was clear that Mr Ruddle met the criteria for discharge, and that is why it was granted. You gave no consideration to an attempt to alleviate the problem by offering a conditional discharge, which, I understand, would have been acceptable to Mr Ruddle and his advisers. We could, at least, have seen some restrictions placed on him. What happened? In August of this year, he was released at two minutes past 10, and you did not even have a bed available for him. He was able to go walkabout.

This situation is categorised and classified by total mismanagement, starting in 1991 and 1992, in terms of how Ruddle was prosecuted and dealt with at that time, continuing through the Labour Administration in post-election 1997, to April 1998. Lord Hardie, you were aware that he was being recommended for discharge and your predecessors did nothing. In February of this year, you were notified that Ruddle was going for his appeal and that he would appear to meet the criteria, as the psychiatrists had told you in April 1998—and you did nothing.

This has been a shameful situation. Lord Hardie, if you will not take the blame and resign yourself, you should sack your legal team because they have made a mess of it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706399", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 158.0, "ContributionID": 706399, "EditedText": "I remind members that, in this chamber, \"you\" refers to the occupant of the chair. I am not responsible for any of the things of which I have just been accused.", "EditedTextHTML": "I remind members that, in this chamber, \"you\" refers to the occupant of the chair. I am not responsible for any of the things of which I have just been accused.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2056E57P84C706406", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James", "ID": 2056, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "James Douglas-Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Lord James Douglas-Hamilton (Lothians) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 173.0, "ContributionID": 706406, "EditedText": "Does the Lord Advocate accept that in the 10 years during which I was involved with home affairs there was not a single case in which a prisoner—a patient—was released in the same way that Ruddle has been?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the Lord Advocate accept that in the 10 years during which I was involved with home affairs there was not a single case in which a prisoner—a patient—was released in the same way that Ruddle has been?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706412", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Lord Advocate", "SpeakerName": "Andrew Hardie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Lord Advocate: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 185.0, "ContributionID": 706412, "EditedText": "Prior to Ruddle lodging his appeal, another similar appeal had been defended by the secretary of state and was ultimately refused. Ruddle was defended on the basis of evidence similar to other cases, which had been successfully defended. All of them involved conflicting evidence that the sheriff was required to assess. Until the decision was issued there was no basis for anyone to conclude that Ruddle would succeed. What about events after the Ruddle decision became known? It is not customary to reveal the extent of the law officers' involvement in particular legal questions, but we have made an exception in this case. I hope to address the point raised by Miss Goldie in this regard. An embargoed copy of the sheriffs judgment was issued to the Scottish Executive and to Mr Ruddle's solicitors on Friday 30 July, in accordance with normal practice. The solicitor to the Scottish Executive immediately sent a copy of the judgment to my legal secretary, and to the counsel who had conducted the appeal on behalf of the secretary of state—obviously to consider its implications. I take great exception to the suggestion that we did not realise that this was a public confidence issue. Of course we realised the significance of the decision. On the Friday, my legal secretary and a principal solicitor in the Scottish Executive experienced in such cases and I each independently considered the judgment— independently from each other. Our primary concern, and my instruction to the other solicitors involved, was to look at it from the point of view of the protection of the public. We sought any lawful means by which Mr Ruddle could be detained after 2 August. We each concluded that there was none and, moreover, we separately concluded that there was no basis on which we could successfully seek a judicial review. To answer the specific point, ministers were advised that it would be possible, in the context of a judicial review, to seek an interim order.", "EditedTextHTML": "Prior to Ruddle lodging his appeal, another similar appeal had been defended by the secretary of state and was ultimately refused. Ruddle was defended on the basis of evidence similar to other cases, which had been successfully defended. All of them involved conflicting evidence that the sheriff was required to assess. Until the decision was issued there was no basis for anyone to conclude that Ruddle would succeed.

What about events after the Ruddle decision became known? It is not customary to reveal the extent of the law officers' involvement in particular legal questions, but we have made an exception in this case. I hope to address the point raised by Miss Goldie in this regard. An embargoed copy of the sheriffs judgment was issued to the Scottish Executive and to Mr Ruddle's solicitors on Friday 30 July, in accordance with normal practice. The solicitor to the Scottish Executive immediately sent a copy of the judgment to my legal secretary, and to the counsel who had conducted the appeal on behalf of the secretary of state—obviously to consider its implications.

I take great exception to the suggestion that we did not realise that this was a public confidence issue. Of course we realised the significance of the decision. On the Friday, my legal secretary and a principal solicitor in the Scottish Executive experienced in such cases and I each independently considered the judgment— independently from each other. Our primary concern, and my instruction to the other solicitors involved, was to look at it from the point of view of the protection of the public. We sought any lawful means by which Mr Ruddle could be detained after 2 August. We each concluded that there was none and, moreover, we separately concluded that there was no basis on which we could successfully seek a judicial review. To answer the specific point, ministers were advised that it would be possible, in the context of a judicial review, to seek an interim order.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706418", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 197.0, "ContributionID": 706418, "EditedText": "No, the Lord Advocate is winding up.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, the Lord Advocate is winding up.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706420", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 201.0, "ContributionID": 706420, "EditedText": "I allowed the Lord Advocate a little injury time because of the points of order. The question is, that motion S1M-109, in the name of Mr Jim Wallace, be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "I allowed the Lord Advocate a little injury time because of the points of order.

The question is, that motion S1M-109, in the name of Mr Jim Wallace, be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706424", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 207.0, "ContributionID": 706424, "EditedText": "That the Parliament agrees that (a), all Stages of the Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill shall not be taken in one day, and (b) that the time available for the Stages and debates at each of the Stages should be as follows:", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament agrees that (a), all Stages of the Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill shall not be taken in one day, and (b) that the time available for the Stages and debates at each of the Stages should be as follows:

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706433", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 222.0, "ContributionID": 706433, "EditedText": "I will put it in tomorrow's business bulletin.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will put it in tomorrow's business bulletin.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C706434", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr David Davidson (North-East Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 224.0, "ContributionID": 706434, "EditedText": "On a point of order. Is it possible that we could get on with the vote on a show of hands?", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. Is it possible that we could get on with the vote on a show of hands?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706436", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 228.0, "ContributionID": 706436, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2154E194P299C706440", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stephen, Nicol", "ID": 2154, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Nicol Stephen", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning (Nicol Stephen): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 235.0, "ContributionID": 706440, "EditedText": "On a point of order. I wonder whether it is possible to record that only Dennis Canavan and Tommy Sheridan voted on the show of hands against the timetabling motion. That would show, on behalf of all other members, the manner in which the vote was taken.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. I wonder whether it is possible to record that only Dennis Canavan and Tommy Sheridan voted on the show of hands against the timetabling motion. That would show, on behalf of all other members, the manner in which the vote was taken.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C706444", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 246.0, "ContributionID": 706444, "EditedText": "My party will certainly support the bill and ease its way as far as possible. That does not mean that we have no reservations. I give notice that we will almost certainly lodge several amendments that could be taken, in Westminster terms, as probing amendments. However, our main aim will be to clarify and give backing to the bill as it goes through. Why do we need the bill? Our belief is that the law is about the protection of the public first and foremost. People must have confidence in the law. There have been far too many incidents where public confidence has been lost and where we could say that people have taken the law into their own hands: for example, the situation last week with an Aberdeen farmer, or in Kilmarnock a year or two ago when a man was jailed effectively for protecting his property, and very sadly a situation in Norfolk where someone has died. Such incidents all have an effect on the public perception of the law, and we as politicians are charged with dealing with that. We look at the technicalities of the law, but there is a role for lay opinion. Today, many people have spoken who are practised in administering the legal system. I make no apologies for not being as well equipped as Lord Hardie or others who have spoken on the detail of the law. The way of the great legal minds is to interpret, we are told, the intentions of the politicians. I feel that sometimes the findings in our courts are in contrast to that. There is no doubt that great anxieties were caused by the release of Mr Ruddle. Although I frequently criticise them, I would commend the media for that. They may not have got it all right and they may have been over the top in some of the criticism, but I think that, with the help of Opposition politicians, they built up a head of steam that added urgency to how ministers dealt with the situation. Despite all the comments about a fast track and it always having been the intention of the Executive to bring in something at the beginning of this parliamentary session, in an article of 26 August the Lord Advocate said that there was no guarantee that a fast track would be used. That backs up some of the points made by David McLetchie when he suggested that there was some confusion between 4 August and today on the approach to be taken. That was the issue that was addressed in earlier debate and I will try to focus—as you would expect me to, Mr Reid—on the bill.", "EditedTextHTML": "My party will certainly support the bill and ease its way as far as possible. That does not mean that we have no reservations. I give notice that we will almost certainly lodge several amendments that could be taken, in Westminster terms, as probing amendments. However, our main aim will be to clarify and give backing to the bill as it goes through.

Why do we need the bill? Our belief is that the law is about the protection of the public first and foremost. People must have confidence in the law. There have been far too many incidents where public confidence has been lost and where we could say that people have taken the law into their own hands: for example, the situation last week with an Aberdeen farmer, or in Kilmarnock a year or two ago when a man was jailed effectively for protecting his property, and very sadly a situation in Norfolk where someone has died.

Such incidents all have an effect on the public perception of the law, and we as politicians are charged with dealing with that. We look at the technicalities of the law, but there is a role for lay opinion. Today, many people have spoken who are practised in administering the legal system. I make no apologies for not being as well equipped as Lord Hardie or others who have spoken on the detail of the law. The way of the great legal minds is to interpret, we are told, the intentions of the politicians. I feel that sometimes the findings in our courts are in contrast to that.

There is no doubt that great anxieties were caused by the release of Mr Ruddle. Although I frequently criticise them, I would commend the media for that. They may not have got it all right and they may have been over the top in some of the criticism, but I think that, with the help of Opposition politicians, they built up a head of steam that added urgency to how ministers dealt with the situation.

Despite all the comments about a fast track and it always having been the intention of the Executive to bring in something at the beginning of this parliamentary session, in an article of 26 August the Lord Advocate said that there was no guarantee that a fast track would be used. That backs up some of the points made by David McLetchie when he suggested that there was some confusion between 4 August and today on the approach to be taken. That was the issue that was addressed in earlier debate and I will try to focus—as you would expect me to, Mr Reid—on the bill.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C706447", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 252.0, "ContributionID": 706447, "EditedText": "I would welcome some clarification. Is Mr Gallie seriously suggesting that this Parliament should pass legislation that is contrary to the ECHR? Is he also suggesting that a politician is better equipped than a judge to decide whether someone should be locked up?", "EditedTextHTML": "I would welcome some clarification. Is Mr Gallie seriously suggesting that this Parliament should pass legislation that is contrary to the ECHR? Is he also suggesting that a politician is better equipped than a judge to decide whether someone should be locked up?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C706448", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 254.0, "ContributionID": 706448, "EditedText": "I am not suggesting that we cut across the ECHR, because that would cut across the premise upon which this Parliament is built. I said that it would be totally dependent upon the link to the ECHR. In this case, I am suggesting that the courts have already made a judgment in determining where an individual should go, and to what extent a crime has been committed, and on that point there may be a case for a minister taking a decision on the ultimate in public protection. However, I repeat the point that this measure is one for debate. We will make the proposal, and it will be up to others in this Parliament to demonstrate the reasons why it would not be wise. I think I am receiving an indication from the Deputy Presiding Officer that my time is up. I will conclude by saying that we have some concerns with the retrospective aspects of this bill. We hope that the bill will stand firm and we will support it. I am sure that my friend Mrs Lyndsay McIntosh will give a Conservative view on the issue of personality disorder.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am not suggesting that we cut across the ECHR, because that would cut across the premise upon which this Parliament is built. I said that it would be totally dependent upon the link to the ECHR. In this case, I am suggesting that the courts have already made a judgment in determining where an individual should go, and to what extent a crime has been committed, and on that point there may be a case for a minister taking a decision on the ultimate in public protection. However, I repeat the point that this measure is one for debate. We will make the proposal, and it will be up to others in this Parliament to demonstrate the reasons why it would not be wise.

I think I am receiving an indication from the Deputy Presiding Officer that my time is up. I will conclude by saying that we have some concerns with the retrospective aspects of this bill. We hope that the bill will stand firm and we will support it. I am sure that my friend Mrs Lyndsay McIntosh will give a Conservative view on the issue of personality disorder.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2117E79P104C706449", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macdonald, Lewis", "ID": 2117, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lewis Macdonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Lewis Macdonald (Aberdeen Central) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 257.0, "ContributionID": 706449, "EditedText": "I welcome the Executive's prompt action in bringing this bill before Parliament and addressing the widespread concerns raised, not only by the Ruddle case, but by a number of other cases over the years. Like Margaret Ewing when she spoke in the earlier debate, I speak not as a lawyer, nor as a psychiatrist, although I recognise the importance of the perspectives that those professions will bring to bear when we discuss amendments next week. The legal and medical professions have a vital interest in this area of law, and we should draw on their expertise in getting the balance of this bill right. I am sure that we will do that, but in considering the principle of this bill, it is important to recognise that the issues of definition, which will exercise legal and medical minds, are not issues that always have as much meaning for the public. The professional perspective of criminal justice social workers, who work on a daily basis with offenders and potential offenders, including those at large in the community, should also be considered. I suspect that every social work department in the country has at least one or two individuals on their books whose behaviour is disruptive and chaotic, and who may have been in mental hospitals, but who are not currently diagnosed as mentally ill. Of those people who have some kind of anti-social personality disorder, only a small minority may be considered seriously violent or dangerous individuals, but when those few walking potential catastrophes are at large, they pose a constant threat to the lives, liberty and rights of others, and they demand constant resources and surveillance from social workers and the police. They divert resources from other needs. Two years ago in my constituency in Aberdeen, a young child was abducted and murdered by a man who had been through the criminal justice system. He had attacked children before, been to jail and been let out again, and had not been identified and detained as someone who would pose a threat to others in future, as many of my constituents believe he should have been. After the death of that child the community was desperate for reassurance on the safety of its children. It welcomed the measures that were introduced in the Crime and Punishment (Scotland) Act 1997 and in the Sex Offenders Act 1997 to restrict the liberty of sex offenders. I believe that it will also welcome the principle of this bill, in making public safety adequate grounds for continuing detention, in order to reduce the risk of other dangerous men being released into the community when they should not be.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the Executive's prompt action in bringing this bill before Parliament and addressing the widespread concerns raised, not only by the Ruddle case, but by a number of other cases over the years.

Like Margaret Ewing when she spoke in the earlier debate, I speak not as a lawyer, nor as a psychiatrist, although I recognise the importance of the perspectives that those professions will bring to bear when we discuss amendments next week. The legal and medical professions have a vital interest in this area of law, and we should draw on their expertise in getting the balance of this bill right. I am sure that we will do that, but in considering the principle of this bill, it is important to recognise that the issues of definition, which will exercise legal and medical minds, are not issues that always have as much meaning for the public.

The professional perspective of criminal justice social workers, who work on a daily basis with offenders and potential offenders, including those at large in the community, should also be considered. I suspect that every social work department in the country has at least one or two

individuals on their books whose behaviour is disruptive and chaotic, and who may have been in mental hospitals, but who are not currently diagnosed as mentally ill. Of those people who have some kind of anti-social personality disorder, only a small minority may be considered seriously violent or dangerous individuals, but when those few walking potential catastrophes are at large, they pose a constant threat to the lives, liberty and rights of others, and they demand constant resources and surveillance from social workers and the police. They divert resources from other needs.

Two years ago in my constituency in Aberdeen, a young child was abducted and murdered by a man who had been through the criminal justice system. He had attacked children before, been to jail and been let out again, and had not been identified and detained as someone who would pose a threat to others in future, as many of my constituents believe he should have been. After the death of that child the community was desperate for reassurance on the safety of its children. It welcomed the measures that were introduced in the Crime and Punishment (Scotland) Act 1997 and in the Sex Offenders Act 1997 to restrict the liberty of sex offenders. I believe that it will also welcome the principle of this bill, in making public safety adequate grounds for continuing detention, in order to reduce the risk of other dangerous men being released into the community when they should not be.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C706452", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Richard Simpson (Ochil) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 266.0, "ContributionID": 706452, "EditedText": "This is a sensitive and difficult issue of great complexity. This Parliament has a number of duties, which it has to meet. We have the clear duty to have in place legislation that protects the public from those whose mental disorder—whether it is mental illness, personality disorder or mental handicap— is manifest in seriously violent and aggressive behaviour. We also have a duty to ensure that those who have such a mental disorder should be treated humanely—I will come back to Mr Matheson's point about treatment, which was well made. We have a duty to ensure that the civil liberties and human rights of our citizens are protected. The law has been amended since 1984 with the introduction of hospital directions, which should deal with the substantial majority of the problematic cases. As I understand it, the bill is intended to deal with a small and dangerous minority of mentally disordered patients who are currently detained in the state hospital and whose release would pose a danger to public safety. Those patients have hitherto been regarded as being treated within the state hospital. Their right to appeal under the Mental Health (Scotland) Act 1984 has existed since the act was passed—the act gives them a right to an annual appeal. Appeals up to and including the Reid appeal were turned down on the grounds that the patients were receiving treatment and that their conditions were regarded as treatable. Since 1984, psychiatry's view of personality disorder has shifted, but the law has not. Psychiatrists take the view that personality disorder should generally be regarded as untreatable but still as a mental disorder. The question of treatability lies at the heart of the problem. The existence of a regime within the state hospital is no longer a sufficient ground to constitute treatment, unless that regime can be shown to be beneficial to the patient and not simply to the protection of public safety. I have no difficulty with the definition of personality disorder as a mental disorder, but psychiatrists have great difficulty with it being placed in the category of mental illness, as is proposed in the bill. However, there is no alternative at this time. Any other course of action would pre-empt the outcome of the MacLean and Millan committees, which would be inappropriate. Although I welcome the bill, I am reassured by the Minister for Justice's assurance that it is an interim measure and will not preclude the full review by MacLean and Millan. The definition of what constitutes a mental disorder is changing, and will continue to change as society's culture changes. We are dealing not with absolutes, but with things that are culturally based. I will give members an example. When I was a medical student, the laws on homosexuality were changing, but the medical profession—and psychiatry—still regarded it as a treatable medical condition, to which it applied various pretty horrific therapies. Society has moved on, thank God, and recognised that homosexuality is not an illness. Let us hypothesise that somebody discovers that personality disorders that are manifested in a dangerous, violent and aggressive form have a genetic basis, and that at some point in the future gene therapy is able to treat them. At that point, society will need to amend its laws again to take into account the fact that personality disorder has become a treatable condition. I am trying to say that we must make laws for now, and recognise that those laws may need to change. I welcome the bill. It is the appropriate measure to ensure the protection of the public, which is what this chamber is trying to achieve. However, the Millan and MacLean committees may choose to take a somewhat different view. As Mr Gallie suggested, they will have to examine this matter closely and to recommend that we incorporate into law adequate public safety measures, while giving absolute assurances that people with personality disorders, or those who are regarded merely as odd or difficult, will not be locked up by the state.", "EditedTextHTML": "This is a sensitive and difficult issue of great complexity. This Parliament has a number of duties, which it has to meet. We have the clear duty to have in place legislation that protects the public from those whose mental disorder—whether it is mental illness, personality disorder or mental handicap— is manifest in seriously violent and aggressive behaviour. We also have a duty to ensure that those who have such a mental disorder should be treated humanely—I will come back to Mr Matheson's point about treatment, which was well made. We have a duty to ensure that the civil liberties and human rights of our citizens are protected.

The law has been amended since 1984 with the introduction of hospital directions, which should deal with the substantial majority of the problematic cases. As I understand it, the bill is intended to deal with a small and dangerous minority of mentally disordered patients who are currently detained in the state hospital and whose release would pose a danger to public safety.

Those patients have hitherto been regarded as being treated within the state hospital. Their right to appeal under the Mental Health (Scotland) Act 1984 has existed since the act was passed—the act gives them a right to an annual appeal. Appeals up to and including the Reid appeal were turned down on the grounds that the patients were receiving treatment and that their conditions were regarded as treatable.

Since 1984, psychiatry's view of personality disorder has shifted, but the law has not. Psychiatrists take the view that personality disorder should generally be regarded as untreatable but still as a mental disorder. The question of treatability lies at the heart of the

problem. The existence of a regime within the state hospital is no longer a sufficient ground to constitute treatment, unless that regime can be shown to be beneficial to the patient and not simply to the protection of public safety.

I have no difficulty with the definition of personality disorder as a mental disorder, but psychiatrists have great difficulty with it being placed in the category of mental illness, as is proposed in the bill. However, there is no alternative at this time. Any other course of action would pre-empt the outcome of the MacLean and Millan committees, which would be inappropriate. Although I welcome the bill, I am reassured by the Minister for Justice's assurance that it is an interim measure and will not preclude the full review by MacLean and Millan.

The definition of what constitutes a mental disorder is changing, and will continue to change as society's culture changes. We are dealing not with absolutes, but with things that are culturally based. I will give members an example. When I was a medical student, the laws on homosexuality were changing, but the medical profession—and psychiatry—still regarded it as a treatable medical condition, to which it applied various pretty horrific therapies. Society has moved on, thank God, and recognised that homosexuality is not an illness.

Let us hypothesise that somebody discovers that personality disorders that are manifested in a dangerous, violent and aggressive form have a genetic basis, and that at some point in the future gene therapy is able to treat them. At that point, society will need to amend its laws again to take into account the fact that personality disorder has become a treatable condition. I am trying to say that we must make laws for now, and recognise that those laws may need to change.

I welcome the bill. It is the appropriate measure to ensure the protection of the public, which is what this chamber is trying to achieve. However, the Millan and MacLean committees may choose to take a somewhat different view. As Mr Gallie suggested, they will have to examine this matter closely and to recommend that we incorporate into law adequate public safety measures, while giving absolute assurances that people with personality disorders, or those who are regarded merely as odd or difficult, will not be locked up by the state.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2122E6P19C706458", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay", "ID": 2122, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lyndsay McIntosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Lyndsay McIntosh (Central Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 283.0, "ContributionID": 706458, "EditedText": "I thank the minister for providing us with a copy of the bill in both draft and final form. I am not sure which draft we received; I think that we were working from the seventh draft before the 12th was found. Given that we have had little time to digest the bill and to consider its implications, I do not plan to give a comprehensive survey of our position. However, next week in the chamber, if not before, the minister will become fully aware of our final stance, by which time we will have had a greater opportunity to assess the full impact of the legislation. I know how concerned Mr Wallace will be about knee-jerk reactions, so I will try not to provide him with one today. However, as has been said elsewhere—and as Westminster parliamentarians will remember—inevitably we worry about the effectiveness of any legislation that is hastily conceived and executed. It became obvious at an early stage that the public had grave reservations about the future of Noel Ruddle. The minister had an unambiguous responsibility to allay public concern. The changes that are proposed in the bill are to be welcomed in so far as they are interim measures. That said, we support the bill and what it seeks to achieve. I welcome the speeches that have been made by members of all parties, particularly that of Christine Grahame about conditional discharge. Mr Ruddle was released despite being unable to deal with the changes that had taken place while he was in hospital. At the end of a prison sentence, there is a programme of training for freedom. That might have helped Mr Ruddle, and it is to his credit that he has voluntarily sought psychiatric help. The Executive's proposal to put consideration of public safety above any treatability test is to be welcomed. The situation that meant that, irrespective of public safety, those deemed as untreatable had to be released, had to be reversed. Some might suggest that the proposal has severe implications for civil liberties. The Conservative party has always been concerned about civil liberties, the most important of which, of course, is to be free from crime and the distress that it causes. Once that liberty is taken into consideration, others might pale into insignificance. I ask the minister to expand his definition of treatment. Does he believe that someone's condition has to be curable in order for them to receive treatment? Does he accept that a person with a condition that has been classified as incurable should receive treatment to help manage their disorder? If so, will he consider giving those with so-called untreatable disorders, who have been detained on the ground of public safety, a right to treatment that will help them manage, control and cope with their disorder? Does he agree that to deny that right would have severe moral implications? Does he further agree that no matter how much effort is put into framing laws, there is always likely to be at least one case that will lead to the discovery of yet another loophole? Does he consider that in such circumstances, the loophole must be closed as quickly as possible? I would be most grateful if Mr Gray addressed those questions; as he is a long-term advocate of consensus politics, I am sure that that will cause him no great problem. After all, the interest and safety of the public are undoubtedly at stake. Notwithstanding any amendments that we may lodge, which naturally will be in line with the European convention on human rights, be assured that we in the Conservative party will do all in our power to assist the passage of the bill.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the minister for providing us with a copy of the bill in both draft and final form. I am not sure which draft we received; I think that we were working from the seventh draft before the 12th was found. Given that we have had little time to digest the bill and to consider its implications, I do not plan to give a comprehensive survey of our position. However, next week in the chamber, if not before, the minister will become fully aware of our final stance, by which time we will have had a greater opportunity to assess the full impact of the legislation.

I know how concerned Mr Wallace will be about knee-jerk reactions, so I will try not to provide him with one today. However, as has been said elsewhere—and as Westminster parliamentarians will remember—inevitably we worry about the effectiveness of any legislation that is hastily conceived and executed.

It became obvious at an early stage that the public had grave reservations about the future of Noel Ruddle. The minister had an unambiguous responsibility to allay public concern. The changes that are proposed in the bill are to be welcomed in so far as they are interim measures. That said, we support the bill and what it seeks to achieve.

I welcome the speeches that have been made by members of all parties, particularly that of Christine Grahame about conditional discharge. Mr Ruddle was released despite being unable to deal with the changes that had taken place while he was in hospital. At the end of a prison sentence, there is a programme of training for freedom. That might have helped Mr Ruddle, and it is to his credit that he has voluntarily sought psychiatric help.

The Executive's proposal to put consideration of public safety above any treatability test is to be welcomed. The situation that meant that, irrespective of public safety, those deemed as untreatable had to be released, had to be reversed. Some might suggest that the proposal has severe implications for civil liberties. The Conservative party has always been concerned about civil liberties, the most important of which, of course, is to be free from crime and the distress that it causes. Once that liberty is taken into consideration, others might pale into insignificance.

I ask the minister to expand his definition of treatment. Does he believe that someone's condition has to be curable in order for them to receive treatment? Does he accept that a person with a condition that has been classified as incurable should receive treatment to help manage their disorder? If so, will he consider giving those with so-called untreatable disorders, who have been detained on the ground of public safety, a right to treatment that will help them manage, control and cope with their disorder? Does he agree that to deny that right would have severe moral implications? Does he further agree that no matter how much effort is put into framing laws, there is always likely to be at least one case that will lead to the discovery of yet another loophole? Does he consider that in such circumstances, the loophole must be closed as quickly as possible?

I would be most grateful if Mr Gray addressed those questions; as he is a long-term advocate of

consensus politics, I am sure that that will cause him no great problem. After all, the interest and safety of the public are undoubtedly at stake.

Notwithstanding any amendments that we may lodge, which naturally will be in line with the European convention on human rights, be assured that we in the Conservative party will do all in our power to assist the passage of the bill.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C706459", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 285.0, "ContributionID": 706459, "EditedText": "Kay Ullrich will wind up for the Scottish National party.", "EditedTextHTML": "Kay Ullrich will wind up for the Scottish National party.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1811E172P455C706460", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ullrich, Kay", "ID": 1811, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kay Ullrich", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Kay Ullrich (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 288.0, "ContributionID": 706460, "EditedText": "Roseanna is telling me to stand up as I have the podium—I think that she thought that I would speak sitting down. There is no doubt that this case has raised serious legal issues regarding the ability of our laws to protect the public from violent, mentally disordered and sexual offenders. Those legal issues have been well aired over the past few weeks, but little attention has been paid to the medical issues raised by the Ruddle affair; I feel that that is reflected in the bill. Since 2 August, there have been only two Executive statements on the health implications of the case, leaving many questions unanswered. For example, it seems incredible that there has been no serious health input with regard to the lack of appropriate treatment for Mr Ruddle in the state mental hospital. We have had no information on the treatment and practice at Carstairs from the health minister, Susan Deacon, or from her deputy, Iain Gray, who is summing up. However, we do know that treatment for severe personality disorder was available—it was just not available at Carstairs. As a result, we have released into the community, without supervision, a man who has proved to be a violent and dangerous individual. Can Mr Gray tell us what provisions he intends to put in place to ensure that such treatment will now be available when and where the need is identified? Given that since 1994, Ruddle's responsible medical officer considered him treatable, but could not gain access to the appropriate treatment or therapy for his patient, will Mr Gray give his reaction to what seems to amount to a complete failure of the system to support the psychiatrist who was responsible for Ruddle's treatment? Even if we close the legal loophole that allowed Ruddle to be released, it is imperative that we ensure that people with severe personality disorders will in future have access to appropriate, effective treatment. Can Mr Gray assure us that personality disorder will be defined clearly in the bill, and that it will relate only to those who exhibit dangerous, aggressive, anti-social behaviour, and not to people who are not anti-social but who suffer from a non-aggressive personality disorder? There is concern about the frequent misdiagnosis of personality disorder. Will Mr Gray give a commitment that further research into professional understanding and use of that diagnosis will be undertaken? Personality disorder must not become a catch-all title, beneath which all forms of medical disorder can be conveniently placed. Those are just some of the health issues that have emerged from the case. However, I fear that those concerns are merely the tip of the iceberg, particularly when we consider patient discharge procedures and the subsequent supervision of patients in the community. As a matter of urgency, will Mr Gray initiate a review of those issues, which is crucial for public safety and to reassure victims and their families? For weeks we have been deafened by the sound of dragging feet by the Executive on the Ruddle case. In the eyes of the public, their handling of the case has damaged the Executive and the ministers responsible. It is their job to ensure that no further damage is done. Many questions have been asked today; in addition to those on health that I have asked, I ask Mr Gray to answer the points raised on compliance with articles 5 and 7 of the European convention on human rights. I ask him to answer those questions fully, as we must ensure that the public have confidence in public safety, treatment of health problems and human rights.", "EditedTextHTML": "Roseanna is telling me to stand up as I have the podium—I think that she thought that I would speak sitting down.

There is no doubt that this case has raised serious legal issues regarding the ability of our laws to protect the public from violent, mentally disordered and sexual offenders. Those legal issues have been well aired over the past few weeks, but little attention has been paid to the medical issues raised by the Ruddle affair; I feel that that is reflected in the bill.

Since 2 August, there have been only two Executive statements on the health implications of the case, leaving many questions unanswered. For example, it seems incredible that there has been no serious health input with regard to the lack of appropriate treatment for Mr Ruddle in the state mental hospital. We have had no information on the treatment and practice at Carstairs from the health minister, Susan Deacon, or from her deputy, Iain Gray, who is summing up.

However, we do know that treatment for severe personality disorder was available—it was just not available at Carstairs. As a result, we have released into the community, without supervision, a man who has proved to be a violent and dangerous individual. Can Mr Gray tell us what provisions he intends to put in place to ensure that such treatment will now be available when and where the need is identified?

Given that since 1994, Ruddle's responsible medical officer considered him treatable, but could not gain access to the appropriate treatment or therapy for his patient, will Mr Gray give his reaction to what seems to amount to a complete failure of the system to support the psychiatrist who was responsible for Ruddle's treatment? Even if we close the legal loophole that allowed Ruddle to be released, it is imperative that we ensure that people with severe personality disorders will in future have access to appropriate, effective treatment.

Can Mr Gray assure us that personality disorder will be defined clearly in the bill, and that it will relate only to those who exhibit dangerous, aggressive, anti-social behaviour, and not to people who are not anti-social but who suffer from a non-aggressive personality disorder?

There is concern about the frequent misdiagnosis of personality disorder. Will Mr Gray give a commitment that further research into professional understanding and use of that diagnosis will be undertaken? Personality disorder must not become a catch-all title, beneath which all forms of medical disorder can be conveniently placed.

Those are just some of the health issues that have emerged from the case. However, I fear that those concerns are merely the tip of the iceberg, particularly when we consider patient discharge procedures and the subsequent supervision of patients in the community. As a matter of urgency, will Mr Gray initiate a review of those issues, which is crucial for public safety and to reassure victims and their families?

For weeks we have been deafened by the sound of dragging feet by the Executive on the Ruddle case. In the eyes of the public, their handling of the case has damaged the Executive and the ministers responsible. It is their job to ensure that no further damage is done.

Many questions have been asked today; in addition to those on health that I have asked, I ask Mr Gray to answer the points raised on compliance with articles 5 and 7 of the European convention on human rights. I ask him to answer those questions fully, as we must ensure that the public have confidence in public safety, treatment of health problems and human rights.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2029E47P167C706472", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Henry, Hugh", "ID": 2029, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Hugh Henry", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Hugh Henry: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 308.0, "ContributionID": 706472, "EditedText": "On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I participated in the vote yesterday on the motion on public health, but my vote was not recorded.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I participated in the vote yesterday on the motion on public health, but my vote was not recorded.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706473", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 310.0, "ContributionID": 706473, "EditedText": "I take note of that. Your vote will be entered into the record. We will try to investigate such things. Question, That the meeting be now adjourned until 2.30 pm today, put and agreed to.—Lord James Douglas-Hamilton.", "EditedTextHTML": "I take note of that. Your vote will be entered into the record. We will try to investigate such things.

Question, That the meeting be now adjourned until 2.30 pm today, put and agreed to.—[Lord James Douglas-Hamilton.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706474", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 312.0, "ContributionID": 706474, "EditedText": "Meeting adjourned at 12:27.", "EditedTextHTML": "Meeting adjourned at 12:27.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706477", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26729, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 317.0, "ID": 26729, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 318.0, "ContributionID": 706477, "EditedText": "I remind members of what the standing orders say about question time. They provide that \"a member may ask a supplementary question only on the same subject matter as the original question and shall, in asking the question, do so briefly.\" I intend to implement that standing order this afternoon.", "EditedTextHTML": "I remind members of what the standing orders say about question time. They provide that

\"a member may ask a supplementary question only on the same subject matter as the original question and shall, in asking the question, do so briefly.\"

I intend to implement that standing order this afternoon.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C706479", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26729, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26730, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 320.0, "QuestionHeading": "“The Scotland Bill: A Guide”", "QuestionHeadingID": 26731, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 321.0, "DisplayOrder": 321.0, "ID": 26731, "ParentID": 26730 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister (Mr Donald Dewar): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 324.0, "ContributionID": 706479, "EditedText": "As Mike Russell has said, the guide was published in 1997 and was an accurate description of the Scotland Bill and of how the white paper proposals were being translated into legislative form. The process, which was completed with the passing of the Scotland Act 1998, was widely welcomed in Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "As Mike Russell has said, the guide was published in 1997 and was an accurate description of the Scotland Bill and of how the white paper proposals were being translated into legislative form. The process, which was completed with the passing of the Scotland Act 1998, was widely welcomed in Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C706486", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26729, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26730, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 320.0, "QuestionHeading": "Tall Ships", "QuestionHeadingID": 26732, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 334.0, "DisplayOrder": 334.0, "ID": 26732, "ParentID": 26730 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Galbraith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 339.0, "ContributionID": 706486, "EditedText": "I am grateful to the member for his comments. I think I am answering this question on two dubious pretexts: first, that because boats and sailing are involved, the issue is related to sport; secondly, that I come from Greenock, which is where the event was held. There is no doubt that, when we seek to regenerate and revitalise areas, we have to consider the broad spectrum of available tools, one of which is large sporting events. I want to congratulate not just Inverclyde Council on its outstanding work on the event, but Shetland Islands Council, which saw the next leg of the race. My heartiest congratulations go to both for taking a wide view of their responsibilities and of the way to push their areas forward.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful to the member for his comments. I think I am answering this question on two dubious pretexts: first, that because boats and sailing are involved, the issue is related to sport; secondly, that I come from Greenock, which is where the event was held.

There is no doubt that, when we seek to regenerate and revitalise areas, we have to consider the broad spectrum of available tools, one of which is large sporting events. I want to congratulate not just Inverclyde Council on its outstanding work on the event, but Shetland Islands Council, which saw the next leg of the race. My heartiest congratulations go to both for taking a wide view of their responsibilities and of the way to push their areas forward.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C706488", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26729, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26730, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 320.0, "QuestionHeading": "Business Start-ups (Internet)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26733, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "DisplayOrder": 341.0, "ID": 26733, "ParentID": 26730 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning (Henry McLeish): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 344.0, "ContributionID": 706488, "EditedText": "As part of our wider policy of support for the small business sector, the Scottish Executive is keen to improve the provision of information and assistance to business start-ups and other small businesses via the internet. Both Scottish Enterprise and Highlands and Islands Enterprise have basic start-up support available through their websites and work is in hand to enhance that considerably over the next few months.", "EditedTextHTML": "As part of our wider policy of support for the small business sector, the Scottish Executive is keen to improve the provision of information and assistance to business start-ups and other small businesses via the internet. Both Scottish Enterprise and Highlands and Islands Enterprise have basic start-up support available through their websites and work is in hand to enhance that considerably over the next few months.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C706491", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26729, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26730, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 320.0, "QuestionHeading": "Business Start-ups (Internet)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26733, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "DisplayOrder": 341.0, "ID": 26733, "ParentID": 26730 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 350.0, "ContributionID": 706491, "EditedText": "I am aware of the new technology that my colleague mentions. Last Friday, we had a knowledge economy breakfast with industrial and education leaders in Inverness and the matter was important not only for that part of Scotland but for the north-east. I reassure my colleague and the chamber that we are doing everything we can, in Scottish Enterprise and Highlands and Islands Enterprise, to embrace the new technologies. We assume that items such as e-commerce are the future and that investment is required. More important, we have to work alongside many of the private providers, including BT, to ensure that we have an infrastructure that is fit for business in the next century.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am aware of the new technology that my colleague mentions. Last Friday, we had a knowledge economy breakfast with industrial and education leaders in Inverness and the matter was important not only for that part of Scotland but for the north-east. I reassure my colleague and the chamber that we are doing everything we can, in Scottish Enterprise and Highlands and Islands Enterprise, to embrace the new technologies.

We assume that items such as e-commerce are the future and that investment is required. More important, we have to work alongside many of the private providers, including BT, to ensure that we have an infrastructure that is fit for business in the next century.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C706499", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26729, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26730, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 320.0, "QuestionHeading": "Information Strategy", "QuestionHeadingID": 26735, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 361.0, "DisplayOrder": 361.0, "ID": 26735, "ParentID": 26730 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 368.0, "ContributionID": 706499, "EditedText": "As my colleague is aware, a ministerial sub-committee on digital Scotland has been established under the chairmanship of Mr Galbraith. He will make a statement to the chamber in the autumn, to outline the details of our initiative and how it will be progressed.", "EditedTextHTML": "As my colleague is aware, a ministerial sub-committee on digital Scotland has been established under the chairmanship of Mr Galbraith. He will make a statement to the chamber in the autumn, to outline the details of our initiative and how it will be progressed.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C706501", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26729, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26730, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 320.0, "QuestionHeading": "Information Strategy", "QuestionHeadingID": 26735, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 361.0, "DisplayOrder": 361.0, "ID": 26735, "ParentID": 26730 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 372.0, "ContributionID": 706501, "EditedText": "We will be happy to provide as much information as possible in due course, at the appropriate time. Given Fiona McLeod's interest, it would be helpful if we could use her expertise and glean ideas from her as the strategy develops.", "EditedTextHTML": "We will be happy to provide as much information as possible in due course, at the appropriate time. Given Fiona McLeod's interest, it would be helpful if we could use her expertise and glean ideas from her as the strategy develops.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C706505", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26729, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26730, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 320.0, "QuestionHeading": "CCTV", "QuestionHeadingID": 26736, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 374.0, "DisplayOrder": 374.0, "ID": 26736, "ParentID": 26730 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Angus MacKay: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 381.0, "ContributionID": 706505, "EditedText": "The purpose of the monitoring that is under way is to ensure the effectiveness of the current schemes and future expenditure. The community safety challenge competition, which was launched in August for 2000-01, contains provision for £3 million-worth of challenge funding; £1.5 million for new CCTV schemes or extensions to existing schemes and £1.5 million for new community safety initiatives, precisely to recognise that community safety embraces more than just CCTV. We are looking for innovative new schemes to be developed.", "EditedTextHTML": "The purpose of the monitoring that is under way is to ensure the effectiveness of the current schemes and future expenditure. The community safety challenge competition, which was launched in August for 2000-01, contains provision for £3 million-worth of challenge funding; £1.5 million for new CCTV schemes or extensions to existing schemes and £1.5 million for new

community safety initiatives, precisely to recognise that community safety embraces more than just CCTV. We are looking for innovative new schemes to be developed.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706508", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26729, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26730, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 320.0, "QuestionHeading": "Rail Services (Glasgow to Cumbernauld)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26737, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 383.0, "DisplayOrder": 383.0, "ID": 26737, "ParentID": 26730 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 388.0, "ContributionID": 706508, "EditedText": "Ask a question, please.", "EditedTextHTML": "Ask a question, please.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1803E78P291C706514", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26729, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26730, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 320.0, "QuestionHeading": "Bus Services (Lanarkshire)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26739, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 401.0, "DisplayOrder": 401.0, "ID": 26739, "ParentID": 26730 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gillon, Karen", "ID": 1803, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Clydesdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Karen Gillon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "9. Karen Gillon (Clydesdale) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 402.0, "ContributionID": 706514, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what proposals it has to improve the frequency of bus services in Lanarkshire. (S1O-219) The Minister for Transport and the Environment (Sarah Boyack): We propose to introduce legislation later this session. Our aim is to improve bus quality and frequency by giving a statutory basis to quality partnerships, by setting new standards for timetabling, through ticketing and enforcement, and by making arrangements for quality contracts where appropriate.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what proposals it has to improve the frequency of bus services in Lanarkshire. (S1O-219) The Minister for Transport and the Environment (Sarah Boyack): We propose to introduce legislation later this session. Our aim is to improve bus quality and frequency by giving a statutory basis to quality partnerships, by setting new standards for timetabling, through ticketing and enforcement, and by making arrangements for quality contracts where appropriate.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1803E78P291C706515", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26729, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26730, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 320.0, "QuestionHeading": "Bus Services (Lanarkshire)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26739, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 401.0, "DisplayOrder": 401.0, "ID": 26739, "ParentID": 26730 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gillon, Karen", "ID": 1803, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Clydesdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Karen Gillon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Karen Gillon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 404.0, "ContributionID": 706515, "EditedText": "I thank the minister for her answer. I am sure that all of my Lanarkshire colleagues will agree that the improvement of bus services is essential to the regeneration of Lanarkshire. What steps is the Scottish Executive able to take to help with the affordability of bus transport in Lanarkshire, as that is a major barrier to people using bus services?", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the minister for her answer. I am sure that all of my Lanarkshire colleagues will agree that the improvement of bus services is essential to the regeneration of Lanarkshire.

What steps is the Scottish Executive able to take to help with the affordability of bus transport in Lanarkshire, as that is a major barrier to people using bus services?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2228E151P202C706519", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26729, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26730, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 320.0, "QuestionHeading": "Parliamentary Questions", "QuestionHeadingID": 26740, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 408.0, "DisplayOrder": 408.0, "ID": 26740, "ParentID": 26730 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McCabe, Tom", "ID": 2228, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Tom McCabe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McCabe: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 413.0, "ContributionID": 706519, "EditedText": "If the information is in the public domain, we are happy to consider where it lies. If the Executive is not the main source of the information, we are also happy to consider which would be the appropriate body to provide it, and to highlight the answers where the information is clearly already public or is available from a source other than the Executive. There are concerns about value-for-money issues and about the most effective use of the Parliament's, and the Executive's, resources.", "EditedTextHTML": "If the information is in the public domain, we are happy to consider where it lies. If the Executive is not the main source of the information, we are also happy to consider which would be the appropriate body to provide it, and to highlight the answers where the information is clearly already public or is available from a source other than the Executive. There are concerns about value-for-money issues and about the most effective use of the Parliament's, and the Executive's, resources.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C706521", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26729, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26730, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 320.0, "QuestionHeading": "Tourism", "QuestionHeadingID": 26741, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 415.0, "DisplayOrder": 415.0, "ID": 26741, "ParentID": 26730 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 418.0, "ContributionID": 706521, "EditedText": "I thank the minister for his response. I also thank Henry McLeish for his time when he met me last Friday to hear major concerns raised by the tourism industry in the Highlands and Islands. I welcome his approach to working together. Prior to the November budget, will the Scottish Executive make strong representations to the Chancellor of the Exchequer to alleviate or reduce the crippling duty on fuel that is such a major part of the budget for a holiday in a rural area?", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the minister for his response. I also thank Henry McLeish for his time when he met me last Friday to hear major concerns raised by the tourism industry in the Highlands and Islands. I welcome his approach to working together.

Prior to the November budget, will the Scottish Executive make strong representations to the Chancellor of the Exchequer to alleviate or reduce the crippling duty on fuel that is such a major part of the budget for a holiday in a rural area?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2234E7P20C706523", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26729, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26730, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 320.0, "QuestionHeading": "Housing", "QuestionHeadingID": 26742, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 422.0, "DisplayOrder": 422.0, "ID": 26742, "ParentID": 26730 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Aitken, Bill", "ID": 2234, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bill Aitken", "SpeakerDisplayName": "12. Bill Aitken (Glasgow) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 423.0, "ContributionID": 706523, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive how it will deal with submissions and responses to the green paper \"Investing in Modernisation—an Agenda for Scotland's Housing\". (S1O-221) The Minister for Communities (Ms Wendy Alexander): I thank Bill Aitken for his question, as it gives me an opportunity, on behalf of the Executive, to thank the many organisations and individuals in Scotland who responded to the green paper. I have today published a summary of the responses and set out the next steps that the Executive is going to take, including our plans to publish a draft housing bill in the first half of next year.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive how it will deal with submissions and responses to the green paper \"Investing in Modernisation—an Agenda for Scotland's Housing\". (S1O-221) The Minister for Communities (Ms Wendy Alexander): I thank Bill Aitken for his question, as it gives me an opportunity, on behalf of the Executive, to thank the many organisations and individuals in Scotland who responded to the green paper.

I have today published a summary of the responses and set out the next steps that the Executive is going to take, including our plans to publish a draft housing bill in the first half of next year.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C706525", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26729, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26730, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 320.0, "QuestionHeading": "Housing", "QuestionHeadingID": 26742, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 422.0, "DisplayOrder": 422.0, "ID": 26742, "ParentID": 26730 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 427.0, "ContributionID": 706525, "EditedText": "I am somewhat puzzled by the invitation that Bill has extended to me. I will try to encourage him by saying that the sum of £464 million which we inherited, which was planned by the Conservative Administration, will have been increased to £640 million by the end of the comprehensive spending review period. That is an increase of 40 per cent above the planned level. I would, however, like to say that the challenge is not simply about accessing public investment, but much more fundamentally about accessing other investment in partnership with the public sector. That is one of the fundamental challenges on housing policy that faces this Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am somewhat puzzled by the invitation that Bill has extended to me. I will try to encourage him by saying that the sum of £464 million which we inherited, which was planned by the Conservative Administration, will have been increased to £640 million by the end of the comprehensive spending review period. That is an increase of 40 per cent above the planned level. I would, however, like to say that the challenge is not simply about accessing public investment, but much more fundamentally about accessing other investment in partnership with the public sector. That is one of the fundamental challenges on housing policy that faces this Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C706528", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26729, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26730, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 320.0, "QuestionHeading": "Cattle Cull", "QuestionHeadingID": 26743, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 429.0, "DisplayOrder": 429.0, "ID": 26743, "ParentID": 26730 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bruce Crawford: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 434.0, "ContributionID": 706528, "EditedText": "The minister may be aware that the disposal of this render material from the BSE cattle cull is causing particular concern to people living in the Saline and Blairingone areas of Fife, Clackmannanshire and Perth and Kinross conjoined boundaries. In view of that concern, can the minister tell the Parliament how many tonnes of this material are still in storage, what methods have been deployed for disposal and what methods will be used in future?", "EditedTextHTML": "The minister may be aware that the disposal of this render material from the BSE cattle cull is causing particular concern to people living in the Saline and Blairingone areas of Fife, Clackmannanshire and Perth and Kinross conjoined boundaries. In view of that concern, can the minister tell the Parliament how many tonnes of this material are still in storage, what methods have been deployed for disposal and what methods will be used in future?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706536", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26729, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26730, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 320.0, "QuestionHeading": "Disabled People", "QuestionHeadingID": 26744, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 442.0, "DisplayOrder": 442.0, "ID": 26744, "ParentID": 26730 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 451.0, "ContributionID": 706536, "EditedText": "Hoping is not a question.", "EditedTextHTML": "Hoping is not a question.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1805E13P109C706537", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26729, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26730, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 320.0, "QuestionHeading": "Disabled People", "QuestionHeadingID": 26744, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 442.0, "DisplayOrder": 442.0, "ID": 26744, "ParentID": 26730 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Whitefield, Karen", "ID": 1805, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Airdrie and Shotts" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Karen Whitefield", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Karen Whitefield: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 453.0, "ContributionID": 706537, "EditedText": "I hope that the minister will give me a commitment to support and resource local authorities to introduce and improve schemes such as this one. Will she support it?", "EditedTextHTML": "I hope that the minister will give me a commitment to support and resource local authorities to introduce and improve schemes such as this one. Will she support it?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2154E194P299C706545", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26729, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26730, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 320.0, "QuestionHeading": "Employment (Forth Valley, Fife and Lothian)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26745, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 457.0, "DisplayOrder": 457.0, "ID": 26745, "ParentID": 26730 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stephen, Nicol", "ID": 2154, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Nicol Stephen", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicol Stephen: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 470.0, "ContributionID": 706545, "EditedText": "I am not able to say anything about that issue directly. Clearly, the Scottish Executive wants to encourage new enterprise and new start-ups; it wants to grow existing enterprise and encourage inward investment. A good example of that, announced today, was the investment of £60 million by Motorola at South Queensferry and the creation of 200 jobs there.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am not able to say anything about that issue directly. Clearly, the Scottish Executive wants to encourage new enterprise and new start-ups; it wants to grow existing enterprise and encourage inward investment.

A good example of that, announced today, was the investment of £60 million by Motorola at South Queensferry and the creation of 200 jobs there.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2154E194P299C706552", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26729, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26730, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 320.0, "QuestionHeading": "Employment (Forth Valley, Fife and Lothian)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26745, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 457.0, "DisplayOrder": 457.0, "ID": 26745, "ParentID": 26730 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stephen, Nicol", "ID": 2154, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Nicol Stephen", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicol Stephen: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 484.0, "ContributionID": 706552, "EditedText": "There are many issues that the Executive, Locate in Scotland, Scottish Enterprise and the local enterprise companies are involved in. I am not able to say anything further at this stage, but I will take up the matter and the concern expressed by Margo MacDonald. If I am able to give her any information in addition to what I have just said, I will do so.", "EditedTextHTML": "There are many issues that the Executive, Locate in Scotland, Scottish Enterprise and the local enterprise companies are involved in. I am not able to say anything further at this stage, but I will take up the matter and the concern expressed by Margo MacDonald. If I am able to give her any information in addition to what I have just said, I will do so.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1823E145P193C706553", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26729, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26730, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 320.0, "QuestionHeading": "Warm Deal Grants", "QuestionHeadingID": 26746, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 486.0, "DisplayOrder": 486.0, "ID": 26746, "ParentID": 26730 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jamieson, Margaret", "ID": 1823, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Kilmarnock and Loudoun" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Jamieson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "16. Margaret Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 487.0, "ContributionID": 706553, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will make a statement on what provision is being made to promote the take-up of warm deal grants to pensioners and families on low incomes. (S1O-238) The Deputy Minister for Local Government (Mr Frank McAveety): The warm deal registered installers have contractual responsibility for publicising the scheme in their areas. In addition, we propose to promote the scheme through organisations such as Help the Aged, Energy Action Scotland and Disability Scotland. A number of warm deal promotional events are also scheduled to take place to coincide with the onset of winter.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will make a statement on what provision is being made to promote the take-up of warm deal grants to pensioners and families on low incomes. (S1O-238) The Deputy Minister for Local Government (Mr Frank McAveety): The warm deal registered installers have contractual responsibility for publicising the scheme in their areas. In addition, we propose to promote the scheme through organisations such as Help the Aged, Energy Action Scotland and Disability Scotland. A number of warm deal promotional events are also scheduled to take place to coincide with the onset of winter.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2223E203P342C706557", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26729, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26730, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 320.0, "QuestionHeading": "Economic Aid (Unst)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26747, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 493.0, "DisplayOrder": 493.0, "ID": 26747, "ParentID": 26730 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scott, Tavish", "ID": 2223, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Shetland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tavish Scott", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tavish Scott: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 496.0, "ContributionID": 706557, "EditedText": "I am grateful for that reply. I further ask the minister if he will recognise what effect the job losses will have on the economy of a community of 1,000 people in the north of Scotland. The loss of those jobs will mean that 30 per cent of the population, more than 50 per cent of the work force and two thirds of the school roll will potentially go. Therefore, the current 42-day consultation period is not adequate. Will the minister make representations to the Ministry of Defence on the length of the consultation period, and will he consider the designation of the area as initiative on the edge? That could give much- needed stimulus to the area.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful for that reply. I further ask the minister if he will recognise what effect the job losses will have on the economy of a community of 1,000 people in the north of Scotland. The loss of those jobs will mean that 30 per cent of the population, more than 50 per cent of the work force and two thirds of the school roll will potentially go. Therefore, the current 42-day consultation period is not adequate. Will the minister make representations to the Ministry of Defence on the length of the consultation period, and will he consider the designation of the area as initiative on the edge? That could give much- needed stimulus to the area.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1889E118P162C706558", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26729, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26730, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 320.0, "QuestionHeading": "Economic Aid (Unst)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26747, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 493.0, "DisplayOrder": 493.0, "ID": 26747, "ParentID": 26730 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morrison, Mr Alasdair", "ID": 1889, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Western Isles" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morrison", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Morrison: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 498.0, "ContributionID": 706558, "EditedText": "I empathise with Tavish Scott. I face a similar situation in the island of Benbecula, although not quite on the same scale. I am grateful to Wendy Alexander, who recently visited the island of Unst and gave me a valuable insight into the situation. We are having a conference on the island of Harris on 5 November, when the issue of initiative on the edge designation will be discussed. I assure Tavish Scott that I shall visit Unst shortly, and I shall liaise with him and the Deputy First Minister as we continue our dialogue with all the relevant agencies to identify possible options for that community.", "EditedTextHTML": "I empathise with Tavish Scott. I face a similar situation in the island of Benbecula, although not quite on the same scale. I am grateful to Wendy Alexander, who recently visited the island of Unst and gave me a valuable insight into the situation. We are having a conference on the

island of Harris on 5 November, when the issue of initiative on the edge designation will be discussed. I assure Tavish Scott that I shall visit Unst shortly, and I shall liaise with him and the Deputy First Minister as we continue our dialogue with all the relevant agencies to identify possible options for that community.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706559", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26748, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 500.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 500.0, "ID": 26748, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 501.0, "ContributionID": 706559, "EditedText": "We now move to open question time. I stress that supplementary questions should refer to the same topic.", "EditedTextHTML": "We now move to open question time. I stress that supplementary questions should refer to the same topic.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C706567", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26748, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 500.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26749, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 511.0, "QuestionHeading": "Transport", "QuestionHeadingID": 26750, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 512.0, "DisplayOrder": 512.0, "ID": 26750, "ParentID": 26749 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 519.0, "ContributionID": 706567, "EditedText": "It is open question time, but I can help the First Minister by saying that our opposition to his toll tax proposals has been well ventilated in recent months, otherwise he would not be so concerned about the campaign. If he will not answer the question on his views of private companies collecting his toll tax, can he elaborate on section 4.3.2 of the consultation document \"Tackling Congestion\", which says that, \"the Scottish Executive is not… minded to place a limit on the maximum charge or levy which can be imposed\"? Does that mean that the sky is the limit as far as toll taxes are concerned?", "EditedTextHTML": "It is open question time, but I can help the First Minister by saying that our opposition to his toll tax proposals has been well ventilated in recent months, otherwise he would not be so concerned about the campaign.

If he will not answer the question on his views of private companies collecting his toll tax, can he elaborate on section 4.3.2 of the consultation document \"Tackling Congestion\", which says that,

\"the Scottish Executive is not… minded to place a limit on the maximum charge or levy which can be imposed\"?

Does that mean that the sky is the limit as far as toll taxes are concerned?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1878E208P502C706569", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26748, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 500.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26749, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 511.0, "QuestionHeading": "Transport", "QuestionHeadingID": 26750, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 512.0, "DisplayOrder": 512.0, "ID": 26750, "ParentID": 26749 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Dr Winnie", "ID": 1878, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Winnie Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Winnie Ewing (Highlands and Islands) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 523.0, "ContributionID": 706569, "EditedText": "Get the name right.", "EditedTextHTML": "Get the name right.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C706571", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26748, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 500.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26749, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 511.0, "QuestionHeading": "Transport", "QuestionHeadingID": 26750, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 512.0, "DisplayOrder": 512.0, "ID": 26750, "ParentID": 26749 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 527.0, "ContributionID": 706571, "EditedText": "I would have thought, after the Skye bridge fiasco, that the First Minister would be anxious to rule out private companies administering the toll tax. Can I put to him the extent of the charge that might be entailed by his toll tax plans? If the tax is 5p a mile, it means that someone commuting from Glasgow to Edinburgh, or, for that matter, from Hamilton to Edinburgh—", "EditedTextHTML": "I would have thought, after the Skye bridge fiasco, that the First Minister would be anxious to rule out private companies administering the toll tax. Can I put to him the extent of the charge that might be entailed by his toll tax plans? If the tax is 5p a mile, it means that someone commuting from Glasgow to Edinburgh, or, for that matter, from Hamilton to Edinburgh—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706572", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26748, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 500.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26749, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 511.0, "QuestionHeading": "Transport", "QuestionHeadingID": 26750, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 512.0, "DisplayOrder": 512.0, "ID": 26750, "ParentID": 26749 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 529.0, "ContributionID": 706572, "EditedText": "A question.", "EditedTextHTML": "A question.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C706575", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26748, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 500.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26749, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 511.0, "QuestionHeading": "Transport", "QuestionHeadingID": 26750, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 512.0, "DisplayOrder": 512.0, "ID": 26750, "ParentID": 26749 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 535.0, "ContributionID": 706575, "EditedText": "£900?", "EditedTextHTML": "£900?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C706578", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26748, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 500.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26749, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 511.0, "QuestionHeading": "Transport", "QuestionHeadingID": 26750, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 512.0, "DisplayOrder": 512.0, "ID": 26750, "ParentID": 26749 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 541.0, "ContributionID": 706578, "EditedText": "There is a genuine debate here—come and join it.", "EditedTextHTML": "There is a genuine debate here—come and join it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C706580", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26748, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 500.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26749, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 511.0, "QuestionHeading": "Governance of Scotland", "QuestionHeadingID": 26751, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 543.0, "DisplayOrder": 543.0, "ID": 26751, "ParentID": 26749 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 546.0, "ContributionID": 706580, "EditedText": "I welcome the First Minister's answer and ask him to confirm that he has no plans, following the publication of the report of the Cubie committee and the decision of the cabinet that may follow from that report, to change the principles of collective responsibility set out in the guide to decision making published by the Executive last month. In particular, will he disown the suggestions by his Deputy First Minister at the weekend that somehow or other the concept of ring-fencing may be introduced as a permanent feature of government?", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the First Minister's answer and ask him to confirm that he has no plans, following the publication of the report of the Cubie committee and the decision of the cabinet that may follow from that report, to change the principles of collective responsibility set out in the guide to decision making published by the Executive last month. In particular, will he disown the suggestions by his Deputy First Minister at the weekend that somehow or other the concept of ring-fencing may be introduced as a permanent feature of government?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C706583", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26748, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 500.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26749, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 511.0, "QuestionHeading": "Governance of Scotland", "QuestionHeadingID": 26751, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 543.0, "DisplayOrder": 543.0, "ID": 26751, "ParentID": 26749 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 552.0, "ContributionID": 706583, "EditedText": "Mr McLetchie should go and have a look at what was said on that occasion, which was that, of course, we would be examining all options. That is the position. We have had some good discussions about this. We will be in touch with the National Farmers Union. The record of this Government in helping agriculture is a remarkably good one. Almost £60 million over and above the European support payments was found last year, and we are well aware of the problems that are currently faced by the agriculture sector. At least we have a track record of genuine concern and of action. I commend it to Mr McLetchie.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr McLetchie should go and have a look at what was said on that occasion, which was that, of course, we would be examining all options. That is the position. We have had some good discussions about this. We will be in touch with the National Farmers Union. The record of this Government in helping agriculture is a remarkably good one. Almost £60 million over and above the European support payments was found last year, and we are well aware of the problems that are currently faced by the agriculture sector. At least we have a track record of genuine concern and of action. I commend it to Mr McLetchie.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1762E216P508C706584", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26748, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 500.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26749, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 511.0, "QuestionHeading": "Governance of Scotland", "QuestionHeadingID": 26751, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 543.0, "DisplayOrder": 543.0, "ID": 26751, "ParentID": 26749 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Elder, Dorothy-Grace", "ID": 1762, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 554.0, "ContributionID": 706584, "EditedText": "Does the Scottish Executive agree that in the interests of the better governance of Scotland, the Department of Social Security and the benefits system in Scotland should be the responsibility not of Westminster, but of this Scottish Parliament?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the Scottish Executive agree that in the interests of the better governance of Scotland, the Department of Social Security and the benefits system in Scotland should be the responsibility not of Westminster, but of this Scottish Parliament?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1762E216P508C706586", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26748, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 500.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26749, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 511.0, "QuestionHeading": "Governance of Scotland", "QuestionHeadingID": 26751, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 543.0, "DisplayOrder": 543.0, "ID": 26751, "ParentID": 26749 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Elder, Dorothy-Grace", "ID": 1762, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 558.0, "ContributionID": 706586, "EditedText": "So we cannot afford it in Scotland? Is that what the minister is saying? We manage to spend £1.5 billion a year running Trident, and that is being cut from British benefits.", "EditedTextHTML": "So we cannot afford it in Scotland? Is that what the minister is saying? We manage to spend £1.5 billion a year running Trident, and that is being cut from British benefits.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2123E103P242C706589", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26748, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 500.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26749, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 511.0, "QuestionHeading": "Scottish Civic Forum", "QuestionHeadingID": 26752, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 562.0, "DisplayOrder": 562.0, "ID": 26752, "ParentID": 26749 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Chisholm, Malcolm", "ID": 2123, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh North and Leith" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Malcolm Chisholm", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Malcolm Chisholm: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 565.0, "ContributionID": 706589, "EditedText": "Given that we have made radical commitments to involve outside people and bodies in the work of this Parliament, and given that the civic forum is a crucial umbrella organisation for that purpose, I welcome the fact that the minister is holding meetings with the forum's representatives. Can he confirm that no legislative action is required prior to funding the forum, and will he ensure that support is given to the forum as soon as possible?", "EditedTextHTML": "Given that we have made radical commitments to involve outside people and bodies in the work of this Parliament, and given that the civic forum is a crucial umbrella organisation for that purpose, I welcome the fact that the minister is holding meetings with the forum's representatives. Can he confirm that no legislative action is required prior to funding the forum, and will he ensure that support is given to the forum as soon as possible?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2140E187P335C706591", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26748, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 500.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26749, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 511.0, "QuestionHeading": "Scottish Civic Forum", "QuestionHeadingID": 26752, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 562.0, "DisplayOrder": 562.0, "ID": 26752, "ParentID": 26749 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Rumbles, Mike", "ID": 2140, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Rumbles", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Mike Rumbles (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 569.0, "ContributionID": 706591, "EditedText": "Will the minister ensure that civic bodies in our rural areas outside the central belt are consulted with regard to the funding of the civic forum?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister ensure that civic bodies in our rural areas outside the central belt are consulted with regard to the funding of the civic forum?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C706592", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26748, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 500.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26749, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 511.0, "QuestionHeading": "Scottish Civic Forum", "QuestionHeadingID": 26752, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 562.0, "DisplayOrder": 562.0, "ID": 26752, "ParentID": 26749 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 571.0, "ContributionID": 706592, "EditedText": "Yes, I will raise that issue with the representatives of the forum. It is important that whatever arrangements we establish with them and with other bodies, we ensure that the whole of Scotland is represented in the consultations and the engagements that take place over the coming four years.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes, I will raise that issue with the representatives of the forum. It is important that whatever arrangements we establish with them and with other bodies, we ensure that the whole of Scotland is represented in the consultations and the engagements that take place over the coming four years.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706594", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26748, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 500.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26749, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 511.0, "QuestionHeading": "Scottish Civic Forum", "QuestionHeadingID": 26752, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 562.0, "DisplayOrder": 562.0, "ID": 26752, "ParentID": 26749 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 575.0, "ContributionID": 706594, "EditedText": "Ministers are responsible for their own answers.", "EditedTextHTML": "Ministers are responsible for their own answers.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706596", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26748, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 500.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26749, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 511.0, "QuestionHeading": "Scottish Civic Forum", "QuestionHeadingID": 26752, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 562.0, "DisplayOrder": 562.0, "ID": 26752, "ParentID": 26749 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 579.0, "ContributionID": 706596, "EditedText": "I cannot rule it out of order because there is nothing in the standing orders that says that parties should be called by their proper names, but I would have thought that it is obvious that they should be.", "EditedTextHTML": "I cannot rule it out of order because there is nothing in the standing orders that says that parties should be called by their proper names, but I would have thought that it is obvious that they should be.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C706598", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Cultural Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26753, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 581.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 581.0, "ID": 26753, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Children and Education (Mr Sam Galbraith): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 585.0, "ContributionID": 706598, "EditedText": "I am pleased to open this debate on the national cultural strategy for Scotland. I believe that there has never been a better time for us to have such a cultural strategy. We face the future with the confidence of a nation with its own new Parliament. It is the intention of the Scottish Executive to prepare a cultural strategy so that we can properly promote and develop Scotland's diverse cultural interests in the new millennium. Over the years, various aspects of cultural life have been subjected to scrutiny, review and research. Most recently, there has been the excellent work carried out by the Scottish Arts Council under the chairmanship of Ruth Wishart. The process on which we are embarked is different in that it is intended to be the first in which we draw together all parts of the cultures and arts in Scotland and go further in examining all aspects of our cultural life. At this stage, nothing is ruled out and nothing is ruled in. We shall listen to what the people tell us in the consultation. However, it would be disingenuous not to make my starting point clear. The aim of this process is to establish a clear strategy and set of objectives, which we can all work together to achieve in the years to come. This process is not about a wholesale restructuring of the arts and heritage sector. Some changes might be needed, but the focus is firmly on the arts and what they can do for individuals in our society. This is not an exercise in re- engineering bureaucracy. The strategy will recognise the richness and diversity of our culture and seek to harness it for the benefit of all our citizens. It will encompass all the arts, including music, dance, theatre, writing, sculpture, architecture, painting, design crafts, television, film, photography and video. The strategy will embrace the most recent developments in multimedia and the creative industries with their important associated economic effects. The strategy will embrace Scotland's cultural heritage, our museums, galleries, libraries and the built heritage. It will celebrate the past, while preparing for the future. It will embrace the old and the new, the traditional and the modern. We also recognise that the Gaelic and Scots languages and traditions are each important and that the cultural wealth that other languages and traditions have brought also has a contribution to make.My colleague, Rhona Brankin, launched this process a few weeks ago in Inverness. Copies of the national cultural strategy are now available in print as well as on the internet and in this Parliament. Our aim is to ensure that the process is as inclusive as possible. To that end, we are planning a series of meetings throughout the country, from north to south and east to west. Those meetings will be open to the public and will be held during September, October and November.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am pleased to open this debate on the national cultural strategy for Scotland. I believe that there has never been a better time for us to have such a cultural strategy. We face the future with the confidence of a nation with its own new Parliament. It is the intention of the Scottish Executive to prepare a cultural strategy so that we can properly promote and develop Scotland's diverse cultural interests in the new millennium.

Over the years, various aspects of cultural life have been subjected to scrutiny, review and research. Most recently, there has been the excellent work carried out by the Scottish Arts Council under the chairmanship of Ruth Wishart. The process on which we are embarked is different in that it is intended to be the first in which we draw together all parts of the cultures and arts in Scotland and go further in examining all aspects of our cultural life.

At this stage, nothing is ruled out and nothing is ruled in. We shall listen to what the people tell us in the consultation. However, it would be disingenuous not to make my starting point clear. The aim of this process is to establish a clear strategy and set of objectives, which we can all work together to achieve in the years to come.

This process is not about a wholesale restructuring of the arts and heritage sector. Some changes might be needed, but the focus is firmly on the arts and what they can do for individuals in our society. This is not an exercise in re- engineering bureaucracy. The strategy will recognise the richness and diversity of our culture and seek to harness it for the benefit of all our citizens. It will encompass all the arts, including music, dance, theatre, writing, sculpture, architecture, painting, design crafts, television, film, photography and video. The strategy will embrace the most recent developments in multimedia and the creative industries with their important associated economic effects.

The strategy will embrace Scotland's cultural heritage, our museums, galleries, libraries and the built heritage. It will celebrate the past, while preparing for the future. It will embrace the old and the new, the traditional and the modern. We also recognise that the Gaelic and Scots languages and traditions are each important and that the cultural wealth that other languages and traditions

have brought also has a contribution to make.

My colleague, Rhona Brankin, launched this process a few weeks ago in Inverness. Copies of the national cultural strategy are now available in print as well as on the internet and in this Parliament. Our aim is to ensure that the process is as inclusive as possible. To that end, we are planning a series of meetings throughout the country, from north to south and east to west. Those meetings will be open to the public and will be held during September, October and November.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706601", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Cultural Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26753, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 581.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 581.0, "ID": 26753, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 591.0, "ContributionID": 706601, "EditedText": "I call on Michael Russell to open for the Scottish National party.", "EditedTextHTML": "I call on Michael Russell to open for the Scottish National party.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C706602", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Cultural Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26753, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 581.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 581.0, "ID": 26753, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell (South of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 594.0, "ContributionID": 706602, "EditedText": "Your propriety as regards the names of parties was never questioned, Sir David. I welcome this debate. The opportunity to discuss cultural matters is an example of why there should be an effective Parliament in Scotland. I have never been a member of the Westminster Parliament but, as I am sure the minister will confirm, the discussion of Scottish culture could never be central to the work of Westminster—that is not a criticism—although it can be central to our work. I give a broad welcome to the Government's proposal, as culture is a subject on which there could be bipartisan support. I hope that that will develop. However, I am critical of this motion and lodged an amendment, which, unfortunately, was not called for debate. One of the difficulties I found in trying to amend the motion was its anodyne nature. Another difficulty was the reference— buried in the middle—to the national cultural strategy. There are many areas of cultural policy in which the Scottish National party would want to work with the Administration, but the national cultural strategy presents difficulties, on which I will concentrate today. The Government's document is stylistically attractive but, as we will discover during this debate, lacking in substance. It opens with a quotation from the partnership agreement document, which the Government seems to believe is a work of art—it is certainly a work of fiction. It says: \"We believe that arts and culture have a central role in shaping a sense of community and civic pride in the new Scotland.\" None of us would have any difficulty in endorsing that. We believe that arts and culture are central to our lives. Another quotation in this document, however, is even more accurate. It is from A L Kennedy, speaking in the Poets' Parliament. She says: \"I think Scottish writing has contributed to the moves that set up a Scottish parliament, but it did that by being nonaligned and anarchic and critical and all the things it is and I hope will remain\". The important nature of cultural activity of all sorts is that it should be anarchic, critical, nonaligned and exciting. Anybody who has been in Edinburgh in recent weeks will have found that even this douce city, which can be grey in the heart of winter, has its existence touched, transformed, shaken and enlightened by the intense application of the arts—even if some weeks ago the First Minister called some of the performances \"fair hellish\". There is an enormous range of activity apart from the festival: the fringe, the television festival, the film festival, the book festival and a range of other activities. An early step that the minister might take would be to persuade the festival authorities that it is fundamentally daft to have a festival continuing without a fringe and that the festival period should be intensified, not diluted. Creativity and culture should touch our national life. It should touch everyone because everyone can be transformed, shaken, enlightened and excited by creativity and everyone is creative. The real question in a cultural policy, therefore—and I do not want to talk about strategy—is what a Government can do to make that happen. What is the Government's proper role? Its proper role is to encourage and support excellence, diversity, creativity and inclusion—those are all things that a Government must aim for. How is that to be done? It is to be done by consultation, discussion and financial support. The question we have to ask of this strategy is: will it achieve its aims? I have to say that—at the moment, with the jury out—I, like many people, have severe doubts. The strategy is off to a bad start, because the right way of starting the search for the answer to those questions would have been to consult the other parties in the Parliament before the document was published. For example, I am worried about the composition of the focus group—and about focus groups in the arts. I am sure that many of the people are well qualified, but the group does not seem to be particularly inclusive. If there had been an attempt to consult the other parties, we might have agreed on how we could contribute to the process. So here is the document, fully formed. Indeed, the document is almost ironic, because although it contains Scottish Office prose, it also contains the most wonderful pearls—not written by the Scottish Office, of course. One of those pearls is this superb quote from Hugh MacDiarmid: \"He canna Scotland see wha yetCanna see the Infinite\".There is not the slightest sign of the infinite in this document—it is all far too definite already. We have to have a strategy to get a strategy. The strategy should be to discuss how the Government takes a proper role in the arts, and that is not being done. Many issues are not even mentioned in the document. There is hardly any reference to education, language and local input, and only one word on broadcasting. I can imagine the embarrassment of the Administration and why it may want to avoid talking about broadcasting. The BBC regards itself as one of the biggest, most important cultural organisations in Scotland—it cannot be excluded. Broadcasting has to be included. There is nothing on sport, strangely enough. Many people would argue that to treat sport as a separate subject is daft. Sport is one of the biggest influences on our lives. We should not be dividing those influences; we should be looking at being inclusive as we go forward. The worst thing about this document is that, by its very existence, a national cultural strategy will exclude people—it is a sort of five-year plan for the arts. We need an approach that includes people. Before we go ahead, I would like some thought to be given to that problem. The Executive will come up with a plan next year, and no doubt there will be many words about consultation. No doubt the Executive will tell us that people are responding only when the consultation periods are over, and things of that nature. The reality is that the strategy is going to exclude people. It is also going to use a methodology that says nothing about anarchy and the need to have diversity of opinion. Unfortunately, it is going to be a new Labour approach to cultural strategy, and that is the last thing that Scotland needs. There are many good things happening in Scotland across the spectrum of culture, the arts and the built heritage. I have called for a review of the Scottish Arts Council—which Sam Galbraith has refused—not because I do not think that good things are happening in the Arts Council. Many good things are happening: crafts, traditional music and excellence in support for publishing. There is a wonderful new scheme for novels. Books such as \"The Voice of the Bard\", by Tim Neat with Dr John MacInnes—I have a copy here—were published in the past few days with the support of the Arts Council. There are excellent things happening, but the structure puts people off applying and is unnecessarily bureaucratic. Scottish Screen is doing great work. Its presentation to the Education, Culture and Sport Committee last week was excellent. Many artists are achieving things in Scotland. We want to find a proper way of supporting them, opening what they do to others and infecting others with a sense of creative purpose. We do not want to define a national strategy that can be set on a shelf and which—by definition—will exclude. I welcome this debate because there is a way forward. The way forward would have been to have had a proper consultation before the document was published. Although that has not been done, there is still time for the Executive to consult the other parties to establish whether we can come to a common mind on encouraging Scottish culture. Would that not be a great achievement? We could encourage people to be touched, opened up and changed. That is certainly the purpose of the Scottish Parliament—no matter whether it is devolved or, as I hope it will be, independent. Change in Scotland can be achieved to give people new life and new hope but, reading this document, I fear terribly that that is not the direction in which we are going. We are closing things down and that is not what should happen. What does culture mean to people? In the middle of the document is a quotation from George Campbell Hay:\"Fad na bliadhna rè gach ràitheGach la's gach ciaradh dhomhIs e Alba nan Gall ‘s nan GàidhealIs gàire, is blàths is beatha dhomh\".In another language, that means:\"All year long each season throughEach day and each fall of dusk for meIt is Scotland, Highland and LowlandThat is laughter and warmth and life for me\".That is what culture in all its aspects is about. It is laughter and warmth and life. It is neither a five- year plan nor something for control freaks. If only I felt a touch of laughter, warmth and life in this document, I would be more confident that the strategy on which the Executive has set out will be successful. The Executive does not have to rush ahead; it could stop and think again. If it rushes ahead now, it will not produce the laughter, warmth and life that Scotland can have in its new democracy.", "EditedTextHTML": "Your propriety as regards the names of parties was never questioned, Sir David.

I welcome this debate. The opportunity to discuss cultural matters is an example of why there should be an effective Parliament in Scotland. I have never been a member of the Westminster Parliament but, as I am sure the minister will confirm, the discussion of Scottish culture could never be central to the work of Westminster—that is not a criticism—although it can be central to our work.

I give a broad welcome to the Government's proposal, as culture is a subject on which there could be bipartisan support. I hope that that will develop. However, I am critical of this motion and lodged an amendment, which, unfortunately, was not called for debate. One of the difficulties I found in trying to amend the motion was its anodyne nature. Another difficulty was the reference— buried in the middle—to the national cultural strategy. There are many areas of cultural policy in which the Scottish National party would want to work with the Administration, but the national cultural strategy presents difficulties, on which I will concentrate today.

The Government's document is stylistically attractive but, as we will discover during this debate, lacking in substance. It opens with a quotation from the partnership agreement document, which the Government seems to believe is a work of art—it is certainly a work of fiction. It says:

\"We believe that arts and culture have a central role in shaping a sense of community and civic pride in the new Scotland.\"

None of us would have any difficulty in endorsing that. We believe that arts and culture are central to our lives. Another quotation in this document, however, is even more accurate. It is from A L Kennedy, speaking in the Poets' Parliament. She says:

\"I think Scottish writing has contributed to the moves that set up a Scottish parliament, but it did that by being nonaligned and anarchic and critical and all the things it is and I hope will remain\".

The important nature of cultural activity of all sorts is that it should be anarchic, critical, nonaligned and exciting. Anybody who has been in Edinburgh in recent weeks will have found that even this douce city, which can be grey in the heart of winter, has its existence touched, transformed, shaken and enlightened by the intense application of the arts—even if some weeks ago the First Minister called some of the performances \"fair hellish\".

There is an enormous range of activity apart from the festival: the fringe, the television festival, the film festival, the book festival and a range of other activities. An early step that the minister might take would be to persuade the festival authorities that it is fundamentally daft to have a festival continuing without a fringe and that the festival period should be intensified, not diluted.

Creativity and culture should touch our national life. It should touch everyone because everyone can be transformed, shaken, enlightened and excited by creativity and everyone is creative. The real question in a cultural policy, therefore—and I do not want to talk about strategy—is what a Government can do to make that happen. What is

the Government's proper role? Its proper role is to encourage and support excellence, diversity, creativity and inclusion—those are all things that a Government must aim for. How is that to be done? It is to be done by consultation, discussion and financial support.

The question we have to ask of this strategy is: will it achieve its aims? I have to say that—at the moment, with the jury out—I, like many people, have severe doubts. The strategy is off to a bad start, because the right way of starting the search for the answer to those questions would have been to consult the other parties in the Parliament before the document was published.

For example, I am worried about the composition of the focus group—and about focus groups in the arts. I am sure that many of the people are well qualified, but the group does not seem to be particularly inclusive. If there had been an attempt to consult the other parties, we might have agreed on how we could contribute to the process.

So here is the document, fully formed. Indeed, the document is almost ironic, because although it contains Scottish Office prose, it also contains the most wonderful pearls—not written by the Scottish Office, of course. One of those pearls is this superb quote from Hugh MacDiarmid:

\"He canna Scotland see wha yet

Canna see the Infinite\".

There is not the slightest sign of the infinite in this document—it is all far too definite already. We have to have a strategy to get a strategy. The strategy should be to discuss how the Government takes a proper role in the arts, and that is not being done.

Many issues are not even mentioned in the document. There is hardly any reference to education, language and local input, and only one word on broadcasting. I can imagine the embarrassment of the Administration and why it may want to avoid talking about broadcasting. The BBC regards itself as one of the biggest, most important cultural organisations in Scotland—it cannot be excluded. Broadcasting has to be included.

There is nothing on sport, strangely enough. Many people would argue that to treat sport as a separate subject is daft. Sport is one of the biggest influences on our lives. We should not be dividing those influences; we should be looking at being inclusive as we go forward.

The worst thing about this document is that, by its very existence, a national cultural strategy will exclude people—it is a sort of five-year plan for the arts. We need an approach that includes people. Before we go ahead, I would like some thought to be given to that problem.

The Executive will come up with a plan next year, and no doubt there will be many words about consultation. No doubt the Executive will tell us that people are responding only when the consultation periods are over, and things of that nature. The reality is that the strategy is going to exclude people. It is also going to use a methodology that says nothing about anarchy and the need to have diversity of opinion. Unfortunately, it is going to be a new Labour approach to cultural strategy, and that is the last thing that Scotland needs.

There are many good things happening in Scotland across the spectrum of culture, the arts and the built heritage. I have called for a review of the Scottish Arts Council—which Sam Galbraith has refused—not because I do not think that good things are happening in the Arts Council. Many good things are happening: crafts, traditional music and excellence in support for publishing. There is a wonderful new scheme for novels. Books such as \"The Voice of the Bard\", by Tim Neat with Dr John MacInnes—I have a copy here—were published in the past few days with the support of the Arts Council. There are excellent things happening, but the structure puts people off applying and is unnecessarily bureaucratic. Scottish Screen is doing great work. Its presentation to the Education, Culture and Sport Committee last week was excellent. Many artists are achieving things in Scotland. We want to find a proper way of supporting them, opening what they do to others and infecting others with a sense of creative purpose. We do not want to define a national strategy that can be set on a shelf and which—by definition—will exclude.

I welcome this debate because there is a way forward. The way forward would have been to have had a proper consultation before the document was published. Although that has not been done, there is still time for the Executive to consult the other parties to establish whether we can come to a common mind on encouraging Scottish culture. Would that not be a great achievement? We could encourage people to be touched, opened up and changed.

That is certainly the purpose of the Scottish Parliament—no matter whether it is devolved or, as I hope it will be, independent. Change in Scotland can be achieved to give people new life and new hope but, reading this document, I fear terribly that that is not the direction in which we are going. We are closing things down and that is not what should happen.

What does culture mean to people? In the middle of the document is a quotation from

George Campbell Hay:

\"Fad na bliadhna rè gach ràithe

Gach la's gach ciaradh dhomh

Is e Alba nan Gall ‘s nan Gàidheal

Is gàire, is blàths is beatha dhomh\".

In another language, that means:

\"All year long each season through

Each day and each fall of dusk for me

It is Scotland, Highland and Lowland

That is laughter and warmth and life for me\".

That is what culture in all its aspects is about. It is laughter and warmth and life. It is neither a five- year plan nor something for control freaks. If only I felt a touch of laughter, warmth and life in this document, I would be more confident that the strategy on which the Executive has set out will be successful. The Executive does not have to rush ahead; it could stop and think again. If it rushes ahead now, it will not produce the laughter, warmth and life that Scotland can have in its new democracy.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C706603", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Cultural Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26753, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 581.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 581.0, "ID": 26753, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ms Patricia Ferguson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 596.0, "ContributionID": 706603, "EditedText": "Before calling Mr Brian Monteith to open for the Scottish Conservative and Unionist party, I remind members that they should indicate that they wish to speak by pressing the appropriate button.", "EditedTextHTML": "Before calling Mr Brian Monteith to open for the Scottish Conservative and Unionist party, I remind members that they should indicate that they wish to speak by pressing the appropriate button.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C706607", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Cultural Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26753, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 581.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 581.0, "ID": 26753, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 605.0, "ContributionID": 706607, "EditedText": "Thank you, Mr Monteith. Before I open up the debate, I advise members that the allocated time for each contribution is four minutes. Several members want to speak, so they should stick to the time limit.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you, Mr Monteith. Before I open up the debate, I advise members that the allocated time for each contribution is four minutes. Several members want to speak, so they should stick to the time limit.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1854E38P164C706610", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Cultural Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26753, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 581.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 581.0, "ID": 26753, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Godman, Trish", "ID": 1854, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Renfrewshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Trish Godman", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Trish Godman (West Renfrewshire) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 614.0, "ContributionID": 706610, "EditedText": "I represent a village called Kilbarchan, which is known locally as an artists' village. Last Saturday, I spent many happy hours at the village's annual arts club show. Duncan McNeil is not here, but he and I have both been at the Greenock arts club's show. I can go to those shows and appreciate the art but, as they say, \"Masel, ah cannae actually draw.\" I remember when I was at school, painting what I thought was a wonderful picture of a storm at sea, and the teacher coming up to me and saying that he was going to distemper his living room at the weekend and perhaps it would be a good idea if I helped him. But although I cannot draw, I can appreciate what goes on in those local arts clubs. I want to talk about what I see as the link between the cultural strategy and the social inclusion agenda. I can think of the women from Easterhouse who write poetry about what it is like to live there, to be unemployed and to suffer poverty and ill health. Their efforts are partly funded by City of Glasgow Council. When we read poems written by drug addicts, recovering addicts and their families, we feel what they are going through. I can think of a project funded by Inverclyde Council, for teenagers who are referred by the courts because they are first offenders. They write, produce and act in plays that address local issues such as drugs, unemployment and domestic violence. Those enthusiastic and talented young people are supported by their families and by their peer group, who turn up, applaud and shout with great gusto when they see their pals on the stage. This morning, we debated the changes in the Mental Health (Scotland) Act 1984. I worked for a long time in a psychiatric unit, where the patients were encouraged to write, draw and act whenever possible. It was a moving experience to read poetry written by patients who were trying to gain an insight into the horrors and agonies of being mentally ill. We must encourage the gamut of arts in schools and local communities. There is a wealth of talent out there, which lies mostly untapped. As the minister said, the cultural strategy should be for everyone. We should not only encourage community talent in continuing such events as the successful Edinburgh fringe festival, but encourage people to support community arts. The cultural strategy for Scotland is not only about national galleries, large productions and shows; it is about giving local people and communities the opportunity to express their feelings and aspirations through the arts. I was delighted to hear the minister's commitment to social inclusion in the strategy. That is important, because that is what the issue is about.", "EditedTextHTML": "I represent a village called Kilbarchan, which is known locally as an artists' village. Last Saturday, I spent many happy hours at the village's annual arts club show. Duncan McNeil is not here, but he and I have both been at the Greenock arts club's show. I can go to those shows and appreciate the art but, as they say, \"Masel, ah cannae actually draw.\" I remember when I was at school, painting what I thought was a wonderful picture of a storm at sea, and the teacher coming up to me and saying that he was going to distemper his living room at the weekend and perhaps it would be a good idea if I helped him. But although I cannot draw, I can appreciate what goes on in those local arts clubs.

I want to talk about what I see as the link between the cultural strategy and the social inclusion agenda. I can think of the women from Easterhouse who write poetry about what it is like to live there, to be unemployed and to suffer poverty and ill health. Their efforts are partly funded by City of Glasgow Council. When we read poems written by drug addicts, recovering addicts and their families, we feel what they are going through. I can think of a project funded by Inverclyde Council, for teenagers who are referred by the courts because they are first offenders. They write, produce and act in plays that address local issues such as drugs, unemployment and domestic violence. Those enthusiastic and talented young people are supported by their families and by their peer group, who turn up, applaud and shout with great gusto when they see their pals on the stage.

This morning, we debated the changes in the Mental Health (Scotland) Act 1984. I worked for a long time in a psychiatric unit, where the patients were encouraged to write, draw and act whenever possible. It was a moving experience to read poetry written by patients who were trying to gain an insight into the horrors and agonies of being mentally ill. We must encourage the gamut of arts in schools and local communities. There is a wealth of talent out there, which lies mostly untapped.

As the minister said, the cultural strategy should be for everyone. We should not only encourage community talent in continuing such events as the successful Edinburgh fringe festival, but encourage people to support community arts. The cultural strategy for Scotland is not only about national galleries, large productions and shows; it is about giving local people and communities the opportunity to express their feelings and aspirations through the arts. I was delighted to hear the minister's commitment to social inclusion in the strategy. That is important, because that is what the issue is about.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2188E70P92C706617", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Cultural Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26753, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 581.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 581.0, "ID": 26753, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harper, Robin", "ID": 2188, "PartyName": "Scottish Green Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Green", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robin Harper", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robin Harper (Lothians) (Green): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 633.0, "ContributionID": 706617, "EditedText": "My interests in this debate are registered in the proper place. I compliment Mike Russell on the excellent and eloquent way in which he expressed his concerns. There is an art form that is capable of touching and transforming and enlightening us. It is anarchic and critical and non-aligned. I am, of course, talking about theatre, but in particular about travelling theatre companies, which bridge the gap between professional theatre and the community that Elaine Murray mentioned. Travelling theatre takes professional acting into the community. As Lloyd Quinan pointed out, the total number of actors employed in Scotland has fallen by 50 per cent during the past two years—since the Labour Government was elected. How has it happened? How is the problem addressed by the document that is before us? There has been a positive efflorescence of administrative posts in the publicly subsidised sector. I refute what Brian Monteith said when he suggested that the arts do not need subsidising. He seemed to be giving a historical perspective to show that the arts survived without subsidy in the past. That is completely incorrect. We would not have much of the music and much of the theatre that we have today—our Mozart and our Beethoven—without the private and public subsidies available in previous centuries. I am not convinced of the wisdom of going all- out for a national theatre now. I am speaking for a more diverse form of theatrical excellence in Scotland. I plead with the Executive and with all those involved in this debate to support all kinds of theatre in Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "My interests in this debate are registered in the proper place.

I compliment Mike Russell on the excellent and eloquent way in which he expressed his concerns. There is an art form that is capable of touching and transforming and enlightening us. It is anarchic and critical and non-aligned. I am, of course, talking about theatre, but in particular about travelling theatre companies, which bridge the gap between professional theatre and the community that Elaine Murray mentioned. Travelling theatre takes professional acting into the community.

As Lloyd Quinan pointed out, the total number of actors employed in Scotland has fallen by 50 per cent during the past two years—since the Labour Government was elected. How has it happened? How is the problem addressed by the document that is before us? There has been a positive efflorescence of administrative posts in the publicly subsidised sector. I refute what Brian Monteith said when he suggested that the arts do not need subsidising. He seemed to be giving a historical perspective to show that the arts survived without subsidy in the past. That is completely incorrect. We would not have much of the music and much of the theatre that we have today—our Mozart and our Beethoven—without the private and public subsidies available in previous centuries.

I am not convinced of the wisdom of going all- out for a national theatre now. I am speaking for a more diverse form of theatrical excellence in Scotland. I plead with the Executive and with all those involved in this debate to support all kinds of theatre in Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1962E35P56C706619", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Cultural Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26753, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 581.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 581.0, "ID": 26753, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mundell, David", "ID": 1962, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Mundell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David Mundell (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 639.0, "ContributionID": 706619, "EditedText": "I agree with what Rhona Brankin said in the introduction to the \"Celebrating Scotland\" document: \"Scotland's culture belongs to all the people in Scotland.\"I note the compulsory i word, inclusive, in her strategy, but I find the tone of the document a little elitist, presupposing the answer to the question at the top of her list, \"What does culture mean to you?\" Culture does not exactly mean what is on the list given in her introduction: films, plays, museums, galleries, libraries, historic buildings and architecture. It is the way in which we live our lives in our communities, and the traditions and activities that underpin those communities. As we are all giving examples from our diaries, I will let members into what I was doing on Saturday. I attended an agricultural show in Moffat, in Dumfriesshire, where local people were displaying their sheep, cattle, horses and hens. A home industry section displayed baking, knitting and home painting—not the politically correct items that are often trotted out these days. There was also the usual home craftwork. The level of support at that event, and at shows across Scotland this summer, is a great tribute to people in farming communities. The number of entries have generally been up and the standard has never been higher, despite the appalling crisis which people face in the sheep and dairy industries. This weekend, there is another show in the tiny village of Bentpath, in Eskdale, where people will come from miles around for terrier racing and fell running, although I will be participating in neither. Smaller shows are happening in one-room village halls throughout Scotland, yet no real reference is made to them in this document. Nevertheless, that is the culture of Scotland that I recognise. In the document, Hugh MacDiarmid is quoted— a famous Langholm man, and Dr Murray has already alluded to Langholm. We must recognise that in the town of Langholm the most important cultural event is the annual common riding. That is the case in many border communities. The medium that carries culture throughout Scotland's diverse communities is not always—unfortunately for Michael Fry—The Herald. It is much more likely to be the Annandale Herald. In Langholm, it is the wonderful Eskdale and Liddlesdale Advertiser. Try as Elaine Murray and I might to be on the front page, we are invariable outdone by the activities of the local drama group or the rugby club. We must be absolutely clear that we value such activities as part of our culture. As Iain Gray referred yesterday to the fact that health underpins so many aspects of our life, so culture is interwoven as well. The end of sheep farming on our hills would not just be a personal and economic tragedy; it would undermine Scotland's rich and diverse culture. Many people in rural communities throughout Scotland have a genuine fear that this Government is not concerned about their culture and way of life. I do not think that this document goes any way to allay those fears, but I hope sincerely that the consultation process will. The Government must promote more understanding between town and country areas. We must foster that understanding of different cultures, different ways of doing things, and—dare I say it—different pastimes. We must have a strategy for culture that has the promotion of that understanding of all Scotland's cultures at its heart. I conclude with a specific plea to give preeminence in Scotland to an individual who genuinely has global potential. I misread Rhona Brankin's introduction, and thought that he had been on her focus group, but as he had been dead for 203 years I do not think that Robert Burns could have contributed to that. Burns is one of Scotland's pre-eminent assets. England does not have a Shakespeare day, but tourists visit Stratford-upon-Avon and spend money in that area to a degree that people in Ayrshire and Dumfries and Galloway could only envy. Let us not only put Burns at the heart of our culture in Scotland, but build on the economic potential that that could bring to the south-west of Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "I agree with what Rhona Brankin said in the introduction to the \"Celebrating Scotland\" document:

\"Scotland's culture belongs to all the people in Scotland.\"

I note the compulsory i word, inclusive, in her strategy, but I find the tone of the document a little elitist, presupposing the answer to the question at the top of her list, \"What does culture mean to you?\" Culture does not exactly mean what is on the list given in her introduction: films, plays, museums, galleries, libraries, historic buildings

and architecture. It is the way in which we live our lives in our communities, and the traditions and activities that underpin those communities.

As we are all giving examples from our diaries, I will let members into what I was doing on Saturday. I attended an agricultural show in Moffat, in Dumfriesshire, where local people were displaying their sheep, cattle, horses and hens. A home industry section displayed baking, knitting and home painting—not the politically correct items that are often trotted out these days. There was also the usual home craftwork.

The level of support at that event, and at shows across Scotland this summer, is a great tribute to people in farming communities. The number of entries have generally been up and the standard has never been higher, despite the appalling crisis which people face in the sheep and dairy industries.

This weekend, there is another show in the tiny village of Bentpath, in Eskdale, where people will come from miles around for terrier racing and fell running, although I will be participating in neither. Smaller shows are happening in one-room village halls throughout Scotland, yet no real reference is made to them in this document. Nevertheless, that is the culture of Scotland that I recognise.

In the document, Hugh MacDiarmid is quoted— a famous Langholm man, and Dr Murray has already alluded to Langholm. We must recognise that in the town of Langholm the most important cultural event is the annual common riding. That is the case in many border communities. The medium that carries culture throughout Scotland's diverse communities is not always—unfortunately for Michael Fry—The Herald. It is much more likely to be the Annandale Herald. In Langholm, it is the wonderful Eskdale and Liddlesdale Advertiser. Try as Elaine Murray and I might to be on the front page, we are invariable outdone by the activities of the local drama group or the rugby club. We must be absolutely clear that we value such activities as part of our culture. As Iain Gray referred yesterday to the fact that health underpins so many aspects of our life, so culture is interwoven as well. The end of sheep farming on our hills would not just be a personal and economic tragedy; it would undermine Scotland's rich and diverse culture.

Many people in rural communities throughout Scotland have a genuine fear that this Government is not concerned about their culture and way of life. I do not think that this document goes any way to allay those fears, but I hope sincerely that the consultation process will. The Government must promote more understanding between town and country areas. We must foster that understanding of different cultures, different ways of doing things, and—dare I say it—different pastimes. We must have a strategy for culture that has the promotion of that understanding of all Scotland's cultures at its heart.

I conclude with a specific plea to give preeminence in Scotland to an individual who genuinely has global potential. I misread Rhona Brankin's introduction, and thought that he had been on her focus group, but as he had been dead for 203 years I do not think that Robert Burns could have contributed to that. Burns is one of Scotland's pre-eminent assets. England does not have a Shakespeare day, but tourists visit Stratford-upon-Avon and spend money in that area to a degree that people in Ayrshire and Dumfries and Galloway could only envy. Let us not only put Burns at the heart of our culture in Scotland, but build on the economic potential that that could bring to the south-west of Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1837E108P186C706621", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Cultural Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26753, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 581.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 581.0, "ID": 26753, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mulligan, Mary", "ID": 1837, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Linlithgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Mulligan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Mary Mulligan (Linlithgow) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 645.0, "ContributionID": 706621, "EditedText": "All of us agree that Scotland has a distinct and rich cultural identity. At this stage in Scotland's political development and as we approach the new millennium it is apt for us to take a look at our cultural strategy. In answer to the points that Mike Russell made, I do not see this as a static document but as a tool to show where Scotland's culture is and to give pointers to how it could or should be developed in the future. There was discussion prior to the establishment of a Scottish Parliament on how culture should be represented. The fact that a cabinet minister and a junior minister have responsibility for it shows the commitment of the Executive. The fact that the Parliament has established the Education, Culture and Sport Committee shows how we value our culture and recognise the importance that education can play in taking it forward. I would like to concentrate on the mechanisms of developing our culture and on education and the Scottish Arts Council in particular. Education very clearly provides a means for arts to be introduced to or further developed in young people's lives. I am not suggesting that teachers and schools will be the only influence. I recognise the importance of community influence. For many young people who live with disadvantage, schools can provide opportunity and enlightenment. It is for that reason that I have some concerns about the way in which some schools that have found their budgets ever decreasing have tried to drop arts and sports from the curriculum. I believe that as a Parliament we should be making it very clear to the education profession that the appreciation and practice of the arts has so many benefits for the learning process that they should not be so easily lost. In my constituency, Linlithgow, a number of children and young people attend West Lothian Youth Theatre, a very productive and enthusiastic company. I doubt that all of them will follow in the footsteps of Ewan McGregor or Sean Connery—I do not doubt their skills, but the opportunity might not be there—but they are, through taking part, learning confidence, teamwork and the ability to think beyond the more obvious premise. Those are very important life skills and should be part of a fully rounded education. My concern is about people's access to the arts and culture, which brings me to the role of the Scottish Arts Council. Each year it makes project funds available through a wide range of schemes to individual artists and to arts organisations throughout Scotland. The SAC has also assumed responsibility for distributing a share of the National Lottery funds for the benefit of the arts in Scotland. The National Lottery Act 1998 requires the SAC to produce a strategy explaining its priorities for distributing those funds. I raise that point because the role of the SAC is to emphasise the importance of resources being made available to all areas of the arts. The SAC's report \"Scottish Arts in the 21st Century\" highlights the need to get rid of unnecessary distinctions between so-called high arts and popular culture, between the amateur and the professional and between art forms that celebrate diversity and those that create false barriers.", "EditedTextHTML": "All of us agree that Scotland has a distinct and rich cultural identity. At this stage in Scotland's political development and as we approach the new millennium it is apt for us to take a look at our cultural strategy. In answer to the points that Mike Russell made, I do not see this as a static document but as a tool to show where Scotland's culture is and to give pointers to how it could or should be developed in the future. There was discussion prior to the establishment of a Scottish Parliament on how culture should be represented. The fact that a cabinet minister and a junior minister have responsibility for it shows the commitment of the Executive. The fact that the Parliament has established the Education, Culture and Sport Committee shows how we value our culture and recognise the importance that education can play in taking it forward.

I would like to concentrate on the mechanisms of developing our culture and on education and the Scottish Arts Council in particular. Education very clearly provides a means for arts to be introduced to or further developed in young people's lives. I am not suggesting that teachers and schools will be the only influence. I recognise the importance of community influence. For many young people who live with disadvantage, schools can provide opportunity and enlightenment. It is for that reason that I have some concerns about the way in which some schools that have found their budgets ever decreasing have tried to drop arts and sports from the curriculum. I believe that as a Parliament we should be making it very clear to the education profession that the appreciation and practice of the arts has so many benefits for the learning process that they should not be so easily lost.

In my constituency, Linlithgow, a number of children and young people attend West Lothian Youth Theatre, a very productive and enthusiastic company. I doubt that all of them will follow in the footsteps of Ewan McGregor or Sean Connery—I do not doubt their skills, but the opportunity might not be there—but they are, through taking part, learning confidence, teamwork and the ability to think beyond the more obvious premise. Those are very important life skills and should be part of a fully rounded education.

My concern is about people's access to the arts and culture, which brings me to the role of the Scottish Arts Council. Each year it makes project funds available through a wide range of schemes to individual artists and to arts organisations throughout Scotland. The SAC has also assumed responsibility for distributing a share of the National Lottery funds for the benefit of the arts in Scotland. The National Lottery Act 1998 requires the SAC to produce a strategy explaining its priorities for distributing those funds. I raise that point because the role of the SAC is to emphasise the importance of resources being made available to all areas of the arts.

The SAC's report \"Scottish Arts in the 21st Century\" highlights the need to get rid of unnecessary distinctions between so-called high arts and popular culture, between the amateur and the professional and between art forms that celebrate diversity and those that create false barriers.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1837E108P186C706623", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Cultural Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26753, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 581.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 581.0, "ID": 26753, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mulligan, Mary", "ID": 1837, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Linlithgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Mulligan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Mulligan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 649.0, "ContributionID": 706623, "EditedText": "I do not want to suggest that the arts and culture can be furthered only by injections of large sums of money. Practically, we have to acknowledge that the moneys that are available have to be used for the widest possible access. In conclusion, a cultural strategy for Scotland should belong to all the people of Scotland. Access to the arts and our heritage can be assisted by education and by adequate and sensitive funding.", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not want to suggest that the arts and culture can be furthered only by injections of large sums of money. Practically, we have to acknowledge that the moneys that are available have to be used for the widest possible access.

In conclusion, a cultural strategy for Scotland should belong to all the people of Scotland. Access to the arts and our heritage can be assisted by education and by adequate and sensitive funding.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1862E99P179C706630", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Cultural Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26753, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 581.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 581.0, "ID": 26753, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Brankin, Rhona", "ID": 1862, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Midlothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Culture and Sport", "SpeakerName": "Rhona Brankin", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Rhona Brankin: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 667.0, "ContributionID": 706630, "EditedText": "Ian Welsh and Elaine Murray mentioned the important role of local authorities. Local authorities have to be key partners in this strategy. We already spend more than £200 million annually on culture and leisure, and local authorities are key partners in delivering social inclusion. I come now to Lloyd Quinan's comments. We are happy to talk to the producers, and Lloyd talks about the unions that are involved. Yes, I will be holding meetings with those unions—it is important that we speak to them. The best way of supporting artists is to support the creative industries. That is where we will be creating jobs, which will be a key plank of any cultural strategy. However, practitioners are important and we must never lose sight of the fact that a national cultural strategy is for the people of Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "Ian Welsh and Elaine Murray mentioned the important role of local authorities. Local authorities have to be key partners in this strategy. We already spend more than £200 million annually on culture and leisure, and local authorities are key partners in delivering social inclusion.

I come now to Lloyd Quinan's comments. We are happy to talk to the producers, and Lloyd talks about the unions that are involved. Yes, I will be holding meetings with those unions—it is important that we speak to them. The best way of supporting artists is to support the creative industries. That is where we will be creating jobs, which will be a key plank of any cultural strategy. However, practitioners are important and we must never lose sight of the fact that a national cultural strategy is for the people of Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C706631", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Cultural Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26753, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 581.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 581.0, "ID": 26753, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 669.0, "ContributionID": 706631, "EditedText": "Will Ms Brankin give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Ms Brankin give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1862E99P179C706634", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Cultural Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26753, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 581.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 581.0, "ID": 26753, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Brankin, Rhona", "ID": 1862, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Midlothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Culture and Sport", "SpeakerName": "Rhona Brankin", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Rhona Brankin: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 675.0, "ContributionID": 706634, "EditedText": "Thank you. I am delighted to have stimulated so much interest. I agree with Robin Harper. I have worked in the Scottish theatre sector and recognise its importance. I will be having discussions with that sector. Mr Monteith mentioned a national theatre for Scotland. I realise that there are many views about that, which will provide for a heated debate. We are not afraid of having that debate; indeed, we will have it during the consultation. welcome Des McNulty's contribution on architecture and social inclusion. I assure him that we intend to build on Scotland's—and indeed Glasgow's—achievements in architecture. We see community involvement as a key element of any national policy on architecture. Mr Mundell talked about the definition of culture. We could spend a month talking about that. As somebody who has lived in a rural area for 25 years and has competed in the Black isle show on many occasions, let me tell members that the culture of our rural communities is a central plank of any policy on the rural economy. That is a perfect example of why culture needs to get into other areas of government, and I thank Mr Mundell for raising the matter. Having heard Cathy Peattie sing traditional Scottish songs on many occasions, I was sorry that she could not sing today. I believe that it is against standing orders to sing in the chamber, which is a great pity, as it would have been nice to hear her. We must be inclusive. A national cultural strategy is not for the great and the good; it is for everybody in Scotland. I agree with Irene McGugan that education is central to any cultural strategy. That is why it is right that culture and education are going hand in hand. The main aim of the consultation process is to establish a set of clear, understandable objectives. I hope that members will talk to people in local papers and broadcasting, and to people in their communities, whether in the performing arts or in community arts projects. Members know the people at home and in their communities, and should get out and talk to them. I ask people in the media to do that as well. They should tell people about our consultation document and encourage them to tell their friends and families about it. Above all, the media should urge people to think about the consultation document and send their responses to the Scottish Executive. With the help of all members and all people in Scotland, we can deliver a cultural strategy that is fit for Scotland in the third millennium.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you. I am delighted to have stimulated so much interest.

I agree with Robin Harper. I have worked in the Scottish theatre sector and recognise its importance. I will be having discussions with that sector.

Mr Monteith mentioned a national theatre for Scotland. I realise that there are many views about that, which will provide for a heated debate. We are not afraid of having that debate; indeed, we will have it during the consultation. welcome Des McNulty's contribution on architecture and social inclusion. I assure him that we intend to build on Scotland's—and indeed

Glasgow's—achievements in architecture. We see community involvement as a key element of any national policy on architecture.

Mr Mundell talked about the definition of culture. We could spend a month talking about that. As somebody who has lived in a rural area for 25 years and has competed in the Black isle show on many occasions, let me tell members that the culture of our rural communities is a central plank of any policy on the rural economy. That is a perfect example of why culture needs to get into other areas of government, and I thank Mr Mundell for raising the matter.

Having heard Cathy Peattie sing traditional Scottish songs on many occasions, I was sorry that she could not sing today. I believe that it is against standing orders to sing in the chamber, which is a great pity, as it would have been nice to hear her.

We must be inclusive. A national cultural strategy is not for the great and the good; it is for everybody in Scotland.

I agree with Irene McGugan that education is central to any cultural strategy. That is why it is right that culture and education are going hand in hand.

The main aim of the consultation process is to establish a set of clear, understandable objectives. I hope that members will talk to people in local papers and broadcasting, and to people in their communities, whether in the performing arts or in community arts projects. Members know the people at home and in their communities, and should get out and talk to them.

I ask people in the media to do that as well. They should tell people about our consultation document and encourage them to tell their friends and families about it. Above all, the media should urge people to think about the consultation document and send their responses to the Scottish Executive. With the help of all members and all people in Scotland, we can deliver a cultural strategy that is fit for Scotland in the third millennium.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706635", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Cultural Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26753, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 581.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 581.0, "ID": 26753, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 677.0, "ContributionID": 706635, "EditedText": "Before we move to decision time, I inform the chamber that the clerks have been able to provide the result of this morning's vote on motion S1M-110, on the timetabling of the Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill, which we had to take on a show of hands. The result of the vote was as follows: For 107, Against 2, Abstentions 0.", "EditedTextHTML": "Before we move to decision time, I inform the chamber that the clerks have been able to provide the result of this morning's vote on motion S1M-110, on the timetabling of the Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill, which we had to take on a show of hands. The result of the vote was as follows: For 107, Against 2, Abstentions 0.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706638", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26754, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 679.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 679.0, "ID": 26754, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 685.0, "ContributionID": 706638, "EditedText": "There will be a division.", "EditedTextHTML": "There will be a division.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706645", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Domestic Violence", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26755, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 692.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 692.0, "ID": 26755, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 696.0, "ContributionID": 706645, "EditedText": "That the Parliament notes the Work Plan drawn up by the Scottish Partnership on domestic violence which has as part of its remit an examination of the experience of women in rural areas; calls for swift consideration to be given to improving the safety of women at risk, and supports the work carried out in this field by Women's Aid and other organisations in the Highlands and Islands.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament notes the Work Plan drawn up by the Scottish Partnership on domestic violence which has as part of its remit an examination of the experience of women in rural areas; calls for swift consideration to be given to improving the safety of women at risk, and supports the work carried out in this field by Women's Aid and other organisations in the Highlands and Islands.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706644", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Domestic Violence", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26755, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 692.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 692.0, "ID": 26755, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 695.0, "ContributionID": 706644, "EditedText": "Motion debated,", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion debated,

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706655", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Domestic Violence", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26755, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 692.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 692.0, "ID": 26755, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 718.0, "ContributionID": 706655, "EditedText": "That the meeting be extended by 30 minutes.—Ms Curran.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the meeting be extended by 30 minutes.—[Ms Curran.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2122E6P19C706649", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Domestic Violence", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26755, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 692.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 692.0, "ID": 26755, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay", "ID": 2122, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lyndsay McIntosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Lyndsay McIntosh (Central Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 706.0, "ContributionID": 706649, "EditedText": "I am delighted to be able to speak in today's members' business debate on domestic violence. I am grateful to Maureen Macmillan for highlighting the work plan drawn up by the Scottish Partnership on Domestic Violence, particularly for rural areas. Living in and representing central Scotland, I have to say that the problem of domestic violence still pervades the central belt. As colleagues inform me, rural areas in the Borders and the south of Scotland suffer acute problems that are similar to those of the Highlands and Islands. I am thinking particularly of tied housing—the Matrimonial Homes Acts tie the house so that a woman cannot put her husband out. I am thinking of access to services. As has already been said, sometimes people have to travel 100 miles to the nearest public telephone to call for assistance—a woman who has suffered domestic violence cannot chap a neighbour's door. Geographical isolation, the lack of housing stock, people's attitudes and—sometimes—the response of the police, can all be problems. I should add a note of caution. Domestic violence—as Dr Ewing mentioned—is not just men abusing women and children. A number of women—admittedly a small number—harry and verbally and physically abuse men. It would be wrong not to admit that. Before I became a member of this Parliament, I sat on the bench in my district court, and I chaired the justices training sub-committee. Part of the training was to go out and do a tour of duty with the local police force—not just on traffic duty when we got to go in the fast cars, but on night duty. Going out and seeing the way in which the police do their job is not a new idea of Ian Davidson's; it is something that we were trying to do many years ago. It would pain members to see the sights that I saw. I came upon those scenes not because women had reported violence themselves, but because neighbours had reported a disturbance, gone to the home and seen women who had been battered to a pulp. It was horrifying. I sincerely hope that this Parliament will address the issue of domestic violence, and I am grateful to Maureen for bringing it to our attention.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am delighted to be able to speak in today's members' business debate on domestic violence. I am grateful to Maureen Macmillan for highlighting the work plan drawn up by the Scottish Partnership on Domestic Violence, particularly for rural areas. Living in and representing central Scotland, I have to say that the problem of domestic violence still pervades the central belt.

As colleagues inform me, rural areas in the Borders and the south of Scotland suffer acute problems that are similar to those of the Highlands and Islands. I am thinking particularly of tied housing—the Matrimonial Homes Acts tie the house so that a woman cannot put her husband out. I am thinking of access to services. As has already been said, sometimes people have to travel 100 miles to the nearest public telephone to call for assistance—a woman who has suffered domestic violence cannot chap a neighbour's door. Geographical isolation, the lack of housing stock, people's attitudes and—sometimes—the response of the police, can all be problems.

I should add a note of caution. Domestic violence—as Dr Ewing mentioned—is not just men abusing women and children. A number of women—admittedly a small number—harry and verbally and physically abuse men. It would be wrong not to admit that.

Before I became a member of this Parliament, I sat on the bench in my district court, and I chaired the justices training sub-committee. Part of the training was to go out and do a tour of duty with the local police force—not just on traffic duty when we got to go in the fast cars, but on night duty. Going out and seeing the way in which the police do their job is not a new idea of Ian Davidson's; it is something that we were trying to do many years ago. It would pain members to see the sights that I saw. I came upon those scenes not because women had reported violence themselves, but because neighbours had reported a disturbance, gone to the home and seen women who had been battered to a pulp. It was horrifying.

I sincerely hope that this Parliament will address the issue of domestic violence, and I am grateful to Maureen for bringing it to our attention.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1850E185P354C706650", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Domestic Violence", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26755, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 692.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 692.0, "ID": 26755, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Radcliffe, Nora", "ID": 1850, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Gordon" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nora Radcliffe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nora Radcliffe (Gordon) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 709.0, "ContributionID": 706650, "EditedText": "I want to home in on one aspect of this debate—women's refuges and the way in which they are funded. I will illustrate the problem with reference to a refuge in a market town in my constituency. A letter from the manager of the refuge starts with the words: \"We would like to draw attention to the erratic way our particular refuge is funded.\" The refuge gets £22,000 in grants from the local authority, out of which it pays back to the authority nearly £11,000 in rent. The letter continues: \"Our main income has to be derived from housing benefit. This has caused serious problems for us in the past as not all families are eligible to receive this; when occupancy rates fluctuate we have to struggle to pay even the basic expenses.\" On occasion, the manager has had to wait to receive her salary until the housing benefit money came in. That is totally unacceptable. Last year, the refuge dealt with 146 contacts and accommodated 30 families including 34 children, but it had to turn away 35 families. The need is huge. There is some provision to meet that need, but it is woefully inadequate and refuges are not funded properly. There is an enormous amount of work to be done. We have to give much greater commitment to it, and somehow we have to find the money to fund refuges and to give equity of access across rural and urban areas.", "EditedTextHTML": "I want to home in on one aspect of this debate—women's refuges and the way in which they are funded. I will illustrate the problem with reference to a refuge in a market town in my constituency. A letter from the manager of the refuge starts with the words:

\"We would like to draw attention to the erratic way our particular refuge is funded.\"

The refuge gets £22,000 in grants from the local authority, out of which it pays back to the authority nearly £11,000 in rent. The letter continues:

\"Our main income has to be derived from housing benefit. This has caused serious problems for us in the past as not all families are eligible to receive this; when occupancy rates fluctuate we have to struggle to pay even the basic expenses.\"

On occasion, the manager has had to wait to receive her salary until the housing benefit money came in. That is totally unacceptable. Last year, the refuge dealt with 146 contacts and accommodated 30 families including 34 children, but it had to turn away 35 families.

The need is huge. There is some provision to meet that need, but it is woefully inadequate and refuges are not funded properly. There is an enormous amount of work to be done. We have to give much greater commitment to it, and somehow we have to find the money to fund refuges and to give equity of access across rural and urban areas.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C706651", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Domestic Violence", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26755, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 692.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 692.0, "ID": 26755, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 711.0, "ContributionID": 706651, "EditedText": "I am conscious that about 10 members wish to speak, but without a motion to extend the business, I must now go on to the concluding speeches.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am conscious that about 10 members wish to speak, but without a motion to extend the business, I must now go on to the concluding speeches.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1752E75P296C706660", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Domestic Violence", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26755, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 692.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 692.0, "ID": 26755, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jamieson, Cathy", "ID": 1752, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Cathy Jamieson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Cathy Jamieson (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 728.0, "ContributionID": 706660, "EditedText": "I welcome the fact that the motion has been lodged for debate, although it gives me no pleasure to be speaking here, as it shows how much work we have still to do. I welcome the recognition that women in rural areas have received today, particularly the recognition of the difficulties in reporting incidences of domestic violence, which is a term I prefer to the phrase \"battered women\". I also recognise the problems that people in rural areas have finding alternative accommodation. My main point relates to the effects of domestic violence and abuse on children and young people. Quite often, that kind of abuse cannot be seen written on children's faces. In a publication that is about to be produced by Scottish Women's Aid, there is a piece of writing by a child. The child wrote, \"Dad makes me angry and sad. I am sad but you can't see sad because I am smiling. I am sad inside.\" That says it all and explains children's position in relation to this issue. Information from Scottish Women's Aid suggests that as many as 100,000 children might be living with the problem of domestic abuse. Earlier, Winnie Ewing mentioned taking a pause to think about things. I would urge people to pause for a moment and reflect on the sheer scale of the impact of domestic abuse on children. We have responsibilities to those children. They are not safe or secure in their own homes, but face daily physical violence, emotional abuse or sexual abuse. How can a child concentrate on their school work when they have been up for half the night because of what has been happening in their house? How can a child concentrate on their school work when they are afraid of what is happening at home when they are not there? How can a child risk bringing their friends home from the school when they do not know what they will face or walk into? How does a child deal with the well-meaning people who ask what is wrong, when they are too embarrassed to tell? Those are the real issues that children are facing daily. How do children deal with being desperate to get away from the violence but being terrified of the consequences? They do not want to leave their home, local area, school and friends. One hundred thousand children face those issues every day—that is the scale of the problem. I want to congratulate Scottish Women's Aid and other organisations on the work that they have done throughout the years to address this issue. A long time ago, during my summer holidays from college, I regularly worked for the organisation as a play leader. I am glad to see that children's workers are now recognised as a much more necessary part of the service provided to children. I question whether the 13 full-time refuge support workers, 31 part-time workers and eight outreach workers can provide the support needed for 100,000 children. The clear message that comes through from the children's comments is that they need services in their own right. In the document that I referred to earlier, \"Young Peoples Aid\"—or \"Young People Said\" depending on how it is read—the most telling comments are the two words at the end, \"please listen.\" Listening in itself is not enough. We need to hear the voices of children and act upon them.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the fact that the motion has been lodged for debate, although it gives me no pleasure to be speaking here, as it shows how much work we have still to do.

I welcome the recognition that women in rural areas have received today, particularly the recognition of the difficulties in reporting incidences of domestic violence, which is a term I prefer to the phrase \"battered women\". I also recognise the problems that people in rural areas have finding alternative accommodation.

My main point relates to the effects of domestic violence and abuse on children and young people. Quite often, that kind of abuse cannot be seen written on children's faces. In a publication that is about to be produced by Scottish Women's Aid, there is a piece of writing by a child. The child wrote, \"Dad makes me angry and sad. I am sad but you can't see sad because I am smiling. I am sad inside.\" That says it all and explains children's position in relation to this issue.

Information from Scottish Women's Aid suggests that as many as 100,000 children might be living with the problem of domestic abuse. Earlier, Winnie Ewing mentioned taking a pause to think about things. I would urge people to pause for a moment and reflect on the sheer scale of the impact of domestic abuse on children. We have responsibilities to those children. They are not safe or secure in their own homes, but face daily physical violence, emotional abuse or sexual abuse.

How can a child concentrate on their school work when they have been up for half the night because of what has been happening in their house? How can a child concentrate on their school work when they are afraid of what is happening at home when they are not there? How can a child risk bringing their friends home from the school when they do not know what they will face or walk into? How does a child deal with the well-meaning people who ask what is wrong, when they are too embarrassed to tell? Those are the real issues that children are facing daily.

How do children deal with being desperate to get away from the violence but being terrified of the consequences? They do not want to leave their home, local area, school and friends. One

hundred thousand children face those issues every day—that is the scale of the problem.

I want to congratulate Scottish Women's Aid and other organisations on the work that they have done throughout the years to address this issue. A long time ago, during my summer holidays from college, I regularly worked for the organisation as a play leader. I am glad to see that children's workers are now recognised as a much more necessary part of the service provided to children. I question whether the 13 full-time refuge support workers, 31 part-time workers and eight outreach workers can provide the support needed for 100,000 children.

The clear message that comes through from the children's comments is that they need services in their own right. In the document that I referred to earlier, \"Young Peoples Aid\"—or \"Young People Said\" depending on how it is read—the most telling comments are the two words at the end, \"please listen.\" Listening in itself is not enough. We need to hear the voices of children and act upon them.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1768E72P274C706662", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Domestic Violence", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26755, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 692.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 692.0, "ID": 26755, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Murray, Elaine", "ID": 1768, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumfries" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Murray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Elaine Murray (Dumfries) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 734.0, "ContributionID": 706662, "EditedText": "I too wish to congratulate Maureen on securing a debate on this important issue. I am glad that so many people are here; this is a large attendance for members' business and it shows the importance that we attach to the issue. Like many other members, I ask the Executive to examine how women's aid groups are funded. There is a particular problem in my constituency with Dumfries and District Women's Aid. The group does a vital job, locally and nationally, and recently achieved a national profile for its \"Breaking Point\" video, which not only describes the experiences of women who have suffered domestic violence, but shows how they managed to get out of their relationships and began to rebuild their lives. It is important that women get the message that there are ways in which they can get through the abusive situation and that mechanisms are in place to support them. I should say that Dumfries and District Women's Aid also provides support for male victims of domestic or sexual violence. The group is not affiliated to Scottish Women's Aid; that is true of about 15 per cent of rural women's aid groups throughout the country. Dumfries and District Women's Aid is affiliated over the border in Carlisle and therefore, last year, could not receive a portion of the £250,000 that was distributed to local groups through Scottish Women's Aid. We should ensure that there is a mechanism that allows all groups to get their share of funding, because irrespective of their affiliation the job that they do is extremely important. As Maureen said, we must recognise that there are particular problems in rural areas such as the Highlands and the south and south-west of Scotland. Perhaps we should consider a more coherent way of addressing the problems of funding and giving some stability to the rural groups.", "EditedTextHTML": "I too wish to congratulate Maureen on securing a debate on this important issue. I am glad that so many people are here; this is a large attendance for members' business and it shows the importance that we attach to the issue.

Like many other members, I ask the Executive to examine how women's aid groups are funded. There is a particular problem in my constituency with Dumfries and District Women's Aid. The group does a vital job, locally and nationally, and recently achieved a national profile for its \"Breaking Point\" video, which not only describes the experiences of women who have suffered domestic violence, but shows how they managed to get out of their relationships and began to rebuild their lives. It is important that women get the message that there are ways in which they can get through the abusive situation and that mechanisms are in place to support them.

I should say that Dumfries and District Women's Aid also provides support for male victims of domestic or sexual violence. The group is not affiliated to Scottish Women's Aid; that is true of about 15 per cent of rural women's aid groups throughout the country. Dumfries and District Women's Aid is affiliated over the border in Carlisle and therefore, last year, could not receive a portion of the £250,000 that was distributed to local groups through Scottish Women's Aid. We should ensure that there is a mechanism that allows all groups to get their share of funding, because irrespective of their affiliation the job that they do is extremely important.

As Maureen said, we must recognise that there are particular problems in rural areas such as the Highlands and the south and south-west of Scotland. Perhaps we should consider a more coherent way of addressing the problems of funding and giving some stability to the rural groups.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C706664", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Domestic Violence", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26755, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 692.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 692.0, "ID": 26755, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 739.0, "ContributionID": 706664, "EditedText": "I am never impatient, Mr Gallie, but I am conscious that if we keep speeches to about three minutes everyone might be able to speak.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am never impatient, Mr Gallie, but I am conscious that if we keep speeches to about three minutes everyone might be able to speak.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1865E219P509C706666", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Domestic Violence", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26755, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 692.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 692.0, "ID": 26755, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "White, Sandra", "ID": 1865, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sandra White", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Sandra White (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 745.0, "ContributionID": 706666, "EditedText": "I wish to thank Maureen for initiating this debate, and to thank you, Mr Deputy Presiding Officer, for extending the debate. I realise that, when you were a member of the Westminster Parliament, you introduced a bill on this issue. This is a very emotive issue, and I do not want to get too emotive about it. Others have described the horrific scenes that they have seen, and the consequences. The majority of incidents of domestic violence involve battered women. We must take a two-step approach to this issue. First, we need immediate action. The zero tolerance campaign has been mentioned. The campaign raised awareness; the problem was that it gave people hope and aspirations, but we did not follow them up with funding. I hope that we have learned a lesson from that. Both emotional and financial resources are desperately needed. Local authorities fund women's aid groups; perhaps the Parliament could consider ring-fencing local authority funding for this purpose. We cannot impose such a change, but we could perhaps recommend to the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities that the funding could be ring- fenced. That way, women's aid projects could go ahead on a long-term basis, which would give them continuity and security, and women who approach the organisations would have something to hang onto. They would know that the organisations will still be there in two or three years' time. The second approach is a long-term education strategy, through schools and homes. We must introduce something like a good citizenship scheme into schools, to teach boys and girls to see each other as equal partners. I would like that on the curriculum. It would go a good way towards getting people to treat each other equally. It may take a number of years—women have had to endure violence for centuries—but we must tackle it for this generation and for future generations. I congratulate Maureen on raising this important subject.", "EditedTextHTML": "I wish to thank Maureen for initiating this debate, and to thank you, Mr Deputy Presiding Officer, for extending the debate. I realise that, when you were a member of the Westminster Parliament, you introduced a bill on this issue.

This is a very emotive issue, and I do not want to get too emotive about it. Others have described the horrific scenes that they have seen, and the consequences. The majority of incidents of domestic violence involve battered women.

We must take a two-step approach to this issue. First, we need immediate action. The zero tolerance campaign has been mentioned. The campaign raised awareness; the problem was that it gave people hope and aspirations, but we did not follow them up with funding. I hope that we have learned a lesson from that.

Both emotional and financial resources are desperately needed. Local authorities fund women's aid groups; perhaps the Parliament could consider ring-fencing local authority funding for this purpose.

We cannot impose such a change, but we could perhaps recommend to the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities that the funding could be ring- fenced. That way, women's aid projects could go ahead on a long-term basis, which would give them continuity and security, and women who approach the organisations would have something to hang onto. They would know that the organisations will still be there in two or three years' time.

The second approach is a long-term education strategy, through schools and homes. We must introduce something like a good citizenship scheme into schools, to teach boys and girls to see each other as equal partners. I would like that on the curriculum. It would go a good way towards getting people to treat each other equally. It may take a number of years—women have had to endure violence for centuries—but we must tackle it for this generation and for future generations. I congratulate Maureen on raising this important subject.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1782E69P279C706668", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Domestic Violence", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26755, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 692.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 692.0, "ID": 26755, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Oldfather, Irene", "ID": 1782, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Cunninghame South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Irene Oldfather", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Irene Oldfather (Cunninghame South) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 751.0, "ContributionID": 706668, "EditedText": "Colleagues, we sit here today in a Parliament which has equality at its core and a greater proportion of female members than any other level of elected representation in Britain. That is why I particularly welcome the opportunity for us to debate this motion. It is a sign that Parliament recognises the importance of women and of combating domestic violence in Scottish society. I choose my words carefully. The problem is a societal one. There is a tendency for some to see the perpetrators of domestic violence and their victims as the only parties involved. That is not so. Domestic violence feeds off the ugliest attitudes within sections of our society and gives those same attitudes succour. Such violence is a cycle which can only be broken by zero tolerance, both of the act itself and of those attitudes which undermine the equality to which we are entitled within a just society. It will be difficult to confront those attitudes. A recent survey carried out by the child and women abuse studies unit showed that more than one in two young people between 14 and 21 thought that women provoked violence in a number of contexts, such as by the way that they dressed. One in two boys and one in three girls thought that there were some circumstances where it would be acceptable to hit a woman or to force her to have sex. That these results come some 30 years after the first equal opportunities legislation shows that a concerted effort is required to challenge attitudes and ensure that violence towards women is eliminated. Nothing can be more important than ensuring that a woman can live free from fear and free from threat of violence within our society. The change in attitudes which that requires will not be easy to achieve and a concerted effort from people from all walks of life will be needed. I believe that we have made an important start here today; we have shown cross-party support. Let us hope that we have sent a message of zero tolerance of violence against women to all Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "Colleagues, we sit here today in a Parliament which has equality at its core and a greater proportion of female members than any other level of elected representation in Britain. That is why I particularly welcome the opportunity for us to debate this motion. It is a sign that Parliament recognises the importance of women and of combating domestic violence in Scottish society. I choose my words carefully. The problem is a societal one. There is a tendency for some to see the perpetrators of domestic violence and their victims as the only parties involved. That is not so. Domestic violence feeds off the ugliest attitudes within sections of our society and gives those same attitudes succour. Such violence is a cycle which can only be broken by zero tolerance, both of the act itself and of those attitudes which undermine the equality to which we are entitled within a just society.

It will be difficult to confront those attitudes. A recent survey carried out by the child and women abuse studies unit showed that more than one in two young people between 14 and 21 thought that women provoked violence in a number of contexts, such as by the way that they dressed. One in two boys and one in three girls thought that there were some circumstances where it would be acceptable to hit a woman or to force her to have sex. That these results come some 30 years after the first equal opportunities legislation shows that a concerted effort is required to challenge attitudes and ensure that violence towards women is eliminated. Nothing can be more important than ensuring that a woman can live free from fear and free from threat of violence within our society.

The change in attitudes which that requires will not be easy to achieve and a concerted effort from people from all walks of life will be needed. I believe that we have made an important start here today; we have shown cross-party support. Let us hope that we have sent a message of zero tolerance of violence against women to all Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2080E130P217C706671", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Domestic Violence", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26755, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 692.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 692.0, "ID": 26755, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lamont, Johann", "ID": 2080, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Pollok" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Johann Lamont", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Johann Lamont (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 759.0, "ContributionID": 706671, "EditedText": "I welcome this debate on domestic violence. It is one which is too often left hidden and not allowed to come out into the open. We spent some time this morning, quite rightly, debating issues of public safety in relation to people with diagnosed mental illnesses. Domestic violence, which, in the vast majority of cases, is a violence which men visit upon women, is carried out by sane men against the women whom they live with or have lived with, and they carry it out simply because they can. The issue of male victims of domestic violence is the exception which proves the rule. In reality, most domestic violence emerges where we find a certain kind of behaviour acceptable, where men's and women's roles are defined in a certain way, and where it is acceptable for men to view women in that way. We obviously need to address the misery, fear and violence that is the daily experience of far too many women. I agree with the comments that have been made on funding and I say this: this Parliament, which has so many women, must reflect women's priorities, and I hope that the Scottish Executive will listen when we discuss funding. We cannot afford to have women who screw their courage to the sticking-place and who ask for help if that help is not there for them. We need to examine a whole range of issues in some detail: I want to highlight one. There is a clear issue about the legislation in this country, some of which does a disservice to women and undermines those who are fleeing violence. There is a clear role for the Justice and Home Affairs Committee in scrutinising current legislation. Representatives from the Glasgow women's support project raised one example of that with me: the way in which the Children (Scotland) Act 1995 can be used by male abusers of women, because of questions of access, to create further difficulties for women fleeing violence. I hope that the Justice and Home Affairs Committee, with women's organisations and other organisations supporting women who are fleeing violence, will deal with this and other matters that have such tragic consequences for women and their families.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome this debate on domestic violence. It is one which is too often left hidden and not allowed to come out into the open.

We spent some time this morning, quite rightly, debating issues of public safety in relation to people with diagnosed mental illnesses. Domestic violence, which, in the vast majority of cases, is a violence which men visit upon women, is carried out by sane men against the women whom they live with or have lived with, and they carry it out simply because they can.

The issue of male victims of domestic violence is the exception which proves the rule. In reality, most domestic violence emerges where we find a certain kind of behaviour acceptable, where men's and women's roles are defined in a certain way, and where it is acceptable for men to view women in that way.

We obviously need to address the misery, fear and violence that is the daily experience of far too many women. I agree with the comments that have been made on funding and I say this: this Parliament, which has so many women, must reflect women's priorities, and I hope that the Scottish Executive will listen when we discuss funding. We cannot afford to have women who screw their courage to the sticking-place and who ask for help if that help is not there for them.

We need to examine a whole range of issues in some detail: I want to highlight one. There is a clear issue about the legislation in this country, some of which does a disservice to women and undermines those who are fleeing violence. There is a clear role for the Justice and Home Affairs Committee in scrutinising current legislation. Representatives from the Glasgow women's support project raised one example of that with me: the way in which the Children (Scotland) Act 1995 can be used by male abusers of women, because of questions of access, to create further difficulties for women fleeing violence.

I hope that the Justice and Home Affairs Committee, with women's organisations and other organisations supporting women who are fleeing violence, will deal with this and other matters that have such tragic consequences for women and their families.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1783E59P270C706538", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26729, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26730, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 320.0, "QuestionHeading": "Disabled People", "QuestionHeadingID": 26744, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 442.0, "DisplayOrder": 442.0, "ID": 26744, "ParentID": 26730 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Baillie, Jackie", "ID": 1783, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumbarton" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Jackie Baillie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Jackie Baillie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 455.0, "ContributionID": 706538, "EditedText": "I entirely agree with Karen Whitefield's earlier sentiments. In general terms, the regulations provided for by the Disability Discrimination Act 1995 to improve access to public service vehicles are being worked up. Specifically, we would all accept that shop mobility schemes can be an important help to the disabled. It is primarily for local authorities to develop those schemes at a local level, and I encourage them to do so with disability groups and with existing community transport schemes.", "EditedTextHTML": "I entirely agree with Karen Whitefield's earlier sentiments. In general terms, the regulations provided for by the Disability Discrimination Act 1995 to improve access to public service vehicles are being worked up. Specifically, we would all accept that shop mobility schemes can be an important help to the disabled. It is primarily for local authorities to develop those schemes at a local level, and I encourage them to do so with disability groups and with existing community transport schemes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:14:54.5772891+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1863E284P532C706332", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Cunningham, Roseanna", "ID": 1863, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Perth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Roseanna Cunningham", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Roseanna Cunningham (Perth) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 14.0, "ContributionID": 706332, "EditedText": "The emergency legislation that is before us today is undoubtedly an example of what can be achieved by this Parliament and of the speed with which we can achieve it in comparison with Westminster. It is also an example, however, of what happens when a Government does not do its job. It is a tragedy that the first piece of legislation before this Parliament has to be passed under the emergency provisions contained in the standing orders. I understand that the process has uncovered one or two deficiencies in the standing orders as they pertain to emergency legislation— happily, that will be a matter for the Procedures Committee and not for me. More than the standing orders are deficient, however. The verdict of many people, not just in this chamber but throughout the country, is that the Executive has been found seriously wanting in its handling of the matter. We should remember that, on Monday 2 August, Noel Ruddle's release from Carstairs did not come as a bolt out of the blue, either to the Minister for Justice or to the First Minister. Apparently, they had a conversation on the Sunday about the forthcoming release. Astonishingly, they did not consider public confidence to be an issue that they had to address; they cannot have done so, otherwise the matter would not have been handled in such a cack-handed way during the days and weeks since then. During that period, their handling of the situation seems to have got worse and worse. They gave the impression of two lawyers having a cosy chat on the phone—", "EditedTextHTML": "The emergency legislation that is before us today is undoubtedly an example of what can be achieved by this Parliament and of the speed with which we can achieve it in comparison with Westminster. It is also an example, however, of what happens when a Government does not do its job.

It is a tragedy that the first piece of legislation before this Parliament has to be passed under the emergency provisions contained in the standing orders. I understand that the process has uncovered one or two deficiencies in the standing orders as they pertain to emergency legislation— happily, that will be a matter for the Procedures Committee and not for me.

More than the standing orders are deficient, however. The verdict of many people, not just in this chamber but throughout the country, is that the Executive has been found seriously wanting in its handling of the matter.

We should remember that, on Monday 2 August, Noel Ruddle's release from Carstairs did not come as a bolt out of the blue, either to the Minister for Justice or to the First Minister. Apparently, they had a conversation on the Sunday about the forthcoming release. Astonishingly, they did not consider public confidence to be an issue that they had to address; they cannot have done so, otherwise the matter would not have been handled in such a cack-handed way during the days and weeks since then.

During that period, their handling of the situation seems to have got worse and worse. They gave the impression of two lawyers having a cosy chat on the phone—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706334", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 18.0, "ContributionID": 706334, "EditedText": "That is not a point of order, Mr Lyon.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is not a point of order, Mr Lyon.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1863E284P532C706335", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Cunningham, Roseanna", "ID": 1863, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Perth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Roseanna Cunningham", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Roseanna Cunningham: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 20.0, "ContributionID": 706335, "EditedText": "The clear impression was of two lawyers having a cosy chat on the phone about the legal niceties of the case, while entirely forgetting their responsibilities as politicians and as members of the Executive. The minister seemed totally unprepared for the storm that broke over his head. Why was that? The question remains unanswered by him. Based on the evidence of that first week following Ruddle's release, the answer is probably that he would not recognise a real political issue if it got up and bit him on the nose. At the Justice and Home Affairs Committee meeting on Tuesday afternoon, the minister said that he was not told of the problem that was likely to be posed by the Ruddle case until 14 July— almost two months after he took office. That raises questions about the quality of the advice to ministers. Receiving that information on 14 July would, however, still have given him two weeks to get to work on the problem before the outrage hit the fan. What happened between 14 July and 2 August? We should be told. On the evidence of the publicity at the time, the First Minister seems to have packed his bags to head off on a wee holiday. I do not begrudge him that holiday, although I notice that he is not in the chamber today, which is a pity. I wonder, however, whether the timing of that holiday was entirely apt in the light of the advance warning that had been given. The Minister for Justice must also have cleared off somewhere, because a junior minister initially handled the furore and was left blinking like a bewildered rabbit in the studio lights, haplessly and hopelessly defending the indefensible until the Minister for Justice rode to the rescue some days later. Meanwhile, Ruddle had been doing some bag packing of his own. When the minister reappeared, it was to a hastily arranged meeting with me and the leader of the Conservative party. No doubt, he hoped that that meeting would stop the uproar. It is a pity that, when he was pressed on whether there were any cases in the pipeline similar to Ruddle's, he answered with an unequivocal no. Lo and behold, that was not strictly true. The minister now tells us that the facts of one of the cases about which he did not advise us were not intimated to him until some hours after the meeting on 4 August—we must accept his word on that. However, I still do not accept the explanation that was given for withholding information about the other case that was due to come up—the Tonner case.", "EditedTextHTML": "The clear impression was of two lawyers having a cosy chat on the phone about the legal niceties of the case, while entirely forgetting their responsibilities as politicians and as members of the Executive.

The minister seemed totally unprepared for the storm that broke over his head. Why was that? The question remains unanswered by him. Based on the evidence of that first week following Ruddle's release, the answer is probably that he would not recognise a real political issue if it got up and bit him on the nose.

At the Justice and Home Affairs Committee meeting on Tuesday afternoon, the minister said that he was not told of the problem that was likely to be posed by the Ruddle case until 14 July— almost two months after he took office. That raises questions about the quality of the advice to ministers. Receiving that information on 14 July would, however, still have given him two weeks to get to work on the problem before the outrage hit the fan. What happened between 14 July and 2 August? We should be told.

On the evidence of the publicity at the time, the First Minister seems to have packed his bags to head off on a wee holiday. I do not begrudge him that holiday, although I notice that he is not in the chamber today, which is a pity. I wonder, however, whether the timing of that holiday was entirely apt in the light of the advance warning that had been given.

The Minister for Justice must also have cleared off somewhere, because a junior minister initially handled the furore and was left blinking like a bewildered rabbit in the studio lights, haplessly and hopelessly defending the indefensible until the Minister for Justice rode to the rescue some days later. Meanwhile, Ruddle had been doing some bag packing of his own.

When the minister reappeared, it was to a hastily arranged meeting with me and the leader of the Conservative party. No doubt, he hoped that that meeting would stop the uproar. It is a pity that, when he was pressed on whether there were any cases in the pipeline similar to Ruddle's, he answered with an unequivocal no. Lo and behold, that was not strictly true. The minister now tells us that the facts of one of the cases about which he did not advise us were not intimated to him until some hours after the meeting on 4 August—we must accept his word on that. However, I still do not accept the explanation that was given for withholding information about the other case that was due to come up—the Tonner case.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1863E284P532C706337", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Cunningham, Roseanna", "ID": 1863, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Perth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Roseanna Cunningham", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Roseanna Cunningham: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 24.0, "ContributionID": 706337, "EditedText": "The minister knows that the explanation that was subsequently given on 27 August was not accepted either by me or by Mr McLetchie. It transpired that the appeal was made on precisely the same point but that, at an early stage, a view was taken of the quality of the evidence. The minister was therefore going to advise us that the cases were not the same. However, to say that a different view was taken of the quality of the evidence is by no means the same as saying that the Tonner case was not similar to the Ruddle case. It was disingenuous in the extreme for the minister to have taken that position on the Tonner case, and I think that he knows it. The matter has damaged his credibility. His credibility was not helped any further by his saying before the Justice and Home Affairs Committee on Tuesday that he was not there in 1997 and 1998 during the events that led up to the case.", "EditedTextHTML": "The minister knows that the explanation that was subsequently given on 27 August was not accepted either by me or by Mr McLetchie.

It transpired that the appeal was made on precisely the same point but that, at an early stage, a view was taken of the quality of the evidence. The minister was therefore going to advise us that the cases were not the same. However, to say that a different view was taken of the quality of the evidence is by no means the same as saying that the Tonner case was not similar to the Ruddle case.

It was disingenuous in the extreme for the minister to have taken that position on the Tonner case, and I think that he knows it. The matter has damaged his credibility. His credibility was not helped any further by his saying before the Justice and Home Affairs Committee on Tuesday that he was not there in 1997 and 1998 during the events that led up to the case.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1990E181P340C706340", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robson, Euan", "ID": 1990, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Roxburgh and Berwickshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Euan Robson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Euan Robson (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 30.0, "ContributionID": 706340, "EditedText": "Will Roseanna Cunningham give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Roseanna Cunningham give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1863E284P532C706345", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Cunningham, Roseanna", "ID": 1863, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Perth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Roseanna Cunningham", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Roseanna Cunningham: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 40.0, "ContributionID": 706345, "EditedText": "On Tuesday, the Minister for Justice stated categorically that \"the MacLean committee was set up as our response to the Reid judgment.\" Official Report, Justice and Home Affairs Committee, 31 August 1999; c 31. The MacLean committee was set up after a successful intervention in the House of Lords. Apparently, the success in the sheriff court appeal a year earlier had not set the alarm bells ringing, but the success in the House of Lords had. I would like to know why, in the middle of 1998, given that Ruddle had then come into the queue, the then Secretary of State for Scotland did not hear the alarm bells ringing loudly enough to have done something about it. We have lost a great deal of time in dealing with the issue. The problems posed by the Mental Health (Scotland) Act 1984 had been growing for some time. There are other issues to do with treatability, which take us back to 1994, but other members will deal with that. The unpalatable truth is that the current Minister for Justice is responsible for the debacle—he is on the hook, but he is not the only one. The previous Secretary of State for Scotland, now the First Minister, must take some share of the blame. The fact that he is not in the Parliament today and is pretending that this matter has nothing to do with him simply will not do.", "EditedTextHTML": "On Tuesday, the Minister for Justice stated categorically that

\"the MacLean committee was set up as our response to the Reid judgment.\" [Official Report, Justice and Home Affairs Committee, 31 August 1999; c 31.]

The MacLean committee was set up after a successful intervention in the House of Lords. Apparently, the success in the sheriff court appeal a year earlier had not set the alarm bells ringing, but the success in the House of Lords had. I would like to know why, in the middle of 1998, given that Ruddle had then come into the queue, the then Secretary of State for Scotland did not hear the alarm bells ringing loudly enough to have done something about it. We have lost a great deal of time in dealing with the issue.

The problems posed by the Mental Health (Scotland) Act 1984 had been growing for some time. There are other issues to do with treatability, which take us back to 1994, but other members will deal with that. The unpalatable truth is that the current Minister for Justice is responsible for the debacle—he is on the hook, but he is not the only one. The previous Secretary of State for Scotland, now the First Minister, must take some share of the blame. The fact that he is not in the Parliament today and is pretending that this matter has nothing to do with him simply will not do.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706347", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 45.0, "ContributionID": 706347, "EditedText": "I am sorry, but your microphone is not on. Please press the button.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry, but your microphone is not on. Please press the button.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C706348", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 47.0, "ContributionID": 706348, "EditedText": "It is not working.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is not working.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706349", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 49.0, "ContributionID": 706349, "EditedText": "I am sorry about that. Could we have Mr McLetchie's microphone on, please? I will grant you injury time. Just shout, David. Laughter.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry about that. Could we have Mr McLetchie's microphone on, please?

I will grant you injury time. Just shout, David. [Laughter.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C706351", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Jim Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 53.0, "ContributionID": 706351, "EditedText": "That is not true.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is not true.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706357", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 65.0, "ContributionID": 706357, "EditedText": "Mr McLetchie, please leave me out of it. You have been addressing me and not the minister.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr McLetchie, please leave me out of it. You have been addressing me and not the minister.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C706362", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 75.0, "ContributionID": 706362, "EditedText": "My recollection is that the whole subject of emergency legislation was initiated in that discussion by Ms Cunningham and myself, and that most of the initial discussion—led by Mr Gray and the Deputy First Minister—related to a review of the Ruddle case and why certain actions had or had not been taken. The complexity of any new legislation in relation to human rights was also discussed. I accept that the ministers said that legislation might be introduced, but what we are talking about now is the timetable and the speed of response. The indications that were given at that meeting— and Ms Cunningham and the notes will confirm this—were that we were unlikely to have legislation on the statute book until at least October. As he said in his statement of 4 August, Mr Wallace was going to make a prior referral of the matter to the MacLean committee. That is in his statement.", "EditedTextHTML": "My recollection is that the whole subject of emergency legislation was initiated in that discussion by Ms Cunningham and myself, and that most of the initial discussion—led by Mr Gray and the Deputy First Minister—related to a review of the Ruddle case and why certain actions had or had not been taken. The complexity of any new legislation in relation to human rights was also discussed.

I accept that the ministers said that legislation might be introduced, but what we are talking about now is the timetable and the speed of response. The indications that were given at that meeting— and Ms Cunningham and the notes will confirm this—were that we were unlikely to have legislation on the statute book until at least October. As he said in his statement of 4 August, Mr Wallace was going to make a prior referral of the matter to the MacLean committee. That is in his statement.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2038E191P344C706363", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Smith, Iain", "ID": 2038, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Iain Smith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Parliament (Iain Smith) rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 77.0, "ContributionID": 706363, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1990E181P340C706367", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robson, Euan", "ID": 1990, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Roxburgh and Berwickshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Euan Robson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Euan Robson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 86.0, "ContributionID": 706367, "EditedText": "But is Mr MacAskill suggesting that the Government should initiate a committee of inquiry during the course of legal proceedings? That would probably be unprecedented during a series of appeals.", "EditedTextHTML": "But is Mr MacAskill suggesting that the Government should initiate a committee of inquiry during the course of legal proceedings? That would probably be unprecedented during a series of appeals.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C706370", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 92.0, "ContributionID": 706370, "EditedText": "I think that I am live now.I want to point out that the legislation that we are being invited to enact will affect cases that have already been lodged and are still to be heard. Mr Robson asks whether the Government can initiate a committee of inquiry while the case is pending, but this legislation will change the law while the case is pending, which is far more fundamental.", "EditedTextHTML": "I think that I am live now.

I want to point out that the legislation that we are being invited to enact will affect cases that have already been lodged and are still to be heard. Mr Robson asks whether the Government can initiate a committee of inquiry while the case is pending, but this legislation will change the law while the case is pending, which is far more fundamental.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706400", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Lord Advocate", "SpeakerName": "Andrew Hardie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Lord Advocate (Lord Hardie): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 161.0, "ContributionID": 706400, "EditedText": "Sir David, I do not accept the criticism that has just been levelled against my office and my department by Mr MacAskill. That criticism proceeds upon a complete misunderstanding of the factual position and, had Mr MacAskill bothered to concentrate on the judgment and to attend to the facts—as opposed to the hype and the hyperbole in which he has indulged today—we might have got further along the road. The fact is that it was not the responsible medical officer who, in April 1998, recommended Ruddle's discharge—it was a medical subcommittee. The RMO at that time was of the view that he was treatable, and remained of that view— MEMBERS: \"He changed his mind.\" Will members please let me finish. The RMO remained of that view until March 1999, after the appeal had been lodged. I do not want to exchange factual details with Mr MacAskill. There are more important matters to be discussed. There are few areas of law more complex than the interaction of Scotland's criminal and mental health laws. That complexity stems from the legislation. Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP)rose—", "EditedTextHTML": "Sir David, I do not accept the criticism that has just been

levelled against my office and my department by Mr MacAskill. That criticism proceeds upon a complete misunderstanding of the factual position and, had Mr MacAskill bothered to concentrate on the judgment and to attend to the facts—as opposed to the hype and the hyperbole in which he has indulged today—we might have got further along the road.

The fact is that it was not the responsible medical officer who, in April 1998, recommended Ruddle's discharge—it was a medical subcommittee. The RMO at that time was of the view that he was treatable, and remained of that view— [MEMBERS: \"He changed his mind.\"] Will members please let me finish. The RMO remained of that view until March 1999, after the appeal had been lodged.

I do not want to exchange factual details with Mr MacAskill. There are more important matters to be discussed. There are few areas of law more complex than the interaction of Scotland's criminal and mental health laws. That complexity stems from the legislation.

Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP)

rose—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706374", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 101.0, "ContributionID": 706374, "EditedText": "I am sorry; the member is in his last minute.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry; the member is in his last minute.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1985E207P501C706375", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hamilton, Mr Duncan", "ID": 1985, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Hamilton: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 103.0, "ContributionID": 706375, "EditedText": "I would appreciate specific answers to my points about treatability and about the position of the responsible medical officer. My questions are not just for Mr Wallace but for the whole Government; it is about time that his coalition partners tried to buttress his unfortunate position.", "EditedTextHTML": "I would appreciate specific answers to my points about treatability and about the position of the responsible medical officer. My questions are not just for Mr Wallace but for the whole Government; it is about time that his coalition partners tried to buttress his unfortunate position.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C706378", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 110.0, "ContributionID": 706378, "EditedText": "Nevertheless, if members read the timetabling motion, they will learn that there is by no means enough time for adequate scrutiny of the bill. The Executive says that there are over two weeks for scrutiny. For heaven's sake, we have today and one day next week for consideration of this emergency bill. That is not adequate by any means. Later there will be an opportunity—albeit limited—to discuss the content of the bill. I am concerned about certain aspects. There is, understandably, great concern about public safety, but there is also concern about the implications for human rights of the legislation and about the reference to personality disorder and its definition. What exactly is a personality disorder? If everybody with a personality disorder were a potential candidate for being locked up, that would be one way of reducing the membership of this Parliament. There would be more than a few objections—especially if the First Minister had the key. Whether or not that is a real possibility, it is important that we are given the full opportunity to study and consider the implications of the legislation. My fear is that if Mr McCabe's emergency bill procedures motion is passed, it will be an early example of the Executive trying to use this Parliament as a rubber stamp. The people of Scotland have waited nearly 300 years for this Parliament and I fear that historians might record that our first piece of legislation was passed with undue haste and inadequate scrutiny. That does not augur well for the new Parliament or for the quality of our legislation on mental health or anything else.", "EditedTextHTML": "Nevertheless, if members read the timetabling motion, they will learn that there is by no means enough time for adequate scrutiny of the bill. The Executive says that there are over two weeks for scrutiny. For heaven's sake, we have today and one day next week for consideration of this emergency bill. That is not adequate by any means.

Later there will be an opportunity—albeit limited—to discuss the content of the bill. I am concerned about certain aspects. There is, understandably, great concern about public safety, but there is also concern about the implications for human rights of the legislation and about the reference to personality disorder and its definition.

What exactly is a personality disorder? If everybody with a personality disorder were a potential candidate for being locked up, that would be one way of reducing the membership of this Parliament. There would be more than a few objections—especially if the First Minister had the key.

Whether or not that is a real possibility, it is important that we are given the full opportunity to study and consider the implications of the legislation. My fear is that if Mr McCabe's emergency bill procedures motion is passed, it will be an early example of the Executive trying to use this Parliament as a rubber stamp.

The people of Scotland have waited nearly 300 years for this Parliament and I fear that historians might record that our first piece of legislation was passed with undue haste and inadequate scrutiny. That does not augur well for the new Parliament or for the quality of our legislation on mental health or anything else.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C706381", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 117.0, "ContributionID": 706381, "EditedText": "If Mrs Ewing looks at the photograph in The Herald yesterday, she will see, on the bill that I eventually signed, that I crossed out the words \"draft 12\".", "EditedTextHTML": "If Mrs Ewing looks at the photograph in The Herald yesterday, she will see, on the bill that I eventually signed, that I crossed out the words \"draft 12\".

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706410", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Lord Advocate", "SpeakerName": "Andrew Hardie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Lord Advocate: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 181.0, "ContributionID": 706410, "EditedText": "The Labour Government, and thereafter the Scottish Executive, acted promptly at every stage. In 1997, I instructed the appeal to the House of Lords in Reid—an indication that I am prepared to act to protect the public where it is possible to do so within the law. Of course I did not criticise the previous Government or its law officers for failing to introduce legislation prior to their losing the case in the inner house. Doing so would have been as absurd as the position adopted by critics of the Scottish Executive in the past few weeks. In December 1998, following Reid, the Millan committee was established, and the MacLean committee was established in February 1999.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Labour Government, and thereafter the Scottish Executive, acted promptly at every stage. In 1997, I instructed the appeal to the House of Lords in Reid—an indication that I am prepared to act to protect the public where it is possible to do so within the law. Of course I did not criticise the previous

Government or its law officers for failing to introduce legislation prior to their losing the case in the inner house. Doing so would have been as absurd as the position adopted by critics of the Scottish Executive in the past few weeks. In December 1998, following Reid, the Millan committee was established, and the MacLean committee was established in February 1999.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1821E295P538C706382", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Mrs Margaret", "ID": 1821, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Moray" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 119.0, "ContributionID": 706382, "EditedText": "There were rumours that there were more than just a dozen—I do not know whether it was a baker's dozen—and, certainly, not all of us look at every picture in The Herald. It is important that we realise that the people who are responsible for helping us to draft legislation must go through a complex procedure to reach this stage. In his response, I would like the minister or his deputy to advise us which organisations were consulted while the legislation was drafted, which was clearly a long process. I know, because of my interest in people with special needs, that many organisations have made strong recommendations and expressed strong concerns about the motion. I echo the point about defining personality disorders. I am sure that people in the press gallery look down and say, \"Those 129 people must have personality disorders or they would not be there.\" According to some of the articles that I read in the tabloid press, we are all here for some very strange reasons. What is a personality disorder? It is a difficult definition. From my training in special needs, I know that every case is an individual case. I do not think that blanket legislation can define a personality disorder, and that is where I have a huge problem with the overall direction of the bill. Unless we look at the definition in terms of individual cases and of our ability to treat those cases, we will have to revisit the issue. I would like a clear commitment that when the Millan and MacLean reports come before this assembly, they will be considered by the various committees of the Parliament because the reports touch on public safety, criminal law, health, education and a variety of other things. They should not be referred to a specific committee because it is essential that the boundaries are crossed.", "EditedTextHTML": "There were rumours that there were more than just a dozen—I do not know whether it was a baker's dozen—and, certainly, not all of us

look at every picture in The Herald. It is important that we realise that the people who are responsible for helping us to draft legislation must go through a complex procedure to reach this stage.

In his response, I would like the minister or his deputy to advise us which organisations were consulted while the legislation was drafted, which was clearly a long process. I know, because of my interest in people with special needs, that many organisations have made strong recommendations and expressed strong concerns about the motion.

I echo the point about defining personality disorders. I am sure that people in the press gallery look down and say, \"Those 129 people must have personality disorders or they would not be there.\" According to some of the articles that I read in the tabloid press, we are all here for some very strange reasons.

What is a personality disorder? It is a difficult definition. From my training in special needs, I know that every case is an individual case. I do not think that blanket legislation can define a personality disorder, and that is where I have a huge problem with the overall direction of the bill. Unless we look at the definition in terms of individual cases and of our ability to treat those cases, we will have to revisit the issue.

I would like a clear commitment that when the Millan and MacLean reports come before this assembly, they will be considered by the various committees of the Parliament because the reports touch on public safety, criminal law, health, education and a variety of other things. They should not be referred to a specific committee because it is essential that the boundaries are crossed.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2029E47P167C706384", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Henry, Hugh", "ID": 2029, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Hugh Henry", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Hugh Henry (Paisley South) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 123.0, "ContributionID": 706384, "EditedText": "On a point of order, Mr Presiding Officer.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order, Mr Presiding Officer.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706387", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 129.0, "ContributionID": 706387, "EditedText": "No. To give you a straight answer, there were no Labour names on my list. I kept on querying that, which is how we discovered that the equipment was not working. I do not think that the equipment is displaying political bias; it has simply not worked. I will do my best to rectify that in the last few minutes of debate, but it has caused a major problem.", "EditedTextHTML": "No. To give you a straight answer, there were no Labour names on my list. I kept on querying that, which is how we discovered that the equipment was not working. I do not think that the equipment is displaying political bias; it has simply not worked. I will do my best to rectify that in the last few minutes of debate, but it has caused a major problem.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C706389", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 134.0, "ContributionID": 706389, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706392", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 140.0, "ContributionID": 706392, "EditedText": "You are quite right Mr Gallie, but in view of the problems that we have had, Ms Gillon was justified in pressing on. For the same reason, I call Cathy Jamieson next to try to rebalance the debate.", "EditedTextHTML": "You are quite right Mr Gallie, but in view of the problems that we have had, Ms Gillon was justified in pressing on. For the same reason, I call Cathy Jamieson next to try to rebalance the debate.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706403", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Lord Advocate", "SpeakerName": "Andrew Hardie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Lord Advocate: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 167.0, "ContributionID": 706403, "EditedText": "In my closing remarks I want to revisit three areas: the history of events, the Parliament's key role in the overhaul of Scotland's mental health legislation, and the urgency to enact legislation necessitating the treatment of this bill as an emergency bill. We have heard suggestions today from Conservative and Scottish National party members that we could or should have acted differently, and that by doing so we would have secured the continued detention of Mr Ruddle. There have also been suggestions in the past few weeks—they were repeated today— that the Executive showed no concern for the situation until it was spurred into action by the media, or perhaps by members of Opposition parties, after the issue of the judgment on Monday 2 August. Indeed, Mr McLetchie even accuses us of complacency. Nothing could be further from the truth. Before I deal with what we did to protect the public, I would ask this Parliament what the Conservatives did in that regard. Despite the promises Lord James Douglas-Hamilton made to the Scottish Grand Committee in July 1996— which were referred to earlier—to ensure that the arrangements for discharge of patients from psychiatric hospitals took due account of public safety, nothing was done. Nor is there any evidence of demands by the Conservatives for urgent action prior to, or even after, the House of Lords decision in the Reid case—not even from the previous law officers. Where were they then?", "EditedTextHTML": "In my closing remarks I want to revisit three areas: the history of events, the Parliament's key role in the overhaul of Scotland's mental health legislation, and the urgency to enact legislation necessitating the treatment of this bill as an emergency bill.

We have heard suggestions today from Conservative and Scottish National party members that we could or should have acted differently, and that by doing so we would have secured the continued detention of Mr Ruddle.

There have also been suggestions in the past few weeks—they were repeated today— that the Executive showed no concern for the situation until it was spurred into action by the media, or perhaps by members of Opposition parties, after the issue of the judgment on Monday 2 August. Indeed, Mr McLetchie even accuses us of complacency. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Before I deal with what we did to protect the public, I would ask this Parliament what the Conservatives did in that regard. Despite the promises Lord James Douglas-Hamilton made to the Scottish Grand Committee in July 1996— which were referred to earlier—to ensure that the arrangements for discharge of patients from psychiatric hospitals took due account of public safety, nothing was done. Nor is there any evidence of demands by the Conservatives for urgent action prior to, or even after, the House of Lords decision in the Reid case—not even from the previous law officers. Where were they then?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706407", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Lord Advocate", "SpeakerName": "Andrew Hardie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Lord Advocate: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 175.0, "ContributionID": 706407, "EditedText": "I accept that, but Lord James did nothing, despite his promises to the Scottish Grand Committee in 1996. In contrast to the lack of activity on the Conservatives' part, the Labour Government—", "EditedTextHTML": "I accept that, but Lord James did nothing, despite his promises to the Scottish Grand Committee in 1996. In contrast to the lack of activity on the Conservatives' part, the Labour Government—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706409", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 179.0, "ContributionID": 706409, "EditedText": "Order. I have already dealt with that point.", "EditedTextHTML": "Order. I have already dealt with that point.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C706413", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 187.0, "ContributionID": 706413, "EditedText": "I accept that the advice you gave the minister in good faith was that an application for judicial review might not have been successful. Was it your advice that there was no stateable basis for a review? Was that your advice—that there was no stateable basis, no remotest possibility that the Crown would win?", "EditedTextHTML": "I accept that the advice you gave the minister in good faith was that an application for judicial review might not have been successful. Was it your advice that there was no stateable basis for a review? Was that your advice—that there was no stateable basis, no remotest possibility that the Crown would win?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706414", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Lord Advocate", "SpeakerName": "Andrew Hardie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Lord Advocate: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 189.0, "ContributionID": 706414, "EditedText": "The advice was that there was no prospect of a success in the appeal.", "EditedTextHTML": "The advice was that there was no prospect of a success in the appeal.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706416", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Lord Advocate", "SpeakerName": "Andrew Hardie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Lord Advocate: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 193.0, "ContributionID": 706416, "EditedText": "The advice given was quite clear. There was no prospect of any success and no merit in going ahead with a judicial review. As a result of that—as a precaution—the police were alerted by the Crown Office on Friday to enable them to take special precautions to secure the protection of the public after Monday. I was not content to leave matters there, and the Solicitor General was asked to consider the judgment on his return home on the Saturday. A meeting was arranged on the Saturday, with the Solicitor General, me and the legal secretary, and the same conclusion was reached. I note that Mr McLetchie referred to the fact that his advice is that there could be no guarantee that this would be successful. Our position—and the position of all lawyers involved in the case until the Monday—was that there were no prospects of a successful judicial review and that there was no lawful basis for securing the detention of Ruddle after the Monday. Our view was confirmed on the Monday in a note of preliminary views of counsel. Five people independently reached the same conclusion. Members should bear in mind the fact that we were seeking legitimate means of continually detaining Ruddle. The First Minister was advised on Sunday 1 August. Since then, there has been prompt action. I am not prepared to act without a sound basis in law. Nothing that could have been done would have secured Ruddle's detention, even if one were to put in a bogus judicial review petition. On the role of Parliament, we must get the mental health legislation right. I look forward to the reports of the two committees that will instruct that. It is necessary to act today, as an emergency. I welcome the support of Mr McLetchie and Ms Cunningham in that regard. Within 48 hours of the release we committed ourselves to fast-track legislation and we are here today to consider it.", "EditedTextHTML": "The advice given was quite clear. There was no prospect of any success and no merit in going ahead with a judicial review. As a result of that—as a precaution—the police were alerted by the Crown Office on Friday to enable them to take special precautions to secure the protection of the public after Monday. I was not content to leave matters there, and the Solicitor General was asked to consider the judgment on his return home on the Saturday. A meeting was arranged on the Saturday, with the Solicitor General, me and the legal secretary, and the same conclusion was reached.

I note that Mr McLetchie referred to the fact that his advice is that there could be no guarantee that this would be successful. Our position—and the position of all lawyers involved in the case until the Monday—was that there were no prospects of a successful judicial review and that there was no lawful basis for securing the detention of Ruddle after the Monday.

Our view was confirmed on the Monday in a note of preliminary views of counsel. Five people independently reached the same conclusion. Members should bear in mind the fact that we were seeking legitimate means of continually detaining Ruddle.

The First Minister was advised on Sunday 1 August. Since then, there has been prompt action. I am not prepared to act without a sound basis in law. Nothing that could have been done would have secured Ruddle's detention, even if one were to put in a bogus judicial review petition.

On the role of Parliament, we must get the mental health legislation right. I look forward to the reports of the two committees that will instruct that.

It is necessary to act today, as an emergency. I welcome the support of Mr McLetchie and Ms Cunningham in that regard. Within 48 hours of the release we committed ourselves to fast-track legislation and we are here today to consider it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C706417", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 195.0, "ContributionID": 706417, "EditedText": "Will the Lord Advocate give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the Lord Advocate give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706422", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 204.0, "ContributionID": 706422, "EditedText": "The bill is referred to the Parliament.The next item of business is Parliamentary Bureau motion S1M-110, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, on the timetabling of the Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill. This motion will be taken without debate.", "EditedTextHTML": "The bill is referred to the Parliament.

The next item of business is Parliamentary Bureau motion S1M-110, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, on the timetabling of the Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill. This motion will be taken without debate.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706423", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 206.0, "ContributionID": 706423, "EditedText": "Motion moved,", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion moved,

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706427", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 210.0, "ContributionID": 706427, "EditedText": "The question is, that motion S1M-110, in the name of Tom McCabe, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "The question is, that motion S1M-110, in the name of Tom McCabe, be agreed to.

Are we all agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706428", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 212.0, "ContributionID": 706428, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706437", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 229.0, "ContributionID": 706437, "EditedText": "There is a point of order.", "EditedTextHTML": "There is a point of order.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1876E194P490C706438", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Marwick, Tricia", "ID": 1876, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tricia Marwick", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tricia Marwick: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 231.0, "ContributionID": 706438, "EditedText": "It is not a point of order, Presiding Officer. I am seeking your guidance. I raised what I thought was a genuine point of order about the fact that the Lord Advocate had strayed way beyond his role. Can you advise me, Presiding Officer: if that is not a matter for you, who is it a matter for?", "EditedTextHTML": "It is not a point of order, Presiding Officer. I am seeking your guidance. I raised what I thought was a genuine point of order about the fact that the Lord Advocate had strayed way beyond his role. Can you advise me, Presiding Officer: if that is not a matter for you, who is it a matter for?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706439", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 233.0, "ContributionID": 706439, "EditedText": "It is not actually a point of order, but let me explain. The Lord Advocate was speaking on behalf of the Executive in winding up that debate—he was speaking in that capacity.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is not actually a point of order, but let me explain. The Lord Advocate was speaking on behalf of the Executive in winding up that debate—he was speaking in that capacity.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1863E284P532C706443", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Cunningham, Roseanna", "ID": 1863, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Perth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Roseanna Cunningham", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Roseanna Cunningham: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 243.0, "ContributionID": 706443, "EditedText": "I have already stated my concern that we are in the highly unsatisfactory position of having to legislate in an emergency manner for an area of law that has serious implications for human rights. The SNP is supporting this bill, as public safety must be at the heart of all justice legislation. However, as we are legislating in an area that involves the liberty, or otherwise, of individuals, despite the emergency procedures it is the duty of everyone in this chamber to be vigilant. I want to go back a little way in this saga, to 1994, and to references, which are contained in the sheriff's judgment on the Ruddle case, to the treatment that was available or unavailable to Mr Ruddle in Carstairs. Pages 6 and 7 of that judgment make it clear that Mr Ruddle and his doctors were seeking treatment for what they considered to be his problems. In their view, treatment was out there somewhere; the problem was that it was not available in Carstairs. That issue was raised over a period of years by the medical officer who was responsible for Mr Ruddle. At one point, the possibility was raised of a transfer to Broadmoor, where it was considered that there was an appropriate unit for Mr Ruddle's treatment. That again emphasises the fact that treatment was available, and that the problem was one of access for Mr Ruddle. Carstairs hospital did not have the means to treat Mr Ruddle. Nevertheless, he could have been treated even if that treatment had to be elsewhere or bought in. It was the lack of available treatment that led to Mr Ruddle's release, not the fact that he was untreatable. It is from that perspective, bearing in mind the need for compliance with the European convention on human rights, that I view the legislation before us. Section 1 proposes to amend the powers that are available to sheriffs and ministers under section 64 of the Mental Health (Scotland) Act 1984. It includes a new test of public safety that must be satisfied when deliberating on the release or continued detention of restricted patients. The SNP has no problem with that and I am sure that there is widespread agreement and relief across the chamber that the bill addresses that point. My concerns, however, are whether the bill actually tackles the key issue of availability of treatment, because it seems to be absent, and whether therefore it is compliant with the European convention on human rights. There is no mention in the bill of any measures that would ensure that patients have access or the right to access treatment where that treatment exists. Indeed, there is no real health input into the bill, which is curious, since in the Ruddle case it seems that it was a failure in the provision of mental health services rather than the actual law that led to the appeal and, subsequently, to today's legislation. The responsible medical officer assigned to Ruddle had sought for five years to arrange suitable treatment and only failed to do so because of a lack of resources. The bill is silent on what mental health resources, if any, will be made available to patients detained under the new legislation. Will the minister now give an absolute assurance that where medical treatment is requested and is available, the mental health authorities will accede to that request? Section 1 also raises serious human rights questions. Article 7 of the European convention on human rights specifically guards against retrospective criminal legislation. Yet the bill is changing the goalposts for those who were convicted before 1 September this year. The rules governing appeals and discharge will be much tighter following the new legislation than they would have been at the time of such a person's conviction. I seek the reassurance of the minister that that aspect of section 1 does not amount to a breach of article 7. Section 1 may further open the bill to challenge in that it effectively authorises preventive detention. Let us say that a person suffering from a mental disorder commits an offence and is dealt with by way of a hospital order; he is then cured of that disorder and would normally expect to be discharged. The bill means that if the same person suffers from a second but different mental disorder, he can be detained if it is deemed that he presents a danger to the public, even though he had not committed a second offence. The key phrase is \"presenting a danger to the public\". That may be considered to be an appropriate way to proceed when someone has already shown a propensity for violence. We would probably all agree on that. Again, I seek an assurance from the minister and an explanation of the advice given on whether that situation, where someone is detained even though he has effectively served his time and committed no new offence, is in contravention of article 5 of the ECHR, which states that everyone has the right to liberty and security of person. Section 2 amends the Mental Health (Scotland) Act 1984 by introducing a new right of appeal to the Court of Session against the decision of a sheriff. I question why that part of the legislation is to be enacted at some point in the future at the discretion of the minister and not at the same time as the other sections of the bill. Perhaps a further explanation could be given. I am also concerned that section 3, in extending the definition of mental disorder to include personality disorder, makes it too wide. As has been said, a lot of personality disorders do not exhibit themselves in aggressive or violent behaviour. Would it not be appropriate to qualify personality disorder with that kind of phrase in order to ensure that we do not end up in a situation where people suffering from any personality disorder feel threatened or vulnerable? We would not want to cause fear and alarm when it was unnecessary. I welcome the eagerness of the Executive to tackle the loophole in the law in order to provide protection for public safety. I regret, however, that the first bill is emergency legislation. I hope that the extensive advice on the human rights implications has been taken and I trust that the minister will be able to provide the specific reassurances that I have asked for.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have already stated my concern that we are in the highly unsatisfactory position of having to legislate in an emergency manner for an area of law that has serious implications for human rights. The SNP is supporting this bill, as public safety must be at the heart of all justice legislation. However, as we are legislating in an area that involves the liberty, or otherwise, of individuals, despite the emergency procedures it is the duty of everyone in this chamber to be vigilant.

I want to go back a little way in this saga, to 1994, and to references, which are contained in the sheriff's judgment on the Ruddle case, to the treatment that was available or unavailable to Mr

Ruddle in Carstairs. Pages 6 and 7 of that judgment make it clear that Mr Ruddle and his doctors were seeking treatment for what they considered to be his problems. In their view, treatment was out there somewhere; the problem was that it was not available in Carstairs. That issue was raised over a period of years by the medical officer who was responsible for Mr Ruddle. At one point, the possibility was raised of a transfer to Broadmoor, where it was considered that there was an appropriate unit for Mr Ruddle's treatment. That again emphasises the fact that treatment was available, and that the problem was one of access for Mr Ruddle.

Carstairs hospital did not have the means to treat Mr Ruddle. Nevertheless, he could have been treated even if that treatment had to be elsewhere or bought in. It was the lack of available treatment that led to Mr Ruddle's release, not the fact that he was untreatable. It is from that perspective, bearing in mind the need for compliance with the European convention on human rights, that I view the legislation before us.

Section 1 proposes to amend the powers that are available to sheriffs and ministers under section 64 of the Mental Health (Scotland) Act 1984. It includes a new test of public safety that must be satisfied when deliberating on the release or continued detention of restricted patients.

The SNP has no problem with that and I am sure that there is widespread agreement and relief across the chamber that the bill addresses that point. My concerns, however, are whether the bill actually tackles the key issue of availability of treatment, because it seems to be absent, and whether therefore it is compliant with the European convention on human rights. There is no mention in the bill of any measures that would ensure that patients have access or the right to access treatment where that treatment exists. Indeed, there is no real health input into the bill, which is curious, since in the Ruddle case it seems that it was a failure in the provision of mental health services rather than the actual law that led to the appeal and, subsequently, to today's legislation.

The responsible medical officer assigned to Ruddle had sought for five years to arrange suitable treatment and only failed to do so because of a lack of resources. The bill is silent on what mental health resources, if any, will be made available to patients detained under the new legislation. Will the minister now give an absolute assurance that where medical treatment is requested and is available, the mental health authorities will accede to that request?

Section 1 also raises serious human rights questions. Article 7 of the European convention on human rights specifically guards against

retrospective criminal legislation. Yet the bill is changing the goalposts for those who were convicted before 1 September this year. The rules governing appeals and discharge will be much tighter following the new legislation than they would have been at the time of such a person's conviction. I seek the reassurance of the minister that that aspect of section 1 does not amount to a breach of article 7.

Section 1 may further open the bill to challenge in that it effectively authorises preventive detention. Let us say that a person suffering from a mental disorder commits an offence and is dealt with by way of a hospital order; he is then cured of that disorder and would normally expect to be discharged. The bill means that if the same person suffers from a second but different mental disorder, he can be detained if it is deemed that he presents a danger to the public, even though he had not committed a second offence. The key phrase is \"presenting a danger to the public\". That may be considered to be an appropriate way to proceed when someone has already shown a propensity for violence. We would probably all agree on that. Again, I seek an assurance from the minister and an explanation of the advice given on whether that situation, where someone is detained even though he has effectively served his time and committed no new offence, is in contravention of article 5 of the ECHR, which states that everyone has the right to liberty and security of person.

Section 2 amends the Mental Health (Scotland) Act 1984 by introducing a new right of appeal to the Court of Session against the decision of a sheriff. I question why that part of the legislation is to be enacted at some point in the future at the discretion of the minister and not at the same time as the other sections of the bill. Perhaps a further explanation could be given.

I am also concerned that section 3, in extending the definition of mental disorder to include personality disorder, makes it too wide. As has been said, a lot of personality disorders do not exhibit themselves in aggressive or violent behaviour. Would it not be appropriate to qualify personality disorder with that kind of phrase in order to ensure that we do not end up in a situation where people suffering from any personality disorder feel threatened or vulnerable? We would not want to cause fear and alarm when it was unnecessary.

I welcome the eagerness of the Executive to tackle the loophole in the law in order to provide protection for public safety. I regret, however, that the first bill is emergency legislation. I hope that the extensive advice on the human rights implications has been taken and I trust that the minister will be able to provide the specific reassurances that I have asked for.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C706445", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 248.0, "ContributionID": 706445, "EditedText": "That would be helpful.", "EditedTextHTML": "That would be helpful.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C706446", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 250.0, "ContributionID": 706446, "EditedText": "Beat you to it, Mr Reid. We doaccept that the bill is in part a stopgap measure to address an urgent need. I welcome the fact that the members of the Parliament have given it full backing. We must remember, however, that the MacLean and Millan committees are currently meeting, and I believe that it is important that the Parliament lays down the criterion that protection of the public comes first, as the Minister for Justice has said, and that the committees take that on board in their findings. When they report, perhaps there will be a need to get rid of this bill and provide another; perhaps we can build upon it from what we learn from MacLean and Millan. I say to them to take regard of the message coming from Parliament. The Parliament has greater difficulties than Westminster would have in putting through a bill such as this, because the European Court of Human Rights is far more restrictive in regard to legislation than at Westminster. There, legislation can be progressed and ultimately be compared against the implications of the European Court of Human Rights' findings. Regarding the bill itself, I have concerns over some points. Proposed subsection (A1), in section 1 of the bill, states that an appeal shall be refused: \"in order to protect the public from serious harm\".What is serious harm? Can it be defined? Will this in future create another confusion in the mind of a sheriff? I would like clarification on that, if not today, in the debates that follow next week. The burden of proof lies with the Scottish ministers. Who will they rely upon to provide the evidence for that burden of proof? I suspect that they will rely upon those with medical knowledge, and perhaps those employed at Carstairs, if a situation like the Ruddle case develops again. However, there may be some need for an independent medical mind to be brought to bear on this matter, so next week we will be seeking further clarification on whom the ministers will obtain information from. A possible fundamental measure could be a return to a situation that existed before the 1984 act was enacted, when secretaries of state took decisions on the release of individuals like Mr Ruddle from Carstairs and other institutions without reference to the courts. There may be some merit in re-examining that situation. It may contravene the European convention on human rights, but I feel that, given that the public wrath in the Ruddle case was turned against ministers and not against the sheriff, there is some merit in recognising that if ministers are to be the fall guys, they should take responsibility. Perhaps they are in a position to judge who should come out of institutions like Carstairs. I know that that would be a major change, and that it cuts across what my party's Government did in the 1984 act, but let us face it: time moves on, we examine situations as they develop and we act accordingly.", "EditedTextHTML": "Beat you to it, Mr Reid. We do

accept that the bill is in part a stopgap measure to address an urgent need. I welcome the fact that the members of the Parliament have given it full backing. We must remember, however, that the MacLean and Millan committees are currently meeting, and I believe that it is important that the Parliament lays down the criterion that protection of the public comes first, as the Minister for Justice has said, and that the committees take that on board in their findings. When they report, perhaps there will be a need to get rid of this bill and provide another; perhaps we can build upon it from what we learn from MacLean and Millan. I say to them to take regard of the message coming from Parliament.

The Parliament has greater difficulties than Westminster would have in putting through a bill such as this, because the European Court of Human Rights is far more restrictive in regard to legislation than at Westminster. There, legislation can be progressed and ultimately be compared against the implications of the European Court of Human Rights' findings.

Regarding the bill itself, I have concerns over some points. Proposed subsection (A1), in section 1 of the bill, states that an appeal shall be refused:

\"in order to protect the public from serious harm\".

What is serious harm? Can it be defined? Will this in future create another confusion in the mind of a sheriff? I would like clarification on that, if not today, in the debates that follow next week.

The burden of proof lies with the Scottish ministers. Who will they rely upon to provide the evidence for that burden of proof? I suspect that they will rely upon those with medical knowledge, and perhaps those employed at Carstairs, if a situation like the Ruddle case develops again. However, there may be some need for an independent medical mind to be brought to bear on this matter, so next week we will be seeking further clarification on whom the ministers will obtain information from.

A possible fundamental measure could be a return to a situation that existed before the 1984 act was enacted, when secretaries of state took decisions on the release of individuals like Mr Ruddle from Carstairs and other institutions without reference to the courts. There may be some merit in re-examining that situation. It may contravene the European convention on human rights, but I feel that, given that the public wrath in the Ruddle case was turned against ministers and not against the sheriff, there is some merit in recognising that if ministers are to be the fall guys, they should take responsibility. Perhaps they are in a position to judge who should come out of institutions like Carstairs. I know that that would be a major change, and that it cuts across what my party's Government did in the 1984 act, but let us face it: time moves on, we examine situations as they develop and we act accordingly.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2185E120P328C706450", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Brown, Robert", "ID": 2185, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robert Brown", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robert Brown (Glasgow) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 260.0, "ContributionID": 706450, "EditedText": "I, too, support the principle of the bill. Having listened to the debate on Mr Wallace's motion, I cannot help but feel that there is an element of split personality among those Opposition members who were baying for blood in the earlier debate, but who have now swung round to the other side and are, rightly, examining the human rights issues. The tenor of this debate has been much more satisfactory than that of the previous debate. In what I thought was one of the more distinguished speeches of the earlier debate, Margaret Ewing made some valid points. Like a number of members, she pointed out that in meeting the need for urgent legislation we should not create further loopholes. We must be aware of that in our examination of this bill. The other point, which others also touched on, was that there were worries on the other side of the fence. She mentioned special-needs individuals and people working in that sector who were concerned by the speed with which the legislation was going through. It is important that we study the principles of this matter in a balanced way. Phil Gallie said that the first duty of the law was to protect the public. That is true as far as it goes, and it is a major duty, but the first duty of this Parliament is to protect the liberty and the safety of the public. We should have particular concern for liberty. There has been some suggestion that the European convention on human rights is some sort of inconvenient addition to the hoops through which we have to go in this matter. I welcome the fact that the European convention is now effectively incorporated into Scots law; it is an intrinsic part of our domestic law and this Parliament has to have regard to that. We should be looking to deal with the spirit and the letter of the convention. When Mr Wallace referred to the bodies that he had consulted, I did not hear whether he had consulted anyone in the human rights field outside the Executive—the Scottish Human Rights Forum and Professor Alan Miller, for example, who are experts in this matter. I seek an assurance that people outside the Government who have expertise and who may take a critical view will be consulted, if they have not been already. It is important that the Executive sets a standard in this matter that will be followed in future. The point has been made that most people with mental illness are not a danger to anyone. That is an important, because, in dealing with people at the extreme end of the spectrum, we do not want to create human rights problems for others who may or may not be a nuisance to the public. I want to consider how personality disorder is defined. There is no definition of it in this amending bill and I am not certain that there is one in the original Mental Health Act (Scotland) 1984. We should consider closely what the phrase covers and exactly what we intend to deal with. Roseanna Cunningham mentioned treatment. The availability of treatment is one side of the coin, but another question is whether treatment is compulsory. In professional practice, I came across the disturbing results of people being treated with psychotic drugs. As an unpleasant side effect of those drugs, they ended up suffering from a problem called tardive dyskinesia, which is a sort of spasticity. It is important that we consider the fact that people who are detained under mental health legislation to some extent have their rights taken away. We must ensure that we strike the right balance in determining how they are dealt with under those semi-custodial arrangements. Those are all major issues and we must get the balance right. Some good points have been made in the debate and I hope that, as we discuss the bill in detail, we will continue to dwell on those issues and produce legislation that will stand the test of time until the full review. We do not want to produce hasty, loophole legislation that does not do the trick and raises more questions than it answers.", "EditedTextHTML": "I, too, support the principle of the bill. Having listened to the debate on Mr Wallace's motion, I cannot help but feel that there is an element of split personality among those Opposition members who were baying for blood in the earlier debate, but who have now swung round to the other side and are, rightly, examining the human rights issues. The tenor of this debate has been much more satisfactory than that of the previous debate.

In what I thought was one of the more distinguished speeches of the earlier debate, Margaret Ewing made some valid points. Like a number of members, she pointed out that in meeting the need for urgent legislation we should not create further loopholes. We must be aware of that in our examination of this bill. The other point, which others also touched on, was that there were worries on the other side of the fence. She mentioned special-needs individuals and people working in that sector who were concerned by the speed with which the legislation was going through.

It is important that we study the principles of this matter in a balanced way. Phil Gallie said that the first duty of the law was to protect the public. That is true as far as it goes, and it is a major duty, but the first duty of this Parliament is to protect the liberty and the safety of the public. We should have particular concern for liberty. There has been some suggestion that the European convention on human rights is some sort of inconvenient addition to the hoops through which we have to go in this matter. I welcome the fact that the European convention is now effectively incorporated into Scots law; it is an intrinsic part of our domestic law and this Parliament has to have regard to that. We should be looking to deal with the spirit and the letter of the convention.

When Mr Wallace referred to the bodies that he had consulted, I did not hear whether he had consulted anyone in the human rights field outside the Executive—the Scottish Human Rights Forum and Professor Alan Miller, for example, who are experts in this matter. I seek an assurance that people outside the Government who have expertise and who may take a critical view will be consulted, if they have not been already. It is important that the Executive sets a standard in this matter that will be followed in future.

The point has been made that most people with mental illness are not a danger to anyone. That is an important, because, in dealing with people at the extreme end of the spectrum, we do not want to create human rights problems for others who may or may not be a nuisance to the public.

I want to consider how personality disorder is defined. There is no definition of it in this amending bill and I am not certain that there is one in the original Mental Health Act (Scotland) 1984. We should consider closely what the phrase covers and exactly what we intend to deal with.

Roseanna Cunningham mentioned treatment. The availability of treatment is one side of the coin, but another question is whether treatment is compulsory. In professional practice, I came across the disturbing results of people being treated with psychotic drugs. As an unpleasant side effect of those drugs, they ended up suffering from a problem called tardive dyskinesia, which is a sort of spasticity. It is important that we consider the fact that people who are detained under mental health legislation to some extent have their rights taken away. We must ensure that we strike the right balance in determining how they are dealt with under those semi-custodial arrangements.

Those are all major issues and we must get the balance right. Some good points have been made in the debate and I hope that, as we discuss the bill in detail, we will continue to dwell on those issues and produce legislation that will stand the test of time until the full review. We do not want to produce hasty, loophole legislation that does not do the trick and raises more questions than it

answers.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C706461", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 290.0, "ContributionID": 706461, "EditedText": "I noticed Mr Gray looking round for his lectern. Could it be moved fairly quickly, please? A sufficiency of lecterns is being arranged and will be with us soon. I call on Mr Gray to wind up the debate.", "EditedTextHTML": "I noticed Mr Gray looking round for his lectern. Could it be moved fairly quickly, please? A sufficiency of lecterns is being arranged and will be with us soon.

I call on Mr Gray to wind up the debate.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2013E134P232C706455", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jackson, Gordon", "ID": 2013, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Govan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Gordon Jackson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Gordon Jackson (Glasgow Govan) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 275.0, "ContributionID": 706455, "EditedText": "I, too, welcome this bill in principle. I do so for a number of reasons. First, it is an appropriate and prompt response to an issue of public safety. We all agree that public safety is of great importance. More important, the bill begins to tackle something that has needed to be tackled for a long time. We are beginning to address how the law and the courts deal with mental health issues and, in particular, with mentally disordered offenders. It is fair to say that the way in which we have tended to deal with people who are mentally disordered has been something of a disgrace. Part of the problem has been that when psychiatrists and the courts have applied the law, they have been speaking different languages—there has been no meeting of minds. Richard Simpson is right: psychiatrists have moved on. Sometimes I think that they have moved on towards the next century, while the courts are still trying—on this issue—to get out of the last century. This is not simply a technical matter; on occasions, it has caused real injustice, as proper disposals have not been granted and cases have not been properly dealt with. This, then, is a step in the right direction. I very much welcome the minister's assurance that the bill is an interim measure. The problem is difficult, as the Lord Advocate acknowledged—plugging this so-called loophole is not easy—and it is particularly difficult to deal with in isolation. I agree with what was said about the obvious dangers of emergency legislation. The danger with this legislation is that in trying to solve one problem we will create others; we risk closing one door, but opening others. I must be totally frank: I am not particularly happy with parts of the bill. Like Richard Simpson, I have concerns about section 3. The idea that we, as legislators, can declare something to be a mental illness is not one with which I find myself entirely comfortable. It may be that, in due course, we will find better ways of solving this problem. However—and this is the important point—we must look for those better ways not in isolation, but in the context of dealing with the whole subject. It is important that we, as a Parliament, examine the reports of the MacLean and Millan committees and do not think that we have solved this problem for all time. I suspect that we have not. We will deal with the subject again but the bill is a step forward and an appropriate way in which to deal with the problem and the issue of public safety. On that basis, I have no hesitation in supporting this legislation as an interim measure.", "EditedTextHTML": "I, too, welcome this bill in principle. I do so for a number of reasons. First, it is an appropriate and prompt response to an issue of public safety. We all agree that public safety is of great importance. More important, the bill begins to tackle something that has needed to be tackled for a long time. We are beginning to address how the law and the courts deal with mental health issues and, in particular, with mentally disordered offenders.

It is fair to say that the way in which we have tended to deal with people who are mentally disordered has been something of a disgrace. Part of the problem has been that when psychiatrists and the courts have applied the law, they have been speaking different languages—there has been no meeting of minds. Richard Simpson is right: psychiatrists have moved on. Sometimes I think that they have moved on towards the next century, while the courts are still trying—on this issue—to get out of the last century. This is not simply a technical matter; on occasions, it has caused real injustice, as proper disposals have not been granted and cases have not been properly dealt with.

This, then, is a step in the right direction. I very much welcome the minister's assurance that the bill is an interim measure. The problem is difficult, as the Lord Advocate acknowledged—plugging this so-called loophole is not easy—and it is particularly difficult to deal with in isolation. I agree with what was said about the obvious dangers of emergency legislation. The danger with this legislation is that in trying to solve one problem we will create others; we risk closing one door, but opening others.

I must be totally frank: I am not particularly happy with parts of the bill. Like Richard Simpson, I have concerns about section 3. The idea that we, as legislators, can declare something to be a mental illness is not one with which I find myself entirely comfortable. It may be that, in due course, we will find better ways of solving this problem. However—and this is the important point—we must look for those better ways not in isolation, but in the context of dealing with the whole subject. It is important that we, as a Parliament, examine the reports of the MacLean and Millan committees and do not think that we have solved this problem for all time. I suspect that we have not.

We will deal with the subject again but the bill is a step forward and an appropriate way in which to deal with the problem and the issue of public safety. On that basis, I have no hesitation in supporting this legislation as an interim measure.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706469", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 305.0, "ContributionID": 706469, "EditedText": "That the Parliament agrees that (a), Rules 9.7.8 and", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament agrees that (a), Rules 9.7.8 and

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706476", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 315.0, "ContributionID": 706476, "EditedText": "Before we begin this afternoon's business, I would like to inform members that we are joined in the distinguished visitors gallery by Speaker J Dennis Hastert, the Speaker of the House of Representatives in Washington, and by five colleagues from the United States Congress. I am sure that members will wish to recognise them and to welcome them to our Parliament in the usual manner. Applause.", "EditedTextHTML": "Before we begin this afternoon's business, I would like to inform members that we are joined in the distinguished visitors gallery by Speaker J Dennis Hastert, the Speaker of the House of Representatives in Washington, and by five colleagues from the United States Congress. I am sure that members will wish to recognise them and to welcome them to our Parliament in the usual manner. [Applause.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C706480", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26729, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26730, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 320.0, "QuestionHeading": "“The Scotland Bill: A Guide”", "QuestionHeadingID": 26731, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 321.0, "DisplayOrder": 321.0, "ID": 26731, "ParentID": 26730 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 326.0, "ContributionID": 706480, "EditedText": "I thank the First Minister for his reply. Indeed the guide was widely welcomed, particularly the section on the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament. Will the First Minister advise his colleagues at Westminster—particularly Mr Brian Donohoe, with whom I am having a series of tedious media debates about the issue—that section 19 of the document says: \"The Parliament will have the power to debate both devolved and reserved matters\". As that statement from the First Minister—and from his previous incarnation as Secretary of State for Scotland—seems definitive, let us hope that, as far as this Parliament and Mr Donohoe are concerned, the matter is at an end. Applause.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the First Minister for his reply. Indeed the guide was widely welcomed, particularly the section on the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament. Will the First Minister advise his colleagues at Westminster—particularly Mr Brian Donohoe, with whom I am having a series of tedious media debates about the issue—that section 19 of the document says:

\"The Parliament will have the power to debate both devolved and reserved matters\".

As that statement from the First Minister—and from his previous incarnation as Secretary of State for Scotland—seems definitive, let us hope that, as far as this Parliament and Mr Donohoe are concerned, the matter is at an end. [Applause.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C706482", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26729, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26730, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 320.0, "QuestionHeading": "“The Scotland Bill: A Guide”", "QuestionHeadingID": 26731, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 321.0, "DisplayOrder": 321.0, "ID": 26731, "ParentID": 26730 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 330.0, "ContributionID": 706482, "EditedText": "The First Minister may also have some applause if he answers properly.", "EditedTextHTML": "The First Minister may also have some applause if he answers properly.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C706483", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26729, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26730, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 320.0, "QuestionHeading": "“The Scotland Bill: A Guide”", "QuestionHeadingID": 26731, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 321.0, "DisplayOrder": 321.0, "ID": 26731, "ParentID": 26730 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 332.0, "ContributionID": 706483, "EditedText": "I have made it clear on many occasions that the first priority of this Parliament is to deal with the areas that are devolved to it, which are its responsibilities and its duties. I am very sorry to hear that Mike Russell is involved in tedious public debates, but I am not surprised, as I understand that the Scottish National party is committed to the principle that it should oppose everything and propose nothing. I suggest that a solution to the problem would be for him to desist in the debate, which would also be widely welcomed in Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have made it clear on many occasions that the first priority of this Parliament is to deal with the areas that are devolved to it, which are its responsibilities and its duties. I am very sorry to hear that Mike Russell is involved in tedious public debates, but I am not surprised, as I understand that the Scottish National party is committed to the principle that it should oppose everything and propose nothing. I suggest that a solution to the problem would be for him to desist in the debate, which would also be widely welcomed in Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1986E53P206C706484", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26729, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26730, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 320.0, "QuestionHeading": "Tall Ships", "QuestionHeadingID": 26732, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 334.0, "DisplayOrder": 334.0, "ID": 26732, "ParentID": 26730 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeil, Duncan", "ID": 1986, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Greenock and Inverclyde" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan McNeil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "2. Mr Duncan McNeil (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 335.0, "ContributionID": 706484, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will congratulate Inverclyde Council and its partners on the staging of the recent tall ships event in Greenock. (S1O-204) The Minister for Children and Education (Mr Sam Galbraith): Yes, we would like to congratulate Inverclyde Council and everyone involved in making the event a huge success.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will congratulate Inverclyde Council and its partners on the staging of the recent tall ships event in Greenock. (S1O-204) The Minister for Children and Education (Mr Sam Galbraith): Yes, we would like to congratulate Inverclyde Council and everyone involved in making the event a huge success.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1770E82P108C706487", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26729, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26730, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 320.0, "QuestionHeading": "Business Start-ups (Internet)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26733, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "DisplayOrder": 341.0, "ID": 26733, "ParentID": 26730 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Thomson, Elaine", "ID": 1770, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Thomson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "3. Elaine Thomson (Aberdeen North) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 342.0, "ContributionID": 706487, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will make a statement on how it intends to use the internet to provide assistance for business start-ups. (S1O231)", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will make a statement on how it intends to use the internet to provide assistance for business start-ups. (S1O231)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1770E82P108C706489", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26729, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26730, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 320.0, "QuestionHeading": "Business Start-ups (Internet)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26733, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 341.0, "DisplayOrder": 341.0, "ID": 26733, "ParentID": 26730 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Thomson, Elaine", "ID": 1770, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Thomson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Elaine Thomson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 346.0, "ContributionID": 706489, "EditedText": "Is the minister aware of a new communications technology recently announced by British Telecom to provide high bandwidth internet access called asynchronous digital subscriber line, which will be rolled out to 10 UK cities by March next year? Does he agree that providing modern communications infrastructure, for instance in Aberdeen and the north-east, will encourage economic activity? That might help to balance the 10,000 jobs which a report this week suggested would be lost in the oil and gas industry in the next 10 years and—", "EditedTextHTML": "Is the minister aware of a new communications technology recently announced by British Telecom to provide high bandwidth internet access called asynchronous digital subscriber line, which will be rolled out to 10 UK cities by March next year? Does he agree that providing modern communications infrastructure, for instance in Aberdeen and the north-east, will encourage economic activity? That might help to balance the 10,000 jobs which a report this week suggested would be lost in the oil and gas industry in the next 10 years and—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1931E120P189C706494", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26729, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26730, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 320.0, "QuestionHeading": "Rail Services (Edinburgh–Shotts–Glasgow)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26734, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 352.0, "DisplayOrder": 352.0, "ID": 26734, "ParentID": 26730 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Muldoon, Bristow", "ID": 1931, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Livingston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bristow Muldoon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bristow Muldoon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 357.0, "ContributionID": 706494, "EditedText": "Does the minister know whether there is any intention to improve services on other lines connecting Edinburgh and Glasgow and, if there are, whether they will have any beneficial effect on other routes in the ScotRail network?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the minister know whether there is any intention to improve services on other lines connecting Edinburgh and Glasgow and, if there are, whether they will have any beneficial effect on other routes in the ScotRail network?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1775E171P452C706498", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26729, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26730, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 320.0, "QuestionHeading": "Information Strategy", "QuestionHeadingID": 26735, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 361.0, "DisplayOrder": 361.0, "ID": 26735, "ParentID": 26730 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeod, Fiona", "ID": 1775, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona McLeod", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona McLeod: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 366.0, "ContributionID": 706498, "EditedText": "I am delighted to hear that. Will the minister give members the remit of digital Scotland to ensure that it encompasses all areas of the information profession, which is obviously interested in this, and the members of any working group that will be set up to look at that?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am delighted to hear that. Will the minister give members the remit of digital Scotland to ensure that it encompasses all areas of the information profession, which is obviously interested in this, and the members of any working group that will be set up to look at that?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2080E130P217C706502", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26729, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26730, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 320.0, "QuestionHeading": "CCTV", "QuestionHeadingID": 26736, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 374.0, "DisplayOrder": 374.0, "ID": 26736, "ParentID": 26730 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lamont, Johann", "ID": 2080, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Pollok" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Johann Lamont", "SpeakerDisplayName": "6. Johann Lamont (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 375.0, "ContributionID": 706502, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has to monitor the effectiveness of town and city centre closed-circuit television systems. (S1O-223) The Deputy Minister for Justice (Angus MacKay): The Scottish Executive central research unit is conducting research into the effectiveness of CCTV schemes funded by the former Scottish Office—now Scottish Executive—CCTV challenge competition. An initial findings report will be available in the autumn, followed by a comprehensive report thereafter.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has to monitor the effectiveness of town and city centre closed-circuit television systems. (S1O-223) The Deputy Minister for Justice (Angus MacKay): The Scottish Executive central research unit is conducting research into the effectiveness of CCTV schemes funded by the former Scottish Office—now Scottish Executive—CCTV challenge competition. An initial findings report will be available in the autumn, followed by a comprehensive report thereafter.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706504", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26729, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26730, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 320.0, "QuestionHeading": "CCTV", "QuestionHeadingID": 26736, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 374.0, "DisplayOrder": 374.0, "ID": 26736, "ParentID": 26730 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 379.0, "ContributionID": 706504, "EditedText": "That is enough.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is enough.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1751E163P286C706506", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26729, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26730, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 320.0, "QuestionHeading": "Rail Services (Glasgow to Cumbernauld)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26737, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 383.0, "DisplayOrder": 383.0, "ID": 26737, "ParentID": 26730 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Craigie, Cathie", "ID": 1751, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Cumbernauld and Kilsyth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Cathie Craigie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "7. Cathie Craigie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 384.0, "ContributionID": 706506, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what funding it has provided to enable improvements to be made to the Glasgow to Cumbernauld rail link and whether it intends to fund any new stations on this route. (S1O-222) The Minister for Transport and the Environment (Sarah Boyack): An application to the public transport fund has been lodged by North Lanarkshire Council for the opening of a new station at Gartcosh. I await the outcome of the application with interest.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what funding it has provided to enable improvements to be made to the Glasgow to Cumbernauld rail link and whether it intends to fund any new stations on this route. (S1O-222) The Minister for Transport and the Environment (Sarah Boyack): An application to the public transport fund has been lodged by North Lanarkshire Council for the opening of a new station at Gartcosh. I await the outcome of the application with interest.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1751E163P286C706509", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26729, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26730, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 320.0, "QuestionHeading": "Rail Services (Glasgow to Cumbernauld)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26737, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 383.0, "DisplayOrder": 383.0, "ID": 26737, "ParentID": 26730 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Craigie, Cathie", "ID": 1751, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Cumbernauld and Kilsyth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Cathie Craigie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Cathie Craigie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 390.0, "ContributionID": 706509, "EditedText": "I am sure that the improvements to the station and to parking facilities, combined with the improvements to the timetable, will encourage more people to use the railway. However, will the minister continue to work with all those concerned to deliver a new station at Abronhill? Will she inform Parliament of the Executive's plans for further investment in our railway network?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sure that the improvements to the station and to parking facilities, combined with the improvements to the timetable, will encourage more people to use the railway. However, will the minister continue to work with all those concerned to deliver a new station at Abronhill? Will she inform Parliament of the Executive's plans for further investment in our railway network?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3890514+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C706518", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26729, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26730, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 320.0, "QuestionHeading": "Parliamentary Questions", "QuestionHeadingID": 26740, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 408.0, "DisplayOrder": 408.0, "ID": 26740, "ParentID": 26730 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Simpson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 411.0, "ContributionID": 706518, "EditedText": "Given that more than 1,300 questions have been asked, amounting to an expenditure of over £130,000 by this Parliament on questions—according to information obtained in response to a previous question—will the Scottish Executive consider, when responding to Parliamentary questions, indicating whether the information requested is already in the public domain, in order to ensure that we are making appropriate use of public funds and not wasting them?", "EditedTextHTML": "Given that more than 1,300 questions have been asked, amounting to an expenditure of over £130,000 by this Parliament on questions—according to information obtained in response to a previous question—will the Scottish Executive consider, when responding to Parliamentary questions, indicating whether the information requested is already in the public domain, in order to ensure that we are making appropriate use of public funds and not wasting them?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1889E118P162C706522", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26729, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26730, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 320.0, "QuestionHeading": "Tourism", "QuestionHeadingID": 26741, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 415.0, "DisplayOrder": 415.0, "ID": 26741, "ParentID": 26730 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morrison, Mr Alasdair", "ID": 1889, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Western Isles" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morrison", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Morrison: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 420.0, "ContributionID": 706522, "EditedText": "As Mrs Scanlon knows, we are currently consulting on tourism and we are delighted that we have had 400 responses to date. Anecdotal evidence suggests that fuel might possibly impact on the number of visitors to the Highlands, but that is only part of the matter. A great number of other considerations have to be taken into account, such as the price and quality of accommodation. Those issues are being addressed in our strategy and in our consultation exercise.", "EditedTextHTML": "As Mrs Scanlon knows, we are currently consulting on tourism and we are delighted that we have had 400 responses to date. Anecdotal evidence suggests that fuel might possibly impact on the number of visitors to the Highlands, but that is only part of the matter. A great number of other considerations have to be taken into account, such as the price and quality of accommodation. Those issues are being addressed in our strategy and in our consultation exercise.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2234E7P20C706524", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26729, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26730, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 320.0, "QuestionHeading": "Housing", "QuestionHeadingID": 26742, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 422.0, "DisplayOrder": 422.0, "ID": 26742, "ParentID": 26730 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Aitken, Bill", "ID": 2234, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bill Aitken", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bill Aitken: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 425.0, "ContributionID": 706524, "EditedText": "I am obliged to the minister for her response. Does she agree that the lack of investment in public sector housing is one of the major issues facing her remit? Does she also agree that the housing partnership proposals, as outlined in that green paper and as first enunciated by my friend Lord James Douglas- Hamilton when he was the housing minister, provide an appropriate response to that difficulty? In conclusion, will she undertake to expedite matters?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am obliged to the minister for her response. Does she agree that the lack of investment in public sector housing is one of the major issues facing her remit? Does she also agree that the housing partnership proposals, as outlined in that green paper and as first enunciated by my friend Lord James Douglas- Hamilton when he was the housing minister, provide an appropriate response to that difficulty? In conclusion, will she undertake to expedite matters?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C706526", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26729, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26730, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 320.0, "QuestionHeading": "Cattle Cull", "QuestionHeadingID": 26743, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 429.0, "DisplayOrder": 429.0, "ID": 26743, "ParentID": 26730 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "13. Bruce Crawford (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 430.0, "ContributionID": 706526, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive how many storage units exist in Scotland containing animal remains resulting from the BSE cattle cull and what are their locations. (S1O-201)", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive how many storage units exist in Scotland containing animal remains resulting from the BSE cattle cull and what are their locations. (S1O-201)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C706531", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26729, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26730, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 320.0, "QuestionHeading": "Cattle Cull", "QuestionHeadingID": 26743, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 429.0, "DisplayOrder": 429.0, "ID": 26743, "ParentID": 26730 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ross Finnie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 440.0, "ContributionID": 706531, "EditedText": "I can give a categorical assurance on that.", "EditedTextHTML": "I can give a categorical assurance on that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1805E13P109C706532", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26729, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26730, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 320.0, "QuestionHeading": "Disabled People", "QuestionHeadingID": 26744, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 442.0, "DisplayOrder": 442.0, "ID": 26744, "ParentID": 26730 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Whitefield, Karen", "ID": 1805, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Airdrie and Shotts" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Karen Whitefield", "SpeakerDisplayName": "14. Karen Whitefield (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 443.0, "ContributionID": 706532, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what action it is taking to improve public services for the disabled. (S1O-226) The Deputy Minister for Communities (Jackie Baillie): A new equality unit is being set up within the Scottish Executive. Its remit will include promotion of a greater awareness of the needs of people with disabilities in service planning and delivery.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what action it is taking to improve public services for the disabled. (S1O-226) The Deputy Minister for Communities (Jackie Baillie): A new equality unit is being set up within the Scottish Executive. Its remit will include promotion of a greater awareness of the needs of people with disabilities in service planning and delivery.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1805E13P109C706533", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26729, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26730, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 320.0, "QuestionHeading": "Disabled People", "QuestionHeadingID": 26744, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 442.0, "DisplayOrder": 442.0, "ID": 26744, "ParentID": 26730 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Whitefield, Karen", "ID": 1805, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Airdrie and Shotts" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Karen Whitefield", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Karen Whitefield: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 445.0, "ContributionID": 706533, "EditedText": "Will the minister agree with me that people with disabilities need equal access to services, and the independence to access those services? Some of my constituents with disabilities are currently working in partnership with the local authority to establish a shop mobility scheme in Airdrie which will enable them to shop in the town and to access the local authority's service centres for social work and housing. I hope that the minister—", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister agree with me that people with disabilities need equal access to services, and the independence to access those services? Some of my constituents with disabilities are currently working in partnership with the local authority to establish a shop mobility scheme in Airdrie which will enable them to shop in the town and to access the local authority's service centres for social work and housing. I hope that the minister—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706534", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26729, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26730, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 320.0, "QuestionHeading": "Disabled People", "QuestionHeadingID": 26744, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 442.0, "DisplayOrder": 442.0, "ID": 26744, "ParentID": 26730 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 447.0, "ContributionID": 706534, "EditedText": "We must have a question.", "EditedTextHTML": "We must have a question.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1805E13P109C706535", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26729, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26730, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 320.0, "QuestionHeading": "Disabled People", "QuestionHeadingID": 26744, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 442.0, "DisplayOrder": 442.0, "ID": 26744, "ParentID": 26730 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Whitefield, Karen", "ID": 1805, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Airdrie and Shotts" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Karen Whitefield", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Karen Whitefield: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 449.0, "ContributionID": 706535, "EditedText": "There is a question. I hope—", "EditedTextHTML": "There is a question. I hope—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2154E194P299C706540", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26729, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26730, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 320.0, "QuestionHeading": "Employment (Forth Valley, Fife and Lothian)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26745, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 457.0, "DisplayOrder": 457.0, "ID": 26745, "ParentID": 26730 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stephen, Nicol", "ID": 2154, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Nicol Stephen", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning (Nicol Stephen): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 460.0, "ContributionID": 706540, "EditedText": "The ministers and officials in the enterprise and lifelong learning department maintain a regular dialogue with Scottish Enterprise and with local enterprise companies to discuss the promotion of economic development and the identification of new employment opportunities. One very good example in Margo MacDonald's area of Lothian, which also involved Locate in Scotland, was the announcement—with the First Minister—earlier this week of 1,500 new jobs at the Bathgate plant of Quintiles.", "EditedTextHTML": "The ministers and officials in the enterprise and lifelong learning department maintain a regular dialogue with Scottish Enterprise and with local enterprise companies to discuss the promotion of economic development and the identification of new employment opportunities. One very good example in Margo MacDonald's area of Lothian, which also involved Locate in Scotland, was the announcement—with the First Minister—earlier this week of 1,500 new jobs at the Bathgate plant of Quintiles.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1828E200P487C706543", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26729, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26730, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 320.0, "QuestionHeading": "Employment (Forth Valley, Fife and Lothian)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26745, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 457.0, "DisplayOrder": 457.0, "ID": 26745, "ParentID": 26730 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacDonald, Margo", "ID": 1828, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margo MacDonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms MacDonald: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 466.0, "ContributionID": 706543, "EditedText": "I am flattering Henry, with all due respect. Laughter. Is Nicol Stephen able to share with us the result of any discussions between public agencies within his ministerial domain and the management of Babcock at Rosyth about the future size of its work force?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am flattering Henry, with all due respect. [Laughter.]

Is Nicol Stephen able to share with us the result of any discussions between public agencies within his ministerial domain and the management of Babcock at Rosyth about the future size of its work force?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706544", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26729, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26730, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 320.0, "QuestionHeading": "Employment (Forth Valley, Fife and Lothian)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26745, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 457.0, "DisplayOrder": 457.0, "ID": 26745, "ParentID": 26730 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 468.0, "ContributionID": 706544, "EditedText": "Even flattery must be in the form of a question.", "EditedTextHTML": "Even flattery must be in the form of a question.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706549", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26729, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26730, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 320.0, "QuestionHeading": "Employment (Forth Valley, Fife and Lothian)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26745, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 457.0, "DisplayOrder": 457.0, "ID": 26745, "ParentID": 26730 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 478.0, "ContributionID": 706549, "EditedText": "I will treat that as a supplementary question rather than as a point of order.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will treat that as a supplementary question rather than as a point of order.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2154E194P299C706550", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26729, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26730, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 320.0, "QuestionHeading": "Employment (Forth Valley, Fife and Lothian)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26745, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 457.0, "DisplayOrder": 457.0, "ID": 26745, "ParentID": 26730 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stephen, Nicol", "ID": 2154, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Nicol Stephen", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicol Stephen: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 480.0, "ContributionID": 706550, "EditedText": "I think that I explained that, at this stage, because of the confidential nature of discussions—", "EditedTextHTML": "I think that I explained that, at this stage, because of the confidential nature of discussions—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1828E200P487C706551", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26729, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26730, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 320.0, "QuestionHeading": "Employment (Forth Valley, Fife and Lothian)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26745, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 457.0, "DisplayOrder": 457.0, "ID": 26745, "ParentID": 26730 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacDonald, Margo", "ID": 1828, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margo MacDonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms MacDonald: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 482.0, "ContributionID": 706551, "EditedText": "There are discussions?", "EditedTextHTML": "There are discussions?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1823E145P193C706554", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26729, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26730, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 320.0, "QuestionHeading": "Warm Deal Grants", "QuestionHeadingID": 26746, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 486.0, "DisplayOrder": 486.0, "ID": 26746, "ParentID": 26730 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jamieson, Margaret", "ID": 1823, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Kilmarnock and Loudoun" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Jamieson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Margaret Jamieson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 489.0, "ContributionID": 706554, "EditedText": "How does the scheme relate to other initiatives to tackle fuel poverty?", "EditedTextHTML": "How does the scheme relate to other initiatives to tackle fuel poverty?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2223E203P342C706556", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26729, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26730, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 320.0, "QuestionHeading": "Economic Aid (Unst)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26747, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 493.0, "DisplayOrder": 493.0, "ID": 26747, "ParentID": 26730 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scott, Tavish", "ID": 2223, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Shetland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tavish Scott", "SpeakerDisplayName": "17. Tavish Scott (Shetland) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 494.0, "ContributionID": 706556, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it is working with the Ministry of Defence in preparing a plan for economic aid to the island of Unst to help replace the jobs to be lost at the RAF Saxa Vord base, and when an announcement on the plan will be made to the people of Unst. (S1O-191) The Deputy Minister for Highlands and Islands and Gaelic (Mr Alasdair Morrison): We will work closely with the Ministry of Defence to assess responses to its current consultation, and will explore with the local community and agencies what action is appropriate.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it is working with the Ministry of Defence in preparing a plan for economic aid to the island of Unst to help replace the jobs to be lost at the RAF Saxa Vord base, and when an announcement on the plan will be made to the people of Unst. (S1O-191) The Deputy Minister for Highlands and Islands and Gaelic (Mr Alasdair Morrison): We will work closely with the Ministry of Defence to assess responses to its current consultation, and will explore with the local community and agencies what action is appropriate.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1751E163P286C706562", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26748, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 500.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 500.0, "ID": 26748, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Craigie, Cathie", "ID": 1751, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Cumbernauld and Kilsyth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Cathie Craigie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Cathie Craigie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 507.0, "ContributionID": 706562, "EditedText": "The order for business surely allows for one supplementary question. Today members have asked more than one supplementary question.", "EditedTextHTML": "The order for business surely allows for one supplementary question. Today members have asked more than one supplementary question.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C706564", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26748, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 500.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26749, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 511.0, "QuestionHeading": "Transport", "QuestionHeadingID": 26750, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 512.0, "DisplayOrder": 512.0, "ID": 26750, "ParentID": 26749 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "1. Mr Alex Salmond (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 513.0, "ContributionID": 706564, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what are the details of its transport policy. (S1O-194) The First Minister (Donald Dewar): I confess, Sir David, that that sounds like an invitation to a long answer. You will be glad to hear that I will resist that temptation. The Administration is committed to providing an integrated system, with improved transport services and genuine choice for the public, and to recognising the need to meet high environmental standards and to tackle the problems of gridlock and urban congestion.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what are the details of its transport policy. (S1O-194) The First Minister (Donald Dewar): I confess, Sir David, that that sounds like an invitation to a long answer. You will be glad to hear that I will resist that temptation.

The Administration is committed to providing an integrated system, with improved transport services and genuine choice for the public, and to recognising the need to meet high environmental standards and to tackle the problems of gridlock and urban congestion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C706573", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26748, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 500.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26749, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 511.0, "QuestionHeading": "Transport", "QuestionHeadingID": 26750, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 512.0, "DisplayOrder": 512.0, "ID": 26750, "ParentID": 26749 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 531.0, "ContributionID": 706573, "EditedText": "—might be involved in a charge of £900 a year. Will the First Minister confirm that figure, or would he care to put a ceiling on Dewar's toll tax?", "EditedTextHTML": "—might be involved in a charge of £900 a year. Will the First Minister confirm that figure, or would he care to put a ceiling on Dewar's toll tax?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C706579", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26748, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 500.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26749, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 511.0, "QuestionHeading": "Governance of Scotland", "QuestionHeadingID": 26751, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 543.0, "DisplayOrder": 543.0, "ID": 26751, "ParentID": 26749 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "2. David McLetchie (Lothians) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 544.0, "ContributionID": 706579, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive how its guidelines on collective decision making will improve the governance of Scotland. (S1O-236) The First Minister (Donald Dewar): I take the view that the whole devolution scheme improves the governance of Scotland and, although I think that the views of David McLetchie and his colleagues are occasionally ambiguous, I would like to think that he would join me in that. Collective responsibility is a widely accepted mark of cabinet government. It contributes to and encourages stable, responsive government fully accountable to the Parliament. The guidance on collective decision making sets out a sensible framework for cabinet government; its publication is a mark of our commitment to open government, and I would have thought it would have been welcomed.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive how its guidelines on collective decision making will improve the governance of Scotland. (S1O-236) The First Minister (Donald Dewar): I take the view that the whole devolution scheme improves the governance of Scotland and, although I think that the views of David McLetchie and his colleagues are occasionally ambiguous, I would like to think that he would join me in that. Collective responsibility is a widely accepted mark of cabinet government. It contributes to and encourages stable, responsive government fully

accountable to the Parliament. The guidance on collective decision making sets out a sensible framework for cabinet government; its publication is a mark of our commitment to open government, and I would have thought it would have been welcomed.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C706582", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26748, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 500.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26749, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 511.0, "QuestionHeading": "Governance of Scotland", "QuestionHeadingID": 26751, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 543.0, "DisplayOrder": 543.0, "ID": 26751, "ParentID": 26749 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 550.0, "ContributionID": 706582, "EditedText": "We note that the First Minister distinctly failed to answer the question. It was not about tuition fees, but about whether the principles of collective responsibility set out in his own document were being undermined by his Deputy First Minister. On the principle of collective responsibility, is the welcome suggestion from the Minister for Rural Affairs about a package of aid to sheep farmers the official policy of the Executive, or is it a breach on his part of the principle of collective responsibility, and a spot of freelancing initiative? If it is the policy of this Administration, will the First Minister now be telling Mr McConnell to sharpen his pencil? He is already finding £80 million to fund one set of Liberal Democrat policies. What budgets will he be cutting to fund another one?", "EditedTextHTML": "We note that the First Minister distinctly failed to answer the question. It was not about tuition fees, but about whether the principles of collective responsibility set out in his own document were being undermined by his Deputy First Minister.

On the principle of collective responsibility, is the welcome suggestion from the Minister for Rural Affairs about a package of aid to sheep farmers the official policy of the Executive, or is it a breach on his part of the principle of collective responsibility, and a spot of freelancing initiative? If it is the policy of this Administration, will the First Minister now be telling Mr McConnell to sharpen his pencil? He is already finding £80 million to fund one set of Liberal Democrat policies. What budgets will he be cutting to fund another one?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C706585", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26748, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 500.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26749, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 511.0, "QuestionHeading": "Governance of Scotland", "QuestionHeadingID": 26751, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 543.0, "DisplayOrder": 543.0, "ID": 26751, "ParentID": 26749 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 556.0, "ContributionID": 706585, "EditedText": "No, I do not, but that is one of the differences between the nationalists and ourselves. I entirely accept that Dorothy-Grace Elder has a very individual, sometimes even idiosyncratic, point of view about the governance of Scotland. She is setting up a test of nationalism. We have a devolved system. If she is worried about what is happening in that field, I ask her to welcome—as I am sure she will—the working families tax credit, which comes into force in October and will help about 130,000 low-paid families in Scotland to the benefit of around £170 million, on best estimates. That is the kind of practical way in which, working together with Westminster, we are trying to tackle the problems of deprivation, unlock opportunity and allow people in this country to recognise and realise their potential.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I do not, but that is one of the differences between the nationalists and ourselves. I entirely accept that Dorothy-Grace Elder has a very individual, sometimes even idiosyncratic, point of view about the governance of Scotland.

She is setting up a test of nationalism. We have a devolved system. If she is worried about what is happening in that field, I ask her to welcome—as I am sure she will—the working families tax credit, which comes into force in October and will help about 130,000 low-paid families in Scotland to the benefit of around £170 million, on best estimates. That is the kind of practical way in which, working together with Westminster, we are trying to tackle the problems of deprivation, unlock opportunity and allow people in this country to recognise and realise their potential.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706587", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26748, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 500.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26749, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 511.0, "QuestionHeading": "Governance of Scotland", "QuestionHeadingID": 26751, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 543.0, "DisplayOrder": 543.0, "ID": 26751, "ParentID": 26749 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 560.0, "ContributionID": 706587, "EditedText": "Order. I did not call you for another supplementary.", "EditedTextHTML": "Order. I did not call you for another supplementary.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2123E103P242C706588", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26748, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 500.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26749, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 511.0, "QuestionHeading": "Scottish Civic Forum", "QuestionHeadingID": 26752, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 562.0, "DisplayOrder": 562.0, "ID": 26752, "ParentID": 26749 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Chisholm, Malcolm", "ID": 2123, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh North and Leith" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Malcolm Chisholm", "SpeakerDisplayName": "3. Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 563.0, "ContributionID": 706588, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what action it proposes to take in relation to funding the Scottish Civic Forum. (S1O-200) The Minister for Finance (Mr Jack McConnell): The partnership agreement confirms the Executive's commitment to encouraging the development of the Scottish Civic Forum. I will meet representatives of the civic forum shortly to discuss the possibilities for support.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what action it proposes to take in relation to funding the Scottish Civic Forum. (S1O-200) The Minister for Finance (Mr Jack McConnell): The partnership agreement confirms the Executive's commitment to encouraging the development of the Scottish Civic Forum. I will meet representatives of the civic forum shortly to discuss the possibilities for support.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C706590", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26748, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 500.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26749, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 511.0, "QuestionHeading": "Scottish Civic Forum", "QuestionHeadingID": 26752, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 562.0, "DisplayOrder": 562.0, "ID": 26752, "ParentID": 26749 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 567.0, "ContributionID": 706590, "EditedText": "As colleagues in the chamber are already aware as a result of the debate that took place in June, there is a difficulty in identifying a statutory responsibility that allows us to provide core funding for the forum. That is why we are meeting representatives of the forum to examine the issues of funding and the other ways in which we can support their organisation, and to examine the overall issue of civic engagement with this Parliament and with the Executive in the months and years ahead.", "EditedTextHTML": "As colleagues in the chamber are already aware as a result of the debate that took place in June, there is a difficulty in identifying a statutory responsibility that allows us to provide core funding for the forum. That is why we are meeting representatives of the forum to examine the issues of funding and the other ways in which we can support their organisation, and to examine the overall issue of civic engagement with this Parliament and with the Executive in the months and years ahead.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1878E208P502C706593", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26748, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 500.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26749, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 511.0, "QuestionHeading": "Scottish Civic Forum", "QuestionHeadingID": 26752, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 562.0, "DisplayOrder": 562.0, "ID": 26752, "ParentID": 26749 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Dr Winnie", "ID": 1878, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Winnie Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Winnie Ewing (Highlands and Islands) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 573.0, "ContributionID": 706593, "EditedText": "On a point of order. Is it in order for the First Minister to refer to my party by the wrong name, which he has a bad habit of doing? If it is in order, we could all play this game and a wrong name for his party springs to mind—the ex- socialist party.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. Is it in order for the First Minister to refer to my party by the wrong name, which he has a bad habit of doing? If it is in order, we could all play this game and a wrong name for his party springs to mind—the ex- socialist party.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706633", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Cultural Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26753, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 581.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 581.0, "ID": 26753, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 673.0, "ContributionID": 706633, "EditedText": "Ms Brankin has the last two minutes.", "EditedTextHTML": "Ms Brankin has the last two minutes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C706606", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Cultural Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26753, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 581.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 581.0, "ID": 26753, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Monteith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 603.0, "ContributionID": 706606, "EditedText": "Yes, indeed. Such conformity and patronage risk creating a circle of pseudo-artistic sycophants who are mainly interested in pleasing politicians. As a matter of fact, I had breakfast with them the other day. A national cultural strategy could lead to a concept of official art, as happened in the defunct Soviet Union. Continual debate about our culture, something that was impossible in the east European soviet states, is what is required. To borrow from Trotsky, culture is permanent revolution. We should debate the poor understanding of Scottish and British history by today's schoolchildren. It is a sad fact that many children do not know who Robert the Bruce was, or indeed David Livingstone, and that they know of William Wallace only through a Hollywood version of the truth. We should debate the concept of excellence, as John Tusa did during the international festival of the arts, but I notice that excellence is not mentioned in the cultural strategy document. We should also debate the need for a national theatre. Although I notice that Kenny Gibson is not here, I mention for his benefit that I have worked for the Royal Lyceum Theatre Company and for the Tron Theatre. We have national companies for dance, for opera and for music, but we have no national theatre. Our regional theatres manage very well on significantly less funding than is available to theatre companies in Nottingham, Leeds, Sheffield and other English cities. Indeed, it could be argued that regional producing theatres in Scotland would be better to seek funds from an English arts council. A national Scottish theatre company, created as an addition to our existing producing companies, would showcase our finest talents and provide a vital export when touring abroad. I have no doubt that many members enjoyed some theatre during the international festival of the arts. How many of them realised that the actors, many of them well-known names, in official productions such as \"The Speculator\", were earning about £5 an hour? The talent is here but the money is not, and that is why many actors gravitate towards London. A national theatre could help to change that. It would encourage excellence and have many positive spin-offs, not least for our infant film industry. Debate is necessary, as are clear guidelines for how the Government and its agencies will work in the cultural field. We will support a cultural strategy that preserves and promotes our historical past and encourages debate about the future. However, the Government can no more pick winners than it can put the Bay City Rollers back at the top of the charts.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes, indeed. Such conformity and patronage risk creating a circle of pseudo-artistic sycophants who are mainly interested in pleasing politicians. As a matter of fact, I had breakfast with them the other day.

A national cultural strategy could lead to a concept of official art, as happened in the defunct Soviet Union. Continual debate about our culture, something that was impossible in the east European soviet states, is what is required. To borrow from Trotsky, culture is permanent revolution.

We should debate the poor understanding of Scottish and British history by today's schoolchildren. It is a sad fact that many children do not know who Robert the Bruce was, or indeed David Livingstone, and that they know of William Wallace only through a Hollywood version of the truth.

We should debate the concept of excellence, as John Tusa did during the international festival of the arts, but I notice that excellence is not mentioned in the cultural strategy document.

We should also debate the need for a national theatre. Although I notice that Kenny Gibson is not here, I mention for his benefit that I have worked for the Royal Lyceum Theatre Company and for the Tron Theatre.

We have national companies for dance, for opera and for music, but we have no national theatre. Our regional theatres manage very well on significantly less funding than is available to theatre companies in Nottingham, Leeds, Sheffield and other English cities. Indeed, it could be argued that regional producing theatres in Scotland would be better to seek funds from an English arts council. A national Scottish theatre company, created as an addition to our existing producing companies, would showcase our finest talents and provide a vital export when touring abroad.

I have no doubt that many members enjoyed some theatre during the international festival of the arts. How many of them realised that the actors, many of them well-known names, in official productions such as \"The Speculator\", were earning about £5 an hour?

The talent is here but the money is not, and that is why many actors gravitate towards London. A national theatre could help to change that. It would encourage excellence and have many positive spin-offs, not least for our infant film industry.

Debate is necessary, as are clear guidelines for how the Government and its agencies will work in the cultural field. We will support a cultural strategy that preserves and promotes our historical past and encourages debate about the future. However, the Government can no more pick winners than it can put the Bay City Rollers back at the top of the charts.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706628", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Cultural Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26753, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 581.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 581.0, "ID": 26753, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Several members rose—", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Several members rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 663.0, "ContributionID": 706628, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2051E74P295C706613", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Cultural Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26753, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 581.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 581.0, "ID": 26753, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Welsh, Ian", "ID": 2051, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ayr" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ian Welsh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ian Welsh (Ayr) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 623.0, "ContributionID": 706613, "EditedText": "In view of Mike Russell's comments about football as culture and given Rugby Park's undoubted status as a venue for live, participative and enthralling theatre—more Sturm und Drang than son et lumière—perhaps I should mention my connection with Kilmarnock Football Club as a registrable interest. I, too, welcome the minister's call for a national consultation on cultural strategy, but in this instance at least, I may have been seduced by the sheer poetry of Mike Russell and Brian Monteith's welcome of the document. They are not quite yet the Fran and Anna of Scottish cultural opposition, but they are getting there. The Parliament has many concerns—the economy, education, health, poverty, social inclusion—but the search for national identity is no doubt the most productive and purposeful way in which we can energise this country's cultures. I say cultures because we must recognise that there are many Scotlands and that by seeking a commonly held cultural vision for Scotland and working in parallel with the existing myriad, disparate, critically worthwhile initiatives, we can do much to bring the Scottish people together. I hope that the consultation process will identify some practical issues and initiatives, such as the real need to bolster and boost arts provision in schools. I hope that the process will pick up, as Ian said, on the crucial need to celebrate and nurture our home-grown talent. I believe, and I am with Mike Russell on this, that we must ensure that the notion of cultural diversity is alive in our established arts institutions. I also believe strongly that we must build on the work of the Edinburgh festival to create a coterie of festivals, throughout the country, as positive and vibrant celebrations of life in Scotland. I commend all members to visit Ayr during the next month to visit the Septembayr initiative. As Mike Russell said, we must develop the anarchic spirit and ensure that our children are connected. They must be encouraged to be creative and we must ensure that their imaginations are untethered by the harsh grind of the real world. I challenge all the participants in this debate to be equally anarchic in the consultation process and to ensure, with all Labour members, that culture is broad, popular and engaging. We must ensure that the end point of the consultation is not a five-year plan but—if I may be metaphorical for a moment—a year-long national festival. In conclusion, I have two practical questions. I come from a local authority background and I am proud of the way in which South Ayrshire Council has continued to be able to support the arts, notwithstanding the resource constraints that it faced. How important will the role of local authorities be in the provision of arts and culture? As a corollary to that, how can we ensure that arts and culture form an integral part of social inclusion?", "EditedTextHTML": "In view of Mike Russell's comments about football as culture and given Rugby Park's undoubted status as a venue for live, participative and enthralling theatre—more Sturm und Drang than son et lumière—perhaps I should mention my connection with Kilmarnock Football Club as a registrable interest.

I, too, welcome the minister's call for a national consultation on cultural strategy, but in this instance at least, I may have been seduced by the sheer poetry of Mike Russell and Brian Monteith's welcome of the document. They are not quite yet the Fran and Anna of Scottish cultural opposition, but they are getting there.

The Parliament has many concerns—the economy, education, health, poverty, social inclusion—but the search for national identity is no doubt the most productive and purposeful way in which we can energise this country's cultures. I say cultures because we must recognise that there are many Scotlands and that by seeking a commonly held cultural vision for Scotland and working in parallel with the existing myriad, disparate, critically worthwhile initiatives, we can do much to bring the Scottish people together.

I hope that the consultation process will identify some practical issues and initiatives, such as the real need to bolster and boost arts provision in schools. I hope that the process will pick up, as Ian said, on the crucial need to celebrate and nurture our home-grown talent.

I believe, and I am with Mike Russell on this, that we must ensure that the notion of cultural diversity is alive in our established arts institutions. I also believe strongly that we must build on the work of the Edinburgh festival to create a coterie of festivals, throughout the country, as positive and vibrant celebrations of life in Scotland. I commend all members to visit Ayr during the next month to visit the Septembayr initiative.

As Mike Russell said, we must develop the anarchic spirit and ensure that our children are connected. They must be encouraged to be creative and we must ensure that their imaginations are untethered by the harsh grind of the real world.

I challenge all the participants in this debate to be equally anarchic in the consultation process and to ensure, with all Labour members, that culture is broad, popular and engaging. We must ensure that the end point of the consultation is not a five-year plan but—if I may be metaphorical for a moment—a year-long national festival.

In conclusion, I have two practical questions. I come from a local authority background and I am proud of the way in which South Ayrshire Council has continued to be able to support the arts, notwithstanding the resource constraints that it faced. How important will the role of local authorities be in the provision of arts and culture? As a corollary to that, how can we ensure that arts and culture form an integral part of social inclusion?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C706656", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Domestic Violence", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26755, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 692.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 692.0, "ID": 26755, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 719.0, "ContributionID": 706656, "EditedText": "The question is, that the motion to extend the meeting by 30 minutes be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "The question is, that the motion to extend the meeting by 30 minutes be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706657", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Domestic Violence", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26755, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 692.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 692.0, "ID": 26755, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 721.0, "ContributionID": 706657, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4046788+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1970E66P288C706618", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Cultural Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26753, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 581.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 581.0, "ID": 26753, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNulty, Des", "ID": 1970, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Clydebank and Milngavie" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Des McNulty", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Des McNulty (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 636.0, "ContributionID": 706618, "EditedText": "I declare an interest here, because for the last three years I have had the privilege of being chair of the Glasgow 1999 festival of architecture and design. At the risk of making an east coast, west coast point, 1999 is the biggest cultural festival that has taken place in Scotland since Glasgow became the European city of culture in 1990. I am delighted, having had that experience of working closely with architects, designers and the community to mount that festival, that for the first time it is envisaged that there will be an architectural strategy for Scotland, as part of a broader cultural strategy. Architecture is crucial to the regeneration process of a city such as Glasgow and its surrounding area. The city's architecture and its regeneration fit together. What can be achieved by bringing them together can affect tourism and housing, can support the economy, and can upgrade and secure the environment. Architecture has a series of clear and concrete payoffs. Above all, architecture stands at the intersection between people and their daily lives, and the key artefacts of living. By looking at architecture and design in a new way we can make substantial changes in the way in which people see themselves and their past, and in which they look to their future. Scotland in general, but Glasgow in particular, has a unique architectural heritage. Its tremendous Victorian buildings are superb, and unrivalled anywhere else in the world. Glasgow also has a vibrant present. The Crown Street regeneration project, and the architectural expo of homes for the future which Glasgow 1999 is putting on, are transforming historically disadvantaged and run-down parts of the city. That is helping us to create a glorious future for Glasgow. The inner city must be made more attractive if people are to be drawn back into it. One of the keystones that I would like to see emerging from this strategy as far as architecture is concerned, and culture more generally, is that it should build on existing achievements. There are many things in Scotland that we do tremendously well. Let us build on these and reinforce them. One thing in the 1999 programme that I am particularly delighted about is the level of community participation, which has been central. It was a key part of the bid and is one of the key reasons why Glasgow won the accolade of city of architecture and design. It has also been a key element of the delivery: £500,000 has been spent on local, community-based projects; four major community festivals are being run in Glasgow; five major projects have upgraded urban spaces in disadvantaged areas. There will also be a conference on dementia and design at the beginning of October, focusing on the particular needs of that disadvantaged group in society. One of the things that has been crucial to the festival is a strong educational programme, which will influence the curriculum of every primary school in Scotland. Those members who drive into Glasgow will have noticed the huge sign on the gasometer. It is, I think, a beautiful sign—it is very well done. It depicts the gallus nature of Glasgow. If we look on the other side of the road in the evening, we see the Cranhill water tower lit up. That is also an emblem for Glasgow, for what can be done to recreate and reincarnate disadvantaged parts of the city. The festival has been a celebration of architecture and design. One tremendously exciting thing about it has been the degree of attention that we have had from people elsewhere in the United Kingdom, Europe and around the world. People have come to Glasgow and seen it in a different way. They have seen its existing architecture and the tremendous exhibitions which we have brought to Glasgow. They have seen the process that we are engaged in of transforming Glasgow and leading it into the 21st century. More than 500,000 visitors have come to the exhibitions; the hotels are full and hoteliers are falling over themselves to build new hotels; the Glasgow collection has helped 58 designers and 35 manufacturers, who have won 15 awards in the process, offering hope for the future of Glasgow's economy. The key achievement of 1999 has been the Lighthouse, where Rhona Brankin will launch the Executive's architectural strategy later this month. I hope the consultation process that follows the \"Celebrating Scotland\" document will involve more than practitioners: it must involve them, but must also involve the users of architecture and design, as the users of other forms of culture are involved. Above all, we need to involve people in their own communities taking control of their own lives. Culture, architecture and design must be a component of that. Let us get away from the idea of culture and architecture being done by somebody else—by professionals in a glass or concrete box. Let people be involved and dictate what they want, and we will carry forward the cultural strategy for Scotland successfully, and build on what we have already done.", "EditedTextHTML": "I declare an interest here, because for the last three years I have had the privilege of being chair of the Glasgow 1999 festival of architecture and design. At the risk of making an east coast, west coast point, 1999 is the biggest cultural

festival that has taken place in Scotland since Glasgow became the European city of culture in 1990. I am delighted, having had that experience of working closely with architects, designers and the community to mount that festival, that for the first time it is envisaged that there will be an architectural strategy for Scotland, as part of a broader cultural strategy.

Architecture is crucial to the regeneration process of a city such as Glasgow and its surrounding area. The city's architecture and its regeneration fit together. What can be achieved by bringing them together can affect tourism and housing, can support the economy, and can upgrade and secure the environment. Architecture has a series of clear and concrete payoffs. Above all, architecture stands at the intersection between people and their daily lives, and the key artefacts of living. By looking at architecture and design in a new way we can make substantial changes in the way in which people see themselves and their past, and in which they look to their future.

Scotland in general, but Glasgow in particular, has a unique architectural heritage. Its tremendous Victorian buildings are superb, and unrivalled anywhere else in the world. Glasgow also has a vibrant present. The Crown Street regeneration project, and the architectural expo of homes for the future which Glasgow 1999 is putting on, are transforming historically disadvantaged and run-down parts of the city. That is helping us to create a glorious future for Glasgow. The inner city must be made more attractive if people are to be drawn back into it. One of the keystones that I would like to see emerging from this strategy as far as architecture is concerned, and culture more generally, is that it should build on existing achievements. There are many things in Scotland that we do tremendously well. Let us build on these and reinforce them.

One thing in the 1999 programme that I am particularly delighted about is the level of community participation, which has been central. It was a key part of the bid and is one of the key reasons why Glasgow won the accolade of city of architecture and design. It has also been a key element of the delivery: £500,000 has been spent on local, community-based projects; four major community festivals are being run in Glasgow; five major projects have upgraded urban spaces in disadvantaged areas. There will also be a conference on dementia and design at the beginning of October, focusing on the particular needs of that disadvantaged group in society. One of the things that has been crucial to the festival is a strong educational programme, which will influence the curriculum of every primary school in Scotland.

Those members who drive into Glasgow will have noticed the huge sign on the gasometer. It is, I think, a beautiful sign—it is very well done. It depicts the gallus nature of Glasgow. If we look on the other side of the road in the evening, we see the Cranhill water tower lit up. That is also an emblem for Glasgow, for what can be done to recreate and reincarnate disadvantaged parts of the city.

The festival has been a celebration of architecture and design. One tremendously exciting thing about it has been the degree of attention that we have had from people elsewhere in the United Kingdom, Europe and around the world. People have come to Glasgow and seen it in a different way. They have seen its existing architecture and the tremendous exhibitions which we have brought to Glasgow. They have seen the process that we are engaged in of transforming Glasgow and leading it into the 21st century. More than 500,000 visitors have come to the exhibitions; the hotels are full and hoteliers are falling over themselves to build new hotels; the Glasgow collection has helped 58 designers and 35 manufacturers, who have won 15 awards in the process, offering hope for the future of Glasgow's economy.

The key achievement of 1999 has been the Lighthouse, where Rhona Brankin will launch the Executive's architectural strategy later this month. I hope the consultation process that follows the \"Celebrating Scotland\" document will involve more than practitioners: it must involve them, but must also involve the users of architecture and design, as the users of other forms of culture are involved.

Above all, we need to involve people in their own communities taking control of their own lives. Culture, architecture and design must be a component of that. Let us get away from the idea of culture and architecture being done by somebody else—by professionals in a glass or concrete box. Let people be involved and dictate what they want, and we will carry forward the cultural strategy for Scotland successfully, and build on what we have already done.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C706622", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Cultural Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26753, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 581.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 581.0, "ID": 26753, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 647.0, "ContributionID": 706622, "EditedText": "Wind up, please.", "EditedTextHTML": "Wind up, please.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1862E99P179C706627", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Cultural Strategy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26753, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 581.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 581.0, "ID": 26753, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Brankin, Rhona", "ID": 1862, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Midlothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Culture and Sport", "SpeakerName": "Rhona Brankin", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Culture and Sport (Rhona Brankin): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 661.0, "ContributionID": 706627, "EditedText": "I will deal with points that were raised in today's debate, starting with those of Mr Russell. I thank Cathy Peattie for voicing some of my concerns about Mr Russell's speech. He does not seem to have grasped that the Government's document is small because we hope to involve people in a consultation process about what the national cultural strategy should be. The document does not comprise the national cultural strategy; it is the first stage in developing it. It is kind of the SNP to say that it will wait and see but I had hoped that it would contribute to the process. We will be inclusive. I thought that Mr Galbraith explained that well. We have said that the document is meant for all the people of Scotland. I would welcome it if those who have expressed concern about inclusiveness would suggest ways in which we can best consult. We want to consult community arts groups and people in remote areas. In reply to those who have sought assurances that rural Scotland will be involved, I give categorical assurances—as one who lived in rural Scotland for 25 years—that that will happen. We have been asked to go to Thurso, we will go to the national Mòd in Fort William to consult our Gaelic-speaking colleagues and we will go to all parts of Scotland. That is central to the consultation process. Although Mr Russell claimed not to think much of the document, it was interesting that half his speech was made up of quotes from it. One of the reasons why the line by A L Kennedy, which he quoted, appeared in the document was that we thought that it was marvellous. Of course artists have to be involved in the process. If Mr Russell knows artists who feel excluded from the process, we would like him to get in touch with us. Mr Russell spoke about sport. We already have a national strategy for sport, which is detailed in the document \"Sport 21: Nothing Left to Chance\". Sport plays a vital role in our culture and we need to examine how culture and sport can link together—I know that our shinty-playing colleagues will contribute to the consultation process. However, there was no point in initiating another massive consultation on sport when that document had already been produced. I will deal with Mr Monteith next. He appears not to think that Government should be concerned with culture but that is because he misunderstands the role of Government in culture. We agree that decisions on funding should be at arm's length but we disagree with the free-market approach to culture of Mr Monteith and Mr Fry. As Sam said, we have a healthy creative industries sector worth £5.3 billion, which creates 91,000 jobs in Scotland. That is important, and Government has a key role in supporting culture and our creative industries. I agree with James Douglas-Hamilton about the importance of the film industry in Scotland. We are putting an extra £1.8 million into Scottish Screen over the next three years. Recent tax breaks mean that the production costs of British films of up to £50 million can be written off in the first year. Film is a vital sector and we are committed to promoting and supporting it. The Scottish National party tells us that thedocument is too prescriptive, whereas I am told by Ian Jenkins that it is too open. The document is intended to stimulate debate and to encourage people to become engaged in that debate. I agree that it has to be geographically inclusive and that it has to look at how we can foster talent in our children. Richard Lochhead asked whether arts and culture will be properly resourced. We are putting in an additional £31 million over the period of the comprehensive spending review. He mentioned that the focus group was not representative. Realistically, if the focus group was representative of everybody in the arts and culture sector in Scotland, it would have a cast of thousands. Donnie Munro is a performing actor.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will deal with points that were raised in today's debate, starting with those of Mr Russell. I thank Cathy Peattie for voicing some of my concerns about Mr Russell's speech. He does not seem to have grasped that the Government's document is small because we hope to involve people in a consultation process about what the national cultural strategy should be. The document does not comprise the national cultural strategy; it is the first stage in developing it. It is kind of the

SNP to say that it will wait and see but I had hoped that it would contribute to the process.

We will be inclusive. I thought that Mr Galbraith explained that well. We have said that the document is meant for all the people of Scotland. I would welcome it if those who have expressed concern about inclusiveness would suggest ways in which we can best consult. We want to consult community arts groups and people in remote areas. In reply to those who have sought assurances that rural Scotland will be involved, I give categorical assurances—as one who lived in rural Scotland for 25 years—that that will happen. We have been asked to go to Thurso, we will go to the national Mòd in Fort William to consult our Gaelic-speaking colleagues and we will go to all parts of Scotland. That is central to the consultation process.

Although Mr Russell claimed not to think much of the document, it was interesting that half his speech was made up of quotes from it. One of the reasons why the line by A L Kennedy, which he quoted, appeared in the document was that we thought that it was marvellous. Of course artists have to be involved in the process. If Mr Russell knows artists who feel excluded from the process, we would like him to get in touch with us.

Mr Russell spoke about sport. We already have a national strategy for sport, which is detailed in the document \"Sport 21: Nothing Left to Chance\". Sport plays a vital role in our culture and we need to examine how culture and sport can link together—I know that our shinty-playing colleagues will contribute to the consultation process. However, there was no point in initiating another massive consultation on sport when that document had already been produced.

I will deal with Mr Monteith next. He appears not to think that Government should be concerned with culture but that is because he misunderstands the role of Government in culture. We agree that decisions on funding should be at arm's length but we disagree with the free-market approach to culture of Mr Monteith and Mr Fry.

As Sam said, we have a healthy creative industries sector worth £5.3 billion, which creates 91,000 jobs in Scotland. That is important, and Government has a key role in supporting culture and our creative industries.

I agree with James Douglas-Hamilton about the importance of the film industry in Scotland. We are putting an extra £1.8 million into Scottish Screen over the next three years. Recent tax breaks mean that the production costs of British films of up to £50 million can be written off in the first year. Film is a vital sector and we are committed to promoting and supporting it.

The Scottish National party tells us that the

document is too prescriptive, whereas I am told by Ian Jenkins that it is too open. The document is intended to stimulate debate and to encourage people to become engaged in that debate. I agree that it has to be geographically inclusive and that it has to look at how we can foster talent in our children.

Richard Lochhead asked whether arts and culture will be properly resourced. We are putting in an additional £31 million over the period of the comprehensive spending review. He mentioned that the focus group was not representative. Realistically, if the focus group was representative of everybody in the arts and culture sector in Scotland, it would have a cast of thousands. Donnie Munro is a performing actor.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706636", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26754, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 679.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 679.0, "ID": 26754, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 681.0, "ContributionID": 706636, "EditedText": "The question is, that motion S1M-107, in the name of Mr Sam Galbraith, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "The question is, that motion S1M-107, in the name of Mr Sam Galbraith, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706637", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26754, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 679.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 679.0, "ID": 26754, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 683.0, "ContributionID": 706637, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706639", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26754, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 679.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 679.0, "ID": 26754, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 687.0, "ContributionID": 706639, "EditedText": "FOR Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)MacLean, Kate ((Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)(LD)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)ABSTENTIONS Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) SNP Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate ((Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)
(LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)

ABSTENTIONS

Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)

Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) SNP Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)

Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)

Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)

Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)

Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)

Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)

Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)

Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)

Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)

Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)

Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)

Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)

Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)

Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)

McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)

McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)

Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)

Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)

Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)

Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)

Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)

Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)

Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)

Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)

Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)

Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)

Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)

Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)

White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)

Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706641", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26754, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 679.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 679.0, "ID": 26754, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 690.0, "ContributionID": 706641, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706642", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26754, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 679.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 679.0, "ID": 26754, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 691.0, "ContributionID": 706642, "EditedText": "That the Parliament agrees that culture, in all its diversity, has a central role in shaping a sense of community and civic pride in the new Scotland, and a contribution to make to its prosperity, health and cohesion; welcomes the Executive's proposals to develop a national cultural strategy for all of Scotland's people, and endorses the far- reaching consultation process on which Scottish Ministers have embarked.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament agrees that culture, in all its diversity, has a central role in shaping a sense of community and civic pride in the new Scotland, and a contribution to make to its prosperity, health and cohesion; welcomes the Executive's proposals to develop a national cultural strategy for all of Scotland's people, and endorses the far- reaching consultation process on which Scottish Ministers have embarked.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706643", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Domestic Violence", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26755, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 692.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 692.0, "ID": 26755, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 693.0, "ContributionID": 706643, "EditedText": "We now move to the debate on members' business, on motion S1M-94, in the name of Maureen Macmillan. This debate will be concluded in 30 minutes.", "EditedTextHTML": "We now move to the debate on members' business, on motion S1M-94, in the name of Maureen Macmillan. This debate will be concluded in 30 minutes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C706658", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Domestic Violence", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26755, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 692.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 692.0, "ID": 26755, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 722.0, "ContributionID": 706658, "EditedText": "In that case, we can continue with members' speeches.", "EditedTextHTML": "In that case, we can continue with members' speeches.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1837E108P186C706665", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Domestic Violence", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26755, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 692.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 692.0, "ID": 26755, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mulligan, Mary", "ID": 1837, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Linlithgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Mulligan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Mary Mulligan (Linlithgow) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 742.0, "ContributionID": 706665, "EditedText": "I, too, welcome the opportunity to discuss domestic violence. It is important that Maureen has brought the issue to this arena. As many members have said, if we are to assist women in situations of domestic violence, we must make resources available. It is important that we do not raise expectations and then fail to fulfil them. I want to pick up on two points Maureen raised: the zero tolerance campaign and education. The zero tolerance campaign has been clear that prevention should be part of the campaign. At the beginning of this year, it launched a project called Respect, the idea of which was to show young people that they should have respect for one another—both young males and young females— and that they should treat one another as civilised human beings rather than get involved in violent acts, be they physical, mental or sexual. The project used posters, postcards and a great deal of literature, which was given to young people in places where they usually go, such as youth clubs, discos and clubs in towns and cities. However, there is still concern that the message is not getting across and that prevention will not become part of the package. The zero tolerance campaign has gone on to develop an education pack that includes all the usual booklets, CD- ROMs and everything else that we have in education packs these days. The pack is to be taken into schools. It might be more effective in rural areas than some of the methods that have been tried in the past. It is also designed to instil in all of us a respect for one another, a respect that would ensure that no one, male or female, is abused in the same way as some of the people we have heard about today. I hope that members will join me in welcoming that progress and that, in the future, the zero tolerance campaign will be able to distribute the pack to all schools in Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "I, too, welcome the opportunity to discuss domestic violence. It is important that Maureen has brought the issue to this arena. As many members have said, if we are to assist women in situations of domestic violence, we must make resources available. It is important that we do not raise expectations and then fail to fulfil them.

I want to pick up on two points Maureen raised: the zero tolerance campaign and education. The zero tolerance campaign has been clear that prevention should be part of the campaign. At the beginning of this year, it launched a project called Respect, the idea of which was to show young people that they should have respect for one another—both young males and young females— and that they should treat one another as civilised human beings rather than get involved in violent acts, be they physical, mental or sexual.

The project used posters, postcards and a great deal of literature, which was given to young people in places where they usually go, such as youth clubs, discos and clubs in towns and cities. However, there is still concern that the message is not getting across and that prevention will not become part of the package. The zero tolerance campaign has gone on to develop an education pack that includes all the usual booklets, CD- ROMs and everything else that we have in education packs these days. The pack is to be taken into schools. It might be more effective in rural areas than some of the methods that have been tried in the past. It is also designed to instil in all of us a respect for one another, a respect that would ensure that no one, male or female, is abused in the same way as some of the people we have heard about today. I hope that members will join me in welcoming that progress and that, in the future, the zero tolerance campaign will be able to distribute the pack to all schools in Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706674", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Domestic Violence", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26755, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 692.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 692.0, "ID": 26755, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 766.0, "ContributionID": 706674, "EditedText": "Meeting closed at 17:59.", "EditedTextHTML": "Meeting closed at 17:59.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.4202994+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C706493", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26729, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26730, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 320.0, "QuestionHeading": "Rail Services (Edinburgh–Shotts–Glasgow)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26734, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 352.0, "DisplayOrder": 352.0, "ID": 26734, "ParentID": 26730 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment (Sarah Boyack): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 355.0, "ContributionID": 706493, "EditedText": "We are not aware of any firm proposals for improvement of the frequency and quality of services on this railway line and the development of railway services is primarily a matter for the rail industry. However, should they so choose, local authorities on the route of the line could apply to the Government's public transport fund if they believed that proposals for improving rail services on the line were eligible for support.", "EditedTextHTML": "We are not aware of any firm proposals for improvement of the frequency and quality of services on this railway line and the development of railway services is primarily a matter for the rail industry. However, should they so choose, local authorities on the route of the line could apply to the Government's public transport fund if they believed that proposals for improving rail services on the line were eligible for support.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:08.9050713+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C706516", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26729, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26730, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 320.0, "QuestionHeading": "Bus Services (Lanarkshire)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26739, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 401.0, "DisplayOrder": 401.0, "ID": 26739, "ParentID": 26730 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 406.0, "ContributionID": 706516, "EditedText": "In a deregulated market, it is for the bus companies to set fares. Through quality partnerships, we will encourage bus companies to introduce simpler and fairer ticketing schemes and to try to reduce costs. The hope is that generating greater bus use will bring the price of bus services down and the system will be made more straightforward and provide a wider range of good tickets.", "EditedTextHTML": "In a deregulated market, it is for the bus companies to set fares. Through quality partnerships, we will encourage bus companies to introduce simpler and fairer ticketing schemes and to try to reduce costs. The hope is that generating greater bus use will bring the price of bus services down and the system will be made more straightforward and provide a wider range of good tickets.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:08.9050713+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1756E184P464C706453", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26728, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26728, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Grahame, Christine", "ID": 1756, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Christine Grahame", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 269.0, "ContributionID": 706453, "EditedText": "I want to pick up on Robert Brown's point about what he regards as the antagonistic approach taken by the Opposition in the first part of this debate. It is the duty of the Opposition to scrutinise the Executive on its behaviour, past and present, and that is what we are doing. It is also the duty of the Opposition to be constructive when legislation is put before this chamber, particularly in this instance. I am not convinced that this legislation is not driven by incompetence in the handling of the Ruddle case. Section 1 of the bill refers to medical treatment. I hope that, as a result of this legislation, which is subject to amendment, people who are placed in Carstairs are not denied medical treatment. Let us make this clear: Ruddle was treatable, he simply did not get treatment. I hope that the minister will listen to that. I would like an answer from the Lord Advocate on Dr White's role in the case, which has been mentioned. In April 1998, Dr White came back to Carstairs to find that the medical sub-committee had informed Ruddle of its decision that he should be discharged. Dr White was at first opposed to that, because he had been trying— unsuccessfully—to get the man treated for five years, in the face of resistance from the regime at Carstairs. He then changed his mind. It is my understanding that he did so on the legal advice of the office of the Secretary of State for Scotland. I would like to know whether that was the case. Ruddle was able to exploit what is euphemistically called a loophole in the legislation. He would not have been able to do anything if he had been receiving treatment. I would have raised a second point if I had been allowed to intervene earlier. Although I welcome the retention of the conditional discharge—a halfway house—I would like to know whether, during the hearing on the Ruddle case, Mr Ruddle's legal team made any offer of a conditional discharge to settle the matter, and whether that offer was rejected out of hand by the Crown. I welcome the right of appeal both ways—that is essential to create a balance. I also welcome what has been said about the rights of an individual who is placed in an institution such as Carstairs; either people need treatment and should be in an institution, or they should be in prison. In too many cases, the reverse is true: we have people with mental health problems in prison, and people who appear not to have mental health problems— because they obtain discharge—in Carstairs. Generally, the legislation is to be welcomed. I know that the SNP is considering amendments to the bill to protect rights all round. No doubt that will be addressed later.", "EditedTextHTML": "I want to pick up on Robert Brown's point about what he regards as the antagonistic approach taken by the Opposition in the first part of this debate. It is the duty of the Opposition to scrutinise the Executive on its behaviour, past and present, and that is what we are doing. It is also the duty of the Opposition to be constructive when legislation is put before this chamber, particularly in this instance.

I am not convinced that this legislation is not driven by incompetence in the handling of the Ruddle case. Section 1 of the bill refers to medical treatment. I hope that, as a result of this legislation, which is subject to amendment, people who are placed in Carstairs are not denied medical treatment. Let us make this clear: Ruddle was treatable, he simply did not get treatment. I hope that the minister will listen to that.

I would like an answer from the Lord Advocate on Dr White's role in the case, which has been mentioned. In April 1998, Dr White came back to Carstairs to find that the medical sub-committee had informed Ruddle of its decision that he should be discharged. Dr White was at first opposed to that, because he had been trying— unsuccessfully—to get the man treated for five years, in the face of resistance from the regime at Carstairs. He then changed his mind. It is my understanding that he did so on the legal advice of the office of the Secretary of State for Scotland. I would like to know whether that was the case. Ruddle was able to exploit what is euphemistically called a loophole in the legislation. He would not have been able to do anything if he had been receiving treatment.

I would have raised a second point if I had been allowed to intervene earlier. Although I welcome the retention of the conditional discharge—a halfway house—I would like to know whether, during the hearing on the Ruddle case, Mr Ruddle's legal team made any offer of a conditional discharge to settle the matter, and whether that offer was rejected out of hand by the Crown.

I welcome the right of appeal both ways—that is essential to create a balance. I also welcome what has been said about the rights of an individual who is placed in an institution such as Carstairs; either people need treatment and should be in an institution, or they should be in prison. In too many cases, the reverse is true: we have people with mental health problems in prison, and people who appear not to have mental health problems— because they obtain discharge—in Carstairs.

Generally, the legislation is to be welcomed. I know that the SNP is considering amendments to the bill to protect rights all round. No doubt that will be addressed later.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:00:47.4219837+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1783E59P270C706513", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Sep 1999", "ID": 4174 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26729, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26730, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 320.0, "QuestionHeading": "Poverty", "QuestionHeadingID": 26738, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 394.0, "DisplayOrder": 394.0, "ID": 26738, "ParentID": 26730 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Baillie, Jackie", "ID": 1783, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumbarton" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Jackie Baillie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Jackie Baillie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 399.0, "ContributionID": 706513, "EditedText": "As ever, Mr Neil poses an interesting question. The targets are currently being developed and, as Mr Neil will appreciate, there is no single definition of poverty. It is partly to do with low income, but includes wider issues such as lack of access to work, poor health, poor education and so on. We will develop a comprehensive set of targets that are appropriate for Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "As ever, Mr Neil poses an interesting question.

The targets are currently being developed and, as Mr Neil will appreciate, there is no single definition of poverty. It is partly to do with low income, but includes wider issues such as lack of access to work, poor health, poor education and so on. We will develop a comprehensive set of targets that are appropriate for Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:13:41.2269066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1773E197P503C706177", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Continental Tyres", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26722, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 46.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 46.0, "ID": 26722, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hyslop, Fiona", "ID": 1773, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona Hyslop", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona Hyslop (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 80.0, "ContributionID": 706177, "EditedText": "I appreciate the recognition that the chamber gives to the work force. As a Lothians list MSP, I know many members of the work force and they will appreciate that support. I also appreciated the briefing that Henry McLeish gave me before the closure announcement and, at that point, I warned him in a private phone call about the zero response minute. I do not know about the 30 communications that he mentioned. I asked a number of questions to elicit exactly what communications had taken place and what support had been offered by the Executive and by the previous Government. In the answers that will be published in the next few days, there is no mention of 30 communications. Why has the minister not given me information about those communications? Secondly, let us look to the future. I acknowledge that there is a limit to what the Executive can do, that the plant does not have assisted area status, that the bulk of the work force live in West Lothian and that most of the rest of West Lothian is being stripped of assisted area status—", "EditedTextHTML": "I appreciate the recognition that the chamber gives to the work force. As a Lothians list MSP, I know many members of the work force and they will appreciate that support. I also appreciated the briefing that Henry McLeish gave me before the closure announcement and, at that point, I warned him in a private phone call about the zero response minute.

I do not know about the 30 communications that he mentioned. I asked a number of questions to elicit exactly what communications had taken place and what support had been offered by the Executive and by the previous Government. In the answers that will be published in the next few days, there is no mention of 30 communications.

Why has the minister not given me information about those communications?

Secondly, let us look to the future. I acknowledge that there is a limit to what the Executive can do, that the plant does not have assisted area status, that the bulk of the work force live in West Lothian and that most of the rest of West Lothian is being stripped of assisted area status—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:00:21.9656621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C706191", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 110.0, "ContributionID": 706191, "EditedText": "Gladly.", "EditedTextHTML": "Gladly.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3577977+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C706192", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 112.0, "ContributionID": 706192, "EditedText": "Does the minister agree that, in the period that she refers to, the previous Government increased expenditure on health year on year to an extent that Labour has not yet equalled?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the minister agree that, in the period that she refers to, the previous Government increased expenditure on health year on year to an extent that Labour has not yet equalled?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3577977+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C706193", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 114.0, "ContributionID": 706193, "EditedText": "I refuse to take lectures from Mr Gallie or from any other members of his party on what is best for the health of the people of Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "I refuse to take lectures from Mr Gallie or from any other members of his party on what is best for the health of the people of Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3577977+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C706198", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 124.0, "ContributionID": 706198, "EditedText": "Answer the question.", "EditedTextHTML": "Answer the question.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3577977+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C706200", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 128.0, "ContributionID": 706200, "EditedText": "She has failed to answer the question.", "EditedTextHTML": "She has failed to answer the question.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3577977+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2029E47P167C706212", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Henry, Hugh", "ID": 2029, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Hugh Henry", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Hugh Henry (Paisley South) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 153.0, "ContributionID": 706212, "EditedText": "Will Mary Scanlon give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mary Scanlon give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3577977+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C706213", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 155.0, "ContributionID": 706213, "EditedText": "I would rather continue. I have only eight minutes. Hugh Henry will have his chance.", "EditedTextHTML": "I would rather continue. I have only eight minutes. Hugh Henry will have his chance.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3577977+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2029E47P167C706214", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Henry, Hugh", "ID": 2029, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Hugh Henry", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Hugh Henry: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 157.0, "ContributionID": 706214, "EditedText": "I would like to correct some of the inaccuracies in Mary Scanlon's statement.", "EditedTextHTML": "I would like to correct some of the inaccuracies in Mary Scanlon's statement.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3577977+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C706215", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 159.0, "ContributionID": 706215, "EditedText": "If Hugh Henry can speak for Donald Dewar, I am happy to give way.", "EditedTextHTML": "If Hugh Henry can speak for Donald Dewar, I am happy to give way.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3577977+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2029E47P167C706216", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Henry, Hugh", "ID": 2029, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Hugh Henry", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Hugh Henry: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 161.0, "ContributionID": 706216, "EditedText": "I would like to see the evidence for Mary Scanlon's statement that I am calling for a ban on public smoking. I have made no such call, and I am unaware that there has been one. The proposals that I will introduce will not be on that basis. Can Mary Scanlon provide clarification?", "EditedTextHTML": "I would like to see the evidence for Mary Scanlon's statement that I am calling for a ban on public smoking. I have made no such call, and I am unaware that there has been one. The proposals that I will introduce will not be on that basis. Can Mary Scanlon provide clarification?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3577977+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C706217", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 163.0, "ContributionID": 706217, "EditedText": "I think that Hugh Henry needs a better spin doctor. Having spent the summer in the Highlands, I read the newspapers like everyone else, which assumed that he was calling for a ban. He needs to employ another spin doctor. We must consult and work together but, having consulted, we should implement practical measures to address the health of the people of Scotland and not continue building on ever- increasing and expensive bureaucracy and focus groups, only to leave the patients' most-used link with the health service out in the cold. The health promotion arm of public health hashuge status and a huge cost, but it is not generally recognised as cost-effective. For as long as I can remember, we have identified the problems in Scotland's health. For as long as I can remember, we have ploughed more money into health—even more than our English neighbours—yet we are not making significant inroads into the problems. I will give the minister three examples of where we could move from bureaucracy and administration to front-line delivery, which I acknowledge that the minister mentioned. I will give three simple examples of what can be done. Part of the health promotion budget should be given to GPs to help them engage more fully in health promotion. Cardiovascular health could be monitored by GPs, as they know all their patients and could take blood pressure and work to treat this chronic disease early. GPs could also assist in a campaign to reduce smoking—that could be tackled along with hypertension. As I visited various GPs and hospitals during the summer, the most serious concern that people raised with me was chlamydia. Chlamydia is given a passing mention in the document, yet 10 per cent of young, sexually active people are affected by it. It is a symptomless problem that causes infertility. It affects both males and females, yet there is no pilot project in Scotland to address the problem and most health boards have not budgeted for the machine that is used for early detection. By strengthening the relationship with GPs, we could also address the problem of young men not attending doctors' surgeries. The suicide rate among young men is alarming and I have no doubt that we are all concerned about it. Only 10 per cent of screening for chlamydia is done on males. That could easily be addressed by bringing the GPs to the front line of health delivery. The treatment is a simple course of antibiotics, which can prevent infertility. I use those three practical examples of how we could improve health care as a distinct option to the grand, centralised, bureaucratic and expensive approach outlined in the document. Where does the document focus on applying direct, immediate help for young single mothers who are smoking? Cigarettes are a cause of deprivation, as they affect the household budget, and smoking-related illnesses cost the NHS £1.8 billion a year. Where is the direct help to bring young males into GP surgeries and tackle the alarming suicide rate? I ask Susan Deacon not to get buried in paperwork and focus groups, but to work with the Health and Community Care Committee and health providers to promote good public health in Scotland. I move, as an amendment to motion S1M-105, in the name of Susan Deacon, to leave out from \"the key\" to end and insert \"that a partnership between individuals and health providers based on shared responsibilities is a better route to improving health in Scotland than the Executive's plans, based on ‘improved life circumstances' and action in relation to ‘health topics', which are failing the people of Scotland.\"", "EditedTextHTML": "I think that Hugh Henry needs a better spin doctor. Having spent the summer in the Highlands, I read the newspapers like everyone else, which assumed that he was calling for a ban. He needs to employ another spin doctor.

We must consult and work together but, having consulted, we should implement practical measures to address the health of the people of Scotland and not continue building on ever- increasing and expensive bureaucracy and focus groups, only to leave the patients' most-used link with the health service out in the cold.

The health promotion arm of public health has

huge status and a huge cost, but it is not generally recognised as cost-effective. For as long as I can remember, we have identified the problems in Scotland's health. For as long as I can remember, we have ploughed more money into health—even more than our English neighbours—yet we are not making significant inroads into the problems.

I will give the minister three examples of where we could move from bureaucracy and administration to front-line delivery, which I acknowledge that the minister mentioned. I will give three simple examples of what can be done. Part of the health promotion budget should be given to GPs to help them engage more fully in health promotion. Cardiovascular health could be monitored by GPs, as they know all their patients and could take blood pressure and work to treat this chronic disease early. GPs could also assist in a campaign to reduce smoking—that could be tackled along with hypertension.

As I visited various GPs and hospitals during the summer, the most serious concern that people raised with me was chlamydia. Chlamydia is given a passing mention in the document, yet 10 per cent of young, sexually active people are affected by it. It is a symptomless problem that causes infertility. It affects both males and females, yet there is no pilot project in Scotland to address the problem and most health boards have not budgeted for the machine that is used for early detection.

By strengthening the relationship with GPs, we could also address the problem of young men not attending doctors' surgeries. The suicide rate among young men is alarming and I have no doubt that we are all concerned about it. Only 10 per cent of screening for chlamydia is done on males. That could easily be addressed by bringing the GPs to the front line of health delivery. The treatment is a simple course of antibiotics, which can prevent infertility.

I use those three practical examples of how we could improve health care as a distinct option to the grand, centralised, bureaucratic and expensive approach outlined in the document. Where does the document focus on applying direct, immediate help for young single mothers who are smoking? Cigarettes are a cause of deprivation, as they affect the household budget, and smoking-related illnesses cost the NHS £1.8 billion a year. Where is the direct help to bring young males into GP surgeries and tackle the alarming suicide rate? I ask Susan Deacon not to get buried in paperwork and focus groups, but to work with the Health and Community Care Committee and health providers to promote good public health in Scotland.

I move, as an amendment to motion S1M-105, in the name of Susan Deacon, to leave out from \"the key\" to end and insert

\"that a partnership between individuals and health providers based on shared responsibilities is a better route to improving health in Scotland than the Executive's plans, based on ‘improved life circumstances' and action in relation to ‘health topics', which are failing the people of Scotland.\"

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3577977+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1811E172P455C706218", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ullrich, Kay", "ID": 1811, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kay Ullrich", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Kay Ullrich (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 166.0, "ContributionID": 706218, "EditedText": "I plan to spend my time addressing the issues raised by the minister, but I must express my utter dismay at the tone of the amendment offered by the Tories. I was particularly dismayed by Mary Scanlon's slur on Scottish social work departments and social workers who continue to do a splendid job in community care, despite years of funding cuts. I want that put on the record. What can we expect from a party that decimated the health service during its 18 years of misrule; a party that gave us the internal market and GP fundholding?", "EditedTextHTML": "I plan to spend my time addressing the issues raised by the minister, but I must express my utter dismay at the tone of the amendment offered by the Tories. I was particularly dismayed by Mary Scanlon's slur on Scottish social work departments and social workers who continue to do a splendid job in community care, despite years of funding cuts. I want that put on the record.

What can we expect from a party that decimated the health service during its 18 years of misrule; a party that gave us the internal market and GP fundholding?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3577977+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1811E172P455C706220", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ullrich, Kay", "ID": 1811, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kay Ullrich", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Kay Ullrich: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 170.0, "ContributionID": 706220, "EditedText": "No. What can we expect from a party that fought the Scottish election campaign on yet another major structural change in the health service in Scotland, which it was proposing to put into place a mere two months after the changes implemented on 1 April this year? The SNP—we have stated it—has reservations about the new structure, but we feel that it is more important for the morale of the workers in the health service, and especially for patients, to allow the new structure time to settle in. We will monitor it to ensure that it delivers a first-rate health service in Scotland. We have just heard from a party that, had it won the Scottish election—I know that pigs might fly but, for the sake of argument, members should bear with me—would have scrapped primary care trusts and local health care co-operatives. Astonishingly, in the context of this debate, it would have abolished the health boards, which play a key role in public health service delivery. In spite of the Black report in 1980, throughout the long, long years of Tory rule, poverty was the condition that dared not speak its name.", "EditedTextHTML": "No. What can we expect from a party that fought the Scottish election campaign on yet another major structural change in the health service in Scotland, which it was proposing to put into place a mere two months after the changes implemented on 1 April this year? The SNP—we have stated it—has reservations about the new structure, but we feel that it is more important for the morale of the workers in the health service, and especially for patients, to allow the new structure time to settle in. We will monitor it to ensure that it delivers a first-rate health service in Scotland.

We have just heard from a party that, had it won the Scottish election—I know that pigs might fly but, for the sake of argument, members should bear with me—would have scrapped primary care trusts and local health care co-operatives. Astonishingly, in the context of this debate, it would have abolished the health boards, which play a key role in public health service delivery. In spite of the Black report in 1980, throughout the long, long years of Tory rule, poverty was the condition that dared not speak its name.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3577977+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1811E172P455C706222", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ullrich, Kay", "ID": 1811, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kay Ullrich", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Kay Ullrich: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 174.0, "ContributionID": 706222, "EditedText": "Does Mr McLetchie want to cancel all his party's policies now?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does Mr McLetchie want to cancel all his party's policies now?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3577977+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1811E172P455C706226", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ullrich, Kay", "ID": 1811, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kay Ullrich", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Kay Ullrich: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 182.0, "ContributionID": 706226, "EditedText": "Yes; that is why I am sure fluoridation of water will be a high priority for the Health and Community Care Committee. The issue must be debated and we would be happy to do so. The biggest barrier to good health is low income. With more than £380 million of benefit lying unclaimed every year, it is essential that we invest in a nationwide benefit take-up initiative. Members should think of the difference that would make to the 40 per cent of Scottish pensioners who are not claiming the benefits to which they are entitled. I welcome the measures that the minister announced today—as far as they go. I am sure that everyone in this chamber wants to reverse Scotland's abysmal health record and the appalling obscenity of poverty. In spite of the Tory amendment, I urge everyone to put behind us the yah-boo politics so beloved of Westminster. The health of the people of Scotland demands that we work together to examine the legislation in terms of public health and poverty and set ourselves the task—before this session ends—of removing from Scotland the title of the sickest nation in Europe. A nation is judged by how it cares for its most vulnerable citizens. Let the members of this Parliament be determined that we will not be found wanting when that judgment is made.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes; that is why I am sure fluoridation of water will be a high priority for the Health and Community Care Committee. The issue must be debated and we would be happy to do so.

The biggest barrier to good health is low income. With more than £380 million of benefit lying unclaimed every year, it is essential that we invest in a nationwide benefit take-up initiative. Members should think of the difference that would make to the 40 per cent of Scottish pensioners who are not claiming the benefits to which they are entitled.

I welcome the measures that the minister announced today—as far as they go. I am sure that everyone in this chamber wants to reverse Scotland's abysmal health record and the appalling obscenity of poverty. In spite of the Tory amendment, I urge everyone to put behind us the yah-boo politics so beloved of Westminster. The health of the people of Scotland demands that we work together to examine the legislation in terms of public health and poverty and set ourselves the task—before this session ends—of removing from Scotland the title of the sickest nation in Europe.

A nation is judged by how it cares for its most vulnerable citizens. Let the members of this Parliament be determined that we will not be found wanting when that judgment is made.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3577977+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1826E199P351C706228", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Smith, Margaret", "ID": 1826, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Smith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Margaret Smith (Edinburgh West) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 187.0, "ContributionID": 706228, "EditedText": "I am glad that we have come to the issue of public health so soon after our long holidays. I am sure that we have all come back more stressed out than we were when the recess began. Public health is the No 1 issue that the Health and Community Care Committee must address and the Parliament must tackle. It is the major issue facing Scotland and we should have it at the top of our political agenda, no matter which party we represent. From time to time, as the Convener of the Health and Community Care Committee, I have in a way to try to be representative of no political party. By so doing, I hope that I can pull together the talents of the exceptional people on that committee to take forward the public health agenda as a matter of urgency. All of us should be able to wheel in behind the broad themes of the white paper and embrace the three-pronged approach to addressing inequalities in health against the background of the inequalities of life. We must improve the life circumstances of all our fellow citizens. It is obvious that that will have a spin-off impact on public health and individual health.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am glad that we have come to the issue of public health so soon after our long holidays. I am sure that we have all come back more stressed out than we were when the recess began.

Public health is the No 1 issue that the Health and Community Care Committee must address and the Parliament must tackle. It is the major issue facing Scotland and we should have it at the top of our political agenda, no matter which party we represent. From time to time, as the Convener of the Health and Community Care Committee, I have in a way to try to be representative of no political party. By so doing, I hope that I can pull together the talents of the exceptional people on that committee to take forward the public health agenda as a matter of urgency.

All of us should be able to wheel in behind the broad themes of the white paper and embrace the three-pronged approach to addressing inequalities in health against the background of the inequalities of life. We must improve the life circumstances of all our fellow citizens. It is obvious that that will have a spin-off impact on public health and individual health.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3577977+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1826E199P351C706230", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Smith, Margaret", "ID": 1826, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Smith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Smith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 191.0, "ContributionID": 706230, "EditedText": "I agree. We have all received representations about the level of suicide, particularly among young men. It is an issue of some concern that has already been raised by Mrs Scanlon. I hope that whoever is sweeping up for the Executive will address that point. We will listen with keen interest. We can all agree on the broad themes of the white paper and the three-pronged approach to address health inequalities and life circumstances. There is an obvious need to tackle lifestyles; that is where I agree wholeheartedly with Mary Scanlon. In all of this, there is a role for government, health professionals, general practitioners, nurses, community nurses, pharmacists and a range of other people. Indeed, as we will see in the debate, there is a role for other professionals, in social work and in education. At the heart of this, however, there is a role for the individual. Nobody makes people do the things that cause them ill health. Sometimes they have no way out of it, but sometimes they do. The cancer screening issue that Mary brought up highlighted that fact. Every one of us has to take responsibility—as women or as individuals—for our own health and that of our children. The prevention of heart disease, cancer and accidents is an agenda that we should all be able to take forward from this point and claim ownership of as the agenda for the Parliament. Everyone agrees that unemployment and poverty have a devastating impact on health. Everyone knows that to change lifestyles, we must target our children and young people in relation to diet, smoking, alcohol, exercise and sexual activity. Everyone knows that as well as warm words from our politicians, the health professionals, people and patients of Scotland need resources and a co-ordinated approach based on solid evidence and practical experience through demonstration projects. That is why the demonstration projects are one of the key elements of the white paper. They are the kind of thing that health boards and others across Scotland will take forward in partnership time and time again. That is why I welcome the motion, the contents of the partnership agreement and the broad principles—if not every dot and comma—of the white paper. Despite the amendment, there remains a high level of consensus on the actions needed on public health. We should make no mistake—this is a crucial issue. As Mrs Ullrich said, it is not just one issue; there are many issues on which we will have to take hard decisions and on which there will be tough, opinionated debating. Before the election, I asked my dentist what measures he would bring in if he were elected to the Scottish Parliament. He replied that there were two. The first was water fluoridation. I think we were right to say that the Health and Community Care Committee ought to consider that as a matter of urgency. His second measure was a ban on chocolate. As I was trying to be elected and to get some of the female vote in Edinburgh West, I declined to take that on as a campaigning issue, but he is right: sugar in sweets and sugary drinks are rotting our children's teeth. That is why we must consider fluoridation of water in the Parliament and in the committee.", "EditedTextHTML": "I agree. We have all received representations about the level of suicide, particularly among young men. It is an issue of some concern that has already been raised by Mrs Scanlon. I hope that whoever is sweeping up for the Executive will address that point. We will listen with keen interest.

We can all agree on the broad themes of the white paper and the three-pronged approach to address health inequalities and life circumstances. There is an obvious need to tackle lifestyles; that is where I agree wholeheartedly with Mary Scanlon. In all of this, there is a role for government, health professionals, general practitioners, nurses, community nurses, pharmacists and a range of other people. Indeed, as we will see in the debate, there is a role for other professionals, in social work and in education.

At the heart of this, however, there is a role for the individual. Nobody makes people do the things that cause them ill health. Sometimes they have no way out of it, but sometimes they do. The cancer screening issue that Mary brought up highlighted that fact. Every one of us has to take responsibility—as women or as individuals—for our own health and that of our children.

The prevention of heart disease, cancer and accidents is an agenda that we should all be able to take forward from this point and claim ownership of as the agenda for the Parliament. Everyone agrees that unemployment and poverty have a devastating impact on health. Everyone knows that to change lifestyles, we must target our children and young people in relation to diet, smoking, alcohol, exercise and sexual activity.

Everyone knows that as well as warm words from our politicians, the health professionals, people and patients of Scotland need resources and a co-ordinated approach based on solid evidence and practical experience through demonstration projects. That is why the demonstration projects are one of the key elements of the white paper. They are the kind of thing that health boards and others across Scotland will take forward in partnership time and time again. That is why I welcome the motion, the contents of the partnership agreement and the broad principles—if not every dot and comma—of the white paper.

Despite the amendment, there remains a high level of consensus on the actions needed on public health. We should make no mistake—this is a crucial issue. As Mrs Ullrich said, it is not just

one issue; there are many issues on which we will have to take hard decisions and on which there will be tough, opinionated debating.

Before the election, I asked my dentist what measures he would bring in if he were elected to the Scottish Parliament. He replied that there were two. The first was water fluoridation. I think we were right to say that the Health and Community Care Committee ought to consider that as a matter of urgency. His second measure was a ban on chocolate. As I was trying to be elected and to get some of the female vote in Edinburgh West, I declined to take that on as a campaigning issue, but he is right: sugar in sweets and sugary drinks are rotting our children's teeth. That is why we must consider fluoridation of water in the Parliament and in the committee.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3577977+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C706234", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 200.0, "ContributionID": 706234, "EditedText": "Will Malcolm Chisholm give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Malcolm Chisholm give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3577977+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1970E66P288C706240", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNulty, Des", "ID": 1970, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Clydebank and Milngavie" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Des McNulty", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Des McNulty: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 215.0, "ContributionID": 706240, "EditedText": "No, I will not. I believe that we have strong—overwhelming—scientific evidence of the causes of ill health and of the steps that we need to take to improve the situation. What is required from the health minister—and equally from those of her ministerial colleagues whose responsibilities bear on health, which is virtually all of them—is a consistency and firmness of purpose in making the improvement of Scotland's health a key priority. All too often in the past, public health and health promotion departments have been a cinderella within the health service, knocked aside or downgraded when the pressures on acute hospital services accumulated. What is needed is a continuing commitment—through local government, housing and employment policies, as well as through the health budget and the health service—to make tackling health inequalities one of the Government's key objectives. The message that I am getting from the minister is that that appeal has been heard. The minister's speech, together with the white paper, makes it clear that the campaign against poor health will be closely tied to broader efforts to deal with social exclusion, concentrating people's efforts across the sectors by working to a shared agenda. On the ground, I detect a strong sense of common purpose among all those working in health and in related fields to tackle those inequalities. That is what they want to do, and that is what we in this Parliament have to empower and encourage them to do. Health has been given a high priority—not only because of its importance in terms of people's social well-being, but because the measurement of progress towards meeting health targets provides us with an objective and robust method of assessing progress towards social inclusion and equality. To meet the targets set out in the white paper, we will need to advance partnership working and the co-ordination of the work of different agencies in a way that builds on existing good practice but breaks new ground. Despite the deep-seated health inequalities in Scotland and the unacceptably high rates of coronary heart disease, cancer and strokes in particular, it is my experience that a lot of hard work is already being done to tackle our health problems. As the former chair of the Glasgow Healthy City Partnership, I know that a great deal has already been done on the ground to tap into the creativity of people living in some of the more deprived communities, as well as the expertise of health practitioners. Concrete efforts have been made to build paths away from health disadvantage. Community health projects and projects that focus on specific needs—and I must say that I could provide an even longer list than Malcolm— have had a major impact. They work in developing greater health awareness and providing much needed support to people for improving their health. The centre for women's health in Glasgow is an example of an internationally recognised centre of excellence. There is a great deal of existing good practice in Scotland—we are not working from the back of the field. People are coming to Scotland from elsewhere in the UK and from Europe to look at what we are doing and to learn lessons that they can apply to their circumstances. There is much that can be put into effect very quickly given the commitment that is now being shown.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I will not. I believe that we have strong—overwhelming—scientific evidence of the causes of ill health and of the steps that we need to take to improve the situation. What is required from the health minister—and equally from those of her ministerial colleagues whose responsibilities bear on health, which is virtually all of them—is a consistency and firmness of purpose in making the improvement of Scotland's health a key priority. All too often in the past, public health and health promotion departments have been a cinderella within the health service, knocked aside or downgraded when the pressures on acute hospital services accumulated. What is needed is a continuing commitment—through local government, housing and employment policies, as well as through the health budget and the health service—to make tackling health inequalities one of the Government's key objectives. The message that I am getting from the minister is that that appeal has been heard.

The minister's speech, together with the white paper, makes it clear that the campaign against poor health will be closely tied to broader efforts to deal with social exclusion, concentrating people's efforts across the sectors by working to a shared agenda. On the ground, I detect a strong sense of common purpose among all those working in health and in related fields to tackle those inequalities. That is what they want to do, and that is what we in this Parliament have to empower and encourage them to do.

Health has been given a high priority—not only because of its importance in terms of people's social well-being, but because the measurement of progress towards meeting health targets provides us with an objective and robust method of assessing progress towards social inclusion and equality. To meet the targets set out in the white paper, we will need to advance partnership working and the co-ordination of the work of different agencies in a way that builds on existing good practice but breaks new ground.

Despite the deep-seated health inequalities in Scotland and the unacceptably high rates of coronary heart disease, cancer and strokes in particular, it is my experience that a lot of hard work is already being done to tackle our health problems. As the former chair of the Glasgow Healthy City Partnership, I know that a great deal has already been done on the ground to tap into the creativity of people living in some of the more deprived communities, as well as the expertise of health practitioners. Concrete efforts have been made to build paths away from health disadvantage.

Community health projects and projects that focus on specific needs—and I must say that I could provide an even longer list than Malcolm— have had a major impact. They work in developing greater health awareness and providing much needed support to people for improving their health. The centre for women's health in Glasgow is an example of an internationally recognised centre of excellence. There is a great deal of existing good practice in Scotland—we are not working from the back of the field. People are coming to Scotland from elsewhere in the UK and from Europe to look at what we are doing and to learn lessons that they can apply to their circumstances. There is much that can be put into effect very quickly given the commitment that is now being shown.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3577977+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C706241", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 217.0, "ContributionID": 706241, "EditedText": "Come to a close, please.", "EditedTextHTML": "Come to a close, please.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3577977+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1876E194P490C706245", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Marwick, Tricia", "ID": 1876, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tricia Marwick", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tricia Marwick: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 227.0, "ContributionID": 706245, "EditedText": "Will Mr Brown join me in condemning the Executive for cutting £176 million from Scottish housing? Does he agree that the Executive—or the Labour party—is spending less on Scottish housing in its first three years than the Tory Government spent in its last three years?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr Brown join me in condemning the Executive for cutting £176 million from Scottish housing? Does he agree that the Executive—or the Labour party—is spending less on Scottish housing in its first three years than the Tory Government spent in its last three years?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3577977+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2188E70P92C706253", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harper, Robin", "ID": 2188, "PartyName": "Scottish Green Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Green", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robin Harper", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robin Harper: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 244.0, "ContributionID": 706253, "EditedText": "No, I want to continue.Secondly, Margaret Smith commented that her dentist had said that two issues were the reduction of the amount of chocolate eaten and the introduction of fluoridation. There is a danger of getting them in the wrong order. Why do we not first address the real causes of dental decay? To address the causes of tooth decay, we need to put in place essential education, changes in culture and in eating habits and anything else that we can think of. In the fluoridation debate, there are plenty of informed and reasonable arguments in favour of introducing fluoridation and equally well-informed and progressive arguments against fluoridation. I will stand against fluoridation and I hope that the argument will be revealing, intense and sensible. Generally speaking, the white paper is good and I wish the Executive the best of luck with it, but there are aspects that could be improved.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I want to continue.

Secondly, Margaret Smith commented that her dentist had said that two issues were the reduction of the amount of chocolate eaten and the introduction of fluoridation. There is a danger of getting them in the wrong order. Why do we not first address the real causes of dental decay? To address the causes of tooth decay, we need to put in place essential education, changes in culture and in eating habits and anything else that we can think of. In the fluoridation debate, there are plenty of informed and reasonable arguments in favour of introducing fluoridation and equally well-informed and progressive arguments against fluoridation. I will stand against fluoridation and I hope that the argument will be revealing, intense and sensible.

Generally speaking, the white paper is good and I wish the Executive the best of luck with it, but there are aspects that could be improved.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3577977+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2185E120P328C706246", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Brown, Robert", "ID": 2185, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robert Brown", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robert Brown: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 229.0, "ContributionID": 706246, "EditedText": "On funding, the initiatives have to be taken as a whole. Interruption. Seriously— let us wait and see what the partnership Government has achieved by the end of the period. As the coalition parties have been in power only since 1 July, it is a little premature to talk about investment figures over that three-year period. Returning to my main point that the emphasis on social factors should not lead us to overlook the need to target specific health promotion issues, I think that it was correct for the partnership agreement to insist on such an approach rather than on the chimera of hospital waiting lists. There will always be political pressures to deal with the high-tech end of hospitals, because that attracts all the publicity, but the priority should be placed on the slow, steady work of the health service. In connection with that point, I was a little concerned to read in the white paper of difficulties at the edge between local government and health. It might not be that important to have health officials sit on local government committees, but it is vital that the link between the two services be as seamless as possible so that the policy is not hidebound by such matters as departmental difficulties. We have to give much attention to drawing the strands together in different ways. My final point relates to cancer. We have failed young women abysmally in the campaign to reduce tobacco usage. Why? It seems slightly perverse because women are far better than men are at going to the doctor. They go to the doctor about childbirth and associated pre and post-natal care and are in contact with community organisations of all sorts such as mother-andtoddler groups, weightwatchers groups and yoga classes. It is possible to target young women more effectively. The link between the health of young women and the unfortunate upward trend in cigarette smoking, and similar links, can hardly be overemphasised. A while back I was involved in litigation in England—members might have read about it—on coal miners and their associated problems. An extraordinary and significant fact that emerged was that a moderate cigarette smoker suffers more damage to his lungs than he does from 20 years down the mines with their dampness and dust. The Conservative amendment fails significantly to recognise the role of the Government. The role of the Government in public health is threefold: to resource public health, to co-ordinate policies and to set ambitious but achievable targets to tackle the problems that we have been talking about. The minister's speech and white paper hit the issue on the head. Let us consider the details unitedly and try to deliver those improvements in health.", "EditedTextHTML": "On funding, the initiatives have to be taken as a whole. [Interruption.] Seriously—

let us wait and see what the partnership Government has achieved by the end of the period. As the coalition parties have been in power only since 1 July, it is a little premature to talk about investment figures over that three-year period.

Returning to my main point that the emphasis on social factors should not lead us to overlook the need to target specific health promotion issues, I think that it was correct for the partnership agreement to insist on such an approach rather than on the chimera of hospital waiting lists. There will always be political pressures to deal with the high-tech end of hospitals, because that attracts all the publicity, but the priority should be placed on the slow, steady work of the health service.

In connection with that point, I was a little concerned to read in the white paper of difficulties at the edge between local government and health. It might not be that important to have health officials sit on local government committees, but it is vital that the link between the two services be as seamless as possible so that the policy is not hidebound by such matters as departmental difficulties. We have to give much attention to drawing the strands together in different ways.

My final point relates to cancer. We have failed young women abysmally in the campaign to reduce tobacco usage. Why? It seems slightly perverse because women are far better than men are at going to the doctor. They go to the doctor about childbirth and associated pre and post-natal care and are in contact with community organisations of all sorts such as mother-andtoddler groups, weightwatchers groups and yoga classes. It is possible to target young women more effectively. The link between the health of young women and the unfortunate upward trend in cigarette smoking, and similar links, can hardly be overemphasised.

A while back I was involved in litigation in England—members might have read about it—on coal miners and their associated problems. An extraordinary and significant fact that emerged was that a moderate cigarette smoker suffers more damage to his lungs than he does from 20 years down the mines with their dampness and dust.

The Conservative amendment fails significantly to recognise the role of the Government. The role of the Government in public health is threefold: to resource public health, to co-ordinate policies and to set ambitious but achievable targets to tackle the problems that we have been talking about. The minister's speech and white paper hit the issue on the head. Let us consider the details unitedly and try to deliver those improvements in health.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3577977+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2188E70P92C706247", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harper, Robin", "ID": 2188, "PartyName": "Scottish Green Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Green", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robin Harper", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robin Harper (Lothians) (Green): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 232.0, "ContributionID": 706247, "EditedText": "I would like to address the remarks made earlier by Phil Gallie and Tricia Marwick, although I see that she has disappeared. The Black report, commissioned in 1977 and produced in 1980, was the first significant report to link poverty with ill health. The subsequent Conservative Administration shelved the report and was partly responsible for the increase in the amount that had to be spent on health over that period because the problems created by the link between poor housing and ill health were not being addressed, which were clearly set out in the Black report. I support Tricia Marwick every time she calls for better insulation standards for Scottish homes and for a rolling programme of insulation improvements, particularly to public housing. If we could raise the basic building standards for housing in Scotland, we would go a long way towards solving many of our problems.", "EditedTextHTML": "I would like to address the remarks made earlier by Phil Gallie and Tricia Marwick, although I see that she has disappeared.

The Black report, commissioned in 1977 and produced in 1980, was the first significant report to link poverty with ill health. The subsequent Conservative Administration shelved the report and was partly responsible for the increase in the amount that had to be spent on health over that period because the problems created by the link between poor housing and ill health were not being addressed, which were clearly set out in the Black report. I support Tricia Marwick every time she calls for better insulation standards for Scottish homes and for a rolling programme of insulation improvements, particularly to public housing. If we could raise the basic building standards for housing in Scotland, we would go a long way towards solving many of our problems.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3577977+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C706256", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Richard Simpson (Ochil) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 252.0, "ContributionID": 706256, "EditedText": "The establishment of a Scottish Parliament with broad and accountable responsibilities for health service provision in Scotland offers us a unique opportunity. The white paper demonstrates that the Government's approach is to consider the multi-factorial nature of Scotland's ill health and the fact that we require multi-agency solutions. Many of us who have practised medicine over the past 20 or 30 years have been engaged in the process of trying to promote health in Scotland, of almost preaching to people about health, and we have not made any substantial changes at all. The Government has begun to promote health in an effective way by publishing a number of papers. Sir David Carter drew attention to these important initiatives in his report, which was published last month. The white paper, \"Tackling Drugs in Scotland: Action in Partnership\", to which Alex Fergusson alluded, is very important in terms of what we are going to do in the drugs field. A further initiative is \"Smoking Kills\", which was published in December 1998. Sir David repeatedly drew attention to inequalities as the first challenge that has to be faced in every aspect of this area of work. The Government has placed inequality and children at the centre of the renewal strategy. At a national level, the long-term aim of eliminating child poverty has been established as a goal. The increase in child benefits, the establishment of the working families tax credit, the £100 allowance to the elderly to deal with dreadful death rates in winter and the warm deal initiative are important issues. In my constituency, the care and repair efforts that are being made through voluntary groups in partnership with local authorities will begin to deal with some of the housing problems that we are faced with. I want to tell members briefly about the initiatives that the Government has taken in the heart of my constituency in Clackmannanshire, which is an area of some deprivation. For example, £2.7 million was made available for a social inclusion partnership and will support some of the efforts in the drugs field to which Mr Fergusson referred. The establishment of community schools, and the widening of that initiative, is very important in terms of health. The promotion of a healthy alliance, and the opportunity to establish a healthy living centre—for which we have submitted a bid— will help as well. Henry McLeish's visit to the constituency yesterday concentrated on the central problem of unemployment. Unless we tackle unemployment, we will not give people the self-esteem that is vital to good health. These initiatives contribute to a comprehensive strategy to renew my constituency and to deal with Scottish health problems. Phil Gallie seemed to be feeling under some attack when he spoke earlier. I say to him, yes, the Conservatives did spend a lot more money on health, but what was that money spent on? The number of administrators was increased from 1,000 to over 12,000 under the Conservative Government, so the money was spent on administration, not on the appropriate issues that we need to address. We have already tried to start rolling that process back. Turning to a point made by Robert Brown, there is one area into which I believe that we need to go further than—from what the white paper says—the Executive is prepared to go and on which we must provide clear leadership for the rest of the United Kingdom. The white paper contains a strategy on tobacco, and that strategy is also spelled out in \"Smoking Kills\". However, I do not believe that that strategy deals adequately with the problem of passive smoking. Sir David Carter's report states that, in North Lanarkshire, 43 per cent of people interviewed within a week of a survey being done mentioned passive smoking. Such figures are unacceptable, and we cannot tolerate passive smoking. Tricia Marwick referred to asthma, which 5 per cent of adults and 10 per cent, or more, of children suffer from. Those figures are increasing, as has been demonstrated in studies in Grampian. Tobacco smoke is one of the most powerful triggers for acute asthma. There are 2,000 deaths from asthma annually. The Royal College of Physicians reported that 50 children a day are admitted to hospitals in the United Kingdom because of asthma triggered by cigarette smoke specifically.", "EditedTextHTML": "The establishment of a Scottish Parliament with broad and accountable responsibilities for health service provision in Scotland offers us a unique opportunity. The white paper demonstrates that the Government's approach is to consider the multi-factorial nature of Scotland's ill health and the fact that we require multi-agency solutions. Many of us who have practised medicine over the past 20 or 30 years have been engaged in the process of trying to promote health in Scotland, of almost preaching to people about health, and we have not made any substantial changes at all.

The Government has begun to promote health in an effective way by publishing a number of papers. Sir David Carter drew attention to these important initiatives in his report, which was published last month. The white paper, \"Tackling Drugs in Scotland: Action in Partnership\", to which Alex Fergusson alluded, is very important in terms of what we are going to do in the drugs field. A further initiative is \"Smoking Kills\", which was published in December 1998.

Sir David repeatedly drew attention to inequalities as the first challenge that has to be faced in every aspect of this area of work. The Government has placed inequality and children at the centre of the renewal strategy. At a national level, the long-term aim of eliminating child poverty has been established as a goal. The increase in

child benefits, the establishment of the working families tax credit, the £100 allowance to the elderly to deal with dreadful death rates in winter and the warm deal initiative are important issues. In my constituency, the care and repair efforts that are being made through voluntary groups in partnership with local authorities will begin to deal with some of the housing problems that we are faced with.

I want to tell members briefly about the initiatives that the Government has taken in the heart of my constituency in Clackmannanshire, which is an area of some deprivation. For example, £2.7 million was made available for a social inclusion partnership and will support some of the efforts in the drugs field to which Mr Fergusson referred. The establishment of community schools, and the widening of that initiative, is very important in terms of health. The promotion of a healthy alliance, and the opportunity to establish a healthy living centre—for which we have submitted a bid— will help as well. Henry McLeish's visit to the constituency yesterday concentrated on the central problem of unemployment. Unless we tackle unemployment, we will not give people the self-esteem that is vital to good health. These initiatives contribute to a comprehensive strategy to renew my constituency and to deal with Scottish health problems.

Phil Gallie seemed to be feeling under some attack when he spoke earlier. I say to him, yes, the Conservatives did spend a lot more money on health, but what was that money spent on? The number of administrators was increased from 1,000 to over 12,000 under the Conservative Government, so the money was spent on administration, not on the appropriate issues that we need to address. We have already tried to start rolling that process back.

Turning to a point made by Robert Brown, there is one area into which I believe that we need to go further than—from what the white paper says—the Executive is prepared to go and on which we must provide clear leadership for the rest of the United Kingdom. The white paper contains a strategy on tobacco, and that strategy is also spelled out in \"Smoking Kills\". However, I do not believe that that strategy deals adequately with the problem of passive smoking. Sir David Carter's report states that, in North Lanarkshire, 43 per cent of people interviewed within a week of a survey being done mentioned passive smoking. Such figures are unacceptable, and we cannot tolerate passive smoking.

Tricia Marwick referred to asthma, which 5 per cent of adults and 10 per cent, or more, of children suffer from. Those figures are increasing, as has been demonstrated in studies in Grampian. Tobacco smoke is one of the most powerful triggers for acute asthma. There are 2,000 deaths from asthma annually. The Royal College of Physicians reported that 50 children a day are admitted to hospitals in the United Kingdom because of asthma triggered by cigarette smoke specifically.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3577977+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C706261", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr David Davidson (North-East Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 263.0, "ContributionID": 706261, "EditedText": "Despite the comments from other parts of the chamber, we welcome today's debate. Whether we like it or not, health is one of the most important issues in Scotland. It is not one that we can easily deflect, or over which we should try to score brownie points from the past. The Executive has produced documents for us to address, and the purpose of today is for us to give those documents due scrutiny. Some members have certainly risen to that. It is unfortunate that the minister got a little excited when she responded to Mr Gallie's intervention, but I am assured that if she talks to Mr Chisholm, he may be able to give her the address of the stress clinic in Pilton to which he referred earlier. Possibly we could all have a go at it when the time arises. I have spent my life in the front line of medicine, in the form of community pharmacy. Most of that has been in areas that would be considered today as socially deprived, with poor housing and, more important, poor health, knowledge and education. When my colleagues and I talk about personal responsibility for our health, that is not an indictment of the individual who perhaps has not got the message. I think that personal responsibility for health can be explained very simply. It is for those of us in this chamber to ensure that every single person in the street understands—in the language that they use every day—exactly what they can do to help themselves and, more important, to help others help themselves. Richard Simpson, a GP, must be very frustrated by the fact that people have called in to his surgery, have been given information and Health Education Board for Scotland leaflets and have gone off without getting the message. That is the underlying point. No amount of bureaucracy or additional task forces will easily address that question. We have a huge wealth of information on health care and on health issues—they are analysed to death in paper after paper. What we need is a proper campaign from the Executive to get across the message of personal health care to every individual. I agree with those who said earlier that that begins in the ante-natal clinic.", "EditedTextHTML": "Despite the comments from other parts of the chamber, we welcome today's debate. Whether we like it or not, health is one of the most important issues in Scotland. It is not one that we can easily deflect, or over which we should try to score brownie points from the past.

The Executive has produced documents for us to address, and the purpose of today is for us to give those documents due scrutiny. Some members have certainly risen to that. It is unfortunate that the minister got a little excited when she responded to Mr Gallie's intervention, but I am assured that if she talks to Mr Chisholm, he may be able to give her the address of the stress clinic in Pilton to which he referred earlier. Possibly we could all have a go at it when the time arises.

I have spent my life in the front line of medicine, in the form of community pharmacy. Most of that has been in areas that would be considered today as socially deprived, with poor housing and, more important, poor health, knowledge and education. When my colleagues and I talk about personal responsibility for our health, that is not an indictment of the individual who perhaps has not got the message. I think that personal responsibility for health can be explained very simply. It is for those of us in this chamber to ensure that every single person in the street understands—in the language that they use every day—exactly what they can do to help themselves and, more important, to help others help themselves.

Richard Simpson, a GP, must be very frustrated by the fact that people have called in to his surgery, have been given information and Health Education Board for Scotland leaflets and have gone off without getting the message. That is the underlying point. No amount of bureaucracy or additional task forces will easily address that question. We have a huge wealth of information on health care and on health issues—they are analysed to death in paper after paper. What we need is a proper campaign from the Executive to get across the message of personal health care to every individual. I agree with those who said earlier that that begins in the ante-natal clinic.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3577977+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1803E78P291C706264", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gillon, Karen", "ID": 1803, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Clydesdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Karen Gillon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Karen Gillon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 269.0, "ContributionID": 706264, "EditedText": "Does Mr Davidson agree that there are unequivocal links between health, poverty, housing and transport? The issues that he has identified in relation to personal choice are often not ones of choice for individuals. Poverty is often the most important factor affecting a person's health. Does his party acknowledge the link between poverty and ill health?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does Mr Davidson agree that there are unequivocal links between health, poverty, housing and transport? The issues that he has identified in relation to personal choice are often not ones of choice for individuals. Poverty is often the most important factor affecting a person's health. Does his party acknowledge the link between poverty and ill health?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3577977+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1985E207P501C706266", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hamilton, Mr Duncan", "ID": 1985, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Duncan Hamilton (Highlands and Islands) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 274.0, "ContributionID": 706266, "EditedText": "We have just heard the speech which described what the Tories wished they had said in their amendment. Mary Scanlon's amendment does not do what Mr Davidson was talking about at all. If we read it properly, it says that the Government's role is so diminished—and of course everyone understands that the individual has a responsibility and that much of the change that will happen will result from individuals changing their attitude and action—and tries to ensure that Government's role in the process is removed. Frankly, that is no good, because the whole point of what we are trying to achieve today is to make a cohesive move forward. Mr Chisholm said that if we cannot read the white paper, we should just look at the cover, with the picture of a jigsaw. It is more apt than Mr Chisholm thinks: there is one piece missing, which I can only assume represents the Conservative party. Today's debate has been constructive and the content has been very good. I hope that the ministerial team will take from my comments the broad context that the Scottish National party is onside with many of the objectives and specific measures of the white paper. We want, however, to see much more done. I want to focus on a couple of key issues. The first is deprivation. We all—even the Conservatives— accept the link between poverty and ill health. We need to examine income distribution much more, and the have-nots in society, not just the overall level of wealth in Scotland. I hope that, in his summing-up speech, Iain Gray will answer the question about the absence of a Government target for dampness in housing, the cuts in the housing budget and the negative impact that that will have. If we want to believe in joined-up Government, it would be interesting to know why that target is not there and what the Government will do about it. That brings me to resources. As we all know, the coalition is being kept together on the grounds that we need to find an extra £80 million from a whole series of budgets. I would like to quote not the white paper, but the green paper, \"Working Together for a Healthier Scotland\". It says: \"The combined problems of low incomes, unemployment, poor housing, a degraded environment, and high levels of crime impose an additional burden of ill-health on many families.\" They place\"extreme stress on communities, families and individuals.\"I think that everyone would agree with that, but if that is the case, why will the Government be reducing the budgets for many of the areas which will impact public health? I understand that the health budget is to be ring-fenced, but what about the other budgets being cut? That will surely have a negative impact. The other matter which we want to examine is that of local authorities, because much work is done in partnership. If local authorities' spending is falling, as it most assuredly is, that will also have a negative impact. Let us look at the whole picture in context. On dental care, the minister correctly identified the position on the problem regarding under-fives. We need urgent action of course, but if we compare the target in the white paper with what went before it in the green paper, we see that the green paper mentions a target set in 1991 to reduce the incidence of dental disease in under- fives by 60 per cent. That target was meant to be reached by 2000. In the white paper, exactly the same target is set to be achieved by 2010. It is hardly ambitious; it is simply a restatement of an earlier target that was not reached. I understand that that is not purely the fault of this Administration, but is something that those in the former Conservative Government should take on board before they get too keen. Another important aspect of dental care is covered by the SNP's alternative, as is the point about free dental check-ups being used to get the family norm moving by getting people to concentrate on preventive care. On smoking, Hugh Henry told us that he was misled by the Daily Record. Perhaps he was not well represented—I dare say he will get a few allies on this side of the chamber. It is important to know where the Executive stands on this matter. I associate myself with the remarks made by Dr Simpson. We need to examine seriously what he said on the need for urgent action and for taking more action than what the white paper proposes. We also need to consider tobacco advertising.I see that the white paper attempts to reduce passive smoking in the workplace, but gives no detail of what will happen. I look forward to the Government taking a much tougher line on that. On the Conservatives'—correct—obsession with the situation surrounding drug abuse and misuse, the white paper calls for a concerted national strategy. That is what I thought Scotland Against Drugs was all about. It is a pity for us in the SNP that we are returning to a situation where the funding for tackling drug misuse is not ring-fenced as it has been before. The Scottish National party welcomes what is in this document, but we want more focused resources and better targeting. We also want the appointment of a public health minister to ensure that public health is not allowed to slide down the agenda, as happened before.", "EditedTextHTML": "We have just heard the speech which described what the Tories wished they had said in their amendment. Mary Scanlon's amendment does not do what Mr Davidson was talking about at all. If we read it properly, it says that the Government's role is so diminished—and of course everyone understands that the individual has a responsibility and that much of the change that will happen will result from individuals changing their attitude and action—and tries to ensure that Government's role in the process is removed. Frankly, that is no good, because the whole point of what we are trying to achieve today is to make a cohesive move forward.

Mr Chisholm said that if we cannot read the white paper, we should just look at the cover, with the picture of a jigsaw. It is more apt than Mr Chisholm thinks: there is one piece missing, which I can only assume represents the Conservative party.

Today's debate has been constructive and the content has been very good. I hope that the ministerial team will take from my comments the broad context that the Scottish National party is onside with many of the objectives and specific measures of the white paper.

We want, however, to see much more done. I want to focus on a couple of key issues. The first is deprivation. We all—even the Conservatives— accept the link between poverty and ill health. We need to examine income distribution much more, and the have-nots in society, not just the overall level of wealth in Scotland. I hope that, in his summing-up speech, Iain Gray will answer the question about the absence of a Government target for dampness in housing, the cuts in the housing budget and the negative impact that that will have. If we want to believe in joined-up Government, it would be interesting to know why

that target is not there and what the Government will do about it.

That brings me to resources. As we all know, the coalition is being kept together on the grounds that we need to find an extra £80 million from a whole series of budgets. I would like to quote not the white paper, but the green paper, \"Working Together for a Healthier Scotland\". It says:

\"The combined problems of low incomes, unemployment, poor housing, a degraded environment, and high levels of crime impose an additional burden of ill-health on many families.\"

They place

\"extreme stress on communities, families and individuals.\"

I think that everyone would agree with that, but if that is the case, why will the Government be reducing the budgets for many of the areas which will impact public health? I understand that the health budget is to be ring-fenced, but what about the other budgets being cut? That will surely have a negative impact.

The other matter which we want to examine is that of local authorities, because much work is done in partnership. If local authorities' spending is falling, as it most assuredly is, that will also have a negative impact. Let us look at the whole picture in context.

On dental care, the minister correctly identified the position on the problem regarding under-fives. We need urgent action of course, but if we compare the target in the white paper with what went before it in the green paper, we see that the green paper mentions a target set in 1991 to reduce the incidence of dental disease in under- fives by 60 per cent. That target was meant to be reached by 2000. In the white paper, exactly the same target is set to be achieved by 2010. It is hardly ambitious; it is simply a restatement of an earlier target that was not reached. I understand that that is not purely the fault of this Administration, but is something that those in the former Conservative Government should take on board before they get too keen.

Another important aspect of dental care is covered by the SNP's alternative, as is the point about free dental check-ups being used to get the family norm moving by getting people to concentrate on preventive care.

On smoking, Hugh Henry told us that he was misled by the Daily Record. Perhaps he was not well represented—I dare say he will get a few allies on this side of the chamber. It is important to know where the Executive stands on this matter.

I associate myself with the remarks made by Dr Simpson. We need to examine seriously what he said on the need for urgent action and for taking more action than what the white paper proposes.

We also need to consider tobacco advertising.

I see that the white paper attempts to reduce passive smoking in the workplace, but gives no detail of what will happen. I look forward to the Government taking a much tougher line on that.

On the Conservatives'—correct—obsession with the situation surrounding drug abuse and misuse, the white paper calls for a concerted national strategy. That is what I thought Scotland Against Drugs was all about. It is a pity for us in the SNP that we are returning to a situation where the funding for tackling drug misuse is not ring-fenced as it has been before.

The Scottish National party welcomes what is in this document, but we want more focused resources and better targeting. We also want the appointment of a public health minister to ensure that public health is not allowed to slide down the agenda, as happened before.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3577977+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C706270", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 283.0, "ContributionID": 706270, "EditedText": "Will Iain Gray give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Iain Gray give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3577977+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706274", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 291.0, "ContributionID": 706274, "EditedText": "Not in the last minute.", "EditedTextHTML": "Not in the last minute.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706281", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 305.0, "ContributionID": 706281, "EditedText": "If you had intervened it would have been longer.", "EditedTextHTML": "If you had intervened it would have been longer.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706286", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26725, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 312.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 312.0, "ID": 26725, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 314.0, "ContributionID": 706286, "EditedText": "There are three questions before the chamber. The first is, that amendment S1M-105.1, in the name of Mary Scanlon, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "There are three questions before the chamber. The first is, that amendment S1M-105.1, in the name of Mary Scanlon, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706290", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26725, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 312.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 312.0, "ID": 26725, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 321.0, "ContributionID": 706290, "EditedText": "The result of the division is as follows: For 18, Against 94, Abstentions 0.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result of the division is as follows: For 18, Against 94, Abstentions 0.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706291", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26725, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 312.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 312.0, "ID": 26725, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 323.0, "ContributionID": 706291, "EditedText": "Amendment disagreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment disagreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706295", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26725, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 312.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 312.0, "ID": 26725, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 328.0, "ContributionID": 706295, "EditedText": "The third question is, that motion S1M-112, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "The third question is, that motion S1M-112, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706296", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26725, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 312.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 312.0, "ID": 26725, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 330.0, "ContributionID": 706296, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706297", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26725, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 312.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 312.0, "ID": 26725, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 331.0, "ContributionID": 706297, "EditedText": "That the Parliament agrees the following designations of Lead Committees—", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament agrees the following designations of Lead Committees—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706302", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Cowal", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26726, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 334.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 334.0, "ID": 26726, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 338.0, "ContributionID": 706302, "EditedText": "That the Parliament notes with concern the economic crisis facing Cowal as a result of the continued decline in jobs and job opportunities, recent local authority cut backs, the perilous state of repair of Dunoon Pier, and the uncertain future of the Caledonian MacBrayne ferry link, and welcomes the call by the Dunoon Observer for an inclusive, all party campaign to seek assistance for the area and to act as a focus for the regeneration of this important part of Argyll.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament notes with concern the economic crisis facing Cowal as a result of the continued decline in jobs and job opportunities, recent local authority cut backs, the perilous state of repair of Dunoon Pier, and the uncertain future of the Caledonian MacBrayne ferry link, and welcomes the call by the Dunoon Observer for an inclusive, all party campaign to seek assistance for the area and to act as a focus for the regeneration of this important part of Argyll.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1985E207P501C706303", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Cowal", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26726, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 334.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 334.0, "ID": 26726, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hamilton, Mr Duncan", "ID": 1985, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Duncan Hamilton (Highlands and Islands) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 340.0, "ContributionID": 706303, "EditedText": "For how long may I speak?", "EditedTextHTML": "For how long may I speak?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1985E207P501C706305", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Cowal", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26726, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 334.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 334.0, "ID": 26726, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hamilton, Mr Duncan", "ID": 1985, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Hamilton: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 344.0, "ContributionID": 706305, "EditedText": "That may be more than I need.The debate today on the regeneration of the Cowal economy is the culmination of a campaign that was launched locally with the support of most of the local members of the Scottish Parliament and with the local authority, and I thank them all for their contributions. In particular, I thank the Dunoon Observer and Argyllshire Standard, which has been an enormously successful campaigning newspaper. I am sure that we will have contributions from members of all parties. My thanks also go to Maureen Macmillan, George Lyon and Michael Russell, who have played an important role in signing this motion and making sure that it got on to the agenda. It is important to outline simply what the current problem is with the Cowal economy. Of course, the issue is complicated, as Alasdair Morrison will know from his recent visit, but, over the past couple of years, there has undoubtedly been a drop-off in the level of tourist activity on the peninsula, sometimes by 30 or 40 per cent: a cumulative hit that no economy could sustain. The Cowal peninsula and the whole of Argyll rely disproportionately on tourism for their income, especially since the pull-out of the American base. The area has not been helped by the policy of the strong currency, which seems to have been encouraged by the Government in Westminster. I can inform the minister and the Parliament that the anger at the insensitivity of the policy, which ignores the needs of the local economy, should not be underestimated. I am sure that local businesses will have taken the opportunity to make clear to the deputy minister their disgust at the level of attention that they have received over the past while. It is also important to understand that one of the major problems for Dunoon is that, as a regional retail centre, it has taken a damaging hit following what happened across the water in Gourock. We will come back to the link between Dunoon and Gourock later in the debate, because it is pivotal to the plan for regeneration. The area's decline is mirrored in the population. In the period 1991-97, the population of the area has declined by approximately 7 per cent. The figures from the voluntary census that Argyll and Bute Council took in 1999 show that the population appears to be down to less than 15,000. That gives a sense of a community in decline. The area needs to be built up, but the figures are going in the wrong direction. Unemployment is central to the motion before Parliament. The unemployment rate on the peninsula—7.2 per cent—is substantially above the average of 5 per cent in the area served by Argyll and the Islands Enterprise, which is part of Highlands and Islands Enterprise. The momentum is a downward spiral. Local concern has reached this Parliament—there is no chance that that would have happened in Westminster, given the lack of time there. It is important for the prestige of this Parliament— certainly in the part of the world that we are talking about—that we have had the opportunity to have this debate, which I very much welcome. However, people in the area are looking for more than warm words; we want concerted action from the Scottish Executive to ensure that the problems can be alleviated and turned around. It has been suggested that there has been an overreaction to this problem and that it is not as bad as we think. I have to say that the mood on the ground is that we must be aware of the reality of the problem. That is the mood not just from businesses, which are perhaps the best weather vane of this, and not just from people who see the rundown in the quality of the buildings and the number of people in the town, but from the council, which is talking about setting up a Cowal regeneration task force specifically charged with making sure that we draw together all the interest groups—including politicians, economic groups or whatever—to ensure that we drive things forward and make others aware of the reality of the problem. What do we do about the problem? That is the basis of this debate.", "EditedTextHTML": "That may be more than I need.

The debate today on the regeneration of the Cowal economy is the culmination of a campaign that was launched locally with the support of most of the local members of the Scottish Parliament and with the local authority, and I thank them all for their contributions. In particular, I thank the Dunoon Observer and Argyllshire Standard, which has been an enormously successful campaigning newspaper. I am sure that we will have contributions from members of all parties. My thanks also go to Maureen Macmillan, George Lyon and Michael Russell, who have played an important role in signing this motion and making sure that it got on to the agenda.

It is important to outline simply what the current problem is with the Cowal economy. Of course, the issue is complicated, as Alasdair Morrison will know from his recent visit, but, over the past couple of years, there has undoubtedly been a drop-off in the level of tourist activity on the peninsula, sometimes by 30 or 40 per cent: a cumulative hit that no economy could sustain. The Cowal peninsula and the whole of Argyll rely disproportionately on tourism for their income, especially since the pull-out of the American base.

The area has not been helped by the policy of the strong currency, which seems to have been encouraged by the Government in Westminster. I can inform the minister and the Parliament that the anger at the insensitivity of the policy, which ignores the needs of the local economy, should not be underestimated. I am sure that local businesses will have taken the opportunity to make clear to the deputy minister their disgust at the level of attention that they have received over the past while.

It is also important to understand that one of the major problems for Dunoon is that, as a regional retail centre, it has taken a damaging hit following what happened across the water in Gourock. We will come back to the link between Dunoon and Gourock later in the debate, because it is pivotal to the plan for regeneration.

The area's decline is mirrored in the population. In the period 1991-97, the population of the area has declined by approximately 7 per cent. The figures from the voluntary census that Argyll and Bute Council took in 1999 show that the population appears to be down to less than 15,000. That gives a sense of a community in decline. The area needs to be built up, but the figures are going in the wrong direction.

Unemployment is central to the motion before Parliament. The unemployment rate on the peninsula—7.2 per cent—is substantially above the average of 5 per cent in the area served by Argyll and the Islands Enterprise, which is part of Highlands and Islands Enterprise.

The momentum is a downward spiral. Local concern has reached this Parliament—there is no chance that that would have happened in Westminster, given the lack of time there. It is important for the prestige of this Parliament— certainly in the part of the world that we are talking about—that we have had the opportunity to have this debate, which I very much welcome. However, people in the area are looking for more than warm words; we want concerted action from the Scottish Executive to ensure that the problems can be alleviated and turned around.

It has been suggested that there has been an overreaction to this problem and that it is not as bad as we think. I have to say that the mood on the ground is that we must be aware of the reality of the problem. That is the mood not just from businesses, which are perhaps the best weather vane of this, and not just from people who see the rundown in the quality of the buildings and the number of people in the town, but from the council, which is talking about setting up a Cowal regeneration task force specifically charged with making sure that we draw together all the interest groups—including politicians, economic groups or whatever—to ensure that we drive things forward and make others aware of the reality of the problem.

What do we do about the problem? That is the basis of this debate.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C706308", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Cowal", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26726, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 334.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 334.0, "ID": 26726, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 350.0, "ContributionID": 706308, "EditedText": "I am sorry, I meant Faslane.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry, I meant Faslane.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1985E207P501C706309", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Cowal", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26726, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 334.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 334.0, "ID": 26726, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hamilton, Mr Duncan", "ID": 1985, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Hamilton: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 352.0, "ContributionID": 706309, "EditedText": "The real problem in the Cowal economy is not caused by the leftovers of the removal of the US naval base. It is caused by real, current economic problems. Phil Gallie represents a party—he represented it in the Westminster Parliament, too—that has not served Argyll and Bute well and has not served the Cowal peninsula well. A lot of the problems go back to a lack of investment at a much earlier stage. I look forward to the regeneration of the Tory party in terms of a base of ideas for positive thinking. It is not enough to tell the SNP that, because we took a principled stance against nuclear weapons, we are responsible for the current plight of the Cowal economy. We have to do a bit better than that, Mr Gallie. The key to the problem is the rebuilding of Dunoon pier, which will be more memorable to many older members in terms of trips doon the watter than it is to me. That experience is not really open to people of our generation—I say that to the deputy minister. The problem is largely that the pier is falling down. According to the report commissioned by the Argyll and Bute Council transport and property chiefs, it is unsafe: 40tonne lorries cannot disembark on the pier and, unless there is massive investment—initially about £50,000 to patch it up as an interim measure—17tonne vehicles will not be able to use it either. That is not good enough for business, given that we are looking at rebuilding the area and providing a quality transport link. We are in a catch-22 situation because, until we get funding for the pier, which the cash-strapped council is in no position to give, Caledonian MacBrayne cannot guarantee the ferry link. Moreover, until the Deloitte & Touche report into the maintenance of the link between Gourock and Dunoon is published, the council cannot ask for money for the pier. We must have an early resolution of that problem. It is important that we see the matter as an integrated transport problem. This is not just about building the pier because it looks nice; a rebuilt pier will be the driver for growth in the area. Professor Neil Kay is the foremost expert on the ferry routes in the area and on the need for regeneration and how we achieve it. He wrote in the Dunoon Observer and Argyllshire Standard, which I mentioned earlier: \"There are two things to bear in mind as far as Dunoon pier is concerned. It is an integral part of the public transport system—buses and trains—which is now Government policy. That wasn't the case when the Deloitte and Touche report was commissioned. Secondly, the cross-Clyde run is similar to the Forth bridges in terms of being a transport link across a major estuary . . . it is a mistake to say the pier is just for Dunoon. The pier has symbolic importance but it is much more than that—it is actually part of a major transport route.\" I ask members to view the problem in its proper environment. However, when discussing the ferries, we need to consider the history of the Deloitte & Touche report. We have been waiting for well over a year since the leaked version of the report was published to find out what is going on. The Minister for Transport and the Environment simply refuses to give any indication of when that report will be available, and in the meantime the axe hangs over the CalMac ferry route into Dunoon pier. That is not good enough. In a written answer last week the minister told me that the report would be published \"soon\". I am afraid that soon has been a very long time. It is about time that we saw this report, so that we can end the uncertainty. When the Deputy Minister for the Highlands and Islands and Gaelic comes to respond, I would welcome some indication— perhaps even a date—of when we will be able to see it. The report affects so many lives and so many livelihoods that there are no grounds for concealing it any longer. We must also bear in mind the fact that there are two ferry routes in this area; some members may not be aware of that. One is run by Western Ferries, and one by Caledonian MacBrayne. Local people want us to move away from the idea that only one or other of those routes can be maintained. We want the CalMac route to be maintained and have no problem with the maintenance of the Western Ferries route. We want to avoid monopoly pricing and a situation in which Western Ferries, which handles a substantial amount of traffic, is able to charge through the nose for that. We do not want private business to be run out. I do not see why it is impossible for the Government to put fair competition at the heart of its strategy. The restrictions under which CalMac operates at the moment mean that we have far from fair competition. It is important to recognise that Western Ferries deals largely with the lucrative end of the market— vehicle traffic. However, its passenger safety provisions are not to anything like the same standard as CalMac's. It has a different form of craft, and the Western Ferries port is way out of town. Professor Kay has estimated that the impact on Dunoon of traffic simply passing through on its way up the peninsula, without attempting to stop in the town, would be enormously detrimental to the whole peninsula. We have to examine this issue in terms of economic regeneration. It is also important to recognise that, even if we were to get rid of CalMac tomorrow, Western Ferries does not have the capacity, in terms either of craft or of current facilities, to deal with all the traffic. That is a logistical fact. Above all, if we want to regenerate the area, we must think about the impact on business. Again, I come back to Professor Kay, who is assuming a somewhat legendary status! He says something very interesting from a business perspective. When he was asked what he thought the current climate would mean for a business, he replied: \"You can't really begin to talk about the future of the community until you have established a secure transport base. If I were a firm looking at locating over here I would just look at the uncertainty over transport that has existed here for some years. That would worry me because if it did come down to one transport operator then how are prices to be regulated? There is no regulatory structure in place for dealing with that.\" That, in a nutshell, is the argument against a monopoly. It is why we need not only the maintenance, with additional Government money, of Dunoon pier, but an early commitment to the CalMac route to Gourock, to fair competition between the thriving Western Ferries and the vital service provided by CalMac, and to the crucial and traditional Dunoon pier.", "EditedTextHTML": "The real problem in the Cowal economy is not caused by the leftovers of the removal of the US naval base. It is caused by real, current economic problems. Phil Gallie represents a party—he represented it in the Westminster Parliament, too—that has not served Argyll and Bute well and has not served the Cowal peninsula well. A lot of the problems go back to a lack of investment at a much earlier stage. I look forward to the regeneration of the Tory party in terms of a base of ideas for positive thinking. It is not enough to tell the SNP that, because we took a principled stance against nuclear weapons, we are responsible for the current plight of the Cowal economy. We have to do a bit better than that, Mr Gallie.

The key to the problem is the rebuilding of Dunoon pier, which will be more memorable to many older members in terms of trips doon the watter than it is to me. That experience is not really open to people of our generation—I say that to the deputy minister. The problem is largely that the pier is falling down. According to the report commissioned by the Argyll and Bute Council transport and property chiefs, it is unsafe: 40tonne lorries cannot disembark on the pier and, unless there is massive investment—initially about £50,000 to patch it up as an interim measure—17tonne vehicles will not be able to use it either. That is not good enough for business, given that we are looking at rebuilding the area and providing a quality transport link.

We are in a catch-22 situation because, until we get funding for the pier, which the cash-strapped council is in no position to give, Caledonian MacBrayne cannot guarantee the ferry link. Moreover, until the Deloitte & Touche report into the maintenance of the link between Gourock and Dunoon is published, the council cannot ask for money for the pier. We must have an early resolution of that problem. It is important that we see the matter as an integrated transport problem. This is not just about building the pier because it looks nice; a rebuilt pier will be the driver for growth in the area.

Professor Neil Kay is the foremost expert on the ferry routes in the area and on the need for regeneration and how we achieve it. He wrote in the Dunoon Observer and Argyllshire Standard, which I mentioned earlier:

\"There are two things to bear in mind as far as Dunoon pier is concerned. It is an integral part of the public transport system—buses and trains—which is now Government policy. That wasn't the case when the Deloitte and Touche report was commissioned. Secondly, the cross-Clyde run is similar to the Forth bridges in terms of being a transport link across a major estuary . . . it is a mistake to say the pier is just for Dunoon. The pier has symbolic importance but it is much more than that—it is actually part of a major transport route.\"

I ask members to view the problem in its proper environment.

However, when discussing the ferries, we need to consider the history of the Deloitte & Touche report. We have been waiting for well over a year since the leaked version of the report was published to find out what is going on. The Minister for Transport and the Environment simply refuses to give any indication of when that report will be available, and in the meantime the axe hangs over the CalMac ferry route into Dunoon pier. That is not good enough.

In a written answer last week the minister told me that the report would be published \"soon\". I am afraid that soon has been a very long time. It is about time that we saw this report, so that we can end the uncertainty. When the Deputy Minister for the Highlands and Islands and Gaelic comes to respond, I would welcome some indication— perhaps even a date—of when we will be able to see it. The report affects so many lives and so many livelihoods that there are no grounds for concealing it any longer.

We must also bear in mind the fact that there are two ferry routes in this area; some members may not be aware of that. One is run by Western Ferries, and one by Caledonian MacBrayne. Local people want us to move away from the idea that only one or other of those routes can be maintained. We want the CalMac route to be maintained and have no problem with the maintenance of the Western Ferries route. We want to avoid monopoly pricing and a situation in which Western Ferries, which handles a substantial amount of traffic, is able to charge through the nose for that. We do not want private business to be run out. I do not see why it is impossible for the Government to put fair competition at the heart of its strategy. The restrictions under which CalMac operates at the moment mean that we have far from fair competition.

It is important to recognise that Western Ferries deals largely with the lucrative end of the market— vehicle traffic. However, its passenger safety provisions are not to anything like the same standard as CalMac's. It has a different form of craft, and the Western Ferries port is way out of town. Professor Kay has estimated that the impact on Dunoon of traffic simply passing through on its

way up the peninsula, without attempting to stop in the town, would be enormously detrimental to the whole peninsula. We have to examine this issue in terms of economic regeneration.

It is also important to recognise that, even if we were to get rid of CalMac tomorrow, Western Ferries does not have the capacity, in terms either of craft or of current facilities, to deal with all the traffic. That is a logistical fact.

Above all, if we want to regenerate the area, we must think about the impact on business. Again, I come back to Professor Kay, who is assuming a somewhat legendary status! He says something very interesting from a business perspective. When he was asked what he thought the current climate would mean for a business, he replied:

\"You can't really begin to talk about the future of the community until you have established a secure transport base.

If I were a firm looking at locating over here I would just look at the uncertainty over transport that has existed here for some years.

That would worry me because if it did come down to one transport operator then how are prices to be regulated? There is no regulatory structure in place for dealing with that.\"

That, in a nutshell, is the argument against a monopoly. It is why we need not only the maintenance, with additional Government money, of Dunoon pier, but an early commitment to the CalMac route to Gourock, to fair competition between the thriving Western Ferries and the vital service provided by CalMac, and to the crucial and traditional Dunoon pier.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1840E82P158C706311", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Cowal", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26726, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 334.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 334.0, "ID": 26726, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macmillan, Maureen", "ID": 1840, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Maureen Macmillan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Maureen Macmillan (Highlands and Islands) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 357.0, "ContributionID": 706311, "EditedText": "I think that Duncan is over-egging the pudding when he says that Cowal is entering a spiral of total decline. I phoned Argyll and Bute Council about this, and the statistics that it gave me did not bear that out. The council said that it did not consider the Cowal area, apart from the west of Cowal around Tighnabruaich, to be a fragile area, that Dunoon had received a good deal of investment recently, and that it was surprised by the vehemence of Duncan's motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "I think that Duncan is over-egging the pudding when he says that Cowal is entering a spiral of total decline. I phoned Argyll and Bute Council about this, and the statistics that it gave me did not bear that out. The council said that it did not consider the Cowal area, apart from the west of Cowal around Tighnabruaich, to be a fragile area, that Dunoon had received a good deal of investment recently, and that it was surprised by the vehemence of Duncan's motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2066E64P88C706314", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Cowal", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26726, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 334.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 334.0, "ID": 26726, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McGrigor, Jamie", "ID": 2066, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie McGrigor", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Jamie McGrigor (Highlands and Islands) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 364.0, "ContributionID": 706314, "EditedText": "I welcome this debate on the future of the Cowal peninsula, which is an important part of Argyll and Bute and should be an obvious gateway to the Highlands and Islands. I congratulate Duncan Hamilton on taking forward the initiative of the Dunoon Observer and Argyllshire Standard. Transport infrastructure is the key to the region. The Cowal peninsula is in many ways similar to an island and two election campaigns in the western isles and a lifetime have made me aware of how crucial ferry services are to those areas. Cowal's economy, which had become reliant on the Holy loch base, is now very fragile. The agriculture industry is in a chronic depression and while prices plummet, so does the level of employment in an area that has the second highest unemployment in Argyll and Bute. Forestry, which used to provide a lot of jobs when the commission employed its own workers in the forestry villages, employs hardly anyone. Most of the work is done by outside contractors. That policy could be reversed by using local labour for planting, husbandry and felling. If much more were made of them, Forest Enterprise's outdoor sporting and leisure resources could help those villages to become healthy communities again. Dunoon's shopkeepers are not making money. People find it easier to shop where the goods are cheaper—across the water—and what is the point of charging people to park in Dunoon when there is no serious parking problem? It smells of bureaucracy and drives people away. The welcome addition of a marina at Sandbank will create some jobs and restore and improve the appearance of the area. It is vital that we attract more such inward investment to the area, but that will be difficult while the uncertainty about the pier and the ferries remains. Dunoon pier is an attractive legacy of the Victorian era. It is a focal point in Dunoon and I believe that a breakwater should be built to protect it and that it should be restored and used commercially as a point of interest in the town. A roll-on, roll-off pier facility should be built, because that is the sort of ferry that will be used in future for short-haul trips. The two ferry companies should continue in a spirit of healthy competition. Dunoon and the Cowal peninsula's beauty will always sell the area as a place to live in or visit, but financial incentive must be forthcoming to encourage people to make their homes there even if their jobs are across the water. I cannot leave this debate without mentioning the special islands needs allowance, which Argyll and Bute, with its numerous islands, should surely now receive, or without mentioning that lower fuel costs are the other vital key to restoring our remoter rural areas. Dunoon and Cowal are steeped in history. Let us take a leaf out of America's book, and provide our rural areas with sound infrastructure and better access so that they can help restore their former prosperity themselves. We must remember that an economy that becomes dependent on a military or naval base is bound to suffer, at least temporarily, from a forced withdrawal. The inhabitants of Benbecula are about to experience the same problem, and shudder to think what effect the closure of Faslane would have on Helensburgh and the surrounding areas if the Scottish National party was to implement its pledge to remove Trident. Last, Para Handy and his puffer the Vital Spark were famous, frequent visitors to Dunoon. What Dunoon and Cowal need is the Vital Spark once again.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome this debate on the future of the Cowal peninsula, which is an important part of Argyll and Bute and should be an obvious gateway to the Highlands and Islands. I congratulate

Duncan Hamilton on taking forward the initiative of the Dunoon Observer and Argyllshire Standard.

Transport infrastructure is the key to the region. The Cowal peninsula is in many ways similar to an island and two election campaigns in the western isles and a lifetime have made me aware of how crucial ferry services are to those areas.

Cowal's economy, which had become reliant on the Holy loch base, is now very fragile. The agriculture industry is in a chronic depression and while prices plummet, so does the level of employment in an area that has the second highest unemployment in Argyll and Bute.

Forestry, which used to provide a lot of jobs when the commission employed its own workers in the forestry villages, employs hardly anyone. Most of the work is done by outside contractors. That policy could be reversed by using local labour for planting, husbandry and felling. If much more were made of them, Forest Enterprise's outdoor sporting and leisure resources could help those villages to become healthy communities again.

Dunoon's shopkeepers are not making money. People find it easier to shop where the goods are cheaper—across the water—and what is the point of charging people to park in Dunoon when there is no serious parking problem? It smells of bureaucracy and drives people away.

The welcome addition of a marina at Sandbank will create some jobs and restore and improve the appearance of the area. It is vital that we attract more such inward investment to the area, but that will be difficult while the uncertainty about the pier and the ferries remains.

Dunoon pier is an attractive legacy of the Victorian era. It is a focal point in Dunoon and I believe that a breakwater should be built to protect it and that it should be restored and used commercially as a point of interest in the town.

A roll-on, roll-off pier facility should be built, because that is the sort of ferry that will be used in future for short-haul trips. The two ferry companies should continue in a spirit of healthy competition. Dunoon and the Cowal peninsula's beauty will always sell the area as a place to live in or visit, but financial incentive must be forthcoming to encourage people to make their homes there even if their jobs are across the water.

I cannot leave this debate without mentioning the special islands needs allowance, which Argyll and Bute, with its numerous islands, should surely now receive, or without mentioning that lower fuel costs are the other vital key to restoring our remoter rural areas. Dunoon and Cowal are steeped in history. Let us take a leaf out of America's book, and provide our rural areas with sound infrastructure and better access so that they can help restore their former prosperity themselves.

We must remember that an economy that becomes dependent on a military or naval base is bound to suffer, at least temporarily, from a forced withdrawal. The inhabitants of Benbecula are about to experience the same problem, and shudder to think what effect the closure of Faslane would have on Helensburgh and the surrounding areas if the Scottish National party was to implement its pledge to remove Trident.

Last, Para Handy and his puffer the Vital Spark were famous, frequent visitors to Dunoon. What Dunoon and Cowal need is the Vital Spark once again.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C706315", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Cowal", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26726, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 334.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 334.0, "ID": 26726, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon (Argyll and Bute) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 367.0, "ContributionID": 706315, "EditedText": "I believe that Jamie will find that the Vital Spark is moored at the end of the Crinan canal, so we might see it back in Dunoon again. I welcome this debate; we have found ourselves in an interesting situation, in that the first question in the Scottish Parliament was on the issue of the Cowal-Dunoon ferry service and the first members' debate after the recess is on the Cowal situation again. That is what the Scottish Parliament is about. Both Duncan and Jamie have mentioned uncertainty. The crucial issue in this debate is the uncertainty hanging over Dunoon pier and the future of CalMac on the Clyde. That has an impact even further down the Clyde, on the Rothesay- Wemyss Bay service, in which I have a passing interest. The Cowal economy has experienced some difficult times resulting from the closure of the Holy loch base, but uncertainty about the future of Dunoon pier and the ferry service is having a detrimental effect on investment decisions in the area. Indeed, the chief executive of Western Ferries told me yesterday that it has suspended its decision to purchase a new boat until this issue has been resolved. That is a clear example of the effects of the uncertainty. Amid the talk of crisis, we have to be careful and take a balanced approach. There are some good- news stories in among the doom and gloom. The number of telecommunications service centres has expanded rapidly over the past two years; indeed, with the opening of a second centre, the number of employees in that sector will increase from some 70 to 170. The minister and I visited Database Direct yesterday. It announced that the number of its employees is increasing from 87 to 119. Those are full-time jobs. There is some expansion there.", "EditedTextHTML": "I believe that Jamie will find that the Vital Spark is moored at the end of the Crinan canal, so we might see it back in Dunoon again.

I welcome this debate; we have found ourselves in an interesting situation, in that the first question in the Scottish Parliament was on the issue of the Cowal-Dunoon ferry service and the first members' debate after the recess is on the Cowal situation again. That is what the Scottish Parliament is about.

Both Duncan and Jamie have mentioned uncertainty. The crucial issue in this debate is the uncertainty hanging over Dunoon pier and the future of CalMac on the Clyde. That has an impact even further down the Clyde, on the Rothesay- Wemyss Bay service, in which I have a passing interest.

The Cowal economy has experienced some difficult times resulting from the closure of the Holy loch base, but uncertainty about the future of Dunoon pier and the ferry service is having a detrimental effect on investment decisions in the area. Indeed, the chief executive of Western Ferries told me yesterday that it has suspended its decision to purchase a new boat until this issue has been resolved. That is a clear example of the effects of the uncertainty.

Amid the talk of crisis, we have to be careful and take a balanced approach. There are some good- news stories in among the doom and gloom. The number of telecommunications service centres has expanded rapidly over the past two years; indeed, with the opening of a second centre, the number of employees in that sector will increase from some 70 to 170. The minister and I visited Database Direct yesterday. It announced that the number of its employees is increasing from 87 to

119. Those are full-time jobs. There is some expansion there.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1889E118P162C706325", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Cowal", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26726, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 334.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 334.0, "ID": 26726, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morrison, Mr Alasdair", "ID": 1889, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Western Isles" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morrison", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Morrison: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 389.0, "ContributionID": 706325, "EditedText": "I have already gone over by 30 seconds, so I cannot let Fergus intervene. Important public policy issues are involved. There are transport links involving subsidised competition with a private operator and there is a call, against very tight expenditure constraints, for significant investment in new infrastructure. My colleague the Minister for Transport and the Environment, Sarah Boyack, has made it plain that a consultation document on options for the future of ferry services between Gourock and Dunoon will soon be made publicly available. I can assure Duncan Hamilton and the people of Cowal that Sarah Boyack and other ministers approach the consultation process with open minds and with no preconceptions. One issue that is intimately tied up with such considerations is the condition of Dunoon pier. As Jamie McGrigor pointed out, it is a Victorian landmark which, along with the castle hill and the statue of Burns's Highland Mary, makes up what many generations have recognised as the classic view of Dunoon—a view that I enjoyed yesterday. The pier is owned by Argyll and Bute Council and the maintenance of the infrastructure, which has listed building status, is therefore the responsibility of the council. In conclusion, I remind everyone here that the motto of Dunoon, as we all know, is \"Forward\". I am confident that it will continue to move precisely in that direction. It will do so with a great deal of good will from me and from the other members of the Executive.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have already gone over by 30 seconds, so I cannot let Fergus intervene.

Important public policy issues are involved. There are transport links involving subsidised competition with a private operator and there is a call, against very tight expenditure constraints, for significant investment in new infrastructure.

My colleague the Minister for Transport and the Environment, Sarah Boyack, has made it plain that a consultation document on options for the future of ferry services between Gourock and Dunoon will soon be made publicly available. I can assure Duncan Hamilton and the people of Cowal that Sarah Boyack and other ministers approach the consultation process with open minds and with no preconceptions.

One issue that is intimately tied up with such considerations is the condition of Dunoon pier. As Jamie McGrigor pointed out, it is a Victorian landmark which, along with the castle hill and the statue of Burns's Highland Mary, makes up what many generations have recognised as the classic view of Dunoon—a view that I enjoyed yesterday.

The pier is owned by Argyll and Bute Council and the maintenance of the infrastructure, which has listed building status, is therefore the responsibility of the council.

In conclusion, I remind everyone here that the motto of Dunoon, as we all know, is \"Forward\". I am confident that it will continue to move precisely in that direction. It will do so with a great deal of good will from me and from the other members of the Executive.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706143", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Wednesday 1 September 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26720, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26720, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 9.0, "ContributionID": 706143, "EditedText": "We shall take that on board.", "EditedTextHTML": "We shall take that on board.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.6078156+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706145", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Wednesday 1 September 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26720, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26720, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 13.0, "ContributionID": 706145, "EditedText": "I do not think that that is correct, Mr Neil. However, I shall take further advice on the matter. The concordats are informal documents; they do not have a status requiring parliamentary approval.", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not think that that is correct, Mr Neil. However, I shall take further advice on the matter. The concordats are informal documents; they do not have a status requiring parliamentary approval.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.6078156+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706147", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Wednesday 1 September 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26720, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26720, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 17.0, "ContributionID": 706147, "EditedText": "I do not think that I have any such authority.", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not think that I have any such authority.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.6078156+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2228E151P202C706149", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26721, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 19.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 19.0, "ID": 26721, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McCabe, Tom", "ID": 2228, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Tom McCabe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Parliament (Mr Tom McCabe) rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 23.0, "ContributionID": 706149, "EditedText": "Laughter.", "EditedTextHTML": "

[Laughter.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.6078156+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706153", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26721, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 19.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 19.0, "ID": 26721, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 31.0, "ContributionID": 706153, "EditedText": "You may do so, provided that it is in the guise of speaking against the motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "You may do so, provided that it is in the guise of speaking against the motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.6078156+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706155", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26721, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 19.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 19.0, "ID": 26721, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 35.0, "ContributionID": 706155, "EditedText": "Those questions do not really arise out of the minister's statement. Mr McCabe, do you want to respond to that?", "EditedTextHTML": "Those questions do not really arise out of the minister's statement. Mr McCabe, do you want to respond to that?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.6078156+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C706158", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26721, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 19.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 19.0, "ID": 26721, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 41.0, "ContributionID": 706158, "EditedText": "In light of what has just happened, perhaps you can advise me, Sir David, on how to elicit a response to my question.", "EditedTextHTML": "In light of what has just happened, perhaps you can advise me, Sir David, on how to elicit a response to my question.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.6078156+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C706164", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Continental Tyres", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26722, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 46.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 46.0, "ID": 26722, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 54.0, "ContributionID": 706164, "EditedText": "First, I am grateful for the association of the SNP with concerns about the work force and I want to express our appreciation for the work of Harry Donaldson of the General, Municipal and Boilermakers Union in particular. They have been intimately involved in this at every step of the way. Mr Swinney raised three specific points. I will put the reference to sterling's importance into context. In the first quarter of 1999 it was clear that manufacturing exports from Scotland were up by 8.3 per cent over the previous four quarters. The volume of exports was up in a very difficult trading situation. How much that weighed on Continental is a matter for that company. I want to respond robustly to Mr Swinney's second point. I must say—although it is not my natural style to talk about the injection of party politics into a serious issue—there was much made of the lack of activity of the Executive and the previous ministers. If the SNP had followed up on my telephone call to Fiona Hyslop, it would have found that on 30 occasions between 1993 and 1999 officials of the Scottish Office and this Executive or ministers had been in touch with the company. We were there at every conceivable point, not only in terms of training packages, which are crucial in restructuring work forces and shift patterns, but in terms of offering a different future that the company might want to examine. At the end of the day the company must make its own decisions, but I refute utterly the criticisms—particularly those that were made by certain members of the SNP—regarding a zero response. That simply did not happen. We wish that the outcome could have been different but it was for no lack of trying that it was not. If people want to make cheap political points out of that, they can; but we have been sincerely involved with the work force and, for six years, we have tried to do what was best by the company and by Scotland. The company minute about the Government's zero response to the situation was prepared after a video-conference between people at Newbridge and in Germany. I do not know why the note was written in that way. When I spoke to Dr Holzbach, he did not want to be associated with that interpretation of the minute and has, on numerous occasions, said that the Government has always been there to respond if required. As I said in my statement, the Government was there to help, but at times there was no response. That was the company's wish.", "EditedTextHTML": "First, I am grateful for the association of the SNP with concerns about the

work force and I want to express our appreciation for the work of Harry Donaldson of the General, Municipal and Boilermakers Union in particular. They have been intimately involved in this at every step of the way.

Mr Swinney raised three specific points. I will put the reference to sterling's importance into context. In the first quarter of 1999 it was clear that manufacturing exports from Scotland were up by

8.3 per cent over the previous four quarters. The volume of exports was up in a very difficult trading situation. How much that weighed on Continental is a matter for that company. I want to respond robustly to Mr Swinney's second point. I must say—although it is not my natural style to talk about the injection of party politics into a serious issue—there was much made of the lack of activity of the Executive and the previous ministers. If the SNP had followed up on my telephone call to Fiona Hyslop, it would have found that on 30 occasions between 1993 and 1999 officials of the Scottish Office and this Executive or ministers had been in touch with the company. We were there at every conceivable point, not only in terms of training packages, which are crucial in restructuring work forces and shift patterns, but in terms of offering a different future that the company might want to examine.

At the end of the day the company must make its own decisions, but I refute utterly the criticisms—particularly those that were made by certain members of the SNP—regarding a zero response. That simply did not happen. We wish that the outcome could have been different but it was for no lack of trying that it was not. If people want to make cheap political points out of that, they can; but we have been sincerely involved with the work force and, for six years, we have tried to do what was best by the company and by Scotland.

The company minute about the Government's zero response to the situation was prepared after a video-conference between people at Newbridge and in Germany. I do not know why the note was written in that way. When I spoke to Dr Holzbach, he did not want to be associated with that interpretation of the minute and has, on numerous occasions, said that the Government has always been there to respond if required. As I said in my statement, the Government was there to help, but at times there was no response. That was the company's wish.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.6078156+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C706166", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Continental Tyres", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26722, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 46.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 46.0, "ID": 26722, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 58.0, "ContributionID": 706166, "EditedText": "I thank Annabel Goldie for her comments on behalf of the Conservative party. The House should be united in helping the work force to move on. I can reassure Miss Goldie that the action team is not a seven-day wonder. We are embarking upon a serious programme that involves many agencies and it is important for that to succeed. I also repeat the reassurance that I gave to Mr John Swinney's Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee this morning that we will work closely with the committee and with every MSP and that we are happy to put on record what the action team is doing. It is important for MSPs to have confidence in what is happening and for the work force to know that this chamber respects and appreciates them. Annabel Goldie is right to stress that we should not approach counselling and retraining programmes in a mass or volume way, but on the basis that every individual in the plant has skills to offer and a future to be secured. I can also reassure her that everything will be done on a one-to-one basis. I have no doubt that, with the expertise and skills of the work force, such an approach will be a significant help during what will be a difficult time for the work force and their families.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank Annabel Goldie for her comments on behalf of the Conservative party. The House should be united in helping the work force to move on.

I can reassure Miss Goldie that the action team is not a seven-day wonder. We are embarking upon a serious programme that involves many agencies and it is important for that to succeed. I also repeat the reassurance that I gave to Mr John Swinney's Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee this morning that we will work closely with the committee and with every MSP and that we are happy to put on record what the action team is doing. It is important for MSPs to have confidence in what is happening and for the work force to know that this chamber respects and appreciates them.

Annabel Goldie is right to stress that we should not approach counselling and retraining programmes in a mass or volume way, but on the basis that every individual in the plant has skills to offer and a future to be secured. I can also reassure her that everything will be done on a one-to-one basis. I have no doubt that, with the expertise and skills of the work force, such an approach will be a significant help during what will be a difficult time for the work force and their families.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.6078156+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C706180", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Continental Tyres", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26722, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 46.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 46.0, "ID": 26722, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 86.0, "ContributionID": 706180, "EditedText": "On the first question, we talked about the issue prior to the closure. I have a serious message for every member, including myself, who might be involved in redundancies: we have an open-door policy; we can be telephoned and we can meet and discuss. When that video-conference was mentioned in the minute, it was of no significance because it was totally without foundation. I say to Fiona, in the most constructive way possible, that that is the way in which we should conduct our business. If people want to speak to me, I will speak to them, and I will tell them as much as possible, subject to the confidentiality often involved in inward investment issues. My wider point is that there is good news on jobs in Scotland at present. While that does not necessarily mean that people will move from Newbridge into those jobs, I want to make the point that, apart from the action team, we are working on a bewildering number of activities in Scotland, from lifelong learning to enterprise. John Swinney will testify to that from this morning's committee meeting. We have a tourism strategy, a manufacturing strategy and a science strategy, and I can reassure Fiona Hyslop that those strategies are about economic development in the wider sense. However, the key for the Executive is to focus on Newbridge and on tradeable skills, and to ensure that every person in the plant has a future—one where their families can continue with the life that they had prior to the closure announcement. Those are noble objectives to which, surely, we can all sign up.", "EditedTextHTML": "On the first question, we talked about the issue prior to the closure. I have a serious message for every member, including myself, who might be involved in redundancies: we have an open-door policy; we can be telephoned and we can meet and discuss. When that video-conference was mentioned in the minute, it was of no significance because it was totally without foundation. I say to Fiona, in the most constructive way possible, that that is the way in which we should conduct our business. If people want to speak to me, I will speak to them, and I will tell them as much as possible, subject to the confidentiality often involved in inward investment issues.

My wider point is that there is good news on jobs in Scotland at present. While that does not necessarily mean that people will move from Newbridge into those jobs, I want to make the point that, apart from the action team, we are working on a bewildering number of activities in Scotland, from lifelong learning to enterprise. John Swinney will testify to that from this morning's committee meeting. We have a tourism strategy, a manufacturing strategy and a science strategy, and I can reassure Fiona Hyslop that those strategies are about economic development in the wider sense. However, the key for the Executive is to focus on Newbridge and on tradeable skills, and to ensure that every person in the plant has a future—one where their families can continue with the life that they had prior to the closure announcement. Those are noble objectives to which, surely, we can all sign up.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.6234468+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706182", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Continental Tyres", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26722, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 46.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 46.0, "ID": 26722, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 90.0, "ContributionID": 706182, "EditedText": "I am sorry, Mr Johnston—", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry, Mr Johnston—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.6234468+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1837E108P186C706185", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Continental Tyres", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26722, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 46.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 46.0, "ID": 26722, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mulligan, Mary", "ID": 1837, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Linlithgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Mulligan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Mary Mulligan (Linlithgow) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 96.0, "ContributionID": 706185, "EditedText": "I agree with other speakers that this has been a devastating blow to the work force, even if the threat has been hanging over them for some time. One of the effects of such a blow is that the morale of the work force becomes very low and people's confidence is shattered. I have seen the task force's work plan and I know that it will set about reinstilling confidence, showing people that they can go on to find alternative employment. Does the minister agree that the work force were in no way and under no circumstances responsible for this situation? As has been said, the work force have jumped through hoops, changing shift patterns and taking wage freezes. They have been responsive to changing patterns in the marketplace; the work force have been good. Will the minister agree that, should any employers in the local area be looking to take on these people, they will find a co-operative and skilled work force who will be a boon to their business? If the work force were taken on, that would bring back life into the area.", "EditedTextHTML": "I agree with other speakers that this has been a devastating blow to the work force, even if the threat has been hanging over them for some time. One of the effects of such a blow is that the morale of the work force becomes very low and people's confidence is shattered. I have seen the task force's work plan and I know that it will set about reinstilling confidence, showing people that they can go on to find alternative employment.

Does the minister agree that the work force were in no way and under no circumstances responsible for this situation? As has been said, the work force have jumped through hoops, changing shift patterns and taking wage freezes. They have been responsive to changing patterns in the marketplace; the work force have been good.

Will the minister agree that, should any employers in the local area be looking to take on these people, they will find a co-operative and skilled work force who will be a boon to their business? If the work force were taken on, that would bring back life into the area.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.6234468+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C706186", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Continental Tyres", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26722, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 46.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 46.0, "ID": 26722, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 98.0, "ContributionID": 706186, "EditedText": "I am happy to endorse what Mary Mulligan says. The Executive has made the point that, over the past few years, the work force have attempted to work with senior management to restructure and to become involved in shift patterns—at a financial cost. Confidence is crucial, and that is why a positive message today from the Parliament to the work force will ensure that we can work together to achieve the desired outcome. The work force have real skills, determination and enthusiasm, which are very marketable. We will do everything possible to ensure that employers throughout the area know the work force are dependable and skilled people who deserve a new opportunity. That is what we will work towards.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am happy to endorse what Mary Mulligan says. The Executive has made the point that, over the past few years, the work force have attempted to work with senior management to restructure and to become involved in shift patterns—at a financial cost.

Confidence is crucial, and that is why a positive message today from the Parliament to the work force will ensure that we can work together to achieve the desired outcome. The work force have real skills, determination and enthusiasm, which are very marketable. We will do everything possible to ensure that employers throughout the area know the work force are dependable and skilled people who deserve a new opportunity. That is what we will work towards.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.6234468+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706187", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Continental Tyres", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26722, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 46.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 46.0, "ID": 26722, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 100.0, "ContributionID": 706187, "EditedText": "We must move on to the main item of business, but first I remind all members that ministerial statements are followed by questions, not by alternative statements. We were slipping a bit this afternoon.", "EditedTextHTML": "We must move on to the main item of business, but first I remind all members that ministerial statements are followed by questions, not by alternative statements. We were slipping a bit this afternoon.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.6234468+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C706163", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Continental Tyres", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26722, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 46.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 46.0, "ID": 26722, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 52.0, "ContributionID": 706163, "EditedText": "I would like to begin by associating the SNP with the minister's comments that expressed regret at the closure announcement by Continental. I extend the sympathies of the SNP to the families that are affected by the decisions that have been taken. I also give all support to the action team in their work of guaranteeing that we can assist in delivering new and alternative employment to those who have been affected by the closure announcement. I would like to put three specific points to the minister. First, I was very surprised that he made absolutely no reference to the strength of sterling in his opening remarks about the factors that had led Continental to this decision. The survival package at Continental was based on valuation of the pound at DM2.80. The pound is now valued at more than DM3.00. What significance does the Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning attach to currency, and to the damage that sterling's strength is doing to a number of key manufacturing sectors in the Scottish economy? Secondly, was the minister aware, before the closure announcement was made, of the existence of a company minute that suggested that there had been zero response to initiatives from the company for support from the Government over a period of five years? If he was aware of that minute, does he believe that it is a fair and accurate reflection of what the Government was doing? If it is not, why did the company feel it necessary to record that? Finally, in this statement the Government has presented a case for acting in a reactive rather than a proactive fashion, but the Government has not delivered the active company development support that could have been expected by a company that was facing challenges in the manufacturing sector. The Government has a great deal to learn about how to support the Scottish economy in the critical and difficult times that many of our companies face.", "EditedTextHTML": "I would like to begin by associating the SNP with the minister's comments that expressed regret at the closure announcement by Continental. I extend the sympathies of the SNP to the families that are affected by the decisions that have been taken. I also give all support to the action team in their work of guaranteeing that we can assist in delivering new and alternative employment to those who have been affected by the closure announcement.

I would like to put three specific points to the minister. First, I was very surprised that he made absolutely no reference to the strength of sterling in his opening remarks about the factors that had led Continental to this decision. The survival package at Continental was based on valuation of the pound at DM2.80. The pound is now valued at more than DM3.00. What significance does the Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning attach to currency, and to the damage that sterling's strength is doing to a number of key manufacturing sectors in the Scottish economy?

Secondly, was the minister aware, before the closure announcement was made, of the existence of a company minute that suggested that there had been zero response to initiatives from the company for support from the Government over a period of five years? If he was aware of that minute, does he believe that it is a fair and accurate reflection of what the Government was doing? If it is not, why did the company feel it necessary to record that?

Finally, in this statement the Government has presented a case for acting in a reactive rather than a proactive fashion, but the Government has not delivered the active company development support that could have been expected by a company that was facing challenges in the manufacturing sector. The Government has a great deal to learn about how to support the Scottish economy in the critical and difficult times that many of our companies face.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:03:51.8585749+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2110E214P424C706229", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gibson, Kenneth", "ID": 2110, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenneth Gibson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Kenneth Gibson (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 189.0, "ContributionID": 706229, "EditedText": "Although the white paper is a first-rate document, does the member agree that the fact that there appears to be no mention of the Executive's plans to reduce the incidence of suicide, which is at a record level in Scotland, is a serious omission?", "EditedTextHTML": "

Although the white paper is a first-rate document, does the member agree that the fact that there appears to be no mention of the Executive's plans to reduce the incidence of suicide, which is at a record level in Scotland, is a serious omission?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:05:19.2124205+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2110E214P424C706259", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gibson, Kenneth", "ID": 2110, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenneth Gibson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Gibson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 258.0, "ContributionID": 706259, "EditedText": "On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. Do you agree that, before he pontificates on the issue of tobacco, Mr Monteith should disclose that he is closely associated with the Freedom Organisation for the Right to Enjoy Smoking Tobacco?", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. Do you agree that, before he pontificates on the issue of tobacco, Mr Monteith should disclose that he is closely associated with the Freedom Organisation for the Right to Enjoy Smoking Tobacco?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:06:33.7651873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2180E179P471C706146", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Wednesday 1 September 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26720, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26720, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lochhead, Richard", "ID": 2180, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Lochhead", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Richard Lochhead (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 15.0, "ContributionID": 706146, "EditedText": "Further to Mr Neil's question, I ask for guidance as to whether you have authority to refer individual concordats to the relevant parliamentary committee for investigation.", "EditedTextHTML": "Further to Mr Neil's question, I ask for guidance as to whether you have authority to refer individual concordats to the relevant parliamentary committee for investigation.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:12.769626+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1773E197P503C706179", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Continental Tyres", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26722, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 46.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 46.0, "ID": 26722, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hyslop, Fiona", "ID": 1773, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona Hyslop", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona Hyslop: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 84.0, "ContributionID": 706179, "EditedText": "What actions has the minister taken, or will he take, to ensure that the Kirkliston area achieves assisted area status in the new proposals?", "EditedTextHTML": "What actions has the minister taken, or will he take, to ensure that the Kirkliston area achieves assisted area status in the new proposals?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:00:21.9656621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C706140", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Wednesday 1 September 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26720, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26720, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell (South of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 3.0, "ContributionID": 706140, "EditedText": "On a point of order, Presiding Officer. Like other members, I am somewhat embarrassed at having been awarded a medal. I was unaware that I was worthy of a medal, but I think that this is a serious issue. The medals, according to the business bulletin, are a presentation from the Parliament. I am unaware of the Parliament, or any of its committees, ever having discussed the matter. I think that it is somewhat premature to award medals; the people of Scotland may want to award medals after we have done our job of work. Will you inquire into how this has happened?", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order, Presiding Officer. Like other members, I am somewhat embarrassed at having been awarded a medal. I was unaware that I was worthy of a medal, but I think that this is a serious issue. The medals, according to the business bulletin, are a presentation from the Parliament. I am unaware of the Parliament, or any of its committees, ever having discussed the matter. I think that it is somewhat premature to award medals; the people of Scotland may want to award medals after we have done our job of work. Will you inquire into how this has happened?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.6078156+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C706142", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Wednesday 1 September 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26720, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26720, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 7.0, "ContributionID": 706142, "EditedText": "Will the corporate body let the members know how this happened? I think that most members are concerned about it— Interruption. Well, they should be concerned about it.", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the corporate body let the members know how this happened? I think that most members are concerned about it— [Interruption.] Well, they should be concerned about it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.6078156+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2228E151P202C706150", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26721, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 19.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 19.0, "ID": 26721, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McCabe, Tom", "ID": 2228, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Tom McCabe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McCabe: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 25.0, "ContributionID": 706150, "EditedText": "A modern Scotland for a new age. Laughter. Thank you, Sir David. This motion sets out the business for this week and for the period up to Thursday 9 September. Before moving the motion, it might be helpful if I explain some of its detail. Subject to the Parliament agreeing the terms of this motion, the business for today will be as follows. First, there will be a statement from the Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning on the proposed closing of the Continental Tyres factory at Newbridge. After that, there will be a debate on an Executive motion on the promotion of public health in Scotland. That will be followed by a formal motion to designate lead committees for Scottish statutory instruments. Decision time will be at 5 o'clock and, after that, there will be a members' business debate on motion S1M-90, in the name of Mr Duncan Hamilton, on the regeneration of Cowal. Tomorrow, 2 September, we will begin proceedings on the Parliament's first bill. The Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill aims to close the loophole in the law that was identified in a decision issued by the sheriff at Lanark sheriff court on 2 August. The bill is the result of intensive discussion and preparation and reflects the urgency given by the Executive to blocking that legislative gap. The first item of business will be a debate for up to an hour and a half on a motion to treat the mental health bill as an emergency bill. That debate will be followed by an immediate decision. Providing that that decision is in the affirmative, it will be followed by a Parliamentary Bureau motion on the timetabling of the mental health bill. Stage 1 consideration of the bill will take place immediately after the timetabling motion. The debate will last for an hour and a half and will, again, be followed immediately by a decision. On conclusion of stage 1 there will be a motion on procedures for stages 2 and 3 of the Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill. The afternoon session will begin at 2.30 with question time lasting 30 minutes, as normal. That will be followed by open question time, which will last for 15 minutes. At 3.15 there will be a debate on an Executive motion on a national cultural strategy for Scotland. Decision time will take place at 5 pm. That will be followed by a members' business debate on motion SM1-94, in the name of Maureen Macmillan, on the subject of domestic violence. Turning to next week, on Wednesday 8 September, business begins at 2.30. The first item of business will be a motion on a financial resolution required in relation to the provisions of the emergency mental health bill. Following on from that there will be a further motion on the timetabling of the debates in stages 2 and 3 of that bill. The remainder of the afternoon's business will be allocated to stages 2 and 3 consideration of the Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill. On this occasion, due to the nature of the emergency legislation, decision time will take place at 6 pm. Due to the fact that decision time has been moved to a slightly later time, no members' business is planned on Wednesday 8 September. On Thursday 9 September, the morning sitting will begin with a debate on an Executive motion on the programme for government. The debate will be concluded after question time in the afternoon. Immediately before lunch, I will move the business motion in respect of future business. Question time will begin at 2.30, lasting for 30 minutes, and open question time will follow on for a further 15 minutes. Thereafter, we will conclude the debate on the Executive motion on the programme for government. At 4.30 on Thursday 9 September, there will be a debate on a Parliamentary Bureau motion on time for reflection. That debate will be followed by a motion on membership of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association. Following that there will be motions to approve the Scottish statutory instruments. Decision time will take place at 5 pm, followed by a members' business debate, which, subject to a revision of the text in a motion from Mr Nick Johnston, will be on the subject of employment in Clackmannanshire and West Fife. The final part of the motion sets out the dates by which committees, other than the lead committee, with an interest in subordinate legislation currently before the parliament, should makerecommendations on instruments or instruments to the lead committee. any draft I move, That the Parliament agrees— (a) the following programme of business— Wednesday 1 September 1999 2.30 pm Business Motion followed by Ministerial Statement and Questions on Continental Tyres followed by Debate on an Executive motion on Public Health followed by Motion to Designate Lead Committees for Scottish Statutory Instruments (to be taken without debate) 5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business – Debate on the subject of S1M-90 Mr Duncan Hamilton: The Regeneration of Cowal Thursday 2 September 19999.30 am Debate on a motion to treat the Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill as an Emergency Bill, followed by a decision followed by, no later than 11.00 am Parliamentary Bureau motion on timetabling of the Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill (to be taken without debate), followed by a decision followed by Stage 1 debate on the Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill, followed by a decision no later than 1½ hours after the start of the debate followed by Motion on Procedures for Stages 2 and 3 of the Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill (to be taken without debate), followed by a decision 2.30 pm Question Time 3.00 pm Open Question Time followed by, no later than 3.15 pm Debate on Executive motion on National Cultural Strategy 5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business – debate on the subject of SM1-94 Maureen Macmillan: Domestic Violence Wednesday 8 September 19992.30 pm Motion on a Financial Resolution required in relation to the provisions of the Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill (to be taken without debate), followed by a decision followed by Motion on the timetabling of debates in Stages 2 and 3 of the Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill (to be taken without debate) followed by a decision followed by Debates on Stages 2 and 3 of the Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill (including decisions) 6.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business Thursday 9 September 19999.30 am Debate on an Executive motion on Programme for Government 12.20 pm Business Motion 2.30 pm Question Time 3.00 pm Open Question Time followed by, no later than 3.15 pm Conclusion of Debate on an Executive motion on Programme for Government 4.30 pm Debate on a motion on Time for Reflection followed by Motion on Membership of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association (to be taken without debate) followed by Motions to Approve SSIs (to be taken without debate) 5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business and (b), the following dates by which other committees should make any recommendations on instruments or draft instruments to the lead committee— European Committee reports to Transport & Environment Committee on the subject of The Environmental Impact Assessment (Scotland) Regulations 1999 (SSI 1999/1) by 1 October 1999 European Committee reports to Rural Affairs Committee on the subject of The Plant Health (Amendment) (Scotland) Order 1999 (SSI 1999/22) by 1 October 1999", "EditedTextHTML": "A modern Scotland for a new age. [Laughter.]

Thank you, Sir David. This motion sets out the business for this week and for the period up to Thursday 9 September. Before moving the motion, it might be helpful if I explain some of its detail. Subject to the Parliament agreeing the terms of this motion, the business for today will be as follows.

First, there will be a statement from the Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning on the proposed closing of the Continental Tyres factory at Newbridge. After that, there will be a debate on an Executive motion on the promotion of public health in Scotland. That will be followed by a formal motion to designate lead committees for Scottish statutory instruments. Decision time will be at 5 o'clock and, after that, there will be a members' business debate on motion S1M-90, in the name of Mr Duncan Hamilton, on the regeneration of Cowal.

Tomorrow, 2 September, we will begin proceedings on the Parliament's first bill. The Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill aims to close the loophole in the law that was identified in a decision issued by the sheriff at Lanark sheriff court on 2 August. The bill is the result of intensive discussion and preparation and reflects the urgency given by the Executive to blocking that legislative gap.

The first item of business will be a debate for up to an hour and a half on a motion to treat the mental health bill as an emergency bill. That debate will be followed by an immediate decision. Providing that that decision is in the affirmative, it will be followed by a Parliamentary Bureau motion on the timetabling of the mental health bill. Stage 1 consideration of the bill will take place immediately after the timetabling motion. The debate will last for an hour and a half and will, again, be followed immediately by a decision. On conclusion of stage 1 there will be a motion on procedures for stages 2 and 3 of the Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill.

The afternoon session will begin at 2.30 with question time lasting 30 minutes, as normal. That will be followed by open question time, which will last for 15 minutes. At 3.15 there will be a debate on an Executive motion on a national cultural strategy for Scotland. Decision time will take place at 5 pm. That will be followed by a members' business debate on motion SM1-94, in the name of Maureen Macmillan, on the subject of domestic violence.

Turning to next week, on Wednesday 8 September, business begins at 2.30. The first item of business will be a motion on a financial resolution required in relation to the provisions of the emergency mental health bill. Following on from that there will be a further motion on the timetabling of the debates in stages 2 and 3 of that bill. The remainder of the afternoon's business will be allocated to stages 2 and 3 consideration of the Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill. On this occasion, due to the nature of the emergency legislation, decision time will take place at 6 pm. Due to the fact that decision time has been moved to a slightly later time, no members' business is planned on Wednesday 8 September.

On Thursday 9 September, the morning sitting will begin with a debate on an Executive motion on the programme for government. The debate will be concluded after question time in the afternoon. Immediately before lunch, I will move the business motion in respect of future business.

Question time will begin at 2.30, lasting for 30 minutes, and open question time will follow on for a further 15 minutes. Thereafter, we will conclude the debate on the Executive motion on the programme for government. At 4.30 on Thursday 9 September, there will be a debate on a Parliamentary Bureau motion on time for reflection. That debate will be followed by a motion on membership of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association. Following that there will be motions to approve the Scottish statutory instruments. Decision time will take place at 5 pm, followed by a members' business debate, which, subject to a revision of the text in a motion from Mr Nick Johnston, will be on the subject of employment in Clackmannanshire and West Fife.

The final part of the motion sets out the dates by which committees, other than the lead committee, with an interest in subordinate legislation currently before the parliament, should makerecommendations on instruments or instruments to the lead committee. any draft I move, That the Parliament agrees— (a) the following programme of business— Wednesday 1 September 1999 2.30 pm Business Motion

followed by Ministerial Statement and Questions on Continental Tyres followed by Debate on an Executive motion on Public Health followed by Motion to Designate Lead Committees for Scottish Statutory Instruments (to be taken without debate)

5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business – Debate on the subject of S1M-90 Mr Duncan Hamilton: The Regeneration of Cowal

Thursday 2 September 1999

9.30 am Debate on a motion to treat the Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill as an Emergency Bill, followed by a decision followed by, no later than 11.00 am Parliamentary Bureau motion on timetabling of the Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill (to be taken without debate), followed by a decision followed by Stage 1 debate on the Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill, followed by a decision no later than 1½ hours after the start of the debate followed by Motion on Procedures for Stages 2 and 3 of the Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill (to be taken without debate), followed by a decision

2.30 pm Question Time 3.00 pm Open Question Time followed by, no later than 3.15 pm Debate on Executive motion on National Cultural Strategy

5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business – debate on the subject of SM1-94 Maureen Macmillan: Domestic Violence

Wednesday 8 September 1999

2.30 pm Motion on a Financial Resolution required in relation to the provisions of the Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill (to be taken without debate), followed by a decision followed by Motion on the timetabling of debates in Stages 2 and 3 of the Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill (to be taken without debate) followed by a decision followed by Debates on Stages 2 and 3 of the Mental Health (Public Safety and Appeals) (Scotland) Bill (including decisions) 6.00 pm Decision Time [followed by Members' Business]

Thursday 9 September 1999

9.30 am Debate on an Executive motion on Programme for Government 12.20 pm Business Motion 2.30 pm Question Time 3.00 pm Open Question Time followed by, no later than 3.15 pm Conclusion of Debate on an Executive motion on Programme for Government 4.30 pm Debate on a motion on Time for Reflection followed by Motion on Membership of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association (to be taken without debate) followed by Motions to Approve SSIs (to be taken without debate) 5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business and (b), the following dates by which other committees should make any recommendations on instruments or draft instruments to the lead committee—

European Committee reports to Transport & Environment Committee on the subject of The Environmental Impact Assessment (Scotland) Regulations 1999 (SSI 1999/1) by 1 October 1999 European Committee reports to Rural Affairs Committee on the subject of The Plant Health (Amendment) (Scotland) Order 1999 (SSI 1999/22) by 1 October 1999

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.6078156+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C706152", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26721, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 19.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 19.0, "ID": 26721, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 29.0, "ContributionID": 706152, "EditedText": "No, but I would like to ask a point of clarification.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, but I would like to ask a point of clarification.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.6078156+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706160", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26721, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 19.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 19.0, "ID": 26721, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 45.0, "ContributionID": 706160, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.6078156+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706161", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Continental Tyres", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26722, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 46.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 46.0, "ID": 26722, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 47.0, "ContributionID": 706161, "EditedText": "The next item of business is the ministerial statement from Mr Henry McLeish on the proposed closure of the Continental Tyres factory at Newbridge. There will be questions at the end of the statement, so there should be no interventions during it. Members should note that we will move on to the next item of business at 3:10, so we have about 25 minutes for this particular item, should we need it.", "EditedTextHTML": "The next item of business is the ministerial statement from Mr Henry McLeish on the proposed closure of the Continental Tyres factory at Newbridge. There will be questions at the end of the statement, so there should be no interventions during it. Members should note that we will move on to the next item of business at 3:10, so we have about 25 minutes for this particular item, should we need it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.6078156+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1826E199P351C706167", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Continental Tyres", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26722, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 46.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 46.0, "ID": 26722, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Smith, Margaret", "ID": 1826, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Smith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Margaret Smith (Edinburgh West) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 60.0, "ContributionID": 706167, "EditedText": "As a local MSP, I want to record my sincere disappointment at Continental's announcement of these job losses. As well as the 774 jobs to be lost at the plant, the loss of other associated jobs will take the total to more than 1,000, which is obviously catastrophic not only for my constituency, but for neighbouring MSPs' constituencies and for the areas represented by list MSPs. I am involved on the action team and havelistened to Annabel Goldie's comments. The Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee and the Parliament must be kept in touch with what the action team is doing. I expect to have a mid- to long-term active involvement in the action team to secure a better future for the people at Continental. We share the concerns that have been raised about the work force, who have worked incredibly hard to keep their jobs. We owe it to those workers to do everything that we can to secure new jobs for them through retraining and access to education. I certainly intend to do that. The minister outlined some of the action team's positive work, but one of the things casting a cloud over that is that the company appears to be offering the work force worse redundancy terms than it has in the past. For example, when the company pulled out of Ireland in 1996, it offered the work force five weeks for every year of service. At the moment, my understanding is that Scottish workers are being offered three weeks for every year. What is the Executive doing to make the point that we believe that the work force at Newbridge should be given the best possible package? What powers do the Executive have to bring pressure to bear on Continental to make that a reality?", "EditedTextHTML": "As a local MSP, I want to record my sincere disappointment at Continental's announcement of these job losses. As well as the 774 jobs to be lost at the plant, the loss of other associated jobs will take the total to more than 1,000, which is obviously catastrophic not only for my constituency, but for neighbouring MSPs' constituencies and for the areas represented by list MSPs.

I am involved on the action team and have

listened to Annabel Goldie's comments. The Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee and the Parliament must be kept in touch with what the action team is doing. I expect to have a mid- to long-term active involvement in the action team to secure a better future for the people at Continental. We share the concerns that have been raised about the work force, who have worked incredibly hard to keep their jobs. We owe it to those workers to do everything that we can to secure new jobs for them through retraining and access to education. I certainly intend to do that.

The minister outlined some of the action team's positive work, but one of the things casting a cloud over that is that the company appears to be offering the work force worse redundancy terms than it has in the past. For example, when the company pulled out of Ireland in 1996, it offered the work force five weeks for every year of service. At the moment, my understanding is that Scottish workers are being offered three weeks for every year. What is the Executive doing to make the point that we believe that the work force at Newbridge should be given the best possible package? What powers do the Executive have to bring pressure to bear on Continental to make that a reality?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.6078156+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C706168", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Continental Tyres", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26722, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 46.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 46.0, "ID": 26722, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 62.0, "ContributionID": 706168, "EditedText": "I thank Mrs Margaret Smith, the local MSP, for her involvement and assistance. We have spoken a number of times and I know that Nicol Stephen has also been in touch. I think that the work force is grateful for her extensive interest in this major issue, which arose just after she was elected on May 6. It was no coincidence that when Nicol Stephen went to Germany the first and most important item was the redundancy package. It is not within the power of the Executive or this Parliament to deliver on redundancy packages. Different countries, for example, Germany and Ireland, have different labour laws. We are keen to reinforce the confidence of the work force and that is why Nicol Stephen and I met Harry Donaldson about an hour ago. We would not have put redundancy payments high on our agenda and we would not have mentioned them today if we did not sincerely believe that the work force at Newbridge deserve the very best. Many people there have given a great deal of their life to production at Newbridge and we still stand foursquare behind the objective highlighted by Mrs Margaret Smith. Reinforcing the point made by Annabel Goldie, I will also say that this action team must work. We must be optimistic and confident. If Margaret, or anyone on the action team, feels that there is something else that we can do I would like to hear about it because, certainly, we will want to respond.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank Mrs Margaret Smith, the local MSP, for her involvement and assistance. We have spoken a number of times and I know that Nicol Stephen has also been in touch. I think that the work force is grateful for her extensive interest in this major issue, which arose just after she was elected on May 6.

It was no coincidence that when Nicol Stephen went to Germany the first and most important item was the redundancy package. It is not within the power of the Executive or this Parliament to deliver on redundancy packages. Different countries, for example, Germany and Ireland, have different labour laws. We are keen to reinforce the confidence of the work force and that is why Nicol Stephen and I met Harry Donaldson about an hour ago. We would not have put redundancy payments high on our agenda and we would not have mentioned them today if we did not sincerely believe that the work force at Newbridge deserve the very best. Many people there have given a great deal of their life to production at Newbridge and we still stand foursquare behind the objective highlighted by Mrs Margaret Smith.

Reinforcing the point made by Annabel Goldie, I will also say that this action team must work. We must be optimistic and confident. If Margaret, or anyone on the action team, feels that there is something else that we can do I would like to hear about it because, certainly, we will want to respond.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.6078156+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1931E120P189C706169", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Continental Tyres", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26722, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 46.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 46.0, "ID": 26722, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Muldoon, Bristow", "ID": 1931, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Livingston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bristow Muldoon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bristow Muldoon (Livingston) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 64.0, "ContributionID": 706169, "EditedText": "Speaking as the member for one of the constituencies that neighbours Margaret Smith's constituency, I thank her for keeping me and other colleagues fully informed. The way that Margaret has operated is an example to other members, and I hope that others will adopt that practice in future. I want to record my concern for the staff and families, many of whom live in my constituency. What discussions has the minister or the Scottish Executive had with the unions that are representing the staff at Continental? What requests have the trade unions made of the Scottish Executive and how has it responded to those requests?", "EditedTextHTML": "Speaking as the member for one of the constituencies that neighbours Margaret Smith's constituency, I thank her for keeping me and other colleagues fully informed. The way that Margaret has operated is an example to other members, and I hope that others will adopt that practice in future. I want to record my concern for the staff and families, many of whom live in my constituency.

What discussions has the minister or the Scottish Executive had with the unions that are representing the staff at Continental? What requests have the trade unions made of the Scottish Executive and how has it responded to those requests?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.6078156+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C706170", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Continental Tyres", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26722, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 46.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 46.0, "ID": 26722, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 66.0, "ContributionID": 706170, "EditedText": "We have tried to keep our discussions as tidy as we can and that is why we have been concentrating on discussions with Harry Donaldson. I think that between us, on a dozen occasions, we met and discussed the situation in the plant and discussed what was happening in relation to the whole work force, both staff and employees. Briefly, in response, I will make two points. The redundancy package is crucial to the short-term well-being of many of the workers and families. There are also important skills in the plant which cover all elements of the work force and which I hope can be used to secure employment. We are working with everyone concerned. I am grateful for the contributions that have been made because it is a partnership approach now. That is one of the benefits of this exercise, and I hope that it can win success.", "EditedTextHTML": "We have tried to keep our discussions as tidy as we can and that is why we have been concentrating on discussions with Harry Donaldson. I think that between us, on a dozen occasions, we met and discussed the situation in the plant and discussed what was happening in relation to the whole work force, both staff and employees.

Briefly, in response, I will make two points. The redundancy package is crucial to the short-term well-being of many of the workers and families. There are also important skills in the plant which cover all elements of the work force and which I hope can be used to secure employment. We are working with everyone concerned. I am grateful for the contributions that have been made because it is a partnership approach now. That is one of the benefits of this exercise, and I hope that it can win success.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.6078156+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C706171", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Continental Tyres", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26722, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 46.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 46.0, "ID": 26722, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan (Glasgow) (SSP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 68.0, "ContributionID": 706171, "EditedText": "The minister ended his comments by saying that it is a partnership approach now. I will give a different perspective of this closure. The chamber should be united in grief at not only the loss of this manufacturing concern and the tragedy that it represents for the workers and their families—", "EditedTextHTML": "The minister ended his comments by saying that it is a partnership approach now. I will give a different perspective of this closure. The chamber should be united in grief at not only the loss of this manufacturing concern and the tragedy that it represents for the workers and their families—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.6078156+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C706175", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Continental Tyres", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26722, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 46.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 46.0, "ID": 26722, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 76.0, "ContributionID": 706175, "EditedText": "The offer that was made to the Irish workers in 1997 was for four—not five— weeks' redundancy pay for every year of employment. Only after the Irish Government intervened by going to the employment tribunal did Continental increase its offer. Will the minister assure me that the fullest provisions of the Scotland Act 1998, up to and including the removal of assets and machinery from Continental, will be enforced by the Parliament if the company is not prepared to offer a reasonable deal to the Scottish workers? Given the workers' performance and loyalty over a great number of years, that is what they deserve.", "EditedTextHTML": "The offer that was made to the Irish workers in 1997 was for four—not five— weeks' redundancy pay for every year of employment. Only after the Irish Government intervened by going to the employment tribunal did Continental increase its offer. Will the minister assure me that the fullest provisions of the Scotland Act 1998, up to and including the removal of assets and machinery from Continental, will be enforced by the Parliament if the company is not prepared to offer a reasonable deal to the Scottish workers? Given the workers' performance and loyalty over a great number of years, that is what they deserve.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.6078156+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706178", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Continental Tyres", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26722, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 46.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 46.0, "ID": 26722, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 82.0, "ContributionID": 706178, "EditedText": "Ms Hyslop, you must ask a question.", "EditedTextHTML": "Ms Hyslop, you must ask a question.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.6078156+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2152E53P75C706183", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Continental Tyres", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26722, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 46.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 46.0, "ID": 26722, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnston, Nick", "ID": 2152, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nick Johnston", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Johnston: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 92.0, "ContributionID": 706183, "EditedText": "Thank you, Sir David. I wish to make one or two points that could help Mr McLeish if he were to ask questions of his fellow ministers. Will Mr McLeish ask whether the planning process could be speeded up and streamlined to make the planners less obstructive to development in the area? Will he speak to the Civil Aviation Authority, which also has a great impact on employment in the area, as there is a tendency to limit the number of people who can be employed in the corridor leading west from Edinburgh airport? Is he aware that a planning application for leisure use of the 20-acre site opposite has been submitted? How does he envisage Continental's 60-acre site fitting into the plan for the area?", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you, Sir David. I wish to make one or two points that could help Mr McLeish if he were to ask questions of his fellow ministers.

Will Mr McLeish ask whether the planning process could be speeded up and streamlined to make the planners less obstructive to development in the area? Will he speak to the Civil Aviation Authority, which also has a great impact on employment in the area, as there is a tendency to limit the number of people who can be employed in the corridor leading west from Edinburgh airport? Is he aware that a planning application for leisure use of the 20-acre site opposite has been submitted? How does he envisage Continental's 60-acre site fitting into the plan for the area?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.6234468+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C706190", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 108.0, "ContributionID": 706190, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3577977+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C706196", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 120.0, "ContributionID": 706196, "EditedText": "Answer the question. The minister does not know the answer.", "EditedTextHTML": "Answer the question. The minister does not know the answer.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3577977+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C706197", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 122.0, "ContributionID": 706197, "EditedText": "The Government told the Scottish people that ill health was their fault.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Government told the Scottish people that ill health was their fault.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3577977+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C706199", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 126.0, "ContributionID": 706199, "EditedText": "We say that ill health is a responsibility for Government to address. Unlike the Conservatives, this Government is addressing it, and I challenge Conservative members to join us in doing that.", "EditedTextHTML": "We say that ill health is a responsibility for Government to address. Unlike the Conservatives, this Government is addressing it, and I challenge Conservative members to join us in doing that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3577977+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C706201", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 130.0, "ContributionID": 706201, "EditedText": "We will give the Conservatives a second chance. They did not do it in government; they can do it now. Across the Scottish Executive, we are taking action to make real improvements to people's lives through better job prospects, better housing and better education. We will work towards a sustainable environment and economic improvement. We will work in all those areas to achieve sustainable improvement in health. The white paper sets out the strategy for this approach: first, a concerted attack on health inequalities; secondly, focused measures to improve the health of children and young people; and thirdly, a series of major initiatives to prevent Scotland's big three killers—cancer, strokes and coronary heart disease, which together account for a quarter of all deaths. Within that framework, the white paper sets out detailed, practical proposals for action on seven priority areas: child health, coronary heart disease, cancer, dental and oral health, sexual health—in particular teenage pregnancies—mental health and accidents and safety. I ask for members' backing and involvement to prioritise these measures, based on the principles in the white paper and on the commitments that the Executive set out in the partnership agreement. The issue of public health cuts across party divides and geographical boundaries, but let us make no mistake: it is by no means a terrain devoid of controversy. If new politics means anything, it must be about our capacity to come together, address these difficult questions and come up with the brave, imaginative solutions that are needed to make a real impact. I wish to illustrate a few of the challenges that we face. Scotland has one of the highest rates of teenage pregnancy in western Europe. Last year, more than 9,000 girls in Scotland under the age of 20 became pregnant. More than 4,000 faced the trauma of termination. More than 2,000 cases of sexually transmitted infection were reported in young women aged between 15 and 19. We owe it to our young people to tackle this issue with determination and innovation and to match that with feeling, understanding and care.", "EditedTextHTML": "We will give the Conservatives a second chance. They did not do it in government; they can do it now.

Across the Scottish Executive, we are taking action to make real improvements to people's lives through better job prospects, better housing and better education. We will work towards a sustainable environment and economic improvement. We will work in all those areas to achieve sustainable improvement in health.

The white paper sets out the strategy for this approach: first, a concerted attack on health inequalities; secondly, focused measures to improve the health of children and young people; and thirdly, a series of major initiatives to prevent Scotland's big three killers—cancer, strokes and coronary heart disease, which together account for a quarter of all deaths.

Within that framework, the white paper sets out detailed, practical proposals for action on seven priority areas: child health, coronary heart disease, cancer, dental and oral health, sexual health—in particular teenage pregnancies—mental health and accidents and safety. I ask for members' backing and involvement to prioritise these measures, based on the principles in the white paper and on the commitments that the Executive set out in the partnership agreement.

The issue of public health cuts across party divides and geographical boundaries, but let us make no mistake: it is by no means a terrain devoid of controversy. If new politics means anything, it must be about our capacity to come together, address these difficult questions and come up with the brave, imaginative solutions that are needed to make a real impact.

I wish to illustrate a few of the challenges that we face. Scotland has one of the highest rates of teenage pregnancy in western Europe. Last year, more than 9,000 girls in Scotland under the age of 20 became pregnant. More than 4,000 faced the trauma of termination. More than 2,000 cases of sexually transmitted infection were reported in young women aged between 15 and 19. We owe it to our young people to tackle this issue with determination and innovation and to match that with feeling, understanding and care.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3577977+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1775E171P452C706202", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeod, Fiona", "ID": 1775, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona McLeod", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona McLeod (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 132.0, "ContributionID": 706202, "EditedText": "Can Ms Deacon explain how we will educate our young people about sexually transmitted diseases and teenage pregnancies when, in the next three years, the Health Education Board for Scotland budget will be frozen in real terms?", "EditedTextHTML": "Can Ms Deacon explain how we will educate our young people about sexually transmitted diseases and teenage pregnancies when, in the next three years, the Health Education Board for Scotland budget will be frozen in real terms?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3577977+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1775E171P452C706204", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeod, Fiona", "ID": 1775, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona McLeod", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona McLeod rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 136.0, "ContributionID": 706204, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3577977+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C706209", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 146.0, "ContributionID": 706209, "EditedText": "That was not quite such a brief intervention as I had hoped for. However, I was happy to join Dennis at Falkirk royal infirmary and was pleased that he was there to help me to pull the curtains off the wall while I was unveiling a plaque. It is for health boards to consider how best to deliver maternity services in their areas. However, I give Dennis Canavan an assurance—with a great deal of conviction and as the mother of a young child—that I want to ensure that throughout Scotland the best possible provision is made for maternity services in every health board area. I want local health boards to make that provision in a process of consultation with the local communities, so that they can come up with the solutions that are right for them. I shall say more about how we plan to implement our agenda, although I know that I have time today only to touch on a few strands of our plans. First, we must work across traditional boundaries, be they political, sectoral or departmental. I want to remove the bureaucratic barriers to action. I have asked officials in the health department to put our health priorities on a fast track, not just within that department but across a range of policies within the Scottish Executive. That will bring together those at the sharp end to ensure that the drive is in one direction for the benefit of the nation's health. We must also support those who are working together locally to improve health. The link between health boards and local authorities is central to this programme, and other organisations and agencies in the public, private, voluntary and community sectors will all have a role to play. I look forward to the Health and Community Care Committee's contribution to grasping the opportunities ahead. The committee has a key role to play in generating innovative and creative solutions and in engaging with a wide range of organisations in the development of ideas and proposals. A key element of how we get to work on delivering improvements will be our programme of health demonstration projects, which focuses on the health and well-being of children, the sexual health of young people, coronary heart disease and cancer. Some £15 million will be invested to put in place innovative solutions at a local level to provide test beds for action on which we can then build across Scotland. Another major element of our prevention measures is childhood immunisation. I am particularly pleased to confirm that I will shortly announce details of our new immunisation programme to tackle meningitis C for the benefit of children across Scotland. We will also shortly be making a series of new appointments, including national co-ordinators for diet and for health demonstration projects, and public health and health promotion professionals to the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities. As I said, we will work with the Health Education Board for Scotland and with local health board promotion units not only to build on their successes but to examine how we can maximise the impact of our health promotion activities and messages. We are also moving forward in our programme for the development of healthy living centres, aided by lottery funding. The centres will improve health and well-being, focusing in particular on those with the poorest health who are living in our most deprived communities. The list is by no means exhaustive, but I hope that it serves to demonstrate the commitment and sheer determination with which I, my deputy Iain Gray and the Scottish Executive intend to tackle public health and to improve the health of the people of Scotland. No one individual, organisation or political party has a monopoly of good ideas—the way in which this Parliament has been designed to operate is a recognition of that fact. I give members an assurance that the Executive will provide the vision, the values and the sheer determination to tackle the root causes of ill health and to lead the drive to improve the health of the Scottish people. I also ask each and every member in this, our new Scottish Parliament, to join us in that task. Together we can build a healthy Scotland. I move,That the Parliament agrees the key priority of promoting better health as outlined in the Partnership Agreement; endorses the principles of the White Paper ‘Towards a Healthier Scotland' as the foundation for action to improve the health of the people of Scotland, and calls upon the Scottish Executive to work in partnership with relevant organisations to implement measures to achieve this aim.", "EditedTextHTML": "That was not quite such a brief intervention as I had hoped for. However, I was happy to join Dennis at Falkirk royal infirmary and was pleased that he was there to help me to pull the curtains off the wall while I was unveiling a plaque.

It is for health boards to consider how best to deliver maternity services in their areas. However, I give Dennis Canavan an assurance—with a great deal of conviction and as the mother of a young child—that I want to ensure that throughout Scotland the best possible provision is made for maternity services in every health board area. I want local health boards to make that provision in a process of consultation with the local communities, so that they can come up with the solutions that are right for them.

I shall say more about how we plan to implement our agenda, although I know that I have time today only to touch on a few strands of our plans. First, we must work across traditional boundaries, be they political, sectoral or departmental. I want to remove the bureaucratic barriers to action. I have asked officials in the health department to put our health priorities on a fast track, not just within that department but across a range of policies within the Scottish Executive. That will bring together those at the sharp end to ensure that the drive is in one direction for the benefit of the nation's health.

We must also support those who are working together locally to improve health. The link between health boards and local authorities is central to this programme, and other organisations and agencies in the public, private, voluntary and community sectors will all have a role to play.

I look forward to the Health and Community Care Committee's contribution to grasping the opportunities ahead. The committee has a key role to play in generating innovative and creative solutions and in engaging with a wide range of organisations in the development of ideas and proposals.

A key element of how we get to work on delivering improvements will be our programme of health demonstration projects, which focuses on the health and well-being of children, the sexual health of young people, coronary heart disease and cancer. Some £15 million will be invested to put in place innovative solutions at a local level to provide test beds for action on which we can then build across Scotland.

Another major element of our prevention measures is childhood immunisation. I am particularly pleased to confirm that I will shortly announce details of our new immunisation programme to tackle meningitis C for the benefit of children across Scotland.

We will also shortly be making a series of new appointments, including national co-ordinators for diet and for health demonstration projects, and public health and health promotion professionals to the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities.

As I said, we will work with the Health Education Board for Scotland and with local health board promotion units not only to build on their successes but to examine how we can maximise the impact of our health promotion activities and messages. We are also moving forward in our programme for the development of healthy living centres, aided by lottery funding. The centres will improve health and well-being, focusing in particular on those with the poorest health who are living in our most deprived communities.

The list is by no means exhaustive, but I hope that it serves to demonstrate the commitment and sheer determination with which I, my deputy Iain Gray and the Scottish Executive intend to tackle public health and to improve the health of the people of Scotland.

No one individual, organisation or political party has a monopoly of good ideas—the way in which this Parliament has been designed to operate is a recognition of that fact. I give members an assurance that the Executive will provide the vision, the values and the sheer determination to tackle the root causes of ill health and to lead the drive to improve the health of the Scottish people. I also ask each and every member in this, our new Scottish Parliament, to join us in that task. Together we can build a healthy Scotland.

I move,

That the Parliament agrees the key priority of promoting better health as outlined in the Partnership Agreement; endorses the principles of the White Paper ‘Towards a Healthier Scotland' as the foundation for action to improve

the health of the people of Scotland, and calls upon the Scottish Executive to work in partnership with relevant organisations to implement measures to achieve this aim.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3577977+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706210", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 148.0, "ContributionID": 706210, "EditedText": "Before I call the Conservative and SNP spokespersons, who will have eight minutes each, I should say that the debate open to the floor will be time-limited to four minutes per speaker. I call Mary Scanlon to move amendment S1M-105.1.", "EditedTextHTML": "Before I call the Conservative and SNP spokespersons, who will have eight minutes each, I should say that the debate open to the floor will be time-limited to four minutes per speaker. I call Mary Scanlon to move amendment S1M-105.1.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3577977+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C706221", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie (Lothians) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 172.0, "ContributionID": 706221, "EditedText": "may I remind the member, in case she is suffering from forgetfulness, that she is part of the Opposition and that we are meant to be debating the Government's proposals on public health? We have no objection to defending our record in government, as Mr Gallie did robustly in his comments to the minister, and if Mrs Ullrich wants to rerun the election campaign we will happily do so privately.", "EditedTextHTML": "may I remind the member, in case she is suffering from forgetfulness, that she is part of the Opposition and that we are meant to be debating the Government's proposals on public health? We have no objection to defending our record in government, as Mr Gallie did robustly in his comments to the minister, and if Mrs Ullrich wants to rerun the election campaign we will happily do so privately.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3577977+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C706223", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 176.0, "ContributionID": 706223, "EditedText": "Will Mrs Ullrich get on with the job of being part of an effective Opposition in this Parliament?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mrs Ullrich get on with the job of being part of an effective Opposition in this Parliament?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3577977+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1826E199P351C706232", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Smith, Margaret", "ID": 1826, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Smith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Smith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 195.0, "ContributionID": 706232, "EditedText": "There are a number of other issues, such as smoking, which kills 13,000 Scots every year. They are not statistics; they are mums and dads, sons and daughters. We must examine those issues. Addiction, dental health, smoking, food safety and fluoridation will be filling our agenda in the coming months. I look forward to working with people of all parties, with the minister and with people in health and community care throughout Scotland to ensure that we deliver a healthier Scotland and a sustainable and excellent public health care agenda.", "EditedTextHTML": "There are a number of other issues, such as smoking, which kills 13,000 Scots every year. They are not statistics; they are mums and dads, sons and daughters. We must examine those issues. Addiction, dental health, smoking, food safety and fluoridation will be filling our agenda in the coming months. I look forward to working with people of all parties, with the minister and with people in health and community care throughout Scotland to ensure that we deliver a healthier Scotland and a sustainable and excellent public health care agenda.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3577977+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2123E103P242C706233", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Chisholm, Malcolm", "ID": 2123, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh North and Leith" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Malcolm Chisholm", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 198.0, "ContributionID": 706233, "EditedText": "If anybody outside—or indeed inside—the Parliament does not have time to read \"Towards a Healthier Scotland\", I suggest they look at the jigsaw on the front. That symbol embodies the new holistic approach to health, which sees that life circumstances issues such as housing, income, employment and the environment are just as relevant to health as traditional lifestyle issues such as diet and smoking, which are, of course, often related to the life circumstances issues. If people have time to read only one word of the document, I suggest that they highlight the word inequalities, because that is the main theme of the document and it must be our main objective in health policy; we must address the scandalous inequalities of health in Scottish society, which are related to income. hope that when we do health impact assessments on all policy we will address in particular the effects of all policies on health inequalities. I also hope that, as this Parliament goes on, we will work out targets for reducing health inequalities, because there could be no more fitting monument to the first session of this Parliament than the achievement of a significant reduction in health inequalities in Scotland. I welcome Kay Ullrich's speech and the consensual approach that she adopted, but I very much disagree with Phil Gallie and Mary Scanlon. Health inequalities widened considerably under the previous Government; we can have debates— as Phil Gallie wanted—about the level of health expenditure, but that widening is the simple reality. The standard mortality ratio for someone in the poorest community in 1981 was 120 per cent of that of someone in the most affluent communities; by 1991 that had grown to 162 per cent. Mortality is not the only indicator. Only last week, I read a report about mental health in Glasgow that showed clearly that there were far more mental health issues in deprived areas, showing that mental health, too, is related to poverty and life circumstances.", "EditedTextHTML": "If anybody outside—or indeed inside—the Parliament does not have time to read \"Towards a Healthier Scotland\", I suggest they look at the jigsaw on the front. That symbol embodies the new holistic approach to health, which sees that life circumstances issues such as housing, income, employment and the environment are just as relevant to health as traditional lifestyle issues such as diet and smoking, which are, of course, often related to the life circumstances issues.

If people have time to read only one word of the document, I suggest that they highlight the word inequalities, because that is the main theme of the document and it must be our main objective in health policy; we must address the scandalous inequalities of health in Scottish society, which are related to income. hope that when we do health impact assessments on all policy we will address in particular the effects of all policies on health inequalities. I also hope that, as this Parliament goes on, we will work out targets for reducing health inequalities, because there could be no more fitting monument to the first session of this Parliament than the achievement of a significant reduction in health inequalities in Scotland.

I welcome Kay Ullrich's speech and the consensual approach that she adopted, but I very much disagree with Phil Gallie and Mary Scanlon. Health inequalities widened considerably under the previous Government; we can have debates— as Phil Gallie wanted—about the level of health expenditure, but that widening is the simple reality. The standard mortality ratio for someone in the poorest community in 1981 was 120 per cent of that of someone in the most affluent communities; by 1991 that had grown to 162 per cent.

Mortality is not the only indicator. Only last week, I read a report about mental health in Glasgow that showed clearly that there were far more mental health issues in deprived areas, showing that mental health, too, is related to poverty and life circumstances.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3577977+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1970E66P288C706242", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNulty, Des", "ID": 1970, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Clydebank and Milngavie" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Des McNulty", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Des McNulty: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 219.0, "ContributionID": 706242, "EditedText": "I ask the minister not only to work through official channels—the department that she oversees, health boards and trusts—but to spread the agenda more widely. People must be encouraged to be more directly involved in improving their health. The statement that the minister made today, which mentioned £15 million for demonstration projects, the encouragement that has been given to people through the new opportunities fund and the bringing forward of proposals for healthy living centres are all positive steps. Let us, however, be clear that we are not engaged in a short-term sprint. This is a long haul and what we need is the consistency, firmness and determination to succeed over the next 15 years. I hope that we can go forward together in this Parliament to play our part.", "EditedTextHTML": "I ask the minister not only to work through official channels—the department that she oversees, health boards and trusts—but to spread the agenda more widely. People must be encouraged to be more directly involved in improving their health. The statement that the minister made today, which mentioned £15 million for demonstration projects, the encouragement that has been given to people through the new opportunities fund and the bringing forward of proposals for healthy living centres are all positive steps. Let us, however, be clear that we are not engaged in a short-term sprint. This is a long haul and what we need is the consistency, firmness and determination to succeed over the next 15 years. I hope that we can go forward together in this Parliament to play our part.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3577977+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2185E120P328C706244", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Brown, Robert", "ID": 2185, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robert Brown", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robert Brown (Glasgow) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 225.0, "ContributionID": 706244, "EditedText": "The two things that we should take away from this excellent debate were encapsulated in Des McNulty's remarks about the need for building on examples of good practice and for thinking long term. This is a subject where it is easy to talk about quick fixes or about what will be necessary for the next 12 months. The white paper, as refocused by the partnership agreement, concentrates on the underlying causes of ill health and on the importance of health promotion and of locally based health initiatives. I welcome the minister's approach in involving the whole chamber, the whole Parliament and the whole of Scotland in tackling health. That approach has been welcomed by the whole chamber, with the possible exception of the remnants of the ideologically driven Conservative group on our far right. The Liberal Democrats are keen to pursue the aspects of the partnership programme that link health to housing. If the warm deal and healthy homes initiatives could help to rid Scotland of the scourge of damp, cold houses which some members have mentioned, that would be a major achievement for the Executive and the Parliament and a major contribution to good health. It is entirely uninspiring that, on the eve of the 21st century, far more people in Scotland live in such accommodation with its associated health and morale problems.", "EditedTextHTML": "The two things that we should take away from this excellent debate were encapsulated in Des McNulty's remarks about the need for building on examples of good practice and for thinking long term. This is a subject where it is easy to talk about quick fixes or about what will be necessary for the next 12 months.

The white paper, as refocused by the partnership agreement, concentrates on the underlying causes of ill health and on the importance of health promotion and of locally based health initiatives. I welcome the minister's approach in involving the whole chamber, the whole Parliament and the whole of Scotland in tackling health. That approach has been welcomed by the whole chamber, with the possible exception of the remnants of the ideologically driven Conservative group on our far right.

The Liberal Democrats are keen to pursue the aspects of the partnership programme that link health to housing. If the warm deal and healthy homes initiatives could help to rid Scotland of the scourge of damp, cold houses which some members have mentioned, that would be a major achievement for the Executive and the Parliament and a major contribution to good health. It is entirely uninspiring that, on the eve of the 21st century, far more people in Scotland live in such accommodation with its associated health and morale problems.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3577977+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2188E70P92C706249", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harper, Robin", "ID": 2188, "PartyName": "Scottish Green Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Green", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robin Harper", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robin Harper: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 236.0, "ContributionID": 706249, "EditedText": "No—sorry, Phil.", "EditedTextHTML": "No—sorry, Phil.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3577977+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C706250", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 238.0, "ContributionID": 706250, "EditedText": "I had a helpful comment.", "EditedTextHTML": "I had a helpful comment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3577977+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2188E70P92C706251", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harper, Robin", "ID": 2188, "PartyName": "Scottish Green Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Green", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robin Harper", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robin Harper: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 240.0, "ContributionID": 706251, "EditedText": "There are two additional points. First, the UK made commitments at Kyoto to reduce CO2. If we reduce the amount of fuel that is used in housing, which makes a considerable contribution to CO2, that will help us to meet our CO2 commitments made at Kyoto and we will also reduce pollution generally.", "EditedTextHTML": "There are two additional points. First, the UK made commitments at Kyoto to reduce CO2. If we reduce the amount of fuel that is used in housing, which makes a considerable contribution to CO2, that will help us to meet our CO2 commitments made at Kyoto and we will also reduce pollution generally.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3577977+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C706254", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 246.0, "ContributionID": 706254, "EditedText": "Mr Alex Fergusson will speak next and I ask him to keep it brief.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Alex Fergusson will speak next and I ask him to keep it brief.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3577977+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C706257", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Monteith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 254.0, "ContributionID": 706257, "EditedText": "Is it not the case that, over the years, smoking has generally declined, while the number of cars and motor vehicles has increased? Does Dr Simpson accept that that increase outweighs passive smoking by far as a contributing factor to the growth of asthma?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is it not the case that, over the years, smoking has generally declined, while the number of cars and motor vehicles has increased? Does Dr Simpson accept that that increase outweighs passive smoking by far as a contributing factor to the growth of asthma?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3577977+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C706272", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 287.0, "ContributionID": 706272, "EditedText": "Give way.", "EditedTextHTML": "Give way.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3577977+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2033E106P139C706273", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gray, Iain", "ID": 2033, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Pentlands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Iain Gray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Iain Gray: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 289.0, "ContributionID": 706273, "EditedText": "No", "EditedTextHTML": "No

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C706276", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 295.0, "ContributionID": 706276, "EditedText": "On a point of order.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706277", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 297.0, "ContributionID": 706277, "EditedText": "A genuine one?", "EditedTextHTML": "A genuine one?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706284", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Lead Committees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26724, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 307.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 307.0, "ID": 26724, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 310.0, "ContributionID": 706284, "EditedText": "The Rural Affairs Committee to consider The Plant Health (Amendment) (Scotland) Order 1999 (SSI 1999/22);", "EditedTextHTML": "The Rural Affairs Committee to consider The Plant Health (Amendment) (Scotland) Order 1999 (SSI 1999/22);

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706287", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26725, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 312.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 312.0, "ID": 26725, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 316.0, "ContributionID": 706287, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706288", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26725, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 312.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 312.0, "ID": 26725, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 318.0, "ContributionID": 706288, "EditedText": "There will be a division.", "EditedTextHTML": "There will be a division.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706289", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26725, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 312.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 312.0, "ID": 26725, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 320.0, "ContributionID": 706289, "EditedText": "FOR Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)AGAINST Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) SNP Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) SNP Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab) Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)Mackay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)MacLean, Kate ((Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD) Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)

AGAINST

Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) SNP Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)

Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)

Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)

Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)

Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)

Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) SNP Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)

Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)

Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)

Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)

Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)

Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)

Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)

Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)

Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)

Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)

Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)

Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)

Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)

Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)

Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)

Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)

Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)

Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)

Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)

Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)

Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)

Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)

Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)

Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)

Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)

Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)

Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)

Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)

Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab) Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)

Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)

Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)

Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)

Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)

Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)

MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)

Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)

Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)

Mackay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)

MacLean, Kate ((Dundee West) (Lab)

Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)

Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)

Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)

McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)

McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)

McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)

McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)

McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)

McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)

McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)

McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)

McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)

McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)

Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)

Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)

Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)

Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)

Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)

Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)

Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)

Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)

Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)

Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)

Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)

Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)

Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)

Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)

Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)

Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD) Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)

Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)

Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)

Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)

Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)

Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)

Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)

Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)

Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)

Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)

Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)

Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)

Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)

Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)

White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)

Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)

Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706292", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26725, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 312.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 312.0, "ID": 26725, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 324.0, "ContributionID": 706292, "EditedText": "The second question is, that motion S1M-105, in the name of Susan Deacon, be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "The second question is, that motion S1M-105, in the name of Susan

Deacon, be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706294", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26725, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 312.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 312.0, "ID": 26725, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 327.0, "ContributionID": 706294, "EditedText": "That the Parliament agrees the key priority of promoting better health as outlined in the Partnership Agreement; endorses the principles of the White Paper ‘Towards a Healthier Scotland' as the foundation for action to improve the health of the people of Scotland, and calls upon the Scottish Executive to work in partnership with relevant organisations to implement measures to achieve this aim.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament agrees the key priority of promoting better health as outlined in the Partnership Agreement; endorses the principles of the White Paper ‘Towards a Healthier Scotland' as the foundation for action to improve the health of the people of Scotland, and calls upon the Scottish Executive to work in partnership with relevant organisations to implement measures to achieve this aim.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706304", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Cowal", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26726, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 334.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 334.0, "ID": 26726, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 342.0, "ContributionID": 706304, "EditedText": "You have 10 minutes.", "EditedTextHTML": "You have 10 minutes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C706306", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Cowal", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26726, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 334.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 334.0, "ID": 26726, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 346.0, "ContributionID": 706306, "EditedText": "Mr Hamilton paints a worrying picture, but I recognise and identify with it. The SNP's policy is to get rid of nuclear weapons from the Holy loch and the area. If that were to happen, does he agree that the economy of Cowal and the surrounding area would become much worse?", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Hamilton paints a worrying picture, but I recognise

and identify with it. The SNP's policy is to get rid of nuclear weapons from the Holy loch and the area. If that were to happen, does he agree that the economy of Cowal and the surrounding area would become much worse?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1985E207P501C706307", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Cowal", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26726, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 334.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 334.0, "ID": 26726, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hamilton, Mr Duncan", "ID": 1985, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Hamilton: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 348.0, "ContributionID": 706307, "EditedText": "We seem to be suffering from a time warp.", "EditedTextHTML": "We seem to be suffering from a time warp.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C706317", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Cowal", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26726, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 334.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 334.0, "ID": 26726, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 371.0, "ContributionID": 706317, "EditedText": "I have only three minutes, Duncan, so if you do not mind I will not give way. As Jamie rightly pointed out, there is the prospect of a marina development in Cowal, so some momentum is lifting the economy from the dark days when the Holy loch base closed down and unemployment rose to 834.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have only three minutes, Duncan, so if you do not mind I will not give way.

As Jamie rightly pointed out, there is the prospect of a marina development in Cowal, so some momentum is lifting the economy from the dark days when the Holy loch base closed down and unemployment rose to 834.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1840E82P158C706313", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Cowal", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26726, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 334.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 334.0, "ID": 26726, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macmillan, Maureen", "ID": 1840, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Maureen Macmillan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Maureen Macmillan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 361.0, "ContributionID": 706313, "EditedText": "Mr Hamilton has spoken quite a lot; it is my turn to speak now. At the heart of the debate about Cowal is a crisis of self-confidence. This sort of crisis has happened in the Highlands time and again—we need only think of Corpach, Invergordon, Machrihanish and Benbecula. When a large employer leaves an area, that causes a crisis of self-confidence. People are afraid that things will go into total decline. However, there have been new initiatives. From discussions with Argyll and Bute Council, I know that telephone service centres have invested in the area and that the swimming pool has been redeveloped. However, such initiatives might not generate the self-confidence that is necessary for an area to pull itself up. A commitment by Caledonian MacBrayne to retain the service from Dunoon to Gourock would help to restore confidence in the area, as would the refurbishment of the pier. We await that announcement with great anticipation. There are fears about the cost and frequency of the remaining service should Caledonian MacBrayne withdraw. As Duncan said, Caledonian MacBrayne sails to the centre of Dunoon and takes passengers back and forward across the Clyde. I know Dunoon well and I know how essential the ferry is to the town; my mother came from Dunoon and used the ferry every day to go to school in Greenock. The loss of the ferry would have a profound effect on the economy of the town. I believe that the link across the Clyde is essential, no matter what the outcome of the ferry plan is. I hope that Argyll and Bute Council and Argyll and the Islands Enterprise make a strong bid for European structural funds. I think that that is the way forward. In the European Committee yesterday, we talked about the importance of infrastructure and how, if infrastructure projects were to be funded by the structural funds, we would have to show that economic good would come out of them. I said that I wanted substantial improvements in the infrastructure of the Highlands and that we had to link that to economic development. The people of Cowal have to keep up their campaign—it is important to show that they have a fighting spirit—but, more important, they have to have plans and ideas about how they would maximise the benefits of a refurbished pier. They cannot simply say that they want the pier refurbished; they must have plans about the expansion of industry, commerce and tourism. That is the way in which they can maximise their chances of getting funding for the project.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Hamilton has spoken quite a lot; it is my turn to speak now.

At the heart of the debate about Cowal is a crisis of self-confidence. This sort of crisis has happened in the Highlands time and again—we need only think of Corpach, Invergordon, Machrihanish and Benbecula. When a large employer leaves an area, that causes a crisis of self-confidence. People are afraid that things will go into total decline. However, there have been new initiatives.

From discussions with Argyll and Bute Council, I know that telephone service centres have invested in the area and that the swimming pool has been redeveloped. However, such initiatives might not generate the self-confidence that is necessary for an area to pull itself up.

A commitment by Caledonian MacBrayne to retain the service from Dunoon to Gourock would help to restore confidence in the area, as would the refurbishment of the pier. We await that announcement with great anticipation. There are fears about the cost and frequency of the remaining service should Caledonian MacBrayne withdraw. As Duncan said, Caledonian MacBrayne sails to the centre of Dunoon and takes passengers back and forward across the Clyde. I know Dunoon well and I know how essential the ferry is to the town; my mother came from Dunoon and used the ferry every day to go to school in Greenock. The loss of the ferry would have a profound effect on the economy of the town. I believe that the link across the Clyde is essential, no matter what the outcome of the ferry plan is.

I hope that Argyll and Bute Council and Argyll and the Islands Enterprise make a strong bid for European structural funds. I think that that is the way forward. In the European Committee yesterday, we talked about the importance of infrastructure and how, if infrastructure projects were to be funded by the structural funds, we would have to show that economic good would come out of them. I said that I wanted substantial improvements in the infrastructure of the Highlands and that we had to link that to economic development.

The people of Cowal have to keep up their campaign—it is important to show that they have a fighting spirit—but, more important, they have to have plans and ideas about how they would maximise the benefits of a refurbished pier. They cannot simply say that they want the pier refurbished; they must have plans about the expansion of industry, commerce and tourism. That is the way in which they can maximise their chances of getting funding for the project.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1889E118P162C706323", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Cowal", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26726, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 334.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 334.0, "ID": 26726, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morrison, Mr Alasdair", "ID": 1889, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Western Isles" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morrison", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Highlands and Islands and Gaelic (Mr Alasdair Morrison): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 385.0, "ContributionID": 706323, "EditedText": "I have a minute and a half to respond, which is hardly adequate. I will certainly take up Mike's kind invitation to visit him in his house. The motion talks about a crisis. It is important to stress that the claim that there is a crisis is not supported by facts. As George said, I was delighted to visit the Cowal peninsula this week. Inward investment has been talked about. The main purpose of the visit was to announce that Government support, which we are providing through the enterprise network, will create another 32 information technology jobs in one of Argyll's most prominent companies, Database Direct. That will boost the total work force at the company to around 120. As an islander, I appreciate how important communications, particularly ferry services, are for any community that relies on them. There can be no doubt that Dunoon's prospects are closely linked to the frequency and accessibility of the ferry services that connect it with the other side of the Clyde. As an islander, I am also well aware of the importance of good connections to remote areas. My visit to Dunoon and the Cowal peninsula yesterday heightened my awareness of the importance of ferry services to the area.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have a minute and a half to respond, which is

hardly adequate. I will certainly take up Mike's kind invitation to visit him in his house.

The motion talks about a crisis. It is important to stress that the claim that there is a crisis is not supported by facts. As George said, I was delighted to visit the Cowal peninsula this week. Inward investment has been talked about. The main purpose of the visit was to announce that Government support, which we are providing through the enterprise network, will create another 32 information technology jobs in one of Argyll's most prominent companies, Database Direct. That will boost the total work force at the company to around 120.

As an islander, I appreciate how important communications, particularly ferry services, are for any community that relies on them. There can be no doubt that Dunoon's prospects are closely linked to the frequency and accessibility of the ferry services that connect it with the other side of the Clyde.

As an islander, I am also well aware of the importance of good connections to remote areas. My visit to Dunoon and the Cowal peninsula yesterday heightened my awareness of the importance of ferry services to the area.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706326", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Cowal", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26726, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 334.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 334.0, "ID": 26726, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 391.0, "ContributionID": 706326, "EditedText": "Meeting closed at 17:32", "EditedTextHTML": "Meeting closed at 17:32

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706188", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 103.0, "ContributionID": 706188, "EditedText": "The next item of business is the debate on motion S1M-105 in the name of Susan Deacon, on the promotion of public health, and an amendment to that motion in the name of Mary Scanlon. Members who wish to speak in this debate might care to press their buttons now.", "EditedTextHTML": "The next item of business is the debate on motion S1M-105 in the name of Susan Deacon, on the promotion of public health, and an amendment to that motion in the name of Mary Scanlon. Members who wish to speak in this debate might care to press their buttons now.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3577977+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C706189", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 106.0, "ContributionID": 706189, "EditedText": "Thank you, Presiding Officer. Just under two years ago, the Scottish people voted overwhelmingly for this, their first ever democratically elected Scottish Parliament, a Parliament that they wanted to deliver a better quality of life and better opportunities for the people of Scotland—in short, a Parliament that would make a difference. The 129 members of this Parliament now have a historic opportunity and, I would argue, a responsibility to realise these aspirations and to use the powers vested in us to make a real improvement to the lives of those we represent. Nowhere can we better demonstrate our willingness and our capacity to do that than in the fight to improve the health of the Scottish people. That is why today, on this the first day of our first full parliamentary session, I ask members to avoid the distractions and to unite with me to signal our determination to tackle the root causes of ill health in our country and to work together to build a healthier Scotland. Good health is not just about having a good health service. Of course we must constantly work to improve the NHS—we are doing that—but a healthy Scotland does not just cure ill health, it prevents it from happening in the first place. For too long, Scotland has been branded the sick man of Europe. We now have a chance to change that. In February, Donald Dewar, in his previous incarnation as Secretary of State for Scotland, joined other Scottish Office ministers in setting out the white paper, \"Towards a Healthier Scotland\". It was the product of widespread consultation. It built a consensus around a comprehensive strategy for improving the health of the Scottish people. The task now falls to us to translate the ideas of that white paper into action. Today I ask members of the Scottish Parliament, wherever they sit in this chamber, to endorse the principles set out in the white paper and to give their backing to me and to the Scottish Executive to take forward its implementation. This is not a single issue with a single policy solution or one quick-fix remedy. No one piece of legislation or one investment will make a difference. We need a comprehensive, cross-cutting approach that reaches deep into our policies and practices and into our culture and attitudes. The white paper sets out a shared vision of a healthier Scotland. It recognises that good health is about more than not being ill. It recognises that we can tackle ill health only through a sustained attack on inequality, social exclusion and poverty, and that we need to address questions of lifestyle and of life circumstances. Let me remind members that for 18 long years in this country we had a Government that refused to recognise that ill health was linked to poverty. We recognise that connection and we are prepared to act on it.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you, Presiding Officer. Just under two years ago, the Scottish people voted overwhelmingly for this, their first ever democratically elected Scottish Parliament, a Parliament that they wanted to deliver a better quality of life and better opportunities for the people of Scotland—in short, a Parliament that would make a difference.

The 129 members of this Parliament now have a historic opportunity and, I would argue, a responsibility to realise these aspirations and to use the powers vested in us to make a real improvement to the lives of those we represent. Nowhere can we better demonstrate our willingness and our capacity to do that than in the fight to improve the health of the Scottish people. That is why today, on this the first day of our first full parliamentary session, I ask members to avoid the distractions and to unite with me to signal our determination to tackle the root causes of ill health in our country and to work together to build a healthier Scotland.

Good health is not just about having a good health service. Of course we must constantly work to improve the NHS—we are doing that—but a healthy Scotland does not just cure ill health, it prevents it from happening in the first place. For too long, Scotland has been branded the sick man of Europe. We now have a chance to change that.

In February, Donald Dewar, in his previous incarnation as Secretary of State for Scotland, joined other Scottish Office ministers in setting out the white paper, \"Towards a Healthier Scotland\". It was the product of widespread consultation. It built a consensus around a comprehensive strategy for improving the health of the Scottish people. The task now falls to us to translate the ideas of that white paper into action. Today I ask members of the Scottish Parliament, wherever they sit in this chamber, to endorse the principles set out in the white paper and to give their backing to me and to the Scottish Executive to take forward its implementation.

This is not a single issue with a single policy solution or one quick-fix remedy. No one piece of legislation or one investment will make a difference. We need a comprehensive, cross-cutting approach that reaches deep into our policies and practices and into our culture and attitudes. The white paper sets out a shared vision of a healthier Scotland. It recognises that good health is about more than not being ill. It recognises that we can tackle ill health only through a sustained attack on inequality, social exclusion and poverty, and that we need to address questions of lifestyle and of life circumstances.

Let me remind members that for 18 long years in this country we had a Government that refused to recognise that ill health was linked to poverty. We recognise that connection and we are prepared to act on it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3577977+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C706194", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 116.0, "ContributionID": 706194, "EditedText": "Answer the question.", "EditedTextHTML": "Answer the question.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3577977+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C706195", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 118.0, "ContributionID": 706195, "EditedText": "For 18 years we saw the Government point the finger at the Scottish people.", "EditedTextHTML": "For 18 years we saw the Government point the finger at the Scottish people.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3577977+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C706203", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 134.0, "ContributionID": 706203, "EditedText": "The emphasis that has been put on sex education shows its importance. I will say more about that in a minute. We are investing additional money in health promotion activities across the board. As I will mention in a moment, that is building on the work that HEBS is doing and also—crucially—on the work that local health promotion units are doing in health boards. I remind members that the health service and local health boards are experiencing record levels of growth. That is an important backdrop to our policies. If I may return to the general point—", "EditedTextHTML": "The emphasis that has been put on sex education shows its importance. I will say more about that in a minute.

We are investing additional money in health promotion activities across the board. As I will mention in a moment, that is building on the work that HEBS is doing and also—crucially—on the work that local health promotion units are doing in health boards. I remind members that the health service and local health boards are experiencing record levels of growth. That is an important backdrop to our policies.

If I may return to the general point—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3577977+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C706205", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 138.0, "ContributionID": 706205, "EditedText": "I would like to cover some other points and will not take another intervention at this stage. I know that contraception and sex education are sensitive issues, and that people have deeply held opinions on such questions, but if we are to make a difference we have to be mature enough, as politicians and as a country, to discuss them openly and honestly. Despite many attempts to improve oral hygiene, our children still have an appalling record of tooth decay. The pain, distress and disfigurement are real. In Glasgow, for example, the most common reason for children under 10 being given a general anaesthetic is tooth extraction. The poorest 10 per cent of children in Scotland suffer 50 per cent of the dental decay. That is unacceptable. A generation has passed by since Scotland last addressed the question of the fluoridation of public water supplies. We owe it to the Scottish people and to our children to reopen that debate in a spirit of open consultation that is based on the facts. Smoking is a similar issue. We all agree that a reduction in smoking and passive smoking will reduce the incidence of coronary heart disease, lung cancer and strokes. Let us be straight: no other single lifestyle change could do more to improve our health as a nation, but how far do we want to go? How do we best reduce the risk and provide support both for smokers and nonsmokers? I may not agree with everything that Mr Henry, the member for Paisley South, has had to say about smoking but I applaud him for having brought the debate into the public domain. If we are going to make a real impact on the health of the people of Scotland, that must start right at the beginning: not at birth, but before it. How should we support pregnant women— particularly those in our most deprived communities—and help them to eat better, drink less and stop smoking? All those factors have a direct impact on the health of a baby, continuing into childhood and adulthood. What else can we do to improve the nourishment of our children and babies? We know that breast-feeding is best for the health of babies and mothers, but the incidence of breast-feeding in Scotland is still among the lowest in Europe. How can we change the culture of our society? How can we help mothers to take up and to continue breast-feeding, should they choose to do so, during those early months? One thing is certain: no one Government diktat or pronouncement will make a difference. We must work together to raise awareness and to foster a change in cultures and attitudes.", "EditedTextHTML": "I would like to cover some other points and will not take another intervention at this stage.

I know that contraception and sex education are sensitive issues, and that people have deeply held opinions on such questions, but if we are to make a difference we have to be mature enough, as politicians and as a country, to discuss them openly and honestly.

Despite many attempts to improve oral hygiene, our children still have an appalling record of tooth decay. The pain, distress and disfigurement are real. In Glasgow, for example, the most common reason for children under 10 being given a general anaesthetic is tooth extraction. The poorest 10 per cent of children in Scotland suffer 50 per cent of the dental decay. That is unacceptable. A generation has passed by since Scotland last addressed the question of the fluoridation of public water supplies. We owe it to the Scottish people and to our children to reopen that debate in a spirit of open consultation that is based on the facts.

Smoking is a similar issue. We all agree that a reduction in smoking and passive smoking will reduce the incidence of coronary heart disease, lung cancer and strokes. Let us be straight: no other single lifestyle change could do more to improve our health as a nation, but how far do we want to go? How do we best reduce the risk and provide support both for smokers and nonsmokers? I may not agree with everything that Mr Henry, the member for Paisley South, has had to say about smoking but I applaud him for having brought the debate into the public domain.

If we are going to make a real impact on the health of the people of Scotland, that must start right at the beginning: not at birth, but before it. How should we support pregnant women— particularly those in our most deprived communities—and help them to eat better, drink less and stop smoking? All those factors have a direct impact on the health of a baby, continuing into childhood and adulthood.

What else can we do to improve the nourishment of our children and babies? We know that breast-feeding is best for the health of babies and mothers, but the incidence of breast-feeding in Scotland is still among the lowest in Europe. How can we change the culture of our society? How can we help mothers to take up and to continue breast-feeding, should they choose to do so, during those early months? One thing is certain: no one Government diktat or pronouncement will make a difference. We must work together to raise awareness and to foster a change in cultures and attitudes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3577977+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C706206", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan (Falkirk West): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 140.0, "ContributionID": 706206, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3577977+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C706207", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 142.0, "ContributionID": 706207, "EditedText": "I would like to finish my speech. However, I shall accept a very brief intervention.", "EditedTextHTML": "I would like to finish my speech. However, I shall accept a very brief intervention.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3577977+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C706208", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 144.0, "ContributionID": 706208, "EditedText": "A few weeks ago, the minister visited Falkirk royal infirmary. I am grateful for the fact that she notified me so that I could accompany her on her visit—a courtesy that the First Minister and some of his ministerial colleagues unfortunately do not follow. The minister may be aware that, since her visit, there has been concern in the Falkirk area about suggestions—and I put it no stronger than that— that maternity services may be removed from Falkirk royal infirmary. There is a broader concern, throughout Scotland, about a trend that began under the previous Government towards the centralisation of many services, including maternity services. Will the minister take it from me that it would be completely unacceptable to deprive mothers of the right to have their children in Falkirk royal infirmary if that is their wish?", "EditedTextHTML": "A few weeks ago, the minister visited Falkirk royal infirmary. I am grateful for the fact that she notified me so that I could accompany her on her visit—a courtesy that the First Minister and some of his ministerial colleagues unfortunately do not follow.

The minister may be aware that, since her visit, there has been concern in the Falkirk area about suggestions—and I put it no stronger than that— that maternity services may be removed from Falkirk royal infirmary. There is a broader concern, throughout Scotland, about a trend that began under the previous Government towards the centralisation of many services, including maternity services. Will the minister take it from me that it would be completely unacceptable to deprive mothers of the right to have their children in Falkirk royal infirmary if that is their wish?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3577977+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C706211", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 151.0, "ContributionID": 706211, "EditedText": "We all agree in this chamber that promoting better health, improving the people of Scotland's health and working in partnership are key priorities for the Parliament. I was delighted to hear Susan Deacon say that no government diktat will make a difference in that, as that is the background to my amendment. Although the \"challenge for individuals . . . who can do so much to improve and safeguard their own health\" is briefly mentioned on page 62 of \"Towards a Healthier Scotland\", I ask her to support my amendment to ensure that we give greater emphasis to individuals taking responsibility for their own health. The issue was before the public eye last week regarding cervical cancer screening—we discovered that many individuals had been called for a smear test as many as eight times. I would like Susan to use this opportunity not just to set out a framework for public health but to encourage individuals, within this chamber and throughout Scotland, to take greater ownership of their own health. I hope that she will support me in raising the profile of individual responsibility, as is endorsed in the white paper. A successful project in Finland was based on major lifestyle changes through concerted individual, community and Government action. I ask the minister again to bring the individual into this partnership. There are many wide-ranging aspects to this debate on public health, and I hope that my colleagues Ben Wallace, Alex Fergusson, David Mundell and David Davidson will have the opportunity to contribute to it. The white paper on health addresses major areas. It also includes nine specific funding pledges. This comes in a week when an additional £80 million is being given to education from other budgets. I ask the minister to honour those nine funding pledges and to state that there will be no reduction in the health budget to fund additional promises in other areas just to keep the Lib-Lab pact on line. I would also like a breakdown of the funding; I will be lodging a written question to that effect. Apart from the nine specific funding pledges, the action plan also includes the creation of two new national posts, at least one task force, six new strategies, one more advisory panel, another new expert group and various other new groups to co-ordinate activities. At least seven commitments in this white paper are to include the councils. However, I bring to the minister's attention the fact that neither the paper nor her speech mentioned including general practitioners. Social inclusion would seem to include councils, but the Scottish Conservative party would like assurances that GPs will remain at the forefront of health delivery in Scotland and be fully included in the new plans. The record of Scottish council social work departments in delivering care in the community and blocking beds in our hospitals is nothing short of a national scandal, and yet councils are given a priority and recognition beyond that of the tried and tested backbone of the health service—the GPs. On the smoking ban in public places proposed by Hugh Henry, as a new Parliament we must ask why, in December 1988, Donald Dewar, as Secretary of State for Scotland in Westminster, signed up to a voluntary agreement with the industry in response to the white paper \"Smoking Kills\", yet now finds it necessary to support and legislate for a ban on smoking in public places.", "EditedTextHTML": "We all agree in this chamber that promoting better health, improving the people of Scotland's health and working in partnership are key priorities for the Parliament. I was delighted to hear Susan Deacon say that no government diktat will make a difference in that, as that is the background to my amendment. Although the

\"challenge for individuals . . . who can do so much to improve and safeguard their own health\" is briefly mentioned on page 62 of \"Towards a Healthier Scotland\", I ask her to support my amendment to ensure that we give greater emphasis to individuals taking responsibility for their own health.

The issue was before the public eye last week regarding cervical cancer screening—we discovered that many individuals had been called for a smear test as many as eight times. I would like Susan to use this opportunity not just to set out a framework for public health but to encourage individuals, within this chamber and throughout Scotland, to take greater ownership of their own health. I hope that she will support me in raising the profile of individual responsibility, as is endorsed in the white paper.

A successful project in Finland was based on major lifestyle changes through concerted individual, community and Government action. I ask the minister again to bring the individual into this partnership.

There are many wide-ranging aspects to this debate on public health, and I hope that my colleagues Ben Wallace, Alex Fergusson, David Mundell and David Davidson will have the opportunity to contribute to it.

The white paper on health addresses major areas. It also includes nine specific funding pledges. This comes in a week when an additional £80 million is being given to education from other budgets. I ask the minister to honour those nine funding pledges and to state that there will be no reduction in the health budget to fund additional promises in other areas just to keep the Lib-Lab pact on line. I would also like a breakdown of the funding; I will be lodging a written question to that effect.

Apart from the nine specific funding pledges, the action plan also includes the creation of two new national posts, at least one task force, six new strategies, one more advisory panel, another new expert group and various other new groups to co-ordinate activities. At least seven commitments in this white paper are to include the councils. However, I bring to the minister's attention the fact that neither the paper nor her speech mentioned including general practitioners. Social inclusion would seem to include councils, but the Scottish Conservative party would like assurances that GPs will remain at the forefront of health delivery in Scotland and be fully included in the new plans. The record of Scottish council social work departments in delivering care in the community and blocking beds in our hospitals is nothing short of a national scandal, and yet councils are given a priority and recognition beyond that of the tried and tested backbone of the health service—the GPs.

On the smoking ban in public places proposed by Hugh Henry, as a new Parliament we must ask why, in December 1988, Donald Dewar, as Secretary of State for Scotland in Westminster, signed up to a voluntary agreement with the industry in response to the white paper \"Smoking Kills\", yet now finds it necessary to support and legislate for a ban on smoking in public places.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3577977+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C706219", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 168.0, "ContributionID": 706219, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3577977+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1811E172P455C706224", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ullrich, Kay", "ID": 1811, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kay Ullrich", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Kay Ullrich: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 178.0, "ContributionID": 706224, "EditedText": "By the tone of the previous speech, it is clear that the Conservatives are still giving out the same old, tired Tory line—\"Don't worry, baby. Keep the faith.\" I will deal with the Government later. Poverty was the condition that dared not speak its name and the white paper is to be commended for at last recognising the undoubted link between poverty and ill health. As Susan said, this nation of ours has the worst health record in Europe. It is no coincidence that one in three of Scotland's children lives below the poverty line, that more than 20,000 Scottish children are homeless in any given year, and that every year fuel poverty contributes to the deaths of 2,500 of our elderly people. Those are cold figures when read on the printed page, but they represent real people suffering real hardship in Scotland today. I do not know about everybody in this Parliament, but I find it an absolute obscenity that Scotland, the most fuel- rich nation in Europe, should have the worst winter deaths record in Europe. Fuel poverty amid fuel plenty must not be tolerated by this Parliament. The exciting thing is that this Parliament has a unique opportunity to tackle the scandal of poverty and ill health in Scotland. There can be no one in this chamber today who does not want to improve the health and quality of life of our fellow citizens. I, for one, believe that improving Scotland's health and eradicating poverty are the number one challenge that faces this Parliament. If we are to achieve that goal, we must take an integrated and—I hope—consensual approach to the issue. The key is to recognise—as, I believe, the white paper goes some way towards doing—that poor public health cannot be tackled in isolation. There is hardly a legislative area that does not have an impact on poverty and ill health. That is why the SNP argues for a minister with responsibility for public health, so that we can truly raise public health to the top of the agenda. After all, community care has—rightly—been recognised by the appointment of a responsible minister. The appointment of a minister for public health would underline our commitment to improving our nation's health. The minister would play a pivotal role in an anti-poverty strategy. He or she would be responsible for auditing—or, as I prefer to say, poverty-proofing—each piece of legislation at a pre-legislative stage, and for analysing the potential impact on poverty and public health of proposed legislation. It is essential that we, as a Parliament, develop an anti-poverty strategy for Scotland, with a dedicated key minister responsible for implementing it. It is also imperative that the number of public health consultants in Scotland be returned to at least its previous level. In the past 10 years, we have lost almost 50 per cent of our public health consultants. The reason for that is quite simple— the continued inclusion of public health doctors in health board management costs. The truth is that those specialists have been lost not by design, but by cuts by stealth. It is easy for cash-strapped health boards to make cuts in an area that is not as visible as others. If we are to restore the morale and the effectiveness of the public health profession, it is essential that the minister reassert the right of freedom of speech for public health consultants. They must be allowed to speak out in the public interest without fear of professional repercussions. I commend the target setting in the white paper. Nobody can disagree with the sentiments that the minister expressed—at least, that is what I thought until Mary Scanlon made her speech. If we are to achieve those targets, new money will require to be invested in key target areas—of which I can suggest a few. We need to start public health training in the community and increase the number of skilled nurses who are available to work with people to improve public health at local level. Money must be invested to allow community nurses to gain further public health qualifications. New resources should be focused on public health initiatives in GP practices and in outreach work. I ask the minister to set a target to provide every GP practice with access to a named learning disability nurse by the end of this session. Another example of the Government putting its money where its mouth is would be the target for dental health in children under the age of five. The best way to encourage families to ensure dental care for their children is for the parents to visit their dentist regularly. That could be achieved with an investment of only £4.5 million a year to reintroduce a free annual dental check-up for everybody in Scotland. That would help to make a visit to the dentist a family norm and encourage good dental health from an early age.", "EditedTextHTML": "By the tone of the previous speech, it is clear that the Conservatives are still giving out the same old, tired Tory line—\"Don't worry, baby. Keep the faith.\" I will deal with the Government later.

Poverty was the condition that dared not speak its name and the white paper is to be commended for at last recognising the undoubted link between poverty and ill health. As Susan said, this nation of ours has the worst health record in Europe. It is no coincidence that one in three of Scotland's children lives below the poverty line, that more than 20,000 Scottish children are homeless in any given year, and that every year fuel poverty contributes to the deaths of 2,500 of our elderly people.

Those are cold figures when read on the printed page, but they represent real people suffering real hardship in Scotland today. I do not know about everybody in this Parliament, but I find it an absolute obscenity that Scotland, the most fuel- rich nation in Europe, should have the worst winter deaths record in Europe. Fuel poverty amid fuel plenty must not be tolerated by this Parliament.

The exciting thing is that this Parliament has a unique opportunity to tackle the scandal of poverty and ill health in Scotland. There can be no one in this chamber today who does not want to improve the health and quality of life of our fellow citizens. I, for one, believe that improving Scotland's health and eradicating poverty are the number one challenge that faces this Parliament. If we are to achieve that goal, we must take an integrated and—I hope—consensual approach to the issue.

The key is to recognise—as, I believe, the white paper goes some way towards doing—that poor public health cannot be tackled in isolation. There is hardly a legislative area that does not have an impact on poverty and ill health. That is why the SNP argues for a minister with responsibility for public health, so that we can truly raise public health to the top of the agenda. After all, community care has—rightly—been recognised by the appointment of a responsible minister.

The appointment of a minister for public health would underline our commitment to improving our nation's health. The minister would play a pivotal role in an anti-poverty strategy. He or she would be responsible for auditing—or, as I prefer to say, poverty-proofing—each piece of legislation at a pre-legislative stage, and for analysing the potential impact on poverty and public health of proposed legislation. It is essential that we, as a Parliament, develop an anti-poverty strategy for Scotland, with a dedicated key minister responsible for implementing it.

It is also imperative that the number of public health consultants in Scotland be returned to at least its previous level. In the past 10 years, we have lost almost 50 per cent of our public health consultants. The reason for that is quite simple— the continued inclusion of public health doctors in health board management costs. The truth is that those specialists have been lost not by design, but by cuts by stealth. It is easy for cash-strapped health boards to make cuts in an area that is not as visible as others.

If we are to restore the morale and the effectiveness of the public health profession, it is essential that the minister reassert the right of freedom of speech for public health consultants. They must be allowed to speak out in the public interest without fear of professional repercussions.

I commend the target setting in the white paper. Nobody can disagree with the sentiments that the minister expressed—at least, that is what I thought until Mary Scanlon made her speech. If we are to achieve those targets, new money will require to be invested in key target areas—of which I can suggest a few. We need to start public health training in the community and increase the number of skilled nurses who are available to work with people to improve public health at local level. Money must be invested to allow community nurses to gain further public health qualifications. New resources should be focused on public health initiatives in GP practices and in outreach work. I ask the minister to set a target to provide every GP practice with access to a named learning disability nurse by the end of this session.

Another example of the Government putting its money where its mouth is would be the target for dental health in children under the age of five. The best way to encourage families to ensure dental care for their children is for the parents to visit their dentist regularly. That could be achieved with an investment of only £4.5 million a year to reintroduce a free annual dental check-up for everybody in Scotland. That would help to make a visit to the dentist a family norm and encourage good dental health from an early age.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3577977+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C706225", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 180.0, "ContributionID": 706225, "EditedText": "The minister mentioned fluoridation of the water supply in her speech. The British Dental Association, which recognises the problem of dental health in the under-fives, suggests that the best way forward would be fluoridation. Does Kay Ullrich accept that the British Dental Association might be right?", "EditedTextHTML": "The minister mentioned fluoridation of the water supply in her speech. The British Dental Association, which recognises the problem of dental health in the under-fives, suggests that the best way forward would be fluoridation. Does Kay Ullrich accept that the British Dental Association might be right?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3577977+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C706227", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ms Patricia Ferguson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 184.0, "ContributionID": 706227, "EditedText": "I remind members that the time allocated for speeches in this part of the debate is four minutes. Members should try to adhere to that as far as possible.", "EditedTextHTML": "I remind members that the time allocated for speeches in this part of the debate is four minutes. Members should try to adhere to that as far as possible.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3577977+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C706231", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 193.0, "ContributionID": 706231, "EditedText": "Please come to a close, Mrs Smith.", "EditedTextHTML": "Please come to a close, Mrs Smith.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3577977+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2123E103P242C706235", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Chisholm, Malcolm", "ID": 2123, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh North and Leith" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Malcolm Chisholm", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Malcolm Chisholm: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 202.0, "ContributionID": 706235, "EditedText": "I have only two minutes left. I am sorry I cannot give way, but I look forward to discussing the issue in the Health and Community Care Committee and elsewhere. I welcome the minister's emphasis on minus one to five—the years of life, including the period in the womb, when all the evidence shows that issues such as birth weight are so significant. It is really good that the Executive is emphasising that. That too is related, as the Acheson report in England reminded us, to levels of income. In terms of welfare reform, we have to consider the income of pregnant women as well as women in the early years of their children's lives. Food is a good example of how income issues relate to the lifestyle issue of diet. I would like to expand on that, but time does not allow me to do so. I will just say that in my constituency there is an excellent food project called Barry Grub, which tries to provide healthy food at wholesale rates in the Pilton area. We should consider food co-operatives and initiatives so that the problems poor families have buying healthy food are addressed. The emphasis on mental health in the white paper is also very important. If I may advertise my constituency again, I will mention that there is an excellent community mental health project in my constituency, called The Stress Centre. The Executive should support initiatives such as that, which address the higher levels of mental health problems in certain areas. There are many initiatives on mental health. I was glad to see circulars from the Executive on post-natal depression and on domestic violence, as both are closely related to mental health. I hope that the Healthy Respect project on teenage pregnancy will also consider how men and women relate to each other—they should certainly not do so with violence and inequality. Time is almost up, but I have one final important point about the white paper. The issue is not just about addressing life circumstances and lifestyle; it is also about involving people at the grass roots in decisions about their health care. I am pleased that the proposals for the task force make that point. The task force will involve people from local communities, and that bottom-up approach is fundamental. It is practised in many community health projects, such as the one in my constituency. I hope that, if there is any money floating around after the review, some small sums could be targeted towards community health projects as part of the social inclusion partnerships. Those projects involve local people in addressing those issues, which are a challenge to us all.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have only two minutes left. I am sorry I cannot give way, but I look forward to discussing the issue in the Health and Community Care Committee and elsewhere.

I welcome the minister's emphasis on minus one to five—the years of life, including the period in the womb, when all the evidence shows that issues such as birth weight are so significant. It is really good that the Executive is emphasising that. That too is related, as the Acheson report in England reminded us, to levels of income. In terms of welfare reform, we have to consider the income of pregnant women as well as women in the early years of their children's lives.

Food is a good example of how income issues relate to the lifestyle issue of diet. I would like to expand on that, but time does not allow me to do so. I will just say that in my constituency there is an excellent food project called Barry Grub, which tries to provide healthy food at wholesale rates in the Pilton area. We should consider food co-operatives and initiatives so that the problems poor families have buying healthy food are addressed.

The emphasis on mental health in the white paper is also very important. If I may advertise my constituency again, I will mention that there is an excellent community mental health project in my constituency, called The Stress Centre. The Executive should support initiatives such as that, which address the higher levels of mental health problems in certain areas.

There are many initiatives on mental health. I was glad to see circulars from the Executive on post-natal depression and on domestic violence,

as both are closely related to mental health. I hope that the Healthy Respect project on teenage pregnancy will also consider how men and women relate to each other—they should certainly not do so with violence and inequality.

Time is almost up, but I have one final important point about the white paper. The issue is not just about addressing life circumstances and lifestyle; it is also about involving people at the grass roots in decisions about their health care. I am pleased that the proposals for the task force make that point. The task force will involve people from local communities, and that bottom-up approach is fundamental. It is practised in many community health projects, such as the one in my constituency.

I hope that, if there is any money floating around after the review, some small sums could be targeted towards community health projects as part of the social inclusion partnerships. Those projects involve local people in addressing those issues, which are a challenge to us all.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3577977+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1876E194P490C706236", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Marwick, Tricia", "ID": 1876, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tricia Marwick", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tricia Marwick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 205.0, "ContributionID": 706236, "EditedText": "I associate myself with the comments made by my colleague, Kay Ullrich. There is much in the white paper that commends itself to all members. I want to address a number of issues. For some of us, the lifestyle that we choose has a bearing on the life that we eventually have. I want to concentrate on those who have no lifestyle choices and no choice about the life that they live. \"Action on life circumstances is the rock on which work to improve lifestyles and tackle disease will stand or fall.\" Those are fine words from \"Towards a Healthier Scotland\"—and the minister talked about tackling the root causes of ill health—but there is one startling omission from the action points in that document. Its authors have not said how they intend to tackle damp housing in Scotland. Thirty per cent of children in Scotland live in damp houses. More than half a million children and pensioners have no choice about the circumstances in which they live. The link between damp housing and health is well established. Asthma, bronchitis and other respiratory diseases are prevalent among people who live in houses that are riddled with damp. A study of damp housing and asthma in Glasgow, published in 1996, states: \"The greater the severity of dampness or mould in the home the more likely the patient was to have severe asthma.\" More children suffer from asthma in Scotland than anywhere else in Europe. All of us come into this chamber with experience from previous jobs and from events in our lives. I am no exception. While I worked for Shelter, I came into contact with people in the most appalling housing conditions. I met mothers who were in despair because their babies were constantly being admitted to hospital with respiratory diseases, and children who could not go to school because their clothes stank of dampness. One such mother was Michelle from Glasgow, whose young son had been constantly in hospital; he screamed non-stop and he failed to thrive. Consultants finally discovered that he was suffering from Weil's disease, a rare illness caused by being exposed to rat urine. The rats were living under the floorboards in a Glasgow City Council house, scraping and scratching all night and terrifying the family. The disease has left that child with no lining in his nasal passages and his health will be affected for the rest of his life. What choice did that baby have in the lifestyle or life circumstances in which he was being brought up? I warn members that I shall return again and again to the issue of dampness and health. I ask the minister why, having mentioned damp housing in the document, she is not setting targets for tackling dampness in Scottish homes. Why have no targets been set for reducing respiratory diseases? In the earlier part of this century, the massive investment in public housing came as a drive to improve public health. The departments have forgotten the lesson of the joined-up thinking of 60 years ago. We must re-establish the link between housing and public health. It does not have to be like this. We need to invest money to tackle dampness. A recent project in Cornwall invested £300,000 in housing to improve the homes of children with asthma. Central heating was installed, dampness was eliminated, the children's health and school attendance improved and their life chances improved as a result. I welcome the white paper, but it does not go far enough. We will never improve the health of our nation until we improve the state of the homes in which people live.", "EditedTextHTML": "I associate myself with the comments made by my colleague, Kay Ullrich. There is much in the white paper that commends itself to all members. I want to address a number of issues.

For some of us, the lifestyle that we choose has a bearing on the life that we eventually have. I want to concentrate on those who have no lifestyle choices and no choice about the life that they live.

\"Action on life circumstances is the rock on which work to improve lifestyles and tackle disease will stand or fall.\"

Those are fine words from \"Towards a Healthier Scotland\"—and the minister talked about tackling the root causes of ill health—but there is one startling omission from the action points in that document. Its authors have not said how they intend to tackle damp housing in Scotland.

Thirty per cent of children in Scotland live in damp houses. More than half a million children and pensioners have no choice about the circumstances in which they live. The link between damp housing and health is well established. Asthma, bronchitis and other respiratory diseases are prevalent among people who live in houses that are riddled with damp.

A study of damp housing and asthma in Glasgow, published in 1996, states:

\"The greater the severity of dampness or mould in the home the more likely the patient was to have severe asthma.\"

More children suffer from asthma in Scotland than anywhere else in Europe.

All of us come into this chamber with experience from previous jobs and from events in our lives. I am no exception. While I worked for Shelter, I came into contact with people in the most appalling housing conditions. I met mothers who were in despair because their babies were constantly being admitted to hospital with respiratory diseases, and children who could not go to school because their clothes stank of dampness.

One such mother was Michelle from Glasgow, whose young son had been constantly in hospital; he screamed non-stop and he failed to thrive. Consultants finally discovered that he was suffering from Weil's disease, a rare illness caused by being exposed to rat urine. The rats were living under the floorboards in a Glasgow City Council house, scraping and scratching all night and terrifying the family. The disease has left that child with no lining in his nasal passages and his health will be affected for the rest of his life.

What choice did that baby have in the lifestyle or life circumstances in which he was being brought up? I warn members that I shall return again and again to the issue of dampness and health. I ask the minister why, having mentioned damp housing in the document, she is not setting targets for tackling dampness in Scottish homes. Why have no targets been set for reducing respiratory diseases?

In the earlier part of this century, the massive investment in public housing came as a drive to improve public health. The departments have forgotten the lesson of the joined-up thinking of 60 years ago. We must re-establish the link between housing and public health.

It does not have to be like this. We need to invest money to tackle dampness. A recent project in Cornwall invested £300,000 in housing to improve the homes of children with asthma. Central heating was installed, dampness was eliminated, the children's health and school attendance improved and their life chances improved as a result.

I welcome the white paper, but it does not go far enough. We will never improve the health of our nation until we improve the state of the homes in which people live.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3577977+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1916E38P70C706237", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Ben", "ID": 1916, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ben Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ben Wallace (North-East Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 208.0, "ContributionID": 706237, "EditedText": "I would like to make it clear from the outset that I am in favour of public health. Laughter. As Margaret Smith will testify, I am always on at her to get sport and prevention into committee work, so that we can introduce measures which we hope will pay off in the future by alleviating the demands on the health service. I reiterate the point made by my colleague Mary Scanlon: individual responsibility is something that we must develop. If we do not, we will have to produce another white paper on public health in five, 10 or 20 years' time. I visited Tayside Health Board to get a briefing on the cervical smear tragedy, when 19,000 women fell through the screening net. There are many problems that the board will investigate and on which it will report. However, as Mary mentioned, a number of the women were sent repeated reminders and requests. In Braemar, where I lived last year, every weekend, brave men and women of the mountain rescue service would rescue injured people off the mountain and send them to hospital by helicopter. Many of the people they rescue go climbing unprepared and ignore advice. In all those cases, the NHS has to foot the bill. It worries me that a public health culture is emerging that expects the state to follow people around, tidying up after them. People who make such errors rob the health service of much needed funds—funds that could be better used to care for leukaemia sufferers or the elderly. My difficulty with \"Towards a Healthier Scotland\"is not its aims, but the way in which they will be implemented. Public health should be a contract between the health service and society—it must work both ways. The white paper sets out three processes for achieving better public health. It blames much on life circumstances. I agree with the observation that crime, low pay and conditions and poor education contribute to ill health. I also support the housing measures and the fact that the white paper recognises that poor housing contributes to poor health. However, it also relies on the fact that the new deal is working, that new Labour is improving education, and that jobs and prosperity are increasing. Nevertheless, in the past two and a half years we have seen an increase in violent and drug- based crime. This year, we have seen the pupil- teacher ratio rise. We have seen rural economies in the Borders and in the Highlands in recession. The Executive's measures are not helping the farmer and the manufacturer to feel better about their circumstances. What sort of message is the Executive sending about public health to the people of Scotland when the young doctors at the very heart of the NHS are exempted from the pay and conditions that they deserve? One of the best ways to create better life circumstances is to create better jobs. However, there are more and more regulations on small businesses, which need to be encouraged in the deprived parts of Scotland. Nearly 2,000 extra regulations have been imposed on business since Labour came to power. I would like to deregulate to allow communities to thrive again. Susan Deacon said that she would take no lectures from us after our 18 years of government. However, I will not take lectures from a party that put Bernie Ecclestone's £1 million bung before the interests of public health. Labour cannot wriggle out of that, because its proposals for tobacco advertising bans for everyone except Bernie Ecclestone are there for all to see. I was disappointed that the minister never once mentioned drugs. I understand that there will be separate proposals, but drugs are such a part of society now that drugs policy must be intertwined with the public health strategy from the very bottom. No doubt the thousands of people who are alleged to take ecstasy illegally every weekend will be the first to expect the national health service to treat them for their problems in 20 years' time. The final jigsaw piece for a healthier Scotland is action on health topics. I welcome the cautious moves towards fluoridation and the stepping up of the initiatives of the Health Education Board for Scotland to educate people about the dangers of heart disease. However, statistics that came out a few weeks ago show that cases of cancer, cases of sexually transmitted diseases, waiting lists and teenage pregnancies have all risen, this year and last year. Some of the statistics have bucked the trend from the time when we were in government. It is hard to see how getting a healthier Scotland can be achieved under Labour without developing more measures to take people's individual responsibility into account. I urge the Parliament to back our amendment.", "EditedTextHTML": "I would like to make it clear from the outset that I am in favour of public health. [Laughter.] As Margaret Smith will testify, I am always on at her to get sport and prevention into committee work, so that we can introduce measures which we hope will pay off in the future by alleviating the demands on the health service.

I reiterate the point made by my colleague Mary Scanlon: individual responsibility is something that we must develop. If we do not, we will have to produce another white paper on public health in five, 10 or 20 years' time.

I visited Tayside Health Board to get a briefing on the cervical smear tragedy, when 19,000 women fell through the screening net. There are many problems that the board will investigate and on which it will report. However, as Mary mentioned, a number of the women were sent repeated reminders and requests.

In Braemar, where I lived last year, every weekend, brave men and women of the mountain rescue service would rescue injured people off the mountain and send them to hospital by helicopter. Many of the people they rescue go climbing unprepared and ignore advice.

In all those cases, the NHS has to foot the bill. It worries me that a public health culture is emerging that expects the state to follow people around, tidying up after them. People who make such errors rob the health service of much needed funds—funds that could be better used to care for leukaemia sufferers or the elderly.

My difficulty with \"Towards a Healthier Scotland\"

is not its aims, but the way in which they will be implemented. Public health should be a contract between the health service and society—it must work both ways. The white paper sets out three processes for achieving better public health. It blames much on life circumstances. I agree with the observation that crime, low pay and conditions and poor education contribute to ill health. I also support the housing measures and the fact that the white paper recognises that poor housing contributes to poor health. However, it also relies on the fact that the new deal is working, that new Labour is improving education, and that jobs and prosperity are increasing.

Nevertheless, in the past two and a half years we have seen an increase in violent and drug- based crime. This year, we have seen the pupil- teacher ratio rise. We have seen rural economies in the Borders and in the Highlands in recession. The Executive's measures are not helping the farmer and the manufacturer to feel better about their circumstances.

What sort of message is the Executive sending about public health to the people of Scotland when the young doctors at the very heart of the NHS are exempted from the pay and conditions that they deserve?

One of the best ways to create better life circumstances is to create better jobs. However, there are more and more regulations on small businesses, which need to be encouraged in the deprived parts of Scotland. Nearly 2,000 extra regulations have been imposed on business since Labour came to power. I would like to deregulate to allow communities to thrive again.

Susan Deacon said that she would take no lectures from us after our 18 years of government. However, I will not take lectures from a party that put Bernie Ecclestone's £1 million bung before the interests of public health. Labour cannot wriggle out of that, because its proposals for tobacco advertising bans for everyone except Bernie Ecclestone are there for all to see.

I was disappointed that the minister never once mentioned drugs. I understand that there will be separate proposals, but drugs are such a part of society now that drugs policy must be intertwined with the public health strategy from the very bottom. No doubt the thousands of people who are alleged to take ecstasy illegally every weekend will be the first to expect the national health service to treat them for their problems in 20 years' time.

The final jigsaw piece for a healthier Scotland is action on health topics. I welcome the cautious moves towards fluoridation and the stepping up of the initiatives of the Health Education Board for Scotland to educate people about the dangers of heart disease. However, statistics that came out a few weeks ago show that cases of cancer, cases of sexually transmitted diseases, waiting lists and teenage pregnancies have all risen, this year and last year. Some of the statistics have bucked the trend from the time when we were in government. It is hard to see how getting a healthier Scotland can be achieved under Labour without developing more measures to take people's individual responsibility into account. I urge the Parliament to back our amendment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3577977+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1970E66P288C706238", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNulty, Des", "ID": 1970, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Clydebank and Milngavie" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Des McNulty", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Des McNulty (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 211.0, "ContributionID": 706238, "EditedText": "Some sad and misguided people apart, there is, I believe, a widespread consensus in the health service and among the people of Scotland in support of the objectives set out in the public health white paper—especially in the action points in the white paper's summary. I was a member of the working group set up by Sam Galbraith while he was the Scottish health minister, which decided the health targets for incorporation in the white paper. I can testify to the rigour with which those targets were set. It was intended that they should pose a challenge—not just for the health service, but for other public agencies. Local authorities will have a vital part to play, as will the voluntary sector and the Scottish Parliament. The fact that the Government now firmly recognises that poor health has its roots in poverty, inadequate housing and joblessness—as well as in associated lifestyle factors such as poor diet and lack of exercise—represents a tremendous break with the past. The previous Conservative Government's denial of those causal connections—in the face of overwhelming expert advice—undoubtedly held back progress between 1979 and 1997. We have already heard from Mary Scanlon, whose advice was essentially to do nothing. She criticised a series of actions to be taken, but she had nothing to put in their place— apart from muttered comments about individual responsibility. Yes, individual responsibility exists, but so does society's responsibility. If we are to tackle Scotland's health problems, society has to take responsibility. The prime place for that responsibility to be exercised is in this Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "Some sad and misguided people apart, there is, I believe, a widespread consensus in the health service and among the people of Scotland in support of the objectives set out in the public health white paper—especially in the action points in the white paper's summary. I was a member of the working group set up by Sam Galbraith while he was the Scottish health minister, which decided the health targets for incorporation in the white paper. I can testify to the rigour with which those targets were set. It was intended that they should pose a challenge—not just for the health service, but for other public agencies. Local authorities will have a vital part to play, as will the voluntary sector and the Scottish Parliament.

The fact that the Government now firmly recognises that poor health has its roots in poverty, inadequate housing and joblessness—as well as in associated lifestyle factors such as poor

diet and lack of exercise—represents a tremendous break with the past. The previous Conservative Government's denial of those causal connections—in the face of overwhelming expert advice—undoubtedly held back progress between 1979 and 1997. We have already heard from Mary Scanlon, whose advice was essentially to do nothing. She criticised a series of actions to be taken, but she had nothing to put in their place— apart from muttered comments about individual responsibility. Yes, individual responsibility exists, but so does society's responsibility. If we are to tackle Scotland's health problems, society has to take responsibility. The prime place for that responsibility to be exercised is in this Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3577977+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C706239", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Brian Monteith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 213.0, "ContributionID": 706239, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3577977+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C706252", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 242.0, "ContributionID": 706252, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3577977+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C706248", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 234.0, "ContributionID": 706248, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3577977+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1892E34P73C706255", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Fergusson, Alex", "ID": 1892, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Fergusson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Fergusson (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 249.0, "ContributionID": 706255, "EditedText": "It is with a certain amount of trepidation that I enter this debate, because I acknowledge that my subject rolls into the fields of justice, education and social services, as well as taking its primary place within the health service. I strongly believe that my subject is not only one of the greatest dangers to our health, as a nation, but is capable of damaging the social structure of our society. It is a curse that knows no boundaries of class, creed, wealth, colour or political affiliation and that frightens all parents as their children grow up in today's society. It is a curse that has an adverse affect on every community, no matter how large or small, and that we must address, as a Parliament whose aim—indeed whose promise—is to improve the lot of those in our society who can least help themselves. I refer, of course, to drugs and to those who use, misuse and abuse them. Any debate about those who supply them is for another occasion. As a Parliament, we will be guilty of the utmost neglect if we are not able to concentrate on and prioritise the issue of drugs in our first four-year term of office. The rewards of making progress would be enormous; for example, there would be huge benefits in terms of police resources. Just this week, I had a meeting with the chief constable of Dumfries and Galloway, who informed me that 70 per cent of crime in that region was directly drugs related. There would be equally enormous benefits to our social services and to our local authority resources, but the greatest benefit would be to our health service and consequently to the health status of our nation and its people. It is surely incumbent on this Parliament to try to achieve those benefits because, as the minister said, we have a magnificent opportunity to take a new initiative on this and other issues. I have spoken to many people who are involved in drugs rehabilitation and I keep coming up against the view—interesting and unusual these days—that there is plenty of money being thrown at the problem. The Scottish Drugs Forum all-party working group's report states that £50 million annually is the current expenditure on response to drugs use. However, I am constantly told that that £50 million is not being used in the most effective way. We need to find the most effective ways, or best practice as it is better known, and we need to consider prevention through education. There is an overwhelming need for a national strategy rather than the fragmented one that is currently employed. Where we fail to prevent or to educate, we need to listen to those who work in rehabilitation and to listen and learn from those who have first-hand experience of the pain and peril of drug addiction. Given the belief that sufficient resources are available, but that they could be better applied, the answer to some of the problems lies in another of the Executive's buzz words, which also appears in Mary Scanlon's amendment: partnership. This issue, above all, is surely the perfect one in which partnerships should be employed—between Government departments, local authority departments, the voluntary sector and individuals. The Government's drugs expert, Professor Howard Parker, predicts that we are on the verge of a new heroin epidemic, as if the present one was not serious enough. The announcement of a new drug enforcement agency, while welcome, brings problems of its own, not least in how that agency will be staffed without diluting the expertise on the ground. The agency will not in itself provide the whole answer. The credibility of the Executive, indeed of the Parliament, is on trial to an extent, not least in the media. An urgent, innovative and joined-up approach to the drugs menace in our society would give us a golden opportunity for redemption. It will be to our eternal shame if we do not grasp that opportunity. I support the amendment.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is with a certain amount of trepidation that I enter this debate, because I acknowledge that my subject rolls into the fields of justice, education and social services, as well as taking its primary place within the health service. I strongly believe that my subject is not only one of the greatest dangers to our health, as a nation, but is capable of damaging the social structure of our society. It is a curse that knows no boundaries of class, creed, wealth, colour or political affiliation and that frightens all parents as their children grow up in today's society. It is a curse that has an adverse affect on every community, no matter how large or small, and that we must address, as a Parliament whose aim—indeed whose promise—is to improve the lot of those in our society who can least help themselves. I refer, of course, to drugs and to those who use, misuse and abuse them. Any debate about those who supply them is for another occasion.

As a Parliament, we will be guilty of the utmost neglect if we are not able to concentrate on and prioritise the issue of drugs in our first four-year term of office. The rewards of making progress would be enormous; for example, there would be huge benefits in terms of police resources. Just this week, I had a meeting with the chief constable of Dumfries and Galloway, who informed me that 70 per cent of crime in that region was directly drugs related.

There would be equally enormous benefits to our social services and to our local authority resources, but the greatest benefit would be to our health service and consequently to the health status of our nation and its people. It is surely incumbent on this Parliament to try to achieve those benefits because, as the minister said, we have a magnificent opportunity to take a new initiative on this and other issues.

I have spoken to many people who are involved in drugs rehabilitation and I keep coming up against the view—interesting and unusual these days—that there is plenty of money being thrown at the problem. The Scottish Drugs Forum all-party working group's report states that £50 million annually is the current expenditure on response to drugs use. However, I am constantly told that that £50 million is not being used in the most effective way. We need to find the most effective ways, or best practice as it is better known, and we need to consider prevention through education. There is an overwhelming need for a national strategy rather than the fragmented one that is currently employed. Where we fail to prevent or to educate, we need to listen to those who work in rehabilitation and to listen and learn from those who have first-hand experience of the pain and peril of drug addiction.

Given the belief that sufficient resources are available, but that they could be better applied, the answer to some of the problems lies in another of the Executive's buzz words, which also appears in Mary Scanlon's amendment: partnership. This issue, above all, is surely the perfect one in which partnerships should be employed—between Government departments, local authority departments, the voluntary sector and individuals. The Government's drugs expert, Professor Howard Parker, predicts that we are on the verge of a new heroin epidemic, as if the present one was not serious enough. The announcement of a new drug enforcement agency, while welcome, brings problems of its own, not least in how that agency will be staffed without diluting the expertise on the ground. The agency will not in itself provide the whole answer.

The credibility of the Executive, indeed of the Parliament, is on trial to an extent, not least in the media. An urgent, innovative and joined-up approach to the drugs menace in our society would give us a golden opportunity for redemption. It will be to our eternal shame if we do not grasp that opportunity. I support the amendment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3577977+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C706258", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Simpson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 256.0, "ContributionID": 706258, "EditedText": "This will be the briefest answer— no. Smoking is undoubtedly the most proven health problem. If Hugh Henry's private member's bill does not get through, I will propose to the Health and Community Care Committee that it should use its powers to introduce legislation—and the committees in this Parliament have powers to do that, unlike Westminster—to bring about a ban on smoking in public places. That would set the tone for this Parliament, and would show that we are prepared to lead from the front, as well as being supported by the white paper's partnership from below. I recommend that approach to members.", "EditedTextHTML": "This will be the briefest answer— no.

Smoking is undoubtedly the most proven health problem. If Hugh Henry's private member's bill does not get through, I will propose to the Health and Community Care Committee that it should use its powers to introduce legislation—and the committees in this Parliament have powers to do that, unlike Westminster—to bring about a ban on smoking in public places. That would set the tone for this Parliament, and would show that we are prepared to lead from the front, as well as being supported by the white paper's partnership from below. I recommend that approach to members.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3577977+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C706260", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 260.0, "ContributionID": 706260, "EditedText": "I think that that is a matter for the individual member. I call Mr David Davidson to wind up for the Scottish Conservatives.", "EditedTextHTML": "I think that that is a matter for the individual member.

I call Mr David Davidson to wind up for the Scottish Conservatives.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3577977+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1803E78P291C706262", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gillon, Karen", "ID": 1803, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Clydesdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Karen Gillon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Karen Gillon (Clydesdale) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 265.0, "ContributionID": 706262, "EditedText": "Will Mr Davidson give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr Davidson give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3577977+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C706263", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Davidson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 267.0, "ContributionID": 706263, "EditedText": "Certainly.", "EditedTextHTML": "Certainly.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3577977+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C706265", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Davidson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 271.0, "ContributionID": 706265, "EditedText": "Certainly. I would not deny that in the slightest, but I would make the point that it is only one of the factors. I do not dispute that some people are in poor housing, or that some pensioners suffer because they happen to own their houses, do not qualify for some benefits and therefore cannot afford to heat their houses. We must be a bit more circumspect about cherry- picking health issues. We are talking about a major opportunity for this Parliament, and I welcome the fact that the minister has come here so early in the parliamentary year. However, there is point enough in looking at today's motion and at the amendment. The minister's proposal was about partnership, but does the man in the street not have the right to assume that it is the Government's job to act in partnership and to co-ordinate, regardless of the topic, on behalf of the people of Scotland? Mary Scanlon's amendment was about linking in and trying to assist the individual. Please can we move on. Conservatives care as much as anybody else about the health of the people in Scotland. There are limited resources in the health service and it can no longer afford to pick up the tab for something that should have been cut off earlier on. If the Government is going to invest in early years intervention, we are with them. That will not only release resources for the future, but will reduce personal discomfort and pain in later life. I second Mary Scanlon's amendment.", "EditedTextHTML": "Certainly. I would not deny that in the slightest, but I would make the point that it is only one of the factors. I do not dispute that some people are in poor housing, or that some pensioners suffer because they happen to own their houses, do not qualify for some benefits and therefore cannot afford to heat their houses. We must be a bit more circumspect about cherry- picking health issues.

We are talking about a major opportunity for this Parliament, and I welcome the fact that the minister has come here so early in the parliamentary year. However, there is point enough in looking at today's motion and at the amendment. The minister's proposal was about partnership, but does the man in the street not have the right to assume that it is the

Government's job to act in partnership and to co-ordinate, regardless of the topic, on behalf of the people of Scotland? Mary Scanlon's amendment was about linking in and trying to assist the individual.

Please can we move on. Conservatives care as much as anybody else about the health of the people in Scotland. There are limited resources in the health service and it can no longer afford to pick up the tab for something that should have been cut off earlier on. If the Government is going to invest in early years intervention, we are with them. That will not only release resources for the future, but will reduce personal discomfort and pain in later life. I second Mary Scanlon's amendment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3577977+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2033E106P139C706267", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gray, Iain", "ID": 2033, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Pentlands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Iain Gray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Iain Gray (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 277.0, "ContributionID": 706267, "EditedText": "If we are to show how serious we are about dealing with the big issues in Scotland, we could not have begun today with a better subject. We have shown, during the debate, that we are serious about Scotland's health. After all, what could be more important than the health of our nation, especially when we have so far to go? We know that from one city or town to another—even from one street to another in those cities and towns— life expectancy differs significantly. For a newborn child that one statistic can mean as much as twice the chance of surviving to the age of 15. Such inequality cannot continue. When we talk of deprivation, what is it that our fellow Scots are deprived of? They are deprived of their health and ultimately of life itself. Of course, we must tackle the poverty and inequality that are at the root of those statistics. Sadly, there is no of course about it. I am pleased that our debate has shown so much consensus. For almost 20 years the link between ill health and poverty and inequality was denied, in the face of all the statistics and facts. However, I am saddened that some of the speakers in the debate continue to try to deny that link or to say that addressing individual responsibility is somehow mutually exclusive with recognising that link. Those approaches are not mutually exclusive. I refer Mrs Scanlon to paragraph 129 in the conclusion to the white paper, in which individual responsibility is clearly flagged up. Saddest of all, though, was the fact that David McLetchie was not only unable to engage in consensus politics on such an issue but unable even to bear to watch someone else engaged in consensus politics. David, those are the old ways and everyone else has left them behind. I think that the Scottish people will leave you behind, as they have done already. I cite one example of how ways of thinking must change. Several Conservative members, including Mrs Scanlon, have made efforts to move in the direction of consensus. Mary said that health spending is one third of our budget. This is the key to understanding the new approach: the health department budget is one third of this Executive's budget, but every budget is a health budget. I advise Tricia Marwick that that is why our budgets include measures such as the warm deal and other measures to improve Scotland's housing. That is part of our approach to the issue of health.", "EditedTextHTML": "If we are to show how serious we are about dealing with the big issues in Scotland, we could not have begun today with a better subject. We have shown, during the debate, that we are serious about Scotland's health. After all, what could be more important than the health of our nation, especially when we have so far to go? We know that from one city or town to another—even from one street to another in those cities and towns— life expectancy differs significantly. For a newborn child that one statistic can mean as much as twice the chance of surviving to the age of 15. Such inequality cannot continue. When we talk of deprivation, what is it that our fellow Scots are deprived of? They are deprived of their health and ultimately of life itself. Of course, we must tackle the poverty and inequality that are at the root of those statistics.

Sadly, there is no of course about it. I am pleased that our debate has shown so much consensus. For almost 20 years the link between ill health and poverty and inequality was denied, in the face of all the statistics and facts. However, I am saddened that some of the speakers in the debate continue to try to deny that link or to say that addressing individual responsibility is somehow mutually exclusive with recognising that link. Those approaches are not mutually exclusive. I refer Mrs Scanlon to paragraph 129 in the conclusion to the white paper, in which individual responsibility is clearly flagged up. Saddest of all, though, was the fact that David McLetchie was not only unable to engage in consensus politics on such an issue but unable even to bear to watch someone else engaged in consensus politics. David, those are the old ways and everyone else

has left them behind. I think that the Scottish people will leave you behind, as they have done already.

I cite one example of how ways of thinking must change. Several Conservative members, including Mrs Scanlon, have made efforts to move in the direction of consensus. Mary said that health spending is one third of our budget. This is the key to understanding the new approach: the health department budget is one third of this Executive's budget, but every budget is a health budget. I advise Tricia Marwick that that is why our budgets include measures such as the warm deal and other measures to improve Scotland's housing. That is part of our approach to the issue of health.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3577977+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1876E194P490C706268", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Marwick, Tricia", "ID": 1876, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tricia Marwick", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tricia Marwick: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 279.0, "ContributionID": 706268, "EditedText": "Will Iain Gray confirm that during its first three years this Labour Government will spend £176 million less on housing in Scotland than the Tories did in their last three years?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Iain Gray confirm that during its first three years this Labour Government will spend £176 million less on housing in Scotland than the Tories did in their last three years?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3577977+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2033E106P139C706269", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gray, Iain", "ID": 2033, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Pentlands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Iain Gray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Iain Gray: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 281.0, "ContributionID": 706269, "EditedText": "I confirm that by the end of our period in office we will have spent—if I remember the figure—£600 million more than the budgets that we inherited. We are investing hundreds of millions of pounds in order to build new houses and to improve our housing stock.", "EditedTextHTML": "I confirm that by the end of our period in office we will have spent—if I remember the figure—£600 million more than the budgets that we inherited. We are investing hundreds of millions of pounds in order to build new houses and to improve our housing stock.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3577977+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2033E106P139C706271", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gray, Iain", "ID": 2033, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Pentlands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Iain Gray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Iain Gray: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 285.0, "ContributionID": 706271, "EditedText": "I should not take interventions in a summing-up, and I have already taken one. To make the real difference we must pursue and develop effective partnerships. That is important. Those partnerships will include general practitioners. In the course of my duties as Deputy Minister for Community Care I have yet to find a focus group, but I have spoken to many GPs and I have visited their practices. They are at the centre of health promotion for us. I refer to page 38 of the white paper where the role of primary care trusts and local health care is referred to specifically. The Executive is at the moment co-funding a study to provide guidance to improve early recognition by GPs of signs that might lead to suicide, which is a problem that we take very seriously. Access to learning disability nurses for each practice is a suggestion that I find attractive, but as you will know, there is a learning disability review under way and I expect that they will have a view on that, and we will take it forward. When it comes to general practice, what we are about is breaking down barriers between professions; we are not about promoting turf wars between different parts of our health service, as it seemed Mary Scanlon was doing at one stage. We have to seek new and innovative ways of working to our common purpose. One reason for that is to maximise resources. The white paper pledges resources to this strategy, including resources for HEBS—there is no question of cuts in health promotion budgets. We could argue for a long time about resources, but I want to say two things quite quickly. We are investing £1.8 billion in our health services over the next three years because it is one of our spending priorities, and there must be priorities in spending. But I say to Phil Gallie, whatever the previous Conservative Government invested in the health service is essentially irrelevant because it did not work. The appalling statistics that we are discussing and that are referred to in the white paper are the statistics that we inherited from them. Perhaps—", "EditedTextHTML": "I should not take interventions in a summing-up, and I have already taken one.

To make the real difference we must pursue and develop effective partnerships. That is important. Those partnerships will include general practitioners. In the course of my duties as Deputy Minister for Community Care I have yet to find a focus group, but I have spoken to many GPs and I have visited their practices. They are at the centre of health promotion for us.

I refer to page 38 of the white paper where the role of primary care trusts and local health care is referred to specifically. The Executive is at the moment co-funding a study to provide guidance to improve early recognition by GPs of signs that might lead to suicide, which is a problem that we take very seriously. Access to learning disability nurses for each practice is a suggestion that I find attractive, but as you will know, there is a learning disability review under way and I expect that they will have a view on that, and we will take it forward. When it comes to general practice, what we are about is breaking down barriers between professions; we are not about promoting turf wars between different parts of our health service, as it seemed Mary Scanlon was doing at one stage.

We have to seek new and innovative ways of working to our common purpose. One reason for that is to maximise resources. The white paper pledges resources to this strategy, including resources for HEBS—there is no question of cuts in health promotion budgets. We could argue for a long time about resources, but I want to say two things quite quickly. We are investing £1.8 billion in our health services over the next three years because it is one of our spending priorities, and there must be priorities in spending. But I say to Phil Gallie, whatever the previous Conservative Government invested in the health service is essentially irrelevant because it did not work. The appalling statistics that we are discussing and that are referred to in the white paper are the statistics that we inherited from them. Perhaps—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3577977+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2033E106P139C706275", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gray, Iain", "ID": 2033, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Pentlands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Iain Gray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Iain Gray: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 293.0, "ContributionID": 706275, "EditedText": "Perhaps if they had acknowledged the underlying causes at the time, as both Robin Harper and Des McNulty said, you would have had more impact. Most crucially, we must engage with the communities where the greatest impact must be made. Des McNulty and Robert Brown made that point. We will lay regulations in this Parliament to ban tobacco advertising. Yesterday I was in Wester Hailes, my own constituency, where over 40 per cent of people smoke. I was launching \"Breathe Easy, A Guide to Stopping Smoking\". It is a partnership between the Scottish Executive, Lothian Health Board, Edinburgh University and the local community health agency. It was produced by an expert, Irene Keltie, who lived in Wester Hailes, worked in Wester Hailes, smoked in Wester Hailes and gave up in Wester Hailes. It does not lecture but engages with the people it tries to address. That is the kind of innovation and partnership approach that we need to make what we are doing work. When I left Wester Hailes Irene showed me the pages of names of people that she had signed up to the cessation programme in an hour. She said to me, \"This is what it is about\". It must be what we are about as well. The Parliament has the power to make the difference. The Executive is determined to pursue the delivery of this strategy across all departmental and other boundaries. We have a real opportunity today in this chamber to cut across our own traditional boundaries and stand four-square for better health, for a better life and more of it for all of Scotland's people. Let us take that chance.", "EditedTextHTML": "Perhaps if they had acknowledged the underlying causes at the time, as both Robin Harper and Des McNulty said, you would have had more impact.

Most crucially, we must engage with the communities where the greatest impact must be made. Des McNulty and Robert Brown made that point. We will lay regulations in this Parliament to ban tobacco advertising. Yesterday I was in Wester Hailes, my own constituency, where over 40 per cent of people smoke. I was launching \"Breathe Easy, A Guide to Stopping Smoking\". It is a partnership between the Scottish Executive, Lothian Health Board, Edinburgh University and the local community health agency. It was produced by an expert, Irene Keltie, who lived in Wester Hailes, worked in Wester Hailes, smoked in Wester Hailes and gave up in Wester Hailes. It does not lecture but engages with the people it tries to address. That is the kind of innovation and partnership approach that we need to make what we are doing work.

When I left Wester Hailes Irene showed me the pages of names of people that she had signed up to the cessation programme in an hour. She said to me, \"This is what it is about\". It must be what we are about as well. The Parliament has the power to make the difference. The Executive is determined to pursue the delivery of this strategy across all departmental and other boundaries. We have a real opportunity today in this chamber to cut across our own traditional boundaries and stand four-square for better health, for a better life and more of it for all of Scotland's people. Let us take that chance.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C706278", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 299.0, "ContributionID": 706278, "EditedText": "A genuine one. Two and a half minutes ago, before the minister sat down, I was advised that there was only one minute of his speech left.", "EditedTextHTML": "A genuine one. Two and a half minutes ago, before the minister sat down, I was advised that there was only one minute of his speech left.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706279", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 301.0, "ContributionID": 706279, "EditedText": "Correct.", "EditedTextHTML": "Correct.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C706280", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 303.0, "ContributionID": 706280, "EditedText": "I feel slightly aggrieved.", "EditedTextHTML": "I feel slightly aggrieved.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706282", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Lead Committees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26724, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 307.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 307.0, "ID": 26724, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 308.0, "ContributionID": 706282, "EditedText": "Motion moved,", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion moved,

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706283", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Lead Committees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26724, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 307.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 307.0, "ID": 26724, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 309.0, "ContributionID": 706283, "EditedText": "That the Parliament agrees the following designations of Lead Committees—", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament agrees the following designations of Lead Committees—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706285", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Lead Committees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26724, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 307.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 307.0, "ID": 26724, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 311.0, "ContributionID": 706285, "EditedText": "The Transport and Environment Committee to consider The Environmental Impact Assessment (Scotland) Regulations 1999 (SSI 1999/1)—Mr McCabe.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Transport and Environment Committee to consider The Environmental Impact Assessment (Scotland) Regulations 1999 (SSI 1999/1)—[Mr McCabe.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706293", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26725, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 312.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 312.0, "ID": 26725, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 326.0, "ContributionID": 706293, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706298", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26725, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 312.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 312.0, "ID": 26725, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 332.0, "ContributionID": 706298, "EditedText": "The Rural Affairs Committee to consider The Plant Health (Amendment) (Scotland) Order 1999 (SSI 1999/22);", "EditedTextHTML": "The Rural Affairs Committee to consider The Plant Health (Amendment) (Scotland) Order 1999 (SSI 1999/22);

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706299", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26725, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 312.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 312.0, "ID": 26725, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 333.0, "ContributionID": 706299, "EditedText": "The Transport and Environment Committee to consider The Environmental Impact Assessment (Scotland) Regulations 1999 (SSI 1999/1)", "EditedTextHTML": "The Transport and Environment Committee to consider The Environmental Impact Assessment (Scotland) Regulations 1999 (SSI 1999/1)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706300", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Cowal", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26726, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 334.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 334.0, "ID": 26726, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 335.0, "ContributionID": 706300, "EditedText": "We move to the debate on members' business, on motion S1M-90 in the name of Mr Duncan Hamilton, on the regeneration of Cowal. This debate will be concluded after 30 minutes. Would those members who are not staying for the debate please leave quietly and without conversation? That includes Mr Brown, Mrs Deacon and others.", "EditedTextHTML": "We move to the debate on members' business, on motion S1M-90 in the name of Mr Duncan Hamilton, on the regeneration of Cowal. This debate will be concluded after 30 minutes. Would those members who are not staying for the debate please leave quietly and without conversation? That includes Mr Brown, Mrs Deacon and others.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706301", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Cowal", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26726, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 334.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 334.0, "ID": 26726, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 337.0, "ContributionID": 706301, "EditedText": "Motion debated,", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion debated,

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1985E207P501C706316", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Cowal", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26726, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 334.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 334.0, "ID": 26726, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hamilton, Mr Duncan", "ID": 1985, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Hamilton: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 369.0, "ContributionID": 706316, "EditedText": "Will Mr Lyon give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr Lyon give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C706310", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Cowal", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26726, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 334.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 334.0, "ID": 26726, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ms Patricia Ferguson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 354.0, "ContributionID": 706310, "EditedText": "Before taking members' contributions in this debate, I must indicate that there will be a three-minute time limit on speeches.", "EditedTextHTML": "Before taking members' contributions in this debate, I must indicate that there will be a three-minute time limit on speeches.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1985E207P501C706312", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Cowal", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26726, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 334.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 334.0, "ID": 26726, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hamilton, Mr Duncan", "ID": 1985, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Hamilton rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 359.0, "ContributionID": 706312, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C706319", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Cowal", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26726, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 334.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 334.0, "ID": 26726, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 375.0, "ContributionID": 706319, "EditedText": "If you do not mind, Fergus, I would like to finish off, because other people are waiting to speak. Unemployment has fallen from 834 in January 1993, at the height of the Holy loch situation, to 411 in July 1999. The figure has come down, but it is still too high and we need to take decisions. I thank the minister for coming to view the situation at first hand yesterday. I have asked Sarah Boyack, the Minister for Transport and the Environment, to come and consult local people about how to proceed and resolve the future of Dunoon pier and the ferry service.", "EditedTextHTML": "If you do not mind, Fergus, I would like to finish off, because other people are waiting to speak.

Unemployment has fallen from 834 in January 1993, at the height of the Holy loch situation, to 411 in July 1999. The figure has come down, but it is still too high and we need to take decisions.

I thank the minister for coming to view the situation at first hand yesterday. I have asked Sarah Boyack, the Minister for Transport and the Environment, to come and consult local people about how to proceed and resolve the future of Dunoon pier and the ferry service.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C706320", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Cowal", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26726, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 334.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 334.0, "ID": 26726, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 377.0, "ContributionID": 706320, "EditedText": "Please wind up, Mr Lyon.", "EditedTextHTML": "Please wind up, Mr Lyon.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C706321", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Cowal", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26726, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 334.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 334.0, "ID": 26726, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 379.0, "ContributionID": 706321, "EditedText": "It is very important that we get the Deloitte & Touche report published. We have to bear in mind that it is not just the Scottish Executive that owns that report; Western Ferries was a contributor and must be consulted to ensure that it is happy with the report being published. I welcome this debate and support a lot of what Duncan said. It is essential that decisions are made about the future of the Clyde services and the Dunoon pier.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is very important that we get the Deloitte & Touche report published. We have to bear in mind that it is not just the Scottish Executive that owns that report; Western Ferries was a contributor and must be consulted to ensure that it is happy with the report being published.

I welcome this debate and support a lot of what Duncan said. It is essential that decisions are made about the future of the Clyde services and the Dunoon pier.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C706322", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Cowal", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26726, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 334.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 334.0, "ID": 26726, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell (South of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 382.0, "ContributionID": 706322, "EditedText": "I shall be brief. I speak as a resident of Cowal and as somebody who shops in Dunoon, drinks in Colintraive, and whose son goes to Dunoon Grammar, although I hope that he will do better politically than other people from Dunoon Grammar—notably Brian Wilson. I welcome the speeches of Jamie McGrigor and my member of the Scottish Parliament—although I did not vote for him—but I am surprised by Maureen Macmillan's contribution. She is a signatory of this motion. This campaign is being run by a distinguished newspaper in the community, which knows the community. I am inclined to believe Cowal residents and the people who write in that newspaper when they say that there is a crisis. No matter what official spin—I hope that my friend Alasdair Morrison will be positive—there is from Highlands and Islands Enterprise or officials of Argyll and Bute Council, there is a crisis of confidence and an economic crisis. It does not help to hide from that fact. Duncan Hamilton has outlined some of the elements of that crisis. Let us consider some of the positive solutions. I welcome Jamie McGrigor's conversion on the question of local authority aid. It seems to me that that was always blocked when the Secretary of State for Scotland was a Tory, but I always welcome lost sheep into the fold. If he now supports this campaign, that is well and good. The Government has a duty to recognise the special circumstances—the island circumstances—of the local council, and to take action on them. I say to Maureen that the question is not one of refurbishing a pier. We cannot refurbish something that is falling down. We must rebuild the pier and get the breakwater. The distinguished pier that celebrated its centenary last year is the life-blood of Cowal and must be preserved. It was a dereliction of duty by the local council before the change of administration—I have hopes of the new administration, as my party and Mr Lyon's party are in it, and we have a chance to change things—to allow that pier to collapse. The worst thing that ever happened to Cowal was the election of a so-called independent administration, which was led by Councillor Dick Walsh. It was a disaster for the town. Fortunately, in the new politics we have decided to let bygones be bygones. The Dunoon Observer and Argyllshire Standard is leading the way with an all-party campaign. Let us get behind a campaign for island status for Argyll and Bute, restoration of Dunoon pier and investment in transport links. Let us get some energy into the local enterprise company and let us ensure that the ideas that Maureen talked about—the good ideas that appear every week in the columns of the Dunoon Observer and Argyllshire Standard— are translated into reality by a sympathetic council and a sympathetic enterprise company, both supported adequately by this Administration. I hope that we will hear an enthusiastic message from Alasdair today. He will be very welcome in Cowal again and I shall welcome him into my own house—that was not a bribe—as long as he has something to offer to the community, which feels in crisis, wants assistance and has a community newspaper that is pushing the issue. We can solve the problem, but we can only do so together. We must recognise the problem that exists.", "EditedTextHTML": "I shall be brief. I speak as a resident of Cowal and as somebody who shops in Dunoon, drinks in Colintraive, and whose son goes to Dunoon Grammar, although I hope that he will do better politically than other people from Dunoon Grammar—notably Brian Wilson.

I welcome the speeches of Jamie McGrigor and my member of the Scottish Parliament—although I did not vote for him—but I am surprised by Maureen Macmillan's contribution. She is a signatory of this motion. This campaign is being run by a distinguished newspaper in the community, which knows the community. I am inclined to believe Cowal residents and the people who write in that newspaper when they say that there is a crisis.

No matter what official spin—I hope that my friend Alasdair Morrison will be positive—there is from Highlands and Islands Enterprise or officials of Argyll and Bute Council, there is a crisis of confidence and an economic crisis. It does not help to hide from that fact. Duncan Hamilton has outlined some of the elements of that crisis. Let us consider some of the positive solutions. I welcome Jamie McGrigor's conversion on the question of local authority aid. It seems to me that that was always blocked when the Secretary of State for Scotland was a Tory, but I always welcome lost sheep into the fold. If he now supports this campaign, that is well and good. The Government has a duty to recognise the special circumstances—the island circumstances—of the local council, and to take action on them.

I say to Maureen that the question is not one of refurbishing a pier. We cannot refurbish something that is falling down. We must rebuild the pier and get the breakwater. The distinguished pier that celebrated its centenary last year is the life-blood of Cowal and must be preserved. It was a dereliction of duty by the local council before the change of administration—I have hopes of the new administration, as my party and Mr Lyon's party are in it, and we have a chance to change things—to allow that pier to collapse. The worst thing that ever happened to Cowal was the election of a so-called independent administration, which was led by Councillor Dick Walsh. It was a disaster for the town.

Fortunately, in the new politics we have decided to let bygones be bygones. The Dunoon Observer and Argyllshire Standard is leading the way with an all-party campaign. Let us get behind a campaign for island status for Argyll and Bute, restoration of Dunoon pier and investment in transport links. Let us get some energy into the local enterprise company and let us ensure that the ideas that Maureen talked about—the good ideas that appear every week in the columns of the Dunoon Observer and Argyllshire Standard— are translated into reality by a sympathetic council and a sympathetic enterprise company, both supported adequately by this Administration.

I hope that we will hear an enthusiastic message from Alasdair today. He will be very welcome in Cowal again and I shall welcome him into my own house—that was not a bribe—as long as he has something to offer to the community, which feels in crisis, wants assistance and has a community newspaper that is pushing the issue. We can solve the problem, but we can only do so together. We must recognise the problem that exists.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:11.3734189+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706139", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Wednesday 1 September 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26720, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26720, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 2.0, "ContributionID": 706139, "EditedText": "THE PRESIDING OFFICER opened the meeting at 14:30", "EditedTextHTML": "[THE PRESIDING OFFICER opened the meeting at 14:30]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.6078156+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706141", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Wednesday 1 September 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26720, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26720, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 5.0, "ContributionID": 706141, "EditedText": "I am happy to inquire into the matter. The medals were apparently ordered before the Parliament came into being and they commemorate the opening ceremony. The Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body is not answerable for them.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am happy to inquire into the matter. The medals were apparently ordered before the Parliament came into being and they commemorate the opening ceremony. The Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body is not answerable for them.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.6078156+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C706144", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Wednesday 1 September 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26720, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26720, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 11.0, "ContributionID": 706144, "EditedText": "On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I would like some guidance on the Scotland Act 1998. I think that I am right in saying that, under the Scotland Act 1998, the Scottish Executive has no power to surrender its authority to the UK Government departments in London to draft concordats between the Government at Westminster and the Scottish Parliament covering such critical issues as inward investment. As no such legislative authority exists, is it the case that the Scottish Executive cannot agree to such concordats without the explicit approval of this Parliament? Will you confirm that this Parliament has the legal right to reject or amend any such concordats?", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I would like some guidance on the Scotland Act 1998. I think that I am right in saying that, under the Scotland Act 1998, the Scottish Executive has no power to surrender its authority to the UK Government departments in London to draft concordats between the Government at Westminster and the Scottish Parliament covering such critical issues as inward investment.

As no such legislative authority exists, is it the case that the Scottish Executive cannot agree to such concordats without the explicit approval of this Parliament? Will you confirm that this Parliament has the legal right to reject or amend any such concordats?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.6078156+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706148", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26721, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 19.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 19.0, "ID": 26721, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 20.0, "ContributionID": 706148, "EditedText": "We come now to the first item of business, the business motion. I call Tom McCabe.", "EditedTextHTML": "We come now to the first item of business, the business motion. I call Tom McCabe.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.6078156+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706151", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26721, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 19.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 19.0, "ID": 26721, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 27.0, "ContributionID": 706151, "EditedText": "Thank you, Mr McCabe. Mr Neil, are you requesting the floor in order to speak against the motion?", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you, Mr McCabe. Mr Neil, are you requesting the floor in order to speak against the motion?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.6078156+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C706154", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26721, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 19.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 19.0, "ID": 26721, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 33.0, "ContributionID": 706154, "EditedText": "There are two points that need clarification. First, the failure to publish the draft concordats received from the UK Government would be a breach of the Executive's own code of practice on access to information. Will the minister therefore confirm that those drafts will be published? Secondly, as the Minister for Parliament, will he confirm that the Scottish Parliament will have the opportunity either to amend or reject any such concordats?", "EditedTextHTML": "There are two points that need clarification. First, the failure to publish the draft concordats received from the UK Government would be a breach of the Executive's own code of practice on access to information. Will the minister therefore confirm that those drafts will be published?

Secondly, as the Minister for Parliament, will he confirm that the Scottish Parliament will have the opportunity either to amend or reject any such concordats?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.6078156+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2228E151P202C706156", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26721, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 19.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 19.0, "ID": 26721, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McCabe, Tom", "ID": 2228, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Tom McCabe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McCabe: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 37.0, "ContributionID": 706156, "EditedText": "No, Sir David, I do not think that it is in any way connected to the business motion that I have just moved. I would appreciate it if you would rule on that matter.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, Sir David, I do not think that it is in any way connected to the business motion that I have just moved. I would appreciate it if you would rule on that matter.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.6078156+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706157", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26721, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 19.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 19.0, "ID": 26721, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 39.0, "ContributionID": 706157, "EditedText": "I have ruled.In that case we put the motion as moved by Mr McCabe.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have ruled.

In that case we put the motion as moved by Mr McCabe.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.6078156+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706159", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26721, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 19.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 19.0, "ID": 26721, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 43.0, "ContributionID": 706159, "EditedText": "I suggest that you lodge a question, Mr Neil. The question is, that motion S1M-113, in the name of Tom McCabe, be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "I suggest that you lodge a question, Mr Neil.

The question is, that motion S1M-113, in the name of Tom McCabe, be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.6078156+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C706162", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Continental Tyres", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26722, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 46.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 46.0, "ID": 26722, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning (Henry McLeish): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 50.0, "ContributionID": 706162, "EditedText": "I am glad that I was spared the technological exercise that Tom had. I was a bit apprehensive about touching the movable podium that has now arrived in front of me. With your permission, Sir David, I would like to make a statement on Continental Tyres. On 18 August, Continental Tyres announced the closure of its Newbridge plant with the loss of 774 jobs. I do not have to tell anyone in the chamber of the devastating impact that that news had on the individual workers involved, especially after their efforts over the past couple of years to ensure the viability of the plant. Local managers and the work force had implemented a new shift pattern, and had also increased their working week from 39 hours to 42 hours without any financial recompense. Despite all that, the company decided to announce the closure—a commercial decision that was based on a number of factors. The Newbridge plant had been losing money over a number of years. Continental's share of the market for the tyres that are produced at Newbridge has fallen significantly and shows no signs of recovery. The company's restructuring strategy includes large, low-cost, high-value production facilities in eastern Europe, Mexico and other locations worldwide. None of those reasons, of course, brings any comfort to the people that are affected by them. The Government and its officials have been in close touch with the company—here and in Germany—for a number of years, offering advice and assistance. The Newbridge plant is not in an assisted area; nevertheless, when the plant brought in a new shift to improve production levels, and therefore viability, Lothian and Edinburgh Enterprise Ltd was able to offer assistance with the training of new workers who were recruited to meet the demands of the new shift patterns. Officials from the Scottish Office, Locate in Scotland and LEEL were able to offer advice about how the company could maximise the amount of training assistance that could be offered. The company was also aware of the support that the Government could make available for restructuring or relocation. However, it is not the job of Government to tell companies how to run their business. If, like Continental, they feel that they do not want to invest further, unfortunately we cannot force them to. As members will be aware, I was in touch with the company before and after the announcement of the decision to close the plant. As soon as I knew of the company's intention, I immediately set in motion the actions that were needed to ensure that the Continental work force would have the advice and assistance that they would need to ensure that they would find suitable alternative employment. We set up an action team, including representatives from the Continental work force, local and regional trade unions, LEEL officials and local MSP Margaret Smith. I am pleased to say that that team—chaired by my colleague Nicol Stephen, who is the Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning—had its first meeting at the company premises within two days of the closure announcement. The action team has since met again and has put in place a number of initiatives to assist the work force. Those initiatives include providing a work force profile and skills analysis, and providing an on-site opportunities shop offering help and advice on, for example, training, Jobsearch, welfare and benefits, business start-ups, information technology training, finance and investment, debt counselling and interview skills. It is our hope that this team will be as effective as the team that supported Mitsubishi employees in the wake of the closure of the Haddington plant. To date, only 18 of the 505 people who were made redundant are still seeking employment. My colleague Nicol Stephen has been in close contact with Continental's management here in Scotland, and he travelled to Hanover on Monday for an early-morning meeting with senior Continental representatives to clarify the company's future intentions. He also emphasised the importance that we place both on the settlement package for the work force and on full co-operation with the action team in terms of retraining for new employment. At the meeting, we urged the company to provide the employees with the most generous redundancy package possible. In addition, senior management at the company responded very positively to Nicol Stephen's suggestion that they visit Scotland, in person, to meet the action team. They are currently discussing how and when to do that. The future use of the Newbridge site was also discussed at the meeting, and Locate in Scotland will continue to pursue that with Continental. In the meantime, the company agreed to my suggestion that an economic and financial appraisal should be carried out to help establish future options for the site. This will be done as soon as possible. All members will acknowledge the impact of Continental's decision to close its plant at Newbridge. This is a hard time for those involved and for their families, and the Scottish Executive will continue to do everything it can to help them now and in the future.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am glad that I was spared the technological exercise that Tom had. I was a bit apprehensive about touching the movable podium that has now arrived in front of me.

With your permission, Sir David, I would like to make a statement on Continental Tyres. On 18 August, Continental Tyres announced the closure of its Newbridge plant with the loss of 774 jobs. I do not have to tell anyone in the chamber of the devastating impact that that news had on the individual workers involved, especially after their efforts over the past couple of years to ensure the viability of the plant. Local managers and the work force had implemented a new shift pattern, and had also increased their working week from 39 hours to 42 hours without any financial recompense.

Despite all that, the company decided to announce the closure—a commercial decision that was based on a number of factors. The Newbridge plant had been losing money over a number of years. Continental's share of the market for the tyres that are produced at Newbridge has fallen significantly and shows no signs of recovery. The company's restructuring strategy includes large, low-cost, high-value production facilities in eastern Europe, Mexico and other locations worldwide. None of those reasons, of course, brings any comfort to the people that are affected by them.

The Government and its officials have been in close touch with the company—here and in Germany—for a number of years, offering advice and assistance. The Newbridge plant is not in an assisted area; nevertheless, when the plant brought in a new shift to improve production levels, and therefore viability, Lothian and Edinburgh Enterprise Ltd was able to offer assistance with the training of new workers who were recruited to meet the demands of the new shift patterns.

Officials from the Scottish Office, Locate in Scotland and LEEL were able to offer advice

about how the company could maximise the amount of training assistance that could be offered. The company was also aware of the support that the Government could make available for restructuring or relocation. However, it is not the job of Government to tell companies how to run their business. If, like Continental, they feel that they do not want to invest further, unfortunately we cannot force them to.

As members will be aware, I was in touch with the company before and after the announcement of the decision to close the plant. As soon as I knew of the company's intention, I immediately set in motion the actions that were needed to ensure that the Continental work force would have the advice and assistance that they would need to ensure that they would find suitable alternative employment. We set up an action team, including representatives from the Continental work force, local and regional trade unions, LEEL officials and local MSP Margaret Smith. I am pleased to say that that team—chaired by my colleague Nicol Stephen, who is the Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning—had its first meeting at the company premises within two days of the closure announcement.

The action team has since met again and has put in place a number of initiatives to assist the work force. Those initiatives include providing a work force profile and skills analysis, and providing an on-site opportunities shop offering help and advice on, for example, training, Jobsearch, welfare and benefits, business start-ups, information technology training, finance and investment, debt counselling and interview skills.

It is our hope that this team will be as effective as the team that supported Mitsubishi employees in the wake of the closure of the Haddington plant. To date, only 18 of the 505 people who were made redundant are still seeking employment.

My colleague Nicol Stephen has been in close contact with Continental's management here in Scotland, and he travelled to Hanover on Monday for an early-morning meeting with senior Continental representatives to clarify the company's future intentions. He also emphasised the importance that we place both on the settlement package for the work force and on full co-operation with the action team in terms of retraining for new employment.

At the meeting, we urged the company to provide the employees with the most generous redundancy package possible. In addition, senior management at the company responded very positively to Nicol Stephen's suggestion that they visit Scotland, in person, to meet the action team. They are currently discussing how and when to do that.

The future use of the Newbridge site was also discussed at the meeting, and Locate in Scotland will continue to pursue that with Continental. In the meantime, the company agreed to my suggestion that an economic and financial appraisal should be carried out to help establish future options for the site. This will be done as soon as possible.

All members will acknowledge the impact of Continental's decision to close its plant at Newbridge. This is a hard time for those involved and for their families, and the Scottish Executive will continue to do everything it can to help them now and in the future.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.6078156+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C706165", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Continental Tyres", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26722, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 46.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 46.0, "ID": 26722, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Annabel Goldie (West of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 56.0, "ContributionID": 706165, "EditedText": "On behalf of the Conservative group within the Parliament, I want to express our deep sorrow to the work force and to share the sentiments that have been articulated. We hope that the workers will find a secure future through the assistance of the action team and that they know that the Parliament supports them by trying to secure some way forward for them. I would be grateful for the minister's comments on two areas that are a cause of concern. We, and the work force, will want to be reassured that the action team is not a seven-day wonder. Can the minister confirm that he intends to report to the chamber on the action team's progress? We all have a profound interest in what is happening at Newbridge and would like to kept informed of what progress has been made. Secondly, I accept in good faith what the minister has said in his statement about the company and other interested parties having a collective will to introduce counselling and retraining programmes. However, it is vital that such a help package is conducted on a one-to-one basis with the employees. I would welcome the minister's clarification of those aspects.", "EditedTextHTML": "On behalf of the Conservative group within the Parliament, I want to express our deep sorrow to the work force and to share the sentiments that have been articulated. We hope that the workers will find a secure future through the assistance of the action team and that they know that the

Parliament supports them by trying to secure some way forward for them.

I would be grateful for the minister's comments on two areas that are a cause of concern. We, and the work force, will want to be reassured that the action team is not a seven-day wonder. Can the minister confirm that he intends to report to the chamber on the action team's progress? We all have a profound interest in what is happening at Newbridge and would like to kept informed of what progress has been made.

Secondly, I accept in good faith what the minister has said in his statement about the company and other interested parties having a collective will to introduce counselling and retraining programmes. However, it is vital that such a help package is conducted on a one-to-one basis with the employees. I would welcome the minister's clarification of those aspects.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.6078156+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706172", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Continental Tyres", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26722, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 46.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 46.0, "ID": 26722, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 70.0, "ContributionID": 706172, "EditedText": "You must ask a question, Mr Sheridan.", "EditedTextHTML": "You must ask a question, Mr Sheridan.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.6078156+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C706173", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Continental Tyres", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26722, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 46.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 46.0, "ID": 26722, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 72.0, "ContributionID": 706173, "EditedText": "Will the minister consider the point that this is not a natural disaster, but a man- made disaster or, more appropriately, a multinational-made disaster? Does the minister agree that there is clear evidence that Continental ran down the Newbridge operation over the past three years and that members of the work force— despite their being prepared to jump through hoops in terms of partnership and flexibility—have been severely let down by Continental? This is not about loss of market; it is about cheap labour being available in other parts of Europe. Obviously, the Continental plan is to close down in Newbridge and open up in Romania in order to exploit cheap labour. Does the minister also agree that it is essential that the fullest provisions of the Scotland Act 1998 are brought to bear in terms of the redundancy question? Margaret Smith made the point about the offer that was made to the Irish workers in 1997. I remind the minister that that offer—", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister consider the point that this is not a natural disaster, but a man- made disaster or, more appropriately, a multinational-made disaster? Does the minister agree that there is clear evidence that Continental ran down the Newbridge operation over the past three years and that members of the work force— despite their being prepared to jump through hoops in terms of partnership and flexibility—have been severely let down by Continental? This is not about loss of market; it is about cheap labour being available in other parts of Europe. Obviously, the Continental plan is to close down in Newbridge and open up in Romania in order to exploit cheap labour.

Does the minister also agree that it is essential that the fullest provisions of the Scotland Act 1998 are brought to bear in terms of the redundancy question? Margaret Smith made the point about the offer that was made to the Irish workers in 1997. I remind the minister that that offer—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.6078156+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706174", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Continental Tyres", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26722, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 46.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 46.0, "ID": 26722, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 74.0, "ContributionID": 706174, "EditedText": "Mr Sheridan, you must ask a question.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Sheridan, you must ask a question.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.6078156+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C706176", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Continental Tyres", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26722, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 46.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 46.0, "ID": 26722, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 78.0, "ContributionID": 706176, "EditedText": "What is important is the working relationship that exists between the various members of the action team, the Executive, local MSPs and the trade unions. I take it that the Parliament respects the views of the trade unions and of the full-time trade union officials on what we need to do to progress the matter. It will not be helpful if the chamber decides to raise expectations on any particular front; that is not the way in which we should approach a very serious situation. We have already given an assurance that we want the best package to evolve from the current discussions. We are committed to that, the Parliament is committed to that and we will see what can be achieved. We also want to progress the constructive developments within the plant so that people who have the skills can move on to work. That is the best strategy and the one that we should support.", "EditedTextHTML": "What is important is the working relationship that exists between the various members of the action team, the Executive, local MSPs and the trade unions. I take it that the Parliament respects the views of the trade unions and of the full-time trade union officials on what we need to do to progress the matter. It will not be helpful if the chamber decides to raise expectations on any particular front; that is not the way in which we should approach a very serious situation.

We have already given an assurance that we want the best package to evolve from the current discussions. We are committed to that, the Parliament is committed to that and we will see what can be achieved. We also want to progress the constructive developments within the plant so that people who have the skills can move on to work. That is the best strategy and the one that we should support.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.6078156+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2152E53P75C706181", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Continental Tyres", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26722, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 46.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 46.0, "ID": 26722, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnston, Nick", "ID": 2152, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nick Johnston", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Nick Johnston (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 88.0, "ContributionID": 706181, "EditedText": "I endorse the comments of my colleagues on the dreadful job losses at Newbridge. In my previous life, I was a major employer in the Newbridge area, employing 70 people there. I know the area and the people well. In a spirit of co-operation with Mr McLeish—", "EditedTextHTML": "I endorse the comments of my colleagues on the dreadful job losses at Newbridge. In my previous life, I was a major employer in the Newbridge area, employing 70 people there. I know the area and the people well. In a spirit of co-operation with Mr McLeish—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.6234468+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C706184", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Continental Tyres", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26722, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 46.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 46.0, "ID": 26722, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 94.0, "ContributionID": 706184, "EditedText": "I am grateful for Mr Johnston's constructive comments. I have no jurisdiction over planners anywhere, although I have to confess that, with a degree in urban planning, I am one of the people whom he may be criticising. However, suffice it to say that planning is a matter for the Minister for Communities. On a serious point, we have asked for an economic, technical and financial appraisal of the area. It is crucial that we reach the point where we can look at a future for this strategic site. We will want to discuss that future with everyone in the area, including the CAA and the complexes that have been developed by the City of Edinburgh Council, West Lothian Council and others. This is a genuine team effort and the spirit of Mr Johnston's question suggests that we can make progress if we all work together.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful for Mr Johnston's constructive comments. I have no jurisdiction over planners anywhere, although I have to confess that, with a degree in urban planning, I am one of the people whom he may be criticising. However, suffice it to say that planning is a matter for the Minister for Communities.

On a serious point, we have asked for an economic, technical and financial appraisal of the area. It is crucial that we reach the point where we can look at a future for this strategic site. We will want to discuss that future with everyone in the area, including the CAA and the complexes that have been developed by the City of Edinburgh Council, West Lothian Council and others. This is a genuine team effort and the spirit of Mr Johnston's question suggests that we can make progress if we all work together.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.6234468+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1870E181P475C706243", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Public Health", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26723, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 102.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 102.0, "ID": 26723, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robison, Shona", "ID": 1870, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Shona Robison", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Shona Robison (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 222.0, "ContributionID": 706243, "EditedText": "There is nothing in what Susan Deacon said that any reasonable person could disagree with. Everyone wants to improve public health in Scotland. In \"Towards a Healthier Scotland\" we read about improving life circumstances and tackling inequalities in health. Stress is laid on working in partnership and the development of plans and projects is a key part of the health strategy. That is all good stuff, but at that point I begin to have a bit of a problem. Susan Deacon was keen to tell us the good news, but did not mention the other side, which is not such good news. She talked about partnership and about working closely with the Health Education Board for Scotland, but HEBS funding has been cut by £400,000. I fail to see how that would improve partnership working. In addition, Government support for local council spending is £1.3 billion less in the first three years of the Labour Government than it was in the last three years under the Tories. That has meant a slashing of local authority budgets. It means that many of the socially excluded communities that ministers are so fond of referring to and of visiting have experienced savage cuts in many of the services and projects that are important in tackling public health problems. Public health problems can be tackled best at community level using the services and projects there, but the cuts have resulted in a loss of services to the neediest people in society. I will give some examples. The Whitfield Health and Information Project in Dundee closed last year when its funding ended. That project provided advice on sex education, teenage pregnancies and diet and nutrition, among other things—the very areas where we want improvement. The Glasgow North Community Health Project has suffered a cut of £15,000 to its budget. That has reduced its ability to carry out much needed work in one of Scotland's most deprived areas. It does not stop there. The threat to projects continues to this day. The funding of the Incite drugs project in Aberdeen ended in July. Only through public appeal has that project managed to continue. With only one of the three funding partners having agreed to future funding, the project is under serious threat, yet it is involved in important drug abuse prevention work and peer education with young people. It is the very type of project that we want to tackle public health problems. This is not intended to be partisan. In a previous life, many members from other parties have been involved in working on such projects in very deprived communities. They know as well as I do that there has been cut after cut to the examples of good practice that Des McNulty mentioned. The minister has to take on board the fact that we must secure those projects. I want to mention several other points that the minister might want to pick up on. Will she make a statement about the important issue of the shortage of vaccines, which is a matter of concern for many doctors? I implore her to examine discrimination in health service delivery. Several organisations have raised, through the Equal Opportunities Committee, the issue of the lack of interpreting and translating services. For someone whose first language is not English, it is difficult to communicate important health information that will help towards a diagnosis, or to understand a diagnosis when it is given; and it is stressful for both people and doctors when patients do not fully understand the information that they are given. The problem needs to be addressed and I hope that the minister will investigate the matter.", "EditedTextHTML": "There is nothing in what Susan Deacon said that any reasonable person could disagree with. Everyone wants to improve public health in Scotland. In \"Towards a Healthier Scotland\" we read about improving life circumstances and

tackling inequalities in health. Stress is laid on working in partnership and the development of plans and projects is a key part of the health strategy.

That is all good stuff, but at that point I begin to have a bit of a problem. Susan Deacon was keen to tell us the good news, but did not mention the other side, which is not such good news. She talked about partnership and about working closely with the Health Education Board for Scotland, but HEBS funding has been cut by £400,000. I fail to see how that would improve partnership working.

In addition, Government support for local council spending is £1.3 billion less in the first three years of the Labour Government than it was in the last three years under the Tories. That has meant a slashing of local authority budgets. It means that many of the socially excluded communities that ministers are so fond of referring to and of visiting have experienced savage cuts in many of the services and projects that are important in tackling public health problems.

Public health problems can be tackled best at community level using the services and projects there, but the cuts have resulted in a loss of services to the neediest people in society. I will give some examples.

The Whitfield Health and Information Project in Dundee closed last year when its funding ended. That project provided advice on sex education, teenage pregnancies and diet and nutrition, among other things—the very areas where we want improvement. The Glasgow North Community Health Project has suffered a cut of £15,000 to its budget. That has reduced its ability to carry out much needed work in one of Scotland's most deprived areas.

It does not stop there. The threat to projects continues to this day. The funding of the Incite drugs project in Aberdeen ended in July. Only through public appeal has that project managed to continue. With only one of the three funding partners having agreed to future funding, the project is under serious threat, yet it is involved in important drug abuse prevention work and peer education with young people. It is the very type of project that we want to tackle public health problems.

This is not intended to be partisan. In a previous life, many members from other parties have been involved in working on such projects in very deprived communities. They know as well as I do that there has been cut after cut to the examples of good practice that Des McNulty mentioned. The minister has to take on board the fact that we must secure those projects.

I want to mention several other points that the minister might want to pick up on. Will she make a statement about the important issue of the shortage of vaccines, which is a matter of concern for many doctors? I implore her to examine discrimination in health service delivery. Several organisations have raised, through the Equal Opportunities Committee, the issue of the lack of interpreting and translating services. For someone whose first language is not English, it is difficult to communicate important health information that will help towards a diagnosis, or to understand a diagnosis when it is given; and it is stressful for both people and doctors when patients do not fully understand the information that they are given. The problem needs to be addressed and I hope that the minister will investigate the matter.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:00:18.3299743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C706318", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Cowal", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26726, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 334.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 334.0, "ID": 26726, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fergus Ewing (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 373.0, "ContributionID": 706318, "EditedText": "Will Mr Lyon give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr Lyon give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:00:18.3299743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C706324", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 01 Sep 1999", "ID": 4173 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "End": "1999-09-01T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Cowal", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26726, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 334.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 334.0, "ID": 26726, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fergus Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 387.0, "ContributionID": 706324, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:00:18.3299743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2180E179P471C705942", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lochhead, Richard", "ID": 2180, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Lochhead", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Richard Lochhead (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 226.0, "ContributionID": 705942, "EditedText": "In her opening remarks, the minister stated that local government should take its rightful place in the new Scotland. Will she respond to my suggestion that that includes bringing Scotland's water authorities back under local government control? I draw the minister's attention to the advertisement in today's recruitment pages, through which the Executive wishes to employ directly a water industry commissioner—on a handsome wage of £65,000 a year—to give \"the Scottish Executive independent advice\".I suggest to the minister that this commissioner, if employed directly by the Scottish Ministers, will be likely to let them hear what they want to hear, as they will be the paymasters. Does the minister agree that the Parliament should be responsible for employing the water industry commissioner?", "EditedTextHTML": "In her opening remarks, the minister stated that local government should take its rightful place in the new Scotland. Will she respond to my suggestion that that includes bringing Scotland's water authorities back under local government control? I draw the minister's attention to the advertisement in today's recruitment pages, through which the Executive wishes to employ directly a water industry commissioner—on a handsome wage of £65,000 a year—to give

\"the Scottish Executive independent advice\".

I suggest to the minister that this commissioner, if employed directly by the Scottish Ministers, will be likely to let them hear what they want to hear, as they will be the paymasters. Does the minister agree that the Parliament should be responsible for employing the water industry commissioner?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:01:04.7890265+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C706121", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fish Processing Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26719, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 549.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 549.0, "ID": 26719, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 601.0, "ContributionID": 706121, "EditedText": "If it is a new point that has not been raised already, I have to take it. I know that Mr Lochhead has already made a speech.", "EditedTextHTML": "If it is a new point that has not been raised already, I have to take it. I know that Mr Lochhead has already made a speech.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:05.8270026+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1773E197P503C705980", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hyslop, Fiona", "ID": 1773, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona Hyslop", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona Hyslop (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 308.0, "ContributionID": 705980, "EditedText": "Yesterday was a day to reflect on Scotland and our sense of who we are, from the fine speech made by Donald Dewar to Sheena Wellington's excellent rendition of \"A Man's a Man For a' That\" and Amy Linekar's witty poem. Even last night, Shirley Manson of Garbage got into the spirit of the day when she introduced a song that reflects the Scottish psyche, aptly titled, \"Only Happy When it Rains\". Another sense of Scotland that was reflected yesterday was the intimacy and accessibility of government of all levels. Scotland is a small place. I took time out from the celebrations to speak to Norman Murray, the new president of the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities. He left me in no doubt as to what COSLA wants: an independent review of finance. I pay tribute to the McIntosh commission for its fine work. It should be a matter of great pride to the many hard-working members of the commission that they created the consensus that has emerged in the debate. Nowhere is the consensus greater than on finance. In all the debates before the McIntosh report was published, finance was raised time and again. I have yet to find a local authority politician, officer or user group who does not believe that it is absolutely necessary that local authority finance be subject to an independent review. I regret that McIntosh was not given a brief to examine finance—reading between the lines of the report, I think that the authors agree with me. I regret also that the minister has chosen not to accept the recommendation for a review. If McIntosh is to have any meaning, a review will be necessary sooner rather than later. I do not think that the minister's proposal of \"pressing ahead vigorously with action on a number of fronts\"— however useful that might be—is an adequate response. Our fear is that we are seeing a fudge on finance. We do not want to see tinkering at the edges; we want a full review. Donald Gorrie is right: issues relating to the initiatives are not mutually exclusive of an independent review. We are in an extremely serious situation. Scottish local government has taken a battering in the past decade, from local government reorganisation to huge expenditure cuts. Scotland's local authorities are £968 million worse off after the first three years of the Labour Government than they were under the Tories. We need to consider other reforms in that financial context. Local government has an uncertain financial future. We know that the projections for 2001-02 highlight a potential real- terms shortfall of £170 million in the amount that local government will need to sustain services that it is required to provide. The Executive might be able to address some of those problems in the budget bill—when it arrives—but we still need to highlight them in today's debate.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yesterday was a day to reflect on Scotland and our sense of who we are, from the fine speech made by Donald Dewar to Sheena Wellington's excellent rendition of \"A Man's a Man For a' That\" and Amy Linekar's witty poem. Even last night, Shirley Manson of Garbage got into the spirit of the day when she introduced a song that reflects the Scottish psyche, aptly titled, \"Only Happy When it Rains\".

Another sense of Scotland that was reflected yesterday was the intimacy and accessibility of government of all levels. Scotland is a small place. I took time out from the celebrations to speak to Norman Murray, the new president of the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities. He left me in no doubt as to what COSLA wants: an independent review of finance.

I pay tribute to the McIntosh commission for its fine work. It should be a matter of great pride to the many hard-working members of the commission that they created the consensus that has emerged in the debate. Nowhere is the consensus greater than on finance. In all the debates before the McIntosh report was published, finance was raised time and again. I have yet to find a local authority politician, officer or user group who does not believe that it is absolutely necessary that local authority finance be subject to an independent review. I regret that McIntosh was not given a brief to examine finance—reading between the lines of the report, I think that the authors agree with me.

I regret also that the minister has chosen not to accept the recommendation for a review. If McIntosh is to have any meaning, a review will be necessary sooner rather than later. I do not think that the minister's proposal of

\"pressing ahead vigorously with action on a number of fronts\"— however useful that might be—is an adequate response. Our fear is that we are seeing a fudge on finance. We do not want to see tinkering at the edges; we want a full review. Donald Gorrie is right: issues relating to the initiatives are not mutually exclusive of an independent review.

We are in an extremely serious situation. Scottish local government has taken a battering in the past decade, from local government reorganisation to huge expenditure cuts. Scotland's local authorities are £968 million worse off after the first three years of the Labour Government than they were under the Tories.

We need to consider other reforms in that financial context. Local government has an uncertain financial future. We know that the projections for 2001-02 highlight a potential real- terms shortfall of £170 million in the amount that local government will need to sustain services that it is required to provide.

The Executive might be able to address some of those problems in the budget bill—when it arrives—but we still need to highlight them in today's debate.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:00:05.3389306+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1773E197P503C705881", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26692, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26693, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "QuestionHeading": "Housing (Glasgow)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26704, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 89.0, "DisplayOrder": 89.0, "ID": 26704, "ParentID": 26693 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hyslop, Fiona", "ID": 1773, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona Hyslop", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona Hyslop: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 92.0, "ContributionID": 705881, "EditedText": "One of the main concerns of the people of Glasgow and elsewhere about stock transfer and the lack of a timetable is security of tenure. Until this chamber deals with that issue and provides people with security and confidence, it would be unfair to force them to vote in a ballot without knowing what is happening, where it is happening and when legislation on security of tenure will be introduced.", "EditedTextHTML": "One of the main concerns of the people of Glasgow and elsewhere about stock transfer and the lack of a timetable is security of tenure. Until this chamber deals with that issue and provides people with security and confidence, it would be unfair to force them to vote in a ballot without knowing what is happening, where it is happening and when legislation on security of tenure will be introduced.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:01:40.7395022+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C705843", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Friday 2 July 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26691, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26691, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 3.0, "ContributionID": 705843, "EditedText": "Before we begin this morning's proceedings, I am sure that members would want me to take this opportunity to thank everybody who was involved in the organisation and preparation of yesterday's successful opening. Applause. I will be writing to Her Majesty to thank her for the reception last night to which she invited us all. I do not wish to single out anyone, but I express my gratitude to all those involved: the armed forces; the police and the emergency services; the broadcasters; all the contractors and local authorities that assisted; Unique Events for last night's celebrations and the spectacular finale in Princes Street; and, in particular, all our clerks and the parliamentary staff who were involved in weeks of preparation to make yesterday such a success. I remind members who have not yet had the opportunity to sign the first days commemorative edition and to collect their copies that they can do so in my room behind the chair all morning. Finally, I ask members to let their business managers know if they wish to speak in either the debate on the McIntosh committee or the debate on the appointment of the committee of inquiry so that I can assess how much time to allocate for each debate.", "EditedTextHTML": "Before we begin this morning's proceedings, I am sure that members would want me to take this opportunity to thank everybody who was involved in the organisation and preparation of yesterday's successful opening. [Applause.] I will be writing to Her Majesty to thank her for the reception last night to which she invited us all. I do not wish to single out anyone, but I express my gratitude to all those involved: the armed forces; the police and the emergency services; the broadcasters; all the contractors and local authorities that assisted; Unique Events for last night's celebrations and the spectacular finale in Princes Street; and, in particular, all our clerks and the parliamentary staff who were involved in weeks of preparation to make yesterday such a success.

I remind members who have not yet had the opportunity to sign the first days commemorative edition and to collect their copies that they can do so in my room behind the chair all morning.

Finally, I ask members to let their business managers know if they wish to speak in either the debate on the McIntosh committee or the debate on the appointment of the committee of inquiry so that I can assess how much time to allocate for each debate.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2167E79P155C705845", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26692, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26693, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "QuestionHeading": "Rural Schools", "QuestionHeadingID": 26694, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26694, "ParentID": 26693 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Peacock, Peter", "ID": 2167, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Peter Peacock", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Children and Education (Peter Peacock): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 10.0, "ContributionID": 705845, "EditedText": "I have to say that I was in bed before midnight. MEMBERS: \"Ah.\" I thank my colleagues for their warm endorsement of that statement. The £322 million in the excellence fund for schools for the next three years will benefit all communities in Scotland, rural and urban. The grant distribution mechanisms for local authority funding take account of factors that affect council services in rural areas.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have to say that I was in bed before midnight. [MEMBERS: \"Ah.\"] I thank my colleagues for their warm endorsement of that statement.

The £322 million in the excellence fund for schools for the next three years will benefit all communities in Scotland, rural and urban. The grant distribution mechanisms for local authority funding take account of factors that affect council services in rural areas.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1962E35P56C705846", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26692, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26693, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "QuestionHeading": "Rural Schools", "QuestionHeadingID": 26694, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26694, "ParentID": 26693 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mundell, David", "ID": 1962, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Mundell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David Mundell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 12.0, "ContributionID": 705846, "EditedText": "Is the deputy minister aware that Dumfries and Galloway Council faces a bill of £32 million to repair schools, and that one school in particular, my former school Lockerbie Academy, was the subject of an arson attack, which will require the primary school to be rebuilt? Does he agree that neither of those circumstances should be used as a reason to close rural primary schools in that area?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is the deputy minister aware that Dumfries and Galloway Council faces a bill of £32 million to repair schools, and that one school in particular, my former school Lockerbie Academy, was the subject of an arson attack, which will require the primary school to be rebuilt? Does he agree that neither of those circumstances should be used as a reason to close rural primary schools in that area?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C705848", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26692, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26693, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "QuestionHeading": "General Teaching Council", "QuestionHeadingID": 26695, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 16.0, "DisplayOrder": 16.0, "ID": 26695, "ParentID": 26693 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "2. Mr Brian Monteith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 17.0, "ContributionID": 705848, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it intends to make the Deloitte Touche review of the General Teaching Council for Scotland available for consideration by members, and if so, when. (S1O-189)", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it intends to make the Deloitte Touche review of the General Teaching Council for Scotland available for consideration by members, and if so, when. (S1O-189)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C705852", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26692, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26693, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "QuestionHeading": "Criminal Record Certificates", "QuestionHeadingID": 26696, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 25.0, "DisplayOrder": 25.0, "ID": 26696, "ParentID": 26693 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "3. Mr David Davidson (North-East Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 26.0, "ContributionID": 705852, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it intends to implement a charging policy for certificates issued by the police under part V of the Police Act 1997. (S1O-157) The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice (Mr Jim Wallace): It is intended that part V of the Police Act 1997 is to be self-financing. However, we recognise the concerns of the voluntary sector and we are willing to keep the matter under review.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it intends to implement a charging policy for certificates issued by the police under part V of the Police Act 1997. (S1O-157) The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice (Mr Jim Wallace): It is intended that part V of the Police Act 1997 is to be self-financing. However, we recognise the concerns of the voluntary sector and we are willing to keep the matter under review.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C705858", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26692, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26693, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "QuestionHeading": "University Staff", "QuestionHeadingID": 26697, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 32.0, "DisplayOrder": 32.0, "ID": 26697, "ParentID": 26693 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 39.0, "ContributionID": 705858, "EditedText": "It is important to remember that the Dearing committee considered the situation and decided to set up an independent review committee to look at the framework of higher education pay and conditions. That committee—the Bett committee—has not recommended the establishment of a standing pay review body but wants a national council with a Scottish committee. The Government is discussing the Bett committee report; the Parliament will also consider it and a debate on the issue is scheduled. It would be wise to wait for the outcome of those deliberations before making any definitive statements.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is important to remember that the Dearing committee considered the situation and decided to set up an independent review committee to look at the framework of higher education pay and conditions. That committee—the Bett committee—has not recommended the establishment of a standing pay review body but wants a national council with a Scottish committee. The Government is discussing the Bett committee report; the Parliament will also consider it and a debate on the issue is scheduled. It would be wise to wait for the outcome of those deliberations before making any definitive statements.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2185E120P328C705867", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26692, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26693, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "QuestionHeading": "Accident and Emergency (Glasgow)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26700, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 59.0, "DisplayOrder": 59.0, "ID": 26700, "ParentID": 26693 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Brown, Robert", "ID": 2185, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robert Brown", "SpeakerDisplayName": "7. Robert Brown (Glasgow) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 60.0, "ContributionID": 705867, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what steps it intends to take to address the concerns in the south-east area of greater Glasgow at the proposed concentration of accident and emergency services at the Southern General hospital and the associated run-down of the Victoria infirmary. (S1O-152) The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): Greater Glasgow Health Board has over the past 18 months been engaged in debate with hospital clinicians about the future configuration of acute hospital services in Glasgow. In due course there will be a period of public consultation to allow all interested parties the opportunity to put forward their views. Only when the outcome of the consultation is known will any final decisions be made by the board. The board's proposals will then be submitted for ministerial consideration and approval.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what steps it intends to take to address the concerns in the south-east area of greater Glasgow at the proposed concentration of accident and emergency services at the Southern General hospital and the associated run-down of the Victoria infirmary. (S1O-152) The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): Greater Glasgow Health Board has over the past 18 months been engaged in debate with hospital clinicians about the future configuration of acute hospital services in Glasgow. In due course there will be a period of public consultation to allow all interested parties the opportunity to put forward their views. Only when the outcome of the consultation is known will any final decisions be made by the board. The board's proposals will then be submitted for ministerial consideration and approval.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2185E120P328C705868", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26692, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26693, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "QuestionHeading": "Accident and Emergency (Glasgow)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26700, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 59.0, "DisplayOrder": 59.0, "ID": 26700, "ParentID": 26693 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Brown, Robert", "ID": 2185, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robert Brown", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robert Brown: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 62.0, "ContributionID": 705868, "EditedText": "I thank the minister for her answer and for those assurances. Does she accept that the views of the public in south-east Glasgow also need to be taken into account? Does she realise that there is a strong view that movement of services to the Southern General hospital is highly inappropriate for the needs of the south-east? Is she prepared to meet local members and the Greater Glasgow Health Board to consider and cost alternative proposals for the provision of a new southside hospital on a suitable site?", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the minister for her answer and for those assurances. Does she accept that the views of the public in south-east Glasgow also need to be taken into account?

Does she realise that there is a strong view that movement of services to the Southern General hospital is highly inappropriate for the needs of the south-east? Is she prepared to meet local members and the Greater Glasgow Health Board to consider and cost alternative proposals for the provision of a new southside hospital on a suitable site?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1752E75P296C705870", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26692, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26693, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "QuestionHeading": "After-school Clubs", "QuestionHeadingID": 26701, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 66.0, "DisplayOrder": 66.0, "ID": 26701, "ParentID": 26693 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jamieson, Cathy", "ID": 1752, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Cathy Jamieson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "8. Cathy Jamieson (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 67.0, "ContributionID": 705870, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will make a statement on the provision of after-school clubs in Scotland. (S1O127) The Deputy Minister for Children and Education (Peter Peacock): The extension of after-school clubs throughout Scotland is being supported by the excellence fund for schools and the new opportunities fund. Over the next three financial years, more than £50 million will be made available to local authorities.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will make a statement on the provision of after-school clubs in Scotland. (S1O127) The Deputy Minister for Children and Education (Peter Peacock): The extension of after-school clubs throughout Scotland is being supported by the excellence fund for schools and the new opportunities fund. Over the next three financial years, more than £50 million will be made available to local authorities.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1752E75P296C705871", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26692, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26693, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "QuestionHeading": "After-school Clubs", "QuestionHeadingID": 26701, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 66.0, "DisplayOrder": 66.0, "ID": 26701, "ParentID": 26693 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jamieson, Cathy", "ID": 1752, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Cathy Jamieson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Cathy Jamieson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 69.0, "ContributionID": 705871, "EditedText": "That is a very helpful answer. Is the minister aware of the special circumstances of rural communities in Scotland, particularly in areas such as Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley? Will he consider visiting some of the successful projects in that area and consulting people who want to set up similar projects?", "EditedTextHTML": "That is a very helpful answer. Is the minister aware of the special circumstances of rural communities in Scotland, particularly in areas such as Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley? Will he consider visiting some of the successful projects in that area and consulting people who want to set up similar projects?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C705876", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26692, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26693, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "QuestionHeading": "Teachers (IT Training)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26702, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 73.0, "DisplayOrder": 73.0, "ID": 26702, "ParentID": 26693 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Galbraith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 80.0, "ContributionID": 705876, "EditedText": "We are all on a learning curve with computers, including myself—Laughter. Surely not, they say, but I am afraid so. However, computers are important and one of my aims for the teaching profession is to enhance teachers' general training, professionalism and continued professional development. From here on in, I intend to take that work forward on computers and on a range of other issues.", "EditedTextHTML": "We are all on a learning curve with computers, including myself—[Laughter.] Surely not, they say, but I am afraid so. However, computers are important and one of my aims for the teaching profession is to enhance teachers' general training, professionalism and continued professional development. From here on in, I intend to take that work forward on computers and on a range of other issues.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C705882", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26692, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26693, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "QuestionHeading": "Housing (Glasgow)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26704, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 89.0, "DisplayOrder": 89.0, "ID": 26704, "ParentID": 26693 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 94.0, "ContributionID": 705882, "EditedText": "Essentially, I agree wholeheartedly with Fiona Hyslop. We applaud the courage shown by Glasgow in taking forward the proposals. There are critical matters around security of tenure that need to be examined.", "EditedTextHTML": "Essentially, I agree wholeheartedly with Fiona Hyslop. We applaud the courage shown by Glasgow in taking forward the proposals. There are critical matters around security of tenure that need to be examined.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1862E99P179C705884", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26692, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26693, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "QuestionHeading": "Sport", "QuestionHeadingID": 26705, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 96.0, "DisplayOrder": 96.0, "ID": 26705, "ParentID": 26693 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Brankin, Rhona", "ID": 1862, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Midlothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Culture and Sport", "SpeakerName": "Rhona Brankin", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Culture and Sport (Rhona Brankin): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 99.0, "ContributionID": 705884, "EditedText": "The Scottish Sports Council operates a major events programme to assist eligible bodies to attract and stage major events in Scotland. Since its inception in 1996, it has supported 19 events of Commonwealth, European and world level in Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Scottish Sports Council operates a major events programme to assist eligible bodies to attract and stage major events in Scotland. Since its inception in 1996, it has supported 19 events of Commonwealth, European and world level in Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1775E171P452C705885", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26692, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26693, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "QuestionHeading": "Sport", "QuestionHeadingID": 26705, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 96.0, "DisplayOrder": 96.0, "ID": 26705, "ParentID": 26693 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeod, Fiona", "ID": 1775, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona McLeod", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona McLeod: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 101.0, "ContributionID": 705885, "EditedText": "I notice that Ms Brankin made no mention of the Ryder cup. Is she aware of plans to prepare a bid to bring the Ryder cup to Scotland in 2009? That is a long way away, but it gives us time to set up a cross-party working group to support and promote that bid to bring a major supporting event to Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "I notice that Ms Brankin made no mention of the Ryder cup. Is she aware of plans to prepare a bid to bring the Ryder cup to Scotland in 2009? That is a long way away, but it gives us time to set up a cross-party working group to support and promote that bid to bring a

major supporting event to Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2154E194P299C705893", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26692, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26693, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "QuestionHeading": "New Deal", "QuestionHeadingID": 26707, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 116.0, "DisplayOrder": 116.0, "ID": 26707, "ParentID": 26693 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stephen, Nicol", "ID": 2154, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Nicol Stephen", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning (Nicol Stephen): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 119.0, "ContributionID": 705893, "EditedText": "By the end of the new deal's first year, 28,300 young people across Scotland had benefited from the scheme. Of those young people, 14,700 had taken up sustained employment, had gone into full-time education or training or had taken up work experience opportunities.", "EditedTextHTML": "By the end of the new deal's first year, 28,300 young people across Scotland had benefited from the scheme. Of those young people, 14,700 had taken up sustained employment, had gone into full-time education or training or had taken up work experience opportunities.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2154E194P299C705895", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26692, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26693, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "QuestionHeading": "New Deal", "QuestionHeadingID": 26707, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 116.0, "DisplayOrder": 116.0, "ID": 26707, "ParentID": 26693 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stephen, Nicol", "ID": 2154, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Nicol Stephen", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicol Stephen: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 123.0, "ContributionID": 705895, "EditedText": "Although the new deal is a new scheme, everyone will agree that it has had some considerable successes. However, as with any new scheme, it has to be kept under constant review; we will examine Duncan McNeil's suggestion about flexibility. Flexibility is important in many aspects of the new scheme. A Scottish advisory group is considering all aspects of the new deal; it has been concerned specifically with how the new deal can more fully support the most disadvantaged individuals in Scottish society. Many suggestions have been made to the UK Government, which has ultimate responsibility for the scheme. I am sure that the Scottish Executive will listen to suggestions such as those from Duncan McNeil and other MSPs to create flexibility and to improve the scheme.", "EditedTextHTML": "Although the new deal is a new scheme, everyone will agree that it has had some considerable successes. However, as with any new scheme, it has to be kept under constant review; we will examine Duncan McNeil's suggestion about flexibility. Flexibility is important in many aspects of the new scheme. A Scottish advisory group is considering all aspects of the new deal; it has been concerned specifically with how the new deal can more fully support the most disadvantaged individuals in Scottish society. Many suggestions have been made to the UK Government, which has ultimate responsibility for the scheme. I am sure that the Scottish Executive will listen to suggestions such as those from Duncan McNeil and other MSPs to create flexibility and to improve the scheme.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C705897", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26692, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26693, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "QuestionHeading": "Perth College", "QuestionHeadingID": 26708, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 125.0, "DisplayOrder": 125.0, "ID": 26708, "ParentID": 26693 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bruce Crawford: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 128.0, "ContributionID": 705897, "EditedText": "The minister will be aware that Perth College is successful and has responded well to the Government's new proposals to enable wider access, college collaboration and social inclusion. It has also been involved in the University of the Highlands and Islands project and in setting up new outreach learning centres. Its business has grown by about 34 per cent. Does the minister agree that it is difficult for an organisation such as Perth College to square the mantra of education, education, education with the stark reality of cuts in its expenditure? Spending was £5.7 million in 199697 and £5.1 million in 1999-2000. MEMBERS: \"Ask a question.\" It is difficult to keep going and to ask a question when it does not suit the Government.", "EditedTextHTML": "The minister will be aware that Perth College is successful and has responded well to the Government's new proposals to enable wider access, college collaboration and social inclusion. It has also been involved in the University of the Highlands and Islands project and in setting up new outreach learning centres. Its business has grown by about 34 per cent. Does the minister agree that it is difficult for an organisation such as Perth College to square the mantra of education, education, education with the stark reality of cuts in its expenditure? Spending was £5.7 million in 199697 and £5.1 million in 1999-2000. [MEMBERS: \"Ask a question.\"] It is difficult to keep going and to ask a question when it does not suit the Government.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C705904", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26710, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 143.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26711, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 144.0, "QuestionHeading": "Scottish Parliament", "QuestionHeadingID": 26712, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 145.0, "DisplayOrder": 145.0, "ID": 26712, "ParentID": 26711 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "1. Mr Alex Salmond (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 146.0, "ContributionID": 705904, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what measures it intends to take to ensure that the Parliament meets the expectations of the people of Scotland. (S1O-154) The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): Briefly please, First Minister. Laughter.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what measures it intends to take to ensure that the Parliament meets the expectations of the people of Scotland. (S1O-154) The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): Briefly please, First Minister. [Laughter.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C705911", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26710, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 143.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26711, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 144.0, "QuestionHeading": "Scottish Parliament", "QuestionHeadingID": 26712, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 145.0, "DisplayOrder": 145.0, "ID": 26712, "ParentID": 26711 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 160.0, "ContributionID": 705911, "EditedText": "We are all in favour of justice and equity as general propositions. All my knowledge of the affair of the two janitors comes from reading published articles. The case is at present subject to an appeal and, in any decent judicial system, politicians do not go around making denunciatory statements in the middle of process.", "EditedTextHTML": "We are all in favour of justice and equity as general propositions. All my knowledge of the affair of the two janitors comes from reading published articles. The case is at present subject to an appeal and, in any decent judicial system, politicians do not go around making denunciatory statements in the middle of process.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2117E79P104C705913", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26710, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 143.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26711, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 144.0, "QuestionHeading": "Scottish Parliament", "QuestionHeadingID": 26712, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 145.0, "DisplayOrder": 145.0, "ID": 26712, "ParentID": 26711 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macdonald, Lewis", "ID": 2117, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lewis Macdonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Lewis Macdonald (Aberdeen Central) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 164.0, "ContributionID": 705913, "EditedText": "I would like to ask the Scottish Executive what areas of policy it plans to treat cross- departmentally to fulfil its commitment to integrated government.", "EditedTextHTML": "I would like to ask the Scottish Executive what areas of policy it plans to treat cross- departmentally to fulfil its commitment to integrated government.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C705916", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26710, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 143.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26711, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 144.0, "QuestionHeading": "Scottish Parliament", "QuestionHeadingID": 26712, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 145.0, "DisplayOrder": 145.0, "ID": 26712, "ParentID": 26711 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 170.0, "ContributionID": 705916, "EditedText": "Members should not press their buttons before their question is called. Members who wish to ask questions after this should now press their buttons. I will move now to question 2.", "EditedTextHTML": "Members should not press their buttons before their question is called. Members who wish to ask questions after this should now press their buttons. I will move now to question 2.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C705923", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26710, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 143.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26711, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 144.0, "QuestionHeading": "Homeless People", "QuestionHeadingID": 26713, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 172.0, "DisplayOrder": 172.0, "ID": 26713, "ParentID": 26711 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 185.0, "ContributionID": 705923, "EditedText": "That is an area that we will consider. There is increasing consensus that we should move towards common registers and common allocations policies that will allow those sorts of issues to be taken into account.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is an area that we will consider. There is increasing consensus that we should move towards common registers and common allocations policies that will allow those sorts of issues to be taken into account.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2117E79P104C705926", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26710, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 143.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26711, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 144.0, "QuestionHeading": "Integrated Government", "QuestionHeadingID": 26714, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 187.0, "DisplayOrder": 187.0, "ID": 26714, "ParentID": 26711 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macdonald, Lewis", "ID": 2117, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lewis Macdonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Lewis Macdonald: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 192.0, "ContributionID": 705926, "EditedText": "I welcome the First Minister's commitment to those matters and to making the policies work in practice. I commend to him the work that is being done at a local level by the great northern partnership in deprived areas of Aberdeen Central and Aberdeen North. That partnership is developing a cross-cutting approach at local level. Does he agree that tackling urban disadvantage and promoting a policy of social inclusion and regeneration in areas such as Woodside and Tillydrone in Aberdeen not only requires that housing is regenerated, but that GPs are encouraged to move their surgeries into communities? Does he further agree that we should develop a child care strategy that will allow young mothers to work and that we should provide work and training opportunities for young people?", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the First Minister's commitment to those matters and to making the policies work in practice. I commend to him the work that is being done at a local level by the great northern partnership in deprived areas of Aberdeen Central and Aberdeen North. That partnership is developing a cross-cutting approach at local level. Does he agree that tackling urban disadvantage and promoting a policy of social inclusion and regeneration in areas such as Woodside and Tillydrone in Aberdeen not only requires that housing is regenerated, but that GPs are encouraged to move their surgeries into communities? Does he further agree that we should develop a child care strategy that will allow young mothers to work and that we should provide work and training opportunities for young people?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C705929", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26710, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 143.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26711, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 144.0, "QuestionHeading": "Integrated Government", "QuestionHeadingID": 26714, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 187.0, "DisplayOrder": 187.0, "ID": 26714, "ParentID": 26711 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 198.0, "ContributionID": 705929, "EditedText": "I do not dissent; indeed, I positively agree with Keith Raffan's remarks. There are opportunities. However, in the early days we must watch that we do not become over- complex and end up with a multiplicity of committees, each trying to take in someone else's washing. The point of cross-cutting is to simplify and focus on particular issues. That must be the result of any move towards the phenomenon to which he refers. However, if he means that there should be flexibility, I agree entirely.", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not dissent; indeed, I positively agree with Keith Raffan's remarks. There are opportunities. However, in the early days we must watch that we do not become over- complex and end up with a multiplicity of committees, each trying to take in someone else's washing. The point of cross-cutting is to simplify and focus on particular issues. That must be the result of any move towards the phenomenon to which he refers. However, if he means that there should be flexibility, I agree entirely.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C705933", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26710, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 143.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26711, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 144.0, "QuestionHeading": "Integrated Government", "QuestionHeadingID": 26714, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 187.0, "DisplayOrder": 187.0, "ID": 26714, "ParentID": 26711 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 206.0, "ContributionID": 705933, "EditedText": "My first comment is to congratulate Phil Gallie on the consistency of his approach. When he gets something in his mind, he certainly does not forget it in a hurry. It is enormously important to get value for money. That is a recurrent theme of this Administration and will be of all Administrations. However, if Phil Gallie is inviting me to endorse the principle that proper democratic scrutiny should be taken on the cheap, and that we should not get some of the advantages of the constitutional reform that we represent, I disagree with him deeply. Of course there will not be profligacy and it is important, whether it be in local government or central Government, that we get value for money. If we fall down on that, we are clearly open to considerable criticism and our ability to argue the case in other areas is greatly undermined.", "EditedTextHTML": "My first comment is to congratulate Phil Gallie on the consistency of his approach. When he gets something in his mind, he certainly does not forget it in a hurry.

It is enormously important to get value for money. That is a recurrent theme of this Administration and will be of all Administrations. However, if Phil Gallie is inviting me to endorse the principle that proper democratic scrutiny should be taken on the cheap, and that we should not get some of the advantages of the constitutional reform that we represent, I disagree with him deeply.

Of course there will not be profligacy and it is important, whether it be in local government or central Government, that we get value for money. If we fall down on that, we are clearly open to considerable criticism and our ability to argue the case in other areas is greatly undermined.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C705936", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell (South of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 213.0, "ContributionID": 705936, "EditedText": "On a point of order, Mr Presiding Officer. As this is the first day that the Parliament is invested with its powers, I was interested to hear the Minister for Communities talk about a spirit of consultation. Will you rule on the fact that the statement that we are about to hear was given, substantially, to the nation at quarter to 8 this morning on Radio Scotland? That was an hour before the statement was made available to the Opposition who have to comment on it.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order, Mr Presiding Officer. As this is the first day that the Parliament is invested with its powers, I was interested to hear the Minister for Communities talk about a spirit of consultation. Will you rule on the fact that the statement that we are about to hear was given, substantially, to the nation at quarter to 8 this morning on Radio Scotland? That was an hour before the statement was made available to the Opposition who have to comment on it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C705939", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ms Patricia Ferguson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 220.0, "ContributionID": 705939, "EditedText": "A number of members have indicated that they wish to participate in the debate. The minister will now take questions on her statement.", "EditedTextHTML": "A number of members have indicated that they wish to participate in the debate. The minister will now take questions on her statement.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C705938", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Communities (Ms Wendy Alexander): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 218.0, "ContributionID": 705938, "EditedText": "Yesterday marked a renewal of Scottish democracy. It is fitting that our first task with our full powers is to continue that process of renewal by considering our relationship with the other democratically elected tier of government in Scotland—local government. Local government is of crucial importance to every person in Scotland. It provides democratic leadership for cities, towns and communities. I applaud the work undertaken by committed councillors from all parties and recognise the hours that are given up, the service that is offered, the good work that is done and the achievements in building stronger communities. Through the dark times in the 1980s it fell to local government to uphold the values of fairness, justice and opportunity. Those values are close to the heart of many members in this Parliament and we are now charged with upholding them. As we forge a new democracy, we know that our ability to deliver better services to the people of Scotland depends on the dedication of those who provide local services. It is time for a new partnership, not of words, but of actions. Today I want to describe how the Executive will build upon the McIntosh proposals, and indeed go beyond them, to ensure that local government takes its rightful place at the heart of the new Scotland. I want today to pay tribute to the work of Neil McIntosh and his team. The principle underlying their report is parity of esteem: a meeting of equals, with mutual trust and respect on both sides. We will shortly publish a consultation document setting out how the Executive plans to develop the McIntosh recommendations. In the partnership document we promised an immediate programme of change in response to the McIntosh report; we will honour that commitment. I now want to make a number of announcements that will build on the McIntosh recommendations, none of which featured on the radio this morning. McIntosh asked us to consider his recommendations as a package and we have done that. I will start with a matter that the McIntosh report does not deal with directly but which is of much wider importance. The Executive and this Parliament expect the highest standards throughout the public service. We therefore intend to change the previously announced local government ethics bill to a local government and public bodies ethics bill. We will hold further discussions with interested parties over the next few weeks, including discussions on the scope for a statutory code of conduct, and proposals that the new standards commission for Scotland should have powers to investigate issues of probity concerning members of public bodies. Good local government demands good leadership, and as part of our agenda for change I have asked the Deputy Minister for Local Government, Frank McAveety, to establish a new leadership forum, bringing together ministers and all 32 council leaders. The first leadership forum will convene in September, and at that time we will unveil a package of support for member and officer development. In line with our commitment to community planning, I want to consult carefully on the case for a power of general competence. We will consult further on that important issue. The heart of McIntosh is a process of self- renewal for councils, rather than prescribing changes in law. I am happy to endorse that process of self-renewal. We need structures that support change, rather than obstruct it. The current committee system was designed for the 19th century, not the 21st. The public sees delays, bureaucracy and confusion. We welcome McIntosh's recommendation for councils to move towards executive systems that formalise the existing political leaderships. Some councils have already begun to reform in that way. I want all councils to think about following suit. We recognise that no one structure will fit all but, in future, the Scottish public want to know when decisions are taken, how they are taken and who can be called to account for them. However, once again, we want to go further. We want to raise aspirations, set ambitions high and enthuse members and officers, so before setting up the McIntosh panel of advisers on new structures we want to encourage some fresh perspectives from individuals who have led effective reorganisations and cultural change in their own organisations. I am delighted to confirm that the first two champions for change will be Brian Souter and Doug Riley. Other champions of change from the public and voluntary sectors will follow. Modernising structures should be a priority for every council. McIntosh offers a time scale for action, and we accept it. We expect all councils to embrace reform by the end of 2000, and we will take steps to monitor progress and secure results. There are several areas in which I would like the Local Government Committee to inform the process and lead the public debate. I have in mind issues such as the operation of the covenant and the joint conference, the arrangements for local elections and the political restrictions on council officers. The arguments concerning council employees standing for election are complex. No decision has been taken on that matter, but there is evidence that the current arrangements on political restriction are not working: of the 184 appeals since it was introduced, 161 have been upheld. Clearly, there is a case for reform. McIntosh has made significant recommendations in relation to community councils. Again, I accept them all, but I want to go further. As Minister for Communities, I am acutely aware of the need to involve people in decision making. No one has a monopoly on wisdom, so we will cast the net wide. We will include the full range of community organisations, such as tenants groups and housing associations, and make use of new mechanisms, such as citizens' juries. McIntosh also suggested that councils should be elected for a four-year term. I am sympathetic to that case, but the discussion must also address whether those elections should be held midway through the parliamentary session, as McIntosh suggests, or coincide with the Scottish Parliament elections, to reduce voter fatigue and increase turnout. The challenge underlying all of McIntosh's recommendations is how we renew local democracy in Scotland. That can only happen if we make public service more attractive to those who might be attracted to serve in it. That should be the backdrop to the question of electoral reform and the recommendations on proportional representation. The partnership document committed us to progress on electoral reform. McIntosh has argued the case for it. His report asks us to look at the most appropriate voting system for Scottish local government. That we shall do. Today, I am announcing the formation of the working party that McIntosh recommends. It will be cross party, and the chair will be Richard Kerley. The working party will have three crucial tasks. First, it will consider ways in which standing as a councillor can be made more attractive to more people. Secondly, it will advise on the appropriate number of members for each council, taking account of the different characteristics of cities and rural authorities. On electoral reform, it will take into account the criteria that were suggested by McIntosh: proportionality; the councillor-ward link; fair provision for independents; allowance for geographical diversity; and a close fit between council wards and natural communities. Thirdly, the working party will advise on an appropriate system of remuneration for councillors. Because we want to see real leadership properly rewarded, there will be an independent element in the setting of allowances that takes account of the available resources. We will ensure that the working party has access to the widest possible range of expert advice and analysis, and we look forward to receiving its report. Finance was not included in McIntosh's remit, but we take seriously his view that financial matters are a vital part of the agenda for change. Today I simply want to lay out the Executive's general approach; my colleague Jack McConnell will want to consult further over the summer. The central financial challenge for local government is the same as that which faces this Parliament: how do we achieve better government, rather than bigger government? I want to congratulate local government on its recent achievements. Since 1997, average council tax increases have been halved and halved again, to a figure this year of only 2.6 per cent. Best value is now delivering real improvements in services. We recognise that many aspects of the present financial arrangements need to be addressed, and that we can work closely and constructively with local government on that. We intend to respond to McIntosh's call for a review by pressing ahead vigorously with action on a number of fronts. First, the reviews of distribution arrangements that were begun after reorganisation in 1996 are under way in conjunction with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities, and should be completed as soon as is practicable. We are also undertaking a review of the capital finance system, which will continue. Secondly, we are about to embark on a revaluation of business rates. Differences between the commercial property markets of Scotland and England are likely to lead to different rate poundages in the future as at present, even when the intention is to raise identical sums. That being the case, the Executive believes that it would be wrong to create any further turbulence for business by altering the national regime for non- domestic rates at this time. Thirdly, there is a modernising agenda for local government finance. We in Government have ideas, councils have ideas and third parties have ideas. We must examine how local government can benefit from the long-term stability that we have brought to national financing. We must also investigate how we can pool funding streams between central Government, local government and other public agencies, to deliver savings and joined-up government, and look at new ways of drawing in private sector resources. Finally, we must examine whether business improvement districts could promote closer working between councils and the businesses in their area. All that adds up to a serious and heavy agenda for local government finance. We will pursue it vigorously and keep the area under review. In partnership with COSLA, we will progress the priorities that I have outlined. In conclusion, the McIntosh report contains many recommendations. Among them are many things for which local government has lobbied over many years. I have not been able to mention every one of the recommendations, but I can confirm today that the Scottish Executive proposes to accept the overwhelming majority of them. Today is a good day for local government in Scotland. I started by talking about the need for partnership. The partnership will come alive not simply by providing modern services, but when all Scotland's politicians live up to the challenge of co-operating to tackle the root causes of the poverty and social division that scar Scotland. Our challenge as politicians, whether local or national, is to deal with those old problems in new ways. We will look for trust instead of distrust, for mutual respect instead of mutual suspicion, and for partnership instead of conflict. Individuals will not always agree, but will strive in partnership for common goals. What we are proposing today will bring fundamental change to local government across Scotland. I hope that the 1,222 councillors of all parties will join us in renewing local democracy to meet the challenges of the 21st century.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yesterday marked a renewal of Scottish democracy. It is fitting that our first task with our full powers is to continue that process of renewal by considering our relationship with the other democratically elected tier of government in Scotland—local government.

Local government is of crucial importance to every person in Scotland. It provides democratic leadership for cities, towns and communities. I applaud the work undertaken by committed councillors from all parties and recognise the hours that are given up, the service that is offered, the good work that is done and the achievements in building stronger communities.

Through the dark times in the 1980s it fell to local government to uphold the values of fairness, justice and opportunity. Those values are close to the heart of many members in this Parliament and we are now charged with upholding them. As we forge a new democracy, we know that our ability to deliver better services to the people of Scotland depends on the dedication of those who provide local services.

It is time for a new partnership, not of words, but of actions. Today I want to describe how the Executive will build upon the McIntosh proposals, and indeed go beyond them, to ensure that local government takes its rightful place at the heart of the new Scotland.

I want today to pay tribute to the work of Neil McIntosh and his team. The principle underlying their report is parity of esteem: a meeting of equals, with mutual trust and respect on both sides.

We will shortly publish a consultation document setting out how the Executive plans to develop the McIntosh recommendations. In the partnership document we promised an immediate programme of change in response to the McIntosh report; we will honour that commitment.

I now want to make a number of announcements that will build on the McIntosh recommendations, none of which featured on the radio this morning. McIntosh asked us to consider his recommendations as a package and we have done that.

I will start with a matter that the McIntosh report does not deal with directly but which is of much wider importance. The Executive and this Parliament expect the highest standards throughout the public service. We therefore intend to change the previously announced local government ethics bill to a local government and public bodies ethics bill. We will hold further discussions with interested parties over the next few weeks, including discussions on the scope for a statutory code of conduct, and proposals that the new standards commission for Scotland should have powers to investigate issues of probity concerning members of public bodies.

Good local government demands good leadership, and as part of our agenda for change I have asked the Deputy Minister for Local Government, Frank McAveety, to establish a new leadership forum, bringing together ministers and all 32 council leaders. The first leadership forum will convene in September, and at that time we will unveil a package of support for member and officer development.

In line with our commitment to community planning, I want to consult carefully on the case for a power of general competence. We will consult further on that important issue.

The heart of McIntosh is a process of self- renewal for councils, rather than prescribing changes in law. I am happy to endorse that process of self-renewal. We need structures that support change, rather than obstruct it. The current committee system was designed for the 19th century, not the 21st. The public sees delays, bureaucracy and confusion. We welcome McIntosh's recommendation for councils to move towards executive systems that formalise the existing political leaderships. Some councils have already begun to reform in that way. I want all councils to think about following suit. We recognise that no one structure will fit all but, in future, the Scottish public want to know when decisions are taken, how they are taken and who can be called to account for them.

However, once again, we want to go further. We want to raise aspirations, set ambitions high and enthuse members and officers, so before setting up the McIntosh panel of advisers on new structures we want to encourage some fresh perspectives from individuals who have led effective reorganisations and cultural change in their own organisations. I am delighted to confirm that the first two champions for change will be Brian Souter and Doug Riley. Other champions of change from the public and voluntary sectors will follow.

Modernising structures should be a priority for every council. McIntosh offers a time scale for action, and we accept it. We expect all councils to embrace reform by the end of 2000, and we will take steps to monitor progress and secure results.

There are several areas in which I would like the Local Government Committee to inform the process and lead the public debate. I have in mind issues such as the operation of the covenant and the joint conference, the arrangements for local elections and the political restrictions on council officers. The arguments concerning council employees standing for election are complex. No decision has been taken on that matter, but there is evidence that the current arrangements on political restriction are not working: of the 184 appeals since it was introduced, 161 have been upheld. Clearly, there is a case for reform.

McIntosh has made significant recommendations in relation to community councils. Again, I accept them all, but I want to go further. As Minister for Communities, I am acutely aware of the need to involve people in decision making. No one has a monopoly on wisdom, so we will cast the net wide. We will include the full range of community organisations, such as tenants groups and housing associations, and make use of new mechanisms, such as citizens' juries.

McIntosh also suggested that councils should be elected for a four-year term. I am sympathetic to that case, but the discussion must also address whether those elections should be held midway through the parliamentary session, as McIntosh suggests, or coincide with the Scottish Parliament elections, to reduce voter fatigue and increase turnout.

The challenge underlying all of McIntosh's recommendations is how we renew local democracy in Scotland. That can only happen if we make public service more attractive to those who might be attracted to serve in it. That should be the backdrop to the question of electoral reform

and the recommendations on proportional representation.

The partnership document committed us to progress on electoral reform. McIntosh has argued the case for it. His report asks us to look at the most appropriate voting system for Scottish local government. That we shall do. Today, I am announcing the formation of the working party that McIntosh recommends. It will be cross party, and the chair will be Richard Kerley.

The working party will have three crucial tasks. First, it will consider ways in which standing as a councillor can be made more attractive to more people.

Secondly, it will advise on the appropriate number of members for each council, taking account of the different characteristics of cities and rural authorities. On electoral reform, it will take into account the criteria that were suggested by McIntosh: proportionality; the councillor-ward link; fair provision for independents; allowance for geographical diversity; and a close fit between council wards and natural communities.

Thirdly, the working party will advise on an appropriate system of remuneration for councillors. Because we want to see real leadership properly rewarded, there will be an independent element in the setting of allowances that takes account of the available resources.

We will ensure that the working party has access to the widest possible range of expert advice and analysis, and we look forward to receiving its report.

Finance was not included in McIntosh's remit, but we take seriously his view that financial matters are a vital part of the agenda for change. Today I simply want to lay out the Executive's general approach; my colleague Jack McConnell will want to consult further over the summer.

The central financial challenge for local government is the same as that which faces this Parliament: how do we achieve better government, rather than bigger government? I want to congratulate local government on its recent achievements. Since 1997, average council tax increases have been halved and halved again, to a figure this year of only 2.6 per cent. Best value is now delivering real improvements in services.

We recognise that many aspects of the present financial arrangements need to be addressed, and that we can work closely and constructively with local government on that. We intend to respond to McIntosh's call for a review by pressing ahead vigorously with action on a number of fronts.

First, the reviews of distribution arrangements that were begun after reorganisation in 1996 are under way in conjunction with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities, and should be completed as soon as is practicable. We are also undertaking a review of the capital finance system, which will continue.

Secondly, we are about to embark on a revaluation of business rates. Differences between the commercial property markets of Scotland and England are likely to lead to different rate poundages in the future as at present, even when the intention is to raise identical sums. That being the case, the Executive believes that it would be wrong to create any further turbulence for business by altering the national regime for non- domestic rates at this time.

Thirdly, there is a modernising agenda for local government finance. We in Government have ideas, councils have ideas and third parties have ideas. We must examine how local government can benefit from the long-term stability that we have brought to national financing. We must also investigate how we can pool funding streams between central Government, local government and other public agencies, to deliver savings and joined-up government, and look at new ways of drawing in private sector resources. Finally, we must examine whether business improvement districts could promote closer working between councils and the businesses in their area.

All that adds up to a serious and heavy agenda for local government finance. We will pursue it vigorously and keep the area under review. In partnership with COSLA, we will progress the priorities that I have outlined.

In conclusion, the McIntosh report contains many recommendations. Among them are many things for which local government has lobbied over many years. I have not been able to mention every one of the recommendations, but I can confirm today that the Scottish Executive proposes to accept the overwhelming majority of them. Today is a good day for local government in Scotland.

I started by talking about the need for partnership. The partnership will come alive not simply by providing modern services, but when all Scotland's politicians live up to the challenge of co-operating to tackle the root causes of the poverty and social division that scar Scotland.

Our challenge as politicians, whether local or national, is to deal with those old problems in new ways. We will look for trust instead of distrust, for mutual respect instead of mutual suspicion, and for partnership instead of conflict. Individuals will not always agree, but will strive in partnership for common goals.

What we are proposing today will bring fundamental change to local government across Scotland. I hope that the 1,222 councillors of all

parties will join us in renewing local democracy to meet the challenges of the 21st century.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C705944", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie (Lothians) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 230.0, "ContributionID": 705944, "EditedText": "I note that the process of re-writing history continues apace in the Administration. When the minister referred to the dark times in the 1980s, she was obviously referring to the dark times when businesses large and small were being ripped off by Labour- controlled councils—a process that was remedied only by the introduction of the uniform business rate. Will the minister clarify some of her remarks about business rates? She talked about there being no need for further turbulence. Can she categorically advise us whether the Executive will, during this parliamentary session, rule out any abolition of the uniform business rate or any return to local councils of the power to levy a supplementary charge on top of the uniform business rate? The minister will know that that is a matter of great concern to Scotland's business community, and to organisations large and small.", "EditedTextHTML": "I note that the process of re-writing history continues apace in the Administration. When the minister referred to the dark times in the 1980s, she was obviously referring to the dark times when businesses large and small were being ripped off by Labour- controlled councils—a process that was remedied only by the introduction of the uniform business rate.

Will the minister clarify some of her remarks about business rates? She talked about there being no need for further turbulence. Can she categorically advise us whether the Executive will, during this parliamentary session, rule out any abolition of the uniform business rate or any return to local councils of the power to levy a supplementary charge on top of the uniform business rate? The minister will know that that is a matter of great concern to Scotland's business community, and to organisations large and small.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C705945", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 232.0, "ContributionID": 705945, "EditedText": "In my statement, I confirmed that we intend to retain a national non-domestic rating system that will be set annually by the Government.", "EditedTextHTML": "In my statement, I confirmed that we intend to retain a national non-domestic rating system that will be set annually by the Government.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C705946", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 234.0, "ContributionID": 705946, "EditedText": "I call Mr Hugh Henry.", "EditedTextHTML": "I call Mr Hugh Henry.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2029E47P167C705947", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Henry, Hugh", "ID": 2029, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Hugh Henry", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Hugh Henry (Paisley South) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 236.0, "ContributionID": 705947, "EditedText": "I do not have a question.", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not have a question.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2029E47P167C705949", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Henry, Hugh", "ID": 2029, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Hugh Henry", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Hugh Henry: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 240.0, "ContributionID": 705949, "EditedText": "A contribution?", "EditedTextHTML": "A contribution?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C705954", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 250.0, "ContributionID": 705954, "EditedText": "Very much so. As I said, using community councils as the sole forum of interaction with communities does not reflect the diversity within communities throughout Scotland. I am particularly anxious that the Local Government Committee should examine, on an all-party basis, new ways of involving and empowering communities and spread best practice in such areas.", "EditedTextHTML": "Very much so. As I said, using community councils as the sole forum of interaction with communities does not reflect the diversity within communities throughout Scotland. I am particularly anxious that the Local Government

Committee should examine, on an all-party basis, new ways of involving and empowering communities and spread best practice in such areas.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1926E190P479C705973", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Adam, Brian", "ID": 1926, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Adam", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Brian Adam: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 292.0, "ContributionID": 705973, "EditedText": "I thank Mr Davidson for his intervention. I welcome the Conservatives' presence as a reminder to the public of just how bad they were. I will highlight one or two examples from recent council elections. There are real problems in our councils. The situation cannot continue in which, in one local authority, the Labour party had 32 per cent of the vote—less than a third—but won 22 seats and a majority on the council. The Liberal Democrats gained 12 seats from 25 per cent of the vote. The SNP also had 25 per cent of the vote, but gained three seats.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank Mr Davidson for his intervention. I welcome the Conservatives' presence as a reminder to the public of just how bad they were.

I will highlight one or two examples from recent council elections. There are real problems in our councils. The situation cannot continue in which, in one local authority, the Labour party had 32 per cent of the vote—less than a third—but won 22 seats and a majority on the council. The Liberal Democrats gained 12 seats from 25 per cent of the vote. The SNP also had 25 per cent of the vote, but gained three seats.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C705974", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 294.0, "ContributionID": 705974, "EditedText": "Please wind up, Mr Adam.", "EditedTextHTML": "Please wind up, Mr Adam.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "C705961", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 265.0, "ContributionID": 705961, "EditedText": "Aw!", "EditedTextHTML": "Aw!

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2105E44P74C705964", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harding, Mr Keith", "ID": 2105, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Harding", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Keith Harding (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 272.0, "ContributionID": 705964, "EditedText": "I am delighted that we have this opportunity to debate the McIntosh commission report before the summer recess. It has been long awaited and I, too, would like to pay tribute to Neil McIntosh and the other members of the commission who have put so much time and effort into producing the final document. There is no doubt that a review of the relationship between local government and the Scottish Parliament was necessary and that reform of the way our local authorities are run was essential. Too many councils in Scotland have failed their communities. The priority for the Scottish Conservatives is to restore public confidence in our councils by ensuring that they are accountable to their local communities and that they deliver good local services that give value for money. The new Scottish Parliament will clearly change the way in which Scotland is governed. Everyone involved in Scottish politics will have to adapt to that change and local government cannot be exempted from that process. It is important that there is a constructive relationship between the Scottish Parliament and local authorities, but issues such as who controls which functions should not be set in tablets of stone. What matters to the people of Scotland is the quality of the service provided, not who provides it. The emphasis in any reform of local government must be on improving the quality of service to local communities. The proposals to improve the conduct of council business are welcome as a way of speeding up decision making and increasing accountability. The Conservatives believe that cabinet systems could remove the need for the numerous committees that have become a feature of local government. That in turn could well lead to more efficient local government. Directly elected provosts could also increase local accountability and we would encourage that system where there was a local desire for that type of government. Both of those moves would mean that there would be a need for a small number of full-time councillors. The Conservatives see no problem with that as long as it is self-financing and accompanied by a reduction in the total number of councillors. That would mean redefining the role of the other councillors who would act as advocates for their wards and scrutinise the activity of the cabinet through a committee system. That would be an important and challenging role, but a reduction in the number of committees would reduce the time commitment. The advantage of that would be that people from a wider variety of backgrounds would be able to become involved in local government. We are somewhat concerned about any relaxation in the rules governing council employees standing for election. There is a clear conflict of interest in council employees being councillors in the authority where they work. As far as we are concerned, the case for a relaxation of those rules has not been made. There is no doubt of the need to encourage greater interest in local authorities and a higher turnout at local elections. The McIntosh commission has proposed some good ideas to simplify procedures and increase participation in local elections. We also go along with the idea of a four-year term in local government, but elections must be staggered so that they do not coincide with Scottish parliamentary elections. However, we believe that it is vital that the link between a councillor and his or her ward is maintained. We would oppose any reform of the electoral system that breaks that vital link. In the absence of an alternative system that maintains that link, we favour the existing method of voting. On finance, the small proportion of revenue that is raised locally by councils needs to be addressed in any review of local government finance. As we stated in our manifesto, we believe that a parliamentary committee should consider that. However, we do not believe that giving local authorities the power to set business rates is the answer to the problem. The uniform business rate has been of immense benefit to businesses in Scotland and it has created a level playing field in the United Kingdom. Scottish businesses remember only too well the penal rates that they had to pay when local authorities in Scotland controlled the setting of business rates. It put Scotland's businesses at a serious competitive disadvantage compared with their counterparts south of the border. Local authorities in Scotland have a lot of work to do before they are trusted by the business community. All the major business organisations are adamantly opposed to going back to the old system of allowing councils to levy a supplementary rate on top of the UBR. Despite Mr McLetchie's question this morning, the Labour party has failed to rule out giving councils powers to levy a local business rate. I hope that the minister will take this opportunity to do so. The Scottish Conservatives believe that we need to examine ways of increasing the independence of local authorities, which means looking at the functions of our councils. We believe that education should be removed from local authority control and that funding should flow directly to local communities and groups of schools in local authority areas. Schools would then belong to their own communities and reflect the needs and aspirations of those communities. The proportion of revenue raised locally would be increased, thereby increasing accountability to the local electorate. The reassessment of local government's responsibilities should go hand in hand with freeing local authorities from the obligations imposed by central government. We will advocate that approach in the Local Government Committee. We do not believe that decentralisation of power stops at local councils. We want to see real power being devolved to individuals, families and local communities and we welcome the McIntosh commission's proposals for strengthening community councils. Decision making must be devolved to the lowest possible level as a way of strengthening civic society and revitalising communities. We will support any proposals that help to achieve that.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am delighted that we have this opportunity to debate the McIntosh commission report before the summer recess. It has been long awaited and I, too, would like to pay tribute to Neil McIntosh and the other members of the commission who have put so much time and effort into producing the final document.

There is no doubt that a review of the relationship between local government and the Scottish Parliament was necessary and that reform of the way our local authorities are run was essential. Too many councils in Scotland have failed their communities. The priority for the Scottish Conservatives is to restore public confidence in our councils by ensuring that they are accountable to their local communities and that they deliver good local services that give value for money.

The new Scottish Parliament will clearly change the way in which Scotland is governed. Everyone involved in Scottish politics will have to adapt to that change and local government cannot be exempted from that process. It is important that there is a constructive relationship between the Scottish Parliament and local authorities, but issues such as who controls which functions should not be set in tablets of stone. What matters to the people of Scotland is the quality of the service provided, not who provides it.

The emphasis in any reform of local government must be on improving the quality of service to local communities. The proposals to improve the conduct of council business are welcome as a way of speeding up decision making and increasing accountability. The Conservatives believe that cabinet systems could remove the need for the numerous committees that have become a feature of local government. That in turn could well lead to more efficient local government. Directly elected provosts could also increase local accountability and we would encourage that system where there was a local desire for that type of government.

Both of those moves would mean that there would be a need for a small number of full-time councillors. The Conservatives see no problem with that as long as it is self-financing and accompanied by a reduction in the total number of councillors. That would mean redefining the role of the other councillors who would act as advocates for their wards and scrutinise the activity of the cabinet through a committee system. That would be an important and challenging role, but a reduction in the number of committees would reduce the time commitment. The advantage of that would be that people from a wider variety of backgrounds would be able to become involved in local government.

We are somewhat concerned about any relaxation in the rules governing council employees standing for election. There is a clear conflict of interest in council employees being councillors in the authority where they work. As far as we are concerned, the case for a relaxation of those rules has not been made.

There is no doubt of the need to encourage greater interest in local authorities and a higher turnout at local elections. The McIntosh commission has proposed some good ideas to simplify procedures and increase participation in local elections. We also go along with the idea of a four-year term in local government, but elections must be staggered so that they do not coincide with Scottish parliamentary elections.

However, we believe that it is vital that the link between a councillor and his or her ward is maintained. We would oppose any reform of the electoral system that breaks that vital link. In the absence of an alternative system that maintains that link, we favour the existing method of voting.

On finance, the small proportion of revenue that is raised locally by councils needs to be addressed in any review of local government finance. As we stated in our manifesto, we believe that a parliamentary committee should consider that. However, we do not believe that giving local authorities the power to set business rates is the answer to the problem.

The uniform business rate has been of immense benefit to businesses in Scotland and it has created a level playing field in the United Kingdom. Scottish businesses remember only too well the penal rates that they had to pay when local authorities in Scotland controlled the setting of business rates. It put Scotland's businesses at a serious competitive disadvantage compared with their counterparts south of the border.

Local authorities in Scotland have a lot of work to do before they are trusted by the business community. All the major business organisations are adamantly opposed to going back to the old system of allowing councils to levy a supplementary rate on top of the UBR.

Despite Mr McLetchie's question this morning, the Labour party has failed to rule out giving

councils powers to levy a local business rate. I hope that the minister will take this opportunity to do so.

The Scottish Conservatives believe that we need to examine ways of increasing the independence of local authorities, which means looking at the functions of our councils. We believe that education should be removed from local authority control and that funding should flow directly to local communities and groups of schools in local authority areas. Schools would then belong to their own communities and reflect the needs and aspirations of those communities.

The proportion of revenue raised locally would be increased, thereby increasing accountability to the local electorate. The reassessment of local government's responsibilities should go hand in hand with freeing local authorities from the obligations imposed by central government. We will advocate that approach in the Local Government Committee.

We do not believe that decentralisation of power stops at local councils. We want to see real power being devolved to individuals, families and local communities and we welcome the McIntosh commission's proposals for strengthening community councils. Decision making must be devolved to the lowest possible level as a way of strengthening civic society and revitalising communities. We will support any proposals that help to achieve that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C705968", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 281.0, "ContributionID": 705968, "EditedText": "Wind up please, Mr Gorrie.", "EditedTextHTML": "Wind up please, Mr Gorrie.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1926E190P479C705977", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Adam, Brian", "ID": 1926, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Adam", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Brian Adam: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 300.0, "ContributionID": 705977, "EditedText": "I am not whingeing because the SNP did not do well; in the European elections we would have won an additional seat through the first-past-the-post system. We are prepared to accept that, from time to time, PR will not be to our advantage, but consider PR to be the best route. I hope that the minister will indicate whether she is sympathetic to the introduction of PR in local government.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am not whingeing because the SNP did not do well; in the European elections we would have won an additional seat through the first-past-the-post system. We are prepared to accept that, from time to time, PR will not be to our advantage, but consider PR to be the best route. I hope that the minister will indicate whether she is sympathetic to the introduction of PR in local government.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1854E38P164C705979", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Godman, Trish", "ID": 1854, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Renfrewshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Trish Godman", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Trish Godman (West Renfrewshire) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 305.0, "ContributionID": 705979, "EditedText": "I welcome the minister's statement and the debate. I was especially interested in the working group to consider the renewal of democracy, which will, of course, include PR. I look forward to examining the report that Jack McConnell and COSLA will produce. The minister said that the Local Government Committee will consider a range of issues. They will include the relationship between the Parliament and local government, the operation of a covenant, a joint conference and arrangements for local elections. I look forward to scrutinising closely the consultation document that the Executive will eventually present. The first meeting of the Local Government Committee was this week. As convener, I was heartened by the experience of committee members. Some had worked in public service; some had been local councillors; and some, like me, had done both jobs. What was more heartening was their 100 per cent commitment to local government. That is a clear recognition that local government is more important than this Parliament in the daily lives of our constituents, because this Parliament does not deliver services to people directly. That is the remit of local government. The committee's role is wide-ranging: to report on and consider matters relating to local government, the Scottish Administration, and the Executive. At first, second and even third glance, that is an all-embracing remit. The committee, like others, also has the power to legislate. We will use that power sparingly, but—I hope—wisely. The committee's priority is clearly the McIntosh report. I assure councillors and council employees that they need have no fear or anxiety about the committee's deliberations and recommendations on, and criticisms of the report. I hope that the Executive will be reassured by that statement, but I want to make it clear that the committee is not a limb of the Executive; like all other committees, its responsibility is to Parliament and, ultimately, to the people of Scotland. However, we will take cognisance of what the Executive has to say. The committee will seek the widest possible engagement with councillors and officials in the examination of the McIntosh proposals. There will be genuine consultation with community councils, tenants associations, providers and users of services, voluntary organisations and with Neil McIntosh and his colleagues. We know that local councils provide excellent services in our cities, towns and rural areas and that they seek to protect vulnerable people. The McIntosh report is not a vehicle for sucking local authorities' powers into the Parliament. The principle of subsidiarity should be applicable to the relationship between this Parliament, local government and the communities that we seek to serve. However, no institution or organisation should be immune from tough-minded examination or be afraid of change or reform, as long as that change has been based on genuine consultation and fair representation. The committees are independent of other groups, but no doubt many people will lobby us. Perhaps I should declare an interest: I have known Neil McIntosh for many years. He has 100 per cent commitment to public service. I thank him for his report and, like other members of the Local Government Committee, I look forward to scrutinising it thoroughly.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the minister's statement and the debate.

I was especially interested in the working group to consider the renewal of democracy, which will, of course, include PR. I look forward to examining the report that Jack McConnell and COSLA will produce.

The minister said that the Local Government Committee will consider a range of issues. They will include the relationship between the Parliament and local government, the operation of a covenant, a joint conference and arrangements for local elections. I look forward to scrutinising closely the consultation document that the Executive will eventually present.

The first meeting of the Local Government Committee was this week. As convener, I was heartened by the experience of committee members. Some had worked in public service; some had been local councillors; and some, like me, had done both jobs. What was more heartening was their 100 per cent commitment to local government. That is a clear recognition that local government is more important than this Parliament in the daily lives of our constituents, because this Parliament does not deliver services to people directly. That is the remit of local government.

The committee's role is wide-ranging: to report on and consider matters relating to local government, the Scottish Administration, and the Executive. At first, second and even third glance, that is an all-embracing remit. The committee, like others, also has the power to legislate. We will use that power sparingly, but—I hope—wisely.

The committee's priority is clearly the McIntosh report. I assure councillors and council employees that they need have no fear or anxiety about the committee's deliberations and recommendations on, and criticisms of the report.

I hope that the Executive will be reassured by that statement, but I want to make it clear that the committee is not a limb of the Executive; like all other committees, its responsibility is to Parliament and, ultimately, to the people of Scotland. However, we will take cognisance of what the Executive has to say.

The committee will seek the widest possible engagement with councillors and officials in the examination of the McIntosh proposals. There will be genuine consultation with community councils, tenants associations, providers and users of services, voluntary organisations and with Neil McIntosh and his colleagues. We know that local councils provide excellent services in our cities, towns and rural areas and that they seek to protect vulnerable people. The McIntosh report is not a vehicle for sucking local authorities' powers into the Parliament. The principle of subsidiarity should be applicable to the relationship between

this Parliament, local government and the communities that we seek to serve. However, no institution or organisation should be immune from tough-minded examination or be afraid of change or reform, as long as that change has been based on genuine consultation and fair representation.

The committees are independent of other groups, but no doubt many people will lobby us. Perhaps I should declare an interest: I have known Neil McIntosh for many years. He has 100 per cent commitment to public service. I thank him for his report and, like other members of the Local Government Committee, I look forward to scrutinising it thoroughly.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C705984", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bruce Crawford (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 317.0, "ContributionID": 705984, "EditedText": "Will Mr McNulty give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr McNulty give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1970E66P288C705985", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNulty, Des", "ID": 1970, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Clydebank and Milngavie" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Des McNulty", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Des McNulty: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 319.0, "ContributionID": 705985, "EditedText": "However, debate on local government finance has been stymied because, until now, Government has not led the way. It is difficult for individual authorities to agree to pass resources elsewhere. The current system cannot continue if we want to tackle social exclusion as well as ensure the continued delivery of quality local services for everyone in Scotland. Changing the distribution system would be the biggest contribution that the minister could make to addressing the problems of social exclusion.", "EditedTextHTML": "However, debate on local government finance has been stymied because, until now, Government has not led the way. It is difficult for individual authorities to agree to pass resources elsewhere. The current system cannot continue if we want to tackle social exclusion as well as ensure the continued delivery of quality local services for everyone in Scotland. Changing the distribution system would be the biggest contribution that the minister could make to addressing the problems of social exclusion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1970E66P288C705989", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNulty, Des", "ID": 1970, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Clydebank and Milngavie" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Des McNulty", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Des McNulty: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 327.0, "ContributionID": 705989, "EditedText": "I am sorry Kenny, but I do not have time. As part of the reform of local government and the widening of democratic accountability, we need to go beyond what has already been achieved. Finally, I would like to make a few comments on proportional representation.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry Kenny, but I do not have time. As part of the reform of local government and the widening of democratic accountability, we need to go beyond what has already been achieved.

Finally, I would like to make a few comments on proportional representation.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2140E187P335C705992", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Rumbles, Mike", "ID": 2140, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Rumbles", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Mike Rumbles (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 334.0, "ContributionID": 705992, "EditedText": "I firmly welcome the McIntosh report. I will not go over many of the issues that have already been discussed, particularly those raised by my colleague Donald Gorrie, who represented the Liberal Democrat interest. I will focus on just two of the recommendations. The first one that I wish to examine, following on from Des McNulty's speech, is that: \"proportional representation be introduced for local government elections . . . the subject be given immediate and urgent study, with a view to legislation which should take effect in time to govern the next council elections in 2002\". The second recommendation that I will examine is:\"an independent inquiry into local government finance should be instituted immediately.\" I am becoming a little wary of some of the comments that have been made today about proportional representation. I will also quote from the partnership agreement of 13 May, so that we are absolutely clear what we are talking about: \"We will ensure that the publication of the final McIntosh recommendations is followed by an immediate programme of change including progress on electoral reform . . . we will keep under review wider issues of local government finance.\" Donald Gorrie is absolutely right. One can have day-to-day reviews of distribution of local government finance, but that does not stop one putting into place a long-term review, so that the whole issue can be examined. It is fundamentally wrong that 20 per cent of local government income is gained locally and 80 per cent is dependent on sources elsewhere. I am surprised that the Executive seems to take a view of reform except when it comes to monetary issues, and I want to flag that up. We must have an immediate commitment to electoral reform and a long-term review of government finance. Audrey Findlay, the leader of the Liberal Democrat-led Aberdeenshire Council, to whom I have spoken, is firmly of that view. As Brian Adam said, almost all views from local government and COSLA are the same—they want a review, and it is about time that we delivered it.", "EditedTextHTML": "I firmly welcome the McIntosh report. I will not go over many of the issues that have already been discussed, particularly those raised by my colleague Donald Gorrie, who represented the Liberal Democrat interest.

I will focus on just two of the recommendations. The first one that I wish to examine, following on from Des McNulty's speech, is that:

\"proportional representation be introduced for local government elections . . . the subject be given immediate and urgent study, with a view to legislation which should take effect in time to govern the next council elections in 2002\".

The second recommendation that I will examine is:

\"an independent inquiry into local government finance should be instituted immediately.\"

I am becoming a little wary of some of the comments that have been made today about proportional representation. I will also quote from the partnership agreement of 13 May, so that we are absolutely clear what we are talking about:

\"We will ensure that the publication of the final McIntosh recommendations is followed by an immediate programme of change including progress on electoral reform . . . we will keep under review wider issues of local government finance.\"

Donald Gorrie is absolutely right. One can have day-to-day reviews of distribution of local government finance, but that does not stop one

putting into place a long-term review, so that the whole issue can be examined. It is fundamentally wrong that 20 per cent of local government income is gained locally and 80 per cent is dependent on sources elsewhere. I am surprised that the Executive seems to take a view of reform except when it comes to monetary issues, and I want to flag that up.

We must have an immediate commitment to electoral reform and a long-term review of government finance. Audrey Findlay, the leader of the Liberal Democrat-led Aberdeenshire Council, to whom I have spoken, is firmly of that view. As Brian Adam said, almost all views from local government and COSLA are the same—they want a review, and it is about time that we delivered it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2010E221P512C705993", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Paterson, Gil", "ID": 2010, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Gil Paterson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Gil Paterson (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 337.0, "ContributionID": 705993, "EditedText": "I pay tribute to the minister and congratulate her on her statement. It was a wide-ranging statement, and very welcome. Cabinet-style local government—or, to be more accurate, the role of an accountable executive in local government—has been one of the main debates, both pre and post-McIntosh. The functions of these new-style executives and their interrelationship with an elected provost—or mayor, as some Labour members choose to call them—have generated many column inches of copy in our national press. That is one of the issues that interest the public most. Of course, some of the people who are particularly interested are those who have been badly affected by the present system and who may have lobbied a committee or even a full council to find that the decision has already been made. What they see is merely a rubber-stamp exercise. In many ways, local government is very unaccountable. Of course, at election time, we are all accountable, and councillors and councils are accountable. Councillors are, indeed, accountable at surgeries. However, we can all think of examples—and I am sure that most of us have been involved in such situations—of when perhaps a parent comes along who believes that a bad or wrong decision has been made about, say, a local school closure. They go to an education committee where they see no real debate and where a decision is ratified—which was, in fact, taken previously, behind closed doors. After that, what can they do? They can go to the surgery and complain to their councillor. They might be reassured or placated, but they will probably be ignored. I doubt whether they would vote for that councillor again. That would be detrimental to local government, because one such incident might blow an otherwise very good councillor out of the water. In those situations, it is the community that loses out. The difficulty is that councillors have been whipped into line; it is not necessarily the councillor who is wrong, but the system. Is the real reason for voter apathy that the public can no longer influence decisions when the elections are over and so feel powerless? The McIntosh report attempts to address that very problem. Under the McIntosh recommendations, decisions will be open and transparent and people will understand why they have been made. Paragraph 103 on page 28 of the report says: \"Our recommendation to councils is that they should review their own procedures with the principal objective of ensuring that policy proposals and matters for decision by the councils are subject to open debate; and that the council may effectively scrutinise the actions of the leadership and hold it to account for its performance: that is to say that these matters should be debated in public and there should be opportunity for them to be examined and questioned, without unnecessary constraint imposed by a party whip.\" The McIntosh report has kicked the policy of elected provosts into touch. We welcome that very much and I hope that the minister takes it into account. Such a policy goes against the grain of the McIntosh report—God help us if we have a reincarnated Pat Lally in Glasgow. We support the findings of the McIntosh commission and believe that the recommendations will form the basis of the rebirth of local government. However, as other members have said, we must refrain from cherry picking. Kenny Gibson made that important point well. As the McIntosh report comes as a package, let us take it in that way and start building a new local government for Scotland in Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "I pay tribute to the minister and congratulate her on her statement. It was a wide-ranging statement, and very welcome.

Cabinet-style local government—or, to be more accurate, the role of an accountable executive in local government—has been one of the main debates, both pre and post-McIntosh. The functions of these new-style executives and their interrelationship with an elected provost—or mayor, as some Labour members choose to call them—have generated many column inches of copy in our national press. That is one of the issues that interest the public most.

Of course, some of the people who are particularly interested are those who have been badly affected by the present system and who may have lobbied a committee or even a full council to find that the decision has already been made. What they see is merely a rubber-stamp exercise. In many ways, local government is very unaccountable.

Of course, at election time, we are all accountable, and councillors and councils are accountable. Councillors are, indeed, accountable at surgeries. However, we can all think of examples—and I am sure that most of us have been involved in such situations—of when perhaps a parent comes along who believes that a bad or wrong decision has been made about, say, a local school closure. They go to an education committee where they see no real debate and where a decision is ratified—which was, in fact, taken previously, behind closed doors. After that, what can they do? They can go to the surgery and complain to their councillor. They might be reassured or placated, but they will probably be ignored. I doubt whether they would vote for that councillor again. That would be detrimental to local government, because one such incident might blow an otherwise very good councillor out of the water. In those situations, it is the community that loses out.

The difficulty is that councillors have been whipped into line; it is not necessarily the councillor who is wrong, but the system. Is the real reason for voter apathy that the public can no longer influence decisions when the elections are over and so feel powerless? The McIntosh report attempts to address that very problem. Under the McIntosh recommendations, decisions will be open and transparent and people will understand why they have been made. Paragraph 103 on page 28 of the report says:

\"Our recommendation to councils is that they should review their own procedures with the principal objective of ensuring that policy proposals and matters for decision by the councils are subject to open debate; and that the council may effectively scrutinise the actions of the leadership and hold it to account for its performance: that is to say that these matters should be debated in public and there should be opportunity for them to be examined and questioned, without unnecessary constraint imposed by a party whip.\"

The McIntosh report has kicked the policy of elected provosts into touch. We welcome that very much and I hope that the minister takes it into account. Such a policy goes against the grain of the McIntosh report—God help us if we have a reincarnated Pat Lally in Glasgow.

We support the findings of the McIntosh commission and believe that the recommendations will form the basis of the rebirth of local government. However, as other members have said, we must refrain from cherry picking. Kenny Gibson made that important point well. As the McIntosh report comes as a package, let us take it in that way and start building a new local government for Scotland in Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C706001", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan (Glasgow) (SSP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 356.0, "ContributionID": 706001, "EditedText": "It has been with some frustration and anger that I have listened to some of the contributions to the debate—especially the one made by the minister. I have been a serving councillor for the past seven years and I remind the chamber that the background to the McIntosh inquiry has been seven years of the withdrawal of funding, of the undermining of local democracy and of the undermining of authorities' ability to serve their citizens. I remind the minister that—especially in the past three years—my city of Glasgow has been hammered. Glasgow, which is clearly the most poverty-stricken city in Scotland, has suffered budget cuts of £200 million and the loss of 4,000 jobs. Much has been said about the fact that we formally assumed our powers only yesterday but I remind the minister that the Labour Government assumed its powers more than two years ago. In that time, it has done absolutely nothing to address the problems of poverty-stricken areas such as Glasgow. Those areas have faced horrendous cuts as a result of both the withdrawal of central Government support for local authorities and the maintenance of the completely unfair and unworkable local government reorganisation, which especially penalised the City of Glasgow. Why, after two years of the Labour Government, has the capital receipt payback rule not been rescinded? Why, after two years, have the regulations on the retention of rates within the City of Glasgow not been changed? If those regulations were changed, it would allow additional expenditure this year of some £60 million. I am not talking about legislation, which would not be required; we are looking for a change in regulations. It was with a sense of disappointment that I listened to the minister's speech, because although the overriding concern of McIntosh was the modernisation of local authorities—he makes some worthwhile and welcome suggestions about improving their transparency and accountability— he makes the point at the start and end of the report that there should be an independent review of local government finance. This debate is just talk unless there is a review that results in the return of financial powers to local authorities and that improves their ability to deliver services to our pensioners, to our young people and to our disabled. The McIntosh recommendations will not deliver improvements in any of those areas unless there are additional resources to go with them. Will the minister join me in condemning the Labour Government for its failure in the past two years to address the horrendous problems that I have spoken about?", "EditedTextHTML": "It has been with some frustration and anger that I have listened to some of the contributions to the debate—especially the one made by the minister. I have been a serving councillor for the past seven years and I remind the chamber that the background to the McIntosh inquiry has been seven years of the withdrawal of funding, of the undermining of local democracy and of the undermining of authorities' ability to serve their citizens. I remind the minister that—especially in the past three years—my city of Glasgow has been hammered. Glasgow, which is clearly the most poverty-stricken city in Scotland, has suffered budget cuts of £200 million and the loss of 4,000 jobs.

Much has been said about the fact that we formally assumed our powers only yesterday but I remind the minister that the Labour Government assumed its powers more than two years ago. In that time, it has done absolutely nothing to address the problems of poverty-stricken areas such as Glasgow. Those areas have faced horrendous cuts as a result of both the withdrawal of central Government support for local authorities and the maintenance of the completely unfair and unworkable local government reorganisation, which especially penalised the City of Glasgow.

Why, after two years of the Labour Government, has the capital receipt payback rule not been rescinded? Why, after two years, have the regulations on the retention of rates within the City of Glasgow not been changed? If those regulations were changed, it would allow additional expenditure this year of some £60 million. I am not talking about legislation, which would not be required; we are looking for a change in regulations.

It was with a sense of disappointment that I listened to the minister's speech, because although the overriding concern of McIntosh was the modernisation of local authorities—he makes some worthwhile and welcome suggestions about improving their transparency and accountability— he makes the point at the start and end of the report that there should be an independent review of local government finance.

This debate is just talk unless there is a review that results in the return of financial powers to local authorities and that improves their ability to deliver services to our pensioners, to our young people and to our disabled. The McIntosh recommendations will not deliver improvements in any of those areas unless there are additional resources to go with them. Will the minister join me in condemning the Labour Government for its failure in the past two years to address the horrendous problems that I have spoken about?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1807E84P267C706002", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Maclean, Kate", "ID": 1807, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dundee West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kate Maclean", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Kate MacLean (Dundee West) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 359.0, "ContributionID": 706002, "EditedText": "I hope that Tommy Sheridan will forgive me if, like the minister, I do not join him in condemning the Labour Government. I welcome this opportunity to discuss the McIntosh report. I imagine that chapter 4, which contains recommendations about the electoral system, will be the most hotly debated part of the report in this chamber, in council chambers and in the media. Unfortunately, that will probably deflect from some of the other issues that the commission discussed. I say unfortunately, because although PR will exercise the minds of politicians and journalists, I suspect that it is the issue of least interest to the general public. As long as the link is maintained between councillors and the community, people are more concerned about what local government does than about how it is elected. I agree with everything that Des McNulty said about local government finance. After local government reorganisation, Dundee was left in a similar position to that of Glasgow—in terms of poverty indicators and league tables, the two cities vie for first place. That is why I welcome the fact that, although finance was not included in the remit of the McIntosh commission, the commission recognised the importance of the way in which local government was financed and recommended a review, particularly of the distribution formula, which would be welcomed in my area—Dundee City Council has campaigned on that issue for a long time.", "EditedTextHTML": "I hope that Tommy Sheridan will forgive me if, like the minister, I do not join him in condemning the Labour Government.

I welcome this opportunity to discuss the McIntosh report. I imagine that chapter 4, which contains recommendations about the electoral system, will be the most hotly debated part of the report in this chamber, in council chambers and in the media. Unfortunately, that will probably deflect from some of the other issues that the commission discussed. I say unfortunately, because although PR will exercise the minds of politicians and journalists, I suspect that it is the issue of least interest to the general public. As long as the link is maintained between councillors and the community, people are more concerned about what local government does than about how it is elected.

I agree with everything that Des McNulty said about local government finance. After local government reorganisation, Dundee was left in a similar position to that of Glasgow—in terms of poverty indicators and league tables, the two cities vie for first place.

That is why I welcome the fact that, although finance was not included in the remit of the McIntosh commission, the commission recognised the importance of the way in which local government was financed and recommended a review, particularly of the distribution formula, which would be welcomed in my area—Dundee City Council has campaigned on that issue for a long time.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C706003", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bruce Crawford rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 361.0, "ContributionID": 706003, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1807E84P267C706004", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Maclean, Kate", "ID": 1807, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dundee West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kate Maclean", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Kate MacLean: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 363.0, "ContributionID": 706004, "EditedText": "I have limited time, Bruce, so I would rather not give way. Although the McIntosh report covers many important issues, the key section is chapter 6— \"The Voice of the People\". I welcome the recommendations as far as they go but, like Wendy Alexander, I do not think that they go far enough. When community councils operate well— as they do in some parts of Dundee West—they ably articulate the views and concerns of local people. Community councils are not, however, the only representative bodies in communities. In some areas they do not exist or are less relevant than tenants organisations or other local groups. That is particularly so in areas where groups have been brought together to combat poverty and deprivation and to improve and regenerate communities. I hope that ways can be found in which to give representative groups equal status in the democratic process. That is only briefly mentioned—in paragraph 164 in chapter six—and I think that the proposal should be strengthened. Finally, I hope that local government will not be used as a political football in this chamber as it has been in other forums in the past. I was a bit disappointed by Brian Adam's contribution in that respect. People come into contact with local government 24 hours a day from cradle to grave, and the majority of that contact is positive and beneficial. Councils of every political persuasion or none provide excellent services to the people that they represent. I hope that the McIntosh report can be seen as the first step towards strengthening the role of local government and that this Parliament and local government can work in partnership to achieve that aim. There will be no partnership if local government is a subordinate partner, as was seen to be the case in the past. The partnership must be equal and must be built on trust, understanding and common goals.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have limited time, Bruce, so I would rather not give way.

Although the McIntosh report covers many important issues, the key section is chapter 6— \"The Voice of the People\". I welcome the recommendations as far as they go but, like Wendy Alexander, I do not think that they go far enough. When community councils operate well— as they do in some parts of Dundee West—they ably articulate the views and concerns of local people.

Community councils are not, however, the only representative bodies in communities. In some areas they do not exist or are less relevant than tenants organisations or other local groups. That is particularly so in areas where groups have been brought together to combat poverty and deprivation and to improve and regenerate communities. I hope that ways can be found in which to give representative groups equal status in the democratic process. That is only briefly mentioned—in paragraph 164 in chapter six—and I think that the proposal should be strengthened.

Finally, I hope that local government will not be used as a political football in this chamber as it has been in other forums in the past. I was a bit disappointed by Brian Adam's contribution in that respect. People come into contact with local government 24 hours a day from cradle to grave, and the majority of that contact is positive and beneficial. Councils of every political persuasion or none provide excellent services to the people that they represent.

I hope that the McIntosh report can be seen as the first step towards strengthening the role of local government and that this Parliament and local government can work in partnership to achieve that aim. There will be no partnership if local government is a subordinate partner, as was seen to be the case in the past. The partnership must be equal and must be built on trust, understanding and common goals.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2234E7P20C706008", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Aitken, Bill", "ID": 2234, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bill Aitken", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bill Aitken (Glasgow) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 374.0, "ContributionID": 706008, "EditedText": "Local government should be effective, efficient and responsive to local needs. I doubt that any member of this chamber would disagree with that statement. We should be grateful to McIntosh and his colleagues for identifying the way in which local government is falling short of those aims. There is no doubt that, despite the best efforts of many people, local government is falling short of the standards that we would like to impose in partnership with local authorities. We must examine the membership of councils. Members who served with me on City of Glasgow Council will agree that many of the council's members were drawn from the ranks of the unemployed, housewives and people who worked for other local authorities, together with the occasional person who ran their own business. I am not saying for one moment that there is anything wrong with those sections of the community, but they are hardly representative. We must make every effort to make local government more inclusive and to encourage more people to stand. How do we do that? We must examine the way that councils are run. Few can doubt that the present cumbrous and laborious structure of many local authorities is a disincentive for people to enter local government. It is pleasing that the McIntosh commission suggested that the cabinet system might be considered. The report also suggests that the time of the full-time councillor has perhaps come and that the councillor should be remunerated accordingly. Conservative members would argue that that must be self- financing and that it must be achieved by a reduction in the number of councillors. McIntosh identifies the real problem of local government as voter apathy. Why are people not interested in councils? Mike Rumbles put his finger on it when he pointed out—I do not know which local authority he had in mind—that 20 per cent of local government finance is financed by the local authority and the electors in that area. In my experience the proportion is usually much smaller; for example, Glasgow is somewhere in the region of 14 per cent. When there is no pecuniary interest, people are reluctant to involve themselves in the affairs of local authorities, which is bad. Local authorities should be subject to scrutiny and electoral questioning to a much greater extent than they have been up to now. I think Disraeli said:\"The ability to tax and please is a gift not given to man.\"Various experiments have been carried out about how local government finance should be reorganised. None of the experiments have been successful. That brings me to the conclusion that the only solution to that difficulty is to recognise that some of the powers of local government—I know that there will be resistance to this—should be taken from them. Education, which is one of the big spenders, should, possibly, be administered by this Parliament. That would enable local government to look more closely at the powers with which it has been left.", "EditedTextHTML": "Local government should be effective, efficient and responsive to local needs. I doubt that any member of this chamber would disagree with that statement. We should be grateful to McIntosh and his colleagues for identifying the way in which local government is falling short of those aims. There is no doubt that, despite the best efforts of many people, local government is falling short of the standards that we would like to impose in partnership with local authorities.

We must examine the membership of councils. Members who served with me on City of Glasgow Council will agree that many of the council's members were drawn from the ranks of the unemployed, housewives and people who worked for other local authorities, together with the occasional person who ran their own business. I am not saying for one moment that there is anything wrong with those sections of the community, but they are hardly representative. We must make every effort to make local government more inclusive and to encourage more people to stand.

How do we do that? We must examine the way that councils are run. Few can doubt that the present cumbrous and laborious structure of many local authorities is a disincentive for people to enter local government. It is pleasing that the McIntosh commission suggested that the cabinet system might be considered. The report also suggests that the time of the full-time councillor has perhaps come and that the councillor should be remunerated accordingly. Conservative members would argue that that must be self- financing and that it must be achieved by a reduction in the number of councillors.

McIntosh identifies the real problem of local government as voter apathy. Why are people not interested in councils? Mike Rumbles put his finger on it when he pointed out—I do not know which local authority he had in mind—that 20 per cent of local government finance is financed by the local authority and the electors in that area. In my experience the proportion is usually much smaller; for example, Glasgow is somewhere in the region of 14 per cent. When there is no pecuniary interest, people are reluctant to involve themselves in the affairs of local authorities, which is bad. Local authorities should be subject to scrutiny and electoral questioning to a much greater extent than they have been up to now.

I think Disraeli said:

\"The ability to tax and please is a gift not given to man.\"

Various experiments have been carried out about how local government finance should be reorganised. None of the experiments have been successful. That brings me to the conclusion that the only solution to that difficulty is to recognise that some of the powers of local government—I know that there will be resistance to this—should be taken from them. Education, which is one of the big spenders, should, possibly, be administered by this Parliament. That would enable local government to look more closely at the powers with which it has been left.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1996E124P211C706016", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAveety, Mr Frank", "ID": 1996, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Shettleston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Local Government", "SpeakerName": "Frank McAveety", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McAveety: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 392.0, "ContributionID": 706016, "EditedText": "I will give way to Tommy in a minute; I am always delighted to take an intervention that helps me with my own speech. The schools investment strategy and the largest- ever increase in child benefit should be welcomed, but I have yet to hear Mr Sheridan do so in a debate.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will give way to Tommy in a minute; I am always delighted to take an intervention that helps me with my own speech. The schools investment strategy and the largest- ever increase in child benefit should be welcomed, but I have yet to hear Mr Sheridan do so in a debate.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C706015", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 390.0, "ContributionID": 706015, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1996E124P211C706020", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAveety, Mr Frank", "ID": 1996, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Shettleston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Local Government", "SpeakerName": "Frank McAveety", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McAveety: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 400.0, "ContributionID": 706020, "EditedText": "I have told Mr Salmond why it is increasing, in case he was not listening—that is a very common problem of his. The roots of poverty go back much further than two years.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have told Mr Salmond why it is increasing, in case he was not listening—that is a very common problem of his. The roots of poverty go back much further than two years.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C706025", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 410.0, "ContributionID": 706025, "EditedText": "Will Mr McAveety give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr McAveety give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1996E124P211C706026", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAveety, Mr Frank", "ID": 1996, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Shettleston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Local Government", "SpeakerName": "Frank McAveety", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McAveety: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 412.0, "ContributionID": 706026, "EditedText": "I will give way in a moment to Mr Salmond, but I want to continue. We have a key commitment—", "EditedTextHTML": "I will give way in a moment to Mr Salmond, but I want to continue.

We have a key commitment—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C706036", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Student Finance (Committee of Inquiry) ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26716, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 432.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 432.0, "ID": 26716, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 433.0, "ContributionID": 706036, "EditedText": "The next item of business is a debate on motion S1M-82, in the name of Henry McLeish, on the independent committee of inquiry on student finance. I call Mr McLeish to speak briefly on, and move, the motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "The next item of business is a debate on motion S1M-82, in the name of Henry McLeish, on the independent committee of inquiry on student finance. I call Mr McLeish to speak briefly on, and move, the motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C706045", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Student Finance (Committee of Inquiry) ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26716, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 432.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 432.0, "ID": 26716, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Monteith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 454.0, "ContributionID": 706045, "EditedText": "Certainly.", "EditedTextHTML": "Certainly.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C706047", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Student Finance (Committee of Inquiry) ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26716, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 432.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 432.0, "ID": 26716, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Monteith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 458.0, "ContributionID": 706047, "EditedText": "We can speak outside later. I am sure that it will be enlightening. Laughter.", "EditedTextHTML": "We can speak outside later. I am sure that it will be enlightening. [Laughter.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706053", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Student Finance (Committee of Inquiry) ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26716, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 432.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 432.0, "ID": 26716, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 470.0, "ContributionID": 706053, "EditedText": "I am sorry, I must ask the member to sit down. Please be seated.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry, I must ask the member to sit down. Please be seated.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706055", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Student Finance (Committee of Inquiry) ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26716, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 432.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 432.0, "ID": 26716, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 474.0, "ContributionID": 706055, "EditedText": "You must not do that. There are no interventions in the closing stages of a member's speech. I call Mr Canavan.", "EditedTextHTML": "You must not do that. There are no interventions in the closing stages of a member's speech. I call Mr Canavan.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C706056", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Student Finance (Committee of Inquiry) ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26716, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 432.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 432.0, "ID": 26716, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan (Falkirk West): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 477.0, "ContributionID": 706056, "EditedText": "I would like to thank Mr McLeish for giving Robin Harper, Tommy Sheridan and me some advance indication of his thinking before he lodged this motion. I hope that that custom will continue. I would like to make it clear, as I said to the minister, that I do not see the need for an inquiry. The majority of the members of this chamber were elected on commitments to abolish tuition fees. Now that we have our powers, we should go ahead and legislate to abolish tuition fees. It was interesting to hear Wendy Alexander say, in the previous debate, that the Executive is unwilling to outsource the important matter of local government finance to an independent committee of inquiry, as it is apparently willing to outsource the equally important matter of higher education finance. Tommy Sheridan and I have lodged an amendment to the motion that would add Kenny Hannah's name to the committee's membership. I understand that the amendment has not been selected for debate, which is unfortunate. We are not alone in wanting more students to be members of the committee of inquiry. Kenny is president of the students' association at Glasgow Caledonian University, and an executive member of the National Union of Students. He also organised and led yesterday's successful student march from Glasgow to Edinburgh to lobby the Scottish Parliament. There are different strands of opinion in the NUS on tuition fees. Some, like Kenny Hannah, are absolutely opposed to them. Others seem to take a more ambivalent stand, possibly because of new Labour influence and careerism in student politics. For example, during the election campaign in Falkirk West, some Labour students from the University of Strathclyde were bussed into the constituency to campaign for the only candidate who was committed to keeping tuition fees. That must have been a first in the history of Scottish education—students being bussed from one end of Scotland to the other to campaign for tuition fees. The election result speaks for itself, but I do not want to rub it in. I do not know David Welsh. It may be that he is absolutely opposed to tuition fees, but will Henry McLeish tell us whether David Welsh was nominated by the NUS, or simply hand-picked by the minister? As I said, there are different strands of opinion among students. Henry McLeish also said that he would like the matter of tuition fees to be taken out of the hands of the politicians and put into the hands of an independent committee of inquiry. That sounds almost like passing the buck. The committee of inquiry will report back, not only to the Executive, but to this Parliament, and it is this Parliament that will take the ultimate decision about the matter, and legislate on it. Yesterday, the powers that enable us to legislate on such things were transferred. We ought to use them to empower the people of Scotland and build a better future for them. Investment in higher education is an investment in that future. By eventually legislating to abolish tuition fees and by bringing back grants for students from low-income families, we can help to build a better future, especially for the young people of Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "I would like to thank Mr McLeish for giving Robin Harper, Tommy Sheridan and me some advance indication of his thinking before he lodged this motion. I hope that that custom will continue. I would like to make it

clear, as I said to the minister, that I do not see the need for an inquiry. The majority of the members of this chamber were elected on commitments to abolish tuition fees. Now that we have our powers, we should go ahead and legislate to abolish tuition fees.

It was interesting to hear Wendy Alexander say, in the previous debate, that the Executive is unwilling to outsource the important matter of local government finance to an independent committee of inquiry, as it is apparently willing to outsource the equally important matter of higher education finance.

Tommy Sheridan and I have lodged an amendment to the motion that would add Kenny Hannah's name to the committee's membership. I understand that the amendment has not been selected for debate, which is unfortunate. We are not alone in wanting more students to be members of the committee of inquiry. Kenny is president of the students' association at Glasgow Caledonian University, and an executive member of the National Union of Students. He also organised and led yesterday's successful student march from Glasgow to Edinburgh to lobby the Scottish Parliament.

There are different strands of opinion in the NUS on tuition fees. Some, like Kenny Hannah, are absolutely opposed to them. Others seem to take a more ambivalent stand, possibly because of new Labour influence and careerism in student politics. For example, during the election campaign in Falkirk West, some Labour students from the University of Strathclyde were bussed into the constituency to campaign for the only candidate who was committed to keeping tuition fees. That must have been a first in the history of Scottish education—students being bussed from one end of Scotland to the other to campaign for tuition fees. The election result speaks for itself, but I do not want to rub it in.

I do not know David Welsh. It may be that he is absolutely opposed to tuition fees, but will Henry McLeish tell us whether David Welsh was nominated by the NUS, or simply hand-picked by the minister? As I said, there are different strands of opinion among students.

Henry McLeish also said that he would like the matter of tuition fees to be taken out of the hands of the politicians and put into the hands of an independent committee of inquiry. That sounds almost like passing the buck. The committee of inquiry will report back, not only to the Executive, but to this Parliament, and it is this Parliament that will take the ultimate decision about the matter, and legislate on it.

Yesterday, the powers that enable us to legislate on such things were transferred. We ought to use them to empower the people of Scotland and build a better future for them. Investment in higher education is an investment in that future. By eventually legislating to abolish tuition fees and by bringing back grants for students from low-income families, we can help to build a better future, especially for the young people of Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706066", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Student Finance (Committee of Inquiry) ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26716, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 432.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 432.0, "ID": 26716, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 498.0, "ContributionID": 706066, "EditedText": "Motion moved,", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion moved,

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706069", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26718, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 503.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 503.0, "ID": 26718, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 505.0, "ContributionID": 706069, "EditedText": "The first question is, that motion S1M-82, in the name of Mr Henry McLeish, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "The first question is, that motion S1M-82, in the name of Mr Henry McLeish, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706071", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26718, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 503.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 503.0, "ID": 26718, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 509.0, "ContributionID": 706071, "EditedText": "In that case, we will have a division.", "EditedTextHTML": "In that case, we will have a division.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706082", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26718, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 503.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 503.0, "ID": 26718, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 522.0, "ContributionID": 706082, "EditedText": "Andrew Cubie (Chair), Morag Alexander, Rowena Arshad, George Bennett, David Bleiman, Eleanor Currie, David Dimmock, Marian Healy, Archie Hunter, Dugald Mackie, Ian Ovens, Heather Sheerin, Professor Maria Slowey, David Welsh.", "EditedTextHTML": "Andrew Cubie (Chair), Morag Alexander, Rowena Arshad, George Bennett, David Bleiman, Eleanor Currie, David Dimmock, Marian Healy, Archie Hunter, Dugald Mackie, Ian Ovens, Heather Sheerin, Professor Maria Slowey, David Welsh.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.6078156+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706099", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fish Processing Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26719, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 549.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 549.0, "ID": 26719, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 551.0, "ContributionID": 706099, "EditedText": "That the Parliament agrees that the current expensive implementation proposals for the Urban Waste Water Treatment Directive (91/271/EEC), in so far as they apply to the Scottish fish processing industry in North East Scotland, will effectively close many of the companies engaged in the industry, which provide thousands of skilled jobs; and also agrees that implementation of these proposals should be delayed to allow for proper consideration of the technical review currently being undertaken to produce cost effective solutions for the industry, enabling the industry to continue as a major employer in Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament agrees that the current expensive implementation proposals for the Urban Waste Water Treatment Directive (91/271/EEC), in so far as they apply to the Scottish fish processing industry in North East Scotland, will effectively close many of the companies engaged in the industry, which provide thousands of skilled jobs; and also agrees that implementation of these proposals should be delayed to allow for proper consideration of the technical review currently being undertaken to produce cost effective solutions for the industry, enabling the industry to continue as a major employer in Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.6078156+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706101", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fish Processing Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26719, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 549.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 549.0, "ID": 26719, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 555.0, "ContributionID": 706101, "EditedText": "Excuse me, Mr Davidson. Please resume your seat for a second. In fairness to the member who has the debate, I ask members who are leaving to please do so quickly and quietly.", "EditedTextHTML": "Excuse me, Mr Davidson. Please resume your seat for a second. In fairness to the member who has the debate, I ask members who are leaving to please do so quickly and quietly.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.6078156+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2066E64P88C706106", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fish Processing Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26719, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 549.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 549.0, "ID": 26719, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McGrigor, Jamie", "ID": 2066, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie McGrigor", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Jamie McGrigor (Highlands and Islands) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 566.0, "ContributionID": 706106, "EditedText": "In the run-up to the European election, our party's slogan was \"In Europe, not run by Europe.\"It proved quite popular with the electorate. I submit that this European waste water directive is an example of what we were talking about. It has been landed on the industry without consultation and its implementation will be disastrously expensive for the Scottish fish processing sector, whose 230 units provide 43 per cent of the sea fish processing employment in the UK. The industry is a vital employer in a region that has been decimated by the downturn in the oil and agriculture industries. The directive will obviously affect the fishing industry as a whole, because the extra costs will push up the price of fish products in the shops, which will make them less competitive than other food products. Many processors will go out of business. Not only will jobs be lost, but some skills, such as the filleting of small fish, will disappear. Such skills are specific to the north-east; if they are lost now, they will be difficult to replace. My friend, David Davidson, has talked about white fish in the north-east, but I would like to draw attention to Scottish salmon and trout producers and processors. The industry provides thousands of jobs in the Highlands and Islands and 38 processing units in Scotland deal only with salmon and trout. Recently, the hard-pushed salmon industry has been hit hard by the outbreaks of infectious salmon anaemia. It is nearly impossible for farms to obtain insurance against the value of their stocks because of the policy of destroying all fish stocks in an infected farm. That is not the case in other fish-producing countries such as Norway, so the Scottish product is already becoming less competitive. It is vital that we do not simply accept a European directive that damages an enormously important Scottish industry. I ask for support in allowing time to digest the technical review, which, I hope, will provide less costly solutions for the Scottish fish processing industry. We are here to promote sustainable jobs in Scotland, not sheepishly to accept a European directive that will have precisely the opposite effect.", "EditedTextHTML": "In the run-up to the European election, our party's slogan was

\"In Europe, not run by Europe.\"

It proved quite popular with the electorate. I submit that this European waste water directive is an example of what we were talking about. It has been landed on the industry without consultation and its implementation will be disastrously expensive for the Scottish fish processing sector, whose 230 units provide 43 per cent of the sea fish processing employment in the UK. The industry is a vital employer in a region that has been decimated by the downturn in the oil and agriculture industries.

The directive will obviously affect the fishing industry as a whole, because the extra costs will push up the price of fish products in the shops, which will make them less competitive than other food products. Many processors will go out of business. Not only will jobs be lost, but some skills, such as the filleting of small fish, will disappear. Such skills are specific to the north-east; if they are lost now, they will be difficult to replace.

My friend, David Davidson, has talked about white fish in the north-east, but I would like to draw attention to Scottish salmon and trout producers and processors. The industry provides thousands of jobs in the Highlands and Islands and 38 processing units in Scotland deal only with salmon and trout. Recently, the hard-pushed salmon industry has been hit hard by the outbreaks of infectious salmon anaemia. It is nearly impossible for farms to obtain insurance against the value of their stocks because of the policy of destroying all fish stocks in an infected farm. That is not the case in other fish-producing countries such as Norway, so the Scottish product is already becoming less competitive.

It is vital that we do not simply accept a European directive that damages an enormously important Scottish industry. I ask for support in allowing time to digest the technical review, which, I hope, will provide less costly solutions for the

Scottish fish processing industry. We are here to promote sustainable jobs in Scotland, not sheepishly to accept a European directive that will have precisely the opposite effect.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.6078156+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1770E82P108C706112", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fish Processing Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26719, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 549.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 549.0, "ID": 26719, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Thomson, Elaine", "ID": 1770, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Thomson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Elaine Thomson (Aberdeen North) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 582.0, "ContributionID": 706112, "EditedText": "I think that one of the Liberal Democrat members mentioned the other day that he thought that he was the only person in this Parliament who had worked in a fish factory. I am afraid that he was wrong. Like many Aberdeen students, I spent Mr Davidson made an important point about theseveral summers working \"in the fish\", as it is known in that city. Having had first-hand experience of the fish processing industry, I am well aware not only of the industry's importance to Aberdeen, but of the sense of ownership and affection with which the people of Aberdeen regard the fishing industry as a traditional north-east industry. As colleagues from all parties have said, we recognise the difficulties in which smaller fish processors find themselves through the implementation of the EU urban waste water treatment directive. I join my colleagues in welcoming the initiative of Aberdeen City Council and the Aberdeen Fish Curers and Merchants Association in the treatment of fish waste water. I hope that the proposal will meet environmental requirements and ensure not only the survival of smaller fish processors, but their economic viability. We also have to recognise environmental concerns. Survey after survey has shown that the general public's prime concerns about water are clean beaches, clean seas, clean rivers and good- quality drinking water. My constituency of Aberdeen North is bounded on the east by the beach running up to Balmedie and on the south by the River Don. Those are valuable and valued resources for my constituents for recreation and sporting activities which demand a clean environment and clean water. The directive is in response to the concern about the environmental health of our seas and marine environment. Many are worried about the health of the North sea and of the organisms within it, whether fish, shellfish or marine animals such as the dolphins in the Moray firth. We all want clean seas and a healthy marine environment with healthy fish. A healthy fish stock is also an essential requirement for the continuation of the fish processing industry. We have to help the fish processing industry to continue to modernise so that it can more easily meet EU requirements and produce high-quality, high-value products to compete effectively with competitors in Europe and elsewhere. I urge the ministers to consider sympathetically the fish waste water scheme proposed by Aberdeen City Council and AFCAMA and also to meet representatives of the fish processing industry so that we can meet the twin objectives of a healthy marine environment and a viable fish processing industry.", "EditedTextHTML": "I think that one of the Liberal Democrat members mentioned the other day that he thought that he was the only person in this Parliament who had worked in a fish factory. I am afraid that he was wrong. Like many Aberdeen students, I spent

Mr Davidson made an important point about the

several summers working \"in the fish\", as it is known in that city. Having had first-hand experience of the fish processing industry, I am well aware not only of the industry's importance to Aberdeen, but of the sense of ownership and affection with which the people of Aberdeen regard the fishing industry as a traditional north-east industry.

As colleagues from all parties have said, we recognise the difficulties in which smaller fish processors find themselves through the implementation of the EU urban waste water treatment directive. I join my colleagues in welcoming the initiative of Aberdeen City Council and the Aberdeen Fish Curers and Merchants Association in the treatment of fish waste water. I hope that the proposal will meet environmental requirements and ensure not only the survival of smaller fish processors, but their economic viability.

We also have to recognise environmental concerns. Survey after survey has shown that the general public's prime concerns about water are clean beaches, clean seas, clean rivers and good- quality drinking water. My constituency of Aberdeen North is bounded on the east by the beach running up to Balmedie and on the south by the River Don. Those are valuable and valued resources for my constituents for recreation and sporting activities which demand a clean environment and clean water.

The directive is in response to the concern about the environmental health of our seas and marine environment. Many are worried about the health of the North sea and of the organisms within it, whether fish, shellfish or marine animals such as the dolphins in the Moray firth. We all want clean seas and a healthy marine environment with healthy fish. A healthy fish stock is also an essential requirement for the continuation of the fish processing industry.

We have to help the fish processing industry to continue to modernise so that it can more easily meet EU requirements and produce high-quality, high-value products to compete effectively with competitors in Europe and elsewhere.

I urge the ministers to consider sympathetically the fish waste water scheme proposed by Aberdeen City Council and AFCAMA and also to meet representatives of the fish processing industry so that we can meet the twin objectives of a healthy marine environment and a viable fish processing industry.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.6078156+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C706132", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fish Processing Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26719, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 549.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 549.0, "ID": 26719, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Brian Monteith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 623.0, "ContributionID": 706132, "EditedText": "On a point of order. The minister said that she was responding to members' comments, but it is quite clear that she is reading from a prepared text. Does that not lead to conflict when people want to intervene?", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. The minister said that she was responding to members' comments, but it is quite clear that she is reading from a prepared text. Does that not lead to conflict when people want to intervene?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.6078156+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706138", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fish Processing Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26719, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 549.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 549.0, "ID": 26719, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 635.0, "ContributionID": 706138, "EditedText": "Meeting closed at 13:16.", "EditedTextHTML": "Meeting closed at 13:16.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.6078156+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1857E136P222C706050", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Student Finance (Committee of Inquiry) ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26716, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 432.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 432.0, "ID": 26716, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeill, Pauline", "ID": 1857, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Kelvin" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Pauline McNeill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Pauline McNeill: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 464.0, "ContributionID": 706050, "EditedText": "On a point of order, Mr Presiding Officer.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order, Mr Presiding Officer.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:01:27.8453423+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1857E136P222C706054", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Student Finance (Committee of Inquiry) ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26716, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 432.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 432.0, "ID": 26716, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeill, Pauline", "ID": 1857, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Kelvin" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Pauline McNeill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Pauline McNeill: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 472.0, "ContributionID": 706054, "EditedText": "But Mr Monteith must declare his interests.", "EditedTextHTML": "But Mr Monteith must declare his interests.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:01:27.8453423+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2110E214P424C705986", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gibson, Kenneth", "ID": 2110, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenneth Gibson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Gibson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 321.0, "ContributionID": 705986, "EditedText": "Will Mr McNulty give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr McNulty give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:00:18.757086+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C705857", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26692, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26693, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "QuestionHeading": "University Staff", "QuestionHeadingID": 26697, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 32.0, "DisplayOrder": 32.0, "ID": 26697, "ParentID": 26693 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 37.0, "ContributionID": 705857, "EditedText": "Bearing in mind the fact that the Liberal Democrats, the SNP and the Conservatives have all supported the concept of an independent pay review body for the higher education sector, will the minister tell us the Labour party's position, what proposals he intends to make and what stance he has taken in his discussions with the Association of University Teachers?", "EditedTextHTML": "Bearing in mind the fact that the Liberal Democrats, the SNP and the Conservatives have all supported the concept of an independent pay review body for the higher education sector, will the minister tell us the Labour party's position, what proposals he intends to make and what stance he has taken in his discussions with the Association of University Teachers?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:32:49.6287351+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1870E181P475C705901", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26692, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26693, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "QuestionHeading": "Stephen Lawrence Inquiry", "QuestionHeadingID": 26709, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 136.0, "DisplayOrder": 136.0, "ID": 26709, "ParentID": 26693 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robison, Shona", "ID": 1870, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Shona Robison", "SpeakerDisplayName": "16. Shona Robison (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 137.0, "ContributionID": 705901, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has to implement the recommendations of the Stephen Lawrence inquiry as contained in the Macpherson report. (S1O-126) The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice (Mr Jim Wallace): The Executive fully recognises the important issues raised by the Macpherson report, which clearly have implications for Scotland and not just for England and Wales. I intend to publish shortly an action plan to take forward the Macpherson report in Scotland. We will then consult widely on the proposals in the plan to implement the recommendations.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has to implement the recommendations of the Stephen Lawrence inquiry as contained in the Macpherson report. (S1O-126) The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice (Mr Jim Wallace): The Executive fully recognises the important issues raised by the Macpherson report, which clearly have implications for Scotland and not just for England and Wales. I intend to publish shortly an action plan to take forward the Macpherson report in Scotland. We will then consult widely on the proposals in the plan to implement the recommendations.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:01:26.0699041+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1870E181P475C705902", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26692, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26693, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "QuestionHeading": "Stephen Lawrence Inquiry", "QuestionHeadingID": 26709, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 136.0, "DisplayOrder": 136.0, "ID": 26709, "ParentID": 26693 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robison, Shona", "ID": 1870, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Shona Robison", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Shona Robison: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 139.0, "ContributionID": 705902, "EditedText": "The recent case of Ghulam Rabbani raises many issues relevant to Macpherson, such as the chronic underfunding of interpreting services in Scotland. What does the minister intend to do about that in relation to the criminal justice system?", "EditedTextHTML": "The recent case of Ghulam Rabbani raises many issues relevant to Macpherson, such as the chronic underfunding of interpreting services in Scotland. What does the minister intend to do about that in relation to the criminal justice system?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:01:26.0699041+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1857E136P222C706092", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26718, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 503.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 503.0, "ID": 26718, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeill, Pauline", "ID": 1857, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Kelvin" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Pauline McNeill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Pauline McNeill: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 537.0, "ContributionID": 706092, "EditedText": "No, I was not.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I was not.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:02:32.7857179+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C706039", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Student Finance (Committee of Inquiry) ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26716, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 432.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 432.0, "ID": 26716, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 441.0, "ContributionID": 706039, "EditedText": "I will begin with three constructive remarks. The First Minister should not be surprised that I make constructive remarks; it happens quite frequently. First, the minister spoke of consultation. appreciated the opportunity to discuss this issue with him. We have had input, some—although not all—of which he has taken on board. Secondly, what I shall say about the committee of inquiry has nothing to do with the individuals that have been recommended for appointment by the minister. If individuals are prepared to offer their services to such an inquiry, they should be protected from being knocked about in the chamber. I have no intention of doing that today. My third constructive remark—to complete the hat trick—concerns the minister's closing remarks. I was not surprised when he said that politics is about the general election. He is absolutely right. We had a general election that made it quite clear that the majority of this Parliament wanted the abolition of tuition fees. That inescapable fact has been rehearsed in this debate already and it has been the subject of an enormous amount of debate in this Parliament. By deciding to pass the decision elsewhere, thinking that we are serving our election mandate, this Parliament is losing sight of exactly what the people voted for at the general election. A student came to see me at my surgery on Monday. She told me that in the first election ballot she had voted for the SNP in North Tayside because she believed that the abolition of tuition fees would be at the top of our priorities. She was confident that I would come to the Parliament and vote for the abolition of tuition fees. She voted for the Liberal Democrats in the second ballot, however, because she wanted the Labour party to be held to ransom over tuition fees. That is an example of the sort of discussions that I have had with my constituents, and it provides real evidence on which this Parliament ought to reflect. During question time, Alex Salmond asked the First Minister how he felt the Parliament would meet the expectations of the people of Scotland. The Parliament would have been expected to take early steps to abolish tuition fees. The proposal before us today begins to cast doubt on the practicality of abolishing tuition fees for the academic year that will start next autumn. Practicality is an important word in this debate and one that was used by Mr Rumbles in our debate on the subject a couple of weeks ago. Even with this inquiry, we may face practical difficulties in achieving the abolition of fees. That is a difficult prospect for students to face up to. An increasing number of students tell me that there is an obstacle to gaining access to higher education because it is perceived that going to university costs a lot of money. Until we do something dramatic—and substantial—to change the situation, we will not deliver the expectations of the people of Scotland. The minister has presented his recommendations to Parliament today and we will have the opportunity to vote for them in a few moments. Members of my party will register our principled commitment to immediate action to abolish tuition fees, and we will cast our votes accordingly.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will begin with three constructive remarks. The First Minister should not be surprised that I make constructive remarks; it happens quite frequently.

First, the minister spoke of consultation. appreciated the opportunity to discuss this issue with him. We have had input, some—although not all—of which he has taken on board.

Secondly, what I shall say about the committee of inquiry has nothing to do with the individuals that have been recommended for appointment by the minister. If individuals are prepared to offer their services to such an inquiry, they should be protected from being knocked about in the chamber. I have no intention of doing that today.

My third constructive remark—to complete the hat trick—concerns the minister's closing remarks. I was not surprised when he said that politics is about the general election. He is absolutely right. We had a general election that made it quite clear that the majority of this Parliament wanted the abolition of tuition fees. That inescapable fact has been rehearsed in this debate already and it has been the subject of an enormous amount of debate in this Parliament. By deciding to pass the decision elsewhere, thinking that we are serving our election mandate, this Parliament is losing sight of exactly what the people voted for at the general election.

A student came to see me at my surgery on Monday. She told me that in the first election ballot she had voted for the SNP in North Tayside because she believed that the abolition of tuition fees would be at the top of our priorities. She was confident that I would come to the Parliament and vote for the abolition of tuition fees. She voted for the Liberal Democrats in the second ballot, however, because she wanted the Labour party to be held to ransom over tuition fees. That is an example of the sort of discussions that I have had with my constituents, and it provides real evidence on which this Parliament ought to reflect.

During question time, Alex Salmond asked the First Minister how he felt the Parliament would meet the expectations of the people of Scotland. The Parliament would have been expected to take early steps to abolish tuition fees. The proposal before us today begins to cast doubt on the practicality of abolishing tuition fees for the academic year that will start next autumn. Practicality is an important word in this debate and one that was used by Mr Rumbles in our debate on the subject a couple of weeks ago.

Even with this inquiry, we may face practical difficulties in achieving the abolition of fees. That is a difficult prospect for students to face up to. An increasing number of students tell me that there is

an obstacle to gaining access to higher education because it is perceived that going to university costs a lot of money. Until we do something dramatic—and substantial—to change the situation, we will not deliver the expectations of the people of Scotland.

The minister has presented his recommendations to Parliament today and we will have the opportunity to vote for them in a few moments. Members of my party will register our principled commitment to immediate action to abolish tuition fees, and we will cast our votes accordingly.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:01:27.8453423+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1857E136P222C706044", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Student Finance (Committee of Inquiry) ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26716, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 432.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 432.0, "ID": 26716, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeill, Pauline", "ID": 1857, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Kelvin" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Pauline McNeill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Pauline McNeill (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 452.0, "ContributionID": 706044, "EditedText": "Will Mr Monteith give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr Monteith give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:01:27.8453423+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C706060", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Student Finance (Committee of Inquiry) ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26716, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 432.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 432.0, "ID": 26716, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 486.0, "ContributionID": 706060, "EditedText": "Will Mr McLeish give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr McLeish give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:01:27.8453423+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1773E197P503C705880", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26692, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26693, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "QuestionHeading": "Housing (Glasgow)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26704, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 89.0, "DisplayOrder": 89.0, "ID": 26704, "ParentID": 26693 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hyslop, Fiona", "ID": 1773, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona Hyslop", "SpeakerDisplayName": "11. Fiona Hyslop (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 90.0, "ContributionID": 705880, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it intends to provide details about the revised timetable for housing stock transfer in Glasgow City Council. (S1O-188) The Minister for Communities (Ms Wendy Alexander): There is no timetable, revised or otherwise, to announce. The council has undertaken a feasibility study of the potential for a whole stock transfer and has submitted a bid for further funding to develop a transfer proposal, which is under consideration.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it intends to provide details about the revised timetable for housing stock transfer in Glasgow City Council. (S1O-188) The Minister for Communities (Ms Wendy Alexander): There is no timetable, revised or otherwise, to announce. The council has undertaken a feasibility study of the potential for a whole stock transfer and has submitted a bid for further funding to develop a transfer proposal, which is under consideration.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:01:40.7395022+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2180E179P471C706116", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fish Processing Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26719, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 549.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 549.0, "ID": 26719, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lochhead, Richard", "ID": 2180, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Lochhead", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Richard Lochhead: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 591.0, "ContributionID": 706116, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:12.769626+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2180E179P471C706126", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fish Processing Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26719, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 549.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 549.0, "ID": 26719, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lochhead, Richard", "ID": 2180, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Lochhead", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Richard Lochhead: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 611.0, "ContributionID": 706126, "EditedText": "It is his motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is his motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:12.769626+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C706119", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fish Processing Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26719, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 549.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 549.0, "ID": 26719, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 597.0, "ContributionID": 706119, "EditedText": "In my speech I am dealing with the specific points that members have raised. If a member would like to make a new point that has not been made already, I am quite happy to accept an intervention in my speech as long as I get time added on at the end of my speech.", "EditedTextHTML": "In my speech I am dealing with the specific points that members have raised. If a member would like to make a new point that has not been made already, I am quite happy to accept an intervention in my speech as long as I get time added on at the end of my speech.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:05.8270026+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C706113", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fish Processing Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26719, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 549.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 549.0, "ID": 26719, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment (Sarah Boyack): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 585.0, "ContributionID": 706113, "EditedText": "This has been an intelligent and useful debate and I thank Mr Davidson for making the most of this early opportunity to get the issue on our agenda paper. We are extremely aware of the serious concerns of fish processors in the north-east and we are concerned about their difficulties. I acknowledge the point made by several members about the industry's importance to the local economy and to the thousands of people who work in the industry. I understand that the figure is around 6,000, although other estimates have put it higher. The charges set by NOSWA for dealing with waste water containing trade effluent will rise very substantially if we do not take action and resolve the issue. I want to put on record the two main factors behind the increase in charges. First, NOSWA is now fully implementing the Mogden approach to setting waste water charges. Secondly, as several members have said, the implementation of the European directive on urban waste water treatment requires NOSWA to provide secondary treatment for significant discharges by the end of 2000. That means that those who discharge trade effluent into the urban sewerage system will have to pay for secondary treatment. That is where we have to begin this debate. I appreciate Elaine Thomson's comments about environmental issues. I suspect that most people would be alarmed by the amount of raw sewage that we pump into our rivers and seas with all the resulting problems for bathing waters and public health. In NOSWA, 65 per cent of sewage is dispersed into our waters with minimal treatment. I am sure that we would all agree in principle that we cannot tolerate that in this day and age. Investing in necessary treatment will mean higher charges for us, but I believe—and I hope that the whole Parliament will agree—that this is a price that we have to pay if we really care about looking after our environment. On setting charges, NOSWA inherited various approaches from the previous regional authorities. The idea of moving to the Mogden formula is that it is the fairest approach. It has been endorsed by the Confederation of British Industry. Under the Mogden formula, the level of the charge depends on the volume and strength of the liquid that is discharged. Essentially, the greater the pollution, the higher the charge. It is now a standard throughout the water industry and in Scotland people are already paying charges using this formula. The cost of treating waste water has to be paid either by those who discharge the effluent or through cross-subsidy from other customers. The Mogden formula ensures that the polluter pays and there is no cross-subsidy between customers of the water authorities. We welcome NOSWA's efforts to move towards a proper and fairer cost recovery system. At the same time we have to address the issue of the European urban waste water treatment directive to ensure that specified levels of treatment are provided to meet specified deadlines. In many coastal areas, this means introducing sewage treatment for the first time. In Fraserburgh, Peterhead and Aberdeen, where most of the fish processors are based, there is a requirement for secondary treatment by the end of 2000. That backdrop means that we do not have a long time to debate this issue. Conservative members have suggested that we delay the implementation of this directive to allow consideration of a technical review now being undertaken. I do not believe that a delay would be a sensible option for us to pursue. Failure to implement the directive in time would mean that the UK ran a serious risk of infraction proceedings from the European Commission in the European Court of Justice. We are aware that the European Commission is keen to pursue this issue. On the point made by Richard Lochhead about trying to receive derogation on this issue, the previous Administration under Lord Sewel attempted to get derogation for Aberdeen and Aberdeenshire to prevent us from having to address this issue. It was given the clear understanding by other European states that this would not be acceptable, so we have attempted to get derogation.", "EditedTextHTML": "This has been an intelligent and useful debate and I thank Mr

Davidson for making the most of this early opportunity to get the issue on our agenda paper. We are extremely aware of the serious concerns of fish processors in the north-east and we are concerned about their difficulties. I acknowledge the point made by several members about the industry's importance to the local economy and to the thousands of people who work in the industry. I understand that the figure is around 6,000, although other estimates have put it higher.

The charges set by NOSWA for dealing with waste water containing trade effluent will rise very substantially if we do not take action and resolve the issue. I want to put on record the two main factors behind the increase in charges. First, NOSWA is now fully implementing the Mogden approach to setting waste water charges. Secondly, as several members have said, the implementation of the European directive on urban waste water treatment requires NOSWA to provide secondary treatment for significant discharges by the end of 2000. That means that those who discharge trade effluent into the urban sewerage system will have to pay for secondary treatment.

That is where we have to begin this debate. I appreciate Elaine Thomson's comments about environmental issues. I suspect that most people would be alarmed by the amount of raw sewage that we pump into our rivers and seas with all the resulting problems for bathing waters and public health.

In NOSWA, 65 per cent of sewage is dispersed into our waters with minimal treatment. I am sure that we would all agree in principle that we cannot tolerate that in this day and age. Investing in necessary treatment will mean higher charges for us, but I believe—and I hope that the whole Parliament will agree—that this is a price that we have to pay if we really care about looking after our environment.

On setting charges, NOSWA inherited various approaches from the previous regional authorities. The idea of moving to the Mogden formula is that it is the fairest approach. It has been endorsed by the Confederation of British Industry. Under the Mogden formula, the level of the charge depends on the volume and strength of the liquid that is discharged. Essentially, the greater the pollution, the higher the charge. It is now a standard throughout the water industry and in Scotland people are already paying charges using this formula. The cost of treating waste water has to be paid either by those who discharge the effluent or through cross-subsidy from other customers. The Mogden formula ensures that the polluter pays and there is no cross-subsidy between customers of the water authorities. We welcome NOSWA's efforts to move towards a proper and fairer cost recovery system.

At the same time we have to address the issue of the European urban waste water treatment directive to ensure that specified levels of treatment are provided to meet specified deadlines. In many coastal areas, this means introducing sewage treatment for the first time. In Fraserburgh, Peterhead and Aberdeen, where most of the fish processors are based, there is a requirement for secondary treatment by the end of 2000. That backdrop means that we do not have a long time to debate this issue. Conservative members have suggested that we delay the implementation of this directive to allow consideration of a technical review now being undertaken. I do not believe that a delay would be a sensible option for us to pursue. Failure to implement the directive in time would mean that the UK ran a serious risk of infraction proceedings from the European Commission in the European Court of Justice. We are aware that the European Commission is keen to pursue this issue.

On the point made by Richard Lochhead about trying to receive derogation on this issue, the previous Administration under Lord Sewel attempted to get derogation for Aberdeen and Aberdeenshire to prevent us from having to address this issue. It was given the clear understanding by other European states that this would not be acceptable, so we have attempted to get derogation.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:05.8270026+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C706117", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fish Processing Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26719, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 549.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 549.0, "ID": 26719, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 593.0, "ContributionID": 706117, "EditedText": "I will not give way.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will not give way.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:05.8270026+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C706127", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fish Processing Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26719, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 549.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 549.0, "ID": 26719, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 613.0, "ContributionID": 706127, "EditedText": "If traders do not need to use the plant, the PFI scheme will operate in such a way that the charges can be accommodated. That is the risk that the PFI bidder takes on in accepting this project. Mr Brian Adam made a point about the PFI project as well. The scheme is one potential way to proceed and it would be dealt with by the Scottish Environment Protection Agency under its regulation and control schemes. However, we urge caution. In the immediate future, I want to have a detailed discussion with people in the fish processing industry and with my colleague John Home Robertson to find a possible way forward.", "EditedTextHTML": "If traders do not need to use the plant, the PFI scheme will operate in such a way that the charges can be accommodated. That is the risk that the PFI bidder takes on in accepting this project.

Mr Brian Adam made a point about the PFI project as well. The scheme is one potential way to proceed and it would be dealt with by the Scottish Environment Protection Agency under its regulation and control schemes. However, we urge caution. In the immediate future, I want to have a detailed discussion with people in the fish processing industry and with my colleague John Home Robertson to find a possible way forward.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:05.8270026+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C706130", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fish Processing Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26719, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 549.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 549.0, "ID": 26719, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 619.0, "ContributionID": 706130, "EditedText": "Yes, Mr Davidson, if the point has not been made before.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes, Mr Davidson, if the point has not been made before.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:05.8270026+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C706136", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fish Processing Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26719, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 549.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 549.0, "ID": 26719, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 631.0, "ContributionID": 706136, "EditedText": "No, I am winding up. The strategic review study will offer us a number of opportunities to examine this issue. Time is short; but in my ministerial position and with my other ministerial colleagues, I am keen that we talk to people to discover what we can do. As everybody has made plain, it is a complex issue with no easy solution. Had there been an easy solution, I am sure that the Conservative Government would have solved it when in power. We need to comply with European directives; we cannot ignore them. We have to work out strategies to help the industries and communities, which will be difficult. I suggest to Mr Lochhead that, if we are trying to bring a fresh view to the debate, we have to consider the long-term strategic implications of any initiatives. We should not ignore the implications and pretend that they are not going to happen, but we should address them in Parliament and in our committees to ensure that we meet our obligations under the European directives, and that we meet them in a way that is sensible and will benefit our whole community.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I am winding up. The strategic review study will offer us a number of opportunities to examine this issue. Time is short; but in my ministerial position and with my other ministerial colleagues, I am keen that we talk to people to discover what we can do. As everybody has made plain, it is a complex issue with no easy solution. Had there been an easy solution, I am sure that the Conservative Government would have solved it when in power. We need to comply with European directives; we cannot ignore them. We have to work out strategies to help the industries and communities, which will be difficult.

I suggest to Mr Lochhead that, if we are trying to bring a fresh view to the debate, we have to consider the long-term strategic implications of any initiatives. We should not ignore the implications and pretend that they are not going to happen, but we should address them in Parliament and in our committees to ensure that we meet our obligations under the European directives, and that we meet them in a way that is sensible and will benefit our whole community.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:05.8270026+00:00" }, { "ID": "C705842", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Friday 2 July 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26691, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26691, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 2.0, "ContributionID": 705842, "EditedText": "THE PRESIDING OFFICER opened the meeting at 09:31", "EditedTextHTML": "[THE PRESIDING OFFICER opened the meeting at 09:31]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1962E35P56C705844", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26692, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26693, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "QuestionHeading": "Rural Schools", "QuestionHeadingID": 26694, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26694, "ParentID": 26693 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mundell, David", "ID": 1962, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Mundell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "1. David Mundell (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 8.0, "ContributionID": 705844, "EditedText": "At 1 o'clock this morning it did not seem such a great honour to ask the first question of our newly empowered legislature, but I am sure that, although I was selected randomly by computer, it is indeed an honour. To ask the Scottish Executive what steps it intends to take to support and fund education of children from rural communities at schools located within those communities. (S1O-151)", "EditedTextHTML": "At 1 o'clock this morning it did not seem such a great honour to ask the first question of our newly empowered legislature, but I am sure that, although I was selected randomly by computer, it is indeed an honour.

To ask the Scottish Executive what steps it intends to take to support and fund education of children from rural communities at schools located within those communities. (S1O-151)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2167E79P155C705847", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26692, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26693, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "QuestionHeading": "Rural Schools", "QuestionHeadingID": 26694, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 7.0, "DisplayOrder": 7.0, "ID": 26694, "ParentID": 26693 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Peacock, Peter", "ID": 2167, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Peter Peacock", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Peter Peacock: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 14.0, "ContributionID": 705847, "EditedText": "We want a strong network of rural schools in Scotland; they are part of the diversity of the Scottish education system. The Government has made available a substantial additional sum of money—some £27 million— through the new deal for schools, of which Dumfries and Galloway Council has had an allocation of about £1.5 million, which should help it to tackle its problems. In addition, the Government is making available through the non-housing capital consent the sum of £377 million, which is for local authorities to prioritise. Both the Government and local authorities give education the highest priority.", "EditedTextHTML": "We want a strong network of rural schools in Scotland; they are part of the diversity of the Scottish education system. The Government has made available a substantial additional sum of money—some £27 million— through the new deal for schools, of which Dumfries and Galloway Council has had an allocation of about £1.5 million, which should help it to tackle its problems.

In addition, the Government is making available through the non-housing capital consent the sum of £377 million, which is for local authorities to prioritise. Both the Government and local authorities give education the highest priority.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C705850", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26692, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26693, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "QuestionHeading": "General Teaching Council", "QuestionHeadingID": 26695, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 16.0, "DisplayOrder": 16.0, "ID": 26695, "ParentID": 26693 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Monteith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 21.0, "ContributionID": 705850, "EditedText": "The Educational Institute of Scotland dominates elections to the GTC by its effective running of slates and also dominates the convenerships of that body. Given those facts, does the minister intend to make any changes to the way in which the GTC is formed before passing greater powers to it?", "EditedTextHTML": "The Educational Institute of Scotland dominates elections to the GTC by its effective running of slates and also dominates the convenerships of that body. Given those facts, does the minister intend to make any changes to the way in which the GTC is formed before passing greater powers to it?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C705853", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26692, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26693, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "QuestionHeading": "Criminal Record Certificates", "QuestionHeadingID": 26696, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 25.0, "DisplayOrder": 25.0, "ID": 26696, "ParentID": 26693 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Davidson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 28.0, "ContributionID": 705853, "EditedText": "Is the minister aware of the amount that some Scottish organisations will have to pay if there is to be a series of charges? The Boys Brigade will have to pay £65,000 a year and I believe that the Guide Association will have to pay £23,000. Does the minister intend to implement a relief scheme for those organisations?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is the minister aware of the amount that some Scottish organisations will have to pay if there is to be a series of charges? The Boys Brigade will have to pay £65,000 a year and I believe that the Guide Association will have to pay £23,000. Does the minister intend to implement a relief scheme for those organisations?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C705856", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26692, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26693, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "QuestionHeading": "University Staff", "QuestionHeadingID": 26697, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 32.0, "DisplayOrder": 32.0, "ID": 26697, "ParentID": 26693 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning (Henry McLeish): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 35.0, "ContributionID": 705856, "EditedText": "That is a matter for the higher education sector. There is no barrier to its initiating an independent pay review if it wants to.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is a matter for the higher education sector. There is no barrier to its initiating an independent pay review if it wants to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C705860", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26692, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26693, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "QuestionHeading": "Fire Services", "QuestionHeadingID": 26698, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 41.0, "DisplayOrder": 41.0, "ID": 26698, "ParentID": 26693 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Justice (Angus Mackay): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 44.0, "ContributionID": 705860, "EditedText": "Statutory responsibility for the provision of fire services rests with the fire authorities. Negotiations on conditions of service are continuing with no indication that industrial action is imminent. However, we will keep matters under review.", "EditedTextHTML": "Statutory responsibility for the provision of fire services rests with the fire authorities. Negotiations on conditions of service are continuing with no indication that industrial action is imminent. However, we will keep matters under review.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2118E157P454C705861", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26692, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26693, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "QuestionHeading": "Fire Services", "QuestionHeadingID": 26698, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 41.0, "DisplayOrder": 41.0, "ID": 26698, "ParentID": 26693 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Quinan, Mr Lloyd", "ID": 2118, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lloyd Quinan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Quinan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 46.0, "ContributionID": 705861, "EditedText": "Is the deputy minister aware that the Scottish region of the Fire Brigades Union agrees with the national motion that was passed that if the conditions of service are changed— something that it fully expects to happen—there will be national industrial action? The union believes that the Government and the Executive are sleepwalking towards a national fire brigade strike.", "EditedTextHTML": "Is the deputy minister aware that the Scottish region of the Fire Brigades Union agrees with the national motion that was passed that if the conditions of service are changed— something that it fully expects to happen—there will be national industrial action? The union believes that the Government and the Executive are sleepwalking towards a national fire brigade strike.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C705862", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26692, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26693, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "QuestionHeading": "Fire Services", "QuestionHeadingID": 26698, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 41.0, "DisplayOrder": 41.0, "ID": 26698, "ParentID": 26693 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Angus Mackay: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 48.0, "ContributionID": 705862, "EditedText": "The original proposals for changes to terms and conditions have been whittled down to seven points; those will be discussed at two further meetings that are to take place at the national joint council for local government services. The employers have made it clear that they do not intend to impose changes to pay and conditions. Negotiations should, therefore, continue without a breakdown in relations.", "EditedTextHTML": "The original proposals for changes to terms and conditions have been whittled down to seven points; those will be discussed at two further meetings that are to take place at the national joint council for local government services. The employers have made it clear that they do not intend to impose changes to

pay and conditions. Negotiations should, therefore, continue without a breakdown in relations.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2108E50P256C705863", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26692, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26693, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "QuestionHeading": "Schools (Sport)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26699, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 50.0, "DisplayOrder": 50.0, "ID": 26699, "ParentID": 26693 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macintosh, Ken", "ID": 2108, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Eastwood" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ken Macintosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "6. Mr Kenneth Macintosh (Eastwood) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 51.0, "ContributionID": 705863, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will make a statement on the number of school sports co-ordinators. (S1O-175)", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will make a statement on the number of school sports co-ordinators. (S1O-175)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1862E99P179C705866", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26692, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26693, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "QuestionHeading": "Schools (Sport)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26699, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 50.0, "DisplayOrder": 50.0, "ID": 26699, "ParentID": 26693 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Brankin, Rhona", "ID": 1862, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Midlothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Culture and Sport", "SpeakerName": "Rhona Brankin", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Rhona Brankin: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 57.0, "ContributionID": 705866, "EditedText": "Yes, and I welcome the work that is being done in East Renfrewshire. Sport has an essential role to play in promoting social inclusion; social inclusion features in the Scottish Sports Council's corporate plan, \"Sport 21\". Earlier this week, I visited Arbroath High School and Arbroath Academy to see school sports co-ordinators in action. In Arbroath Academy I was particularly pleased to see the interesting scheme in which able-bodied children worked with children with special educational needs.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes, and I welcome the work that is being done in East Renfrewshire. Sport has an essential role to play in promoting social inclusion; social inclusion features in the Scottish Sports Council's corporate plan, \"Sport 21\". Earlier this week, I visited Arbroath High School and Arbroath Academy to see school sports co-ordinators in action. In Arbroath Academy I was particularly pleased to see the interesting scheme in which able-bodied children worked with children with special educational needs.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C705869", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26692, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26693, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "QuestionHeading": "Accident and Emergency (Glasgow)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26700, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 59.0, "DisplayOrder": 59.0, "ID": 26700, "ParentID": 26693 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 64.0, "ContributionID": 705869, "EditedText": "I recognise that there are strongly held local views on various aspects of the issue. I must stress again that there are currently no firm proposals for change. As and when any such proposals are put forward, the health board has a statutory obligation to consult; I would ensure that full and effective public consultation on any proposals for change took place. I plan to meet the Greater Glasgow Health Board and a range of other bodies over the recess. I want to be assured that any proposals for change and the reasoning behind them will be well explained to the public. We want to achieve high-quality services that meet local needs and are fit for the 21st century. I hope that we can achieve that in Glasgow and elsewhere.", "EditedTextHTML": "I recognise that there are strongly held local views on various aspects of the issue. I must stress again that there are currently no firm proposals for change. As and when any such proposals are put forward, the health board has a statutory obligation to consult; I would ensure that full and effective public consultation on any proposals for change took place. I plan to meet the Greater Glasgow Health Board and a range of other bodies over the recess. I want to be assured that any proposals for change and the reasoning behind them will be well explained to the public. We want to achieve high-quality services that meet local needs and are fit for the 21st century. I hope that we can achieve that in Glasgow and elsewhere.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2167E79P155C705872", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26692, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26693, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "QuestionHeading": "After-school Clubs", "QuestionHeadingID": 26701, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 66.0, "DisplayOrder": 66.0, "ID": 26701, "ParentID": 26693 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Peacock, Peter", "ID": 2167, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Peter Peacock", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Peter Peacock: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 71.0, "ContributionID": 705872, "EditedText": "Cathy Jamieson makes an important point: it is often more difficult to make provision in rural areas because of the smaller school rolls. We want broad equality of provision in rural and urban areas throughout Scotland. I would be happy to consider a visit to her constituency to consider the projects that she mentioned.", "EditedTextHTML": "Cathy Jamieson makes an important point: it is often more difficult to make provision in rural areas because of the smaller school rolls. We want broad equality of provision in rural and urban areas throughout Scotland. I would be happy to consider a visit to her constituency to consider the projects that she mentioned.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2223E203P342C705877", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26692, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26693, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "QuestionHeading": "Fisheries", "QuestionHeadingID": 26703, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 82.0, "DisplayOrder": 82.0, "ID": 26703, "ParentID": 26693 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scott, Tavish", "ID": 2223, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Shetland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tavish Scott", "SpeakerDisplayName": "10. Tavish Scott (Shetland) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 83.0, "ContributionID": 705877, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has, within the context of negotiations on the reform of the common fisheries policy, to argue for the implementation of regional fisheries management regimes. (S1O-167) The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs (Mr John Home Robertson): The Scottish Executive will press for improvements to the common fisheries policy with the objectives of conserving fish stocks and protecting the interests of fishing communities. The \"Partnership for Scotland\" document includes a commitment to encourage greater local involvement in the development of sustainable fisheries.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has, within the context of negotiations on the reform of the common fisheries policy, to argue for the implementation of regional fisheries management regimes. (S1O-167) The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs (Mr John Home Robertson): The Scottish Executive will press for improvements to the common fisheries policy with the objectives of conserving fish stocks and protecting the interests of fishing communities. The \"Partnership for Scotland\" document includes a commitment to encourage greater local involvement in the development of sustainable fisheries.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2100E64P254C705879", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26692, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26693, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "QuestionHeading": "Fisheries", "QuestionHeadingID": 26703, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 82.0, "DisplayOrder": 82.0, "ID": 26703, "ParentID": 26693 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Home Robertson, John", "ID": 2100, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Lothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "John Home Robertson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Home Robertson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 87.0, "ContributionID": 705879, "EditedText": "I stress that we want a constructive relationship with the Scottish Fishermen's Federation on matters that affect Scottish fishing communities and I welcome the positive point made by Tavish Scott, the member for Shetland. The fact that Mediterranean countries have a say in the management of North sea fisheries and that we have a say in the management of Mediterranean fisheries is an idiosyncrasy that we could probably do without. We welcome the proposals of the Scottish Fishermen's Federation for regional management in the North sea as a useful contribution to discussions about the future of the common fisheries policy.", "EditedTextHTML": "I stress that we want a constructive relationship with the Scottish Fishermen's Federation on matters that affect

Scottish fishing communities and I welcome the positive point made by Tavish Scott, the member for Shetland. The fact that Mediterranean countries have a say in the management of North sea fisheries and that we have a say in the management of Mediterranean fisheries is an idiosyncrasy that we could probably do without. We welcome the proposals of the Scottish Fishermen's Federation for regional management in the North sea as a useful contribution to discussions about the future of the common fisheries policy.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1862E99P179C705886", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26692, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26693, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "QuestionHeading": "Sport", "QuestionHeadingID": 26705, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 96.0, "DisplayOrder": 96.0, "ID": 26705, "ParentID": 26693 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Brankin, Rhona", "ID": 1862, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Midlothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Culture and Sport", "SpeakerName": "Rhona Brankin", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Rhona Brankin: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 103.0, "ContributionID": 705886, "EditedText": "Many of us would love to see the Ryder cup come to Scotland. In the first instance, that is a matter for the relevant golf associations, although we would all like to the event to take place.", "EditedTextHTML": "Many of us would love to see the Ryder cup come to Scotland. In the first instance, that is a matter for the relevant golf associations, although we would all like to the event to take place.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1775E171P452C705887", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26692, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26693, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "QuestionHeading": "Sport", "QuestionHeadingID": 26705, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 96.0, "DisplayOrder": 96.0, "ID": 26705, "ParentID": 26693 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeod, Fiona", "ID": 1775, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona McLeod", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona McLeod: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 105.0, "ContributionID": 705887, "EditedText": "I understand that the relevant golf associations need to be involved. The idea is to promote a cross-club bid, which would, in the first instance, bring the event to Scotland. That bid is coupled with the imaginative idea of establishing a youth Ryder cup at another club the week before the main tournament. Will the minister support such a bid?", "EditedTextHTML": "I understand that the relevant golf associations need to be involved. The idea is to promote a cross-club bid, which would, in the first instance, bring the event to Scotland. That bid is coupled with the imaginative idea of establishing a youth Ryder cup at another club the week before the main tournament. Will the minister support such a bid?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1882E175P456C705890", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26692, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26693, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "QuestionHeading": "Multilateral Agreement on Investment", "QuestionHeadingID": 26706, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 109.0, "DisplayOrder": 109.0, "ID": 26706, "ParentID": 26693 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ingram, Adam", "ID": 1882, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Adam Ingram", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Ingram: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 112.0, "ContributionID": 705890, "EditedText": "Does the minister acknowledge that such an agreement would cut across the jurisdiction of this Parliament? What areas of the Executive's programme would be constrained by a future MAI agreed by the Westminster Government?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the minister acknowledge that such an agreement would cut across the jurisdiction of this Parliament? What areas of the Executive's programme would be constrained by a future MAI agreed by the Westminster Government?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1986E53P206C705892", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26692, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26693, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "QuestionHeading": "New Deal", "QuestionHeadingID": 26707, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 116.0, "DisplayOrder": 116.0, "ID": 26707, "ParentID": 26693 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeil, Duncan", "ID": 1986, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Greenock and Inverclyde" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan McNeil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "14. Mr Duncan McNeil (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 117.0, "ContributionID": 705892, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it intends to make a statement on the number of young unemployed who have benefited from the first full year of the new deal. (S1O-146)", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it intends to make a statement on the number of young unemployed who have benefited from the first full year of the new deal. (S1O-146)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C705907", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26710, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 143.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26711, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 144.0, "QuestionHeading": "Scottish Parliament", "QuestionHeadingID": 26712, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 145.0, "DisplayOrder": 145.0, "ID": 26712, "ParentID": 26711 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 152.0, "ContributionID": 705907, "EditedText": "That is a proposition that I might even assent to. However, I am not sure that I was emotional or tired last night, but I certainly was not sitting at 1 am looking at Ceefax. Laughter. That, Sir David, was a distinctly alarming piece of information from the leader of the nationalists. I accept that there will be vigorous debate in this chamber. We all want that debate to be extended, when appropriate, into civic society and across the communities of Scotland. We will try to give impetus to that. A clear message came out of yesterday's happy celebrations: people in Scotland value co-operation among politicians; and on initiatives and areas of policy on which there ought to be agreement, they look forward to the musketry in the party trenches being dumped. I commend that to him.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is a proposition that I might even assent to. However, I am not sure that I was emotional or tired last night, but I certainly was not sitting at 1 am looking at Ceefax. [Laughter.] That, Sir David, was a distinctly alarming piece of information from the leader of the nationalists.

I accept that there will be vigorous debate in this chamber. We all want that debate to be extended, when appropriate, into civic society and across the communities of Scotland. We will try to give impetus to that.

A clear message came out of yesterday's happy celebrations: people in Scotland value co-operation among politicians; and on initiatives and areas of policy on which there ought to be agreement, they look forward to the musketry in the party trenches being dumped. I commend that to him.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C705908", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26710, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 143.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26711, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 144.0, "QuestionHeading": "Scottish Parliament", "QuestionHeadingID": 26712, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 145.0, "DisplayOrder": 145.0, "ID": 26712, "ParentID": 26711 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 154.0, "ContributionID": 705908, "EditedText": "I fully accept that some people returned home slightly earlier than others. To ask a precise question: if vigorous debate is to go through Scottish society, will the First Minister join me, Unison, and the Transport and General Workers Union in condemning the action that is being taken by Edinburgh City Council against Mr Dorman and Mr Corsie, whose offence appears to be that, during an election visit by Mr David Blunkett, they voiced their concerns to the press over the private finance initiative?", "EditedTextHTML": "I fully accept that some people returned home slightly earlier than others.

To ask a precise question: if vigorous debate is to go through Scottish society, will the First Minister join me, Unison, and the Transport and General Workers Union in condemning the action that is being taken by Edinburgh City Council against Mr Dorman and Mr Corsie, whose offence appears to be that, during an election visit by Mr David Blunkett, they voiced their concerns to the press over the private finance initiative?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C705912", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26710, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 143.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26711, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 144.0, "QuestionHeading": "Scottish Parliament", "QuestionHeadingID": 26712, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 145.0, "DisplayOrder": 145.0, "ID": 26712, "ParentID": 26711 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 162.0, "ContributionID": 705912, "EditedText": "Lewis Macdonald.", "EditedTextHTML": "Lewis Macdonald.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2117E79P104C705915", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26710, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 143.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26711, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 144.0, "QuestionHeading": "Scottish Parliament", "QuestionHeadingID": 26712, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 145.0, "DisplayOrder": 145.0, "ID": 26712, "ParentID": 26711 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macdonald, Lewis", "ID": 2117, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lewis Macdonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Lewis Macdonald: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 168.0, "ContributionID": 705915, "EditedText": "My apologies.", "EditedTextHTML": "My apologies.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2105E44P74C705917", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26710, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 143.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26711, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 144.0, "QuestionHeading": "Homeless People", "QuestionHeadingID": 26713, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 172.0, "DisplayOrder": 172.0, "ID": 26713, "ParentID": 26711 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harding, Mr Keith", "ID": 2105, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Harding", "SpeakerDisplayName": "2. Mr Keith Harding (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 173.0, "ContributionID": 705917, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it has any plans to set and monitor targets to reduce the numbers of homeless people. (S1O-159) The Minister for Communities (Ms Wendy Alexander): On 17 June I announced that the Deputy Minister for Communities is to lead a major new task force to take an in-depth look at the causes of homelessness in Scotland, with the aim of developing a long-term strategy. The Government is already committed to ensuring that by the end of this session of Parliament no one will have to sleep rough.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it has any plans to set and monitor targets to reduce the numbers of homeless people. (S1O-159) The Minister for Communities (Ms Wendy Alexander): On 17 June I announced that the Deputy Minister for Communities is to lead a major new task force to take an in-depth look at the causes of homelessness in Scotland, with the aim of developing a long-term strategy. The Government is already committed to ensuring that by the end of this session of Parliament no one will have to sleep rough.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C705919", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26710, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 143.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26711, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 144.0, "QuestionHeading": "Homeless People", "QuestionHeadingID": 26713, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 172.0, "DisplayOrder": 172.0, "ID": 26713, "ParentID": 26711 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 177.0, "ContributionID": 705919, "EditedText": "There is consensus that one of the reasons for the rise in homelessness is the increase in applications from homeless people through the new code of better reporting that we have introduced. All housing organisations acknowledge that our legislation is 21 years out of date. It does not tell us what we need to know. We have an opportunity to legislate and we will do that based on recommendations as to how homelessness can be prevented, and how we can assist those who are homeless.", "EditedTextHTML": "There is consensus that one of the reasons for the rise in homelessness is the increase in applications from homeless people through the new code of better reporting that we have introduced. All housing organisations acknowledge that our legislation is 21 years out of date. It does not tell us what we need to know. We have an opportunity to legislate and we will do that based on recommendations as to how homelessness can be prevented, and how we can assist those who are homeless.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2105E44P74C705920", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26710, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 143.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26711, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 144.0, "QuestionHeading": "Homeless People", "QuestionHeadingID": 26713, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 172.0, "DisplayOrder": 172.0, "ID": 26713, "ParentID": 26711 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harding, Mr Keith", "ID": 2105, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Harding", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Harding: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 179.0, "ContributionID": 705920, "EditedText": "I thank the minister for that comprehensive answer, but why is that not in the legislative programme for the coming year?", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the minister for that comprehensive answer, but why is that not in the legislative programme for the coming year?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C705921", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26710, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 143.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26711, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 144.0, "QuestionHeading": "Homeless People", "QuestionHeadingID": 26713, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 172.0, "DisplayOrder": 172.0, "ID": 26713, "ParentID": 26711 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 181.0, "ContributionID": 705921, "EditedText": "We have already discussed this and, in keeping with the spirit of consultation in this Parliament, the consultation period for the green paper on housing closed just a few days ago. We have said that we will consult on those proposals and we look forward to introducing legislation. We picked the area of homelessness because there was unanimity to move forward and to set up a review straight away. Jackie Baillie is now leading that review.", "EditedTextHTML": "We have already discussed this and, in keeping with the spirit of consultation in this Parliament, the consultation period for the green paper on housing closed just a few days ago. We have said that we will consult on those proposals and we look forward to introducing legislation.

We picked the area of homelessness because there was unanimity to move forward and to set up a review straight away. Jackie Baillie is now leading that review.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C705925", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26710, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 143.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26711, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 144.0, "QuestionHeading": "Integrated Government", "QuestionHeadingID": 26714, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 187.0, "DisplayOrder": 187.0, "ID": 26714, "ParentID": 26711 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister (Donald Dewar): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 190.0, "ContributionID": 705925, "EditedText": "The Administration regards this as an issue of considerable importance. New ministerial committees on rural development, drugs, social inclusion and the creation of digital Scotland will soon be in operation. One of the failures of the past has been that we have talked a great deal about cross-cutting but we have not made it as effective as we would have liked. I have been in office and must take some of the blame for this. The new Parliament and the new Administration have an opportunity to pick areas of the kind that I mentioned—areas that genuinely straddle the portfolios of a number of ministers—and to set up machinery that is structured and that has the strength to ensure that there is genuine co-operation and co-ordination of attack and progress. These are sensitive, key areas of policy and I look forward to seeing that working and to making progress.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Administration regards this as an issue of considerable importance. New ministerial committees on rural development, drugs, social inclusion and the creation of digital Scotland will soon be in operation. One of the failures of the past has been that we have talked a great deal about cross-cutting but we have not made it as effective as we would have liked. I have been in office and must take some of the blame for this. The new Parliament and the new Administration have an opportunity to pick areas of the kind that I mentioned—areas that genuinely straddle the portfolios of a number of ministers—and to set up machinery that is structured and that has the strength to ensure that there is genuine co-operation and co-ordination of attack and progress. These are sensitive, key areas of policy and I look forward to seeing that working and to making progress.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C705928", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26710, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 143.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26711, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 144.0, "QuestionHeading": "Integrated Government", "QuestionHeadingID": 26714, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 187.0, "DisplayOrder": 187.0, "ID": 26714, "ParentID": 26711 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Keith Raffan (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 196.0, "ContributionID": 705928, "EditedText": "Does the First Minister agree that, while the Executive wants to improve cross-cutting, the onus is also on the parliamentary committees to develop sub-committees and working groups, particularly on the issue of drug misuse? Bearing it in mind that some committees, such as the Social Inclusion, Housing and Voluntary Sector Committee, have a very broad remit, members of such a working group could be drawn from the Health and Community Care Committee, the Education, Culture and Sport Committee, the Justice and Home Affairs Committee and the Social Inclusion, Housing and Voluntary Sector Committee. Sub-committees and working groups need to be set up as soon as possible to address issues such as drug misuse effectively.", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the First Minister agree that, while the Executive wants to improve cross-cutting, the onus is also on the parliamentary committees to develop sub-committees and working groups, particularly on the issue of drug misuse? Bearing it in mind that some committees, such as the Social Inclusion, Housing and Voluntary Sector Committee, have a very broad remit, members of such a working group could be drawn from the Health and Community Care Committee, the Education, Culture and Sport Committee, the Justice and Home Affairs Committee and the Social Inclusion, Housing and Voluntary Sector Committee. Sub-committees and working groups need to be set up as soon as possible to address issues such as drug misuse effectively.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C705930", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26710, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 143.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26711, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 144.0, "QuestionHeading": "Integrated Government", "QuestionHeadingID": 26714, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 187.0, "DisplayOrder": 187.0, "ID": 26714, "ParentID": 26711 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 200.0, "ContributionID": 705930, "EditedText": "Bearing in mind the principle of cross-departmental co-operation, will the First Minister speak to the Secretary of State for Social Security about the holiday trap in which school cleaning, catering and clerical staff have found themselves? Staff have suddenly been denied benefit for the summer holiday period because there is a date in their contracts—12 August—for starting back at school. Surely, these people are either entitled to benefit, as has always been the case during the summer, or they are entitled to holiday pay from the devolved Administration.", "EditedTextHTML": "Bearing in mind the principle of cross-departmental co-operation, will the First Minister speak to the Secretary of State for Social Security about the holiday trap in which school cleaning, catering and clerical staff have found themselves? Staff have suddenly been denied benefit for the summer holiday period because there is a date in their contracts—12 August—for starting back at school. Surely, these people are either entitled to benefit, as has always been the case during the summer, or they are entitled to holiday pay from the devolved Administration.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C705931", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26710, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 143.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26711, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 144.0, "QuestionHeading": "Integrated Government", "QuestionHeadingID": 26714, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 187.0, "DisplayOrder": 187.0, "ID": 26714, "ParentID": 26711 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 202.0, "ContributionID": 705931, "EditedText": "Social security is not a direct responsibility of this chamber. Although I recognise that Mr Neil has been elected only recently, I am astonished to hear him say that this is a sudden and unexpected problem. I have been aware of it for a considerable period of time. The rules are complex. As Mr Neil no doubt knows, a lot has been going on behind the scenes in the social security world and some settlements have been reached. However, I agree that there are important issues to do with definition. Members of Parliament at Westminster, who have the particular constituency responsibility, will no doubt be corresponding about and examining this issue for a considerable time.", "EditedTextHTML": "Social security is not a direct responsibility of this chamber. Although I recognise that Mr Neil has been elected only recently, I am astonished to hear him say that this is a sudden and unexpected problem. I have been aware of it for a considerable period of time. The rules are complex. As Mr Neil no doubt knows, a lot has been going on behind the scenes in the social security world and some settlements have been reached. However, I agree that there are important issues to do with definition. Members of Parliament at Westminster, who have the particular constituency responsibility, will no doubt be corresponding about and examining this issue for a considerable time.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C705932", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26710, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 143.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26711, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 144.0, "QuestionHeading": "Integrated Government", "QuestionHeadingID": 26714, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 187.0, "DisplayOrder": 187.0, "ID": 26714, "ParentID": 26711 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 204.0, "ContributionID": 705932, "EditedText": "Has the First Minister given much thought to implementation costs? To improve services we must ensure that we achieve best value for the money available. The massive increase in the number of ministerial positions and the escalating costs for the new Parliament building will put an added drain on the funds available. Will he comment?", "EditedTextHTML": "Has the First Minister given much thought to implementation costs? To improve services we must ensure that we achieve best value for the money available. The massive increase in the number of ministerial positions and the escalating costs for the new Parliament building will put an added drain on the funds available. Will he comment?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C705940", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan (Glasgow) (SSP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 222.0, "ContributionID": 705940, "EditedText": "First, does the minister agree that council tax is one of the most regressive forms of taxation and that a fairer, local government income tax is required to redistribute some of the massive wealth that exists in our country? Secondly, will she explain why, among all the recommendations in the McIntosh report, the recommendation for an immediate independent inquiry into local government finance has been completely and utterly fudged?", "EditedTextHTML": "First, does the minister agree that council tax is one of the most regressive forms of taxation and that a fairer, local government income tax is required to redistribute some of the massive wealth that exists in our country? Secondly, will she explain why, among all the recommendations in the McIntosh report, the recommendation for an immediate independent inquiry into local government finance has been completely and utterly fudged?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C705943", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 228.0, "ContributionID": 705943, "EditedText": "My recollection is that, as a result of the reorganisation enforced on local government, we have ended up with 32 local authorities. We have no desire to have 32 water bodies. We have three, and we have taken steps to put many more councillors on those bodies. I remind Richard Lochhead that, unlike in England, water remains in the public sector in Scotland. On his second point, there is an interesting issue at root: how to encourage more people to stand for public office, and the sort of scrutiny that exists of the individuals who stand and who are appointed. In my speech, I said that we expect public bodies to continue to play a major role, but we are anxious that the people who take up appointments to them are subject to the same form of scrutiny as people who stand for directly elected office.", "EditedTextHTML": "My recollection is that, as a result of the reorganisation enforced on local government, we have ended up with 32 local authorities. We have no desire to have 32 water bodies. We have three, and we have taken steps to put many more councillors on those bodies. I remind Richard Lochhead that, unlike in England, water remains in the public sector in Scotland. On his second point, there is an interesting issue at root: how to encourage more people to stand for public office, and the sort of scrutiny that exists of the individuals who stand and who are appointed. In my speech, I said that we expect public bodies to continue to play a major role, but we are anxious that the people who take up appointments to them are subject to the same form of scrutiny as people who stand for directly elected office.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C705950", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 242.0, "ContributionID": 705950, "EditedText": "No. Do you want to ask a question?", "EditedTextHTML": "No. Do you want to ask a question?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2029E47P167C705951", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Henry, Hugh", "ID": 2029, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Hugh Henry", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Hugh Henry: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 244.0, "ContributionID": 705951, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C705956", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 254.0, "ContributionID": 705956, "EditedText": "I appreciate Kenny's welcome of the statement that we have issued. We very much hope that the spirit in which we have approached the McIntosh commission's report is an example of the new politics in Scotland. I think that there can be some measure of cross-party agreement on a wide range of areas. More important, there can be agreement with our colleagues in local government. The issue of refusing to sanction an independent review arose in response to Mr Sheridan's question. We believe that it is for this Parliament to act on issues of finance, and we have laid out a wide-ranging programme to examine the distribution committee capital, the revaluation and a whole set of modernising reforms in finance. I have made it clear that we will involve many independent experts, but we feel very strongly that it is wholly inappropriate simply to out-source the financial relationship between this Parliament and local government. Mr Gibson asked for an assurance that we would implement, by 2002, the recommendations of the working party on proportional representation. I cannot give him that assurance, partly because, as I said in my statement, we are particularly attracted by the idea of moving to a four-year term. As he will know, that is something for which COSLA has long argued. Thirdly, on the point about the internal relationships in COSLA and the issue of political whipping, it seems to me that, in keeping with the spirit of self-renewal that we are encouraging, although the Executive would be supportive of COSLA's organisation of its internal affairs, it would be inappropriate for me to comment on the matter at this stage. I am sorry; what was Mr Gibson's final point?", "EditedTextHTML": "I appreciate Kenny's welcome of the statement that we have issued. We very much hope that the spirit in which we have approached the McIntosh commission's report is an example of the new politics in Scotland. I think that there can be some measure of cross-party agreement on a wide range of areas. More important, there can be agreement with our colleagues in local government.

The issue of refusing to sanction an independent review arose in response to Mr Sheridan's question. We believe that it is for this Parliament to act on issues of finance, and we have laid out a wide-ranging programme to examine the distribution committee capital, the revaluation and a whole set of modernising reforms in finance. I have made it clear that we will involve many independent experts, but we feel very strongly that it is wholly inappropriate simply to out-source the financial relationship between this Parliament and local government.

Mr Gibson asked for an assurance that we would implement, by 2002, the recommendations of the working party on proportional representation. I cannot give him that assurance, partly because, as I said in my statement, we are particularly attracted by the idea of moving to a four-year term. As he will know, that is something for which COSLA has long argued.

Thirdly, on the point about the internal relationships in COSLA and the issue of political whipping, it seems to me that, in keeping with the spirit of self-renewal that we are encouraging, although the Executive would be supportive of COSLA's organisation of its internal affairs, it would be inappropriate for me to comment on the matter at this stage.

I am sorry; what was Mr Gibson's final point?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C705959", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 260.0, "ContributionID": 705959, "EditedText": "Thank you. The debate will run until noon. Members should make their speeches as brief as they can, so that we can allow as many members as possible to take part. Having said that, I now call Mr Kenny Gibson to reply for the Opposition.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you. The debate will run until noon. Members should make their speeches as brief as they can, so that we can allow as many members as possible to take part. Having said that, I now call Mr Kenny Gibson to reply for the Opposition.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C705962", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 267.0, "ContributionID": 705962, "EditedText": "Not yet. Wait. Laughter.", "EditedTextHTML": "Not yet. Wait. [Laughter.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1973E119P326C705965", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gorrie, Donald", "ID": 1973, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Donald Gorrie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Donald Gorrie (Central Scotland) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 275.0, "ContributionID": 705965, "EditedText": "On behalf of the Liberal Democrat group in the Parliament and our many council groups, I warmly welcome the McIntosh report. I do not think that I have ever read a public document that hit so many nails so firmly on the head, and we strongly support it. We also support the general thrust of the minister's statement in support of local government and welcome many of the things she suggested. There is a huge opportunity for a major reform of local government by consensus. We have learned from the past the dangers of major reform without consensus. I welcome the tenor of the first meeting of the Local Government Committee—I am sure that it will do a lot of good work. It shows that even rebels can sook when required. On a more serious note, we welcome the consensus in the committee on the need for many of the reforms supported by the McIntosh commission, and its feeling of independence. It can play an important role, separate from the Government. We must support local government and, as the minister said, encourage it and try to restore its self-esteem. It has come in for a lot of criticism. There is a problem in that, for understandable human reasons, civil servants who advise ministers think that they are competent whereas local government is not. I am sure that many civil servants are extremely competent, but when we examine the record, local government has no disasters that are in the same league as the poll tax, the child support agency, the benefit system or the inability to issue passports. There might be disasters or incompetencies on particular issues and, as in any human organisation, some people are not up to scratch, but the competence of a huge amount of local government is very high. We welcome the ideas of self-review, finding local solutions to local problems and finding more decentralisation within councils. We support the idea of publicising and learning from good practice in local government. There is too much reinventing the wheel; a lot of good work goes on and people could learn from each other. We also make a clear statement that this Parliament and, I hope, this Executive, has no intention of stealing powers from local government. Local government has a genuine fear about that. Like some members who have already spoken, I was disappointed in the iffiness of the minister's remarks about general competence and the ability of some employees to stand as councillors. The issue of general competence is recognised across Europe; there is such a power in many countries and it is sensible that local government be enabled to do anything for the benefit of the local community that is not illegal or not already done statutorily by some other body. As regards employees standing as councillors, the idea that a schoolteacher, or middle-ranking official of some sort, will somehow pervert the whole system to promote his or her career is a load of rubbish. In many large rural areas, such people represent a reservoir of potential talent that we are not allowed to use. Our party is very keen on the issues of general competence and, with appropriate safeguards, allowing employees to stand as councillors. The two pillars on which local government should rest are democracy and accountability. Democracy involves making it easier to vote and having a fairer voting system. We will be very happy to take part in debates and education on proportional representation, which is not as complicated as people like to make out. However, I served under a previous party leader who did not understand the voting system at all; ignorance is not confined to other parties.", "EditedTextHTML": "On behalf of the Liberal Democrat group in the Parliament and our many council groups, I warmly welcome the McIntosh report. I do not think that I have ever read a public document that hit so many nails so firmly on the head, and we strongly support it.

We also support the general thrust of the minister's statement in support of local government and welcome many of the things she suggested. There is a huge opportunity for a major reform of local government by consensus. We have learned from the past the dangers of major reform without consensus. I welcome the tenor of the first meeting of the Local Government Committee—I am sure that it will do a lot of good work. It shows that even rebels can sook when required.

On a more serious note, we welcome the consensus in the committee on the need for many of the reforms supported by the McIntosh commission, and its feeling of independence. It can play an important role, separate from the Government. We must support local government and, as the minister said, encourage it and try to restore its self-esteem. It has come in for a lot of criticism.

There is a problem in that, for understandable human reasons, civil servants who advise ministers think that they are competent whereas local government is not. I am sure that many civil servants are extremely competent, but when we examine the record, local government has no disasters that are in the same league as the poll tax, the child support agency, the benefit system or the inability to issue passports. There might be disasters or incompetencies on particular issues and, as in any human organisation, some people are not up to scratch, but the competence of a huge amount of local government is very high.

We welcome the ideas of self-review, finding local solutions to local problems and finding more decentralisation within councils. We support the idea of publicising and learning from good practice in local government. There is too much reinventing the wheel; a lot of good work goes on and people could learn from each other.

We also make a clear statement that this Parliament and, I hope, this Executive, has no intention of stealing powers from local government. Local government has a genuine fear about that.

Like some members who have already spoken, I was disappointed in the iffiness of the minister's remarks about general competence and the ability of some employees to stand as councillors. The issue of general competence is recognised across Europe; there is such a power in many countries and it is sensible that local government be enabled to do anything for the benefit of the local community that is not illegal or not already done statutorily by some other body.

As regards employees standing as councillors, the idea that a schoolteacher, or middle-ranking official of some sort, will somehow pervert the whole system to promote his or her career is a load of rubbish. In many large rural areas, such people represent a reservoir of potential talent that we are not allowed to use. Our party is very keen on the issues of general competence and, with appropriate safeguards, allowing employees to stand as councillors.

The two pillars on which local government should rest are democracy and accountability. Democracy involves making it easier to vote and having a fairer voting system. We will be very happy to take part in debates and education on proportional representation, which is not as complicated as people like to make out. However, I served under a previous party leader who did not understand the voting system at all; ignorance is not confined to other parties.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C705966", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan (Falkirk West): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 277.0, "ContributionID": 705966, "EditedText": "Who wasthat?", "EditedTextHTML": "Who was

that?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1926E190P479C705970", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Adam, Brian", "ID": 1926, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Adam", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Brian Adam (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 286.0, "ContributionID": 705970, "EditedText": "I would also like to start by welcoming much of what the Minister for Communities said. I welcome her positive response to the idea of a four-year cycle. In winding up, will she tell us whether she is in sympathy with the idea of general competence? She did not give any indication of where her sympathies lie on that or whether she is sympathetic to introducing a system of PR. Despite what we have heard through the media about the Government's view on PR, if one looks closely at her statement, it does not say whether she is sympathetic. Although the statement refers to the formation of the working party that McIntosh recommends, it does not suggest that its remit or direction will arrive at PR. I welcome unreservedly the McIntosh report in its entirety. It reflects not only the majority view in Scottish local government but the views of the electorate. As Mr Gibson said, I hope that we will not have any delays, especially in the areas where there is clear-cut agreement, so that implementation takes place as soon as possible. I am a little concerned by some of the comments made on PR since the McIntosh report was released. Some councillors seem to resent intervention from an outside body. It is almost as if some of our council barons have adapted the idea of the divine right of kings to the modern age. They seem to believe that no one knows better than they do how to run local government and that they have a divine right to do it, and they will brook no interference in their traditional role, which is to tell us what to do and what kind of services we will get. Like the great political dinosaurs of the past, they refuse to accept that times have moved on. We should be in no doubt that the political mood in Scotland has changed and for the better. We have moved on from choosing between Tweedledum and Tweedledee, when the first-pastthe- post system was acceptable. These days, Tweedledum does not seem to attract much support from Scottish voters. Members who have studied the results of the past four elections will have no doubt that we are now firmly in the realm of four-party politics—indeed, after the most recent election, we are moving on to five or six parties. I welcome that, because it reflects the political diversity in our society. Political pluralism is healthy for democracy. The age-old adage that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely is borne out whenever political parties gain huge majorities on the back of minority support. There can be no doubt that one of the reasons why McIntosh put PR at the top of the political agenda is the abuse of power and the appearance of political corruption that flows from that abuse in certain great former Labour fiefdoms in west central Scotland, which does no credit to politics. I have heard some Labour politicians say that they have already given up too much. They point to SNP members and say that without their grace and favour in introducing PR, the SNP would have only a fraction of the seats that it currently holds. They point to the Tories and say that without Labour's grace and favour they would not have been here at all. Without PR, I doubt whether any of us would be here today. That kind of agreement was required to achieve the referendum result.", "EditedTextHTML": "I would also like to start by welcoming much of what the Minister for Communities said. I welcome her positive response to the idea of a four-year cycle. In winding up, will she tell us whether she is in sympathy with the idea of general competence? She did not give any indication of where her sympathies lie on that or whether she is sympathetic to introducing a system of PR. Despite what we have heard through the media about the Government's view on PR, if one looks closely at her statement, it does not say whether she is sympathetic. Although the statement refers to the formation of the working party that McIntosh recommends, it does not suggest that its remit or direction will arrive at PR.

I welcome unreservedly the McIntosh report in its entirety. It reflects not only the majority view in Scottish local government but the views of the electorate. As Mr Gibson said, I hope that we will not have any delays, especially in the areas where there is clear-cut agreement, so that implementation takes place as soon as possible.

I am a little concerned by some of the comments made on PR since the McIntosh report was released. Some councillors seem to resent intervention from an outside body. It is almost as if some of our council barons have adapted the idea of the divine right of kings to the modern age. They seem to believe that no one knows better than they do how to run local government and that they have a divine right to do it, and they will brook no interference in their traditional role, which is to tell us what to do and what kind of services we will get. Like the great political dinosaurs of the past, they refuse to accept that times have moved on.

We should be in no doubt that the political mood in Scotland has changed and for the better. We have moved on from choosing between Tweedledum and Tweedledee, when the first-pastthe- post system was acceptable. These days, Tweedledum does not seem to attract much support from Scottish voters. Members who have studied the results of the past four elections will have no doubt that we are now firmly in the realm of four-party politics—indeed, after the most recent election, we are moving on to five or six parties. I welcome that, because it reflects the political diversity in our society. Political pluralism is healthy for democracy. The age-old adage that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely is borne out whenever political parties gain huge majorities on the back of minority support. There can be no doubt that one of the reasons why McIntosh put PR at the top of the political agenda is the abuse of power and the appearance of political corruption that flows from that abuse in certain great former Labour fiefdoms in west central Scotland, which does no credit to politics.

I have heard some Labour politicians say that they have already given up too much. They point to SNP members and say that without their grace and favour in introducing PR, the SNP would have only a fraction of the seats that it currently holds. They point to the Tories and say that without Labour's grace and favour they would not have been here at all. Without PR, I doubt whether any of us would be here today. That kind of agreement

was required to achieve the referendum result.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C705978", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 302.0, "ContributionID": 705978, "EditedText": "I indicated earlier that it might be necessary to put a time limit on speeches in the debate. Unfortunately, there will now have be a time limit of three minutes per speech.", "EditedTextHTML": "I indicated earlier that it might be necessary to put a time limit on speeches in the debate. Unfortunately, there will now have be a time limit of three minutes per speech.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1970E66P288C705987", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNulty, Des", "ID": 1970, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Clydebank and Milngavie" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Des McNulty", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Des McNulty: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 323.0, "ContributionID": 705987, "EditedText": "Secondly, I want to highlight a weakness in the McIntosh report, in paragraphs 60 to 62, which deal with local government and the wider public sector. We should work from the presumption that local government, properly accountable to local people, should meet local needs. If it is in the public interest that an appointed body should deliver a function rather than local government, the justification for that choice should be made against well-understood criteria. I welcome the fact that there will be a periodic review. However, we should start from the principle that local democracy is crucial to the management of public services. As someone who has served on a health board as well as in local government, I am certain that the management of health service provision should be done by the health service rather than by local government. However, there must be a much closer relationship between health services and local government services. For years, previous Governments denied any links between health and poverty. In doing so, they inhibited effective action on health by councils, the services of which could make a huge contribution to the improvement of health standards. Representation is not enough: we need joint working, more imaginative ways of working and recognition of the leading role of local government in co-ordinating the planning of services across the locality. Partnership arrangements have done much to achieve that, but we need to move further.", "EditedTextHTML": "Secondly, I want to highlight a weakness in the McIntosh report, in paragraphs 60 to 62, which deal with local government and the wider public sector. We should work from the presumption that local government, properly accountable to local people, should meet local needs. If it is in the public interest that an appointed body should deliver a function rather than local government, the justification for that choice should be made against well-understood criteria.

I welcome the fact that there will be a periodic review. However, we should start from the principle that local democracy is crucial to the management of public services. As someone who has served on a health board as well as in local government, I am certain that the management of health service provision should be done by the health service rather than by local government.

However, there must be a much closer relationship between health services and local government services. For years, previous Governments denied any links between health and poverty. In doing so, they inhibited effective action on health by councils, the services of which could make a huge contribution to the improvement of health standards. Representation is not enough: we need joint working, more imaginative ways of working and recognition of the leading role of local government in co-ordinating the planning of services across the locality. Partnership arrangements have done much to achieve that, but we need to move further.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C705990", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 329.0, "ContributionID": 705990, "EditedText": "Please be brief.", "EditedTextHTML": "Please be brief.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2123E103P242C705994", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Chisholm, Malcolm", "ID": 2123, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh North and Leith" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Malcolm Chisholm", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 340.0, "ContributionID": 705994, "EditedText": "I welcome both the minister's statement and her robust defence of the socialist principle of property tax and of the democratic principle of decisions about local government finance being made here. In line with that, I hope that the McIntosh commission's recommendations will be seen not as set in stone, but as a useful starting point for the debate on the renewal of local democracy. We should all record our thanks to the commission. Having been the local government minister in its gestation, I probably should not say that the commission was well chosen and had a well-defined double-pronged remit, but I will anyway. The first part of its remit has been brilliantly discharged in the assertion of the principle of power sharing and in the recommendations of a covenant and a joint conference. Although the commission establishes subsidiarity as the fundamental principle, that does not mean that we should not give strategic direction to local government. More controversially, I believe that money should be ring-fenced for vital projects such as the carers strategy and the strategy against violence against women. I feel some disappointment with the second part of the commission's remit about responding to people. I welcome the report's recommendations on community councils, as there are many excellent ones in my constituency. I also welcome the minister's statement that we need to go much further in involving local communities in local decisions. We have to start with the fundamental principle of a more responsive local government with a strengthened role for local councillors as representatives and champions of local people. All local groups—such as tenants groups, community groups and community councils—must be involved in that. It is in the light of that fundamental principle that I hope that the debate about executives and PR systems will take place, because some of those systems make for less responsive local government. I hope that we will have a full and frank debate about that. If we are going to have an executive system there has to be, as the commission admits, a different kind of whipping system so that back-bench councillors can put forward the views of their communities. I am glad that the commission has recommended that and hope that the Executive will take it on board. With more proportional systems we must preserve the link between a councillor and an area; a closed list PR system, for example, would result in far more power going to parties, with councillors becoming far less responsive to local communities.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome both the minister's statement and her robust defence of the socialist principle of property tax and of the democratic principle of decisions about local government finance being made here. In line with that, I hope that the McIntosh commission's recommendations will be seen not as set in stone, but as a useful starting point for the debate on the renewal of local democracy.

We should all record our thanks to the commission. Having been the local government minister in its gestation, I probably should not say that the commission was well chosen and had a well-defined double-pronged remit, but I will anyway. The first part of its remit has been brilliantly discharged in the assertion of the principle of power sharing and in the

recommendations of a covenant and a joint conference. Although the commission establishes subsidiarity as the fundamental principle, that does not mean that we should not give strategic direction to local government. More controversially, I believe that money should be ring-fenced for vital projects such as the carers strategy and the strategy against violence against women.

I feel some disappointment with the second part of the commission's remit about responding to people. I welcome the report's recommendations on community councils, as there are many excellent ones in my constituency. I also welcome the minister's statement that we need to go much further in involving local communities in local decisions. We have to start with the fundamental principle of a more responsive local government with a strengthened role for local councillors as representatives and champions of local people. All local groups—such as tenants groups, community groups and community councils—must be involved in that.

It is in the light of that fundamental principle that I hope that the debate about executives and PR systems will take place, because some of those systems make for less responsive local government. I hope that we will have a full and frank debate about that. If we are going to have an executive system there has to be, as the commission admits, a different kind of whipping system so that back-bench councillors can put forward the views of their communities. I am glad that the commission has recommended that and hope that the Executive will take it on board.

With more proportional systems we must preserve the link between a councillor and an area; a closed list PR system, for example, would result in far more power going to parties, with councillors becoming far less responsive to local communities.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C705995", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Alex Salmond (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 342.0, "ContributionID": 705995, "EditedText": "Given that the McIntosh commission was so expertly chosen and had such wise people on it, will Mr Chisholm accept that those wise people must believe that there is a substantial argument in favour of the recommendation that local government elections should be held between national elections rather than on the same day as them?", "EditedTextHTML": "Given that the McIntosh commission was so expertly chosen and had such wise people on it, will Mr Chisholm accept that those wise people must believe that there is a substantial argument in favour of the recommendation that local government elections should be held between national elections rather than on the same day as them?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2123E103P242C705996", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Chisholm, Malcolm", "ID": 2123, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh North and Leith" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Malcolm Chisholm", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Malcolm Chisholm: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 344.0, "ContributionID": 705996, "EditedText": "I do not think that that is one of the commission's fundamental recommendations. However, I support it because I agree that it is important that people should focus on local government in local government elections. In the recent local government elections, people focused on the Scottish Parliament. We should approach all the recommendations with an open mind. The McIntosh commission has given us an excellent foundation. I hope that the Local Government Committee and this chamber will be able to have a full, frank and open debate about its recommendations so that we renew democracy at a local level, just as we intend to renew it at this national level.", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not think that that is one of the commission's fundamental recommendations. However, I support it because I agree that it is important that people should focus on local government in local government elections. In the recent local government elections, people focused on the Scottish Parliament.

We should approach all the recommendations with an open mind. The McIntosh commission has given us an excellent foundation. I hope that the Local Government Committee and this chamber will be able to have a full, frank and open debate about its recommendations so that we renew democracy at a local level, just as we intend to renew it at this national level.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2185E120P328C705997", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Brown, Robert", "ID": 2185, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robert Brown", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robert Brown (Glasgow) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 347.0, "ContributionID": 705997, "EditedText": "I, too, welcome the McIntosh commission report and Wendy Alexander's speech in support of it. Her speech was stylish but I am bound to say that, as one listened to the detail and examined it afterwards, the substance appeared to retreat a little. On the voluntary sector, we live in a pluralist society and the aims of the Executive and of the commission are to enhance that part of it. That means not only working with local government but making sure that the voluntary sector in Scottish society is enhanced and protected. Over the years, I have had some involvement with citizens advice bureaux. An awful lot of the time of the management committees of those bodies—and many others, I am sure—is taken up with complicated negotiations with local government and central Government to secure core funding. An example of that—it has been in the press during the past few days—is the Bath Street CAB, which faces a major financial crisis. It is important that we protect the financial structures and organisational independence of the voluntary sector. If the sector has an agenda that does not quite fit the objectives of central and local government, it is important that we recognise that that agenda is equally valid; it should not affect its financial support. The issue of long-term financial support for local government has been mentioned. I support the comments made by Donald Gorrie and others that, as well as changes in the short term, we need a longer-term review of the system of local government finance. An awful lot of fluff is talked about proportional representation; indeed, we heard some from Des McNulty earlier. We need accountable local authorities—accountability means that we must be able to get shot of them when they do not do their job. It is no doubt purely by accident that Labour has controlled the vast bulk of authorities in Scotland over the past few years. There have been all sorts of difficulties in one or two of them. There have been some good ones and some bad ones but, under the current system, there is an inability to get rid of any of them. Some PR systems are better than others. We need a system, such as the single transferable vote, which retains the local link with the councillor and allows the elector to choose who is to speak for them; it also allows an element of independence and breaks any excessive party rule. Unless that central issue is dealt with, we will have problems in taking seriously some of the other issues. Against that background, the failure today by the Executive to give an assurance that there will be legislation on PR before the next local government elections is a major fault in the Government's proposals.", "EditedTextHTML": "I, too, welcome the McIntosh commission report and Wendy Alexander's speech in support of it. Her speech was stylish but I am bound to say that, as one listened to the detail and examined it afterwards, the substance appeared to retreat a little.

On the voluntary sector, we live in a pluralist society and the aims of the Executive and of the commission are to enhance that part of it. That means not only working with local government but making sure that the voluntary sector in Scottish society is enhanced and protected.

Over the years, I have had some involvement with citizens advice bureaux. An awful lot of the time of the management committees of those bodies—and many others, I am sure—is taken up with complicated negotiations with local government and central Government to secure core funding. An example of that—it has been in the press during the past few days—is the Bath Street CAB, which faces a major financial crisis. It is important that we protect the financial structures and organisational independence of the voluntary sector. If the sector has an agenda that does not quite fit the objectives of central and local government, it is important that we recognise that that agenda is equally valid; it should not affect its financial support.

The issue of long-term financial support for local government has been mentioned. I support the comments made by Donald Gorrie and others that, as well as changes in the short term, we need a longer-term review of the system of local government finance.

An awful lot of fluff is talked about proportional representation; indeed, we heard some from Des McNulty earlier. We need accountable local authorities—accountability means that we must be able to get shot of them when they do not do their job. It is no doubt purely by accident that Labour has controlled the vast bulk of authorities in Scotland over the past few years. There have been all sorts of difficulties in one or two of them. There have been some good ones and some bad ones but, under the current system, there is an inability to get rid of any of them.

Some PR systems are better than others. We need a system, such as the single transferable vote, which retains the local link with the councillor

and allows the elector to choose who is to speak for them; it also allows an element of independence and breaks any excessive party rule.

Unless that central issue is dealt with, we will have problems in taking seriously some of the other issues. Against that background, the failure today by the Executive to give an assurance that there will be legislation on PR before the next local government elections is a major fault in the Government's proposals.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2185E120P328C705999", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Brown, Robert", "ID": 2185, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robert Brown", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robert Brown: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 351.0, "ContributionID": 705999, "EditedText": "I have finished my speech.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have finished my speech.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1778E91P257C706006", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Eadie, Helen", "ID": 1778, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dunfermline East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Helen Eadie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Helen Eadie (Dunfermline East) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 369.0, "ContributionID": 706006, "EditedText": "I congratulate the Minister for Communities on her statement and welcome its sensitivity. I agree with the minister's praise for the McIntosh team and praise also the dedication of the many councillors and officials who were involved in the McIntosh report. Our challenge in this chamber is to demonstrate, against the background of perceived threat, that we are totally committed to local government. Our mission will be to persuade local government that we have an opportunity for a fresh start and that the two organs—local government and the Scottish Parliament—can work together in real partnership. I welcome the minister's emphasis on renewal rather than legislative change and support Donald Gorrie's comment about building on consensus, which is vital. From what the minister said and the way in which she said it, I sense that she understands and is sensitive to the issues that confront local authorities. Our mission will be to reassure local authorities that we recognise that what makes them different from other agencies makes them unique: the fact that local authorities are elected and can claim the same democratic mandate as this Parliament; the fact that they have the power to tax, albeit that they are constrained from doing so in various ways, and that that power requires accountability through the ballot box, setting local authorities apart from every other body except Government; and the fact that local authorities are multipurpose and provide a uniquely wide range of services to the community. Local authorities perceive significant, imminent change as a threat. They see the Parliament as an institution that will further erode their autonomy. Proportional representation must acknowledge the different views across Scotland. I share Des McNulty's concern. However, I believe that if there is an open, honest and transparent debate, council members will accept the wisdom of this Parliament. There is one key omission from the McIntosh report. We have made the connections between the Scottish Parliament and local government, but we have failed to set up connections with the Westminster Parliament and the European Parliament. There has been major apathy towards Europe across Scotland. Europe controls and influences our lives a great deal. While I welcome the McIntosh report, I hope that this Parliament will go beyond it and address such issues. Finally, finance is critical. Within two or three years, the point will be reached in the area of Fife in which I was a councillor where there is absolutely no capital for various capital projects.", "EditedTextHTML": "I congratulate the Minister for Communities on her statement and welcome its sensitivity. I agree with the minister's praise for the McIntosh team and praise also the dedication of the many councillors and officials who were involved in the McIntosh report.

Our challenge in this chamber is to demonstrate, against the background of perceived threat, that we are totally committed to local government. Our mission will be to persuade local government that we have an opportunity for a fresh start and that the two organs—local government and the Scottish Parliament—can work together in real partnership.

I welcome the minister's emphasis on renewal rather than legislative change and support Donald Gorrie's comment about building on consensus, which is vital. From what the minister said and the way in which she said it, I sense that she understands and is sensitive to the issues that confront local authorities.

Our mission will be to reassure local authorities that we recognise that what makes them different

from other agencies makes them unique: the fact that local authorities are elected and can claim the same democratic mandate as this Parliament; the fact that they have the power to tax, albeit that they are constrained from doing so in various ways, and that that power requires accountability through the ballot box, setting local authorities apart from every other body except Government; and the fact that local authorities are multipurpose and provide a uniquely wide range of services to the community.

Local authorities perceive significant, imminent change as a threat. They see the Parliament as an institution that will further erode their autonomy. Proportional representation must acknowledge the different views across Scotland. I share Des McNulty's concern. However, I believe that if there is an open, honest and transparent debate, council members will accept the wisdom of this Parliament.

There is one key omission from the McIntosh report. We have made the connections between the Scottish Parliament and local government, but we have failed to set up connections with the Westminster Parliament and the European Parliament. There has been major apathy towards Europe across Scotland. Europe controls and influences our lives a great deal. While I welcome the McIntosh report, I hope that this Parliament will go beyond it and address such issues.

Finally, finance is critical. Within two or three years, the point will be reached in the area of Fife in which I was a councillor where there is absolutely no capital for various capital projects.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C706007", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 371.0, "ContributionID": 706007, "EditedText": "I apologise to members who have not been called to speak. Members will, however, be aware that that is an area that will be investigated by the Procedures Committee. There is about four minutes each for the Tory and SNP winding-up speeches.", "EditedTextHTML": "I apologise to members who have not been called to speak. Members will, however, be aware that that is an area that will be investigated by the Procedures Committee. There is about four minutes each for the Tory and SNP winding-up speeches.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C706010", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 378.0, "ContributionID": 706010, "EditedText": "Bill Aitken, you are beginning to run out of time.", "EditedTextHTML": "Bill Aitken, you are beginning to run out of time.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2234E7P20C706011", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Aitken, Bill", "ID": 2234, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bill Aitken", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bill Aitken: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 380.0, "ContributionID": 706011, "EditedText": "I do not recall David Mundell contributing to this debate. The point raised by Dr Murray would be a matter for the Parliament. Basically, local government finance is a burning issue that we must consider. If the education function was removed and dealt with here, it would enable local government to concentrate its mind somewhat better than it is able to do at the moment.", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not recall David Mundell contributing to this debate. The point raised by Dr Murray would be a matter for the Parliament. Basically, local government finance is a burning issue that we must consider. If the education function was removed and dealt with here, it would enable local government to concentrate its mind somewhat better than it is able to do at the moment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1996E124P211C706014", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAveety, Mr Frank", "ID": 1996, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Shettleston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Local Government", "SpeakerName": "Frank McAveety", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Local Government (Mr Frank McAveety): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 388.0, "ContributionID": 706014, "EditedText": "I am delighted to be standing here as the surrogate of Wendy Alexander. For the benefit of members I hope to sum up the debate, which I think has been helpful to the response that we must have on McIntosh. Like many others, I pay tribute to the work of Neil and the members of the committees and for their consultation across local government, where I previously existed. I was aware that some members might raise an issue that Mr Crawford raised, which was that we served different roles than those from which we speak today. It is important that that is recognised in the contribution. I am delighted to have served in local government in the largest authority in Scotland. I depend on local government to deliver good- quality services for people like myself and my family, as, I am sure, do many people present today. My experience was in the quiet, non- eventful and placid political culture of Glasgow City Council. I am delighted to hear the consensual comments made by many of my former colleagues but, not surprisingly, Mr Sheridan decided to change—again—and continued with the single transferable speech that he has made on every occasion during his seven years in the city chambers. McIntosh stated that local government serves the people and represents the community. Everyone present welcomes those features of local government. In the ministerial statement we made it clear that we want local government to serve the people and to represent their communities. I hope that local government is up to the challenge and rises to it, and ensures that we work in partnership to make a difference for all Scotland. The issue is not necessarily about delivering services, no matter how important that is at a local level. The issues concern a vision of what local government can achieve—as we have heard today—when it thinks more strategically and in the long term about the needs of its communities, of how it serves the people and how it represents them. For example, it means not just thinking about the housing of the present, but the making of sustainable neighbourhoods for the future. The issue is not about the service that existed previously. As Norman Murray said this week about the concerns of the past 20 years, local government is almost like the drunken relative at the party. However, it will no longer be the drunken relative at the party. We will drink with local government to make a difference for the future. I say that strictly as a teetotaller, Mr Deputy Presiding Officer. I admit that certain other members enjoy themselves much more fully, although they cannot match the enjoyment and excitement of Alex Salmond's household as he watches Ceefax at one o'clock in the morning. Maybe I will try that for enjoyment the next time that I am up for a wee bit of fun. Local government should not only address the problem of poverty, but consider the role that it can play in achieving change. I want to address the main points that Mr Sheridan made, because he made them to me for seven years as a member of City of Glasgow Council. He was wrong throughout that time and he is wrong today. He is not the only person who cares about poverty and deprivation across Scotland. His party received fewer votes in the city of Glasgow even than the Conservatives, yet he claims to represent everyone in Glasgow. He ignores the series of initiatives that the Labour Government has introduced over the past two years to tackle long- term poverty and need. Where was he during the debate about the minimum wage, the working families tax credit—", "EditedTextHTML": "I am delighted to be standing here as the surrogate of Wendy Alexander. For the benefit of members I hope to sum up the debate, which I think has been helpful to the response that we must have on McIntosh.

Like many others, I pay tribute to the work of Neil and the members of the committees and for their consultation across local government, where I previously existed. I was aware that some

members might raise an issue that Mr Crawford raised, which was that we served different roles than those from which we speak today. It is important that that is recognised in the contribution.

I am delighted to have served in local government in the largest authority in Scotland. I depend on local government to deliver good- quality services for people like myself and my family, as, I am sure, do many people present today. My experience was in the quiet, non- eventful and placid political culture of Glasgow City Council. I am delighted to hear the consensual comments made by many of my former colleagues but, not surprisingly, Mr Sheridan decided to change—again—and continued with the single transferable speech that he has made on every occasion during his seven years in the city chambers.

McIntosh stated that local government serves the people and represents the community. Everyone present welcomes those features of local government. In the ministerial statement we made it clear that we want local government to serve the people and to represent their communities. I hope that local government is up to the challenge and rises to it, and ensures that we work in partnership to make a difference for all Scotland.

The issue is not necessarily about delivering services, no matter how important that is at a local level. The issues concern a vision of what local government can achieve—as we have heard today—when it thinks more strategically and in the long term about the needs of its communities, of how it serves the people and how it represents them. For example, it means not just thinking about the housing of the present, but the making of sustainable neighbourhoods for the future.

The issue is not about the service that existed previously. As Norman Murray said this week about the concerns of the past 20 years, local government is almost like the drunken relative at the party. However, it will no longer be the drunken relative at the party. We will drink with local government to make a difference for the future. I say that strictly as a teetotaller, Mr Deputy Presiding Officer. I admit that certain other members enjoy themselves much more fully, although they cannot match the enjoyment and excitement of Alex Salmond's household as he watches Ceefax at one o'clock in the morning. Maybe I will try that for enjoyment the next time that I am up for a wee bit of fun.

Local government should not only address the problem of poverty, but consider the role that it can play in achieving change. I want to address the main points that Mr Sheridan made, because he made them to me for seven years as a member of City of Glasgow Council. He was wrong throughout that time and he is wrong today. He is not the only person who cares about poverty and deprivation across Scotland. His party received fewer votes in the city of Glasgow even than the Conservatives, yet he claims to represent everyone in Glasgow. He ignores the series of initiatives that the Labour Government has introduced over the past two years to tackle long- term poverty and need.

Where was he during the debate about the minimum wage, the working families tax credit—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C706023", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 406.0, "ContributionID": 706023, "EditedText": "They are not working.", "EditedTextHTML": "They are not working.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706027", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Several members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Several members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 414.0, "ContributionID": 706027, "EditedText": "Give way.", "EditedTextHTML": "Give way.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C706033", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Keith Raffan (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 426.0, "ContributionID": 706033, "EditedText": "Will Mr McAveety give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "

Will Mr McAveety give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C706037", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Student Finance (Committee of Inquiry) ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26716, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 432.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 432.0, "ID": 26716, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning (Henry McLeish): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 436.0, "ContributionID": 706037, "EditedText": "I intend, Mr Reid, to be reasonably brief. The history of the issue of student finance is now fairly well documented. There was a lively exchange of views on tuition fees during the general election campaign. On 17 June, this Parliament decided that it wanted to look seriously at all the contextual issues surrounding tuition fees, and we agreed to set up a committee of inquiry: the motion was passed by this Parliament. Today, I hope—for two reasons—that the terms of reference, the time scale and the membership will be accepted. The first is that, in our deliberations, we always distinguish between the institution that we are in and the party political differences that might divide us on certain issues. Passing this motion today will reflect 55 days in the Parliament; it will also reflect that this institution is big enough to say that there are political differences in the Parliament and that we want all those differences to be the subject of an objective examination by an expert committee that this chamber has agreed to set up. The second reason is that the people on the committee have been picked very carefully. In setting up the inquiry, I have met the two education spokespersons of the major opposition parties. That is the first time that that has happened in post-war Britain. I have also talked with Dennis, Tommy and Robin, to try to achieve consensus. Those discussions have been constructive and we have absorbed some of the points that others have made. As the minutes unfold, there will still be outstanding differences, but I appeal to all members to try to establish unity around the committee after those differences have been voiced. That will not mean making concessions, which was my theme when I spoke before; it will mean that 14 people who have the confidence of Scotland and, I hope, the confidence of the Parliament, will be able to get on with a serious piece of work over the next six months. It will illustrate that, after 55 meeting days and a wonderful opening day yesterday, we can progress towards the new politics. The committee is broadly based and reflects diversity in geography and gender. Higher and further education institutions are represented, and an independent element is involved. The committee's task is to take written or oral evidence, and to have a debate to which all organisations will have the opportunity to submit their views. After that, it will rightly be for the whole Parliament to review the committee's findings and to deliberate on what should be done. I hope that all parties can unite around this inquiry. No one who speaks during the next 20 minutes should think that they are making a concession. It is vital that we put that fear aside and get on with the matter that is before us. If we can do that, I hope that we will have six months of debate. Politics is about the general election—that is absolutely right. This Parliament has also had its chance. What is wrong with letting the people loose on this important issue and asking those with an interest in education in every college, university, union and workplace to make their views known? I move,That the Parliament recognises the growing importance to Scotland's society and the economy of lifelong learning, the wide range of circumstances of those engaged in lifelong learning and the widespread concern about how students finance their studies; calls upon the Scottish Executive to appoint urgently an independent committee of inquiry with the following terms of reference and membership to report before the end of 1999, and calls upon the Executive to lay a copy of the Committee's report before the Parliament— Terms of ReferenceTo conduct a comprehensive review of tuition fees and financial support for students normally resident in Scotland participating, part-time or full-time, in further and higher education courses anywhere in the UK; To have regard to the desirability of promoting access to further and higher education, particularly for those groups currently under-represented, while taking account of the need to maintain and to develop quality and standards, and the position of Scottish further and higher education in the wider UK system; To make recommendations for any changes to the current system, and provide costed options where these may require additional resources; To present a report of its finding to the Executive by the end of 1999. MembershipAndrew Cubie (Chair), Morag Alexander, Rowena Arshad, George Bennett, David Bleiman, Eleanor Currie, David Dimmock, Marian Healy, Archie Hunter, Dugald Mackie, Ian Ovens, Heather Sheerin, Professor Maria Slowey, David Welsh.", "EditedTextHTML": "I intend, Mr Reid, to be reasonably brief. The history of the issue of student finance is now fairly well documented. There was a lively exchange of views on tuition fees during the general election campaign. On 17 June, this Parliament decided that it wanted to look seriously at all the contextual issues surrounding tuition fees, and we agreed to set up a committee of inquiry: the motion was passed by this Parliament.

Today, I hope—for two reasons—that the terms of reference, the time scale and the membership will be accepted. The first is that, in our deliberations, we always distinguish between the institution that we are in and the party political differences that might divide us on certain issues. Passing this motion today will reflect 55 days in the Parliament; it will also reflect that this institution is big enough to say that there are political differences in the Parliament and that we want all those differences to be the subject of an objective examination by an expert committee that this chamber has agreed to set up.

The second reason is that the people on the committee have been picked very carefully. In setting up the inquiry, I have met the two education spokespersons of the major opposition parties. That is the first time that that has happened in post-war Britain. I have also talked with Dennis, Tommy and Robin, to try to achieve consensus. Those discussions have been constructive and we have absorbed some of the points that others have made.

As the minutes unfold, there will still be outstanding differences, but I appeal to all members to try to establish unity around the committee after those differences have been voiced. That will not mean making concessions, which was my theme when I spoke before; it will mean that 14 people who have the confidence of Scotland and, I hope, the confidence of the Parliament, will be able to get on with a serious piece of work over the next six months. It will illustrate that, after 55 meeting days and a wonderful opening day yesterday, we can progress towards the new politics.

The committee is broadly based and reflects diversity in geography and gender. Higher and further education institutions are represented, and an independent element is involved. The committee's task is to take written or oral evidence, and to have a debate to which all organisations will have the opportunity to submit their views. After that, it will rightly be for the whole Parliament to review the committee's findings and to deliberate on what should be done.

I hope that all parties can unite around this inquiry. No one who speaks during the next 20 minutes should think that they are making a concession. It is vital that we put that fear aside and get on with the matter that is before us. If we can do that, I hope that we will have six months of debate. Politics is about the general election—that is absolutely right. This Parliament has also had its chance. What is wrong with letting the people loose on this important issue and asking those with an interest in education in every college, university, union and workplace to make their views known?

I move,

That the Parliament recognises the growing importance to Scotland's society and the economy of lifelong learning, the wide range of circumstances of those engaged in lifelong learning and the widespread concern about how students finance their studies; calls upon the Scottish Executive to appoint urgently an independent committee of inquiry with the following terms of reference and membership to report before the end of 1999, and calls upon the Executive to lay a copy of the Committee's report before the Parliament—

Terms of Reference

To conduct a comprehensive review of tuition fees and financial support for students normally resident in Scotland participating, part-time or full-time, in further and higher education courses anywhere in the UK;

To have regard to the desirability of promoting access to further and higher education, particularly for those groups currently under-represented, while taking account of the need to maintain and to develop quality and standards, and the position of Scottish further and higher education in the wider UK system;

To make recommendations for any changes to the current system, and provide costed options where these may require additional resources;

To present a report of its finding to the Executive by the end of 1999.

Membership

Andrew Cubie (Chair), Morag Alexander, Rowena Arshad, George Bennett, David Bleiman, Eleanor Currie, David Dimmock, Marian Healy, Archie Hunter, Dugald Mackie, Ian Ovens, Heather Sheerin, Professor Maria Slowey, David Welsh.

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" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C706042", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Student Finance (Committee of Inquiry) ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26716, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 432.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 432.0, "ID": 26716, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister (Donald Dewar): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 448.0, "ContributionID": 706042, "EditedText": "Stop smiling.", "EditedTextHTML": "Stop smiling.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C706059", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Student Finance (Committee of Inquiry) ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26716, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 432.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 432.0, "ID": 26716, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 484.0, "ContributionID": 706059, "EditedText": "No, I am not giving way Alex.It comes back to the main stream of politics, because politics is about policies and resources, which it is clear the inquiry will address. I believe that the Executive has attempted to be constructive—the comments have reflected that and I welcome them. On the other hand, we as parliamentarians should never be afraid of putting big issues out for consideration and coming back to the Parliament and the Executive to take the final decisions. My final point relates to the time scale. Other members have made the point about next year's university applications. I have tried to balance that important issue with the need for a comprehensive inquiry. Six months may seem too short in some people's eyes, but it achieves a balance between having a comprehensive committee of inquiry and providing an important opportunity to acknowledge the politics of the matter.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I am not giving way Alex.

It comes back to the main stream of politics, because politics is about policies and resources, which it is clear the inquiry will address. I believe that the Executive has attempted to be constructive—the comments have reflected that and I welcome them. On the other hand, we as parliamentarians should never be afraid of putting big issues out for consideration and coming back to the Parliament and the Executive to take the final decisions.

My final point relates to the time scale. Other members have made the point about next year's university applications. I have tried to balance that important issue with the need for a comprehensive inquiry. Six months may seem too short in some people's eyes, but it achieves a balance between having a comprehensive committee of inquiry and providing an important opportunity to acknowledge the politics of the matter.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C706062", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Student Finance (Committee of Inquiry) ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26716, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 432.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 432.0, "ID": 26716, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 490.0, "ContributionID": 706062, "EditedText": "On a point of order. In view of the debate, can we have a vote on the amendment in my name?", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. In view of the debate, can we have a vote on the amendment in my name?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C706064", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Student Finance (Committee of Inquiry) ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26716, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 432.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 432.0, "ID": 26716, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 494.0, "ContributionID": 706064, "EditedText": "Before we move to any decisions, I would like to raise a point of order on the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association. I understand that the deadline on joining the CPA is the middle of July. Next year, the Commonwealth nations will meet in either London or Edinburgh. Could you, as the Presiding Officer, seek information on an application to join and take that forward in the coming weeks?", "EditedTextHTML": "Before we move to any decisions, I would like to raise a point of order on the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association. I understand that the deadline on joining the CPA is the middle of July. Next year, the Commonwealth nations will meet in either London or Edinburgh. Could you, as the Presiding Officer, seek information on an application to join and take that forward in the coming weeks?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706065", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Student Finance (Committee of Inquiry) ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26716, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 432.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 432.0, "ID": 26716, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 496.0, "ContributionID": 706065, "EditedText": "That is not a point of order. The CPA is writing formally to me—that matter can go before the bureau or the corporate body during the recess. I am sure that the Parliament will wish us to progress that matter and meet any deadline that exists. Committee Membership", "EditedTextHTML": "That is not a point of order. The CPA is writing formally to me—that matter can go before the bureau or the corporate body during the recess. I am sure that the Parliament will wish us to progress that matter and meet any deadline that exists.

Committee Membership

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706067", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Student Finance (Committee of Inquiry) ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26716, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 432.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 432.0, "ID": 26716, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 499.0, "ContributionID": 706067, "EditedText": "That the Parliament approves the addition of Tommy Sheridan to the membership of the Equal Opportunities Committee and the addition of Dennis Canavan to the membership of the European Committee.—Mr McCabe.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament approves the addition of Tommy Sheridan to the membership of the Equal Opportunities Committee and the addition of Dennis Canavan to the membership of the European Committee.—[Mr McCabe.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706070", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26718, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 503.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 503.0, "ID": 26718, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 507.0, "ContributionID": 706070, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706074", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26718, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 503.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 503.0, "ID": 26718, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 514.0, "ContributionID": 706074, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706075", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26718, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 503.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 503.0, "ID": 26718, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 515.0, "ContributionID": 706075, "EditedText": "That the Parliament recognises the growing importance to Scotland's society and the economy of lifelong learning, the wide range of circumstances of those engaged in lifelong learning and the widespread concern about how students finance their studies; calls upon the Scottish Executive to appoint urgently an independent committee of inquiry with the following terms of reference and membership to report before the end of 1999, and calls upon the Executive to lay a copy of the Committee's report before the Parliament—", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament recognises the growing importance to Scotland's society and the economy of lifelong learning, the wide range of circumstances of those engaged in lifelong learning and the widespread concern about how students finance their studies; calls upon the Scottish Executive to appoint urgently an independent committee of inquiry with the following terms of reference and membership to report before the end of 1999, and calls upon the Executive to lay a copy of the Committee's report before the Parliament—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706077", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26718, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 503.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 503.0, "ID": 26718, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 517.0, "ContributionID": 706077, "EditedText": "To conduct a comprehensive review of tuition fees and financial support for students normally resident in Scotland participating, part-time or full-time, in further and higher education courses anywhere in the UK;", "EditedTextHTML": "To conduct a comprehensive review of tuition fees and financial support for students normally resident in Scotland participating, part-time or full-time, in further and higher education courses anywhere in the UK;

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.6078156+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706087", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26718, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 503.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 503.0, "ID": 26718, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 529.0, "ContributionID": 706087, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.6078156+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706089", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26718, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 503.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 503.0, "ID": 26718, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 531.0, "ContributionID": 706089, "EditedText": "That concludes decision time. Before we finish, I will take Pauline McNeill's point of order, which I understand is addressed to me and has nothing to do with Mr Monteith allowing an intervention. Is that correct?", "EditedTextHTML": "That concludes decision time.

Before we finish, I will take Pauline McNeill's point of order, which I understand is addressed to me and has nothing to do with Mr Monteith allowing an intervention. Is that correct?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.6078156+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706091", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26718, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 503.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 503.0, "ID": 26718, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 535.0, "ContributionID": 706091, "EditedText": "I will give guidance; points of order to me must be direct, without preamble. I thought that you were raising a point of order about Mr Monteith not giving way and I have already given guidance—", "EditedTextHTML": "I will give guidance; points of order to me must be direct, without preamble. I thought that you were raising a point of order about Mr Monteith not giving way and I have already given guidance—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.6078156+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706095", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26718, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 503.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 503.0, "ID": 26718, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 543.0, "ContributionID": 706095, "EditedText": "Do you wish to speak on the same point, Mr Salmond?", "EditedTextHTML": "Do you wish to speak on the same point, Mr Salmond?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.6078156+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706097", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26718, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 503.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 503.0, "ID": 26718, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 547.0, "ContributionID": 706097, "EditedText": "I have reflected on the matter and, if I may remind you, I issued guidance on interventions in the business bulletin some days ago. I encourage interventions, but not during the closing seconds of a member's speech. I was trying, with great respect, to get Mr Monteith to wind up; that was why I did not allow the intervention. The register of interests is about to be published. It deals with current interests; that is what it is about. It is up to Mr Monteith and Miss McNeill to continue their argument outside the chamber. That concludes the main business. I remind members who have not yet done so to sign the commemorative volume and collect a copy.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have reflected on the matter and, if I may remind you, I issued guidance on interventions in the business bulletin some days ago. I encourage interventions, but not during the closing seconds of a member's speech. I was trying, with great respect, to get Mr Monteith to wind up; that was why I did not allow the intervention.

The register of interests is about to be published. It deals with current interests; that is what it is about. It is up to Mr Monteith and Miss McNeill to continue their argument outside the chamber.

That concludes the main business. I remind members who have not yet done so to sign the commemorative volume and collect a copy.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.6078156+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C706102", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fish Processing Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26719, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 549.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 549.0, "ID": 26719, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Davidson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 557.0, "ContributionID": 706102, "EditedText": "I repeat that I appreciate the privilege and honour of having the first piece of members' business in the Parliament since we adopted our full powers. This issue is very dear to me and to the area I represent, North-East Scotland, and I am pleased that there are representatives of the fish processing industry in the gallery today. For them, the past year has been one of great anxiety about the implementation of the waste water directive. The motion is self-explanatory. Because of the implementation of a piece of legislation from Europe, and perhaps the manner of that implementation, the industry will suffer tremendously. We want the Parliament to recognise the need for delay. Fish processing is a vital industry. In the north-east, businesses range in size from 50 to 500 employees; in some villages and communities it is the basis of the local economy. It is of equal importance to the catching community; the markets of Aberdeen, Peterhead and Fraserburgh, for example, provide a ready place for the fish to go, which encourages catchers to the area. That gives vitality to the ports as well as to the companies that service the industry. If the solutions that are being offered go ahead, many firms will fold. Some will suffer a twentyfold increase in their waste water charges; many cannot cope with that. As a result, a great many jobs are at stake. In Aberdeen, around 5,000 people are employed in the industry and several thousand other employees are scattered along the north coast. My argument also applies to the fish processing industry in other parts of Scotland. When, a year ago, I went to see Lord Sewel on behalf of the industry, he said that the polluter must pay. The industry does not dispute that; its concern is that it has received no help or assistance in meeting the directive. The only assistance on offer was a four-hour consultation— two hours on the premises, two hours to write it up and then the bad news. When I asked for European aid, I was told that it was not available, even though it appears to have been available in other countries. Lord Sewel is no longer the minister responsible, so I hope that the current ministerial team will take up where he left off. Last Saturday, I had the privilege of attending the launch of an Aberdeen initiative; it is well written up in the Scottish Parliament information centre sheet on the industry, as are the facts and figures, and I commend the paper to members. It also gives the statistics, so I do not need to repeat them. Aberdeen City Council, in partnership with the industry and others, has come up with an alternative scheme to that proposed by the North of Scotland Water Authority. It will produce benefits for the industry by establishing a separate system. We are talking about an organic product. It came from the sea and it can go back to the sea, because we are blessed with high flows of water around the coast—unlike Denmark, where any waste must be treated in a more expensive way. The Aberdeen scheme would benefit the industry—the projected net costs would be 50p per cubit metre of effluent in 2003. Under the NOSWA scheme, the cost—approximately £2.50—will be five times that amount. That is serious money. I congratulate the partnership, but it is running out of time. Everybody is telling us that we must deal with the problem now, but I am asking for a full year. The Aberdeen harbour scheme—a model scheme—will take exactly one year to get through planning procedures and be put into action. We should also consider Peterhead and Fraserburgh, where NOSWA wants to build giant machines to mix human effluent with fish processing waste, which is then unfit to be put out to sea and has to be commercially treated. That scheme is vastly expensive. We need to consider constructive, pragmatic and affordable ways in which to deal with something that everybody recognises to be a problem. The industry must be able to survive, employ people and continue to offer a base for the catching sector, which is very important to the north-east of Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "I repeat that I appreciate the privilege and honour of having the first piece of members' business in the Parliament since we adopted our full powers.

This issue is very dear to me and to the area I represent, North-East Scotland, and I am pleased that there are representatives of the fish processing industry in the gallery today. For them, the past year has been one of great anxiety about the implementation of the waste water directive. The motion is self-explanatory. Because of the implementation of a piece of legislation from Europe, and perhaps the manner of that implementation, the industry will suffer tremendously. We want the Parliament to recognise the need for delay.

Fish processing is a vital industry. In the north-east, businesses range in size from 50 to 500 employees; in some villages and communities it is the basis of the local economy. It is of equal importance to the catching community; the markets of Aberdeen, Peterhead and Fraserburgh, for example, provide a ready place for the fish to go, which encourages catchers to the area. That gives vitality to the ports as well as to the companies that service the industry.

If the solutions that are being offered go ahead, many firms will fold. Some will suffer a twentyfold increase in their waste water charges; many cannot cope with that. As a result, a great many jobs are at stake. In Aberdeen, around 5,000 people are employed in the industry and several thousand other employees are scattered along the north coast. My argument also applies to the fish processing industry in other parts of Scotland.

When, a year ago, I went to see Lord Sewel on behalf of the industry, he said that the polluter must pay. The industry does not dispute that; its concern is that it has received no help or assistance in meeting the directive. The only assistance on offer was a four-hour consultation— two hours on the premises, two hours to write it up and then the bad news. When I asked for European aid, I was told that it was not available, even though it appears to have been available in other countries. Lord Sewel is no longer the minister responsible, so I hope that the current ministerial team will take up where he left off.

Last Saturday, I had the privilege of attending the launch of an Aberdeen initiative; it is well written up in the Scottish Parliament information centre sheet on the industry, as are the facts and figures, and I commend the paper to members. It also gives the statistics, so I do not need to repeat them. Aberdeen City Council, in partnership with the industry and others, has come up with an alternative scheme to that proposed by the North of Scotland Water Authority. It will produce benefits for the industry by establishing a separate system.

We are talking about an organic product. It came from the sea and it can go back to the sea, because we are blessed with high flows of water around the coast—unlike Denmark, where any waste must be treated in a more expensive way.

The Aberdeen scheme would benefit the industry—the projected net costs would be 50p per cubit metre of effluent in 2003. Under the NOSWA scheme, the cost—approximately £2.50—will be five times that amount. That is serious money. I congratulate the partnership, but it is running out of time. Everybody is telling us that we must deal with the problem now, but I am asking for a full year. The Aberdeen harbour scheme—a model scheme—will take exactly one year to get through planning procedures and be put into action.

We should also consider Peterhead and Fraserburgh, where NOSWA wants to build giant machines to mix human effluent with fish processing waste, which is then unfit to be put out to sea and has to be commercially treated. That scheme is vastly expensive. We need to consider constructive, pragmatic and affordable ways in which to deal with something that everybody recognises to be a problem. The industry must be able to survive, employ people and continue to offer a base for the catching sector, which is very important to the north-east of Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.6078156+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1990E181P340C706103", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fish Processing Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26719, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 549.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 549.0, "ID": 26719, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robson, Euan", "ID": 1990, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Roxburgh and Berwickshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Euan Robson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Euan Robson (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 559.0, "ContributionID": 706103, "EditedText": "Mr Davidson must forgive me if I have misheard him, but this problem is not unique to the north of Scotland and the North of Scotland Water Authority. It is of particular concern to Eyemouth in my constituency and to the East of Scotland Water Authority. Does he agree not only that the Government does not seem to have properly consulted, but that the water authorities seem to have been less than forthcoming in their consultation? For example, it appears that people in my part of the world got 10 days' notice of new bills that had risen by an amount similar to the one that he mentioned.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Davidson must forgive me if I have misheard him, but this problem is not unique to the

north of Scotland and the North of Scotland Water Authority. It is of particular concern to Eyemouth in my constituency and to the East of Scotland Water Authority. Does he agree not only that the Government does not seem to have properly consulted, but that the water authorities seem to have been less than forthcoming in their consultation? For example, it appears that people in my part of the world got 10 days' notice of new bills that had risen by an amount similar to the one that he mentioned.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.6078156+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C706104", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fish Processing Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26719, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 549.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 549.0, "ID": 26719, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Davidson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 561.0, "ContributionID": 706104, "EditedText": "That was a nice speech for the south of Scotland. Earlier, I said that, although this item of members' business was about the north-east, it applied to other areas of Scotland. I welcome the intervention, which highlights the problem that the sector faces. The water authorities have been heavy-handed in their approach, but it should be borne in mind that they are under constraints as to how they are funded and how they raise capital costs. It would be good for the environment if we set up schemes to take effluent straight out to sea as a natural product. The Scottish Environment Protection Agency would control such a scheme, and the process would not be covered by the urban waste water directive. I am concerned that the water authorities are seeking to mix the fish processing effluent with human waste. The fish processing effluent is then contaminated, which causes unnecessary additional expense. I am asking for time for NOSWA and others. A wonderful report by the environmental consultants Cordah will be published in August. The minister may insist that everything is dealt with by a certain date—there has been due warning—but evidence will be in the public domain as a result of on-going scientific reports. This chamber must insist that an indigenous industry that is a major part of our economy—it is a way of life in many communities—is dealt with in a less heavy-handed way. We are too quick to gold-plate European regulations. We need time, clear and unbiased thought and professional input. I have given permission for many members to speak; I hope that, collectively, we can get the message across to the new ministerial team about the importance of the matter and the need for a year's delay.", "EditedTextHTML": "That was a nice speech for the south of Scotland. Earlier, I said that, although this item of members' business was about the north-east, it applied to other areas of Scotland. I welcome the intervention, which highlights the problem that the sector faces.

The water authorities have been heavy-handed in their approach, but it should be borne in mind that they are under constraints as to how they are funded and how they raise capital costs. It would be good for the environment if we set up schemes to take effluent straight out to sea as a natural product. The Scottish Environment Protection Agency would control such a scheme, and the process would not be covered by the urban waste water directive.

I am concerned that the water authorities are seeking to mix the fish processing effluent with human waste. The fish processing effluent is then contaminated, which causes unnecessary additional expense. I am asking for time for NOSWA and others. A wonderful report by the environmental consultants Cordah will be published in August. The minister may insist that everything is dealt with by a certain date—there has been due warning—but evidence will be in the public domain as a result of on-going scientific reports.

This chamber must insist that an indigenous industry that is a major part of our economy—it is a way of life in many communities—is dealt with in a less heavy-handed way. We are too quick to gold-plate European regulations. We need time, clear and unbiased thought and professional input. I have given permission for many members to speak; I hope that, collectively, we can get the message across to the new ministerial team about the importance of the matter and the need for a year's delay.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.6078156+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C706108", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fish Processing Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26719, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 549.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 549.0, "ID": 26719, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Davidson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 571.0, "ContributionID": 706108, "EditedText": "That was the point that I made. Will Lewis Macdonald confirm that he shares the view of the rest of us in the north-east that Lord Sewel was rather hasty in his decision to turn down the suggestion of seeking support?", "EditedTextHTML": "That was the point that I made. Will Lewis Macdonald confirm that he shares the view of the rest of us in the north-east that Lord Sewel was rather hasty in his decision to turn down the suggestion of seeking support?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.6078156+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1926E190P479C706110", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fish Processing Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26719, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 549.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 549.0, "ID": 26719, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Adam, Brian", "ID": 1926, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Adam", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Brian Adam (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 576.0, "ContributionID": 706110, "EditedText": "In summing up, will the Minister for Transport and the Environment consider the pressures that apply to NOSWA, given that there is already a preferred bidder for the scheme? I also ask her to consider whether the commercial considerations of preferred bidder status will have any implications for the innovative public-private partnership that has been suggested for Aberdeen—and for other schemes, both in Aberdeenshire, which would deal with Fraserburgh and Peterhead, and elsewhere in Scotland. Will she allow time for the Aberdeen proposal, and those suggested for other areas, to be implemented? I am a little concerned that, as preferred bidder status has already been agreed, commercial considerations might preclude other private arrangements outwith the NOSWA proposal.", "EditedTextHTML": "In summing up, will the Minister for Transport and the Environment consider the pressures that apply to NOSWA, given that there is already a preferred bidder for the scheme? I also ask her to consider whether the commercial considerations of preferred bidder status will have any implications for the innovative public-private partnership that has been suggested for Aberdeen—and for other schemes, both in Aberdeenshire, which would deal with Fraserburgh and Peterhead, and elsewhere in Scotland. Will she allow time for the Aberdeen proposal, and those suggested for other areas, to be implemented? I am a little concerned that, as preferred bidder status has already been agreed, commercial considerations might preclude other private arrangements outwith the NOSWA proposal.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.6078156+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2223E203P342C706111", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fish Processing Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26719, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 549.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 549.0, "ID": 26719, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scott, Tavish", "ID": 2223, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Shetland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tavish Scott", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tavish Scott (Shetland) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 579.0, "ContributionID": 706111, "EditedText": "I congratulate Mr Davidson on raising this important issue, which many members have expressed concern about over the past few weeks since we came to the Parliament. The minister's response today is important in the context of those concerns. I thank Mr Davidson for recognising that this is not just a problem for the north-east of Scotland. In Shetland, there are 603 direct and indirect jobs in the fish processing industry, which is worth about £57 million to the Shetland economy. It is a considerable factor in our economy and, in that sense, we have the same interests, although on a different scale. manner of the directive's implementation. In future, the Parliament's committees, such as the European Committee, the Transport and the Environment Committee and other appropriate committees, will have a crucial role in considering that. We need to think a little about the strata of the industry. It is not just a question of the fish processors—who can be seen as the middlemen—as it reaches both up and down the line. The control and power that supermarkets have today mean that the price of the product in the shop will not change. Down at the bottom level, it is the primary producer who may ultimately see the price of his or her product fall. In that context, it affects salmon farmers, pelagic boats and white-fish boats. Lewis Macdonald made a good point about waste water treatment plants. In Shetland we have tried to tackle investment with the local enterprise company and the council. However, the trouble is that the scale of the increases that NOSWA is looking to put into place is much more than can be offset by the improvements that the processing factories in Shetland are trying to implement. The briefing that came from the library was useful. The group treatment process that will be established in Aberdeen, if successful, is important, but there are advantages of economies of scale there which are not available in many parts of the Highlands and Islands, where factories may not be geographically close to one another or where there may be other disadvantages of scale. It is important that we consider what will have to be done in parts of the Highlands and Islands to implement the directive. There may not be the opportunity—if that is the right way of describing it—that exists in Aberdeen to deal with this particular problem. As Richard Lochhead said, it is important to ask questions and to ensure that the minister responds to these needs, and that she uses her office in an imaginative way to tackle these problems. As regards NOSWA, will the minister also bear in mind that water and sewage services should be given back to local control, in the circumstances where they can be administratively and economically delivered in a more efficient manner? That could be a solution that would help the situation in the northern isles.", "EditedTextHTML": "I congratulate Mr Davidson on raising this important issue, which many members have expressed concern about over the past few weeks since we came to the Parliament. The minister's response today is important in the context of those concerns.

I thank Mr Davidson for recognising that this is not just a problem for the north-east of Scotland. In Shetland, there are 603 direct and indirect jobs in the fish processing industry, which is worth about £57 million to the Shetland economy. It is a considerable factor in our economy and, in that sense, we have the same interests, although on a different scale. manner of the directive's implementation. In future, the Parliament's committees, such as the European Committee, the Transport and the Environment Committee and other appropriate committees, will have a crucial role in considering that.

We need to think a little about the strata of the industry. It is not just a question of the fish processors—who can be seen as the middlemen—as it reaches both up and down the line. The control and power that supermarkets have today mean that the price of the product in the shop will not change. Down at the bottom level, it is the primary producer who may ultimately see the price of his or her product fall. In that context, it affects salmon farmers, pelagic boats and white-fish boats.

Lewis Macdonald made a good point about waste water treatment plants. In Shetland we have tried to tackle investment with the local enterprise company and the council. However, the trouble is that the scale of the increases that NOSWA is looking to put into place is much more than can be offset by the improvements that the processing factories in Shetland are trying to implement.

The briefing that came from the library was useful. The group treatment process that will be established in Aberdeen, if successful, is important, but there are advantages of economies of scale there which are not available in many parts of the Highlands and Islands, where factories may not be geographically close to one another or where there may be other disadvantages of scale. It is important that we consider what will have to be done in parts of the Highlands and Islands to implement the directive. There may not be the opportunity—if that is the right way of describing it—that exists in Aberdeen to deal with this particular problem. As Richard Lochhead said, it is important to ask questions and to ensure that the minister responds to these needs, and that she uses her office in an imaginative way to tackle these problems.

As regards NOSWA, will the minister also bear in mind that water and sewage services should be given back to local control, in the circumstances where they can be administratively and economically delivered in a more efficient manner? That could be a solution that would help the situation in the northern isles.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.6078156+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C706124", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fish Processing Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26719, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 549.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 549.0, "ID": 26719, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Davidson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 607.0, "ContributionID": 706124, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.6078156+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C706131", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fish Processing Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26719, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 549.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 549.0, "ID": 26719, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Davidson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 621.0, "ContributionID": 706131, "EditedText": "A lot of what we are hearing from the minister is common knowledge about the waste water directive for dealing with the disposal of human waste. I hope that she will discuss ways of dealing, whether through NOSWA or some other agency, with waste water from the fish processing industry. Such waste is natural and organic; whenever possible, we do not want to put it into ordinary sewers. I accept that sometimes it will not be possible to avoid that, but the Seafish Authority has produced documentation that gives good advice on the subject. In areas such as Peterhead harbour where there are many small fish processors, there could be a scheme linking only the fish processors to an outfall system in which the waste required the minimum of treatment. I do not see that as part and parcel of what the minister is discussing. The minister is discussing the global issues of human waste water; we are here to talk about the fish processing industry.", "EditedTextHTML": "A lot of what we are hearing from the minister is common knowledge about the waste water directive for dealing with the disposal of human waste. I hope that she will discuss ways of dealing, whether through NOSWA or some other agency, with waste water from the fish processing industry. Such waste is natural and organic; whenever possible, we do not want to put it into ordinary sewers. I accept that sometimes it will not be possible to avoid that, but the Seafish Authority has produced documentation that gives good advice on the subject. In areas such as Peterhead harbour where there are many small fish processors, there could be a scheme linking only the fish processors to an outfall system in which the waste required the minimum of treatment. I do not see that as part and parcel of what the minister is discussing. The minister is discussing the global issues of human waste water; we are here to talk about the fish processing industry.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.6078156+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C706133", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fish Processing Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26719, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 549.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 549.0, "ID": 26719, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 625.0, "ContributionID": 706133, "EditedText": "That is not a point of order. Carry on, Ms Boyack; and please bring your contribution to an end as quickly as you can.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is not a point of order. Carry on, Ms Boyack; and please bring your contribution to an end as quickly as you can.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.6078156+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C706137", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fish Processing Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26719, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 549.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 549.0, "ID": 26719, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 633.0, "ContributionID": 706137, "EditedText": "That concludes today's business. I ask members to stand as the mace is removed from the chamber.", "EditedTextHTML": "That concludes today's business. I ask members to stand as the mace is removed from the chamber.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.6078156+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2110E214P424C705998", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gibson, Kenneth", "ID": 2110, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenneth Gibson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Gibson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 349.0, "ContributionID": 705998, "EditedText": "Would the member support the withdrawal of the Liberal Democrats from the coalition if the Government failed to introduce PR in time for the next local authority elections?", "EditedTextHTML": "Would the member support the withdrawal of the Liberal Democrats from the coalition if the Government failed to introduce PR in time for the next local authority elections?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:00:40.118999+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1857E136P222C706094", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26718, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 503.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 503.0, "ID": 26718, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeill, Pauline", "ID": 1857, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Kelvin" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Pauline McNeill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Pauline McNeill: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 541.0, "ContributionID": 706094, "EditedText": "My point, which I did feel was a point of order, Mr Presiding Officer, was that it would have been in order for Mr Monteith to declare his interest. He said that the National Union of Students was not the appropriate body and that there should be an additional student on the committee of inquiry. To my certain knowledge, Mr Monteith spent most of his student life opposing the universities that he mentioned joining the NUS, an organisation to which he is fundamentally opposed. It was dishonest of him and he should have declared his interest in the matter in the first place. Mr Alex Salmond (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)rose—", "EditedTextHTML": "My point, which I did feel was a point of order, Mr Presiding Officer, was that it would have been in order for Mr Monteith to declare his interest. He said that the National Union of Students was not the appropriate body and that there should be an additional student on the committee of inquiry. To my certain knowledge, Mr Monteith spent most of his student life opposing the universities that he mentioned joining the NUS, an organisation to which he is fundamentally opposed. It was dishonest of him and he should have declared his interest in the matter in the first place.

Mr Alex Salmond (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)

rose—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:02:32.7857179+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2110E214P424C705963", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gibson, Kenneth", "ID": 2110, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenneth Gibson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Gibson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 269.0, "ContributionID": 705963, "EditedText": "There is genuine consensus in Scottish local government, in Scottish politics and in Scottish civic society about the desperate need for modernisation and reform. Local government is tired of being a whipping boy and seeks positive renewal for itself. The Scottish Parliament, conscious of becoming the new media scapegoat, must make local government a full and equal partner in the new Scotland, and I am pleased that the Executive agrees with that aim. The partnership that McIntosh recommends is a new covenant, as the report calls it. I am, understandably, nervous of using the term covenanters, knowing the history of this chamber. Perhaps, through McIntosh, we will all become the new covenanters for the next millennium. Members of the SNP thank Neil McIntosh and his commission for the huge effort they have put into the report—both the sheer volume of work that was undertaken and the absolute diligence with which it was carried out. As a participant and an interested party, I found the report and the two consultation papers insightful, innovative and accessible. Neil McIntosh and his commission deserve our fullest praise. Members on this side of the chamber are prepared to accept the McIntosh recommendations as a whole. We believed on first reading, and still believe after further analysis, that the proposals represent a balanced outlook, and we have accepted the commission's plea that the proposals should be taken as a package. It is disappointing that, contrary to previous statements in the press, the minister and the Executive have decided on an element of cherry picking. The lack of an independent financial review of local government is a matter of real concern; the lack of a clear timetable for implementing proportional representation is a matter of some frustration; the fudge on general competence is a real disappointment. However, the SNP is prepared to work with the Executive to get the best possible deal from this situation, but we issue one word of caution to the Executive—it should not be swayed in its convictions by matters of internal party dispute. The McIntosh commission captured a consensus that carries across the parties in this chamber. When vested interest and narrow gain are taken out of the equation, that consensus spreads across Scotland's town, city and county buildings. On a minor, discordant note, having looked at some of the local authority submissions to the commission, I find it difficult to take seriously some the critical comments that some members have made. One example comes from my old friend and colleague, Councillor Charlie Gordon, leader of Glasgow City Council and self-proclaimed hammer of proportional representation. He described the debate around PR as \"a dangerous distraction\". That is different from what Glasgow City Council's submission said about PR. The city council's submission was made while it was under the leadership of the Deputy Minister for Local Government. It read: \"Glasgow City Council is of the view that a comprehensive review should be set up which looks into all electoral systems. This review should have as its express purpose the task of determining the most accountable system for local government in the 21st century.\" I could quote other, similar, statements, but I will not, partly because I fear that you, Madam Deputy Presiding Officer, will not give me the time, and partly because I fear that the new-found consensus with which I so boldly began might break down. I do not seek to labour the point on PR. I simply want to state that what local authorities, voluntary organisations, trade unions and many individuals submitted to McIntosh represents the broad current of opinion. However tempted ministers are to listen to the voice of vested interest, I trust that they will resist that temptation and will listen instead to the broad consensus and back the right course. There are many more subjects I would like to address in detail—indeed, my colleagues will do so during this debate. I look forward to the future of local government with optimism and I have no reservation in commending to this chamber the work of the McIntosh commission in its entirety.", "EditedTextHTML": "There is genuine consensus in Scottish local government, in Scottish politics and in Scottish civic society about the desperate need for modernisation and reform. Local government is tired of being a whipping boy and seeks positive renewal for itself. The Scottish Parliament, conscious of becoming the new media scapegoat, must make local government a full and equal partner in the new Scotland, and I am pleased that the Executive agrees with that aim.

The partnership that McIntosh recommends is a new covenant, as the report calls it. I am, understandably, nervous of using the term covenanters, knowing the history of this chamber. Perhaps, through McIntosh, we will all become the new covenanters for the next millennium.

Members of the SNP thank Neil McIntosh and his commission for the huge effort they have put into the report—both the sheer volume of work that was undertaken and the absolute diligence with which it was carried out. As a participant and an interested party, I found the report and the two consultation papers insightful, innovative and accessible. Neil McIntosh and his commission deserve our fullest praise.

Members on this side of the chamber are prepared to accept the McIntosh recommendations as a whole. We believed on first reading, and still believe after further analysis, that the proposals represent a balanced outlook, and we have accepted the commission's plea that the proposals should be taken as a package. It is disappointing that, contrary to previous statements in the press, the minister and the Executive have decided on an element of cherry picking.

The lack of an independent financial review of local government is a matter of real concern; the lack of a clear timetable for implementing proportional representation is a matter of some frustration; the fudge on general competence is a real disappointment.

However, the SNP is prepared to work with the Executive to get the best possible deal from this situation, but we issue one word of caution to the Executive—it should not be swayed in its convictions by matters of internal party dispute. The McIntosh commission captured a consensus that carries across the parties in this chamber. When vested interest and narrow gain are taken out of the equation, that consensus spreads across Scotland's town, city and county buildings.

On a minor, discordant note, having looked at some of the local authority submissions to the commission, I find it difficult to take seriously some the critical comments that some members have made. One example comes from my old friend and colleague, Councillor Charlie Gordon, leader of Glasgow City Council and self-proclaimed hammer of proportional representation. He described the debate around PR as \"a dangerous distraction\". That is different from what Glasgow City Council's submission said about PR. The city council's submission was made while it was under the leadership of the Deputy Minister for Local Government. It read:

\"Glasgow City Council is of the view that a comprehensive review should be set up which looks into all electoral systems. This review should have as its express purpose the task of determining the most accountable system for local government in the 21st century.\"

I could quote other, similar, statements, but I will not, partly because I fear that you, Madam Deputy Presiding Officer, will not give me the time, and partly because I fear that the new-found consensus with which I so boldly began might break down.

I do not seek to labour the point on PR. I simply want to state that what local authorities, voluntary organisations, trade unions and many individuals submitted to McIntosh represents the broad current of opinion. However tempted ministers are to listen to the voice of vested interest, I trust that

they will resist that temptation and will listen instead to the broad consensus and back the right course.

There are many more subjects I would like to address in detail—indeed, my colleagues will do so during this debate. I look forward to the future of local government with optimism and I have no reservation in commending to this chamber the work of the McIntosh commission in its entirety.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:34:40.9579878+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C705849", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26692, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26693, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "QuestionHeading": "General Teaching Council", "QuestionHeadingID": 26695, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 16.0, "DisplayOrder": 16.0, "ID": 26695, "ParentID": 26693 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Children and Education (Mr Sam Galbraith): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 19.0, "ContributionID": 705849, "EditedText": "The report will be available shortly, together with our proposals for change.", "EditedTextHTML": "The report will be available shortly, together with our proposals for change.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C705851", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26692, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26693, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "QuestionHeading": "General Teaching Council", "QuestionHeadingID": 26695, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 16.0, "DisplayOrder": 16.0, "ID": 26695, "ParentID": 26693 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Galbraith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 23.0, "ContributionID": 705851, "EditedText": "As I said, the report will be available shortly. One of the issues addressed by the report is the make-up of the GTC and the number of representatives of the teaching profession on it. The Government believes that teachers should have a majority on the council as part of the process of enhancing their professionalism and encouraging self-regulation. Some specific proposals will be made shortly.", "EditedTextHTML": "As I said, the report will be available shortly. One of the issues addressed by the report is the make-up of the GTC and the number of representatives of the teaching profession on it. The Government believes that teachers should have a majority on the council as part of the process of enhancing their professionalism and encouraging self-regulation. Some specific proposals will be made shortly.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C705854", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26692, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26693, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "QuestionHeading": "Criminal Record Certificates", "QuestionHeadingID": 26696, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 25.0, "DisplayOrder": 25.0, "ID": 26696, "ParentID": 26693 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 30.0, "ContributionID": 705854, "EditedText": "I take this opportunity to say how much I recognise and value the role of volunteers in our society. Mr Davidson's point about the burden that will fall on a number of voluntary organisations is a matter that we would want to take into account when considering the review of the charging arrangements.", "EditedTextHTML": "I take this opportunity to say how much I recognise and value the role of volunteers in our society. Mr Davidson's point about the burden that will fall on a number of voluntary organisations is a matter that we would want to take into account when considering the review of the charging arrangements.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2118E157P454C705859", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26692, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26693, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "QuestionHeading": "Fire Services", "QuestionHeadingID": 26698, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 41.0, "DisplayOrder": 41.0, "ID": 26698, "ParentID": 26693 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Quinan, Mr Lloyd", "ID": 2118, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lloyd Quinan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "5. Mr Lloyd Quinan (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 42.0, "ContributionID": 705859, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what measures it intends to take to provide fire services in the event of industrial action by the Fire Brigades Union. (S1O-184)", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what measures it intends to take to provide fire services in the event of industrial action by the Fire Brigades Union. (S1O-184)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1862E99P179C705864", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26692, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26693, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "QuestionHeading": "Schools (Sport)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26699, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 50.0, "DisplayOrder": 50.0, "ID": 26699, "ParentID": 26693 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Brankin, Rhona", "ID": 1862, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Midlothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Culture and Sport", "SpeakerName": "Rhona Brankin", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Culture and Sport (Rhona Brankin): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 53.0, "ContributionID": 705864, "EditedText": "On 7 June, I announced that the first tranche of school sports co-ordinators would be appointed in 87 secondary schools. Our target is to have school sports co-ordinators in all Scotland's secondary schools by 2003.", "EditedTextHTML": "On 7 June, I announced that the first tranche of school sports co-ordinators would be appointed in 87 secondary schools. Our target is to have school sports co-ordinators in all Scotland's secondary schools by 2003.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2108E50P256C705865", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26692, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26693, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "QuestionHeading": "Schools (Sport)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26699, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 50.0, "DisplayOrder": 50.0, "ID": 26699, "ParentID": 26693 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macintosh, Ken", "ID": 2108, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Eastwood" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ken Macintosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Macintosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 55.0, "ContributionID": 705865, "EditedText": "Does the minister welcome the role played by local authorities, such as East Renfrewshire, in encouraging young people to participate in sport? Does she appreciate the importance of sport in developing healthy lifestyles and in making progress on our social inclusion agenda?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the minister welcome the role played by local authorities, such as East Renfrewshire, in encouraging young people to participate in sport? Does she appreciate the importance of sport in developing healthy lifestyles and in making progress on our social inclusion agenda?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1837E108P186C705873", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26692, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26693, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "QuestionHeading": "Teachers (IT Training)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26702, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 73.0, "DisplayOrder": 73.0, "ID": 26702, "ParentID": 26693 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mulligan, Mary", "ID": 1837, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Linlithgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Mulligan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "9. Mrs Mary Mulligan (Linlithgow) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 74.0, "ContributionID": 705873, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will make a statement on its plans to improve information technology resources and training for teachers. (S1O-143)", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will make a statement on its plans to improve information technology resources and training for teachers. (S1O-143)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C705874", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26692, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26693, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "QuestionHeading": "Teachers (IT Training)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26702, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 73.0, "DisplayOrder": 73.0, "ID": 26702, "ParentID": 26693 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Children and Education (Mr Sam Galbraith): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 76.0, "ContributionID": 705874, "EditedText": "The sum of £100 million for IT resources has been allocated over the next three years, supported by £23 million from the new opportunities fund. We will announce shortly details of a scheme to help teachers to buy computers.", "EditedTextHTML": "The sum of £100 million for IT resources has been allocated over the next three years, supported by £23 million from the new opportunities fund. We will announce shortly details of a scheme to help teachers to buy computers.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1837E108P186C705875", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26692, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26693, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "QuestionHeading": "Teachers (IT Training)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26702, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 73.0, "DisplayOrder": 73.0, "ID": 26702, "ParentID": 26693 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mulligan, Mary", "ID": 1837, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Linlithgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Mulligan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Mulligan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 78.0, "ContributionID": 705875, "EditedText": "I thank the minister for that response. Over the weeks since the election, I have met a number of teachers in my constituency of Linlithgow who have said that they very much welcome the resources that are being put into schools for information technology. However, they have some concerns about the speed at which training is being made available. They appreciate that, without that training, they will not be able to get the best out of the facilities that they have or to pass skills on to the children. Will the minister comment on that?", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the minister for that response. Over the weeks since the election, I have met a number of teachers in my constituency of Linlithgow who have said that they very much welcome the resources that are being put into schools for information technology. However, they have some concerns about the speed at which training is being made available. They appreciate that, without that training, they will not be able to get the best out of the facilities that they have or to pass skills on to the children. Will the minister comment on that?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2223E203P342C705878", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26692, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26693, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "QuestionHeading": "Fisheries", "QuestionHeadingID": 26703, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 82.0, "DisplayOrder": 82.0, "ID": 26703, "ParentID": 26693 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scott, Tavish", "ID": 2223, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Shetland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tavish Scott", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tavish Scott: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 85.0, "ContributionID": 705878, "EditedText": "Given the widespread support from Scottish fishermen for the regionalisation of the common fisheries policy, does the minister accept that the proposals of the Scottish Fishermen's Federation constitute an important step forward and provide a basis for the Executive's policy position on this important matter?", "EditedTextHTML": "Given the widespread support from Scottish fishermen for the regionalisation of the common fisheries policy, does the minister accept that the proposals of the Scottish Fishermen's Federation constitute an important step forward and provide a basis for the Executive's policy position on this important matter?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1775E171P452C705883", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26692, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26693, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "QuestionHeading": "Sport", "QuestionHeadingID": 26705, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 96.0, "DisplayOrder": 96.0, "ID": 26705, "ParentID": 26693 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeod, Fiona", "ID": 1775, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona McLeod", "SpeakerDisplayName": "12. Fiona McLeod (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 97.0, "ContributionID": 705883, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive how it intends to support efforts to bring major international sporting events to Scotland. (S1O-158)", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive how it intends to support efforts to bring major international sporting events to Scotland. (S1O-158)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1862E99P179C705888", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26692, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26693, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "QuestionHeading": "Sport", "QuestionHeadingID": 26705, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 96.0, "DisplayOrder": 96.0, "ID": 26705, "ParentID": 26693 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Brankin, Rhona", "ID": 1862, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Midlothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Culture and Sport", "SpeakerName": "Rhona Brankin", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Rhona Brankin: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 107.0, "ContributionID": 705888, "EditedText": "That would be an interesting development and I would be happy to talk to Fiona McLeod about it.", "EditedTextHTML": "That would be an interesting development and I would be happy to talk to Fiona McLeod about it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1882E175P456C705889", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26692, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26693, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "QuestionHeading": "Multilateral Agreement on Investment", "QuestionHeadingID": 26706, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 109.0, "DisplayOrder": 109.0, "ID": 26706, "ParentID": 26693 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ingram, Adam", "ID": 1882, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Adam Ingram", "SpeakerDisplayName": "13. Mr Adam Ingram (South of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 110.0, "ContributionID": 705889, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it intends to make representations to HM Government to ensure that the potential impact in Scotland on matters within its responsibility of any future multilateral agreement on investment is taken into account during any negotiations to establish such an agreement. (S1O-135) The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning (Henry McLeish): The Executive will put forward views as appropriate on the implications for its responsibilities for issues as they arise in international trade negotiations, including any future negotiation of international investment rules.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it intends to make representations to HM Government to ensure that the potential impact in Scotland on matters within its responsibility of any future multilateral agreement on investment is taken into account during any negotiations to establish such an agreement. (S1O-135) The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning (Henry McLeish): The Executive will put forward views as appropriate on the implications for its responsibilities for issues as they arise in international trade negotiations, including any future negotiation of international investment rules.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C705891", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26692, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26693, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "QuestionHeading": "Multilateral Agreement on Investment", "QuestionHeadingID": 26706, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 109.0, "DisplayOrder": 109.0, "ID": 26706, "ParentID": 26693 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 114.0, "ContributionID": 705891, "EditedText": "Mr Ingram's first point about a future MAI cutting across this Parliament's specific powers is not correct. These are important issues and we have to take them seriously. Anything that would adversely impact on our world trading position would be a matter for concern. However, negotiations and discussions are continuing. I can give an absolute assurance that we will consult closely with ministers at Westminster to ensure that the Scottish perspective is firmly put and that they are aware of the implications of any decisions made on a worldwide basis.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Ingram's first point about a future MAI cutting across this Parliament's specific powers is not correct. These are important issues and we have to take them seriously. Anything that would adversely impact on our world trading position would be a matter for concern. However, negotiations and discussions are continuing. I can give an absolute assurance that we will consult closely with ministers at Westminster to ensure that the Scottish perspective is firmly put and that they are aware of the implications of any decisions made on a worldwide basis.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1986E53P206C705894", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26692, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26693, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "QuestionHeading": "New Deal", "QuestionHeadingID": 26707, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 116.0, "DisplayOrder": 116.0, "ID": 26707, "ParentID": 26693 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeil, Duncan", "ID": 1986, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Greenock and Inverclyde" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan McNeil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McNeil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 121.0, "ContributionID": 705894, "EditedText": "I welcome the minister's statement, but does he agree that short-term unemployment is a growing problem in places such as Greenock and Inverclyde, where the electronics industry is a major employer? People have been asked to accept either short-term employment or long-term educational opportunities. We need to create local flexibility in the new deal to ensure that it works properly. One solution could be to count together periods of unemployment, which would allow people to qualify for the new deal if they had been unemployed for six of the past 12 months and were identified as needing extra support to compete more effectively in the labour market. That would ensure that Labour's new deal worked effectively for them.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the minister's statement, but does he agree that short-term unemployment is a growing problem in places such as Greenock and Inverclyde, where the electronics industry is a major employer? People have been asked to accept either short-term employment or long-term educational opportunities. We need to create local flexibility in the new deal to ensure that it works properly. One solution could be to count together periods of unemployment, which would allow people to qualify for the new deal if they had been unemployed for six of the past 12 months and were identified as needing extra support to compete more effectively in the labour market. That would ensure that Labour's new deal worked effectively for them.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C705896", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26692, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26693, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "QuestionHeading": "Perth College", "QuestionHeadingID": 26708, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 125.0, "DisplayOrder": 125.0, "ID": 26708, "ParentID": 26693 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "15. Bruce Crawford (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 126.0, "ContributionID": 705896, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether in view of the current financial difficulties being experienced by Perth College it has any plans to increase the level of grant payable to the college in this financial year. (S1O-132) The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning (Henry McLeish): On 1 July, the responsibility for direct funding of further education colleges passed to the new Scottish Further Education Funding Council. I understand that Perth College has already written to the council about its financial position.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether in view of the current financial difficulties being experienced by Perth College it has any plans to increase the level of grant payable to the college in this financial year. (S1O-132) The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning (Henry McLeish): On 1 July, the responsibility for direct funding of further education colleges passed to the new Scottish Further Education Funding Council. I understand that Perth College has already written to the council about its financial position.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C705898", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26692, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26693, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "QuestionHeading": "Perth College", "QuestionHeadingID": 26708, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 125.0, "DisplayOrder": 125.0, "ID": 26708, "ParentID": 26693 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 130.0, "ContributionID": 705898, "EditedText": "I acknowledge that the points that Bruce Crawford has raised are important, but the facts, too, are often important. The grant allocation for the college in 1999-2000 is to be increased by £0.4 million, a 7 per cent increase on the previous year. In the comprehensive spending review settlement over the next three years, we have provided additional funding to stabilise the financial set-up in a number of colleges. That will be very important. On an optimistic note, the further education sector provides a great contribution to the economy of Scotland and Perth College makes a great contribution to its local community. Last week, the college and the Scottish Office met to draw up a financial recovery plan. Every college must look closely at its financial set-up. I want efficiency and a return for every pound of public sector money that we spend. Perth College is capable of rising to that challenge and a programme will be devised to ensure that it and other colleges in Scotland progress positively.", "EditedTextHTML": "I acknowledge that the points that Bruce Crawford has raised are important, but the facts, too, are often important. The grant allocation for the college in 1999-2000 is to be increased by £0.4 million, a 7 per cent increase on the previous year. In the comprehensive spending review settlement over the next three years, we have provided additional funding to stabilise the financial set-up in a number of colleges. That will be very important.

On an optimistic note, the further education sector provides a great contribution to the economy of Scotland and Perth College makes a great contribution to its local community. Last week, the college and the Scottish Office met to draw up a financial recovery plan. Every college must look closely at its financial set-up. I want efficiency and a return for every pound of public sector money that we spend. Perth College is capable of rising to that challenge and a programme will be devised to ensure that it and other colleges in Scotland progress positively.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C705899", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26692, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26693, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "QuestionHeading": "Perth College", "QuestionHeadingID": 26708, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 125.0, "DisplayOrder": 125.0, "ID": 26708, "ParentID": 26693 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bruce Crawford: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 132.0, "ContributionID": 705899, "EditedText": "Will the minister supply the chamber with information about the financial position of all the colleges in Scotland from 199697 to now?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister supply the chamber with information about the financial position of all the colleges in Scotland from 199697 to now?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C705900", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26692, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26693, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "QuestionHeading": "Perth College", "QuestionHeadingID": 26708, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 125.0, "DisplayOrder": 125.0, "ID": 26708, "ParentID": 26693 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 134.0, "ContributionID": 705900, "EditedText": "This is a common-sense issue; there is no need for the slight aggression shown. The National Audit Office report published a few days ago contains an update on the financial position and on the question of efficiency and value for money for every college in Scotland. I am sure that it will make good reading.", "EditedTextHTML": "This is a common-sense issue; there is no need for the slight aggression shown. The National Audit Office report published a few days ago contains an update on the financial position and on the question of efficiency and value for money for every college in Scotland. I am sure that it will make good reading.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C705903", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26692, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26693, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "QuestionHeading": "Stephen Lawrence Inquiry", "QuestionHeadingID": 26709, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 136.0, "DisplayOrder": 136.0, "ID": 26709, "ParentID": 26693 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 141.0, "ContributionID": 705903, "EditedText": "As Shona Robison knows, there are a number of recommendations in the Macpherson report. Some of them do not apply to Scotland, but our working presumption will be that we will seek to implement those that do. As I said, we will bring forward an action plan to deal with issues such as the ones that she raises. In parallel with the position taken by the Home Secretary in England, I intend to set up and chair a steering group to oversee progress in the implementation of those recommendations.", "EditedTextHTML": "As Shona Robison knows, there are a number of recommendations in the Macpherson report. Some of them do not apply to Scotland, but our working presumption will be that we will seek to implement those that do. As I said, we will bring forward an action plan to deal with issues such as the ones that she raises. In parallel with the position taken by the Home Secretary in England, I intend to set up and chair a steering group to oversee progress in the implementation of those recommendations.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C705905", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26710, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 143.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26711, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 144.0, "QuestionHeading": "Scottish Parliament", "QuestionHeadingID": 26712, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 145.0, "DisplayOrder": 145.0, "ID": 26712, "ParentID": 26711 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister (Donald Dewar): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 148.0, "ContributionID": 705905, "EditedText": "Sir David, I always enjoy answering a precise question. We have already announced an extensive legislative programme, which in range and scope could not have been matched under the previous dispensation from Westminster. We are concentrating on issues such as education, health, jobs and social inclusion—issues that I believe reflect the priorities of the people of Scotland and command their broad support. As we tackle those issues, I look forward optimistically, but not with complete confidence, to the support of the nationalists.", "EditedTextHTML": "Sir David, I always enjoy answering a precise question.

We have already announced an extensive legislative programme, which in range and scope could not have been matched under the previous dispensation from Westminster. We are concentrating on issues such as education, health, jobs and social inclusion—issues that I believe reflect the priorities of the people of Scotland and command their broad support. As we tackle those issues, I look forward optimistically, but not with complete confidence, to the support of the nationalists.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C705906", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26710, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 143.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26711, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 144.0, "QuestionHeading": "Scottish Parliament", "QuestionHeadingID": 26712, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 145.0, "DisplayOrder": 145.0, "ID": 26712, "ParentID": 26711 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 150.0, "ContributionID": 705906, "EditedText": "Is the First Minister aware that the main headline on Ceefax at 1 o'clock this morning said that MSPs were happy and emotional at events? I was tempted to ask which MSPs and which events; but I think the headline summed up a highly successful day. That success was acknowledged generally, and not just by members of the Parliament. As was referred to in speeches yesterday, one of the expectations that people have of this Parliament is that there should be vigorous debate. Does the First Minister agree that that vigorous debate should, in this new democracy, extend not just to people in this chamber, but through all Scottish society?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is the First Minister aware that the main headline on Ceefax at 1 o'clock this morning said that MSPs were happy and emotional at events? I was tempted to ask which MSPs and which events; but I think the headline summed up a highly successful day. That success was acknowledged generally, and not just by members of the Parliament.

As was referred to in speeches yesterday, one of the expectations that people have of this Parliament is that there should be vigorous debate. Does the First Minister agree that that vigorous debate should, in this new democracy, extend not just to people in this chamber, but through all Scottish society?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C705909", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26710, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 143.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26711, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 144.0, "QuestionHeading": "Scottish Parliament", "QuestionHeadingID": 26712, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 145.0, "DisplayOrder": 145.0, "ID": 26712, "ParentID": 26711 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 156.0, "ContributionID": 705909, "EditedText": "I have a prejudice against condemning situations of which I have no direct experience. That is perhaps the rather cautious approach of a lawyer; but one has to know the circumstances in their entirety before starting to condemn. Although I realise that there are always attractions in making public denunciations and gestures, before doing so it is important that one equips oneself with real knowledge.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have a prejudice against condemning situations of which I have no direct experience. That is perhaps the rather cautious approach of a lawyer; but one has to know the circumstances in their entirety before starting to condemn. Although I realise that there are always attractions in making public denunciations and gestures, before doing so it is important that one equips oneself with real knowledge.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C705910", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26710, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 143.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26711, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 144.0, "QuestionHeading": "Scottish Parliament", "QuestionHeadingID": 26712, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 145.0, "DisplayOrder": 145.0, "ID": 26712, "ParentID": 26711 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 158.0, "ContributionID": 705910, "EditedText": "The matter has been well reported in the press, as I am sure that the First Minister is aware. Mr Dorman and Mr Corsie are school janitors. When Mr David Blunkett attended their school during the election campaign, they expressed their concerns over the PFI in terms of jobs. One of the gentlemen is a Labour supporter, one is a Scottish National party supporter; both were concerned about their jobs. The disciplinary charge that they face is that they interfered with a Government minister's visit. Does the First Minister agree that the vigorous new democracy and debate should extend not just to members of the Parliament, not just to leaders of civic society in Scotland, but to every citizen of this country?", "EditedTextHTML": "The matter has been well reported in the press, as I am sure that the First Minister is aware. Mr Dorman and Mr Corsie are school janitors. When Mr David Blunkett attended their school during the election campaign, they expressed their concerns over the PFI in terms of jobs. One of the gentlemen is a Labour supporter, one is a Scottish National party supporter; both were concerned about their jobs. The disciplinary charge that they face is that they interfered with a Government minister's visit. Does the First Minister agree that the vigorous new democracy and debate should extend not just to members of the Parliament, not just to leaders of civic society in Scotland, but to every citizen of this country?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C705914", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26710, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 143.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26711, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 144.0, "QuestionHeading": "Scottish Parliament", "QuestionHeadingID": 26712, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 145.0, "DisplayOrder": 145.0, "ID": 26712, "ParentID": 26711 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 166.0, "ContributionID": 705914, "EditedText": "I apologise, Mr Macdonald. Your name had come up on my computer screen to ask a question on the issue that Mr Salmond raised.", "EditedTextHTML": "I apologise, Mr Macdonald. Your name had come up on my computer screen to ask a question on the issue that Mr Salmond raised.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2105E44P74C705918", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26710, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 143.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26711, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 144.0, "QuestionHeading": "Homeless People", "QuestionHeadingID": 26713, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 172.0, "DisplayOrder": 172.0, "ID": 26713, "ParentID": 26711 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harding, Mr Keith", "ID": 2105, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Harding", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Harding: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 175.0, "ContributionID": 705918, "EditedText": "I thank the minister for that reply and I am glad that the Government is beginning to address that situation. Labour has been in power for two years and homelessness has increased by 14 per cent. What immediate initiatives does the minister intend to implement to reduce the level of homelessness?", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the minister for that reply and I am glad that the Government is beginning to address that situation. Labour has been in power for two years and homelessness has increased by 14 per cent. What immediate initiatives does the minister intend to implement to reduce the level of homelessness?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2123E103P242C705922", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26710, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 143.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26711, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 144.0, "QuestionHeading": "Homeless People", "QuestionHeadingID": 26713, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 172.0, "DisplayOrder": 172.0, "ID": 26713, "ParentID": 26711 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Chisholm, Malcolm", "ID": 2123, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh North and Leith" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Malcolm Chisholm", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 183.0, "ContributionID": 705922, "EditedText": "The minister will know that Shelter and many others have welcomed new housing partnerships, but have expressed concerns about the loss of homeless people's statutory rights under the new arrangements. When the Executive brings forward housing legislation, will it consider legislating in that area, or does it consider that contractual rights are adequate?", "EditedTextHTML": "The minister will know that Shelter and many others have welcomed new housing partnerships, but have expressed concerns about the loss of homeless people's statutory rights under the new arrangements. When the Executive brings forward housing legislation, will it consider legislating in that area, or does it consider that contractual rights are adequate?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2117E79P104C705924", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26710, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 143.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26711, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 144.0, "QuestionHeading": "Integrated Government", "QuestionHeadingID": 26714, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 187.0, "DisplayOrder": 187.0, "ID": 26714, "ParentID": 26711 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macdonald, Lewis", "ID": 2117, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lewis Macdonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "3. Lewis Macdonald (Aberdeen Central) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 188.0, "ContributionID": 705924, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what areas of policy it plans to treat cross-departmentally to fulfil its commitment to integrated government. (S1O148) Thank you, Mr Presiding Officer, for giving me the opportunity to be the first member to ask the same question twice at the same meeting.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what areas of policy it plans to treat cross-departmentally to fulfil its commitment to integrated government. (S1O148) Thank you, Mr Presiding Officer, for giving me the opportunity to be the first member to ask the same question twice at the same meeting.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C705927", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26710, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 143.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26711, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 144.0, "QuestionHeading": "Integrated Government", "QuestionHeadingID": 26714, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 187.0, "DisplayOrder": 187.0, "ID": 26714, "ParentID": 26711 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 194.0, "ContributionID": 705927, "EditedText": "I congratulate LewisMacdonald on that omnibus supplementary question, which covered a remarkable range of issues. I was talking specifically about the machinery of central Government, but I accept that it is important that such models are also considered locally and that we try to build the same level of co-operation and integration in our attack on urban and rural regeneration. I fear that all of us think about our own patch when such matters are raised. In the city of Glasgow, Glasgow Alliance has an effective focus. It is trying to ensure that the £1.5 billion of public funds that goes into agencies in Glasgow every year has the maximum impact by developing a genuinely co-ordinated approach and by ensuring that when relevant organisations take decisions on their areas of responsibility, they bear in mind what other agencies are doing. Each should buttress the others' efforts, which is the right approach. The attack on deprivation and poverty and the fight to unlock opportunity for the disadvantaged is an enormously important priority not only for this Administration, but, I hope, for the entire Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "I congratulate Lewis

Macdonald on that omnibus supplementary question, which covered a remarkable range of issues.

I was talking specifically about the machinery of central Government, but I accept that it is important that such models are also considered locally and that we try to build the same level of co-operation and integration in our attack on urban and rural regeneration.

I fear that all of us think about our own patch when such matters are raised. In the city of Glasgow, Glasgow Alliance has an effective focus. It is trying to ensure that the £1.5 billion of public funds that goes into agencies in Glasgow every year has the maximum impact by developing a genuinely co-ordinated approach and by ensuring that when relevant organisations take decisions on their areas of responsibility, they bear in mind what other agencies are doing. Each should buttress the others' efforts, which is the right approach.

The attack on deprivation and poverty and the fight to unlock opportunity for the disadvantaged is an enormously important priority not only for this Administration, but, I hope, for the entire Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C705934", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26710, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 143.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26711, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 144.0, "QuestionHeading": "Integrated Government", "QuestionHeadingID": 26714, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 187.0, "DisplayOrder": 187.0, "ID": 26714, "ParentID": 26711 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 208.0, "ContributionID": 705934, "EditedText": "That concludes question time. It might be helpful for members to know that, following the constructive letter about question time that I received from the First Minister and the general feeling that perhaps others should be able to ask questions, I have had a meeting with the Convener of the Procedures Committee. Whoever else is on holiday, the Procedures Committee certainly will not be. The committee will consider the matter urgently over the recess, so we might have a slightly more generous form of question time after the recess.", "EditedTextHTML": "That concludes question time.

It might be helpful for members to know that, following the constructive letter about question time that I received from the First Minister and the general feeling that perhaps others should be able

to ask questions, I have had a meeting with the Convener of the Procedures Committee. Whoever else is on holiday, the Procedures Committee certainly will not be. The committee will consider the matter urgently over the recess, so we might have a slightly more generous form of question time after the recess.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C705935", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 211.0, "ContributionID": 705935, "EditedText": "The next item of business is a ministerial statement on the McIntosh commission report.", "EditedTextHTML": "The next item of business is a ministerial statement on the McIntosh commission report.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C705937", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 215.0, "ContributionID": 705937, "EditedText": "I will not answer the point of order just now, but I have been reflecting on precisely the same point. If I may, I will deal with it privately afterwards. I call on Wendy Alexander to make the statement. There will be questions at the end of the statement before we move on to the debate, so there should be no interventions during the statement.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will not answer the point of order just now, but I have been reflecting on precisely the same point. If I may, I will deal with it privately afterwards.

I call on Wendy Alexander to make the statement. There will be questions at the end of the statement before we move on to the debate, so there should be no interventions during the statement.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C705941", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 224.0, "ContributionID": 705941, "EditedText": "I disagree wholeheartedly with Tommy Sheridan's assessment of the council tax. I am astonished that someone who purports to be a socialist should stand up and recommend that Scotland is left without any form of personal property taxation. On his second question, it is for this Parliament, this Executive, our Local Government Committee and COSLA to make the decisions about financing local government. We see no need to outsource that process to any independent body. Contrary to what Tommy Sheridan suggests, we are suggesting immediate progress on a number of fronts rather than a review, which would be likely to take two years if its time scale were comparable to that involved with the McIntosh commission.", "EditedTextHTML": "I disagree wholeheartedly with Tommy Sheridan's assessment of the council tax. I am astonished that someone who purports to be a socialist should stand up and recommend that Scotland is left without any form of personal property taxation. On his second question, it is for this Parliament, this Executive, our Local Government Committee and COSLA to make the decisions about financing local government. We see no need to outsource that process to any independent body. Contrary to what Tommy Sheridan suggests, we are suggesting immediate progress on a number of fronts rather than a review, which would be likely to take two years if its time scale were comparable to that involved with the McIntosh commission.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C705948", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 238.0, "ContributionID": 705948, "EditedText": "Do you want to make a contribution, Mr Henry?", "EditedTextHTML": "Do you want to make a contribution, Mr Henry?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C705952", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 246.0, "ContributionID": 705952, "EditedText": "Thank you. I call Mr Andy Kerr.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you. I call Mr Andy Kerr.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1908E166P251C705953", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Kerr, Andy", "ID": 1908, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Kilbride" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andy Kerr", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Andy Kerr (East Kilbride) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 248.0, "ContributionID": 705953, "EditedText": "Several authorities have done a lot of work to consult communities. Will the minister use those authorities as models of best practice throughout Scotland?", "EditedTextHTML": "Several authorities have done a lot of work to consult communities. Will the minister use those authorities as models of best practice throughout Scotland?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C705958", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 258.0, "ContributionID": 705958, "EditedText": "We accept the overwhelming majority of the recommendations. Some of them we accept only in part, and that is what the consultation exercise will flesh out. We want to move as quickly as possible on as many of the recommendations as we can, but it is not possible to go further than that in advance of the consultation exercise, in which we expect COSLA and individual councils to be closely involved.", "EditedTextHTML": "We accept the overwhelming majority of the recommendations. Some of them we accept only in part, and that is what the consultation exercise will flesh out. We want to move as quickly as possible on as many of the recommendations as we can, but it is not possible to go further than that in advance of the consultation exercise, in which we expect COSLA and individual councils to be closely involved.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C705972", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 290.0, "ContributionID": 705972, "EditedText": "Mr Adam, please wind up when you respond.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Adam, please wind up when you respond.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1973E119P326C705967", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gorrie, Donald", "ID": 1973, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Donald Gorrie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Donald Gorrie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 279.0, "ContributionID": 705967, "EditedText": "Members can work it out for themselves. It is not a sin not to understand proportional representation, but it is sensible to discuss it and we will welcome taking part in the debate. We feel strongly that the single transferable vote is easily the best system, because it gives the power to the voters and not to the organisations—which is why organisations are against it. The list systems are awful; the recent European election was awful and, although I got in to this place on a list, I would far prefer to get in by STV. I am all for giving the power to the voter and we will fight hard for that. We welcome the approach to proportional representation, our position on which is well known. I also put down a marker, here and throughout the country, that our party is very keen on having a proper, overall inquiry into local government finance. We will be happy to co-operate in an overall review, whether it takes the form of a freestanding, independent commission, or is done through the Local Government Committee, using independent advisers. The minister was misleading in one respect when she set out the aspects of local government finance that she thinks, sensibily, need to be looked at in the short term and said that she thought it was an either/or choice between doing that and having an overall review. I do not think that that is the case at all; we can have short or medium-term changes, but we must also look at the long term.", "EditedTextHTML": "Members can work it out for themselves.

It is not a sin not to understand proportional representation, but it is sensible to discuss it and we will welcome taking part in the debate. We feel strongly that the single transferable vote is easily the best system, because it gives the power to the voters and not to the organisations—which is why organisations are against it. The list systems are awful; the recent European election was awful and, although I got in to this place on a list, I would far prefer to get in by STV. I am all for giving the power to the voter and we will fight hard for that. We welcome the approach to proportional representation, our position on which is well known.

I also put down a marker, here and throughout the country, that our party is very keen on having a proper, overall inquiry into local government finance. We will be happy to co-operate in an overall review, whether it takes the form of a freestanding, independent commission, or is done through the Local Government Committee, using independent advisers. The minister was misleading in one respect when she set out the aspects of local government finance that she thinks, sensibily, need to be looked at in the short term and said that she thought it was an either/or choice between doing that and having an overall review. I do not think that that is the case at all; we can have short or medium-term changes, but we must also look at the long term.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1973E119P326C705969", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gorrie, Donald", "ID": 1973, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Donald Gorrie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Donald Gorrie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 283.0, "ContributionID": 705969, "EditedText": "If one builds a local government system in which local government raises only 20 per cent of its money, one is building on sand. That system must be reformed. We feel strongly that, one way or another, there must be a really independent inquiry. On all those issues, the Liberal Democrats will be happy to co-operate and to work hard for the benefit of local government. We have a huge opportunity. Let us not miss it.", "EditedTextHTML": "If one builds a local government system in which local government raises only 20 per cent of its money, one is building on sand. That system must be reformed. We feel strongly that, one way or another, there must be a really independent inquiry.

On all those issues, the Liberal Democrats will be happy to co-operate and to work hard for the benefit of local government. We have a huge opportunity. Let us not miss it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C705971", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr David Davidson (North-East Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 288.0, "ContributionID": 705971, "EditedText": "I take it that Brian Adam is winding up to say that this Parliament is all the better for having the Conservative list contingent here today, along with people such as him, so that we reflect society. I assume that he will expand on that point, but I thank him for noticing that we are here this morning, unlike many other members.", "EditedTextHTML": "I take it that Brian Adam is winding up to say that this Parliament is all the better for having the Conservative list contingent here today, along with people such as him, so that we reflect society. I assume that he will expand on that point, but I thank him for noticing that we are here this morning, unlike many other members.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1926E190P479C705975", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Adam, Brian", "ID": 1926, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Adam", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Brian Adam: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 296.0, "ContributionID": 705975, "EditedText": "That is a fourfold difference.That does not reflect any kind of fair voting. It happened in Aberdeen, but the same is true throughout Scotland. It is a travesty of a result, an affront to democracy and an insult to the voters. The same can be said in many areas. This is not idle whingeing. Such results matter because they are unjust, not just to my party, but to many other parties and to the voters.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is a fourfold difference.

That does not reflect any kind of fair voting. It happened in Aberdeen, but the same is true throughout Scotland. It is a travesty of a result, an affront to democracy and an insult to the voters. The same can be said in many areas.

This is not idle whingeing. Such results matter because they are unjust, not just to my party, but to many other parties and to the voters.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C705976", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 298.0, "ContributionID": 705976, "EditedText": "Please come to a close now, Mr Adam.", "EditedTextHTML": "Please come to a close now, Mr Adam.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C705981", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 310.0, "ContributionID": 705981, "EditedText": "Please wind up now.", "EditedTextHTML": "Please wind up now.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1970E66P288C705983", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNulty, Des", "ID": 1970, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Clydebank and Milngavie" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Des McNulty", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Des McNulty (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 315.0, "ContributionID": 705983, "EditedText": "I welcome the McIntosh report and the minister's initial response. I have three main points. First, the financial settlement that was imposed on local government following its reorganisation was manifestly unfair to local authorities with high concentrations of multiple deprivation. That reorganisation—partisan in nature—resulted in disruption and major reductions in services in many parts of Scotland; it affected the operation of voluntary organisations and community services, as well as that of local councils. I was working with Neil McIntosh at the time of reorganisation and I know the efforts that he and his colleagues in local government were obliged to make to combat the uncertainty generated by an illogical and ill thought through reorganisation. The most lasting damage was done in terms of finance. The current system for allocation of local government finance takes little account of need: cash is distributed on a population basis, almost irrespective of the social and economic circumstances of the different localities in Scotland. We need to address that unfairness as a matter of urgency. We cannot allow two or three years more of misery in places such as West Dunbartonshire, which has the highest unemployment of any local authority area in Scotland. Financial allocations should be determined on the basis of clear principles and need must be at the core of the discussions. There will be winners and losers in any distribution change.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the McIntosh report and the minister's initial response.

I have three main points. First, the financial settlement that was imposed on local government following its reorganisation was manifestly unfair to local authorities with high concentrations of multiple deprivation. That reorganisation—partisan in nature—resulted in disruption and major reductions in services in many parts of Scotland; it affected the operation of voluntary organisations and community services, as well as that of local councils. I was working with Neil McIntosh at the time of reorganisation and I know the efforts that he and his colleagues in local government were obliged to make to combat the uncertainty generated by an illogical and ill thought through reorganisation.

The most lasting damage was done in terms of finance. The current system for allocation of local government finance takes little account of need: cash is distributed on a population basis, almost irrespective of the social and economic circumstances of the different localities in Scotland. We need to address that unfairness as a matter of urgency. We cannot allow two or three years more of misery in places such as West

Dunbartonshire, which has the highest unemployment of any local authority area in Scotland.

Financial allocations should be determined on the basis of clear principles and need must be at the core of the discussions. There will be winners and losers in any distribution change.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1970E66P288C705991", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNulty, Des", "ID": 1970, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Clydebank and Milngavie" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Des McNulty", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Des McNulty: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 331.0, "ContributionID": 705991, "EditedText": "I detect no upsurge or pressure for the creation of list councillors in Scotland; nobody wants that or sees it as part of the panacea. I think that Donald Gorrie put an argument against proportional representation of which we must take proper account. The implementation of proportional representation runs the risk of handing power from the electors to the party managers. Remember Portillo—the people of Enfield threw him out. Some systems of proportional representation will not allow the voters that same opportunity. If we are to have proper, accountable local government, it is vital that the voters can get rid of people who are not doing the business, and that is the central aspect of democratic accountability—and one which we should sustain.", "EditedTextHTML": "I detect no upsurge or pressure for the creation of list councillors in Scotland; nobody wants that or sees it as part of the panacea. I think that Donald Gorrie put an argument against proportional representation of which we must take proper account.

The implementation of proportional representation runs the risk of handing power from the electors to the party managers. Remember Portillo—the people of Enfield threw him out. Some systems of proportional representation will not allow the voters that same opportunity. If we are to have proper, accountable local government, it is vital that the voters can get rid of people who are not doing the business, and that is the central aspect of democratic accountability—and one which we should sustain.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1950E155P451C706005", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Campbell, Colin", "ID": 1950, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Colin Campbell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Colin Campbell (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 366.0, "ContributionID": 706005, "EditedText": "I rise with a note of dissent—my colleague Kenneth Gibson is trading in the metaphorical trench warfare equipment of his Glasgow council experiences. I feel that we are all afloat in a sea of consensus that is unlike anything on which we have floated for a very long time. I will strike a discordant note in referring to the fudge that Kenny mentioned in relation to the power of general competence. The minister's speech was beautifully delivered, but here and there the voice fell and the wording changed. In other areas of interest in which the minister is enthusiastic we hear phrases such as \"happy to endorse\", \"inform the process and lead\", \"I accept them all\", \"sympathetic\" and \"committed\". Then we get to general competence. Ms Alexander said: \"I want to consult carefully on the case for a power of general competence.\" That is just a wee bit canny and cautious—I hope more by accident than by design. She also spoke about consultation. Those of us who have been out in the world in local authorities—or even as citizens before we ever got into politics—have come against consultation head on. As has been mentioned, when a council says that it will close a school, it has a statutory obligation to consult. The consultation is carried out; the council listens and closes the school anyway. Consultation has a bad name. We all have a heavy responsibility to ensure that we make consultation a meaningful process that draws people into the decision-making process. We endorse the McIntosh commission recommendations because the essence of the report was in the Scottish National party's 1999 general election manifesto and in our 1999 local government manifesto; indeed, much of it was in our submission to the commission. The principle of subsidiarity is important and the power of general competence is part of that. I conclude by saying simply that our commitment to real democracy will be judged by the extent to which we devolve power down the system away from ourselves.", "EditedTextHTML": "I rise with a note of dissent—my colleague Kenneth Gibson is trading in the metaphorical trench warfare equipment of his Glasgow council experiences. I feel that we are all afloat in a sea of consensus that is unlike anything on which we have floated for a very long time. I will strike a discordant note in referring to the fudge that Kenny mentioned in relation to the power of general competence.

The minister's speech was beautifully delivered, but here and there the voice fell and the wording changed. In other areas of interest in which the minister is enthusiastic we hear phrases such as

\"happy to endorse\", \"inform the process and lead\", \"I accept them all\", \"sympathetic\" and \"committed\". Then we get to general competence. Ms Alexander said:

\"I want to consult carefully on the case for a power of general competence.\"

That is just a wee bit canny and cautious—I hope more by accident than by design.

She also spoke about consultation. Those of us who have been out in the world in local authorities—or even as citizens before we ever got into politics—have come against consultation head on. As has been mentioned, when a council says that it will close a school, it has a statutory obligation to consult. The consultation is carried out; the council listens and closes the school anyway. Consultation has a bad name. We all have a heavy responsibility to ensure that we make consultation a meaningful process that draws people into the decision-making process.

We endorse the McIntosh commission recommendations because the essence of the report was in the Scottish National party's 1999 general election manifesto and in our 1999 local government manifesto; indeed, much of it was in our submission to the commission. The principle of subsidiarity is important and the power of general competence is part of that. I conclude by saying simply that our commitment to real democracy will be judged by the extent to which we devolve power down the system away from ourselves.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1996E124P211C706018", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAveety, Mr Frank", "ID": 1996, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Shettleston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Local Government", "SpeakerName": "Frank McAveety", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McAveety: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 396.0, "ContributionID": 706018, "EditedText": "Mr Sheridan takes a very narrow perspective, but I will answer his question. The roots of poverty go back beyond 1997. Families have experienced mass unemployment and a lack of employment opportunity; communities have been scarred. It takes longer than two years to retrieve that situation. It is okay for members of the SNP to support Mr Sheridan in this debate—as they have often done in debates in this chamber— but the record since this Government came into office in 1997 shows that it has made a sustained attack on child poverty. I am delighted to say that we stand on that record.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Sheridan takes a very narrow perspective, but I will answer his question. The roots of poverty go back beyond 1997. Families have experienced mass unemployment and a lack of employment opportunity; communities have been scarred. It takes longer than two years to retrieve that situation. It is okay for members of the SNP to support Mr Sheridan in this debate—as they have often done in debates in this chamber— but the record since this Government came into office in 1997 shows that it has made a sustained attack on child poverty. I am delighted to say that we stand on that record.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C706019", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 398.0, "ContributionID": 706019, "EditedText": "Child poverty is increasing.", "EditedTextHTML": "Child poverty is increasing.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1768E72P274C706009", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Murray, Elaine", "ID": 1768, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumfries" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Murray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Elaine Murray (Dumfries) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 376.0, "ContributionID": 706009, "EditedText": "In view of the earlier comments made by Mr Mundell, wonder if Bill Aitken will outline how rural schools will be protected should education be centred in Edinburgh.", "EditedTextHTML": "In view of the earlier comments made by Mr Mundell, wonder if Bill Aitken will outline how rural schools will be protected should education be centred in Edinburgh.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C706017", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 394.0, "ContributionID": 706017, "EditedText": "In 1997, the proportion of schoolchildren in Glasgow who were receiving free school meals because they were living in poverty- stricken families was, as Mr McAveety knows, 37 per cent. By 1999, it had risen to 43 per cent. Why has poverty increased under the Labour Government?", "EditedTextHTML": "In 1997, the proportion of schoolchildren in Glasgow who were receiving free school meals because they were living in poverty- stricken families was, as Mr McAveety knows, 37 per cent. By 1999, it had risen to 43 per cent. Why has poverty increased under the Labour Government?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C706012", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bruce Crawford (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 383.0, "ContributionID": 706012, "EditedText": "I think that we can all be confident that everybody in local government will recognise that the consultation process undertaken by the McIntosh commission has been an exemplar in terms of active listening and deserved outcome. It would be too much to expect everyone to be fully satisfied with the outcome of the commission's work. The least that we can expect is for all, especially the Government, to give its findings full, detailed and proper consideration. From the minister's statement, I am glad to see that the Executive has, for the most part, embraced the spirit of the commission's findings. Having said that, I am concerned, like others, about the departure from the report of an independent inquiry into local government finance. I am disappointed that the Executive has not considered building on the commission's report by taking the imaginative step of announcing how it may deal with community planning powers for local government. The minister will be aware that for the past year, five local authorities—I will not name them because of time restrictions—have been battling the authorities in that area. I hope that the deputy minister will deal with that in his summing up and tell us when we can expect that area to be considered. I will comment quickly on the prospect of proportional representation, local government, pay and conditions for councillors and the potential for executives. The Executive is be applauded for not allowing the self-interest factions, which have been so vociferous in the past 10 days, to deflect them from the path of improved democratisation in local government. It is good to see recognition of the fact that changes are badly required in political decision making and remuneration. It is a great pity that the political dinosaurs who currently form the administration of Perth and Kinross Council do not have the foresight to grasp this culture of change. That unholy coalition of Tory, Labour and Liberal councillors recently refused to endorse a report from a forward-looking chief executive who recommended a review of the council's political decision-making process and remuneration packages for councillors. Perhaps the minister would have a word in the ear of the Labour provost, the Tory depute provost and, while she is at it, the Liberal depute leader of the administration, and see if she can drag them into this century before we reach the next. Impossible tasks aside, I would like quickly to turn to the matter of local government finance. I say in all sincerity that, in terms of laying down a solid foundation for the future and creating a real and meaningful relationship between local government and the Parliament, all the good intentions could be in danger of being undermined if we do not have an independent review. We need an independent review with a brief to establish a needs-based methodology that assesses the demographic and social profile of an authority, and not just on the basis of per head of population and geographical location. The issue is not just about how the cake is distributed: it is also about the size of the cake—the amount of money that is available to local authorities. That needs to be taken on board. McIntosh raised that issue in his report because of the din that was made by local authorities across Scotland. Indeed, that din was converted into fine words by COSLA in its document about local government in Scotland, which was endorsed earlier this year by all of Scotland's former council leaders, including Frank McAveety, who is now Deputy Minister for Local Government, Kate MacLean, Tom McCabe, Ian Welsh, Peter Peacock, and, I have no doubt, many other councillors here. I hope that they will continue to lobby in the same way that they did when they signed up to that contract. This has been an interesting and lively debate. I will make one final point, because I can see the Deputy Presiding Officer looking at me. It is crucial that we agree to four-year terms for councillors, but it is also crucial that we resist robustly the idea of having council elections on the same day as the parliamentary elections. That would not be good for democracy and the empowerment of local authorities in this country.", "EditedTextHTML": "I think that we can all be confident that everybody in local government will recognise that the consultation process undertaken by the McIntosh commission has been an exemplar in terms of active listening and deserved outcome. It would be too much to expect everyone to be fully satisfied with the outcome of the commission's work. The least that we can expect is for all, especially the Government, to give its findings full, detailed and proper consideration.

From the minister's statement, I am glad to see that the Executive has, for the most part, embraced the spirit of the commission's findings. Having said that, I am concerned, like others, about the departure from the report of an independent inquiry into local government finance. I am disappointed that the Executive has not considered building on the commission's report by taking the imaginative step of announcing how it may deal with community planning powers for local government. The minister will be aware that for the past year, five local authorities—I will not name them because of time restrictions—have been battling the authorities in that area. I hope that the deputy minister will deal with that in his summing up and tell us when we can expect that area to be considered.

I will comment quickly on the prospect of proportional representation, local government, pay and conditions for councillors and the potential for executives. The Executive is be applauded for not allowing the self-interest factions, which have been so vociferous in the past 10 days, to deflect them from the path of improved democratisation in local government. It is good to see recognition of the fact that changes are badly required in political decision making and remuneration.

It is a great pity that the political dinosaurs who currently form the administration of Perth and Kinross Council do not have the foresight to grasp this culture of change. That unholy coalition of Tory, Labour and Liberal councillors recently refused to endorse a report from a forward-looking chief executive who recommended a review of the council's political decision-making process and remuneration packages for councillors. Perhaps the minister would have a word in the ear of the

Labour provost, the Tory depute provost and, while she is at it, the Liberal depute leader of the administration, and see if she can drag them into this century before we reach the next.

Impossible tasks aside, I would like quickly to turn to the matter of local government finance. I say in all sincerity that, in terms of laying down a solid foundation for the future and creating a real and meaningful relationship between local government and the Parliament, all the good intentions could be in danger of being undermined if we do not have an independent review.

We need an independent review with a brief to establish a needs-based methodology that assesses the demographic and social profile of an authority, and not just on the basis of per head of population and geographical location. The issue is not just about how the cake is distributed: it is also about the size of the cake—the amount of money that is available to local authorities. That needs to be taken on board.

McIntosh raised that issue in his report because of the din that was made by local authorities across Scotland. Indeed, that din was converted into fine words by COSLA in its document about local government in Scotland, which was endorsed earlier this year by all of Scotland's former council leaders, including Frank McAveety, who is now Deputy Minister for Local Government, Kate MacLean, Tom McCabe, Ian Welsh, Peter Peacock, and, I have no doubt, many other councillors here. I hope that they will continue to lobby in the same way that they did when they signed up to that contract.

This has been an interesting and lively debate. I will make one final point, because I can see the Deputy Presiding Officer looking at me. It is crucial that we agree to four-year terms for councillors, but it is also crucial that we resist robustly the idea of having council elections on the same day as the parliamentary elections. That would not be good for democracy and the empowerment of local authorities in this country.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C706013", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 385.0, "ContributionID": 706013, "EditedText": "I call Mr Frank McAveety to wind up this debate.", "EditedTextHTML": "I call Mr Frank McAveety to wind up this debate.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C706021", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 402.0, "ContributionID": 706021, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1996E124P211C706022", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAveety, Mr Frank", "ID": 1996, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Shettleston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Local Government", "SpeakerName": "Frank McAveety", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McAveety: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 404.0, "ContributionID": 706022, "EditedText": "I will give way to Mr Salmond in a moment. Can he say what measures this Government has not taken to deal with child poverty? I have identified a series of measures, which the Labour Government, in conjunction with its Labour colleagues in local Government, will implement to tackle the problem.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will give way to Mr Salmond in a moment. Can he say what measures this Government has not taken to deal with child poverty? I have identified a series of measures, which the Labour Government, in conjunction with its Labour colleagues in local Government, will implement to tackle the problem.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1996E124P211C706024", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAveety, Mr Frank", "ID": 1996, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Shettleston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Local Government", "SpeakerName": "Frank McAveety", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McAveety: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 408.0, "ContributionID": 706024, "EditedText": "I hear Mr Sheridan say that the measures are not working. Has Mr Sheridan rejected the social inclusion partnership money for the greater Pollok area? Has he rejected the investment in secondary schools that has been made right across Glasgow? Does he recognise the investment in the baseline assessments for local government—4.8 per cent more than in the past two years—and the commitment that was made to local government in the comprehensive spending review? There is an opportunity to change. If Mr Sheridan wants to hold a fixed view, along with his colleagues in the SNP—there seems to be collusion between them on this issue—that is fine, but we want to move forward.", "EditedTextHTML": "I hear Mr Sheridan say that the measures are not working. Has Mr Sheridan

rejected the social inclusion partnership money for the greater Pollok area? Has he rejected the investment in secondary schools that has been made right across Glasgow? Does he recognise the investment in the baseline assessments for local government—4.8 per cent more than in the past two years—and the commitment that was made to local government in the comprehensive spending review? There is an opportunity to change. If Mr Sheridan wants to hold a fixed view, along with his colleagues in the SNP—there seems to be collusion between them on this issue—that is fine, but we want to move forward.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C706028", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 416.0, "ContributionID": 706028, "EditedText": "The minister has indicated that he will allow Mr Salmond to intervene shortly.", "EditedTextHTML": "The minister has indicated that he will allow Mr Salmond to intervene shortly.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1996E124P211C706029", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAveety, Mr Frank", "ID": 1996, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Shettleston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Local Government", "SpeakerName": "Frank McAveety", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McAveety: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 418.0, "ContributionID": 706029, "EditedText": "I may consider doing so later in my speech. Mr Deputy Presiding Officer, local government seeks parity of esteem. The statement that the Minister for Communities made today indicates that we, too, seek that. It is rather like a brother and sister relationship. I say that with due respect to Wendy Alexander, who this week was disgracefully attacked by the Conservatives in a press release, which made reference to the relationship between her and her brother, Douglas. We want to rise above that puerile contribution. Applause. Like a brother and sister, local government and this new Parliament have something in common. We want to get on, but we sometimes have blazing rows. However, like a brother and sister, we can make up. In the first few hours of this new Parliament, and over the next few years, we need to ensure that we bind together the family of government, so that the government can makeParliament is only hours old. Parliament a differeand nce. local Our Mr Salmond rose—", "EditedTextHTML": "I may consider doing so later in my speech.

Mr Deputy Presiding Officer, local government seeks parity of esteem. The statement that the Minister for Communities made today indicates that we, too, seek that. It is rather like a brother and sister relationship. I say that with due respect to Wendy Alexander, who this week was disgracefully attacked by the Conservatives in a press release, which made reference to the relationship between her and her brother, Douglas. We want to rise above that puerile contribution. [Applause.]

Like a brother and sister, local government and this new Parliament have something in common. We want to get on, but we sometimes have blazing rows. However, like a brother and sister, we can make up. In the first few hours of this new Parliament, and over the next few years, we need to ensure that we bind together the family of government, so that the government can makeParliament is only hours old. Parliament a differeand nce. local Our Mr Salmond rose—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1996E124P211C706030", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAveety, Mr Frank", "ID": 1996, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Shettleston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Local Government", "SpeakerName": "Frank McAveety", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McAveety: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 420.0, "ContributionID": 706030, "EditedText": "I will let you in in a moment, Mr Salmond. We are debating an issue which is about real people, real places and real things. It does not involve endless debates about constitutional settlements, or saying that the idea was fixed in time from May 1999. It is not about making the same point over and over again, saying, \"If only Scotland had voted a different way.\" It is not, Mr Salmond, about endless reruns of \"The Great Escape\", with John Swinney as the dashing Steve McQueen, or Dorothy in \"The Wizard of Oz\" on the yellow brick road—with due respect to my friend and colleague Dorothy-Grace Elder. I wish to conclude on four guiding principles. MEMBERS: \"Give way.\" I will give way to Mr Salmond.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will let you in in a moment, Mr Salmond.

We are debating an issue which is about real people, real places and real things. It does not involve endless debates about constitutional settlements, or saying that the idea was fixed in time from May 1999. It is not about making the same point over and over again, saying, \"If only Scotland had voted a different way.\" It is not, Mr Salmond, about endless reruns of \"The Great Escape\", with John Swinney as the dashing Steve

McQueen, or Dorothy in \"The Wizard of Oz\" on the yellow brick road—with due respect to my friend and colleague Dorothy-Grace Elder.

I wish to conclude on four guiding principles. [MEMBERS: \"Give way.\"] I will give way to Mr Salmond.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C706031", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 422.0, "ContributionID": 706031, "EditedText": "Can I drag the deputy minister back to the subject that he is trying to get away from? Applause. Poverty has deep, underlying causes. Every member in this chamber will agree with that, but the question that he was asked was why it has been increasing over the last two years, according to the measurement which Mr Sheridan gave. It is a legitimate question, whether asked by a member of the Scottish Socialist party, by the Scottish National party or by any member of this chamber. I suggest that the minister stops dodging it and starts answering it.", "EditedTextHTML": "Can I drag the deputy minister back to the subject that he is trying to get away from? [Applause.] Poverty has deep, underlying causes. Every member in this chamber will agree with that, but the question that he was asked was why it has been increasing over the last two years, according to the measurement which Mr Sheridan gave. It is a legitimate question, whether asked by a member of the Scottish Socialist party, by the Scottish National party or by any member of this chamber. I suggest that the minister stops dodging it and starts answering it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1996E124P211C706032", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAveety, Mr Frank", "ID": 1996, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Shettleston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Local Government", "SpeakerName": "Frank McAveety", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McAveety: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 424.0, "ContributionID": 706032, "EditedText": "I hope that I am allowed the time to reiterate what I said earlier, which Mr Salmond seems to have ignored. MEMBERS: \"Answer the question.\" I am trying to answer the question, if members would allow me to do so. The deep, underlying causes of poverty go back long before 1997, which Mr Salmond accepted. The Labour Government has engaged in a series of measures—and will continue to do so—to tackle the underlying causes of poverty. I have already mentioned the series of policy developments that we have made. I do not wish to repeat them, and if members do not like them, tough—they are actually happening. I recognise that a consensus is developing on the principles underlying our response to the McIntosh report. This chamber wholeheartedly supports the idea of making a commitment to ensure ethical standards in public office. We are committed to identifying ways in which leadership can make a difference at a local level, irrespective of party or individual. Each and every one of us has a responsibility on that. We want a full and honest debate on democratic renewal, electoral systems and how to support local government in its job. It is important for us to engage in that process. COSLA has asked for nothing less.", "EditedTextHTML": "I hope that I am allowed the time to reiterate what I said earlier, which Mr Salmond seems to have ignored. [MEMBERS: \"Answer the question.\"] I am trying to answer the question, if members would allow me to do so. The deep, underlying causes of poverty go back long before 1997, which Mr Salmond accepted. The Labour Government has engaged in a series of measures—and will continue to do so—to tackle the underlying causes of poverty. I have already mentioned the series of policy developments that we have made. I do not wish to repeat them, and if members do not like them, tough—they are actually happening.

I recognise that a consensus is developing on the principles underlying our response to the McIntosh report. This chamber wholeheartedly supports the idea of making a commitment to ensure ethical standards in public office. We are committed to identifying ways in which leadership can make a difference at a local level, irrespective of party or individual. Each and every one of us has a responsibility on that. We want a full and honest debate on democratic renewal, electoral systems and how to support local government in its job. It is important for us to engage in that process. COSLA has asked for nothing less.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C706034", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 428.0, "ContributionID": 706034, "EditedText": "The minister is winding up.", "EditedTextHTML": "The minister is winding up.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1996E124P211C706035", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAveety, Mr Frank", "ID": 1996, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Shettleston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Local Government", "SpeakerName": "Frank McAveety", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McAveety: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 430.0, "ContributionID": 706035, "EditedText": "On partnership, there is a shared agenda for trying to ensure excellence and achievement. It is about recognising that we can move together, not about centralising powers, a proposal which some Tory members have put forward as a principle for education. It is about recognising the impact that reorganisation has had on all authorities in Scotland: it was a botched and non-consultative reorganisation. In this chamber, we have a vision of a good council flourishing and a weaker council being supported and developed. My opinion is that an agenda for excellence is a noble challenge. I think that, together, we can make the difference. I welcome the contributions from across the chamber today—no matter how heated some of the exchanges were—which were made to ensure that we in the Scottish Parliament use our role to support and develop local government, and that local government recognises our role in setting broad parameters for governance in Scotland. I hope that we can build the family of Government together, and that we can make a difference for the future.", "EditedTextHTML": "On partnership, there is a shared agenda for trying to ensure excellence and achievement. It is about recognising that we can move together, not about centralising powers, a proposal which some Tory members have put forward as a principle for education. It is about recognising the impact that reorganisation has had on all authorities in Scotland: it was a botched and non-consultative reorganisation. In this chamber,

we have a vision of a good council flourishing and a weaker council being supported and developed.

My opinion is that an agenda for excellence is a noble challenge. I think that, together, we can make the difference. I welcome the contributions from across the chamber today—no matter how heated some of the exchanges were—which were made to ensure that we in the Scottish Parliament use our role to support and develop local government, and that local government recognises our role in setting broad parameters for governance in Scotland. I hope that we can build the family of Government together, and that we can make a difference for the future.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C706038", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Student Finance (Committee of Inquiry) ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26716, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 432.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 432.0, "ID": 26716, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 438.0, "ContributionID": 706038, "EditedText": "This is a brief debate and speeches will be limited to three minutes.", "EditedTextHTML": "This is a brief debate and speeches will be limited to three minutes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C706040", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Student Finance (Committee of Inquiry) ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26716, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 432.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 432.0, "ID": 26716, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Brian Monteith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 444.0, "ContributionID": 706040, "EditedText": "I do not propose to revisit the debate on tuition fees. It would be too painful for Liberal Democrat members to be reminded of the treachery that they visited upon the Scottish electorate when they entered into their deal with Labour.", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not propose to revisit the debate on tuition fees. It would be too painful for Liberal Democrat members to be reminded of the treachery that they visited upon the Scottish electorate when they entered into their deal with Labour.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C706043", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Student Finance (Committee of Inquiry) ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26716, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 432.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 432.0, "ID": 26716, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Monteith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 450.0, "ContributionID": 706043, "EditedText": "People who know me, Donald, know that I smile a great deal. The Scottish Tories have made it clear that we oppose the creation of the committee of inquiry because we believe that free higher education is non-negotiable. To link tuition fees to the important question of student hardship is to give up on that principle, to betray it and to put it on the negotiating table. We think it important that there should be a committee of inquiry into student hardship, but that is not what is on offer here. I welcome, however, the consultation that was provided. That is an important step forward. Although we had some useful input, we are disappointed that there were some matters about which we were unable to convince the minister to change his mind. It is not our committee, nor is it Henry McLeish's committee; it is Jim Wallace's committee and we shall see how the Liberal Democrats respond to its findings. The committee, who sits on it and who chairs it, are not particularly important issues for us in the chamber today; it is not our committee. We had something to say about the committee's remit and construction and, although Mr McLeish took into account some of what we said about our concerns for Scotland-domiciled students, we were disappointed that there is only one student on the committee, not two. In limiting representation on the committee to one student, it was obvious to us that a representative of the National Union of Students would be chosen. The universities of St Andrews, Glasgow and Edinburgh, which are not members of the NUS, will not have the direct representation that they would otherwise have had. Edinburgh University Students' Association has a proud and honourable record of dealing with student welfare—it could certainly be claimed to be better than that of the NUS. The individuals who make up the committee are not our concern, but we are disappointed that there is only one student. There are four business leaders, two trade unionists—", "EditedTextHTML": "People who know me, Donald, know that I smile a great deal.

The Scottish Tories have made it clear that we oppose the creation of the committee of inquiry because we believe that free higher education is non-negotiable. To link tuition fees to the important question of student hardship is to give up on that principle, to betray it and to put it on the negotiating table. We think it important that there should be a committee of inquiry into student hardship, but that is not what is on offer here.

I welcome, however, the consultation that was provided. That is an important step forward. Although we had some useful input, we are disappointed that there were some matters about which we were unable to convince the minister to change his mind. It is not our committee, nor is it Henry McLeish's committee; it is Jim Wallace's committee and we shall see how the Liberal Democrats respond to its findings.

The committee, who sits on it and who chairs it, are not particularly important issues for us in the chamber today; it is not our committee. We had something to say about the committee's remit and construction and, although Mr McLeish took into account some of what we said about our concerns for Scotland-domiciled students, we were disappointed that there is only one student on the committee, not two. In limiting representation on the committee to one student, it was obvious to us that a representative of the National Union of

Students would be chosen. The universities of St Andrews, Glasgow and Edinburgh, which are not members of the NUS, will not have the direct representation that they would otherwise have had. Edinburgh University Students' Association has a proud and honourable record of dealing with student welfare—it could certainly be claimed to be better than that of the NUS.

The individuals who make up the committee are not our concern, but we are disappointed that there is only one student. There are four business leaders, two trade unionists—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706046", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Student Finance (Committee of Inquiry) ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26716, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 432.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 432.0, "ID": 26716, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 456.0, "ContributionID": 706046, "EditedText": "Please do not give way. You must begin to wind up now, Mr Monteith.", "EditedTextHTML": "Please do not give way. You must begin to wind up now, Mr Monteith.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706048", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Student Finance (Committee of Inquiry) ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26716, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 432.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 432.0, "ID": 26716, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 460.0, "ContributionID": 706048, "EditedText": "I am sorry, but Mr Monteith must wind up.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry, but Mr Monteith must wind up.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C706049", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Student Finance (Committee of Inquiry) ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26716, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 432.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 432.0, "ID": 26716, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Monteith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 462.0, "ContributionID": 706049, "EditedText": "It is a great disappointment that there are people from many different parts of the community on the committee, but only one student. The Scottish Tories will vote against the establishment of the committee, purely because we want to make it clear that, as a matter of consistency, we believe that there is no need for that committee to discuss tuition fees. It is a matter of principle. Were the minister to have proposed a committee to discuss student hardship, we would have supported it. We thank him for the period of consultation, but we must be consistent—unlike some of the other members of this chamber.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is a great disappointment that there are people from many different parts of the community on the committee, but only one student. The Scottish Tories will vote against the establishment of the committee, purely because we want to make it clear that, as a matter of consistency, we believe that there is no need for that committee to discuss tuition fees. It is a matter of principle. Were the minister to have proposed a committee to discuss student hardship, we would have supported it. We thank him for the period of consultation, but we must be consistent—unlike some of the other members of this chamber.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706051", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Student Finance (Committee of Inquiry) ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26716, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 432.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 432.0, "ID": 26716, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 466.0, "ContributionID": 706051, "EditedText": "I hope that it is genuine.", "EditedTextHTML": "I hope that it is genuine.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C706057", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Student Finance (Committee of Inquiry) ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26716, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 432.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 432.0, "ID": 26716, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 480.0, "ContributionID": 706057, "EditedText": "I fear that after 55 days we should not be too optimistic—the new politics has some way to go. Nothing that has been said this morning nullifies the need for an independent examination of the major issues that are at stake. I say to Brian Monteith that of course student hardship will be examined. It is important that it is examined in relation to widening access and to tuition fees and their impact on the number of school pupils applying to university. That is already in the committee's terms of reference. I say to Dennis that everyone signs up to the new politics and then says that they want the people to get loose vis-à-vis representatives on an inquiry. Well, hang on a minute. Politicians can use the general election, parliamentarians can use the Parliament, so what has anyone got to fear from 14 people—who might be representative of real substantive issues—looking at the matter and giving the Parliament and the Executive the wisdom of that inquiry?", "EditedTextHTML": "I fear that after 55 days we should not be too optimistic—the new politics has some way to go. Nothing that has been said this morning nullifies the need for an independent examination of the major issues that are at stake. I say to Brian Monteith that of course student hardship will be examined. It is important that it is examined in relation to widening access and to tuition fees and their impact on the number of school pupils applying to university. That is already in the committee's terms of reference.

I say to Dennis that everyone signs up to the new politics and then says that they want the people to get loose vis-à-vis representatives on an inquiry. Well, hang on a minute. Politicians can use the general election, parliamentarians can use the Parliament, so what has anyone got to fear from 14 people—who might be representative of real substantive issues—looking at the matter and giving the Parliament and the Executive the wisdom of that inquiry?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C706058", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Student Finance (Committee of Inquiry) ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26716, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 432.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 432.0, "ID": 26716, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Alex Salmond (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 482.0, "ContributionID": 706058, "EditedText": "Will Mr McLeish give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "

Will Mr McLeish give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C706061", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Student Finance (Committee of Inquiry) ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26716, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 432.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 432.0, "ID": 26716, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 488.0, "ContributionID": 706061, "EditedText": "I am not giving way, John, because I am just about to finish. This is broadly based, it is the way in which weshould go forward and I repeat that nobody is making a concession. Remember that the Parliament has already passed the motion to set up a committee of inquiry. With two of the major parties opposing the committee, we are, in a sense, throwing out one of our first decisions. I ask colleagues to reflect on that simple point—the integrity of this chamber, in terms of the issues it discusses, is at stake. I make a plea to members to allow the committee to be united in its purpose of examining the inquiry issues and coming back to us with its findings.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am not giving way, John, because I am just about to finish.

This is broadly based, it is the way in which we

should go forward and I repeat that nobody is making a concession. Remember that the Parliament has already passed the motion to set up a committee of inquiry. With two of the major parties opposing the committee, we are, in a sense, throwing out one of our first decisions. I ask colleagues to reflect on that simple point—the integrity of this chamber, in terms of the issues it discusses, is at stake. I make a plea to members to allow the committee to be united in its purpose of examining the inquiry issues and coming back to us with its findings.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706063", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Student Finance (Committee of Inquiry) ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26716, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 432.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 432.0, "ID": 26716, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 492.0, "ContributionID": 706063, "EditedText": "I am sorry, but I have not selected that amendment. There will be a vote on the motion as a whole. Before we move to decision time, I call Mr Tom McCabe to move motion S1M-83 and Mr Mike Rumbles to move motion S1M-73.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry, but I have not selected that amendment. There will be a vote on the motion as a whole. Before we move to decision time, I call Mr Tom McCabe to move motion S1M-83 and Mr Mike Rumbles to move motion S1M-73.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2140E187P335C706068", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Register of Interests", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26717, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 500.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 500.0, "ID": 26717, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Rumbles, Mike", "ID": 2140, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Rumbles", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Mike Rumbles (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 501.0, "ContributionID": 706068, "EditedText": "The Scotland Act 1998 (Transitory and Transitional Provisions) (Members' Interests) Order 1999 requires the Parliament to determine when and how the \"Register of Interests of Members of the Scottish Parliament\" shall be printed and published. Statements are now due to be made for addition to the register. I move,That the Parliament agrees that on or after 2 July 1999 the register of interests of Members of the Parliament be printed in a loose-leaf folder to be kept at the Office of the Clerk of the Parliament and published on the Parliament's website.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Scotland Act 1998 (Transitory and Transitional Provisions) (Members' Interests) Order 1999 requires the Parliament to determine when and how the \"Register of Interests of Members of the Scottish Parliament\" shall be printed and published. Statements are now due to be made for addition to the register.

I move,

That the Parliament agrees that on or after 2 July 1999 the register of interests of Members of the Parliament be printed in a loose-leaf folder to be kept at the Office of the Clerk of the Parliament and published on the Parliament's website.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706078", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26718, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 503.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 503.0, "ID": 26718, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 518.0, "ContributionID": 706078, "EditedText": "To have regard to the desirability of promoting access to further and higher education, particularly for those groups currently under-represented, while taking account of the need to maintain and to develop quality and standards, and the position of Scottish further and higher education in the wider UK system;", "EditedTextHTML": "To have regard to the desirability of promoting access to further and higher education, particularly for those groups currently under-represented, while taking account of the need to maintain and to develop quality and standards, and the position of Scottish further and higher education in the wider UK system;

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706079", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26718, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 503.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 503.0, "ID": 26718, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 519.0, "ContributionID": 706079, "EditedText": "To make recommendations for any changes to the current system, and provide costed options where these may require additional resources;", "EditedTextHTML": "To make recommendations for any changes to the current system, and provide costed options where these may require additional resources;

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706080", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26718, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 503.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 503.0, "ID": 26718, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 520.0, "ContributionID": 706080, "EditedText": "To present a report of its finding to the Executive by the end of 1999.", "EditedTextHTML": "To present a report of its finding to the Executive by the end of 1999.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706081", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26718, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 503.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 503.0, "ID": 26718, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 521.0, "ContributionID": 706081, "EditedText": "Membership", "EditedTextHTML": "Membership

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706072", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26718, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 503.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 503.0, "ID": 26718, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 511.0, "ContributionID": 706072, "EditedText": "FOR Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)Mackay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)AGAINST Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Mackay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)

AGAINST

Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706073", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26718, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 503.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 503.0, "ID": 26718, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 512.0, "ContributionID": 706073, "EditedText": "The result of the division is as follows: For 70, Against 48, Abstentions 0.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result of the division is as follows: For 70, Against 48, Abstentions 0.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5765667+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706076", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26718, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 503.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 503.0, "ID": 26718, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 516.0, "ContributionID": 706076, "EditedText": "Terms of Reference", "EditedTextHTML": "Terms of Reference

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.6078156+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706083", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26718, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 503.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 503.0, "ID": 26718, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 523.0, "ContributionID": 706083, "EditedText": "The next question is, that motion S1M-83, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "The next question is, that motion S1M-83, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.6078156+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706084", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26718, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 503.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 503.0, "ID": 26718, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 525.0, "ContributionID": 706084, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.6078156+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706085", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26718, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 503.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 503.0, "ID": 26718, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 526.0, "ContributionID": 706085, "EditedText": "That the Parliament approves the addition of Tommy Sheridan to the membership of the Equal Opportunities Committee and the addition of Dennis Canavan to the membership of the European Committee.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament approves the addition of Tommy Sheridan to the membership of the Equal Opportunities Committee and the addition of Dennis Canavan to the membership of the European Committee.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.6078156+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706086", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26718, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 503.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 503.0, "ID": 26718, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 527.0, "ContributionID": 706086, "EditedText": "The next question is, that motion S1M-73, in the name of Mr Mike Rumbles, be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "The next question is, that motion S1M-73, in the name of Mr Mike Rumbles, be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.6078156+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706088", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26718, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 503.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 503.0, "ID": 26718, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 530.0, "ContributionID": 706088, "EditedText": "That the Parliament agrees that on or after 2 July 1999 the register of interests of Members of the Parliament be printed in a loose-leaf folder to be kept at the Office of the Clerk of the Parliament and published on the Parliament's website.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament agrees that on or after 2 July 1999 the register of interests of Members of the Parliament be printed in a loose-leaf folder to be kept at the Office of the Clerk of the Parliament and published on the Parliament's website.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.6078156+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C706093", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26718, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 503.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 503.0, "ID": 26718, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 539.0, "ContributionID": 706093, "EditedText": "Unfortunately, that was how you started. If you come straight to the point, I will deal with it.", "EditedTextHTML": "Unfortunately, that was how you started. If you come straight to the point, I will deal with it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.6078156+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C706096", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26718, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 503.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 503.0, "ID": 26718, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 545.0, "ContributionID": 706096, "EditedText": "On a point of order, yes. Some of us were hoping that Pauline would raise a point of order about the fact that you seem to have discouraged—twice, I think—interventions in our proceedings. Many of us feel that we should encourage more interventions. I know that there are constraints on time, but we have a recess in which the Procedures Committee, members and you might reflect on how we can encourage more interventions in debates, rather than fewer.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order, yes. Some of us were hoping that Pauline would raise a point of order about the fact that you seem to have discouraged—twice, I think—interventions in our proceedings. Many of us feel that we should encourage more interventions. I know that there are constraints on time, but we have a recess in which the Procedures Committee, members and you might reflect on how we can encourage more interventions in debates, rather than fewer.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.6078156+00:00" }, { "ID": "C706098", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fish Processing Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26719, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 549.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 549.0, "ID": 26719, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 550.0, "ContributionID": 706098, "EditedText": "Motion debated,", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion debated,

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.6078156+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C706100", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fish Processing Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26719, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 549.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 549.0, "ID": 26719, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr David Davidson (North-East Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 553.0, "ContributionID": 706100, "EditedText": "May I first of all recognise the privilege it is to have the first—", "EditedTextHTML": "May I first of all recognise the privilege it is to have the first—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.6078156+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C706118", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fish Processing Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26719, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 549.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 549.0, "ID": 26719, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Alex Salmond (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 595.0, "ContributionID": 706118, "EditedText": "On a point of order. Members' business is the one time when a minister is duty-bound to give way to members. Can the minister not take that on board?", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. Members' business is the one time when a minister is duty-bound to give way to members. Can the minister not take that on board?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.6078156+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2117E79P104C706107", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fish Processing Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26719, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 549.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 549.0, "ID": 26719, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macdonald, Lewis", "ID": 2117, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lewis Macdonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Lewis Macdonald (Aberdeen Central) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 569.0, "ContributionID": 706107, "EditedText": "I, too, welcome the opportunity to focus on an industry that is a major provider of jobs in my constituency and elsewhere. The fish-catching sector attracts a good deal of public attention but, in providing jobs onshore, jobs for women and part-time jobs for lone parents who want to work— as well as in maintaining a range of skills in a traditional industry that provides a vital link in the food chain—the fish processing sector demands equal attention and status. When we talk to industry leaders, such as those from Aberdeen who are with us today, we must listen to their concerns about the implementation of the directive. Although I take Mr Robson's point, I think that there is particular concern in the north of Scotland, because of the scale and expense of the proposed plant. The population factor means that fewer people and firms would pay for the plant that we need. That is why so many of the firms in the Aberdeen area face difficulties. It is clear that my colleagues in Aberdeen City Council have been listening to the concerns that have been raised. I would like to congratulate the council and the Aberdeen Fish Curers and Merchants Association on working together on a practical scheme—the first in Scotland—to implement the regulations at a price that the industry can afford. Will the minister confirm that the Aberdeen harbour scheme for trade effluent treatment that was announced last weekend will meet the requirement of the European regulations and so have the support and approval of the Scottish Environment Protection Agency? Will the ministerial team acknowledge that the fish processing industry is not opposed to the environmental standards that we have agreed with our European partners? The industry recognises that those standards must be implemented; indeed, it seeks to meet those standards. Will the minister consider what support can be given to upgrade the industry's premises in order to reduce the cost of trade effluent treatment, whoever provides it? The more effective the industry is in dealing with its own effluent—other industries, such as the meat industry, have the same problem—the less it will be charged, either by the Aberdeen harbour scheme or by NOSWA, to deal with it. It would be too easy to say that if Europe sets the standard it must foot the bill. However, we should consider what resources we can bring to the industry, either from our reserves or from Europe, to allow the fish processing industry to raise the standards of water treatment.", "EditedTextHTML": "I, too, welcome the opportunity to focus on an industry that is a major provider of jobs in my constituency and elsewhere. The fish-catching sector attracts a good deal of public attention but, in providing jobs onshore, jobs for women and part-time jobs for lone parents who want to work— as well as in maintaining a range of skills in a traditional industry that provides a vital link in the food chain—the fish processing sector demands equal attention and status.

When we talk to industry leaders, such as those from Aberdeen who are with us today, we must listen to their concerns about the implementation of the directive. Although I take Mr Robson's point, I think that there is particular concern in the north of Scotland, because of the scale and expense of the proposed plant. The population factor means that fewer people and firms would pay for the plant that we need. That is why so many of the firms in the Aberdeen area face difficulties.

It is clear that my colleagues in Aberdeen City Council have been listening to the concerns that have been raised. I would like to congratulate the council and the Aberdeen Fish Curers and Merchants Association on working together on a practical scheme—the first in Scotland—to implement the regulations at a price that the industry can afford.

Will the minister confirm that the Aberdeen harbour scheme for trade effluent treatment that was announced last weekend will meet the requirement of the European regulations and so have the support and approval of the Scottish Environment Protection Agency? Will the ministerial team acknowledge that the fish processing industry is not opposed to the environmental standards that we have agreed with our European partners?

The industry recognises that those standards must be implemented; indeed, it seeks to meet those standards. Will the minister consider what support can be given to upgrade the industry's premises in order to reduce the cost of trade effluent treatment, whoever provides it? The more effective the industry is in dealing with its own effluent—other industries, such as the meat industry, have the same problem—the less it will be charged, either by the Aberdeen harbour scheme or by NOSWA, to deal with it.

It would be too easy to say that if Europe sets the standard it must foot the bill. However, we

should consider what resources we can bring to the industry, either from our reserves or from Europe, to allow the fish processing industry to raise the standards of water treatment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.6078156+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2117E79P104C706109", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fish Processing Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26719, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 549.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 549.0, "ID": 26719, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macdonald, Lewis", "ID": 2117, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lewis Macdonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Lewis Macdonald: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 573.0, "ContributionID": 706109, "EditedText": "It is too easy to get into a party slanging match and to talk about ministers acting with too much haste, dog-eared proposals and all the rest of it. We should focus on the positive agenda of what this ministerial team and this Parliament can deliver for our industry—that is the key. The timetable is critical and I urge ministers to meet representatives of the industry with the information that is required as soon as possible. Time is important, but getting it right is even more important, and I ask the ministers to arrange matters as soon as it is practical.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is too easy to get into a party slanging match and to talk about ministers acting with too much haste, dog-eared proposals and all the rest of it. We should focus on the positive agenda of what this ministerial team and this Parliament can deliver for our industry—that is the key. The timetable is critical and I urge ministers to meet representatives of the industry with the information that is required as soon as possible. Time is important, but getting it right is even more important, and I ask the ministers to arrange matters as soon as it is practical.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.6078156+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C706120", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fish Processing Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26719, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 549.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 549.0, "ID": 26719, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ms Patricia Ferguson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 599.0, "ContributionID": 706120, "EditedText": "That is not a point of order. If Ms Boyack would like to take an intervention, please indicate that.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is not a point of order. If Ms Boyack would like to take an intervention, please indicate that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.6078156+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2066E64P88C706128", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fish Processing Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26719, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 549.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 549.0, "ID": 26719, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McGrigor, Jamie", "ID": 2066, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie McGrigor", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Jamie McGrigor (Highlands and Islands) (Con) rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 615.0, "ContributionID": 706128, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.6078156+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C706129", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fish Processing Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26719, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 549.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 549.0, "ID": 26719, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Davidson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 617.0, "ContributionID": 706129, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.6078156+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2066E64P88C706135", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fish Processing Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26719, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 549.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 549.0, "ID": 26719, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McGrigor, Jamie", "ID": 2066, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie McGrigor", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McGrigor: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 629.0, "ContributionID": 706135, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.6078156+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2180E179P471C706105", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fish Processing Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26719, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 549.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 549.0, "ID": 26719, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lochhead, Richard", "ID": 2180, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Lochhead", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Richard Lochhead (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 563.0, "ContributionID": 706105, "EditedText": "I congratulate David Davidson on securing the first item of members' business since yesterday's historic events and for choosing jobs in the fish processing industry as the subject. I am also delighted that we are again discussing fishing matters—one of our first debates was also on a fishing matter, which shows the priority that this Parliament has given to the fishing industry. Mr Davidson has eloquently expressed the concerns of the fish processing industry. I do not want to repeat what he has said in detail. I want to put on record the fact that, although the industry agrees with all the aims and objectives of the urban waste water directive, it is concerned that implementation will threaten many jobs in the north-east of Scotland. The industry seeks a lasting and cost-effective solution. I can see no reason why NOSWA would oppose a delay in the implementation of the directive. There is nothing to prevent the minister from negotiating with Brussels for such a delay; it is a question of political will and determination. This is a new Parliament, the minister has a new position and she can decide to stick up for the industry by flying to Brussels to discuss with the relevant EU officials this important matter, which affects the livelihoods of many people in the north-east of Scotland. The industry is asking for a breathing space. Even in the past few weeks there have been developments on this issue. Mr Davidson referred to a number of them. Labour-controlled Aberdeen City Council decided to proceed with its widely supported plans for the industry in that city. Today, Aberdeenshire Council is also discussing proposals to help the industry. The area's political representatives are doing what they can to support the industry's demands and industry leaders, some of whom we have with us today, are doing what they can for the employees. It would be a great pity if Sarah Boyack did not do what she could to help. The key to arriving at an agreeable solution is in the minister's hands. If the minister does not decide today to bring a fresh approach from the Government, there could be job losses throughout the north-east of Scotland. NOSWA's bills could rise even higher. The north-east already pays the highest water bills in the country, but if the private finance initiative projects go ahead, the people of the north-east will pay money that is simply profit for the shareholders of those companies, such as Yorkshire Water, that are proposing to fund the projects. The people of the north-east will not accept that. If the minister takes no action, she will be getting off to a very poor start. I make four requests of the minister. First, when she winds up the debate, I ask her not to use the dog-eared brief that was used by her predecessor in Westminster. We want to see a fresh approach. Secondly, I ask the minister to show determination and political willingness to negotiate with the EU representatives in Brussels at the earliest opportunity. Thirdly, I ask her to instruct NOSWA not to sign any more contracts in connection with the PFI projects until the matter is resolved in favour of the food processing and fish processing industries in the north-east. Finally, I ask her to use the opportunity of her visit to Aberdeen, where she will be next week on another matter, to meet representatives from NOSWA, the local authorities and the industry to discuss how the Government can help the industry to overcome the impending crisis. I ask the minister to make a positive response to Mr Davidson's motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "I congratulate David Davidson on securing the first item of members' business since yesterday's historic events and for choosing jobs in the fish processing industry as the subject. I am also delighted that we are again discussing fishing matters—one of our first debates was also on a fishing matter, which shows the priority that this Parliament has given to the fishing industry.

Mr Davidson has eloquently expressed the concerns of the fish processing industry. I do not want to repeat what he has said in detail. I want to put on record the fact that, although the industry agrees with all the aims and objectives of the urban waste water directive, it is concerned that implementation will threaten many jobs in the north-east of Scotland.

The industry seeks a lasting and cost-effective solution. I can see no reason why NOSWA would oppose a delay in the implementation of the directive. There is nothing to prevent the minister from negotiating with Brussels for such a delay; it is a question of political will and determination. This is a new Parliament, the minister has a new position and she can decide to stick up for the industry by flying to Brussels to discuss with the relevant EU officials this important matter, which affects the livelihoods of many people in the north-east of Scotland.

The industry is asking for a breathing space. Even in the past few weeks there have been developments on this issue. Mr Davidson referred to a number of them. Labour-controlled Aberdeen City Council decided to proceed with its widely supported plans for the industry in that city. Today, Aberdeenshire Council is also discussing proposals to help the industry. The area's political representatives are doing what they can to support the industry's demands and industry leaders, some of whom we have with us today, are doing what they can for the employees.

It would be a great pity if Sarah Boyack did not do what she could to help. The key to arriving at an agreeable solution is in the minister's hands. If the minister does not decide today to bring a fresh approach from the Government, there could be job losses throughout the north-east of Scotland. NOSWA's bills could rise even higher. The north-east already pays the highest water bills in the country, but if the private finance initiative projects go ahead, the people of the north-east will pay money that is simply profit for the shareholders of those companies, such as Yorkshire Water, that are proposing to fund the projects. The people of the north-east will not accept that. If the minister takes no action, she will be getting off to a very poor start.

I make four requests of the minister. First, when she winds up the debate, I ask her not to use the dog-eared brief that was used by her predecessor in Westminster. We want to see a fresh approach. Secondly, I ask the minister to show determination and political willingness to negotiate with the EU representatives in Brussels at the earliest opportunity. Thirdly, I ask her to instruct NOSWA

not to sign any more contracts in connection with the PFI projects until the matter is resolved in favour of the food processing and fish processing industries in the north-east. Finally, I ask her to use the opportunity of her visit to Aberdeen, where she will be next week on another matter, to meet representatives from NOSWA, the local authorities and the industry to discuss how the Government can help the industry to overcome the impending crisis. I ask the minister to make a positive response to Mr Davidson's motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:12.769626+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2180E179P471C706122", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fish Processing Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26719, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 549.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 549.0, "ID": 26719, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lochhead, Richard", "ID": 2180, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Lochhead", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Richard Lochhead: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 603.0, "ContributionID": 706122, "EditedText": "I thank the minister for allowing me to intervene. The industry is looking for more than sympathy from the new Administration. Does the Administration not have faith in its own ability to do a better job than the previous Administration on negotiating derogation in Europe?", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the minister for allowing me to intervene. The industry is looking for more than sympathy from the new Administration. Does the Administration not have faith in its own ability to do a better job than the previous Administration on negotiating derogation in Europe?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:12.769626+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2180E179P471C706114", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fish Processing Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26719, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 549.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 549.0, "ID": 26719, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lochhead, Richard", "ID": 2180, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Lochhead", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Richard Lochhead: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 587.0, "ContributionID": 706114, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:12.769626+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C706115", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fish Processing Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26719, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 549.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 549.0, "ID": 26719, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 589.0, "ContributionID": 706115, "EditedText": "No, I will not take an interruption. If we were taken to infraction by the European Commission, the money would be taken from the Scottish block. There are already two examples where countries are being taken to the European Court of Justice on the issue of dealing with waste water treatment—Italy and Belgium are both being taken to court—so there is an imperative to implement the directive on time. I am sure that members who have talked to the food processing industry will know of the lengthy history of this issue. Some firms have begun to address it and NOSWA has attempted to encourage the fish industry to prepare in advance. There has been an extensive information programme, advice packs, consultation documents and there have been hundreds of meetings. NOSWA is sympathetic to the position of the fish processors and has for some time been advising industrial dischargers to attempt to reduce their future charge increases by investing in cleaner technology or minimising the use of water. I understand that some firms have been able to do that. NOSWA has also agreed to phase in the increased charges over a number of years.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I will not take an interruption.

If we were taken to infraction by the European Commission, the money would be taken from the Scottish block. There are already two examples where countries are being taken to the European Court of Justice on the issue of dealing with waste water treatment—Italy and Belgium are both being taken to court—so there is an imperative to implement the directive on time.

I am sure that members who have talked to the food processing industry will know of the lengthy history of this issue. Some firms have begun to address it and NOSWA has attempted to encourage the fish industry to prepare in advance. There has been an extensive information programme, advice packs, consultation documents and there have been hundreds of meetings. NOSWA is sympathetic to the position of the fish processors and has for some time been advising industrial dischargers to attempt to reduce their future charge increases by investing in cleaner technology or minimising the use of water. I understand that some firms have been able to do that. NOSWA has also agreed to phase in the increased charges over a number of years.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:05.8270026+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C706123", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fish Processing Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26719, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 549.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 549.0, "ID": 26719, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 605.0, "ContributionID": 706123, "EditedText": "That is a flattering point but that is not the situation. We have attempted to address this issue through the route suggested by Mr Lochhead and we have not been successful. I will now talk about the solutions that are available. The difficulty of this debate is that we do not have a long window of opportunity. There has been a lot of joint work among NOSWA, local councils, enterprise companies, trade associations and others to try to address the issues of waste minimisation and to offer advice on best practice. NOSWA has contributed £25,000 to a waste minimisation programme for fish processors, and it continues to offer them advice. Some fish processors have been able to reduce the charges that they will face, but I accept that for many of the smaller ones it has been extremely difficult to do so. I appreciate the anxiety that the increases in the estimated charges has caused to fish processors, and I am concerned about their potential impact on the fish processing sector as a whole. A number of suggestions have been made on practical ways of taking the debate forward. One suggestion was the development of a separate plant specifically to treat trade effluent. understand from NOSWA that Mr Davidson's point about its having developed a giant scheme under PFI is inaccurate. The scheme has been developed to deal with the situation in Aberdeen. Storm water, and not just trade effluent, is the key issue in determining the capacity of the plant.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is a flattering point but that is not the situation. We have attempted to address this issue through the route suggested by Mr Lochhead and we have not been successful.

I will now talk about the solutions that are available. The difficulty of this debate is that we do not have a long window of opportunity. There has been a lot of joint work among NOSWA, local councils, enterprise companies, trade associations and others to try to address the issues of waste minimisation and to offer advice on best practice. NOSWA has contributed £25,000 to a waste minimisation programme for fish processors, and it continues to offer them advice.

Some fish processors have been able to reduce the charges that they will face, but I accept that for many of the smaller ones it has been extremely difficult to do so. I appreciate the anxiety that the increases in the estimated charges has caused to fish processors, and I am concerned about their potential impact on the fish processing sector as a whole.

A number of suggestions have been made on practical ways of taking the debate forward. One suggestion was the development of a separate plant specifically to treat trade effluent. understand from NOSWA that Mr Davidson's point about its having developed a giant scheme under PFI is inaccurate. The scheme has been developed to deal with the situation in Aberdeen. Storm water, and not just trade effluent, is the key

issue in determining the capacity of the plant.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:05.8270026+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C706125", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fish Processing Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26719, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 549.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 549.0, "ID": 26719, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 609.0, "ContributionID": 706125, "EditedText": "No, I will not.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I will not.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:05.8270026+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C706134", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Fish Processing Industry", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26719, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 549.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 549.0, "ID": 26719, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 627.0, "ContributionID": 706134, "EditedText": "I hope that it is in order for members to prepare their thoughts in advance of coming into the chamber and to amend them while speaking, as I am doing. Mr Davidson's motion asks us to delay dealing with the urban waste water treatment directive. That option is not available to us: we have to address the directive. It was enacted in 1991, so there is a long history to this debate. We have to get our treatment schemes in place by the end of 2000. I am keen to have discussions with the fish processing industry. There is going to be a consultation paper on the new criteria for giving financial aid, which will be put in place from next year. We can examine and discuss a number of issues. However, delaying is out of the question. We need to work out effective solutions.", "EditedTextHTML": "I hope that it is in order for members to prepare their thoughts in advance of coming into the chamber and to amend them while speaking, as I am doing.

Mr Davidson's motion asks us to delay dealing with the urban waste water treatment directive. That option is not available to us: we have to address the directive. It was enacted in 1991, so there is a long history to this debate. We have to get our treatment schemes in place by the end of 2000. I am keen to have discussions with the fish processing industry. There is going to be a consultation paper on the new criteria for giving financial aid, which will be put in place from next year. We can examine and discuss a number of issues. However, delaying is out of the question. We need to work out effective solutions.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:05.8270026+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1773E197P503C705982", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hyslop, Fiona", "ID": 1773, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona Hyslop", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona Hyslop: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 312.0, "ContributionID": 705982, "EditedText": "We heard about a review of capital finance; will the minister consider the clawback rules on housing and the general services capital programme? Will the capital finance review include a review of those matters?", "EditedTextHTML": "We heard about a review of capital finance; will the minister consider the clawback rules on housing and the general services capital programme? Will the capital finance review include a review of those matters?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:00:05.3389306+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2110E214P424C706000", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gibson, Kenneth", "ID": 2110, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenneth Gibson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Gibson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 353.0, "ContributionID": 706000, "EditedText": "Silence speaks louder than words.", "EditedTextHTML": "Silence speaks louder than words.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:00:40.118999+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1857E136P222C706052", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Student Finance (Committee of Inquiry) ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26716, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 432.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 432.0, "ID": 26716, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeill, Pauline", "ID": 1857, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Kelvin" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Pauline McNeill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Pauline McNeill: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 468.0, "ContributionID": 706052, "EditedText": "I think that it is. I am sorry that you would not allow my intervention.", "EditedTextHTML": "I think that it is. I am sorry that you would not allow my intervention.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:01:27.8453423+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2110E214P424C705988", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gibson, Kenneth", "ID": 2110, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenneth Gibson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Gibson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 325.0, "ContributionID": 705988, "EditedText": "Will Mr McNulty give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr McNulty give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:00:18.757086+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1857E136P222C706090", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26718, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 503.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 503.0, "ID": 26718, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeill, Pauline", "ID": 1857, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Kelvin" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Pauline McNeill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Pauline McNeill (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 533.0, "ContributionID": 706090, "EditedText": "Well, I—", "EditedTextHTML": "Well, I—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:02:32.7857179+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C705855", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26692, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26693, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 6.0, "QuestionHeading": "University Staff", "QuestionHeadingID": 26697, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 32.0, "DisplayOrder": 32.0, "ID": 26697, "ParentID": 26693 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "4. Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 33.0, "ContributionID": 705855, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will make a statement on its attitude to the establishment of an independent pay review for university academic and related staff. (S1O-187)", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will make a statement on its attitude to the establishment of an independent pay review for university academic and related staff. (S1O-187)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:32:49.6287351+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2110E214P424C705955", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gibson, Kenneth", "ID": 2110, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenneth Gibson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Kenneth Gibson (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 252.0, "ContributionID": 705955, "EditedText": "I thank the minister for the positive nature of much of her speech. SNP members will agree with a lot of what she said, but I have a number of questions for her and I hope that members will bear with me. First, I am concerned about the minister's apparent refusal to sanction an independent inquiry into local government finances, which the McIntosh commission strongly recommended. Only three days ago, COSLA reiterated a view that was expressed in its manifesto, \"A Local Government Contract for Scotland\". That document said: \"Too much financial dependency on central government confuses accountability and contains too many central controls both over funding and spending\". Will the minister explain her rationale in ignoring the overwhelming view of all those who represent local government at the coal face, including the four political parties that are represented on COSLA, the independent group of councillors and the Society of Local Authority Chief Executives? Secondly, given that the minister has signalled the Executive's intention to proceed with the McIntosh commission's recommendation on PR— we welcome the establishment of the task force— will she give an assurance that the working party will report in time to fulfil the McIntosh commission's recommendation, on page 25 of its report, that PR should \"take effect in time to govern the next council elections in 2002\"? Thirdly, does the minister agree that the logical position of cabinet or accountable executive local government is that that structure should be extended to cover the work of COSLA? Does she agree that COSLA should review its own structures in the light of the McIntosh report's recommendations specifically in relation to the operation of party groups and whips within COSLA's decision-making structure? Finally, we welcome the minister's commitment that the Executive will accept the overwhelming majority of the recommendations. Will she clarify whether it is the Executive's intention to implement the recommendations that it accepts prior to the next local government elections?", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the minister for the positive nature of much of her speech. SNP members will agree with a lot of what she said, but I have a number of questions for her and I hope that members will bear with me.

First, I am concerned about the minister's apparent refusal to sanction an independent inquiry into local government finances, which the McIntosh commission strongly recommended. Only three days ago, COSLA reiterated a view that was expressed in its manifesto, \"A Local Government Contract for Scotland\". That document said:

\"Too much financial dependency on central government confuses accountability and contains too many central controls both over funding and spending\".

Will the minister explain her rationale in ignoring the overwhelming view of all those who represent local government at the coal face, including the four political parties that are represented on COSLA, the independent group of councillors and the Society of Local Authority Chief Executives?

Secondly, given that the minister has signalled the Executive's intention to proceed with the McIntosh commission's recommendation on PR— we welcome the establishment of the task force— will she give an assurance that the working party will report in time to fulfil the McIntosh commission's recommendation, on page 25 of its report, that PR should

\"take effect in time to govern the next council elections in 2002\"?

Thirdly, does the minister agree that the logical position of cabinet or accountable executive local government is that that structure should be extended to cover the work of COSLA? Does she agree that COSLA should review its own structures in the light of the McIntosh report's recommendations specifically in relation to the operation of party groups and whips within COSLA's decision-making structure?

Finally, we welcome the minister's commitment that the Executive will accept the overwhelming majority of the recommendations. Will she clarify whether it is the Executive's intention to implement the recommendations that it accepts prior to the next local government elections?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:34:40.9579878+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2110E214P424C705957", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gibson, Kenneth", "ID": 2110, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenneth Gibson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Gibson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 256.0, "ContributionID": 705957, "EditedText": "Do not worry; I do not think that anyone could have memorised it. We welcome the minister's commitment that the Executive will accept the overwhelming majority of the recommendations. Will she clarify whether the Executive intends to implement those recommendations prior to the next local government elections?", "EditedTextHTML": "Do not worry; I do not think that anyone could have memorised it.

We welcome the minister's commitment that the Executive will accept the overwhelming majority of the recommendations. Will she clarify whether the Executive intends to implement those recommendations prior to the next local government elections?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:34:40.9579878+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2110E214P424C705960", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jul 1999", "ID": 4172 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-07-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Local Government", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26715, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 210.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 210.0, "ID": 26715, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gibson, Kenneth", "ID": 2110, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenneth Gibson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Kenneth Gibson (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 263.0, "ContributionID": 705960, "EditedText": "It is with enormous personal pride, satisfaction and pleasure that I reply to the minister's statement on the report of the McIntosh commission—enormous pride because this is the first debate of our new Parliament under its full powers and the first debate after the magnificent splendour of yesterday's ceremony and the huge positive wave that we felt from the Scottish people. It gives me satisfaction because the first debate is on local government. I trust that signifies local government is now being welcomed in from the political cold to become a full partner in the good governance of Scotland. It gives me pleasure because I believe in the spirit of our vesting day. Local government is an area in which we can genuinely make a difference through genuine consensus. That is not to say that there is no argument in this chamber about what the minister has announced. Those who heard my questions will have no doubt about where some of the disagreements lie. Where there is agreement, however, it is genuine and heartfelt, and where we can go forward together, we will. I assure the Deputy Minister for Local Government that, although he and I may have spent the past two years lobbing verbal hand grenades at each other across the floor of Glasgow City Chambers, those days are now behind us.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is with enormous personal pride, satisfaction and pleasure that I reply to the minister's statement on the report of the McIntosh commission—enormous pride because this is the first debate of our new Parliament under its full powers and the first debate after the magnificent splendour of yesterday's ceremony and the huge positive wave that we felt from the Scottish people.

It gives me satisfaction because the first debate is on local government. I trust that signifies local government is now being welcomed in from the political cold to become a full partner in the good governance of Scotland.

It gives me pleasure because I believe in the spirit of our vesting day. Local government is an area in which we can genuinely make a difference through genuine consensus. That is not to say that there is no argument in this chamber about what the minister has announced. Those who heard my questions will have no doubt about where some of the disagreements lie. Where there is agreement, however, it is genuine and heartfelt, and where we can go forward together, we will.

I assure the Deputy Minister for Local Government that, although he and I may have spent the past two years lobbing verbal hand grenades at each other across the floor of Glasgow City Chambers, those days are now behind us.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:34:40.9579878+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C705381", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 49.0, "ContributionID": 705381, "EditedText": "No, I am winding up.I hope that in the interests of the new politics, Mr McConnell will agree to consider these proposals. He will find that they are infinitely more sensible and acceptable than his own. In conclusion, I call on this Parliament to take an honest decision. No doubt the Labour and Liberal Democrat ministers will line up behind the Tories to support the private finance initiative, but I tell members on the Liberal Democrat back benches to honour their manifesto commitment—to do so for the first time. I tell members on the Labour back benches who know that PFI is wrong to prove a certain—absent—minister wrong and prove that, when it is right to do so, they and this Parliament are not afraid to depart from the London line. I move,That the Parliament condemns the privatisation of health, education, transport and other public services through the Private Finance Initiative (PFI) and Public-Private Partnership (PPP) schemes; notes the mounting body of evidence that PFI and PPP, introduced by the Conservative Government and continued by the Labour Government, are an inefficient and expensive method of funding vital public services which also undermine the pay and conditions of public service staff; calls upon the Scottish Ministers to disclose the annual expenditure commitments associated with each public project involving private finance, and the rate of return that private partners receive for the capital that they commit; urges the Scottish Ministers to examine alternatives to such private financing, and calls on the Scottish Ministers to bring forward proposals to introduce Scottish Public Service Trusts.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I am winding up.

I hope that in the interests of the new politics, Mr McConnell will agree to consider these proposals. He will find that they are infinitely more sensible and acceptable than his own.

In conclusion, I call on this Parliament to take an honest decision. No doubt the Labour and Liberal Democrat ministers will line up behind the Tories to support the private finance initiative, but I tell members on the Liberal Democrat back benches to honour their manifesto commitment—to do so for the first time. I tell members on the Labour back benches who know that PFI is wrong to prove a certain—absent—minister wrong and prove that, when it is right to do so, they and this Parliament are not afraid to depart from the London line.

I move,

That the Parliament condemns the privatisation of health, education, transport and other public services through the Private Finance Initiative (PFI) and Public-Private Partnership (PPP) schemes; notes the mounting body of evidence that PFI and PPP, introduced by the Conservative Government and continued by the Labour Government, are an inefficient and expensive method of funding vital public

services which also undermine the pay and conditions of public service staff; calls upon the Scottish Ministers to disclose the annual expenditure commitments associated with each public project involving private finance, and the rate of return that private partners receive for the capital that they commit; urges the Scottish Ministers to examine alternatives to such private financing, and calls on the Scottish Ministers to bring forward proposals to introduce Scottish Public Service Trusts.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:00:50.3207435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C705388", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 64.0, "ContributionID": 705388, "EditedText": "The minister said that the £400 million of private finance for schools is in addition to the £600 million that the partnership agreement refers to. That conflicts with the answer to a parliamentary question that I have been given, which says that the £400 million is included in the £600 million, as an addition to the £185 million that is mentioned in the comprehensive spending review document. Would he care to clarify the situation?", "EditedTextHTML": "The minister said that the £400 million of private finance for schools is in addition to the £600 million that the partnership agreement refers to. That conflicts with the answer to a parliamentary question that I have been given, which says that the £400 million is included in the £600 million, as an addition to the £185 million that is mentioned in the comprehensive spending review document. Would he care to clarify the situation?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:00:50.3207435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C705601", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 510.0, "ContributionID": 705601, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:00:50.3207435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2180E179P471C705638", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26661, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 531.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26662, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 534.0, "QuestionHeading": "Fishing (Safety)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26670, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 592.0, "DisplayOrder": 592.0, "ID": 26670, "ParentID": 26662 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lochhead, Richard", "ID": 2180, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Lochhead", "SpeakerDisplayName": "8. Richard Lochhead (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 593.0, "ContributionID": 705638, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it has plans to introduce a distinct scheme to promote safety improvements in the Scottish fleet in view of the termination of the Fishing Vessel (Safety Improvements) (Grants) Scheme 1995 (S.I.1995/1609), and given the special circumstances of the Scottish fishing industry. (S1O-66) The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs (Mr John Home Robertson): We recognise the critical importance of safety issues for the Scottish fishing fleet. Revised European legislation under the financial instrument for fisheries guidance, which is under discussion, will include consultation with industry. We will examine the case for a separate Scottish scheme in the light of developments in the UK and of new European legislation.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it has plans to introduce a distinct scheme to promote safety improvements in the Scottish fleet in view of the termination of the Fishing Vessel (Safety Improvements) (Grants) Scheme 1995 (S.I.1995/1609), and given the special circumstances of the Scottish fishing industry. (S1O-66) The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs (Mr John Home Robertson): We recognise the critical importance of safety issues for the Scottish fishing fleet. Revised European legislation under the financial instrument for fisheries guidance, which is under discussion, will include consultation with industry. We will examine the case for a separate Scottish scheme in the light of developments in the UK and of new European legislation.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:55.929179+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1773E197P503C705633", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26661, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 531.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26662, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 534.0, "QuestionHeading": "Housing (People with Disabilities)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26669, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 581.0, "DisplayOrder": 581.0, "ID": 26669, "ParentID": 26662 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hyslop, Fiona", "ID": 1773, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona Hyslop", "SpeakerDisplayName": "7. Fiona Hyslop (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 582.0, "ContributionID": 705633, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what action it intends to take to assist people with disabilities living in existing public sector housing. (S1O-78) The Deputy Minister for Social Inclusion, Equality and the Voluntary Sector (Jackie Baillie): To help meet the needs of people with disabilities, we will encourage the development of local housing strategies that give priority to the provision of suitable housing adaptations. Views on how best that can be done have been sought in the housing green paper.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what action it intends to take to assist people with disabilities living in existing public sector housing. (S1O-78) The Deputy Minister for Social Inclusion, Equality and the Voluntary Sector (Jackie Baillie): To help meet the needs of people with disabilities, we will encourage the development of local housing strategies that give priority to the provision of suitable housing adaptations. Views on how best that can be done have been sought in the housing green paper.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:01:31.7066757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1773E197P503C705634", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26661, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 531.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26662, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 534.0, "QuestionHeading": "Housing (People with Disabilities)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26669, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 581.0, "DisplayOrder": 581.0, "ID": 26669, "ParentID": 26662 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hyslop, Fiona", "ID": 1773, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona Hyslop", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona Hyslop: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 584.0, "ContributionID": 705634, "EditedText": "I have a particular interest in people with learning disabilities. As the minister will know, this is Learning Disability Week. Does she agree that we have a problem in that many people with learning disabilities, living in supported accommodation, are subject to weak housing agreements? Does she further agree that we need to change that so that the small minority of people with learning disabilities enjoy the same tenancy rights as the majority of tenants in Scotland?", "EditedTextHTML": "I have a particular interest in people with learning disabilities. As the minister will know, this is Learning Disability Week. Does she agree that we have a problem in that many

people with learning disabilities, living in supported accommodation, are subject to weak housing agreements? Does she further agree that we need to change that so that the small minority of people with learning disabilities enjoy the same tenancy rights as the majority of tenants in Scotland?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:01:31.7066757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1756E184P464C705551", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Grahame, Christine", "ID": 1756, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Christine Grahame", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 407.0, "ContributionID": 705551, "EditedText": "It is difficult to bring anything fresh to this stage of a debate, so I am speaking on behalf of my left foot, which has had immediate contact with the Edinburgh royal infirmary. I have been privileged not only to assess disability access in this building, which is very poor, but to gather information at first hand about the need for a new royal infirmary. I was wheeled into accident and emergency only a month ago with my throbbing foot raised in front of me. I was parked next to a youthful tae kwon do enthusiast—in parallel pose—while we waited an interminable time, as in a Monty Python sketch, to be taken for examination. Much, much later that night, I progressed—or so I thought—to a cubicle and was left, shrouded in a green curtain, in solitary confinement. Time passed slowly and I was wondering whether I had been forgotten about when a cheery male nurse did the necessary and went off to hunt for what he called \"a decent crutch\". He did not find one. While he fondled my foot in the line of duty, we had a deep discourse about the level of nursing pay. It was a useful discussion, and I thoroughly sympathise with nurses over their remuneration. I hope that we can do something about it. Subsequent visits to the fracture unit have continued my health service education. Access to the fracture unit, for one who is hirpling around the city, offers a challenge of gladiatorial proportions. Transport can get no further than a portcullis entrance. My left foot and I, and the not-so-decent crutches, had a 30 yd trek to the main entrance. That was stage 1. After a prolonged and enforced break at reception—people should take their own entertainment and provisions as the 2 pm appointment should have read 3 pm; I took a stereo, a magazine and a banana—I progressed to stage 2. I was then shown a lengthy corridor where I was lead to believe that I would find, like Jabba the Hutt, the residence of the consultant. He appeared after a considerable length of time from the only door I was not watching. In the meantime, I had the privilege of reading my own medical notes, as many of us do.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is difficult to bring anything fresh to this stage of a debate, so I am speaking on behalf of my left foot, which has had immediate contact with the Edinburgh royal infirmary. I have been privileged not only to assess disability access in this building, which is very poor, but to gather information at first hand about the need for a new royal infirmary.

I was wheeled into accident and emergency only a month ago with my throbbing foot raised in front of me. I was parked next to a youthful tae kwon do enthusiast—in parallel pose—while we waited an interminable time, as in a Monty Python sketch, to be taken for examination. Much, much later that night, I progressed—or so I thought—to a cubicle and was left, shrouded in a green curtain, in solitary confinement. Time passed slowly and I was wondering whether I had been forgotten about when a cheery male nurse did the necessary and went off to hunt for what he called \"a decent crutch\". He did not find one. While he fondled my foot in the line of duty, we had a deep discourse about the level of nursing pay. It was a useful discussion, and I thoroughly sympathise with nurses over their remuneration. I hope that we can do something about it.

Subsequent visits to the fracture unit have continued my health service education. Access to the fracture unit, for one who is hirpling around the city, offers a challenge of gladiatorial proportions. Transport can get no further than a portcullis entrance. My left foot and I, and the not-so-decent crutches, had a 30 yd trek to the main entrance. That was stage 1. After a prolonged and enforced break at reception—people should take their own entertainment and provisions as the 2 pm appointment should have read 3 pm; I took a stereo, a magazine and a banana—I progressed to stage 2. I was then shown a lengthy corridor where I was lead to believe that I would find, like Jabba the Hutt, the residence of the consultant. He appeared after a considerable length of time from the only door I was not watching. In the meantime, I had the privilege of reading my own medical notes, as many of us do.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:01:23.8313068+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1773E197P503C705559", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hyslop, Fiona", "ID": 1773, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona Hyslop", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona Hyslop rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 424.0, "ContributionID": 705559, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:01:23.8313068+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1773E197P503C705563", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hyslop, Fiona", "ID": 1773, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona Hyslop", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona Hyslop: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 432.0, "ContributionID": 705563, "EditedText": "Will Mr Tosh give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr Tosh give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:01:23.8313068+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C705359", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Thursday 24 June 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26658, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26658, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 3.0, "ContributionID": 705359, "EditedText": "Before we begin this morning's business, I will complete my response to yesterday's point of order from Shona Robison, who asked about an emergency question that I had declined. I passed the question, as a written question, with a request for an urgent answer. I understand that an answer was received yesterday. Is that correct?", "EditedTextHTML": "Before we begin this morning's business, I will complete my response to yesterday's point of order from Shona Robison, who asked about an emergency question that I had declined. I passed the question, as a written question, with a request for an urgent answer. I understand that an answer was received yesterday. Is that correct?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4828182+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C705371", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bruce Crawford (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 29.0, "ContributionID": 705371, "EditedText": "May I interject?", "EditedTextHTML": "May I interject?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4828182+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C705378", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Richard Simpson (Ochil) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 43.0, "ContributionID": 705378, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4828182+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C705380", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 47.0, "ContributionID": 705380, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4828182+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C705382", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 51.0, "ContributionID": 705382, "EditedText": "The Executive has lodged an amendment, which appears on the supplementary business bulletin. I call Jack McConnell to move amendment S1M-67.1.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Executive has lodged an amendment, which appears on the supplementary business bulletin. I call Jack McConnell to move amendment S1M-67.1.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4828182+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C705385", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 58.0, "ContributionID": 705385, "EditedText": "If Brian Adam will bear with me, he will hear something about flexibility. In every case, we decide the length and nature of contracts, so we decide the degree of flexibility. We do so for the public good in every case, and are proud of that. Nicola has demonstrated today why the nationalists lost the election. This debate will demonstrate either that they do not understand public finances or that they are using vital public services as a political football. Their plans for a public service trust would not work. Not only would they prevent any new hospitals or schools being built under the PFI, but they would threaten those projects that we have already launched and throw the PFI programme into chaos and confusion. Work on the eight new hospitals that are being built—the largest hospital building programme that Scotland has ever seen—would grind to a halt. The PFI project to build new schools and modernise older ones would stop as well. The SNP claims that it could borrow at very competitive rates that are significantly below those that are available for PFI schemes. However, the only way to reduce the rates is by the Government guaranteeing the loans and, if that happened, the sum would be counted as public sector debt and the programme would be cut.", "EditedTextHTML": "If Brian Adam will bear with me, he will hear something about flexibility. In every case, we decide the length and nature of contracts, so we decide the degree of flexibility. We do so for the public good in every case, and are proud of that.

Nicola has demonstrated today why the nationalists lost the election. This debate will demonstrate either that they do not understand public finances or that they are using vital public services as a political football. Their plans for a public service trust would not work. Not only would they prevent any new hospitals or schools being built under the PFI, but they would threaten those projects that we have already launched and throw the PFI programme into chaos and confusion. Work on the eight new hospitals that are being built—the largest hospital building programme that Scotland has ever seen—would grind to a halt. The PFI project to build new schools and modernise older ones would stop as well.

The SNP claims that it could borrow at very competitive rates that are significantly below those that are available for PFI schemes. However, the only way to reduce the rates is by the Government guaranteeing the loans and, if that happened, the sum would be counted as public sector debt and the programme would be cut.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C705387", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 62.0, "ContributionID": 705387, "EditedText": "I do not have to check my civil service brief; I can answer with an example from my constituency. The new hospital in Wishaw— which I hope will be called the Wishaw general hospital rather than the new Law hospital—will be funded by bonds. Bonds are in use in several of our public-private partnerships. The form of PFI projects has changed from the dogma of the Tory years. Labour has cut through the red tape, made the process more accountable and acted to ensure protection for staff. The choice that we face today is between better public services, schools and hospitals and the Opposition's half-baked and unworkable plans. Our highest priority is to achieve an education system with a world-class reputation. To do that, we will need world-class school buildings and information technology, which public-private partnerships will deliver. Following the recent initiatives of Falkirk Council and Glasgow City Council, seven councils are embarking on projects. In total, those initiatives will have a capital value of £400 million, a figure which is in addition to the investment of £600 million that the partnership agreement mentions. Investment in education is threatened by the SNP's proposals. We want to have the most modern health service in Europe. That cannot be achieved in hospitals that were built in the last century. We are committed to the biggest hospital building programme in Scotland's history and to a modern approach to the delivery of public services.", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not have to check my civil service brief; I can answer with an example from my constituency. The new hospital in Wishaw— which I hope will be called the Wishaw general hospital rather than the new Law hospital—will be funded by bonds. Bonds are in use in several of our public-private partnerships.

The form of PFI projects has changed from the dogma of the Tory years. Labour has cut through the red tape, made the process more accountable and acted to ensure protection for staff. The choice that we face today is between better public

services, schools and hospitals and the Opposition's half-baked and unworkable plans.

Our highest priority is to achieve an education system with a world-class reputation. To do that, we will need world-class school buildings and information technology, which public-private partnerships will deliver. Following the recent initiatives of Falkirk Council and Glasgow City Council, seven councils are embarking on projects. In total, those initiatives will have a capital value of £400 million, a figure which is in addition to the investment of £600 million that the partnership agreement mentions. Investment in education is threatened by the SNP's proposals.

We want to have the most modern health service in Europe. That cannot be achieved in hospitals that were built in the last century. We are committed to the biggest hospital building programme in Scotland's history and to a modern approach to the delivery of public services.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C705392", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 72.0, "ContributionID": 705392, "EditedText": "Yes or no?", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes or no?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C705393", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 74.0, "ContributionID": 705393, "EditedText": "Tommy might not want to praise the unions for that role, but I would. I can outline a step which will benefit some public sector staff. The Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations—the so- called TUPE regulations—protect many public sector conditions that employees have when they transfer to the private sector. However, the regulations do not extend to pensions. The public sector negotiates with the private sector to ensure that staff have broadly comparable pension arrangements. Last week, we announced a further step to extend that protection to transfers made under subsequent contracting rounds and, in cases of subcontracting, where that is an integral part of the primary contract. That change will apply to Government departments and their agencies where the Government is the employer and to contracting agencies. I expect it to be followed by the rest of the public sector in Scotland, including local authorities, and I will write this week to all those responsible to advise them of the change.", "EditedTextHTML": "Tommy might not want to praise the unions for that role, but I would.

I can outline a step which will benefit some public sector staff. The Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations—the so- called TUPE regulations—protect many public sector conditions that employees have when they transfer to the private sector. However, the regulations do not extend to pensions. The public sector negotiates with the private sector to ensure that staff have broadly comparable pension arrangements. Last week, we announced a further step to extend that protection to transfers made under subsequent contracting rounds and, in cases of subcontracting, where that is an integral part of the primary contract. That change will apply to Government departments and their agencies where the Government is the employer and to contracting agencies. I expect it to be followed by the rest of the public sector in Scotland, including local authorities, and I will write this week to all those responsible to advise them of the change.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C705398", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 84.0, "ContributionID": 705398, "EditedText": "To whom will you give way, Mr McConnell?", "EditedTextHTML": "To whom will you give way, Mr McConnell?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C705399", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 86.0, "ContributionID": 705399, "EditedText": "I will give way to Mr Wilson, because Ms MacDonald is getting a bit greedy.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will give way to Mr Wilson, because Ms MacDonald is getting a bit greedy.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C705400", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 88.0, "ContributionID": 705400, "EditedText": "Will that policy apply to assets that have alternative uses? If it does not, there will be no loss to the private sector and significant cost to the public sector. If it does not apply across the board, why not?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will that policy apply to assets that have alternative uses? If it does not, there will be no loss to the private sector and significant cost to the public sector. If it does not apply across the board, why not?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C705403", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 95.0, "ContributionID": 705403, "EditedText": "Will Mr Harding take an intervention?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr Harding take an intervention?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C705405", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 99.0, "ContributionID": 705405, "EditedText": "Will Mr Harding confirm that, in the late 1980s, I moved a motion to set up a covenant to finance the redevelopment of the swimming pool and leisure centre in Stirling and that he voted against it?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr Harding confirm that, in the late 1980s, I moved a motion to set up a covenant to finance the redevelopment of the swimming pool and leisure centre in Stirling and that he voted against it?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1811E172P455C705407", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ullrich, Kay", "ID": 1811, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kay Ullrich", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Kay Ullrich (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 104.0, "ContributionID": 705407, "EditedText": "I have in my hand a copy of a document subtitled \"A Partnership for Scotland\". No, it is not the \"Partnership for Scotland\" document, which is now more commonly known as the articles of surrender of the Scottish Liberal Democrats. This is the partnership for Scotland document that started the whole scandal of the privatisation of our hospitals and schools; this was the document in which Michael Forsyth introduced the private finance initiative to Scotland. In one telling line, Forsyth says it all: he says that the private sector will have the \"scope for higher profits\". Talk about being the master of understatement. At one stroke, Michael Forsyth sacrificed public need on the altar of private greed. That was at the fag-end of the Tory Government. The SNP was not alone in opposing the theft of public assets—only the Tories were enthusiastic about giving their pals in the private sector a licence to print money at the taxpayers' expense. New Labour was incandescent in its opposition. At the Labour conference before the 1997 election, the Labour party blasted the Tories for what it described as the creeping privatisation of the NHS under the private finance initiative. We all know that those heady days of principle are long gone. Under new Labour, the creeping privatisation of the Tories has become galloping privatisation. Scotland has six times as many PFI projects as Wales and Northern Ireland put together. Since new Labour came to power, Donald Dewar has signed away 20 times more money for PFI schemes.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have in my hand a copy of a document subtitled \"A Partnership for Scotland\". No, it is not the \"Partnership for Scotland\" document, which is now more commonly known as the articles of surrender of the Scottish Liberal Democrats. This is the partnership for Scotland document that started the whole scandal of the privatisation of our hospitals and schools; this was the document in which Michael Forsyth introduced the private finance initiative to Scotland. In one telling line, Forsyth says it all: he says that the private sector will have the \"scope for higher profits\". Talk about being the master of understatement. At one stroke, Michael Forsyth sacrificed public need on the altar of private greed.

That was at the fag-end of the Tory Government. The SNP was not alone in opposing the theft of public assets—only the Tories were enthusiastic about giving their pals in the private sector a licence to print money at the taxpayers' expense. New Labour was incandescent in its opposition. At the Labour conference before the 1997 election, the Labour party blasted the Tories for what it described as the creeping privatisation of the NHS under the private finance initiative.

We all know that those heady days of principle are long gone. Under new Labour, the creeping privatisation of the Tories has become galloping privatisation. Scotland has six times as many PFI projects as Wales and Northern Ireland put together. Since new Labour came to power, Donald Dewar has signed away 20 times more money for PFI schemes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C705408", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Murray Tosh (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 106.0, "ContributionID": 705408, "EditedText": "Will the electors to whom Mrs Ullrich appealed in the recent election value the creation, under PFI, of a major sewage treatment works in her area, which could never have been funded under conventional borrowing? Is that not practical evidence of the benefits that this approach will bring to her area?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the electors to whom Mrs Ullrich appealed in the recent election value the creation, under PFI, of a major sewage treatment works in her area, which could never have been funded under conventional borrowing? Is that not practical evidence of the benefits that this approach will bring to her area?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1811E172P455C705409", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ullrich, Kay", "ID": 1811, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kay Ullrich", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Kay Ullrich: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 108.0, "ContributionID": 705409, "EditedText": "Constituents in the area where I live and where I fought the election would value the scheme more if they were not having to pay through the nose for it.", "EditedTextHTML": "Constituents in the area where I live and where I fought the election would value the scheme more if they were not having to pay through the nose for it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C705410", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 110.0, "ContributionID": 705410, "EditedText": "Will Mrs Ullrich answer the question?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mrs Ullrich answer the question?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1803E78P291C705414", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gillon, Karen", "ID": 1803, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Clydesdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Karen Gillon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Karen Gillon (Clydesdale) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 118.0, "ContributionID": 705414, "EditedText": "Will Mrs Ullrich agree that Unison's head of health, John Lambie, dismissed the SNP's policy as unworkable, ill thought out, ill advised and unable to fulfil the needs of the public sector?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mrs Ullrich agree that Unison's head of health, John Lambie, dismissed the SNP's policy as unworkable, ill thought out, ill advised and unable to fulfil the needs of the public sector?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C705417", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 125.0, "ContributionID": 705417, "EditedText": "Does Des McNulty agree that the Bank of Scotland's activities in recent years have not provided the best guide for judging anything? Is it not the case that, according to the Financial Times in recent months, the sub-committee established by the chancellor, Gordon Brown, to consider PFI—the so-called Bates committee—is likely to come out in favour of something akin to the SNP's proposals?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does Des McNulty agree that the Bank of Scotland's activities in recent years have not provided the best guide for judging anything? Is it not the case that, according to the Financial Times in recent months, the sub-committee established by the chancellor, Gordon Brown, to consider PFI—the so-called Bates committee—is likely to come out in favour of something akin to the SNP's proposals?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1828E200P487C705421", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacDonald, Margo", "ID": 1828, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margo MacDonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms MacDonald rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 133.0, "ContributionID": 705421, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C705433", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 158.0, "ContributionID": 705433, "EditedText": "The Skye bridge is owned by the public and by the Government. Mr Gibson's statement is untrue and he should withdraw it.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Skye bridge is owned by the public and by the Government. Mr Gibson's statement is untrue and he should withdraw it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1768E72P274C705435", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Murray, Elaine", "ID": 1768, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumfries" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Murray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Elaine Murray (Dumfries) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 162.0, "ContributionID": 705435, "EditedText": "Will Mr Gibson give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr Gibson give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1768E72P274C705439", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Murray, Elaine", "ID": 1768, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumfries" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Murray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Murray: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 170.0, "ContributionID": 705439, "EditedText": "The SNP candidate for Dumfries, Mr Stephen Norris, stated that he would be prepared to support the use of public-private partnerships for the building of the new maternity unit at Dumfries royal infirmary. If the SNP opposes PPPs, why did one of its candidates agree to support them?", "EditedTextHTML": "The SNP candidate for Dumfries, Mr Stephen Norris, stated that he would be prepared to support the use of public-private partnerships for the building of the new maternity unit at Dumfries royal infirmary. If the SNP opposes PPPs, why did one of its candidates agree to support them?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C705445", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 182.0, "ContributionID": 705445, "EditedText": "I was sure that he would not.", "EditedTextHTML": "I was sure that he would not.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C705447", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 186.0, "ContributionID": 705447, "EditedText": "Mr Gibson cannot launch a diatribe against PPP, of which PFI is a part—I will inform him of that since he does not seem to know the difference—in the Parliament and at the same time say that the SNP is forced to use PFI on the ground. The SNP is saying one thing in this chamber and doing a different thing in local government. They cannot get away with that.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Gibson cannot launch a diatribe against PPP, of which PFI is a part—I will inform him of that since he does not seem to know the difference—in the Parliament and at the same time say that the SNP is forced to use PFI on the ground. The SNP is saying one thing in this chamber and doing a different thing in local government. They cannot get away with that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C705450", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 192.0, "ContributionID": 705450, "EditedText": "Will Mr Gibson continue with his speech and wind up as quickly as he can?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr Gibson continue with his speech and wind up as quickly as he can?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C705456", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 205.0, "ContributionID": 705456, "EditedText": "As Alf Young rightly says, PFI is\"the only game in town.\"What the SNP cannot get away with in this chamber is to launch this extraordinary rhetorical diatribe against PFI, while SNP-controlled local authorities are taking advantage of PFI.", "EditedTextHTML": "As Alf Young rightly says, PFI is

\"the only game in town.\"

What the SNP cannot get away with in this chamber is to launch this extraordinary rhetorical diatribe against PFI, while SNP-controlled local authorities are taking advantage of PFI.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C705458", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 209.0, "ContributionID": 705458, "EditedText": "I will gladly give way to Ms Sturgeon if she resumes her seat and does not get too excited. I will give way to her in a minute. The point is that today the SNP is saying one thing in the chamber while it is doing another on the ground, in local government. It cannot get away with that. If members of the SNP had lodged a more measured motion today, which made constructive proposals on PFI and explained their own policy—which is deeply flawed—we might have listened to them, but they have launched this diatribe while taking advantage of PFI on the ground.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will gladly give way to Ms Sturgeon if she resumes her seat and does not get too excited. I will give way to her in a minute.

The point is that today the SNP is saying one thing in the chamber while it is doing another on the ground, in local government. It cannot get away with that. If members of the SNP had lodged a more measured motion today, which made constructive proposals on PFI and explained their own policy—which is deeply flawed—we might have listened to them, but they have launched this diatribe while taking advantage of PFI on the ground.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C705461", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 215.0, "ContributionID": 705461, "EditedText": "Will Mr Raffan give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr Raffan give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C705468", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 229.0, "ContributionID": 705468, "EditedText": "I am all for transparency and I am all for openness. From what I have heard—and I listened closely to the minister—he supports that as well. Transparency I want; it is the SNP's diatribe and rhetoric that I am not having anything to do with. This is a complex and important issue, and the SNP has yet to explain its policy. The crucial point is that partnerships between the private and public sectors produce capital projects earlier and more efficiently than otherwise would be the case. That is why I mentioned the case of Balfron High School. Either the SNP has to explain and develop its policy convincingly so that its inherent flaws are removed, or it has to accept the alternative to borrowing, which is tax. We know that the SNP is the tax party—", "EditedTextHTML": "I am all for transparency and I am all for openness. From what I have heard—and I listened closely to the minister—he supports that as well. Transparency I want; it is the SNP's diatribe and rhetoric that I am not having anything to do with. This is a complex and important issue, and the SNP has yet to explain its policy.

The crucial point is that partnerships between the private and public sectors produce capital projects earlier and more efficiently than otherwise would be the case. That is why I mentioned the case of Balfron High School. Either the SNP has to explain and develop its policy convincingly so that its inherent flaws are removed, or it has to accept the alternative to borrowing, which is tax. We know that the SNP is the tax party—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C705474", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Simpson rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 242.0, "ContributionID": 705474, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C705477", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 248.0, "ContributionID": 705477, "EditedText": "Could Richard let me get started? I know that he loves intervening when I am speaking, and we seem to be developing a relationship here. Laughter.", "EditedTextHTML": "Could Richard let me get started? I know that he loves intervening when I am speaking, and we seem to be developing a relationship here. [Laughter.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C705478", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Children and Education (Mr Sam Galbraith): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 250.0, "ContributionID": 705478, "EditedText": "She has been snubbed by the SNP.", "EditedTextHTML": "She has been snubbed by the SNP.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C705482", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 258.0, "ContributionID": 705482, "EditedText": "A number of members have indicated that they wish to speak in the debate. To try to accommodate them all, I will impose a time limit of four minutes from now on. I ask members to adhere to that.", "EditedTextHTML": "A number of members have indicated that they wish to speak in the debate. To try to accommodate them all, I will impose a time limit of four minutes from now on. I ask members to adhere to that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C705484", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bruce Crawford: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 263.0, "ContributionID": 705484, "EditedText": "Scrutiny is very important in regard to PFI. Has Mr Chisholm been told by ministers in his own Government about level playing field support? That is the process whereby local authorities were encouraged to become involved in private finance initiatives. Has he been told by the Labour front bench how much level playing field support exists for local authorities for future private finance initiatives? Further, has he been told that it may well be exhausted?", "EditedTextHTML": "Scrutiny is very important in regard to PFI. Has Mr Chisholm been told by ministers in his own Government about level playing field support? That is the process whereby local authorities were encouraged to become involved in private finance initiatives. Has he been told by the Labour front bench how much level playing field support exists for local authorities for future private finance initiatives? Further, has he been told that it may well be exhausted?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C705493", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan (Glasgow) (SSP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 283.0, "ContributionID": 705493, "EditedText": "The speech that we have just heard is the kind of speech that would have been made by a Labour member five or 10 years ago. It was full of socialist content. Some of the members on the Labour benches used to be socialists. The problem with today's debate is the stench of hypocrisy and arrogance. The British Medical Association is one of the most respected bodies in the national health service; Unison is the largest trade union in Scotland; and the Scottish Trades Union Congress represents some 900,000 organised trade unionists in Scotland, yet all those bodies are completely and emphatically opposed to the private finance initiative. That is why this debate is arrogant. Are the BMA, Unison and the STUC wrong and Labour, the Liberal Democrats and the Tories right? Do the parties have the monopoly on wisdom? Jack McConnell warned Opposition members that we had better get in line or, in places such as Glasgow and Falkirk, the voters would take umbrage. In Glasgow, which used to be rock-solid Labour territory, there is no longer a single safe Labour seat. In Falkirk, my respected companion, Dennis Canavan, gave youse a gubbing—to use the parlance of Glasgow. If Jack thinks that PFI is popular and that we will lose support if we do not get in line, he is on a hiding to nothing. Politics is about priorities. Mr Ingram gave us an illustration of how this Government's policies are all wrong. Three years ago, under the Tory Government, a campaign was started in Glasgow, which was taken up by the Glasgow Evening Times, to raise £1.5 million for an MRI scanner for the children's hospital at Yorkhill. Three years later, the money has been raised through public donations. In the same week as that campaign was launched, the Tory Government announced that it would support the British contribution to the Eurofighter project at a cost of £15 billion. That is the politics of priority—Governments that can afford £15,000 million for weapons of destruction, but cannot afford £1.5 million for an MRI scanner for a children's hospital. The problem that faces Labour members is that the Scottish electorate cherish our public services and the fact that they are delivered on the basis of need, not to satisfy the bank balance of shareholders. That is why we talk about best value when we talk about health, our schools and our houses. The director of the City of Glasgow Council's housing department had to admit that the best way to achieve best value in delivering a complete renovation of Glasgow's housing stock was through conventional public investment. The problem is that, because of the archaic public sector borrowing requirement rules that we use in Britain—the only country in Europe to use them— that method of financing has been forgotten.", "EditedTextHTML": "The speech that we have just heard is the kind of speech that would have been made by a Labour member five or 10 years ago. It was full of socialist content. Some of the members on the Labour benches used to be socialists.

The problem with today's debate is the stench of hypocrisy and arrogance. The British Medical Association is one of the most respected bodies in the national health service; Unison is the largest trade union in Scotland; and the Scottish Trades Union Congress represents some 900,000 organised trade unionists in Scotland, yet all those bodies are completely and emphatically opposed to the private finance initiative. That is why this debate is arrogant. Are the BMA, Unison and the STUC wrong and Labour, the Liberal Democrats and the Tories right? Do the parties have the monopoly on wisdom?

Jack McConnell warned Opposition members that we had better get in line or, in places such as Glasgow and Falkirk, the voters would take umbrage. In Glasgow, which used to be rock-solid Labour territory, there is no longer a single safe Labour seat. In Falkirk, my respected companion,

Dennis Canavan, gave youse a gubbing—to use the parlance of Glasgow. If Jack thinks that PFI is popular and that we will lose support if we do not get in line, he is on a hiding to nothing.

Politics is about priorities. Mr Ingram gave us an illustration of how this Government's policies are all wrong. Three years ago, under the Tory Government, a campaign was started in Glasgow, which was taken up by the Glasgow Evening Times, to raise £1.5 million for an MRI scanner for the children's hospital at Yorkhill. Three years later, the money has been raised through public donations.

In the same week as that campaign was launched, the Tory Government announced that it would support the British contribution to the Eurofighter project at a cost of £15 billion. That is the politics of priority—Governments that can afford £15,000 million for weapons of destruction, but cannot afford £1.5 million for an MRI scanner for a children's hospital.

The problem that faces Labour members is that the Scottish electorate cherish our public services and the fact that they are delivered on the basis of need, not to satisfy the bank balance of shareholders. That is why we talk about best value when we talk about health, our schools and our houses. The director of the City of Glasgow Council's housing department had to admit that the best way to achieve best value in delivering a complete renovation of Glasgow's housing stock was through conventional public investment. The problem is that, because of the archaic public sector borrowing requirement rules that we use in Britain—the only country in Europe to use them— that method of financing has been forgotten.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C705496", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 289.0, "ContributionID": 705496, "EditedText": "I ask you to wind up, please.", "EditedTextHTML": "I ask you to wind up, please.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C705498", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 293.0, "ContributionID": 705498, "EditedText": "Will you wind up now, please?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will you wind up now, please?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1906E278P355C705503", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Welsh, Andrew", "ID": 1906, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Angus" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Welsh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Welsh rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 304.0, "ContributionID": 705503, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2090E83P266C705504", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAllion, Mr John", "ID": 2090, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dundee East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John McAllion", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McAllion: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 306.0, "ContributionID": 705504, "EditedText": "Sit down. I have given way once and do not have time to give way again. There is a public-private partnership at Baldovie in my constituency, where we are replacing the old incinerator with a new waste-to-energy plant. That is being done, and the plant is to be operated, under a public-private partnership. Members may say, \"Fine, that is another example of Labour going down the privatisation road.\" Why, then, did Angus Council volunteer to become a partner in that public-private partnership? It was not forced to. It asked to get in because it wanted a way forward.", "EditedTextHTML": "Sit down. I have given way once and do not have time to give way again.

There is a public-private partnership at Baldovie in my constituency, where we are replacing the old incinerator with a new waste-to-energy plant. That is being done, and the plant is to be operated, under a public-private partnership. Members may say, \"Fine, that is another example of Labour going down the privatisation road.\" Why, then, did Angus Council volunteer to become a partner in that public-private partnership? It was not forced to. It asked to get in because it wanted a way forward.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2090E83P266C705506", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAllion, Mr John", "ID": 2090, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dundee East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John McAllion", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McAllion: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 310.0, "ContributionID": 705506, "EditedText": "I will not give way. The honourable lady—sorry, it is not very honourable. Mrs—I cannot remember her name, but she can make her own speech in her own time. SNP members cannot come here, preach socialism and then return to their constituencies and practise capitalism.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will not give way. The honourable lady—sorry, it is not very honourable. Mrs—I cannot remember her name, but she can make her own speech in her own time. SNP members cannot come here, preach socialism and then return to their constituencies and practise capitalism.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C705516", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Galbraith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 331.0, "ContributionID": 705516, "EditedText": "It does not cost 10 times the amount.", "EditedTextHTML": "It does not cost 10 times the amount.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2010E221P512C705517", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Paterson, Gil", "ID": 2010, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Gil Paterson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Paterson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 333.0, "ContributionID": 705517, "EditedText": "It does, Sam, if you do your sums, and the worst thing about it is that not only will they pay the invoice, they will end up not owning whatever they paid for.", "EditedTextHTML": "It does, Sam, if you do your sums, and the worst thing about it is that not only will they pay the invoice, they will end up not owning whatever they paid for.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1996E124P211C705518", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAveety, Mr Frank", "ID": 1996, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Shettleston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Local Government", "SpeakerName": "Frank McAveety", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McAveety: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 335.0, "ContributionID": 705518, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2010E221P512C705519", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Paterson, Gil", "ID": 2010, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Gil Paterson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Paterson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 337.0, "ContributionID": 705519, "EditedText": "No, I have only four minutes.Taking up the Tory point, what business in its right mind would do the same thing? What business would lease property at 10 times the capital cost? I lease property, but I do not do it at 10 times the capital cost. I would be bankrupt if I did and no sensible business person would ever do it. Here is a wee challenge for members. Who would buy a house—say in Bearsden, Sam—for £100,000 and end up paying £1 million in the knowledge that, in 30 years' time, the Halifax will chap on the door and evict them? Members should press their green button if they say yes to that.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I have only four minutes.

Taking up the Tory point, what business in its right mind would do the same thing? What business would lease property at 10 times the capital cost? I lease property, but I do not do it at 10 times the capital cost. I would be bankrupt if I did and no sensible business person would ever do it.

Here is a wee challenge for members. Who would buy a house—say in Bearsden, Sam—for £100,000 and end up paying £1 million in the knowledge that, in 30 years' time, the Halifax will chap on the door and evict them? Members should press their green button if they say yes to that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C705520", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 339.0, "ContributionID": 705520, "EditedText": "Will the member take a point of information?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member take a point of information?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2010E221P512C705523", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Paterson, Gil", "ID": 2010, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Gil Paterson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Paterson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 345.0, "ContributionID": 705523, "EditedText": "The thing is that they have only one way to go and that is across that bridge. I know that it is a new bridge in the Highlands and that it is for the benefit of people on the mainland. To be quite frank, I am ashamed of the situation on Skye. I am ashamed that it has gone on for so long and I think that that shame transverses this chamber. The Liberals have made a big noise about it. The solution that they have reached in the partnership agreement is to stagnate the charges—bully for them. I suggest that Liberal members do not give up their day job if that is the best deal they can do. I would not like to see them do a bad deal. For me, their suggestion is like a policeman saying to a battered woman, after he chaps on the door, \"We know that you are battered, and that you get battered every night, but the good news is that it ain't gonna get any worse.\" Somebody mentioned nuclear weapons and Trident. Would not that be a great thing for PFI? People could not do it. We all know that when Trident is redundant—frankly, it is redundant now—nothing but a mess will be left. It will cost as much to decommission it as it cost to put it in place. We are lumbered with that. What are we ending up with? Things that we do not want under PFI, such as Trident, and things like that that we cannot get rid of—and we do not get to own the stuff of communities, such as schools, roads and hospitals.", "EditedTextHTML": "The thing is that they have only one way to go and that is across that bridge. I know that it is a new bridge in the Highlands and that it is for the benefit of people on the mainland. To be quite frank, I am ashamed of the situation on Skye. I am ashamed that it has gone on for so long and I think that that shame transverses this chamber. The Liberals have made a big noise about it. The solution that they have reached in the partnership agreement is to stagnate the charges—bully for them. I suggest that Liberal members do not give up their day job if that is the best deal they can do. I would not like to see them do a bad deal. For me, their suggestion is like a policeman saying to a battered woman, after he chaps on the door, \"We know that you are battered, and that you get battered every night, but the good news is that it ain't gonna get any worse.\"

Somebody mentioned nuclear weapons and Trident. Would not that be a great thing for PFI? People could not do it. We all know that when Trident is redundant—frankly, it is redundant now—nothing but a mess will be left. It will cost as much to decommission it as it cost to put it in place. We are lumbered with that.

What are we ending up with? Things that we do not want under PFI, such as Trident, and things like that that we cannot get rid of—and we do not get to own the stuff of communities, such as schools, roads and hospitals.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1996E124P211C705524", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAveety, Mr Frank", "ID": 1996, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Shettleston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Local Government", "SpeakerName": "Frank McAveety", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McAveety: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 347.0, "ContributionID": 705524, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C705526", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 351.0, "ContributionID": 705526, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2010E221P512C705529", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Paterson, Gil", "ID": 2010, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Gil Paterson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Paterson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 357.0, "ContributionID": 705529, "EditedText": "For me, PFI always has been and always will be a rank, rotten Tory policy, which, unfortunately, some good people over there will follow.", "EditedTextHTML": "For me, PFI always has been and always will be a rank, rotten Tory policy, which, unfortunately, some good people over there will follow.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1826E199P351C705530", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Smith, Margaret", "ID": 1826, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Smith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Margaret Smith (Edinburgh West) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 360.0, "ContributionID": 705530, "EditedText": "Like Mr McAllion, I do not know everything. I amnot an economist and finance is not my strong suit. My husband would agree with that. I am much better at spending money than saving it and I do not know much about Treasury rules. No doubt we will all become more acquainted with the subject during the next four years. Not one member is unaware of some of the drawbacks of PFI and PPP. We might not know the full facts, but we have all heard of examples that have concerned us and given rise to questions. On the other hand, we all agree that there is a need for substantial capital investment in hospitals, schools, roads and other public infrastructure, and we have to work within the fiscal and financial limitations of this Parliament. That is the background to this subject. As a Liberal Democrat candidate in Edinburgh at the election I had severe concerns—I still do— about many of the elements of the new royal infirmary. I could bandy figures around—and Mr McConnell and Mr Galbraith would jump to their feet and tell me that they have figures to bandy back at me—but the reality is that many of us still have concerns. My three main concerns have always been: value for money for the Scottish taxpayer; workers' rights—particularly the local example of pensions at the royal infirmary, but also examples across Scotland—not only in health projects but in schools projects that I am acquainted with; and the need to retain public assets in public hands if necessary and desirable. Everybody in this chamber is well acquainted with the fact that, with those concerns in mind, the Liberal Democrats have entered a partnership agreement to deliver stable government for Scotland. In the partnership agreement, we have taken forward the idea that best value is crucial. The role of the committees will be crucial in ensuring that best value is integral to all projects from now on. We must also tackle the problems of workers' rights. I was pleased to hear Mr McConnell's comments today. Many of us will look into that matter with him to get some meat on those bones. As the representatives of the people, we want to ensure that we keep the right to retain public projects when that is in the best interests of the public. I echo many of the comments made by Malcolm Chisholm, John McAllion and others.", "EditedTextHTML": "

Like Mr McAllion, I do not know everything. I am

not an economist and finance is not my strong suit. My husband would agree with that. I am much better at spending money than saving it and I do not know much about Treasury rules. No doubt we will all become more acquainted with the subject during the next four years.

Not one member is unaware of some of the drawbacks of PFI and PPP. We might not know the full facts, but we have all heard of examples that have concerned us and given rise to questions. On the other hand, we all agree that there is a need for substantial capital investment in hospitals, schools, roads and other public infrastructure, and we have to work within the fiscal and financial limitations of this Parliament. That is the background to this subject.

As a Liberal Democrat candidate in Edinburgh at the election I had severe concerns—I still do— about many of the elements of the new royal infirmary. I could bandy figures around—and Mr McConnell and Mr Galbraith would jump to their feet and tell me that they have figures to bandy back at me—but the reality is that many of us still have concerns.

My three main concerns have always been: value for money for the Scottish taxpayer; workers' rights—particularly the local example of pensions at the royal infirmary, but also examples across Scotland—not only in health projects but in schools projects that I am acquainted with; and the need to retain public assets in public hands if necessary and desirable.

Everybody in this chamber is well acquainted with the fact that, with those concerns in mind, the Liberal Democrats have entered a partnership agreement to deliver stable government for Scotland. In the partnership agreement, we have taken forward the idea that best value is crucial. The role of the committees will be crucial in ensuring that best value is integral to all projects from now on.

We must also tackle the problems of workers' rights. I was pleased to hear Mr McConnell's comments today. Many of us will look into that matter with him to get some meat on those bones.

As the representatives of the people, we want to ensure that we keep the right to retain public projects when that is in the best interests of the public.

I echo many of the comments made by Malcolm Chisholm, John McAllion and others.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1996E124P211C705537", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAveety, Mr Frank", "ID": 1996, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Shettleston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Local Government", "SpeakerName": "Frank McAveety", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McAveety: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 375.0, "ContributionID": 705537, "EditedText": "Can Mr McAskill remind me: was Mr Macmillan alive when PFI was introduced?", "EditedTextHTML": "Can Mr McAskill remind me: was Mr Macmillan alive when PFI was introduced?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1873E89P171C705546", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jackson, Dr Sylvia", "ID": 1873, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Stirling" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sylvia Jackson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Sylvia Jackson (Stirling) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 394.0, "ContributionID": 705546, "EditedText": "The debate on PPPs must rank alongside that on student finance as one of the most contentious that faces this Parliament. In practice, both debates have been oversimplified and have failed to capture the complexities of the issues involved, as many members have pointed out. In the case of PPPs, one mistake has been the failure to recognise that what have been called PFIs and PPPs are not all the same. There is variation and they are evolving. From some of the speeches that SNP members have made, there would seem to be no middle ground. We have polarised the arguments, so that people are either for PPPs or against them. I suggest that we need to consider the middle ground. My approach to this matter starts from basic principles. For most of the past 20 years, the public sector has been starved of resources; most of us agree on that. There is a real danger that, as J K Galbraith, one of the century's most distinguished economists, said, we will have \"private opulence but public squalor\".If that is to be avoided, we must act, and act quickly. My approach to this matter recognises that many of the PFIs that have been introduced to date have been unsatisfactory. The balance between public and private gain has been wrong, and much of the private gain has been made at the expense of public sector workers. The balance may have been wrong because too many of the public sector bodies that have negotiated with the private sector have lacked the expertise that is necessary for them to do so effectively. I criticise much that has happened in the past. The Tories' policy—that the private sector is always best—flies in the face of all experience. There are too many examples, whether from privatisations or PFIs, of the private sector making excessive profits at the expense of the public purse; we have alluded to those already. However, that does not mean that there are no circumstances in which I could support the use of private sector finance for public sector development. Rather, it means that I want there to be much more scepticism about private sector involvement. It means that I want far more controls on the operation of public-private partnerships— controls that will protect the rights of workers who are employed by those partnerships. It means that I want there to be an opportunity for assets that have been developed through the PPPs to revert to public ownership at the end of the defined period. What we have heard today from Jack McConnell gives us hope that that will happen. Members will have seen the briefing that has been provided by the Scottish Parliament information centre and noticed the frequent references to an article by Professor David Bell. Professor Bell is a constituent of mine who works at the University of Stirling. He argues for a mix of public and private funding to develop public assets, so that risk can be shared. However, an important element of what he proposes has received insufficient attention. He argues that the public sector must learn from its mistakes and not bargain with the private sector from a position of weakness. At the moment, too many negotiations with the private sector are carried out by bodies that have little experience in such matters. That must change, so that there is a clear focus for negotiations with the private sector. Malcolm Chisholm has made some good points about how we can make progress on scrutiny and monitoring of that process. Amendment S1M-67.1 seeks to capture many of the points that I have made. It does not reject the notion of public-private partnerships, but recognises that our approach to such partnerships needs to evolve further and that we need to learn from experience. I commend the amendment to the chamber.", "EditedTextHTML": "The debate on PPPs must rank alongside that on student finance as one of the most contentious that faces this Parliament. In practice, both debates have been oversimplified and have failed to capture the complexities of the issues involved, as many members have pointed out. In the case of PPPs, one mistake has been the failure to recognise that what have been called PFIs and PPPs are not all the same. There is variation and they are evolving.

From some of the speeches that SNP members have made, there would seem to be no middle ground. We have polarised the arguments, so that people are either for PPPs or against them. I suggest that we need to consider the middle ground.

My approach to this matter starts from basic principles. For most of the past 20 years, the public sector has been starved of resources; most of us agree on that. There is a real danger that, as J K Galbraith, one of the century's most distinguished economists, said, we will have

\"private opulence but public squalor\".

If that is to be avoided, we must act, and act quickly.

My approach to this matter recognises that many of the PFIs that have been introduced to date have been unsatisfactory. The balance between public and private gain has been wrong, and much of the private gain has been made at the expense of public sector workers. The balance may have been wrong because too many of the public sector bodies that have negotiated with the private sector have lacked the expertise that is necessary for them to do so effectively.

I criticise much that has happened in the past. The Tories' policy—that the private sector is always best—flies in the face of all experience. There are too many examples, whether from privatisations or PFIs, of the private sector making excessive profits at the expense of the public purse; we have alluded to those already. However, that does not mean that there are no circumstances in which I could support the use of private sector finance for public sector development. Rather, it means that I want there to be much more scepticism about private sector involvement. It means that I want far more controls on the operation of public-private partnerships— controls that will protect the rights of workers who are employed by those partnerships. It means that I want there to be an opportunity for assets that have been developed through the PPPs to revert to public ownership at the end of the defined period. What we have heard today from Jack McConnell gives us hope that that will happen.

Members will have seen the briefing that has been provided by the Scottish Parliament information centre and noticed the frequent references to an article by Professor David Bell. Professor Bell is a constituent of mine who works at the University of Stirling. He argues for a mix of public and private funding to develop public assets, so that risk can be shared. However, an important element of what he proposes has received insufficient attention. He argues that the public sector must learn from its mistakes and not bargain with the private sector from a position of weakness. At the moment, too many negotiations with the private sector are carried out by bodies that have little experience in such matters. That must change, so that there is a clear focus for negotiations with the private sector. Malcolm Chisholm has made some good points about how we can make progress on scrutiny and monitoring of that process.

Amendment S1M-67.1 seeks to capture many of the points that I have made. It does not reject the notion of public-private partnerships, but recognises that our approach to such partnerships needs to evolve further and that we need to learn from experience. I commend the amendment to the chamber.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C705548", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 399.0, "ContributionID": 705548, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5140705+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1908E166P251C705550", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Kerr, Andy", "ID": 1908, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Kilbride" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andy Kerr", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Andy Kerr (East Kilbride) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 404.0, "ContributionID": 705550, "EditedText": "I thought that it was inappropriate for Adam Ingram to say that we are not celebrating 50 years of the NHS when the largest building programme in its history is under way. Some of that has been funded through the traditional channels and some under public-private partnerships. I find it strange that he spoke about the needs of the people, when in East Kilbride, where I was born and brought up, the new £67.5 million Hairmyres hospital is literally growing out of the ground. A partnership agreement has been signed by the management and staff, who are represented by Unison. That is a benchmark for participation and for trade union and employee involvement in such schemes. In the hospitals which I knew, people had to get an ambulance to get to the X-ray department from another part of the hospital. The gynaecology patients needed a trolley service to get around different departments. That is the sort of hospital that we are trying to get rid of, and this is the real issue in today's debate: new hospitals would not be built through traditional finance channels. On the Glasgow schools project—I mention this although Kenny Gibson is not in the chamber at the moment—were it not for the PPP input to schools there, it would take 20 years to get to where it will be in three years. That is the reality of funding. We are making hard choices, but governments have to make hard choices. On the campaign trail, I heard that the people of East Kilbride wanted a new hospital on their doorstep. That is what they are getting as part of a modern health service, not a wartime TB hospital, which the staff who work there do not want to work in either. I distance us from the Conservatives, who talk about privatisation. They talked about compulsory competitive tendering, through which conditions and quality could not be taken into account— lowest price was the issue. The Conservatives acted according to that in local government, under compulsory competitive tendering. I have knowledge of that because I worked in the public sector. Lowest price was important, not quality. The contracts are written by the people involved in the health service. They can and do include issues of quality. During the tender evaluation, such issues are considered. That is the strength of the schemes of which we are now in control under the PPP scheme. I welcome the minister's mentioning of openness and pensions in this morning's announcement. Like everyone else, we have concerns about those working in the health service. I am happy to participate in this debate and to support the amendment which has been lodged. Real people in the real world want these services and, at last, those real people are getting them.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thought that it was inappropriate for Adam Ingram to say that we are not celebrating 50 years of the NHS when the largest building programme in its history is under way. Some of that has been funded through the traditional channels and some under public-private partnerships. I find it strange that he spoke about the needs of the people, when in East Kilbride, where I was born and brought up, the new £67.5 million Hairmyres hospital is literally growing out of the ground. A partnership agreement has been signed by the management and staff, who are represented by Unison. That is a benchmark for participation and for trade union and employee involvement in such schemes.

In the hospitals which I knew, people had to get an ambulance to get to the X-ray department from another part of the hospital. The gynaecology patients needed a trolley service to get around different departments. That is the sort of hospital that we are trying to get rid of, and this is the real issue in today's debate: new hospitals would not be built through traditional finance channels.

On the Glasgow schools project—I mention this although Kenny Gibson is not in the chamber at the moment—were it not for the PPP input to schools there, it would take 20 years to get to where it will be in three years. That is the reality of funding. We are making hard choices, but governments have to make hard choices. On the campaign trail, I heard that the people of East

Kilbride wanted a new hospital on their doorstep. That is what they are getting as part of a modern health service, not a wartime TB hospital, which the staff who work there do not want to work in either.

I distance us from the Conservatives, who talk about privatisation. They talked about compulsory competitive tendering, through which conditions and quality could not be taken into account— lowest price was the issue. The Conservatives acted according to that in local government, under compulsory competitive tendering. I have knowledge of that because I worked in the public sector. Lowest price was important, not quality. The contracts are written by the people involved in the health service. They can and do include issues of quality. During the tender evaluation, such issues are considered. That is the strength of the schemes of which we are now in control under the PPP scheme. I welcome the minister's mentioning of openness and pensions in this morning's announcement. Like everyone else, we have concerns about those working in the health service.

I am happy to participate in this debate and to support the amendment which has been lodged. Real people in the real world want these services and, at last, those real people are getting them.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5140705+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C705552", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 409.0, "ContributionID": 705552, "EditedText": "Would Christine Grahame mind relating her left foot experiences to the subject of the debate?", "EditedTextHTML": "Would Christine Grahame mind relating her left foot experiences to the subject of the debate?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5140705+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C705558", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 422.0, "ContributionID": 705558, "EditedText": "That is the nearest we have come all day to a constructive suggestion. I would welcome a debate on central government general deficits, or whatever the jargon is—I can never remember quite how to style it. I would even welcome a debate on the idea of public sector trusts.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is the nearest we have come all day to a constructive suggestion. I would welcome a debate on central government general deficits, or whatever the jargon is—I can never remember quite how to style it. I would even welcome a debate on the idea of public sector trusts.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5140705+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C705562", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 430.0, "ContributionID": 705562, "EditedText": "The SNP this morning has said no to increased investment in education, no to increased investment in housing, no to increased investment in health. It has not brought forward constructive proposals.", "EditedTextHTML": "The SNP this morning has said no to increased investment in education, no to increased investment in housing, no to increased investment in health. It has not brought forward constructive proposals.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5140705+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1970E66P288C705566", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNulty, Des", "ID": 1970, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Clydebank and Milngavie" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Des McNulty", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Des McNulty: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 439.0, "ContributionID": 705566, "EditedText": "Does Mr Wilson accept that I and a number of other speakers suggested several different options for financing different kinds of public investment? The SNP is the only party that is not prepared to put forward a decent option. We are still waiting to hear what the SNP has to offer.", "EditedTextHTML": "Does Mr Wilson accept that I and a number of other speakers suggested several different options for financing different kinds of public investment? The SNP is the only party that is not prepared to put forward a decent option. We are still waiting to hear what the SNP has to offer.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5140705+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C705568", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 443.0, "ContributionID": 705568, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5140705+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1996E124P211C705572", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAveety, Mr Frank", "ID": 1996, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Shettleston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Local Government", "SpeakerName": "Frank McAveety", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McAveety: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 451.0, "ContributionID": 705572, "EditedText": "Will Andrew Wilson take an intervention?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Andrew Wilson take an intervention?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5140705+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C705573", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 453.0, "ContributionID": 705573, "EditedText": "Frank, I will take an intervention. When Tony Blair came into government, his hair went greyer. Yours seems to have gone darker.", "EditedTextHTML": "Frank, I will take an intervention. When Tony Blair came into government, his hair went greyer. Yours seems to have gone darker.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5140705+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1996E124P211C705574", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAveety, Mr Frank", "ID": 1996, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Shettleston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Local Government", "SpeakerName": "Frank McAveety", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McAveety: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 455.0, "ContributionID": 705574, "EditedText": "I thank Mr Wilson, and remind him that I have maintained my consistency for intellectual superiority. After his performance last night on the football field, I suggest that a few more training sessions would be welcome. The principle that should guide any debate— either in local authorities or in this Parliament—is, as the Minister for Finance said, what is in the public interest. Even under conventional rules, the model that we figured for Glasgow City Council's education bid would deliver in three years the kind of schools that people require. Does Mr Wilson accept that, if we waited for the SNP's proposals, a high-school student who is leaving a Glasgow school at the moment could have a child who would also be leaving school by the time the proposals had begun to be implemented, with the school still not improved? We should address the fundamental issue of the moment, which is to deliver in the present a quality education service for the future.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank Mr Wilson, and remind him that I have maintained my consistency for intellectual superiority. After his performance last night on the football field, I suggest that a few more training sessions would be welcome.

The principle that should guide any debate— either in local authorities or in this Parliament—is, as the Minister for Finance said, what is in the public interest. Even under conventional rules, the model that we figured for Glasgow City Council's education bid would deliver in three years the kind of schools that people require. Does Mr Wilson accept that, if we waited for the SNP's proposals, a high-school student who is leaving a Glasgow school at the moment could have a child who would also be leaving school by the time the proposals had begun to be implemented, with the school still not improved? We should address the fundamental issue of the moment, which is to deliver in the present a quality education service for the future.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5140705+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2038E191P344C705580", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Smith, Iain", "ID": 2038, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Iain Smith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Iain Smith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 467.0, "ContributionID": 705580, "EditedText": "Will Mr Wilson give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr Wilson give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5140705+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C705581", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 469.0, "ContributionID": 705581, "EditedText": "I do not know why Mr Smith is jumping up again; I am not taking a second intervention as I have to finish my speech.", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not know why Mr Smith is jumping up again; I am not taking a second intervention as I have to finish my speech.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5140705+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1828E200P487C705589", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacDonald, Margo", "ID": 1828, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margo MacDonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms MacDonald: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 486.0, "ContributionID": 705589, "EditedText": "Will Mr Galbraith give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr Galbraith give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5140705+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C705596", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Galbraith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 500.0, "ContributionID": 705596, "EditedText": "Absolutely. I have heard some rubbish about secrecy and transparency. One of the things that the Labour party has done to alter PFI significantly since the Tories dealt with it is to put every outline business case and full business case in the public domain. Was Andrew Wilson aware of that? It seems odd that he should complain about secrecy when one of the first things that we did was to put those things in the public domain.", "EditedTextHTML": "Absolutely. I have heard some rubbish about secrecy and transparency. One of the things that the Labour party has done to alter PFI significantly since the Tories dealt with it is to put every outline business case and full business case in the public domain. Was Andrew Wilson aware of that? It seems odd that he should complain about secrecy when one of the first things that we did was to put those things in the public domain.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5140705+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C705599", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 506.0, "ContributionID": 705599, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5140705+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C705602", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 512.0, "ContributionID": 705602, "EditedText": "The minister is winding up now.", "EditedTextHTML": "The minister is winding up now.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5140705+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C705603", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Galbraith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 514.0, "ContributionID": 705603, "EditedText": "A member said earlier that this issue would be raised on every hustings. I hope that it will. We will say, \"Look at this hospital. The SNP did not want you to have it. Look at this school. If it had been down to the SNP you would not have it.\" We are not apologising in any way for public-private partnerships. We are proud of them. We are proud that we are delivering schools and hospitals and other facilities for our people. We are the people's party; we are delivering the people's priorities, and we are proud of that. Applause.", "EditedTextHTML": "A member said earlier that this issue would be raised on every hustings. I hope that it will. We will say, \"Look at this hospital. The SNP did not want you to have it. Look at this school. If it had been down to the SNP you would not have it.\" We are not apologising in any way for public-private partnerships. We are proud of them. We are proud that we are delivering schools and hospitals and other facilities for our people. We are the people's party; we are delivering the people's priorities, and we are proud of that. [Applause.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5140705+00:00" }, { "ID": "C705610", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26660, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 518.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 518.0, "ID": 26660, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 528.0, "ContributionID": 705610, "EditedText": "Meeting adjourned at 12:24.", "EditedTextHTML": "Meeting adjourned at 12:24.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5140705+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C705614", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26661, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 531.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26662, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 534.0, "QuestionHeading": "Scottish Arts Council", "QuestionHeadingID": 26663, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 535.0, "DisplayOrder": 535.0, "ID": 26663, "ParentID": 26662 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Children and Education (Mr Sam Galbraith): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 538.0, "ContributionID": 705614, "EditedText": "No. The SAC will have a continuing and evolving role at the centre of cultural life in Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "No. The SAC will have a continuing and evolving role at the centre of cultural life in Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5140705+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C705616", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26661, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 531.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26662, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 534.0, "QuestionHeading": "Scottish Arts Council", "QuestionHeadingID": 26663, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 535.0, "DisplayOrder": 535.0, "ID": 26663, "ParentID": 26662 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Galbraith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 542.0, "ContributionID": 705616, "EditedText": "That is a dreadful slur on the people who give their time freely to the Arts Council; Michael Russell should be wary about making it. He makes a point about involving working artists, but he should bear it in mind that such people often have a vested interest in the distribution of funding. As with the Sports Council, the difficulty in trying to engage people who are active in the field is that they say that, although they would love to be involved, they do not have the time. However, I take Mr Russell's point and we will consider ways in which to involve more working artists in the Arts Council.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is a dreadful slur on the people who give their time freely to the Arts Council; Michael Russell should be wary about making it. He makes a point about involving working artists, but he should bear it in mind that such people often have a vested interest in the distribution of funding.

As with the Sports Council, the difficulty in trying to engage people who are active in the field is that they say that, although they would love to be involved, they do not have the time. However, I take Mr Russell's point and we will consider ways in which to involve more working artists in the Arts Council.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5140705+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C705619", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26661, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 531.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26662, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 534.0, "QuestionHeading": "Small Businesses", "QuestionHeadingID": 26664, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 544.0, "DisplayOrder": 544.0, "ID": 26664, "ParentID": 26662 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 549.0, "ContributionID": 705619, "EditedText": "We can discuss such matters when the review that is anticipated to result from the McIntosh report goes before this Parliament's Local Government Committee. I welcome Mr Ewing's point and look forward to debating such points in the months ahead.", "EditedTextHTML": "We can discuss such matters when the review that is anticipated to result from the McIntosh report goes before this Parliament's Local Government Committee.

I welcome Mr Ewing's point and look forward to debating such points in the months ahead.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5140705+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2142E142P230C705620", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26661, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 531.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26662, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 534.0, "QuestionHeading": "Voluntary Sector", "QuestionHeadingID": 26665, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 551.0, "DisplayOrder": 551.0, "ID": 26665, "ParentID": 26662 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Watson, Mike", "ID": 2142, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Cathcart" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Watson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "3. Mike Watson (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 552.0, "ContributionID": 705620, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has to strengthen its relationship with the voluntary sector in Scotland. (S1O-108) In relation to that question, I would like to register an interest as a board member of the Volunteer Centre, which is based in Glasgow.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has to strengthen its relationship with the voluntary sector in Scotland. (S1O-108) In relation to that question, I would like to register an interest as a board member of the Volunteer Centre, which is based in Glasgow.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5140705+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C705625", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26661, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 531.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26662, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 534.0, "QuestionHeading": "Tourist Boards", "QuestionHeadingID": 26666, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 560.0, "DisplayOrder": 560.0, "ID": 26666, "ParentID": 26662 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bruce Crawford: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 563.0, "ContributionID": 705625, "EditedText": "Years of local authority cuts have had an impact on many services, including support for area tourist boards. Several area tourist boards are on the verge of bankruptcy—or they were at the end of the previous financial year—and that makes it extremely difficult for them. It is also difficult for local authorities to maintain their previous levels of support. What is required is a funding package, stretching over three years, as promised by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in some of his early statements to the House of Commons. When can we expect the Scottish Executive to introduce plans for three-year budgeting for local authorities and other bodies—on an individual council basis— to ensure sustainability and security not only for ATBs, but for other public service organisations?", "EditedTextHTML": "Years of local authority cuts have had an impact on many services, including support for area tourist boards. Several area tourist boards are on the verge of bankruptcy—or they were at the end of the previous financial year—and that makes it extremely difficult for them. It is also difficult for local authorities to maintain their previous levels of support.

What is required is a funding package, stretching over three years, as promised by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in some of his early statements to the House of Commons. When can we expect the Scottish Executive to introduce plans for three-year budgeting for local authorities and other bodies—on an individual council basis— to ensure sustainability and security not only for ATBs, but for other public service organisations?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5140705+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1840E82P158C705627", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26661, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 531.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26662, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 534.0, "QuestionHeading": "Schools", "QuestionHeadingID": 26667, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "DisplayOrder": 567.0, "ID": 26667, "ParentID": 26662 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macmillan, Maureen", "ID": 1840, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Maureen Macmillan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "5. Maureen Macmillan (Highlands and Islands) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 568.0, "ContributionID": 705627, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will make a statement on devolving responsibilities to schools as part of an overall drive to push up school standards. (S1O-103) The Deputy Minister for Children and Education (Peter Peacock): Devolved school management has been a great success in Scotland. It is significant in helping schools to address local priorities and fits well with our drive for continuous improvement in every school in Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will make a statement on devolving responsibilities to schools as part of an overall drive to push up school standards. (S1O-103) The Deputy Minister for Children and Education (Peter Peacock): Devolved school management has been a great success in Scotland. It is significant in helping schools to address local priorities and fits well with our drive for continuous improvement in every school in Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5140705+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2167E79P155C705629", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26661, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 531.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26662, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 534.0, "QuestionHeading": "Schools", "QuestionHeadingID": 26667, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "DisplayOrder": 567.0, "ID": 26667, "ParentID": 26662 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Peacock, Peter", "ID": 2167, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Peter Peacock", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Peter Peacock: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 572.0, "ContributionID": 705629, "EditedText": "Detailed targets are set locally, in discussion between the school and the education authority. There is scope in the system to accommodate particular local circumstances. This morning, I was in a school where that had been done very successfully. The system will be kept under review and head teachers will always have a strong role in local target setting.", "EditedTextHTML": "Detailed targets are set locally, in discussion between the school and the education authority. There is scope in the system to accommodate particular local circumstances. This morning, I was in a school where that had been done very successfully. The system will be kept under review and head teachers will always have a strong role in local target setting.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5140705+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2029E47P167C705630", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26661, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 531.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26662, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 534.0, "QuestionHeading": "Early-years Provision", "QuestionHeadingID": 26668, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 574.0, "DisplayOrder": 574.0, "ID": 26668, "ParentID": 26662 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Henry, Hugh", "ID": 2029, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Hugh Henry", "SpeakerDisplayName": "6. Hugh Henry (Paisley South) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 575.0, "ContributionID": 705630, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will make a statement on how it intends to improve the standard of early-years provision in Scotland. (S1O-110) The Minister for Children and Education (Mr Sam Galbraith): We are investing £384 million in pre-school education and £91 million on child care and support for families with very young children over the next three years.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will make a statement on how it intends to improve the standard of early-years provision in Scotland. (S1O-110) The Minister for Children and Education (Mr Sam Galbraith): We are investing £384 million in pre-school education and £91 million on child care and support for families with very young children over the next three years.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5140705+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1854E38P164C705646", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26661, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 531.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26662, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 534.0, "QuestionHeading": "Schools (Sport)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26672, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 610.0, "DisplayOrder": 610.0, "ID": 26672, "ParentID": 26662 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Godman, Trish", "ID": 1854, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Renfrewshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Trish Godman", "SpeakerDisplayName": "10. Trish Godman (West Renfrewshire) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 611.0, "ContributionID": 705646, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has to promote sport and other physical activities in schools. (S1O-100)", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has to promote sport and other physical activities in schools. (S1O-100)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1862E99P179C705647", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26661, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 531.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26662, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 534.0, "QuestionHeading": "Schools (Sport)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26672, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 610.0, "DisplayOrder": 610.0, "ID": 26672, "ParentID": 26662 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Brankin, Rhona", "ID": 1862, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Midlothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Culture and Sport", "SpeakerName": "Rhona Brankin", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Culture and Sport (Rhona Brankin): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 613.0, "ContributionID": 705647, "EditedText": "We are supporting the appointment of school sports co-ordinators in every secondary school in Scotland, and local authorities will receive up to £1 million of lottery funding to support the scheme in its first year.", "EditedTextHTML": "We are supporting the appointment of school sports co-ordinators in every secondary school in Scotland, and local authorities will receive up to £1 million of lottery funding to support the scheme in its first year.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1854E38P164C705648", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26661, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 531.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26662, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 534.0, "QuestionHeading": "Schools (Sport)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26672, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 610.0, "DisplayOrder": 610.0, "ID": 26672, "ParentID": 26662 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Godman, Trish", "ID": 1854, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Renfrewshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Trish Godman", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Trish Godman: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 615.0, "ContributionID": 705648, "EditedText": "Sir David, neither you nor the minister know this—I do not suppose that many people do—but I was no mean footballer in my day. Laughter. As a matter of fact, had I continued with football I might have been somewhere else rather than here—I ask members not to pass any comment about that. I wish to ask the minister what plans there areto encourage sports and physical activities in primary schools, when children are at a younger age.", "EditedTextHTML": "Sir David, neither you nor the minister know this—I do not suppose that many people do—but I was no mean footballer in my day. [Laughter.] As a matter of fact, had I continued with football I might have been somewhere else rather than here—I ask members not to pass any comment about that.

I wish to ask the minister what plans there are

to encourage sports and physical activities in primary schools, when children are at a younger age.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1862E99P179C705649", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26661, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 531.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26662, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 534.0, "QuestionHeading": "Schools (Sport)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26672, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 610.0, "DisplayOrder": 610.0, "ID": 26672, "ParentID": 26662 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Brankin, Rhona", "ID": 1862, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Midlothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Culture and Sport", "SpeakerName": "Rhona Brankin", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Rhona Brankin: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 617.0, "ContributionID": 705649, "EditedText": "I am glad to see that there is another footballer among the women members in the chamber. The school sports co-ordinators in secondary schools will be encouraged to make links with local associated primary schools, to examine how sports can be developed in those schools. We are making additional funding available for our top sport and play programmes in primary schools. The sum of £2.1 million will be made available from the lottery sports fund to encourage people who introduce play and sport to youngsters of primary school age, and to help to support them in that work. The money will be available for facilities and materials for schools, and for coaching for primary school teachers who wish to become involved.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am glad to see that there is another footballer among the women members in the chamber.

The school sports co-ordinators in secondary schools will be encouraged to make links with local associated primary schools, to examine how sports can be developed in those schools. We are making additional funding available for our top sport and play programmes in primary schools. The sum of £2.1 million will be made available from the lottery sports fund to encourage people who introduce play and sport to youngsters of primary school age, and to help to support them in that work. The money will be available for facilities and materials for schools, and for coaching for primary school teachers who wish to become involved.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1876E194P490C705650", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26661, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 531.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26662, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 534.0, "QuestionHeading": "Teenage Pregnancies", "QuestionHeadingID": 26673, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 619.0, "DisplayOrder": 619.0, "ID": 26673, "ParentID": 26662 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Marwick, Tricia", "ID": 1876, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tricia Marwick", "SpeakerDisplayName": "11. Tricia Marwick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 620.0, "ContributionID": 705650, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has to tackle the level of teenage pregnancies in Scotland. (S1O-74) The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): Tackling the serious issue of teenage pregnancies is a top priority for this Executive. We are developing a comprehensive strategy which recognises both the importance of individual responsibility and the complementary roles of the statutory and voluntary sectors. A major element of our strategy will be the health demonstration project \"Healthy Respect\", which was proposed in the white paper \"Towards a Healthier Scotland\". That will place particular emphasis on reducing unwanted teenage pregnancies.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has to tackle the level of teenage pregnancies in Scotland. (S1O-74) The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): Tackling the serious issue of teenage pregnancies is a top priority for this Executive. We are developing a comprehensive strategy which recognises both the importance of individual responsibility and the complementary roles of the statutory and voluntary sectors. A major element of our strategy will be the health demonstration project \"Healthy Respect\", which was proposed in the white paper \"Towards a Healthier Scotland\". That will place particular emphasis on reducing unwanted teenage pregnancies.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2112E192P495C705655", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26661, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 531.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26662, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 534.0, "QuestionHeading": "Tolls", "QuestionHeadingID": 26674, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 630.0, "DisplayOrder": 630.0, "ID": 26674, "ParentID": 26662 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacAskill, Kenny", "ID": 2112, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenny MacAskill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "12. Mr Kenny MacAskill (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 631.0, "ContributionID": 705655, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it intends to extend the commitment in respect of the Skye bridge to freeze tolls at their current level to other bridges and transport infrastructure schemes, in particular to the Forth, Tay and Erskine bridges. (S1O-79) The Minister for Transport and the Environment (Sarah Boyack): The four bridges were procured under different statutes, and have different toll levels, maintenance costs and capital debts. We will freeze the tolls on the Skye bridge at 1999 levels. Tolling at the other bridges will be considered nearer the dates when the respective rights to collect tolls expire, as set out in the relevant statutes.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it intends to extend the commitment in respect of the Skye bridge to freeze tolls at their current level to other bridges and transport infrastructure schemes, in particular to the Forth, Tay and Erskine bridges. (S1O-79) The Minister for Transport and the Environment (Sarah Boyack): The four bridges were procured under different statutes, and have different toll levels, maintenance costs and capital debts. We will freeze the tolls on the Skye bridge at 1999 levels. Tolling at the other bridges will be considered nearer the dates when the respective rights to collect tolls expire, as set out in the relevant statutes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1832E96P195C705662", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26661, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 531.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26662, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 534.0, "QuestionHeading": "Tuition Fees", "QuestionHeadingID": 26676, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 646.0, "DisplayOrder": 646.0, "ID": 26676, "ParentID": 26662 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Livingstone, Marilyn", "ID": 1832, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Kirkcaldy" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Marilyn Livingstone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "15. Marilyn Livingstone (Kirkcaldy) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 647.0, "ContributionID": 705662, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will publish figures regarding the number of Scottish students who are exempt from the payment of any tuition fees. (S1O-117) The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning (Nicol Stephen): The latest figures from the Students Awards Agency for Scotland indicate that of new entrants who made applications during academic year 1998-99, just over 50 per cent were exempt from making a contribution to tuition fees.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will publish figures regarding the number of Scottish students who are exempt from the payment of any tuition fees. (S1O-117) The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning (Nicol Stephen): The latest figures from the Students Awards Agency for Scotland indicate that of new entrants who made applications during academic year 1998-99, just over 50 per cent were exempt from making a contribution to tuition fees.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1832E96P195C705663", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26661, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 531.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26662, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 534.0, "QuestionHeading": "Tuition Fees", "QuestionHeadingID": 26676, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 646.0, "DisplayOrder": 646.0, "ID": 26676, "ParentID": 26662 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Livingstone, Marilyn", "ID": 1832, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Kirkcaldy" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Marilyn Livingstone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Marilyn Livingstone: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 649.0, "ContributionID": 705663, "EditedText": "What provision has been made for student access funding in the higher education sector?", "EditedTextHTML": "What provision has been made for student access funding in the higher education sector?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1996E124P211C705667", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26661, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 531.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26662, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 534.0, "QuestionHeading": "Local Government", "QuestionHeadingID": 26677, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 653.0, "DisplayOrder": 653.0, "ID": 26677, "ParentID": 26662 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAveety, Mr Frank", "ID": 1996, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Shettleston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Local Government", "SpeakerName": "Frank McAveety", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McAveety: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 658.0, "ContributionID": 705667, "EditedText": "As this chamber knows, those two individuals are very good friends of mine and I often support the views of Wendy Alexander and the leader of Glasgow City Council. The McIntosh commission was an opportunity to engage in the debate about the future of local government. A series of recommendations will be considered by this Parliament. I hope that Mr Gibson shares my enthusiasm for renewing local democracy in partnership with local authorities for the future benefit of everyone in Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "As this chamber knows, those two individuals are very good friends of mine and I often support the views of Wendy Alexander and the leader of Glasgow City Council. The McIntosh commission was an opportunity to engage in the debate about the future of local government. A series of recommendations will be considered by this Parliament. I hope that Mr Gibson shares my enthusiasm for renewing local democracy in partnership with local authorities for the future benefit of everyone in Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2118E157P454C705668", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26661, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 531.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26662, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 534.0, "QuestionHeading": "Fuel Poverty (People with Disabilities)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26678, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 660.0, "DisplayOrder": 660.0, "ID": 26678, "ParentID": 26662 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Quinan, Mr Lloyd", "ID": 2118, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lloyd Quinan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "17. Mr Lloyd Quinan (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 661.0, "ContributionID": 705668, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what measures it intends to implement to alleviate fuel poverty among people with disabilities. (S1O-96) The Deputy Minister for Social Inclusion, Equality and the Voluntary Sector (Jackie Baillie): The new warm deal will be introduced on 1 July. Householders in receipt of benefits, including disability benefits, will be eligible for a grant of up to £500 for home insulation. The annual budget will be £12 million. That is twice the amount that was spent in 1997.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what measures it intends to implement to alleviate fuel poverty among people with disabilities. (S1O-96) The Deputy Minister for Social Inclusion, Equality and the Voluntary Sector (Jackie Baillie): The new warm deal will be introduced on 1 July. Householders in receipt of benefits, including disability benefits, will be eligible for a grant of up to £500 for home insulation. The annual budget will be £12 million. That is twice the amount that was spent in 1997.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2118E157P454C705669", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26661, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 531.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26662, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 534.0, "QuestionHeading": "Fuel Poverty (People with Disabilities)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26678, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 660.0, "DisplayOrder": 660.0, "ID": 26678, "ParentID": 26662 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Quinan, Mr Lloyd", "ID": 2118, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lloyd Quinan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Quinan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 663.0, "ContributionID": 705669, "EditedText": "Having, in the preparations for the new warm deal, prioritised private sector housing, will the minister give a similar priority to people with disabilities in both public and private housing?", "EditedTextHTML": "Having, in the preparations for the new warm deal, prioritised private sector housing, will the minister give a similar priority to people with disabilities in both public and private housing?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1962E35P56C705674", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26661, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 531.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26662, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 534.0, "QuestionHeading": "Dumfries and Galloway", "QuestionHeadingID": 26680, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 674.0, "DisplayOrder": 674.0, "ID": 26680, "ParentID": 26662 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mundell, David", "ID": 1962, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Mundell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "19. David Mundell (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 675.0, "ContributionID": 705674, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it has any plans to alter the operational boundaries of Dumfries and Galloway police force or Dumfries and Galloway fire brigade. (S1O-89)", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it has any plans to alter the operational boundaries of Dumfries and Galloway police force or Dumfries and Galloway fire brigade. (S1O-89)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1863E284P532C705679", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26661, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 531.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26662, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 534.0, "QuestionHeading": "Domestic Violence", "QuestionHeadingID": 26681, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 683.0, "DisplayOrder": 683.0, "ID": 26681, "ParentID": 26662 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Cunningham, Roseanna", "ID": 1863, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Perth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Roseanna Cunningham", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Roseanna Cunningham: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 686.0, "ContributionID": 705679, "EditedText": "I am sure that everybody here will applaud any attempt to reduce this particular scourge on our society. I would like Mr Wallace to consider the available penalties. As part of the discussion, will he consider enhanced penalties for breaches of the peace where there is evidence of harassment or where there are overtones of domestic violence, and enhanced penalties for what are effectively domestic violence assaults, so that—without necessarily creating a specific crime—we nevertheless get the action that we require in the courts?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sure that everybody here will applaud any attempt to reduce this particular scourge on our society. I would like Mr Wallace to consider the available penalties. As part of the discussion, will he consider enhanced penalties for breaches of the peace where there is evidence of harassment or where there are overtones of domestic violence, and enhanced penalties for what are effectively domestic violence assaults, so that—without necessarily creating a specific crime—we nevertheless get the action that we require in the courts?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2090E83P266C705681", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26661, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 531.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26662, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 534.0, "QuestionHeading": "Local Authorities", "QuestionHeadingID": 26682, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 690.0, "DisplayOrder": 690.0, "ID": 26682, "ParentID": 26662 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAllion, Mr John", "ID": 2090, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dundee East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John McAllion", "SpeakerDisplayName": "21. Mr John McAllion (Dundee East) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 691.0, "ContributionID": 705681, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has to review the criteria used for distributing Government grants to local authorities in Scotland. (S1O-101) The Minister for Finance (Mr Jack McConnell): Major reviews of the system for distributing grants are already under way and we intend to continue them after 1 July. This week, we also intend to look carefully at the McIntosh commission recommendations on local authority finance. We will report to the Parliament about that next Friday.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has to review the criteria used for distributing Government grants to local authorities in Scotland. (S1O-101) The Minister for Finance (Mr Jack McConnell): Major reviews of the system for distributing grants are already under way and we intend to continue them after 1 July. This week, we also intend to look carefully at the McIntosh

commission recommendations on local authority finance. We will report to the Parliament about that next Friday.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C705686", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26683, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 697.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26684, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "QuestionHeading": "Economy", "QuestionHeadingID": 26685, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 701.0, "DisplayOrder": 701.0, "ID": 26685, "ParentID": 26684 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning (Henry McLeish): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 704.0, "ContributionID": 705686, "EditedText": "On many of the standard indicators, the Scottish economy is performing well. Unemployment in Scotland is falling, employment is increasing and youth and long-term unemployment are both at historically low levels. Scottish manufacturers and exporters have performed resiliently in the face of difficult trading conditions. This is a tribute to the Government's very successful management of the UK economy over the past two years. Devolution and the creation of this Parliament have given us an opportunity to consolidate our economic success, which we will do on the basis of the principles and initiatives set out in \"Partnership for Scotland\".", "EditedTextHTML": "On many of the standard indicators, the Scottish economy is performing well. Unemployment in Scotland is falling, employment is increasing and youth and long-term unemployment are both at historically low levels. Scottish manufacturers and exporters have performed resiliently in the face of difficult trading conditions. This is a tribute to the Government's very successful management of the UK economy over the past two years. Devolution and the creation of this Parliament have given us an opportunity to consolidate our economic success, which we will do on the basis of the principles and initiatives set out in \"Partnership for Scotland\".

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C705694", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26683, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 697.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26684, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "QuestionHeading": "Education", "QuestionHeadingID": 26686, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 718.0, "DisplayOrder": 718.0, "ID": 26686, "ParentID": 26684 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 721.0, "ContributionID": 705694, "EditedText": "The Conservatives invented the phrase \"raising standards in schools\" and we achieved it during our term of office. I draw the First Minister's attention to the remarks made yesterday by his colleague, Mr Galbraith, in response to my friend, Bill Aitken. The Minister for Children and Education said: \"Can we please put a stop to such language as sanctions, bludgeons and attacks, and to driving wedges between us and education authorities?\"—Official Report, 23 June 1999; Vol 1, c 674. As the First Minister will recall from his days at law school—if not, I am sure the Deputy First Minister will remind him—the essence of a duty is that it is an enforceable obligation. Accordingly, will the imposition of a statutory duty to raise standards in schools be accompanied by sanctions to force councils to toe the Government line or to meet its targets? If so, how does that square with the warm words uttered by Mr Galbraith yesterday?", "EditedTextHTML": "The Conservatives invented the phrase \"raising standards in schools\" and we achieved it during our term of office.

I draw the First Minister's attention to the remarks made yesterday by his colleague, Mr Galbraith, in response to my friend, Bill Aitken. The Minister for Children and Education said:

\"Can we please put a stop to such language as sanctions, bludgeons and attacks, and to driving wedges between us and education authorities?\"—[Official Report, 23 June 1999; Vol 1, c 674.]

As the First Minister will recall from his days at law school—if not, I am sure the Deputy First Minister will remind him—the essence of a duty is that it is an enforceable obligation. Accordingly, will the imposition of a statutory duty to raise standards in schools be accompanied by sanctions to force councils to toe the Government line or to meet its targets? If so, how does that square with the warm words uttered by Mr Galbraith yesterday?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C705695", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26683, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 697.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26684, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "QuestionHeading": "Education", "QuestionHeadingID": 26686, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 718.0, "DisplayOrder": 718.0, "ID": 26686, "ParentID": 26684 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 723.0, "ContributionID": 705695, "EditedText": "We have repeatedly made it clear that we want to work with teachers to reinforce and buttress their professionalism and to make progress on raising standards. That process is already under way. Ronald Smith, the general secretary of the Educational Institute of Scotland said on television the other day: \"I would like to see positive obligations on local authorities and governments to support schools\". For that, he went on to say, the Government must\"provide the wherewithal to make it possible\".He then talked about his desire for a national educational development plan within the framework of which new ideas could be developed. As Mr McLetchie knows, the excellence funds— to take one example—will add £377 million to education authorities' funds over this and the next two years. From 1997-98 to the end of the comprehensive spending review period, education authorities will have additional spending power of £379 per pupil. The Government is providing the wherewithal. That provides a good basis for co-operation to work towards common aims and objectives. I invite the Conservative party to take a constructive interest in that process and to move into the 21st century with us.", "EditedTextHTML": "We have repeatedly made it clear that we want to work with teachers to reinforce and buttress their professionalism and to make progress on raising standards. That process is already under way.

Ronald Smith, the general secretary of the Educational Institute of Scotland said on television the other day:

\"I would like to see positive obligations on local authorities and governments to support schools\".

For that, he went on to say, the Government must

\"provide the wherewithal to make it possible\".

He then talked about his desire for a national educational development plan within the framework of which new ideas could be developed.

As Mr McLetchie knows, the excellence funds— to take one example—will add £377 million to education authorities' funds over this and the next two years. From 1997-98 to the end of the comprehensive spending review period, education authorities will have additional spending power of £379 per pupil. The Government is providing the wherewithal. That provides a good basis for co-operation to work towards common aims and objectives. I invite the Conservative party to take a constructive interest in that process and to move into the 21st century with us.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C705700", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26683, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 697.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26684, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "QuestionHeading": "Roads Review", "QuestionHeadingID": 26687, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 733.0, "DisplayOrder": 733.0, "ID": 26687, "ParentID": 26684 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "3. Mr Murray Tosh (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 734.0, "ContributionID": 705700, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it plans to give an indicative timetable for the completion of the Scottish strategic roads review and for reporting its findings to the Parliament. (S1O-93)", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it plans to give an indicative timetable for the completion of the Scottish strategic roads review and for reporting its findings to the Parliament. (S1O-93)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C705707", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26683, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 697.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26684, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "QuestionHeading": "Roads Review", "QuestionHeadingID": 26687, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 733.0, "DisplayOrder": 733.0, "ID": 26687, "ParentID": 26684 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 748.0, "ContributionID": 705707, "EditedText": "Ask a question, please.", "EditedTextHTML": "Ask a question, please.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C705710", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26683, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 697.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26684, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "QuestionHeading": "Roads Review", "QuestionHeadingID": 26687, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 733.0, "DisplayOrder": 733.0, "ID": 26687, "ParentID": 26684 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 754.0, "ContributionID": 705710, "EditedText": "That brings open question time to an end. I know that it is early days, but both questions and answers need to be a little briefer if more members are to be called.", "EditedTextHTML": "That brings open question time to an end. I know that it is early days, but both questions and answers need to be a little briefer if more members are to be called.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C705713", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Financial Issues", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26688, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 756.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 756.0, "ID": 26688, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 762.0, "ContributionID": 705713, "EditedText": "The Minister for Finance will now take questions on the issues raised in his statement. If there are sufficient questions, I will allow about 15 minutes for that, after which we will move on to the next item of business.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Minister for Finance will now take questions on the issues raised in his statement. If there are sufficient questions, I will allow about 15 minutes for that, after which we will move on to the next item of business.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C705714", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Financial Issues", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26688, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 756.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 756.0, "ID": 26688, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 764.0, "ContributionID": 705714, "EditedText": "I begin by formally congratulating Mr McConnell on his appointment. I and my party support the appointment of a Minister for Finance to the Scottish Parliament. That is a key role, which I hope Mr McConnell performs successfully. I commend the outstanding FIAG report. I also commend the aim of the minister's statement: for us to become a world leader in how we treat public financial management. It is right to pursue that goal and I await the substance of how the Government intends to deliver it.", "EditedTextHTML": "I begin by formally congratulating Mr McConnell on his appointment. I and my party support the appointment of a Minister for Finance to the Scottish Parliament. That is a key role, which I hope Mr McConnell performs successfully. I commend the outstanding FIAG report. I also commend the aim of the minister's statement: for us to become a world leader in how we treat public financial management. It is right to pursue that goal and I await the substance of how the Government intends to deliver it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C705715", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Financial Issues", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26688, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 756.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 756.0, "ID": 26688, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 766.0, "ContributionID": 705715, "EditedText": "Could you please ask a question.", "EditedTextHTML": "Could you please ask a question.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1973E119P326C705723", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Financial Issues", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26688, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 756.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 756.0, "ID": 26688, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gorrie, Donald", "ID": 1973, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Donald Gorrie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Donald Gorrie (Central Scotland) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 782.0, "ContributionID": 705723, "EditedText": "I offer Mr McConnell my best wishes in his important task. Will he give us his view on how we can ensure that the best use is made of money by the many independent organisations that use Government money—taxpayers' money—to provide their services? Such organisations include health boards, universities, local authorities, colleges, and independent voluntary organisations that provide public services. We want to enable those organisations to be independent, to develop their own policies, but we want to ensure value for money. Hitherto, I have had the feeling that public auditing has tried to ensure that money has been wasted legally. Can Mr McConnell give us an example of a more enlightened way of getting best value from those arm's-length organisations?", "EditedTextHTML": "I offer Mr McConnell my best wishes in his important task. Will he give us his view on how we can ensure that the best use is made of money by the many independent organisations that use Government money—taxpayers' money—to provide their services? Such organisations include health boards, universities, local authorities, colleges, and independent voluntary organisations that provide public services. We want to enable those organisations to be independent, to develop their own policies, but we want to ensure value for money. Hitherto, I have had the feeling that public auditing has tried to ensure that money has been wasted legally. Can Mr McConnell give us an example of a more enlightened way of getting best value from those arm's-length organisations?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C705729", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Financial Issues", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26688, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 756.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 756.0, "ID": 26688, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 794.0, "ContributionID": 705729, "EditedText": "That is not a point of order.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is not a point of order.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C705736", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "The Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26689, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 808.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 808.0, "ID": 26689, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 809.0, "ContributionID": 705736, "EditedText": "The next item of business is an Executive debate on motion S1M-68 in the name of Henry McLeish, on the economy of Scotland, and on amendments to that motion. I intend to take amendments S1M-68.1 and S1M-68.2. I draw members' attention to a typographical error in Mr David Davidson's amendment as printed in the revised daily business list. The second line should read: \"not to increase the tax and regulatory burden\".", "EditedTextHTML": "The next item of business is an Executive debate on motion S1M-68 in the name of Henry McLeish, on the economy of Scotland, and on amendments to that motion. I intend to take amendments S1M-68.1 and S1M-68.2. I draw members' attention to a typographical error in Mr David Davidson's amendment as printed in the revised daily business list. The second line should read:

\"not to increase the tax and regulatory burden\".

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C705737", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "The Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26689, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 808.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 808.0, "ID": 26689, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning (Henry McLeish): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 812.0, "ContributionID": 705737, "EditedText": "I will set out the key principles of our approach to the economy and to economic development. We will create a modern, knowledge-based economy in which enterprise can flourish. An enterprise economy is the key to generating wealth, sustaining high employment and ensuring good-quality public services. To grow new jobs and new skills, the new Scotland requires stability, investment in education, the development of new technologies, greater innovation and a business tax environment that is supportive of business development and growth. As the motion notes, we will build on Scotland's economic success by investing in jobs and skills, promoting a stable and competitive environment for enterprise, and encouraging the growth of new businesses. We intend to do that by working in partnership with business, trade unions and the rest of Britain. The new Scotland will be built within a strengthened United Kingdom. It is important to say at this point, in an overture to Mr Swinney, that we want to work with the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee. Business will look to the committee, and I want to work closely with it in the spirit of the new politics. There will be an important role for the committee in work on the Scottish economy and on higher and further education.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will set out the key principles of our approach to the economy and to economic development. We will create a modern, knowledge-based economy in which enterprise can flourish. An enterprise economy is the key to generating wealth, sustaining high employment and ensuring good-quality public services. To grow new jobs and new skills, the new Scotland requires stability, investment in education, the development of new technologies, greater innovation and a business tax environment that is supportive of business development and growth. As the motion notes, we will build on Scotland's economic success by investing in jobs and skills, promoting a stable and competitive environment for enterprise, and encouraging the growth of new businesses. We intend to do that by working in partnership with business, trade unions and the rest of Britain. The new Scotland will be built within a strengthened United Kingdom.

It is important to say at this point, in an overture to Mr Swinney, that we want to work with the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee. Business will look to the committee, and I want to work closely with it in the spirit of the new politics. There will be an important role for the committee in work on the Scottish economy and on higher and further education.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C705740", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "The Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26689, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 808.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 808.0, "ID": 26689, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 818.0, "ContributionID": 705740, "EditedText": "Earlier today, the minister commented on a number of Scottish companies that are adding greatly to Scotland's prosperity. To some extent, he boasted of them. Does he agree that most of those companies were previously trapped as nationalised companies, and that he opposed their privatisation? Those companies are now offering much to the Scottish economy and to the figures that he is using in his boasts about Scotland's current economy.", "EditedTextHTML": "Earlier today, the minister commented on a number of Scottish companies that are adding greatly to Scotland's prosperity. To some extent, he boasted of them. Does he agree that most of those companies were previously trapped as nationalised companies, and that he opposed their privatisation? Those companies are now offering much to the Scottish economy and to the figures that he is using in his boasts about Scotland's current economy.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C705752", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "The Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26689, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 808.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 808.0, "ID": 26689, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie (Lothians) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 843.0, "ContributionID": 705752, "EditedText": "I am impressed by the scope of Mr Swinney's remarks, his fine words and the language of the amendment. How does he think that that squares with the tone of this morning's debate, which was a long diatribe by SNP members against privatisation and revealed their deep-seated hostility to business in the private sector? Is it not the case that the Scottish National party speaks with forked tongue on such matters?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am impressed by the scope of Mr Swinney's remarks, his fine words and the language of the amendment. How does he think that that squares with the tone of this morning's debate, which was a long diatribe by SNP members against privatisation and revealed their deep-seated hostility to business in the private sector? Is it not the case that the Scottish National party speaks with forked tongue on such matters?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C705763", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "The Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26689, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 808.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 808.0, "ID": 26689, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Davidson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 866.0, "ContributionID": 705763, "EditedText": "If Mr Ewing had been listening to us during the election campaign, he would have heard us talk about what Mr Swinney has just been discussing. In our manifesto, we said that we were investigating schemes to relieve the rates burden on small businesses and to encourage them—and small industrial units—to move back in to and reinvigorate our town centres. We have moved on a bit from Mr Ewing's history lesson.", "EditedTextHTML": "If Mr Ewing had been listening to us during the election campaign, he would have heard us talk about what Mr Swinney has just been discussing. In our manifesto, we said that we were investigating schemes to relieve the rates burden on small businesses and to encourage them—and small industrial units—to move back in to and reinvigorate our town centres. We have moved on a bit from Mr Ewing's history lesson.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1985E207P501C705768", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "The Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26689, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 808.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 808.0, "ID": 26689, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hamilton, Mr Duncan", "ID": 1985, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Duncan Hamilton (Highlands and Islands) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 877.0, "ContributionID": 705768, "EditedText": "Surely one of the interesting aspects of this morning's debate was the repeated insistence that the SNP was short on specifics. However, this debate demonstrates the interesting comparison between the woolly and wan comments in Mr McLeish's motion and the specific, dynamic proposals in the SNP's amendment. We have detailed four key areas where we believe the Scottish economy can grow faster and further. In the three minutes that I have kindly been given, I will consider two of those key areas. Although I recognise the global context rightly set out by Mr McLeish, I think that it is right for this Parliament to pay tribute to the role of small business as the driver of growth in the Scottish economy. Perhaps small business is also the way in which we can insulate ourselves against the kind of global economic downturn that we have seen. It is a continuing fact of economics that most goods and services are produced and consumed locally, so it would seem reasonable to promote indigenous industry. We should bear in mind the fact that, because about 99 per cent of Scottish businesses employ fewer than 50 people, most of Scottish business is small business. If we promote that sector, we insulate our economy against global downturns. There has been much talk about how to promote the small business sector and I think that we are all clear on the need to reduce the rates burden on it. That is certainly the SNP's standpoint. Another important aspect, over which this Parliament perhaps does not have immediate control, is how we can make a cultural change in banking in Scotland, which has thus far been risk averse. Banks have been determined not to take any risk with small companies. That is in stark contrast to some of our—shall we say— international cousins. We should consider the example of America, where a business that starts up and fails does not get the same damning indictment as it would in this country. The belief in America is that people who have tried and failed know more about business, and their credit rating is not affected as it would be here. Perhaps we need to have a more imaginative banking structure and a more imaginative attitude. I hope that the banking sector in Scotland will become partners in the creation of the growth that we all want. Mr Swinney referred to the downturn in new businesses in Scotland over the past year. According to the most recent statistics, that downturn has been about 8.4 per cent. That suggests that we have our work cut out. I want to put my weight behind encouraging growth in indigenous small business sector. The other area that I will consider—very briefly Mr Reid, as I see your knowing nod—is that of inward investment, to which lip service if often paid. During the global downturn, inward investment was one of the few areas of the market that continued to grow year on year. The foreign direct investment market and inward investment in Scotland have been important for many years. I think that the entire chamber will join me in praising the work of Locate in Scotland. However, we can do a great deal more. The issue now is the quality of jobs that inward investment provides. We do not want to see the high-tech, low-skill jobs that we have seen so often. We want to embed high-quality jobs and learning in the economy through marketing and management and through keeping Scottish graduates in Scotland—or at least giving them the option to stay. Although we have done well on inward investment, we must do better still.", "EditedTextHTML": "Surely one of the interesting aspects of this morning's debate was the repeated insistence that the SNP was short on specifics. However, this debate demonstrates the interesting comparison between the woolly and wan comments in Mr McLeish's motion and the specific, dynamic proposals in the SNP's amendment. We have detailed four key areas where we believe the Scottish economy can grow faster and further.

In the three minutes that I have kindly been given, I will consider two of those key areas. Although I recognise the global context rightly set out by Mr McLeish, I think that it is right for this Parliament to pay tribute to the role of small business as the driver of growth in the Scottish economy. Perhaps small business is also the way in which we can insulate ourselves against the kind of global economic downturn that we have seen.

It is a continuing fact of economics that most goods and services are produced and consumed locally, so it would seem reasonable to promote indigenous industry. We should bear in mind the fact that, because about 99 per cent of Scottish businesses employ fewer than 50 people, most of Scottish business is small business. If we promote that sector, we insulate our economy against global downturns.

There has been much talk about how to promote the small business sector and I think that we are all clear on the need to reduce the rates burden on it. That is certainly the SNP's standpoint.

Another important aspect, over which this Parliament perhaps does not have immediate control, is how we can make a cultural change in banking in Scotland, which has thus far been risk averse. Banks have been determined not to take any risk with small companies. That is in stark contrast to some of our—shall we say— international cousins. We should consider the example of America, where a business that starts up and fails does not get the same damning indictment as it would in this country. The belief in America is that people who have tried and failed know more about business, and their credit rating is not affected as it would be here. Perhaps we need to have a more imaginative banking structure and a more imaginative attitude. I hope that the banking sector in Scotland will become partners in the creation of the growth that we all want.

Mr Swinney referred to the downturn in new businesses in Scotland over the past year. According to the most recent statistics, that downturn has been about 8.4 per cent. That suggests that we have our work cut out. I want to put my weight behind encouraging growth in indigenous small business sector.

The other area that I will consider—very briefly Mr Reid, as I see your knowing nod—is that of inward investment, to which lip service if often paid. During the global downturn, inward investment was one of the few areas of the market that continued to grow year on year. The foreign direct investment market and inward investment in Scotland have been important for many years. I think that the entire chamber will join me in praising the work of Locate in Scotland. However, we can do a great deal more. The issue now is the quality of jobs that inward investment provides. We do not want to see the high-tech, low-skill jobs that we have seen so often. We want to embed high-quality jobs and learning in the economy through marketing and management and through keeping Scottish graduates in Scotland—or at least giving them the option to stay. Although we have done well on inward investment, we must do better still.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C705771", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "The Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26689, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 808.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 808.0, "ID": 26689, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 883.0, "ContributionID": 705771, "EditedText": "I said end now please.", "EditedTextHTML": "I said end now please.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1985E207P501C705772", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "The Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26689, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 808.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 808.0, "ID": 26689, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hamilton, Mr Duncan", "ID": 1985, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Hamilton: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 885.0, "ContributionID": 705772, "EditedText": "Let me just finish on this point. If this Parliament has a—", "EditedTextHTML": "Let me just finish on this point. If this Parliament has a—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C705786", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "The Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26689, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 808.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 808.0, "ID": 26689, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 916.0, "ContributionID": 705786, "EditedText": "Wind up quickly, please.", "EditedTextHTML": "Wind up quickly, please.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C705796", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "The Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26689, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 808.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 808.0, "ID": 26689, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 940.0, "ContributionID": 705796, "EditedText": "I now call Nicol Stephen to wind up the debate.", "EditedTextHTML": "I now call Nicol Stephen to wind up the debate.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.545317+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1865E219P509C705802", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "The Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26689, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 808.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 808.0, "ID": 26689, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "White, Sandra", "ID": 1865, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sandra White", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Sandra White (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 953.0, "ContributionID": 705802, "EditedText": "Will Nicol Stephen give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Nicol Stephen give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.545317+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2154E194P299C705803", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "The Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26689, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 808.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 808.0, "ID": 26689, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stephen, Nicol", "ID": 2154, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Nicol Stephen", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicol Stephen: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 955.0, "ContributionID": 705803, "EditedText": "I will give way briefly, but after that I must move on.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will give way briefly, but after that I must move on.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.545317+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2154E194P299C705805", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "The Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26689, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 808.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 808.0, "ID": 26689, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stephen, Nicol", "ID": 2154, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Nicol Stephen", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicol Stephen: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 959.0, "ContributionID": 705805, "EditedText": "We need both inward investment and the growth of indigenous companies. Indeed, inward investment encourages and leads to the growth of indigenous small companies. However, I agree that we need the right sort of inward investment. In the area of enterprise perhaps more than in any other, working together in partnership—not only across the political parties, but in close association with business and industry—is crucial. We can achieve a great deal for Scotland and Scotland's economy if we take that approach. If we get it right, we will develop a strong relationship with business in Scotland, similar to that which is found in places such as Catalonia and Bavaria, where industry values and fiercely defends its local democratic institutions. There will always be areas that are outside our control. As has been mentioned, many economic measures are reserved to Westminster, but many more matters are now decided on a European and a global level that individual Governments often find difficult to understand, far less control. However, the Scottish Parliament and our new Government in Scotland can still do a huge amount. The challenge to us is to get it right—to use the considerable powers that will now be available to us to help business and to give Scotland a real competitive advantage. If we are to thrive as a nation in the next century, it will be through our knowledge, our skills and our creativity. Scotland has no ambition to compete with low-skill, low-margin, low-value, high-volume ventures. One of my great hopes is that through the development of the Scottish Parliament we will become more international in our outlook. If we want to be world class, we must benchmark with the best, wherever they may be. That is why a foundation of excellence in education is so crucial to our economic future. Traditionally, our schools and universities have had a world-class reputation, but reputation on its own is not enough: we must constantly compete if we are to be at the leading edge. We cannot be complacent. The new technologies—the digital revolution, the internet and biotechnology—are transforming our lives. Scotland already leads the field in some of those crucial areas. Dolly the sheep, for example, is a global, not a national, icon. However, we must do more. It is vital that we commercialise our research skills. That is why initiatives such as project Alba are so important and why, as Sam Galbraith said, the work of the knowledge economy task force must be given real momentum over the coming years. We must not simply encourage our young people, our universities and people in business and industry to be more innovative, more creative and more entrepreneurial. If we want to help our new businesses to become world class, all of us in this Parliament must be more innovative, creative and entrepreneurial. Together, we can play our part in creating a world-class business environment fit for the 21st century. Mr Presiding Officer, this has been a short debate, but it is only our first debate on the Scottish economy. Our handling of this issue—the development of our economy and our progress in improving competitiveness and internationalism— will be central to the success of many of this Parliament's other core policies. It will also help define the success of the Parliament itself.", "EditedTextHTML": "We need both inward investment and the growth of indigenous companies. Indeed, inward investment encourages and leads to the growth of indigenous small companies. However, I agree that we need the right sort of inward investment.

In the area of enterprise perhaps more than in any other, working together in partnership—not only across the political parties, but in close association with business and industry—is crucial. We can achieve a great deal for Scotland and Scotland's economy if we take that approach. If we get it right, we will develop a strong relationship with business in Scotland, similar to that which is found in places such as Catalonia and Bavaria, where industry values and fiercely defends its local democratic institutions.

There will always be areas that are outside our control. As has been mentioned, many economic measures are reserved to Westminster, but many more matters are now decided on a European and a global level that individual Governments often find difficult to understand, far less control. However, the Scottish Parliament and our new Government in Scotland can still do a huge amount. The challenge to us is to get it right—to use the considerable powers that will now be available to us to help business and to give Scotland a real competitive advantage.

If we are to thrive as a nation in the next century, it will be through our knowledge, our skills and our creativity. Scotland has no ambition to compete with low-skill, low-margin, low-value, high-volume ventures. One of my great hopes is that through the development of the Scottish Parliament we will become more international in our outlook. If we want to be world class, we must benchmark with the best, wherever they may be.

That is why a foundation of excellence in education is so crucial to our economic future. Traditionally, our schools and universities have had a world-class reputation, but reputation on its own is not enough: we must constantly compete if we are to be at the leading edge. We cannot be complacent. The new technologies—the digital revolution, the internet and biotechnology—are transforming our lives. Scotland already leads the field in some of those crucial areas. Dolly the sheep, for example, is a global, not a national, icon.

However, we must do more. It is vital that we commercialise our research skills. That is why initiatives such as project Alba are so important and why, as Sam Galbraith said, the work of the knowledge economy task force must be given real momentum over the coming years.

We must not simply encourage our young people, our universities and people in business and industry to be more innovative, more creative and more entrepreneurial. If we want to help our new businesses to become world class, all of us in this Parliament must be more innovative, creative and entrepreneurial. Together, we can play our part in creating a world-class business environment fit for the 21st century.

Mr Presiding Officer, this has been a short debate, but it is only our first debate on the Scottish economy. Our handling of this issue—the development of our economy and our progress in improving competitiveness and internationalism— will be central to the success of many of this Parliament's other core policies. It will also help define the success of the Parliament itself.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.545317+00:00" }, { "ID": "C705807", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26690, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 961.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 961.0, "ID": 26690, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 965.0, "ContributionID": 705807, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

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" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.545317+00:00" }, { "ID": "C705809", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26690, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 961.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 961.0, "ID": 26690, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 969.0, "ContributionID": 705809, "EditedText": "FOR Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)Mackay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)(LD)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)AGAINST Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)Crawford, Bruce JP (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Mackay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)
(LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)

AGAINST

Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Crawford, Bruce JP (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.545317+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C705810", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26690, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 961.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 961.0, "ID": 26690, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 970.0, "ContributionID": 705810, "EditedText": "The voting on that amendment is as follows: For 84, Against 36, Abstentions 0.", "EditedTextHTML": "The voting on that amendment is as follows: For 84, Against 36, Abstentions 0.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.545317+00:00" }, { "ID": "C705811", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26690, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 961.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 961.0, "ID": 26690, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 972.0, "ContributionID": 705811, "EditedText": "Amendment agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.545317+00:00" }, { "ID": "C705815", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26690, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 961.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 961.0, "ID": 26690, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 979.0, "ContributionID": 705815, "EditedText": "FOR Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)Mackay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)(LD)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)AGAINST Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)Crawford, Bruce JP (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Mackay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)
(LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)

AGAINST

Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Crawford, Bruce JP (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.545317+00:00" }, { "ID": "C705817", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26690, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 961.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 961.0, "ID": 26690, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 982.0, "ContributionID": 705817, "EditedText": "Motion, as amended, agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion, as amended, agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.545317+00:00" }, { "ID": "C705818", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26690, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 961.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 961.0, "ID": 26690, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 983.0, "ContributionID": 705818, "EditedText": "That the Parliament supports the provision of high quality health, education, transport and other public services; agrees that public/private partnerships will continue to be one of the ways used to increase innovation and investment in public services where this approach represents best value; calls on the Executive to continue to work to improve the operation of public/private partnerships and seek opportunities for new types of partnership and flexible contracts which will allow assets, when appropriate, to revert to public ownership, and recognises its use in delivering high quality public services while protecting the interests of the community as indicated in the Partnership for Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament supports the provision of high quality health, education, transport and other public services; agrees that public/private partnerships will continue to be one of the ways used to increase innovation and investment in public services where this approach represents best value; calls on the Executive to continue to work to improve the operation of public/private partnerships and seek opportunities for new types of partnership and flexible contracts which will allow assets, when appropriate, to revert to public ownership, and recognises its use in delivering high quality public services while protecting the interests of the community as indicated in the Partnership for Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.545317+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C705819", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26690, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 961.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 961.0, "ID": 26690, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 984.0, "ContributionID": 705819, "EditedText": "The third question is, that amendment S1M-68.1, in the name of Mr John Swinney, which proposes an amendment to motion S1M-68, in the name of Henry McLeish, on the economy of Scotland, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "The third question is, that amendment S1M-68.1, in the name of Mr John Swinney, which proposes an amendment to motion S1M-68, in the name of Henry McLeish, on the economy of Scotland, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.545317+00:00" }, { "ID": "C705822", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26690, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 961.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 961.0, "ID": 26690, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 990.0, "ContributionID": 705822, "EditedText": "FOR Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Crawford, Bruce JP (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)AGAINST Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)Mackay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)(LD)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)ABSTENTIONHarper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce JP (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)

AGAINST

Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Mackay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)
(LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)

ABSTENTION

Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.545317+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C705823", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26690, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 961.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 961.0, "ID": 26690, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 991.0, "ContributionID": 705823, "EditedText": "The result of that vote is as follows: For 49, Against 71, Abstentions 1.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result of that vote is as follows: For 49, Against 71, Abstentions 1.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.545317+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C705828", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26690, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 961.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 961.0, "ID": 26690, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bruce Crawford (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1000.0, "ContributionID": 705828, "EditedText": "On a point of order, Mr Presiding Officer. You said that members should vote yes in favour of the amendment but did not give us other options—I presume that the other options are still available to us. Laughter.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order, Mr Presiding Officer. You said that members should vote yes in favour of the amendment but did not give us other options—I presume that the other options are still available to us. [Laughter.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C705836", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26690, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 961.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 961.0, "ID": 26690, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1014.0, "ContributionID": 705836, "EditedText": "I hear an occasional very feeble no on the left. There will be a division. The question is, that motion S1M-68, in the name of Henry McLeish, be agreed to. Members should vote yes to agree to the motion now.", "EditedTextHTML": "I hear an occasional very feeble no on the left. There will be a division.

The question is, that motion S1M-68, in the name of Henry McLeish, be agreed to. Members should vote yes to agree to the motion now.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "C705839", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26690, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 961.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 961.0, "ID": 26690, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1019.0, "ContributionID": 705839, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "C705841", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26690, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 961.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 961.0, "ID": 26690, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1021.0, "ContributionID": 705841, "EditedText": "Meeting closed at 17:08.", "EditedTextHTML": "Meeting closed at 17:08.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C705749", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "The Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26689, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 808.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 808.0, "ID": 26689, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 837.0, "ContributionID": 705749, "EditedText": "I am grateful to Mr McLeish for allowing me to make an intervention during his speech, as it let me place on record the involvement of the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee. For the remainder of my speech, I will speak in my capacity as Mr McLeish's shadow. There is a whiff of complacency in the text of Mr McLeish's motion. In his 1996 budget speech, Kenneth Clarke boasted about falling unemployment figures and said that they were an indication of the Conservative Government's success. He was challenged by the then Leader of the Opposition—the current Prime Minister—who made various criticisms of what the Government had said which were based on other economic indicators. I find myself in much the same position. There has undoubtedly been a fall in unemployment. However, if Mr McLeish were to get out of his ministerial car in the Shettleston area of Glasgow, he would find male unemployment at 16.7 per cent. That situation is disguised by the motion that we are debating today. Unemployment in Scotland has fallen, but only to the levels that we had at the tail end of 1997. In 1998, unemployment rose, relatively speaking, because of a number of factors. We must acknowledge the difficulties that that has created for people. We are not yet back to the level of employment that we had a year ago. The Government must present Parliament with more comprehensive measures to deal with unemployment. I should like to highlight other economic indicators. The number of new businesses created and operated in Scotland declined in 1998 from the figure in 1997. We await the performance of that indicator with interest because the number of business failures in 1998-99—more than 16 per cent—was worrying. The stability of the business sector has to be addressed by Government policy. Many reports, such as the Fraser of Allander Institute report that was published today and to which the minister referred, comment on the Scottish economy. The Royal Bank of Scotland, in its June monthly assessment of the Scottish economy, said that it expected the Scottish economy to grow more slowly that that of the rest of the United Kingdom. Although I accept that it is important for this Parliament to conduct this debate on its own measures, we must look at the performance of the Scottish economy in relation to other economic units and determine how we can differentiate the economic performance of Scotland from that of other units to intensify the rate of growth of the Scottish economy. None of us can be proud of the rate of growth that we have experienced until now. In recent years, particularly since the general election, one of the most compelling factors in the economic performance of Scotland has been high interest rates. They have come down recently, which has made a major difference, but they were an enormous burden throughout 1997 and 1998 and undermined the competitiveness of many companies. The Scottish Council Development and Industry said that \"the high level of the Sterling exchange rate is damaging the Scottish economy's manufacturing base.\" We ignore the strength of sterling at our peril.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful to Mr McLeish for allowing me to make an intervention during his speech, as it let me place on record the involvement of the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee. For the remainder of my speech, I will speak in my capacity as Mr McLeish's shadow.

There is a whiff of complacency in the text of Mr McLeish's motion. In his 1996 budget speech, Kenneth Clarke boasted about falling unemployment figures and said that they were an indication of the Conservative Government's success. He was challenged by the then Leader of the Opposition—the current Prime Minister—who made various criticisms of what the Government had said which were based on other economic indicators. I find myself in much the same position.

There has undoubtedly been a fall in unemployment. However, if Mr McLeish were to get out of his ministerial car in the Shettleston area of Glasgow, he would find male unemployment at

16.7 per cent. That situation is disguised by the motion that we are debating today. Unemployment in Scotland has fallen, but only to the levels that we had at the tail end of 1997. In 1998, unemployment rose, relatively speaking, because of a number of factors. We must acknowledge the difficulties that that has created for people. We are not yet back to the level of employment that we had a year ago. The Government must present Parliament with more comprehensive measures to deal with unemployment. I should like to highlight other economic indicators. The number of new businesses created and operated in Scotland declined in 1998 from the figure in 1997. We await the performance of that indicator with interest because the number of business failures in 1998-99—more than 16 per cent—was worrying. The stability of the business sector has to be addressed by Government policy.

Many reports, such as the Fraser of Allander Institute report that was published today and to which the minister referred, comment on the Scottish economy. The Royal Bank of Scotland, in its June monthly assessment of the Scottish economy, said that it expected the Scottish economy to grow more slowly that that of the rest of the United Kingdom. Although I accept that it is important for this Parliament to conduct this debate on its own measures, we must look at the performance of the Scottish economy in relation to other economic units and determine how we can differentiate the economic performance of Scotland from that of other units to intensify the rate of growth of the Scottish economy. None of us can be proud of the rate of growth that we have experienced until now.

In recent years, particularly since the general election, one of the most compelling factors in the economic performance of Scotland has been high

interest rates. They have come down recently, which has made a major difference, but they were an enormous burden throughout 1997 and 1998 and undermined the competitiveness of many companies.

The Scottish Council Development and Industry said that

\"the high level of the Sterling exchange rate is damaging the Scottish economy's manufacturing base.\"

We ignore the strength of sterling at our peril.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:30:29.7611592+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C705753", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "The Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26689, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 808.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 808.0, "ID": 26689, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 845.0, "ContributionID": 705753, "EditedText": "I am happy to endorse everything that my colleagues said this morning. They were talking about the sell-off of public services and I have never advocated—and never will advocate— the selling-off of public services carried out by the previous Government and by this Administration. It is important that we deliver competitive conditions for Scottish companies. We have a long track record; my colleague, Mr Ewing—who I hope will speak later on—has fought many valuable battles for the small business sector in Scotland and has delivered real progress. We are tripping over economic development agencies in Scotland. I hope that the minister will tell us the attitude that the Government is taking towards refocusing and refining the number of agencies that are cluttering the delivery of economic development services in Scotland. We want to advance the arguments that we made in the election campaign for the drawing together of tourism, inward investment, export development and support for indigenous companies into a sharply focused economic development agency that addresses the needs of companies in Scotland. We recognise the Government's commitment to tackling the problem of youth unemployment, but it is time that it started to come up with evidence of the long-term structural change that is being delivered by the new deal. It is difficult to find any evidence of that in the Scottish economy or to find companies that can say what pattern has been delivered.Finally, on the issue of competitive advantage, we must examine all our measures carefully. That is why I encourage the Government to look at tackling the issue of higher business rates for smaller companies. That would give our small companies a competitive advantage. Like everyone else in the chamber, we have high aspirations and ambitions for the Scottish economy and we want to promote ideas and initiatives to achieve them. However, members must recognise that there are some problems in the Scottish economy—problems that are not stressed in the Government motion—which must be addressed by the Parliament. I move, as an amendment to motion S1M-68, leave out from \"is falling\" to end and insert— \"remains a grave and on-going economic and social problem which is not addressed by a partial representation of statistics; and calls on the Executive to develop an economic strategy that has long term sustainable growth in the economy and jobs as its focus and addresses the need to— (a) recognise small businesses as the engine of growth in the economy and the labour market and tackles the need to improve entrepreneurship and business start-up, survival and expansion with particular emphasis on reducing business rates; (b) develop cohesive economic development structures through greater synergy between agencies involved in economic development, inward investment, exporting and tourism and to gain maximum benefit from Scotland's external representation; (c) produce compelling evidence that the New Deal is delivering long-term structural change in the labour market that will be sustained when the New Deal programme has concluded, and (d) generate competitive advantage for companies in Scotland.\" The Deputy Presiding Officer: I call Mr David Davidson to speak on and move amendment S1M-68.2.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am happy to endorse everything that my colleagues said this morning. They were talking about the sell-off of public services and I have never advocated—and never will advocate— the selling-off of public services carried out by the previous Government and by this Administration.

It is important that we deliver competitive conditions for Scottish companies. We have a long track record; my colleague, Mr Ewing—who I hope will speak later on—has fought many valuable battles for the small business sector in Scotland and has delivered real progress.

We are tripping over economic development agencies in Scotland. I hope that the minister will tell us the attitude that the Government is taking towards refocusing and refining the number of agencies that are cluttering the delivery of economic development services in Scotland. We want to advance the arguments that we made in the election campaign for the drawing together of tourism, inward investment, export development and support for indigenous companies into a sharply focused economic development agency that addresses the needs of companies in Scotland.

We recognise the Government's commitment to tackling the problem of youth unemployment, but it is time that it started to come up with evidence of the long-term structural change that is being delivered by the new deal. It is difficult to find any evidence of that in the Scottish economy or to find companies that can say what pattern has been

delivered.

Finally, on the issue of competitive advantage, we must examine all our measures carefully. That is why I encourage the Government to look at tackling the issue of higher business rates for smaller companies. That would give our small companies a competitive advantage.

Like everyone else in the chamber, we have high aspirations and ambitions for the Scottish economy and we want to promote ideas and initiatives to achieve them. However, members must recognise that there are some problems in the Scottish economy—problems that are not stressed in the Government motion—which must be addressed by the Parliament.

I move, as an amendment to motion S1M-68, leave out from \"is falling\" to end and insert—

\"remains a grave and on-going economic and social problem which is not addressed by a partial representation of statistics; and calls on the Executive to develop an economic strategy that has long term sustainable growth in the economy and jobs as its focus and addresses the need to— (a) recognise small businesses as the engine of growth in the economy and the labour market and tackles the need to improve entrepreneurship and business start-up, survival and expansion with particular emphasis on reducing business rates; (b) develop cohesive economic development structures through greater synergy between agencies involved in economic development, inward investment, exporting and tourism and to gain maximum benefit from Scotland's external representation; (c) produce compelling evidence that the New Deal is delivering long-term structural change in the labour market that will be sustained when the New Deal programme has concluded, and (d) generate competitive advantage for companies in Scotland.\" The Deputy Presiding Officer: I call Mr David Davidson to speak on and move amendment S1M-68.2.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:30:29.7611592+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2110E214P424C705451", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gibson, Kenneth", "ID": 2110, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenneth Gibson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Gibson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 194.0, "ContributionID": 705451, "EditedText": "I am just about to finish. We have had seven years of this, Frank, and we will have plenty more opportunities over the next four. I have a word of warning to those who vote for PFI today. The people of Scotland have demonstrated time after time that they will have no truck with the privatisation of public services. We will ensure that every member who votes in favour of PFI today will be reminded of that on every hustings and at every public meeting, from Airdrie and Shotts to Cunninghame South and every village in between.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am just about to finish. We have had seven years of this, Frank, and we will have plenty more opportunities over the next four.

I have a word of warning to those who vote for PFI today. The people of Scotland have demonstrated time after time that they will have no truck with the privatisation of public services. We will ensure that every member who votes in favour of PFI today will be reminded of that on every hustings and at every public meeting, from Airdrie and Shotts to Cunninghame South and every village in between.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:24:23.7026612+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C705685", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26683, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 697.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26684, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "QuestionHeading": "Economy", "QuestionHeadingID": 26685, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 701.0, "DisplayOrder": 701.0, "ID": 26685, "ParentID": 26684 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "1. Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 702.0, "ContributionID": 705685, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive to outline its plans for economic development and employment creation in Scotland. (S1O-91)", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive to outline its plans for economic development and employment creation in Scotland. (S1O-91)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:28:33.8639665+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C705687", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26683, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 697.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26684, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "QuestionHeading": "Economy", "QuestionHeadingID": 26685, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 701.0, "DisplayOrder": 701.0, "ID": 26685, "ParentID": 26684 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 706.0, "ContributionID": 705687, "EditedText": "I thank the minister for that reply. Will he agree that Scottish Widows is particularly important to the Scottish economy?", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the minister for that reply. Will he agree that Scottish Widows is particularly important to the Scottish economy?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:28:33.8639665+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C705689", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26683, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 697.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26684, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "QuestionHeading": "Economy", "QuestionHeadingID": 26685, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 701.0, "DisplayOrder": 701.0, "ID": 26685, "ParentID": 26684 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 710.0, "ContributionID": 705689, "EditedText": "In recognising that the board of Scottish Widows is now a subsidiary board of Lloyds TSB Group and that control over decision making at Scottish Widows has been lost to Scotland, does Mr McLeish propose to take any action in line with the speech that the First Minister delivered at the Scottish Council Development and Industry annual conference last March? He said: \"Government should certainly be prepared to act within its powers if we find ourselves at risk of losing the headquarters of a company that is particularly important to the Scottish economy.\" Mr McLeish accepted that Scottish Widows is\"particularly important to the Scottish economy.\"What has happened to Scottish Widows in the past 24 hours is exactly the same as happened to General Accident, which prompted the First Minister's remarks last March. Was the First Minister right last March or is he right today?", "EditedTextHTML": "In recognising that the board of Scottish Widows is now a subsidiary board of Lloyds TSB Group and that control over decision making at Scottish Widows has been lost to Scotland, does Mr McLeish propose to take any action in line with the speech that the First Minister delivered at the Scottish Council Development and Industry annual conference last March? He said:

\"Government should certainly be prepared to act within its powers if we find ourselves at risk of losing the headquarters of a company that is particularly important to the Scottish economy.\"

Mr McLeish accepted that Scottish Widows is

\"particularly important to the Scottish economy.\"

What has happened to Scottish Widows in the past 24 hours is exactly the same as happened to General Accident, which prompted the First Minister's remarks last March. Was the First Minister right last March or is he right today?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:28:33.8639665+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C705617", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26661, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 531.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26662, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 534.0, "QuestionHeading": "Small Businesses", "QuestionHeadingID": 26664, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 544.0, "DisplayOrder": 544.0, "ID": 26664, "ParentID": 26662 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "2. Fergus Ewing (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 545.0, "ContributionID": 705617, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it intends to introduce measures to assist smaller business premises in relation to the impact of the non-domestic rates revaluation to take effect from 1 April 2000. (S1O-75) The Minister for Finance (Mr Jack McConnell): The outcome of the revaluation, which should be fiscally neutral, will not be known for many months. Decisions on any form of special assistance will be made at that stage.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it intends to introduce measures to assist smaller business premises in relation to the impact of the non-domestic rates revaluation to take effect from 1 April 2000. (S1O-75) The Minister for Finance (Mr Jack McConnell): The outcome of the revaluation, which should be fiscally neutral, will not be known for many months. Decisions on any form of special assistance will be made at that stage.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:01:03.9549326+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1870E181P475C705360", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Thursday 24 June 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26658, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26658, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robison, Shona", "ID": 1870, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Shona Robison", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Shona Robison (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 5.0, "ContributionID": 705360, "EditedText": "I am not aware that I have received an answer. Do you know how it was communicated, Sir David?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am not aware that I have received an answer. Do you know how it was communicated, Sir David?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:00:52.6390172+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1870E181P475C705362", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Thursday 24 June 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26658, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26658, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robison, Shona", "ID": 1870, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Shona Robison", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Shona Robison: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 9.0, "ContributionID": 705362, "EditedText": "I have checked my mail, but I will double-check; as far as I am aware, it has not arrived yet.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have checked my mail, but I will double-check; as far as I am aware, it has not arrived yet.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:00:52.6390172+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C705795", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "The Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26689, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 808.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 808.0, "ID": 26689, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fergus Ewing (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 938.0, "ContributionID": 705795, "EditedText": "There are 1,629 unemployed people in my constituency. That is about eight or nine times the number of people here today. People come in units of one; the task that we face is what can we do to make a difference for the better. So far, we have heard only one proposal in the Government's programme that will make a difference—a difference for the worse—and that is the toll tax. I was encouraged by the minister's positive tone earlier on, but I wonder whether he will take the advice of the pathfinder document to which he referred, particularly the section that the retail sector submitted. It states: \"Road pricing: the sector does not relish the idea of a road toll tax imposition that has the net effect of forcing lorries off motorways onto rural roads and through towns in order to save transport costs.\" That is an excellent proposal. I recommend that the minister takes it up, as I believe he suggested, and that he now follows the advice to ditch the toll tax. SNP members want to make—and have made—some constructive suggestions. It is much easier for a Government to do harm than good, easier for it to create unemployment and make things worse than magic new employment out of the air. I will mention, briefly, five barriers to increasing economic success in Scotland. On the burden of business rates, will the minister involve the Federation of Small Businesses and all other small businesses organisations in the revaluation process rather than leave contact with them until after the result has been completed? If he does not involve them, I believe that we will get the wrong results, as we did last time. I hope that he will consider banding, net asset value, transitional relief or a combination of those measures. Will the Executive lift the weight of bureaucracy? In the Highlands, it is virtually impossible to have development off any trunk routes because of the design restrictions that are imposed by the Scottish Office. Will the minister make a specific commitment to review that? I could mention many constituency cases had I the time to do so. On late payment, will we explore the possibility of reducing the subby-bashing problem by mandating payment directly from the client to the sub-contractor so that the sub-contractor does not face sequestration or liquidation? It is an option that is perfectly possible, so let us consider it. I hope that the ministerial team will. On access to capital, will the minister restore the small business development loan scheme that mysteriously disappeared without any proper explanation or announcement from Westminster about why it should end? Finally, will the minister give the electronic sector the value of fifth freedoms, which Alex Salmond mentioned earlier in the Parliament's deliberations? Many of the more serious problems that affect the Scottish economy are within Westminster's power. Does any member think that the highest fuel tax in Europe is anything but an unbearable burden? I believe that that burden is forcing many hauliers out of business. Mr Tosh mentioned the energy tax. Arjo Wiggins has written to me stating that the paper sector in Britain will have used up two thirds of its profits to pay for the energy tax. That is bound to lead to job losses. Nothing has happened for more than 18 months, although Mr McLeish mentioned that consultation was going on. This is a vital matter for my constituency, for the Highlands and for Scotland. While the SNP welcomes—and will always welcome—the taste of home rule and national self-determination that we have today, we do not have home rule in Scotland; we have home rule and away rule, and it is the away team that is the problem, so what will be done about it?", "EditedTextHTML": "There are 1,629 unemployed people in my constituency. That is about eight or nine times the number of people here today. People come in units of one; the task that we face is what can we do to make a difference for the better. So far, we have heard only one proposal in the Government's programme that will make a difference—a difference for the worse—and that is the toll tax.

I was encouraged by the minister's positive tone earlier on, but I wonder whether he will take the advice of the pathfinder document to which he referred, particularly the section that the retail sector submitted. It states:

\"Road pricing: the sector does not relish the idea of a road toll tax imposition that has the net effect of forcing lorries off motorways onto rural roads and through towns in order to save transport costs.\"

That is an excellent proposal. I recommend that the minister takes it up, as I believe he suggested, and that he now follows the advice to ditch the toll tax.

SNP members want to make—and have made—some constructive suggestions. It is much easier for a Government to do harm than good, easier for it to create unemployment and make things worse than magic new employment out of the air. I will mention, briefly, five barriers to increasing economic success in Scotland.

On the burden of business rates, will the minister involve the Federation of Small Businesses and all other small businesses organisations in the revaluation process rather than leave contact with them until after the result has been completed? If he does not involve them, I believe that we will get the wrong results, as we did last time. I hope that he will consider banding, net asset value, transitional relief or a combination of those measures.

Will the Executive lift the weight of bureaucracy? In the Highlands, it is virtually impossible to have development off any trunk routes because of the design restrictions that are imposed by the Scottish Office. Will the minister make a specific commitment to review that? I could mention many constituency cases had I the time to do so.

On late payment, will we explore the possibility of reducing the subby-bashing problem by mandating payment directly from the client to the sub-contractor so that the sub-contractor does not face sequestration or liquidation? It is an option that is perfectly possible, so let us consider it. I hope that the ministerial team will.

On access to capital, will the minister restore the small business development loan scheme that mysteriously disappeared without any proper explanation or announcement from Westminster about why it should end?

Finally, will the minister give the electronic sector the value of fifth freedoms, which Alex Salmond mentioned earlier in the Parliament's deliberations?

Many of the more serious problems that affect the Scottish economy are within Westminster's power. Does any member think that the highest fuel tax in Europe is anything but an unbearable burden? I believe that that burden is forcing many hauliers out of business.

Mr Tosh mentioned the energy tax. Arjo Wiggins has written to me stating that the paper sector in Britain will have used up two thirds of its profits to

pay for the energy tax. That is bound to lead to job losses. Nothing has happened for more than 18 months, although Mr McLeish mentioned that consultation was going on. This is a vital matter for my constituency, for the Highlands and for Scotland.

While the SNP welcomes—and will always welcome—the taste of home rule and national self-determination that we have today, we do not have home rule in Scotland; we have home rule and away rule, and it is the away team that is the problem, so what will be done about it?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:01:17.555696+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C705372", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 31.0, "ContributionID": 705372, "EditedText": "Certainly.", "EditedTextHTML": "Certainly.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:00:39.6991441+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C705657", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26661, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 531.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26662, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 534.0, "QuestionHeading": "Tolls", "QuestionHeadingID": 26674, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 630.0, "DisplayOrder": 630.0, "ID": 26674, "ParentID": 26662 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 635.0, "ContributionID": 705657, "EditedText": "We are still paying tolls because we are still paying for the costs of the bridges. The partnership agreement commits us to freezing tolls at 1999 levels and to examine the impact of the discounted schemes that are in operation. At the moment, discounted tickets are used for one journey in two and by nine out of 10 buses and lorries. During the winter, discounted tickets are used for seven out of 10 passenger journeys in cars.", "EditedTextHTML": "We are still paying tolls because we are still paying for the costs of the bridges. The partnership agreement commits us to freezing tolls at 1999 levels and to examine the impact of the discounted schemes that are in operation. At the moment, discounted tickets are used for one journey in two and by nine out of 10 buses and lorries. During the winter, discounted tickets are used for seven out of 10 passenger journeys in cars.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:13.3570755+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C705701", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26683, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 697.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26684, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "QuestionHeading": "Roads Review", "QuestionHeadingID": 26687, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 733.0, "DisplayOrder": 733.0, "ID": 26687, "ParentID": 26684 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment (Sarah Boyack): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 736.0, "ContributionID": 705701, "EditedText": "We are taking stock of this major review and considering the role of such roads in our integrated and sustainable approach to transport. We expect to report to Parliament after the summer recess.", "EditedTextHTML": "We are taking stock of this major review and considering the role of such roads in our integrated and sustainable approach to transport. We expect to report to Parliament after the summer recess.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:13.3570755+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C705703", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26683, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 697.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26684, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "QuestionHeading": "Roads Review", "QuestionHeadingID": 26687, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 733.0, "DisplayOrder": 733.0, "ID": 26687, "ParentID": 26684 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 740.0, "ContributionID": 705703, "EditedText": "I acknowledge the importance of the strategic trunk roads network to businesses and communities. It is important that trunk roads are used effectively and that goods can be transported around the country in good time. We need to consider ways in which to improve the effectiveness of that network. The Government has put in money, through the comprehensive spending review, to ensure that we can maintain the roads network effectively and to the proper standard, and to examine a range of measures such as taking freight off roads and encouraging it on to rail. That will ensure that we make the most use of our strategic trunk roads network and that it works for business as well as it does for individuals.", "EditedTextHTML": "I acknowledge the importance of the strategic trunk roads network to businesses and communities. It is important that trunk roads are used effectively and that goods can be transported around the country in good time. We need to consider ways in which to improve the effectiveness of that network. The Government has put in money, through the comprehensive spending review, to ensure that we can maintain the roads network effectively and to the proper standard, and to examine a range of measures such as taking freight off roads and encouraging it on to rail. That will ensure that we make the most

use of our strategic trunk roads network and that it works for business as well as it does for individuals.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:13.3570755+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C705705", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26683, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 697.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26684, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "QuestionHeading": "Roads Review", "QuestionHeadingID": 26687, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 733.0, "DisplayOrder": 733.0, "ID": 26687, "ParentID": 26684 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 744.0, "ContributionID": 705705, "EditedText": "I am happy to agree. We need to take a broad look at the role of the roads network and how it fits into our integrated transport strategy. Safety issues, environmental issues, access issues, integration with the rest of the network and economic development are all important. The strategic roads review will consider those key things to ensure that we do not have a wish list of roads, but a sensible approach so that we can prioritise effectively for the good of the country.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am happy to agree. We need to take a broad look at the role of the roads network and how it fits into our integrated transport strategy. Safety issues, environmental issues, access issues, integration with the rest of the network and economic development are all important. The strategic roads review will consider those key things to ensure that we do not have a wish list of roads, but a sensible approach so that we can prioritise effectively for the good of the country.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:13.3570755+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1756E184P464C705553", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Grahame, Christine", "ID": 1756, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Christine Grahame", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Christine Grahame: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 411.0, "ContributionID": 705553, "EditedText": "I will do. I am coming to that, if Mary Scanlon will oblige me. I had not been in a hospital for 40 years and realised what the royal infirmary's difficulties are. I fully accept and am sympathetic to the bill. The difficulty is that the new infirmary should not be built at any cost to the Scottish public. We have thoroughly examined the matter of PFI. It is a disgraceful way to finance public services and buildings, and I am astonished at some of the contributions from the likes of John McAllion. I will not requote the quote that has come back to haunt him, but will mention my Labour opponent in the Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale constituency, George McGregor. Speaking as a Unison representative, he said: \"The Edinburgh Royal Infirmary will cost the taxpayer 1.5 billion pounds to fund a hospital which in cost is 190 million pounds. For us, we say that PFI is about getting a mortgage with a loan shark.\" Poor George. How that hung like an albatross round his neck during the debates in Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale. He did not support PFI, and I know that many on the Labour benches are very unhappy about it. When I sit in this chamber and hear Conservatives congratulating Labour congratulating the Liberal Democrats, I feel that I am in a surreal stage setting. It is time that the matter was revisited. The SNP proposal is a very good one, the financial aspects of which—like Margaret Smith, I am not an economist—will be developed by Andrew Wilson. I commend the motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will do. I am coming to that, if Mary Scanlon will oblige me.

I had not been in a hospital for 40 years and realised what the royal infirmary's difficulties are. I fully accept and am sympathetic to the bill. The difficulty is that the new infirmary should not be built at any cost to the Scottish public.

We have thoroughly examined the matter of PFI. It is a disgraceful way to finance public services and buildings, and I am astonished at some of the contributions from the likes of John McAllion. I will not requote the quote that has come back to haunt him, but will mention my Labour opponent in the Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale constituency, George McGregor. Speaking as a Unison representative, he said:

\"The Edinburgh Royal Infirmary will cost the taxpayer 1.5 billion pounds to fund a hospital which in cost is 190 million pounds. For us, we say that PFI is about getting a mortgage with a loan shark.\"

Poor George. How that hung like an albatross round his neck during the debates in Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale. He did not support PFI, and I know that many on the Labour benches are very unhappy about it. When I sit in this chamber and hear Conservatives congratulating Labour congratulating the Liberal Democrats, I feel that I am in a surreal stage setting.

It is time that the matter was revisited. The SNP proposal is a very good one, the financial aspects of which—like Margaret Smith, I am not an economist—will be developed by Andrew Wilson. I commend the motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:01:23.8313068+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1773E197P503C705561", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hyslop, Fiona", "ID": 1773, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona Hyslop", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona Hyslop: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 428.0, "ContributionID": 705561, "EditedText": "Will Mr Tosh give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr Tosh give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:01:23.8313068+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2180E179P471C705641", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26661, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 531.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26662, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 534.0, "QuestionHeading": "Fishing (Safety)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26670, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 592.0, "DisplayOrder": 592.0, "ID": 26670, "ParentID": 26662 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lochhead, Richard", "ID": 2180, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Lochhead", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Richard Lochhead: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 599.0, "ContributionID": 705641, "EditedText": "I put it to the minister that, as the scheme is having a shake-up, this is an opportune time for the Scottish Executive to take responsibility both for funding the scheme and for administering it in Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "I put it to the minister that, as the scheme is having a shake-up, this is an opportune time for the Scottish Executive to take responsibility both for funding the scheme and for administering it in Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:55.929179+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1773E197P503C705636", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26661, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 531.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26662, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 534.0, "QuestionHeading": "Housing (People with Disabilities)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26669, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 581.0, "DisplayOrder": 581.0, "ID": 26669, "ParentID": 26662 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hyslop, Fiona", "ID": 1773, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona Hyslop", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona Hyslop: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 588.0, "ContributionID": 705636, "EditedText": "In the absence of a housing bill, does the minister think it appropriate that the matter be considered as part of the incapable adults bill?", "EditedTextHTML": "In the absence of a housing bill, does the minister think it appropriate that the matter be considered as part of the incapable adults bill?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:01:31.7066757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1773E197P503C705742", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "The Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26689, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 808.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 808.0, "ID": 26689, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hyslop, Fiona", "ID": 1773, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona Hyslop", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona Hyslop (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 822.0, "ContributionID": 705742, "EditedText": "As someone who represents the Lothians, I listened with great interest to what Mr McLeish said about Lloyds TSB and Scottish Widows. It would be helpful for the staff employed by those companies—many of whom live in my constituency—if he could tell us whether there has been any guarantee of long- term employment, particularly from Lloyds TSB, which has said that it is still hungry for further takeovers.", "EditedTextHTML": "As someone who represents the Lothians, I listened with great interest to what Mr McLeish said about Lloyds TSB and Scottish Widows. It would be helpful for the staff employed by those companies—many of

whom live in my constituency—if he could tell us whether there has been any guarantee of long- term employment, particularly from Lloyds TSB, which has said that it is still hungry for further takeovers.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:01:31.7066757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C705459", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 211.0, "ContributionID": 705459, "EditedText": "It is about time that we injected some reality into the rantings of Mr Raffan. I ask him to comment on two quotations. The first is from the Liberal Democrat manifesto, which promised that it would \"replace the expensive and inefficient PFI agreements\".The second quotation was said by a Liberal Democrat spokesman in April this year: \"The party is attracted by the SNP's plans for replacing PFI with public service trusts.\" Perhaps Mr Raffan should consider his party's statements before the election and his party's actions in the chamber before he criticises others.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is about time that we injected some reality into the rantings of Mr Raffan. I ask him to comment on two quotations. The first is from the Liberal Democrat manifesto, which promised that it would

\"replace the expensive and inefficient PFI agreements\".

The second quotation was said by a Liberal Democrat spokesman in April this year:

\"The party is attracted by the SNP's plans for replacing PFI with public service trusts.\"

Perhaps Mr Raffan should consider his party's statements before the election and his party's actions in the chamber before he criticises others.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:00:50.3207435+00:00" }, { "ID": "C705358", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Thursday 24 June 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26658, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26658, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 2.0, "ContributionID": 705358, "EditedText": "THE PRESIDING OFFICER opened the meeting at 09:30", "EditedTextHTML": "[THE PRESIDING OFFICER opened the meeting at 09:30]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4828182+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C705361", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Thursday 24 June 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26658, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26658, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 7.0, "ContributionID": 705361, "EditedText": "In the normal manner, I dare say, but I was assured that the answer had been given yesterday.", "EditedTextHTML": "In the normal manner, I dare say, but I was assured that the answer had been given yesterday.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4828182+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C705365", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell (South of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 16.0, "ContributionID": 705365, "EditedText": "On a point of order, Mr Presiding Officer. I have raised the matter of the procedure for Opposition day debates with you before. There has been discussion about whether we should follow the Westminster precedent of the Executive winding up and having the last word in each debate, or whether we should apply a different rule, similar to that applied in local authorities and elsewhere in such circumstances. I understand that you have ruled today that the Executive should close the debate, but I ask you to consider how we could examine the matter at greater length and come to a conclusion. Will you assure us that today's decision is not a precedent for Opposition day debates—of which this is the first—but merely a convenience at this stage?", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order, Mr Presiding Officer. I have raised the matter of the procedure for Opposition day debates with you before. There has been discussion about whether we should follow the Westminster precedent of the Executive winding up and having the last word in each debate, or whether we should apply a different rule, similar to that applied in local authorities and elsewhere in such circumstances.

I understand that you have ruled today that the Executive should close the debate, but I ask you to consider how we could examine the matter at greater length and come to a conclusion. Will you assure us that today's decision is not a precedent for Opposition day debates—of which this is the first—but merely a convenience at this stage?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4828182+00:00" }, { "ID": "C705373", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 33.0, "ContributionID": 705373, "EditedText": "Rescue.", "EditedTextHTML": "Rescue.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4828182+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C705374", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bruce Crawford: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 35.0, "ContributionID": 705374, "EditedText": "When members settle down,perhaps we will get around to some common sense here. The SNP ensured that Perth and Kinross Council always delivered a process under which its citizens got value for money. MEMBERS: \"This is a speech.\" This is an answer to a question and an interjection at the same time.", "EditedTextHTML": "When members settle down,

perhaps we will get around to some common sense here.

The SNP ensured that Perth and Kinross Council always delivered a process under which its citizens got value for money. [MEMBERS: \"This is a speech.\"] This is an answer to a question and an interjection at the same time.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4828182+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C705383", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Finance (Mr Jack McConnell): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 54.0, "ContributionID": 705383, "EditedText": "I start by thanking Nicola, who showed the modesty of Frank McAveety in describing her speech, for the opportunity to reaffirm our plans for modernising public services. I was disappointed to hear that Mr Russell believes that we should adopt the procedures of local government rather than a national Parliament. We will have to agree to disagree on that point. Public services are central to our purpose in this Parliament and to our values. We have no interest in doing harm to public services. Our partnership is founded on strengthening and expanding vital services that impact on the lives of ordinary Scots every day: new hospital developments; new and refurbished schools; standards in education; integrated public transport; and the construction of new and renovation of existing houses. Those are all public services that have been improved by this Parliament. This is not about privatisation. We are creating and supporting partnerships between the public and private sectors to achieve high-quality investment in public services. We are committed to delivering, and are delivering, new skills for Scottish children and hospitals for those who need medical care. We say, openly and clearly, that where services will be better, where costs will be low, and where staff will be protected, we will create public-private partnerships. We are committed to continuing with those partnerships, but we are also committed to innovation and flexibility, and to reviewing how the partnerships work in the interests of people and communities.", "EditedTextHTML": "I start by thanking Nicola, who showed the modesty of Frank McAveety in describing her speech, for the opportunity to reaffirm our plans for modernising public services. I was disappointed to hear that Mr Russell believes that we should adopt the procedures of local government rather than a national Parliament. We will have to agree to disagree on that point.

Public services are central to our purpose in this Parliament and to our values. We have no interest in doing harm to public services. Our partnership is founded on strengthening and expanding vital services that impact on the lives of ordinary Scots every day: new hospital developments; new and refurbished schools; standards in education; integrated public transport; and the construction of new and renovation of existing houses. Those are all public services that have been improved by this Parliament.

This is not about privatisation. We are creating and supporting partnerships between the public and private sectors to achieve high-quality investment in public services. We are committed to delivering, and are delivering, new skills for Scottish children and hospitals for those who need medical care. We say, openly and clearly, that where services will be better, where costs will be low, and where staff will be protected, we will create public-private partnerships.

We are committed to continuing with those partnerships, but we are also committed to innovation and flexibility, and to reviewing how the partnerships work in the interests of people and communities.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1926E190P479C705384", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Adam, Brian", "ID": 1926, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Adam", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Brian Adam (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 56.0, "ContributionID": 705384, "EditedText": "Mr McConnell suggests that his scheme will give flexibility, but I fail to see how that can be achieved under long-term contracts. In many of the areas that he has described there will be a need for significant changes in the lifetime of contracts; every time a change is required, we will have to go to whoever owns the facility, or manages the service and controls the staff. How will his scheme give the public sector the flexibility to introduce changes that it might require but that public-private partnerships might not be able to deliver?", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr McConnell suggests that his scheme will give flexibility, but I fail to see how that can be achieved under long-term contracts. In many of the areas that he has described there will be a need for significant changes in the lifetime of contracts; every time a change is required, we will have to go to whoever owns the facility, or manages the service and controls the staff. How will his scheme give the public sector the flexibility to introduce changes that it might require but that public-private partnerships might not be able to deliver?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C705390", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan (Glasgow) (SSP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 68.0, "ContributionID": 705390, "EditedText": "Does Jack agree that the STUC and Unison are implacably opposed to PFI?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does Jack agree that the STUC and Unison are implacably opposed to PFI?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1828E200P487C705394", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacDonald, Margo", "ID": 1828, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margo MacDonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Margo MacDonald (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 76.0, "ContributionID": 705394, "EditedText": "The ancillary staff of the Edinburgh royal infirmary have been transferred to the employ of Haden Young. Haden Young's pension scheme does not equate with the NHS scheme. Can Mr McConnell explain how the scheme is to be funded? Has he renegotiated the contract with Haden Young, or will the Health Service Executive pick up the bill for that group of workers who will lose their pension rights?", "EditedTextHTML": "The ancillary staff of the Edinburgh royal infirmary have been transferred to the employ of Haden Young. Haden Young's pension scheme does not equate with the NHS scheme. Can Mr McConnell explain how the scheme is to be funded? Has he renegotiated the contract with Haden Young, or will the Health Service Executive pick up the bill for that group of workers who will lose their pension rights?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C705395", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 78.0, "ContributionID": 705395, "EditedText": "As Ms MacDonald will be aware, we are negotiating on the matter. We have reached a good agreement at the Hairmyres hospital and I believe that we have almost reached an agreement at the new Law or Wishaw general hospital. It would be wrong of me to comment on who might pick up the bill following those negotiations as we hope to secure the best possible deal for the public sector. The partnership agreement made clear that, where appropriate, we would review the operation of public-private partnerships to ensure that assets would revert to public ownership. I am pleased to announce a new approach for buildings for which there is no practical alternative use at the end of contract period, including most schools and hospitals. There will be an option in contracts for those assets to revert to public sector ownership at no cost to the public sector. Other options will remain, and that situation represents maximum flexibility for the public sector and ensures important safeguards. The policy will be implemented immediately in Government public- private partnerships and I expect it to be followed by the rest of the public sector as soon as possible.", "EditedTextHTML": "As Ms MacDonald will be aware, we are negotiating on the matter. We have reached a good agreement at the Hairmyres hospital and I believe that we have almost reached an agreement at the new Law or Wishaw general hospital. It would be wrong of me to comment on who might pick up the bill following those negotiations as we hope to secure the best possible deal for the public sector.

The partnership agreement made clear that, where appropriate, we would review the operation of public-private partnerships to ensure that assets would revert to public ownership. I am pleased to announce a new approach for buildings for which there is no practical alternative use at the end of contract period, including most schools and hospitals. There will be an option in contracts for those assets to revert to public sector ownership at no cost to the public sector. Other options will remain, and that situation represents maximum flexibility for the public sector and ensures important safeguards. The policy will be implemented immediately in Government public- private partnerships and I expect it to be followed by the rest of the public sector as soon as possible.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C705401", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 90.0, "ContributionID": 705401, "EditedText": "As Mr Wilson should know because of his expertise in the area, the whole basis of the public-private partnerships and PFI is the transfer of risk. In some cases, the transfer of risk takes place where assets have conditions tied to them about their reverting to public sector ownership. In all the different cases across Scotland, in every contract, we have chosen the best possible option in the public interest, which, in the future, will mean that, in some cases, the risk will transfer at nil cost. At the moment, the risk is transferred at different values, or there is an option for that to happen. That option is important because, in some cases, public buildings will not be wanted at the end of the contract and it would be preferable to leave the risk and liability with the private sector. I am sorry that I have taken so long, Sir David, but I wanted to take interventions. I am determined that as much information as possible is made available, provided that is not commercially confidential. Last year, the Treasury task force produced a policy statement on the involvement of staff and the trade unions in public-private partnerships. Both the Trades Union Council and the Confederation of British Industry welcomed the approach, which we will continue to take in Scotland. However, I will take the policy of openness further and, in future, will make available the annual expenditure commitments associated with public-private partnership projects, sector by sector. In the health sector, full business cases are already published. My colleague Mr Galbraith initiated that during his time as health minister. I have decided that that policy will apply to all future Government public-private partnership projects in Scotland. Central to the partnership agreement is a commitment to innovative government, welcoming good ideas from wherever they come. By seizing that prize we will deliver better quality public services. Public-private partnerships are innovative; they are delivering new hospitals, new schools and better transport links. We are open- minded about how they work in practice and I want to discover how we can make them better and how we learn from experience. As a first step, I have announced important new policy changes: a firm public commitment to a best value approach in asset sales; new pension rights for workers; new options for public ownership of the new facilities; and more information for Parliament and interested citizens. I hope that those policy changes will lead to better value and to public-private partnerships that operate better. We are committed to keeping the process under review. In particular, my colleague Susan Deacon will be consulting widely through the Scottish Partnership Forum on the way in which we go forward in the national health service in Scotland, using the principles that I have described today. Politics, colleagues, is like life: full of choices. Interruption. That was very profound. We must answer an important question about the direction of the Parliament. Today we vote either for the public services of the future or for the rhetoric of the past; we choose between the real projects initiated by the Government—real schools, real hospitals, cleaner water and better roads—and the negative, carping, mythical plans of the Opposition. I know what the people of Scotland chose on 6 May, and today we will deliver the future that they want, need and, most of all, deserve. I move, as an amendment to motion S1M-67, leave out from \"Parliament\" to end and insert \"supports the provision of high quality health, education, transport and other public services; agrees that public/private partnerships will continue to be one of the ways used to increase innovation and investment in public services where this approach represents best value; calls on the Executive to continue to work to improve the operation of public/private partnerships and seek opportunities for new types of partnership and flexible contracts which will allow assets, when appropriate, to revert to public ownership, and recognises its use in delivering high quality public services while protecting the interests of the community as indicated in the Partnership for Scotland.\"", "EditedTextHTML": "As Mr Wilson should know because of his expertise in the area, the whole basis of the public-private partnerships and PFI is the transfer of risk. In some cases, the transfer of risk takes place where assets have conditions tied to them about their reverting to public sector ownership. In all the different cases across Scotland, in every contract, we have chosen the best possible option in the public interest, which, in the future, will mean that, in some cases, the risk will transfer at nil cost. At the moment, the risk is transferred at different values, or there is an option for that to happen. That option is important because, in some cases, public buildings will not be wanted at the end of the contract and it would be preferable to leave the risk and liability with the private sector.

I am sorry that I have taken so long, Sir David, but I wanted to take interventions. I am determined that as much information as possible is made available, provided that is not commercially confidential. Last year, the Treasury task force produced a policy statement on the involvement of staff and the trade unions in public-private partnerships. Both the Trades Union Council and the Confederation of British Industry welcomed the approach, which we will continue to take in Scotland. However, I will take the policy of openness further and, in future, will make available the annual expenditure commitments associated with public-private partnership projects, sector by sector. In the health sector, full business cases are already published. My colleague Mr Galbraith initiated that during his time as health minister. I have decided that that policy will apply to all future Government public-private partnership projects in Scotland.

Central to the partnership agreement is a commitment to innovative government, welcoming good ideas from wherever they come. By seizing that prize we will deliver better quality public services. Public-private partnerships are innovative; they are delivering new hospitals, new schools and better transport links. We are open- minded about how they work in practice and I want to discover how we can make them better and how we learn from experience. As a first step, I

have announced important new policy changes: a firm public commitment to a best value approach in asset sales; new pension rights for workers; new options for public ownership of the new facilities; and more information for Parliament and interested citizens.

I hope that those policy changes will lead to better value and to public-private partnerships that operate better. We are committed to keeping the process under review. In particular, my colleague Susan Deacon will be consulting widely through the Scottish Partnership Forum on the way in which we go forward in the national health service in Scotland, using the principles that I have described today.

Politics, colleagues, is like life: full of choices. [Interruption.] That was very profound.

We must answer an important question about the direction of the Parliament. Today we vote either for the public services of the future or for the rhetoric of the past; we choose between the real projects initiated by the Government—real schools, real hospitals, cleaner water and better roads—and the negative, carping, mythical plans of the Opposition. I know what the people of Scotland chose on 6 May, and today we will deliver the future that they want, need and, most of all, deserve.

I move, as an amendment to motion S1M-67, leave out from \"Parliament\" to end and insert

\"supports the provision of high quality health, education, transport and other public services; agrees that public/private partnerships will continue to be one of the ways used to increase innovation and investment in public services where this approach represents best value; calls on the Executive to continue to work to improve the operation of public/private partnerships and seek opportunities for new types of partnership and flexible contracts which will allow assets, when appropriate, to revert to public ownership, and recognises its use in delivering high quality public services while protecting the interests of the community as indicated in the Partnership for Scotland.\"

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1811E172P455C705411", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ullrich, Kay", "ID": 1811, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kay Ullrich", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Kay Ullrich: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 112.0, "ContributionID": 705411, "EditedText": "I will not give way just now.It is a fact that nearly 30 per cent of health service PFI schemes in the UK are in Scotland, and I call that a betrayal by the very party that gave us the national health service. I know that many of the Labour members who are here today share our misgivings over PFI. Nicola spoke of the \"Newsnight\" survey, which indicated that a majority of Labour candidates wanted their party to move away from PFI. As a Unison member myself, I know that many Unison members—and ex-Unison officials—who are here today have particularly heavy hearts about PFI.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will not give way just now.

It is a fact that nearly 30 per cent of health service PFI schemes in the UK are in Scotland, and I call that a betrayal by the very party that gave us the national health service. I know that many of the Labour members who are here today share our misgivings over PFI. Nicola spoke of the \"Newsnight\" survey, which indicated that a majority of Labour candidates wanted their party to move away from PFI. As a Unison member myself, I know that many Unison members—and ex-Unison officials—who are here today have particularly heavy hearts about PFI.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1811E172P455C705413", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ullrich, Kay", "ID": 1811, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kay Ullrich", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Kay Ullrich: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 116.0, "ContributionID": 705413, "EditedText": "No matter which way Mr McConnell puts it, the bottom line is still the same—his party was rent asunder over PFI. During the election campaign, Unison members who were Labour candidates had to stand by as their colleagues resigned from the Labour party over the privatisation of the health service. In one week alone, they saw the resignation of Unison's local government leader, Mark Irvine, and had to stand and watch as no fewer than 1,500 Unison members at Edinburgh royal infirmary severed their links with the Labour party because the new hospital would remain in the hands of the private consortium and not with the people of Edinburgh.", "EditedTextHTML": "No matter which way Mr McConnell puts it, the bottom line is still the same—his party was rent asunder over PFI. During the election campaign, Unison members who were Labour candidates had to stand by as their colleagues resigned from the Labour party over the privatisation of the health service. In one week alone, they saw the resignation of Unison's local government leader, Mark Irvine, and had to stand and watch as no fewer than 1,500 Unison members at Edinburgh royal infirmary severed their links with the Labour party because the new hospital would remain in the hands of the private consortium and not with the people of Edinburgh.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1811E172P455C705415", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ullrich, Kay", "ID": 1811, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kay Ullrich", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Kay Ullrich: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 120.0, "ContributionID": 705415, "EditedText": "In the words of Mandy Rice- Davies: as an executive member of the Labour party, John Lambie would say that, wouldn't he? The cost to the taxpayer of £4.2 billion on service payments alone—on assets that the taxpayer will never own—is a gigantic scandal. However, the real cost is in human terms. For example, the number of available beds will be cut, on average, by 30 per cent and budgets for nursing staff will be cut by up to 20 per cent. The cost that is of most concern is in the division between clinical and non-clinical workers. The privatisation of non-clinical workers will lead to the destruction of the concept of the health care team. By that act alone, PFI will effectively destroy the ethos that underpins the national health service in Scotland. This motion calls on the Scottish Parliament to end the secrecy that surrounds PFI. If the Executive really believes that PFI represents best value, this Parliament should be allowed to examine the books and scrutinise each public project that involves private finance.", "EditedTextHTML": "In the words of Mandy Rice- Davies: as an executive member of the Labour party, John Lambie would say that, wouldn't he?

The cost to the taxpayer of £4.2 billion on service payments alone—on assets that the taxpayer will never own—is a gigantic scandal. However, the real cost is in human terms. For example, the number of available beds will be cut, on average, by 30 per cent and budgets for nursing staff will be cut by up to 20 per cent. The cost that is of most concern is in the division between clinical and non-clinical workers. The privatisation of non-clinical workers will lead to the destruction of the concept of the health care team. By that act alone, PFI will effectively destroy the ethos that underpins the national health service in Scotland.

This motion calls on the Scottish Parliament to end the secrecy that surrounds PFI. If the

Executive really believes that PFI represents best value, this Parliament should be allowed to examine the books and scrutinise each public project that involves private finance.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1970E66P288C705424", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNulty, Des", "ID": 1970, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Clydebank and Milngavie" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Des McNulty", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Des McNulty: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 139.0, "ContributionID": 705424, "EditedText": "If Andrew will let me make one more point, I will let him come in. I am very grateful to Jack McConnell, because his announcements—about surplus land, about the protection of employees, particularly on pensions, about the reversion of assets to public sector use and about the openness that will assist the scrutiny to which I have referred—represent major steps forward. There have been legitimate criticisms of these schemes in the past, but those criticisms have now been addressed.", "EditedTextHTML": "If Andrew will let me make one more point, I will let him come in. I am very grateful to Jack McConnell, because his announcements—about surplus land, about the protection of employees, particularly on pensions, about the reversion of assets to public sector use and about the openness that will assist the scrutiny to which I have referred—represent major steps forward. There have been legitimate criticisms of these schemes in the past, but those criticisms have now been addressed.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1970E66P288C705418", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNulty, Des", "ID": 1970, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Clydebank and Milngavie" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Des McNulty", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Des McNulty: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 127.0, "ContributionID": 705418, "EditedText": "It would be interesting to find out what the SNP is proposing, as it seems to be reluctant, in various ways and in various forums, to indicate clearly what its proposal is. For years, the SNP has adopted a process of thinking of a slogan and then trying to construct a policy behind it, and that is what it has done in this instance. The press in Scotland has given the SNP great leeway over the years by refusing to take it seriously as a political party and to subject its proposals to proper scrutiny. In the process, the press has done the SNP and us a disservice. Now that we are all here in this Parliament, we have to engage in grown-up politics, to consider issues, to make hard choices and to consider carefully the options before us. There is a huge gap between the funding needed to replace aging schools, hospitals and infrastructure and what we can reasonably expect the taxpayer to provide over the next five to 10 years. Anyone who walks around Scotland's schools, hospitals or other elements of the infrastructure, such as the water and sewerage industry, immediately recognises that gap. Much of the blame must be laid at the door of the previous Conservative Government, which consistently diverted resources away from public services and refused capital consent for education, health, housing and key environmental projects, such as water and sewerage plants. As a consequence, we have a huge backlog of under- investment, which has to be addressed as a matter of urgency, as it threatens the continuity and the quality of services that we in Scotland require and which our constituents expect us to provide on their behalf.", "EditedTextHTML": "It would be interesting to find out what the SNP is proposing, as it seems to be reluctant, in various ways and in various forums, to indicate clearly what its proposal is. For years, the SNP has adopted a process of thinking of a slogan and then trying to construct a policy behind it, and that is what it has done in this instance. The press in Scotland has given the SNP great leeway over the years by refusing to take it seriously as a political party and to subject its proposals to proper scrutiny. In the process, the press has done the SNP and us a disservice. Now that we are all here in this Parliament, we have to engage in grown-up politics, to consider issues, to make hard choices and to consider carefully the options before us.

There is a huge gap between the funding needed to replace aging schools, hospitals and infrastructure and what we can reasonably expect the taxpayer to provide over the next five to 10 years. Anyone who walks around Scotland's schools, hospitals or other elements of the infrastructure, such as the water and sewerage industry, immediately recognises that gap. Much of the blame must be laid at the door of the previous Conservative Government, which consistently diverted resources away from public services and refused capital consent for education, health, housing and key environmental projects, such as water and sewerage plants. As a consequence, we have a huge backlog of under- investment, which has to be addressed as a matter of urgency, as it threatens the continuity and the quality of services that we in Scotland require and which our constituents expect us to provide on their behalf.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C705419", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 129.0, "ContributionID": 705419, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C705423", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 137.0, "ContributionID": 705423, "EditedText": "Will Mr McNulty give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr McNulty give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1970E66P288C705426", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNulty, Des", "ID": 1970, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Clydebank and Milngavie" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Des McNulty", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Des McNulty: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 143.0, "ContributionID": 705426, "EditedText": "I said at the start of my speech that the SNP has to engage in grown-up, serious politics. I do not feel that the party has done so up to now. It has not engaged in the debate about real options and alternatives. When the SNP wants to talk seriously about what can and what needs to be done, it will be taken seriously.", "EditedTextHTML": "I said at the start of my speech that the SNP has to engage in grown-up, serious politics. I do not feel that the party has done so up to now. It has not engaged in the debate about real options and alternatives. When the SNP wants to talk seriously about what can and what needs to be done, it will be taken seriously.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C705429", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ms Patricia Ferguson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 149.0, "ContributionID": 705429, "EditedText": "Some members have not placed their chip-cards in their consoles. It would help greatly with interventions if they could do so.", "EditedTextHTML": "Some members have not placed their chip-cards in their consoles. It would help greatly with interventions if they could do so.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C705431", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 154.0, "ContributionID": 705431, "EditedText": "I will ask Mr Gibson the question that I asked Ms Sturgeon. Can he name one PFI project where the option to purchase does not exist at the end of the contract? There are some projects like that and I know which they are, but can he name any?", "EditedTextHTML": "I will ask Mr Gibson the question that I asked Ms Sturgeon. Can he name one PFI project where the option to purchase does not exist at the end of the contract? There are some projects like that and I know which they are, but can he name any?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C705437", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie (Lothians) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 166.0, "ContributionID": 705437, "EditedText": "As part ofMr Gibson's resistance campaign to Tory privatisation plans, will he confirm that the SNP's policy is to return at the earliest opportunity that it has—which I hope will not be very early—Scottish Power and Scottish Hydro-Electric to nationalised control?", "EditedTextHTML": "As part of

Mr Gibson's resistance campaign to Tory privatisation plans, will he confirm that the SNP's policy is to return at the earliest opportunity that it has—which I hope will not be very early—Scottish Power and Scottish Hydro-Electric to nationalised control?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C705441", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 174.0, "ContributionID": 705441, "EditedText": "Will Mr Gibson give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr Gibson give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C705452", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Keith Raffan (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 197.0, "ContributionID": 705452, "EditedText": "In view of Mr Gibson's concluding remarks, I will start with a quotation from Mr Alf Young in The Herald, referring to Balfron High School in my regional constituency of Mid Scotland and Fife. He said: \"If we were to wait for the local authority to replace our overcrowded, worn-out school from its own financial resources, we could still be waiting in 2020. If we want our kids educated in the kind of modern, enriched teaching environment that implicitly tells them day-in, day-out: first and foremost this country values education, education, and education—then, like it or not, the private finance initiative is currently the only game in town.\"", "EditedTextHTML": "In view of Mr Gibson's concluding remarks, I will start with a quotation from Mr Alf Young in The Herald, referring to Balfron High School in my regional constituency of Mid Scotland and Fife. He said:

\"If we were to wait for the local authority to replace our overcrowded, worn-out school from its own financial resources, we could still be waiting in 2020. If we want our kids educated in the kind of modern, enriched teaching environment that implicitly tells them day-in, day-out: first and foremost this country values education, education, and education—then, like it or not, the private finance initiative is currently the only game in town.\"

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C705460", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 213.0, "ContributionID": 705460, "EditedText": "We can all play the game of selective quotation, as I pointed out last week. I have the manifesto, and I will happily quote long sections of it to Ms Sturgeon. It said: \"We need a private public partnership which leads to more cost effective public sector investment strategy.\" That is absolutely right. I will make points in my speech about the way in which we are working together with the Labour party. I strongly agree with the improvements to this policy that Labour is making.", "EditedTextHTML": "We can all play the game of selective quotation, as I pointed out last week. I have the manifesto, and I will happily quote long sections of it to Ms Sturgeon. It said:

\"We need a private public partnership which leads to more cost effective public sector investment strategy.\"

That is absolutely right. I will make points in my speech about the way in which we are working together with the Labour party. I strongly agree with the improvements to this policy that Labour is making.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C705463", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 219.0, "ContributionID": 705463, "EditedText": "I am grateful to Mr Raffan for giving way during a key contribution to the debate. The Bank of Scotland criticised our proposals not because of the funding mechanism, which it supports, but because we refused to downgrade the conditions of workers and employees within the projects. We protected them, which perhaps Mr Raffan should support. Will Mr Raffan take the opportunity to outline the Liberal Democrats' plans for community partnership trusts, which appear in three words in the Liberal Democrat manifesto and nowhere else?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful to Mr Raffan for giving way during a key contribution to the debate. The Bank of Scotland criticised our proposals not because of the funding mechanism, which it supports, but because we refused to downgrade the conditions of workers and employees within the projects. We protected them, which perhaps Mr Raffan should support.

Will Mr Raffan take the opportunity to outline the Liberal Democrats' plans for community partnership trusts, which appear in three words in the Liberal Democrat manifesto and nowhere else?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C705465", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 223.0, "ContributionID": 705465, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C705467", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 227.0, "ContributionID": 705467, "EditedText": "Notwithstanding Mr Galbraith's rather ungallant comments, I am grateful to Mr Raffan for giving way. It might be more appropriate for this chamber if Mr Galbraith stopped sniping from the sidelines. Can Mr Raffan pick up on the point in our motion that seeks to improve existing PFI projects by opening them up and making them more transparent, allowing the Finance Committee to examine them? Does he agree with me and with Geoffrey Robinson that there should be absolute transparency in all projects, not only in the sectors mentioned by Mr McConnell?", "EditedTextHTML": "Notwithstanding Mr Galbraith's rather ungallant comments, I am grateful to Mr Raffan for giving way. It might be more appropriate for this chamber if Mr Galbraith stopped sniping from the sidelines.

Can Mr Raffan pick up on the point in our motion that seeks to improve existing PFI projects by opening them up and making them more transparent, allowing the Finance Committee to examine them? Does he agree with me and with Geoffrey Robinson that there should be absolute transparency in all projects, not only in the sectors mentioned by Mr McConnell?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C705470", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 233.0, "ContributionID": 705470, "EditedText": "No, I am not going to give way any more because I am near the end. I have given way a lot—well, all right, I did not realise that it was the fundamentalist; I will give way to the fundamentalist. He is the SNP's internal opposition.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I am not going to give way any more because I am near the end. I have given way a lot—well, all right, I did not realise that it was the fundamentalist; I will give way to the fundamentalist. He is the SNP's internal opposition.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C705471", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 235.0, "ContributionID": 705471, "EditedText": "Much appreciated.Mr Raffan quoted Alf Young saying that a school required PFI. Is it not the case that if we had adopted Liberal Democrat policy, putting 1p on income tax and earmarking it for education, PFI in education might not have been necessary at all?", "EditedTextHTML": "Much appreciated.

Mr Raffan quoted Alf Young saying that a school required PFI. Is it not the case that if we had adopted Liberal Democrat policy, putting 1p on income tax and earmarking it for education, PFI in education might not have been necessary at all?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C705475", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 244.0, "ContributionID": 705475, "EditedText": "Give me a second please, Richard. There may be times when Keith and I will agree or disagree, but I hope that we and others in the chamber will put the people of Scotland first, rather than hark back to comments by Mandy Rice-Davies, Alex Rowley or whoever else. The important principle is being lost in this debate. That principle is the delivery and provision of public health and other services to the people of Scotland. When, many years ago in the House of Commons, the Conservative party argued that tenants should be given the right to buy their council houses, the consumption of the good was the most important thing, rather than who owned it. Rather than saying \"public good, private bad\", we should try to focus the debate on the delivery of the services.", "EditedTextHTML": "Give me a second please, Richard.

There may be times when Keith and I will agree or disagree, but I hope that we and others in the chamber will put the people of Scotland first, rather than hark back to comments by Mandy Rice-Davies, Alex Rowley or whoever else.

The important principle is being lost in this debate. That principle is the delivery and provision of public health and other services to the people of Scotland. When, many years ago in the House of Commons, the Conservative party argued that tenants should be given the right to buy their council houses, the consumption of the good was the most important thing, rather than who owned it. Rather than saying \"public good, private bad\", we should try to focus the debate on the delivery of the services.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1882E175P456C705488", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ingram, Adam", "ID": 1882, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Adam Ingram", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Adam Ingram (South of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 272.0, "ContributionID": 705488, "EditedText": "I shall preface my contribution to the debate with some observations on its historical context. I know that that is a wee bit risky given that history is a little out of fashion in the Labour party.Last year we celebrated 50 years of the national health service—probably the single most important peacetime achievement of any Government this century. It was the greatest leap forward for social inclusion that this country has ever seen. Everyone in our society was given entitlement to quality medical provision free and at the point of need regardless of his or her means. It was Aneurin Bevan, the great socialist architect of the NHS, who proclaimed the dawn of a new age in this country—an age in which no one would be denied the support that was necessary to climb out of the miseries induced by illness, ignorance, poverty and unemployment. That support would be there from cradle to grave. At last that supreme article of socialist faith— \"From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs\"— was given hugely practical and popular expression. For the past 50 years, public investment and reinvestment has been efficiently financed by low-interest, long-term loans from the Public Works Loans Board. That has allowed succeeding generations to fulfil and to sustain Bevan's vision. That vision is now being systematically undermined. The ticking time bomb that is the private finance initiative is set to blow away the legacy of the past 50 years. In the motion we are asking Parliament to stop that bomb going off. The rush to PFI means an ever-increasing takeover of public assets such as schools and hospitals by private consortia that are driven by the profit motive rather than by public interest. In the debate, my colleagues have described and will describe how public needs are being overridden; I would like to concentrate on why that is happening. PFI was essentially a Tory creation that was born out of Thatcherite ideology.", "EditedTextHTML": "I shall preface my contribution to the debate with some observations on its historical context. I know that that is a wee bit risky given that history is a

little out of fashion in the Labour party.

Last year we celebrated 50 years of the national health service—probably the single most important peacetime achievement of any Government this century. It was the greatest leap forward for social inclusion that this country has ever seen. Everyone in our society was given entitlement to quality medical provision free and at the point of need regardless of his or her means. It was Aneurin Bevan, the great socialist architect of the NHS, who proclaimed the dawn of a new age in this country—an age in which no one would be denied the support that was necessary to climb out of the miseries induced by illness, ignorance, poverty and unemployment. That support would be there from cradle to grave. At last that supreme article of socialist faith—

\"From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs\"— was given hugely practical and popular expression. For the past 50 years, public investment and reinvestment has been efficiently financed by low-interest, long-term loans from the Public Works Loans Board. That has allowed succeeding generations to fulfil and to sustain Bevan's vision. That vision is now being systematically undermined.

The ticking time bomb that is the private finance initiative is set to blow away the legacy of the past 50 years. In the motion we are asking Parliament to stop that bomb going off. The rush to PFI means an ever-increasing takeover of public assets such as schools and hospitals by private consortia that are driven by the profit motive rather than by public interest.

In the debate, my colleagues have described and will describe how public needs are being overridden; I would like to concentrate on why that is happening. PFI was essentially a Tory creation that was born out of Thatcherite ideology.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C705491", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 278.0, "ContributionID": 705491, "EditedText": "I ask you wind up now please, Mr Ingram.", "EditedTextHTML": "I ask you wind up now please, Mr Ingram.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C705495", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 287.0, "ContributionID": 705495, "EditedText": "I completely deny that that is the reason why we are left with those problems. They are due to a lack of planning. There was a willingness to construct thousands of homes to deal with massive overcrowding in areas such as Govan and the Gorbals in Glasgow, which resulted in the building of flat-roofed tenements. That would have been nice and they would have lasted for ever in places such as Greece, which has a nice climate, but not in places such as Glasgow where it is always teeming with rain.However, that does not mean that we should now throw the baby out with the bath water. We should plan properly and invest publicly in housing to produce homes that, unlike the homes that they have now, people can afford and in which they can live and bring up their families with plenty of space and in comfort. The director of Glasgow's housing department was forced to admit that such homes could be delivered more quickly through public investment.", "EditedTextHTML": "I completely deny that that is the reason why we are left with those problems. They are due to a lack of planning. There was a willingness to construct thousands of homes to deal with massive overcrowding in areas such as Govan and the Gorbals in Glasgow, which resulted in the building of flat-roofed tenements. That would have been nice and they would have lasted for ever in places such as Greece, which has a nice climate, but not in places such as

Glasgow where it is always teeming with rain.

However, that does not mean that we should now throw the baby out with the bath water. We should plan properly and invest publicly in housing to produce homes that, unlike the homes that they have now, people can afford and in which they can live and bring up their families with plenty of space and in comfort. The director of Glasgow's housing department was forced to admit that such homes could be delivered more quickly through public investment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C705499", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 295.0, "ContributionID": 705499, "EditedText": "When the Scottish Socialist party approaches the Bank of Scotland, the Royal Bank of Scotland, ICI, Unilever, ScotRail and British Telecom, we will tell them that who owns them is not the problem and that that is why we are taking them back to run them in an accountable and democratic fashion, in the interests of ordinary people and to produce goods on the basis of need, not profit.", "EditedTextHTML": "When the Scottish Socialist party approaches the Bank of Scotland, the Royal Bank of Scotland, ICI, Unilever, ScotRail and British Telecom, we will tell them that who owns them is not the problem and that that is why we are taking them back to run them in an accountable and democratic fashion, in the interests of ordinary people and to produce goods on the basis of need, not profit.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2090E83P266C705500", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAllion, Mr John", "ID": 2090, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dundee East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John McAllion", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr John McAllion (Dundee East) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 298.0, "ContributionID": 705500, "EditedText": "When Nicola Sturgeon introduced this debate, she said that the fact that the Scottish National party was introducing a motion showed that it was being a constructive Opposition. She then went on to attack personally Jim Wallace, the Liberal Democrats and the Labour party. She even managed to drag poor Alex Rowley into it, as if he did not have enough problems of his own. If that is her being constructive, I would not like to see her in destructive mode. We know what the real idea behind today's motion is, simply by listening to the radio. This morning, the SNP spin doctors had already told the radio broadcasters what this debate was all about—a blatant attempt to break the Liberal Democrats from the coalition. Newspaper journalists have also been told that this motion is a blatant attempt to embarrass Labour. In other words, this motion is not a serious attempt to debate PFI or an opportunity for this Parliament to address the issue properly; it is, as usual, the old politics of Westminster—party politicking to get at other political parties. Mr Gibson gave it away when he reminded everyone here that how we vote today will be used at every hustings that members attend between now and the next election. I, for one, am certainly not going to be fooled into supporting an SNP motion that is aimed directly at helping the nationalists and damaging my party. Let us look at the SNP motion. First, it condemns the privatisation of public services. There is nothing wrong with that—I do it myself. The clear implication behind that condemnation is that public services should always be publicly provided—again something that I would not fall out about. Why, then, has the SNP-controlled council in Angus, which has been under SNP control for 16 years, never delivered its housing maintenance and repair service through a direct labour organisation? It has never had a direct labour organisation and it has always delivered that public service through the private sector. Of course, it gets an advantage from doing that because the wages in the private sector are lower, the conditions are not so good and there are no apprenticeship schemes. The SNP gets the benefit of boasting about low rents and council taxes in Angus, but it does that by delivering public services through private means. I will give way to the provost who was responsible for many of those policies.", "EditedTextHTML": "When Nicola Sturgeon introduced this debate, she said that the fact that the Scottish National party was introducing a motion showed that it was being a constructive Opposition. She then went on to attack personally Jim Wallace, the Liberal Democrats and the Labour party. She even managed to drag poor Alex Rowley into it, as if he did not have enough problems of his own. If that is her being constructive, I would not like to see her in destructive mode.

We know what the real idea behind today's motion is, simply by listening to the radio. This morning, the SNP spin doctors had already told the radio broadcasters what this debate was all about—a blatant attempt to break the Liberal Democrats from the coalition. Newspaper journalists have also been told that this motion is a

blatant attempt to embarrass Labour. In other words, this motion is not a serious attempt to debate PFI or an opportunity for this Parliament to address the issue properly; it is, as usual, the old politics of Westminster—party politicking to get at other political parties.

Mr Gibson gave it away when he reminded everyone here that how we vote today will be used at every hustings that members attend between now and the next election. I, for one, am certainly not going to be fooled into supporting an SNP motion that is aimed directly at helping the nationalists and damaging my party.

Let us look at the SNP motion. First, it condemns the privatisation of public services. There is nothing wrong with that—I do it myself. The clear implication behind that condemnation is that public services should always be publicly provided—again something that I would not fall out about. Why, then, has the SNP-controlled council in Angus, which has been under SNP control for 16 years, never delivered its housing maintenance and repair service through a direct labour organisation? It has never had a direct labour organisation and it has always delivered that public service through the private sector. Of course, it gets an advantage from doing that because the wages in the private sector are lower, the conditions are not so good and there are no apprenticeship schemes. The SNP gets the benefit of boasting about low rents and council taxes in Angus, but it does that by delivering public services through private means. I will give way to the provost who was responsible for many of those policies.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1906E278P355C705501", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Welsh, Andrew", "ID": 1906, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Angus" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Welsh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Andrew Welsh (Angus) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 300.0, "ContributionID": 705501, "EditedText": "Mr McAllion is entirely wrong. He should do his homework before making such accusations against the SNP. The administration that I led employed direct labour; we encouraged local business and we used direct labour where appropriate. If Dundee City Council came anywhere near the record of Angus—the best-run council in Scotland—the citizens of Dundee would be much happier.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr McAllion is entirely wrong. He should do his homework before making such accusations against the SNP. The administration that I led employed direct labour; we encouraged local business and we used direct labour where appropriate. If Dundee City Council came anywhere near the record of Angus—the best-run council in Scotland—the citizens of Dundee would be much happier.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2090E83P266C705502", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAllion, Mr John", "ID": 2090, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dundee East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John McAllion", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McAllion: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 302.0, "ContributionID": 705502, "EditedText": "I have done the homework. Mr Welsh ceased to lead the administration in Angus in 1987. At the moment, there is no DLO in Angus providing the housing and maintenance repair service, but there is one in Dundee. That is the difference. Our council is Labour controlled, whereas Angus Council is SNP controlled. As Mr Raffan said—I do not always agree with him— members cannot say one thing here and do something entirely different on the ground. No one is twisting the SNP's arm up its back in Angus. Labour-controlled Dundee has been able to deliver a DLO and so could have Angus if it had chosen to do so.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have done the homework. Mr Welsh ceased to lead the administration in Angus in 1987. At the moment, there is no DLO in Angus providing the housing and maintenance repair service, but there is one in Dundee. That is the difference. Our council is Labour controlled, whereas Angus Council is SNP controlled. As Mr Raffan said—I do not always agree with him— members cannot say one thing here and do something entirely different on the ground. No one is twisting the SNP's arm up its back in Angus. Labour-controlled Dundee has been able to deliver a DLO and so could have Angus if it had chosen to do so.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C705509", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bruce Crawford: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 316.0, "ContributionID": 705509, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C705511", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 320.0, "ContributionID": 705511, "EditedText": "Wind up, please.", "EditedTextHTML": "Wind up, please.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2010E221P512C705515", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Paterson, Gil", "ID": 2010, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Gil Paterson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Gil Paterson (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 329.0, "ContributionID": 705515, "EditedText": "What a gift we will leave our children as a result of PFI; we will build a hospital or a school at 10 times the real cost and give them the invoice.", "EditedTextHTML": "What a gift we will leave our children as a result of PFI; we will build a hospital or a school at 10 times the real cost and give them the invoice.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2010E221P512C705521", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Paterson, Gil", "ID": 2010, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Gil Paterson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Paterson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 341.0, "ContributionID": 705521, "EditedText": "No, thanks.I have made the point before, being a central belt MSP, that I think the worst PFI—the first and the worst—is the Skye road bridge. Daily, people up there are paying through the nose. That pushes up the price of bare essentials—if people go up there, they will see what the prices are like.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, thanks.

I have made the point before, being a central belt MSP, that I think the worst PFI—the first and the worst—is the Skye road bridge. Daily, people up there are paying through the nose. That pushes up the price of bare essentials—if people go up there, they will see what the prices are like.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C705522", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 343.0, "ContributionID": 705522, "EditedText": "Does the member agree that people living on Skye can buy a book of tickets to travel over the bridge, which costs them less than it did to go over on the ferry?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the member agree that people living on Skye can buy a book of tickets to travel over the bridge, which costs them less than it did to go over on the ferry?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C705531", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bruce Crawford: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 362.0, "ContributionID": 705531, "EditedText": "I asked Malcolm a question about level playing field support. Perhaps Margaret is familiar with that area because she comes from a local authority background. I asked him whether the front bench had informed him that the level playing field support that is available to local authorities—which encourages them to go down the route of PFI—is all but exhausted. Has the front bench of Margaret's party told her how many new local authority projects may be financed through PFI without that level playing field support?", "EditedTextHTML": "I asked Malcolm a question about level playing field support. Perhaps Margaret is familiar with that area because she comes from a local authority background. I asked him whether the front bench had informed him that the level playing field support that is available to local authorities—which encourages them to go down the route of PFI—is all but exhausted. Has the front bench of Margaret's party told her how many new local authority projects may be financed through PFI without that level playing field support?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C705536", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 373.0, "ContributionID": 705536, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C705539", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 379.0, "ContributionID": 705539, "EditedText": "Mr MacAskill referred to a civil service brief, and that is accurate. The point is that we already use bonds in our public-private partnerships, including the one that is being used to pay for the new hospital in my constituency of Motherwell and Wishaw.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr MacAskill referred to a civil service brief, and that is accurate. The point is that we already use bonds in our public-private partnerships, including the one that is being used to pay for the new hospital in my constituency of Motherwell and Wishaw.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2112E192P495C705543", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacAskill, Kenny", "ID": 2112, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenny MacAskill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr MacAskill: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 387.0, "ContributionID": 705543, "EditedText": "I will do my best.The ERI contract makes no mention of a buyback. However, I will skip what I intended to say about the details of PPP in Edinburgh and deal with this amendment. Mr McConnell thinks that his is a favourable proposal. I notice that Mrs Curran, who has previously commented on international affairs, is sitting at the back of the chamber. I want to know why, if this is such a good option for the Scottish Parliament, we are restricting it to this chamber and this nation. Why, when throughout the world, particularly in the third world, there are requirements for homes, schools and hospitals, are we not giving others the benefit of the wisdom that we have acquired through Mr McConnell and his colleagues?", "EditedTextHTML": "I will do my best.

The ERI contract makes no mention of a buyback. However, I will skip what I intended to say about the details of PPP in Edinburgh and deal with this amendment. Mr McConnell thinks that his is a favourable proposal. I notice that Mrs Curran, who has previously commented on international affairs, is sitting at the back of the chamber. I want to know why, if this is such a good option for the Scottish Parliament, we are restricting it to this chamber and this nation. Why, when throughout the world, particularly in the third world, there are requirements for homes, schools and hospitals, are we not giving others the benefit of the wisdom that we have acquired through Mr McConnell and his colleagues?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2112E192P495C705545", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacAskill, Kenny", "ID": 2112, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenny MacAskill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr MacAskill: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 391.0, "ContributionID": 705545, "EditedText": "Why do we not suggest PPP to the United Nations and the G8 as the way in which to revitalise the third world? If it is good enough for us, it is good enough for them. If it is not good enough for them and they will not accept it, why is Mr McConnell imposing it on our people?", "EditedTextHTML": "Why do we not suggest PPP to the United Nations and the G8 as the way in which to revitalise the third world? If it is good enough for us, it is good enough for them. If it is not good enough for them and they will not accept it, why is Mr McConnell imposing it on our people?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1828E200P487C705547", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacDonald, Margo", "ID": 1828, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margo MacDonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Margo MacDonald (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 397.0, "ContributionID": 705547, "EditedText": "I will take Jack McConnell's invitation at face value and put campaign rhetoric behind me; I will ignore the fact that Keith Raffan called me an unreconstructed Jurassic park socialist. Having got that out of the way, I apologise for not tackling the huge issues—the ideological issues—that are implicit in the private ownership of public services; PFIs involve a partnership, which implies ownership. I will also put aside the unkind jibes that I made about where we might find an alternative source of funding—by getting rid of nuclear weapons—and address myself to the situation here in Edinburgh. I have an urgent reason for bringing the chamber's attention to the reality of PFI. Although I welcome a sinner who has repented, and what Jack McConnell said today about making wee improvements at the margins, I fear that, for some aspects of the Edinburgh royal infirmary contract that has already been signed, and for the contract that is waiting to be signed, that may be too late.There is a second PFI at the Edinburgh royal infirmary—for equipment. Before the election, I was concerned because every piece of advice that had received—from the British Medical Association, from the people who work in the area that will be covered by the second PFI and, of course, from Unison—suggested that it would, almost certainly, lead to a lowering of the standard of clinical care. The equipment PFI covers equipment that is patient-critical. The equipment is operated by a health team that is made up of the same people who purchase, install and maintain it, and who train the staff in how to use it. They are an integrated part of the medical care. Under the equipment PFI, they would be split off from the rest of the clinicians and nursing staff. I was also very concerned about the total absence of British health care companies from the companies that tendered for this PFI, because I do not want the bedside bookkeeping of the American health care companies in Edinburgh's new royal infirmary. I am sure that Mr McConnell does not want that either. I have a compelling third reason for revisiting the PFI. When the minister sums up, I want him to give us an assurance that the Executive will re-examine the books for the Edinburgh PFI. I have here a letter dated 31 May. It is addressed to the executive directors of the Lothian University Hospitals NHS Trust, and is from the heads of service and business managers at the royal infirmary. It says that \"effective planning of and communication about the entire project has ground to a halt\" and that \"plans for equipment specification and purchase are causing deep anxiety.\" Most worrying of all for the people who will use the privatised new infirmary at Little France, the letter states that few of the service heads and managers \"have gained confidence about the level of service they will be able to provide after going through this process.\" During the election campaign, some new Labour spokespeople brushed aside criticisms that I was making. I was, if members will excuse their phrase, \"a troublemaker\". Angus Mackay, a very nice boy—", "EditedTextHTML": "I will take Jack McConnell's invitation at face value and put campaign rhetoric behind me; I will ignore the fact that Keith Raffan called me an unreconstructed Jurassic park socialist.

Having got that out of the way, I apologise for not tackling the huge issues—the ideological issues—that are implicit in the private ownership of public services; PFIs involve a partnership, which implies ownership. I will also put aside the unkind jibes that I made about where we might find an alternative source of funding—by getting rid of nuclear weapons—and address myself to the situation here in Edinburgh.

I have an urgent reason for bringing the chamber's attention to the reality of PFI. Although I welcome a sinner who has repented, and what Jack McConnell said today about making wee improvements at the margins, I fear that, for some aspects of the Edinburgh royal infirmary contract that has already been signed, and for the contract

that is waiting to be signed, that may be too late.

There is a second PFI at the Edinburgh royal infirmary—for equipment. Before the election, I was concerned because every piece of advice that had received—from the British Medical Association, from the people who work in the area that will be covered by the second PFI and, of course, from Unison—suggested that it would, almost certainly, lead to a lowering of the standard of clinical care. The equipment PFI covers equipment that is patient-critical. The equipment is operated by a health team that is made up of the same people who purchase, install and maintain it, and who train the staff in how to use it. They are an integrated part of the medical care. Under the equipment PFI, they would be split off from the rest of the clinicians and nursing staff.

I was also very concerned about the total absence of British health care companies from the companies that tendered for this PFI, because I do not want the bedside bookkeeping of the American health care companies in Edinburgh's new royal infirmary. I am sure that Mr McConnell does not want that either.

I have a compelling third reason for revisiting the PFI. When the minister sums up, I want him to give us an assurance that the Executive will re-examine the books for the Edinburgh PFI. I have here a letter dated 31 May. It is addressed to the executive directors of the Lothian University Hospitals NHS Trust, and is from the heads of service and business managers at the royal infirmary. It says that

\"effective planning of and communication about the entire project has ground to a halt\" and that

\"plans for equipment specification and purchase are causing deep anxiety.\"

Most worrying of all for the people who will use the privatised new infirmary at Little France, the letter states that few of the service heads and managers

\"have gained confidence about the level of service they will be able to provide after going through this process.\"

During the election campaign, some new Labour spokespeople brushed aside criticisms that I was making. I was, if members will excuse their phrase, \"a troublemaker\". Angus Mackay, a very nice boy—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C705555", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 416.0, "ContributionID": 705555, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5140705+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C705556", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 418.0, "ContributionID": 705556, "EditedText": "I would say to Mr McNulty, who made the point about under-investment in the public sector over 20 years, that public sector borrowing restraints were introduced to our economy in 1976 and since then we have had to live within sensible economic management rules, as every major industrial economy does. There is a limit to the amount of borrowing that is reasonable. I will allow Mr Sheridan to come in at a later point as there is something I have to say to him. This Government, like the previous Government, faces the difficulty of the massive backlog in necessary investment in the public sector. We have heard a lot this morning about \"public sector good, private sector bad.\" I find that very curious— it is the mirror image of the caricature that is thrown at Conservatives all the time, which is not our position. \"Public sector good, private sector bad\" seems to be the position of the SNP, however. The private sector has a far better track record than the public sector in building and maintaining properties. What Tommy Sheridan said about some of the reasons for the poor qu ality of council housing in Scotland is true, but the essential problem is that councils have never indulged in life-cycle costings. They do not build up reserves to tackle necessary repair work at the end of the lifetime of a building. Housing associations build up reserves and their tenants know that, at the end of the lifetime of their buildings, they will be able to get the repair work that is needed. They are technically private sector, so the SNP does not like them.", "EditedTextHTML": "I would say to Mr McNulty, who made the point about under-investment in the public sector over 20 years, that public sector borrowing restraints were introduced to our economy in 1976 and since then we have had to live within sensible economic management rules, as every major industrial economy does. There is a limit to the amount of borrowing that is reasonable. I will allow Mr Sheridan to come in at a later point as there is something I have to say to him.

This Government, like the previous Government, faces the difficulty of the massive backlog in necessary investment in the public sector. We have heard a lot this morning about \"public sector good, private sector bad.\" I find that very curious— it is the mirror image of the caricature that is thrown at Conservatives all the time, which is not our position. \"Public sector good, private sector bad\" seems to be the position of the SNP, however. The private sector has a far better track record than the public sector in building and maintaining properties.

What Tommy Sheridan said about some of the reasons for the poor qu ality of council housing in Scotland is true, but the essential problem is that councils have never indulged in life-cycle costings. They do not build up reserves to tackle necessary repair work at the end of the lifetime of a building. Housing associations build up reserves and their tenants know that, at the end of the lifetime of their buildings, they will be able to get the repair work that is needed. They are technically private sector, so the SNP does not like them.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5140705+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C705564", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 434.0, "ContributionID": 705564, "EditedText": "SNP members give the impression that they are not actually interested in improvement and that they relish the problems that we have and glory in preaching about what they would do about them. All my life I have heard the SNP promising to spend money. If only they were in power, money would be spent on everything. They have bottomless pits to their pockets. Everybody will be catered for in an independent Scotland, despite its huge structural deficit, despite the economic problems that it would have, despite the fact that the SNP would have to live within the same economic rules as everybody else and would have the same difficulties in managing investment in public sector borrowing as everybody else. We have heard the SNP moan and moan about the absence of new politics in this Parliament. This morning, the absence of new politics is concentrated in their corner of the chamber. We have heard nothing that was constructive or that takes us forward. All we have heard is moaning and whingeing. There is no statesmanship in the motion and no strategy to engage the Parliament in a constructive debate about the variety of mechanisms that might be developed. Let us have a proper debate about how we can take Scotland forward. Let us welcome some of the changes that the Government has announced this morning and consider how we can continue to develop what has been achieved so far. Let us look forward to a Scotland that will be able to satisfy the demands and the needs that exist in our society and dismiss the SNP's partisan, ranting old politics and old-style electioneering.", "EditedTextHTML": "SNP members give the impression that they are not actually interested in improvement and that they relish the problems that we have and glory in preaching about what they would do about them. All my life I have heard

the SNP promising to spend money. If only they were in power, money would be spent on everything. They have bottomless pits to their pockets. Everybody will be catered for in an independent Scotland, despite its huge structural deficit, despite the economic problems that it would have, despite the fact that the SNP would have to live within the same economic rules as everybody else and would have the same difficulties in managing investment in public sector borrowing as everybody else.

We have heard the SNP moan and moan about the absence of new politics in this Parliament. This morning, the absence of new politics is concentrated in their corner of the chamber. We have heard nothing that was constructive or that takes us forward. All we have heard is moaning and whingeing. There is no statesmanship in the motion and no strategy to engage the Parliament in a constructive debate about the variety of mechanisms that might be developed.

Let us have a proper debate about how we can take Scotland forward. Let us welcome some of the changes that the Government has announced this morning and consider how we can continue to develop what has been achieved so far. Let us look forward to a Scotland that will be able to satisfy the demands and the needs that exist in our society and dismiss the SNP's partisan, ranting old politics and old-style electioneering.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5140705+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C705575", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 457.0, "ContributionID": 705575, "EditedText": "I thank Mr McAveety for that significant contribution. I remind him that I scored a number of goals last night.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank Mr McAveety for that significant contribution. I remind him that I scored a number of goals last night.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5140705+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1996E124P211C705576", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAveety, Mr Frank", "ID": 1996, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Shettleston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Local Government", "SpeakerName": "Frank McAveety", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McAveety: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 459.0, "ContributionID": 705576, "EditedText": "They were assists.", "EditedTextHTML": "They were assists.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5140705+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2038E191P344C705578", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Smith, Iain", "ID": 2038, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Iain Smith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Parliament (Iain Smith): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 463.0, "ContributionID": 705578, "EditedText": "How does Andrew Wilson reconcile his criticism of our position on PFI with the wording in our manifesto? Our manifesto says: \"We will also seek the appropriate alteration to the current unnecessary restrictive Treasury rules regarding investment . . . We will also separate out the maintenance and service contracts and subject them to ‘Best Value' criteria.\" The proposal that is part of the partnership agreement also seeks to change the Treasury rules and to ensure best value. The two statements are virtually identical. I cannot see how we have sold out our principles by bringing forward a new approach to PFI in the partnership agreement.", "EditedTextHTML": "How does Andrew Wilson reconcile his criticism of our position on PFI with the wording in our manifesto? Our manifesto says:

\"We will also seek the appropriate alteration to the current unnecessary restrictive Treasury rules regarding investment . . . We will also separate out the maintenance and service contracts and subject them to ‘Best Value' criteria.\"

The proposal that is part of the partnership agreement also seeks to change the Treasury rules and to ensure best value. The two statements are virtually identical. I cannot see how we have sold out our principles by bringing forward a new approach to PFI in the partnership agreement.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5140705+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C705579", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 465.0, "ContributionID": 705579, "EditedText": "I congratulate the Deputy Minister for Parliament on his exacting victory in the negotiations for the coalition. Clearly, it was a wonderful victory, but if he will continue to pay attention to the debate I will remind him of a quotation from the Liberal Democrat manifesto. It said: \"We will seek to invest in capital projects for better hospitals, schools, and house building programmes . . . to replace the expensive and inefficient Private Finance Initiative agreements.\" If such agreements were expensive and inefficient before the election, why are they no longer expensive and inefficient?", "EditedTextHTML": "I congratulate the Deputy Minister for Parliament on his exacting victory in the negotiations for the coalition. Clearly, it was a wonderful victory, but if he will continue to pay attention to the debate I will remind him of a quotation from the Liberal Democrat manifesto. It said:

\"We will seek to invest in capital projects for better hospitals, schools, and house building programmes . . . to replace the expensive and inefficient Private Finance Initiative agreements.\"

If such agreements were expensive and inefficient before the election, why are they no longer expensive and inefficient?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5140705+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C705582", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 471.0, "ContributionID": 705582, "EditedText": "Please do so briefly, Mr Wilson.", "EditedTextHTML": "Please do so briefly, Mr Wilson.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5140705+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C705583", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 473.0, "ContributionID": 705583, "EditedText": "The choice for us in thisParliament is limited. We have the option of exacting private finance only if we are to lever in some capital, because there are no borrowing powers. We have no options in this Parliament because the powers that have been conferred on us are limited. If we are to go ahead with private finance, I suggest that we adopt the public service trust model and use the pathfinder and Scottish Homes ideas. Members should accept the reality that the SNP is ahead of the game and is in the European main stream of what is going on. Keith Raffan is laughing, but he must admit that he does not know what he is talking about. The reality is that there is a new right alliance from the Liberal Democrats right round the—Interruption. The level of abuse from Mr Raffan throughout the debate has been disgusting. My mum and dad respect the guy; wait till I tell them what is going on. There is a new right alliance throughout this chamber, and the reality of what is going on in public services today is that those guys have won. As I said at the start of my speech, the ghost of Mrs Thatcher—even though she is not dead; it is a living ghost—is living on in this chamber, and members of all the other parties are complicit.", "EditedTextHTML": "The choice for us in this

Parliament is limited. We have the option of exacting private finance only if we are to lever in some capital, because there are no borrowing powers. We have no options in this Parliament because the powers that have been conferred on us are limited.

If we are to go ahead with private finance, I suggest that we adopt the public service trust model and use the pathfinder and Scottish Homes ideas. Members should accept the reality that the SNP is ahead of the game and is in the European main stream of what is going on.

Keith Raffan is laughing, but he must admit that he does not know what he is talking about. The reality is that there is a new right alliance from the Liberal Democrats right round the—[Interruption.] The level of abuse from Mr Raffan throughout the debate has been disgusting. My mum and dad respect the guy; wait till I tell them what is going on.

There is a new right alliance throughout this chamber, and the reality of what is going on in public services today is that those guys have won. As I said at the start of my speech, the ghost of Mrs Thatcher—even though she is not dead; it is a living ghost—is living on in this chamber, and members of all the other parties are complicit.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5140705+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1828E200P487C705587", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacDonald, Margo", "ID": 1828, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margo MacDonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms MacDonald: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 482.0, "ContributionID": 705587, "EditedText": "That is what I said.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is what I said.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5140705+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C705590", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Galbraith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 488.0, "ContributionID": 705590, "EditedText": "But of course I will give way. I would be delighted.", "EditedTextHTML": "But of course I will give way. I would be delighted.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5140705+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1828E200P487C705591", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacDonald, Margo", "ID": 1828, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margo MacDonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms MacDonald: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 490.0, "ContributionID": 705591, "EditedText": "I think that we are agreed on one point. This is too serious a matter to brandish about without a route out of what is still a huge dilemma. Let us not bother about how huge it is; it is a big dilemma. I did not go through the list of six points in the letter because there was not enough time, but Mr Galbraith will agree that the whole contract needs further examination. During the election campaign, Mr Galbraith was big enough to say that he would look again at the question of pensions, and it looks as though he succeeded in that. Can we have some sort of retrospective look at this contract, particularly at the land deals? We know that there is another land deal coming up at Lauriston.", "EditedTextHTML": "I think that we are agreed on one point. This is too serious a matter to brandish about without a route out of what is still a huge dilemma. Let us not bother about how huge it is; it is a big dilemma. I did not go through the list of six points in the letter because there was not enough time, but Mr Galbraith will agree that the whole contract needs further examination.

During the election campaign, Mr Galbraith was big enough to say that he would look again at the question of pensions, and it looks as though he succeeded in that. Can we have some sort of retrospective look at this contract, particularly at the land deals? We know that there is another land deal coming up at Lauriston.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5140705+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C705594", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Galbraith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 496.0, "ContributionID": 705594, "EditedText": "As I explained, that level playing field was top-sliced off AEF. It will no longer be top-sliced and will go directly to the local authority, which can make its own choices. I realise that I do not have too much time, so I shall move on to say something about the history of public-private partnerships. They were first mooted by Joel Barnett many years ago and partly adopted by the Ryrie rules; the first person to introduce them was, in fact, John Prescott. At that stage, the Tories opposed them because they said that they were not privatisation. The reality is that public-private partnerships are not about privatisation, but about using private sector involvement to deliver services. They are not about taking over services, but about how to get best value for money, and we must remember that all these projects go ahead only if they are value for money. I have heard a lot of nonsense about how much more such schemes cost in terms of public borrowing. Over the lifetime of the contract, they are value for money. There is no great legacy left at the end of them at all; they are actually cheaper in the long run. The SNP position is based in dogma. SNP members say that they want to bare their breasts, pay more and waste more of the taxpayer's money, just because of an ideological position. They do not want to make savings; they want public services to waste money rather than to deliver services. That position should not be acceptable. One of the theories behind such thinking is, I suppose, that they want to own those assets; that seems to be some kind of great totem for them. We can own those assets. I heard Mrs Ullrich saying that there is no option to own the royal infirmary. Has she read the business plan? It is written into the full business case, for goodness sake. There are three options. We could walk away from the scheme; that is sometimes a good option, as it gives us the flexibility to move on. We could continue with another contract to maintain the building; many people think that that option is the best one. Alternatively, we could take over the facilities. That is written into the contract. If we are going to have a debate on this, please let us base it on fact and not on any more rubbish. Please let us read some of the documents.", "EditedTextHTML": "As I explained, that level playing field was top-sliced off AEF. It will no longer be top-sliced and will go directly to the local authority, which can make its own choices.

I realise that I do not have too much time, so I shall move on to say something about the history of public-private partnerships. They were first mooted by Joel Barnett many years ago and partly adopted by the Ryrie rules; the first person to introduce them was, in fact, John Prescott. At that stage, the Tories opposed them because they said that they were not privatisation. The reality is that public-private partnerships are not about privatisation, but about using private sector involvement to deliver services. They are not about taking over services, but about how to get best value for money, and we must remember that all these projects go ahead only if they are value for money.

I have heard a lot of nonsense about how much more such schemes cost in terms of public borrowing. Over the lifetime of the contract, they are value for money. There is no great legacy left at the end of them at all; they are actually cheaper in the long run.

The SNP position is based in dogma. SNP members say that they want to bare their breasts, pay more and waste more of the taxpayer's money, just because of an ideological position. They do not want to make savings; they want public services to waste money rather than to deliver services. That position should not be acceptable. One of the theories behind such thinking is, I suppose, that they want to own those assets; that seems to be some kind of great totem for them. We can own those assets. I heard Mrs Ullrich saying that there is no option to own the royal infirmary. Has she read the business plan? It is written into the full business case, for goodness sake.

There are three options. We could walk away from the scheme; that is sometimes a good option, as it gives us the flexibility to move on. We could continue with another contract to maintain the

building; many people think that that option is the best one. Alternatively, we could take over the facilities. That is written into the contract. If we are going to have a debate on this, please let us base it on fact and not on any more rubbish. Please let us read some of the documents.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5140705+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C705595", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 498.0, "ContributionID": 705595, "EditedText": "I am grateful to Mr Galbraith for giving way. Will the buy-back arrangements always be in the public domain for every PFI contract?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful to Mr Galbraith for giving way. Will the buy-back arrangements always be in the public domain for every PFI contract?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5140705+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C705598", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Galbraith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 504.0, "ContributionID": 705598, "EditedText": "I will not give way again. Much as I love Margo, she ought to sit down. All those documents are in the public domain. The only trouble is that nobody in the SNP has actually read them; it would be a good idea if someone did. People have mentioned the terms and conditions for staff. One of the other changes that we made was to put in a condition whereby all public-private partnerships must in future involve the unions in discussions about the contractors that will be involved and the terms and conditions for staff in the event of a transfer of services. At Hairmyres, we have set up a partnership agreement, with the unions, that guarantees staff their pensions; the position is on-going at the royal infirmary. That is the way in which we have changed things. PFI is about getting private sector money in so that we can deliver public services. Either we can have our hospitals today, or we can almost never have them at all.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will not give way again. Much as I love Margo, she ought to sit down.

All those documents are in the public domain. The only trouble is that nobody in the SNP has actually read them; it would be a good idea if someone did.

People have mentioned the terms and conditions for staff. One of the other changes that we made was to put in a condition whereby all public-private partnerships must in future involve the unions in discussions about the contractors that will be involved and the terms and conditions for staff in the event of a transfer of services. At Hairmyres, we have set up a partnership agreement, with the unions, that guarantees staff their pensions; the position is on-going at the royal infirmary.

That is the way in which we have changed things. PFI is about getting private sector money in so that we can deliver public services. Either we can have our hospitals today, or we can almost never have them at all.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5140705+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C705605", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26660, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 518.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 518.0, "ID": 26660, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 519.0, "ContributionID": 705605, "EditedText": "The next item of business is consideration of the business motion from the Parliamentary Bureau, which sets out the business programme. As there is no amendment to the motion, the debate is restricted to 10 minutes, with one speaker for and one against. Any member who wishes to speak should indicate that by pressing the speak button now.", "EditedTextHTML": "The next item of business is consideration of the business motion from the Parliamentary Bureau, which sets out the business programme. As there is no amendment to the motion, the debate is restricted to 10 minutes, with one speaker for and one against. Any member who wishes to speak should indicate that by pressing the speak button now.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5140705+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C705607", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26660, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 518.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 518.0, "ID": 26660, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 524.0, "ContributionID": 705607, "EditedText": "There are no speakers against the motion. The question is, that motion S1M-71, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "There are no speakers against the motion. The question is, that motion S1M-71, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5140705+00:00" }, { "ID": "C705609", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26660, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 518.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 518.0, "ID": 26660, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 527.0, "ContributionID": 705609, "EditedText": "Question, That the meeting be now adjourned until 2.30 pm today, put and agreed to.—Lord James Douglas-Hamilton.", "EditedTextHTML": "Question, That the meeting be now adjourned until 2.30 pm today, put and agreed to.—[Lord James Douglas-Hamilton.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5140705+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C705613", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26661, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 531.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26662, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 534.0, "QuestionHeading": "Scottish Arts Council", "QuestionHeadingID": 26663, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 535.0, "DisplayOrder": 535.0, "ID": 26663, "ParentID": 26662 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "1. Michael Russell (South of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 536.0, "ContributionID": 705613, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it intends to bring forward proposals for a review of the structure and function of the Scottish Arts Council. (S1O-82)", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it intends to bring forward proposals for a review of the structure and function of the Scottish Arts Council. (S1O-82)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5140705+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C705621", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26661, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 531.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26662, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 534.0, "QuestionHeading": "Voluntary Sector", "QuestionHeadingID": 26665, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 551.0, "DisplayOrder": 551.0, "ID": 26665, "ParentID": 26662 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Communities (Ms Wendy Alexander): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 554.0, "ContributionID": 705621, "EditedText": "I will ask the Scottish Parliament to consider endorsing \"The Scottish Compact\" at an early stage. I plan to build on that document to promote a positive partnership with the voluntary sector.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will ask the Scottish Parliament to consider endorsing \"The Scottish Compact\" at an early stage. I plan to build on that document to promote a positive partnership with the voluntary sector.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5140705+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C705624", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26661, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 531.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26662, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 534.0, "QuestionHeading": "Tourist Boards", "QuestionHeadingID": 26666, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 560.0, "DisplayOrder": 560.0, "ID": 26666, "ParentID": 26662 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "4. Bruce Crawford (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 561.0, "ContributionID": 705624, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has to ensure that the funding of area tourist boards operates on a sustainable basis for the next financial year. (S1O-72) The Deputy Minister for Highlands and Islands and Gaelic (Mr Alasdair Morrison): I intend to seek views as to whether any change should be made in the method by which area tourist boards are funded.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has to ensure that the funding of area tourist boards operates on a sustainable basis for the next financial year. (S1O-72) The Deputy Minister for Highlands and Islands and Gaelic (Mr Alasdair Morrison): I intend to seek views as to whether any change should be made in the method by which area tourist boards are funded.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5140705+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2029E47P167C705631", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26661, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 531.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26662, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 534.0, "QuestionHeading": "Early-years Provision", "QuestionHeadingID": 26668, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 574.0, "DisplayOrder": 574.0, "ID": 26668, "ParentID": 26662 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Henry, Hugh", "ID": 2029, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Hugh Henry", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Hugh Henry: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 577.0, "ContributionID": 705631, "EditedText": "As well as providing resources for the training of staff in the early-years sector, will the minister consider some of the models of provision that are currently available, such as the excellent Foxlea centre in my constituency, which was inspected recently? Those centres are flexible models of provision that are open much longer than traditional nurseries and in which nursery nurses play a fundamental and responsible role. Will he encourage that type of provision?", "EditedTextHTML": "As well as providing resources for the training of staff in the early-years sector, will the minister consider some of the models of provision that are currently available, such as the excellent Foxlea centre in my constituency, which was inspected recently? Those centres are flexible models of provision that are open much longer than traditional nurseries and in which nursery nurses play a fundamental and responsible role. Will he encourage that type of provision?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5140705+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C705632", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26661, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 531.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26662, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 534.0, "QuestionHeading": "Early-years Provision", "QuestionHeadingID": 26668, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 574.0, "DisplayOrder": 574.0, "ID": 26668, "ParentID": 26662 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Galbraith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 579.0, "ContributionID": 705632, "EditedText": "Yes, I certainly will. Perhaps Mr Henry knows that I visited a family centre in his former local authority and was impressed by its flexibility and the range of services on offer: that is what we want. Our policy for children is based on the child, but it must also be flexible, to ensure that we meet the needs of the parents as well. Provided that we keep those two things in mind— the needs of the parent, the needs of the child, which are paramount—I am certain that we will get it right well into the future.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes, I certainly will. Perhaps Mr Henry knows that I visited a family centre in his former local authority and was impressed by its flexibility and the range of services on offer: that is what we want. Our policy for children is based on the child, but it must also be flexible, to ensure that we meet the needs of the parents as well. Provided that we keep those two things in mind— the needs of the parent, the needs of the child, which are paramount—I am certain that we will get it right well into the future.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5140705+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2100E64P254C705640", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26661, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 531.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26662, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 534.0, "QuestionHeading": "Fishing (Safety)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26670, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 592.0, "DisplayOrder": 592.0, "ID": 26670, "ParentID": 26662 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Home Robertson, John", "ID": 2100, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Lothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "John Home Robertson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Home Robertson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 597.0, "ContributionID": 705640, "EditedText": "We should focus on our own responsibilities in this Parliament. Mr Lochhead will understand that maritime safety is a reserved responsibility. The Deputy Prime Minister, John Prescott, who has overall responsibility in this area, announced that a fishing vessel safety scheme is to be reinstated. We are awaiting further details and will take a special interest in the implications of any new scheme for the Scottish fleet.", "EditedTextHTML": "We should focus on our own responsibilities in this Parliament. Mr Lochhead will understand that maritime safety is a reserved responsibility.

The Deputy Prime Minister, John Prescott, who has overall responsibility in this area, announced that a fishing vessel safety scheme is to be reinstated. We are awaiting further details and will take a special interest in the implications of any new scheme for the Scottish fleet.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1876E194P490C705651", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26661, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 531.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26662, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 534.0, "QuestionHeading": "Teenage Pregnancies", "QuestionHeadingID": 26673, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 619.0, "DisplayOrder": 619.0, "ID": 26673, "ParentID": 26662 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Marwick, Tricia", "ID": 1876, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tricia Marwick", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tricia Marwick: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 622.0, "ContributionID": 705651, "EditedText": "Does the minister agree that poverty coupled with low expectation and lack of self-esteem are key factors affecting the level of teenage pregnancies? Will she join me in condemning the rhetoric of her new Labour colleagues south of the border, whose solution is to force single young mothers into supervised hostels, thereby continuing—not solving—social exclusion?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the minister agree that poverty coupled with low expectation and lack of self-esteem are key factors affecting the level of teenage pregnancies? Will she join me in condemning the rhetoric of her new Labour colleagues south of the border, whose solution is to force single young mothers into supervised hostels, thereby continuing—not solving—social exclusion?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C705654", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26661, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 531.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26662, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 534.0, "QuestionHeading": "Teenage Pregnancies", "QuestionHeadingID": 26673, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 619.0, "DisplayOrder": 619.0, "ID": 26673, "ParentID": 26662 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 628.0, "ContributionID": 705654, "EditedText": "Fifty million pounds has been allocated to the health demonstration project that I mentioned earlier. However, it is important that we spend the time in this chamber discussing what the Scottish Parliament will do instead of talking about what is going on in other parts of the UK. We have an opportunity to do that with this very important issue.", "EditedTextHTML": "Fifty million pounds has been allocated to the health demonstration project that I mentioned earlier. However, it is important that we spend the time in this chamber discussing what the Scottish Parliament will do instead of talking about what is going on in other parts of the UK. We have an opportunity to do that with this very important issue.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2154E194P299C705664", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26661, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 531.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26662, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 534.0, "QuestionHeading": "Tuition Fees", "QuestionHeadingID": 26676, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 646.0, "DisplayOrder": 646.0, "ID": 26676, "ParentID": 26662 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stephen, Nicol", "ID": 2154, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Nicol Stephen", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicol Stephen: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 651.0, "ContributionID": 705664, "EditedText": "Somewhere between £8 million and £9 million is being spent on student access funding. In the terms of the partnership agreement that figure will rise to £14 million for those in financial hardship.", "EditedTextHTML": "Somewhere between £8 million and £9 million is being spent on student access funding. In the terms of the partnership agreement that figure will rise to £14 million for those in financial hardship.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C705675", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26661, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 531.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26662, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 534.0, "QuestionHeading": "Dumfries and Galloway", "QuestionHeadingID": 26680, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 674.0, "DisplayOrder": 674.0, "ID": 26680, "ParentID": 26662 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Justice (Angus Mackay): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 677.0, "ContributionID": 705675, "EditedText": "There are no specific plans at present affecting Dumfries and Galloway but a review of the structure of police and fire services in Scotland is under way.", "EditedTextHTML": "There are no specific plans at present affecting Dumfries and Galloway but a review of the structure of police and fire services in Scotland is under way.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1863E284P532C705678", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26661, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 531.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26662, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 534.0, "QuestionHeading": "Domestic Violence", "QuestionHeadingID": 26681, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 683.0, "DisplayOrder": 683.0, "ID": 26681, "ParentID": 26662 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Cunningham, Roseanna", "ID": 1863, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Perth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Roseanna Cunningham", "SpeakerDisplayName": "20. Roseanna Cunningham (Perth) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 684.0, "ContributionID": 705678, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has within the Scottish criminal justice system to address the issue of domestic violence. (S1O-98) The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice (Mr Jim Wallace): We are determined to tackle domestic violence effectively. The Scottish Partnership on Domestic Violence is developing a multi-agency strategy for tackling this very real and debilitating problem.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has within the Scottish criminal justice system to address the issue of domestic violence. (S1O-98) The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice (Mr Jim Wallace): We are determined to tackle domestic violence effectively. The Scottish Partnership on Domestic Violence is developing a multi-agency strategy for tackling this very real and debilitating problem.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C705683", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26661, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 531.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26662, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 534.0, "QuestionHeading": "Local Authorities", "QuestionHeadingID": 26682, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 690.0, "DisplayOrder": 690.0, "ID": 26682, "ParentID": 26662 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 695.0, "ContributionID": 705683, "EditedText": "I am well aware of Mr McAllion's concern on those issues, which I have also discussed this week with Kate MacLean. They are serious issues; I have discussed them with officials and, over the summer, I intend to examine them and other issues further, partly as a result of the recommendations of the McIntosh commission.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am well aware of Mr McAllion's concern on those issues, which I have also discussed this week with Kate MacLean. They are serious issues; I have discussed them with officials and, over the summer, I intend to examine them and other issues further, partly as a result of the recommendations of the McIntosh commission.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C705693", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26683, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 697.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26684, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "QuestionHeading": "Education", "QuestionHeadingID": 26686, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 718.0, "DisplayOrder": 718.0, "ID": 26686, "ParentID": 26684 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "2. David McLetchie (Lothians) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 719.0, "ContributionID": 705693, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what failures of educational provision by local authorities the creation of a statutory duty on them to raise standards in the proposed education bill is intended to redress. (S1O-86) The First Minister (Donald Dewar): Mr McLetchie will accept that if we do not compete successfully and do not continue to raise standards, we will get into difficulties. Our aim is to raise standards in all parts of Scottish education. The education bill will contain provisions that are intended to facilitate that process and I would like to think that even the Scottish Tory party will support it.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what failures of educational provision by local authorities the creation of a statutory duty on them to raise standards in the proposed education bill is intended to redress. (S1O-86) The First Minister (Donald Dewar): Mr McLetchie will accept that if we do not compete successfully and do not continue to raise standards, we will get into difficulties. Our aim is to raise standards in all parts of Scottish education. The education bill will contain provisions that are intended to facilitate that process and I would like to think that even the Scottish Tory party will support it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C705692", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26683, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 697.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26684, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "QuestionHeading": "Economy", "QuestionHeadingID": 26685, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 701.0, "DisplayOrder": 701.0, "ID": 26685, "ParentID": 26684 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 716.0, "ContributionID": 705692, "EditedText": "I am grateful for Keith Raffan's question because I know that he is interested in those matters. First, the link that we have secured between lifelong learning and enterprise will mean that there is a basis for co-operation. Secondly, I want the commercialisation of science to be a top issue in the profile of the Scottish economy in the next few years. I hope to enter discussions with not only industry and higher and further education but with the new Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee in the Parliament to ensure that we can make products in laboratories become products of successful Scottish companies.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful for Keith Raffan's question because I know that he is interested in those matters.

First, the link that we have secured between lifelong learning and enterprise will mean that there is a basis for co-operation. Secondly, I want the commercialisation of science to be a top issue in the profile of the Scottish economy in the next few years. I hope to enter discussions with not only industry and higher and further education but with the new Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee in the Parliament to ensure that we can make products in laboratories become products of successful Scottish companies.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C705696", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26683, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 697.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26684, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "QuestionHeading": "Education", "QuestionHeadingID": 26686, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 718.0, "DisplayOrder": 718.0, "ID": 26686, "ParentID": 26684 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 725.0, "ContributionID": 705696, "EditedText": "I notice that the First Minister did not answer the question and did not advise us whether there would be sanctions to back up the proposed statutory duty. Moving into the 21st century, the First Minister will be aware that there were reports this morning that a number of local education authorities in England are being rapped over the knuckles by his opposite number down south for spending too much money on red tape and not enough on schools. Will the First Minister please tell us how he intends to ensure that that situation does not occur in Scotland and that additional funding is directed towards our schools and not to expanding council bureaucracy?", "EditedTextHTML": "I notice that the First Minister did not answer the question and did not advise us whether there would be sanctions to back up the proposed statutory duty.

Moving into the 21st century, the First Minister will be aware that there were reports this morning that a number of local education authorities in England are being rapped over the knuckles by his opposite number down south for spending too much money on red tape and not enough on schools. Will the First Minister please tell us how he intends to ensure that that situation does not occur in Scotland and that additional funding is directed towards our schools and not to expanding council bureaucracy?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1926E190P479C705698", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26683, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 697.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26684, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "QuestionHeading": "Education", "QuestionHeadingID": 26686, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 718.0, "DisplayOrder": 718.0, "ID": 26686, "ParentID": 26684 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Adam, Brian", "ID": 1926, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Adam", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Brian Adam (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 729.0, "ContributionID": 705698, "EditedText": "Does the First Minister agree that there is some danger in continually putting further duties on education authorities, rather than allowing them discretion to act locally? Does he agree that there is little point in local authorities dealing with education if we continually restrict their ability to act locally?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the First Minister agree that there is some danger in continually putting further duties on education authorities, rather than allowing them discretion to act locally? Does he agree that there is little point in local authorities dealing with education if we continually restrict their ability to act locally?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2123E103P242C705704", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26683, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 697.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26684, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "QuestionHeading": "Roads Review", "QuestionHeadingID": 26687, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 733.0, "DisplayOrder": 733.0, "ID": 26687, "ParentID": 26684 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Chisholm, Malcolm", "ID": 2123, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh North and Leith" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Malcolm Chisholm", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 742.0, "ContributionID": 705704, "EditedText": "I welcome the fact that, for the first time, we will have a road programme that is based on an integrated transport policy rather than an uncosted and unaffordable wish list such as we had under the previous Government. Will the minister undertake to consider safety and environmental factors when making decisions about road developments?", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the fact that, for the first time, we will have a road programme that is based on an integrated transport policy rather than an uncosted and unaffordable wish list such as we had under the previous Government. Will the minister undertake to consider safety and environmental factors when making decisions about road developments?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C705706", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26683, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 697.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26684, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "QuestionHeading": "Roads Review", "QuestionHeadingID": 26687, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 733.0, "DisplayOrder": 733.0, "ID": 26687, "ParentID": 26684 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan (Falkirk West): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 746.0, "ContributionID": 705706, "EditedText": "We have been waiting a long time for the roads review and, in some cases, it has been a very long time indeed. When I was first elected to the House of Commons, I remember people in the Scottish Office talking about a motorway between Haggs and Stepps. A quarter of a century later we are still waiting. They are still talking about it and they have apparently not even decided on the line of route.", "EditedTextHTML": "We have been waiting a long time for the roads review and, in some cases, it has been a very long time indeed. When I was first elected to the House of Commons, I remember people in the Scottish Office talking about a motorway between Haggs and Stepps. A quarter of a century later we are still waiting. They are still talking about it and they have apparently not even decided on the line of route.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C705711", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Financial Issues", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26688, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 756.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 756.0, "ID": 26688, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 757.0, "ContributionID": 705711, "EditedText": "We now move to the next item, which is a ministerial statement on financial issues. There will be no interventions during this statement because the minister will take questions at the end.", "EditedTextHTML": "We now move to the next item, which is a ministerial statement on financial issues. There will be no interventions during this statement because the minister will take questions at the end.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C705712", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Financial Issues", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26688, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 756.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 756.0, "ID": 26688, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Finance (Mr Jack McConnell): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 760.0, "ContributionID": 705712, "EditedText": "I wish to make a statement on two aspects of our financial affairs: first, the procedures for this Parliament to approve expenditure by the Executive, for our accounting to Parliament for that expenditure, for the auditing of those accounts, and for the accountability of officials undertaking the expenditure; secondly, the infrastructure required to support the tax-varying power of the Scottish Parliament. Moving on from the debates and disagreements of the past four weeks, I am pleased to have this opportunity to address our financial affairs. As Minister for Finance, I want to develop an open and constructive dialogue with the new Parliament and its committees. We have huge financial responsibilities to spend our money wisely, to decide our priorities openly, and to account for our use of the nation's resources through this chamber to the people of Scotland. We should seek to ensure minimum waste and maximum output, minimum duplication and maximum partnership in our financial dealings. Scottish taxpayers rightly expect the new Executive and this Parliament to spend money wisely and to try to extract more from the pot that we inherit. As Minister for Finance, I intend to do all I can to achieve that goal. The legislative programme announced by the First Minister last week included a bill on financial procedures and auditing. Indeed, the Scotland Act 1998 requires this Parliament to legislate on those matters. However, the act does not go into great detail. It sets out a framework—no more than that. It is for this Parliament to decide on its own detailed procedures. That is, of course, right. As the First Minister said in his statement, the bill \"will go to the heart of the relationship between the Parliament and the Executive\".—Official Report, 16 June 1999; Vol 1, c 407. In that relationship, we want the Parliament to be constructive, but we also want our decisions as an Executive to be transparent and sure of Parliament's support. I am particularly keen to endorse the new political system that we are developing here in Scotland and, to emphasise that new approach, I propose that the draft bill on financial procedures and auditing arrangements be named the accountability, budgeting and audit bill, to reflect that.We also want the Parliament to have a world- class financial management system. We want a framework that helps to ensure that the Parliament's budget is spent to the best possible effect. We must have a system that encourages Parliament and the Executive constantly to secure the most from our financial resources. At the same time, we have to ensure that at all times the people's money is handled with the highest standards of honesty and integrity. I hope that, in time, other Parliaments will look to us when searching for the best ways in which to manage the financial affairs of government. On this matter, we cannot afford delay. The transitional financial arrangements under which we are operating expire next March. We must have our own system in place well before then if we are going to be able to continue to spend money. Fortunately, we have a flying start. In February last year, the financial issues advisory group was established as a sub-committee of the consultative steering group. Its task was to make proposals that \"the Scottish Parliament might be invited to adopt for handling financial issues\". Over the following 12 months or so, that group of finance professionals and other experts developed ideas that address the range of financial issues to be faced by this Parliament. The group's report covers everything from setting budgets to value for money audits. The group's recommendations were endorsed by the CSG and have been welcomed by specialists and lay people alike. I would like to add my thanks to the members of the group. Their work has been critical to the future success of this Parliament, and I am very pleased to welcome members of the group here today to view the debate on this statement. The group's recommendations give us the chance to take financial issues away from the preserve of the specialists and to make them accessible to the Parliament and the people of Scotland. The new Scottish Executive has considered the group's report in the light of Parliament's need to set up a sound system of financial management, and this Executive warmly welcomes accountability for its stewardship of taxpayers' money. Holding the Executive to account is a basic function of any Parliament, one which goes far beyond the day-to-day knockabout of party politics, which we saw this morning. We intend to broadly accept the report and will be considering, with the Finance and Audit Committees, how best to implement the recommendations. Before we finalise our proposals for legislation, I will this weekend place before the Finance and Audit Committees a memorandum setting out our proposals to accept the recommendations of the financial issues advisory group, and proposals for their detailed implementation. My officials and I will be available to the committees before the recess, so that they can discuss the details with us. Among the matters that I want to draw to the committees' attention are the advantages and disadvantages of primary and secondary legislation for budget approvals and amendments, and the management of and responsibility for public audit in Scotland. We hope that the committees will be able to give an initial response before the summer recess. That will enable the Executive to adjust its proposals, if that is necessary, before going out to wider consultation over the summer. It is our intention to introduce a bill immediately after the summer recess, with a view to seeking the approval of the Parliament by Christmas. That timetable will result in the Parliament's having sufficient time to consider the Executive's spending proposals for the year 2000-01. Expenditure decisions on Government and public service priorities here in Scotland are a central feature of our new devolution settlement. It is vital that citizens of Scotland are aware of, and are included in, our annual deliberations on the Scottish budget. I therefore intend to invite the Parliament's committees to comment on proposals for wider public consultation at an appropriate stage in our budget decision-making timetable. Transparency and accountability do not stop at the doors of this chamber. We must integrate our deliberations into the lives of Scots, who experience the impact of our decisions in their daily lives. I now turn to the Executive's proposals for the tax-varying power—the power to vary the basic rate of income tax in Scotland up or down, by a maximum of 3p in the pound. On 6 May, the Scottish electorate said that it did not support the use of that power, and we are determined to focus our efforts on maximising the benefits to Scotland of planned increases in spending that have already been announced. The comprehensive spending review has delivered a very generous overall settlement for Scotland. By 2001-02, public spending in real terms on programmes for which this Parliament is responsible will be at a record high. However, we have made it clear—in the partnership agreement and subsequently—that we will not use the tax- varying power during the lifetime of this Parliament and will not impose a new income tax burden on ordinary Scots. Against that background, we have nevertheless been considering what level of infrastructure, if any, we should maintain to take account of the possibility that a future Scottish Executive might decide to use the tax-varying power. We have concluded that it would be financially irresponsible and politically unacceptable to abandon all the implementation work that has already been done. If we were to do that, it would mean that a new Administration would have to wait up to three years before it could implement the power— obviously, we would not want to deny the Scottish National party that opportunity should it ever succeed in forming an Administration. The period would have to be spent painstakingly—and expensively—repeating all the implementation work that has already been done, but that quickly will go out of date if it is not maintained. In close consultation with Inland Revenue, we have devised an option that would allow the tax to be introduced in the financial year immediately following a Scottish election that was held on the normal cycle—that is to say, in the April following a May election. In practice, that is the first opportunity at which the tax-varying power could be used, as changes cannot be introduced in mid- financial year. The option will involve Inland Revenue, and to a lesser extent the Department of Social Security, in maintaining internally a range of supporting systems, including, in the case of Inland Revenue, a database of Scottish taxpayers. Those systems can be updated and activated quite quickly if a decision is taken to use the tax-varying power. We estimate that, once all outstanding implementation costs have been incurred—those fall mainly in the current year—the option will give rise to an annual running cost of around £2 million to £2.5 million. However, we have decided to halt all other preparations, including the appointment of the additional staff that would have been necessary in other circumstances. That is a prudent decision, which will save vital resources and avoid waste. Indeed, it means that over the lifetime of this Parliament we can expect to realise savings of around £20 million on the provision for implementing and running the tax that was previously included in forward budgets. Our decision to pursue this option will mean that employers of Scottish taxpayers will face significantly less work and cost in preparing for the tax. A typical small employer, for example, will face no additional work or costs until the rate has been varied. Where a computerised payroll is operated, minor changes will be required to keep in step with the Inland Revenue's IT changes, but set-up costs will be less than half of those previously estimated. In conclusion, the course that we are proposing to maintain an infrastructure for the tax-varying power is sensible and pragmatic. Our decision not to use the power in the course of this Parliament will mean lower levels of income tax in Scotland from April 2000, a much-reduced administrative burden for the estimated 91,000 UK employers who have employees who are Scottish taxpayers, and a saving of around £20 million on the tax's implementation and operating costs over the lifetime of the Parliament. We intend to make those resources, which are available as a direct result of our decision not to use the tax-varying power, available for the Holyrood building project. As the First Minister promised, other budgets will not be affected to meet the Holyrood contract. I therefore commend these proposals.", "EditedTextHTML": "I wish to make a statement on two aspects of our financial affairs: first, the procedures for this Parliament to approve expenditure by the Executive, for our accounting to Parliament for that expenditure, for the auditing of those accounts, and for the accountability of officials undertaking the expenditure; secondly, the infrastructure required to support the tax-varying power of the Scottish Parliament.

Moving on from the debates and disagreements of the past four weeks, I am pleased to have this opportunity to address our financial affairs. As Minister for Finance, I want to develop an open and constructive dialogue with the new Parliament and its committees. We have huge financial responsibilities to spend our money wisely, to decide our priorities openly, and to account for our use of the nation's resources through this chamber to the people of Scotland.

We should seek to ensure minimum waste and maximum output, minimum duplication and maximum partnership in our financial dealings. Scottish taxpayers rightly expect the new Executive and this Parliament to spend money wisely and to try to extract more from the pot that we inherit. As Minister for Finance, I intend to do all I can to achieve that goal.

The legislative programme announced by the First Minister last week included a bill on financial procedures and auditing. Indeed, the Scotland Act 1998 requires this Parliament to legislate on those matters. However, the act does not go into great detail. It sets out a framework—no more than that. It is for this Parliament to decide on its own detailed procedures. That is, of course, right. As the First Minister said in his statement, the bill

\"will go to the heart of the relationship between the Parliament and the Executive\".—[Official Report, 16 June 1999; Vol 1, c 407.]

In that relationship, we want the Parliament to be constructive, but we also want our decisions as an Executive to be transparent and sure of Parliament's support. I am particularly keen to endorse the new political system that we are developing here in Scotland and, to emphasise that new approach, I propose that the draft bill on financial procedures and auditing arrangements be named the accountability, budgeting and audit

bill, to reflect that.

We also want the Parliament to have a world- class financial management system. We want a framework that helps to ensure that the Parliament's budget is spent to the best possible effect. We must have a system that encourages Parliament and the Executive constantly to secure the most from our financial resources. At the same time, we have to ensure that at all times the people's money is handled with the highest standards of honesty and integrity. I hope that, in time, other Parliaments will look to us when searching for the best ways in which to manage the financial affairs of government.

On this matter, we cannot afford delay. The transitional financial arrangements under which we are operating expire next March. We must have our own system in place well before then if we are going to be able to continue to spend money. Fortunately, we have a flying start. In February last year, the financial issues advisory group was established as a sub-committee of the consultative steering group. Its task was to make proposals that

\"the Scottish Parliament might be invited to adopt for handling financial issues\".

Over the following 12 months or so, that group of finance professionals and other experts developed ideas that address the range of financial issues to be faced by this Parliament. The group's report covers everything from setting budgets to value for money audits.

The group's recommendations were endorsed by the CSG and have been welcomed by specialists and lay people alike. I would like to add my thanks to the members of the group. Their work has been critical to the future success of this Parliament, and I am very pleased to welcome members of the group here today to view the debate on this statement.

The group's recommendations give us the chance to take financial issues away from the preserve of the specialists and to make them accessible to the Parliament and the people of Scotland. The new Scottish Executive has considered the group's report in the light of Parliament's need to set up a sound system of financial management, and this Executive warmly welcomes accountability for its stewardship of taxpayers' money. Holding the Executive to account is a basic function of any Parliament, one which goes far beyond the day-to-day knockabout of party politics, which we saw this morning. We intend to broadly accept the report and will be considering, with the Finance and Audit Committees, how best to implement the recommendations.

Before we finalise our proposals for legislation, I will this weekend place before the Finance and Audit Committees a memorandum setting out our proposals to accept the recommendations of the financial issues advisory group, and proposals for their detailed implementation. My officials and I will be available to the committees before the recess, so that they can discuss the details with us. Among the matters that I want to draw to the committees' attention are the advantages and disadvantages of primary and secondary legislation for budget approvals and amendments, and the management of and responsibility for public audit in Scotland.

We hope that the committees will be able to give an initial response before the summer recess. That will enable the Executive to adjust its proposals, if that is necessary, before going out to wider consultation over the summer. It is our intention to introduce a bill immediately after the summer recess, with a view to seeking the approval of the Parliament by Christmas. That timetable will result in the Parliament's having sufficient time to consider the Executive's spending proposals for the year 2000-01.

Expenditure decisions on Government and public service priorities here in Scotland are a central feature of our new devolution settlement. It is vital that citizens of Scotland are aware of, and are included in, our annual deliberations on the Scottish budget. I therefore intend to invite the Parliament's committees to comment on proposals for wider public consultation at an appropriate stage in our budget decision-making timetable. Transparency and accountability do not stop at the doors of this chamber. We must integrate our deliberations into the lives of Scots, who experience the impact of our decisions in their daily lives.

I now turn to the Executive's proposals for the tax-varying power—the power to vary the basic rate of income tax in Scotland up or down, by a maximum of 3p in the pound. On 6 May, the Scottish electorate said that it did not support the use of that power, and we are determined to focus our efforts on maximising the benefits to Scotland of planned increases in spending that have already been announced.

The comprehensive spending review has delivered a very generous overall settlement for Scotland. By 2001-02, public spending in real terms on programmes for which this Parliament is responsible will be at a record high. However, we have made it clear—in the partnership agreement and subsequently—that we will not use the tax- varying power during the lifetime of this Parliament and will not impose a new income tax burden on ordinary Scots.

Against that background, we have nevertheless been considering what level of infrastructure, if

any, we should maintain to take account of the possibility that a future Scottish Executive might decide to use the tax-varying power. We have concluded that it would be financially irresponsible and politically unacceptable to abandon all the implementation work that has already been done. If we were to do that, it would mean that a new Administration would have to wait up to three years before it could implement the power— obviously, we would not want to deny the Scottish National party that opportunity should it ever succeed in forming an Administration. The period would have to be spent painstakingly—and expensively—repeating all the implementation work that has already been done, but that quickly will go out of date if it is not maintained.

In close consultation with Inland Revenue, we have devised an option that would allow the tax to be introduced in the financial year immediately following a Scottish election that was held on the normal cycle—that is to say, in the April following a May election. In practice, that is the first opportunity at which the tax-varying power could be used, as changes cannot be introduced in mid- financial year.

The option will involve Inland Revenue, and to a lesser extent the Department of Social Security, in maintaining internally a range of supporting systems, including, in the case of Inland Revenue, a database of Scottish taxpayers. Those systems can be updated and activated quite quickly if a decision is taken to use the tax-varying power. We estimate that, once all outstanding implementation costs have been incurred—those fall mainly in the current year—the option will give rise to an annual running cost of around £2 million to £2.5 million.

However, we have decided to halt all other preparations, including the appointment of the additional staff that would have been necessary in other circumstances. That is a prudent decision, which will save vital resources and avoid waste. Indeed, it means that over the lifetime of this Parliament we can expect to realise savings of around £20 million on the provision for implementing and running the tax that was previously included in forward budgets.

Our decision to pursue this option will mean that employers of Scottish taxpayers will face significantly less work and cost in preparing for the tax. A typical small employer, for example, will face no additional work or costs until the rate has been varied. Where a computerised payroll is operated, minor changes will be required to keep in step with the Inland Revenue's IT changes, but set-up costs will be less than half of those previously estimated.

In conclusion, the course that we are proposing to maintain an infrastructure for the tax-varying power is sensible and pragmatic. Our decision not to use the power in the course of this Parliament will mean lower levels of income tax in Scotland from April 2000, a much-reduced administrative burden for the estimated 91,000 UK employers who have employees who are Scottish taxpayers, and a saving of around £20 million on the tax's implementation and operating costs over the lifetime of the Parliament.

We intend to make those resources, which are available as a direct result of our decision not to use the tax-varying power, available for the Holyrood building project. As the First Minister promised, other budgets will not be affected to meet the Holyrood contract.

I therefore commend these proposals.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C705721", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Financial Issues", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26688, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 756.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 756.0, "ID": 26688, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 778.0, "ContributionID": 705721, "EditedText": "I repeat my earlier comments to Mr Wilson in relation to a working relationship with Mr Davidson. If we include Mr Watson, the Convener of the Finance Committee, and Mr Raffan, the back-bench finance spokesperson for the Liberal Democrats, and if we have regular informal discussions about financial matters, our meetings could be quite entertaining. I welcome Mr Davidson's comments and I hope that we can have a constructive relationship.I understand that a time has been set for a joint meeting of the Finance and Audit Committees and that it will take place before further public consultation over the summer. That will be followed by a statement to the Parliament after the summer on our specific proposals for a bill, which will then go into the decision-making stages in committee where it can be looked at in detail. My target for completion of that process will be the end of the year. It is important that we have completed the passing of this bill when we discuss next year's budget in Parliament in January 2000, so that the procedures that we are working with have a statutory basis. I am very keen to expand the principles of best value to different levels of government. At the moment, we impose those on local government more than on central government. During the summer, I intend to look over the whole process of the modernising government agenda, and I will report back to this Parliament as early as possible with a way forward for the Executive to modernise systems of government and ensure best value operations in government. I now address the issue of the tax-raising power and whether we would end all preparations to use it. Given the record of the former Conservative Government between 1992 and 1997, when there were successive tax hikes, I suspect that the comment that I made earlier about the Scottish National party being keen to have the tax-raising power available to it in the year 2003 may apply to the Conservatives too. We will keep a basic infrastructure in place. That is right because it is democratic. In 2003, the people of Scotland will have the right to choose between parties that want to raise taxes and those that do not. If they vote for parties that want to raise taxes, they have a democratic right to expect those parties to implement those plans.", "EditedTextHTML": "I repeat my earlier comments to Mr Wilson in relation to a working relationship with Mr Davidson. If we include Mr Watson, the Convener of the Finance Committee, and Mr Raffan, the back-bench finance spokesperson for the Liberal Democrats, and if we have regular informal discussions about financial matters, our meetings could be quite entertaining. I welcome Mr Davidson's comments and I hope that we can

have a constructive relationship.

I understand that a time has been set for a joint meeting of the Finance and Audit Committees and that it will take place before further public consultation over the summer. That will be followed by a statement to the Parliament after the summer on our specific proposals for a bill, which will then go into the decision-making stages in committee where it can be looked at in detail. My target for completion of that process will be the end of the year. It is important that we have completed the passing of this bill when we discuss next year's budget in Parliament in January 2000, so that the procedures that we are working with have a statutory basis.

I am very keen to expand the principles of best value to different levels of government. At the moment, we impose those on local government more than on central government. During the summer, I intend to look over the whole process of the modernising government agenda, and I will report back to this Parliament as early as possible with a way forward for the Executive to modernise systems of government and ensure best value operations in government.

I now address the issue of the tax-raising power and whether we would end all preparations to use it. Given the record of the former Conservative Government between 1992 and 1997, when there were successive tax hikes, I suspect that the comment that I made earlier about the Scottish National party being keen to have the tax-raising power available to it in the year 2003 may apply to the Conservatives too. We will keep a basic infrastructure in place. That is right because it is democratic. In 2003, the people of Scotland will have the right to choose between parties that want to raise taxes and those that do not. If they vote for parties that want to raise taxes, they have a democratic right to expect those parties to implement those plans.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2142E142P230C705725", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Financial Issues", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26688, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 756.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 756.0, "ID": 26688, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Watson, Mike", "ID": 2142, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Cathcart" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Watson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mike Watson (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 786.0, "ContributionID": 705725, "EditedText": "I cannot guarantee that the Finance Committee will be entertaining under my convenership, but it will certainly be lively and I am sure that those who are involved will be inquisitive. The minister mentioned the FIAG report, which everybody has welcomed, including myself. It is an excellent document, and I am pleased that the Executive has given it broad approval. That report raised the issue of budget approvals. Both the Audit Committee and the Finance Committee will be asked to examine primary versus secondary legislation to make those approvals. I ask the minister to clarify that that means the endorsement of some sort of amendment bills by order. Can he assure me, on behalf of the Finance Committee, that that will not preclude any kind of consideration? FIAG set out a fairly elaborate three-stage process for the approval of the budget bills themselves. Will the amendment bills, if not using the same process, at least have adequate Finance Committee consideration? Of course, the final decision will rest with the Parliament as a whole.", "EditedTextHTML": "I cannot guarantee that the Finance Committee will be entertaining under my convenership, but it will certainly be lively and I am sure that those who are involved will be inquisitive.

The minister mentioned the FIAG report, which everybody has welcomed, including myself. It is an excellent document, and I am pleased that the Executive has given it broad approval. That report raised the issue of budget approvals. Both the Audit Committee and the Finance Committee will be asked to examine primary versus secondary legislation to make those approvals. I ask the minister to clarify that that means the endorsement of some sort of amendment bills by order. Can he assure me, on behalf of the Finance Committee, that that will not preclude any kind of consideration? FIAG set out a fairly elaborate three-stage process for the approval of the budget bills themselves. Will the amendment bills, if not using the same process, at least have adequate Finance Committee consideration? Of course, the final decision will rest with the Parliament as a whole.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C705726", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Financial Issues", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26688, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 756.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 756.0, "ID": 26688, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 788.0, "ContributionID": 705726, "EditedText": "I can give Mr Watson a firm assurance that the final decisions will always rest with the Parliament. The most significant of a number of points that I want to raise in the Finance Committee is that, if during the year we were to go through a system of budget amendment bills as well as a main budget bill early in the year, a four- week period would be required—after those amendment bills had been agreed in this Parliament—during which the Law Officers could refer them to the Privy Council. Whether or not that ever happens, that fourweek delay may be something that this Parliament would not want to happen when its budget decisions are being implemented. That is a specific point that the committees might want to consider. There would be no reduction or removal of rights over financial decision making in this chamber; it would be a way of ensuring that the Parliament's financial decisions could be implemented as quickly as possible if we choose to go down that road.", "EditedTextHTML": "I can give Mr Watson a firm assurance that the final decisions will always rest with the Parliament. The most significant of a number of points that I want to raise in the Finance Committee is that, if during the year we were to go through a system of budget amendment bills as well as a main budget bill early in the year, a four- week period would be required—after those amendment bills had been agreed in this Parliament—during which the Law Officers could refer them to the Privy Council.

Whether or not that ever happens, that four

week delay may be something that this Parliament would not want to happen when its budget decisions are being implemented. That is a specific point that the committees might want to consider. There would be no reduction or removal of rights over financial decision making in this chamber; it would be a way of ensuring that the Parliament's financial decisions could be implemented as quickly as possible if we choose to go down that road.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C705727", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Financial Issues", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26688, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 756.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 756.0, "ID": 26688, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 790.0, "ContributionID": 705727, "EditedText": "I shall take three more quick questions.", "EditedTextHTML": "I shall take three more quick questions.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C705731", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Financial Issues", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26688, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 756.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 756.0, "ID": 26688, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 798.0, "ContributionID": 705731, "EditedText": "I would like to answer Mr Davidson's point because the issue of broadly accepting the report is important. In my statement I specifically mentioned the two issues on which I want to consult with the committees: one is the use of primary and secondary legislation and the other is the future of public audit arrangements in Scotland. That information was in my statement and I furnished Mr Davidson with a copy in advance, so I hope that he was able to look at it. I am happy to confirm that we will have time for adequate pre-legislative scrutiny. The FIAG report has been in the public domain for some time now and we have already had a lot of feedback on its contents. The bill will be based on that report. I am conscious that, based on the FIAG report, we are two months behind schedule at this stage on the budget for next year. I hope that we will be able to apply some creative effort to ensuring that Parliament is able to consider, both in committees and here in the chamber, proposals for next year's budget at the earliest possible date after the summer recess.", "EditedTextHTML": "I would like to answer Mr Davidson's point because the issue of broadly accepting the report is important. In my statement I specifically mentioned the two issues on which I want to consult with the committees: one is the use of primary and secondary legislation and the other is the future of public audit arrangements in Scotland. That information was in my statement and I furnished Mr Davidson with a copy in advance, so I hope that he was able to look at it.

I am happy to confirm that we will have time for adequate pre-legislative scrutiny. The FIAG report has been in the public domain for some time now and we have already had a lot of feedback on its contents. The bill will be based on that report.

I am conscious that, based on the FIAG report, we are two months behind schedule at this stage on the budget for next year. I hope that we will be able to apply some creative effort to ensuring that Parliament is able to consider, both in committees and here in the chamber, proposals for next year's budget at the earliest possible date after the summer recess.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C705732", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Financial Issues", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26688, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 756.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 756.0, "ID": 26688, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie (Lothians) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 800.0, "ContributionID": 705732, "EditedText": "Will the minister confirm, notwithstanding the terms of his statement today, that the tartan tax is not dead and that what we have heard is an uncharacteristic temporary respite care for Scottish taxpayers? Will he confirm that the members of the Lib-Lab Administration believe in the tax-varying power and do not rule out its application to Scottish taxpayers in the future if we have the misfortune to return them at another election?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister confirm, notwithstanding the terms of his statement today, that the tartan tax is not dead and that what we have heard is an uncharacteristic temporary respite care for Scottish taxpayers? Will he confirm that the members of the Lib-Lab Administration believe in the tax-varying power and do not rule out its application to Scottish taxpayers in the future if we have the misfortune to return them at another election?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C705733", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Financial Issues", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26688, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 756.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 756.0, "ID": 26688, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 802.0, "ContributionID": 705733, "EditedText": "It must be a matter of great regret for Mr McLetchie that the Administration has taken this decision in a united and unanimous way. We are sure that we will spend the resources of this Parliament and this Executive well during the next four years. When it comes to financial matters, there is a duty on all four main parties and on the others represented in this chamber not to make financial matters merely a political football during the next four years, but to ensure that we go into the detail of the budget, identify savings and spend resources on the priorities of the people of Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "It must be a matter of great regret for Mr McLetchie that the Administration has taken this decision in a united and unanimous way. We are sure that we will spend the resources of this Parliament and this Executive well during the next four years.

When it comes to financial matters, there is a duty on all four main parties and on the others represented in this chamber not to make financial matters merely a political football during the next four years, but to ensure that we go into the detail of the budget, identify savings and spend resources on the priorities of the people of Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1906E278P355C705734", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Financial Issues", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26688, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 756.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 756.0, "ID": 26688, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Welsh, Andrew", "ID": 1906, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Angus" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Welsh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Andrew Welsh (Angus) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 804.0, "ContributionID": 705734, "EditedText": "If I heard Mr McConnell aright, he said that the memorandum on the bill would be made available to the Finance Committee and the Audit Committee by this weekend. Why not today? Will he also tell us what time scale he envisages for the creation of Audit Scotland?", "EditedTextHTML": "If I heard Mr McConnell aright, he said that the memorandum on the bill would be made available to the Finance Committee and the Audit Committee by this weekend. Why not today?

Will he also tell us what time scale he envisages for the creation of Audit Scotland?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C705735", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Financial Issues", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26688, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 756.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 756.0, "ID": 26688, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 806.0, "ContributionID": 705735, "EditedText": "The issue of the creation of Audit Scotland is one of the matters on which I want to report in detail to the committee. The memorandum cannot be made available today because I was not prepared to finalise its contents until I had heard feedback from members in the chamber this afternoon. This evening, intend to finalise the memorandum on the basis of comments that have been made today, so that any new points can be taken on board. The memorandum will be circulated first thing tomorrow morning.", "EditedTextHTML": "The issue of the creation of Audit Scotland is one of the matters on which I want to report in detail to the committee.

The memorandum cannot be made available today because I was not prepared to finalise its contents until I had heard feedback from members in the chamber this afternoon. This evening, intend to finalise the memorandum on the basis of comments that have been made today, so that any new points can be taken on board. The memorandum will be circulated first thing tomorrow morning.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C705739", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "The Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26689, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 808.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 808.0, "ID": 26689, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 816.0, "ContributionID": 705739, "EditedText": "I welcome those comments and embrace their implications. I am sure that members of all parties will welcome what Mr Swinney said. It is vital that the positive message of partnership goes out to the business community. It is important to build on the strong, stable macro-economic policy that has been delivered for Scotland at the UK level—Scotland and Britain will be all the stronger for that. Since 1997, Labour's overriding economic purpose has been to secure long-term economic stability, with low inflation and sound public finances, so that families and businesses can plan for the future. Our ambitions have become achievements. Inflation is now low and stable—in May it was at its lowest for nearly five years. Interest rates are at their lowest since 1997, and mortgage rates are at their lowest since 1966. Public finances are under control, and massive extra funding for key areas has been delivered. In Scotland, we will be spending an additional £1.8 billion—that is £1,800 million—on health and £1.3 billion on education. The capital modernisation fund, announced in Gordon Brown's budget this year, provides an extra £165 million for Scotland. That is about investment, jobs and national prosperity. In Scotland we have many strengths on which to build a prominent position in key sectors.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome those comments and embrace their implications. I am sure that members of all parties will welcome what Mr Swinney said. It is vital that the positive message of partnership goes out to the business community.

It is important to build on the strong, stable macro-economic policy that has been delivered for Scotland at the UK level—Scotland and Britain will be all the stronger for that. Since 1997, Labour's overriding economic purpose has been to secure long-term economic stability, with low inflation and sound public finances, so that families and businesses can plan for the future. Our ambitions have become achievements. Inflation is now low and stable—in May it was at its lowest for nearly five years. Interest rates are at their lowest since 1997, and mortgage rates are at their lowest since 1966.

Public finances are under control, and massive extra funding for key areas has been delivered. In Scotland, we will be spending an additional £1.8 billion—that is £1,800 million—on health and £1.3 billion on education. The capital modernisation fund, announced in Gordon Brown's budget this year, provides an extra £165 million for Scotland. That is about investment, jobs and national prosperity. In Scotland we have many strengths on which to build a prominent position in key sectors.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1876E194P490C705744", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "The Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26689, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 808.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 808.0, "ID": 26689, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Marwick, Tricia", "ID": 1876, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tricia Marwick", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tricia Marwick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 826.0, "ContributionID": 705744, "EditedText": "Mr McLeish will know that yesterday Scottish Power announced the closure of Methil power station in his constituency, which will cost 70 jobs. He will also know that the Methil and Levenmouth area is one of the country's unemployment black spots. Unemployment is not falling in the Levenmouth area—in fact, it has been increasing over the past two years. Can Mr McLeish assure the people of Methil and Levenmouth that in the short and the long term he will work to secure jobs for them?", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr McLeish will know that yesterday Scottish Power announced the closure of Methil power station in his constituency, which will cost 70 jobs. He will also know that the Methil and Levenmouth area is one of the country's unemployment black spots. Unemployment is not falling in the Levenmouth area—in fact, it has been increasing over the past two years. Can Mr McLeish assure the people of Methil and Levenmouth that in the short and the long term he will work to secure jobs for them?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C705746", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "The Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26689, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 808.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 808.0, "ID": 26689, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Murray Tosh (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 830.0, "ContributionID": 705746, "EditedText": "If the minister is committed to listening to industry, will he listen to what many manufacturing industries are saying about the potential impact of high energy taxes? A number of critical industries in Scotland are fearful about how those taxes will affect their prospects. Will he offer them any comfort?", "EditedTextHTML": "If the minister is committed to listening to industry, will he listen to what many manufacturing industries are saying about the potential impact of high energy taxes? A number of critical industries in Scotland are fearful about how those taxes will affect their prospects. Will he offer them any comfort?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C705765", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "The Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26689, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 808.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 808.0, "ID": 26689, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 870.0, "ContributionID": 705765, "EditedText": "In replying to that point, Mr Davidson should remember that many other members are still waiting to speak in what is a relatively short debate.", "EditedTextHTML": "In replying to that point, Mr Davidson should remember that many other members are still waiting to speak in what is a relatively short debate.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C705750", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "The Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26689, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 808.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 808.0, "ID": 26689, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 839.0, "ContributionID": 705750, "EditedText": "Having heard Mr McLeish's words about the wonderful performance of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, does Mr Swinney agree that one of the greatest problems that the economy faces—and the fundamental cross that Scotland has to bear—is the strength of the pound, which was brought about by the fact that, in 1997, the chancellor increased interest rates totally unnecessarily?", "EditedTextHTML": "Having heard Mr McLeish's words about the wonderful performance of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, does Mr Swinney agree that one of the greatest problems that the economy faces—and the fundamental cross that Scotland has to bear—is the strength of the pound, which was brought about by the fact that, in 1997, the chancellor increased interest rates totally unnecessarily?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C705754", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "The Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26689, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 808.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 808.0, "ID": 26689, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr David Davidson (North-East Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 848.0, "ContributionID": 705754, "EditedText": "The reason for the amendment is that we are unconvinced that the nationalists have gained the confidence of our business community. We have a long way to go. After the performance this morning, I am sure that many members of the business community will be worried about the sincerity of this afternoon's words—nice as they might have been. However, that is not to say that we do not agree with many of Mr Swinney's points. The motion in the name of Mr McLeish is nothing more than a selective use of statistics. As we heard today, there is growing evidence of economic downturn and job losses. The other day, Mr McLeish very kindly offered to visit the region of my colleague, Mr Mundell, to see how it is suffering. The minister had better start clearing his diary because he will be getting an awful lot of invitations in the next few weeks. Has he noticed the thousands of job losses in the north-east in the oil-related industries? Confidence in those industries is wobbly. If there is no further investment, what measures will the minister take to give support or confidence?", "EditedTextHTML": "The reason for the amendment is that we are unconvinced that the nationalists have gained the confidence of our business community. We have a long way to go. After the performance this morning, I am sure that many members of the business community will be worried about the sincerity of this afternoon's words—nice as they might have been. However, that is not to say that we do not agree with many of Mr Swinney's points.

The motion in the name of Mr McLeish is nothing more than a selective use of statistics. As we heard today, there is growing evidence of economic downturn and job losses. The other day,

Mr McLeish very kindly offered to visit the region of my colleague, Mr Mundell, to see how it is suffering. The minister had better start clearing his diary because he will be getting an awful lot of invitations in the next few weeks. Has he noticed the thousands of job losses in the north-east in the oil-related industries? Confidence in those industries is wobbly. If there is no further investment, what measures will the minister take to give support or confidence?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C705757", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "The Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26689, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 808.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 808.0, "ID": 26689, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Davidson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 854.0, "ContributionID": 705757, "EditedText": "I will give way in a moment, Mr Raffan—my throat is giving out anyway. We hear rumours that our local authorities are to be given power to adjust business rates. That will guarantee that our high streets will become deserts of charity shops, doing nothing for anyone.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will give way in a moment, Mr Raffan—my throat is giving out anyway.

We hear rumours that our local authorities are to be given power to adjust business rates. That will guarantee that our high streets will become deserts of charity shops, doing nothing for anyone.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C705759", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "The Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26689, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 808.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 808.0, "ID": 26689, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Davidson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 858.0, "ContributionID": 705759, "EditedText": "Mr Raffan asked first, and so I will be decent.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Raffan asked first, and so I will be decent.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C705760", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "The Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26689, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 808.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 808.0, "ID": 26689, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 860.0, "ContributionID": 705760, "EditedText": "I am interested by the interventionist tone of Mr Davidson's speech. Is he aware that Mr Lilley was sacked last week for precisely such a speech?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am interested by the interventionist tone of Mr Davidson's speech. Is he aware that Mr Lilley was sacked last week for precisely such a speech?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C705761", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "The Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26689, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 808.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 808.0, "ID": 26689, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Davidson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 862.0, "ContributionID": 705761, "EditedText": "I am sorry, but I am not responsible for Mr Lilley's actions and I am not at Westminster.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry, but I am not responsible for Mr Lilley's actions and I am not at Westminster.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C705766", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "The Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26689, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 808.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 808.0, "ID": 26689, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Davidson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 872.0, "ContributionID": 705766, "EditedText": "Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, but I have allowed other people to intervene. We have to make sure that this Parliament understands that business is not a cash cow that can be milked by the Treasury or by local authorities. I am pleased to note that, in the partnership agreement, the Liberal Democrats' wonderful tax-raising plans for small business— from turnover tax to payroll tax—have at last died. If we are to build an economy for the future, we must start with the building blocks of education and training—an aim that we share with the minister. I am sure that we can work together through the committees to resolve that situation. I agree with him that we must urgently sort out the muddle and overlap in the support systems for business in Scotland. We cannot allow the current waste to continue. I hope that Mr McConnell's statement about overlap and waste is a recognition by the Executive that the issue should be dealt with in one of the first pieces of legislation to go before Parliament this year. I shall not go back over our infrastructure requirements. It is a pity that the Labour Government at Westminster did not carry out the roads infrastructure programme that the previous Conservative Government had put in place and allowed resources for. I ask the Executive to consider that proposal again. It is important to examine the infrastructure—particularly for industry—in areas other than the central belt. I was refreshed by Mr McLeish's comments, but he and his colleagues need to come to this chamber and to the committees with clear, practical and pragmatic proposals, not just visionary statements. I move, as an amendment to motion S1M-68, in the name of Henry McLeish, leave out from first \"in\" to end and insert— \"is increasing in parts of Scotland, and calls upon the Scottish Executive not to increase the tax regulatory burden on business in the interest of expanding employment\".", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, but I have allowed other people to intervene.

We have to make sure that this Parliament understands that business is not a cash cow that can be milked by the Treasury or by local authorities. I am pleased to note that, in the partnership agreement, the Liberal Democrats' wonderful tax-raising plans for small business— from turnover tax to payroll tax—have at last died.

If we are to build an economy for the future, we must start with the building blocks of education and training—an aim that we share with the minister. I am sure that we can work together through the committees to resolve that situation. I agree with him that we must urgently sort out the muddle and overlap in the support systems for business in Scotland. We cannot allow the current waste to continue. I hope that Mr McConnell's statement about overlap and waste is a recognition by the Executive that the issue should be dealt with in one of the first pieces of legislation to go before Parliament this year.

I shall not go back over our infrastructure requirements. It is a pity that the Labour Government at Westminster did not carry out the roads infrastructure programme that the previous

Conservative Government had put in place and allowed resources for. I ask the Executive to consider that proposal again. It is important to examine the infrastructure—particularly for industry—in areas other than the central belt. I was refreshed by Mr McLeish's comments, but he and his colleagues need to come to this chamber and to the committees with clear, practical and pragmatic proposals, not just visionary statements.

I move, as an amendment to motion S1M-68, in the name of Henry McLeish, leave out from first \"in\" to end and insert—

\"is increasing in parts of Scotland, and calls upon the Scottish Executive not to increase the tax regulatory burden on business in the interest of expanding employment\".

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C705769", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "The Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26689, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 808.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 808.0, "ID": 26689, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 879.0, "ContributionID": 705769, "EditedText": "End now please.", "EditedTextHTML": "End now please.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1985E207P501C705774", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "The Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26689, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 808.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 808.0, "ID": 26689, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hamilton, Mr Duncan", "ID": 1985, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Hamilton: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 889.0, "ContributionID": 705774, "EditedText": "Okay, Mr Reid, I will. Applause.", "EditedTextHTML": "Okay, Mr Reid, I will. [Applause.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C705775", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "The Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26689, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 808.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 808.0, "ID": 26689, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon (Argyll and Bute) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 892.0, "ContributionID": 705775, "EditedText": "That is amazing: I get a round of applause without saying anything. I will be brief, especially as I have only two and a half minutes. I suggest to Mr Davidson, who was concerned about what he should say to the young farmers when he goes to their function tonight, that an apology should be the first item on his agenda. We all know that the Conservative Government's handling of the BSE crisis created the tremendous downturn in the fortunes of much of rural Scotland. Conservative members seem to have complete amnesia about everything that occurred before May 1997. It is a pity that Dr Simpson is not here to help them out with that.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is amazing: I get a round of applause without saying anything.

I will be brief, especially as I have only two and a half minutes. I suggest to Mr Davidson, who was concerned about what he should say to the young farmers when he goes to their function tonight, that an apology should be the first item on his agenda. We all know that the Conservative Government's handling of the BSE crisis created the tremendous downturn in the fortunes of much of rural Scotland. Conservative members seem to have complete amnesia about everything that occurred before May 1997. It is a pity that Dr Simpson is not here to help them out with that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C705776", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "The Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26689, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 808.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 808.0, "ID": 26689, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Annabel Goldie (West of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 894.0, "ContributionID": 705776, "EditedText": "Will Mr Lyon give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr Lyon give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C705777", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "The Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26689, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 808.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 808.0, "ID": 26689, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 896.0, "ContributionID": 705777, "EditedText": "Yes, but remember that I have only three minutes.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes, but remember that I have only three minutes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C705778", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "The Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26689, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 808.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 808.0, "ID": 26689, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Goldie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 898.0, "ContributionID": 705778, "EditedText": "Will Mr Lyon exercise his influence in the coalition pact to emphasise the urgent need for the immediate lifting of the beef-on-the-bone ban?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr Lyon exercise his influence in the coalition pact to emphasise the urgent need for the immediate lifting of the beef-on-the-bone ban?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C705780", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "The Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26689, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 808.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 808.0, "ID": 26689, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Annabel Goldie (West of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 903.0, "ContributionID": 705780, "EditedText": "I applaud the spirit of the motion, but I have to express some cynicism about its substance. To propose, as the Government does, motorway toll taxes, city entry charges and employee parking taxes is a curious way of promoting skills, of promoting a stable and competitive environment for enterprise and of encouraging the growth of new business. That all comes on top of the already crushing weight of tax increases that the Labour Chancellor of the Exchequer, Gordon Brown, has imposed by way of fuel taxes. As Scottish products have to be distributed over large distances, the increases in fuel taxes and the recently announced penalties for using Scotland's roads will further threaten the health of the Scottish economy. That seems to strike at the heart of the motion. The health warning is clear: Labour taxes will seriously damage job prospects. It is extraordinary that the minister did not allude to the Manpower Employment Services report that was published this week. Its quarterly survey of employment prospects indicated that Scotland was unlikely to prosper as much as England. It seems that business is scared by the arsenal of stealth taxes that Scottish Labour intends to unleash on the Scottish business community. That relentless pounding will presumably intensify when Labour creates the minefield of permitting local councils to reintroduce a variable business rate. I applaud Mr Hamilton's contribution but, perhaps unlike him, I know the pain of such measures because I have been in small business. I am deeply concerned about the implications of the Government's proposals for that sector. Labour is incapable of understanding the basic law of economics that taxes destroy business and kill jobs. Whenever the electorate are told about new or increased taxes, someone, somewhere, as sure as night follows day, is losing a job as a consequence. I have not yet mentioned the crippling cost to Scottish business that has been created by Labour's high-value pound. I submit that our business sector is much more fragile than the tone of the motion would suggest. Any further taxes would badly affect the demand for products and services and could well push business over the edge, taking jobs with it. In its motion, the Government has the temerity to mention skills. I share Mr Swinney's concerns about the new deal. Quite simply, I do not think that it is working; it might be better classed as no deal at all. A system that fails more than 60 per cent of its participants does not seem to me to be a good model for the reintegration of people who have been without jobs. The Labour party hypocritically trumpets loudly its stolen slogan, \"Scottish solutions for Scottish problems\". Why then did it mess up a good and improving series of skills development programmes that was made in Scotland, by Scots and for Scots, by forcing on Scotland an English programme—the new deal? As we now know, Scottish skills experts urged the Labour party not to do so. Looking at this motion, I feel that this Government is no friend of Scottish business and enterprise; it may masquerade as such, but it is posturing. Deeds mean a lot more. Judged on its legislative programme, this Government is a \"spend\" Government. It is neglecting the enterprise base—the very base on which we rely to produce the generated taxation and Exchequer funding that we need before we can consider what we can spend within that allocation. I oppose the motion and I welcome the amendment of my colleague Mr Davidson.", "EditedTextHTML": "I applaud the spirit of the motion, but I have to express some cynicism about its substance. To propose, as the Government does, motorway toll taxes, city entry charges and employee parking taxes is a curious way of promoting skills, of promoting a stable and competitive environment for enterprise and of encouraging the growth of new business. That all comes on top of the already crushing weight of tax increases that the Labour Chancellor of the Exchequer, Gordon Brown, has imposed by way of fuel taxes. As Scottish products have to be distributed over large distances, the increases in fuel taxes and the recently announced penalties for using Scotland's roads will further threaten the health of the Scottish economy. That seems to strike at the heart of the motion. The health warning is clear: Labour taxes will seriously damage job prospects.

It is extraordinary that the minister did not allude to the Manpower Employment Services report that was published this week. Its quarterly survey of employment prospects indicated that Scotland was unlikely to prosper as much as England. It seems that business is scared by the arsenal of stealth taxes that Scottish Labour intends to unleash on the Scottish business community. That relentless pounding will presumably intensify when Labour creates the minefield of permitting local councils to reintroduce a variable business rate. I applaud Mr Hamilton's contribution but, perhaps unlike him, I know the pain of such measures because I have been in small business. I am deeply concerned about the implications of the Government's proposals for that sector.

Labour is incapable of understanding the basic law of economics that taxes destroy business and kill jobs. Whenever the electorate are told about new or increased taxes, someone, somewhere, as sure as night follows day, is losing a job as a consequence.

I have not yet mentioned the crippling cost to Scottish business that has been created by Labour's high-value pound. I submit that our business sector is much more fragile than the tone

of the motion would suggest. Any further taxes would badly affect the demand for products and services and could well push business over the edge, taking jobs with it.

In its motion, the Government has the temerity to mention skills. I share Mr Swinney's concerns about the new deal. Quite simply, I do not think that it is working; it might be better classed as no deal at all. A system that fails more than 60 per cent of its participants does not seem to me to be a good model for the reintegration of people who have been without jobs. The Labour party hypocritically trumpets loudly its stolen slogan, \"Scottish solutions for Scottish problems\". Why then did it mess up a good and improving series of skills development programmes that was made in Scotland, by Scots and for Scots, by forcing on Scotland an English programme—the new deal? As we now know, Scottish skills experts urged the Labour party not to do so.

Looking at this motion, I feel that this Government is no friend of Scottish business and enterprise; it may masquerade as such, but it is posturing. Deeds mean a lot more. Judged on its legislative programme, this Government is a \"spend\" Government. It is neglecting the enterprise base—the very base on which we rely to produce the generated taxation and Exchequer funding that we need before we can consider what we can spend within that allocation.

I oppose the motion and I welcome the amendment of my colleague Mr Davidson.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1888E265P358C705782", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "The Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26689, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 808.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 808.0, "ID": 26689, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morgan, Alasdair", "ID": 1888, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Galloway and Upper Nithsdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morgan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alasdair Morgan (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 908.0, "ContributionID": 705782, "EditedText": "Does Elaine agree that although the employment figures in the south-west of Scotland are bad, they actually mask a worse situation? Many people have emigrated from the area because they cannot get jobs.", "EditedTextHTML": "Does Elaine agree that although the employment figures in the south-west of Scotland are bad, they actually mask a worse situation? Many people have emigrated from the area because they cannot get jobs.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C705784", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "The Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26689, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 808.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 808.0, "ID": 26689, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 912.0, "ContributionID": 705784, "EditedText": "You may have about 30 seconds.", "EditedTextHTML": "You may have about 30 seconds.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1768E72P274C705785", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "The Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26689, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 808.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 808.0, "ID": 26689, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Murray, Elaine", "ID": 1768, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumfries" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Murray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Murray: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 914.0, "ContributionID": 705785, "EditedText": "We must equip our people with the skills that they will need to compete in the job markets of the next century. We must, in other words, invest in education and training and ensure that the local and national economy is stable and that jobs will continue to be available for the existing work force and their children.", "EditedTextHTML": "We must equip our people with the skills that they will need to compete in the job markets of the next century. We must, in other words, invest in education and training and ensure that the local and national economy is stable and that jobs will continue to be available for the existing work force and their children.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2188E70P92C705788", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "The Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26689, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 808.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 808.0, "ID": 26689, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harper, Robin", "ID": 2188, "PartyName": "Scottish Green Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Green", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robin Harper", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robin Harper (Lothians) (Green): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 921.0, "ContributionID": 705788, "EditedText": "I applaud what I have heard from Mr McLeish and the emphasis on supporting small businesses that we have heard from the SNP. One thing has been of great concern to me for a considerable time. Would either party—or both parties—give consideration to insuring vulnerable areas of historically low employment against the cruel blows that are dealt to them when inward investment turns without warning to disinvestment? This happens with little loss to the multinationals concerned, but it has catastrophic effects on local economies.", "EditedTextHTML": "I applaud what I have heard from Mr McLeish and the emphasis on supporting small businesses that we have heard from the SNP. One thing has been of great concern to me for a considerable time. Would either party—or both parties—give consideration to insuring vulnerable areas of historically low employment against the cruel blows that are dealt to them when inward investment turns without warning to disinvestment? This happens with little loss to the multinationals concerned, but it has catastrophic effects on local economies.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1782E69P279C705789", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "The Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26689, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 808.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 808.0, "ID": 26689, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Oldfather, Irene", "ID": 1782, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Cunninghame South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Irene Oldfather", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Irene Oldfather (Cunninghame South) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 924.0, "ContributionID": 705789, "EditedText": "I appreciate your letting me in, Deputy Presiding Officer, as I have waited for a few days to get into a debate. I am pleased to be able to speak about the Scottish economy and, in particular, to welcome the good news set out in the minister's speech. People in my constituency also will welcome the statement, as Cunnighame South is an area that suffered a haemorrhaging of jobs during the 18 years of the previous Government. Consequently, it has the fourth highest unemployment rate in Scotland. We now have a Government which, for the first time in a long while, is listening and is prepared to tackle the scourge, the wastefulness and the human tragedy of unemployment in areas such as Cunnighame South. I welcome the fact that, through low inflation and sound public finances, the Government is setting the climate to deliver for business and for investment. The new deal for jobs has provided almost 29,000 jobs for young people and has given them skills and experience. The apprenticeship scheme recognises once again the importance of skilled workers. We also have a new ministry for enterprise. I was pleased to welcome the minister to my constituency on one of his first engagements to open a new project by USI. The investment will create 700 jobs over the next three years. While we must hold on to our manufacturing industry, which is important and makes up so much of our exports, we must edge into the highly skilled and innovation markets. Our education system will play an integral part in regenerating the Scottish economy. The investment that we make in our schools today will pay dividends in our work force tomorrow. I believe, like the great social reformers, that employment opportunity for all is not only a worthy goal in itself, but the route out of the poverty that divides our communities.", "EditedTextHTML": "I appreciate your letting me in, Deputy Presiding Officer, as I have waited for a few days to get into a debate. I am pleased to be able to speak about the Scottish economy and, in particular, to welcome the good news set out in the minister's speech.

People in my constituency also will welcome the statement, as Cunnighame South is an area that suffered a haemorrhaging of jobs during the 18 years of the previous Government. Consequently, it has the fourth highest unemployment rate in Scotland. We now have a Government which, for the first time in a long while, is listening and is prepared to tackle the scourge, the wastefulness and the human tragedy of unemployment in areas such as Cunnighame South.

I welcome the fact that, through low inflation and sound public finances, the Government is setting the climate to deliver for business and for investment. The new deal for jobs has provided almost 29,000 jobs for young people and has given them skills and experience. The apprenticeship scheme recognises once again the importance of skilled workers. We also have a new ministry for enterprise. I was pleased to welcome the minister to my constituency on one of his first engagements to open a new project by USI. The investment will create 700 jobs over the next three years.

While we must hold on to our manufacturing industry, which is important and makes up so much of our exports, we must edge into the highly skilled and innovation markets. Our education system will play an integral part in regenerating the Scottish economy. The investment that we make in our schools today will pay dividends in our work force tomorrow. I believe, like the great social reformers, that employment opportunity for all is not only a worthy goal in itself, but the route out of the poverty that divides our communities.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.545317+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2188E70P92C705793", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "The Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26689, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 808.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 808.0, "ID": 26689, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harper, Robin", "ID": 2188, "PartyName": "Scottish Green Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Green", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robin Harper", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robin Harper rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 933.0, "ContributionID": 705793, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.545317+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C705800", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "The Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26689, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 808.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 808.0, "ID": 26689, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil (Central Scotland) (SNP) rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 949.0, "ContributionID": 705800, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.545317+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2154E194P299C705801", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "The Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26689, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 808.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 808.0, "ID": 26689, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stephen, Nicol", "ID": 2154, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Nicol Stephen", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicol Stephen: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 951.0, "ContributionID": 705801, "EditedText": "I want to move on.I mentioned Duncan Hamilton's speech and George Lyon answered the rest of David Davidson's points very adequately. Some of Annabel Goldie's remarks had a disappointing tone to them and exhibited considerable cynicism about the motion. The state of transport is of great concern to industry. A crushing cost arises from chaos and congestion on our roads, and many business groups support the initiatives that the Government is suggesting. Elaine Murray introduced a note of realism when she referred to the particular problems in her constituency. Before I move on to my main remarks, I want to reply to Robin Harper's point about inward investment leading to disinvestment. That is a danger, but does it mean that we should oppose inward investment? Of course not—we want to encourage more inward investment. In response to Murray Tosh's remarks, understand that at no stage has Locate in Scotland turned away a project for budgetary reasons.", "EditedTextHTML": "I want to move on.

I mentioned Duncan Hamilton's speech and George Lyon answered the rest of David Davidson's points very adequately. Some of Annabel Goldie's remarks had a disappointing tone to them and exhibited considerable cynicism about the motion.

The state of transport is of great concern to industry. A crushing cost arises from chaos and congestion on our roads, and many business groups support the initiatives that the Government is suggesting. Elaine Murray introduced a note of realism when she referred to the particular problems in her constituency.

Before I move on to my main remarks, I want to reply to Robin Harper's point about inward investment leading to disinvestment. That is a danger, but does it mean that we should oppose inward investment? Of course not—we want to encourage more inward investment.

In response to Murray Tosh's remarks, understand that at no stage has Locate in Scotland turned away a project for budgetary reasons.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.545317+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C705812", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26690, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 961.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 961.0, "ID": 26690, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 973.0, "ContributionID": 705812, "EditedText": "The second question is, that motion S1M-67, as amended, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "The second question is, that motion S1M-67, as amended, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.545317+00:00" }, { "ID": "C705813", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26690, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 961.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 961.0, "ID": 26690, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 975.0, "ContributionID": 705813, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.545317+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C705816", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26690, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 961.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 961.0, "ID": 26690, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 980.0, "ContributionID": 705816, "EditedText": "The result of that vote is as follows: For 84, Against 36, Abstentions 0.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result of that vote is as follows: For 84, Against 36, Abstentions 0.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.545317+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C705825", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26690, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 961.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 961.0, "ID": 26690, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 994.0, "ContributionID": 705825, "EditedText": "The fourth question is, that amendment S1M-68.2, in the name of Mr David Davidson, which proposes an amendment to motion S1M-68, in the name of Henry McLeish, on the economy of Scotland, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "The fourth question is, that amendment S1M-68.2, in the name of Mr David Davidson, which proposes an amendment to motion S1M-68, in the name of Henry McLeish, on the economy of Scotland, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "C705826", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26690, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 961.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 961.0, "ID": 26690, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 996.0, "ContributionID": 705826, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "C705832", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26690, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 961.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 961.0, "ID": 26690, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1007.0, "ContributionID": 705832, "EditedText": "Amendment disagreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment disagreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C705833", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26690, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 961.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 961.0, "ID": 26690, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1008.0, "ContributionID": 705833, "EditedText": "The fifth and final question is, that motion S1M-68, in the name of Mr Henry McLeish, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "The fifth and final question is, that motion S1M-68, in the name of Mr

Henry McLeish, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "C705834", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26690, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 961.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 961.0, "ID": 26690, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1010.0, "ContributionID": 705834, "EditedText": "Yes.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "C705840", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26690, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 961.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 961.0, "ID": 26690, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1020.0, "ContributionID": 705840, "EditedText": "That the Parliament notes that unemployment in Scotland is falling and is low by historical and international standards, and that employment is increasing, and looks forward to the Executive building on Scotland's economic success by investing in jobs and skills, promoting a stable and competitive environment for enterprise and encouraging the growth of new businesses.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament notes that unemployment in Scotland is falling and is low by historical and international standards, and that employment is increasing, and looks forward to the Executive building on Scotland's economic success by investing in jobs and skills, promoting a stable and competitive environment for enterprise and encouraging the growth of new businesses.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2110E214P424C705442", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gibson, Kenneth", "ID": 2110, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenneth Gibson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Gibson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 176.0, "ContributionID": 705442, "EditedText": "Has Mr Raffan moved party? Is he still the Conservative member for Delyn?", "EditedTextHTML": "Has Mr Raffan moved party? Is he still the Conservative member for Delyn?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:24:23.6870353+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2110E214P424C705444", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gibson, Kenneth", "ID": 2110, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenneth Gibson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Gibson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 180.0, "ContributionID": 705444, "EditedText": "Not at this time.", "EditedTextHTML": "Not at this time.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:24:23.6870353+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2110E214P424C705436", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gibson, Kenneth", "ID": 2110, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenneth Gibson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Gibson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 164.0, "ContributionID": 705436, "EditedText": "Not at present. I have a long speech and I think that the Deputy Presiding Officer will cut me off if I take too many interventions. Back in the early 1980s, one of the infamous inner-London boroughs got into trouble for its involvement in a scheme whereby, to bridge the yawning chasm in its annual budget, it sold all its parking meters to a foreign bank and then leased them back from the bank for an annual fee. The Tory Government and Labour front bench condemned the scheme as loony left, but it seems to me that, far from being loonies, the people who thought up the scheme were visionaries. How could they have known that the scheme that they created in the smoky committee rooms of an inner-London council—on an agenda item sandwiched between motions on twinning with Pyongyang and giving the freedom of the borough to Gerry Adams—would later be whole-heartedly endorsed by the Tory Government and then implemented by Tony Blair's shiny, happy new Labour? Scotland in 1999 is no different from Hackney, Haringey or Lambeth in the 1980s. Instead of leasing back our parking meters, we are leasing back schools, hospitals and other vital assets. Instead of indulging in a harmless piece of creative accountancy to get round rate capping, we are handing over public assets on the cheap and storing up an ever-increasing tax burden for the next generation. Someone somewhere in the Labour party has to say that there must be a better way than PFI or public-private partnerships—I hope that a member in this chamber will be the first. Many Labour MSPs in this chamber have stood against PFI in the past. MSPs from trade union and public sector backgrounds have stood up against schemes that have threatened the wages and conditions of their colleagues and members; I know that those MSPs will take this opportunity to break free of the control-freak tendency in their party and stand up for what they believe in. This is an issue in which belief matters and dividing lines can and should be drawn. In The Observer in April, Bob Thompson, the treasurer of the Labour party in Scotland, said: \"What I find repugnant is new Labour's insistence that the jobs of loyal support staff are sold off like feudal serfs. So much for partnership and team working\". In The Scotsman in June, Alex Rowley— remember him?—described PFI as \"alarming\" and \"a back-door privatisation of council services\".As my colleague Nicola Sturgeon has already said, and as even John McAllion has said, The Scotsman, continued: \"The Tories may have gone, but their ideas live on under the initials PFI.\" This is an issue on which those of us who are prepared to say that the private sector does not always know best and is not always cheaper or better must today stand up and be counted. There is more at stake than financial procedures. What is at stake is not only the ethos that runs through the entire public sector, but the morale, pay and conditions of thousands of public sector workers across Scotland. What is at stake is the very essence of why the majority of members in this Parliament resisted wave after wave of Tory privatisation plans. It would be one of the cruellest ironies if one of the first acts of the new Parliament was to endorse the ideology that so many people who fought for this Parliament were sure that we would do away with.", "EditedTextHTML": "Not at present. I have a long speech and I think that the Deputy Presiding Officer will cut me off if I take too many interventions.

Back in the early 1980s, one of the infamous inner-London boroughs got into trouble for its involvement in a scheme whereby, to bridge the yawning chasm in its annual budget, it sold all its parking meters to a foreign bank and then leased them back from the bank for an annual fee. The Tory Government and Labour front bench condemned the scheme as loony left, but it seems to me that, far from being loonies, the people who thought up the scheme were visionaries. How could they have known that the scheme that they created in the smoky committee rooms of an inner-London council—on an agenda item sandwiched between motions on twinning with Pyongyang and giving the freedom of the borough to Gerry Adams—would later be whole-heartedly endorsed by the Tory Government and then implemented by Tony Blair's shiny, happy new Labour?

Scotland in 1999 is no different from Hackney, Haringey or Lambeth in the 1980s. Instead of leasing back our parking meters, we are leasing back schools, hospitals and other vital assets. Instead of indulging in a harmless piece of creative accountancy to get round rate capping, we are handing over public assets on the cheap and storing up an ever-increasing tax burden for the next generation.

Someone somewhere in the Labour party has to say that there must be a better way than PFI or public-private partnerships—I hope that a member in this chamber will be the first. Many Labour MSPs in this chamber have stood against PFI in the past. MSPs from trade union and public sector backgrounds have stood up against schemes that have threatened the wages and conditions of their colleagues and members; I know that those MSPs will take this opportunity to break free of the control-freak tendency in their party and stand up for what they believe in. This is an issue in which belief matters and dividing lines can and should be drawn.

In The Observer in April, Bob Thompson, the treasurer of the Labour party in Scotland, said:

\"What I find repugnant is new Labour's insistence that the jobs of loyal support staff are sold off like feudal serfs. So much for partnership and team working\".

In The Scotsman in June, Alex Rowley— remember him?—described PFI as \"alarming\" and

\"a back-door privatisation of council services\".

As my colleague Nicola Sturgeon has already said, and as even John McAllion has said, The Scotsman, continued:

\"The Tories may have gone, but their ideas live on under the initials PFI.\"

This is an issue on which those of us who are prepared to say that the private sector does not always know best and is not always cheaper or better must today stand up and be counted. There is more at stake than financial procedures. What is at stake is not only the ethos that runs through the entire public sector, but the morale, pay and conditions of thousands of public sector workers across Scotland. What is at stake is the very essence of why the majority of members in this Parliament resisted wave after wave of Tory privatisation plans. It would be one of the cruellest ironies if one of the first acts of the new Parliament was to endorse the ideology that so many people who fought for this Parliament were sure that we would do away with.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:24:23.7026612+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2110E214P424C705446", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gibson, Kenneth", "ID": 2110, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenneth Gibson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Gibson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 184.0, "ContributionID": 705446, "EditedText": "Okay, go on then.", "EditedTextHTML": "Okay, go on then.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:24:23.7026612+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2110E214P424C705453", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gibson, Kenneth", "ID": 2110, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenneth Gibson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Gibson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 199.0, "ContributionID": 705453, "EditedText": "Will Mr Raffan give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr Raffan give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:24:23.7026612+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2110E214P424C705455", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gibson, Kenneth", "ID": 2110, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenneth Gibson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Gibson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 203.0, "ContributionID": 705455, "EditedText": "Does not Mr Raffan accept that this is a structured debate, in which the SNP will put forward its alternative proposals? Does he not accept that the reason why local authorities are being forced down this road is that they have lost £1,470 million of capital investment from central Government during the past four years? Would not Mr Raffan rather see that £1,470 million restored over the next four years than go down the road of PFI and PPP?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does not Mr Raffan accept that this is a structured debate, in which the SNP will put forward its alternative proposals? Does he not accept that the reason why local authorities are being forced down this road is that they have lost £1,470 million of capital investment from central Government during the past four years? Would not Mr Raffan rather see that £1,470 million restored over the next four years than go down the road of PFI and PPP?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:24:23.7026612+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C705798", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "The Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26689, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 808.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 808.0, "ID": 26689, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 945.0, "ContributionID": 705798, "EditedText": "Nicol Stephen talks about competitiveness. As a member of the Administration, does he believe that the current value of sterling is too high or too low, and what does he think that the level does to the competitiveness of Scottish companies?", "EditedTextHTML": "Nicol Stephen talks about competitiveness. As a member of the Administration, does he believe that the current value of sterling is too high or too low, and what does he think that the level does to the competitiveness of Scottish companies?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:31:43.4808602+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C705363", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Thursday 24 June 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26658, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26658, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 11.0, "ContributionID": 705363, "EditedText": "Thank you very much.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you very much.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4828182+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C705364", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 14.0, "ContributionID": 705364, "EditedText": "The first item of business this morning is a debate on motion S1M67, in the name of Mr Alex Salmond, on the privatisation of public services. This debate will conclude at around 12.20 pm.", "EditedTextHTML": "The first item of business this morning is a debate on motion S1M67, in the name of Mr Alex Salmond, on the privatisation of public services. This debate will conclude at around 12.20 pm.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4828182+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C705366", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 18.0, "ContributionID": 705366, "EditedText": "This is the first Opposition day debate that we have had, so we are feeling our way, as in so many other matters. In this case, I have decided that the Executive should have the last word, as is the practice at Westminster, but I have taken into account our brief discussion in the Parliamentary Bureau. I believe that the matter ought to be considered sympathetically by the Procedures Committee when it comes into being. Today's decision should not be taken as a precedent.", "EditedTextHTML": "This is the first Opposition day debate that we have had, so we are feeling our way, as in so many other matters. In this case, I have decided that the Executive should have the last word, as is the practice at Westminster, but I have taken into account our brief discussion in the Parliamentary Bureau. I believe that the matter ought to be considered sympathetically by the Procedures Committee when it comes into being. Today's decision should not be taken as a precedent.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4828182+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C705368", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Finance (Mr Jack McConnell): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 23.0, "ContributionID": 705368, "EditedText": "Will Ms Sturgeon name one PFI project in which that option is not available to the public sector?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Ms Sturgeon name one PFI project in which that option is not available to the public sector?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4828182+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C705370", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Keith Raffan (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 27.0, "ContributionID": 705370, "EditedText": "I have listened with interest to Nicola Sturgeon's diatribe against PFI. Perhaps she could explain why Perth and Kinross Council, when it was under SNP control, indulged in a PFI project—the council's office accommodation—and why Angus Council, which is still under SNP control, has also gone ahead with a local PFI project. The SNP cannot have its cake and eat it.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have listened with interest to Nicola Sturgeon's diatribe against PFI. Perhaps she could explain why Perth and Kinross Council, when it was under SNP control, indulged in a PFI project—the council's office accommodation—and why Angus Council, which is still under SNP control, has also gone ahead with a local PFI project. The SNP cannot have its cake and eat it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4828182+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C705375", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 37.0, "ContributionID": 705375, "EditedText": "It is an intervention in Nicola Sturgeon's speech and must be short.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is an intervention in Nicola Sturgeon's speech and must be short.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4828182+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C705376", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bruce Crawford: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 39.0, "ContributionID": 705376, "EditedText": "Three years ago in Perth and Kinross—there is a question here for Nicola— capital spend was £25 million; this year it is only £12 million. In effect, the hand was up the back of the SNP-controlled council at that time. I had no option but to proceed with a completely failed regime. Is Nicola happy with the unholy alliance of the Labour, Tory and Liberal Democrat parties that now controls Perth and Kinross Council?", "EditedTextHTML": "Three years ago in Perth and Kinross—there is a question here for Nicola— capital spend was £25 million; this year it is only £12 million. In effect, the hand was up the back of the SNP-controlled council at that time. I had no option but to proceed with a completely failed regime. Is Nicola happy with the unholy alliance of the Labour, Tory and Liberal Democrat parties that now controls Perth and Kinross Council?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4828182+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C705386", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 60.0, "ContributionID": 705386, "EditedText": "I suggest to Mr McConnell that he read \"Pathfinders to the Parliament\", the Government's consultation document that sets out a business agenda for the Parliament and has a foreword by Lord MacDonald of Tradeston. The document endorses the idea of a public service trust in the form of a transport bond. It says: \"We believe this innovative financial arrangement should not count as part of PSBR.\" Perhaps Mr McConnell's civil service brief supplies the answer to my question, but what I said is the reality of the situation.", "EditedTextHTML": "I suggest to Mr McConnell that he read \"Pathfinders to the Parliament\", the Government's consultation document that sets out a business agenda for the Parliament and has a foreword by Lord MacDonald of Tradeston. The document endorses the idea of a public service trust in the form of a transport bond. It says:

\"We believe this innovative financial arrangement should not count as part of PSBR.\"

Perhaps Mr McConnell's civil service brief supplies the answer to my question, but what I said is the reality of the situation.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C705389", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 66.0, "ContributionID": 705389, "EditedText": "That is a misrepresentation of the answer. The £400 million is in addition to the £600 million. If Ms Sturgeon checked her facts, she would understand that better. It is not only in Edinburgh that a major new hospital is under construction. New hospitals are being built at Hairmyres in East Kilbride and in Wishaw in my constituency. During the next three years, public-private partnerships will deliver new projects that will be worth in excess of £500 million. That is in addition to the substantial capital investment from public funds that we plan. All those new public health service initiatives are threatened by the SNP's proposals. It is not only in hospitals and schools that we are delivering modern public services. The new motorway between Glasgow and the English border is open eight months ahead of schedule and within budget. In relation to local authorities, I would like to commend Mr Crawford and the Perth and Kinross Council, of which he was a member, for the council's use of public-private partnerships in delivering new council offices. I am sure that the nationalist administration adopted a value for money approach when it chose to use PFI. We urgently need to spend around £5 billion on infrastructure for water and sewerage during the next 15 years. As with our schools and hospitals, we have spent too long debating the need for infrastructure; it is time to deliver. A total of £500 million is being procured for sewerage schemes and progress is well under way. However, the process of cleaning up our beaches and our sewerge systems is threatened by the proposals of the SNP. Far from supporting public services, the SNP is playing fast and loose with Scottish services. The Executive will support only public-private partnerships that improve public services and represent not the lowest value, but best value. We are committed to ensuring democratic control over those projects and services. I urge nationalist MSPs to drop the rhetoric of the election campaign and join in the effort to modernise Scotland. If they choose not to, they will have to answer for their actions in Edinburgh, East Kilbride, Falkirk, Glasgow, Aberdeen—and in Wishaw, too. We have said that we will review and improve PFI and today I will set out new policies in the areas of staff, surplus land, information and the ownership of assets. Those are areas in which we can make public-private partnerships work better to achieve our objective of best value. The issue of surplus land often arises in these projects, as in other capital investments, because old facilities are being replaced. The disposal of surplus land can raise valuable receipts to help offset the cost of new buildings but care needs to be taken to protect the public interest. In response to public concerns that we make clear our approval, I will ensure that, in future Government public-private partnerships, the assumption will be that surplus land will not be included in the contracts unless it can be determined that it represents best value to do so. That has always been the Government's assumption and I will expect the rest of the public sector in Scotland to follow that approach. The Executive is committed to fairness and equality of treatment for workers. It is important that staff get fair treatment in public-private partnership projects. I commend the Scottish Trades Union Congress and Unison for their efforts to ensure that that happens in negotiations with us and with private companies. As the Minister for Finance, I intend to keep under review the opportunities to improve security and conditions for staff who deliver our vital public services.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is a misrepresentation of the answer. The £400 million is in addition to the £600 million. If Ms Sturgeon checked her facts, she would understand that better.

It is not only in Edinburgh that a major new hospital is under construction. New hospitals are being built at Hairmyres in East Kilbride and in Wishaw in my constituency. During the next three years, public-private partnerships will deliver new projects that will be worth in excess of £500 million. That is in addition to the substantial capital investment from public funds that we plan. All those new public health service initiatives are threatened by the SNP's proposals.

It is not only in hospitals and schools that we are delivering modern public services. The new motorway between Glasgow and the English border is open eight months ahead of schedule and within budget. In relation to local authorities, I would like to commend Mr Crawford and the Perth and Kinross Council, of which he was a member, for the council's use of public-private partnerships in delivering new council offices. I am sure that the nationalist administration adopted a value for money approach when it chose to use PFI.

We urgently need to spend around £5 billion on infrastructure for water and sewerage during the next 15 years. As with our schools and hospitals, we have spent too long debating the need for infrastructure; it is time to deliver. A total of £500 million is being procured for sewerage schemes and progress is well under way. However, the process of cleaning up our beaches and our sewerge systems is threatened by the proposals of the SNP. Far from supporting public services, the SNP is playing fast and loose with Scottish services.

The Executive will support only public-private partnerships that improve public services and represent not the lowest value, but best value. We are committed to ensuring democratic control over those projects and services. I urge nationalist MSPs to drop the rhetoric of the election campaign and join in the effort to modernise Scotland. If they choose not to, they will have to answer for their actions in Edinburgh, East Kilbride, Falkirk, Glasgow, Aberdeen—and in Wishaw, too.

We have said that we will review and improve PFI and today I will set out new policies in the areas of staff, surplus land, information and the ownership of assets. Those are areas in which we can make public-private partnerships work better to achieve our objective of best value.

The issue of surplus land often arises in these projects, as in other capital investments, because old facilities are being replaced. The disposal of surplus land can raise valuable receipts to help offset the cost of new buildings but care needs to be taken to protect the public interest. In response to public concerns that we make clear our approval, I will ensure that, in future Government public-private partnerships, the assumption will be that surplus land will not be included in the contracts unless it can be determined that it represents best value to do so. That has always been the Government's assumption and I will expect the rest of the public sector in Scotland to follow that approach.

The Executive is committed to fairness and equality of treatment for workers. It is important that staff get fair treatment in public-private partnership projects. I commend the Scottish Trades Union Congress and Unison for their efforts to ensure that that happens in negotiations with us and with private companies. As the Minister for Finance, I intend to keep under review the opportunities to improve security and conditions for staff who deliver our vital public services.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C705391", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 70.0, "ContributionID": 705391, "EditedText": "They have also played a constructive role in negotiations with the Government and the private companies that are involved in the schemes.", "EditedTextHTML": "They have also played a constructive role in negotiations with the Government and the private companies that are involved in the schemes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1828E200P487C705396", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacDonald, Margo", "ID": 1828, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margo MacDonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms MacDonald: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 80.0, "ContributionID": 705396, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C705397", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 82.0, "ContributionID": 705397, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2105E44P74C705402", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harding, Mr Keith", "ID": 2105, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Harding", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Keith Harding (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 93.0, "ContributionID": 705402, "EditedText": "We have heard a lot of talk in the chamber about new politics. I have always been somewhat cynical, but I have to say that the new politics has arrived. In a previous existence, the minister— whom I knew as Jack—was a member of Stirling District Council. We opposed each other for eight or nine years. We did not agree on a major issue on any occasion. Now we have new politics: today I am going to agree with the minister. Before Jack took the road to Damascus, he was proud to be a left-wing socialist. Had I proposed a private initiative when I was council leader in the late 1980s, he would have opposed it vigorously. I welcome his transformation.", "EditedTextHTML": "We have heard a lot of talk in the chamber about new politics. I have always been somewhat cynical, but I have to say that the new politics has arrived. In a previous existence, the minister— whom I knew as Jack—was a member of Stirling District Council. We opposed each other for eight or nine years. We did not agree on a major issue on any occasion. Now we have new politics: today I am going to agree with the minister.

Before Jack took the road to Damascus, he was proud to be a left-wing socialist. Had I proposed a private initiative when I was council leader in the late 1980s, he would have opposed it vigorously. I welcome his transformation.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2105E44P74C705404", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harding, Mr Keith", "ID": 2105, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Harding", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Harding: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 97.0, "ContributionID": 705404, "EditedText": "I have taken so many over the years that one more will not matter.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have taken so many over the years that one more will not matter.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2105E44P74C705406", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harding, Mr Keith", "ID": 2105, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Harding", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Harding: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 101.0, "ContributionID": 705406, "EditedText": "We are still picking up the tab; it has cost us nearly £500,000. It is the most heavily subsidised swimming pool in Scotland. I will get down to the nitty-gritty. We oppose the SNP motion and commend the Scottish Executive for broadly continuing the initiative that was launched by the Conservative party in 1992. The private finance initiative allows not only more taxpayers' money to be spent on delivering services, such as teaching and health care, but the use of private sources to fund the buildings in which those services are delivered. As has been said, it is somewhat ironic that the SNP opposes the initiative yet took full advantage of it to deliver projects in Perth and Angus. These days, there are very few businesses or organisations that own and operate the buildings in which they work. It is a matter of good, prudent financial management to lease buildings and to leave the burden of maintenance and management to a specialist landlord. In most of those arrangements, the buildings remain in the ownership of the landlord at the end of the lease. It is much better for the Government to focus on what it does best and on what it was elected to do—promoting good health, treating illness and teaching our children—rather than on investing a huge amount of scarce capital resources in buildings. I suggest that the mover of the motion— regrettably, she is not here—asks her constituents whether they want new hospitals now, in five or 10 years' time or perhaps never. I know what the answer to that will be. At the moment, only PFI can deliver and satisfy the people's aspirations. It extends the amount of expenditure, because the underlying principle of public-private partnerships is to provide additional public expenditure rather than to replace existing public expenditure. Today is memorable for me for three reasons. First, I have agreed with Jack McConnell for the first time in my life. Secondly, I have got my maiden speech out of the way—an absolute delight. Thirdly, my daughter is in labour—do not get excited, Jack, she is still a Tory—and I hope that I will become a grandparent for the first time before the end of the day. Applause. now have a singular ambition: I want this Parliament to work. In the future, I want my granddaughter, who is going to be called Laurie, to be able to say, \"They got things together, they have made Scotland much better, and my grandfather was there.\"", "EditedTextHTML": "We are still picking up the tab; it has cost us nearly £500,000. It is the most heavily subsidised swimming pool in Scotland.

I will get down to the nitty-gritty. We oppose the SNP motion and commend the Scottish Executive for broadly continuing the initiative that was launched by the Conservative party in 1992. The private finance initiative allows not only more taxpayers' money to be spent on delivering services, such as teaching and health care, but the use of private sources to fund the buildings in which those services are delivered. As has been said, it is somewhat ironic that the SNP opposes the initiative yet took full advantage of it to deliver projects in Perth and Angus.

These days, there are very few businesses or organisations that own and operate the buildings in which they work. It is a matter of good, prudent financial management to lease buildings and to leave the burden of maintenance and management to a specialist landlord. In most of those arrangements, the buildings remain in the ownership of the landlord at the end of the lease.

It is much better for the Government to focus on what it does best and on what it was elected to do—promoting good health, treating illness and teaching our children—rather than on investing a huge amount of scarce capital resources in buildings.

I suggest that the mover of the motion— regrettably, she is not here—asks her constituents whether they want new hospitals now, in five or 10 years' time or perhaps never. I know what the answer to that will be. At the moment, only PFI can deliver and satisfy the people's aspirations. It extends the amount of expenditure, because the underlying principle of public-private partnerships is to provide additional public expenditure rather than to replace existing public expenditure.

Today is memorable for me for three reasons. First, I have agreed with Jack McConnell for the first time in my life. Secondly, I have got my maiden speech out of the way—an absolute delight. Thirdly, my daughter is in labour—do not get excited, Jack, she is still a Tory—and I hope that I will become a grandparent for the first time before the end of the day. [Applause.]

now have a singular ambition: I want this Parliament to work. In the future, I want my granddaughter, who is going to be called Laurie, to be able to say, \"They got things together, they have made Scotland much better, and my grandfather was there.\"

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C705412", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 114.0, "ContributionID": 705412, "EditedText": "Will Mrs Ullrich welcome one thing? In that \"Newsnight\" survey, the specific question that members were asked was whether they would like PFI to be kept under review. Given that today I have announced four reviews of PFI policy, will she welcome the fact that their viewpoint was taken on board by the Government?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mrs Ullrich welcome one thing? In that \"Newsnight\" survey, the specific question that members were asked was whether they would like PFI to be kept under review. Given that today I have announced four reviews of PFI policy, will she welcome the fact that their viewpoint was taken on board by the Government?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1970E66P288C705416", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNulty, Des", "ID": 1970, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Clydebank and Milngavie" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Des McNulty", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Des McNulty (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 123.0, "ContributionID": 705416, "EditedText": "One of the key episodes in the comedy of errors that passed for the SNP's election campaign for the Scottish Parliament and convinced an overwhelming majority of Scots to place their votes elsewhere was the ludicrous position that Mr Salmond and Mr Swinney got themselves into over their notion of a public services trust. Have I got the term right? It kept being changed during the election campaign as the SNP changed tack. Mr Swinney heralded the notion as \"a mechanism that would be able to provide finances at very competitive rates, significantly below those at present available for PFI schemes.\" Unfortunately for Mr Swinney, the Bank of Scotland, which he had claimed as being among the two or three financial authorities sympathetic to the notion of a public services trust, almost immediately indicated that the scheme as it stood was completely unworkable. That is the reality of the situation.", "EditedTextHTML": "One of the key episodes in the comedy of errors that passed for the SNP's election campaign for the Scottish Parliament and convinced an overwhelming majority of Scots to place their votes elsewhere was the ludicrous position that Mr Salmond and Mr Swinney got themselves into over their notion of a public services trust. Have I got the term right? It kept being changed during the election campaign as the SNP changed tack. Mr Swinney heralded the notion as

\"a mechanism that would be able to provide finances at very competitive rates, significantly below those at present available for PFI schemes.\"

Unfortunately for Mr Swinney, the Bank of Scotland, which he had claimed as being among the two or three financial authorities sympathetic to the notion of a public services trust, almost immediately indicated that the scheme as it stood was completely unworkable. That is the reality of the situation.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1970E66P288C705420", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNulty, Des", "ID": 1970, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Clydebank and Milngavie" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Des McNulty", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Des McNulty: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 131.0, "ContributionID": 705420, "EditedText": "I will come back to Andrew in a minute. In that context, it is correct for the Scottish Executive to look at a range of options for public investment, including public-private sector partnerships. We have to be flexible in our approach, just as any business would be, identifying the most appropriate methods of securing real improvements in provision, with service quality and value for money uppermost in everyone's mind. We should be hard-headed in our approach to investment in public services, balancing the advantages and disadvantages of different options and making decisions on that basis. We should not use the two-legs-bad approach of the Conservatives, whose policies have denuded the public sector of assets and resources, or the four- legs-good sloganising of the SNP, which opposes public-private sector partnerships but which can give, and has given, no convincing alternatives. The proposed schemes have the prospect of bringing substantial new investment that otherwise could not be afforded—that is the important point.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will come back to Andrew in a minute.

In that context, it is correct for the Scottish Executive to look at a range of options for public investment, including public-private sector partnerships. We have to be flexible in our approach, just as any business would be, identifying the most appropriate methods of securing real improvements in provision, with service quality and value for money uppermost in everyone's mind.

We should be hard-headed in our approach to investment in public services, balancing the advantages and disadvantages of different options and making decisions on that basis. We should not use the two-legs-bad approach of the Conservatives, whose policies have denuded the public sector of assets and resources, or the four- legs-good sloganising of the SNP, which opposes public-private sector partnerships but which can give, and has given, no convincing alternatives.

The proposed schemes have the prospect of bringing substantial new investment that otherwise could not be afforded—that is the important point.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1970E66P288C705422", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNulty, Des", "ID": 1970, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Clydebank and Milngavie" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Des McNulty", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Des McNulty: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 135.0, "ContributionID": 705422, "EditedText": "I will not give way.In Glasgow, 28 schools will benefit from substantial capital investment—real benefits for children who are currently in the system, not jam tomorrow and not the prospect of something 10 years down the line. In health, we anticipate that extra funding of £500 million can be added to current capital allocations on the basis of existing budgets. The benefits are real and will be felt by people who are looking for improvements in these services. We must be clear that a flexible approach—not rhetoric—will deliver. That approach involves public investment, investment delivered through public-private sector partnership and private investment linked to the development of public services. All those approaches should be considered on a case-by-case basis, so that we can ensure that they represent value for money and serve the public interest. There are undoubtedly questions to answer about each of those alternatives and about each individual scheme, but that is how things have to be done. We should not engage in empty propaganda. In each case, this Parliament will have to exercise effective scrutiny; indeed, I would argue that one of the reasons why we are here is to engage in such a process of scrutiny. I am delighted that, over the past two years, Treasury ministers have refined and developed rules so that many schemes now use the European Investment Bank as part of the investment package, which significantly increases the financial attractiveness of the process. I am also delighted that the Labour Government's good economic management has led to the lowest interest rates in more than 20 years, which also makes those schemes more attractive than they would have been three or four years ago.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will not give way.

In Glasgow, 28 schools will benefit from substantial capital investment—real benefits for children who are currently in the system, not jam tomorrow and not the prospect of something 10 years down the line. In health, we anticipate that extra funding of £500 million can be added to current capital allocations on the basis of existing budgets. The benefits are real and will be felt by people who are looking for improvements in these services.

We must be clear that a flexible approach—not rhetoric—will deliver. That approach involves public investment, investment delivered through public-private sector partnership and private

investment linked to the development of public services. All those approaches should be considered on a case-by-case basis, so that we can ensure that they represent value for money and serve the public interest.

There are undoubtedly questions to answer about each of those alternatives and about each individual scheme, but that is how things have to be done. We should not engage in empty propaganda. In each case, this Parliament will have to exercise effective scrutiny; indeed, I would argue that one of the reasons why we are here is to engage in such a process of scrutiny.

I am delighted that, over the past two years, Treasury ministers have refined and developed rules so that many schemes now use the European Investment Bank as part of the investment package, which significantly increases the financial attractiveness of the process. I am also delighted that the Labour Government's good economic management has led to the lowest interest rates in more than 20 years, which also makes those schemes more attractive than they would have been three or four years ago.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1828E200P487C705427", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacDonald, Margo", "ID": 1828, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margo MacDonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms MacDonald: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 145.0, "ContributionID": 705427, "EditedText": "I just want Mr McNulty to take me seriously. He will forgive me for using highfalutin' rhetoric when I say that the Government could afford the schemes if it were willing to scrap nuclear weapons. However, that is by the bye. Let us return to the issue of the Edinburgh royal infirmary. Can Mr McNulty explain what plans are in hand for the so-called surplus land at Lauriston, which I consider to be publicly owned land and which should remain in the public province?", "EditedTextHTML": "I just want Mr McNulty to take me seriously. He will forgive me for using highfalutin' rhetoric when I say that the Government could afford the schemes if it were willing to scrap nuclear weapons. However, that is by the bye. Let us return to the issue of the Edinburgh royal infirmary. Can Mr McNulty explain what plans are in hand for the so-called surplus land at Lauriston, which I consider to be publicly owned land and which should remain in the public province?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1970E66P288C705428", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNulty, Des", "ID": 1970, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Clydebank and Milngavie" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Des McNulty", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Des McNulty: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 147.0, "ContributionID": 705428, "EditedText": "As Margo is a member of the Scottish Parliament, she is perfectly entitled to ask such questions, as are members of her party. However, the reason why we have committees is to engage properly in that process. Ministers here can also respond to those questions. My point is that we have a responsibility in this Parliament for proper financial management and for delivering effective public services. That means that we have to consider every option credibly, seriously and with appropriate financial and other detailed advice. If we fail to do that, we will be failing the people of Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "As Margo is a member of the Scottish Parliament, she is perfectly entitled to ask such questions, as are members of her party. However, the reason why we have committees is to engage properly in that process. Ministers here can also respond to those questions. My point is that we have a responsibility in this Parliament for proper financial management and for delivering effective public services. That means that we have to consider every option credibly, seriously and with appropriate financial and other detailed advice. If we fail to do that, we will be failing the people of Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C705443", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 178.0, "ContributionID": 705443, "EditedText": "Will Mr Gibson give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr Gibson give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1996E124P211C705449", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAveety, Mr Frank", "ID": 1996, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Shettleston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Local Government", "SpeakerName": "Frank McAveety", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Local Government (Mr Frank McAveety): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 190.0, "ContributionID": 705449, "EditedText": "We cannot hear the argument, Deputy Presiding Officer.", "EditedTextHTML": "We cannot hear the argument, Deputy Presiding Officer.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C705454", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 201.0, "ContributionID": 705454, "EditedText": "I will in a second, because Mr Gibson gave way to me. However, I will make this point first. The SNP must learn that the duty of the Opposition is not just to oppose, but to propose. Today, SNP members have not gone into detail about their Scottish public service trusts in any of their speeches, least of all in Ms Sturgeon's deplorable effort when opening the debate. She barely gave that proposal a sentence at the end of her speech. We all know why, because the policy is so deeply flawed.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will in a second, because Mr Gibson gave way to me. However, I will make this point first. The SNP must learn that the duty of the Opposition is not just to oppose, but to propose. Today, SNP members have not gone into detail about their Scottish public service trusts in any of their speeches, least of all in Ms Sturgeon's deplorable effort when opening the debate. She barely gave that proposal a sentence at the end of her speech. We all know why, because the policy is so deeply flawed.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C705462", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 217.0, "ContributionID": 705462, "EditedText": "I am replying to Ms Sturgeon's point. The swot can wait; we know that he is good at figures, but he does not always know what to do with them. As a party, we will also seek the appropriate alteration of the current unnecessarily restrictive Treasury rules on investment. That is part of macro-economic policy, which is reserved to Westminster. We have also made proposals on community partnership trusts, which differ from the SNP's Scottish public trusts—or whatever the SNP calls them—as the SNP well knows. We have strongly criticised its proposals, and the SNP has not responded to the detailed criticisms of its policy. Perhaps Mr Wilson could answer this point. The main plank of the SNP proposals is that the banks will lend at more competitive rates, yet the Bank of Scotland has described the proposals as \"unworkable\". The SNP has latched on to the fact that Mr Peter Burt wrote to the SNP to say that the Bank of Scotland regarded its proposals for Scottish public trusts as \"not feasible\", as if that were somehow better than \"unworkable\". I do not know what the difference is between \"not feasible\" and \"unworkable\", but the SNP is grasping at straws. The Royal Bank of Scotland has attacked the SNP's policy too, saying that the SNP has looked only at the funding side, not at the important contribution that private sector management makes to PFI projects. That is why the SNP policies are so deeply flawed; the trade unions have said so, too.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am replying to Ms Sturgeon's point. The swot can wait; we know that he is good at figures, but he does not always know what to do with them.

As a party, we will also seek the appropriate alteration of the current unnecessarily restrictive Treasury rules on investment. That is part of macro-economic policy, which is reserved to Westminster. We have also made proposals on community partnership trusts, which differ from the SNP's Scottish public trusts—or whatever the SNP calls them—as the SNP well knows. We have strongly criticised its proposals, and the SNP has not responded to the detailed criticisms of its policy.

Perhaps Mr Wilson could answer this point. The main plank of the SNP proposals is that the banks will lend at more competitive rates, yet the Bank of Scotland has described the proposals as \"unworkable\". The SNP has latched on to the fact that Mr Peter Burt wrote to the SNP to say that the Bank of Scotland regarded its proposals for Scottish public trusts as \"not feasible\", as if that were somehow better than \"unworkable\". I do not know what the difference is between \"not feasible\" and \"unworkable\", but the SNP is grasping at straws.

The Royal Bank of Scotland has attacked the SNP's policy too, saying that the SNP has looked only at the funding side, not at the important contribution that private sector management makes to PFI projects. That is why the SNP policies are so deeply flawed; the trade unions have said so, too.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C705464", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 221.0, "ContributionID": 705464, "EditedText": "There is a whole column in our manifesto, and I will gladly send it to Mr Wilson afterwards. Mr Wilson cannot get away with what he said about the Bank of Scotland. The Bank of Scotland said that the SNP proposal was \"not feasible\" and was \"unworkable as it stands\". The SNP has not developed its policy since February. SNP members have come to the chamber today to attack the Executive. If the SNP is to be a responsible and mature Opposition—if, in Mr McNulty's words, it is to grow up as an Opposition and as a political party—SNP members cannot come to this chamber and not explain in detail their own policy and not respond to the points made about the deep flaws in it, which have been exposed by banks and business, let alone the Scottish Executive. SNP members must explain their position to their constituents. I was astonished at Ms Sturgeon today: she lambasted the private sector, almost like Tommy Sheridan in drag. She lambasted the private sector in an extraordinary way, ignoring the fact that the seats that the SNP holds at Westminster—and here—are former Tory seats. I am not surprised that SNP members do not say those things as loudly in their constituencies, attacking the private sector as having no redeeming features whatever, since they took over those seats from the Tories. The most bizarre aspect of their performance today is that they have emerged as such unreconstructed Jurassic park socialists. I am glad that Mr McConnell's views have developed and that Labour's policies have developed and moved closer to the Liberal Democrats. In partnership we have come together to make improvements on the public-private partnerships, of which—I say again to Mr Gibson—PFI is just one version. Our party has made its position quite clear: through the partnership agreement with the Labour party, the two parties have moved together on this policy and are working to improve it. We welcome the minister's initiatives today, which seek to improve the operation of public-private partnerships. We are developing new types of partnership and flexible contracts—which is crucial—and we will allow assets, when appropriate, to revert to public ownership. That is in our manifesto; the Labour party agreed to it and it is now in the partnership agreement. I accept that not all PFI projects produce good value. The Skye bridge is the most notorious example. However, the good thing about this Parliament and the committee system that we have set up is that the Finance Committee, of which I am a member, can examine PFI policy and the Audit Committee can examine particular projects. I support the motion in the name of my colleague John Farquhar Munro, the member for Ross, Skye and Inverness West, which calls for an investigation into the Skye bridge contract and the toll order. The more the Audit Committee examines particular projects and the more the Finance Committee examines the operation of PFI policy, the more accountable the Executive will be, the more the policy can evolve, and the more it can be refined and improved. This Parliament, brought about by devolution, will lead to increased accountability in terms of PFI projects. We should all welcome that. SNP members have chosen today to play party politics in a knockabout fashion—Interruption. Frankly, if they do not like the heat, they can get out of the kitchen. If that is the way that they want to play it, we will respond in kind.", "EditedTextHTML": "There is a whole column in our manifesto, and I will gladly send it to Mr Wilson afterwards.

Mr Wilson cannot get away with what he said about the Bank of Scotland. The Bank of Scotland said that the SNP proposal was \"not feasible\" and was \"unworkable as it stands\". The SNP has not developed its policy since February. SNP members have come to the chamber today to attack the Executive. If the SNP is to be a responsible and mature Opposition—if, in Mr McNulty's words, it is to grow up as an Opposition and as a political party—SNP members cannot come to this chamber and not explain in detail their own policy and not respond to the points made about the deep flaws in it, which have been exposed by banks and business, let alone the Scottish Executive.

SNP members must explain their position to their constituents. I was astonished at Ms Sturgeon today: she lambasted the private sector, almost like Tommy Sheridan in drag. She lambasted the private sector in an extraordinary way, ignoring the fact that the seats that the SNP holds at Westminster—and here—are former Tory seats. I am not surprised that SNP members do not say those things as loudly in their constituencies, attacking the private sector as

having no redeeming features whatever, since they took over those seats from the Tories. The most bizarre aspect of their performance today is that they have emerged as such unreconstructed Jurassic park socialists.

I am glad that Mr McConnell's views have developed and that Labour's policies have developed and moved closer to the Liberal Democrats. In partnership we have come together to make improvements on the public-private partnerships, of which—I say again to Mr Gibson—PFI is just one version.

Our party has made its position quite clear: through the partnership agreement with the Labour party, the two parties have moved together on this policy and are working to improve it. We welcome the minister's initiatives today, which seek to improve the operation of public-private partnerships. We are developing new types of partnership and flexible contracts—which is crucial—and we will allow assets, when appropriate, to revert to public ownership. That is in our manifesto; the Labour party agreed to it and it is now in the partnership agreement.

I accept that not all PFI projects produce good value. The Skye bridge is the most notorious example. However, the good thing about this Parliament and the committee system that we have set up is that the Finance Committee, of which I am a member, can examine PFI policy and the Audit Committee can examine particular projects. I support the motion in the name of my colleague John Farquhar Munro, the member for Ross, Skye and Inverness West, which calls for an investigation into the Skye bridge contract and the toll order. The more the Audit Committee examines particular projects and the more the Finance Committee examines the operation of PFI policy, the more accountable the Executive will be, the more the policy can evolve, and the more it can be refined and improved.

This Parliament, brought about by devolution, will lead to increased accountability in terms of PFI projects. We should all welcome that. SNP members have chosen today to play party politics in a knockabout fashion—[Interruption.] Frankly, if they do not like the heat, they can get out of the kitchen. If that is the way that they want to play it, we will respond in kind.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C705466", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 225.0, "ContributionID": 705466, "EditedText": "Hang on a second. Interruption.We have to examine the policy in the Finance Committee and examine particular projects in the Audit Committee. This is a committee-oriented Parliament, and that is the way in which we can play a constructive role in the development of PFI policy.", "EditedTextHTML": "Hang on a second. [Interruption.]

We have to examine the policy in the Finance Committee and examine particular projects in the Audit Committee. This is a committee-oriented Parliament, and that is the way in which we can play a constructive role in the development of PFI policy.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C705469", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 231.0, "ContributionID": 705469, "EditedText": "Will Mr Raffan give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr Raffan give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C705472", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 237.0, "ContributionID": 705472, "EditedText": "Mr Neil would make that point, wouldn't he? Kay Ullrich is sitting next to him; she has quoted Mandy Rice-Davies once already— who am I to quote her a second time? But he would say that, wouldn't he? We made it quite clear that, having looked at the books, we would raise taxes if we thought it necessary. That is the whole point. Our policy position on tax was quite distinct from the SNP's, and our position was clear over a long period, not announced overnight like the SNP's. Last week, we saw the fundamental contradictions at the base of SNP economic policy—a contradiction on interest rates that SNP members have yet to explain, a contradiction on spending, a contradiction on tax, and now a contradiction on PFI, which they use in the councils that the SNP controls, but attack in Parliament. SNP members cannot get away with it. I ask them, in the name of the new politics, to work with the other three parties in the chamber. At the moment, there is a grand coalition against them on this issue. That is why I am surprised that they launched this debate. Their own policy is deeply flawed, and now they are breaking the unholy alliance that was developing with the Tories. We thought that the new love affair would develop into something more permanent, but SNP members have split it asunder by taking the stance that they have on PFI, giving the Tories no alternative but to sue for divorce. There is a vast majority in the chamber in favour of developing PPP and PFI. The SNP should work with us to develop these policies. It is time for it to stop being a destructive Opposition and become a constructive one.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Neil would make that point, wouldn't he? Kay Ullrich is sitting next to him; she has quoted Mandy Rice-Davies once already— who am I to quote her a second time? But he would say that, wouldn't he?

We made it quite clear that, having looked at the books, we would raise taxes if we thought it necessary. That is the whole point. Our policy position on tax was quite distinct from the SNP's, and our position was clear over a long period, not announced overnight like the SNP's. Last week, we saw the fundamental contradictions at the base of SNP economic policy—a contradiction on interest rates that SNP members have yet to explain, a contradiction on spending, a

contradiction on tax, and now a contradiction on PFI, which they use in the councils that the SNP controls, but attack in Parliament.

SNP members cannot get away with it. I ask them, in the name of the new politics, to work with the other three parties in the chamber. At the moment, there is a grand coalition against them on this issue. That is why I am surprised that they launched this debate. Their own policy is deeply flawed, and now they are breaking the unholy alliance that was developing with the Tories. We thought that the new love affair would develop into something more permanent, but SNP members have split it asunder by taking the stance that they have on PFI, giving the Tories no alternative but to sue for divorce. There is a vast majority in the chamber in favour of developing PPP and PFI. The SNP should work with us to develop these policies. It is time for it to stop being a destructive Opposition and become a constructive one.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C705473", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 240.0, "ContributionID": 705473, "EditedText": "Keith Raffan is always a hard act to follow, but I will try my best. I am proud to speak as a member of the party that initiated PFI. I am very comfortable standing by our manifesto commitments and doing what we said we would all along—voting on the issues in our manifesto.", "EditedTextHTML": "Keith Raffan is always a hard act to follow, but I will try my best. I am proud to speak as a member of the party that initiated PFI. I am very comfortable standing by our manifesto commitments and doing what we said we would all along—voting on the issues in our manifesto.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C705476", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Simpson rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 246.0, "ContributionID": 705476, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C705479", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 252.0, "ContributionID": 705479, "EditedText": "If Richard insists on being helpful, he can go on.", "EditedTextHTML": "If Richard insists on being helpful, he can go on.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C705480", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Simpson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 254.0, "ContributionID": 705480, "EditedText": "I am not so sure about the relationship, but I am trying to be helpful. I am going to shock the chamber, because the party that introduced the first privatisation of the health service in the United Kingdom was the Labour party. The health services in general practice are owned privately by banks, by building societies, by doctors—they are not owned by the national health service. In 1966, the Labour health minister Robinson introduced that; the Conservatives cannot claim to have done so. I hope that Mary Scanlon will agree that there has never been a complaint about that aspect of privatisation of the health service, because it is pragmatic and it has worked for the people. That is what PFI and PPP are about, as Mr Raffan has said.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am not so sure about the relationship, but I am trying to be helpful.

I am going to shock the chamber, because the party that introduced the first privatisation of the health service in the United Kingdom was the Labour party. The health services in general practice are owned privately by banks, by building societies, by doctors—they are not owned by the national health service. In 1966, the Labour health minister Robinson introduced that; the Conservatives cannot claim to have done so.

I hope that Mary Scanlon will agree that there has never been a complaint about that aspect of privatisation of the health service, because it is pragmatic and it has worked for the people. That is what PFI and PPP are about, as Mr Raffan has said.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C705481", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 256.0, "ContributionID": 705481, "EditedText": "I do not think that any of us has a monopoly on good ideas, and I am delighted to hear that we took the idea from the Labour party and that the Labour party has now re-endorsed it. I welcome the minister's re-examination of the guidelines and proposals. As mature politicians, it is our responsibility to examine those proposals and to move forward with the commitment to PFI. Des McNulty was still harking back to the Tory years. I believe that if we are to get a serious grip on Scotland's public finances, many Labour- controlled councils should endorse PFI and public- private partnerships for reasons of service quality and value for money. The debate should focus on providing services. I do not believe that any patient turns up at a hospital and asks who owns it. Patients are more concerned about standards of treatment and waiting times. I have never heard a parent say that they were concerned about who owned a school. Parents, children and we as politicians should be concerned about the standards and the provision of education, rather than about who owns and maintains the building. Looking across the chamber, I seem to remember that, during our debate on Holyrood, the point was clearly made that the business of this Parliament could be conducted equally well whether we were tenants in this chamber or owners in the other chamber. It is the business and the decision-making that matter. I am pleased to endorse the excellent idea of PFI and am delighted that Labour members have come on board and done so, too. According to the information centre, PFI projects in Scotland that have been completed or are in the pipeline have a value of more than £2 billion. That is serious money; I would like to hear those who are opposed to PFI make a realistic and honourable suggestion of an alternative means by which we can provide that level of public services.", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not think that any of us has a monopoly on good ideas, and I am delighted to hear that we took the idea from the Labour party and that the Labour party has now re-endorsed it. I welcome the minister's re-examination of the guidelines and proposals. As mature politicians, it is our responsibility to examine those proposals and to move forward with the commitment to PFI.

Des McNulty was still harking back to the Tory years. I believe that if we are to get a serious grip on Scotland's public finances, many Labour- controlled councils should endorse PFI and public- private partnerships for reasons of service quality and value for money. The debate should focus on providing services. I do not believe that any patient turns up at a hospital and asks who owns it. Patients are more concerned about standards of treatment and waiting times. I have never heard a parent say that they were concerned about who owned a school. Parents, children and we as politicians should be concerned about the standards and the provision of education, rather than about who owns and maintains the building.

Looking across the chamber, I seem to remember that, during our debate on Holyrood, the point was clearly made that the business of this Parliament could be conducted equally well whether we were tenants in this chamber or owners in the other chamber. It is the business and the decision-making that matter.

I am pleased to endorse the excellent idea of PFI and am delighted that Labour members have come on board and done so, too. According to the information centre, PFI projects in Scotland that have been completed or are in the pipeline have a value of more than £2 billion. That is serious money; I would like to hear those who are opposed to PFI make a realistic and honourable suggestion of an alternative means by which we

can provide that level of public services.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2123E103P242C705483", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Chisholm, Malcolm", "ID": 2123, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh North and Leith" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Malcolm Chisholm", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 261.0, "ContributionID": 705483, "EditedText": "Clearly, this will be a dominant controversy in this Parliament, but I hope that it can also—perhaps somewhat improbably—be a defining issue of the new politics and one where we make the quantum leap of realising that both sides of the case have some merit. There is concern about PFI. Tommy Sheridan did not reveal a state secret when he said that the Scottish Trades Union Congress was officially opposed to it. I know that many of my constituents are as well. The SNP, however—and Mr Gibson in particular, when he suggested that the Labour party was doing this for some ideological reason— overstated the case when it criticised the Labour party. The reality is that the Labour party is doing this for the practical reason of speeding up investment in public services. I know that the SNP has put forward an alternative, but that would fall foul of the public borrowing rules. That is a dilemma which the Labour party has had to address. I think—and again some members may find this improbable—that there are grounds for consensus around the Labour amendment because of its use of the words \"best value\". This Parliament provides an excellent opportunity to scrutinise every proposed PFI or PPP deal. There is massive controversy about whether those deals are better value than traditional funding in the long term. In each case the Government says that it has let a deal go ahead because it offers better value, but many economists and experts say that there is doubt about the public sector comparator. The existence of this Parliament makes scrutiny in great detail of those deals possible for the first time. On that basis, I am prepared to accept the Labour amendment.", "EditedTextHTML": "Clearly, this will be a dominant controversy in this Parliament, but I hope that it can also—perhaps somewhat improbably—be a defining issue of the new politics and one where we make the quantum leap of realising that both sides of the case have some merit.

There is concern about PFI. Tommy Sheridan did not reveal a state secret when he said that the Scottish Trades Union Congress was officially opposed to it. I know that many of my constituents are as well. The SNP, however—and Mr Gibson in particular, when he suggested that the Labour party was doing this for some ideological reason— overstated the case when it criticised the Labour party. The reality is that the Labour party is doing this for the practical reason of speeding up investment in public services. I know that the SNP has put forward an alternative, but that would fall foul of the public borrowing rules. That is a dilemma which the Labour party has had to address.

I think—and again some members may find this improbable—that there are grounds for consensus around the Labour amendment because of its use of the words \"best value\". This Parliament provides an excellent opportunity to scrutinise every proposed PFI or PPP deal.

There is massive controversy about whether those deals are better value than traditional funding in the long term. In each case the Government says that it has let a deal go ahead because it offers better value, but many economists and experts say that there is doubt about the public sector comparator. The existence of this Parliament makes scrutiny in great detail of those deals possible for the first time. On that basis, I am prepared to accept the Labour amendment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2123E103P242C705485", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Chisholm, Malcolm", "ID": 2123, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh North and Leith" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Malcolm Chisholm", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Malcolm Chisholm: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 265.0, "ContributionID": 705485, "EditedText": "There is clearly an issue about how affordable PFI is. Although it brings forward investment, there is a limit to the number of projects that can be undertaken because of the commitment to pay for them over 30 years. We cannot get into that area today, but many of the committees of this Parliament should examine it in great detail over the next few months.", "EditedTextHTML": "There is clearly an issue about how affordable PFI is. Although it brings forward investment, there is a limit to the number of projects that can be undertaken because of the commitment to pay for them over 30 years. We cannot get into that area today, but many of the committees of this Parliament should examine it in great detail over the next few months.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C705486", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bruce Crawford rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 267.0, "ContributionID": 705486, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2123E103P242C705487", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Chisholm, Malcolm", "ID": 2123, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh North and Leith" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Malcolm Chisholm", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Malcolm Chisholm: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 269.0, "ContributionID": 705487, "EditedText": "I have only four minutes. I would like to take more interventions, but I must speed up and miss out things that I had intended to say. Labour has always said that best value is about not only cost, but quality. Apart from the issue of whether PFI is cheaper in the long run—which I have doubts about—there is the issue of staffing. Concern has been expressed about the effect of PFI on unified staff, particularly in the health service. I welcome Jack McConnell's announcement today on the conditions of NHS staff and, I presume, education staff in PPP projects. However, there is still concern about the loss of a unified NHS staff. The Select Committee on Health at Westminster examined the issue of NHS staffing and—while not opposing PFI in the health service in England—called for a moratorium on new NHS private finance initiatives until the effect on staff had been monitored. That had the support of the Labour majority on the committee. There is widespread concern about the work force issues and we must monitor them closely to assess the effect on staff morale and the details of staff conditions. I am pleased that the pension arrangements have been modified at the new Royal Infirmary. That has been of great concern to many of my constituents who work in the health service. We must keep a close eye all along on the effect of PPP deals on the work force and conditions of service. At the end of the day, along with staffing, the key issue is best value. How does paying over 30 years using this method compare with the traditional method of funding? This Parliament should address that key issue. On condition that that debate and scrutiny take place, I am prepared to support the Labour amendment, although it is well known that I have serious reservations about PFI.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have only four minutes. I would like to take more interventions, but I must speed up and miss out things that I had intended to say.

Labour has always said that best value is about not only cost, but quality. Apart from the issue of whether PFI is cheaper in the long run—which I have doubts about—there is the issue of staffing. Concern has been expressed about the effect of PFI on unified staff, particularly in the health service.

I welcome Jack McConnell's announcement today on the conditions of NHS staff and, I presume, education staff in PPP projects. However, there is still concern about the loss of a unified NHS staff. The Select Committee on Health at Westminster examined the issue of NHS staffing and—while not opposing PFI in the health service in England—called for a moratorium on new NHS private finance initiatives until the effect on staff had been monitored. That had the support of the Labour majority on the committee. There is widespread concern about the work force issues and we must monitor them closely to assess the effect on staff morale and the details of staff conditions.

I am pleased that the pension arrangements have been modified at the new Royal Infirmary. That has been of great concern to many of my constituents who work in the health service. We must keep a close eye all along on the effect of PPP deals on the work force and conditions of service.

At the end of the day, along with staffing, the key issue is best value. How does paying over 30 years using this method compare with the traditional method of funding? This Parliament should address that key issue.

On condition that that debate and scrutiny take place, I am prepared to support the Labour amendment, although it is well known that I have serious reservations about PFI.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C705489", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Galbraith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 274.0, "ContributionID": 705489, "EditedText": "No, it was not.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, it was not.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1882E175P456C705490", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ingram, Adam", "ID": 1882, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Adam Ingram", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Ingram: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 276.0, "ContributionID": 705490, "EditedText": "Yes, it was. It was a creation that was determined to push back the boundaries of the state, and the welfare state in particular. The official justification, however, was the need to reduce the public sector borrowing requirement and to meet the Maastricht criterion that any deficit in public finances should be less than 3 per cent of gross domestic product. Gordon Brown and the new Labour leadership have not only inherited that line from the Tories, but have—if anything— outdone their predecessors in their zeal to control and cut back Government expenditure on vital public services. What is the current deficit as a percentage of GDP? Are we struggling to meet the Maastricht limit? The answer is an emphatic no. We are not just comfortably within it, but within it by a factor of no less than 10. The current deficit as a percentage of GDP is a mere 0.3 per cent. In other words, the new Labour Government has the room to increase public borrowing and spending by a massive £22 billion this year, and by as much if not more in each of the next four years. It will still be able to meet the Maastricht criteria for economic and monetary union. There is scope for a massive increase in capital expenditure. Scotland's share would be around £2.5 billion this year and every year up to and including 2003-04. To put that sum into perspective, last year, Government spending on capital projects in Scotland was only £1.7 billion. The value of all the PFI projects in Scotland— those that have been signed up for and which are in the pipeline—is only £2.8 billion.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes, it was. It was a creation that was determined to push back the boundaries of the state, and the welfare state in particular. The official justification, however, was the need to reduce the public sector borrowing requirement and to meet the Maastricht criterion that any deficit in public finances should be less than 3 per cent of gross domestic product. Gordon Brown and the new Labour leadership have not only inherited that line from the Tories, but have—if anything— outdone their predecessors in their zeal to control and cut back Government expenditure on vital public services.

What is the current deficit as a percentage of GDP? Are we struggling to meet the Maastricht limit? The answer is an emphatic no. We are not just comfortably within it, but within it by a factor of no less than 10. The current deficit as a percentage of GDP is a mere 0.3 per cent. In other words, the new Labour Government has the room to increase public borrowing and spending by a massive £22 billion this year, and by as much if not more in each of the next four years. It will still be able to meet the Maastricht criteria for economic and monetary union.

There is scope for a massive increase in capital expenditure. Scotland's share would be around £2.5 billion this year and every year up to and including 2003-04. To put that sum into perspective, last year, Government spending on capital projects in Scotland was only £1.7 billion. The value of all the PFI projects in Scotland— those that have been signed up for and which are in the pipeline—is only £2.8 billion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1882E175P456C705492", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ingram, Adam", "ID": 1882, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Adam Ingram", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Ingram: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 280.0, "ContributionID": 705492, "EditedText": "The reality is that this new Labour Government has the wherewithal to launch a massive public works programme without recourse to public-private partnerships, but it clearly lacks the political will to do so. It would appear that Gordon Brown will use the billions in his rapidly accumulating war chest to buy the votes of middle England with more cuts in personal income tax. Without doubt, it is a case of retaining power for its own sake, rather than exercising power meaningfully for the common weal.", "EditedTextHTML": "The reality is that this new Labour Government has the wherewithal to launch a massive public works programme without recourse to public-private partnerships, but it clearly lacks the political will to do so. It would appear that Gordon Brown will use the billions in his rapidly accumulating war chest to buy the votes of middle England with more cuts in personal income tax. Without doubt, it is a case of retaining power for its own sake, rather than exercising power meaningfully for the common weal.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C705494", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 285.0, "ContributionID": 705494, "EditedText": "Does Mr Sheridan accept that, to an extent, conventional methods of public investment have been the problem? All the houses developed in the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s were funded in that manner. The councils did not build any life-cycle costings into the plans and no money was set aside for renewal and refurbishment, so that in Glasgow around 77,000 houses are now of almost no value because so much work is necessary to bring them up to standard. That is the result of the conventional approach to funding and it is the legacy of not looking at efficient property management for decades.", "EditedTextHTML": "Does Mr Sheridan accept that, to an extent, conventional methods of public investment have been the problem? All the houses developed in the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s were funded in that manner. The councils did not build any life-cycle costings into the plans and no money was set aside for renewal and refurbishment, so that in Glasgow around 77,000 houses are now of almost no value because so much work is necessary to bring them up to standard. That is the result of the conventional approach to funding and it is the legacy of not looking at efficient property management for decades.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C705497", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 291.0, "ContributionID": 705497, "EditedText": "There is clearly more than enough finance available to make proper public investment in public services and to save the jobs of our janitors, cleaners and domestics who are going into the private sector. I do not want to undermine Mary Scanlon, as she makes her comments honestly—some members of other parties do not make theirs as honestly—but she is a Tory. She says that the priority is who owns things. I will bear that in mind when the party that I represent has replaced the Labour party as the party of working-class men and women in Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "There is clearly more than enough finance available to make proper public investment in public services and to save the jobs of our janitors, cleaners and domestics who are going into the private sector. I do not want to undermine Mary Scanlon, as she makes her comments honestly—some members of other parties do not make theirs as honestly—but she is a Tory. She says that the priority is who owns things. I will bear that in mind when the party that I represent has replaced the Labour party as the party of working-class men and women in Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C705507", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 312.0, "ContributionID": 705507, "EditedText": "Exactly.", "EditedTextHTML": "Exactly.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2090E83P266C705508", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAllion, Mr John", "ID": 2090, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dundee East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John McAllion", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McAllion: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 314.0, "ContributionID": 705508, "EditedText": "That is what they do across Scotland. Public-private partnerships and PFI came about because there were problems with public funding. We all know that. Limits were set on the amount that government could spend and borrow. As a result, many public projects were left lying on the shelf gathering dust. PPP and PFI are meant to break that log-jam and allow public projects to be developed.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is what they do across Scotland.

Public-private partnerships and PFI came about because there were problems with public funding. We all know that. Limits were set on the amount that government could spend and borrow. As a result, many public projects were left lying on the shelf gathering dust. PPP and PFI are meant to break that log-jam and allow public projects to be developed.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2090E83P266C705510", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAllion, Mr John", "ID": 2090, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dundee East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John McAllion", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McAllion: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 318.0, "ContributionID": 705510, "EditedText": "I do not have time to give way.", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not have time to give way.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2090E83P266C705512", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAllion, Mr John", "ID": 2090, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dundee East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John McAllion", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McAllion: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 322.0, "ContributionID": 705512, "EditedText": "I have serious reservations about PFI. The idea of a privately owned and privately run hospital in the NHS is anathema to me as is the idea of forcing public sector workers out of the public sector against their will. That is not why I came into politics, but those of us who are opposed to it have to find a practical alternative. That is what this Parliament is about. It is no good Tommy fighting about the Eurofighter project. For the next four years, we are working within a devolved polity and a devolved budget. If we want an alternative to PPPs we had better start to find it. We will not find it in debates like this; it is for the Finance Committee and the Audit Committee. We must examine the Treasury definition of public sector borrowing requirement and invite Treasury officials to come here and explain why they will not follow the European method that is used everywhere else and allows councils to borrow money privately.The motion calls for the Parliament to consider public services trusts. I am an economist—sorry, I am not an economist—and I have the advantage of not needing to pretend to know everything. I do not know whether public services trusts will work, but the Finance Committee could find out.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have serious reservations about PFI. The idea of a privately owned and privately run hospital in the NHS is anathema to me as is the idea of forcing public sector workers out of the public sector against their will. That is not why I came into politics, but those of us who are opposed to it have to find a practical alternative. That is what this Parliament is about.

It is no good Tommy fighting about the Eurofighter project. For the next four years, we are working within a devolved polity and a devolved budget. If we want an alternative to PPPs we had better start to find it. We will not find it in debates like this; it is for the Finance Committee and the Audit Committee. We must examine the Treasury definition of public sector borrowing requirement and invite Treasury officials to come here and explain why they will not follow the European method that is used everywhere else and allows

councils to borrow money privately.

The motion calls for the Parliament to consider public services trusts. I am an economist—sorry, I am not an economist—and I have the advantage of not needing to pretend to know everything. I do not know whether public services trusts will work, but the Finance Committee could find out.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C705513", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 324.0, "ContributionID": 705513, "EditedText": "Wind up, please.", "EditedTextHTML": "Wind up, please.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2090E83P266C705514", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAllion, Mr John", "ID": 2090, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dundee East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John McAllion", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McAllion: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 326.0, "ContributionID": 705514, "EditedText": "Let us leave the work of examining PFI to the committees and they can report back to the Parliament. Then we can have a proper debate and not the pseudo debate that we had so far this morning.", "EditedTextHTML": "Let us leave the work of examining PFI to the committees and they can report back to the Parliament. Then we can have a proper debate and not the pseudo debate that we had so far this morning.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2010E221P512C705525", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Paterson, Gil", "ID": 2010, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Gil Paterson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Paterson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 349.0, "ContributionID": 705525, "EditedText": "No. If the profit element is taken out—not the interest element, as people need to earn money—of the cost of the new royal infirmary, we would end up with two schools. I know that there are some good people on the Labour benches.", "EditedTextHTML": "No. If the profit element is taken out—not the interest element, as people need to earn money—of the cost of the new royal infirmary, we would end up with two schools.

I know that there are some good people on the Labour benches.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2010E221P512C705527", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Paterson, Gil", "ID": 2010, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Gil Paterson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Paterson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 353.0, "ContributionID": 705527, "EditedText": "No, I am not giving way. I know that there are some good people on those benches and that they are not happy with PFI. The difference is that they will follow orders from London and Tony's plan.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I am not giving way. I know that there are some good people on those benches and that they are not happy with PFI. The difference is that they will follow orders from London and Tony's plan.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C705528", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 355.0, "ContributionID": 705528, "EditedText": "Wind up, please.", "EditedTextHTML": "Wind up, please.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1826E199P351C705532", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Smith, Margaret", "ID": 1826, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Smith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Smith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 364.0, "ContributionID": 705532, "EditedText": "No, it has not. It is in the hands of the committees of this Parliament to ask the Government that question. That brings me to the subject of committees. Mr Raffan and others have spoken about the roles of the Finance Committee, the Audit Committee and the subject committees. It is for all of us to examine this issue. What Mr McConnell has told us today, and what is in the partnership agreement, moves the PFI-PPP debate forward. It does not take the debate to its conclusion, but it is better than where we were. One of the roles of the committees is to move the debate forward again. I will not attack the SNP for using PPP and PFI projects locally. I will give four reasons why I will not: Craigmount High School, The Royal High School, Muirhouse Primary School and Silverknowes Primary School—four different school projects in my area. I have concerns about PPP and PFI, but I am more concerned to ensure that the children I represent get the best education possible from Edinburgh City Council and this Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, it has not. It is in the hands of the committees of this Parliament to ask the Government that question.

That brings me to the subject of committees. Mr Raffan and others have spoken about the roles of the Finance Committee, the Audit Committee and the subject committees. It is for all of us to examine this issue. What Mr McConnell has told us today, and what is in the partnership agreement, moves the PFI-PPP debate forward. It does not take the debate to its conclusion, but it is better than where we were. One of the roles of the committees is to move the debate forward again.

I will not attack the SNP for using PPP and PFI projects locally. I will give four reasons why I will not: Craigmount High School, The Royal High School, Muirhouse Primary School and Silverknowes Primary School—four different school projects in my area. I have concerns about PPP and PFI, but I am more concerned to ensure that the children I represent get the best education possible from Edinburgh City Council and this Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C705533", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 366.0, "ContributionID": 705533, "EditedText": "Wind up, please.", "EditedTextHTML": "Wind up, please.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1826E199P351C705534", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Smith, Margaret", "ID": 1826, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Smith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Smith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 368.0, "ContributionID": 705534, "EditedText": "Ultimately, we are about delivering the possible—not the perfect world. We will not achieve the latter but, with a bit of pragmatism we can make progress, move away from dogma and consider the alternatives. In the Health and Community Care Committee and elsewhere I am happy to consider any options that anyone in this chamber—be they SNP or anything else— proposes to give the people and the children of Scotland the public services that we must deliver.", "EditedTextHTML": "Ultimately, we are about delivering the possible—not the perfect world. We will not achieve the latter but, with a bit of pragmatism we can make progress, move away from dogma and consider the alternatives. In the Health and Community Care Committee and elsewhere I am happy to consider any options that anyone in this chamber—be they SNP or anything else— proposes to give the people and the children of Scotland the public services that we must deliver.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2112E192P495C705535", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacAskill, Kenny", "ID": 2112, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenny MacAskill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Kenny MacAskill (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 371.0, "ContributionID": 705535, "EditedText": "As I drove care-free and toll-free down the M8 last week, I had the opportunity to listen to a folk music tape by the American folklorist Woody Guthrie, on which he sang a song about the American outlaw Pretty Boy Floyd. The lyrics say: \"As through this world you wander you see lots of funny men, some will rob you with a six gun, and some with a fountain pen.\" In my previous existence as a defence agent I met many people who would rob with a six gun. I have now landed in a chamber where I am meeting the individuals who would rob us with a fountain pen. The robbery started under the Tories. It was maintained under a Labour Administration, and it is now accelerating under this Lib-Lab partnership. Under Thatcher, public utilities were privatised. That was robbery of, and private gain from, a public asset at public expense. Privatisation went to such an extent that Harold Macmillan said it was selling off the family silver. Labour jumped up and down in raptures in support of that.", "EditedTextHTML": "As I drove care-free and toll-free down the M8 last week, I had the opportunity to listen to a folk music tape by the American folklorist Woody Guthrie, on which he sang a song about the American outlaw Pretty Boy Floyd. The lyrics say:

\"As through this world you wander you see lots of funny men, some will rob you with a six gun, and some with a fountain pen.\"

In my previous existence as a defence agent I met many people who would rob with a six gun. I have now landed in a chamber where I am meeting the individuals who would rob us with a fountain pen.

The robbery started under the Tories. It was maintained under a Labour Administration, and it is now accelerating under this Lib-Lab partnership. Under Thatcher, public utilities were privatised. That was robbery of, and private gain from, a public asset at public expense. Privatisation went to such an extent that Harold Macmillan said it was selling off the family silver. Labour jumped up and down in raptures in support of that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2112E192P495C705538", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacAskill, Kenny", "ID": 2112, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenny MacAskill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr MacAskill: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 377.0, "ContributionID": 705538, "EditedText": "I did not know the answer, but my colleague Alex Neil has kindly told me that he was. Macmillan was referring to the privatisation of public utilities. PFI is privatisation. Labour is not selling off the family silver; it is selling off the family furniture, because we are dealing with health, education and housing—the fundamental issues for individuals. I wish to comment on alternative funding and Mr McConnell's amendment. I will also touch on the points made by Mrs Smith. Mr McConnell talked about the choices. I do not want to go into great detail about Scottish public sector trusts—my colleague Andrew Wilson will do that—but Mr McConnell raised an issue that I was going to comment on: the Scottish transport bond. I note that Mr McConnell talked about the civil service brief \"Pathfinders to the Parliament\". I do not speak to many lords. Lord James is always polite to me.", "EditedTextHTML": "I did not know the answer, but my colleague Alex Neil has kindly told me that he was. Macmillan was referring to the privatisation of public utilities. PFI is privatisation. Labour is not selling off the family silver; it is selling off the family furniture, because we are dealing with health, education and housing—the fundamental issues for individuals.

I wish to comment on alternative funding and Mr McConnell's amendment. I will also touch on the points made by Mrs Smith. Mr McConnell talked about the choices. I do not want to go into great detail about Scottish public sector trusts—my colleague Andrew Wilson will do that—but Mr McConnell raised an issue that I was going to comment on: the Scottish transport bond. I note that Mr McConnell talked about the civil service brief \"Pathfinders to the Parliament\". I do not speak to many lords. Lord James is always polite to me.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2112E192P495C705540", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacAskill, Kenny", "ID": 2112, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenny MacAskill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr MacAskill: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 381.0, "ContributionID": 705540, "EditedText": "I may have misheard Mr McConnell, but I thought that he referred to a civil service brief. I have a personal letter from Lord Macdonald of Tradeston—he even signed it \"Yours, Gus Macdonald\"—and I was pleased to receive it. The letter enclosed a copy of the report of the pathfinder groups and said: \"This report brought together the findings of the 13 Pathfinder Groups that I set up and I am very pleased to enclose a copy for your consideration.\" In the penultimate paragraph, Lord Macdonald said: \"I would therefore hope that the report will be given serious consideration by Members of the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Executive and I commend it to you.\" I presume that Gus Macdonald did not send something to me that he did not also send to Mr McConnell. In that document is raised the question of, and the options for, the Scottish transport bond, which doubtless Andrew Wilson will elucidate. We are quite happy to look at alternatives if Mr McConnell is not prepared to accept the Scottish public sector trust, but we must move away from PFI, PPP or privatisation. That brings me to the issue of schools, as raised by Mrs Smith. As far as I can see, PPP means privatisation for parents and public. Mr McConnell talked about ownership. I have the document \"Private Partnerships: Investing in Education\" from the education department of Edinburgh City Council. Mr McConnell said that ownership remains with the public sector—or he alluded to it. Lo and behold, under the heading \"Why PPP?\", at the end of paragraph three, the document says: \"In practice, this means that the Council will lease rather than own the proposed new or refurbished PPP buildings and receive funding from the Scottish Office to meet rental costs.\" That is what the City of Edinburgh Labour group said.", "EditedTextHTML": "I may have misheard Mr McConnell, but I thought that he referred to a civil service brief. I have a personal letter from Lord Macdonald of Tradeston—he even signed it \"Yours, Gus Macdonald\"—and I was pleased to receive it. The letter enclosed a copy of the report of the pathfinder groups and said:

\"This report brought together the findings of the 13 Pathfinder Groups that I set up and I am very pleased to enclose a copy for your consideration.\"

In the penultimate paragraph, Lord Macdonald said:

\"I would therefore hope that the report will be given serious consideration by Members of the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Executive and I commend it to you.\"

I presume that Gus Macdonald did not send something to me that he did not also send to Mr McConnell. In that document is raised the question of, and the options for, the Scottish transport bond, which doubtless Andrew Wilson will elucidate. We are quite happy to look at alternatives if Mr McConnell is not prepared to accept the Scottish public sector trust, but we must move away from PFI, PPP or privatisation.

That brings me to the issue of schools, as raised by Mrs Smith. As far as I can see, PPP means privatisation for parents and public. Mr McConnell talked about ownership. I have the document \"Private Partnerships: Investing in Education\" from the education department of Edinburgh City Council. Mr McConnell said that ownership remains with the public sector—or he alluded to it. Lo and behold, under the heading \"Why PPP?\", at the end of paragraph three, the document says:

\"In practice, this means that the Council will lease rather than own the proposed new or refurbished PPP buildings and receive funding from the Scottish Office to meet rental costs.\"

That is what the City of Edinburgh Labour group said.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C705541", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 383.0, "ContributionID": 705541, "EditedText": "The point I was making—if Mr MacAskill listened to that part of my speech—is that the option for public ownership remains when the contracts expire and when the public interest asks that it should remain. In almost all of the PFI contracts currently in existence in Scotland, that option appears in the contract—although none of our colleagues have so far been able to name any, despite their grandiose claims—and in most cases for a nominal value. In future, where there is no practical alternative use for the project at the end of the contract period, during which cost-lease arrangements apply, there will be the option of transferring at no cost. I would be grateful if Mr MacAskill would welcome that.", "EditedTextHTML": "The point I was making—if Mr MacAskill listened to that part of my speech—is that the option for public ownership remains when the contracts expire and when the public interest asks that it should remain. In almost all of the PFI contracts currently in existence in Scotland, that option appears in the contract—although none of our colleagues have so far been able to name any, despite their grandiose claims—and in most cases for a nominal value.

In future, where there is no practical alternative use for the project at the end of the contract period, during which cost-lease arrangements apply, there will be the option of transferring at no cost. I would be grateful if Mr MacAskill would welcome that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C705542", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 385.0, "ContributionID": 705542, "EditedText": "Mr MacAskill, you must wind up your speech.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr MacAskill, you must wind up your speech.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C705544", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 389.0, "ContributionID": 705544, "EditedText": "Wind up,please, Mr MacAskill.", "EditedTextHTML": "Wind up,

please, Mr MacAskill.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4984445+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1828E200P487C705549", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacDonald, Margo", "ID": 1828, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margo MacDonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms MacDonald: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 401.0, "ContributionID": 705549, "EditedText": "I apologise to Jack McConnell, but I do not have the time to take interventions. We will talk about it at the Audit Committee, I hope. Angus Mackay went so far as to say that the medical staff at the royal infirmary were very pleased with the PFI plans. They are not. Here it is in their letter dated 31 May. They are anything but pleased; they are very concerned. They have lost all confidence in the matter being handled properly. Did it cross Angus's mind, when he spoke the words that he was given at the press conference, that there had to be a reason for the showpiece PFI being unable to attract and keep a chief executive or a director of nursing services? There is something wrong with the whole contract. I ask the minister to re-examine the matter. I apologise, but I will return to the election campaign. It looked as though Sam won the heavyweight contest with Donald Dewar. Sam said that he could reopen the books and renegotiate the part of the contract that referred to the Unison members who will lose their pension rights, a matter which he mentioned today. Donald Dewar said that the contract could not be reopened. I take it, then, that Sam won that argument. I am therefore asking that we re-examine the contract, and that we certainly stop the second PFI contract until we are convinced that there is value for money and that the BMA was not right when it stated that the medical services and the quality of services will be reduced in the new hospital.", "EditedTextHTML": "I apologise to Jack McConnell, but I do not have the time to take interventions. We will talk about it at the Audit Committee, I hope.

Angus Mackay went so far as to say that the medical staff at the royal infirmary were very pleased with the PFI plans. They are not. Here it is in their letter dated 31 May. They are anything but pleased; they are very concerned. They have lost all confidence in the matter being handled properly. Did it cross Angus's mind, when he spoke the words that he was given at the press conference, that there had to be a reason for the showpiece PFI being unable to attract and keep a chief executive or a director of nursing services? There is something wrong with the whole contract. I ask the minister to re-examine the matter.

I apologise, but I will return to the election campaign. It looked as though Sam won the heavyweight contest with Donald Dewar. Sam said that he could reopen the books and renegotiate the part of the contract that referred to the Unison members who will lose their pension rights, a matter which he mentioned today. Donald Dewar said that the contract could not be reopened. I take it, then, that Sam won that argument. I am therefore asking that we re-examine the contract, and that we certainly stop the second PFI contract until we are convinced that there is value for money and that the BMA was not right when it stated that the medical services and the quality of services will be reduced in the new hospital.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5140705+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C705554", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Murray Tosh (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 414.0, "ContributionID": 705554, "EditedText": "It has been a remarkable debate in many respects. Here we are, almost at midday, and we have heard several times the refrain that Mr Andrew Wilson will address the motion for the first time when he speaks later. It is curious to sum up for a debate which has not begun; we have not heard anything constructive or meaningful about the SNP's proposals. The nearest that we came to a real contribution was that of Mr Ingram. He took up the points of Mr Crawford and Mr Gibson: that SNP local authorities which took up PFI initiatives had to do so because it was \"the only game in town\", their arms were up their backs and there was no other choice. I wonder what position the SNP believes Her Majesty's Government is in when it embarks on a variety of methods to fund capital investment. It is no surprise—Mr Ingram referred to this—that the framework for public sector borrowing and investment in our economy is essentially dictated by sound principles of macroeconomic management, which were most recently embodied in the Maastricht treaty and in the European Reconstruction and Stability Pact. Mr Ingram made the point that, in the context of the 60 per cent and 3 per cent rules, there was scope to expand conventional public sector borrowing. There may very well be scope in the current climate, when we are very nearly at the peak of the economic cycle—but an economic cycle goes up and down. We were not in a position to meet the Maastricht treaty's requirements when it was signed; virtually no European economy was at that stage. It is a matter of good economic management.", "EditedTextHTML": "It has been a remarkable debate in many respects. Here we are, almost at midday, and we have heard several times the refrain that Mr Andrew Wilson will address the motion for the first time when he speaks later. It is curious to sum up for a debate which has not begun; we have not heard anything constructive or meaningful about the SNP's proposals.

The nearest that we came to a real contribution was that of Mr Ingram. He took up the points of Mr Crawford and Mr Gibson: that SNP local authorities which took up PFI initiatives had to do so because it was

\"the only game in town\", their arms were up their backs and there was no other choice.

I wonder what position the SNP believes Her Majesty's Government is in when it embarks on a variety of methods to fund capital investment. It is no surprise—Mr Ingram referred to this—that the framework for public sector borrowing and investment in our economy is essentially dictated by sound principles of macroeconomic management, which were most recently embodied in the Maastricht treaty and in the European Reconstruction and Stability Pact.

Mr Ingram made the point that, in the context of the 60 per cent and 3 per cent rules, there was scope to expand conventional public sector borrowing. There may very well be scope in the current climate, when we are very nearly at the peak of the economic cycle—but an economic cycle goes up and down. We were not in a position to meet the Maastricht treaty's requirements when it was signed; virtually no European economy was at that stage. It is a matter of good economic management.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5140705+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C705557", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 420.0, "ContributionID": 705557, "EditedText": "I have two questions for Mr Tosh. He mentioned housing again. Does his party support the cancellation of the capital housing debt in cities like Glasgow, given that it cancelled the debts of Scottish Homes, British Steel, British Rail, Scottish Gas and others? Secondly, does his party support the retention of the public sector borrowing requirement, or would it support the introduction of the European-wide new system of general government financial deficits?", "EditedTextHTML": "I have two questions for Mr Tosh. He mentioned housing again. Does his party support the cancellation of the capital housing debt in cities like Glasgow, given that it cancelled the debts of Scottish Homes, British Steel, British Rail, Scottish Gas and others? Secondly, does his party support the retention of the public sector borrowing requirement, or would it support the introduction of the European-wide new system of general government financial deficits?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5140705+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C705560", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 426.0, "ContributionID": 705560, "EditedText": "The Government has allowed local authorities in Scotland the latitude to indulge in consultancies and to investigate a variety of proposals to increase investment in housing through a variety of delivery mechanisms. The SNP has not suggested a public sector trust in the context of housing. It has said no—absolutely no, ideologically no, totally no—to any variation from the existing pattern of local authority tenure. They say that in the full knowledge that it means no extra resources, no ability to fund the massive housing programme that is required by that position, and they take the same position on the entire gamut of public sector policy.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Government has allowed local authorities in Scotland the latitude to indulge in consultancies and to investigate a variety of proposals to increase investment in housing through a variety of delivery mechanisms. The SNP has not suggested a public sector trust in the context of housing. It has said no—absolutely no, ideologically no, totally no—to any variation from the existing pattern of local authority tenure. They say that in the full knowledge that it means no extra resources, no ability to fund the massive housing programme that is required by that position, and they take the same position on the entire gamut of public sector policy.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5140705+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C705565", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 437.0, "ContributionID": 705565, "EditedText": "I thank Mr Tosh for a vigorous contribution to the debate. As we stand here in the General Assembly building of the Church of Scotland the ghost of Mrs Thatcher's sermon on the Mound seems to live on. The difference is that, if she were here today, she would receive not the condemnation that she had at the time, but support from the Liberal Democrat, Labour and Conservative benches. Mrs Thatcher's approach to funding public services has been embraced by the people's party, by the still-alive-but-not-quite Conservative party and by the ever-spinning and without-principle Liberal Democrats. The reality is that Labour's bluster and bluff— and Mr Galbraith's plain rudeness—failed to disguise the facts of the matter. Labour has changed the position that it held in opposition, when it utterly opposed the PFI scheme. Harriet Harman and Alistair Darling are on the record as having said as much. The Liberal Democrats have made a volte-face, but that is no surprise from a party that has lost the respect of the entire country—I would except Ms Smith from that, as she made a good speech. PFI is expensive and unnecessary. I welcome what Dr Simpson said, as it shows that we now have agreement across the political spectrum. He said—I think his words will come back to haunt him in years to come—that \"the party that introduced the first privatisation of the health service in the United Kingdom was the Labour party.\" I agree with Andy Kerr that this is about service quality and delivery. The Government makes a distinction between short-term gain and the long- term sustainability of the public sector. Prudence and sustainability must go hand in hand with delivering public services. Short-termism is the problem with PFI. PFI means signing up to a much more expensive lease deal for the delivery of public services. It is all very well to say that we will deliver hospitals and schools today—of course everyone wants that—but we must be prudent and honest about where the money is coming from. The Edinburgh royal infirmary, as Margo MacDonald said so well, will be seven times more expensive than if it was funded through borrowing under conventional mechanisms—it will cost the public purse seven times the actual cost of the project. Will Mr Galbraith answer that point in his summing up, rather than just shouting about it during the debate? The Government can issue a Treasury gilt bond at 4.5 per cent. The average return on PFI is 10 per cent. With a cost-of-capital difference of 5.5 per cent, how can the circle be squared? Will it be by hitting pay and conditions for workers? Ms Scanlon, Mr McNulty and Mr Chisholm seemed to suggest that there was no alternative to private finance. Adam Ingram—if folk were listening—made the most significant contribution to the debate today and to the PFI debate beyond this chamber. Mr Tosh mentioned Maastricht, but within the Maastricht guidelines, which everyone accepts as prudent, there is £22 billion to spare for public projects in the UK.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank Mr Tosh for a vigorous contribution to the debate. As we stand here in the General Assembly building of the Church of Scotland the ghost of Mrs Thatcher's sermon on the Mound seems to live on. The difference is that, if she were here today, she would receive not the condemnation that she had at the time, but support from the Liberal Democrat, Labour and Conservative benches. Mrs Thatcher's approach to funding public services has been embraced by the people's party, by the still-alive-but-not-quite Conservative party and by the ever-spinning and without-principle Liberal Democrats.

The reality is that Labour's bluster and bluff— and Mr Galbraith's plain rudeness—failed to disguise the facts of the matter. Labour has changed the position that it held in opposition, when it utterly opposed the PFI scheme. Harriet Harman and Alistair Darling are on the record as having said as much. The Liberal Democrats have made a volte-face, but that is no surprise from a party that has lost the respect of the entire country—I would except Ms Smith from that, as she made a good speech.

PFI is expensive and unnecessary. I welcome what Dr Simpson said, as it shows that we now have agreement across the political spectrum. He said—I think his words will come back to haunt him in years to come—that

\"the party that introduced the first privatisation of the health service in the United Kingdom was the Labour party.\"

I agree with Andy Kerr that this is about service quality and delivery. The Government makes a distinction between short-term gain and the long- term sustainability of the public sector. Prudence and sustainability must go hand in hand with delivering public services. Short-termism is the problem with PFI. PFI means signing up to a much more expensive lease deal for the delivery of public services.

It is all very well to say that we will deliver hospitals and schools today—of course everyone wants that—but we must be prudent and honest about where the money is coming from. The Edinburgh royal infirmary, as Margo MacDonald said so well, will be seven times more expensive than if it was funded through borrowing under conventional mechanisms—it will cost the public purse seven times the actual cost of the project. Will Mr Galbraith answer that point in his summing up, rather than just shouting about it during the debate?

The Government can issue a Treasury gilt bond at 4.5 per cent. The average return on PFI is 10 per cent. With a cost-of-capital difference of 5.5 per cent, how can the circle be squared? Will it be by hitting pay and conditions for workers?

Ms Scanlon, Mr McNulty and Mr Chisholm seemed to suggest that there was no alternative to private finance. Adam Ingram—if folk were listening—made the most significant contribution to the debate today and to the PFI debate beyond this chamber. Mr Tosh mentioned Maastricht, but within the Maastricht guidelines, which everyone accepts as prudent, there is £22 billion to spare for public projects in the UK.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5140705+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C705567", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 441.0, "ContributionID": 705567, "EditedText": "I was pointing out that there is an option within the existing public sector arrangements to issue bonds to the tune of £22 billion and to finance that within the Maastricht deficit limits. That is what is available to the public sector just now. The point that we have been making is that this Parliament does not have that option because, in the Scotland Act 1998, the Labour Government reserved that function to Westminster. That is regrettable but it is the case. \"Pathfinders to the Parliament\" also recognises it as regrettable.", "EditedTextHTML": "I was pointing out that there is an option within the existing public sector arrangements to issue bonds to the tune of £22 billion and to finance that within the Maastricht deficit limits. That is what is available to the public sector just now. The point that we have been making is that this Parliament does not have that option because, in the Scotland Act 1998, the Labour Government reserved that function to Westminster. That is regrettable but it is the case. \"Pathfinders to the Parliament\" also recognises it

as regrettable.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5140705+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C705569", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 445.0, "ContributionID": 705569, "EditedText": "If Mr Tosh can remain in his seat, perhaps he can come in later. In a 16-page document that has been the most substantial contribution to the privatisation debate so far—Mr Tosh should have taken the time to read it—we outlined our idea for public service trusts. That idea is a significant and positive suggestion about what can be done within the confines of devolution. We will criticise the limits of this devolved Parliament and come up with positive suggestions on how we can make public services work; I hope that we can move on and make the case. I also welcome Mr Chisholm's backing for our case for openness and accountability in public service contracts. It is critical that we know exactly what is being done in the public's name. Alistair Darling supported that position before the election. On 11 January 1997, he said in the Financial Times: \"Legitimate use of commercial confidentiality is one thing, but using it to hide the truth about the extent of the taxpayer's commitment from the public is inexcusable.\" In a very welcome announcement today, Mr McConnell said that announcements will be made by project area rather than by specific projects. Sectoral spending on specific PFI deals is a step forward. However, that is only because the scale of PFI funding is so great just now that commercial confidentiality can be hidden within those bounds. If we are to have openness and accountability, it must be on a project-by-project basis. I refer members to what Geoffrey Robinson, the former Paymaster General, said on \"Channel 4 News\" on Monday night. Of his time at the Treasury, he said: \"I wanted the idea of transparency translated into reality, if there was a question about what was commercially sensitive or not, those that were involved should respond to the spirit of what was required and should reveal more rather than less.\" Through the Finance Committee, we want to be provided with the detail of the deals involving every public-private partnership project. There should be no hiding behind commercial confidentiality. No one other than the Government knows, for instance, to whom the £20 million funding for the Holyrood project is going. Let us open up the matter and put it before the Finance Committee. I hope that Mr Galbraith will agree to that when he sums up—all members would welcome it. I now come to public service trusts. If that puts several folk on the edge of their seats, they should really have paid attention to the documents that we issued during the campaign that was launched over the weekend. On Sunday, Mr Galbraith issued what was—with the greatest respect—a very embarrassing press release condemning the campaign. Mr Galbraith did not know what he was talking about. We know that the Treasury has examined the public service trust model in detail and we know for a fact that our idea is gaining some currency. Scottish Homes is considering a similar model, as did \"Pathfinders to the Parliament\". We can cite a whole range of examples throughout Europe of the public service trust model in action.", "EditedTextHTML": "If Mr Tosh can remain in his seat, perhaps he can come in later.

In a 16-page document that has been the most substantial contribution to the privatisation debate so far—Mr Tosh should have taken the time to read it—we outlined our idea for public service trusts. That idea is a significant and positive suggestion about what can be done within the confines of devolution. We will criticise the limits of this devolved Parliament and come up with positive suggestions on how we can make public services work; I hope that we can move on and make the case.

I also welcome Mr Chisholm's backing for our case for openness and accountability in public service contracts. It is critical that we know exactly what is being done in the public's name. Alistair Darling supported that position before the election. On 11 January 1997, he said in the Financial Times:

\"Legitimate use of commercial confidentiality is one thing, but using it to hide the truth about the extent of the taxpayer's commitment from the public is inexcusable.\"

In a very welcome announcement today, Mr McConnell said that announcements will be made by project area rather than by specific projects. Sectoral spending on specific PFI deals is a step forward. However, that is only because the scale of PFI funding is so great just now that commercial confidentiality can be hidden within those bounds. If we are to have openness and accountability, it must be on a project-by-project basis.

I refer members to what Geoffrey Robinson, the former Paymaster General, said on \"Channel 4 News\" on Monday night. Of his time at the Treasury, he said:

\"I wanted the idea of transparency translated into reality, if there was a question about what was commercially sensitive or not, those that were involved should respond to the spirit of what was required and should reveal more rather than less.\"

Through the Finance Committee, we want to be provided with the detail of the deals involving every public-private partnership project. There should be no hiding behind commercial confidentiality. No one other than the Government knows, for instance, to whom the £20 million funding for the Holyrood project is going. Let us open up the matter and put it before the Finance Committee. I hope that Mr Galbraith will agree to that when he sums up—all members would welcome it.

I now come to public service trusts. If that puts several folk on the edge of their seats, they should really have paid attention to the documents that we issued during the campaign that was launched over the weekend. On Sunday, Mr Galbraith issued what was—with the greatest respect—a very embarrassing press release condemning the campaign. Mr Galbraith did not know what he was talking about. We know that the Treasury has examined the public service trust model in detail and we know for a fact that our idea is gaining some currency. Scottish Homes is considering a similar model, as did \"Pathfinders to the Parliament\". We can cite a whole range of examples throughout Europe of the public service trust model in action.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5140705+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2123E103P242C705570", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Chisholm, Malcolm", "ID": 2123, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh North and Leith" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Malcolm Chisholm", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Malcolm Chisholm: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 447.0, "ContributionID": 705570, "EditedText": "Is not \"Pathfinders to the Parliament\" more honest in admitting that what is being proposed would count as public expenditure? The document talks about borrowing that is supported by an income stream, as is the case for the transport charges that are mentioned, which is quite unlike what happens for either the health or education services.", "EditedTextHTML": "Is not \"Pathfinders to the Parliament\" more honest in admitting that what is being proposed would count as public expenditure? The document talks about borrowing that is supported by an income stream, as is the case for the transport charges that are mentioned, which is quite unlike what happens for either the health or education services.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5140705+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C705571", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 449.0, "ContributionID": 705571, "EditedText": "Mr Chisholm's first point is wrong, but his second is correct. We believe that this innovative financial arrangement should not count as part of the public sector borrowing requirement. That is reasonably straightforward. Mr Chisholm is right, however, to say that the document talks about borrowing that is secured against an income stream—as Fiona Hyslop's idea for a communities and homes trust is secured against a rental income stream—or against a guaranteed income stream from the public sector. Either way, the model works and is bang on. That is something that Malcolm Chisholm should support, given the point that he has just made. If we were to stand before the Parliament and propose healthy eating and regular exercise, Labour members would be on their feet condemning it as a left-wing plot and entirely unworkable. No matter what good ideas come before the Labour party, if it has not thought of them, it will condemn them—unless the Tories thought of them. The SNP cannot suggest anything that Labour will endorse, because Labour's is the politics not of ideas but of cynical and nasty electioneering. The way in which Labour members conducted their entire election campaign was appalling, because they offered nothing. Their only idea was to tell the electorate to vote for them because they were not the SNP. Let us hear some positive ideas that have not come from the SNP— then we might support the Labour party. As I said, the model is perfectly workable and the only criticism of substance that has been made against it was from the private sector, which did not like the idea of securing the jobs and conditions of public sector workers. Why does Labour, the people's party, disagree with our idea? We are not going to give ground; we are not going to privatise the workers at the expense of their working conditions, because we have too much respect for them. Susan Deacon may shake her head, but she must agree with the idea, as I know that she opposed PFI in the past. What changed her mind, other than a seat at the cabinet table? She and people like her should examine where their politics is going if they are willing to give up every principle that they once held to pursue PFI. I hope that members will forgive me for that dig at Susan Deacon. I could not resist it, but I want now to deal with some more positive contributions. Mr McConnell's point must be welcomed, but let us go further. It makes some sense to include land in any deals. Mr Macavity—or McAveety— probably opposed that when he served on Glasgow City Council and considered the housing deal. I know that he was very precious about some of the council's land assets. Maybe the proposal will send a shock wave across there. If it makes things work and keeps rents down, it will be better than the status quo, and I would have to support it. As Margo Macdonald pointed out, the reason that this issue has been forced is the scandal of the transfer of land during the Edinburgh royal infirmary deal. Mr Galbraith may shake his head, but land that was transferred during that deal was subsequently sold off for private housing development at six times the price that was paid for it. Will Mr Galbraith bring the figures before the Parliament? He should stand up and tell us what the reality of the situation is. That is the information that I have in front of me, but which he hides behind an argument of commercial confidentiality. The detail will be examined under the Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations 1981, which is a step forward. In summation, I say that PFI is a profiteering scam. It serves politicians well, because they are able to announce the building of new hospitals and schools and can take the kudos. The long-term pain is over a number of years and Labour members will not be here when that pain is brought down on the public sector and the taxpayers.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Chisholm's first point is wrong, but his second is correct. We believe that this innovative financial arrangement should not count as part of the public sector borrowing requirement. That is reasonably straightforward. Mr Chisholm is right, however, to say that the document talks about borrowing that is secured against an income stream—as Fiona Hyslop's idea for a communities and homes trust is secured against a rental income stream—or against a guaranteed income stream from the public sector. Either way, the model works and is bang on. That is something that Malcolm Chisholm should support, given the point that he has just made.

If we were to stand before the Parliament and propose healthy eating and regular exercise, Labour members would be on their feet condemning it as a left-wing plot and entirely unworkable. No matter what good ideas come before the Labour party, if it has not thought of them, it will condemn them—unless the Tories thought of them. The SNP cannot suggest anything that Labour will endorse, because Labour's is the politics not of ideas but of cynical and nasty electioneering. The way in which Labour members conducted their entire election campaign was appalling, because they offered nothing. Their only idea was to tell the electorate to vote for them because they were not the SNP. Let us hear some positive ideas that have not come from the SNP— then we might support the Labour party.

As I said, the model is perfectly workable and the only criticism of substance that has been made against it was from the private sector, which did not like the idea of securing the jobs and conditions of public sector workers. Why does Labour, the people's party, disagree with our idea? We are not going to give ground; we are not going

to privatise the workers at the expense of their working conditions, because we have too much respect for them. Susan Deacon may shake her head, but she must agree with the idea, as I know that she opposed PFI in the past. What changed her mind, other than a seat at the cabinet table? She and people like her should examine where their politics is going if they are willing to give up every principle that they once held to pursue PFI.

I hope that members will forgive me for that dig at Susan Deacon. I could not resist it, but I want now to deal with some more positive contributions. Mr McConnell's point must be welcomed, but let us go further. It makes some sense to include land in any deals. Mr Macavity—or McAveety— probably opposed that when he served on Glasgow City Council and considered the housing deal. I know that he was very precious about some of the council's land assets. Maybe the proposal will send a shock wave across there. If it makes things work and keeps rents down, it will be better than the status quo, and I would have to support it.

As Margo Macdonald pointed out, the reason that this issue has been forced is the scandal of the transfer of land during the Edinburgh royal infirmary deal. Mr Galbraith may shake his head, but land that was transferred during that deal was subsequently sold off for private housing development at six times the price that was paid for it. Will Mr Galbraith bring the figures before the Parliament? He should stand up and tell us what the reality of the situation is. That is the information that I have in front of me, but which he hides behind an argument of commercial confidentiality. The detail will be examined under the Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations 1981, which is a step forward.

In summation, I say that PFI is a profiteering scam. It serves politicians well, because they are able to announce the building of new hospitals and schools and can take the kudos. The long-term pain is over a number of years and Labour members will not be here when that pain is brought down on the public sector and the taxpayers.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5140705+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C705577", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 461.0, "ContributionID": 705577, "EditedText": "Mr McAveety only says that because those goals were scored against his team. I agree with him about this: we need improved schools within three years, and there are three ways of achieving that. The first is to operate within a PFI deal that exacts the cost over 25 years and hits the taxpayer over the longer term. The second is to be honest and to tell the electorate that we will finance the work in a way that is prudent over the long term and will not defer the costs to future generations. We would ask them to pay for it through traditional and progressive taxation. We offered that solution, and the Liberals suggested they might support it, but now they have performed a volte-face. The third option is the public service trust, which sits on the PFI model but does the job cheaper. Those are the options. The Parliament must be either honest or dishonest. We bring honesty to this debate, while Labour says, \"We will deliver jam today, take your votes tomorrow and disappear over the horizon once the costs come home to bear on you.\" PFI gives too much influence to the private sector. In case members do not believe me, I will quote Mr Paris Moayedi, the chief executive of Jarvis. The First Minister did not appear to have heard of Jarvis when it was first mentioned in this debate, although it is the most significant PFI funder of schools in the UK. The Channel 4 interviewer asked Mr Moayedi whether he was hoping to run a couple of hundred schools in two or three years' time, to which Mr Moayedi said yes. When the interviewer said that that would make Jarvis a very powerful player in Britain's education system, Mr Moayedi replied, \"We hope so.\" That is what is going on. That is where the PFI deal is taking us, and there are members from all parties who agree with that. I appeal to them to look to their consciences, not to their briefs or whips. They should examine the reality of politics today. We are being sold a dummy pass by people here who have performed a volte-face on their principles to get into the seats that they now hold. I ask non-Executive members to question what they are getting out of it apart from lack of principle. It will be easy to expose this matter over the next few years. I say to Mr McNulty that we have offered positive solutions, which should be taken seriously rather than dismissed out of hand. This is a serious debate about the long-term use of public funds to finance public services. We have brought some positive solutions to the debate. The Liberal Democrat business manager, Iain Smith, is smiling, but that party has disgraced itself in this Parliament and has nothing to offer the debate. If Mr Smith wants to intervene, I would be delighted to give way.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr McAveety only says that because those goals were scored against his team. I agree with him about this: we need improved schools within three years, and there are three ways of achieving that. The first is to operate within a PFI deal that exacts the cost over 25 years and hits the taxpayer over the longer term. The second is to be honest and to tell the electorate that we will finance the work in a way that is prudent over the long term and will not defer the costs to future generations. We would ask them to pay for it through traditional and progressive taxation. We offered that solution, and the Liberals suggested they might support it, but now they have performed a volte-face. The third option is the public service trust, which sits on the PFI model but does the job cheaper.

Those are the options. The Parliament must be either honest or dishonest. We bring honesty to this debate, while Labour says, \"We will deliver jam today, take your votes tomorrow and disappear over the horizon once the costs come home to bear on you.\"

PFI gives too much influence to the private sector. In case members do not believe me, I will quote Mr Paris Moayedi, the chief executive of Jarvis. The First Minister did not appear to have heard of Jarvis when it was first mentioned in this debate, although it is the most significant PFI funder of schools in the UK. The Channel 4 interviewer asked Mr Moayedi whether he was hoping to run a couple of hundred schools in two or three years' time, to which Mr Moayedi said yes. When the interviewer said that that would make Jarvis a very powerful player in Britain's education system, Mr Moayedi replied, \"We hope so.\" That is what is going on.

That is where the PFI deal is taking us, and there are members from all parties who agree with

that. I appeal to them to look to their consciences, not to their briefs or whips. They should examine the reality of politics today. We are being sold a dummy pass by people here who have performed a volte-face on their principles to get into the seats that they now hold. I ask non-Executive members to question what they are getting out of it apart from lack of principle.

It will be easy to expose this matter over the next few years. I say to Mr McNulty that we have offered positive solutions, which should be taken seriously rather than dismissed out of hand. This is a serious debate about the long-term use of public funds to finance public services. We have brought some positive solutions to the debate. The Liberal Democrat business manager, Iain Smith, is smiling, but that party has disgraced itself in this Parliament and has nothing to offer the debate. If Mr Smith wants to intervene, I would be delighted to give way.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5140705+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C705584", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Children and Education (Mr Sam Galbraith): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 476.0, "ContributionID": 705584, "EditedText": "One of the things that makes me run for my sick bag is politicians who adopt a position of moral superiority, particularly when it is tinged with patronising arrogance. I hope that we will see no more examples of that in the future. I got my usual brief for this debate and the draft speech starts off with the words: \"This has been a good debate.\"That is usually a euphemism for saying that it has not been very good, but rather variable and patchy. The thing that has characterised this debate—and it surprises me—is the extent to which so much has been said on the basis of ignorance of the subject and lack of information. As so much has been made of this issue, I thought that we would at least have stopped some of the rhetoric and got to the bottom of the matter. We should at least have read some of the documents and got a true idea about what is going on.", "EditedTextHTML": "One of the things that makes me run for my sick bag is politicians who adopt a position of moral superiority, particularly when it is tinged with patronising arrogance. I hope that we will see no more examples of that in the future.

I got my usual brief for this debate and the draft speech starts off with the words:

\"This has been a good debate.\"

That is usually a euphemism for saying that it has not been very good, but rather variable and patchy. The thing that has characterised this debate—and it surprises me—is the extent to which so much has been said on the basis of ignorance of the subject and lack of information.

As so much has been made of this issue, I thought that we would at least have stopped some of the rhetoric and got to the bottom of the matter. We should at least have read some of the documents and got a true idea about what is going on.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5140705+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C705585", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bruce Crawford rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 478.0, "ContributionID": 705585, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5140705+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C705586", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Galbraith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 480.0, "ContributionID": 705586, "EditedText": "I have only just started. If Mr Crawford will give me a bit more time, I will get round to him in a minute. I hear charges that are based on sheerignorance. All the points have been dealt with, but some people will not take true answers and just go on and on. It is normal and courteous in debates to deal with the points that have been raised, and I will deal with some of them now. must tell Margo MacDonald that the great bomb that she dropped with the devastating revelations in her leaked letter was really a bit of a damp squib. I am sure that she would agree that there is not really much in it.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have only just started. If Mr Crawford will give me a bit more time, I will get round to him in a minute.

I hear charges that are based on sheer

ignorance. All the points have been dealt with, but some people will not take true answers and just go on and on. It is normal and courteous in debates to deal with the points that have been raised, and I will deal with some of them now. must tell Margo MacDonald that the great bomb that she dropped with the devastating revelations in her leaked letter was really a bit of a damp squib. I am sure that she would agree that there is not really much in it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5140705+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C705588", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Galbraith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 484.0, "ContributionID": 705588, "EditedText": "Yes, that is what she said, but she was a bit selective in reading from it. She missed out the passage that said: \"The NRIE is a challenging project which will be a success\". She might have included that quotation.Bruce Crawford asked about level playing fields. Level playing field support, as he knows, is top- sliced off aggregate external finance. However, there is an agreement with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities whereby it will no longer be top-sliced, but will be put into AEF; it will be up to local authorities to make their own choices about pursuing such projects.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes, that is what she said, but she was a bit selective in reading from it. She missed out the passage that said:

\"The NRIE is a challenging project which will be a success\".

She might have included that quotation.

Bruce Crawford asked about level playing fields. Level playing field support, as he knows, is top- sliced off aggregate external finance. However, there is an agreement with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities whereby it will no longer be top-sliced, but will be put into AEF; it will be up to local authorities to make their own choices about pursuing such projects.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5140705+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C705592", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Galbraith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 492.0, "ContributionID": 705592, "EditedText": "Andrew Wilson also mentioned land deals. He should read the letter to his leader and he should look at the Westminster parliamentary answer to John Swinney's question. Let us get things clear. There is no rip-off on the land; the return to the developer was perhaps slightly less than can usually be expected at about 4 to 5 per cent based on a total value—once all the houses were built—of £93 million. Taking off the cost of building all the houses and the infrastructure, there is a return of 3 to 4 per cent. I understand that Bruce Crawford is a world-leading economist, so he can work out what 3 to 4 per cent of £93 million is. If he cannot, he can come back to me and I will help him.", "EditedTextHTML": "Andrew Wilson also mentioned land deals. He should read the letter to his leader and he should look at the Westminster parliamentary answer to John Swinney's question. Let us get things clear. There is no rip-off on the land; the return to the developer was perhaps slightly less than can usually be expected at about 4 to 5 per cent based on a total value—once all the houses were built—of £93 million. Taking off the cost of building all the houses and the infrastructure, there is a return of 3 to 4 per cent. I understand that Bruce Crawford is a world-leading economist, so he can work out what 3 to 4 per cent of £93 million is. If he cannot, he can come back to me and I will help him.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5140705+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C705593", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bruce Crawford: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 494.0, "ContributionID": 705593, "EditedText": "I am grateful for the information on level playing field support that was provided to members today. Obviously, level playing field support was introduced as a mechanism to equalise against the capital projects that were formerly being undertaken by local authorities. Is the minister confirming that that level playing field support, which was brought in for that purpose, no longer has any headroom and that all the costs associated with future PFI projects undertaken by local authorities will have to be borne by local taxpayers?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful for the information on level playing field support that was provided to members today. Obviously, level playing field support was introduced as a mechanism to equalise against the capital projects that were formerly being undertaken by local authorities. Is the minister confirming that that level playing field support, which was brought in for that purpose, no longer has any headroom and that all the costs associated with future PFI projects undertaken by local authorities will have to be borne by local taxpayers?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5140705+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1828E200P487C705597", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacDonald, Margo", "ID": 1828, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margo MacDonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms MacDonald rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 502.0, "ContributionID": 705597, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5140705+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C705600", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Galbraith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 508.0, "ContributionID": 705600, "EditedText": "I am sorry, Tommy, I am coming to the end of my speech. The royal infirmary has been waiting for 25 years for its new hospital. I worked there, and it was a disgrace then. Now it has its new one. Glasgow can have its schools refurbished and highly equipped. That can be done in three years, or we can wait 20 years.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry, Tommy, I am coming to the end of my speech.

The royal infirmary has been waiting for 25 years for its new hospital. I worked there, and it was a disgrace then. Now it has its new one. Glasgow can have its schools refurbished and highly equipped. That can be done in three years, or we can wait 20 years.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5140705+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C705604", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 516.0, "ContributionID": 705604, "EditedText": "That concludes the debate. The decision on the amendment and on the motion will be taken at 5 pm.", "EditedTextHTML": "That concludes the debate. The decision on the amendment and on the motion will be taken at 5 pm.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5140705+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2228E151P202C705606", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26660, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 518.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 518.0, "ID": 26660, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McCabe, Tom", "ID": 2228, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Tom McCabe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Parliament (Mr Tom McCabe): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 522.0, "ContributionID": 705606, "EditedText": "Before I move the motion, it may assist both members and the public if I explain how the whole of the next week is to shape up in Parliament. Monday will be available to members for constituency duties and for preparatory work relating to their committee and chamber business commitments. Tuesday and Wednesday have been earmarked for committee work, details of which will be published in the business bulletin. On Thursday, the official opening ceremony of the Parliament will take place and will be attended by Her Majesty the Queen. On Friday, the Parliament will meet for the first time with its full powers, and business on that day will be as follows. We will meet at 9.30 am to take oral questions. That will be followed at 10.15 am by a statement from the Minister for Communities on the McIntosh report, followed by a debate on that statement. Motions on the establishment of an independent committee of inquiry on student finance, on the appointment of members to committees and on the register of members' interests are also expected to be taken on that day. After decision time on Friday, there will be a member's business debate on the subject of David Davidson's motion on the application of the urban waste water treatment directive to the fish processing industry. Proposed business for after the recess will be notified to members via the business bulletin some time in mid-August, in advance of the Parliament resuming. Those proposals will be put to the Parliament as the first item of business on Wednesday 1 September. I move,That the Parliament agrees the following programme of business— Friday 2 July9.30 am Question Time10.00 am Open Question Time followed by, no later than 10.15, Statement by the Minister for Communities and debate on the McIntosh Committee report; followed by, Motion to establish an Independent Committee of Inquiry on Student Finance; followed by, Motion on Appointments to Committees (to be taken without debate); followed by, Motion on the Register of Members' Interests (to be taken without debate).12.30 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business— Debate on the subject of motion SM1-58 in the name of David Davidson on the fish processing industry To be concluded no later than 30 minutes after the commencement of the debate without any question being put. Wednesday 1 September2.30 pm Business Motion followed by, Executive Business 5.00 pm Decision Time followed by, Members' Business Thursday 2 September9.30 am Executive Business2.30 pm Question Time3.00 pm Open Question Time followed by, no later than 3.15, Executive Business 5.00 pm Decision Time followed by, Members' Business.", "EditedTextHTML": "Before I move the motion, it may assist both members and the public if I explain how the whole of the next week is to shape up in Parliament. Monday will be available to members for constituency duties and for preparatory work relating to their committee and chamber business commitments. Tuesday and Wednesday have been earmarked for committee work, details of which will be published in the business bulletin. On Thursday, the official opening ceremony of the Parliament will take place and will be attended by Her Majesty the Queen.

On Friday, the Parliament will meet for the first time with its full powers, and business on that day will be as follows. We will meet at 9.30 am to take oral questions. That will be followed at 10.15 am by a statement from the Minister for Communities on the McIntosh report, followed by a debate on that statement. Motions on the establishment of an independent committee of inquiry on student finance, on the appointment of members to committees and on the register of members' interests are also expected to be taken on that day.

After decision time on Friday, there will be a member's business debate on the subject of David Davidson's motion on the application of the urban waste water treatment directive to the fish processing industry.

Proposed business for after the recess will be notified to members via the business bulletin some time in mid-August, in advance of the Parliament resuming. Those proposals will be put to the Parliament as the first item of business on Wednesday 1 September.

I move,

That the Parliament agrees the following programme of business—

Friday 2 July

9.30 am Question Time

10.00 am Open Question Time followed by, no later than 10.15, Statement by the Minister for Communities and debate on the McIntosh Committee report; followed by, Motion to establish an Independent Committee of Inquiry on Student Finance; followed by, Motion on Appointments to Committees (to be taken without debate); followed by, Motion on the Register of Members' Interests (to be taken without debate).

12.30 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business—

Debate on the subject of motion SM1-58 in the name of David Davidson on the fish processing industry

To be concluded no later than 30 minutes after the commencement of the debate without any question being put.

Wednesday 1 September

2.30 pm Business Motion followed by, Executive Business

5.00 pm Decision Time followed by, Members' Business

Thursday 2 September

9.30 am Executive Business

2.30 pm Question Time

3.00 pm Open Question Time followed by, no later than 3.15, Executive Business

5.00 pm Decision Time followed by, Members' Business.

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" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5140705+00:00" }, { "ID": "C705611", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26660, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 518.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 518.0, "ID": 26660, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 530.0, "ContributionID": 705611, "EditedText": "On resuming—", "EditedTextHTML": "On resuming—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5140705+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C705612", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26661, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 531.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 531.0, "ID": 26661, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 532.0, "ContributionID": 705612, "EditedText": "The first item of business this afternoon is question time. I remind members that, during the closed question period, the member asking the question should do so without departing from the terms of the question as published in the business bulletin. Supplementary questions should be brief and should refer to the same subject as the question. I call Michael Russell to ask the first question.", "EditedTextHTML": "The first item of business this afternoon is question time. I remind members that, during the closed question period, the member asking the question should do so without departing from the terms of the question as published in the business bulletin. Supplementary questions should be brief and should refer to the same subject as the question.

I call Michael Russell to ask the first question.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5140705+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C705615", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26661, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 531.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26662, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 534.0, "QuestionHeading": "Scottish Arts Council", "QuestionHeadingID": 26663, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 535.0, "DisplayOrder": 535.0, "ID": 26663, "ParentID": 26662 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 540.0, "ContributionID": 705615, "EditedText": "I thank the minister for his answer, although it was not the one that I was hoping for. I draw his attention to the information bulletin from the Arts Council, a document which, as he is the minister responsible, I am sure he has read. It lists the council's committees. There are around 180 people on the list, of whom only 30 are working artists. Does the minister agree that it is important, even if the structure and function are not to be reviewed, that we find a mechanism whereby working artists can feel some ownership of the Arts Council, rather than seeing it owned by people who might have a more limited involvement in the arts?", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the minister for his answer, although it was not the one that I was hoping for.

I draw his attention to the information bulletin from the Arts Council, a document which, as he is the minister responsible, I am sure he has read. It lists the council's committees. There are around 180 people on the list, of whom only 30 are working artists. Does the minister agree that it is important, even if the structure and function are not to be reviewed, that we find a mechanism whereby working artists can feel some ownership of the Arts Council, rather than seeing it owned by people who might have a more limited involvement in the arts?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5140705+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2142E142P230C705622", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26661, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 531.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26662, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 534.0, "QuestionHeading": "Voluntary Sector", "QuestionHeadingID": 26665, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 551.0, "DisplayOrder": 551.0, "ID": 26665, "ParentID": 26662 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Watson, Mike", "ID": 2142, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Cathcart" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Watson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mike Watson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 556.0, "ContributionID": 705622, "EditedText": "I welcome that response and I am sure that it includes Scottish executive agencies and non-departmental public bodies. The minister will be aware that around 50 per cent of the people in Scotland take part in voluntary activity annually. That contributes an amazing figure of almost £4 billion to the Scottish economy every year. Those figures are extrapolated from a survey that was carried out in England two years ago. Will the minister consider initiating baseline research into volunteering in Scotland? That would be of considerable benefit in mapping out the future of volunteering.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome that response and I am sure that it includes Scottish executive agencies and non-departmental public bodies.

The minister will be aware that around 50 per cent of the people in Scotland take part in voluntary activity annually. That contributes an amazing figure of almost £4 billion to the Scottish economy every year. Those figures are extrapolated from a survey that was carried out in England two years ago. Will the minister consider initiating baseline research into volunteering in Scotland? That would be of considerable benefit in mapping out the future of volunteering.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5140705+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C705623", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26661, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 531.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26662, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 534.0, "QuestionHeading": "Voluntary Sector", "QuestionHeadingID": 26665, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 551.0, "DisplayOrder": 551.0, "ID": 26665, "ParentID": 26662 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 558.0, "ContributionID": 705623, "EditedText": "I am happy to give Mr Watson the undertaking for which he asks. We will undertake baseline research on volunteering in Scotland to give us specifically Scottish data.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am happy to give Mr Watson the undertaking for which he asks. We will

undertake baseline research on volunteering in Scotland to give us specifically Scottish data.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5140705+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1889E118P162C705626", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26661, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 531.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26662, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 534.0, "QuestionHeading": "Tourist Boards", "QuestionHeadingID": 26666, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 560.0, "DisplayOrder": 560.0, "ID": 26666, "ParentID": 26662 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morrison, Mr Alasdair", "ID": 1889, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Western Isles" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morrison", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Morrison: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 565.0, "ContributionID": 705626, "EditedText": "I understand and appreciate the concerns of the ATBs. However, any review that we undertake will be done properly and will be well thought out. We will not be rushed or forced to arrive at hasty conclusions. We will initiate a review and, most important, we will listen to the views of local partners over the next few months.", "EditedTextHTML": "I understand and appreciate the concerns of the ATBs. However, any review that we undertake will be done properly and will be well thought out. We will not be rushed or forced to arrive at hasty conclusions. We will initiate a review and, most important, we will listen to the views of local partners over the next few months.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5140705+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1840E82P158C705628", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26661, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 531.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26662, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 534.0, "QuestionHeading": "Schools", "QuestionHeadingID": 26667, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 567.0, "DisplayOrder": 567.0, "ID": 26667, "ParentID": 26662 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macmillan, Maureen", "ID": 1840, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Maureen Macmillan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Maureen Macmillan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 570.0, "ContributionID": 705628, "EditedText": "How far will the responsibility for target setting be devolved to schools?", "EditedTextHTML": "How far will the responsibility for target setting be devolved to schools?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5140705+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2100E64P254C705642", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26661, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 531.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26662, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 534.0, "QuestionHeading": "Fishing (Safety)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26670, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 592.0, "DisplayOrder": 592.0, "ID": 26670, "ParentID": 26662 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Home Robertson, John", "ID": 2100, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Lothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "John Home Robertson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Home Robertson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 601.0, "ContributionID": 705642, "EditedText": "Mr Lochhead is missing the point. Maritime safety is a reserved responsibility of the Westminster Parliament. We will keep in touch with our colleagues in Westminster to ensure that Scottish interests are protected.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Lochhead is missing the point. Maritime safety is a reserved responsibility of the Westminster Parliament. We will keep in touch with our colleagues in Westminster to ensure that Scottish interests are protected.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1970E66P288C705643", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26661, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 531.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26662, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 534.0, "QuestionHeading": "Culture", "QuestionHeadingID": 26671, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 603.0, "DisplayOrder": 603.0, "ID": 26671, "ParentID": 26662 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNulty, Des", "ID": 1970, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Clydebank and Milngavie" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Des McNulty", "SpeakerDisplayName": "9. Des McNulty (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 604.0, "ContributionID": 705643, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has to fulfil its commitment to develop a national cultural strategy. (S1O-113) The Deputy Minister for Culture and Sport (Rhona Brankin): We expect to issue a consultation document shortly. We have appointed a small group of people with expertise in that area to focus on the development of that strategy.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has to fulfil its commitment to develop a national cultural strategy. (S1O-113) The Deputy Minister for Culture and Sport (Rhona Brankin): We expect to issue a consultation document shortly. We have appointed a small group of people with expertise in that area to focus on the development of that strategy.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1970E66P288C705644", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26661, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 531.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26662, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 534.0, "QuestionHeading": "Culture", "QuestionHeadingID": 26671, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 603.0, "DisplayOrder": 603.0, "ID": 26671, "ParentID": 26662 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNulty, Des", "ID": 1970, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Clydebank and Milngavie" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Des McNulty", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Des McNulty: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 606.0, "ContributionID": 705644, "EditedText": "Will the minister assure me that there will be a full process of consultation, and that the outcome of that process will be brought back to the relevant committee of the Parliament for discussion?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister assure me that there will be a full process of consultation, and that the outcome of that process will be brought back to the relevant committee of the Parliament for discussion?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1862E99P179C705645", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26661, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 531.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26662, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 534.0, "QuestionHeading": "Culture", "QuestionHeadingID": 26671, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 603.0, "DisplayOrder": 603.0, "ID": 26671, "ParentID": 26662 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Brankin, Rhona", "ID": 1862, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Midlothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Culture and Sport", "SpeakerName": "Rhona Brankin", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Rhona Brankin: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 608.0, "ContributionID": 705645, "EditedText": "Yes, the process is intended to be as inclusive as possible. We are arranging a series of meetings over the summer in order to consult people across Scotland. We also expect that individuals and organisations will put in written submissions, if they so wish, and that the Parliament will have an important role in the consultation process.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes, the process is intended to be as inclusive as possible. We are arranging a series of meetings over the summer in order to consult people across Scotland. We also expect that individuals and organisations will put in written submissions, if they so wish, and that the Parliament will have an important role in the consultation process.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C705652", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26661, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 531.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26662, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 534.0, "QuestionHeading": "Teenage Pregnancies", "QuestionHeadingID": 26673, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 619.0, "DisplayOrder": 619.0, "ID": 26673, "ParentID": 26662 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 624.0, "ContributionID": 705652, "EditedText": "The Executive very much recognises the link between poverty and ill health in many areas. The problem of teenage pregnancies is very complex and requires us to consider imaginative solutions that cut across different departments; I am discussing how to go about that with my colleagues. We will draw up appropriate plans to deal with the specific needs that we have in Scotland and which will take a sensible and mature approach to this important and complicated area.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Executive very much recognises the link between poverty and ill health in many areas. The problem of teenage pregnancies is very complex and requires us to consider imaginative solutions that cut across different departments; I am discussing how to go about that with my colleagues. We will draw up appropriate plans to deal with the specific needs that we have in Scotland and which will take a sensible and mature approach to this important and complicated area.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1876E194P490C705653", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26661, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 531.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26662, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 534.0, "QuestionHeading": "Teenage Pregnancies", "QuestionHeadingID": 26673, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 619.0, "DisplayOrder": 619.0, "ID": 26673, "ParentID": 26662 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Marwick, Tricia", "ID": 1876, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tricia Marwick", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tricia Marwick: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 626.0, "ContributionID": 705653, "EditedText": "I want to ask one more supplementary question. The Department of Health's new unit dealing with teenage pregnancy has been awarded £60 million over the next three years. Will the minister confirm that a similar amount will be available for projects in Scotland?", "EditedTextHTML": "I want to ask one more supplementary question. The Department of Health's new unit dealing with teenage pregnancy has been awarded £60 million over the next three years. Will the minister confirm that a similar amount will be available for projects in Scotland?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2112E192P495C705656", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26661, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 531.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26662, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 534.0, "QuestionHeading": "Tolls", "QuestionHeadingID": 26674, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 630.0, "DisplayOrder": 630.0, "ID": 26674, "ParentID": 26662 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacAskill, Kenny", "ID": 2112, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenny MacAskill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr MacAskill: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 633.0, "ContributionID": 705656, "EditedText": "Does not the minister agree that the Skye bridge, which we mentioned this morning during the PFI debate, was built using private finance and seeks private returns? However, the Forth road bridge, in particular, was built with public money, was paid for by the public and has been paid off by the public. Why are we still paying tolls and how will the Government and the Executive abolish them?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does not the minister agree that the Skye bridge, which we mentioned this morning during the PFI debate, was built using private finance and seeks private returns? However, the Forth road bridge, in particular, was built with public money, was paid for by the public and has been paid off by the public. Why are we still paying tolls and how will the Government and the Executive abolish them?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C705659", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26661, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 531.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26662, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 534.0, "QuestionHeading": "Schools", "QuestionHeadingID": 26675, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 637.0, "DisplayOrder": 637.0, "ID": 26675, "ParentID": 26662 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Children and Education (Mr Sam Galbraith): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 640.0, "ContributionID": 705659, "EditedText": "Our guiding principle is that every school should embrace the principle of continuous improvement. Target setting is important and we will work with schools and education authorities to make it as effective as possible.", "EditedTextHTML": "Our guiding principle is that every school should embrace the principle of continuous improvement. Target setting is important and we will work with schools and education authorities to make it as effective as possible.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C705661", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26661, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 531.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26662, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 534.0, "QuestionHeading": "Schools", "QuestionHeadingID": 26675, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 637.0, "DisplayOrder": 637.0, "ID": 26675, "ParentID": 26662 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Galbraith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 644.0, "ContributionID": 705661, "EditedText": "I do not agree with Nicola's first point. The teaching profession has shown support for this method of setting targets. My colleague Peter Peacock was at St Francis Primary School in Niddrie, at which teachers said that the targets were absolutely essential to enhance their school's status. Once again, I detect the general vein of complaining about things but never coming up with something constructive. Target setting as a principle is not negotiable. What is negotiable is the ways in which target setting can be improved. I look forward to Nicola bringing her suggestions to me.", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not agree with Nicola's first point. The teaching profession has shown support for this method of setting targets. My colleague Peter Peacock was at St Francis Primary School in Niddrie, at which teachers said that the targets were absolutely essential to enhance their school's status.

Once again, I detect the general vein of complaining about things but never coming up with something constructive. Target setting as a principle is not negotiable. What is negotiable is the ways in which target setting can be improved. I look forward to Nicola bringing her suggestions to me.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C705671", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26661, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 531.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26662, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 534.0, "QuestionHeading": "Dental Health", "QuestionHeadingID": 26679, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 667.0, "DisplayOrder": 667.0, "ID": 26679, "ParentID": 26662 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "18. Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 668.0, "ContributionID": 705671, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what measures it intends to take to reduce dental decay in children under the age of 14. (S1O-111) The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): Dental decay is a serious problem among children in Scotland. Health boards are tackling it now through health education, incentives to dentists and other initiatives. The Scottish Executive will build on that and will develop the agenda set out in the public health white paper, working towards the target of 60 per cent of five-year-olds with no experience of dental disease by 2010.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what measures it intends to take to reduce dental decay in children under the age of 14. (S1O-111) The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): Dental decay is a serious problem among children in Scotland. Health boards are tackling it now through health education, incentives to dentists and other initiatives. The Scottish Executive will build on that and will develop the agenda set out in the public health white paper, working towards the target of 60 per cent of five-year-olds with no experience of dental disease by 2010.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C705672", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26661, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 531.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26662, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 534.0, "QuestionHeading": "Dental Health", "QuestionHeadingID": 26679, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 667.0, "DisplayOrder": 667.0, "ID": 26679, "ParentID": 26662 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 670.0, "ContributionID": 705672, "EditedText": "Dental decay and oral cancer is the most common reason for admission of under14- year-olds to in-patient and day-care beds in Scotland. Alleviation of the problem of dental decay and oral cancer would reduce preventable pain and save money in primary and secondary health care. Will the minister take up the British Dental Association's suggestion of including oral hygiene, diet advice and registration with a dentist in standard health checks, or as part of the pre-school education programme?", "EditedTextHTML": "Dental decay and oral cancer is the most common reason for admission of under14- year-olds to in-patient and day-care beds in Scotland. Alleviation of the problem of dental decay and oral cancer would reduce preventable pain and save money in primary and secondary health care. Will the minister take up the British Dental Association's suggestion of including oral hygiene, diet advice and registration with a dentist in standard health checks, or as part of the pre-school education programme?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C705673", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26661, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 531.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26662, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 534.0, "QuestionHeading": "Dental Health", "QuestionHeadingID": 26679, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 667.0, "DisplayOrder": 667.0, "ID": 26679, "ParentID": 26662 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 672.0, "ContributionID": 705673, "EditedText": "As Mrs Scanlon rightly suggests, the British Dental Association has published a comprehensive paper in which it raises a number of important dental health issues that I think the Parliament ought to consider. We in Scotland have a poor record of dental health, and we need to improve the dental health of children in particular. We will have to consider diet, oral and dental hygiene and education. I also think that this Parliament should consider the fluoridation of public water supplies, which has not been considered in Scotland for a generation.", "EditedTextHTML": "As Mrs Scanlon rightly suggests, the British Dental Association has published a comprehensive paper in which it raises a number of important dental health issues that I think the Parliament ought to consider. We in Scotland have a poor record of dental health, and we need to improve the dental health of children in particular. We will have to consider diet, oral and dental hygiene and education. I also think that this Parliament should consider the fluoridation of public water supplies, which has not been considered in Scotland for a generation.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1962E35P56C705676", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26661, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 531.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26662, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 534.0, "QuestionHeading": "Dumfries and Galloway", "QuestionHeadingID": 26680, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 674.0, "DisplayOrder": 674.0, "ID": 26680, "ParentID": 26662 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mundell, David", "ID": 1962, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Mundell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David Mundell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 679.0, "ContributionID": 705676, "EditedText": "Does the minister accept that public confidence is an important element in the provision of police and fire services and that the creation of larger and more remote brigades and forces would undermine that confidence while providing little or no service benefit to people in areas such as Dumfries and Galloway?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the minister accept that public confidence is an important element in the provision of police and fire services and that the creation of larger and more remote brigades and forces would undermine that confidence while providing little or no service benefit to people in areas such as Dumfries and Galloway?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C705677", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26661, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 531.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26662, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 534.0, "QuestionHeading": "Dumfries and Galloway", "QuestionHeadingID": 26680, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 674.0, "DisplayOrder": 674.0, "ID": 26680, "ParentID": 26662 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Angus Mackay: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 681.0, "ContributionID": 705677, "EditedText": "I fully accept that retention of public confidence in police and fire services is critical. That is precisely why, after announcing a review, the steering group will now be composed of representatives of the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities, the police service and the fire service. We have repeatedly made it clear that any change to the structure of services would have to leave in place services that are both locally based and locally accountable.", "EditedTextHTML": "I fully accept that retention of public confidence in police and fire services is critical. That is precisely why, after announcing a review, the steering group will now be composed of representatives of the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities, the police service and the fire service. We have repeatedly made it clear that any change to the structure of services would have to leave in place services that are both locally based and locally accountable.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C705680", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26661, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 531.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26662, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 534.0, "QuestionHeading": "Domestic Violence", "QuestionHeadingID": 26681, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 683.0, "DisplayOrder": 683.0, "ID": 26681, "ParentID": 26662 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 688.0, "ContributionID": 705680, "EditedText": "Sentencing in individual cases is a matter for the courts. However, it is important to recognise, as Ms Cunningham does, that breach of the peace can apply to some very serious offences. The Crown often recognises that and brings the cases on indictment. In 1997, 11 breach of the peace cases were taken on indictment and a total of 1,378 people received custodial sentences for that offence. The High Court recently passed an eight-year sentence in a breach of the peace case which involved stalking.", "EditedTextHTML": "Sentencing in individual cases is a matter for the courts. However, it is important to recognise, as Ms Cunningham does, that breach of the peace can apply to some very serious offences. The Crown often recognises that and brings the cases on indictment. In 1997, 11 breach of the peace cases were taken on indictment and a total of 1,378 people received custodial sentences for that offence. The High Court recently passed an eight-year sentence in a breach of the peace case which involved stalking.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2090E83P266C705682", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26661, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 531.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26662, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 534.0, "QuestionHeading": "Local Authorities", "QuestionHeadingID": 26682, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 690.0, "DisplayOrder": 690.0, "ID": 26682, "ParentID": 26662 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAllion, Mr John", "ID": 2090, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dundee East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John McAllion", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McAllion: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 693.0, "ContributionID": 705682, "EditedText": "The minister will be aware that a combination of boundary changes and mismatched funding following the move to single- tier authorities, together with the flight of the new affluent middle classes across the new boundaries and, above all, concentrations of deprivation and poverty, have badly affected councils such as Dundee and Glasgow, and left them facing the dire combination of having to charge ever higher council taxes while they are forced to make cuts in council services. Given that only 1 per cent or so of the current criteria used to allocate funds to local authorities cover factors relating to poverty and deprivation, can the minister assure us that, as part of the review, much more weight will be given to matters relating to those factors and that the plight of Glasgow and Dundee will be addressed by the Executive?", "EditedTextHTML": "The minister will be aware that a combination of boundary changes and mismatched funding following the move to single- tier authorities, together with the flight of the new affluent middle classes across the new boundaries and, above all, concentrations of deprivation and poverty, have badly affected councils such as Dundee and Glasgow, and left them facing the dire combination of having to charge ever higher council taxes while they are forced to make cuts in council services.

Given that only 1 per cent or so of the current criteria used to allocate funds to local authorities cover factors relating to poverty and deprivation, can the minister assure us that, as part of the review, much more weight will be given to matters relating to those factors and that the plight of Glasgow and Dundee will be addressed by the Executive?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C705684", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26683, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 697.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 697.0, "ID": 26683, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 698.0, "ContributionID": 705684, "EditedText": "We now move to open question time. Members who wish to ask supplementaries should be ready to press their buttons as the questions come up.", "EditedTextHTML": "We now move to open question time. Members who wish to ask supplementaries should be ready to press their buttons as the questions come up.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C705688", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26683, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 697.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26684, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "QuestionHeading": "Economy", "QuestionHeadingID": 26685, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 701.0, "DisplayOrder": 701.0, "ID": 26685, "ParentID": 26684 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 708.0, "ContributionID": 705688, "EditedText": "Yes. In the dynamic financial services sector it is vital to the Scottish economy. It is important that members of the Scottish Parliament are seen to support enterprise when jobs and headquarters are being secured. Scottish Widows' customer base is being widened from 2 million to 15 million in the United Kingdom and more than 2,200 outlets are being opened to it. The funds under management will increase from more than £30 billion to more than £80 billion, which will mean that the financial services sector in Edinburgh will deal with more than £250 billion- worth of funds under management. That will take it to the level of Frankfurt, and will probably mean that it overtakes Frankfurt as the fifth largest financial centre that deals with new unit trusts and management funding. Members need to be aware of the issues involved. We clearly need to ensure that we invest in our financial services sector. At the end of the day this must be an issue of paramount importance to Scotland. Today's editorial in The Scotsman says:\"By their response to this deal . . . MSPs . . . can exercisetheir responsibility to protect the public interest while simultaneously telegraphing their desire to foster further . . . success stories.\" The Royal Bank of Scotland plc, Stagecoach Holdings plc, British Energy plc and Scottish Power plc are all benchmarks of success and we should never talk them down.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes. In the dynamic financial services sector it is vital to the Scottish economy. It is important that members of the Scottish Parliament are seen to support enterprise when jobs and headquarters are being secured. Scottish Widows' customer base is being widened from 2 million to 15 million in the United Kingdom and more than 2,200 outlets are being opened to it. The funds under management will increase from more than £30 billion to more than £80 billion, which will mean that the financial services sector in Edinburgh will deal with more than £250 billion- worth of funds under management. That will take it to the level of Frankfurt, and will probably mean that it overtakes Frankfurt as the fifth largest financial centre that deals with new unit trusts and management funding.

Members need to be aware of the issues involved. We clearly need to ensure that we invest in our financial services sector. At the end of the day this must be an issue of paramount importance to Scotland.

Today's editorial in The Scotsman says:

\"By their response to this deal . . . MSPs . . . can exercise

their responsibility to protect the public interest while simultaneously telegraphing their desire to foster further . . . success stories.\"

The Royal Bank of Scotland plc, Stagecoach Holdings plc, British Energy plc and Scottish Power plc are all benchmarks of success and we should never talk them down.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C705690", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26683, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 697.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26684, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "QuestionHeading": "Economy", "QuestionHeadingID": 26685, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 701.0, "DisplayOrder": 701.0, "ID": 26685, "ParentID": 26684 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 712.0, "ContributionID": 705690, "EditedText": "The deal must go through a de-mutualisation process and there are certainly regulatory authority issues to be considered. I must say, though, that we must not start this Parliament off by talking down the Scottish economy or any element of it. What is important is that the alliance between Scottish Widows and Lloyds TSB means that they will have 7 per cent of the United Kingdom market of funds under management. The headquarters will be in Edinburgh. If the customer base is extended, there will be an increase in jobs. My right honourable friend and I—sorry, I broke into Westminster speech. The First Minister and I met chief executives and chairmen of the two companies yesterday. We sought and were given assurances. We need always to put Scotland's long-term economic interests first. We must never trivialise them and talk them down. Let us support success and let us hope that that alliance turns into a big success for Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "The deal must go through a de-mutualisation process and there are certainly regulatory authority issues to be considered. I must say, though, that we must not start this Parliament off by talking down the Scottish economy or any element of it. What is important is that the alliance between Scottish Widows and Lloyds TSB means that they will have 7 per cent of the United Kingdom market of funds under management. The headquarters will be in Edinburgh. If the customer base is extended, there will be an increase in jobs.

My right honourable friend and I—sorry, I broke into Westminster speech. The First Minister and I met chief executives and chairmen of the two companies yesterday. We sought and were given assurances. We need always to put Scotland's long-term economic interests first. We must never trivialise them and talk them down. Let us support success and let us hope that that alliance turns into a big success for Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C705691", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26683, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 697.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26684, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "QuestionHeading": "Economy", "QuestionHeadingID": 26685, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 701.0, "DisplayOrder": 701.0, "ID": 26685, "ParentID": 26684 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Keith Raffan (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 714.0, "ContributionID": 705691, "EditedText": "What plans has the minister for encouraging research and development, and particularly for strengthening the links between our universities and industry?", "EditedTextHTML": "What plans has the minister for encouraging research and development, and particularly for strengthening the links between our universities and industry?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C705697", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26683, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 697.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26684, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "QuestionHeading": "Education", "QuestionHeadingID": 26686, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 718.0, "DisplayOrder": 718.0, "ID": 26686, "ParentID": 26684 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 727.0, "ContributionID": 705697, "EditedText": "I find it quite extraordinary that having rapped me rather pompously over the knuckles on the grounds that I am making accusations against teachers and seeing darkness in their activities on all sides, Mr McLetchie gives us a question that clearly implies that he thinks that too much is being spent on bureaucracy and that funds are being maladministered. I do not jump to that conclusion. I rely on local authorities, with whom I look forward to working through the inspectorate and the department, to ensure that, given their circumstances, the right balance is struck. The common aim that unites us all is the need to support children with needs, to allow them to realise their ability and to equip them to compete in future life. If we do that, rather than assume that something terrible is happening—as Mr McLetchie implied—we will get on a good deal better.", "EditedTextHTML": "I find it quite extraordinary that having rapped me rather pompously over the knuckles on the grounds that I am making accusations against teachers and seeing darkness in their activities on all sides, Mr McLetchie gives us a question that clearly implies that he thinks that too much is being spent on bureaucracy and that funds are being maladministered.

I do not jump to that conclusion. I rely on local authorities, with whom I look forward to working through the inspectorate and the department, to ensure that, given their circumstances, the right balance is struck. The common aim that unites us all is the need to support children with needs, to allow them to realise their ability and to equip them to compete in future life. If we do that, rather than assume that something terrible is happening—as Mr McLetchie implied—we will get on a good deal better.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C705699", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26683, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 697.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26684, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "QuestionHeading": "Education", "QuestionHeadingID": 26686, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 718.0, "DisplayOrder": 718.0, "ID": 26686, "ParentID": 26684 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 731.0, "ContributionID": 705699, "EditedText": "I am not aware that we are continually restricting their ability to act locally. We have increased funding and we have taken steps to ensure that it is used in the areas for which it was intended. That does not detract from the wide sweep of discretion that applies to local authorities across the range of their education budget. I repeat again that the Government has an interest—a proper interest—in ensuring that we give children the best possible chances. I think that everyone, including everyone in education authorities, shares that view. There is no reason why we should not work in harmony to achieve those aims, but we are not helped in that by the constant accusations from the Scottish National party—which were a such a feature of the election—that the instinct of everyone in the Labour party, if they see a teacher, is to punch them on the nose. That is not the spirit in which we approach the problems of education.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am not aware that we are continually restricting their ability to act locally. We have increased funding and we have taken steps to ensure that it is used in the areas for which it was intended. That does not detract from the wide sweep of discretion that applies to local authorities across the range of their education budget. I repeat again that the Government has an interest—a proper interest—in ensuring that we give children the best possible chances. I think that everyone, including everyone in education authorities, shares that view.

There is no reason why we should not work in harmony to achieve those aims, but we are not helped in that by the constant accusations from the Scottish National party—which were a such a feature of the election—that the instinct of everyone in the Labour party, if they see a teacher, is to punch them on the nose. That is not the spirit in which we approach the problems of education.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C705702", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26683, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 697.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26684, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "QuestionHeading": "Roads Review", "QuestionHeadingID": 26687, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 733.0, "DisplayOrder": 733.0, "ID": 26687, "ParentID": 26684 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 738.0, "ContributionID": 705702, "EditedText": "Does the minister accept that an efficient modern trunk road network is critical to economic development in Scotland and a key consideration in industrial location, attracting inward investment and developing indigenous industries? Does she also accept that it is therefore critical in reducing unemployment and in tackling social exclusion?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the minister accept that an efficient modern trunk road network is critical to economic development in Scotland and a key consideration in industrial location, attracting inward investment and developing indigenous industries? Does she also accept that it is therefore critical in reducing unemployment and in tackling social exclusion?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C705708", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26683, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 697.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26684, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "QuestionHeading": "Roads Review", "QuestionHeadingID": 26687, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 733.0, "DisplayOrder": 733.0, "ID": 26687, "ParentID": 26684 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 750.0, "ContributionID": 705708, "EditedText": "Will the minister give an early announcement about upgrading the A80 route to a motorway rather than constructing a new motorway through the Kelvin valley?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give an early announcement about upgrading the A80 route to a motorway rather than constructing a new motorway through the Kelvin valley?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C705716", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Financial Issues", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26688, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 756.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 756.0, "ID": 26688, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 768.0, "ContributionID": 705716, "EditedText": "I am coming to it. I am sure that we will all welcome the fact that, before the recess, Mr McConnell will appear before committees. I understand the reason for the tax decision, and in the current context I accept and support it. Some key questions arise from the report and need to be answered. Can the minister confirm whether any aspects of the report were announced before his statement to the Parliament? In his statement, he commented that the comprehensive spending review had delivered a record high for public spending in Scotland. Does he agree, however, that, in the first three years of the Labour Administration, the Scottish budget has been cut by £1.1 billion compared to the last three years of the Conservative Administration? Will he recognise that, in the coming three years, the Barnett squeeze means that, in the relative areas of the budget, the increase will be two and a half times faster in England than in Scotland? That is according to Brian Ashcroft, not me. Does he therefore recognise the existence of the Barnett squeeze, and what does he intend to do about it?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am coming to it. I am sure that we will all welcome the fact that, before the recess, Mr McConnell will appear before committees. I understand the reason for the tax decision, and in the current context I accept and support it.

Some key questions arise from the report and need to be answered. Can the minister confirm whether any aspects of the report were announced before his statement to the Parliament? In his statement, he commented that the comprehensive spending review had delivered a record high for public spending in Scotland. Does he agree, however, that, in the first three years of the Labour Administration, the Scottish budget has been cut by £1.1 billion compared to the last three years of the Conservative Administration? Will he recognise that, in the coming three years, the Barnett squeeze means that, in the relative areas of the budget, the increase will be two and a half times faster in England than in Scotland? That is according to Brian Ashcroft, not me. Does he therefore

recognise the existence of the Barnett squeeze, and what does he intend to do about it?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C705717", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Financial Issues", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26688, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 756.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 756.0, "ID": 26688, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Keith Raffan (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 770.0, "ContributionID": 705717, "EditedText": "He should ask questions relating to the statement.", "EditedTextHTML": "

He should ask questions relating to the statement.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C705718", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Financial Issues", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26688, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 756.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 756.0, "ID": 26688, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 772.0, "ContributionID": 705718, "EditedText": "It is entirely relevant to the statement, if Keith would stop interrupting. The minister's point of clarification on the tax structure being used to pay for the Holyrood project and the changes to it is welcome. Will he now explain how he intends to find the extra £80 million of spending announced in the partnership agreement?", "EditedTextHTML": "It is entirely relevant to the statement, if Keith would stop interrupting.

The minister's point of clarification on the tax structure being used to pay for the Holyrood project and the changes to it is welcome. Will he now explain how he intends to find the extra £80 million of spending announced in the partnership agreement?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C705719", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Financial Issues", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26688, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 756.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 756.0, "ID": 26688, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 774.0, "ContributionID": 705719, "EditedText": "I welcome Andrew Wilson's comments about the work of the Minister for Finance, and I look forward to a constructive and positive relationship with him. I hope that the first half, rather than the second half, of his questions—in the form of a statement—sets the tone for the way things might continue. It is important that we try as parties to work together in this Parliament to secure the best financial accountability. I look forward to that process unfolding. On Mr Wilson's specific questions, no elements of my statement on the specific details of the FIAG report or any other elements of my statement were pre-announced. I cleared the press release only about half an hour ago—if that is a helpful clarification. The only element of my statement to which I referred in advance of today was not in the FIAG report: my proposal to extend consultation outwith this Parliament to the public of Scotland. I hope that Mr Wilson will appreciate the Scottish public being aware of that. I hope that Mr Wilson will, in due course, accept that the Government's budgets in the past two years—and indeed for this year—are larger than those estimated by the previous Conservative Government, and that the budget totals in Scotland in three years' time will indeed be at a record high. I await his welcoming of that with interest and anticipation. On the subject of the Barnett formula, I welcome the decision of the Finance Committee this week to look at the formula and decisions associated with it. Brian Ashcroft's report today states again that public expenditure in Scotland will be moving towards a record high level in three years' time—it is important to note that. When we are discussing financial matters, the Parliament should accept two principles from the outset: that we will not compare everything that we do to what is happening south of the border but have our own debates and make our own decisions in a mature and responsible way; and that we will accept that, across the United Kingdom, budgets are, and should be, determined on the basis of need and we support the continuation of that principle. On the fourth point that Mr Wilson raised, intend to make a statement in the autumn on the financial expenditures announced in the partnership agreement and on other supplementary estimates that will have to be dealt with at that time. I intend to deal with them as a complete package because I want our budgeting to be as sensible and as comprehensive across departments as possible.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome Andrew Wilson's comments about the work of the Minister for Finance, and I look forward to a constructive and positive relationship with him. I hope that the first half, rather than the second half, of his questions—in the form of a statement—sets the tone for the way things might continue. It is important that we try as parties to work together in this Parliament to secure the best financial accountability. I look forward to that process unfolding.

On Mr Wilson's specific questions, no elements of my statement on the specific details of the FIAG report or any other elements of my statement were pre-announced. I cleared the press release only about half an hour ago—if that is a helpful clarification. The only element of my statement to which I referred in advance of today was not in the FIAG report: my proposal to extend consultation outwith this Parliament to the public of Scotland. I hope that Mr Wilson will appreciate the Scottish public being aware of that.

I hope that Mr Wilson will, in due course, accept that the Government's budgets in the past two years—and indeed for this year—are larger than those estimated by the previous Conservative Government, and that the budget totals in Scotland in three years' time will indeed be at a record high. I await his welcoming of that with interest and anticipation.

On the subject of the Barnett formula, I welcome the decision of the Finance Committee this week to look at the formula and decisions associated with it. Brian Ashcroft's report today states again that public expenditure in Scotland will be moving towards a record high level in three years' time—it is important to note that. When we are discussing financial matters, the Parliament should accept two principles from the outset: that we will not compare everything that we do to what is happening south of the border but have our own debates and make our own decisions in a mature and responsible way; and that we will accept that, across the United Kingdom, budgets are, and should be, determined on the basis of need and we support the continuation of that principle.

On the fourth point that Mr Wilson raised, intend to make a statement in the autumn on the financial expenditures announced in the partnership agreement and on other supplementary estimates that will have to be dealt with at that time. I intend to deal with them as a complete package because I want our budgeting to be as sensible and as comprehensive across departments as possible.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C705720", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Financial Issues", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26688, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 756.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 756.0, "ID": 26688, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr David Davidson (North-East Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 776.0, "ContributionID": 705720, "EditedText": "Excuse me, my throat is a bit sore—it is not for the want of counting the money that is going through this system. I welcome Mr McConnell's statement today, particularly what he said about the relationship with the committees, which is very important. Following my question to the Finance Committee on Monday morning about the early establishment of protocols on the relationship and information flows between him and the committee, may I assume that this will be expedited at an early date? I agree with the philosophy of minimum waste and maximum output. When does the minister intend to apply that to the rest of government spending, both locally and through government agencies? I congratulate FIAG on its work, which is a superb start to the working of the Parliament. I am, however, a little concerned about Mr McConnell's phrase \"We intend to broadly accept the report\".Perhaps he will detail the parts he does not accept? Is the part about parliamentary controls one of them? I welcome the comments on public consultations, but ask for a guarantee that the bill will go back to committee before it comes to this chamber. I notice that Mr McConnell made a comment about ordinary Scots. Is he saving some tax-raising powers for extraordinary Scots? He claims to be saving £20 million. Is the use of that money on the Holyrood project the best possible use of it? He could save £10 million on maintenance by scrapping the scheme, instead of leaving it hanging over Scottish taxpayers. It is refreshing to hear that he accepts the cost to business of taxation and extra bureaucracy. Will that be the first of a series of steps by which he will reduce the burden on business in Scotland that is imposed by government bureaucracy?", "EditedTextHTML": "Excuse me, my throat is a bit sore—it is not for the want of counting the money that is going through this system. I welcome Mr McConnell's statement today, particularly what he said about the relationship with the committees, which is very important. Following my question to the Finance Committee on Monday morning about the early establishment of protocols on the relationship and information flows between him and the committee, may I assume that this will be expedited at an early date?

I agree with the philosophy of minimum waste and maximum output. When does the minister intend to apply that to the rest of government spending, both locally and through government agencies? I congratulate FIAG on its work, which is a superb start to the working of the Parliament. I am, however, a little concerned about Mr McConnell's phrase

\"We intend to broadly accept the report\".

Perhaps he will detail the parts he does not accept? Is the part about parliamentary controls one of them?

I welcome the comments on public consultations, but ask for a guarantee that the bill will go back to committee before it comes to this chamber. I notice that Mr McConnell made a comment about ordinary Scots. Is he saving some tax-raising powers for extraordinary Scots? He claims to be saving £20 million. Is the use of that money on the Holyrood project the best possible use of it? He could save £10 million on maintenance by scrapping the scheme, instead of leaving it hanging over Scottish taxpayers. It is refreshing to hear that he accepts the cost to business of taxation and extra bureaucracy. Will that be the first of a series of steps by which he will reduce the burden on business in Scotland that is imposed by government bureaucracy?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C705722", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Financial Issues", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26688, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 756.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 756.0, "ID": 26688, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 780.0, "ContributionID": 705722, "EditedText": "I have been indulgent in the two opening interventions. I now ask members please to keep their questions tight. There are about eight minutes remaining.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have been indulgent in the two opening interventions. I now ask members please to keep their questions tight. There are about eight minutes remaining.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C705724", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Financial Issues", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26688, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 756.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 756.0, "ID": 26688, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 784.0, "ContributionID": 705724, "EditedText": "There are many examples, both in central Government agencies and in local government, of best value initiatives. They are producing not only better use of resources, but better performance in public services. I would like to think that this Administration—and I take this on board as a responsibility during the summer and autumn—will examine the activities of central Government and its various agencies, in particular from a best value perspective. The UK Government produced a white paper in March, \"Modernising Government\", which does not cover the devolved Administrations in Scotland and Wales. One of the issues that I intend to address in the first half of the recess, during what I hope will be a busy July for me, is that white paper. I hope that we can start afresh in Scotland, and I will consult with colleagues and other agencies on taking that agenda forward.", "EditedTextHTML": "There are many examples, both in central Government agencies and in local government, of best value initiatives. They are producing not only better use of resources, but better performance in public services. I would like to think that this Administration—and I take this on board as a responsibility during the summer and autumn—will examine the activities of central Government and its various agencies, in particular from a best value perspective.

The UK Government produced a white paper in March, \"Modernising Government\", which does not cover the devolved Administrations in Scotland and Wales. One of the issues that I intend to address in the first half of the recess, during what I hope will be a busy July for me, is that white paper. I hope that we can start afresh in Scotland, and I will consult with colleagues and other agencies on taking that agenda forward.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C705728", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Financial Issues", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26688, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 756.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 756.0, "ID": 26688, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Davidson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 792.0, "ContributionID": 705728, "EditedText": "On a point of order, Mr Deputy Presiding Officer. I asked the minister to clarify whether, when he used the phrase \"broadly accept the report\", he meant that there were other parts of the report that were not accepted.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order, Mr Deputy Presiding Officer. I asked the minister to clarify whether, when he used the phrase \"broadly accept the report\", he meant that there were other parts of the report that were not accepted.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C705730", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Financial Issues", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26688, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 756.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 756.0, "ID": 26688, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 796.0, "ContributionID": 705730, "EditedText": "I welcome the minister's statement and his commitment to openness and a constructive dialogue with Parliament and its committees. I have two points. First, how lengthy and complex does he expect the proposed accountability, budgeting and audit bill to be, and is he satisfied that there will be sufficient time for pre-legislative scrutiny, bearing in mind that we are working to a very tight timetable? Secondly, I also welcome the FIAG report. In setting out the budget process, it makes clear that consideration of strategic priorities for the financial year 2001-02 cannot begin until the current financial year, 1999-2000, ends next April. That obviously means that consideration of spending for the next year, 2000-01, will be severely curtailed, as the Parliament has only just come into existence. We have already lost two months. Will Mr McConnell comment on that and say when he expects to be able to publish a preliminary draft budget for 2000-01?", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the minister's statement and his commitment to openness and a constructive dialogue with Parliament and its committees.

I have two points. First, how lengthy and complex does he expect the proposed accountability, budgeting and audit bill to be, and is he satisfied that there will be sufficient time for pre-legislative scrutiny, bearing in mind that we are working to a very tight timetable?

Secondly, I also welcome the FIAG report. In setting out the budget process, it makes clear that consideration of strategic priorities for the financial year 2001-02 cannot begin until the current financial year, 1999-2000, ends next April. That obviously means that consideration of spending for the next year, 2000-01, will be severely curtailed, as the Parliament has only just come into existence. We have already lost two months. Will Mr McConnell comment on that and say when he expects to be able to publish a preliminary draft budget for 2000-01?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C705741", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "The Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26689, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 808.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 808.0, "ID": 26689, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 820.0, "ContributionID": 705741, "EditedText": "With the greatest respect, I shall not give a ringing endorsement to 20 years of near-economic failure under the Conservative party. Suffice it to say, the politics of the past are less important than the prospects for the future. In my comments on Scottish Widows, Lloyds TSB and other companies, I was illustrating that when the nation is successful, we should pride ourselves on that success, and that—as Mr Swinney suggested—we should work with all concerned to ensure further success. Scotland has many strengths on which to build a prominent position.", "EditedTextHTML": "With the greatest respect, I shall not give a ringing endorsement to 20 years of near-economic failure under the Conservative party. Suffice it to say, the politics of the past are less important than the prospects for the future.

In my comments on Scottish Widows, Lloyds TSB and other companies, I was illustrating that when the nation is successful, we should pride ourselves on that success, and that—as Mr Swinney suggested—we should work with all concerned to ensure further success. Scotland has many strengths on which to build a prominent position.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C705743", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "The Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26689, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 808.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 808.0, "ID": 26689, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 824.0, "ContributionID": 705743, "EditedText": "I am grateful to Fiona Hyslop for making that point. The headquarters and brand name are crucial, but jobs are critical as an integral feature of the Scottish economy. In the discussions that the First Minister and I had with the chief executives and chairmen of the two companies, that point was put to them and we were reassured that the matter that she mentioned was being confirmed. The Parliament, the Executive and political parties will be ever watchful of what is happening in the Scottish economy, whether internally or in link-ups such as that. We want to build on the strength represented by our prominent position in key sectors such as oil and gas, electronics, whisky, tourism and financial services. There are opportunities for further growth and success in new industries and the emerging technologies. Scotland has been successful in attracting inward investment. Since 1 April, J P Morgan, Morgan Stanley Dean Witter, BPS Teleperformance, One 2 One, Quintiles Scotland Ltd, Absolute Quality, NFU Mutual Direct and Level 1 Communications have announced plans to create new jobs in Scotland totalling more than 2,500. Unemployment in Scotland is falling and is low by historical and international standards. Employment has risen by 7,000 over the past quarter. Unemployment is 5.5 per cent—its lowest since 1977.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful to Fiona Hyslop for making that point. The headquarters and brand name are crucial, but jobs are critical as an integral feature of the Scottish economy. In the discussions that the First Minister and I had with the chief executives and chairmen of the two companies, that point was put to them and we were reassured that the matter that she mentioned was being confirmed. The Parliament, the Executive and political parties will be ever watchful of what is happening in the Scottish economy, whether internally or in link-ups such as that.

We want to build on the strength represented by our prominent position in key sectors such as oil and gas, electronics, whisky, tourism and financial services. There are opportunities for further growth and success in new industries and the emerging technologies. Scotland has been successful in attracting inward investment. Since 1 April, J P Morgan, Morgan Stanley Dean Witter, BPS Teleperformance, One 2 One, Quintiles Scotland Ltd, Absolute Quality, NFU Mutual Direct and Level 1 Communications have announced plans to create new jobs in Scotland totalling more than 2,500.

Unemployment in Scotland is falling and is low by historical and international standards. Employment has risen by 7,000 over the past quarter. Unemployment is 5.5 per cent—its lowest since 1977.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C705745", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "The Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26689, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 808.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 808.0, "ID": 26689, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 828.0, "ContributionID": 705745, "EditedText": "I was tempted to decline the intervention and perhaps I should have done so. I take Tricia Marwick's point—in certain parts of Scotland there is still high unemployment that needs to be tackled, and that will be done. On the local issue that she mentioned, Methil power station has served Scottish Power well over many years. Economic circumstances have changed and raw material for the plant is in short supply, but the 72 employees are being offered the possibility of enhanced voluntary redundancy or transferral to other Scottish Power plants. understand that there is a close working relationship between Scottish Power and the work force. I hope that the resulting discussions will satisfy all concerned. In the longer term, all of us— including the local list and constituency members—will need to work hard to ensure that, while unemployment is low throughout the country, it is lower still. The dignity of work should not elude our constituents. The new deal continues to provide support for the long-term unemployed and for young Scots to improve their skills and experience and help them find work. Unemployment in the new deal groups has fallen over the past two years. Youth unemployment has been cut by 54 per cent since May 1997 and long-term unemployment has fallen by 49 per cent. Scottish manufacturers and exporters have performed resiliently in the face of tough global trading conditions. Output in the manufacturing sector in Scotland increased by 2.1 per cent in 1998, compared with an increase of 0.3 per cent in the UK as a whole. The level of Scottish manufactured exports increased by 6.7 per cent in real terms in 1998, despite difficult global and European conditions. We know that much remains to be done in putting Scotland to work and keeping Scots in work. There have been job losses and closures. The global downturn has slowed industrial activity in all the major European countries and we cannot expect to be immune from that. However, there have also been more hopeful signs, most recently in the April Confederation of British Industry survey for Scotland, which said that manufacturing output and orders are expected to be back on a growth path over the next quarter. I am also encouraged by the Fraser of Allander Institute's quarterly economic commentary, released this morning, which suggests that there will be an earlier upturn—driven by the electronics sector—in manufacturing output in Scotland than in the UK. Growth across the economy as a whole will be lower this year than last, but global turbulence has eased and interest rates have fallen. The latest independent forecasts suggest that growth will accelerate from 2000, in line with the UK. However, we now need to look forward. In terms of manufacturing strategy, there is no point in simply standing back and hoping for better times. We know that manufacturing industry will continue to face aggressive global competition, and I am determined that we should look with renewed vigour at how we support our manufacturers and at the opportunities for us to extend that support. Therefore, in consultation with manufacturing industry and the Scottish Trades Union Congress, I want to develop a strategy for the manufacturing sector in Scotland. Currently, about 300,000 people are employed in manufacturing and about 1.7 or 1.8 million in services; both sectors are crucial to the future of the Scottish economy. The group that is considering the manufacturing strategy will build on the work of the pathfinder group, take into account the Department of Trade and Industry's activity and complement our support for the service sector. I plan to make real progress on that over the summer. We will progress the pioneering work of the pathfinder group to ensure that its voice and the ideas of businesses are heard. Through the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee, every party in the Parliament will also be heard.", "EditedTextHTML": "I was tempted to decline the intervention and perhaps I should have done so.

I take Tricia Marwick's point—in certain parts of Scotland there is still high unemployment that needs to be tackled, and that will be done. On the local issue that she mentioned, Methil power station has served Scottish Power well over many years. Economic circumstances have changed and raw material for the plant is in short supply, but the 72 employees are being offered the possibility of enhanced voluntary redundancy or transferral to other Scottish Power plants. understand that there is a close working relationship between Scottish Power and the work force. I hope that the resulting discussions will satisfy all concerned. In the longer term, all of us— including the local list and constituency members—will need to work hard to ensure that, while unemployment is low throughout the country, it is lower still. The dignity of work should not elude our constituents.

The new deal continues to provide support for the long-term unemployed and for young Scots to improve their skills and experience and help them find work. Unemployment in the new deal groups has fallen over the past two years. Youth unemployment has been cut by 54 per cent since May 1997 and long-term unemployment has fallen by 49 per cent. Scottish manufacturers and exporters have performed resiliently in the face of tough global trading conditions. Output in the manufacturing sector in Scotland increased by 2.1 per cent in 1998, compared with an increase of 0.3 per cent in the UK as a whole. The level of Scottish manufactured exports increased by 6.7 per cent in real terms in 1998, despite difficult global and European conditions.

We know that much remains to be done in putting Scotland to work and keeping Scots in work. There have been job losses and closures. The global downturn has slowed industrial activity in all the major European countries and we cannot expect to be immune from that. However, there have also been more hopeful signs, most recently in the April Confederation of British Industry survey for Scotland, which said that manufacturing output and orders are expected to be back on a growth path over the next quarter.

I am also encouraged by the Fraser of Allander Institute's quarterly economic commentary, released this morning, which suggests that there will be an earlier upturn—driven by the electronics sector—in manufacturing output in Scotland than in the UK.

Growth across the economy as a whole will be lower this year than last, but global turbulence has eased and interest rates have fallen. The latest independent forecasts suggest that growth will accelerate from 2000, in line with the UK.

However, we now need to look forward. In terms of manufacturing strategy, there is no point in simply standing back and hoping for better times. We know that manufacturing industry will continue to face aggressive global competition, and I am determined that we should look with renewed vigour at how we support our manufacturers and at the opportunities for us to extend that support. Therefore, in consultation with manufacturing industry and the Scottish Trades Union Congress, I want to develop a strategy for the manufacturing

sector in Scotland. Currently, about 300,000 people are employed in manufacturing and about

1.7 or 1.8 million in services; both sectors are crucial to the future of the Scottish economy. The group that is considering the manufacturing strategy will build on the work of the pathfinder group, take into account the Department of Trade and Industry's activity and complement our support for the service sector. I plan to make real progress on that over the summer. We will progress the pioneering work of the pathfinder group to ensure that its voice and the ideas of businesses are heard. Through the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee, every party in the Parliament will also be heard.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C705747", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "The Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26689, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 808.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 808.0, "ID": 26689, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 832.0, "ContributionID": 705747, "EditedText": "That was a constructive intervention about a matter that is of considerable importance to industry. I know that representations are being made to the Chancellor of the Exchequer by a wide variety of bodies, and I reassure the honourable gentleman—I have fallen back into Westminster habits for the second time today—that those concerns will be voiced to the people who need to listen. Education and lifelong learning are crucial and, since 1997, we have put them at the heart of enterprise policy. Skills policies bridge education and employment. We are improving jobs skills and training skills, both of which are central to growing jobs, boosting competitiveness and building social inclusion. Our plans for lifelong learning will allow working people to balance the responsibilities of family life and employment with the need constantly to upgrade skills. The mere fact that we have linked enterprise and lifelong learning is a powerful message to all concerned that we take the matter very seriously. The link has not happened at Westminster and very few countries in Europe have linked the two subjects. Again, I like to think that Scotland is leading on the issue. There is much to be said about job skills and training skills, but suffice it to say today that we must focus on ensuring that people receive a basic grounding before they enter the labour market and that the necessary frameworks for education and qualifications are in place. We must also play a role in addressing market failures, by providing support or a co-ordinating role in seeking solutions. We have a plethora of publicly financed training programmes, which are often very successful. One area in which we have not made as much progress is employer-based training; that is highlighted by what is happening in Japan, Germany and the States. We need to have a boost for such training in the workplace and we hope that the infrastructure that we have established will help. The Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee will want to consider how we can encourage the work force to demand skills training and employers to respond positively. Most of these measures are set out in \"Skills for Scotland\". The Scottish university for industry and individual learning accounts will help, because they will have a major impact on learning and skills development. The Scottish university for industry will help individuals and businesses to identify the learning that they want and enable them to access it, where and when they need it. The individual learning account is about self-ownership of skills in education. From the earliest possible age after leaving school, why should not people want to acquire, develop, own and renew skills and knowledge? As people's careers develop and their adaptability becomes paramount, that will become a crucial issue. Individual learning accounts are the first step in making that process a reality. The knowledge economy is also crucial. A knowledge-driven economy is one in which the generation and exploitation of knowledge rather than physical assets plays the predominant part in the creation of wealth. The concept is not simply about pushing back the frontiers of knowledge; it is about the more effective use of all types of knowledge in all types of economic activity—not just in those that are sometimes classified as high- tech or knowledge-intensive. A wide programme of work is under way in Scotland and the rest of the UK following the publication of the white paper, \"Our Competitive Future: Building the Knowledge-Driven Economy\". I want to acknowledge and take forward the tremendous work of Gus Macdonald and his task force. We should establish a group involving all sectors of business, to ensure that we advance the knowledge economy as quickly as possible. There are various initiatives in that area, but I do not have enough time to outline them today. The knowledge economy is about knowledge, understanding, competencies and skills. We have to acknowledge that, in a fiercely competitive world, people can provide factories, finance and a one-door approach, but it is the development of human capital—the knowledge economy—that will make the difference. I hope that the Parliament will sign up for that idea. I am sure that the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee will want to take it further. I am conscious of the time, as are you, MrReid—I see you nodding constructively in my direction. There is a raft of policies that we will discuss further with the committee on encouraging the growth of new businesses, which want a stable environment. Tourism is crucial to our objectives. I can announce today that I have asked the Scottish Tourist Board to prepare a new strategy to replace the original strategy that was published in 1994. Tourism will be an important issue to which everyone can contribute. It is worth around £2.5 billion, even though it has had two difficult years, and we have not been able to extend the season. We are losing visitors from within the UK and there has been a diminution of the number from abroad, but tourism has a great future. We need a strategy that combines the customer-is-right approach to customer care with aggressive and positive marketing abroad. Rural areas will also play a key part in our economic strategy. This Parliament is a reflection of the new politics in Scotland. We have already had a constructive debate on Mr Mundell's motion on Dumfries and Galloway. We are working in the Borders and in the Highlands. I say to all MSPs— both list and constituency—that we want to ensure that this Parliament and its economic approach are for the whole of Scotland, not just for the central belt. In conclusion—thank you for your tolerance, Mr Reid—the question is also about social inclusion. We still live in an era in which social inclusion is fundamentally about the self-worth of having a job; it is about being able to structure one's life, and have an independent life, an income and a quality of social life. If we accept that social inclusion underpins everything that we do, we will be well on the way to grasping a collective ideal on which we have prided ourselves in Scotland for more than a century. We now have a great opportunity to achieve that as well as to implement policies for a prosperous economic future. I move,That the Parliament notes that unemployment in Scotland is falling and is low by historical and international standards, and that employment is increasing, and looks forward to the Executive building on Scotland's economic success by investing in jobs and skills, promoting a stable and competitive environment for enterprise and encouraging the growth of new businesses.", "EditedTextHTML": "That was a constructive intervention about a matter that is of considerable importance to industry. I know that representations are being made to the Chancellor of the Exchequer by a wide variety of bodies, and I reassure the honourable gentleman—I have fallen back into Westminster habits for the second time today—that those concerns will be voiced to the people who need to listen.

Education and lifelong learning are crucial and, since 1997, we have put them at the heart of enterprise policy. Skills policies bridge education and employment. We are improving jobs skills and training skills, both of which are central to growing jobs, boosting competitiveness and building social inclusion. Our plans for lifelong learning will allow working people to balance the responsibilities of family life and employment with the need constantly to upgrade skills. The mere fact that we have linked enterprise and lifelong learning is a powerful message to all concerned that we take the matter very seriously. The link has not happened at Westminster and very few countries in Europe have linked the two subjects. Again, I like to think that Scotland is leading on the issue.

There is much to be said about job skills and training skills, but suffice it to say today that we must focus on ensuring that people receive a basic grounding before they enter the labour market and that the necessary frameworks for education and qualifications are in place. We must also play a role in addressing market failures, by providing support or a co-ordinating role in seeking solutions.

We have a plethora of publicly financed training programmes, which are often very successful. One area in which we have not made as much progress is employer-based training; that is highlighted by what is happening in Japan, Germany and the States. We need to have a boost for such training in the workplace and we hope that the infrastructure that we have established will help. The Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee will want to consider how we can encourage the work force to demand skills training and employers to respond positively.

Most of these measures are set out in \"Skills for Scotland\". The Scottish university for industry and individual learning accounts will help, because they will have a major impact on learning and skills development. The Scottish university for industry will help individuals and businesses to identify the learning that they want and enable them to access it, where and when they need it. The individual learning account is about self-ownership of skills in education. From the earliest possible age after leaving school, why should not people want to acquire, develop, own and renew skills and knowledge? As people's careers develop and their adaptability becomes paramount, that will become a crucial issue. Individual learning accounts are the first step in making that process a reality.

The knowledge economy is also crucial. A knowledge-driven economy is one in which the generation and exploitation of knowledge rather than physical assets plays the predominant part in the creation of wealth. The concept is not simply about pushing back the frontiers of knowledge; it is about the more effective use of all types of knowledge in all types of economic activity—not just in those that are sometimes classified as high- tech or knowledge-intensive.

A wide programme of work is under way in Scotland and the rest of the UK following the publication of the white paper, \"Our Competitive Future: Building the Knowledge-Driven Economy\". I want to acknowledge and take forward the tremendous work of Gus Macdonald and his task force. We should establish a group involving all sectors of business, to ensure that we advance the knowledge economy as quickly as possible. There are various initiatives in that area, but I do not have enough time to outline them today.

The knowledge economy is about knowledge, understanding, competencies and skills. We have to acknowledge that, in a fiercely competitive world, people can provide factories, finance and a one-door approach, but it is the development of human capital—the knowledge economy—that will make the difference. I hope that the Parliament will sign up for that idea. I am sure that the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee will want to take it further.

I am conscious of the time, as are you, Mr

Reid—I see you nodding constructively in my direction.

There is a raft of policies that we will discuss further with the committee on encouraging the growth of new businesses, which want a stable environment.

Tourism is crucial to our objectives. I can announce today that I have asked the Scottish Tourist Board to prepare a new strategy to replace the original strategy that was published in 1994. Tourism will be an important issue to which everyone can contribute. It is worth around £2.5 billion, even though it has had two difficult years, and we have not been able to extend the season. We are losing visitors from within the UK and there has been a diminution of the number from abroad, but tourism has a great future. We need a strategy that combines the customer-is-right approach to customer care with aggressive and positive marketing abroad.

Rural areas will also play a key part in our economic strategy. This Parliament is a reflection of the new politics in Scotland. We have already had a constructive debate on Mr Mundell's motion on Dumfries and Galloway. We are working in the Borders and in the Highlands. I say to all MSPs— both list and constituency—that we want to ensure that this Parliament and its economic approach are for the whole of Scotland, not just for the central belt.

In conclusion—thank you for your tolerance, Mr Reid—the question is also about social inclusion. We still live in an era in which social inclusion is fundamentally about the self-worth of having a job; it is about being able to structure one's life, and have an independent life, an income and a quality of social life. If we accept that social inclusion underpins everything that we do, we will be well on the way to grasping a collective ideal on which we have prided ourselves in Scotland for more than a century. We now have a great opportunity to achieve that as well as to implement policies for a prosperous economic future.

I move,

That the Parliament notes that unemployment in Scotland is falling and is low by historical and international standards, and that employment is increasing, and looks forward to the Executive building on Scotland's economic success by investing in jobs and skills, promoting a stable and competitive environment for enterprise and encouraging the growth of new businesses.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C705748", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "The Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26689, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 808.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 808.0, "ID": 26689, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 834.0, "ContributionID": 705748, "EditedText": "I call Mr John Swinney to speak on and move amendment S1M68.1.", "EditedTextHTML": "I call Mr John Swinney to speak on and move amendment S1M

68.1.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C705764", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "The Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26689, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 808.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 808.0, "ID": 26689, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 868.0, "ContributionID": 705764, "EditedText": "Does Mr Davidson recall that it took a fair number of years for the Conservative Government to achieve a uniform business rate in Scotland? Is he aware that other members in the chamber would undoubtedly give councils the right to impose additional taxes, which would destroy that Government's achievement of the removal of the burden to which he referred?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does Mr Davidson recall that it took a fair number of years for the Conservative Government to achieve a uniform business rate in Scotland? Is he aware that other members in the chamber would undoubtedly give councils the right to impose additional taxes, which would destroy that Government's achievement of the removal of the burden to which he referred?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1986E53P206C705755", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "The Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26689, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 808.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 808.0, "ID": 26689, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeil, Duncan", "ID": 1986, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Greenock and Inverclyde" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan McNeil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Duncan McNeil (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 850.0, "ContributionID": 705755, "EditedText": "As someone who was born and brought up in a shipbuilding community and saw the shipbuilding industry destroyed by representatives of the Conservative party—just as it destroyed the steel industry—I find that hard to take. Enough is enough. I do not want any lectures from David Davidson on jobs.", "EditedTextHTML": "As someone who was born and brought up in a shipbuilding community and saw the shipbuilding industry destroyed by representatives of the Conservative party—just as it destroyed the steel industry—I find that hard to take. Enough is enough. I do not want any lectures from David Davidson on jobs.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C705756", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "The Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26689, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 808.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 808.0, "ID": 26689, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Davidson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 852.0, "ContributionID": 705756, "EditedText": "Interestingly, since problems have arisen because of the lack of control from the Westminster Labour Government, the oil industry has really started to suffer locally. A year ago, I formally asked the industry minister Lord Macdonald to come and look at the north-east for himself. I asked him to set up a task force to look at the knock-on effects across the economy in addition to the oil task force that was already in place. The response that I got left me cold. We have to move on. Business confidence is low, and we must give business the confidence that it needs to invest, as the economy of Scotland cannot grow without that investment. The minister talked of promoting a competitive environment for enterprise and for the growth of new business, but there was no mention of support measures for indigenous business. He talked very briefly about small business—90 per cent of our businesses are very small—but what does he have to offer them in practical terms? Does he really understand their needs? Our rural economy is on its knees. Despite that, at the Royal Highland Show at Ingliston, a proud industry with the highest production standards in Europe is today flying the flag for Scotland. The motion gives no support to that industry, which shares the bureaucratic burden imposed on business. Farmers should be ploughing the soil, not ploughing through paperwork, but what is the minister offering our rural areas for the future? There is talk today of a tourism strategy, which I welcome. I hope that part of that strategy will be to look closely and in detail at the structure of tourism support systems, including the involvement of local authorities. This evening I will be attending a Scottish Young Farmers Club function. What message do I take to the young farmers from the minister's statement to give them hope for their future? On the subject of the future and our young people, what is being proposed to ensure that our children leave school with the basic skills of reading and writing? Day after day, we hear that the low skills level with which pupils leave our schools amazes people in industry and business. I hope that the minister, and his colleague the Minister for Children and Education, will give us an assurance that that problem will soon be tackled seriously. If children do not have the basic skills, they cannot be employed and they cannot enter training courses. We have not heard many statistics about that from the ministerial team. We must quantify our skills needs and resource them accordingly and I welcome a review of workplace training. Before the election, all the parties had fine words, but we now need an action plan. Today, we have had the minister's vision, but we need a practical strategy for developing and supporting the skills base of our industry. We must also examine locally available training that is appropriate to the needs of our young people, which is not necessarily what we have at present. Does the minister agree that the new deal is almost past its sell-by date? I share Mr Swinney's views on that point. The new deal needs a drastic review, as it has failed the young people of Scotland. We have a common interest in holding an investigation into that in the near future; I hope that such an investigation will come through the Parliament's committees shortly. Our high streets are full of empty shop premises, yet we hear rumours that local authorities— Mr Keith Raffan (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)rose—", "EditedTextHTML": "Interestingly, since problems have arisen because of the lack of control from the Westminster Labour Government, the oil industry has really started to suffer locally. A year ago, I formally asked the industry minister Lord Macdonald to come and look at the north-east for himself. I asked him to set up a task force to look at the knock-on effects across the economy in addition to the oil task force that was already in place. The response that I got left me cold. We have to move on.

Business confidence is low, and we must give business the confidence that it needs to invest, as the economy of Scotland cannot grow without that investment. The minister talked of promoting a competitive environment for enterprise and for the growth of new business, but there was no mention of support measures for indigenous business. He talked very briefly about small business—90 per cent of our businesses are very small—but what does he have to offer them in practical terms? Does he really understand their needs?

Our rural economy is on its knees. Despite that, at the Royal Highland Show at Ingliston, a proud industry with the highest production standards in Europe is today flying the flag for Scotland. The motion gives no support to that industry, which shares the bureaucratic burden imposed on business. Farmers should be ploughing the soil, not ploughing through paperwork, but what is the minister offering our rural areas for the future?

There is talk today of a tourism strategy, which I welcome. I hope that part of that strategy will be to look closely and in detail at the structure of tourism support systems, including the involvement of local authorities.

This evening I will be attending a Scottish Young Farmers Club function. What message do I take to the young farmers from the minister's statement to give them hope for their future?

On the subject of the future and our young people, what is being proposed to ensure that our children leave school with the basic skills of reading and writing? Day after day, we hear that the low skills level with which pupils leave our schools amazes people in industry and business. I hope that the minister, and his colleague the Minister for Children and Education, will give us an assurance that that problem will soon be tackled seriously. If children do not have the basic skills, they cannot be employed and they cannot enter training courses. We have not heard many statistics about that from the ministerial team. We must quantify our skills needs and resource them accordingly and I welcome a review of workplace training. Before the election, all the parties had fine words, but we now need an action plan. Today, we have had the minister's vision, but we need a practical strategy for developing and supporting the skills base of our industry.

We must also examine locally available training that is appropriate to the needs of our young people, which is not necessarily what we have at present. Does the minister agree that the new deal is almost past its sell-by date? I share Mr Swinney's views on that point. The new deal needs a drastic review, as it has failed the young people of Scotland. We have a common interest in holding an investigation into that in the near future; I hope that such an investigation will come through the Parliament's committees shortly. Our high streets are full of empty shop premises, yet we hear rumours that local authorities—

Mr Keith Raffan (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)

rose—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C705767", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "The Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26689, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 808.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 808.0, "ID": 26689, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 874.0, "ContributionID": 705767, "EditedText": "I would say to members that the opening statements were perhaps full of detail, but a little longer than desirable. I intend to restrict remaining speeches to three minutes each.", "EditedTextHTML": "I would say to members that the opening statements were perhaps full of detail, but a little longer than desirable. I intend to restrict remaining speeches to three minutes each.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1985E207P501C705770", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "The Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26689, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 808.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 808.0, "ID": 26689, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hamilton, Mr Duncan", "ID": 1985, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Hamilton: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 881.0, "ContributionID": 705770, "EditedText": "Nicely put. This Parliament has a role in removing the barriers to growth, which will happen. Let me finish—", "EditedTextHTML": "Nicely put. This Parliament has a role in removing the barriers to growth, which will happen. Let me finish—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C705773", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "The Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26689, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 808.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 808.0, "ID": 26689, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 887.0, "ContributionID": 705773, "EditedText": "End now please.", "EditedTextHTML": "End now please.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C705779", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "The Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26689, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 808.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 808.0, "ID": 26689, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 900.0, "ContributionID": 705779, "EditedText": "Our position on the beef-on-the-bone ban is clear. We are committed to having it lifted. There was no time scale on that in our manifesto. I welcome the fact that the minister reinforced the importance we attach to the extra spending on public services. We must also realise that we have to generate the wealth, as that is what allows us to deliver good public services. As he rightly said, there are tremendous opportunities for the Scottish Parliament to exploit Scotland's industrial and entrepreneurial strengths, but I suggest that we are rather narrowly focused at the moment. We need to widen the range of industries in Scotland. The appointment of a Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning is a symbol of joined-up government. It is essential that this new ministry brings business and higher education closer together. It is vital that we equip our work force, which will be our strength in the future, with the appropriate skills for business to exploit the knowledge economy. We must ensure that Scotland is a leading player in that economy. welcome the partnership agreement's proposals for the new business growth fund to help small businesses. Creating 100,000 jobs is an ambitious target, but given the track record of 9,000 jobs last year, it is not out of reach. However, it is important to sustain those businesses; it is all very well having business start-ups, but the businesses must last. If they fail within the first year, it will have been a fruitless exercise. I hope that measures will be taken to sustain jobs. Not all sectors of the Scottish economy are booming. We have a downturn in the manufacturing sector, which, because of the strength of sterling, is suffering from the blow of cheap imports. I hope that the new Government will make strong and clear representations to the Westminster Government that, when the Bank of England monetary policy committee takes decisions on interest rates, we need those rates to come down.", "EditedTextHTML": "Our position on the beef-on-the-bone ban is clear. We are committed to having it lifted. There was no time scale on that in our manifesto.

I welcome the fact that the minister reinforced the importance we attach to the extra spending on public services. We must also realise that we have to generate the wealth, as that is what allows us to deliver good public services. As he rightly said, there are tremendous opportunities for the Scottish Parliament to exploit Scotland's industrial and entrepreneurial strengths, but I suggest that we are rather narrowly focused at the moment. We need to widen the range of industries in Scotland.

The appointment of a Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning is a symbol of joined-up government. It is essential that this new ministry brings business and higher education closer together. It is vital that we equip our work force, which will be our strength in the future, with the appropriate skills for business to exploit the knowledge economy. We must ensure that Scotland is a leading player in that economy. welcome the partnership agreement's proposals for the new business growth fund to help small businesses. Creating 100,000 jobs is an ambitious target, but given the track record of 9,000 jobs last year, it is not out of reach. However, it is important to sustain those businesses; it is all very well having business start-ups, but the businesses must last. If they fail within the first year, it will have been a fruitless exercise. I hope that measures will be taken to sustain jobs.

Not all sectors of the Scottish economy are booming. We have a downturn in the manufacturing sector, which, because of the strength of sterling, is suffering from the blow of cheap imports. I hope that the new Government will make strong and clear representations to the Westminster Government that, when the Bank of England monetary policy committee takes decisions on interest rates, we need those rates to come down.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1768E72P274C705781", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "The Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26689, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 808.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 808.0, "ID": 26689, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Murray, Elaine", "ID": 1768, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumfries" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Murray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Elaine Murray (Dumfries) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 906.0, "ContributionID": 705781, "EditedText": "As a mere female I am humbled by being able to take part in the same debate as the redoubtable Mr Hamilton. After hearing Nicola Sturgeon's comments about her abilities this morning, I can say only that at least the younger members of the SNP do not seem to be reluctant to blow their own trumpets. I am pleased to be able to speak in this debate on unemployment, and to note that in May this year the seasonally adjusted rate of claimant count unemployment has fallen to 5.5 per cent— although that is admittedly a small decrease over the year. I was also pleased to observe in a Scottish Parliament information centre publication on unemployment in Scotland in May 1999 that the figures for my constituency—which was referred to as Mr Mundell's region—bear out the statement I made last week on the economy of Dumfries and Galloway. I said that Dumfries is not an unemployment black spot. It has an unemployment rate of 5.4 per cent and is ranked 36th out of 73 constituencies in terms of unemployment. I was a wee bit confused about how Galloway and Upper Nithsdale—Mr Morgan's constituency—has an unemployment rate of 5.7 per cent, but is ranked 40th out of 73. As a former scientist, I thought that I understood numbers, but perhaps I do not. The unemployment rate in Dumfries has fallen by more than a quarter since 1996. I am much more concerned—and this is a matter for concern—to observe that the unemployment rate in my constituency suffered the fourth worst change over the past couple of months due to a couple of high-profile manufacturing jobs losses. Unemployment in the constituency has increased in the past year. That is why I particularly welcome the wording of the motion: it does not congratulate the Government and it is not self-satisfied.", "EditedTextHTML": "As a mere female I am humbled by being able to take part in the same debate as the redoubtable Mr Hamilton. After hearing Nicola Sturgeon's comments about her abilities this morning, I can say only that at least the younger members of the SNP do not seem to be reluctant to blow their own trumpets.

I am pleased to be able to speak in this debate on unemployment, and to note that in May this year the seasonally adjusted rate of claimant count unemployment has fallen to 5.5 per cent— although that is admittedly a small decrease over the year. I was also pleased to observe in a Scottish Parliament information centre publication on unemployment in Scotland in May 1999 that the figures for my constituency—which was referred to as Mr Mundell's region—bear out the statement I made last week on the economy of Dumfries and Galloway. I said that Dumfries is not an unemployment black spot. It has an unemployment rate of 5.4 per cent and is ranked 36th out of 73 constituencies in terms of unemployment.

I was a wee bit confused about how Galloway and Upper Nithsdale—Mr Morgan's constituency—has an unemployment rate of 5.7 per cent, but is ranked 40th out of 73. As a former scientist, I thought that I understood numbers, but perhaps I do not. The unemployment rate in Dumfries has fallen by more than a quarter since 1996.

I am much more concerned—and this is a matter for concern—to observe that the unemployment rate in my constituency suffered the fourth worst change over the past couple of months due to a couple of high-profile manufacturing jobs losses. Unemployment in the constituency has increased in the past year. That is why I particularly welcome the wording of the motion: it does not congratulate the Government and it is not self-satisfied.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1768E72P274C705783", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "The Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26689, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 808.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 808.0, "ID": 26689, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Murray, Elaine", "ID": 1768, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumfries" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Murray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Murray: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 910.0, "ContributionID": 705783, "EditedText": "The training count and unemployment rates are ways of monitoring unemployment, but they do not always represent the entire situation. Female unemployment always appears to be less than the male rate because to many women who are seeking work there is no financial benefit in making a claim for benefits. Interpretation of unemployment figures must be done carefully, but the figures can represent a trend as long as the parameters remain the same. The trend at the moment is downwards. The motion says that things must get better and that we must build on successes to make things better. There must be determination to build on economic success, to invest in jobs and skills and especially to provide a stable environment for enterprise and encourage the growth of new businesses. My colleagues and I can take that back to our constituents as a message of hope. We need to give that message of hope and we need to articulate the intention to not only bring jobs to our constituencies, but to ensure that employment is here to stay. Would you like me to wrap up, Mr Deputy Presiding Officer?", "EditedTextHTML": "The training count and unemployment rates are ways of monitoring unemployment, but they do not always represent the entire situation. Female unemployment always appears to be less than the male rate because to many women who are seeking work there is no financial benefit in making a claim for benefits. Interpretation of unemployment figures must be done carefully, but the figures can represent a trend as long as the parameters remain the same. The trend at the moment is downwards.

The motion says that things must get better and that we must build on successes to make things better. There must be determination to build on economic success, to invest in jobs and skills and especially to provide a stable environment for enterprise and encourage the growth of new businesses. My colleagues and I can take that back to our constituents as a message of hope. We need to give that message of hope and we need to articulate the intention to not only bring jobs to our constituencies, but to ensure that employment is here to stay. Would you like me to wrap up, Mr Deputy Presiding Officer?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1768E72P274C705787", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "The Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26689, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 808.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 808.0, "ID": 26689, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Murray, Elaine", "ID": 1768, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumfries" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Murray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Murray: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 918.0, "ContributionID": 705787, "EditedText": "I agree with Mr Swinney: we need to require organisations that are funded for the purpose of, and charged with the creation of, training and employment to demonstrate that they are doing their job. Glossy brochures and strategy documents produced in attractive offices are all very well, but what matters to those of our constituents who are out of work or who fear that they may become unemployed is that real jobs that pay decent wages come to their areas. Employment must be here to stay. I am glad to welcome the fall in unemployment in Scotland and I hope to see it reflected in my constituency in the near future.", "EditedTextHTML": "I agree with Mr Swinney: we need to require organisations that are funded for the purpose of, and charged with the creation of, training and employment to demonstrate that they are doing their job. Glossy brochures and strategy documents produced in attractive offices are all very well, but what matters to those of our constituents who are out of work or who fear that they may become unemployed is that real jobs that pay decent wages come to their areas. Employment must be here to stay. I am glad to welcome the fall in unemployment in Scotland and I hope to see it reflected in my constituency in the near future.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5296967+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C705790", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "The Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26689, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 808.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 808.0, "ID": 26689, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 926.0, "ContributionID": 705790, "EditedText": "I am sorry to interrupt, but if you end there we will be able to get the two concluding speeches in.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry to interrupt, but if you end there we will be able to get the two concluding speeches in.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.545317+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1782E69P279C705791", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "The Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26689, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 808.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 808.0, "ID": 26689, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Oldfather, Irene", "ID": 1782, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Cunninghame South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Irene Oldfather", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Oldfather: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 928.0, "ContributionID": 705791, "EditedText": "A sound economy will allow us to achieve that route out of poverty for our people.", "EditedTextHTML": "A sound economy will allow us to achieve that route out of poverty for our people.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.545317+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C705792", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "The Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26689, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 808.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 808.0, "ID": 26689, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Murray Tosh (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 931.0, "ContributionID": 705792, "EditedText": "I am sorry that Henry McLeish is not here to hear me say that I welcome much of what he said this afternoon, including the tone in which he addressed the debate. I will make some points about some of the content, but I thought that his vision statement was fair and positive. The picture that the minister painted of an improving economy, however, rattles back a little further than the past two years. This Government came in against a background of falling unemployment and inflation, as all members will be aware. The new ingredients that this Government introduced, which hardly anyone in this chamber welcomed, are the way in which interest rates are treated and the way in which the pound has been allowed to escalate, putting many of our industries and communities in a highly uncompetitive position. The Westminster Government has been unable to put that right and, although it may be outwith the powers of the people in this chamber, it remains one of the most important priorities for our pressured economy. The Conservatives were accused earlier of selective—indeed total—amnesia. I recollect three things in which the Conservative Government was involved. One was the agreement at Rio to cut emissions to combat global warming. We are now reaching the stage at which those agreements are starting to hit hard. Earlier, I mentioned the impact of the energy tax. It is causing real concern for many of our important industries. The minister undertook to listen to industry—I hope that that means that he will do more than listen. There is also the question of high fuel taxes in general and the burdens being put on road haulage. We have come to the point at which that is crippling for many companies and many regions. The second thing that the previous Government was involved in was roads, into which the Conservatives put a lot of money. We thought that roads were important and that many of our problems stemmed from our relative isolation and the fragility of much of our manufacturing industry. We still earn an awful lot from moving goods. We developed a roads programme which, on the M74, was heavy. A rolling programme was to follow.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry that Henry McLeish is not here to hear me say that I welcome much of what he said this afternoon, including the tone in which he addressed the debate. I will make some points about some of the content, but I thought that his vision statement was fair and positive.

The picture that the minister painted of an improving economy, however, rattles back a little further than the past two years. This Government came in against a background of falling unemployment and inflation, as all members will be aware.

The new ingredients that this Government introduced, which hardly anyone in this chamber welcomed, are the way in which interest rates are treated and the way in which the pound has been allowed to escalate, putting many of our industries and communities in a highly uncompetitive position. The Westminster Government has been unable to put that right and, although it may be outwith the powers of the people in this chamber, it remains one of the most important priorities for our pressured economy.

The Conservatives were accused earlier of selective—indeed total—amnesia. I recollect three things in which the Conservative Government was involved. One was the agreement at Rio to cut emissions to combat global warming. We are now reaching the stage at which those agreements are starting to hit hard. Earlier, I mentioned the impact of the energy tax. It is causing real concern for many of our important industries.

The minister undertook to listen to industry—I hope that that means that he will do more than listen. There is also the question of high fuel taxes in general and the burdens being put on road

haulage. We have come to the point at which that is crippling for many companies and many regions.

The second thing that the previous Government was involved in was roads, into which the Conservatives put a lot of money. We thought that roads were important and that many of our problems stemmed from our relative isolation and the fragility of much of our manufacturing industry. We still earn an awful lot from moving goods. We developed a roads programme which, on the M74, was heavy. A rolling programme was to follow.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.545317+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C705794", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "The Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26689, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 808.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 808.0, "ID": 26689, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 935.0, "ContributionID": 705794, "EditedText": "Yesterday, Sarah Boyack acknowledged that that programme had virtually been axed and that it is unlikely that the new Scottish Government will restore much of it. This Parliament must take the issue of roads seriously if it wants to do something about the more isolated economies. The third important thing that the Conservative Government did was to address the entire structure of enterprise. For examples, members can look at Scottish Enterprise and Locate in Scotland. We tried to streamline the process of attracting inward investment. Scottish Enterprise faces a decline in its budget and spending allocations. It believes that it could spend more and that, if it were given the resources, it could generate employment. Surely we must use the enterprise agencies to breathe life into some of the areas of our country where the enterprise structure is weak. We must examine that again and consider the boundaries between local government and the enterprise agencies, what more we can do to promote the economies of peripheral areas and the issues of energy and roads. Subject to those criticisms, I accept much of the message in the minister's speech, but we have a lot of practical work to do to flesh it out.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yesterday, Sarah Boyack acknowledged that that programme had virtually been axed and that it is unlikely that the new Scottish Government will restore much of it. This Parliament must take the issue of roads seriously if it wants to do something about the more isolated economies.

The third important thing that the Conservative Government did was to address the entire structure of enterprise. For examples, members can look at Scottish Enterprise and Locate in Scotland. We tried to streamline the process of attracting inward investment. Scottish Enterprise faces a decline in its budget and spending allocations. It believes that it could spend more and that, if it were given the resources, it could generate employment. Surely we must use the enterprise agencies to breathe life into some of the areas of our country where the enterprise structure is weak. We must examine that again and consider the boundaries between local government and the enterprise agencies, what more we can do to promote the economies of peripheral areas and the issues of energy and roads. Subject to those criticisms, I accept much of the message in the minister's speech, but we have a lot of practical work to do to flesh it out.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.545317+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2154E194P299C705797", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "The Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26689, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 808.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 808.0, "ID": 26689, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stephen, Nicol", "ID": 2154, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Nicol Stephen", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning (Nicol Stephen): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 943.0, "ContributionID": 705797, "EditedText": "In the main, we have had a good and constructive forward- looking debate this afternoon. The role of Government and politicians in our economy and in supporting enterprise and business will always be controversial, and one that is rightly debated, but all of us in the chamber will agree that there is a role to play and that we want it to be positive. I welcome John Swinney's constructive comments. I wish him well as the Convener of the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee and look forward to working closely with him and other members of the committee. I welcome his support for the \"Pathfinders to the Parliament\" report, which makes many detailed and constructive suggestions, and for the Scottish Enterprise strategy. He asked about the need for refining and refocusing the work of the economic development agencies in Scotland. We do not see the need for major upheaval, but his suggestion of refining and refocusing should happen. The roles of tourism, inward investment, business support and other aspects of the agencies should always be looked at constructively. Mr Swinney spoke about competitive advantage and particularly about small businesses and rating, which was commented on by other members. As was stated earlier this afternoon, that issue will be addressed in the autumn. I say to Annabel Goldie that I understand the situation of small businesses, having been a small businessperson. We are conscious of the pressures on small businesses and we are meeting representatives of the small business sector later this week. However, I do not necessarily agree with Duncan Hamilton that we can isolate the small business sector and look only at internal demand. We are part of a global economy and our global position is critical. David Davidson made many constructive comments about the importance of education and the need for an action plan to develop a strategy for Scotland's skill base. We agree with him. With regard to the oil industry, there are problems, but they are not nearly as severe as the problems that existed in the mid-1980s. At that time, I led an all-party delegation to Westminster to lobby the Conservative Government on the great problems facing the industry. We got short shrift and the plight was greater than it is now.", "EditedTextHTML": "In the main, we have had a good and constructive forward- looking debate this afternoon. The role of Government and politicians in our economy and in supporting enterprise and business will always be controversial, and one that is rightly debated, but all of us in the chamber will agree that there is a role to play and that we want it to be positive.

I welcome John Swinney's constructive comments. I wish him well as the Convener of the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee and look forward to working closely with him and other members of the committee. I welcome his support for the \"Pathfinders to the Parliament\" report, which makes many detailed and constructive suggestions, and for the Scottish Enterprise strategy. He asked about the need for refining and refocusing the work of the economic development agencies in Scotland. We do not see the need for major upheaval, but his suggestion of refining and refocusing should happen. The roles of tourism, inward investment, business support and other aspects of the agencies should always be looked at constructively.

Mr Swinney spoke about competitive advantage and particularly about small businesses and rating, which was commented on by other members. As was stated earlier this afternoon, that issue will be addressed in the autumn. I say to Annabel Goldie that I understand the situation of small businesses, having been a small businessperson. We are conscious of the pressures on small businesses and we are meeting representatives of the small business sector later this week. However, I do not necessarily agree with Duncan Hamilton that we can isolate the small business sector and look only at internal demand. We are part of a global economy and our global position is critical.

David Davidson made many constructive comments about the importance of education and the need for an action plan to develop a strategy for Scotland's skill base. We agree with him.

With regard to the oil industry, there are problems, but they are not nearly as severe as the problems that existed in the mid-1980s. At that time, I led an all-party delegation to Westminster to lobby the Conservative Government on the great problems facing the industry. We got short shrift and the plight was greater than it is now.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.545317+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2154E194P299C705799", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "The Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26689, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 808.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 808.0, "ID": 26689, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stephen, Nicol", "ID": 2154, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Nicol Stephen", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicol Stephen: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 947.0, "ContributionID": 705799, "EditedText": "The value of sterling is affected greatly by interest rates, which are now a matter for the Bank of England. Mr Swinney will know that on many reserved and economic matters the Liberal Democrats will continue to have debates, and sometimes disagreements, with the Labour party, but in relation to the issues that are being discussed by his committee and by all of us in this Parliament, we want to continue to be forward- looking and constructive. The value of the pound creates some severe problems for the manufacturing sector throughout the United Kingdom. That causes me some concern, but having a strong currency is a good thing for a country. We do not want our currency to be falling. The decline of a currency also attracts considerable attention.", "EditedTextHTML": "The value of sterling is affected greatly by interest rates, which are now a matter for the Bank of England. Mr Swinney will know that on many reserved and economic matters the Liberal Democrats will continue to have debates, and sometimes disagreements, with the Labour party, but in relation to the issues that are being discussed by his committee and by all of us in this Parliament, we want to continue to be forward- looking and constructive.

The value of the pound creates some severe problems for the manufacturing sector throughout the United Kingdom. That causes me some concern, but having a strong currency is a good thing for a country. We do not want our currency to be falling. The decline of a currency also attracts considerable attention.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.545317+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1865E219P509C705804", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "The Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26689, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 808.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 808.0, "ID": 26689, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "White, Sandra", "ID": 1865, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sandra White", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms White: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 957.0, "ContributionID": 705804, "EditedText": "Nicol Stephen mentioned inward investment and global companies. Does he agree with me—and, I presume, all other members in this chamber—that we do not need companies such as Via Systems, which take our money and run away? Would it not be better to invest our money in indigenous industries?", "EditedTextHTML": "Nicol Stephen mentioned inward investment and global companies. Does he agree with me—and, I presume, all other members in this chamber—that we do not need companies such as Via Systems, which take our money and run away? Would it not be better to invest our money in indigenous industries?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.545317+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C705806", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26690, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 961.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 961.0, "ID": 26690, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 963.0, "ContributionID": 705806, "EditedText": "I remind members that they cannot vote unless their cards are in the console. In light of yesterday's experience, I will not put the questions too quickly. Will members note, however, that the vote does not count before the \"vote now\" light on the console is on. The vote of anyone who presses the button prematurely will not be recorded. There are five questions to be put as a result of today's business. The first question is, that amendment S1M-67.1, in the name of Mr Jack McConnell, which proposes an amendment to motion S1M-67, in the name of Mr Alex Salmond, on the privatisation of public services, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "I remind members that they cannot vote unless their cards are in the console. In light of yesterday's experience, I will not put the questions too quickly. Will members note, however, that the vote does not count before the \"vote now\" light on the console is on. The vote of anyone who presses the button prematurely will not be recorded.

There are five questions to be put as a result of today's business. The first question is, that amendment S1M-67.1, in the name of Mr Jack McConnell, which proposes an amendment to motion S1M-67, in the name of Mr Alex Salmond, on the privatisation of public services, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.545317+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C705808", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26690, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 961.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 961.0, "ID": 26690, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 967.0, "ContributionID": 705808, "EditedText": "There will be a division. Those who support Jack McConnell's amendment should press the yes button, or the others accordingly.", "EditedTextHTML": "There will be a division. Those who support Jack McConnell's amendment should press the yes button, or the others accordingly.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.545317+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C705821", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26690, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 961.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 961.0, "ID": 26690, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 988.0, "ContributionID": 705821, "EditedText": "There will be a division. Those who want to vote in support of Mr Swinney's amendment should vote yes.", "EditedTextHTML": "There will be a division. Those who want to vote in support of Mr Swinney's amendment should vote yes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.545317+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C705814", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26690, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 961.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 961.0, "ID": 26690, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 977.0, "ContributionID": 705814, "EditedText": "There will be a division. Those who wish to support the motion vote yes, and the others accordingly.", "EditedTextHTML": "There will be a division. Those who wish to support the motion vote yes, and the others accordingly.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.545317+00:00" }, { "ID": "C705824", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26690, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 961.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 961.0, "ID": 26690, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 993.0, "ContributionID": 705824, "EditedText": "Amendment disagreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment disagreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C705827", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26690, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 961.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 961.0, "ID": 26690, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 998.0, "ContributionID": 705827, "EditedText": "There will be a division. Members should vote yes to agree to Mr Davidson's amendment.", "EditedTextHTML": "There will be a division. Members should vote yes to agree to Mr Davidson's amendment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C705829", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26690, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 961.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 961.0, "ID": 26690, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1002.0, "ContributionID": 705829, "EditedText": "Stop the voting. I will take the vote again. However, I hope that by this time it is not necessary for me to say that in order to vote yes the members must press the yes button, to vote no they must press the no button, and to abstain they must press the abstain button. Can we take that as read from now on? I will simply indicate the start of the voting. I will put the question again.The question is, that amendment S1M-68.2, in the name of Mr David Davidson, be agreed to. Those who want to vote yes should do so now.", "EditedTextHTML": "Stop the voting. I will take the vote again. However, I hope that by this time it is not necessary for me to say that in order to vote yes the members must press the yes button, to vote no they must press the no button, and to abstain they must press the abstain button. Can we take that as read from now on? I will simply indicate the start of the voting.

I will put the question again.

The question is, that amendment S1M-68.2, in the name of Mr David Davidson, be agreed to.

Those who want to vote yes should do so now.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "C705830", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26690, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 961.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 961.0, "ID": 26690, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1004.0, "ContributionID": 705830, "EditedText": "FOR Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)AGAINST Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)Mackay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)(LD)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)ABSTENTIONS Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Crawford, Bruce JP (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)

AGAINST

Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Mackay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)
(LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)

ABSTENTIONS

Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce JP (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C705831", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26690, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 961.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 961.0, "ID": 26690, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1005.0, "ContributionID": 705831, "EditedText": "The result of the division is as follows: For 14, Against 73, Abstentions 34.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result of the division is as follows: For 14, Against 73, Abstentions 34.

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" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "C705837", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26690, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 961.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 961.0, "ID": 26690, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1016.0, "ContributionID": 705837, "EditedText": "FOR Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)Mackay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)(LD)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)AGAINST Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)ABSTENTIONS Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD) Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Mackay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)
(LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)

AGAINST

Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)

ABSTENTIONS

Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C705838", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26690, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 961.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 961.0, "ID": 26690, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 1017.0, "ContributionID": 705838, "EditedText": "The result of the division is as follows: For 70, Against 13, Abstentions 2.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result of the division is as follows: For 70, Against 13, Abstentions 2.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.5609464+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1870E181P475C705505", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robison, Shona", "ID": 1870, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Shona Robison", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Shona Robison (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 308.0, "ContributionID": 705505, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "

Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:01:03.9549326+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C705618", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26661, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 531.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26662, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 534.0, "QuestionHeading": "Small Businesses", "QuestionHeadingID": 26664, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 544.0, "DisplayOrder": 544.0, "ID": 26664, "ParentID": 26662 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fergus Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 547.0, "ContributionID": 705618, "EditedText": "What kind of logic dictates that small businesses—the engine of growth in the Scottish economy—must pay 50 per cent of the full rates bill for any small shop or office that is empty, while empty industrial premises, such as the premises in Dunfermline that are not occupied by Hyundai, receive 100 per cent remission?", "EditedTextHTML": "What kind of logic dictates that small businesses—the engine of growth in the Scottish economy—must pay 50 per cent of the full rates bill for any small shop or office that is empty, while empty industrial premises, such as the premises in Dunfermline that are not occupied by Hyundai, receive 100 per cent remission?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:01:03.9549326+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1773E197P503C705425", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hyslop, Fiona", "ID": 1773, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona Hyslop", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona Hyslop (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 141.0, "ContributionID": 705425, "EditedText": "Does Mr McNulty agree that the reviews announced today on issues such as surplus land have been introduced only because of the SNP's sustained pressure on and criticism of Labour's PFI policy? The scandal of Edinburgh's land rip-off is a prime example of that policy.", "EditedTextHTML": "Does Mr McNulty agree that the reviews announced today on issues such as surplus land have been introduced only because of the SNP's sustained pressure on and criticism of Labour's PFI policy? The scandal of Edinburgh's land rip-off is a prime example of that policy.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:01:23.8313068+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2180E179P471C705639", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26661, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 531.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26662, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 534.0, "QuestionHeading": "Fishing (Safety)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26670, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 592.0, "DisplayOrder": 592.0, "ID": 26670, "ParentID": 26662 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lochhead, Richard", "ID": 2180, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Lochhead", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Richard Lochhead: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 595.0, "ContributionID": 705639, "EditedText": "Does the minister agree that it is ludicrous and incredibly unacceptable that the safety of our fishermen depends upon property deals in London? The Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food failed to sell Covent Garden, so the deficit that was left led to the current fisheries grant scheme drying up.", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the minister agree that it is ludicrous and incredibly unacceptable that the safety of our fishermen depends upon property deals in London? The Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food failed to sell Covent Garden, so the deficit that was left led to the current fisheries grant scheme drying up.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:55.929179+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C705762", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "The Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26689, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 808.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 808.0, "ID": 26689, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fergus Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 864.0, "ContributionID": 705762, "EditedText": "On the topic of business rates, does Mr Davidson accept the evidence of the Scottish Council Development and Industry that, while the Conservative party was in power, the total surcharge that Scottish businesses paid, according to Craig Campbell, was £1.2 billion? That was when the uniform business rate was in force and so it had nothing to do with local authorities of other hues. The uniform business rate amounted to a 20 per cent tax on every business in Scotland. That was not a tartan tax for each of those five years, but a London levy of 20 per cent on every Scottish business and small shop that Mr Davidson is now purporting to defend.", "EditedTextHTML": "On the topic of business rates, does Mr Davidson accept the evidence of the Scottish Council Development and Industry that, while the Conservative party was in power, the total surcharge that Scottish businesses paid, according to Craig Campbell, was £1.2 billion? That was when the uniform business rate was in force and so it had nothing to do with local authorities of other hues. The uniform business rate amounted to a 20 per cent tax on every business in Scotland. That was not a tartan tax for each of those five years, but a London levy of 20 per cent on every Scottish business and small shop that Mr Davidson is now purporting to defend.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:01:17.555696+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C705758", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "The Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26689, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 808.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 808.0, "ID": 26689, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fergus Ewing (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP) rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 856.0, "ContributionID": 705758, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:01:17.555696+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C705709", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26683, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 697.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26684, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 700.0, "QuestionHeading": "Roads Review", "QuestionHeadingID": 26687, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 733.0, "DisplayOrder": 733.0, "ID": 26687, "ParentID": 26684 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 752.0, "ContributionID": 705709, "EditedText": "It would be premature for me to announce an individual option from the strategic roads review before we have conducted that review. As I mentioned to Malcolm Chisholm, the key issues are to do with access, integration, safety and economy. We are investigating those things in the roads review. When Parliament returns in the autumn, we can consider those issues and decide on our priorities.", "EditedTextHTML": "It would be premature for me to announce an individual option from the strategic roads review before we have conducted that review. As I mentioned to Malcolm Chisholm, the key issues are to do with access, integration, safety and economy. We are investigating those things in the roads review. When Parliament returns in the autumn, we can consider those issues and decide on our priorities.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:13.3570755+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C705658", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26661, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 531.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26662, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 534.0, "QuestionHeading": "Schools", "QuestionHeadingID": 26675, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 637.0, "DisplayOrder": 637.0, "ID": 26675, "ParentID": 26662 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "14. Nicola Sturgeon (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 638.0, "ContributionID": 705658, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it has any plans to change the current method of target setting in schools. (S1O-80)", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it has any plans to change the current method of target setting in schools. (S1O-80)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:00:59.8834011+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C705660", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26661, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 531.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26662, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 534.0, "QuestionHeading": "Schools", "QuestionHeadingID": 26675, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 637.0, "DisplayOrder": 637.0, "ID": 26675, "ParentID": 26662 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 642.0, "ContributionID": 705660, "EditedText": "I will take that as a no. Does the minister accept that the current method of target setting in schools has almost no support among teachers, education authorities and parents? In fact, the Scottish Parent Teacher Council has been one of the method's most outspoken critics. Does he further accept that the targets have little or no statistical validity because of their reliance on free school meal entitlement, which is an inadequate measure of the differences in school intake characteristics? Finally, does he accept that if we are to have targets that can assist in raising standards, they must be more sophisticated and bear more relevance to the individual circumstances of schools?", "EditedTextHTML": "I will take that as a no. Does the minister accept that the current method of target setting in schools has almost no support among teachers, education authorities and parents? In fact, the Scottish Parent Teacher Council has been one of the method's most outspoken critics. Does he further accept that the targets have little or no statistical validity because of their reliance on free school meal entitlement, which is an inadequate measure of the differences in school intake characteristics? Finally, does he accept that if we are to have targets that can assist in raising standards, they must be more sophisticated and bear more relevance to the individual circumstances of schools?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:00:59.8834011+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C705367", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 21.0, "ContributionID": 705367, "EditedText": "This morning's debate is extremely significant, although I see that most of my Labour colleagues and all of my Liberal Democrat colleagues take a somewhat different view. The debate is significant because the subject matter is so important, but also because this is the first opportunity for the Parliament to discuss Opposition business. As is evident in this motion, the Scottish National party is a constructive Opposition. We will criticise and oppose vigorously, where appropriate, but we will do more than that. As a party that aspires to government, we will also propose real alternatives, as we are doing today. We have chosen the topic for this morning's debate for very good reasons. The privatisation of public services through the private finance initiative was one of the election campaign's central issues. A substantial number—who knows, possibly even a majority—of members of this Parliament oppose PFI, or at the very least have grave reservations about it. The SNP stood on a platform of opposition, as did the Liberal Democrats, the Scottish Socialist party, the Greens and Dennis Canavan. In the \"Newsnight\" poll, conducted before the election, 24 Labour candidates said that they were in favour of reducing the reliance on PFI. Admittedly, as we do not know the identity of those 24, we do not know how many of them are now MSPs, but we know that Labour is far from united on the issue. John McAllion once said that Tory ideas live on under the initials PFI. He was right, and he reiterated his opposition to PFI during the election campaign. It was, and is, only the Tories who, to a person, are enthusiastic supporters of the scheme. Despite the opposition, which is shared by the vast majority of people in Scotland who want education and health to be retained in public hands, Labour is determined to press on. Labour is aided and abetted in that determination, I am sad to say, by members on the Liberal Democrat front bench, one of whom has now decided to join us in the chamber. I was somewhat surprised to read in the partnership agreement about the commitment to £600 million of investment in school infrastructure. I was surprised because I had not heard any Liberal Democrat member boasting about that seemingly remarkable achievement. At that point, alarm bells began to ring and I asked a parliamentary question, the answer to which confirmed my suspicions. Of that £600 million, £400 million is money to support the PFI—yet another breathtaking U-turn by the Liberal Democrats. In April this year, a spokesman for the Liberal Democrats said that if they were in a position of power at Holyrood, they would press for the abolition of PFI. Here they are, in that position of power, and in just a couple of weeks they have gone from a manifesto promise to replace the expensive and inefficient PFI agreements to Jim Wallace's go-ahead for the privatisation of 100 schools. The SNP's opposition to PFI remains, because it is expensive to the taxpayer. Currently, the Treasury can borrow money by issuing gilts at a rate of around 4.5 per cent, but the interest rate on PFI contracts is around 9.5 per cent. Common sense tells us that that is inevitable with PFI, because if private investors cannot get an attractive enough return on their investment, they will not invest. The Government tries to use the cover of commercial confidentiality to shroud the PFI deals in secrecy, but the public should know what PFI is costing them. That is why our motion calls for publication of the details and the rates of return. Jack McConnell is smiling, but if the Government is confident that PFI represents value for money, surely as Minister for Finance he will have no worries about full public disclosure. PFI is also grossly inefficient. The negotiations take an age; in the world of private finance, time is money and profits always come before the public interest. On \"Channel 4 News\" on Monday night, the chief executive of Jarvis said that his company's first loyalty is to its shareholders and that any enterprise only exists because it makes money. That may be so, but it is also the reason why companies such as Jarvis should not be allowed to own schools and hospitals. The first loyalty of the people who own schools should be to the children and the first loyalty of those who own hospitals should be to the patients. The overriding reason for the SNP's opposition to PFI is that it represents, as Mr McConnell's successor, Alex Rowley, said in 1996, the privatisation of public services: privatisation of the education system, the national health service and transport services. The assets that are created by PFI will never return to public ownership. PFI contracts are frequently referred to as mortgages, but in the real world, when someone pays off their mortgage, they own their house. That is not so in the case of private finance. Under PFI, the investor gets his money back, makes a profit and keeps the goods.", "EditedTextHTML": "This morning's debate is extremely significant, although I see that most of my Labour colleagues and all of my Liberal Democrat colleagues take a somewhat different view. The debate is significant because the subject matter is so important, but also because this is the first opportunity for the Parliament to discuss Opposition business.

As is evident in this motion, the Scottish National party is a constructive Opposition. We will criticise and oppose vigorously, where appropriate, but we will do more than that. As a party that aspires to government, we will also propose real alternatives, as we are doing today.

We have chosen the topic for this morning's debate for very good reasons. The privatisation of public services through the private finance initiative was one of the election campaign's central issues. A substantial number—who knows, possibly even a majority—of members of this

Parliament oppose PFI, or at the very least have grave reservations about it. The SNP stood on a platform of opposition, as did the Liberal Democrats, the Scottish Socialist party, the Greens and Dennis Canavan. In the \"Newsnight\" poll, conducted before the election, 24 Labour candidates said that they were in favour of reducing the reliance on PFI. Admittedly, as we do not know the identity of those 24, we do not know how many of them are now MSPs, but we know that Labour is far from united on the issue. John McAllion once said that Tory ideas live on under the initials PFI. He was right, and he reiterated his opposition to PFI during the election campaign. It was, and is, only the Tories who, to a person, are enthusiastic supporters of the scheme.

Despite the opposition, which is shared by the vast majority of people in Scotland who want education and health to be retained in public hands, Labour is determined to press on. Labour is aided and abetted in that determination, I am sad to say, by members on the Liberal Democrat front bench, one of whom has now decided to join us in the chamber.

I was somewhat surprised to read in the partnership agreement about the commitment to £600 million of investment in school infrastructure. I was surprised because I had not heard any Liberal Democrat member boasting about that seemingly remarkable achievement. At that point, alarm bells began to ring and I asked a parliamentary question, the answer to which confirmed my suspicions. Of that £600 million, £400 million is money to support the PFI—yet another breathtaking U-turn by the Liberal Democrats. In April this year, a spokesman for the Liberal Democrats said that if they were in a position of power at Holyrood, they would press for the abolition of PFI. Here they are, in that position of power, and in just a couple of weeks they have gone from a manifesto promise to replace the expensive and inefficient PFI agreements to Jim Wallace's go-ahead for the privatisation of 100 schools.

The SNP's opposition to PFI remains, because it is expensive to the taxpayer. Currently, the Treasury can borrow money by issuing gilts at a rate of around 4.5 per cent, but the interest rate on PFI contracts is around 9.5 per cent. Common sense tells us that that is inevitable with PFI, because if private investors cannot get an attractive enough return on their investment, they will not invest. The Government tries to use the cover of commercial confidentiality to shroud the PFI deals in secrecy, but the public should know what PFI is costing them. That is why our motion calls for publication of the details and the rates of return. Jack McConnell is smiling, but if the Government is confident that PFI represents value for money, surely as Minister for Finance he will have no worries about full public disclosure.

PFI is also grossly inefficient. The negotiations take an age; in the world of private finance, time is money and profits always come before the public interest. On \"Channel 4 News\" on Monday night, the chief executive of Jarvis said that his company's first loyalty is to its shareholders and that any enterprise only exists because it makes money. That may be so, but it is also the reason why companies such as Jarvis should not be allowed to own schools and hospitals. The first loyalty of the people who own schools should be to the children and the first loyalty of those who own hospitals should be to the patients.

The overriding reason for the SNP's opposition to PFI is that it represents, as Mr McConnell's successor, Alex Rowley, said in 1996, the privatisation of public services: privatisation of the education system, the national health service and transport services. The assets that are created by PFI will never return to public ownership. PFI contracts are frequently referred to as mortgages, but in the real world, when someone pays off their mortgage, they own their house. That is not so in the case of private finance. Under PFI, the investor gets his money back, makes a profit and keeps the goods.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:00:50.3207435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C705369", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 25.0, "ContributionID": 705369, "EditedText": "My colleagues, including Margo MacDonald, will return to the issue of the Edinburgh royal infirmary later on, but I believe that it is one. MEMBERS: \"Answer the question.\" I have taken Mr McConnell's point. The Government's answer to the privatisation charge is that while it may be selling the asset, it is not privatising the service. That is absolute nonsense. Before I address the example of education, I will allow Keith Raffan to intervene.", "EditedTextHTML": "My colleagues, including Margo MacDonald, will return to the issue of the Edinburgh royal infirmary later on, but I believe that it is one. [MEMBERS: \"Answer the question.\"] I have taken Mr McConnell's point.

The Government's answer to the privatisation charge is that while it may be selling the asset, it is not privatising the service. That is absolute nonsense.

Before I address the example of education, I will allow Keith Raffan to intervene.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:00:50.3207435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C705377", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 41.0, "ContributionID": 705377, "EditedText": "It was only right to allow the former leader of Perth and Kinross Council to intervene. We will be seeing a lot more in the future of the alliance to which he referred. Like other councils, Perth and Kinross Council has to play the only game in town. We do not accept the policies, so our attacks should be aimed at the policy makers rather than the deliverers. I now return to privatisation and, no doubt, the denials that will come from Labour members. Let us put aside the question of how long it will be before the jobs of teachers as well as those of janitors are outsourced; before we ask the private sector to provide mainstream education services; and before we go down the road of education action zones, which exist in England, or of charter schools, which exist in the United States. The fact remains that school buildings and ancillary workers cannot be separated from the delivery of the whole education service. According to Unison, \"the operation of buildings and facilities for local services are an intrinsic part of service delivery.\" This is privatisation. With privatisation comes the deterioration of services, jobs and workers' conditions. I cannot be the only person who felt a shiver down their spine on Monday night when listening to the chief executive of Jarvis on Channel 4. He was asked whether he hoped to be running a couple of hundred schools in two or three years' time. He answered yes. The interviewer then suggested that that would make Jarvis a very powerful player in Britain's education system. The chief executive answered that he hoped so. I hope not, because that chief executive's first loyalty—remember—is to his shareholders. In other words, he does not consider himself accountable to the public.", "EditedTextHTML": "It was only right to allow the former leader of Perth and Kinross Council to intervene. We will be seeing a lot more in the future of the alliance to which he referred. Like other councils, Perth and Kinross Council has to play the only game in town. We do not accept the policies, so our attacks should be aimed at the policy makers rather than the deliverers.

I now return to privatisation and, no doubt, the denials that will come from Labour members. Let us put aside the question of how long it will be before the jobs of teachers as well as those of janitors are outsourced; before we ask the private sector to provide mainstream education services; and before we go down the road of education action zones, which exist in England, or of charter schools, which exist in the United States. The fact remains that school buildings and ancillary workers cannot be separated from the delivery of the whole education service. According to Unison,

\"the operation of buildings and facilities for local services are an intrinsic part of service delivery.\"

This is privatisation. With privatisation comes the deterioration of services, jobs and workers' conditions. I cannot be the only person who felt a shiver down their spine on Monday night when listening to the chief executive of Jarvis on Channel 4. He was asked whether he hoped to be running a couple of hundred schools in two or three years' time. He answered yes. The interviewer then suggested that that would make Jarvis a very powerful player in Britain's education system. The chief executive answered that he hoped so.

I hope not, because that chief executive's first loyalty—remember—is to his shareholders. In other words, he does not consider himself accountable to the public.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:00:50.3207435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C705379", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 45.0, "ContributionID": 705379, "EditedText": "No, I have taken several interventions already. This Parliament can and will hold Sam Galbraith and Susan Deacon responsible and accountable for the state of our education and health services. We might not always be satisfied with their answers, but at least we can ask them questions. That is not so with companies such as Jarvis, as their only loyalty is to shareholders. It is very easy, as I think I have ably demonstrated, to demolish the case for the private finance initiative. The challenge is to come up with an alternative; the SNP has risen to that challenge. The SNP's alternative is one that the Liberal Democrats gave support to in the election campaign. We proposed the introduction of Scottish public service trusts that would be nonprofit- making and would be charged to act in the public interest. Such trusts would not have to satisfy shareholders, and could issue bonds at keener borrowing rates than those that are available to the private sector—the trusts would supply services at a cheaper cost. Our proposals have been described by the leading financier, Bill McCall, as \"financially doable\" and have received support from people such as Dennis Canavan, the Liberal Democrats— although I understand that they have changed their minds—and Bob Thomson of Unison. Our proposals are extremely worthy of consideration.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I have taken several interventions already.

This Parliament can and will hold Sam Galbraith and Susan Deacon responsible and accountable for the state of our education and health services. We might not always be satisfied with their answers, but at least we can ask them questions. That is not so with companies such as Jarvis, as their only loyalty is to shareholders.

It is very easy, as I think I have ably demonstrated, to demolish the case for the private finance initiative. The challenge is to come up with an alternative; the SNP has risen to that challenge. The SNP's alternative is one that the Liberal Democrats gave support to in the election campaign. We proposed the introduction of Scottish public service trusts that would be nonprofit- making and would be charged to act in the public interest. Such trusts would not have to satisfy shareholders, and could issue bonds at keener borrowing rates than those that are available to the private sector—the trusts would supply services at a cheaper cost.

Our proposals have been described by the leading financier, Bill McCall, as \"financially doable\" and have received support from people such as Dennis Canavan, the Liberal Democrats— although I understand that they have changed their minds—and Bob Thomson of Unison. Our proposals are extremely worthy of consideration.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:00:50.3207435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C705457", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 207.0, "ContributionID": 705457, "EditedText": "Will Mr Raffan give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr Raffan give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:00:50.3207435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2110E214P424C705430", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gibson, Kenneth", "ID": 2110, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenneth Gibson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Kenneth Gibson (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 152.0, "ContributionID": 705430, "EditedText": "When Des talked about £500 million being added to the public sector through PFI, was he aware that, according to Scottish Office outturn figures, £494 million has been cut from capital expenditure in local authorities since the Labour Government took office in 1997? I want to nail the lie about why SNP councils have been forced down the PFI route. In 1995-96, Government support for local government in Scotland was £734 million at constant 1997-98 prices. That support has fallen in the current financial year to £328 million, which represents a cumulative cut of £1,470 million in Government capital support for Scottish local government in just four years. That is why Perth and Kinross Council, Angus Council and Moray Council went down the PFI road: they had absolutely no other option. Peter Williams of the Council of Mortgage Lenders, speaking last week at a Chartered Institute of Housing conference in Edinburgh, described PFI as \"pushing the bill out into the future\".Unison's document, \"Paying for Scotland's Public Services\", described PFI as \"like paying off a 30-year mortgage and the building society keeping your house\". Unison and the Council of Mortgage Lenders are hardly political or economic soul mates, but what they have in common is that they recognise that somebody somewhere in the Government has to stand up and tell the truth about public policy on PFI. The truth is that PFI is the equivalent of the never-never—always paying, never owning. In order to guarantee lower taxes today, PFI means higher taxes tomorrow.", "EditedTextHTML": "When Des talked about £500 million being added to the public sector through PFI, was he aware that, according to Scottish Office outturn figures, £494 million has been cut from capital expenditure in local authorities since the Labour Government took office in 1997?

I want to nail the lie about why SNP councils have been forced down the PFI route. In 1995-96, Government support for local government in Scotland was £734 million at constant 1997-98 prices. That support has fallen in the current financial year to £328 million, which represents a cumulative cut of £1,470 million in Government capital support for Scottish local government in just four years. That is why Perth and Kinross Council, Angus Council and Moray Council went down the PFI road: they had absolutely no other option.

Peter Williams of the Council of Mortgage Lenders, speaking last week at a Chartered Institute of Housing conference in Edinburgh, described PFI as

\"pushing the bill out into the future\".

Unison's document, \"Paying for Scotland's Public Services\", described PFI as

\"like paying off a 30-year mortgage and the building society keeping your house\".

Unison and the Council of Mortgage Lenders are hardly political or economic soul mates, but what they have in common is that they recognise that somebody somewhere in the Government has to stand up and tell the truth about public policy on PFI. The truth is that PFI is the equivalent of the never-never—always paying, never owning. In order to guarantee lower taxes today, PFI means

higher taxes tomorrow.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:24:23.6870353+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2110E214P424C705432", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gibson, Kenneth", "ID": 2110, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenneth Gibson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Gibson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 156.0, "ContributionID": 705432, "EditedText": "The Skye toll bridge.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Skye toll bridge.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:24:23.6870353+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2110E214P424C705434", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gibson, Kenneth", "ID": 2110, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenneth Gibson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Gibson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 160.0, "ContributionID": 705434, "EditedText": "The important issue is the option to buy. Mr McConnell talks about the option of being able to buy, but he is asking the public sector to buy at the very end of the contract after it has paid through the nose throughout the contract period. The truth is that, to guarantee lower taxes today, PFI means higher taxes tomorrow—when the bill that Peter Williams talked about finally presents itself. PFI is more about bolstering new Labour's political virility with its key financial backers in the City than about sound economic management. The truth is that the only people who will win from PFI are the financial consultants, contract lawyers and merchant bankers who have their snouts in the fiscal trough. Speaking to the companies that bid for PFI projects and build the infrastructure, I found, most surprisingly, that they, like local government, are involved in such projects solely because PFI is the only game in town. One senior engineer with a well-known plc recently told me that he regarded PFI as a banker's scam and that his company was more interested in building hospitals than in running them. I do not believe that he is alone in that view.", "EditedTextHTML": "The important issue is the option to buy. Mr McConnell talks about the option of being able to buy, but he is asking the public sector to buy at the very end of the contract after it has paid through the nose throughout the contract period.

The truth is that, to guarantee lower taxes today, PFI means higher taxes tomorrow—when the bill that Peter Williams talked about finally presents itself. PFI is more about bolstering new Labour's political virility with its key financial backers in the City than about sound economic management. The truth is that the only people who will win from PFI are the financial consultants, contract lawyers and merchant bankers who have their snouts in the fiscal trough.

Speaking to the companies that bid for PFI projects and build the infrastructure, I found, most surprisingly, that they, like local government, are involved in such projects solely because PFI is the only game in town. One senior engineer with a well-known plc recently told me that he regarded PFI as a banker's scam and that his company was more interested in building hospitals than in running them. I do not believe that he is alone in that view.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:24:23.6870353+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2110E214P424C705438", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gibson, Kenneth", "ID": 2110, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenneth Gibson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Gibson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 168.0, "ContributionID": 705438, "EditedText": "As that is something that we cannot discuss today—it is a policy that the Scottish Parliament cannot deliver on—that is a distraction from the subject at hand. I believe that PFI has had its day. If Liberal Democrat and Labour members agree, they should vote with us today to hasten its demise. If they vote on a party whip with coalition partners against what they know to be right, they will throw PFI a lifeline and shame themselves and their consciences.", "EditedTextHTML": "As that is something that we cannot discuss today—it is a policy that the Scottish Parliament cannot deliver on—that is a distraction from the subject at hand.

I believe that PFI has had its day. If Liberal Democrat and Labour members agree, they should vote with us today to hasten its demise. If they vote on a party whip with coalition partners against what they know to be right, they will throw PFI a lifeline and shame themselves and their consciences.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:24:23.7026612+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2110E214P424C705440", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gibson, Kenneth", "ID": 2110, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenneth Gibson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Gibson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 172.0, "ContributionID": 705440, "EditedText": "As I said, we will support those partnerships if there is no alternative and it is that or nothing. Labour has forced us into a position where there is no alternative.", "EditedTextHTML": "As I said, we will support those partnerships if there is no alternative and it is that or nothing. Labour has forced us into a position where there is no alternative.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:24:23.7026612+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2110E214P424C705448", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Privatisation of Public Services", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26659, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 13.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 13.0, "ID": 26659, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gibson, Kenneth", "ID": 2110, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenneth Gibson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Gibson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 188.0, "ContributionID": 705448, "EditedText": "The Liberal Democrats are the ones who have sold out. Every member of this Parliament knows that—even Liberal Democrats know it. My colleagues will specify—", "EditedTextHTML": "The Liberal Democrats are the ones who have sold out. Every member of this Parliament knows that—even Liberal Democrats know it. My colleagues will specify—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:24:23.7026612+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C705751", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "The Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26689, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 808.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 808.0, "ID": 26689, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 841.0, "ContributionID": 705751, "EditedText": "The chancellor has not increased interest rates; he has passed the responsibility to the Bank of England monetary policy committee. As a result of that decision, economic measures were applied in Scotland although there was no discernible reason why they should have been. The Scottish Council Development and Industry paper said that there was no reason to believe that there was an inflationary threat to the Scottish economy, which would have suggested that any action to increase interest rates was inappropriate. A factor that will affect many of the rural areas to which Mr McLeish referred is petrol duty. It will have an impact on the competitiveness of individuals and companies in the rural economy. There is a great deal on the agenda about economic development and enterprise in Scotland. The minister referred to the \"Pathfinders to the Parliament\" report, which was presided over by Lord Macdonald. The report contains a vast number of suggestions that I hope will be taken seriously by the Executive. There are a few thorny suggestions that I am sure the Executive will find rather uncomfortable and which I doubt it will take forward. They are good suggestions, and I am sure that my colleagues will refer to them in the debate. It would be difficult to disagree with Scottish Enterprise's strategy, but it is important that we press the enterprise networks much harder than before, to guarantee that they deliver the performance that the public expect but about which the public are not confident. The amendment in my name refers to four areas that we must consider more closely. I want to touch on those issues briefly, although I see that you are giving me a look, Mr Reid, which says that it is time that I was sitting down. We heard very little from the minister about the small business sector. Anyone who examines the performance and composition of the Scottish economy cannot fail to realise the implicit importance of delivering for the small business sector. I want the Government to produce a positive strategy to relieve the business rates burden on smaller companies, a measure that will give a competitive advantage to companies in Scotland. As part of that, we must recognise that a large proportion of the tourism industry is driven by the small business sector. I welcome the minister's announcement of a refocused strategy for the tourist board, but it is important that we examine the structures for the delivery of tourism support in Scotland, because they have not served us as effectively as they could.", "EditedTextHTML": "The chancellor has not increased interest rates; he has passed the responsibility to the Bank of England monetary policy committee. As a result of that decision, economic measures were applied in Scotland although there was no discernible reason why they should have been. The Scottish Council Development and Industry paper said that there was no reason to believe that there was an inflationary threat to the Scottish economy, which would have suggested that any action to increase interest rates was inappropriate.

A factor that will affect many of the rural areas to which Mr McLeish referred is petrol duty. It will have an impact on the competitiveness of individuals and companies in the rural economy.

There is a great deal on the agenda about economic development and enterprise in Scotland. The minister referred to the \"Pathfinders to the Parliament\" report, which was presided over by Lord Macdonald. The report contains a vast number of suggestions that I hope will be taken seriously by the Executive. There are a few thorny suggestions that I am sure the Executive will find rather uncomfortable and which I doubt it will take forward. They are good suggestions, and I am sure that my colleagues will refer to them in the debate.

It would be difficult to disagree with Scottish Enterprise's strategy, but it is important that we press the enterprise networks much harder than before, to guarantee that they deliver the performance that the public expect but about which the public are not confident.

The amendment in my name refers to four areas that we must consider more closely. I want to touch on those issues briefly, although I see that you are giving me a look, Mr Reid, which says that it is time that I was sitting down.

We heard very little from the minister about the small business sector. Anyone who examines the performance and composition of the Scottish economy cannot fail to realise the implicit importance of delivering for the small business sector. I want the Government to produce a positive strategy to relieve the business rates burden on smaller companies, a measure that will give a competitive advantage to companies in Scotland. As part of that, we must recognise that a large proportion of the tourism industry is driven by the small business sector. I welcome the minister's announcement of a refocused strategy for the tourist board, but it is important that we examine the structures for the delivery of tourism support in Scotland, because they have not served us as effectively as they could.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:30:29.7611592+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2110E214P424C705665", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26661, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 531.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26662, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 534.0, "QuestionHeading": "Local Government", "QuestionHeadingID": 26677, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 653.0, "DisplayOrder": 653.0, "ID": 26677, "ParentID": 26662 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gibson, Kenneth", "ID": 2110, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenneth Gibson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "16. Mr Kenneth Gibson (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 654.0, "ContributionID": 705665, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive when it intends to establish a power of general competence for local government in Scotland. (S1O-68) The Deputy Minister for Local Government (Mr Frank McAveety): Earlier this week the First Minister received the McIntosh report on local government and the Scottish Parliament. In that submission was a recommendation that a power of general competence be considered for councils. We are considering that recommendation in conjunction with the 29 other recommendations. We expect to have an opportunity to debate them in early July.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive when it intends to establish a power of general competence for local government in Scotland. (S1O-68) The Deputy Minister for Local Government (Mr Frank McAveety): Earlier this week the First Minister received the McIntosh report on local government and the Scottish Parliament. In that submission was a recommendation that a power of general competence be considered for councils. We are considering that recommendation in conjunction with the 29 other recommendations. We expect to have an opportunity to debate them in early July.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:28:33.8639665+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2110E214P424C705666", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26661, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 531.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26662, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 534.0, "QuestionHeading": "Local Government", "QuestionHeadingID": 26677, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 653.0, "DisplayOrder": 653.0, "ID": 26677, "ParentID": 26662 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gibson, Kenneth", "ID": 2110, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenneth Gibson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Gibson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 656.0, "ContributionID": 705666, "EditedText": "I was heartened by Wendy Alexander's comments in The Scotsman yesterday: she shares our view that the recommendations of the McIntosh report should not be cherry-picked. Will the minister confirm that the McIntosh recommendations will be implemented in full, at the earliest practical opportunity, without undue procrastination? Will the minister distance himself from the negative comments made in the press yesterday by Charlie Gordon, leader of Glasgow City Council?", "EditedTextHTML": "I was heartened by Wendy Alexander's comments in The Scotsman yesterday: she shares our view that the recommendations of the McIntosh report should not be cherry-picked. Will the minister confirm that the McIntosh recommendations will be implemented in full, at the earliest practical opportunity, without undue procrastination? Will the minister distance himself from the negative comments made in the press yesterday by Charlie Gordon, leader of Glasgow City Council?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:28:33.8639665+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1783E59P270C705670", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26661, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 531.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26662, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 534.0, "QuestionHeading": "Fuel Poverty (People with Disabilities)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26678, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 660.0, "DisplayOrder": 660.0, "ID": 26678, "ParentID": 26662 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Baillie, Jackie", "ID": 1783, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumbarton" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Jackie Baillie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Jackie Baillie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 665.0, "ContributionID": 705670, "EditedText": "The warm deal will benefit 25,000 people on low incomes. We are keen to ensure that its benefits are widely received.", "EditedTextHTML": "The warm deal will benefit 25,000 people on low incomes. We are keen to

ensure that its benefits are widely received.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:28:33.8639665+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1783E59P270C705635", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26661, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 531.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26662, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 534.0, "QuestionHeading": "Housing (People with Disabilities)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26669, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 581.0, "DisplayOrder": 581.0, "ID": 26669, "ParentID": 26662 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Baillie, Jackie", "ID": 1783, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumbarton" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Jackie Baillie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Jackie Baillie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 586.0, "ContributionID": 705635, "EditedText": "We are keen to make appropriate provision for all disabled people— including people with learning disabilities—in local housing strategies. Views on the matter have been sought in the housing green paper, and we will continue to keep it under consideration.", "EditedTextHTML": "We are keen to make appropriate provision for all disabled people— including people with learning disabilities—in local housing strategies. Views on the matter have been sought in the housing green paper, and we will continue to keep it under consideration.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:27:39.0629519+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1783E59P270C705637", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26661, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 531.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26662, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 534.0, "QuestionHeading": "Housing (People with Disabilities)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26669, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 581.0, "DisplayOrder": 581.0, "ID": 26669, "ParentID": 26662 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Baillie, Jackie", "ID": 1783, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumbarton" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Jackie Baillie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Jackie Baillie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 590.0, "ContributionID": 705637, "EditedText": "As Ms Hyslop will know, in the absence of a housing bill we can deal with certain issues without legislation, as it is not necessarily required.", "EditedTextHTML": "As Ms Hyslop will know, in the absence of a housing bill we can deal with certain issues without legislation, as it is not necessarily required.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:27:39.0629519+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C705738", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 24 Jun 1999", "ID": 4171 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-24T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "The Economy", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26689, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 808.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 808.0, "ID": 26689, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 814.0, "ContributionID": 705738, "EditedText": "I am grateful to the minister for his comments about the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee, which got off to a good start at its first meeting yesterday. In my capacity as convener of that committee, I want to ensure that the work of all the parties represented on it is effective, and that the minister has the opportunity to engage in dialogue. In particular, I want to ensure that we have the opportunity to involve people from the business community, and people with expertise in lifelong learning and enterprise. I welcome the opportunity that the minister has given me to put that on the record.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful to the minister for his comments about the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee, which got off to a good start at its first meeting yesterday. In my capacity as convener of that committee, I want to ensure that the work of all the parties represented on it is effective, and that the minister has the opportunity to engage in dialogue. In particular, I want to ensure that we have the opportunity to involve people from the business community, and people with expertise in lifelong learning and enterprise. I welcome the opportunity that the minister has given me to put that on the record.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:29:30.3706249+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C705348", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Peripheral Route, Aberdeen", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26657, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 295.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 295.0, "ID": 26657, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment (Sarah Boyack): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 324.0, "ContributionID": 705348, "EditedText": "I thank Brian Adam for raising this issue and thank all members for the level and quality of the contributions that they have made to the debate. I hope to travel to Aberdeen on 6 July. The comments made today will be useful when I visit the city and look at its transport problems. As members have said, this proposal has been around for a long time and has widespread implications, some of which members have picked up on today. The proposal has potential benefits for the economy and for congestion, by relieving traffic through the city, but an 18 km road through a green belt location also has potential costs and will potentially have an impact on local communities, as Irene McGugan mentioned. The route would cost a very large sum, as Brian Adam correctly identified. Early estimates suggest that the cost would be in the region of £85 million, which is far in excess of the sums that would be possible for such schemes with conventional funding. I will come back to that point later, because I think that it is a key issue. I want to address also the wider context of this proposal, because it cannot be examined in isolation from the overall transport strategy for Aberdeen and Aberdeenshire. I am delighted to put on record the extent to which Aberdeen City Council has promoted innovative and radical transport strategies. We have already heard about the sustainable transport strategy implemented in Aberdeen last year. It was funded in partnership, which is extremely important, as it set the context for an overall transport strategy. Improvements are taking place. Key examples are the park-and-ride site at Bridge of Don, the bus priority measures along the A944 from the previous transport challenge fund, this year's public transport fund approval for bus priority measures, park-and-ride sites on other important corridors into the city, and other proposals being developed by the council for bus priority measures in other parts of the city. Progress has also been made on rail issues. Aberdeen City Council and Aberdeenshire Council have worked effectively with ScotRail to develop rail services in and around the Aberdeen area. There is also the possibility of a feasibility study into a half-hourly service between Stonehaven, Aberdeen and Inverurie. Those are important developments. Key service improvements have been introduced by ScotRail in the past two years. There are seven additional services through Stonehaven and five additional services through Dyce.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank Brian Adam for raising this issue and thank all members for the level and quality of the contributions that they have made to the debate.

I hope to travel to Aberdeen on 6 July. The comments made today will be useful when I visit the city and look at its transport problems. As members have said, this proposal has been around for a long time and has widespread

implications, some of which members have picked up on today. The proposal has potential benefits for the economy and for congestion, by relieving traffic through the city, but an 18 km road through a green belt location also has potential costs and will potentially have an impact on local communities, as Irene McGugan mentioned.

The route would cost a very large sum, as Brian Adam correctly identified. Early estimates suggest that the cost would be in the region of £85 million, which is far in excess of the sums that would be possible for such schemes with conventional funding. I will come back to that point later, because I think that it is a key issue.

I want to address also the wider context of this proposal, because it cannot be examined in isolation from the overall transport strategy for Aberdeen and Aberdeenshire.

I am delighted to put on record the extent to which Aberdeen City Council has promoted innovative and radical transport strategies. We have already heard about the sustainable transport strategy implemented in Aberdeen last year. It was funded in partnership, which is extremely important, as it set the context for an overall transport strategy.

Improvements are taking place. Key examples are the park-and-ride site at Bridge of Don, the bus priority measures along the A944 from the previous transport challenge fund, this year's public transport fund approval for bus priority measures, park-and-ride sites on other important corridors into the city, and other proposals being developed by the council for bus priority measures in other parts of the city.

Progress has also been made on rail issues. Aberdeen City Council and Aberdeenshire Council have worked effectively with ScotRail to develop rail services in and around the Aberdeen area. There is also the possibility of a feasibility study into a half-hourly service between Stonehaven, Aberdeen and Inverurie. Those are important developments.

Key service improvements have been introduced by ScotRail in the past two years. There are seven additional services through Stonehaven and five additional services through Dyce.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:13.3570755+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C705356", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Peripheral Route, Aberdeen", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26657, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 295.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 295.0, "ID": 26657, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 340.0, "ContributionID": 705356, "EditedText": "No, I will not give way, because I want to get on to funding, which is a key issue that several members have talked about. To avoid any doubt, I have to make it clear that the western peripheral road is not under consideration in the trunk roads review, nor has any Government made any commitment to incorporate such a road into the trunk road network. Members might ask why the Scottish Executive cannot, nevertheless, trunk this route and fund its construction. That question deserves a straight answer and I want to be as open as possible. The severe pressures on the trunk road budget mean that trunking would be an empty gesture—in the foreseeable future there is no realistic prospect of funding the western peripheral road from the trunk road programme. Many members have approached me over the past few weeks about road schemes in their localities. There is nothing wrong with their doing that: it is their job to represent the views of their constituents and local businesses. However, if I were to accede to every request, I could spend the trunk road budget several times over. Even if persuaded of the case for doing so, the Government could not build all those roads while meeting its priorities in education, health and housing. Somebody has to be disappointed. I therefore urge those from the north-east to consider alternative means of progressing this scheme, along the lines that I am about to suggest. Members will be aware that last week the Government announced its intention to introduce a transport bill in the next session. Among other things, the bill will permit local authorities to introduce charges for the use of existing local roads in a designated area, and will give them powers to levy workplace parking charges. We intend to consult widely on those issues, and to publish details of our charging proposals very shortly. I note Mr Adam's suggestions, and I encourage him to make them again during the consultation process. Any proposal by a local authority to introduce charging would require the consent of the Scottish Executive. In considering such a proposal, ministers will be mindful both of the extent to which the authority has won the support of its local communities for its integrated transport policy, and of the thoroughness with which the authority has established plans for spending money on all modes of transport. The new western peripheral road could be promoted using existing powers in the New Roads and Street Works Act 1991 for tolling new roads. Those powers are being used by the promoters of the Birmingham northern relief road, although that particular project has attracted a fair degree of controversy on other grounds and may not be the best of models. However, the 1991 act is worth considering. Inevitably, it will take time for people in Aberdeenshire and Aberdeen to develop and refine their thinking on strategy, including plans for the western peripheral. That will have been time well spent if the end result is a more integrated and sustainable set of proposals that address the transport problems of the north-east in the round. Officials met the councils last year and stand ready to do so again. I intend to be fully involved in the development of strategies and in the consultation on charging. I look forward to the development of today's debate, and to informed and balanced debate about how we might meet the needs of road users and public transport passengers alike. However, members must be under no illusions: there is no piggy bank sitting at Victoria Quay waiting to be raided. If the western peripheral is to have a place at the heart of Aberdeen's integrated transport strategy, it will require innovative funding sources and brave decisions by Aberdeen and Aberdeenshire councils working in partnership with their local communities. There is no ducking that hard reality. To say otherwise would be to raise unrealistic hopes in the minds of members and their constituents.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I will not give way, because I want to get on to funding, which is a key issue that several members have talked about. To avoid any doubt, I have to make it clear that the western peripheral road is not under consideration in the trunk roads review, nor has any Government made any commitment to incorporate such a road into the trunk road network.

Members might ask why the Scottish Executive cannot, nevertheless, trunk this route and fund its construction. That question deserves a straight answer and I want to be as open as possible. The severe pressures on the trunk road budget mean that trunking would be an empty gesture—in the foreseeable future there is no realistic prospect of funding the western peripheral road from the trunk road programme.

Many members have approached me over the past few weeks about road schemes in their localities. There is nothing wrong with their doing that: it is their job to represent the views of their constituents and local businesses. However, if I were to accede to every request, I could spend the trunk road budget several times over. Even if persuaded of the case for doing so, the Government could not build all those roads while meeting its priorities in education, health and housing. Somebody has to be disappointed. I therefore urge those from the north-east to consider alternative means of progressing this scheme, along the lines that I am about to suggest.

Members will be aware that last week the Government announced its intention to introduce a transport bill in the next session. Among other things, the bill will permit local authorities to introduce charges for the use of existing local roads in a designated area, and will give them powers to levy workplace parking charges. We intend to consult widely on those issues, and to publish details of our charging proposals very shortly. I note Mr Adam's suggestions, and I encourage him to make them again during the consultation process.

Any proposal by a local authority to introduce charging would require the consent of the Scottish Executive. In considering such a proposal, ministers will be mindful both of the extent to which the authority has won the support of its local communities for its integrated transport policy, and of the thoroughness with which the authority has established plans for spending money on all modes of transport.

The new western peripheral road could be promoted using existing powers in the New Roads and Street Works Act 1991 for tolling new roads. Those powers are being used by the promoters of the Birmingham northern relief road, although that particular project has attracted a fair degree of controversy on other grounds and may not be the best of models. However, the 1991 act is worth considering.

Inevitably, it will take time for people in Aberdeenshire and Aberdeen to develop and refine their thinking on strategy, including plans for the western peripheral. That will have been time well spent if the end result is a more integrated and sustainable set of proposals that address the transport problems of the north-east in the round.

Officials met the councils last year and stand ready to do so again. I intend to be fully involved in the development of strategies and in the consultation on charging. I look forward to the development of today's debate, and to informed and balanced debate about how we might meet the needs of road users and public transport passengers alike. However, members must be under no illusions: there is no piggy bank sitting at Victoria Quay waiting to be raided. If the western peripheral is to have a place at the heart of Aberdeen's integrated transport strategy, it will require innovative funding sources and brave decisions by Aberdeen and Aberdeenshire councils working in partnership with their local communities. There is no ducking that hard reality. To say otherwise would be to raise unrealistic hopes in the minds of members and their constituents.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:13.3570755+00:00" }, { "ID": "C705196", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Wednesday 23 June 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26652, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26652, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 2.0, "ContributionID": 705196, "EditedText": "THE PRESIDING OFFICER opened the meeting at 14:31", "EditedTextHTML": "[THE PRESIDING OFFICER opened the meeting at 14:31]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C705201", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Wednesday 23 June 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26652, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26652, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 11.0, "ContributionID": 705201, "EditedText": "I am sorry, but we cannot have debates on emergency questions.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry, but we cannot have debates on emergency questions.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C705205", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Wednesday 23 June 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26652, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26652, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 19.0, "ContributionID": 705205, "EditedText": "There is another point of order.", "EditedTextHTML": "There is another point of order.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C705206", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Wednesday 23 June 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26652, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26652, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 21.0, "ContributionID": 705206, "EditedText": "My point of order is also about written questions. The guidance on answering parliamentary questions states that ministers should reply within two weeks. That is fair enough but, obviously, from time to time ministers will not have a reply ready within two weeks. In those circumstances, and so that we know that ministers are held accountable, could ministers state why they cannot give a reply within the two weeks and indicate when they expect to be able to give a reply—instead of giving the sort of reply that I received from Mr Wallace, which said that he would reply as soon as that was possible?", "EditedTextHTML": "My point of order is also about written questions. The guidance on answering parliamentary questions states that ministers should reply within two weeks. That is fair enough but, obviously, from time to time ministers will not have a reply ready within two weeks. In those circumstances, and so that we know that ministers are held accountable, could ministers state why they cannot give a reply within the two weeks and indicate when they expect to be able to give a reply—instead of giving the sort of reply that I received from Mr Wallace, which said that he would reply as soon as that was possible?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C705207", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Wednesday 23 June 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26652, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26652, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 23.0, "ContributionID": 705207, "EditedText": "That is quite a reasonable point, but it is a point for the Executive that I think will have been noted. I do not like those open responses to questions as a general practice. I am not criticising ministers; I am simply saying that a fuller explanation is required by members if ministers are not able to give a response. There is another point of order.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is quite a reasonable point, but it is a point for the Executive that I think will have been noted. I do not like those open responses to questions as a general practice. I am not criticising ministers; I am simply saying that a fuller explanation is required by members if ministers are not able to give a response. There is another point of order.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C705209", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Wednesday 23 June 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26652, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26652, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 27.0, "ContributionID": 705209, "EditedText": "That really is not a point of order.", "EditedTextHTML": "That really is not a point of order.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C705211", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Freedom of Information", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26653, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 29.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 29.0, "ID": 26653, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice (Mr Jim Wallace): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 33.0, "ContributionID": 705211, "EditedText": "With permission, Sir David, I wish to outline to members how the Executive intends to take forward the partnership commitment to the early introduction of an effective freedom of information regime. This is a subject that I and many other members of this Parliament feel very strongly about. On my election as a member of the UK Parliament for Orkney and Shetland in 1983, I was asked what private member's bill I would like to promote if I were lucky in the ballot. I said—16 years ago— that I would like to introduce a freedom of information bill, but I never had any luck in the ballot. Fortunately, with the establishment of the Scottish Parliament, an effective Scottish freedom of information regime no longer depends on luck. Scotland has the opportunity to adopt a distinctive approach to openness and to create a freedom of information regime that is appropriate to a modern and open Government as we approach the 21st century. We are committed to creating open government in Scotland. The partnership agreement says that the Scottish Executive intends to put in place an effective freedom of information regime. Let me make absolutely clear what we mean by that. We mean a Scottish freedom of information bill that is introduced in this Parliament, scrutinised by this Parliament, and enacted at the hand of this Parliament. The bill will enshrine in primary legislation the people's right to have access to information. It is important that people recognise that we are serious about this commitment. By introducing primary legislation to this Parliament we will leave no one in any doubt. We attach great importance to an open and inclusive approach to policy development and we shall consult widely as we develop our policy on freedom of information. We welcome members' views and I expect that a committee of the Parliament will take a close interest in the development of policy in this area. We are committed to open and wide consultation but we also need to ensure that the process is driven forward. I propose to strike that balance by initiating consultation in the autumn. Based on the results of that consultation, we will introduce primary legislation as soon as possible. The Executive has moved swiftly on the commitment to freedom of information in the partnership agreement—today's commitment to legislation demonstrates that—but we need to ensure that effective arrangements are in place from 1 July. I therefore announce today that, for the first time ever, Scotland will be covered by a specifically Scottish non-statutory code of practice on access to Scottish Executive information. It will ensure that arrangements for access to information are in place from 1 July. Without that non-statutory code as an interim measure, Scotland would be worse off than the rest of the UK, and I will not allow that to happen. Copies of the code are being made available to members today and can be collected from the chamber reference point. Our commitment to an effective, statutory, freedom of information regime is not made lightly. We recognise that freedom of information is a complex area of public policy that has taxed successive UK Governments. Members will be aware of some of the criticisms that greeted the publication last month of the draft UK freedom of information bill for consultation. In developing our approach to freedom of information, we need to strike a careful balance between the public's right to know and public authorities' reasonable expectation of confidentiality for sensitive information. We also need to ensure that the necessary exchange of information with Westminster and with the devolved administrations in Northern Ireland and Wales can operate effectively. That arrangement is necessary to support the continued supply of information from Whitehall to the Scottish Executive. In formulating our way forward, we will take account of the draft UK bill and take stock of the comments and criticisms of it that arise during parliamentary scrutiny at Westminster. Effective freedom of information and openness is as much about culture as it is about legislation. We are therefore committed to fostering and maintaining an appropriate culture of openness throughout this Administration. The code of practice will preserve existing rights of access and afford the public and public bodies a degree of continuity. The code contains a strong presumption of openness. It makes clear that information should be disclosed unless the harm that is likely to arise from disclosure would outweigh the public interest in making the information available.The code is intended to support policy making and the democratic process by providing access to the information that is provided to ministers and to the facts and analyses which form the basis for the consideration of proposed policy. From the outset, the code will be effectively policed by the Scottish parliamentary commissioner for administration. The Scottish commissioner will submit reports to Parliament, as will the Executive, on the operation of the code. Members will refer to the Scottish commissioner complaints from the public that a Scottish public authority has failed to operate adequately the provisions of the code. I intend that the code and the role of the Scottish commissioner will be well publicised. The code will be made available widely in printed form and on the internet. I understand that the commissioner will distribute a leaflet that will set out his role and the ways in which a member of the public may submit a complaint to him through a member of the Parliament. I have written today to the bodies covered by the code, including the Scottish Prison Service, the Student Awards Agency for Scotland, Scottish Homes and the Scottish Environment Protection Agency, to reinforce the presumption of openness and to encourage them to continue to foster a culture of openness in their dealings with the public. I shall take a close interest in the operation of the code. The Executive is committed to running an open Administration, to consulting widely as we develop freedom of information policy for Scotland, to a non-statutory code from day one, and—most important—to an effective freedom of information act. This is an effective and ambitious package of measures that will lead to increased openness in the governing of Scotland. At the heart of the legislation we bring to the Parliament will be a presumption of openness. What has to be, and is increasingly being, recognised is that better scrutiny leads to better government. By making information more available we empower people— we do not weaken government. I look forward to working with members of this Parliament and others as the Executive puts into place Scotland's first ever freedom of information act.", "EditedTextHTML": "With permission, Sir David, I wish to outline to members how the Executive intends to take forward the partnership commitment to the early introduction of an effective freedom of information regime.

This is a subject that I and many other members of this Parliament feel very strongly about. On my election as a member of the UK Parliament for Orkney and Shetland in 1983, I was asked what private member's bill I would like to promote if I were lucky in the ballot. I said—16 years ago— that I would like to introduce a freedom of information bill, but I never had any luck in the ballot.

Fortunately, with the establishment of the Scottish Parliament, an effective Scottish freedom of information regime no longer depends on luck. Scotland has the opportunity to adopt a distinctive approach to openness and to create a freedom of information regime that is appropriate to a modern and open Government as we approach the 21st century. We are committed to creating open government in Scotland.

The partnership agreement says that the Scottish Executive intends to put in place an effective freedom of information regime. Let me make absolutely clear what we mean by that. We mean a Scottish freedom of information bill that is introduced in this Parliament, scrutinised by this Parliament, and enacted at the hand of this Parliament.

The bill will enshrine in primary legislation the people's right to have access to information. It is important that people recognise that we are serious about this commitment. By introducing primary legislation to this Parliament we will leave no one in any doubt.

We attach great importance to an open and inclusive approach to policy development and we shall consult widely as we develop our policy on freedom of information. We welcome members' views and I expect that a committee of the Parliament will take a close interest in the development of policy in this area. We are committed to open and wide consultation but we also need to ensure that the process is driven forward. I propose to strike that balance by initiating consultation in the autumn. Based on the results of that consultation, we will introduce primary legislation as soon as possible.

The Executive has moved swiftly on the commitment to freedom of information in the partnership agreement—today's commitment to legislation demonstrates that—but we need to ensure that effective arrangements are in place from 1 July. I therefore announce today that, for the first time ever, Scotland will be covered by a specifically Scottish non-statutory code of practice on access to Scottish Executive information. It will ensure that arrangements for access to information are in place from 1 July. Without that non-statutory code as an interim measure, Scotland would be worse off than the rest of the UK, and I will not allow that to happen. Copies of the code are being made available to members today and can be collected from the chamber reference point.

Our commitment to an effective, statutory, freedom of information regime is not made lightly. We recognise that freedom of information is a complex area of public policy that has taxed successive UK Governments. Members will be aware of some of the criticisms that greeted the publication last month of the draft UK freedom of information bill for consultation.

In developing our approach to freedom of information, we need to strike a careful balance between the public's right to know and public authorities' reasonable expectation of confidentiality for sensitive information. We also need to ensure that the necessary exchange of information with Westminster and with the devolved administrations in Northern Ireland and Wales can operate effectively. That arrangement is necessary to support the continued supply of information from Whitehall to the Scottish Executive.

In formulating our way forward, we will take account of the draft UK bill and take stock of the comments and criticisms of it that arise during parliamentary scrutiny at Westminster.

Effective freedom of information and openness is as much about culture as it is about legislation. We are therefore committed to fostering and maintaining an appropriate culture of openness throughout this Administration.

The code of practice will preserve existing rights of access and afford the public and public bodies a degree of continuity. The code contains a strong presumption of openness. It makes clear that information should be disclosed unless the harm that is likely to arise from disclosure would outweigh the public interest in making the

information available.

The code is intended to support policy making and the democratic process by providing access to the information that is provided to ministers and to the facts and analyses which form the basis for the consideration of proposed policy.

From the outset, the code will be effectively policed by the Scottish parliamentary commissioner for administration. The Scottish commissioner will submit reports to Parliament, as will the Executive, on the operation of the code. Members will refer to the Scottish commissioner complaints from the public that a Scottish public authority has failed to operate adequately the provisions of the code.

I intend that the code and the role of the Scottish commissioner will be well publicised. The code will be made available widely in printed form and on the internet. I understand that the commissioner will distribute a leaflet that will set out his role and the ways in which a member of the public may submit a complaint to him through a member of the Parliament.

I have written today to the bodies covered by the code, including the Scottish Prison Service, the Student Awards Agency for Scotland, Scottish Homes and the Scottish Environment Protection Agency, to reinforce the presumption of openness and to encourage them to continue to foster a culture of openness in their dealings with the public. I shall take a close interest in the operation of the code.

The Executive is committed to running an open Administration, to consulting widely as we develop freedom of information policy for Scotland, to a non-statutory code from day one, and—most important—to an effective freedom of information act.

This is an effective and ambitious package of measures that will lead to increased openness in the governing of Scotland. At the heart of the legislation we bring to the Parliament will be a presumption of openness. What has to be, and is increasingly being, recognised is that better scrutiny leads to better government. By making information more available we empower people— we do not weaken government.

I look forward to working with members of this Parliament and others as the Executive puts into place Scotland's first ever freedom of information act.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C705212", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Freedom of Information", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26653, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 29.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 29.0, "ID": 26653, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 35.0, "ContributionID": 705212, "EditedText": "The Deputy First Minister will now take questions on his statement. Members who wish to ask questions should press their request buttons.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Deputy First Minister will now take questions on his statement. Members who wish to ask questions should press their request buttons.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C705215", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Freedom of Information", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26653, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 29.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 29.0, "ID": 26653, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie (Lothians) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 41.0, "ContributionID": 705215, "EditedText": "I thank the minister for his courtesy in making an advance copy of his statement available to us, which facilitates comment on it. I would be grateful for his response to three points. First, why do we need a separate freedom of information act in Scotland, as distinct from a single UK measure based on a common set of principles? A single UK measure would mean that whatever agency or Government department our citizens are dealing with, whether in relation to a reserved or a devolved matter, they have access to information on the basis of a single statutory and legislative code. I fear that different regimes north and south of the border will make it difficult to resolve the access provisions that apply to information in matters where there is an interface between the UK Government and Scottish Office departments. Will we work on the principle that access is governed by the most liberal or the most restrictive regime? Secondly, I am grateful for the minister's response to Ms Cunningham's question, confirming that the code to which he refers is not a novel feature, but simply replicates what was put in place by the previous UK Government. Thirdly, will Mr Wallace and his colleagues have discussions with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities with a view to introducing a similar code for local government? That should happen in advance of the primary legislation to which he referred, which we will discuss in Parliament. Such a code should build on the existing local government access to information regime that was established in 1985. Is the minister aware that there are concerns about access to information in local government— particularly in relation to bodies funded by local government—where the information that has been made available to the public has not been all that is desired? There have been a number of instances of disastrous funding arrangements with partnership initiatives here in Lothian that freer and more accessible information would have avoided.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the minister for his courtesy in making an advance copy of his statement available to us, which facilitates comment on it. I would be grateful for his response to three points.

First, why do we need a separate freedom of information act in Scotland, as distinct from a single UK measure based on a common set of principles? A single UK measure would mean that whatever agency or Government department our citizens are dealing with, whether in relation to a reserved or a devolved matter, they have access to information on the basis of a single statutory and legislative code. I fear that different regimes north and south of the border will make it difficult to resolve the access provisions that apply to information in matters where there is an interface between the UK Government and Scottish Office departments. Will we work on the principle that access is governed by the most liberal or the most restrictive regime?

Secondly, I am grateful for the minister's response to Ms Cunningham's question, confirming that the code to which he refers is not a novel feature, but simply replicates what was put in place by the previous UK Government.

Thirdly, will Mr Wallace and his colleagues have discussions with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities with a view to introducing a similar code for local government? That should happen in advance of the primary legislation to which he referred, which we will discuss in Parliament. Such a code should build on the existing local government access to information regime that was established in 1985.

Is the minister aware that there are concerns about access to information in local government— particularly in relation to bodies funded by local government—where the information that has been made available to the public has not been all that is desired? There have been a number of instances of disastrous funding arrangements with partnership initiatives here in Lothian that freer and more accessible information would have avoided.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C705218", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Freedom of Information", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26653, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 29.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 29.0, "ID": 26653, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 47.0, "ContributionID": 705218, "EditedText": "I want to take the opportunity to clarify one point: the code of practice that we are discussing does not apply to the police, because the police are not subject to the jurisdiction of the parliamentary commissioner for administration. It is fair to say that it might be very worthwhile to consult on the inclusion of the police in a freedom of information regime. That is the situation in other countries that operate statutory regimes. There was a strong recommendation in the Macpherson report on the Stephen Lawrence case that the police should be covered by a statutory regime. That will be an important part of the consultation.", "EditedTextHTML": "I want to take the opportunity to clarify one point: the code of practice that we are discussing does not apply to the police, because the police are not subject to the jurisdiction of the parliamentary commissioner for administration. It is fair to say that it might be very worthwhile to consult on the inclusion of the police in a freedom of information regime. That is the situation in other countries that operate statutory regimes. There was a strong recommendation in the Macpherson report on the Stephen Lawrence case that the police should be covered by a statutory regime. That will be an important part of the consultation.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1990E181P340C705219", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Freedom of Information", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26653, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 29.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 29.0, "ID": 26653, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robson, Euan", "ID": 1990, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Roxburgh and Berwickshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Euan Robson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Euan Robson (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 49.0, "ContributionID": 705219, "EditedText": "On behalf of Liberal Democrat members, I welcome the minister's statement. It is particularly important that he has made clear that the code will be introduced because, if it is not, there will be no such facility after 1 July. Does he hope to use the concepts of prejudice and harm that are mentioned in the code—emphasising the tighter test of harm—in the draft legislation?", "EditedTextHTML": "On behalf of Liberal Democrat members, I welcome the minister's statement. It is particularly important that he has made clear that the code will be introduced because, if it is not, there will be no

such facility after 1 July. Does he hope to use the concepts of prejudice and harm that are mentioned in the code—emphasising the tighter test of harm—in the draft legislation?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C705222", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Freedom of Information", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26653, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 29.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 29.0, "ID": 26653, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 55.0, "ContributionID": 705222, "EditedText": "I am sorry to disappoint Mr Canavan, but there is a clear division between the freedom of information bill regime that will be passed by this Parliament, which will apply to matters that are the responsibility of the Scottish Parliament, and the matters that are reserved. As he knows, defence is not a responsibility of the Parliament, so it will continue to operate under freedom of information legislation passed by the Westminster Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry to disappoint Mr Canavan, but there is a clear division between the freedom of information bill regime that will be passed by this Parliament, which will apply to matters that are the responsibility of the Scottish Parliament, and the matters that are reserved. As he knows, defence is not a responsibility of the Parliament, so it will continue to operate under freedom of information legislation passed by the Westminster Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C705224", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Freedom of Information", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26653, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 29.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 29.0, "ID": 26653, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 59.0, "ContributionID": 705224, "EditedText": "I assure Mr Matheson that there will not be open-ended consultation. We want to make progress and drive the legislation through. However, I am sure that he and other members expect us to have a proper period of consultation, during which many of the bodies to which he referred can make a contribution. It is only right that they should have that opportunity to contribute to a distinctively Scottish freedom of information act.", "EditedTextHTML": "I assure Mr Matheson that there will not be open-ended consultation. We want to make progress and drive the legislation through. However, I am sure that he and other members expect us to have a proper period of consultation, during which many of the bodies to which he referred can make a contribution. It is only right that they should have that opportunity to contribute to a distinctively Scottish freedom of information act.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C705228", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Freedom of Information", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26653, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 29.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 29.0, "ID": 26653, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 67.0, "ContributionID": 705228, "EditedText": "No, it does not include the health boards or health trusts, which are covered by a separate code and, in some cases, by separate arrangements for access to medical records. I am aware that several members have already raised the question of access to information in the health service. As I said in my reply to Mr McLetchie, it would be quite proper to examine the effectiveness of the codes and the freedom of information regime that applies in that service. My answer to Mr Brown's second question is that the supply of specific documents is not required, although there will undoubtedly be occasions on which specific documents are supplied. However, the regime requires the supply of information rather than the provision of specific documents.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, it does not include the health boards or health trusts, which are covered by a separate code and, in some cases, by separate arrangements for access to medical records. I am aware that several members have already raised the question of access to information in the health service. As I said in my reply to Mr McLetchie, it would be quite proper to examine the effectiveness of the codes and the freedom of information regime that applies in that service.

My answer to Mr Brown's second question is that the supply of specific documents is not required, although there will undoubtedly be occasions on which specific documents are supplied. However, the regime requires the supply

of information rather than the provision of specific documents.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1821E295P538C705229", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Freedom of Information", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26653, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 29.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 29.0, "ID": 26653, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Mrs Margaret", "ID": 1821, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Moray" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Margaret Ewing (Moray) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 69.0, "ContributionID": 705229, "EditedText": "In the interests of freedom of information and of the public whom we serve, will members of this Parliament be given the same rights of parliamentary privilege as members at Westminster when they want to raise individual cases here?", "EditedTextHTML": "In the interests of freedom of information and of the public whom we serve, will members of this Parliament be given the same rights of parliamentary privilege as members at Westminster when they want to raise individual cases here?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C705230", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Freedom of Information", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26653, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 29.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 29.0, "ID": 26653, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 71.0, "ContributionID": 705230, "EditedText": "That might be a question to which you, Sir David, are better able to supply an answer. I understand that that is the case, but I would not want to commit myself firmly without taking advice.", "EditedTextHTML": "That might be a question to which you, Sir David, are better able to supply an answer. I understand that that is the case, but I would not want to commit myself firmly without taking advice.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C705232", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Freedom of Information", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26653, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 29.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 29.0, "ID": 26653, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 75.0, "ContributionID": 705232, "EditedText": "I will take those questions in reverse order. Many cases are covered by existing statute. The Rudolf Hess case almost certainly falls under a reserved power. If it is any consolation to John Young, I can tell him that I have had cause in the past week to write to the Secretary of State for Defence about the sinking off Orkney in 1916 of HMS Hampshire, about which there is still some concern among relatives of those who lost their lives. On the interface between Westminster and the Scottish Parliament, information on issues that are dealt with by the Scottish Parliament as devolved matters will be governed by the freedom of information regime that we agree here. Information that belongs—if I may use that word—to the Westminster Government will be governed by the rules that apply to the UK. It does not take long to work out that if there were a perception that one could come to Scotland to get information that was the property—as it were—of the Westminster Government and it could not be obtained in England, the supply of information might dry up. Common sense has to be applied in such circumstances.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will take those questions in reverse order.

Many cases are covered by existing statute. The Rudolf Hess case almost certainly falls under a reserved power. If it is any consolation to John Young, I can tell him that I have had cause in the past week to write to the Secretary of State for Defence about the sinking off Orkney in 1916 of HMS Hampshire, about which there is still some concern among relatives of those who lost their lives.

On the interface between Westminster and the Scottish Parliament, information on issues that are dealt with by the Scottish Parliament as devolved matters will be governed by the freedom of information regime that we agree here. Information that belongs—if I may use that word—to the Westminster Government will be governed by the rules that apply to the UK.

It does not take long to work out that if there were a perception that one could come to Scotland to get information that was the property—as it were—of the Westminster Government and it could not be obtained in England, the supply of information might dry up. Common sense has to be applied in such circumstances.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2099E29P51C705233", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Freedom of Information", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26653, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 29.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 29.0, "ID": 26653, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Young, John", "ID": 2099, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Young", "SpeakerDisplayName": "John Young rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 77.0, "ContributionID": 705233, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C705238", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Education Bill (Consultation)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26654, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 81.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 81.0, "ID": 26654, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Galbraith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 89.0, "ContributionID": 705238, "EditedText": "I am grateful to Nicola Sturgeon for her response if slightly disappointed by its rather ungenerous nature and tone, which does not augur well for consultation. I hope that her criticism will improve in tone in the future and that it will be better than the usual soundbite of \"missed opportunity\". I would have hoped that we could move on to more constructive criticism. Nicola Sturgeon asks me what is new in the consultation. We are proposing not only the use of new technology but a draft bill along with an explanation of it for further consultation and consideration. If she appreciates that what used to happen was that a bill was thrown at members on second reading and then off it went, she may find that significant. I should have thought that that was to be welcomed rather than slightly sneered at. Nicola Sturgeon also asked about content. We have taken the responses to the white paper into consideration. I cannot say anything more about the forum at this stage, as we are still considering it.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful to Nicola Sturgeon for her response if slightly disappointed by its rather ungenerous nature and tone, which does not augur well for consultation. I hope that her criticism will improve in tone in the future and that it will be better than the usual soundbite of \"missed opportunity\". I would have hoped that we could move on to more constructive criticism.

Nicola Sturgeon asks me what is new in the consultation. We are proposing not only the use of new technology but a draft bill along with an explanation of it for further consultation and consideration. If she appreciates that what used to happen was that a bill was thrown at members on second reading and then off it went, she may find that significant. I should have thought that that was to be welcomed rather than slightly sneered at.

Nicola Sturgeon also asked about content. We have taken the responses to the white paper into consideration. I cannot say anything more about the forum at this stage, as we are still considering it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C705240", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Education Bill (Consultation)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26654, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 81.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 81.0, "ID": 26654, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Galbraith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 93.0, "ContributionID": 705240, "EditedText": "I am grateful for the constructive nature of Mr Monteith's comments. The consultation document will contain the draft bill. I am sorry that we cannot produce it earlier, but that is simply because of the time factor involved in delivering on these matters. I want it to come out as soon as possible, but as that will happen after the Parliament rises, I thought that it would be discourteous of me not to speak to the Parliament before the recess. It is not the case that bills will be presented without consultation. I am not yet sure about the train in which the bills will come. The reason for the delay is that we want consultation. We are going into a holiday period and do not want to rush. I want to ensure that everyone has the opportunity to comment. Mr Monteith asked me about employers and the police. As always, we consider that employers have an essential role. We are often criticised within the Labour party for adopting that stance. The police are already involved in education in many ways, and that will continue.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful for the constructive nature of Mr Monteith's comments. The consultation document will contain the draft bill. I

am sorry that we cannot produce it earlier, but that is simply because of the time factor involved in delivering on these matters. I want it to come out as soon as possible, but as that will happen after the Parliament rises, I thought that it would be discourteous of me not to speak to the Parliament before the recess.

It is not the case that bills will be presented without consultation. I am not yet sure about the train in which the bills will come. The reason for the delay is that we want consultation. We are going into a holiday period and do not want to rush. I want to ensure that everyone has the opportunity to comment.

Mr Monteith asked me about employers and the police. As always, we consider that employers have an essential role. We are often criticised within the Labour party for adopting that stance. The police are already involved in education in many ways, and that will continue.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C705255", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Education Bill (Consultation)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26654, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 81.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 81.0, "ID": 26654, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Galbraith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 123.0, "ContributionID": 705255, "EditedText": "I have seen Mr Aitken's kind of persuasion. I greatly deprecate attempts to drive wedges between Government and teachers and Government and local authorities. This is a partnership in which we all have to work together. Having been round many schools in a short time, I have been impressed by the high standards of education, the buzz in schools and the quality and the commitment of teachers. It is time for Mr Aitken and other parties to recognise that instead of attacking us all the time.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have seen Mr Aitken's kind of persuasion. I greatly deprecate attempts to drive wedges between Government and teachers and Government and local authorities. This is a partnership in which we all have to work together. Having been round many schools in a short time, I have been impressed by the high standards of education, the buzz in schools and the quality and the commitment of teachers. It is time for Mr Aitken and other parties to recognise that instead of attacking us all the time.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1888E265P358C705266", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolved Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26655, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 127.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 127.0, "ID": 26655, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morgan, Alasdair", "ID": 1888, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Galloway and Upper Nithsdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morgan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alasdair Morgan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 148.0, "ContributionID": 705266, "EditedText": "The motion says that we should endorse the principle of the food standards agency. What about all the clauses and schedules in the bill? The bill is substantial and I suspect that not every member has considered it in detail. What happens if we do not agree with all or some of the bill's provisions? What about the future? It is clear from ministerial statements that the food standards agency is not the end of the story. This provides a precedent. What happens if the two Parliaments have Administrations of different political hues, as some members in the chamber might wish were the case? We can pass resolutions until we are blue or red in the face, but if the principle that Westminster can legislate in devolved areas is established, the game will be, frankly, a bogey.", "EditedTextHTML": "The motion says that we should endorse the principle of the food standards agency. What about all the clauses and schedules

in the bill? The bill is substantial and I suspect that not every member has considered it in detail. What happens if we do not agree with all or some of the bill's provisions? What about the future? It is clear from ministerial statements that the food standards agency is not the end of the story. This provides a precedent. What happens if the two Parliaments have Administrations of different political hues, as some members in the chamber might wish were the case? We can pass resolutions until we are blue or red in the face, but if the principle that Westminster can legislate in devolved areas is established, the game will be, frankly, a bogey.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1888E265P358C705259", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolved Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26655, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 127.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 127.0, "ID": 26655, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morgan, Alasdair", "ID": 1888, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Galloway and Upper Nithsdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morgan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alasdair Morgan (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 134.0, "ContributionID": 705259, "EditedText": "SNP members welcome the creation of a food standards agency in Scotland. Others will talk about the effect on consumers, but I want briefly to mention the effect on the food industry. The food industry is vital, especially for many rural parts of Scotland. It has many areas of excellence; it is an industry of which we should rightly be proud. As Susan Deacon said, it is essential that we increase consumer confidence and remove the suspicion—not necessarily always justified—that the agriculture department is in the pockets of the producers. The food industry in Scotland thrives because of its high reputation and high standards. Production—agriculture and horticulture—is not the only important area. There are also many downstream jobs—in processing, packaging and retailing. An independent agency should maintain high standards and help to reinforce public confidence. I welcome the Government's change of heart on the proposed levy that was to be placed on food outlets. That would have hit small butchers and other outlets in many parts of Scotland hard. I want to spend some time on the constitutional aspect of this measure. As Susan has said, food standards are a matter that has been devolved to this Parliament. Many matters are devolved to this Parliament by default. In other words, they are not mentioned specifically in the Scotland Act 1998, which lists a great number of matters that are not devolved—that is what schedule 5, on reserved matters, is all about. Food standards, and one or two other matters, are specifically and deliberately devolved to this Parliament, because they are exemptions from the general provision that product safety should be reserved. The precise terms of the derogation, if I may use that term, are that it covers \"food, agricultural and horticultural produce, fish, fish products, seeds, animal feeding stuffs, fertilisers and pesticides\"— the whole input to the food chain. Those are all matters for the Scottish Parliament—the Parliament that we will open next week with great celebration and royal and prime ministerial visits. However, before we even assume our powers in nine days' time, Westminster is embarking on legislation on an area that is totally devolved. In fact, it has already embarked on the legislation—the second reading debate on the Food Standards Bill took place at Westminster on Monday. I must say that far more people are here today than were present in the chamber at Westminster for that debate. This is not some spin-off from a piece of reserved legislation that happens to touch peripherally on a Scottish devolved matter. It is substantive and deliberative legislation— something for which, in nine days, we will be responsible. Why has the Government decided that it wants to keep some of the devolved powers down at Westminster? Does Westminster not want to let go? Does it want to ram home the idea that, ultimately, it remains in charge? The argument will be made—it has already been made—that there is some administrative convenience in having the same legislation and the same agency across the UK. Frankly, that argument could be applied across practically the whole range of devolved powers. If it is believed that a single policy, a single agency and a single set of regulations are the best way in which to proceed, why devolve anything? The time to decide whether food standards should be a devolved matter was when the Scotland Act 1998 was being considered by the House of Commons. That was when the decision was taken that the matter should be devolved to this Parliament. The essence of devolution, surely, is that we may wish to do things differently from how they are done in other parts of the country, either substantially or on points of detail. When the Scotland Bill was in committee on the floor of the House of Commons and what was then clause 27—about Westminster retaining sovereignty—was being debated, the secretary of state, as he then was, said: \"There is a possibility, in theory, of the United Kingdom Parliament legislating across those areas,\"— by which he meant devolved areas— \"but it is not one which we anticipate or expect.\"—OfficialReport, House of Commons, 28 January 1998; Vol 305, c 402-3. Donald Dewar has moved on a bit in the past 18 months, because on 16 June he said in this chamber: \"There will be exceptional and limited circumstances in which it is sensible and proper that the Westminster Parliament legislates in devolved areas\".—Official Report, 16 June 1999; Vol 1, c 403. We have moved on from a possibility in theory to exceptional and limited circumstances—a total difference over 18 months. Despite the fact that these powers have been specifically devolved, apparently food standards are such an exceptional issue that Westminster has to legislate on them. I do not think that they are exceptional enough to justify that; they are certainly not limited, either. If Westminster is going to legislate on this issue for us, one would hope that there would be some consultation. The motion that we are debating today says: \"That the Parliament . . . agrees that the Bill should be considered by the UK Parliament.\" The United Kingdom Parliament has slightly jumped the gun, as it has started to consider the bill—it gave it its second reading on Monday. Is the motion worth the paper on which it is written? Theoretically we have the ability to vote against it, but what will happen if we do?", "EditedTextHTML": "SNP members welcome the creation of a food standards agency in Scotland. Others will talk about the effect on consumers, but I want briefly to mention the effect on the food industry.

The food industry is vital, especially for many rural parts of Scotland. It has many areas of excellence; it is an industry of which we should rightly be proud. As Susan Deacon said, it is essential that we increase consumer confidence and remove the suspicion—not necessarily always justified—that the agriculture department is in the pockets of the producers.

The food industry in Scotland thrives because of its high reputation and high standards. Production—agriculture and horticulture—is not the only important area. There are also many downstream jobs—in processing, packaging and retailing. An independent agency should maintain high standards and help to reinforce public confidence.

I welcome the Government's change of heart on the proposed levy that was to be placed on food outlets. That would have hit small butchers and other outlets in many parts of Scotland hard.

I want to spend some time on the constitutional aspect of this measure. As Susan has said, food standards are a matter that has been devolved to this Parliament. Many matters are devolved to this Parliament by default. In other words, they are not mentioned specifically in the Scotland Act 1998, which lists a great number of matters that are not devolved—that is what schedule 5, on reserved matters, is all about. Food standards, and one or two other matters, are specifically and deliberately devolved to this Parliament, because they are

exemptions from the general provision that product safety should be reserved. The precise terms of the derogation, if I may use that term, are that it covers

\"food, agricultural and horticultural produce, fish, fish products, seeds, animal feeding stuffs, fertilisers and pesticides\"— the whole input to the food chain.

Those are all matters for the Scottish Parliament—the Parliament that we will open next week with great celebration and royal and prime ministerial visits. However, before we even assume our powers in nine days' time, Westminster is embarking on legislation on an area that is totally devolved. In fact, it has already embarked on the legislation—the second reading debate on the Food Standards Bill took place at Westminster on Monday. I must say that far more people are here today than were present in the chamber at Westminster for that debate.

This is not some spin-off from a piece of reserved legislation that happens to touch peripherally on a Scottish devolved matter. It is substantive and deliberative legislation— something for which, in nine days, we will be responsible. Why has the Government decided that it wants to keep some of the devolved powers down at Westminster? Does Westminster not want to let go? Does it want to ram home the idea that, ultimately, it remains in charge?

The argument will be made—it has already been made—that there is some administrative convenience in having the same legislation and the same agency across the UK. Frankly, that argument could be applied across practically the whole range of devolved powers. If it is believed that a single policy, a single agency and a single set of regulations are the best way in which to proceed, why devolve anything? The time to decide whether food standards should be a devolved matter was when the Scotland Act 1998 was being considered by the House of Commons. That was when the decision was taken that the matter should be devolved to this Parliament. The essence of devolution, surely, is that we may wish to do things differently from how they are done in other parts of the country, either substantially or on points of detail.

When the Scotland Bill was in committee on the floor of the House of Commons and what was then clause 27—about Westminster retaining sovereignty—was being debated, the secretary of state, as he then was, said:

\"There is a possibility, in theory, of the United Kingdom Parliament legislating across those areas,\"— by which he meant devolved areas—

\"but it is not one which we anticipate or expect.\"—[Official

Report, House of Commons, 28 January 1998; Vol 305, c 402-3.]

Donald Dewar has moved on a bit in the past 18 months, because on 16 June he said in this chamber:

\"There will be exceptional and limited circumstances in which it is sensible and proper that the Westminster Parliament legislates in devolved areas\".—[Official Report, 16 June 1999; Vol 1, c 403.]

We have moved on from a possibility in theory to exceptional and limited circumstances—a total difference over 18 months. Despite the fact that these powers have been specifically devolved, apparently food standards are such an exceptional issue that Westminster has to legislate on them. I do not think that they are exceptional enough to justify that; they are certainly not limited, either.

If Westminster is going to legislate on this issue for us, one would hope that there would be some consultation. The motion that we are debating today says:

\"That the Parliament . . . agrees that the Bill should be considered by the UK Parliament.\"

The United Kingdom Parliament has slightly jumped the gun, as it has started to consider the bill—it gave it its second reading on Monday. Is the motion worth the paper on which it is written? Theoretically we have the ability to vote against it, but what will happen if we do?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1888E265P358C705262", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolved Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26655, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 127.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 127.0, "ID": 26655, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morgan, Alasdair", "ID": 1888, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Galloway and Upper Nithsdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morgan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alasdair Morgan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 140.0, "ContributionID": 705262, "EditedText": "All good things are worth waiting for.", "EditedTextHTML": "All good things are worth waiting for.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C705269", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolved Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26655, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 127.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 127.0, "ID": 26655, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 155.0, "ContributionID": 705269, "EditedText": "I believe that the bill is in the interests of us all, regardless of our different political hues. I find little to criticise in it and the minister has already addressed many of the issues that I want to raise. None the less, I would like to emphasise some of them. I believe that a food standards agency would be in all our interests, and not only for our health. It would allow us to use our resources and it would lead to more jobs and to greater economic growth in Scotland. Anything that we can do to increase consumer confidence in goods produced in Scotland will be enormously beneficial. We welcome the idea of an effective and independent food standards agency that is properly set up and fairly funded. We believe that such an agency would improve food safety and raise public confidence in the British food industry while monitoring standards of food hygiene and addressing public health concerns. Like Mr Morgan, we also welcome the Government's U-turn over the £90 corner shop tax—which, notably, happened less than 24 hours after David McLetchie made his comments in this chamber. I look forward to future speedy responses from the Government to our constructive comments. There is some lack of clarity as to how genuinely independent the new food standards agency would be. For example, could it lift the beef-onthe- bone ban? If ministers routinely overrule the agency's recommendations, it is difficult to see how the agency could win full public confidence. There is also concern that the proposed agency would add to the many burdens that are already imposed on small and medium-size British food producers, because our standards would be higher than those required of imported food. That leads to the crucial question whether we can have the same confidence when we buy imported food in our shops and supermarkets as we have when we buy British food. We must address that in setting up the agency. Will the regulations apply equally to food that is produced in other European Union countries to guarantee British consumers consistent standards and protection? I have raised this point in the chamber before: the bill makes no provision for the environmental impact of the way in which foods are grown. There is widespread public concern over GM foods and crops; the food standards agency could probably help to allay those concerns if it were given the power to investigate. We believe that not giving the agency that power is a serious deficiency in the bill. We are constantly faced with conflicting information and contradictory academic research on environmental and public health concerns. That does not apply only to GM food. A headline in The Scotsman today reads: \"Consumers ‘being sold poisoned vegetables'\". I am pleased that the minister is addressing that. It is time, in her words, that we lived by sound scientific advice and not by the scaremongering headlines that we see week by week. Risk assessment and decisions must be open to public and parliamentary scrutiny. For example, what is the risk assessment of GM food compared with that of beef on the bone? I believe that the public need to know. We need to reassure them over their concerns. If the agency had the power to investigate GM foods, the public could have greater confidence. The food standards agency should not be used to penalise Scottish producers unfairly. The overregulation of food producers, which is not matched by the regulation of EU and other overseas producers, leads to an overall competitive disadvantage for producers in this country—for our farmers and for our food industries. In addressing the food standards agency, ministers should deal with the divergence of standards and the public health concerns arising from that.", "EditedTextHTML": "I believe that the bill is in the interests of us all, regardless of our different political hues. I find little to criticise in it and the minister has already addressed many of the issues that I want to raise. None the less, I would like to emphasise some of them.

I believe that a food standards agency would be in all our interests, and not only for our health. It would allow us to use our resources and it would lead to more jobs and to greater economic growth in Scotland. Anything that we can do to increase consumer confidence in goods produced in Scotland will be enormously beneficial.

We welcome the idea of an effective and independent food standards agency that is properly set up and fairly funded. We believe that such an agency would improve food safety and raise public confidence in the British food industry while monitoring standards of food hygiene and addressing public health concerns.

Like Mr Morgan, we also welcome the Government's U-turn over the £90 corner shop tax—which, notably, happened less than 24 hours after David McLetchie made his comments in this chamber. I look forward to future speedy responses from the Government to our constructive comments.

There is some lack of clarity as to how genuinely independent the new food standards agency would be. For example, could it lift the beef-onthe- bone ban? If ministers routinely overrule the agency's recommendations, it is difficult to see how the agency could win full public confidence.

There is also concern that the proposed agency would add to the many burdens that are already imposed on small and medium-size British food producers, because our standards would be higher than those required of imported food. That leads to the crucial question whether we can have the same confidence when we buy imported food in our shops and supermarkets as we have when we buy British food. We must address that in setting up the agency. Will the regulations apply equally to food that is produced in other European Union countries to guarantee British consumers consistent standards and protection?

I have raised this point in the chamber before: the bill makes no provision for the environmental impact of the way in which foods are grown. There is widespread public concern over GM foods and crops; the food standards agency could probably help to allay those concerns if it were given the power to investigate. We believe that not giving the agency that power is a serious deficiency in the bill.

We are constantly faced with conflicting information and contradictory academic research on environmental and public health concerns. That does not apply only to GM food. A headline in The Scotsman today reads: \"Consumers ‘being sold poisoned vegetables'\". I am pleased that the minister is addressing that. It is time, in her words, that we lived by sound scientific advice and not by

the scaremongering headlines that we see week by week.

Risk assessment and decisions must be open to public and parliamentary scrutiny. For example, what is the risk assessment of GM food compared with that of beef on the bone? I believe that the public need to know. We need to reassure them over their concerns. If the agency had the power to investigate GM foods, the public could have greater confidence.

The food standards agency should not be used to penalise Scottish producers unfairly. The overregulation of food producers, which is not matched by the regulation of EU and other overseas producers, leads to an overall competitive disadvantage for producers in this country—for our farmers and for our food industries. In addressing the food standards agency, ministers should deal with the divergence of standards and the public health concerns arising from that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C705274", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolved Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26655, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 127.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 127.0, "ID": 26655, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon (Argyll and Bute) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 169.0, "ContributionID": 705274, "EditedText": "I welcome the minister's announcement of the setting up of a food standards agency in Scotland. It will be one of the most significant new bodies to be established in many years and it will contribute to the prosperity of our food industry. In the past 10 to 15 years, the food industry has undergone one food scare after another, resulting in great crises of confidence in the products that Scotland produces. BSE is a classic example of such a scare, but there have been others. Every time a food scare erupted on the front pages, a politician would try to calm and reassure the public. Who could forget Douglas Hogg? Who could forget John Gummer feeding that beefburger to his children? On every occasion, politicians failed to reassure the public about the safety of the product; many times, they made the situation worse. Why? Because the public does not believe what politicians say about food safety any more. That is the situation that we face and that is why the setting up of a food standards agency is essential.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the minister's announcement of the setting up of a food standards agency in Scotland. It will be one of the most significant new bodies to be established in many years and it will contribute to the prosperity of our food industry. In the past 10 to 15 years, the food industry has undergone one food scare after another, resulting in great crises of confidence in the products that Scotland produces. BSE is a classic example of such a scare, but there have been others.

Every time a food scare erupted on the front pages, a politician would try to calm and reassure the public. Who could forget Douglas Hogg? Who could forget John Gummer feeding that beefburger to his children? On every occasion, politicians failed to reassure the public about the safety of the product; many times, they made the situation worse. Why? Because the public does not believe what politicians say about food safety any more.

That is the situation that we face and that is why the setting up of a food standards agency is essential.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C705275", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolved Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26655, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 127.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 127.0, "ID": 26655, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 171.0, "ContributionID": 705275, "EditedText": "Will George Lyon agree that the statements that were made by Douglas Hogg and other ministers were based on the medical evidence that was available to them?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will George Lyon agree that the statements that were made by Douglas Hogg and other ministers were based on the medical evidence that was available to them?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2080E130P217C705277", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolved Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26655, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 127.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 127.0, "ID": 26655, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lamont, Johann", "ID": 2080, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Pollok" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Johann Lamont", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Johann Lamont (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 176.0, "ContributionID": 705277, "EditedText": "For one who has never been described as a consensus politician, it is an interesting experience to welcome the consensus that is developing today. We are all on a learning curve and consensus represents my own learning curve, considering my political background. I welcome the establishment of the food standards agency and I want to emphasis the important role that it will have in protecting our families. It is interesting that, because of the food scares, issues of food safety have become universal. Before the scares, questions of health and food were often seen as the province of those with the income and time to move beyond the normal run of food outlets. As the issues have come into the popular domain, we have a responsibility to ensure that they remain there. We all have a role to play in ensuring that we eat safely and healthily. I welcome the decision not to fund the agency by an across-the-board levy on retail outlets. That would have had a significant impact on small outlets as they would have had to make a hugely disproportionate contribution. The debate around the issue has revealed the way in which the big retail companies have concentrated their businesses in a small number of premises, very often to the detriment of local communities. It has been claimed that David McLetchie should get credit for that change. As I am usually reluctant to give the Tories credit for anything, I would like to make another claim and declare an interest. I am supported by the Co-operative party, which is the political wing of the Co-operative movement. The retail wing of the movement is absolutely committed to supporting and sustaining local communities and does that by supporting small shops and establishing outlets, often in remote areas and poor areas. That strategy would have meant that the Co-operative movement would have been heavily penalised by a decision to fund the agency by an across-the-board levy. The role of the Co-operative movement in ensuring that there is not an across-the-board levy should be recognised, as should the fact that the Government was willing to make that change. On the broader question of food safety, I think we should recognise the drive towards uniformity in our shopping habits. That uniformity often excludes the poor, the elderly and those who do not own a car and makes those people more likely to suffer from poor standards of food safety. We should recognise the particular importance of supporting community and co-operative initiatives that relate to food and food safety. Those initiatives are able to address the issues and sustain new developments at a local level, something which will improve the health and safety of all communities in Scotland. We should all welcome the importance of the food standards agency and look forward to the agency doing effective work on behalf of the people of Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "For one who has never been described as a consensus politician, it is an interesting experience to welcome the consensus that is developing today. We are all on a learning curve and consensus represents my own learning curve, considering my political background.

I welcome the establishment of the food standards agency and I want to emphasis the important role that it will have in protecting our families. It is interesting that, because of the food scares, issues of food safety have become universal. Before the scares, questions of health and food were often seen as the province of those with the income and time to move beyond the normal run of food outlets. As the issues have come into the popular domain, we have a responsibility to ensure that they remain there. We all have a role to play in ensuring that we eat safely and healthily.

I welcome the decision not to fund the agency by an across-the-board levy on retail outlets. That would have had a significant impact on small outlets as they would have had to make a hugely disproportionate contribution. The debate around the issue has revealed the way in which the big retail companies have concentrated their businesses in a small number of premises, very often to the detriment of local communities.

It has been claimed that David McLetchie should get credit for that change. As I am usually reluctant to give the Tories credit for anything, I would like to make another claim and declare an interest. I am supported by the Co-operative party, which is the political wing of the Co-operative movement. The retail wing of the movement is absolutely committed to supporting and sustaining local communities and does that by supporting small shops and establishing outlets, often in remote areas and poor areas. That strategy would have meant that the Co-operative movement would have been heavily penalised by a decision to fund the agency by an across-the-board levy. The role of the Co-operative movement in ensuring that there is not an across-the-board levy should be recognised, as should the fact that the Government was willing to make that change.

On the broader question of food safety, I think we should recognise the drive towards uniformity in our shopping habits. That uniformity often excludes the poor, the elderly and those who do not own a car and makes those people more likely to suffer from poor standards of food safety. We should recognise the particular importance of supporting community and co-operative initiatives that relate to food and food safety. Those initiatives are able to address the issues and sustain new developments at a local level, something which will improve the health and safety of all communities in Scotland.

We should all welcome the importance of the food standards agency and look forward to the agency doing effective work on behalf of the people of Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1888E265P358C705280", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolved Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26655, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 127.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 127.0, "ID": 26655, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morgan, Alasdair", "ID": 1888, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Galloway and Upper Nithsdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morgan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alasdair Morgan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 183.0, "ContributionID": 705280, "EditedText": "Is Mr Johnstone saying that whatever standard is decided at Westminster is the correct one, and that any difference to our standard—whether it is in the detail, higher or lower—is therefore wrong? That is the logic of what he is saying.", "EditedTextHTML": "Is Mr Johnstone saying that whatever standard is decided at Westminster is the correct one, and that any difference to our standard—whether it is in the detail, higher or lower—is therefore wrong? That is the logic of what he is saying.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2140E187P335C705282", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolved Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26655, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 127.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 127.0, "ID": 26655, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Rumbles, Mike", "ID": 2140, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Rumbles", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Mike Rumbles (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 187.0, "ContributionID": 705282, "EditedText": "Given the new-found spirit of co-operation between the Conservative group and the Administration, can I assume—not that I wish to predict the result of the vote—that the motion will be passed? As an early shot, to get an oar in for the north-east of Scotland, I wonder whether Alex has seen my motion on establishing a Scottish branch of the food standards agency in the north-east, and whether he would give his support to that.", "EditedTextHTML": "Given the new-found spirit of co-operation between the Conservative group and the Administration, can I assume—not that I wish to predict the result of the vote—that the motion will be passed? As an early shot, to get an oar in for the north-east of Scotland, I wonder whether Alex has seen my motion on establishing a Scottish branch of the food standards agency in the north-east, and whether he would give his support to that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1893E47P78C705283", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolved Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26655, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 127.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 127.0, "ID": 26655, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnstone, Alex", "ID": 1893, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Johnstone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Johnstone: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 189.0, "ContributionID": 705283, "EditedText": "I will discuss the matter with Mr Rumbles at a future date, and I will consider supporting his proposals. A single UK standard is best for Scotland's food producers and for its farming industry. Ideally, that standard must be Europe-wide, in order to prevent unfair competition within the European single market.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will discuss the matter with Mr Rumbles at a future date, and I will consider supporting his proposals.

A single UK standard is best for Scotland's food producers and for its farming industry. Ideally, that standard must be Europe-wide, in order to prevent unfair competition within the European single market.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1811E172P455C705284", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolved Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26655, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 127.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 127.0, "ID": 26655, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ullrich, Kay", "ID": 1811, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kay Ullrich", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Kay Ullrich (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 192.0, "ContributionID": 705284, "EditedText": "If new Labour wants a UK-wide food standards agency, the great mystery is why it bothered to make that a devolved matter in the first place. Perhaps the mystery is not so great. Perhaps this is a sign of more to come. Perhaps what we are witnessing is evidence that what new Labour gives, it can take away; or could it be confirmation of Enoch Powell's statement that power devolved is power retained? This is exactly the type of legislation that should be scrutinised by the Scottish Parliament. If we are to address Scotland's dreadful health record, and the undoubted link between poverty and ill health, then we must address the inequality of access to fresh, nutritious, safe food. If people are poor, and particularly if they live in a peripheral housing scheme or a rural area, they are probably paying more for food that is less fresh, and have less choice, than their better-off, car-owning neighbours. Let me put it this way. If someone owns a car, they can nip into Tesco's and buy a loss-leader loaf for 7p. Try getting a loaf for that price in a corner shop or a village store. Those outlets cannot compete with supermarkets in terms of price or the range of goods available, but people cannot get tick at supermarkets and that is an important factor when they are living, quite literally, from hand to mouth. The main aim of a mother living on benefit is to ensure that her children are not hungry. That means buying the most filling foods at the lowest possible cost—lots of chips, pre-packaged beefburgers and pulped fish-fingers. Those foods are all high in additives and low in nutritional value, but they serve the immediate purpose—the children do not go to bed crying from hunger. I have spoken about nutritional inequality on many public platforms. I can lay money on the certainty that someone will be sure to say, \"Why don't they just make a good pot of soup? It's very nourishing and it doesn't cost much money.\" I can see smiles from colleagues all around the chamber who have obviously heard that too. I call those people the \"Let them eat soup\" brigade. The ingredients for soup—fresh vegetables and a good stock—are not readily available and are certainly not cheap in corner shops and village stores. The art of soup making is learned at granny's knee, and has been lost through the dispersal of families or the sheer grind of poverty.", "EditedTextHTML": "If new Labour wants a UK-wide food standards agency, the great mystery is why it bothered to make that a devolved matter in the first place. Perhaps the mystery is not so great. Perhaps this is a sign of more to come. Perhaps what we are witnessing is evidence that what new Labour gives, it can take away; or could it be confirmation of Enoch Powell's statement that power devolved is power retained?

This is exactly the type of legislation that should be scrutinised by the Scottish Parliament. If we are to address Scotland's dreadful health record, and the undoubted link between poverty and ill health, then we must address the inequality of access to fresh, nutritious, safe food. If people are poor, and

particularly if they live in a peripheral housing scheme or a rural area, they are probably paying more for food that is less fresh, and have less choice, than their better-off, car-owning neighbours.

Let me put it this way. If someone owns a car, they can nip into Tesco's and buy a loss-leader loaf for 7p. Try getting a loaf for that price in a corner shop or a village store. Those outlets cannot compete with supermarkets in terms of price or the range of goods available, but people cannot get tick at supermarkets and that is an important factor when they are living, quite literally, from hand to mouth.

The main aim of a mother living on benefit is to ensure that her children are not hungry. That means buying the most filling foods at the lowest possible cost—lots of chips, pre-packaged beefburgers and pulped fish-fingers. Those foods are all high in additives and low in nutritional value, but they serve the immediate purpose—the children do not go to bed crying from hunger.

I have spoken about nutritional inequality on many public platforms. I can lay money on the certainty that someone will be sure to say, \"Why don't they just make a good pot of soup? It's very nourishing and it doesn't cost much money.\" I can see smiles from colleagues all around the chamber who have obviously heard that too. I call those people the \"Let them eat soup\" brigade.

The ingredients for soup—fresh vegetables and a good stock—are not readily available and are certainly not cheap in corner shops and village stores. The art of soup making is learned at granny's knee, and has been lost through the dispersal of families or the sheer grind of poverty.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1811E172P455C705286", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolved Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26655, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 127.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 127.0, "ID": 26655, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ullrich, Kay", "ID": 1811, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kay Ullrich", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Kay Ullrich: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 196.0, "ContributionID": 705286, "EditedText": "He is going to give us his granny's recipe.", "EditedTextHTML": "He is going to give us his granny's recipe.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1811E172P455C705290", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolved Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26655, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 127.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 127.0, "ID": 26655, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ullrich, Kay", "ID": 1811, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kay Ullrich", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Kay Ullrich: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 204.0, "ContributionID": 705290, "EditedText": "I am pointing out that the greatest problem that the Parliament must address is that of the poverty that afflicts one in three children in our nation. This is an ideal opportunity to point out how difficult it is for people living in poverty to get access to low-cost, fresh, nutritious food.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am pointing out that the greatest problem that the Parliament must address is that of the poverty that afflicts one in three children in our nation. This is an ideal opportunity to point out how difficult it is for people living in poverty to get access to low-cost, fresh, nutritious food.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C705294", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolved Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26655, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 127.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 127.0, "ID": 26655, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 213.0, "ContributionID": 705294, "EditedText": "I found the debate both intriguing and enlightening. I will certainly take on board Mrs Ullrich's guidance on soup making; those close to me will know that I definitely need to take that on board. Perhaps I can assist Mrs Ullrich by drawing out one particularly relevant point in her speech, which is the important role of the agency in giving advice on nutrition. It is important that consumers get good advice about what to eat in order for them to be informed consumers. I am pleased that consensus has broken out across the chamber in this debate. In the spirit of the new politics, about which we talk so much, I am keen to build on that consensus. Having said that, I cannot resist saying a few words about the approach of the members of the SNP to today's debate. Unfortunately, the approach that the SNP has adopted in relation to this issue is all too typical of the one that it adopts on many issues and it is unacceptable. In his opening remarks, Alasdair Morgan said that he wanted to concentrate on the constitutional aspects of the debate. Now that we have a devolved Scottish Parliament, I want to make a genuine appeal to SNP members to stop reducing every issue to sterile, narrow constitutional points, and to start getting on and engaging with the real issues before us. I am delighted that the Parliament is able to take the decision to endorse the establishment of a food standards agency. It would have been nonsense if we had postponed consideration of the issue or if we had asked Westminster to postpone the establishment of the agency or consideration of the bill, simply so that we could adhere to some ideological purity about discussing the matter in the Scottish Parliament at a later date.", "EditedTextHTML": "I found the debate both intriguing and enlightening. I will certainly take on board Mrs Ullrich's guidance on soup making; those close to me will know that I definitely need to take that on board. Perhaps I can assist Mrs Ullrich by drawing out one particularly relevant point in her speech, which is the important role of the agency in giving advice on nutrition. It is important that consumers get good advice about what to eat in order for them to be informed consumers.

I am pleased that consensus has broken out across the chamber in this debate. In the spirit of the new politics, about which we talk so much, I am keen to build on that consensus. Having said that, I cannot resist saying a few words about the approach of the members of the SNP to today's debate. Unfortunately, the approach that the SNP has adopted in relation to this issue is all too typical of the one that it adopts on many issues and it is unacceptable.

In his opening remarks, Alasdair Morgan said that he wanted to concentrate on the constitutional aspects of the debate. Now that we have a devolved Scottish Parliament, I want to make a genuine appeal to SNP members to stop reducing every issue to sterile, narrow constitutional points, and to start getting on and engaging with the real issues before us.

I am delighted that the Parliament is able to take the decision to endorse the establishment of a food standards agency. It would have been nonsense if we had postponed consideration of the issue or if we had asked Westminster to postpone the establishment of the agency or consideration of the bill, simply so that we could adhere to some ideological purity about discussing the matter in the Scottish Parliament at a later

date.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C705297", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolved Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26655, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 127.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 127.0, "ID": 26655, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 219.0, "ContributionID": 705297, "EditedText": "The next section of the debate will be on motion S1M-61, which covers the Financial Services and Markets Bill, the electronic communications bill and the limited liability partnerships bill. Members who want to speak in this debate should press their request buttons as soon as possible. I call Angus Mackay to speak to and to move motion S1M-61.", "EditedTextHTML": "The next section of the debate will be on motion S1M-61, which covers the Financial Services and Markets Bill, the electronic communications bill and the limited liability partnerships bill. Members who want to speak in this debate should press their request buttons as soon as possible. I call Angus Mackay to speak to and to move motion S1M-61.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2108E50P256C705303", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolved Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26655, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 127.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 127.0, "ID": 26655, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macintosh, Ken", "ID": 2108, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Eastwood" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ken Macintosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Kenneth Macintosh (Eastwood) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 235.0, "ContributionID": 705303, "EditedText": "I welcome the minister's explanation of why these measures would clarify Scottish law and benefit Scottish business. In the interests of brevity, I will confine myself to welcoming this opportunity for the Scottish Parliament to show how we see ourselves as part of the devolution process. Many times in the past we have seen that Parliaments have a tendency to accumulate power to themselves. A fear that this Parliament would do that, adding another layer of government, has been widely expressed. It was feared that we would waste time and energy in conflict with Westminster rather than work to the benefit of our communities. If we are to make devolution work for Scotland, we should ensure that we have a creative tension with Westminster. That means being part of a two- way process, give and take. I welcome this chance to show that when it is in the best interests of our country we can give our consent to Westminster considering appropriate legislation. In the 1980s in particular, we saw the dangers and pitfalls of excessive deregulation. We do not want to replace that with excessive over-regulation. The business community in particular has told us how much it wants to avoid unnecessary layers of bureaucracy and duplication of procedures in Holyrood and Westminster—a point that Annabel Goldie made very well. The business community would appreciate—as we all would—clarity in decision-making. Most of all, it would appreciate a level playing field so that it can compete in the internal market that is the United Kingdom. The proposed legislation will help to maintain a level playing field. Our agreeing the motion will also show that the Scottish Parliament appreciates that it does not have a monopoly on power and that sometimes there are other bodies, whether at UK or local authority level, who can take decisions that are in the best interests of the Scottish people. I commend the motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the minister's explanation of why these measures would clarify Scottish law and benefit Scottish business. In the interests of brevity, I will confine myself to welcoming this opportunity for the Scottish Parliament to show how we see ourselves as part of the devolution process.

Many times in the past we have seen that Parliaments have a tendency to accumulate power to themselves. A fear that this Parliament would do that, adding another layer of government, has been widely expressed. It was feared that we would waste time and energy in conflict with Westminster rather than work to the benefit of our communities.

If we are to make devolution work for Scotland, we should ensure that we have a creative tension with Westminster. That means being part of a two- way process, give and take. I welcome this chance to show that when it is in the best interests of our country we can give our consent to Westminster considering appropriate legislation. In the 1980s in particular, we saw the dangers and pitfalls of excessive deregulation. We do not want to replace that with excessive over-regulation.

The business community in particular has told us how much it wants to avoid unnecessary layers of bureaucracy and duplication of procedures in Holyrood and Westminster—a point that Annabel Goldie made very well. The business community would appreciate—as we all would—clarity in decision-making. Most of all, it would appreciate a level playing field so that it can compete in the internal market that is the United Kingdom.

The proposed legislation will help to maintain a level playing field. Our agreeing the motion will also show that the Scottish Parliament appreciates that it does not have a monopoly on power and that sometimes there are other bodies, whether at UK or local authority level, who can take decisions that are in the best interests of the Scottish people. I commend the motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4828182+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2228E151P202C705311", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26656, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 244.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 244.0, "ID": 26656, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McCabe, Tom", "ID": 2228, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Tom McCabe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McCabe: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 254.0, "ContributionID": 705311, "EditedText": "The debate at the Parliamentary Bureau did not mention the words skiving off. It is recognised that it is not a holiday. There was a feeling within the bureau that it would be good to mark that particular day. However, the office of the clerk is open; members are not on holiday and are still able to carry out a variety of their functions. I move,That the Parliament agrees that— (a) the Office of the Clerk should be open on each of the following days: 5 July to 9 July; 12 July to 16 July; 19 July to 23 July; 26 July to 30 July; 2 August to 6 August; 9 August to 13 August; 16 August to 20 August; 23 August to 27 August; 30 August to 3 September; 6 September to 10 September; 13 September to 12.30 pm on 17 September; 21 September to 24 September; 27 September to 1 October; 4 October to 8 October; 11 October to 15 October; 18 October to 22 October; 25 October to 29 October; 1 November to 5 November; 8 November to 12 November; 15 November to 19 November; 22 November to 26 November; 29 November; 1 December to 3 December; 6 December to 10 December; 13 December to 17 December; 20 December to 24 December; 29 December and 30 December 1999; 5 January to 7 January 2000; (b) the autumn recess should begin on 11 October and end on 24 October and the Christmas recess should begin on 20 December 1999 and should end on 9 January 2000 and (c) there will be no meeting of the Parliament or of any committee on 30 November 1999. Decision Time", "EditedTextHTML": "The debate at the Parliamentary Bureau did not mention the words skiving off. It is recognised that it is not a holiday. There was a feeling within the bureau that it would be good to mark that particular day. However, the office of the clerk is open; members are not on holiday and are still able to carry out a variety of their functions.

I move,

That the Parliament agrees that— (a) the Office of the Clerk should be open on each of the following days: 5 July to 9 July; 12 July to 16 July; 19 July to 23 July; 26 July to 30 July; 2 August to 6 August; 9 August to 13 August; 16 August to 20 August; 23 August to 27 August; 30 August to 3 September; 6 September to 10 September; 13 September to 12.30 pm on 17 September; 21 September to 24 September; 27 September to 1 October; 4 October to 8 October; 11 October to 15 October; 18 October to 22 October; 25 October to 29 October; 1

November to 5 November; 8 November to 12 November; 15 November to 19 November; 22 November to 26 November; 29 November; 1 December to 3 December; 6 December to 10 December; 13 December to 17 December; 20 December to 24 December; 29 December and 30 December 1999; 5 January to 7 January 2000; (b) the autumn recess should begin on 11 October and end on 24 October and the Christmas recess should begin on 20 December 1999 and should end on 9 January 2000 and (c) there will be no meeting of the Parliament or of any committee on 30 November 1999. Decision Time

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4828182+00:00" }, { "ID": "C705313", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26656, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 244.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 244.0, "ID": 26656, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 259.0, "ContributionID": 705313, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4828182+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C705314", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26656, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 244.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 244.0, "ID": 26656, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 261.0, "ContributionID": 705314, "EditedText": "There will be a division. Members should vote yes to agree with the motion, no to disagree with the motion and abstain to record an abstention.", "EditedTextHTML": "There will be a division. Members should vote yes to agree with the motion, no to disagree with the motion and abstain to record an abstention.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4828182+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C705321", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26656, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 244.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 244.0, "ID": 26656, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 272.0, "ContributionID": 705321, "EditedText": "There will be a division. Members should vote now. Interruption. Sorry, members should vote now. The result of the division is as follows: For 70, Against 25, Abstentions 1. The third question is, that motion S1M-62, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "There will be a division. Members should vote now. [Interruption.] Sorry, members should vote now.

The result of the division is as follows: For 70, Against 25, Abstentions 1.

The third question is, that motion S1M-62, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4828182+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C705319", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26656, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 244.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 244.0, "ID": 26656, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 268.0, "ContributionID": 705319, "EditedText": "The second question is, that motion S1M-61, in the name of Angus Mackay, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "The second question is, that motion S1M-61, in the name of Angus Mackay, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4828182+00:00" }, { "ID": "C705320", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26656, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 244.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 244.0, "ID": 26656, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 270.0, "ContributionID": 705320, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4828182+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C705324", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26656, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 244.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 244.0, "ID": 26656, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 276.0, "ContributionID": 705324, "EditedText": "The fourth question is, that motion S1M-63, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "The fourth question is, that motion S1M-63, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4828182+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1820E139P227C705330", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26656, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 244.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 244.0, "ID": 26656, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Curran, Margaret", "ID": 1820, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Baillieston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Curran", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Margaret Curran (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 286.0, "ContributionID": 705330, "EditedText": "On a point of order. I am not clear about what is happening. We cannot hear from here.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. I am not clear about what is happening. We cannot hear from here.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4828182+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C705333", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26656, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 244.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 244.0, "ID": 26656, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 291.0, "ContributionID": 705333, "EditedText": "The result is very different: For 82, Against 0, Abstentions 31.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result is very different: For 82, Against 0, Abstentions 31.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4828182+00:00" }, { "ID": "C705337", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Peripheral Route, Aberdeen", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26657, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 295.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 295.0, "ID": 26657, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 298.0, "ContributionID": 705337, "EditedText": "Motion debated,", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion debated,

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4828182+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C705340", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Peripheral Route, Aberdeen", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26657, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 295.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 295.0, "ID": 26657, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 303.0, "ContributionID": 705340, "EditedText": "Nine members have indicated a wish to speak. Not all will be called, but more will be called if interventions are kept brief.", "EditedTextHTML": "Nine members have indicated a wish to speak. Not all will be called, but more will be called if interventions are kept brief.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4828182+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2140E187P335C705345", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Peripheral Route, Aberdeen", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26657, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 295.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 295.0, "ID": 26657, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Rumbles, Mike", "ID": 2140, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Rumbles", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Mike Rumbles (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 316.0, "ContributionID": 705345, "EditedText": "I support the motion. Many good points have been raised, but I would like to add one other major issue. I see this as one element of a larger issue: the process of establishing an integrated transport system in and around Aberdeen. I do not want to add to the special pleading for money from central Government—Brian has already mentioned that this project could cost in the region of £80 million—but the issue of an integrated rail transport system from Inverurie to Stonehaven is extremely important and needs to be addressed at the same time as the western peripheral route. One of the criticisms that might be made of the western peripheral route is that it could generate more traffic, as is the case with many new bypasses and roads. I suggest that a bypass around Aberdeen should have very few interchanges. We have heard the points that have been made about through traffic, from north to south and from south to north. If we restrict the number of interchanges, that will deal with the criticism that the road would only increase traffic. That is an important point. I will keep my contribution short so that other members can take part in the debate.", "EditedTextHTML": "I support the motion. Many good points have been raised, but I would like to add one other major issue. I see this as one element of a larger issue: the process of establishing an integrated transport system in and around Aberdeen. I do not want to add to the special pleading for money from central Government—Brian has already mentioned that this project could cost in the region of £80 million—but the issue of an integrated rail transport system from Inverurie to Stonehaven is extremely important and needs to be addressed at the same time as the western peripheral route.

One of the criticisms that might be made of the western peripheral route is that it could generate more traffic, as is the case with many new bypasses and roads. I suggest that a bypass around Aberdeen should have very few interchanges. We have heard the points that have been made about through traffic, from north to south and from south to north. If we restrict the number of interchanges, that will deal with the criticism that the road would only increase traffic. That is an important point.

I will keep my contribution short so that other members can take part in the debate.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4828182+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1770E82P108C705341", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Peripheral Route, Aberdeen", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26657, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 295.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 295.0, "ID": 26657, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Thomson, Elaine", "ID": 1770, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Thomson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Elaine Thomson (Aberdeen North) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 306.0, "ContributionID": 705341, "EditedText": "I thank Brian, my north-east colleague, for initiating this debate. I am glad that we from the north-east have been able to come together on the issue. Brian raised many relevant points about the western peripheral route round Aberdeen. The route has been long in the planning and the need for it becomes more urgent daily. Aberdeen is Scotland's third city and the oil capital of Europe. Oil-related economic activity in Aberdeen has contributed billions of pounds to UK finances and will continue to do so for some time. As Brian mentioned, there are the traditional industries in the north-east: fishing, agriculture and, in my constituency of Aberdeen North, paper making. Those industries mostly move their goods by road and will continue to do so. The oil and gas industry is in the middle of one of its cyclical downturns, but the price of oil is rising and economic activity is likely to rise next year, which will be accompanied by an increasing volume of traffic. There are environmental problems. Increasing air pollution in Aberdeen city centre affects the health of citizens and the quality of life there is generally reduced because of the heavy volume of traffic. Part of the solution is to encourage people to use buses, walk and cycle or to be more selective about their journeys by car. The other part of the solution is to move the heavy goods traffic out of the city centre altogether, allowing people to go round the city, not through it. The western periphery route has been on the drawing board for a total of almost 50 years. It is included in the 1997 Grampian structure plan and in the Aberdeen city transportation strategy. It is fully supported by Aberdeen City Council and the other partners in the north-east economic development partnership, such as Grampian Enterprise and Aberdeenshire Council. The planned route goes round the city, from the A90 in the south to the A90 in the north. It is a key part of the local transport strategy for Aberdeen and its surrounds. Other parts of the transport strategy—the bus lanes and the park-and-ride scheme—will work best only with the western peripheral route; for example, the park-and-ride schemes are designed to intersect with the western periphery route. My constituents in the Bridge of Don and all those living beside North Anderson Drive and Auchmill are daily suffering the ill effects of living beside heavy traffic or the frustrations that result from congestion when they are driving from one part of the city to another. They live beside or have to travel on roads that are not suitable for use as trunk roads, but which have a high volume of traffic thundering down them every day because they are the only roads available. The roads are not motorways and they are not well separated from housing. Anderson Drive is a dual carriageway on to which houses open and which children cross regularly. Brian mentioned the 17 sets of traffic lights. Those are for the pedestrian crossings along Anderson Drive and are completely inefficient on a trunk route, but necessary because of the proximity of housing and people. That is not to mention some pollution- sick roses down the middle of the carriageway beside Haughigan roundabout. Members may wonder why I am talking about roses, but we Aberdonians are proud of our city and the quality of life there, despite the fact that that quality is increasingly suffering because of the heavy traffic and other transport problems. Many of the city's small country roads are currently used as a peripheral route, but they are totally unsuitable for such use. That has an impact on all local residents. The expansion of the oil and gas industry has led to considerable population growth in Aberdeenshire. Whole new areas of housing have been built, such as at the Bridge of Don, which now forms nearly half of Aberdeen North. That has been accompanied by a huge expansion in economic activity. The current transport infrastructure, particularly the roads, just cannot cope.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank Brian, my north-east colleague, for initiating this debate. I am glad that we from the north-east have been able to come together on the issue. Brian raised many relevant points about the western peripheral route round Aberdeen.

The route has been long in the planning and the need for it becomes more urgent daily. Aberdeen is Scotland's third city and the oil capital of Europe. Oil-related economic activity in Aberdeen has contributed billions of pounds to UK finances and will continue to do so for some time. As Brian mentioned, there are the traditional industries in the north-east: fishing, agriculture and, in my constituency of Aberdeen North, paper making.

Those industries mostly move their goods by road and will continue to do so. The oil and gas industry is in the middle of one of its cyclical downturns, but the price of oil is rising and economic activity is likely to rise next year, which will be accompanied by an increasing volume of traffic.

There are environmental problems. Increasing air pollution in Aberdeen city centre affects the health of citizens and the quality of life there is generally reduced because of the heavy volume of traffic. Part of the solution is to encourage people to use buses, walk and cycle or to be more selective about their journeys by car. The other part of the solution is to move the heavy goods traffic out of the city centre altogether, allowing people to go round the city, not through it.

The western periphery route has been on the drawing board for a total of almost 50 years. It is included in the 1997 Grampian structure plan and in the Aberdeen city transportation strategy. It is fully supported by Aberdeen City Council and the other partners in the north-east economic development partnership, such as Grampian Enterprise and Aberdeenshire Council.

The planned route goes round the city, from the A90 in the south to the A90 in the north. It is a key part of the local transport strategy for Aberdeen and its surrounds. Other parts of the transport strategy—the bus lanes and the park-and-ride scheme—will work best only with the western peripheral route; for example, the park-and-ride schemes are designed to intersect with the western periphery route.

My constituents in the Bridge of Don and all those living beside North Anderson Drive and Auchmill are daily suffering the ill effects of living beside heavy traffic or the frustrations that result from congestion when they are driving from one part of the city to another. They live beside or have to travel on roads that are not suitable for use as trunk roads, but which have a high volume of traffic thundering down them every day because they are the only roads available.

The roads are not motorways and they are not well separated from housing. Anderson Drive is a dual carriageway on to which houses open and which children cross regularly. Brian mentioned the 17 sets of traffic lights. Those are for the pedestrian crossings along Anderson Drive and are completely inefficient on a trunk route, but necessary because of the proximity of housing and people. That is not to mention some pollution- sick roses down the middle of the carriageway beside Haughigan roundabout. Members may wonder why I am talking about roses, but we Aberdonians are proud of our city and the quality of life there, despite the fact that that quality is increasingly suffering because of the heavy traffic and other transport problems.

Many of the city's small country roads are currently used as a peripheral route, but they are totally unsuitable for such use. That has an impact on all local residents. The expansion of the oil and gas industry has led to considerable population growth in Aberdeenshire. Whole new areas of housing have been built, such as at the Bridge of Don, which now forms nearly half of Aberdeen North. That has been accompanied by a huge expansion in economic activity. The current transport infrastructure, particularly the roads, just cannot cope.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4828182+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C705342", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Peripheral Route, Aberdeen", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26657, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 295.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 295.0, "ID": 26657, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 308.0, "ContributionID": 705342, "EditedText": "Wind up, please.", "EditedTextHTML": "Wind up, please.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4828182+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1770E82P108C705343", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Peripheral Route, Aberdeen", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26657, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 295.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 295.0, "ID": 26657, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Thomson, Elaine", "ID": 1770, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Thomson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Elaine Thomson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 310.0, "ContributionID": 705343, "EditedText": "I will.Given the geography of Aberdeen and its hinterland, transport by road will always be necessary, as there will always be areas where public transport is not an easy option. I am delighted that public transport will be given the support that it needs in the forthcoming transport bill, but it must be considered together with roads. I believe that roads, where necessary—and I would say that the western periphery route is necessary—and the other measures in the bill will meet the transport needs of Aberdeen in the next century.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will.

Given the geography of Aberdeen and its hinterland, transport by road will always be necessary, as there will always be areas where public transport is not an easy option. I am delighted that public transport will be given the support that it needs in the forthcoming transport bill, but it must be considered together with roads. I believe that roads, where necessary—and I would say that the western periphery route is necessary—and the other measures in the bill will meet the transport needs of Aberdeen in the next century.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4828182+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1916E38P70C705344", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Peripheral Route, Aberdeen", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26657, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 295.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 295.0, "ID": 26657, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Ben", "ID": 1916, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ben Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ben Wallace (North-East Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 313.0, "ContributionID": 705344, "EditedText": "I live in Alford, not far from one of the proposed routes, and on many occasions I drive through Aberdeen on what has now become a rat-run down the Netherly route. Road safety is one of the problems that would be best solved by a peripheral route. Last year, there were 56 road deaths in Grampian alone, which is a terrifying amount. The lack of a peripheral route contributes towards those accidents. The funding proposals over the past few years have encouraged the wrong solution. I have been to a number of meetings, including those of the Greenwedge in Netherly, at which people have expressed concern about how the council has sought funding because central Government will not provide it. Then planning gain comes into play; for example, Stewart Milne Developments has offered a £12 million planning gain for building a new town. Those things do not work for the benefit of Aberdeenshire and slow up the whole process. I am in favour of the peripheral route. Central funding is needed to expedite the building of the road, as the motion proposes, so that Aberdeenshire can have the services that it deserves. I support the motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "I live in Alford, not far from one of the proposed routes, and on many occasions I drive through Aberdeen on what has now become a rat-run down the Netherly route.

Road safety is one of the problems that would be best solved by a peripheral route. Last year, there were 56 road deaths in Grampian alone, which is a terrifying amount. The lack of a peripheral route contributes towards those accidents.

The funding proposals over the past few years have encouraged the wrong solution. I have been to a number of meetings, including those of the Greenwedge in Netherly, at which people have expressed concern about how the council has sought funding because central Government will not provide it. Then planning gain comes into play; for example, Stewart Milne Developments has offered a £12 million planning gain for building a new town. Those things do not work for the benefit of Aberdeenshire and slow up the whole process.

I am in favour of the peripheral route. Central funding is needed to expedite the building of the road, as the motion proposes, so that Aberdeenshire can have the services that it deserves. I support the motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4828182+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C705349", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Peripheral Route, Aberdeen", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26657, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 295.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 295.0, "ID": 26657, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr David Davidson (North-East Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 326.0, "ContributionID": 705349, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4828182+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1821E295P538C705355", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Peripheral Route, Aberdeen", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26657, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 295.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 295.0, "ID": 26657, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Mrs Margaret", "ID": 1821, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Moray" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Margaret Ewing (Moray) (SNP) rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 338.0, "ContributionID": 705355, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4828182+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1870E181P475C705200", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Wednesday 23 June 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26652, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26652, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robison, Shona", "ID": 1870, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Shona Robison", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Shona Robison: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 9.0, "ContributionID": 705200, "EditedText": "Thank you. Last week I attempted to submit an emergency question on the case of the Chhokar family. You said that it was not an emergency question, Mr Presiding Officer.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you. Last week I attempted to submit an emergency question on the case of the Chhokar family. You said that it was not an emergency question, Mr Presiding Officer.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:00:40.809978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1870E181P475C705198", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Wednesday 23 June 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26652, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26652, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robison, Shona", "ID": 1870, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Shona Robison", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Shona Robison (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 5.0, "ContributionID": 705198, "EditedText": "May I make a point of order?", "EditedTextHTML": "

May I make a point of order?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:00:40.809978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1870E181P475C705202", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Wednesday 23 June 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26652, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26652, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robison, Shona", "ID": 1870, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Shona Robison", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Shona Robison: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 13.0, "ContributionID": 705202, "EditedText": "If I can finish my question my point will become clear. You then suggested that I submit the question as a written question requiring an urgent response. That was fine, but my point of order is to seek clarification on when that urgent response should be given. As yet there has been no response and the chamber office has been attempting to get one. I raise this matter because I could not find anything in the standing orders and I would like some clarification about the time scale for an urgent response.", "EditedTextHTML": "If I can finish my question my point will become clear. You then suggested that I submit the question as a written question requiring an urgent response. That was fine, but my point of order is to seek clarification on when that urgent response should be given. As yet there has been no response and the chamber office has been attempting to get one. I raise this matter because I could not find anything in the standing orders and I would like some clarification about the time scale for an urgent response.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:00:40.809978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1870E181P475C705204", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Wednesday 23 June 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26652, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26652, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robison, Shona", "ID": 1870, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Shona Robison", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Shona Robison: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 17.0, "ContributionID": 705204, "EditedText": "Thank you.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:00:40.809978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C705350", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Peripheral Route, Aberdeen", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26657, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 295.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 295.0, "ID": 26657, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 328.0, "ContributionID": 705350, "EditedText": "No, thank you. My speech is too long for the time available. Two additional services from Edinburgh now also stop in Inverurie. Improvements are coming into place. ScotRail has also made proposals to redevelop the former Guild Street rail freight depot. That is important, because it will provide the opportunity for a major transport interchange, fully integrating rail, bus and coach services, a taxi halt and a car park, all connected by covered walkways. Things are happening in Aberdeen that are important in the context of this debate. We look forward, through the local transport strategy and the bids that will be submitted in the next round of the public transport fund, to further ideas for developing the strategy in Aberdeen.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, thank you. My speech is too long for the time available.

Two additional services from Edinburgh now also stop in Inverurie. Improvements are coming into place. ScotRail has also made proposals to redevelop the former Guild Street rail freight depot. That is important, because it will provide the opportunity for a major transport interchange, fully integrating rail, bus and coach services, a taxi halt and a car park, all connected by covered walkways.

Things are happening in Aberdeen that are important in the context of this debate. We look forward, through the local transport strategy and the bids that will be submitted in the next round of the public transport fund, to further ideas for developing the strategy in Aberdeen.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:13.3570755+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2133E222P520C705223", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Freedom of Information", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26653, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 29.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 29.0, "ID": 26653, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Matheson, Michael", "ID": 2133, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Matheson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Matheson (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 57.0, "ContributionID": 705223, "EditedText": "The minister mentioned consultation. I am sure he is aware that there was extensive consultation on the Westminster bill. Were any organisations in Scotland that have a keen interest in the subject not included in that consultation exercise? The danger of such an open-ended consultation process is that it might delay the introduction of a bill in the Scottish Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "The minister mentioned consultation. I am sure he is aware that there was extensive consultation on the Westminster bill. Were any organisations in Scotland that have a keen interest in the subject not included in that consultation exercise? The danger of such an open-ended consultation process is that it might delay the introduction of a bill in the Scottish Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:31.1569345+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2180E179P471C705351", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Peripheral Route, Aberdeen", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26657, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 295.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 295.0, "ID": 26657, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lochhead, Richard", "ID": 2180, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Lochhead", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Richard Lochhead (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 330.0, "ContributionID": 705351, "EditedText": "Will the minister use the opportunity of her visit to Aberdeen to drive through the city and to encounter at first hand the difficulties experienced by people living in the north-east of Scotland?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister use the opportunity of her visit to Aberdeen to drive through the city and to encounter at first hand the difficulties experienced by people living in the north-east of Scotland?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:44.0221047+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C705197", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Wednesday 23 June 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26652, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26652, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 3.0, "ContributionID": 705197, "EditedText": "Before we move to the first item of business this afternoon I would like to repeat a request from the chair: that any member who wishes to speak on any item of business press the request-to-speak button at the start of that debate, regardless of whether they have put their names on party lists that have been submitted in advance. That will ensure that both the occupant of the chair and the broadcasting staff are fully aware of all requests to speak.", "EditedTextHTML": "Before we move to the first item of business this afternoon I would like to repeat a request from the chair: that any member who wishes to speak on any item of business press the request-to-speak button at the start of that debate, regardless of whether they have put their names on party lists that have been submitted in advance. That will ensure that both the occupant of the chair and the broadcasting staff are fully aware of all requests to speak.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C705199", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Wednesday 23 June 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26652, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26652, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 7.0, "ContributionID": 705199, "EditedText": "Yes, of course.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes, of course.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C705203", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Wednesday 23 June 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26652, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26652, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 15.0, "ContributionID": 705203, "EditedText": "I understand your point and will look into it as soon as I leave the chair in about an hour.", "EditedTextHTML": "I understand your point and will look into it as soon as I leave the chair in about an hour.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C705208", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Wednesday 23 June 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26652, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26652, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan (Glasgow) (SSP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 25.0, "ContributionID": 705208, "EditedText": "This is just a small point of order, Mr Presiding Officer, and it is not, perhaps, as serious as the others. Given the low attendance of Labour members, is there an important meeting that we should be aware of?", "EditedTextHTML": "This is just a small point of order, Mr Presiding Officer, and it is not, perhaps, as serious as the others. Given the low attendance of Labour members, is there an important meeting that we should be aware of?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C705214", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Freedom of Information", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26653, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 29.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 29.0, "ID": 26653, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 39.0, "ContributionID": 705214, "EditedText": "I am grateful to Ms Cunningham for her remarks. On timing, she would be one of the first to criticise the Executive if we said that we are going full steam ahead to legislate without consultation. It has been widely expected of this Parliament that we will consult widely. The UK draft bill will be part of that process, but by no means the sole part. Ms Cunningham is a member of the Justice and Home Affairs Committee, which I hope—with individual members and other people who are interested in the issue—will take an active interest in examining the consultation paper that will be published in the autumn. As I said in my statement, it is a question of striking a balance between ensuring that there is proper and effective consultation and ensuring that we make steady progress. I am not committing myself to a particular time scale, but the fact that we have made a statement today, that a consultation paper will be published after the summer recess, that we are inviting consultation and that we will try to maintain progress and drive this forward, is a sign of good intent and a willingness to consult properly. If there is any issue that requires openness and consultation, surely it is freedom of information. On the strength of the code of conduct, Ms Cunningham is right to say that I said in my statement that this is a continuity of the existing code for rights of access to information. We are not making any secret of that. The code has been redrafted to take account of the fact that we will be different after 1 July. Without it, there would be a gap, and Scotland would be less well served than the rest of the United Kingdom in terms of access to public information. I do not think that anyone here wants that. It is important that, rather than undertaking the almost impossible task of drafting from scratch in a short time, we maintain what is in place and look forward to a statutory regime. That is what is different—we are making a commitment to a statutory freedom of information regime. That takes things forward. Sometimes I fear that the current access code is one of the country's best- kept secrets. Perhaps today's statement and the attendant publicity will mean that people are better informed of what legislation already exists to enable them to get access to information.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful to Ms Cunningham for her remarks. On timing, she would be one of the first to criticise the Executive if we said that we are going full steam ahead to legislate without consultation. It has been widely expected of this Parliament that we will consult widely. The UK draft bill will be part of that process, but by no means the sole part. Ms Cunningham is a member of the Justice and Home Affairs Committee, which I hope—with individual members and other people who are interested in the issue—will take an active interest in examining the consultation paper that will be published in the autumn.

As I said in my statement, it is a question of striking a balance between ensuring that there is proper and effective consultation and ensuring that we make steady progress. I am not committing myself to a particular time scale, but the fact that we have made a statement today, that a consultation paper will be published after the summer recess, that we are inviting consultation and that we will try to maintain progress and drive this forward, is a sign of good intent and a willingness to consult properly. If there is any issue that requires openness and consultation, surely it is freedom of information.

On the strength of the code of conduct, Ms Cunningham is right to say that I said in my statement that this is a continuity of the existing code for rights of access to information. We are not making any secret of that. The code has been redrafted to take account of the fact that we will be

different after 1 July. Without it, there would be a gap, and Scotland would be less well served than the rest of the United Kingdom in terms of access to public information. I do not think that anyone here wants that.

It is important that, rather than undertaking the almost impossible task of drafting from scratch in a short time, we maintain what is in place and look forward to a statutory regime. That is what is different—we are making a commitment to a statutory freedom of information regime. That takes things forward. Sometimes I fear that the current access code is one of the country's best- kept secrets. Perhaps today's statement and the attendant publicity will mean that people are better informed of what legislation already exists to enable them to get access to information.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C705216", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Freedom of Information", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26653, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 29.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 29.0, "ID": 26653, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 43.0, "ContributionID": 705216, "EditedText": "A separate freedom of information regime is part of the devolution settlement. It was first foreshadowed by the white paper and was implemented by one of the orders that we considered only a matter of weeks ago. It was considered appropriate—I believe that it is appropriate—that as a Parliament we devise our own regime to deal with the range of our devolved responsibilities. Only one regime will apply to a particular public body. There might have been some problem if cross-border bodies had tried to operate under two different regimes, but the Westminster regime will apply to them. Requests from the public will be dealt with under whichever regime is applicable. Mr McLetchie pointed out that local government already operates under a statutory access to information regime and that there is dissatisfaction about its effectiveness. I am sure that it could be examined as part of the consultation process. The health service has different arrangements. Examining the effectiveness of other current statutory regimes and codes would be a very helpful part of the consultation exercise.", "EditedTextHTML": "A separate freedom of information regime is part of the devolution settlement. It was first foreshadowed by the white paper and was implemented by one of the orders that we considered only a matter of weeks ago. It was considered appropriate—I believe that it is appropriate—that as a Parliament we devise our own regime to deal with the range of our devolved responsibilities.

Only one regime will apply to a particular public body. There might have been some problem if cross-border bodies had tried to operate under two different regimes, but the Westminster regime will apply to them. Requests from the public will be dealt with under whichever regime is applicable.

Mr McLetchie pointed out that local government already operates under a statutory access to information regime and that there is dissatisfaction about its effectiveness. I am sure that it could be examined as part of the consultation process. The health service has different arrangements. Examining the effectiveness of other current statutory regimes and codes would be a very helpful part of the consultation exercise.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C705220", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Freedom of Information", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26653, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 29.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 29.0, "ID": 26653, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 51.0, "ContributionID": 705220, "EditedText": "That will be a key part of the consultation. Mr Robson will note that the harm test features fairly prominently in the code. It is also important to note that whether the test of harm or of prejudice is used, the overriding test is one of the public interest. Members will see that part II of the code, which deals with reasons for confidentiality, states that \"the presumption remains that information should be disclosed unless the harm likely to arise from disclosure would outweigh the public interest in making the information available.\" Openness is the presumption and the ultimate test is that of public interest.", "EditedTextHTML": "That will be a key part of the consultation. Mr Robson will note that the harm test features fairly prominently in the code. It is also important to note that whether the test of harm or of prejudice is used, the overriding test is one of the public interest. Members will see that part II of the code, which deals with reasons for confidentiality, states that

\"the presumption remains that information should be disclosed unless the harm likely to arise from disclosure would outweigh the public interest in making the information available.\"

Openness is the presumption and the ultimate test is that of public interest.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2185E120P328C705227", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Freedom of Information", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26653, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 29.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 29.0, "ID": 26653, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Brown, Robert", "ID": 2185, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robert Brown", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robert Brown (Glasgow) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 65.0, "ContributionID": 705227, "EditedText": "I welcome the minister's speedy statement and would like to ask two questions. First, are the hospital boards and hospital trusts in Scotland among those to whom he has written? Secondly, will the freedom of information regime include not just information, but specific documents that can be recovered from the various public authorities that have been referred to?", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the minister's speedy statement and would like to ask two questions. First, are the hospital boards and hospital trusts in Scotland among those to whom he has written? Secondly, will the freedom of information regime include not just information, but specific documents that can be recovered from the various public authorities that have been referred to?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2099E29P51C705231", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Freedom of Information", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26653, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 29.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 29.0, "ID": 26653, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Young, John", "ID": 2099, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Young", "SpeakerDisplayName": "John Young (West of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 73.0, "ContributionID": 705231, "EditedText": "My first question to the Deputy First Minister concerns the code of conduct as a significant advance in public access to information. Will it apply equally to information on BSE and genetically modified foods, or are those areas the preserve of the UK Parliament? My second question is this: if a dispute were to arise between the UK and Scottish Parliaments over what information should be released, will some form of arbiter or group be appointed to adjudicate? I accept that it is unlikely that such a difference will arise, but it is not impossible. I would also like to know whether the Deputy First Minister believes that what he is proposing is in some ways inferior to what Mr Jack Straw, the Home Secretary, is proposing. Does he, as a lawyer, think that if there are differences, people may come from south of the border to the Scottish courts, and vice versa? My last point has been raised many times over the years. I fought the election on 6 May for the constituency in which Rudolf Hess landed 58 years ago. Some local historians still feel that there are papers concerning the flight of Rudolf Hess that are being retained into the 21st century. Will access to that information be dealt with by the Scottish Parliament or will the UK Government again remain supreme?", "EditedTextHTML": "My first question to the Deputy First Minister concerns the code of conduct as a significant advance in public access to information. Will it apply equally to information on BSE and genetically modified foods, or are those areas the preserve of the UK Parliament?

My second question is this: if a dispute were to arise between the UK and Scottish Parliaments over what information should be released, will some form of arbiter or group be appointed to adjudicate? I accept that it is unlikely that such a difference will arise, but it is not impossible.

I would also like to know whether the Deputy First Minister believes that what he is proposing is in some ways inferior to what Mr Jack Straw, the Home Secretary, is proposing. Does he, as a lawyer, think that if there are differences, people may come from south of the border to the Scottish courts, and vice versa?

My last point has been raised many times over the years. I fought the election on 6 May for the constituency in which Rudolf Hess landed 58 years ago. Some local historians still feel that there are papers concerning the flight of Rudolf Hess that are being retained into the 21st century. Will access to that information be dealt with by the Scottish Parliament or will the UK Government again remain supreme?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C705235", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Education Bill (Consultation)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26654, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 81.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 81.0, "ID": 26654, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 82.0, "ContributionID": 705235, "EditedText": "I remind all members who have not inserted their cards in the microphone unit in front of them that they do not exist until they have done so. We now move on to a statement by the Minister for Children and Education. The procedure will be the same as before: a statement followed by questions. I am ready to call Mr Galbraith, but I gather that he is waiting for the furniture remover. While we wait, it might be useful for members to know that lecterns that are more removable than the one that is shared at present will be made available. Please put your card in the slot, minister. Laughter. A credit card will not do.", "EditedTextHTML": "I remind all members who have not inserted their cards in the microphone unit in front of them that they do not exist until they have done so.

We now move on to a statement by the Minister for Children and Education. The procedure will be the same as before: a statement followed by questions.

I am ready to call Mr Galbraith, but I gather that he is waiting for the furniture remover. While we wait, it might be useful for members to know that lecterns that are more removable than the one that is shared at present will be made available.

Please put your card in the slot, minister. [Laughter.] A credit card will not do.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C705236", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Education Bill (Consultation)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26654, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 81.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 81.0, "ID": 26654, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Children and Education (Mr Sam Galbraith): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 85.0, "ContributionID": 705236, "EditedText": "I would like to make a statement on the procedures that will be adopted to ensure that there is full public consultation on our proposals in the forthcoming education improvement bill. I intend to launch the consultation during the first week of July. I should make it clear first that I will not be giving full details of our proposals at this stage; those will come later. I am making this statement for two reasons: first, the consultation document setting out our proposals can be launched only shortly after the Parliament rises for the summer recess and I felt that, out of courtesy, I should give Parliament the details of the consultation process that will follow. Secondly, I want to make clear the nature of the general process, as this consultation will be the first to launch a bill to be put before this Parliament. I do not expect that we will follow exactly the same procedure for every bill put forward by this Administration, but the approach that we take for the education bill will serve as a general template. Before that, however, let me say briefly why we intend to legislate on education. The Scottish Executive is committed to an agenda of continuous improvement that will progressively raise standards in education. It will build on the groundwork laid by the United Kingdom Government since the 1997 election, with the aim of delivering a world-class system with world-class standards. This Parliament should not make the mistake of thinking that legislation on its own can deliver higher standards, nor should we suggest that continuous improvement will start only once we have legislated. In recent weeks, I have met many teachers, parents, pupils and others involved in the school system. Their commitment to excellence stands out and they tell me that it is an exciting time to be in education. We have already achieved a great deal through the significant additional resources that are now being made available to schools. Those resources are targeted on activities that make a difference to children's and teachers' experience and which directly support improvement. Pre-school provision for all three and four-year-olds, 5,000 additional classroom assistants, smaller class sizes, and early intervention to support better literacy and numeracy in the primary school, add up to a package that gives children a much better start at school. The excellence fund is reaching all parts of the school system in other ways: for example, by supporting alternatives to exclusion. New community schools, training and staff development and the delivery of modern information technology to all our schools will make a major difference. We are delivering better education in better schools. We also want to support and develop our teachers, strengthening their skills and professionalism. I want to pay tribute to their commitment. MEMBERS: \"Hear, hear.\" I recognise very well the pressures on teachers and their feeling that they are undervalued. However, we all know that a world-class education system will not happen without them and that their expertise is already delivering huge improvements. We want those improvements to be continuous and to extend throughout the school system in Scotland through the sharing of best practice, using it to raise standards. Her Majesty's inspectors' reports show how that is already happening; how school after school is delivering a high and rising quality of education for its pupils. Our aim in legislating is to consolidate and build on the momentum that is already under way. It is to provide a framework through which Government, local authorities, teachers, parents and children can work in partnership to secure improvement and to achieve and celebrate excellence. That requires an education service that is guided by shared priorities and is responsive to local circumstances and to the needs of children. We need to meet the challenge to help those who still need to achieve the standards of the very best. I believe that we can do that with a few simple measures that will strengthen the culture of improvement and make clear the responsibility of all those in the education system for taking them forward. That means that those who support, fund and direct schools must also be encouraged to continue developing the culture of excellence. We often speak of the partnership of schools, local authorities and Government as a strength of Scottish education. I believe in that partnership and that each of the partners must pull its weight. That means that we ourselves, the Scottish Ministers and the local authorities should be provided with a clear statement of our responsibilities for delivering improvement. The measures that we will bring forward will create a new partnership between central and local government, and between authorities and schools, to raise standards and to target and celebrate excellence. None of us—schools, parents, authorities or this Parliament—should be prepared to accept second best for our children when we see what the best can achieve. This bill is about achieving the best. It will be a framework for partnership. Our approach to the preparation of the bill is designed to reflect that. The first principle adopted by the cross-party consultative steering group was that power should be shared between the Parliament, the Executive and the people of Scotland. We have the chance to make that a reality in our approach to this legislation. The people of Scotland will, therefore, have an unprecedented opportunity to express their views on our proposals before the bill is finally presented to this Parliament. Education interests and the general public have already had a substantial opportunity to comment on the basis of the proposals that were set out in the UK Government's white paper \"Targeting Excellence\", which was published in January. The detailed plans for legislation will take into account the many comments that were made on the white paper. The next step is to set out the details of the proposals for legislation in a consultative document to be published early in July. That will set out and explain the draft provisions and the policy behind them. I can assure this Parliament that the document will be made widely available. We are all stakeholders in the education system and our approach to consultation will be designed to ensure that our proposals are considered by as many people as possible. The document, therefore, will be sent to local authorities, schools, school boards and a wide range of organisations with an interest in children and schools. A summary of the main elements will also be published and made available on request. The consultation document will be made available on the internet. That will allow many more people to have access to it, to comment and to see what others have said about the bill. I am particularly concerned that the consultation should go beyond the normal range of interests, and that many parents and pupils are involved. Pupils who have access to the internet through the national grid for learning will have an excellent opportunity to get involved in the debates, and we shall be ready to take their views into account. I consider that young people's views about schools should be listened to. The consultation will also give them an early opportunity to learn about the processes and procedures of the new Parliament. The consultation will continue until the end of October to give plenty people plenty of time to comment after the schools are back. Peter Peacock and I want to meet as many people as possible to hear their views, and we will want to take part in a series of meetings throughout Scotland. I hope that the outcome of the process will be a bill that the widest spectrum of people agree reflects the best way forward for Scottish education. It will take account of the knowledge and experience of those who are directly involved as providers and consumers of school education. Parliament can then be confident that our proposals are soundly based and will make a real difference to the education of our children. At the end of October, the bill will be revised as necessary to take into account the consultations and to make any technical changes needed to refine the drafting. Once that has happened it will be passed to the Parliament, which will, as a first step, put it to the Education, Culture and Sport Committee. The committee will comment on the approach taken in the bill, and in particular on how good the consultation has been. It will report to Parliament on whether the bill should be approved in principle. If the report is favourable, the bill will go through three stages: a debate and vote on the key principles, detailed consideration in committee, and a debate and final vote on the bill with the amendments accepted by the education committee. We will not deliver a world-class education system overnight, and we must always remember that it is schools, teachers, pupils and their parents working together who will achieve the highest standards. I believe, however, that establishing a clear framework of duties and responsibilities will allow us to focus more closely on the action needed to achieve such a system. Our bill, developed with the help and participation of our partners in the education system and the Scottish people, is an opportunity to do that. It will also set a new standard in consultation that I hope this Parliament will welcome. I commend it to the Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "I would like to make a statement on the procedures that will be adopted to ensure that there is full public consultation on our proposals in the forthcoming education improvement bill. I intend to launch the consultation during the first week of July.

I should make it clear first that I will not be giving full details of our proposals at this stage; those will come later. I am making this statement for two reasons: first, the consultation document setting out our proposals can be launched only shortly after the Parliament rises for the summer recess and I felt that, out of courtesy, I should give Parliament the details of the consultation process that will follow. Secondly, I want to make clear the nature of the general process, as this consultation will be the first to launch a bill to be put before this Parliament. I do not expect that we will follow exactly the same procedure for every bill put forward by this Administration, but the approach that we take for the education bill will serve as a general template.

Before that, however, let me say briefly why we intend to legislate on education. The Scottish Executive is committed to an agenda of continuous improvement that will progressively raise standards in education. It will build on the groundwork laid by the United Kingdom Government since the 1997 election, with the aim of delivering a world-class system with world-class standards.

This Parliament should not make the mistake of thinking that legislation on its own can deliver higher standards, nor should we suggest that continuous improvement will start only once we have legislated. In recent weeks, I have met many teachers, parents, pupils and others involved in the school system. Their commitment to excellence stands out and they tell me that it is an exciting time to be in education.

We have already achieved a great deal through the significant additional resources that are now being made available to schools. Those resources are targeted on activities that make a difference to children's and teachers' experience and which directly support improvement. Pre-school provision for all three and four-year-olds, 5,000 additional classroom assistants, smaller class sizes, and early intervention to support better literacy and numeracy in the primary school, add up to a package that gives children a much better start at school.

The excellence fund is reaching all parts of the school system in other ways: for example, by supporting alternatives to exclusion. New community schools, training and staff development and the delivery of modern information technology to all our schools will make a major difference. We are delivering better education in better schools.

We also want to support and develop our teachers, strengthening their skills and professionalism. I want to pay tribute to their commitment. [MEMBERS: \"Hear, hear.\"] I recognise very well the pressures on teachers and their feeling that they are undervalued. However, we all know that a world-class education system will not happen without them and that their expertise is already delivering huge improvements. We want those improvements to be continuous and to extend throughout the school system in Scotland through the sharing of best practice, using it to raise standards. Her Majesty's inspectors' reports show how that is already happening; how school after school is delivering a high and rising quality of education for its pupils.

Our aim in legislating is to consolidate and build on the momentum that is already under way. It is to provide a framework through which Government, local authorities, teachers, parents and children can work in partnership to secure improvement and to achieve and celebrate excellence. That requires an education service that is guided by shared priorities and is responsive to local circumstances and to the needs of children. We need to meet the challenge to help those who still need to achieve the standards of the very best. I believe that we can do that with a few simple measures that will strengthen the culture of improvement and make clear the responsibility of all those in the education system for taking them forward.

That means that those who support, fund and direct schools must also be encouraged to continue developing the culture of excellence. We often speak of the partnership of schools, local authorities and Government as a strength of

Scottish education. I believe in that partnership and that each of the partners must pull its weight. That means that we ourselves, the Scottish Ministers and the local authorities should be provided with a clear statement of our responsibilities for delivering improvement.

The measures that we will bring forward will create a new partnership between central and local government, and between authorities and schools, to raise standards and to target and celebrate excellence. None of us—schools, parents, authorities or this Parliament—should be prepared to accept second best for our children when we see what the best can achieve. This bill is about achieving the best. It will be a framework for partnership. Our approach to the preparation of the bill is designed to reflect that. The first principle adopted by the cross-party consultative steering group was that power should be shared between the Parliament, the Executive and the people of Scotland. We have the chance to make that a reality in our approach to this legislation. The people of Scotland will, therefore, have an unprecedented opportunity to express their views on our proposals before the bill is finally presented to this Parliament.

Education interests and the general public have already had a substantial opportunity to comment on the basis of the proposals that were set out in the UK Government's white paper \"Targeting Excellence\", which was published in January. The detailed plans for legislation will take into account the many comments that were made on the white paper.

The next step is to set out the details of the proposals for legislation in a consultative document to be published early in July. That will set out and explain the draft provisions and the policy behind them. I can assure this Parliament that the document will be made widely available. We are all stakeholders in the education system and our approach to consultation will be designed to ensure that our proposals are considered by as many people as possible. The document, therefore, will be sent to local authorities, schools, school boards and a wide range of organisations with an interest in children and schools. A summary of the main elements will also be published and made available on request. The consultation document will be made available on the internet. That will allow many more people to have access to it, to comment and to see what others have said about the bill.

I am particularly concerned that the consultation should go beyond the normal range of interests, and that many parents and pupils are involved. Pupils who have access to the internet through the national grid for learning will have an excellent opportunity to get involved in the debates, and we shall be ready to take their views into account. I consider that young people's views about schools should be listened to. The consultation will also give them an early opportunity to learn about the processes and procedures of the new Parliament. The consultation will continue until the end of October to give plenty people plenty of time to comment after the schools are back. Peter Peacock and I want to meet as many people as possible to hear their views, and we will want to take part in a series of meetings throughout Scotland.

I hope that the outcome of the process will be a bill that the widest spectrum of people agree reflects the best way forward for Scottish education. It will take account of the knowledge and experience of those who are directly involved as providers and consumers of school education. Parliament can then be confident that our proposals are soundly based and will make a real difference to the education of our children.

At the end of October, the bill will be revised as necessary to take into account the consultations and to make any technical changes needed to refine the drafting. Once that has happened it will be passed to the Parliament, which will, as a first step, put it to the Education, Culture and Sport Committee. The committee will comment on the approach taken in the bill, and in particular on how good the consultation has been. It will report to Parliament on whether the bill should be approved in principle. If the report is favourable, the bill will go through three stages: a debate and vote on the key principles, detailed consideration in committee, and a debate and final vote on the bill with the amendments accepted by the education committee.

We will not deliver a world-class education system overnight, and we must always remember that it is schools, teachers, pupils and their parents working together who will achieve the highest standards. I believe, however, that establishing a clear framework of duties and responsibilities will allow us to focus more closely on the action needed to achieve such a system. Our bill, developed with the help and participation of our partners in the education system and the Scottish people, is an opportunity to do that. It will also set a new standard in consultation that I hope this Parliament will welcome. I commend it to the Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2068E171P304C705243", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Education Bill (Consultation)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26654, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 81.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 81.0, "ID": 26654, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stone, Jamie", "ID": 2068, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie Stone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 99.0, "ContributionID": 705243, "EditedText": "I welcome the minister's statements. I echo his response to Mr Monteith that we do not want to rush the process. In the past, legislation has been introduced too quickly, and on an issue as important as our children's education, we must take a careful approach. In the past, glossy documentation has been thrown at school boards. I have been a member of a school board for some years and have seen that happen. Teachers have said to me, \"Do not rush this; do not make change for its own sake. Let us see our way through this issue.\" They think that things are happening too fast. I would like to know the minister's thoughts on publications being produced which school boards can understand and have the time to read and respond to. The Westminster Government's innovation in introducing the scheme whereby two community schools were to be put into each local authority area was warmly welcomed across the political spectrum. In Highland, where Mr Peacock and myself were formerly councillors, we fairly rubbed our hands with glee when we saw that. I want to make a plea for community schools, as it strikes me that the minister is absolutely right on that point and that it is the way forward. What plans might he have, which he could reveal to us today, to build on the scheme of two schools per authority and to take it further? To help him with his answer, it does not necessarily cost money, as cash can be accessed from a variety of sources to establish such institutions. I would welcome the minister's thoughts on the matter.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the minister's statements. I echo his response to Mr Monteith that we do not want to rush the process. In the past, legislation has been introduced too quickly, and on an issue as important as our children's education, we must take a careful approach.

In the past, glossy documentation has been thrown at school boards. I have been a member of a school board for some years and have seen that happen. Teachers have said to me, \"Do not rush this; do not make change for its own sake. Let us see our way through this issue.\" They think that things are happening too fast. I would like to know the minister's thoughts on publications being produced which school boards can understand and have the time to read and respond to.

The Westminster Government's innovation in introducing the scheme whereby two community schools were to be put into each local authority area was warmly welcomed across the political spectrum. In Highland, where Mr Peacock and myself were formerly councillors, we fairly rubbed our hands with glee when we saw that.

I want to make a plea for community schools, as it strikes me that the minister is absolutely right on that point and that it is the way forward. What plans might he have, which he could reveal to us today, to build on the scheme of two schools per authority and to take it further? To help him with his answer, it does not necessarily cost money, as cash can be accessed from a variety of sources to establish such institutions. I would welcome the minister's thoughts on the matter.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C705244", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Education Bill (Consultation)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26654, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 81.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 81.0, "ID": 26654, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Galbraith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 101.0, "ContributionID": 705244, "EditedText": "I like those who ask me questions and help me with the answers. I hope that it is a precedent, as it would be great if it were followed.", "EditedTextHTML": "I like those who ask me questions and help me with the answers. I hope that it is a precedent, as it would be great if it were followed.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2068E171P304C705245", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Education Bill (Consultation)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26654, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 81.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 81.0, "ID": 26654, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stone, Jamie", "ID": 2068, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie Stone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Stone: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 103.0, "ContributionID": 705245, "EditedText": "I am kind like that.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am kind like that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C705248", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Education Bill (Consultation)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26654, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 81.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 81.0, "ID": 26654, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Galbraith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 109.0, "ContributionID": 705248, "EditedText": "I can kill two birds with one stone when I talk to Fiona, as not only is she an MSP, but she is one of my constituents, so she is. Therefore, I will take her questions as if they were from both. The publication of the document is a physical, practical exercise in writing, consulting, putting the words down and getting the document printed. Time constraints are involved, and there is nothing more to it than that. I take to heart Fiona's point about consulting youth, and I am determined to do that. I will take on board her comments about youth forums, which is a good suggestion. I hope that, when the document is sent to schools, it will also be sent to the pupil councils. As far as the Scottish Youth Parliament is concerned, I will be attending the meeting on 30 June as an MSP in order to discuss the document. I am grateful to her, and I will take all her points on board.", "EditedTextHTML": "I can kill two birds with one stone when I talk to Fiona, as not only is she an MSP, but she is one of my constituents, so she is. Therefore, I will take her questions as if they were from both.

The publication of the document is a physical, practical exercise in writing, consulting, putting the words down and getting the document printed. Time constraints are involved, and there is nothing more to it than that.

I take to heart Fiona's point about consulting youth, and I am determined to do that. I will take on board her comments about youth forums, which is a good suggestion. I hope that, when the document is sent to schools, it will also be sent to the pupil councils. As far as the Scottish Youth Parliament is concerned, I will be attending the meeting on 30 June as an MSP in order to discuss the document. I am grateful to her, and I will take all her points on board.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C705249", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Education Bill (Consultation)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26654, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 81.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 81.0, "ID": 26654, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan (Glasgow) (SSP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 111.0, "ContributionID": 705249, "EditedText": "Does the minister agree that the pupil-teacher ratio in the state sector is one of the major concerns in Scotland? Will the consultative document include the visionary setting of targets, to move state schools closer to the pupil-teacher ratios of private schools? I recently read a report which said that Eton College—the most exclusive of British private schools—had a pupil-teacher ratio of 8:1. That can be compared to Drumchapel High School in the First Minister's constituency, where the pupil- teacher ratio is 30:1. When class sizes are in the high 20s or even in the 30s, the issue of teaching is sometimes surpassed by that of management and control. Will the minister give us information about lowering secondary school class sizes to a maximum of 20 pupils per class by the end of the first Parliament?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the minister agree that the pupil-teacher ratio in the state sector is one of the major concerns in Scotland? Will the consultative document include the visionary setting of targets, to move state schools closer to the pupil-teacher ratios of private schools?

I recently read a report which said that Eton College—the most exclusive of British private schools—had a pupil-teacher ratio of 8:1. That can be compared to Drumchapel High School in the First Minister's constituency, where the pupil- teacher ratio is 30:1. When class sizes are in the high 20s or even in the 30s, the issue of teaching is sometimes surpassed by that of management and control. Will the minister give us information about lowering secondary school class sizes to a maximum of 20 pupils per class by the end of the first Parliament?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C705251", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Education Bill (Consultation)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26654, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 81.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 81.0, "ID": 26654, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 115.0, "ContributionID": 705251, "EditedText": "I will take one last question if it is very brief.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will take one last question if it is very brief.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2234E7P20C705252", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Education Bill (Consultation)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26654, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 81.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 81.0, "ID": 26654, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Aitken, Bill", "ID": 2234, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bill Aitken", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bill Aitken (Glasgow) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 117.0, "ContributionID": 705252, "EditedText": "I recognise both the minister's commitment to world-class education and the amount of resources made available by his predecessor at Westminster. I trust that he recognises that, year in, year out, the Conservative Government consistently made better provision for education. Does he agree that the major problem facing Scottish education has been the failure of local authorities to deliver over a lengthy period? Which sanctions, methods of persuasion or encouragement will he introduce to ensure that local government gives us the performance that our children deserve?", "EditedTextHTML": "I recognise both the minister's commitment to world-class education and the amount of resources made available by his predecessor at Westminster. I trust that he recognises that, year in, year out, the Conservative Government consistently made better provision for education. Does he agree that the major problem facing Scottish education has been the failure of local authorities to deliver over a lengthy period? Which sanctions, methods of persuasion or encouragement will he introduce to ensure that local government gives us the performance that our children deserve?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C705253", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Education Bill (Consultation)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26654, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 81.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 81.0, "ID": 26654, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Galbraith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 119.0, "ContributionID": 705253, "EditedText": "Mr Aitken will not be surprised to learn that I do not agree with all that he says. Can we please put a stop to such language as sanctions, bludgeons and attacks, and to driving wedges between us and education authorities?", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Aitken will not be surprised to learn that I do not agree with all that he says. Can we please put a stop to such language as sanctions, bludgeons and attacks, and to driving wedges between us and education authorities?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C705256", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Education Bill (Consultation)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26654, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 81.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 81.0, "ID": 26654, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 125.0, "ContributionID": 705256, "EditedText": "That concludes the questions and answers on the statement on consultation on the education bill.", "EditedTextHTML": "That concludes the questions and answers on the statement on consultation on the education bill.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2123E103P242C705267", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolved Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26655, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 127.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 127.0, "ID": 26655, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Chisholm, Malcolm", "ID": 2123, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh North and Leith" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Malcolm Chisholm", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 150.0, "ContributionID": 705267, "EditedText": "Do not clauses 32 and 33 of the Food Standards Bill make it perfectly clear that we can opt out at any point in the future, if we so wish? Mr Morgan's points are therefore not at all well founded.", "EditedTextHTML": "Do not clauses 32 and 33 of the Food Standards Bill make it perfectly clear that we can opt out at any point in the future, if we so wish? Mr Morgan's points are therefore not at all well founded.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1888E265P358C705268", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolved Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26655, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 127.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 127.0, "ID": 26655, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morgan, Alasdair", "ID": 1888, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Galloway and Upper Nithsdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morgan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alasdair Morgan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 152.0, "ContributionID": 705268, "EditedText": "A similar point came up before and I said that it is always easier to get things on to the statute book than to get them off, especially given the mechanisms for bringing a bill before this Parliament, which lie with the Administration. Westminster should take a self- denying ordinance not to legislate on devolved matters. My objections are not only constitutional. If we had our own food standards agency, not only could we could locate its headquarters in the north-east or even in Galloway—I will leave that obvious suggestion aside, although some members may be interested in it—but we could envisage higher or different standards. That would enhance our reputation for high-quality produce, which I mentioned earlier and on which Scotland rightly prides itself. Moreover, although one would not realise it from reading the bill, the Meat Hygiene Service will be part of the food standards agency—that fact is alluded to only in the explanatory notes. Many of our abattoirs are in danger of going out of business because of Meat Hygiene Service charges. Suppose the Scottish Parliament wanted to abolish such charges. I do not think that, under the present arrangements, it could. The Scotland Act 1998 gave us a job to do. Let us start doing it 100 per cent by recognising that devolution is our responsibility.", "EditedTextHTML": "A similar point came up before and I said that it is always easier to get things on to the statute book than to get them off, especially given the mechanisms for bringing a bill before this Parliament, which lie with the Administration. Westminster should take a self- denying ordinance not to legislate on devolved matters.

My objections are not only constitutional. If we had our own food standards agency, not only could we could locate its headquarters in the north-east or even in Galloway—I will leave that obvious suggestion aside, although some members may be interested in it—but we could envisage higher or different standards. That would enhance our reputation for high-quality produce, which I mentioned earlier and on which Scotland rightly prides itself.

Moreover, although one would not realise it from reading the bill, the Meat Hygiene Service will be part of the food standards agency—that fact is alluded to only in the explanatory notes. Many of our abattoirs are in danger of going out of business because of Meat Hygiene Service charges. Suppose the Scottish Parliament wanted to abolish such charges. I do not think that, under the present arrangements, it could.

The Scotland Act 1998 gave us a job to do. Let us start doing it 100 per cent by recognising that devolution is our responsibility.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C705258", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolved Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26655, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 127.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 127.0, "ID": 26655, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 131.0, "ContributionID": 705258, "EditedText": "I am very pleased that one of my early outings in this chamber is on the issue of food safety. It is a very important issue with a particular resonance in Scotland, and it is right for this Parliament to discuss it at an early stage. The motion seeks this Parliament's approval for the creation of a UK food standards agency, within which are embodied specific provisions for Scotland. The draft bill currently before the Westminster Parliament is the product of extensive consultation and pre-legislative scrutiny. This is our opportunity to endorse its provisions. I want to outline some of the main elements of the proposed food standards agency. I also want to set out some of the guiding principles on food safety that the Executive will follow—now and in the future. I state from the outset that the Executive recognises the public's legitimate concerns about food safety. We are determined to play our part to ensure that those concerns are addressed effectively and responsibly. We want to put arrangements in place that have the best chance of success—the best chance of reducing food poisoning outbreaks, the best chance of improving hygiene standards and the best chance of re-establishing consumer confidence—and I firmly believe that the proposals before us today give us the opportunity to make a start on that. The proposed agency represents a significant and bold step towards rebuilding consumer confidence in the safety of our food. People are concerned about food safety for good reason— nowhere is that more true than here in Scotland. In the 1980s and 1990s, a catalogue of failure produced the BSE crisis and the appalling tragedy of the Lanarkshire E coli outbreak. It is our responsibility in the Scottish Parliament to do all that we can to reduce the chances of such events occurring again. Public confidence has badly faltered. It is not enough to issue reassuring statements to a sceptical public; we have to act and be seen to act to improve food standards. We have to show the public that their interests are genuinely at the heart of food safety decision making. We also have to help educate and inform the public on what they can do to ensure that their food is safe to eat. Creating a new food standards agency is a bold and innovative step to depoliticise food, to further sensible discussion of related matters and to move away from the highly charged and emotive arena of tabloid headlines, of which we have seen so many in recent weeks and months. The Scottish Executive wants a reasonable, responsible, informed and open approach to food safety issues in Scotland. We want Scotland's future food safety policy to be based on the best available expertise and to be anchored in sound scientific advice—the best available. We also want to ensure that that policy is transparent and clearly explained, not in scientific jargon but in terms that are easily understandable to the person in the street. That is our aim in supporting the creation of the new food standards agency. We want it to make its assessment from the standpoint of the best available science; contain people who are skilled in risk management and risk communication; have an open, transparent approach; and be headed by a board that is selected through open recruitment, subject to Nolan committee rules, drawing together experience, knowledge and skills in what is a complex and important area. We also want it to have increased powers to undertake monitoring and surveillance and an enhanced enforcement capability. It will, of course, still be for us as politicians and policy makers to decide how to act, but we will be doing that from an informed position, with access to expert advice and in a spirit of openness. The agency will publish the advice that it gives to ministers—advice that we can choose to accept or reject. We will then be expected to explain publicly why we have reached our decision. That is as it should be. We are doing all this because the public expect—rightly—that those responsible for maintaining food safety put the protection of public health first. The prize to be won is primarily for consumers: the promise of greater assurance over food safety. That is right, but there is also a prize to be wonfor food producers, processors and manufacturers. Scotland produces high-quality food products and exports to countries throughout the world. If our food industries are to build, retain or regain markets, they must operate from a position where consumers have confidence in the safety of their food and where we have sound food safety policy. For more than a decade, there have been food scares. All too often we have seen well-intentioned interventions, from experts and others, result in contradictory advice, perplexity and confusion. We must break through that. That is why we need a body that can speak authoritatively and give expert advice to the public, to industry, to consumers, to enforcers and to us as policy makers. Such a body will be a crucial component in driving up food standards. Responsible, informed debate and keeping consumer interests at heart are our guiding principles for the development of food safety and standards policy. As the Scottish Executive, that is what we aim to achieve. We must consider how best to deliver change and what mechanisms will work best to further the interests of the people of Scotland. Food is a devolved area. The proposed UK agency provides flexible arrangements for specific action to be taken in Scotland should the circumstances require it. The proposals provide the benefits of flexibility and room for manoeuvre in Scotland, coupled with the consistency and clarity brought by UK-wide arrangements. Food problems do not recognise borders. Food emergencies can quickly spill over from Jedburgh to Carlisle, and in the other direction. An important European dimension should be borne in mind. Food law is voluminous, complex and much of it is EU-derived. One of the key issues for us is to ensure that legal requirements are translated clearly and consistently to provide the basis for efficient and effective enforcement by, for example, local authorities and the Meat Hygiene Service. Again, the consistency of approach that can be provided by a UK-wide body underpins that principle. A large task lies ahead. We now have a significant opportunity to make an impact on this problem and to make a difference in Scotland. This bill gives us the right arrangements for Scotland: a separate Scottish arm for the agency and a new independent Scottish food advisory committee to advise on food safety issues in Scotland. The agency will be accountable to the Scottish Parliament in the same way as it is accountable to Westminster. Through a range of joint decision-making powers and arrangements, that will ensure that Scotland's voice is properly heard. The proposed arrangements offer Scotland the best of both worlds: access to UK-wide resources, particularly science, and the flexibility to deliver Scottish requirements when the need arises. In short, they offer us a strong Scottish voice, yet the ability to be different when we decide. This is our chance, as a Scottish Parliament, to send out a clear message that we are serious about food safety. It is our opportunity to address this issue effectively and responsibly for the benefit of the Scottish people. I recommend the proposals and ask members to support the motion. I move,That the Parliament endorses the principle of a UK Food Standards Agency as set out in the Food Standards Bill and agrees that the Bill should be considered by the UK Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am very pleased that one of my early outings in this chamber is on the issue of food safety. It is a very important issue with a particular resonance in Scotland, and it is right for this Parliament to discuss it at an early stage.

The motion seeks this Parliament's approval for the creation of a UK food standards agency, within which are embodied specific provisions for Scotland. The draft bill currently before the Westminster Parliament is the product of extensive consultation and pre-legislative scrutiny. This is our opportunity to endorse its provisions.

I want to outline some of the main elements of the proposed food standards agency. I also want to set out some of the guiding principles on food safety that the Executive will follow—now and in the future. I state from the outset that the Executive recognises the public's legitimate concerns about food safety. We are determined to play our part to ensure that those concerns are addressed effectively and responsibly.

We want to put arrangements in place that have the best chance of success—the best chance of reducing food poisoning outbreaks, the best chance of improving hygiene standards and the best chance of re-establishing consumer confidence—and I firmly believe that the proposals before us today give us the opportunity to make a start on that.

The proposed agency represents a significant and bold step towards rebuilding consumer confidence in the safety of our food. People are concerned about food safety for good reason— nowhere is that more true than here in Scotland. In the 1980s and 1990s, a catalogue of failure produced the BSE crisis and the appalling tragedy of the Lanarkshire E coli outbreak. It is our responsibility in the Scottish Parliament to do all that we can to reduce the chances of such events occurring again. Public confidence has badly faltered. It is not enough to issue reassuring statements to a sceptical public; we have to act and be seen to act to improve food standards. We have to show the public that their interests are genuinely at the heart of food safety decision making. We also have to help educate and inform the public on what they can do to ensure that their food is safe to eat.

Creating a new food standards agency is a bold and innovative step to depoliticise food, to further sensible discussion of related matters and to move away from the highly charged and emotive arena of tabloid headlines, of which we have seen so many in recent weeks and months. The Scottish Executive wants a reasonable, responsible, informed and open approach to food safety issues in Scotland. We want Scotland's future food safety policy to be based on the best available expertise and to be anchored in sound scientific advice—the best available. We also want to ensure that that policy is transparent and clearly explained, not in scientific jargon but in terms that are easily understandable to the person in the street.

That is our aim in supporting the creation of the new food standards agency. We want it to make its assessment from the standpoint of the best available science; contain people who are skilled in risk management and risk communication; have an open, transparent approach; and be headed by a board that is selected through open recruitment, subject to Nolan committee rules, drawing together experience, knowledge and skills in what is a complex and important area. We also want it to have increased powers to undertake monitoring and surveillance and an enhanced enforcement capability.

It will, of course, still be for us as politicians and policy makers to decide how to act, but we will be doing that from an informed position, with access to expert advice and in a spirit of openness. The agency will publish the advice that it gives to ministers—advice that we can choose to accept or reject. We will then be expected to explain publicly why we have reached our decision. That is as it should be. We are doing all this because the public expect—rightly—that those responsible for maintaining food safety put the protection of public health first. The prize to be won is primarily for consumers: the promise of greater assurance over food safety.

That is right, but there is also a prize to be won

for food producers, processors and manufacturers. Scotland produces high-quality food products and exports to countries throughout the world. If our food industries are to build, retain or regain markets, they must operate from a position where consumers have confidence in the safety of their food and where we have sound food safety policy.

For more than a decade, there have been food scares. All too often we have seen well-intentioned interventions, from experts and others, result in contradictory advice, perplexity and confusion. We must break through that. That is why we need a body that can speak authoritatively and give expert advice to the public, to industry, to consumers, to enforcers and to us as policy makers. Such a body will be a crucial component in driving up food standards.

Responsible, informed debate and keeping consumer interests at heart are our guiding principles for the development of food safety and standards policy. As the Scottish Executive, that is what we aim to achieve. We must consider how best to deliver change and what mechanisms will work best to further the interests of the people of Scotland.

Food is a devolved area. The proposed UK agency provides flexible arrangements for specific action to be taken in Scotland should the circumstances require it. The proposals provide the benefits of flexibility and room for manoeuvre in Scotland, coupled with the consistency and clarity brought by UK-wide arrangements. Food problems do not recognise borders. Food emergencies can quickly spill over from Jedburgh to Carlisle, and in the other direction.

An important European dimension should be borne in mind. Food law is voluminous, complex and much of it is EU-derived. One of the key issues for us is to ensure that legal requirements are translated clearly and consistently to provide the basis for efficient and effective enforcement by, for example, local authorities and the Meat Hygiene Service. Again, the consistency of approach that can be provided by a UK-wide body underpins that principle.

A large task lies ahead. We now have a significant opportunity to make an impact on this problem and to make a difference in Scotland. This bill gives us the right arrangements for Scotland: a separate Scottish arm for the agency and a new independent Scottish food advisory committee to advise on food safety issues in Scotland. The agency will be accountable to the Scottish Parliament in the same way as it is accountable to Westminster. Through a range of joint decision-making powers and arrangements, that will ensure that Scotland's voice is properly heard.

The proposed arrangements offer Scotland the best of both worlds: access to UK-wide resources, particularly science, and the flexibility to deliver Scottish requirements when the need arises. In short, they offer us a strong Scottish voice, yet the ability to be different when we decide.

This is our chance, as a Scottish Parliament, to send out a clear message that we are serious about food safety. It is our opportunity to address this issue effectively and responsibly for the benefit of the Scottish people. I recommend the proposals and ask members to support the motion.

I move,

That the Parliament endorses the principle of a UK Food Standards Agency as set out in the Food Standards Bill and agrees that the Bill should be considered by the UK Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1888E265P358C705264", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolved Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26655, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 127.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 127.0, "ID": 26655, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morgan, Alasdair", "ID": 1888, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Galloway and Upper Nithsdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morgan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alasdair Morgan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 144.0, "ContributionID": 705264, "EditedText": "I will come to that later.What happens if we decide that we do not agree that the bill should be considered by the United Kingdom Parliament? Will Monday's Hansard be torn up? Will the second reading debate be expunged from the record in some Orwellian fashion, reminiscent of \"Nineteen Eighty-Four\"? We know that that is not the case. Westminster will carry on and legislate anyway. Let us look at some of the detail.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will come to that later.

What happens if we decide that we do not agree that the bill should be considered by the United Kingdom Parliament? Will Monday's Hansard be torn up? Will the second reading debate be expunged from the record in some Orwellian fashion, reminiscent of \"Nineteen Eighty-Four\"? We know that that is not the case. Westminster will carry on and legislate anyway. Let us look at some of the detail.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C705265", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolved Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26655, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 127.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 127.0, "ID": 26655, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 146.0, "ContributionID": 705265, "EditedText": "Briefly, please.", "EditedTextHTML": "Briefly, please.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1893E47P78C705260", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolved Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26655, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 127.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 127.0, "ID": 26655, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnstone, Alex", "ID": 1893, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Johnstone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Johnstone (North-East Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 136.0, "ContributionID": 705260, "EditedText": "Will Mr Morgan give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "

Will Mr Morgan give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1893E47P78C705263", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolved Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26655, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 127.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 127.0, "ID": 26655, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnstone, Alex", "ID": 1893, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Johnstone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Johnstone: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 142.0, "ContributionID": 705263, "EditedText": "Those of us who are more concerned about food safety than about constitutional issues would like to know in which areas Mr Morgan believes food standards should differ in Scotland from those in the rest of the United Kingdom?", "EditedTextHTML": "Those of us who are more concerned about food safety than about constitutional issues would like to know in which areas Mr Morgan believes food standards should differ in Scotland from those in the rest of the United Kingdom?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C705271", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolved Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26655, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 127.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 127.0, "ID": 26655, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Richard Simpson (Ochil) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 160.0, "ContributionID": 705271, "EditedText": "I want to say how much I welcome this bill and the fact that, in this instance, legislation is covering the whole of the United Kingdom. It is interesting that members of the SNP, in opposition, want to delay the protection of the Scottish community by seeking separate legislation. We already have a full legislative programme and a full consultation programme on other bills. To delay this bill would be very foolish. Susan made the point, very strongly, that bacteria do not respect boundaries. People also move around and it is important that we have legislation that covers the whole of these islands rather than separate legislation. Mrs Scanlon's point was good: in the long term, we require European legislation. However, until we can get our European partners to consider the problems as seriously as we do, that will be difficult. We should not wait for European legislation, but go ahead with the present legislation, which is good not only because it fulfils one of the UK Labour Government's pledges but because it sets out clearly the devolved role and powers of this Parliament. Mr Chisholm has already referred to the fact that the bill does not preclude this Parliament from enacting its own legislation in future if we feel it necessary. However, we should not enact separate legislation simply out of the beliefs that are held by the SNP. Where legislation should cover the whole of the UK, it is appropriate that it does so. The unity of one act, in this case, seems beneficial. I will refer to one example in the bill. Clause 8(2)(b) deals with the powers of the agency to commission specific research. If that is done on a UK-wide basis, costs will be kept down and the Scottish institutions—which punch well above their weight in terms of research—will be able to compete to undertake the research, which would be beneficial. Roughly 12 per cent of total research takes place in Scotland, whereas one would suppose it to be 9 per cent on a per capita basis. If research were separated out, there would be no real benefit. The bill gives us specific powers. For example, we will have our own Scottish director. Indeed, I hope that our ministers will lobby for the agency to be based in Scotland; nothing in the bill precludes that. We also have a number of other powers to scrutinise the agency's work. We have to have agreement on the published objectives of the agency; again, this Parliament will be consulted. Clause 22 of the bill specifically requires the agency to promote links with the Scottish Administration. Beyond that, there are even some powers that must be retained by the Scottish Ministers and that the UK secretary of state is expressly forbidden from exercising. Again, that is entirely appropriate. If we had different legislation now, and later sought more stringent rules, we could affect our food industry, which—as the SNP spokesman said—is very important to us. I see no need for different legislation. Is Mr Morgan suggesting that we should have less stringent rules? If we did, we would not adequately be protecting the Scottish public. I submit that the motion is the right one for this Parliament at this time.", "EditedTextHTML": "I want to say how much I welcome this bill and the fact that, in this instance, legislation is covering the whole of the United Kingdom. It is interesting that members of the SNP, in opposition, want to delay the protection of the Scottish community by seeking separate legislation. We already have a full legislative programme and a full consultation programme on other bills. To delay this bill would be very foolish.

Susan made the point, very strongly, that bacteria do not respect boundaries. People also move around and it is important that we have legislation that covers the whole of these islands rather than separate legislation.

Mrs Scanlon's point was good: in the long term, we require European legislation. However, until we can get our European partners to consider the problems as seriously as we do, that will be difficult. We should not wait for European legislation, but go ahead with the present legislation, which is good not only because it fulfils one of the UK Labour Government's pledges but because it sets out clearly the devolved role and powers of this Parliament.

Mr Chisholm has already referred to the fact that the bill does not preclude this Parliament from enacting its own legislation in future if we feel it necessary. However, we should not enact separate legislation simply out of the beliefs that are held by the SNP. Where legislation should cover the whole of the UK, it is appropriate that it does so. The unity of one act, in this case, seems beneficial.

I will refer to one example in the bill. Clause 8(2)(b) deals with the powers of the agency to commission specific research. If that is done on a UK-wide basis, costs will be kept down and the Scottish institutions—which punch well above their weight in terms of research—will be able to compete to undertake the research, which would be beneficial. Roughly 12 per cent of total research takes place in Scotland, whereas one would suppose it to be 9 per cent on a per capita basis. If research were separated out, there would be no real benefit.

The bill gives us specific powers. For example, we will have our own Scottish director. Indeed, I hope that our ministers will lobby for the agency to be based in Scotland; nothing in the bill precludes that. We also have a number of other powers to scrutinise the agency's work. We have to have agreement on the published objectives of the agency; again, this Parliament will be consulted. Clause 22 of the bill specifically requires the agency to promote links with the Scottish Administration. Beyond that, there are even some powers that must be retained by the Scottish Ministers and that the UK secretary of state is expressly forbidden from exercising. Again, that is entirely appropriate.

If we had different legislation now, and later sought more stringent rules, we could affect our food industry, which—as the SNP spokesman said—is very important to us. I see no need for different legislation. Is Mr Morgan suggesting that we should have less stringent rules? If we did, we would not adequately be protecting the Scottish public.

I submit that the motion is the right one for this Parliament at this time.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2185E120P328C705272", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolved Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26655, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 127.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 127.0, "ID": 26655, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Brown, Robert", "ID": 2185, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robert Brown", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robert Brown (Glasgow) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 163.0, "ContributionID": 705272, "EditedText": "On behalf of the Liberal Democrats, I welcome the minister's statement and the style in which she made it. The bill is a most important one, which has been long awaited and long in gestation. It is unfortunate that Alasdair Morgan contributed a carping diatribe about whether the bill should have been introduced as Scottish legislation, instead of giving us the benefit of his extensive constituency and other experience in the field. People are interested in the end result, not in where the bill came from or how it came about. Other speakers have dealt, properly, with the limitations that Alasdair Morgan suggested. I will deal, in passing, with the charge that Mrs Scanlon mentioned. That charge caused huge offence among the 42,000 small businesses in this country. The flat-rate levy was a flat-headed idea and it will not be missed; it was self-evidently unfair that a small village shop should be charged the same rate as a large, wealthy supermarket such as Tesco or Safeway. Although it was hardly necessary to have an expensive consultation exercise to arrive at that conclusion, at least the Labour Government at Westminster has listened and done the right thing in the end. I hope to see the Government pursue that exercise and model on the issue of tuition fees. The Scottish Liberal Democrats can justly claim to have led the way on that issue. We had a commitment in the partnership agreement to find a fairer funding system for the food standards agency in Scotland. We now have that and we must get on with establishing the agency, aiding public health, aiding the struggling agricultural sector and increasing public confidence in our quality domestic produce. The implementation of the bill cannot come a moment too soon. A number of speakers have dwelt on the issue of the position of the Scottish food industry. I think that the presence of higher standards—which have admittedly arisen out of troubles that we have had in the past—is a major opportunity for British and Scottish food. In that respect we should be able to pull ahead of the field because of the high standards that the food standards agency will go some way towards producing.", "EditedTextHTML": "On behalf of the Liberal Democrats, I welcome the minister's statement and the style in which she made it.

The bill is a most important one, which has been long awaited and long in gestation. It is unfortunate that Alasdair Morgan contributed a carping diatribe about whether the bill should have been introduced as Scottish legislation, instead of giving us the benefit of his extensive constituency and other experience in the field. People are interested in the end result, not in where the bill came from or how it came about. Other speakers have dealt, properly, with the limitations that Alasdair Morgan suggested.

I will deal, in passing, with the charge that Mrs Scanlon mentioned. That charge caused huge

offence among the 42,000 small businesses in this country. The flat-rate levy was a flat-headed idea and it will not be missed; it was self-evidently unfair that a small village shop should be charged the same rate as a large, wealthy supermarket such as Tesco or Safeway. Although it was hardly necessary to have an expensive consultation exercise to arrive at that conclusion, at least the Labour Government at Westminster has listened and done the right thing in the end. I hope to see the Government pursue that exercise and model on the issue of tuition fees.

The Scottish Liberal Democrats can justly claim to have led the way on that issue. We had a commitment in the partnership agreement to find a fairer funding system for the food standards agency in Scotland. We now have that and we must get on with establishing the agency, aiding public health, aiding the struggling agricultural sector and increasing public confidence in our quality domestic produce. The implementation of the bill cannot come a moment too soon.

A number of speakers have dwelt on the issue of the position of the Scottish food industry. I think that the presence of higher standards—which have admittedly arisen out of troubles that we have had in the past—is a major opportunity for British and Scottish food. In that respect we should be able to pull ahead of the field because of the high standards that the food standards agency will go some way towards producing.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2117E79P104C705273", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolved Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26655, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 127.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 127.0, "ID": 26655, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macdonald, Lewis", "ID": 2117, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lewis Macdonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Lewis Macdonald (Aberdeen Central) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 166.0, "ContributionID": 705273, "EditedText": "First, I would like to take issue with Mr Morgan's problems about the essence of devolution. It seems to me that the essence of devolution in this respect is that we are having this debate today and that we are making the decision about whether to go ahead. I feel very strongly that we are right to go ahead with a single United Kingdom food standards agency, and to encourage the UK Parliament to proceed with this bill and bring it forward with all possible speed so that the agency is in place by the beginning of next year. I am only just old enough to remember the last typhoid epidemic in this country 30 years ago, during which Aberdeen was placed in a kind of collective quarantine because of a single consignment of infected imported corned beef. Other nightmares are more recent and have been referred to. Human-variant Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease is perhaps the most stunning failure of all in food standards. There has been an outbreak of E coli most recently in the north-east in Mr Salmond's constituency, but most disastrous was the outbreak of E coli in central Scotland a couple of years ago. Mr Morgan asked if there are exceptional circumstances. Yes, there are and they include E coli and those other failures of Scottish food standards that should inspire our debate today. The problem is not just Scottish. It is vital that British consumers should have confidence in the food that they buy whether it is British-produced, imported, or from north or south of the border. I think it is appropriate that the standards should be the same. This is not simply a UK bill in the old-fashioned sense. It is a bill that reflects the reality of devolution. As little as a year ago, it could not have been written in the terms in which it has been written. Not only will two of the board members of the food standards agency be appointed by ministers of this Parliament, and not only will there be a separate director for Scotland heading an executive wing of the agency, but there will be an independent Scottish food advisory committee in order to reflect the range of expertise and interests in food safety. I hope that ministers will carry the cause of devolution further forward by locating the Scottish wing of the agency not in Edinburgh, but in Aberdeen, which boasts the highest concentration in Europe of expertise in life sciences, environmental sciences and food sciences. There are more than 3,000 people working in those fields. We must first get the show on the road. The food standards bill belongs to the age of devolution in one respect above all others, and that has been referred to by a couple of my colleagues already. It recognises that the Scottish Parliament can, whenever it chooses, amend, repeal or adjust any aspect of the bill once it is enacted. We get the best of both worlds: quick, decisive action and the power to do otherwise in the future should we wish that. I would draw the minister's attention to a point in clause 42(3) of the bill. That extends the agency's right of inspection and enforcement to territorial waters and the continental shelf. That will have a particular impact on food premises on oil and gas rigs in the British sector of the North sea. There have been some questions in this Parliament about jurisdictional matters in the North sea and I would be very grateful if the minister could answer those. My constituent Professor Hugh Pennington is one of the experts in food safety whom mentioned. I think that his report on E coli has set the tone for this bill. He has consistently urged ministers for the past two years to get a move on and not to delay, but to get the bill passed into law as soon as possible. I think that we should support the motion and do that.", "EditedTextHTML": "First, I would like to take issue with Mr Morgan's problems about the essence of devolution. It seems to me that the essence of devolution in this respect is that we are having this debate today and that we are making the decision about whether to go ahead. I feel very strongly that we are right to go ahead with a single United Kingdom food standards agency, and to encourage the UK Parliament to proceed with this bill and bring it forward with all possible speed so that the agency is in place by the beginning of next year.

I am only just old enough to remember the last typhoid epidemic in this country 30 years ago, during which Aberdeen was placed in a kind of collective quarantine because of a single consignment of infected imported corned beef. Other nightmares are more recent and have been referred to. Human-variant Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease is perhaps the most stunning failure of all in food standards. There has been an outbreak of E coli most recently in the north-east in Mr Salmond's constituency, but most disastrous was the outbreak of E coli in central Scotland a couple of years ago.

Mr Morgan asked if there are exceptional circumstances. Yes, there are and they include E coli and those other failures of Scottish food standards that should inspire our debate today. The problem is not just Scottish. It is vital that British consumers should have confidence in the food that they buy whether it is British-produced, imported, or from north or south of the border. I think it is appropriate that the standards should be the same.

This is not simply a UK bill in the old-fashioned sense. It is a bill that reflects the reality of devolution. As little as a year ago, it could not have been written in the terms in which it has been written. Not only will two of the board members of the food standards agency be appointed by ministers of this Parliament, and not only will there be a separate director for Scotland heading an executive wing of the agency, but there will be an independent Scottish food advisory committee in order to reflect the range of expertise and interests in food safety.

I hope that ministers will carry the cause of devolution further forward by locating the Scottish wing of the agency not in Edinburgh, but in Aberdeen, which boasts the highest concentration in Europe of expertise in life sciences, environmental sciences and food sciences. There are more than 3,000 people working in those fields.

We must first get the show on the road. The food standards bill belongs to the age of devolution in one respect above all others, and that has been referred to by a couple of my colleagues already. It recognises that the Scottish Parliament can, whenever it chooses, amend, repeal or adjust any aspect of the bill once it is enacted. We get the best of both worlds: quick, decisive action and the power to do otherwise in the future should we wish that.

I would draw the minister's attention to a point in clause 42(3) of the bill. That extends the agency's right of inspection and enforcement to territorial waters and the continental shelf. That will have a particular impact on food premises on oil and gas rigs in the British sector of the North sea. There have been some questions in this Parliament about jurisdictional matters in the North sea and I would be very grateful if the minister could answer those.

My constituent Professor Hugh Pennington is one of the experts in food safety whom mentioned. I think that his report on E coli has set the tone for this bill. He has consistently urged ministers for the past two years to get a move on and not to delay, but to get the bill passed into law as soon as possible. I think that we should support the motion and do that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1893E47P78C705279", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolved Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26655, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 127.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 127.0, "ID": 26655, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnstone, Alex", "ID": 1893, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Johnstone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Johnstone (North-East Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 181.0, "ContributionID": 705279, "EditedText": "The early days of the Parliament resulted in accusations that the Conservatives and the SNP were working together with an indecent willingness. It is no surprise, then, that we have finally come to an issue on which we are going to throw ourselves in with the Administration—or the Labour party—view. We welcome the terms in which the bill has been introduced. I acknowledge the contribution made by Mr Sam Galbraith in the early stages of this discussion. He took his roadshow around Scotland in the months leading up to the election, and on two occasions I involved myself in discussion with him. I was impressed by his understanding of how important it was that this issue was introduced at a UK-wide level rather than solely at a Scottish level. My primary concern is that we ensure that the bill does not damage Scotland's farming and food- producing industry. The Royal Highland Show, Scotland's showcase for the farming and food- producing industry, will open at Ingliston this week. We must remember that Scottish quality products have a reputation worldwide. Scotland's farmers have nothing to fear from the introduction of a food standards agency, but we must ensure that they are not penalised by the introduction of the agency. As farmers and food producers, we operate in a European single market. It is essential, therefore, that we pursue a single standard wherever possible. We want food standards to be as high as possible; we must have common standards and must accept that if we are to impose higher standards in Scotland, we will naturally disadvantage Scotland's farmers. Worse still, we will take away their greatest marketing tool. Scotland's farmers have high standards and Scotland's food production industry has a worldwide reputation. It is that higher voluntary standard that gives us the marketing edge. We cannot afford legislation that imposes higher standards in Scotland or allow that to affect our farmers. Similarly, we cannot afford to have food imported into the United Kingdom that is produced to a lower standard than that which is produced here. We see examples of that every day. Scotland's pig producers are on the verge of bankruptcy as a result of legislation that disproportionately affected UK and Scottish producers and allowed cheaper foreign product, produced to a lower standard, to compete directly with the domestic product. If we choose to go along the road of a separate, higher, Scottish minimum standard, we will see that same situation develop in relation to every commodity produced by the Scottish food industry.", "EditedTextHTML": "The early days of the Parliament resulted in accusations that the Conservatives and the SNP were working together with an indecent willingness. It is no surprise, then, that we have finally come to an issue on which we are going to throw ourselves in with the Administration—or the Labour party—view.

We welcome the terms in which the bill has been introduced. I acknowledge the contribution made by Mr Sam Galbraith in the early stages of this discussion. He took his roadshow around Scotland in the months leading up to the election, and on two occasions I involved myself in discussion with him. I was impressed by his understanding of how important it was that this issue was introduced at a UK-wide level rather than solely at a Scottish level.

My primary concern is that we ensure that the bill does not damage Scotland's farming and food- producing industry. The Royal Highland Show, Scotland's showcase for the farming and food- producing industry, will open at Ingliston this week. We must remember that Scottish quality products have a reputation worldwide.

Scotland's farmers have nothing to fear from the introduction of a food standards agency, but we must ensure that they are not penalised by the introduction of the agency. As farmers and food producers, we operate in a European single market. It is essential, therefore, that we pursue a single standard wherever possible. We want food standards to be as high as possible; we must have common standards and must accept that if we are to impose higher standards in Scotland, we will naturally disadvantage Scotland's farmers. Worse still, we will take away their greatest marketing tool.

Scotland's farmers have high standards and Scotland's food production industry has a worldwide reputation. It is that higher voluntary standard that gives us the marketing edge. We cannot afford legislation that imposes higher standards in Scotland or allow that to affect our farmers. Similarly, we cannot afford to have food imported into the United Kingdom that is produced to a lower standard than that which is produced here. We see examples of that every day. Scotland's pig producers are on the verge of bankruptcy as a result of legislation that disproportionately affected UK and Scottish producers and allowed cheaper foreign product, produced to a lower standard, to compete directly with the domestic product.

If we choose to go along the road of a separate, higher, Scottish minimum standard, we will see that same situation develop in relation to every commodity produced by the Scottish food industry.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1893E47P78C705281", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolved Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26655, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 127.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 127.0, "ID": 26655, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnstone, Alex", "ID": 1893, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Johnstone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Johnstone: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 185.0, "ContributionID": 705281, "EditedText": "I hope that Mr Morgan will accept that the logic of what I am saying is that we need a common standard within a common market. We need a level playing field. Scotland's farmers have already experienced the disadvantage of having a higher standard imposed on them, and we cannot afford to allow the Scottish food production industry to be penalised by similar efforts being introduced in other areas of food production.", "EditedTextHTML": "I hope that Mr Morgan will accept that the logic of what I am saying is that we need a common standard within a common market. We need a level playing field. Scotland's farmers have already experienced the disadvantage of having a higher standard imposed on them, and we cannot afford to allow the Scottish food production industry to be penalised by similar efforts being introduced in other areas of food production.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1916E38P70C705285", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolved Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26655, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 127.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 127.0, "ID": 26655, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Ben", "ID": 1916, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ben Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ben Wallace (North-East Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 194.0, "ContributionID": 705285, "EditedText": "Point of order.", "EditedTextHTML": "

Point of order.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C705291", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolved Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26655, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 127.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 127.0, "ID": 26655, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ms Patricia Ferguson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 206.0, "ContributionID": 705291, "EditedText": "Could you begin to wind up, Mrs Ullrich.", "EditedTextHTML": "Could you begin to wind up, Mrs Ullrich.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1811E172P455C705292", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolved Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26655, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 127.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 127.0, "ID": 26655, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ullrich, Kay", "ID": 1811, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kay Ullrich", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Kay Ullrich: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 208.0, "ContributionID": 705292, "EditedText": "The parliament can do much to improve not only nutritional inequality, but inequalities across the range of policy issues that impinge on the health and well-being of our people. In effect, we must ensure that all policy is poverty-proofed, at a pre-legislative stage. The food standards bill presents this Parliament with an ideal opportunity to do just that. We should not give away that power.", "EditedTextHTML": "The parliament can do much to improve not only nutritional inequality, but inequalities across the range of policy issues that impinge on the health and well-being of our people. In effect, we must ensure that all policy is poverty-proofed, at a pre-legislative stage. The food standards bill presents this Parliament with an ideal opportunity to do just that. We should not give away that power.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C705298", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolved Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26655, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 127.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 127.0, "ID": 26655, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Justice (Angus Mackay): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 222.0, "ContributionID": 705298, "EditedText": "I have a slightly lengthy speech to make. I shall be as brisk as possible, to ensure that all members who want to participate will have time to do so. I am speaking to this motion, which has been lodged by the First Minister, as the three bills that it concerns fall within the field of civil law. As the First Minister said in his statement to the Parliament on 9 June, both the Scottish Executive and the UK Government expect that, by convention, the UK Parliament will not normally legislate on devolved matters without the consent of the Scottish Parliament. Bills will often come before the UK Parliament which extend to Scotland and relate to reserved matters, but it will be exceptional for those bills to relate also to devolved matters. However, a bill that essentially concerns reserved matters may impinge on devolved matters of Scots law. To secure a level playing field throughout the UK, it may be necessary for the provisions to include changes to Scots law. Scots law is, however, generally a devolved matter. This motion relates to three bills, each of which has some impact on Scots private law. None of the bills in itself changes the law in devolved areas, but there is some impact. In the interests of maximum openness and transparency, we have agreed that this Parliament should be informed of those matters and that its consent should be obtained. The first bill is the Financial Services and Markets Bill, which was introduced at Westminster on 17 June. It does not make any provision that would have been within the competence of this Parliament but it has an impact on bankruptcy law, which is devolved. The purpose of the bill is to set up a single regulator for financial services and markets. The regulator will be a continuation of the existing Financial Services Authority, which will be given additional powers. The FSA already regulates banking and investment business but the bill will bring all financial services, such as insurance, under its control.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have a slightly lengthy speech to make. I shall be as brisk as possible, to ensure that all members who want to participate will have time to do so. I am speaking to this motion, which has been lodged by the First Minister, as the three bills that it concerns fall within the field of civil law.

As the First Minister said in his statement to the Parliament on 9 June, both the Scottish Executive and the UK Government expect that, by

convention, the UK Parliament will not normally legislate on devolved matters without the consent of the Scottish Parliament. Bills will often come before the UK Parliament which extend to Scotland and relate to reserved matters, but it will be exceptional for those bills to relate also to devolved matters. However, a bill that essentially concerns reserved matters may impinge on devolved matters of Scots law. To secure a level playing field throughout the UK, it may be necessary for the provisions to include changes to Scots law. Scots law is, however, generally a devolved matter.

This motion relates to three bills, each of which has some impact on Scots private law. None of the bills in itself changes the law in devolved areas, but there is some impact. In the interests of maximum openness and transparency, we have agreed that this Parliament should be informed of those matters and that its consent should be obtained.

The first bill is the Financial Services and Markets Bill, which was introduced at Westminster on 17 June. It does not make any provision that would have been within the competence of this Parliament but it has an impact on bankruptcy law, which is devolved.

The purpose of the bill is to set up a single regulator for financial services and markets. The regulator will be a continuation of the existing Financial Services Authority, which will be given additional powers. The FSA already regulates banking and investment business but the bill will bring all financial services, such as insurance, under its control.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4828182+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C705300", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolved Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26655, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 127.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 127.0, "ID": 26655, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Angus Mackay: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 226.0, "ContributionID": 705300, "EditedText": "I know that Mr Swinney has concerns about this matter and that the Law Society of Scotland has made representations to both the FSA and the Treasury. I intended to cover that point in my speech or in winding up, but I will say at this point that our legal officers will examine the details as we do not want there to be double regulation. It may well be that the legislation that will go through Westminster will remove the need for double regulation. We will return to that point if it will be helpful. Among the sanctions available to the FSA will be the power to petition for the bankruptcy of a sole trader. That sanction will be available where a sole trader appears to be unable to pay a regulated activity debt—a debt relating to the provision of financial services—or to have no prospect of being able to pay such a debt. A typical sole trader is an independent financial adviser. Often someone who advertises services as an independent financial adviser trades as an individual rather than a company, and is therefore open to being sequestrated as an individual for business debts. The bill enables the FSA to ask the court to sequestrate the estate of an insolvent sole trader to minimise the loss that might otherwise be sustained by consumers doing business with them. In Scots law, bankruptcy is normally a creditor-driven process. Usually, the creditor petitions for the bankruptcy of an individual, but that can also be done by the debtor, or by a trustee under a trust deed. The bill will create a precedent in Scots bankruptcy law, as the FSA will not be a creditor, but will act on behalf of individuals who might sustain loss through the continued activities of a sole trader. The Scottish Parliament could not pass legislation to give the FSA that power, as regulation of financial services is a reserved matter. I hope that we can agree that it is important that the protection offered by the FSA to investors in England, Wales and Northern Ireland should be available to the same extent in Scotland, and that it is appropriate for the bill to make this provision. The UK Government plans to introduce an electronic communications bill before the recess. This important bill will create a framework for the increased use of electronic commerce throughout the UK. Electronic commerce involves marketing goods and services by electronic means. It can involve the buying and selling of goods and services, as well as money transfers, advertising, and transactions with the Government. The bill will provide powers to create an approvals regime for bodies that offer electronic signature and confidentiality services that enable people to check who has signed an electronic message and that the message has not been tampered with, but has been kept confidential. The bill will not contain any devolved provisions, but it will provide that existing legislation may be modified by statutory instrument for the purposes of authorising, facilitating or encouraging the use of electronic commerce or electronic storage. That could, for example, involve changes to the Requirements of Writing (Scotland) Act 1995, which provides for documents to be executed with manual signatures. The electronic communications bill would not have been within the competence of this Parliament. It would of course be possible for this Parliament by primary legislation to amend the Requirements of Writing (Scotland) Act 1995 to provide for documents with an electronic signature to be valid. However, the bill will make it possible for a Scottish minister to introduce by secondary legislation a complete package of rules on reserved matters, with the consent of a UK minister. That will be done in this Parliament, but it will not be possible if the UK Parliament does not provide for it in the electronic communications bill. I hope, therefore, that the Parliament will agree that it is appropriate to give consent to that part of the bill. The limited liability partnerships bill, which has not yet been introduced, will create a new form of business association—a limited liability partnership—which would be a body corporate in which the liability of the partners would be limited to the extent of their stake in the business. It would not be within the legislative competence of this Parliament to introduce such a bill, as it deals with a reserved matter: the regulation of business associations. The bill will not contain any provision on devolved matters other than a power to make regulations on the process of winding up a limited liability partnership, because the law on the process of winding up business associations in Scotland is devolved. It would, therefore, be for a Scottish minister to make any regulations needed for the process of winding up limited liability partnerships in Scotland. The law concerning Scottish partnerships, such as, typically, firms of solicitors, will not be affected by the bill. The bill will provide useful additional flexibility for Scottish business and I hope that members will have no difficulty consenting to the provision to make regulations on the process of winding up. I would now like to say a few words about the more general matter of the UK Parliament legislating in devolved areas. The usual rule will be that legislation in devolved areas will be enacted by this Parliament. From time to time, however, it may make sense for a UK act to include provisions about such matters. The bills that we are considering today provide examples of circumstances in which that may be appropriate. As I said earlier, our expectation is that, by convention, the UK Parliament will not usually legislate on devolved matters without the consent of this Parliament. It is important, therefore, that this Parliament should be kept informed of such proposals. As the First Minister said in his statement, where the Scottish Executive and the United Kingdom Government agree that a policy affecting devolved areas should be given effect by an act of the UK Parliament, it would be for the Scottish Ministers to put the proposal to the Scottish Parliament. Our intention in any such case is to produce a memorandum to provide this Parliament with the information that enables it to take a decision on the proposal. We would also lodge a motion seeking the Parliament's approval. Whether time should be found for a debate on such a motion will be a matter for the Parliamentary Bureau, but I do not expect that it will be necessary to debate the detail of every bill as we are doing today. With bills such as these, whose effect on devolved matters would be minor, we expect that a Parliament debate will be thought unnecessary. If the bureau thought it necessary, perhaps the appropriate committee could be asked to make a recommendation. However, when the effect on devolved matters would be more significant, the Executive will certainly consider sympathetically the case for a debate. Thereafter, it will be necessary to keep this Parliament informed of the development of any such legislation. Our intention is that that should be done by means of supplementary memorandums should there be any change to the legislation during its passage that materially affects the extent to which it impacts in devolved areas. I hope that the Parliament will agree that this represents a sensible approach. I move,That the Parliament agrees that the Financial Services and Markets Bill, the Electronic Communications Bill and the Limited Liability Partnerships Bill should be considered by the UK Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "I know that Mr Swinney has concerns about this matter and that the Law Society of Scotland has made representations to both the FSA and the Treasury. I intended to cover that point in my speech or in winding up, but I will say at this point that our legal officers will examine the details as we do not want there to be double regulation. It may well be that the legislation that will go through Westminster will remove the need for double regulation. We will return to that point if it will be helpful.

Among the sanctions available to the FSA will be the power to petition for the bankruptcy of a sole trader. That sanction will be available where a sole trader appears to be unable to pay a regulated activity debt—a debt relating to the provision of financial services—or to have no prospect of being able to pay such a debt. A typical sole trader is an independent financial adviser. Often someone who advertises services as an independent financial adviser trades as an individual rather than a company, and is therefore open to being sequestrated as an individual for business debts.

The bill enables the FSA to ask the court to sequestrate the estate of an insolvent sole trader to minimise the loss that might otherwise be sustained by consumers doing business with them. In Scots law, bankruptcy is normally a creditor-driven process. Usually, the creditor petitions for the bankruptcy of an individual, but that can also be done by the debtor, or by a trustee under a trust deed. The bill will create a precedent in Scots bankruptcy law, as the FSA will not be a creditor, but will act on behalf of individuals who might sustain loss through the continued activities of a sole trader. The Scottish Parliament could not pass legislation to give the FSA that power, as regulation of financial services is a reserved matter.

I hope that we can agree that it is important that the protection offered by the FSA to investors in England, Wales and Northern Ireland should be available to the same extent in Scotland, and that it is appropriate for the bill to make this provision.

The UK Government plans to introduce an electronic communications bill before the recess. This important bill will create a framework for the increased use of electronic commerce throughout the UK. Electronic commerce involves marketing goods and services by electronic means. It can involve the buying and selling of goods and services, as well as money transfers, advertising, and transactions with the Government.

The bill will provide powers to create an approvals regime for bodies that offer electronic signature and confidentiality services that enable people to check who has signed an electronic message and that the message has not been tampered with, but has been kept confidential.

The bill will not contain any devolved provisions, but it will provide that existing legislation may be modified by statutory instrument for the purposes of authorising, facilitating or encouraging the use of electronic commerce or electronic storage. That could, for example, involve changes to the

Requirements of Writing (Scotland) Act 1995, which provides for documents to be executed with manual signatures.

The electronic communications bill would not have been within the competence of this Parliament. It would of course be possible for this Parliament by primary legislation to amend the Requirements of Writing (Scotland) Act 1995 to provide for documents with an electronic signature to be valid. However, the bill will make it possible for a Scottish minister to introduce by secondary legislation a complete package of rules on reserved matters, with the consent of a UK minister. That will be done in this Parliament, but it will not be possible if the UK Parliament does not provide for it in the electronic communications bill. I hope, therefore, that the Parliament will agree that it is appropriate to give consent to that part of the bill.

The limited liability partnerships bill, which has not yet been introduced, will create a new form of business association—a limited liability partnership—which would be a body corporate in which the liability of the partners would be limited to the extent of their stake in the business. It would not be within the legislative competence of this Parliament to introduce such a bill, as it deals with a reserved matter: the regulation of business associations.

The bill will not contain any provision on devolved matters other than a power to make regulations on the process of winding up a limited liability partnership, because the law on the process of winding up business associations in Scotland is devolved. It would, therefore, be for a Scottish minister to make any regulations needed for the process of winding up limited liability partnerships in Scotland. The law concerning Scottish partnerships, such as, typically, firms of solicitors, will not be affected by the bill.

The bill will provide useful additional flexibility for Scottish business and I hope that members will have no difficulty consenting to the provision to make regulations on the process of winding up.

I would now like to say a few words about the more general matter of the UK Parliament legislating in devolved areas. The usual rule will be that legislation in devolved areas will be enacted by this Parliament. From time to time, however, it may make sense for a UK act to include provisions about such matters. The bills that we are considering today provide examples of circumstances in which that may be appropriate. As I said earlier, our expectation is that, by convention, the UK Parliament will not usually legislate on devolved matters without the consent of this Parliament. It is important, therefore, that this Parliament should be kept informed of such proposals.

As the First Minister said in his statement, where the Scottish Executive and the United Kingdom Government agree that a policy affecting devolved areas should be given effect by an act of the UK Parliament, it would be for the Scottish Ministers to put the proposal to the Scottish Parliament. Our intention in any such case is to produce a memorandum to provide this Parliament with the information that enables it to take a decision on the proposal. We would also lodge a motion seeking the Parliament's approval.

Whether time should be found for a debate on such a motion will be a matter for the Parliamentary Bureau, but I do not expect that it will be necessary to debate the detail of every bill as we are doing today. With bills such as these, whose effect on devolved matters would be minor, we expect that a Parliament debate will be thought unnecessary. If the bureau thought it necessary, perhaps the appropriate committee could be asked to make a recommendation. However, when the effect on devolved matters would be more significant, the Executive will certainly consider sympathetically the case for a debate.

Thereafter, it will be necessary to keep this Parliament informed of the development of any such legislation. Our intention is that that should be done by means of supplementary memorandums should there be any change to the legislation during its passage that materially affects the extent to which it impacts in devolved areas.

I hope that the Parliament will agree that this represents a sensible approach.

I move,

That the Parliament agrees that the Financial Services and Markets Bill, the Electronic Communications Bill and the Limited Liability Partnerships Bill should be considered by the UK Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4828182+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1888E265P358C705301", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolved Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26655, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 127.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 127.0, "ID": 26655, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morgan, Alasdair", "ID": 1888, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Galloway and Upper Nithsdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morgan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alasdair Morgan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 229.0, "ContributionID": 705301, "EditedText": "I shall be brief, Madam Deputy Presiding Officer, as I had a fair kick at the ball last time. The bills that we are discussing are important for Scotland—particularly those in relation to financial services, which is an area in which Scotland has some pre-eminent institutions. They are also important in the fast-growing field of electronic commerce. Scotland has a lot to gain from the development of that industry, in which the rural and more far-flung areas of the country can begin to compete on a level playing field with other areas that are nearer centres of population. As the minister said, these bills are different from the bill to establish a food standards agency in so far as they deal largely with reserved areas although they touch peripherally on devolved areas. Those devolved areas, however, are important for Scots law. One of the reasons for devolution is that, quite frankly, the Westminster Parliament often did not have either the time or the expertise to get right the incidental changes that are often made to Scots law as a result of legislation. We have an example of that in relation to the electronic commerce bill. I am unclear about the name of that bill. I think the minister referred to electronic commerce—which was my understanding of the title—but I see that the motion refers to electronic communications. Perhaps they are the same thing. The House of Commons Trade and Industry Select Committee's seventh report this session examined the Department of Trade and Industry's consultation document on the electronic commerce bill and said that the \"consultation document does not reflect the differences between the English and Scottish legal systems in its discussion of changes to the ways in which courts deal with electronic signatures.\" In fact, the DTI had simply ignored the fact that Scotland deals with those matters differently. The select committee said: \"We consider it a potentially serious omission that DTI has not indicated how its proposals for electronic signatures would affect Scottish law\". That example illustrates my point of concern about UK legislation that affects Scottish matters. The minister alluded to two bills that have not yet been published, so in effect we are discussing something that we have not seen. Even the Financial Services and Markets Bill—more than 200 pages of it—was published only last week. I suspect that not all members have read all of it. It is stretching credibility to expect us simply to say, \"Yes, it is okay for the UK Parliament to go ahead with this bill, which does not yet exist, but which will touch on some devolved matters.\" That is not satisfactory. At the very least, we should have the bill in front of us when we are considering a motion such as this. I welcome the introduction—after the event—of a procedure to deal with the incidental changes that are often made to Scots law as a result of UK legislation, but the procedure must deal with legislation both before it goes to second reading and after it comes from its final stage in the Parliament down the road, because a lot can happen to a bill from its first publication to its entry in the statute book. SNP members still have considerable concern about this method of working. I accept the minister's assurance that we will be given the opportunity to scrutinise bills, but I would hate it to be for the Executive to decide whether this Parliament has the chance to scrutinise legislation that affects Scots law.", "EditedTextHTML": "I shall be brief, Madam Deputy Presiding Officer, as I had a fair kick at the ball last time.

The bills that we are discussing are important for Scotland—particularly those in relation to financial services, which is an area in which Scotland has some pre-eminent institutions. They are also important in the fast-growing field of electronic commerce. Scotland has a lot to gain from the development of that industry, in which the rural and more far-flung areas of the country can begin to compete on a level playing field with other areas that are nearer centres of population.

As the minister said, these bills are different from the bill to establish a food standards agency in so far as they deal largely with reserved areas

although they touch peripherally on devolved areas. Those devolved areas, however, are important for Scots law. One of the reasons for devolution is that, quite frankly, the Westminster Parliament often did not have either the time or the expertise to get right the incidental changes that are often made to Scots law as a result of legislation.

We have an example of that in relation to the electronic commerce bill. I am unclear about the name of that bill. I think the minister referred to electronic commerce—which was my understanding of the title—but I see that the motion refers to electronic communications. Perhaps they are the same thing.

The House of Commons Trade and Industry Select Committee's seventh report this session examined the Department of Trade and Industry's consultation document on the electronic commerce bill and said that the

\"consultation document does not reflect the differences between the English and Scottish legal systems in its discussion of changes to the ways in which courts deal with electronic signatures.\"

In fact, the DTI had simply ignored the fact that Scotland deals with those matters differently. The select committee said:

\"We consider it a potentially serious omission that DTI has not indicated how its proposals for electronic signatures would affect Scottish law\".

That example illustrates my point of concern about UK legislation that affects Scottish matters.

The minister alluded to two bills that have not yet been published, so in effect we are discussing something that we have not seen. Even the Financial Services and Markets Bill—more than 200 pages of it—was published only last week. I suspect that not all members have read all of it. It is stretching credibility to expect us simply to say, \"Yes, it is okay for the UK Parliament to go ahead with this bill, which does not yet exist, but which will touch on some devolved matters.\" That is not satisfactory. At the very least, we should have the bill in front of us when we are considering a motion such as this.

I welcome the introduction—after the event—of a procedure to deal with the incidental changes that are often made to Scots law as a result of UK legislation, but the procedure must deal with legislation both before it goes to second reading and after it comes from its final stage in the Parliament down the road, because a lot can happen to a bill from its first publication to its entry in the statute book.

SNP members still have considerable concern about this method of working. I accept the minister's assurance that we will be given the opportunity to scrutinise bills, but I would hate it to be for the Executive to decide whether this Parliament has the chance to scrutinise legislation that affects Scots law.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4828182+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C705304", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolved Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26655, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 127.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 127.0, "ID": 26655, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Angus Mackay: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 238.0, "ContributionID": 705304, "EditedText": "Some concerns have been raised twice and I have addressed them already. I understand that the FSA is in the process of issuing—if it has not already done so—a consultation paper that may address some of the concerns raised by the Law Society. There are 72 Scottish MPs at Westminster who are perfectly capable of raising those concerns during the passage of the bill if they relate to legislation on a reserved matter. I hope that that answer covers most of the concerns that have been raised. Mr Morgan raised a couple of points, which I do not think were substantive criticisms of the motion. I think that he is largely happy to accept that the bills do not impact excessively heavily on devolved matters. I will address the issue of legislation that is altered substantially between the time we first consider it and when it is dealt with at Westminster. I spoke earlier about the need to be able to examine any substantial changes that emerge by bringing them back to the Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "Some concerns have been raised twice and I have addressed them already. I understand that the FSA is in the process of issuing—if it has not already done so—a consultation paper that may address some of the concerns raised by the Law Society. There are 72 Scottish MPs at Westminster who are perfectly capable of raising those concerns during the passage of the bill if they relate to legislation on a reserved matter. I hope that that answer covers most of the concerns that have been raised.

Mr Morgan raised a couple of points, which I do not think were substantive criticisms of the motion. I think that he is largely happy to accept that the bills do not impact excessively heavily on devolved matters.

I will address the issue of legislation that is altered substantially between the time we first consider it and when it is dealt with at Westminster. I spoke earlier about the need to be able to examine any substantial changes that emerge by bringing them back to the Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4828182+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C705306", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolved Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26655, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 127.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 127.0, "ID": 26655, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Angus Mackay: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 242.0, "ContributionID": 705306, "EditedText": "What is important is that, when it considers bills, the Parliament is clear about the scope and nature of their impact on devolved matters. As long as that is clear and the Executive and the Parliament have the opportunity to make it clear, the Parliament should be able to come to a rational conclusion about whether it accepts bills being passed at Westminster. I do not feel that there are any real grounds for concern about the bills in the motion. The Scotland Act 1998 has given this Parliament the power to legislate on a wide range of areas. These bills do not encroach on the powers devolved to this Parliament, except for a very marginal impact on Scottish private law. The motion is uncontroversial and I trust that no one will wish to oppose it.", "EditedTextHTML": "What is important is that, when it considers bills, the Parliament is clear about the scope and nature of their impact on devolved matters. As long as that is clear and the Executive and the Parliament have the opportunity to make it clear, the Parliament should be able to come to a rational conclusion about whether it accepts bills being passed at Westminster.

I do not feel that there are any real grounds for concern about the bills in the motion. The Scotland

Act 1998 has given this Parliament the power to legislate on a wide range of areas. These bills do not encroach on the powers devolved to this Parliament, except for a very marginal impact on Scottish private law. The motion is uncontroversial and I trust that no one will wish to oppose it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4828182+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C705312", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26656, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 244.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 244.0, "ID": 26656, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 257.0, "ContributionID": 705312, "EditedText": "We now move to decision time. There are four questions to be put as a result of today's business. The question is, that motion S1M-60, in the name of Susan Deacon, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "We now move to decision time. There are four questions to be put as a result of today's business.

The question is, that motion S1M-60, in the name of Susan Deacon, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4828182+00:00" }, { "ID": "C705315", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26656, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 244.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 244.0, "ID": 26656, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 263.0, "ContributionID": 705315, "EditedText": "FOR Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)Mackay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Steel, Sir David (Lothians) (LD)Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)(LD)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)AGAINST Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)ABSTENTIONS Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Mackay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Steel, Sir David (Lothians) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)
(LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)

AGAINST

Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)

ABSTENTIONS

Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4828182+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C705316", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26656, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 244.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 244.0, "ID": 26656, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 264.0, "ContributionID": 705316, "EditedText": "The result of the division is as follows: For 81, Against 30, Abstentions 1.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result of the division is as follows: For 81, Against 30, Abstentions 1.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4828182+00:00" }, { "ID": "C705325", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26656, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 244.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 244.0, "ID": 26656, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 278.0, "ContributionID": 705325, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4828182+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C705327", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26656, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 244.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 244.0, "ID": 26656, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 280.0, "ContributionID": 705327, "EditedText": "The result of the vote was: For 70, Against 25, Abstentions 1. I do not think that—", "EditedTextHTML": "The result of the vote was: For 70, Against 25, Abstentions 1. I do not think that—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4828182+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C705329", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26656, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 244.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 244.0, "ID": 26656, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 284.0, "ContributionID": 705329, "EditedText": "I think I can explain the problem, which was partly my fault as I moved very quickly to the vote. If members press a button before the red light comes on—which indicates that they should vote—their vote is not recorded. There seems to be some doubt at the clerk's table about that result, so I will take the vote again. I think that the noes and the abstentions were transposed, and I am seeking advice. It is possible that that is what happened. For the avoidance of doubt, I will put the question again, that motion S1M-61, in the name of Angus Mackay, be agreed to. The voting will start now.", "EditedTextHTML": "I think I can explain the problem, which was partly my fault as I moved very quickly to the vote. If members press a button before the red light comes on—which indicates that they should vote—their vote is not recorded.

There seems to be some doubt at the clerk's table about that result, so I will take the vote again. I think that the noes and the abstentions were transposed, and I am seeking advice. It is possible that that is what happened.

For the avoidance of doubt, I will put the question again, that motion S1M-61, in the name of Angus Mackay, be agreed to. The voting will start now.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4828182+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C705331", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26656, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 244.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 244.0, "ID": 26656, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 288.0, "ContributionID": 705331, "EditedText": "I am sorry. There was a little exchange on this side of the chamber. There is some doubt about the result of the vote on motion S1M-61 in the name of Angus Mackay, although I now understand that it was the correct result. However, the result has been challenged and there is some doubt. We will take the vote again. The question is, that motion S1M-61, in the name of Angus Mackay, be agreed to. Members should vote yes to agree to the motion, no to disagree with the motion or abstain to record an abstention.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry. There was a little exchange on this side of the chamber. There is some doubt about the result of the vote on motion S1M-61 in the name of Angus Mackay, although I now understand that it was the correct result. However, the result has been challenged and there is some doubt. We will take the vote again.

The question is, that motion S1M-61, in the name of Angus Mackay, be agreed to. Members should vote yes to agree to the motion, no to disagree with the motion or abstain to record an abstention.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4828182+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1926E190P479C705339", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Peripheral Route, Aberdeen", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26657, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 295.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 295.0, "ID": 26657, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Adam, Brian", "ID": 1926, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Adam", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Brian Adam (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 301.0, "ContributionID": 705339, "EditedText": "The local Aberdeen Evening Express kindly referred to me recently as a real north of Scotland MSP. I certainly hope that the paper does not consider some of my colleagues to be unreal MSPs, because I greatly value the cross-party support for the motion. Most unusually for a proposed roads development, there is widespread support throughout the north-east for the principle of the western peripheral route. The scheme involves economic, safety, environmental and congestion considerations, which reflect national as well as local perspectives. Representations have been made to me about the impact of Government proposals on the review of the trunk road network and on regional transport partnerships and about the key part that those proposals will play in an integrated transport strategy for the north-east. Other members will undoubtedly wish to highlight particular concerns about the scheme, but I want to leave the Minister for Transport and the Environment in no doubt about the depth of feeling about and support for the western peripheral route. According to the local newspaper, the proposal first saw light of day 50 years ago. Since then, the outer ring road around Aberdeen has become an inner ring road with substantial housing and other developments to the west of Anderson Drive. The city of Aberdeen and its hinterland have been the engine room of much more than just a regional economy over the past 30 years but, for most of that time, the area has been labouring under the handicap of an inadequate roads infrastructure. There is now a significant undersupply of accessible land in the city for business and commercial development. Aberdeen City Council's document, \"A Transportation Strategy for Aberdeen\", says: \"Heavy vehicles . . . use inappropriate roads through or around the City, causing social and environmental problems within Aberdeen and penalising the City's economy.\" The document goes on to say that all trunk roads south of Aberdeen are of at least dual-carriageway standard and that no traffic lights exist between Aberdeen and the channel tunnel. However, Anderson Drive—which is hailed as Aberdeen's main trunk road and which, in one of the Conservative Government's last acts, was given trunk road status—has 17 sets of traffic lights. I have to confess that I bear some responsibility—in my previous existence as a councillor—for three sets of those lights. The traffic lights are necessary for pedestrian safety, but the Scottish Office document, \"Sustainable Transport for Aberdeen\", states that road safety is still a major concern on the A90 at North Anderson Drive and on some routes through the city. Furthermore, the same document says that North Anderson Drive, North Deeside Road, Riverside Drive, Great Northern Road and King Street have major problems with noise and that those areas suffer greatly from carbon dioxide and nitrogen dioxide pollution. The Aberdeen city plan estimates that congestion in the city costs the local economy about £100 million a year. I want to point out to the minister that the cost of the current scheme for the western peripheral route has been estimated at only £85 million. It will be no surprise to the minister that, given the lack of an integrated transport system in Aberdeen, I am not a supporter of the toll tax or even of road pricing. To be constructive, I refer her to the Government's idea of a Scottish transport bond, as described in \"Pathfinders to the Parliament\"—I believe that Andrew Wilson referred one of her colleagues to it earlier. The transport bond proposal is not that different from the SNP's Scottish public service trusts scheme, which would be a suitable vehicle for piloting it. The Aberdeen chamber of commerce and the city's traders association have stated that \"a western peripheral route would be beneficial in taking unnecessary traffic out of the city centre\" and would help to \"promote a new corridor of investment and development\"around the city. That relates to the current lack of suitable development land. I have had representations from people from a wide variety of public and private interests who support this motion. Some 90 per cent of the 50 million tonnes of freight that is carried to, from or within Grampian is transported by road. That is equivalent to 1.8 million 38-tonne-lorry journeys per annum. Many of those lorries pass through Aberdeen despite the city being neither their point of embarkation nor their destination. That applies to only 15 per cent of the total number, but significantly affects the roads. Fish lorries from Fraserburgh heading for the continent have to pass through Aberdeen; cattle trucks from Thainstone mart near Inverurie heading south have to pass through Aberdeen; travel from Portlethen to Peterhead or from Mintlaw to Manchester involves trips through the city. Why? Because Aberdeen is the only place of its size with no bypass—there is no western peripheral route. Why has Aberdeen been denied a decent bypass over many years when just about every other comparable city in Europe has one? We have perhaps been a bit slow in pressing our case, but that has not been so in recent times. The minister is undoubtedly aware of the depth of feeling and I hope that this debate will reinforce that. After extensive public consultation, the former Grampian Regional Council decided that the route should run from the Charlestown interchange on the A90 south of Aberdeen to the A96 at Craibstone and on to the A90 north of Parkhill. Other members will put their points to the minister, but my principal case is that the present infrastructure is totally inadequate to serve the needs of a strategic national economic resource— that is how the minister should approach the issue. The construction of a western peripheral route round Aberdeen is not just a local solution to a local problem, but a national solution to a national problem, requiring a major financial input from the Scottish Government. I trust that the minister will be able to give a positive response.", "EditedTextHTML": "The local Aberdeen Evening Express kindly referred to me recently as a real north of Scotland MSP. I certainly hope that the paper does not consider some of my colleagues to be unreal MSPs, because I greatly value the cross-party support for the motion.

Most unusually for a proposed roads development, there is widespread support throughout the north-east for the principle of the western peripheral route. The scheme involves economic, safety, environmental and congestion considerations, which reflect national as well as local perspectives. Representations have been made to me about the impact of Government proposals on the review of the trunk road network and on regional transport partnerships and about the key part that those proposals will play in an integrated transport strategy for the north-east.

Other members will undoubtedly wish to highlight particular concerns about the scheme, but I want to leave the Minister for Transport and the Environment in no doubt about the depth of feeling about and support for the western peripheral route.

According to the local newspaper, the proposal first saw light of day 50 years ago. Since then, the outer ring road around Aberdeen has become an inner ring road with substantial housing and other developments to the west of Anderson Drive. The city of Aberdeen and its hinterland have been the engine room of much more than just a regional economy over the past 30 years but, for most of that time, the area has been labouring under the handicap of an inadequate roads infrastructure. There is now a significant undersupply of accessible land in the city for business and commercial development.

Aberdeen City Council's document, \"A Transportation Strategy for Aberdeen\", says:

\"Heavy vehicles . . . use inappropriate roads through or around the City, causing social and environmental problems within Aberdeen and penalising the City's economy.\"

The document goes on to say that all trunk roads south of Aberdeen are of at least dual-carriageway standard and that no traffic lights exist between Aberdeen and the channel tunnel. However, Anderson Drive—which is hailed as Aberdeen's main trunk road and which, in one of the Conservative Government's last acts, was given trunk road status—has 17 sets of traffic lights. I have to confess that I bear some responsibility—in my previous existence as a councillor—for three sets of those lights.

The traffic lights are necessary for pedestrian safety, but the Scottish Office document, \"Sustainable Transport for Aberdeen\", states that road safety is still a major concern on the A90 at North Anderson Drive and on some routes through the city. Furthermore, the same document says that North Anderson Drive, North Deeside Road, Riverside Drive, Great Northern Road and King Street have major problems with noise and that those areas suffer greatly from carbon dioxide and nitrogen dioxide pollution.

The Aberdeen city plan estimates that congestion in the city costs the local economy about £100 million a year. I want to point out to the minister that the cost of the current scheme for the western peripheral route has been estimated at only £85 million.

It will be no surprise to the minister that, given the lack of an integrated transport system in Aberdeen, I am not a supporter of the toll tax or even of road pricing. To be constructive, I refer her to the Government's idea of a Scottish transport bond, as described in \"Pathfinders to the Parliament\"—I believe that Andrew Wilson referred one of her colleagues to it earlier. The transport bond proposal is not that different from the SNP's Scottish public service trusts scheme, which would be a suitable vehicle for piloting it.

The Aberdeen chamber of commerce and the city's traders association have stated that

\"a western peripheral route would be beneficial in taking unnecessary traffic out of the city centre\" and would help to

\"promote a new corridor of investment and development\"

around the city. That relates to the current lack of suitable development land.

I have had representations from people from a wide variety of public and private interests who support this motion. Some 90 per cent of the 50 million tonnes of freight that is carried to, from or within Grampian is transported by road. That is equivalent to 1.8 million 38-tonne-lorry journeys per annum. Many of those lorries pass through Aberdeen despite the city being neither their point of embarkation nor their destination. That applies to only 15 per cent of the total number, but significantly affects the roads.

Fish lorries from Fraserburgh heading for the continent have to pass through Aberdeen; cattle trucks from Thainstone mart near Inverurie heading south have to pass through Aberdeen; travel from Portlethen to Peterhead or from Mintlaw to Manchester involves trips through the city. Why? Because Aberdeen is the only place of its size with no bypass—there is no western peripheral route. Why has Aberdeen been denied a decent bypass over many years when just about every other comparable city in Europe has one? We have perhaps been a bit slow in pressing our case, but that has not been so in recent times. The minister is undoubtedly aware of the depth of feeling and I hope that this debate will reinforce that.

After extensive public consultation, the former Grampian Regional Council decided that the route should run from the Charlestown interchange on the A90 south of Aberdeen to the A96 at Craibstone and on to the A90 north of Parkhill.

Other members will put their points to the minister, but my principal case is that the present infrastructure is totally inadequate to serve the needs of a strategic national economic resource— that is how the minister should approach the issue. The construction of a western peripheral route round Aberdeen is not just a local solution to a local problem, but a national solution to a national problem, requiring a major financial input from the Scottish Government. I trust that the minister will be able to give a positive response.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4828182+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1781E188P474C705346", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Peripheral Route, Aberdeen", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26657, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 295.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 295.0, "ID": 26657, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McGugan, Irene", "ID": 1781, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Irene McGugan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Irene McGugan (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 319.0, "ContributionID": 705346, "EditedText": "I, too, wish to support the creation of the western peripheral route, which will contribute to and be important for the economic future of Aberdeen. I echo the calls for the project to proceed with the full financial support of the Scottish Executive and without delay. However, I want to reflect some of the concern that is felt by residents of communities to the west of Aberdeen, who favour serious reconsideration of the proposed route. As recently as 1994, there were still around 15 options under review, and the current route was confirmed by Grampian Regional Council only shortly before reorganisation in 1996. This has never been a single-option project. A strong argument against the proposed route, which was expressed by respondents to a household survey that was carried out in the area, is that the western peripheral route should go round the city and not through it. Aberdeen has an eccentric shape and extends out through Cults to Culter, and many people feel that the western peripheral route should skirt the western margin of Culter. The current option was selected in preference to that because it was claimed that routes further out would do little to relieve traffic congestion in the city. However, Grampian Enterprise, in 1997, and the Scottish Office, in 1998, accepted that the western peripheral route would not substantially alleviate commuter car congestion, so it may be that that argument for the route's location is no longer valid. As has been mentioned, the North Deeside Road, which serves this area, is already heavily congested at peak hours, and the superimposition of a north-south flow on the west- east flow at specific intersections will, it is feared, result in even worse congestion. As has been mentioned, Aberdeen chamber of commerce and the city traders association have acknowledged that the western peripheral route will help to promote a new corridor of investment and development. Although it is accepted that land is needed for residential, industrial and commercial development, residents feel that the western peripheral route is putting the green belt at risk. The city should be proud of the way in which, over the decades, green belt policy has achieved what it set out to do, especially the aim of preserving areas of unspoilt countryside as close to the city as possible and for the benefit of the whole population of Aberdeen. Among the natural assets that would be badly affected are the Newton Dee and Camphill Rudolf Steiner schools. People on those campuses would suffer greatly from the noise and disruption. Moreover, to run a dual carriageway through land that includes one of the longest-established organic farms in the north-east is not acceptable. In the 1994 environmental impact assessment it was concluded that \"the deleterious effects of the Western option on the Camphill Estates are severe and may be sufficient to make that route unacceptable.\" While fully endorsing what has been said about the benefits to Aberdeen and Aberdeenshire of the western peripheral route, I suggest that the location of the route may warrant some reconsideration.", "EditedTextHTML": "I, too, wish to support the creation of the western peripheral route, which will contribute to and be important for the economic future of Aberdeen. I echo the calls for the project to proceed with the full financial support of the Scottish Executive and without delay.

However, I want to reflect some of the concern that is felt by residents of communities to the west of Aberdeen, who favour serious reconsideration of the proposed route. As recently as 1994, there were still around 15 options under review, and the current route was confirmed by Grampian Regional Council only shortly before reorganisation in 1996. This has never been a single-option project.

A strong argument against the proposed route, which was expressed by respondents to a household survey that was carried out in the area, is that the western peripheral route should go round the city and not through it. Aberdeen has an eccentric shape and extends out through Cults to Culter, and many people feel that the western peripheral route should skirt the western margin of Culter.

The current option was selected in preference to that because it was claimed that routes further out would do little to relieve traffic congestion in the city. However, Grampian Enterprise, in 1997, and the Scottish Office, in 1998, accepted that the western peripheral route would not substantially alleviate commuter car congestion, so it may be that that argument for the route's location is no longer valid. As has been mentioned, the North Deeside Road, which serves this area, is already heavily congested at peak hours, and the superimposition of a north-south flow on the west- east flow at specific intersections will, it is feared, result in even worse congestion.

As has been mentioned, Aberdeen chamber of commerce and the city traders association have acknowledged that the western peripheral route will help to promote a new corridor of investment and development. Although it is accepted that land is needed for residential, industrial and commercial development, residents feel that the western peripheral route is putting the green belt at risk. The city should be proud of the way in which, over the decades, green belt policy has achieved what it set out to do, especially the aim of preserving areas of unspoilt countryside as close to the city as possible and for the benefit of the whole population of Aberdeen.

Among the natural assets that would be badly affected are the Newton Dee and Camphill Rudolf Steiner schools. People on those campuses would suffer greatly from the noise and disruption. Moreover, to run a dual carriageway through land that includes one of the longest-established organic farms in the north-east is not acceptable. In the 1994 environmental impact assessment it was concluded that

\"the deleterious effects of the Western option on the Camphill Estates are severe and may be sufficient to make that route unacceptable.\"

While fully endorsing what has been said about the benefits to Aberdeen and Aberdeenshire of the western peripheral route, I suggest that the location of the route may warrant some reconsideration.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4828182+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C705347", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Peripheral Route, Aberdeen", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26657, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 295.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 295.0, "ID": 26657, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 321.0, "ContributionID": 705347, "EditedText": "I apologise to members who have not been called. The remedy is to keep interventions brief. I call Sarah Boyack to wind up the debate.", "EditedTextHTML": "I apologise to members who have not been called. The remedy is to keep interventions brief. I call Sarah Boyack to wind up the debate.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4828182+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C705353", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Peripheral Route, Aberdeen", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26657, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 295.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 295.0, "ID": 26657, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Davidson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 334.0, "ContributionID": 705353, "EditedText": "I deeply regret the fact that the minister has not highlighted the problems of people who live to the north and north-west of Aberdeen. Vital industry is at risk because of a lack of transport infrastructure, and I am disappointed that the minister has not addressed that. Before she sits down, I hope that the minister may be able to comment on her plans to allow the north-east corner, even as far along as the Moray coast, to integrate more with the south.", "EditedTextHTML": "I deeply regret the fact that the minister has not highlighted the problems of people who live to the north and north-west of Aberdeen. Vital industry is at risk because of a lack of transport infrastructure, and I am disappointed that the minister has not addressed that. Before she sits down, I hope that the minister

may be able to comment on her plans to allow the north-east corner, even as far along as the Moray coast, to integrate more with the south.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4828182+00:00" }, { "ID": "C705357", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Peripheral Route, Aberdeen", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26657, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 295.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 295.0, "ID": 26657, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 342.0, "ContributionID": 705357, "EditedText": "Meeting closed at 17:34.", "EditedTextHTML": "Meeting closed at 17:34.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4828182+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C705305", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolved Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26655, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 127.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 127.0, "ID": 26655, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 240.0, "ContributionID": 705305, "EditedText": "It is difficult to judge how legislation has changed materially from when it is agreed to in principle by this Parliament when it has not been published. Will Mr Mackay explain how the blank cheque is filled in by this process?", "EditedTextHTML": "It is difficult to judge how legislation has changed materially from when it is agreed to in principle by this Parliament when it has not been published. Will Mr Mackay explain how the blank cheque is filled in by this process?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:21:23.9742649+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C705210", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Freedom of Information", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26653, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 29.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 29.0, "ID": 26653, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 30.0, "ContributionID": 705210, "EditedText": "The first item of business this afternoon is a statement by the Deputy First Minister on freedom of information. He will take questions at the end of the statement and there should, therefore, be no interventions. This item of business will last for half an hour.", "EditedTextHTML": "The first item of business this afternoon is a statement by the Deputy First Minister on freedom of information. He will take questions at the end of the statement and there should, therefore, be no interventions. This item of business will last for half an hour.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1863E284P532C705213", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Freedom of Information", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26653, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 29.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 29.0, "ID": 26653, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Cunningham, Roseanna", "ID": 1863, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Perth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Roseanna Cunningham", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Roseanna Cunningham (Perth) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 37.0, "ContributionID": 705213, "EditedText": "Thank you, Mr Presiding Officer. I listened with interest to what the minister said, but I have some concerns, not least of which are those that relate to the unnecessary delay. Can he be more open about his time scale for the introduction of legislation? I fear that we are missing a great opportunity. Can the minister elaborate on the precise strength of the code of conduct, because it does not appear to usher in any change at all? He said that the code will \"preserve existing rights of access\".That phraseology suggests that the code will make no real change, which will be a matter of great concern. Will the minister clarify that aspect of the code? It appears not to contain any legal rights or responsibilities—unless I have missed something fundamental. Will the minister expand on the time scale involved and explain why he feels it necessary effectively to wait until Westminster's deliberations are over? That is a rather unfortunate precedent to set. Will he clarify precisely what strength the code of conduct will have when it comes to implementation? What remedies will people have if the code is breached? I fear that the minister's statement is sending out a signal that not much will change.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you, Mr Presiding Officer. I listened with interest to what the minister said, but I have some concerns, not least of which are those that relate to the unnecessary delay. Can he be more open about his time scale for the introduction of legislation? I fear that we are missing a great opportunity.

Can the minister elaborate on the precise strength of the code of conduct, because it does not appear to usher in any change at all? He said that the code will

\"preserve existing rights of access\".

That phraseology suggests that the code will make no real change, which will be a matter of great concern. Will the minister clarify that aspect of the code? It appears not to contain any legal rights or responsibilities—unless I have missed something fundamental.

Will the minister expand on the time scale involved and explain why he feels it necessary effectively to wait until Westminster's deliberations are over? That is a rather unfortunate precedent to set. Will he clarify precisely what strength the code of conduct will have when it comes to implementation? What remedies will people have if the code is breached? I fear that the minister's statement is sending out a signal that not much will change.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2090E83P266C705217", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Freedom of Information", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26653, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 29.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 29.0, "ID": 26653, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAllion, Mr John", "ID": 2090, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dundee East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John McAllion", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr John McAllion (Dundee East) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 45.0, "ContributionID": 705217, "EditedText": "The minister will be aware of the growing concern across Scotland that the Crown Office is failing to use the full force of the law in cases where death is caused by dangerous driving. For example, some of my constituents have been denied access to police reports into fatal accidents—even when members of their family have been killed. Can he guarantee that such police files, along with all other official files and reports on accidents and accident inquiries, will be available under the freedom of information legislation?", "EditedTextHTML": "The minister will be aware of the growing concern across Scotland that the Crown Office is failing to use the full force of the law in cases where death is caused by dangerous driving. For example, some of my constituents have been denied access to police reports into fatal accidents—even when members of their family have been killed. Can he guarantee that such police files, along with all other official files and reports on accidents and accident inquiries, will be available under the freedom of information legislation?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C705221", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Freedom of Information", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26653, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 29.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 29.0, "ID": 26653, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan (Falkirk West): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 53.0, "ContributionID": 705221, "EditedText": "Is the minister aware that the Westminster draft bill on freedom of information has not received a warm response from people who, over many years, have campaigned for such a bill? It is hoped that the Scottish Parliament can do much better than Westminster. Security and defence are reserved matters, but there are many incidents in Scotland that arise from defence and security operations. Does the minister envisage that the freedom of information bill that will be passed by this Parliament— hopefully—will be able to shed any light on matters such as the tragic crash of the Chinook helicopter on the Mull of Kintyre or the operations of the killer Trident submarines in Scottish territorial waters?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is the minister aware that the Westminster draft bill on freedom of information has not received a warm response from people who, over many years, have campaigned for such a bill? It is hoped that the Scottish Parliament can do much better than Westminster.

Security and defence are reserved matters, but there are many incidents in Scotland that arise from defence and security operations. Does the minister envisage that the freedom of information bill that will be passed by this Parliament— hopefully—will be able to shed any light on matters such as the tragic crash of the Chinook helicopter on the Mull of Kintyre or the operations of the killer Trident submarines in Scottish territorial waters?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C705225", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Freedom of Information", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26653, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 29.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 29.0, "ID": 26653, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 61.0, "ContributionID": 705225, "EditedText": "Does not the minister's statement suggest that this bill will be much more watered down than that which he envisaged some 16 years ago? Are the practicalities of government now registering with him? He referred to the code's ensuring that Scotland was no worse off than the rest of the UK. Is not this a Westminster-led bill?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does not the minister's statement suggest that this bill will be much more watered down than that which he envisaged some 16 years ago? Are the practicalities of government now registering with him? He referred to the code's ensuring that Scotland was no worse off than the rest of the UK. Is not this a Westminster-led bill?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C705226", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Freedom of Information", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26653, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 29.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 29.0, "ID": 26653, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 63.0, "ContributionID": 705226, "EditedText": "I think I am correct in saying that when I advocated a freedom of information bill in 1983 it was a criminal offence to tell anyone where the Post Office Tower in London was, and it was a criminal offence for the head gardener at the Royal Botanic Gardens in Inverleith to tell anyone in which order he watered the plants. We have come a considerable way since then in changing the culture in government. I assure Mr Gallie that this will be a Scottish bill. It will be for this Parliament to pass it, to move amendments to it, and to consider it. It clearly makes sense to consider the freedom of information legislation that is now in draft form at Westminster, the comments that have been made on it and the parliamentary scrutiny that it has undergone. However, it will be for this Parliament and its committees to devise the arrangements that we believe are suitable for Scottish circumstances.", "EditedTextHTML": "I think I am correct in saying that when I advocated a freedom of information bill in 1983 it was a criminal offence to tell anyone where the Post Office Tower in London was, and it was a criminal offence for the head gardener at the Royal Botanic Gardens in Inverleith to tell anyone in which order he watered the plants. We have come a considerable way since then in changing the culture in government.

I assure Mr Gallie that this will be a Scottish bill. It will be for this Parliament to pass it, to move amendments to it, and to consider it. It clearly makes sense to consider the freedom of information legislation that is now in draft form at Westminster, the comments that have been made on it and the parliamentary scrutiny that it has undergone. However, it will be for this Parliament and its committees to devise the arrangements that we believe are suitable for Scottish circumstances.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C705234", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Freedom of Information", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26653, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 29.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 29.0, "ID": 26653, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 79.0, "ContributionID": 705234, "EditedText": "I am sorry, Mr Young, we are out of time. I have taken the Deputy First Minister's hint in response to Margaret Ewing's question about parliamentary privilege and will circulate a detailed note in the business bulletin on the extent of privilege in this chamber, as it is slightly different from that at Westminster.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry, Mr Young, we are out of time.

I have taken the Deputy First Minister's hint in response to Margaret Ewing's question about parliamentary privilege and will circulate a detailed note in the business bulletin on the extent of privilege in this chamber, as it is slightly different from that at Westminster.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2123E103P242C705241", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Education Bill (Consultation)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26654, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 81.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 81.0, "ID": 26654, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Chisholm, Malcolm", "ID": 2123, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh North and Leith" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Malcolm Chisholm", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 95.0, "ContributionID": 705241, "EditedText": "Will the minister clarify the role of the Education, Culture and Sport Committee in relation to the draft bill? Will the committee be able to hear witnesses and give a view at the draft stage, as I expected, or will its role begin only once the bill is fully published?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister clarify the role of the Education, Culture and Sport Committee in relation to the draft bill? Will the committee be able to hear witnesses and give a view at the draft stage, as I expected, or will its role begin only once the bill is fully published?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C705242", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Education Bill (Consultation)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26654, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 81.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 81.0, "ID": 26654, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Galbraith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 97.0, "ContributionID": 705242, "EditedText": "As Malcolm Chisholm knows, the committees are their own masters. They will get a copy of the draft consultation document and it is for them to pursue the matter as they wish. I am sure that they will want to contribute responses.", "EditedTextHTML": "As Malcolm Chisholm knows, the committees are their own masters. They will get a copy of the draft consultation document and it is for them to pursue the matter as they wish. I am sure that they will want to contribute responses.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C705239", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Education Bill (Consultation)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26654, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 81.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 81.0, "ID": 26654, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Brian Monteith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 91.0, "ContributionID": 705239, "EditedText": "I thank the minister for making the text of his statement available early enough for us to give consideration to it. I welcome a period of consultation on the forthcoming bill, but I am naturally quite disappointed that we cannot have the bill prior to the recess. If the document that is to be released in early July is consultative, I am not sure why we cannot see it before the recess. The minister said that the consultation would be the first to launch a bill. Does that mean that it will be the first bill or that there will be other bills that will not have any consultation? I doubt that it is the latter and think that it is likely to be the former. If that is the case, we are not likely see an amended draft and a bill until November at the earliest. Does that mean that—this being the first bill—we will see no bills in this Parliament until November or possibly even next year? It would be useful if the minister gave more detail of the likely timetable for consultation and indicated when the chamber and the committees will have an opportunity to discuss the bill. Will the minister tell us why he did not use the word employer in his statement when he was talking about partnership? It is important that the education that we give our children is world class and is tailored to ensure that they can not only go into academia but obtain employment and contribute to society as a whole. Will the minister clarify the aspects of the bill on which he has had consultation? He says that that might not be possible. A simple example is that when community schools—an idea that was first taken up by the Conservatives in the mid-1970s— were relaunched last year, many agencies such as social work and health were involved and brought into the schools. Does he intend to involve the police in community schools, as they were left out? Community schools are used to bring those agencies together for the benefit of the community, so it is important that the police, who have much to contribute on drug education, should be involved. I should be grateful if the minister responded to some of those comments.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the minister for making the text of his statement available early enough for us to give consideration to it. I welcome a period of consultation on the forthcoming bill, but I am naturally quite disappointed that we cannot have the bill prior to the recess. If the document that is to be released in early July is consultative, I am not sure why we cannot see it before the recess.

The minister said that the consultation would be the first to launch a bill. Does that mean that it will be the first bill or that there will be other bills that will not have any consultation? I doubt that it is the latter and think that it is likely to be the former. If that is the case, we are not likely see an amended draft and a bill until November at the earliest. Does that mean that—this being the first bill—we will see no bills in this Parliament until November or possibly even next year? It would be useful if the minister gave more detail of the likely timetable for consultation and indicated when the chamber and the committees will have an opportunity to discuss the bill.

Will the minister tell us why he did not use the word employer in his statement when he was talking about partnership? It is important that the education that we give our children is world class and is tailored to ensure that they can not only go into academia but obtain employment and contribute to society as a whole.

Will the minister clarify the aspects of the bill on which he has had consultation? He says that that might not be possible. A simple example is that when community schools—an idea that was first taken up by the Conservatives in the mid-1970s— were relaunched last year, many agencies such as social work and health were involved and brought into the schools. Does he intend to involve the police in community schools, as they were left out? Community schools are used to bring those agencies together for the benefit of the community, so it is important that the police, who have much to contribute on drug education, should be involved. I should be grateful if the minister responded to some of those comments.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C705246", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Education Bill (Consultation)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26654, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 81.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 81.0, "ID": 26654, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Galbraith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 105.0, "ContributionID": 705246, "EditedText": "I could not agree more with Mr Stone on the issue of community schools. Only yesterday, I was at the community school in the Raploch, and I was much impressed by the teachers' commitment and by the high standards. In all the schools that I have visited, that has been my experience—commitment and high standards of education. I commend them. Our plan is to keep rolling new community schools forward. I do not see any limit to them. The first batch is out and there are two further batches to come. As we roll them out, our commitment is to two in each education authority. I also have a vision that such schools can be in any area, as long as there is a concept of pulling together. I agree with Mr Stone that we should not have change for the sake of change. That is the worst reason for change. Change should be introduced only when it is necessary to achieve the objectives that have to be delivered, and for that reason alone. In this case, our objective is continuous improvement, and we want to achieve that. However, I can assure members that this is a time for a bit of stability, and for us to settle down, put plans in place and consider what we have done. That is not to say that we do not have to have continuous alterations and improvements, but major, continuous overhauls are in the interests of no one.", "EditedTextHTML": "I could not agree more with Mr Stone on the issue of community schools. Only yesterday, I was at the community school in the Raploch, and I was much impressed by the teachers' commitment and by the high standards. In all the schools that I have visited, that has been my experience—commitment and high standards of education. I commend them.

Our plan is to keep rolling new community schools forward. I do not see any limit to them. The first batch is out and there are two further batches to come. As we roll them out, our commitment is to two in each education authority. I also have a vision that such schools can be in any area, as long as there is a concept of pulling together.

I agree with Mr Stone that we should not have change for the sake of change. That is the worst reason for change. Change should be introduced only when it is necessary to achieve the objectives that have to be delivered, and for that reason alone. In this case, our objective is continuous improvement, and we want to achieve that. However, I can assure members that this is a time for a bit of stability, and for us to settle down, put plans in place and consider what we have done. That is not to say that we do not have to have continuous alterations and improvements, but major, continuous overhauls are in the interests of no one.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1775E171P452C705247", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Education Bill (Consultation)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26654, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 81.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 81.0, "ID": 26654, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeod, Fiona", "ID": 1775, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona McLeod", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona McLeod (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 107.0, "ContributionID": 705247, "EditedText": "I wish to ask the minister two questions, one of which is being asked again. Why cannot the document be published before the end of July? As he knows, schools in Scotland are now well into the final countdown period to the summer holidays for both pupils and teachers, and, by delaying the publication of the document for two weeks, he is effectively taking six weeks from the consultation period. On the consultation process, the minister said in his statement: \"The people of Scotland will, therefore, have an unprecedented opportunity to express their views\". He went on to say that young people's views were very important to him. However, the list of organisations to which information will be disseminated consists of the same organisations and the same dissemination routes that were used for the white paper, \"Targeting Excellence\". There is no mention of pupil councils, nor of the many youth forums that have been established around the country; perhaps most glaringly, there is no mention of the Scottish Youth Parliament that is to meet for the first time on 30 June. It is very important for young people to be consulted in their own forum, not through adult forums. I hope that the minister will ensure that that happens. Education is a major priority for Scottish people. To reiterate Nicola Sturgeon's comments, this statement offers no vision of a truly open, accessible and participative consultation process for our first major piece of legislation.", "EditedTextHTML": "I wish to ask the minister two questions, one of which is being asked again. Why cannot the document be published before the end of July? As he knows, schools in Scotland are now well into the final countdown period to the summer holidays for both pupils and teachers, and, by delaying the publication of the document for two weeks, he is effectively taking six weeks from the consultation period.

On the consultation process, the minister said in his statement:

\"The people of Scotland will, therefore, have an unprecedented opportunity to express their views\".

He went on to say that young people's views were very important to him. However, the list of organisations to which information will be disseminated consists of the same organisations and the same dissemination routes that were used for the white paper, \"Targeting Excellence\". There is no mention of pupil councils, nor of the many youth forums that have been established around the country; perhaps most glaringly, there is no mention of the Scottish Youth Parliament that is to meet for the first time on 30 June. It is very important for young people to be consulted in their own forum, not through adult forums. I hope that the minister will ensure that that happens.

Education is a major priority for Scottish people. To reiterate Nicola Sturgeon's comments, this statement offers no vision of a truly open, accessible and participative consultation process for our first major piece of legislation.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C705250", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Education Bill (Consultation)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26654, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 81.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 81.0, "ID": 26654, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Galbraith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 113.0, "ContributionID": 705250, "EditedText": "I am grateful to Tommy for his comments, but he will know that setting targets for class sizes does not require legislation such as this bill. That is dealt with through executive action, but I agree with what he says about class sizes. The bill is about continuous improvement and about continually raising the standards of school education. I will apply the same principle in the education service as I applied in the health service: to drive up the standards in the state sector to make it so good that everyone will want to be a part of it.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful to Tommy for his comments, but he will know that setting targets for class sizes does not require legislation such as this bill. That is dealt with through executive action, but I agree with what he says about class sizes.

The bill is about continuous improvement and about continually raising the standards of school education. I will apply the same principle in the education service as I applied in the health service: to drive up the standards in the state sector to make it so good that everyone will want to be a part of it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2234E7P20C705254", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Education Bill (Consultation)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26654, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 81.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 81.0, "ID": 26654, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Aitken, Bill", "ID": 2234, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bill Aitken", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bill Aitken: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 121.0, "ContributionID": 705254, "EditedText": "I said \"persuasion\".", "EditedTextHTML": "I said \"persuasion\".

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C705257", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolved Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26655, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 127.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 127.0, "ID": 26655, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 128.0, "ContributionID": 705257, "EditedText": "The next item of business is a debate on two motions on devolved legislation to be considered by the UK Parliament. The debate will be divided into two sections. The first section will be on motion S1M-60, in the name of Susan Deacon, on the Food Standards Bill. At 4.30 pm, we will move on to debate motion S1M-61, in the name of Angus Mackay, on the Financial Services and Markets Bill, the electronic communications bill and the limited liability partnerships bill. As always, I ask members to keep their comments brief to allow as many members as possible to speak. Will members who wish to speak in the debate on the Food Standards Bill please press their request-to-speak buttons as soon as possible? I call Susan Deacon to speak on and to move motion S1M-60 on the Food Standards Bill.", "EditedTextHTML": "The next item of business is a debate on two motions on devolved legislation to be considered by the UK Parliament. The debate will be divided into two sections. The first section will be on motion S1M-60, in the name of Susan Deacon, on the Food Standards Bill. At 4.30 pm, we will move on to debate motion S1M-61, in the name of Angus Mackay, on the Financial Services and Markets Bill, the electronic communications bill and the limited liability partnerships bill.

As always, I ask members to keep their comments brief to allow as many members as possible to speak. Will members who wish to speak in the debate on the Food Standards Bill please press their request-to-speak buttons as soon as possible? I call Susan Deacon to speak on and to move motion S1M-60 on the Food Standards Bill.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C705261", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolved Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26655, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 127.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 127.0, "ID": 26655, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 138.0, "ContributionID": 705261, "EditedText": "We are waiting for the microphone to come on.", "EditedTextHTML": "We are waiting for the microphone to come on.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C705270", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolved Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26655, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 127.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 127.0, "ID": 26655, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 157.0, "ContributionID": 705270, "EditedText": "I would be grateful if members kept their remarks to around three or four minutes.", "EditedTextHTML": "I would be grateful if members kept their remarks to around three or four minutes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C705276", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolved Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26655, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 127.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 127.0, "ID": 26655, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 173.0, "ContributionID": 705276, "EditedText": "I do not doubt their statements. I was suggesting that, although the statements were based on science, the public was not reassured by them. The key issue in the setting up of the agency must be to ensure that the public has confidence in the agency. The agency must be seen to be independent, particularly of the political process, the food lobby and the consumer lobby. It must clearly be seen to be an independent agency whose sole concern is food safety and which judges all the issues that concern food safety on the best scientific advice that is available. If the agency achieves those objectives, it will be the greatest boost that the food industry will get in the coming years. We must all hope that it frees the food industry from the food scare crises that bedevil our industry year after year. I support the motion wholeheartedly.", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not doubt their statements. I was suggesting that, although the statements were based on science, the public was not reassured by them.

The key issue in the setting up of the agency must be to ensure that the public has confidence in the agency. The agency must be seen to be independent, particularly of the political process, the food lobby and the consumer lobby. It must clearly be seen to be an independent agency whose sole concern is food safety and which judges all the issues that concern food safety on the best scientific advice that is available.

If the agency achieves those objectives, it will be the greatest boost that the food industry will get in the coming years. We must all hope that it frees the food industry from the food scare crises that bedevil our industry year after year. I support the motion wholeheartedly.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C705278", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolved Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26655, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 127.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 127.0, "ID": 26655, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 178.0, "ContributionID": 705278, "EditedText": "We move to the wind-up speeches from the Conservatives and the Scottish National party. They will both have four or five minutes.", "EditedTextHTML": "We move to the wind-up speeches from the Conservatives and the

Scottish National party. They will both have four or five minutes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1916E38P70C705287", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolved Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26655, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 127.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 127.0, "ID": 26655, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Ben", "ID": 1916, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ben Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ben Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 198.0, "ContributionID": 705287, "EditedText": "I simply want to raise a point of order. I wonder if Mrs Ullrich would get to the point. We are debating the food standards agency, not cooking with mother.", "EditedTextHTML": "I simply want to raise a point of order. I wonder if Mrs Ullrich would get to the point. We are debating the food standards agency, not cooking with mother.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1811E172P455C705288", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolved Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26655, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 127.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 127.0, "ID": 26655, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ullrich, Kay", "ID": 1811, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kay Ullrich", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Kay Ullrich: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 200.0, "ContributionID": 705288, "EditedText": "I was trying not to say so, but it is usually from the Conservative party that we get the \"Let them eat soup\" question. I do not know whether he learned to make soup at his granny's knee, but it is a lost art form.", "EditedTextHTML": "I was trying not to say so, but it is usually from the Conservative party that we get the \"Let them eat soup\" question. I do not know whether he learned to make soup at his granny's knee, but it is a lost art form.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1768E72P274C705289", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolved Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26655, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 127.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 127.0, "ID": 26655, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Murray, Elaine", "ID": 1768, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumfries" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Murray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Elaine Murray (Dumfries) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 202.0, "ContributionID": 705289, "EditedText": "I agree with virtually everything that has been said, but I do not see its relevance to the food standards agency.", "EditedTextHTML": "I agree with virtually everything that has been said, but I do not see its relevance to the food standards agency.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C705293", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolved Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26655, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 127.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 127.0, "ID": 26655, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 210.0, "ContributionID": 705293, "EditedText": "I call Susan Deacon to wind up the debate.", "EditedTextHTML": "I call Susan Deacon to wind up the debate.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1888E265P358C705295", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolved Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26655, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 127.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 127.0, "ID": 26655, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morgan, Alasdair", "ID": 1888, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Galloway and Upper Nithsdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morgan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alasdair Morgan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 215.0, "ContributionID": 705295, "EditedText": "Will the minister explain why making up our own mind means that we will have to postpone anything? As far as I can tell, the clauses that relate specifically to Scotland—and any other general clauses that affect Scotland— are already written. On 2 July we are going on holiday for two months. What about giving up our holiday and passing the bill ourselves?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister explain why making up our own mind means that we will have to postpone anything? As far as I can tell, the clauses that relate specifically to Scotland—and any other general clauses that affect Scotland— are already written. On 2 July we are going on holiday for two months. What about giving up our holiday and passing the bill ourselves?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C705296", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolved Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26655, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 127.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 127.0, "ID": 26655, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 217.0, "ContributionID": 705296, "EditedText": "Mr Morgan has just answered his own question. Perhaps I can remind him of some of his earlier comments, with which I am now very familiar because he made the same points in Westminster earlier this week. I am pleased to see that he is recycling his speeches effectively. He said that it was only a matter of days before the power was transferred to this Parliament and, therefore, the bill should have been put off until after that. How do we put it off until after that? If we had put off the issue until after the summer, we could not have got on with the job of establishing a food standards agency. The debate is not just about the establishment of any food standards agency; it is about the model on which this one is based. Mr Morgan also asked for consultation. Perhaps he has missed the point that there was an extensive consultation process in Scotland and elsewhere in the UK that led up to the publication of the bill. The principle of the establishment of a UK food standards agency is one that has been endorsed both north and south of the border. However, let me not fall into the trap of concentrating on constitutional issues. In the few minutes that I have left, I want to pick up some of the other points that have been raised. First, on the point about the levy, much as I would like to say that it was David McLetchie's intervention in the issue that caused a change of heart on the part of the Government, I suspect that it was the widespread view that was expressed across the country. I am pleased that in this case we have seen a listening Government in action. A couple of members raised the question of the location of the Scottish arm of the agency. As Lewis Macdonald said, the establishment of the agency will be a matter for consideration in the future, after we have endorsed the principle of the bill. Many detailed points were raised about charges relating to the meat hygiene service and the issue of labelling, and reference was made to genetically modified foods. We do not have time to enter into the details of those issues today, but I make two points. First, the complexity of the legislative position that governs those issues is an illustration of why it is important to have an agency that can assist us in the process of interpreting legislation and pursuing action in Scotland. All those issues are bound up by EU law, although this Parliament also has powers to act on them. Secondly, now that this Parliament is in place we have a real opportunity to discuss all those issues sensibly. I am struck by the fact that members from all parties have said, during this debate, that they agree with the principle of having measured and reasoned consideration of food safety matters, and by the fact that they have also stated the importance of accepting medical and scientific advice on such issues. I hope that the same approach will be taken when we discuss specific food safety issues, such as genetically modified foods and beef on the bone. The Executive is determined to take scientific and medical advice on board when considering such matters. Finally, mention was made of Sam Galbraith's contribution to the development of the bill that we are now discussing and the consultation process surrounding the creation of the agency. I, too, pay tribute to his role in that process. I am very pleased that we now have the chance to establish the agency. It is the right thing to do for Scotland, and we will have a strong voice in its establishment. It will provide an opportunity for us to rebuild consumer confidence in food and to give good advice to people about food safety matters. I hope that we can use the powers and processes of this Parliament effectively in dealing with this issue, and I hope that all members will support this motion. I move,That the Parliament endorses the principle of a UK Food Standards Agency as set out in the Food Standards Bill and agrees that the Bill should be considered by the UK Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Morgan has just answered his own question. Perhaps I can remind him of some of his earlier comments, with which I am now very familiar because he made the same points in Westminster earlier this week. I am pleased to see that he is recycling his speeches effectively. He said that it was only a matter of days before the power was transferred to this Parliament and, therefore, the bill should have been put off until after that. How do we put it off until after that? If we had put off the issue until after the summer, we could not have got on with the job of establishing a food standards agency. The debate is not just about the establishment of any food standards agency; it is about the model on which this one is based.

Mr Morgan also asked for consultation. Perhaps he has missed the point that there was an extensive consultation process in Scotland and elsewhere in the UK that led up to the publication of the bill. The principle of the establishment of a UK food standards agency is one that has been endorsed both north and south of the border.

However, let me not fall into the trap of concentrating on constitutional issues. In the few minutes that I have left, I want to pick up some of the other points that have been raised. First, on the point about the levy, much as I would like to say that it was David McLetchie's intervention in the issue that caused a change of heart on the part of the Government, I suspect that it was the widespread view that was expressed across the country. I am pleased that in this case we have seen a listening Government in action.

A couple of members raised the question of the location of the Scottish arm of the agency. As Lewis Macdonald said, the establishment of the agency will be a matter for consideration in the future, after we have endorsed the principle of the bill.

Many detailed points were raised about charges relating to the meat hygiene service and the issue of labelling, and reference was made to genetically modified foods. We do not have time to enter into the details of those issues today, but I make two points. First, the complexity of the legislative position that governs those issues is an illustration of why it is important to have an agency that can assist us in the process of interpreting legislation and pursuing action in Scotland. All those issues are bound up by EU law, although this Parliament also has powers to act on them.

Secondly, now that this Parliament is in place we have a real opportunity to discuss all those issues sensibly. I am struck by the fact that members from all parties have said, during this debate, that they agree with the principle of having measured and reasoned consideration of food safety matters, and by the fact that they have also stated the importance of accepting medical and scientific advice on such issues. I hope that the same approach will be taken when we discuss specific food safety issues, such as genetically modified foods and beef on the bone. The Executive is determined to take scientific and medical advice on board when considering such matters.

Finally, mention was made of Sam Galbraith's contribution to the development of the bill that we are now discussing and the consultation process surrounding the creation of the agency. I, too, pay tribute to his role in that process. I am very pleased that we now have the chance to establish the agency. It is the right thing to do for Scotland, and we will have a strong voice in its establishment. It will provide an opportunity for us to rebuild consumer confidence in food and to give good advice to people about food safety matters. I hope that we can use the powers and processes of this Parliament effectively in dealing with this issue, and I hope that all members will support this motion.

I move,

That the Parliament endorses the principle of a UK Food Standards Agency as set out in the Food Standards Bill and agrees that the Bill should be considered by the UK Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C705302", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolved Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26655, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 127.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 127.0, "ID": 26655, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Annabel Goldie (West of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 232.0, "ContributionID": 705302, "EditedText": "It is a little difficult to bring any sense of passion to this debate, with topics such as the Financial Services and Markets Bill, the electronic communications bill and the limited liability partnerships bill. It would be an exaggeration to say that the people of Scotland talk of little else. Mr Mackay will probably be relieved to hear that Conservative members are broadly in agreement with what he proposed, but I have been asked to flag up one or two specific concerns relating to the Financial Services and Markets Bill. Mr Swinney has already alluded to the concerns that I hold and to which I was alerted by the Law Society of Scotland. If I speak with conviction, it is that of the zealot of poacher turned gamekeeper. From a previous existence as a solicitor dealing with investment work, I know that no body could have been more rigorous, robust or harassing than the Law Society in its regulation of solicitor members. That brings me to the more serious point that the bill apparently does not seek amendment to the Solicitors (Scotland) Act 1980, which is the primary legislation governing Scottish solicitors and regulates what solicitors handling investment business must do or should not do. There is grave concern that a dangerous duplication will arise: not only an unwelcome one for solicitor members in Scotland who may find themselves subject to two lots of administrative charges—which at first estimate will be hefty—but one which could cause confusion for consumers. That is distinctly undesirable. There is a perception—and it may be worth investigating—that the Law Society of Scotland and its member solicitors would be content to remain with the existing adequate framework. In Scotland we have the unique virtue of an independent legal system and we have in place a satisfactory framework for the regulation of solicitors who handle investment business. Allowing a duplication to arise is an unnecessary complication and an unwelcome expense. I hope that the minister will look carefully to see whether any steps can be taken to preserve the integrity of what already exists in Scotland and is in every respect admirable, to avoid bringing in any unnecessary confusion. I also draw the minister's attention to some of the definitions in the proposed bill, specifically to the distinction between an investment and investment business. In the interests of clarity and legal certainty that should be defined in the primary legislation; it should not be left to the statutory instrument. Due regard should be given to that important point. I referred in my general remarks on the possible confusion to the cost of regulation. The Law Society of Scotland has ascertained from the FSA that the likely cost to Scottish solicitor practitioners will be a minimum of £1,000 for authorisation. That contrasts sharply with the existing charge of £135 imposed by the Law Society. I gather that the FSA has accepted that it will be neither as efficient nor as economical as the Law Society in regulating the investment business of Scottish solicitors. The minister may wish to give significant attention to that. On a matter of corporate governance, the Hampel committee on corporate governance confirmed the recommendation of the Cadbury committee that in principle the roles of chairman and chief executive officer should, for obvious and understandable reasons, be kept separate in every public company. It is logical that that principle should be extended to comparable positions in the FSA. That is in no sense meant to denigrate or diminish the stature of Mr Howard Davies, who has a fine reputation; it is meant to point out that a distinction should be drawn between those two very separate roles. The Conservatives welcome Mr Mackay's proposal, but we hope that regard will be given to the very real concerns of the legal system of Scotland and its practitioners.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is a little difficult to bring any sense of passion to this debate, with topics such as the Financial Services and Markets Bill, the electronic communications bill and the limited liability partnerships bill. It would be an exaggeration to say that the people of Scotland talk of little else.

Mr Mackay will probably be relieved to hear that Conservative members are broadly in agreement with what he proposed, but I have been asked to flag up one or two specific concerns relating to the Financial Services and Markets Bill. Mr Swinney has already alluded to the concerns that I hold and to which I was alerted by the Law Society of Scotland. If I speak with conviction, it is that of the zealot of poacher turned gamekeeper. From a previous existence as a solicitor dealing with investment work, I know that no body could have been more rigorous, robust or harassing than the Law Society in its regulation of solicitor members.

That brings me to the more serious point that the bill apparently does not seek amendment to the Solicitors (Scotland) Act 1980, which is the primary legislation governing Scottish solicitors and regulates what solicitors handling investment business must do or should not do. There is grave concern that a dangerous duplication will arise: not only an unwelcome one for solicitor members in Scotland who may find themselves subject to two lots of administrative charges—which at first estimate will be hefty—but one which could cause confusion for consumers. That is distinctly undesirable.

There is a perception—and it may be worth investigating—that the Law Society of Scotland and its member solicitors would be content to remain with the existing adequate framework. In Scotland we have the unique virtue of an independent legal system and we have in place a satisfactory framework for the regulation of solicitors who handle investment business. Allowing a duplication to arise is an unnecessary complication and an unwelcome expense.

I hope that the minister will look carefully to see whether any steps can be taken to preserve the integrity of what already exists in Scotland and is in every respect admirable, to avoid bringing in any unnecessary confusion.

I also draw the minister's attention to some of the definitions in the proposed bill, specifically to the distinction between an investment and investment business. In the interests of clarity and legal certainty that should be defined in the

primary legislation; it should not be left to the statutory instrument. Due regard should be given to that important point.

I referred in my general remarks on the possible confusion to the cost of regulation. The Law Society of Scotland has ascertained from the FSA that the likely cost to Scottish solicitor practitioners will be a minimum of £1,000 for authorisation. That contrasts sharply with the existing charge of £135 imposed by the Law Society. I gather that the FSA has accepted that it will be neither as efficient nor as economical as the Law Society in regulating the investment business of Scottish solicitors. The minister may wish to give significant attention to that.

On a matter of corporate governance, the Hampel committee on corporate governance confirmed the recommendation of the Cadbury committee that in principle the roles of chairman and chief executive officer should, for obvious and understandable reasons, be kept separate in every public company. It is logical that that principle should be extended to comparable positions in the FSA. That is in no sense meant to denigrate or diminish the stature of Mr Howard Davies, who has a fine reputation; it is meant to point out that a distinction should be drawn between those two very separate roles. The Conservatives welcome Mr Mackay's proposal, but we hope that regard will be given to the very real concerns of the legal system of Scotland and its practitioners.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4828182+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2228E151P202C705309", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26656, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 244.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 244.0, "ID": 26656, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McCabe, Tom", "ID": 2228, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Tom McCabe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McCabe: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 250.0, "ContributionID": 705309, "EditedText": "I also refer to motion S1M-63, on the days when the office of the clerk will be open. The days are outlined in today's business bulletin.", "EditedTextHTML": "I also refer to motion S1M-63, on the days when the office of the clerk will be open. The days are outlined in today's business bulletin.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4828182+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C705307", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26656, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 244.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 244.0, "ID": 26656, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ms Patricia Ferguson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 245.0, "ContributionID": 705307, "EditedText": "We now move on to two items of Parliamentary Bureau business, both of which will be taken without debate. The first is motion S1M62, in the name of Tom McCabe. The second motion is S1M-63, also in the name of Tom McCabe, on the days on which the office of the clerk will be open.", "EditedTextHTML": "We now move on to two items of Parliamentary Bureau business, both of which will be taken without debate. The first is motion S1M62, in the name of Tom McCabe.

The second motion is S1M-63, also in the name of Tom McCabe, on the days on which the office of the clerk will be open.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4828182+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2228E151P202C705308", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26656, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 244.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 244.0, "ID": 26656, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McCabe, Tom", "ID": 2228, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Tom McCabe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Parliament (Mr Tom McCabe): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 248.0, "ContributionID": 705308, "EditedText": "This statutory instrument was made under section 93 of the Scotland Act 1998 and it was laid before this Parliament on 10 June. Its purpose is to allow ministers of the Crown to enter into agency agreements with the Scottish Ministers to allow for particular functions of one to be exercised by the other and vice versa. I move,That the Parliament considers the Scotland Act 1998 (Agency Arrangements) (Specification) Order 1999.", "EditedTextHTML": "This statutory instrument was made under section 93 of the Scotland Act 1998 and it was laid before this Parliament on 10 June. Its purpose is to allow ministers of the Crown to enter into agency agreements with the Scottish Ministers to allow for particular functions of one to be exercised by the other and vice versa.

I move,

That the Parliament considers the Scotland Act 1998 (Agency Arrangements) (Specification) Order 1999.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4828182+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C705310", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26656, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 244.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 244.0, "ID": 26656, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie (Lothians) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 252.0, "ContributionID": 705310, "EditedText": "Will Mr McCabe explain why in this motion we in this Parliament are apparently being allowed to skive off on 30 November, when everybody else in Scotland will be at work? Will he confirm that it does not signify support on the part of the Executive for the misguided campaign to make 30 November a national holiday? In Scotland we may need to rationalise our timetable of local and national holidays, but the last thing that people in Scotland need is a holiday in the middle of the week on a dreich day in November.", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr McCabe explain why in this motion we in this Parliament are apparently being allowed to skive off on 30 November, when everybody else in Scotland will be at work? Will he confirm that it does not signify support on the part of the Executive for the misguided campaign to make 30 November a national holiday? In Scotland we may need to rationalise our timetable of local and national holidays, but the last thing that people in Scotland need is a holiday in the middle of the week on a dreich day in November.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4828182+00:00" }, { "ID": "C705322", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26656, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 244.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 244.0, "ID": 26656, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 274.0, "ContributionID": 705322, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4828182+00:00" }, { "ID": "C705323", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26656, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 244.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 244.0, "ID": 26656, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 275.0, "ContributionID": 705323, "EditedText": "That the Parliament considers the Scotland Act 1998 (Agency Arrangements) (Specification) Order 1999 (No. 1512).", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament considers the Scotland Act 1998 (Agency Arrangements) (Specification) Order 1999 (No. 1512).

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4828182+00:00" }, { "ID": "C705317", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26656, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 244.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 244.0, "ID": 26656, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 266.0, "ContributionID": 705317, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4828182+00:00" }, { "ID": "C705318", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26656, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 244.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 244.0, "ID": 26656, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 267.0, "ContributionID": 705318, "EditedText": "That the Parliament endorses the principle of a UK Food Standards Agency as set out in the Food Standards Bill and agrees that the Bill should be considered by the UK Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament endorses the principle of a UK Food Standards Agency as set out in the Food Standards Bill and agrees that the Bill should be considered by the UK Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4828182+00:00" }, { "ID": "C705326", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26656, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 244.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 244.0, "ID": 26656, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 279.0, "ContributionID": 705326, "EditedText": "That the Parliament agrees that— (a) the Office of the Clerk should be open on each of the following days: 5 July to 9 July; 12 July to 16 July; 19 July to 23 July; 26 July to 30 July; 2 August to 6 August; 9 August to 13 August; 16 August to 20 August; 23 August to 27 August; 30 August to 3 September; 6 September to 10 September; 13 September to 12.30 pm on 17 September; 21 September to 24 September; 27 September to 1 October; 4 October to 8 October; 11 October to 15 October; 18 October to 22 October; 25 October to 29 October; 1 November to 5 November; 8 November to 12 November; 15 November to 19 November; 22 November to 26 November; 29 November; 1 December to 3 December; 6 December to 10 December; 13 December to 17 December; 20 December to 24 December; 29 December and 30 December 1999; 5 January to 7 January 2000; (b) the autumn recess should begin on 11 October and end on 24 October and the Christmas recess should begin on 20 December 1999 and should end on 9 January 2000 and (c) there will be no meeting of the Parliament or of any committee on 30 November 1999. Fiona Hyslop (Lothians) (SNP): I wish to raise a point of order about the motion in the name of Angus Mackay. There might have been some difficulty with the voting system. Would it be possible to put the question again?", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament agrees that— (a) the Office of the Clerk should be open on each of the following days: 5 July to 9 July; 12 July to 16 July; 19 July to 23 July; 26 July to 30 July; 2 August to 6 August; 9 August to 13 August; 16 August to 20 August; 23 August to 27 August; 30 August to 3 September; 6 September to 10 September; 13 September to 12.30 pm on 17 September; 21 September to 24 September; 27 September to 1 October; 4 October to 8 October; 11 October to 15 October; 18 October to 22 October; 25 October to 29 October; 1 November to 5 November; 8 November to 12 November; 15 November to 19 November; 22 November to 26 November; 29 November; 1 December to 3 December; 6 December to 10 December; 13 December to 17 December; 20 December to 24 December; 29 December and 30 December 1999; 5 January to 7 January 2000; (b) the autumn recess should begin on 11 October and end on 24 October and the Christmas recess should begin on 20 December 1999 and should end on 9 January 2000 and (c) there will be no meeting of the Parliament or of any committee on 30 November 1999. Fiona Hyslop (Lothians) (SNP): I wish to raise a point of order about the motion in the name of Angus Mackay. There might have been some difficulty with the voting system. Would it be possible to put the question again?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4828182+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1888E265P358C705328", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26656, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 244.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 244.0, "ID": 26656, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morgan, Alasdair", "ID": 1888, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Galloway and Upper Nithsdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morgan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alasdair Morgan (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 282.0, "ContributionID": 705328, "EditedText": "Further to Fiona Hyslop's point of order, I know of at least two members who abstained during that division.", "EditedTextHTML": "Further to Fiona Hyslop's point of order, I know of at least two members who abstained during that division.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4828182+00:00" }, { "ID": "C705332", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26656, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 244.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 244.0, "ID": 26656, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 290.0, "ContributionID": 705332, "EditedText": "FOR Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)Mackay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Steel, Sir David (Lothians) (LD)Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)(LD)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)ABSTENTIONS Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Mackay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Steel, Sir David (Lothians) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)
(LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)

ABSTENTIONS

Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4828182+00:00" }, { "ID": "C705334", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26656, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 244.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 244.0, "ID": 26656, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 293.0, "ContributionID": 705334, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4828182+00:00" }, { "ID": "C705335", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26656, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 244.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 244.0, "ID": 26656, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 294.0, "ContributionID": 705335, "EditedText": "That the Parliament agrees that the Financial Services and Markets Bill, the Electronic Communications Bill and the Limited Liability Partnerships Bill should be considered by the UK Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament agrees that the Financial Services and Markets Bill, the Electronic Communications Bill and the Limited Liability Partnerships Bill should be considered by the UK Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4828182+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C705336", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Peripheral Route, Aberdeen", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26657, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 295.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 295.0, "ID": 26657, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 296.0, "ContributionID": 705336, "EditedText": "We now come to members' business. Will members who are leaving do so quietly in the interests of the member who has lodged the motion? The debate on motion S1M-47, in the name of Brian Adam, on the peripheral route around Aberdeen will last for 30 minutes and members who wish to speak should press their buttons now. I call Brian Adam to open the debate.", "EditedTextHTML": "We now come to members' business. Will members who are leaving do so quietly in the interests of the member who has lodged the motion? The debate on motion S1M-47, in the name of Brian Adam, on the peripheral route around Aberdeen will last for 30 minutes and members who wish to speak should press their buttons now. I call Brian Adam to open the debate.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4828182+00:00" }, { "ID": "C705338", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Peripheral Route, Aberdeen", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26657, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 295.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 295.0, "ID": 26657, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 299.0, "ContributionID": 705338, "EditedText": "That the Parliament calls upon the Scottish Ministers to investigate all available means to expedite the building of a peripheral route around Aberdeen.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament calls upon the Scottish Ministers to investigate all available means to expedite the building of a peripheral route around Aberdeen.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4828182+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C705352", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Peripheral Route, Aberdeen", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26657, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 295.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 295.0, "ID": 26657, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 332.0, "ContributionID": 705352, "EditedText": "It is my intention to travel through the city and to see the different transport problems that are being experienced. As well as the local transport strategy, there is a new joint structure plan for the area covered by the Aberdeen and Aberdeenshire authorities. The combination of those two documents presents the councils in the area with the opportunity for a full discussion with the communities about the opportunities that are available. We need fully developed transport and land use strategies. All the speakers today have mentioned that. We need to ensure that we have an integrated approach, which will require a lot of effort from the councils. I want to flag up two key issues that I expect Aberdeen City Council and Aberdeenshire Council to address: the importance of the western peripheral route relative to sustainable transport measures in the city centre, such as walking, cycling, increased bus priority and improved bus frequencies; and the extent to which bus priority and other measures in the city centre are dependent on early progress of the bypass. I understand that the Oscar Faber study drew at best a modest link between the two. The land use implications of the bypass and the possible knock-on effect on transport demand also need to be addressed, especially the effect of any future greenfield developments on car-based demand, as speakers today have mentioned. Finally, we need to consider how best to integrate the proposed western peripheral route into a comprehensive transport strategy for the city and its hinterland.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is my intention to travel through the city and to see the different transport problems that are being experienced.

As well as the local transport strategy, there is a new joint structure plan for the area covered by the Aberdeen and Aberdeenshire authorities. The combination of those two documents presents the councils in the area with the opportunity for a full discussion with the communities about the opportunities that are available.

We need fully developed transport and land use strategies. All the speakers today have mentioned that. We need to ensure that we have an integrated approach, which will require a lot of effort from the councils.

I want to flag up two key issues that I expect Aberdeen City Council and Aberdeenshire Council to address: the importance of the western peripheral route relative to sustainable transport measures in the city centre, such as walking, cycling, increased bus priority and improved bus frequencies; and the extent to which bus priority and other measures in the city centre are dependent on early progress of the bypass. I understand that the Oscar Faber study drew at best a modest link between the two.

The land use implications of the bypass and the possible knock-on effect on transport demand also need to be addressed, especially the effect of any future greenfield developments on car-based demand, as speakers today have mentioned.

Finally, we need to consider how best to integrate the proposed western peripheral route into a comprehensive transport strategy for the city and its hinterland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:13.3570755+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C705354", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Peripheral Route, Aberdeen", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26657, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 295.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 295.0, "ID": 26657, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 336.0, "ContributionID": 705354, "EditedText": "The key point that I am trying to get across concerns the relationship between Aberdeen and Aberdeenshire, the city and its hinterland. We must have a transport strategy that meets the objectives of those different areas.", "EditedTextHTML": "The key point that I am trying to get across concerns the relationship between Aberdeen and Aberdeenshire, the city and its hinterland. We must have a transport strategy that meets the objectives of those different areas.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:13.3570755+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C705237", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Education Bill (Consultation)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26654, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 81.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 81.0, "ID": 26654, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 87.0, "ContributionID": 705237, "EditedText": "I have three questions for the minister. It was my understanding, and I think the understanding of most people in Scotland, that today he would outline details of an innovative consultation process. I am struggling to detect the innovation in the minister's statement. If it is, as the First Minister suggested last week, an example of early thinking on pre-legislative consultation, I suggest that the Government should go away and do some more thinking, this time of the creative variety. What is the minister proposing by way of consultation that is new? We all recognise that the committee structure will be a significant improvement in the pre-legislative process, but I am sure that he will agree that consultation at an even earlier stage is essential in education. What he suggests in his statement reflects what already happens—green or white papers are circulated to interested parties, and comments are invited and more often than not ignored. That is the type of consultation that the CSG condemned in its report, when it said: \"Consultation, in the form of inviting comments on specific legislative proposals, for example, would not meet our aspirations for a participative policy development process.\" That is exactly the type of consultation that the minister has just proposed. My second question refers to the content of the proposals; I understand that the minister cannot go into detail today. As publication is only a few days away, it is fair to ask for some early indications. As the minister and his deputy travel round Scotland to take part in their series of meetings, they will detect a fair degree of unease at the contents of the recent white paper, \"Targeting Excellence\". Will the minister give us a guarantee that his proposals will represent a significant departure from that white paper, which was rejected by people representing a range of interests in education? Thirdly, is the minister yet able to expand on the proposals in the partnership agreement to establish an education forum? Today would seem an ideal opportunity for him to have brought forward detailed proposals for the early establishment of such a forum, so that it could facilitate the type of consultation and participation that the CSG envisaged. The minister's statement was a missed opportunity, but I hope that his answers to my questions will go some way towards reassuring me on those concerns.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have three questions for the minister. It was my understanding, and I think the understanding of most people in Scotland, that today he would outline details of an innovative consultation process. I am struggling to detect the innovation in the minister's statement. If it is, as the First Minister suggested last week, an example of early

thinking on pre-legislative consultation, I suggest that the Government should go away and do some more thinking, this time of the creative variety.

What is the minister proposing by way of consultation that is new? We all recognise that the committee structure will be a significant improvement in the pre-legislative process, but I am sure that he will agree that consultation at an even earlier stage is essential in education. What he suggests in his statement reflects what already happens—green or white papers are circulated to interested parties, and comments are invited and more often than not ignored. That is the type of consultation that the CSG condemned in its report, when it said:

\"Consultation, in the form of inviting comments on specific legislative proposals, for example, would not meet our aspirations for a participative policy development process.\"

That is exactly the type of consultation that the minister has just proposed.

My second question refers to the content of the proposals; I understand that the minister cannot go into detail today. As publication is only a few days away, it is fair to ask for some early indications. As the minister and his deputy travel round Scotland to take part in their series of meetings, they will detect a fair degree of unease at the contents of the recent white paper, \"Targeting Excellence\". Will the minister give us a guarantee that his proposals will represent a significant departure from that white paper, which was rejected by people representing a range of interests in education?

Thirdly, is the minister yet able to expand on the proposals in the partnership agreement to establish an education forum? Today would seem an ideal opportunity for him to have brought forward detailed proposals for the early establishment of such a forum, so that it could facilitate the type of consultation and participation that the CSG envisaged.

The minister's statement was a missed opportunity, but I hope that his answers to my questions will go some way towards reassuring me on those concerns.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:00:39.6991441+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C705299", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 23 Jun 1999", "ID": 4170 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-23T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolved Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26655, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 127.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 127.0, "ID": 26655, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 224.0, "ContributionID": 705299, "EditedText": "The minister said that the purpose of the motion is to obtain the consent of this Parliament to allow Westminster to proceed on this issue. The Law Society of Scotland is concerned about some of the components of the Financial Services and Markets Bill; it is concerned that the bill does not create a single regulatory body for solicitors who provide financial services, but, in effect, produces double regulation as both the Law Society of Scotland and the Financial Services Authority will be involved. Will the Executive support the representations of the Law Society of Scotland and other organisations in Scotland on this important matter to the Treasury, which has signally failed to listen to those representations?", "EditedTextHTML": "The minister said that the purpose of the motion is to obtain the consent of this Parliament to allow Westminster to proceed on this issue. The Law Society of Scotland is concerned about some of the components of the Financial Services and Markets Bill; it is concerned that the bill does not create a single regulatory body for solicitors who provide financial services, but, in effect, produces double regulation as both the Law Society of Scotland and the Financial Services Authority will be involved. Will the Executive support the representations of the Law Society of Scotland and other organisations in Scotland on this important matter to the Treasury, which has signally failed to listen to those representations?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:21:23.9742649+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C705082", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 659.0, "ContributionID": 705082, "EditedText": "Mr Wallace's playing with words will not wash with the Scottish people. I have not been involved in politics for as long as many members of this Parliament, but even in my time I have witnessed more than a few U-turns by governing parties. They would be as nothing, however, compared to the betrayal that will occur in this chamber today if Liberal members do not vote for John Swinney's amendment. It has been said, before and during this debate, that the establishment of a committee is the quickest way to secure abolition. As Mr Swinney has already pointed out, that begs the question why that was not the manifesto commitment; it is utter nonsense. Putting aside the fact that this morning Mr McLeish would not commit the Executive to carrying out the committee's recommendations, if we had a committee and it decided to abolish fees, that would bring us back to the point we are at today: that is, the point of calling on the Executive to bring forward proposals. This afternoon, we have a choice. We can honour the 6 May verdict of the Scottish people, or we can choose to ignore it. I put it to the Liberal Democrat members of this Parliament that they will ignore the wishes of the Scottish people at their peril. I support the amendment.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Wallace's playing with words will not wash with the Scottish people. I have not been involved in politics for as long as many members of this Parliament, but even in my time I have witnessed more than a few U-turns by governing parties. They would be as nothing, however, compared to the betrayal that will occur in this chamber today if Liberal members do not vote for John Swinney's amendment.

It has been said, before and during this debate, that the establishment of a committee is the quickest way to secure abolition. As Mr Swinney has already pointed out, that begs the question why that was not the manifesto commitment; it is utter nonsense. Putting aside the fact that this morning Mr McLeish would not commit the Executive to carrying out the committee's recommendations, if we had a committee and it decided to abolish fees, that would bring us back to the point we are at today: that is, the point of calling on the Executive to bring forward proposals.

This afternoon, we have a choice. We can honour the 6 May verdict of the Scottish people, or we can choose to ignore it. I put it to the Liberal Democrat members of this Parliament that they will ignore the wishes of the Scottish people at their peril. I support the amendment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:00:25.9901853+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C704949", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26624, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 248.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26625, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 251.0, "QuestionHeading": "Roads (Aberdeen)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26639, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 363.0, "DisplayOrder": 363.0, "ID": 26639, "ParentID": 26625 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 370.0, "ContributionID": 704949, "EditedText": "We have no plans for the trunk road programme that would directly affect the western peripheral route around Aberdeen. The transport bill will provide the opportunity for local authorities, with the approval of the Scottish Executive, to bring forward road-user charging schemes where appropriate and where they would fit in with their local transport strategies.", "EditedTextHTML": "We have no plans for the trunk road programme that would directly affect the western peripheral route around Aberdeen. The transport bill will provide the opportunity for local authorities, with the approval of the Scottish Executive, to bring forward road-user charging schemes where appropriate and where they would fit in with their local transport strategies.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:08.9050713+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1773E197P503C705048", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hyslop, Fiona", "ID": 1773, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona Hyslop", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona Hyslop (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 587.0, "ContributionID": 705048, "EditedText": "Will Pauline McNeill give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Pauline McNeill give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:00:47.4219837+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2180E179P471C705023", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lochhead, Richard", "ID": 2180, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Lochhead", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Richard Lochhead (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 532.0, "ContributionID": 705023, "EditedText": "Did Dr Jackson benefit from a free higher education? If she did, why does she wish to deny that same privilege to future generations?", "EditedTextHTML": "Did Dr Jackson benefit from a free higher education? If she did, why does she wish to deny that same privilege to future generations?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:31.1569345+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C704791", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister (Donald Dewar): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 11.0, "ContributionID": 704791, "EditedText": "I welcome this debate. It is right that the Parliament should take stock and consider how we should proceed. However, I hope that it will take a decision today, as I believe that that is important. The Parliament inherits plans—it inherits a scheme that commend to this chamber—but it is entitled to consider the instructions that it should give to the corporate body. On that basis, I welcome what is happening today. There has been a great deal of difficulty and uncertainty about discussing this matter rationally, and there has been much excitement in the public prints. I want to underline the fact that it has been difficult for those working on the project to do so in a conducive atmosphere. One member of the design team said to me recently that the whole period had been demoralising. We should bear in mind the impact of today's decision on those who have worked hard over a lengthy period to get us to where we are. I have heard many fine words in this chamber about parliamentary business, about Parliament speaking and about Parliament being in charge of a particular project. I can think of no project that belongs more to the Parliament than the construction of the Parliament building. That is why the project will be the responsibility of the corporate body—an impartial body in which all parties are represented. I say to the nationalists that I am astonished, in view of all that they have said about the business of Parliament, to discover that they are whipping on today's motion. I make it clear that, on my side, there will be a free vote. I am confident that I will carry most of my colleagues, although I cannot say whether I will carry them all. As the Scottish nationalists are whipping, I suspect that the result will be very close. I hope that even during this debate they will recall and consider some of the things that they have said about how we should run the Parliament. I would never, in any public place, mention names but, from discussions at the presentations and from numerous private conversations, we know that the SNP is split on this matter. Almost all my colleagues would confirm that and I have no doubt that we would carry this vote comfortably on a free vote. Given the subject matter, it is absolutely disgraceful that the chamber will not get that chance. If I sound angry, it is because I am angry. We have not at any time tried to hide what is happening about the parliamentary building. We thought that we had to get the project under way and so we started in June 1997. The lead times on such major international projects are very long and it was essential that we started to prepare the ground. We had consulted: I will not try to pretend that we reached consensus on the site, for example, but we consulted the other parties and the public. As members know, there were exhibitions, which moved from Inverness to Selkirk to consult the public, and there were videos and models. There was also much discussion in the press and publicly. We had to take a decision on the site and I recognise that that may have been controversial. I ought to make it clear that in the 10 minutes that Sir David has imposed on me, I cannot go into points of information; I have a lot of things to say. I accept that there was a presumption in many people's minds that the Royal High School would be the site; in fact, we went there first, with our group of advisers and experts—people whose opinions had to be respected. There was a unanimity of view that the Royal High School was not—and could not satisfactorily be made into—a practical proposition, even if we built the debating chamber in the middle of Regent Road like some extended traffic island. That was not a possibility and we moved on from it. We looked closely at St Andrew's House, which was a runner. An ingenious, fine and imaginative adaptation was produced for the interior, behind the traditional Tait façade of 1939. We were tempted by that, but decided against it, largely because of difficulties over space and over expansion on the site and because the construction costs were going to be £15 million higher than for the scheme that we ultimately accepted. Mr Salmond may laugh at me—he can go and discuss the matter with the architects, the quantity surveyors and the costing people—but I repeat: we were advised that the cost would be £15 million more.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome this debate. It is right that the Parliament should take stock and consider how we should proceed. However, I hope that it will take a decision today, as I believe that that is important. The Parliament inherits plans—it inherits a scheme that commend to this chamber—but it is entitled to consider the instructions that it should give to the corporate body. On that basis, I welcome what is happening today.

There has been a great deal of difficulty and uncertainty about discussing this matter rationally, and there has been much excitement in the public prints. I want to underline the fact that it has been difficult for those working on the project to do so in a conducive atmosphere. One member of the design team said to me recently that the whole period had been demoralising. We should bear in mind the impact of today's decision on those who have worked hard over a lengthy period to get us to where we are.

I have heard many fine words in this chamber about parliamentary business, about Parliament speaking and about Parliament being in charge of a particular project. I can think of no project that belongs more to the Parliament than the construction of the Parliament building. That is why the project will be the responsibility of the corporate body—an impartial body in which all parties are represented.

I say to the nationalists that I am astonished, in view of all that they have said about the business of Parliament, to discover that they are whipping on today's motion. I make it clear that, on my side, there will be a free vote. I am confident that I will carry most of my colleagues, although I cannot say whether I will carry them all. As the Scottish nationalists are whipping, I suspect that the result will be very close. I hope that even during this debate they will recall and consider some of the things that they have said about how we should run the Parliament.

I would never, in any public place, mention names but, from discussions at the presentations and from numerous private conversations, we know that the SNP is split on this matter. Almost all my colleagues would confirm that and I have no doubt that we would carry this vote comfortably on a free vote. Given the subject matter, it is absolutely disgraceful that the chamber will not get that chance. If I sound angry, it is because I am angry.

We have not at any time tried to hide what is happening about the parliamentary building. We

thought that we had to get the project under way and so we started in June 1997. The lead times on such major international projects are very long and it was essential that we started to prepare the ground. We had consulted: I will not try to pretend that we reached consensus on the site, for example, but we consulted the other parties and the public. As members know, there were exhibitions, which moved from Inverness to Selkirk to consult the public, and there were videos and models. There was also much discussion in the press and publicly.

We had to take a decision on the site and I recognise that that may have been controversial. I ought to make it clear that in the 10 minutes that Sir David has imposed on me, I cannot go into points of information; I have a lot of things to say. I accept that there was a presumption in many people's minds that the Royal High School would be the site; in fact, we went there first, with our group of advisers and experts—people whose opinions had to be respected. There was a unanimity of view that the Royal High School was not—and could not satisfactorily be made into—a practical proposition, even if we built the debating chamber in the middle of Regent Road like some extended traffic island. That was not a possibility and we moved on from it.

We looked closely at St Andrew's House, which was a runner. An ingenious, fine and imaginative adaptation was produced for the interior, behind the traditional Tait façade of 1939. We were tempted by that, but decided against it, largely because of difficulties over space and over expansion on the site and because the construction costs were going to be £15 million higher than for the scheme that we ultimately accepted. Mr Salmond may laugh at me—he can go and discuss the matter with the architects, the quantity surveyors and the costing people—but I repeat: we were advised that the cost would be £15 million more.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4672278+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C704792", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Alex Salmond (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 13.0, "ContributionID": 704792, "EditedText": "Will Mr Dewar give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "

Will Mr Dewar give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4672278+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C704793", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 15.0, "ContributionID": 704793, "EditedText": "No, I will not take interventions.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I will not take interventions.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4672278+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C704795", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 19.0, "ContributionID": 704795, "EditedText": "All right, I will take just one. I have only 10 minutes.", "EditedTextHTML": "All right, I will take just one. I have only 10 minutes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4672278+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C704798", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 25.0, "ContributionID": 704798, "EditedText": "I allowed the First Minister some latitude on timing because of the importance of the topic and I must allow Mr Gorrie similar latitude when he speaks in a moment. Members should register whether they want to speak now so that we can assess the timings of speeches. The other point, which I should have made earlier, is that the corporate body has arranged for members of the design team to be seated at the back of the chamber. During the debate, members may go over to them to ask questions on the project.", "EditedTextHTML": "I allowed the First Minister some latitude on timing because of the importance of the topic and I must allow Mr Gorrie similar latitude when he speaks in a moment. Members should register whether they want to speak now so that we can assess the timings of speeches.

The other point, which I should have made earlier, is that the corporate body has arranged for members of the design team to be seated at the back of the chamber. During the debate, members may go over to them to ask questions on the project.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4672278+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C704802", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell (South of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 35.0, "ContributionID": 704802, "EditedText": "I commend the First Minister on the passion of his speech. I have seldom, if ever, seen him so passionate. It is admirable that he has such passion for architecture, if indeed that is the cause. However, I suspect that the cause is a passion for getting his own way. It is obviously necessary to pause at this stage in the project. I will reply immediately to the First Minister's question about why we need a whip on this matter. Had this debate taken place last week, there might not have been a need for it; but the majority of SNP members went to the presentation given by the design team and others and when they came back, they were utterly convinced that the terms of this amendment were right. There had to be a pause on this project. We are not talking about cancelling this project, but pausing on it. There are three very strong reasons for doing that. The first reason is that the project has financial flaws. A Scottish Parliament that works and works well is almost beyond price, but this project contains no guarantees about what that final price will be. With every passing day, we hear different figures. Mr Gorrie was right to say that the price of a pause started off at £1 million. At the meeting on Tuesday, we were told that it would be £2 million. The First Minister now says that it is £3 million. If the cost of drawing a breath is rising by £500,000 a day, who knows what will happen to this building. We must look at the figures and the cost again because, in terms of cost efficiency and cost control, this building is out of control. A second reason to pause is the concept of the building in almost every regard. I hope that Mr Harper will speak on the environmental issues, which are important and have been neglected. The question of traffic access has not been answered. We were confidently told at the briefing meetings that with 2 million visitors the increase in traffic would make no difference to that end of the High Street. That is nonsense and we must consider that matter again. The issue of the chamber is essential. I will briefly quote from the report by Mr Miralles. Mr Miralles talks about the chamber as being somewhere where MSPs could embrace each other. I see little sign of that happening here. He complains about the tendency for Parliaments to seat members of the assembly facing a wall. Presiding Officer, you are not a wall and we sit like this so that you may control the debate. Mr Miralles also calls members in the chamber performers. Clearly, he has seen Mr Raffan at work, but most people here are not performers. We should oppose this on the simple grounds of error in thinking. The building that we are talking about will not make us a Parliament. All the comments that we have heard so far suggest that we will miraculously become a Parliament in two years' time and that the problems we have with the new politics and the style of debate will change because we have a new building. That is not true. We must think about what we should be doing and how we, as men and women, should make ourselves a Parliament and not imagine that a building can do that for us. We must pause, consider the future and the costs, then come back in the autumn and decide where we go. We must not be rushed into this decision, because it could be the wrong decision.", "EditedTextHTML": "I commend the First Minister on the passion of his speech. I have seldom, if ever, seen him so passionate. It is admirable that he has such passion for architecture, if indeed that is the cause. However, I suspect that the cause is a passion for getting his own way.

It is obviously necessary to pause at this stage in the project. I will reply immediately to the First Minister's question about why we need a whip on this matter. Had this debate taken place last week, there might not have been a need for it; but the majority of SNP members went to the presentation given by the design team and others and when they came back, they were utterly convinced that the terms of this amendment were right. There had to be a pause on this project.

We are not talking about cancelling this project, but pausing on it. There are three very strong reasons for doing that. The first reason is that the project has financial flaws. A Scottish Parliament

that works and works well is almost beyond price, but this project contains no guarantees about what that final price will be. With every passing day, we hear different figures. Mr Gorrie was right to say that the price of a pause started off at £1 million. At the meeting on Tuesday, we were told that it would be £2 million. The First Minister now says that it is £3 million. If the cost of drawing a breath is rising by £500,000 a day, who knows what will happen to this building. We must look at the figures and the cost again because, in terms of cost efficiency and cost control, this building is out of control.

A second reason to pause is the concept of the building in almost every regard. I hope that Mr Harper will speak on the environmental issues, which are important and have been neglected. The question of traffic access has not been answered. We were confidently told at the briefing meetings that with 2 million visitors the increase in traffic would make no difference to that end of the High Street. That is nonsense and we must consider that matter again.

The issue of the chamber is essential. I will briefly quote from the report by Mr Miralles. Mr Miralles talks about the chamber as being somewhere where MSPs could embrace each other. I see little sign of that happening here. He complains about the tendency for Parliaments to seat members of the assembly facing a wall. Presiding Officer, you are not a wall and we sit like this so that you may control the debate. Mr Miralles also calls members in the chamber performers. Clearly, he has seen Mr Raffan at work, but most people here are not performers.

We should oppose this on the simple grounds of error in thinking. The building that we are talking about will not make us a Parliament. All the comments that we have heard so far suggest that we will miraculously become a Parliament in two years' time and that the problems we have with the new politics and the style of debate will change because we have a new building. That is not true. We must think about what we should be doing and how we, as men and women, should make ourselves a Parliament and not imagine that a building can do that for us. We must pause, consider the future and the costs, then come back in the autumn and decide where we go. We must not be rushed into this decision, because it could be the wrong decision.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4672278+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2228E151P202C704803", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McCabe, Tom", "ID": 2228, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Tom McCabe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Parliament (Mr Tom McCabe): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 37.0, "ContributionID": 704803, "EditedText": "Is it appropriate for me to move the motion now that we extend the debate to 1 o'clock?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is it appropriate for me to move the motion now that we extend the debate to 1 o'clock?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4672278+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C704804", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 39.0, "ContributionID": 704804, "EditedText": "Yes.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4672278+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1807E84P267C704800", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Maclean, Kate", "ID": 1807, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dundee West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kate Maclean", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Kate MacLean (Dundee West) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 30.0, "ContributionID": 704800, "EditedText": "On a point of order, Mr Presiding Officer. I accept what you say about the length of speeches, because it is important that as many people as possible get a chance to speak. However, yesterday, some members were using their interventions to make quite long comments and other members like me, who had been waiting to speak all afternoon, were not able to do so. Will you make a comment about that kind of electronic queue-jumping?", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order, Mr Presiding Officer. I accept what you say about the length of speeches, because it is important that as many people as possible get a chance to speak. However, yesterday, some members were using their interventions to make quite long comments and other members like me, who had been waiting to speak all afternoon, were not able to do so. Will you make a comment about that kind of electronic queue-jumping?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4672278+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C704810", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Annabel Goldie (West of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 52.0, "ContributionID": 704810, "EditedText": "I speak in support of Mr Gorrie's amendment. I do so because I feel that today MSPs are on a test of trust with the Scottish people—the people in these galleries and the people out beyond. Those people will look keenly at our judgment on where our new Parliament should be and on how much it will cost. The hallmark of what we are our discussing should be prudence and good husbandry, because the Scottish people are entitled to expect no less from this chamber. The question is not what we should have, but why we should have it. If we can answer that second question, MSPs can be at ease with themselves and with the Scottish people, not only today but for future generations. A Parliament such as the one we seek must have a location, with ancillary facilities, that is suitable for a modern forum of government. That is essential and indisputable. However, the question that cannot be answered—because there is neither sufficient information to do so nor acceptable information about other options—is simply this: does the current proposal for a Parliament building at Holyrood represent the best option? As Mr Gorrie has indicated, the Scottish people were certainly denied full information about the costs at the time of the devolution referendum. At that time, the figure in the public mind was between £40 million and £50 million. Today, the final estimate is running at approximately £109 million. With a capital cost running at that level, it is unacceptable that MSPs—without any investigation of other options—should endorse such expenditure. If we do, many doctors, nurses, schoolteachers and policemen throughout Scotland will question the wisdom of that decision.", "EditedTextHTML": "I speak in support of Mr Gorrie's amendment. I do so because I feel that today MSPs are on a test of trust with the Scottish people—the people in these galleries and the people out beyond. Those people will look keenly at our judgment on where our new Parliament should be and on how much it will cost. The hallmark of what we are our discussing should be prudence and good husbandry, because the Scottish people are entitled to expect no less from this chamber. The question is not what we should have, but why we should have it. If we can answer that second question, MSPs can be at ease with themselves and with the Scottish people, not only today but for future generations.

A Parliament such as the one we seek must have a location, with ancillary facilities, that is suitable for a modern forum of government. That is essential and indisputable. However, the question that cannot be answered—because there is neither sufficient information to do so nor acceptable information about other options—is simply this: does the current proposal for a Parliament building at Holyrood represent the best option?

As Mr Gorrie has indicated, the Scottish people were certainly denied full information about the costs at the time of the devolution referendum. At that time, the figure in the public mind was between £40 million and £50 million. Today, the final estimate is running at approximately £109 million. With a capital cost running at that level, it is unacceptable that MSPs—without any investigation of other options—should endorse such expenditure. If we do, many doctors, nurses, schoolteachers and policemen throughout Scotland will question the wisdom of that decision.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4672278+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2188E70P92C704818", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harper, Robin", "ID": 2188, "PartyName": "Scottish Green Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Green", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robin Harper", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robin Harper: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 69.0, "ContributionID": 704818, "EditedText": "I will not take any interventions. This building cannot be only good to excellent; it must be beyond excellent. It must be the best building that we can possibly produce. Time spent on improving energy efficiency will repay itself amply. It will almost certainly cost millions of pounds more in the long run to go ahead with the plan as it is. If we can spend £500 million on a block of offices for Westminster MPs and a couple of hundred million pounds on a supermarket, surely the Government will listen to a plea that more time be spent on considering the building, and even that more money be spent on it so that we can fulfil our international obligations, inspire the generation of architects to come, and give Scotland a building that it deserves.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will not take any interventions. This building cannot be only good to excellent; it must be beyond excellent. It must be the best building that we can possibly produce. Time spent on improving energy efficiency will repay itself amply. It will almost certainly cost millions of pounds more in the long run to go ahead with the plan as it is. If we can spend £500 million on a block of offices for Westminster MPs and a couple of hundred million pounds on a supermarket, surely the Government will listen to a plea that more time be spent on considering the building, and even that more money be spent on it so that we can fulfil our international obligations, inspire the generation of architects to come, and give Scotland a building that it deserves.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4672278+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704821", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "(Con) ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "(Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 79.0, "ContributionID": 704821, "EditedText": "I will be brief, as I know that many people wish to contribute to this debate. I support Mr Gorrie's amendment with the benefit of the experience of having builders in my home. The eventual home of the Scottish Parliament is a decision for which we as parliamentarians will be held to account, not just from an architectural standpoint, but by those who will visit and watch what we do. I am willing to bet that this is the only time that most of us will ever make a decision on where this Parliament will be situated. Certainly, I do not have experience in the matter, but I would welcome the time to look at the situation anew. I will leave aside the arguments about whether we were duped by the announcement of the initial cost price; whether it was £40 million or £50 million and whether it included things such as VAT, fees or demolition costs. I intend no slight to the then Secretary of State for Scotland who is now First Minister. He is not by nature a devious man. I felt for him when he said that he was drookit last night, but he could easily have taken a remedy—an umbrella. Yesterday, I noticed the obvious addition to the chamber. Gone were the two box files for Mr Henry McLeish, from which it was easier to read his notes, and instead we had a solid wooden lectern, in like wood to the desks we occupy. The amount of fiddling to the microphones showed that it was clearly an unforeseen addition. That is the shape of things to come. There will be constant additions, amendments, little extras and forward planning for advances in technology in whichever building the Parliament makes its home. That all costs money—money which, as constituents will tell us, would be better spent on things other than a monument to anyone's ego. My own particular bid would be for the upgrade of the A77 between Malletsheugh and Fenwick, a notorious black spot that is rightly known as the killer road. However, our present office accommodation is far from ideal. Is the road building outside our building a coincidence, or is it to hasten our departure? I have not had the delights of visiting the ministerial floor with its red carpet. This chamber, as has been said, would benefit from some alterations to improve access for the disabled and the cost of those alterations would be considerably less than the proposals for Holyrood. I am concerned about the financial aspects of this proposal. In this day and age who would not be?", "EditedTextHTML": "I will be brief, as I know that many people wish to contribute to this debate. I support Mr Gorrie's amendment with the benefit of the experience of having builders in my home.

The eventual home of the Scottish Parliament is a decision for which we as parliamentarians will be held to account, not just from an architectural standpoint, but by those who will visit and watch what we do. I am willing to bet that this is the only time that most of us will ever make a decision on where this Parliament will be situated. Certainly, I do not have experience in the matter, but I would welcome the time to look at the situation anew.

I will leave aside the arguments about whether we were duped by the announcement of the initial cost price; whether it was £40 million or £50 million and whether it included things such as VAT, fees or demolition costs. I intend no slight to the then Secretary of State for Scotland who is now First Minister. He is not by nature a devious man. I felt for him when he said that he was drookit last night, but he could easily have taken a remedy—an umbrella.

Yesterday, I noticed the obvious addition to the chamber. Gone were the two box files for Mr Henry McLeish, from which it was easier to read his notes, and instead we had a solid wooden lectern, in like wood to the desks we occupy. The amount of fiddling to the microphones showed that it was clearly an unforeseen addition. That is the shape of things to come. There will be constant additions, amendments, little extras and forward planning for advances in technology in whichever building the Parliament makes its home. That all costs money—money which, as constituents will tell us, would be better spent on things other than a monument to anyone's ego. My own particular bid would be for the upgrade of the A77 between Malletsheugh and Fenwick, a notorious black spot that is rightly known as the killer road.

However, our present office accommodation is far from ideal. Is the road building outside our building a coincidence, or is it to hasten our departure? I have not had the delights of visiting the ministerial floor with its red carpet. This chamber, as has been said, would benefit from some alterations to improve access for the disabled and the cost of those alterations would be considerably less than the proposals for Holyrood. I am concerned about the financial aspects of this proposal. In this day and age who would not be?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C704823", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 84.0, "ContributionID": 704823, "EditedText": "Margaret, you must finish.", "EditedTextHTML": "Margaret, you must finish.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2142E142P230C704830", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Watson, Mike", "ID": 2142, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Cathcart" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Watson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mike Watson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 102.0, "ContributionID": 704830, "EditedText": "If Richard Lochhead suggests that, I accept it; so much the better. I am sure that there is no uniformity of view within the parties that will vote for the amendment and against the substantive motion. There is a large element of political opportunism—it is an opportunity to have a go at the First Minister and the Executive, which is unfortunate. I believe that we will ultimately take the decision to settle at Holyrood, because it will be shown to be the best site in the circumstances, and there is no benefit in delaying that decision. I listened to Michael Matheson's speech; again, he spoke passionately about the needs of people with disabilities. That is a very important issue. It is one of the reasons why this building and the others that we are currently using are not suitable and why we should clear out of them at the first opportunity. I am therefore opposed to any delay that would cause us to remain here longer than necessary. I fear that adopting the amendment would put us into a spiral, so that it would be not just a two- month delay but considerably longer than that. Although everyone has done well in preparing this building for us, it is not suitable in the long term; neither is the office accommodation. We need to move ahead today on the basis of the motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "If Richard Lochhead suggests that, I accept it; so much the better. I am sure that there is no uniformity of view within the parties that will vote for the amendment and against the substantive motion. There is a large element of political opportunism—it is an opportunity to have a go at the First Minister and the Executive, which is unfortunate.

I believe that we will ultimately take the decision to settle at Holyrood, because it will be shown to be the best site in the circumstances, and there is no benefit in delaying that decision. I listened to Michael Matheson's speech; again, he spoke passionately about the needs of people with disabilities. That is a very important issue. It is one of the reasons why this building and the others that we are currently using are not suitable and why we should clear out of them at the first opportunity. I am therefore opposed to any delay that would cause us to remain here longer than necessary.

I fear that adopting the amendment would put us into a spiral, so that it would be not just a two- month delay but considerably longer than that. Although everyone has done well in preparing this building for us, it is not suitable in the long term; neither is the office accommodation. We need to move ahead today on the basis of the motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2118E157P454C704833", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Quinan, Mr Lloyd", "ID": 2118, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lloyd Quinan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Quinan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 109.0, "ContributionID": 704833, "EditedText": "No, I will not give way.That historic building should last and be a focus for the country, as the Sydney Opera House is a focus for the people of Australia and as the new Reichstag is a focus for the people of a united Germany. That is what we are aiming for. It concerns me that we are taking this decision in impatience. If we get it wrong, the mistake will be there in bricks, mortar, sheet steel and plastic for us and for those who come after us to walk by or walk into each year for the next four years. It will be an indictment of our impatience if we proceed with the proposal without proper consideration. I urge all members who are not supporting the amendment to take a walk down St Mary's Street, or through the Cowgate and down Holyrood Road, to the bottom of the Royal Mile and back again, and then tell me whether the development will have a major impact on traffic.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I will not give way.

That historic building should last and be a focus for the country, as the Sydney Opera House is a focus for the people of Australia and as the new Reichstag is a focus for the people of a united Germany. That is what we are aiming for.

It concerns me that we are taking this decision in impatience. If we get it wrong, the mistake will be there in bricks, mortar, sheet steel and plastic for us and for those who come after us to walk by or walk into each year for the next four years. It will be an indictment of our impatience if we proceed with the proposal without proper consideration. I urge all members who are not supporting the amendment to take a walk down St Mary's Street, or through the Cowgate and down Holyrood Road, to the bottom of the Royal Mile and back again, and then tell me whether the development will have a major impact on traffic.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1814E135P516C704838", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Fabiani, Linda", "ID": 1814, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Linda Fabiani", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Linda Fabiani (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 122.0, "ContributionID": 704838, "EditedText": "It is sad that, yet again, we are debating what should be a cross-party matter but has been reduced to either backing or opposing the Executive. I instinctively agree with the case that Scotland's new Parliament should be in a new building that reflects modern Scotland. I like Senor Miralles's design—in fact, I adore Senor Miralles's design. Laughter. We will not pursue that. I have no problem about drawing on the lessons of other countries, but I worry about the Executive's haste to proceed and its unwillingness properly to share decision-making on this matter. I have spent a large part of my professional career assisting communities to initiate and control construction projects. Voluntary groups in communities expect—and rightly demand—full information on which to base their decisions. The members of this Parliament have not been afforded the courtesy of that opportunity. A press report this morning quoted an unnamed member of the Executive as saying that if the Parliament agreed to delay construction, it would cost £1 million. I have learned this morning that the costs under the penalty clauses might amount to £2 million. The more important question is what it will cost us to allow this project to go ahead ill- prepared. We are being asked to approve a project that will probably cost in excess of £100 million with less information than would be available to a local authority building a community centre.The information that we have been given is long on timetable but short on cost analysis. That suggests that more weight is being given to bringing the project in on time—and to prestige— than to getting it right in facility at appropriate cost. The papers circulated to us raised many questions, and I will submit them to the corporate body, whatever the outcome of this debate. I will support the amendment. If it is passed, and Holyrood emerges from the process as the preferred option, it will be a better project, a better building and—more important—the decision will have been made by this Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is sad that, yet again, we are debating what should be a cross-party matter but has been reduced to either backing or opposing the Executive.

I instinctively agree with the case that Scotland's new Parliament should be in a new building that reflects modern Scotland. I like Senor Miralles's design—in fact, I adore Senor Miralles's design. [Laughter.] We will not pursue that.

I have no problem about drawing on the lessons of other countries, but I worry about the Executive's haste to proceed and its unwillingness properly to share decision-making on this matter. I have spent a large part of my professional career assisting communities to initiate and control construction projects. Voluntary groups in communities expect—and rightly demand—full information on which to base their decisions. The members of this Parliament have not been afforded the courtesy of that opportunity.

A press report this morning quoted an unnamed member of the Executive as saying that if the Parliament agreed to delay construction, it would cost £1 million. I have learned this morning that the costs under the penalty clauses might amount to £2 million. The more important question is what it will cost us to allow this project to go ahead ill- prepared. We are being asked to approve a project that will probably cost in excess of £100 million with less information than would be available to a local authority building a community

centre.

The information that we have been given is long on timetable but short on cost analysis. That suggests that more weight is being given to bringing the project in on time—and to prestige— than to getting it right in facility at appropriate cost. The papers circulated to us raised many questions, and I will submit them to the corporate body, whatever the outcome of this debate.

I will support the amendment. If it is passed, and Holyrood emerges from the process as the preferred option, it will be a better project, a better building and—more important—the decision will have been made by this Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1931E120P189C704839", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Muldoon, Bristow", "ID": 1931, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Livingston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bristow Muldoon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bristow Muldoon (Livingston) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 125.0, "ContributionID": 704839, "EditedText": "I want to comment on Fergus Ewing's speech, which was one of the most interesting made today. Fergus advised us that the new Parliament would hasten Scottish independence, yet today he is advocating delay. What are the Scottish National party these days? Are they fainthearts rather than bravehearts? The Conservatives' approach does not surprise me. What does surprise me about today's debate is the lack of ambition that we are hearing from the nationalists. The SNP wants Scotland to take a leap into the economic dark, but is not prepared to put its money where its mouth is and help establish a Parliament that is fit for the next millennium and the people of Scotland. Instead, it is prepared to support a proposal from Donald Gorrie for the sake of a couple of cheap headlines. The Parliament has a clear choice between the vision of an exciting new building for Scotland that can take us forward into the next century, and the penny-pinching parochialism of Donald Gorrie. As Mike Watson commented earlier, Donald Gorrie's position is anti-Holyrood. To delay today is to delay forever, and the Parliament will never move forward. Mike Russell advises us that the SNP is employing a party whip today because it is united in its position. If it is united, why is it bothering with a whip? MSPs from that party would vote automatically for its position. The reality, as Richard Lochhead and, I think, Linda Fabiani have told us, is that many of its members support the proposal and that the whip is needed to whip them into line. The vision that has been put before us by Enric Miralles, which Donald Dewar's motion asks us to support, is a vision of a Parliament for Scotland—a Parliament that will be accessible to all of our people, to all of our communities and will allow them to engage with us. It will act as a focus for schools throughout Scotland and for visitors to Edinburgh who want to see the new Scottish Parliament and the vision of a new Scottish democracy for the next millennium. As Mike Watson said, if we delay today, we will delay forever, and it will be the first of many delays. I appeal to the SNP members who support the Holyrood project to unite with us behind an inspired design that will give Scotland a Parliament building fit for the new democracy that we are taking forward to the next millennium.", "EditedTextHTML": "I want to comment on Fergus Ewing's speech, which was one of the most interesting made today. Fergus advised us that the new Parliament would hasten Scottish independence, yet today he is advocating delay. What are the Scottish National party these days? Are they fainthearts rather than bravehearts?

The Conservatives' approach does not surprise me. What does surprise me about today's debate is the lack of ambition that we are hearing from the nationalists. The SNP wants Scotland to take a leap into the economic dark, but is not prepared to put its money where its mouth is and help establish a Parliament that is fit for the next millennium and the people of Scotland. Instead, it is prepared to support a proposal from Donald Gorrie for the sake of a couple of cheap headlines.

The Parliament has a clear choice between the vision of an exciting new building for Scotland that can take us forward into the next century, and the penny-pinching parochialism of Donald Gorrie. As Mike Watson commented earlier, Donald Gorrie's position is anti-Holyrood. To delay today is to delay forever, and the Parliament will never move forward.

Mike Russell advises us that the SNP is employing a party whip today because it is united in its position. If it is united, why is it bothering with a whip? MSPs from that party would vote automatically for its position. The reality, as Richard Lochhead and, I think, Linda Fabiani have told us, is that many of its members support the proposal and that the whip is needed to whip them into line.

The vision that has been put before us by Enric Miralles, which Donald Dewar's motion asks us to support, is a vision of a Parliament for Scotland—a Parliament that will be accessible to all of our people, to all of our communities and will allow them to engage with us. It will act as a focus for schools throughout Scotland and for visitors to Edinburgh who want to see the new Scottish Parliament and the vision of a new Scottish democracy for the next millennium.

As Mike Watson said, if we delay today, we will delay forever, and it will be the first of many delays. I appeal to the SNP members who support the Holyrood project to unite with us behind an inspired design that will give Scotland a Parliament building fit for the new democracy that we are taking forward to the next millennium.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1996E124P211C704845", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAveety, Mr Frank", "ID": 1996, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Shettleston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Local Government", "SpeakerName": "Frank McAveety", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Frank McAveety (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 141.0, "ContributionID": 704845, "EditedText": "I hope to create a debate that will rise to the eloquence and value of the words of Mike Russell and the young pretender, Duncan Hamilton. We need to create a Parliament that is fit for the language that they will deploy in future years— hopefully over at least one session This debate is about the kind of vision that we have for Scotland. It is about the kind of symbols we want our buildings to be. I have left a city where any debate on the creation of the unique building, the City Chambers, would have been as narrow and short-sighted as this debate has been in parts. The one unifying symbol of Glasgow is the City Chambers—whether one is inside it, or like my old adversary on many occasions, Tommy Sheridan, outside it. It strikes me that that debate about symbols is worth promoting. I cannot imagine our European counterparts having such a narrow debate. I cannot imagine that the people of Barcelona, who have aspirations for their city and a concept of nationhood and identity, would have such a narrow debate. I cannot imagine the Parisians having this kind of narrow debate. Unfortunately, the Scottish cringe has emerged once more in this chamber. People have claimed that they are interested only in small matters; honourable as such matters are, they could just as well be determined by the corporate body. The points of detail that members of other parties have raised are legitimate concerns, but members could easily have raised them through the proper process, rather than questioning the overall project. We developed the new Hampden because we wanted the national stadium to stand for the whole of Scotland, rather than for two football clubs in Glasgow, that perhaps represented other— religious and historical—traditions. This chamber represents some of those traditions. Let us try to create something new. Personally, I want to have the opportunity to recreate in the Sunday newspapers a column called Frankie goes to Holyrood—if we do not go there I will not be able to fill any column space. As that column seemed to be inspired by my record collection, I will conclude with a point from the Waterboys, who had a great song that, unfortunately, seemed to be evident in today's debate. I say this to Mike Russell, as he believes in words of eloquence, and I hope that Duncan Hamilton aspires to reach the standard of speech that I have made today. You saw the crescent, Mike. We saw the whole of the moon.", "EditedTextHTML": "I hope to create a debate that will rise to the eloquence and value of the words of Mike Russell and the young pretender, Duncan Hamilton. We need to create a Parliament that is fit for the language that they will deploy in future years— hopefully over at least one session

This debate is about the kind of vision that we have for Scotland. It is about the kind of symbols we want our buildings to be. I have left a city where any debate on the creation of the unique building, the City Chambers, would have been as narrow and short-sighted as this debate has been in parts. The one unifying symbol of Glasgow is the City Chambers—whether one is inside it, or like my old adversary on many occasions, Tommy Sheridan, outside it. It strikes me that that debate about symbols is worth promoting.

I cannot imagine our European counterparts having such a narrow debate. I cannot imagine that the people of Barcelona, who have aspirations for their city and a concept of nationhood and identity, would have such a narrow debate. I cannot imagine the Parisians having this kind of narrow debate.

Unfortunately, the Scottish cringe has emerged once more in this chamber. People have claimed that they are interested only in small matters; honourable as such matters are, they could just as well be determined by the corporate body. The points of detail that members of other parties have raised are legitimate concerns, but members could easily have raised them through the proper process, rather than questioning the overall project.

We developed the new Hampden because we wanted the national stadium to stand for the whole of Scotland, rather than for two football clubs in Glasgow, that perhaps represented other— religious and historical—traditions. This chamber represents some of those traditions. Let us try to create something new.

Personally, I want to have the opportunity to recreate in the Sunday newspapers a column called Frankie goes to Holyrood—if we do not go there I will not be able to fill any column space.

As that column seemed to be inspired by my record collection, I will conclude with a point from the Waterboys, who had a great song that, unfortunately, seemed to be evident in today's debate. I say this to Mike Russell, as he believes in words of eloquence, and I hope that Duncan Hamilton aspires to reach the standard of speech that I have made today. You saw the crescent, Mike. We saw the whole of the moon.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C704847", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Brian Monteith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 146.0, "ContributionID": 704847, "EditedText": "Although I am a supporter of the second best site that is Holyrood, I am keen to give my support to Donald Gorrie's motion. I say that the site is second best because I feel that, although the First Minister commented on Donaldson's school, that site has been too easily dismissed. It is important that, when we consider Holyrood, we take account of the impact on traffic. I was born and bred in Meadowbank and played most of my youth football—badly—in Holyrood park, so I am well acquainted with the environs. I also spent some time as a marketing consultant to the Palace of Holyroodhouse, which might explain why, within the choices that are available, I favour the Parliament being located in Holyrood. I also favour some prudence in how the project is carried out. I am not convinced of the merits of the design. When I first saw that it featured upturned boats, I felt that it had been designed, mistakenly, for a location in Leith. However, I might be converted. It is important that we bring transparency to the process and give the Parliament some say in how things progress, particularly as regards the important matter of the chamber. I mentioned Donaldson's school. Were we to pass the amendment, I hope that it might be possible to investigate that site which, I should explain for the benefit of members who are not familiar with it, is a fine example of Jacobean-style architecture in Edinburgh's west end. It has many advantages, not least of which is its West Lothian sandstone, which might be important to members from that area. It is close to Haymarket station, which makes it the only proposed site that is near a main railway station. It is on the road to Glasgow—some members would say that that is the best road in Edinburgh—which means that traffic could be more easily handled. The school is surrounded by fine grasslands that could be developed with buildings beneath the turf. The school is a majestic building and features a quadrangle in which the chamber could be located in a way that would bring the old together with the new, similar to what Germany has recently done with the Reichstag—although that was rather more expensive. Donaldson's has a connection with the Reichstag, of course: the Kaiser's zeppelin blew out the windows of the school in 1916. To that extent, there is a European link. Not only the architecture, but the surroundings, are important. In the environs are curry houses, public houses and offies—where we could buy champagne to celebrate by-election victories. There is even a kilt hire shop just down the road for special occasions. Donaldson's school has everything going for it and I recommend that we support Donald Gorrie's amendment so that we can reassess the location of the new Parliament building.", "EditedTextHTML": "Although I am a supporter of the second best site that is Holyrood, I am keen to give my support to Donald Gorrie's motion. I say that the site is second best because I feel that, although the First Minister commented on Donaldson's school, that site has been too easily dismissed.

It is important that, when we consider Holyrood, we take account of the impact on traffic. I was born and bred in Meadowbank and played most of my youth football—badly—in Holyrood park, so I am well acquainted with the environs. I also spent some time as a marketing consultant to the Palace of Holyroodhouse, which might explain why, within the choices that are available, I favour the Parliament being located in Holyrood.

I also favour some prudence in how the project is carried out. I am not convinced of the merits of the design. When I first saw that it featured upturned boats, I felt that it had been designed, mistakenly, for a location in Leith. However, I might be converted. It is important that we bring transparency to the process and give the Parliament some say in how things progress, particularly as regards the important matter of the chamber.

I mentioned Donaldson's school. Were we to pass the amendment, I hope that it might be possible to investigate that site which, I should explain for the benefit of members who are not familiar with it, is a fine example of Jacobean-style architecture in Edinburgh's west end. It has many advantages, not least of which is its West Lothian sandstone, which might be important to members from that area. It is close to Haymarket station, which makes it the only proposed site that is near

a main railway station. It is on the road to Glasgow—some members would say that that is the best road in Edinburgh—which means that traffic could be more easily handled. The school is surrounded by fine grasslands that could be developed with buildings beneath the turf.

The school is a majestic building and features a quadrangle in which the chamber could be located in a way that would bring the old together with the new, similar to what Germany has recently done with the Reichstag—although that was rather more expensive. Donaldson's has a connection with the Reichstag, of course: the Kaiser's zeppelin blew out the windows of the school in 1916. To that extent, there is a European link.

Not only the architecture, but the surroundings, are important. In the environs are curry houses, public houses and offies—where we could buy champagne to celebrate by-election victories. There is even a kilt hire shop just down the road for special occasions.

Donaldson's school has everything going for it and I recommend that we support Donald Gorrie's amendment so that we can reassess the location of the new Parliament building.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1762E216P508C704850", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Elder, Dorothy-Grace", "ID": 1762, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 153.0, "ContributionID": 704850, "EditedText": "A tiny one.", "EditedTextHTML": "A tiny one.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1762E216P508C704852", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Elder, Dorothy-Grace", "ID": 1762, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 157.0, "ContributionID": 704852, "EditedText": "I have not finished my speech. I was just pointing out the sums that are being lavished on London. We have heard from Labour members about the seven different buildings and about the malignancy of the Edinburgh rain, which raineth upon the First Minister—and all the rest of us. Who forced us into having seven different buildings? The hurried original decision has cost us £7.5 million for just two years in the building, although the Government was offered the Strathclyde Regional Council building for two years for only £3 million. I see that Frank McAveety is leaving—do not go away, Frankie, you know about that one. Labour members are not quite the innocent people they seem. Hurry and rapidity has been the problem all along. The Holyrood building—said to be the most important in Scotland's recent history—was ordered with the rapidity with which one might order a wee greenhouse from B&Q. I know people who have put far more thought into the preparation of a site for a wee greenhouse. The Holyrood site is wrong, it is far too small, but let us all give it a chance by supporting the amendment and by considering what, on balance, comes out best. The design of the roofs is wrong. They are far too flat and they are not tilted enough to bear the weight of a really heavy snow in the Scottish winter. The debating chamber is a disaster. It is suitable only for a ferocious debate on flower arranging. Sometimes, in a democracy, we need confrontation. We are all here to fight our own corner. My corner is Glasgow and I appeal to other Glasgow MSPs to fight this plan, too.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have not finished my speech. I was just pointing out the sums that are being lavished on London.

We have heard from Labour members about the seven different buildings and about the malignancy of the Edinburgh rain, which raineth upon the First Minister—and all the rest of us. Who forced us into having seven different buildings? The hurried original decision has cost us £7.5 million for just two years in the building, although the Government was offered the Strathclyde Regional Council building for two years for only £3 million. I see that Frank McAveety is leaving—do not go away, Frankie, you know about that one. Labour members are not quite the innocent people they seem.

Hurry and rapidity has been the problem all along. The Holyrood building—said to be the most important in Scotland's recent history—was ordered with the rapidity with which one might order a wee greenhouse from B&Q. I know people who have put far more thought into the preparation of a site for a wee greenhouse. The Holyrood site is wrong, it is far too small, but let us all give it a chance by supporting the amendment and by considering what, on balance, comes out best. The design of the roofs is wrong. They are far too flat and they are not tilted enough to bear the weight of a really heavy snow in the Scottish winter. The debating chamber is a disaster. It is suitable only for a ferocious debate on flower arranging.

Sometimes, in a democracy, we need confrontation. We are all here to fight our own corner. My corner is Glasgow and I appeal to other Glasgow MSPs to fight this plan, too.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C704853", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 159.0, "ContributionID": 704853, "EditedText": "Please wind up your speech.", "EditedTextHTML": "Please wind up your speech.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C704857", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 167.0, "ContributionID": 704857, "EditedText": "Order, order. You will not challenge the chair.", "EditedTextHTML": "Order, order. You will not challenge the chair.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C704862", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Keith Raffan (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 178.0, "ContributionID": 704862, "EditedText": "Thank you, Mr Deputy Presiding Officer. I rise to support Donald Gorrie's reasonable and sensible amendment. There have been some passionate performances today, not least from my friend Mr Russell, but I do not want to compete with him on this occasion. We must consider the issue of the Parliament building rationally. The First Minister's speech raised more questions than it answered. He said that a decision on the site had to be taken. Why? He decided that a decision had to be taken. He is the one who initiated the project and it was he who has rushed it. He was right when he said that the Parliament should make a decision on the building. We should reach that decision in a considered and methodical way. We must wait to see how the Parliament evolves over at least four or five years. That makes sense. We have only just set up and named the members of committees; those are the initial 16 committees, but there may be more sub-committees. That kind of thing dictates the type of facilities that we will need. We should see how the Parliament evolves over at least four or five years before we make a final decision on a permanent building. The Australians were in provisional accommodation for 60 years. I do not recommend that we take that long, but that we can reasonably make do with this excellent chamber for eight years. I share Mr Gorrie's concern about the location of the Parliament. I would not describe it as being \"in a hole\", but it is certainly down in a hollow, or dip. One of the remarkable things about the cluster of buildings that we occupy at the moment is that we are right in the life of the city. Mr Salmond and others might agree that it is much better than Westminster in that respect. That is another argument for Calton hill, which is also more accessible than the other end of the Royal Mile.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you, Mr Deputy Presiding Officer. I rise to support Donald Gorrie's reasonable and sensible amendment. There have been some passionate performances today, not least from my friend Mr Russell, but I do not want to compete with him on this occasion.

We must consider the issue of the Parliament building rationally. The First Minister's speech raised more questions than it answered. He said that a decision on the site had to be taken. Why? He decided that a decision had to be taken. He is the one who initiated the project and it was he who has rushed it. He was right when he said that the Parliament should make a decision on the building. We should reach that decision in a considered and methodical way.

We must wait to see how the Parliament evolves over at least four or five years. That makes sense. We have only just set up and named the members of committees; those are the initial 16 committees, but there may be more sub-committees. That kind of thing dictates the type of facilities that we will need. We should see how the Parliament evolves over at least four or five years before we make a final decision on a permanent building. The Australians were in provisional accommodation for 60 years. I do not recommend that we take that long, but that we can reasonably make do with this excellent chamber for eight years.

I share Mr Gorrie's concern about the location of the Parliament. I would not describe it as being \"in a hole\", but it is certainly down in a hollow, or dip. One of the remarkable things about the cluster of buildings that we occupy at the moment is that we are right in the life of the city. Mr Salmond and others might agree that it is much better than Westminster in that respect. That is another argument for Calton hill, which is also more accessible than the other end of the Royal Mile.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C704864", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 182.0, "ContributionID": 704864, "EditedText": "No, I do not have time.The First Minister made a crucial point about the design when he said that the floor space had increased by 44 per cent since Mr Miralles's original design. Any architect who has followed the development of the design will say that Miralles's original design has changed radically. That, too, raises concerns. On the quality of the building, Mr Quinan mentioned its lifespan. I understood that the project team said that the lifespan was 100 years. That does not seem very long to me when one considers that some of the buildings that will surround it have lasted for more than 500 years. I am concerned about the quality of the materials that will be used, and about the apparent lack of natural stone. The cost is escalating. Parliamentarians are notorious for the cost of their buildings. The new members' building at Westminster is a case in point—the bronze cladding alone will cost £50 million—and the Sam Rayburn building on Capitol hill in Washington DC came in at something like 500 per cent over budget. We are not exactly good at keeping buildings within budget. We are sending out the wrong signal today. Our priority should be not ourselves, but the people of Scotland. A lot of passionate speeches were made from the Labour benches during the debate on the legislative programme yesterday, and I agreed with them. Surely we should be housing Scotland's pupils first—before we house Scotland's politicians. Our priority should be to catch up with the enormous backlog of school building maintenance. Politicians can make do with a flat desk and a phone. It is not the building that counts, but the people in it.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I do not have time.

The First Minister made a crucial point about the design when he said that the floor space had increased by 44 per cent since Mr Miralles's original design. Any architect who has followed the development of the design will say that Miralles's original design has changed radically. That, too, raises concerns.

On the quality of the building, Mr Quinan mentioned its lifespan. I understood that the project team said that the lifespan was 100 years. That does not seem very long to me when one considers that some of the buildings that will surround it have lasted for more than 500 years.

I am concerned about the quality of the materials that will be used, and about the apparent lack of natural stone. The cost is escalating. Parliamentarians are notorious for the cost of their buildings. The new members' building at Westminster is a case in point—the bronze cladding alone will cost £50 million—and the Sam Rayburn building on Capitol hill in Washington DC came in at something like 500 per cent over budget. We are not exactly good at keeping buildings within budget.

We are sending out the wrong signal today. Our priority should be not ourselves, but the people of Scotland. A lot of passionate speeches were made from the Labour benches during the debate on the legislative programme yesterday, and I agreed with them. Surely we should be housing Scotland's pupils first—before we house Scotland's politicians. Our priority should be to catch up with the enormous backlog of school building maintenance. Politicians can make do with a flat desk and a phone. It is not the building that counts, but the people in it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C704865", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 184.0, "ContributionID": 704865, "EditedText": "I now call Margo MacDonald to begin the winding-up speeches. I apologise to the eight members who were still hoping to speak, but I think that we have done well. You have seven minutes, Ms MacDonald.", "EditedTextHTML": "I now call Margo MacDonald to begin the winding-up speeches. I apologise to the eight members who were still hoping to speak, but I think that we have done well. You have seven minutes, Ms MacDonald.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1828E200P487C704868", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacDonald, Margo", "ID": 1828, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margo MacDonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms MacDonald: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 191.0, "ContributionID": 704868, "EditedText": "I will attempt to summarise the debate and I will try hard to disregard John McAllion's friendly advice that we should all just keep quiet in our opposition. I do not mean to keep quiet, not because—I say this to Mr Watson—I am being opportunist, but because I was elected by people in this area. Just like Cathie Craigie, the member for Cumbernauld and Kilsyth, I feel a sense of civic responsibility and public responsibility. I have direct contact with the people who meet me going down the High Street—I do not mind meeting Edinburgh folk going down the High Street—and who say, \"I hope you're going to do something about this. What are we spending all this money for?\" Then they detail all the things that they would choose to spend money on before spending it on a Parliament. So far, whether we like it or not, we have not necessarily made the best case for making the Parliament the priority for public spending. I make no apology for asking for a delay, as I think that we would use that delay constructively. We need to argue that we should have the very best building that Scotland can afford, as we have yet to convince all the people who elected us—and that goes for all of us. I see Cathie Craigie shaking her head. She said that people in her constituency voted for the Parliament. The question that I wanted to ask her was whether her constituents voted for a £90 million Parliament or for a £50 million Parliament. The people who voted for me did not vote for a Parliament where the costs appear to be escalating outwith control.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will attempt to summarise the debate and I will try hard to disregard John McAllion's friendly advice that we should all just keep quiet in our opposition. I do not mean to keep quiet, not because—I say this to Mr Watson—I am being opportunist, but because I was elected by people in this area.

Just like Cathie Craigie, the member for Cumbernauld and Kilsyth, I feel a sense of civic responsibility and public responsibility. I have direct contact with the people who meet me going down the High Street—I do not mind meeting Edinburgh folk going down the High Street—and who say, \"I hope you're going to do something about this. What are we spending all this money for?\" Then they detail all the things that they would choose to spend money on before spending it on a Parliament.

So far, whether we like it or not, we have not necessarily made the best case for making the Parliament the priority for public spending. I make no apology for asking for a delay, as I think that we would use that delay constructively. We need

to argue that we should have the very best building that Scotland can afford, as we have yet to convince all the people who elected us—and that goes for all of us.

I see Cathie Craigie shaking her head. She said that people in her constituency voted for the Parliament. The question that I wanted to ask her was whether her constituents voted for a £90 million Parliament or for a £50 million Parliament. The people who voted for me did not vote for a Parliament where the costs appear to be escalating outwith control.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1751E163P286C704869", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Craigie, Cathie", "ID": 1751, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Cumbernauld and Kilsyth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Cathie Craigie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Cathie Craigie rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 193.0, "ContributionID": 704869, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1828E200P487C704872", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacDonald, Margo", "ID": 1828, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margo MacDonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms MacDonald: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 199.0, "ContributionID": 704872, "EditedText": "I think that that is true, but it is also true that neither her constituents nor mine make a habit of reading Hansard. Laughter. However, I will move on. Several factors influenced this amendment. There is the concern that the Holyrood site is not the most suitable. I know that we are past the time when the then Scottish secretary was advised against choosing other than Calton hill. I accept that time has moved on, that the General Post Office building is not available and that other considerations will have to be taken into account. The amendment asks for those other considerations to be taken into account. In the time that has elapsed, we have also found that the four-acre site at Holyrood, which was judged to be adequate, is probably not adequate. When any of the local authority people in this chamber were building big, they would usually have a wee bit of land for contingency expansion, but no contingency expansion has been built into this grand design. However, there is a site that has not yet been built on; I think that it has been procured by Teague Homes (Scotland) Ltd. If we use the time that the amendment asks for productively, perhaps we could revisit that decision. Do the builders need all that land? Could we do a bit of business with them? We need some land for expansion purposes, as the site has already expanded from 16,000 sq m to 23,000 sq m. I am not arguing about that—we may well need the extra support staff to cope with the expansion. However, before the people—who pay for everything—see how the Parliament benefits the quality of decision making in Scotland, they will ask \"What do you need all those staff for?\" I appeal directly to the First Minister for time to sell our idea to the people who elected us. There is no doubt about the site's shortcomings. I am not talking about the design of the building, but about how the site is hemmed in and cannot expand without going into Holyrood park. I think that Patricia Ferguson said that such an expansion might enhance and bring life to the park. However, we do not want too much life in the park; we like it as it is. Furthermore, we do not want the kind of office-block accommodation that we have at the moment. There is another important point that members did not raise, perhaps because Robin Harper has a specialist interest in these matters. When I first expressed an interest in this issue, I was contacted—before the election—by many architects, two or three of whom advised me that no wind-tunnel test had been done. At least, we have not seen any results of a wind-tunnel test. Perhaps when Mr McLeish sums up, he can tell us whether such a test has been carried out and, if not, whether there are plans to have one. We also have to ask what would happen if the plans were to fail that test. Frank MacAveety suggested that the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body could do everything that I am asking for. However, if the site is not big enough and if an independent assessor's estimate shows that extra land is needed, will the SPCB be entitled to go ahead with its plans? We have been told that the Executive has full responsibility for the configuration of roads around the site. Who will be responsible for the recalibration—which is referred to in documents that I have—that the site will probably need? The amendment seeks time for us to find answers to such questions. Traffic is the big concern in Edinburgh. Too many people are trying to get to work from Newington or by using London Road. Most members may not be familiar with Edinburgh's traffic problems, which are becoming intolerable. Those problems are operating against the city's best interests and the question is too serious to leave to the SPCB to decide in our interest. The interests are much wider than that. When members come to vote, they should remember that we are not saying that Holyrood should not go ahead, but that too many questions remain unanswered. We plead for time to find adequate answers to those questions and to find a building for this Parliament of which we can be proud.", "EditedTextHTML": "I think that that is true, but it is also true that neither her constituents nor mine make a habit of reading Hansard. [Laughter.] However, I will move on.

Several factors influenced this amendment. There is the concern that the Holyrood site is not the most suitable. I know that we are past the time when the then Scottish secretary was advised against choosing other than Calton hill. I accept that time has moved on, that the General Post Office building is not available and that other considerations will have to be taken into account. The amendment asks for those other considerations to be taken into account.

In the time that has elapsed, we have also found that the four-acre site at Holyrood, which was judged to be adequate, is probably not adequate. When any of the local authority people in this chamber were building big, they would usually have a wee bit of land for contingency expansion, but no contingency expansion has been built into this grand design.

However, there is a site that has not yet been built on; I think that it has been procured by Teague Homes (Scotland) Ltd. If we use the time that the amendment asks for productively, perhaps we could revisit that decision. Do the builders need all that land? Could we do a bit of business with them? We need some land for expansion purposes, as the site has already expanded from 16,000 sq m to 23,000 sq m. I am not arguing about that—we may well need the extra support staff to cope with the expansion. However, before the people—who pay for everything—see how the Parliament benefits the quality of decision making in Scotland, they will ask \"What do you need all those staff for?\"

I appeal directly to the First Minister for time to sell our idea to the people who elected us. There is no doubt about the site's shortcomings. I am not talking about the design of the building, but about how the site is hemmed in and cannot expand without going into Holyrood park. I think that Patricia Ferguson said that such an expansion might enhance and bring life to the park. However, we do not want too much life in the park; we like it as it is. Furthermore, we do not want the kind of office-block accommodation that we have at the moment.

There is another important point that members did not raise, perhaps because Robin Harper has a specialist interest in these matters. When I first expressed an interest in this issue, I was contacted—before the election—by many architects, two or three of whom advised me that no wind-tunnel test had been done. At least, we have not seen any results of a wind-tunnel test. Perhaps when Mr McLeish sums up, he can tell us whether such a test has been carried out and, if not, whether there are plans to have one. We also have to ask what would happen if the plans were to fail that test.

Frank MacAveety suggested that the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body could do everything that I am asking for. However, if the site is not big enough and if an independent assessor's estimate shows that extra land is needed, will the SPCB be entitled to go ahead with its plans? We have been told that the Executive has full responsibility for the configuration of roads around the site. Who will be responsible for the recalibration—which is referred to in documents that I have—that the site will probably need? The amendment seeks time for us to find answers to such questions.

Traffic is the big concern in Edinburgh. Too many people are trying to get to work from Newington or by using London Road. Most members may not be familiar with Edinburgh's traffic problems, which are becoming intolerable. Those problems are operating against the city's best interests and the question is too serious to leave to the SPCB to decide in our interest. The interests are much wider than that.

When members come to vote, they should remember that we are not saying that Holyrood should not go ahead, but that too many questions remain unanswered. We plead for time to find adequate answers to those questions and to find a building for this Parliament of which we can be proud.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C704878", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 212.0, "ContributionID": 704878, "EditedText": "I call Henry McLeish to wind up for the Executive.", "EditedTextHTML": "I call Henry McLeish to wind up for the Executive.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C704881", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 219.0, "ContributionID": 704881, "EditedText": "I think that Margo is just being greedy now—I have been generous in outlining the fact that there will be wind-tunnel tests. Let us hang on for the outcome of those and a host of other technical tests that are taking place. This debate has been characterised by a lot of passion. People complain about the lack of passion among politicians, but we are passionate. Today, the First Minister gave not only a political commitment, but a passionate commitment to advance this project. That commitment was not for Donald Dewar, but for the people of Scotland. I said that we had a big decision to make today. A lot of sound practical questions have been raised about the Parliament, to which I will return. However, there has been a slight element of politics as well. I am sure that people in all parties—some of whom are now being whipped— will be approaching Mr Gorrie's amendment in one of two ways. Some people will be attracted to the notion that by having a delay we will be able to examine some of the practical issues. However, others will support the amendment because they want us to remove ourselves from Holyrood. Those people want to return to old shibboleths such as the old Royal High School. I am being constructive: let us cut through the issues and be crystal clear on what the amendment is about. If this debate is to be practical, I think that I have some of the answers to the problems. However, if the exercise—and let us be honest about this—is about removing ourselves from Holyrood and looking at alternative sites, we are talking about delaying discussions not for a short time, but for a prolonged period. At the end of the delay, we will not know whether that delay was on the grounds of costs and other practicalities or on the grounds of politics.", "EditedTextHTML": "I think that Margo is just being greedy now—I have been generous in outlining the fact that there will be wind-tunnel tests. Let us hang on for the outcome of those and a host of other technical tests that are taking place.

This debate has been characterised by a lot of passion. People complain about the lack of passion among politicians, but we are passionate. Today, the First Minister gave not only a political commitment, but a passionate commitment to advance this project. That commitment was not for Donald Dewar, but for the people of Scotland.

I said that we had a big decision to make today. A lot of sound practical questions have been raised about the Parliament, to which I will return. However, there has been a slight element of politics as well. I am sure that people in all parties—some of whom are now being whipped— will be approaching Mr Gorrie's amendment in one of two ways. Some people will be attracted to the notion that by having a delay we will be able to examine some of the practical issues. However, others will support the amendment because they want us to remove ourselves from Holyrood. Those people want to return to old shibboleths such as the old Royal High School.

I am being constructive: let us cut through the issues and be crystal clear on what the amendment is about. If this debate is to be practical, I think that I have some of the answers to the problems. However, if the exercise—and let us be honest about this—is about removing ourselves from Holyrood and looking at alternative sites, we are talking about delaying discussions not for a short time, but for a prolonged period. At the end of the delay, we will not know whether that delay was on the grounds of costs and other practicalities or on the grounds of politics.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C704883", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 223.0, "ContributionID": 704883, "EditedText": "If Fergus does not mind, I would rather move on. I always give way, but there are two or three practical issues about which I want to speak. A number of important practical points have been made about transport, the environment and special needs. I believe that the details in the material on all those issues will go some way towards allaying members' fears. It is obviously critical that there is wheelchair access on the floor of the new chamber. There are no members in wheelchairs now, but if we are, as we say, an inclusive Parliament, we must build for every contingency. That will be done. Robin Harper is massively wrong about the environment issues. I will send him all the material that I have. The new Parliament will rightly be one of the most environmentally sensitive buildings that we have ever produced in this country. The details will be forthcoming.", "EditedTextHTML": "If Fergus does not mind, I would rather move on. I always give way, but there are two or three practical issues about which I want to speak.

A number of important practical points have been made about transport, the environment and special needs. I believe that the details in the material on all those issues will go some way towards allaying members' fears.

It is obviously critical that there is wheelchair access on the floor of the new chamber. There are no members in wheelchairs now, but if we are, as we say, an inclusive Parliament, we must build for every contingency. That will be done.

Robin Harper is massively wrong about the environment issues. I will send him all the material that I have. The new Parliament will rightly be one of the most environmentally sensitive buildings that we have ever produced in this country. The details will be forthcoming.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2188E70P92C704884", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harper, Robin", "ID": 2188, "PartyName": "Scottish Green Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Green", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robin Harper", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robin Harper rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 225.0, "ContributionID": 704884, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2228E151P202C704890", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26623, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 235.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 235.0, "ID": 26623, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McCabe, Tom", "ID": 2228, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Tom McCabe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Parliament (Mr Tom McCabe): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 239.0, "ContributionID": 704890, "EditedText": "Before moving the business motion, I want to inform members about the proposals to improve the way in which information appears and is recorded in the business bulletin. It will have been no surprise to anyone that, during the transition period, there have been a number of occasions on which it has been necessary to introduce business motions that amend the previously agreed business programme. Although that has happened more often than we would have liked, on each occasion it has been done in an attempt to reflect the views and requirements of other members and to ensure that discussions on particular subjects could take place. The debate that we have just had on the Holyrood project is a classic example of that. However, the Parliamentary Bureau is conscious that the way in which changes have been set out in the business bulletin has not always been as clear or as readily understood as members would have liked. It is equally important that members of the public who want to plan visits to the Parliament to watch specific debates can do so. The business bulletin must, therefore, provide information in a manner in which it can be readily understood by the public and which allows them to engage properly in the business of the Parliament. With that in mind, the Parliamentary Bureau is reviewing the format of the business bulletin with a view to making it as clear and as informative as possible. We hope that that process will go some way to addressing members' concerns about the changes to the business programme that have been recorded in the business bulletin. This business motion sets out a programme of business for the Parliament up to and including Friday 2 July. The motion proposes that on Wednesday 23 June there should be a statement by the Deputy First Minister on freedom of information. That will be followed by a statement by the Minister for Children and Education on the consultation methods that will be adopted for the proposed education bill that the First Minister announced in yesterday's statement to Parliament. That will be followed by an Executive debate on devolved legislation to be considered by the United Kingdom Parliament. There will then be consideration of Parliamentary Bureau business, including a motion that the Scotland Act 1998 (Agency Arrangements) (Specification) Order 1999 be considered by the Parliament. An explanatory note on the agency agreements has been published in today's business bulletin. There will also be a motion on the opening days of the office of the clerk during the summer recess. Those last two items will be taken without debate. The last item of business proposed for Wednesday 23 June is a members' business debate on motion SM1-47 in the name of Mr Brian Adam on the peripheral route around Aberdeen. On the morning of Thursday 24 June, provision has been made for discussion of the first non- Executive business on a motion from the Scottish National party. The debate is expected to be about the privatisation of public services, although that is subject to confirmation. Details of the motion will be published in advance in the business bulletin. On the afternoon of 24 June, it is intended that there will be a further question time and open question time, which will be followed by a ministerial statement on financial issues and, thereafter, a debate on the economy of Scotland. It is proposed that the last meeting of Parliament before the summer recess should be held on the morning of Friday 2 July. It is intended that the business that day will comprise question time and open question time, followed by a debate on Executive business. I move,That the Parliament agrees the following programme of business: Wednesday 23 June 19992.30 pm Statement by the Deputy First Minister on Freedom of Information followed by, no later than 3.00 pm Ministerial Statement on Consultation on the Education Bill followed by Executive Debate on Devolved Legislation to be considered by theUK Parliament followed by Parliamentary Bureau business to include: Motion that the Scotland Act 1998 (Agency Arrangements) (Specification) Order 1999 be considered by the Parliament (to be taken without debate) Motion on days when the Office of the Clerk is open (to be taken without debate) 5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business Debate on the subject of motion S1M-47 in the name of Brian Adam To be concluded no later than 30 minutes after the commencement of the debate without any question being put. Thursday 24 June 19999.30 am Non-Executive Business (on a motion from the SNP) followed by Business Motion 2.30 pm Question Time 3.00 pm Open Question Time followed by, no later than 3.15 pm Ministerial Statement on Financial Issues followed by Executive Debate on the Economy of Scotland 5.00 pm Decision Time Friday 2 July 9.30 am Question Time 10.00 am Open Question Time followed by, no later than 10.15 am Executive Business", "EditedTextHTML": "Before moving the business motion, I want to inform members about the proposals to improve the way in which information appears and is recorded in the business bulletin.

It will have been no surprise to anyone that, during the transition period, there have been a number of occasions on which it has been necessary to introduce business motions that amend the previously agreed business programme. Although that has happened more often than we would have liked, on each occasion it has been done in an attempt to reflect the views and requirements of other members and to ensure that discussions on particular subjects could take place. The debate that we have just had on the Holyrood project is a classic example of that.

However, the Parliamentary Bureau is conscious that the way in which changes have been set out in the business bulletin has not always been as clear or as readily understood as members would have liked.

It is equally important that members of the public who want to plan visits to the Parliament to watch specific debates can do so. The business bulletin must, therefore, provide information in a manner in which it can be readily understood by the public and which allows them to engage properly in the business of the Parliament. With that in mind, the Parliamentary Bureau is reviewing the format of the business bulletin with a view to making it as clear and as informative as possible. We hope that that process will go some way to addressing members' concerns about the changes to the business programme that have been recorded in the business bulletin.

This business motion sets out a programme of business for the Parliament up to and including Friday 2 July. The motion proposes that on Wednesday 23 June there should be a statement by the Deputy First Minister on freedom of information. That will be followed by a statement by the Minister for Children and Education on the consultation methods that will be adopted for the proposed education bill that the First Minister announced in yesterday's statement to Parliament.

That will be followed by an Executive debate on devolved legislation to be considered by the United Kingdom Parliament. There will then be consideration of Parliamentary Bureau business, including a motion that the Scotland Act 1998 (Agency Arrangements) (Specification) Order 1999 be considered by the Parliament. An explanatory note on the agency agreements has been published in today's business bulletin. There will also be a motion on the opening days of the office of the clerk during the summer recess. Those last two items will be taken without debate.

The last item of business proposed for Wednesday 23 June is a members' business debate on motion SM1-47 in the name of Mr Brian Adam on the peripheral route around Aberdeen.

On the morning of Thursday 24 June, provision has been made for discussion of the first non- Executive business on a motion from the Scottish National party. The debate is expected to be about the privatisation of public services, although that is subject to confirmation. Details of the motion will be published in advance in the business bulletin.

On the afternoon of 24 June, it is intended that there will be a further question time and open question time, which will be followed by a ministerial statement on financial issues and, thereafter, a debate on the economy of Scotland.

It is proposed that the last meeting of Parliament before the summer recess should be held on the morning of Friday 2 July. It is intended that the business that day will comprise question time and open question time, followed by a debate on Executive business.

I move,

That the Parliament agrees the following programme of business:

Wednesday 23 June 1999

2.30 pm Statement by the Deputy First Minister on Freedom of Information followed by, no later than 3.00 pm Ministerial Statement on

Consultation on the Education Bill followed by Executive Debate on Devolved

Legislation to be considered by the

UK Parliament followed by Parliamentary Bureau business to include:

Motion that the Scotland Act 1998 (Agency Arrangements) (Specification) Order 1999 be considered by the Parliament (to be taken without debate)

Motion on days when the Office of the Clerk is open (to be taken without debate)

5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business

Debate on the subject of motion S1M-47 in the name of Brian Adam

To be concluded no later than 30 minutes after the commencement of the debate without any question being put.

Thursday 24 June 1999

9.30 am Non-Executive Business (on a motion from the SNP) followed by Business Motion 2.30 pm Question Time 3.00 pm Open Question Time followed by, no later than 3.15 pm Ministerial Statement on Financial Issues followed by Executive Debate on the Economy of Scotland

5.00 pm Decision Time Friday 2 July

9.30 am Question Time 10.00 am Open Question Time followed by, no later than 10.15 am Executive Business

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C704891", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26623, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 235.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 235.0, "ID": 26623, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 241.0, "ContributionID": 704891, "EditedText": "There are no requests from any member to speak against the motion, so I will put the question. The question is, that motion S1M-55, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "There are no requests from any member to speak against the motion, so I will put the question. The question is, that motion S1M-55, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704893", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26623, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 235.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 235.0, "ID": 26623, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 244.0, "ContributionID": 704893, "EditedText": "Question, That the meeting be now adjourned until 2.30 pm today, put and agreed to.—Iain Smith.", "EditedTextHTML": "Question, That the meeting be now adjourned until 2.30 pm today, put and agreed to.—[Iain Smith.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1893E47P78C704902", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26624, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 248.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26625, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 251.0, "QuestionHeading": "Farming", "QuestionHeadingID": 26627, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 263.0, "DisplayOrder": 263.0, "ID": 26627, "ParentID": 26625 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnstone, Alex", "ID": 1893, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Johnstone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "2. Alex Johnstone (North-East Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 264.0, "ContributionID": 704902, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what its immediate priorities will be to stimulate recovery in the Scottish farming industry. (S1O-14) The Minister for Rural Affairs (Ross Finnie): The Executive is committed to supporting and enhancing the rural economy, and agriculture is an important and integral part of that strategy. My firm objective is to develop an approach to the agriculture sector in Scotland that results in its long-term sustainability.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what its immediate priorities will be to stimulate recovery in the Scottish farming industry. (S1O-14) The Minister for Rural Affairs (Ross Finnie): The Executive is committed to supporting and enhancing the rural economy, and agriculture is an important and integral part of that strategy. My firm objective is to develop an approach to the agriculture sector in Scotland that results in its long-term sustainability.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1832E96P195C704905", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26624, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 248.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26625, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 251.0, "QuestionHeading": "Further and Higher Education", "QuestionHeadingID": 26628, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 270.0, "DisplayOrder": 270.0, "ID": 26628, "ParentID": 26625 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Livingstone, Marilyn", "ID": 1832, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Kirkcaldy" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Marilyn Livingstone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "3. Marilyn Livingstone (Kirkcaldy) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 271.0, "ContributionID": 704905, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive if it will inform the Parliament of the provision it intends to make as a result of the comprehensive spending review for an increase in grant to further and higher education over the next three years. (S1O-47) The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning (Henry McLeish): Further and higher education in Scotland is to receive a massive boost over the period covered by the comprehensive spending review. In total, the FE and HE budgets will receive an additional £493 million over the period to support further increases in student numbers, promote wider access, modernise and improve quality and improve standards.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive if it will inform the Parliament of the provision it intends to make as a result of the comprehensive spending review for an increase in grant to further and higher education over the next three years. (S1O-47) The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning (Henry McLeish): Further and higher education in Scotland is to receive a massive boost over the period covered by the comprehensive spending review. In total, the FE and HE budgets will receive an additional £493 million over the period to support further increases in student numbers, promote wider access, modernise and improve quality and improve standards.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1901E57P277C704908", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26624, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 248.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26625, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 251.0, "QuestionHeading": "Football Development", "QuestionHeadingID": 26629, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 277.0, "DisplayOrder": 277.0, "ID": 26629, "ParentID": 26625 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Allan", "ID": 1901, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Cunninghame North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Allan Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "4. Allan Wilson (Cunninghame North) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 278.0, "ContributionID": 704908, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will make a statement on the development of the Scottish football partnership to encourage the development of talented young footballers in Scotland. (S1O-27)", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it will make a statement on the development of the Scottish football partnership to encourage the development of talented young footballers in Scotland. (S1O-27)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2207E94P262C704912", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26624, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 248.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26625, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 251.0, "QuestionHeading": "Pre-school Education", "QuestionHeadingID": 26630, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 286.0, "DisplayOrder": 286.0, "ID": 26630, "ParentID": 26625 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Barrie, Scott", "ID": 2207, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dunfermline West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Scott Barrie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "5. Scott Barrie (Dunfermline West) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 287.0, "ContributionID": 704912, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it intends to implement a range of pre-school initiatives relating to nurseries, day nurseries and playgroups. (S1O56)", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it intends to implement a range of pre-school initiatives relating to nurseries, day nurseries and playgroups. (S1O56)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2207E94P262C704914", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26624, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 248.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26625, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 251.0, "QuestionHeading": "Pre-school Education", "QuestionHeadingID": 26630, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 286.0, "DisplayOrder": 286.0, "ID": 26630, "ParentID": 26625 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Barrie, Scott", "ID": 2207, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dunfermline West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Scott Barrie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Scott Barrie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 291.0, "ContributionID": 704914, "EditedText": "I welcome my party's commitment to nursery provision for all three-year-olds whose parents want it, but some concern has been expressed that that will mean the end of playgroup provision. Will the minister join me in hoping that local authorities and voluntary sector providers will work in partnership to provide services to all pre-school children?", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome my party's commitment to nursery provision for all three-year-olds whose parents want it, but some concern has been expressed that that will mean the end of playgroup provision. Will the minister join me in hoping that local authorities and voluntary sector providers will work in partnership to provide services to all pre-school children?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C704920", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26624, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 248.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26625, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 251.0, "QuestionHeading": "Drug Treatment Programmes", "QuestionHeadingID": 26632, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 302.0, "DisplayOrder": 302.0, "ID": 26632, "ParentID": 26625 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 305.0, "ContributionID": 704920, "EditedText": "Does the minister share my serious concern—and that of members from all parties— about the shortage of treatment programmes in Scotland, particularly in certain health board areas such as Fife and Forth Valley, in my constituency of Mid Scotland and Fife? Does she share my concern about the shortage of residential rehabilitation beds? There are only 10 residential treatment centres in Scotland, with 120 beds. What will she do to increase the number of treatment programmes and centres as well as to learn from the best drug treatment practice in the United States?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the minister share my serious concern—and that of members from all parties— about the shortage of treatment programmes in Scotland, particularly in certain health board areas such as Fife and Forth Valley, in my constituency of Mid Scotland and Fife? Does she share my concern about the shortage of residential rehabilitation beds? There are only 10 residential treatment centres in Scotland, with 120 beds. What will she do to increase the number of treatment programmes and centres as well as to learn from the best drug treatment practice in the United States?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C704925", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26624, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 248.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26625, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 251.0, "QuestionHeading": "Drug Treatment Programmes", "QuestionHeadingID": 26632, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 302.0, "DisplayOrder": 302.0, "ID": 26632, "ParentID": 26625 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 315.0, "ContributionID": 704925, "EditedText": "As I indicated in my firstanswer, there is a real commitment by this Executive to treatment. I indicated that significant additional resources are going towards that. It would, however, be wrong to suggest that treatment should be at the expense of investment and action to tackle prevention. By definition, if we reduce the level of addiction, we will be required to devote fewer resources to treatment and rehabilitation. We could probably reach agreement in this chamber on tackling some of the root causes which lead people to drug addiction in the first place.", "EditedTextHTML": "As I indicated in my first

answer, there is a real commitment by this Executive to treatment. I indicated that significant additional resources are going towards that. It would, however, be wrong to suggest that treatment should be at the expense of investment and action to tackle prevention. By definition, if we reduce the level of addiction, we will be required to devote fewer resources to treatment and rehabilitation. We could probably reach agreement in this chamber on tackling some of the root causes which lead people to drug addiction in the first place.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2029E47P167C704926", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26624, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 248.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26625, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 251.0, "QuestionHeading": "Representative Office (Brussels)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26633, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "DisplayOrder": 317.0, "ID": 26633, "ParentID": 26625 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Henry, Hugh", "ID": 2029, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Hugh Henry", "SpeakerDisplayName": "8. Hugh Henry (Paisley South) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 318.0, "ContributionID": 704926, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive when it believes that the Scottish representative office will open in Brussels. (S1O-32) The Minister for Finance (Mr Jack McConnell): The Scottish representative office will open for business on 1 July and will be officially opened in the autumn, when the EU institutions return from their summer break.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive when it believes that the Scottish representative office will open in Brussels. (S1O-32) The Minister for Finance (Mr Jack McConnell): The Scottish representative office will open for business on 1 July and will be officially opened in the autumn, when the EU institutions return from their summer break.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C704928", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26624, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 248.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26625, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 251.0, "QuestionHeading": "Representative Office (Brussels)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26633, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "DisplayOrder": 317.0, "ID": 26633, "ParentID": 26625 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 322.0, "ContributionID": 704928, "EditedText": "Scotland Europa has done a tremendous job representing Scotland's interests in Europe since it began in 1992. We hope that a strong partnership will develop in the years ahead between Scotland House and Scotland Europa. To assist that partnership, I have written to Scotland's new MEPs, to congratulate them and to invite them to meet me to discuss how they can help us promote Scotland's interests in Europe.", "EditedTextHTML": "Scotland Europa has done a tremendous job representing Scotland's interests in Europe since it began in 1992. We hope that a strong partnership will develop in the years ahead between Scotland House and Scotland Europa. To assist that partnership, I have written to Scotland's new MEPs, to congratulate them and to invite them to meet me to discuss how they can help us promote Scotland's interests in Europe.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1931E120P189C704930", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26624, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 248.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26625, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 251.0, "QuestionHeading": "Pre-school Education", "QuestionHeadingID": 26634, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 324.0, "DisplayOrder": 324.0, "ID": 26634, "ParentID": 26625 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Muldoon, Bristow", "ID": 1931, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Livingston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bristow Muldoon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bristow Muldoon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 327.0, "ContributionID": 704930, "EditedText": "As a representative of a West Lothian constituency, where nursery provision for four-year-olds is already highly developed, I welcome the minister's statement. Can he comment on the impact that he expects the increase in the number of places for three- year-olds to have on educational attainment levels and on social justice?", "EditedTextHTML": "As a representative of a West Lothian constituency, where nursery provision for four-year-olds is already highly developed, I welcome the minister's statement. Can he comment on the impact that he expects the increase in the number of places for three- year-olds to have on educational attainment levels and on social justice?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1840E82P158C704933", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26624, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 248.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26625, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 251.0, "QuestionHeading": "Gaelic-medium Education", "QuestionHeadingID": 26635, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 331.0, "DisplayOrder": 331.0, "ID": 26635, "ParentID": 26625 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macmillan, Maureen", "ID": 1840, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Maureen Macmillan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Maureen Macmillan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 334.0, "ContributionID": 704933, "EditedText": "Will the minister examine the funding for local development officers working for Comhairle nan Sgoiltean Araich to see if the method of funding can be improved?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister examine the funding for local development officers working for Comhairle nan Sgoiltean Araich to see if the method of funding can be improved?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1889E118P162C704934", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26624, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 248.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26625, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 251.0, "QuestionHeading": "Gaelic-medium Education", "QuestionHeadingID": 26635, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 331.0, "DisplayOrder": 331.0, "ID": 26635, "ParentID": 26625 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morrison, Mr Alasdair", "ID": 1889, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Western Isles" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning and Gaelic", "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morrison", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Morrison: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 336.0, "ContributionID": 704934, "EditedText": "I acknowledge Ms Macmillan's commitment to the Gaelic language and its further development. We regularly discuss with Comhairle nan Sgoiltean Araich their programme and achievements and I am due to meet them in the next few weeks. Most of the development officers are funded by government grant and local authorities contribute in some cases. I am aware of the difficulty in Highland and I hope that it will be resolved by the usual means of constructive discussion.", "EditedTextHTML": "I acknowledge Ms Macmillan's commitment to the Gaelic language and its further development. We regularly discuss with Comhairle nan Sgoiltean Araich their programme and achievements and I am due to meet them in the next few weeks. Most of the development officers are funded by government grant and local authorities contribute in some cases. I am aware of the difficulty in Highland and I hope that it will be resolved by the usual means of constructive discussion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1811E172P455C704936", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26624, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 248.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26625, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 251.0, "QuestionHeading": "Long-term Care", "QuestionHeadingID": 26636, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 338.0, "DisplayOrder": 338.0, "ID": 26636, "ParentID": 26625 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ullrich, Kay", "ID": 1811, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kay Ullrich", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Kay Ullrich: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 341.0, "ContributionID": 704936, "EditedText": "I am particularly concerned about support for Scotland's half a million carers. Their caring services save the public purse over £3.5 billion a year. The minister will be aware that in February this year a ring-fenced sum of £140 million of new money was given to local authorities in England specifically to provide respite care. Will the minister give a commitment to an equivalent ring-fenced package of new money for carers in Scotland?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am particularly concerned about support for Scotland's half a million carers. Their caring services save the public purse over £3.5 billion a year. The minister will be aware that in February this year a ring-fenced sum of £140 million of new money was given to local authorities in England specifically to provide respite care. Will the minister give a commitment to an equivalent ring-fenced package of new money for carers in Scotland?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2033E106P139C704937", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26624, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 248.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26625, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 251.0, "QuestionHeading": "Long-term Care", "QuestionHeadingID": 26636, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 338.0, "DisplayOrder": 338.0, "ID": 26636, "ParentID": 26625 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gray, Iain", "ID": 2033, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Pentlands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Iain Gray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Iain Gray: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 343.0, "ContributionID": 704937, "EditedText": "I am grateful to Mrs Ullrich for raising this matter. The position of carers is something to which we give great importance, and she will know that I launched Carers Week last week and that I undertook a number of engagements during that week. Over the next three years, £5 million is earmarked in Scotland for increasing respite care to help carers in the task that they undertake. It is important that respite services are provided in ways that meet local needs. I am working with officials in the local authorities so that we can ascertain at the end of the year that the money has been used to increase the respite care available.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful to Mrs Ullrich for raising this matter. The position of carers is something to which we give great importance, and she will know that I launched Carers Week last week and that I undertook a number of engagements during that week. Over the next three years, £5 million is earmarked in Scotland for increasing respite care to help carers in the task that they undertake. It is important that respite services are provided in ways that meet local needs. I am working with officials in the local authorities so that we can ascertain at the end of the year that the money has been used to increase the respite care available.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1837E108P186C704941", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26624, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 248.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26625, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 251.0, "QuestionHeading": "Victims of Crime", "QuestionHeadingID": 26637, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 349.0, "DisplayOrder": 349.0, "ID": 26637, "ParentID": 26625 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mulligan, Mary", "ID": 1837, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Linlithgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Mulligan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Mulligan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 352.0, "ContributionID": 704941, "EditedText": "Given that many victims go to branches of Victim Support Scotland, which is staffed mainly by volunteers, will there be additional resources for the umbrella organisation to ensure that it can develop support groups throughout the whole of Scotland?", "EditedTextHTML": "Given that many victims go to branches of Victim Support Scotland, which is staffed mainly by volunteers, will there be additional resources for the umbrella organisation to ensure that it can develop support groups throughout the whole of Scotland?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1926E190P479C704946", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26624, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 248.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26625, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 251.0, "QuestionHeading": "Roads (Aberdeen)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26639, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 363.0, "DisplayOrder": 363.0, "ID": 26639, "ParentID": 26625 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Adam, Brian", "ID": 1926, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Adam", "SpeakerDisplayName": "14. Brian Adam (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 364.0, "ContributionID": 704946, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it intends to act to expedite the building of the western peripheral route round Aberdeen. (S1O-12)", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it intends to act to expedite the building of the western peripheral route round Aberdeen. (S1O-12)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1863E284P532C704951", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26624, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 248.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26625, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 251.0, "QuestionHeading": "Lockerbie", "QuestionHeadingID": 26640, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 372.0, "DisplayOrder": 372.0, "ID": 26640, "ParentID": 26625 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Cunningham, Roseanna", "ID": 1863, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Perth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Roseanna Cunningham", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Roseanna Cunningham: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 375.0, "ContributionID": 704951, "EditedText": "The minister will recall that, when the issue was raised in the other place, we were frequently assured that the matter of a third-country trial was not just a devolved issue but one that concerned the Foreign Office. Has he considered approaching the Foreign Office for a contribution towards the enormous cost of the trial—which I am sure he would not want to be funded entirely from the public purse—if indeed the Foreign Office has responsibility in the matter?", "EditedTextHTML": "The minister will recall that, when the issue was raised in the other place, we were frequently assured that the matter of a third-country trial was not just a devolved issue but one that concerned the Foreign Office. Has he considered approaching the Foreign Office for a contribution towards the enormous cost of the trial—which I am sure he would not want to be funded entirely from the public purse—if indeed the Foreign Office has responsibility in the matter?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1877E44P176C704956", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26624, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 248.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26625, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 251.0, "QuestionHeading": "Homelessness", "QuestionHeadingID": 26641, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "DisplayOrder": 379.0, "ID": 26641, "ParentID": 26625 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Alexander, Ms Wendy", "ID": 1877, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Wendy Alexander", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Alexander: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 386.0, "ContributionID": 704956, "EditedText": "On the homelessness review, I can certainly give an undertaking that there will be wide consultation in Scotland. On Fiona Hyslop's wider point, I am happy to say that this Administration is wholly committed to legislation on housing. As she knows, the consultation period for the green paper closed only a matter of days ago. When I met housing organisations in Scotland this morning, they were delighted that there would be a period to consider the responses and then the opportunity to use the innovative procedures that this Parliament has introduced, to consider how to take forward legislation.", "EditedTextHTML": "On the homelessness review, I can certainly give an undertaking that there will be wide consultation in Scotland. On Fiona Hyslop's wider point, I am happy to say that this Administration is wholly committed to legislation on housing. As she knows, the consultation period for the green paper closed only a matter of days ago. When I met housing organisations in Scotland this morning, they were delighted that there would be a period to consider the responses and then the opportunity to use the innovative procedures that this Parliament has introduced, to consider how to take forward legislation.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C704961", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26624, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 248.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26625, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 251.0, "QuestionHeading": "Fire Service", "QuestionHeadingID": 26642, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 392.0, "DisplayOrder": 392.0, "ID": 26642, "ParentID": 26625 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 397.0, "ContributionID": 704961, "EditedText": "Order. You must ask a question, Mr Quinan. You cannot read out a long quotation in the middle of a question.", "EditedTextHTML": "Order. You must ask a question, Mr Quinan. You cannot read out a long quotation in the middle of a question.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2134E160P198C704964", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26624, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 248.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26625, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 251.0, "QuestionHeading": "Health Care", "QuestionHeadingID": 26643, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 403.0, "DisplayOrder": 403.0, "ID": 26643, "ParentID": 26625 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McMahon, Michael", "ID": 2134, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton North and Bellshill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael McMahon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "18. Mr Michael McMahon (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 404.0, "ContributionID": 704964, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive how it intends to promote patient-centred health care in Scotland. (S1O-60) The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): Patient-centred health care is central to the vision of the Scottish Executive. We intend to continue to develop the recommendations set out in the white paper, \"Designed to Care\", published in December 1997, as part of our broad agenda to ensure that wherever patients make use of the NHS, they receive the highest quality of care.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive how it intends to promote patient-centred health care in Scotland. (S1O-60) The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): Patient-centred health care is central to the vision of the Scottish Executive. We intend to continue to develop the recommendations set out in the white paper, \"Designed to Care\", published in December 1997, as part of our broad agenda to ensure that wherever patients make use of the NHS, they receive the highest quality of care.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C704969", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26644, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 410.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26645, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Partnership Agreement", "QuestionHeadingID": 26646, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 414.0, "DisplayOrder": 414.0, "ID": 26646, "ParentID": 26645 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister (Donald Dewar): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 417.0, "ContributionID": 704969, "EditedText": "I like the phrase or two. As a partnership, we are committed to introducing a programme of initiatives that is in the interests of Scotland. That will be done in a number of ways: in the legislative programme that we announced yesterday, in the spending priorities that we will advance and reflect, and in administrative action. We are committed to changing and improving the standard of life in Scotland across a whole range of issues, including education, health, housing, jobs and the environment.", "EditedTextHTML": "I like the phrase or two.

As a partnership, we are committed to introducing a programme of initiatives that is in the interests of Scotland. That will be done in a number of ways: in the legislative programme that we announced yesterday, in the spending priorities that we will advance and reflect, and in administrative action. We are committed to changing and improving the standard of life in Scotland across a whole range of issues, including

education, health, housing, jobs and the environment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C704970", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26644, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 410.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26645, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Partnership Agreement", "QuestionHeadingID": 26646, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 414.0, "DisplayOrder": 414.0, "ID": 26646, "ParentID": 26645 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 419.0, "ContributionID": 704970, "EditedText": "Can the First Minister tell us what the environmental reasons are for imposing a toll tax on the M8?", "EditedTextHTML": "Can the First Minister tell us what the environmental reasons are for imposing a toll tax on the M8?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C704972", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26644, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 410.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26645, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Partnership Agreement", "QuestionHeadingID": 26646, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 414.0, "DisplayOrder": 414.0, "ID": 26646, "ParentID": 26645 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 423.0, "ContributionID": 704972, "EditedText": "There has been a barrage of criticism and complaint from Graeme Maurice, the Labour leader of West Lothian Council. Does he not have a point when he argues that a toll tax on the M8 will divert traffic to less suitable roads, making things worse for the environment and raising safety concerns?", "EditedTextHTML": "There has been a barrage of criticism and complaint from Graeme Maurice, the Labour leader of West Lothian Council. Does he not have a point when he argues that a toll tax on the M8 will divert traffic to less suitable roads, making things worse for the environment and raising safety concerns?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C704974", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26644, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 410.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26645, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Partnership Agreement", "QuestionHeadingID": 26646, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 414.0, "DisplayOrder": 414.0, "ID": 26646, "ParentID": 26645 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 427.0, "ContributionID": 704974, "EditedText": "The First Minister says, \"if\" there is a move in that direction—does that indicate some doubt? Let me try a simple question. When the ministerial car takes the First Minister back to Glasgow, who will pay the toll tax? Will he pay, or will the taxpayer, and how much will it be?", "EditedTextHTML": "The First Minister says, \"if\" there is a move in that direction—does that indicate some doubt? Let me try a simple question. When the ministerial car takes the First Minister back to Glasgow, who will pay the toll tax? Will he pay, or will the taxpayer, and how much will it be?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C704978", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26644, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 410.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26645, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Partnership Agreement", "QuestionHeadingID": 26646, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 414.0, "DisplayOrder": 414.0, "ID": 26646, "ParentID": 26645 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 435.0, "ContributionID": 704978, "EditedText": "I know that Donald Gorrie takes a great interest in those things, and I suspect that he rather fancies himself as a representative of youth. It shows a confidence in that matter that I find implausible. I have never taken the view that young people had totally different interests from those of the rest of the population. Young people are interested in educational opportunity and—essentially—in job opportunity. Mr Gorrie might want to consider the impressive statistic that, since the Government came to power at Westminster, the new deal has halved the number of 18 to 24-year-olds claiming unemployment benefit. It is the same with housing, the health service and a range of social services. If we get those matters right, and bring about the kind of improvements that we want, we will appeal to people of 18 as much as we will appeal to people of Mr Gorrie's age.", "EditedTextHTML": "I know that Donald Gorrie takes a great interest in those things, and I suspect that he rather fancies himself as a representative of youth. It shows a confidence in that matter that I find implausible. I have never taken the view that young people had totally different interests from those of the rest of the population. Young people are interested in educational opportunity and—essentially—in job opportunity. Mr Gorrie might want to consider the impressive statistic that, since the Government came to power at Westminster, the new deal has halved the number of 18 to 24-year-olds claiming unemployment benefit.

It is the same with housing, the health service and a range of social services. If we get those matters right, and bring about the kind of improvements that we want, we will appeal to people of 18 as much as we will appeal to people of Mr Gorrie's age.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C704982", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26644, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 410.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26645, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Tax", "QuestionHeadingID": 26647, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 441.0, "DisplayOrder": 441.0, "ID": 26647, "ParentID": 26645 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 444.0, "ContributionID": 704982, "EditedText": "I thank the First Minister for his courtesy in answering the question and for the surprising brevity of his answer. If Mr Dewar does not intend to increase the tax burden during the lifetime of the Parliament, will he advise us which taxes he plans to reduce to compensate the residents of Scotland for the tolls, taxes and city entry charges that we will all have to bear as a result of the legislative programme announced yesterday?", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the First Minister for his courtesy in answering the question and for the surprising brevity of his answer. If Mr Dewar does not intend to increase the tax burden during the lifetime of the Parliament, will he advise us which taxes he plans to reduce to compensate the residents of Scotland for the tolls, taxes and city

entry charges that we will all have to bear as a result of the legislative programme announced yesterday?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1752E75P296C704988", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26644, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 410.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26645, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Children and Young People", "QuestionHeadingID": 26648, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 456.0, "DisplayOrder": 456.0, "ID": 26648, "ParentID": 26645 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jamieson, Cathy", "ID": 1752, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Cathy Jamieson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "3. Cathy Jamieson (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 457.0, "ContributionID": 704988, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what measures it proposes to ensure that the interests and views of children and young people are taken into account in future legislation. (S1O-17)", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what measures it proposes to ensure that the interests and views of children and young people are taken into account in future legislation. (S1O-17)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1752E75P296C704990", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26644, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 410.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26645, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Children and Young People", "QuestionHeadingID": 26648, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 456.0, "DisplayOrder": 456.0, "ID": 26648, "ParentID": 26645 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jamieson, Cathy", "ID": 1752, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Cathy Jamieson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Cathy Jamieson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 461.0, "ContributionID": 704990, "EditedText": "Thank you for that helpful answer. Is the minister aware of the recent case in south Ayrshire, in which a sheriff felt that the provisions of the Children (Scotland) Act 1995 did not give him powers to stop a convicted sex offender, on his release from prison, returning to live in close proximity to his young victim? If he is aware of that case, will he comment on how legislation could be improved to ensure that children in such cases are afforded the protection that they need, to allow them to live safely and without fear in their homes and communities?", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you for that helpful answer. Is the minister aware of the recent case in south Ayrshire, in which a sheriff felt that the provisions of the Children (Scotland) Act 1995 did not give him powers to stop a convicted sex offender, on his release from prison, returning to live in close proximity to his young victim? If he is aware of that case, will he comment on how legislation could be improved to ensure that children in such cases are afforded the protection that they need, to allow them to live safely and without fear in their homes and communities?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1906E278P355C704992", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26644, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 410.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26645, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Children and Young People", "QuestionHeadingID": 26648, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 456.0, "DisplayOrder": 456.0, "ID": 26648, "ParentID": 26645 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Welsh, Andrew", "ID": 1906, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Angus" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Welsh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Andrew Welsh (Angus) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 465.0, "ContributionID": 704992, "EditedText": "Services and legislation will be affected by concordats. When will the Executive make those concordats available to this Parliament, so that they can be properly and publicly scrutinised?", "EditedTextHTML": "Services and legislation will be affected by concordats. When will the Executive make those concordats available to this Parliament, so that they can be properly and publicly scrutinised?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C704998", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 479.0, "ContributionID": 704998, "EditedText": "I believe that what we are proposing today is the most effective and immediate way of carrying forward the issue of tuition fees—and that of student poverty, which we also debated during the campaign. Let me make it clear: we remain committed to the abolition of tuition fees for all Scottish students at UK universities. That is what our manifesto said. We will have confidence in putting that case to the committee of inquiry.", "EditedTextHTML": "I believe that what we are proposing today is the most effective and immediate way of carrying forward the issue of tuition fees—and that of student poverty, which we also debated during the campaign.

Let me make it clear: we remain committed to the abolition of tuition fees for all Scottish students at UK universities. That is what our manifesto said. We will have confidence in putting that case to the committee of inquiry.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2038E191P344C705020", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Smith, Iain", "ID": 2038, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Iain Smith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Parliament (Iain Smith): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 525.0, "ContributionID": 705020, "EditedText": "Mr Monteith keeps referring to his party's commitment to the principle of free higher education. I wonder whether he recognises this quotation of a certain Mr Stephen Dorrell: \"The student goes through higher education and receives enhanced earning potential as a result and so should be expected to contribute towards the cost of that education\"— Official Report, House of Commons, 16 March 1998; Vol 308, c 976. Does that sound like the principle of free higher education?", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Monteith keeps referring to his party's commitment to the principle of free higher education. I wonder whether he recognises this quotation of a certain Mr Stephen Dorrell:

\"The student goes through higher education and receives enhanced earning potential as a result and so should be expected to contribute towards the cost of that education\"— [Official Report, House of Commons, 16 March 1998; Vol 308, c 976.]

Does that sound like the principle of free higher education?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1873E89P171C705024", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jackson, Dr Sylvia", "ID": 1873, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Stirling" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sylvia Jackson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Jackson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 534.0, "ContributionID": 705024, "EditedText": "If Mr Lochhead will allow me to finish, I am just coming on to that point.", "EditedTextHTML": "If Mr Lochhead will allow me to finish, I am just coming on to that point.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C705027", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 540.0, "ContributionID": 705027, "EditedText": "I must ask you to wind up now.", "EditedTextHTML": "I must ask you to wind up now.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1906E278P355C705029", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Welsh, Andrew", "ID": 1906, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Angus" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Welsh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Andrew Welsh (Angus) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 545.0, "ContributionID": 705029, "EditedText": "I agree that we must maintain the world-class reputation of our higher education institutions and universities, but that should be funded responsibly by central Government from general taxation and not at the expense of and by placing extra debt on individual students and their families. That is what the Westminster Government has done and it is entirely the wrong way to go about it. The tradition in Scottish education is of a system that is open to all and which allows each individual to develop to the fullest of their abilities, irrespective of economic, social or other circumstances. That traditional view has served Scotland well over the centuries and we abandon it at our peril.In a rapidly changing information age, Scotland needs to maximise the intellectual skills and potential of all its people if it is to survive and prosper in the 21st century. Scotland's education system has fundamental strengths that are well suited to such a rapidly changing future if—and only if—we build on them and provide an education service not only for Scotland, but for the world. The greater the financial or other barriers placed before our people, the greater our failure as legislators will be. It is to the shame of the Westminster Government that it has imposed tuition fees on the Scottish higher education system at a time when other countries, such as Ireland, have abolished tuition fees to encourage expansion of and access to education for their citizens. It is all the more ironic, as the Westminster Cabinet ministers who abolished student grants and imposed tuition fees and student loans were the people who benefited from the grants system. I am thoroughly ashamed that we have now imposed on a generation debt burdens and barriers that were not in place when many of us went to university. Today's decision on tuition fees has important consequences for the Scottish economy. The McNicoll report published by the Committee of Scottish Higher Education Principals two years ago identified that students from the rest of the United Kingdom contribute more than £110 million annually to our higher education system. In addition, each year they contribute more than £100 million in off-campus expenditure on Scottish goods and services. Therefore, any fall in applications to Scottish higher education establishments from students from other parts of the United Kingdom will have a considerable impact on the wider Scottish economy, as well as striking at the heart of our traditional system of four-year honours degrees and endangering the breadth of courses on offer to Scottish students at our universities. It is patently unfair that English, Welsh and Northern Irish applicants to Scottish universities are expected to pay up to £1,000 more than Scottish or European Union students from the same background for exactly the same course. That means that a student at a Scottish university, from St Ives or St Albans, will have to pay £1,000 more than a student from St Etienne or St Andrews. Such discrimination against English, Welsh and Northern Irish students has to go—and now. Tuition fees simply add to the financial barriers imposed by the student loans system. Once in place, they will not stay at present levels.", "EditedTextHTML": "I agree that we must maintain the world-class reputation of our higher education institutions and universities, but that should be funded responsibly by central Government from general taxation and not at the expense of and by placing extra debt on individual students and their families. That is what the Westminster Government has done and it is entirely the wrong way to go about it.

The tradition in Scottish education is of a system that is open to all and which allows each individual to develop to the fullest of their abilities, irrespective of economic, social or other circumstances. That traditional view has served Scotland well over the centuries and we abandon

it at our peril.

In a rapidly changing information age, Scotland needs to maximise the intellectual skills and potential of all its people if it is to survive and prosper in the 21st century. Scotland's education system has fundamental strengths that are well suited to such a rapidly changing future if—and only if—we build on them and provide an education service not only for Scotland, but for the world.

The greater the financial or other barriers placed before our people, the greater our failure as legislators will be. It is to the shame of the Westminster Government that it has imposed tuition fees on the Scottish higher education system at a time when other countries, such as Ireland, have abolished tuition fees to encourage expansion of and access to education for their citizens. It is all the more ironic, as the Westminster Cabinet ministers who abolished student grants and imposed tuition fees and student loans were the people who benefited from the grants system. I am thoroughly ashamed that we have now imposed on a generation debt burdens and barriers that were not in place when many of us went to university.

Today's decision on tuition fees has important consequences for the Scottish economy. The McNicoll report published by the Committee of Scottish Higher Education Principals two years ago identified that students from the rest of the United Kingdom contribute more than £110 million annually to our higher education system. In addition, each year they contribute more than £100 million in off-campus expenditure on Scottish goods and services. Therefore, any fall in applications to Scottish higher education establishments from students from other parts of the United Kingdom will have a considerable impact on the wider Scottish economy, as well as striking at the heart of our traditional system of four-year honours degrees and endangering the breadth of courses on offer to Scottish students at our universities.

It is patently unfair that English, Welsh and Northern Irish applicants to Scottish universities are expected to pay up to £1,000 more than Scottish or European Union students from the same background for exactly the same course. That means that a student at a Scottish university, from St Ives or St Albans, will have to pay £1,000 more than a student from St Etienne or St Andrews. Such discrimination against English, Welsh and Northern Irish students has to go—and now.

Tuition fees simply add to the financial barriers imposed by the student loans system. Once in place, they will not stay at present levels.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1906E278P355C705033", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Welsh, Andrew", "ID": 1906, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Angus" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Welsh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Welsh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 553.0, "ContributionID": 705033, "EditedText": "I want to point out that this is a moving feast. Once tuition fees are established, they will not stand still. When the Australian Government introduced tuition fees, students paid an average of only 23 per cent of the total fee. That figure has now risen to 45 per cent. Top-up fees were also ruled out, but will now be permitted in Australia. Now that the door has been opened on tuition fees, all that is possible. The reassurances that the United Kingdom Government has given to students here are similar to those that were given to Australian students.", "EditedTextHTML": "I want to point out that this is a moving feast. Once tuition fees are established, they will not stand still. When the Australian Government introduced tuition fees, students paid an average of only 23 per cent of the total fee. That figure has now risen to 45 per cent. Top-up fees were also ruled out, but will now be permitted in Australia. Now that the door has been opened on tuition fees, all that is possible.

The reassurances that the United Kingdom Government has given to students here are similar to those that were given to Australian students.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2140E187P335C705042", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Rumbles, Mike", "ID": 2140, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Rumbles", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Rumbles: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 573.0, "ContributionID": 705042, "EditedText": "No, Mr Gallie. I am finishing because many members want to contribute to the debate. I will not dominate even four minutes. I will finish by warning the coalition Government. I have heard mention of abolishing tuition fees in 2001-02. That is not on. It is my clear understanding, and I was delighted to hear Jim Wallace confirm it today, that the committee of inquiry will report to this Parliament by the end of this year—that is practical politics. We will have an opportunity to vote on the issue in the new year, and we will abolish fees for the next academic year at the first practical opportunity.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, Mr Gallie. I am finishing because many members want to contribute to the debate. I will not dominate even four minutes.

I will finish by warning the coalition Government. I have heard mention of abolishing tuition fees in 2001-02. That is not on. It is my clear understanding, and I was delighted to hear Jim

Wallace confirm it today, that the committee of inquiry will report to this Parliament by the end of this year—that is practical politics. We will have an opportunity to vote on the issue in the new year, and we will abolish fees for the next academic year at the first practical opportunity.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C705052", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 595.0, "ContributionID": 705052, "EditedText": "Could you begin to wind up, please.", "EditedTextHTML": "Could you begin to wind up, please.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C705056", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 604.0, "ContributionID": 705056, "EditedText": "On a point of order. There have been many good contributions to this debate. Pauline McNeill's was one—she participated in a debating way and allowed interventions and so lost time. Perhaps the Deputy Presiding Officer would consider extending the debate, given the number of people who want to speak and that the shortness of speeches is spoiling the debate.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. There have been many good contributions to this debate. Pauline McNeill's was one—she participated in a debating way and allowed interventions and so lost time. Perhaps the Deputy Presiding Officer would consider extending the debate, given the number of people who want to speak and that the shortness of speeches is spoiling the debate.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1962E35P56C705058", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mundell, David", "ID": 1962, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Mundell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David Mundell (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 609.0, "ContributionID": 705058, "EditedText": "Whether or not students should pay tuition fees in Scotland or elsewhere should be decided on principle and not on the allocation of budgets or taxation. That is not only my view but that of the Liberal Democrats. I was told so many times during the election campaign in Dumfries by no less a person than Mr Jim Wallace's brother, Neil. Mr Neil Wallace was no less uncompromising than his brother in his commitment to abolishing tuition fees. He saw the new politics of Scotland as the coming together of the Liberal Democrats with the SNP and the Tories and as leading to their abolition. I particularly remember an all-candidates debate in my old school, Lockerbie Academy, where Mr Neil Wallace expressed that prediction with passion, to the obvious pleasure of most of the audience and the equally obvious displeasure of the local Labour MP, who was present.", "EditedTextHTML": "Whether or not students should pay tuition fees in Scotland or elsewhere should be decided on principle and not on the allocation of budgets or taxation. That is not only my view but that of the Liberal Democrats. I was told so many times during the election campaign in Dumfries by no less a person than Mr Jim Wallace's brother, Neil. Mr Neil Wallace was no less uncompromising than his brother in his commitment to abolishing tuition fees. He saw the new politics of Scotland as the coming together of the Liberal Democrats with the SNP and the Tories and as leading to their abolition.

I particularly remember an all-candidates debate in my old school, Lockerbie Academy, where Mr Neil Wallace expressed that prediction with passion, to the obvious pleasure of most of the audience and the equally obvious displeasure of the local Labour MP, who was present.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1962E35P56C705064", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mundell, David", "ID": 1962, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Mundell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David Mundell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 621.0, "ContributionID": 705064, "EditedText": "I shall continue, as we have heard Mr Rumbles's quote.", "EditedTextHTML": "I shall continue, as we have heard Mr Rumbles's quote.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2140E187P335C705065", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Rumbles, Mike", "ID": 2140, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Rumbles", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Rumbles: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 623.0, "ContributionID": 705065, "EditedText": "I said that here in this chamber earlier.", "EditedTextHTML": "I said that here in this chamber earlier.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1986E53P206C705072", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeil, Duncan", "ID": 1986, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Greenock and Inverclyde" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan McNeil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Duncan McNeil (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 638.0, "ContributionID": 705072, "EditedText": "There has been a lot of discussion about the university aspect of the debate. I have not been to a university, and would like to remind people of the importance of further education colleges, which provide around 50,000 student places in Scotland. James Watt College, in my constituency, provides 1,400 of those places. As members will know, further education colleges are an important gateway to second- chance and lifelong learning. As someone who benefited from that second chance, I can testify that it was never given free. People who went to night school paid to go there to get themselves out of the shipyards. People who went on plumbing, welding, car maintenance and other courses paid or got their employers to pay. Principles may be the experience of some members, but they are not the experience of many people I know, nor are they my own experience.", "EditedTextHTML": "There has been a lot of discussion about the university aspect of the debate. I have not been to a university, and would like to remind people of the importance of further education colleges, which provide around 50,000 student places in Scotland. James Watt College, in my constituency, provides 1,400 of those places.

As members will know, further education colleges are an important gateway to second- chance and lifelong learning. As someone who benefited from that second chance, I can testify that it was never given free. People who went to night school paid to go there to get themselves out of the shipyards. People who went on plumbing, welding, car maintenance and other courses paid or got their employers to pay. Principles may be the experience of some members, but they are not the experience of many people I know, nor are they my own experience.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5141019+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1986E53P206C705076", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeil, Duncan", "ID": 1986, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Greenock and Inverclyde" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan McNeil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McNeil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 646.0, "ContributionID": 705076, "EditedText": "Wait a minute, Tommy, I am in full flow here. Ninety-six per cent of students at that college received either full or partial support for their fees.", "EditedTextHTML": "Wait a minute, Tommy, I am in full flow here. Ninety-six per cent of students at that college received either full or partial support for their fees.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5297253+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C705083", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning (Henry McLeish): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 662.0, "ContributionID": 705083, "EditedText": "I would like to build some harmony and unity out of what seems to have been a fairly disparate debate. We have election campaigns and politics is about seeing through commitments. It is also about looking at issues in their wider context. The remarkable thing about Jim Wallace's motion is that it does not ask any party to concede its position. The Liberal Democrats forcibly pointed out that they are sticking with the issue—they want abolition. A very important point of practical politics was also raised by a Liberal member—there must be a practical way of making decisions. The motion asks that no one shifts position, and there might be some agreement on that. If every party—every member—in this chamber is confident of the wisdom of their position, why not put it to the examination of a review committee? That committee's composition, terms of reference and time scale will be agreed by this Parliament. Without shifting positions, we can then look at the issue in context.", "EditedTextHTML": "I would like to build some harmony and unity out of what seems to have been a fairly disparate debate. We have election campaigns and politics is about seeing through commitments. It is also about looking at issues in their wider context.

The remarkable thing about Jim Wallace's motion is that it does not ask any party to concede its position. The Liberal Democrats forcibly pointed out that they are sticking with the issue—they want abolition. A very important point of practical politics was also raised by a Liberal member—there must

be a practical way of making decisions. The motion asks that no one shifts position, and there might be some agreement on that.

If every party—every member—in this chamber is confident of the wisdom of their position, why not put it to the examination of a review committee? That committee's composition, terms of reference and time scale will be agreed by this Parliament. Without shifting positions, we can then look at the issue in context.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5297253+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C705087", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 670.0, "ContributionID": 705087, "EditedText": "The Association of Scottish Colleges says: \"The proposal to abolish contributions to tuition fees for full-time undergraduates needs careful consideration in a wider context.\" Professor John Arbuthnott, in a letter to Donald Dewar, says: \"It is in the national interest to institute a comprehensive review immediately . . . to establish a coherent long-term framework for student support and the provision of higher education in Scotland.\" In a letter to Alex Salmond, Dr Ian Graham-Bryce of the Committee of Scottish Higher Education Principals says: \"Without prejudice . . . to their commitment to the solution they believe to be right, we hope all parties will support our call for a swift and independent review of student support in general.\" Jane Denholm, deputy secretary of COSHEP, says: \"This should be the time for parties to work from their shared principles to achieve the grown-up, joined-up and evidence based policy solutions which Scottish students need and deserve\" and which taxpayers should expect from us.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Association of Scottish Colleges says:

\"The proposal to abolish contributions to tuition fees for full-time undergraduates needs careful consideration in a wider context.\"

Professor John Arbuthnott, in a letter to Donald Dewar, says:

\"It is in the national interest to institute a comprehensive review immediately . . . to establish a coherent long-term framework for student support and the provision of higher education in Scotland.\"

In a letter to Alex Salmond, Dr Ian Graham-Bryce of the Committee of Scottish Higher Education Principals says:

\"Without prejudice . . . to their commitment to the solution they believe to be right, we hope all parties will support our call for a swift and independent review of student support in general.\"

Jane Denholm, deputy secretary of COSHEP, says:

\"This should be the time for parties to work from their shared principles to achieve the grown-up, joined-up and evidence based policy solutions which Scottish students need and deserve\" and which taxpayers should expect from us.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5297253+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C705089", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 674.0, "ContributionID": 705089, "EditedText": "No, I am not giving way at the moment. I want to give way to Tommy Sheridan in a second. Robert Kay, chair of the Association of Scottish Colleges, says: \"The Scottish Parliament should take a broad and balanced view, not just of tuition fees but all aspects of student support and all types of student.\" Finally, David Jago, past president of the Association of University Teachers, says: \"Seeking a quick fix on this issue would be a betrayal of Scotland's aspirations for a new politics in which everyone can have a say, not just party leaders meeting behind closed doors.\" The emphasis is that it would be arrogant for us simply to say, without looking at the consequences of the action, \"Let us take an issue. Let us spend £40 million to £60 million of taxpayers' money.\" Today, I am saying, \"Do not concede your position.\" Let us agree on that. Let us listen to the rest of Scotland, which wants to be involved in the debate. Are the SNP and the Tories going to say, \"No, we do not want to listen to COSHEP, the NUS or anyone else. We want to go our way without due consideration\"?", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I am not giving way at the moment. I want to give way to Tommy Sheridan in a second.

Robert Kay, chair of the Association of Scottish Colleges, says:

\"The Scottish Parliament should take a broad and balanced view, not just of tuition fees but all aspects of student support and all types of student.\"

Finally, David Jago, past president of the Association of University Teachers, says:

\"Seeking a quick fix on this issue would be a betrayal of Scotland's aspirations for a new politics in which everyone can have a say, not just party leaders meeting behind closed doors.\"

The emphasis is that it would be arrogant for us simply to say, without looking at the consequences of the action, \"Let us take an issue. Let us spend £40 million to £60 million of taxpayers' money.\" Today, I am saying, \"Do not concede your position.\" Let us agree on that. Let us listen to the rest of Scotland, which wants to be involved in the debate. Are the SNP and the Tories going to say, \"No, we do not want to listen to COSHEP, the NUS or anyone else. We want to go our way without due consideration\"?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5297253+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C705093", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 682.0, "ContributionID": 705093, "EditedText": "No, I want to press on. Pauline McNeill made a point in which, historically, Scotland has had a big interest. Remember the Robbins committee of the 1960s? We wanted access to be widened and we have made tremendous progress. Pauline McNeill's point concerned skilled manual workers, partly skilled workers and unskilled workers—socio-economic groups 3, 4 and 5. Socio-economic group 3—manual workers— represents 21 per cent of the population but only 17 per cent of people in higher and further education. Those figures are not too bad, but the partly skilled group represents 16 per cent of the population but only 9 per cent of people in higher and further education. The unskilled group represents 6 per cent of the population but only 2 per cent of those in higher and further education. If we want to use the cloak of poverty and social injustice, let us remember those figures. The mythical days of free higher education probably never existed in post-war Britain. They certainly did not exist in pre-war Britain. I would rather take a principled position on the review committee and say that Scotland believes in social justice and in widening access—Scotland wants to examine how the abolition of tuition fees would impact on the objectives that we all share. It is a great aspiration to be able to say that not only can we stick to our position on tuition fees, but—for the better interest of higher and further education—we can look at the big picture, which I have tried, briefly, to pinpoint. There has been a lot of to-ing and fro-ing in the chamber about betrayals and principles. I like to think that we all have principles. Are there any charlatans here who do not believe in what they are doing? I do not think so. We must try to keep a moderate tone. If we are clear, if we feel principled and we have knowledge of a particular matter, we should put that matter to an expert group to examine. I emphasise a point that Jim Wallace made: this is not a fix and there are no constraints on the committee. I agree with Dennis Canavan: if the committee wants to consider maintenance grants, we should let it. The chamber has serious difficulties and differences on a point of principle. That is fine, but we should not disguise the fact that, if we have a review committee, we can explore every avenue. The time for decision making will be when the report is presented to the chamber and to the Executive. If we agree to the motion, I will speak to all the Opposition parties over the next two or three days. We must have an inquiry that we can be proud of and that the chamber can support. We must ensure that widening access is the kernel of our approach to higher and further education in Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I want to press on. Pauline McNeill made a point in which, historically, Scotland has had a big interest. Remember the Robbins committee of the 1960s? We wanted access to be widened and we have made tremendous progress. Pauline McNeill's point concerned skilled manual workers, partly skilled workers and unskilled workers—socio-economic groups 3, 4 and 5.

Socio-economic group 3—manual workers— represents 21 per cent of the population but only 17 per cent of people in higher and further education. Those figures are not too bad, but the partly skilled group represents 16 per cent of the population but only 9 per cent of people in higher and further education. The unskilled group represents 6 per cent of the population but only 2 per cent of those in higher and further education. If we want to use the cloak of poverty and social injustice, let us remember those figures.

The mythical days of free higher education probably never existed in post-war Britain. They certainly did not exist in pre-war Britain. I would rather take a principled position on the review committee and say that Scotland believes in social justice and in widening access—Scotland wants to examine how the abolition of tuition fees would impact on the objectives that we all share. It is a great aspiration to be able to say that not only can we stick to our position on tuition fees, but—for the better interest of higher and further education—we can look at the big picture, which I have tried, briefly, to pinpoint.

There has been a lot of to-ing and fro-ing in the chamber about betrayals and principles. I like to think that we all have principles. Are there any charlatans here who do not believe in what they are doing? I do not think so. We must try to keep a moderate tone.

If we are clear, if we feel principled and we have knowledge of a particular matter, we should put that matter to an expert group to examine. I emphasise a point that Jim Wallace made: this is not a fix and there are no constraints on the committee. I agree with Dennis Canavan: if the committee wants to consider maintenance grants, we should let it.

The chamber has serious difficulties and differences on a point of principle. That is fine, but we should not disguise the fact that, if we have a review committee, we can explore every avenue. The time for decision making will be when the report is presented to the chamber and to the Executive. If we agree to the motion, I will speak to all the Opposition parties over the next two or three days. We must have an inquiry that we can be proud of and that the chamber can support. We must ensure that widening access is the kernel of our approach to higher and further education in

Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5297253+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C705094", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 684.0, "ContributionID": 705094, "EditedText": "The division on this matter will be taken in decision time at 5 pm.", "EditedTextHTML": "The division on this matter will be taken in decision time at 5 pm.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5297253+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C705095", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Committees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26650, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 686.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 686.0, "ID": 26650, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 687.0, "ContributionID": 705095, "EditedText": "The final item of business for today is the motion from the Parliamentary Bureau on the establishment of parliamentary committees. I remind members that the motion has to be taken without debate, so I ask the mover of the motion and the movers of the amendments to take a couple of minutes each—", "EditedTextHTML": "The final item of business for today is the motion from the Parliamentary Bureau on the establishment of parliamentary committees. I remind members that the motion has to be taken without debate, so I ask the mover of the motion and the movers of the amendments to take a couple of minutes each—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5297253+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C705097", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Committees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26650, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 686.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 686.0, "ID": 26650, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 691.0, "ContributionID": 705097, "EditedText": "I am very sorry about that. I repeat: this motion is taken without debate and therefore the movers of the motion—", "EditedTextHTML": "I am very sorry about that. I repeat: this motion is taken without debate and therefore the movers of the motion—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5297253+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C705099", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Committees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26650, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 686.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 686.0, "ID": 26650, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 695.0, "ContributionID": 705099, "EditedText": "I am willing to shout if necessary. I said that Parliament had already agreed that the motion would be passed without debate and therefore the mover and the movers of amendments must be extremely brief.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am willing to shout if necessary. I said that Parliament had already agreed that the motion would be passed without debate and therefore the mover and the movers of amendments must be extremely brief.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5297253+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2228E151P202C705108", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Committees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26650, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 686.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 686.0, "ID": 26650, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McCabe, Tom", "ID": 2228, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Tom McCabe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McCabe: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 715.0, "ContributionID": 705108, "EditedText": "To clarify Tommy Sheridan's point, I inform the chamber that there are five members of the Labour party who sit on only one committee.", "EditedTextHTML": "To clarify Tommy Sheridan's point, I inform the chamber that there are five members of the Labour party who sit on only one committee.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5297253+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2228E151P202C705106", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Committees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26650, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 686.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 686.0, "ID": 26650, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McCabe, Tom", "ID": 2228, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Tom McCabe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McCabe: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 711.0, "ContributionID": 705106, "EditedText": "I received a number of communications from Robin Harper: one indicated that he would like a place on the Equal Opportunities Committee; another told me that he would like to be considered for the European Committee; and a third informed me that he had an interest in the Transport and the Environment Committee. The point is that, under the rules of this Parliament, the three members to whom I have referred do not have representation on the Parliamentary Bureau. I believe that I referred to the fact that the other four parties took that into account in their sincere desire to involve those three parties in the workings of the Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "I received a number of communications from Robin Harper: one indicated that he would like a place on the Equal Opportunities Committee; another told me that he would like to be considered for the European Committee; and a third informed me that he had an interest in the Transport and the Environment Committee.

The point is that, under the rules of this Parliament, the three members to whom I have referred do not have representation on the Parliamentary Bureau. I believe that I referred to the fact that the other four parties took that into account in their sincere desire to involve those three parties in the workings of the Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5297253+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2188E70P92C705110", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Committees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26650, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 686.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 686.0, "ID": 26650, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harper, Robin", "ID": 2188, "PartyName": "Scottish Green Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Green", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robin Harper", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robin Harper (Lothians) (Green): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 721.0, "ContributionID": 705110, "EditedText": "I have been put in a rather embarrassing position. I must confess that I have not read the newspaper article that Mr McCabe alluded to in case it embarrassed me. However, I am delighted to move my amendment.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have been put in a rather embarrassing position. I must confess that I have not read the newspaper article that Mr McCabe alluded to in case it embarrassed me. However, I am delighted to move my amendment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5297253+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2188E70P92C705112", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Committees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26650, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 686.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 686.0, "ID": 26650, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harper, Robin", "ID": 2188, "PartyName": "Scottish Green Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Green", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robin Harper", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robin Harper: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 725.0, "ContributionID": 705112, "EditedText": "I was very pleased when Mike came and told me that the Parliamentary Bureau was making those places available. However, there is an important point to be made about the way in which it had to be done: by people coming along and negotiating. It is important for the future of the Parliament and for the future of other people from small parties—after the next election I hope to have a few more of my colleagues with me— that we revisit the size of committees and the way in which their membership is chosen. That is a calm plea for us to reconsider those issues, when the dust has settled, particularly for the benefit of Tommy Sheridan and Dennis Canavan. I move amendment S1M-53.5.", "EditedTextHTML": "I was very pleased when Mike came and told me that the Parliamentary Bureau was making those places available. However, there is an important point to be made about the way in which it had to be done: by people coming along and negotiating. It is important for the future of the Parliament and for the future of other people from small parties—after the next election I hope to have a few more of my colleagues with me— that we revisit the size of committees and the way in which their membership is chosen. That is a calm plea for us to reconsider those issues, when the dust has settled, particularly for the benefit of Tommy Sheridan and Dennis Canavan.

I move amendment S1M-53.5.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5297253+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C705119", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26651, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 727.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 727.0, "ID": 26651, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 739.0, "ContributionID": 705119, "EditedText": "The next question is, that motion S1M-52, in the name of Donald Dewar, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "The next question is, that motion S1M-52, in the name of Donald Dewar, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5297253+00:00" }, { "ID": "C705122", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26651, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 727.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 727.0, "ID": 26651, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 745.0, "ContributionID": 705122, "EditedText": "FOR Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)Mackay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)(LD)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)AGAINST Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Crawford, Bruce JP (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)ABSTENTIONS Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Mackay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)
(LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)

AGAINST

Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Crawford, Bruce JP (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)

ABSTENTIONS

Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5297253+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C705123", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26651, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 727.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 727.0, "ID": 26651, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 746.0, "ContributionID": 705123, "EditedText": "The result of the division is as follows: For 66, Against 57, Abstentions 2.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result of the division is as follows: For 66, Against 57, Abstentions 2.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5297253+00:00" }, { "ID": "C705124", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26651, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 727.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 727.0, "ID": 26651, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 748.0, "ContributionID": 705124, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5297253+00:00" }, { "ID": "C705125", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26651, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 727.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 727.0, "ID": 26651, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 749.0, "ContributionID": 705125, "EditedText": "That the Parliament endorses the decision to provide its permanent home on the Holyrood site and authorises the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body to take forward the project in accordance with the plans developed by the EMBT/RMJM design team and within the time scale and cost estimates described in the Presiding Officer's note to members of 9 June 1999.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament endorses the decision to provide its permanent home on the Holyrood site and authorises the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body to take forward the project in accordance with the plans developed by the EMBT/RMJM design team and within the time scale and cost estimates described in the Presiding Officer's note to members of 9 June 1999.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5297253+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C705127", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26651, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 727.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 727.0, "ID": 26651, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 752.0, "ContributionID": 705127, "EditedText": "On a point of order. May I ask the Presiding Officer and chairman of the corporate body whether the corporate body will have access to commercially confidential material relating to the Holyrood project?", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. May I ask the Presiding Officer and chairman of the corporate body whether the corporate body will have access to commercially confidential material relating to the Holyrood project?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5297253+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C705129", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26651, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 727.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 727.0, "ID": 26651, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 756.0, "ContributionID": 705129, "EditedText": "I beg your pardon, Presiding Officer. Will the corporate body, as the client, have access to commercially confidential material, and will it report that to the Parliament?", "EditedTextHTML": "I beg your pardon, Presiding Officer. Will the corporate body, as the client, have access to commercially confidential material, and will it report that to the Parliament?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5297253+00:00" }, { "ID": "C705131", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26651, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 727.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 727.0, "ID": 26651, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 760.0, "ContributionID": 705131, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5297253+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C705145", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26651, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 727.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 727.0, "ID": 26651, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 783.0, "ContributionID": 705145, "EditedText": "There will be a division. Members should vote yes to agree with the amendment, no to disagree with the amendment and abstain to record an abstention.", "EditedTextHTML": "There will be a division. Members should vote yes to agree with the amendment, no to disagree with the amendment and abstain to record an abstention.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5297253+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C705136", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26651, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 727.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 727.0, "ID": 26651, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 768.0, "ContributionID": 705136, "EditedText": "The question is, that motion S1M-2, in the name of Jim Wallace, be agreed to. Are we agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "The question is, that motion S1M-2, in the name of Jim Wallace, be agreed to. Are we agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5297253+00:00" }, { "ID": "C705139", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26651, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 727.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 727.0, "ID": 26651, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 774.0, "ContributionID": 705139, "EditedText": "FOR Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)Mackay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)AGAINST Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)Crawford, Bruce JP (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)ABSTENTIONS Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)(LD)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Mackay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)

AGAINST

Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Crawford, Bruce JP (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)

ABSTENTIONS

Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)
(LD)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5297253+00:00" }, { "ID": "C705142", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26651, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 727.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 727.0, "ID": 26651, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 778.0, "ContributionID": 705142, "EditedText": "That the Parliament recognises the widespread opposition to tuition fees, the growing importance of lifelong learning to Scotland's society and economy and the wide range of circumstances of those engaged in lifelong learning; and calls upon the Scottish Executive once established to appoint urgently a committee of inquiry on the issue of tuition fees and financial support for those participating, part-time or full-time, in further and higher education; the terms of reference, time scale and membership of that committee to be approved by and its report laid before the Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament recognises the widespread opposition to tuition fees, the growing importance of lifelong learning to Scotland's society and economy and the wide range of circumstances of those engaged in lifelong learning; and calls upon the Scottish Executive once established to appoint urgently a committee of inquiry on the issue of tuition fees and financial support for those participating, part-time or full-time, in further and higher education; the terms of reference, time scale and membership of that committee to be approved by and its report laid before the Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5297253+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C705143", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26651, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 727.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 727.0, "ID": 26651, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 779.0, "ContributionID": 705143, "EditedText": "The question is, that amendment S1M-53.1, in the name of Tommy Sheridan, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "The question is, that amendment S1M-53.1, in the name of Tommy Sheridan, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5297253+00:00" }, { "ID": "C705146", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26651, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 727.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 727.0, "ID": 26651, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 785.0, "ContributionID": 705146, "EditedText": "FOR Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West) Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green) Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP) AGAINST Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Crawford, Bruce JP (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)Mackay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)(LD)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)

AGAINST

Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Crawford, Bruce JP (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Mackay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)
(LD)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5297253+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C705147", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26651, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 727.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 727.0, "ID": 26651, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ms Patricia Ferguson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 786.0, "ContributionID": 705147, "EditedText": "The result of the division is as follows: For 3, Against 121, Abstentions 0.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result of the division is as follows: For 3, Against 121, Abstentions 0.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5297253+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C705149", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26651, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 727.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 727.0, "ID": 26651, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 789.0, "ContributionID": 705149, "EditedText": "The question is, that amendment S1M-53.2, in the name of Tommy Sheridan, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "The question is, that amendment S1M-53.2, in the name of Tommy Sheridan, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5297253+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C705155", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26651, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 727.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 727.0, "ID": 26651, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 799.0, "ContributionID": 705155, "EditedText": "The question is, that amendment S1M-53.3, in the name of Dennis Canavan, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "The question is, that amendment S1M-53.3, in the name of Dennis Canavan, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5297253+00:00" }, { "ID": "C705162", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26651, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 727.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 727.0, "ID": 26651, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 811.0, "ContributionID": 705162, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5297253+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C705163", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26651, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 727.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 727.0, "ID": 26651, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 813.0, "ContributionID": 705163, "EditedText": "There will be a division. Members should vote yes to agree with the amendment, no to disagree with the amendment and abstain to record an abstention.", "EditedTextHTML": "There will be a division. Members should vote yes to agree with the amendment, no to disagree with the amendment and abstain to record an abstention.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5297253+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C705169", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26651, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 727.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 727.0, "ID": 26651, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 822.0, "ContributionID": 705169, "EditedText": "The question is that motion—", "EditedTextHTML": "The question is that motion—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5453475+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C705171", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26651, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 727.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 727.0, "ID": 26651, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 826.0, "ContributionID": 705171, "EditedText": "The motion is in order, Mr Canavan. The committees will have 13 members. There are vacancies at the moment. The question is, that motion S1M-53, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, as amended, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "The motion is in order, Mr Canavan. The committees will have 13 members. There are vacancies at the moment.

The question is, that motion S1M-53, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, as amended, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5453475+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C705175", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26651, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 727.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 727.0, "ID": 26651, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 833.0, "ContributionID": 705175, "EditedText": "The result of the vote is: For 119, Against 2, Abstentions 2.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result of the vote is: For 119, Against 2, Abstentions 2.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5453475+00:00" }, { "ID": "C705178", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26651, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 727.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 727.0, "ID": 26651, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 837.0, "ContributionID": 705178, "EditedText": "European: Bruce Crawford, Winnie Ewing, Hugh Henry, Sylvia Jackson, Cathy Jamieson, Margo MacDonald, Maureen Macmillan, David Mundell, Irene Oldfather, Tavish Scott, Ben Wallace and Allan Wilson be members of the European Committee, the Convener to be appointed from the Labour Party;", "EditedTextHTML": "European: Bruce Crawford, Winnie Ewing, Hugh Henry, Sylvia Jackson, Cathy Jamieson, Margo MacDonald, Maureen Macmillan, David Mundell, Irene Oldfather, Tavish Scott, Ben Wallace and Allan Wilson be members of the European Committee, the Convener to be appointed from the Labour Party;

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5453475+00:00" }, { "ID": "C705179", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26651, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 727.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 727.0, "ID": 26651, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 838.0, "ContributionID": 705179, "EditedText": "Equal Opportunities: Malcolm Chisholm, Johann Lamont, Marilyn Livingstone, Jamie McGrigor, Irene McGugan, Kate MacLean, Michael McMahon, Michael Matheson, John Munro, Nora Radcliffe, Shona Robison and Elaine Smith be members of the Equal Opportunities Committee, the Convener to be appointed from the Labour Party;", "EditedTextHTML": "Equal Opportunities: Malcolm Chisholm, Johann Lamont, Marilyn Livingstone, Jamie McGrigor, Irene McGugan, Kate MacLean, Michael McMahon, Michael Matheson, John Munro, Nora Radcliffe, Shona Robison and Elaine Smith be members of the Equal Opportunities Committee, the Convener to be appointed from the Labour Party;

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5453475+00:00" }, { "ID": "C705180", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26651, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 727.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 727.0, "ID": 26651, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 839.0, "ContributionID": 705180, "EditedText": "Finance: David Davidson, Rhoda Grant, Adam Ingram, George Lyon, Kenneth Macintosh, Keith Raffan, Richard Simpson, John Swinney, Elaine Thomson, Mike Watson and Andrew Wilson be members of the Finance Committee, the Convener to be appointed from the Labour Party;", "EditedTextHTML": "Finance: David Davidson, Rhoda Grant, Adam Ingram, George Lyon, Kenneth Macintosh, Keith Raffan, Richard Simpson, John Swinney, Elaine Thomson, Mike Watson and Andrew Wilson be members of the Finance Committee, the Convener to be appointed from the Labour Party;

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5453475+00:00" }, { "ID": "C705184", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26651, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 727.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 727.0, "ID": 26651, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 843.0, "ContributionID": 705184, "EditedText": "Public Petitions: Helen Eadie, Phil Gallie, Christine Grahame, John McAllion, Pauline McNeill, Margaret Smith and Sandra White be members of the Public Petitions Committee, the Convener to be appointed from the Labour Party;", "EditedTextHTML": "Public Petitions: Helen Eadie, Phil Gallie, Christine Grahame, John McAllion, Pauline McNeill, Margaret Smith and Sandra White be members of the Public Petitions Committee, the Convener to be appointed from the Labour Party;

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5453475+00:00" }, { "ID": "C705191", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26651, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 727.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 727.0, "ID": 26651, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 850.0, "ContributionID": 705191, "EditedText": "Transport and the Environment: Helen Eadie, Linda Fabiani, Janis Hughes, Cathy Jamieson, Andy Kerr, Kenny MacAskill, Des McNulty, Nora Radcliffe, Tavish Scott and Murray Tosh be members of the Transport and the Environment Committee, the Convener to be appointed from the Labour Party;", "EditedTextHTML": "Transport and the Environment: Helen Eadie, Linda Fabiani, Janis Hughes, Cathy Jamieson, Andy Kerr, Kenny MacAskill, Des McNulty, Nora Radcliffe, Tavish Scott and Murray Tosh be members of the Transport and the Environment Committee, the Convener to be appointed from the Labour Party;

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5453475+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C705194", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26651, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 727.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 727.0, "ID": 26651, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 853.0, "ContributionID": 705194, "EditedText": "That concludes decision time for today.", "EditedTextHTML": "That concludes decision time for today.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C705008", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 500.0, "ContributionID": 705008, "EditedText": "Mr McLeish has made it clear in the press that the committee proposed by the Executive will have a wide remit, and that was confirmed by Mr Wallace in his presentation today. The committee will be able to investigate every possible solution to this problem; it will have no financial constraints other than identifying where the money is coming from; and it will be chaired by an independent person of substance.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr McLeish has made it clear in the press that the committee proposed by the Executive will have a wide remit, and that was confirmed by Mr Wallace in his presentation today. The committee will be able to investigate every possible solution to this problem; it will have no financial constraints other than identifying where the money is coming from; and it will be chaired by an independent person of substance.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:13:41.211281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C704842", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fergus Ewing rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 133.0, "ContributionID": 704842, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:00:18.3299743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1857E136P222C705049", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeill, Pauline", "ID": 1857, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Kelvin" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Pauline McNeill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Pauline McNeill: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 589.0, "ContributionID": 705049, "EditedText": "In just a minute. It is important to note that there has not been a review of the level of student maintenance in modern times. No body or Government department has considered what students need to survive on. Whether we support a grant or a loan system, we cannot continue to pluck figures from the air. For students to survive, the figures must be based on real costs. Mr Wallace mentioned particular concern over mature students.", "EditedTextHTML": "In just a minute. It is important to note that there has not been a review of the level of student maintenance in modern times. No body or Government department has considered what students need to survive on. Whether we support a grant or a loan system, we cannot continue to pluck figures from the air. For students to survive, the figures must be based on real costs. Mr Wallace mentioned particular concern over mature students.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:14:54.5772891+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C704826", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fergus Ewing (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 92.0, "ContributionID": 704826, "EditedText": "As the representative of the people of Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber, I would naturally prefer the Parliament to be situated in Inverness. However, I am prepared to concede that that will not be possible without adequate transport links to Heathrow and the rest of the world. I am sure that all members will join me in thanking the Church of Scotland for negotiating with the Scottish Office, which is also to be commended, to make this chamber available to the people of Scotland. Two sets of issues are becoming confused in this debate: issues relating to the choice of site, and issues relating to the building and, in particular, the chamber. I want to speak out in defence of this chamber, because it is an excellent forum. Last week my colleague Mary Scanlon arranged a visit by a group of people from Inverness. Almost to a person, they expressed their approval for this chamber, because of the sense of history, the ambience, the atmosphere, the tradition and the sense of occasion that inform and—perhaps—raise the quality of our contributions to debates. Three factors must be considered when we contemplate a move to another chamber: the needs of the press, the needs of the public and the needs of members. I understand that the press in this chamber can see virtually every member except, perhaps, one or two Conservative members; I make no comment as to whether that is an advantage or a disadvantage. I understand that they can see members' reactions and expressions during debates, and even members passing sweeties to one another. That is part of the democratic process. The arguments about the lack of facilities are unrealistically exaggerated. The First Minister was not here to accept Mrs McIntosh's kind offer of an umbrella to prevent him from becoming drookit the next time that it rains, but I am sure that, if pushed, we can have a whip-round among SNP members to arrange one—in the spirit of non-partisan co-operation. I have never seen the High Street covered with 6 in of snow; sadly, we have not seen 6 in of snow on Cairn Gorm, where, I hope, the Cairn Gorm funicular railway will shortly be situated. In its report on possible sites, Halcrow Fox and Associates Ltd said that of the four options, it favoured Calton hill. We know that the attitude of the First Minister was ABC—anywhere but Calton hill. He has disclaimed ownership of the phrase \"nationalist shibboleth\", and we now believe that the unwanted authorship of that phrase belongs to Brian Wilson, who is not here—I express no opinion as to whether that is an advantage or a disadvantage. I want to voice one thought that might be unwelcome to members of the Labour party who sit in this Parliament. I believe that any new Parliament building will hasten progress towards full independence for Scotland. Naturally, I welcome that. Perhaps, therefore, the intelligent Labour members—I am sure that they form the vast majority—will reflect that if we were to stay here, which is one of the options under Donald Gorrie's amendment, it might help slow down the separatist march, as Labour members would see it, towards independence. In conclusion, I wish to echo your words, Sir David, about this Parliament being a kitten, which we want, without any genetic modification, to see transformed into a proud Scottish lion, independent and free.", "EditedTextHTML": "As the representative of the people of Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber, I would naturally prefer the Parliament to be situated in Inverness. However, I am prepared to concede that that will not be possible without adequate transport links to Heathrow and the rest of the world.

I am sure that all members will join me in thanking the Church of Scotland for negotiating with the Scottish Office, which is also to be commended, to make this chamber available to the people of Scotland.

Two sets of issues are becoming confused in this debate: issues relating to the choice of site, and issues relating to the building and, in particular, the chamber. I want to speak out in defence of this chamber, because it is an excellent forum. Last week my colleague Mary Scanlon arranged a visit by a group of people from Inverness. Almost to a person, they expressed their approval for this chamber, because of the sense of history, the ambience, the atmosphere, the tradition and the sense of occasion that inform and—perhaps—raise the quality of our contributions to debates.

Three factors must be considered when we contemplate a move to another chamber: the needs of the press, the needs of the public and the needs of members. I understand that the press in this chamber can see virtually every member except, perhaps, one or two Conservative members; I make no comment as to whether that is an advantage or a disadvantage. I understand that they can see members' reactions and expressions during debates, and even members passing sweeties to one another. That is part of the democratic process.

The arguments about the lack of facilities are unrealistically exaggerated. The First Minister was not here to accept Mrs McIntosh's kind offer of an umbrella to prevent him from becoming drookit the next time that it rains, but I am sure that, if pushed, we can have a whip-round among SNP members to arrange one—in the spirit of non-partisan co-operation. I have never seen the High Street covered with 6 in of snow; sadly, we have not seen 6 in of snow on Cairn Gorm, where, I hope, the Cairn Gorm funicular railway will shortly be situated.

In its report on possible sites, Halcrow Fox and Associates Ltd said that of the four options, it favoured Calton hill. We know that the attitude of the First Minister was ABC—anywhere but Calton

hill. He has disclaimed ownership of the phrase \"nationalist shibboleth\", and we now believe that the unwanted authorship of that phrase belongs to Brian Wilson, who is not here—I express no opinion as to whether that is an advantage or a disadvantage.

I want to voice one thought that might be unwelcome to members of the Labour party who sit in this Parliament. I believe that any new Parliament building will hasten progress towards full independence for Scotland. Naturally, I welcome that. Perhaps, therefore, the intelligent Labour members—I am sure that they form the vast majority—will reflect that if we were to stay here, which is one of the options under Donald Gorrie's amendment, it might help slow down the separatist march, as Labour members would see it, towards independence.

In conclusion, I wish to echo your words, Sir David, about this Parliament being a kitten, which we want, without any genetic modification, to see transformed into a proud Scottish lion, independent and free.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:00:18.3299743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C704882", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fergus Ewing rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 221.0, "ContributionID": 704882, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:00:28.6213377+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C704899", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26624, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 248.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26625, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 251.0, "QuestionHeading": "Caledonian MacBrayne", "QuestionHeadingID": 26626, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 252.0, "DisplayOrder": 252.0, "ID": 26626, "ParentID": 26625 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment (Sarah Boyack): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 257.0, "ContributionID": 704899, "EditedText": "Our strategy is to ensure that CalMac has a forward capital investment programme in vessels and shore infrastructure that is both affordable and sufficient to secure the future of lifeline ferry services off the west coast of Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "Our strategy is to ensure that CalMac has a forward capital investment programme in vessels and shore infrastructure that is both affordable and sufficient to secure the future of lifeline ferry services off the west coast of Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:08.9050713+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C704901", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26624, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 248.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26625, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 251.0, "QuestionHeading": "Caledonian MacBrayne", "QuestionHeadingID": 26626, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 252.0, "DisplayOrder": 252.0, "ID": 26626, "ParentID": 26625 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 261.0, "ContributionID": 704901, "EditedText": "The Deloitte & Touche report was commissioned by the previous Conservative Administration. When the Labour Government came to power, it examined the recommendations in the report and requested that further work be carried out. I understand that that work has recently been received. The Scottish Executive intends shortly to make the reports available for consultation. I hope that all those with an interest will comment at that stage.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Deloitte & Touche report was commissioned by the previous Conservative Administration. When the Labour Government came to power, it examined the recommendations in the report and requested that further work be carried out. I understand that that work has recently been received. The Scottish Executive intends shortly to make the reports available for consultation. I hope that all those with an interest will comment at that stage.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:08.9050713+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2180E179P471C704829", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lochhead, Richard", "ID": 2180, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Lochhead", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Richard Lochhead (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 100.0, "ContributionID": 704829, "EditedText": "Does the member accept that many of us who will be voting for the amendment are not wholly opposed to the Holyrood site, subject to amendments, and are in favour of a new building?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the member accept that many of us who will be voting for the amendment are not wholly opposed to the Holyrood site, subject to amendments, and are in favour of a new building?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:20.9670782+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704787", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Thursday 17 June 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26621, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26621, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 2.0, "ContributionID": 704787, "EditedText": "THE PRESIDING OFFICER opened the meeting at 10:30", "EditedTextHTML": "[THE PRESIDING OFFICER opened the meeting at 10:30]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4672278+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C704789", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Thursday 17 June 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26621, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26621, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 5.0, "ContributionID": 704789, "EditedText": "On a point of order, Mr Presiding Officer. Yesterday, in reply to my intervention on a Labour member regarding the Executive's proposals for Gaelic education, I was advised that those proposals were clearly outlined in the Inverness Courier. While I recognise the importance of the Inverness Courier in the Highlands, I ask that a precedent be established that proposals and commitments are announced through this chamber, as the Inverness Courier is not yet available to all 129 MSPs.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order, Mr Presiding Officer. Yesterday, in reply to my intervention on a Labour member regarding the Executive's proposals for Gaelic education, I was advised that those proposals were clearly outlined in the Inverness Courier. While I recognise the importance of the Inverness Courier in the Highlands, I ask that a precedent be established that proposals and commitments are announced through this chamber, as the Inverness Courier is not yet available to all 129 MSPs.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4672278+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C704790", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Thursday 17 June 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26621, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26621, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 7.0, "ContributionID": 704790, "EditedText": "I have to rule that I am not responsible for the Inverness Courier, but no doubt the members of the Executive will have heard what the member has said.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have to rule that I am not responsible for the Inverness Courier, but no doubt the members of the Executive will have heard what the member has said.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4672278+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C704796", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 21.0, "ContributionID": 704796, "EditedText": "When Mr Dewar says that the cost was £15 million higher, is he talking about the estimates at that time or about the new costs that we now know have arisen?", "EditedTextHTML": "When Mr Dewar says that the cost was £15 million higher, is he talking about the estimates at that time or about the new costs that we now know have arisen?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4672278+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C704814", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Simpson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 60.0, "ContributionID": 704814, "EditedText": "Yes, thank you.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes, thank you.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4672278+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C704815", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Goldie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 62.0, "ContributionID": 704815, "EditedText": "Mr Gorrie's amendment suggests a sensible and practical way forward. It does not seek to halt all progress, nor does it seek to rule out the current Holyrood proposal; but it rightly calls for the brakes to be put on, pending proper investigation of other options. I offer no comment on those options other than to say that they seem worthy of investigation. Until that investigation happens, I cannot see how MSPs can responsibly mandate the expenditure of significant sums of public money when they cannot justify why their decision is the best one. By instinct, I am a protective soul, and while I shall draw short of accepting Mr Miralles's invitation to embrace the First Minister, I feel an obligation at least to look after him. Unless the investigation of the other options is made, there is a grave risk that the new Parliament will be identified as a product of self-interested, self- indulgent and profligate MSPs, and Dewar's folly will become a reality. In all seriousness, I think that that would be fair neither to him nor to the people of Scotland. His name should be associated with a Parliament that all of us can be proud of and can defend because we made the best decision based on all the information available, rather than a poor decision based on inadequate information.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Gorrie's amendment suggests a sensible and practical way forward. It does not seek to halt all progress, nor does it seek to rule out the current Holyrood proposal; but it rightly calls for the brakes to be put on, pending proper investigation of other options. I offer no comment on those options other than to say that they seem worthy of investigation. Until that investigation happens, I cannot see how MSPs can responsibly mandate the expenditure of significant sums of public money when they cannot justify why their decision is the best one.

By instinct, I am a protective soul, and while I shall draw short of accepting Mr Miralles's invitation to embrace the First Minister, I feel an obligation at least to look after him. Unless the

investigation of the other options is made, there is a grave risk that the new Parliament will be identified as a product of self-interested, self- indulgent and profligate MSPs, and Dewar's folly will become a reality. In all seriousness, I think that that would be fair neither to him nor to the people of Scotland. His name should be associated with a Parliament that all of us can be proud of and can defend because we made the best decision based on all the information available, rather than a poor decision based on inadequate information.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4672278+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1973E119P326C704799", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gorrie, Donald", "ID": 1973, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Donald Gorrie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Donald Gorrie (Central Scotland) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 28.0, "ContributionID": 704799, "EditedText": "I agree with Donald Dewar on one issue: the site is a parliamentary issue. Why, therefore, is he making us vote on an Executive motion? That is an outrage and has caused what may be a disproportionate response from another party. I have not lobbied my own colleagues, I have sent material to the whole Parliament—the same stuff to every member. How members respond to that material is up to them. As far as I am concerned, this is an individual, personal issue and Mr Dewar has as much right as I have, but no more, to make a decision. In all my time in politics, I do not remember anything that has caused me greater offence than the idea that one man should decide the site of a democratic Parliament. That is what has happened and it is absolutely unacceptable. There was no consultation on the Holyrood site. There was consultation on other sites and then, somehow, the Holyrood site was invented. The decision was widely condemned at the time. The timetable under which we are operating has no logical basis; it is driven by the former Secretary of State for Scotland who is now the First Minister. We have been told that we have to decide now, but there is no reason for that timetable. There is no reason for the Scottish Office to have pursued the issue of the Parliament site at all. It had to produce a temporary site, which it has done very well, and I give credit where it is due. All the other Parliaments that I have heard of started in a temporary site and then chose, in a mature fashion, where they wanted to be. There is no reason whatever why the Scottish Office had to be involved. If members vote for Mr Dewar's motion, they are committed to one thing for centuries. It is not like the standing orders, which we can change in the autumn—members will be committed for a long time. They will make that decision with no information on the alternatives. It would be ridiculous for a householder, deciding on a new house, to say, \"Well, there are three options, but we will look at only one of them.\" We are on a timetable that has been condemned by every professional who has spoken to me, whether or not they favoured Holyrood. Moreover, we have all received documents from professional bodies that favour Holyrood but have asked for a pause. If members vote for this motion, they will limit themselves to the present costs, and improvements, which will doubtless emerge, will not be possible. I am sure that conversation will produce suggestions for improvements, but those improvements will cost money, and either we will not get those improvements or cuts will have to be made elsewhere. The motion limits us to the present budget and to the present plans. Therefore, we are stuck with the proposed debating chamber. Mr Dewar said that that would be virtually no different from this debating chamber. From where I am standing I can see the faces of a great many members without craning my neck, whereas if I were to sit in an equivalent place in the proposed debating chamber, I would see only the back of members' necks. Personal contact is critical to any democratic debate, but the proposals will destroy that. Instead, they will produce a sort of Stalinist gathering, where people listen to a speech from the great leader. I am not into that sort of politics. Our amendment is not anti-Miralles or against the design team, whose proposal contains many good things. It is not anti-Holyrood. It suggests that we examine the options, but it does not commit people either to the Assembly Hall or to the Calton hill-Regent Road site. It is against rushing in without proper information. The Scottish Office involved various clever people, but they are all totally committed to the Holyrood project. With all due respect, they do not give unbiased advice, and the document from your office, Sir David, is tendentious in the extreme. We must get independent advice if the Holyrood scheme is to go ahead with proper, genuine support from the public and from members. Such advice would enable us to improve the chamber and other aspects of the design. Moreover, we could consider the other options that Mr Dewar has tried to rubbish. As I understand it, there were a number of different proposals for Calton hill, one of which was a very elegant scheme to add the chamber on to the outside of St Andrew's House. It is not true to say that the chamber would be hidden away, although there was one proposal to that effect. Part of the attraction of that site is not that it would be a traffic island in the middle of Regent Road, but that Waterloo Place and Regent Road would make a splendid boulevard. The site would involve the use of the Royal High School for meetings— not for full meetings of the Parliament, but for public consultation, committees and so on. Calton hill has been seen as the great icon of the Parliament movement. We could use the existing, improved facilities of St Andrew's House. We could have a fine, new debating chamber— with new architecture and any other new buildings that were necessary—up on a hill, where people could see it, and not in down in a hole. The Assembly Hall has great potential, as Mr James Simpson has shown, having dug out old plans from the University of Edinburgh on how to develop the area. That option needs to be considered, and it is extraordinarily foolish to rush ahead without considering it. The Calton hill site has fine buildings and space for expansion, which Holyrood does not. It is a fine site, as is the Assembly Hall. When I walk up from the bus stop in the morning, my heart lifts on seeing this building on the hill. It is something that one can be proud of. The designs for Holyrood are ingenious in many ways, but the site is in a hole. It has no presence—one has to climb Arthur's Seat to see it at all. It is a small site, with no room for expansion. It is hard to get to. People will drive to it, as the right bus routes do not exist. Even if people take the bus, they will have to make more bus trips, as they will have to change buses. Will our transport policy deal with such problems? There will be disruption to traffic, which will be sent through Holyrood park. Is that what we expect from the sort of Parliament that we are interested in? Furthermore, in the eyes of many people, the debating chamber is a complete no- no. Although the timetable for this project has been universally condemned, we are being hooked on to it today. Why is there such a rush? We can stay here for a bit longer to consider the options of staying here permanently, of going ahead more slowly with Holyrood if some improvements are made or of going to another site. There is no rush. We want to get things right, because, although no Parliament lasts for eternity, this one may last for a very long time. The downside is that there might be a delay, which will cost £500,000 a month, if we believe your office, Sir David, or £1 million a month, if we believe the First Minister. I would not like to choose between those two estimates. Although there will be some cost, it will be quite small. On the other hand, the cost of voting for the motion will be that we will never know whether we got things right or what the real options were that we turned down; we will be stuck with a proposal that has no room for major improvement and that will bring about major changes in cost. It would be extraordinarily foolish to vote for Mr Dewar's motion. We have a choice today. We can live with a benevolent despotism—it is benevolent, because Mr Dewar is a decent sort of bloke, but it is a despotism nevertheless. One man says what happens and we all obediently follow him. Alternatively, we can have a mature, parliamentary democracy. The question is: are we men and women or are we sheep? I move amendment S1M-52.1, to leave out all after \"Parliament\" and insert— \"(a) sets up a special committee consisting of the members of the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body (SPCB) and six other members chosen by the SPCB to work during the summer recess on the matters set out in (b) and (c) below; (b) instructs the special committee to commission a study by an independent organisation recommended by RIBA of the existing plans, realistic possibilities, costs and arguments for and against the potential sites for the Parliament at Holyrood, Calton Hill/Regent Road and the Mound, to be presented to the special committee before the end of the summer recess; (c) empowers the special committee, if it is convinced that the Holyrood scheme clearly offers the best option, to instruct work on the scheme to proceed with any modifications agreed by the committee, and, if it believes that another site is preferable or that there is no clear preferred site, or that the Holyrood site scheme should be pursued at high quality and increased costs over those set out in the Presiding Officer's note to members of 9 June 1999, to present all the relevant information to the Parliament for a decision as early as possible after the summer recess; (d) instructs the Holyrood Project Team to continue with any work, such as archaeological or site preparation works, which will be of value whatever the future of the site, but not to let any construction related contracts proceed until the special committee or the Parliament authorises it to do so; (e) instructs the SPCB to negotiate an appropriate timetable with the Holyrood Project Team if the Holyrood site is chosen by the special committee.\" The Presiding Officer: I said at the beginning that I wear two hats—as Presiding Officer and as chairman of the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body. As chairman of that body, I am anxious to hear from everybody. Many members wish to speak and so I propose to curtail speeches to three minutes. Indeed, as we proceed, if a member decides to move a motion to extend the debate by half an hour, I will be willing to accept that. However, we will see how we get on.", "EditedTextHTML": "I agree with Donald Dewar on one issue: the site is a parliamentary issue. Why, therefore, is he making us vote on an Executive motion? That is an outrage and has caused what may be a disproportionate response from another party.

I have not lobbied my own colleagues, I have sent material to the whole Parliament—the same stuff to every member. How members respond to that material is up to them. As far as I am concerned, this is an individual, personal issue and Mr Dewar has as much right as I have, but no more, to make a decision.

In all my time in politics, I do not remember anything that has caused me greater offence than the idea that one man should decide the site of a democratic Parliament. That is what has happened and it is absolutely unacceptable. There was no consultation on the Holyrood site. There

was consultation on other sites and then, somehow, the Holyrood site was invented. The decision was widely condemned at the time. The timetable under which we are operating has no logical basis; it is driven by the former Secretary of State for Scotland who is now the First Minister. We have been told that we have to decide now, but there is no reason for that timetable.

There is no reason for the Scottish Office to have pursued the issue of the Parliament site at all. It had to produce a temporary site, which it has done very well, and I give credit where it is due. All the other Parliaments that I have heard of started in a temporary site and then chose, in a mature fashion, where they wanted to be. There is no reason whatever why the Scottish Office had to be involved.

If members vote for Mr Dewar's motion, they are committed to one thing for centuries. It is not like the standing orders, which we can change in the autumn—members will be committed for a long time. They will make that decision with no information on the alternatives. It would be ridiculous for a householder, deciding on a new house, to say, \"Well, there are three options, but we will look at only one of them.\"

We are on a timetable that has been condemned by every professional who has spoken to me, whether or not they favoured Holyrood. Moreover, we have all received documents from professional bodies that favour Holyrood but have asked for a pause.

If members vote for this motion, they will limit themselves to the present costs, and improvements, which will doubtless emerge, will not be possible. I am sure that conversation will produce suggestions for improvements, but those improvements will cost money, and either we will not get those improvements or cuts will have to be made elsewhere.

The motion limits us to the present budget and to the present plans. Therefore, we are stuck with the proposed debating chamber. Mr Dewar said that that would be virtually no different from this debating chamber. From where I am standing I can see the faces of a great many members without craning my neck, whereas if I were to sit in an equivalent place in the proposed debating chamber, I would see only the back of members' necks. Personal contact is critical to any democratic debate, but the proposals will destroy that. Instead, they will produce a sort of Stalinist gathering, where people listen to a speech from the great leader. I am not into that sort of politics.

Our amendment is not anti-Miralles or against the design team, whose proposal contains many good things. It is not anti-Holyrood. It suggests that we examine the options, but it does not commit people either to the Assembly Hall or to the Calton hill-Regent Road site. It is against rushing in without proper information.

The Scottish Office involved various clever people, but they are all totally committed to the Holyrood project. With all due respect, they do not give unbiased advice, and the document from your office, Sir David, is tendentious in the extreme. We must get independent advice if the Holyrood scheme is to go ahead with proper, genuine support from the public and from members. Such advice would enable us to improve the chamber and other aspects of the design. Moreover, we could consider the other options that Mr Dewar has tried to rubbish.

As I understand it, there were a number of different proposals for Calton hill, one of which was a very elegant scheme to add the chamber on to the outside of St Andrew's House. It is not true to say that the chamber would be hidden away, although there was one proposal to that effect. Part of the attraction of that site is not that it would be a traffic island in the middle of Regent Road, but that Waterloo Place and Regent Road would make a splendid boulevard. The site would involve the use of the Royal High School for meetings— not for full meetings of the Parliament, but for public consultation, committees and so on.

Calton hill has been seen as the great icon of the Parliament movement. We could use the existing, improved facilities of St Andrew's House. We could have a fine, new debating chamber— with new architecture and any other new buildings that were necessary—up on a hill, where people could see it, and not in down in a hole.

The Assembly Hall has great potential, as Mr James Simpson has shown, having dug out old plans from the University of Edinburgh on how to develop the area. That option needs to be considered, and it is extraordinarily foolish to rush ahead without considering it.

The Calton hill site has fine buildings and space for expansion, which Holyrood does not. It is a fine site, as is the Assembly Hall. When I walk up from the bus stop in the morning, my heart lifts on seeing this building on the hill. It is something that one can be proud of.

The designs for Holyrood are ingenious in many ways, but the site is in a hole. It has no presence—one has to climb Arthur's Seat to see it at all. It is a small site, with no room for expansion. It is hard to get to. People will drive to it, as the right bus routes do not exist. Even if people take the bus, they will have to make more bus trips, as they will have to change buses.

Will our transport policy deal with such problems? There will be disruption to traffic, which will be sent through Holyrood park. Is that what we

expect from the sort of Parliament that we are interested in? Furthermore, in the eyes of many people, the debating chamber is a complete no- no.

Although the timetable for this project has been universally condemned, we are being hooked on to it today. Why is there such a rush? We can stay here for a bit longer to consider the options of staying here permanently, of going ahead more slowly with Holyrood if some improvements are made or of going to another site. There is no rush. We want to get things right, because, although no Parliament lasts for eternity, this one may last for a very long time.

The downside is that there might be a delay, which will cost £500,000 a month, if we believe your office, Sir David, or £1 million a month, if we believe the First Minister. I would not like to choose between those two estimates. Although there will be some cost, it will be quite small. On the other hand, the cost of voting for the motion will be that we will never know whether we got things right or what the real options were that we turned down; we will be stuck with a proposal that has no room for major improvement and that will bring about major changes in cost.

It would be extraordinarily foolish to vote for Mr Dewar's motion. We have a choice today. We can live with a benevolent despotism—it is benevolent, because Mr Dewar is a decent sort of bloke, but it is a despotism nevertheless. One man says what happens and we all obediently follow him. Alternatively, we can have a mature, parliamentary democracy. The question is: are we men and women or are we sheep?

I move amendment S1M-52.1, to leave out all after \"Parliament\" and insert—

\"(a) sets up a special committee consisting of the members of the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body (SPCB) and six other members chosen by the SPCB to work during the summer recess on the matters set out in (b) and (c) below; (b) instructs the special committee to commission a study by an independent organisation recommended by RIBA of the existing plans, realistic possibilities, costs and arguments for and against the potential sites for the Parliament at Holyrood, Calton Hill/Regent Road and the Mound, to be presented to the special committee before the end of the summer recess; (c) empowers the special committee, if it is convinced that the Holyrood scheme clearly offers the best option, to instruct work on the scheme to proceed with any modifications agreed by the committee, and, if it believes that another site is preferable or that there is no clear preferred site, or that the Holyrood site scheme should be pursued at high quality and increased costs over those set out in the Presiding Officer's note to members of 9 June 1999, to present all the relevant information to the Parliament for a decision as early as possible after the summer recess; (d) instructs the Holyrood Project Team to continue with any work, such as archaeological or site preparation works, which will be of value whatever the future of the site, but not to let any construction related contracts proceed until the special committee or the Parliament authorises it to do so; (e) instructs the SPCB to negotiate an appropriate timetable with the Holyrood Project Team if the Holyrood site is chosen by the special committee.\" The Presiding Officer: I said at the beginning that I wear two hats—as Presiding Officer and as chairman of the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body. As chairman of that body, I am anxious to hear from everybody. Many members wish to speak and so I propose to curtail speeches to three minutes. Indeed, as we proceed, if a member decides to move a motion to extend the debate by half an hour, I will be willing to accept that. However, we will see how we get on.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4672278+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2188E70P92C704816", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harper, Robin", "ID": 2188, "PartyName": "Scottish Green Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Green", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robin Harper", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robin Harper (Lothians) (Green): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 65.0, "ContributionID": 704816, "EditedText": "The result of today's debate will echo down throughout the history of building and architecture in Scotland for a century—a century that will look to the new building as an example of all that should be aimed for in public building. The building will have seen a century of use by parliamentarians. We have a public and a private responsibility to get it right. I am speaking to that portion of the motion that calls for delay on one set of very important and compelling grounds. There is every possibility that the principal new building of the century will not live up to what should be expected of it due to imprecise specification, lack of clear direction and the recently whispered willingness to relax the building's energy standards to save money. That would be the biggest imaginable waste of public money. Embodied energy, or lifetime energy use, is part of the cost of a building. Every pound spent now on energy conservation will be an investment that will pay back a significant proportion of the total cost of the building during its lifetime. We have a duty to make time for a thorough assessment of the energy use of this building and to improve the specifications. We must demand a building that will be an icon for the future and a yardstick of sustainability. In the present climate of opinion and Government's public commitments, which I shall come to, it would be bizarre to settle for anything less. What has worried me so far about the planning of the project is the apparent secrecy that still surrounds it. The fact that it is a Crown project means that building warrant drawings that would allow us to calculate the lifetime costs of the building need not be produced. This building will be used by the public as well as by members. They have an interest. Public accessibility should mean public accountability. Where are the drawings? No wind tunnel tests have been done yet despite the well-known windiness of Edinburgh, particularly round Arthur's Seat. Essentially we do not yet know whether the design is viable, although I confess that I like the exterior. If a child's view of the building is anything to go by, this is the kind of building that a child would love to dash into and explore. There seems to be no willingness to do everything possible to use Scottish hardwoods, despite the stored elm, sycamore and other hardwoods that would become available from several specialist sources in Scotland, given careful planning now. There is no commitment to the use of recycled materials such as warmcell, which is made from recycled newspaper. There is no excitement, no innovation and no creativity in this building so far. I have consulted experts such as the Scottish Environmental Design Association, which group has written to Mr McLeish and is not satisfied with his replies. I am reliably informed by them that a confession was made at the inquiry this week that the design team is aiming for only good to excellent in the energy specifications.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result of today's debate will echo down throughout the history of building and architecture in Scotland for a century—a century that will look to the new building as an example of all that should be aimed for in public building. The building will have seen a century of use by parliamentarians. We have a public and a private responsibility to get it right.

I am speaking to that portion of the motion that calls for delay on one set of very important and compelling grounds. There is every possibility that the principal new building of the century will not live up to what should be expected of it due to imprecise specification, lack of clear direction and the recently whispered willingness to relax the building's energy standards to save money.

That would be the biggest imaginable waste of public money. Embodied energy, or lifetime energy use, is part of the cost of a building. Every pound spent now on energy conservation will be an investment that will pay back a significant proportion of the total cost of the building during its lifetime. We have a duty to make time for a thorough assessment of the energy use of this building and to improve the specifications. We must demand a building that will be an icon for the future and a yardstick of sustainability. In the present climate of opinion and Government's public commitments, which I shall come to, it would be bizarre to settle for anything less.

What has worried me so far about the planning of the project is the apparent secrecy that still surrounds it. The fact that it is a Crown project means that building warrant drawings that would allow us to calculate the lifetime costs of the building need not be produced. This building will be used by the public as well as by members. They have an interest. Public accessibility should mean public accountability. Where are the drawings?

No wind tunnel tests have been done yet despite the well-known windiness of Edinburgh, particularly round Arthur's Seat. Essentially we do not yet know whether the design is viable, although I confess that I like the exterior. If a child's view of the building is anything to go by, this is the kind of building that a child would love to dash into and explore.

There seems to be no willingness to do everything possible to use Scottish hardwoods, despite the stored elm, sycamore and other hardwoods that would become available from several specialist sources in Scotland, given careful planning now. There is no commitment to the use of recycled materials such as warmcell, which is made from recycled newspaper. There is no excitement, no innovation and no creativity in this building so far.

I have consulted experts such as the Scottish Environmental Design Association, which group has written to Mr McLeish and is not satisfied with his replies. I am reliably informed by them that a confession was made at the inquiry this week that the design team is aiming for only good to excellent in the energy specifications.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4672278+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1791E121P209C704819", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hughes, Janis", "ID": 1791, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Rutherglen" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Janis Hughes", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Janis Hughes (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 72.0, "ContributionID": 704819, "EditedText": "The first Scottish Parliament for 300 years is an historic and memorable event. As befits such an event, we need a new, appropriate home. The white paper on devolution stated:\"The building the Scottish Parliament occupies must be of such a quality, durability and civic importance as to reflect the Parliament's status and operational needs.\" In Enric Miralles we have found an architect who can make those dreams a reality. Anyone who can sit here and say, hand on heart, that the facilities that we have now are satisfactory must surely be of questionable sanity. I am the first to admit that our office accommodation is very acceptable in the short term, but I am only in that office for a few hours a week. What about the staff who work there all day, every day? What about disabled visitors? It may be pleasant now to use three buildings and mingle with the tourists in the summer sun, but what about in December, January and February when the snow is six inches deep? Will it be such a nice little stroll then? One of the great opportunities when creating a great building is the chance to rectify all the things that are wrong with existing buildings. Is our current home environmentally friendly? I think not. Environmental issues will be a major consideration in the new building. Energy efficiency and environmentally conscious design principles will result in more economic construction costs, which is of prime importance, not least because it can also lead to reduced maintenance and energy consumption costs. Water will be used more economically and waste will be minimised and recycled. Natural lighting and ventilation via windows and a passive cooling system will ensure that everyone who uses the building is comfortable and will reduce the incidence of ailments such as sick building syndrome. For me, however, of prime importance is the need to provide a building that is accessible to everyone. The design for the new Parliament is compliant with Disability Scotland's guidelines. Compliance covers not only access facilities, but signage, interior design, pedestrian and vehicular access and assistance for people who are hard of hearing, the visually impaired and the infirm. As a brand-new Parliament whose members seek to formulate a new type of government, the new building must be an exemplary model of access for all, irrespective of disability. The Scottish Parliament last sat 300 years ago. How long do we want this one to last? To use my mother's cliché, \"You only get what you pay for.\" If we do not invest now, how many years will it be until we are examining designs for another new Parliament? What would the cost be then? All members know how frustrating it is to be here and not to be able to pass legislation because we have not yet taken on our full powers. What about the frustration of the staff who work here in cramped conditions, and of the public who are being disfranchised because we are not allowing them access? Let us waste no more time. Let us get down to this project now and get into our new building as quickly as possible.", "EditedTextHTML": "The first Scottish Parliament for 300 years is an historic and memorable event. As befits such an event, we need a new, appropriate home.

The white paper on devolution stated:

\"The building the Scottish Parliament occupies must be of such a quality, durability and civic importance as to reflect the Parliament's status and operational needs.\"

In Enric Miralles we have found an architect who can make those dreams a reality. Anyone who can sit here and say, hand on heart, that the facilities that we have now are satisfactory must surely be of questionable sanity.

I am the first to admit that our office accommodation is very acceptable in the short term, but I am only in that office for a few hours a week. What about the staff who work there all day,

every day? What about disabled visitors? It may be pleasant now to use three buildings and mingle with the tourists in the summer sun, but what about in December, January and February when the snow is six inches deep? Will it be such a nice little stroll then?

One of the great opportunities when creating a great building is the chance to rectify all the things that are wrong with existing buildings. Is our current home environmentally friendly? I think not. Environmental issues will be a major consideration in the new building. Energy efficiency and environmentally conscious design principles will result in more economic construction costs, which is of prime importance, not least because it can also lead to reduced maintenance and energy consumption costs. Water will be used more economically and waste will be minimised and recycled. Natural lighting and ventilation via windows and a passive cooling system will ensure that everyone who uses the building is comfortable and will reduce the incidence of ailments such as sick building syndrome.

For me, however, of prime importance is the need to provide a building that is accessible to everyone. The design for the new Parliament is compliant with Disability Scotland's guidelines. Compliance covers not only access facilities, but signage, interior design, pedestrian and vehicular access and assistance for people who are hard of hearing, the visually impaired and the infirm.

As a brand-new Parliament whose members seek to formulate a new type of government, the new building must be an exemplary model of access for all, irrespective of disability. The Scottish Parliament last sat 300 years ago. How long do we want this one to last? To use my mother's cliché, \"You only get what you pay for.\" If we do not invest now, how many years will it be until we are examining designs for another new Parliament? What would the cost be then?

All members know how frustrating it is to be here and not to be able to pass legislation because we have not yet taken on our full powers. What about the frustration of the staff who work here in cramped conditions, and of the public who are being disfranchised because we are not allowing them access? Let us waste no more time. Let us get down to this project now and get into our new building as quickly as possible.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4672278+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1826E199P351C704822", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Smith, Margaret", "ID": 1826, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Smith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Margaret Smith (Edinburgh West) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 82.0, "ContributionID": 704822, "EditedText": "I would like to be able to support the Holyrood project going ahead immediately. I probably have less concern about the Holyrood project than some other members, but enough to say that delay is prudent. We are not constructing a building that will stand for 10, 20 or 50 years; potentially, we are constructing a building that will stand for hundreds of years. We must make sure that we get it right. In a previous existence not too far from here as a local councillor in the City of Edinburgh, I served on the transportation and planning committees. From the beginning, there was much concern among the people who serve Edinburgh about the Holyrood site. There was a definite feeling that we were bounced into accepting Holyrood. The vast majority of City of Edinburgh councillors thought that Calton hill was a better situation. As Donald Gorrie said, having a boulevard with a Parliament on Calton hill that is accessible in terms of transport and for people with disabilities is very attractive. It is unfortunate that that site is not the one that we accepted. However, I am not totally against the idea of Holyrood. We are at an historic point in our nation's history. It is a time for us to be bold and adventurous, but also to get it right. I am not saying that Holyrood is the wrong site; I am saying that members of this Parliament have enough questions about the project for us to take stock. We should examine the costs and the materials, as well as accessibility and transport, to which I shall refer. I am concerned about the inadequate transport impact assessment studies that we have seen. Like Mr Russell, I am concerned that the project team said that a Parliament could be built at Holyrood, which is next to a palace, the Dynamic Earth exhibition, the new offices of The Scotsman, new flats and other developments, which will attract 2 million people a year, but that that would not mean more cars at any of the junctions. I am sorry, but I sat on a transport committee for four years and in that time I managed to work out that if 2 million people were put into an area of half a square mile, there would be congestion at some junctions. We do not have the full transport picture. I say to the First Minister and to the project team that this is an ideal opportunity for us to build a Parliament that befits what we do. We—the men and women of this chamber—are the Parliament. We could meet in a hut, if we did it in the right spirit and with the right soul, the right briefing, the right intelligence and the right passion in our bellies for our country—that is what is important. It is right that we construct a splendid building, wherever that happens to be, but it is also right that we use it to show symbolically that we are moving into a new century. One of the things about that new century is that we must put in place transport systems that work for the people of this city and for the people of Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "I would like to be able to support the Holyrood project going ahead immediately. I probably have less concern about the Holyrood project than some other members, but enough to say that delay is prudent.

We are not constructing a building that will stand for 10, 20 or 50 years; potentially, we are constructing a building that will stand for hundreds of years. We must make sure that we get it right.

In a previous existence not too far from here as a local councillor in the City of Edinburgh, I served on the transportation and planning committees. From the beginning, there was much concern among the people who serve Edinburgh about the Holyrood site. There was a definite feeling that we were bounced into accepting Holyrood. The vast majority of City of Edinburgh councillors thought that Calton hill was a better situation. As Donald Gorrie said, having a boulevard with a Parliament on Calton hill that is accessible in terms of transport and for people with disabilities is very attractive. It is unfortunate that that site is not the one that we accepted.

However, I am not totally against the idea of Holyrood. We are at an historic point in our nation's history. It is a time for us to be bold and adventurous, but also to get it right. I am not saying that Holyrood is the wrong site; I am saying that members of this Parliament have enough questions about the project for us to take stock. We should examine the costs and the materials, as well as accessibility and transport, to which I shall refer.

I am concerned about the inadequate transport impact assessment studies that we have seen. Like Mr Russell, I am concerned that the project team said that a Parliament could be built at Holyrood, which is next to a palace, the Dynamic Earth exhibition, the new offices of The Scotsman, new flats and other developments, which will attract 2 million people a year, but that that would not mean more cars at any of the junctions. I am sorry, but I sat on a transport committee for four years and in that time I managed to work out that if 2 million people were put into an area of half a square mile, there would be congestion at some junctions.

We do not have the full transport picture. I say to the First Minister and to the project team that this is an ideal opportunity for us to build a Parliament that befits what we do. We—the men and women of this chamber—are the Parliament. We could meet in a hut, if we did it in the right spirit and with the right soul, the right briefing, the right intelligence and the right passion in our bellies for our country—that is what is important. It is right that we construct a splendid building, wherever that happens to be, but it is also right that we use it to show symbolically that we are moving into a new century. One of the things about that new century is that we must put in place transport systems that work for the people of this city and for the people of Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2118E157P454C704831", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Quinan, Mr Lloyd", "ID": 2118, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lloyd Quinan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Lloyd Quinan (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 105.0, "ContributionID": 704831, "EditedText": "The issue is being discussed on party political lines today, which is sad. Any rejection of the Holyrood site appears as an attack on the Miralles design—that is not the case. I was born and brought up in Edinburgh; I remember well when the Scottish and Newcastle building was built and the chaos that that caused in that area of the High Street. I should be fascinated to know how many members have taken a walk down the High Street to the site and back up Holyrood Road and have taken into account the feelings of the people of Dumbiedykes, for instance. I remember when the extension to Moray House College was built on the far side of Holyrood Road and the traffic chaos that that caused. The traffic impact study that has been made available to us appears to say nothing about Dynamic Earth—to which Margaret Smith referred—and nothing about the 2 million people who are expected to visit the Parliament. It claims that there will be no traffic problems. Anyone who comes down Abbey hill at half-past 8 in the morning, as I did today—under the bridge and to the bottom of the High Street—will see that there are major congestion problems. We should support the amendment to allow us to make proper decisions and to take into account what is necessary before we proceed with a new building. The other day, I went with an open mind to see Mr Miralles and the project team. I asked them two questions, neither of which they could answer satisfactorily, although I thought that they were fairly simple questions at this stage, with work about to move into the construction phase. I asked how long the roof would last and when the first major refurbishment of the exterior walls was expected. I received no reply. They had no answers. Labour members who were there know that that was the case. I worry deeply because we are investing in a building that is supposed to last for many years, perhaps 100 years.", "EditedTextHTML": "The issue is being discussed on party political lines today, which is sad. Any rejection of the Holyrood site appears as an attack on the Miralles design—that is not the case. I was born and brought up in Edinburgh; I remember well when the Scottish and Newcastle building was built and the chaos that that caused in that area of the High Street. I should be fascinated to know how many members have taken a walk down the High Street to the site and back up Holyrood Road and have taken into account the feelings of the people of Dumbiedykes, for instance. I remember when the extension to Moray House College was built on the far side of Holyrood Road and the traffic chaos that that caused.

The traffic impact study that has been made available to us appears to say nothing about Dynamic Earth—to which Margaret Smith referred—and nothing about the 2 million people who are expected to visit the Parliament. It claims that there will be no traffic problems. Anyone who comes down Abbey hill at half-past 8 in the morning, as I did today—under the bridge and to the bottom of the High Street—will see that there are major congestion problems. We should support the amendment to allow us to make proper decisions and to take into account what is necessary before we proceed with a new building.

The other day, I went with an open mind to see Mr Miralles and the project team. I asked them two questions, neither of which they could answer satisfactorily, although I thought that they were fairly simple questions at this stage, with work about to move into the construction phase. I asked how long the roof would last and when the first major refurbishment of the exterior walls was expected. I received no reply. They had no answers. Labour members who were there know that that was the case. I worry deeply because we are investing in a building that is supposed to last for many years, perhaps 100 years.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2185E120P328C704834", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Brown, Robert", "ID": 2185, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robert Brown", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robert Brown (Glasgow) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 112.0, "ContributionID": 704834, "EditedText": "I have great difficulty with this subject. As a Glasgow member, I come to it with no preconceived notions and had no detailed knowledge of the locations in Edinburgh before my arrival here, bar my occasional visits to the High Court, the Court of Session and associated buildings. I have considerable qualms about the way in which the issue has arisen and is being debated today. The First Minister told us that there would be a free vote among Labour members, but I think that we all anticipate that, at the end of the debate, the Labour members who vote against the motion—if any—will be fewer than can be counted on the fingers of one hand. The SNP, which is apparently to have a whipped vote on the issue, tells us that it is considering the matter from various perspectives, that there is nothing at all political about it, and that it is acting in the best interests of Scotland. Those are the wrong ways in which to approach the matter. It is wrong that it should be presented to us as an Executive motion; we should have had a vote on a motion by the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body. I speak as a member of that body, and regard my role as being something of a trustee for the Parliament, subject to taking a steer from the Parliament on a matter such as this. I have considerable qualms about our present position. Whatever the rights and wrongs of Donald Dewar's original decision—and I have immense respect for Donald's artistic knowledge and feeling for this kind of thing, which go far beyond anything that I can offer the Parliament— we are faced with a fait accompli in a situation in which there is no stark decision to be made. I do not know the reason for the hurry. A letter from the Royal Incorporation of Architects in Scotland has been circulated to members. It concludes: \"It would be prudent . . . when end-user (MSP) adjustments are rightly being sought to refine this design, to ensure that a realistic time scale and budget are established which recognise the high quality specification demanded of the project, and the inevitable adjustments which will be required during its realisation. Members of the architectural profession have felt for some time that both budget and time scale would need to be reviewed for a variety of reasons if these aims were to be met.\" I take that letter quite seriously because the advice that it contains comes from an independent source. At the same time, I thought that Mike Watson made a valid point when he said that a two-month delay would not be enough to resolve the problems. We are faced with on-going costs and difficulties in proceeding with the project. At the end of the day, the decision is one for Parliament, not for the Executive. I am trying to come to a view on a matter about which information is growing by the day. I do not have architectural knowledge, nor do I have a detailed method of assessing the financial issues, although the financial issues are not, I think, key things that ultimately have to be decided here. I do not like one or two aspects of the project. I am not satisfied with the 135 parking spaces and the justification that has been given for them—we are now supposed to be in a rather greener environment. I am not happy with the public access that is proposed for the new building. Here, there are 350 seats, which have been pretty much filled day after day since the commencement of the Parliament, and that is a good thing. I like this site, I like being in the heart of the city and it is appropriate that Parliament should be in the heart of the city. I am not convinced that, if we move down to Holyrood, the public will have the same feel for it. There are difficulties with the walking route and, as Margaret Smith observed, there are still unresolved accessibility difficulties. The traffic report that we received this morning effectively said that things are yet to be done, and an intensive and on-going study to ensure that accessibility measures are in place is not yet being carried out. We are not in a position to make decisions on the matter. I will listen to the rest of the debate. I am not giving members my opinion at the moment, but I have considerable qualms about the way in which things are being done and the direction in which the project is going. It is important that we get things right. This is a major decision, with which we will have to live for a long time to come.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have great difficulty with this subject. As a Glasgow member, I

come to it with no preconceived notions and had no detailed knowledge of the locations in Edinburgh before my arrival here, bar my occasional visits to the High Court, the Court of Session and associated buildings. I have considerable qualms about the way in which the issue has arisen and is being debated today.

The First Minister told us that there would be a free vote among Labour members, but I think that we all anticipate that, at the end of the debate, the Labour members who vote against the motion—if any—will be fewer than can be counted on the fingers of one hand. The SNP, which is apparently to have a whipped vote on the issue, tells us that it is considering the matter from various perspectives, that there is nothing at all political about it, and that it is acting in the best interests of Scotland.

Those are the wrong ways in which to approach the matter. It is wrong that it should be presented to us as an Executive motion; we should have had a vote on a motion by the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body. I speak as a member of that body, and regard my role as being something of a trustee for the Parliament, subject to taking a steer from the Parliament on a matter such as this.

I have considerable qualms about our present position. Whatever the rights and wrongs of Donald Dewar's original decision—and I have immense respect for Donald's artistic knowledge and feeling for this kind of thing, which go far beyond anything that I can offer the Parliament— we are faced with a fait accompli in a situation in which there is no stark decision to be made. I do not know the reason for the hurry. A letter from the Royal Incorporation of Architects in Scotland has been circulated to members. It concludes:

\"It would be prudent . . . when end-user (MSP) adjustments are rightly being sought to refine this design, to ensure that a realistic time scale and budget are established which recognise the high quality specification demanded of the project, and the inevitable adjustments which will be required during its realisation. Members of the architectural profession have felt for some time that both budget and time scale would need to be reviewed for a variety of reasons if these aims were to be met.\"

I take that letter quite seriously because the advice that it contains comes from an independent source. At the same time, I thought that Mike Watson made a valid point when he said that a two-month delay would not be enough to resolve the problems. We are faced with on-going costs and difficulties in proceeding with the project.

At the end of the day, the decision is one for Parliament, not for the Executive. I am trying to come to a view on a matter about which information is growing by the day. I do not have architectural knowledge, nor do I have a detailed method of assessing the financial issues, although the financial issues are not, I think, key things that ultimately have to be decided here.

I do not like one or two aspects of the project. I am not satisfied with the 135 parking spaces and the justification that has been given for them—we are now supposed to be in a rather greener environment. I am not happy with the public access that is proposed for the new building. Here, there are 350 seats, which have been pretty much filled day after day since the commencement of the Parliament, and that is a good thing. I like this site, I like being in the heart of the city and it is appropriate that Parliament should be in the heart of the city. I am not convinced that, if we move down to Holyrood, the public will have the same feel for it. There are difficulties with the walking route and, as Margaret Smith observed, there are still unresolved accessibility difficulties. The traffic report that we received this morning effectively said that things are yet to be done, and an intensive and on-going study to ensure that accessibility measures are in place is not yet being carried out. We are not in a position to make decisions on the matter.

I will listen to the rest of the debate. I am not giving members my opinion at the moment, but I have considerable qualms about the way in which things are being done and the direction in which the project is going. It is important that we get things right. This is a major decision, with which we will have to live for a long time to come.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1751E163P286C704835", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Craigie, Cathie", "ID": 1751, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Cumbernauld and Kilsyth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Cathie Craigie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Cathie Craigie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 115.0, "ContributionID": 704835, "EditedText": "I welcome the opportunity to speak on the issue of the permanent home for the new, and first democratically elected, Scottish Parliament. Much debate has taken place during the past few years about the Parliament's location, and after that debate it has been decided that it will be located in Holyrood. Fergus Ewing said that he would like the Parliament to be situated in his constituency, and indeed there were bids from people in various areas—one of them not too far from me—who lost out. The decision has been taken, and the First Minister outlined this morning just how he arrived at that decision. We will locate in Edinburgh and we will—I hope—locate in Holyrood. I am proud and honoured to have been elected by the people of Cumbernauld and Kilsyth to represent them in this new Parliament. In the speeches that I made during my election campaign, I made it clear to the electorate that I supported the building of a new Parliament complex, not for the benefit of its members, but for the benefit of the people of Scotland. We offered the voters a new beginning. In myarea and elsewhere, we promised change. The proposals for the new building have been endorsed by the people of Scotland. When they voted, they voted by a majority for parties that were offering a new Parliament complex. The people of Scotland did not vote for a \"mak a fool aw\" Parliament. That is how people in Kilsyth would describe the way in which we are going about things today and some of the suggestions for a solution that we can mak do with. They voted for a Parliament that was new because they wanted something better. They deserve, and we should provide, a Parliament suitable for the new millennium. Enric Miralles and his team have designed a complex that we should all be proud of. Costs are important, and we should be aware that the public want value for money. However, they have been misled into believing that the costs are rocketing out of control. That is not the case, and I was pleased to hear Brian Taylor confirm to the listeners of Radio Scotland this morning that the figure of £90 million had been in the public domain since last year. If members accepted the answer given by the Holyrood project team that the increased costs can be attributed, in the main, to changes and improvements in design specification, I believe that they would be accepting the facts. The shape of the chamber has excited the minds of members, some positively and some negatively. The parliamentary complex has been designed with access at its heart, not as an afterthought and not as something that can be adapted at a later date, but as a building that will hold no barriers. I did not recognise the comments that Michael Matheson made about access in the new building. Nor did I recognise Lloyd Quinan's comments about answers that he allegedly did not receive about the costs of the building and the lifespan of the roofing and exterior walls. The proposals before us would have Scotland leading the world, with a Parliament building that had open access for all people. It is not unthinkable to suggest that that building should be used for other functions, as one of my colleagues suggested earlier.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the opportunity to speak on the issue of the permanent home for the new, and first democratically elected, Scottish Parliament. Much debate has taken place during the past few years about the Parliament's location, and after that debate it has been decided that it will be located in Holyrood.

Fergus Ewing said that he would like the Parliament to be situated in his constituency, and indeed there were bids from people in various areas—one of them not too far from me—who lost out. The decision has been taken, and the First Minister outlined this morning just how he arrived at that decision. We will locate in Edinburgh and we will—I hope—locate in Holyrood.

I am proud and honoured to have been elected by the people of Cumbernauld and Kilsyth to represent them in this new Parliament. In the speeches that I made during my election campaign, I made it clear to the electorate that I supported the building of a new Parliament complex, not for the benefit of its members, but for the benefit of the people of Scotland.

We offered the voters a new beginning. In my

area and elsewhere, we promised change. The proposals for the new building have been endorsed by the people of Scotland. When they voted, they voted by a majority for parties that were offering a new Parliament complex.

The people of Scotland did not vote for a \"mak a fool aw\" Parliament. That is how people in Kilsyth would describe the way in which we are going about things today and some of the suggestions for a solution that we can mak do with. They voted for a Parliament that was new because they wanted something better. They deserve, and we should provide, a Parliament suitable for the new millennium.

Enric Miralles and his team have designed a complex that we should all be proud of. Costs are important, and we should be aware that the public want value for money. However, they have been misled into believing that the costs are rocketing out of control. That is not the case, and I was pleased to hear Brian Taylor confirm to the listeners of Radio Scotland this morning that the figure of £90 million had been in the public domain since last year.

If members accepted the answer given by the Holyrood project team that the increased costs can be attributed, in the main, to changes and improvements in design specification, I believe that they would be accepting the facts.

The shape of the chamber has excited the minds of members, some positively and some negatively. The parliamentary complex has been designed with access at its heart, not as an afterthought and not as something that can be adapted at a later date, but as a building that will hold no barriers. I did not recognise the comments that Michael Matheson made about access in the new building. Nor did I recognise Lloyd Quinan's comments about answers that he allegedly did not receive about the costs of the building and the lifespan of the roofing and exterior walls.

The proposals before us would have Scotland leading the world, with a Parliament building that had open access for all people. It is not unthinkable to suggest that that building should be used for other functions, as one of my colleagues suggested earlier.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1751E163P286C704837", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Craigie, Cathie", "ID": 1751, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Cumbernauld and Kilsyth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Cathie Craigie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Cathie Craigie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 119.0, "ContributionID": 704837, "EditedText": "I have no intention of giving way. I am sure that Ms MacDonald will want to speak later; she can make her point of information in her own time. The building will be constructed with taxpayers' money, and Scottish taxpayers should be able to use it. The new chamber is an exemplar. It caters for everyone: whether we have physical or sensory difficulties, it will hold no barriers. I hope that the corporate body does not make any changes to that design. The points made by some members about the shape of the chamber show that those members are driven by self-interest. Their concern is not about what the building can do for the people of Scotland, but about what it can do for them, for their inflated egos, for their desire to display their debating skills and to be seen by the press. The people of Scotland voted for something new; not for a talking shop, but for a Parliament of and for the people. Members must get their heads out of the sand, or down from the dizzy heights of publicity, and stop wasting taxpayers' money. The meter is running for every week and month of delay, and it is costing us money. Let us get the new building up and running. Let us get to work for the people who depend on us to improve the quality of their lives. Let us get down to the business that we were sent here to do. We must agree to the proposals and give Scotland a cluster of buildings—as the architect described them—of quality and dignity that will serve us well into the new millennium and beyond.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have no intention of giving way. I am sure that Ms MacDonald will want to speak later; she can make her point of information in her own time.

The building will be constructed with taxpayers' money, and Scottish taxpayers should be able to use it. The new chamber is an exemplar. It caters for everyone: whether we have physical or sensory difficulties, it will hold no barriers. I hope that the corporate body does not make any changes to that design.

The points made by some members about the shape of the chamber show that those members are driven by self-interest. Their concern is not about what the building can do for the people of Scotland, but about what it can do for them, for their inflated egos, for their desire to display their debating skills and to be seen by the press.

The people of Scotland voted for something new; not for a talking shop, but for a Parliament of and for the people. Members must get their heads out of the sand, or down from the dizzy heights of publicity, and stop wasting taxpayers' money. The meter is running for every week and month of delay, and it is costing us money. Let us get the new building up and running. Let us get to work for the people who depend on us to improve the quality of their lives. Let us get down to the business that we were sent here to do. We must agree to the proposals and give Scotland a cluster of buildings—as the architect described them—of quality and dignity that will serve us well into the new millennium and beyond.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C704843", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Ferguson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 135.0, "ContributionID": 704843, "EditedText": "No Mr Ewing, I am not taking interventions; I have just started. Given the fact that the SNP has decided that its members cannot have independence of thought today, I thought that it was a bit rich for Mr Ewing to lecture us this morning on independence. SNP members should consider that. I am delighted that we are having this debate, because it gives us the opportunity to show our confidence in the success of this Parliament and in the new Scotland that we will help to shape. When we consider the proposed design, we must take into account the needs of MSPs and their staff and the needs of the Parliament staff. The Parliament also needs to be open and accessible to all. At the moment, visitors have to walk up and down the High Street to find the seven buildings that make up the Parliament and, while adaptations have been made to those buildings to provide disabled access, the distance that has to be travelled between the buildings makes accessibility very difficult. I am sure that that problem is being addressed in the proposals for the new building. I have been impressed by the efforts of the Parliament staff who have adapted the buildings that we are using to provide us with a temporary home, but by no yardstick or criterion can this arrangement be anything other than temporary. We may have just about enough committee rooms for all our new committees, but the committees will be open to the public—presumably if there is any space left. There is nowhere for members to meet their constituents; nor is there a crèche in our family-friendly Parliament. The design for the new building is bold, innovative and modern; the building will be both functional and a symbol of all that we want the Scottish Parliament to be. The historic site that has been chosen presents us with an historic opportunity to leave for future generations an inheritance of which they can be proud. The Parliament at Holyrood will reinvigorate the Canongate and give new life to Holyrood park. Members have stated, rightly, our duty to ensure that funds from the public purse are used wisely. I am sure that our colleagues on the corporate body—the people whom we have made responsible for the new building—will carry out that task diligently. Remaining here on the Mound would be a folly that future generations would not understand. As a Glaswegian, I am very fond of the tenement—that peculiarly Scottish form of housing—but do we really want to go down in history as the new Parliament that decided to hold its meetings, for the rest of its life, up a close? I do not think so.", "EditedTextHTML": "No Mr Ewing, I am not taking interventions; I have just started.

Given the fact that the SNP has decided that its members cannot have independence of thought today, I thought that it was a bit rich for Mr Ewing to lecture us this morning on independence. SNP members should consider that.

I am delighted that we are having this debate, because it gives us the opportunity to show our confidence in the success of this Parliament and in the new Scotland that we will help to shape. When we consider the proposed design, we must take into account the needs of MSPs and their staff and the needs of the Parliament staff.

The Parliament also needs to be open and accessible to all. At the moment, visitors have to walk up and down the High Street to find the seven buildings that make up the Parliament and, while adaptations have been made to those buildings to provide disabled access, the distance that has to be travelled between the buildings makes accessibility very difficult. I am sure that that problem is being addressed in the proposals for the new building.

I have been impressed by the efforts of the Parliament staff who have adapted the buildings that we are using to provide us with a temporary home, but by no yardstick or criterion can this arrangement be anything other than temporary. We may have just about enough committee rooms for all our new committees, but the committees will be open to the public—presumably if there is any space left. There is nowhere for members to meet their constituents; nor is there a crèche in our family-friendly Parliament.

The design for the new building is bold, innovative and modern; the building will be both functional and a symbol of all that we want the

Scottish Parliament to be. The historic site that has been chosen presents us with an historic opportunity to leave for future generations an inheritance of which they can be proud. The Parliament at Holyrood will reinvigorate the Canongate and give new life to Holyrood park.

Members have stated, rightly, our duty to ensure that funds from the public purse are used wisely. I am sure that our colleagues on the corporate body—the people whom we have made responsible for the new building—will carry out that task diligently. Remaining here on the Mound would be a folly that future generations would not understand. As a Glaswegian, I am very fond of the tenement—that peculiarly Scottish form of housing—but do we really want to go down in history as the new Parliament that decided to hold its meetings, for the rest of its life, up a close? I do not think so.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C704844", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bruce Crawford (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 138.0, "ContributionID": 704844, "EditedText": "At the beginning of the debate on where the Parliament should be sited, I, like many others, favoured the Calton hill site. However, things have moved on, decisions have been made and important milestones have been reached. Perhaps the most important milestone is the perception, widely held in Scotland, that we are already located at Holyrood; that name, in wider Scotland, is already deeply rooted in the mindset as synonymous with the Scottish Parliament. Much of Scotland has accepted, rightly or wrongly, that Holyrood should be the site of the Parliament. If the amendment wins today—and, rightly, it should—it will need to be explained carefully to the Scottish people. If the First Minister's motion is defeated, the position should be accepted as one of pragmatism, common sense, and, hopefully, in the end, consensus. Scotland deserves no less. Nobody can doubt that incorrect decisions have been hurriedly taken at crucial moments. Frankly, the whole process has been handled extremely badly in terms of public relations, design consultation, and finance. There is a perception that it has been a complete boorach. There can be no doubt that serious and difficult questions remain to be answered about the way in which this project has been managed from the outset. The key decision takers must answer those questions. I dread to think what derision might have been visited on councillors if this had happened in a local authority. In my former life as a Scottish Office employee and as leader of Perth and Kinross Council, I was required to make proper account for my actions. The key decision- takers here should be no different. I have considered this issue long and hard,followed the media coverage, attended the briefing events, read all the briefing material that I could find, and listened to the speeches today. None of it has made a decision any easier. On balance, I am still for Holyrood, but I have to be certain that the outstanding concerns have been properly addressed. Scotland deserves no less. Donald Gorrie's amendment gives us the opportunity to secure the greatest level of support possible for Holyrood. Those who are committed to Holyrood should have nothing to fear from a further delay to ensure that others can be convinced. If it is the best site, its merits will shine through. Scotland needs a new Parliament building that is not hindered by the baggage of the past, is truly significant, and allows us to recognise ourselves for what we are.", "EditedTextHTML": "At the beginning of the debate on where the Parliament should be sited, I, like many others, favoured the Calton hill site. However, things have moved on, decisions have been made and important milestones have been reached.

Perhaps the most important milestone is the perception, widely held in Scotland, that we are already located at Holyrood; that name, in wider Scotland, is already deeply rooted in the mindset as synonymous with the Scottish Parliament. Much of Scotland has accepted, rightly or wrongly, that Holyrood should be the site of the Parliament.

If the amendment wins today—and, rightly, it should—it will need to be explained carefully to the Scottish people. If the First Minister's motion is defeated, the position should be accepted as one of pragmatism, common sense, and, hopefully, in the end, consensus. Scotland deserves no less. Nobody can doubt that incorrect decisions have been hurriedly taken at crucial moments. Frankly, the whole process has been handled extremely badly in terms of public relations, design consultation, and finance. There is a perception that it has been a complete boorach.

There can be no doubt that serious and difficult questions remain to be answered about the way in which this project has been managed from the outset. The key decision takers must answer those questions. I dread to think what derision might have been visited on councillors if this had happened in a local authority. In my former life as a Scottish Office employee and as leader of Perth and Kinross Council, I was required to make proper account for my actions. The key decision- takers here should be no different.

I have considered this issue long and hard,

followed the media coverage, attended the briefing events, read all the briefing material that I could find, and listened to the speeches today. None of it has made a decision any easier.

On balance, I am still for Holyrood, but I have to be certain that the outstanding concerns have been properly addressed. Scotland deserves no less. Donald Gorrie's amendment gives us the opportunity to secure the greatest level of support possible for Holyrood. Those who are committed to Holyrood should have nothing to fear from a further delay to ensure that others can be convinced. If it is the best site, its merits will shine through. Scotland needs a new Parliament building that is not hindered by the baggage of the past, is truly significant, and allows us to recognise ourselves for what we are.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1986E53P206C704849", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeil, Duncan", "ID": 1986, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Greenock and Inverclyde" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan McNeil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Duncan McNeil (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 151.0, "ContributionID": 704849, "EditedText": "Will Dorothy-Grace Elder allow an intervention?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Dorothy-Grace Elder allow an intervention?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1762E216P508C704856", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Elder, Dorothy-Grace", "ID": 1762, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 165.0, "ContributionID": 704856, "EditedText": "I am sorry, but I am finishing, George.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry, but I am finishing, George.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1762E216P508C704858", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Elder, Dorothy-Grace", "ID": 1762, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 169.0, "ContributionID": 704858, "EditedText": "I do beg your pardon.", "EditedTextHTML": "I do beg your pardon.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C704861", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 175.0, "ContributionID": 704861, "EditedText": "No, I do not think that that is germane to this debate. Please sit down. Keith Raffan may speak for two minutes only.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I do not think that that is germane to this debate. Please sit down.

Keith Raffan may speak for two minutes only.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2080E130P217C704863", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lamont, Johann", "ID": 2080, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Pollok" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Johann Lamont", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Johann Lamont (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 180.0, "ContributionID": 704863, "EditedText": "Will Mr Raffan give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr Raffan give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1828E200P487C704866", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacDonald, Margo", "ID": 1828, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margo MacDonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Margo MacDonald (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 187.0, "ContributionID": 704866, "EditedText": "Can I confirm that I have seven minutes?", "EditedTextHTML": "Can I confirm that I have seven minutes?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1751E163P286C704871", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Craigie, Cathie", "ID": 1751, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Cumbernauld and Kilsyth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Cathie Craigie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Cathie Craigie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 197.0, "ContributionID": 704871, "EditedText": "Does Ms MacDonald agree that the figure of £90 million was in the public domain more than a year ago?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does Ms MacDonald agree that the figure of £90 million was in the public domain more than a year ago?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C704876", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 208.0, "ContributionID": 704876, "EditedText": "The corporate body will respond to whatever the decision of this Parliament is at the end of the debate. Mr McNulty is responding to the points raised in the debate.", "EditedTextHTML": "The corporate body will respond to whatever the decision of this Parliament is at the end of the debate. Mr McNulty is responding to the points raised in the debate.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C704873", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 201.0, "ContributionID": 704873, "EditedText": "I call Des McNulty to respond to the debate on behalf of the SPCB.", "EditedTextHTML": "I call Des McNulty to respond to the debate on behalf of the SPCB.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C704875", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 206.0, "ContributionID": 704875, "EditedText": "On a point of order. It was said that Mr McNulty was speaking on behalf of the corporate body. Has the corporate body taken a view on the matter? It seems from Mr McNulty's speech that he has. Is he speaking on behalf of himself or the corporate body?", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. It was said that Mr McNulty was speaking on behalf of the corporate body. Has the corporate body taken a view on the matter? It seems from Mr McNulty's speech that he has. Is he speaking on behalf of himself or the corporate body?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1828E200P487C704880", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacDonald, Margo", "ID": 1828, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margo MacDonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms MacDonald: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 217.0, "ContributionID": 704880, "EditedText": "I am delighted to hear that the wind-tunnel tests are in hand, although I am surprised that they were not in hand a bit earlier. What happens if the tests fail?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am delighted to hear that the wind-tunnel tests are in hand, although I am surprised that they were not in hand a bit earlier. What happens if the tests fail?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C704885", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 227.0, "ContributionID": 704885, "EditedText": "I cannot give way, Robin; I want to proceed. On transport, we have used the expertise of consultants; we have been the repository of much expert opinion. Members may want to discuss such issues and that is the point of the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body. It is an all-party body. We will consult the SNP, the Conservatives and, of course, the Liberals and the other parties. Surely we do not need a committee. Members are genuinely concerned about the issues, but do they imagine for a minute that the technicians, the Scottish Office staff and Mr Miralles's team are sitting twiddling their thumbs day in and day out? From wind-tunnel tests through to the rest, this is on-going work. Why do we not use the existing machinery that this Parliament has set up? We vested our interests as a parliamentary body in a group that is chaired by the Presiding Officer and that includes Des McNulty and other colleagues. Do not members trust them? Are we really saying that we want a two-month delay so that we can bypass the existing procedure? I do not think that we are. Let us have faith in our colleagues, whom we have charged with looking after matters that are responsibility of this proud Parliament. I have heard comments about finance. From day one, I have been a value-for-money politician. I do not want to spend a penny more than is necessary to ensure a quality environment at Holyrood that the Scottish people, not parliamentarians, can be proud of. The SPCB has given us an opportunity to discuss the financial details and to ensure that we have an extensive overview of what is happening. I suggest to some Conservatives that they should embrace that.Andrew Wilson (Central Scotland) (SNP)rose—", "EditedTextHTML": "I cannot give way, Robin; I want to proceed. On transport, we have used the expertise of consultants; we have been the repository of much expert opinion.

Members may want to discuss such issues and that is the point of the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body. It is an all-party body. We will consult the SNP, the Conservatives and, of course, the Liberals and the other parties. Surely we do not need a committee. Members are genuinely concerned about the issues, but do they imagine for a minute that the technicians, the Scottish Office staff and Mr Miralles's team are sitting twiddling their thumbs day in and day out? From wind-tunnel tests through to the rest, this is on-going work.

Why do we not use the existing machinery that this Parliament has set up? We vested our interests as a parliamentary body in a group that is chaired by the Presiding Officer and that includes Des McNulty and other colleagues. Do not members trust them? Are we really saying that we want a two-month delay so that we can bypass the existing procedure? I do not think that we are. Let us have faith in our colleagues, whom we have charged with looking after matters that are responsibility of this proud Parliament.

I have heard comments about finance. From day one, I have been a value-for-money politician. I do not want to spend a penny more than is necessary to ensure a quality environment at Holyrood that the Scottish people, not parliamentarians, can be proud of. The SPCB has given us an opportunity to discuss the financial details and to ensure that we have an extensive overview of what is happening. I suggest to some Conservatives that

they should embrace that.

Andrew Wilson (Central Scotland) (SNP)

rose—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C704887", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 231.0, "ContributionID": 704887, "EditedText": "The building is scheduled for completion in 2001. The timetable is another area in which the SPCB and this Parliament will want to have a role. We have an excellent chamber here, but should we not have an excellent chamber in the new Holyrood Parliament? Do members think that we will go to all this expense just to downgrade the quality of our chamber when we move to Holyrood? Of course we will not. The SPCB is the custodian of our collective interest in this area. Why should not we—from wheelchair access on—ensure that we have the kind of debating chamber that we 129 members want? We are not talking about what Mr Miralles wants— he is doing an excellent job but, as the people who will work in that Parliament, we can have an influence. My simple plea to all members is that they do not think about their party. This is not a party issue. This is about a working Parliament for the people of Scotland—something that they and we can be proud of. A Parliament is a working environment. We are not being paid money to come and look at architecture. We want the best, but I suggest that we should not set up any other machinery. Members want to address these real, practical issues—we can easily let the SPCB look at them. We have access through those members of our parties who are in the SPCB, but we also have direct access to the issues. There has been a lot of distortion about the practical issues. We have the machinery to translate issues of finance, design of the chamber, transport, environment and access into the Parliament that we want. The Scottish people elected us to take that decision, and if we agree to the motion today, we can get on with the job. This is also an opportunity for us to raise our horizons. I came into politics with aspirations for myself—as we all have—but also with aspirations for Scotland. That is why I came back to sit in this Parliament along with colleagues on the nationalist benches and with people such as Donald Dewar. This is about pride. We are right to say that we want this Parliament to be a shop window for the world. Colleagues have said that it is more than a Parliament. It is a place where we can exhibit Scotland. It is a place where people can come. Let us be proud of what we are doing and let us get on with it. We are also talking about place. Donald Gorrie spoke about the hole at the bottom of the Royal Mile—he may live to regret that. The site is a United Nations heritage site on probably the most historic mile in the world, with a castle at the top, a palace at the bottom and other attractions being developed. Is that a hole? Of course not. It is one of the most prestigious sites in the world and we should be proud that we are moving to it. There is also the question of permanence. This is not, as someone said, a Parliament for next week or for the week after, but a Parliament for the next millennium. Continuing with the Ps, this Parliament is about prosperity. We have a great capital city and a great country. The Parliament will be not only a place where parliamentarians or constituents can come and see us, but a shop window for the world. I know that many members are whipped—I regret that—but I ask people such as Andrew Wilson, who has gone public about Holyrood, to say, \"Yes, let's invest in the SPCB and it can look at the practical issues.\" We will be able to march forward with the Scottish people and have pride in what we are doing. I have that pride and so should we all.", "EditedTextHTML": "The building is scheduled for completion in 2001. The timetable is another area in which the SPCB and this Parliament will want to have a role. We have an excellent chamber here, but should we not have an excellent chamber in the new Holyrood Parliament? Do members think that we will go to all this expense just to downgrade the quality of our chamber when we move to Holyrood? Of course we will not. The SPCB is the custodian of our collective interest in this area. Why should not we—from wheelchair access on—ensure that we have the kind of debating chamber that we 129 members want? We are not talking about what Mr Miralles wants— he is doing an excellent job but, as the people who will work in that Parliament, we can have an influence.

My simple plea to all members is that they do not think about their party. This is not a party issue. This is about a working Parliament for the people of Scotland—something that they and we can be proud of. A Parliament is a working environment. We are not being paid money to come and look at architecture. We want the best, but I suggest that we should not set up any other machinery.

Members want to address these real, practical issues—we can easily let the SPCB look at them. We have access through those members of our parties who are in the SPCB, but we also have direct access to the issues. There has been a lot of distortion about the practical issues. We have the machinery to translate issues of finance, design of the chamber, transport, environment and access into the Parliament that we want. The Scottish people elected us to take that decision, and if we agree to the motion today, we can get on with the job.

This is also an opportunity for us to raise our horizons. I came into politics with aspirations for myself—as we all have—but also with aspirations for Scotland. That is why I came back to sit in this Parliament along with colleagues on the nationalist benches and with people such as Donald Dewar.

This is about pride. We are right to say that we want this Parliament to be a shop window for the world. Colleagues have said that it is more than a Parliament. It is a place where we can exhibit Scotland. It is a place where people can come. Let us be proud of what we are doing and let us get on with it.

We are also talking about place. Donald Gorrie spoke about the hole at the bottom of the Royal Mile—he may live to regret that. The site is a United Nations heritage site on probably the most historic mile in the world, with a castle at the top, a palace at the bottom and other attractions being developed. Is that a hole? Of course not. It is one of the most prestigious sites in the world and we should be proud that we are moving to it.

There is also the question of permanence. This is not, as someone said, a Parliament for next week or for the week after, but a Parliament for the next millennium.

Continuing with the Ps, this Parliament is about prosperity. We have a great capital city and a great country. The Parliament will be not only a place where parliamentarians or constituents can come and see us, but a shop window for the world.

I know that many members are whipped—I regret that—but I ask people such as Andrew Wilson, who has gone public about Holyrood, to say, \"Yes, let's invest in the SPCB and it can look at the practical issues.\" We will be able to march forward with the Scottish people and have pride in what we are doing. I have that pride and so should we all.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C704888", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 233.0, "ContributionID": 704888, "EditedText": "That concludes the debate on the Holyrood project. The decision on the motion and the amendment will be taken at 5 o'clock.", "EditedTextHTML": "That concludes the debate on the Holyrood project. The decision on the motion and the amendment will be taken at 5 o'clock.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C704889", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26623, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 235.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 235.0, "ID": 26623, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 236.0, "ContributionID": 704889, "EditedText": "Before we adjourn for lunch, we will take business motion S1M-55 in the name of Mr Tom McCabe on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau. I will take one speech against the motion if anyone indicates that they want to speak.", "EditedTextHTML": "Before we adjourn for lunch, we will take business motion S1M-55 in the name of Mr Tom McCabe on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau. I will take one speech against the motion if anyone indicates that they want to speak.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704895", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26623, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 235.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 235.0, "ID": 26623, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 247.0, "ContributionID": 704895, "EditedText": "On resuming—", "EditedTextHTML": "On resuming—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C704896", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26624, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 248.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 248.0, "ID": 26624, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 249.0, "ContributionID": 704896, "EditedText": "The first item of business this afternoon is question time. As this is our first question time, I shall take a couple of minutes to explain the procedure, particularly for those members who have come from somewhere else, because the procedure is different. I will take questions in the order in which they are printed in the business bulletin. The member who lodged the question will ask the question without departing from the terms as published in the bulletin. The relevant minister will then provide an answer. The member who asked the question may ask a supplementary and may, at my discretion, ask a further supplementary, but no other member may ask a supplementary question during question time until we come to open question time in half an hour. I will explain the procedure of open question time then. I call George Lyon to ask the first question.", "EditedTextHTML": "The first item of business this afternoon is question time. As this is our first question time, I shall take a couple of minutes to explain the procedure, particularly for those members who have come from somewhere else, because the procedure is different.

I will take questions in the order in which they are printed in the business bulletin. The member who lodged the question will ask the question without departing from the terms as published in the bulletin. The relevant minister will then provide an answer. The member who asked the question may ask a supplementary and may, at my discretion, ask a further supplementary, but no other member may ask a supplementary question during question time until we come to open question time in half an hour. I will explain the procedure of open question time then.

I call George Lyon to ask the first question.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C704904", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26624, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 248.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26625, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 251.0, "QuestionHeading": "Farming", "QuestionHeadingID": 26627, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 263.0, "DisplayOrder": 263.0, "ID": 26627, "ParentID": 26625 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ross Finnie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 268.0, "ContributionID": 704904, "EditedText": "We are looking hard at that matter. We have examined a number of schemes. The aim of the Executive is, if we can, to bring forward proposals that are as simple as possible. However, I advise Alex Johnstone that we have to ensure that we comply with the European convention on human rights provisions. I can assure him that this matter is receiving my urgent attention.", "EditedTextHTML": "We are looking hard at that matter. We have examined a number of schemes. The aim of the Executive is, if we can, to bring forward proposals that are as simple as possible. However, I advise Alex Johnstone that we have to ensure that we comply with the European convention on human rights provisions. I can assure him that this matter is receiving my urgent attention.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1862E99P179C704911", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26624, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 248.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26625, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 251.0, "QuestionHeading": "Football Development", "QuestionHeadingID": 26629, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 277.0, "DisplayOrder": 277.0, "ID": 26629, "ParentID": 26625 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Brankin, Rhona", "ID": 1862, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Midlothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Culture and Sport", "SpeakerName": "Rhona Brankin", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Rhona Brankin: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 284.0, "ContributionID": 704911, "EditedText": "I am aware that Norway has invested heavily in indoor and all-weather facilities, and that it has had some recent success. This is a key area that the football partnership and the football task force will examine.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am aware that Norway has invested heavily in indoor and all-weather facilities, and that it has had some recent success. This is a key area that the football partnership and the football task force will examine.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2167E79P155C704915", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26624, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 248.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26625, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 251.0, "QuestionHeading": "Pre-school Education", "QuestionHeadingID": 26630, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 286.0, "DisplayOrder": 286.0, "ID": 26630, "ParentID": 26625 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Peacock, Peter", "ID": 2167, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Peter Peacock", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Peter Peacock: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 293.0, "ContributionID": 704915, "EditedText": "I recognise the close interest that Scott Barrie takes in this matter. I know that from his experience in social work he will be well aware of the different attributes that different providers can bring to nursery education. We are very clear about wanting to have the voluntary and independent sectors actively involved, alongside local authority provision. As Scott Barrie is aware, that is a matter for local authorities, which are responsible for the detailed prior provision that we fully expect. I am confident that they, too, will want an appropriate mix of provision.", "EditedTextHTML": "I recognise the close interest that Scott Barrie takes in this matter. I know that from his experience in social work he will be well aware of the different attributes that different providers can bring to nursery education. We are very clear about wanting to have the voluntary and independent sectors actively involved, alongside local authority provision. As Scott Barrie is aware, that is a matter for local authorities, which are responsible for the detailed prior provision that we fully expect. I am confident that they, too, will want an appropriate mix of provision.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C704919", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26624, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 248.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26625, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 251.0, "QuestionHeading": "Drug Treatment Programmes", "QuestionHeadingID": 26632, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 302.0, "DisplayOrder": 302.0, "ID": 26632, "ParentID": 26625 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "7. Mr Keith Raffan (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 303.0, "ContributionID": 704919, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has to increase the provision of drug treatment programmes in Scotland in the next year. (S1O-8) The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): The provision of drug treatment will be at the heart of the Executive's strategy for dealing with drugs. Spending on drug treatment will be boosted by £6 million over the next three years, bringing annual spending to £11.3 million.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has to increase the provision of drug treatment programmes in Scotland in the next year. (S1O-8) The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): The provision of drug treatment will be at the heart of the Executive's strategy for dealing with drugs. Spending on drug treatment will be boosted by £6 million over the next three years, bringing annual spending to £11.3 million.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C704921", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26624, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 248.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26625, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 251.0, "QuestionHeading": "Drug Treatment Programmes", "QuestionHeadingID": 26632, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 302.0, "DisplayOrder": 302.0, "ID": 26632, "ParentID": 26625 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 307.0, "ContributionID": 704921, "EditedText": "Most members would share Mr Raffan's concern about the need to tackle drugs effectively. We are provided with a great opportunity to do that in this Parliament. There is growing evidence that effective treatment and rehabilitation can have a real impact. We are also committed to building on best practice where it exists, and to dealing with drugs as part of a much wider strategy that includes enforcement and, crucially, prevention: how to avoid people becoming addicted in the first place. We will work together across different departments of the Scottish Executive to ensure that we develop a comprehensive strategy to tackle the issue.", "EditedTextHTML": "Most members would share Mr Raffan's concern about the need to tackle drugs effectively. We are provided with a great opportunity to do that in this Parliament. There is growing evidence that effective treatment and rehabilitation can have a real impact. We are also committed to building on best practice where it exists, and to dealing with drugs as part of a much wider strategy that includes enforcement and, crucially, prevention: how to avoid people becoming addicted in the first place. We will work together across different departments of the Scottish Executive to ensure that we develop a comprehensive strategy to tackle the issue.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C704922", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26624, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 248.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26625, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 251.0, "QuestionHeading": "Drug Treatment Programmes", "QuestionHeadingID": 26632, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 302.0, "DisplayOrder": 302.0, "ID": 26632, "ParentID": 26625 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 309.0, "ContributionID": 704922, "EditedText": "The minister's reply causes me slight concern. There is a need for the reallocation of resources in the total budget to tackle drug misuse.", "EditedTextHTML": "The minister's reply causes me slight concern. There is a need for the reallocation of resources in the total budget to tackle drug misuse.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C704923", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26624, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 248.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26625, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 251.0, "QuestionHeading": "Drug Treatment Programmes", "QuestionHeadingID": 26632, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 302.0, "DisplayOrder": 302.0, "ID": 26632, "ParentID": 26625 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 311.0, "ContributionID": 704923, "EditedText": "Mr Raffan, you must ask a supplementary.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Raffan, you must ask a supplementary.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1931E120P189C704929", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26624, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 248.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26625, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 251.0, "QuestionHeading": "Pre-school Education", "QuestionHeadingID": 26634, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 324.0, "DisplayOrder": 324.0, "ID": 26634, "ParentID": 26625 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Muldoon, Bristow", "ID": 1931, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Livingston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bristow Muldoon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "9. Bristow Muldoon (Livingston) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 325.0, "ContributionID": 704929, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it intends to increase the number of nursery places available for three-year-olds. (S1O-57) The Deputy Minister for Children and Education (Peter Peacock): We expect 60 per cent of all three-year-olds who wish a pre-school place to have one by next session. By 2002, every three-year-old who wishes a place will have one available.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it intends to increase the number of nursery places available for three-year-olds. (S1O-57) The Deputy Minister for Children and Education (Peter Peacock): We expect 60 per cent of all three-year-olds who wish a pre-school place to have one by next session. By 2002, every three-year-old who wishes a place will have one available.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2167E79P155C704931", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26624, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 248.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26625, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 251.0, "QuestionHeading": "Pre-school Education", "QuestionHeadingID": 26634, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 324.0, "DisplayOrder": 324.0, "ID": 26634, "ParentID": 26625 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Peacock, Peter", "ID": 2167, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Peter Peacock", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Peter Peacock: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 329.0, "ContributionID": 704931, "EditedText": "I acknowledge, from conversations that I have had with him, Mr Muldoon's close interest in pre-school education. It is very much part of the Executive's strategy, not just for children but for families and whole communities. It contributes to building an innovative, compassionate, confident and inclusive society. Getting the foundations for education correct and improving attainment from the earliest years is a vital part of our programme. That is one of the reasons why we are seeking this dramatic expansion of provision for three-year-olds.", "EditedTextHTML": "I acknowledge, from conversations that I have had with him, Mr Muldoon's close interest in pre-school education. It is very much part of the Executive's strategy, not just for children but for families and whole communities. It contributes to building an innovative, compassionate, confident and inclusive society. Getting the foundations for education correct and improving attainment from the earliest years is a vital part of our programme. That is one of the reasons why we are seeking this dramatic expansion of provision for three-year-olds.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1840E82P158C704932", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26624, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 248.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26625, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 251.0, "QuestionHeading": "Gaelic-medium Education", "QuestionHeadingID": 26635, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 331.0, "DisplayOrder": 331.0, "ID": 26635, "ParentID": 26625 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macmillan, Maureen", "ID": 1840, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Maureen Macmillan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "10. Maureen Macmillan (Highlands and Islands) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 332.0, "ContributionID": 704932, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has to develop Gaelic-medium education. (S1O-33) The Deputy Minister for Highlands and Islands and Gaelic (Mr Alasdair Morrison): We will be supporting Gaelic-medium education at all levels. We have ring-fenced £300,000 this year for the expansion of Gaelic pre-school education and next year we will be increasing grants for Gaelic education to £2.6 million.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has to develop Gaelic-medium education. (S1O-33) The Deputy Minister for Highlands and Islands and Gaelic (Mr Alasdair Morrison): We will be supporting Gaelic-medium education at all levels. We have ring-fenced £300,000 this year for the expansion of Gaelic pre-school education and next year we will be increasing grants for Gaelic education to £2.6 million.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2033E106P139C704939", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26624, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 248.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26625, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 251.0, "QuestionHeading": "Long-term Care", "QuestionHeadingID": 26636, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 338.0, "DisplayOrder": 338.0, "ID": 26636, "ParentID": 26625 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gray, Iain", "ID": 2033, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Pentlands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Iain Gray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Iain Gray: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 347.0, "ContributionID": 704939, "EditedText": "I have explained to Mrs Ullrich that it is a prime concern that the £5 million over each of the next three years is used to increase respite services to help carers. I have already begun the process of ensuring that we will be able to ascertain that with the local authorities.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have explained to Mrs Ullrich that it is a prime concern that the £5 million over each of the next three years is used to increase respite services to help carers. I have already begun the process of ensuring that we will be able to ascertain that with the local authorities.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C704943", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26624, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 248.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26625, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 251.0, "QuestionHeading": "Bed Blocking", "QuestionHeadingID": 26638, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 356.0, "DisplayOrder": 356.0, "ID": 26638, "ParentID": 26625 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "13. Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 357.0, "ContributionID": 704943, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it has any plans to ensure that the division of responsibilities between local authorities and the national health service for the delivery of health- related social services does not result in bed blocking in the future. (S1O-38) The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): The Executive is committed to more efficient and effective joint working, based on partnership between local authorities, the national health service and the voluntary sector. The Executive will now take forward the plans that are set out in \"Modernising community care: an action plan\", which was published in October.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it has any plans to ensure that the division of responsibilities between local authorities and the national health service for the delivery of health- related social services does not result in bed blocking in the future. (S1O-38) The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon): The Executive is committed to more efficient and effective joint working, based on partnership between local authorities, the national health service and the voluntary sector. The Executive will now take forward the plans that are set out in \"Modernising community care: an action plan\", which was published in October.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1926E190P479C704948", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26624, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 248.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26625, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 251.0, "QuestionHeading": "Roads (Aberdeen)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26639, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 363.0, "DisplayOrder": 363.0, "ID": 26639, "ParentID": 26625 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Adam, Brian", "ID": 1926, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Adam", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Brian Adam: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 368.0, "ContributionID": 704948, "EditedText": "I note that the minister believes that the primary responsibility belongs to the two local authorities. Will she confirm whether the Executive has plans for extensive de-trunking of the network, whether any such plans might have implications for the funding of the proposed route, and whether the Executive has plans to help with the funding of that route?", "EditedTextHTML": "I note that the minister believes that the primary responsibility belongs to the two local authorities. Will she confirm whether the Executive has plans for extensive de-trunking of the network, whether any such plans might have implications for the funding of the proposed route, and whether the Executive has plans to help with the funding of that route?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704954", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26624, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 248.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26625, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 251.0, "QuestionHeading": "Homelessness", "QuestionHeadingID": 26641, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "DisplayOrder": 379.0, "ID": 26641, "ParentID": 26625 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alexander) ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alexander): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 382.0, "ContributionID": 704954, "EditedText": "The green paper on housing, published earlier this year, proposed a review of homelessness in Scotland. I am pleased to be able to announce today that we will establish a review through a steering group led by Jackie Baillie, the Deputy Minister for Social Inclusion, Equality and the Voluntary Sector.", "EditedTextHTML": "The green paper on housing, published earlier this year, proposed a review of homelessness in Scotland. I am pleased to be able to announce today that we will establish a review through a steering group led by Jackie Baillie, the Deputy Minister for Social Inclusion, Equality and the Voluntary Sector.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1876E194P490C704957", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26624, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 248.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26625, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 251.0, "QuestionHeading": "Homelessness", "QuestionHeadingID": 26641, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "DisplayOrder": 379.0, "ID": 26641, "ParentID": 26625 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Marwick, Tricia", "ID": 1876, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tricia Marwick", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tricia Marwick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 388.0, "ContributionID": 704957, "EditedText": "On a point of order, Mr Presiding Officer. I asked the clerks whether I could lodge a question in today's meeting about the housing green paper. I was prevented from doing so, because that is still a matter for the Scottish Office. Can you tell me why the minister is referring to a housing green paper about which I was not allowed to ask a question?", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order, Mr Presiding Officer. I asked the clerks whether I could lodge a question in today's meeting about the housing green paper. I was prevented from doing so, because that is still a matter for the Scottish Office. Can you tell me why the minister is referring to a housing green paper about which I was not allowed to ask a question?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2118E157P454C704960", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26624, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 248.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26625, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 251.0, "QuestionHeading": "Fire Service", "QuestionHeadingID": 26642, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 392.0, "DisplayOrder": 392.0, "ID": 26642, "ParentID": 26625 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Quinan, Mr Lloyd", "ID": 2118, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lloyd Quinan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Quinan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 395.0, "ContributionID": 704960, "EditedText": "Why, then, has the Fire Brigades Union sent to all councillors in Scotland a document that refers to the fact that the Government wants to make changes to the grey book, which has been in force since the end of the second world war as the basis of negotiations with the fire brigades? The union believes, on the basis of a Home Office document, \"Fire Service Pensions Review: a Consultation Document\", that the Government intends to make changes for new members of the fire service. Can Mr Mackay assure me that new members of the fire service will not have reduced pension availability, unlike their colleagues who are currently serving? More important, I draw the minister's attention to the decision made at the Fire Brigades Union's conference on 11 May 1999: \"That this conference rejects the national employers' proposals as contained in their letters of 17 July 1998 and 22 March 1999 to alter the present conditions as contained within the national scheme of conditions of service. Conference therefore agrees\"—", "EditedTextHTML": "Why, then, has the Fire Brigades Union sent to all councillors in Scotland a document that refers to the fact that the Government wants to make changes to the grey book, which has been in force since the end of the

second world war as the basis of negotiations with the fire brigades? The union believes, on the basis of a Home Office document, \"Fire Service Pensions Review: a Consultation Document\", that the Government intends to make changes for new members of the fire service.

Can Mr Mackay assure me that new members of the fire service will not have reduced pension availability, unlike their colleagues who are currently serving? More important, I draw the minister's attention to the decision made at the Fire Brigades Union's conference on 11 May 1999:

\"That this conference rejects the national employers' proposals as contained in their letters of 17 July 1998 and 22 March 1999 to alter the present conditions as contained within the national scheme of conditions of service. Conference therefore agrees\"—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2118E157P454C704962", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26624, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 248.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26625, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 251.0, "QuestionHeading": "Fire Service", "QuestionHeadingID": 26642, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 392.0, "DisplayOrder": 392.0, "ID": 26642, "ParentID": 26625 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Quinan, Mr Lloyd", "ID": 2118, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lloyd Quinan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Quinan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 399.0, "ContributionID": 704962, "EditedText": "I simply want to know whether the minister will apply what Jack Straw, the Home Secretary, intends to apply: the withdrawal of the right to strike for members of the Fire Brigades Union if it implements the decision made at its conference.", "EditedTextHTML": "I simply want to know whether the minister will apply what Jack Straw, the Home Secretary, intends to apply: the withdrawal of the right to strike for members of the Fire Brigades Union if it implements the decision made at its conference.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2134E160P198C704965", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26624, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 248.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26625, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 251.0, "QuestionHeading": "Health Care", "QuestionHeadingID": 26643, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 403.0, "DisplayOrder": 403.0, "ID": 26643, "ParentID": 26625 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McMahon, Michael", "ID": 2134, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton North and Bellshill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael McMahon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McMahon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 406.0, "ContributionID": 704965, "EditedText": "I thank the minister for her answer and I welcome the Executive's commitment to patient-centred health care. Will she give me a specific illustration of how that care can be implemented?", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the minister for her answer and I welcome the Executive's commitment to patient-centred health care. Will she give me a specific illustration of how that care can be implemented?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C704966", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26624, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 248.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26625, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 251.0, "QuestionHeading": "Health Care", "QuestionHeadingID": 26643, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 403.0, "DisplayOrder": 403.0, "ID": 26643, "ParentID": 26625 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 408.0, "ContributionID": 704966, "EditedText": "There are many different ways in which we can put the patient at the heart of the NHS. Some of them are highlighted in the partnership agreement, and they demonstrate how we can give patients the treatment that they need, when they need it and where they want it. They include our commitment to develop the number of one-stop clinics, the 24-hour telephone helpline, NHS Direct, and walk-in walk-out treatment centres. In addition to those services and facilities, we are committed to improving the information that patients get at all stages of their care, and the communication between the patient and the NHS. I am already in discussion with people in the service on how to take forward that agenda, and I will continue that over the next few months.", "EditedTextHTML": "There are many different ways in which we can put the patient at the heart of the NHS. Some of them are highlighted in the partnership agreement, and they demonstrate how we can give patients the treatment that they need, when they need it and where they want it. They include our commitment to develop the number of one-stop clinics, the 24-hour telephone helpline, NHS Direct, and walk-in walk-out treatment centres. In addition to those services and facilities, we are committed to improving the information that patients get at all stages of their care, and the communication between the patient and the NHS. I am already in discussion with people in the service on how to take forward that agenda, and I will continue that over the next few months.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C704967", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26644, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 410.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 410.0, "ID": 26644, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 411.0, "ContributionID": 704967, "EditedText": "We now move to open question time. The format is slightly different, in that once a question has been answered by a minister, any member may ask a supplementary question, indicating a wish to do so by pressing the request button. Supplementary questions must be brief. We have only 15 minutes for this item, which means five minutes per question.", "EditedTextHTML": "We now move to open question time. The format is slightly different, in that once a question has been answered by a minister, any member may ask a supplementary question, indicating a wish to do so by pressing the request button. Supplementary questions must be brief. We have only 15 minutes for this item, which means five minutes per question.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C704973", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26644, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 410.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26645, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Partnership Agreement", "QuestionHeadingID": 26646, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 414.0, "DisplayOrder": 414.0, "ID": 26646, "ParentID": 26645 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 425.0, "ContributionID": 704973, "EditedText": "It is perfectly legitimate for the Scottish National party—or any outside party— to draw attention to diversion. It is one of the factors that must be examined carefully. There are other possibilities for congestion charging which may have a part to play. It is important that, if there is to be a move in the direction of charging, it must be clear that any money raised will be used to improve transport services and infrastructure. When people sit down and think about that, it might be more popular than Mr Salmond would like.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is perfectly legitimate for the Scottish National party—or any outside party— to draw attention to diversion. It is one of the factors that must be examined carefully. There are other possibilities for congestion charging which may have a part to play. It is important that, if there is to be a move in the direction of charging, it must be clear that any money raised will be used to improve transport services and infrastructure. When people sit down and think about that, it might be more popular than Mr Salmond would like.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1973E119P326C704977", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26644, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 410.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26645, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Partnership Agreement", "QuestionHeadingID": 26646, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 414.0, "DisplayOrder": 414.0, "ID": 26646, "ParentID": 26645 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gorrie, Donald", "ID": 1973, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Donald Gorrie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Donald Gorrie (Central Scotland) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 433.0, "ContributionID": 704977, "EditedText": "Will the First Minister indicate what the Executive will do to help young people? The word youth, or young people, does not figure in the lists of ministerial duties. Who will be in charge, and what can he offer young people in this dynamic new Scotland?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the First Minister indicate what the Executive will do to help young people? The word youth, or young people, does not figure in the lists of ministerial duties. Who will be in charge, and what can he offer young people in this dynamic new

Scotland?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C704980", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26644, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 410.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26645, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Partnership Agreement", "QuestionHeadingID": 26646, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 414.0, "DisplayOrder": 414.0, "ID": 26646, "ParentID": 26645 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 439.0, "ContributionID": 704980, "EditedText": "Mr Sheridan is indulging in wishful thinking, because there is no such amnesty in England and Wales. I take the view that when people owe money, and when money is due, that debt should be met. I have no intention of introducing an amnesty. There are difficulties about collecting, and other principles of law apply, but local government is right to recover due debt. If it does not do so, there will be an additional burden on others in society—I do not include Mr Sheridan—who have been meeting their dues.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Sheridan is indulging in wishful thinking, because there is no such amnesty in England and Wales. I take the view that when people owe money, and when money is due, that debt should be met. I have no intention of introducing an amnesty. There are difficulties about collecting, and other principles of law apply, but local government is right to recover due debt. If it does not do so, there will be an additional burden on others in society—I do not include Mr Sheridan—who have been meeting their dues.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C704984", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26644, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 410.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26645, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Tax", "QuestionHeadingID": 26647, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 441.0, "DisplayOrder": 441.0, "ID": 26647, "ParentID": 26645 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 448.0, "ContributionID": 704984, "EditedText": "The First Minister seems to be following the lead given by the Prime Minister, by—contrary to election pledges—increasing the tax burden on people resident in Scotland, and the United Kingdom as a whole. He seems to be confirming that the legislation is designed to ensure that local authorities in Scotland are turned into the Parliament's tax gatherers. On the subject of local authorities, given the First Minister's desire to be a friend to the business community, will he categorically rule out that during the lifetime of the Parliament, local authorities will be given sole or partial discretion to set business rates—a measure to which the Scottish business community is wholly and rightly opposed?", "EditedTextHTML": "The First Minister seems to be following the lead given by the Prime Minister, by—contrary to election pledges—increasing the tax burden on people resident in Scotland, and the United Kingdom as a whole. He seems to be confirming that the legislation is designed to ensure that local authorities in Scotland are turned into the Parliament's tax gatherers.

On the subject of local authorities, given the First Minister's desire to be a friend to the business community, will he categorically rule out that during the lifetime of the Parliament, local authorities will be given sole or partial discretion to set business rates—a measure to which the Scottish business community is wholly and rightly opposed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C704991", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26644, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 410.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26645, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Children and Young People", "QuestionHeadingID": 26648, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 456.0, "DisplayOrder": 456.0, "ID": 26648, "ParentID": 26645 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Galbraith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 463.0, "ContributionID": 704991, "EditedText": "First, I want to recognise the work that Cathy has done with young people and children. She worked for a number of years with Who Cares? Scotland, an organisation that looks after a particularly vulnerable group. Her work has been a credit to her and an example to us all. The fact that she did that work for less than she is earning here is also to her credit and should not be sneered at by other individuals in newspaper articles. People who do real jobs with real people in the real world do not need lessons from people who do not possess such qualities. Looking after vulnerable kids is important, as are their views. A number of legislative measures have been taken recently and guidelines have been produced—dealing with the social justice system, the criminal justice system, local authorities and the social work services—on how their views can be taken into account. There are still some problems. If Cathy Jamieson wishes, we can discuss the matter to see how we can take it forward.", "EditedTextHTML": "First, I want to recognise the work that Cathy has done with young people and children. She worked for a number of years with Who Cares? Scotland, an organisation that looks after a particularly vulnerable group. Her work has been a credit to her and an example to us all. The fact that she did that work for less than she is earning here is also to her credit and should not be sneered at by other individuals in newspaper articles. People who do real jobs with real people in the real world do not need lessons from people who do not possess such qualities.

Looking after vulnerable kids is important, as are their views. A number of legislative measures have been taken recently and guidelines have been produced—dealing with the social justice system, the criminal justice system, local authorities and the social work services—on how their views can be taken into account. There are still some problems. If Cathy Jamieson wishes, we can discuss the matter to see how we can take it forward.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C704994", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26644, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 410.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26645, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Children and Young People", "QuestionHeadingID": 26648, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 456.0, "DisplayOrder": 456.0, "ID": 26648, "ParentID": 26645 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 469.0, "ContributionID": 704994, "EditedText": "That brings our first question time to an end.", "EditedTextHTML": "That brings our first question time to an end.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C704997", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Alex Salmond (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 477.0, "ContributionID": 704997, "EditedText": "It is true that those concerns were apparent in the election campaign. Jim and I took part in many debates and, in each one, he said that if the Labour party did not have a majority in the chamber, tuition fees would be abolished. Does he not think it was wrong to say that during the campaign if he did not intend to carry it through?", "EditedTextHTML": "It is true that those concerns were apparent in the election campaign. Jim and I took part in many debates and, in each one, he said that if the Labour party did not have a majority in the chamber, tuition fees would be abolished. Does he not think it was wrong to say that during the campaign if he did not intend to carry it through?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C704999", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie (Lothians) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 481.0, "ContributionID": 704999, "EditedText": "The Conservative party made its case to the biggest committee of inquiry that was possible: the electorate, who made their decision when casting their votes for us. Having made such great play of the £80 million for education that was extracted in the coalition negotiations, will the minister tell us why half of that sum was not deployed to fulfil his promise to abolish tuition fees, but was instead spent on areas that he did not describe as non-negotiable?", "EditedTextHTML": "The Conservative party made its case to the biggest committee of inquiry that was possible: the electorate, who made their decision when casting their votes for us.

Having made such great play of the £80 million for education that was extracted in the coalition negotiations, will the minister tell us why half of that sum was not deployed to fulfil his promise to abolish tuition fees, but was instead spent on areas that he did not describe as non-negotiable?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C705000", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 483.0, "ContributionID": 705000, "EditedText": "Anyone who heard what we said in the campaign knew that investment in education was our most important priority. I am proud that we have managed to secure £80 million of extra investment in education that will help to tackle student poverty in a number of ways: the £9 million three-year pilot scheme to encourage students from low-income families to stay on at school with a view to going on to higher education; the loan funding for mature part-time students who are on low incomes; and the increase in access funds to £14 million a year, which will relieve the hardships that are suffered by the most disadvantaged students. We said that education was our main priority and we have helped to deliver more resources to education. I welcome the amendment's supporters' recent conversion to the proposal of a committee of inquiry into student funding and student hardship. No doubt the representations that they have received from people who are genuinely concerned about the financial position of students have had an effect on them, albeit belatedly. They may be willing to recognise that the commitment to a committee of inquiry, which was expressed in the partnership agreement document, was a significant step forward. The committee of inquiry that will examine the issues of tuition fees and student hardship will be very different from its Westminster counterparts. If this motion is carried, the committee will proceed with the approval and authority of this Parliament and it will report to this Parliament. The role and importance of the Parliament in progressing this issue is vital. It is also important when we look at the terms of the opposition amendment. We must remember that this is not a debating society; it is a Parliament. Therefore, when the amendment in the name of Mr Swinney says that we must \"bring forward to the Parliament proposals for the abolition of tuition fees\", we are entitled to note that motions and amendments must be clear and unambiguous. Our position, as I have stated, is that we want all Scottish students to have their fees paid by the Government, without interfering with the funding of the universities. The amendment gives the Executive a bald instruction to abolish tuition fees—not to restore the previous system, in which students were funded by the state. It would remove tens of millions of pounds from Scottish higher education at a stroke. Where would that leave efforts to improve quality and extend access? The amendment would also mean that this Parliament should abolish tuition fees for all students who study in Scotland, including those from England and Wales. Scottish students studying in other parts of the United Kingdom would still have to pay tuition fees. That, expressly, was not part of the Liberal Democrat manifesto. The Opposition amendment is deeply flawed. It bears the hallmark of a political tactic, rather than a substantial parliamentary motion addressing an important issue that we must get right. If I may use the language of Mr McLetchie, which so embellished our election campaign, it smacks more of Mr McLetchie snuggling up to Salmond on a sofa than to the serious politics that the issue requires. In contrast, we have indicated that we want to work with the organisations that care most about higher and further education in Scotland on the issue of tuition fees and student support. We want to work with organisations such as the Committee of Scottish Higher Education Principals, the Association of Scottish Colleges, the Association of University Teachers and the National Union of Students in Scotland, all of which support the setting up of the independent inquiry. Indeed, the National Union of Students in Scotland also supports the abolition of tuition fees. Unlike the Dearing inquiry, which focused on the purpose, shape and funding of higher education, the focus of this inquiry is the position of part-time and full-time students in both higher and further education. Many people in our universities and further education colleges believe that the Dearing and Garrick reports neglected that area. The entire system, including the payment of tuition fees, requires an overhaul. Much of the system goes back to the 1960s, when social conditions and the number of people who went into universities were quite different from what they are today. We need to take account of the fact that patterns of study have changed since many of us were students. Today, about half of the people entering further and higher education are mature students, a fact that—with respect—the saltire awards proposed by the Conservative party do not reflect. Mature students have different needs from school leavers. Many people choose to combine work with study. The support mechanism—in terms of help with fees, books and exam charges—has never been properly addressed in relation to mature students. That is why I commend the committee of inquiry. If the motion is passed, the Executive is anxious to consult the other parties fully, and as a matter of urgency, on the details of the committee. My view is that the committee should be asked to work intensively and to report by the end of the year. Clearly, we will need to find a suitably independent chair, without any party allegiance. We are keen that the membership of the committee should be wide enough to bring a wide range of experience to bear. Parties will be asked for their views and suggestions and I hope that we will all agree that people should be chosen to serve on the committee on account of their expertise, rather than on account of partisan loyalty. The committee's terms of reference will also be a matter for discussion although, as the motion makes clear, it should encompass tuition fees and all student finance, for part-time and full-time students, in both further and higher education. I also hope that we can reach agreement that the committee should take account of the fact that we need to maintain both quality and standards in our higher and further education institutions. We also need to recognise the fact that many students in Scotland, particularly in our universities, come from outside Scotland. Finally, we do not propose to constrain the committee, but the Parliament would expect to be made aware of the costs of the options and recommendations. No person or party is being asked to make any concession on their position regarding tuition fees in agreeing to establish the committee. This proposal represents the most effective and immediate way of taking forward these crucial issues. Moreover, by consulting and by involving people with an interest, people with a knowledge, people with a commitment to students and people with a commitment to further and higher education, we will give real substance to what all the parties have proclaimed. The Parliament must consult and listen. As the former president of the AUT, Mr David Jago, said: \"Seeking a quick fix on this issue would be a betrayal of Scotland's aspirations for a new politics, in which everyone can have a say.\" I hope that all parties will support the establishment of the committee of inquiry and state their case to it. That is what the Liberal Democrats will do. Although we intend the process to provide a sound basis for an agreed way forward, the partnership agreement expressly acknowledges that we are not bound in advance and, as Liberal Democrats, we are free to come to our own view on the committee's conclusions. I may be wrong, but I rather suspect that some speeches in this debate may refer to the election manifesto.", "EditedTextHTML": "Anyone who heard what we said in the campaign knew that investment in education was our most important priority. I am proud that we have managed to secure £80 million of extra investment in education that will help to tackle student poverty in a number of ways: the £9 million three-year pilot scheme to encourage students from low-income families to stay on at school with a view to going on to higher education; the loan funding for mature part-time students who are on low incomes; and the increase in access funds to £14 million a year, which will relieve the hardships that are suffered by the most disadvantaged students.

We said that education was our main priority and we have helped to deliver more resources to education.

I welcome the amendment's supporters' recent conversion to the proposal of a committee of inquiry into student funding and student hardship. No doubt the representations that they have received from people who are genuinely concerned about the financial position of students have had an effect on them, albeit belatedly. They may be willing to recognise that the commitment to a committee of inquiry, which was expressed in the partnership agreement document, was a significant step forward.

The committee of inquiry that will examine the issues of tuition fees and student hardship will be very different from its Westminster counterparts. If this motion is carried, the committee will proceed with the approval and authority of this Parliament and it will report to this Parliament. The role and importance of the Parliament in progressing this issue is vital. It is also important when we look at the terms of the opposition amendment.

We must remember that this is not a debating society; it is a Parliament. Therefore, when the amendment in the name of Mr Swinney says that we must

\"bring forward to the Parliament proposals for the abolition of tuition fees\", we are entitled to note that motions and amendments must be clear and unambiguous.

Our position, as I have stated, is that we want all Scottish students to have their fees paid by the Government, without interfering with the funding of the universities.

The amendment gives the Executive a bald instruction to abolish tuition fees—not to restore the previous system, in which students were funded by the state. It would remove tens of millions of pounds from Scottish higher education at a stroke. Where would that leave efforts to improve quality and extend access?

The amendment would also mean that this Parliament should abolish tuition fees for all students who study in Scotland, including those from England and Wales. Scottish students studying in other parts of the United Kingdom would still have to pay tuition fees. That, expressly, was not part of the Liberal Democrat manifesto.

The Opposition amendment is deeply flawed. It bears the hallmark of a political tactic, rather than a substantial parliamentary motion addressing an important issue that we must get right. If I may use the language of Mr McLetchie, which so embellished our election campaign, it smacks more of Mr McLetchie snuggling up to Salmond on a sofa than to the serious politics that the issue requires.

In contrast, we have indicated that we want to work with the organisations that care most about higher and further education in Scotland on the issue of tuition fees and student support. We want to work with organisations such as the Committee of Scottish Higher Education Principals, the Association of Scottish Colleges, the Association of University Teachers and the National Union of Students in Scotland, all of which support the setting up of the independent inquiry. Indeed, the National Union of Students in Scotland also supports the abolition of tuition fees.

Unlike the Dearing inquiry, which focused on the purpose, shape and funding of higher education, the focus of this inquiry is the position of part-time and full-time students in both higher and further education. Many people in our universities and further education colleges believe that the Dearing and Garrick reports neglected that area. The entire system, including the payment of tuition fees, requires an overhaul.

Much of the system goes back to the 1960s, when social conditions and the number of people who went into universities were quite different from what they are today. We need to take account of the fact that patterns of study have changed since many of us were students. Today, about half of the people entering further and higher education are mature students, a fact that—with respect—the saltire awards proposed by the Conservative party do not reflect.

Mature students have different needs from school leavers. Many people choose to combine work with study. The support mechanism—in terms of help with fees, books and exam charges—has never been properly addressed in

relation to mature students. That is why I commend the committee of inquiry.

If the motion is passed, the Executive is anxious to consult the other parties fully, and as a matter of urgency, on the details of the committee. My view is that the committee should be asked to work intensively and to report by the end of the year. Clearly, we will need to find a suitably independent chair, without any party allegiance. We are keen that the membership of the committee should be wide enough to bring a wide range of experience to bear.

Parties will be asked for their views and suggestions and I hope that we will all agree that people should be chosen to serve on the committee on account of their expertise, rather than on account of partisan loyalty. The committee's terms of reference will also be a matter for discussion although, as the motion makes clear, it should encompass tuition fees and all student finance, for part-time and full-time students, in both further and higher education.

I also hope that we can reach agreement that the committee should take account of the fact that we need to maintain both quality and standards in our higher and further education institutions. We also need to recognise the fact that many students in Scotland, particularly in our universities, come from outside Scotland. Finally, we do not propose to constrain the committee, but the Parliament would expect to be made aware of the costs of the options and recommendations.

No person or party is being asked to make any concession on their position regarding tuition fees in agreeing to establish the committee. This proposal represents the most effective and immediate way of taking forward these crucial issues. Moreover, by consulting and by involving people with an interest, people with a knowledge, people with a commitment to students and people with a commitment to further and higher education, we will give real substance to what all the parties have proclaimed. The Parliament must consult and listen. As the former president of the AUT, Mr David Jago, said:

\"Seeking a quick fix on this issue would be a betrayal of Scotland's aspirations for a new politics, in which everyone can have a say.\"

I hope that all parties will support the establishment of the committee of inquiry and state their case to it. That is what the Liberal Democrats will do. Although we intend the process to provide a sound basis for an agreed way forward, the partnership agreement expressly acknowledges that we are not bound in advance and, as Liberal Democrats, we are free to come to our own view on the committee's conclusions.

I may be wrong, but I rather suspect that some speeches in this debate may refer to the election manifesto.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C705001", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con) rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 485.0, "ContributionID": 705001, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C705002", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 487.0, "ContributionID": 705002, "EditedText": "I am just winding up, Mr Gallie.I have already referred to our manifesto position on tuition fees. It is worth reminding the Parliament that our manifesto also emphasised the importance of widening access to further and higher education and of attacking student poverty. The measures that I have referred to in this speech show that we have made a start. The committee of inquiry will give us an opportunity to give further immediate consideration to these important issues. I commend the motion to the Parliament. I move,That the Parliament recognises the widespread opposition to tuition fees, the growing importance of lifelong learning to Scotland's society and economy and the wide range of circumstances of those engaged in lifelong learning; and calls upon the Scottish Executive once established to appoint urgently a committee of inquiry on the issue of tuition fees and financial support for those participating, part-time or full-time, in further and higher education; the terms of reference, time scale and membership of that committee to be approved by and its report laid before the Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am just winding up, Mr Gallie.

I have already referred to our manifesto position on tuition fees. It is worth reminding the Parliament that our manifesto also emphasised the importance of widening access to further and higher education and of attacking student poverty. The measures that I have referred to in this speech show that we have made a start. The committee of inquiry will give us an opportunity to give further immediate consideration to these important issues. I commend the motion to the Parliament.

I move,

That the Parliament recognises the widespread opposition to tuition fees, the growing importance of lifelong learning to Scotland's society and economy and the wide range of circumstances of those engaged in lifelong learning; and calls upon the Scottish Executive once established to appoint urgently a committee of inquiry on the issue of tuition fees and financial support for those participating, part-time or full-time, in further and higher education; the terms of reference, time scale and membership of that committee to be approved by and its report laid before the Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C705009", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 502.0, "ContributionID": 705009, "EditedText": "To clear up any dispute, I said that the committee would have to identify what the options would cost, not where the money was coming from.", "EditedTextHTML": "To clear up any dispute, I said that the committee would have to identify what the

options would cost, not where the money was coming from.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C705011", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning (Henry McLeish): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 506.0, "ContributionID": 705011, "EditedText": "I want to correct a fundamental misconception. It should be made clear that the committee that we want to establish—I hope with all-party support—will look at tuition fees and student funding, with an independent committee investigating costed options. It will not be a review committee that is set up with abolishing tuition fees as its terms of reference.", "EditedTextHTML": "I want to correct a fundamental misconception. It should be made clear that the committee that we want to establish—I hope with all-party support—will look at tuition fees and student funding, with an independent committee investigating costed options. It will not be a review committee that is set up with abolishing tuition fees as its terms of reference.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C705013", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 510.0, "ContributionID": 705013, "EditedText": "I will now open the debate to members. As a number of members have expressed a wish to speak, the time limit for speeches will be four minutes. That may be reviewed later, but I ask members to stick to their time.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will now open the debate to members. As a number of members have expressed a wish to speak, the time limit for speeches will be four minutes. That may be reviewed later, but I ask members to stick to their time.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C705016", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Monteith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 517.0, "ContributionID": 705016, "EditedText": "Can Mr Lyon give one of those 13 examples?", "EditedTextHTML": "Can Mr Lyon give one of those 13 examples?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1873E89P171C705022", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jackson, Dr Sylvia", "ID": 1873, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Stirling" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sylvia Jackson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Sylvia Jackson (Stirling) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 530.0, "ContributionID": 705022, "EditedText": "One of the key themes surrounding the establishment of the Scottish Parliament was the emergence of a new kind of politics: where we would put aside party political posturing and look rationally at the arguments before us; where we would recognise genuine policy differences where they existed; but where we would seek to develop consensus around the priorities of the people of Scotland. Today's debate is one of the first tests of that new kind of politics. Will we address the financial support that should be offered to students on the basis of party political slogans, and on the basis of policies developed hastily during an election campaign in order to provide a media soundbite, or will we rationally examine the issues that are involved? Let us be in no doubt that those who work and study in higher education want us to take the latter road. That is clear from the briefings of the Association of University Teachers and the Committee of Scottish Higher Education Principals. I quote from the AUT briefing: \"It will be all too easy to get it wrong—to rush into a quick fix that creates new anomalies or leaves a massive hole in the Parliament's budget. Getting it wrong will discredit the Parliament and disrupt higher education. Getting it right will take a bit longer but in the process we can prove that the new Parliament offers a new, more robust approach to resolving difficult issues and building a real consensus.\" The AUT, COSHEP and—as we have mentioned—the National Union of Students in Scotland all recognise the complexities of the issues. They have argued consistently for an informed debate that takes into account all the available evidence and recognises that what seems like a simple and straightforward solution is rarely that. If this Parliament genuinely believes in the new politics, it must put aside short-term party political expediency and support the establishment of a committee of inquiry. In setting up a committee of inquiry, we must be clear about the objectives that we want it to address. Let me suggest two objectives that I believe should be paramount. First, nothing must be done that threatens the world-class reputation of Scottish higher education. That reputation has already been mentioned by Mr Wallace and is well deserved. Scotland's academics rank third in the world for the number of research publications per head of the population. Scottish universities attract students from more than 100 countries. That means that if the committee of inquiry recommends additional financial support, it must do so as part of a package of additional resources for higher education. To do otherwise would be a disaster. The Labour Government has started to repair the underfunding that resulted from 18 years of Tory rule, yet much remains to be done. One of the consequences of the historical underfunding is that salaries have fallen well below those of comparable professions. The AUT reports that there is a 36 per cent slippage in pay. Next week the Bett commission on pay in higher education will report. It is already clear that it will recommend significant increases, but universities and colleges will not be able to meet those recommendations without increased financial support. What is critical is that greater financial support for students cannot be bought by reducing support for institutions. In helping students to pay the bill, we must not reduce the value of what they buy.", "EditedTextHTML": "One of the key themes surrounding the establishment of the Scottish Parliament was the emergence of a new kind of politics: where we would put aside party

political posturing and look rationally at the arguments before us; where we would recognise genuine policy differences where they existed; but where we would seek to develop consensus around the priorities of the people of Scotland. Today's debate is one of the first tests of that new kind of politics.

Will we address the financial support that should be offered to students on the basis of party political slogans, and on the basis of policies developed hastily during an election campaign in order to provide a media soundbite, or will we rationally examine the issues that are involved? Let us be in no doubt that those who work and study in higher education want us to take the latter road.

That is clear from the briefings of the Association of University Teachers and the Committee of Scottish Higher Education Principals. I quote from the AUT briefing:

\"It will be all too easy to get it wrong—to rush into a quick fix that creates new anomalies or leaves a massive hole in the Parliament's budget. Getting it wrong will discredit the Parliament and disrupt higher education. Getting it right will take a bit longer but in the process we can prove that the new Parliament offers a new, more robust approach to resolving difficult issues and building a real consensus.\"

The AUT, COSHEP and—as we have mentioned—the National Union of Students in Scotland all recognise the complexities of the issues. They have argued consistently for an informed debate that takes into account all the available evidence and recognises that what seems like a simple and straightforward solution is rarely that. If this Parliament genuinely believes in the new politics, it must put aside short-term party political expediency and support the establishment of a committee of inquiry.

In setting up a committee of inquiry, we must be clear about the objectives that we want it to address. Let me suggest two objectives that I believe should be paramount. First, nothing must be done that threatens the world-class reputation of Scottish higher education. That reputation has already been mentioned by Mr Wallace and is well deserved. Scotland's academics rank third in the world for the number of research publications per head of the population. Scottish universities attract students from more than 100 countries. That means that if the committee of inquiry recommends additional financial support, it must do so as part of a package of additional resources for higher education. To do otherwise would be a disaster.

The Labour Government has started to repair the underfunding that resulted from 18 years of Tory rule, yet much remains to be done. One of the consequences of the historical underfunding is that salaries have fallen well below those of comparable professions. The AUT reports that there is a 36 per cent slippage in pay. Next week the Bett commission on pay in higher education will report. It is already clear that it will recommend significant increases, but universities and colleges will not be able to meet those recommendations without increased financial support.

What is critical is that greater financial support for students cannot be bought by reducing support for institutions. In helping students to pay the bill, we must not reduce the value of what they buy.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C705025", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 536.0, "ContributionID": 705025, "EditedText": "Could you do so quickly, please?", "EditedTextHTML": "Could you do so quickly, please?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1873E89P171C705026", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jackson, Dr Sylvia", "ID": 1873, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Stirling" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sylvia Jackson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Jackson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 538.0, "ContributionID": 705026, "EditedText": "The second objective is to broaden participation. It cannot be acceptable that 80 per cent of children from social class 1 go to university, but only 14 per cent of social class 5 do. It is not a new problem. It is as old as higher education. One of the great disappointments of the expansion of higher education in the 1990s is that the proportion of students from the lower socioeconomic classes has changed little.", "EditedTextHTML": "The second objective is to broaden participation. It cannot be acceptable that 80 per cent of children from social class 1 go to university, but only 14 per cent of social class 5 do. It is not a new problem. It is as old as higher education. One of the great disappointments of the expansion of higher education in the 1990s is that the proportion of students from the lower socioeconomic classes has changed little.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1873E89P171C705028", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jackson, Dr Sylvia", "ID": 1873, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Stirling" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sylvia Jackson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Jackson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 542.0, "ContributionID": 705028, "EditedText": "The abolition of this form of educational apartheid is a social and an economic priority. Finally, for me grants and loans are a much more important issue than tuition fees, but I am happy for that argument to be tested by a committee of inquiry. That is why I support the unamended motion and why I urge other members to do the same.", "EditedTextHTML": "The abolition of this form of educational apartheid is a social and an economic priority.

Finally, for me grants and loans are a much more important issue than tuition fees, but I am happy for that argument to be tested by a committee of inquiry. That is why I support the unamended motion and why I urge other members to do the same.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C705030", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 547.0, "ContributionID": 705030, "EditedText": "When tuition fees were introduced by the Westminster Government, Mr Welsh asked it to wait and to allow the Scottish Parliament to look at the proposals in detail before their introduction.", "EditedTextHTML": "When tuition fees were introduced by the Westminster Government, Mr Welsh asked it to wait and to allow the Scottish Parliament to look at the proposals in detail before their introduction.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1906E278P355C705031", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Welsh, Andrew", "ID": 1906, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Angus" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Welsh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Welsh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 549.0, "ContributionID": 705031, "EditedText": "Now that we have a Scottish Parliament, we should take action on that. That is the whole point and that is why we have a Scottish system. To put Mr Lyon's comments in context, the measure was put through by English ministers and there was hardly a Scot at the debates. I attended them all and opposed tuition fees at every opportunity—on my own. That was the problem. The matter should be left to the Scottish Parliament, where we can take sensible decisions with Scottish needs and aspirations in mind.", "EditedTextHTML": "Now that we have a Scottish Parliament, we should take action on that. That is the whole point and that is why we have a Scottish system. To put Mr Lyon's comments in context, the measure was put through by English ministers and there was hardly a Scot at the debates. I attended them all and opposed tuition fees at every opportunity—on my own. That was the problem.

The matter should be left to the Scottish Parliament, where we can take sensible decisions with Scottish needs and aspirations in mind.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1906E278P355C705035", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Welsh, Andrew", "ID": 1906, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Angus" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Welsh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Welsh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 557.0, "ContributionID": 705035, "EditedText": "Student organisations and educational institutions are right to be wary about the future as long as this system of tuition fees remains in place. I never want to see an education system in Scotland where credit ratings count more than grade averages, where bank balances count more than qualifications or where pay-asyou- learn is in a two-tier system that is based on ability to pay rather than ability to learn. We must trust our traditional Scottish education system. For those reasons and many others, I opposed tuition fees at every opportunity in the Westminster Parliament, and I oppose them again here. The difference is that here we can do something about it. This Parliament should not just recognise the \"widespread opposition to tuition fees\", as stated in the motion; it should take action to abolish tuition fees, and our education system should expect nothing less.", "EditedTextHTML": "Student organisations and educational institutions are right to be wary about the future as long as this system of tuition fees remains in place. I never want to see an education system in Scotland where credit ratings count more than grade averages, where bank balances count more than qualifications or where pay-asyou- learn is in a two-tier system that is based on ability to pay rather than ability to learn. We must trust our traditional Scottish education system.

For those reasons and many others, I opposed tuition fees at every opportunity in the Westminster Parliament, and I oppose them again here. The difference is that here we can do something about it. This Parliament should not just recognise the

\"widespread opposition to tuition fees\", as stated in the motion; it should take action to abolish tuition fees, and our education system should expect nothing less.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C705036", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 559.0, "ContributionID": 705036, "EditedText": "Members have been exceeding the four-minute speaking time quite considerably. I ask them to bear that in mind as they proceed. If members cannot keep to the time limit, I will have to reduce it, which I am sure no one wants. Similarly, I ask members to make interventions as brief as possible.", "EditedTextHTML": "Members have been exceeding the four-minute speaking time quite considerably. I ask them to bear that in mind as they proceed. If members cannot keep to the

time limit, I will have to reduce it, which I am sure no one wants. Similarly, I ask members to make interventions as brief as possible.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1832E96P195C705037", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Livingstone, Marilyn", "ID": 1832, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Kirkcaldy" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Marilyn Livingstone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Marilyn Livingstone (Kirkcaldy) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 562.0, "ContributionID": 705037, "EditedText": "I will try to be brief. I welcome the opportunity to speak in this important debate and welcome the independent committee of inquiry proposed by the Deputy First Minister. I cannot understand the opposition to the motion. Now that the fervour of the election is over, I had hoped that all members would accept that it is inappropriate to debate student fees in isolation. We need a much wider and comprehensive debate on the funding of and access to post-16 education and training.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will try to be brief. I welcome the opportunity to speak in this important debate and welcome the independent committee of inquiry proposed by the Deputy First Minister.

I cannot understand the opposition to the motion. Now that the fervour of the election is over, I had hoped that all members would accept that it is inappropriate to debate student fees in isolation. We need a much wider and comprehensive debate on the funding of and access to post-16 education and training.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1832E96P195C705039", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Livingstone, Marilyn", "ID": 1832, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Kirkcaldy" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Marilyn Livingstone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Marilyn Livingstone: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 566.0, "ContributionID": 705039, "EditedText": "Setting up an independent inquiry is taking on board the views of the Scottish people. For the past 16 years, I have worked in further and higher education in Fife College of Further and Higher Education in Kirkcaldy. I have firsthand experience of the issues that affect the sector and the students it serves. Underfunding has been inherent in further and higher education during 18 years of Conservative government; there has been capping at all levels of education. We are redressing and will continue to redress underfunding. In response to a question that I asked at question time, the Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning intimated that there would be £493 million additional funding for further and higher education. We must also address qualitative as well as quantitative issues. We need to address support and funding for full- time and part-time students and for students with special learning needs. I am interested in the issue of widening access. Our goal must be to raise skills levels and to assist young people and those who are not so young to achieve the highest and, most important, the most appropriate qualifications. For many members, lifelong learning is now an accepted principle. We must develop that principle with nothing less than a radical and lasting change in the attitude to learning and education among all the Scottish people. If we achieve our vision, we will be able to prevent the creation of the trap of social exclusion through low attainment, unemployment or low- skilled, low-paid employment, and the subsequent disaffection that can ensue. Most important—and this is why I support the committee of inquiry—the challenge for us is that there will be no single solution to overcoming the problems of barriers to access, underachievement, non-participation and student hardship. Our goal must be to ensure that our further and higher education training provision meets the differing needs of the Scottish people. I agree with Dr Jackson that student funding is of paramount importance. In our debate and in the inquiry, I ask people not to forget further education. Further education is crucial and is often the step to higher education and higher skills as well as a route out of poverty. I am pleased that it features in the inquiry and look forward to the results. We need a comprehensive and holistic approach if we are to provide everyone with the opportunity to reach their potential. I ask members to support the comprehensive and wide-ranging review proposed by Jim Wallace.", "EditedTextHTML": "Setting up an independent inquiry is taking on board the views of the Scottish people.

For the past 16 years, I have worked in further and higher education in Fife College of Further and Higher Education in Kirkcaldy. I have firsthand experience of the issues that affect the sector and the students it serves.

Underfunding has been inherent in further and higher education during 18 years of Conservative government; there has been capping at all levels of education. We are redressing and will continue to redress underfunding. In response to a question that I asked at question time, the Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning intimated that there would be £493 million additional funding for further and higher education. We must also address qualitative as well as quantitative issues. We need to address support and funding for full- time and part-time students and for students with special learning needs.

I am interested in the issue of widening access. Our goal must be to raise skills levels and to assist young people and those who are not so young to achieve the highest and, most important, the most appropriate qualifications. For many members, lifelong learning is now an accepted principle. We must develop that principle with nothing less than a radical and lasting change in the attitude to learning and education among all the Scottish people.

If we achieve our vision, we will be able to prevent the creation of the trap of social exclusion through low attainment, unemployment or low- skilled, low-paid employment, and the subsequent disaffection that can ensue. Most important—and this is why I support the committee of inquiry—the challenge for us is that there will be no single solution to overcoming the problems of barriers to access, underachievement, non-participation and student hardship. Our goal must be to ensure that our further and higher education training provision meets the differing needs of the Scottish people. I agree with Dr Jackson that student funding is of paramount importance.

In our debate and in the inquiry, I ask people not to forget further education. Further education is crucial and is often the step to higher education and higher skills as well as a route out of poverty. I am pleased that it features in the inquiry and look forward to the results.

We need a comprehensive and holistic approach if we are to provide everyone with the opportunity to reach their potential. I ask members to support the comprehensive and wide-ranging review proposed by Jim Wallace.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2140E187P335C705040", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Rumbles, Mike", "ID": 2140, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Rumbles", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Mike Rumbles (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 569.0, "ContributionID": 705040, "EditedText": "Throughout my working life of the past 20 years I have been involved in adult education, the last four or five years of which were at Aberdeen College of Further Education. I do not need anyone to tell me of the importance of abolishing student tuition fees. I am committed to their abolition, and when I have the first practical chance to do so, I will. I am interested in practical politics. The hypocrisy and cant that I have heard today from the Conservative National party about its amendment is unbelievable. The Conservatives started off the process of attacking students in our further and higher education colleges. I am afraid that, by introducing tuition fees, the Labour Government at Westminster has also failed students miserably. As Jim Wallace rightly pointed out, nothing can be done until 2000-01. We cannot abolish tuition fees now because that would cause utter chaos in our further and higher education colleges—I can tell members that because of my experience. The amendment will not help students. It is impractical in every way and I will not be voting for it. However, I repeat that at the first practical opportunity I will be voting—", "EditedTextHTML": "Throughout my working life of the past 20 years I have been involved in adult education, the last four or five years of which were at Aberdeen College of Further Education. I do not need anyone to tell me of the importance of abolishing student tuition fees. I am committed to their abolition, and when I have the first practical chance to do so, I will. I am interested in practical politics.

The hypocrisy and cant that I have heard today from the Conservative National party about its amendment is unbelievable. The Conservatives started off the process of attacking students in our further and higher education colleges. I am afraid that, by introducing tuition fees, the Labour Government at Westminster has also failed students miserably.

As Jim Wallace rightly pointed out, nothing can be done until 2000-01. We cannot abolish tuition fees now because that would cause utter chaos in our further and higher education colleges—I can tell members that because of my experience. The amendment will not help students. It is impractical in every way and I will not be voting for it. However, I repeat that at the first practical opportunity I will be voting—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C705043", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan (Falkirk West): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 576.0, "ContributionID": 705043, "EditedText": "When the issue of tuition fees was debated in the House of Commons, I voted against them; I voted in favour of the restoration of student grants, especially for students from low-income families. Perhaps that is part of the reason why I am sitting in this part of the chamber rather than with Labour members. During the recent election campaign, I gave commitments on how I would vote on tuition fees and I also expressed the hope that this Parliament would take a far more enlightened view than did the House of Commons. However, that remains to be seen. In recent years, the House of Commons has, in many respects, been trying to turn the clock back with regard to opportunities in higher education. People who try to defend tuition fees tell us that about half the students in Scotland are exempt from paying them. I am not sure about that. I am told that the Scottish Office expects that figure to drop, so that in all probability in the next academic session the majority of students will face tuition fees. The current threshold shows that parents with a residual income of approximately £17,000 must pay fees for their sons or daughters at college or university. Parents with a residual income of £17,000 are not rich in this day and age. Nevertheless, we must admit that if we were to abolish tuition fees full stop, the main beneficiaries would be parents with high incomes. That is why we cannot examine tuition fees in isolation. The abolition of tuition fees must be accompanied by the restoration of grants—for students from low-income families in particular. The Executive's response is to set up some kind of inquiry into tuition fees. I admit that there might be a case for an inquiry into the level of maintenance grants, relative to income, but we must bear it in mind that the majority of members of this Parliament were elected on clear-cut commitments to abolish tuition fees—no ifs or buts or maybes; we were elected to this place to abolish tuition fees, and people outside want us, as members of this Parliament, to do that at the earliest opportunity. Sadly, the only party that did not have a commitment in its manifesto to abolish tuition fees was the Labour party. That is rather ironic, because the Labour party used to be the party of free education. However, new Labour has become the party of fee-paying education. It is now in coalition with the Liberal Democrats, although I, perhaps along with many other people, suspect that when the partnership agreement was being negotiated, people down in London were attempting to pull the strings. I am not opposed in principle to coalition, and I accept that the Liberal Democrats could not seriously expect every aspect of their manifesto to be included in the partnership agreement. However, I think that they sold themselves short—and sold the people of Scotland short—by not sticking to their principles, given that in the recent election those principles were supported by the majority of the people of Scotland. I see the demand for an inquiry as a fudge. We have had inquiries—we have had Dearing, we have had Garrick—and we can see the results. The latest figures show that applications are down by 8.4 per cent at Stirling, 7.4 per cent at St Andrews, 8.4 per cent at Napier, 6.5 per cent at Glasgow, 5 per cent at Edinburgh and 5.9 per cent at Dundee. The students are voting with their feet. Unless we change the policy, that trend will continue, meaning that fewer of our people, particularly our young people, will have the opportunity to benefit from higher education, as many—probably most—members of this Parliament have. Today we have a chance to examine the Scottish dimension of the problem and, by supporting the amendment, to find, in the First Minister's words, a distinctly Scottish solution to a Scottish problem.", "EditedTextHTML": "When the issue of tuition fees was debated in the House of Commons, I voted against them; I voted in favour of the restoration of student grants, especially for students from low-income families. Perhaps that is part of the reason why I am sitting in this part of the chamber rather than with Labour members.

During the recent election campaign, I gave commitments on how I would vote on tuition fees and I also expressed the hope that this Parliament would take a far more enlightened view than did the House of Commons. However, that remains to be seen. In recent years, the House of Commons has, in many respects, been trying to turn the clock back with regard to opportunities in higher education.

People who try to defend tuition fees tell us that about half the students in Scotland are exempt from paying them. I am not sure about that. I am told that the Scottish Office expects that figure to drop, so that in all probability in the next academic session the majority of students will face tuition fees. The current threshold shows that parents with a residual income of approximately £17,000 must pay fees for their sons or daughters at college or university. Parents with a residual income of £17,000 are not rich in this day and age. Nevertheless, we must admit that if we were to abolish tuition fees full stop, the main beneficiaries would be parents with high incomes.

That is why we cannot examine tuition fees in isolation. The abolition of tuition fees must be accompanied by the restoration of grants—for students from low-income families in particular.

The Executive's response is to set up some kind of inquiry into tuition fees. I admit that there might be a case for an inquiry into the level of maintenance grants, relative to income, but we must bear it in mind that the majority of members of this Parliament were elected on clear-cut commitments to abolish tuition fees—no ifs or buts or maybes; we were elected to this place to abolish tuition fees, and people outside want us, as members of this Parliament, to do that at the earliest opportunity.

Sadly, the only party that did not have a commitment in its manifesto to abolish tuition fees was the Labour party. That is rather ironic, because the Labour party used to be the party of free education. However, new Labour has become the party of fee-paying education. It is now in coalition with the Liberal Democrats, although I, perhaps along with many other people, suspect that when the partnership agreement was being negotiated, people down in London were attempting to pull the strings. I am not opposed in principle to coalition, and I accept that the Liberal Democrats could not seriously expect every aspect of their manifesto to be included in the partnership agreement. However, I think that they sold themselves short—and sold the people of Scotland short—by not sticking to their principles, given that in the recent election those principles were supported by the majority of the people of Scotland.

I see the demand for an inquiry as a fudge. We have had inquiries—we have had Dearing, we have had Garrick—and we can see the results. The latest figures show that applications are down by 8.4 per cent at Stirling, 7.4 per cent at St Andrews, 8.4 per cent at Napier, 6.5 per cent at Glasgow, 5 per cent at Edinburgh and 5.9 per cent at Dundee. The students are voting with their feet. Unless we change the policy, that trend will continue, meaning that fewer of our people, particularly our young people, will have the opportunity to benefit from higher education, as many—probably most—members of this Parliament have.

Today we have a chance to examine the Scottish dimension of the problem and, by supporting the amendment, to find, in the First Minister's words, a distinctly Scottish solution to a Scottish problem.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C705044", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 578.0, "ContributionID": 705044, "EditedText": "To try to accommodate as many members as I can who have indicated that they wish to speak, I must reduce the time limit for speeches to three minutes.", "EditedTextHTML": "To try to accommodate as many members as I can who have indicated that they wish to speak, I must reduce the time limit for speeches to three minutes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C705046", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Monteith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 583.0, "ContributionID": 705046, "EditedText": "As a former art student who applied for the art grant, I can testify that the art grant was used for materials, not living expenses. Its abolition is not, therefore, a contributory factor in student hardship.", "EditedTextHTML": "As a former art student who applied for the art grant, I can testify that the art grant was used for materials, not living expenses. Its abolition is not, therefore, a contributory factor in student hardship.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C705054", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 599.0, "ContributionID": 705054, "EditedText": "I ask members to limit interventions to the bare minimum so that we can include as many speeches as possible.", "EditedTextHTML": "I ask members to limit interventions to the bare minimum so that we can include as many speeches as possible.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1768E72P274C705061", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Murray, Elaine", "ID": 1768, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumfries" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Murray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Murray: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 615.0, "ContributionID": 705061, "EditedText": "Would Mr Mundell remind us who actually won the election in Dumfries?", "EditedTextHTML": "Would Mr Mundell remind us who actually won the election in Dumfries?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1962E35P56C705062", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mundell, David", "ID": 1962, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Mundell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David Mundell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 617.0, "ContributionID": 705062, "EditedText": "Indeed I am happy to, as I am about to come to the election result. Today, we have that opportunity before this Parliament, and I hope that Liberal Democrat members will be prepared to follow Neil Wallace's brave words and join us in lifting the iniquitous burden of tuition fees from Scottish students. Liberal Democrat members have given us many quotes. I have a quote from Mike Rumbles, from The Leader (Mearns), in which he says that he will vote for the abolition of tuition fees, and that Thursday is the start of the process.", "EditedTextHTML": "Indeed I am happy to, as I am about to come to the election result.

Today, we have that opportunity before this Parliament, and I hope that Liberal Democrat members will be prepared to follow Neil Wallace's brave words and join us in lifting the iniquitous burden of tuition fees from Scottish students. Liberal Democrat members have given us many quotes. I have a quote from Mike Rumbles, from The Leader (Mearns), in which he says that he will vote for the abolition of tuition fees, and that Thursday is the start of the process.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2140E187P335C705063", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Rumbles, Mike", "ID": 2140, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Rumbles", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Rumbles rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 619.0, "ContributionID": 705063, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1962E35P56C705066", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mundell, David", "ID": 1962, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Mundell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David Mundell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 625.0, "ContributionID": 705066, "EditedText": "In his explanation he is misguided as to what he is going to vote for—it is the amendment that will achieve that objective.", "EditedTextHTML": "In his explanation he is misguided as to what he is going to vote for—it is the amendment that will achieve that objective.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C705069", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 631.0, "ContributionID": 705069, "EditedText": "Mr Mundell, will you wind up, please.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Mundell, will you wind up, please.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5141019+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1950E155P451C705073", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Campbell, Colin", "ID": 1950, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Colin Campbell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Colin Campbell (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 640.0, "ContributionID": 705073, "EditedText": "Mr McNeil has just said that he benefited from free education. Why does he then seek to deny it to others?", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr McNeil has just said that he benefited from free education. Why does he then seek to deny it to others?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5141019+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C705077", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 648.0, "ContributionID": 705077, "EditedText": "I intervened because Duncan McNeil was in full flow; I hope that he does not mind. Does he agree that, along with the abolition of tuition fees, part of this debate has to be about the earliest possible reintroduction of student grants to support working-class kids and help them to get an education?", "EditedTextHTML": "I intervened because Duncan McNeil was in full flow; I hope that he does not mind. Does he agree that, along with the abolition of tuition fees, part of this debate has to be about the earliest possible reintroduction of student grants to support working-class kids and help them to get an education?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5297253+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C705085", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 666.0, "ContributionID": 705085, "EditedText": "I commented on the radio this morning that it would be absurd for anyone to make a commitment to a hypothetical situation. That is why we are having a review inquiry. MEMBERS: \"Oh.\" The SNP simply does not like being challenged on the wisdom of its position. It may want to get hooked on that hypothetical question, but let us go further to explore what Scotland wants. The SNP talks much about being in the vanguard of the people, but the National Union of Students, which is committed to the abolition of tuition fees, says: \"NUS Scotland has supported the establishment of a review committee to examine student financial support in Scotland. Indeed NUS Scotland publicly called for a review prior to the Scottish General Election.\"", "EditedTextHTML": "I commented on the radio this morning that it would be absurd for anyone to make a commitment to a hypothetical situation. That is why we are having a review inquiry. [MEMBERS: \"Oh.\"] The SNP simply does not like being challenged on the wisdom of its position. It may want to get hooked on that hypothetical question, but let us go further to explore what Scotland wants. The SNP talks much about being in the vanguard of the people, but the National Union of Students, which is committed to the abolition of tuition fees, says:

\"NUS Scotland has supported the establishment of a review committee to examine student financial support in Scotland. Indeed NUS Scotland publicly called for a review prior to the Scottish General Election.\"

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5297253+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C705086", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 668.0, "ContributionID": 705086, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5297253+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C705115", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26651, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 727.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 727.0, "ID": 26651, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 733.0, "ContributionID": 705115, "EditedText": "In that case, there will be a division. Members should vote yes to agree to the amendment, no to disagree to the amendment or abstain to record an abstention. Members should vote now.", "EditedTextHTML": "In that case, there will be a division. Members should vote yes to agree to the amendment, no to disagree to the amendment or abstain to record an abstention. Members should vote now.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5297253+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1892E34P73C705098", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Committees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26650, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 686.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 686.0, "ID": 26650, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Fergusson, Alex", "ID": 1892, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Fergusson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Fergusson (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 693.0, "ContributionID": 705098, "EditedText": "We cannot hear either.", "EditedTextHTML": "

We cannot hear either.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5297253+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2228E151P202C705100", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Committees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26650, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 686.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 686.0, "ID": 26650, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McCabe, Tom", "ID": 2228, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Tom McCabe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Parliament (Mr Tom McCabe): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 698.0, "ContributionID": 705100, "EditedText": "I am delighted to move this motion. Since the opening day, there has been much talk in the Parliament of a new politics. People have placed different interpretations on that, but there is a wide desire to achieve a new way of going about our business. I move the motion with a sense of contentment; it reflects consensus and cross-party support. However, I also move it with a sense of outrage caused by the front-page article that appeared in The Herald today, which totally misrepresents and distorts the work of the four parties involved in the Parliamentary Bureau. The Parliamentary Bureau asked the four party business managers if they could reach agreement on this potentially difficult issue and they undertook to discuss the matter. In the background of those discussions was the desire that Messrs Harper, Sheridan and Canavan could be accommodated on a committee within the Parliament. Clearly, in determining the size of the committees, we had to strike a balance between the need to manage MSPs' time for their chamber and constituency commitments and the time that they would spend in committee. We agreed to use the d'Hondt formula for the allocation of committee places. That formula would not provide any places for Messrs Canavan, Harper or Sheridan, but the parties were determined to resist that. In a spirit of fairness, they were determined to find some formula that would allocate a place to each of those three members. The d'Hondt formula would have allocated six places on an 11-member committee to the Labour party. To Labour's credit, it immediately recognised that, as it does not have a majority in this chamber, it would not be fair for it to have six places. We therefore agreed to reduce our representation on committees to five places. To their credit, other parties responded by reducing their representation. That ensured that places would be available for Messrs Canavan, Sheridan and Harper. The allocation of places on committees has been difficult for all parties. Of Labour members, 22 indicated an interest in the Social Inclusion, Housing and Voluntary Sector Committee, 21 in the Education, Culture and Sport Committee, 15 in the European Committee, 16 in the Equal Opportunities Committee and 13 in the Transport and the Environment Committee. Similar figures apply to the other parties, so some members will clearly be disappointed that they did not get on the committee of their first choice. The proposed allocation is based on a consensual approach and—more important—on the best principles of the consultative steering group report. The front-page article to which I referred earlier not only contained a headline that was offensive to my party, but badly misrepresented the commendable work that all the parties have done over the past few weeks to find an acceptable solution. Far more important in my view, that article misrepresents how politics and this Parliament can work if we all have the will. The principle that Robin Harper, Tommy Sheridan and Dennis Canavan should each secure a committee place is sound; it is supported by all parties on the Parliamentary Bureau. If the places are not on the committees of their first choice, that applies equally—as I have demonstrated—to members of every other party in the Parliament. I stress that the rules for committees in this Parliament are somewhat different from those in other places. MSPs can attend meetings of committees of which they are not members; they can speak at the discretion of the chair and can move amendments. They cannot vote, but they have considerable powers, even though they are not formally members of the committee. I stress on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau that, although a number of amendments have been lodged today, there is no intention to support or agree to any amendment that seeks to replace the names in the motion. I appeal to Messrs Canavan and Sheridan to realise that, if they do not accept the need for compromise to achieve consensus, they will find that, through their own action, they do not have committee places. It is not the wish of the Parliamentary Bureau or of any party that is represented on the bureau for Messrs Canavan, Harper or Sheridan not to have committee places, but the amendments would have the practical effect of leaving those members without committee places.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am delighted to move this motion. Since the opening day, there has been much talk in the Parliament of a new politics. People have placed different interpretations on that, but there is a wide desire to achieve a new way of going about our business.

I move the motion with a sense of contentment; it reflects consensus and cross-party support. However, I also move it with a sense of outrage caused by the front-page article that appeared in The Herald today, which totally misrepresents and distorts the work of the four parties involved in the Parliamentary Bureau.

The Parliamentary Bureau asked the four party business managers if they could reach agreement on this potentially difficult issue and they undertook to discuss the matter. In the background of those discussions was the desire that Messrs Harper, Sheridan and Canavan could be accommodated on a committee within the Parliament. Clearly, in determining the size of the committees, we had to strike a balance between the need to manage MSPs' time for their chamber and constituency commitments and the time that they would spend in committee.

We agreed to use the d'Hondt formula for the allocation of committee places. That formula would not provide any places for Messrs Canavan, Harper or Sheridan, but the parties were determined to resist that. In a spirit of fairness, they were determined to find some formula that would allocate a place to each of those three members.

The d'Hondt formula would have allocated six places on an 11-member committee to the Labour party. To Labour's credit, it immediately recognised that, as it does not have a majority in this chamber, it would not be fair for it to have six places. We therefore agreed to reduce our representation on committees to five places. To their credit, other parties responded by reducing their representation. That ensured that places would be available for Messrs Canavan, Sheridan and Harper.

The allocation of places on committees has been difficult for all parties. Of Labour members, 22 indicated an interest in the Social Inclusion, Housing and Voluntary Sector Committee, 21 in the Education, Culture and Sport Committee, 15 in the European Committee, 16 in the Equal Opportunities Committee and 13 in the Transport and the Environment Committee. Similar figures apply to the other parties, so some members will clearly be disappointed that they did not get on the committee of their first choice.

The proposed allocation is based on a consensual approach and—more important—on the best principles of the consultative steering group report. The front-page article to which I referred earlier not only contained a headline that was offensive to my party, but badly misrepresented the commendable work that all the parties have done over the past few weeks to find an acceptable solution. Far more important in my view, that article misrepresents how politics and this Parliament can work if we all have the will.

The principle that Robin Harper, Tommy Sheridan and Dennis Canavan should each secure a committee place is sound; it is supported by all parties on the Parliamentary Bureau. If the places are not on the committees of their first choice, that applies equally—as I have demonstrated—to members of every other party in the Parliament.

I stress that the rules for committees in this Parliament are somewhat different from those in other places. MSPs can attend meetings of committees of which they are not members; they can speak at the discretion of the chair and can move amendments. They cannot vote, but they have considerable powers, even though they are not formally members of the committee. I stress on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau that, although a number of amendments have been lodged today, there is no intention to support or agree to any amendment that seeks to replace the names in the motion.

I appeal to Messrs Canavan and Sheridan to realise that, if they do not accept the need for compromise to achieve consensus, they will find

that, through their own action, they do not have committee places. It is not the wish of the Parliamentary Bureau or of any party that is represented on the bureau for Messrs Canavan, Harper or Sheridan not to have committee places, but the amendments would have the practical effect of leaving those members without committee places.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5297253+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2056E57P84C705101", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Committees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26650, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 686.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 686.0, "ID": 26650, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James", "ID": 2056, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "James Douglas-Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Lord James Douglas-Hamilton (Lothians) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 700.0, "ContributionID": 705101, "EditedText": "Will the minister confirm that every party offered to give up a place and that the Scottish Conservatives offered to give up a place on the Equal Opportunities Committee?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister confirm that every party offered to give up a place and that the Scottish Conservatives offered to give up a place on the Equal Opportunities Committee?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5297253+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2228E151P202C705102", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Committees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26650, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 686.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 686.0, "ID": 26650, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McCabe, Tom", "ID": 2228, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Tom McCabe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McCabe: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 702.0, "ContributionID": 705102, "EditedText": "I thought that I had confirmed that, but I am more than happy to do so again. I stress as strongly as I can that the level of co-operation from all the parties on the bureau was commendable.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thought that I had confirmed that, but I am more than happy to do so again. I stress as strongly as I can that the level of co-operation from all the parties on the bureau was commendable.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5297253+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C705105", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Committees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26650, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 686.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 686.0, "ID": 26650, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan (Glasgow) (SSP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 709.0, "ContributionID": 705105, "EditedText": "We have heard of new politics, but I see that we now have new podium and a new member: it seems that d'Hondt is to blame. I didnae know that he was here, right enough. Although Tom talks about consensual politics, he consistently mentioned what the four parties' business managers were doing. The problem is that he has not spoken to me, Robin Harper or Dennis Canavan. Consensus means involving other people.", "EditedTextHTML": "We have heard of new politics, but I see that we now have new podium and a new member: it seems that d'Hondt is to blame. I didnae know that he was here, right enough.

Although Tom talks about consensual politics, he consistently mentioned what the four parties' business managers were doing. The problem is that he has not spoken to me, Robin Harper or Dennis Canavan. Consensus means involving other people.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5297253+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C705107", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Committees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26650, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 686.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 686.0, "ID": 26650, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 713.0, "ContributionID": 705107, "EditedText": "There is an old adage that if you provide enough rope, people sometimes hang themselves. It seems that there has been no consensual discussion with two out of the three members who are not represented on the Parliamentary Bureau. The member who Mr McCabe has had discussions with had to ask to be on three or four committees before getting the one that he wanted, whereas the two members who did not ask for anything did not get the ones that they wanted. That seems to be very arcane. The problem is that the two members requested places on the Social Inclusion, Housing and Voluntary Sector Committee and the Education, Culture and Sport Committee. The problem that Mr McCabe mentioned about the great number of members seeking places on the committees should surely be addressed by increasing the size of the committees, rather than by refusing membership to people who want to serve on a particular committee. In respect of the idea that we are creating a consensual atmosphere in this Parliament, the difficulty is that we would not have had any places under the d'Hondt system. To that I would say that if the formula disnae work, do not use it. We are all grown-ups in this chamber—surely we can decide to speak to one another, even if we do not agree. I do not think that it is too much to ask that two members who have requested a place on only one committee each are given those places—it is not as if we have requested a place on many committees or sought any special service. Under my amendments, the members whom we are asking to be deleted from the membership lists of the committees would still be members of two other committees. I move amendments S1M-53.1 and S1M-53.2.", "EditedTextHTML": "There is an old adage that if you provide enough rope, people sometimes hang themselves. It seems that there has been no consensual discussion with two out of the three members who are not represented on the Parliamentary Bureau. The member who Mr McCabe has had discussions with had to ask to be on three or four committees before getting the one that he wanted, whereas the two members who did not ask for anything did not get the ones that they wanted. That seems to be very arcane.

The problem is that the two members requested places on the Social Inclusion, Housing and Voluntary Sector Committee and the Education, Culture and Sport Committee. The problem that Mr McCabe mentioned about the great number of members seeking places on the committees should surely be addressed by increasing the size of the committees, rather than by refusing membership to people who want to serve on a particular committee.

In respect of the idea that we are creating a consensual atmosphere in this Parliament, the difficulty is that we would not have had any places under the d'Hondt system. To that I would say that if the formula disnae work, do not use it. We are all grown-ups in this chamber—surely we can decide to speak to one another, even if we do not agree. I do not think that it is too much to ask that two members who have requested a place on only one committee each are given those places—it is not as if we have requested a place on many committees or sought any special service. Under my amendments, the members whom we are asking to be deleted from the membership lists of the committees would still be members of two other committees.

I move amendments S1M-53.1 and S1M-53.2.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5297253+00:00" }, { "ID": "C705116", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26651, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 727.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 727.0, "ID": 26651, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 735.0, "ContributionID": 705116, "EditedText": "FOR Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)Crawford, Bruce JP (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)AGAINST Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)Mackay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)(LD)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Crawford, Bruce JP (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)

AGAINST

Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Mackay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)
(LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5297253+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C705121", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26651, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 727.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 727.0, "ID": 26651, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 743.0, "ContributionID": 705121, "EditedText": "In that case, there will be a division. Members should vote yes to agree to the motion, no to disagree to the motion or abstain to record an abstention. Members should vote now.", "EditedTextHTML": "In that case, there will be a division. Members should vote yes to agree to the motion, no to disagree to the motion or abstain to record an abstention. Members should vote now.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5297253+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C705132", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26651, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 727.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 727.0, "ID": 26651, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 762.0, "ContributionID": 705132, "EditedText": "In that case there will be a division. Members should vote yes to agree to the amendment, no to disagree to the amendment or abstain to record an abstention. Members should vote now.", "EditedTextHTML": "In that case there will be a division. Members should vote yes to agree to the amendment, no to disagree to the amendment or abstain to record an abstention. Members should vote now.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5297253+00:00" }, { "ID": "C705133", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26651, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 727.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 727.0, "ID": 26651, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 764.0, "ContributionID": 705133, "EditedText": "FOR Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)Crawford, Bruce JP (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)(LD)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)AGAINST Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)Mackay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab) Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab) Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Crawford, Bruce JP (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)
(LD)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)

AGAINST

Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Mackay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)

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" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5297253+00:00" }, { "ID": "C705158", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26651, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 727.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 727.0, "ID": 26651, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 805.0, "ContributionID": 705158, "EditedText": "FOR Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West) Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green) Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP) AGAINST Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Crawford, Bruce JP (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)Mackay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)(LD)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)

AGAINST

Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Crawford, Bruce JP (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Mackay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)
(LD)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5297253+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C705161", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26651, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 727.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 727.0, "ID": 26651, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 809.0, "ContributionID": 705161, "EditedText": "The question is, that amendment S1M-53.4, in the name of Dennis Canavan, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "The question is, that amendment S1M-53.4, in the name of Dennis Canavan, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5297253+00:00" }, { "ID": "C705164", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26651, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 727.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 727.0, "ID": 26651, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 815.0, "ContributionID": 705164, "EditedText": "FOR Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)AGAINST Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Crawford, Bruce JP (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)Mackay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)(LD)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)

AGAINST

Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Crawford, Bruce JP (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Mackay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)
(LD)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5453475+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C705165", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26651, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 727.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 727.0, "ID": 26651, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 816.0, "ContributionID": 705165, "EditedText": "The result of the division is as follows: For 4, Against 120, Abstentions 0.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result of the division is as follows: For 4, Against 120, Abstentions 0.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5453475+00:00" }, { "ID": "C705166", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26651, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 727.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 727.0, "ID": 26651, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 818.0, "ContributionID": 705166, "EditedText": "Amendment disagreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment disagreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5453475+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C705167", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26651, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 727.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 727.0, "ID": 26651, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 819.0, "ContributionID": 705167, "EditedText": "The question is, that amendment S1M-53.5, in the name of Robin Harper, be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "The question is, that amendment S1M-53.5, in the name of Robin Harper, be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5453475+00:00" }, { "ID": "C705176", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26651, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 727.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 727.0, "ID": 26651, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 835.0, "ContributionID": 705176, "EditedText": "Motion, as amended, agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion, as amended, agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5453475+00:00" }, { "ID": "C705181", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26651, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 727.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 727.0, "ID": 26651, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 840.0, "ContributionID": 705181, "EditedText": "Audit: Brian Adam, Scott Barrie, Cathie Craigie, Annabel Goldie, Margaret Jamieson, Nick Johnston, Lewis Macdonald, Paul Martin, Euan Robson, Andrew Welsh and Andrew Wilson be members of the Audit Committee, the Convener to be appointed from the Scottish National Party;", "EditedTextHTML": "Audit: Brian Adam, Scott Barrie, Cathie Craigie, Annabel Goldie, Margaret Jamieson, Nick Johnston, Lewis Macdonald, Paul Martin, Euan Robson, Andrew Welsh and Andrew Wilson be members of the Audit Committee, the Convener to be appointed from the Scottish National Party;

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5453475+00:00" }, { "ID": "C705183", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26651, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 727.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 727.0, "ID": 26651, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 842.0, "ContributionID": 705183, "EditedText": "Standards: Patricia Ferguson, Karen Gillon, James Douglas- Hamilton, Adam Ingram, Des McNulty, Tricia Marwick and Mike Rumbles be members of the Standards Committee, the Convener to be appointed from the Liberal Democrat Party;", "EditedTextHTML": "Standards: Patricia Ferguson, Karen Gillon, James Douglas- Hamilton, Adam Ingram, Des McNulty, Tricia Marwick and Mike Rumbles be members of the Standards Committee, the Convener to be appointed from the Liberal Democrat Party;

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5453475+00:00" }, { "ID": "C705185", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26651, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 727.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 727.0, "ID": 26651, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 844.0, "ContributionID": 705185, "EditedText": "Subordinate Legislation: Fergus Ewing, Trish Godman, Ian Jenkins, Kenny MacAskill, Bristow Muldoon, David Mundell and Ian Welsh be members of the Subordinate Legislation Committee, the Convener to be appointed from the Scottish National Party;", "EditedTextHTML": "Subordinate Legislation: Fergus Ewing, Trish Godman, Ian Jenkins, Kenny MacAskill, Bristow Muldoon, David Mundell and Ian Welsh be members of the Subordinate Legislation Committee, the Convener to be appointed from the Scottish National Party;

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5453475+00:00" }, { "ID": "C705186", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26651, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 727.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 727.0, "ID": 26651, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 845.0, "ContributionID": 705186, "EditedText": "Justice and Home Affairs: Scott Barrie, Roseanna Cunningham, Phil Gallie, Christine Grahame, Gordon Jackson, Lyndsay McIntosh, Kate MacLean, Maureen Macmillan, Pauline McNeill, Tricia Marwick and Euan Robson be members of the Justice and Home Affairs Committee, the Convener to be appointed from the Scottish National Party;", "EditedTextHTML": "Justice and Home Affairs: Scott Barrie, Roseanna Cunningham, Phil Gallie, Christine Grahame, Gordon Jackson, Lyndsay McIntosh, Kate MacLean, Maureen Macmillan, Pauline McNeill, Tricia Marwick and Euan Robson be members of the Justice and Home Affairs Committee, the Convener to be appointed from the Scottish National Party;

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5453475+00:00" }, { "ID": "C705189", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26651, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 727.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 727.0, "ID": 26651, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 848.0, "ContributionID": 705189, "EditedText": "Enterprise and Lifelong Learning: Fergus Ewing, Annabel Goldie, Nick Johnston, Marilyn Livingstone, George Lyon, Margo MacDonald, Duncan McNeil, Elaine Murray, John Swinney, Elaine Thomson and Allan Wilson be members of the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee, the Convener to be appointed from the Scottish National Party;", "EditedTextHTML": "Enterprise and Lifelong Learning: Fergus Ewing, Annabel Goldie, Nick Johnston, Marilyn Livingstone, George Lyon, Margo MacDonald, Duncan McNeil, Elaine Murray, John Swinney, Elaine Thomson and Allan Wilson be members of the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee, the Convener to be appointed from the Scottish National Party;

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5453475+00:00" }, { "ID": "C705190", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26651, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 727.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 727.0, "ID": 26651, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 849.0, "ContributionID": 705190, "EditedText": "Health and Community Care: Malcolm Chisholm, Dorothy-Grace Elder, Duncan Hamilton, Hugh Henry, Margaret Jamieson, Irene Oldfather, Mary Scanlon, Richard Simpson, Margaret Smith, Kay Ullrich and Ben Wallace be members of the Health and Community Care Committee, the Convener to be appointed from the Liberal Democrat Party;", "EditedTextHTML": "Health and Community Care: Malcolm Chisholm, Dorothy-Grace Elder, Duncan Hamilton, Hugh Henry, Margaret Jamieson, Irene Oldfather, Mary Scanlon, Richard Simpson, Margaret Smith, Kay Ullrich and Ben Wallace be members of the Health and Community Care Committee, the Convener to be appointed from the Liberal Democrat Party;

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5453475+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C705088", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 672.0, "ContributionID": 705088, "EditedText": "Will Mr McLeish give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr McLeish give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:16:20.3819228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C705092", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 680.0, "ContributionID": 705092, "EditedText": "Will Mr McLeish give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr McLeish give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:16:20.3819228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1857E136P222C705045", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeill, Pauline", "ID": 1857, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Kelvin" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Pauline McNeill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Pauline McNeill (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 581.0, "ContributionID": 705045, "EditedText": "As I represent a constituency with three universities and five colleges of further education, I intend to take a strong interest in education. As Glasgow Kelvin contains a high concentration of the student population, I want to take this opportunity to address the important issue of student hardship and get on record some of the figures for the problem. We do not generally think of students as being on the poverty line, and when discussing low pay we seldom associate that with students. However, student hardship has been a feature of the system since the 1980s. Although I give credit to the Conservative Government for expanding education in the 1980s, I say to Mr Monteith that it is wrong for the Conservatives not to take responsibility for the mounting debt that they created by successive measures to reduce the levels of grant: abolishing the special grant for art students, abolishing the repeat-year grant, and freezing student grants for two years running. It is dishonest of them not to take responsibility for the debt that students now face.", "EditedTextHTML": "As I represent a constituency with three universities and five colleges of further education, I intend to take a strong interest in education. As Glasgow Kelvin contains a high concentration of the student population, I want to take this opportunity to address the important issue of student hardship and get on record some of the figures for the problem.

We do not generally think of students as being on the poverty line, and when discussing low pay we seldom associate that with students. However, student hardship has been a feature of the system since the 1980s. Although I give credit to the Conservative Government for expanding education in the 1980s, I say to Mr Monteith that it is wrong for the Conservatives not to take

responsibility for the mounting debt that they created by successive measures to reduce the levels of grant: abolishing the special grant for art students, abolishing the repeat-year grant, and freezing student grants for two years running. It is dishonest of them not to take responsibility for the debt that students now face.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:14:54.5772891+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1857E136P222C705051", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeill, Pauline", "ID": 1857, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Kelvin" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Pauline McNeill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Pauline McNeill: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 593.0, "ContributionID": 705051, "EditedText": "To make it clear, I am supporting the motion, but I will say why fees must be included in the review, because of my beliefs about access—which I will get to.", "EditedTextHTML": "To make it clear, I am supporting the motion, but I will say why fees must be included in the review, because of my beliefs about access—which I will get to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:14:54.5772891+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1857E136P222C705053", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeill, Pauline", "ID": 1857, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Kelvin" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Pauline McNeill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Pauline McNeill: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 597.0, "ContributionID": 705053, "EditedText": "It seems I will not get to talk about it. The reason why I think student tuition fees should be included in our review is that we have all failed to address the issue of access to those from working-class families. We cannot put our hands on our hearts and say that this country has found the fundamental reasons why we do not have higher participation rates. I support the motion and, within that, I support the inclusion of tuition fees. I do not think that we can afford to exclude £40 million of public expenditure before we even begin to address the question of access. That is why the second review, as contained in the motion, is the most important.", "EditedTextHTML": "It seems I will not get to talk about it. The reason why I think student tuition fees should be included in our review is that we have all failed to address the issue of access to those from working-class families. We cannot put our hands on our hearts and say that this country has found the fundamental reasons why we do not have higher participation rates. I support the motion and, within that, I support the inclusion of tuition fees. I do not think that we can afford to exclude £40 million of public expenditure before we even begin to address the question of access. That is why the second review, as contained in the motion, is the most important.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:14:54.5772891+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C705084", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 664.0, "ContributionID": 705084, "EditedText": "Mr McLeish has set out the position that he represents. If the committee of inquiry recommends the abolition of tuition fees, will he guarantee that the Labour party will support and implement those recommendations?", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr McLeish has set out the position that he represents. If the committee of inquiry recommends the abolition of tuition fees, will he guarantee that the Labour party will support and implement those recommendations?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:14:54.5772891+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C705005", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 494.0, "ContributionID": 705005, "EditedText": "The people of Scotland were asked about tuition fees during the election and that is the only committee of inquiry that we need.", "EditedTextHTML": "The people of Scotland were asked about tuition fees during the election and that is the only committee of inquiry that we need.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:13:41.211281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C705010", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 504.0, "ContributionID": 705010, "EditedText": "I take Mr Wallace's point and he can put it on the record. Mr McLeish has also made it clear that the committee members will have no baggage to bring to the issue. That is all very laudable and it is consistent with Mr McLeish's approach to policy making, but it does not sound like a quick way to abolish tuition fees. If a committee is required, we must assume that it has a substantial job to do.", "EditedTextHTML": "I take Mr Wallace's point and he can put it on the record.

Mr McLeish has also made it clear that the committee members will have no baggage to bring to the issue. That is all very laudable and it is consistent with Mr McLeish's approach to policy making, but it does not sound like a quick way to abolish tuition fees. If a committee is required, we must assume that it has a substantial job to do.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:13:41.211281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C704788", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Thursday 17 June 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26621, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26621, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 3.0, "ContributionID": 704788, "EditedText": "I remind members to place their cards in the electronic slot. A number of members did not do so yesterday, which caused added difficulties for our sound engineers. The first item of business this morning is the debate on motion S1M-52 on the proposals for the development of the new Parliament building at Holyrood, and an amendment to the motion. I will invite the First Minister to move the motion with a time limit of 10 minutes. I will then call Donald Gorrie to move his amendment with a time limit of seven minutes. I propose to put a time limit on all speeches, initially at four minutes, for the simple reason that the corporate body is anxious to hear as many views as possible on the project. At the end of the debate, I will ask Margo MacDonald to sum up for the amendment in seven minutes, followed by Des McNulty, who will give a wind-up speech on behalf of the corporate body for seven minutes. He will be followed by Henry McLeish, who will give the concluding speech for the Executive.", "EditedTextHTML": "I remind members to place their cards in the electronic slot. A number of members did not do so yesterday, which caused added difficulties for our sound engineers.

The first item of business this morning is the debate on motion S1M-52 on the proposals for the development of the new Parliament building at Holyrood, and an amendment to the motion. I will invite the First Minister to move the motion with a time limit of 10 minutes. I will then call Donald Gorrie to move his amendment with a time limit of seven minutes. I propose to put a time limit on all speeches, initially at four minutes, for the simple reason that the corporate body is anxious to hear as many views as possible on the project.

At the end of the debate, I will ask Margo MacDonald to sum up for the amendment in seven minutes, followed by Des McNulty, who will give a wind-up speech on behalf of the corporate body for seven minutes. He will be followed by Henry McLeish, who will give the concluding speech for the Executive.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4672278+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C704794", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 17.0, "ContributionID": 704794, "EditedText": "Oh, come on.", "EditedTextHTML": "Oh, come on.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4672278+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C704797", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 23.0, "ContributionID": 704797, "EditedText": "The cost was £15 million more at that point. In other words, the best estimate that could be given was £65 million, whereas the projected construction costs for a new building were £50 million. The whole point of the St Andrew's House scheme was that one would have seen no external difference to the building; we would have added nothing to Edinburgh's architectural heritage and the Parliament would have been hidden behind a prewar façade. It seemed to us—and I put it to the chamber—that to build a Parliament incognito was not an attractive proposition. Expense was also a consideration. We wanted a site that presented the right challenge. That challenge came with Holyrood, which was a late entrant because the owners and occupiers of the site were prepared to adjust their timetable in order to make the site available. The site is beside Holyrood Palace, on the Canongate, in the centre of one of the great medieval cities of Europe, beside and under the looming bulk of Salisbury crags and Arthur's Seat. The site gave us the challenge of creating, with empathy, a 21st century building that would be a gift from our time to succeeding generations and an appropriate and fitting home for our Parliament. Holyrood gave us the opportunities and we thought that it was right to go ahead. We then decided to have a competition for a design team. I will go over that very quickly, but I will pay tribute to the independent members of the panel, Kirsty Wark, Joan O'Connor and Andy McMillan, who brought expertise and vision to the choice and worked extremely effectively in—I make no secret of it—what was one of the most exciting and satisfying processes of my 25 years in politics. I am a veteran of politics and have come out of many meetings telling the press that the decisions of those meetings were unanimous. On this occasion, the decision was unanimous. Every member of the team considered the distinguished architects who had submitted entries, looked at the designs, which had very different characters, and concluded that the design that was put forward by Enric Miralles best fitted the remit. I again pay tribute to Enric Miralles, Benedetta Tagliabue and all others involved. I pay particular tribute to their partners RMJM (Scotland) Ltd for the way in which it has evolved the design and treated the site with sympathy and for its vision of a group of buildings rising from the site to mirror and merge with the sweep of the Canongate and the surrounding hills and buildings. The way in which the project grows out of the landscape is attractive. I remember that when Mr Miralles first appeared before the judges, he produced splendid, large panels that were full of sweeping colour and vision and occasional pieces of script. I was much taken by the piece of script on the first panel, which said that Parliament was a mental place. That is an interesting thought for those of us who are familiar with the patter of Glasgow, but I know what he means. His whole approach was particularly sympathetic. We consulted the Royal Fine Art Commission for Scotland, Historic Scotland and many other interested bodies. I am already running out of time, but I will say a word or two about costs. We always said that £50 million was an initial construction cost and that there would be additional costs of VAT, fees and extras. It will be clear to those who bothered to read answers to parliamentary questions—I am sure that Mr Swinney did, as some of the figures that he adduced in parliamentary questions revealed this—that the final total would be around £80 million or £90 million. Mr Gorrie—indefatigable as always—extracted a lot of that information through parliamentary questions. The information was available and was never hidden. I make it clear that the £109 million that we now hold to—to the best of our ability—includes VAT, fees, site acquisition and preparation, information technology and fit-out. I must make it clear that landscaping into the park and the traffic calming measures, which are a matter for the Executive and City of Edinburgh Council, are not included. The reasons why the original construction costs went up from £50 million to £62 millions are well known, so I will skim over them. One was that there was a general view that a formal entrance at the bottom of the Canongate was a requirement. An increase in the circulation space—the passage and plant spaces—was largely dictated by the integration of Queensberry House. If members consider comparable buildings they will see that we are still doing well on price. As a result of the consultative steering group's work, the size of staff accommodation also had to be increased; the floor area in the original proposal increased by 44 per cent to 23,000 sq m and the cost rose by 24 per cent, which is perhaps not surprising. The increase was not caused by overspend on the original building. It was caused by the evolution of the building to meet the needs of this Parliament. The increase was fair and proper. There have a been a lot of rumours, based on an article in a technical journal, that the building will be shoddy and inadequate and that the materials will not be fit for the purpose—I think that the phrase was that we would be given a Dinky and not a Porsche. I found it a little puzzling—if I may be allowed a small snipe—that the source of that phrase had complained about the cost of the building only a few weeks before. I was caught in the crossfire, although I do not necessarily object to that too violently. If we had adopted such options we would not have unveiled the figure of £62 million. We did not take up those options because we want a quality building that will deliver the standards of service that this Parliament requires. The Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body can consider them again, if this Parliament believes that it should. That would be a matter for synergy between the corporate body and the design team. Hurrying on—I have to use that phrase constantly now—I say that the motion asks us to consider a few options. One is to cancel the project. I hope that that does not happen. If it does, there will be substantial implications in terms of the immediate cancellation costs and the claims for damages that inevitably arise when a disaster of that kind strikes a project. It would be a very expensive and—to use the phrase again—totally demoralising event. The circumstances would also be serious if we were to call a moratorium or decide to stay in our present accommodation. We are, to an extent, camping in these buildings. Anyone who has worked here during the past few weeks will understand that. The building is inadequate in scope; the floor area of the group of seven buildings that we occupy is too small, probably by a third. Although the chamber is splendid—and I congratulate the architects, Simpson & Brown, on the work that they have done—it has few facilities. I know that there is a suggestion, which Mr Gorrie will no doubt support, that we could take over the university premises and acquire a large number of properties in mixed ownership around this site. However, as anyone with experience of such matters will know, that is an expensive, time- consuming and difficult business, even if it were desirable, which I do not think it is. Yesterday, the rain came down as I left the chamber at about 5 o'clock and I was fair drookit by the time I got back to my office. When the winter comes, the difficulties of working in seven separate buildings will become apparent to all members. I do not believe that it is any better to take the easy way out and ask for a substantial pause so that we can consider the other options. That will cost money, a factor about which the Conservatives are particularly worried. I am told by civil servants, my advisers and people who are involved in the design process that the immediate costs of a two-month delay would be around £2 million to £3 million and that there might well be other claims and costs. We started on this trail in June 1997. We cannot, in two months, consider a range of new sites, get in the quantity surveyors and the statements from the architects and organise a new judging panel— it is unlikely that the same design team would go on to another site. There would be a major delay and—to put it bluntly; it is time to be blunt—this Parliament would be a laughing stock. The problem that opponents of the Holyrood project have is not even that we are somehow junking Leith—although the proposed committee would consider Leith, apparently, along with other sites, such as Donaldson's school, which has suddenly appeared in the business bulletin thanks to Brian Monteith. That site was considered at the time; we were told that the proposal was unacceptable and that we should not waste money investigating it. However, if Parliament votes in that way, we will be committed to doing so. It would be a mistake to put ourselves in that position and, on any reasonable reckoning, we would not have a new home until 2004 or 2005. The chamber is important and there has been a great deal of controversy about it. The plans for Holyrood show a slightly flattened semi-circle, which is similar to the seating arrangements in this hall. However, such plans can and will evolve. The Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body might argue for change and arrive at a consensus with the design team. No one should think that the seating arrangement that we have in this chamber can be transferred to the new Parliament. I am advised that, if we stay here long enough, the seating will have to change as it does not conform to the Disability Discrimination Act 1995. We have employed the international access consultants, Buro Happold, who tell me that, in the not-too-distant future, there will have to be a revamp of the signing and physical access arrangements in order to comply with the law. That is a matter that will have to evolve along with other matters. It is not caught in concrete—to use a happy metaphor. That we should stop the building contract on the basis of an argument about seating would be unwise and unfair, not only to the Parliament, but to the many other people who have worked so hard to make a success of the project. I apologise for slightly overrunning, Sir David. I finish by saying to my colleagues that this has never been an arbitrary process or a one-man show. All the important decisions were taken on specialist and skilled advice, matured by the cross-referencing of opinion. The design team was put in place by an independent body of good reputation. It is important that we press on with the project. We are trying to put in place a building of which we can be proud and we are putting in place a client and design team relationship that makes sense. If we say that we will not allow the corporate body to move on and to try to work out any difficulties that emerge, I believe that we are almost sending it a vote of no confidence. We cannot design by committee, certainly not by a committee of 129. The corporate body will be able to influence, guide and work with the immensely creative team that we have. I believe in my heart of hearts—I may be wrong, but I repeat the point— that, if there were a free vote in the Parliament, it would be clear that MSPs shared that view. I deeply regret that it is not a free vote; I hope that whoever speaks for the nationalists will explain why this is not Parliament business as distinct from party business. If the Parliament building is not the Parliament's business, I cannot think of anything that is. Yesterday, I was accused of having a lack of ambition and of not having the courage to stand by a radical vision. Today, the Parliament has the chance to stand by a radical vision; I hope that it will take that chance. Applause. I move,That the Parliament endorses the decision to provide its permanent home on the Holyrood site and authorises the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body to take forward the project in accordance with the plans developed by the EMBT/RMJM design team and within the time scale and cost estimates described in the Presiding Officer's note to members of 9 June 1999.", "EditedTextHTML": "The cost was £15 million more at that point. In other words, the best estimate that could be given was £65 million, whereas the projected construction costs for a new building were £50 million. The whole point of the St Andrew's House scheme was that one would have seen no external difference to the building; we would have added nothing to Edinburgh's architectural heritage and the Parliament would have been hidden behind a prewar façade. It seemed to us—and I put it to the chamber—that to build a Parliament incognito was not an attractive proposition. Expense was also a consideration.

We wanted a site that presented the right challenge. That challenge came with Holyrood, which was a late entrant because the owners and occupiers of the site were prepared to adjust their timetable in order to make the site available. The site is beside Holyrood Palace, on the Canongate, in the centre of one of the great medieval cities of Europe, beside and under the looming bulk of Salisbury crags and Arthur's Seat. The site gave us the challenge of creating, with empathy, a 21st century building that would be a gift from our time to succeeding generations and an appropriate and fitting home for our Parliament. Holyrood gave us the opportunities and we thought that it was right to go ahead.

We then decided to have a competition for a design team. I will go over that very quickly, but I will pay tribute to the independent members of the panel, Kirsty Wark, Joan O'Connor and Andy McMillan, who brought expertise and vision to the choice and worked extremely effectively in—I make no secret of it—what was one of the most exciting and satisfying processes of my 25 years in politics. I am a veteran of politics and have come out of many meetings telling the press that the decisions of those meetings were unanimous. On this occasion, the decision was unanimous. Every member of the team considered the distinguished architects who had submitted entries, looked at the designs, which had very different characters, and concluded that the design that was put forward by Enric Miralles best fitted the remit.

I again pay tribute to Enric Miralles, Benedetta Tagliabue and all others involved. I pay particular tribute to their partners RMJM (Scotland) Ltd for the way in which it has evolved the design and treated the site with sympathy and for its vision of a group of buildings rising from the site to mirror and merge with the sweep of the Canongate and the surrounding hills and buildings. The way in which the project grows out of the landscape is attractive.

I remember that when Mr Miralles first appeared before the judges, he produced splendid, large panels that were full of sweeping colour and vision and occasional pieces of script. I was much taken by the piece of script on the first panel, which said that Parliament was a mental place. That is an

interesting thought for those of us who are familiar with the patter of Glasgow, but I know what he means. His whole approach was particularly sympathetic. We consulted the Royal Fine Art Commission for Scotland, Historic Scotland and many other interested bodies.

I am already running out of time, but I will say a word or two about costs. We always said that £50 million was an initial construction cost and that there would be additional costs of VAT, fees and extras. It will be clear to those who bothered to read answers to parliamentary questions—I am sure that Mr Swinney did, as some of the figures that he adduced in parliamentary questions revealed this—that the final total would be around £80 million or £90 million. Mr Gorrie—indefatigable as always—extracted a lot of that information through parliamentary questions. The information was available and was never hidden.

I make it clear that the £109 million that we now hold to—to the best of our ability—includes VAT, fees, site acquisition and preparation, information technology and fit-out. I must make it clear that landscaping into the park and the traffic calming measures, which are a matter for the Executive and City of Edinburgh Council, are not included.

The reasons why the original construction costs went up from £50 million to £62 millions are well known, so I will skim over them. One was that there was a general view that a formal entrance at the bottom of the Canongate was a requirement. An increase in the circulation space—the passage and plant spaces—was largely dictated by the integration of Queensberry House. If members consider comparable buildings they will see that we are still doing well on price. As a result of the consultative steering group's work, the size of staff accommodation also had to be increased; the floor area in the original proposal increased by 44 per cent to 23,000 sq m and the cost rose by 24 per cent, which is perhaps not surprising. The increase was not caused by overspend on the original building. It was caused by the evolution of the building to meet the needs of this Parliament. The increase was fair and proper.

There have a been a lot of rumours, based on an article in a technical journal, that the building will be shoddy and inadequate and that the materials will not be fit for the purpose—I think that the phrase was that we would be given a Dinky and not a Porsche. I found it a little puzzling—if I may be allowed a small snipe—that the source of that phrase had complained about the cost of the building only a few weeks before. I was caught in the crossfire, although I do not necessarily object to that too violently.

If we had adopted such options we would not have unveiled the figure of £62 million. We did not take up those options because we want a quality building that will deliver the standards of service that this Parliament requires. The Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body can consider them again, if this Parliament believes that it should. That would be a matter for synergy between the corporate body and the design team.

Hurrying on—I have to use that phrase constantly now—I say that the motion asks us to consider a few options. One is to cancel the project. I hope that that does not happen. If it does, there will be substantial implications in terms of the immediate cancellation costs and the claims for damages that inevitably arise when a disaster of that kind strikes a project. It would be a very expensive and—to use the phrase again—totally demoralising event.

The circumstances would also be serious if we were to call a moratorium or decide to stay in our present accommodation. We are, to an extent, camping in these buildings. Anyone who has worked here during the past few weeks will understand that. The building is inadequate in scope; the floor area of the group of seven buildings that we occupy is too small, probably by a third. Although the chamber is splendid—and I congratulate the architects, Simpson & Brown, on the work that they have done—it has few facilities.

I know that there is a suggestion, which Mr Gorrie will no doubt support, that we could take over the university premises and acquire a large number of properties in mixed ownership around this site. However, as anyone with experience of such matters will know, that is an expensive, time- consuming and difficult business, even if it were desirable, which I do not think it is. Yesterday, the rain came down as I left the chamber at about 5 o'clock and I was fair drookit by the time I got back to my office. When the winter comes, the difficulties of working in seven separate buildings will become apparent to all members.

I do not believe that it is any better to take the easy way out and ask for a substantial pause so that we can consider the other options. That will cost money, a factor about which the Conservatives are particularly worried. I am told by civil servants, my advisers and people who are involved in the design process that the immediate costs of a two-month delay would be around £2 million to £3 million and that there might well be other claims and costs.

We started on this trail in June 1997. We cannot, in two months, consider a range of new sites, get in the quantity surveyors and the statements from the architects and organise a new judging panel— it is unlikely that the same design team would go on to another site. There would be a major delay and—to put it bluntly; it is time to be blunt—this Parliament would be a laughing stock.

The problem that opponents of the Holyrood project have is not even that we are somehow junking Leith—although the proposed committee would consider Leith, apparently, along with other sites, such as Donaldson's school, which has suddenly appeared in the business bulletin thanks to Brian Monteith. That site was considered at the time; we were told that the proposal was unacceptable and that we should not waste money investigating it. However, if Parliament votes in that way, we will be committed to doing so. It would be a mistake to put ourselves in that position and, on any reasonable reckoning, we would not have a new home until 2004 or 2005.

The chamber is important and there has been a great deal of controversy about it. The plans for Holyrood show a slightly flattened semi-circle, which is similar to the seating arrangements in this hall. However, such plans can and will evolve. The Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body might argue for change and arrive at a consensus with the design team. No one should think that the seating arrangement that we have in this chamber can be transferred to the new Parliament. I am advised that, if we stay here long enough, the seating will have to change as it does not conform to the Disability Discrimination Act 1995.

We have employed the international access consultants, Buro Happold, who tell me that, in the not-too-distant future, there will have to be a revamp of the signing and physical access arrangements in order to comply with the law. That is a matter that will have to evolve along with other matters. It is not caught in concrete—to use a happy metaphor. That we should stop the building contract on the basis of an argument about seating would be unwise and unfair, not only to the Parliament, but to the many other people who have worked so hard to make a success of the project.

I apologise for slightly overrunning, Sir David. I finish by saying to my colleagues that this has never been an arbitrary process or a one-man show. All the important decisions were taken on specialist and skilled advice, matured by the cross-referencing of opinion. The design team was put in place by an independent body of good reputation. It is important that we press on with the project. We are trying to put in place a building of which we can be proud and we are putting in place a client and design team relationship that makes sense.

If we say that we will not allow the corporate body to move on and to try to work out any difficulties that emerge, I believe that we are almost sending it a vote of no confidence. We cannot design by committee, certainly not by a committee of 129. The corporate body will be able to influence, guide and work with the immensely creative team that we have. I believe in my heart of hearts—I may be wrong, but I repeat the point— that, if there were a free vote in the Parliament, it would be clear that MSPs shared that view. I deeply regret that it is not a free vote; I hope that whoever speaks for the nationalists will explain why this is not Parliament business as distinct from party business. If the Parliament building is not the Parliament's business, I cannot think of anything that is.

Yesterday, I was accused of having a lack of ambition and of not having the courage to stand by a radical vision. Today, the Parliament has the chance to stand by a radical vision; I hope that it will take that chance. [Applause.]

I move,

That the Parliament endorses the decision to provide its permanent home on the Holyrood site and authorises the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body to take forward the project in accordance with the plans developed by the EMBT/RMJM design team and within the time scale and cost estimates described in the Presiding Officer's note to members of 9 June 1999.

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" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4672278+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704807", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 45.0, "ContributionID": 704807, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4672278+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C704808", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 46.0, "ContributionID": 704808, "EditedText": "The time limit is still three minutes so that I can get everybody who wants to speak into the debate.", "EditedTextHTML": "The time limit is still three minutes so that I can get everybody who wants to speak into the debate.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4672278+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2228E151P202C704805", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McCabe, Tom", "ID": 2228, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Tom McCabe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McCabe: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 41.0, "ContributionID": 704805, "EditedText": "I move, that the debate on the Holyrood project be extended for up to 30 minutes.", "EditedTextHTML": "I move, that the debate on the Holyrood project be extended for up to 30 minutes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4672278+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C704806", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 43.0, "ContributionID": 704806, "EditedText": "The question is, that the debate on the Holyrood project be extended for up to 30 minutes.", "EditedTextHTML": "The question is, that the debate on the Holyrood project be extended for up to 30 minutes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4672278+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1769E16P282C704809", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Smith, Elaine", "ID": 1769, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Coatbridge and Chryston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Smith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Elaine Smith (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 49.0, "ContributionID": 704809, "EditedText": "I chose to make my first speech in this debate because, although I am proud to represent Coatbridge and Chryston here in this Parliament, I also want to be proud of the Parliament that we are shaping for the future. I support the First Minister's motion to move forward with the construction and completion of the building at Holyrood. Scots are not fooled by the folly of a small number of people who would have us remain with the status quo—a status quo which excludes the people of my constituency from accessing me in a parliamentary environment; a status quo which goes no way towards providing the family-friendly environment that the people of Scotland want; a status quo which strengthens the notions of ivory towers and closed doors in our political processes. I believe that the people of Scotland do wish to access their representatives in a parliamentary environment and do wish to see family-friendly policies emanate from Parliament and be embodied within it. They do want to see real openness and transparency in government firsthand. We have the opportunity to achieve progress and establish the people's Parliament, not solely in our policy decisions on the people's priorities, but in the physical environment in which those decisions are made. We should establish a Parliament that provides access to all, regardless of differing abilities, and embraces the Government's priority of inclusion. We should establish a Parliament that seeks to attain environmental excellence that will be hailed as a beacon to others. In the Parliament we have an unrivalled opportunity to display to the world the excellence that exists in Scottish business, for example, through an arena for Scottish trade and industry exhibits. We could utilise the Parliament building during recess for innovative schemes to encourage young people to take part in the political process and we could use it as a resource for community groups. The Parliament building should make provision for working mothers and fathers. If Safeway can provide creche facilities for parents while they shop, surely we can provide them for parents while they lobby Government.These ideals are not possible in our temporary accommodation and a new search for a permanent home will not deliver any increase in quality or value for money. As we have heard, delaying or abandoning the process will have cost implications. Although I have sympathy with people who feel that we should use an old historic building, such buildings exist because of the vision and courage of someone in the past. We are making history with our Parliament: the building should be a sign of our times for future generations. The Parliament building should accommodate our wishes, should make provision for inclusion, and should reflect the sentiments and views of the Scottish people. We have to accept that the measures that will be required to do that—if we are to build on solid foundations—do not come cheap. Clearly, the original construction cost estimates of 1997 have been exceeded to meet the demands for increased floor space and additional requirements. Is that really the main issue to consider when deciding where the permanent home of our new-found democracy should be based? It has taken 300 years for the Scottish people to have their Parliament returned to them. Their desire is for a Parliament that will reflect and address their needs and aspirations, and that will do so not on a temporary basis or with a make-do mentality. The people of my constituency of Coatbridge and Chryston, and all the people of Scotland, want a Parliament that will encourage positive and progressive debates and decisions on the issues that affect their daily lives. I believe that they want that process to take place in a building that is fit to reflect the importance of those issues, a Parliament building that will bear the symbols of Scotland's heritage and the aspirations for Scotland's future. We have a duty to Scotland and its people today, tomorrow and in the next century. That duty involves ensuring that Scotland's Parliament and the Scottish Parliament buildings are a permanent fixture of Scottish life for many generations and many centuries to come.", "EditedTextHTML": "I chose to make my first speech in this debate because, although I am proud to represent Coatbridge and Chryston here in this Parliament, I also want to be proud of the Parliament that we are shaping for the future. I support the First Minister's motion to move forward with the construction and completion of the building at Holyrood.

Scots are not fooled by the folly of a small number of people who would have us remain with the status quo—a status quo which excludes the people of my constituency from accessing me in a parliamentary environment; a status quo which goes no way towards providing the family-friendly environment that the people of Scotland want; a status quo which strengthens the notions of ivory towers and closed doors in our political processes.

I believe that the people of Scotland do wish to access their representatives in a parliamentary environment and do wish to see family-friendly policies emanate from Parliament and be embodied within it. They do want to see real openness and transparency in government firsthand.

We have the opportunity to achieve progress and establish the people's Parliament, not solely in our policy decisions on the people's priorities, but in the physical environment in which those decisions are made. We should establish a Parliament that provides access to all, regardless of differing abilities, and embraces the Government's priority of inclusion. We should establish a Parliament that seeks to attain environmental excellence that will be hailed as a beacon to others.

In the Parliament we have an unrivalled opportunity to display to the world the excellence that exists in Scottish business, for example, through an arena for Scottish trade and industry exhibits. We could utilise the Parliament building during recess for innovative schemes to encourage young people to take part in the political process and we could use it as a resource for community groups. The Parliament building should make provision for working mothers and fathers. If Safeway can provide creche facilities for parents while they shop, surely we can provide

them for parents while they lobby Government.

These ideals are not possible in our temporary accommodation and a new search for a permanent home will not deliver any increase in quality or value for money. As we have heard, delaying or abandoning the process will have cost implications. Although I have sympathy with people who feel that we should use an old historic building, such buildings exist because of the vision and courage of someone in the past. We are making history with our Parliament: the building should be a sign of our times for future generations.

The Parliament building should accommodate our wishes, should make provision for inclusion, and should reflect the sentiments and views of the Scottish people. We have to accept that the measures that will be required to do that—if we are to build on solid foundations—do not come cheap. Clearly, the original construction cost estimates of 1997 have been exceeded to meet the demands for increased floor space and additional requirements. Is that really the main issue to consider when deciding where the permanent home of our new-found democracy should be based? It has taken 300 years for the Scottish people to have their Parliament returned to them. Their desire is for a Parliament that will reflect and address their needs and aspirations, and that will do so not on a temporary basis or with a make-do mentality.

The people of my constituency of Coatbridge and Chryston, and all the people of Scotland, want a Parliament that will encourage positive and progressive debates and decisions on the issues that affect their daily lives. I believe that they want that process to take place in a building that is fit to reflect the importance of those issues, a Parliament building that will bear the symbols of Scotland's heritage and the aspirations for Scotland's future.

We have a duty to Scotland and its people today, tomorrow and in the next century. That duty involves ensuring that Scotland's Parliament and the Scottish Parliament buildings are a permanent fixture of Scottish life for many generations and many centuries to come.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4672278+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C704811", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Richard Simpson (Ochil) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 54.0, "ContributionID": 704811, "EditedText": "On a point of order. I simply cannot hear the lady. I do not know if she is speaking in front of the microphone, but she is almost inaudible. I apologise for interrupting.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. I simply cannot hear the lady. I do not know if she is speaking in front of the microphone, but she is almost inaudible. I apologise for interrupting.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4672278+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C704812", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 56.0, "ContributionID": 704812, "EditedText": "That is all right; it was a fair point of order. Can the sound engineers do something?", "EditedTextHTML": "That is all right; it was a fair point of order. Can the sound engineers do something?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4672278+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C704813", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Goldie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 58.0, "ContributionID": 704813, "EditedText": "It may be Dr Simpson's loss, I do not know. Laughter. Is that better, can I be heard now?", "EditedTextHTML": "It may be Dr Simpson's loss, I do not know. [Laughter.] Is that better, can I be heard now?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4672278+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C704817", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning (Henry McLeish) rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 67.0, "ContributionID": 704817, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4672278+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1826E199P351C704824", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Smith, Margaret", "ID": 1826, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Smith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Smith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 86.0, "ContributionID": 704824, "EditedText": "One other point that I must make on behalf of the taxpayers of Edinburgh is that all members would give their eye-teeth to have the Parliament sited in their constituency. We should listen to Andrew Wilson and take the Parliament round the cities and towns of Scotland. We must not leave it to the taxpayers and the councillors of Edinburgh to find the funding to put in place the transport to get people to the Parliament, otherwise the Parliament will suffer.", "EditedTextHTML": "One other point that I must make on behalf of the taxpayers of Edinburgh is that all members would give their eye-teeth to have the Parliament sited in their constituency. We should listen to Andrew Wilson and take the Parliament round the cities and towns of Scotland. We must not leave it to the taxpayers and the councillors of Edinburgh to find the funding to put in place the transport to get people to the Parliament, otherwise the Parliament will suffer.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1823E145P193C704825", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jamieson, Margaret", "ID": 1823, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Kilmarnock and Loudoun" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Jamieson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Margaret Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 89.0, "ContributionID": 704825, "EditedText": "I took the opportunity on Tuesday to be briefed by the architectural and client teams involved with the Holyrood project. I went to that briefing with an open mind and came away determined that the way forward would be to vote for the continuation of the project. That view is supported by a constituent of mine in this week's issue of the Kilmarnock Standard. The briefing enlightened the attending MSPs about the reasons for the cost increase, which were identified as an increase in circulation space for the movement of people; the provision of appropriate accommodation and facilities for all those working in, or visiting, the Parliament; the cost of meeting fully the requirements of disability legislation; taking account of the best currently available building standards; and anticipating future improvements. The amendment in the name of Donald Gorrie makes no reference to those important matters, nor does it address the financial penalties that may be incurred if it is approved. The accommodation that is currently available to Parliament is not wholly suitable. It is not barrier- free and has high security costs, because of the number of sites. The heating of separate buildings is not cost-efficient. The adaptations to date are short term and would require further expenditure to meet regulations, and the accommodation does not meet the needs of staff in the Parliament's employ. The deliberations of a special committee would further delay the provision of a suitable Parliament building for Scotland for the next century and beyond. It is my view—and I hope that all members will agree—that if the Parliament is to meet the needs of the Scottish people, its facilities must be barrier-free. I accept that everything must be done to ensure that costs are controlled, but that should not exclude any group or individual from participating in Scotland's democracy. Today we have the opportunity to move closer to delivering a barrier-free, family-friendly, inclusive building, in which we as parliamentarians will serve the people of Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "I took the opportunity on Tuesday to be briefed by the architectural and client teams involved with the Holyrood project. I went to that briefing with an open mind and came away determined that the way forward would be to vote for the continuation of the project. That view is supported by a constituent of mine in this week's issue of the Kilmarnock Standard.

The briefing enlightened the attending MSPs about the reasons for the cost increase, which were identified as an increase in circulation space for the movement of people; the provision of appropriate accommodation and facilities for all those working in, or visiting, the Parliament; the cost of meeting fully the requirements of disability legislation; taking account of the best currently available building standards; and anticipating future improvements.

The amendment in the name of Donald Gorrie makes no reference to those important matters, nor does it address the financial penalties that may be incurred if it is approved. The accommodation that is currently available to Parliament is not wholly suitable. It is not barrier- free and has high security costs, because of the number of sites. The heating of separate buildings is not cost-efficient. The adaptations to date are short term and would require further expenditure to meet regulations, and the accommodation does not meet the needs of staff in the Parliament's employ.

The deliberations of a special committee would further delay the provision of a suitable Parliament building for Scotland for the next century and beyond. It is my view—and I hope that all members will agree—that if the Parliament is to meet the needs of the Scottish people, its facilities must be barrier-free. I accept that everything must be done to ensure that costs are controlled, but that should not exclude any group or individual from participating in Scotland's democracy.

Today we have the opportunity to move closer to delivering a barrier-free, family-friendly, inclusive building, in which we as parliamentarians will serve the people of Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2234E7P20C704827", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Aitken, Bill", "ID": 2234, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bill Aitken", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bill Aitken (Glasgow) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 95.0, "ContributionID": 704827, "EditedText": "Lyndsay McIntosh was perfectly correct in trying to focus our minds on the basic issue: cost. The Holyrood option clearly has to be considered, but it is worth bandying about a few of the figures, a term which I use advisedly. When the project was first mooted in 1997, various figures between £10 million and £40 million were quoted. I fully accept that those figures were never likely to be realistic. The figure of £50 million—plus VAT and fees, of course— was later quoted. I do not think that I am alone in thinking that the question of fees and VAT was mentioned sotto voce. The product that we are likely to receive in the end has many pleasing aspects. Like many members, I would take issue with the design and style of the chamber—clearly something that will require to be examined again. I am sure that, in the end, a serious compromise can be reached. I must return to the question of cost. Why, when the figure of £50 million plus fees plus VAT was mooted, was it considered that 16,000 sq m would have been adequate? Clearly, that would not have been adequate to achieve what we wanted—a Parliament that could house members and staff adequately. The appropriate space is now considered to be 23,000 sq m. Why was consideration not given to the essential corridor space? There are far too many unanswered questions, and the inescapable conclusion to which one is drawn is that the First Minister, whose enthusiasm for the project is entirely praiseworthy, acted in a somewhat impetuous manner. Regrettably, I would say—and I seek not to be agist—it was a case of a not-quite-so-young man in a hurry. That was unfortunate. If we had looked at the matter in a more measured, leisurely manner, we would have found a more acceptable conclusion for the people of Scotland. They are wary of the question of costs, and are well aware, as are many of us, of the way in which capital projects can overrun. We do not want the existing figure of £109 million to be exceeded. Regrettably, we have to draw breath and examine the matter in a cogent and reasoned manner. What Mr Gorrie is suggesting should be commended. We are not saying that we will not go to Holyrood. We are saying that we should examine in detail the options and the costs—there would, of course, be costs were we not to go to Holyrood—and then make a clear, reasoned decision, going where we go, knowing what the costs are likely to be and assuring the people of Scotland that they will get value for money.", "EditedTextHTML": "Lyndsay McIntosh was perfectly correct in trying to focus our minds on the basic issue: cost. The Holyrood option clearly has to be considered, but it is worth bandying about a few of the figures, a term which I use advisedly. When the project was first mooted in 1997, various figures between £10 million and £40 million were quoted. I fully accept that those figures were never likely to be realistic. The figure of £50 million—plus VAT and fees, of course— was later quoted. I do not think that I am alone in thinking that the question of fees and VAT was mentioned sotto voce.

The product that we are likely to receive in the end has many pleasing aspects. Like many members, I would take issue with the design and style of the chamber—clearly something that will require to be examined again. I am sure that, in the end, a serious compromise can be reached.

I must return to the question of cost. Why, when the figure of £50 million plus fees plus VAT was mooted, was it considered that 16,000 sq m would have been adequate? Clearly, that would not have been adequate to achieve what we wanted—a Parliament that could house members and staff adequately. The appropriate space is now considered to be 23,000 sq m. Why was consideration not given to the essential corridor space? There are far too many unanswered questions, and the inescapable conclusion to which one is drawn is that the First Minister, whose enthusiasm for the project is entirely praiseworthy, acted in a somewhat impetuous manner. Regrettably, I would say—and I seek not to be agist—it was a case of a not-quite-so-young man in a hurry. That was unfortunate.

If we had looked at the matter in a more measured, leisurely manner, we would have found a more acceptable conclusion for the people of Scotland. They are wary of the question of costs, and are well aware, as are many of us, of the way in which capital projects can overrun. We do not want the existing figure of £109 million to be exceeded. Regrettably, we have to draw breath and examine the matter in a cogent and reasoned manner. What Mr Gorrie is suggesting should be commended. We are not saying that we will not go to Holyrood. We are saying that we should examine in detail the options and the costs—there would, of course, be costs were we not to go to Holyrood—and then make a clear, reasoned decision, going where we go, knowing what the costs are likely to be and assuring the people of Scotland that they will get value for money.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2142E142P230C704828", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Watson, Mike", "ID": 2142, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Cathcart" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Watson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mike Watson (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 98.0, "ContributionID": 704828, "EditedText": "Today's speeches in support of Mr Gorrie's amendment have been disappointing. It is appropriate that we have the opportunity to discuss these matters, and I welcome it. However, Mr Gorrie was a bit disingenuous in some of his arguments, not least when he said that his proposal was \"not anti-Holyrood\". He went on to justify his position in two ways; it was clear that it was an anti-Holyrood proposal. First, he spoke in favour of the Calton hill proposal, which could have legitimacy only at the expense of Holyrood. Secondly, he justified his position by citing a paper from Mr James Simpson, which he circulated to all members this morning—Mr Simpson advocated New College as a potential site for the Parliament. It is quite clear that Mr Gorrie's position is anti- Holyrood. I am happy to put my cards on the table and say that I am pro-Holyrood. It is a good proposal. It may not be the best site in Edinburgh, but there are very few sites in central Edinburgh, either new or old, which will not cause the traffic congestion that Mr Gorrie mentioned. We could site the Parliament at the Gyle, which would be handy because of the train station there, but it would not be appropriate. The setting of the Parliament is important. I accept that cost is an issue, but it should not be the overriding issue. I listened to Bill Aitken's remarks. We are building a Parliament that we hope will be there for hundreds of years. I am not into the national virility symbol argument, but the new Parliament does have symbolic importance. Whether we get new politics remains to be seen, so I shall not use the term—but a new millennium and a new democracy in Scotland merit a new building.I might horrify the First Minister by saying that I was very disappointed when, as Secretary of State for Scotland, he announced that we would move away from Calton hill. For me it had been the focus of years of campaigning for a Scottish Parliament. We prepared Calton hill in 1979 and campaigning was based around that building. So I was disappointed, but I have now come to the conclusion that wherever we talk about—Calton hill, New College or remaining here—we do not need an old building. For new politics, for the new democracy, we need a new building.", "EditedTextHTML": "Today's speeches in support of Mr Gorrie's amendment have been disappointing. It is appropriate that we have the opportunity to discuss these matters, and I welcome it. However, Mr Gorrie was a bit disingenuous in some of his arguments, not least when he said that his proposal was \"not anti-Holyrood\". He went on to justify his position in two ways; it was clear that it was an anti-Holyrood proposal. First, he spoke in favour of the Calton hill proposal, which could have legitimacy only at the expense of Holyrood. Secondly, he justified his position by citing a paper from Mr James Simpson, which he circulated to all members this morning—Mr Simpson advocated New College as a potential site for the Parliament.

It is quite clear that Mr Gorrie's position is anti- Holyrood. I am happy to put my cards on the table and say that I am pro-Holyrood. It is a good proposal. It may not be the best site in Edinburgh, but there are very few sites in central Edinburgh, either new or old, which will not cause the traffic congestion that Mr Gorrie mentioned. We could site the Parliament at the Gyle, which would be handy because of the train station there, but it would not be appropriate. The setting of the Parliament is important.

I accept that cost is an issue, but it should not be the overriding issue. I listened to Bill Aitken's remarks. We are building a Parliament that we hope will be there for hundreds of years. I am not into the national virility symbol argument, but the new Parliament does have symbolic importance. Whether we get new politics remains to be seen, so I shall not use the term—but a new millennium and a new democracy in Scotland merit a new

building.

I might horrify the First Minister by saying that I was very disappointed when, as Secretary of State for Scotland, he announced that we would move away from Calton hill. For me it had been the focus of years of campaigning for a Scottish Parliament. We prepared Calton hill in 1979 and campaigning was based around that building. So I was disappointed, but I have now come to the conclusion that wherever we talk about—Calton hill, New College or remaining here—we do not need an old building. For new politics, for the new democracy, we need a new building.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1751E163P286C704832", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Craigie, Cathie", "ID": 1751, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Cumbernauld and Kilsyth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Cathie Craigie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Cathie Craigie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 107.0, "ContributionID": 704832, "EditedText": "Will Mr Quinan give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr Quinan give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1828E200P487C704836", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacDonald, Margo", "ID": 1828, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margo MacDonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Margo MacDonald (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 117.0, "ContributionID": 704836, "EditedText": "May I ask for a point of information?", "EditedTextHTML": "May I ask for a point of information?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C704840", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 128.0, "ContributionID": 704840, "EditedText": "The Scottish Conservatives accepted the verdict of the Scottish people when they voted for the Scottish Parliament—and a new building—in the 1997 referendum. However, at that time we were told that the cost of the building would be between £10 million and £40 million. The Scottish Conservatives argued that there would not be much change out of £100 million. We were ridiculed for making those statements, and told that we were scaremongering. Well, today it can be seen that we were right. We also raised the possibility that other costs might be added on to the Parliament. We said that the cost of the ministerial team would be three times that of the Scottish ministers in 1997. The First Minister has excelled himself and has gone to four times that figure. We believed that the revenue costs could rise to £100 million—we were told that that was not possible. Donald Gorrie's comments today suggest that the Presiding Officer's department could cost £12 million. That must put us well on the way to reaching the £100 million revenue costs that we were forecasting back in 1997. Some in this chamber might say, \"That is typical of you Conservatives. You are obsessed with costs.\" We are obsessed with costs, but it is not our money that the Parliament is spending—it is taxpayers' money. We have got to get every bit of value out of the money that the Parliament spends. Like Lyndsay McIntosh, I would rather that some of the money was spent on upgrading the A77. Tommy Sheridan made a passionate plea for Glasgow's housing yesterday. Perhaps some of the money could be spent on uprating housing. That would be good value for money, but spending this amount of money on a building because someone has decided on the Holyrood site and that the new building is necessary for Scotland's image is questionable. We will support a new Parliament building, but we must consider every aspect of it. Donald Gorrie's motion gives us the opportunity to do that. I cannot see why the target date of 2001 has to be held to so firmly. I hope that the building will last us for 100 or 150 years—perhaps 200 years— so let us get it right and give Scotland something to be proud of. We must ensure that every MSP can take pride in the decision that we make today.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Scottish Conservatives accepted the verdict of the Scottish people when they voted for the Scottish Parliament—and a new building—in the 1997 referendum. However, at that time we were told that the cost of the building would be between £10 million and £40 million. The Scottish Conservatives argued that there would not be much change out of £100 million. We were ridiculed for making those statements, and told that we were scaremongering. Well, today it can be seen that we were right.

We also raised the possibility that other costs might be added on to the Parliament. We said that the cost of the ministerial team would be three times that of the Scottish ministers in 1997. The First Minister has excelled himself and has gone to four times that figure. We believed that the revenue costs could rise to £100 million—we were told that that was not possible. Donald Gorrie's comments today suggest that the Presiding Officer's department could cost £12 million. That must put us well on the way to reaching the £100 million revenue costs that we were forecasting back in 1997.

Some in this chamber might say, \"That is typical of you Conservatives. You are obsessed with costs.\" We are obsessed with costs, but it is not our money that the Parliament is spending—it is taxpayers' money. We have got to get every bit of value out of the money that the Parliament spends. Like Lyndsay McIntosh, I would rather that some of the money was spent on upgrading the A77.

Tommy Sheridan made a passionate plea for Glasgow's housing yesterday. Perhaps some of the money could be spent on uprating housing. That would be good value for money, but spending this amount of money on a building because someone has decided on the Holyrood site and that the new building is necessary for Scotland's image is questionable.

We will support a new Parliament building, but we must consider every aspect of it. Donald Gorrie's motion gives us the opportunity to do that.

I cannot see why the target date of 2001 has to be held to so firmly. I hope that the building will last us for 100 or 150 years—perhaps 200 years— so let us get it right and give Scotland something to be proud of. We must ensure that every MSP can take pride in the decision that we make today.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C704841", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Patricia Ferguson (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 131.0, "ContributionID": 704841, "EditedText": "I am very sympathetic to Mr Gorrie's concerns about members' visibility when they are speaking in debates. Mr Gorrie may like to know that, during his speech, I counted at least eight people in the segment of the chamber that he inhabits who had to turn round in their chairs and crane their necks to see him. The problem of visibility is not unique to any future chamber; we might like to consider it today.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am very sympathetic to Mr Gorrie's concerns about members' visibility when they are speaking in debates. Mr Gorrie may like to know that, during his speech, I counted at least eight people in the segment of the chamber that he inhabits who had to turn round in their chairs and crane their necks to see him. The problem of visibility is not unique to any future chamber; we might like to consider it today.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C704846", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 143.0, "ContributionID": 704846, "EditedText": "If all members make speeches of such brevity, many more will have a chance to speak.", "EditedTextHTML": "If all members make speeches of such brevity, many more will have a chance to speak.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1762E216P508C704848", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Elder, Dorothy-Grace", "ID": 1762, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 149.0, "ContributionID": 704848, "EditedText": "I agree with many Labour members who have said that cost is not the only factor. It most certainly is not. In London, the Government has lavished taxpayers' money on Portcullis House, which is said to be the most expensive office building in Britain. It cost more than £200 million and was built for Westminster MPs—whatever they do nowadays. Mr Blair has also achieved the extension to the Jubilee line, which is said to be the world's most expensive railway extension, costing more than £620 million. When we consider those figures, we realise that London is still getting it all. The Jubilee line extension leads to the world's most stupid project: the dome of doom at Greenwich. Taxpayers can stagger off the Jubilee line and face something else that will fleece them: the dome that is costing £720 million.", "EditedTextHTML": "I agree with many Labour members who have said that cost is not the only factor. It most certainly is not.

In London, the Government has lavished taxpayers' money on Portcullis House, which is said to be the most expensive office building in Britain. It cost more than £200 million and was built for Westminster MPs—whatever they do nowadays.

Mr Blair has also achieved the extension to the Jubilee line, which is said to be the world's most expensive railway extension, costing more than £620 million. When we consider those figures, we realise that London is still getting it all. The Jubilee line extension leads to the world's most stupid project: the dome of doom at Greenwich. Taxpayers can stagger off the Jubilee line and face something else that will fleece them: the dome that is costing £720 million.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1986E53P206C704851", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeil, Duncan", "ID": 1986, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Greenock and Inverclyde" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan McNeil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McNeil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 155.0, "ContributionID": 704851, "EditedText": "Does she agree that we are getting a real bargain when we compare Holyrood to the costs that she has just given?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does she agree that we are getting a real bargain when we compare Holyrood to the costs that she has just given?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1762E216P508C704854", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Elder, Dorothy-Grace", "ID": 1762, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 161.0, "ContributionID": 704854, "EditedText": "I make no apology for returning to the tragedy that I mentioned yesterday.", "EditedTextHTML": "I make no apology for returning to the tragedy that I mentioned yesterday.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C704855", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 163.0, "ContributionID": 704855, "EditedText": "Very quickly, please.", "EditedTextHTML": "Very quickly, please.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C704859", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 171.0, "ContributionID": 704859, "EditedText": "Please conclude your remarks now.", "EditedTextHTML": "Please conclude your remarks now.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1762E216P508C704860", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Elder, Dorothy-Grace", "ID": 1762, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 173.0, "ContributionID": 704860, "EditedText": "A four-year-old girl died because Glasgow is being starved of cash.", "EditedTextHTML": "A four-year-old girl died because Glasgow is being starved of cash.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C704867", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 189.0, "ContributionID": 704867, "EditedText": "That is correct.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is correct.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1828E200P487C704870", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacDonald, Margo", "ID": 1828, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margo MacDonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms MacDonald: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 195.0, "ContributionID": 704870, "EditedText": "I will certainly give way; I have better manners.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will certainly give way; I have better manners.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1970E66P288C704874", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNulty, Des", "ID": 1970, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Clydebank and Milngavie" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Des McNulty", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Des McNulty (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 204.0, "ContributionID": 704874, "EditedText": "I welcome this debate on Holyrood and I recognise the fact that members have articulated different points of view on the subject. However, the debate has been conducted in such a way that Holyrood has become the whipping-boy for different points of view and different motivations. I am not sure that the debate has been about the case for or against the building's merits, which should be the basis for any decision as important and as significant as this. There are a number of very good reasons why the Parliament's present accommodation is unsuitable and why we need to make a decision and proceed with the new plan relatively quickly. Members have mentioned the quality of this debating chamber. I think that this debating chamber is good for members; people are pleased with it. It has an atmosphere of its own. This building is unsatisfactory in terms of access for disabled people, however. It would be difficult for any member who was disabled to use this chamber and building. If we want to be inclusive and build a Parliament for Scotland that everybody can participate in, we should move the accessibility agenda forward as quickly as possible. The Parliament is not a matter only for parliamentarians. As a member of the corporate body, I am aware of the unsatisfactory working conditions of many of the people who work for the Parliament. In the switchboard area, in the kitchens and in rooms in the office building, people are working in unsatisfactory circumstances that prevent them from doing their jobs as effectively as I—and they—would wish. Their circumstances should be addressed as well as ours. That is one reason why we should consider the project rather than the political furore that surrounds it. If we want an efficient and effective Parliament, which the people working for it can be proud of, we must proceed to a new building and new arrangements as soon as possible. I was interested in a number of points that were made in the debate. Some members said that they were in favour of Holyrood but wanted a delay to get more information. In the past week, the corporate body has, since it took over responsibility for the Holyrood project, made a great deal of information available about the proposals for the Parliament building; it will continue to do so if the motion is agreed to. There will be a clear, interactive process of deliberation and debate about the design of the building. That process will involve all members of the Parliament and, I hope, a lot of other people, including Parliament employees. Many details and arrangements within the footprint of the building have yet to be finalised. Even if the decision is made today, which I hope it will be, there will be many opportunities for people to participate in and contribute to the decision-making process.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome this debate on Holyrood and I recognise the fact that members have articulated

different points of view on the subject. However, the debate has been conducted in such a way that Holyrood has become the whipping-boy for different points of view and different motivations. I am not sure that the debate has been about the case for or against the building's merits, which should be the basis for any decision as important and as significant as this.

There are a number of very good reasons why the Parliament's present accommodation is unsuitable and why we need to make a decision and proceed with the new plan relatively quickly. Members have mentioned the quality of this debating chamber. I think that this debating chamber is good for members; people are pleased with it. It has an atmosphere of its own.

This building is unsatisfactory in terms of access for disabled people, however. It would be difficult for any member who was disabled to use this chamber and building. If we want to be inclusive and build a Parliament for Scotland that everybody can participate in, we should move the accessibility agenda forward as quickly as possible.

The Parliament is not a matter only for parliamentarians. As a member of the corporate body, I am aware of the unsatisfactory working conditions of many of the people who work for the Parliament. In the switchboard area, in the kitchens and in rooms in the office building, people are working in unsatisfactory circumstances that prevent them from doing their jobs as effectively as I—and they—would wish. Their circumstances should be addressed as well as ours. That is one reason why we should consider the project rather than the political furore that surrounds it. If we want an efficient and effective Parliament, which the people working for it can be proud of, we must proceed to a new building and new arrangements as soon as possible.

I was interested in a number of points that were made in the debate. Some members said that they were in favour of Holyrood but wanted a delay to get more information. In the past week, the corporate body has, since it took over responsibility for the Holyrood project, made a great deal of information available about the proposals for the Parliament building; it will continue to do so if the motion is agreed to.

There will be a clear, interactive process of deliberation and debate about the design of the building. That process will involve all members of the Parliament and, I hope, a lot of other people, including Parliament employees. Many details and arrangements within the footprint of the building have yet to be finalised. Even if the decision is made today, which I hope it will be, there will be many opportunities for people to participate in and contribute to the decision-making process.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1970E66P288C704877", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNulty, Des", "ID": 1970, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Clydebank and Milngavie" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Des McNulty", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Des McNulty: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 210.0, "ContributionID": 704877, "EditedText": "I make it clear that whatever the Parliament decides today—whether it decides to go ahead with the project or to support Mr Gorrie's amendment—the corporate body will, within the terms and remit of its responsibility, carry out the broad wishes of the Parliament. However, the corporate body has responsibilities to Parliament; it has responsibilities to the staff and to members. Strong arguments have emerged in the debate and why we should make a decision as quickly as possible about the future circumstances of the Parliament. If we proceed with the proposal, the corporate body will attempt to consult as broadly as possible. There are problems associated with our staying in the present circumstances. The office building has a series of internal problems—for example, there are problems with asbestos—which will cause difficulties if we are there for any length of time. Providing accommodation for committees is a particular problem in the office building. We intend to make a series of commitments today to establish 16 committees: it is difficult to see how those committees could be accommodated effectively, given the range of public access commitments—contained in all the parties' manifestos—that the Parliament has made. The corporate body will seek to operate within the terms of the decisions of the Parliament, but a series of issues indicate that we have to make a decision on the Parliament building as quickly as possible. Those issues have arisen as a result of the considerations that have been presented by the design team, the Executive and others. If we are obliged to delay, that will cost the corporate body and the Parliament a significant amount of money. That should not be ignored. The corporate body is required to look at the financial circumstances and implications of any delay.", "EditedTextHTML": "I make it clear that whatever the Parliament decides today—whether it decides to go ahead with the project or to support Mr Gorrie's amendment—the corporate body will, within the terms and remit of its responsibility, carry out the broad wishes of the Parliament. However, the corporate body has responsibilities to Parliament; it has responsibilities to the staff and to members. Strong arguments have emerged in the debate and why we should make a decision as quickly as possible about the future circumstances of the Parliament.

If we proceed with the proposal, the corporate body will attempt to consult as broadly as possible. There are problems associated with our staying in the present circumstances. The office building has a series of internal problems—for example, there are problems with asbestos—which will cause difficulties if we are there for any length of time.

Providing accommodation for committees is a particular problem in the office building. We intend to make a series of commitments today to establish 16 committees: it is difficult to see how those committees could be accommodated effectively, given the range of public access commitments—contained in all the parties' manifestos—that the Parliament has made.

The corporate body will seek to operate within the terms of the decisions of the Parliament, but a series of issues indicate that we have to make a decision on the Parliament building as quickly as possible. Those issues have arisen as a result of the considerations that have been presented by the design team, the Executive and others. If we are obliged to delay, that will cost the corporate body and the Parliament a significant amount of money. That should not be ignored. The corporate body is required to look at the financial circumstances and implications of any delay.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C704879", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning (Henry McLeish): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 215.0, "ContributionID": 704879, "EditedText": "This has been a good debate, and I echo Des McNulty's comments that it is important for the Parliament to discuss important issues. However, the importance is not for us as parliamentarians, because, as was pointed out, we are only the custodians for the Scottish people. We have been asked to make a decision about what will probably be one of the most important buildings to be constructed in Scotland for 300 years. There is enormous responsibility on our shoulders to get it right. Before I wind up, I would like to respond to Margo MacDonald's question on wind-tunnel tests, as I am sure that the whole of Scotland is waiting for an answer. I am informed that those tests are in hand but, with my usual courtesy, I will send Margo a note with more details.", "EditedTextHTML": "This has been a good debate, and I echo Des McNulty's comments that it is important for the Parliament to discuss

important issues. However, the importance is not for us as parliamentarians, because, as was pointed out, we are only the custodians for the Scottish people. We have been asked to make a decision about what will probably be one of the most important buildings to be constructed in Scotland for 300 years. There is enormous responsibility on our shoulders to get it right.

Before I wind up, I would like to respond to Margo MacDonald's question on wind-tunnel tests, as I am sure that the whole of Scotland is waiting for an answer. I am informed that those tests are in hand but, with my usual courtesy, I will send Margo a note with more details.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C704886", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 229.0, "ContributionID": 704886, "EditedText": "We are in the summing up. Do not give way.", "EditedTextHTML": "We are in the summing up. Do not give way.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704892", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26623, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 235.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 235.0, "ID": 26623, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 243.0, "ContributionID": 704892, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704894", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26623, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 235.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 235.0, "ID": 26623, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 245.0, "ContributionID": 704894, "EditedText": "Meeting adjourned at 13:02.", "EditedTextHTML": "Meeting adjourned at 13:02.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C704897", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26624, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 248.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26625, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 251.0, "QuestionHeading": "Caledonian MacBrayne", "QuestionHeadingID": 26626, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 252.0, "DisplayOrder": 252.0, "ID": 26626, "ParentID": 26625 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "1. George Lyon (Argyll and Bute) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 253.0, "ContributionID": 704897, "EditedText": "It is an honour to have the first question in this Parliament and it is on a subject that is important to the constituency— The Presiding Officer: I did say without deviation from the printed version.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is an honour to have the first question in this Parliament and it is on a subject that is important to the constituency— The Presiding Officer: I did say without deviation from the printed version.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C704898", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26624, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 248.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26625, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 251.0, "QuestionHeading": "Caledonian MacBrayne", "QuestionHeadingID": 26626, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 252.0, "DisplayOrder": 252.0, "ID": 26626, "ParentID": 26625 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 255.0, "ContributionID": 704898, "EditedText": "I thought that you would allow me an exception, as this is the first question. To ask the Scottish Executive what its long-term investment strategy will be for Caledonian MacBrayne. (S1O-44)", "EditedTextHTML": "I thought that you would allow me an exception, as this is the first question.

To ask the Scottish Executive what its long-term investment strategy will be for Caledonian MacBrayne. (S1O-44)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C704900", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26624, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 248.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26625, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 251.0, "QuestionHeading": "Caledonian MacBrayne", "QuestionHeadingID": 26626, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 252.0, "DisplayOrder": 252.0, "ID": 26626, "ParentID": 26625 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 259.0, "ContributionID": 704900, "EditedText": "I would also like to ask where the Deloitte & Touche report that has existed in draft form since March 1998 is. The report examined CalMac service provision on the Clyde and took into consideration the future of Dunoon pier. When can we expect the report's recommendations to be made public? More important, when can the local communities have some consultation on that report and have full knowledge of what the future of the Clyde services is likely to be?", "EditedTextHTML": "I would also like to ask where the Deloitte & Touche report that has existed in draft form since March 1998 is. The report examined CalMac service provision on the Clyde and took into consideration the future of Dunoon pier. When can we expect the report's recommendations to be made public? More important, when can the local communities have some consultation on that report and have full knowledge of what the future

of the Clyde services is likely to be?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1893E47P78C704903", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26624, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 248.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26625, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 251.0, "QuestionHeading": "Farming", "QuestionHeadingID": 26627, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 263.0, "DisplayOrder": 263.0, "ID": 26627, "ParentID": 26625 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnstone, Alex", "ID": 1893, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Johnstone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Johnstone: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 266.0, "ContributionID": 704903, "EditedText": "The Scottish agriculture industry is in a bad condition at the moment. We have heard proposals from a number of parties, and they are contained within the partnership agreement, for the introduction of an appeals procedure through which any disputes concerning European support can be dealt with. Does the minister have any plans to bring forward early proposals to deal with that matter?", "EditedTextHTML": "The Scottish agriculture industry is in a bad condition at the moment. We have heard proposals from a number of parties, and they are contained within the partnership agreement, for the introduction of an appeals procedure through which any disputes concerning European support can be dealt with. Does the minister have any plans to bring forward early proposals to deal with that matter?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1832E96P195C704906", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26624, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 248.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26625, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 251.0, "QuestionHeading": "Further and Higher Education", "QuestionHeadingID": 26628, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 270.0, "DisplayOrder": 270.0, "ID": 26628, "ParentID": 26625 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Livingstone, Marilyn", "ID": 1832, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Kirkcaldy" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Marilyn Livingstone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Marilyn Livingstone: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 273.0, "ContributionID": 704906, "EditedText": "On the question of widening access, has any provision been made to give priority to the needs of the most vulnerable and those in our communities who feel excluded?", "EditedTextHTML": "On the question of widening access, has any provision been made to give priority to the needs of the most vulnerable and those in our communities who feel excluded?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C704907", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26624, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 248.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26625, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 251.0, "QuestionHeading": "Further and Higher Education", "QuestionHeadingID": 26628, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 270.0, "DisplayOrder": 270.0, "ID": 26628, "ParentID": 26625 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 275.0, "ContributionID": 704907, "EditedText": "Yes, because as part of the expansion of funding in higher and further education we want to widen access. In particular, we want to focus on those groups that need special assistance. The disabled students allowance, for example, is paid to eligible students in higher education who, as a result of their disability, face extra costs in attending their course. We are also using access funds to tackle particular problems that students face. The total provided for access in 1998-99 was £8.76 million. As part of the partnership agreement between Labour and the Liberal Democrats, that will be increased to £14 million in 2001-02. This is a priority area to which the Executive is giving its full attention.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes, because as part of the expansion of funding in higher and further education we want to widen access. In particular, we want to focus on those groups that need special assistance. The disabled students allowance, for example, is paid to eligible students in higher education who, as a result of their disability, face extra costs in attending their course. We are also using access funds to tackle particular problems that students face. The total provided for access in 1998-99 was £8.76 million. As part of the partnership agreement between Labour and the Liberal Democrats, that will be increased to £14 million in 2001-02. This is a priority area to which the Executive is giving its full attention.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1862E99P179C704909", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26624, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 248.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26625, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 251.0, "QuestionHeading": "Football Development", "QuestionHeadingID": 26629, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 277.0, "DisplayOrder": 277.0, "ID": 26629, "ParentID": 26625 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Brankin, Rhona", "ID": 1862, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Midlothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Culture and Sport", "SpeakerName": "Rhona Brankin", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Culture and Sport (Rhona Brankin): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 280.0, "ContributionID": 704909, "EditedText": "I chaired the inaugural meeting of the football partnership on Monday 14 June. The partnership set up a task force to draw up detailed proposals and report back by the end of October. Our aim is to help Scotland's national teams and top clubs to compete successfully on the international stage, through the development of our native talent.", "EditedTextHTML": "I chaired the inaugural meeting of the football partnership on Monday 14 June. The partnership set up a task force to draw up detailed proposals and report back by the end of October. Our aim is to help Scotland's national teams and top clubs to compete successfully on the international stage, through the development of our native talent.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1901E57P277C704910", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26624, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 248.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26625, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 251.0, "QuestionHeading": "Football Development", "QuestionHeadingID": 26629, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 277.0, "DisplayOrder": 277.0, "ID": 26629, "ParentID": 26625 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Allan", "ID": 1901, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Cunninghame North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Allan Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Allan Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 282.0, "ContributionID": 704910, "EditedText": "I am sure that everyone in this chamber shares the Scottish football partnership's objectives and wishes it well in its deliberations. Can we be assured that as well as developing coaching expertise, important as that is, the task force will consider proposals to develop indoor and other all-weather facilities for our football academies, on the Scandinavian model? Such facilities would provide year-round opportunities for Scottish kids to improve their skills and end the game's expensive reliance on foreign players, many of them of Scandinavian origin.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sure that everyone in this chamber shares the Scottish football partnership's objectives and wishes it well in its deliberations. Can we be assured that as well as developing coaching expertise, important as that is, the task force will consider proposals to develop indoor and other all-weather facilities for our football academies, on the Scandinavian model? Such facilities would provide year-round opportunities for Scottish kids to improve their skills and end the game's expensive reliance on foreign players, many of them of Scandinavian origin.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2167E79P155C704913", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26624, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 248.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26625, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 251.0, "QuestionHeading": "Pre-school Education", "QuestionHeadingID": 26630, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 286.0, "DisplayOrder": 286.0, "ID": 26630, "ParentID": 26625 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Peacock, Peter", "ID": 2167, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Peter Peacock", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Children and Education (Peter Peacock): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 289.0, "ContributionID": 704913, "EditedText": "We expect that universal provision of pre-school education for three-year-olds, from a range of providers and supported by a range of measures to guarantee quality, will be achieved in 2002.", "EditedTextHTML": "We expect that universal provision of pre-school education for three-year-olds, from a range of providers and supported by a range of measures to guarantee quality, will be achieved in 2002.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1803E78P291C704916", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26624, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 248.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26625, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 251.0, "QuestionHeading": "Schools (Books and Equipment)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26631, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 295.0, "DisplayOrder": 295.0, "ID": 26631, "ParentID": 26625 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gillon, Karen", "ID": 1803, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Clydesdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Karen Gillon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "6. Karen Gillon (Clydesdale) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 296.0, "ContributionID": 704916, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive how much it intends will be spent in total on new books and equipment for schools in Scotland over the next three years. (S1O-30) The Minister for Children and Education (Mr Sam Galbraith): Over the next two years an additional £21 million will be allocated for investment in books and equipment, including new technology, in schools. That is on top of the existing spending by local authorities on books and equipment in schools, which in recent years has been around £50 million per year.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive how much it intends will be spent in total on new books and equipment for schools in Scotland over the next three years. (S1O-30) The Minister for Children and Education (Mr Sam Galbraith): Over the next two years an additional £21 million will be allocated for investment in books and equipment, including new technology, in schools. That is on top of the existing spending by local authorities on books and equipment in schools, which in recent years has been around £50 million per year.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1803E78P291C704917", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26624, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 248.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26625, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 251.0, "QuestionHeading": "Schools (Books and Equipment)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26631, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 295.0, "DisplayOrder": 295.0, "ID": 26631, "ParentID": 26625 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gillon, Karen", "ID": 1803, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Clydesdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Karen Gillon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Karen Gillon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 298.0, "ContributionID": 704917, "EditedText": "Is the minister aware that I visited Forth primary school in my constituency on Monday this week to see at first hand new books and equipment that the school has received? Both staff and pupils expressed their great desire to see more of the money to which the minister refers. Can he give an indication of how much the extra money will amount to per pupil, and when it is likely to come through to schools?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is the minister aware that I visited Forth primary school in my constituency on Monday this week to see at first hand new books and equipment that the school has received? Both staff and pupils expressed their great desire to see more of the money to which the minister refers. Can he give an indication of how much the extra money will amount to per pupil, and when it is likely to come through to schools?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C704918", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26624, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 248.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26625, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 251.0, "QuestionHeading": "Schools (Books and Equipment)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26631, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 295.0, "DisplayOrder": 295.0, "ID": 26631, "ParentID": 26625 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Galbraith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 300.0, "ContributionID": 704918, "EditedText": "I am delighted that Karen has already visited some of the schools in her constituency. I hope that that will be the pattern for all members, so that they can see the commitment of teachers and the high quality of our schools. On average, the additional money will come to about £8,000 per school and £24 per pupil. That is a large sum and one that will, I know, be welcomed not only by this chamber but by all the teachers, pupils and parents involved.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am delighted that Karen has already visited some of the schools in her constituency. I hope that that will be the pattern for all members, so that they can see the commitment of teachers and the high quality of our schools. On average, the additional money will come to about £8,000 per school and £24 per pupil. That is a large sum and one that will, I know, be welcomed not only by this chamber but by all the teachers, pupils and parents involved.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4828523+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C704924", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26624, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 248.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26625, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 251.0, "QuestionHeading": "Drug Treatment Programmes", "QuestionHeadingID": 26632, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 302.0, "DisplayOrder": 302.0, "ID": 26632, "ParentID": 26625 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 313.0, "ContributionID": 704924, "EditedText": "Is Susan Deacon committed to a reallocation of resources from prevention, detection and the courts to treatment and rehabilitation, which has by far the smaller share of the budget at the moment?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is Susan Deacon committed to a reallocation of resources from prevention, detection and the courts to treatment and rehabilitation, which has by far the smaller share of the budget at the moment?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2029E47P167C704927", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26624, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 248.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26625, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 251.0, "QuestionHeading": "Representative Office (Brussels)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26633, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 317.0, "DisplayOrder": 317.0, "ID": 26633, "ParentID": 26625 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Henry, Hugh", "ID": 2029, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Hugh Henry", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Hugh Henry: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 320.0, "ContributionID": 704927, "EditedText": "Will the Scottish representative office advance Scotland's case in Europe? The minister may know that there has been much excitement among many European institutions at the formation of this Parliament, and that a very strong Scottish partnership is already in evidence in Brussels. Scotland Europa represents the private, local government, voluntary, academic and other sectors. Will the Scottish Representative Office be available to support that strong, effective partnership?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the Scottish representative office advance Scotland's case in Europe? The minister may know that there has been much excitement among many European institutions at the formation of this Parliament, and that a very strong Scottish partnership is already in evidence in Brussels. Scotland Europa represents the private, local government, voluntary, academic and other sectors. Will the Scottish Representative Office be available to support that strong, effective partnership?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1811E172P455C704935", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26624, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 248.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26625, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 251.0, "QuestionHeading": "Long-term Care", "QuestionHeadingID": 26636, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 338.0, "DisplayOrder": 338.0, "ID": 26636, "ParentID": 26625 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ullrich, Kay", "ID": 1811, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kay Ullrich", "SpeakerDisplayName": "11. Kay Ullrich (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 339.0, "ContributionID": 704935, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it intends to implement the recommendations of the royal commission on long-term care which fall under its competence. (S1O-51) The Deputy Minister for Community Care (Iain Gray): We are considering our response to the recommendations of the royal commission on long-term care relating to social work, health and housing.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it intends to implement the recommendations of the royal commission on long-term care which fall under its competence. (S1O-51) The Deputy Minister for Community Care (Iain Gray): We are considering our response to the recommendations of the royal commission on long-term care relating to social work, health and housing.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1811E172P455C704938", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26624, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 248.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26625, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 251.0, "QuestionHeading": "Long-term Care", "QuestionHeadingID": 26636, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 338.0, "DisplayOrder": 338.0, "ID": 26636, "ParentID": 26625 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ullrich, Kay", "ID": 1811, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kay Ullrich", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Kay Ullrich: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 345.0, "ContributionID": 704938, "EditedText": "I hope for the sake of Scotland's elderly and their carers that I am not hearing the sound of dragging feet. I am asking about the equivalent to the £140 million of ring-fenced new money that was given in England. The £5 million the minister talks about is not ring-fenced and it is not new money. Will he address my question?", "EditedTextHTML": "I hope for the sake of Scotland's elderly and their carers that I am not hearing the sound of dragging feet. I am asking about the equivalent to the £140 million of ring-fenced new money that was given in England. The £5 million the minister talks about is not ring-fenced and it is not new money. Will he address my question?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1837E108P186C704940", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26624, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 248.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26625, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 251.0, "QuestionHeading": "Victims of Crime", "QuestionHeadingID": 26637, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 349.0, "DisplayOrder": 349.0, "ID": 26637, "ParentID": 26625 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mulligan, Mary", "ID": 1837, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Linlithgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Mulligan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "12. Mrs Mary Mulligan (Linlithgow) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 350.0, "ContributionID": 704940, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it intends to bring forward plans to support, and keep informed, victims of crime who are required to appear in court in Scotland. (S1O-41) The Lord Advocate (Lord Hardie): While much support is already available for victims of crime, the Executive will consider how services to meet victims' needs for information and support can be further developed.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it intends to bring forward plans to support, and keep informed, victims of crime who are required to appear in court in Scotland. (S1O-41) The Lord Advocate (Lord Hardie): While much support is already available for victims of crime, the Executive will consider how services to meet victims' needs for information and support can be further developed.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704942", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26624, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 248.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26625, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 251.0, "QuestionHeading": "Victims of Crime", "QuestionHeadingID": 26637, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 349.0, "DisplayOrder": 349.0, "ID": 26637, "ParentID": 26625 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Lord Advocate", "SpeakerName": "Andrew Hardie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Lord Advocate: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 354.0, "ContributionID": 704942, "EditedText": "Funding for Victim Support Scotland has increased from £1.5 million last year to £1.7 million this year; the average grant in Scotland per victim is three times higher than that in England and Wales. Bids for next year will be assessed on their merits and in the light of the Executive's spending priorities.", "EditedTextHTML": "Funding for Victim Support Scotland has increased from £1.5 million last year to £1.7 million this year; the average grant in

Scotland per victim is three times higher than that in England and Wales. Bids for next year will be assessed on their merits and in the light of the Executive's spending priorities.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C704944", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26624, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 248.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26625, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 251.0, "QuestionHeading": "Bed Blocking", "QuestionHeadingID": 26638, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 356.0, "DisplayOrder": 356.0, "ID": 26638, "ParentID": 26625 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 359.0, "ContributionID": 704944, "EditedText": "I am pleased to hear that there will be greater integration. It has been flagged up to me that there is likely to be a serious crisis over the millennium, with an expected increase in accident and emergency cases at a time when the number of NHS admissions is higher. Compounded with bed blocking, those are serious concerns. Will they be addressed by the end of the year?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am pleased to hear that there will be greater integration. It has been flagged up to me that there is likely to be a serious crisis over the millennium, with an expected increase in accident and emergency cases at a time when the number of NHS admissions is higher. Compounded with bed blocking, those are serious concerns. Will they be addressed by the end of the year?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1871E113P240C704945", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26624, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 248.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26625, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 251.0, "QuestionHeading": "Bed Blocking", "QuestionHeadingID": 26638, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 356.0, "DisplayOrder": 356.0, "ID": 26638, "ParentID": 26625 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Deacon, Susan", "ID": 1871, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh East and Musselburgh" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Health and Community Care", "SpeakerName": "Susan Deacon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Susan Deacon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 361.0, "ContributionID": 704945, "EditedText": "Mrs Scanlon raises a number of important issues, and I will try to address a few of them briefly. Additional winter funding has already been channelled in to ensure that winter crises do not arise. There is, however, no quick fix to the problem of bed blocking. Some imaginative and effective work has recently been done locally, which has started to resolve the problems, regarding both the people who are concerned and the effective use of resources. I am keen for us to use the opportunity that this Parliament has to build on those examples and ensure that that success spreads throughout the country.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mrs Scanlon raises a number of important issues, and I will try to address a few of them briefly. Additional winter funding has already been channelled in to ensure that winter crises do not arise. There is, however, no quick fix to the problem of bed blocking. Some imaginative and effective work has recently been done locally, which has started to resolve the problems, regarding both the people who are concerned and the effective use of resources. I am keen for us to use the opportunity that this Parliament has to build on those examples and ensure that that success spreads throughout the country.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1863E284P532C704950", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26624, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 248.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26625, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 251.0, "QuestionHeading": "Lockerbie", "QuestionHeadingID": 26640, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 372.0, "DisplayOrder": 372.0, "ID": 26640, "ParentID": 26625 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Cunningham, Roseanna", "ID": 1863, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Perth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Roseanna Cunningham", "SpeakerDisplayName": "15. Roseanna Cunningham (Perth) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 373.0, "ContributionID": 704950, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has to discuss with the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs the administration of the trial of those accused in the Lockerbie air disaster. (S1O-63) The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice (Mr Jim Wallace): The administration of the trial is a matter for the High Court of Justiciary. Security and facilities at the site are being provided by the Scottish Court Service, the Scottish Prison Service, and Dumfries and Galloway constabulary with the assistance of other forces.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what plans it has to discuss with the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs the administration of the trial of those accused in the Lockerbie air disaster. (S1O-63) The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice (Mr Jim Wallace): The administration of the trial is a matter for the High Court of Justiciary. Security and facilities at the site are being provided by the Scottish Court Service, the Scottish Prison Service, and Dumfries and Galloway constabulary with the assistance of other forces.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C704952", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26624, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 248.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26625, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 251.0, "QuestionHeading": "Lockerbie", "QuestionHeadingID": 26640, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 372.0, "DisplayOrder": 372.0, "ID": 26640, "ParentID": 26625 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 377.0, "ContributionID": 704952, "EditedText": "I am pleased to be able to give Ms Cunningham an answer that I hope she will find satisfactory. It has been agreed that the agreed capital costs will be met fully by the reserve and not by the Scottish block. Eighty per cent of current costs will be met by the reserve and 20 per cent by the Scottish block. That reflects the fact that, had the trial been held in Scotland, its costs would have been met by the Scottish block.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am pleased to be able to give Ms Cunningham an answer that I hope she will find satisfactory. It has been agreed that the agreed capital costs will be met fully by the reserve and not by the Scottish block. Eighty per cent of current costs will be met by the reserve and 20 per cent by the Scottish block. That reflects the fact that, had the trial been held in Scotland, its costs would have been met by the Scottish block.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C704958", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26624, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 248.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26625, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 251.0, "QuestionHeading": "Homelessness", "QuestionHeadingID": 26641, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "DisplayOrder": 379.0, "ID": 26641, "ParentID": 26625 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 390.0, "ContributionID": 704958, "EditedText": "We are in a grey area between the old regime and the new, and we must be tolerant. Members cannot ask about, and ministers should not answer on, subjects for which the Executive is not yet responsible.", "EditedTextHTML": "We are in a grey area between the old regime and the new, and we must be tolerant. Members cannot ask about, and ministers should not answer on, subjects for which the Executive is not yet responsible.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2118E157P454C704959", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26624, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 248.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26625, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 251.0, "QuestionHeading": "Fire Service", "QuestionHeadingID": 26642, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 392.0, "DisplayOrder": 392.0, "ID": 26642, "ParentID": 26625 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Quinan, Mr Lloyd", "ID": 2118, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lloyd Quinan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "17. Mr Lloyd Quinan (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 393.0, "ContributionID": 704959, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what measures it intends to implement to protect fire service pensions in the light of the proposed review of the fire service in Scotland. (S1O-65) The Deputy Minister for Justice (Angus Mackay): The review of the service in Scotland is examining the structure of the fire service. It therefore has no implications for the fire service pension scheme.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what measures it intends to implement to protect fire service pensions in the light of the proposed review of the fire service in Scotland. (S1O-65) The Deputy Minister for Justice (Angus Mackay): The review of the service in Scotland is examining the structure of the fire service. It therefore has no implications for the fire service pension scheme.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1911E107P234C704963", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26624, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 248.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26625, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 251.0, "QuestionHeading": "Fire Service", "QuestionHeadingID": 26642, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 392.0, "DisplayOrder": 392.0, "ID": 26642, "ParentID": 26625 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacKay, Angus", "ID": 1911, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Angus MacKay", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Angus Mackay: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 401.0, "ContributionID": 704963, "EditedText": "If I remember rightly the first supplementary question that was asked, no, I cannot explain why the Fire Brigades Union has issued the document to which Lloyd Quinan referred. However, I know how the confusion has arisen. The initial question was about the review of the structure of the fire service. The pension scheme is a separate matter, which is currently the subject of a consultation that is being carried out by UK ministers. It is an on-going consultation. When the report is published, the Scottish Executive will take a view of its own on fire pension schemes. If any changes were made to the fire pension scheme, current members would retain their existing rights and the new scheme would apply only to staff joining the fire service after the introduction of any new scheme.", "EditedTextHTML": "If I remember rightly the first supplementary question that was asked, no, I cannot explain why the Fire Brigades Union has issued the document to which Lloyd Quinan referred. However, I know how the confusion has arisen. The initial question was about the review of the structure of the fire service. The pension scheme is a separate matter, which is currently the subject of a consultation that is being carried out by UK ministers. It is an on-going consultation. When the report is published, the Scottish Executive will take a view of its own on fire pension schemes. If any changes were made to the fire pension scheme, current members would retain their existing rights and the new scheme would apply only to staff joining the fire service after the introduction of any new scheme.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C704968", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26644, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 410.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26645, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Partnership Agreement", "QuestionHeadingID": 26646, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 414.0, "DisplayOrder": 414.0, "ID": 26646, "ParentID": 26645 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "1. Mr Alex Salmond (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 415.0, "ContributionID": 704968, "EditedText": "Will the First Minister answer this in a phrase or two? To ask the Scottish Executive to explain how the partnership agreement lives up to the desire for radical change in Scottish society which is symbolised by the advent of Scotland's first Parliament for 300 years. (S1O-54)", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the First Minister answer this in a phrase or two? To ask the Scottish Executive to explain how the partnership agreement lives up to the desire for radical change in Scottish society which is symbolised by the advent of Scotland's first Parliament for 300 years. (S1O-54)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C704971", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26644, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 410.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26645, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Partnership Agreement", "QuestionHeadingID": 26646, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 414.0, "DisplayOrder": 414.0, "ID": 26646, "ParentID": 26645 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 421.0, "ContributionID": 704971, "EditedText": "I would not describe it as a toll tax. It is very important that we try to reduce the gridlock and congestion on motorways and in urban centres. In debate earlier today, there were some impassioned speeches from Alex Salmond's benches on the need to do something about urban congestion. Although people make those statements, when imaginative and difficult ideas are brought forward—difficult because we know that they will be controversial but believe that they must be examined—there is a barrage of criticism and complaint. There is a good deal of courage in the legislative programme that we announced, and the measures are an example of that.", "EditedTextHTML": "I would not describe it as a toll tax. It is very important that we try to reduce the gridlock and congestion on motorways and in urban centres. In debate earlier today, there were some impassioned speeches from Alex Salmond's benches on the need to do something about urban congestion. Although people make those statements, when imaginative and difficult ideas are brought forward—difficult because we know that they will be controversial but believe that they must be examined—there is a barrage of criticism and complaint. There is a good deal of courage in the legislative programme that we announced, and the measures are an example of that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C704975", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26644, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 410.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26645, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Partnership Agreement", "QuestionHeadingID": 26646, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 414.0, "DisplayOrder": 414.0, "ID": 26646, "ParentID": 26645 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 429.0, "ContributionID": 704975, "EditedText": "I imagine—and I suppose that this is a dolefully inadequate answer to that penetrating general matter of principle—that the Scottish Office will probably follow exactly the same procedure that it follows when we cross the Forth road bridge.", "EditedTextHTML": "I imagine—and I suppose that this is a dolefully inadequate answer to that penetrating general matter of principle—that the Scottish Office will probably follow exactly the same procedure that it follows when we cross the Forth road bridge.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C704976", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26644, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 410.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26645, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Partnership Agreement", "QuestionHeadingID": 26646, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 414.0, "DisplayOrder": 414.0, "ID": 26646, "ParentID": 26645 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 431.0, "ContributionID": 704976, "EditedText": "The taxpayer.", "EditedTextHTML": "The taxpayer.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C704979", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26644, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 410.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26645, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Partnership Agreement", "QuestionHeadingID": 26646, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 414.0, "DisplayOrder": 414.0, "ID": 26646, "ParentID": 26645 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan (Glasgow) (SSP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 437.0, "ContributionID": 704979, "EditedText": "In relation to the question about toll tax, will the First Minister introduce immediate legislation to bring us into line with England and Wales, and announce an amnesty for poll tax non-payers, in order to alleviate poverty in Scotland?", "EditedTextHTML": "In relation to the question about toll tax, will the First Minister introduce immediate legislation to bring us into line with England and Wales, and announce an amnesty for poll tax non-payers, in order to alleviate poverty in Scotland?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C704981", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26644, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 410.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26645, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Tax", "QuestionHeadingID": 26647, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 441.0, "DisplayOrder": 441.0, "ID": 26647, "ParentID": 26645 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "2. David McLetchie (Lothians) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 442.0, "ContributionID": 704981, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it plans to increase the tax burden on people resident in Scotland during this session of the Parliament. (S1O-24) The First Minister (Donald Dewar): As Mr McLetchie knows, \"Partnership for Scotland\" makes it clear that we will not use the tax-varying powers in the course of the first Parliament. After April 2000, people in Scotland will enjoy the benefits of the 1p reduction in the United Kingdom basic rate of income tax.", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive whether it plans to increase the tax burden on people resident in Scotland during this session of the Parliament. (S1O-24) The First Minister (Donald Dewar): As Mr McLetchie knows, \"Partnership for Scotland\" makes it clear that we will not use the tax-varying powers in the course of the first Parliament. After April 2000, people in Scotland will enjoy the benefits of the 1p reduction in the United Kingdom basic rate of income tax.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C704983", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26644, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 410.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26645, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Tax", "QuestionHeadingID": 26647, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 441.0, "DisplayOrder": 441.0, "ID": 26647, "ParentID": 26645 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 446.0, "ContributionID": 704983, "EditedText": "I know that Mr McLetchie finds the concept difficult to grasp, but the Parliament has no powers to raise charges or taxes that were not previously available to the Scottish Office. Apart from the 1p variation in income tax, there is nothing in the Scotland Act 1998 to give the Parliament powers that were not already available. If we do go down that road, it will be for a direct return, both in terms of the better management of our road system and our cities, and through the use of any funds that are raised in that way to address concerns about gridlock, greenhouse emissions and motorway queuing. I am not interested in raising taxation for the sake of it, but I am interested in seeing tax reform—such as that which is being implemented by the Chancellor of the Exchequer—in order to address opportunity in society. The new 10p band, the working families tax credit, the important and generous tax credits for nursery and pre-school care—which will come into effect later this year— are examples of how, without victimising people who earn more, we can use the tax system to unlock opportunity for those who have been denied it in the past.", "EditedTextHTML": "I know that Mr McLetchie finds the concept difficult to grasp, but the Parliament has no powers to raise charges or taxes that were not previously available to the Scottish Office. Apart from the 1p variation in income tax, there is nothing in the Scotland Act 1998 to give the Parliament powers that were not already available.

If we do go down that road, it will be for a direct return, both in terms of the better management of our road system and our cities, and through the use of any funds that are raised in that way to address concerns about gridlock, greenhouse emissions and motorway queuing.

I am not interested in raising taxation for the sake of it, but I am interested in seeing tax reform—such as that which is being implemented by the Chancellor of the Exchequer—in order to address opportunity in society. The new 10p band, the working families tax credit, the important and generous tax credits for nursery and pre-school care—which will come into effect later this year— are examples of how, without victimising people who earn more, we can use the tax system to unlock opportunity for those who have been denied it in the past.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C704985", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26644, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 410.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26645, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Tax", "QuestionHeadingID": 26647, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 441.0, "DisplayOrder": 441.0, "ID": 26647, "ParentID": 26645 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 450.0, "ContributionID": 704985, "EditedText": "I trust that I will not try Mr McLetchie's patience if I repeat what I have often said: the McIntosh commission report is due soon and a whole series of important consultations that we promised on the issue will also take place soon. I have made it clear repeatedly on behalf of my party, and I believe that it will be the view of the Administration, that we would not want in any way to put Scotland's commerce, industry and business at a competitive disadvantage against other parts of the United Kingdom. On that at least we can make common ground. Scottish business will be very pleased, for example, to note that the unemployment claimant count fell again this week and, at 5.5 per cent, is still the lowest that it has been since 1977. The International Labour Organisation unemployment figure fell by 11,000 and the numbers in employment went up by 7,000 in the quarter to the end of April. As a result of the management of the economy over the past two years, Scotland has a good, strong economic position, which, I assure Mr McLetchie, the Administration has no intention whatever of putting at risk.", "EditedTextHTML": "I trust that I will not try Mr McLetchie's patience if I repeat what I have often said: the McIntosh commission report is due soon and a whole series of important consultations that we promised on the issue will also take place soon. I have made it clear repeatedly on behalf of my party, and I believe that it will be the view of the Administration, that we would not want in any way to put Scotland's commerce, industry and business at a competitive disadvantage against other parts of the United Kingdom. On that at least we can make common ground.

Scottish business will be very pleased, for example, to note that the unemployment claimant count fell again this week and, at 5.5 per cent, is still the lowest that it has been since 1977. The International Labour Organisation unemployment figure fell by 11,000 and the numbers in employment went up by 7,000 in the quarter to the end of April. As a result of the management of the economy over the past two years, Scotland has a good, strong economic position, which, I assure Mr McLetchie, the Administration has no intention whatever of putting at risk.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1888E265P358C704986", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26644, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 410.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26645, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Tax", "QuestionHeadingID": 26647, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 441.0, "DisplayOrder": 441.0, "ID": 26647, "ParentID": 26645 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morgan, Alasdair", "ID": 1888, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Galloway and Upper Nithsdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morgan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alasdair Morgan (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 452.0, "ContributionID": 704986, "EditedText": "Given his desire to keep taxes down, what representations has the First Minister made, or will he make, to his friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer about the successive increases in road fuel tax? Those increases have had a dire effect on Scotland, particularly in the rural areas that I represent, where people on very low incomes often have no alternative but to own a car and pay the high taxes imposed by the Government.", "EditedTextHTML": "Given his desire to keep taxes down, what representations has the First Minister made, or will he make, to his friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer about the successive increases in road fuel tax? Those increases have had a dire effect on Scotland, particularly in the rural areas that I represent, where people on very low incomes often have no alternative but to own a car and pay the high taxes imposed by the Government.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C704987", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26644, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 410.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26645, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Tax", "QuestionHeadingID": 26647, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 441.0, "DisplayOrder": 441.0, "ID": 26647, "ParentID": 26645 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 454.0, "ContributionID": 704987, "EditedText": "That is why we are spending more—£13.5 million over three years— on urban transport. It is why we are helping some—not a lot, but some—rural petrol stations. And it is why we have asked the Office of Fair Trading to consider again the alleged profiteering among the petrol companies. One of the difficulties is that only about 0.25 per cent of petrol sales in this country are made in the Highlands and Islands, which unfortunately has a large land mass. Therefore, there are problems with petrol stations, which have a small throughput and have to push up margins in order to survive. That is the sort of issue that we will look at. We are introducing a whole range of initiatives, such as the substantial increase on remission of vehicle excise duties for lorries that have cleaner engines and the £55 annual reduction in vehicle excise duty for cars under 1,100 cc. As I am sure Alasdair Morgan accepts, we have a duty under the Kyoto accord to meet the CO2 emissions targets, which represent a substantial reduction of 12.5 per cent on the 1990 totals, by the period 2008 to 2010. People will recognise that that might mean some quite uncomfortable and difficult decisions, but we have to get the balance right. We cannot simply ignore the threat of greenhouse gases and global warming.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is why we are spending more—£13.5 million over three years— on urban transport. It is why we are helping some—not a lot, but some—rural petrol stations. And it is why we have asked the Office of Fair Trading to consider again the alleged profiteering among the petrol companies.

One of the difficulties is that only about 0.25 per cent of petrol sales in this country are made in the Highlands and Islands, which unfortunately has a large land mass. Therefore, there are problems with petrol stations, which have a small throughput and have to push up margins in order to survive. That is the sort of issue that we will look at.

We are introducing a whole range of initiatives, such as the substantial increase on remission of vehicle excise duties for lorries that have cleaner engines and the £55 annual reduction in vehicle excise duty for cars under 1,100 cc.

As I am sure Alasdair Morgan accepts, we have a duty under the Kyoto accord to meet the CO2 emissions targets, which represent a substantial reduction of 12.5 per cent on the 1990 totals, by the period 2008 to 2010. People will recognise that that might mean some quite uncomfortable and difficult decisions, but we have to get the balance right. We cannot simply ignore the threat of greenhouse gases and global warming.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C704989", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26644, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 410.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26645, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Children and Young People", "QuestionHeadingID": 26648, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 456.0, "DisplayOrder": 456.0, "ID": 26648, "ParentID": 26645 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Children and Education (Mr Sam Galbraith): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 459.0, "ContributionID": 704989, "EditedText": "The new legislative process will reflect the arrangements that were proposed in the consultative steering group report. We will ensure that children and young people's groups have an opportunity to comment on the issues that affect them. I will announce shortly how we intend to consult on the education bill and how young people can be involved in that process.", "EditedTextHTML": "The new legislative process will reflect the arrangements that were proposed in the consultative steering group report. We will ensure that children and young people's groups have an opportunity to comment on the issues that affect them. I will announce shortly how we intend to consult on the education bill and how young people can be involved in that process.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C704993", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Open Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26644, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 410.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26645, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 413.0, "QuestionHeading": "Children and Young People", "QuestionHeadingID": 26648, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 456.0, "DisplayOrder": 456.0, "ID": 26648, "ParentID": 26645 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Galbraith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 467.0, "ContributionID": 704993, "EditedText": "When young children's issues are addressed, it is important to ensure that views are taken on board, that there is a concordat and that there is consensus, as none of us has complete knowledge of those issues; few of us are in our youth, although we may think that we are. When they are ready, concordats will be presented here, and this chamber will make decisions on them.", "EditedTextHTML": "When young children's issues are addressed, it is important to ensure that views are taken on board, that there is a concordat and that there is consensus, as none of us has complete knowledge of those issues; few of us are in our youth, although we may think that we are.

When they are ready, concordats will be presented here, and this chamber will make decisions on them.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C704995", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 472.0, "ContributionID": 704995, "EditedText": "The next item of business is the motion on tuition fees in the name of Jim Wallace. I have selected amendment S1M-2.4 in the name of John Swinney. Mr Wallace will open the debate, and then the amendment will be moved. The debate will end shortly before 5 o'clock to allow time for the bureau motion on the setting up of committees. At the moment, I do not propose to put any time limit on speeches. I will wait to see how many members want to speak.", "EditedTextHTML": "The next item of business is the motion on tuition fees in the name of Jim Wallace. I have selected amendment S1M-2.4 in the name of John Swinney. Mr Wallace will open the debate, and then the amendment will be moved. The debate will end shortly before 5 o'clock to allow time for the bureau motion on the setting up of committees.

At the moment, I do not propose to put any time limit on speeches. I will wait to see how many members want to speak.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C704996", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice (Mr Jim Wallace): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 475.0, "ContributionID": 704996, "EditedText": "I welcome the fact that it has been possible to debate tuition fees and student finance so soon in the lifetime of this Parliament, given the importance that was attached to those issues in the election campaign. My party and the Executive place lifelong learning and the development of high quality further and higher education at centre stage and regard them as key factors in securing Scotland's future economic prosperity. Investment in higher and further education is also a necessity if we are to ensure that, as a nation, we provide each individual with the opportunity to develop his or her talents to the full. Scotland is rightly renowned for its university tradition. Many of our higher education establishments are acknowledged to be world class. We can boast the highest level of participation in the UK; almost 50 per cent of young Scots are in higher education, compared with 33 per cent of young people elsewhere in the UK. The transformation of the number of people gaining access to further and higher education, which has happened under Labour and Conservative Governments, has been a remarkable achievement. It has also thrown up deep concerns about the adequacy of funding for our universities. Across the UK, the record of the Tory party in power was a 40 per cent reduction in spending per student in higher education. Against that background, there was agreement among the parties that the crisis in higher education funding had to be addressed. However, it was clear that the parties approached the issue in different ways. Following the reports of the Dearing and Garrick committees, while my Liberal Democrat colleagues in the House of Commons and I were opposing the imposition of tuition fees, the Conservatives were arguing for the introduction of £1,000 tuition fees that would be payable by every student, regardless of income. To be fair—I always like to be fair—the Conservatives failed to support the second reading of the bill because of the Government's failure to provide for \"an independent review body to advise on any future changes in tuition fees.\"—Official Report, House of Commons, 16 March 1998; Vol 308, c 970. The Labour Government at Westminster opted for means-tested student loans and means-tested tuition fees. My party accepted that maintenance grants should be turned into loans, but the Liberal Democrats opposed the introduction of tuition fees—means tested or flat rate. That remains our position. We believe that the tradition of full-time higher education students paying no fees is important. We remain concerned that the imposition of tuition fees might be a barrier to increasing access. We have expressed concern about the 6 per cent reduction in applications to Scottish universities and the significantly higher fall in the number of mature students applying for a university place. We have expressed fears that, after the introduction of tuition fees, the amount payable by students will increase, or different fees will be introduced for different courses. It is clear that we disagree with the Labour party on those issues. That disagreement was apparent throughout the parliamentary debates on the establishment of tuition fees and throughout the election campaign for the Scottish Parliament. Those different points of view are acknowledged in the partnership agreement.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the fact that it has been possible to debate tuition fees and student finance so soon in the lifetime of this Parliament, given the importance that was attached to those issues in the election campaign.

My party and the Executive place lifelong learning and the development of high quality further and higher education at centre stage and regard them as key factors in securing Scotland's future economic prosperity. Investment in higher and further education is also a necessity if we are to ensure that, as a nation, we provide each individual with the opportunity to develop his or her talents to the full.

Scotland is rightly renowned for its university tradition. Many of our higher education establishments are acknowledged to be world class. We can boast the highest level of participation in the UK; almost 50 per cent of young Scots are in higher education, compared with 33 per cent of young people elsewhere in the UK.

The transformation of the number of people gaining access to further and higher education, which has happened under Labour and Conservative Governments, has been a remarkable achievement. It has also thrown up deep concerns about the adequacy of funding for our universities.

Across the UK, the record of the Tory party in power was a 40 per cent reduction in spending per student in higher education. Against that background, there was agreement among the parties that the crisis in higher education funding had to be addressed. However, it was clear that the parties approached the issue in different ways.

Following the reports of the Dearing and Garrick committees, while my Liberal Democrat colleagues in the House of Commons and I were opposing the imposition of tuition fees, the

Conservatives were arguing for the introduction of £1,000 tuition fees that would be payable by every student, regardless of income. To be fair—I always like to be fair—the Conservatives failed to support the second reading of the bill because of the Government's failure to provide for

\"an independent review body to advise on any future changes in tuition fees.\"—[Official Report, House of Commons, 16 March 1998; Vol 308, c 970.]

The Labour Government at Westminster opted for means-tested student loans and means-tested tuition fees. My party accepted that maintenance grants should be turned into loans, but the Liberal Democrats opposed the introduction of tuition fees—means tested or flat rate. That remains our position.

We believe that the tradition of full-time higher education students paying no fees is important. We remain concerned that the imposition of tuition fees might be a barrier to increasing access. We have expressed concern about the 6 per cent reduction in applications to Scottish universities and the significantly higher fall in the number of mature students applying for a university place. We have expressed fears that, after the introduction of tuition fees, the amount payable by students will increase, or different fees will be introduced for different courses.

It is clear that we disagree with the Labour party on those issues. That disagreement was apparent throughout the parliamentary debates on the establishment of tuition fees and throughout the election campaign for the Scottish Parliament. Those different points of view are acknowledged in the partnership agreement.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C705003", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ms Patricia Ferguson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 489.0, "ContributionID": 705003, "EditedText": "I call John Swinney to speak on amendment S1M-2.4, and then to move it formally.", "EditedTextHTML": "I call John Swinney to speak on amendment S1M-2.4, and then to move it formally.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2185E120P328C705006", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Brown, Robert", "ID": 2185, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robert Brown", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robert Brown (Glasgow) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 496.0, "ContributionID": 705006, "EditedText": "On a point of order, Deputy Presiding Officer. Is it in order for Mr Swinney to speak about the non-necessity of committees when his amendment proposes one?", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order, Deputy Presiding Officer. Is it in order for Mr Swinney to speak about the non-necessity of committees when his amendment proposes one?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C705007", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 498.0, "ContributionID": 705007, "EditedText": "That is not a point of order, Mr Brown.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is not a point of order, Mr Brown.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C705014", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Brian Monteith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 513.0, "ContributionID": 705014, "EditedText": "During the past couple of weeks, we have heard many complaints that the Parliament has avoided discussion about real issues that affect real people. Today, we have the chance to change that perception and to have a discussion and vote that make a difference to people's lives. We can go beyond the rhetoric and make a difference. I appeal to Liberal Democrat members to make the difference by putting their principles first. This amendment is all about giving them the opportunity to vote on the principle of abolishing fees while still having the benefit of an inquiry on student hardship. The principle is about free higher education, not the hardship that tuition fees might cause. If there is an inquiry into student financial hardship, no doubt tuition fees can be part of that equation, but today we are talking about the principle that higher education should be free. During the election campaign, the Scottish Liberal Democrats, the Scottish nationalist party— MEMBERS: \"The Scottish National party.\"—the Scottish National party, the Scottish Conservative party, the Greens, the Scottish Socialist party and Dennis Canavan all campaigned against tuition fees. We went round the houses, round the campuses—some of us even wore the tee-shirt— to campaign for the abolition of tuition fees. Unfortunately, after the electorate spoke and voted a majority of members for the abolition of tuition fees, the Liberal Democrats agreed to an inquiry in their willingness to cook up a deal. It can certainly be argued that an inquiry into student hardship is necessary, but the Liberal Democrats created a fudge by bringing tuition fees into the remit of that inquiry. Student hardship is undoubtedly a problem, and it will undoubtedly get worse.", "EditedTextHTML": "During the past couple of weeks, we have heard many complaints that the Parliament has avoided discussion about real issues that affect real people. Today, we have the chance to change that perception and to have a discussion and vote that make a difference to people's lives. We can go beyond the rhetoric and make a difference.

I appeal to Liberal Democrat members to make the difference by putting their principles first. This amendment is all about giving them the opportunity to vote on the principle of abolishing

fees while still having the benefit of an inquiry on student hardship.

The principle is about free higher education, not the hardship that tuition fees might cause. If there is an inquiry into student financial hardship, no doubt tuition fees can be part of that equation, but today we are talking about the principle that higher education should be free.

During the election campaign, the Scottish Liberal Democrats, the Scottish nationalist party— [MEMBERS: \"The Scottish National party.\"]—the Scottish National party, the Scottish Conservative party, the Greens, the Scottish Socialist party and Dennis Canavan all campaigned against tuition fees. We went round the houses, round the campuses—some of us even wore the tee-shirt— to campaign for the abolition of tuition fees.

Unfortunately, after the electorate spoke and voted a majority of members for the abolition of tuition fees, the Liberal Democrats agreed to an inquiry in their willingness to cook up a deal. It can certainly be argued that an inquiry into student hardship is necessary, but the Liberal Democrats created a fudge by bringing tuition fees into the remit of that inquiry.

Student hardship is undoubtedly a problem, and it will undoubtedly get worse.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C705015", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon (Argyll and Bute) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 515.0, "ContributionID": 705015, "EditedText": "Mr Monteith talks about the creation of student hardship and the principle of free higher education. Has he conveniently forgotten that it was a Tory Government that introduced 13 different measures to abolish free higher education, and that it was a Tory Government that created student hardship by abandoning the principle of free higher education during the 18 years the Tories were in power?", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Monteith talks about the creation of student hardship and the principle of free higher education. Has he conveniently forgotten that it was a Tory Government that introduced 13 different measures to abolish free higher education, and that it was a Tory Government that created student hardship by abandoning the principle of free higher education during the 18 years the Tories were in power?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C705017", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 519.0, "ContributionID": 705017, "EditedText": "Certainly—", "EditedTextHTML": "Certainly—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C705018", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 521.0, "ContributionID": 705018, "EditedText": "This is not a debate across the chamber, Mr Monteith.", "EditedTextHTML": "This is not a debate across the chamber, Mr Monteith.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C705019", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Monteith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 523.0, "ContributionID": 705019, "EditedText": "Mr Lyon should be reminded that it was under the Conservative Government that access to higher education expanded from 17 per cent to 43 per cent. If any Government had a commitment to expanding access to higher education it was the Conservative Government. Even with scant research, it is easy to find student financial hardship. In four Scottish universities that we have investigated, student debt to their institutions has risen. At the University of Dundee, for example, debt has risen by £100,000 since tuition fees were introduced. In the four institutions, debt currently stands at £1.9 million. There is absolutely no doubt of the need to alleviate student poverty. That is what Mr Swinney's amendment proposes. It also gives everyone—and the Liberal Democrats in particular—the opportunity to end the ill of tuition fees by voting today to abolish them. We could then come up with proposals as to how that could best be done—there will undoubtedly be different views on that. The Conservative party has already published a bill in the House of Lords and we have lodged motions on how tuition fees can be abolished. There is no doubt that there are ways of abolishing tuition fees to people's satisfaction. This amendment makes it clear that student hardship requires an inquiry, but that free higher education is a principle that this party—and many other parties here—should not give up on. We can end tuition fees.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Lyon should be reminded that it was under the Conservative Government that access to higher education expanded from 17 per cent to 43 per cent. If any Government had a commitment to expanding access to higher education it was the Conservative Government.

Even with scant research, it is easy to find student financial hardship. In four Scottish universities that we have investigated, student debt to their institutions has risen. At the University of Dundee, for example, debt has risen by £100,000 since tuition fees were introduced.

In the four institutions, debt currently stands at £1.9 million. There is absolutely no doubt of the need to alleviate student poverty. That is what Mr Swinney's amendment proposes. It also gives everyone—and the Liberal Democrats in particular—the opportunity to end the ill of tuition fees by voting today to abolish them. We could then come up with proposals as to how that could best be done—there will undoubtedly be different views on that.

The Conservative party has already published a bill in the House of Lords and we have lodged motions on how tuition fees can be abolished. There is no doubt that there are ways of abolishing tuition fees to people's satisfaction. This amendment makes it clear that student hardship requires an inquiry, but that free higher education is a principle that this party—and many other parties here—should not give up on. We can end tuition fees.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C705021", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Monteith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 527.0, "ContributionID": 705021, "EditedText": "No, it sounds like Stephen Dorrell. Our party has embraced devolution and is quite at home with the concept of creating policy for our party and our electorate in Scotland. We are free to make our own decisions. I hope that members of Mr Smith's party will be free to make their own decisions and to vote for the abolition of tuition fees. It is worth reminding the Liberal Democrats that in the past month their share of the vote has fallen from 13 to 9 per cent. The abolition of tuition fees is non-negotiable. We should not be discussing whether tuition fees should be abolished in the future, once they have been shown to cause hardship. We should be discussing abolishing tuition fees today. Where do all these fees stop? Will fees be introduced for hospital care—possibly means- tested to make the Government feel better about introducing them? Let us make sure that we end the concept of fees. Let us vote against the motion and for the amendment. The Liberals should seize the day.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, it sounds like Stephen Dorrell. Our party has embraced devolution and is quite at home with the concept of creating policy for our party and our electorate in Scotland. We are free to make our own decisions. I hope that members of Mr Smith's party will be free to make their own decisions and to vote for the abolition of tuition fees. It is worth reminding the Liberal Democrats that in the past month their share of the vote has fallen from 13 to 9 per cent.

The abolition of tuition fees is non-negotiable. We should not be discussing whether tuition fees should be abolished in the future, once they have been shown to cause hardship. We should be discussing abolishing tuition fees today.

Where do all these fees stop? Will fees be introduced for hospital care—possibly means- tested to make the Government feel better about introducing them? Let us make sure that we end the concept of fees. Let us vote against the motion and for the amendment. The Liberals should seize the day.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C705032", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 551.0, "ContributionID": 705032, "EditedText": "Will you wind up now, Mr Welsh?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will you wind up now, Mr Welsh?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C705034", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 555.0, "ContributionID": 705034, "EditedText": "Wind up, please.", "EditedTextHTML": "Wind up, please.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C705041", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 571.0, "ContributionID": 705041, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C705057", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 606.0, "ContributionID": 705057, "EditedText": "This afternoon I indicated that a time limit would be imposed. Members are not keeping to it. I am being flexible and giving additional time to those who take interventions, but there is a limit to how far I can go. We have to come to decision time at 5 pm and there is other business, so we must adhere to the programme that was outlined earlier.", "EditedTextHTML": "This afternoon I indicated that a time limit would be imposed. Members are not keeping to it. I am being flexible and giving additional time to those who take interventions, but there is a limit to how far I can go. We have to come to decision time at 5 pm and there is other business, so we must adhere to the programme that was outlined earlier.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1768E72P274C705059", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Murray, Elaine", "ID": 1768, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumfries" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Murray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Elaine Murray (Dumfries) (Lab) rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 611.0, "ContributionID": 705059, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1962E35P56C705060", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mundell, David", "ID": 1962, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Mundell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David Mundell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 613.0, "ContributionID": 705060, "EditedText": "That same night, my SNP opponent and I pledged ourselves to that same objective. Today, that opportunity is before the Parliament and I still hope that Liberal Democrat members will be prepared—I am sorry, Elaine, I did not see you.", "EditedTextHTML": "That same night, my SNP opponent and I pledged ourselves to that same objective. Today, that opportunity is before the Parliament and I still hope that Liberal Democrat members will be prepared—I am sorry, Elaine, I did not see you.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C705067", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 627.0, "ContributionID": 705067, "EditedText": "Will you wind up now, please, Mr Mundell.", "EditedTextHTML": "Will you wind up now, please, Mr Mundell.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.498473+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1962E35P56C705068", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mundell, David", "ID": 1962, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Mundell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David Mundell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 629.0, "ContributionID": 705068, "EditedText": "Mr Neil Wallace made another brave statement, following the declaration of the Scottish parliamentary election result. He declared that, on the basis of the rise in the Liberal Democrat vote, the Dumfries constituency had become a four-way marginal seat. Mr Wallace was not present on Sunday night when the European election count in Dumfries was declared. That demonstrated something quite different: a complete collapse in the Liberal Democrat vote, which was not unique to Dumfries. The Liberal Democrats lost in 10 of their constituencies, and came fourth in Aberdeen South—hardly a vote of confidence in our new deputy minister for lifelong learning.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Neil Wallace made another brave statement, following the declaration of the Scottish parliamentary election result. He declared that, on the basis of the rise in the Liberal Democrat vote, the Dumfries constituency had become a four-way marginal seat. Mr Wallace was not present on Sunday night when the European election count in Dumfries was declared. That demonstrated something quite different: a complete collapse in the Liberal Democrat vote, which was not unique to Dumfries. The Liberal

Democrats lost in 10 of their constituencies, and came fourth in Aberdeen South—hardly a vote of confidence in our new deputy minister for lifelong learning.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5141019+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1962E35P56C705070", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mundell, David", "ID": 1962, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Mundell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David Mundell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 633.0, "ContributionID": 705070, "EditedText": "I am spending plenty of time speaking to Liberal Democrat supporters, as should Liberal Democrat members. Those supporters are now much more favourably inclined to vote for the Conservatives because they know that we at least will stick to our commitments.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am spending plenty of time speaking to Liberal Democrat supporters, as should Liberal Democrat members. Those supporters are now much more favourably inclined to vote for the Conservatives because they know that we at least will stick to our commitments.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5141019+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C705071", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 635.0, "ContributionID": 705071, "EditedText": "I call Mr Duncan McNeil, who will be the last speaker unless he is brief.", "EditedTextHTML": "I call Mr Duncan McNeil, who will be the last speaker unless he is brief.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5141019+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1986E53P206C705074", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeil, Duncan", "ID": 1986, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Greenock and Inverclyde" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan McNeil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McNeil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 642.0, "ContributionID": 705074, "EditedText": "I think Colin Campbell must have misheard; I must have been talking too fast for him. I said that the experience of many people in further education colleges is that they must always pay; they either pay their own fees or employers pay them. That was my experience. To get an angle on the issue and to get a feel for the debate, I tried to exclude myself from the accusations, bluster and confusion of the political debate. I visited my local college, not only to better inform myself about the debate, but to establish a link between this Parliament and the college, including those at the sharp end of the debate. I found out that 76 per cent of students who attend that college pay no fees, and that only 4 per cent pay the full fees—53 out of 1,444 students.", "EditedTextHTML": "I think Colin Campbell must have misheard; I must have been talking too fast for him. I said that the experience of many people in further education colleges is that they must always pay; they either pay their own fees or employers pay them. That was my experience.

To get an angle on the issue and to get a feel for the debate, I tried to exclude myself from the accusations, bluster and confusion of the political debate. I visited my local college, not only to better inform myself about the debate, but to establish a link between this Parliament and the college, including those at the sharp end of the debate. I found out that 76 per cent of students who attend that college pay no fees, and that only 4 per cent pay the full fees—53 out of 1,444 students.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5141019+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C705075", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan (Glasgow) (SSP) rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 644.0, "ContributionID": 705075, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5297253+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1986E53P206C705078", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeil, Duncan", "ID": 1986, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Greenock and Inverclyde" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan McNeil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McNeil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 650.0, "ContributionID": 705078, "EditedText": "I fully support a wide-ranging review and all the—Laughter. Well, I do, and I think that it is very important to have a review and an independent inquiry to discuss all the issues. Dennis Canavan alluded earlier to the fact that there is more than one thing at issue here, and that is what I am trying to get at. As I said, I found the college in a period of investment and expansion. It is employing 12 new lecturers on a permanent basis. All those things are happening and we must take them into consideration. To vote against the inquiry and support the amendment would not automatically create fairness. I do not see how it could; it defies my logic. It would exclude the students, management and unions from the opportunity to participate in influencing the decision-making process. I thought that was what we were supposed to be about. Every action has a consequence. If we do not spend a bit of money on examining the issues, it could lead to poorer quality courses, fewer teachers and an end to the investment environment that we have now. We must, therefore, think hard and support the wide-ranging inquiry.", "EditedTextHTML": "I fully support a wide-ranging review and all the—[Laughter.] Well, I do, and I think that it is very important to have a review and an independent inquiry to discuss all the issues. Dennis Canavan alluded earlier to the fact that there is more than one thing at issue here, and that is what I am trying to get at.

As I said, I found the college in a period of investment and expansion. It is employing 12 new lecturers on a permanent basis. All those things are happening and we must take them into consideration.

To vote against the inquiry and support the amendment would not automatically create fairness. I do not see how it could; it defies my logic. It would exclude the students, management and unions from the opportunity to participate in influencing the decision-making process. I thought that was what we were supposed to be about.

Every action has a consequence. If we do not spend a bit of money on examining the issues, it could lead to poorer quality courses, fewer teachers and an end to the investment environment that we have now. We must, therefore, think hard and support the wide-ranging inquiry.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5297253+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C705079", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 652.0, "ContributionID": 705079, "EditedText": "I call Nicola Sturgeon to sum up for the amendment.", "EditedTextHTML": "I call Nicola Sturgeon to sum up for the amendment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5297253+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C705081", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Jim Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 657.0, "ContributionID": 705081, "EditedText": "Ms Sturgeon is being very selective. The manifesto says: \"Abolish tuition fees for all Scottish students at UK universities.\" The amendment would not do that. Under the proposal that she is asking us to vote for, Scottish students at English universities would still have to pay fees.", "EditedTextHTML": "Ms Sturgeon is being very selective. The manifesto says:

\"Abolish tuition fees for all Scottish students at UK universities.\"

The amendment would not do that. Under the proposal that she is asking us to vote for, Scottish students at English universities would still have to pay fees.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5297253+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C705090", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 676.0, "ContributionID": 705090, "EditedText": "In the spirit of listening, will Mr McLeish join me on 1 July and meet the student march against poverty, which is leaving Glasgow on 28 June and is supported by Glasgow Caledonian University Students Association and seven other university students associations?", "EditedTextHTML": "In the spirit of listening, will Mr McLeish join me on 1 July and meet the student march against poverty, which is leaving Glasgow on 28 June and is supported by Glasgow Caledonian University Students Association and seven other university students associations?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5297253+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C705091", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 678.0, "ContributionID": 705091, "EditedText": "I have signed up to meet the AUT, which has grave concerns about higher education. I am willing to consider Mr Sheridan's invitation, diaries permitting. What an amazing degree of consensus there is in the chamber this afternoon. I have heard people talk about widening access and about student hardship and maintenance grants. We have also heard about part-time students, mature students, colleges, bursaries, fees and fee waivers. As we are involved in the totality of funding, is it not prudent—without conceding our positions—for us not only to look at the matter in the context of student funding, but to ask, as the AUT does, \"What about the teaching infrastructure? What about the quality of higher and further education? What about the fact that £493 million is being injected into Scotland's higher and further education over the next three years?\" I tell my colleagues in this chamber that this issue is too serious for us to allow ourselves to get bogged down; we should not ignore the education community and the wishes of many members and just state that we will go forward with our plans.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have signed up to meet the AUT, which has grave concerns about higher education. I am willing to consider Mr Sheridan's invitation, diaries permitting.

What an amazing degree of consensus there is in the chamber this afternoon. I have heard people talk about widening access and about student hardship and maintenance grants. We have also heard about part-time students, mature students, colleges, bursaries, fees and fee waivers. As we are involved in the totality of funding, is it not prudent—without conceding our positions—for us not only to look at the matter in the context of student funding, but to ask, as the AUT does, \"What about the teaching infrastructure? What about the quality of higher and further education? What about the fact that £493 million is being injected into Scotland's higher and further education over the next three years?\" I tell my colleagues in this chamber that this issue is too serious for us to allow ourselves to get bogged down; we should not ignore the education community and the wishes of many members and just state that we will go forward with our plans.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5297253+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1876E194P490C705096", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Committees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26650, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 686.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 686.0, "ID": 26650, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Marwick, Tricia", "ID": 1876, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tricia Marwick", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tricia Marwick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 689.0, "ContributionID": 705096, "EditedText": "We cannot hear you at the back, Sir David.", "EditedTextHTML": "

We cannot hear you at the back, Sir David.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5297253+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C705103", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Committees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26650, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 686.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 686.0, "ID": 26650, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell (South of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 704.0, "ContributionID": 705103, "EditedText": "Will the minister confirm an important additional point? Now that the principle has been established that individual members or members of parties that have only one member should have committee places, we hope that it will last not just for this session, but for all time.", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister confirm an important additional point? Now that the principle has been established that individual members or members of parties that have only one member should have committee places, we hope that it will last not just for this session, but for all time.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5297253+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2228E151P202C705104", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Committees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26650, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 686.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 686.0, "ID": 26650, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McCabe, Tom", "ID": 2228, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Tom McCabe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McCabe: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 706.0, "ContributionID": 705104, "EditedText": "I am more than happy to confirm what Mr Russell has said. This is an important debate on an important motion. That is why I have stressed to Messrs Canavan and Sheridan that their amendments are very serious and go against the fine principles that the Parliamentary Bureau wants to establish. As I said, we sincerely want people to be represented on the committees and I therefore urgently request Messrs Canavan and Sheridan to reconsider their position. I believe that the commendable work of the four parties on the Parliamentary Bureau is an indication of the good way in which this Parliament can operate. I sincerely hope that the authors of the article in The Herald today take note of my words and have the good grace to correct the misinformation that appeared. I move,That the Parliament approves the membership and party from which the convener should be appointed for its committees set out as follows:European: Bruce Crawford, Winnie Ewing, Hugh Henry, Sylvia Jackson, Cathy Jamieson, Margo MacDonald, Maureen Macmillan, David Mundell, Irene Oldfather, Tavish Scott, Ben Wallace and Allan Wilson be members of the European Committee, the Convener to be appointed from the Labour Party; Equal Opportunities: Malcolm Chisholm, Johann Lamont, Marilyn Livingstone, Jamie McGrigor, Irene McGugan, Kate MacLean, Michael McMahon, Michael Matheson, John Munro, Nora Radcliffe, Shona Robison and Elaine Smith be members of the Equal Opportunities Committee, the Convener to be appointed from the Labour Party; Finance: David Davidson, Rhoda Grant, Adam Ingram, George Lyon, Kenneth Macintosh, Keith Raffan, Richard Simpson, John Swinney, Elaine Thomson, Mike Watson and Andrew Wilson be members of the Finance Committee, the Convener to be appointed from the Labour Party; Audit: Brian Adam, Scott Barrie, Cathie Craigie, Annabel Goldie, Margaret Jamieson, Nick Johnston, Lewis Macdonald, Paul Martin, Euan Robson, Andrew Welsh and Andrew Wilson be members of the Audit Committee, the Convener to be appointed from the Scottish National Party; Procedures: Donald Gorrie, Janis Hughes, Gordon Jackson, Andy Kerr, Gil Paterson, Michael Russell and Murray Tosh be members of the Procedures Committee, the Convener to be appointed from the Conservative Party; Standards: Patricia Ferguson, Karen Gillon, James Douglas- Hamilton, Adam Ingram, Des McNulty, Tricia Marwick and Mike Rumbles be members of the Standards Committee, the Convener to be appointed from the Liberal Democrat Party; Public Petitions: Helen Eadie, Phil Gallie, Christine Grahame, John McAllion, Pauline McNeill, Margaret Smith and Sandra White be members of the Public Petitions Committee, the Convener to be appointed from the Labour Party; Subordinate Legislation: Fergus Ewing, Trish Godman, Ian Jenkins, Kenny MacAskill, Bristow Muldoon, David Mundell and Ian Welsh be members of the Subordinate Legislation Committee, the Convener to be appointed from the Scottish National Party; Justice and Home Affairs: Scott Barrie, Roseanna Cunningham, Phil Gallie, Christine Grahame, Gordon Jackson, Lyndsay McIntosh, Kate MacLean, Maureen Macmillan, Pauline McNeill, Tricia Marwick and Euan Robson be members of the Justice and Home Affairs Committee, the Convener to be appointed from the Scottish National Party; Education, Culture and Sport: Karen Gillon, Ian Jenkins, Kenneth Macintosh, Fiona McLeod, Brian Monteith, Mary Mulligan, Cathy Peattie, Michael Russell, Jamie Stone, Nicola Sturgeon and Ian Welsh be members of the Education, Culture and Sport Committee, the Convener to be appointed from the Labour Party; Social Inclusion, Housing and Voluntary Sector: Bill Aitken, Robert Brown, Cathie Craigie, Margaret Curran, Fiona Hyslop, John McAllion, Alex Neil, Lloyd Quinan, Keith Raffan, Mike Watson and Karen Whitefield be members of the Social Inclusion, Housing and Voluntary Sector Committee, the Convener to be appointed from the Labour Party; Enterprise and Lifelong Learning: Fergus Ewing, Annabel Goldie, Nick Johnston, Marilyn Livingstone, George Lyon, Margo MacDonald, Duncan McNeil, Elaine Murray, John Swinney, Elaine Thomson and Allan Wilson be members of the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee, the Convener to be appointed from the Scottish National Party; Health and Community Care: Malcolm Chisholm, Dorothy-Grace Elder, Duncan Hamilton, Hugh Henry, Margaret Jamieson, Irene Oldfather, Mary Scanlon, Richard Simpson, Margaret Smith, Kay Ullrich and Ben Wallace be members of the Health and Community Care Committee, the Convener to be appointed from the Liberal Democrat Party; Transport and the Environment: Helen Eadie, Linda Fabiani, Janis Hughes, Cathy Jamieson, Andy Kerr, Kenny MacAskill, Des McNulty, Nora Radcliffe, Tavish Scott and Murray Tosh be members of the Transport and the Environment Committee, the Convener to be appointed from the Labour Party; Rural Affairs: Alex Fergusson, Rhoda Grant, Alex Johnstone, Richard Lochhead, Lewis Macdonald, Irene McGugan, Alasdair Morgan, John Munro, Elaine Murray, Cathy Peattie and Mike Rumbles be members of the Rural Affairs Committee, the Convener to be appointed from the Conservative Party; Local Government: Colin Campbell, Kenneth Gibson, Trish Godman, Donald Gorrie, Keith Harding, Sylvia Jackson, Johann Lamont, Michael McMahon, Bristow Muldoon, Gil Paterson and Jamie Stone be members of the Local Government Committee, the Convener to be appointed from the Labour Party.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am more than happy to confirm what Mr Russell has said. This is an important debate on an important motion. That is why I have stressed to Messrs Canavan and Sheridan that their amendments are very serious and go against the fine principles that the Parliamentary Bureau wants to establish. As I said, we sincerely want people to be represented on the committees and I therefore urgently request Messrs Canavan and Sheridan to reconsider their position.

I believe that the commendable work of the four parties on the Parliamentary Bureau is an indication of the good way in which this Parliament can operate. I sincerely hope that the authors of the article in The Herald today take note of my words and have the good grace to correct the misinformation that appeared.

I move,

That the Parliament approves the membership and party from which the convener should be appointed for its committees set out as follows:

European: Bruce Crawford, Winnie Ewing, Hugh Henry, Sylvia Jackson, Cathy Jamieson, Margo MacDonald, Maureen Macmillan, David Mundell, Irene Oldfather, Tavish Scott, Ben Wallace and Allan Wilson be members of the European Committee, the Convener to be appointed from the Labour Party;

Equal Opportunities: Malcolm Chisholm, Johann Lamont, Marilyn Livingstone, Jamie McGrigor, Irene McGugan, Kate MacLean, Michael McMahon, Michael Matheson, John Munro, Nora Radcliffe, Shona Robison and Elaine Smith be members of the Equal Opportunities Committee, the Convener to be appointed from the Labour Party;

Finance: David Davidson, Rhoda Grant, Adam Ingram, George Lyon, Kenneth Macintosh, Keith Raffan, Richard Simpson, John Swinney, Elaine Thomson, Mike Watson and Andrew Wilson be members of the Finance Committee, the Convener to be appointed from the Labour Party;

Audit: Brian Adam, Scott Barrie, Cathie Craigie, Annabel Goldie, Margaret Jamieson, Nick Johnston, Lewis Macdonald, Paul Martin, Euan Robson, Andrew Welsh and Andrew Wilson be members of the Audit Committee, the Convener to be appointed from the Scottish National Party;

Procedures: Donald Gorrie, Janis Hughes, Gordon Jackson, Andy Kerr, Gil Paterson, Michael Russell and Murray Tosh be members of the Procedures Committee, the Convener to be appointed from the Conservative Party;

Standards: Patricia Ferguson, Karen Gillon, James Douglas- Hamilton, Adam Ingram, Des McNulty, Tricia Marwick and Mike Rumbles be members of the Standards Committee, the Convener to be appointed from the Liberal Democrat Party;

Public Petitions: Helen Eadie, Phil Gallie, Christine Grahame, John McAllion, Pauline McNeill, Margaret Smith and Sandra White be members of the Public Petitions Committee, the Convener to be appointed from the Labour Party;

Subordinate Legislation: Fergus Ewing, Trish Godman, Ian Jenkins, Kenny MacAskill, Bristow Muldoon, David Mundell and Ian Welsh be members of the Subordinate Legislation Committee, the Convener to be appointed from the Scottish National Party;

Justice and Home Affairs: Scott Barrie, Roseanna Cunningham, Phil Gallie, Christine Grahame, Gordon Jackson, Lyndsay McIntosh, Kate MacLean, Maureen Macmillan, Pauline McNeill, Tricia Marwick and Euan Robson be members of the Justice and Home Affairs Committee, the Convener to be appointed from the Scottish National Party;

Education, Culture and Sport: Karen Gillon, Ian Jenkins, Kenneth Macintosh, Fiona McLeod, Brian Monteith, Mary Mulligan, Cathy Peattie, Michael Russell, Jamie Stone, Nicola Sturgeon and Ian Welsh be members of the Education, Culture and Sport Committee, the Convener to be appointed from the Labour Party;

Social Inclusion, Housing and Voluntary Sector: Bill Aitken, Robert Brown, Cathie Craigie, Margaret Curran, Fiona Hyslop, John McAllion, Alex Neil, Lloyd Quinan, Keith Raffan, Mike Watson and Karen Whitefield be members of the Social Inclusion, Housing and Voluntary Sector Committee, the Convener to be appointed from the Labour Party;

Enterprise and Lifelong Learning: Fergus Ewing, Annabel Goldie, Nick Johnston, Marilyn Livingstone, George Lyon, Margo MacDonald, Duncan McNeil, Elaine Murray, John Swinney, Elaine Thomson and Allan Wilson be members of the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee, the Convener to be appointed from the Scottish National Party;

Health and Community Care: Malcolm Chisholm, Dorothy-Grace Elder, Duncan Hamilton, Hugh Henry, Margaret Jamieson, Irene Oldfather, Mary Scanlon, Richard Simpson, Margaret Smith, Kay Ullrich and Ben Wallace be members of the Health and Community Care Committee, the Convener to be appointed from the Liberal Democrat Party;

Transport and the Environment: Helen Eadie, Linda Fabiani, Janis Hughes, Cathy Jamieson, Andy Kerr, Kenny MacAskill, Des McNulty, Nora Radcliffe, Tavish Scott and Murray Tosh be members of the Transport and the Environment Committee, the Convener to be appointed from the Labour Party;

Rural Affairs: Alex Fergusson, Rhoda Grant, Alex Johnstone, Richard Lochhead, Lewis Macdonald, Irene McGugan, Alasdair Morgan, John Munro, Elaine Murray, Cathy Peattie and Mike Rumbles be members of the Rural Affairs Committee, the Convener to be appointed from the Conservative Party;

Local Government: Colin Campbell, Kenneth Gibson, Trish Godman, Donald Gorrie, Keith Harding, Sylvia Jackson, Johann Lamont, Michael McMahon, Bristow Muldoon, Gil Paterson and Jamie Stone be members of the Local Government Committee, the Convener to be appointed from the Labour Party.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5297253+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C705109", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Committees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26650, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 686.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 686.0, "ID": 26650, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan (Falkirk West): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 718.0, "ContributionID": 705109, "EditedText": "There were great hopes and expectations that the Scottish Parliament would herald a new era of inclusive democracy. It would be a great pity if members were excluded from membership of committees simply because they are members of minority parties. After all, we are all members of minority parties or, like me, a member of no party at all. There is no mention of Robin Harper, Tommy Sheridan or me in any of the committees listed in Mr McCabe's motion. If he is offering us a place on a committee, this is the first official word that I have heard of it. The Parliamentary Bureau is behaving like some secretive politburo instead of being accountable to the Parliament as a whole and attempting to communicate with all members. I accept that we have no right to sit on the business bureau, but surely we have a right to regular communication from the people who are on the bureau. That is why we wrote to you, Mr Presiding Officer. We understand that you chair the business bureau. The three of us wrote a joint letter to you, stating our preferences for the committees of which we would like to be members. What did we get in response? We have had no response at all from Mr McCabe; all we have had is the motion in which none of us is mentioned as a member of any committee. I have nothing personal against Keith Raffan; I remember when he was a Tory MP in another place, although he has changed his colours a bit since then—or has he? If my two amendments were passed, Keith would still be a member of two committees, the Finance Committee and the Equal Opportunities Committee, and Tommy Sheridan would have membership of only one, the Social Inclusion, Housing and Voluntary Sector Committee. In support of my amendments, I must remind members that Tommy represents Glasgow, which has a high incidence of social inclusion— Laughter rather, social exclusion as well as social inclusion—and housing problems. The role of the voluntary sector in the city of Glasgow is very important indeed. Therefore, it would be appropriate for Tommy Sheridan to be a member of that committee. I move amendments S1M-53.3 and S1M-53.4.", "EditedTextHTML": "There were great hopes and expectations that the Scottish Parliament would herald a new era of inclusive democracy. It would be a great pity if members were excluded from membership of committees simply because they are members of minority parties. After all, we are all members of minority parties or, like me, a member of no party at all.

There is no mention of Robin Harper, Tommy Sheridan or me in any of the committees listed in Mr McCabe's motion. If he is offering us a place on a committee, this is the first official word that I have heard of it. The Parliamentary Bureau is behaving like some secretive politburo instead of being accountable to the Parliament as a whole and attempting to communicate with all members. I accept that we have no right to sit on the

business bureau, but surely we have a right to regular communication from the people who are on the bureau.

That is why we wrote to you, Mr Presiding Officer. We understand that you chair the business bureau. The three of us wrote a joint letter to you, stating our preferences for the committees of which we would like to be members. What did we get in response? We have had no response at all from Mr McCabe; all we have had is the motion in which none of us is mentioned as a member of any committee.

I have nothing personal against Keith Raffan; I remember when he was a Tory MP in another place, although he has changed his colours a bit since then—or has he? If my two amendments were passed, Keith would still be a member of two committees, the Finance Committee and the Equal Opportunities Committee, and Tommy Sheridan would have membership of only one, the Social Inclusion, Housing and Voluntary Sector Committee.

In support of my amendments, I must remind members that Tommy represents Glasgow, which has a high incidence of social inclusion— [Laughter] rather, social exclusion as well as social inclusion—and housing problems. The role of the voluntary sector in the city of Glasgow is very important indeed. Therefore, it would be appropriate for Tommy Sheridan to be a member of that committee.

I move amendments S1M-53.3 and S1M-53.4.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5297253+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C705111", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Committees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26650, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 686.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 686.0, "ID": 26650, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 723.0, "ContributionID": 705111, "EditedText": "I was surprised to hear that there was no knowledge of individuals going on to committees, because discussions about that have been taking place for some time. I am sure that Mr Harper will acknowledge that I told him 10 days ago what the proposal was in terms of individual committees. It was suggested that the proposal should be discussed amongst the three members. That does not seem to have been done and I regret that. It is rather arcane, perhaps, but if members count the number of places on each committee they will find that there is one vacancy on the European Committee, one vacancy on the Equal Opportunities Committee and one vacancy on the Transport and the Environment Committee. In the absence of other members rushing forward to fill those places, the obvious intention is that the three members should sit on the committees in which the other parties have vacated places.", "EditedTextHTML": "I was surprised to hear that there was no knowledge of individuals going on to committees, because discussions about that have been taking place for some time. I am sure that Mr Harper will acknowledge that I told him 10 days ago what the proposal was in terms of individual committees. It was suggested that the proposal should be discussed amongst the three members. That does not seem to have been done and I regret that.

It is rather arcane, perhaps, but if members count the number of places on each committee they will find that there is one vacancy on the European Committee, one vacancy on the Equal Opportunities Committee and one vacancy on the Transport and the Environment Committee. In the absence of other members rushing forward to fill those places, the obvious intention is that the three members should sit on the committees in which the other parties have vacated places.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5297253+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C705113", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26651, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 727.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 727.0, "ID": 26651, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 729.0, "ContributionID": 705113, "EditedText": "We now move to decision time. I hope that everyone can hear me, as I will be putting important questions on the three motions. The first question is, that amendment S1M-52.1, in the name of Donald Gorrie, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "We now move to decision time. I hope that everyone can hear me, as I will be putting important questions on the three motions.

The first question is, that amendment S1M-52.1, in the name of Donald Gorrie, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5297253+00:00" }, { "ID": "C705114", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26651, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 727.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 727.0, "ID": 26651, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 731.0, "ContributionID": 705114, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5297253+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C705117", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26651, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 727.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 727.0, "ID": 26651, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 736.0, "ContributionID": 705117, "EditedText": "The result of the division is as follows: For 61, Against 64, Abstentions 0.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result of the division is as follows: For 61, Against 64, Abstentions 0.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5297253+00:00" }, { "ID": "C705118", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26651, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 727.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 727.0, "ID": 26651, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 738.0, "ContributionID": 705118, "EditedText": "Amendment disagreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment disagreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5297253+00:00" }, { "ID": "C705120", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26651, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 727.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 727.0, "ID": 26651, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 741.0, "ContributionID": 705120, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5297253+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C705126", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26651, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 727.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 727.0, "ID": 26651, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 750.0, "ContributionID": 705126, "EditedText": "In my capacity as chairman of the corporate body, I wish to say that we will take forward the Parliament's decision and that we shall do so openly, with maximum consultation and listening to constructive criticism as we go. I hope that, in that spirit, the Parliament will unite behind the decision that has just been reached and the efforts of the corporate body to implement it.", "EditedTextHTML": "In my capacity as chairman of the corporate body, I wish to say that we will take forward the Parliament's decision and that we shall do so openly, with maximum consultation and listening to constructive criticism as we go. I hope that, in that spirit, the Parliament will unite behind the decision that has just been reached and the efforts of the corporate body to implement it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5297253+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C705128", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26651, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 727.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 727.0, "ID": 26651, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 754.0, "ContributionID": 705128, "EditedText": "I am sorry, I could not hear your question, Mr Wilson.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry, I could not hear your question, Mr Wilson.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5297253+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C705130", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26651, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 727.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 727.0, "ID": 26651, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 758.0, "ContributionID": 705130, "EditedText": "We shall certainly have access to confidential material but, as we will be the clients, we have to be very careful about such material being passed around. Members will have to rely on us and on our judgment in these matters and, as I implied in my statement, members should bring any criticism of the project direct to me or to any of the five members of the corporate body. We will be as open as we can be, within the limits of normal commercial practice. The next question before the chamber is, that amendment SM1-2.4, in the name of John Swinney, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "We shall certainly have access to confidential material but, as we will be the clients, we have to be very careful about such material being passed around. Members will have to rely on us and on our judgment in these matters and, as I implied in my statement, members should bring any criticism of the project direct to me or to any of the five members of the corporate body. We will be as open as we can be, within the limits of normal commercial practice.

The next question before the chamber is, that amendment SM1-2.4, in the name of John

Swinney, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5297253+00:00" }, { "ID": "C705144", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26651, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 727.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 727.0, "ID": 26651, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 781.0, "ContributionID": 705144, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5297253+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C705134", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26651, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 727.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 727.0, "ID": 26651, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 765.0, "ContributionID": 705134, "EditedText": "The result of the division is as follows: For 56, Against 69, Abstentions 0.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result of the division is as follows: For 56, Against 69, Abstentions 0.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5297253+00:00" }, { "ID": "C705135", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26651, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 727.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 727.0, "ID": 26651, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 767.0, "ContributionID": 705135, "EditedText": "Amendment disagreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment disagreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5297253+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C705138", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26651, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 727.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 727.0, "ID": 26651, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 772.0, "ContributionID": 705138, "EditedText": "There will be a division. Members should vote yes to agree with the motion, no to disagree with the motion, and abstain to record an abstention. Members should vote now.", "EditedTextHTML": "There will be a division. Members should vote yes to agree with the motion, no to disagree with the motion, and abstain to record an abstention. Members should vote now.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5297253+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C705140", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26651, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 727.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 727.0, "ID": 26651, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 775.0, "ContributionID": 705140, "EditedText": "The result of the division is as follows: For 70, Against 52, Abstentions 2.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result of the division is as follows: For 70, Against 52, Abstentions 2.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5297253+00:00" }, { "ID": "C705141", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26651, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 727.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 727.0, "ID": 26651, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 777.0, "ContributionID": 705141, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5297253+00:00" }, { "ID": "C705148", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26651, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 727.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 727.0, "ID": 26651, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 788.0, "ContributionID": 705148, "EditedText": "Amendment disagreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment disagreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5297253+00:00" }, { "ID": "C705150", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26651, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 727.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 727.0, "ID": 26651, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 791.0, "ContributionID": 705150, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5297253+00:00" }, { "ID": "C705152", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26651, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 727.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 727.0, "ID": 26651, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 795.0, "ContributionID": 705152, "EditedText": "FOR Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West) Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green) Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP) AGAINST Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Crawford, Bruce JP (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)Mackay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)(LD)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)

AGAINST

Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Crawford, Bruce JP (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Mackay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)
(LD)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5297253+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C705153", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26651, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 727.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 727.0, "ID": 26651, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 796.0, "ContributionID": 705153, "EditedText": "The result of the division is as follows: For 3, Against 121, Abstentions 0.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result of the division is as follows: For 3, Against 121, Abstentions 0.

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" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5297253+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C705159", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26651, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 727.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 727.0, "ID": 26651, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 806.0, "ContributionID": 705159, "EditedText": "The result of the division is as follows: For 3, Against 121, Abstentions 0.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result of the division is as follows: For 3, Against 121, Abstentions 0.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5297253+00:00" }, { "ID": "C705160", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26651, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 727.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 727.0, "ID": 26651, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 808.0, "ContributionID": 705160, "EditedText": "Amendment disagreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment disagreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5297253+00:00" }, { "ID": "C705168", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26651, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 727.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 727.0, "ID": 26651, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 821.0, "ContributionID": 705168, "EditedText": "Amendment agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5453475+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C705170", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26651, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 727.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 727.0, "ID": 26651, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan (Falkirk West): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 824.0, "ContributionID": 705170, "EditedText": "On a point of order, is the motion in Tom McCabe's name in order? As I understand it after previous explanation, the Parliament decided on a previous occasion that the European Committee and the Equal Opportunities Committee should have 13 members. Only 12 members are listed, so is the motion technically in order?", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order, is the motion in Tom McCabe's name in order? As I understand it after previous explanation, the Parliament decided on a previous occasion that the European Committee and the Equal Opportunities Committee should have 13 members. Only 12 members are listed, so is the motion technically in order?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5453475+00:00" }, { "ID": "C705172", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26651, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 727.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 727.0, "ID": 26651, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 828.0, "ContributionID": 705172, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5453475+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C705173", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26651, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 727.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 727.0, "ID": 26651, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 830.0, "ContributionID": 705173, "EditedText": "There will be a division. This has been a test of our voting system, which has held up well. Members should vote yes to agree with the amendment, no to disagree with the amendment and abstain to record an abstention.", "EditedTextHTML": "There will be a division. This has been a test of our voting system, which has held up well. Members should vote yes to agree with the amendment, no to disagree with

the amendment and abstain to record an abstention.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5453475+00:00" }, { "ID": "C705174", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26651, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 727.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 727.0, "ID": 26651, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 832.0, "ContributionID": 705174, "EditedText": "FOR Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Crawford, Bruce JP (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)Mackay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)AGAINST Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West) Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP) ABSTENTIONS Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Crawford, Bruce JP (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Mackay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)

AGAINST

Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)

ABSTENTIONS

Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5453475+00:00" }, { "ID": "C705177", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26651, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 727.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 727.0, "ID": 26651, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 836.0, "ContributionID": 705177, "EditedText": "That the Parliament approves the membership and party from which the convener should be appointed for its committees set out as follows:", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament approves the membership and party from which the convener should be appointed for its committees set out as follows:

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5453475+00:00" }, { "ID": "C705182", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26651, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 727.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 727.0, "ID": 26651, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 841.0, "ContributionID": 705182, "EditedText": "Procedures: Donald Gorrie, Janis Hughes, Gordon Jackson, Andy Kerr, Gil Paterson, Michael Russell and Murray Tosh be members of the Procedures Committee, the Convener to be appointed from the Conservative Party;", "EditedTextHTML": "Procedures: Donald Gorrie, Janis Hughes, Gordon Jackson, Andy Kerr, Gil Paterson, Michael Russell and Murray Tosh be members of the Procedures Committee, the Convener to be appointed from the Conservative Party;

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5453475+00:00" }, { "ID": "C705187", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26651, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 727.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 727.0, "ID": 26651, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 846.0, "ContributionID": 705187, "EditedText": "Education, Culture and Sport: Karen Gillon, Ian Jenkins, Kenneth Macintosh, Fiona McLeod, Brian Monteith, Mary Mulligan, Cathy Peattie, Michael Russell, Jamie Stone, Nicola Sturgeon and Ian Welsh be members of the Education, Culture and Sport Committee, the Convener to be appointed from the Labour Party;", "EditedTextHTML": "Education, Culture and Sport: Karen Gillon, Ian Jenkins, Kenneth Macintosh, Fiona McLeod, Brian Monteith, Mary Mulligan, Cathy Peattie, Michael Russell, Jamie Stone, Nicola Sturgeon and Ian Welsh be members of the Education, Culture and Sport Committee, the Convener to be appointed from the Labour Party;

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5453475+00:00" }, { "ID": "C705188", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26651, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 727.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 727.0, "ID": 26651, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 847.0, "ContributionID": 705188, "EditedText": "Social Inclusion, Housing and Voluntary Sector: Bill Aitken, Robert Brown, Cathie Craigie, Margaret Curran, Fiona Hyslop, John McAllion, Alex Neil, Lloyd Quinan, Keith Raffan, Mike Watson and Karen Whitefield be members of the Social Inclusion, Housing and Voluntary Sector Committee, the Convener to be appointed from the Labour Party;", "EditedTextHTML": "Social Inclusion, Housing and Voluntary Sector: Bill Aitken, Robert Brown, Cathie Craigie, Margaret Curran, Fiona Hyslop, John McAllion, Alex Neil, Lloyd Quinan, Keith Raffan, Mike Watson and Karen Whitefield be members of the Social Inclusion, Housing and Voluntary Sector Committee, the Convener to be appointed from the Labour Party;

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5453475+00:00" }, { "ID": "C705192", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26651, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 727.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 727.0, "ID": 26651, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 851.0, "ContributionID": 705192, "EditedText": "Rural Affairs: Alex Fergusson, Rhoda Grant, Alex Johnstone, Richard Lochhead, Lewis Macdonald, Irene McGugan, Alasdair Morgan, John Munro, Elaine Murray, Cathy Peattie and Mike Rumbles be members of the Rural Affairs Committee, the Convener to be appointed from the Conservative Party;", "EditedTextHTML": "Rural Affairs: Alex Fergusson, Rhoda Grant, Alex Johnstone, Richard Lochhead, Lewis Macdonald, Irene McGugan, Alasdair Morgan, John Munro, Elaine Murray, Cathy Peattie and Mike Rumbles be members of the Rural Affairs Committee, the Convener to be appointed from the Conservative Party;

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.5453475+00:00" }, { "ID": "C705193", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26651, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 727.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 727.0, "ID": 26651, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 852.0, "ContributionID": 705193, "EditedText": "Local Government: Colin Campbell, Kenneth Gibson, Trish Godman, Donald Gorrie, Keith Harding, Sylvia Jackson, Johann Lamont, Michael McMahon, Bristow Muldoon, Gil Paterson and Jamie Stone be members of the Local Government Committee, the Convener to be appointed from the Labour Party.", "EditedTextHTML": "Local Government: Colin Campbell, Kenneth Gibson, Trish Godman, Donald Gorrie, Keith Harding, Sylvia Jackson, Johann Lamont, Michael McMahon, Bristow Muldoon, Gil Paterson and Jamie Stone be members of the Local Government Committee, the Convener to be appointed from the Labour Party.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "C705195", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26651, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 727.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 727.0, "ID": 26651, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 855.0, "ContributionID": 705195, "EditedText": "Meeting closed at 17:21.", "EditedTextHTML": "Meeting closed at 17:21.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:10.4671959+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1870E181P475C705055", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robison, Shona", "ID": 1870, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Shona Robison", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Shona Robison (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 602.0, "ContributionID": 705055, "EditedText": "The issue concerns the principle of free education. Today, we are seeking to make a start on reestablishing free education, first, by abolishing tuition fees. Every member—Mike Rumbles—has the opportunity to do that today. We all know that tuition fees are a deeply unpopular measure introduced by the Labour Government. It was Pauline's Government that abolished the remnants of the maintenance grant, in case she has forgotten. Tuition fees are unpopular not just with those who have to pay them, but with 65 per cent of people who have expressed, in recent polls, their opposition to them. Support for their abolition has come from various quarters. Only this morning, we received a deputation from Dundee City Council, which, last Monday, passed a motion in support of the widespread campaign of opposition to tuition fees. It is clearly the will of the people to abolish tuition fees. They elected 73 of us to do just that. We are supposed to be here to represent their wishes: we can do that today by supporting the amendment. Many members benefited from free education. Perhaps they would not be here today if they had not done so, yet they wish to deny that opportunity to others. The impact of the attacks on free education can already be seen with the 6 per cent drop in university applications. To argue, as Labour members often do, that abolition of tuition fees benefits the well-off is utter nonsense. Over the past few weeks we have heard a number of speeches claiming \"I'm more working class than thou\". I do not intend to make one myself, but I was the first person in my family to have a university degree and I know that if the education system of today had been in operation then, I would not have gone to university and I would not be here today. It sounds crass to talk about abolishing tuition fees as benefiting the better-off when we are earning a minimum of £40,000 a year and many ministers are earning £70,000 to £80,000. Jack McConnell's household income is probably more than all of ours collectively. We talk nevertheless about better-off people. Are they the clerical worker and the joiner with a joint income of £17,000, who have to pay tuition fees? Is it the spouse who earns £14,000 and who has to contribute to their partner's tuition fees? Or is it the postman and the nurse, who pay full tuition fees? Are these the better-off people that we are talking about? I do not think so. The amendment allows us to go further than abolishing tuition fees because it gives us the opportunity to re-establish a free education system—and we have to look at student maintenance to do that. The First Minister talked yesterday of the need to achieve a Scottish education system of excellent quality. The state of an education system says a lot about a society. I would have thought that the message that we want to send out is that Scotland has an education system that is free at the point of delivery, not one based on ability to pay. The quickest way to abolish tuition fees is not to have an inquiry but to vote for the amendment today, which I urge members to do so that we can begin to return Scotland to a system of free education.", "EditedTextHTML": "The issue concerns the principle of free education. Today, we are seeking to make a start on reestablishing free education, first, by abolishing tuition fees. Every member—Mike Rumbles—has the opportunity to do that today. We all know that tuition fees are a deeply unpopular measure introduced by the Labour Government. It was Pauline's Government that abolished the remnants of the maintenance grant, in case she has forgotten. Tuition fees are unpopular not just with those who have to pay them, but with 65 per cent of people who have expressed, in recent polls, their opposition to them.

Support for their abolition has come from various quarters. Only this morning, we received a deputation from Dundee City Council, which, last Monday, passed a motion in support of the widespread campaign of opposition to tuition fees. It is clearly the will of the people to abolish tuition fees. They elected 73 of us to do just that. We are supposed to be here to represent their wishes: we can do that today by supporting the amendment. Many members benefited from free education. Perhaps they would not be here today if they had not done so, yet they wish to deny that opportunity to others.

The impact of the attacks on free education can already be seen with the 6 per cent drop in university applications. To argue, as Labour members often do, that abolition of tuition fees benefits the well-off is utter nonsense. Over the past few weeks we have heard a number of speeches claiming \"I'm more working class than thou\". I do not intend to make one myself, but I was the first person in my family to have a university degree and I know that if the education

system of today had been in operation then, I would not have gone to university and I would not be here today.

It sounds crass to talk about abolishing tuition fees as benefiting the better-off when we are earning a minimum of £40,000 a year and many ministers are earning £70,000 to £80,000. Jack McConnell's household income is probably more than all of ours collectively. We talk nevertheless about better-off people. Are they the clerical worker and the joiner with a joint income of £17,000, who have to pay tuition fees? Is it the spouse who earns £14,000 and who has to contribute to their partner's tuition fees? Or is it the postman and the nurse, who pay full tuition fees? Are these the better-off people that we are talking about? I do not think so.

The amendment allows us to go further than abolishing tuition fees because it gives us the opportunity to re-establish a free education system—and we have to look at student maintenance to do that. The First Minister talked yesterday of the need to achieve a Scottish education system of excellent quality. The state of an education system says a lot about a society. I would have thought that the message that we want to send out is that Scotland has an education system that is free at the point of delivery, not one based on ability to pay. The quickest way to abolish tuition fees is not to have an inquiry but to vote for the amendment today, which I urge members to do so that we can begin to return Scotland to a system of free education.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:00:28.6213377+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2133E222P520C704820", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Holyrood Project", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26622, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26622, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Matheson, Michael", "ID": 2133, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Matheson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Matheson (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 75.0, "ContributionID": 704820, "EditedText": "My concern is not so much about the materials or cost of the building, but that we ensure that we have a Parliament that is open and accessible to all members of our society, no matter that they have a disability. It seems, however, that some members think that if we say that the Parliament is accessible, it is. I am afraid that there are a number of concerns about access for the disabled and to the Holyrood site. At Tuesday's meeting with the architect and Scottish Office officials, I raised the issue not of access within the Parliament, but of access to the Parliament site. The transport problems that will undoubtedly occur will have a disproportionate effect on people with a disability. We know from comments made by one of the Scottish Office officials that one of the ideas that is being considered to ensure that disabled people can get to the Parliament is a shuttle bus service. I am sorry, but that is an unacceptable standard to set for a new Parliament from the start. The Parliament will have a secure area for dropping off VIPs, but there are no plans for an area near the Parliament to drop off disabled people or the elderly. I am sure that many members of this Parliament will agree that it is more important that disabled people can be dropped off at the Parliament than that the odd dignitary who may choose to visit us can be. There are also concerns about the interior of the building. It will be a cambered chamber, like this one. The same access problems will exist as here. How does someone with a wheelchair go from this end of the Parliament to the other end of the Parliament, without having to go down to the front or round the back? On Tuesday, that question could not be answered. The Presiding Officer's area will be elevated and will be accessed by stairs. At the heart of our Parliament, there will be an area that someone with a disability will be unable to access. When that point was raised, Scottish Office officials stated that they were aware of the problem and were looking into the possibility of an elevating platform. When I heard that suggestion, I must confess that the vision of the Blackpool organist coming up through the stage floor went through my mind. Already we are considering adapting a building that should be built to the standard that anyone with a disability, whether they be the Presiding Officer, a member or a member of the public, can access any part of. The Parliament should be built to ensure that, during the next 200 years, every member of our society, no matter that they have a disability, can access the building and every part of the building. We are talking about a Parliament that may last for 200 years. What is two months if we ensure that we provide a Parliament that includes all members of our society? Mrs Lyndsay McIntosh (Central Scotland)", "EditedTextHTML": "My concern is not so much about the materials or cost of the building, but that we ensure that we have a Parliament that is open and accessible to all members of our society, no matter that they have a disability. It seems, however, that some members think that if we say that the Parliament is accessible, it is. I am afraid that there are a number of concerns about access for the disabled and to the Holyrood site.

At Tuesday's meeting with the architect and Scottish Office officials, I raised the issue not of access within the Parliament, but of access to the Parliament site. The transport problems that will undoubtedly occur will have a disproportionate effect on people with a disability. We know from comments made by one of the Scottish Office officials that one of the ideas that is being considered to ensure that disabled people can get to the Parliament is a shuttle bus service. I am sorry, but that is an unacceptable standard to set for a new Parliament from the start.

The Parliament will have a secure area for dropping off VIPs, but there are no plans for an area near the Parliament to drop off disabled people or the elderly. I am sure that many members of this Parliament will agree that it is more important that disabled people can be dropped off at the Parliament than that the odd dignitary who may choose to visit us can be.

There are also concerns about the interior of the building. It will be a cambered chamber, like this one. The same access problems will exist as here. How does someone with a wheelchair go from this end of the Parliament to the other end of the Parliament, without having to go down to the front or round the back? On Tuesday, that question could not be answered.

The Presiding Officer's area will be elevated and will be accessed by stairs. At the heart of our Parliament, there will be an area that someone with a disability will be unable to access. When that point was raised, Scottish Office officials stated that they were aware of the problem and were looking into the possibility of an elevating platform. When I heard that suggestion, I must confess that the vision of the Blackpool organist coming up through the stage floor went through my mind.

Already we are considering adapting a building that should be built to the standard that anyone with a disability, whether they be the Presiding Officer, a member or a member of the public, can access any part of. The Parliament should be built to ensure that, during the next 200 years, every member of our society, no matter that they have a disability, can access the building and every part of the building. We are talking about a Parliament that may last for 200 years. What is two months if we ensure that we provide a Parliament that includes all members of our society?
Mrs Lyndsay McIntosh (Central Scotland)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:20.9670782+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C704947", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26624, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 248.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26625, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 251.0, "QuestionHeading": "Roads (Aberdeen)", "QuestionHeadingID": 26639, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 363.0, "DisplayOrder": 363.0, "ID": 26639, "ParentID": 26625 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment (Sarah Boyack): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 366.0, "ContributionID": 704947, "EditedText": "The western peripheral route around Aberdeen is a proposal that is being promoted by Aberdeen City Council and Aberdeenshire Council. They will have the opportunity, in submitting their local transport strategies to the Scottish Executive next month, to explain how that route would contribute to an integrated transport strategy for the area.", "EditedTextHTML": "The western peripheral route around Aberdeen is a proposal that is being promoted by Aberdeen City Council and Aberdeenshire Council. They will have the opportunity, in submitting their local transport strategies to the Scottish Executive next month, to explain how that route would contribute to an integrated transport strategy for the area.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:08.9050713+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1773E197P503C704953", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26624, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 248.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26625, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 251.0, "QuestionHeading": "Homelessness", "QuestionHeadingID": 26641, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "DisplayOrder": 379.0, "ID": 26641, "ParentID": 26625 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hyslop, Fiona", "ID": 1773, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona Hyslop", "SpeakerDisplayName": "16. Fiona Hyslop (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 380.0, "ContributionID": 704953, "EditedText": "To ask the Scottish Executive what measures it intends to propose to deal with the record and climbing levels of homelessness in Scotland. (S1O-58) The Minister for Communities (Ms Wendy", "EditedTextHTML": "To ask the Scottish Executive what measures it intends to propose to deal with the record and climbing levels of homelessness in Scotland. (S1O-58) The Minister for Communities (Ms Wendy

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:00:34.116328+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1773E197P503C704955", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Question Time", "HeadingType": "Question Time", "HeadingID": 26624, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 248.0, "SubHeading": "SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE", "SubHeadingType": "Department", "SubHeadingID": 26625, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": 251.0, "QuestionHeading": "Homelessness", "QuestionHeadingID": 26641, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": 379.0, "DisplayOrder": 379.0, "ID": 26641, "ParentID": 26625 }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hyslop, Fiona", "ID": 1773, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona Hyslop", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona Hyslop: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 384.0, "ContributionID": 704955, "EditedText": "Although I welcome the homelessness review, it is no excuse for the lack of a housing bill in the legislative programme proposed by the Executive. Will the task force for the review report to the Social Inclusion, Housing and Voluntary Sector Committee and be accountable to it?", "EditedTextHTML": "Although I welcome the homelessness review, it is no excuse for the lack of a housing bill in the legislative programme proposed by the Executive. Will the task force for the review report to the Social Inclusion, Housing and Voluntary Sector Committee and be accountable to it?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:00:34.116328+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1773E197P503C705050", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hyslop, Fiona", "ID": 1773, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona Hyslop", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona Hyslop: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 591.0, "ContributionID": 705050, "EditedText": "Pauline McNeill, like many here, has the experience of having been a student leader. Is she speaking for the motion or for the amendment? I entirely agree with the content of her speech. Students are suffering, and does she not agree that we should be examining hardship, which the amendment would allow us to do? Does she agree that the fees element adds very much to hardship and contributes to the figures that she has mentioned in her speech?", "EditedTextHTML": "Pauline McNeill, like many here, has the experience of having been a student leader. Is she speaking for the motion or for the amendment? I entirely agree with the content of her speech. Students are suffering, and does she not agree that we should be examining hardship, which the amendment would allow us to do? Does she agree that the fees element adds very much to hardship and contributes to the figures that she has mentioned in her speech?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:00:47.4219837+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C705038", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 564.0, "ContributionID": 705038, "EditedText": "Did the member also hope that once the election was over, this new Scottish Parliament could ignore the wishes and the votes of the Scottish people?", "EditedTextHTML": "Did the member also hope that once the election was over, this new Scottish Parliament could ignore the wishes and the votes of the Scottish people?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:00:25.9901853+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C705080", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 655.0, "ContributionID": 705080, "EditedText": "I have listened very carefully, and sometimes angrily, to contributions from members on all sides of this debate. We should all remember that this is the first decision of substance that this Parliament is being asked to take. That is why it is vital that we get it right this afternoon and do what the people of Scotland instructed us to do on 6 May. The debate can essentially be boiled down to the consideration of two fundamental principles. The first is the principle of free access to further and higher education. The cry from students for free education for all has been a consistent one down the years, but we should stop and consider just what that principle means for the people of Scotland, not least for those in our own ranks who have benefited from a free education. In this country, we have a great tradition of learning. We send more young people into higher education than any other part of the UK. We believe that access to education should be based on the ability to learn and not on the ability to pay. Tuition fees and the abolition of the student maintenance grant—twin issues that are of equal importance—have ripped the heart out of that principle. The effects are already there for all to see. Applications are down by nearly 6 per cent since last year. I have heard it said that, because the biggest drop is among low-income students who are exempt from tuition fees, that makes it all right. It does not make it all right. It strengthens the argument for a review of student funding and financial support, but it is not an argument for tuition fees. In any event, the figures show an above-average drop among those at the lower end of the scale, the people who have to pay a proportion of the tuition fees. In short, Mr Presiding Officer, but in truth, we are pricing our students out of education. The Government's manifesto commitment to create extra places in higher education should be considered in the light of that fact. Based on present evidence, all that the Government will be doing is creating a lot of empty seats in lecture theatres across Scotland. The second principle that is at stake in this debate is the principle of democratic accountability. In the long years and varied arguments that have preceded the establishment of this Parliament, the one theme that kept emerging again and again was accountability. This Parliament was to be about bringing politics closer to the people and making politicians more accountable for their actions and decisions, forcing them to keep their promises. That theme emerged earlier this week, albeit in a different context, when Charles Kennedy entered the Liberal Democrat leadership race. He said that politicians must reconnect with the people. He was absolutely right and, in this Parliament, we in Scotland have the opportunity to do just that. However, if Liberal Democrat members—and I make no apology for singling them out—do not vote for John Swinney's amendment this afternoon, they will blow that opportunity. Seventy-three of us were sent here on a clear pledge to abolish tuition fees. That was not a peripheral campaign issue, but the central, defining one. It was the Liberals who made their commitment to abolition non-negotiable. It was Jim Wallace who said that tuition fees would be dead by Friday. In his opening remarks, he rather astonishingly criticised what he called the bald statement in the amendment which calls for the Executive to bring forward proposals for the abolition of tuition fees. I checked the Liberal manifesto, and it says that the Liberal Democrats would \"abolish tuition fees\"—remarkably similar wording.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have listened very carefully, and sometimes angrily, to contributions from members on all sides of this debate. We should all remember that this is the first decision of substance that this Parliament is being asked to take. That is why it is vital that we get it right this afternoon and do what the people of Scotland instructed us to do on 6 May.

The debate can essentially be boiled down to the consideration of two fundamental principles. The first is the principle of free access to further and higher education. The cry from students for free education for all has been a consistent one down the years, but we should stop and consider

just what that principle means for the people of Scotland, not least for those in our own ranks who have benefited from a free education.

In this country, we have a great tradition of learning. We send more young people into higher education than any other part of the UK. We believe that access to education should be based on the ability to learn and not on the ability to pay.

Tuition fees and the abolition of the student maintenance grant—twin issues that are of equal importance—have ripped the heart out of that principle. The effects are already there for all to see. Applications are down by nearly 6 per cent since last year. I have heard it said that, because the biggest drop is among low-income students who are exempt from tuition fees, that makes it all right. It does not make it all right. It strengthens the argument for a review of student funding and financial support, but it is not an argument for tuition fees. In any event, the figures show an above-average drop among those at the lower end of the scale, the people who have to pay a proportion of the tuition fees.

In short, Mr Presiding Officer, but in truth, we are pricing our students out of education. The Government's manifesto commitment to create extra places in higher education should be considered in the light of that fact. Based on present evidence, all that the Government will be doing is creating a lot of empty seats in lecture theatres across Scotland.

The second principle that is at stake in this debate is the principle of democratic accountability. In the long years and varied arguments that have preceded the establishment of this Parliament, the one theme that kept emerging again and again was accountability. This Parliament was to be about bringing politics closer to the people and making politicians more accountable for their actions and decisions, forcing them to keep their promises. That theme emerged earlier this week, albeit in a different context, when Charles Kennedy entered the Liberal Democrat leadership race. He said that politicians must reconnect with the people. He was absolutely right and, in this Parliament, we in Scotland have the opportunity to do just that. However, if Liberal Democrat members—and I make no apology for singling them out—do not vote for John Swinney's amendment this afternoon, they will blow that opportunity.

Seventy-three of us were sent here on a clear pledge to abolish tuition fees. That was not a peripheral campaign issue, but the central, defining one. It was the Liberals who made their commitment to abolition non-negotiable. It was Jim Wallace who said that tuition fees would be dead by Friday. In his opening remarks, he rather astonishingly criticised what he called the bald statement in the amendment which calls for the Executive to bring forward proposals for the abolition of tuition fees. I checked the Liberal manifesto, and it says that the Liberal Democrats would \"abolish tuition fees\"—remarkably similar wording.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:00:25.9901853+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C705004", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 492.0, "ContributionID": 705004, "EditedText": "I have listened carefully to Mr Wallace on many occasions. I have heard him speak on the issue of tuition fees many times. Having listened carefully to him today, I wonder what has happened to him over the past six weeks. If the measures outlined in Mr Wallace's speech are the best way to address the crisis on tuition fees, I am left to ask myself why he did not fight the election on them. He fought the election, as my party did, on a commitment to abolish tuition fees. In the 14 minutes of his speech, history was rewritten by his articulation of what his party now represents. Today, we all know what we are being asked to vote for. The amendment in my name is a real and genuine opportunity to vote for the abolition of tuition fees. It is also an opportunity to start to solve the problem of student hardship. We all know what our duty is—73 members in this chamber were elected on a ticket of abolishing tuition fees. That commitment was centre stage in the election—it was not hidden in the small print. We have a mandate and we must act on it. This is the first major test of the politics of thisParliament and, critically, of whether the will of the people of Scotland can prevail. We are debating a matter of principle that affects real people outside this chamber and is close to the heart of Scotland. In moving this amendment, I want to concentrate on two points. First, I want to make the case for this Parliament instructing the Executive to abolish tuition fees. Secondly, I want to challenge the notion, advanced by Mr Wallace and by his colleagues—in endless interviews that Mr Lyon gave this morning—that the quickest way to abolish tuition fees is to have the inquiry that is proposed in Mr Wallace's motion. The case for abolishing tuition fees was well rehearsed during the election campaign. It comes before us as a simple question of principle: it is a question of free education, not fee education. It is a very Scottish principle. More young Scots go into higher education per head of the population than do young people in any other part of the UK—and that pays off. Scotland is the third most prolific country in the world for research published per head of the population. However, there are worrying signs of a decline in applications to higher education and in applications to Scottish higher education institutions. There are worrying signs about applications from mature students and there is unease about our ability to encourage postgraduate study on top of heavy undergraduate debt. Our country has a strong commitment to education and we must not undermine it. To move away from a discussion on principle with which it will be uncomfortable, the Executive will try to distract us by claiming that the abolition of tuition fees will benefit only the well-off. The SNP has always advanced the case for abolishing tuition fees and tackling the issue of student hardship, and our amendment reflects that position. There is abundant evidence that proves that the ending of the grant and the increase in the loan and debt culture for students is a real deterrent to people from low and middle-income households. During the past few weeks, many students have represented to me a growing perception that higher education costs a great deal of money, and tuition fees are the clearest illustration of that perception. Not only the children of managing directors and Cabinet ministers are being charged tuition fees. The child of a postman and a midwife pays the full whack and the child of a phone salesperson and a bricklayer pays half of the fee. Abolition of tuition fees is hardly a perk for the rich and famous. Even for people who pay no fees at all, there is no guarantee that fees will not creep down towards them in the future. The inflation index used to update the liability threshold will mean that more and more people will be liable to pay fees. When the case for abolition was made during the election, the electorate spoke. The decision to abolish tuition fees in principle should be taken today and we should agree steps now to tackle student hardship. The SNP is the first to recognise that its proposals have to be paid for. Before the election, I outlined a proposal—called, interestingly, the Holyrood project—that was designed to free new resources in the Scottish block to afford this Parliament's priorities. It was based on the concept of extending value in the public finances and of seeking the best practice within the Government community to obtain the best value for public resources. We estimated that more than £120 million could be freed up for the abolition of tuition fees and the Parliament's other priorities but, during the election campaign, our targets were described as \"modest\". Fundamental to our case was the opportunity to direct resources to meet the genuine funding requirements of the higher education sector, which we would not detract from and which we recognised required to be supported fully by the state. The central issue is whether a committee of inquiry is the quickest route to abolishing fees. At 12.54 this afternoon, I was listening to Mr McLeish's impassioned speech during the earlier debate. He came out with a ringing request that there should not be another committee of inquiry. I could not agree more. I think he is absolutely right. He was talking about a different subject, but he made the point. Ian Jenkins (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD): Does Mr Swinney not want another committee of inquiry?", "EditedTextHTML": "I have listened carefully to Mr Wallace on many occasions. I have heard him speak on the issue of tuition fees many times. Having listened carefully to him today, I wonder what has happened to him over the past six weeks.

If the measures outlined in Mr Wallace's speech are the best way to address the crisis on tuition fees, I am left to ask myself why he did not fight the election on them. He fought the election, as my party did, on a commitment to abolish tuition fees. In the 14 minutes of his speech, history was rewritten by his articulation of what his party now represents.

Today, we all know what we are being asked to vote for. The amendment in my name is a real and genuine opportunity to vote for the abolition of tuition fees. It is also an opportunity to start to solve the problem of student hardship. We all know what our duty is—73 members in this chamber were elected on a ticket of abolishing tuition fees. That commitment was centre stage in the election—it was not hidden in the small print. We have a mandate and we must act on it.

This is the first major test of the politics of this

Parliament and, critically, of whether the will of the people of Scotland can prevail. We are debating a matter of principle that affects real people outside this chamber and is close to the heart of Scotland.

In moving this amendment, I want to concentrate on two points. First, I want to make the case for this Parliament instructing the Executive to abolish tuition fees. Secondly, I want to challenge the notion, advanced by Mr Wallace and by his colleagues—in endless interviews that Mr Lyon gave this morning—that the quickest way to abolish tuition fees is to have the inquiry that is proposed in Mr Wallace's motion.

The case for abolishing tuition fees was well rehearsed during the election campaign. It comes before us as a simple question of principle: it is a question of free education, not fee education. It is a very Scottish principle. More young Scots go into higher education per head of the population than do young people in any other part of the UK—and that pays off. Scotland is the third most prolific country in the world for research published per head of the population.

However, there are worrying signs of a decline in applications to higher education and in applications to Scottish higher education institutions. There are worrying signs about applications from mature students and there is unease about our ability to encourage postgraduate study on top of heavy undergraduate debt. Our country has a strong commitment to education and we must not undermine it.

To move away from a discussion on principle with which it will be uncomfortable, the Executive will try to distract us by claiming that the abolition of tuition fees will benefit only the well-off. The SNP has always advanced the case for abolishing tuition fees and tackling the issue of student hardship, and our amendment reflects that position. There is abundant evidence that proves that the ending of the grant and the increase in the loan and debt culture for students is a real deterrent to people from low and middle-income households. During the past few weeks, many students have represented to me a growing perception that higher education costs a great deal of money, and tuition fees are the clearest illustration of that perception.

Not only the children of managing directors and Cabinet ministers are being charged tuition fees. The child of a postman and a midwife pays the full whack and the child of a phone salesperson and a bricklayer pays half of the fee. Abolition of tuition fees is hardly a perk for the rich and famous. Even for people who pay no fees at all, there is no guarantee that fees will not creep down towards them in the future. The inflation index used to update the liability threshold will mean that more and more people will be liable to pay fees.

When the case for abolition was made during the election, the electorate spoke. The decision to abolish tuition fees in principle should be taken today and we should agree steps now to tackle student hardship.

The SNP is the first to recognise that its proposals have to be paid for. Before the election, I outlined a proposal—called, interestingly, the Holyrood project—that was designed to free new resources in the Scottish block to afford this Parliament's priorities. It was based on the concept of extending value in the public finances and of seeking the best practice within the Government community to obtain the best value for public resources.

We estimated that more than £120 million could be freed up for the abolition of tuition fees and the Parliament's other priorities but, during the election campaign, our targets were described as \"modest\". Fundamental to our case was the opportunity to direct resources to meet the genuine funding requirements of the higher education sector, which we would not detract from and which we recognised required to be supported fully by the state.

The central issue is whether a committee of inquiry is the quickest route to abolishing fees. At

12.54 this afternoon, I was listening to Mr McLeish's impassioned speech during the earlier debate. He came out with a ringing request that there should not be another committee of inquiry. I could not agree more. I think he is absolutely right. He was talking about a different subject, but he made the point. Ian Jenkins (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD): Does Mr Swinney not want another committee of inquiry?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:13:41.211281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C705012", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 508.0, "ContributionID": 705012, "EditedText": "I am grateful for Mr McLeish's intervention, although I am not sure whom it was designed to help. It was certainly more helpful to me than to anyone else in the chamber agonising about what they are doing here this afternoon. His point is well made. What I want the Parliament to do this afternoon is to vote for the abolition of tuition fees in principle. We should have a committee of inquiry on the issue of student hardship. I am the first to recognise that although the majority of members were elected to this Parliament to abolish tuition fees, that majority does not have a solution to the problem of student hardship. That has to be addressed along with the serious points made by the student organisations. Today, I want this Parliament to enforce the mandate that it was given. If the committee of inquiry goes ahead and we do not take a decision in principle on tuition fees today, the assumption must be that there is a substantial job to be done in relation to the debate on tuition fees. The committee must therefore take evidence. The minimum information that it will need for comparative purposes is admission figures in October and application figures in December of this year, so it cannot report until next year at the earliest. By the time its recommendations are examined, debated and voted on—free vote or not—any abolition will be too late for next year's students. No member of this Parliament has ever obtained an assurance from Mr McLeish and his colleagues in the Labour part of the Executive that they will be bound by the terms of that inquiry when it comes to the Parliament. We have no guarantee that that inquiry will recommend the abolition of tuition fees. The time to take the decision to abolish tuition fees is today. There is no reason why any member elected on a commitment to abolish tuition fees should find the wording of this amendment impossible to support. It calls for the abolition of tuition fees that the electorate demanded. It calls for a stable solution to student hardship. The vote is about the principle of free education and access to education. Mr McLeish admitted at the weekend that if this amendment were passed, tuition fees would have to be abolished. Mr McLeish has also stated that the Government's response to the committee of inquiry will be driven through the Parliament by the party whips for Labour and the Liberal Democrats. There is an opportunity today to abolish tuition fees. If Liberal Democrat members pass up this opportunity, they will do so with no guarantee that abolition will be delivered at the end of the inquiry. Mr Wallace said during the election campaign that tuition fees would be dead by Friday. We all thought that he was talking about Friday 7 May, but the timetable has slipped. Mr McLeish conceded at the weekend that tuition fees could be dead by this Friday, if this amendment is passed. Tuition fees could be dead by tomorrow— Friday 18 June—so we must vote for abolition today. I move, to leave out all after \"Scottish Executive\"and insert\"to bring forward to the Parliament proposals for the abolition of tuition fees and to appoint urgently a Committee of inquiry on the issue of financial support for those participating, part-time or full-time, in further and higher education; the terms of reference, time scale and membership of that Committee to be approved by and its report laid before the Parliament\".", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful for Mr McLeish's intervention, although I am not sure whom it was designed to help. It was certainly more helpful to me than to anyone else in the chamber agonising about what they are doing here this afternoon. His point is well made.

What I want the Parliament to do this afternoon is to vote for the abolition of tuition fees in principle. We should have a committee of inquiry on the issue of student hardship. I am the first to recognise that although the majority of members were elected to this Parliament to abolish tuition fees, that majority does not have a solution to the problem of student hardship. That has to be addressed along with the serious points made by the student organisations. Today, I want this Parliament to enforce the mandate that it was given.

If the committee of inquiry goes ahead and we do not take a decision in principle on tuition fees today, the assumption must be that there is a substantial job to be done in relation to the debate on tuition fees. The committee must therefore take evidence. The minimum information that it will need for comparative purposes is admission figures in October and application figures in December of this year, so it cannot report until next year at the earliest. By the time its recommendations are examined, debated and voted on—free vote or not—any abolition will be too late for next year's students.

No member of this Parliament has ever obtained an assurance from Mr McLeish and his colleagues in the Labour part of the Executive that they will be bound by the terms of that inquiry when it comes to the Parliament. We have no guarantee that that inquiry will recommend the abolition of tuition fees.

The time to take the decision to abolish tuition fees is today.

There is no reason why any member elected on a commitment to abolish tuition fees should find the wording of this amendment impossible to support. It calls for the abolition of tuition fees that the electorate demanded. It calls for a stable solution to student hardship. The vote is about the principle of free education and access to education. Mr McLeish admitted at the weekend that if this amendment were passed, tuition fees would have to be abolished. Mr McLeish has also stated that the Government's response to the committee of inquiry will be driven through the Parliament by the party whips for Labour and the Liberal Democrats.

There is an opportunity today to abolish tuition fees. If Liberal Democrat members pass up this opportunity, they will do so with no guarantee that abolition will be delivered at the end of the inquiry. Mr Wallace said during the election campaign that tuition fees would be dead by Friday. We all thought that he was talking about Friday 7 May, but the timetable has slipped. Mr McLeish conceded at the weekend that tuition fees could be dead by this Friday, if this amendment is passed. Tuition fees could be dead by tomorrow— Friday 18 June—so we must vote for abolition today.

I move, to leave out all after \"Scottish Executive\"

and insert

\"to bring forward to the Parliament proposals for the abolition of tuition fees and to appoint urgently a Committee of inquiry on the issue of financial support for those participating, part-time or full-time, in further and higher education; the terms of reference, time scale and membership of that Committee to be approved by and its report laid before the Parliament\".

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:13:41.2269066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1857E136P222C705047", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 17 Jun 1999", "ID": 4169 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-17T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Tuition Fees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26649, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 471.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 471.0, "ID": 26649, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeill, Pauline", "ID": 1857, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Kelvin" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Pauline McNeill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Pauline McNeill: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 585.0, "ContributionID": 705047, "EditedText": "I have to correct Mr Monteith on that. He is correct in saying that the special grant was for materials, but I made representations to Mr John MacKay, the Scottish Office minister responsible at the time. I pleaded with him not to abolish the grant because it was such a minute amount of public expenditure. Mr Monteith's Government still said no. This September, the student maintenance level for those living away from home is £3,635 a year, a weekly expenditure of £69.90. Given that the average student rent in Scotland is £45 a week, that leaves £24.90 for living costs or £3.56 a day. That is more or less what most of us spend on a cup of coffee and a newspaper at the Scottish Parliament. That is the average amount that students are left with to buy books, clothes and stationery. It is no wonder that the drop-out rate is quite high.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have to correct Mr Monteith on that. He is correct in saying that the special grant was for materials, but I made representations to Mr John MacKay, the Scottish Office minister responsible at the time. I pleaded with him not to abolish the grant because it was such a minute amount of public expenditure. Mr Monteith's Government still said no.

This September, the student maintenance level for those living away from home is £3,635 a year, a weekly expenditure of £69.90. Given that the average student rent in Scotland is £45 a week, that leaves £24.90 for living costs or £3.56 a day. That is more or less what most of us spend on a cup of coffee and a newspaper at the Scottish Parliament. That is the average amount that students are left with to buy books, clothes and stationery. It is no wonder that the drop-out rate is quite high.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:14:54.5772891+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C704596", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 152.0, "ContributionID": 704596, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:00:06.0659627+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1773E197P503C704653", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hyslop, Fiona", "ID": 1773, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona Hyslop", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona Hyslop (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 273.0, "ContributionID": 704653, "EditedText": "I would like to address the business of today's debate—the legislative programme and the eight bills that are mentioned in it. We have heard fine words and passion about the need to tackle poverty, injustice and discrimination. We must recognise that the people who elected us want us to address those issues through action, not fine words. That is why one of the greatest criticisms of today's statement is its lack of provision on housing, social justice, poverty and anti-discrimination. The First Minister spoke about Scotland's solutions to Scotland's problems and the need to address pressing priorities. Scotland's housing is a pressing priority and a housing bill is a glaring omission from today's statement. It is with deep disappointment that I address that point. Only yesterday, Frank McAveety and I spoke at a conference at which the Parliament's role in housing was discussed. There is potential for great consensus on some aspects of housing. The Executive's failure to introduce early legislation to allow that to happen is a missed opportunity. Certain issues, such as a single secure tenancy, the strategic role of local government in housing matters and better management of tenements where there is a mix of landlord and home ownership, could have offered this Parliament a great opportunity to start making a difference early on. The Executive has missed that opportunity and housing is obviously not one of its legislative priorities. The biggest omission is any attempt to address homelessness or to consider extending statutory responsibilities across tenure and the definition of who is homeless. Members who travel from Waverley station up the News Steps every day will see some of the problems of homelessness, and there is an early failure by this Government to address those problems. I was pleased to hear the First Minister talk about social justice, as I think that that is the terminology we should be using. The term social inclusion perhaps allows the Parliament to avoid some of the issues that should be addressed. Michael McMahon was right: we are talking about poverty and the consequent discrimination, inequalities and lack of opportunities. Those are the issues that we should be addressing. A third of our children live in poverty. If we start talking about them as being socially excluded from birth, we are automatically distancing ourselves from them. This Parliament should make children and issues of poverty central priorities. I want us to talk in the language of social justice and poverty, not in the new Labour speak of exclusion or inclusion, depending on which side of the border people are on.There is a hint that the driver for change in social justice may come from the committee structure. I hope that there will be strong consultation. I for one would ensure that our party drove forward the issues of tackling poverty and social injustice. I hope that consultation will mean being prepared to listen and to accept some points, whether people like them or not. The SNP is on record as opposing mass stock transfer, but if consultation shows that that is not what is desired, I hope that the committee structure will acknowledge that and take it on board. We have heard much in recent months about step-by-step progress, but it is with sadness that I say that we have not seen even an attempt to crawl on these issues. We have heard fine words and passion, but there is no action and there are no bills to address the issues. I can assure members that the SNP will use its role to ensure that this Parliament marches on the issues of poverty, homelessness and injustice.", "EditedTextHTML": "I would like to address the business of today's debate—the legislative programme and the eight bills that are mentioned in it. We have heard fine words and passion about the need to tackle poverty, injustice and discrimination. We must recognise that the people who elected us want us to address those issues through action, not fine words. That is why one of the greatest criticisms of today's statement is its lack of provision on housing, social justice, poverty and anti-discrimination.

The First Minister spoke about Scotland's solutions to Scotland's problems and the need to address pressing priorities. Scotland's housing is a pressing priority and a housing bill is a glaring omission from today's statement. It is with deep disappointment that I address that point. Only yesterday, Frank McAveety and I spoke at a conference at which the Parliament's role in housing was discussed.

There is potential for great consensus on some aspects of housing. The Executive's failure to introduce early legislation to allow that to happen is a missed opportunity. Certain issues, such as a single secure tenancy, the strategic role of local government in housing matters and better management of tenements where there is a mix of landlord and home ownership, could have offered this Parliament a great opportunity to start making a difference early on. The Executive has missed that opportunity and housing is obviously not one of its legislative priorities.

The biggest omission is any attempt to address homelessness or to consider extending statutory responsibilities across tenure and the definition of who is homeless. Members who travel from Waverley station up the News Steps every day will see some of the problems of homelessness, and there is an early failure by this Government to address those problems.

I was pleased to hear the First Minister talk about social justice, as I think that that is the terminology we should be using. The term social inclusion perhaps allows the Parliament to avoid some of the issues that should be addressed. Michael McMahon was right: we are talking about poverty and the consequent discrimination, inequalities and lack of opportunities. Those are the issues that we should be addressing.

A third of our children live in poverty. If we start talking about them as being socially excluded from birth, we are automatically distancing ourselves from them. This Parliament should make children and issues of poverty central priorities. I want us to talk in the language of social justice and poverty, not in the new Labour speak of exclusion or inclusion, depending on which side of the border

people are on.

There is a hint that the driver for change in social justice may come from the committee structure. I hope that there will be strong consultation. I for one would ensure that our party drove forward the issues of tackling poverty and social injustice. I hope that consultation will mean being prepared to listen and to accept some points, whether people like them or not.

The SNP is on record as opposing mass stock transfer, but if consultation shows that that is not what is desired, I hope that the committee structure will acknowledge that and take it on board.

We have heard much in recent months about step-by-step progress, but it is with sadness that I say that we have not seen even an attempt to crawl on these issues. We have heard fine words and passion, but there is no action and there are no bills to address the issues. I can assure members that the SNP will use its role to ensure that this Parliament marches on the issues of poverty, homelessness and injustice.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:00:13.0585835+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C704529", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26618, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26618, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 11.0, "ContributionID": 704529, "EditedText": "Mystical. Laughter.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mystical. [Laughter.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C704531", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26618, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26618, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 15.0, "ContributionID": 704531, "EditedText": "No one has indicated a wish to speak against the motion, so I will put the question. The question is, that motion S1M-50, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "No one has indicated a wish to speak against the motion, so I will put the question. The question is, that motion S1M-50, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704532", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26618, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26618, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 17.0, "ContributionID": 704532, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C704535", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ms Patricia Ferguson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 24.0, "ContributionID": 704535, "EditedText": "The First Minister will take questions on the issues that were raised in his statement. I intend to allow a maximum of 20 minutes for questions, after which we will move on to the debate. Members should indicate a desire to speak by pressing their buttons.", "EditedTextHTML": "The First Minister will take questions on the issues that were raised in his statement. I intend to allow a maximum of 20 minutes for questions, after which we will move on to the debate. Members should indicate a desire to speak by pressing their buttons.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C704538", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 30.0, "ContributionID": 704538, "EditedText": "The First Minister did not mention the horrendous problem of the misuse of drugs in Scotland. During the election campaign, the issue was in every party's manifesto and on everyone's mind. Will he comment on the misuse of drugs?", "EditedTextHTML": "The First Minister did not mention the horrendous problem of the misuse of drugs in Scotland. During the election campaign, the issue was in every party's manifesto and on everyone's mind. Will he comment on the misuse of drugs?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C704539", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 32.0, "ContributionID": 704539, "EditedText": "Mr Gallie is inviting me to make another speech if he wants me to comment on drug abuse in Scotland. I say this not in a pernickety or personal way, but it is important to distinguish between what we can do administratively and what would require statutory provision. We are talking today about matters that need to be dealt with by statutory provision. One of the features of Labour's election campaign was the promise of a drugs enforcement agency, which would be taken out of the present structure of the Scottish crime squad and which would mean a doubling in the number of policemen who work in that field. In addition, we will double the strength of successful drug squads in every force. That does not need legislation, but I will not allow that important commitment to slip. We will want to tackle problems in consultation with the relevant committee. The Justice and Home Affairs Committee will be set up shortly and will have its say on the issue of drug misuse. We may also want to introduce legislation, particularly on confiscation laws. The list that I have announced is not exhaustive; it is a starting line-up—if I may use a sporting analogy—from which we will move on. A variety of Government departments will have to tackle the problem of drug misuse and we will discuss the structure that will allow us to do that. The Government is determined to mount a cross-cutting exercise, as it is called in the jargon of the trade, with considerably more energy and efficiency than has previously been possible. I can safely predict that drugs will be one area of attack.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Gallie is inviting me to make another speech if he wants me to comment on drug abuse in Scotland. I say this not in a pernickety or personal way, but it is important to distinguish between what we can do administratively and what would require statutory provision. We are talking today about matters that need to be dealt with by statutory provision.

One of the features of Labour's election campaign was the promise of a drugs enforcement agency, which would be taken out of the present structure of the Scottish crime squad and which would mean a doubling in the number of policemen who work in that field. In addition, we will double the strength of successful drug squads in every force. That does not need legislation, but I will not allow that important commitment to slip. We will want to tackle problems in consultation with the relevant committee. The Justice and Home Affairs Committee will be set up shortly and will have its say on the issue of drug misuse. We may also want to introduce legislation, particularly on confiscation laws.

The list that I have announced is not exhaustive; it is a starting line-up—if I may use a sporting analogy—from which we will move on. A variety of Government departments will have to tackle the problem of drug misuse and we will discuss the structure that will allow us to do that. The Government is determined to mount a cross-cutting exercise, as it is called in the jargon of the trade, with considerably more energy and efficiency than has previously been possible. I can safely predict that drugs will be one area of attack.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C704541", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 36.0, "ContributionID": 704541, "EditedText": "Mr Wilson probably thought out that question very carefully. I think that it falls into the category of trick questions and I have no difficulty in avoiding the elephant trap—if I may mix my metaphors. This is not a case of comparing Liberal Democrat to Labour. The reason for the partnership was that, when we started talking, we discovered that, in broad terms, there was an identity of aim in many important policy areas—we had shared objectives. All the bills fall into that category. I do not regard one of the bills as Labour or another as Liberal Democrat. Members of the SNP may think in terms of faction all the time, but we all think of these bills as Government and Administration bills. We do not need to strike off the bills for one side or another; we do not see the matter in terms of sides at all.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Wilson probably thought out that question very carefully. I think that it falls into the category of trick questions and I have no difficulty in avoiding the elephant trap—if I may mix my metaphors. This is not a case of comparing Liberal Democrat to Labour. The reason for the partnership was that, when we started talking, we discovered that, in broad terms, there was an identity of aim in many important policy areas—we had shared objectives. All the bills fall into that category. I do not regard one of the bills as Labour or another as Liberal Democrat. Members of the SNP may think in terms of faction all the time, but we all think of these bills as Government and Administration bills. We do not need to strike off the bills for one side or another; we do not see the matter in terms of sides at all.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C704543", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 40.0, "ContributionID": 704543, "EditedText": "At the age of 14, I got what was called lower arithmetic—no one here will remember that—to the astonishment of the entire school. I then gave up counting. Fortunately, I retain the skill—I hope—as I am sure John McAllion does. The legislative programme that I have announced represents a starting line-up. There is no specific bill for housing in the starting line-up, but I look forward to those in the Administration who will be involved in housing matters pushing on with proper consultation. There must be proper consultation on our ideas about community ownership and about involving residents in the management of housing stock. Those are ambitious plans that involve important financial and social considerations; they must be properly digested. The plans are on the agenda and I look forward to pushing them on. All members will recognise that we must have bills that we can progress immediately. Equally important bills will have to come in the second wave. An obvious example of that will be local government legislation to follow the McIntosh report, which will be published on 22 June. As soon as we have consulted on that, I am certain that we will want to legislate on an agreed basis— although I say that with no super confidence.", "EditedTextHTML": "At the age of 14, I got what was called lower arithmetic—no one here will remember that—to the astonishment of the entire school. I then gave up counting. Fortunately, I retain the skill—I hope—as I am sure John McAllion does.

The legislative programme that I have announced represents a starting line-up. There is no specific bill for housing in the starting line-up, but I look forward to those in the Administration who will be involved in housing matters pushing on with proper consultation. There must be proper consultation on our ideas about community

ownership and about involving residents in the management of housing stock. Those are ambitious plans that involve important financial and social considerations; they must be properly digested. The plans are on the agenda and I look forward to pushing them on.

All members will recognise that we must have bills that we can progress immediately. Equally important bills will have to come in the second wave. An obvious example of that will be local government legislation to follow the McIntosh report, which will be published on 22 June. As soon as we have consulted on that, I am certain that we will want to legislate on an agreed basis— although I say that with no super confidence.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C704545", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 44.0, "ContributionID": 704545, "EditedText": "I sympathise with Mr Sheridan's difficulties. If he counts again, he will find that there are eight bills. No doubt, that is something that he can do with the aid of his fingers later on. I am sometimes reduced to that, and so I say it in no spirit of hardness. I give a high priority to the social justice agenda. I represent a constituency where there are such problems. Within the city of Glasgow, I represent real extremes in terms of prosperity, opportunity and life chances, and I am always conscious of that. I do not think that simplistic targets can be set in these matters. What must be done—and I use the same phrase as I used about drugs—is to attack on all fronts. The minister who deals with social inclusion has specific responsibility for co-ordinating that attack. I assure Mr Sheridan that action will be taken on the social justice front, but I want to involve this Parliament in that action and I hope that the social inclusion committee and the affected communities will be part of that dialogue. Fortunately, standards of living in Scotland are rising although, sadly, we have yet to crack the business of the distribution of that wealth or, more important, the distribution of opportunity, so that everyone has a chance to realise their potential and to have an appropriate quality of life. That obvious and important theme will run through all of this Government's activities. I hope that Mr Sheridan, like me, will be prepared to engage in constructive dialogue on this matter, within the context of practical, achievable politics. If so, I welcome him as a suitable ally.", "EditedTextHTML": "I sympathise with Mr Sheridan's difficulties. If he counts again, he will find that there are eight bills. No doubt, that is something that he can do with the aid of his fingers later on. I am sometimes reduced to that, and so I say it in no spirit of hardness.

I give a high priority to the social justice agenda. I represent a constituency where there are such problems. Within the city of Glasgow, I represent real extremes in terms of prosperity, opportunity and life chances, and I am always conscious of that. I do not think that simplistic targets can be set in these matters. What must be done—and I use the same phrase as I used about drugs—is to attack on all fronts. The minister who deals with social inclusion has specific responsibility for co-ordinating that attack. I assure Mr Sheridan that action will be taken on the social justice front, but I want to involve this Parliament in that action and I hope that the social inclusion committee and the affected communities will be part of that dialogue.

Fortunately, standards of living in Scotland are rising although, sadly, we have yet to crack the business of the distribution of that wealth or, more important, the distribution of opportunity, so that everyone has a chance to realise their potential and to have an appropriate quality of life. That obvious and important theme will run through all of this Government's activities. I hope that Mr Sheridan, like me, will be prepared to engage in constructive dialogue on this matter, within the context of practical, achievable politics. If so, I welcome him as a suitable ally.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C704546", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 46.0, "ContributionID": 704546, "EditedText": "I remind members that they should put questions to the First Minister. The time for debate will follow immediately after questions.", "EditedTextHTML": "I remind members that they should put questions to the First Minister. The time for debate will follow immediately after questions.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C704548", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 50.0, "ContributionID": 704548, "EditedText": "I welcome Keith Raffan'sfirst question. It is a perfectly fair question to ask, but the trouble is that there is no simple answer to it. He will have noticed that, in my statement, I referred to the fact that consultation and scrutiny take time; and I have no doubt that, at some point in the next few months, I—or my Administration— will be under attack because it is taking so long to deliver the bills. On the other hand, if we did not have proper consultation, we would be very properly under attack for betraying the spirit of the consultative steering group. Therefore, a balance has to be struck. Obviously, I do not want to suffocate the proper process of legislation with endless talk, but I want to listen and learn from people's views. Like everyone else, I have to get such a balance right and the committees, especially those scrutinising areas of policy, will also have a duty to get that balance right. I hope we will do that if we talk sensibly to each other. There is no template for these bills. Bills change very much in their complexity and I do not think that a simple answer can be given to the question. Before we rise, Sam Galbraith, in his role as education minister, will make a statement about how he intends to handle education legislation. That statement will probably be an interesting example of early thinking on this issue and it may help people who are considering the problems that it will deal with. As for Mr Raffan's second question, the Loch Lomond national park is clearly our first priority. A consortium of local authorities has existed for some time now and the former Scottish Office— still the Scottish Office for a little while—has, if I remember rightly, put up 80 per cent of the money for the exercise. Everything is well prepared and ready. I am interested in considering the Cairngorms for national park status, but we will have to investigate recommendations about structures and variations from the Cairngorms Partnership under Ian Grant's chairmanship. As a result, I would not like to put a time scale on that.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome Keith Raffan's

first question. It is a perfectly fair question to ask, but the trouble is that there is no simple answer to it. He will have noticed that, in my statement, I referred to the fact that consultation and scrutiny take time; and I have no doubt that, at some point in the next few months, I—or my Administration— will be under attack because it is taking so long to deliver the bills. On the other hand, if we did not have proper consultation, we would be very properly under attack for betraying the spirit of the consultative steering group. Therefore, a balance has to be struck. Obviously, I do not want to suffocate the proper process of legislation with endless talk, but I want to listen and learn from people's views. Like everyone else, I have to get such a balance right and the committees, especially those scrutinising areas of policy, will also have a duty to get that balance right. I hope we will do that if we talk sensibly to each other.

There is no template for these bills. Bills change very much in their complexity and I do not think that a simple answer can be given to the question. Before we rise, Sam Galbraith, in his role as education minister, will make a statement about how he intends to handle education legislation. That statement will probably be an interesting example of early thinking on this issue and it may help people who are considering the problems that it will deal with.

As for Mr Raffan's second question, the Loch Lomond national park is clearly our first priority. A consortium of local authorities has existed for some time now and the former Scottish Office— still the Scottish Office for a little while—has, if I remember rightly, put up 80 per cent of the money for the exercise. Everything is well prepared and ready. I am interested in considering the Cairngorms for national park status, but we will have to investigate recommendations about structures and variations from the Cairngorms Partnership under Ian Grant's chairmanship. As a result, I would not like to put a time scale on that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C704552", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 58.0, "ContributionID": 704552, "EditedText": "We can certainly express views on the matter, but I suspect that the road traffic laws, which are uniform across the country, are a matter for Westminster. If he so wishes, Lord Douglas—I am sorry, Lord Selkirk, I always get those things wrong—Lord Selkirk will doubtless find ways to make his views known in his own characteristic style—and that word characteristic is full of meaning.", "EditedTextHTML": "We can certainly express views on the matter, but I suspect that the road traffic laws, which are uniform across the country, are a matter for Westminster. If he so wishes, Lord Douglas—I am sorry, Lord Selkirk, I always get those things wrong—Lord Selkirk will doubtless find ways to make his views known in his own characteristic style—and that word characteristic is full of meaning.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2123E103P242C704553", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Chisholm, Malcolm", "ID": 2123, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh North and Leith" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Malcolm Chisholm", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 60.0, "ContributionID": 704553, "EditedText": "I welcome all those bills, which are refreshingly radical and will command widespread public support. The only one that I am slightly unclear about is the finance bill. Will the First Minister give more detail on the scope of that legislation?", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome all those bills, which are refreshingly radical and will command widespread public support. The only one that I am slightly unclear about is the finance bill. Will the First Minister give more detail on the scope of that legislation?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C704554", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 62.0, "ContributionID": 704554, "EditedText": "I understand Mr Chisholm's uncertainties, as it is a technical bill about the machinery of Parliament. It is a very important bill with far-reaching consequences in regard to the way in which we conduct our business. The chamber will be familiar with the fact that when the consultative steering group was set up, it established the financial issues advisory group, a sub-committee of men and women of particular expertise, to examine this matter. They devised a financial cycle for the planning of finance and for verification that the Parliament's views had been carried out. It is a testing matter because it will ensure that our financial arrangements will be under much more thorough and detailed scrutiny than has been possible at Westminster. For example, supplementary estimates are of some importance. Although at Westminster there may be, in theory, some way in which we can examine supplementary estimates, no one ever does and those go through on the nod. Here there will be machinery for scrutiny in the Finance Committee and relevant ministers can be interviewed—that is a nice, neutral term—so that this Parliament can keep closely in touch with what is happening on financial matters and the allocation of moneys. I say with heartfelt sincerity that there will be times when the Administration will curse all this scrutiny, but it is right that this machinery is put in place.", "EditedTextHTML": "I understand Mr Chisholm's uncertainties, as it is a technical bill about the machinery of Parliament. It is a very important bill with far-reaching consequences in regard to the way in which we conduct our business.

The chamber will be familiar with the fact that when the consultative steering group was set up, it established the financial issues advisory group, a sub-committee of men and women of particular expertise, to examine this matter. They devised a financial cycle for the planning of finance and for verification that the Parliament's views had been carried out. It is a testing matter because it will ensure that our financial arrangements will be under much more thorough and detailed scrutiny than has been possible at Westminster. For example, supplementary estimates are of some importance. Although at Westminster there may

be, in theory, some way in which we can examine supplementary estimates, no one ever does and those go through on the nod. Here there will be machinery for scrutiny in the Finance Committee and relevant ministers can be interviewed—that is a nice, neutral term—so that this Parliament can keep closely in touch with what is happening on financial matters and the allocation of moneys. I say with heartfelt sincerity that there will be times when the Administration will curse all this scrutiny, but it is right that this machinery is put in place.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C704557", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 68.0, "ContributionID": 704557, "EditedText": "Members do not have to press their buttons this morning unless they want to get into the debate this morning.", "EditedTextHTML": "Members do not have to press their buttons this morning unless they want to get into the debate this morning.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C704559", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Children and Education (Mr Sam Galbraith): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 73.0, "ContributionID": 704559, "EditedText": "Come on—rise to the occasion.", "EditedTextHTML": "Come on—rise to the occasion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C704564", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Galbraith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 83.0, "ContributionID": 704564, "EditedText": "That is sound advice.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is sound advice.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C704579", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 114.0, "ContributionID": 704579, "EditedText": "I must have a discussion with Mr Grieve about his ancestry. Of course, most Conservatives are thought to be descended from the sort of people to whom Dennis Canavan refers—like many curses, that has become a badge that we, as Tories, now wear with pride. Legislating for access is a dangerous concept. In our opinion, access should be arranged by consent, as that is the best way of balancing the interests of those who wish to use the countryside for leisure and those for whom it is the base for important economic activity. I question whether prescription or diktat by ministers is the correct way in which to sustain our fragile rural environment. That is our position and we are happy to debate it further.", "EditedTextHTML": "I must have a discussion with Mr Grieve about his ancestry. Of course, most Conservatives are thought to be descended from the sort of people to whom Dennis Canavan refers—like many curses, that has become a badge that we, as Tories, now wear with pride.

Legislating for access is a dangerous concept. In our opinion, access should be arranged by consent, as that is the best way of balancing the interests of those who wish to use the countryside for leisure and those for whom it is the base for important economic activity. I question whether prescription or diktat by ministers is the correct way in which to sustain our fragile rural environment. That is our position and we are happy to debate it further.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C704581", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 118.0, "ContributionID": 704581, "EditedText": "We did not introduce the concept of national parks and the issue requires further examination. We must get away from the notion that national parks are a good thing in themselves, and must examine what they mean for the local economy, the local environment and the people who have to live and work in them. The whole national parks concept raises serious issues of management and funding, which were exemplified in last week's debate on Dr Jackson's motion. At this stage, I want merely to issue a caveat. The Government cannot expect the rest of us to give wholehearted approval to its proposals and to stand cheering from the sidelines simply because it has put out the soundbite \"national park\".", "EditedTextHTML": "We did not introduce the concept of national parks and the issue requires further examination. We must get away from the notion that national parks are a good thing in themselves, and must examine what they mean for the local economy, the local environment and the people who have to live and work in them. The whole national parks concept raises serious issues of management and funding, which were exemplified in last week's debate on Dr Jackson's motion. At this stage, I want merely to issue a caveat. The Government cannot expect the rest of us to give wholehearted approval to its proposals

and to stand cheering from the sidelines simply because it has put out the soundbite \"national park\".

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C704583", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 122.0, "ContributionID": 704583, "EditedText": "Can Dr Jackson's microphone be switched on.", "EditedTextHTML": "Can Dr Jackson's microphone be switched on.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1873E89P171C704584", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jackson, Dr Sylvia", "ID": 1873, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Stirling" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sylvia Jackson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Jackson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 124.0, "ContributionID": 704584, "EditedText": "Does Mr McLetchie agree that the issues that he—quite rightly—raises, and that were taken on board in last week's debate, will be addressed during the interim period preceding the implementation of the legislation, which has, in fact, already begun?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does Mr McLetchie agree that the issues that he—quite rightly—raises, and that were taken on board in last week's debate, will be addressed during the interim period preceding the implementation of the legislation, which has, in fact, already begun?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C704586", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 128.0, "ContributionID": 704586, "EditedText": "Can Mr McLetchie confirm that my memory is correct? I seem to remember voting five times against the fuel price escalator introduced by the Conservative Government in the House of Commons.", "EditedTextHTML": "Can Mr McLetchie confirm that my memory is correct? I seem to remember voting five times against the fuel price escalator introduced by the Conservative Government in the House of Commons.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C704587", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 130.0, "ContributionID": 704587, "EditedText": "Mr Salmond's memory does not fail him on this occasion. As became clear during the election campaign, our objections are now twofold: first, the increases imposed by the Labour Government are higher than those involved when we supported the escalator concept; secondly—this is the key issue—when we get to the top of the escalator, we get off the escalator. We are now getting off the escalator, whereas the Labour party wishes to continue upwards and upwards. It is determined, with the proposals outlined in its transport bill, to put further tolls and taxes on motorists and businesses. I thought that, during the election campaign, I was crystal clear on that point on many occasions, but I am happy to reinforce it now. The truth is that Labour, supported by the Liberal Democrats in their coalition Government, is continuing its UK policy of introducing taxes by the back door in Scotland. We will oppose the Government's every attempt to impose new stealth taxes on Scots. If the financial procedures and auditing bill is intended, as it apparently is, to facilitate the control of public spending—at least in principle, if not in practice—it is welcome. Members may recall that, last week, Mr McConnell, the Minister for Finance, claimed that there was no mention of financial prudence in our manifesto. He obviously did not read very much of it. If he had, he would have seen that the first commitment in it was to \"no new or higher taxes on Scots\".As a prominent advocate of new Labour double- speak, Mr McConnell clearly has trouble with plain English, so I will spell it out again for him. A commitment to oppose additional taxation of any kind means, by definition, that we must live within our means and control public spending in Scotland. We will be happy to support the prudent use of public finances under the Executive's management and I am happy to reassure Mr McConnell—our new iron chancellor—on that point. If Mr McConnell is really concerned about public spending in Scotland, he should—as I have said before—examine the cost of this bloated Government and the soaring costs of the Scottish Parliament building project at Holyrood. The Executive's aspiration to raise education standards is, of course, laudable and welcome. Where its proposals build on the policies the Conservatives introduced in government, we will support them. However, imposing on councils a statutory duty to raise standards will, in itself, make not one whit of difference. Why do we need a law to state what should be a blindingly obvious responsibility? If our preponderantly Labour councils have failed in that responsibility, is it not time—as we said in our manifesto—for some real devolution in education through transferring the management of our schools to local communities? Choice of nursery education for the parents of pre-school children is missing from the Government's proposals. We firmly believe in returning to a system of nursery vouchers, which allows parents to choose the nursery education that is best suited to their, and their children's, needs and does not force them to accept the diktat of their local council. Talking of councils, I come to another feature of the legislative programme. Any reform of local government must aim to restore public confidence in our local authorities, which is sadly lacking. Let us face it: the Executive's ethical standards bill is no more and no less than a damning indictment of the unacceptable face of Scottish Labour in local councils. The Labour party created what the First Minister called the \"distinct Scottish need\" that requires the attention of the Parliament—attention to cleaning out their own middens. There are aspects of the Government's proposals that we welcome. In particular, I welcome the two important measures of law reform: on land tenure and in relation to incapable adults. I believe that in both areas modernisation of the law will be welcomed and widely supported in the Parliament. I cannot help but note, however, in relation to land tenure reform, that some of the greatest abusers of the feudal system are Labour councils who exploit their position as feudal superiors to extract consent payments from their citizens for home extensions and alterations for which they as councils have already given building warrants and planning permission. In Edinburgh alone, the Labour-run council extracts from citizens more than £40,000 a year in this way. Legislative time could be saved if such invidious practices were not sustained by Labour in local government. In relation to the incapable adults bill, I welcome reform of the law in relation to financial management and welfare of the incapacitated. It is an area with which I am well acquainted from my professional life as a solicitor. I think it is right, as Mr Salmond suggested, to exclude the contentious section 5 proposals at this stage so that the practical reforms that I believe will enjoy all-party support can proceed, and other proposals, such as living wills and consent to treatment, which raise major moral and ethical issues, can be more fully examined. Those issues are in any event more appropriate for a member's bill than for an Executive bill.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Salmond's memory does not fail him on this occasion. As became clear during the election campaign, our objections are now twofold: first, the increases imposed by the Labour Government are higher than those involved when we supported the escalator concept; secondly—this is the key issue—when we get to the top of the escalator, we get off the escalator. We are now getting off the escalator, whereas the Labour party wishes to continue upwards and upwards. It is determined, with the proposals outlined in its transport bill, to put further tolls and taxes on motorists and businesses. I thought that, during the election campaign, I was crystal clear on that point on many occasions, but I am happy to reinforce it now. The truth is that Labour, supported by the Liberal Democrats in their coalition Government, is continuing its UK policy of introducing taxes by the back door in Scotland. We will oppose the Government's every attempt to impose new stealth taxes on Scots.

If the financial procedures and auditing bill is intended, as it apparently is, to facilitate the control of public spending—at least in principle, if not in practice—it is welcome. Members may recall that, last week, Mr McConnell, the Minister for Finance, claimed that there was no mention of financial prudence in our manifesto. He obviously did not read very much of it. If he had, he would have seen that the first commitment in it was to

\"no new or higher taxes on Scots\".

As a prominent advocate of new Labour double- speak, Mr McConnell clearly has trouble with plain English, so I will spell it out again for him. A commitment to oppose additional taxation of any kind means, by definition, that we must live within our means and control public spending in Scotland. We will be happy to support the prudent use of public finances under the Executive's management and I am happy to reassure Mr McConnell—our new iron chancellor—on that point. If Mr McConnell is really concerned about public spending in Scotland, he should—as I have said before—examine the cost of this bloated Government and the soaring costs of the Scottish Parliament building project at Holyrood.

The Executive's aspiration to raise education standards is, of course, laudable and welcome. Where its proposals build on the policies the Conservatives introduced in government, we will support them. However, imposing on councils a statutory duty to raise standards will, in itself, make not one whit of difference. Why do we need a law to state what should be a blindingly obvious responsibility? If our preponderantly Labour councils have failed in that responsibility, is it not time—as we said in our manifesto—for some real devolution in education through transferring the management of our schools to local communities?

Choice of nursery education for the parents of pre-school children is missing from the Government's proposals. We firmly believe in returning to a system of nursery vouchers, which allows parents to choose the nursery education

that is best suited to their, and their children's, needs and does not force them to accept the diktat of their local council.

Talking of councils, I come to another feature of the legislative programme. Any reform of local government must aim to restore public confidence in our local authorities, which is sadly lacking. Let us face it: the Executive's ethical standards bill is no more and no less than a damning indictment of the unacceptable face of Scottish Labour in local councils. The Labour party created what the First Minister called the \"distinct Scottish need\" that requires the attention of the Parliament—attention to cleaning out their own middens.

There are aspects of the Government's proposals that we welcome. In particular, I welcome the two important measures of law reform: on land tenure and in relation to incapable adults. I believe that in both areas modernisation of the law will be welcomed and widely supported in the Parliament. I cannot help but note, however, in relation to land tenure reform, that some of the greatest abusers of the feudal system are Labour councils who exploit their position as feudal superiors to extract consent payments from their citizens for home extensions and alterations for which they as councils have already given building warrants and planning permission. In Edinburgh alone, the Labour-run council extracts from citizens more than £40,000 a year in this way. Legislative time could be saved if such invidious practices were not sustained by Labour in local government.

In relation to the incapable adults bill, I welcome reform of the law in relation to financial management and welfare of the incapacitated. It is an area with which I am well acquainted from my professional life as a solicitor. I think it is right, as Mr Salmond suggested, to exclude the contentious section 5 proposals at this stage so that the practical reforms that I believe will enjoy all-party support can proceed, and other proposals, such as living wills and consent to treatment, which raise major moral and ethical issues, can be more fully examined. Those issues are in any event more appropriate for a member's bill than for an Executive bill.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2134E160P198C704608", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McMahon, Michael", "ID": 2134, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton North and Bellshill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael McMahon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Michael McMahon (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 178.0, "ContributionID": 704608, "EditedText": "I welcome the First Minister's statement and congratulate the Executive on bringing forward a legislative programme that will ensure that this Parliament makes a good start in addressing the needs and concerns of the Scottish people. Without directing my attention to any specific area of the programme, I say that, as a Labour member, I am delighted with my party's commitment to social inclusion; equality of opportunity can be clearly identified throughout the proposals that have been presented today.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the First Minister's statement and congratulate the Executive on bringing forward a legislative programme that will ensure that this Parliament makes a good start in addressing the needs and concerns of the Scottish people. Without directing my attention to any specific area of the programme, I say that, as a Labour member, I am delighted with my party's commitment to social inclusion; equality of opportunity can be clearly identified throughout the proposals that have been presented today.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C704616", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 195.0, "ContributionID": 704616, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C704611", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 185.0, "ContributionID": 704611, "EditedText": "The First Minister made a statement of two halves. The first three and a half pages pay excellent lip service to the laudable objectives of social inclusion, eradicating poverty and the like and include lines such as, \"Our aim is social justice in a prosperous Scotland—a Scotland . . . in which all have the opportunity to fulfil their potential.\" He also said that\"we cannot accept a Scotland . . . where one third of Scottish households have below half the average UK income and where one quarter of our housing stock suffers from dampness or condensation.\" I hope that few members—if any—would disagree with those laudable objectives or with the sentiments behind them. All members have to recognise the deep-rooted economic and social problems that beset the people of Scotland. The tragedy of the First Minister's statement is that, although the first three and a half pages pay lip service to the aspirations of the Scottish Executive, the rest of the statement contains very little to achieve those objectives. Indeed, when we consider the major problems of poverty, unemployment and bad housing, the total impact of the legislative programme will be practically zero. Let us consider unemployment. To be fair, for as long as the macro-economic policy that affects Scotland—and which is dictated not by the needs of Scotland but by those of the south-east of England—is set at Westminster, there is no way that the Scottish Executive in a devolved Parliament can overcome the problems created when the UK Chancellor of the Exchequer follows a policy of high interest rates, high exchange rates and massive job losses.", "EditedTextHTML": "The First Minister made a statement of two halves. The first three and a half pages pay excellent lip service to the laudable objectives of social inclusion, eradicating poverty and the like and include lines such as,

\"Our aim is social justice in a prosperous Scotland—a Scotland . . . in which all have the opportunity to fulfil their potential.\"

He also said that

\"we cannot accept a Scotland . . . where one third of Scottish households have below half the average UK income and where one quarter of our housing stock suffers from dampness or condensation.\"

I hope that few members—if any—would disagree with those laudable objectives or with the sentiments behind them. All members have to recognise the deep-rooted economic and social problems that beset the people of Scotland.

The tragedy of the First Minister's statement is that, although the first three and a half pages pay lip service to the aspirations of the Scottish Executive, the rest of the statement contains very little to achieve those objectives. Indeed, when we consider the major problems of poverty, unemployment and bad housing, the total impact of the legislative programme will be practically zero.

Let us consider unemployment. To be fair, for as long as the macro-economic policy that affects Scotland—and which is dictated not by the needs of Scotland but by those of the south-east of England—is set at Westminster, there is no way that the Scottish Executive in a devolved Parliament can overcome the problems created when the UK Chancellor of the Exchequer follows a policy of high interest rates, high exchange rates and massive job losses.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1893E47P78C704612", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnstone, Alex", "ID": 1893, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Johnstone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Johnstone (North-East Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 187.0, "ContributionID": 704612, "EditedText": "Is it not the case that the SNP's policy is to take the economic powers that Mr Neil has spoken about away from Westminster and to hand them to the EC in Brussels?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is it not the case that the SNP's policy is to take the economic powers that Mr Neil has spoken about away from Westminster and to hand them to the EC in Brussels?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C704613", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 189.0, "ContributionID": 704613, "EditedText": "No, that is not the case. We want fiscal power and autonomy for the Scottish Parliament, here in Edinburgh, so that we can reallocate resources on the basis of economic and social need.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, that is not the case. We want fiscal power and autonomy for the Scottish Parliament, here in Edinburgh, so that we can reallocate resources on the basis of economic and social need.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C704614", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Finance (Mr Jack McConnell): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 191.0, "ContributionID": 704614, "EditedText": "Will Mr Neil give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr Neil give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C704617", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 197.0, "ContributionID": 704617, "EditedText": "I will not give way at the moment.The First Minister came back with a bland answer. I have in my hand a document produced by the Parliament's information centre two days ago. It states categorically that, based on the International Labour Organisation measurement, there are 187,000 unemployed people in Scotland. According to the document, the forecast is that unemployment will go up. Nothing in the First Minister's statement will do anything to arrest the projected increase in unemployment or to reduce the figure of 187,000. Similarly, the creation of social exclusion ministries and units is not the answer to the problem of deep-seated poverty in our society. Let us consider the facts. On the accepted measure that a poor household receives less than half the average national wage or income, some 1.2 million people in Scotland live in poor households—25 per cent of the population. Furthermore, 34 per cent of all children in Scotland and 41 per cent of children under five live in poverty, as do 29 per cent of our pensioners. Nothing in the legislative programme will fundamentally alter those figures. I bet my bottom dollar or euro—whatever the case will be—that in a year's time, after we have passed, or not passed, all eight bills in the programme, those figures will remain the same. After the bills are passed, 1.2 million people will still be living in poverty in Scotland, one third of our children will still be living in poverty and 187,000 people will still be on the dole in Scotland. On the first page of the First Minister's statement, he rightly says: \"People ask when the Parliament will begin to make a difference.\" There is no doubt that a number of the proposed bills are welcome, as Mr Salmond and others have said. However, the bills tinker at the edges; they do not address the fundamental problems of unemployment and poverty in our society. In particular, we should not underestimate the impact of unemployment, which is a root cause of poverty in our society. When a person is unemployed, their personality is destroyed. When a large number of people are unemployed for a long time, communities are destroyed. Unemployment leads to poor achievement in education and to a higher incidence of ill health. Unemployment is a cancer in our society and many of the other problems that we face will not be cut out until we tackle unemployment at its roots. There is nothing in the First Minister's statement about that—the word poverty does not even appear in the 2,000 or so words in the statement. I say three things to Labour members. First, they should look again at the legislative programme and give us a programme that will tackle the roots of unemployment and poverty. Secondly, they should recognise the limitations of devolution and demand the powers and resources from Westminster to tackle those problems. Thirdly, they should raise their ambitions for the Scottish people. We do not want this Parliament to sit for four years only for there still to be grinding unemployment and grinding poverty of the kind that we have at present. Success and the difference that we will make will be measured in terms of whether we create new jobs for the unemployed and whether we lift our people out of poverty. If we fail to do that, we will have failed the Scottish people.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will not give way at the moment.

The First Minister came back with a bland answer. I have in my hand a document produced by the Parliament's information centre two days ago. It states categorically that, based on the International Labour Organisation measurement, there are 187,000 unemployed people in Scotland. According to the document, the forecast is that unemployment will go up. Nothing in the First Minister's statement will do anything to arrest the projected increase in unemployment or to reduce the figure of 187,000.

Similarly, the creation of social exclusion ministries and units is not the answer to the problem of deep-seated poverty in our society. Let us consider the facts. On the accepted measure that a poor household receives less than half the average national wage or income, some 1.2 million people in Scotland live in poor households—25 per cent of the population. Furthermore, 34 per cent of all children in Scotland and 41 per cent of children under five live in poverty, as do 29 per cent of our pensioners.

Nothing in the legislative programme will fundamentally alter those figures. I bet my bottom dollar or euro—whatever the case will be—that in a year's time, after we have passed, or not passed, all eight bills in the programme, those figures will remain the same. After the bills are passed, 1.2 million people will still be living in poverty in Scotland, one third of our children will still be living in poverty and 187,000 people will still be on the dole in Scotland.

On the first page of the First Minister's statement, he rightly says:

\"People ask when the Parliament will begin to make a difference.\"

There is no doubt that a number of the proposed bills are welcome, as Mr Salmond and others have said. However, the bills tinker at the edges; they do not address the fundamental problems of unemployment and poverty in our society.

In particular, we should not underestimate the impact of unemployment, which is a root cause of poverty in our society. When a person is unemployed, their personality is destroyed. When a large number of people are unemployed for a long time, communities are destroyed. Unemployment leads to poor achievement in education and to a higher incidence of ill health. Unemployment is a cancer in our society and many of the other problems that we face will not be cut out until we tackle unemployment at its roots. There is nothing in the First Minister's statement about that—the word poverty does not even appear in the 2,000 or so words in the statement.

I say three things to Labour members. First, they should look again at the legislative programme and give us a programme that will tackle the roots of unemployment and poverty. Secondly, they should recognise the limitations of devolution and demand the powers and resources from Westminster to tackle those problems. Thirdly, they should raise their ambitions for the Scottish people. We do not want this Parliament to sit for four years only for there still to be grinding unemployment and grinding poverty of the kind that we have at present. Success and the difference that we will make will be measured in terms of whether we create new jobs for the unemployed and whether we lift our people out of poverty. If we fail to do that, we will have failed the Scottish people.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C704620", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Keith Raffan (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 204.0, "ContributionID": 704620, "EditedText": "It was interesting to hear the previous speaker, Mr Neil, who spoke from the fundamentalist wing of the Scottish National party and who exposed the deep divisions within that party, close as he is sitting to its front bench. Those who speak for independence speak with emotional rather than with economic arguments. Mr Neil did not respond to Mr Johnstone's point about the fundamental contradiction in SNP economic policy. The SNP is forever criticising the Bank of England for setting interest rates in Scotland, yet it is prepared to concede the ability to set interest rates to the European Central Bank. I raised this, and several other points, with Mr Swinney on the hustings during the election campaign, but I never had a satisfactory answer. There is a basic contradiction in SNP economic policy, and I am not surprised that Mr Neil did not give way to Mr McConnell—or indeed to me. The question remains unanswered.", "EditedTextHTML": "It was interesting to hear the previous speaker, Mr Neil, who spoke from the fundamentalist wing of the Scottish National party and who exposed the deep divisions within that party, close as he is sitting to its front bench.

Those who speak for independence speak with emotional rather than with economic arguments. Mr Neil did not respond to Mr Johnstone's point about the fundamental contradiction in SNP economic policy. The SNP is forever criticising the Bank of England for setting interest rates in Scotland, yet it is prepared to concede the ability to set interest rates to the European Central Bank. I raised this, and several other points, with Mr Swinney on the hustings during the election

campaign, but I never had a satisfactory answer. There is a basic contradiction in SNP economic policy, and I am not surprised that Mr Neil did not give way to Mr McConnell—or indeed to me. The question remains unanswered.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C704623", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 210.0, "ContributionID": 704623, "EditedText": "If Mr Swinney will hang on, I will happily give way to him, but not just yet. I want him to hear the full force of what I am about to say. We know the speed with which the SNP can make policy; indeed, it can do so overnight with extraordinary rapidity. However, such policy fails to stand up to scrutiny, as we saw during the election campaign, when it completely disintegrated. I am happy to give way to Mr Swinney, who is still the SNP's vice-chairman, or deputy leader, or finance spokesman—one never knows what will happen next—if he can explain this fundamental contradiction in the SNP's economic policy. Is the SNP prepared to let the European Central Bank set interest rates for Scotland, despite the fact that the party continually attacks the Bank of England for doing so?", "EditedTextHTML": "If Mr Swinney will hang on, I will happily give way to him, but not just yet. I want him to hear the full force of what I am about to say.

We know the speed with which the SNP can make policy; indeed, it can do so overnight with extraordinary rapidity. However, such policy fails to stand up to scrutiny, as we saw during the election campaign, when it completely disintegrated. I am happy to give way to Mr Swinney, who is still the SNP's vice-chairman, or deputy leader, or finance spokesman—one never knows what will happen next—if he can explain this fundamental contradiction in the SNP's economic policy. Is the SNP prepared to let the European Central Bank set interest rates for Scotland, despite the fact that the party continually attacks the Bank of England for doing so?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C704632", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 228.0, "ContributionID": 704632, "EditedText": "I made many mistakes, almost as many as Mr Salmond. If he examines the reports of the committee stage of the poll tax bill, he will find that I expressed reservations about the community charge at the time.", "EditedTextHTML": "I made many mistakes, almost as many as Mr Salmond. If he examines the reports of the committee stage of the poll tax bill, he will find that I expressed reservations about the community charge at the time.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C704635", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 234.0, "ContributionID": 704635, "EditedText": "Will Mr Raffan please keep to the legislative programme.", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr Raffan please keep to the legislative programme.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C704640", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 244.0, "ContributionID": 704640, "EditedText": "I will give way, then.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will give way, then.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C704641", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 246.0, "ContributionID": 704641, "EditedText": "Mr Raffan expresses the hope that there will be much more time in this legislature to debate bills. As we will meet for only 31 weeks in a year and for only one and a half days a week, will we have time to consider bills in detail?", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Raffan expresses the hope that there will be much more time in this legislature to debate bills. As we will meet for only 31 weeks in a year and for only one and a half days a week, will we have time to consider bills in detail?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C704642", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 248.0, "ContributionID": 704642, "EditedText": "Mr Gallie makes a valuable point and I know that other members, including Mr Gorrie, share his concern about the number of weeks in which we are likely to be meeting. I understand that, in a week, we will meet for one and a half days in plenary and for one and a half days in committee, but that may not be enough. In Westminster, select committees tend to sit weekly; standing committees sit more frequently. I hope that this Parliament will be flexible about the number of meetings that we have, as it is important that we examine legislation in detail. On the transport bill, road-user charging and workplace parking charges are important, but it is vital that any revenue raised is spent on public transport. This is a chicken-and-egg situation. We are going to put extra taxes on car users, so at the same time we must improve public transport. An integrated transport system is a great phrase, but we have yet to see much evidence of it. We must invest far more in public transport and we must do so soon. It is also crucial that we take freight off the road and put it on to rail. In this country, we have only 700 freight-loading points, whereas France and Germany have 15,000 between them. We must examine closely how we can invest more in our railway system and move freight from road to rail. I am glad that the proposal to improve and to integrate concessionary fares systems for pensioners and for those in special need is also included in the transport bill. We should have an integrated concessionary fares scheme across the country. I agreed with Nicola Sturgeon's comments on education. Raising standards and increasing resources go together. I am sorry that she is no longer in the chamber, but I am sure that the SNP will take the following point on board. Mr Andrew Wilson asked what differences the partnership agreement had made. I will give a few figures that explain the difference. First, there are 500 more teachers thanks to the partnership agreement between the Scottish Liberal Democrats and the Scottish Labour party. Secondly, an additional £21 million—£24 per pupil—will be spent on books thanks to the partnership agreement. Thirdly, there will be a £9 million pilot scheme to encourage pupils from low- income families to stay on for further education thanks to the partnership agreement. On top of that, a massive £600 million will be invested to deal with the school building maintenance backlog thanks to the partnership agreement. I know that Mr Salmond—who quotes selectively from the partnership agreement—will be glad to welcome that additional expenditure, which the Liberal Democrats managed to obtain from the Labour party in the partnership agreement.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Gallie makes a valuable point and I know that other members, including Mr Gorrie, share his concern about the number of weeks in which we are likely to be meeting. I understand that, in a week, we will meet for one and a half days in plenary and for one and a half days in committee, but that may not be enough. In Westminster, select committees tend to sit weekly; standing committees sit more frequently. I hope that this Parliament will be flexible about the number of meetings that we have, as it is important that we examine legislation in detail.

On the transport bill, road-user charging and workplace parking charges are important, but it is vital that any revenue raised is spent on public transport. This is a chicken-and-egg situation. We are going to put extra taxes on car users, so at the same time we must improve public transport. An integrated transport system is a great phrase, but we have yet to see much evidence of it. We must invest far more in public transport and we must do so soon. It is also crucial that we take freight off the road and put it on to rail. In this country, we have only 700 freight-loading points, whereas France and Germany have 15,000 between them. We must examine closely how we can invest more in our railway system and move freight from road to rail.

I am glad that the proposal to improve and to integrate concessionary fares systems for pensioners and for those in special need is also included in the transport bill. We should have an integrated concessionary fares scheme across the country.

I agreed with Nicola Sturgeon's comments on education. Raising standards and increasing resources go together. I am sorry that she is no longer in the chamber, but I am sure that the SNP will take the following point on board.

Mr Andrew Wilson asked what differences the partnership agreement had made. I will give a few figures that explain the difference. First, there are 500 more teachers thanks to the partnership agreement between the Scottish Liberal Democrats and the Scottish Labour party. Secondly, an additional £21 million—£24 per pupil—will be spent on books thanks to the partnership agreement. Thirdly, there will be a £9 million pilot scheme to encourage pupils from low- income families to stay on for further education thanks to the partnership agreement. On top of that, a massive £600 million will be invested to deal with the school building maintenance backlog thanks to the partnership agreement. I know that Mr Salmond—who quotes selectively from the partnership agreement—will be glad to welcome that additional expenditure, which the Liberal Democrats managed to obtain from the Labour party in the partnership agreement.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C704660", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 289.0, "ContributionID": 704660, "EditedText": "I will not give way just yet.My final point is about access. I know many of the areas involved fairly well and have never encountered difficulty obtaining access to hills and open moorland. Generally speaking, hillwalkers have been relatively happy with voluntary access codes. I will watch the Executive's proposals with interest, as I would be concerned if access proposals threw up difficulties for farming and other rural businesses on actively farmed land. We must be careful to protect the genuine economic interests of those who live on the land in fragile and isolated communities. If Dr Jackson still has a point to make, I will give way.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will not give way just yet.

My final point is about access. I know many of the areas involved fairly well and have never encountered difficulty obtaining access to hills and open moorland. Generally speaking, hillwalkers have been relatively happy with voluntary access codes. I will watch the Executive's proposals with interest, as I would be concerned if access proposals threw up difficulties for farming and other rural businesses on actively farmed land. We must be careful to protect the genuine economic interests of those who live on the land in fragile and isolated communities.

If Dr Jackson still has a point to make, I will give way.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C704646", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 258.0, "ContributionID": 704646, "EditedText": "I would like to address much of what is not included in the Government's priorities. Having stood twice for Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber and now being a list member for the Highlands and Islands, I can honestly say that issues such as health and education were raised by far greater numbers of constituents than raised issues of land reform. I believe that everyone in this chamber came here with a commitment to improving the health of Scotland. Health accounts for one third of this Parliament's budget, it is one third of our responsibilities, yet in the First Minister's statement there was but one passing mention of the chronic heart disease and cancer problems that we have in this country. I must express my disappointment—and, I am sure, the disappointment of many in the chamber—that health has not been given the priority that I feel it deserves. The people of Scotland will judge this Parliament by how we care for two of the most vulnerable groups in our society: our children and the elderly. In the next four years, the Conservatives will clearly pursue the health commitments that we set out in our manifesto. While I realise that improvements can be made without legislation, I would ask the Government to make it clear what the health priorities are in the Scottish Parliament and when it will address those priorities. Will the Government give us a clear outline of where it stands on health? Too many concerns to mention in this Parliament today have already been raised with me, as health spokesman for the Scottish Conservatives. An urgent concern, however, is the issue of blocked beds. There are 1,600 to 1,700 blocked beds each week in the national health service at a cost of about £30 million. Will the Government look at the relationship between social work services and the NHS? Our manifesto made a clear commitment to serve the elderly and the most vulnerable people in our society, to give them seamless transfer of care and to give them the care of their choice. There should also be a level playing field between privately run residential homes and council-run homes. I am shocked to discover that the most common reason for admission of 14-year-olds to in-patient and day care beds is dental decay. When will the Government bring forward a public health bill or address this issue? I look forward to that, as it is a major issue for the British Dental Association, for parents and for children. Trish Godman and Annabel Goldie, who both spoke on drugs, and Keith Raffan, who has raised the issue in a written question, have shown that every member of this Parliament is greatly concerned about the scourge of drugs in Scotland. Margaret Curran mentioned Mothers Against Drugs and the Conservative party has listened to people such as Patsy Siegerson and Cranhill Mothers Against Drugs. I do not mean to score a point here, but I can honestly say that we listened to what they said, we heard what they said and we included their advice in our manifesto. I ask the Labour party again to rethink what Mothers Against Drugs and others with concerns about drugs in Scotland have said, and to please listen to them. Do not just listen to them, but hear what they have to say. I beg the Government to address this issue, whether by the legislative process or otherwise.", "EditedTextHTML": "I would like to address much of what is not included in the Government's priorities. Having stood twice for Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber and now being a list member for the Highlands and Islands, I can honestly say that

issues such as health and education were raised by far greater numbers of constituents than raised issues of land reform.

I believe that everyone in this chamber came here with a commitment to improving the health of Scotland. Health accounts for one third of this Parliament's budget, it is one third of our responsibilities, yet in the First Minister's statement there was but one passing mention of the chronic heart disease and cancer problems that we have in this country. I must express my disappointment—and, I am sure, the disappointment of many in the chamber—that health has not been given the priority that I feel it deserves.

The people of Scotland will judge this Parliament by how we care for two of the most vulnerable groups in our society: our children and the elderly. In the next four years, the Conservatives will clearly pursue the health commitments that we set out in our manifesto. While I realise that improvements can be made without legislation, I would ask the Government to make it clear what the health priorities are in the Scottish Parliament and when it will address those priorities. Will the Government give us a clear outline of where it stands on health?

Too many concerns to mention in this Parliament today have already been raised with me, as health spokesman for the Scottish Conservatives. An urgent concern, however, is the issue of blocked beds. There are 1,600 to 1,700 blocked beds each week in the national health service at a cost of about £30 million. Will the Government look at the relationship between social work services and the NHS? Our manifesto made a clear commitment to serve the elderly and the most vulnerable people in our society, to give them seamless transfer of care and to give them the care of their choice. There should also be a level playing field between privately run residential homes and council-run homes.

I am shocked to discover that the most common reason for admission of 14-year-olds to in-patient and day care beds is dental decay. When will the Government bring forward a public health bill or address this issue? I look forward to that, as it is a major issue for the British Dental Association, for parents and for children.

Trish Godman and Annabel Goldie, who both spoke on drugs, and Keith Raffan, who has raised the issue in a written question, have shown that every member of this Parliament is greatly concerned about the scourge of drugs in Scotland. Margaret Curran mentioned Mothers Against Drugs and the Conservative party has listened to people such as Patsy Siegerson and Cranhill Mothers Against Drugs. I do not mean to score a point here, but I can honestly say that we listened to what they said, we heard what they said and we included their advice in our manifesto. I ask the Labour party again to rethink what Mothers Against Drugs and others with concerns about drugs in Scotland have said, and to please listen to them. Do not just listen to them, but hear what they have to say. I beg the Government to address this issue, whether by the legislative process or otherwise.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C704648", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 262.0, "ContributionID": 704648, "EditedText": "I will give way, but I first want to speak in support of Keith Raffan's point. Our manifesto suggests finding a method of using money from asset confiscation to fund a national drugs strategy and to give families the support that they need when they have a drug user in the family. Support, treatment, rehabilitation and advice are sadly lacking in Scotland and I would ask the Executive to consider those issues.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will give way, but I first want to speak in support of Keith Raffan's point. Our manifesto suggests finding a method of using money from asset confiscation to fund a national drugs strategy and to give families the support that they need when they have a drug user in the family. Support, treatment, rehabilitation and advice are sadly lacking in Scotland and I would ask the Executive to consider those issues.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C704650", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 266.0, "ContributionID": 704650, "EditedText": "Those are examples of measures in health and drugs where there is no need to score points, as we are all committed to curing—or attempting to cure—and to addressing the scourge of drugs in our society. I thank Mr Raffan for his intervention. I have already said that I will be pleased to support him on that issue. On the subject of waiting lists, the message that I have been given by medical practitioners is that we should stop treating headline figures and interfering with professional clinical judgment by dealing with minor cases so as to reduce waiting lists, while major operations must wait. The British Medical Association has already flagged up the issue of junior doctors to us. It is regrettable that the Government has decided to block the reduction of hours and that we are now, for the first time in Scotland in many years, facing industrial action by committed professionals in the health service. I am pleased that the Minister for Health and Community Care said yesterday that she was seeking an early meeting with junior doctors. Much has been said today about social inclusion. As a representative of the Highlands and Islands, I am concerned, as I am sure many other members from the Highlands are, that one indicator for allocating national health service resources is the deprivation index. One of the criteria for that index is car ownership, which assumes that car owners have some wealth. In the Highlands and Islands, a car is not a luxury, but a necessity. Indeed, the costs of owning and using a car and high fuel prices cause deprivation in other parts of the household budget. I therefore ask the Minister for Communities to address the deprivation index when she considers NHS resources for rural areas, the criteria for which should be quite different from those for urban areas. Turning to public health, I am pleased that our poor record of chronic heart disease has been mentioned, but it undoubtedly needs to be addressed by the Executive. I also ask ministers to consider more support and education for families of cardiac patients. Last week, I was told that we had become a nation of spectator rather than participative sportsmen. This week, I heard on the news that Kenny Dalglish has had to go to Bulgaria to find new football players. Why is he not going to Dundee, Aberdeen, Glasgow and Edinburgh?", "EditedTextHTML": "Those are examples of measures in health and drugs where there is no need to score points, as we are all committed to curing—or attempting to cure—and to addressing the scourge of drugs in our society. I thank Mr Raffan for his intervention. I have already said that I will be pleased to support him on that issue.

On the subject of waiting lists, the message that I have been given by medical practitioners is that we should stop treating headline figures and interfering with professional clinical judgment by dealing with minor cases so as to reduce waiting lists, while major operations must wait.

The British Medical Association has already flagged up the issue of junior doctors to us. It is regrettable that the Government has decided to block the reduction of hours and that we are now, for the first time in Scotland in many years, facing industrial action by committed professionals in the health service. I am pleased that the Minister for Health and Community Care said yesterday that she was seeking an early meeting with junior doctors.

Much has been said today about social inclusion. As a representative of the Highlands and Islands, I am concerned, as I am sure many other members from the Highlands are, that one indicator for allocating national health service resources is the deprivation index. One of the criteria for that index is car ownership, which assumes that car owners have some wealth. In

the Highlands and Islands, a car is not a luxury, but a necessity. Indeed, the costs of owning and using a car and high fuel prices cause deprivation in other parts of the household budget. I therefore ask the Minister for Communities to address the deprivation index when she considers NHS resources for rural areas, the criteria for which should be quite different from those for urban areas.

Turning to public health, I am pleased that our poor record of chronic heart disease has been mentioned, but it undoubtedly needs to be addressed by the Executive. I also ask ministers to consider more support and education for families of cardiac patients.

Last week, I was told that we had become a nation of spectator rather than participative sportsmen. This week, I heard on the news that Kenny Dalglish has had to go to Bulgaria to find new football players. Why is he not going to Dundee, Aberdeen, Glasgow and Edinburgh?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C704652", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 270.0, "ContributionID": 704652, "EditedText": "Standards of sport and access to sport in schools are issues that must be raised. I am sure that Mr McConnell will share that view. Finally, like others, I am concerned, as a parent and as a consumer, about academic research. Members will probably agree with me that there is a crying need for credible and accurate advice and information. For more than 30 years, women have worried about the side effects of the pill and have been told that it is okay, then that it is not. Last year, they were told that it is okay. Is it, or will there be another piece of research next week that says that there are dangers? Another major concern for people in Scotland is the measles, mumps and rubella injection. Instead of professors trying to score points against one another, week after week, we need full, credible and accurate advice. I cannot leave out BSE, and Dr Simpson has already made a point about the beef-on-the-bone ban. The Prime Minister tells us that genetically modified foods are all right, but why do we not believe that? There are major concerns on GM foods and I ask the Government to give us some leadership and guidance about them. My final point is on national parks and I would like to endorse what David McLetchie said. Along with other members in the Highlands and Islands, I attended consultative meetings about national parks throughout Strathspey and Badenoch. At the end of a three-hour meeting, we came away with more questions than answers. It is wrong for someone to say, \"It is a national park and so we will vote for it,\" because there are so many types of national parks. I welcome debate that will arise from that issue.", "EditedTextHTML": "Standards of sport and access to sport in schools are issues that must be raised. I am sure that Mr McConnell will share that view.

Finally, like others, I am concerned, as a parent and as a consumer, about academic research. Members will probably agree with me that there is a crying need for credible and accurate advice and information. For more than 30 years, women have worried about the side effects of the pill and have been told that it is okay, then that it is not. Last year, they were told that it is okay. Is it, or will there be another piece of research next week that says that there are dangers?

Another major concern for people in Scotland is the measles, mumps and rubella injection. Instead of professors trying to score points against one another, week after week, we need full, credible and accurate advice. I cannot leave out BSE, and Dr Simpson has already made a point about the beef-on-the-bone ban. The Prime Minister tells us that genetically modified foods are all right, but why do we not believe that? There are major concerns on GM foods and I ask the Government to give us some leadership and guidance about them.

My final point is on national parks and I would like to endorse what David McLetchie said. Along with other members in the Highlands and Islands, I attended consultative meetings about national parks throughout Strathspey and Badenoch. At the end of a three-hour meeting, we came away with more questions than answers. It is wrong for someone to say, \"It is a national park and so we will vote for it,\" because there are so many types of national parks. I welcome debate that will arise from that issue.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C704668", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 305.0, "ContributionID": 704668, "EditedText": "We now continue with the debate on the Executive's legislative proposals. It would be nice if some members of the Executive turned up for the debate. MEMBERS: \"Hear, hear.\" Although I have some requests to speak left over from this morning, I invite any members who want to speak in this afternoon's debate to confirm their intention by pressing their request buttons. If there is an insufficient number of members who want to speak, I will consider taking a motion to close the debate. As a result of that we would move on, earlier than 5 o'clock, to Mr David Mundell's motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "We now continue with the debate on the Executive's legislative proposals. It would be nice if some members of the Executive turned up for the debate. [MEMBERS: \"Hear, hear.\"]

Although I have some requests to speak left over from this morning, I invite any members who want to speak in this afternoon's debate to confirm their intention by pressing their request buttons. If there is an insufficient number of members who want to speak, I will consider taking a motion to close the debate. As a result of that we would move on, earlier than 5 o'clock, to Mr David Mundell's motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C704669", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 307.0, "ContributionID": 704669, "EditedText": "On a point of order, Sir David. Your observation is quite a serious one. There is a convention, certainly in the Westminster Parliament and perhaps in other Parliaments throughout the world, that at least one member of the Executive should be available to hear the points being made. Interruption. I see that the Deputy First Minister is now arriving. I do not know whether he was on duty and is late, or whether his appearance is simply a fortuitous performance.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order, Sir David. Your observation is quite a serious one. There is a convention, certainly in the Westminster Parliament and perhaps in other Parliaments throughout the world, that at least one member of the Executive should be available to hear the points being made. [Interruption.] I see that the Deputy First Minister is now arriving. I do not know whether he was on duty and is late, or whether his appearance is simply a fortuitous performance.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1821E295P538C704671", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Mrs Margaret", "ID": 1821, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Moray" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Margaret Ewing (Moray) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 312.0, "ContributionID": 704671, "EditedText": "Thank you, Sir David. I will not pursue the issue of who is where at any given time, because many games can be played with it, as you and I well know from our experiences in other places. This is my maiden speech in this assembly. I am not sure how many times one is allowed to make a maiden speech in a lifetime, but here I go again. In this chamber, at least, I cannot be called a retread, as I was, rather ungraciously, in 1987, when I rematerialised as the member of Parliament for Moray. To continue the analogy of being a retread, after some 17 years as part of the Scottish minority at Westminster, I decided that I wanted to come home because I genuinely believed that there was an opportunity for new direction, new steering and even new highways. Introducing the legislative programme, the First Minister referred to his statement as starting the line-up. He may be in pole position in the race but, as many drivers can verify, that does not guarantee that a chequered flag will come down on his behalf at the end of the race. The First Minister and I learned some of our political interests at the turbulent chamber known as Glasgow University Union; I know that other members have survived that initiation. The difference, however, between the First Minister and myself—and I say, \"Vive la différence\"—is that he sees this assembly as the completion of what was described as the unfinished business of the much-respected John Smith. I see this assembly as only the beginning of that unfinished business. The terminal point of this organisation will be chosen by the voters of Scotland in the democratic process that is offered to them by us. As an unashamed nationalist, I have never hidden my belief in independence, and I will continue to argue for the right of Scotland to be an independent nation within the community of the world. For various personal reasons, I have not been able to be present in this chamber as much as I would have liked during the past weeks. However, I have watched, I have listened and I have read the reports. Sadly, what has taken place has not been particularly edifying. I do not know whether summer charm schools or makeovers will make any difference to elected members, including myself—perhaps my husband will want to comment on that. What I have gleaned from watching the deliberations of this Parliament is that the electors, the people, the voters, the taxpayers and the commentators have been disappointed with what we have done so far. The First Minister said this morning that this programme was another milestone. He then proceeded down what seemed to be a dead end. He referred to \"exceptional and limited circumstances where it is sensible and proper that the Westminster Parliament legislates in devolved areas of responsibility.\" I wonder whether anyone from the rather empty benches of the Executive could tell me what those exceptional and limited circumstances are. Who will define those circumstances? Will it be the 129 of us who have been elected to this assembly, or will it happen by the recall of Peter Mandelson to No 10? That is one of the fundamental issues which we must address. The legislative programme will impact on my constituency of Moray in a number of ways. I have the pleasure of being the MP who represents the area that produces over 50 per cent of Scotch whisky. It is very tempting sometimes to name all my distilleries, but I will spare members that ordeal this afternoon. Everyone knows, however, that the whisky industry is hugely important to Speyside. It is responsible for many jobs—12,000 directly and 60,000 indirectly—and pays a great deal of money to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. It is a strategic industry that is listed among the top five UK industries. Over the years I have campaigned seriously for whisky industry taxation to be equalised with that of the beer and wine industries. Now the fuel escalator will have an adverse effect on the whisky industry—French cognac producers will escape that problem. In this week's Sunday Herald, Mr McLeish said:\"In the spirit of the new politics, the parliament will listen to the industry, learn and champion its wider concerns in relation to taxation and other issues.\" Yesterday, I met representatives of the Treasury, including the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who said that the Scottish Parliament could lobby on behalf of the Scotch whisky industry as much as it wanted, but taxation is a reserved matter. Is that what was meant by the First Minister's comments this morning? Do we, as a Parliament, agree that we can only eavesdrop, or are we prepared to go centre stage and take an industry such as the Scotch whisky industry on board and ensure that the money that it brings to our economy and the service that it provides are regarded as fundamental to this assembly? The fishing industry was not mentioned this morning. My honourable friend—I am sorry, I keep using these Westminster phrases—Mr Salmond, Alex as we know him, knows only too well, as do many of us, the misfortunes of the Scottish fishing industry. Many of us have had to attend the funerals and memorial services of our men lost at sea. In particular, I recall the loss several years ago of the Premier, from Lossiemouth, where a mother and father lost three sons, just before Christmas. Anyone who has been to a memorial service or a funeral for one lost at sea, knows full well how much passion is given to the singing of the hymn: \"O hear us when we cry to thee,For those in peril on the sea.\"Where will the Parliament stand on the impact on the fishing industry of legislation introduced by Europe? Will the First Minister or his deputy argue at the top table about the significance of the fishing industry to our rural economy and to the economy as a whole? Or will we in this Parliament be eavesdropping on decisions that will impact on the lives and the livelihoods of so many families? The First Minister made no reference in his statement to freedom of information. We have spoken about an inclusive Parliament, which will reach out to people, involving voluntary and statutory organisations alike in the decisions that we reach. There should be involvement of the people, for the people and by the people. Nothing was said about freedom of information, yet Scotland has its own legal system. If we talk about an inclusive Parliament, it is fundamental that we should mention the right to freedom of information. Are we expected not just to eavesdrop, but to tap in to legislation from Westminster? We have an amazing responsibility, 129 of us, elected in various ways to the first Parliament for 300 years. It is a challenge that we must not take lightly; all of us have to work extremely hard. I did not come here to wreck—a word used by the First Minister in his speech—the Parliament. I agree that there will be vigorous debate, but it should be healthy debate. As details of the programme are eventually spelled out, consultation and all, I will continue to advocate that the Parliament should be in the van of forward thinking, if we as individuals take on that responsibility. I shall not be dragged along on the coat tails of an outdated Victorian system. The people of Scotland are not pawns; I am not here to be a pawn of any political system. I came here to work for Scotland and to take Scotland forward to full independence and the rights that she deserves in the international community.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you, Sir David. I will not pursue the issue of who is where at any given time, because many games can be played with it, as you and I well know from our experiences in other places.

This is my maiden speech in this assembly. I am not sure how many times one is allowed to make a maiden speech in a lifetime, but here I go again. In this chamber, at least, I cannot be called a retread, as I was, rather ungraciously, in 1987, when I rematerialised as the member of Parliament for Moray. To continue the analogy of being a retread, after some 17 years as part of the Scottish minority at Westminster, I decided that I wanted to come home because I genuinely believed that there was an opportunity for new direction, new steering and even new highways.

Introducing the legislative programme, the First Minister referred to his statement as starting the line-up. He may be in pole position in the race but, as many drivers can verify, that does not guarantee that a chequered flag will come down on his behalf at the end of the race.

The First Minister and I learned some of our political interests at the turbulent chamber known as Glasgow University Union; I know that other members have survived that initiation. The difference, however, between the First Minister and myself—and I say, \"Vive la différence\"—is that he sees this assembly as the completion of what was described as the unfinished business of the much-respected John Smith. I see this assembly as only the beginning of that unfinished business. The terminal point of this organisation will be chosen by the voters of Scotland in the democratic process that is offered to them by us.

As an unashamed nationalist, I have never hidden my belief in independence, and I will continue to argue for the right of Scotland to be an independent nation within the community of the world.

For various personal reasons, I have not been able to be present in this chamber as much as I would have liked during the past weeks. However, I have watched, I have listened and I have read the reports. Sadly, what has taken place has not been particularly edifying. I do not know whether summer charm schools or makeovers will make any difference to elected members, including myself—perhaps my husband will want to comment on that. What I have gleaned from watching the deliberations of this Parliament is that the electors, the people, the voters, the taxpayers and the commentators have been disappointed with what we have done so far.

The First Minister said this morning that this programme was another milestone. He then proceeded down what seemed to be a dead end. He referred to

\"exceptional and limited circumstances where it is sensible and proper that the Westminster Parliament legislates in devolved areas of responsibility.\"

I wonder whether anyone from the rather empty benches of the Executive could tell me what those exceptional and limited circumstances are. Who will define those circumstances? Will it be the 129 of us who have been elected to this assembly, or will it happen by the recall of Peter Mandelson to No 10? That is one of the fundamental issues which we must address.

The legislative programme will impact on my constituency of Moray in a number of ways. I have the pleasure of being the MP who represents the area that produces over 50 per cent of Scotch whisky. It is very tempting sometimes to name all my distilleries, but I will spare members that ordeal this afternoon. Everyone knows, however, that the whisky industry is hugely important to Speyside. It is responsible for many jobs—12,000 directly and 60,000 indirectly—and pays a great deal of money to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. It is a strategic industry that is listed among the top five UK industries. Over the years I have campaigned seriously for whisky industry taxation to be

equalised with that of the beer and wine industries. Now the fuel escalator will have an adverse effect on the whisky industry—French cognac producers will escape that problem.

In this week's Sunday Herald, Mr McLeish said:

\"In the spirit of the new politics, the parliament will listen to the industry, learn and champion its wider concerns in relation to taxation and other issues.\"

Yesterday, I met representatives of the Treasury, including the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who said that the Scottish Parliament could lobby on behalf of the Scotch whisky industry as much as it wanted, but taxation is a reserved matter.

Is that what was meant by the First Minister's comments this morning? Do we, as a Parliament, agree that we can only eavesdrop, or are we prepared to go centre stage and take an industry such as the Scotch whisky industry on board and ensure that the money that it brings to our economy and the service that it provides are regarded as fundamental to this assembly?

The fishing industry was not mentioned this morning. My honourable friend—I am sorry, I keep using these Westminster phrases—Mr Salmond, Alex as we know him, knows only too well, as do many of us, the misfortunes of the Scottish fishing industry. Many of us have had to attend the funerals and memorial services of our men lost at sea. In particular, I recall the loss several years ago of the Premier, from Lossiemouth, where a mother and father lost three sons, just before Christmas. Anyone who has been to a memorial service or a funeral for one lost at sea, knows full well how much passion is given to the singing of the hymn:

\"O hear us when we cry to thee,

For those in peril on the sea.\"

Where will the Parliament stand on the impact on the fishing industry of legislation introduced by Europe? Will the First Minister or his deputy argue at the top table about the significance of the fishing industry to our rural economy and to the economy as a whole? Or will we in this Parliament be eavesdropping on decisions that will impact on the lives and the livelihoods of so many families?

The First Minister made no reference in his statement to freedom of information. We have spoken about an inclusive Parliament, which will reach out to people, involving voluntary and statutory organisations alike in the decisions that we reach. There should be involvement of the people, for the people and by the people. Nothing was said about freedom of information, yet Scotland has its own legal system. If we talk about an inclusive Parliament, it is fundamental that we should mention the right to freedom of information. Are we expected not just to eavesdrop, but to tap in to legislation from Westminster?

We have an amazing responsibility, 129 of us, elected in various ways to the first Parliament for 300 years. It is a challenge that we must not take lightly; all of us have to work extremely hard. I did not come here to wreck—a word used by the First Minister in his speech—the Parliament. I agree that there will be vigorous debate, but it should be healthy debate. As details of the programme are eventually spelled out, consultation and all, I will continue to advocate that the Parliament should be in the van of forward thinking, if we as individuals take on that responsibility. I shall not be dragged along on the coat tails of an outdated Victorian system. The people of Scotland are not pawns; I am not here to be a pawn of any political system. I came here to work for Scotland and to take Scotland forward to full independence and the rights that she deserves in the international community.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C704681", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 334.0, "ContributionID": 704681, "EditedText": "I would like to point out to members that we have had only three speeches in half an hour of debate. At this rate, there will be an awful lot of disappointed members at the end of the afternoon. This is not the kind of debate in which I should impose a time limit on speeches, but members should bear in mind the needs of others.", "EditedTextHTML": "I would like to point out to members that we have had only three speeches in half an hour of debate. At this rate, there will be an awful lot of disappointed members at the end of the afternoon. This is not the kind of debate in which I should impose a time limit on speeches, but members should bear in mind the needs of others.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C704683", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 339.0, "ContributionID": 704683, "EditedText": "Thank you, Mr Jenkins, both for your kind opening remarks and for your timing.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you, Mr Jenkins, both for your kind opening remarks and for your timing.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1840E82P158C704684", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macmillan, Maureen", "ID": 1840, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Maureen Macmillan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Maureen Macmillan (Highlands and Islands) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 342.0, "ContributionID": 704684, "EditedText": "I want to express my appreciation for what the forthcoming legislation will do for the Highlands and Islands, in particular for Gaelic- medium education and in the plans for land reform. Tha mi duilich. Chan eil moran Gàidhlig agam. That means, \"I am sorry. I do not have much Gaelic\"—when I was a child, it was educated out of me. I went to a school where there were four Gaelic-speaking teachers and most of the children came from Gaelic-speaking homes, yet not a word of Gaelic was spoken in the classroom. I know of schools where all the children came from Gaelic- speaking homes, and where the teacher could not speak any Gaelic. Thus, a language was almost lost. The educational establishment in those days was indifferent, sometimes even hostile. It was thought that Gaelic would hold children back; they thought that it would somehow prevent children from reading and writing properly in English and that it would be an educational disadvantage. Thankfully, educationists abandoned that position long ago, realising the positive value of learning, or being taught from an early age in, a language other than English. Ability in two languages engenders in children a linguistic confidence and one hopes that it will make a difference in the way in which they approach learning French or German in later years. Parents recognise that, and even non-Gaelic-speaking parents recognise the value of Gaelic-medium education. A report to be published in the autumn will confirm that that is the case and that Gaelic- medium education has a positive educational advantage. The majority of children in Gaelic-medium nursery education and playgroups come from non- Gaelic-speaking homes. It is wonderful that parents whose families lost their Gaelic perhaps two generations ago are beginning to learn it again with their children through simple fun, games and drama. I know of three women who learned Gaelic again that way. Two of them are now working in Gaelic-medium education; the other is doing her PhD in Gaelic poetry at Edinburgh University. The culture is being revived and strengthened. Of course, Gaelic-medium education is not confined to the Highlands and Islands; it takes place throughout Scotland. Someone asked me to mention in particular the Gaelic-medium school in Glasgow.", "EditedTextHTML": "I want to express my appreciation for what the forthcoming legislation will do for the Highlands and Islands, in particular for Gaelic- medium education and in the plans for land reform.

Tha mi duilich. Chan eil moran Gàidhlig agam. That means, \"I am sorry. I do not have much Gaelic\"—when I was a child, it was educated out of me. I went to a school where there were four Gaelic-speaking teachers and most of the children came from Gaelic-speaking homes, yet not a word of Gaelic was spoken in the classroom. I know of schools where all the children came from Gaelic- speaking homes, and where the teacher could not speak any Gaelic. Thus, a language was almost lost.

The educational establishment in those days was indifferent, sometimes even hostile. It was thought that Gaelic would hold children back; they thought that it would somehow prevent children from reading and writing properly in English and that it would be an educational disadvantage.

Thankfully, educationists abandoned that position long ago, realising the positive value of learning, or being taught from an early age in, a language other than English. Ability in two languages engenders in children a linguistic confidence and one hopes that it will make a difference in the way in which they approach learning French or German in later years. Parents recognise that, and even non-Gaelic-speaking parents recognise the value of Gaelic-medium education. A report to be published in the autumn will confirm that that is the case and that Gaelic- medium education has a positive educational advantage.

The majority of children in Gaelic-medium nursery education and playgroups come from non- Gaelic-speaking homes. It is wonderful that parents whose families lost their Gaelic perhaps two generations ago are beginning to learn it again with their children through simple fun, games and drama. I know of three women who learned Gaelic again that way. Two of them are now working in Gaelic-medium education; the other is doing her PhD in Gaelic poetry at Edinburgh University. The culture is being revived and strengthened.

Of course, Gaelic-medium education is not confined to the Highlands and Islands; it takes place throughout Scotland. Someone asked me to mention in particular the Gaelic-medium school in Glasgow.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1820E139P227C704690", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Curran, Margaret", "ID": 1820, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Baillieston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Curran", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Curran rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 355.0, "ContributionID": 704690, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1820E139P227C704692", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Curran, Margaret", "ID": 1820, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Baillieston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Curran", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Curran rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 359.0, "ContributionID": 704692, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1893E47P78C704700", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnstone, Alex", "ID": 1893, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Johnstone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Johnstone: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 376.0, "ContributionID": 704700, "EditedText": "That lady did me a great service by developing her argument in a way that was entirely opposite to the way that I would have chosen, which reminded me how greatly the experiences of members differ: Ms Curran and I could almost have come from different planets. I come from the farming community of the north-east, where I was born and where I live to this day. My priorities are entirely different from those of many in the Administration. Nevertheless, I have similar priorities in the sense that I see, in my area, the same problems of poverty and deprivation. Those problems are not being solved—they are becoming worse. That is a direct result of the way in which the farming industry has been treated over the past two years. The First Minister's statement this morning contained proposals for three bills that will affect Scotland's farming industry. I accept that there is nothing in those proposals that is not there for a good reason. However, my concern is that the three bills have been put forward to the exclusion of anything that can really help our farming industry. I would have expected that the coalition group that formed the Government would have had considerable expertise in the farming industry, which could have been applied to solving the problems. However, the priorities of Scottish Labour are the priorities of a predominantly urban party, which has superimposed its values on the rural communities of Scotland. I ask it to take the opportunity to look more closely at what can be done for Scotland's farming industry. We have always said that a strong farming industry underpins Scotland's rural economy. If we are not very careful, we will soon have no farming industry to do that underpinning. I ask that due consideration be given to that. If we want to know what priorities we should pursue, we need look no further than the partnership document drawn up by the Labour party and the Liberal Democrats, from which I draw my evidence that this Administration understands the problems better than it is prepared to admit. The document says that the Government will promote the Scottish food industry and that it is prepared to introduce an independent appeals mechanism for farmers who face penalties relating to their European Union subsidy claims. Those are among the priorities that I hear about every day.", "EditedTextHTML": "That lady did me a great service by developing her argument in a way that was entirely opposite to the way that I would have chosen, which reminded me how greatly the experiences of members differ: Ms Curran and I could almost have come from different planets.

I come from the farming community of the north-east, where I was born and where I live to this day. My priorities are entirely different from those of many in the Administration. Nevertheless, I have similar priorities in the sense that I see, in my area, the same problems of poverty and deprivation. Those problems are not being

solved—they are becoming worse. That is a direct result of the way in which the farming industry has been treated over the past two years.

The First Minister's statement this morning contained proposals for three bills that will affect Scotland's farming industry. I accept that there is nothing in those proposals that is not there for a good reason. However, my concern is that the three bills have been put forward to the exclusion of anything that can really help our farming industry.

I would have expected that the coalition group that formed the Government would have had considerable expertise in the farming industry, which could have been applied to solving the problems. However, the priorities of Scottish Labour are the priorities of a predominantly urban party, which has superimposed its values on the rural communities of Scotland. I ask it to take the opportunity to look more closely at what can be done for Scotland's farming industry. We have always said that a strong farming industry underpins Scotland's rural economy. If we are not very careful, we will soon have no farming industry to do that underpinning. I ask that due consideration be given to that.

If we want to know what priorities we should pursue, we need look no further than the partnership document drawn up by the Labour party and the Liberal Democrats, from which I draw my evidence that this Administration understands the problems better than it is prepared to admit. The document says that the Government will promote the Scottish food industry and that it is prepared to introduce an independent appeals mechanism for farmers who face penalties relating to their European Union subsidy claims. Those are among the priorities that I hear about every day.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C704701", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Rural Affairs (Ross Finnie): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 378.0, "ContributionID": 704701, "EditedText": "Mr Johnstone said that the partnership document made no reference to how we could deal with the farming industry and he questioned why there was no legislation. Does he accept that it was perhaps more helpful that the Government was this morning launching the food chain strategy, which is aimed at taking the cost out of the food chain for the benefit of the primary producer? That is what the Government was doing this morning.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Johnstone said that the partnership document made no reference to how we could deal with the farming industry and he questioned why there was no legislation. Does he accept that it was perhaps more helpful that the Government was this morning launching the food chain strategy, which is aimed at taking the cost out of the food chain for the benefit of the primary producer? That is what the Government was doing this morning.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1893E47P78C704702", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnstone, Alex", "ID": 1893, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Johnstone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Johnstone: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 380.0, "ContributionID": 704702, "EditedText": "I accept every Government action that will benefit Scotland's farming industry. My problem with the legislative programme that was set out this morning is that it largely deals with problems that are not perceived as being top priorities in much of rural Scotland. The important thing for much of rural Scotland is that our industry is supported.", "EditedTextHTML": "I accept every Government action that will benefit Scotland's farming industry. My problem with the legislative programme that was set out this morning is that it largely deals with problems that are not perceived as being top priorities in much of rural Scotland. The important thing for much of rural Scotland is that our industry is supported.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1893E47P78C704704", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnstone, Alex", "ID": 1893, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Johnstone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Johnstone: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 384.0, "ContributionID": 704704, "EditedText": "I am not here to defend the actions of the previous UK Government, but I must remind Mr Raffan that in the two years since the election in 1997 the economic position of the farming industry in Scotland has been radically altered. There is a sound argument that the problems of the beef industry have their roots in the problems of BSE, but nothing in the problems associated with BSE can account for the problems that now cause our dairy farmers—of whom I am one—to be in a desperate financial position. Nothing in the problems associated with BSE has caused the collapse in grain prices; nothing in them has resulted in the collapse of the sheep industry; nothing in them has caused the unprecedented across-the-board collapse in Scottish agriculture. Finally, nothing associated with BSE has seriously undermined the pig industry in Scotland. The problems in the pig industry have been caused entirely because the British Government has introduced welfare regulations faster than other European Governments have. That puts pig farmers in an unfair position in competing with their European counterparts.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am not here to defend the actions of the previous UK Government, but I must remind Mr Raffan that in the two years since the election in 1997 the economic position of the farming industry in Scotland has been radically altered. There is a sound argument that the problems of the beef industry have their roots in the problems of BSE, but nothing in the problems associated with BSE can account for the problems that now cause our dairy farmers—of whom I am one—to be in a desperate financial position. Nothing in the problems associated with BSE has caused the collapse in grain prices; nothing in them has resulted in the collapse of the sheep industry; nothing in them has caused the unprecedented across-the-board collapse in Scottish agriculture.

Finally, nothing associated with BSE has seriously undermined the pig industry in Scotland. The problems in the pig industry have been caused entirely because the British Government has introduced welfare regulations faster than other European Governments have. That puts pig farmers in an unfair position in competing with their European counterparts.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C704712", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 402.0, "ContributionID": 704712, "EditedText": "Let us have a vote on it, Keith, and see where it goes. I think that if people in this chamber examined the cost in a free vote, for example from the Labour party, many Labour members would support—Interruption. Mr Swinney, with great reluctance I agree to give way.", "EditedTextHTML": "Let us have a vote on it, Keith, and see where it goes. I think that if people in this chamber examined the cost in a free vote, for example from the Labour party, many Labour members would support—[Interruption.] Mr Swinney, with great reluctance I agree to give way.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C704708", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 394.0, "ContributionID": 704708, "EditedText": "I begin by pointing out to Phil Gallie, in relation to his comments to Margaret Ewing on unionist parties, that six parties are represented in this chamber, three of which support independence as an end aim, albeit that two of those parties have only one member in the chamber. I call that constitutional progress. Also, after Paul Martin's outrageous attack on the people of Bearsden this morning, the Minister for Children and Education may want to defend his constituents at the next Labour group meeting and bridge the yawning chasm inside the Labour party group. I thank the Executive for its courtesy in allowing Opposition front benchers foresight of the statement and for not announcing some of the measures before they were heard by the Scottish Parliament, although the Inverness Courier appears to have foresight of something on Gaelic that we have not been warned about. That is a precedent that should be followed at all times in this chamber. A little less action from those responsible for the hyperspin that comes from the publicly funded Labour press office and a bit more representation in the chamber would be a good thing. That said, the programme is, to say the least, very light indeed. Some of the helium that filled the balloons of the election campaign has clearly found its way into the legislative programme. There is, however, much in the programme that we welcome. This morning and this afternoon, Labour spokespeople have said much about social justice and other such measures. I would say to them, as was said all through the debate, that it is all very well expounding in rhetorical flourishes the great aims of the Labour movement as was, but there is nothing in this programme to tackle jobs, poverty or housing. This morning Alex Neil made a similar point: we have three pages of rhetoric in the First Minister's statement followed by no action. On the Executive benches, there is a growing trend to say a lot on one thing and then to act entirely differently. The legislative programme contains nothing on freedom of information, an issue from Labour's own programme, which is mentioned in its manifesto and other statements. We are told by press briefings that Mr Wallace will make an announcement on the issue, but why is it not on the legislative programme? There is nothing on the status of the Gaelic language, notwithstanding the report in the Inverness Courier; nothing on a national waste strategy despite a Scottish Environment Protection Agency green paper to that effect; nothing that develops the white paper on social work; and nothing on a drug enforcement agency. From my perspective most important of all, there is nothing on housing. After Fiona Hyslop's contribution this morning, the Government must surely act on a homelessness strategy and we must hear something about what it is going to do to tackle homelessness. I see that Mr McConnell has left for coffee, but I will discuss the financial strategy. I welcome the idea of openness and clarity in a financial strategy which is put before the Parliament. I point out that my colleague Mr Swinney and I have been calling for such a strategy since February 1998 and before. It took Labour 10 months in the Scottish Office to respond to our request and, when we got a response, there was a distinct lack of clarity and detail in its expenditure plans. For example, the plans were broken down to the detail of a £3.5 billion expenditure line on health. We want to pursue the issue of a financial strategy. Before the bill comes to the chamber or, more accurately, before the financial issues statement is discussed, I hope that the Government will allow Opposition spokespeople foresight on what will be said so that we can prepare adequately in advance and scrutinise the Government's programme. I have written to the head of the civil service asking for such a briefing. I hope that the financial strategy will bring an end to the practice of announcing cash rises that disguise the fact that we are experiencing real- terms cuts in public spending. Michael Forsyth started the trend and the Labour party has taken it up with gusto in its first budgets. I hope that there will not be any more repeat announcements of the same spending plans, trying to dress them up with new PR every day to give the publicly funded Labour spin office something to do. I hope that Labour will open up the accounts and expenditure plans of the entire Scottish government community, which includes local government. I hope that it will publish the cost of the statutory requirements placed on local government rather than just the spending grants that they have been given. That will reveal the mismatch and the gaping black hole in local government finance for the coming four years which will lead, without fear of peradventure, to rises in council tax as a direct result of Labour cuts. I see Cathy Craigie at the back. She has heard me go on about Labour cuts throughout the election campaign and I apologise for the fact that she is about to have to do so again. We should examine the context in which we are discussing the Government's legislative programme, which is one of serious stringency in public expenditure. I will run through one or two examples from the Government's published figures. Labour is spending £121 million less on education in its first three years in power than Michael Forsyth, that great beneficiary of public services, did in the Tories' final three years. Labour is spending £176 million less on housing in its first three years in power than the Tories did in their final three years. Labour, the guardians of the people's councils, spent £1.31 billion less on local authorities than the Tories in their final three years. The list goes on and on. More important, there is the issue of the Barnett squeeze, which was raised in an SNP Saltire paper last summer and taken up by the Fraser of Allander Institute during the election campaign. Will the Government answer for the fact that spending in the area of the Scottish block will increase two and a half times more slowly than the equivalent spending in England? Why is it that health spending in Scotland can take that hit? Is it because our health standards are becoming so much better than those in England are? Of course not. If spending that amount today is justified, why is spending that amount over the next period not justified? During the next three years, we will have £387 million less spent on the health service in Scotland than if the increases were in line with those in England. The Government's health spokesperson should consider that point closely. In that context, I would like to draw to members' attention, as Mr Salmond did earlier, the Liberal Democrat approach to the issue of tax-varying powers. Given the context that I have just laid out, why is it that during the election campaign the Liberal Democrats said that, if necessary, they would use the 1p of the permitted tax-varying powers once they saw the budget announcements from Gordon Brown in spring 2000? We have not seen those budget announcements, yet in the partnership agreement the Liberal Democrats agreed not to use the tax-varying power during the first Parliament. Despite the cuts and the absolute carnage being caused across the public sector, for some reason, overnight and with no explanation, the Liberals have agreed to a volte-face on their potential commitment to using—", "EditedTextHTML": "I begin by pointing out to Phil Gallie, in relation to his comments to Margaret Ewing on unionist parties, that six parties are represented in this chamber, three of which support independence as an end aim, albeit that two of those parties have only one member in the chamber. I call that constitutional progress.

Also, after Paul Martin's outrageous attack on the people of Bearsden this morning, the Minister for Children and Education may want to defend his constituents at the next Labour group meeting and bridge the yawning chasm inside the Labour party group.

I thank the Executive for its courtesy in allowing Opposition front benchers foresight of the statement and for not announcing some of the measures before they were heard by the Scottish Parliament, although the Inverness Courier appears to have foresight of something on Gaelic that we have not been warned about. That is a precedent that should be followed at all times in this chamber. A little less action from those responsible for the hyperspin that comes from the publicly funded Labour press office and a bit more representation in the chamber would be a good thing.

That said, the programme is, to say the least, very light indeed. Some of the helium that filled the balloons of the election campaign has clearly found its way into the legislative programme.

There is, however, much in the programme that we welcome. This morning and this afternoon, Labour spokespeople have said much about social justice and other such measures. I would say to them, as was said all through the debate, that it is all very well expounding in rhetorical flourishes the great aims of the Labour movement as was, but there is nothing in this programme to tackle jobs, poverty or housing. This morning Alex Neil made a similar point: we have three pages of rhetoric in the First Minister's statement followed by no action. On the Executive benches, there is a growing trend to say a lot on one thing and then to act entirely differently.

The legislative programme contains nothing on freedom of information, an issue from Labour's own programme, which is mentioned in its manifesto and other statements. We are told by press briefings that Mr Wallace will make an announcement on the issue, but why is it not on the legislative programme? There is nothing on the status of the Gaelic language, notwithstanding the report in the Inverness Courier; nothing on a national waste strategy despite a Scottish Environment Protection Agency green paper to that effect; nothing that develops the white paper on social work; and nothing on a drug enforcement agency. From my perspective most important of all, there is nothing on housing. After Fiona Hyslop's contribution this morning, the Government must surely act on a homelessness strategy and we must hear something about what it is going to do to tackle homelessness.

I see that Mr McConnell has left for coffee, but I will discuss the financial strategy. I welcome the idea of openness and clarity in a financial strategy which is put before the Parliament. I point out that my colleague Mr Swinney and I have been calling for such a strategy since February 1998 and before. It took Labour 10 months in the Scottish Office to respond to our request and, when we got a response, there was a distinct lack of clarity and detail in its expenditure plans. For example, the plans were broken down to the detail of a £3.5 billion expenditure line on health.

We want to pursue the issue of a financial strategy. Before the bill comes to the chamber or, more accurately, before the financial issues statement is discussed, I hope that the Government will allow Opposition spokespeople foresight on what will be said so that we can prepare adequately in advance and scrutinise the Government's programme. I have written to the head of the civil service asking for such a briefing.

I hope that the financial strategy will bring an end to the practice of announcing cash rises that disguise the fact that we are experiencing real- terms cuts in public spending. Michael Forsyth started the trend and the Labour party has taken it up with gusto in its first budgets. I hope that there will not be any more repeat announcements of the same spending plans, trying to dress them up with new PR every day to give the publicly funded Labour spin office something to do. I hope that Labour will open up the accounts and expenditure plans of the entire Scottish government community, which includes local government. I hope that it will publish the cost of the statutory requirements placed on local government rather than just the spending grants that they have been given. That will reveal the mismatch and the gaping black hole in local government finance for the coming four years which will lead, without fear of peradventure, to rises in council tax as a direct result of Labour cuts.

I see Cathy Craigie at the back. She has heard me go on about Labour cuts throughout the election campaign and I apologise for the fact that she is about to have to do so again.

We should examine the context in which we are discussing the Government's legislative programme, which is one of serious stringency in public expenditure. I will run through one or two examples from the Government's published figures. Labour is spending £121 million less on education in its first three years in power than Michael Forsyth, that great beneficiary of public services, did in the Tories' final three years. Labour is spending £176 million less on housing in its first three years in power than the Tories did in their final three years. Labour, the guardians of the people's councils, spent £1.31 billion less on local authorities than the Tories in their final three years. The list goes on and on.

More important, there is the issue of the Barnett squeeze, which was raised in an SNP Saltire paper last summer and taken up by the Fraser of Allander Institute during the election campaign. Will the Government answer for the fact that spending in the area of the Scottish block will increase two and a half times more slowly than the equivalent spending in England? Why is it that health spending in Scotland can take that hit? Is it because our health standards are becoming so much better than those in England are? Of course not. If spending that amount today is justified, why is spending that amount over the next period not justified? During the next three years, we will have £387 million less spent on the health service in Scotland than if the increases were in line with those in England. The Government's health spokesperson should consider that point closely.

In that context, I would like to draw to members' attention, as Mr Salmond did earlier, the Liberal Democrat approach to the issue of tax-varying powers. Given the context that I have just laid out, why is it that during the election campaign the Liberal Democrats said that, if necessary, they

would use the 1p of the permitted tax-varying powers once they saw the budget announcements from Gordon Brown in spring 2000? We have not seen those budget announcements, yet in the partnership agreement the Liberal Democrats agreed not to use the tax-varying power during the first Parliament. Despite the cuts and the absolute carnage being caused across the public sector, for some reason, overnight and with no explanation, the Liberals have agreed to a volte-face on their potential commitment to using—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C704711", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 400.0, "ContributionID": 704711, "EditedText": "Is there a majority or not?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is there a majority or not?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2223E203P342C704718", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scott, Tavish", "ID": 2223, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Shetland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tavish Scott", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tavish Scott (Shetland) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 415.0, "ContributionID": 704718, "EditedText": "I have thought about a number of comments made today regarding what has to be scrutinised, and then I thought back to the consultative steering group debate that we had last week. That debate was important and useful with regard to committees— how important they are and what they need to do. It seems that some people do not believe in the committee structure that we are going to set up, its importance and the ability of the committee structure to be different from Westminster. They do not believe in its ability to make a difference in this place. Apart from anything else, committees have the power to initiate legislation and to make a difference in the subject areas that they are responsible for. In many of the areas in which members have said that they want to see more action, committees could play an active part by dealing with interest groups that bring forward ideas and by working these ideas up into legislation. There are two routes into that process: not just through the Executive programme but through the ability of committees to bring forward programmes of action. Members who sit on those committees should address that and face up to the challenges of the committee structure. I will make brief points on two bills that I think are particularly important: the transport bill and the land reform bill. The transport bill needs to focus on a number of key issues, including the difference in transport issues for those of us who live in rural areas, as opposed to focusing on the congestion in Scotland's cities. We should face and focus on the question of air pollution, which causes health problems, and the related costs to society and to business, which Ms Goldie mentioned this morning in the context of the Confederation of British Industry report. We need to consider those issues in the context of the bill. It is widely accepted that there is a need for a strategic transport rethink. Investment is needed to improve our public transport and to encourage the transfer of freight from road to rail. This morning I listened to the director-general of the CBI on the radio. In a useful contribution that illustrated the organisation's thinking, he argued that in a tight public expenditure round progress can be made if, where there is road charging and where local authorities can consider charging for workplace parking, revenue from those charges is used to improve public transport and facilitate the movement of freight from rail to road. I hope that those issues will be addressed when the bill is discussed in committee. Earlier, Mrs Ewing mentioned the importance of this Parliament being able to discuss other matters. In the part of the world that I represent and, I know, the whole of the Highlands and Islands, petrol prices were a huge issue in the election campaign. I see nothing wrong with the Transport and the Environment Committee or another appropriate committee considering all measures that impinge on car use in the Highlands and Islands. The committee should accept that the car is a lifeline, just as shipping and air services are, rather than a luxury. It should be able to consider not only the introduction of rate relief for petrol stations or infrastructure improvements such as grants for petrol tanks, but measures such as differential VAT rates. It should carry out a proper investigation of those issues to see where matters can be improved for the rural and island areas of Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have thought about a number of comments made today regarding what has to be scrutinised, and then I thought back to the consultative steering group debate that we had last week. That debate was important and useful with regard to committees— how important they are and what they need to do.

It seems that some people do not believe in the committee structure that we are going to set up, its importance and the ability of the committee structure to be different from Westminster. They do not believe in its ability to make a difference in this place. Apart from anything else, committees have the power to initiate legislation and to make a difference in the subject areas that they are responsible for.

In many of the areas in which members have said that they want to see more action, committees could play an active part by dealing

with interest groups that bring forward ideas and by working these ideas up into legislation. There are two routes into that process: not just through the Executive programme but through the ability of committees to bring forward programmes of action. Members who sit on those committees should address that and face up to the challenges of the committee structure.

I will make brief points on two bills that I think are particularly important: the transport bill and the land reform bill. The transport bill needs to focus on a number of key issues, including the difference in transport issues for those of us who live in rural areas, as opposed to focusing on the congestion in Scotland's cities. We should face and focus on the question of air pollution, which causes health problems, and the related costs to society and to business, which Ms Goldie mentioned this morning in the context of the Confederation of British Industry report. We need to consider those issues in the context of the bill.

It is widely accepted that there is a need for a strategic transport rethink. Investment is needed to improve our public transport and to encourage the transfer of freight from road to rail. This morning I listened to the director-general of the CBI on the radio. In a useful contribution that illustrated the organisation's thinking, he argued that in a tight public expenditure round progress can be made if, where there is road charging and where local authorities can consider charging for workplace parking, revenue from those charges is used to improve public transport and facilitate the movement of freight from rail to road. I hope that those issues will be addressed when the bill is discussed in committee.

Earlier, Mrs Ewing mentioned the importance of this Parliament being able to discuss other matters. In the part of the world that I represent and, I know, the whole of the Highlands and Islands, petrol prices were a huge issue in the election campaign. I see nothing wrong with the Transport and the Environment Committee or another appropriate committee considering all measures that impinge on car use in the Highlands and Islands. The committee should accept that the car is a lifeline, just as shipping and air services are, rather than a luxury. It should be able to consider not only the introduction of rate relief for petrol stations or infrastructure improvements such as grants for petrol tanks, but measures such as differential VAT rates. It should carry out a proper investigation of those issues to see where matters can be improved for the rural and island areas of Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2223E203P342C704722", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scott, Tavish", "ID": 2223, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Shetland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tavish Scott", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tavish Scott: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 423.0, "ContributionID": 704722, "EditedText": "Mr Ewing may be aware that the European Union has examined this question several times, and that member states have the right to argue the case for varying the rate of VAT for individual parts of the EU that are recognised as peripheral. If he is saying that we as the Scottish Parliament should take a view on that and make a strong case for such variation, I agree. I will certainly be doing so, as it is very important. I want to finish by commenting on the land reform bill. The debate should be not only about land, but about the sea bed and its ownership. Those of us who represent areas where the salmon industry is extremely important should recognise that the land reform policy group document \"Recommendations for Action\" includes the sentence: \"The Scottish Law Commission should be invited to undertake a comprehensive review of the law of the foreshore and seabed, with a view to reform.\" That is very welcome and I hope that it can be taken forward. The industry is losing £1.4 million from its kitty—£1.4 million out of its ability to invest. That is a production tax that an industry in great need of restructuring and reinvestment should not have to pay. I hope, therefore, that the ownership of the sea bed can be considered in the context of the land reform bill.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Ewing may be aware that the European Union has examined this question several times, and that member states have the right to argue the case for varying the rate of VAT for individual parts of the EU that are recognised as peripheral. If he is saying that we as the Scottish Parliament should take a view on that and make a strong case for such variation, I agree. I will certainly be doing so, as it is very important.

I want to finish by commenting on the land reform bill. The debate should be not only about land, but about the sea bed and its ownership. Those of us who represent areas where the salmon industry is extremely important should recognise that the land reform policy group document \"Recommendations for Action\" includes the sentence:

\"The Scottish Law Commission should be invited to undertake a comprehensive review of the law of the foreshore and seabed, with a view to reform.\"

That is very welcome and I hope that it can be taken forward. The industry is losing £1.4 million from its kitty—£1.4 million out of its ability to invest. That is a production tax that an industry in great need of restructuring and reinvestment should not have to pay. I hope, therefore, that the ownership of the sea bed can be considered in the context of the land reform bill.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C704727", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 434.0, "ContributionID": 704727, "EditedText": "I did not say that. Sometimes when I debate with Phil I give the argument some credibility by answering the questions. I think the standard of debate has fallen so low that that question does not deserve an answer. What we need are practical steps. That is why, when Donald said this morning that people in Scotland are asking when the Parliament will actually do things—", "EditedTextHTML": "I did not say that. Sometimes when I debate with Phil I give the argument some credibility by answering the questions. I think the standard of debate has fallen so low that that question does not deserve an answer.

What we need are practical steps. That is why, when Donald said this morning that people in Scotland are asking when the Parliament will actually do things—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1762E216P508C704730", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Elder, Dorothy-Grace", "ID": 1762, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 440.0, "ContributionID": 704730, "EditedText": "would like to inform Phil Gallie that the death of Natasha Smith in Easterhouse is perhaps the most important thing that has happened in the past few weeks, and we have been ignoring it.I was at her funeral yesterday; she was aged four and a half. Natasha plunged from the window of her home—a little child who just ran to the window. I saw similar windows in the same block; they give way instantly. In Glasgow we have 57,000 council houses with windows that range from dodgy to unsafe; 30,000 do not even have basic safety catches. That is why that child died. We do not need to wait for the outcome of the autopsy. The child fell straight on her head on to concrete. Her fall was witnessed by other little children and by neighbours and, if the Parliament is going to be family friendly, I must appeal to the members on the other side of the chamber to show proof of that—", "EditedTextHTML": "would like to inform Phil Gallie that the death of Natasha Smith in Easterhouse is perhaps the most important thing that has happened in the

past few weeks, and we have been ignoring it.

I was at her funeral yesterday; she was aged four and a half. Natasha plunged from the window of her home—a little child who just ran to the window. I saw similar windows in the same block; they give way instantly. In Glasgow we have 57,000 council houses with windows that range from dodgy to unsafe; 30,000 do not even have basic safety catches. That is why that child died. We do not need to wait for the outcome of the autopsy. The child fell straight on her head on to concrete. Her fall was witnessed by other little children and by neighbours and, if the Parliament is going to be family friendly, I must appeal to the members on the other side of the chamber to show proof of that—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C704735", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 450.0, "ContributionID": 704735, "EditedText": "On a point of order. I did not come in on the issue of Natasha Smith's death and I have every sympathy. I would like to put on record that that was not the reason for my intervention.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. I did not come in on the issue of Natasha Smith's death and I have every sympathy. I would like to put on record that that was not the reason for my intervention.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C704736", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 452.0, "ContributionID": 704736, "EditedText": "I hope that Natasha's family does not take umbrage at our raising this matter. It is of practical importance to the Parliament because there is a regulation that was introduced by the Tories to pay back capital receipts. It means that any council in Scotland that sells any of their property or land cannot use the proceeds to improve their existing housing stock. We used to be able to do it until four years ago when the Tories introduced that regulation. Two years ago, Labour opposed it and said that they would repeal it. If the First Minister on 2 July is willing to announce that he will repeal that piece of nonsense, as far as local authorities are concerned, then practically—", "EditedTextHTML": "I hope that Natasha's family does not take umbrage at our raising this matter. It is of practical importance to the Parliament because there is a regulation that was introduced by the Tories to pay back capital receipts. It means that any council in Scotland that sells any of their property or land cannot use the proceeds to improve their existing housing stock. We used to be able to do it until four years ago when the Tories introduced that regulation. Two years ago, Labour opposed it and said that they would repeal it. If the First Minister on 2 July is willing to announce that he will repeal that piece of nonsense, as far as local authorities are concerned, then practically—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C704738", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 456.0, "ContributionID": 704738, "EditedText": "I will finish this point and then take an intervention, David. Without any expenditure by the Parliament, that announcement would release £20 million to be spent in the city of Glasgow. That would mean brand-new windows for 10,000 families, safe and secure windows to provide a warm environment. That is the type of action that I would like the Parliament to take. When Donald asks \"When are we going to start doing something?\", I ask when he will announce the repeal of that regulation, so that local authorities which sell any stock can spend the money that is raised from those sales.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will finish this point and then take an intervention, David. Without any expenditure by the Parliament, that announcement would release £20 million to be spent in the city of Glasgow. That would mean brand-new windows for 10,000 families, safe and secure windows to provide a warm environment. That is the type of action that I would like the Parliament to take. When Donald asks \"When are we going to start doing something?\", I ask when he will announce the repeal of that regulation, so that local authorities which sell any stock can spend the money that is raised from those sales.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1863E284P532C704740", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Cunningham, Roseanna", "ID": 1863, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Perth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Roseanna Cunningham", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Roseanna Cunningham (Perth) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 462.0, "ContributionID": 704740, "EditedText": "I will confine my remarks to the remit of the Minister for Justice which, in this Parliament, includes justice, equality and land reform. Specifically, I will address the proposals in the Government's legislative programme, which was set out this morning, and suggest some omissions. That may be a novel approach to a debate on the legislative programme but, nevertheless, I shall try it. In his statement this morning, the First Minister made it quite clear that land reform is perceived as a major plank of the Government's first-year programme. I do not think that three, four or five parties, or the independent member in this chamber, would object to that. I am never certain quite where the Conservatives sit on land reform; there is always the suspicion that they are opposed to any suggestion of reform. I would be interested to hear whether they welcome any of what was suggested this morning.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will confine my remarks to the remit of the Minister for Justice which, in this Parliament, includes justice, equality and land reform. Specifically, I will address the proposals in the Government's legislative programme, which was set out this morning, and suggest some omissions. That may be a novel approach to a debate on the legislative programme but, nevertheless, I shall try it.

In his statement this morning, the First Minister made it quite clear that land reform is perceived as a major plank of the Government's first-year programme. I do not think that three, four or five parties, or the independent member in this chamber, would object to that. I am never certain quite where the Conservatives sit on land reform; there is always the suspicion that they are opposed to any suggestion of reform. I would be interested to hear whether they welcome any of what was suggested this morning.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C704741", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 464.0, "ContributionID": 704741, "EditedText": "I assure Roseanna Cunningham that we would not welcome the SNP's proposals for a series of bureaucratic land councils—bunches of interfering busybodies who know nothing about the management of the land in charge of which the SNP would put them.", "EditedTextHTML": "I assure Roseanna Cunningham that we would not welcome the SNP's proposals for a series of bureaucratic land councils—bunches of interfering busybodies who know nothing about the management of the land in charge of which the SNP would put them.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C704757", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 501.0, "ContributionID": 704757, "EditedText": "Mr John Swinney will wind up the debate for the Scottish National party.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr John Swinney will wind up the debate for the Scottish National party.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C704743", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 468.0, "ContributionID": 704743, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C704748", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 479.0, "ContributionID": 704748, "EditedText": "I regret that it will not be possible to call all members who have indicated that they wish to speak. None the less, I ask remaining speakers to keep their remarks to around three and a half to four minutes.", "EditedTextHTML": "I regret that it will not be possible to call all members who have indicated that they wish to speak. None the less, I ask remaining speakers to keep their remarks to around three and a half to four minutes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1837E108P186C704749", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mulligan, Mary", "ID": 1837, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Linlithgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Mulligan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Mary Mulligan (Linlithgow) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 482.0, "ContributionID": 704749, "EditedText": "I have difficulty with some of the points that have been made today, in that while trying to criticise the programme that has been laid before us, members of the Parliament have wanted only to add to the legislative programme. Each member, in each speech, has introduced to the debate a different aspect to which they would like priority to be given. That emphasises the difficulty that the Executive faced in introducing only eight bills to put through the Parliament over the next year. Each of us has our own priorities, but the Executive has made a great attempt to include bills that will address social justice. That is what will be important in this Parliament. In particular, I welcome the education bill. We all realise that standards must continue to be raised and that we have to make demands of our education system, of our teachers and of ourselves as parents to raise standards. We all welcome proposals that raise standards. I also welcome the stated position that education will stay within local authority control. That is one of the issues on which there has been some discussion about whether the Parliament will seek to assume powers that presently rest with local authorities. I am pleased that we are saying clearly that education will stay under local control, but within a national framework. I will highlight one area in which that issue has caused some difficulties. Following local government reorganisation some years ago, many local authorities found that they did not have adequate special education needs provision. They have tried to address that difficulty over recent years, but special education provision involves particular problems. I am very supportive of children with special education needs remaining in the main stream and being given support to continue there, but some children and young people are unable to do that and therefore need to attend special education schools. I hope that we will ensure in the education bill that the general discussion about raising standards includes special education schools. It is important that we continue to make demands on them to continue to improve the education they provide. I hope that the bill will allow for partnership between local authorities so that they can share their expertise and experience. I also hope that the bill will allow for partnership with the voluntary sector—for example with Capability Scotland, which runs some special education schools—so that we can benefit from its experience. Most important of all, I would welcome partnership with parents, because it is important that parents feel that their views on special education are being taken into account. I welcome the proposals for increasing nursery provision. Nursery provision for children with special education needs should be highlighted, because the fact that children need specific support is often picked up at the nursery stage. If we invest in education for such children, we may give them the confidence that will allow them to move on to mainstream education. We have to set high standards and make demands of our education system. We have to raise attainment and promote social inclusion. It is particularly important that we ensure that we include provision for those children who have special needs.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have difficulty with some of the points that have been made today, in that while trying to criticise the programme that has been laid before us, members of the Parliament have wanted only to add to the legislative programme. Each member, in each speech, has introduced to the debate a different aspect to which they would like priority to be given. That emphasises the difficulty that the Executive faced in introducing only eight bills to put through the Parliament over the next year. Each of us has our own priorities, but the Executive has made a great attempt to include bills that will address social justice. That is what will be important in this Parliament.

In particular, I welcome the education bill. We all realise that standards must continue to be raised and that we have to make demands of our education system, of our teachers and of ourselves as parents to raise standards. We all welcome proposals that raise standards.

I also welcome the stated position that education will stay within local authority control. That is one of the issues on which there has been some discussion about whether the Parliament will seek to assume powers that presently rest with local authorities. I am pleased that we are saying clearly that education will stay under local control, but within a national framework.

I will highlight one area in which that issue has caused some difficulties. Following local government reorganisation some years ago, many local authorities found that they did not have adequate special education needs provision. They have tried to address that difficulty over recent years, but special education provision involves particular problems. I am very supportive of children with special education needs remaining in the main stream and being given support to continue there, but some children and young people are unable to do that and therefore need to attend special education schools.

I hope that we will ensure in the education bill that the general discussion about raising standards includes special education schools. It is important that we continue to make demands on them to continue to improve the education they provide. I hope that the bill will allow for partnership between local authorities so that they can share their expertise and experience. I also hope that the bill will allow for partnership with the voluntary sector—for example with Capability Scotland, which runs some special education schools—so that we can benefit from its experience. Most important of all, I would welcome partnership with parents, because it is important that parents feel that their views on special education are being taken into account.

I welcome the proposals for increasing nursery provision. Nursery provision for children with special education needs should be highlighted, because the fact that children need specific

support is often picked up at the nursery stage. If we invest in education for such children, we may give them the confidence that will allow them to move on to mainstream education.

We have to set high standards and make demands of our education system. We have to raise attainment and promote social inclusion. It is particularly important that we ensure that we include provision for those children who have special needs.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4672278+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2152E53P75C704752", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnston, Nick", "ID": 2152, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nick Johnston", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Nick Johnston (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 491.0, "ContributionID": 704752, "EditedText": "Despite outward appearances, I, too, am a maiden waiting to be deflowered. I am happy to make my maiden speech on the legislative programme. In case I fall foul of some of the rules on transport matters, I will declare an interest as a managing director of a motor distribution company in Edinburgh. There should be only one reason for any of us to be in this Parliament: to create a Scotland that we can be proud to leave to our children and grandchildren. I have a vision of a Scotland where enterprise and success in business, industry and the arts are admired, not despised; where the old are treated with dignity and respect; where communities do not have to wake up in the morning to the depressing outlook of ruined streets and rundown estates; where people can walk without fear and our children can play without being exposed to the monsters that prey on our society; and where people have the dignity of work and the opportunity to put something back into society. We should be able to tell people to raise their sights and their hopes. For a little while this morning, I thought that the First Minister shared my vision, but, alas, I was disappointed. The problem with this Administration is that it does not realise that, in order to see the stars, we must raise our eyes above the horizon. If it were able to realise that, perhaps it might put at the forefront of its policies the agenda of improving the prospects of the people of Scotland and the next generation. We have a duty to educate them in our schools, to cure them in our hospitals, to protect them from the monsters that we have allowed to enter their world, to provide them with an opportunity to work and to lead fulfilling lives in a country not blighted by pollution and neglect and to free them from the selfishness of the worst landlords of all, the Labour local authorities. The basis of the success of Scotland lies in its business base; the basis of all the improvements in the life of Scotland is a healthy business sector. The whole country will benefit from a healthy economic climate and full employment. We should legislate to free business from the burdens of bureaucracy and control wherever possible. Speaking as one who, over 27 years, has helped to create a business that employs more than 500 people, I can inform members that the welter of legislation that has been thrown at us in the past few years has made it increasingly difficult to sustain that level of employment. There are regulations that make it difficult for those who want to work to do so and regulations that discourage small businesses from expanding, such as the working hours directive and the minimum wage, which is so badly framed that it militates against women who return to work. There is paternity legislation, unfair dismissal legislation and so on. The greatest area of increased employment is for regulators and inspectors. I do not blame Labour members, nor do I believe that they and their coalition ragbag are intentionally malicious—they just do not understand business. That collection of social workers, teachers, local council and health service rejects have one thing in common: they have not created a penny of wealth in their lives. All they understand is how to spend the hard-earned tax of other people.", "EditedTextHTML": "Despite outward appearances, I, too, am a maiden waiting to be deflowered. I am happy to make my maiden speech on the legislative programme.

In case I fall foul of some of the rules on transport matters, I will declare an interest as a managing director of a motor distribution company in Edinburgh.

There should be only one reason for any of us to be in this Parliament: to create a Scotland that we can be proud to leave to our children and grandchildren. I have a vision of a Scotland where enterprise and success in business, industry and the arts are admired, not despised; where the old are treated with dignity and respect; where communities do not have to wake up in the morning to the depressing outlook of ruined streets and rundown estates; where people can walk without fear and our children can play without being exposed to the monsters that prey on our society; and where people have the dignity of work and the opportunity to put something back into society.

We should be able to tell people to raise their sights and their hopes. For a little while this morning, I thought that the First Minister shared my vision, but, alas, I was disappointed. The problem with this Administration is that it does not realise that, in order to see the stars, we must raise our eyes above the horizon. If it were able to realise that, perhaps it might put at the forefront of its policies the agenda of improving the prospects of the people of Scotland and the next generation. We have a duty to educate them in our schools, to cure them in our hospitals, to protect them from the monsters that we have allowed to enter their world, to provide them with an opportunity to work and to lead fulfilling lives in a country not blighted by pollution and neglect and to free them from the selfishness of the worst landlords of all, the Labour local authorities.

The basis of the success of Scotland lies in its business base; the basis of all the improvements in the life of Scotland is a healthy business sector. The whole country will benefit from a healthy economic climate and full employment.

We should legislate to free business from the burdens of bureaucracy and control wherever possible. Speaking as one who, over 27 years, has helped to create a business that employs more than 500 people, I can inform members that the welter of legislation that has been thrown at us in the past few years has made it increasingly difficult to sustain that level of employment. There are regulations that make it difficult for those who want to work to do so and regulations that discourage small businesses from expanding, such as the working hours directive and the minimum wage, which is so badly framed that it militates against women who return to work. There is paternity legislation, unfair dismissal legislation and so on. The greatest area of increased employment is for regulators and inspectors.

I do not blame Labour members, nor do I believe that they and their coalition ragbag are intentionally malicious—they just do not understand business. That collection of social workers, teachers, local council and health service rejects have one thing in common: they have not created a penny of wealth in their lives. All they understand is how to spend the hard-earned tax of other people.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4672278+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2152E53P75C704754", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnston, Nick", "ID": 2152, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nick Johnston", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Johnston: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 495.0, "ContributionID": 704754, "EditedText": "I would prefer that the entire United Kingdom was relieved of the burden of those pieces of legislation. I am running out of time.", "EditedTextHTML": "I would prefer that the entire United Kingdom was relieved of the burden of those pieces of legislation.

I am running out of time.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4672278+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2152E53P75C704756", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnston, Nick", "ID": 2152, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nick Johnston", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Johnston: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 499.0, "ContributionID": 704756, "EditedText": "Have I? Thank you, Mr Reid.It is easy to be generous with other people's money, and it is indicative of the Executive's approach that when the First Minister was asked how his legislative programme would help industry and commerce, all he had to offer was increased public spending, which probably includes the public spending on the Holyrood project, an issue on which he seems to have got his sums wrong. Murray Tosh and David McLetchie have laid out our policies on road tolls and parking charges. As a fellow of the Institute of the Motor Industry, I would point out that the adoption of an anti-car culture would spell the end of 400,000 jobs in the motor-related industry in the UK and 50,000 jobs in Scotland. Rather than slam the poor motorist for more revenue, the Executive should bring forward measures to aid the people of rural Scotland who suffer from such high fuel prices and long distances to travel, and for whom the car is a necessity, not a luxury. As someone who has had to suffer the Forth road bridge every day for the past 10 years, I add my plea for a re-examination of the Fife rail routes, to allow those who want to travel by rail to do so. Business and industry need an infrastructure to allow them to compete on level terms with our major competitors. They are entitled to ask the Scottish Parliament to introduce measures that will allow them to succeed and to make a profit, to reinvest and to continue to contribute a fair share of the tax burden. Those measures include a low- tax, entrepreneurial environment and a series of measures to encourage start-up. The uniform business rate should be retained, free from the greedy paws of local government. There must be accountability at every level, with minimum bureaucracy. Business support must be integrated at all levels and all the totally unnecessary icons of control, such as petty planning regulations and building controls, must be abolished. Finally, there must be a review of health and safety legislation. If the Parliament follows a business-friendly agenda, we will be able to instigate the policies that we want, to banish from our society the social evils that we all want to disappear.", "EditedTextHTML": "Have I? Thank you, Mr Reid.

It is easy to be generous with other people's money, and it is indicative of the Executive's approach that when the First Minister was asked how his legislative programme would help industry and commerce, all he had to offer was increased public spending, which probably includes the public spending on the Holyrood project, an issue on which he seems to have got his sums wrong.

Murray Tosh and David McLetchie have laid out our policies on road tolls and parking charges. As a fellow of the Institute of the Motor Industry, I would point out that the adoption of an anti-car culture would spell the end of 400,000 jobs in the motor-related industry in the UK and 50,000 jobs in Scotland.

Rather than slam the poor motorist for more revenue, the Executive should bring forward measures to aid the people of rural Scotland who suffer from such high fuel prices and long distances to travel, and for whom the car is a necessity, not a luxury. As someone who has had to suffer the Forth road bridge every day for the past 10 years, I add my plea for a re-examination of the Fife rail routes, to allow those who want to travel by rail to do so.

Business and industry need an infrastructure to allow them to compete on level terms with our major competitors. They are entitled to ask the Scottish Parliament to introduce measures that will

allow them to succeed and to make a profit, to reinvest and to continue to contribute a fair share of the tax burden. Those measures include a low- tax, entrepreneurial environment and a series of measures to encourage start-up. The uniform business rate should be retained, free from the greedy paws of local government. There must be accountability at every level, with minimum bureaucracy. Business support must be integrated at all levels and all the totally unnecessary icons of control, such as petty planning regulations and building controls, must be abolished. Finally, there must be a review of health and safety legislation.

If the Parliament follows a business-friendly agenda, we will be able to instigate the policies that we want, to banish from our society the social evils that we all want to disappear.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4672278+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C704759", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 506.0, "ContributionID": 704759, "EditedText": "I call the Deputy First Minister to conclude this debate for the Executive.", "EditedTextHTML": "I call the Deputy First Minister to conclude this debate for the Executive.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4672278+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C704760", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice (Mr Jim Wallace): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 509.0, "ContributionID": 704760, "EditedText": "I am delighted to have the opportunity to wind up this debate and to congratulate all members who have taken part in it. It has been a good, constructive debate. Specifically, I wish to congratulate Mr Duncan McNeil on the birth of his first granddaughter. This is an occasion. It is the first opportunity for a new Parliament to discuss the legislative programme of the first Executive. It gives us a chance to move on from the discussions about how the Parliament will be set up and operate to the substance of government. Like Mr Swinney, I welcome the fact that there will be cross-party agreement on a number of the measures that were announced today—probably not always on the detail, although the opportunity for consultation will allow us to thrash out and discuss some of that detail. As the First Minister said when he answered questions, the financial bill will have as its basis the bones of the financial issues advisory group report to the consultative steering group. I cannot accept that the legislative programme is light in any way, as many of the bills will be substantial. Mr Salmond said how much he welcomed—and I welcome his welcome—the long-overdue abolition of the feudal system, which the Westminster Parliament failed to abolish for 300 years. It is fair to point out that the English Parliament took the first step towards abolishing the feudal system in 1290—with the statute Quia Emptores—and effectively got rid of it in 1660. The old Scottish Parliament did not address the issue, and it is a tribute to this Parliament that one of its first pieces of legislation will be to get on with the job of doing what our colleagues south of the border achieved some 700 years ago. Land reform legislation, which will bring benefits to people living and working in rural communities, has also been generally welcomed in the chamber. As I think the First Minister said in his statement, the legislation will also deal with access. I acknowledge Roseanna Cunningham's comments about land use and management; it is clear from other speeches that those will continue to be issues. I hope so, because there are also non-legislative ways in which to address these issues. We will also be able to make good use of the committees to highlight and to tackle such issues. There will be legislation to protect the rights and interests of incapable adults, which will benefit 100,000 people; I am pleased that many members have welcomed that. There will be legislation to address Scotland's transport problems, such as pollution and congestion. However, our number one priority is legislation on education. Mr Monteith bemoaned the fact that the education bill was last on the list, but he overlooked the theological point that the first shall be last and the last shall be first. I endorse what Mr Swinney said about my colleague Ian Jenkins's speech, which indicated the importance of valuing teachers. Mr Salmond was somewhat selective when he quoted Mr Galbraith, because Mr Galbraith also recognises the importance of valuing the commitment and professionalism of teachers. They play a key role in raising our country's educational standards and in ensuring that our young people have the best start in life to have the best opportunities for life.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am delighted to have the opportunity to wind up this debate and to congratulate all members who have taken part in it. It has been a good, constructive debate. Specifically, I wish to congratulate Mr Duncan McNeil on the birth of his first granddaughter.

This is an occasion. It is the first opportunity for a new Parliament to discuss the legislative programme of the first Executive. It gives us a chance to move on from the discussions about how the Parliament will be set up and operate to the substance of government.

Like Mr Swinney, I welcome the fact that there will be cross-party agreement on a number of the measures that were announced today—probably not always on the detail, although the opportunity for consultation will allow us to thrash out and discuss some of that detail. As the First Minister said when he answered questions, the financial bill will have as its basis the bones of the financial issues advisory group report to the consultative steering group.

I cannot accept that the legislative programme is light in any way, as many of the bills will be substantial. Mr Salmond said how much he welcomed—and I welcome his welcome—the long-overdue abolition of the feudal system, which the Westminster Parliament failed to abolish for 300 years. It is fair to point out that the English Parliament took the first step towards abolishing the feudal system in 1290—with the statute Quia Emptores—and effectively got rid of it in 1660. The old Scottish Parliament did not address the issue, and it is a tribute to this Parliament that one of its first pieces of legislation will be to get on with the job of doing what our colleagues south of the border achieved some 700 years ago.

Land reform legislation, which will bring benefits to people living and working in rural communities, has also been generally welcomed in the chamber. As I think the First Minister said in his statement, the legislation will also deal with access. I acknowledge Roseanna Cunningham's comments about land use and management; it is clear from other speeches that those will continue to be issues. I hope so, because there are also non-legislative ways in which to address these issues. We will also be able to make good use of the committees to highlight and to tackle such issues.

There will be legislation to protect the rights and interests of incapable adults, which will benefit 100,000 people; I am pleased that many members have welcomed that. There will be legislation to address Scotland's transport problems, such as pollution and congestion. However, our number one priority is legislation on education. Mr Monteith bemoaned the fact that the education bill was last on the list, but he overlooked the theological point that the first shall be last and the last shall be first.

I endorse what Mr Swinney said about my colleague Ian Jenkins's speech, which indicated the importance of valuing teachers. Mr Salmond was somewhat selective when he quoted Mr Galbraith, because Mr Galbraith also recognises the importance of valuing the commitment and professionalism of teachers. They play a key role in raising our country's educational standards and in ensuring that our young people have the best start in life to have the best opportunities for life.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4672278+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2010E221P512C704763", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Paterson, Gil", "ID": 2010, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Gil Paterson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Gil Paterson (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 515.0, "ContributionID": 704763, "EditedText": "As I am a member for the central belt, what I have to say may carry little weight. The Liberal Democrats have talked a lot about the people in Skye, so I wonder if that party—as part of the coalition—can do something for them. People throughout Scotland feel great disquiet about the treatment of the people in Skye and the impact of the horrendous toll charges that they have to pay. Surely the time has come to do something to make up for the damage that has been done.", "EditedTextHTML": "As I am a member for the central belt, what I have to say may carry little weight. The Liberal Democrats have talked a lot about the people in Skye, so I wonder if that party—as part of the coalition—can do something for them. People throughout Scotland feel great disquiet about the treatment of the people in Skye and the impact of the horrendous toll charges that they have to pay. Surely the time has come to do something to make up for the damage that has been done.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4672278+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1962E35P56C704768", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Job Losses (Dumfries and Galloway)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26620, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 521.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 521.0, "ID": 26620, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mundell, David", "ID": 1962, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Mundell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David Mundell (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 525.0, "ContributionID": 704768, "EditedText": "I would like to say how much I welcome this opportunity to raise with the Scottish Executive— and with the other members who I am pleased to see are staying with us—the concerns of the people of the south-west of Scotland. They are witnessing the battering of their local economy by unprecedented levels of job losses in manufacturing and farming. I also welcome Mr McLeish's letter to me today in which he commits himself to coming to Dumfries at an early opportunity to meet with Dr Murray, Mr Fergusson, Mr Morgan and myself. The letter tacitly recognises that the economic problems of areas such as Dumfries and Galloway have perhaps not always had the attention that they deserve. I believe that the seriousness of the situation in which we find ourselves merits direct Government action. I will argue for Executive involvement in a task force to develop and implement a jobs strategy; for the Executive to back the area's application for European structural funding under the new objective 2—Interruption.", "EditedTextHTML": "I would like to say how much I welcome this opportunity to raise with the Scottish Executive— and with the other members who I am pleased to see are staying with us—the concerns of the people of the south-west of Scotland. They are witnessing the battering of their local economy by unprecedented levels of job losses in manufacturing and farming.

I also welcome Mr McLeish's letter to me today in which he commits himself to coming to Dumfries at an early opportunity to meet with Dr Murray, Mr Fergusson, Mr Morgan and myself. The letter tacitly recognises that the economic problems of areas such as Dumfries and Galloway have perhaps not always had the attention that they deserve.

I believe that the seriousness of the situation in which we find ourselves merits direct Government action. I will argue for Executive involvement in a task force to develop and implement a jobs strategy; for the Executive to back the area's application for European structural funding under the new objective 2—[Interruption.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4672278+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C704764", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 517.0, "ContributionID": 704764, "EditedText": "I am grateful to Mr Paterson for giving me the opportunity to remind him that, under the partnership agreement, toll charges will be frozen for the duration of the contract period. That is a substantial concession that will grow over the years and I am sure that many business people will be pleased to know that the costs are fixed for a considerable time to come. We were asked whether the standards that we will apply to local authorities would also apply to quangos. We are committed to high standards of conduct in all public bodies and we are open to views about whether similar provisions should be made for all public bodies. Many of the concerns that were raised today were not about what is in the legislative programme, but about what is not in it. Members have questioned our ambitions on health, education, drugs, the economy and housing. I agree that those are pressing issues of critical importance to the future of Scotland. They are our priorities, too, and we are taking action to deliver on them. As the First Minister stressed, the programme of legislation is not the end. As he said in the context of local government, we intend to respond rapidly and comprehensively to the proposals of the McIntosh commission. In response to the point that Mr Swinney made in his wind-up speech, that is likely to mean more legislation. We would have laid ourselves open to criticism if we had introduced that legislation before we received and consulted on the McIntosh recommendations. We should not forget that action by this Administration is not restricted to new legislation. We have inherited many wide-ranging powers and significant budgets with which we can make a difference to the lives of the people of Scotland. We have heard many complaints—we would expect to from the SNP—that certain matters are still reserved. It is important to remember that the devolution scheme that we are implementing and progressing in this Parliament was overwhelmingly endorsed by the people of Scotland in a referendum. In the recent elections, the majority of people voted for parties that want to retain the links in the United Kingdom, so we should not make any apologies for the fact that some matters are still reserved to Westminster. I know that Lord James Douglas-Hamilton is specifically interested in speed limits. I can tell him that from today an order will come into effect that will allow local authorities, if they so wish, to set speed limits at 20 mph. That is proper devolution down to our local councils. We have an ambitious programme. In addition to our commitments on raising standards in education, we are committed to the recruitment of 1,000 additional teachers, 5,000 classroom assistants and the guarantee of a nursery place for every three and four-year-old. We are also committed to additional expenditure of £21 million on books and equipment, to the reduction of class sizes and to capital investment of £600 million. Questions have been raised about the economy and Alex Neil raised the issue of jobs. I am pleased, as we all will be—as an Opposition member at Westminster, I will not claim any credit—about the unemployment figures that were announced today. At 5.5 per cent, the unemployment claimant count is at its lowest level since 1977. As a partnership, we are committed to creating 20,000 modern apprenticeships, to getting more out of our science base to create wealth and jobs, and to creating 100,000 new businesses over the next decade. Remarks have been made about rural Scotland. It is not always legislation that is required. As Mr Finnie indicated, while we have been debating today he was out doing something to tackle the costs in the food chain so that the benefits of reducing costs come to our primary producers. That does not require legislation but shows this Executive doing things to help rural Scotland. A number of people have talked about health— Mrs Scanlon made useful comments on the subject. We have had an opportunity to find ways in which to tackle Scotland's distinctive, and sometimes chronic, health problems. As a partnership, we are committed to the promotion of public health. We are committed to a network of healthy living centres, to one-stop clinics and to round-the-clock access to health advice through NHS Direct. In an exchange with Dr Simpson, Mrs Margaret Ewing raised the issue of junior hospital doctors. As an Executive, we have a strong commitment to achieving the 56-hour target as a first step to reducing hours to 48. Ms Deacon, the Minister for Health and Community Care, has written to the junior doctors to invite them to a meeting to discuss further progress on that issue. Tackling poverty and social injustice was a recurring theme in our debate. As the First Minister said this morning, social justice is at the heart of what we all want to achieve. It is a theme that links many other things. Education is at the heart of social justice; an education bill to raise standards will tackle poverty and social exclusion at its source by equipping our children to build successful lives. Our proposals on incapable adults will address a pressing concern of many thousands of people who need care or who provide that care. That is practical social justice. There is more. Through legislative and non- legislative action across Government, we are committed to building strong and stable communities; to promoting social inclusion; to tackling dampness with a healthy homes initiative; to developing a national child care strategy; and to tackling homelessness. Mr Sheridan mentioned the green paper on housing published by the Westminster Administration. He reminded us that the consultation period finished on 31 May and that there had been some robust and interesting contributions to that consultation. We will respond to that in a way that will take forward housing policy in Scotland and reflect the housing needs of our nation. Many members spoke of their concern about the scourge of drugs. I can assure those members that we share that concern. We are committed to taking action to tackle the problem. However, many of the suggestions for tackling drugs do not require legislation. We are, as a partnership, committed to the establishment of a drugs enforcement agency. Along with the Deputy Minister for Justice, Angus Mackay, I have had meetings with the Association of Chief Police Officers (Scotland) to start to work out how we can take the agency forward. We want to create mechanisms within the Executive to ensure that there is an integrated approach across government, allowing us to pursue a far-reaching strategy on drugs. Tackling drugs has a health dimension, an education dimension, a rehabilitation dimension and a crime and law and order dimension. The Government wants to ensure that it approaches the issue on that cross-cutting basis. There is much to be done. We have waited nearly 300 years for this Parliament. It is impossible in the first few weeks and months to get everything done that we want to get done. However, our programme is ambitious—to deliver for Scotland. It will emphasise the key themes of this Administration: social justice; promoting enterprise; and ensuring that we have a sustainable economy. The legislative programme has been laid out as a first step along the road. I commend it to the Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful to Mr Paterson for giving me the opportunity to remind him that, under the partnership agreement, toll charges will be frozen for the duration of the contract period. That is a substantial concession that will grow over the years and I am sure that many business people will be pleased to know that the costs are fixed for a considerable time to come.

We were asked whether the standards that we will apply to local authorities would also apply to quangos. We are committed to high standards of conduct in all public bodies and we are open to views about whether similar provisions should be made for all public bodies.

Many of the concerns that were raised today were not about what is in the legislative programme, but about what is not in it. Members have questioned our ambitions on health, education, drugs, the economy and housing. I agree that those are pressing issues of critical importance to the future of Scotland. They are our priorities, too, and we are taking action to deliver on them.

As the First Minister stressed, the programme of legislation is not the end. As he said in the context of local government, we intend to respond rapidly and comprehensively to the proposals of the McIntosh commission. In response to the point that Mr Swinney made in his wind-up speech, that is likely to mean more legislation. We would have laid ourselves open to criticism if we had introduced that legislation before we received and consulted on the McIntosh recommendations.

We should not forget that action by this Administration is not restricted to new legislation. We have inherited many wide-ranging powers and significant budgets with which we can make a difference to the lives of the people of Scotland. We have heard many complaints—we would expect to from the SNP—that certain matters are still reserved. It is important to remember that the devolution scheme that we are implementing and progressing in this Parliament was overwhelmingly endorsed by the people of Scotland in a referendum. In the recent elections, the majority of people voted for parties that want to retain the links in the United Kingdom, so we should not make any apologies for the fact that some matters are still reserved to Westminster.

I know that Lord James Douglas-Hamilton is specifically interested in speed limits. I can tell him that from today an order will come into effect that will allow local authorities, if they so wish, to set speed limits at 20 mph. That is proper devolution down to our local councils.

We have an ambitious programme. In addition to our commitments on raising standards in education, we are committed to the recruitment of 1,000 additional teachers, 5,000 classroom assistants and the guarantee of a nursery place for every three and four-year-old. We are also committed to additional expenditure of £21 million on books and equipment, to the reduction of class sizes and to capital investment of £600 million.

Questions have been raised about the economy and Alex Neil raised the issue of jobs. I am pleased, as we all will be—as an Opposition member at Westminster, I will not claim any credit—about the unemployment figures that were announced today. At 5.5 per cent, the unemployment claimant count is at its lowest level since 1977. As a partnership, we are committed to creating 20,000 modern apprenticeships, to getting more out of our science base to create

wealth and jobs, and to creating 100,000 new businesses over the next decade.

Remarks have been made about rural Scotland. It is not always legislation that is required. As Mr Finnie indicated, while we have been debating today he was out doing something to tackle the costs in the food chain so that the benefits of reducing costs come to our primary producers. That does not require legislation but shows this Executive doing things to help rural Scotland.

A number of people have talked about health— Mrs Scanlon made useful comments on the subject. We have had an opportunity to find ways in which to tackle Scotland's distinctive, and sometimes chronic, health problems. As a partnership, we are committed to the promotion of public health. We are committed to a network of healthy living centres, to one-stop clinics and to round-the-clock access to health advice through NHS Direct.

In an exchange with Dr Simpson, Mrs Margaret Ewing raised the issue of junior hospital doctors. As an Executive, we have a strong commitment to achieving the 56-hour target as a first step to reducing hours to 48. Ms Deacon, the Minister for Health and Community Care, has written to the junior doctors to invite them to a meeting to discuss further progress on that issue.

Tackling poverty and social injustice was a recurring theme in our debate. As the First Minister said this morning, social justice is at the heart of what we all want to achieve. It is a theme that links many other things. Education is at the heart of social justice; an education bill to raise standards will tackle poverty and social exclusion at its source by equipping our children to build successful lives. Our proposals on incapable adults will address a pressing concern of many thousands of people who need care or who provide that care. That is practical social justice.

There is more. Through legislative and non- legislative action across Government, we are committed to building strong and stable communities; to promoting social inclusion; to tackling dampness with a healthy homes initiative; to developing a national child care strategy; and to tackling homelessness. Mr Sheridan mentioned the green paper on housing published by the Westminster Administration. He reminded us that the consultation period finished on 31 May and that there had been some robust and interesting contributions to that consultation. We will respond to that in a way that will take forward housing policy in Scotland and reflect the housing needs of our nation.

Many members spoke of their concern about the scourge of drugs. I can assure those members that we share that concern. We are committed to taking action to tackle the problem. However, many of the suggestions for tackling drugs do not require legislation. We are, as a partnership, committed to the establishment of a drugs enforcement agency. Along with the Deputy Minister for Justice, Angus Mackay, I have had meetings with the Association of Chief Police Officers (Scotland) to start to work out how we can take the agency forward.

We want to create mechanisms within the Executive to ensure that there is an integrated approach across government, allowing us to pursue a far-reaching strategy on drugs. Tackling drugs has a health dimension, an education dimension, a rehabilitation dimension and a crime and law and order dimension. The Government wants to ensure that it approaches the issue on that cross-cutting basis.

There is much to be done. We have waited nearly 300 years for this Parliament. It is impossible in the first few weeks and months to get everything done that we want to get done. However, our programme is ambitious—to deliver for Scotland. It will emphasise the key themes of this Administration: social justice; promoting enterprise; and ensuring that we have a sustainable economy. The legislative programme has been laid out as a first step along the road. I commend it to the Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4672278+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704766", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Job Losses (Dumfries and Galloway)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26620, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 521.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 521.0, "ID": 26620, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 522.0, "ContributionID": 704766, "EditedText": "Motion debated,", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion debated,

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4672278+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C704784", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Job Losses (Dumfries and Galloway)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26620, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 521.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 521.0, "ID": 26620, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Murray Tosh (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 563.0, "ContributionID": 704784, "EditedText": "On a point of order. I understand that there is provision in the standing orders to extend debates in certain circumstances. It is a pity that two members were unable to participate in this debate and that the comments of the Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning had to be abbreviated. Members are not awfully familiar with many of the niceties of the standing orders, and it might be useful if you, Mr Deputy Presiding Officer, could arrange for an explanation of how we might protract a debate when another 10 minutes might make a difference to be given in a future business bulletin.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. I understand that there is provision in the standing orders to extend debates in certain circumstances. It is a pity that two members were unable to participate in this debate and that the comments of the Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning had to be abbreviated. Members are not awfully familiar with many of the niceties of the standing orders, and it might be useful if you, Mr Deputy Presiding Officer, could arrange for an explanation of how we might protract a debate when another 10 minutes might make a difference to be given in a future business bulletin.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4672278+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2110E214P424C704605", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gibson, Kenneth", "ID": 2110, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenneth Gibson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Gibson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 171.0, "ContributionID": 704605, "EditedText": "Yes, I will accept it.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes, I will accept it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:01:27.8453423+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2110E214P424C704602", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gibson, Kenneth", "ID": 2110, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenneth Gibson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Gibson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 165.0, "ContributionID": 704602, "EditedText": "Will Hugh Henry give any examples?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Hugh Henry give any examples?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:01:27.8453423+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2110E214P424C704618", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gibson, Kenneth", "ID": 2110, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenneth Gibson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Gibson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 199.0, "ContributionID": 704618, "EditedText": "On a point of order, Deputy Presiding Officer. Mr McConnell seemed somewhat shocked that my colleague Mr Neil would not take his intervention. He should remember that, last week, he failed to take interventions from five SNP members—", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order, Deputy Presiding Officer. Mr McConnell seemed somewhat shocked that my colleague Mr Neil would not take his intervention. He should remember that, last week, he failed to take interventions from five SNP members—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:02:32.7857179+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C704721", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fergus Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 421.0, "ContributionID": 704721, "EditedText": "Will Tavish Scott acknowledge that just last week I received a letter from the Labour Government at Westminster stating that it rules out the possibility of a variable VAT rate on fuel? What specific proposals will the Liberal Democrat party put forward to deal with the crisis in the Highlands and Islands—which have the highest fuel duty in Europe, if not the western world—given that, as Tavish Scott has indicated, this Parliament lacks the power to turn the fuel escalator downward?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Tavish Scott acknowledge that just last week I received a letter from the Labour Government at Westminster stating that it rules out the possibility of a variable VAT rate on fuel? What specific proposals will the Liberal Democrat party put forward to deal with the crisis in the Highlands and Islands—which have the highest fuel duty in Europe, if not the western world—given that, as Tavish Scott has indicated, this Parliament lacks the power to turn the fuel escalator downward?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:00:18.3299743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1860E111P160C704665", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Grant, Rhoda", "ID": 1860, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Rhoda Grant", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Rhoda Grant (Highlands and Islands) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 300.0, "ContributionID": 704665, "EditedText": "I welcome the Executive's legislative programme, especially its proposals for public transport. To fight social exclusion, we must improve public transport. That is even more important in rural areas. In the Highlands and Islands, many people are excluded from society because they do not drive and there is little co-ordinated public transport. We need an integrated public transport system. That will mean involving all providers in a partnership: local authorities, CalMac, P & 0, Highlands and Islands Airports Ltd, ScotRail, other organisations that provide transport services, such as Royal Mail, and private providers. Such organisations need a forum in which they can work together to co-ordinate timetabling. I welcome the proposal for a Scottish national public transport timetable, which would allow people and organisations to plan their journeys. That would be especially useful in rural areas and would involve looking at strategic issues such as whether funding is being put to the best use and what the new priorities are. The Highlands and Islands integrated transport forum was a good starting point. There have already been many new initiatives, such as community buses, subsidised taxis and social car schemes. The rural transport fund will allow more services to be developed in rural areas. All this is a far cry from the days when I walked miles along a track to primary school and travelled to church by boat. We need to go further; we must examine ways of devolving funding to organisations that can make strategic plans for rural areas. Perhaps we should consider a transport authority that can administer the rural transport fund. Whatever decisions we take must involve people who live and work in rural areas. I look forward to the local transport strategies, which will enable local authorities to set out local priorities. We must devolve power to rural communities to make the decisions that best suit their needs. Question, That the meeting be now adjourned until 2.30 pm today, put and agreed to.—Lord James Douglas-Hamilton.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the Executive's legislative programme, especially its proposals for public transport. To fight social exclusion, we must improve public transport. That is even more important in rural areas. In the Highlands and Islands, many people are excluded from society because they do not drive and there is little co-ordinated public transport.

We need an integrated public transport system. That will mean involving all providers in a partnership: local authorities, CalMac, P & 0, Highlands and Islands Airports Ltd, ScotRail, other organisations that provide transport services, such as Royal Mail, and private providers. Such organisations need a forum in which they can work together to co-ordinate timetabling.

I welcome the proposal for a Scottish national public transport timetable, which would allow people and organisations to plan their journeys. That would be especially useful in rural areas and would involve looking at strategic issues such as whether funding is being put to the best use and what the new priorities are.

The Highlands and Islands integrated transport forum was a good starting point. There have already been many new initiatives, such as community buses, subsidised taxis and social car schemes. The rural transport fund will allow more services to be developed in rural areas.

All this is a far cry from the days when I walked miles along a track to primary school and travelled to church by boat. We need to go further; we must examine ways of devolving funding to organisations that can make strategic plans for rural areas. Perhaps we should consider a transport authority that can administer the rural transport fund.

Whatever decisions we take must involve people who live and work in rural areas. I look forward to the local transport strategies, which will enable local authorities to set out local priorities. We must devolve power to rural communities to make the decisions that best suit their needs.

Question, That the meeting be now adjourned until 2.30 pm today, put and agreed to.—[Lord James Douglas-Hamilton.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:00:21.9656621+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C704549", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 52.0, "ContributionID": 704549, "EditedText": "My question relates to the answer that the First Minister has just given. This morning, I heard on the radio that there will be an innovative consultation process prior to the publication of the education bill. The First Minister has stated that the Minister for Children and Education, Mr Sam Galbraith, will give details of the bill before we rise. Will the First Minister provide any general or specific details about the consultation process?", "EditedTextHTML": "My question relates to the answer that the First Minister has just given. This morning, I heard on the radio that there will be an innovative consultation process prior to the publication of the education bill. The First Minister has stated that the Minister for Children and Education, Mr Sam Galbraith, will give details of the bill before we rise. Will the First Minister provide any general or specific details about the consultation process?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:00:06.050334+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C704598", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 156.0, "ContributionID": 704598, "EditedText": "Will Ms Curran go through the legislative programme, in a way that the First Minister failed to do, and highlight the items of proposed legislation that will tackle the problems of poverty and social exclusion in Scotland?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Ms Curran go through the legislative programme, in a way that the First Minister failed to do, and highlight the items of proposed legislation that will tackle the problems of poverty and social exclusion in Scotland?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:00:06.050334+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704525", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Wednesday 16 June 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26617, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26617, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 2.0, "ContributionID": 704525, "EditedText": "THE PRESIDING OFFICER opened the meeting at 09:30", "EditedTextHTML": "[THE PRESIDING OFFICER opened the meeting at 09:30]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C704540", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 34.0, "ContributionID": 704540, "EditedText": "Which of the eight bills would not have been presented by a Labour Government were it not for the negotiations with the Liberal Democrats in the partnership agreement? In other words, which of the eight bills did the Liberal Democrats exact in their vigorous negotiations with Labour?", "EditedTextHTML": "Which of the eight bills would not have been presented by a Labour Government were it not for the negotiations with the Liberal Democrats in the partnership agreement? In other words, which of the eight bills did the Liberal Democrats exact in their vigorous negotiations with Labour?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C704544", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan (Glasgow) (SSP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 42.0, "ContributionID": 704544, "EditedText": "I am pleased that Mr McAllion raised the issue of the number of bills because I too counted seven. I am not sure whether Mr Dewar's response included an additional bill: I counted two land bills, a local government bill, an incapable adults bill, a transport bill, a financial procedures bill and an education bill. One of the two land bills will deal with national parks. Will he explain again, for the benefit of humble souls like me, the number of bills? In relation to the bills that I am clear about, does the First Minister agree that those bills have to set specific targets in relation to the priority concerns of the Parliament? Whether it is included in the local government bill or in the finance bill, I hope that he will include targets on poverty, and I ask him to respond to this point. Mr Dewar said that one in four families in Scotland live in homes that are, frankly, uninhabitable in many respects, and that one in three families or households live on less than half the average annual income in Scotland. As he will be aware, in Glasgow alone 38 per cent of the kids were in receipt of free school meals in 1997; by 1999, that figure had risen to 43 per cent. MEMBERS: \"Ask a question.\" What is the specific target on tackling poverty in cities throughout Scotland? As a Glasgow member, I will raise the situation in Glasgow. Will specific targets be set within an agreed time scale to raise the standard of living of the citizens of Scotland? My second point on poverty is that there was no mention of pensioners in the bills that Mr Dewar set out. As he will be aware, over a quarter of our pensioners live in poverty. Will specific targets be set to raise the standard of living for our pensioners? Finally, on the local government bill, does the First Minister agree that council tax is an extremely regressive form of taxation, as it imposes a greater burden on poor people than on those who are wealthy? Does he agree that consideration of a more progressive local income tax should be part of the local government bill that his Administration hopes to introduce?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am pleased that Mr McAllion raised the issue of the number of bills because I too counted seven. I am not sure whether Mr Dewar's response included an additional bill: I counted two land bills, a local government bill, an incapable adults bill, a transport bill, a financial procedures bill and an education bill. One of the two land bills will deal with national parks. Will he explain again, for the benefit of humble souls like me, the number of bills?

In relation to the bills that I am clear about, does the First Minister agree that those bills have to set specific targets in relation to the priority concerns of the Parliament? Whether it is included in the local government bill or in the finance bill, I hope that he will include targets on poverty, and I ask him to respond to this point.

Mr Dewar said that one in four families in Scotland live in homes that are, frankly, uninhabitable in many respects, and that one in three families or households live on less than half the average annual income in Scotland. As he will be aware, in Glasgow alone 38 per cent of the kids were in receipt of free school meals in 1997; by 1999, that figure had risen to 43 per cent. [MEMBERS: \"Ask a question.\"] What is the specific target on tackling poverty in cities throughout Scotland? As a Glasgow member, I will raise the situation in Glasgow. Will specific targets be set within an agreed time scale to raise the standard of living of the citizens of Scotland?

My second point on poverty is that there was no mention of pensioners in the bills that Mr Dewar set out. As he will be aware, over a quarter of our pensioners live in poverty. Will specific targets be set to raise the standard of living for our pensioners?

Finally, on the local government bill, does the First Minister agree that council tax is an extremely regressive form of taxation, as it imposes a greater burden on poor people than on those who are wealthy? Does he agree that consideration of a more progressive local income tax should be part of the local government bill that his Administration hopes to introduce?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2056E57P84C704551", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James", "ID": 2056, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "James Douglas-Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Lord James Douglas-Hamilton (Lothians) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 56.0, "ContributionID": 704551, "EditedText": "On the subject of the transport bill, can this Parliament competently express a view, either through legislation or through recommendation, on the call for the compulsory introduction of 20 mph speed limits outside schools in the interests of road safety and to reduce greatly the number of child casualties? What is the First Minister's view on that particular road safety proposal?", "EditedTextHTML": "On the subject of the transport bill, can this Parliament competently express a view, either through legislation or through recommendation, on the call for the compulsory introduction of 20 mph speed limits outside schools in the interests of road safety and to reduce greatly the number of child casualties? What is the First Minister's view on that particular road safety proposal?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C704556", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bruce Crawford (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 66.0, "ContributionID": 704556, "EditedText": "On a point of order. MEMBERS: \"We cannot hear.\" I had better put my card in. That is a good start for a chief whip. At lunchtime we will all be going away and may push our buttons, which will knock our names off the list of those who wish to speak. Do people who want to speak this afternoon have to press their buttons this morning to request to speak in the afternoon?", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. [MEMBERS: \"We cannot hear.\"] I had better put my card in. That is a good start for a chief whip. At lunchtime we will all be going away and may push our buttons, which will knock our names off the list of those who wish to speak. Do people who want to speak this afternoon have to press their buttons this morning to request to speak in the afternoon?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C704571", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 97.0, "ContributionID": 704571, "EditedText": "Medical advice on those matters is well known and has been well discussed. We retain that position even if other people have had a remarkable change in view over the past few weeks. We will, I hope, debate this issue at some length in the immediate future. I want to address the issues that I feel should have been discussed in this ministerial statement. A few seconds ago, I read the quotations from the Liberal Democrat manifesto. There were quotations by members of the Labour party during the election campaign on the privatisation of key public services. I believe that the Scots Parliament, after argument and debate, could reach some consensus as to whether the private finance initiative was the best method of investing in public services in Scotland, or whether, as the evidence overwhelmingly indicates, it posed severe dangers in terms of cost, ownership control and the reversion of public assets to the private sector. I would have liked investment in public services against the privatisation of public services to have been included in this legislative programme. Mr Alex Neil asked the First Minister about jobs and investment. The First Minister replied that the Government's expenditure programme was the area where jobs and investment would be secured. As I have pointed out, during the election campaign it was shown that the claimed increases in Government expenditure in Scotland were mythical. The First Minister indicated disagreement.", "EditedTextHTML": "Medical advice on those matters is well known and has been well discussed. We retain that position even if other people have had a remarkable change in view over the past few weeks. We will, I hope, debate this issue at some length in the immediate future.

I want to address the issues that I feel should have been discussed in this ministerial statement. A few seconds ago, I read the quotations from the Liberal Democrat manifesto. There were quotations by members of the Labour party during the election campaign on the privatisation of key public services. I believe that the Scots Parliament, after argument and debate, could reach some consensus as to whether the private finance initiative was the best method of investing in public services in Scotland, or whether, as the evidence overwhelmingly indicates, it posed severe dangers in terms of cost, ownership control and the reversion of public assets to the private sector. I would have liked investment in public services against the privatisation of public services to have been included in this legislative programme.

Mr Alex Neil asked the First Minister about jobs and investment. The First Minister replied that the Government's expenditure programme was the area where jobs and investment would be secured. As I have pointed out, during the election campaign it was shown that the claimed increases in Government expenditure in Scotland were mythical.

The First Minister indicated disagreement.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C704561", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 77.0, "ContributionID": 704561, "EditedText": "Mr Salmond is getting in front of himself. He knows that we will see the McIntosh report on 22 June. He knows that there will be a debate on that before we rise and he knows that there must be consultation on it over the summer. We all know that that report will contain very important recommendations that I do not want to anticipate. We all know from the consultation document that it will look in particular at internal structures, the committee system and its survival or otherwise, and at electoral systems. For me to announce a bill on electoral reform today, without having seen the McIntosh report and without any consultation on it, would provide a proper foundation for a charge of overburdening arrogance.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Salmond is getting in front of himself. He knows that we will see the McIntosh report on 22 June. He knows that there will be a debate on that before we rise and he knows that there must be consultation on it over the summer. We all know that that report will contain very important recommendations that I do not want to anticipate. We all know from the consultation document that it will look in particular at internal structures, the committee system and

its survival or otherwise, and at electoral systems. For me to announce a bill on electoral reform today, without having seen the McIntosh report and without any consultation on it, would provide a proper foundation for a charge of overburdening arrogance.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C704562", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 79.0, "ContributionID": 704562, "EditedText": "The First Minister could have indicated that the recommendations of the McIntosh commission would be taken into account in the local government bill, instead of saying only that there would be a code of conduct for councillors—the Labour party has tried that before, but any reasonable assessment would conclude that it had not solved the underlying problem. If the First Minister is now saying that the local government bill may well take into account the McIntosh recommendations, that would mean that there would be a second bill. If that is the case, it seems that the counting of the land legislation as three bills is going to be repeated for local government. I am concerned also about the education aspects of the proposed legislative programme. People do not object to raising standards in education—no reasonable person could—but merely setting an obligation on local authorities to raise standards does not meet the task in hand. Many of us feel that the change in direction that is needed in Scottish education is a substantial move away from the consistent vilification of the teaching profession that has happened under education ministers in Scotland over the past 10 years. The First Minister indicated disagreement.", "EditedTextHTML": "The First Minister could have indicated that the recommendations of the McIntosh commission would be taken into account in the local government bill, instead of saying only that there would be a code of conduct for councillors—the Labour party has tried that before, but any reasonable assessment would conclude that it had not solved the underlying problem. If the First Minister is now saying that the local government bill may well take into account the McIntosh recommendations, that would mean that there would be a second bill. If that is the case, it seems that the counting of the land legislation as three bills is going to be repeated for local government.

I am concerned also about the education aspects of the proposed legislative programme. People do not object to raising standards in education—no reasonable person could—but merely setting an obligation on local authorities to raise standards does not meet the task in hand. Many of us feel that the change in direction that is needed in Scottish education is a substantial move away from the consistent vilification of the teaching profession that has happened under education ministers in Scotland over the past 10 years.

The First Minister indicated disagreement.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C704563", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 81.0, "ContributionID": 704563, "EditedText": "I hoped that the departure of Helen Liddell from the post of education minister would herald a new era in the relationship between the Scottish Administration and the teaching profession, so I was concerned to read on 28 May that Mr Galbraith said that teachers must not be allowed to \"wreck the project\" of schools reform. Why should it be assumed that the teaching profession in Scotland would want to wreck the reform of Scottish education? The task for a new education minister is surely to motivate, mobilise and inspire the teaching profession, taking it with him in pursuit of his objectives, rather than to belittle and demobilise the profession, as took place first under Michael Forsyth, was abandoned for a time under James Douglas-Hamilton and resumed under the tenure of Helen Liddell. I think that teachers in Scotland want to feel that they are part of the process and are regarded as one of the great assets of Scottish education, rather than as one of its liabilities, as this Administration has done, thereby continuing the work of the Conservative party. Lastly, I want to turn to what I feel is the lack of ambition in the First Minister's proposals. I find myself in the interesting position of being a more solid defender of some aspects of the Liberal Democrat party's manifesto than some Liberal Democrat members. I have brought along a comparison of the Liberal Democrat party's position on various issues in its manifesto with what was said in the partnership document. On tuition fees, the Liberal Democrat manifesto said clearly that it would \"Abolish tuition fees for all Scottish students at UK universities.\" The partnership document said:\"The Liberal Democrat members of the Executive will play a full part in collective discussion of its response to the Committee of Inquiry.\" On tax powers, the manifesto said that the party would, \"If necessary, use 1 penny of the permitted tax varying powers in the spring 2000 budget\". The partnership document said:\"We will not use the tax-varying power in the course of the first Parliament.\" The Deputy First Minister must have done a very rapid examination of the Scottish Office accounts. On privatisation, the manifesto said: \"We will seek to invest in capital projects for better hospitals, school, and house building programmes; water supply infrastructure, and public transport schemes by seeking to establish Community Partnership Trusts to replace the expensive and inefficient Private Finance Initiative agreements.\" The partnership document said:\"We will . . . seek opportunities for new types of partnership and flexible contracts which will allow assets, when appropriate, to revert to public ownership.\" On Skye bridge tolls, the manifesto said that the Liberal Democrats would \"Abolish the tolls on the Skye Bridge.\"The partnership document said:\"In the meantime we have decided to freeze tolls at their current levels in cash terms\". On the beef-on-the-bone ban, the manifesto said that the Liberal Democrats would \"End the ban on beef-on-the-bone.\"The partnership document said:\"We look forward to ending the beef-on-the-bone ban as soon as medical advice indicated that it would be safe to do so.\"", "EditedTextHTML": "I hoped that the departure of Helen Liddell from the post of education minister would herald a new era in the relationship between the Scottish Administration and the teaching profession, so I was concerned to read on 28 May that Mr Galbraith said that teachers must not be allowed to \"wreck the project\" of schools reform.

Why should it be assumed that the teaching profession in Scotland would want to wreck the reform of Scottish education? The task for a new education minister is surely to motivate, mobilise and inspire the teaching profession, taking it with him in pursuit of his objectives, rather than to belittle and demobilise the profession, as took place first under Michael Forsyth, was abandoned for a time under James Douglas-Hamilton and resumed under the tenure of Helen Liddell. I think that teachers in Scotland want to feel that they are part of the process and are regarded as one of the great assets of Scottish education, rather than as one of its liabilities, as this Administration has done, thereby continuing the work of the Conservative party.

Lastly, I want to turn to what I feel is the lack of ambition in the First Minister's proposals. I find myself in the interesting position of being a more solid defender of some aspects of the Liberal Democrat party's manifesto than some Liberal Democrat members.

I have brought along a comparison of the Liberal Democrat party's position on various issues in its manifesto with what was said in the partnership document. On tuition fees, the Liberal Democrat manifesto said clearly that it would

\"Abolish tuition fees for all Scottish students at UK universities.\"

The partnership document said:

\"The Liberal Democrat members of the Executive will play a full part in collective discussion of its response to the Committee of Inquiry.\"

On tax powers, the manifesto said that the party would,

\"If necessary, use 1 penny of the permitted tax varying powers in the spring 2000 budget\".

The partnership document said:

\"We will not use the tax-varying power in the course of the first Parliament.\"

The Deputy First Minister must have done a very rapid examination of the Scottish Office accounts. On privatisation, the manifesto said:

\"We will seek to invest in capital projects for better hospitals, school, and house building programmes; water supply infrastructure, and public transport schemes by seeking to establish Community Partnership Trusts to replace the expensive and inefficient Private Finance Initiative agreements.\"

The partnership document said:

\"We will . . . seek opportunities for new types of partnership and flexible contracts which will allow assets, when appropriate, to revert to public ownership.\"

On Skye bridge tolls, the manifesto said that the Liberal Democrats would

\"Abolish the tolls on the Skye Bridge.\"

The partnership document said:

\"In the meantime we have decided to freeze tolls at their current levels in cash terms\".

On the beef-on-the-bone ban, the manifesto said that the Liberal Democrats would

\"End the ban on beef-on-the-bone.\"

The partnership document said:

\"We look forward to ending the beef-on-the-bone ban as soon as medical advice indicated that it would be safe to do so.\"

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C704565", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 85.0, "ContributionID": 704565, "EditedText": "I was in the chamber when Charles Kennedy, the putative leader of the Liberal Democrats, introduced the subject of beef on the bone in the Westminster Parliament. His argument was that the medical advice, as it currently exists, justified the lifting of the beef-onthe- bone ban.", "EditedTextHTML": "I was in the chamber when Charles Kennedy, the putative leader of the Liberal Democrats, introduced the subject of beef

on the bone in the Westminster Parliament. His argument was that the medical advice, as it currently exists, justified the lifting of the beef-onthe- bone ban.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C704566", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Children and Education", "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Galbraith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 87.0, "ContributionID": 704566, "EditedText": "Nonsense.", "EditedTextHTML": "Nonsense.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C704567", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 89.0, "ContributionID": 704567, "EditedText": "That was Mr Kennedy's argument in the Westminster Parliament and the Liberal Democrats' argument in the election campaign. There has been a dumbing down of Liberal Democrat policies and, therefore, a lack of ambition has been exposed even between the variety of attitudes among the coalition partners.", "EditedTextHTML": "That was Mr Kennedy's argument in the Westminster Parliament and the Liberal Democrats' argument in the election campaign. There has been a dumbing down of Liberal Democrat policies and, therefore, a lack of ambition has been exposed even between the variety of attitudes among the coalition partners.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C704568", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Richard Simpson (Ochil) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 91.0, "ContributionID": 704568, "EditedText": "To make it clear, is Mr Salmond suggesting that this chamber should lift the ban on beef on the bone immediately against the clear statement from the chief medical officer for Scotland? I want it to go on the record that that is Mr Salmond's position.", "EditedTextHTML": "To make it clear, is Mr Salmond suggesting that this chamber should lift the ban on beef on the bone immediately against the clear statement from the chief medical officer for Scotland? I want it to go on the record that that is Mr Salmond's position.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C704573", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie (Lothians) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 102.0, "ContributionID": 704573, "EditedText": "I welcome this opportunity to debate the Scottish Executive's legislative proposals for this first session. Like Mr Salmond, I thank the First Minister—who will return to the chamber shortly—for supplying a copy of his statement in advance. It is a courtesy that I trust he will not regret at the end of my remarks. As I stated last week in the debate on the consultative steering group report, the Scottish Conservatives intend to provide a principled Opposition in this Parliament. We will support proposals from the Scottish Executive that are in line with our own principles and policies and vigorously oppose those that are not. I was happy to agree with the First Minister last week that, in certain devolved areas such as food standards, legislation should continue to be enacted on a United Kingdom basis when there is a need for common standards in order to sustain our single UK market—subject to the important proviso that this Parliament should have the opportunity to debate and approve such legislation. We are a unionist party, and we will always support policies that strengthen our partnership with the rest of the UK. Today, the First Minister spoke of the Executive's priorities for Scotland. I note that he launched off with land reform as his flagship. Frankly, I doubt his priorities will impress the rural communities he claims to value so much—I find it strange that, when our farmers are facing their worst crisis ever, available time, resources and energy are to be spent not on alleviating that crisis, but on land reform measures that I fear could damage our already fragile rural economy and discourage investment in Scotland. In much the same vein, I have reservations about the proposals for national parks. We had a very useful debate last week on Dr Jackson's motion on the proposals for Loch Lomond and the Trossachs. Members who were present will have noted the reservations that were expressed about national parks, the potential difficulties that they may pose to the development of local economies and how they may result in the overloading of areas—as happens in the lake district—which could damage our environment and the needs of conservation, which we all support. This issue needs careful handling, and we must get away from the idea that national parks in themselves are a good thing.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome this opportunity to debate the Scottish Executive's legislative proposals for this first session. Like Mr Salmond, I thank the First Minister—who will return to the chamber shortly—for supplying a copy of his statement in advance. It is a courtesy that I trust he will not regret at the end of my remarks.

As I stated last week in the debate on the consultative steering group report, the Scottish Conservatives intend to provide a principled Opposition in this Parliament. We will support proposals from the Scottish Executive that are in line with our own principles and policies and vigorously oppose those that are not.

I was happy to agree with the First Minister last week that, in certain devolved areas such as food standards, legislation should continue to be enacted on a United Kingdom basis when there is a need for common standards in order to sustain our single UK market—subject to the important proviso that this Parliament should have the opportunity to debate and approve such legislation. We are a unionist party, and we will always support policies that strengthen our partnership with the rest of the UK.

Today, the First Minister spoke of the Executive's priorities for Scotland. I note that he launched off with land reform as his flagship. Frankly, I doubt his priorities will impress the rural communities he claims to value so much—I find it strange that, when our farmers are facing their worst crisis ever, available time, resources and energy are to be spent not on alleviating that crisis, but on land reform measures that I fear could damage our already fragile rural economy and discourage investment in Scotland.

In much the same vein, I have reservations about the proposals for national parks. We had a very useful debate last week on Dr Jackson's motion on the proposals for Loch Lomond and the Trossachs. Members who were present will have noted the reservations that were expressed about national parks, the potential difficulties that they may pose to the development of local economies and how they may result in the overloading of areas—as happens in the lake district—which could damage our environment and the needs of conservation, which we all support. This issue needs careful handling, and we must get away from the idea that national parks in themselves are a good thing.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C704574", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan (Falkirk West) rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 104.0, "ContributionID": 704574, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C704575", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 106.0, "ContributionID": 704575, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C704585", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 126.0, "ContributionID": 704585, "EditedText": "That may well happen. It is important that the interim period should be used to examine those issues and to shape the legislation. I wanted simply to make the point at the outset that we should not be carried away by the idea that it is necessarily a good thing that the tag of national park should be applied to a particular area of the country. All parties have much to contribute to this debate, and we should not get hung up on particular tags. Like the First Minister, whom I welcome back to the chamber, we want a flourishing enterprise economy in Scotland; indeed, we invented the concept when the Labour party was back in the stone age. Unfortunately, the Labour party has no idea about how to create such an economy, as the transport bill outlined in the Executive's programme amply demonstrates. An enterprise economy requires low taxation. That is why we are totally opposed to enabling the introduction of city- entry taxes, road tolls and parking taxes. During the election campaign, we warned that Labour intended to penalise the family motorist and hurt the competitiveness of our businesses, heaping tolls and taxes on the fuel taxes and excise duties that have been the feature of Gordon Brown's three budgets to date, and of which there are undoubtedly more to come. We have been proved right. The Labour party wants roads for the rich. We want roads for the people, whose taxes have already paid for them and who continue to pay for them every time they go to the petrol pump to fill up their car or go to the post office to renew their tax disc.", "EditedTextHTML": "That may well happen. It is important that the interim period should be used to examine those issues and to shape the legislation. I wanted simply to make the point at the outset that we should not be carried away by the idea that it is necessarily a good thing that the tag of national park should be applied to a particular area of the country. All parties have much to contribute to this debate, and we should not get hung up on particular tags.

Like the First Minister, whom I welcome back to the chamber, we want a flourishing enterprise economy in Scotland; indeed, we invented the concept when the Labour party was back in the stone age. Unfortunately, the Labour party has no idea about how to create such an economy, as the transport bill outlined in the Executive's programme amply demonstrates. An enterprise economy requires low taxation. That is why we are totally opposed to enabling the introduction of city- entry taxes, road tolls and parking taxes. During the election campaign, we warned that Labour intended to penalise the family motorist and hurt the competitiveness of our businesses, heaping tolls and taxes on the fuel taxes and excise duties that have been the feature of Gordon Brown's three budgets to date, and of which there are undoubtedly more to come.

We have been proved right. The Labour party wants roads for the rich. We want roads for the people, whose taxes have already paid for them and who continue to pay for them every time they go to the petrol pump to fill up their car or go to the post office to renew their tax disc.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C704589", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 134.0, "ContributionID": 704589, "EditedText": "I am grateful for that clarification. I conclude by saying that, as a party with policies based on principles, we will advocate policies that we believe to be right—unlike, I fear, the Executive, which bases its policies on the findings of focus groups' or its junior partners for whom principles are bargaining chips to be traded for a place at the top table. Without any basis in principle, politics is nothing more than the pursuit of self-interest. It is that rather than distaste for so- called confrontation that turns so many people off the political process. As I have said, there are some measures in the legislative programme that we can support. I am afraid to say, however, that the main elements of the programme are a hotch-potch of perverse priorities and grovelling apologies for Labour's failure in local government. One serious aspect of the proposals is that they contain the first of many statements that will lead to raising the tax burden on Scots under this Administration. We will fight that tooth and nail.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful for that clarification.

I conclude by saying that, as a party with policies based on principles, we will advocate policies that we believe to be right—unlike, I fear, the Executive, which bases its policies on the findings of focus groups' or its junior partners for whom principles are bargaining chips to be traded for a place at the top table. Without any basis in principle, politics is nothing more than the pursuit of self-interest. It is that rather than distaste for so- called confrontation that turns so many people off the political process.

As I have said, there are some measures in the legislative programme that we can support. I am afraid to say, however, that the main elements of the programme are a hotch-potch of perverse priorities and grovelling apologies for Labour's failure in local government. One serious aspect of the proposals is that they contain the first of many statements that will lead to raising the tax burden on Scots under this Administration. We will fight that tooth and nail.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1854E38P164C704590", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Godman, Trish", "ID": 1854, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Renfrewshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Trish Godman", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Trish Godman (West Renfrewshire) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 137.0, "ContributionID": 704590, "EditedText": "I can speak only for myself, but I feel that today we are for the first time getting down to real parliamentary debate, and I welcome that. The First Minister has outlined a heavy but comprehensive programme. I would like to debate many of the issues—education, land reform—but, apart from the fact that I do not want to bore members to tears, I do not have time to do that. Donald talked about a healthier nation and safer communities. We cannot have those if we do not address drug misuse. The solutions to that problem impinge on all Government departments. We do not need yet another report informing us about the amounts of cocaine, heroin and crack that are on the streets—we know. Such reports are excellent when we are considering the provision of services; what we need now is a programme of practical change. We must develop a range of services that will provide the links between those who need the services, those who provide the services, and us, the legislators, where necessary. We need joined-up drug policies in central and local government. We have everything to gain and nothing to lose if that work is carried out jointly and effectively. Those of us who have worked in the field of drug misuse can sense the hopelessness in communities that are ravaged by drugs. It is palpable. We must do something to change the climate of hopelessness. Above all, our programme of practical change should have a listening brief. We have talked a lot about listening to civic Scotland. We must listen to the professionals; we must listen to drug users, their families and their friends; we must listen to the police and everybody else who is involved with drug users. I hope that this Parliament will, at some point, consider an all-party committee on drug misuse. That would be important. We must examine drugs education provision in schools closely. Drug education should be based on what works, and that has not been properly assessed. We must monitor and assess provision—and we must do so sooner rather than later. While the misuse of drugs touches all communities, it is definitely more widespread in areas of high unemployment and poor housing, where there is a lack of opportunity for young people and those who are in poor health—in other words, people who are socially excluded. We must include them in, not out. The programme of change must therefore be part of our social inclusion agenda. We must find a way to strip drug dealers of their assets and put that money into drug education, the prevention of misuse and rehabilitation in the areas where they were dealing. We must let the people see that the dealer is off the street and that they are getting something in their community. If that means passing legislation in this Parliament, we must address that fact seriously. I began by saying that I am pleased that we are now getting down to proper parliamentary business. I am sure that each and every one of us was asked at some point during the election campaign, \"What is the Scottish Parliament going to do about drugs?\" and that members answered more or less as I did— \"I will do all in my power to resolve this problem.\" If, four years down the road, we go out again to fight an election and another headline describes a six-year-old boy saying to a teacher, \"Take this piece of heroin, it is killing my mother,\" that will be an indictment not only of society but of each and every one of us here. We have the power to fund properly and appropriately, and to legislate where necessary. We must use that power responsibly, when considering all the proposals that are being put forward this morning, to rid Scotland of the scourge of drugs.", "EditedTextHTML": "I can speak only for myself, but I feel that today we are for the first time getting down to real parliamentary debate, and I welcome that. The First Minister has outlined a heavy but comprehensive programme. I would like to debate many of the issues—education, land reform—but, apart from the fact that I do not want to bore members to tears, I do not have time to do that.

Donald talked about a healthier nation and safer communities. We cannot have those if we do not address drug misuse. The solutions to that problem impinge on all Government departments. We do not need yet another report informing us about the amounts of cocaine, heroin and crack that are on the streets—we know. Such reports are excellent when we are considering the provision of services; what we need now is a programme of practical change. We must develop a range of services that will provide the links between those who need the services, those who provide the services, and us, the legislators, where necessary. We need joined-up drug policies in central and local government. We have everything to gain and nothing to lose if that work is carried out jointly and effectively.

Those of us who have worked in the field of drug misuse can sense the hopelessness in communities that are ravaged by drugs. It is palpable. We must do something to change the climate of hopelessness. Above all, our programme of practical change should have a listening brief. We have talked a lot about listening to civic Scotland. We must listen to the professionals; we must listen to drug users, their families and their friends; we must listen to the

police and everybody else who is involved with drug users. I hope that this Parliament will, at some point, consider an all-party committee on drug misuse. That would be important.

We must examine drugs education provision in schools closely. Drug education should be based on what works, and that has not been properly assessed. We must monitor and assess provision—and we must do so sooner rather than later.

While the misuse of drugs touches all communities, it is definitely more widespread in areas of high unemployment and poor housing, where there is a lack of opportunity for young people and those who are in poor health—in other words, people who are socially excluded. We must include them in, not out. The programme of change must therefore be part of our social inclusion agenda. We must find a way to strip drug dealers of their assets and put that money into drug education, the prevention of misuse and rehabilitation in the areas where they were dealing. We must let the people see that the dealer is off the street and that they are getting something in their community. If that means passing legislation in this Parliament, we must address that fact seriously.

I began by saying that I am pleased that we are now getting down to proper parliamentary business. I am sure that each and every one of us was asked at some point during the election campaign, \"What is the Scottish Parliament going to do about drugs?\" and that members answered more or less as I did— \"I will do all in my power to resolve this problem.\" If, four years down the road, we go out again to fight an election and another headline describes a six-year-old boy saying to a teacher, \"Take this piece of heroin, it is killing my mother,\" that will be an indictment not only of society but of each and every one of us here. We have the power to fund properly and appropriately, and to legislate where necessary. We must use that power responsibly, when considering all the proposals that are being put forward this morning, to rid Scotland of the scourge of drugs.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C704594", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Brian Monteith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 148.0, "ContributionID": 704594, "EditedText": "Will Ms Curran address Mr McAllion's remark that people should shut up?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Ms Curran address Mr McAllion's remark that people should shut up?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1820E139P227C704599", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Curran, Margaret", "ID": 1820, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Baillieston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Curran", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Curran: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 158.0, "ContributionID": 704599, "EditedText": "Nicola should bear with me; the problem with all these interventions is that members sometimes cannot follow the logic of a speech. I made it clear that we do not need a raft of legislation, and I will go on to talk about the committees. We need to consider the Government's overall strategy. This is the first time that I have spoken in this debate and I am here to speak on those issues; that is what I will do. The Tory years, thankfully, have gone. During those years, there was no such thing as society and if a family faced problems, the Government's response was, \"On your bike.\" Poverty, drugs and crime spread relentlessly, with little or no constructive intervention by the Government. We must be clear, as we attempt to deal with such problems in this Parliament, that progress will not be easy. Our job is to ensure that we put some meaning behind the buzz words. Within the committee structure, as has already been suggested, we need to consider measurements and targets across a range of services. We need to be proactive rather than reactive. We need to ensure that economic stability is linked to programmes of social advancement. The challenge of the 21st century is to ensure that everyone who can contributes to, and shares in, economic progress. We must recognise that ability, enterprise and energy are not respecters of class and geography; everyone, irrespective of background, gender, race, disability or sexuality, should have the means to contribute and to realise their potential. Exclusion is at its most absolute when people's lives and those of their children are governed by abuse, fear and terror. John Orr, the chief constable of Strathclyde police, found in research that a woman is hit 35 times before she makes her first report to the police. If there is one thing that the Parliament can do—and I hope very much that it will, despite the misogyny that we have seen recently—it is to put funding for women's aid on a secure and appropriate footing. We must intervene at the earliest possible stage to alter the life chances of children and young people. To Mr Hamilton in particular, I say that members of Mothers Against Drugs, in my constituency, may not have the slickest of university debating skills, but they speak with a passion and a precision about drugs that anyone can understand. We must liberate the communities that are trapped in a vicious circle of despair and crime. Nicola Sturgeon should note that programmes that the Executive will deliver, such as new community schools, early intervention schemes, expanded child care provision, family centres and alternatives to exclusion are the key steps in rebuilding and regenerating our communities. I particularly welcome the signal that was given by the Executive in creating a Minister for Communities. Too often, communities such as Easterhouse are seen as the problem; in my experience, they are the solution. Let us work hand in hand with those communities to bring about change. Through consultation and dialogue, we can create solutions and legitimise answers— not with the arrogance of the privileged elite in the SNP, but as partners in a new and radical Scotland. Above all, if we have the will, we can create a new form of government. We can listen to the voices of the excluded and focus this Parliament not on immature semantics but on tackling poverty, which, in the words of George Bernard Shaw, is \"the greatest of evils and the worst of crimes\".", "EditedTextHTML": "Nicola should bear with me; the problem with all these interventions is that members sometimes cannot follow the logic of a speech. I made it clear that we do not need a raft of legislation, and I will go on to talk about the committees. We need to consider the Government's overall strategy. This is the first time that I have spoken in this debate and I am here to speak on those issues; that is what I will do.

The Tory years, thankfully, have gone. During those years, there was no such thing as society and if a family faced problems, the Government's response was, \"On your bike.\" Poverty, drugs and crime spread relentlessly, with little or no constructive intervention by the Government. We must be clear, as we attempt to deal with such problems in this Parliament, that progress will not be easy. Our job is to ensure that we put some meaning behind the buzz words.

Within the committee structure, as has already been suggested, we need to consider measurements and targets across a range of services. We need to be proactive rather than reactive. We need to ensure that economic stability is linked to programmes of social advancement. The challenge of the 21st century is to ensure that everyone who can contributes to, and shares in, economic progress. We must recognise that ability, enterprise and energy are not respecters of class and geography; everyone, irrespective of background, gender, race, disability or sexuality, should have the means to contribute and to realise their potential.

Exclusion is at its most absolute when people's lives and those of their children are governed by abuse, fear and terror. John Orr, the chief constable of Strathclyde police, found in research that a woman is hit 35 times before she makes her first report to the police. If there is one thing that the Parliament can do—and I hope very much that it will, despite the misogyny that we have seen recently—it is to put funding for women's aid on a secure and appropriate footing.

We must intervene at the earliest possible stage to alter the life chances of children and young people. To Mr Hamilton in particular, I say that members of Mothers Against Drugs, in my constituency, may not have the slickest of university debating skills, but they speak with a passion and a precision about drugs that anyone can understand.

We must liberate the communities that are trapped in a vicious circle of despair and crime. Nicola Sturgeon should note that programmes that the Executive will deliver, such as new community schools, early intervention schemes, expanded child care provision, family centres and alternatives to exclusion are the key steps in rebuilding and regenerating our communities.

I particularly welcome the signal that was given by the Executive in creating a Minister for Communities. Too often, communities such as Easterhouse are seen as the problem; in my experience, they are the solution. Let us work hand in hand with those communities to bring about change. Through consultation and dialogue, we can create solutions and legitimise answers— not with the arrogance of the privileged elite in the SNP, but as partners in a new and radical Scotland. Above all, if we have the will, we can create a new form of government. We can listen to the voices of the excluded and focus this Parliament not on immature semantics but on

tackling poverty, which, in the words of George Bernard Shaw, is

\"the greatest of evils and the worst of crimes\".

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2029E47P167C704603", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Henry, Hugh", "ID": 2029, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Hugh Henry", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Hugh Henry: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 167.0, "ContributionID": 704603, "EditedText": "If you wish there to be a tit-for-tat exchange across the chamber, Deputy Presiding Officer, I am more than happy to engage in one.", "EditedTextHTML": "If you wish there to be a tit-for-tat exchange across the chamber, Deputy Presiding Officer, I am more than happy to engage in one.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C704622", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 208.0, "ContributionID": 704622, "EditedText": "We should enter the single currency, but when the time is right. Dr Simpson, with his helpful intervention, knows that I am in favour of entering a single currency when the time is right. I am glad that Mr Salmond has returned to his place, as he, too, has not answered the question about the contradiction in SNP economic policy. Perhaps he can quietly do some policy making over the next hour or two, as the SNP did—pretty quickly—before the election, when it came up with expenditure and tax plans overnight. We are familiar with the speed at which the SNP can make policy, although it may not stand up to much scrutiny— Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP)rose—", "EditedTextHTML": "We should enter the single currency, but when the time is right. Dr Simpson, with his helpful intervention, knows that I am in favour of entering a single currency when the time is right.

I am glad that Mr Salmond has returned to his place, as he, too, has not answered the question about the contradiction in SNP economic policy. Perhaps he can quietly do some policy making over the next hour or two, as the SNP did—pretty quickly—before the election, when it came up with expenditure and tax plans overnight. We are familiar with the speed at which the SNP can make policy, although it may not stand up to much scrutiny—

Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP)

rose—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C704615", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 193.0, "ContributionID": 704615, "EditedText": "No, I will not give way to Mr McConnell. How can we overcome the problems created by the economic and social policies being pursued by Messrs Darling and Brown—I use the term Messrs advisedly—when we do not have the resources here in Scotland? This morning, I asked the First Minister which of the bills would do anything to reduce unemployment in Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I will not give way to Mr McConnell.

How can we overcome the problems created by the economic and social policies being pursued by Messrs Darling and Brown—I use the term Messrs

advisedly—when we do not have the resources here in Scotland? This morning, I asked the First Minister which of the bills would do anything to reduce unemployment in Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2134E160P198C704610", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McMahon, Michael", "ID": 2134, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton North and Bellshill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael McMahon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McMahon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 182.0, "ContributionID": 704610, "EditedText": "Although SNP members are keen on debating skills, their listening skills are obviously not as good. A transport bill; improvements in education; national parks, which will create jobs; land reform to deal with feudalism; affordable housing, which is a priority for the creation of stable communities; improvements in the health service; the Government's approach to working with local authorities, public agencies and the private and voluntary sectors—those things are a start. It is only right that the first aim of this Parliament is the creation of prosperity for this country. However, if we do not work to ensure that nobody is in any way excluded from access to that prosperity, we will undoubtedly fail the people. We should accept that we will not achieve change overnight, but we can at least lay down the foundations of the means by which everyone can feel included, regardless of which community they come from. This legislative programme can be the foundation of what we can achieve in the long term as well as delivering much immediately. The causes of social exclusion are many: poverty and deprivation; unemployment; low incomes; poor housing; broken homes; and bad health—the list is, unfortunately, too long. My main concern is with social exclusion as a result of discrimination. In particular, I want the practices of institutions and individuals that prevent disabled people and people from ethnic minorities from playing their full part in society to be eradicated. That will not be easy; it involves changing society's attitude to the way in which we treat each other as citizens. We must make everyone realise that we have a duty to be tolerant and respectful of one another's differences. Intolerance is rife in Scotland. We have to challenge that, and I am confident that in its proposals the Executive has given the Parliament enough scope to allow us to make a good start in tackling the problem. It is the responsibility of each of us in the chamber to monitor the progress that is made towards social inclusion. We have to identify and implement effective anti-discrimination strategies in all areas of legislation, where appropriate. Disabled people and ethnic minorities in Scotland deserve no less. I will give an illustration of the difficult task that we face. On Sunday night, I was at a gathering of a group within the Asian community. The guest speaker was Mr Salmond and I hope that he will concur with what I am about to say. While social exclusion is often seen as a euphemism for poverty, the number of Mercedes-Benz, BMWs and Daimlers in the hotel's car park gave no outward sign that this was a gathering of the socially excluded, if poverty were to be used as the criterion. However, as one speaker after another talked of their fears and concerns about their community in the wake of a series of racially motivated attacks, especially in the west of Scotland and including the death of Imran Khan, the sense of exclusion felt by the Asians in the room became tangible to the rest of us. Regardless of their financial status, the members of the Asian community who were present on Sunday night clearly believed themselves to be shut out from the rest of society. Parliament must focus on the needs of vulnerable groups that feel ostracised. We must always promote social inclusion and work to prevent social exclusion from happening in the first place. I am confident that this legislative programme will allow us to do that.", "EditedTextHTML": "Although SNP members are keen on debating skills, their listening skills are obviously not as good. A transport bill; improvements in education; national parks, which will create jobs; land reform to deal with feudalism; affordable housing, which is a priority for the creation of stable communities; improvements in the health service; the Government's approach to working with local authorities, public agencies and the private and voluntary sectors—those things are a start.

It is only right that the first aim of this Parliament is the creation of prosperity for this country. However, if we do not work to ensure that nobody is in any way excluded from access to that prosperity, we will undoubtedly fail the people. We should accept that we will not achieve change

overnight, but we can at least lay down the foundations of the means by which everyone can feel included, regardless of which community they come from. This legislative programme can be the foundation of what we can achieve in the long term as well as delivering much immediately.

The causes of social exclusion are many: poverty and deprivation; unemployment; low incomes; poor housing; broken homes; and bad health—the list is, unfortunately, too long. My main concern is with social exclusion as a result of discrimination. In particular, I want the practices of institutions and individuals that prevent disabled people and people from ethnic minorities from playing their full part in society to be eradicated. That will not be easy; it involves changing society's attitude to the way in which we treat each other as citizens.

We must make everyone realise that we have a duty to be tolerant and respectful of one another's differences. Intolerance is rife in Scotland. We have to challenge that, and I am confident that in its proposals the Executive has given the Parliament enough scope to allow us to make a good start in tackling the problem. It is the responsibility of each of us in the chamber to monitor the progress that is made towards social inclusion. We have to identify and implement effective anti-discrimination strategies in all areas of legislation, where appropriate. Disabled people and ethnic minorities in Scotland deserve no less.

I will give an illustration of the difficult task that we face. On Sunday night, I was at a gathering of a group within the Asian community. The guest speaker was Mr Salmond and I hope that he will concur with what I am about to say. While social exclusion is often seen as a euphemism for poverty, the number of Mercedes-Benz, BMWs and Daimlers in the hotel's car park gave no outward sign that this was a gathering of the socially excluded, if poverty were to be used as the criterion. However, as one speaker after another talked of their fears and concerns about their community in the wake of a series of racially motivated attacks, especially in the west of Scotland and including the death of Imran Khan, the sense of exclusion felt by the Asians in the room became tangible to the rest of us.

Regardless of their financial status, the members of the Asian community who were present on Sunday night clearly believed themselves to be shut out from the rest of society. Parliament must focus on the needs of vulnerable groups that feel ostracised. We must always promote social inclusion and work to prevent social exclusion from happening in the first place. I am confident that this legislative programme will allow us to do that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C704621", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Simpson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 206.0, "ContributionID": 704621, "EditedText": "Mr Neil regards an unemployment rate of 5 per cent or so as grinding, but does Mr Raffan agree that the rate that the SNP would have wreaked on us by going into the euro now would have been very much worse?", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Neil regards an unemployment rate of 5 per cent or so as grinding, but does Mr Raffan agree that the rate that the SNP would have wreaked on us by going into the euro now would have been very much worse?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1950E155P451C704626", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Campbell, Colin", "ID": 1950, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Colin Campbell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Colin Campbell (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 216.0, "ContributionID": 704626, "EditedText": "Which school of comedy did Mr Raffan go to? I want to avoid it.", "EditedTextHTML": "Which school of comedy did Mr Raffan go to? I want to avoid it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C704628", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 220.0, "ContributionID": 704628, "EditedText": "Whatever school of comedy I went to, it cannot compete with the school of farce to which Mr Campbell belongs. I want to deal with the legislative programme. I raised the serious point of pre-legislative scrutiny with the First Minister during questions on his statement. As the Parliament settles down, I hope that we will have time for such scrutiny, unlike at Westminster. It is important that concepts behind legislation are first put in green paper discussion form to be closely examined by the relevant committee. I am sure that the Conservative party in Scotland will agree with that, as that process would enable us to avoid such unfortunate measures as the poll tax. If proposals can be examined in advance, we will be able to produce much better legislation; we can set a trend that will get Westminster to change its bad ways. That is why I hope that there will not be a straitjacket of 12 months for the legislative process. I hope that we can have three or four months of pre-legislative scrutiny, when committees can take specialist evidence on the concepts at the basis of legislation before that legislation is debated.", "EditedTextHTML": "Whatever school of comedy I went to, it cannot compete with the school of farce to which Mr Campbell belongs.

I want to deal with the legislative programme. I raised the serious point of pre-legislative scrutiny with the First Minister during questions on his statement. As the Parliament settles down, I hope that we will have time for such scrutiny, unlike at Westminster. It is important that concepts behind legislation are first put in green paper discussion form to be closely examined by the relevant committee. I am sure that the Conservative party in Scotland will agree with that, as that process would enable us to avoid such unfortunate measures as the poll tax.

If proposals can be examined in advance, we will be able to produce much better legislation; we can set a trend that will get Westminster to change its bad ways. That is why I hope that there will not be a straitjacket of 12 months for the legislative process. I hope that we can have three or four months of pre-legislative scrutiny, when committees can take specialist evidence on the concepts at the basis of legislation before that legislation is debated.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C704629", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 222.0, "ContributionID": 704629, "EditedText": "Will Mr Raffan give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr Raffan give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C704630", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 224.0, "ContributionID": 704630, "EditedText": "Mr Neil did not give way to me, so I will not give way to him. However, I am happy to give way to other members. I think that is a fair principle.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Neil did not give way to me, so I will not give way to him. However, I am happy to give way to other members. I think that is a fair

principle.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C704631", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 226.0, "ContributionID": 704631, "EditedText": "Mr Raffan is causing some debate among us by mentioning the poll tax. We are trying to remember whether he voted for it when he was a Conservative MP.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Raffan is causing some debate among us by mentioning the poll tax. We are trying to remember whether he voted for it when he was a Conservative MP.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C704633", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 230.0, "ContributionID": 704633, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C704634", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 232.0, "ContributionID": 704634, "EditedText": "If Mr Salmond goes away and sorts out his economic policy, I will give way to him again. We are all waiting with bated breath for him to sort out fundamentals such as interest rates.", "EditedTextHTML": "If Mr Salmond goes away and sorts out his economic policy, I will give way to him again. We are all waiting with bated breath for him to sort out fundamentals such as interest rates.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C704636", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 236.0, "ContributionID": 704636, "EditedText": "I am failing to make progress only because I am giving way so generously to the SNP. On the legislative programme, it is important that the bills will be timetabled. We will not debate five sections for 14 meetings and rush through the remaining 85 sections in one meeting as at Westminster. It is important that there should be much more considered debate on bills. There are radical measures in the legislative programme that I welcome. I welcome land reform—no good landowner has anything to fear from the Government's proposals. Dr Jackson initiated a valuable debate last week on the Loch Lomond and Trossachs national park. I am a list member for the large region of Mid Scotland and Fife, which includes Loch Lomond and the Trossachs—the Cairngorms lie at its north-eastern edge. I am concerned that legislation for each of the national parks should be tailor-made for their particular needs. It is important to have enabling legislation based on the principle of balancing economic development and conservation. As I said last week, it is also important that local people are involved in the management of the national parks.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am failing to make progress only because I am giving way so generously to the SNP.

On the legislative programme, it is important that the bills will be timetabled. We will not debate five sections for 14 meetings and rush through the remaining 85 sections in one meeting as at Westminster. It is important that there should be much more considered debate on bills.

There are radical measures in the legislative programme that I welcome. I welcome land reform—no good landowner has anything to fear from the Government's proposals.

Dr Jackson initiated a valuable debate last week on the Loch Lomond and Trossachs national park. I am a list member for the large region of Mid Scotland and Fife, which includes Loch Lomond and the Trossachs—the Cairngorms lie at its north-eastern edge. I am concerned that legislation for each of the national parks should be tailor-made for their particular needs. It is important to have enabling legislation based on the principle of balancing economic development and conservation. As I said last week, it is also important that local people are involved in the management of the national parks.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C704637", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 238.0, "ContributionID": 704637, "EditedText": "Will Mr Raffan give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr Raffan give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C704638", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 240.0, "ContributionID": 704638, "EditedText": "I will continue, as I have given way several times.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will continue, as I have given way several times.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C704639", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 242.0, "ContributionID": 704639, "EditedText": "It is an important point.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is an important point.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1805E13P109C704643", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Whitefield, Karen", "ID": 1805, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Airdrie and Shotts" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Karen Whitefield", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Karen Whitefield (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 251.0, "ContributionID": 704643, "EditedText": "I welcome today's announcement of the Government's forthcoming legislative programme. I am especially pleased that it includes provision for an incapable adults bill. Recent comments in other places may have led some to believe that there is a need for a bill for incapable MSPs. That, however, is a debate for another day—a day when Mr Hamilton is present. It is important that we recognise the potential that an incapable adults bill has for improving lives in Scotland. I am pleased that the Government has made the introduction of such a bill a priority in its first term in office, as the issue is important for many people. I would like to make some important points about the current situation, the inadequacies of existing legislation, and the real difference that this bill could make to individual lives. Some members may be aware that much of the legislation relating to decisions on the welfare of adults with mental incapacity was made by the previous Scottish Parliament in 1585. Existing Scots law relating to mental incapacity is fragmented, unclear and archaic. Sadly, it has disadvantaged more than 100,000 Scots, people who are unable to make decisions for themselves because they suffer from a mental incapacity caused by dementia, a head injury, a learning disability or severe mental illness. Those Scots have been let down by existing legislation. Being diagnosed as suffering from a mental incapacity greatly restricts people's life. Things that each one of us in this chamber takes for granted are no longer possible. Such people no longer have the right to decide where they will live; they are unable to influence decisions about the medical treatment they require; they are not allowed to make a will; and they cannot even sign to collect the bus pass that they are entitled to. Carers are also disadvantaged, because they have no legal right to make decisions about the care arrangements for the person they care for. Even when the carer is the husband or wife of the person with the mental incapacity, he or she cannot manage the person's financial affairs, unless granted the power of attorney before the person became incapacitated. Existing legislation fails my constituents in Airdrie and Shotts—as it fails all Scots—who become incapacitated. It also fails their carers.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome today's announcement of the Government's forthcoming legislative programme. I am especially pleased that it includes provision for an incapable adults bill. Recent comments in other places may have led some to believe that there is a need for a bill for incapable MSPs. That, however, is a debate for another day—a day when Mr Hamilton is present. It is important that we recognise the potential that an incapable adults bill has for improving lives in Scotland. I am pleased that the Government has made the introduction of such a bill a priority in its first term in office, as the issue is important for many people.

I would like to make some important points about the current situation, the inadequacies of existing legislation, and the real difference that this bill could make to individual lives. Some members may be aware that much of the legislation relating to decisions on the welfare of adults with mental incapacity was made by the previous Scottish Parliament in 1585. Existing Scots law relating to mental incapacity is fragmented, unclear and archaic. Sadly, it has disadvantaged more than 100,000 Scots, people who are unable to make decisions for themselves because they suffer from a mental incapacity caused by dementia, a head injury, a learning disability or severe mental illness. Those Scots have been let down by existing legislation.

Being diagnosed as suffering from a mental incapacity greatly restricts people's life. Things that each one of us in this chamber takes for granted are no longer possible. Such people no longer have the right to decide where they will live; they are unable to influence decisions about the medical treatment they require; they are not allowed to make a will; and they cannot even sign to collect the bus pass that they are entitled to.

Carers are also disadvantaged, because they have no legal right to make decisions about the care arrangements for the person they care for. Even when the carer is the husband or wife of the person with the mental incapacity, he or she cannot manage the person's financial affairs, unless granted the power of attorney before the person became incapacitated.

Existing legislation fails my constituents in Airdrie and Shotts—as it fails all Scots—who become incapacitated. It also fails their carers.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1916E38P70C704644", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Ben", "ID": 1916, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ben Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ben Wallace (North-East Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 253.0, "ContributionID": 704644, "EditedText": "Following Miss Whitefield's wonderful speech last week, I wondered whether she would confirm—if she is not too busy with her many constituents in Airdrie and Shotts who she said would be queueing up at her door—that she is a little disappointed that the legislative programme hardly mentions health, unemployment and poverty, which she talked about so much in relation to her constituents. Will she join the other parties that are rather disappointed that the first thing in the programme is land reform and not the health and poverty of her constituents?", "EditedTextHTML": "Following Miss Whitefield's wonderful speech last week, I wondered whether she would confirm—if she is not too busy with her many constituents in Airdrie and Shotts who she said would be queueing up at her door—that she is a little disappointed that the legislative programme hardly mentions health, unemployment and poverty, which she talked about so much in relation to her constituents. Will she join the other parties that are rather disappointed that the first thing in the programme is land reform and not the health and poverty of her constituents?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C704647", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 260.0, "ContributionID": 704647, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1873E89P171C704657", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jackson, Dr Sylvia", "ID": 1873, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Stirling" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sylvia Jackson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Sylvia Jackson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 283.0, "ContributionID": 704657, "EditedText": "I want to remind the member of last week's debate, in which we talked about the importance of placing the national park development at Loch Lomond and the Trossachs in the context of the more holistic rural strategy that is being pursued by Stirling Council and the other two councils that are involved in the project. The development is not being viewed in isolation. We also emphasised the need to balance the environmental issues with social and economic development and accepted that many questions still remain to be addressed. Only this morning we said that an interim committee, which has already been established, will examine those very issues.", "EditedTextHTML": "I want to remind the member of last week's debate, in which we talked about the importance of placing the national park development at Loch Lomond and the Trossachs in the context of the more holistic rural strategy that is being pursued by Stirling Council and the other two councils that are involved in the project. The development is not being viewed in isolation. We also emphasised the need to balance the environmental issues with social and economic development and accepted that many questions still remain to be addressed. Only this morning we said that an interim committee, which has already been established, will examine those very issues.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C704655", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Murray Tosh (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 279.0, "ContributionID": 704655, "EditedText": "I will address the issues of national parks and roads. I have no constituency interest or concern in the Loch Lomond and Trossachs area, but it is an area that I know well, as I know many of the popular areas of Scotland that hillwalkers, climbers and other users of the countryside frequent, and I am well aware of the difficulties that exist as a result. In many of our most scenic areas there is severe erosion on the hillsides. There are also difficulties created by traffic in the glens, problems caused by erratic parking, difficulties created by litter, and disturbance to wildlife and to local people. I am therefore happy that, at an early stage, this Parliament is considering the action that should be taken. My concern is the concern that Mr McLetchie enunciated this morning, that the national park formula may not necessarily be the entire answer. The inevitable consequence of the national park approach is that it will draw more people in. We have to recognise that that may accentuate the problems.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will address the issues of national parks and roads. I have no constituency interest or concern in the Loch Lomond and Trossachs area, but it is an area that I know well, as I know many of the popular areas of Scotland that hillwalkers, climbers and other users of the countryside frequent, and I am well aware of the difficulties that exist as a result.

In many of our most scenic areas there is severe erosion on the hillsides. There are also difficulties created by traffic in the glens, problems caused by erratic parking, difficulties created by litter, and disturbance to wildlife and to local people. I am therefore happy that, at an early stage, this Parliament is considering the action that should be taken. My concern is the concern that Mr McLetchie enunciated this morning, that the national park formula may not necessarily be the entire answer. The inevitable consequence of the national park approach is that it will draw more people in. We have to recognise that that may accentuate the problems.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1873E89P171C704659", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jackson, Dr Sylvia", "ID": 1873, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Stirling" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sylvia Jackson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Jackson rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 287.0, "ContributionID": 704659, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C704662", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 293.0, "ContributionID": 704662, "EditedText": "I accept that, but it is the financial question that particularly concerns me. That, I am afraid, means control of the public purse, which involves the Government. On that, this Parliament must look to the Government for a lead and for an indication of its intentions. This morning, the Government has given us such an indication by outlining its proposals on roads. In one respect, I was not disappointed. Mr Dewar made much of the problem of congestion, which we all know about, but what is the key to tackling congestion? In many parts of our country, it is completing our strategic roads network. Mr Dewar is giving me a look that indicates that his mood now is not much better than that with which Mr Salmond credited him this morning, but two years ago the UK Government came into office with a commitment to a strategic roads review. That review has run for two years without coming to any conclusion. Mr Neil asked the Executive a written question about road improvement and received a response that revealed that ministers will be \"taking stock\". There is no sign of when the Government will address the issue of strategic roads. This morning, on my strategic journey along the A89—the A8 and M8 were blocked by an accident—I heard on the radio that the director of the Confederation of British Industry in Scotland is critically worried about the fact that our economy is uncompetitive and that we do not have the opportunity to create the jobs or pursue the economic development we need because there are so many gaps in our motorway network that remain to be plugged. Members would be delighted to hear ministers state clearly when they will make announcements and decisions on the issue. I fear that the spirit of what we have been told and of the green paper is that the Government will not do anything until its transport act is in place and the committees have discussed all the issues. There are more pressing problems that we should be tackling more urgently. I referred to my alternative route to Edinburgh this morning, along the A89 through the constituencies of Airdrie and Shotts, Linlithgow and Livingston. It raises an obvious point: the danger of motorway tolls is that we will not collect money or improve the environment, but simply displace traffic. Many motorways can be ducked by taking alternative routes. My fear is that motorway tolls will have no beneficial effect. Who are the people who drive into cities whom we are now going to tax to generate extra funding? By and large, they are not people bent on achieving some anti-social purpose, but people who need cities, who come to work in them and who undertake the hassle, ordeal, loss of time and inconvenience of driving through them to get to their places of employment. I wonder whether we should be penalising such people. Edinburgh has many surrounding areas where wages are low and unemployment is rising. In the Borders, for example, unemployment is not being offset by an increase in new jobs—as Mr Dewar suggested this morning. Many people in the Borders have little option but to come to Edinburgh to look for work. Once the Government's scheme is up and running, presumably they will be faced either with increased parking charges in the city or with access charges—road-use charges—which are unfair because they are a regressive tax that will be borne by people who drive not through choice, but through necessity.", "EditedTextHTML": "I accept that, but it is the financial question that particularly concerns me. That, I am afraid, means control of the public purse, which involves the Government. On that, this Parliament must look to the Government for a lead and for an indication of its intentions.

This morning, the Government has given us such an indication by outlining its proposals on roads. In one respect, I was not disappointed. Mr Dewar made much of the problem of congestion, which we all know about, but what is the key to tackling congestion? In many parts of our country, it is completing our strategic roads network. Mr Dewar is giving me a look that indicates that his mood now is not much better than that with which Mr Salmond credited him this morning, but two years ago the UK Government came into office with a commitment to a strategic roads review. That review has run for two years without coming to any conclusion. Mr Neil asked the Executive a written question about road improvement and received a response that revealed that ministers will be \"taking stock\". There is no sign of when the Government will address the issue of strategic roads.

This morning, on my strategic journey along the A89—the A8 and M8 were blocked by an accident—I heard on the radio that the director of the Confederation of British Industry in Scotland is critically worried about the fact that our economy is uncompetitive and that we do not have the opportunity to create the jobs or pursue the economic development we need because there are so many gaps in our motorway network that remain to be plugged. Members would be delighted to hear ministers state clearly when they will make announcements and decisions on the issue. I fear that the spirit of what we have been told and of the green paper is that the Government will not do anything until its transport act is in place and the committees have discussed all the issues. There are more pressing problems that we should be tackling more urgently.

I referred to my alternative route to Edinburgh this morning, along the A89 through the constituencies of Airdrie and Shotts, Linlithgow and Livingston. It raises an obvious point: the danger of motorway tolls is that we will not collect money or improve the environment, but simply displace traffic. Many motorways can be ducked by taking alternative routes. My fear is that motorway tolls will have no beneficial effect.

Who are the people who drive into cities whom we are now going to tax to generate extra funding? By and large, they are not people bent on achieving some anti-social purpose, but people who need cities, who come to work in them and who undertake the hassle, ordeal, loss of time and inconvenience of driving through them to get to their places of employment. I wonder whether we should be penalising such people.

Edinburgh has many surrounding areas where wages are low and unemployment is rising. In the Borders, for example, unemployment is not being offset by an increase in new jobs—as Mr Dewar suggested this morning. Many people in the Borders have little option but to come to Edinburgh to look for work. Once the Government's scheme is up and running, presumably they will be faced either with increased parking charges in the city or

with access charges—road-use charges—which are unfair because they are a regressive tax that will be borne by people who drive not through choice, but through necessity.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2188E70P92C704663", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harper, Robin", "ID": 2188, "PartyName": "Scottish Green Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Green", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robin Harper", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robin Harper (Lothians) (Green): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 295.0, "ContributionID": 704663, "EditedText": "Does Mr Tosh concede that building new roads—as was proved in London in the case of the M25—simply creates more traffic? That is a fundamental environmental perception. Study after study has shown that building more roads does not cut traffic; it creates more traffic. All that happens is that the same trouble is encountered further down the line. Secondly, does Mr Tosh concede that improvements in rail services to the Borders, for example as a result of opening up the old railway line to Galashiels, would solve the problem in a much better way than building more roads through the Borders?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does Mr Tosh concede that building new roads—as was proved in London in the case of the M25—simply creates more traffic? That is a fundamental environmental perception. Study after study has shown that building more roads does not cut traffic; it creates more traffic. All that happens is that the same trouble is encountered further down the line.

Secondly, does Mr Tosh concede that improvements in rail services to the Borders, for example as a result of opening up the old railway line to Galashiels, would solve the problem in a much better way than building more roads through the Borders?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C704664", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 297.0, "ContributionID": 704664, "EditedText": "I take that point entirely. If a rail scheme were introduced there, it would meet many of the concerns of the area. I am sure that Borders people will be interested to examine the partnership agreement and see how successfully the Liberal Democrats implanted a rail strategy in their agreement with Labour—they did not. On traffic generation, I do not know whether Parkinson's law provides the answer in Scotland. We need to examine household formation, the changing age structure and the female population's changing participation in road use. We should view car ownership as related to long- term social trends. Let us face it: we are nearly all drivers. We drive to work and for leisure; we drive because it enriches our lives and because it opens up activities which we could not participate in otherwise. Drivers should not be seen as the enemy. My concern about charging motorists for using existing roads is that they already pay very heavy taxes to use them. They are paying for them already. They are paying for their maintenance. That money is nowhere near being reinvested in roads. I am not suggesting for a moment that we concrete over the whole country and build motorway after motorway, but many members from local authority backgrounds and others are acutely aware that councils have repeatedly approached successive Governments and pointed to detailed, accurate and logically presented studies that say that the key to economic development in many peripheral areas is the provision of a good transport infrastructure. There is a crying need in much of the country: rural areas—and areas such as North Ayrshire— need a much better transport infrastructure. There are gaps in our motorway system—in the strategic road system—that need to be closed. The Government must act on the matter soon if it is in earnest about promoting economic development in such areas, and—as is at the top of its agenda— about tackling poverty, low wages and social exclusion.", "EditedTextHTML": "I take that point entirely. If a rail scheme were introduced there, it would meet many of the concerns of the area. I am sure that Borders people will be interested to examine the partnership agreement and see how successfully the Liberal Democrats implanted a rail strategy in their agreement with Labour—they did not.

On traffic generation, I do not know whether Parkinson's law provides the answer in Scotland. We need to examine household formation, the changing age structure and the female population's changing participation in road use. We should view car ownership as related to long- term social trends. Let us face it: we are nearly all drivers. We drive to work and for leisure; we drive because it enriches our lives and because it opens up activities which we could not participate in otherwise. Drivers should not be seen as the enemy.

My concern about charging motorists for using existing roads is that they already pay very heavy taxes to use them. They are paying for them already. They are paying for their maintenance. That money is nowhere near being reinvested in roads. I am not suggesting for a moment that we concrete over the whole country and build motorway after motorway, but many members from local authority backgrounds and others are acutely aware that councils have repeatedly approached successive Governments and pointed to detailed, accurate and logically presented studies that say that the key to economic development in many peripheral areas is the provision of a good transport infrastructure.

There is a crying need in much of the country: rural areas—and areas such as North Ayrshire— need a much better transport infrastructure. There are gaps in our motorway system—in the strategic road system—that need to be closed. The

Government must act on the matter soon if it is in earnest about promoting economic development in such areas, and—as is at the top of its agenda— about tackling poverty, low wages and social exclusion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C704674", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 319.0, "ContributionID": 704674, "EditedText": "I said this morning that many ofour health problems do not need additional legislation. I should have liked health to be further up the agenda, but I made it clear that I was not asking for restructuring of the health service.", "EditedTextHTML": "I said this morning that many of

our health problems do not need additional legislation. I should have liked health to be further up the agenda, but I made it clear that I was not asking for restructuring of the health service.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704666", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 302.0, "ContributionID": 704666, "EditedText": "Meeting adjourned at 12:27.", "EditedTextHTML": "Meeting adjourned at 12:27.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C704670", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 309.0, "ContributionID": 704670, "EditedText": "I thought, Mr Salmond, that I had made that point.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thought, Mr Salmond, that I had made that point.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C704673", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Richard Simpson (Ochil) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 317.0, "ContributionID": 704673, "EditedText": "The last speech did not sound like a maiden speech. It was a polished performance, but did it address the proposed legislation that was put before us by the Executive today? Apart from the freedom of information question, which will have to be discussed at some point, it did not. It did raise significant and important issues, and there is no doubt that members will wish to discuss them— opportunities to do so will arise. I am beginning to get a strong feeling that many of the Opposition speakers are confusing action that can be taken, using current laws, with areas where new law is clearly needed. Rushing in haste to make laws on individual issues is not the best solution. One example from this morning is Mary Scanlon who, among others, wanted a new law on health. The new NHS structures in Scotland have been put in place only within the past two months. The health professionals and the public in Scotland would not thank the Parliament for embarking on yet further legislation before we see how the new legislation changes our structures for the better. The Health and Community Care Committee will have the opportunity to look at how the legislation is working to achieve the goal on which most of us agree—a health service that truly meets the needs of the Scottish people.", "EditedTextHTML": "The last speech did not sound like a maiden speech. It was a polished performance, but did it address the proposed legislation that was put before us by the Executive today? Apart from the freedom of information question, which will have to be discussed at some point, it did not. It did raise significant and important issues, and there is no doubt that members will wish to discuss them— opportunities to do so will arise.

I am beginning to get a strong feeling that many of the Opposition speakers are confusing action that can be taken, using current laws, with areas where new law is clearly needed. Rushing in haste to make laws on individual issues is not the best solution.

One example from this morning is Mary Scanlon who, among others, wanted a new law on health. The new NHS structures in Scotland have been put in place only within the past two months. The health professionals and the public in Scotland would not thank the Parliament for embarking on yet further legislation before we see how the new legislation changes our structures for the better. The Health and Community Care Committee will have the opportunity to look at how the legislation is working to achieve the goal on which most of us agree—a health service that truly meets the needs of the Scottish people.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C704675", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Simpson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 321.0, "ContributionID": 704675, "EditedText": "That makes my point extremely well. I thought that this debate was about the alternate legislation that was required, not about actions that might—appropriately, I agree with Mary Scanlon—be taken. Although Mrs Ewing said that she, and the public, had not been impressed, I have been impressed that a number of speakers from different parties have already shown a passion and a determination to tackle the scourge of drugs, which affects so many communities in Scotland. However, does the issue of drugs require new laws? No; it needs a joined-up, multifaceted approach—to which Keith Raffan referred—which deals with education, treatment and effective policing. Above all else, it needs the involvement of the people: unless our citizens are genuinely on our side—on that, we can provide leadership without new laws—we will not achieve our objectives. Mary Scanlon referred to Mothers Against Drugs; a group in my community—Locals Against Drugs in Alloa, or LADA—represents another sign that individual groups are beginning to get together to tackle the issue of drugs. We must provide the leadership, without legislation, to enable them to do so. I am sorry that Alex Salmond is not here, because I have asked the SNP twice whether it is prepared to go against the advice of the chief medical officer on the beef-on-the-bone ban. It is important that we should know and, at some point, I should like a clear answer. I know the SNP's policy on the ban and I have already said that we all wish it to be lifted at an appropriate time, but to go against the chief medical officer's advice is an extremely dangerous course of action. Opposition members have said that the legislation that was outlined today is inadequate and does not meet the needs of the Scottish people. The 100,000 Scots who are affected by the incapable adults bill would not agree with them. That bill sets a stamp on what this chamber is about; it deals with a group of people who are the subject of archaic and unfair laws, which are higgledy-piggledy, fragmented and all over the place. If the Parliament can address such issues in its first session, we will deal with them effectively. I was in my surgery on Monday, as I have the misfortune of still having to work out my notice in my previous job. A patient said to me, \"I know your views on living wills, which I very much support, but will the Parliament make them statutory?\" I answered that I was not sure that we needed a statute. We need health professionals who are prepared to listen to patients, accept what they say, put living wills into their case notes—as I have done throughout my professional life—and respect the wishes and dignity of the individual patient. Health professionals should take people's clearly expressed prior wishes into account, and I think that they are beginning to do so. Through this chamber, we can encourage them to do so, but I question whether we need specific legislation on living wills. We need legislation on the general issue, because it is an important area in which difficult questions need to be answered. For example, in accident and emergency departments today—at this very moment—a junior doctor is probably technically assaulting a patient. Junior doctors do not have the authority or permission, in law, to undertake the necessary tests to produce a diagnosis and to go on to manage that patient. Indeed, if a junior doctor goes on to administer treatment to a still-unconscious patient, for example to reduce brain swelling, the doctor is technically assaulting the patient. Our hard- pressed junior doctors, to whom Opposition members referred this morning, have enough problems on their hands without worrying about the legal position. The chamber has a duty to ensure that the health professionals have clear laws that support them and allow them to proceed appropriately.", "EditedTextHTML": "That makes my point extremely well. I thought that this debate was about the alternate legislation that was required, not about actions that might—appropriately, I agree with Mary Scanlon—be taken.

Although Mrs Ewing said that she, and the public, had not been impressed, I have been impressed that a number of speakers from different parties have already shown a passion and a determination to tackle the scourge of drugs, which affects so many communities in Scotland. However, does the issue of drugs require new laws? No; it needs a joined-up, multifaceted approach—to which Keith Raffan referred—which deals with education, treatment and effective policing. Above all else, it needs the involvement of the people: unless our citizens are genuinely on our side—on that, we can provide leadership without new laws—we will not achieve our objectives. Mary Scanlon referred to Mothers Against Drugs; a group in my community—Locals Against Drugs in Alloa, or LADA—represents another sign that individual groups are beginning to get together to tackle the issue of drugs. We must provide the leadership, without legislation, to enable them to do so.

I am sorry that Alex Salmond is not here, because I have asked the SNP twice whether it is prepared to go against the advice of the chief medical officer on the beef-on-the-bone ban. It is important that we should know and, at some point, I should like a clear answer. I know the SNP's policy on the ban and I have already said that we all wish it to be lifted at an appropriate time, but to go against the chief medical officer's advice is an extremely dangerous course of action.

Opposition members have said that the legislation that was outlined today is inadequate and does not meet the needs of the Scottish people. The 100,000 Scots who are affected by the incapable adults bill would not agree with them. That bill sets a stamp on what this chamber is about; it deals with a group of people who are the subject of archaic and unfair laws, which are higgledy-piggledy, fragmented and all over the place. If the Parliament can address such issues in its first session, we will deal with them effectively.

I was in my surgery on Monday, as I have the misfortune of still having to work out my notice in my previous job. A patient said to me, \"I know your views on living wills, which I very much support, but will the Parliament make them statutory?\" I answered that I was not sure that we needed a statute. We need health professionals who are prepared to listen to patients, accept what they say, put living wills into their case notes—as I have done throughout my professional life—and respect the wishes and dignity of the individual patient. Health professionals should take people's clearly expressed prior wishes into account, and I think that they are beginning to do so. Through this chamber, we can encourage them to do so, but I question whether we need specific legislation on living wills.

We need legislation on the general issue, because it is an important area in which difficult questions need to be answered. For example, in accident and emergency departments today—at this very moment—a junior doctor is probably technically assaulting a patient. Junior doctors do not have the authority or permission, in law, to undertake the necessary tests to produce a diagnosis and to go on to manage that patient. Indeed, if a junior doctor goes on to administer treatment to a still-unconscious patient, for example to reduce brain swelling, the doctor is technically assaulting the patient. Our hard- pressed junior doctors, to whom Opposition members referred this morning, have enough problems on their hands without worrying about the legal position. The chamber has a duty to ensure that the health professionals have clear laws that support them and allow them to proceed appropriately.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1821E295P538C704676", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Mrs Margaret", "ID": 1821, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Moray" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Margaret Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 323.0, "ContributionID": 704676, "EditedText": "Does that mean that the Labour party now supports regarding the hours directive that applies to junior doctors as significant in their contract of employment? I agree with those sentiments.", "EditedTextHTML": "Does that mean that the Labour party now supports regarding the hours directive that applies to junior doctors as significant in their contract of employment? I agree with those sentiments.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C704677", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Simpson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 325.0, "ContributionID": 704677, "EditedText": "I cannot speak on behalf of the Labour party, but I can speak as a doctor and as someone whose son is an accident and emergency doctor. We have reduced junior doctors' hours already and have agreements in place with junior doctors. I, along with everybody else, will certainly question the Executive to ensure that those agreements are met, and that the health authorities and trusts in Scotland fulfil their obligations to junior doctors, who are still treated extremely badly. The treatment of junior doctors is not just a question of hours. Most junior doctors are dedicated and will work the hours that are necessary to complete the job rather than fixed hours. We should also consider their accommodation and support, and the dignity with which they are treated as employees. The situation is not good at the moment and we need to address it. I am sorry that I cannot give Mrs Ewing a straight answer. Many groups, such as the National Schizophrenia Fellowship and the Alzheimer action group, have described the legislation in that area as fragmented, archaic or unfair, both on financial matters and on welfare. I have significant experience in that area. As Karen Whitefield pointed out in her excellent speech this morning, it is tragic and extremely upsetting that a couple's joint bank account should be frozen when the husband falls ill and is incapable; we cannot manage such situations. I very much welcome the statement that the proposed bill makes to our country: we care about people and will do something about it.", "EditedTextHTML": "I cannot speak on behalf of the Labour party, but I can speak as a doctor and as someone whose son is an accident and emergency doctor. We have reduced junior doctors' hours already and have agreements in place with junior doctors. I, along with everybody else, will certainly question the Executive to ensure that those agreements are met, and that the health authorities and trusts in Scotland fulfil their obligations to junior doctors, who are still treated extremely badly. The treatment of junior doctors is not just a question of hours. Most junior doctors are dedicated and will work the hours that are necessary to complete the job rather than fixed hours. We should also consider their accommodation and support, and the dignity with which they are treated as employees. The situation is not good at the moment and we need to address it. I am sorry that I cannot give Mrs Ewing a straight answer.

Many groups, such as the National Schizophrenia Fellowship and the Alzheimer action group, have described the legislation in that area as fragmented, archaic or unfair, both on

financial matters and on welfare. I have significant experience in that area. As Karen Whitefield pointed out in her excellent speech this morning, it is tragic and extremely upsetting that a couple's joint bank account should be frozen when the husband falls ill and is incapable; we cannot manage such situations. I very much welcome the statement that the proposed bill makes to our country: we care about people and will do something about it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C704678", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 328.0, "ContributionID": 704678, "EditedText": "Margaret Ewing's umpteenth maiden speech was a good one. It was expressed with all the sincerity that I have always recognised in her, but I will pick up on one phrase: she said that she would use this Parliament as a stepping stone to independence. I do not criticise her, but I see it as a warning to all the unionist parties in this chamber to ensure that she does not achieve that aim. I take Dr Simpson's point about rushing into legislation. There was another absence in the First Minister's speech. He failed to make a statement about getting rid of archaic laws. Members should consider the recommendations of the Law Society of Scotland, which has suggested that Scotland is overburdened with laws that date from way back. Karen Whitefield made that point this morning. The Parliament has a duty to consider those laws and to get rid of them—the quicker the better— before we begin a heavy work load of eight bills in the coming year. That is a heck of a time scale in which to achieve good legislation. I am concerned that the Executive has come forward with so many bills. However, in a few minutes I will point out some omissions: areas that should have been included. Among the bills that the Executive is pushing through I welcome the bill on standards in local government. The First Minister suggested that the problems in local government were distinct Scottish problems. I think that they are wider than that, but I will take his word for it. Perhaps we Conservatives can relax a bit; we have not been in an administration in any authority in Scotland recently, so we cannot be regarded as the party that is at fault over ethical issues in local government. I go along entirely with the incapable adults bill and look forward to it being presented. It will offer much and is very much needed. I agree with Dr Simpson that Karen Whitefield made a good speech this morning. She presented the facts. I honestly do not think that any other member needs to go into detail on that bill. Robin Harper intervened in Murray Tosh's speech to speak about money being spent on roads and about improvements to the environment. I refer him to the arguments that we had about the link between the A77 and the M8 in Glasgow; the provision of the M77 by the Tory Government has improved environmental conditions hugely in the Thornliebank area of Glasgow and elsewhere. That road has brought benefits to Ayrshire, as well as to people in Glasgow. Money spent wisely on roads can bring great benefits in many ways.", "EditedTextHTML": "Margaret Ewing's umpteenth maiden speech was a good one. It was expressed with all the sincerity that I have always recognised in her, but I will pick up on one phrase: she said that she would use this Parliament as a stepping stone to independence. I do not criticise her, but I see it as a warning to all the unionist parties in this chamber to ensure that she does not achieve that aim.

I take Dr Simpson's point about rushing into legislation. There was another absence in the First Minister's speech. He failed to make a statement about getting rid of archaic laws. Members should consider the recommendations of the Law Society of Scotland, which has suggested that Scotland is overburdened with laws that date from way back. Karen Whitefield made that point this morning. The Parliament has a duty to consider those laws and to get rid of them—the quicker the better— before we begin a heavy work load of eight bills in the coming year. That is a heck of a time scale in which to achieve good legislation. I am concerned that the Executive has come forward with so many bills. However, in a few minutes I will point out some omissions: areas that should have been included.

Among the bills that the Executive is pushing through I welcome the bill on standards in local government. The First Minister suggested that the problems in local government were distinct Scottish problems. I think that they are wider than that, but I will take his word for it. Perhaps we Conservatives can relax a bit; we have not been in an administration in any authority in Scotland recently, so we cannot be regarded as the party that is at fault over ethical issues in local government.

I go along entirely with the incapable adults bill and look forward to it being presented. It will offer much and is very much needed. I agree with Dr Simpson that Karen Whitefield made a good speech this morning. She presented the facts. I honestly do not think that any other member needs to go into detail on that bill.

Robin Harper intervened in Murray Tosh's speech to speak about money being spent on roads and about improvements to the environment. I refer him to the arguments that we had about the link between the A77 and the M8 in Glasgow; the provision of the M77 by the Tory Government has improved environmental conditions hugely in the Thornliebank area of Glasgow and elsewhere. That road has brought benefits to Ayrshire, as well as to people in Glasgow.

Money spent wisely on roads can bring great benefits in many ways.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C704679", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 330.0, "ContributionID": 704679, "EditedText": "I hope that my intervention does not prevent me from being called later—I will be brief. Can Phil Gallie tell us some of the environmental benefits of the M77 to the people of Glasgow, particularly those of Corkerhill and greater Pollok, whose suffering through increased pollution and the loss of public transport services is a damning indictment of the construction of that road? I am sure that Robin would agree that the £53 million that was spent on constructing that road would have been better spent on improving the public transport infrastructure in and around greater Pollok.", "EditedTextHTML": "I hope that my intervention does not prevent me from being called later—I will be brief.

Can Phil Gallie tell us some of the environmental benefits of the M77 to the people of Glasgow, particularly those of Corkerhill and greater Pollok, whose suffering through increased pollution and the loss of public transport services is a damning indictment of the construction of that road? I am sure that Robin would agree that the £53 million that was spent on constructing that road would have been better spent on improving the public transport infrastructure in and around greater Pollok.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C704685", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 344.0, "ContributionID": 704685, "EditedText": "I, too, am a member for the Highlands and Islands. Perhaps I missed something this morning, but I was not aware of the Government's commitments to or proposals for Gaelic. Would Mrs Macmillan care to outline those commitments? I am very supportive of her cause and would be genuinely interested in hearing the proposals.", "EditedTextHTML": "I, too, am a member for the Highlands and Islands. Perhaps I missed something this morning, but I was not aware of the Government's commitments to or proposals for Gaelic. Would Mrs Macmillan care to outline those commitments? I am very supportive of her cause

and would be genuinely interested in hearing the proposals.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1840E82P158C704688", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macmillan, Maureen", "ID": 1840, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Maureen Macmillan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Maureen Macmillan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 350.0, "ContributionID": 704688, "EditedText": "I am not giving way again. I want to talk about other aspects of cultural regeneration, particularly land reform. What is the use of regenerating culture in crofting communities through the language if those communities do not own their land and have to live and work at the whim of some cash-heavy individual who wants a bit of Highland hill to impress his friends? We have to examine the problem of shadowy landowners. Where companies own land, we do not know which individuals have real control over it. It is crucial to the furtherance of our proposals that we formulate strategies to discover the real owners of Highland land. Landlordism—whether practised by traditional landlords or by shadowy companies—has almost destroyed the Highland environment. Landlords introduced sheep and expanded deer forests. They have stifled enterprise by refusing to countenance any development that might spoil the view. I want legislation that will give power to communities who want such power and that will allow the Highlands and Islands to take a leap from the 19th into the 21st century.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am not giving way again. I want to talk about other aspects of cultural regeneration, particularly land reform. What is the use of regenerating culture in crofting communities through the language if those communities do not own their land and have to live and work at the whim of some cash-heavy individual who wants a bit of Highland hill to impress his friends?

We have to examine the problem of shadowy landowners. Where companies own land, we do not know which individuals have real control over it. It is crucial to the furtherance of our proposals that we formulate strategies to discover the real owners of Highland land. Landlordism—whether practised by traditional landlords or by shadowy companies—has almost destroyed the Highland environment. Landlords introduced sheep and expanded deer forests. They have stifled enterprise by refusing to countenance any development that might spoil the view. I want legislation that will give power to communities who want such power and that will allow the Highlands and Islands to take a leap from the 19th into the 21st century.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2112E192P495C704691", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacAskill, Kenny", "ID": 2112, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenny MacAskill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr MacAskill: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 357.0, "ContributionID": 704691, "EditedText": "I will give way in a minute.I then thought that Ms Curran might have levelled the charge because of the education that I am providing for my children. My eldest boy set off today for his first induction day at Boroughmuir High School, an alma mater at which until only recently my friend Robin Harper taught. However, I thought that that could not be the case, as Ms Harriet Harman used various means to send her children to specific schools.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will give way in a minute.

I then thought that Ms Curran might have levelled the charge because of the education that I am providing for my children. My eldest boy set off today for his first induction day at Boroughmuir High School, an alma mater at which until only recently my friend Robin Harper taught. However, I thought that that could not be the case, as Ms

Harriet Harman used various means to send her children to specific schools.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2112E192P495C704693", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacAskill, Kenny", "ID": 2112, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenny MacAskill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr MacAskill: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 361.0, "ContributionID": 704693, "EditedText": "I will now let someone from the underprivileged section intervene to tell me where Ms Harman chose to send her children.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will now let someone from the underprivileged section intervene to tell me where Ms Harman chose to send her children.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1820E139P227C704694", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Curran, Margaret", "ID": 1820, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Baillieston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Curran", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Curran: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 363.0, "ContributionID": 704694, "EditedText": "I think that Mr MacAskill knows what I was referring to this morning. Does he disassociate himself from Mr Hamilton's article in the Glasgow Evening Times?", "EditedTextHTML": "I think that Mr MacAskill knows what I was referring to this morning. Does he disassociate himself from Mr Hamilton's article in the Glasgow Evening Times?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2112E192P495C704695", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacAskill, Kenny", "ID": 2112, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenny MacAskill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr MacAskill: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 365.0, "ContributionID": 704695, "EditedText": "I have not read Mr Hamilton's article.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have not read Mr Hamilton's article.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1820E139P227C704696", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Curran, Margaret", "ID": 1820, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Baillieston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Curran", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Curran: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 367.0, "ContributionID": 704696, "EditedText": "I suggest that Mr MacAskill does so. It makes very interesting reading.", "EditedTextHTML": "I suggest that Mr MacAskill does so. It makes very interesting reading.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1893E47P78C704698", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnstone, Alex", "ID": 1893, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Johnstone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Johnstone (North-East Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 372.0, "ContributionID": 704698, "EditedText": "I do not know about other members, but at times this morning I was delighted by the quality of debate. One lady is still seated on my extreme left—and I think that she is to the left of most of us. Would that be the case?", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not know about other members, but at times this morning I was delighted by the quality of debate. One lady is still seated on my extreme left—and I think that she is to the left of most of us. Would that be the case?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C704703", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 382.0, "ContributionID": 704703, "EditedText": "I am grateful to Mr Johnstone and I am sure that he is not suffering from selective amnesia. Until fairly recently, his party had been in power for 18 years; it had the opportunity to do a lot to promote farm produce. What is the result? We are decades behind the French. We have no equivalent to Sopexa. His party—the former UK Government—had the opportunity to do something but it did nothing.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful to Mr Johnstone and I am sure that he is not suffering from selective amnesia. Until fairly recently, his party had been in power for 18 years; it had the opportunity to do a lot to promote farm produce. What is the result? We are decades behind the French. We have no equivalent to Sopexa. His party—the former UK Government—had the opportunity to do something but it did nothing.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C704705", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon (Argyll and Bute) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 386.0, "ContributionID": 704705, "EditedText": "It is hard to accept some of the statements that Mr Johnstone has just made about BSE and its impact on the industry. As he is probably well aware, the dairy industry is afflicted by the problem of the over-30-months scheme. That scheme is a direct result of total mismanagement of the BSE crisis by the Conservative Government. Mr Johnstone is also aware that the calf- processing scheme is a direct result of BSE; it was introduced to counteract the effects of BSE. Again, that was down to Mr Johnstone's party when it was in power. The pig industry is suffering from extra costs as a result of the ban on the use of meat and bonemeal material in pig rations. I suggest that Mr Johnstone does some homework on his party's track record before claiming that the problems have nothing to do with the Conservatives.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is hard to accept some of the statements that Mr Johnstone has just made about BSE and its impact on the industry. As he is probably well aware, the dairy industry is afflicted by the problem of the over-30-months scheme. That scheme is a direct result of total mismanagement of the BSE crisis by the Conservative Government.

Mr Johnstone is also aware that the calf- processing scheme is a direct result of BSE; it was introduced to counteract the effects of BSE. Again, that was down to Mr Johnstone's party when it was in power. The pig industry is suffering from extra costs as a result of the ban on the use of meat and bonemeal material in pig rations. I suggest that Mr Johnstone does some homework on his party's track record before claiming that the problems have nothing to do with the Conservatives.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1986E53P206C704707", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNeil, Duncan", "ID": 1986, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Greenock and Inverclyde" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan McNeil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Duncan McNeil (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 391.0, "ContributionID": 704707, "EditedText": "I was anxious to speak today for a selfish reason. I do not know whether this is appropriate, but I would like to announce that, yesterday afternoon in Harrow, my daughter gave birth to my first granddaughter. She weighed in at 6lb 14oz— members can tell that she does not take after my side of the family. I felt that in this family-friendly Parliament, I could not miss the opportunity to make that announcement. Applause. That applause has just spurred me on, so I will continue with an apology. I have never participated in or witnessed a public school debate and I have never been to Australia. However, I have been forced to debate my arguments and present my case in shipyards on the Clyde, in the bottling halls of Dumbarton and in the mills of Falkirk and Grangemouth. There were no formal rules, but if people made personal attacks on others they were more likely to get a black eye than a debate. That rarely happened, although sometimes people got a sore nose. The basic rule was that if someone was talking nonsense, they were told that they were talking nonsense. Much nonsense has been talked—or has been reported—during the past few weeks. I think that we all feel relief today that we are now reaching a sense of purpose about the business of the Parliament and are getting down to it. The First Minister's statement set out a programme that we can all support and that understands the power of education. We should all rally behind it, as I hope we will. The programme will raise expectations—rightly so, because the expectations of the people whom I represent are extremely low. I hope that, as was said this morning, the programme will support the regeneration of our economy. Some people say that we need a bill before Parliament to discuss unemployment or to tackle the problems of redundancies and jobs. However, we did not need a bill or a debate to send a task force into Govan, which the workers were discussing this morning. I hope that the task force will bear fruit for the more than 200 people in my constituency who depend on the Kvaerner Govan yard for their livelihood.I welcome the First Minister's stated priority of targeting heart disease and cancer. Greenock and Inverclyde have a high incidence of disease and ill health, which needs to be fought relentlessly. I also welcome the priority of building strong and stable communities that are not overshadowed by the fear of crime. We do not need to have legislation in place to attack drugs, but drugs are the big issue on the streets and we must get a grip of the situation. We know that drug-related crime is up and that drug-related deaths are on the increase. Against that background, the need for action cannot be questioned. A lot can be done through education, as Trish Godman said, and by providing rehabilitation centres where there are none for people who want to come off drugs. I say to Phil Gallie that where there are no places in a rehabilitation centre, people come through your back window. The issue needs to be addressed urgently. If we address it and some of the other issues, I am confident that my constituents will support the priorities of the Parliament and the programme.", "EditedTextHTML": "I was anxious to speak today for a selfish reason. I do not know whether this is appropriate, but I would like to announce that, yesterday afternoon in Harrow, my daughter gave birth to my first granddaughter. She weighed in at 6lb 14oz— members can tell that she does not take after my side of the family. I felt that in this family-friendly Parliament, I could not miss the opportunity to make that announcement. [Applause.]

That applause has just spurred me on, so I will continue with an apology. I have never participated in or witnessed a public school debate and I have never been to Australia. However, I have been forced to debate my arguments and present my case in shipyards on the Clyde, in the bottling halls of Dumbarton and in the mills of Falkirk and Grangemouth. There were no formal rules, but if people made personal attacks on others they were more likely to get a black eye than a debate. That rarely happened, although sometimes people got a sore nose. The basic rule was that if someone was talking nonsense, they were told that they were talking nonsense. Much nonsense has been talked—or has been reported—during the past few weeks. I think that we all feel relief today that we are now reaching a sense of purpose about the business of the Parliament and are getting down to it.

The First Minister's statement set out a programme that we can all support and that understands the power of education. We should all rally behind it, as I hope we will. The programme will raise expectations—rightly so, because the expectations of the people whom I represent are extremely low.

I hope that, as was said this morning, the programme will support the regeneration of our economy. Some people say that we need a bill before Parliament to discuss unemployment or to tackle the problems of redundancies and jobs. However, we did not need a bill or a debate to send a task force into Govan, which the workers were discussing this morning. I hope that the task force will bear fruit for the more than 200 people in my constituency who depend on the Kvaerner

Govan yard for their livelihood.

I welcome the First Minister's stated priority of targeting heart disease and cancer. Greenock and Inverclyde have a high incidence of disease and ill health, which needs to be fought relentlessly. I also welcome the priority of building strong and stable communities that are not overshadowed by the fear of crime. We do not need to have legislation in place to attack drugs, but drugs are the big issue on the streets and we must get a grip of the situation. We know that drug-related crime is up and that drug-related deaths are on the increase.

Against that background, the need for action cannot be questioned. A lot can be done through education, as Trish Godman said, and by providing rehabilitation centres where there are none for people who want to come off drugs. I say to Phil Gallie that where there are no places in a rehabilitation centre, people come through your back window. The issue needs to be addressed urgently. If we address it and some of the other issues, I am confident that my constituents will support the priorities of the Parliament and the programme.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C704720", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 419.0, "ContributionID": 704720, "EditedText": "I am sorry, Mr Ewing. Could you start again, because the microphone was not on?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry, Mr Ewing. Could you start again, because the microphone was not on?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C704723", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan (Glasgow) (SSP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 426.0, "ContributionID": 704723, "EditedText": "As an elected socialist, it is my duty to welcome any and all measures that will improve in any way, shape or form the quality or standard of life of ordinary men and women in Scotland. I hope that the incapable adults bill, the education bill and the transport bill will contain measures that do so. I hope that there is an early investigation into ScotRail's running of the Edinburgh to Glasgow express. The company should be renamed snail rail, and the service should be renamed the sardine express, such is the lack of carriages and seating. I hope that the matter is addressed seriously. The commuters who used to get a seat do not any longer, such is the size of the press corps and the number of MSPs coming through from Glasgow. When he spoke this morning, the First Minister asked for constructive dialogue and debate. I agree. For the record, it is important to highlight some of the serious weaknesses in what was presented this morning. One of those weaknesses is the lack of a quality of life bill, designed to look fundamentally at the serious poverty pervading all corners of Scotland, not just among the unemployed, but among the low-paid, students, pensioners and those who are, in modern-day parlance, socially excluded. I find it unacceptable that the elected Scottish Parliament, whose first priority should be to tackle the scourge of poverty, is not prepared to set targets. I want to know in two, three and four years' time the progress that this Parliament has made in tackling the scourge of poverty. Whether they are simplistic targets or not, as the First Minister said this morning, we need targets to measure the success or failure of this Parliament in addressing that priority. On the local government bill, we have to consider the detailed McIntosh report, which looks at local government from all angles, but Governments are there to govern: they should always be prepared to give political direction to committees of inquiry. We should consider the results, but also the political priorities. The large number of members who spoke today about support for progressive taxation means that there must be a base of support in this chamber for the early abolition of the council tax in Scotland. The council tax is an acutely regressive piece of taxation. In 1988, under the old rates system, the differential between a small tenement in Govan and a large mansion in Pollokshields was 14:1—the wealthier parts of Glasgow paid 14 times more than the poorer parts. The differential today is 3:1. By any standard or measure, that is regressive taxation, so I hope that, as part of the local government bill, we will bring forward an early piece of legislation saying that we want to replace the regressive council tax with a progressive local income tax that specifically exempts our pensioners, students, disabled and unemployed and generates more income from those with the ability to pay. We would then have a differential of 10:1, rather than 3:1. I know that I do not hold the monopoly of concern about housing, but I hope that others are as puzzled and dismayed as I am that there is not a specific housing bill. There is a serious housing problem in Scotland and the green paper, which took its final reports on 31 May, inspired some very positive responses from the City of Glasgow Council and COSLA on the creation of a national housing agency, on the channelling of public funds through one agency and on the co-ordination of planning with housing to regenerate both rural and urban communities.", "EditedTextHTML": "As an elected socialist, it is my duty to welcome any and all measures that will improve in any way, shape or form the quality or standard of life of ordinary men and women in Scotland. I hope that the incapable adults bill, the education bill and the transport bill will contain measures that do so.

I hope that there is an early investigation into ScotRail's running of the Edinburgh to Glasgow express. The company should be renamed snail rail, and the service should be renamed the sardine express, such is the lack of carriages and seating. I hope that the matter is addressed seriously. The commuters who used to get a seat

do not any longer, such is the size of the press corps and the number of MSPs coming through from Glasgow.

When he spoke this morning, the First Minister asked for constructive dialogue and debate. I agree. For the record, it is important to highlight some of the serious weaknesses in what was presented this morning. One of those weaknesses is the lack of a quality of life bill, designed to look fundamentally at the serious poverty pervading all corners of Scotland, not just among the unemployed, but among the low-paid, students, pensioners and those who are, in modern-day parlance, socially excluded.

I find it unacceptable that the elected Scottish Parliament, whose first priority should be to tackle the scourge of poverty, is not prepared to set targets. I want to know in two, three and four years' time the progress that this Parliament has made in tackling the scourge of poverty. Whether they are simplistic targets or not, as the First Minister said this morning, we need targets to measure the success or failure of this Parliament in addressing that priority.

On the local government bill, we have to consider the detailed McIntosh report, which looks at local government from all angles, but Governments are there to govern: they should always be prepared to give political direction to committees of inquiry. We should consider the results, but also the political priorities.

The large number of members who spoke today about support for progressive taxation means that there must be a base of support in this chamber for the early abolition of the council tax in Scotland. The council tax is an acutely regressive piece of taxation. In 1988, under the old rates system, the differential between a small tenement in Govan and a large mansion in Pollokshields was 14:1—the wealthier parts of Glasgow paid 14 times more than the poorer parts. The differential today is 3:1. By any standard or measure, that is regressive taxation, so I hope that, as part of the local government bill, we will bring forward an early piece of legislation saying that we want to replace the regressive council tax with a progressive local income tax that specifically exempts our pensioners, students, disabled and unemployed and generates more income from those with the ability to pay. We would then have a differential of 10:1, rather than 3:1.

I know that I do not hold the monopoly of concern about housing, but I hope that others are as puzzled and dismayed as I am that there is not a specific housing bill. There is a serious housing problem in Scotland and the green paper, which took its final reports on 31 May, inspired some very positive responses from the City of Glasgow Council and COSLA on the creation of a national housing agency, on the channelling of public funds through one agency and on the co-ordination of planning with housing to regenerate both rural and urban communities.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C704728", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 436.0, "ContributionID": 704728, "EditedText": "Mr Sheridan—", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Sheridan—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1762E216P508C704732", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Elder, Dorothy-Grace", "ID": 1762, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 444.0, "ContributionID": 704732, "EditedText": "—and to help us on this side to institute—", "EditedTextHTML": "—and to help us on this side to institute—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C704734", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 448.0, "ContributionID": 704734, "EditedText": "I thank Dorothy for her intervention—", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank Dorothy for her intervention—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C704761", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 511.0, "ContributionID": 704761, "EditedText": "What Mr Galbraith will do remains to be seen. However, will the Deputy First Minister comment on Mr Galbraith's predecessor as education minister, Mrs Helen Liddell, who always recognised the benefit of teachers to the people of Scotland?", "EditedTextHTML": "What Mr Galbraith will do remains to be seen. However, will the Deputy First Minister comment on Mr Galbraith's predecessor as education minister, Mrs Helen Liddell, who always recognised the benefit of teachers to the people of Scotland?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1863E284P532C704742", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Cunningham, Roseanna", "ID": 1863, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Perth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Roseanna Cunningham", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Roseanna Cunningham: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 466.0, "ContributionID": 704742, "EditedText": "That is interesting.I would have liked to see a few of our proposals being announced this morning but, regrettably, they were not. There can be no objection to the principles in the two proposed bills. There will be a widespread, but not universal, welcome to an end to feudal tenure. We must all agree that that is long overdue. I recall that, during an adjournment debate in what we are now calling another place, Alex Salmond led us through what can only be described as a dismal catalogue of outrages perpetrated by the so-called raider of the lost titles. I look forward to seeing the draft bill, just as I look forward to seeing the other draft bill—the land reform bill as opposed to the bill for the abolition of feudal tenure. It might be a slight overstatement to say, as the First Minister did this morning, that there is enthusiasm for the land reform policy group's proposals. It would be fairer to say that there is resignation to the fact that, although there will be some movement, the more wide-ranging reforms are not going to take place. I am concerned that we are not approaching land reform in the way that might once have been expected. Land reform is not just a legal reform; it is also a social reform. I appreciate that issues of social reform and social justice often tend to be seen as purely urban matters, but they are not; they have a strong rural element. The proposed measures are certainly useful. No doubt a community right to buy is important. I absolutely support that, as I have supported the communities in Eigg and in Assynt, but—and this is a big but—how often will communities actually want to exercise that right? When thinking about land reform, I like to set my own test, which I call the Blackford test. It may be a little parochial, as the Blackford estate is in my constituency, but it is one of the largest estates in Scotland and perhaps one of the worst perpetrators of some of the unfortunate practices that are possible under the present system of land ownership. When I hear proposals for land reform, I always think of the Blackford estate and ask myself what those proposals would do to change the situation there. It is only 30 to 45 minutes up the road; we do not have to go right up north to the western Highlands to see some pretty atrocious examples of land management. Will the proposed legislation do anything to help? It might have prevented the period of speculation as to where and with whom the ownership of Blackford was based. Beyond that, I do not see how the legislation would make any difference. People in the community in Blackford and the surrounding area do not want to own the estate. The ability to buy the estate is neither here nor there as far as they are concerned. They have spent years watching perfectly habitable farmhouses being allowed to fall into dereliction. They are totally frustrated by that, and all they want is some input and some say in what is happening on the estate. Although I welcome what is proposed, none of it will make the slightest difference to that estate. Land reform is about more than the issues that are being addressed. The Executive may intend to tackle other aspects later in the legislative programme or in the years to come. If that is the intention, I hope to hear a word or two about it in the closing speech, which I understand will be delivered by Mr Wallace. When he replies, I would like Mr Wallace to clarify a minor point about the section of the proposal that relates to national parks where there is a reference to legislating for access. Is it the Executive's intention that the access legislation will be a stand-alone bill, or will it be subsumed by the legislation on national parks? That is an important clarification. Until now, we have always assumed that access legislation will be dealt with quite separately. In my role as shadow justice minister, I welcome the announcement of the incapable adults bill. Shorn of its most controversial clauses, it will be regarded as a long-overdue reform that is likely to gain widespread support from members. Perhaps it will even gain unanimous support—that would be a first. In the entire policy area, embracing justice, equality and land reform, there are some huge gaps and I would like them to be addressed.It is unfortunate that, as well as omitting more extensive land reform legislation, the Executive has missed the opportunity to introduce a Scottish freedom of information bill. I know that there is to be a statement on it next week, which I anticipate with interest, but how much more of a signal could we have sent out to Scotland if, as one of our first major pieces of legislation, we had done a freedom of information bill? That would have shown that this Parliament really is going to be different—particularly if the bill was more generous than its Westminster equivalent. It would have been a big legislative set piece that would have made people sit up and notice. Sadly, that is not going to happen. There are other missed areas and opportunities. There is no mainstream justice legislation. There are two areas where, I feel certain, there would have been cross-party support and therefore a speedy passage through Parliament. That must be taken into account: not all these bills will take the same amount of time to go through Parliament. Some smaller bills that would have been given speedy approval could have been introduced, so their absence is all the more puzzling. Why are there no proposals for changing both civil and criminal law to enable domestic violence to be dealt with in a speedier, more effective and more sensitive way? Why are we not addressing the problem of Scots-born but overseas-raised individuals who are convicted of serious crimes and then dumped back on Scotland without warning? There have been back-bench calls from all parties on those matters. I see the First Minister screwing his face up, but some of his own Westminster back benchers have called for action on that latter point.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is interesting.

I would have liked to see a few of our proposals being announced this morning but, regrettably, they were not. There can be no objection to the principles in the two proposed bills. There will be a widespread, but not universal, welcome to an end to feudal tenure. We must all agree that that is long overdue. I recall that, during an adjournment debate in what we are now calling another place, Alex Salmond led us through what can only be described as a dismal catalogue of outrages perpetrated by the so-called raider of the lost titles.

I look forward to seeing the draft bill, just as I look forward to seeing the other draft bill—the land reform bill as opposed to the bill for the abolition of feudal tenure. It might be a slight overstatement to say, as the First Minister did this morning, that there is enthusiasm for the land reform policy group's proposals. It would be fairer to say that there is resignation to the fact that, although there will be some movement, the more wide-ranging reforms are not going to take place.

I am concerned that we are not approaching land reform in the way that might once have been expected. Land reform is not just a legal reform; it is also a social reform. I appreciate that issues of social reform and social justice often tend to be seen as purely urban matters, but they are not; they have a strong rural element.

The proposed measures are certainly useful. No doubt a community right to buy is important. I absolutely support that, as I have supported the communities in Eigg and in Assynt, but—and this is a big but—how often will communities actually want to exercise that right? When thinking about land reform, I like to set my own test, which I call the Blackford test. It may be a little parochial, as the Blackford estate is in my constituency, but it is one of the largest estates in Scotland and perhaps one of the worst perpetrators of some of the unfortunate practices that are possible under the present system of land ownership.

When I hear proposals for land reform, I always think of the Blackford estate and ask myself what those proposals would do to change the situation there. It is only 30 to 45 minutes up the road; we do not have to go right up north to the western Highlands to see some pretty atrocious examples of land management. Will the proposed legislation do anything to help? It might have prevented the period of speculation as to where and with whom the ownership of Blackford was based. Beyond that, I do not see how the legislation would make any difference. People in the community in Blackford and the surrounding area do not want to own the estate. The ability to buy the estate is neither here nor there as far as they are concerned. They have spent years watching perfectly habitable farmhouses being allowed to fall into dereliction. They are totally frustrated by that, and all they want is some input and some say in what is happening on the estate. Although I welcome what is proposed, none of it will make the slightest difference to that estate.

Land reform is about more than the issues that are being addressed. The Executive may intend to tackle other aspects later in the legislative programme or in the years to come. If that is the intention, I hope to hear a word or two about it in the closing speech, which I understand will be delivered by Mr Wallace.

When he replies, I would like Mr Wallace to clarify a minor point about the section of the proposal that relates to national parks where there is a reference to legislating for access. Is it the Executive's intention that the access legislation will be a stand-alone bill, or will it be subsumed by the legislation on national parks? That is an important clarification. Until now, we have always assumed that access legislation will be dealt with quite separately.

In my role as shadow justice minister, I welcome the announcement of the incapable adults bill. Shorn of its most controversial clauses, it will be regarded as a long-overdue reform that is likely to gain widespread support from members. Perhaps it will even gain unanimous support—that would be a first. In the entire policy area, embracing justice, equality and land reform, there are some

huge gaps and I would like them to be addressed.

It is unfortunate that, as well as omitting more extensive land reform legislation, the Executive has missed the opportunity to introduce a Scottish freedom of information bill. I know that there is to be a statement on it next week, which I anticipate with interest, but how much more of a signal could we have sent out to Scotland if, as one of our first major pieces of legislation, we had done a freedom of information bill? That would have shown that this Parliament really is going to be different—particularly if the bill was more generous than its Westminster equivalent. It would have been a big legislative set piece that would have made people sit up and notice. Sadly, that is not going to happen.

There are other missed areas and opportunities. There is no mainstream justice legislation. There are two areas where, I feel certain, there would have been cross-party support and therefore a speedy passage through Parliament. That must be taken into account: not all these bills will take the same amount of time to go through Parliament. Some smaller bills that would have been given speedy approval could have been introduced, so their absence is all the more puzzling. Why are there no proposals for changing both civil and criminal law to enable domestic violence to be dealt with in a speedier, more effective and more sensitive way? Why are we not addressing the problem of Scots-born but overseas-raised individuals who are convicted of serious crimes and then dumped back on Scotland without warning? There have been back-bench calls from all parties on those matters. I see the First Minister screwing his face up, but some of his own Westminster back benchers have called for action on that latter point.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1863E284P532C704744", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Cunningham, Roseanna", "ID": 1863, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Perth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Roseanna Cunningham", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Roseanna Cunningham: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 470.0, "ContributionID": 704744, "EditedText": "I will not take an intervention. I am sorry; the Presiding Officer has already indicated that I must wind up. My final comment is triggered by the First Minister's reference to Westminster legislation. Among the many things that have bedevilled Scotland's justice system is the fact that important changes are made in civil or criminal law by tacking on odd clauses from what is essentially English and Welsh legislation, or by stuffing a series of unrelated measures higgledy-piggledy into a so-called law reform (miscellaneous provisions) (Scotland) bill. I hope that we will see the end of the latter practice, but I am concerned about the continuation of the former one. It is happening even now, and I seek an assurance that it will be well and truly seen off.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will not take an intervention. I am sorry; the Presiding Officer has already indicated that I must wind up.

My final comment is triggered by the First Minister's reference to Westminster legislation. Among the many things that have bedevilled Scotland's justice system is the fact that important changes are made in civil or criminal law by tacking on odd clauses from what is essentially English and Welsh legislation, or by stuffing a series of unrelated measures higgledy-piggledy into a so-called law reform (miscellaneous provisions) (Scotland) bill. I hope that we will see the end of the latter practice, but I am concerned about the continuation of the former one. It is happening even now, and I seek an assurance that it will be well and truly seen off.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1873E89P171C704746", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jackson, Dr Sylvia", "ID": 1873, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Stirling" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sylvia Jackson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Sylvia Jackson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 475.0, "ContributionID": 704746, "EditedText": "Is not the amount of funding that has been given to St Mary's equal to all that given by Stirling Council to all the other schools in its area? That may be why there is a big waiting list for the school.", "EditedTextHTML": "Is not the amount of funding that has been given to St Mary's equal to all that given by Stirling Council to all the other schools in its area? That may be why there is a big waiting list for the school.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1888E265P358C704750", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morgan, Alasdair", "ID": 1888, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Galloway and Upper Nithsdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morgan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alasdair Morgan (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 485.0, "ContributionID": 704750, "EditedText": "In his statement, the First Minister talked about Westminster legislating on devolved matters, which we have already discussed in this chamber. He said that Westminster will legislate on devolved subjects only if consent has specifically been given after due process. What, precisely, is meant by due process? What arrangements are foreseen in this Parliament for that due process? Who will give the consent, the Administration or the Parliament as a whole? How specific will the consent be? Will it simply be to the long title of the bill, or will it be to the detail? If it is the latter—this is a point that I have raised already—what will happen if the bill is then amended substantially at Westminster? When we discussed this matter previously, I referred to this chamber's ability to repeal Westminster legislation and suggested that some inertia might be involved. The problem is not just inertia. One problem centres on the ability of anyone other than the Executive to introduce a bill that might be considered by this chamber. Does the minister foresee any mechanism whereby members other than those in the Administration might seek to repeal parts of an act on a devolved area that has been passed at Westminster? We should have a convention between the two parliaments that says that what has been devolved should stay devolved. Rural areas are represented significantly in this Parliament. That is quite right as rural areas are more important, proportionally, to Scotland than they are to the rest of the United Kingdom. Earlier today, it seemed as if we were going to get a National Farmers Union of Scotland debate. Every part of the Executive's programme impacts on rural areas—education, housing, social work and transport. They affect rural areas in a special way because of the special circumstances of those areas. I welcome the establishment of a rural affairs ministry, but we will have to be careful—I hope that we will get reassurances on this—that it is not just a new portmanteau title for the old ag and fish department. The ministry must go wider, and be an overarching department that is consulted by, and gets involved with the work of, all other departments that take decisions that affect rural areas. Rural areas will be disappointed by the lack of reference to their needs in the First Minister's statement. They will be disappointed by the lack of reference to transport, housing, education, economic development, poverty and social exclusion—which are equally, if not more, important for rural areas—and, of course, agriculture. At the election, the Labour party said that it wanted to be a party of all Scotland and that it would not be confined to its urban strongholds. On the basis of today's statement, the Labour party has yet to live up to those words for rural Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "In his statement, the First Minister talked about Westminster legislating on devolved matters, which we have already discussed in this chamber. He said that Westminster will legislate on devolved subjects only if consent has specifically been given after due process. What, precisely, is meant by due process? What arrangements are foreseen in this Parliament for that due process? Who will give the consent, the Administration or the Parliament as a whole? How specific will the consent be? Will it simply be to the long title of the bill, or will it be to the detail? If it is the latter—this is a point that I have raised already—what will happen if the bill is then amended substantially at Westminster?

When we discussed this matter previously, I referred to this chamber's ability to repeal Westminster legislation and suggested that some inertia might be involved. The problem is not just inertia. One problem centres on the ability of anyone other than the Executive to introduce a bill that might be considered by this chamber. Does the minister foresee any mechanism whereby members other than those in the Administration might seek to repeal parts of an act on a devolved area that has been passed at Westminster? We should have a convention between the two parliaments that says that what has been devolved should stay devolved.

Rural areas are represented significantly in this Parliament. That is quite right as rural areas are more important, proportionally, to Scotland than they are to the rest of the United Kingdom. Earlier today, it seemed as if we were going to get a National Farmers Union of Scotland debate. Every part of the Executive's programme impacts on rural areas—education, housing, social work and transport. They affect rural areas in a special way because of the special circumstances of those areas.

I welcome the establishment of a rural affairs ministry, but we will have to be careful—I hope that we will get reassurances on this—that it is not just a new portmanteau title for the old ag and fish department. The ministry must go wider, and be an overarching department that is consulted by, and gets involved with the work of, all other departments that take decisions that affect rural areas. Rural areas will be disappointed by the lack of reference to their needs in the First Minister's statement. They will be disappointed by the lack of reference to transport, housing, education, economic development, poverty and social exclusion—which are equally, if not more, important for rural areas—and, of course, agriculture.

At the election, the Labour party said that it wanted to be a party of all Scotland and that it would not be confined to its urban strongholds. On the basis of today's statement, the Labour party has yet to live up to those words for rural Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4672278+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1888E265P358C704753", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morgan, Alasdair", "ID": 1888, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Galloway and Upper Nithsdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morgan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alasdair Morgan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 493.0, "ContributionID": 704753, "EditedText": "The regulations to which the member refers are nearly all related to matters that are not devolved to this Parliament. Would he prefer that they were?", "EditedTextHTML": "The regulations to which the member refers are nearly all related to matters that are not devolved to this Parliament. Would he prefer that they were?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4672278+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C704755", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 497.0, "ContributionID": 704755, "EditedText": "You have another three minutes.", "EditedTextHTML": "You have another three minutes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4672278+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C704762", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 513.0, "ContributionID": 704762, "EditedText": "Mr Salmond is encouraging me to go down the road of banter that was all too common at Westminster. I am content that Mr Galbraith and the Executive as a whole value the contribution that teachers make—and will continue to make—to our young people's education. There will be considerable debate about the contents of the bills. If I do not manage to answer every point that has been raised—which would be impossible—there will be plenty of opportunity to address those points in the future. As an Executive, we are committed to consultation and to the examination and scrutiny of bills, as was foreshadowed in the consultative steering group report and endorsed in a debate last week. Some members spoke about the proposals for national parks. There was some concern about how those proposals would affect people who lived in potential national park sites. I want to make it clear that the thrust of our proposals is to ensure the integrated management of rural development in those areas and to take full account of the need for sustainable communities as well as for sustainable development. On the subject of transport, Mr Raffan, Mr McLetchie and—I think—Mr MacAskill asked whether the money raised from road charging and other levies would be used to fund public transport. A section in the partnership agreement states: \"We will legislate to allow road user charging where it is sensible to do so. We will enable local authorities to levy charges on parking at the workplace. The proceeds will be used to invest in transport.\"", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Salmond is encouraging me to go down the road of banter that was all too

common at Westminster. I am content that Mr Galbraith and the Executive as a whole value the contribution that teachers make—and will continue to make—to our young people's education.

There will be considerable debate about the contents of the bills. If I do not manage to answer every point that has been raised—which would be impossible—there will be plenty of opportunity to address those points in the future. As an Executive, we are committed to consultation and to the examination and scrutiny of bills, as was foreshadowed in the consultative steering group report and endorsed in a debate last week.

Some members spoke about the proposals for national parks. There was some concern about how those proposals would affect people who lived in potential national park sites. I want to make it clear that the thrust of our proposals is to ensure the integrated management of rural development in those areas and to take full account of the need for sustainable communities as well as for sustainable development.

On the subject of transport, Mr Raffan, Mr McLetchie and—I think—Mr MacAskill asked whether the money raised from road charging and other levies would be used to fund public transport. A section in the partnership agreement states:

\"We will legislate to allow road user charging where it is sensible to do so. We will enable local authorities to levy charges on parking at the workplace. The proceeds will be used to invest in transport.\"

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4672278+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C704774", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Job Losses (Dumfries and Galloway)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26620, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 521.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 521.0, "ID": 26620, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 538.0, "ContributionID": 704774, "EditedText": "Yes, and bar mitzvahs no doubt. Mr McLeish will focus strongly on the need for jobs of the whole of Scotland and on the particular needs of the south of Scotland, in many areas of which there is, unfortunately, a cycle of decline. Job losses lead to job losses and to a feeling that such things cannot be reversed, which leads to an outflow of population. I hope that all the members for South of Scotland will concentrate on the issue of not only saving jobs but creating them and on finding new ways in which to attract new jobs and to find indigenous industries to bring in jobs. That is this Parliament's job. I welcome Mr Mundell's initiative and look forward to the minister's response.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes, and bar mitzvahs no doubt. Mr McLeish will focus strongly on the need for jobs of the whole of Scotland and on the particular needs of the south of Scotland, in many areas of which there is, unfortunately, a cycle of decline. Job losses lead to job losses and to a feeling that such things cannot be reversed, which leads to an outflow of population.

I hope that all the members for South of Scotland will concentrate on the issue of not only saving jobs but creating them and on finding new ways in which to attract new jobs and to find indigenous industries to bring in jobs. That is this Parliament's job. I welcome Mr Mundell's initiative and look forward to the minister's response.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4672278+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C704772", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Job Losses (Dumfries and Galloway)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26620, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 521.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 521.0, "ID": 26620, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell (South of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 534.0, "ContributionID": 704772, "EditedText": "I congratulate Mr Mundell on securing this debate. One of the most important parts of debating in this chamber will be the debates under rule 5.6(c), in which members can express concerns from their area and receive assurance, which I am sure that there will be, and possibly even promises of action from the relevant minister. We look forward to that. I also want to commend Dr Elaine Murray, who has already taken a useful initiative by inviting members for South of Scotland to meet from time to time to discuss issues. I have been slightly tardy in replying to her, but have done so now and hope that she will take the lead in convening the first of those meetings. The members from the Scottish National party will be happy to attend them and to find a consensual way of addressing the problems in the south of Scotland as far as we can. Mr Mundell is right to say that when one talks about rural deprivation, as with land reform and other matters, the emphasis is always on the Highlands. All of us who know the south of Scotland know that there are many problems there that are similar to or more grave than the problems in the Highlands and Islands—an area that I know well—but which receive little direct attention. However, we must not take a simplistic view of any region of Scotland. Alex Johnstone talked earlier about there being a stark difference between rural and urban Scotland. That stark difference does not really exist. There are certainly different problems in rural, urban and small-town Scotland, but they are all problems to do with people. Often they are to do with how people earn their living and how they can continue to live and work in the area that they choose or in which they were born. We must find a way to address that issue. It will be a major job for this Parliament in the next four years. There must be concern, but also action. Mr Mundell has put together concern with a requirement and a request for action. This Parliament will be better served, because it will focus more closely on the regions of Scotland. Certainly, the fight in the south of Scotland will be helped immensely by the fact that the Government's professional mummers, Mr Brian Wilson and Lord Macdonald, who were always on hand to mourn at the funeral of jobs in the south of Scotland, are no longer with us. Mr McLeish, who will be, I am sure, of a much jollier countenance—", "EditedTextHTML": "I congratulate Mr Mundell on securing this debate. One of the most important parts of debating in this chamber will be the debates under rule 5.6(c), in which members can express concerns from their area and receive assurance, which I am sure that there will be, and possibly even promises of action from the relevant minister. We look forward to that.

I also want to commend Dr Elaine Murray, who has already taken a useful initiative by inviting members for South of Scotland to meet from time to time to discuss issues. I have been slightly tardy in replying to her, but have done so now and hope that she will take the lead in convening the first of those meetings. The members from the Scottish National party will be happy to attend them and to find a consensual way of addressing the problems in the south of Scotland as far as we can.

Mr Mundell is right to say that when one talks about rural deprivation, as with land reform and other matters, the emphasis is always on the Highlands. All of us who know the south of Scotland know that there are many problems there that are similar to or more grave than the problems in the Highlands and Islands—an area that I know well—but which receive little direct attention.

However, we must not take a simplistic view of any region of Scotland. Alex Johnstone talked earlier about there being a stark difference between rural and urban Scotland. That stark difference does not really exist. There are certainly different problems in rural, urban and small-town Scotland, but they are all problems to do with people. Often they are to do with how people earn their living and how they can continue to live and work in the area that they choose or in which they were born. We must find a way to address that issue. It will be a major job for this Parliament in the next four years.

There must be concern, but also action. Mr Mundell has put together concern with a requirement and a request for action. This Parliament will be better served, because it will focus more closely on the regions of Scotland. Certainly, the fight in the south of Scotland will be helped immensely by the fact that the Government's professional mummers, Mr Brian Wilson and Lord Macdonald, who were always on hand to mourn at the funeral of jobs in the south of Scotland, are no longer with us. Mr McLeish, who will be, I am sure, of a much jollier countenance—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4672278+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C704773", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Job Losses (Dumfries and Galloway)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26620, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 521.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 521.0, "ID": 26620, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning (Henry McLeish): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 536.0, "ContributionID": 704773, "EditedText": "I will attend a few weddings.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will attend a few weddings.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4672278+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C704778", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Job Losses (Dumfries and Galloway)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26620, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 521.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 521.0, "ID": 26620, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 547.0, "ContributionID": 704778, "EditedText": "I now call Ian Jenkins, and ask him to keep his speech short.", "EditedTextHTML": "I now call Ian Jenkins, and ask him to keep his speech short.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4672278+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1892E34P73C704780", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Job Losses (Dumfries and Galloway)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26620, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 521.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 521.0, "ID": 26620, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Fergusson, Alex", "ID": 1892, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Fergusson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Fergusson (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 553.0, "ContributionID": 704780, "EditedText": "I will preface my remarks by acknowledging the letter from Mr McLeish that conveniently arrived on my desk at about quarter past two. I acknowledge the £1 million for Dumfries and Galloway's enterprise action plan for 1998-99 and the £2.4 million for the 1999-2000 action plan, but question how much of that money will end up as consultancy fees, feasibility studies and jobs for the boys, rather than jobs for the men and women who need them. David Mundell described the serious situation in Dumfries and Galloway. While I agree that we must not talk the area down, there are underlying problems with the agriculture and forestry industries, which account for a staggering 30 per cent of the region's gross domestic product. That is a stunningly high level of dependency in anybody's language and the Scottish Agricultural College has projected that there will be 1,700 job losses over three years. The crucial importance of those two basic rural industries is clear to all and the SAC report shows how much the agricultural situation has worsened during the year. Parliament will not want to hear, nor have I time to give, all the facts and figures that are available to illustrate the demise of agri-forestry, so I will confine myself to a mere two facts. They are stark and sobering. First, in 1996, total farm income in Scotland was £546 million. In 1998, it was £187 million. I still have trouble getting used to the second fact, which is that it is cheaper to import fencing posts from Latvia than it is to manufacture them in Scotland. That is why 1,700 jobs are at risk in south-west Scotland. Not just farmers' or farm workers' jobs are at stake; the jobs of shop assistants, drainers, fencers, sales reps, forestry workers and saw mill workers—the myriad of jobs that agriculture and forestry help to sustain—are at stake. Entire rural communities are under the severest of threats because of the decline in those most rural of industries. What can this Parliament do? I strongly maintain that, within the European Union, the Scottish farmer will take lessons from no one on production efficiency. However, perhaps we have lessons to learn in marketing. I hope that the Parliament will be able to promote the benefits of co-operation and co-operative marketing as one positive way of improving agriculture's lot. I have no doubt that one role of this Scottish Parliament will be to promote Scotland and all things Scottish. I believe strongly that as part of that role the Executive, in conjunction with local authorities and enterprise companies, should work to encourage the further manufacturing of a region's primary produce, so that the region may gain substantially from the added value and increased economic input that rural communities so desperately require. There is already a deeply held scepticism in many rural areas about whether this Parliament will be of much benefit to them, and I am afraid that the legislative programme that was set out this morning will have done little to alleviate it. We must unite across the parties to set our parliamentary sights on regenerating the rural areas of Scotland. That is the only way in which this Parliament will be deemed a success. Indeed, it is on that that the oft-mentioned but seldom- witnessed new politics will be judged in rural Scotland. I support totally the call for an Executive-led task force and strenuous backing for the region's efforts to obtain objective 2 funding. In short, I fully support the motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will preface my remarks by acknowledging the letter from Mr McLeish that conveniently arrived on my desk at about quarter past two. I acknowledge the £1 million for Dumfries and Galloway's enterprise action plan for 1998-99 and the £2.4 million for the 1999-2000 action plan, but question how much of that money will end up as consultancy fees, feasibility studies and jobs for the boys, rather than jobs for the men and women who need them.

David Mundell described the serious situation in Dumfries and Galloway. While I agree that we must not talk the area down, there are underlying problems with the agriculture and forestry industries, which account for a staggering 30 per cent of the region's gross domestic product. That is a stunningly high level of dependency in anybody's language and the Scottish Agricultural College has projected that there will be 1,700 job losses over three years. The crucial importance of those two basic rural industries is clear to all and the SAC report shows how much the agricultural situation has worsened during the year.

Parliament will not want to hear, nor have I time to give, all the facts and figures that are available to illustrate the demise of agri-forestry, so I will confine myself to a mere two facts. They are stark and sobering. First, in 1996, total farm income in Scotland was £546 million. In 1998, it was £187 million. I still have trouble getting used to the second fact, which is that it is cheaper to import fencing posts from Latvia than it is to manufacture them in Scotland.

That is why 1,700 jobs are at risk in south-west Scotland. Not just farmers' or farm workers' jobs are at stake; the jobs of shop assistants, drainers, fencers, sales reps, forestry workers and saw mill workers—the myriad of jobs that agriculture and forestry help to sustain—are at stake. Entire rural communities are under the severest of threats because of the decline in those most rural of industries.

What can this Parliament do? I strongly maintain that, within the European Union, the Scottish farmer will take lessons from no one on production efficiency. However, perhaps we have lessons to learn in marketing. I hope that the Parliament will be able to promote the benefits of co-operation and co-operative marketing as one positive way of improving agriculture's lot.

I have no doubt that one role of this Scottish Parliament will be to promote Scotland and all things Scottish. I believe strongly that as part of that role the Executive, in conjunction with local authorities and enterprise companies, should work to encourage the further manufacturing of a region's primary produce, so that the region may gain substantially from the added value and increased economic input that rural communities so desperately require.

There is already a deeply held scepticism in many rural areas about whether this Parliament will be of much benefit to them, and I am afraid that the legislative programme that was set out this morning will have done little to alleviate it. We must unite across the parties to set our parliamentary sights on regenerating the rural areas of Scotland. That is the only way in which this Parliament will be deemed a success. Indeed, it is on that that the oft-mentioned but seldom- witnessed new politics will be judged in rural Scotland.

I support totally the call for an Executive-led task force and strenuous backing for the region's efforts to obtain objective 2 funding. In short, I fully support the motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4672278+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C704782", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Job Losses (Dumfries and Galloway)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26620, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 521.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 521.0, "ID": 26620, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 558.0, "ContributionID": 704782, "EditedText": "My apologies go to Mr Robson and Mr Gallie, who wished to speak but who have, unfortunately, been beaten by the clock. I call Mr McLeish to wind up the debate.", "EditedTextHTML": "My apologies go to Mr Robson and Mr Gallie, who wished to speak but who have, unfortunately, been beaten by the clock. I call Mr McLeish to wind up the debate.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4672278+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C704785", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Job Losses (Dumfries and Galloway)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26620, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 521.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 521.0, "ID": 26620, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 565.0, "ContributionID": 704785, "EditedText": "This is a timed debate and the magic hour of half-past 5 is almost with us, but I will arrange for such information to be brought to the attention of members through the Presiding Officer.", "EditedTextHTML": "This is a timed debate and the magic hour of half-past 5 is almost with us, but I will arrange for such information to be brought to the attention of members through the Presiding Officer.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4672278+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704786", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Job Losses (Dumfries and Galloway)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26620, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 521.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 521.0, "ID": 26620, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 567.0, "ContributionID": 704786, "EditedText": "Meeting closed at 17:29.", "EditedTextHTML": "Meeting closed at 17:29.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4672278+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2110E214P424C704607", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gibson, Kenneth", "ID": 2110, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenneth Gibson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Gibson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 175.0, "ContributionID": 704607, "EditedText": "Can Hugh Henry name the council or the councillor? As he is not prepared to name a councillor or any council, I will continue. Under the principle of subsidiarity, each council should be free to establish its own code of conduct, albeit within a national framework in consultation with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities and other interested parties. We are keen to know whether the bill will cover quangos—whether quangos will be subject to the same rigorous scrutiny as councils and councillors—and whether it will allow for a register of senior staff interests, including political interests. Through COSLA, local government has produced the document, \"A Local Government Contract for Scotland\". It is regrettable that that was not touched on in the First Minister's statement. We were not aware that the McIntosh commission would be debated before the recess. It would have been helpful if the First Minister had indicated his commitment to the McIntosh commission, particularly as new Labour made no submission to either consultation document. We realise that the First Minister's statement was only a broad outline, that we are all here for the long haul and that Rome was not built in a day. However, in his starting line-up the First Minister could have clarified the Executive's plans to undertake a comprehensive review of local government finance; end challenge funding and annual bidding; extend rather than erode the number of services that are under democratic control; secure proportional representation in local government; introduce a power of general competence for local government; impose cabinets on local government; and return water to local authority control. We are pleased that the Executive wishes to enhance the reputation of local government and is committed to high standards in local government. We will work constructively with the Executive to achieve that aim.", "EditedTextHTML": "Can Hugh Henry name the council or the councillor? As he is not prepared to name a councillor or any council, I will continue.

Under the principle of subsidiarity, each council should be free to establish its own code of conduct, albeit within a national framework in consultation with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities and other interested parties.

We are keen to know whether the bill will cover quangos—whether quangos will be subject to the same rigorous scrutiny as councils and councillors—and whether it will allow for a register of senior staff interests, including political interests. Through COSLA, local government has produced the document, \"A Local Government Contract for Scotland\". It is regrettable that that was not touched on in the First Minister's statement.

We were not aware that the McIntosh commission would be debated before the recess.

It would have been helpful if the First Minister had indicated his commitment to the McIntosh commission, particularly as new Labour made no submission to either consultation document.

We realise that the First Minister's statement was only a broad outline, that we are all here for the long haul and that Rome was not built in a day. However, in his starting line-up the First Minister could have clarified the Executive's plans to undertake a comprehensive review of local government finance; end challenge funding and annual bidding; extend rather than erode the number of services that are under democratic control; secure proportional representation in local government; introduce a power of general competence for local government; impose cabinets on local government; and return water to local authority control.

We are pleased that the Executive wishes to enhance the reputation of local government and is committed to high standards in local government. We will work constructively with the Executive to achieve that aim.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:02:32.7857179+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C704526", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26618, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26618, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 4.0, "ContributionID": 704526, "EditedText": "The first item of business this morning is the consideration of a business motion from the Parliamentary Bureau, setting out a revised business programme. As there is no amendment to this motion, the debate will be restricted to 10 minutes, with one speaker for the motion and one against. Before Tom McCabe moves the motion, will anyone who wishes to speak against the motion please press the request button now.", "EditedTextHTML": "The first item of business this morning is the consideration of a business motion from the Parliamentary Bureau, setting out a revised business programme. As there is no amendment to this motion, the debate will be restricted to 10 minutes, with one speaker for the motion and one against. Before Tom McCabe moves the motion, will anyone who wishes to speak against the motion please press the request button now.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C704527", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26618, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26618, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan (Falkirk West): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 6.0, "ContributionID": 704527, "EditedText": "On a point of order, Mr Presiding Officer. Last Wednesday, the Parliament decided unanimously to meet today at 2.30 pm. Since then, the Parliamentary Bureau seems to have changed that decision so that we meet at 9.30 am. I have no objection in principle to meeting in the morning, provided that we are given adequate notice. The business bureau seems to keep chopping and changing the agenda and the timetable, and I wonder if you could use your good offices to ensure that all of us, including those of us who are not represented on the mystical business bureau, are informed officially and punctually about any changes to the agenda and the timetable. The Presiding Officer: I remember that you raised the same point of order last week. In fairness, I must point out that, when the business motion was moved last week, notice was given that this change would be made—those who were present in the chamber heard that announcement. We are still trying to accommodate business; for example, there was a general wish to have a debate on Holyrood, and it was made clear last week that the Parliament would meet this morning.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order, Mr Presiding Officer. Last Wednesday, the Parliament decided unanimously to meet today at

2.30 pm. Since then, the Parliamentary Bureau seems to have changed that decision so that we meet at 9.30 am. I have no objection in principle to meeting in the morning, provided that we are given adequate notice. The business bureau seems to keep chopping and changing the agenda and the timetable, and I wonder if you could use your good offices to ensure that all of us, including those of us who are not represented on the mystical business bureau, are informed officially and punctually about any changes to the agenda and the timetable. The Presiding Officer: I remember that you raised the same point of order last week. In fairness, I must point out that, when the business motion was moved last week, notice was given that this change would be made—those who were present in the chamber heard that announcement. We are still trying to accommodate business; for example, there was a general wish to have a debate on Holyrood, and it was made clear last week that the Parliament would meet this morning.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2228E151P202C704528", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26618, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26618, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McCabe, Tom", "ID": 2228, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Tom McCabe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Parliament (Mr Tom McCabe): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 9.0, "ContributionID": 704528, "EditedText": "The motion before the Parliament today is in recognition of the need to allow members the opportunity to express a view on their Parliament. I explained when I moved the business motion last week that I would come forward on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau with an amendment to the business programme proposed for this week. I will say a few words tomorrow on some of the changes about which Mr Canavan has expressed concern and on some of the reasons for those changes. I am here on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau—it is unfortunate to hear it described as mythical.", "EditedTextHTML": "The motion before the Parliament today is in recognition of the need to allow members the opportunity to express a view on their Parliament. I explained when I moved the business motion last week that I would come forward on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau with an amendment to the business programme proposed for this week.

I will say a few words tomorrow on some of the changes about which Mr Canavan has expressed concern and on some of the reasons for those changes. I am here on behalf of the Parliamentary

Bureau—it is unfortunate to hear it described as mythical.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2228E151P202C704530", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26618, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26618, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McCabe, Tom", "ID": 2228, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Tom McCabe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McCabe: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 13.0, "ContributionID": 704530, "EditedText": "There is nothing mystical about it. You made the point yourself, Mr Presiding Officer, that the chamber was informed last week of the changes that would be proposed this morning. I can confirm that it has been agreed, subject to the Parliament agreeing to the motion, that the business for the remainder of this week will be as follows. Today, the First Minister will make a statement on the Executive's legislative proposals and priorities. The remainder of today's business will be a debate on that statement. On conclusion of the debate, there will be a debate on the subject of David Mundell's motion on employment in Dumfries and Galloway. Tomorrow's business will commence at 10.30 am with a debate on the First Minister's motion on the Holyrood project. That will be followed, before lunchtime, by the business motion setting out the business for the next two weeks. The business for tomorrow afternoon will be as set out in the motion agreed to by the Parliament last week. At 2.30 pm, we will have oral questions, followed by a debate on the Deputy First Minister's motion on tuition fees. The Parliament will also be asked to agree to a motion setting out the membership of committees and the party from which the convener of each committee should be appointed. I move,That the Parliament agrees the following amendment to the Business Motion agreed by the Parliament on 9 June— Wednesday 16 June 19999.30 am Business Motion followed by Statement by the First Minister and debate on the Executive's legislative proposals 2.30 pm Continuation of debate on proposed legislative programme 5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business Debate on the subject of motion S1M-42 in the name of David Mundell Thursday 17 June 199910.30 am Debate on Holyrood Project 12.20 pm Business Motion The remaining business is as set out in the Business Motion of 9 June.", "EditedTextHTML": "There is nothing mystical about it. You made the point yourself, Mr Presiding Officer, that the chamber was informed last week of the changes that would be proposed this morning.

I can confirm that it has been agreed, subject to the Parliament agreeing to the motion, that the business for the remainder of this week will be as follows. Today, the First Minister will make a statement on the Executive's legislative proposals and priorities. The remainder of today's business will be a debate on that statement. On conclusion of the debate, there will be a debate on the subject of David Mundell's motion on employment in Dumfries and Galloway.

Tomorrow's business will commence at 10.30 am with a debate on the First Minister's motion on the Holyrood project. That will be followed, before lunchtime, by the business motion setting out the business for the next two weeks. The business for tomorrow afternoon will be as set out in the motion agreed to by the Parliament last week. At 2.30 pm, we will have oral questions, followed by a debate on the Deputy First Minister's motion on tuition fees. The Parliament will also be asked to agree to a motion setting out the membership of committees and the party from which the convener of each committee should be appointed.

I move,

That the Parliament agrees the following amendment to the Business Motion agreed by the Parliament on 9 June—

Wednesday 16 June 1999

9.30 am Business Motion followed by Statement by the First Minister and debate on the Executive's legislative proposals

2.30 pm Continuation of debate on proposed legislative programme 5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members' Business

Debate on the subject of motion S1M-42 in the name of David Mundell

Thursday 17 June 1999

10.30 am Debate on Holyrood Project 12.20 pm Business Motion The remaining business is as set out in the Business Motion of 9 June.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C704533", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 19.0, "ContributionID": 704533, "EditedText": "The next item of business is a statement by the First Minister on the Executive's legislative proposals. The First Minister will take questions at the end of his statement for about 20 minutes, during which there should be no interventions. Following those questions, we will move on to a debate on the Executive's proposals. It might help the chamber if I say that those who wish to ask questions should press their buttons during the statement. Those who wish to speak in the debate should wait until the question period is over.", "EditedTextHTML": "The next item of business is a statement by the First Minister on the Executive's legislative proposals. The First Minister will take questions at the end of his statement for about 20 minutes, during which there should be no interventions. Following those questions, we will move on to a debate on the Executive's proposals. It might help the chamber if I say that those who wish to ask questions should press their buttons during the statement. Those who wish to speak in the debate should wait until the question period is over.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C704534", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister (Donald Dewar): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 22.0, "ContributionID": 704534, "EditedText": "With your leave, Mr Presiding Officer, I would like to make a statement on the Executive's first legislative programme. We have travelled a long road to get here. There have been significant milestones on the way from the constitutional convention to the reality of this, Scotland's Parliament. The driving force has been the Labour Government that was elected in 1997; a Government that put Scotland's Parliament at the forefront of its legislative programme and that kept faith with the people. Today, we reach another milestone. For the first time, a programme of legislation for Scotland will be laid before a democratically elected Parliament in Scotland. We are a young Parliament. We have not yet taken up our formal powers. Much of our talk to date has been, of necessity, about how we work as a Parliament as much as about what we do as a Parliament. People ask when the Parliament will begin to make a difference. Today, we begin to answer that question. In a minute, I shall say more about the bills that we shall introduce, but as a parliamentarian and as someone who serves in this Parliament, I want first to say something about our law-making powers. Let us not underestimate the scope and range of powers available to this Parliament. There will be exceptional and limited circumstances in which it is sensible and proper that the Westminster Parliament legislates in devolved areas of responsibility, but that can happen only with the consent of this Parliament—consent specifically given after due process. Day in, day out, it is here that the law of the land will be shaped and laid down. This Parliament is in charge of a wide sweep of domestic policy, which will touch on the lives of every man, woman and child in the land. This is fundamental, radical change. This is, in every sense, a Parliament. With that power comes responsibilities. We shall pass laws, not because we are here and must look busy, and not because someone grabs a microphone, or a megaphone, and says that something—anything—must be done. We shall act for and in the name of the people of Scotland. Already we can see one way in which the Parliament can make a difference. Under the old dispensation, we could reasonably expect to get one major piece of Scottish legislation through Westminster in a year, but today I will be giving the Parliament details of eight bills that will address matters of pressing importance to the people of Scotland in ways that meet their concerns and needs—Scottish solutions for Scottish problems. I emphasise that that is just the start; much more will follow over the lifetime of the Parliament. We are here to keep promises; we will be watched closely and be judged on the way in which we go about our business. There will inevitably be vigorous debate—so there should be—but that debate should be of serious intent; it should be aimed at improving, not wrecking. Legislation must be necessary and well prepared. Our consideration must be thorough, open and accessible. We need to understand what that means. A balance must be struck between the understandable call for quick results and the promise of genuine dialogue, proper scrutiny, and public and parliamentary involvement. That balance will be a matter of fine judgment. Members must understand—and must relay that understanding to those who watch our business— that proper scrutiny takes time. What is expected of us is sensible politics. We have, through the cross-party deliberations of the consultative steering group, created structures that will encourage consultation and necessary scrutiny, but the smartest systems will not make a cheap debate a rich debate—that is our challenge. I want to say a word on partnership. When I accepted the Parliament's nomination as First Minister, I said that I would work with those who would work with me. The evidence of that is before the Parliament. We present this legislative programme as a partnership that is committed to stable and responsible government. In a democracy, parties can and should work together where circumstances demand. This partnership is built on common objectives. The eight bills that I will set out today are the first return on that partnership. Let the test of what we do be the end product. We are working together to deliver a programme of government that will deliver for the people of Scotland; it is on that programme that we should be judged. Our aim is social justice in a prosperous Scotland—a Scotland that is a vigorous and thriving part of the global economy and in which all have the opportunity to fulfil their potential. We must celebrate our unique cultural and natural heritage. We must tackle the problems of transport and the environment. We must build strong and stable communities in a Scotland where every family can raise children in safety and decency, where affordable housing is within the reach of all, where communities are not overshadowed by the fear of crime and where communities, rural and urban, are valued. We must build an enterprise economy, making the best use of our talents and encouraging creativity and innovation. We must build a healthy nation, making our health service among the best in Europe. Above all, at the edge of the 21st century, we must build a world-class education system, unlocking opportunities for all our children. By any standards, ours is a formidable agenda. As a Parliament, we cannot accept a Scotland where 4,000 children leave school each year without formal qualifications, where heart disease and cancer have given us a mortality rate among the worst in Europe, where one third of Scottish households have below half the average UK income and where one quarter of our housing stock suffers from dampness or condensation. We can use the powers of government—the spending decisions, the policy initiatives and the power to connect, persuade, cajole, encourage, preach and lead—to change that. We can, and we shall. We shall work with the people as well as for them. We shall work with local government, other public agencies, the private and voluntary sectors and the communities of Scotland. We shall do so with new energy and new commitment. We want to make this Parliament what it can be—the democratic crucible in which we can test our ideas, seek new inspiration and stand to account on our record. Where necessary, we will invite the Parliament to use its law-making powers to change Scotland for the better. I now come to our first legislative programme. The Victorian chancellor, George Goschen, was a touch dim but he was the author of the Goschen formula—father of Barnett, as some members will know. When he first entered Parliament, he wrote to the then Prime Minister, Lord Palmerston, requesting details of the Government's legislative programme for the coming session. The great man replied: \"There is nothing to be done.\"We are not in that position. There is much to be done. We have identified eight areas in which legislation is required to ensure that we have the right, Scottish solutions to the challenges that we face. For years, indeed for generations, land reform has been an issue of fundamental concern in our rural communities and far beyond. It is an issue that has languished for want of the political will required to achieve change. There has been wide-ranging enthusiasm for the proposals developed by the land reform policy group. The measures that are proposed pose no threat to good landowners, but they will make for a better balance between the private and public interest. They are a central element of our partnership's commitment to enhance rural life. We will therefore introduce a bill for land reform. Our legislation will give new hope to, and create new opportunities for, those who have lived and laboured on the land for generations. Communities will have the right to buy, as and when the land comes on to the market. We will also legislate to create a right of responsible access to the land for recreation and for the passage of ramblers, climbers and those who simply pass through. Who could imagine such a land reform bill passing unscathed through the massed ranks of the House of Lords? This is a Scottish solution to a distinct Scottish problem and is now the responsibility of this Parliament. We will introduce a bill to abolish the feudal system of land tenure. The arcane rights of feudal superiors will be abolished; feudal superiors will no longer be able arbitrarily to enforce conditions on property and land use in which they have no defensible interest. Appropriate steps will be taken to ensure the survival of conditions that are necessary to maintain common facilities and to protect the amenity of property. The legislation will put a final stop to the abuses of the feudal system. It is a Scottish solution for a distinct Scottish need and is now the responsibility of this Parliament. We will introduce a bill to allow the creation of national parks in Scotland. Scotland's natural heritage is unique. We need to manage that natural heritage in a sustainable way, protecting it while recognising the rights of those who live and work in the countryside. National parks should be part of that policy. This will be enabling legislation. We intend that the first national park should be based on Loch Lomond and the Trossachs. Again, this is a Scottish solution to a distinct Scottish need and is now the responsibility of this Parliament. We will introduce a bill to maintain high standards in local government. I emphasise that local government is the foundation of our democracy and that its role is central to the good government of Scotland. We made it clear in the partnership document that we were committed to modernising government at all levels. As a first step, we will, as promised, introduce a bill on ethical standards in local government to establish a Scottish standards commission and a code of conduct for local government. The aim is to enhance the reputation of local government and to ensure a commitment to the highest standards. It is a Scottish solution to a distinct Scottish need and is now the responsibility of this Parliament. We will introduce an incapable adults bill. Our aim is to protect the rights and interests of those people who, for whatever reason, are incapable of managing their own affairs. Up to 100,000 people at any one time in Scotland will benefit from this legislation. There is strong support for the modernisation of the law in this area. We recognise that issues of real importance and great sensitivity are involved. There will be particular concerns and a need for detailed discussion on the medical aspects of the consultation document. We do not plan to legislate on advance directives—sometimes known as living wills—on withholding and withdrawing treatment from incapable patients or on non- therapeutic research. We will hold further consultations and, in finalising the draft bill, we will also listen with care to the views of the scrutiny committee and give weight to the outcome of its soundings of Scottish opinion. That is a Scottish solution to a distinct Scottish need and is now the responsibility of this Parliament. We will introduce a bill to address Scotland's many and diverse transport challenges. We need to tackle the environmental problems and unreliable journey times that are caused by congestion. We need to generate the resources required to deliver a transport system that will be fit for the 21st century. We need local solutions to local problems, within a coherent strategic framework. Our bill will establish a framework to enable, where sensible, road-user charging and to allow local authorities, where appropriate, to introduce a levy on workplace parking. Our bill will modernise the regulatory framework for buses, giving local authorities the ability to work for improvement through quality partnerships. It is a Scottish solution to a distinct Scottish need and is now the responsibility of this Parliament. We will introduce a bill on financial procedures and auditing. I make it clear that the bill will not authorise expenditure; separate legislation will do that. The bill will essentially be a technical measure about the machinery of this Parliament, but it will be important. It will go to the heart of the relationship between the Parliament and the Executive, putting in place the framework for the Parliament's scrutiny of the Executive's proposals, particularly on the allocation of public expenditure. This Parliament will not be one where decisions of immense financial significance pass unnoticed and unchallenged. The bill will set out the rules under which expenditure may be undertaken and the rules for dealing with the income that is received by the Executive. It will also put in place systems of audit and accountability, which will be designed to ensure that the Parliament can confirm that its financial resources have been spent in the way that was intended and to the best possible effect. It is a Scottish solution to a distinct Scottish need and is now the responsibility of this Parliament. We will introduce an education bill. Education, as I have said, is our number one priority; it will be the priority in our legislative programme. Our bill will lay a duty on local authorities to raise standards and to tackle the problems of underperforming schools. It will confirm local control of education within a national framework. It will include provisions to meet our promises on self-governing schools and pre-school education. This bill—one of the first of the new Parliament— will underwrite our commitment to raising educational standards in Scotland. It will be a Scottish solution to a distinct Scottish need and is now the responsibility of this Parliament. This legislative programme responds to the needs of the people of Scotland. It speaks for people in rural communities who have long been held back by an inequitable system of land ownership; for people in rural and urban communities who have been put upon by the antiquated burdens of feudalism; for people who live in, and those who enjoy, our areas of outstanding natural heritage; for carers who look after those people who can no longer look after themselves; for everyone who wants local government to operate to the highest standards; for everyone in our cities who is frustrated by traffic jams and everyone in rural areas who is frustrated by the lack of public transport; for everyone who wants this Parliament to manage our financial resources rigorously and efficiently; for everyone who has an interest in the education of our children; and for everyone who wants those children to leave school able and ready to make a full contribution to our society. I commend our legislative programme to this Parliament. Applause.", "EditedTextHTML": "With your leave, Mr Presiding Officer, I would like to make a statement on the Executive's first legislative programme.

We have travelled a long road to get here. There have been significant milestones on the way from the constitutional convention to the reality of this, Scotland's Parliament. The driving force has been the Labour Government that was elected in 1997; a Government that put Scotland's Parliament at the forefront of its legislative programme and that kept faith with the people. Today, we reach another milestone. For the first time, a programme of legislation for Scotland will be laid before a democratically elected Parliament in Scotland.

We are a young Parliament. We have not yet taken up our formal powers. Much of our talk to date has been, of necessity, about how we work as a Parliament as much as about what we do as a Parliament. People ask when the Parliament will begin to make a difference. Today, we begin to answer that question.

In a minute, I shall say more about the bills that we shall introduce, but as a parliamentarian and as someone who serves in this Parliament, I want first to say something about our law-making powers.

Let us not underestimate the scope and range of powers available to this Parliament. There will be exceptional and limited circumstances in which it is sensible and proper that the Westminster Parliament legislates in devolved areas of responsibility, but that can happen only with the consent of this Parliament—consent specifically given after due process.

Day in, day out, it is here that the law of the land will be shaped and laid down. This Parliament is in charge of a wide sweep of domestic policy, which will touch on the lives of every man, woman and child in the land. This is fundamental, radical change. This is, in every sense, a Parliament.

With that power comes responsibilities. We shall pass laws, not because we are here and must look busy, and not because someone grabs a microphone, or a megaphone, and says that something—anything—must be done. We shall act for and in the name of the people of Scotland.

Already we can see one way in which the Parliament can make a difference. Under the old dispensation, we could reasonably expect to get one major piece of Scottish legislation through Westminster in a year, but today I will be giving the Parliament details of eight bills that will address matters of pressing importance to the people of Scotland in ways that meet their concerns and needs—Scottish solutions for Scottish problems.

I emphasise that that is just the start; much more will follow over the lifetime of the Parliament. We are here to keep promises; we will be watched closely and be judged on the way in which we go about our business. There will inevitably be vigorous debate—so there should be—but that debate should be of serious intent; it should be aimed at improving, not wrecking. Legislation must be necessary and well prepared. Our consideration must be thorough, open and accessible.

We need to understand what that means. A balance must be struck between the understandable call for quick results and the promise of genuine dialogue, proper scrutiny, and public and parliamentary involvement. That balance will be a matter of fine judgment. Members must understand—and must relay that understanding to those who watch our business— that proper scrutiny takes time.

What is expected of us is sensible politics. We have, through the cross-party deliberations of the consultative steering group, created structures that will encourage consultation and necessary scrutiny, but the smartest systems will not make a cheap debate a rich debate—that is our challenge.

I want to say a word on partnership. When I accepted the Parliament's nomination as First Minister, I said that I would work with those who would work with me. The evidence of that is before the Parliament. We present this legislative programme as a partnership that is committed to stable and responsible government. In a democracy, parties can and should work together where circumstances demand. This partnership is built on common objectives.

The eight bills that I will set out today are the first return on that partnership. Let the test of what we do be the end product. We are working together to deliver a programme of government that will deliver for the people of Scotland; it is on that programme that we should be judged. Our

aim is social justice in a prosperous Scotland—a Scotland that is a vigorous and thriving part of the global economy and in which all have the opportunity to fulfil their potential.

We must celebrate our unique cultural and natural heritage. We must tackle the problems of transport and the environment. We must build strong and stable communities in a Scotland where every family can raise children in safety and decency, where affordable housing is within the reach of all, where communities are not overshadowed by the fear of crime and where communities, rural and urban, are valued. We must build an enterprise economy, making the best use of our talents and encouraging creativity and innovation. We must build a healthy nation, making our health service among the best in Europe. Above all, at the edge of the 21st century, we must build a world-class education system, unlocking opportunities for all our children. By any standards, ours is a formidable agenda.

As a Parliament, we cannot accept a Scotland where 4,000 children leave school each year without formal qualifications, where heart disease and cancer have given us a mortality rate among the worst in Europe, where one third of Scottish households have below half the average UK income and where one quarter of our housing stock suffers from dampness or condensation. We can use the powers of government—the spending decisions, the policy initiatives and the power to connect, persuade, cajole, encourage, preach and lead—to change that. We can, and we shall.

We shall work with the people as well as for them. We shall work with local government, other public agencies, the private and voluntary sectors and the communities of Scotland. We shall do so with new energy and new commitment. We want to make this Parliament what it can be—the democratic crucible in which we can test our ideas, seek new inspiration and stand to account on our record. Where necessary, we will invite the Parliament to use its law-making powers to change Scotland for the better.

I now come to our first legislative programme. The Victorian chancellor, George Goschen, was a touch dim but he was the author of the Goschen formula—father of Barnett, as some members will know. When he first entered Parliament, he wrote to the then Prime Minister, Lord Palmerston, requesting details of the Government's legislative programme for the coming session. The great man replied:

\"There is nothing to be done.\"

We are not in that position. There is much to be done. We have identified eight areas in which legislation is required to ensure that we have the right, Scottish solutions to the challenges that we face.

For years, indeed for generations, land reform has been an issue of fundamental concern in our rural communities and far beyond. It is an issue that has languished for want of the political will required to achieve change.

There has been wide-ranging enthusiasm for the proposals developed by the land reform policy group. The measures that are proposed pose no threat to good landowners, but they will make for a better balance between the private and public interest. They are a central element of our partnership's commitment to enhance rural life. We will therefore introduce a bill for land reform.

Our legislation will give new hope to, and create new opportunities for, those who have lived and laboured on the land for generations. Communities will have the right to buy, as and when the land comes on to the market. We will also legislate to create a right of responsible access to the land for recreation and for the passage of ramblers, climbers and those who simply pass through. Who could imagine such a land reform bill passing unscathed through the massed ranks of the House of Lords? This is a Scottish solution to a distinct Scottish problem and is now the responsibility of this Parliament.

We will introduce a bill to abolish the feudal system of land tenure. The arcane rights of feudal superiors will be abolished; feudal superiors will no longer be able arbitrarily to enforce conditions on property and land use in which they have no defensible interest. Appropriate steps will be taken to ensure the survival of conditions that are necessary to maintain common facilities and to protect the amenity of property. The legislation will put a final stop to the abuses of the feudal system. It is a Scottish solution for a distinct Scottish need and is now the responsibility of this Parliament.

We will introduce a bill to allow the creation of national parks in Scotland. Scotland's natural heritage is unique. We need to manage that natural heritage in a sustainable way, protecting it while recognising the rights of those who live and work in the countryside. National parks should be part of that policy. This will be enabling legislation. We intend that the first national park should be based on Loch Lomond and the Trossachs. Again, this is a Scottish solution to a distinct Scottish need and is now the responsibility of this Parliament.

We will introduce a bill to maintain high standards in local government. I emphasise that local government is the foundation of our democracy and that its role is central to the good government of Scotland. We made it clear in the partnership document that we were committed to modernising government at all levels. As a first

step, we will, as promised, introduce a bill on ethical standards in local government to establish a Scottish standards commission and a code of conduct for local government. The aim is to enhance the reputation of local government and to ensure a commitment to the highest standards. It is a Scottish solution to a distinct Scottish need and is now the responsibility of this Parliament.

We will introduce an incapable adults bill. Our aim is to protect the rights and interests of those people who, for whatever reason, are incapable of managing their own affairs. Up to 100,000 people at any one time in Scotland will benefit from this legislation. There is strong support for the modernisation of the law in this area.

We recognise that issues of real importance and great sensitivity are involved. There will be particular concerns and a need for detailed discussion on the medical aspects of the consultation document. We do not plan to legislate on advance directives—sometimes known as living wills—on withholding and withdrawing treatment from incapable patients or on non- therapeutic research. We will hold further consultations and, in finalising the draft bill, we will also listen with care to the views of the scrutiny committee and give weight to the outcome of its soundings of Scottish opinion. That is a Scottish solution to a distinct Scottish need and is now the responsibility of this Parliament.

We will introduce a bill to address Scotland's many and diverse transport challenges. We need to tackle the environmental problems and unreliable journey times that are caused by congestion. We need to generate the resources required to deliver a transport system that will be fit for the 21st century. We need local solutions to local problems, within a coherent strategic framework.

Our bill will establish a framework to enable, where sensible, road-user charging and to allow local authorities, where appropriate, to introduce a levy on workplace parking. Our bill will modernise the regulatory framework for buses, giving local authorities the ability to work for improvement through quality partnerships. It is a Scottish solution to a distinct Scottish need and is now the responsibility of this Parliament.

We will introduce a bill on financial procedures and auditing. I make it clear that the bill will not authorise expenditure; separate legislation will do that. The bill will essentially be a technical measure about the machinery of this Parliament, but it will be important. It will go to the heart of the relationship between the Parliament and the Executive, putting in place the framework for the Parliament's scrutiny of the Executive's proposals, particularly on the allocation of public expenditure. This Parliament will not be one where decisions of immense financial significance pass unnoticed and unchallenged.

The bill will set out the rules under which expenditure may be undertaken and the rules for dealing with the income that is received by the Executive. It will also put in place systems of audit and accountability, which will be designed to ensure that the Parliament can confirm that its financial resources have been spent in the way that was intended and to the best possible effect. It is a Scottish solution to a distinct Scottish need and is now the responsibility of this Parliament.

We will introduce an education bill. Education, as I have said, is our number one priority; it will be the priority in our legislative programme. Our bill will lay a duty on local authorities to raise standards and to tackle the problems of underperforming schools. It will confirm local control of education within a national framework. It will include provisions to meet our promises on self-governing schools and pre-school education. This bill—one of the first of the new Parliament— will underwrite our commitment to raising educational standards in Scotland. It will be a Scottish solution to a distinct Scottish need and is now the responsibility of this Parliament.

This legislative programme responds to the needs of the people of Scotland. It speaks for people in rural communities who have long been held back by an inequitable system of land ownership; for people in rural and urban communities who have been put upon by the antiquated burdens of feudalism; for people who live in, and those who enjoy, our areas of outstanding natural heritage; for carers who look after those people who can no longer look after themselves; for everyone who wants local government to operate to the highest standards; for everyone in our cities who is frustrated by traffic jams and everyone in rural areas who is frustrated by the lack of public transport; for everyone who wants this Parliament to manage our financial resources rigorously and efficiently; for everyone who has an interest in the education of our children; and for everyone who wants those children to leave school able and ready to make a full contribution to our society. I commend our legislative programme to this Parliament. [Applause.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C704536", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 26.0, "ContributionID": 704536, "EditedText": "During the election campaign, the First Minister rightly made the issues of jobs and unemployment a priority. Which of the eight bills that he outlined will lead to the creation of jobs in Scotland and how many jobs does he expect to be created?", "EditedTextHTML": "During the election campaign, the First Minister rightly made the issues of jobs and unemployment a priority.

Which of the eight bills that he outlined will lead to the creation of jobs in Scotland and how many jobs does he expect to be created?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C704537", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 28.0, "ContributionID": 704537, "EditedText": "I am sure that Mr Neil, who takes an interest in such matters, will broadly welcome the unemployment situation in Scotland. As he knows, we have the lowest unemployment benefit claimant count since—I think—1977. Thanks to Scotland's excellent record of attracting inward investment and the growing number of indigenous firms, many more jobs have been created than have been lost in the past two years. That is a strong base on which to build and it should be welcomed by everyone. As Alex Neil will also know, we are increasing public spending substantially. Our legislation depends on that investment. With that spending will come substantial growth in the construction industry and in a number of public sector employment areas. We have talked about the creation of 20,000 jobs in the next two or three years. Our legislation—part of which involves the process of improving standards in education and the creation of national parks—will have employment spin-offs, which will be important in terms of social policy. I look forward to co-operating with other parties to ensure that we get those measures through and receive the rewards in employment and in the other areas that are built into our programme.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sure that Mr Neil, who takes an interest in such matters, will broadly welcome the unemployment situation in Scotland. As he knows, we have the lowest unemployment benefit claimant count since—I think—1977. Thanks to Scotland's excellent record of attracting inward investment and the growing number of indigenous firms, many more jobs have been created than have been lost in the past two years. That is a strong base on which to build and it should be welcomed by everyone.

As Alex Neil will also know, we are increasing public spending substantially. Our legislation depends on that investment. With that spending will come substantial growth in the construction industry and in a number of public sector employment areas. We have talked about the creation of 20,000 jobs in the next two or three years. Our legislation—part of which involves the process of improving standards in education and the creation of national parks—will have employment spin-offs, which will be important in terms of social policy. I look forward to co-operating with other parties to ensure that we get those measures through and receive the rewards in employment and in the other areas that are built into our programme.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2090E83P266C704542", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAllion, Mr John", "ID": 2090, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dundee East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John McAllion", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr John McAllion (Dundee East) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 38.0, "ContributionID": 704542, "EditedText": "I thought that I was listening very carefully to the First Minister's brilliant speech—indeed, I was marking down the bills one by one as he referred to them. However, unlike Mr Neil and Mr Wilson, I counted only seven bills. Perhaps, at my age, I am starting to drop off in the middle of listening to things. Will the First Minister confirm that the programme contains a housing bill, because many people in Scotland have looked to the Parliament to deliver such a very necessary bill?", "EditedTextHTML": "I thought that I was listening very carefully to the First Minister's brilliant speech—indeed, I was marking down the bills one by one as he referred to them. However, unlike Mr Neil and Mr Wilson, I counted only seven bills. Perhaps, at my age, I am starting to drop off in the middle of listening to things. Will the First Minister confirm that the programme contains a housing bill, because many people in Scotland have looked to the Parliament to deliver such a very necessary bill?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C704547", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Keith Raffan (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 48.0, "ContributionID": 704547, "EditedText": "I have two points to put to the First Minister, one general and one specific. As a general point, how much time does he anticipate allowing for pre- legislative scrutiny of these bills? He might give members an idea of the timetable, although I presume that he expects the bills to become acts by next July. We are working to a tight timetable, but perhaps in future the legislative programme can be announced earlier, so that there can be a period for pre-legislative scrutiny. As a specific point on the national parks, the First Minister mentioned Loch Lomond and Trossachs as the first national park. When does he anticipate moving on to the Cairngorms national park, and how many other national parks does he anticipate?", "EditedTextHTML": "I have two points to put to the First Minister, one general and one specific. As a general point, how much time does he anticipate allowing for pre- legislative scrutiny of these bills? He might give members an idea of the timetable, although I presume that he expects the bills to become acts by next July. We are working to a tight timetable, but perhaps in future the legislative programme can be announced earlier, so that there can be a period for pre-legislative scrutiny.

As a specific point on the national parks, the First Minister mentioned Loch Lomond and Trossachs as the first national park. When does he anticipate moving on to the Cairngorms national park, and how many other national parks does he anticipate?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C704550", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 54.0, "ContributionID": 704550, "EditedText": "I am not trying to be difficult, but I have said that before we rise—which means in the next couple of weeks—Sam Galbraith will make a statement. I think it is right to let him consider his options and the detail of that statement. That is not meant to be discourteous to this session; but I think it is more appropriate to get that statement into the framework that we have already decided and by the minister specifically involved. There is a wide-ranging educational agenda and I hope that there will be areas where there will be a degree of consensus. Judging by the exchanges on this issue during the election campaign, I know that there will be areas where there will not be consensus, but we will have to handle those as best we can. The committee will also want to consult and to hear from a shifting number of outside interests. We have set out with the best of intentions and I give an undertaking to the Parliament, but it is for Sam Galbraith to make his announcement in his own time.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am not trying to be difficult, but I have said that before we rise—which means in the next couple of weeks—Sam Galbraith will make a statement. I think it is right to let him consider his options and the detail of that statement. That is not meant to be discourteous to this session; but I think it is more appropriate to get that statement into the framework that we have already decided and by the minister specifically involved.

There is a wide-ranging educational agenda and I hope that there will be areas where there will be a degree of consensus. Judging by the exchanges on this issue during the election campaign, I know that there will be areas where there will not be consensus, but we will have to handle those as best we can. The committee will also want to consult and to hear from a shifting number of outside interests. We have set out with the best of intentions and I give an undertaking to the Parliament, but it is for Sam Galbraith to make his announcement in his own time.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C704555", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 64.0, "ContributionID": 704555, "EditedText": "Before we proceed to the debate, I will ask the sound engineer to clear all the requests to ask questions. Members should note that I do not propose to set a time limit for speeches now. This debate will continue during the afternoon, so there should be ample opportunity for all members who wish to speak to do so. As always, I will keep the situation under review. Anyone who wishes to take part in the debate should indicate that now.", "EditedTextHTML": "Before we proceed to the debate, I will ask the sound engineer to clear all the requests to ask questions.

Members should note that I do not propose to set a time limit for speeches now. This debate will continue during the afternoon, so there should be ample opportunity for all members who wish to speak to do so. As always, I will keep the situation under review. Anyone who wishes to take part in the debate should indicate that now.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C704558", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Alex Salmond (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 71.0, "ContributionID": 704558, "EditedText": "I thank the First Minister for the advance copy of his statement. It makes matters considerably easier and I can now solve Mr Sheridan's conundrum as to how there are eight pieces of legislation, rather than seven. There are eight because the land reform, feudalism and national parks bills are counted as three bills as opposed to two. One great advantage of advance copies is that we can count the number of pieces of legislation. There are parts of the legislative programme that we welcome, areas that we have concern about and, above all, areas that are missing from the legislative programme. I watched an interview with the First Minister on the BBC on Sunday, which it would not be unfair to describe as tetchy. I tried to work out why the First Minister was in such a bad mood. I thought that the secret of his bad temper may have been that he had had an advance look at the European election results. He is perhaps still in a bad mood. The First Minister said that the Government was keeping faith with the people; I would have thought that the question to be answered was whether the people were keeping faith with the Government, or—as seems to be the case—losing faith in the Government.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the First Minister for the advance copy of his statement. It makes matters considerably easier and I can now solve Mr Sheridan's conundrum as to how there are eight pieces of legislation, rather than seven. There are eight because the land reform, feudalism and national parks bills are counted as three bills as opposed to two. One great advantage of advance copies is that we can count the number of pieces of legislation.

There are parts of the legislative programme that we welcome, areas that we have concern about and, above all, areas that are missing from the legislative programme. I watched an interview with the First Minister on the BBC on Sunday, which it would not be unfair to describe as tetchy. I tried to work out why the First Minister was in such a bad mood. I thought that the secret of his bad temper may have been that he had had an advance look at the European election results. He is perhaps still in a bad mood.

The First Minister said that the Government was keeping faith with the people; I would have thought that the question to be answered was whether the people were keeping faith with the Government, or—as seems to be the case—losing faith in the Government.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C704569", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 93.0, "ContributionID": 704569, "EditedText": "In the election campaign, the position of the Scottish National party, the Conservative party and the Liberal Democrat party was to lift immediately the beef-on-the-bone ban. That remains the Scottish National party's position.", "EditedTextHTML": "In the election campaign, the position of the Scottish National party, the Conservative party and the Liberal Democrat party was to lift immediately the beef-on-the-bone ban. That remains the Scottish National party's position.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C704570", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Simpson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 95.0, "ContributionID": 704570, "EditedText": "Against medical advice.", "EditedTextHTML": "Against medical advice.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C704560", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 75.0, "ContributionID": 704560, "EditedText": "Mr Galbraith, in his normal conciliatory manner, is mumbling from a sedentary position. Westminster habits can die hard. None the less, the facts are that in the first vote for the Scots Parliament the Labour party achieved 39 per cent of the vote, which was not one of its best performances; in the second vote it achieved 34 per cent, the lowest Labour vote in Scotland since 1931; and last Thursday, it achieved 29 per cent, the lowest Labour vote in Scotland since 1918. Most Governments have a honeymoon period; this seems to be a reverse honeymoon period. At this rate of progress—a loss of 2 per cent a week—the Labour party will have zero before Christmas. It is reasonable to try to discover if that was the reason for the First Minister's tetchy mood. The First Minister also argued that the press was not giving this Parliament a fair crack of the whip. The initial coverage of the Parliament and its proceedings was, I think, very favourable. Last week's coverage was much less favourable. The First Minister spoke about the importance of consultation and scrutiny: perhaps if we have fewer disreputable attempts to interfere with the Opposition's ability to do its job, the Parliament will be able to endear itself to the Scottish people. The nature of last week's debates was determined by Mr McConnell's attempts to undermine the Opposition. The eight bills and the 2,405 words that the First Minister gave us—another advantage of having an advance copy—could not disguise the lack of ambition in this first legislative programme of this first Scots Parliament for 300 years. It was a low- key first statement; I think that many people in Scotland were looking for a bit more. I want to turn first to the areas that we welcome. I welcome the hoped-for end of feudalism and feudal inhibitions in Scotland. It is a comment on Westminster control of Scottish affairs that, after 300 years of the union, feudal inhibitions still affect many people. As many members will know, that is not just a matter for the Highlands and Islands; it is a matter that affects people the length and breadth of the country. Many of us who have been Westminster MPs have found it impossible to explain to constituents why they should be subjected to injustice, not just from the traditional landlords but in particular from people who have been called the \"raiders of the lost titles\", people who have bought feudal inhibitions at low prices and have then rigorously used them to extract substantial sums of money from ordinary people throughout Scotland. I can assure the First Minister that the Scottish National party will co-operate fully in bringing about the end, we hope, of feudalism in Scotland. We also welcome the appearance of land reform on the parliamentary agenda. Across the parties, except the Conservatives, there is an enthusiasm for this Parliament to tackle some of the Scottish land questions. I know that today the First Minister was just listing the bills and not giving us the full details. None the less, when we examine those matters, we must answer the questions of how to facilitate the desirable process of allowing communities to purchase the land on which they work and live, and of what happens if a bad landlord is unwilling to sell. We must also answer the questions of what procedures we have to involve communities in improving estates, and of what procedures we have to improve consultation and involvement in the estates beyond merely facilitating purchase, which I suspect will affect only a minority of people on the land in Scotland. Those are issues that we will want to have pursued in an area of legislation that we broadly welcome. I also welcome the manner in which the First Minister introduced the incapable adults bill and his intention to legislate in that direction. The First Minister will be aware that this is an enormously sensitive matter, and he has listed some of the areas that cause great concern in many parts of Scottish society. It is an issue that must be handled extremely carefully and with great sensitivity and an area in which, as Mr Dewar rightly says, the parliamentary committee system can come into its own in taking on board some of the legitimate concerns that people in Scotland have about those matters. I welcome the fact that we will have a process of financial scrutiny and audit and I look forward to Mr McConnell unveiling some of the secrecy that has previously surrounded Scottish Office accounting. I also look forward to those matters being brought before this Parliament so that some of the issues from the election campaign that were left unresolved can be identified. I have a file of the Deputy First Minister's quotations about the reality of public funding and public expenditure in Scotland. Until 6 May Mr Wallace felt that public services in Scotland were inadequately funded. I look forward to examination of Mr McConnell's bill in order to see if the Deputy First Minister has been brought on board to accept the First Minister's interpretation of Scottish public finance. I want to turn to areas in which I and the SNP and, I hope, others in this chamber have substantial concerns. Most reasonable people would say that there is a case for congestion charges being levied in cities, with the proviso that the public transport infrastructure is in place before the charges are introduced. The Scottish people currently suffer from the highest petrol and diesel charges in Europe despite the fact that Scotland is a major oil and gas producer. The First Minister and the Labour party will have to explain to them what exactly the environmental case is for, for example, introducing tolls on the M8. If, indeed, this is contained in the bill, I would like to know the proposed level of charges for Scotland's motorways. Does the charge start at £1 and move upwards, or will it initially be a Skye bridge toll? I see that the First Minister is shaking his head so I think that the pound has it in terms of the initial toll. The environmental case for charging on motorways is very frail indeed. The initial impact of that would be to divert traffic to less suitable roads. How on earth can that be considered an environmental initiative? After Scotland's experience of road tolls on the Skye bridge, that will be a matter about which the Government will have considerable explaining to do. When we consider a transport bill, would not it be better to start to look at areas such as the fifth and sixth freedoms in terms of air freight? The Parliament being able to move in that area could start to have a large stimulating effect on the Scottish economy. A number of studies indicate both the danger to Scotland unless those freedoms are achieved and the opportunity created for the Scottish economy if that innovative move in transport policy is made. I also have concerns about the local government code of conduct. That is not because I do not support it. I think that everyone would support a code of conduct for local government. However, we have heard all this before. I seem to remember that, before the 1995 local elections, Mr McConnell proposed and had signed a code of conduct for Labour party councillors in Scotland. Many of us would like a move towards proportional representation in local government in a local government bill. The First Minister is shaking his head again. I am not sure that the Deputy First Minister would share his opinion.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Galbraith, in his normal conciliatory manner, is mumbling from a sedentary position. Westminster habits can die hard.

None the less, the facts are that in the first vote for the Scots Parliament the Labour party achieved 39 per cent of the vote, which was not one of its best performances; in the second vote it achieved 34 per cent, the lowest Labour vote in Scotland since 1931; and last Thursday, it achieved 29 per cent, the lowest Labour vote in Scotland since 1918. Most Governments have a honeymoon period; this seems to be a reverse honeymoon period. At this rate of progress—a loss of 2 per cent a week—the Labour party will have zero before Christmas. It is reasonable to try to discover if that was the reason for the First Minister's tetchy mood.

The First Minister also argued that the press was not giving this Parliament a fair crack of the whip. The initial coverage of the Parliament and its proceedings was, I think, very favourable. Last week's coverage was much less favourable. The First Minister spoke about the importance of consultation and scrutiny: perhaps if we have fewer disreputable attempts to interfere with the Opposition's ability to do its job, the Parliament will be able to endear itself to the Scottish people. The nature of last week's debates was determined by Mr McConnell's attempts to undermine the Opposition.

The eight bills and the 2,405 words that the First Minister gave us—another advantage of having an advance copy—could not disguise the lack of ambition in this first legislative programme of this first Scots Parliament for 300 years. It was a low- key first statement; I think that many people in Scotland were looking for a bit more.

I want to turn first to the areas that we welcome. I welcome the hoped-for end of feudalism and feudal inhibitions in Scotland. It is a comment on Westminster control of Scottish affairs that, after 300 years of the union, feudal inhibitions still affect many people. As many members will know, that is not just a matter for the Highlands and Islands; it is a matter that affects people the length and breadth of the country. Many of us who have been Westminster MPs have found it impossible to explain to constituents why they should be subjected to injustice, not just from the traditional landlords but in particular from people who have been called the \"raiders of the lost titles\", people

who have bought feudal inhibitions at low prices and have then rigorously used them to extract substantial sums of money from ordinary people throughout Scotland. I can assure the First Minister that the Scottish National party will co-operate fully in bringing about the end, we hope, of feudalism in Scotland.

We also welcome the appearance of land reform on the parliamentary agenda. Across the parties, except the Conservatives, there is an enthusiasm for this Parliament to tackle some of the Scottish land questions. I know that today the First Minister was just listing the bills and not giving us the full details. None the less, when we examine those matters, we must answer the questions of how to facilitate the desirable process of allowing communities to purchase the land on which they work and live, and of what happens if a bad landlord is unwilling to sell. We must also answer the questions of what procedures we have to involve communities in improving estates, and of what procedures we have to improve consultation and involvement in the estates beyond merely facilitating purchase, which I suspect will affect only a minority of people on the land in Scotland. Those are issues that we will want to have pursued in an area of legislation that we broadly welcome.

I also welcome the manner in which the First Minister introduced the incapable adults bill and his intention to legislate in that direction. The First Minister will be aware that this is an enormously sensitive matter, and he has listed some of the areas that cause great concern in many parts of Scottish society. It is an issue that must be handled extremely carefully and with great sensitivity and an area in which, as Mr Dewar rightly says, the parliamentary committee system can come into its own in taking on board some of the legitimate concerns that people in Scotland have about those matters.

I welcome the fact that we will have a process of financial scrutiny and audit and I look forward to Mr McConnell unveiling some of the secrecy that has previously surrounded Scottish Office accounting. I also look forward to those matters being brought before this Parliament so that some of the issues from the election campaign that were left unresolved can be identified. I have a file of the Deputy First Minister's quotations about the reality of public funding and public expenditure in Scotland. Until 6 May Mr Wallace felt that public services in Scotland were inadequately funded. I look forward to examination of Mr McConnell's bill in order to see if the Deputy First Minister has been brought on board to accept the First Minister's interpretation of Scottish public finance.

I want to turn to areas in which I and the SNP and, I hope, others in this chamber have substantial concerns. Most reasonable people would say that there is a case for congestion charges being levied in cities, with the proviso that the public transport infrastructure is in place before the charges are introduced. The Scottish people currently suffer from the highest petrol and diesel charges in Europe despite the fact that Scotland is a major oil and gas producer. The First Minister and the Labour party will have to explain to them what exactly the environmental case is for, for example, introducing tolls on the M8. If, indeed, this is contained in the bill, I would like to know the proposed level of charges for Scotland's motorways. Does the charge start at £1 and move upwards, or will it initially be a Skye bridge toll? I see that the First Minister is shaking his head so I think that the pound has it in terms of the initial toll.

The environmental case for charging on motorways is very frail indeed. The initial impact of that would be to divert traffic to less suitable roads. How on earth can that be considered an environmental initiative? After Scotland's experience of road tolls on the Skye bridge, that will be a matter about which the Government will have considerable explaining to do.

When we consider a transport bill, would not it be better to start to look at areas such as the fifth and sixth freedoms in terms of air freight? The Parliament being able to move in that area could start to have a large stimulating effect on the Scottish economy. A number of studies indicate both the danger to Scotland unless those freedoms are achieved and the opportunity created for the Scottish economy if that innovative move in transport policy is made.

I also have concerns about the local government code of conduct. That is not because I do not support it. I think that everyone would support a code of conduct for local government. However, we have heard all this before. I seem to remember that, before the 1995 local elections, Mr McConnell proposed and had signed a code of conduct for Labour party councillors in Scotland. Many of us would like a move towards proportional representation in local government in a local government bill.

The First Minister is shaking his head again. I am not sure that the Deputy First Minister would share his opinion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C704572", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 99.0, "ContributionID": 704572, "EditedText": "The First Minister shakes his head again. Those were the words of the Deputy First Minister during the election campaign. The Deputy First Minister may have been convinced by the Government's programme, but most of us believe that there is a lack of public investment in Scotland and I would have liked investment in public services to have been included as part of this Administration's programme. How will we achieve the objectives that were set out by the First Minister in terms of jobs, investment and prosperity, and in terms of increases in income, employment and output in Scotland? Nothing in this legislative programme touches those commanding heights of the Scottish economy. How will we gain the comparative and competitive advantage that most members would like? How will we deliver those advantages for Scotland and secure the prosperity of our people? The legislative programme is silent on jobs, enterprise and the economy. We have a minister who deals with social inclusion, but within this programme there is no ambition to tackle poverty and social exclusion in Scotland. Where is the bill that gathers those areas together to be presented, presumably, by the minister who bears that name? Where are the measures to ensure a fair distribution of the wealth of Scotland, measures to ensure that that wealth touches all our people, not just some of them? In terms of public services, of the lack of detail in how the Scottish economy is to be moved forward and of how we will eliminate poverty in Scotland, this legislative programme is silent on key areas of the Scottish economy and life. The First Minister said that he was looking at Westminster to legislate seldom, and only with permission, in the areas for which this Parliament has responsibility. The First Minister's response to James Douglas-Hamilton's question about speed limits in Scotland gave the game away: even on devolved subjects the Westminster writ still runs in Scotland. On the vital areas of the economy, of public services, and of eliminating poverty in Scotland this Administration is in a straitjacket, because key aspects of those areas are retained at Westminster. The First Minister expresses the hope that Westminster will not intrude into Scots legislation. He has some friends in the Westminster Government at the moment, but that will not be the position for all time. There is nothing in the Scotland Act 1998 to prevent a Westminster Government, if it so chooses, from legislating on or countermanding what is in that act. That applies to devolved areas, never mind the areas which are of most concern to the people of Scotland. In short, this is a programme that fails to meet even the claimed ambitions of the Government and totally fails to meet the real needs of the people of Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "The First Minister shakes his head again. Those were the words of the Deputy First Minister during the election campaign. The Deputy First Minister may have been convinced by the Government's programme, but most of us believe that there is a lack of public investment in Scotland and I would have liked investment in public services to have been included as part of this Administration's programme.

How will we achieve the objectives that were set out by the First Minister in terms of jobs, investment and prosperity, and in terms of increases in income, employment and output in Scotland? Nothing in this legislative programme touches those commanding heights of the Scottish economy. How will we gain the comparative and competitive advantage that most members would like? How will we deliver those advantages for Scotland and secure the prosperity of our people? The legislative programme is silent on jobs, enterprise and the economy.

We have a minister who deals with social inclusion, but within this programme there is no ambition to tackle poverty and social exclusion in Scotland. Where is the bill that gathers those areas together to be presented, presumably, by the minister who bears that name? Where are the measures to ensure a fair distribution of the wealth of Scotland, measures to ensure that that wealth touches all our people, not just some of them? In terms of public services, of the lack of detail in how the Scottish economy is to be moved forward and of how we will eliminate poverty in Scotland, this legislative programme is silent on key areas of the Scottish economy and life.

The First Minister said that he was looking at Westminster to legislate seldom, and only with permission, in the areas for which this Parliament has responsibility. The First Minister's response to James Douglas-Hamilton's question about speed limits in Scotland gave the game away: even on devolved subjects the Westminster writ still runs in Scotland. On the vital areas of the economy, of public services, and of eliminating poverty in Scotland this Administration is in a straitjacket, because key aspects of those areas are retained at Westminster.

The First Minister expresses the hope that Westminster will not intrude into Scots legislation. He has some friends in the Westminster Government at the moment, but that will not be the position for all time. There is nothing in the Scotland Act 1998 to prevent a Westminster Government, if it so chooses, from legislating on or countermanding what is in that act. That applies to devolved areas, never mind the areas which are of most concern to the people of Scotland.

In short, this is a programme that fails to meet even the claimed ambitions of the Government and totally fails to meet the real needs of the people of Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C704576", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 108.0, "ContributionID": 704576, "EditedText": "I think that Mr Canavan was first, but I will happily take Mr Raffan's intervention afterwards.", "EditedTextHTML": "I think that Mr Canavan was first, but I will happily take Mr Raffan's intervention afterwards.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C704577", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 110.0, "ContributionID": 704577, "EditedText": "Could Mr Canavan have his microphone switched on please.", "EditedTextHTML": "Could Mr Canavan have his microphone switched on please.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C704578", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 112.0, "ContributionID": 704578, "EditedText": "Surely Mr McLetchie is being a bit churlish. I would have thought that the Conservative party warmly welcomes any legislation to improve access to the countryside, especially bearing it in mind that, yesterday, Mr McLetchie's party leader appointed an English MP called Dominic Grieve as the Tory party's spokesperson for Scotland. Mr Grieve is apparently boasting about the fact that he has been allowed to roam all over the Scottish Highlands, despite the fact that he is descended from a family of sheep stealers and cattle rustlers.", "EditedTextHTML": "Surely Mr McLetchie is being a bit churlish. I would have thought that the Conservative party warmly welcomes any legislation to improve access to the countryside, especially bearing it in mind that, yesterday, Mr McLetchie's party leader appointed an English MP called Dominic Grieve as the Tory party's spokesperson for Scotland. Mr Grieve is apparently boasting about the fact that he has been allowed to roam all over the Scottish Highlands, despite the fact that he is descended from a family of sheep stealers and cattle rustlers.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C704580", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 116.0, "ContributionID": 704580, "EditedText": "Can Mr McLetchie clarify the Conservative party's position on national parks? Is it for or against the concept? When he was a minister at the Scottish Office, Lord James launched an initiative on national parks and was in favour of the concept; I pay tribute to him for that. Do Mr McLetchie's comments mark a change in party policy?", "EditedTextHTML": "Can Mr McLetchie clarify the Conservative party's position on national parks? Is it for or against the concept? When he was a minister at the Scottish Office, Lord James launched an initiative on national parks and was in favour of the concept; I pay tribute to him for that. Do Mr McLetchie's comments mark a change in party policy?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1873E89P171C704582", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jackson, Dr Sylvia", "ID": 1873, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Stirling" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sylvia Jackson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Sylvia Jackson (Stirling) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 120.0, "ContributionID": 704582, "EditedText": "I want to point out—", "EditedTextHTML": "I want to point out—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C704588", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 132.0, "ContributionID": 704588, "EditedText": "I should clarify the situation, in case I misled unintentionally. We intend to include in the bill the general authority to treat an incapacitated patient if the treatment is in the interest of the patient, because the law is unclear on that matter. We will also address the case for therapeutic research that deals with the disease the patient is suffering from. We agree that the other matters to which Mr McLetchie refers should not be in the bill at this stage.", "EditedTextHTML": "I should clarify the situation, in case I misled unintentionally. We intend to include in the bill the general authority to treat an incapacitated patient if the treatment is in the interest of the patient, because the law is unclear on that matter. We will also address the case for therapeutic research that deals with the disease the patient is suffering from. We agree that the other matters to which Mr McLetchie refers should not be in the bill at this stage.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2029E47P167C704606", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Henry, Hugh", "ID": 2029, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Hugh Henry", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Hugh Henry: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 173.0, "ContributionID": 704606, "EditedText": "A number of examples of sleaze have been reported up and down the country in councils that are controlled by the SNP. I recall that one of the few councillors to have been jailed for misdemeanours in recent years was an SNP councillor.", "EditedTextHTML": "A number of examples of sleaze have been reported up and down the country in councils that are controlled by the SNP. I recall that one of the few councillors to have been jailed for misdemeanours in recent years was an SNP councillor.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1820E139P227C704595", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Curran, Margaret", "ID": 1820, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Baillieston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Curran", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Curran: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 150.0, "ContributionID": 704595, "EditedText": "As Mr Monteith knows well, Mr McAllion's comment was made in a particular context. I wish to address such abuse of interventions. In a scurrilous article in a recent edition of a Glasgow newspaper, Duncan Hamilton presented the SNP with a terrible dilemma. If the SNP does not condemn his ill-informed, inaccurate and prejudiced comments, we can conclude only that it endorses arrogant, reactionary and elitist politics; imagine the reaction if he had made those comments about black people. I have written today to Mr Salmond to urge that he publicly disown Mr Hamilton's comments, and I look forward to his reply.", "EditedTextHTML": "As Mr Monteith knows well, Mr McAllion's comment was made in a particular context. I wish to address such abuse of interventions.

In a scurrilous article in a recent edition of a Glasgow newspaper, Duncan Hamilton presented the SNP with a terrible dilemma. If the SNP does not condemn his ill-informed, inaccurate and prejudiced comments, we can conclude only that it endorses arrogant, reactionary and elitist politics; imagine the reaction if he had made those comments about black people. I have written today to Mr Salmond to urge that he publicly disown Mr Hamilton's comments, and I look forward to his reply.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1820E139P227C704597", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Curran, Margaret", "ID": 1820, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Baillieston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Curran", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Curran: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 154.0, "ContributionID": 704597, "EditedText": "I wonder how much money was made from Mr Hamilton's utterances. In this Parliament, it is time to insist on mature behaviour and good manners. We should be driven by our commitment to the communities that we are here to represent, their needs and the measures that need to be put in place to address them, not by the conventions of a debating chamber. In the legislative programme that Donald Dewar outlined, I argue that the most significant thread is social justice, not only because it addresses the needs of the people in my constituency of Glasgow Baillieston, but because it provides a vision and a direction for Scotland as a whole. Donald Dewar talked about stable communities. We do not need a raft of legislation to work towards such communities; we need a strategy for social inclusion that recognises the fact that poverty, lack of work, lack of educational achievement, lack of personal esteem and other key indicators are interconnected and reinforce one another. Unless we deliver an overall approach, those problems seem insurmountable. If we do not address the deep-seated problems of exclusion and poverty, we will fail not only communities such as Easterhouse, which I am here to represent, but Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "I wonder how much money was made from Mr Hamilton's utterances. In this Parliament, it is time to insist on mature behaviour and good manners. We should be driven by our commitment to the communities that we are here to represent, their needs and the measures that need to be put in place to address them, not by the conventions of a debating chamber.

In the legislative programme that Donald Dewar outlined, I argue that the most significant thread is social justice, not only because it addresses the needs of the people in my constituency of Glasgow Baillieston, but because it provides a vision and a direction for Scotland as a whole. Donald Dewar talked about stable communities. We do not need a raft of legislation to work towards such communities; we need a strategy for social inclusion that recognises the fact that poverty, lack of work, lack of educational achievement, lack of personal esteem and other key indicators are interconnected and reinforce one another. Unless we deliver an overall approach, those problems seem insurmountable. If we do not address the deep-seated problems of exclusion and poverty, we will fail not only communities such as Easterhouse, which I am here to represent, but Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C704592", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Annabel Goldie (West of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 143.0, "ContributionID": 704592, "EditedText": "This legislative programme seems to be rather like the curate's egg—good in parts. As Mr McLetchie has indicated, there are areas of the programme which the Conservatives are prepared to endorse and to support, but the other parts cause concern. I agree with some of the earlier comments about the determination of priorities and the consequent gaps in the programme. The First Minister, in his preliminary remarks, said that people ask when this Parliament will make a difference. He also said, in defining the Parliament's role, that we are here to keep promises. One of the most alarming gaps in the programme relates to drugs abuse in Scotland. I endorse what Mr Gallie and Mrs Godman have already said, and I am grateful to Mrs Godman for an accurate outline of the extent of the problem. The Deputy First Minister, Mr Wallace, has some sympathy for the problem. During the election campaign, he and I met in connection with the problem of drugs abuse in Scotland. I think that he and I would agree that the people we met—the youngsters we encountered, and the people who work with addicts and victims—were a deserving and meritorious group. If I heard one comment recurring throughout the election campaign, it was that drugs abuse in Scotland is one of the major issues that perplexes, worries and alarms people. I am concerned that there is a silence about that in the legislative programme. Another recurring theme that I heard—as did the Deputy First Minister—was that all those who are trying to work at grass-roots level with the horrendous consequences of addiction and abuse are apprehensive about the lack of coherence, cohesion and a definitive Scottish programme to deal with the problem. During the election campaign, the Conservatives submitted that the issue was one of beckoning opportunity for this Parliament. We can look at the problem, take it on board, and spearhead a Scottish initiative through a minister or a parliamentary committee. It is regrettable that the coalition Government has been unable to produce anything of comfort to the people of Scotland. They are desperately and acutely aware of the problem and they seek urgent reassurance. I hope that, notwithstanding the silence on drugs abuse in the legislative programme, it might be possible for the Executive to devise a means of bringing this problem to the fore, and in so doing to reassure the people of Scotland that this Parliament is concerned not about minutiae or technical detail or other aspects of bureaucratic tedium, but about the profound issues that are ravaging the communities of our country. I am equally alarmed about the omission from the programme regarding enterprise and business. It is a matter of concern that there is no specific encouragement for the business community. Mr Dewar said that he wanted to build an enterprise economy. As Nicola Sturgeon said about education, however, words may be one thing, but what are the substantive components of policy and legislative intent that will bring bricks and mortar to that proposal? On the transport bill, there is silence on the need to address the desperate concerns of the business community about inadequate transport links. If one speaks to business communities in all parts of Scotland, one finds concern about congestion in a road structure that is unable to cope with the needs of business and commerce and concern that the ability of those areas to attract investment—inward or otherwise—is being deeply prejudiced. I am concerned that apparently that is not perceived by the Government as a matter of any importance. What about reassurance on business rates? What about succour for the small business community? I come from that background, and I know that running a small business is a matter of daily, indeed hourly, challenge and preoccupation. It would be helpful if the Government could reassure the business community that the matter of business rates has not been lost sight of, and if the Government could emphasise that it recognises the importance of preserving stability of business rates. If it does not, business communities in Scotland have real cause for concern. In relation to training, the new deal—which I think we all acknowledge was Labour's English solution to a Scottish problem—has not been a success. It can hardly be classed as a success when more than 60 per cent of those involved do not end up in full-time jobs and when the cost of success is huge for those who do. I am concerned that that problem has not been addressed. It is known to exist; one cannot speak to the business communities or the business agencies and not hear that there is deep concern about the efficacy and the workability of the new deal. I should have thought that this was an ideal opportunity for the Parliament, within the Government's legislative programme, to look at that and to determine a better structure for people in Scotland. I, too, welcome the attention to the technical detail of feudal reform, which most people recognise is long overdue. However, it might not be universally recognised that there is a useful aspect of feudal law: the current relationship between what is technically known as the superior and the vassal allows the superior a preservation of amenity conditions, as well as private expense and immediacy of enforcement action. I am pleased that the Government acknowledges that and is prepared to try to support and retain it. That can be contrasted sharply with the lumbering enforcement procedures under planning law, which are carried out at public expense. I hope that the Government, in framing the bill, will not throw the baby out with the bath water, but will preserve the best, the most workable and the meritorious aspects of feudal law. I endorse what Mr McLetchie said about the national parks bill; there is a need to see clearly what the bill is about. It is easy to wave the words \"national parks\" around and imagine that it is a panacea for all the problems that have been identified in relation to the management of land and water in, for example, the Loch Lomond and Trossachs area. One of the burning issues at Loch Lomond is the abuse of activity on the water extent, which has been going on for many years and is of deep concern to both riparian dwellers and visitors. I hope that in the phrasing and drafting of the bill, due regard will be given to the need for proper management of activity on the water surface. As Mr McLetchie said, the Conservatives will gladly support aspects of the Government's programme. However, there are huge gaps, which are a matter of concern, and there are other areas where the greatest sensitivity and the exercise of manifest common sense will be required.", "EditedTextHTML": "This legislative programme seems to be rather like the curate's egg—good in parts. As Mr McLetchie has indicated, there are areas of the programme which the Conservatives are prepared to endorse and to support, but the other parts cause concern.

I agree with some of the earlier comments about the determination of priorities and the consequent gaps in the programme. The First Minister, in his preliminary remarks, said that people ask when this Parliament will make a difference. He also said, in defining the Parliament's role, that we are here to keep promises.

One of the most alarming gaps in the programme relates to drugs abuse in Scotland. I endorse what Mr Gallie and Mrs Godman have already said, and I am grateful to Mrs Godman for an accurate outline of the extent of the problem. The Deputy First Minister, Mr Wallace, has some sympathy for the problem. During the election campaign, he and I met in connection with the problem of drugs abuse in Scotland. I think that he and I would agree that the people we met—the youngsters we encountered, and the people who work with addicts and victims—were a deserving and meritorious group.

If I heard one comment recurring throughout the election campaign, it was that drugs abuse in Scotland is one of the major issues that perplexes, worries and alarms people. I am concerned that there is a silence about that in the legislative programme. Another recurring theme that I heard—as did the Deputy First Minister—was that all those who are trying to work at grass-roots level with the horrendous consequences of addiction and abuse are apprehensive about the lack of coherence, cohesion and a definitive Scottish programme to deal with the problem. During the election campaign, the Conservatives submitted that the issue was one of beckoning opportunity for this Parliament. We can look at the problem, take it on board, and spearhead a Scottish initiative through a minister or a parliamentary committee.

It is regrettable that the coalition Government has been unable to produce anything of comfort to the people of Scotland. They are desperately and acutely aware of the problem and they seek urgent reassurance. I hope that, notwithstanding the silence on drugs abuse in the legislative programme, it might be possible for the Executive to devise a means of bringing this problem to the fore, and in so doing to reassure the people of Scotland that this Parliament is concerned not about minutiae or technical detail or other aspects of bureaucratic tedium, but about the profound issues that are ravaging the communities of our country.

I am equally alarmed about the omission from the programme regarding enterprise and business. It is a matter of concern that there is no specific encouragement for the business community. Mr Dewar said that he wanted to build an enterprise

economy. As Nicola Sturgeon said about education, however, words may be one thing, but what are the substantive components of policy and legislative intent that will bring bricks and mortar to that proposal?

On the transport bill, there is silence on the need to address the desperate concerns of the business community about inadequate transport links. If one speaks to business communities in all parts of Scotland, one finds concern about congestion in a road structure that is unable to cope with the needs of business and commerce and concern that the ability of those areas to attract investment—inward or otherwise—is being deeply prejudiced.

I am concerned that apparently that is not perceived by the Government as a matter of any importance. What about reassurance on business rates? What about succour for the small business community? I come from that background, and I know that running a small business is a matter of daily, indeed hourly, challenge and preoccupation.

It would be helpful if the Government could reassure the business community that the matter of business rates has not been lost sight of, and if the Government could emphasise that it recognises the importance of preserving stability of business rates. If it does not, business communities in Scotland have real cause for concern.

In relation to training, the new deal—which I think we all acknowledge was Labour's English solution to a Scottish problem—has not been a success. It can hardly be classed as a success when more than 60 per cent of those involved do not end up in full-time jobs and when the cost of success is huge for those who do.

I am concerned that that problem has not been addressed. It is known to exist; one cannot speak to the business communities or the business agencies and not hear that there is deep concern about the efficacy and the workability of the new deal. I should have thought that this was an ideal opportunity for the Parliament, within the Government's legislative programme, to look at that and to determine a better structure for people in Scotland.

I, too, welcome the attention to the technical detail of feudal reform, which most people recognise is long overdue. However, it might not be universally recognised that there is a useful aspect of feudal law: the current relationship between what is technically known as the superior and the vassal allows the superior a preservation of amenity conditions, as well as private expense and immediacy of enforcement action. I am pleased that the Government acknowledges that and is prepared to try to support and retain it. That can be contrasted sharply with the lumbering enforcement procedures under planning law, which are carried out at public expense.

I hope that the Government, in framing the bill, will not throw the baby out with the bath water, but will preserve the best, the most workable and the meritorious aspects of feudal law.

I endorse what Mr McLetchie said about the national parks bill; there is a need to see clearly what the bill is about. It is easy to wave the words \"national parks\" around and imagine that it is a panacea for all the problems that have been identified in relation to the management of land and water in, for example, the Loch Lomond and Trossachs area.

One of the burning issues at Loch Lomond is the abuse of activity on the water extent, which has been going on for many years and is of deep concern to both riparian dwellers and visitors. I hope that in the phrasing and drafting of the bill, due regard will be given to the need for proper management of activity on the water surface.

As Mr McLetchie said, the Conservatives will gladly support aspects of the Government's programme. However, there are huge gaps, which are a matter of concern, and there are other areas where the greatest sensitivity and the exercise of manifest common sense will be required.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1820E139P227C704593", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Curran, Margaret", "ID": 1820, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Baillieston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Curran", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Margaret Curran (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 146.0, "ContributionID": 704593, "EditedText": "There has been much comment recently about the level of debate in the chamber, some of which has been mean-spirited and has created an atmosphere that does not offer much encouragement to those who wish to make a contribution. It has been argued that that is part of a backlash—a way of intimidating and silencing women. Let me give notice to all: we are not so easily silenced. None the less, I am guided by the words of Lewis Carroll, who stated: \"Take care of the sense, and the sounds will take care of themselves.\" If the commentators and others think that they can shift our conviction or our determination to speak by such vicious personal attacks, they can think again. I feel obliged to mention one member in particular—", "EditedTextHTML": "There has been much comment recently about the level of debate in the chamber, some of which has been mean-spirited and has created an atmosphere that does not offer much encouragement to those who wish to make a contribution. It has been argued that that is part of a backlash—a way of intimidating and silencing women. Let me give notice to all: we are not so easily silenced. None the less, I am guided by the words of Lewis Carroll, who stated:

\"Take care of the sense, and the sounds will take care of themselves.\"

If the commentators and others think that they can shift our conviction or our determination to speak by such vicious personal attacks, they can think again.

I feel obliged to mention one member in particular—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2029E47P167C704601", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Henry, Hugh", "ID": 2029, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Hugh Henry", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Hugh Henry (Paisley South) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 163.0, "ContributionID": 704601, "EditedText": "Mr Gibson mentioned sleaze in Labour councils. Will he comment on reported sleaze among SNP councillors in recent years?", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Gibson mentioned sleaze in Labour councils. Will he comment on reported sleaze among SNP councillors in recent years?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C704604", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 169.0, "ContributionID": 704604, "EditedText": "I can assure Mr Henry that the Deputy Presiding Officer does not wish that to happen. Mr Gibson, Mr Henry is indicating that he would like to make a further intervention. Do you wish to accept it?", "EditedTextHTML": "I can assure Mr Henry that the Deputy Presiding Officer does not wish that to happen.

Mr Gibson, Mr Henry is indicating that he would like to make a further intervention. Do you wish to accept it?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C704619", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 201.0, "ContributionID": 704619, "EditedText": "That is not a point of order, Mr Gibson. I have switched off your microphone. Please sit down. Interruption. Mr Gibson, I switched off your microphone and I was standing. That should indicate to you—and to any other member in that situation—that you should be quiet and sit down. Mr McConnell did not break any convention of this chamber. Similarly, if Mr Neil does not wish to take an intervention—as he indicated in this instance—that is his choice. It is up to members to respect the choice of the speaker.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is not a point of order, Mr Gibson. I have switched off your microphone. Please sit down. [Interruption.] Mr Gibson, I switched off your microphone and I was standing. That should indicate to you—and to any other member in that situation—that you should be quiet and sit down. Mr McConnell did not break any convention of this chamber. Similarly, if Mr Neil does not wish to take an intervention—as he indicated in this instance—that is his choice. It is up to members to respect the choice of the speaker.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C704625", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 214.0, "ContributionID": 704625, "EditedText": "I see no contradiction at all in the positions. It is interesting that, when one raises a matter of policy with SNP members, they always reply on a completely different issue. I presume that if they had an answer about their economic policy, they would give it. I am happy for them to go into a huddle in the coffee room and make up their economic policy. Then I will happily give way to them in 10 minutes if they can answer the question asked by me, by Mr Johnstone and by Mr McConnell. They have not done so yet. I will come to tuition fees later, as Mr Salmond quoted selectively—an old political trick—from the partnership agreement. First, I want to continue talking about the legislative programme, which was what I thought this debate was about. Interruption. Someone should tell SNP members that the election is over and that they lost. They are a bit like those Japanese soldiers in the second world war who emerged from the jungle only to be told that the war had ended 40 years before and that they had been defeated. The sooner the SNP can make constructive points, the better.", "EditedTextHTML": "I see no contradiction at all in the positions. It is interesting that, when one raises a matter of policy with SNP members, they always reply on a completely different issue. I presume that if they had an answer about their economic policy, they would give it. I am happy for them to go into a huddle in the coffee room and make up their economic policy. Then I will happily give way to them in 10 minutes if they can answer the question asked by me, by Mr Johnstone and by Mr McConnell. They have not done so yet.

I will come to tuition fees later, as Mr Salmond quoted selectively—an old political trick—from the partnership agreement. First, I want to continue talking about the legislative programme, which was what I thought this debate was about. [Interruption.] Someone should tell SNP members that the election is over and that they lost. They are a bit like those Japanese soldiers in the second world war who emerged from the jungle only to be told that the war had ended 40 years before and that they had been defeated. The sooner the SNP can make constructive points, the better.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C704627", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 218.0, "ContributionID": 704627, "EditedText": "Will Mr Raffan please move the debate on?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr Raffan please move the debate on?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1805E13P109C704645", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Whitefield, Karen", "ID": 1805, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Airdrie and Shotts" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Karen Whitefield", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Karen Whitefield: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 255.0, "ContributionID": 704645, "EditedText": "I thank Mr Wallace for that intervention. I am happy with the legislative programme; I think that it will make a real difference to the people of Scotland and of Airdrie and Shotts. I am here today to talk about incapable adults in my constituency, who have been to see me over the past few weeks to tell me how much they need this legislation. Existing legislation has let down the people of Airdrie and Shotts and of Scotland. There is a real need for a modern and comprehensive framework for the law governing the management of property, the financial affairs and the welfare of adults who are incapable of making decisions about those matters. I am committed to making this Parliament work, because I believe that its policies have the potential to make a real difference to the lives of the people I represent. The incapable adults bill will do just that. At present, if a man develops dementia and he and his wife have a joint bank account, their account will be frozen. His wife will not be allowed to access their money, even to pay household bills. She will not be allowed to continue to manage their finances, even though she may have done so for all their married life. In future, banks will be allowed to set up simple procedures that will give access to reasonable sums of money. I met a constituent last week who told me of his concerns about his wife's dementia and his concern that the doctors at the local hospital were not including him in decisions about her care. Today, he will be pleased to learn that in future there will be a legal obligation on doctors to consult him fully about medical decisions related to his wife's care. Those are real problems affecting real people every day in Scotland. I welcome the introduction of this bill. It will encourage, promote and make possible greater independence for people who develop mental incapacity. At the same time, it will protect some of Scotland's most vulnerable citizens from abuse.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank Mr Wallace for that intervention. I am happy with the legislative programme; I think that it will make a real difference to the people of Scotland and of Airdrie and Shotts.

I am here today to talk about incapable adults in my constituency, who have been to see me over the past few weeks to tell me how much they need this legislation. Existing legislation has let down the people of Airdrie and Shotts and of Scotland. There is a real need for a modern and comprehensive framework for the law governing the management of property, the financial affairs and the welfare of adults who are incapable of making decisions about those matters.

I am committed to making this Parliament work, because I believe that its policies have the potential to make a real difference to the lives of the people I represent. The incapable adults bill will do just that. At present, if a man develops dementia and he and his wife have a joint bank account, their account will be frozen. His wife will not be allowed to access their money, even to pay household bills. She will not be allowed to continue to manage their finances, even though she may have done so for all their married life. In future, banks will be allowed to set up simple procedures that will give access to reasonable sums of money.

I met a constituent last week who told me of his concerns about his wife's dementia and his concern that the doctors at the local hospital were not including him in decisions about her care. Today, he will be pleased to learn that in future there will be a legal obligation on doctors to consult him fully about medical decisions related to his wife's care.

Those are real problems affecting real people every day in Scotland. I welcome the introduction of this bill. It will encourage, promote and make possible greater independence for people who develop mental incapacity. At the same time, it will protect some of Scotland's most vulnerable citizens from abuse.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1873E89P171C704661", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jackson, Dr Sylvia", "ID": 1873, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Stirling" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sylvia Jackson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Jackson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 291.0, "ContributionID": 704661, "EditedText": "I wanted to make the point that in last week's debate on Mr McLeish's motion we talked about democratic accountability. I hope that, in the spirit of this new Parliament, it will not be about our finding answers to questions; we would like everybody to come on board when doing that. That is our focus.", "EditedTextHTML": "I wanted to make the point that in last week's debate on Mr McLeish's motion we talked about democratic accountability. I hope that, in the spirit of this new Parliament, it will not be about our finding answers to questions; we would like everybody to come on board when doing that. That is our focus.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C704649", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 264.0, "ContributionID": 704649, "EditedText": "I have lodged a motion, which I hope will gain support from all parties, on that specific point of the need for more resources for drug treatment, aftercare and rehabilitation. Of the £1.4 billion United Kingdom budget to tackle drug abuse, three quarters is spent on the courts and detection. We need to redress the balance and spend more on treatment and education.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have lodged a motion, which I hope will gain support from all parties, on that specific point of the need for more resources for drug treatment, aftercare and rehabilitation. Of the £1.4 billion United Kingdom budget to tackle drug abuse, three quarters is spent on the courts and detection. We need to redress the balance and spend more on treatment and education.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1840E82P158C704686", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macmillan, Maureen", "ID": 1840, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Maureen Macmillan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Maureen Macmillan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 346.0, "ContributionID": 704686, "EditedText": "Proposals for Gaelic- medium education are contained in the general education legislation, but it was reported in the Inverness Courier last week, I think, that Gaelic was being given secure status. That was mentioned by Alasdair Morrison.", "EditedTextHTML": "Proposals for Gaelic- medium education are contained in the general education legislation, but it was reported in the Inverness Courier last week, I think, that Gaelic was being given secure status. That was mentioned by Alasdair Morrison.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C704687", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 348.0, "ContributionID": 704687, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C704651", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 268.0, "ContributionID": 704651, "EditedText": "Who knows?", "EditedTextHTML": "Who knows?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C704658", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 285.0, "ContributionID": 704658, "EditedText": "I intended to go on to make the pointthat many of the issues were raised in last week's debate, which was very constructive and sensible, and that it was clear that Dr Jackson and the Minister for Transport and the Environment are willing to consider them. However, there are real resource issues that have not been discussed and they were not touched on in the First Minister's statement. Setting up a series of national parks has funding implications—they require car parks, toilets, staffing and rangers. I want to lay this down as a marker to ministers: if resources are to be made available, where will they come from, who will control them and who will administer them? What will the relationship be between parks authorities and local councils on matters such as planning regulations? We have not said no to national parks, but we will maintain a critical and questioning attitude until we know precisely what is proposed and how it will be implemented. We will play a constructive part in attempting to refine and shape the legislation. I want to make a final point about national parks—", "EditedTextHTML": "I intended to go on to make the point

that many of the issues were raised in last week's debate, which was very constructive and sensible, and that it was clear that Dr Jackson and the Minister for Transport and the Environment are willing to consider them. However, there are real resource issues that have not been discussed and they were not touched on in the First Minister's statement. Setting up a series of national parks has funding implications—they require car parks, toilets, staffing and rangers. I want to lay this down as a marker to ministers: if resources are to be made available, where will they come from, who will control them and who will administer them? What will the relationship be between parks authorities and local councils on matters such as planning regulations? We have not said no to national parks, but we will maintain a critical and questioning attitude until we know precisely what is proposed and how it will be implemented. We will play a constructive part in attempting to refine and shape the legislation.

I want to make a final point about national parks—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2159E115P214C704654", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Martin, Paul", "ID": 2159, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Springburn" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Paul Martin", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Paul Martin (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 276.0, "ContributionID": 704654, "EditedText": "I understand that a number of SNP members, particularly Kenny Gibson, have been awaiting my contribution to the Scottish Parliament. Some members will be forgiven for being somewhat overawed by the so-called calibre in the SNP ranks. For example, Duncan Hamilton is the fearless world debating champion from Bearsden. I have stayed in Springburn all my life and I have never known a fearless fighting champion from Bearsden, so we have already learned something in this Parliament. The proposed legislation sets down foundations for the future. Donald Dewar is right in saying that it has been a long road and one from which we cannot be diverted. My constituents will welcome transport legislation. Gone are the days of bus companies being able to cherry-pick profitable routes. People want us to make a difference in transport matters. I look forward to that and to local authorities having a dominant role in ensuring that the legislation is delivered. We have made clear that we will not accept underperformance in schools. I have been most impressed by the calibre of teaching in schools in my constituency and I look forward to working with many of the teaching staff, but we must make it clear that we will not accept underperformance. Trish Godman touched on the issue of drugs education. I subscribe to her points of view. I agree that young people should be the focus of examining the best ways of improving drugs education. In particular, I am concerned that we have not gone to young people to ask them about the best ways of getting involved in drugs education and the best ways of lecturing to them on how we can deal with drugs. Local government will welcome the proposals to scrutinise it, but we should remember the hard work that councillors do and the commitment they show in many councils, for example Glasgow City Council, which is at the cutting edge of council services provision and is required to take difficult and complex decisions. My constituency has some of the highest unemployment in Scotland. I look forward to the Scottish Parliament dealing with that matter.", "EditedTextHTML": "I understand that a number of SNP members, particularly Kenny Gibson, have been awaiting my contribution to the Scottish Parliament. Some members will be forgiven for being somewhat overawed by the so-called calibre in the SNP ranks. For example, Duncan Hamilton is the fearless world debating champion from Bearsden. I have stayed in Springburn all my life and I have never known a fearless fighting champion from Bearsden, so we have already learned something in this Parliament.

The proposed legislation sets down foundations for the future. Donald Dewar is right in saying that it has been a long road and one from which we cannot be diverted. My constituents will welcome transport legislation. Gone are the days of bus companies being able to cherry-pick profitable routes. People want us to make a difference in transport matters. I look forward to that and to local authorities having a dominant role in ensuring that the legislation is delivered.

We have made clear that we will not accept underperformance in schools. I have been most impressed by the calibre of teaching in schools in my constituency and I look forward to working with many of the teaching staff, but we must make it clear that we will not accept underperformance.

Trish Godman touched on the issue of drugs education. I subscribe to her points of view. I agree that young people should be the focus of examining the best ways of improving drugs education. In particular, I am concerned that we have not gone to young people to ask them about the best ways of getting involved in drugs education and the best ways of lecturing to them on how we can deal with drugs.

Local government will welcome the proposals to scrutinise it, but we should remember the hard work that councillors do and the commitment they show in many councils, for example Glasgow City Council, which is at the cutting edge of council services provision and is required to take difficult and complex decisions.

My constituency has some of the highest unemployment in Scotland. I look forward to the Scottish Parliament dealing with that matter.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C704656", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 281.0, "ContributionID": 704656, "EditedText": "Can Dr Jackson's microphone be switched on.", "EditedTextHTML": "Can Dr Jackson's microphone be switched on.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704667", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 304.0, "ContributionID": 704667, "EditedText": "On resuming—", "EditedTextHTML": "On resuming—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C704672", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 314.0, "ContributionID": 704672, "EditedText": "Before I call the next speaker, I should like to say that if members stick to about four minutes each, everybody should be able to speak. If members go much beyond that, there will be many disappointed people at the end of the afternoon.", "EditedTextHTML": "Before I call the next speaker, I should like to say that if members stick to about four minutes each, everybody should be able to speak. If members go much beyond that, there will be many disappointed people at the end of the afternoon.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C704680", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 332.0, "ContributionID": 704680, "EditedText": "I can describe the environmental benefits without doubt. Consider the fumes that are emitted by slow-moving traffic, travelling in stops and starts through Thornliebank. I know that the same thing happened in Pollok, as I used to travel that way from Ayr to Glasgow. There has been a great environmental improvement. Think of the children in Glasgow who had difficulty crossing roads because of the traffic. Think of the improvement for them. If Tommy Sheridan would like, I could list improvements for a week, but I will not. When I read \"Partnership for Scotland\", the commitment to law and order that it expressed gave me reason to rejoice. It said: \"We will take action to prevent the causes of crime . . . We will be tough on crime and the criminals who blight our communities.\" However, nothing in the First Minister's statement reflected that commitment. The Executive might say that crime figures are going down and that we do not have the same problems that we had a year or two ago, but I ask the Deputy First Minister to look at the figures. Between 1990 and 1997, crime figures went down. In 1998, however, that trend was reversed. Nonsexual violence was up by 10 per cent; serious assault by 9 per cent; crimes involving offensive weapons by 13 per cent; and robbery by 9 per cent—once again, I could go on to cover a range of serious issues. People are concerned about living their lives peaceably and in reasonable conditions. The First Minister and the Executive have lost great opportunities on law and order.The document also said that the Executive would \"support victims of crime.\" However, we heard nothing about the victims of crime today. No finances have been committed, whereas the previous Government provided a means of giving financial support to victims of crime. Over the past two years, funding for the victims of crime has gone down. Mr Wallace looks puzzled, but I understand that it has gone down quite considerably. What has the Executive achieved? It promised to appoint a Minister for Justice and has done so, but his voice has not been heard by the First Minister—there has been nothing about the much- needed changes in the judicial process. The document promised that the Executive would ensure a strong and effective police force, but what has happened to the police force since 1997? The number of police officers has been reduced. Where is the commitment to doing something about that? We are told that 100 police officers will be found to deal with drug enforcement. That is true, but they will be taken from the existing forces. There was no comment in the statement that would suggest a reversal of the process of reducing police numbers. That will give much concern to many people. The document also promised to speed up the operation of the courts system, but we heard nothing about that from the First Minister. There is a real need there, and I am pleased to see that the Minister for Justice agrees with me on that point. Perhaps he can deal with that when he sums up. Many members have raised the issue of drug misuse; once again I commend the comments of Trish Godman and others on that issue. I am very disappointed that the Labour party has not lived up to some of its promises, particularly those made in its manifesto. It says: \"The Scottish Parliament should introduce new powers of confiscation to strip convicted drug dealers of their assets.\" Where is that in the First Minister's statement? Dr Simpson said that, in many ways, there is no need for new legislation to deal with the problem of drugs. He is right, of course, but this is an important issue and there is no mention of it in the First Minister's statement. That is something of which we should take great account. There are other points of note in the Labour manifesto, which says: \"we will protect communities from sex offenders.\"The previous Government certainly had intentions along those lines: the two-strikes-and-you-are-out policy. When that policy was introduced, Conservative members at Westminster were ridiculed, just as I was ridiculed about my views on the tagging of offenders. However, being one in support of tagging offenders versus 101 against, I am delighted to see that the Labour Government signed up for that policy and that it has become practice. Perhaps some of the things that I have mentioned—and others that I will discuss when more time allows—will be taken on board by the Executive and by the Labour party. If they are serious about justice meaning something, about people staking their claim for justice in Scotland, we will be very pleased.", "EditedTextHTML": "I can describe the environmental benefits without doubt. Consider the fumes that are emitted by slow-moving traffic, travelling in stops and starts through Thornliebank. I know that the same thing happened in Pollok, as I used to travel that way from Ayr to Glasgow. There has been a great environmental improvement.

Think of the children in Glasgow who had difficulty crossing roads because of the traffic. Think of the improvement for them. If Tommy Sheridan would like, I could list improvements for a week, but I will not.

When I read \"Partnership for Scotland\", the commitment to law and order that it expressed gave me reason to rejoice. It said:

\"We will take action to prevent the causes of crime . . . We will be tough on crime and the criminals who blight our communities.\"

However, nothing in the First Minister's statement reflected that commitment. The Executive might say that crime figures are going down and that we do not have the same problems that we had a year or two ago, but I ask the Deputy First Minister to look at the figures. Between 1990 and 1997, crime figures went down. In 1998, however, that trend was reversed. Nonsexual violence was up by 10 per cent; serious assault by 9 per cent; crimes involving offensive weapons by 13 per cent; and robbery by 9 per cent—once again, I could go on to cover a range of serious issues. People are concerned about living their lives peaceably and in reasonable conditions. The First Minister and the Executive

have lost great opportunities on law and order.

The document also said that the Executive would \"support victims of crime.\" However, we heard nothing about the victims of crime today. No finances have been committed, whereas the previous Government provided a means of giving financial support to victims of crime. Over the past two years, funding for the victims of crime has gone down. Mr Wallace looks puzzled, but I understand that it has gone down quite considerably.

What has the Executive achieved? It promised to appoint a Minister for Justice and has done so, but his voice has not been heard by the First Minister—there has been nothing about the much- needed changes in the judicial process.

The document promised that the Executive would ensure a strong and effective police force, but what has happened to the police force since 1997? The number of police officers has been reduced. Where is the commitment to doing something about that? We are told that 100 police officers will be found to deal with drug enforcement. That is true, but they will be taken from the existing forces. There was no comment in the statement that would suggest a reversal of the process of reducing police numbers. That will give much concern to many people.

The document also promised to speed up the operation of the courts system, but we heard nothing about that from the First Minister. There is a real need there, and I am pleased to see that the Minister for Justice agrees with me on that point. Perhaps he can deal with that when he sums up.

Many members have raised the issue of drug misuse; once again I commend the comments of Trish Godman and others on that issue. I am very disappointed that the Labour party has not lived up to some of its promises, particularly those made in its manifesto. It says:

\"The Scottish Parliament should introduce new powers of confiscation to strip convicted drug dealers of their assets.\"

Where is that in the First Minister's statement? Dr Simpson said that, in many ways, there is no need for new legislation to deal with the problem of drugs. He is right, of course, but this is an important issue and there is no mention of it in the First Minister's statement. That is something of which we should take great account.

There are other points of note in the Labour manifesto, which says:

\"we will protect communities from sex offenders.\"

The previous Government certainly had intentions along those lines: the two-strikes-and-you-are-out policy. When that policy was introduced, Conservative members at Westminster were ridiculed, just as I was ridiculed about my views on the tagging of offenders. However, being one in support of tagging offenders versus 101 against, I am delighted to see that the Labour Government signed up for that policy and that it has become practice.

Perhaps some of the things that I have mentioned—and others that I will discuss when more time allows—will be taken on board by the Executive and by the Labour party. If they are serious about justice meaning something, about people staking their claim for justice in Scotland, we will be very pleased.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2044E178P334C704682", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jenkins, Ian", "ID": 2044, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ian Jenkins", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ian Jenkins (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 337.0, "ContributionID": 704682, "EditedText": "I will be brief, Sir David. First, I offer you the congratulations and best wishes of your former constituents in Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale on your appointment as Presiding Officer. I am sookin in with the boss. Sir David, your appointment has been a source of universal pride and pleasure in the constituency and I am very proud to deliver those good wishes in person. Applause. I want to comment briefly on education. Mr Dewar offers us a bill to raise standards in Scottish schools. I would like to point out that acts of Parliament do not raise standards, ministers do not raise standards and even local councils do not raise standards; teachers and parents raise standards. I am worried because the mood music around the issue is not right. We cannot raise standards in schools unless we have a motivated and committed teaching force. We do not motivate our teachers by denigrating them as many Government ministers have done for years. We do not motivate our teachers by confrontation on salaries and conditions—a dangerous prospect on the horizon. We do not raise standards by backing national testing—which does not test what it is supposed to and which gives results that are unsafe—or by setting standards that are plucked out of the air and that people have then to negotiate away. We do not raise standards by issuing statistics through which schools can be placed in order and which demotivate schools that, however hard the teachers try to do their job, are not near the top of the list. Another matter on the horizon troubles me deeply: the higher still programme. The programme is going ahead, but there are real problems with higher still English. It is not going ahead as it should be because the professionals— the people who are in schools all day, every day— seriously believe that there are difficulties in the content, delivery and assessment of that course. Moreover, there are flaws in the examination system and worries about its validity and integrity. Outside influences have too many opportunities to interfere to make the results safe. Higher still is the flagship of the Scottish education system, and something needs to be done to restore the confidence of the teachers, as well as, in the long term, that of the public and of the pupils who will sit the examination. We are talking about the introduction of new bills for education and about consultation, so it is important that teachers—not just the Educational Institute of Scotland, of which I am proud to be a member, but teachers on the ground—are asked about how things should be done. Their views must be taken seriously. I assure members that people complain about higher still English not because they are skiving, but because they are worried about their professional status. That problem needs to be addressed. The Executive and the Parliament need to take account of the professional views of teachers both before legislation is introduced and during all our other negotiations with them and others in the education system. The First Minister spoke about the expansion of pre-school education. I do not know exactly what the terms of that expansion will be, but consultation on that issue might also have been helpful. In rural areas, there is a real problem with nursery places for pre-school pupils. For example, the kids from Walkerburn are given places in Innerleithen, but there is nothing in the legislation to make local authorities bus them there. Local authorities have to help children to travel to school, but nursery pupils get nothing. There are young, perhaps single, mothers whose kids have nursery places 12 or 14 miles away, and yet no one has thought that they need transport. That is the kind of important issue that we can affect if our procedures change to give people who are concerned a real chance to make an input before the arrangements are finalised and the legislation is put on to the statute book.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will be brief, Sir David. First, I offer you the congratulations and best wishes of your former constituents in Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale on your appointment as Presiding Officer. I am sookin in with the boss. Sir David, your appointment has been a source of universal pride and pleasure in the constituency and I am very proud to deliver those good wishes in person. [Applause.]

I want to comment briefly on education. Mr Dewar offers us a bill to raise standards in Scottish schools. I would like to point out that acts of Parliament do not raise standards, ministers do not raise standards and even local councils do not raise standards; teachers and parents raise standards. I am worried because the mood music around the issue is not right.

We cannot raise standards in schools unless we have a motivated and committed teaching force. We do not motivate our teachers by denigrating them as many Government ministers have done for years. We do not motivate our teachers by confrontation on salaries and conditions—a dangerous prospect on the horizon. We do not raise standards by backing national testing—which does not test what it is supposed to and which gives results that are unsafe—or by setting standards that are plucked out of the air and that people have then to negotiate away. We do not raise standards by issuing statistics through which schools can be placed in order and which demotivate schools that, however hard the teachers try to do their job, are not near the top of the list.

Another matter on the horizon troubles me deeply: the higher still programme. The programme is going ahead, but there are real problems with higher still English. It is not going ahead as it should be because the professionals— the people who are in schools all day, every day— seriously believe that there are difficulties in the content, delivery and assessment of that course.

Moreover, there are flaws in the examination system and worries about its validity and integrity. Outside influences have too many opportunities to interfere to make the results safe. Higher still is the flagship of the Scottish education system, and something needs to be done to restore the confidence of the teachers, as well as, in the long term, that of the public and of the pupils who will sit the examination.

We are talking about the introduction of new bills for education and about consultation, so it is important that teachers—not just the Educational Institute of Scotland, of which I am proud to be a member, but teachers on the ground—are asked about how things should be done. Their views must be taken seriously. I assure members that people complain about higher still English not because they are skiving, but because they are worried about their professional status. That problem needs to be addressed. The Executive and the Parliament need to take account of the professional views of teachers both before legislation is introduced and during all our other negotiations with them and others in the education system.

The First Minister spoke about the expansion of pre-school education. I do not know exactly what the terms of that expansion will be, but consultation on that issue might also have been helpful. In rural areas, there is a real problem with nursery places for pre-school pupils. For example, the kids from Walkerburn are given places in Innerleithen, but there is nothing in the legislation to make local authorities bus them there. Local authorities have to help children to travel to school, but nursery pupils get nothing. There are young, perhaps single, mothers whose kids have nursery places 12 or 14 miles away, and yet no one has thought that they need transport.

That is the kind of important issue that we can affect if our procedures change to give people who are concerned a real chance to make an input before the arrangements are finalised and the legislation is put on to the statute book.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2112E192P495C704689", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacAskill, Kenny", "ID": 2112, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenny MacAskill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Kenny MacAskill (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 353.0, "ContributionID": 704689, "EditedText": "I face two charges. The first is to make a few comments on behalf of my party. The second is Ms Curran's charge that I belong to a privileged elite. I want to address the latter charge first, as it has been taxing my mind all morning. I wondered what led to my being charged with membership of a privileged elite—perhaps it was my educational background. As I attended Linlithgow Academy— the same alma mater as that of the leader of the SNP—I thought that Ms Curran's charge could not possibly be justified, as the leader of the Labour party went to Fettes College.", "EditedTextHTML": "I face two charges. The first is to make a few comments on behalf of my party. The second is Ms Curran's charge that I belong to a privileged elite. I want to address the latter charge first, as it has been taxing my mind all morning. I wondered what led to my being charged with membership of a privileged elite—perhaps it was my educational background. As I attended Linlithgow Academy— the same alma mater as that of the leader of the SNP—I thought that Ms Curran's charge could not possibly be justified, as the leader of the Labour party went to Fettes College.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2112E192P495C704697", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacAskill, Kenny", "ID": 2112, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenny MacAskill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr MacAskill: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 369.0, "ContributionID": 704697, "EditedText": "After 20 years in law and a career in politics, I am not prepared to comment on anything that I have not seen. My initial comment on the substance of the debate was going to be along the usual lines of \"Where's the beef?\", but I chose to change that given the absence of any beef-on-the-bone legislation. Like me, the First Minister is a lawyer, so I thought that it would be simpler to say that his statement was insufficient and lacking in specification. The First Minister said:\"We will introduce a bill to allow the creation of national parks in Scotland.\" Having listened to Mr Tosh and Dr Jackson, the SNP is open-minded and prepared to be persuaded on the matter. However, what does the statement tell us? We all know that Scotland's natural heritage is unique and that we must manage it. The First Minister went on to say that there would be enabling legislation, but all that he told us was that the first national park would be Loch Lomond and the Trossachs. I am not a betting man—I leave that to my leader, who is a syndicated columnist on that subject—but I would have thought that, on a wager, it was a nap that the first national park would be Loch Lomond and the Trossachs. It was hardly going to be Craigmillar or Castlemilk. However, that is all that the First Minister told us. Before we make a proper judgment on the national park, we want to know who will fund it and what the funding will be. Who will control it and how will it be administered? To whom will the people who control the parks be accountable and what democratic input will individuals, councils and this Parliament have? The First Minister answered none of those questions. All that we were told was that the national park was to be located at Loch Lomond and the Trossachs. We on this side of the chamber—the privilegedsection—worry that the national park will be another quango crammed with Labour cronies. We have seen how some quangos have operated and know that various individuals are currently out of employment. I saw last night that ex-councillor Nolan may be losing a job. Perhaps he will be interested in moving from Craigmillar to Loch Lomond and the Trossachs. A member of the press corps told me that transport would be the big issue and that I was fortunate to have been charged with the responsibility of being transport spokesman for my party. I picked up a copy of Mr Dewar's statement at 10 pm last night because I was so worried about the heavyweight legislation that was going to be in it and what I would have to comment on. It said: \"We will introduce a bill to address Scotland's many and diverse transport challenges.\" I take that as self-evident. It went on to say:\"We need to generate the resources required to deliver a transport system that will be fit for the 21st century.\" I do not think that anybody in the privileged or underprivileged sections in this chamber will disagree with that statement. The First Minister also said: \"We need local solutions to local problems, within a coherent strategic framework.\" There are local problems but we have to go beyond them. There are many important points missing from the First Minister's statement. At lunchtime, I and others, including some Liberal Democrats, met a delegation from Skye and Kyle Against Tolls who complained about the injustice of the imposition of the Skye bridge tolls on Skye and Lochalsh and on Scotland as a whole. Despite a clear and unequivocal promise by some members in this chamber, there is nothing in the proposals about eradicating the iniquities of the Skye bridge tolls, which are the highest in Europe. The Liberal Democrats should hang their heads in shame. In the proposed legislation there is a road-user charge and a parking tax. The SNP do not disagree with those proposals—they are fine in principle—but perhaps there is too much stick and not enough carrot. There is a lot about the taxation that may be levied and nothing about how it will be used. We want answers to two questions. Will the revenue from the taxation be ring-fenced for transport? If it is ring-fenced, will it be for sustainable transport or, like cigarette levies and excise duty, will it go into the Exchequer pot and not be used to make the improvements in public transport that Scotland requires? The statement made no mention of money to improve the infrastructure in cities and contained nothing about a strategy for public transport and how to deal with the anomaly of high petrol taxes in rural areas. The transport proposals do not make a clear national strategy. There is no coherent vision for Scotland as we go into the 21st century and the next millennium. The statement was tawdry and tatty and contained nothing more than we could expect from Strathclyde region writ large. It was not a national document; it was a glorified regional transport portfolio. Labour has failed to recognise that. We recognise that, in this Parliament, there are expenditure limitations on any party in the Executive. However, we are aware of the money that individuals in Scotland contribute through excise duty and the highest petrol and diesel prices in Europe. We are also aware of the money that is contributed to the Treasury through revenues from oil resources off our shores. We know that the transport and environmental situation is shabby and shambolic and will not be improved substantially as we go into the next millennium. We want greater use of Exchequer money. Why is it that the M25 orbital motorway can be built using public Exchequer funding? Why is it that London Transport and the Jubilee line can be created out of public Exchequer funding? Why is it that the leader of the Labour party can talk about the importance of building the infrastructure that will allow people to travel to the millennium dome? All of that is happening when there is virtually no provision for infrastructure in Scotland at the macro or micro level. That is not a matter of taking a bird in the hand; it is a matter of being given chickenfeed.", "EditedTextHTML": "After 20 years in law and a career in politics, I am not prepared to comment on anything that I have not seen.

My initial comment on the substance of the debate was going to be along the usual lines of \"Where's the beef?\", but I chose to change that given the absence of any beef-on-the-bone legislation. Like me, the First Minister is a lawyer, so I thought that it would be simpler to say that his statement was insufficient and lacking in specification.

The First Minister said:

\"We will introduce a bill to allow the creation of national parks in Scotland.\"

Having listened to Mr Tosh and Dr Jackson, the SNP is open-minded and prepared to be persuaded on the matter. However, what does the statement tell us? We all know that Scotland's natural heritage is unique and that we must manage it. The First Minister went on to say that there would be enabling legislation, but all that he told us was that the first national park would be Loch Lomond and the Trossachs. I am not a betting man—I leave that to my leader, who is a syndicated columnist on that subject—but I would have thought that, on a wager, it was a nap that the first national park would be Loch Lomond and the Trossachs. It was hardly going to be Craigmillar or Castlemilk. However, that is all that the First Minister told us.

Before we make a proper judgment on the national park, we want to know who will fund it and what the funding will be. Who will control it and how will it be administered? To whom will the people who control the parks be accountable and what democratic input will individuals, councils and this Parliament have? The First Minister answered none of those questions. All that we were told was that the national park was to be located at Loch Lomond and the Trossachs.

We on this side of the chamber—the privileged

section—worry that the national park will be another quango crammed with Labour cronies. We have seen how some quangos have operated and know that various individuals are currently out of employment. I saw last night that ex-councillor Nolan may be losing a job. Perhaps he will be interested in moving from Craigmillar to Loch Lomond and the Trossachs.

A member of the press corps told me that transport would be the big issue and that I was fortunate to have been charged with the responsibility of being transport spokesman for my party. I picked up a copy of Mr Dewar's statement at 10 pm last night because I was so worried about the heavyweight legislation that was going to be in it and what I would have to comment on. It said:

\"We will introduce a bill to address Scotland's many and diverse transport challenges.\"

I take that as self-evident. It went on to say:

\"We need to generate the resources required to deliver a transport system that will be fit for the 21st century.\"

I do not think that anybody in the privileged or underprivileged sections in this chamber will disagree with that statement. The First Minister also said:

\"We need local solutions to local problems, within a coherent strategic framework.\"

There are local problems but we have to go beyond them.

There are many important points missing from the First Minister's statement. At lunchtime, I and others, including some Liberal Democrats, met a delegation from Skye and Kyle Against Tolls who complained about the injustice of the imposition of the Skye bridge tolls on Skye and Lochalsh and on Scotland as a whole. Despite a clear and unequivocal promise by some members in this chamber, there is nothing in the proposals about eradicating the iniquities of the Skye bridge tolls, which are the highest in Europe. The Liberal Democrats should hang their heads in shame.

In the proposed legislation there is a road-user charge and a parking tax. The SNP do not disagree with those proposals—they are fine in principle—but perhaps there is too much stick and not enough carrot. There is a lot about the taxation that may be levied and nothing about how it will be used. We want answers to two questions. Will the revenue from the taxation be ring-fenced for transport? If it is ring-fenced, will it be for sustainable transport or, like cigarette levies and excise duty, will it go into the Exchequer pot and not be used to make the improvements in public transport that Scotland requires?

The statement made no mention of money to improve the infrastructure in cities and contained nothing about a strategy for public transport and how to deal with the anomaly of high petrol taxes in rural areas. The transport proposals do not make a clear national strategy. There is no coherent vision for Scotland as we go into the 21st century and the next millennium. The statement was tawdry and tatty and contained nothing more than we could expect from Strathclyde region writ large. It was not a national document; it was a glorified regional transport portfolio. Labour has failed to recognise that.

We recognise that, in this Parliament, there are expenditure limitations on any party in the Executive. However, we are aware of the money that individuals in Scotland contribute through excise duty and the highest petrol and diesel prices in Europe. We are also aware of the money that is contributed to the Treasury through revenues from oil resources off our shores. We know that the transport and environmental situation is shabby and shambolic and will not be improved substantially as we go into the next millennium.

We want greater use of Exchequer money. Why is it that the M25 orbital motorway can be built using public Exchequer funding? Why is it that London Transport and the Jubilee line can be created out of public Exchequer funding? Why is it that the leader of the Labour party can talk about the importance of building the infrastructure that will allow people to travel to the millennium dome? All of that is happening when there is virtually no provision for infrastructure in Scotland at the macro or micro level. That is not a matter of taking a bird in the hand; it is a matter of being given chickenfeed.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1820E139P227C704699", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Curran, Margaret", "ID": 1820, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Baillieston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Curran", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Curran: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 374.0, "ContributionID": 704699, "EditedText": "I am very flattered by that remark.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am very flattered by that remark.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1893E47P78C704706", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Johnstone, Alex", "ID": 1893, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Johnstone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Johnstone: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 388.0, "ContributionID": 704706, "EditedText": "I am absolutely delighted that George Lyon has taken the opportunity to demonstrate the expertise that exists among Liberal Democrats. I recommend that the Government uses it. However, I would put a question mark over his record because of the way in which he changed his opinion on beef on the bone overnight in order to accommodate the agreement in which he is involved. I continue to be disappointed by the fact that the opportunity has not been taken to do something for Scotland's farming industry. That missed opportunity has been highlighted by the fact that much of this proposed legislation will impact on Scotland's farmers indirectly and that nothing has been done for them directly.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am absolutely delighted that George Lyon has taken the opportunity to demonstrate the expertise that exists among Liberal Democrats. I recommend that the Government uses it. However, I would put a question mark over his record because of the way

in which he changed his opinion on beef on the bone overnight in order to accommodate the agreement in which he is involved.

I continue to be disappointed by the fact that the opportunity has not been taken to do something for Scotland's farming industry. That missed opportunity has been highlighted by the fact that much of this proposed legislation will impact on Scotland's farmers indirectly and that nothing has been done for them directly.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C704713", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 404.0, "ContributionID": 704713, "EditedText": "Please address the chair, Mr Swinney.", "EditedTextHTML": "Please address the chair, Mr Swinney.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C704709", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 396.0, "ContributionID": 704709, "EditedText": "Does Mr Wilson accept that there is not a majority in this chamber for raising taxes?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does Mr Wilson accept that there is not a majority in this chamber for raising taxes?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C704710", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 398.0, "ContributionID": 704710, "EditedText": "I accept the fact that parties should come to this chamber with their manifesto commitments and—Interruption.—attempt at all times to see them through.", "EditedTextHTML": "I accept the fact that parties should come to this chamber with their manifesto commitments and—[Interruption.]—attempt at all times to see them through.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C704715", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 408.0, "ContributionID": 704715, "EditedText": "Once again, we will wait for a free vote. I thank John for his help and guidance on the issue. Why is it that the partnership agreement has reversed on those issues? Is it because Keith Raffan's party has given up because it cannot secure a majority? Does his party give up its principles when it thinks that no one agrees with it? Are Liberal Democrats that pliable or supple? I suggest that, given Mr Raffan's past experience in other parties, the answer must be yes.", "EditedTextHTML": "Once again, we will wait for a free vote. I thank John for his help and guidance on the issue.

Why is it that the partnership agreement has reversed on those issues? Is it because Keith Raffan's party has given up because it cannot secure a majority? Does his party give up its principles when it thinks that no one agrees with it? Are Liberal Democrats that pliable or supple? I suggest that, given Mr Raffan's past experience in other parties, the answer must be yes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2140E187P335C704716", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Rumbles, Mike", "ID": 2140, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Rumbles", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Mike Rumbles (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD) rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 410.0, "ContributionID": 704716, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C704717", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 412.0, "ContributionID": 704717, "EditedText": "Mr Rumbles can intervene in a minute but I will continue for a short time. For example, the partnership agreement announced £80 million of extra spending, about half the amount of Liberal Democrat commitments during the election. The explanation for where that money came from was around 25 words. Where is the detail of where that money has come from? How can there be an announcement without telling us where the money has come from? I will finish on the issue of the private finance initiative and public partnerships. During the election we proposed a Scottish public service trust to fund public services by the issuing of, for example, low-priced bonds on the open market, and holding services in trust for the nation. The Minister for Children and Education scoffed at that in a press release on the Sunday afterwards in a somewhat ill-informed comment. I was delighted to read the document \"Pathfinders to the Parliament\", the business agenda launched by Lord Macdonald of Tradeston three weeks ago. On the issue of transport, page 68, paragraph 3 states that one \"idea is the early launch of a Scottish Transport Bond\".Sounds familiar.\"The Bond would bear interest at near gilt-edged rates which are much cheaper than the venture capital costs of PFI funding.\" Sounds familiar.\"We believe this innovative financial arrangement should not count as part of PSBR\". Thanks very much for that endorsement of Scottish public service trusts. Maybe some of the back benchers in the Labour party who opposed PFI, such as Mr McAllion who made the statement during the election that PFI was another Tory idea living on, would do well to try to have open minds in government. If we can give the Executive any ideas and help with its research on that matter, we would be delighted to do so. In closing, I say to the Government that a lot more substance and a lot more open minds would be useful in this legislative programme. Talk and spinning got the Government through an election campaign, but it will not get it through four years of government with a proper Opposition, which we expect to be.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Rumbles can intervene in a minute but I will continue for a short time.

For example, the partnership agreement announced £80 million of extra spending, about half the amount of Liberal Democrat commitments during the election. The explanation for where that money came from was around 25 words. Where is the detail of where that money has come from? How can there be an announcement without telling us where the money has come from?

I will finish on the issue of the private finance initiative and public partnerships. During the election we proposed a Scottish public service trust to fund public services by the issuing of, for example, low-priced bonds on the open market, and holding services in trust for the nation. The Minister for Children and Education scoffed at that in a press release on the Sunday afterwards in a somewhat ill-informed comment. I was delighted to read the document \"Pathfinders to the Parliament\", the business agenda launched by Lord Macdonald of Tradeston three weeks ago. On the issue of transport, page 68, paragraph 3 states that one

\"idea is the early launch of a Scottish Transport Bond\".

Sounds familiar.

\"The Bond would bear interest at near gilt-edged rates which are much cheaper than the venture capital costs of PFI funding.\"

Sounds familiar.

\"We believe this innovative financial arrangement should not count as part of PSBR\".

Thanks very much for that endorsement of Scottish public service trusts. Maybe some of the back benchers in the Labour party who opposed PFI, such as Mr McAllion who made the statement during the election that PFI was another Tory idea living on, would do well to try to have open minds in government. If we can give the Executive any ideas and help with its research on that matter, we would be delighted to do so.

In closing, I say to the Government that a lot more substance and a lot more open minds would be useful in this legislative programme. Talk and spinning got the Government through an election campaign, but it will not get it through four years of government with a proper Opposition, which we expect to be.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C704724", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 428.0, "ContributionID": 704724, "EditedText": "Margaret Vass, the depute director of city housing in Glasgow, said, when Glasgow was offering houses for the Kosovar refugees— and I make no criticism of that—that there was an abundance of housing in Glasgow, and that this was available for the refugees. If there is such a housing shortage in Mr Sheridan's area, why did she make such a statement?", "EditedTextHTML": "Margaret Vass, the depute director of city housing in Glasgow, said, when Glasgow was offering houses for the Kosovar refugees— and I make no criticism of that—that there was an abundance of housing in Glasgow, and that this was available for the refugees. If there is such a housing shortage in Mr Sheridan's area, why did she make such a statement?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C704725", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 430.0, "ContributionID": 704725, "EditedText": "That is why we need a housing committee and more informed debate, because then Phil would realise that the homelessness problem in Scotland is different in rural and urban areas. In urban areas the problem is to do with the standard of housing that is available, not the number of houses that are available. The difficulty that we have to address in cities like Glasgow is that we have a great many houses, but they need serious renovation and repair. Money was spent on upgrading houses in the Red Road flats to provide homes for the Kosovar refugees, which I am sure Phil will be pleased about. He wants to intervene again.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is why we need a housing committee and more informed debate, because then Phil would realise that the homelessness problem in Scotland is different in rural and urban areas. In urban areas the problem is to do with the standard of housing that is available, not the number of houses that are available. The difficulty that we have to address in cities like Glasgow is that we have a great many houses, but they need serious renovation and repair. Money was spent on upgrading houses in the Red Road flats to provide homes for the Kosovar refugees, which I am sure Phil will be pleased about. He wants to intervene again.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C704726", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 432.0, "ContributionID": 704726, "EditedText": "Thank you for letting me come back. If that is the case, is the honourable gentleman saying that it is far better that people sleep on the streets rather than in the houses in Glasgow that are available for let?", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you for letting me come back. If that is the case, is the honourable gentleman saying that it is far better that people sleep on the streets rather than in the houses in Glasgow that are available for let?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C704729", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 438.0, "ContributionID": 704729, "EditedText": "I will finish this point, Mr Presiding Officer. Last week in Glasgow a young child, Natasha Smith, died tragically. She fell out a window and we know from the committee of inquiry's progress so far that the lack of safety catches on windows in council homes is a serious problem. Donald asks when the Parliament will actually do something. I ask the First Minister or any other Administration members here, if they will on 2 July announce the repeal—", "EditedTextHTML": "I will finish this point, Mr Presiding Officer. Last week in Glasgow a young child, Natasha Smith, died tragically. She fell out a window and we know from the committee of inquiry's progress so far that the lack of safety catches on windows in council homes is a serious problem.

Donald asks when the Parliament will actually do something. I ask the First Minister or any other Administration members here, if they will on 2 July announce the repeal—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C704731", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 442.0, "ContributionID": 704731, "EditedText": "Order.", "EditedTextHTML": "Order.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C704733", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 446.0, "ContributionID": 704733, "EditedText": "Order. We cannot have speeches in the middle of other speeches. Interventions must be short. I realise that Ms Elder feels strongly about it, but they must be short.", "EditedTextHTML": "Order. We cannot have speeches in the middle of other speeches. Interventions must be short. I realise that Ms Elder feels strongly about it, but they must be short.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C704737", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 454.0, "ContributionID": 704737, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1770E82P108C704739", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Thomson, Elaine", "ID": 1770, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Thomson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Elaine Thomson (Aberdeen North) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 459.0, "ContributionID": 704739, "EditedText": "Although there were many valuable proposals in the First Minister's statement this morning, particularly welcome the measures in the forthcoming transport bill. Aberdeen City Council has been at the forefront of developing innovative and forward-looking transport strategies, using both bus priority measures and park-and-ride schemes, and I am delighted that that has been recognised. Aberdeen has one of the fastest-growing rates of car ownership in Scotland, which is increasingly causing severe congestion. A local transport strategy has now been developed to meet that challenge and to meet the needs of some 40 per cent of the population who do not have access to a car. The park-and-ride schemes and the bus lanes are integral to that policy. The route from the Bridge of Don, in the northern part of my constituency, is increasingly heavily used; its use is growing by some 20 per cent a year. Aberdeenshire Council is now considering running a similar park-and-ride scheme from Ellon, a major commuter town to the north of Aberdeen. This Parliament's transport bill will support and extend the efforts of local councils and transport operators, to allow better long-term planning and the regulation of bus services. That would mean, for example, allowing the development of services from Aberdeen to the industrial estates around the city, where many people work, while improving the flow of traffic for those who must use their cars. The way for the future has to be an increased use of buses and other forms of public transport that are of high quality and that provide a frequent service that is accessible to everybody; for instance, through the use of kneeling buses. That will be a plus for the environment and will improve the flow of traffic. From personal experience, I know how bus lanes can improve journey times, making the bus the simplest and most stress-free way of travelling. However, the use of buses is still declining, and that situation needs to be reversed. The proposals that have been outlined today will provide the necessary framework to do that, a key feature of which will be the development of partnerships between all the people who are involved—local authorities, transport operators and, most important, transport users—to provide seamless journeys with through-ticketing and well- thought-out timetabling. I look forward to the legislation becoming law and meeting the transport needs of the Scottish population in the 21st century.", "EditedTextHTML": "Although there were many valuable proposals in the First Minister's statement this morning, particularly welcome the measures in the forthcoming transport bill. Aberdeen City Council has been at the forefront of developing innovative and forward-looking transport strategies, using both bus priority measures and park-and-ride schemes, and I am delighted that that has been recognised.

Aberdeen has one of the fastest-growing rates of car ownership in Scotland, which is increasingly causing severe congestion. A local transport strategy has now been developed to meet that challenge and to meet the needs of some 40 per cent of the population who do not have access to a car. The park-and-ride schemes and the bus lanes are integral to that policy. The route from the Bridge of Don, in the northern part of my constituency, is increasingly heavily used; its use is growing by some 20 per cent a year. Aberdeenshire Council is now considering running a similar park-and-ride scheme from Ellon, a major commuter town to the north of Aberdeen. This Parliament's transport bill will support and extend the efforts of local councils and transport operators, to allow better long-term planning and the regulation of bus services. That would mean, for example, allowing the development of services from Aberdeen to the industrial estates around the city, where many people work, while improving the flow of traffic for those who must use their cars.

The way for the future has to be an increased use of buses and other forms of public transport that are of high quality and that provide a frequent service that is accessible to everybody; for instance, through the use of kneeling buses. That will be a plus for the environment and will improve the flow of traffic. From personal experience, I know how bus lanes can improve journey times, making the bus the simplest and most stress-free way of travelling. However, the use of buses is still declining, and that situation needs to be reversed. The proposals that have been outlined today will provide the necessary framework to do that, a key feature of which will be the development of partnerships between all the people who are involved—local authorities, transport operators and, most important, transport users—to provide seamless journeys with through-ticketing and well- thought-out timetabling. I look forward to the legislation becoming law and meeting the transport needs of the Scottish population in the 21st century.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C704745", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Brian Monteith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 473.0, "ContributionID": 704745, "EditedText": "I am glad to hear that education is the number one priority for the Executive, although I notice that it was mentioned last. I am sure that that will not be reflected by the impetus that will be given to the bill when it is introduced and we are given more detail. Education became a key issue during the election campaign. All areas of education—not just tuition fees, but pre-school education, higher still and other issues—gained new importance, and that is welcome. Also welcome is the opportunity for greater consultation. As the Parliament does not have a second chamber to scrutinise the legislation we pass, it is all the more important that we go the extra mile to consult on and scrutinise our work on education. For that reason, I will be interested to hear the detail of what will be in the education bill. For the moment, we have only the soundbites. I notice that the bill will confirm local control of education and will include provisions to meet promises in respect of self-governing schools. I will be interested to see whether the plural applies, and that not only St Mary's Episcopal Primary School in Dunblane is included in any proposals, but that Jordanhill School in Glasgow is too. St Mary's opted to go its own way, not because it was facing closure, but because it did not agree with the development plan that Central Regional Council had in mind for it. While it has had control of its own destiny, it has managed to increase the number of teaching positions and pupils, so that there is now a waiting list. It has managed to improve standards of education through various tests, and through the yardsticks that it uses for measurement, and it has done so at a lower cost than the average cost at other schools in Stirling. It will be interesting to see the detail surrounding the debate on self-governing schools.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am glad to hear that education is the number one priority for the Executive, although I notice that it was mentioned last. I am sure that that will not be reflected by the impetus that will be given to the bill when it is introduced and we are given more detail. Education became a key issue during the election campaign. All areas of education—not just tuition fees, but pre-school education, higher still and other issues—gained new importance, and that is welcome.

Also welcome is the opportunity for greater consultation. As the Parliament does not have a second chamber to scrutinise the legislation we pass, it is all the more important that we go the extra mile to consult on and scrutinise our work on education. For that reason, I will be interested to hear the detail of what will be in the education bill. For the moment, we have only the soundbites.

I notice that the bill will confirm local control of education and will include provisions to meet promises in respect of self-governing schools. I will be interested to see whether the plural applies, and that not only St Mary's Episcopal Primary School in Dunblane is included in any proposals, but that Jordanhill School in Glasgow is too.

St Mary's opted to go its own way, not because it was facing closure, but because it did not agree with the development plan that Central Regional Council had in mind for it. While it has had control of its own destiny, it has managed to increase the number of teaching positions and pupils, so that there is now a waiting list. It has managed to improve standards of education through various tests, and through the yardsticks that it uses for measurement, and it has done so at a lower cost than the average cost at other schools in Stirling. It will be interesting to see the detail surrounding the debate on self-governing schools.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C704747", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Monteith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 477.0, "ContributionID": 704747, "EditedText": "I suggest that Dr Jackson waits until the meeting she is to have soon with St Mary's to find out the real details. She will find that the additional funding that was programmed by Central Regional Council was later spent by St Mary's, so the idea that the school was given special treatment is erroneous. I will be interested to see whether the education bill will deal with the problem of top-slicing, whereby local authorities charge an administration fee to nurseries that are contracted for services. It means, in a sense, that a new tax is introduced on the provision of municipal places by private nurseries.Similarly, I will be interested to see whether the bill tackles the problem of four-and-a-half-year-old children who are not yet ready to go to primary school and should stay at nursery school. That issue came up during the election and the Conservatives gave a commitment that funding should be available for children in that situation. I see that there are proposals to place a duty on local authorities to raise standards. We are all in favour of motherhood and apple pie, and we all want standards to be raised, but how that is proposed will be in the detail. Will local authorities be given sole responsibility for helping underperforming teachers to improve and, if they cannot improve, for removing them from the teaching profession? That debate has been going on between the Educational Institute of Scotland, the other teaching unions, the General Teaching Council for Scotland and local authorities for two or three years. I will be interested to see what line the Executive decides to take. In the short time before the new Executive was appointed, there was a variety of proposals. Whichever one the Executive favours, it will be a controversial choice because, while we need to improve teaching standards, we also need to ensure that teachers can do the job to the best of their ability and, if they cannot, that help is available to them. If, even after that, teachers cannot deliver the required standard of teaching, the profession should accept that they may have to find more suitable jobs. We should put children first. That will, in turn, raise the professional recognition and standards of teachers—and it is why the EIS is ready to meet half way on the issue and find some way to deal with a problem that is not as large as some politicians like to make out. Having looked at the issues of detail, I doubt whether many of them will be dealt with. While there will be many parts that the Conservatives can support, I have no doubt that much of the bill will show that Labour continues with its mean- spirited crusade against private provision, private initiative and plurality in our education system and that it worships the monolithic god of municipal socialism. We will continue to oppose that.", "EditedTextHTML": "I suggest that Dr Jackson waits until the meeting she is to have soon with St Mary's to find out the real details. She will find that the additional funding that was programmed by Central Regional Council was later spent by St Mary's, so the idea that the school was given special treatment is erroneous.

I will be interested to see whether the education bill will deal with the problem of top-slicing, whereby local authorities charge an administration fee to nurseries that are contracted for services. It means, in a sense, that a new tax is introduced on the provision of municipal places by private

nurseries.

Similarly, I will be interested to see whether the bill tackles the problem of four-and-a-half-year-old children who are not yet ready to go to primary school and should stay at nursery school. That issue came up during the election and the Conservatives gave a commitment that funding should be available for children in that situation.

I see that there are proposals to place a duty on local authorities to raise standards. We are all in favour of motherhood and apple pie, and we all want standards to be raised, but how that is proposed will be in the detail. Will local authorities be given sole responsibility for helping underperforming teachers to improve and, if they cannot improve, for removing them from the teaching profession? That debate has been going on between the Educational Institute of Scotland, the other teaching unions, the General Teaching Council for Scotland and local authorities for two or three years. I will be interested to see what line the Executive decides to take.

In the short time before the new Executive was appointed, there was a variety of proposals. Whichever one the Executive favours, it will be a controversial choice because, while we need to improve teaching standards, we also need to ensure that teachers can do the job to the best of their ability and, if they cannot, that help is available to them. If, even after that, teachers cannot deliver the required standard of teaching, the profession should accept that they may have to find more suitable jobs. We should put children first. That will, in turn, raise the professional recognition and standards of teachers—and it is why the EIS is ready to meet half way on the issue and find some way to deal with a problem that is not as large as some politicians like to make out.

Having looked at the issues of detail, I doubt whether many of them will be dealt with. While there will be many parts that the Conservatives can support, I have no doubt that much of the bill will show that Labour continues with its mean- spirited crusade against private provision, private initiative and plurality in our education system and that it worships the monolithic god of municipal socialism. We will continue to oppose that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4515983+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1990E181P340C704751", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robson, Euan", "ID": 1990, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Roxburgh and Berwickshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Euan Robson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Euan Robson (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 488.0, "ContributionID": 704751, "EditedText": "I particularly welcome the incapable adults bill, which will be an important piece of legislation. I agree with Roseanna Cunningham that it will attract wide support, and I am sure that we will handle it in the sympathetic manner that is necessary. I also welcome the land reform bills as an important part of the progress in updating our legal system. One slightly cautionary note about the land reform bills is that although there are clearly some serious problems in the north of Scotland, some of the issues are much less salient in the south of Scotland. Indeed, some of the large estates in the south of Scotland are the focus of much extremely valuable economic activity and of high levels of employment, so we do not necessarily have to consider a solution for the whole of Scotland. We must ensure that in solving problems in the north we do not create them in the south. I am sure that we can deal with that in consultation. On agriculture, I was interested in Alex Johnstone's speech. I think he will agree that a number of things can be done without legislation, particularly in areas such as the overshoot problems in arable aid. Those problems have been caused by an inaccurate base area, which has not been revised since it was introduced seven years ago. I am sure that the Minister for Rural Affairs will welcome some discussion on the issue. In England, there is no ceiling on the countryside premium scheme, but in Scotland there is a low ceiling. The organic incentive scheme is still delayed in Scotland. The stewardship schemes exist in England but not in Scotland. Beyond the legislative programme, much can be done by the Executive and I look forward to the Rural Affairs Minister dealing with a number of the issues.", "EditedTextHTML": "I particularly welcome the incapable adults bill, which will be an important piece of legislation. I agree with Roseanna Cunningham that it will attract wide support, and I am sure that we will handle it in the sympathetic manner that is necessary.

I also welcome the land reform bills as an important part of the progress in updating our legal system. One slightly cautionary note about the land reform bills is that although there are clearly some serious problems in the north of Scotland, some of the issues are much less salient in the south of Scotland. Indeed, some of the large estates in the south of Scotland are the focus of much extremely valuable economic activity and of high levels of employment, so we do not necessarily have to consider a solution for the whole of Scotland. We must ensure that in solving problems in the north we do not create them in the south. I am sure that we can deal with that in consultation.

On agriculture, I was interested in Alex Johnstone's speech. I think he will agree that a number of things can be done without legislation, particularly in areas such as the overshoot problems in arable aid. Those problems have been caused by an inaccurate base area, which has not been revised since it was introduced seven years ago. I am sure that the Minister for Rural Affairs will welcome some discussion on the issue.

In England, there is no ceiling on the countryside premium scheme, but in Scotland there is a low ceiling. The organic incentive scheme is still delayed in Scotland. The stewardship schemes exist in England but not in Scotland. Beyond the legislative programme, much can be done by the Executive and I look forward to the Rural Affairs Minister dealing with a number of the issues.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4672278+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C704769", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Job Losses (Dumfries and Galloway)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26620, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 521.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 521.0, "ID": 26620, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 527.0, "ContributionID": 704769, "EditedText": "Order. Will members engaging in private conversations please do so outside the chamber and not in the course of the member's remarks.", "EditedTextHTML": "Order. Will members engaging in private conversations please do so outside the chamber and not in the course of the member's remarks.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4672278+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C704765", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 519.0, "ContributionID": 704765, "EditedText": "That concludes the debate on the Executive's legislative proposals. As we have no questions to put as a result of that debate, we now move directly to the members' business debate on motion S1M-42 in the name of Mr David Mundell. The debate will conclude after 30 minutes without any question being put.", "EditedTextHTML": "That concludes the debate on the Executive's legislative proposals. As we have no questions to put as a result of that debate, we now move directly to the members' business debate on motion S1M-42 in the name of Mr David Mundell. The debate will conclude after 30 minutes without any question being put.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4672278+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704767", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Job Losses (Dumfries and Galloway)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26620, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 521.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 521.0, "ID": 26620, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 523.0, "ContributionID": 704767, "EditedText": "That the Parliament notes with regret the loss of 99 jobs in Dumfries with the closure of the Nestlé factory, in addition to over 2000 jobs in Dumfries and Galloway in the past two years and the potential loss of 1700 jobs in the agricultural sector in the next two years.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament notes with regret the loss of 99 jobs in Dumfries with the closure of the Nestlé factory, in addition to over 2000 jobs in Dumfries and Galloway in the past two years and the potential loss of 1700 jobs in the agricultural sector in the next two years.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4672278+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1962E35P56C704770", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Job Losses (Dumfries and Galloway)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26620, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 521.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 521.0, "ID": 26620, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mundell, David", "ID": 1962, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Mundell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David Mundell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 529.0, "ContributionID": 704770, "EditedText": "Thank you, Mr Reid. I will ask the minister to acknowledge that we in Dumfries and Galloway face many of the same problems of remote and rural areas as do the Highlands. Although we do not have our own minister, we merit the same level of attention and funding. There is also a growing feeling of marginalisation in the south-west, so I want this Government, which talks so much about social inclusion, to demonstrate some geographic inclusion so that the people of Dumfries and Galloway can be confident that they are on the agenda of the Executive and this Parliament. In addition to peripherality—which I am assured is a word—and dispersed communities, the two major problems that the region faces are spiralling job losses in the manufacturing sector and the restructuring and adjustment of the agricultural sector. Dumfries and Galloway has, at 12.8 per cent, the highest mainland level of employment in agriculture. That compares to the Scottish average of 2 per cent. Agricultural output constitutes 23 per cent of the area's gross domestic product. That is why farming's worst crisis since the war has had a particularly devastating effect not only on the farmers, but on their suppliers and the local shops and businesses in the area. I commend the Scottish Agricultural College report on agriculture and its future in rural Dumfries and Galloway to both Mr McLeish and Mr Finnie. It is an excellent document but it makes troubling reading as it predicts up to 1,700 job losses in that industry unless positive action is taken to restructure. On the manufacturing side, the closure of the Nestlé plant in Dumfries with the loss of 99 jobs is the latest in a seemingly endless line of bad-news stories that have made the local papers. We have become used to headlines like \"New Year Jobs Blow\", which greeted the closure of the UCB polypropylene film plant, and \"Double Jobs Blow Hits 180\" on the shock closure of a showpiece plant. I will not go on, although I must say that I was intrigued by the headline \"Crisis Alert—Dewar to Visit Region\". The job losses that we have experienced tend not to make the national news because the numbers are not headline matters. However, the drip, drip loss of 100 jobs in Dumfries, the loss of 20 this week at Cochran Boilers in Annan and 160 jobs lost at Stelrad in Dalbeattie are equivalent to the loss of many hundreds or even thousands of jobs from our large cities. The psychological effect is the same. An air of gloom has descended on many communities with the inevitable consequence that people move away. The statistics show that depopulation has begun and it is predicted that it will continue. Who is going? Young people and skilled people are going, leaving behind an aging and economically inactive population. Dumfries and Galloway cannot survive on only the income of retired people. Work is needed to sustain and develop vibrant rural communities. There are bright spots, though. I commend the Langholm initiative to Mr McLeish and I suggest that he visit there. It is a shining example of how a community and local organisations can work together to stimulate economic development and enhance their environment. I welcome the closer working relationship between Dumfries and Galloway Council and the local enterprise company. Their joint economic strategy document is a starting point, but I believe its development and implementation will only be fulfilled, in this time of unprecedented crisis, with the clout and expertise of the Scottish Executive as a full partner also at the table. I call on the Executive to make that level of commitment a reality, whether or not we give it the title of task force. I want to conclude my remarks with a further plea to the Scottish Executive that it will give a commitment today to support the Dumfries and Galloway European partnership case for rural strand objective 2 support for the years 2000 to 2006. As its lobby document sets out, such funding is needed if the region is to succeed in building on the foundations that were established under the objective 5 programme with the aim of developing a modern, diverse rural economy with an emphasis on employment creation and on knowledge-based and high-value-added activities. It is always hard to draw attention to a difficult situation without appearing overly negative. Members should be in no doubt that the south-west has a wonderful natural environment, some of the best health and educational facilities in Scotland and, of course, its premier resource, its people. Let us by our actions make this Scottish Parliament the catalyst that will allow the south-west to reach its full economic potential.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you, Mr Reid. I will ask the minister to acknowledge that we in Dumfries and Galloway face many of the same problems of remote and rural areas as do the Highlands. Although we do not have our own minister, we merit the same level of attention and funding. There is also a growing feeling of marginalisation in the south-west, so I want this Government, which talks so much about social inclusion, to demonstrate some geographic inclusion so that the people of Dumfries and Galloway can be confident that they are on the agenda of the Executive and this Parliament.

In addition to peripherality—which I am assured is a word—and dispersed communities, the two major problems that the region faces are spiralling job losses in the manufacturing sector and the restructuring and adjustment of the agricultural sector. Dumfries and Galloway has, at 12.8 per cent, the highest mainland level of employment in agriculture. That compares to the Scottish average of 2 per cent. Agricultural output constitutes 23 per cent of the area's gross domestic product. That is why farming's worst crisis since the war has had a particularly devastating effect not only on the farmers, but on their suppliers and the local shops and businesses in the area.

I commend the Scottish Agricultural College report on agriculture and its future in rural Dumfries and Galloway to both Mr McLeish and Mr Finnie. It is an excellent document but it makes troubling reading as it predicts up to 1,700 job losses in that industry unless positive action is taken to restructure.

On the manufacturing side, the closure of the Nestlé plant in Dumfries with the loss of 99 jobs is the latest in a seemingly endless line of bad-news stories that have made the local papers. We have become used to headlines like \"New Year Jobs Blow\", which greeted the closure of the UCB polypropylene film plant, and \"Double Jobs Blow Hits 180\" on the shock closure of a showpiece plant. I will not go on, although I must say that I was intrigued by the headline \"Crisis Alert—Dewar to Visit Region\".

The job losses that we have experienced tend not to make the national news because the numbers are not headline matters. However, the drip, drip loss of 100 jobs in Dumfries, the loss of 20 this week at Cochran Boilers in Annan and 160 jobs lost at Stelrad in Dalbeattie are equivalent to the loss of many hundreds or even thousands of jobs from our large cities.

The psychological effect is the same. An air of gloom has descended on many communities with the inevitable consequence that people move away. The statistics show that depopulation has begun and it is predicted that it will continue. Who is going? Young people and skilled people are going, leaving behind an aging and economically inactive population. Dumfries and Galloway cannot survive on only the income of retired people. Work is needed to sustain and develop vibrant rural communities.

There are bright spots, though. I commend the Langholm initiative to Mr McLeish and I suggest that he visit there. It is a shining example of how a community and local organisations can work together to stimulate economic development and enhance their environment. I welcome the closer working relationship between Dumfries and Galloway Council and the local enterprise company. Their joint economic strategy document is a starting point, but I believe its development and implementation will only be fulfilled, in this time of unprecedented crisis, with the clout and expertise of the Scottish Executive as a full partner

also at the table. I call on the Executive to make that level of commitment a reality, whether or not we give it the title of task force.

I want to conclude my remarks with a further plea to the Scottish Executive that it will give a commitment today to support the Dumfries and Galloway European partnership case for rural strand objective 2 support for the years 2000 to 2006. As its lobby document sets out, such funding is needed if the region is to succeed in building on the foundations that were established under the objective 5 programme with the aim of developing a modern, diverse rural economy with an emphasis on employment creation and on knowledge-based and high-value-added activities.

It is always hard to draw attention to a difficult situation without appearing overly negative. Members should be in no doubt that the south-west has a wonderful natural environment, some of the best health and educational facilities in Scotland and, of course, its premier resource, its people. Let us by our actions make this Scottish Parliament the catalyst that will allow the south-west to reach its full economic potential.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4672278+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C704771", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Job Losses (Dumfries and Galloway)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26620, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 521.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 521.0, "ID": 26620, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 531.0, "ContributionID": 704771, "EditedText": "Five members have indicated that they want to speak. We will get them all in if they keep their remarks to two and a half minutes.", "EditedTextHTML": "Five members have indicated that they want to speak. We will get them all in if they keep their remarks to two and a half minutes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4672278+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1768E72P274C704775", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Job Losses (Dumfries and Galloway)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26620, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 521.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 521.0, "ID": 26620, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Murray, Elaine", "ID": 1768, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumfries" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Murray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Elaine Murray (Dumfries) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 541.0, "ContributionID": 704775, "EditedText": "Unemployment is, of course, a personal tragedy for individuals and their families. Although political point scoring may create jobs for politicians, it does little to improve the employment prospects of their constituents. In that spirit, I am happy to concur with many of the remarks made by Mr Mundell and Mr Russell. I thank the minister for his commitment, in response to my earlier correspondence, to visit Dumfries and to examine not only its problems but, I hope, its great potential. The whole population of Dumfries must havebeen shocked to learn that the Nestlé—formerly Carnation—factory, which has long been associated with the town, intends to cease operating in October next year. My discussions with Nestlé's representatives immediately after the announcement brought to light two particular problems that they felt had led to the decision. The first was the difficulties that continue to exist as a result of the BSE crisis, particularly the loss of exports to the near east and Saudi Arabia, which has seriously reduced Nestlé's market for dried milk products. The second, which has also featured in my discussions with other local manufacturers—Dupont and Cochran's, for example, both of which have recently announced intentions to downsize as it is known—was the effect of the recession in Russia and the far east. As a consequence of the collapse of the markets there, companies trading in those areas have moved in to compete in a significantly smaller marketplace. I am not quite sure what the Scottish Parliament can do to rectify either of those problems. The joint economic strategy launched by Dumfries and Galloway Enterprise and Dumfries and Galloway Council expressed the view that \"the Parliament should offer opportunities for all agencies to work more closely together and with central government.\" That sounds good, but somehow we must make it a reality. Having said all that, I do not think that it helps to talk Dumfries and Galloway down. It is not some bleak unemployment black spot. Although jobs have been lost during the past couple of years, they have also been created. Indeed, the unemployment figures have fallen by approximately a quarter since 1996. New employers will be attracted to the area because of its advantages and potential. That must be emphasised, but it is not to deny that there are problems that need to be tackled. Even if employment is growing in other sectors, the loss of manufacturing industry is worrying as it offers better paid jobs that help to sustain local economies. Dumfries and Galloway has a reputation—an unfortunate one in my opinion—for having a low- wage economy. Wages are some 10 per cent less than in other areas. I do not believe that my constituents should be paid lower wages because they happen to live in Dumfries and Galloway and we can ill afford to lose employers who pay better wages. There are a number of transport issues to consider, such as the poor quality of some of our trunk roads, such as the A76, parts of the A75 and the A7. Public transport, too, is often inadequate. For example, Dumfries is only 79 miles from Edinburgh and Lockerbie is only 68 miles away. I am off there at 5.30—I think Mr Mundell is too— but I cannot travel by train from my constituency and get to Edinburgh before 10.30 in the morning. That is not just an inconvenience to me; it is a disincentive to business and commuters. I do not want to concentrate exclusively on negative issues. I am extremely proud to represent such a beautiful area where so many positive developments are taking place and I want to advertise the area so that everyone in and outside Scotland knows how much Dumfries and Galloway has to offer. Tourism is a major industry in the area. The industry is worth something like £75 million and employs about 9 per cent of the local work force.", "EditedTextHTML": "Unemployment is, of course, a personal tragedy for individuals and their families. Although political point scoring may create jobs for politicians, it does little to improve the employment prospects of their constituents. In that spirit, I am happy to concur with many of the remarks made by Mr Mundell and Mr Russell.

I thank the minister for his commitment, in response to my earlier correspondence, to visit Dumfries and to examine not only its problems but, I hope, its great potential.

The whole population of Dumfries must have

been shocked to learn that the Nestlé—formerly Carnation—factory, which has long been associated with the town, intends to cease operating in October next year. My discussions with Nestlé's representatives immediately after the announcement brought to light two particular problems that they felt had led to the decision.

The first was the difficulties that continue to exist as a result of the BSE crisis, particularly the loss of exports to the near east and Saudi Arabia, which has seriously reduced Nestlé's market for dried milk products. The second, which has also featured in my discussions with other local manufacturers—Dupont and Cochran's, for example, both of which have recently announced intentions to downsize as it is known—was the effect of the recession in Russia and the far east. As a consequence of the collapse of the markets there, companies trading in those areas have moved in to compete in a significantly smaller marketplace.

I am not quite sure what the Scottish Parliament can do to rectify either of those problems. The joint economic strategy launched by Dumfries and Galloway Enterprise and Dumfries and Galloway Council expressed the view that

\"the Parliament should offer opportunities for all agencies to work more closely together and with central government.\"

That sounds good, but somehow we must make it a reality.

Having said all that, I do not think that it helps to talk Dumfries and Galloway down. It is not some bleak unemployment black spot. Although jobs have been lost during the past couple of years, they have also been created. Indeed, the unemployment figures have fallen by approximately a quarter since 1996.

New employers will be attracted to the area because of its advantages and potential. That must be emphasised, but it is not to deny that there are problems that need to be tackled. Even if employment is growing in other sectors, the loss of manufacturing industry is worrying as it offers better paid jobs that help to sustain local economies.

Dumfries and Galloway has a reputation—an unfortunate one in my opinion—for having a low- wage economy. Wages are some 10 per cent less than in other areas. I do not believe that my constituents should be paid lower wages because they happen to live in Dumfries and Galloway and we can ill afford to lose employers who pay better wages.

There are a number of transport issues to consider, such as the poor quality of some of our trunk roads, such as the A76, parts of the A75 and the A7. Public transport, too, is often inadequate.

For example, Dumfries is only 79 miles from Edinburgh and Lockerbie is only 68 miles away. I am off there at 5.30—I think Mr Mundell is too— but I cannot travel by train from my constituency and get to Edinburgh before 10.30 in the morning. That is not just an inconvenience to me; it is a disincentive to business and commuters.

I do not want to concentrate exclusively on negative issues. I am extremely proud to represent such a beautiful area where so many positive developments are taking place and I want to advertise the area so that everyone in and outside Scotland knows how much Dumfries and Galloway has to offer.

Tourism is a major industry in the area. The industry is worth something like £75 million and employs about 9 per cent of the local work force.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4672278+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C704776", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Job Losses (Dumfries and Galloway)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26620, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 521.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 521.0, "ID": 26620, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 543.0, "ContributionID": 704776, "EditedText": "Briefly, please.", "EditedTextHTML": "Briefly, please.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4672278+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1768E72P274C704777", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Job Losses (Dumfries and Galloway)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26620, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 521.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 521.0, "ID": 26620, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Murray, Elaine", "ID": 1768, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumfries" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Murray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Murray: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 545.0, "ContributionID": 704777, "EditedText": "There are plans to expand the tourism industry. We also have the food industry, the forestry industry and, despite the current problems, the agriculture industry. Dumfries is renowned for the quality of its products and will continue to have a future at the quality end of the market. Positive efforts are being made to try to turn round some of the recent bad news. For example, Nestlé is working closely with the council and the enterprise company to do what it can to find another employer to take over the site. There have been a number of other issues, but I do not have time to go through them all at present. I wish to draw members' attention to the world- class optical cable communications system that is being installed at the Crichton campus at Dumfries. It will offer business and education a good system and it is something I would like to show the Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning because it is especially relevant and has many advantages. I believe we must use our strengths to overcome our weaknesses. Neither Dumfriesshire nor Scotland should sell itself short. We should be shouting about what we do well, putting ourselves on the map and marketing ourselves.", "EditedTextHTML": "There are plans to expand the tourism industry. We also have the food industry, the forestry industry and, despite the current problems, the agriculture industry. Dumfries is renowned for the quality of its products and will continue to have a future at the quality end of the market.

Positive efforts are being made to try to turn round some of the recent bad news. For example, Nestlé is working closely with the council and the enterprise company to do what it can to find another employer to take over the site. There have been a number of other issues, but I do not have time to go through them all at present.

I wish to draw members' attention to the world- class optical cable communications system that is being installed at the Crichton campus at Dumfries. It will offer business and education a good system and it is something I would like to show the Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning because it is especially relevant and has many advantages.

I believe we must use our strengths to overcome our weaknesses. Neither Dumfriesshire nor Scotland should sell itself short. We should be shouting about what we do well, putting ourselves on the map and marketing ourselves.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4672278+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2044E178P334C704779", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Job Losses (Dumfries and Galloway)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26620, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 521.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 521.0, "ID": 26620, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jenkins, Ian", "ID": 2044, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ian Jenkins", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ian Jenkins (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 550.0, "ContributionID": 704779, "EditedText": "I come from the Scottish Borders and share many of Dr Murray's views. We faced similar problems recently; we are still facing them. I am sure that there will be more bad news before everything comes good. Dr Murray can take heart: with the Governmentsupported Borders working party and the document \"New Ways\" the Borders have turned the corner. That has happened because everyone has worked together. Problems have been focused on. With a wee bit of backing, a wee bit of control, a bit of determination and by not—as Dr Murray said—talking the place down, but being positive, the tide has started to turn. I hold out that hope to Dr Murray. I am worried about the south of Scotland not getting recognition. People think about the Highlands and Islands and the rest. The lowlands is not just the lowlands; it is the lowlands and the south of Scotland and we must ensure that that is not forgotten. Communications, such as roads and high-tech electronics, are deeply important. Education is also important and leads me to the south of Scotland university project, which I wish well and think could make a difference. The Scottish College of Textiles in Galashiels has been incorporated into Heriot-Watt University and now has an office in Hawick. That will make a difference because success breeds success and, therefore, people will stay. Investment is also important. Small things can make a difference. I have had two letters from constituents that will strike a chord with Dr Murray. Something as simple as the authorities' failure to put back a tourist sign on the A74 serving Moffat and Broughton has cut people's throats in Moffat and Tweedsmuir.", "EditedTextHTML": "I come from the Scottish Borders and share many of Dr Murray's views. We faced similar problems recently; we are still facing them. I am sure that there will be more bad news before everything comes good.

Dr Murray can take heart: with the Government

supported Borders working party and the document \"New Ways\" the Borders have turned the corner. That has happened because everyone has worked together. Problems have been focused on. With a wee bit of backing, a wee bit of control, a bit of determination and by not—as Dr Murray said—talking the place down, but being positive, the tide has started to turn. I hold out that hope to Dr Murray.

I am worried about the south of Scotland not getting recognition. People think about the Highlands and Islands and the rest. The lowlands is not just the lowlands; it is the lowlands and the south of Scotland and we must ensure that that is not forgotten.

Communications, such as roads and high-tech electronics, are deeply important. Education is also important and leads me to the south of Scotland university project, which I wish well and think could make a difference. The Scottish College of Textiles in Galashiels has been incorporated into Heriot-Watt University and now has an office in Hawick. That will make a difference because success breeds success and, therefore, people will stay. Investment is also important.

Small things can make a difference. I have had two letters from constituents that will strike a chord with Dr Murray. Something as simple as the authorities' failure to put back a tourist sign on the A74 serving Moffat and Broughton has cut people's throats in Moffat and Tweedsmuir.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4672278+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1888E265P358C704781", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Job Losses (Dumfries and Galloway)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26620, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 521.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 521.0, "ID": 26620, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morgan, Alasdair", "ID": 1888, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Galloway and Upper Nithsdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morgan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alasdair Morgan (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 556.0, "ContributionID": 704781, "EditedText": "I will outline, briefly, some of the things the Government can do to turn the situation round.In agriculture, there are still great delays in lifting the beef export ban. I think that there is a hold-up among the civil servants in Brussels and with the scientific veterinary committee. The Government should put a political bomb up their backside and get them moving. We need to encourage growth in small businesses. The factors that affect small businesses in rural areas are different from those that affect small businesses elsewhere. We need a special unit—something like the Small Business Administration in the United States—to consider this issue, so that we can achieve the same kind of success here as they have had in the US. We need greater certainty of funding for our tourist boards. Tourism is the second biggest industry in Dumfries and Galloway and it is ridiculous that the local tourist board nearly went bust last year. We must not let that happen again. We need to encourage the growth of electronic commerce. The great thing about economic commerce is that although it is growing throughout the world, it is something in which rural areas can compete with the rest of the country on nearly equal terms. We need to assist that process and to consider, for example, whether we can encourage British Telecommunications and other providers to make local calls free, as they are in the United States. As has already been said, we need to encourage the south of Scotland university project. The Government should encourage it in the same way, and with the same amount of money, as it encouraged the University of the Highlands and Islands. A centre of academic excellence in the region will encourage businesses to gravitate to, or stay within, it.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will outline, briefly, some of the things the Government can do to turn the

situation round.

In agriculture, there are still great delays in lifting the beef export ban. I think that there is a hold-up among the civil servants in Brussels and with the scientific veterinary committee. The Government should put a political bomb up their backside and get them moving.

We need to encourage growth in small businesses. The factors that affect small businesses in rural areas are different from those that affect small businesses elsewhere. We need a special unit—something like the Small Business Administration in the United States—to consider this issue, so that we can achieve the same kind of success here as they have had in the US.

We need greater certainty of funding for our tourist boards. Tourism is the second biggest industry in Dumfries and Galloway and it is ridiculous that the local tourist board nearly went bust last year. We must not let that happen again.

We need to encourage the growth of electronic commerce. The great thing about economic commerce is that although it is growing throughout the world, it is something in which rural areas can compete with the rest of the country on nearly equal terms. We need to assist that process and to consider, for example, whether we can encourage British Telecommunications and other providers to make local calls free, as they are in the United States.

As has already been said, we need to encourage the south of Scotland university project. The Government should encourage it in the same way, and with the same amount of money, as it encouraged the University of the Highlands and Islands. A centre of academic excellence in the region will encourage businesses to gravitate to, or stay within, it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4672278+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C704783", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Job Losses (Dumfries and Galloway)", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26620, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 521.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 521.0, "ID": 26620, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning (Henry McLeish): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 561.0, "ContributionID": 704783, "EditedText": "I am very pleased to wind up the debate. There have been some excellent speeches. It has been brief, but I am delighted that so many members have been able to speak. Of necessity, I, too, shall have to be brief. That should not be construed as anything other than sticking to the timetable. congratulate Mr Mundell on securing the debate and thank the other participants, including my colleague Dr Elaine Murray. I also want to confirm that I intend to visit Dumfries and Galloway very soon. If there are problems to be addressed, my style will be to visit and encourage local relationships—we have many in the area, and I hope that we can take advantage of them. Economic development powers do not come to the Parliament until 1 July, but I want to make preparations for my visit now. It is clear that rural economies in Scotland face particular problems. I am aware, because I have heard them say so on many occasions, that people from Dumfries and Galloway and, indeed, the Borders feel disadvantaged by the emphasis that has been placed on the Highlands and Islands. We should not take anything away from the Highlands and Islands, but we can put more emphasis on Dumfries and Galloway and the Borders. That is what a Parliament for the whole of Scotland is all about, and this evening I am committing myself to that aspiration. The involvement of local authorities, the private sector and public sector bodies in local enterprise companies leads me to believe that local ownership of solutions is vital. That does not mean that the Government can walk away from tackling the problems practically. Adjournment debates in Westminster seemed very remote, geographically and psychologically. This is Edinburgh, we are very close, and I want Mr Mundell to take a strong message back to his community: we want to gel all our commitment locally and work for his area. We also want to take a new initiative. Debates about rural affairs and rural economies cover virtually every subject in the Parliament. Governments have traditionally not been good at what we call cross-cutting. I want to work closely with Ross Finnie and others to ensure that transport, tourism, the environment, economic development and land issues are brought together, not only in the Executive, but in this Parliament. I would like to think it a challenge to this Parliament, with its subject and mandatory committees, to examine the possibilities of cross-cutting very early on. The Government has responded over the past two years. It is clear that Dumfries and Galloway has faced difficult times. Last October, Donald Dewar announced an additional £1 million for Dumfries and Galloway Enterprise to start the rebuilding process. Funding has already laid foundations for economic growth: more than 300 people have benefited from training programmes and from early completion of the plastics park in Dumfries, which is a fine example of local skills and strengths being adapted to changing global markets. There has been additional support for small business, which is essential for diversification and the local economy. An additional £1 million of funding has to be followed through with a clear strategy and additional resources. The situation is developing, and there are perceived problems, but I want to concentrate in the short time available to me on the potential for Dumfries and Galloway. All members who spoke stressed the problems, but every area has potential. It is right that this Parliament and all the agencies involved recognise that fact. Agriculture is facing difficult times, but it has a tremendous future and tourism has grown enormously, to the extent that 9 per cent of the employed population is now working in it. It is evident that, with a minute remaining, I will not have time to do justice to the myriad points that have been made in this debate. Suffice to say that I want to look, listen and learn about what is happening in Dumfries and Galloway. A raft of reports is already available, but we are also at the start of a new era in which we can do things differently. I think that, over the next few weeks, we will be able to visit Dumfries and Galloway. We want to discuss the situation there with our farming colleagues and to examine assisted area status, European funds and objective 2, which is a current issue—it is reserved to Westminster, but Scottish ministers are closely involved and we want to do the best we can for every part of Scotland. I would like to think that this debate has illustrated why we fought so long to get it. It has been very constructive and I hope that it will act as a signpost for others. I am delighted that it has taken place. It has been extraordinarily brief, but we will be visiting, building and co-operating not only with MSPs, but with everyone who has the best interests of Dumfries and Galloway and the south of Scotland at heart.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am very pleased to wind up the debate. There have been some excellent speeches. It has been brief, but I am delighted that so many members have been able to speak. Of necessity, I, too, shall have to be brief. That should not be construed as anything other than sticking to the timetable. congratulate Mr Mundell on securing the debate and thank the other participants, including my colleague Dr Elaine Murray. I also want to confirm that I intend to visit Dumfries and

Galloway very soon. If there are problems to be addressed, my style will be to visit and encourage local relationships—we have many in the area, and I hope that we can take advantage of them. Economic development powers do not come to the Parliament until 1 July, but I want to make preparations for my visit now.

It is clear that rural economies in Scotland face particular problems. I am aware, because I have heard them say so on many occasions, that people from Dumfries and Galloway and, indeed, the Borders feel disadvantaged by the emphasis that has been placed on the Highlands and Islands. We should not take anything away from the Highlands and Islands, but we can put more emphasis on Dumfries and Galloway and the Borders. That is what a Parliament for the whole of Scotland is all about, and this evening I am committing myself to that aspiration.

The involvement of local authorities, the private sector and public sector bodies in local enterprise companies leads me to believe that local ownership of solutions is vital. That does not mean that the Government can walk away from tackling the problems practically. Adjournment debates in Westminster seemed very remote, geographically and psychologically. This is Edinburgh, we are very close, and I want Mr Mundell to take a strong message back to his community: we want to gel all our commitment locally and work for his area.

We also want to take a new initiative. Debates about rural affairs and rural economies cover virtually every subject in the Parliament. Governments have traditionally not been good at what we call cross-cutting. I want to work closely with Ross Finnie and others to ensure that transport, tourism, the environment, economic development and land issues are brought together, not only in the Executive, but in this Parliament. I would like to think it a challenge to this Parliament, with its subject and mandatory committees, to examine the possibilities of cross-cutting very early on.

The Government has responded over the past two years. It is clear that Dumfries and Galloway has faced difficult times. Last October, Donald Dewar announced an additional £1 million for Dumfries and Galloway Enterprise to start the rebuilding process. Funding has already laid foundations for economic growth: more than 300 people have benefited from training programmes and from early completion of the plastics park in Dumfries, which is a fine example of local skills and strengths being adapted to changing global markets. There has been additional support for small business, which is essential for diversification and the local economy.

An additional £1 million of funding has to be followed through with a clear strategy and

additional resources. The situation is developing, and there are perceived problems, but I want to concentrate in the short time available to me on the potential for Dumfries and Galloway. All members who spoke stressed the problems, but every area has potential. It is right that this Parliament and all the agencies involved recognise that fact. Agriculture is facing difficult times, but it has a tremendous future and tourism has grown enormously, to the extent that 9 per cent of the employed population is now working in it.

It is evident that, with a minute remaining, I will not have time to do justice to the myriad points that have been made in this debate. Suffice to say that I want to look, listen and learn about what is happening in Dumfries and Galloway. A raft of reports is already available, but we are also at the start of a new era in which we can do things differently. I think that, over the next few weeks, we will be able to visit Dumfries and Galloway. We want to discuss the situation there with our farming colleagues and to examine assisted area status, European funds and objective 2, which is a current issue—it is reserved to Westminster, but Scottish ministers are closely involved and we want to do the best we can for every part of Scotland.

I would like to think that this debate has illustrated why we fought so long to get it. It has been very constructive and I hope that it will act as a signpost for others. I am delighted that it has taken place. It has been extraordinarily brief, but we will be visiting, building and co-operating not only with MSPs, but with everyone who has the best interests of Dumfries and Galloway and the south of Scotland at heart.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4672278+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C704719", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fergus Ewing (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 417.0, "ContributionID": 704719, "EditedText": "Is the member aware that in a letter just last week the Labour Government ruled out the possibility of a variable VAT rate?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is the member aware that in a letter just last week the Labour Government ruled out the possibility of a variable VAT rate?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:00:18.3299743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C704591", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 140.0, "ContributionID": 704591, "EditedText": "In the spirit of new politics, I welcome the inclusion of an education bill in the Government's first legislative programme. Our education system is our investment in the future and it is only right that it should be at the heart of this Parliament's agenda. I also welcome the First Minister's comments on partnership. As Alex Salmond has already indicated, nowhere is a partnership approach more appropriate or imperative than in our education system. The First Minister cannot have failed to observe the growing gulf between those who make education policy and those whose job it is to implement that policy in the classroom. The president of the Association of Directors of Education in Scotland, writing in The Scotsman this morning in defence of the strengths of our education system, observes—quite rightly—that many of the problems of our education system are the fault of the national policymakers, not of the teachers who, on so many occasions these days, have to make do and mend. Less blame and more listening from the Executive ought to be the order of the day. Increasingly, initiatives in education are introduced without consultation and are driven by ideological rather than education concerns. Inevitably, in those circumstances, it is the children in our schools who suffer the consequences. I hope that the Government will take the opportunity to embrace genuine partnership and I look forward to Sam Galbraith's statement on the details of the consultation process. There must be an open and rigorous consultation exercise, involving all the partners in education—local authorities, teachers, employers and, of course, parents, who, more than any other group, understand and care about the interests of our children. Who knows? Perhaps the consultation process will even provide a last chance for the Liberal Democrats to have some of their policies included in the education bill. The crucial point is that the consultation process must not be simply a sham. We must listen to the views that are expressed in that process and ensure that the mistakes of the past are not repeated. The education bill must build on the strengths of Scottish education, of which there are many, and tackle its fundamental weaknesses. Its aim must be to improve the educational experience of every single child in every single school in Scotland. In child care and pre-five education, that means introducing regulations to ensure not just the quantity of places available, but the quality of the care and education that our youngest children receive. In schools, we must bring forward proposals to reduce the administrative burden on teachers and allow them to do what they do best— teach children. We must allow our teachers the professional freedom within the curriculum to ensure that no children emerge from the early years of education without the basic skills that will allow them to go forward and fulfil their potential. The Government's stated aim is to raise standards in schools. I hope and expect that that will be one of the areas of consensus that the First Minister mentioned earlier. However, there must also be recognition that raising standards in schools is about more than the publication of meaningless statistics. It is about real improvements in real schools—improvements that are relevant to pupils and understood by parents. I hope, therefore, that the education bill will propose a radical reform of the discredited target- setting regime. In fact, I would go so far as to say that such a move is essential if local authorities are to be at the heart of the drive to raise standards. It is the obligation of everybody in society to work to raise standards in schools. Local authorities share that obligation, but it is the obligation of Government to create the conditions in which local authorities can raise standards in schools. The debate about raising standards cannot and must not be divorced from the debate about resources in our education system. Scotland has an education system that is based on sound philosophical principles, and its many strengths must be protected. For some 20 or 30 years, however, the education system has been starved of essential resources. I hope that the education bill addresses the issue of resources. Before the election, the SNP outlined a variety of proposals to inject much-needed resources into our education system, and I hope that some of those ideas will be included in the education bill. I hope that there will be proposals to reduce class sizes, not just in the early years of education, but from primary 1 to the second year of secondary school. I hope that there will be a Government commitment to work with teachers in the Scottish Joint Negotiating Committee to bring about that reduction in class sizes. Investment in books and learning materials is absolutely essential, as is investment in language teachers and special needs teachers in primary schools. I hope that during this debate we will hear some indication of how many extra modern language teachers and special needs teachers will be employed in the course of this Parliament. This Executive—this Parliament—has the opportunity over the next four years to do what Westminster, under Labour and Tory Governments, has failed to do, that is, to get it right for Scottish education, to get it right with teachers, with parents and with local authorities, and to get it right for Scotland's children. I hope that the Executive seizes that opportunity, and that as a result there are radical and necessary reforms in Scottish education.", "EditedTextHTML": "In the spirit of new politics, I welcome the inclusion of an education bill in the Government's first legislative programme. Our education system is our investment in the future and it is only right that it should be at the heart of this Parliament's agenda.

I also welcome the First Minister's comments on partnership. As Alex Salmond has already indicated, nowhere is a partnership approach more appropriate or imperative than in our education system. The First Minister cannot have failed to observe the growing gulf between those who make education policy and those whose job it is to implement that policy in the classroom. The president of the Association of Directors of Education in Scotland, writing in The Scotsman this morning in defence of the strengths of our education system, observes—quite rightly—that many of the problems of our education system are the fault of the national policymakers, not of the teachers who, on so many occasions these days, have to make do and mend. Less blame and more listening from the Executive ought to be the order of the day.

Increasingly, initiatives in education are introduced without consultation and are driven by ideological rather than education concerns. Inevitably, in those circumstances, it is the children in our schools who suffer the consequences.

I hope that the Government will take the opportunity to embrace genuine partnership and I look forward to Sam Galbraith's statement on the details of the consultation process. There must be an open and rigorous consultation exercise, involving all the partners in education—local authorities, teachers, employers and, of course, parents, who, more than any other group, understand and care about the interests of our children. Who knows? Perhaps the consultation process will even provide a last chance for the Liberal Democrats to have some of their policies included in the education bill.

The crucial point is that the consultation process must not be simply a sham. We must listen to the views that are expressed in that process and ensure that the mistakes of the past are not repeated.

The education bill must build on the strengths of Scottish education, of which there are many, and tackle its fundamental weaknesses. Its aim must be to improve the educational experience of every single child in every single school in Scotland. In child care and pre-five education, that means introducing regulations to ensure not just the quantity of places available, but the quality of the care and education that our youngest children receive. In schools, we must bring forward proposals to reduce the administrative burden on teachers and allow them to do what they do best— teach children. We must allow our teachers the professional freedom within the curriculum to ensure that no children emerge from the early years of education without the basic skills that will allow them to go forward and fulfil their potential.

The Government's stated aim is to raise standards in schools. I hope and expect that that will be one of the areas of consensus that the First Minister mentioned earlier. However, there must also be recognition that raising standards in schools is about more than the publication of

meaningless statistics. It is about real improvements in real schools—improvements that are relevant to pupils and understood by parents.

I hope, therefore, that the education bill will propose a radical reform of the discredited target- setting regime. In fact, I would go so far as to say that such a move is essential if local authorities are to be at the heart of the drive to raise standards. It is the obligation of everybody in society to work to raise standards in schools. Local authorities share that obligation, but it is the obligation of Government to create the conditions in which local authorities can raise standards in schools.

The debate about raising standards cannot and must not be divorced from the debate about resources in our education system. Scotland has an education system that is based on sound philosophical principles, and its many strengths must be protected. For some 20 or 30 years, however, the education system has been starved of essential resources. I hope that the education bill addresses the issue of resources. Before the election, the SNP outlined a variety of proposals to inject much-needed resources into our education system, and I hope that some of those ideas will be included in the education bill.

I hope that there will be proposals to reduce class sizes, not just in the early years of education, but from primary 1 to the second year of secondary school. I hope that there will be a Government commitment to work with teachers in the Scottish Joint Negotiating Committee to bring about that reduction in class sizes.

Investment in books and learning materials is absolutely essential, as is investment in language teachers and special needs teachers in primary schools. I hope that during this debate we will hear some indication of how many extra modern language teachers and special needs teachers will be employed in the course of this Parliament.

This Executive—this Parliament—has the opportunity over the next four years to do what Westminster, under Labour and Tory Governments, has failed to do, that is, to get it right for Scottish education, to get it right with teachers, with parents and with local authorities, and to get it right for Scotland's children. I hope that the Executive seizes that opportunity, and that as a result there are radical and necessary reforms in Scottish education.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:00:06.0659627+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1773E197P503C704609", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hyslop, Fiona", "ID": 1773, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona Hyslop", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona Hyslop (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 180.0, "ContributionID": 704609, "EditedText": "Will Mr McMahon identify the specific measures in the legislative programme that address poverty, homelessness and social justice?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr McMahon identify the specific measures in the legislative programme that address poverty, homelessness and social justice?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:00:13.0585835+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2110E214P424C704600", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gibson, Kenneth", "ID": 2110, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenneth Gibson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Kenneth Gibson (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 161.0, "ContributionID": 704600, "EditedText": "SNP members welcome a local government ethical standards bill to restore public confidence in local government. The bill is necessitated by alleged sleaze and mismanagement in a number of Labour councils in recent years.", "EditedTextHTML": "SNP members welcome a local government ethical standards bill to restore public confidence in local government. The bill is necessitated by alleged sleaze and mismanagement in a number of Labour councils in recent years.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:01:27.8453423+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C704714", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 406.0, "ContributionID": 704714, "EditedText": "I will turn that way.Can Mr Wilson tell me if there is a majority in this chamber to abolish tuition fees?", "EditedTextHTML": "I will turn that way.

Can Mr Wilson tell me if there is a majority in this chamber to abolish tuition fees?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:05:19.2124205+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C704758", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 504.0, "ContributionID": 704758, "EditedText": "The First Minister referred to an important question at the outset of the debate: \"People ask when the Parliament will begin to make a difference. Today, we begin to answer that question.\" Today has undoubtedly begun to provide the answer to that question; we have found a lamentable answer in the Government's programme. The debate has also been characterised by a degree of cross-party agreement. I want to record that cross-party agreement, because it is important that we give shape and form to the way in which the politics of the Parliament can come together. Important speeches were made on the incapable adults bill; the support for that bill across the chamber is to be welcomed. The support for the feudal tenure bill across the chamber must be recorded. The support for the financial procedures and auditing bill is also important, and I hope that in his comments the Deputy First Minister can reassure me that the bones of the Government's legislative proposals will be the important work carried out by financial issues advisory group. I hope that some of the matters raised by my colleague, Andrew Wilson, about openness in the scrutiny of financial issues, will be taken on board by the Government. There is wide support—I would not go so far as to say consensus—on land reform. With the probable exception of the Conservatives, there is a general willingness to embark on the land reform agenda, but also a hunger to ensure that the real problems of land use and consultation about access and utilisation of land are addressed by the legislation. I do not think that that is the case for— or the judgment that could be applied to—the conclusions of the land policy reform group, which were published before the election. We are making progress in the area of mainstream education, by having a meaningful debate about the contents of the education bill. Mr Jenkins's speech was of particular substance in addressing the fact that it is teachers and parents who contribute to the raising of standards, not necessarily legislation. I hope that the minister recorded Mr Jenkins's points. The Government's programme is missing many elements that command wide support. Mr McAllion, Fiona Hyslop and Tommy Sheridan all called for a housing bill and for legislation to tackle the issue of homelessness. Trish Godman, Annabel Goldie, Mary Scanlon and Phil Gallie talked about the requirement for legislation on drugs. Annabel Goldie and my colleague Alex Neil talked about the absence of enterprise legislation and of support for the employment process. There were regretful references to the absence of health legislation. Most important—this is at the core of today's debate—comments were made by Margaret Curran, Michael McMahon, Tommy Sheridan and Fiona Hyslop about the social agenda of the Parliament and its aspirations. However, there is nothing in the legislative programme to give that shape and form. It is important that the Deputy First Minister should respond to a couple of specific points that were raised during the debate. The Government must give us a commitment today to legislate on the basis of the proposals of the McIntosh commission, and an undertaking to address some of the important issues that McIntosh raised, which are absent from and not touched by the legislative programme. We need reassurance that the bill on ethical standards in local government to be introduced by the Government will begin to set standards for many of the quangos and executive agencies in Scotland. Many of us are deeply concerned about the lack of accountability and control that are exercised over those organisations. When Governments come into office, they are characterised in various ways. When the Labour Government was elected in 1997, it was characterised by an action-oriented approach to government. We were told about the 100-days programme and all that it would deliver. We were told—it was a common assumption in 1997—that the Labour Government had come into office and had hit the ground running. This morning, I noticed in a newspaper column that the First Minister had been described as having come into office and hit the ground strolling—possibly an exaggeration of the pace at which he moves. This legislative programme shows that he hit the ground and stopped. It reminds me of a Polo mint—while there is something around the edges, something is missing in the middle. The bit that is missing is action to meet the aspirations that have been expressed by speaker after speaker in the chamber—not just my colleagues, but members on the Conservative, Labour and independent benches. They demanded urgent progress to tackle some of the real issues: social justice, poverty and the housing crisis that afflicts our country today. Those aspirations are shared by many thousands of people throughout Scotland who elected us to deliver real progress. In the first part of the First Minister's statement, he made an elaborate set of commitments to the aspirations that he seeks to deliver on in Scotland. Those aspirations are legitimate and supportable social and economic ambitions for Scotland. However, the legislative programme then falls off the edge and is silent on many of those subjects. We must be aware of what is expected of us in this Parliament. We are expected to deliver on employment and social justice, and to tackle the war on poverty in our country. The Government has put before us a worthy, but definitely unambitious, legislative programme. It must realise that it is tampering with the high hopes of people in Scotland, and we in the Opposition will hold the Government to account on those hopes in the coming months.", "EditedTextHTML": "The First Minister referred to an important question at the outset of the debate:

\"People ask when the Parliament will begin to make a difference. Today, we begin to answer that question.\"

Today has undoubtedly begun to provide the answer to that question; we have found a lamentable answer in the Government's programme. The debate has also been characterised by a degree of cross-party agreement. I want to record that cross-party agreement, because it is important that we give shape and form to the way in which the politics of the Parliament can come together.

Important speeches were made on the incapable adults bill; the support for that bill across the chamber is to be welcomed. The support for the feudal tenure bill across the chamber must be recorded. The support for the financial procedures and auditing bill is also important, and I hope that in his comments the Deputy First Minister can reassure me that the bones of the Government's legislative proposals will be the important work carried out by financial issues advisory group. I hope that some of the matters raised by my colleague, Andrew Wilson, about openness in the scrutiny of financial issues, will be taken on board by the Government.

There is wide support—I would not go so far as to say consensus—on land reform. With the probable exception of the Conservatives, there is a general willingness to embark on the land reform agenda, but also a hunger to ensure that the real problems of land use and consultation about access and utilisation of land are addressed by the legislation. I do not think that that is the case for— or the judgment that could be applied to—the conclusions of the land policy reform group, which were published before the election.

We are making progress in the area of mainstream education, by having a meaningful debate about the contents of the education bill. Mr Jenkins's speech was of particular substance in addressing the fact that it is teachers and parents who contribute to the raising of standards, not necessarily legislation. I hope that the minister recorded Mr Jenkins's points.

The Government's programme is missing many elements that command wide support. Mr McAllion, Fiona Hyslop and Tommy Sheridan all called for a housing bill and for legislation to tackle the issue of homelessness. Trish Godman, Annabel Goldie, Mary Scanlon and Phil Gallie talked about the requirement for legislation on drugs. Annabel Goldie and my colleague Alex Neil talked about the absence of enterprise legislation and of support for the employment process. There were regretful references to the absence of health legislation. Most important—this is at the core of today's debate—comments were made by Margaret Curran, Michael McMahon, Tommy Sheridan and Fiona Hyslop about the social agenda of the Parliament and its aspirations. However, there is nothing in the legislative programme to give that shape and form.

It is important that the Deputy First Minister should respond to a couple of specific points that were raised during the debate. The Government must give us a commitment today to legislate on the basis of the proposals of the McIntosh commission, and an undertaking to address some of the important issues that McIntosh raised, which are absent from and not touched by the legislative programme. We need reassurance that the bill on ethical standards in local government to be introduced by the Government will begin to set standards for many of the quangos and executive agencies in Scotland. Many of us are deeply concerned about the lack of accountability and control that are exercised over those organisations.

When Governments come into office, they are characterised in various ways. When the Labour Government was elected in 1997, it was characterised by an action-oriented approach to government. We were told about the 100-days programme and all that it would deliver. We were told—it was a common assumption in 1997—that the Labour Government had come into office and had hit the ground running. This morning, I noticed in a newspaper column that the First Minister had been described as having come into office and hit the ground strolling—possibly an exaggeration of the pace at which he moves. This legislative programme shows that he hit the ground and

stopped. It reminds me of a Polo mint—while there is something around the edges, something is missing in the middle.

The bit that is missing is action to meet the aspirations that have been expressed by speaker after speaker in the chamber—not just my colleagues, but members on the Conservative, Labour and independent benches. They demanded urgent progress to tackle some of the real issues: social justice, poverty and the housing crisis that afflicts our country today. Those aspirations are shared by many thousands of people throughout Scotland who elected us to deliver real progress.

In the first part of the First Minister's statement, he made an elaborate set of commitments to the aspirations that he seeks to deliver on in Scotland. Those aspirations are legitimate and supportable social and economic ambitions for Scotland. However, the legislative programme then falls off the edge and is silent on many of those subjects. We must be aware of what is expected of us in this Parliament. We are expected to deliver on employment and social justice, and to tackle the war on poverty in our country. The Government has put before us a worthy, but definitely unambitious, legislative programme. It must realise that it is tampering with the high hopes of people in Scotland, and we in the Opposition will hold the Government to account on those hopes in the coming months.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:06:33.7651873+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C704624", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 16 Jun 1999", "ID": 4168 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-16T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Legislative Programme", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26619, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 18.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 18.0, "ID": 26619, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 212.0, "ContributionID": 704624, "EditedText": "I am grateful to Mr Raffan for allowing my intervention. If he had shown me the courtesy of letting me intervene when I wanted to a moment ago, I would have asked him how long the Liberal Democrats took to do a volte-face on tuition fees when drawing up the coalition agreement. Furthermore, what are the similarities between the positions of the coalition parties on the single currency? The arguments advanced by Mr Raffan and particularly by Mr Malcolm Bruce, his colleague in the north-east of Scotland, are slightly—if not diametrically—at odds with the Labour party's stance on the issue.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful to Mr Raffan for allowing my intervention. If he had shown me the courtesy of letting me intervene when I wanted to a moment ago, I would have asked him how long the Liberal Democrats took to do a volte-face on tuition fees when drawing up the coalition agreement. Furthermore, what are the similarities between the positions of the coalition parties on the single currency? The arguments advanced by Mr Raffan and particularly by Mr Malcolm Bruce, his colleague in the north-east of Scotland, are slightly—if not diametrically—at odds with the Labour party's stance on the issue.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:02:32.7857179+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1773E197P503C704443", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "UK Parliament Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26613, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26613, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hyslop, Fiona", "ID": 1773, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona Hyslop", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona Hyslop (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 21.0, "ContributionID": 704443, "EditedText": "I am deeply concerned about the Immigration and Asylum Bill, which is currently going through the House of Commons. The First Minister mentioned that most of the bill covers reserved matters. However, clause 105 amends the Housing (Scotland) Act 1987 to prohibit asylum seekers from gaining housing under the act's homelessness provisions. The amendment of the Social Work (Scotland) Act 1968 has been mentioned; the bill also amends the Mental Health (Scotland) Act 1984, to prevent local authorities from making arrangements for the mental health care of asylum seekers. The Children (Scotland) Act 1995 is being amended to prevent local authorities from providing support to children of asylum seekers. The First Minister talks about the ability to repeal legislation, and expresses concern about the possible inertia of this Parliament. However, a series of acts is involved—does the First Minister agree that it would be easier to persuade Jack Straw to remove those clauses at this stage than for us to have to go back to amend several acts as a result of legislation that is currently going through the House of Commons?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am deeply concerned about the Immigration and Asylum Bill, which is currently going through the House of Commons. The First Minister mentioned that most of the bill covers reserved matters. However,

clause 105 amends the Housing (Scotland) Act 1987 to prohibit asylum seekers from gaining housing under the act's homelessness provisions. The amendment of the Social Work (Scotland) Act 1968 has been mentioned; the bill also amends the Mental Health (Scotland) Act 1984, to prevent local authorities from making arrangements for the mental health care of asylum seekers. The Children (Scotland) Act 1995 is being amended to prevent local authorities from providing support to children of asylum seekers.

The First Minister talks about the ability to repeal legislation, and expresses concern about the possible inertia of this Parliament. However, a series of acts is involved—does the First Minister agree that it would be easier to persuade Jack Straw to remove those clauses at this stage than for us to have to go back to amend several acts as a result of legislation that is currently going through the House of Commons?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:01:40.7395022+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C704442", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "UK Parliament Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26613, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26613, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 19.0, "ContributionID": 704442, "EditedText": "That matter has nothing to do with the statement I have made. As Dennis Canavan knows, it is a devolved area of responsibility over which, therefore, this Parliament has powers.", "EditedTextHTML": "That matter has nothing to do with the statement I have made. As Dennis Canavan knows, it is a devolved area of responsibility over which, therefore, this Parliament has powers.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.42035+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C704436", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "UK Parliament Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26613, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26613, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister (Donald Dewar): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 7.0, "ContributionID": 704436, "EditedText": "With my light properly off, I would like to make a statement on future legislation by the Westminster Parliament about matters that are within the legislative competence of this Parliament. Following devolution, the Westminster Parliament will retain its competence to legislate about all matters. That will include matters that are within the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament. In a devolved system, it could not be otherwise. However, the United Kingdom Government has made it clear that it expects a convention to be established whereby Westminster would not usually legislate on devolved matters in Scotland without the consent of the Scottish Parliament. Lord Sewel made that clear on 21 July last year during consideration of the Scotland Bill by the House of Lords. In a memorandum of evidence to the House of Commons Procedure Committee last November, the President of the Council indicated that the Government expected the convention to be adopted for all public bills. In addition, the Scottish Executive expects that the UK Government will oppose any private member's bill that seeks to alter the law on devolved subjects unless it is clear that the proposal has the support of the relevant devolved body. That is also the position of the UK Government. In its report on the procedural consequences of devolution, published on 24 May, the Procedure Committee stated that it supported the principles behind Mrs Beckett's statement and agreed that the House should not legislate without the consent of the devolved legislature concerned. Members may find it helpful if I explain how we envisage that the process of seeking consent will work in practice. Where the Scottish Executive and the United Kingdom Government agree that a policy in a devolved area should be given effect by an act of the Westminster Parliament, it would be for the Scottish ministers to put the proposal to the Scottish Parliament, and for the UK Government to manage its business at Westminster in a way that is consistent with the convention. The usual rule will be that legislation about devolved subjects in Scotland will be enacted by the Scottish Parliament. From time to time, however, it may be appropriate for a Westminster act to include provisions about such matters. That might be the case, for example, where the two Administrations agree that there should be one regime of regulation with application on a UK-wide or GB-wide basis. An example of when we expect to introduce such a measure is that of the proposed bill to establish a food standards agency to operate on a UK-wide basis. Earlier this year, the UK Government published a draft bill that made it clear that the Scottish Parliament's consent would be sought for that proposal. I do not want to be taken on to the specifics of that case today, but let me make it clear that the Parliament will have the opportunity to debate fully that and other relevant issues at the appropriate time. Indeed, I expect that the issue will be debated before the summer break. A small number of additional measures may also be introduced at Westminster during this session, dealing essentially with reserved areas but with some impact in devolved areas. The Sexual Offences (Amendment) Bill is a UK measure designed to equalise the age of consent for homosexuals and heterosexuals, and to introduce a new offence of abuse of trust. It was introduced to the Westminster Parliament in December last year and defeated in the House of Lords in April this year. The UK Government is likely to reintroduce the bill, making use of the Parliament Acts to ensure its passage. That means that the bill that is reintroduced would have to be identical to the one that was defeated. Therefore, even if it were thought desirable, it will not be possible to remove Scotland from the bill's scope if the Parliament Acts are invoked. Until the UK Government and Parliament have concluded the existing legislative process, it is logical to regard it as unfinished Westminster business. However, these are devolved matters of some sensitivity. It is essential that this Parliament should have the opportunity to debate the Scottish provisions of the bill. We shall therefore provide for a debate in Executive time. I and my colleagues in the Executive will argue in that debate that the powers under the Parliament Acts should be used if that is thought appropriate by the United Kingdom Government. We have reached that conclusion in the knowledge that this Parliament will have the power, if it so wishes, to amend or repeal any Scottish provision enacted by the passage of the Sexual Offences (Amendment) Bill. As members are aware, there are a number of bills currently before the United Kingdom Parliament which make provision about matters that are to be within the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament. The proceedings of some of these bills will still be in train on 1 July. A paper describing the bills that are expected to be enacted in this way is available to members from the document supply centre. When I finish, that document will also be available at the back of the chamber, as will a copy of my statement. The bills include, for example, the Health Bill, the Water Industry Bill and the Pollution Prevention and Control Bill. The Health Bill will enable the completion of the reforms set out in the white paper \"Designed to Care\". In particular, it provides for the abolition of general practice fundholding, for changes in the financial arrangements for national health service trusts and for the imposition of a duty of quality on the NHS in Scotland. In addition, it includes measures to tackle fraud in the NHS and to require all primary care practitioners to have indemnity cover. The Water Industry Bill will establish the water industry commissioner for Scotland and wind up the present Customers Council. The Pollution Prevention and Control Bill makes provision to ensure that the EC Directive on Integrated Pollution Prevention and Control is implemented on time. There are also several bills with limited, specific provision about matters that will be within the competence of this Parliament. For example, the Welfare Reform and Pensions Bill is largely concerned with reserved matters, but includes provisions in the area of family law to allow the sharing of pensions between divorced couples. It is the view of the Scottish Executive that it is right for the remaining stages of these bills to be completed at Westminster. They are, in the view of the Executive, necessary bills. Not to let them proceed at Westminster would mean halting consideration of them now, only to start again after the Scottish Parliament takes up its full powers on 1 July. In practice, that would mean no progress until the autumn at the earliest. I stress that Scottish ministers are being consulted fully by the UK Government about the progress and handling of this legislation, and it will be for the Scottish ministers to exercise any ministerial powers and duties within devolved competence that are conferred by the bills. In doing so, they will, of course, be accountable to this Parliament. Importantly in this context, I remind members that the Scottish Parliament will be able to amend or repeal legislation made at Westminster in so far as its provisions fall within this Parliament's competence. That is the case for existing legislation, for this session's bills at Westminster that affect Scotland and for future acts of the UK Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "With my light properly off, I would like to make a statement on future legislation by the Westminster Parliament about matters that are within the legislative competence of this Parliament.

Following devolution, the Westminster Parliament will retain its competence to legislate about all matters. That will include matters that are within the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament. In a devolved system, it could not be otherwise.

However, the United Kingdom Government has made it clear that it expects a convention to be established whereby Westminster would not usually legislate on devolved matters in Scotland without the consent of the Scottish Parliament. Lord Sewel made that clear on 21 July last year during consideration of the Scotland Bill by the House of Lords. In a memorandum of evidence to the House of Commons Procedure Committee last November, the President of the Council indicated that the Government expected the convention to be adopted for all public bills.

In addition, the Scottish Executive expects that the UK Government will oppose any private member's bill that seeks to alter the law on devolved subjects unless it is clear that the proposal has the support of the relevant devolved body. That is also the position of the UK Government. In its report on the procedural consequences of devolution, published on 24 May, the Procedure Committee stated that it supported the principles behind Mrs Beckett's statement and agreed that the House should not legislate without the consent of the devolved legislature concerned.

Members may find it helpful if I explain how we envisage that the process of seeking consent will work in practice. Where the Scottish Executive and the United Kingdom Government agree that a policy in a devolved area should be given effect by an act of the Westminster Parliament, it would be for the Scottish ministers to put the proposal to the Scottish Parliament, and for the UK Government to manage its business at Westminster in a way that is consistent with the convention.

The usual rule will be that legislation about devolved subjects in Scotland will be enacted by the Scottish Parliament. From time to time, however, it may be appropriate for a Westminster act to include provisions about such matters. That might be the case, for example, where the two Administrations agree that there should be one regime of regulation with application on a UK-wide or GB-wide basis.

An example of when we expect to introduce such a measure is that of the proposed bill to establish a food standards agency to operate on a UK-wide basis. Earlier this year, the UK Government published a draft bill that made it clear that the Scottish Parliament's consent would be sought for that proposal. I do not want to be taken on to the specifics of that case today, but let me make it clear that the Parliament will have the opportunity to debate fully that and other relevant issues at the appropriate time. Indeed, I expect that the issue will be debated before the summer break.

A small number of additional measures may also be introduced at Westminster during this session, dealing essentially with reserved areas but with some impact in devolved areas. The Sexual Offences (Amendment) Bill is a UK measure designed to equalise the age of consent for homosexuals and heterosexuals, and to introduce a new offence of abuse of trust. It was introduced to the Westminster Parliament in December last year and defeated in the House of Lords in April this year. The UK Government is likely to reintroduce the bill, making use of the Parliament Acts to ensure its passage. That means that the bill that is reintroduced would have to be identical to the one that was defeated. Therefore, even if it were thought desirable, it will not be possible to remove Scotland from the bill's scope if the Parliament Acts are invoked.

Until the UK Government and Parliament have concluded the existing legislative process, it is logical to regard it as unfinished Westminster business. However, these are devolved matters of some sensitivity. It is essential that this Parliament should have the opportunity to debate the Scottish provisions of the bill. We shall therefore provide for a debate in Executive time. I and my colleagues in the Executive will argue in that debate that the powers under the Parliament Acts should be used if that is thought appropriate by the United Kingdom Government.

We have reached that conclusion in the knowledge that this Parliament will have the power, if it so wishes, to amend or repeal any Scottish provision enacted by the passage of the Sexual Offences (Amendment) Bill.

As members are aware, there are a number of bills currently before the United Kingdom Parliament which make provision about matters that are to be within the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament. The proceedings of some of these bills will still be in train on 1 July. A paper describing the bills that are expected to be enacted in this way is available to members from the document supply centre. When I finish, that document will also be available at the back of the chamber, as will a copy of my statement.

The bills include, for example, the Health Bill, the Water Industry Bill and the Pollution Prevention and Control Bill. The Health Bill will enable the completion of the reforms set out in the white paper \"Designed to Care\". In particular, it provides for the abolition of general practice fundholding, for changes in the financial arrangements for national health service trusts and for the imposition of a duty of quality on the NHS in Scotland. In addition, it includes measures to tackle fraud in the NHS and to require all primary care practitioners to have indemnity cover.

The Water Industry Bill will establish the water industry commissioner for Scotland and wind up the present Customers Council. The Pollution Prevention and Control Bill makes provision to ensure that the EC Directive on Integrated Pollution Prevention and Control is implemented on time.

There are also several bills with limited, specific provision about matters that will be within the competence of this Parliament. For example, the Welfare Reform and Pensions Bill is largely concerned with reserved matters, but includes provisions in the area of family law to allow the sharing of pensions between divorced couples.

It is the view of the Scottish Executive that it is right for the remaining stages of these bills to be completed at Westminster. They are, in the view of the Executive, necessary bills. Not to let them proceed at Westminster would mean halting consideration of them now, only to start again after the Scottish Parliament takes up its full powers on 1 July. In practice, that would mean no progress until the autumn at the earliest.

I stress that Scottish ministers are being consulted fully by the UK Government about the progress and handling of this legislation, and it will be for the Scottish ministers to exercise any ministerial powers and duties within devolved competence that are conferred by the bills. In doing so, they will, of course, be accountable to this Parliament.

Importantly in this context, I remind members that the Scottish Parliament will be able to amend or repeal legislation made at Westminster in so far as its provisions fall within this Parliament's competence. That is the case for existing legislation, for this session's bills at Westminster that affect Scotland and for future acts of the UK Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.42035+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1888E265P358C704437", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "UK Parliament Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26613, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26613, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morgan, Alasdair", "ID": 1888, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Galloway and Upper Nithsdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morgan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alasdair Morgan (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 9.0, "ContributionID": 704437, "EditedText": "I thank the First Minister for providing copies of his statement in advance. That was very helpful. I think that we can agree that some of the current bills, particularly those in the House of Lords, are non-controversial and nearing the end of their process. It is sensible to let them proceed, but we must lay down a caveat for the future. Allowing those bills to be completed at Westminster is not and cannot be a precedent. After the transition period is over, that must not happen again. That brings us to future bills. The SNP view is that the United Kingdom Government should not legislate on devolved matters; they are devolved precisely because it is our job to legislate on them. The First Minister referred to the possibility of agreement between the two Parliaments. Does he accept, however, that an agreement in principle is not the same as the process of enacting a bill? We all know, particularly those of us who have been in Westminster, that vast changes—usually as a result of Government amendments—can be made to a bill before it becomes an act. Agreement in principle is not a satisfactory substitute for our scrutinising the detail of the legislation. It is not good enough for the First Minister to say that we can repeal legislation later; he knows as well as we do that there is a great inertia factor in repealing existing statutes. It is fundamental that the Government should say now that it is not going to use its powers under section 28 of the Scotland Act 1998 to interfere with this Parliament's prerogatives. I want to mention some of the other bills that are going through Westminster, particularly those that deal largely with reserved matters but that also touch on devolved matters. The First Minister mentioned the Welfare Reform and Pensions Bill, but I would like to refer to the Immigration and Asylum Bill. It has yet to receive its third reading in the House of Commons and to go through all its stages in the House of Lords, so it will probably not be on the statute book before the House of Commons recess at the end of July. We all agree that immigration is a reserved matter, even if we do not agree with the content of the bill. It amends some Scottish legislation in devolved areas, particularly the Social Work (Scotland) Act 1968, which is the founding act of Scotland's social work system. Section 12 of that act puts a duty on local authorities to assist people in need, either in cash or in kind. The Immigration and Asylum Bill will amend it by inserting a provision that says: \"A person subject to immigration control is not to receive assistance because he is destitute\". I hope that no member of this Parliament came here to deny assistance to any category of person on the ground that that person was destitute. Labour members spent much time yesterday saying that they wanted to discuss what was happening out in the community rather than what was happening in this chamber. Here is something that we can decide for ourselves. I ask the First Minister to tell his colleague Mr Straw that we in Scotland are quite capable of deciding for ourselves our own social work rules. We were not elected here to follow some neo-Conservative agenda to deny assistance to those who are destitute.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank the First Minister for providing copies of his statement in advance. That was very helpful. I think that we can agree that some of the current bills, particularly those in the House of Lords, are non-controversial and nearing the end of their process. It is sensible to let them

proceed, but we must lay down a caveat for the future. Allowing those bills to be completed at Westminster is not and cannot be a precedent. After the transition period is over, that must not happen again.

That brings us to future bills. The SNP view is that the United Kingdom Government should not legislate on devolved matters; they are devolved precisely because it is our job to legislate on them. The First Minister referred to the possibility of agreement between the two Parliaments. Does he accept, however, that an agreement in principle is not the same as the process of enacting a bill? We all know, particularly those of us who have been in Westminster, that vast changes—usually as a result of Government amendments—can be made to a bill before it becomes an act. Agreement in principle is not a satisfactory substitute for our scrutinising the detail of the legislation.

It is not good enough for the First Minister to say that we can repeal legislation later; he knows as well as we do that there is a great inertia factor in repealing existing statutes. It is fundamental that the Government should say now that it is not going to use its powers under section 28 of the Scotland Act 1998 to interfere with this Parliament's prerogatives.

I want to mention some of the other bills that are going through Westminster, particularly those that deal largely with reserved matters but that also touch on devolved matters. The First Minister mentioned the Welfare Reform and Pensions Bill, but I would like to refer to the Immigration and Asylum Bill. It has yet to receive its third reading in the House of Commons and to go through all its stages in the House of Lords, so it will probably not be on the statute book before the House of Commons recess at the end of July.

We all agree that immigration is a reserved matter, even if we do not agree with the content of the bill. It amends some Scottish legislation in devolved areas, particularly the Social Work (Scotland) Act 1968, which is the founding act of Scotland's social work system. Section 12 of that act puts a duty on local authorities to assist people in need, either in cash or in kind. The Immigration and Asylum Bill will amend it by inserting a provision that says:

\"A person subject to immigration control is not to receive assistance because he is destitute\".

I hope that no member of this Parliament came here to deny assistance to any category of person on the ground that that person was destitute. Labour members spent much time yesterday saying that they wanted to discuss what was happening out in the community rather than what was happening in this chamber. Here is something that we can decide for ourselves. I ask the First Minister to tell his colleague Mr Straw that we in Scotland are quite capable of deciding for ourselves our own social work rules. We were not elected here to follow some neo-Conservative agenda to deny assistance to those who are destitute.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.42035+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C704444", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "UK Parliament Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26613, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26613, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 23.0, "ContributionID": 704444, "EditedText": "Fiona Hyslop will remember that asylum and immigration are reserved matters, on which the Westminster Parliament passes legislation. She may not like that fact, but she will have to accept that it is part of the division of responsibility within the United Kingdom. Fiona Hyslop will also remember that there are Scottish members at Westminster who have substantial interests in these matters and who will no doubt consult Scottish local authorities and others and represent their points of view. Her party has a number of MPs at Westminster; she will no doubt urge them to put forward a point of view if she thinks it important for them to do so.", "EditedTextHTML": "Fiona Hyslop will remember that asylum and immigration are reserved matters, on which the Westminster Parliament passes legislation. She may not like that fact, but she will have to accept that it is part of the division of responsibility within the United Kingdom.

Fiona Hyslop will also remember that there are Scottish members at Westminster who have substantial interests in these matters and who will no doubt consult Scottish local authorities and others and represent their points of view. Her party has a number of MPs at Westminster; she will no doubt urge them to put forward a point of view if she thinks it important for them to do so.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.42035+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C704446", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "UK Parliament Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26613, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26613, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 27.0, "ContributionID": 704446, "EditedText": "That is way beyond the matter under discussion. I might find myself in trouble with the Deputy Presiding Officer if I were to initiate a debate about the Scottish Criminal Cases Review Commission, but I hope that I will be allowed to say that, as a Scottish politician and a lay person, I am delighted to have got myself out of the responsibility of making decisions on such matters at one remove. The point of the Scottish Criminal Cases Review Commission is to take over such functions. It must exercise its judgment in light of the law of Scotland and the available evidence. I would not want to comment on any particular case. The Access to Justice Bill is an example of why we want our measures to go through. It corrects an anomaly and, for the first time, makes legal aid available in cases referred to the Court of Appeal by the Scottish Criminal Cases Review Commission. Mr Sheridan should approve of that. It will also enable recipients of the disability working allowance to be exempt from the financial eligibility and contributions tests for advice and assistance from solicitors. The rigid, nationalistic point of view would be that we could not accept the legislation now but should wait for a year, or for however long, until we can find the time to legislate. Common sense, however, tells us to let such worthwhile, non-controversial and widely welcomed matters to go through under the arrangements that I have outlined.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is way beyond the matter under discussion. I might find myself in trouble with the Deputy Presiding Officer if I were to initiate a debate about the Scottish Criminal Cases Review Commission, but I hope that I will be allowed to say that, as a Scottish politician and a lay person, I am delighted to have got myself out of the responsibility of making decisions on such matters at one remove. The point of the Scottish Criminal Cases Review Commission is to take over such functions. It must exercise its judgment in light of the law of Scotland and the available evidence. I would not want to comment on any particular case.

The Access to Justice Bill is an example of why we want our measures to go through. It corrects an anomaly and, for the first time, makes legal aid available in cases referred to the Court of Appeal by the Scottish Criminal Cases Review Commission. Mr Sheridan should approve of that. It will also enable recipients of the disability working allowance to be exempt from the financial eligibility and contributions tests for advice and assistance from solicitors.

The rigid, nationalistic point of view would be that we could not accept the legislation now but should wait for a year, or for however long, until we can find the time to legislate. Common sense, however, tells us to let such worthwhile, non-controversial and widely welcomed matters to go through under the arrangements that I have outlined.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.42035+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C704447", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Consultative Steering Group", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26614, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 29.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 29.0, "ID": 26614, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ms Patricia Ferguson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 30.0, "ContributionID": 704447, "EditedText": "We will now move on to the debate on motion S1M-39, in the name of Henry McLeish, on the consultative steering group report. The debate should conclude at around 12:20 pm and, while I do not intend to impose time limits on members' speeches, I might review the position later on.", "EditedTextHTML": "We will now move on to the debate on motion S1M-39, in the name of Henry McLeish, on the consultative steering group report. The debate should conclude at around 12:20 pm and, while I do not intend to impose time limits on members' speeches, I might review the position later on.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.42035+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C704448", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Consultative Steering Group", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26614, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 29.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 29.0, "ID": 26614, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning (Henry McLeish): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 33.0, "ContributionID": 704448, "EditedText": "As the former chairman of the consultative steering group on the Scottish Parliament, I am pleased to move the motion this morning but I am no more equipped to talk on the CSG recommendations than others who are present: the Deputy First Minister was a member of the group, as was other Deputy Presiding Officer, Mr Reid. I do not know if it is a convention of the chamber to refer to other parts of the building but we have other members of the group with us as well. We have an hour and a half to discuss some important business and, if possible, we should concentrate on the principles that underpin the motion before us. I also want to explain where we are in relation to the report and its suggestions. It is important that we acknowledge the tremendous groundwork that the CSG laid in creating a vision of a modern and accessible Parliament and endorse the four key principles that are at the root of the group's recommendations. The first principle is that power should be shared between the Parliament, the Executive and the people of Scotland. That is what all the parties championed throughout the election campaign and it is becoming a reality. The second principle is that the Executive should be accountable to the Parliament and the Parliament to the people of Scotland. After the previous weeks, I have no doubt that that is happening. The Executive will be much more accountable to the Parliament in Scotland than the Government is to the Parliament in Westminster. We all support that and want to work to ensure that it is a success. The Parliament has substantial powers, something which I support, and I am sure that those powers will be exercised responsibly and that the partnership of the people, the Executive and the Parliament can march forward together.", "EditedTextHTML": "As the former chairman of the consultative steering group on the Scottish Parliament, I am pleased to move the motion this morning but I am no more equipped to talk on the CSG recommendations than others who are present: the Deputy First Minister was a member of the group, as was other Deputy Presiding Officer, Mr Reid. I do not know if it is a convention of the chamber to refer to other parts of the building but we have other members of the group with us as well.

We have an hour and a half to discuss some important business and, if possible, we should concentrate on the principles that underpin the motion before us. I also want to explain where we are in relation to the report and its suggestions. It is important that we acknowledge the tremendous groundwork that the CSG laid in creating a vision of a modern and accessible Parliament and endorse the four key principles that are at the root of the group's recommendations.

The first principle is that power should be shared between the Parliament, the Executive and the people of Scotland. That is what all the parties championed throughout the election campaign and it is becoming a reality.

The second principle is that the Executive should be accountable to the Parliament and the Parliament to the people of Scotland. After the previous weeks, I have no doubt that that is happening. The Executive will be much more accountable to the Parliament in Scotland than the Government is to the Parliament in Westminster. We all support that and want to work to ensure that it is a success. The Parliament has substantial powers, something which I support, and I am sure that those powers will be exercised responsibly and that the partnership of the people, the Executive and the Parliament can march forward together.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.42035+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C704451", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Consultative Steering Group", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26614, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 29.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 29.0, "ID": 26614, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr George Reid (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 40.0, "ContributionID": 704451, "EditedText": "This Parliament does not belong to the politicians; ownership of this Parliament is vested solely in the people of Scotland. The consultative steering group grasped that fundamental principle. It saw that, in order to grow a new political culture, how this legislature functions was not just a matter of striking a balance between the Executive and the Parliament, but of shared decision making and the empowerment of the Scottish people. Above all, such a new culture had to involve those people in Scotland who had been excluded for far too long: women, young people, the one in 10 Scots with a disability, and all our ethnic minorities. As Mr McLeish rightly said, Parliament is not the sole source of policy development or expertise and those excluded voices should also be heard. The CSG saw that participation is the star by which to steer this Parliament. This morning, some of the group's members sit in the distinguished visitors' gallery. Their organisations—trade unions, local authorities, the business community, the Churches and our vibrant voluntary sector— represent civic Scotland's enduring strength. In the bleak years after 1979, they were a light in the darkness. In the first referendum, we Scots were feart; but, in the second referendum, thanks in large part to those organisations, we had the courage to embark on a process of constitutional change. I have spoken to my former CSG colleagues about the first month of the Parliament. One said, \"You never get a second chance to make a first impression.\" She is pleased with our openness and informality, but is less happy with some of our inherited Westminster ways. Mercifully, the recent awkwardities over allowances are now behind us and, in the weeks leading up to vesting day, I urge members to reflect on the motion in the names of Mr McLeish and Mr Wallace.There are many questions to answer. How do we share power with the people of Scotland? How do we devise a participative form of governance appropriate to the 21st century in a small country with tight lines of communication? How, at a pre- legislative stage, do we collect voices; and how, at a post-legislative stage, can we find out how our decisions are working in practice? The CSG has produced many models of best practice that have been culled from the Commonwealth and the European Union. I have no doubt that our committees will now take off and find a life of their own. Committees will be able to draw on expert assessors to participate in and inform their discussions. They will be able to convene their own citizens panels, and their reporters—called rapporteurs in Europe—will, as in Europe, be the focal point for minority interests. The issue of most concern to civic Scotland is the establishment of a civic forum. I welcome Mr McLeish's assurance that the Executive is investigating ways of giving it concrete assistance and support. The CSG saw the forum as a \"significant means of achieving an accessible Parliament within a participative democracy.\" All parties, pre-election, endorsed the concept of the forum, as did the coalition agreement of 14 May. More than 600 organisations from all walks of civic life have now formally registered an interest. The civic forum will promote participation, facilitate debate and ensure social partnership. It will be a gateway to the Parliament and its Executive, not a gate-keeper. The forum urgently needs a commitment of resources to establish itself as an independent body, to kick-start its work programme over the summer months and to enable it to recruit a small core staff team. High subscription levels will deter participation. Without some initial support from the Parliament it is difficult to see how the forum can get going. In his concluding remarks, Mr Wallace may flesh out what concrete assistance means. Is this a matter solely for the Executive? As a service to the Parliament, might not the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body and, if we decide to establish one, a committee of conveners be involved too? Does the minister accept that planning for the forum must start as soon as possible? Will he consider introducing a three-year package of core support? When the CSG report was published, the Deputy First Minister said that he was passionate for participation. In his concluding remarks, he can assure the chamber that his passion remains unabated and is going to be resourced.", "EditedTextHTML": "This Parliament does not belong to the politicians; ownership of this Parliament is vested solely in the people of Scotland. The consultative steering group grasped that fundamental principle. It saw that, in order to grow a new political culture, how this legislature functions was not just a matter of striking a balance between the Executive and the Parliament, but of shared decision making and the empowerment of the Scottish people. Above all, such a new culture had to involve those people in Scotland who had been excluded for far too long: women, young people, the one in 10 Scots with a disability, and all our ethnic minorities. As Mr McLeish rightly said, Parliament is not the sole source of policy development or expertise and those excluded voices should also be heard.

The CSG saw that participation is the star by which to steer this Parliament. This morning, some of the group's members sit in the distinguished visitors' gallery. Their organisations—trade unions, local authorities, the business community, the Churches and our vibrant voluntary sector— represent civic Scotland's enduring strength. In the bleak years after 1979, they were a light in the darkness. In the first referendum, we Scots were feart; but, in the second referendum, thanks in large part to those organisations, we had the courage to embark on a process of constitutional change.

I have spoken to my former CSG colleagues about the first month of the Parliament. One said, \"You never get a second chance to make a first impression.\" She is pleased with our openness and informality, but is less happy with some of our inherited Westminster ways. Mercifully, the recent awkwardities over allowances are now behind us and, in the weeks leading up to vesting day, I urge members to reflect on the motion in the names of

Mr McLeish and Mr Wallace.

There are many questions to answer. How do we share power with the people of Scotland? How do we devise a participative form of governance appropriate to the 21st century in a small country with tight lines of communication? How, at a pre- legislative stage, do we collect voices; and how, at a post-legislative stage, can we find out how our decisions are working in practice?

The CSG has produced many models of best practice that have been culled from the Commonwealth and the European Union. I have no doubt that our committees will now take off and find a life of their own. Committees will be able to draw on expert assessors to participate in and inform their discussions. They will be able to convene their own citizens panels, and their reporters—called rapporteurs in Europe—will, as in Europe, be the focal point for minority interests.

The issue of most concern to civic Scotland is the establishment of a civic forum. I welcome Mr McLeish's assurance that the Executive is investigating ways of giving it concrete assistance and support. The CSG saw the forum as a

\"significant means of achieving an accessible Parliament within a participative democracy.\"

All parties, pre-election, endorsed the concept of the forum, as did the coalition agreement of 14 May. More than 600 organisations from all walks of civic life have now formally registered an interest. The civic forum will promote participation, facilitate debate and ensure social partnership. It will be a gateway to the Parliament and its Executive, not a gate-keeper.

The forum urgently needs a commitment of resources to establish itself as an independent body, to kick-start its work programme over the summer months and to enable it to recruit a small core staff team. High subscription levels will deter participation. Without some initial support from the Parliament it is difficult to see how the forum can get going. In his concluding remarks, Mr Wallace may flesh out what concrete assistance means. Is this a matter solely for the Executive? As a service to the Parliament, might not the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body and, if we decide to establish one, a committee of conveners be involved too? Does the minister accept that planning for the forum must start as soon as possible? Will he consider introducing a three-year package of core support?

When the CSG report was published, the Deputy First Minister said that he was passionate for participation. In his concluding remarks, he can assure the chamber that his passion remains unabated and is going to be resourced.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.42035+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C704463", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Consultative Steering Group", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26614, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 29.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 29.0, "ID": 26614, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 65.0, "ContributionID": 704463, "EditedText": "On a point of order. Given that statement, can the Deputy Presiding Officer confirm that the Presiding Officer's words of yesterday will be taken into account, and that anyone who gives way will be allowed time in their speech for the time taken up by interventions?", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. Given that statement, can the Deputy Presiding Officer confirm that the Presiding Officer's words of yesterday will be taken into account, and that anyone who gives way will be allowed time in their speech for the time taken up by interventions?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.42035+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C704461", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Consultative Steering Group", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26614, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 29.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 29.0, "ID": 26614, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 61.0, "ContributionID": 704461, "EditedText": "That is a very sensible suggestion that I am happy to endorse. The Conservatives believe in constructive, honest and open politics based on principle. That is a far better way to proceed. We will bring to this Parliament ideas that are based on the policies and principles that were set out in our manifesto and we will seek the support of others to turn those ideas into legislation. Similarly, if other parties bring forward proposals with which we agree, we will not hesitate to support them. We judge each idea on its merits and issue by issue. That is the honest way to conduct politics in this Parliament. It is a process of constructive engagement between parties, which we intend to apply.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is a very sensible suggestion that I am happy to endorse. The Conservatives believe in constructive, honest and open politics based on principle. That is a far better way to proceed. We will bring to this Parliament ideas that are based on the policies and principles that were set out in our manifesto and we will seek the support of others to turn those ideas into legislation. Similarly, if other parties bring forward proposals with which we agree, we will not hesitate to support them. We judge each idea on its merits and issue by issue. That is the honest way to conduct politics in this Parliament. It is a process of constructive engagement between parties, which we intend to apply.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.42035+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1770E82P108C704469", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Consultative Steering Group", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26614, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 29.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 29.0, "ID": 26614, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Thomson, Elaine", "ID": 1770, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Thomson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Elaine Thomson (Aberdeen North) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 80.0, "ContributionID": 704469, "EditedText": "I support the motion. Rarely can a Parliament have been in the enviable position of starting from scratch and being able to adopt the best practice available. We can ensure that the most modern working methods are used to deliver efficient government and that some of the key words in the CSG report—accessible, open, responsive and participative—can be fleshed out and do not remain wishful thinking. Individuals and many organisations in the private, public and voluntary sectors have a strong desire for a different relationship with Government. Many of the structures proposed in the CSG report will go a long way towards building that. As someone who has worked to implement information technology for many years, I am excited by the opportunities contained in the report by the expert panel on information and communications technologies. I hope that all members have looked at the excellent Scottish Parliament website; all the information on who members are and what they think is available to anyone who wishes to look it up, and every word spoken in the chamber is available on the internet the following day. I agree with Fiona McLeod that there must be other ways of communicating with people, but I would point out that some 29 per cent of the adult population have access to the internet and a further 14 per cent will sign up this year. Through initiatives such as the national grid for learning and a free e-mail address for every child, the internet will be increasingly important in disseminating information. The opportunities that IT offers to overcome geographic remoteness are of interest to me. While my constituency is not especially remote, large parts of Scotland are. One of the CSG proposals is the development of community media centres and the use of video-conferencing technology, which will help to implement dialogue and participation between the Parliament and its committees and Scottish society, a key idea in the CSG report. For many groups, travelling to give evidence to committees will always be difficult and expensive, and that could be simply because of cost, age or disability. Committee meetings outside Edinburgh will always be only a partial solution to the problem, because there will always be someone at the other end of the country or someone for whom travelling on that particular day will be impossible because of winter weather. Making available desktop video-conferencing in every school for the use of the community is a way of turning into reality democratic participation by the community in this Parliament and its work.", "EditedTextHTML": "I support the motion. Rarely can a Parliament have been in the enviable position of starting from scratch and being able to adopt the best practice available. We can ensure that the most modern working methods are used to deliver efficient government and that some of the key words in the CSG report—accessible, open, responsive and participative—can be fleshed out and do not remain wishful thinking.

Individuals and many organisations in the private, public and voluntary sectors have a strong desire for a different relationship with Government. Many of the structures proposed in the CSG report will go a long way towards building that.

As someone who has worked to implement information technology for many years, I am excited by the opportunities contained in the report by the expert panel on information and communications technologies. I hope that all members have looked at the excellent Scottish Parliament website; all the information on who members are and what they think is available to anyone who wishes to look it up, and every word spoken in the chamber is available on the internet the following day. I agree with Fiona McLeod that there must be other ways of communicating with people, but I would point out that some 29 per cent of the adult population have access to the internet and a further 14 per cent will sign up this year. Through initiatives such as the national grid for learning and a free e-mail address for every child, the internet will be increasingly important in disseminating information.

The opportunities that IT offers to overcome geographic remoteness are of interest to me. While my constituency is not especially remote, large parts of Scotland are. One of the CSG proposals is the development of community media centres and the use of video-conferencing technology, which will help to implement dialogue and participation between the Parliament and its committees and Scottish society, a key idea in the CSG report. For many groups, travelling to give evidence to committees will always be difficult and expensive, and that could be simply because of cost, age or disability. Committee meetings outside Edinburgh will always be only a partial solution to the problem, because there will always be someone at the other end of the country or someone for whom travelling on that particular day will be impossible because of winter weather.

Making available desktop video-conferencing in every school for the use of the community is a way of turning into reality democratic participation by the community in this Parliament and its work.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.42035+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2188E70P92C704474", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Consultative Steering Group", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26614, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 29.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 29.0, "ID": 26614, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harper, Robin", "ID": 2188, "PartyName": "Scottish Green Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Green", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robin Harper", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robin Harper (Lothians) (Green): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 93.0, "ContributionID": 704474, "EditedText": "Madam Deputy Presiding Officer, I owe Malcolm Chisholm an apology from yesterday, for referring to him as Malcolm Bruce. I notice that that has been corrected in the Official Report; it comes from the Liberal Democrats joining up with the Labour party. I would like to draw members' attention to page 11, paragraph 41 of the CSG report, on committees. It reads: \"In summary it is clear that there is no single model for consultation, participation and involvement which is appropriate in every case. The Parliament should be invited to encourage its Committees to adopt different mechanisms appropriate to the issue under consideration.\" That is one of the most important paragraphs in this excellent document. It says that the committees should be encouraged to develop their own participative mechanisms. However, I should like to take that further and develop it. As I mentioned yesterday, a few of us attended the last meeting of People and Parliament, chaired by Canon Kenyon Wright, who is with us today. People and Parliament will produce one further report, which can be presented to us for consideration. I suggest that the Executive require every committee of this Parliament, before it starts its business, to address itself, as a matter of priority, to the reports of People and Parliament, and to work out how it will relate to the public. Committees should also draw up their own priorities, especially for dealing with groups that are not represented in this Parliament. They should set targets for their participative engagements and report back on how they have achieved them—or on the progress that they have made towards achieving them—by the end of the year. Although I know that this is not the moment to move formally that the Executive proceed along those lines, I implore it to make a recommendation of the sort that I have outlined to all the committees of the Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "Madam Deputy Presiding Officer, I owe Malcolm Chisholm an apology from yesterday, for referring to him as Malcolm Bruce. I notice that that has been corrected in the Official Report; it comes from the Liberal Democrats joining up with the Labour party.

I would like to draw members' attention to page 11, paragraph 41 of the CSG report, on committees. It reads:

\"In summary it is clear that there is no single model for consultation, participation and involvement which is appropriate in every case. The Parliament should be invited to encourage its Committees to adopt different mechanisms appropriate to the issue under consideration.\"

That is one of the most important paragraphs in this excellent document. It says that the committees should be encouraged to develop their own participative mechanisms. However, I should like to take that further and develop it.

As I mentioned yesterday, a few of us attended the last meeting of People and Parliament, chaired by Canon Kenyon Wright, who is with us today. People and Parliament will produce one further report, which can be presented to us for consideration. I suggest that the Executive require every committee of this Parliament, before it starts its business, to address itself, as a matter of priority, to the reports of People and Parliament, and to work out how it will relate to the public. Committees should also draw up their own priorities, especially for dealing with groups that are not represented in this Parliament. They should set targets for their participative engagements and report back on how they have achieved them—or on the progress that they have made towards achieving them—by the end of the year.

Although I know that this is not the moment to move formally that the Executive proceed along those lines, I implore it to make a recommendation of the sort that I have outlined to all the committees of the Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.42035+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1803E78P291C704475", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Consultative Steering Group", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26614, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 29.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 29.0, "ID": 26614, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gillon, Karen", "ID": 1803, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Clydesdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Karen Gillon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Karen Gillon (Clydesdale) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 96.0, "ContributionID": 704475, "EditedText": "It is with considerable pride that I speak today for the first time as the member of the Scottish Parliament for Clydesdale. However, that does not compare with the pride that I felt when I was elected as the first ever woman member of this Scottish Parliament early on the morning of 7 May. I was proud, obviously, for myself and my family and friends, but I was prouder for the people of Clydesdale, who have in the past sent women to Parliament—women of the calibre of Judith Hart. In sending me here, they sent a clear indication of the new Scotland that this Parliament represents. In sending a working-class woman, born and brought up in rural Scotland—in Jedburgh—whose mother was a single parent, struggling every day to live on poverty wages, the people of Clydesdale said that this is truly a Parliament for everyone in Scotland. Let us be honest: not many people in Clydesdale have heard of the consultative steering group, or of the excellent recommendations in its report. If we implement those recommendations well, they will have an impact on the everyday lives of everyone in Clydesdale and Scotland. I have spent my working life in Lanarkshire dealing with young people who every day experience social exclusion—before we even invented the phrase. The CSG report will begin to reconnect those young people. They think that politics and the political process do not matter. The report is about making politics real, which is why I want to see all pupils visit this Parliament at least once in their school life to see us at work, to see how laws are made and to see how business is done. Westminster could never have achieved that. I therefore support the establishment of a youth parliament, to give our young people a real say in how Scotland is run as we enter the new millennium. I welcome the report's commitment to family-friendly working practices, which will enable women—and men—to be active politicians, while spending quality time with their families. That is why we must constantly consult civic Scotland, community organisations, voluntary organisations, the Churches, employers and trade unions, all of which have a stake in our society and in this Parliament. I welcome Henry McLeish's commitment to establish the civic forum and to continue consultation. That is what we are about: a Parliament for all of Scotland. The CSG report is not just about words. It is about action: action for the woman stuck at home because she cannot afford child care; action for the young man who is bullied at school because of his sexuality; action for the pensioner who is scared to leave home at night because of the crime on our streets; action for the man who is unemployed simply because of the colour of his skin. The report sends a message about a Parliament for all of Scotland, which will listen to all of Scotland, represent all of Scotland and act for all of Scotland. I commend the report to members.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is with considerable pride that I speak today for the first time as the member of the Scottish Parliament for Clydesdale. However, that does not compare with the pride that I felt when I was elected as the first ever woman member of this Scottish Parliament early on the morning of 7 May.

I was proud, obviously, for myself and my family and friends, but I was prouder for the people of Clydesdale, who have in the past sent women to Parliament—women of the calibre of Judith Hart. In sending me here, they sent a clear indication of the new Scotland that this Parliament represents. In sending a working-class woman, born and brought up in rural Scotland—in Jedburgh—whose mother was a single parent, struggling every day to live on poverty wages, the people of Clydesdale said that this is truly a Parliament for everyone in Scotland.

Let us be honest: not many people in Clydesdale have heard of the consultative steering group, or of the excellent recommendations in its report. If we implement those recommendations well, they will have an impact on the everyday lives of everyone in Clydesdale and Scotland.

I have spent my working life in Lanarkshire dealing with young people who every day experience social exclusion—before we even invented the phrase. The CSG report will begin to reconnect those young people. They think that politics and the political process do not matter. The report is about making politics real, which is why I want to see all pupils visit this Parliament at least once in their school life to see us at work, to see how laws are made and to see how business is done. Westminster could never have achieved that. I therefore support the establishment of a youth parliament, to give our young people a real say in how Scotland is run as we enter the new millennium. I welcome the report's commitment to family-friendly working practices, which will enable women—and men—to be active politicians, while spending quality time with their families.

That is why we must constantly consult civic Scotland, community organisations, voluntary organisations, the Churches, employers and trade unions, all of which have a stake in our society

and in this Parliament. I welcome Henry McLeish's commitment to establish the civic forum and to continue consultation. That is what we are about: a Parliament for all of Scotland.

The CSG report is not just about words. It is about action: action for the woman stuck at home because she cannot afford child care; action for the young man who is bullied at school because of his sexuality; action for the pensioner who is scared to leave home at night because of the crime on our streets; action for the man who is unemployed simply because of the colour of his skin.

The report sends a message about a Parliament for all of Scotland, which will listen to all of Scotland, represent all of Scotland and act for all of Scotland. I commend the report to members.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.42035+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C704482", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Consultative Steering Group", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26614, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 29.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 29.0, "ID": 26614, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 116.0, "ContributionID": 704482, "EditedText": "Will the Deputy First Minister confirm that the European convention on human rights also applies to legislation passed in the Westminster Parliament which, as we heard earlier, also impacts on devolved legislation? I am thinking of the Immigration and Asylum Bill, for example.", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the Deputy First Minister confirm that the European convention on human rights also applies to legislation passed in the Westminster Parliament which, as we heard earlier, also impacts on devolved legislation? I am thinking of the Immigration and Asylum Bill, for example.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1906E278P355C704484", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Consultative Steering Group", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26614, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 29.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 29.0, "ID": 26614, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Welsh, Andrew", "ID": 1906, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Angus" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Welsh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Andrew Welsh (Angus) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 120.0, "ContributionID": 704484, "EditedText": "If Mr Wallace agrees with the importance of the civic forum in advancing democratic input, what practical assistance does he intend to give it, and over what time scale? Can he comment on MSPs' access to civil servants?", "EditedTextHTML": "If Mr Wallace agrees with the importance of the civic forum in advancing democratic input, what practical assistance does he intend to give it, and over what time scale? Can he comment on MSPs' access to civil servants?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C704489", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26615, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 130.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 130.0, "ID": 26615, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 131.0, "ContributionID": 704489, "EditedText": "The standing orders allow for 10 minutes' debate on the business motion, with one speaker for and one against. Members should indicate if they wish to speak against the business motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "The standing orders allow for 10 minutes' debate on the business motion, with one speaker for and one against. Members should indicate if they wish to speak against the business motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2228E151P202C704492", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26615, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 130.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 130.0, "ID": 26615, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McCabe, Tom", "ID": 2228, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Tom McCabe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McCabe: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 138.0, "ContributionID": 704492, "EditedText": "A further question time will then be held on the afternoon of Thursday 24 June.", "EditedTextHTML": "A further question time will then be held on the afternoon of Thursday 24 June.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704497", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26615, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 130.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 130.0, "ID": 26615, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 145.0, "ContributionID": 704497, "EditedText": "2.30 pm Statement by the First Minister and debate on the Executive's legislative proposals 5.00 pm Decision Time", "EditedTextHTML": "2.30 pm Statement by the First Minister and debate on the Executive's legislative proposals 5.00 pm Decision Time

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704501", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26615, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 130.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 130.0, "ID": 26615, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 149.0, "ContributionID": 704501, "EditedText": "9.30 am Continuation of debate on the proposed legislative programme followed by", "EditedTextHTML": "9.30 am Continuation of debate on the proposed legislative programme followed by

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704505", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26615, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 130.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 130.0, "ID": 26615, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 153.0, "ContributionID": 704505, "EditedText": "Motion proposing establishment of committees (to be taken without debate)", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion proposing establishment of committees (to be taken without debate)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704512", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26615, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 130.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 130.0, "ID": 26615, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 160.0, "ContributionID": 704512, "EditedText": "2.30 pm Question Time 3.00 pm Open Question Time followed by No later than 3.15 pm Debate on Financial Issues", "EditedTextHTML": "2.30 pm Question Time 3.00 pm Open Question Time followed by No later than 3.15 pm Debate on Financial Issues

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704513", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26615, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 130.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 130.0, "ID": 26615, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 161.0, "ContributionID": 704513, "EditedText": "5.00 pm Decision Time", "EditedTextHTML": "5.00 pm Decision Time

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C704514", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26615, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 130.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 130.0, "ID": 26615, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 162.0, "ContributionID": 704514, "EditedText": "I now ask Mr McCabe to move motion S1M-34 formally.", "EditedTextHTML": "I now ask Mr McCabe to move motion S1M-34 formally.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704517", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26615, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 130.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 130.0, "ID": 26615, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 166.0, "ContributionID": 704517, "EditedText": "Monday 21 to Friday 25 June and Monday 28 June to Friday 2 July and (2) the summer recess should begin on Friday 2 July 1999 after the business of that day has been concluded and should end on Monday 30 August 1999, with the next meeting of the Parliament being held on or after Tuesday 31 August 1999.—Mr McCabe.", "EditedTextHTML": "Monday 21 to Friday 25 June and Monday 28 June to Friday 2 July and (2) the summer recess should begin on Friday 2 July 1999 after the business of that day has been concluded and should end on Monday 30 August 1999, with the next meeting of the Parliament being held on or after Tuesday 31 August 1999.—[Mr McCabe.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704519", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26616, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 167.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 167.0, "ID": 26616, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 171.0, "ContributionID": 704519, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C704521", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26616, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 167.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 167.0, "ID": 26616, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 173.0, "ContributionID": 704521, "EditedText": "The question is, that motion S1M-34, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "The question is, that motion S1M-34, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704522", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26616, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 167.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 167.0, "ID": 26616, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 175.0, "ContributionID": 704522, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704524", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26616, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 167.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 167.0, "ID": 26616, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 177.0, "ContributionID": 704524, "EditedText": "Meeting closed at 12:28.", "EditedTextHTML": "Meeting closed at 12:28.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C704460", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Consultative Steering Group", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26614, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 29.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 29.0, "ID": 26614, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr John Swinney (Tayside North) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 59.0, "ContributionID": 704460, "EditedText": "I am grateful to Mr McLetchie for giving way. I would like to push him on a specific point about the use of consensus in this Parliament for pursuing the objectives of the CSG report. In the last couple of days there has been a great deal of scrutiny of office costs and allowances issues. There is a need in this Parliament to extend that scrutiny and consideration to the work of special advisers and the support that they give to the ministerial team. Is not that an illustration of how the CSG principles can be extended to push the boundaries of the CSG report and to bring the Administration to account as effectively as the Opposition will be brought to account as a result of the way in which the Administration voted yesterday?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful to Mr McLetchie for giving way. I would like to push him on a specific point about the use of consensus in this Parliament for pursuing the objectives of the CSG report. In the last couple of days there has been a great deal of scrutiny of office costs and allowances issues. There is a need in this Parliament to extend that scrutiny and consideration to the work of special advisers and the support that they give to the ministerial team. Is not that an illustration of how the CSG principles can be extended to push the boundaries of the CSG report and to bring the Administration to account as effectively as the Opposition will be

brought to account as a result of the way in which the Administration voted yesterday?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:33:46.8831798+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1870E181P475C704473", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Consultative Steering Group", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26614, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 29.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 29.0, "ID": 26614, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robison, Shona", "ID": 1870, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Shona Robison", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Shona Robison (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 90.0, "ContributionID": 704473, "EditedText": "I will address the equal opportunities recommendations of the CSG report. The area of equal opportunities will be of key importance to the work of this Parliament. It is unfortunate that equal opportunities legislation remains a reserved matter, because that will be a frustrating barrier to the work of this Parliament. However, that should not reduce the importance of making sure that legislation emanating from this Parliament does not discriminate against any section of Scotland's society. The Equal Opportunities Committee will have a key role in ensuring that that does not happen, but we must do much more. Alex Salmond said yesterday that we have a Scottish Parliament without any elected representatives from Scotland's ethnic minority communities or people with disabilities. We must take early action to remedy that imbalance. We can go some way towards achieving that, by making sure that the Parliament's committees invite representatives from under-represented sections of society. People can advise committees, but we do not want such consultation to be token. Rather, we want it to provide real input in the early stages of policy making in this Parliament. This is about not just MSPs, but the Scottish Parliament as an employer. I should be interested to know, for example, how many of the staff who are employed in the Scottish Parliament are from an ethnic minority background or have a disability. It would be appropriate for the Equal Opportunities Committee to conduct an early audit, so that that could be looked at.Another early task of the Equal Opportunities Committee will be to produce a policy statement and plan. I implore that committee to avoid the jargon that many see as the domain of the chattering classes and instead to come up with an equal opportunities policy statement and plan that has relevance to the lives of all Scotland's people. I will finish with a comment from the CSG report on the style of decision making: \"The traditional Westminster style of point-scoring, quick repartee, aggression and counter-aggression is alienating for most women, people with a different cultural background, many disabled people and indeed, many men. To promote inclusiveness it will be important to set a style that listens to views, seeks to find solutions to problems and allows for the development of constructive argument and debate.\" Like many other people, I am sure, I feel that that has been sadly lacking in the debates so far. I hope that we will all take on board the spirit and recommendations of the CSG report.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will address the equal opportunities recommendations of the CSG report. The area of equal opportunities will be of key importance to the work of this Parliament. It is unfortunate that equal opportunities legislation remains a reserved matter, because that will be a frustrating barrier to the work of this Parliament. However, that should not reduce the importance of making sure that legislation emanating from this Parliament does not discriminate against any section of Scotland's society.

The Equal Opportunities Committee will have a key role in ensuring that that does not happen, but we must do much more. Alex Salmond said yesterday that we have a Scottish Parliament without any elected representatives from Scotland's ethnic minority communities or people with disabilities. We must take early action to remedy that imbalance. We can go some way towards achieving that, by making sure that the Parliament's committees invite representatives from under-represented sections of society. People can advise committees, but we do not want such consultation to be token. Rather, we want it to provide real input in the early stages of policy making in this Parliament.

This is about not just MSPs, but the Scottish Parliament as an employer. I should be interested to know, for example, how many of the staff who are employed in the Scottish Parliament are from an ethnic minority background or have a disability. It would be appropriate for the Equal Opportunities Committee to conduct an early audit, so that that

could be looked at.

Another early task of the Equal Opportunities Committee will be to produce a policy statement and plan. I implore that committee to avoid the jargon that many see as the domain of the chattering classes and instead to come up with an equal opportunities policy statement and plan that has relevance to the lives of all Scotland's people.

I will finish with a comment from the CSG report on the style of decision making:

\"The traditional Westminster style of point-scoring, quick repartee, aggression and counter-aggression is alienating for most women, people with a different cultural background, many disabled people and indeed, many men. To promote inclusiveness it will be important to set a style that listens to views, seeks to find solutions to problems and allows for the development of constructive argument and debate.\"

Like many other people, I am sure, I feel that that has been sadly lacking in the debates so far. I hope that we will all take on board the spirit and recommendations of the CSG report.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:01:26.0699041+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C704439", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "UK Parliament Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26613, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26613, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie (Lothians) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 13.0, "ContributionID": 704439, "EditedText": "I am happy to accept the principle that the Scottish Parliament should give its consent on future bills that would apply on a UK-wide basis. Unlike the Scottish National party, the Scottish Conservatives, as a unionist party, have no problem in accepting that some acts—even those that cover devolved areas—should be enacted uniformly across the UK. The establishment of the food standards agency is a clear case in point. As we stated in our manifesto, there should be a common standard across the whole of the UK to ensure that our producers, processors, retailers and restaurateurs are not subject to more stringent regulations than those that apply elsewhere in the UK. The First Minister said that he did not wish to go into specifics, but one of the specifics that relates to the food standards agency will be the method by which it is funded. I give notice that we are wholly opposed to the proposal that the agency should be funded by a flat-rate levy and we will oppose that when it comes before the Scottish Parliament for deliberation. I hope that other parties will support us in our opposition to that corner shop tax, which would mean that small local shops would pay the same amount as large supermarkets to fund the agency. The First Minister should invite the Westminster Government to revisit the issue. That issue will put the coalition parties in some difficulty again, because the Liberal Democrats were unusually adamant when they said in their manifesto: \"We will abolish the flat rate levy on Scottish food premises to fund the Agency.\" One of their candidates, Mr Mackie, was so disappointed with that proposal that he suggested the introduction of VAT on food as an alternative funding mechanism. On the issue of the food standards agency and its funding, will the coalition parties be free to differ or will the principle of collective responsibility apply to the coalition Government? Alternatively, as with tuition fees, will we have yet another committee of inquiry to try to get some people off the hook? I am unhappy with the arrangements that have been announced by the First Minister to deal with current bills in progress at Westminster. I believe that the principle that the Scottish Parliament should give its consent should apply to those current bills that cover devolved areas. During the election campaign, we indicated that we were unhappy that the Health Bill—which covers one of the principal devolved functions of this Parliament and involves the expenditure of one third of the total Scottish Office block—was to be discussed and determined at Westminster. Given that this Parliament operates on a different time scale from the one at Westminster and will resume its deliberations in September, will the First Minister make time available under Executive business for the Scottish Parliament to express a view on the Health Bill and the other bills in progress? I think that it would be arrogant to proceed otherwise—if we applied the principle of consent and debate to all bills, we would set down an important marker.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am happy to accept the principle that the Scottish Parliament should give its consent on future bills that would apply on a UK-wide basis. Unlike the Scottish National party, the Scottish Conservatives, as a unionist party, have no problem in accepting that

some acts—even those that cover devolved areas—should be enacted uniformly across the UK.

The establishment of the food standards agency is a clear case in point. As we stated in our manifesto, there should be a common standard across the whole of the UK to ensure that our producers, processors, retailers and restaurateurs are not subject to more stringent regulations than those that apply elsewhere in the UK. The First Minister said that he did not wish to go into specifics, but one of the specifics that relates to the food standards agency will be the method by which it is funded. I give notice that we are wholly opposed to the proposal that the agency should be funded by a flat-rate levy and we will oppose that when it comes before the Scottish Parliament for deliberation. I hope that other parties will support us in our opposition to that corner shop tax, which would mean that small local shops would pay the same amount as large supermarkets to fund the agency. The First Minister should invite the Westminster Government to revisit the issue.

That issue will put the coalition parties in some difficulty again, because the Liberal Democrats were unusually adamant when they said in their manifesto:

\"We will abolish the flat rate levy on Scottish food premises to fund the Agency.\"

One of their candidates, Mr Mackie, was so disappointed with that proposal that he suggested the introduction of VAT on food as an alternative funding mechanism.

On the issue of the food standards agency and its funding, will the coalition parties be free to differ or will the principle of collective responsibility apply to the coalition Government? Alternatively, as with tuition fees, will we have yet another committee of inquiry to try to get some people off the hook?

I am unhappy with the arrangements that have been announced by the First Minister to deal with current bills in progress at Westminster. I believe that the principle that the Scottish Parliament should give its consent should apply to those current bills that cover devolved areas. During the election campaign, we indicated that we were unhappy that the Health Bill—which covers one of the principal devolved functions of this Parliament and involves the expenditure of one third of the total Scottish Office block—was to be discussed and determined at Westminster.

Given that this Parliament operates on a different time scale from the one at Westminster and will resume its deliberations in September, will the First Minister make time available under Executive business for the Scottish Parliament to express a view on the Health Bill and the other bills in progress? I think that it would be arrogant to proceed otherwise—if we applied the principle of consent and debate to all bills, we would set down an important marker.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.42035+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C704441", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "UK Parliament Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26613, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26613, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan (Falkirk West): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 17.0, "ContributionID": 704441, "EditedText": "The legislation to impose tuition fees for higher education and to abolish student grants was passed by the Westminster Parliament, but those subjects are now to be considered by a committee of inquiry under the so-called partnership agreement. Will the First Minister give an absolute assurance that the Scottish Parliament will be free to legislate on those matters, given that the majority of members were elected on a commitment to abolish tuition fees and that many of us also want student grants to be restored, particularly for students from low-income families?", "EditedTextHTML": "The legislation to impose tuition fees for higher education and to abolish student grants was passed by the Westminster Parliament, but those subjects are now to be considered by a committee of inquiry under the so-called partnership agreement. Will the First Minister give an absolute assurance that the Scottish Parliament will be free to legislate on those matters, given that the majority of members were elected on a commitment to abolish tuition fees and that many of us also want student grants to be restored, particularly for students from low-income families?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.42035+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C704449", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Consultative Steering Group", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26614, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 29.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 29.0, "ID": 26614, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Alex Salmond (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 35.0, "ContributionID": 704449, "EditedText": "As the minister knows, I welcome most of the recommendations in the CSG report. With regard to parliamentary accountability, am I right in thinking that the CSG intended that there should be an ability specifically to question the First Minister? Can Henry McLeish enlighten the chamber as to whether that would be done at open question time, or whether there would be the highly desirable possibility of the First Minister facing questions, not just from the Leader of the Opposition, but from any member?", "EditedTextHTML": "As the minister knows, I welcome most of the recommendations in the CSG report. With regard to parliamentary accountability, am I right in thinking that the CSG intended that there should be an ability specifically to question the First Minister? Can Henry McLeish enlighten the chamber as to whether that would be done at open question time, or whether there would be the highly desirable possibility of the First Minister facing questions, not just from the Leader of the Opposition, but from any member?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.42035+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C704464", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Consultative Steering Group", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26614, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 29.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 29.0, "ID": 26614, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 67.0, "ContributionID": 704464, "EditedText": "As always, we will be flexible about that, but it is up to individual members to decide whether they will take interventions.", "EditedTextHTML": "As always, we will be flexible about that, but it is up to individual members to decide whether they will take interventions.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.42035+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C704454", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Consultative Steering Group", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26614, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 29.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 29.0, "ID": 26614, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 47.0, "ContributionID": 704454, "EditedText": "—and it is worth reflecting that the new emphasis on choice and standards in education—Mr Sheridan, unlike the poor drivers on other benches, I am always happy to give way.", "EditedTextHTML": "—and it is worth reflecting that the new emphasis on choice and standards in education—Mr Sheridan, unlike the poor drivers on other benches, I am always happy to give way.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.42035+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C704456", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Consultative Steering Group", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26614, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 29.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 29.0, "ID": 26614, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 51.0, "ContributionID": 704456, "EditedText": "Before Mr McLetchie responds, I remind members that interventions should be about the substance of the debate—a little more clearly, perhaps, than was Mr Sheridan's intervention.", "EditedTextHTML": "Before Mr McLetchie responds, I remind members that interventions should be about the substance of the debate—a little more clearly, perhaps, than was Mr Sheridan's intervention.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.42035+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C704458", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Consultative Steering Group", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26614, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 29.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 29.0, "ID": 26614, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 55.0, "ContributionID": 704458, "EditedText": "Can not we make a distinction between the consultative steering group report, which set out the procedures of the Parliament and which should be generally welcomed, and the practices of the coalition Administration, which should be deplored for trying to seize the Opposition's assets in order to inhibit it? Even as Opposition parties, we can surely welcome an organisation such as the CSG, which has tried in a fair-minded manner to set out the terms of debate, while obviously deploring at the same time the practices of those who try to inhibit opposition. There are surely aspects of the motion that can be generally welcomed, even by Opposition parties.", "EditedTextHTML": "Can not we make a distinction between the consultative steering group report, which set out the procedures of the Parliament and which should be generally welcomed, and the practices of the coalition Administration, which should be deplored for trying to seize the Opposition's assets in order to inhibit it? Even as Opposition parties, we can surely welcome an organisation such as the CSG, which has tried in a fair-minded manner to set out the terms of debate, while obviously deploring at the same time the practices of those who try to inhibit opposition. There are surely aspects of the motion that can be generally welcomed, even by Opposition parties.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.42035+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C704462", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Consultative Steering Group", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26614, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 29.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 29.0, "ID": 26614, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 63.0, "ContributionID": 704462, "EditedText": "I am delighted to see that a large number of members have indicated that they wish to take part in this debate. For that reason it will be necessary from now on to limit contributions to three minutes.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am delighted to see that a large number of members have indicated that they wish to take part in this debate. For that reason it will be necessary from now on to limit contributions to three minutes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.42035+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1775E171P452C704466", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Consultative Steering Group", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26614, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 29.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 29.0, "ID": 26614, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeod, Fiona", "ID": 1775, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona McLeod", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona McLeod (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 73.0, "ContributionID": 704466, "EditedText": "I want to address the draft information strategy. We talk about an open, accessible and participative democracy, but to achieve it we need a high standard of parliamentary information services. Any information strategy for this Parliament must be part of an integrated information strategy for the whole country. Already, this small country has a plethora— indeed, some would say a surfeit—of information initiatives. As a librarian, I should be delighted that the information needs of our society are so high on the agenda. Instead, I am horrified at the haphazard, unco-ordinated manner in which vast sums of public money are being spent. A rough estimate of the moneys already committed runs to hundreds of millions of pounds. One librarian recently remarked to me, \"Scotland could be wired to the moon and back for these sums.\" The worst aspect of many such projects is that they are often mutually exclusive and many elements of service are duplicated. Earlier this year, the Scottish Library Information Council produced a report entitled, \"Enabling seamless access: The case for a national information strategy for Scotland\". It may sound boring, but I urge all members to read it and the Scottish Parliament information centre's research note 99/8 entitled, \"The Parliament's information strategy\". The SLIC report says that, without co-ordination, the continued growth of separate networks may in the long term prevent the development of the \"seamless access\" to information and knowledge that is clearly in the interests of Scotland's citizens. The draft information strategy and annexe J of the CSG report, which deals with information and communication technologies and democratic participation, give more examples of the need for co-ordination of a national information strategy. A total of 73 partner libraries in constituencies throughout the country are now linked with the Parliament library; all 73 are public libraries. The public libraries network, which would allow constituents access to parliamentary information at the branch library closest to them, does not yet exist, and it looks increasingly unlikely that the target date of 2002 for its launch will be met. Even if such a network were in place, it must be remembered that the internet is not always the best solution to people's information needs. Skills are needed to use the technology and money is needed to pay the charges that most libraries are forced to levy. If the Government is able to deliver on its promise of an e-mail address for every pupil, schoolchildren will have free local access to the Scottish Parliament, yet their parents will not. That begs the question: why is there one network for schools and another for libraries?", "EditedTextHTML": "I want to address the draft information strategy. We talk about an open, accessible and participative democracy, but to achieve it we need a high standard of parliamentary information services. Any information strategy for this Parliament must be part of an integrated information strategy for the whole country.

Already, this small country has a plethora— indeed, some would say a surfeit—of information initiatives. As a librarian, I should be delighted that the information needs of our society are so high on

the agenda. Instead, I am horrified at the haphazard, unco-ordinated manner in which vast sums of public money are being spent. A rough estimate of the moneys already committed runs to hundreds of millions of pounds. One librarian recently remarked to me, \"Scotland could be wired to the moon and back for these sums.\"

The worst aspect of many such projects is that they are often mutually exclusive and many elements of service are duplicated.

Earlier this year, the Scottish Library Information Council produced a report entitled, \"Enabling seamless access: The case for a national information strategy for Scotland\". It may sound boring, but I urge all members to read it and the Scottish Parliament information centre's research note 99/8 entitled, \"The Parliament's information strategy\". The SLIC report says that, without co-ordination, the continued growth of separate networks may in the long term prevent the development of the \"seamless access\" to information and knowledge that is clearly in the interests of Scotland's citizens.

The draft information strategy and annexe J of the CSG report, which deals with information and communication technologies and democratic participation, give more examples of the need for co-ordination of a national information strategy.

A total of 73 partner libraries in constituencies throughout the country are now linked with the Parliament library; all 73 are public libraries. The public libraries network, which would allow constituents access to parliamentary information at the branch library closest to them, does not yet exist, and it looks increasingly unlikely that the target date of 2002 for its launch will be met.

Even if such a network were in place, it must be remembered that the internet is not always the best solution to people's information needs. Skills are needed to use the technology and money is needed to pay the charges that most libraries are forced to levy. If the Government is able to deliver on its promise of an e-mail address for every pupil, schoolchildren will have free local access to the Scottish Parliament, yet their parents will not. That begs the question: why is there one network for schools and another for libraries?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.42035+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1770E82P108C704471", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Consultative Steering Group", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26614, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 29.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 29.0, "ID": 26614, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Thomson, Elaine", "ID": 1770, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Thomson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Elaine Thomson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 84.0, "ContributionID": 704471, "EditedText": "Technology is developing at a great speed; our use of it must be forward looking and strategic. The move to the new Parliament building in a few years will allow us to examine how well things are working now and to plan even more effectively for the future. The groundwork that was done by members of the CSG and the expert ICT panel has provided us with an excellent framework. I congratulate all those involved.", "EditedTextHTML": "Technology is developing at a great speed; our use of it must be forward looking and strategic. The move to the new Parliament building in a few years will allow us to examine how well things are working now and to plan even more effectively for the future. The groundwork that was done by members of the CSG and the expert ICT panel has provided us with an excellent framework. I congratulate all those involved.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.42035+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704503", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26615, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 130.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 130.0, "ID": 26615, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 151.0, "ContributionID": 704503, "EditedText": "2.30 pm Question Time 3.00 pm Open Question Time followed by No later than 3.15 pm", "EditedTextHTML": "2.30 pm Question Time 3.00 pm Open Question Time followed by No later than 3.15 pm

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.42035+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704504", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26615, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 130.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 130.0, "ID": 26615, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 152.0, "ContributionID": 704504, "EditedText": "Debate on S1M-2 (Mr Jim Wallace) on Tuition Fees followed by", "EditedTextHTML": "Debate on S1M-2 (Mr Jim Wallace) on Tuition Fees followed by

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.42035+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2234E7P20C704472", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Consultative Steering Group", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26614, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 29.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 29.0, "ID": 26614, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Aitken, Bill", "ID": 2234, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bill Aitken", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bill Aitken (Glasgow) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 87.0, "ContributionID": 704472, "EditedText": "It would be churlish to say other than that the group did a sound and thorough job in preparing its fairly lengthy report. Most of it, of course, is common sense, and common sense is the way in which we would wish to run things. However, David McLetchie was correct to point out that the language used in the report is indicative of the fact that we are getting far too hung up on what is euphemistically termed the new politics and political correctness. What is meant by new politics? Of course, we do not wish unnecessary confrontation, or to have members of this chamber abusing one another, but all of us were elected as members of political parties and all of us have differing and sincerely and deeply held political beliefs. If we cannot argue those beliefs forcefully and determinedly, we are not being loyal to those beliefs. We can argue without any animosity at the end of the day. We should bear that in mind. We would do well to remember that there is nothing wrong with introducing a bit of passion into politics. I am intrigued by some other aspects of the report. It states that we should use \"simple, clear, inclusive and non-gender specific\"language—whatever that means. I have some difficulty in reconciling that aim with page 64 of the report, where the word unicameral is used. Reference to \"The Chambers Dictionary\" leads me to believe that that word means one chamber. I have some difficulty with other aspects of the report. Henry McLeish said that the key principles of the report ensured that the Executive would be more accountable, but I have difficulty in equating that with the somewhat restrictive approach that has been taken towards parliamentary questions. I also have difficulty with the fact that when a minister is the subject of a motion of no confidence imposed by Parliament, there is no necessity for that individual to resign. I found the public participation aspect of the report to be of tremendous interest. Clearly, as Henry McLeish said, this chamber does not have a monopoly on wisdom. Out there, there is a great deal of untapped knowledge and expertise that Parliament would do well to seek and utilise. However, there are dangers in doing that, and when we come to consider our public participation approach, it will be necessary to do so in such a manner as to separate the wheat from the chaff. We must ensure that public participation is consistently positive and that we do not leave ourselves open to cranks and one-issue activists, who would not, to my mind, be the appropriate people to consult. Other aspects of the report are worthy of more detailed study, but basically it provides us with a sound framework. I hope that as matters evolve we will use the report as a basis, but perhaps no more than a basis, for the form that this Parliament will take.", "EditedTextHTML": "It would be churlish to say other than that the group did a sound and thorough job in preparing its fairly lengthy report. Most of it, of course, is common sense, and common sense is the way in which we would wish to run things. However, David McLetchie was correct to point out that the language used in the report is indicative of the fact that we are getting far too hung up on what is euphemistically termed the new politics and political correctness.

What is meant by new politics? Of course, we do not wish unnecessary confrontation, or to have members of this chamber abusing one another, but all of us were elected as members of political parties and all of us have differing and sincerely and deeply held political beliefs. If we cannot argue those beliefs forcefully and determinedly, we are not being loyal to those beliefs. We can argue without any animosity at the end of the day. We should bear that in mind. We would do well to remember that there is nothing wrong with introducing a bit of passion into politics.

I am intrigued by some other aspects of the report. It states that we should use

\"simple, clear, inclusive and non-gender specific\"

language—whatever that means. I have some difficulty in reconciling that aim with page 64 of the report, where the word unicameral is used. Reference to \"The Chambers Dictionary\" leads me to believe that that word means one chamber.

I have some difficulty with other aspects of the report. Henry McLeish said that the key principles of the report ensured that the Executive would be more accountable, but I have difficulty in equating that with the somewhat restrictive approach that has been taken towards parliamentary questions. I also have difficulty with the fact that when a minister is the subject of a motion of no confidence imposed by Parliament, there is no necessity for that individual to resign.

I found the public participation aspect of the report to be of tremendous interest. Clearly, as Henry McLeish said, this chamber does not have a monopoly on wisdom. Out there, there is a great deal of untapped knowledge and expertise that Parliament would do well to seek and utilise. However, there are dangers in doing that, and when we come to consider our public participation approach, it will be necessary to do so in such a manner as to separate the wheat from the chaff. We must ensure that public participation is consistently positive and that we do not leave ourselves open to cranks and one-issue activists, who would not, to my mind, be the appropriate people to consult.

Other aspects of the report are worthy of more detailed study, but basically it provides us with a sound framework. I hope that as matters evolve we will use the report as a basis, but perhaps no more than a basis, for the form that this Parliament will take.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.42035+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1962E35P56C704477", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Consultative Steering Group", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26614, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 29.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 29.0, "ID": 26614, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mundell, David", "ID": 1962, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Mundell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David Mundell (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 102.0, "ContributionID": 704477, "EditedText": "I, too, welcome the report. I was pleased to play a small part in it in my former job with BT Scotland, by co-ordinating the company's response to the consultation exercise. BT saw it as an important opportunity to contribute to the new Scotland. In appendix A to annexe D of the report, many other companies, professional bodies, trade associations, voluntary sector and local government organisations and individual citizens are listed, who also contributed their views on how the Parliament should operate. There is an unprecedented reservoir of good will, good ideas and determination to create a modern and distinct Parliament and to enhance the democratic process in Scotland. Given the poor turnout in our elections to the Parliament, which is likely to be trumped tomorrow in the European elections, we certainly need that increased participation and involvement. Unfortunately, I cannot share all of Mr McLeish's interpretation of the events of the past few weeks. Unless we make a positive and determined effort to follow through some of the CSG recommendations, many of the aspirations for a new and better form of government in Scotland will not be realised in this term of the Parliament. We have seen already a coterie of publicly financed special advisers; we have seen important announcements made to the media before members were informed; and we have seen a style of debate in which Opposition members were told that their role was to be quiet and listen. Yesterday's proceedings would be described by any objective person as immature and by anyone looking for a new Scotland as deeply depressing. The outcome was an office allowances scheme that would not stand up to any logical scrutiny. If we continue in that fashion, rather than encouraging greater participation, we will put people off. That would be a great pity, given the reservoir of good will, good ideas and good intentions that has been created. Ultimately, it is up to each of us as individual parliamentarians to ensure that the work of the CSG is followed through to action in the Parliament. That places a particular responsibility on non-Executive members of the Labour party and the Liberal Democrats. During the coming weeks and months, they must have a greater courage of their convictions in debates. Abstaining and putting forward ill-conceived compromise motions will not create a new and better form of government in Scotland. If all members play a full role in the activities of this Parliament, and express their own views, we can and will carry out the recommendations of the CSG report as the people of Scotland want us to.", "EditedTextHTML": "I, too, welcome the report. I was pleased to play a small part in it in my former job with BT Scotland, by co-ordinating the company's response to the consultation exercise. BT saw it as an important opportunity to contribute to the new Scotland. In appendix A to annexe D of the report, many other companies, professional bodies, trade associations, voluntary sector and local government organisations and individual citizens are listed, who also contributed their views on how the Parliament should operate. There is an unprecedented reservoir of good will, good ideas and determination to create a modern and distinct Parliament and to enhance the democratic process in Scotland. Given the poor turnout in our elections to the Parliament, which is likely to be trumped tomorrow in the European elections, we certainly need that increased participation and involvement.

Unfortunately, I cannot share all of Mr McLeish's interpretation of the events of the past few weeks. Unless we make a positive and determined effort to follow through some of the CSG recommendations, many of the aspirations for a new and better form of government in Scotland will not be realised in this term of the Parliament. We have seen already a coterie of publicly financed

special advisers; we have seen important announcements made to the media before members were informed; and we have seen a style of debate in which Opposition members were told that their role was to be quiet and listen.

Yesterday's proceedings would be described by any objective person as immature and by anyone looking for a new Scotland as deeply depressing. The outcome was an office allowances scheme that would not stand up to any logical scrutiny. If we continue in that fashion, rather than encouraging greater participation, we will put people off. That would be a great pity, given the reservoir of good will, good ideas and good intentions that has been created.

Ultimately, it is up to each of us as individual parliamentarians to ensure that the work of the CSG is followed through to action in the Parliament. That places a particular responsibility on non-Executive members of the Labour party and the Liberal Democrats. During the coming weeks and months, they must have a greater courage of their convictions in debates. Abstaining and putting forward ill-conceived compromise motions will not create a new and better form of government in Scotland. If all members play a full role in the activities of this Parliament, and express their own views, we can and will carry out the recommendations of the CSG report as the people of Scotland want us to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.42035+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1754E157P235C704479", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Consultative Steering Group", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26614, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 29.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 29.0, "ID": 26614, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Peattie, Cathy", "ID": 1754, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Cathy Peattie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Cathy Peattie (Falkirk East) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 108.0, "ContributionID": 704479, "EditedText": "I welcome the CSG report. I have come from the voluntary sector and I am excited by this morning's debate because it is about finding a new way of doing things. All of us who campaigned for election to the Scottish Parliament continually told people that it would be a different kind of Parliament that would introduce a new politics. Much reference has been made to new politics; perhaps we all need to learn how that new politics will operate. It should be about listening and I hope that we can get away from attacking people all the time. The people in our communities, who are listening to what is happening in Parliament, want to be listened to. They want a voice, but they need to know that someone will listen to that voice. If we ask young people—the people whom Karen Gillon mentioned—about politics, they will say, \"No one is interested, no one is listening and it's not about me.\" We have a responsibility to change that attitude. We must do something about people who feel excluded from the decision-making process and who feel that no one cares how their lives progress. The idea of a civic forum is very exciting. It will give us an opportunity to consider how we can take things forward. The forum could assist the Parliament with consultations, it could explore new ways of doing things and it could bring together a wide range of bodies to examine how power and decision making in the Parliament can be influenced. The forum could conduct a dialogue across the civic sector in Scotland and link with other forums. It is vital that the forum should exist. It would not be a threat to this Parliament; it would be a gateway that would facilitate the Parliament's work. We should examine how the forum will be resourced, how it will be established, and how we can support it. If we are serious about this Parliament being a people's Parliament, we must have links across Scotland. The Parliament should be more than a meeting that takes place in Edinburgh.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the CSG report. I have come from the voluntary

sector and I am excited by this morning's debate because it is about finding a new way of doing things. All of us who campaigned for election to the Scottish Parliament continually told people that it would be a different kind of Parliament that would introduce a new politics. Much reference has been made to new politics; perhaps we all need to learn how that new politics will operate. It should be about listening and I hope that we can get away from attacking people all the time.

The people in our communities, who are listening to what is happening in Parliament, want to be listened to. They want a voice, but they need to know that someone will listen to that voice. If we ask young people—the people whom Karen Gillon mentioned—about politics, they will say, \"No one is interested, no one is listening and it's not about me.\" We have a responsibility to change that attitude. We must do something about people who feel excluded from the decision-making process and who feel that no one cares how their lives progress.

The idea of a civic forum is very exciting. It will give us an opportunity to consider how we can take things forward. The forum could assist the Parliament with consultations, it could explore new ways of doing things and it could bring together a wide range of bodies to examine how power and decision making in the Parliament can be influenced. The forum could conduct a dialogue across the civic sector in Scotland and link with other forums.

It is vital that the forum should exist. It would not be a threat to this Parliament; it would be a gateway that would facilitate the Parliament's work. We should examine how the forum will be resourced, how it will be established, and how we can support it. If we are serious about this Parliament being a people's Parliament, we must have links across Scotland. The Parliament should be more than a meeting that takes place in Edinburgh.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.42035+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C704486", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Consultative Steering Group", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26614, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 29.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 29.0, "ID": 26614, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 124.0, "ContributionID": 704486, "EditedText": "The Minister mentioned the outlying areas. The CSG report refers to the family-friendly hours of the Parliament; I welcome the Wednesday and Thursday meetings, but I note that on Wednesdays we finish at 5.30 pm. Why can the Parliament not go on into the evening? Why can we not make full use of working time on that day? Only nine constituencies fall within the category 1 formula used in yesterday's debate. An extended debate on Wednesday evenings would be of great use to members from outlying areas.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Minister mentioned the outlying areas. The CSG report refers to the family-friendly hours of the Parliament; I welcome the Wednesday and Thursday meetings, but I note that on Wednesdays we finish at 5.30 pm. Why can the Parliament not go on into the evening? Why can we not make full use of working time on that day? Only nine constituencies fall within the category 1 formula used in yesterday's debate. An extended debate on Wednesday evenings would be of great use to members from outlying areas.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1878E208P502C704491", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26615, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 130.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 130.0, "ID": 26615, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Dr Winnie", "ID": 1878, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Winnie Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Winnie Ewing (Highlands and Islands) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 136.0, "ContributionID": 704491, "EditedText": "Just the correct name would do.", "EditedTextHTML": "Just the correct name would do.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C704493", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26615, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 130.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 130.0, "ID": 26615, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 140.0, "ContributionID": 704493, "EditedText": "The motion is before the chamber. Nobody has asked to speak against it. It might be helpful to members if I make a statement from the chair to add to what Mr McCabe said about the Holyrood project. I remind everyone that responsibility for the Holyrood project passed on 1 June from the Executive to the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body. The corporate body, which has five members who were elected by MSPs, has held its first meeting. The corporate body is answerable to members for the project and is responsible for it in law. Members of the corporate body are, in effect, the clients of the project. For that reason, we will discuss the implications of the project with the architect and the project team this afternoon. We have instructed that no further works contracts should be signed in the next 10 days, which is the maximum period for which we can make such an arrangement without penalty. That gives us time to discuss the whole matter further. I am arranging for the full paper that the corporate body has already discussed to be available to all members this afternoon. I also hope to arrange a series of informal seminars—at least two, and possibly three—to allow members to ask the project team questions. The seminars will take place next week, before we debate the matter. They will be chaired by the Deputy Presiding Officers. Details will be announced in the business bulletin. We in the corporate body are conscious of the fact that, although we are responsible for the project, we are answerable to the whole of this Parliament and that the Parliament must give us instructions. I am grateful to the Business Manager for proposing a rearrangement of next week's business to allow the Parliament to take a fundamental decision on the Holyrood project in time, without incurring any penalties on the contract. I hope that what I have said clarifies the position and that it has been helpful to all members. The question is, that motion S1M-44, in the name of Tom McCabe, be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "The motion is before the chamber. Nobody has asked to speak against it.

It might be helpful to members if I make a statement from the chair to add to what Mr McCabe said about the Holyrood project. I remind everyone that responsibility for the Holyrood project passed on 1 June from the Executive to the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body.

The corporate body, which has five members who were elected by MSPs, has held its first meeting. The corporate body is answerable to members for the project and is responsible for it in law. Members of the corporate body are, in effect, the clients of the project. For that reason, we will discuss the implications of the project with the architect and the project team this afternoon. We have instructed that no further works contracts should be signed in the next 10 days, which is the maximum period for which we can make such an arrangement without penalty. That gives us time to discuss the whole matter further.

I am arranging for the full paper that the corporate body has already discussed to be available to all members this afternoon. I also hope to arrange a series of informal seminars—at least two, and possibly three—to allow members to ask the project team questions. The seminars will take place next week, before we debate the matter. They will be chaired by the Deputy Presiding Officers. Details will be announced in the business bulletin.

We in the corporate body are conscious of the fact that, although we are responsible for the project, we are answerable to the whole of this Parliament and that the Parliament must give us instructions.

I am grateful to the Business Manager for proposing a rearrangement of next week's business to allow the Parliament to take a fundamental decision on the Holyrood project in time, without incurring any penalties on the contract.

I hope that what I have said clarifies the position and that it has been helpful to all members.

The question is, that motion S1M-44, in the name of Tom McCabe, be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704494", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26615, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 130.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 130.0, "ID": 26615, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 142.0, "ContributionID": 704494, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704495", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26615, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 130.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 130.0, "ID": 26615, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 143.0, "ContributionID": 704495, "EditedText": "That the Parliament agrees the following business programme:", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament agrees the following business programme:

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704500", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26615, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 130.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 130.0, "ID": 26615, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 148.0, "ContributionID": 704500, "EditedText": "Thursday 17 June 1999", "EditedTextHTML": "Thursday 17 June 1999

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704506", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26615, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 130.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 130.0, "ID": 26615, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 154.0, "ContributionID": 704506, "EditedText": "5.00 pm Decision Time Wednesday 23 June 1999 2.30 pm Statement by the Deputy First Minister followed by No later than 3.00 pm", "EditedTextHTML": "5.00 pm Decision Time Wednesday 23 June 1999 2.30 pm Statement by the Deputy First Minister followed by No later than 3.00 pm

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704515", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26615, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 130.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 130.0, "ID": 26615, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 164.0, "ContributionID": 704515, "EditedText": "Motion moved,", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion moved,

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704520", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26616, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 167.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 167.0, "ID": 26616, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 172.0, "ContributionID": 704520, "EditedText": "That the Parliament records its appreciation of the work of the Consultative Steering Group on the Scottish Parliament; acknowledges the contribution which the Group's Reports have made to the development of the procedures of the Parliament; and agrees that its operations should embody the spirit of the CSG key principles.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament records its appreciation of the work of the Consultative Steering Group on the Scottish Parliament; acknowledges the contribution which the Group's Reports have made to the development of the procedures of the Parliament; and agrees that its operations should embody the spirit of the CSG key principles.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704434", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Wednesday 9 June 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26612, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26612, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 2.0, "ContributionID": 704434, "EditedText": "THE DEPUTY PRESIDING OFFICER opened the meeting at 10:30", "EditedTextHTML": "[THE DEPUTY PRESIDING OFFICER opened the meeting at 10:30]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.42035+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C704435", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Wednesday 9 June 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26612, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26612, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ms Patricia Ferguson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 3.0, "ContributionID": 704435, "EditedText": "Good morning. Before we begin, members should check that their ID cards have been correctly placed in the microphone system. They can do so by looking at the red light immediately below the card and above the small arrow. If the card has been placed correctly, the light should be off. The first item of business is a statement by the First Minister on legislation in the UK Parliament relating to devolved matters. The First Minister will take questions at the end of his statement and there should therefore be no interventions. The statement will be followed, no later than 11 am, by a debate on the consultative steering group report and the draft information strategy.", "EditedTextHTML": "Good morning. Before we begin, members should check that their ID cards have been correctly placed in the microphone system. They can do so by looking at the red light immediately below the card and above the small arrow. If the card has been placed correctly, the light should be off.

The first item of business is a statement by the First Minister on legislation in the UK Parliament relating to devolved matters. The First Minister will take questions at the end of his statement and there should therefore be no interventions. The statement will be followed, no later than 11 am, by a debate on the consultative steering group report and the draft information strategy.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.42035+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C704438", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "UK Parliament Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26613, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26613, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 11.0, "ContributionID": 704438, "EditedText": "I am grateful for the first few sentences of Alasdair Morgan's remarks. It is sensible that we should deal with the transitional provisions pragmatically. That is what I am recommending to the Parliament. Mr Morgan refers to the Immigration and Asylum Bill, which is before the United Kingdom Parliament. It deals almost entirely with reserved matters, and as such will continue its passage through the House of Commons and presumably through the House of Lords. What its fate will be is a matter for those two chambers and the parliamentary process. I am setting out the system that will operate in the future; what we do now is not necessarily a precedent. United Kingdom legislation that deals with both a devolved and a reserved area of responsibility will go through the Westminster system only if this chamber agrees to it. That is an important safeguard. On occasion, there may be disagreements in this Parliament about whether it is right to give such agreement, but that is entirely a matter for this chamber. If it does not consent, business at Westminster will have to be adapted to take account of that. Mr Morgan seems to be asking me to say that, as a matter of principle, we will on no occasion allow a Westminster bill to go through, even though it is evident to all of us that it is sensible that its provisions should apply on either a GB- wide or a UK-wide basis. That would build inflexibility into our system. It would be counterproductive, and I would not agree with it. Mr Morgan refers to an inertia factor that would prevent us from altering a provision that had come through the Westminster machinery even though there may be a wish to use a power in a devolved area. That is a criticism of this Parliament. The powers exist, if the Parliament wants to use them, and it is for those who are arguing for change to overcome any inertia. I hope that the SNP will not take this as too much of a compliment, but the word inertia is not one that I would apply to it. I do not know whether SNP members will win the argument, but they are certainly entitled to put their point of view.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful for the first few sentences of Alasdair Morgan's remarks. It is sensible that we should deal with the transitional provisions pragmatically. That is what I am recommending to the Parliament.

Mr Morgan refers to the Immigration and Asylum Bill, which is before the United Kingdom Parliament. It deals almost entirely with reserved matters, and as such will continue its passage through the House of Commons and presumably through the House of Lords. What its fate will be is a matter for those two chambers and the parliamentary process.

I am setting out the system that will operate in the future; what we do now is not necessarily a precedent. United Kingdom legislation that deals with both a devolved and a reserved area of responsibility will go through the Westminster system only if this chamber agrees to it. That is an important safeguard. On occasion, there may be disagreements in this Parliament about whether it is right to give such agreement, but that is entirely a matter for this chamber. If it does not consent, business at Westminster will have to be adapted to take account of that.

Mr Morgan seems to be asking me to say that, as a matter of principle, we will on no occasion allow a Westminster bill to go through, even though it is evident to all of us that it is sensible that its provisions should apply on either a GB- wide or a UK-wide basis. That would build inflexibility into our system. It would be counterproductive, and I would not agree with it.

Mr Morgan refers to an inertia factor that would prevent us from altering a provision that had come through the Westminster machinery even though there may be a wish to use a power in a devolved area. That is a criticism of this Parliament. The powers exist, if the Parliament wants to use them, and it is for those who are arguing for change to overcome any inertia. I hope that the SNP will not take this as too much of a compliment, but the word inertia is not one that I would apply to it. I do not know whether SNP members will win the argument, but they are certainly entitled to put their point of view.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.42035+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C704440", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "UK Parliament Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26613, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26613, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 15.0, "ContributionID": 704440, "EditedText": "I am grateful for the support in principle that I received from David McLetchie, but he rather spoiled it with his subsequent remarks. I am grateful, too, for David McLetchie's remarks about the handling of the food standards agency. I understand that there is considerable controversy about the funding levy and its mechanics. I said that I did not want to be drawn into specifics and I will hold to that, because I hope that, before we rise, there will be an opportunity to discuss the levy during a debate on the food standards bill. The matter of the levy may well be revisited, but although it is easy to say that there ought to be a graduated levy, practical problems would arise over its definition. I will be interested to hear the Conservative party's solution to those problems when the time comes. I proposed that the current bills to which I referred, particularly the Health Bill, should be allowed to continue their progress as a matter of convenience; otherwise, we will have to halt everything and start again. The bill can be inspected when it reaches the statute book; if something is thought to be so controversial that it is worth changing, this Parliament can take steps. I do not believe that that will be the view of this Parliament, but that is a matter for debate. I do not intend to have a debate on the issue, but if David McLetchie believes that there should be one, he should argue his case with the Parliamentary Bureau.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful for the support in principle that I received from David McLetchie, but he rather spoiled it with his subsequent remarks.

I am grateful, too, for David McLetchie's remarks about the handling of the food standards agency. I understand that there is considerable controversy about the funding levy and its mechanics. I said that I did not want to be drawn into specifics and I will hold to that, because I hope that, before we rise, there will be an opportunity to discuss the levy during a debate on the food standards bill. The matter of the levy may well be revisited, but although it is easy to say that there ought to be a graduated levy, practical problems would arise over its definition. I will be interested to hear the Conservative party's solution to those problems when the time comes.

I proposed that the current bills to which I referred, particularly the Health Bill, should be allowed to continue their progress as a matter of convenience; otherwise, we will have to halt everything and start again. The bill can be inspected when it reaches the statute book; if something is thought to be so controversial that it is worth changing, this Parliament can take steps. I do not believe that that will be the view of this Parliament, but that is a matter for debate. I do not intend to have a debate on the issue, but if David McLetchie believes that there should be one, he should argue his case with the Parliamentary Bureau.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.42035+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C704445", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "UK Parliament Legislation", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26613, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26613, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan (Glasgow) (SSP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 25.0, "ContributionID": 704445, "EditedText": "On the Access to Justice Bill, will the First Minister make a statement about the Scottish Criminal Cases Review Commission? I am unhappy about a number of the restrictions that have been imposed in relation to legal aid, as they represent an infringement of civil liberties and justice, but I am glad that the bill will remove the merits test for granting legal aid in cases that the commission refers to the appeal court. I have a specific interest in some of the dozen or so cases that are currently before the Scottish Criminal Cases Review Commission, including that of Thomas Campbell and Joseph Steele, and that of Stuart Gair. The First Minister will be aware that the commission can recommend that a case be returned to the appeal court, but that the Scottish Office has been able to refuse such a recommendation. Will he state whether such recommendations will be accepted without political interference?", "EditedTextHTML": "On the Access to Justice Bill, will the First Minister make a statement about the Scottish Criminal Cases Review Commission? I am unhappy about a number of the restrictions that have been imposed in relation to legal aid, as they represent an infringement of civil liberties and justice, but I am glad that the bill will remove the merits test for granting legal aid in cases that the commission refers to the appeal court.

I have a specific interest in some of the dozen or so cases that are currently before the Scottish Criminal Cases Review Commission, including that of Thomas Campbell and Joseph Steele, and that of Stuart Gair. The First Minister will be aware that the commission can recommend that a case be returned to the appeal court, but that the Scottish Office has been able to refuse such a recommendation. Will he state whether such recommendations will be accepted without political interference?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.42035+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C704450", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Consultative Steering Group", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26614, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 29.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 29.0, "ID": 26614, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 37.0, "ContributionID": 704450, "EditedText": "That all ministers, including the First Minister, should be fully accountable to the Parliament is in the spirit of the CSG recommendations and concurs with Alex Salmond's comments. I hope that that will be the case in question time, which will run from next week. The important point is that we have suggested the initial set-up. I hope that we will review that in co-operation with other parties, because no one wants to run away from their responsibilities. Alex Salmond is absolutely right: a place in the new Scottish Executive carries enormous responsibilities. I hope that all members will be able to question not only the First Minister, but all members of the Executive. The third principle at the root of the CSG's recommendations is that the Parliament should be open, accessible and participative. Looking around the chamber, it is encouraging to see that people are looking in on what we are doing. Again, we are marching forward from what happens at Westminster. That is a serious indication about our ability to be open, accessible, and, as the debate unfolds, to have the maximum number of people participating in the policy and work of the Parliament. The fourth principle is that, in its operation, the Parliament should embrace equal opportunities for all. I take very seriously the point made by Alex Salmond yesterday; people from ethnic minority backgrounds participated in the election campaign, but none was successful in becoming an MSP. Obviously, we must examine that carefully, because there is no point in embracing the idea of an inclusive Scottish Parliament if people from every walk of life and every ethnic background cannot participate in the work that we are doing. Ideas such as that of Alex Salmond should be given serious consideration in the work of the committees and the Parliament. Reflecting on the last four weeks and on the spirit of the CSG, it is clear that there have been some tough times, some tensions and some ill- tempered debate. We should all look back, briefly, on the 100 years since the campaign for the Scottish Parliament began. Over the short space of four weeks, that campaign is fast becoming a reality; every MSP should take some credit for that. In terms of the quality and tone of the debates, we have a long way to go. However, as we establish ourselves, we should consider how much we have achieved over the past few weeks, even if, at times, that is not always obvious.I do not think that I am being over-optimistic when I say that all the principles that I have detailed this morning are acceptable to every member. They are fine principles and the CSG has managed to transform them into sensible recommendations for our working practices. They are the foundation of many of the ideas for Scottish parliamentary practice, which have so captured the imagination of the wider public. Again, I refer to some of the opinion polls that have been taken. When taking over such a huge responsibility, we are all slightly apprehensive. Although there is a long way to go, it seems that initial indications from members of the public suggest that they like what they see. Once more, that should spur us to continue to march forward with the new politics. How do the CSG recommendations fit into the wider context of our work? First, the main thrust of the group's recommendations was turned into transitional standing orders—under which we are currently operating—that answer a concrete concern shared by us all. Secondly, other CSG recommendations related to the practical aspects of implementing the parliamentary project, such as the establishment of the education centre, and those are currently being developed by the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body. We have the standing orders, the practical ideas that are being developed and, of course, there are other detailed recommendations from the expert panels that advised the CSG, which will be taken forward separately in the coming months. An example of that is the regulation of members' interests; the CSG recommendation is reflected in an interim transitional order, which will apply until the Parliament considers how it wants to regulate the conduct of members in the long term. That important matter will be debated in the near future. Over the past few years, there has been a wide- ranging debate about how members conduct themselves in—and outside—Parliament. We want to be an exemplary Parliament, and to show the rest of the world that we have the highest degrees of probity and standards. This chamber will consider that matter, although, at present, we are working to transitional orders that were set down by Westminster as part of the transition process. Similarly, the recommendations of the financial issues advisory group will be discussed in detail when the Parliament considers the financial procedures that it wishes to adopt. An excellent aspect of the consultative steering group's work was that it ensured that this Parliament could take decisions. There have clearly been some frustrations that decisions have been taken by the UK Government in Westminster prior to the establishment of this Parliament. However, the 129 members of this Parliament will revisit all those decisions and it should reassure everyone that we will decide what procedures we will operate within. The aspirational aspect of the consultative steering group's work—its commitment to the four key principles—is the subject of today's debate. By voicing our active endorsement of the consultative steering group and of the motion, we will voice the Parliament's support for the ideas that underpin the practical details of daily business. I mentioned that the extensive consultation process was one of the most reassuring elements of the work of the consultative steering group, as it indicated that our deliberations were very much in line with the aspirations of Scottish society. The process took many forms, including a written consultation exercise, a series of open forum meetings and workshops aimed at eliciting the views of groups, such as young people and those who live in urban, deprived and remote areas, which traditionally perceived themselves as being marginalised from the decision-making process. To add to Alex Salmond's point, I cannot overemphasise that, while we have listened through the consultative steering group, if this is to be a Parliament for all of Scotland it is imperative that every one of the 129 members continues to take the idea of consultation on board. If we can recognise that all of the wisdom of Scotland does not preside in this chamber alone, that will be a massive and important change in our culture. When colleagues note the consultative steering group's recommendations, they are noting the recommendations of the people of Scotland for an open, modern and dignified Parliament. In my view, the three elements of Scotland moving forward together steals a march on Westminster, and, as we are building on modern European Parliaments, it also gives Scotland a great chance to do things differently as we enter the new millennium. I used the word dignified, which relates not only to the ceremonial aspects of the Parliament, but to the atmosphere in which we conduct our business. Even in the early weeks of the Parliament, the quality of debate and of the exchanges between MSPs has been different—I stress the word different. At times, the debate has been good; at other times, it has been patchy. However, this is our Parliament, this is our way of doing things, and I have no doubt that we should take collective credit for some of the changes. For example, by electing the Presiding Officer and the First Minister, we have put those posts before the Scottish Parliament, whereas, in Westminster, the Cabinet does not go before the Parliament. Such examples are small but important indications that this Parliament is very different, and reflect both what the people of Scotland want and the relationship between the Parliament and the Executive. We have a set of standing orders, and, although there have been some hiccups, they can be ironed out. That reflects the work of the consultative steering group, which anticipated what we would want to do and how we would want to do it. Canon Kenyon Wright said that the Scottish Parliament should be viewed as a relationship rather than as an institution. I am plagiarising what he said, but it is a good metaphor, as we should always remember that we are linked to others, and that it matters to people when we take decisions. Although people may criticise the Parliament and its budget of £16 billion, one of the important aspects of devolution is that we have extensive legislative powers and a huge responsibility. Once the new Scottish Parliament passes an act, it will have a formidable impact on every one of the 5 million people in Scotland and on every part of Scotland. One area of concern for the consultative steering group was the creation of a family-friendly environment, keeping family-friendly hours. I hope that that environment will apply to work not only in the Parliament but in civic Scotland and in our constituencies. Another element of the Parliament, which was endorsed yesterday, are the massive powers that we will rightly give to committees. They mean that no one need complain that an Executive is simply taking decisions on behalf of Scotland; each of the 129 MSPs will have a significant role in the committee structure. That also was one of the objectives that the CSG set out. I believe that the spirit of the CSG was one of consensus and consultation although, as I said earlier, it does not often seem as if those two qualities are found in abundance. Nevertheless, the demonstration of those qualities is an objective that we must set ourselves. I want to finish on the issue of civic participation in our work. I know that young people are concerned about establishing a youth parliament and that other people want a civic forum to be established. The Executive, and I hope this Parliament, will warmly endorse both ideas. Over the next few months, we need to think about how we can interface with such organisations, how we can help them to get established and how we can give them concrete support. That will take the process of consultation and consensus further and will send a very firm message to the people of Scotland that we want civic Scotland to be involved in our work. The CSG also identified that objective, and I hope that the Parliament will warmly embrace it. With those brief remarks, I will open up this debate on the CSG report to the chamber. I hope that, when we review the position in perhaps a year's time, we will have been able to bed down some of the main recommendations of the report. I also hope that we will have proved to the people of Scotland that this Parliament was worth the 100year campaign and that they should start to ensure that the Parliament works for them. I move,That the Parliament records its appreciation of the work of the Consultative Steering Group on the Scottish Parliament; acknowledges the contribution which the Group's Reports have made to the development of the procedures of the Parliament; and agrees that its operations should embody the spirit of the CSG key principles.", "EditedTextHTML": "That all ministers, including the First Minister, should be fully accountable to the Parliament is in the spirit of the CSG recommendations and concurs with Alex Salmond's comments. I hope that that will be the case in question time, which will run from next week. The important point is that we have suggested the initial set-up. I hope that we will review that in co-operation with other parties, because no one wants to run away from their responsibilities. Alex Salmond is absolutely right: a place in the new Scottish Executive carries enormous responsibilities. I hope that all members will be able to question not only the First Minister, but all members of the Executive.

The third principle at the root of the CSG's recommendations is that the Parliament should be open, accessible and participative. Looking around the chamber, it is encouraging to see that people are looking in on what we are doing. Again, we are marching forward from what happens at Westminster. That is a serious indication about our ability to be open, accessible, and, as the debate unfolds, to have the maximum number of people participating in the policy and work of the Parliament.

The fourth principle is that, in its operation, the Parliament should embrace equal opportunities for all. I take very seriously the point made by Alex Salmond yesterday; people from ethnic minority backgrounds participated in the election campaign, but none was successful in becoming an MSP. Obviously, we must examine that carefully, because there is no point in embracing the idea of an inclusive Scottish Parliament if people from every walk of life and every ethnic background cannot participate in the work that we are doing. Ideas such as that of Alex Salmond should be given serious consideration in the work of the committees and the Parliament.

Reflecting on the last four weeks and on the spirit of the CSG, it is clear that there have been some tough times, some tensions and some ill- tempered debate. We should all look back, briefly, on the 100 years since the campaign for the Scottish Parliament began. Over the short space of four weeks, that campaign is fast becoming a reality; every MSP should take some credit for that. In terms of the quality and tone of the debates, we have a long way to go. However, as we establish ourselves, we should consider how much we have achieved over the past few weeks,

even if, at times, that is not always obvious.

I do not think that I am being over-optimistic when I say that all the principles that I have detailed this morning are acceptable to every member. They are fine principles and the CSG has managed to transform them into sensible recommendations for our working practices. They are the foundation of many of the ideas for Scottish parliamentary practice, which have so captured the imagination of the wider public. Again, I refer to some of the opinion polls that have been taken. When taking over such a huge responsibility, we are all slightly apprehensive. Although there is a long way to go, it seems that initial indications from members of the public suggest that they like what they see. Once more, that should spur us to continue to march forward with the new politics.

How do the CSG recommendations fit into the wider context of our work? First, the main thrust of the group's recommendations was turned into transitional standing orders—under which we are currently operating—that answer a concrete concern shared by us all. Secondly, other CSG recommendations related to the practical aspects of implementing the parliamentary project, such as the establishment of the education centre, and those are currently being developed by the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body.

We have the standing orders, the practical ideas that are being developed and, of course, there are other detailed recommendations from the expert panels that advised the CSG, which will be taken forward separately in the coming months. An example of that is the regulation of members' interests; the CSG recommendation is reflected in an interim transitional order, which will apply until the Parliament considers how it wants to regulate the conduct of members in the long term. That important matter will be debated in the near future.

Over the past few years, there has been a wide- ranging debate about how members conduct themselves in—and outside—Parliament. We want to be an exemplary Parliament, and to show the rest of the world that we have the highest degrees of probity and standards. This chamber will consider that matter, although, at present, we are working to transitional orders that were set down by Westminster as part of the transition process.

Similarly, the recommendations of the financial issues advisory group will be discussed in detail when the Parliament considers the financial procedures that it wishes to adopt. An excellent aspect of the consultative steering group's work was that it ensured that this Parliament could take decisions. There have clearly been some frustrations that decisions have been taken by the UK Government in Westminster prior to the establishment of this Parliament. However, the 129 members of this Parliament will revisit all those decisions and it should reassure everyone that we will decide what procedures we will operate within.

The aspirational aspect of the consultative steering group's work—its commitment to the four key principles—is the subject of today's debate. By voicing our active endorsement of the consultative steering group and of the motion, we will voice the Parliament's support for the ideas that underpin the practical details of daily business.

I mentioned that the extensive consultation process was one of the most reassuring elements of the work of the consultative steering group, as it indicated that our deliberations were very much in line with the aspirations of Scottish society. The process took many forms, including a written consultation exercise, a series of open forum meetings and workshops aimed at eliciting the views of groups, such as young people and those who live in urban, deprived and remote areas, which traditionally perceived themselves as being marginalised from the decision-making process. To add to Alex Salmond's point, I cannot overemphasise that, while we have listened through the consultative steering group, if this is to be a Parliament for all of Scotland it is imperative that every one of the 129 members continues to take the idea of consultation on board. If we can recognise that all of the wisdom of Scotland does not preside in this chamber alone, that will be a massive and important change in our culture.

When colleagues note the consultative steering group's recommendations, they are noting the recommendations of the people of Scotland for an open, modern and dignified Parliament. In my view, the three elements of Scotland moving forward together steals a march on Westminster, and, as we are building on modern European Parliaments, it also gives Scotland a great chance to do things differently as we enter the new millennium.

I used the word dignified, which relates not only to the ceremonial aspects of the Parliament, but to the atmosphere in which we conduct our business. Even in the early weeks of the Parliament, the quality of debate and of the exchanges between MSPs has been different—I stress the word different. At times, the debate has been good; at other times, it has been patchy. However, this is our Parliament, this is our way of doing things, and I have no doubt that we should take collective credit for some of the changes. For example, by electing the Presiding Officer and the First Minister, we have put those posts before the Scottish Parliament, whereas, in Westminster, the Cabinet does not go before the Parliament. Such

examples are small but important indications that this Parliament is very different, and reflect both what the people of Scotland want and the relationship between the Parliament and the Executive.

We have a set of standing orders, and, although there have been some hiccups, they can be ironed out. That reflects the work of the consultative steering group, which anticipated what we would want to do and how we would want to do it. Canon Kenyon Wright said that the Scottish Parliament should be viewed as a relationship rather than as an institution. I am plagiarising what he said, but it is a good metaphor, as we should always remember that we are linked to others, and that it matters to people when we take decisions. Although people may criticise the Parliament and its budget of £16 billion, one of the important aspects of devolution is that we have extensive legislative powers and a huge responsibility. Once the new Scottish Parliament passes an act, it will have a formidable impact on every one of the 5 million people in Scotland and on every part of Scotland.

One area of concern for the consultative steering group was the creation of a family-friendly environment, keeping family-friendly hours. I hope that that environment will apply to work not only in the Parliament but in civic Scotland and in our constituencies.

Another element of the Parliament, which was endorsed yesterday, are the massive powers that we will rightly give to committees. They mean that no one need complain that an Executive is simply taking decisions on behalf of Scotland; each of the 129 MSPs will have a significant role in the committee structure. That also was one of the objectives that the CSG set out.

I believe that the spirit of the CSG was one of consensus and consultation although, as I said earlier, it does not often seem as if those two qualities are found in abundance. Nevertheless, the demonstration of those qualities is an objective that we must set ourselves.

I want to finish on the issue of civic participation in our work. I know that young people are concerned about establishing a youth parliament and that other people want a civic forum to be established. The Executive, and I hope this Parliament, will warmly endorse both ideas. Over the next few months, we need to think about how we can interface with such organisations, how we can help them to get established and how we can give them concrete support. That will take the process of consultation and consensus further and will send a very firm message to the people of Scotland that we want civic Scotland to be involved in our work. The CSG also identified that objective, and I hope that the Parliament will warmly embrace it.

With those brief remarks, I will open up this debate on the CSG report to the chamber. I hope that, when we review the position in perhaps a year's time, we will have been able to bed down some of the main recommendations of the report. I also hope that we will have proved to the people of Scotland that this Parliament was worth the 100year campaign and that they should start to ensure that the Parliament works for them.

I move,

That the Parliament records its appreciation of the work of the Consultative Steering Group on the Scottish Parliament; acknowledges the contribution which the Group's Reports have made to the development of the procedures of the Parliament; and agrees that its operations should embody the spirit of the CSG key principles.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.42035+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C704452", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Consultative Steering Group", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26614, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 29.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 29.0, "ID": 26614, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie (Lothians) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 43.0, "ContributionID": 704452, "EditedText": "My party is happy to endorse many of the proposals in the CSG report, which has been presented and forms the basis of today's motion. We think that it will form an excellent basis for the working of the Parliament. I pay tribute to all those who were involved in its production and in particular to Mr McLeish, who took on the onerous task of chairing the group's many meetings and steered it to a successful conclusion. Although I do not appear in the title credits, I had the opportunity to come off the substitutes bench one day to deputise for Paul Cullen, our representative on the CSG, at one meeting of the CSG. I was warmly welcomed and enjoyed the discussions. This debate provides a timely opportunity to consider the way in which the Parliament has operated so far. If we are being honest, it has not lived up to its billing. We heard so much about the much-vaunted new politics in the run-up to the Scottish elections that the phrase had become a cliché even before the Parliament started. That pales into insignificance when we compare it with the number of times that the phrase has been invoked in the chamber. It has become the motherhood and apple pie of Scottish politics. Although I may be struck down for saying so, new politics has been a complete sham. So far, there has been a deal cooked up behind the backs of the voters that betrayed Scottish students on tuition fees, sold out our farmers over beef on the bone and sold our fishermen doon the watters on the Scottish fisheries issue. There has been a huge growth in the size of government in Scotland, with 22 ministers, 12 special advisers and a whole retinue costing the Scottish taxpayer some £5 million. There have been disgraceful attempts by the coalition to suppress opposition to their cosy deal, whether it be on Short money or on members' allowances, which we discussed yesterday. In the spirit of consensus politics, I have come up with a solution to the parity problem, which so engaged us yesterday. It is really rather simple: Labour and Liberal Democrat members will take their office allowances in euros; SNP and Conservative members will take theirs in pounds sterling; and we can rest assured that market forces will achieve parity in very short order. Some people in this Parliament do not like plain speaking. However, I prefer to deal in the truth; and, as we all know, the truth sometimes hurts. The truth, however blunt, is infinitely preferable to euphemisms such as consensus, co-operation and new politics. Some people use those words as a mask for blatant political opportunism, as we have heard on too many occasions in the three weeks or so that this Parliament has been in operation. I do not call that new politics; I call it dishonest politics. We in the Scottish Conservative party will have nothing to do with it. We must be wary of the phrase consensus politics and of elevating the whole concept of consensus, because it can be a false god. Consensus politics, if it means the politics of the lowest common denominator, is no way to take any country or nation forward. It results in the consensus of inertia and it results in paralysis by analysis. It is worth reflecting that 350,000 council houses in Scotland would not have been sold with consensus politics—", "EditedTextHTML": "My party is happy to endorse many of the proposals in the CSG report, which has been presented and forms the basis of today's motion. We think that it will form an excellent basis for the working of the Parliament. I pay tribute to all those who were involved in its production and in particular to Mr McLeish, who took on the onerous task of chairing the group's many meetings and steered it to a successful conclusion. Although I do not appear in the title credits, I had the opportunity to come off the substitutes bench one day to deputise for Paul Cullen, our representative on the CSG, at one meeting of the CSG. I was warmly welcomed and enjoyed the discussions.

This debate provides a timely opportunity to consider the way in which the Parliament has operated so far. If we are being honest, it has not lived up to its billing. We heard so much about the much-vaunted new politics in the run-up to the Scottish elections that the phrase had become a cliché even before the Parliament started. That pales into insignificance when we compare it with the number of times that the phrase has been invoked in the chamber. It has become the motherhood and apple pie of Scottish politics.

Although I may be struck down for saying so, new politics has been a complete sham. So far, there has been a deal cooked up behind the backs of the voters that betrayed Scottish students on tuition fees, sold out our farmers over beef on the bone and sold our fishermen doon the watters on the Scottish fisheries issue. There has been a huge growth in the size of government in Scotland, with 22 ministers, 12 special advisers and a whole retinue costing the Scottish taxpayer some £5 million. There have been disgraceful attempts by the coalition to suppress opposition to their cosy deal, whether it be on Short money or on members' allowances, which we discussed yesterday.

In the spirit of consensus politics, I have come up with a solution to the parity problem, which so engaged us yesterday. It is really rather simple: Labour and Liberal Democrat members will take their office allowances in euros; SNP and Conservative members will take theirs in pounds sterling; and we can rest assured that market forces will achieve parity in very short order.

Some people in this Parliament do not like plain speaking. However, I prefer to deal in the truth; and, as we all know, the truth sometimes hurts. The truth, however blunt, is infinitely preferable to euphemisms such as consensus, co-operation and new politics. Some people use those words as a mask for blatant political opportunism, as we have heard on too many occasions in the three weeks or so that this Parliament has been in

operation. I do not call that new politics; I call it dishonest politics. We in the Scottish Conservative party will have nothing to do with it.

We must be wary of the phrase consensus politics and of elevating the whole concept of consensus, because it can be a false god. Consensus politics, if it means the politics of the lowest common denominator, is no way to take any country or nation forward. It results in the consensus of inertia and it results in paralysis by analysis. It is worth reflecting that 350,000 council houses in Scotland would not have been sold with consensus politics—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.42035+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C704453", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Consultative Steering Group", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26614, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 29.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 29.0, "ID": 26614, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan (Glasgow) (SSP) rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 45.0, "ContributionID": 704453, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.42035+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C704455", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Consultative Steering Group", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26614, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 29.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 29.0, "ID": 26614, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 49.0, "ContributionID": 704455, "EditedText": "Mr McLetchie has given us a presentation that referred to honesty. He then referred to council housing. I hope, therefore, that he will join me in hoping that the courts in England will not, in dealing with his former friend Mr Aitken, be so forgiving as they were to his former friend Mr Saunders, who, after being given a five-year sentence, served only 18 months. Mr Aitken offered a defence that was remarkable in connection with council housing. He said that he suffered from severe chronic asthma and therefore should not be sent down. If that defence were accepted by the district courts in Glasgow, they would have a hell of a lot of defences offered by people living in poor, damp council houses and therefore suffering from asthma. Will he join me in hoping that the justice system in England will hold on to Mr Aitken for as long as possible to prevent him using such spurious defences in future?", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr McLetchie has given us a presentation that referred to honesty. He then referred to council housing. I hope, therefore, that he will join me in hoping that the courts in England will not, in dealing with his former friend Mr Aitken, be so forgiving as they were to his former friend Mr Saunders, who, after being given a five-year sentence, served only 18 months. Mr Aitken offered a defence that was remarkable in connection with council housing. He said that he suffered from severe chronic asthma and therefore should not be sent down. If that defence were accepted by the district courts in Glasgow, they would have a hell of a lot of defences offered by people living in poor, damp council houses and therefore suffering from asthma. Will he join me in hoping that the justice system in England will hold on to Mr Aitken for as long as possible to prevent him using such spurious defences in future?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.42035+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C704457", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Consultative Steering Group", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26614, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 29.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 29.0, "ID": 26614, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 53.0, "ContributionID": 704457, "EditedText": "That was an interesting interjection by Mr Sheridan. Mr Aitken has been dealt with by the courts and no doubt he will serve his sentence. I would reflect that, had Glasgow council made better use of the receipts from the sale of council houses, and had it reinvested the money in its housing stock, many of the people that Mr Sheridan represents would not be suffering from the problems of poor housing to which his question drew attention. If we had had consensus politics, successful major Scottish companies such as Scottish Power, British Energy and Scottish Hydro-Electric would still be languishing in the nationalised backwaters where they were some 10 years ago. There are limitations to consensus. The Opposition parties in this chamber must be wary that consensus politics, by and large, suits the Government of the day. Real, democratic politics is about presenting choices to the voters at elections. We must avoid the situation in which, by worshipping the false god of consensus, we deny the people the opportunity now and in future elections to make real choices about their vision of Scottish society and about the sort of policies that they want pursued by the Scottish Administration. I would also like to sound a word of caution about the implications that consensus politics have for the taxpayer. Worshipping the god of consensus inevitably leads to a tendency to duck real and difficult issues about the division of the spending cake. Instead, everyone comes together in a consensus and says that the solution is to bake a bigger cake. The ingredients of that cake would be higher spending, higher borrowing, higher taxes or higher inflation.", "EditedTextHTML": "That was an interesting interjection by Mr Sheridan. Mr Aitken has been dealt with by the courts and no doubt he will serve his sentence. I would reflect that, had Glasgow council made better use of the receipts from the sale of council houses, and had it reinvested the money in its housing stock, many of the people that Mr Sheridan represents would not be suffering from the problems of poor housing to which his question drew attention.

If we had had consensus politics, successful major Scottish companies such as Scottish Power, British Energy and Scottish Hydro-Electric would still be languishing in the nationalised backwaters where they were some 10 years ago. There are limitations to consensus. The Opposition parties in this chamber must be wary that consensus politics, by and large, suits the Government of the day. Real, democratic politics is about presenting choices to the voters at elections. We must avoid the situation in which, by worshipping the false god of consensus, we deny the people the opportunity now and in future elections to make real choices about their vision of Scottish society and about the sort of policies that they want pursued by the Scottish Administration.

I would also like to sound a word of caution about the implications that consensus politics have for the taxpayer. Worshipping the god of consensus inevitably leads to a tendency to duck real and difficult issues about the division of the spending cake. Instead, everyone comes together in a consensus and says that the solution is to bake a bigger cake. The ingredients of that cake would be higher spending, higher borrowing, higher taxes or higher inflation.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.42035+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C704459", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Consultative Steering Group", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26614, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 29.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 29.0, "ID": 26614, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 57.0, "ContributionID": 704459, "EditedText": "That is absolutely true, but Mr Salmond was obviously not paying attention to my introductory remarks. We must be careful not to get so involved in this particular love affair with consensus that we let the Administration off the hook and allow people sanctimoniously to invoke the CSG and the phrase new politics, and all the wrapping that goes with those, to justify their own ends. I am sure that Mr Salmond will not be deceived by this any more than I will be in the years ahead in this chamber.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is absolutely true, but Mr Salmond was obviously not paying attention to my introductory remarks. We must be careful not to get so involved in this particular love affair with consensus that we let the Administration off the hook and allow people sanctimoniously to invoke the CSG and the phrase new politics, and all the wrapping that goes with those, to justify their own ends. I am sure that Mr Salmond will not be deceived by this any more than I will be in the years ahead in this chamber.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.42035+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2068E171P304C704465", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Consultative Steering Group", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26614, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 29.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 29.0, "ID": 26614, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stone, Jamie", "ID": 2068, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie Stone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 70.0, "ContributionID": 704465, "EditedText": "I should like to be more positive, if I can, after Mr McLetchie's remarks. Let us be honest about this: the CSG report is the product of a lot of hard work, and we should welcome what is in it. I want to touch on a particular issue that is dear to my heart— involvement of our young people. I refer members to page 103 of the report, which speaks of \"the establishment of a parallel ‘Youth Parliament' for young people\". For some time I have been a member of the steering committee of the Highland youth parliament—one of two that were set up in Scotland as part of a European initiative. It is funded by Highland Health Board assisted by Highland Council. It has been an enormous success involving fifth-year and sixth-year pupils from our secondary schools in the Highlands. They have debated a variety of issues, particularly drugs. The feeling of those young people and of all of us on the steering committee was that the parliament was very inclusive. We have used that word several times in the chamber today. The young people felt that they had a role and that their views were being taken on board. I contrast that with my experience at the recent election. If it does not exist already, there is a threat of there being increasing disillusionment with the political process among young people in Scotland. To take forward the remarks made by Mr McLeish, who has now left, and by George Reid, it is important to reverse that trend. Our democracy is precious—people fought and died for it and the young must be included in it. I welcome the comments made on page 103 of the CSG report, but we must be wary of right-on, politically correct ways of approaching such measures. I recommend that ministers consider a slightly more regionalised and more local model for a youth parliament. I also refer ministers back to page 96 of the report, which states: \"For example, North Lanarkshire Council considered that a partnership approach between the new Parliament and the local authorities would have the advantage of allowing for local government to be used as a means of collecting public opinion.\" I strongly suggest to Mr Wallace and Mr McLeish that they consider sending a message to encourage or even compel Scottish local authorities to establish a system of youth parliaments the length and breadth of Scotland. Such a system need not cost a great deal. The appropriate health boards could join in, as well as any other bodies that were identified in due course. Ministers would then hear the opinions of young people, who, let us face it, often know rather more than their fathers—my children often correct me on many things. The local authority interface would be one way of spreading the word and bringing opinions back to the Parliament. I am deadly serious about that suggestion. I have been going on about it for some time, and I hope that members from all parties will support it.", "EditedTextHTML": "I should like to be more positive, if I can, after Mr McLetchie's remarks. Let us be honest about this: the CSG report is the product of a lot of hard work, and we should welcome what is in it. I want to touch on a particular issue that is dear to my heart— involvement of our young people. I refer members to page 103 of the report, which speaks of

\"the establishment of a parallel ‘Youth Parliament' for young people\".

For some time I have been a member of the steering committee of the Highland youth parliament—one of two that were set up in Scotland as part of a European initiative. It is funded by Highland Health Board assisted by Highland Council. It has been an enormous success involving fifth-year and sixth-year pupils from our secondary schools in the Highlands. They have debated a variety of issues, particularly drugs. The feeling of those young people and of all of us on the steering committee was that the parliament was very inclusive. We have used that word several times in the chamber today. The young people felt that they had a role and that their views were being taken on board.

I contrast that with my experience at the recent election. If it does not exist already, there is a threat of there being increasing disillusionment with the political process among young people in Scotland. To take forward the remarks made by Mr McLeish, who has now left, and by George Reid, it is important to reverse that trend. Our democracy is precious—people fought and died for it and the young must be included in it.

I welcome the comments made on page 103 of the CSG report, but we must be wary of right-on, politically correct ways of approaching such measures. I recommend that ministers consider a slightly more regionalised and more local model for a youth parliament.

I also refer ministers back to page 96 of the report, which states:

\"For example, North Lanarkshire Council considered that a partnership approach between the new Parliament and the local authorities would have the advantage of allowing for local government to be used as a means of collecting public opinion.\"

I strongly suggest to Mr Wallace and Mr McLeish that they consider sending a message to encourage or even compel Scottish local authorities to establish a system of youth parliaments the length and breadth of Scotland. Such a system need not cost a great deal. The appropriate health boards could join in, as well as any other bodies that were identified in due course. Ministers would then hear the opinions of young people, who, let us face it, often know rather more than their fathers—my children often correct me on many things.

The local authority interface would be one way of spreading the word and bringing opinions back to the Parliament. I am deadly serious about that suggestion. I have been going on about it for some time, and I hope that members from all parties will support it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.42035+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C704467", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Consultative Steering Group", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26614, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 29.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 29.0, "ID": 26614, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 75.0, "ContributionID": 704467, "EditedText": "Will you wind up, please?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will you wind up, please?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.42035+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1775E171P452C704468", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Consultative Steering Group", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26614, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 29.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 29.0, "ID": 26614, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeod, Fiona", "ID": 1775, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona McLeod", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona McLeod: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 77.0, "ContributionID": 704468, "EditedText": "With its new Parliament, Scotland is ideally placed to become a world leader in the knowledge century that we are about to enter, but that will happen only if we heed the professionals and adopt a coherent, integrated approach to information management. I commend the work of Janet Seaton, Bill Bell and all the partner libraries. They worked to tight time scales and with often scant or non-existent budgets to ensure that a fledging information service was available for the start of this Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "With its new Parliament, Scotland is ideally placed to become a world leader in the knowledge century that we are about to enter, but that will happen only if we heed the professionals and adopt a coherent, integrated approach to information management.

I commend the work of Janet Seaton, Bill Bell and all the partner libraries. They worked to tight time scales and with often scant or non-existent budgets to ensure that a fledging information service was available for the start of this Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.42035+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C704470", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Consultative Steering Group", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26614, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 29.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 29.0, "ID": 26614, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 82.0, "ContributionID": 704470, "EditedText": "Will you wind up, please?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will you wind up, please?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.42035+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C704485", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Consultative Steering Group", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26614, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 29.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 29.0, "ID": 26614, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 122.0, "ContributionID": 704485, "EditedText": "If Mr Welsh will bear with me on that last point, I was coming to the important point about the civic forum raised by Mr Reid and others. Information technology is an important part of how the Parliament will operate. We are fortunate that there is expertise in our own ranks; Fiona McLeod has expertise in librarianship and Elaine Thomson and David Mundell have expertise in information technology. I hope that the nature of the Parliament is that we will use the expertise outside it and within it to ensure that we impart information effectively. Remote areas were mentioned. From Orkney, Edinburgh is remote. If we want a two-way process, people in all parts of Scotland ought to know what we are doing here. However, it is equally important that we—who are working here in meetings of the Parliament, in the Executive, and in committees—must have a way in which to find out what people in all parts of Scotland are thinking. I do not think that we can understate the importance of IT and other refined means of communication for maximising that two-way flow of information.", "EditedTextHTML": "If Mr Welsh will bear with me on that last point, I was coming to the important point about the civic forum raised by Mr Reid and others.

Information technology is an important part of how the Parliament will operate. We are fortunate that there is expertise in our own ranks; Fiona McLeod has expertise in librarianship and Elaine Thomson and David Mundell have expertise in information technology. I hope that the nature of the Parliament is that we will use the expertise outside it and within it to ensure that we impart information effectively.

Remote areas were mentioned. From Orkney, Edinburgh is remote. If we want a two-way process, people in all parts of Scotland ought to know what we are doing here. However, it is equally important that we—who are working here in meetings of the Parliament, in the Executive, and in committees—must have a way in which to find out what people in all parts of Scotland are thinking. I do not think that we can understate the importance of IT and other refined means of

communication for maximising that two-way flow of information.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.42035+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704502", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26615, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 130.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 130.0, "ID": 26615, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 150.0, "ContributionID": 704502, "EditedText": "Business Motion", "EditedTextHTML": "Business Motion

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.42035+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2185E120P328C704476", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Consultative Steering Group", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26614, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 29.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 29.0, "ID": 26614, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Brown, Robert", "ID": 2185, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robert Brown", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robert Brown (Glasgow) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 99.0, "ContributionID": 704476, "EditedText": "Karen Gillon's comments were a timely reminder of what this debate is about: we are dealing with the procedures of the Parliament, which are a means to an end. However, the tone of the debate has been very good. Mr McLeish and Mr Reid made distinguished speeches earlier, and we would all agree with them. A considerable onus lies on the Executive. Page 8 of the CSG report states that it \"is essential that the culture of openness and accessibility is reflected in the working of the Scottish Executive.\" That is about balance between the Parliament, the Executive and the people of Scotland. I ask Jim Wallace, when he winds up, to comment on the civil servants' relationship with the Parliament. Donald Gorrie has made a point on that matter—it is a fundamental one. I know that civil servants remain Crown employees, but I have never for the life of me been able to understand why this Parliament should have so much difficulty with the concept of direct access to civil servants. When I served on Glasgow District Council, there was no problem: we went to see the chief executive or head of department, obtained information and got on with our work. The approach was open. There did not seem to be any great difficulty in managing that, nor with the idea of responsibility to the council's executive. I also ask Mr Wallace to deal with how the Executive will approach the mechanisms for dealing with human rights: for legislation and for its own activities. It is important that the proper tone is set. It is also important to strike a balance with the voluntary sector. Our society is pluralist; it is the Parliament's duty to reflect that in its operations. The voluntary sector is in many ways the key feature of society. Often, voluntary sector organisations have been grant-funded on the basis that they should in some way fit into the corporate objectives of either central or local government, but the voluntary sector and its different sections have their own criteria and their own priorities, which, in a pluralist society, are just as valid and should be recognised. It would be wrong to impose a structure that in any way dampened down the rights of the voluntary sector. My final point is on the power of the committees. They will be extremely important, and the committee chairs, the rapporteurs and the vice- chairs, if we have them, must take an approach that is separate and independent from that of the Executive. The members who hold those positions will be the representatives par excellence of the Parliament, and it is important that they reflect that in the way in which they operate. The CSG report, as Robin Harper said, is excellent and a good basis for proceeding. Let us try to have the robust exchange of views that Bill Aitken and David McLetchie talked about—that is a valid point—but without recourse to words such as dishonesty and sanctimoniousness, and other personalised words. If we approach each other in a spirit of courtesy, it may well be more possible to take on the points made by Opposition parties and Opposition members.", "EditedTextHTML": "Karen Gillon's comments were a timely reminder of what this debate is about: we are dealing with the procedures of the Parliament, which are a means to an end. However, the tone of the debate has been very good. Mr McLeish and Mr Reid made distinguished speeches earlier, and we would all agree with them.

A considerable onus lies on the Executive. Page 8 of the CSG report states that it

\"is essential that the culture of openness and accessibility is reflected in the working of the Scottish Executive.\"

That is about balance between the Parliament, the Executive and the people of Scotland. I ask Jim Wallace, when he winds up, to comment on the civil servants' relationship with the Parliament. Donald Gorrie has made a point on that matter—it is a fundamental one. I know that civil servants remain Crown employees, but I have never for the life of me been able to understand why this Parliament should have so much difficulty with the concept of direct access to civil servants.

When I served on Glasgow District Council, there was no problem: we went to see the chief executive or head of department, obtained information and got on with our work. The approach was open. There did not seem to be any great difficulty in managing that, nor with the idea of responsibility to the council's executive.

I also ask Mr Wallace to deal with how the Executive will approach the mechanisms for dealing with human rights: for legislation and for its own activities. It is important that the proper tone is set.

It is also important to strike a balance with the voluntary sector. Our society is pluralist; it is the Parliament's duty to reflect that in its operations. The voluntary sector is in many ways the key feature of society. Often, voluntary sector organisations have been grant-funded on the basis that they should in some way fit into the corporate objectives of either central or local government, but the voluntary sector and its different sections have their own criteria and their own priorities, which, in a pluralist society, are just as valid and should be recognised. It would be wrong to impose a structure that in any way dampened down the rights of the voluntary sector.

My final point is on the power of the committees. They will be extremely important, and the committee chairs, the rapporteurs and the vice- chairs, if we have them, must take an approach that is separate and independent from that of the Executive. The members who hold those positions will be the representatives par excellence of the Parliament, and it is important that they reflect that in the way in which they operate.

The CSG report, as Robin Harper said, is excellent and a good basis for proceeding. Let us try to have the robust exchange of views that Bill Aitken and David McLetchie talked about—that is a valid point—but without recourse to words such as dishonesty and sanctimoniousness, and other personalised words. If we approach each other in a spirit of courtesy, it may well be more possible to take on the points made by Opposition parties and Opposition members.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.42035+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2223E203P342C704478", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Consultative Steering Group", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26614, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 29.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 29.0, "ID": 26614, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scott, Tavish", "ID": 2223, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Shetland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tavish Scott", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tavish Scott (Shetland) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 105.0, "ContributionID": 704478, "EditedText": "I shall speak on the section of the CSG report that deals with the sharing of power and the role of civic society. Paragraph 19 says: \"The development and implementation of legislation needs to take account of the diversity which exists across Scotland. Specifically, we recognise that well intentioned legislation cannot always be implemented in an Islands context without practical difficulties arising.\" There is still concern in areas such as Shetland that the Parliament will concentrate on the needs of the central belt, not on those of peripheral, rural and island areas. It is up to the Parliament to demonstrate that that is not the case and that there are ways in which peripheral, rural and island areas can be at the heart of what goes on in here—most importantly, in the committees. We have it in our hands to choose between a Parliament that is only for the central belt and one that is for all of Scotland's diverse regions. That is the broad context in which I enthusiastically welcome the CSG report. Right from the early days of the Scottish constitutional convention, representatives of the island areas—Shetland, Orkney and the Western Isles—have argued constructively for the special needs of those areas to be recognised. I pay tribute to those who worked on such bodies as the islands working group of the SCC. Their ideas are coming to fruition in the CSG report and the standing orders. Islands representatives have pointed out—right across the spectrum of policy issues—that they live in a different environment: a fresh wind in Edinburgh is but a gentle breeze at home in Lerwick. They have also drawn attention to the problems that we face day in, day out. A short journey to an out-patient clinic in a Glasgow hospital contrasts with the experience of someone who lives on Unst, who must take a ferry, a car, a ferry, a car, a plane and a taxi to get to the middle of Aberdeen, and must spend two nights away from home. There are differences in perspective and of practical considerations. Any member here could listen to a representative of the Hjaltland Housing Association for a spare hour or two, who would illustrate the problems of trying to make warm and draught-free houses that are built to a standard Scottish Homes will fund. There are big differences between the Scottish regions in such practical matters. That is one of the great strengths and delights of Scotland. The islands are different and they deserve to be given special consideration. Page 6 of the CSG report says:\"We recommend that committees engaged in pre- legislative scrutiny should specifically address the issue of implementation in Island areas and where appropriate make recommendations for suitable amendments or derogations.\" That is a particularly important sentence. We should ensure that legislation that would not work in the Western Isles, or which would damage a business in Orkney, is not introduced. Such problems were recognised by the Scottish constitutional convention, and here we have the mechanisms to provide practical safeguards for island areas. In our representation of issues in the islands, we do not seek to clog up the business of the Parliament; we seek to ensure that the interests of those areas will be looked into by the Parliament as a matter of routine. The simplest way forward would be to put in place a requirement for each item of legislation to be accompanied by a memorandum that examines its implications for island areas and proposes exemptions or special provisions for the islands, if necessary. That is what I ask the minister to consider in his concluding remarks.", "EditedTextHTML": "I shall speak on the section of the CSG report that deals with the sharing of power and the role of civic society. Paragraph 19 says:

\"The development and implementation of legislation needs to take account of the diversity which exists across Scotland. Specifically, we recognise that well intentioned legislation cannot always be implemented in an Islands context without practical difficulties arising.\"

There is still concern in areas such as Shetland that the Parliament will concentrate on the needs of the central belt, not on those of peripheral, rural and island areas. It is up to the Parliament to demonstrate that that is not the case and that there are ways in which peripheral, rural and island areas can be at the heart of what goes on in here—most importantly, in the committees. We have it in our hands to choose between a Parliament that is only for the central belt and one that is for all of Scotland's diverse regions. That is the broad context in which I enthusiastically welcome the CSG report.

Right from the early days of the Scottish constitutional convention, representatives of the island areas—Shetland, Orkney and the Western Isles—have argued constructively for the special needs of those areas to be recognised. I pay tribute to those who worked on such bodies as the islands working group of the SCC. Their ideas are coming to fruition in the CSG report and the standing orders.

Islands representatives have pointed out—right across the spectrum of policy issues—that they live in a different environment: a fresh wind in Edinburgh is but a gentle breeze at home in Lerwick. They have also drawn attention to the problems that we face day in, day out. A short journey to an out-patient clinic in a Glasgow hospital contrasts with the experience of someone who lives on Unst, who must take a ferry, a car, a ferry, a car, a plane and a taxi to get to the middle of Aberdeen, and must spend two nights away from home.

There are differences in perspective and of practical considerations. Any member here could listen to a representative of the Hjaltland Housing Association for a spare hour or two, who would illustrate the problems of trying to make warm and draught-free houses that are built to a standard Scottish Homes will fund. There are big differences between the Scottish regions in such practical matters. That is one of the great strengths and delights of Scotland. The islands are different and they deserve to be given special consideration.

Page 6 of the CSG report says:

\"We recommend that committees engaged in pre- legislative scrutiny should specifically address the issue of implementation in Island areas and where appropriate make recommendations for suitable amendments or derogations.\"

That is a particularly important sentence. We should ensure that legislation that would not work in the Western Isles, or which would damage a business in Orkney, is not introduced. Such problems were recognised by the Scottish constitutional convention, and here we have the mechanisms to provide practical safeguards for island areas.

In our representation of issues in the islands, we do not seek to clog up the business of the Parliament; we seek to ensure that the interests of those areas will be looked into by the Parliament as a matter of routine. The simplest way forward would be to put in place a requirement for each item of legislation to be accompanied by a memorandum that examines its implications for island areas and proposes exemptions or special provisions for the islands, if necessary. That is what I ask the minister to consider in his concluding remarks.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.42035+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C704481", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Consultative Steering Group", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26614, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 29.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 29.0, "ID": 26614, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice (Mr Jim Wallace): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 114.0, "ContributionID": 704481, "EditedText": "This has been a very useful debate. Those of us who were involved in the consultative steering group were only too pleased that the debate should take place early in the Parliament so that we could hear the views of members. All the CSG could do was make recommendations. Over time, it will fall to the Parliament to flesh out and change those recommendations where necessary. Although the CSG arrived at a report that was based on consensus, it is fair to say that, in reaching that consensus, there was some pretty robust discussion. That gives the lie to the idea that all consensual agreements are somewhat soggy and are arrived at in some watery way. It is possible for robust discussion to lead to consensus. Shona Robison drew attention to the passage in the report that said that we should not indulge in Westminster-style point scoring. Therefore, if I say no more about David McLetchie's speech, I am sure that members will understand. Some very important remarks have been made and it is vital that this Parliament should, at the earliest opportunity, affirm the key principles of the report. Mr McLeish reminded us of them: power should be shared between the Parliament, the Executive and the people of Scotland; the Executive should be accountable to the Parliament, and the Parliament to the people; the Parliament should be open, accessible and participative; and its operations should embrace equal opportunities for all. A number of comments reflecting on those key principles have been made during the debate. Michael Matheson referred to the importance of disability access. I think that I am right, Sir David, in passing that buck to you and to the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body, which has that responsibility. I am sure, however, that everyone will have heard those important comments on access and facilities for people with disabilities. Substance is already being given to the consultative steering group's recommendations on equal opportunities by the fact that we will have an Equal Opportunities Committee. It will be up to that committee to organise itself, but it could, if it wanted to, appoint a number of special advisers from ethnic communities or other groups where there was felt to be a need for equal opportunities. The committee could also establish a panel of experts to assist it. There are imaginative and innovative ways in which the bones of the CSG principles can be given more substance, particularly as the committees get down to work. Many of the CSG recommendations are already in operation. We have electronic voting, which we now take for granted, although those of us brought up in the Westminster tradition find it a revolution and far simpler and speedier than what happens in Westminster. Tavish Scott mentioned island communities. Rule 9.3.3 of the standing orders says that the policy memorandum that the Executive will be obliged to supply along with a bill must assess the effects of the bill on, among other things, equal opportunities and island communities. It will then be for the committee to assess that policy memorandum. It will also have to address how a particular piece of legislation will impact on an island community. I point out to Robert Brown that the policy memorandum must also include the human rights aspect of any piece of legislation. I remind members that, from 1 July when we obtain our full powers, the legislation says that the European convention on human rights must underpin everything we do—all policies and all the legislation passed by this Parliament must comply with the convention. It is almost a foundation stone of our new constitutional settlement that human rights will be part and parcel of what we do.", "EditedTextHTML": "This has been a very useful debate. Those of us who were involved in the consultative steering group were only too pleased that the debate should take place early in the Parliament so that we could hear the views of members. All the CSG could do was make recommendations. Over time, it will fall to the Parliament to flesh out and change those recommendations where necessary.

Although the CSG arrived at a report that was based on consensus, it is fair to say that, in reaching that consensus, there was some pretty robust discussion. That gives the lie to the idea that all consensual agreements are somewhat soggy and are arrived at in some watery way. It is possible for robust discussion to lead to consensus.

Shona Robison drew attention to the passage in the report that said that we should not indulge in Westminster-style point scoring. Therefore, if I say no more about David McLetchie's speech, I am sure that members will understand.

Some very important remarks have been made and it is vital that this Parliament should, at the earliest opportunity, affirm the key principles of the report. Mr McLeish reminded us of them: power should be shared between the Parliament, the Executive and the people of Scotland; the Executive should be accountable to the Parliament, and the Parliament to the people; the Parliament should be open, accessible and participative; and its operations should embrace equal opportunities for all. A number of comments reflecting on those key principles have been made during the debate.

Michael Matheson referred to the importance of disability access. I think that I am right, Sir David,

in passing that buck to you and to the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body, which has that responsibility. I am sure, however, that everyone will have heard those important comments on access and facilities for people with disabilities.

Substance is already being given to the consultative steering group's recommendations on equal opportunities by the fact that we will have an Equal Opportunities Committee. It will be up to that committee to organise itself, but it could, if it wanted to, appoint a number of special advisers from ethnic communities or other groups where there was felt to be a need for equal opportunities. The committee could also establish a panel of experts to assist it. There are imaginative and innovative ways in which the bones of the CSG principles can be given more substance, particularly as the committees get down to work.

Many of the CSG recommendations are already in operation. We have electronic voting, which we now take for granted, although those of us brought up in the Westminster tradition find it a revolution and far simpler and speedier than what happens in Westminster.

Tavish Scott mentioned island communities. Rule 9.3.3 of the standing orders says that the policy memorandum that the Executive will be obliged to supply along with a bill must assess the effects of the bill on, among other things, equal opportunities and island communities. It will then be for the committee to assess that policy memorandum. It will also have to address how a particular piece of legislation will impact on an island community.

I point out to Robert Brown that the policy memorandum must also include the human rights aspect of any piece of legislation. I remind members that, from 1 July when we obtain our full powers, the legislation says that the European convention on human rights must underpin everything we do—all policies and all the legislation passed by this Parliament must comply with the convention. It is almost a foundation stone of our new constitutional settlement that human rights will be part and parcel of what we do.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C704483", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Consultative Steering Group", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26614, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 29.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 29.0, "ID": 26614, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 118.0, "ContributionID": 704483, "EditedText": "The impact of the European convention on human rights and the Human Rights Act 1998 on Westminster legislation is different from the impact of the convention on legislation passed by this Parliament. Any legislation passed by this Parliament that did not comply with the European convention on human rights would be shot down as ultra vires, whereas it would not be possible for the courts to strike down Westminster legislation. Mr Salmond knows, however, that there is a fast-track procedure in the human rights legislation that allows Westminster to correct any provision of its legislation that does not comply with our obligations under the convention. Several members have made it clear that participation is key to the way in which this Parliament operates. A monopoly of wisdom is not vested in the 129 of us who were successful in our election to Parliament. Participation must include youth, and I point out to Jamie Stone that the youth parliament will hold a meeting at Murrayfield on 30 June, at which I am sure members will be welcome. My colleague, Mr McLeish, wrote to all local authorities earlier this year expressing support for the youth parliament and inviting them to consider ways in which they could interact with the voice of young people at a local level. Mr Stone and, I think, Karen Gillon talked about the importance of involving our young people. There will be opportunities at a national level to do that and local authorities will be encouraged to follow good practice and get young people involved at a local level. Information is the currency of any informed debate.", "EditedTextHTML": "The impact of the European convention on human rights and the Human Rights Act 1998 on Westminster legislation is different from the impact of the convention on legislation passed by this Parliament. Any legislation passed by this Parliament that did not comply with the European convention on human rights would be shot down as ultra vires, whereas it would not be possible for the courts to strike down Westminster legislation. Mr Salmond knows, however, that there is a fast-track procedure in the human rights legislation that allows Westminster to correct any provision of its legislation that does not comply with our obligations under the convention.

Several members have made it clear that participation is key to the way in which this Parliament operates. A monopoly of wisdom is not vested in the 129 of us who were successful in our election to Parliament. Participation must include youth, and I point out to Jamie Stone that the youth parliament will hold a meeting at Murrayfield on 30 June, at which I am sure members will be welcome.

My colleague, Mr McLeish, wrote to all local authorities earlier this year expressing support for the youth parliament and inviting them to consider ways in which they could interact with the voice of young people at a local level. Mr Stone and, I think, Karen Gillon talked about the importance of involving our young people. There will be opportunities at a national level to do that and local authorities will be encouraged to follow good practice and get young people involved at a local level. Information is the currency of any informed debate.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C704487", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Consultative Steering Group", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26614, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 29.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 29.0, "ID": 26614, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 126.0, "ContributionID": 704487, "EditedText": "Mr Gallie will recognise that the CSG gave much consideration to this matter. There was a consensus on working hours, both across the parties and among those who belonged to no party. I cannot get home at 5.30 pm on a Wednesday. Even if we rose at 4.30 pm I could not get home that night and be back here the following morning. For many people there will be the opportunity to get back home, and it is important that that opportunity is taken. There is provision for meeting late if the need arises. It has already been pointed out that a commitment to the civic forum appears not only in the CSG report, but in the partnership agreement. Mr Reid raised an interesting point about the Parliament, not simply the Executive, being involved. I would be happy for Executive officials to explore with the parliamentary authorities how the Parliament might interact with the civic forum and, through the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body, whether the relationship is workable or appropriate. With regard to funding, we hope that we can channel encouragement into concrete assistance and support for the civic forum. I cannot commit the Executive to a particular level or pattern of funding at this stage because, as Mr Reid knows, there is some difficulty with regard to statutory authority, or lack of it. However, I am sure that over the months ahead we will want to discuss how we can give substance to the idea of the civic forum, which is widely supported across the parties. Much support for it has been expressed in the debate today. We all recognise that the relationship between the civil service and the Executive is different from the one that exists between council officials and the council itself. Civil servants are employed by the Crown, whereas council officials are employed by the council. In yesterday's debate on committees, it was said that it is expected that civil servants will be able to give assistance to committees, particularly through the provision of factual information when it is required. The very fact that the Parliament and the civil servants are in Edinburgh will change the atmosphere and environment, compared with the inevitable remoteness that existed when the civil service was based in Edinburgh while our parliamentarians were in London. We are all responsible for ensuring that the Scottish Parliament's operation—in terms of the legislation that it makes and its effectiveness in scrutinising the work of the Executive—becomes an example of good practice that might be followed elsewhere. The great expectations of the Scottish people rest on our shoulders. By embracing the four key CSG principles and putting them into practice in the weeks and months ahead, we can achieve a Parliament for the whole of Scotland, of which, regardless of party, the people of Scotland can be proud.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Gallie will recognise that the CSG gave much consideration to this matter. There was a consensus on working hours, both across the parties and among those who belonged to no party. I cannot get home at 5.30 pm on a Wednesday. Even if we rose at 4.30 pm I could not get home that night and be back here the following morning. For many people there will be the opportunity to get back home, and it is important that that opportunity is taken. There is provision for meeting late if the need arises.

It has already been pointed out that a commitment to the civic forum appears not only in the CSG report, but in the partnership agreement. Mr Reid raised an interesting point about the Parliament, not simply the Executive, being involved. I would be happy for Executive officials to explore with the parliamentary authorities how the Parliament might interact with the civic forum and, through the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body, whether the relationship is workable or appropriate.

With regard to funding, we hope that we can channel encouragement into concrete assistance and support for the civic forum. I cannot commit the Executive to a particular level or pattern of funding at this stage because, as Mr Reid knows, there is some difficulty with regard to statutory authority, or lack of it. However, I am sure that over the months ahead we will want to discuss how we can give substance to the idea of the civic forum, which is widely supported across the parties. Much support for it has been expressed in the debate today.

We all recognise that the relationship between the civil service and the Executive is different from the one that exists between council officials and the council itself. Civil servants are employed by the Crown, whereas council officials are employed by the council.

In yesterday's debate on committees, it was said that it is expected that civil servants will be able to give assistance to committees, particularly through the provision of factual information when it is required. The very fact that the Parliament and the civil servants are in Edinburgh will change the atmosphere and environment, compared with the inevitable remoteness that existed when the civil service was based in Edinburgh while our parliamentarians were in London.

We are all responsible for ensuring that the Scottish Parliament's operation—in terms of the legislation that it makes and its effectiveness in scrutinising the work of the Executive—becomes an example of good practice that might be followed elsewhere.

The great expectations of the Scottish people rest on our shoulders. By embracing the four key CSG principles and putting them into practice in the weeks and months ahead, we can achieve a Parliament for the whole of Scotland, of which, regardless of party, the people of Scotland can be proud.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C704488", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Consultative Steering Group", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26614, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 29.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 29.0, "ID": 26614, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 128.0, "ContributionID": 704488, "EditedText": "That concludes the debate on the CSG report; we will vote on the motion during decision time at the end of this morning's meeting.", "EditedTextHTML": "That concludes the debate on the CSG report; we will vote on the motion during decision time at the end of this morning's meeting.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2228E151P202C704490", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26615, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 130.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 130.0, "ID": 26615, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McCabe, Tom", "ID": 2228, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Tom McCabe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Business Manager (Mr Tom McCabe): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 134.0, "ContributionID": 704490, "EditedText": "Before I move the motion, perhaps it will help if I explain that in the light of developments relating to the Holyrood project, I intend to propose to the Parliamentary Bureau that time be set aside in next week's business for a debate, on an Executive motion, on the Holyrood project. If that is acceptable, I propose to amend next week's business as follows. On Wednesday 16 June at 9.30 am, I will move a revised business motion after discussion with the bureau. That will be followed by a statement by the First Minister on the Executive's legislative proposals. That debate will continue all day on Wednesday and will conclude at 5 pm. That will make space on Thursday 17 June for a debate on the Holyrood project, which will commence at 10.30 am and conclude at 12.20 pm. On the afternoon of 17 June, the business will be as proposed in the motion before Parliament today: oral questions will begin at 2.30 pm and will be followed by a debate on the motion on tuition fees, in the name of the Deputy First Minister. At the conclusion of that business, we will be asked to agree a motion on committee membership and convenerships. The business to be taken in the second week, on Wednesday 23 and Thursday 24 June, is provisional. However, I confirm that it is intended that the Deputy First Minister will make a statement on a subject to be announced on Wednesday 23 June and that a debate on financial issues will take place during the afternoon of Thursday 24 June. In addition, members will wish to note that provision has been made for the first non-Executive business to be held on the morning of Thursday 24 June on a motion from the Scottish nationalist party. MEMBERS: \"We are the Scottish National party.\" I apologise. If members submit a range of suggestions for that motion, I will try to ensure that the one that is suitable to most members is selected.", "EditedTextHTML": "Before I move the motion, perhaps it will help if I explain that in the light of developments relating to the Holyrood project, I intend to propose to the Parliamentary Bureau that time be set aside in next week's business for a debate, on an Executive motion, on the Holyrood project.

If that is acceptable, I propose to amend next week's business as follows. On Wednesday 16 June at 9.30 am, I will move a revised business motion after discussion with the bureau. That will be followed by a statement by the First Minister on the Executive's legislative proposals. That debate will continue all day on Wednesday and will conclude at 5 pm. That will make space on Thursday 17 June for a debate on the Holyrood project, which will commence at 10.30 am and conclude at 12.20 pm.

On the afternoon of 17 June, the business will be as proposed in the motion before Parliament today: oral questions will begin at 2.30 pm and will be followed by a debate on the motion on tuition fees, in the name of the Deputy First Minister. At the conclusion of that business, we will be asked to agree a motion on committee membership and convenerships.

The business to be taken in the second week, on Wednesday 23 and Thursday 24 June, is provisional. However, I confirm that it is intended that the Deputy First Minister will make a statement on a subject to be announced on Wednesday 23 June and that a debate on financial issues will take place during the afternoon of Thursday 24 June. In addition, members will wish to note that provision has been made for the first non-Executive business to be held on the morning of Thursday 24 June on a motion from the Scottish nationalist party. [MEMBERS: \"We are the Scottish National party.\"] I apologise. If members submit a range of suggestions for that motion, I will try to ensure that the one that is suitable to most members is selected.

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" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704498", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26615, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 130.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 130.0, "ID": 26615, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 146.0, "ContributionID": 704498, "EditedText": "followed by", "EditedTextHTML": "followed by

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" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704507", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26615, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 130.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 130.0, "ID": 26615, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 155.0, "ContributionID": 704507, "EditedText": "Executive Business", "EditedTextHTML": "Executive Business

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704508", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26615, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 130.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 130.0, "ID": 26615, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 156.0, "ContributionID": 704508, "EditedText": "5.00 pm Decision Time followed by", "EditedTextHTML": "5.00 pm Decision Time followed by

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704509", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26615, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 130.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 130.0, "ID": 26615, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 157.0, "ContributionID": 704509, "EditedText": "Members' Business Thursday 24 June 1999", "EditedTextHTML": "Members' Business Thursday 24 June 1999

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704510", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26615, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 130.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 130.0, "ID": 26615, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 158.0, "ContributionID": 704510, "EditedText": "9.30 am Non-executive Business (on a motion from the SNP) followed by", "EditedTextHTML": "9.30 am Non-executive Business (on a motion from the SNP) followed by

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704511", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26615, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 130.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 130.0, "ID": 26615, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 159.0, "ContributionID": 704511, "EditedText": "Business Motion", "EditedTextHTML": "Business Motion

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704516", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26615, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 130.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 130.0, "ID": 26615, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 165.0, "ContributionID": 704516, "EditedText": "That the Parliament agrees that - (1) the Office of the Clerk should be open on each of the following days:", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament agrees that - (1) the Office of the Clerk should be open on each of the following days:

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C704518", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26616, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 167.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 167.0, "ID": 26616, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 169.0, "ContributionID": 704518, "EditedText": "The question is, that motion S1M-39, in the name of Henry McLeish, be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "The question is, that motion S1M-39, in the name of Henry McLeish, be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704523", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26616, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 167.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 167.0, "ID": 26616, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 176.0, "ContributionID": 704523, "EditedText": "That the Parliament agrees that - (1) the Office of the Clerk should be open on each of the following days: Monday 21 to Friday 25 June and Monday 28 June to Friday 2 July and (2) the summer recess should begin on Friday 2 July 1999 after the business of that day has been concluded and should end on Monday 30 August 1999, with the next meeting of the Parliament being held on or after Tuesday 31 August 1999.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament agrees that - (1) the Office of the Clerk should be open on each of the following days: Monday 21 to Friday 25 June and Monday 28 June to Friday 2 July and (2) the summer recess should begin on Friday 2 July 1999 after the business of that day has been concluded and should end on Monday 30 August 1999, with the next meeting of the Parliament being held on or after Tuesday 31 August 1999.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4359743+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2133E222P520C704480", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 09 Jun 1999", "ID": 4167 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-09T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Consultative Steering Group", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26614, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 29.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 29.0, "ID": 26614, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Matheson, Michael", "ID": 2133, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Matheson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Matheson (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 111.0, "ContributionID": 704480, "EditedText": "I want to address the issue of equal opportunities, which has been raised by several members. In particular, I want to mention annex H in the CSG report, entitled \"Mainstreaming Equality in the Scottish Parliament\". During the past week, I have had the opportunity to visit all the main buildings in the parliamentary complex and to assess them for access for disabled peopled. Although some good work has been undertaken, much work has still to be carried out. I ask the Minister for Justice, in winding up, to give me an assurance that the further adaptations that are required to the Parliament's buildings will be undertaken as soon as possible. I shall give some examples. Cannonball House does not have any form of disabled access. The microphone consoles that we use have no indication for someone with a visual impairment. The swipe card points in the building are too high for someone in a wheelchair. Those are basic issues that could readily be addressed, and I ask that they be carried out, given that we will be here for at least the next two years. Should this Parliament decide to move elsewhere, the new Parliament should be barrier free. Unfortunately, disability is a social construct; it is society that puts barriers in the way of people with disabilities. Before we start talking about equal opportunities and telling other people what to do, we should sort out our own back yard.", "EditedTextHTML": "I want to address the issue of equal opportunities, which has been raised by several members. In particular, I want to mention annex H in the CSG report, entitled \"Mainstreaming Equality in the Scottish Parliament\".

During the past week, I have had the opportunity to visit all the main buildings in the parliamentary complex and to assess them for access for disabled peopled. Although some good work has been undertaken, much work has still to be carried out. I ask the Minister for Justice, in winding up, to give me an assurance that the further adaptations that are required to the Parliament's buildings will be undertaken as soon as possible.

I shall give some examples. Cannonball House does not have any form of disabled access. The microphone consoles that we use have no indication for someone with a visual impairment. The swipe card points in the building are too high for someone in a wheelchair. Those are basic issues that could readily be addressed, and I ask that they be carried out, given that we will be here for at least the next two years.

Should this Parliament decide to move elsewhere, the new Parliament should be barrier free. Unfortunately, disability is a social construct; it is society that puts barriers in the way of people with disabilities. Before we start talking about equal opportunities and telling other people what to do, we should sort out our own back yard.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:01:04.7890265+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C704256", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 130.0, "ContributionID": 704256, "EditedText": "Will Ms Whitefield give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Ms Whitefield give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:00:59.8834011+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C704427", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Park", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26611, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 411.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 411.0, "ID": 26611, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 450.0, "ContributionID": 704427, "EditedText": "I will not. I should emphasise to Mr Ewing that we do not want one blueprint for the whole of Scotland. We need national parks proposals that are appropriate to individual areas. We as a Parliament need to steer a consultation process, initiated by the Executive and the Parliament, and covering the whole of Scotland—", "EditedTextHTML": "I will not. I should emphasise to Mr Ewing that we do not want one blueprint for the whole of Scotland. We need national parks proposals that are appropriate to individual areas. We as a Parliament need to steer a consultation process, initiated by the Executive and the Parliament, and covering the whole of Scotland—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:13.3570755+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C704196", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26607, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26607, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 4.0, "ContributionID": 704196, "EditedText": "The first item of business this afternoon will be consideration of Parliamentary Bureau motion S1M-35 to amend the business programme that was agreed by Parliament on Wednesday 2 June, and an amendment to that motion. Before I call Mr Tom McCabe to move the business motion, I remind members that under standing orders there should be no more than one speaker for and one speaker against the motion and any amendment to it, and that each speaker may speak for no longer than five minutes. As there is one amendment, the debate may last up to 20 minutes, with one speaker for the motion, one for the amendment, one against the motion and one against the amendment. Each speaker will be limited to five minutes.", "EditedTextHTML": "The first item of business this afternoon will be consideration of Parliamentary Bureau motion S1M-35 to amend the business programme that was agreed by Parliament on Wednesday 2 June, and an amendment to that motion. Before I call Mr Tom McCabe to move the business motion, I remind members that under standing orders there should be no more than one speaker for and one speaker against the motion and any amendment to it, and that each speaker may speak for no longer than five minutes. As there is one amendment, the debate may last up to 20 minutes, with one speaker for the motion, one for the amendment, one against the motion and one against the amendment. Each speaker will be limited to five minutes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7484974+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C704198", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26607, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26607, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 8.0, "ContributionID": 704198, "EditedText": "I have every sympathy with that point of order—I have raised the matter myself in the Parliamentary Bureau. The problem stems from the short notice that is required, under the standing orders that we have inherited, for the lodging of motions and amendments. We have agreed that the Procedures Committee should, very early on, examine the matter. We are operating against a timetable that is far too tight. For the immediate future, we are limited by the standing orders. It may help members to know that tomorrow a business motion will be moved that will cover the next fortnight. We will do our best within the limits of the standing orders that we have.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have every sympathy with that point of order—I have raised the matter myself in the Parliamentary Bureau. The problem stems from the short notice that is required, under the standing orders that we have inherited, for the lodging of motions and amendments. We have agreed that the Procedures Committee should, very early on, examine the matter. We are operating against a timetable that is far too tight. For the immediate future, we are limited by the standing orders. It may help members to know that tomorrow a business motion will be moved that will cover the next fortnight. We will do our best within the limits of the standing orders that we have.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704199", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26607, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26607, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 11.0, "ContributionID": 704199, "EditedText": "Motion moved,", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion moved,

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2228E151P202C704207", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26607, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26607, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McCabe, Tom", "ID": 2228, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Tom McCabe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Business Manager (Mr Tom McCabe): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 23.0, "ContributionID": 704207, "EditedText": "I support the amendment that has been moved by Mr Russell, and agree that it would be sensible to include a discussion on information technology and office equipment in the debate on members' allowances. The amendment is not contentious; it deals with a technical matter that was omitted in the drafting of motion S1M-35. The business motion seeks to make two amendments to the programme of business to which the Parliament agreed on Wednesday 2 June. It proposes that, today, immediately after decision time, there should be a 30-minute debate on the subject of motion S1M-24, in the name of Dr Sylvia Jackson, on the Loch Lomond and Trossachs national park. That will be the first members' business debate. Such debates will be included in the business programme regularly, and the subject will be chosen by the Parliamentary Bureau from the motions that members have lodged. The debates will give members the opportunity to have debated by the Parliament issues that they consider to be of particular local interest or concern. The other amendment proposed in the business motion affects tomorrow's business. It is proposed that, at 10.30 am, the First Minister will make a statement on legislation in the UK Parliament concerning devolved matters. That will allow him to respond to some of the points raised during last week's debate on the orders made under the Scotland Act 1998. The matter is of particular interest and relevance to the Parliament, and the Parliamentary Bureau has taken the view that it should be included in the business programme at an early date. The debate will be followed, no later than 11 am, by a debate on the consultative steering group report. The bureau proposes that the remaining business should remain as set out in the business motion that was approved by the Parliament on 2 June.", "EditedTextHTML": "I support the amendment that has been moved by

Mr Russell, and agree that it would be sensible to include a discussion on information technology and office equipment in the debate on members' allowances. The amendment is not contentious; it deals with a technical matter that was omitted in the drafting of motion S1M-35.

The business motion seeks to make two amendments to the programme of business to which the Parliament agreed on Wednesday 2 June. It proposes that, today, immediately after decision time, there should be a 30-minute debate on the subject of motion S1M-24, in the name of Dr Sylvia Jackson, on the Loch Lomond and Trossachs national park. That will be the first members' business debate. Such debates will be included in the business programme regularly, and the subject will be chosen by the Parliamentary Bureau from the motions that members have lodged. The debates will give members the opportunity to have debated by the Parliament issues that they consider to be of particular local interest or concern.

The other amendment proposed in the business motion affects tomorrow's business. It is proposed that, at 10.30 am, the First Minister will make a statement on legislation in the UK Parliament concerning devolved matters. That will allow him to respond to some of the points raised during last week's debate on the orders made under the Scotland Act 1998. The matter is of particular interest and relevance to the Parliament, and the Parliamentary Bureau has taken the view that it should be included in the business programme at an early date.

The debate will be followed, no later than 11 am, by a debate on the consultative steering group report. The bureau proposes that the remaining business should remain as set out in the business motion that was approved by the Parliament on 2 June.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C704208", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26607, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26607, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Brian Monteith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 25.0, "ContributionID": 704208, "EditedText": "On a point of order. Mr McCabe explained that the reason for having members' business after decision time was so that we could have the opportunity to debate members' concerns. Could you clarify whether other members will be able to speak in such debates?", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. Mr McCabe explained that the reason for having members' business after decision time was so that we could have the opportunity to debate members' concerns. Could you clarify whether other members will be able to speak in such debates?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C704209", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26607, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26607, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 27.0, "ContributionID": 704209, "EditedText": "That is the case, but members' business debates are very short and are the property of the member who has secured them. Speaking off the top of my head, I think that the right thing to do would be to consult the member who has secured the debate and to seek his or her agreement about whether it is reasonable for another member to intervene. As a matter of courtesy, that would be the right way of doing it. Does anybody want to speak against motionS1M-35 or to speak on the amendment proposed by Mr Russell? No. The question is, that amendment S1M-35.1, in the name of Michael Russell, be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is the case, but members' business debates are very short and are the property of the member who has secured them. Speaking off the top of my head, I think that the right thing to do would be to consult the member who has secured the debate and to seek his or her agreement about whether it is reasonable for another member to intervene. As a matter of courtesy, that would be the right way of doing it.

Does anybody want to speak against motion

S1M-35 or to speak on the amendment proposed by Mr Russell? No.

The question is, that amendment S1M-35.1, in the name of Michael Russell, be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704210", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26607, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26607, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 29.0, "ContributionID": 704210, "EditedText": "Amendment agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704212", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26607, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26607, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 32.0, "ContributionID": 704212, "EditedText": "Motion, as amended, agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion, as amended, agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704213", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26607, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26607, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 33.0, "ContributionID": 704213, "EditedText": "That the Parliament agrees the following amendment to the business set out in the business motion agreed by the Parliament on Wednesday 2 June;", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament agrees the following amendment to the business set out in the business motion agreed by the Parliament on Wednesday 2 June;

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C704220", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Committees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26608, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 39.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 39.0, "ID": 26608, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 44.0, "ContributionID": 704220, "EditedText": "I will risk Mr McAllion's disdain by contributing to this afternoon's debate. I draw the Business Manager's attention to motion S1M-7, in which a call was made for committees of the Parliament to meet around Scotland on a roving basis and, where appropriate, to meet permanently at locations outwith the Edinburgh campus. That motion has been signed by members of all six parties represented in this chamber and by the one independent member, so there is clearly a broad consensus in its favour. It would be to the Parliament's credit, in bringing a new democracy to Scotland to start the new century, if we were to assert the fact that the Parliament is not just Edinburgh's, but Scotland's. Indeed, our work should go around the country, both on a roving basis and, where possible, on a permanent basis. I hope that the Business Manager and his deputy will, in their summation, indicate the Government's support for that principle, so that the Parliamentary Bureau can take it forward as part of the structure of committees.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will risk Mr McAllion's disdain by contributing to this afternoon's debate. I draw the Business Manager's attention to motion S1M-7, in which a call was made for committees of the Parliament to meet around Scotland on a roving basis and, where appropriate, to meet permanently at locations outwith the Edinburgh campus. That motion has been signed by members of all six parties represented in this chamber and by the one independent member, so there is clearly a broad consensus in its favour.

It would be to the Parliament's credit, in bringing a new democracy to Scotland to start the new century, if we were to assert the fact that the Parliament is not just Edinburgh's, but Scotland's. Indeed, our work should go around the country, both on a roving basis and, where possible, on a permanent basis. I hope that the Business Manager and his deputy will, in their summation, indicate the Government's support for that principle, so that the Parliamentary Bureau can take it forward as part of the structure of committees.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1754E157P235C704227", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Committees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26608, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 39.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 39.0, "ID": 26608, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Peattie, Cathy", "ID": 1754, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Cathy Peattie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Cathy Peattie (Falkirk East) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 64.0, "ContributionID": 704227, "EditedText": "I welcome the motion. It is vital that our committees are open and inclusive and give people a chance to participate. We should keep the word participation in mind; we talk a lot about consultation, but if the committees are to work and this is to be a people's Parliament, we need to promote the idea of participation. It is important that we look at the way in which the committees gather information, so that there is an opportunity for the voluntary sector, at both local and national levels, and the civic community in Scotland to influence the decision-making process. We must also consider issues such as social inclusion. There is no point talking about social inclusion in isolation; we need the opportunity to visit areas and to allow for other ways of gathering information, such as people's juries, to ensure that local people have a voice. They must be able to speak in their own voice and their own tongue to put forward information. A civic forum would a positive way of influencing the work of the committees. It could feed into the committees and support the development of participation and consultation to ensure that people feel that the Parliament reflects their needs and aspirations.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the motion. It is vital that our committees are open and inclusive and give people a chance to participate. We should keep the word participation in mind; we talk a lot about consultation, but if the committees are to work and this is to be a people's Parliament, we need to promote the idea of participation.

It is important that we look at the way in which the committees gather information, so that there is an opportunity for the voluntary sector, at both local and national levels, and the civic community in Scotland to influence the decision-making process. We must also consider issues such as social inclusion. There is no point talking about social inclusion in isolation; we need the opportunity to visit areas and to allow for other ways of gathering information, such as people's juries, to ensure that local people have a voice. They must be able to speak in their own voice and their own tongue to put forward information.

A civic forum would a positive way of influencing the work of the committees. It could feed into the committees and support the development of participation and consultation to ensure that people feel that the Parliament reflects their needs and aspirations.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1973E119P326C704222", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Committees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26608, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 39.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 39.0, "ID": 26608, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gorrie, Donald", "ID": 1973, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Donald Gorrie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Donald Gorrie (Central Scotland) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 50.0, "ContributionID": 704222, "EditedText": "I have a few points to which I hope Mr McCabe can reply or give some thought. My first point concerns the role of civil servants in supporting and facilitating the committees and making them effective. Traditionally, at Westminster, civil servants worked for ministers and against MPs, or so it always appeared to me. They regarded difficult people such as me as the enemy. We will have to create a new climate of opinion, which may mean that people such as me will have to change as well as the civil servants. I accept that, but in the committees we should all be one team. It is important that civil servants should positively support the committees, because the committees will explore those areas in which the Government does not yet have a policy and will critically examine those areas in which it does. Either way, the skill and knowledge of the civil servants should be fully at the service of the committees. I hope that work will be done on that, and that a concordat—or whatever the current phrase is—is drawn up, so that, working together, we can achieve a slightly better result than our football team does. Secondly, I hope that, in addition to the committees, we can fairly rapidly set up either subcommittees or working groups on areas within the remit of a committee or on areas that cover several committees. For example, there may be other members who, like me, have a particular interest in youth work, which does not figure in any of the remits. Youth work relates to a number of areas, including education, health, law and order, social work and local government. Such sub-committees or working groups could deal with areas in which members—who might not be serving on the relevant committee—had a particular interest and to which they could make a real contribution. Such areas could include the voluntary sector, housing, sport and the arts. One group could look at urban transport and another could look at rural transport. We could make a great deal of progress if fairly small groups of interested people worked on an area. They could sufficiently work up a subject to enable it to be considered by the official committee system. I am sure that the official committees will have a long queue of issues to which they will want to attend. Breaking things down in that way will enable us to make more progress more quickly. I hope that committees can be flexible, so that committee A can have a totally different system of working from that of committee B. Mr McCabe indicated that that might be the case and I would welcome it. I also hope that the committees will not be strangled by bureaucracy. Some thought must be given to timetabling, so that we can all play a full part according to our different interests. There is a difficulty about when groups who come to lobby this Parliament—as opposed to Westminster, where the working day is much longer—can gain access and have their say. That point has been raised with me and with other members who have been to one or two meetings. There should also be an opportunity for all-party groups to meet. As a glutton for punishment, I would have liked larger committees, but obviously that view did not carry the day. The proposed committee structure is a great start; it represents a great opportunity and I hope that Mr McCabe can reassure me on the points that I have raised.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have a few points to which I hope Mr McCabe can reply or give some thought. My first point concerns the role of civil servants in supporting and facilitating the committees and making them effective. Traditionally, at Westminster, civil servants worked for ministers and against MPs, or so it always appeared to me. They regarded difficult people such as me as the enemy.

We will have to create a new climate of opinion, which may mean that people such as me will have to change as well as the civil servants. I accept that, but in the committees we should all be one team. It is important that civil servants should positively support the committees, because the committees will explore those areas in which the Government does not yet have a policy and will critically examine those areas in which it does. Either way, the skill and knowledge of the civil servants should be fully at the service of the committees. I hope that work will be done on that, and that a concordat—or whatever the current phrase is—is drawn up, so that, working together, we can achieve a slightly better result than our football team does.

Secondly, I hope that, in addition to the committees, we can fairly rapidly set up either subcommittees or working groups on areas within the remit of a committee or on areas that cover several committees. For example, there may be other members who, like me, have a particular interest in youth work, which does not figure in any of the remits. Youth work relates to a number of areas, including education, health, law and order, social work and local government.

Such sub-committees or working groups could deal with areas in which members—who might not be serving on the relevant committee—had a particular interest and to which they could make a real contribution. Such areas could include the voluntary sector, housing, sport and the arts. One

group could look at urban transport and another could look at rural transport. We could make a great deal of progress if fairly small groups of interested people worked on an area. They could sufficiently work up a subject to enable it to be considered by the official committee system. I am sure that the official committees will have a long queue of issues to which they will want to attend. Breaking things down in that way will enable us to make more progress more quickly.

I hope that committees can be flexible, so that committee A can have a totally different system of working from that of committee B. Mr McCabe indicated that that might be the case and I would welcome it. I also hope that the committees will not be strangled by bureaucracy.

Some thought must be given to timetabling, so that we can all play a full part according to our different interests. There is a difficulty about when groups who come to lobby this Parliament—as opposed to Westminster, where the working day is much longer—can gain access and have their say. That point has been raised with me and with other members who have been to one or two meetings. There should also be an opportunity for all-party groups to meet.

As a glutton for punishment, I would have liked larger committees, but obviously that view did not carry the day. The proposed committee structure is a great start; it represents a great opportunity and I hope that Mr McCabe can reassure me on the points that I have raised.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C704223", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Committees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26608, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 39.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 39.0, "ID": 26608, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell (South of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 53.0, "ContributionID": 704223, "EditedText": "On behalf of the SNP, I welcome the motion. Mr Gorrie is right to say that the committees will be the building blocks of the Parliament's success. The committees have their own dynamic and, as Mr McCabe outlined, if they work productively and strongly they will inform not just the future of the Parliament but the future of everything that the Parliament does. I also welcome the role of the Parliamentary Bureau in drawing up the committee proposals. The bureau's work will be undertaken, as much as possible, by consensus; this motion shows that it is possible to produce detailed proposals about how the Parliament should work. That has been achieved through the work of the business managers, who have produced a set of proposals that meets all the requirements of all the parties. In the subject committees, the proposals provide for detailed scrutiny and innovation across the whole range of work that is to be done. They also provide for the mandatory committees, which will have an important role in supervising what takes place in the Parliament, in making recommendations and in dealing with what one might call the second level of legislation with which the Parliament might be concerned. I echo James Douglas-Hamilton in saying that it is important that the Procedures Committee makes an early start on the process of examining the standing orders. Clerks and members have raised a whole range of issues on which the standing orders, ambitious and optimistic as they are, do not relate to the manner in which day-to-day work is already proceeding. Although the Procedures Committee is obliged to review the standing orders by next May, I hope that it will move forward quickly, look in detail at the complaints and recommendations that members may have and return with a set of revised standing orders sometime in the autumn. Andrew Wilson's motion, of which I was a signatory, has widespread support among all parties and all members. It is important that the Parliament and its committees are seen all over Scotland, outside Edinburgh. I hope that we will be ambitious about where we wish our committees to meet. There are some very lovely parts of the south of Scotland where committees would be immensely welcome. I do not mean just Dumfries and Ayr—I see Mr Gallie nodding—and not just Stranraer, but the lovely town of Kirkcudbright, and elsewhere. In Lanark and in the lovely town of Irvine, we will have the opportunity—Laughter. Now, members should not laugh; I notice that Ms Oldfather, the member for Cunninghame South, is laughing. In lovely towns such as Irvine and Kilwinning, and in towns throughout the south of Scotland, we could have meetings of committees and I hope, in time, meetings of the Parliament. I welcome the motion, which has the support of the SNP. I know that all the business managers have worked hard to bring forward the motion and to establish the principle that there will be an opportunity for members of the smaller parties and the independents, as well as members of the major parties, to sit on the committees.", "EditedTextHTML": "On behalf of the SNP, I welcome the motion. Mr Gorrie is right to say that the committees will be the building blocks of the Parliament's success. The committees have their own dynamic and, as Mr McCabe outlined, if they work productively and strongly they will inform not just the future of the Parliament but the future of everything that the Parliament does.

I also welcome the role of the Parliamentary Bureau in drawing up the committee proposals. The bureau's work will be undertaken, as much as possible, by consensus; this motion shows that it is possible to produce detailed proposals about how the Parliament should work. That has been achieved through the work of the business managers, who have produced a set of proposals that meets all the requirements of all the parties. In the subject committees, the proposals provide for detailed scrutiny and innovation across the whole range of work that is to be done. They also provide for the mandatory committees, which will have an important role in supervising what takes place in the Parliament, in making recommendations and in dealing with what one might call the second level of legislation with which the Parliament might be concerned.

I echo James Douglas-Hamilton in saying that it is important that the Procedures Committee makes an early start on the process of examining the standing orders. Clerks and members have raised a whole range of issues on which the standing orders, ambitious and optimistic as they are, do not relate to the manner in which day-to-day work is already proceeding. Although the Procedures Committee is obliged to review the standing orders by next May, I hope that it will move forward quickly, look in detail at the complaints and recommendations that members may have and return with a set of revised standing orders sometime in the autumn.

Andrew Wilson's motion, of which I was a signatory, has widespread support among all parties and all members. It is important that the Parliament and its committees are seen all over Scotland, outside Edinburgh. I hope that we will be ambitious about where we wish our committees to meet. There are some very lovely parts of the south of Scotland where committees would be immensely welcome. I do not mean just Dumfries and Ayr—I see Mr Gallie nodding—and not just Stranraer, but the lovely town of Kirkcudbright, and elsewhere. In Lanark and in the lovely town of Irvine, we will have the opportunity—[Laughter.] Now, members should not laugh; I notice that Ms Oldfather, the member for Cunninghame South, is laughing. In lovely towns such as Irvine and Kilwinning, and in towns throughout the south of Scotland, we could have meetings of committees and I hope, in time, meetings of the Parliament.

I welcome the motion, which has the support of the SNP. I know that all the business managers have worked hard to bring forward the motion and to establish the principle that there will be an opportunity for members of the smaller parties and the independents, as well as members of the major parties, to sit on the committees.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1931E120P189C704224", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Committees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26608, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 39.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 39.0, "ID": 26608, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Muldoon, Bristow", "ID": 1931, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Livingston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bristow Muldoon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bristow Muldoon (Livingston) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 56.0, "ContributionID": 704224, "EditedText": "I, too, welcome the motion submitted by Tom McCabe to establish the Parliament's committees. I regard the committees as an integral part of the way in which the Parliament will conduct its business. They will have a crucial role to play in scrutinising legislation, in involving all of civic Scotland and in giving individual members the opportunity to influence and initiate legislation. I hope that, in establishing the committees, Parliament can start to consider the issues that concern Scotland and move away from some of the insular issues that have been debated in the past week and will probably be debated later today. The people of Scotland expect us to start to debate the issues that really concern them: improving health; investing in education; caring for the elderly; and developing the economy. In addressing the key issues, the committees will be vital because of the links that they can build up across many of the subject areas. In particular, I welcome the link between health and community care, as it recognises the overlap that exists in those services. The proposals also give us the opportunity to push forward our agenda. The remits of the other subject committees are also sensible. However, we should strive through the Parliament to achieve, where necessary, an integrated approach. For example, the committee that considers social inclusion should examine a range of policy initiatives other than those within its specific remit. All members of committees should ensure that they are aware of the relevant work of other parts of the Parliament, of the UK Government and of the European Union. As Andrew Wilson pointed out, committees have a vital role in ensuring that the Parliament is regarded as a Parliament for all of Scotland. Committees have an essential role in encouraging the participation throughout our democracy that many of us wish to develop, and they will lead to better decision making. The Executive will have a responsibility to carry out full consultation on bills that it introduces; where committees feel that the consultation process has not been full enough, they have a key role in influencing legislation by conducting further investigations and inviting interested parties to give evidence. I spoke to many groups in my constituency of Livingston before and after the election and I know that they look forward to being involved in the work of committees and to the opportunity to influence policy. I firmly believe that the committee system that we will adopt will give members a full role in influencing and initiating legislation. It will allow an appropriate balance of power to develop between the Executive and the Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "I, too, welcome the motion submitted by Tom McCabe to establish the Parliament's committees. I regard the committees as an integral part of the way in which the Parliament will conduct its business. They will have a crucial role to play in scrutinising legislation, in involving all of civic Scotland and in giving individual members the opportunity to influence and initiate legislation.

I hope that, in establishing the committees, Parliament can start to consider the issues that concern Scotland and move away from some of the insular issues that have been debated in the

past week and will probably be debated later today. The people of Scotland expect us to start to debate the issues that really concern them: improving health; investing in education; caring for the elderly; and developing the economy. In addressing the key issues, the committees will be vital because of the links that they can build up across many of the subject areas. In particular, I welcome the link between health and community care, as it recognises the overlap that exists in those services. The proposals also give us the opportunity to push forward our agenda.

The remits of the other subject committees are also sensible. However, we should strive through the Parliament to achieve, where necessary, an integrated approach. For example, the committee that considers social inclusion should examine a range of policy initiatives other than those within its specific remit. All members of committees should ensure that they are aware of the relevant work of other parts of the Parliament, of the UK Government and of the European Union.

As Andrew Wilson pointed out, committees have a vital role in ensuring that the Parliament is regarded as a Parliament for all of Scotland. Committees have an essential role in encouraging the participation throughout our democracy that many of us wish to develop, and they will lead to better decision making. The Executive will have a responsibility to carry out full consultation on bills that it introduces; where committees feel that the consultation process has not been full enough, they have a key role in influencing legislation by conducting further investigations and inviting interested parties to give evidence. I spoke to many groups in my constituency of Livingston before and after the election and I know that they look forward to being involved in the work of committees and to the opportunity to influence policy.

I firmly believe that the committee system that we will adopt will give members a full role in influencing and initiating legislation. It will allow an appropriate balance of power to develop between the Executive and the Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C704229", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Committees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26608, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 39.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 39.0, "ID": 26608, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon (Argyll and Bute) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 69.0, "ContributionID": 704229, "EditedText": "I too welcome and support the motion. I also welcome the views of some members about the committees travelling around Scotland. On a purely personal note, I would like to put in a bid for Argyll and Bute. I am sure that Mr Russell, who is resident there, might even support me on that point. I want to turn to the important issue of the Highlands and Islands Convention. Where will it stand in relation to the new Scottish Parliament? It provides a focus for debate on issues relating to the Highlands and Islands and we should consider making it a formal committee that reports to the Parliament. We need to have a debate on where the Highlands and Islands Convention fits in and its relationship to this political institution. It is absolutely essential for issues that are important to the Highlands and Islands that the convention continues its work.", "EditedTextHTML": "I too welcome and support the motion. I also welcome the views of some members about the committees travelling around Scotland. On a purely personal note, I would like to put in a bid for Argyll and Bute. I am sure that Mr Russell, who is resident there, might even support me on that point.

I want to turn to the important issue of the Highlands and Islands Convention. Where will it stand in relation to the new Scottish Parliament? It provides a focus for debate on issues relating to the Highlands and Islands and we should consider

making it a formal committee that reports to the Parliament. We need to have a debate on where the Highlands and Islands Convention fits in and its relationship to this political institution. It is absolutely essential for issues that are important to the Highlands and Islands that the convention continues its work.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C704233", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Committees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26608, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 39.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 39.0, "ID": 26608, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 80.0, "ContributionID": 704233, "EditedText": "I call on Iain Smith to sum up the debate on the establishment of parliamentary committees.", "EditedTextHTML": "I call on Iain Smith to sum up the debate on the establishment of parliamentary committees.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1782E69P279C704243", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Oldfather, Irene", "ID": 1782, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Cunninghame South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Irene Oldfather", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Oldfather: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 103.0, "ContributionID": 704243, "EditedText": "—and his disregard for the electorate. Perhaps I could quote from the papers, because these are not the words of the Labour party, these are the words of the local people.", "EditedTextHTML": "—and his disregard for the electorate. Perhaps I could quote from the papers, because these are not the words of the Labour party, these are the words of the local people.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2038E191P344C704234", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Committees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26608, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 39.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 39.0, "ID": 26608, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Smith, Iain", "ID": 2038, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Iain Smith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Business Manager (Iain Smith): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 83.0, "ContributionID": 704234, "EditedText": "I welcome the constructive debate on the issue of committees; it is a welcome change from some of the debates that we have had in this chamber. I hope that that will be reflected in the discussions that we will have in the committees, where we will be able to examine matters in more detail away from the political hothouse that this chamber has become. As Keith Raffan said, the committees will be at the heart of this new Parliament and, as envisaged by the consultative steering group—of which you were a member, Mr Deputy Presiding Officer— they will be central to the new parliamentary procedures. It was also said that the committees will have a hybrid role. They will hold pre- legislative investigations and examine major issues. They will examine in detail the legislation that will be introduced, and they will have a very important role in holding the Executive to account. It is probably in that role that members believe that they will have most to do. Committees will allow for detailed consideration of matters that tend to get into the political soundbite arena, such as the health issues of waiting lists and waiting times, which usually result in a bit of banter between parties as to what the figures mean, or imply. Perhaps the Health and Community Care Committee will be able to examine those figures in more detail in order to decide what they mean for health care. I look forward to that committee investigating the increased waiting times that affect my constituents in North-East Fife, and I hope that the committee will take on such issues. A number of points have been raised during the debate, and I will address the issue of the location of committees first. We are all minded to support the principles behind Andrew Wilson's motion that committees should move around the country. They should not be static in Edinburgh, expecting everyone to come to Edinburgh to see them; they should visit the communities in Scotland in order to investigate the issues. I do not think that, at this stage, we should tie ourselves down to specifying how that should work. The committees themselves need to consider their programmes, the issues that they intend to address and how best they can obtain the views of the people who are affected by those issues. It should then be for the committees to make proposals about holding meetings around the country. While no one is against that principle, we need to explore certain practical issues, such as the situation where there are two committees meeting on the same day in different parts of the country and one person is a member of both. It could be a bit of a problem for a member to address both meetings, if one is in Dumfries and the other is in Inverness. We must consider those practicalities, but the principle is certainly accepted. Donald Gorrie raised a number of important issues, including the role of civil servants who support committees. We must recognise that, under existing terms, civil servants are not directly answerable to this Parliament, as they remain responsible to the ministers and to the Executive. However, we all agree that there needs to be a proper understanding of the relationships between the committees, Parliament, civil servants and ministers. I hope that civil servants will provide as much support as is needed to allow the committees to carry out their work, particularly their investigative work.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the constructive debate on the issue of committees; it is a welcome change from some of the debates that we have had in this chamber. I hope that that will be reflected in the discussions that we will have in the committees, where we will be able to examine matters in more detail away from the political hothouse that this chamber has become.

As Keith Raffan said, the committees will be at the heart of this new Parliament and, as envisaged by the consultative steering group—of which you were a member, Mr Deputy Presiding Officer— they will be central to the new parliamentary procedures. It was also said that the committees will have a hybrid role. They will hold pre- legislative investigations and examine major issues. They will examine in detail the legislation that will be introduced, and they will have a very important role in holding the Executive to account. It is probably in that role that members believe that they will have most to do.

Committees will allow for detailed consideration of matters that tend to get into the political soundbite arena, such as the health issues of waiting lists and waiting times, which usually result in a bit of banter between parties as to what the figures mean, or imply. Perhaps the Health and Community Care Committee will be able to examine those figures in more detail in order to decide what they mean for health care. I look forward to that committee investigating the increased waiting times that affect my constituents

in North-East Fife, and I hope that the committee will take on such issues.

A number of points have been raised during the debate, and I will address the issue of the location of committees first. We are all minded to support the principles behind Andrew Wilson's motion that committees should move around the country. They should not be static in Edinburgh, expecting everyone to come to Edinburgh to see them; they should visit the communities in Scotland in order to investigate the issues.

I do not think that, at this stage, we should tie ourselves down to specifying how that should work. The committees themselves need to consider their programmes, the issues that they intend to address and how best they can obtain the views of the people who are affected by those issues. It should then be for the committees to make proposals about holding meetings around the country. While no one is against that principle, we need to explore certain practical issues, such as the situation where there are two committees meeting on the same day in different parts of the country and one person is a member of both. It could be a bit of a problem for a member to address both meetings, if one is in Dumfries and the other is in Inverness. We must consider those practicalities, but the principle is certainly accepted.

Donald Gorrie raised a number of important issues, including the role of civil servants who support committees. We must recognise that, under existing terms, civil servants are not directly answerable to this Parliament, as they remain responsible to the ministers and to the Executive. However, we all agree that there needs to be a proper understanding of the relationships between the committees, Parliament, civil servants and ministers. I hope that civil servants will provide as much support as is needed to allow the committees to carry out their work, particularly their investigative work.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C704237", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Committees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26608, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 39.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 39.0, "ID": 26608, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 89.0, "ContributionID": 704237, "EditedText": "The decision time on this question is scheduled for 5 pm, but, as the first debate has finished early, we will start the next item of business now. I may exercise my power to bring forward the time of decision, in which case I will give 15 minutes' notice, but members should be aware that decision time may come earlier than 5 pm. The next item of business is the debate on motion S1M-40, in the name of Michael Russell, on members' allowances and amendments to the motion. To assist members in the debate, Mr Russell will also speak on motion S1M-41 on the provision of information technology and office equipment for the Parliament. In a moment, I will ask Mr Russell to speak on and move motion S1M-40. I will then take amendments to the motion in the order in which they appear on the revised business list. I should say at this stage that Mr Andy Kerr has withdrawn his amendment and therefore we will be debating two amendments. I will then invite other members to speak on the motion and amendments to it. Members may also wish to note that parliamentary staff, who are located at the rear of the chamber, will be available throughout the debate to provide advice on the detail of the motion on members' allowances and amendments to it. At the moment, I do not propose to set any time limit for speeches in the debate. It will be interesting to have an indication on my screen soon as to how many members wish to speak. In the meantime, I call Michael Russell to speak to motions S1M-40 and S1M-41 and formally to move S1M-40.", "EditedTextHTML": "The decision time on this question is scheduled for 5 pm, but, as the first debate has finished early, we will start the next item of business now. I may exercise my power to bring forward the time of decision, in which case I will give 15 minutes' notice, but members should be aware that decision time may come earlier than 5 pm.

The next item of business is the debate on motion S1M-40, in the name of Michael Russell, on members' allowances and amendments to the motion. To assist members in the debate, Mr Russell will also speak on motion S1M-41 on the provision of information technology and office equipment for the Parliament.

In a moment, I will ask Mr Russell to speak on and move motion S1M-40. I will then take amendments to the motion in the order in which they appear on the revised business list. I should say at this stage that Mr Andy Kerr has withdrawn his amendment and therefore we will be debating two amendments. I will then invite other members to speak on the motion and amendments to it.

Members may also wish to note that parliamentary staff, who are located at the rear of the chamber, will be available throughout the debate to provide advice on the detail of the motion on members' allowances and amendments to it.

At the moment, I do not propose to set any time limit for speeches in the debate. It will be interesting to have an indication on my screen soon as to how many members wish to speak. In the meantime, I call Michael Russell to speak to motions S1M-40 and S1M-41 and formally to move S1M-40.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C704240", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 97.0, "ContributionID": 704240, "EditedText": "This is aspeech.", "EditedTextHTML": "This is a

speech.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1782E69P279C704241", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Oldfather, Irene", "ID": 1782, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Cunninghame South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Irene Oldfather", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Oldfather: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 99.0, "ContributionID": 704241, "EditedText": "The week after the elections the local newspapers referred to him—", "EditedTextHTML": "The week after the elections the local newspapers referred to him—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C704245", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 107.0, "ContributionID": 704245, "EditedText": "I am sorry that the member for Cunninghame South could not contain herself—I was into only the second sentence of this section, so I am glad that I did not go any longer. I do not want to pay any attention to that unhelpful intervention. I refer Ms Oldfather to the point that I made at the beginning of the debate. We want to have a debate about principles, and we do not want to have that type of old politics. Let me return to the matter that I was addressing. Equality of treatment is at the heart of this motion: not equality of treatment for members, but equality of treatment for voters. By definition of the Scotland Act 1998, every member here is a constituency member. If people write to this Parliament asking who their member of the Scottish Parliament is, they get a letter back informing them that they have eight members. I received such a letter this morning, which was also copied to Mr Jack McConnell and the Parliament information office. A very senior member of the front bench put it rather well when, in a letter to Lord Neill in August 1998, he wrote, talking about the Neill committee: \"I drew the committee's attention to the additional provision we have made in the Scotland Bill for individuals to stand for election at the regional level. The position of these individuals will technically be the same as a party list, although they may in practice perceive themselves more as ‘super constituency' candidates\"— not constituency candidates, but super constituency candidates. The letter was written by Mr Henry McLeish, and he goes on to say: \"We will of course need to be able to apply expenses provided to them in a way which is seen to be fair.\" What we are trying to do is to provide a system that is fair. It is fair to say that every member will work as a constituency member. Indeed, members from lists will work over much larger constituencies—super constituencies. I could not have put it better myself. There might well be a need to provide more resources for those people. However, we are fair people—", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry that the member for Cunninghame South could not contain herself—I was into only the second sentence of this section, so I am glad that I did not go any longer. I do not want to pay any attention to that unhelpful intervention. I refer Ms Oldfather to the point that I made at the beginning of the debate. We want to have a debate about principles, and we do not want to have that type of old politics. Let me return to the matter that I was addressing.

Equality of treatment is at the heart of this motion: not equality of treatment for members, but equality of treatment for voters. By definition of the Scotland Act 1998, every member here is a constituency member. If people write to this Parliament asking who their member of the Scottish Parliament is, they get a letter back informing them that they have eight members. I received such a letter this morning, which was also copied to Mr Jack McConnell and the Parliament information office.

A very senior member of the front bench put it rather well when, in a letter to Lord Neill in August 1998, he wrote, talking about the Neill committee:

\"I drew the committee's attention to the additional provision we have made in the Scotland Bill for individuals to stand for election at the regional level. The position of these individuals will technically be the same as a party list, although they may in practice perceive themselves more as ‘super constituency' candidates\"— not constituency candidates, but super constituency candidates.

The letter was written by Mr Henry McLeish, and he goes on to say:

\"We will of course need to be able to apply expenses provided to them in a way which is seen to be fair.\"

What we are trying to do is to provide a system that is fair. It is fair to say that every member will work as a constituency member. Indeed, members from lists will work over much larger constituencies—super constituencies. I could not have put it better myself. There might well be a need to provide more resources for those people. However, we are fair people—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2100E64P254C704248", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Home Robertson, John", "ID": 2100, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Lothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "John Home Robertson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Home Robertson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 113.0, "ContributionID": 704248, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C704249", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 115.0, "ContributionID": 704249, "EditedText": "Please could I continue? I will give Mr Home Robertson a chance in a moment. I have heard three arguments against treating constituency and list members as equal. The New Zealand example is much quoted, especially by the Labour party. It is a false comparison. There are no list constituency members in New Zealand; they are national members. The German system makes no differentiation between members. The Welsh system is the same as ours, and the Labour party has now agreed that allowances should be the same for all members there. In a television debate at the weekend, I heard that it did not matter what happened in Wales, because it was important that Scotland had the freedom to do what it wanted. Even if Scotland was to get it wrong, it was important that it had that freedom. As far as I am concerned, the decision that was taken in Wales was correct. It was based on a principle that I would ask be used here. There is no allowances system in the world that is based on the interpretation by one party of what members of the other parties are likely to do. There is no allowances system in the world that is based on an interpretation of the electoral system after the vote. That simply does not work. In the circumstances, I think that both amendments are unhelpful and I would urge the movers of both amendments to withdraw them as Mr Andrew Kerr has withdrawn his. Those amendments will impede the work of this Parliament. We should encourage every member in this chamber to work as hard as possible for the people who put them here. The system that is proposed in either of those amendments will damage that. While I think that the Liberal Democrat amendment seeks to help, it is rather curious. It seems to favour parties that have only one member elected on a regional list, let alone one member elected on five regional lists. I do not think that is fair. If we are to have a debate that is honest and straightforward and of the new politics–and I sincerely hope that we will—we must address that principle. Is there a principle or not in the Liberal Democrat amendment? I do not believe that there is. We should reach the final point of agreement sothat we can have a debate that is positive and that will move us forward. We have managed to agree so much. All this motion has been agreed. It would be very good to find us agreeing at this last stage, which would take this issue out of the chamber. It would not return to the chamber and the people who put us here would be assured of being well served because we were able to do our job. I move,That the Parliament in accordance with section 81(2) of the Scotland Act 1998 (c.46), make provision for the payment of allowances to members of the Parliament and that the following provisions should have effect:There shall be a Members' Allowances Scheme (\"the Scheme\") which shall make provision to be implemented by the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body (\"the SPCB\") for the payment of allowances to members of the Parliament. The following Parts A, B and C together with the Annexes attached shall be the Scheme:\"Part A – General Rules in relation to the SchemeThe following general rules shall, unless the context otherwise requires, govern the Scheme:Rule 1 – Interpretation and commencement (1) In this Scheme\" parliamentary complex\" means the place where the Parliament or any of its committees or sub-committees meets from time to time; \"remuneration of staff\" includes gross salaries, employers' national insurance contributions and employers' pension contributions; \"main residence\" means the property in which the member is resident for council tax purposes under section 75 of the Local Government Finance Act 1992; \"other residence\" means any residence which the member owns or leases other than his or her main residence, and any reference to a Part is a reference to the Part so lettered in this Scheme and any reference to an Annex is a reference to the Annex so lettered in this Scheme. (2) This Scheme shall come into force 24 hours after the passing of the resolution giving effect to the Scheme. Rule 2 – Verifiable Expenditure (1) The SPCB may, on an application for the purpose made to it by a member in accordance with this Scheme, make payments to that member by way of allowances for the reimbursement of expenses incurred by that member. (2) Allowances for which a member is eligible shall be paid by the SPCB only upon the production to the SPCB of evidence of relevant expenditure. (3) The SPCB shall provide forms for the purposes of administering the Scheme which members shall complete and sign in order to claim the relevant allowance. Rule 3 –The Allowances Code The proper use of allowances payable under this Scheme shall be governed by the Allowances Code at Annex A. Rule 4 – Publication (1) The SPCB shall publish the following information for each financial year in respect of each member in such form as the SPCB may determine– (a) details of the allowance expenditure incurred; and (b) the names of the staff employed by the member. (2) A copy of the information published under paragraph (1) shall be kept by the Clerk at the office of the Clerk and shall be available for inspection by any person on the days and at the times when the office of the Clerk is open. Rule 5 – Enforcement (1) The SPCB shall be responsible for supervising members' adherence to the Scheme. (2) Where eligibility for any of the allowances in this Scheme is in dispute, and cannot otherwise be resolved, the matter shall be referred to the SPCB for determination. (3) Any member may make a complaint to the SPCB about another member where he or she has reason to believe that allowances under this Scheme have not been expended in accordance with the Scheme (hereinafter referred to as an improper use of allowances), and where such a complaint is made, the SPCB shall hear that complaint within one month. (4) Where the SPCB has reason to believe that a member has made an improper use of allowances or where the SPCB has received a complaint under sub-paragraph (3), the SPCB may, after raising the matter with the Business Manager of the relevant political party, initiate investigations into the matter. (5) Where the SPCB has initiated investigations in accordance with paragraph (4) and finds that a member has made an improper use of allowances, the SPCB shall report to the Standards Committee with its recommendation; and such a recommendation may propose the removal of all or part of the member's allowance. Rule 6 – Virement (1) Subject to paragraph (2) of this rule, a member shall not vire amounts between one allowance and another allowance. (2) A member may vire up to 25% of his or her local office costs allowance to use for staffing or up to 25% of his or her staff allowance to use for local office costs provided that written notice is given to the SPCB. Rule 7 – Uprating (1) Subject to paragraphs (2), (3) and (4) of this rule, the SPCB shall uprate allowances on 1 April each year by the amount of increase in the Retail Price Index for the previous financial year. (2) The SPCB shall, unless the Parliament does not agree, uprate the motor vehicle allowance in line with the maximum rate in respects of vehicles over 1199cc set for local government under section 46 of the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1973, and the uprating will become effective at the same time as it does for local government. (3) The SPCB shall uprate the motorcycle mileage allowance at the same time as and in accordance with the corresponding allowance set for staff of the Scottish Administration. (4) The SPCB shall uprate the pedal cycle mileage allowance at the same time as and in accordance with the maximum tax-free allowance set by the Treasury. Rule 8 – Parliamentary Duties (1) All of the allowances referred to in this Scheme are to be used only for the purpose of members carrying out their Parliamentary duties. (2) In this Scheme, \"Parliamentary duties\" means the undertaking of any task or function which a member could reasonably be expected to carry out in his or her capacity as a member of the Parliament including: (a) attending a meeting of the Parliament; (b) attending a meeting of a committee or sub-committee of the Parliament of which the member is a member or which the member is required to attend because of being in charge of a Bill or other matter under consideration by the committee or sub-committee or for any other valid reason relating only to the business of the committee or sub-committee; (c) undertaking research or administrative functions which relate directly to the business of the Parliament; (d) attending meetings for the purpose of representing electors or explaining the application of policy including attending meetings for the purpose of seeing a constituent or constituents; (e) attending Parliamentary party group meetings in Edinburgh; (f) attending any ceremony or official function or national or international conference as a representative of the Parliament or with its authority; but does not include a member's activities which are wholly in relation to that member's role as a Party spokesperson or representative Rule 9 – EqualityAll members shall be treated equally irrespective of whether they have been returned as constituency members or as regional members. Rule 10 – Allowances: general (1) Where a member has claimed an allowance from any other source, the member shall not be eligible to claim the same allowance under this Scheme. (2) Where a person becomes eligible for an allowance part way through the financial year, then the amount of any allowance payable under this Scheme shall be apportioned on a pro rata basis. (3) Where a person ceases to be a member part way through the financial year, the SPCB shall decide whether or not any allowance shall be apportioned on a pro rata basis. Part B – Allowances 1. Staff Allowance (1) Subject to the provisions of this paragraph, a member shall be eligible for an allowance of £36,000 for each financial year for the purpose of employing staff (whether full time or part time) to assist the member in carrying out his or her Parliamentary duties. The allowance shall include employers' costs such as gross salary, employers' National Insurance contributions and employers' pension contributions. (2) Subject to sub-paragraph (3), staff employed by a member will be employed on the terms and conditions determined by the SPCB from time to time. (3) A member may employ his or her staff on conditions which are more favourable to the employee than those determined by the SPCB provided that this does not entail the member exceeding the amount of his or her staff allowance. (4) Staff of a member shall be bound by the Allowances Code at Annex A. (5) Whilst the remuneration of staff shall be the responsibility of the member, the SPCB shall provide:( a) payroll services for members' staff; and (b) arrangements for employers' pension contributions to be paid to an employee's choice of pension scheme, and members shall provide the SPCB with details about their staff to enable the SPCB to provide such services and make such arrangements. (6) A member may pool his or her staff allowance with another member or other members in order to employ staff who are shared between or amongst them, provided that ( a) a member of staff remains the employee of a single member; and (b) the members concerned give written notice to the SPCB. 2. Local Office Costs Allowance (1) Subject to sub-paragraph (2), a member shall be eligible for an allowance of £10,000 for each financial year to enable the member, within the constituency or region from which he or she was returned – (a) to run an office; and (b) to meet with constituents either on a one to one basis or as a group. (2) Without prejudice to the generality of subparagraph (1), this allowance may be used for the following: (a) lease of a property or rental of premises; (b) the provision of utilities; (c) the purchase or lease of office furniture or equipment or the purchase of stationery. (3) Where local office costs are higher than in other parts of Scotland due to the state of the local economy, a member may refer the matter to the SPCB for its determination as to whether the member should be eligible for an allowance greater than the amount mentioned in sub-paragraph (1), but in any event no greater than 10% of that amount. 3. Members' Travel Allowance (1) A member shall be eligible for the reimbursement of travelling expenses necessarily incurred by that member in performing his or her Parliamentary duties. (2) In this paragraph – \"travelling expenses\" means – (a) the actual cost of any travel ticket purchased or fare paid in making a journey, or part of a journey, by public transport; (b) where such a journey, or any part of such a journey, is made by means of a motor vehicle, motor cycle or pedal cycle, owned or wholly maintained by the member, such amount per mile travelled on the journey, or that part of the journey, by means of that motor vehicle, motor cycle or pedal cycle as is described in subparagraphs (3) to (5); (c) in exceptional circumstances, with the approval of the SPCB, the actual cost of car hire and associated petrol costs; and (d) tolls and carparking charges; \"public transport\" means any service or services provided to the public at large for the carriage of passengers by road, rail, air or sea but includes travel by taxi service only where the use of such a service is required for reasons of urgency or where it is not reasonably practicable for the member to use other forms of public transport. (3) The rate of the motor vehicle mileage allowance will be the maximum set for local government under section 46 of the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1973 and shall apply to all motor vehicles irrespective of engine size or annual mileage. (4) The rate of the motorcycle mileage allowance will be the corresponding maximum rate set for Scottish Office employees. (5) The rate of the pedal cycle mileage allowance will be at the level of the maximum tax free allowance set by the Treasury. (6) Any travel outside Scotland shall be eligible for reimbursement only where the travel concerned has been authorised in advance by the SPCB. 4. Edinburgh Accommodation Allowance (1) Where a member's main residence lies within a constituency mentioned in Group One of Annex B, he or she shall not be eligible for any allowance under this paragraph. (2) Where a member's main residence lies within a constituency mentioned in Group Two of Annex B, the member shall be eligible for an overnight subsistence allowance of up to £80 per night for each night that he or she requires to stay overnight for Parliamentary duties in Edinburgh. (3) Where a member's main residence lies within a constituency mentioned in Group Three of Annex B, the member shall be eligible for a total allowance of £9000 for each financial year comprising either – (a) an allowance of up to £80 per night for each night that he or she requires to stay overnight for Parliamentary duties in Edinburgh; or (b) subject to sub-paragraph (4), an allowance in order to cover the costs of those items mentioned in sub-paragraph (5) below, where such costs are a necessary consequence of having to stay overnight for Parliamentary duties in Edinburgh. (4) Where the member claims an allowance under sub-paragraph (3)(b) part way through the financial year, then the amount of the allowance payable under that paragraph shall be apportioned on a pro rata basis. (5) The costs referred to in sub-paragraph (3) relate only to the provision and use as residential accommodation of a property located in the City of Edinburgh and are ( a) the rent payable for the lease of the property; (b) the interest on the capital required to purchase the property; (c) council tax; (d) factoring charges; and (e) the provision of utilities. (6) Where a member's main residence falls within Group Two of Annex B, the member may refer his or her case to the SPCB and, where there are extenuating circumstances, the SPCB may determine that the member may for the purposes of this paragraph be treated as if his or her main residence fell within Group Three of Annex B. (7) The SPCB shall publish for each financial year information about any allowance payable under this paragraph including the name of the city, town or village where each member's main residence is located . 5. Exceptional Needs Allowance (1) This paragraph applies to members from those constituencies or regions which are set out in Annex C. (2) A member shall be eligible to claim an exceptional needs allowance of up to £80 per night where it is unreasonable for the member to return to his or her main or other residence before or after undertaking Parliamentary duties within the member's constituency or region. 6. Overnight Subsistence Allowance (1) Subject to sub-paragraphs (4) and (5), a member shall be eligible for an overnight subsistence allowance where he or she requires for the purpose of carrying out his or her Parliamentary duties to spend a night away from his or her main or other residence. (2) The amount of the overnight subsistence allowance shall be:( a) up to £80 per night; or (b) up to £100 per night in Greater London; or (c) in respect of a stay outside the United Kingdom an amount determined by the SPCB. (3) Any claim for overnight subsistence in connection with a stay outside Scotland shall be eligible for reimbursement only where the stay concerned has been authorised in advance by the SPCB. (4) A member is not eligible for an allowance under this paragraph in connection with Parliamentary duties in Edinburgh. (5) A member is not eligible for an allowance under this paragraph in connection with Parliamentary duties within his or her constituency or region. 7. Staff Travel Allowance (1) This paragraph applies only to staff employed through the SPCB payroll service. (2) Each member is eligible for an allowance in respect of the cost of 40 single journeys for each financial year between their constituency or region and the Parliamentary complex by members of their staff. (3) The SPCB shall keep a record of each member's entitlement to an allowance under this paragraph and its use to date. 8. Family Travel Allowance (1) Each member is eligible for an allowance in respect of the cost of 12 single journeys for each financial year between his or her constituency, region or main residence and Edinburgh for each member of his or her immediate family. (2) In this paragraph, \"immediate family\" means ( a) the member's spouse or another nominated person; and (b) any child under the age of 18; and for the purposes of this paragraph \"child\" includes any step child, adopted child, foster child or any other child living with that member as part of his or her family. (3) The SPCB shall keep a record of each member's entitlement to an allowance under this paragraph and its use to date. (4) In order to qualify for the family travel allowance, a member must register with the SPCB who are his or her immediate family eligible to take part in the Scheme. 9. Disability Allowance (1) This paragraph applies to any member whose ability to undertake his or her role as a member is impaired by reason of disability. (2) The SPCB may award an allowance up to a maximum of £10,000 per session to a member for him or her to use in any way which the SPCB decides is helpful to the member in undertaking his or her work. 10. Winding Up Allowance (1) Where a member ceases to serve as a member of the Parliament, he or she shall be eligible for a winding up allowance. (2) The amount of the winding up allowance shall be the equivalent of one third of the staff allowance and local office costs allowance payable in any one financial year to which the member would otherwise have been entitled. Part C – Independent Review For the purposes of determining the success or otherwise of the practical operation of the Scheme, the SPCB shall, within 18 months of the coming into force of this Scheme, set up an independent review of the operation of the Scheme and following the review make recommendations to the Parliament. ANNEX AALLOWANCES CODEA: Relationships Between Members (1) Any constituent can approach any MSP within his or her constituency or region. (2) If a constituent seeks to approach a particular MSP, the constituent must be directed to that MSP by other MSPs or their staff. (3) All MSPs have a right to hold surgeries within the area for which they were returned. (4) Any constituent from outside a region who approaches an MSP with a constituency issue should be directed initially to a relevant MSP. (5) Any list MSP who raises a constituency issue should notify the relevant constituency MSP at the outset unless the consent of the constituent is withheld. (6) Any MSP who is approached by a constituent with an issue related to a reserved matter (e.g. social security) should consult with the appropriate Westminster MP. B: Offices (1) Each MSP should have one Parliamentary office base within the area for which he or she was returned that will be his or her registered local address for correspondence. (2) All MSPs' offices will be presented as ‘The Office of Ms X, Member of the Scottish Parliament' in the Parliament's colours. It should be possible to identify the party affiliation of the MSP as well, if desired. (3) Parliamentary offices may be acquired in association with political party premises, but must be a clearly definable office space. Party political material is not permitted to be externally displayed in areas occupied by the Parliamentary office. (4) Parliamentary offices should be suitable for public access. (5) MSPs will be able to use offices/locations, other than their main base, within the area for which they were returned for surgery and other purposes. C: Activities (1) Premises, or the relevant part of premises, acquired as Parliamentary offices should be used only for parliamentary activities, and not for party business. (2) During the hours that they are employed by an MSP under his or her staff allowance, an MSP's employees may not undertake any significant party political activity. (3) MSPs will be responsible to the SPCB for the activities of their staff as for their own activities. (4) Premises, or the relevant part of premises, acquired as Parliamentary offices shall not be used as a base for canvassing or election campaigning, or any party activity related to elections. (5) Parliamentary stationery and office equipment must not be used for party purposes. D: Responsibilities (1) Each MSP has a duty to ensure that he or she utilises the allowances to which he or she is eligible for the purpose for which they were intended. This includes any allowances for which he or she is eligible, but which are utilised by members of staff or immediate family. (2) Each MSP has a duty to ensure that he or she adheres to the terms of this code in spirit and in practice. ANNEX BELIGIBILITY FOR EDINBURGH ACCOMMODATION ALLOWANCES Group OneEdinburgh West Edinburgh Pentlands Edinburgh Central Edinburgh North & Leith Edinburgh South Edinburgh East & Musselburgh Linlithgow Livingston Midlothian Group TwoEast Lothian North East Fife Central Fife Kirkcaldy Dunfermline East Dunfermline West Ochil Falkirk East Falkirk West Cumbernauld & Kilsyth Airdrie & Shotts Coatbridge & Chryston Hamilton North & Bellshill Motherwell & Wishaw Hamilton South Glasgow Anniesland Glasgow Ballieston Glasgow Cathcart Glasgow Govan Glasgow Kelvin Glasgow Maryhill Glasgow Pollok Glasgow Rutherglen Glasgow Shettleston Glasgow Springburn Strathkelvin & Bearsden Paisley North Paisley South Stirling Perth Dundee East Dundee West Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale Group ThreeAberdeen Central Aberdeen North Aberdeen South Aberdeenshire West & Kincardine Angus Argyll and Bute Ayr Banff & Buchan Caithness, Sutherland & Easter Ross Carrick, Cumnock & Doon Valley Clydesdale Clydebank & Milngavie Cunninghame North Cunninghame South Dumbarton Dumfries East Kilbride Eastwood Galloway and Upper Nithsdale Gordon Greenock & Inverclyde Inverness East Nairn & Lochaber Kilmarnock & Loudon Moray Orkney Renfrewshire West Ross, Skye & Inverness West Roxburgh & Berwickshire Shetland Tayside North Western Isles ANNEX CELIGIBILITY FOR EXCEPTIONAL NEEDS ALLOWANCEA: Constituencies of over 250,000 hectares Argyll & Bute Caithness, Sutherland & Easter Ross Galloway & Upper Nithsdale Inverness East, Nairn & Lochaber North Tayside Ross, Skye and Inverness West Roxburgh & Berwickshire West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine Western Isles B: Constituencies which contain significant island communities Orkney Shetland Cunninghame North C: The largest regions Highlands & Islands North East Scotland South of Scotland\".", "EditedTextHTML": "Please could I continue? I will give Mr Home Robertson a chance in a moment.

I have heard three arguments against treating constituency and list members as equal. The New Zealand example is much quoted, especially by the Labour party. It is a false comparison. There are no list constituency members in New Zealand; they are national members. The German system makes no differentiation between members. The Welsh system is the same as ours, and the Labour party has now agreed that allowances should be the same for all members there.

In a television debate at the weekend, I heard that it did not matter what happened in Wales, because it was important that Scotland had the freedom to do what it wanted. Even if Scotland was to get it wrong, it was important that it had that freedom. As far as I am concerned, the decision that was taken in Wales was correct. It was based on a principle that I would ask be used here. There is no allowances system in the world that is based on the interpretation by one party of what members of the other parties are likely to do. There is no allowances system in the world that is based on an interpretation of the electoral system after the vote. That simply does not work.

In the circumstances, I think that both amendments are unhelpful and I would urge the movers of both amendments to withdraw them as Mr Andrew Kerr has withdrawn his. Those amendments will impede the work of this Parliament. We should encourage every member in this chamber to work as hard as possible for the people who put them here. The system that is proposed in either of those amendments will damage that.

While I think that the Liberal Democrat amendment seeks to help, it is rather curious. It seems to favour parties that have only one member elected on a regional list, let alone one member elected on five regional lists. I do not think that is fair. If we are to have a debate that is honest and straightforward and of the new politics–and I sincerely hope that we will—we must address that principle. Is there a principle or not in the Liberal Democrat amendment? I do not believe that there is.

We should reach the final point of agreement so

that we can have a debate that is positive and that will move us forward. We have managed to agree so much. All this motion has been agreed. It would be very good to find us agreeing at this last stage, which would take this issue out of the chamber. It would not return to the chamber and the people who put us here would be assured of being well served because we were able to do our job.

I move,

That the Parliament in accordance with section 81(2) of the Scotland Act 1998 (c.46), make provision for the payment of allowances to members of the Parliament and that the following provisions should have effect:

There shall be a Members' Allowances Scheme (\"the Scheme\") which shall make provision to be implemented by the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body (\"the SPCB\") for the payment of allowances to members of the Parliament.

The following Parts A, B and C together with the Annexes attached shall be the Scheme:

\"Part A – General Rules in relation to the Scheme

The following general rules shall, unless the context otherwise requires, govern the Scheme:

Rule 1 – Interpretation and commencement (1) In this Scheme\" parliamentary complex\" means the place where the Parliament or any of its committees or sub-committees meets from time to time;

\"remuneration of staff\" includes gross salaries, employers' national insurance contributions and employers' pension contributions;

\"main residence\" means the property in which the member is resident for council tax purposes under section 75 of the Local Government Finance Act 1992;

\"other residence\" means any residence which the member owns or leases other than his or her main residence, and any reference to a Part is a reference to the Part so lettered in this Scheme and any reference to an Annex is a reference to the Annex so lettered in this Scheme. (2) This Scheme shall come into force 24 hours after the passing of the resolution giving effect to the Scheme. Rule 2 – Verifiable Expenditure (1) The SPCB may, on an application for the purpose made to it by a member in accordance with this Scheme, make payments to that member by way of allowances for the reimbursement of expenses incurred by that member. (2) Allowances for which a member is eligible shall be paid by the SPCB only upon the production to the SPCB of evidence of relevant expenditure. (3) The SPCB shall provide forms for the purposes of administering the Scheme which members shall complete and sign in order to claim the relevant allowance. Rule 3 –The Allowances Code

The proper use of allowances payable under this Scheme shall be governed by the Allowances Code at Annex A.

Rule 4 – Publication (1) The SPCB shall publish the following information for each financial year in respect of each member in such form as the SPCB may determine– (a) details of the allowance expenditure incurred; and (b) the names of the staff employed by the member. (2) A copy of the information published under paragraph (1) shall be kept by the Clerk at the office of the Clerk and shall be available for inspection by any person on the days and at the times when the office of the Clerk is open. Rule 5 – Enforcement (1) The SPCB shall be responsible for supervising members' adherence to the Scheme. (2) Where eligibility for any of the allowances in this Scheme is in dispute, and cannot otherwise be resolved, the matter shall be referred to the SPCB for determination. (3) Any member may make a complaint to the SPCB about another member where he or she has reason to believe that allowances under this Scheme have not been expended in accordance with the Scheme (hereinafter referred to as an improper use of allowances), and where such a complaint is made, the SPCB shall hear that complaint within one month. (4) Where the SPCB has reason to believe that a member has made an improper use of allowances or where the SPCB has received a complaint under sub-paragraph (3), the SPCB may, after raising the matter with the Business Manager of the relevant political party, initiate investigations into the matter. (5) Where the SPCB has initiated investigations in accordance with paragraph (4) and finds that a member has made an improper use of allowances, the SPCB shall report to the Standards Committee with its recommendation; and such a recommendation may propose the removal of all or part of the member's allowance. Rule 6 – Virement (1) Subject to paragraph (2) of this rule, a member shall not vire amounts between one allowance and another allowance. (2) A member may vire up to 25% of his or her local office costs allowance to use for staffing or up to 25% of his or her staff allowance to use for local office costs provided that written notice is given to the SPCB. Rule 7 – Uprating (1) Subject to paragraphs (2), (3) and (4) of this rule, the SPCB shall uprate allowances on 1 April each year by the amount of increase in the Retail Price Index for the previous financial year. (2) The SPCB shall, unless the Parliament does not agree, uprate the motor vehicle allowance in line with the maximum rate in respects of vehicles over 1199cc set for local government under section 46 of the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1973, and the uprating will become effective at the same time as it does for local government. (3) The SPCB shall uprate the motorcycle mileage allowance at the same time as and in accordance with the corresponding allowance set for staff of the Scottish Administration. (4) The SPCB shall uprate the pedal cycle mileage allowance at the same time as and in accordance with the maximum tax-free allowance set by the Treasury. Rule 8 – Parliamentary Duties (1) All of the allowances referred to in this Scheme are to be used only for the purpose of members carrying out their Parliamentary duties. (2) In this Scheme, \"Parliamentary duties\" means the undertaking of any task or function which a member could reasonably be expected to carry out in his or her capacity as a member of the Parliament including: (a) attending a meeting of the Parliament; (b) attending a meeting of a committee or sub-committee of the Parliament of which the member is a member or which the member is required to attend because of being in charge of a Bill or other matter under consideration by the committee or sub-committee or for any other valid reason relating only to the business of the committee or sub-committee; (c) undertaking research or administrative functions which relate directly to the business of the Parliament; (d) attending meetings for the purpose of representing electors or explaining the application of policy including attending meetings for the purpose of seeing a constituent or constituents; (e) attending Parliamentary party group meetings in Edinburgh; (f) attending any ceremony or official function or national or international conference as a representative of the Parliament or with its authority; but does not include a member's activities which are wholly in relation to that member's role as a Party spokesperson or representative

Rule 9 – Equality

All members shall be treated equally irrespective of whether they have been returned as constituency members or as regional members.

Rule 10 – Allowances: general (1) Where a member has claimed an allowance from any other source, the member shall not be eligible to claim the same allowance under this Scheme. (2) Where a person becomes eligible for an allowance part way through the financial year, then the amount of any allowance payable under this Scheme shall be apportioned on a pro rata basis. (3) Where a person ceases to be a member part way through the financial year, the SPCB shall decide whether or not any allowance shall be apportioned on a pro rata basis. Part B – Allowances

1. Staff Allowance (1) Subject to the provisions of this paragraph, a member shall be eligible for an allowance of £36,000 for each financial year for the purpose of employing staff (whether full time or part time) to assist the member in carrying out his or her Parliamentary duties. The allowance shall include employers' costs such as gross salary, employers' National Insurance contributions and employers' pension contributions. (2) Subject to sub-paragraph (3), staff employed by a member will be employed on the terms and conditions determined by the SPCB from time to time. (3) A member may employ his or her staff on conditions which are more favourable to the employee than those determined by the SPCB provided that this does not entail the member exceeding the amount of his or her staff allowance. (4) Staff of a member shall be bound by the Allowances Code at Annex A. (5) Whilst the remuneration of staff shall be the responsibility of the member, the SPCB shall provide:( a) payroll services for members' staff; and (b) arrangements for employers' pension contributions to be paid to an employee's choice of pension scheme, and members shall provide the SPCB with details about their staff to enable the SPCB to provide such services and make such arrangements. (6) A member may pool his or her staff allowance with another member or other members in order to employ staff who are shared between or amongst them, provided that ( a) a member of staff remains the employee of a single member; and (b) the members concerned give written notice to the SPCB. 2. Local Office Costs Allowance (1) Subject to sub-paragraph (2), a member shall be eligible for an allowance of £10,000 for each financial year to enable the member, within the constituency or region from which he or she was returned – (a) to run an office; and (b) to meet with constituents either on a one to one basis or as a group. (2) Without prejudice to the generality of subparagraph (1), this allowance may be used for the following: (a) lease of a property or rental of premises; (b) the provision of utilities; (c) the purchase or lease of office furniture or equipment or the purchase of stationery. (3) Where local office costs are higher than in other parts of Scotland due to the state of the local economy, a member may refer the matter to the SPCB for its determination as to whether the member should be eligible for an allowance greater than the amount mentioned in sub-paragraph (1), but in any event no greater than 10% of that amount. 3. Members' Travel Allowance (1) A member shall be eligible for the reimbursement of travelling expenses necessarily incurred by that member in performing his or her Parliamentary duties. (2) In this paragraph – \"travelling expenses\" means – (a) the actual cost of any travel ticket purchased or fare paid in making a journey, or part of a journey, by public transport; (b) where such a journey, or any part of such a journey, is made by means of a motor vehicle, motor cycle or pedal cycle, owned or wholly maintained by the member, such amount per mile travelled on the journey, or that part of the journey, by means of that motor vehicle, motor cycle or pedal cycle as is described in subparagraphs (3) to (5); (c) in exceptional circumstances, with the approval of the SPCB, the actual cost of car hire and associated petrol costs; and (d) tolls and carparking charges; \"public transport\" means any service or services provided to the public at large for the carriage of passengers by road, rail, air or sea but includes travel by taxi service only where the use of such a service is required for reasons of urgency or where it is not reasonably practicable for the member to use other forms of public transport. (3) The rate of the motor vehicle mileage allowance will be the maximum set for local government under section 46 of the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1973 and shall apply to all motor vehicles irrespective of engine size or annual mileage. (4) The rate of the motorcycle mileage allowance will be the corresponding maximum rate set for Scottish Office employees. (5) The rate of the pedal cycle mileage allowance will be at the level of the maximum tax free allowance set by the Treasury. (6) Any travel outside Scotland shall be eligible for reimbursement only where the travel concerned has been authorised in advance by the SPCB. 4. Edinburgh Accommodation Allowance (1) Where a member's main residence lies within a constituency mentioned in Group One of Annex B, he or she shall not be eligible for any allowance under this paragraph. (2) Where a member's main residence lies within a constituency mentioned in Group Two of Annex B, the member shall be eligible for an overnight subsistence allowance of up to £80 per night for each night that he or she requires to stay overnight for Parliamentary duties in Edinburgh. (3) Where a member's main residence lies within a constituency mentioned in Group Three of Annex B, the member shall be eligible for a total allowance of £9000 for each financial year comprising either – (a) an allowance of up to £80 per night for each night that he or she requires to stay overnight for Parliamentary duties in Edinburgh; or (b) subject to sub-paragraph (4), an allowance in order to cover the costs of those items mentioned in sub-paragraph (5) below, where such costs are a necessary consequence of having to stay overnight for Parliamentary duties in Edinburgh. (4) Where the member claims an allowance under sub-paragraph (3)(b) part way through the financial year, then the amount of the allowance payable under that paragraph shall be apportioned on a pro rata basis. (5) The costs referred to in sub-paragraph (3) relate only to the provision and use as residential accommodation of a property located in the City of Edinburgh and are ( a) the rent payable for the lease of the property; (b) the interest on the capital required to purchase the property; (c) council tax; (d) factoring charges; and (e) the provision of utilities. (6) Where a member's main residence falls within Group Two of Annex B, the member may refer his or her case to the SPCB and, where there are extenuating circumstances, the SPCB may determine that the member may for the purposes of this paragraph be treated as if his or her main residence fell within Group Three of Annex B. (7) The SPCB shall publish for each financial year information about any allowance payable under this paragraph including the name of the city, town or village where each member's main residence is located .

5. Exceptional Needs Allowance (1) This paragraph applies to members from those constituencies or regions which are set out in Annex C. (2) A member shall be eligible to claim an exceptional needs allowance of up to £80 per night where it is unreasonable for the member to return to his or her main or other residence before or after undertaking Parliamentary duties within the member's constituency or region. 6. Overnight Subsistence Allowance (1) Subject to sub-paragraphs (4) and (5), a member shall be eligible for an overnight subsistence allowance where he or she requires for the purpose of carrying out his or her Parliamentary duties to spend a night away from his or her main or other residence. (2) The amount of the overnight subsistence allowance shall be:( a) up to £80 per night; or (b) up to £100 per night in Greater London; or (c) in respect of a stay outside the United Kingdom an amount determined by the SPCB. (3) Any claim for overnight subsistence in connection with a stay outside Scotland shall be eligible for reimbursement only where the stay concerned has been authorised in advance by the SPCB. (4) A member is not eligible for an allowance under this paragraph in connection with Parliamentary duties in Edinburgh. (5) A member is not eligible for an allowance under this paragraph in connection with Parliamentary duties within his or her constituency or region. 7. Staff Travel Allowance (1) This paragraph applies only to staff employed through the SPCB payroll service. (2) Each member is eligible for an allowance in respect of the cost of 40 single journeys for each financial year between their constituency or region and the Parliamentary complex by members of their staff. (3) The SPCB shall keep a record of each member's entitlement to an allowance under this paragraph and its use to date. 8. Family Travel Allowance (1) Each member is eligible for an allowance in respect of the cost of 12 single journeys for each financial year between his or her constituency, region or main residence and Edinburgh for each member of his or her immediate family. (2) In this paragraph, \"immediate family\" means ( a) the member's spouse or another nominated person; and (b) any child under the age of 18; and for the purposes of this paragraph \"child\" includes any step child, adopted child, foster child or any other child living with that member as part of his or her family. (3) The SPCB shall keep a record of each member's entitlement to an allowance under this paragraph and its use to date. (4) In order to qualify for the family travel allowance, a member must register with the SPCB who are his or her immediate family eligible to take part in the Scheme. 9. Disability Allowance (1) This paragraph applies to any member whose ability to undertake his or her role as a member is impaired by reason of disability. (2) The SPCB may award an allowance up to a maximum of £10,000 per session to a member for him or her to use in any way which the SPCB decides is helpful to the member in undertaking his or her work. 10. Winding Up Allowance (1) Where a member ceases to serve as a member of the Parliament, he or she shall be eligible for a winding up allowance. (2) The amount of the winding up allowance shall be the equivalent of one third of the staff allowance and local office costs allowance payable in any one financial year to which the member would otherwise have been entitled. Part C – Independent Review

For the purposes of determining the success or otherwise of the practical operation of the Scheme, the SPCB shall, within 18 months of the coming into force of this Scheme, set up an independent review of the operation of the Scheme and following the review make recommendations to the Parliament.

ANNEX A

ALLOWANCES CODE

A: Relationships Between Members (1) Any constituent can approach any MSP within his or her constituency or region. (2) If a constituent seeks to approach a particular MSP, the constituent must be directed to that MSP by other MSPs or their staff. (3) All MSPs have a right to hold surgeries within the area for which they were returned. (4) Any constituent from outside a region who approaches an MSP with a constituency issue should be directed initially to a relevant MSP. (5) Any list MSP who raises a constituency issue should notify the relevant constituency MSP at the outset unless the consent of the constituent is withheld. (6) Any MSP who is approached by a constituent with an issue related to a reserved matter (e.g. social security) should consult with the appropriate Westminster MP.

B: Offices (1) Each MSP should have one Parliamentary office base within the area for which he or she was returned that will be his or her registered local address for correspondence. (2) All MSPs' offices will be presented as ‘The Office of Ms X, Member of the Scottish Parliament' in the Parliament's colours. It should be possible to identify the party affiliation of the MSP as well, if desired. (3) Parliamentary offices may be acquired in association with political party premises, but must be a clearly definable office space. Party political material is not permitted to be externally displayed in areas occupied by the Parliamentary office. (4) Parliamentary offices should be suitable for public access. (5) MSPs will be able to use offices/locations, other than their main base, within the area for which they were returned for surgery and other purposes.

C: Activities (1) Premises, or the relevant part of premises, acquired as Parliamentary offices should be used only for parliamentary activities, and not for party business. (2) During the hours that they are employed by an MSP under his or her staff allowance, an MSP's employees may not undertake any significant party political activity. (3) MSPs will be responsible to the SPCB for the activities of their staff as for their own activities. (4) Premises, or the relevant part of premises, acquired as Parliamentary offices shall not be used as a base for canvassing or election campaigning, or any party activity related to elections. (5) Parliamentary stationery and office equipment must not be used for party purposes.

D: Responsibilities (1) Each MSP has a duty to ensure that he or she utilises the allowances to which he or she is eligible for the purpose for which they were intended. This includes any allowances for which he or she is eligible, but which are utilised by members of staff or immediate family. (2) Each MSP has a duty to ensure that he or she adheres to the terms of this code in spirit and in practice.

ANNEX B

ELIGIBILITY FOR EDINBURGH ACCOMMODATION ALLOWANCES

Group One

Edinburgh West Edinburgh Pentlands Edinburgh Central Edinburgh North & Leith Edinburgh South Edinburgh East & Musselburgh Linlithgow Livingston Midlothian

Group Two

East Lothian North East Fife Central Fife Kirkcaldy Dunfermline East Dunfermline West Ochil Falkirk East Falkirk West Cumbernauld & Kilsyth Airdrie & Shotts Coatbridge & Chryston Hamilton North & Bellshill Motherwell & Wishaw Hamilton South

Glasgow Anniesland Glasgow Ballieston Glasgow Cathcart Glasgow Govan Glasgow Kelvin Glasgow Maryhill Glasgow Pollok Glasgow Rutherglen Glasgow Shettleston Glasgow Springburn

Strathkelvin & Bearsden Paisley North Paisley South

Stirling Perth Dundee East Dundee West Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale

Group Three

Aberdeen Central Aberdeen North Aberdeen South Aberdeenshire West & Kincardine Angus Argyll and Bute Ayr Banff & Buchan Caithness, Sutherland & Easter Ross Carrick, Cumnock & Doon Valley Clydesdale Clydebank & Milngavie Cunninghame North Cunninghame South Dumbarton Dumfries East Kilbride

Eastwood Galloway and Upper Nithsdale Gordon Greenock & Inverclyde Inverness East Nairn & Lochaber Kilmarnock & Loudon Moray Orkney Renfrewshire West Ross, Skye & Inverness West Roxburgh & Berwickshire Shetland Tayside North Western Isles

ANNEX C

ELIGIBILITY FOR EXCEPTIONAL NEEDS ALLOWANCE

A: Constituencies of over 250,000 hectares Argyll & Bute Caithness, Sutherland & Easter Ross Galloway & Upper Nithsdale Inverness East, Nairn & Lochaber North Tayside Ross, Skye and Inverness West Roxburgh & Berwickshire West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine Western Isles

B: Constituencies which contain significant island communities Orkney Shetland Cunninghame North

C: The largest regions Highlands & Islands North East Scotland South of Scotland\".

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1805E13P109C704258", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Whitefield, Karen", "ID": 1805, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Airdrie and Shotts" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Karen Whitefield", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Karen Whitefield: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 134.0, "ContributionID": 704258, "EditedText": "During the election campaign, I made promises, of which one of the most important was that I would ensure that our Parliament would legislate fairly.", "EditedTextHTML": "During the election campaign, I made promises, of which one of the most important was that I would ensure that our Parliament would legislate fairly.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C704267", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 155.0, "ContributionID": 704267, "EditedText": "Yes.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1820E139P227C704269", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Curran, Margaret", "ID": 1820, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Baillieston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Curran", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Margaret Curran (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 159.0, "ContributionID": 704269, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1837E108P186C704277", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mulligan, Mary", "ID": 1837, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Linlithgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Mulligan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Mulligan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 176.0, "ContributionID": 704277, "EditedText": "No, I will not.This Parliament will draft legislation, monitor the effect of that legislation and question the Executive. There will be plenty of work for everyone. Suggesting that that is the role of list members does not downgrade that role, but recognises the difference between the contributions that are made. Only last week, Mr Salmond said that \"one of the duties of members of this Parliament is to hold the Executive to account and to ask questions of the relevant ministers. That is only part of a member's duties, but it is every bit as important as being in the constituency and carrying out constituency work.\"—Official Report, 19 May 1999; Vol 1, c 146. I agree. There is a role for constituency and list MSPs—but the role is slightly different. There is no question of there being two classes of MSP, which is what has been suggested.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I will not.

This Parliament will draft legislation, monitor the effect of that legislation and question the Executive. There will be plenty of work for everyone. Suggesting that that is the role of list members does not downgrade that role, but recognises the difference between the contributions that are made. Only last week, Mr Salmond said that

\"one of the duties of members of this Parliament is to hold the Executive to account and to ask questions of the relevant ministers. That is only part of a member's duties, but it is every bit as important as being in the constituency and carrying out constituency work.\"—[Official Report, 19 May 1999; Vol 1, c 146.]

I agree. There is a role for constituency and list MSPs—but the role is slightly different. There is no question of there being two classes of MSP, which is what has been suggested.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1837E108P186C704279", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mulligan, Mary", "ID": 1837, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Linlithgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Mulligan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Mulligan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 180.0, "ContributionID": 704279, "EditedText": "No, I am just coming to the end of my speech. We must spend taxpayers' money responsibly. Unnecessary duplication is a waste of money that could be spent elsewhere. This debate does the Parliament some damage. It looks like we are just arguing in our own interests. If the real need for the money is to enable members to work for constituents, that can be explained to the public, who will recognise the benefit of ensuring that members who are doing the most constituency work will receive the allowance for it.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I am just coming to the end of my speech.

We must spend taxpayers' money responsibly. Unnecessary duplication is a waste of money that could be spent elsewhere.

This debate does the Parliament some damage. It looks like we are just arguing in our own interests. If the real need for the money is to enable members to work for constituents, that can be explained to the public, who will recognise the benefit of ensuring that members who are doing the most constituency work will receive the allowance for it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2056E57P84C704281", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James", "ID": 2056, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "James Douglas-Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Lord James Douglas-Hamilton (Lothians) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 185.0, "ContributionID": 704281, "EditedText": "In that case, I will be brief. Mrs Margaret Smith is absolutely right to say that we should get on with the really important issues, but the arrangements that we are debating must obviously be put in place as quickly as possible. In the Parliamentary Bureau, which is the committee that considers these issues and of which I am a member, there was agreement on the requirements, which can be summed up in four words: openness, accountability, accessibility and efficiency. There was disagreement about whether list MSPs should be given parity with first-past-thepost MSPs. That happens in the Welsh Assembly—where the Labour leader, Alun Michael, is a list AM. We believe that there are strong arguments for parity and are supported in that view by no less a person than Scotland's First Minister, Mr Donald Dewar. On 25 March 1998, he wrote a letter to the Senior Salaries Review Body on the subject of salaries and allowances. He wrote: \"In considering these matters, no distinction is to be made between the salaries etc of members of the Scottish Parliament elected under the normal constituency system and those elected under the regional additional member system\". Read in context, it is quite clear that his letter related to allowances as well as to salaries. It cannot be dismissed as mere election rhetoric. The Senior Salaries Review Body said in its summary of its response: \"Members of the devolved bodies would require the equivalent of two full-time staff\"— and that \"there are other office-related costs to be covered, such as the rent of constituency offices or the hire of rooms for surgeries. We recommend that Members may make vouched claims against an annual allowance.\" It made no distinction whatever between different types of members of Parliament and it had been told not to make any. Mr Henry McLeish was quoted in The Scotsman as saying that it would be a pity if we created two tiers of MSP and that a two-tier system would be a backward step. I believe that the case that is advanced on behalf of New Zealand misses the essential point that Mr Michael Russell picked up: that list MPs there do not have individual constituencies. In this country they most certainly do. We should aim for parity, which is why the motion provides for local office costs allowances as well as for exceptional needs. The justification for local office costs is that list MSPs represent a huge area; for example, South of Scotland is approaching the size of Wales, stretching from Prestwick airport in the west to the fishing harbour of Eyemouth on the east coast. Several offices will be necessary in a regional constituency of that size if the job is to be done to high standards. The same considerations apply to the Highlands and Islands and North-East Scotland constituencies. A positive decision on the motion would ensure that regional MSPs are able to give an excellent service. The test that should be applied must be what will give the best possible service to constituents throughout Scotland. If the motion succeeds, when the services of Scotland's 56 list MSPs are weighed in the balance, they will not be found wanting. I commend the motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "In that case, I will be brief. Mrs Margaret Smith is absolutely right to say that we should get on with the really important issues, but the arrangements that we are debating must obviously be put in place as quickly as possible.

In the Parliamentary Bureau, which is the committee that considers these issues and of which I am a member, there was agreement on the requirements, which can be summed up in four words: openness, accountability, accessibility and efficiency. There was disagreement about whether list MSPs should be given parity with first-past-thepost MSPs. That happens in the Welsh Assembly—where the Labour leader, Alun Michael, is a list AM.

We believe that there are strong arguments for parity and are supported in that view by no less a person than Scotland's First Minister, Mr Donald Dewar. On 25 March 1998, he wrote a letter to the Senior Salaries Review Body on the subject of salaries and allowances. He wrote:

\"In considering these matters, no distinction is to be made between the salaries etc of members of the Scottish Parliament elected under the normal constituency system and those elected under the regional additional member system\".

Read in context, it is quite clear that his letter related to allowances as well as to salaries. It cannot be dismissed as mere election rhetoric.

The Senior Salaries Review Body said in its summary of its response:

\"Members of the devolved bodies would require the equivalent of two full-time staff\"— and that

\"there are other office-related costs to be covered, such as the rent of constituency offices or the hire of rooms for surgeries. We recommend that Members may make vouched claims against an annual allowance.\"

It made no distinction whatever between different types of members of Parliament and it had been told not to make any.

Mr Henry McLeish was quoted in The Scotsman as saying that it would be a pity if we created two tiers of MSP and that a two-tier system would be a backward step.

I believe that the case that is advanced on behalf of New Zealand misses the essential point that Mr Michael Russell picked up: that list MPs there do not have individual constituencies. In this country they most certainly do. We should aim for parity, which is why the motion provides for local office costs allowances as well as for exceptional needs. The justification for local office costs is that list MSPs represent a huge area; for example, South of Scotland is approaching the size of Wales, stretching from Prestwick airport in the west to the fishing harbour of Eyemouth on the east coast. Several offices will be necessary in a regional constituency of that size if the job is to be done to high standards. The same considerations apply to the Highlands and Islands and North-East Scotland constituencies.

A positive decision on the motion would ensure that regional MSPs are able to give an excellent service. The test that should be applied must be what will give the best possible service to constituents throughout Scotland. If the motion succeeds, when the services of Scotland's 56 list

MSPs are weighed in the balance, they will not be found wanting. I commend the motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C704283", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr David Davidson (North-East Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 191.0, "ContributionID": 704283, "EditedText": "It is difficult to enter a debate late and still try to bring something fresh to it, but I shall try to answer some of the points that have been raised. I point out to Karen Whitefield that I am aware of the problems in Airdrie. I worked and had an office there for several years. We should not, however, be too parochial when we are discussing a global issue, so that we can get on with the job. I am concerned that people seem to interpret equality and parity differently. Today we must talk about the future, and about the foundation of the workings of this Parliament. All of us here today— and those who I note are missing—share equal responsibility for the good governance of Scotland. That is a tremendous honour, privilege and responsibility. I point out, as have others, that regional members have huge areas to cover, with large populations. In common with Tricia Marwick, I have had pieces of information and bits of requests from all over the north-east. Last week, I received something from Macduff on the north coast and something from Dundee on the Tay. I shall follow up those communications. People recognise the role that we play, and will come to us for our different expertise. If somebody in the Labour party says that they cannot speak to the person of their choice, I suspect that that party has forgotten what democracy is about. Today's issue is democracy—choice for the people of Scotland. It is by their choice that we are here, and we are here to serve them. If we receive a call in the middle of the night, it is our duty to respond immediately, not to take it through the office and get back to the person in three weeks' time because we are not allowed expenses to respond straight away. That would be nonsense. If we are to talk about responsibility, we should move forward and get on with the job. All sorts of snide comments have been made on various issues. Someone suggested that we should consider the expenses of Westminster members, but that is for Westminster to decide. Mr McConnell declares openly that he wants to share office accommodation with a Westminster member. If he is looking for a saving, perhaps he should consider the public purse and offer not to take some of the money himself. It is hypocrisy to play one game against the other. Let us be decent and move away from this petty subject, accepting that we are here because the people of Scotland wanted us here. It is our duty and responsibility to work for them, and everybody in this Parliament should be entitled to the support that they need to do the job.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is difficult to enter a debate late and still try to bring something fresh to it, but I shall try to answer some of the points that have been raised. I point out to Karen Whitefield that I am aware of the problems in Airdrie. I worked and had an office there for several years. We should not, however, be too parochial when we are discussing a global issue, so that we can get on with the job.

I am concerned that people seem to interpret equality and parity differently. Today we must talk about the future, and about the foundation of the workings of this Parliament. All of us here today— and those who I note are missing—share equal responsibility for the good governance of Scotland. That is a tremendous honour, privilege and responsibility.

I point out, as have others, that regional members have huge areas to cover, with large populations. In common with Tricia Marwick, I have had pieces of information and bits of requests from all over the north-east. Last week, I received something from Macduff on the north coast and something from Dundee on the Tay. I shall follow up those communications. People recognise the role that we play, and will come to us for our different expertise. If somebody in the Labour party says that they cannot speak to the person of their choice, I suspect that that party has forgotten what democracy is about.

Today's issue is democracy—choice for the people of Scotland. It is by their choice that we are here, and we are here to serve them. If we receive a call in the middle of the night, it is our duty to respond immediately, not to take it through the office and get back to the person in three weeks' time because we are not allowed expenses to respond straight away. That would be nonsense. If we are to talk about responsibility, we should move forward and get on with the job.

All sorts of snide comments have been made on various issues. Someone suggested that we should consider the expenses of Westminster members, but that is for Westminster to decide.

Mr McConnell declares openly that he wants to share office accommodation with a Westminster member. If he is looking for a saving, perhaps he should consider the public purse and offer not to take some of the money himself. It is hypocrisy to play one game against the other. Let us be decent and move away from this petty subject, accepting that we are here because the people of Scotland wanted us here. It is our duty and responsibility to work for them, and everybody in this Parliament should be entitled to the support that they need to do the job.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C704285", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Finance (Mr Jack McConnell): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 197.0, "ContributionID": 704285, "EditedText": "I shall speak in favour of amendment S1M-40.1 and comment on some of the issues that have been raised in the debate. It is an honour to speak in the chamber as the member of the Scottish Parliament for Motherwell and Wishaw. During the next four years, every time I help someone in my constituency I will do it with the same pride that I felt on the day we opened this new Parliament for the first time in 300 years. I will always regard my constituency duties as my first and No 1 priority as a member of the Scottish Parliament, but it is also an honour to be the Minister for Finance, to manage the money for which Parliament is responsible and to ensure that it is spent on the people's priorities in a way that will continue the good work that has been done by the Labour Government since 1997. The Labour party has made it clear that we are reducing tax for working people, for people on lower pay and for businesses here in Scotland. At the same time, we are spending more on education, on health, on jobs for young people and on the other priorities of the people of Scotland. Labour is the party that can be trusted on tax, because it spends money on those priorities. We have made a genuine attempt to reach an accommodation on members' allowances with the other parties.", "EditedTextHTML": "I shall speak in favour of amendment S1M-40.1 and comment on some of the issues that have been raised in the debate. It is an honour to speak in the chamber as the member of the Scottish Parliament for Motherwell and Wishaw. During the next four years, every time I help someone in my constituency I will do it with the same pride that I felt on the day we opened this new Parliament for the first time in 300 years.

I will always regard my constituency duties as my first and No 1 priority as a member of the Scottish Parliament, but it is also an honour to be the Minister for Finance, to manage the money for which Parliament is responsible and to ensure that it is spent on the people's priorities in a way that will continue the good work that has been done by the Labour Government since 1997.

The Labour party has made it clear that we are reducing tax for working people, for people on lower pay and for businesses here in Scotland. At the same time, we are spending more on education, on health, on jobs for young people and on the other priorities of the people of Scotland. Labour is the party that can be trusted on tax, because it spends money on those priorities.

We have made a genuine attempt to reach an accommodation on members' allowances with the other parties.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C704288", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 203.0, "ContributionID": 704288, "EditedText": "Will Mr McConnell give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr McConnell give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2099E29P51C704297", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Young, John", "ID": 2099, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Young", "SpeakerDisplayName": "John Young (West of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 223.0, "ContributionID": 704297, "EditedText": "While I have been sitting here, I could not help thinking about the proud boasts of both the Labour party and the Liberal Democrats about their stand on what happened in places such as South Africa; in other words, on apartheid. Yet this afternoon we are getting a type of political apartheid.", "EditedTextHTML": "While I have been sitting here, I could not help thinking about the proud boasts of both the Labour party and the Liberal Democrats about their stand on what happened in places such as South Africa; in other words, on apartheid. Yet this afternoon we are getting a type of political apartheid.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1782E69P279C704304", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Oldfather, Irene", "ID": 1782, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Cunninghame South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Irene Oldfather", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Irene Oldfather (Cunninghame South) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 238.0, "ContributionID": 704304, "EditedText": "I am pleased to have the opportunity to make the comments that I had hoped to make earlier. I apologise for being a little bit parochial, but I find it ironic, under the circumstances, that Mr Russell is leading the debate. The issue is not about two tiers of MSPs; MSPs are paid equally and they are equal. The people have a right to be represented and they will be represented by their constituency MSPs, the members whom they elected directly. Mr Russell was rejected by the voters of Cunninghame South and sometimes I—", "EditedTextHTML": "I am pleased to have the opportunity to make the comments that I had hoped to make earlier. I apologise for being a little bit parochial, but I find it ironic, under the circumstances, that Mr Russell is leading the debate. The issue is not about two tiers of MSPs; MSPs are paid equally and they are equal. The people have a right to be represented and they will be represented by their constituency MSPs, the members whom they elected directly. Mr Russell was rejected by the voters of Cunninghame South and sometimes I—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1782E69P279C704306", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Oldfather, Irene", "ID": 1782, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Cunninghame South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Irene Oldfather", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Oldfather: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 242.0, "ContributionID": 704306, "EditedText": "No, I have waited a while to make my comments and I should like the opportunity to do so. Quite frankly, it is not credible that constituents from my area in Irvine will travel across the South of Scotland to wherever Mr Russell chooses to set up his office, for example in Hawick, to visit him when they could come to see me in Irvine. I do not want to hurt Mr Russell's feelings, because I know that he is a sensitive chap, but I am absolutely delighted that he has had his road to Damascus conversion and now has a deep desire to visit and represent Cunninghame South. I believe in road to Damascus conversions, but they do not normally have a price tag attached to them. The electorate, especially in Cunninghame South, will be deeply suspicious of a list MSP who showed scant regard for them during the campaign but now wants money to set up an office in the opposite part of the constituency. Local feeling on the matter is running high and that is reflected by an opinion column in the local newspaper, the Irvine Herald, a paper that is not known for favouring the Labour party.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I have waited a while to make my comments and I should like the opportunity to do so.

Quite frankly, it is not credible that constituents from my area in Irvine will travel across the South of Scotland to wherever Mr Russell chooses to set up his office, for example in Hawick, to visit him

when they could come to see me in Irvine. I do not want to hurt Mr Russell's feelings, because I know that he is a sensitive chap, but I am absolutely delighted that he has had his road to Damascus conversion and now has a deep desire to visit and represent Cunninghame South. I believe in road to Damascus conversions, but they do not normally have a price tag attached to them.

The electorate, especially in Cunninghame South, will be deeply suspicious of a list MSP who showed scant regard for them during the campaign but now wants money to set up an office in the opposite part of the constituency. Local feeling on the matter is running high and that is reflected by an opinion column in the local newspaper, the Irvine Herald, a paper that is not known for favouring the Labour party.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2185E120P328C704313", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Brown, Robert", "ID": 2185, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robert Brown", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robert Brown: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 257.0, "ContributionID": 704313, "EditedText": "No, I will not give way. The lateness of the Labour proposals meant that it was difficult for us to address what may have been a legitimate Labour point of view. The people of Scotland want this Parliament to get on with its business. In the interests of the people of Scotland, let us accept the Liberal Democrat amendment and get on with the business of the Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I will not give way. The lateness of the Labour proposals meant that it was difficult for us to address what may have been a legitimate Labour point of view.

The people of Scotland want this Parliament to get on with its business. In the interests of the people of Scotland, let us accept the Liberal Democrat amendment and get on with the business of the Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2080E130P217C704318", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lamont, Johann", "ID": 2080, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Pollok" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Johann Lamont", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Johann Lamont: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 270.0, "ContributionID": 704318, "EditedText": "The point is not that I am entitled to an allowance, but that I am entitled to an allowance of up to a certain amount. I would ensure that anyone who claims an allowance has to justify it. We also have to recognise that there are difficulties. It is my responsibility to represent the people of Pollok—all the people of Pollok, not just the healthy majority who elected me.", "EditedTextHTML": "The point is not that I am entitled to an allowance, but that I am entitled to an allowance of up to a certain amount. I would ensure that anyone who claims an allowance has to justify it.

We also have to recognise that there are difficulties. It is my responsibility to represent the people of Pollok—all the people of Pollok, not just the healthy majority who elected me.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1752E75P296C704314", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jamieson, Cathy", "ID": 1752, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Cathy Jamieson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Cathy Jamieson (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 260.0, "ContributionID": 704314, "EditedText": "Like many members who have spoken, I do not take great pleasure in the fact that my first speech should be in this debate. I stand here with some humility, recognising the responsibilities that have been put on me as a constituency MSP to represent the people of Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley, who showed their confidence in me by voting for me. I also have some humility because I recognise that I now have the best-paid job that I have ever had— probably the best-paid job that I will ever have. With a background in the voluntary sector and in having to make do and mend in organising office allowances, staffing costs and so on, I know—as many people in the voluntary sector know—what it is like to run a service without proper resources. Members should note that the motion is unusual on a couple of points. It says that \"staff employed by a member will be employed on the terms and conditions determined by the SPCB from time to time.\" Although I have made several attempts to get the information, it seems that no terms and conditions have been determined. As we wish to be good employers, it is inconceivable that we should not act quickly to set those terms and conditions in consultation with a trade union. I believe that the appropriate union is the Transport And General Workers Union, which negotiates on behalf of the parliamentary staff in Westminster and of which I happen to be a member. I want members to note the motion's next line, which says: \"A member may employ his or her staff on conditions which are more favourable to the employee than those determined by the SPCB\". I hope that some of us will do so.Bill Aitken made a comment about fairness and justice, but I will not take lessons about fairness and justice from the Tories, who did not want a minimum wage or the limitations that result from a 48-hour working week. The members' information pack, which was very helpfully put together for us, tells members how to get their staff to opt out of the 48-hour rule. I hope that, after all the talk of family-friendly policies, no member of this Parliament attempts to do that—especially those of us who are wearing ribbons to show support for the Carers National Association. I do not believe that anybody—certainly not a member of this Parliament—should ask his or her staff to work more than 48 hours a week. I finish on the point about equality for all members, whether they be constituency or list members. I was elected to do a job in Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley. I fully intend to do that job and I expect the list members to do theirs. Their job is no less valuable than mine, but it is different. List members are here to ensure political balance; they have different responsibilities and there may be different requirements to allow them to fulfil those responsibilities. Neither I nor—I hope—other members will have a problem with that arrangement.", "EditedTextHTML": "Like many members who have spoken, I do not take great pleasure in the fact that my first speech should be in this debate. I stand here with some humility, recognising the responsibilities that have been put on me as a constituency MSP to represent the people of Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley, who showed

their confidence in me by voting for me. I also have some humility because I recognise that I now have the best-paid job that I have ever had— probably the best-paid job that I will ever have. With a background in the voluntary sector and in having to make do and mend in organising office allowances, staffing costs and so on, I know—as many people in the voluntary sector know—what it is like to run a service without proper resources.

Members should note that the motion is unusual on a couple of points. It says that

\"staff employed by a member will be employed on the terms and conditions determined by the SPCB from time to time.\"

Although I have made several attempts to get the information, it seems that no terms and conditions have been determined. As we wish to be good employers, it is inconceivable that we should not act quickly to set those terms and conditions in consultation with a trade union. I believe that the appropriate union is the Transport And General Workers Union, which negotiates on behalf of the parliamentary staff in Westminster and of which I happen to be a member.

I want members to note the motion's next line, which says:

\"A member may employ his or her staff on conditions which are more favourable to the employee than those determined by the SPCB\".

I hope that some of us will do so.

Bill Aitken made a comment about fairness and justice, but I will not take lessons about fairness and justice from the Tories, who did not want a minimum wage or the limitations that result from a 48-hour working week. The members' information pack, which was very helpfully put together for us, tells members how to get their staff to opt out of the 48-hour rule. I hope that, after all the talk of family-friendly policies, no member of this Parliament attempts to do that—especially those of us who are wearing ribbons to show support for the Carers National Association. I do not believe that anybody—certainly not a member of this Parliament—should ask his or her staff to work more than 48 hours a week.

I finish on the point about equality for all members, whether they be constituency or list members. I was elected to do a job in Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley. I fully intend to do that job and I expect the list members to do theirs. Their job is no less valuable than mine, but it is different. List members are here to ensure political balance; they have different responsibilities and there may be different requirements to allow them to fulfil those responsibilities. Neither I nor—I hope—other members will have a problem with that arrangement.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1888E265P358C704317", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morgan, Alasdair", "ID": 1888, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Galloway and Upper Nithsdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morgan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alasdair Morgan rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 268.0, "ContributionID": 704317, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1828E200P487C704323", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacDonald, Margo", "ID": 1828, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margo MacDonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms MacDonald: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 280.0, "ContributionID": 704323, "EditedText": "Will Johann Lamont give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Johann Lamont give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2080E130P217C704324", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lamont, Johann", "ID": 2080, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Pollok" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Johann Lamont", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Johann Lamont: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 282.0, "ContributionID": 704324, "EditedText": "I have already said no. The charge that we are denying opposition—", "EditedTextHTML": "I have already said no. The charge that we are denying opposition—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1908E166P251C704332", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Kerr, Andy", "ID": 1908, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Kilbride" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andy Kerr", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Andy Kerr (East Kilbride) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 302.0, "ContributionID": 704332, "EditedText": "I too believe in parity and equality, but I also believe that there is a difference between the jobs of list MSPs and the jobs of constituency MSPs. That is simply a fact of life that we will have to live with. I was elected as a first-past-the-post representative primarily to look after the interests of the people of East Kilbride, who will come to me with constituency matters. They have already done so through the two surgeries that I have held, through phoning me at home and through writing to me. That is my role and we do not need another MSP simply shadowing that role at the taxpayers' expense.", "EditedTextHTML": "I too believe in parity and equality, but I also believe that there is a difference between the jobs of list MSPs and the jobs of constituency MSPs. That is simply a fact of life that we will have to live with.

I was elected as a first-past-the-post representative primarily to look after the interests of the people of East Kilbride, who will come to me with constituency matters. They have already done so through the two surgeries that I have held, through phoning me at home and through writing to me. That is my role and we do not need another MSP simply shadowing that role at the taxpayers' expense.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C704338", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 315.0, "ContributionID": 704338, "EditedText": "I have to say that I am disappointed by the debate this afternoon. In my opening remarks, I talked about the need to have a dignified debate. I discussed that in a telephone conversation with Jack McConnell on Sunday night. It is a horrific thought that on Sunday nights Jack McConnell and I have to speak to each other, but we agreed and this morning I made the same point to Mr McCabe. It is to be regretted that there has been no such restraint and dignity in most of the speeches that we have heard, especially from Labour members, and particularly from Mr McConnell. Like Robert Brown, I do not recognise Mr McConnell's account of the allowances group. I remember that after giving a lecture on the need for public prudence— shortly after his appointment and before his department spent £600,000 on special advisers— Mr McConnell left the building and got into his chauffeur-driven car. Being lectured on prudence by a man who leaves in a chauffeur-driven car sticks in the craw. I regret the way in which Labour members have treated most of these matters. I am sure that Ms Whitefield has a passion for Airdrie—she expressed it in lengthy terms—but she has no passion for democracy. That came out in the memorable words of Johann Lamont. She said that self-interest dressed up as principle is still self-interest. I think that a number of members condemn themselves out of their own mouths. There is an important principle, which was embodied by something Mr McLeish said on 28 January 1998 during the committee stage of the Scotland Bill. He said: \"Once elected, a regional Member will have the same rights and responsibilities as any other Member.\"—Official Report, House of Commons, 28 January 1998; Vol 305, c 444. It is impossible to know exactly how things will turn out, but look at that pile of correspondence on Mr Harper's desk. There is no doubt that there will be a heavy weight of constituency responsibility on list members, who have a constituency. I stress that they have a constituency, which is obvious from the debate that we have had and from debates on the Scotland Act 1998. In the circumstances, it would have been better—and wiser—if the Labour party had not indulged in what Tommy Sheridan called an act of political spite. That is what we are seeing today and it is regrettable. The motion is worthy of support in its own terms. It preaches equality and transparency and those things are in it. I will say one thing to Irene Oldfather. I am flattered that I am at the centre of her attentions and that she follows every movement that I make in Irvine. I promise her that for the next four years I shall be in Irvine regularly and shall hold surgeries in Irvine, as the code allows me to do. I shall work in Irvine and I look forward to the next Scottish Parliament election in Irvine as, on Irene Oldfather's account, I have gained a 10 per cent swing by doing nothing. Who knows what will happen when I get to work?", "EditedTextHTML": "I have to say that I am disappointed by the debate this afternoon. In my opening remarks, I talked about the need to have a dignified debate. I discussed that in a telephone conversation with Jack McConnell on Sunday night. It is a horrific thought that on Sunday nights Jack McConnell and I have to speak to each other, but we agreed and this morning I made the same point to Mr McCabe.

It is to be regretted that there has been no such restraint and dignity in most of the speeches that we have heard, especially from Labour members, and particularly from Mr McConnell. Like Robert Brown, I do not recognise Mr McConnell's account of the allowances group. I remember that after giving a lecture on the need for public prudence— shortly after his appointment and before his department spent £600,000 on special advisers— Mr McConnell left the building and got into his chauffeur-driven car. Being lectured on prudence by a man who leaves in a chauffeur-driven car sticks in the craw.

I regret the way in which Labour members have treated most of these matters. I am sure that Ms Whitefield has a passion for Airdrie—she expressed it in lengthy terms—but she has no passion for democracy. That came out in the

memorable words of Johann Lamont. She said that self-interest dressed up as principle is still self-interest. I think that a number of members condemn themselves out of their own mouths. There is an important principle, which was embodied by something Mr McLeish said on 28 January 1998 during the committee stage of the Scotland Bill. He said:

\"Once elected, a regional Member will have the same rights and responsibilities as any other Member.\"—[Official Report, House of Commons, 28 January 1998; Vol 305, c 444.]

It is impossible to know exactly how things will turn out, but look at that pile of correspondence on Mr Harper's desk. There is no doubt that there will be a heavy weight of constituency responsibility on list members, who have a constituency. I stress that they have a constituency, which is obvious from the debate that we have had and from debates on the Scotland Act 1998. In the circumstances, it would have been better—and wiser—if the Labour party had not indulged in what Tommy Sheridan called an act of political spite. That is what we are seeing today and it is regrettable.

The motion is worthy of support in its own terms. It preaches equality and transparency and those things are in it. I will say one thing to Irene Oldfather. I am flattered that I am at the centre of her attentions and that she follows every movement that I make in Irvine. I promise her that for the next four years I shall be in Irvine regularly and shall hold surgeries in Irvine, as the code allows me to do. I shall work in Irvine and I look forward to the next Scottish Parliament election in Irvine as, on Irene Oldfather's account, I have gained a 10 per cent swing by doing nothing. Who knows what will happen when I get to work?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704344", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26610, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 322.0, "ID": 26610, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 325.0, "ContributionID": 704344, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C704345", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26610, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 322.0, "ID": 26610, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 327.0, "ContributionID": 704345, "EditedText": "I will now put the question on the three motions and the amendments. That the Parliament shall establish the following committees:European Committee; remit as set out in rule 6.8. Maximum 13 members. Equal Opportunities Committee; remit as set out in rule 6.9. Maximum 13 members. Finance Committee; remit as set out in rule 6.6. Maximum 11 members. Audit Committee; remit as set out in rule 6.7. Maximum 11 members. Procedures Committee; remit as set out in rule 6.4. Maximum 7 members. Standards Committee; remit as set out in rule 6.5. Maximum 7 members. Public Petitions Committee; remit as set out in rule 6.10. Maximum 7 members. Subordinate Legislation Committee; remit as set out in rule 6.11. Maximum 7 members. Justice and Home Affairs Committee; remit: to consider and report on matters relating to the administration of civil and criminal justice, the reform of the civil and criminal law and such other matters as fall within the responsibility of the Minister for Justice. Maximum 11 members. Education, Culture and Sport Committee; remit: to consider and report on matters relating to school and pre-school education, the arts, culture and sport and such other matters as fall within the responsibility of the Minister for Children and Education. Maximum 11 members. Social Inclusion, Housing and Voluntary Sector Committee; remit: to consider and report on matters relating to housing and the voluntary sector and such other matters as fall within the responsibility of the Minister for Communities other than local government. Maximum 11 members. Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee; remit: to consider and report on matters relating to the Scottish economy, industry, tourism, training and further and higher education and such other matters as fall within the responsibility of the Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning. Maximum 11 members. Health and Community Care Committee; remit: to consider and report on matters relating to health policy and the National Health Service in Scotland and such other matters as fall within the responsibility of the Minister for Health and Community Care. Maximum 11 members. Transport and the Environment Committee; remit: to consider and report on matters relating to transport, the environment and natural heritage and such other matters as fall within the responsibility of the Minister for Transport and the Environment. Maximum 11 members. Rural Affairs Committee; remit: to consider and report on matters relating to rural development, agriculture and fisheries and such other matters as fall within the responsibility of the Minister for Rural Affairs. Maximum 11 members. Local Government Committee; remit: to consider and report on matters relating to local government. Maximum 11 members.The Justice and Home Affairs; Education, Culture and Sport; Social Inclusion, Housing and Voluntary Sector; Enterprise and Lifelong Learning; Health and Community Care; Transport and the Environment; Rural Affairs; and Local Government committees shall be established for the whole session of the Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will now put the question on the three motions and the amendments.

That the Parliament shall establish the following committees:

European Committee; remit as set out in rule 6.8. Maximum 13 members.
Equal Opportunities Committee; remit as set out in rule 6.9. Maximum 13 members.
Finance Committee; remit as set out in rule 6.6. Maximum 11 members.
Audit Committee; remit as set out in rule 6.7. Maximum 11 members.
Procedures Committee; remit as set out in rule 6.4. Maximum 7 members.
Standards Committee; remit as set out in rule 6.5. Maximum 7 members.
Public Petitions Committee; remit as set out in rule 6.10. Maximum 7 members.
Subordinate Legislation Committee; remit as set out in rule 6.11. Maximum 7 members.
Justice and Home Affairs Committee; remit: to consider and report on matters relating to the administration of civil and criminal justice, the reform of the civil and criminal law and such other matters as fall within the responsibility of the Minister for Justice. Maximum 11 members.
Education, Culture and Sport Committee; remit: to consider and report on matters relating to school and pre-school education, the arts, culture and sport and such other matters as fall within the responsibility of the Minister for Children and Education. Maximum 11 members.
Social Inclusion, Housing and Voluntary Sector Committee; remit: to consider and report on matters relating to housing and the voluntary sector and such other matters as fall within the responsibility of the Minister for Communities other than local government. Maximum 11 members.
Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee; remit: to consider and report on matters relating to the Scottish economy, industry, tourism, training and further and higher education and such other matters as fall within the responsibility of the Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning. Maximum 11 members.
Health and Community Care Committee; remit: to consider and report on matters relating to health policy and the National Health Service in Scotland and such other matters as fall within the responsibility of the Minister for Health and Community Care. Maximum 11 members.
Transport and the Environment Committee; remit: to consider and report on matters relating to transport, the environment and natural heritage and such other matters as fall within the responsibility of the Minister for Transport and the Environment. Maximum 11 members.
Rural Affairs Committee; remit: to consider and report on matters relating to rural development, agriculture and fisheries and such other matters as fall within the responsibility of the Minister for Rural Affairs. Maximum 11 members.
Local Government Committee; remit: to consider and report on matters relating to local government. Maximum 11 members.

The Justice and Home Affairs; Education, Culture and Sport; Social Inclusion, Housing and Voluntary Sector; Enterprise and Lifelong Learning; Health and Community Care; Transport and the Environment; Rural Affairs; and Local Government committees shall be established for the whole session of the Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704362", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26610, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 322.0, "ID": 26610, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 354.0, "ContributionID": 704362, "EditedText": "The following Parts A, B and C together with the Annexes attached shall be the Scheme:", "EditedTextHTML": "The following Parts A, B and C together with the Annexes attached shall be the Scheme:

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704363", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26610, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 322.0, "ID": 26610, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 355.0, "ContributionID": 704363, "EditedText": "\"Part A – General Rules in relation to the Scheme", "EditedTextHTML": "\"Part A – General Rules in relation to the Scheme

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704364", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26610, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 322.0, "ID": 26610, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 356.0, "ContributionID": 704364, "EditedText": "The following general rules shall, unless the context otherwise requires, govern the Scheme:", "EditedTextHTML": "The following general rules shall, unless the context otherwise requires, govern the Scheme:

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704349", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26610, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 322.0, "ID": 26610, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 335.0, "ContributionID": 704349, "EditedText": "FOR Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)Mackay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)AGAINST Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Crawford, Bruce JP (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)(LD)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP) Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con) McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab) McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab) ABSTENTIONS Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Mackay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)

AGAINST

Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Crawford, Bruce JP (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)
(LD)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)

ABSTENTIONS

Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704351", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26610, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 322.0, "ID": 26610, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 338.0, "ContributionID": 704351, "EditedText": "Amendment disagreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment disagreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C704352", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26610, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 322.0, "ID": 26610, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 339.0, "ContributionID": 704352, "EditedText": "The question is, that amendment S1M-40.2, in the name of Mrs Margaret Smith, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "The question is, that amendment S1M-40.2, in the name of Mrs Margaret Smith, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704368", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26610, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 322.0, "ID": 26610, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 360.0, "ContributionID": 704368, "EditedText": "\"other residence\" means any residence which the member owns or leases other than his or her main residence, and any reference to a Part is a reference to the Part so lettered in this Scheme and any reference to an Annex is a reference to the Annex so lettered in this Scheme. (2) This Scheme shall come into force 24 hours after the passing of the resolution giving effect to the Scheme. Rule 2 – Verifiable Expenditure (1) The SPCB may, on an application for the purpose made to it by a member in accordance with this Scheme, make payments to that member by way of allowances for the reimbursement of expenses incurred by that member. (2) Allowances for which a member is eligible shall be paid by the SPCB only upon the production to the SPCB of evidence of relevant expenditure. (3) The SPCB shall provide forms for the purposes of administering the Scheme which members shall complete and sign in order to claim the relevant allowance. Rule 3 –The Allowances Code", "EditedTextHTML": "\"other residence\" means any residence which the member owns or leases other than his or her main residence, and any reference to a Part is a reference to the Part so lettered in this Scheme and any reference to an Annex is a reference to the Annex so lettered in this Scheme. (2) This Scheme shall come into force 24 hours after the passing of the resolution giving effect to the Scheme. Rule 2 – Verifiable Expenditure (1) The SPCB may, on an application for the purpose made to it by a member in accordance with this Scheme, make payments to that member by way of allowances for the reimbursement of expenses incurred by that member. (2) Allowances for which a member is eligible shall be paid by the SPCB only upon the production to the SPCB of evidence of relevant expenditure. (3) The SPCB shall provide forms for the purposes of administering the Scheme which members shall complete and sign in order to claim the relevant allowance. Rule 3 –The Allowances Code

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704370", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26610, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 322.0, "ID": 26610, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 362.0, "ContributionID": 704370, "EditedText": "Rule 4 – Publication (1) The SPCB shall publish the following information for each financial year in respect of each member in such form as the SPCB may determine– incurred; (a) and details of the allowance expenditure member. (b) the names of the staff employed by the (2) A copy of the information published under paragraph (1) shall be kept by the Clerk at the office of the Clerk and shall be available for inspection by any person on the days and at the times when the office of the Clerk is open. Rule 5 – Enforcement (1) The SPCB shall be responsible for supervising members' adherence to the Scheme. (2) Where eligibility for any of the allowances in this Scheme is in dispute, and cannot otherwise be resolved, the matter shall be referred to the SPCB for determination. (3) Any member may make a complaint to the SPCB about another member where he or she has reason to believe that allowances under this Scheme have not been expended in accordance with the Scheme (hereinafter referred to as an improper use of allowances), and where such a complaint is made, the SPCB shall hear that complaint within one month. (5) Where the SPCB has reason to believe that a member has made an improper use of allowances or where the SPCB has received a complaint under sub-paragraph (3), the SPCB may, after raising the matter with the Business Manager of the relevant political party, initiate investigations into the matter. (5) Where the SPCB has initiated investigations in accordance with paragraph (4) and finds that a member has made an improper use of allowances, the SPCB shall report to the Standards Committee with its recommendation; and such a recommendation may propose the removal of all or part of the member's allowance.", "EditedTextHTML": "Rule 4 – Publication (1) The SPCB shall publish the following information for each financial year in respect of each member in such form as the SPCB may determine– incurred; (a) and details of the allowance expenditure member. (b) the names of the staff employed by the (2) A copy of the information published under paragraph (1) shall be kept by the Clerk at the office of the Clerk and shall be available for inspection by any person on the days and at the times when the office of the Clerk is open. Rule 5 – Enforcement (1) The SPCB shall be responsible for supervising members' adherence to the Scheme. (2) Where eligibility for any of the allowances in this Scheme is in dispute, and cannot otherwise be resolved, the matter shall be referred to the SPCB for determination. (3) Any member may make a complaint to the SPCB about another member where he or she has reason to believe that allowances under this Scheme have not been expended in accordance with the Scheme (hereinafter referred to as an improper use of allowances), and where such a complaint is made, the SPCB shall hear that complaint within one month. (5) Where the SPCB has reason to believe that a member has made an improper use of allowances or where the SPCB has received a complaint under sub-paragraph (3), the SPCB may, after raising the matter with the Business Manager of the relevant political party, initiate investigations into the matter. (5) Where the SPCB has initiated investigations in accordance with paragraph (4) and finds that a member has made an improper use of allowances, the SPCB shall report to the Standards Committee with its recommendation; and such a recommendation may propose the removal of all or part of the member's allowance.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704374", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26610, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 322.0, "ID": 26610, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 366.0, "ContributionID": 704374, "EditedText": "Rule 10 – Allowances: general (1) Where a member has claimed an allowance from any other source, the member shall not be eligible to claim the same allowance under this Scheme. (2) Where a person becomes eligible for an allowance part way through the financial year, then the amount of any allowance payable under this Scheme shall be apportioned on a pro rata basis. (3) Where a person ceases to be a member part way through the financial year, the SPCB shall decide whether or not any allowance shall be apportioned on a pro rata basis. Part B – Allowances", "EditedTextHTML": "Rule 10 – Allowances: general (1) Where a member has claimed an allowance from any other source, the member shall not be eligible to claim the same allowance under this Scheme. (2) Where a person becomes eligible for an allowance part way through the financial year, then the amount of any allowance payable under this Scheme shall be apportioned on a pro rata basis. (3) Where a person ceases to be a member part way through the financial year, the SPCB shall decide whether or not any allowance shall be apportioned on a pro rata basis. Part B – Allowances

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704377", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26610, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 322.0, "ID": 26610, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 369.0, "ContributionID": 704377, "EditedText": "5. Exceptional Needs Allowance (1) This paragraph applies to members from those constituencies or regions which are set out in Annex C. (2) A member shall be eligible to claim an exceptional needs allowance of up to £80 per night where it is unreasonable for the member to return to his or her main or other residence before or after undertaking Parliamentary duties within the member's constituency or region. 6. Overnight Subsistence Allowance (1) Subject to sub-paragraphs (4) and (5), a member shall be eligible for an overnight subsistence allowance where he or she requires for the purpose of carrying out his or her Parliamentary duties to spend a night away from his or her main or other residence. (2) The amount of the overnight subsistence allowance shall be:( a) up to £80 per night; or (b) up to £100 per night in Greater London; or (c) in respect of a stay outside the United Kingdom an amount determined by the SPCB. (3) Any claim for overnight subsistence in connection with a stay outside Scotland shall be eligible for reimbursement only where the stay concerned has been authorised in advance by the SPCB. (4) A member is not eligible for an allowance under this paragraph in connection with Parliamentary duties in Edinburgh. (5) A member is not eligible for an allowance under this paragraph in connection with Parliamentary duties within his or her constituency or region. 7. Staff Travel Allowance (1) This paragraph applies only to staff employed through the SPCB payroll service. (2) Each member is eligible for an allowance in respect of the cost of 40 single journeys for each financial year between their constituency or region and the Parliamentary complex by members of their staff. (3) The SPCB shall keep a record of each member's entitlement to an allowance under this paragraph and its use to date. 8. Family Travel Allowance (1) Each member is eligible for an allowance in respect of the cost of 12 single journeys for each financial year between his or her constituency, region or main residence and Edinburgh for each member of his or her immediate family. (2) In this paragraph, \"immediate family\" means ( a) the member's spouse or another nominated person; and (b) any child under the age of 18; and (c) for the purposes of this paragraph \"child\" includes any step child, adopted child, foster child or any other child living with that member as part of his or her family. (3) The SPCB shall keep a record of each member's entitlement to an allowance under this paragraph and its use to date. (4) In order to qualify for the family travel allowance, a member must register with the SPCB who are his or her immediate family eligible to take part in the Scheme. 9. Disability Allowance (1) This paragraph applies to any member whose ability to undertake his or her role as a member is impaired by reason of disability. (2) The SPCB may award an allowance up to a maximum of £10,000 per session to a member for him or her to use in any way which the SPCB decides is helpful to the member in undertaking his or her work. 10. Winding Up Allowance (2) Where a member ceases to serve as a member of the Parliament, he or she shall be eligible for a winding up allowance. (2) The amount of the winding up allowance shall be the equivalent of one third of the staff allowance and local office costs allowance payable in any one financial year to which the member would otherwise have been entitled. Part C – Independent Review", "EditedTextHTML": "5. Exceptional Needs Allowance (1) This paragraph applies to members from those constituencies or regions which are set out in Annex C. (2) A member shall be eligible to claim an exceptional needs allowance of up to £80 per night where it is unreasonable for the member to return to his or her main or other residence before or after undertaking Parliamentary duties within the member's constituency or region. 6. Overnight Subsistence Allowance (1) Subject to sub-paragraphs (4) and (5), a member shall be eligible for an overnight subsistence allowance where he or she requires for the purpose of carrying out his or her Parliamentary duties to spend a night away from his or her main or other residence. (2) The amount of the overnight subsistence allowance shall be:( a) up to £80 per night; or (b) up to £100 per night in Greater London; or (c) in respect of a stay outside the United Kingdom an amount determined by the SPCB. (3) Any claim for overnight subsistence in connection with a stay outside Scotland shall be eligible for reimbursement only where the stay concerned has been authorised in advance by the SPCB. (4) A member is not eligible for an allowance under this paragraph in connection with Parliamentary duties in Edinburgh. (5) A member is not eligible for an allowance under this paragraph in connection with Parliamentary duties within his or her constituency or region. 7. Staff Travel Allowance (1) This paragraph applies only to staff employed through the SPCB payroll service. (2) Each member is eligible for an allowance in respect of the cost of 40 single journeys for each financial year between their constituency or region and the Parliamentary complex by members of their staff. (3) The SPCB shall keep a record of each member's entitlement to an allowance under this paragraph and its use to date. 8. Family Travel Allowance (1) Each member is eligible for an allowance in respect of the cost of 12 single journeys for each financial year between his or her constituency, region or main residence and Edinburgh for each member of his or her immediate family. (2) In this paragraph, \"immediate family\" means ( a) the member's spouse or another nominated person; and (b) any child under the age of 18; and (c) for the purposes of this paragraph \"child\" includes any step child, adopted child, foster child or any other child living with that member as part of his or her family. (3) The SPCB shall keep a record of each member's entitlement to an allowance under this paragraph and its use to date. (4) In order to qualify for the family travel allowance, a member must register with the SPCB who are his or her immediate family eligible to take part in the Scheme. 9. Disability Allowance (1) This paragraph applies to any member whose ability to undertake his or her role as a member is impaired by reason of disability. (2) The SPCB may award an allowance up to a maximum of £10,000 per session to a member for him or her to use in any way which the SPCB decides is helpful to the member in undertaking his or her work. 10. Winding Up Allowance (2) Where a member ceases to serve as a member of the Parliament, he or she shall be eligible for a winding up allowance. (2) The amount of the winding up allowance shall be the equivalent of one third of the staff allowance and local office costs allowance payable in any one financial year to which the member would otherwise have been entitled. Part C – Independent Review

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704378", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26610, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 322.0, "ID": 26610, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 370.0, "ContributionID": 704378, "EditedText": "For the purposes of determining the success or otherwise of the practical operation of the Scheme, the SPCB shall, within 18 months of the coming into force of this Scheme, set up an independent review of the operation of the Scheme and following the review make recommendations to the Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "For the purposes of determining the success or otherwise of the practical operation of the Scheme, the SPCB shall, within 18 months of the coming into force of this Scheme, set up an independent review of the operation of the Scheme and following the review make recommendations to the Parliament.

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" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704385", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26610, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 322.0, "ID": 26610, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 377.0, "ContributionID": 704385, "EditedText": "Edinburgh West Edinburgh Pentlands Edinburgh Central Edinburgh North & Leith Edinburgh South Edinburgh East & Musselburgh Linlithgow Livingston Midlothian", "EditedTextHTML": "Edinburgh West Edinburgh Pentlands Edinburgh Central Edinburgh North & Leith Edinburgh South Edinburgh East & Musselburgh Linlithgow Livingston Midlothian

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704386", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26610, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 322.0, "ID": 26610, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 378.0, "ContributionID": 704386, "EditedText": "Group Two", "EditedTextHTML": "Group Two

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704389", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26610, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 322.0, "ID": 26610, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 381.0, "ContributionID": 704389, "EditedText": "Strathkelvin & Bearsden Paisley North Paisley South", "EditedTextHTML": "Strathkelvin & Bearsden Paisley North Paisley South

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704396", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26610, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 322.0, "ID": 26610, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 388.0, "ContributionID": 704396, "EditedText": "A: Constituencies of over 250,000 hectares Argyll & Bute Caithness, Sutherland & Easter Ross Galloway & Upper Nithsdale Inverness East, Nairn & Lochaber North Tayside Ross, Skye and Inverness West Roxburgh & Berwickshire West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine Western Isles", "EditedTextHTML": "A: Constituencies of over 250,000 hectares Argyll & Bute Caithness, Sutherland & Easter Ross Galloway & Upper Nithsdale Inverness East, Nairn & Lochaber North Tayside Ross, Skye and Inverness West Roxburgh & Berwickshire West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine Western Isles

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704397", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26610, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 322.0, "ID": 26610, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 389.0, "ContributionID": 704397, "EditedText": "B: Constituencies which contain significant island communities Orkney Shetland Cunninghame North", "EditedTextHTML": "B: Constituencies which contain significant island communities Orkney Shetland Cunninghame North

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C704399", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26610, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 322.0, "ID": 26610, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 391.0, "ContributionID": 704399, "EditedText": "Motion S1M-41 concerned equipment. The question is, that motion S1M-41, in the name of Mr Michael Russell, be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion S1M-41 concerned equipment. The question is, that motion S1M-41, in the name of Mr Michael Russell, be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C704404", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26610, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 322.0, "ID": 26610, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 397.0, "ContributionID": 704404, "EditedText": "That concludes the main business. We now move on to members' business.", "EditedTextHTML": "That concludes the main business. We now move on to members' business.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C704407", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26610, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 322.0, "ID": 26610, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 403.0, "ContributionID": 704407, "EditedText": "It is a brief point of order. The ruling on interventions seems unclear. If no one takes interventions, it will stifle debate. It would be helpful, Mr Presiding Officer, if there could be a definitive ruling that members who take interventions will not be unduly penalised in terms of time.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is a brief point of order. The ruling on interventions seems unclear. If no one takes interventions, it will stifle debate. It would be helpful, Mr Presiding Officer, if there could be a definitive ruling that members who take interventions will not be unduly penalised in terms of time.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C704409", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26610, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 322.0, "ID": 26610, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 407.0, "ContributionID": 704409, "EditedText": "That was the purport of my ruling earlier, but I will deliver a short homily in the bulletin so that everybody has it in writing. We now move to the members' business debate, which is on motion S1M-24 lodged by Dr Sylvia Jackson. Members who do not wish to stay for the debate should please leave as quietly as possible.", "EditedTextHTML": "That was the purport of my ruling earlier, but I will deliver a short homily in the bulletin so that everybody has it in writing.

We now move to the members' business debate, which is on motion S1M-24 lodged by Dr Sylvia Jackson. Members who do not wish to stay for the debate should please leave as quietly as possible.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C704410", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26610, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 322.0, "ID": 26610, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 409.0, "ContributionID": 704410, "EditedText": "We seem to have a slight problem with the microphones at the moment. The matter is being attended to. I am informed that within a minute or two we shall have the microphones back, so members should exercise a little patience. Our apologies to Dr Jackson.", "EditedTextHTML": "We seem to have a slight problem with the microphones at the moment. The matter is being attended to.

I am informed that within a minute or two we shall have the microphones back, so members should exercise a little patience. Our apologies to Dr Jackson.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C704423", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Park", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26611, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 411.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 411.0, "ID": 26611, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Brian Monteith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 440.0, "ContributionID": 704423, "EditedText": "Dr Jackson will recall from the debate that we had on 26 April in Aberfoyle that there is a great deal of local concern about what the term national—or perhaps I should say nationalised— park really means. Much of the concern is about funding—for example, what funding might there be to mitigate the infrastructure problems that will undoubtedly occur? There has been a lot of talk about using national parks as a branding exercise to bring more people into the Loch Lomond area. Certainly, many of the people who are in favour of a national park see it as a way to attract more tourists. As has been said, that can cause great problems, as the additional tourist load can erode the beautiful things that we are trying to preserve. National parks are a double-edged sword. We must examine what can be done about viewing points, single-track roads and additional lay-bys, and we must ensure not only that there are toilets, but that they are kept open. Sylvia knows fine well what I mean by that. I have no doubt that we will return to the issues of boundaries and who runs the park, but we are seeing undue haste on this matter—there is by no means a consensus that a national park is needed in the locality of Loch Lomond. The issue is not simply one of preserving the beautiful environment. The proposal will undoubtedly affect people's lifestyles and businesses. Indeed, in trying to preserve what needs to be preserved, we may be disrupting it. I recommend that the Administration resists the temptation to legislate immediately.", "EditedTextHTML": "Dr Jackson will recall from the debate that we had on 26 April in Aberfoyle that there is a great deal of local concern about what the term national—or perhaps I should say nationalised— park really means. Much of the concern is about funding—for example, what funding might there be to mitigate the infrastructure problems that will undoubtedly occur?

There has been a lot of talk about using national parks as a branding exercise to bring more people into the Loch Lomond area. Certainly, many of the people who are in favour of a national park see it as a way to attract more tourists. As has been said, that can cause great problems, as the additional tourist load can erode the beautiful things that we are trying to preserve. National parks are a double-edged sword.

We must examine what can be done about viewing points, single-track roads and additional lay-bys, and we must ensure not only that there are toilets, but that they are kept open. Sylvia knows fine well what I mean by that.

I have no doubt that we will return to the issues of boundaries and who runs the park, but we are seeing undue haste on this matter—there is by no means a consensus that a national park is needed in the locality of Loch Lomond. The issue is not simply one of preserving the beautiful environment. The proposal will undoubtedly affect people's lifestyles and businesses. Indeed, in trying to preserve what needs to be preserved, we may be disrupting it. I recommend that the Administration resists the temptation to legislate immediately.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C704428", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Park", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26611, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 411.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 411.0, "ID": 26611, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fergus Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 452.0, "ContributionID": 704428, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:01:17.555696+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C704430", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Park", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26611, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 411.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 411.0, "ID": 26611, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fergus Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 456.0, "ContributionID": 704430, "EditedText": "No one is suggesting that there should be one blueprint for the whole of Scotland. The question is how Labour will fund a national park in Loch Lomond. How much will such a park cost per year? Will the Executive rule out imposing local road tolls to fund it?", "EditedTextHTML": "No one is suggesting that there should be one blueprint for the whole of Scotland. The question is how Labour will fund a national park in Loch Lomond. How much will such a park cost per year? Will the Executive rule out imposing local road tolls to fund it?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:01:17.555696+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1870E181P475C704290", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robison, Shona", "ID": 1870, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Shona Robison", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Shona Robison (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 207.0, "ContributionID": 704290, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "

Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:01:17.555696+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C704426", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Park", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26611, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 411.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 411.0, "ID": 26611, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fergus Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 448.0, "ContributionID": 704426, "EditedText": "Will the minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:01:17.555696+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C704429", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Park", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26611, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 411.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 411.0, "ID": 26611, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 454.0, "ContributionID": 704429, "EditedText": "I can see that Mr Ewing is absolutely desperate, so I will let him make a brief intervention.", "EditedTextHTML": "I can see that Mr Ewing is absolutely desperate, so I will let him make a brief intervention.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:13.3570755+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C704425", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Park", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26611, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 411.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 411.0, "ID": 26611, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment (Sarah Boyack): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 446.0, "ContributionID": 704425, "EditedText": "I thank Sylvia Jackson for initiating this debate. Every speech earlier this afternoon was prefaced by the phrase, \"I wish we could have been talking about something else.\" Well, here is an important subject with practical significance for the future of Scotland. There is widespread agreement about the need for a national park, but I will respond to some of the specific questions that have been raised. This is not a new issue; it has been with us for a long time. It is not a mark of haste to suggest that it should be one of the priorities for an incoming Scottish Parliament. For centuries, Loch Lomond and the Trossachs have been celebrated for their outstanding scenic qualities. The area supports a rich mix of water, wild land, forest, woodland, farmland and people. It is an exceptional landscape throughout the year and is of the highest importance, both nationally and internationally, in terms of natural heritage. To those who suggest that a national park would create pressures, I say that there are already pressures. The real question that we must address is how to manage existing problems in an integrated and effective way. Somewhere in the region of 5 million people visit Loch Lomond and the Trossachs each summer. Many of them are stopping locally, but many are staying for a longer period. Many of them arrive by car: about 93 per cent of visitors travel privately, the vast majority by car. Mr Monteith's comments about parking and infrastructure are absolutely critical and must be addressed. The west Highland way, which was mentioned by Fergus Ewing, attracts more than 50,000 walkers per year. There are already problems in Loch Lomond and the Trossachs. Robin Harper was absolutely correct with his comments on managing the critical and carrying capacities of the area, but we need a mechanism to do that. Although we do not currently have such a mechanism, the national park may provide us with one. I offer one last snapshot of the issue's importance. Around 70 per cent of Scotland's population can travel to Loch Lomond and the Trossachs in less than an hour. That is an awful lot of us for a day trip, and does not include visitors from abroad. Since the election of the Labour Government in 1997, we have made substantial progress. Scottish Natural Heritage has carried out a huge amount of research, in two phases. Initially, people were asked to give their views; those consulted included local authorities, community councils, public agencies and everyone in the area who was interested. Reviews of national park structures elsewhere were commissioned, and the experience—which Mr Raffan mentioned—both nationally within the UK and internationally, was considered. A huge number of meetings were also held. In the second phase of the consultation, more than 10,000 copies of Scottish Natural Heritage's proposals and consultation paper were issued. A great deal of consultation has been carried out. That does not mean that everybody is happy, but in the Loch Lomond and the Trossachs area there is substantial support for our moving ahead with this measure. There is less support overall for such a measure in the Cairngorms, as was mentioned by other members. I acknowledge that there is less enthusiasm in the Cairngorms, but we need to consider bringing people together to discuss the issues. The national park legislation must contain enabling legislation that is appropriate to different areas.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank Sylvia Jackson for initiating this debate. Every speech earlier this afternoon was prefaced by the phrase, \"I wish we could have been talking about something else.\" Well, here is an important subject with practical significance for the future of Scotland.

There is widespread agreement about the need for a national park, but I will respond to some of the specific questions that have been raised. This is not a new issue; it has been with us for a long time. It is not a mark of haste to suggest that it should be one of the priorities for an incoming Scottish Parliament.

For centuries, Loch Lomond and the Trossachs have been celebrated for their outstanding scenic qualities. The area supports a rich mix of water, wild land, forest, woodland, farmland and people. It is an exceptional landscape throughout the year and is of the highest importance, both nationally and internationally, in terms of natural heritage.

To those who suggest that a national park would create pressures, I say that there are already pressures. The real question that we must address is how to manage existing problems in an integrated and effective way. Somewhere in the region of 5 million people visit Loch Lomond and the Trossachs each summer. Many of them are stopping locally, but many are staying for a longer period. Many of them arrive by car: about 93 per cent of visitors travel privately, the vast majority by car. Mr Monteith's comments about parking and infrastructure are absolutely critical and must be addressed.

The west Highland way, which was mentioned by Fergus Ewing, attracts more than 50,000 walkers per year. There are already problems in Loch Lomond and the Trossachs. Robin Harper was absolutely correct with his comments on managing the critical and carrying capacities of the area, but we need a mechanism to do that. Although we do not currently have such a mechanism, the national park may provide us with one.

I offer one last snapshot of the issue's importance. Around 70 per cent of Scotland's population can travel to Loch Lomond and the Trossachs in less than an hour. That is an awful lot of us for a day trip, and does not include visitors from abroad.

Since the election of the Labour Government in 1997, we have made substantial progress. Scottish Natural Heritage has carried out a huge amount of research, in two phases. Initially, people were asked to give their views; those consulted included local authorities, community councils, public agencies and everyone in the area who was interested. Reviews of national park structures elsewhere were commissioned, and the experience—which Mr Raffan mentioned—both nationally within the UK and internationally, was considered. A huge number of meetings were also held. In the second phase of the consultation, more than 10,000 copies of Scottish Natural Heritage's proposals and consultation paper were issued.

A great deal of consultation has been carried out. That does not mean that everybody is happy, but in the Loch Lomond and the Trossachs area there is substantial support for our moving ahead with this measure.

There is less support overall for such a measure in the Cairngorms, as was mentioned by other members. I acknowledge that there is less enthusiasm in the Cairngorms, but we need to consider bringing people together to discuss the issues. The national park legislation must contain enabling legislation that is appropriate to different areas.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:13.3570755+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C704278", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 178.0, "ContributionID": 704278, "EditedText": "Will Mrs Mulligan give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mrs Mulligan give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:00:59.8834011+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C704319", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 272.0, "ContributionID": 704319, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:00:59.8834011+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C704197", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26607, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26607, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan (Falkirk West): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 6.0, "ContributionID": 704197, "EditedText": "On a point of order, Mr Presiding Officer. I wonder whether you could use your good influence to ensure that we are given adequate notice of the business that we are about to discuss. Yesterday, when I asked at the chamber office for a copy of the motions and amendments that we would be discussing today, I was told that they were not available. A business bulletin was published this morning, which details the motions and some of the amendments that are to be debated today, but at the last minute we have been handed—by one of the Parliament's staff—a copy of subsequent amendments. I do not blame the members who lodged those later amendments; I understand why they lodged them. However, the original motions should surely have been lodged so as to give us greater opportunity to propose amendments to them. That raises the general question of the lack of notice, even of the meetings of the Parliament. Mr Presiding Officer, can you ensure that we are given more than a week's notice of meetings, and more than one day's notice of motions and amendments?", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order, Mr Presiding Officer. I wonder whether you could use your good influence to ensure that we are given adequate notice of the business that we are about to discuss. Yesterday, when I asked at the chamber office for a copy of the motions and amendments that we would be discussing today, I was told that they were not available. A business bulletin was published this morning, which details the motions and some of the amendments that are to be debated today, but at the last minute we have been handed—by one of the Parliament's staff—a copy of subsequent amendments.

I do not blame the members who lodged those later amendments; I understand why they lodged them. However, the original motions should surely have been lodged so as to give us greater opportunity to propose amendments to them. That raises the general question of the lack of notice, even of the meetings of the Parliament. Mr Presiding Officer, can you ensure that we are given more than a week's notice of meetings, and more than one day's notice of motions and amendments?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704203", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26607, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26607, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 15.0, "ContributionID": 704203, "EditedText": "Wednesday 9 June 1999", "EditedTextHTML": "Wednesday 9 June 1999

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C704205", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26607, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26607, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell (South of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 18.0, "ContributionID": 704205, "EditedText": "I do not want to get a reputation for moving amendments or for being negative about business motions. I propose a technical change to motion S1M-35 and have lodged motion S1M-41, which deals with information technology and office equipment. We were advised that those matters could not be covered by the allowances motion because they did not come under the heading of allowances. However, all parties felt that information technology should form part of today's debate, as there will be support for members in that area. Accordingly, and with Mr McCabe's agreement, I seek permission for debate on that issue to be included in this afternoon's business, as was originally intended. I move amendment S1M-35.1, to insert after \"Tuesday 8 June 1999\", \"motion S1M-41 in the name of Michael Russell to be debated together with S1M-40 also in the name of Michael Russell.\"", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not want to get a reputation for moving amendments or for being negative about business motions. I propose a technical change to motion S1M-35 and have lodged motion S1M-41, which deals with information technology and office equipment. We were advised that those matters could not be covered by the allowances motion because they did not come under the heading of allowances. However, all parties felt that information technology should form part of today's debate, as there will be support for members in that area. Accordingly, and with Mr McCabe's agreement, I seek permission for debate on that issue to be included in this afternoon's business, as was originally intended.

I move amendment S1M-35.1, to insert after \"Tuesday 8 June 1999\",

\"motion S1M-41 in the name of Michael Russell to be debated together with S1M-40 also in the name of Michael Russell.\"

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C704206", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26607, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26607, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 20.0, "ContributionID": 704206, "EditedText": "Does anyone want to speak against the amendment? If not, I call Mr McCabe.", "EditedTextHTML": "Does anyone want to speak against the amendment? If not, I call Mr McCabe.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704215", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26607, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26607, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 35.0, "ContributionID": 704215, "EditedText": "Motion S1M-41 in the name of Michael Russell to be debated together with S1M-40 also in the name of Michael Russell.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion S1M-41 in the name of Michael Russell to be debated together with S1M-40 also in the name of Michael Russell.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704218", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26607, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26607, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 38.0, "ContributionID": 704218, "EditedText": "At 10.30 am, a statement by the First Minister on legislation in the UK Parliament about devolved matters followed no later than 11.00 am by a debate on the Consultative Steering Group report and draft Information Strategy; the remaining business to remain as set out in the business motion of 2 June.", "EditedTextHTML": "At 10.30 am, a statement by the First Minister on legislation in the UK Parliament about devolved matters followed no later than 11.00 am by a debate on the Consultative Steering Group report and draft Information Strategy; the remaining business to remain as set out in the business motion of 2 June.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C704228", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Committees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26608, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 39.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 39.0, "ID": 26608, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 66.0, "ContributionID": 704228, "EditedText": "If any further members want to contribute to the debate, I would be grateful if they would indicate that now.", "EditedTextHTML": "If any further members want to contribute to the debate, I would be grateful if they would indicate that now.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2056E57P84C704221", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Committees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26608, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 39.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 39.0, "ID": 26608, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James", "ID": 2056, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "James Douglas-Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Lord James Douglas-Hamilton (Lothians) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 47.0, "ContributionID": 704221, "EditedText": "We warmly welcome Mr Tom McCabe's motion. However, perhaps it was a slip of the tongue when he referred to the Scottish National party and the Scottish Labour party, but merely to the Conservative party. We are the Scottish Conservative party; we have a devolved, autonomous structure and our decisions are made in Scotland. For the Parliament to work effectively, we must establish powerful committees to give it teeth. The mandatory committees and the subject committees will have key roles to play and will be able to recommend changes whenever necessary. The Audit Committee, for example, will be able to play much the same role as the powerful Public Accounts Committee in the House of Commons. The Procedures Committee could no doubt consider whether Scotland's First Minister should be subjected to a First Minister's question time, which at present the standing orders are sparing him. The Parliament will be entitled to change standing orders if it so chooses. I should mention one other matter, which is covered by Andrew Wilson's motion. I believe that, if the committee system is to work well, it should reflect the interests of the whole of Scotland and be prepared to move around Scotland. In our manifesto, we proposed that we should build on the precedent of the Scottish Grand Committee and move committees around Scotland to seek advice from relevant bodies. The committees would then be able to hold public meetings, at which local people could contribute ideas and question their elected representatives. That would bring government much closer to the people, and make it easier for individuals to make their representations. We support the motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "We warmly welcome Mr Tom McCabe's motion. However, perhaps it was a slip of the tongue when he referred to the Scottish National party and the Scottish Labour party, but merely to the Conservative party. We are the Scottish Conservative party; we have a devolved, autonomous structure and our decisions are made in Scotland.

For the Parliament to work effectively, we must establish powerful committees to give it teeth. The mandatory committees and the subject committees will have key roles to play and will be able to recommend changes whenever necessary. The Audit Committee, for example, will be able to play much the same role as the powerful Public Accounts Committee in the House of Commons. The Procedures Committee could no doubt consider whether Scotland's First Minister should be subjected to a First Minister's question time, which at present the standing orders are sparing him. The Parliament will be entitled to change standing orders if it so chooses.

I should mention one other matter, which is covered by Andrew Wilson's motion. I believe that, if the committee system is to work well, it should reflect the interests of the whole of Scotland and be prepared to move around Scotland. In our manifesto, we proposed that we should build on the precedent of the Scottish Grand Committee and move committees around Scotland to seek advice from relevant bodies. The committees would then be able to hold public meetings, at which local people could contribute ideas and question their elected representatives. That would bring government much closer to the people, and make it easier for individuals to make their representations. We support the motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C704244", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 105.0, "ContributionID": 704244, "EditedText": "Order. The member must resume her seat when I am on my feet. Interventions must be brief and that intervention was quite long enough. If you wish to speak, you should press the button and I will call you to speak.", "EditedTextHTML": "Order. The member must resume her seat when I am on my feet. Interventions must be brief and that intervention was quite long enough. If you wish to speak, you should press the button and I will call you to speak.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2228E151P202C704219", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Committees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26608, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 39.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 39.0, "ID": 26608, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McCabe, Tom", "ID": 2228, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Tom McCabe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Business Manager (Mr Tom McCabe): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 41.0, "ContributionID": 704219, "EditedText": "Motion S1M-37 has been lodged following extensive discussion by the Parliamentary Bureau about the size of the mandatory committees that are required to be established under the standing orders of this Parliament. In addition, the bureau has discussed the number and range of subject committees that it is proposed should be established to scrutinise the work of the Scottish Executive. It may assist members if I make it clear at this stage that, if the Parliament accepts the motion, the Parliamentary Bureau will bring forward a further motion specifying which members should serve on which committees. As members may be aware, the standing orders prescribe that committees should have no fewer than five and no more than 15 members. The proposals before the chamber are that the European Committee and the Equal Opportunities Committee should consist of 13 members, that the Finance Committee and the Audit Committee should consist of 11 members, and that the Procedures Committee, the Standards Committee, the Public Petitions Committee and the Subordinate Legislation Committee should consist of seven members each. All the subject committees will consist of 11 members each. The proposals will ensure that the committees are of an adequate size to undertake the tasks falling to them and will enable a proper balance of representation across the parties in the Parliament to be achieved. For example, it is anticipated that, in a committee of seven members, the Scottish Labour party would have three members, the Scottish National party would have two members, and the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats would have one member each. In committees of 11 members, the Scottish Labour party would have five members, the SNP would have three members, and the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats would have either one or two members. Provision will be made in the motion on membership to allow each independent member to participate in one committee. For all of us, whether our background is Westminster, local government or somewhere else entirely, the Scottish Parliament committee structure will be unprecedented. The consultative steering group, whose recommendations we shall discuss more generally tomorrow, suggested the all-purpose committee structure, which will combine the roles of select and standing committees. Committee members can expect to become experts in their particular subject area as they scrutinise legislation and examine the Executive's action in that area. Because of that, it is fair to say that the work of the committees is likely to be both challenging and rewarding. Members will note that the motion proposes that the remit of the subject committees should reflect the distribution of responsibilities among ministers of the Scottish Executive. That is to ensure that those ministers, their staff and the bodies responsible to them are readily accountable to the Parliament. The division of responsibility will facilitate the Parliament's work in scrutinising the activities of the Executive and in considering the policy proposals brought forward by individual ministers. It is worth stressing the important role that committees will play in our work. Under the terms of our standing orders, committees are responsible for scrutinising the work of the Executive, but also for considering any proposals for legislation on matters within their competence. That includes primary legislation in the form of bills brought forward by the Executive and subordinate legislation in the form of orders requiring the Parliament's approval. Individual committees will also be able to consider any European Community legislation referred to them by the European Committee. Committees may consider the need for reform of the law which relates to, or affects, any matter within their competence, and they may initiate bills on any competent matter. Certain mandatory committees have particular roles to play. I have referred to the role of the European Committee in considering proposals for European Communities legislation and in referring such matters to the Parliamentary Bureau for consideration by other committees as appropriate. The Finance Committee will have particular responsibility for scrutinising the public expenditure proposals put forward by the Scottish Executive. The Audit Committee will have the important task of considering any accounts laid before the Parliament and any report concerning public expenditure laid by the Auditor General for Scotland. Those are important tasks, which committees will need to develop and take forward. Committees will play a key role in engaging civic society in the work of the Parliament—I will say more about that later. To assist them in that process, committees may want to appoint reporters. A reporter will be a member of a committee who is chosen to bring together a committee report on a particular subject; the reporter is likely to become the focus of external representations to that committee. Although being a reporter will involve an additional work load, I trust that the opportunity will be welcomed enthusiastically. I hope that I have given members a flavour of what the committees will be about, whether they are subject committees or the mandatory committees that the standing orders oblige us to establish. The consultative steering group report recognised that committees would become a focal point for the consideration of a wide range of policy issues. Members will be expected to develop expertise in the subjects before them. To do that, they will want to draw on the expertise of many organisations and individuals outside the Parliament. Committees will be able to appoint advisers to assist them in their work and may also want to examine various ways of drawing in evidence from interested bodies. That may be through formal evidence-gathering sessions, but other approaches may be possible and may prove more effective in obtaining views. Whatever options are preferred, it will be important that members take the time to build up their knowledge on the subjects for which they are responsible. Making a success of the Parliament's committee system will be important for the success of the Parliament as a whole. The proposals before the Parliament today will create a robust framework to take our work forward. I move,That the Parliament shall establish the following committees: European Committee; remit as set out in rule 6.8. Maximum 13 members. Equal Opportunities Committee; remit as set out in rule 6.9. Maximum 13 members. Finance Committee; remit as set out in rule 6.6. Maximum 11 members. Audit Committee; remit as set out in rule 6.7. Maximum 11 members. Procedures Committee; remit as set out in rule 6.4. Maximum 7 members. Standards Committee; remit as set out in rule 6.5. Maximum 7 members. Public Petitions Committee; remit as set out in rule 6.10. Maximum 7 members. Subordinate Legislation Committee; remit as set out in rule 6.11. Maximum 7 members. Justice and Home Affairs Committee; remit: to consider and report on matters relating to the administration of civil and criminal justice, the reform of the civil and criminal law and such other matters as fall within the responsibility of the Minister for Justice. Maximum 11 members. Education, Culture and Sport Committee; remit: to consider and report on matters relating to school and pre-school education, the arts, culture and sport and such other matters as fall within the responsibility of the Minister for Children and Education. Maximum 11 members. Social Inclusion, Housing and Voluntary Sector Committee; remit: to consider and report on matters relating to housing and the voluntary sector and such other matters as fall within the responsibility of the Minister for Communities other than local government. Maximum 11 members. Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee; remit: to consider and report on matters relating to the Scottish economy, industry, tourism, training and further and higher education and such other matters as fall within the responsibility of the Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning. Maximum 11 members. Health and Community Care Committee; remit: to consider and report on matters relating to health policy and the National Health Service in Scotland and such other matters as fall within the responsibility of the Minister for Health and Community Care. Maximum 11 members. Transport and the Environment Committee; remit: to consider and report on matters relating to transport, the environment and natural heritage and such other matters as fall within the responsibility of the Minister for Transport and the Environment. Maximum 11 members. Rural Affairs Committee; remit: to consider and report on matters relating to rural development, agriculture and fisheries and such other matters as fall within the responsibility of the Minister for Rural Affairs. Maximum 11 members. Local Government Committee; remit: to consider and report on matters relating to local government. Maximum 11 members.The Justice and Home Affairs; Education, Culture and Sport; Social Inclusion, Housing and Voluntary Sector; Enterprise and Lifelong Learning; Health and Community Care; Transport and the Environment; Rural Affairs; and Local Government committees shall be established for the whole session of the Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion S1M-37 has been lodged following extensive discussion by the Parliamentary Bureau about the size of the mandatory committees that are required to be established under the standing orders of this Parliament. In addition, the bureau has discussed the number and range of subject committees that it is proposed should be established to scrutinise the work of the Scottish Executive. It may assist members if I make it clear at this stage that, if the Parliament accepts the motion, the Parliamentary Bureau will bring forward a further motion specifying which members should serve on which committees.

As members may be aware, the standing orders prescribe that committees should have no fewer than five and no more than 15 members. The proposals before the chamber are that the European Committee and the Equal Opportunities Committee should consist of 13 members, that the Finance Committee and the Audit Committee should consist of 11 members, and that the Procedures Committee, the Standards Committee, the Public Petitions Committee and the Subordinate Legislation Committee should consist of seven members each. All the subject committees will consist of 11 members each.

The proposals will ensure that the committees are of an adequate size to undertake the tasks falling to them and will enable a proper balance of representation across the parties in the Parliament to be achieved. For example, it is anticipated that, in a committee of seven members, the Scottish Labour party would have three members, the Scottish National party would have two members, and the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats would have one member each. In committees of 11 members, the Scottish Labour party would have five members, the SNP would have three members, and the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats would have either one or two members. Provision will be made in the motion on membership to allow each independent member to participate in one committee.

For all of us, whether our background is Westminster, local government or somewhere else entirely, the Scottish Parliament committee structure will be unprecedented. The consultative steering group, whose recommendations we shall discuss more generally tomorrow, suggested the all-purpose committee structure, which will combine the roles of select and standing committees.

Committee members can expect to become experts in their particular subject area as they scrutinise legislation and examine the Executive's action in that area. Because of that, it is fair to say that the work of the committees is likely to be both challenging and rewarding.

Members will note that the motion proposes that the remit of the subject committees should reflect the distribution of responsibilities among ministers of the Scottish Executive. That is to ensure that those ministers, their staff and the bodies responsible to them are readily accountable to the Parliament. The division of responsibility will facilitate the Parliament's work in scrutinising the activities of the Executive and in considering the policy proposals brought forward by individual ministers. It is worth stressing the important role that committees will play in our work.

Under the terms of our standing orders, committees are responsible for scrutinising the work of the Executive, but also for considering any proposals for legislation on matters within their competence. That includes primary legislation in the form of bills brought forward by the Executive and subordinate legislation in the form of orders requiring the Parliament's approval. Individual committees will also be able to consider any European Community legislation referred to them by the European Committee. Committees may consider the need for reform of the law which relates to, or affects, any matter within their competence, and they may initiate bills on any competent matter.

Certain mandatory committees have particular roles to play. I have referred to the role of the European Committee in considering proposals for European Communities legislation and in referring such matters to the Parliamentary Bureau for consideration by other committees as appropriate. The Finance Committee will have particular responsibility for scrutinising the public expenditure proposals put forward by the Scottish Executive. The Audit Committee will have the important task of considering any accounts laid before the Parliament and any report concerning public expenditure laid by the Auditor General for Scotland. Those are important tasks, which committees will need to develop and take forward.

Committees will play a key role in engaging civic society in the work of the Parliament—I will say more about that later. To assist them in that process, committees may want to appoint reporters. A reporter will be a member of a committee who is chosen to bring together a committee report on a particular subject; the reporter is likely to become the focus of external representations to that committee. Although being a reporter will involve an additional work load, I trust that the opportunity will be welcomed enthusiastically.

I hope that I have given members a flavour of what the committees will be about, whether they are subject committees or the mandatory committees that the standing orders oblige us to establish.

The consultative steering group report recognised that committees would become a focal point for the consideration of a wide range of policy issues. Members will be expected to develop expertise in the subjects before them. To do that, they will want to draw on the expertise of many organisations and individuals outside the Parliament. Committees will be able to appoint advisers to assist them in their work and may also want to examine various ways of drawing in evidence from interested bodies. That may be through formal evidence-gathering sessions, but other approaches may be possible and may prove more effective in obtaining views. Whatever options are preferred, it will be important that members take the time to build up their knowledge on the subjects for which they are responsible.

Making a success of the Parliament's committee system will be important for the success of the Parliament as a whole. The proposals before the Parliament today will create a robust framework to take our work forward.

I move,

That the Parliament shall establish the following committees:

European Committee; remit as set out in rule 6.8. Maximum 13 members.
Equal Opportunities Committee; remit as set out in rule 6.9. Maximum 13 members.
Finance Committee; remit as set out in rule 6.6. Maximum 11 members.
Audit Committee; remit as set out in rule 6.7. Maximum 11 members.
Procedures Committee; remit as set out in rule 6.4. Maximum 7 members.
Standards Committee; remit as set out in rule 6.5. Maximum 7 members.
Public Petitions Committee; remit as set out in rule 6.10. Maximum 7 members.
Subordinate Legislation Committee; remit as set out in rule 6.11. Maximum 7 members.
Justice and Home Affairs Committee; remit: to consider and report on matters relating to the administration of civil and criminal justice, the reform of the civil and criminal law and such other matters as fall within the responsibility of the Minister for Justice. Maximum 11 members.
Education, Culture and Sport Committee; remit: to consider and report on matters relating to school and pre-school education, the arts, culture and sport and such other matters as fall within the responsibility of the Minister for Children and Education. Maximum 11 members.
Social Inclusion, Housing and Voluntary Sector Committee; remit: to consider and report on matters relating to housing and the voluntary sector and such other matters as fall within the responsibility of the Minister for Communities other than local government. Maximum 11 members.
Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee; remit: to consider and report on matters relating to the Scottish economy, industry, tourism, training and further and higher education and such other matters as fall within the responsibility of the Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning. Maximum 11 members.
Health and Community Care Committee; remit: to consider and report on matters relating to health policy and the National Health Service in Scotland and such other matters as fall within the responsibility of the Minister for Health and Community Care. Maximum 11 members.
Transport and the Environment Committee; remit: to consider and report on matters relating to transport, the environment and natural heritage and such other matters as fall within the responsibility of the Minister for Transport and the Environment. Maximum 11 members.
Rural Affairs Committee; remit: to consider and report on matters relating to rural development, agriculture and fisheries and such other matters as fall within the responsibility of the Minister for Rural Affairs. Maximum 11 members.
Local Government Committee; remit: to consider and report on matters relating to local government. Maximum 11 members.

The Justice and Home Affairs; Education, Culture and Sport; Social Inclusion, Housing and Voluntary Sector; Enterprise and Lifelong Learning; Health and Community Care; Transport and the Environment; Rural Affairs; and Local Government committees shall be established for the whole session of the Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C704225", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Committees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26608, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 39.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 39.0, "ID": 26608, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Keith Raffan (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 58.0, "ContributionID": 704225, "EditedText": "I welcome this motion, and I very much agree with what Mr Russell said. Committees are at the heart of this Parliament's work. They will not be the same as committees at Westminster, where they are a kind of addendum that was added 20 years ago. We are developing the Westminster committee structure. In effect, our committees are a hybrid between the select committees and standing committees at Westminster. They are both investigative and legislative. Indeed, committees in the Scottish Parliament go beyond that because they also have the ability to initiate legislation. That is one of my concerns over the numbers. Eleven is a fair number for an investigative or select committee; I am not sure that it is the right number for a standing committee, although accept the constraints that are imposed by the total membership of the Parliament. I understand from the consultative steering group report that other members, with the permission of the convener, will be able to speak at a committee, perhaps at the legislative stage, even if they are not able to vote. It is important that members who are not on particular committees, but who perhaps have a constituency or specialised interest, can speak at those committees. That would get round the numbers problem. I agree with Mr McCabe about the alignment of the committees with the ministries. They are aligned in every case except that of Ms Alexander's ministry, which has two committees. I do not want to undermine the importance of social inclusion, but it might have been better if social inclusion had been one of the ad hoc, so-called cross-cutting or cross-departmental committees. I certainly agree with Mr Gorrie that we must have that flexibility. One of my interests at Westminster was the issue of drug misuse. With the serious problem of drug misuse in Scotland, we badly need a cross-departmental–and cross-party– committee in this Parliament to consider that issue. It would cover health and community care, justice and home affairs, as well as education, the subject areas of a range of committees. Committees must have flexibility in undertaking one-day inquiries. For example, the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee might want to take evidence in a part of Scotland where there were serious factory closures. At Westminster, I was responsible for the select committee of which I was a member going outside Westminster for the first time. That was to hold a hearing in my constituency on an important factory closure that had an impact on the entire community. The chairman of the company had to give oral evidence in front of the work force. That was a salutary lesson for him, and it led to a very important and helpful package being given by Courtaulds to my constituency. I agree with what has been said today about the committees moving around the country. The importance of that was emphasised in the white paper and the consultative steering group report. It is important that the committees move around Scotland, both to visit and to take oral evidence. I am not sure that I would join Mr Wilson in asking for any of the committees to be permanently based away from the Parliament as I do not know how practical that would be. I am not averse to the idea and I am open to persuasion, but it is important that the committees are well publicised when they go around Scotland so that the public— in particular, schoolchildren—can attend. We must be as open and accessible as possible. I do not think that the issue of staffing and resources has been covered so far. If the committees are to be effective, they must be well resourced in terms of both staffing and funding. At times, it may not be in the Executive's interest for them to be as well resourced as I would like, but they are there to hold the Executive to account. If we are to be an effective democratic institution, the committees must have the human and financial resources that they require.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome this motion, and I very much agree with what Mr Russell said. Committees are at the heart of this Parliament's work. They will not be the same as committees at Westminster, where they are a kind of addendum that was added 20 years ago. We are developing the Westminster committee structure. In effect, our committees are a hybrid between the select committees and standing committees at Westminster. They are both investigative and legislative. Indeed, committees in the Scottish Parliament go beyond that because they also have the ability to initiate legislation.

That is one of my concerns over the numbers. Eleven is a fair number for an investigative or select committee; I am not sure that it is the right number for a standing committee, although accept the constraints that are imposed by the total membership of the Parliament. I understand from the consultative steering group report that other members, with the permission of the convener, will be able to speak at a committee, perhaps at the legislative stage, even if they are not able to vote. It is important that members who are not on particular committees, but who perhaps have a constituency or specialised interest, can speak at those committees. That would get round the numbers problem.

I agree with Mr McCabe about the alignment of the committees with the ministries. They are aligned in every case except that of Ms Alexander's ministry, which has two committees. I do not want to undermine the importance of social inclusion, but it might have been better if social inclusion had been one of the ad hoc, so-called cross-cutting or cross-departmental committees. I certainly agree with Mr Gorrie that we must have that flexibility. One of my interests at Westminster was the issue of drug misuse. With the serious problem of drug misuse in Scotland, we badly need a cross-departmental–and cross-party– committee in this Parliament to consider that issue. It would cover health and community care, justice and home affairs, as well as education, the subject areas of a range of committees.

Committees must have flexibility in undertaking one-day inquiries. For example, the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee might want to take evidence in a part of Scotland where there were serious factory closures. At Westminster, I was responsible for the select committee of which I was a member going outside Westminster for the first time. That was to hold a hearing in my constituency on an important factory closure that had an impact on the entire community. The chairman of the company had to give oral evidence in front of the work force. That was a salutary lesson for him, and it led to a very important and helpful package being given by Courtaulds to my constituency.

I agree with what has been said today about the committees moving around the country. The importance of that was emphasised in the white paper and the consultative steering group report. It is important that the committees move around Scotland, both to visit and to take oral evidence. I am not sure that I would join Mr Wilson in asking for any of the committees to be permanently based away from the Parliament as I do not know how practical that would be. I am not averse to the

idea and I am open to persuasion, but it is important that the committees are well publicised when they go around Scotland so that the public— in particular, schoolchildren—can attend. We must be as open and accessible as possible.

I do not think that the issue of staffing and resources has been covered so far. If the committees are to be effective, they must be well resourced in terms of both staffing and funding. At times, it may not be in the Executive's interest for them to be as well resourced as I would like, but they are there to hold the Executive to account. If we are to be an effective democratic institution, the committees must have the human and financial resources that they require.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C704226", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Committees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26608, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 39.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 39.0, "ID": 26608, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan (Glasgow) (SSP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 61.0, "ContributionID": 704226, "EditedText": "I was inspired to speak by James Douglas-Hamilton's intervention. There was also a slip of the tongue by Tom McCabe in relation to independent members. As he knows, no member was elected as an independent: Dennis was elected as the member for Falkirk West, I was elected as a Scottish Socialist party member and Robin was elected as a Scottish Green party member. I mention that so that we start off on the right foot and give each other the right titles, at least at the start of these debates. We might change titles during the course of the debates, but I am sure that that will be friendly. Mike Russell referred to the Parliamentary Bureau. We have been very grateful for the arrangement that provides informal briefings for the smaller parties. Would Mr McCabe agree that that should become a formalised arrangement, in case we ever fall out with anybody and they become less friendly? It is important that the smaller parties can be briefed on the Parliamentary Bureau's business. I hope that we can communicate the briefs of the committees to civic Scotland. In Stirling this morning, I had the pleasure of attending the Scottish Pensioners Forum conference, one group of many that want their views to be heard by this Parliament at an early stage. However, the remits of some of the committees would not make apparent whom such organisations should approach. It will be important that the remit of those committees is clear, as soon as they are established, so that interest groups, which have a wide range of issues to raise, are able to contact the right people in order to get us to fulfil the promises that we have made. Like other members, I feel that the ability of committees to travel throughout Scotland is very important. I hope that all of us recognise that we do not want an Edinburgh-centric Parliament; coming from Glasgow, I should say that we do not want a continuation of the Edinburgh-centric Parliament that we have had until now. We want to ensure that all parts of Scotland feel that this is their Parliament and that they have a part to play in making it work. I hope that we will not just pay lip service to this idea but that we will properly resource visits to different parts of Scotland, and that the areas that we visit are aware that we are doing so and are able to make proper representations to us.", "EditedTextHTML": "I was inspired to speak by James Douglas-Hamilton's intervention. There was also a slip of the tongue by Tom McCabe in relation to independent members. As he knows, no member was elected as an independent: Dennis was elected as the member for Falkirk West, I was elected as a Scottish Socialist party member and Robin was elected as a Scottish Green party member. I mention that so that we start off on the right foot and give each other the right titles, at least at the start of these debates. We might change titles during the course of the debates, but I am sure that that will be friendly.

Mike Russell referred to the Parliamentary Bureau. We have been very grateful for the arrangement that provides informal briefings for the smaller parties. Would Mr McCabe agree that that should become a formalised arrangement, in case we ever fall out with anybody and they become less friendly? It is important that the smaller parties can be briefed on the Parliamentary Bureau's business.

I hope that we can communicate the briefs of the committees to civic Scotland. In Stirling this morning, I had the pleasure of attending the Scottish Pensioners Forum conference, one group of many that want their views to be heard by this Parliament at an early stage. However, the remits of some of the committees would not make apparent whom such organisations should approach. It will be important that the remit of those committees is clear, as soon as they are established, so that interest groups, which have a wide range of issues to raise, are able to contact the right people in order to get us to fulfil the promises that we have made.

Like other members, I feel that the ability of committees to travel throughout Scotland is very important. I hope that all of us recognise that we do not want an Edinburgh-centric Parliament; coming from Glasgow, I should say that we do not want a continuation of the Edinburgh-centric Parliament that we have had until now. We want to ensure that all parts of Scotland feel that this is their Parliament and that they have a part to play in making it work. I hope that we will not just pay lip service to this idea but that we will properly resource visits to different parts of Scotland, and that the areas that we visit are aware that we are doing so and are able to make proper representations to us.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C704230", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Committees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26608, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 39.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 39.0, "ID": 26608, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Alex Salmond (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 72.0, "ContributionID": 704230, "EditedText": "The parliamentary record is a remarkable thing and tomorrow's Official Report will include Tommy Sheridan saying that he was inspired by James Douglas-Hamilton. That will be on record for all time. I want to make a brief speech on the question of inclusiveness. We have heard from a number of members about the importance of the Parliament including all Scotland and, in terms of the committees travelling around, basing their activities throughout Scotland and providing the maximum opportunity for participation, and I support that. We have also heard about the importance of civic Scotland, whether it is the pensioners' groups or other groups, having a focus by making representations to the committees and having a clearly identifiable method of doing that. However, one of the failings of the Parliament is that, as yet, not one member of the ethnic minority communities in Scotland was elected, and I would like the Equal Opportunities Committee to consider that at an early opportunity. A number of members of ethnic minorities stood for various parties, but none was elected. At an early sitting, the Equal Opportunities Committee should consider the possibility of co-option. I had a brief look at our standing orders and people would have to be co-opted as non-voting members, and I can understand that in terms of election and parliamentary procedure. In order to re-balance the Parliament and to ensure that it represents all Scotland, the Equal Opportunities Committee should consider the co-option of members of Scotland's ethnic minorities. I am sure that there are many capable people who would be willing to serve if we could develop such a procedure. At this stage, I would like some indication that cooption could be looked upon favourably and that the Equal Opportunities Committee will examine its feasibility.", "EditedTextHTML": "The parliamentary record is a remarkable thing and tomorrow's Official Report will include Tommy Sheridan saying that he was inspired by James Douglas-Hamilton. That will be on record for all time.

I want to make a brief speech on the question of inclusiveness. We have heard from a number of members about the importance of the Parliament including all Scotland and, in terms of the committees travelling around, basing their activities throughout Scotland and providing the maximum opportunity for participation, and I support that. We have also heard about the importance of civic Scotland, whether it is the pensioners' groups or other groups, having a focus by making representations to the committees and having a clearly identifiable method of doing that.

However, one of the failings of the Parliament is that, as yet, not one member of the ethnic minority communities in Scotland was elected, and I would like the Equal Opportunities Committee to consider that at an early opportunity. A number of members of ethnic minorities stood for various parties, but none was elected. At an early sitting, the Equal Opportunities Committee should consider the possibility of co-option. I had a brief look at our standing orders and people would have to be co-opted as non-voting members, and I can understand that in terms of election and parliamentary procedure. In order to re-balance the Parliament and to ensure that it represents all Scotland, the Equal Opportunities Committee should consider the co-option of members of Scotland's ethnic minorities. I am sure that there are many capable people who would be willing to serve if we could develop such a procedure. At this stage, I would like some indication that cooption could be looked upon favourably and that the Equal Opportunities Committee will examine its feasibility.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C704235", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Committees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26608, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 39.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 39.0, "ID": 26608, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan (Falkirk West) rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 85.0, "ContributionID": 704235, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2038E191P344C704236", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Committees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26608, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 39.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 39.0, "ID": 26608, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Smith, Iain", "ID": 2038, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Iain Smith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Iain Smith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 87.0, "ContributionID": 704236, "EditedText": "I do not have time to give way.Civil servants will be able to provide factual information to the committees and to assist the work of the committees. We have to work together in order to ensure that ministers are not in any way seen to be blocking committees, as it is important that the committees work effectively. Donald also mentioned sub-committees and other committees that might consider cross-cutting issues, such as youth or drugs, which Keith Raffan referred to. The standing orders provide for subcommittees to be established by the committees either acting alone or jointly. They also provide for joint working between committees in order for cross-cutting issues to be considered. It is important that certain issues are looked at across committees rather than within only one, although that will be a matter for the committees to consider. Some cross-cutting issues will be dealt with by a committee that has been determined a lead committee, although other committees may wish to present evidence and to be involved in the lead committee's deliberations, and those issues must also be addressed. The standing orders also provide for members who are not members of a particular committee to attend and to speak at committees, although they will not be able to vote. That should address members' concerns about not being able to raise particular constituency or personal interests at relevant committees of which they are not members. Tommy Sheridan's question about briefings on the work of the Parliamentary Bureau is not a matter for business managers, but for the Presiding Officer, and I would not dare to step into the Presiding Officer's role on that matter. Participation is an important aspect of the committees and some members rightly raised that point in the debate. The partnership agreement between the Liberal Democrats and the Labour party supports the principle of the establishment of a civic forum and we need to examine how to go about achieving that. I am afraid that I do not have an answer for David Davidson about advisory committees, but I am sure that the relevant ministers will supply a written answer in due course. This has been a useful debate. The committees will form an extremely important part of parliamentary procedure. I look forward to their establishment and to the conveners and deputy conveners being elected in the next few weeks, so that, when we come back after the summer recess, the committees will be fully up and running and will provide a chance for those of us in the Executive and all members to participate fully in the work of this Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not have time to give way.

Civil servants will be able to provide factual information to the committees and to assist the work of the committees. We have to work together in order to ensure that ministers are not in any way seen to be blocking committees, as it is important that the committees work effectively.

Donald also mentioned sub-committees and other committees that might consider cross-cutting issues, such as youth or drugs, which Keith Raffan referred to. The standing orders provide for subcommittees to be established by the committees either acting alone or jointly. They also provide for joint working between committees in order for cross-cutting issues to be considered.

It is important that certain issues are looked at across committees rather than within only one, although that will be a matter for the committees to consider. Some cross-cutting issues will be dealt with by a committee that has been determined a lead committee, although other committees may wish to present evidence and to be involved in the lead committee's deliberations, and those issues must also be addressed.

The standing orders also provide for members who are not members of a particular committee to attend and to speak at committees, although they will not be able to vote. That should address members' concerns about not being able to raise particular constituency or personal interests at relevant committees of which they are not members.

Tommy Sheridan's question about briefings on the work of the Parliamentary Bureau is not a matter for business managers, but for the Presiding Officer, and I would not dare to step into the Presiding Officer's role on that matter.

Participation is an important aspect of the committees and some members rightly raised that point in the debate. The partnership agreement between the Liberal Democrats and the Labour party supports the principle of the establishment of a civic forum and we need to examine how to go about achieving that.

I am afraid that I do not have an answer for David Davidson about advisory committees, but I am sure that the relevant ministers will supply a written answer in due course.

This has been a useful debate. The committees will form an extremely important part of parliamentary procedure. I look forward to their establishment and to the conveners and deputy conveners being elected in the next few weeks, so that, when we come back after the summer recess, the committees will be fully up and running and will provide a chance for those of us in the Executive and all members to participate fully in the work of this Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1782E69P279C704239", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Oldfather, Irene", "ID": 1782, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Cunninghame South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Irene Oldfather", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Irene Oldfather (Cunninghame South) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 95.0, "ContributionID": 704239, "EditedText": "Listening to Mr Russell, I cannot contain myself any longer. I believe it was in October last year that Mr Russell was adopted as the Scottish National party candidate for the Cunninghame South constituency, where he stood against me. In the seven months before the election, if the people of Cunninghame South saw him on more than five occasions we were very lucky. On occasions the SNP were reduced to playing tapes of Mr Russell on the main street. He was notable by his absence, and that must have been frustrating for people in his party.", "EditedTextHTML": "Listening to Mr Russell, I cannot contain myself any longer. I believe it was in October last year that Mr Russell was adopted as the Scottish National party candidate for the Cunninghame South constituency, where he stood against me. In the seven months before the election, if the people of Cunninghame South saw him on more than five occasions we were very lucky. On occasions the SNP were reduced to playing tapes of Mr Russell on the main street. He was notable by his absence, and that must have been frustrating for people in his party.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2100E64P254C704246", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Home Robertson, John", "ID": 2100, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Lothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "John Home Robertson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr John Home Robertson (East Lothian) (Lab) rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 109.0, "ContributionID": 704246, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1805E13P109C704250", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Whitefield, Karen", "ID": 1805, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Airdrie and Shotts" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Karen Whitefield", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Karen Whitefield (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 118.0, "ContributionID": 704250, "EditedText": "On 6 May, I was elected by the people of Airdrie and Shotts and the surrounding villages to provide them with a strong voice in the Scottish Parliament. I am proud to represent the constituency in which I have lived all my life. I know the constituency and I care about it. I understand my constituents' concerns and problems and, most important, I identify with them and their hopes and aspirations. My constituency in the heart of Lanarkshire— where people were once proud of the vital role that they played in Scottish society—has been destroyed. I want our new Parliament to play its role in rebuilding Airdrie and Shotts. As I grew up, I watched as my parents' generation was thrown prematurely on the scrap heap as the Tory Government destroyed our coal mining and steel working traditions. I know the reality for my generation of growing up in a cycle of poverty, deprived of the hopes and educational opportunities that could offer a better life. When the people of Airdrie and Shotts voted, they knew exactly what they wanted from a Scottish Parliament and the representative they elected. They wanted a Parliament that would improve and invest in their schools, as Labour will. They wanted fewer children in every class and more teachers and classroom assistants. Labour will deliver that. They wanted new schools. They knew that Labour would also deliver that. They wanted policies that would bring an end to the cycle of poverty in Airdrie and Shotts. That cycle means that one in every five of our children grows up in poverty, and that one in every three families lives on state benefits. That is why the new deal is being embraced in my constituency. The people working with the Airdrie citizens advice bureau whom I met yesterday believe that they are well on their way to gaining skills and qualifications that will make them employable.", "EditedTextHTML": "

On 6 May, I was elected by the people of Airdrie and Shotts and the surrounding villages to provide them with a strong voice in the Scottish Parliament.

I am proud to represent the constituency in which I have lived all my life. I know the constituency and I care about it. I understand my constituents' concerns and problems and, most important, I identify with them and their hopes and aspirations.

My constituency in the heart of Lanarkshire— where people were once proud of the vital role that they played in Scottish society—has been destroyed. I want our new Parliament to play its role in rebuilding Airdrie and Shotts.

As I grew up, I watched as my parents' generation was thrown prematurely on the scrap heap as the Tory Government destroyed our coal mining and steel working traditions. I know the reality for my generation of growing up in a cycle of poverty, deprived of the hopes and educational opportunities that could offer a better life.

When the people of Airdrie and Shotts voted, they knew exactly what they wanted from a Scottish Parliament and the representative they elected. They wanted a Parliament that would improve and invest in their schools, as Labour will. They wanted fewer children in every class and more teachers and classroom assistants. Labour will deliver that. They wanted new schools. They knew that Labour would also deliver that. They wanted policies that would bring an end to the cycle of poverty in Airdrie and Shotts. That cycle means that one in every five of our children grows up in poverty, and that one in every three families lives on state benefits. That is why the new deal is being embraced in my constituency. The people working with the Airdrie citizens advice bureau whom I met yesterday believe that they are well on their way to gaining skills and qualifications that will make them employable.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C704251", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan (Glasgow) (SSP) rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 120.0, "ContributionID": 704251, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C704254", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 126.0, "ContributionID": 704254, "EditedText": "I was about to say that I hope Karen Whitefield will address herself to the amendment that she is moving.", "EditedTextHTML": "I was about to say that I hope Karen Whitefield will address herself to the amendment that she is moving.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1805E13P109C704257", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Whitefield, Karen", "ID": 1805, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Airdrie and Shotts" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Karen Whitefield", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Karen Whitefield: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 132.0, "ContributionID": 704257, "EditedText": "I have already made it clear that I will not allow members to intervene. In New Zealand, where a similar voting system is in operation and where regional list and constituency members are elected, the additional work loads of constituency members are recognised and they are allowed additional resources to deal with them. That does not discriminate against elected members, but supports them and allows them to carry out their duties to the best of their abilities. The people of Airdrie, Shotts and the surrounding villages will visit my constituency office when it is set up in Shotts and they will attend my 11 surgeries, which start next weekend. Volunteers and voluntary organisations will attend my open days and they will expect me to work on their behalf to resolve the difficulties that they encounter and to represent their interests at all times. The people of Airdrie and Shotts gave me their mandate. I am honoured to be their representative, I will work tirelessly on their behalf for the next four years and they will hold me to account. I do not want taxpayers' money to be spent on setting up a second constituency office or a second MSP to take on casework with which I am already dealing. I believe that I am more than capable of representing all the people of Airdrie and Shotts and so do my constituents—that is why for every vote received by my closest opponent, I received more than two. Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con)rose—", "EditedTextHTML": "I have already made it clear that I will not allow members to intervene.

In New Zealand, where a similar voting system is in operation and where regional list and constituency members are elected, the additional work loads of constituency members are recognised and they are allowed additional resources to deal with them. That does not discriminate against elected members, but supports them and allows them to carry out their duties to the best of their abilities.

The people of Airdrie, Shotts and the surrounding villages will visit my constituency office when it is set up in Shotts and they will attend my 11 surgeries, which start next weekend. Volunteers and voluntary organisations will attend my open days and they will expect me to work on their behalf to resolve the difficulties that they encounter and to represent their interests at all times.

The people of Airdrie and Shotts gave me their mandate. I am honoured to be their representative, I will work tirelessly on their behalf for the next four years and they will hold me to account. I do not want taxpayers' money to be spent on setting up a second constituency office or a second MSP to take on casework with which I am already dealing. I believe that I am more than capable of representing all the people of Airdrie and Shotts and so do my constituents—that is why for every vote received by my closest opponent, I received more than two.

Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con)

rose—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2234E7P20C704262", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Aitken, Bill", "ID": 2234, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bill Aitken", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bill Aitken (Glasgow) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 144.0, "ContributionID": 704262, "EditedText": "Mr returning officer—", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr returning officer—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C704263", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 146.0, "ContributionID": 704263, "EditedText": "I may be many things but I am not that.", "EditedTextHTML": "I may be many things but I am not that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1837E108P186C704271", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mulligan, Mary", "ID": 1837, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Linlithgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Mulligan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Mary Mulligan (Linlithgow) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 164.0, "ContributionID": 704271, "EditedText": "I, too, welcome the work that has gone into the proposals that are before us today and the transparency of the system that we hope to take on. It is important that people do not feel about our allowances the same way as people felt about the allowances that were previously given to the people in our positions. This is a positive move. I and all my colleagues recognise that constituency and list MSPs are of equal value to the public. However, their roles over the next four years will be weighted differently. Constituency members will be recognised by local people and organisations, and will be the first port of call as a matter of course. We have to recognise the practicalities: most people in a constituency will come to the constituency MSP first.", "EditedTextHTML": "I, too, welcome the work that has gone into the proposals that are before us today and the transparency of the system that we hope to take on. It is important that people do not feel about our allowances the same way as people felt about the allowances that were previously given to the people in our positions. This is a positive move.

I and all my colleagues recognise that constituency and list MSPs are of equal value to the public. However, their roles over the next four years will be weighted differently. Constituency members will be recognised by local people and organisations, and will be the first port of call as a matter of course. We have to recognise the practicalities: most people in a constituency will come to the constituency MSP first.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1837E108P186C704273", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mulligan, Mary", "ID": 1837, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Linlithgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Mulligan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Mulligan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 168.0, "ContributionID": 704273, "EditedText": "No.It would be confusing and wasteful if other members appeared to be doing exactly the same job. It has been said that if a Tory voter, for example, has a problem, they will want to go to a Tory MSP, but such a course is unnecessary: problems are not party political and we should not be playing games with the issues that people raise with us. I will represent all Linlithgow constituents, whether they voted for me or not. I am sure that other constituency MSPs feel the same way. We must recognise that if people go to a list MSP—I would not want to stop them doing so if that was their choice—they will be supported. Amendment S1M-40.1 recognises that there will be occasions when people go to a list MSP and it provides financial support for that. Allowances will be made available for list MSPs who are contacted in that way—proportional allowances. I thought that we were all in favour of proportionality these days. The term \"allowances\" has perhaps been misused. All MSPs will receive the same wage, the same right to speak in Parliament and its committees and the same right to vote on all issues. The allowance is for a particular task: giving constituents a local place to go—the office—and providing support staff.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

It would be confusing and wasteful if other members appeared to be doing exactly the same job. It has been said that if a Tory voter, for example, has a problem, they will want to go to a Tory MSP, but such a course is unnecessary: problems are not party political and we should not be playing games with the issues that people raise with us. I will represent all Linlithgow constituents, whether they voted for me or not. I am sure that other constituency MSPs feel the same way.

We must recognise that if people go to a list MSP—I would not want to stop them doing so if that was their choice—they will be supported. Amendment S1M-40.1 recognises that there will be occasions when people go to a list MSP and it provides financial support for that. Allowances will be made available for list MSPs who are contacted in that way—proportional allowances. I thought that we were all in favour of proportionality these days.

The term \"allowances\" has perhaps been misused. All MSPs will receive the same wage, the same right to speak in Parliament and its committees and the same right to vote on all issues. The allowance is for a particular task: giving constituents a local place to go—the office—and providing support staff.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1837E108P186C704275", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Mulligan, Mary", "ID": 1837, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Linlithgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Mulligan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Mulligan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 172.0, "ContributionID": 704275, "EditedText": "No.We do not all receive the same travelling allowance. It depends on where we come from. Differentials account for that. Why should we receive the same constituency allowance when there is no doubt that different amounts of work will be required of us?", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

We do not all receive the same travelling allowance. It depends on where we come from.

Differentials account for that. Why should we receive the same constituency allowance when there is no doubt that different amounts of work will be required of us?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1828E200P487C704276", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacDonald, Margo", "ID": 1828, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margo MacDonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Margo MacDonald (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 174.0, "ContributionID": 704276, "EditedText": "Will Mrs Mulligan give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mrs Mulligan give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C704284", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan (Glasgow) (SSP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 194.0, "ContributionID": 704284, "EditedText": "I support Mike Russell's motion. Like many members, I read today an article that was penned by our First Minister, who has unfortunately not been able to attend. I hope that that same facility will be made available by The Herald to all members who want to participate in a debate but cannot attend on the day. In his article, the First Minister talks about allowances based on work load. That is a pile of absolute nonsense, as I am sure Labour members who have recently left council chambers will agree. In Scotland today, there is sheer political inequality. Councillors, who are at the very bottom of the political ladder, get £6,000 a year in allowances, and they deal in the first instance with the overwhelming number of cases concerning local issues. In other words, local councillors' work loads are higher in most respects than those of members of the Westminster Parliament, who get a personal salary of £47,000 with another £50,000 or so in allowances. Councillors' work loads are certainly greater than those of our Euro MPs, whose salaries are £47,000 with another £53,000 on top, and many of whom are the Lord Lucans of Scottish political life. That is why the idea that allowances will somehow be based on work load is nonsense. It is clear that there is selective democracy, selective principle and, perhaps more importantly, selective amnesia. All the helpful, informative and glossy material that the Scottish Office issued in the run-up to the elections stated that all MSPs would be treated equally and with parity, and that there would be no second-class MSPs. I am more passionate about this debate than I am about the size of the MSPs' salary—which I think is bloated—because this debate is not, as has already been observed, about MSPs gaining anything for themselves. Rather, it is about MSPs being able to employ assistants, to have an office and to do their job properly. Any members who think that, because they are constituency MSPs, they will be the only people to whom constituents will come are far removed from reality. We must watch that a system does not develop whereby we encourage list MSPs to get together and tell anyone who comes to them from any constituency, \"I can't deal with that. You'll need to go to the constituency MSP.\" That would be passing the buck and would result in a lack of service to our Scottish constituents. We should have equality of treatment for all our MSPs. What is most important—and it has not been mentioned yet—is that payments to MSPs should be strictly monitored. Members should not be given largesse to do with as they will. If the Labour party fears that members of Opposition parties will misuse funds, it should monitor and report any such misuse. That is the right way in which to ensure that public money is properly used, but it is not right to use this debate to commit an act of political spite. I hope that members will support the motion. Applause.", "EditedTextHTML": "I support Mike Russell's motion. Like many members, I read today an article that was penned by our First Minister, who has unfortunately not been able to attend. I hope that that same facility will be made available by The Herald to all members who want to participate in a debate but cannot attend on the day.

In his article, the First Minister talks about allowances based on work load. That is a pile of absolute nonsense, as I am sure Labour members who have recently left council chambers will agree. In Scotland today, there is sheer political inequality. Councillors, who are at the very bottom of the political ladder, get £6,000 a year in allowances, and they deal in the first instance with the overwhelming number of cases concerning local issues. In other words, local councillors' work loads are higher in most respects than those of members of the Westminster Parliament, who get a personal salary of £47,000 with another £50,000 or so in allowances. Councillors' work loads are certainly greater than those of our Euro MPs, whose salaries are £47,000 with another £53,000 on top, and many of whom are the Lord Lucans of Scottish political life. That is why the idea that allowances will somehow be based on work load is nonsense.

It is clear that there is selective democracy, selective principle and, perhaps more importantly, selective amnesia. All the helpful, informative and glossy material that the Scottish Office issued in the run-up to the elections stated that all MSPs would be treated equally and with parity, and that there would be no second-class MSPs.

I am more passionate about this debate than I am about the size of the MSPs' salary—which I think is bloated—because this debate is not, as has already been observed, about MSPs gaining anything for themselves. Rather, it is about MSPs being able to employ assistants, to have an office and to do their job properly. Any members who think that, because they are constituency MSPs, they will be the only people to whom constituents will come are far removed from reality. We must watch that a system does not develop whereby we encourage list MSPs to get together and tell anyone who comes to them from any constituency, \"I can't deal with that. You'll need to go to the constituency MSP.\" That would be passing the buck and would result in a lack of service to our Scottish constituents.

We should have equality of treatment for all our MSPs. What is most important—and it has not been mentioned yet—is that payments to MSPs should be strictly monitored. Members should not be given largesse to do with as they will. If the Labour party fears that members of Opposition parties will misuse funds, it should monitor and report any such misuse. That is the right way in which to ensure that public money is properly used, but it is not right to use this debate to commit an act of political spite. I hope that members will support the motion. [Applause.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C704286", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Murray Tosh (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 199.0, "ContributionID": 704286, "EditedText": "Will Mr McConnell give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "

Will Mr McConnell give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C704287", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 201.0, "ContributionID": 704287, "EditedText": "I am sorry. Part of the new politics will be listening in this chamber. It is important that some of the members in this chamber learn to listen before they interrupt. As Mrs Mulligan said, we need a system that isbetter than those that have come before us. I welcome the conversion of the other three parties to a number of key elements in this scheme which, when I first raised them in the working group, caused consternation. The controls in the concordat—or the allowances code—at the end of the document, some of the controls on the use of offices, and some of the totals for, and controls on, the different elements of the allowances would not have been included if Labour had not taken the stand that it did. I welcome the conversion of the others, and on that basis, the whole document is to be welcomed. We have tried to define the notion of equal opportunity for members to carry out their duties, so that we can make the allowances scheme work in practice. No member of this Parliament has an automatic right to receive cash from the public purse, either to carry out their duties or to be in their region or constituency. In the scheme's accommodation allowance we already differentiate between those who live in Shetland and those who live in Edinburgh. We differentiate on travel allowances, and we will differentiate on other allowances because the allowances scheme must ensure that members can do their business. It is right and proper that we should also differentiate on offices and on staff. The principles of fairness and equality can be implemented by this Parliament at the same time as we implement a scheme that differentiates between the work loads of the regional member and the constituency member. I do not want people from Motherwell and Wishaw, or, in my role as Minister for Finance, anyone from anywhere else in Scotland, to come to me and ask why the Parliament did not choose to spend £1 million on something else.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry. Part of the new politics will be listening in this chamber. It is important that some of the members in this chamber learn to listen before they interrupt.

As Mrs Mulligan said, we need a system that is

better than those that have come before us. I welcome the conversion of the other three parties to a number of key elements in this scheme which, when I first raised them in the working group, caused consternation. The controls in the concordat—or the allowances code—at the end of the document, some of the controls on the use of offices, and some of the totals for, and controls on, the different elements of the allowances would not have been included if Labour had not taken the stand that it did. I welcome the conversion of the others, and on that basis, the whole document is to be welcomed.

We have tried to define the notion of equal opportunity for members to carry out their duties, so that we can make the allowances scheme work in practice. No member of this Parliament has an automatic right to receive cash from the public purse, either to carry out their duties or to be in their region or constituency. In the scheme's accommodation allowance we already differentiate between those who live in Shetland and those who live in Edinburgh. We differentiate on travel allowances, and we will differentiate on other allowances because the allowances scheme must ensure that members can do their business. It is right and proper that we should also differentiate on offices and on staff. The principles of fairness and equality can be implemented by this Parliament at the same time as we implement a scheme that differentiates between the work loads of the regional member and the constituency member.

I do not want people from Motherwell and Wishaw, or, in my role as Minister for Finance, anyone from anywhere else in Scotland, to come to me and ask why the Parliament did not choose to spend £1 million on something else.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C704291", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 209.0, "ContributionID": 704291, "EditedText": "I regret the fact that the first two motions on finance from the Scottish National party have been to benefit its representatives, rather than basic services to the people of Scotland. Labour will stand by the position that we have taken in today's debate. I support Karen Whitefield's amendment.", "EditedTextHTML": "I regret the fact that the first two motions on finance from the Scottish National party have been to benefit its representatives, rather than basic services to the people of Scotland. Labour will stand by the position that we have taken in today's debate. I support Karen Whitefield's amendment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C704295", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 217.0, "ContributionID": 704295, "EditedText": "I would not want to be as hard and fast as that. The occupant of the chair always takes into account any time lost for interventions. It will not be a precise formula. Members may choose to give way. If they do not give way, those seeking to intervene should resume their seat.", "EditedTextHTML": "I would not want to be as hard and fast as that. The occupant of the chair always takes into account any time lost for interventions. It will not be a precise formula. Members may choose to give way. If they do not give way, those seeking to intervene should resume their seat.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2099E29P51C704301", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Young, John", "ID": 2099, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Young", "SpeakerDisplayName": "John Young: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 231.0, "ContributionID": 704301, "EditedText": "No, I will not give way. All right, I will give way.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I will not give way. All right, I will give way.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2099E29P51C704303", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Young, John", "ID": 2099, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Young", "SpeakerDisplayName": "John Young: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 235.0, "ContributionID": 704303, "EditedText": "I am at the end, so I will give way the next time that I speak, if Ms Curran wishes to intervene. That is a promise.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am at the end, so I will give way the next time that I speak, if Ms Curran wishes to intervene. That is a promise.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1782E69P279C704308", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Oldfather, Irene", "ID": 1782, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Cunninghame South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Irene Oldfather", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Oldfather: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 246.0, "ContributionID": 704308, "EditedText": "No, I will not.The Irvine Herald says that\"the suspicion must persist that Mike Russell's flirtation with us was expediency of the carpetbagger variety, and his arrogant manner suggested a man who thinks he has bigger fish to fry in Edinburgh.\" I cannot justify going back to the electorate of Cunninghame South to explain to them why £1 million of taxpayers' money should be spent on setting up an office for Mr Russell in Hawick, when it should be spent on services for my constituents. I call on members to reject Mr Russell's proposals.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I will not.

The Irvine Herald says that

\"the suspicion must persist that Mike Russell's flirtation with us was expediency of the carpetbagger variety, and his arrogant manner suggested a man who thinks he has bigger fish to fry in Edinburgh.\"

I cannot justify going back to the electorate of Cunninghame South to explain to them why £1 million of taxpayers' money should be spent on setting up an office for Mr Russell in Hawick, when it should be spent on services for my constituents. I call on members to reject Mr Russell's proposals.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2185E120P328C704309", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Brown, Robert", "ID": 2185, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robert Brown", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robert Brown (Glasgow) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 249.0, "ContributionID": 704309, "EditedText": "Some of my colleagues in the Labour side of the partnership have a mindset problem, which I think will have to be addressed. I invite them to look at the allowances code, to which I do not think they will object. It allows constituents to approach any MSP in their constituency or region. It also says that all MSPs have the right to hold surgeries within the area for which they were returned. The code lays down rules for the relationship between the two sorts of MSP. All MSPs are equal and should be treated as such. Unless the Labour members who have spoken today recognise that fact, there will be a major problem in the working of this Parliament. This issue is not about Parliament against the Executive. It not even a matter for the political parties; it is for the members of the Parliament, and I hope that it will be determined in that way at the end of the meeting. Let us be realistic, as a rank smell of hypocrisy has hung over some of the speeches that we have heard. If Conservative members—who, to a man and woman, are list members—were sitting where Labour members sit, and had a different balance of list and first-past-the-post members, and if Labour members were sitting where SNP members sit, and had a huge number of list rather than first-past-the-post members, does anyone doubt that the attitudes would have been reversed? The issue reflects the different positions that members see themselves in. The legitimate point is that members fear unseemly turf wars about business in their local areas. I think that those fears will turn out to be exaggerated. The Liberal Democrat amendment is designed to dampen down those fears, to deal with the problem and to suggest a reasonable formula. Staff allowances should be the same for list and first-past-the-post members; there is no argument about that among Liberal Democrat, SNP or Conservative members. I call on Labour members to recognise that list MSPs require the same staff support as first-past-the-post constituency members.", "EditedTextHTML": "Some of my colleagues in the Labour side of the partnership have a mindset problem, which I think will have to be addressed. I invite them to look at the allowances code, to which I do not think they will object. It allows constituents to approach any MSP in their constituency or region. It also says that all MSPs have the right to hold surgeries within the area for which they were returned.

The code lays down rules for the relationship between the two sorts of MSP. All MSPs are equal and should be treated as such. Unless the Labour members who have spoken today recognise that fact, there will be a major problem in the working of this Parliament.

This issue is not about Parliament against the Executive. It not even a matter for the political parties; it is for the members of the Parliament, and I hope that it will be determined in that way at the end of the meeting.

Let us be realistic, as a rank smell of hypocrisy has hung over some of the speeches that we have heard. If Conservative members—who, to a man and woman, are list members—were sitting where

Labour members sit, and had a different balance of list and first-past-the-post members, and if Labour members were sitting where SNP members sit, and had a huge number of list rather than first-past-the-post members, does anyone doubt that the attitudes would have been reversed? The issue reflects the different positions that members see themselves in.

The legitimate point is that members fear unseemly turf wars about business in their local areas. I think that those fears will turn out to be exaggerated. The Liberal Democrat amendment is designed to dampen down those fears, to deal with the problem and to suggest a reasonable formula. Staff allowances should be the same for list and first-past-the-post members; there is no argument about that among Liberal Democrat, SNP or Conservative members. I call on Labour members to recognise that list MSPs require the same staff support as first-past-the-post constituency members.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2185E120P328C704311", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Brown, Robert", "ID": 2185, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robert Brown", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robert Brown: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 253.0, "ContributionID": 704311, "EditedText": "No, I will not give way.Offices are a different matter. As Margaret Smith pointed out, the distinguishing point relates to the constituency in the local sense or the constituency in the regional sense. Mike Russell said that some people had called this debate tawdry. In fact, it has been a good debate, as debates go, but it is unseemly that it has had to take place at all. The matter could have been dealt with beforehand. I say to Jack McConnell that one of the reasons why it was not dealt with beforehand was that the Labour party was very late with its proposals—I do not remember five proposals being put before the allowances group.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I will not give way.

Offices are a different matter. As Margaret Smith pointed out, the distinguishing point relates to the constituency in the local sense or the constituency in the regional sense. Mike Russell said that some people had called this debate tawdry. In fact, it has been a good debate, as debates go, but it is unseemly that it has had to take place at all. The matter could have been dealt with beforehand. I say to Jack McConnell that one of the reasons why it was not dealt with beforehand was that the Labour party was very late with its proposals—I do not remember five proposals being put before the allowances group.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C704312", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 255.0, "ContributionID": 704312, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2080E130P217C704316", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lamont, Johann", "ID": 2080, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Pollok" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Johann Lamont", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Johann Lamont (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 266.0, "ContributionID": 704316, "EditedText": "Self- interest dressed up in high moral tone is still self- interest. Members should be more honest about some of the things that they say in debates. Frankly, the comments made by John Young were offensive. We have a new and complex system: we have both constituency members and list members. That system was introduced because we wanted to keep the connection between the local constituency and its representative in Parliament. In doing that, we recognised that there was a difference between list and constituency MSPs. We have come here in different ways and the Parliament must address how we manage those differences. I have heard members bandy around words such as equality. Anyone who has tried to deal with the question of equality will know that equality does not necessarily mean treating everybody the same; when we are talking about addressing poverty, it means doing entirely the opposite. There is no doubt that MSPs are here as equals: we all earn the same wages. In a previous existence, I was a secondary school teacher and I earned the same as every other principal teacher who did that job. I did not feel that I was being treated unequally because the science department got a larger requisition than my department did. Its hardware needs were more expensive that those of my department and I recognised that the allowance system reflected the needs of individual departments. We must address the needs and responsibilities that the allowances in the Scottish Parliament have to meet.", "EditedTextHTML": "Self- interest dressed up in high moral tone is still self- interest. Members should be more honest about some of the things that they say in debates. Frankly, the comments made by John Young were offensive.

We have a new and complex system: we have both constituency members and list members. That system was introduced because we wanted to keep the connection between the local constituency and its representative in Parliament. In doing that, we recognised that there was a difference between list and constituency MSPs. We have come here in different ways and the Parliament must address how we manage those differences.

I have heard members bandy around words such as equality. Anyone who has tried to deal

with the question of equality will know that equality does not necessarily mean treating everybody the same; when we are talking about addressing poverty, it means doing entirely the opposite.

There is no doubt that MSPs are here as equals: we all earn the same wages. In a previous existence, I was a secondary school teacher and I earned the same as every other principal teacher who did that job. I did not feel that I was being treated unequally because the science department got a larger requisition than my department did. Its hardware needs were more expensive that those of my department and I recognised that the allowance system reflected the needs of individual departments. We must address the needs and responsibilities that the allowances in the Scottish Parliament have to meet.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C704325", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 284.0, "ContributionID": 704325, "EditedText": "Please draw to a close.", "EditedTextHTML": "Please draw to a close.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C704327", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Keith Raffan (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 289.0, "ContributionID": 704327, "EditedText": "I believe in parity and equality. Members may say that I would say that because I am a regional member. I would like to think that I would say it even I was a constituency member. I agreed with much of what Mr Davidson said. He and Mr McLetchie—with whom I have sparred—have as much right to be here as me or any constituency member. Mr Russell made a valid point when he said that the issue was not just parity of treatment for members, but parity of treatment for voters, the people whom we are here to serve. The division between members is very unfortunate. I read, with interest, the First Minister's article in The Herald today about his busy weekend, which included holding two surgeries and dictating two full tapes on Sunday. I am sure that he has a very heavy constituency work load; this weekend, I had a heavy regional work load, too. He cannot tell me now what my work load is going to be: it is far too early in the session to say what the work load of regional and constituency members will be. The First Minister told us what he did at the weekend, so I will tell him what I did. First of all, on Friday, I went right up to Edzell, in the north-east of my region, and had a meeting with Sir Bob Smith and patients from Stracathro hospital to discuss that hospital's future. I went down to Perth to have a meeting with councillors about issues of concern to them. I went across to Crook of Devon to attend the Fossoway gathering—which featured, I am glad to say, on \"Scottish Lobby\"— and to talk to constituents. I went over to the Stirling constituency to discuss the question of the national park in the Trossachs, which Dr Sylvia Jackson will raise during members' business today. I went to Kinross to meet party workers and to Cupar for a meeting. I went through, I think, five constituencies, whereas the First Minister went only to his constituency. As the First Minister and members such as Mr Salmond and Mr Swinney, who were at Westminster, know— Mr Alex Salmond (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)rose—", "EditedTextHTML": "I believe in parity and equality. Members may say that I would say that because I am a regional member. I would like to think that I would say it even I was a constituency member. I agreed with much of what Mr Davidson said. He and Mr McLetchie—with whom I have sparred—have as much right to be here as me or any constituency member. Mr Russell made a valid point when he said that the issue was not just parity of treatment for members, but parity of treatment for voters, the people whom we are here to serve. The division between members is very unfortunate.

I read, with interest, the First Minister's article in The Herald today about his busy weekend, which included holding two surgeries and dictating two full tapes on Sunday. I am sure that he has a very heavy constituency work load; this weekend, I had a heavy regional work load, too. He cannot tell me now what my work load is going to be: it is far too early in the session to say what the work load of regional and constituency members will be.

The First Minister told us what he did at the weekend, so I will tell him what I did. First of all, on Friday, I went right up to Edzell, in the north-east of my region, and had a meeting with Sir Bob Smith and patients from Stracathro hospital to discuss that hospital's future. I went down to Perth to have a meeting with councillors about issues of concern to them. I went across to Crook of Devon to attend the Fossoway gathering—which featured, I am glad to say, on \"Scottish Lobby\"— and to talk to constituents. I went over to the Stirling constituency to discuss the question of the national park in the Trossachs, which Dr Sylvia

Jackson will raise during members' business today. I went to Kinross to meet party workers and to Cupar for a meeting. I went through, I think, five constituencies, whereas the First Minister went only to his constituency.

As the First Minister and members such as Mr Salmond and Mr Swinney, who were at Westminster, know—

Mr Alex Salmond (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)

rose—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C704328", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 291.0, "ContributionID": 704328, "EditedText": "I do not have time to give way, but I will give way the next time if I can. A member's job is as elastic as he or she chooses to make it, and that is true for both regional and constituency members. In my view, we need the same resources—and parity and equality of treatment—so that we can serve our voters equally. That was Mr Russell's crucial point, and I agree with him.", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not have time to give way, but I will give way the next time if I can.

A member's job is as elastic as he or she chooses to make it, and that is true for both regional and constituency members. In my view, we need the same resources—and parity and equality of treatment—so that we can serve our voters equally. That was Mr Russell's crucial point, and I agree with him.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2142E142P230C704329", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Watson, Mike", "ID": 2142, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Cathcart" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Watson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mike Watson (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 294.0, "ContributionID": 704329, "EditedText": "A lot of cant and hypocrisy has been in evidence during this debate and I do not agree with anyone, from whatever party, who said that they regret having to speak during it. We have this period before the Parliament assumes its powers so that we can get such matters out of the way before we get down to serious business. We cannot bring 1 July forward any faster than it will come naturally, so we should deal with these issues when we have the opportunity to do so, before the Parliament's business comes along. I thought it illuminating that Mr Russell said, in his opening remarks, that we must not have two classes of MSP and then immediately went on to say that he represents a super-constituency, while the rest of us represent ordinary constituencies. Presumably he is a super-MSP and I am just a fairly average, run-of-the-mill MSP. Let us be honest and look logically at this issue. It is not a question of whether there is a distinction between the two kinds of MSP because—I am sorry, Michael—quite clearly there is. There are three ways of looking at the issue. The first is dealt with in the scheme. No one is suggesting that everyone should get the Edinburgh accommodation allowance—for obvious reasons—and three classes have been suggested for the way in which that allowance should be paid. Secondly—this is important for Mr Russell— there is not uniformity in the way in which, should he pop his clogs, he would be replaced and how I would be replaced should the same thing happen to me. Difficult though the task would be of filling Mr Russell's shoes—if one could get close enough—he is not arguing that he should be replaced by someone who has submitted themselves to the electorate. It is important to note that. The next person on the SNP's list would be brought into the Parliament, because that is the system. There is not uniformity there, and I have not heard any complaints about that. There is also not uniformity in the way in which the regional members and constituency members come here. Ten regional members—quite rightly and properly—did not even have to submit themselves to the electorate in a constituency contest. They were entitled to do that, but we should not let that happen and then say that there has to be absolute uniformity and that we are all the same. Thirdly, I agree that every MSP is equal, but every MSP does not and, I suggest, will not have the same work load. Today's debate is really about staffing and costs allowances. The situation in Wales has been mentioned several times. Are we arguing that we should be measuring ourselves against Wales? Do we want the legislative powers of the Welsh Assembly? Do we want the salaries that the Welsh Assembly members are paid? Sorry, Tommy, you probably think we should. However, the analogy with Wales is not important as there are other countries, such as New Zealand—which was mentioned earlier— Germany and Spain that offer instructive examples at federal and regional level. Regional members tend to spend their weekends where the Parliament is, and go less often to their constituencies. It has been proven over a number of years in the Bundestag and in the Länder Parliaments, and in the Cortes and the Spanish regional governments, that regional members are given less constituency case work. That is a matter of fact and of concern. We cannot try to change the system after it is in place—which is why it is important that we get things right today. The public furore that has arisen around today's debates is nothing; just watch if we try to open up this issue again in 18 months' time, when the review comes around. It will be extremely difficult. That is why we must grasp the nettle today. I suggest that it is likely that the roles of list and constituency members will differ. Both have equal value in this chamber. List members were brought here to provide political balance and it is important that they do so, but it is only fair to recognise—as Karen Whitefield's amendment does—that they will not have the same constituency representational role.", "EditedTextHTML": "A lot of cant and hypocrisy has been in evidence during this debate and I do not agree with anyone, from whatever party, who said that they regret having to speak during it. We have this period before the Parliament assumes its powers so that we can get such matters out of the way before we get down to serious business. We cannot bring 1 July forward any faster than it will come naturally, so we should deal with these issues when we have the opportunity to do so, before the Parliament's business comes along.

I thought it illuminating that Mr Russell said, in his opening remarks, that we must not have two classes of MSP and then immediately went on to say that he represents a super-constituency, while the rest of us represent ordinary constituencies. Presumably he is a super-MSP and I am just a fairly average, run-of-the-mill MSP. Let us be honest and look logically at this issue. It is not a question of whether there is a distinction between the two kinds of MSP because—I am sorry, Michael—quite clearly there is. There are three ways of looking at the issue.

The first is dealt with in the scheme. No one is suggesting that everyone should get the Edinburgh accommodation allowance—for obvious reasons—and three classes have been suggested for the way in which that allowance should be paid.

Secondly—this is important for Mr Russell— there is not uniformity in the way in which, should he pop his clogs, he would be replaced and how I would be replaced should the same thing happen to me. Difficult though the task would be of filling Mr Russell's shoes—if one could get close enough—he is not arguing that he should be replaced by someone who has submitted themselves to the electorate. It is important to note that. The next person on the SNP's list would be brought into the Parliament, because that is the system. There is not uniformity there, and I have not heard any complaints about that. There is also not uniformity in the way in which the regional members and constituency members come here. Ten regional members—quite rightly and properly—did not even have to submit themselves to the electorate in a constituency contest. They were entitled to do that, but we should not let that happen and then say that there has to be absolute uniformity and that we are all the same.

Thirdly, I agree that every MSP is equal, but every MSP does not and, I suggest, will not have the same work load. Today's debate is really about staffing and costs allowances. The situation in Wales has been mentioned several times. Are we arguing that we should be measuring ourselves against Wales? Do we want the legislative powers of the Welsh Assembly? Do we want the salaries that the Welsh Assembly members are paid? Sorry, Tommy, you probably think we should.

However, the analogy with Wales is not important as there are other countries, such as New Zealand—which was mentioned earlier— Germany and Spain that offer instructive examples at federal and regional level. Regional members tend to spend their weekends where the Parliament is, and go less often to their constituencies. It has been proven over a number of years in the Bundestag and in the Länder Parliaments, and in the Cortes and the Spanish regional governments, that regional members are given less constituency case work. That is a matter of fact and of concern.

We cannot try to change the system after it is in place—which is why it is important that we get things right today. The public furore that has arisen around today's debates is nothing; just watch if we try to open up this issue again in 18 months' time, when the review comes around. It will be extremely difficult. That is why we must grasp the nettle today.

I suggest that it is likely that the roles of list and constituency members will differ. Both have equal value in this chamber. List members were brought here to provide political balance and it is important that they do so, but it is only fair to recognise—as Karen Whitefield's amendment does—that they will not have the same constituency representational role.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1916E38P70C704331", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Ben", "ID": 1916, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ben Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ben Wallace (North-East Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 299.0, "ContributionID": 704331, "EditedText": "I want to do the decent thing and congratulate Karen Whitefield on her maiden speech. I do not necessarily agree with the content of her speech, but we all need to go through the experience. In fact, I got the maiden telling-off. Yesterday, I was up in Aberdeenshire meeting Conservative councillors. I am delighted to represent the people of Dundee, of Banff and Buchan, of West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine, of Angus and of Aberdeen. They all elected me and members of the SNP who are here not as constituency, but as regional, MSPs. When I came back late last night in a taxi, the taxi driver said, \"You're all the same. You don't represent us. I wrote a letter to one party—no answer. I wrote a letter to another party and waited three weeks—no answer.\" Every time we politicians fail—either on purpose or by neglect— to respond to the need of a constituent, we do not damage our party; we damage democracy. Every time we do that because of our work load or other commitments, we damage the Scottish Parliament. Giving list members parity and the ability to represent people will strengthen democracy. I understand why the Liberal Democrats and members of other parties might be worried that we have some devious agenda to undermine them. I can give an assurance that I am a professional and I hope that I will concentrate on certain issues—not, for example, to undermine Mike Rumbles whom I stood against, but to provide better representation for the people in the region. Their money and their votes have put me and Mike Rumbles into this chamber. I therefore ask that members back the SNP motion to give list members parity in representation, because representation of the people counts for far more than the interests of MSPs.", "EditedTextHTML": "I want to do the decent thing and congratulate Karen Whitefield on her maiden speech. I do not necessarily agree with the content of her speech, but we all need to go through the experience. In fact, I got the maiden telling-off.

Yesterday, I was up in Aberdeenshire meeting Conservative councillors. I am delighted to represent the people of Dundee, of Banff and Buchan, of West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine, of Angus and of Aberdeen. They all elected me and members of the SNP who are here not as constituency, but as regional, MSPs.

When I came back late last night in a taxi, the taxi driver said, \"You're all the same. You don't represent us. I wrote a letter to one party—no answer. I wrote a letter to another party and waited three weeks—no answer.\" Every time we politicians fail—either on purpose or by neglect— to respond to the need of a constituent, we do not damage our party; we damage democracy. Every time we do that because of our work load or other commitments, we damage the Scottish Parliament. Giving list members parity and the ability to represent people will strengthen democracy.

I understand why the Liberal Democrats and members of other parties might be worried that we have some devious agenda to undermine them. I can give an assurance that I am a professional and I hope that I will concentrate on certain issues—not, for example, to undermine Mike Rumbles whom I stood against, but to provide better representation for the people in the region. Their money and their votes have put me and Mike Rumbles into this chamber. I therefore ask that members back the SNP motion to give list members parity in representation, because representation of the people counts for far more than the interests of MSPs.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C704335", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 308.0, "ContributionID": 704335, "EditedText": "I now call Michael Russell to wind up on his amendment.", "EditedTextHTML": "I now call Michael Russell to wind up on his amendment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C704336", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 310.0, "ContributionID": 704336, "EditedText": "I am not proposing the amendment—I am proposing the motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am not proposing the amendment—I am proposing the motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C704337", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 312.0, "ContributionID": 704337, "EditedText": "I beg your pardon. Will you please sum up on the motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "I beg your pardon. Will you please sum up on the motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C704339", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 317.0, "ContributionID": 704339, "EditedText": "Before we move to decision time, I ask Mr Russell to move motion S1M-41 formally.", "EditedTextHTML": "Before we move to decision time, I ask Mr Russell to move motion S1M-41 formally.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704341", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 320.0, "ContributionID": 704341, "EditedText": "That the Parliament direct the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body (\"the SPCB\") as follows:", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament direct the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body (\"the SPCB\") as follows:

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704342", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 321.0, "ContributionID": 704342, "EditedText": "1. Provision of Information Technology and Office Equipment (1) The SPCB shall provide information technology and other office equipment for the Parliament. (2) Where such information technology and other office equipment is provided for the use of a member for the purpose of carrying out his or her Parliamentary duties – (a) the member may select the equipment concerned but only from a list of items specified by the SPCB; (b) the cost of such equipment shall be no more than £5000 in the first year following a general election and no more than £1500 in each of the following years in that session; (c) the member shall be responsible for the maintenance, protection and security of such equipment and the SPCB may, if it has reasonable grounds to believe that any such equipment is being misused, require the return of the equipment. 2. Provision of Office Supplies (1) The SPCB shall provide office supplies and postage stamps or postage paid envelopes for the Parliament. (2) Where such office supplies are provided for the use of a member for the purpose of carrying out his or her Parliamentary duties the member may select the supplies concerned but only from a list of items specified by the SPCB. 3. Publication The SPCB shall publish for each financial year in respect of each member details of the total sums expended under paragraphs 1 and 2 of this direction. 4. Parliamentary Duties For the purposes of this direction, \"Parliamentary duties\" shall have the same meaning as in rule 8 of Part A of the Members' Allowances Scheme.—Michael Russell.", "EditedTextHTML": "1. Provision of Information Technology and Office Equipment (1) The SPCB shall provide information technology and other office equipment for the Parliament. (2) Where such information technology and other office equipment is provided for the use of a member for the purpose of carrying out his or her Parliamentary duties – (a) the member may select the equipment concerned but only from a list of items specified by the SPCB; (b) the cost of such equipment shall be no more than £5000 in the first year following a general election and no more than £1500 in each of the following years in that session; (c) the member shall be responsible for the maintenance, protection and security of such equipment and the SPCB may, if it has reasonable grounds to believe that any such equipment is being misused, require the return of the equipment. 2. Provision of Office Supplies (1) The SPCB shall provide office supplies and postage stamps or postage paid envelopes for the Parliament. (2) Where such office supplies are provided for the use of a member for the purpose of carrying out his or her Parliamentary duties the member may select the supplies concerned but only from a list of items specified by the SPCB. 3. Publication The SPCB shall publish for each financial year in respect of each member details of the total sums expended under paragraphs 1 and 2 of this direction.
\n4. Parliamentary Duties For the purposes of this direction, \"Parliamentary duties\" shall have the same meaning as in rule 8 of Part A of the Members' Allowances Scheme.—[Michael Russell.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C704343", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26610, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 322.0, "ID": 26610, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 323.0, "ContributionID": 704343, "EditedText": "The first question is, that motion S1M-37, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "The first question is, that motion S1M-37, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704347", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26610, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 322.0, "ID": 26610, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 331.0, "ContributionID": 704347, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704361", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26610, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 322.0, "ID": 26610, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 353.0, "ContributionID": 704361, "EditedText": "There shall be a Members' Allowances Scheme (\"the Scheme\") which shall make provision to be implemented by the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body (\"the SPCB\") for the payment of allowances to members of the Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "There shall be a Members' Allowances Scheme (\"the Scheme\") which shall make provision to be implemented by the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body (\"the SPCB\") for the payment of allowances to members of the Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704365", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26610, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 322.0, "ID": 26610, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 357.0, "ContributionID": 704365, "EditedText": "Rule 1 – Interpretation and commencement (1) In this Scheme\" parliamentary complex\" means the place where the Parliament or any of its committees or sub-committees meets from time to time;", "EditedTextHTML": "Rule 1 – Interpretation and commencement (1) In this Scheme\" parliamentary complex\" means the place where the Parliament or any of its committees or sub-committees meets from time to time;

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C704350", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26610, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 322.0, "ID": 26610, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 336.0, "ContributionID": 704350, "EditedText": "The result of the division is as follows: Yes 52, No 71, Abstentions 3.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result of the division is as follows: Yes 52, No 71, Abstentions 3.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C704354", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26610, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 322.0, "ID": 26610, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 343.0, "ContributionID": 704354, "EditedText": "There will be a division. Voting is as previously: to vote for the amendment, press yes; to vote against the amendment, press no; to abstain, press the abstain button.", "EditedTextHTML": "There will be a division. Voting is as previously: to vote for the amendment, press yes; to vote against the amendment, press no; to abstain, press the abstain button.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704357", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26610, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 322.0, "ID": 26610, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 348.0, "ContributionID": 704357, "EditedText": "Amendment agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704359", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26610, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 322.0, "ID": 26610, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 351.0, "ContributionID": 704359, "EditedText": "Motion, as amended, agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion, as amended, agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704372", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26610, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 322.0, "ID": 26610, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 364.0, "ContributionID": 704372, "EditedText": "Rule 9 – Equality", "EditedTextHTML": "Rule 9 – Equality

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704373", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26610, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 322.0, "ID": 26610, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 365.0, "ContributionID": 704373, "EditedText": "All members shall be treated equally irrespective of whether they have been returned as constituency members or as regional members, subject to paragraph 2 of Part B.", "EditedTextHTML": "All members shall be treated equally irrespective of whether they have been returned as constituency members or as regional members, subject to paragraph 2 of Part B.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704376", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26610, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 322.0, "ID": 26610, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 368.0, "ContributionID": 704376, "EditedText": "(a) a member of staff remains the employee of a single member; and (b) the members concerned give written notice to the SPCB. 2. Local Office Costs Allowance (1) Subject to sub-paragraphs (2), (2A), (2B) and (2C) a member shall be eligible for an allowance of £10,000 for each financial year to enable the member, within the constituency or region from which he or she was returned – (a) to run an office; and (b) to meet with constituents either on a one to one basis or as a group. (2) Without prejudice to the generality of subparagraph (1), this allowance may be used for the following: (a) lease of a property or rental of premises; (b) the provision of utilities; (c) the purchase or lease of office furniture or equipment or the purchase of stationery. (2A) Where in a particular region more than one regional member is returned from a registered political party's regional list, the amount of local office costs allowance for which each such regional member is eligible shall not be £10,000 but shall instead be computed as follows— (a) there shall be added together the amount of the office costs allowance referred to in paragraph (1) in respect of one such regional member and 30% of that sum in respect of each of the other such regional members; (b) the resulting total sum shall be divided by the number of such regional members; and (c) that amount shall be the local office costs allowance for which each such regional member shall be eligible. (2B) Subject to sub-paragraph (2C), where sub-paragraph (2A) applies the office costs allowance shall be used to enable the regional members concerned— (a) to run only one office in the particular region; and (b) to meet constituents either on a one to one basis or as a group; (c) and accordingly some or all of the regional members concerned may pool all or part of their allowances under this paragraph in order to run such an office provided that the members concerned give written notice to the SPCB. (2C) Where sub-paragraph (2A) applies in relation to a region mentioned in section C of Annex C (eligibility for exceptional needs allowance: the largest regions), the SPCB— (a) may determine after inquiry that the regional members concerned may run one additional office because that is necessary for the regional members concerned to carry out their Parliamentary duties effectively; and (b) in those circumstances may increase the local office costs allowance to which each of the regional members concerned is entitled by such a sum as the SPCB may determine but the total of such increases shall not exceed 100% of the office costs allowance referred to in subparagraph (1). (3) Where local office costs are higher than in other parts of Scotland due to the state of the local economy, a member may refer the matter to the SPCB for its determination as to whether the member should be eligible for an allowance greater than the amount mentioned in sub-paragraph (1), but in any event no greater than 10% of that amount. 3. Members' Travel Allowance (1) A member shall be eligible for the reimbursement of travelling expenses necessarily incurred by that member in performing his or her Parliamentary duties. (2) In this paragraph – \"travelling expenses\" means – (a) the actual cost of any travel ticket purchased or fare paid in making a journey, or part of a journey, by public transport; (b) where such a journey, or any part of such a journey, is made by means of a motor vehicle, motor cycle or pedal cycle, owned or wholly maintained by the member, such amount per mile travelled on the journey, or that part of the journey, by means of that motor vehicle, motor cycle or pedal cycle as is described in subparagraphs (3) to (5); (c) in exceptional circumstances, with the approval of the SPCB, the actual cost of car hire and associated petrol costs; and (d) tolls and carparking charges; \"public transport\" means any service or services provided to the public at large for the carriage of passengers by road, rail, air or sea but includes travel by taxi service only where the use of such a service is required for reasons of urgency or where it is not reasonably practicable for the member to use other forms of public transport. (3) The rate of the motor vehicle mileage allowance will be the maximum set for local government under section 46 of the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1973 and shall apply to all motor vehicles irrespective of engine size or annual mileage. (4) The rate of the motorcycle mileage allowance will be the corresponding maximum rate set for Scottish Office employees. (5) The rate of the pedal cycle mileage allowance will be at the level of the maximum tax free allowance set by the Treasury. (6) Any travel outside Scotland shall be eligible for reimbursement only where the travel concerned has been authorised in advance by the SPCB. 4. Edinburgh Accommodation Allowance (1) Where a member's main residence lies within a constituency mentioned in Group One of Annex B, he or she shall not be eligible for any allowance under this paragraph. (2) Where a member's main residence lies within a constituency mentioned in Group Two of Annex B, the member shall be eligible for an overnight subsistence allowance of up to £80 per night for each night that he or she requires to stay overnight for Parliamentary duties in Edinburgh. (3) Where a member's main residence lies within a constituency mentioned in Group Three of Annex B, the member shall be eligible for a total allowance of £9000 for each financial year comprising either – (a) an allowance of up to £80 per night for each night that he or she requires to stay overnight for Parliamentary duties in Edinburgh; or (b) subject to sub-paragraph (4), an allowance in order to cover the costs of those items mentioned in sub-paragraph (5) below, where such costs are a necessary consequence of having to stay overnight for Parliamentary duties in Edinburgh. (4) Where the member claims an allowance under sub-paragraph (3)(b) part way through the financial year, then the amount of the allowance payable under that paragraph shall be apportioned on a pro rata basis. (5) The costs referred to in sub-paragraph (3) relate only to the provision and use as residential accommodation of a property located in the City of Edinburgh and are ( a) the rent payable for the lease of the property; (b) the interest on the capital required to purchase the property; (c) council tax; (d) factoring charges; and (e) the provision of utilities. (6) Where a member's main residence falls within Group Two of Annex B, the member may refer his or her case to the SPCB and, where there are extenuating circumstances, the SPCB may determine that the member may for the purposes of this paragraph be treated as if his or her main residence fell within Group Three of Annex B. (7) The SPCB shall publish for each financial year information about any allowance payable under this paragraph including the name of the city, town or village where each member's main residence is located .", "EditedTextHTML": "(a) a member of staff remains the employee of a single member; and (b) the members concerned give written notice to the SPCB. 2. Local Office Costs Allowance (1) Subject to sub-paragraphs (2), (2A), (2B) and (2C) a member shall be eligible for an allowance of £10,000 for each financial year to enable the member, within the constituency or region from which he or she was returned – (a) to run an office; and (b) to meet with constituents either on a one to one basis or as a group. (2) Without prejudice to the generality of subparagraph (1), this allowance may be used for the following: (a) lease of a property or rental of premises; (b) the provision of utilities; (c) the purchase or lease of office furniture or equipment or the purchase of stationery. (2A) Where in a particular region more than one regional member is returned from a registered political party's regional list, the amount of local office costs allowance for which each such regional member is eligible shall not be £10,000 but shall instead be computed as follows— (a) there shall be added together the amount of the office costs allowance referred to in paragraph (1) in respect of one such regional member and 30% of that sum in respect of each of the other such regional members; (b) the resulting total sum shall be divided by the number of such regional members; and (c) that amount shall be the local office costs allowance for which each such regional member shall be eligible. (2B) Subject to sub-paragraph (2C), where sub-paragraph (2A) applies the office costs allowance shall be used to enable the regional members concerned— (a) to run only one office in the particular region; and (b) to meet constituents either on a one to one basis or as a group; (c) and accordingly some or all of the regional members concerned may pool all or part of their allowances under this paragraph in order to run such an office provided that the members concerned give written notice to the SPCB. (2C) Where sub-paragraph (2A) applies in relation to a region mentioned in section C of Annex C (eligibility for exceptional needs allowance: the largest regions), the SPCB— (a) may determine after inquiry that the regional members concerned may run one additional office because that is necessary for the regional members concerned to carry out their Parliamentary duties effectively; and (b) in those circumstances may increase the local office costs allowance to which each of the regional members concerned is entitled by such a sum as the SPCB may determine but the total of such increases shall not exceed 100% of the office costs allowance referred to in subparagraph (1). (3) Where local office costs are higher than in other parts of Scotland due to the state of the local economy, a member may refer the matter to the SPCB for its determination as to whether the member should be eligible for an allowance greater than the amount mentioned in sub-paragraph (1), but in any event no greater than 10% of that amount. 3. Members' Travel Allowance (1) A member shall be eligible for the reimbursement of travelling expenses necessarily incurred by that member in performing his or her Parliamentary duties. (2) In this paragraph – \"travelling expenses\" means – (a) the actual cost of any travel ticket purchased or fare paid in making a journey, or part of a journey, by public transport; (b) where such a journey, or any part of such a journey, is made by means of a motor vehicle, motor cycle or pedal cycle, owned or wholly maintained by the member, such amount per mile travelled on the journey, or that part of the journey, by means of that motor vehicle, motor cycle or pedal cycle as is described in subparagraphs (3) to (5); (c) in exceptional circumstances, with the approval of the SPCB, the actual cost of car hire and associated petrol costs; and (d) tolls and carparking charges; \"public transport\" means any service or services provided to the public at large for the carriage of passengers by road, rail, air or sea but includes travel by taxi service only where the use of such a service is required for reasons of urgency or where it is not reasonably practicable for the member to use other forms of public transport. (3) The rate of the motor vehicle mileage allowance will be the maximum set for local government under section 46 of the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1973 and shall apply to all motor vehicles irrespective of engine size or annual mileage. (4) The rate of the motorcycle mileage allowance will be the corresponding maximum rate set for Scottish Office employees. (5) The rate of the pedal cycle mileage allowance will be at the level of the maximum tax free allowance set by the Treasury. (6) Any travel outside Scotland shall be eligible for reimbursement only where the travel concerned has been authorised in advance by the SPCB. 4. Edinburgh Accommodation Allowance (1) Where a member's main residence lies within a constituency mentioned in Group One of Annex B, he or she shall not be eligible for any allowance under this paragraph. (2) Where a member's main residence lies within a constituency mentioned in Group Two of Annex B, the member shall be eligible for an overnight subsistence allowance of up to £80 per night for each night that he or she requires to stay overnight for Parliamentary duties in Edinburgh. (3) Where a member's main residence lies within a constituency mentioned in Group Three of Annex B, the member shall be eligible for a total allowance of £9000 for each financial year comprising either – (a) an allowance of up to £80 per night for each night that he or she requires to stay overnight for Parliamentary duties in Edinburgh; or (b) subject to sub-paragraph (4), an allowance in order to cover the costs of those items mentioned in sub-paragraph (5) below, where such costs are a necessary consequence of having to stay overnight for Parliamentary duties in Edinburgh. (4) Where the member claims an allowance under sub-paragraph (3)(b) part way through the financial year, then the amount of the allowance payable under that paragraph shall be apportioned on a pro rata basis. (5) The costs referred to in sub-paragraph (3) relate only to the provision and use as residential accommodation of a property located in the City of Edinburgh and are ( a) the rent payable for the lease of the property; (b) the interest on the capital required to purchase the property; (c) council tax; (d) factoring charges; and (e) the provision of utilities. (6) Where a member's main residence falls within Group Two of Annex B, the member may refer his or her case to the SPCB and, where there are extenuating circumstances, the SPCB may determine that the member may for the purposes of this paragraph be treated as if his or her main residence fell within Group Three of Annex B. (7) The SPCB shall publish for each financial year information about any allowance payable under this paragraph including the name of the city, town or village where each member's main residence is located .

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" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704381", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26610, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 322.0, "ID": 26610, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 373.0, "ContributionID": 704381, "EditedText": "A: Relationships Between Members (1) Any constituent can approach any MSP within his or her constituency or region. (2) If a constituent seeks to approach a particular MSP, the constituent must be directed to that MSP by other MSPs or their staff. (3) All MSPs have a right to hold surgeries within the area for which they were returned. (4) Any constituent from outside a region who approaches an MSP with a constituency issue should be directed initially to a relevant MSP. (5) Any list MSP who raises a constituency issue should notify the relevant constituency MSP at the outset unless the consent of the constituent is withheld. (6) Any MSP who is approached by a constituent with an issue related to a reserved matter (e.g. social security) should consult with the appropriate Westminster MP. B: Offices (1) Each MSP will normally have one Parliamentary office base within the area for which he or she was returned that will be his or her registered local address for correspondence. (2) All MSPs' offices will be presented as ‘The Office of Ms X, Member of the Scottish Parliament' in the Parliament's colours. It should be possible to identify the party affiliation of the MSP as well, if desired. (3) Parliamentary offices may be acquired in association with political party premises, but must be a clearly definable office space. Party political material is not permitted to be externally displayed in areas occupied by the Parliamentary office. (4) Parliamentary offices should be suitable for public access. (5) MSPs will be able to use offices/locations, other than their main base, within the area for which they were returned for surgery purposes. C: Activities (1) Premises, or the relevant part of premises, acquired as Parliamentary offices should be used only for parliamentary activities, and not for party business. (2) During the hours that they are employed by an MSP under his or her staff allowance, an MSP's employees may not undertake any significant party political activity. (3) MSPs will be responsible to the SPCB for the activities of their staff as for their own activities. (4) Premises, or the relevant part of premises, acquired as Parliamentary offices shall not be used as a base for canvassing or election campaigning, or any party activity related to elections. (5) Parliamentary stationery and office equipment must not be used for party purposes. D: Responsibilities (1) Each MSP has a duty to ensure that he or she utilises the allowances to which he or she is eligible for the purpose for which they were intended. This includes any allowances for which he or she is eligible, but which are utilised by members of staff or immediate family. (2) Each MSP has a duty to ensure that he or she adheres to the terms of this code in spirit and in practice.", "EditedTextHTML": "A: Relationships Between Members (1) Any constituent can approach any MSP within his or her constituency or region. (2) If a constituent seeks to approach a particular MSP, the constituent must be directed to that MSP by other MSPs or their staff. (3) All MSPs have a right to hold surgeries within the area for which they were returned. (4) Any constituent from outside a region who approaches an MSP with a constituency issue should be directed initially to a relevant MSP. (5) Any list MSP who raises a constituency issue should notify the relevant constituency MSP at the outset unless the consent of the constituent is withheld. (6) Any MSP who is approached by a constituent with an issue related to a reserved matter (e.g. social security) should consult with the appropriate Westminster MP. B: Offices (1) Each MSP will normally have one Parliamentary office base within the area for which he or she was returned that will be his or her registered local address for correspondence. (2) All MSPs' offices will be presented as ‘The Office of Ms X, Member of the Scottish Parliament' in the Parliament's colours. It should be possible to identify the party affiliation of the MSP as well, if desired. (3) Parliamentary offices may be acquired in association with political party premises, but must be a clearly definable office space. Party political material is not permitted to be externally displayed in areas occupied by the Parliamentary office. (4) Parliamentary offices should be suitable for public access. (5) MSPs will be able to use offices/locations, other than their main base, within the area for which they were returned for surgery purposes. C: Activities (1) Premises, or the relevant part of premises, acquired as Parliamentary offices should be used only for parliamentary activities, and not for party business. (2) During the hours that they are employed by an MSP under his or her staff allowance, an MSP's employees may not undertake any significant party political activity. (3) MSPs will be responsible to the SPCB for the activities of their staff as for their own activities. (4) Premises, or the relevant part of premises, acquired as Parliamentary offices shall not be used as a base for canvassing or election campaigning, or any party activity related to elections. (5) Parliamentary stationery and office equipment must not be used for party purposes. D: Responsibilities (1) Each MSP has a duty to ensure that he or she utilises the allowances to which he or she is eligible for the purpose for which they were intended. This includes any allowances for which he or she is eligible, but which are utilised by members of staff or immediate family. (2) Each MSP has a duty to ensure that he or she adheres to the terms of this code in spirit and in practice.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704383", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26610, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 322.0, "ID": 26610, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 375.0, "ContributionID": 704383, "EditedText": "ELIGIBILITY FOR EDINBURGH ACCOMMODATION ALLOWANCES", "EditedTextHTML": "ELIGIBILITY FOR EDINBURGH ACCOMMODATION ALLOWANCES

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704387", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26610, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 322.0, "ID": 26610, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 379.0, "ContributionID": 704387, "EditedText": "East Lothian North East Fife Central Fife Kirkcaldy Dunfermline East Dunfermline West Ochil Falkirk East Falkirk West Cumbernauld & Kilsyth Airdrie & Shotts Coatbridge & Chryston Hamilton North & Bellshill Motherwell & Wishaw Hamilton South", "EditedTextHTML": "East Lothian North East Fife Central Fife Kirkcaldy Dunfermline East Dunfermline West Ochil Falkirk East Falkirk West Cumbernauld & Kilsyth Airdrie & Shotts Coatbridge & Chryston Hamilton North & Bellshill Motherwell & Wishaw Hamilton South

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704390", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26610, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 322.0, "ID": 26610, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 382.0, "ContributionID": 704390, "EditedText": "Stirling Perth Dundee East Dundee West Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale", "EditedTextHTML": "Stirling Perth Dundee East Dundee West Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704393", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26610, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 322.0, "ID": 26610, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 385.0, "ContributionID": 704393, "EditedText": "Clydebank & Milngavie Cunninghame North Cunninghame South Dumbarton Dumfries East Kilbride Eastwood Galloway and Upper Nithsdale Gordon Greenock & Inverclyde Inverness East Nairn & Lochaber Kilmarnock & Loudon Moray Orkney Renfrewshire West Ross, Skye & Inverness West Roxburgh & Berwickshire Shetland Tayside North Western Isles", "EditedTextHTML": "Clydebank & Milngavie Cunninghame North Cunninghame South Dumbarton Dumfries East Kilbride Eastwood Galloway and Upper Nithsdale Gordon Greenock & Inverclyde Inverness East Nairn & Lochaber Kilmarnock & Loudon Moray Orkney Renfrewshire West Ross, Skye & Inverness West Roxburgh & Berwickshire Shetland Tayside North Western Isles

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704395", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26610, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 322.0, "ID": 26610, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 387.0, "ContributionID": 704395, "EditedText": "ELIGIBILITY FOR EXCEPTIONAL NEEDS ALLOWANCE", "EditedTextHTML": "ELIGIBILITY FOR EXCEPTIONAL NEEDS ALLOWANCE

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704398", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26610, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 322.0, "ID": 26610, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 390.0, "ContributionID": 704398, "EditedText": "C: The largest regions Highlands & Islands North East Scotland South of Scotland\".", "EditedTextHTML": "C: The largest regions Highlands & Islands North East Scotland South of Scotland\".

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704401", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26610, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 322.0, "ID": 26610, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 394.0, "ContributionID": 704401, "EditedText": "That the Parliament direct the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body (\"the SPCB\") as follows:", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament direct the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body (\"the SPCB\") as follows:

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704402", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26610, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 322.0, "ID": 26610, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 395.0, "ContributionID": 704402, "EditedText": "1. Provision of Information Technology and Office Equipment (1) The SPCB shall provide information technology and other office equipment for the Parliament. (2) Where such information technology and other office equipment is provided for the use of a member for the purpose of carrying out his or her Parliamentary duties – (a) the member may select the equipment concerned but only from a list of items specified by the SPCB; (b) the cost of such equipment shall be no more than £5000 in the first year following a general election and no more than £1500 in each of the following years in that session; (c) the member shall be responsible for the maintenance, protection and security of such equipment and the SPCB may, if it has reasonable grounds to believe that any such equipment is being misused, require the return of the equipment. 2. Provision of Office Supplies (1) The SPCB shall provide office supplies and postage stamps or postage paid envelopes for the Parliament. (2) Where such office supplies are provided for the use of a member for the purpose of carrying out his or her Parliamentary duties the member may select the supplies concerned but only from a list of items specified by the SPCB. 3. Publication The SPCB shall publish for each financial year in respect of each member details of the total sums expended under paragraphs 1 and 2 of this direction.", "EditedTextHTML": "1. Provision of Information Technology and Office Equipment (1) The SPCB shall provide information technology and other office equipment for the Parliament. (2) Where such information technology and other office equipment is provided for the use of a member for the purpose of carrying out his or her Parliamentary duties – (a) the member may select the equipment concerned but only from a list of items specified by the SPCB; (b) the cost of such equipment shall be no more than £5000 in the first year following a general election and no more than £1500 in each of the following years in that session; (c) the member shall be responsible for the maintenance, protection and security of such equipment and the SPCB may, if it has reasonable grounds to believe that any such equipment is being misused, require the return of the equipment. 2. Provision of Office Supplies (1) The SPCB shall provide office supplies and postage stamps or postage paid envelopes for the Parliament. (2) Where such office supplies are provided for the use of a member for the purpose of carrying out his or her Parliamentary duties the member may select the supplies concerned but only from a list of items specified by the SPCB. 3. Publication The SPCB shall publish for each financial year in respect of each member details of the total sums expended under paragraphs 1 and 2 of this direction.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704403", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26610, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 322.0, "ID": 26610, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 396.0, "ContributionID": 704403, "EditedText": "4. Parliamentary Duties For the purposes of this direction, \"Parliamentary duties\" shall have the same meaning as in rule 8 of Part A of the Members' Allowances Scheme.", "EditedTextHTML": "4. Parliamentary Duties For the purposes of this direction, \"Parliamentary duties\" shall have the same meaning as in rule 8 of Part A of the Members' Allowances Scheme.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704411", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Park", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26611, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 411.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 411.0, "ID": 26611, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 412.0, "ContributionID": 704411, "EditedText": "Motion debated,", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion debated,

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704412", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Park", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26611, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 411.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 411.0, "ID": 26611, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 413.0, "ContributionID": 704412, "EditedText": "That the Parliament: (a) recognises the importance of the Loch Lomond and Trossachs National Park, the first National Park in Scotland, as an area to be maintained as one of outstanding natural beauty and for potential in terms of social and economic development. (b) encourages the Scottish Executive to consider bringing forward the necessary legislation in relation to the setting up of the first National Park for Scotland at an early opportunity.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament: (a) recognises the importance of the Loch Lomond and Trossachs National Park, the first National Park in Scotland, as an area to be maintained as one of outstanding natural beauty and for potential in terms of social and economic development. (b) encourages the Scottish Executive to consider bringing forward the necessary legislation in relation to the setting up of the first National Park for Scotland at an early opportunity.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1814E135P516C704414", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Park", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26611, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 411.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 411.0, "ID": 26611, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Fabiani, Linda", "ID": 1814, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Linda Fabiani", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Linda Fabiani (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 417.0, "ContributionID": 704414, "EditedText": "My first concern when there is talk of setting up new Government organisations and of changing things is always the control of such organisations, which Dr Jackson mentioned. That concern is understandable, given the years of Conservative rule when privatisation was the name of the game and when decision making, even for institutions with a public remit, was controlled by unelected representatives. Unfortunately, despite Labour's promises at the 1997 election of quango bonfires, the quangos of Scotland are still with us and their number has increased. Will Dr Jackson let us know today her party's real intention for the control of the national park? Will it be controlled by Labour party selection or by democratic election?", "EditedTextHTML": "My first concern when there is talk of setting up new Government organisations and of changing things is always the control of such organisations, which Dr Jackson mentioned. That concern is understandable, given the years of Conservative rule when privatisation was the name of the game and when decision making, even for institutions with a public remit, was controlled by unelected representatives.

Unfortunately, despite Labour's promises at the 1997 election of quango bonfires, the quangos of Scotland are still with us and their number has increased. Will Dr Jackson let us know today her party's real intention for the control of the national park? Will it be controlled by Labour party selection or by democratic election?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C704415", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Park", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26611, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 411.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 411.0, "ID": 26611, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 419.0, "ContributionID": 704415, "EditedText": "There is a problem with the computer screens, so I need to clarify who wants to speak. Dr Simpson, do you want to contribute to this debate?", "EditedTextHTML": "There is a problem with the computer screens, so I need to clarify who wants to speak. Dr Simpson, do you want to contribute to this debate?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C704417", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Park", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26611, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 411.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 411.0, "ID": 26611, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Keith Raffan (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 424.0, "ContributionID": 704417, "EditedText": "I support everything that Dr Jackson has said. I am sorry that I was not able to ask her for permission in advance to speak in this, the first debate on members' business. I hope that she will not object to my speaking. It is important to have debates on constituency issues such as this, and I am glad that the first debate is on this issue. I have not attended any consultation meetings on the Loch Lomond and Trossachs national park, although I have attended a meeting on the proposed Cairngorms national park. It is right that we should set up such parks and I support the Administration in doing so. Scotland is way behind the rest of the country on this issue. I was a member of Parliament in Wales for nine years and saw how valuable the Snowdonia and Brecon Beacons national parks were to conservation and to ensuring an integrated approach, so that the difficult balance between conservation and the environment on the one hand and local economic development on the other could be struck. I do not agree with much that Lord Sewel says, but he has said that it is important that initiatives such as the national parks do not become \"a living museum\". He is right about that. During the European by-election, I participated in a consultation exercise in Ballater. One of the most valuable things that I learnt from that— certainly more valuable than the election result— was the importance of participation by local people in the running of national parks. Ballater is a relatively small village, so I was immensely impressed by the number of local people from every aspect of community life, including mountain rescue, who turned up because they wanted to have a say in how the national park would be set up and run. At one point, when we broke up into small working groups, I sat with members of the mountain rescue team. They had detailed inside knowledge of the entire Cairngorms area, which made the consultation a fascinating exercise. It is important not only to involve local people in committees when national parks are set up, but also to ensure that local people, who know the area inside out, help manage the parks. At the meeting that I attended, one or two people pontificated who had probably never been up a hill in their lives—not even the ones outside Ballater, which are not particularly high. However, some of the people there, such as the mountain rescue team, had a tremendous contribution to make. The success or failure of the national parks will depend on the extent to which we involve local people in their management. Such parks mark a tremendous advance across the board, in conservation of the environment and in planning, as the parks will have planning authority devolved to them from local councils. In effect, they will take over responsibility for the entire area, which makes a lot of sense. I strongly support the principle of national parks, on which I believe Lord James Douglas-Hamilton attempted to take the initiative when he was a minister some time ago. In an article in The Scotsman in January 1989 he was reported as saying that he hoped to encourage the setting up of national parks in Scotland. I hope that real progress can now be made. We have been way behind England and Wales and it is time that we caught up.", "EditedTextHTML": "I support everything that Dr Jackson has said. I am sorry that I was not able to ask her for permission in advance to speak in this, the first debate on members' business. I hope that she will not object to my speaking.

It is important to have debates on constituency issues such as this, and I am glad that the first debate is on this issue. I have not attended any consultation meetings on the Loch Lomond and Trossachs national park, although I have attended a meeting on the proposed Cairngorms national park.

It is right that we should set up such parks and I support the Administration in doing so. Scotland is way behind the rest of the country on this issue. I was a member of Parliament in Wales for nine years and saw how valuable the Snowdonia and Brecon Beacons national parks were to conservation and to ensuring an integrated approach, so that the difficult balance between conservation and the environment on the one hand and local economic development on the other could be struck. I do not agree with much that Lord Sewel says, but he has said that it is important that initiatives such as the national parks do not become \"a living museum\". He is right about that.

During the European by-election, I participated in a consultation exercise in Ballater. One of the most valuable things that I learnt from that— certainly more valuable than the election result— was the importance of participation by local people in the running of national parks. Ballater is a relatively small village, so I was immensely impressed by the number of local people from every aspect of community life, including mountain rescue, who turned up because they wanted to have a say in how the national park would be set up and run. At one point, when we broke up into small working groups, I sat with members of the mountain rescue team. They had detailed inside knowledge of the entire Cairngorms area, which made the consultation a fascinating exercise.

It is important not only to involve local people in committees when national parks are set up, but also to ensure that local people, who know the area inside out, help manage the parks. At the meeting that I attended, one or two people pontificated who had probably never been up a hill in their lives—not even the ones outside Ballater, which are not particularly high. However, some of the people there, such as the mountain rescue team, had a tremendous contribution to make.

The success or failure of the national parks will depend on the extent to which we involve local people in their management. Such parks mark a tremendous advance across the board, in conservation of the environment and in planning, as the parks will have planning authority devolved to them from local councils. In effect, they will take over responsibility for the entire area, which makes a lot of sense.

I strongly support the principle of national parks, on which I believe Lord James Douglas-Hamilton attempted to take the initiative when he was a minister some time ago. In an article in The Scotsman in January 1989 he was reported as saying that he hoped to encourage the setting up of national parks in Scotland. I hope that real progress can now be made. We have been way behind England and Wales and it is time that we caught up.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C704418", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Park", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26611, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 411.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 411.0, "ID": 26611, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 426.0, "ContributionID": 704418, "EditedText": "If members keep their remarks to three minutes, almost every member who wants to speak will be able to do so.", "EditedTextHTML": "If members keep their remarks to three minutes, almost every member who wants to speak will be able to do so.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C704419", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Park", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26611, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 411.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 411.0, "ID": 26611, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr David Davidson (North-East Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 429.0, "ContributionID": 704419, "EditedText": "I must declare an interest in this issue. I have spent many years representing the Trossachs—for the past five years as a member of the local council and before that as a community councillor and community councillor chairman covering the area up to Strath Ard—and am especially interested in the welfare of the people who would be affected by this measure. I hate to think how many meetings I have attended where fears have been expressed about the interests of those who live and try to earn a living in a particular area. Time and again, under the previous Labour administration in Stirling, many of the comments that were made were not listened to. At one stage, no one living in the park was sitting on the various bodies that then existed to discuss the issue or to represent the views of those living in the park. I found that distasteful. I will make the point—Dr Jackson has passed it on and I hope that the minister gets the message— that there is a vital need for input from the people who live and work in that area. They must be present at and able to participate in any discussions. The community councils in the area fought hard for representation. I, as their councillor, fought hard to try to ensure that we would have a two-tier management system; one for the Trossachs and one for Loch Lomond. I am afraid I have to say that the lord who was responsible refused that and decided that we were only going to have one body. In one stroke, local accountability and input were removed. I am sure that that is not what this Parliament is about. I know that earlier on I accused someone of being parochial. I admit to being parochial now, but it is because we must get these things right. In the future, when we consider national parks in other areas of Scotland, I am sure that things will roll out. It is vital that we convey the need for local democratic input. Much lip service is paid to that principle, but I would like to see it in action for the people of the Trossachs.", "EditedTextHTML": "I must declare an interest in this issue. I have spent many years representing the Trossachs—for the past five years as a member of the local council and before that as a community councillor and community councillor chairman covering the area up to Strath Ard—and am especially interested in the welfare of the people who would be affected by this measure.

I hate to think how many meetings I have attended where fears have been expressed about the interests of those who live and try to earn a living in a particular area. Time and again, under the previous Labour administration in Stirling, many of the comments that were made were not listened to. At one stage, no one living in the park was sitting on the various bodies that then existed to discuss the issue or to represent the views of those living in the park. I found that distasteful. I will make the point—Dr Jackson has passed it on and I hope that the minister gets the message— that there is a vital need for input from the people who live and work in that area. They must be present at and able to participate in any discussions.

The community councils in the area fought hard for representation. I, as their councillor, fought hard to try to ensure that we would have a two-tier management system; one for the Trossachs and one for Loch Lomond. I am afraid I have to say that the lord who was responsible refused that and decided that we were only going to have one body. In one stroke, local accountability and input were removed.

I am sure that that is not what this Parliament is about. I know that earlier on I accused someone of being parochial. I admit to being parochial now, but it is because we must get these things right. In the future, when we consider national parks in other areas of Scotland, I am sure that things will roll out. It is vital that we convey the need for local democratic input. Much lip service is paid to that principle, but I would like to see it in action for the people of the Trossachs.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2188E70P92C704420", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Park", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26611, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 411.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 411.0, "ID": 26611, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harper, Robin", "ID": 2188, "PartyName": "Scottish Green Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Green", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robin Harper", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robin Harper (Lothians) (Green): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 432.0, "ContributionID": 704420, "EditedText": "My concerns about the setting up of national parks reflect some of the things that have already been said. With respect to rural Scotland, Scottish Green party policy is that we would like much of it to be considered not as a wonderful and beautiful wilderness, but as a devastated land that was once heavily forested with incredible biodiversity and which was also well populated. When setting up a national park, one should keep in mind that we do not want to see the rest of rural Scotland as a national park. The second point is the concept of carrying capacity. National parks are going to become extremely popular. I have been down to the lake district on a couple of occasions—indeed I was looking at a woodland area there just a few weeks ago—and in the summer the area becomes intolerable for the people who live there. The number of people visiting the park begins to impinge on the area that one wishes to protect and keep beautiful. There is much to learn from Yosemite national park and we would benefit from sending one person there—or perhaps we should invite one person from there to address us so that we cannot be accused of junketing—to learn about the problems that they have had, which, to a large extent, they have solved extremely well.", "EditedTextHTML": "My concerns about the setting up of national parks reflect some of the things that have already been said. With respect to rural Scotland, Scottish Green party policy is that we would like much of it to be considered not as a wonderful and beautiful wilderness, but as a devastated land that was once heavily forested with incredible biodiversity and which was also well populated. When setting up a national park, one should keep in mind that we do not want to see the rest of rural Scotland as a national park.

The second point is the concept of carrying capacity. National parks are going to become extremely popular. I have been down to the lake district on a couple of occasions—indeed I was looking at a woodland area there just a few weeks ago—and in the summer the area becomes intolerable for the people who live there. The number of people visiting the park begins to impinge on the area that one wishes to protect and keep beautiful.

There is much to learn from Yosemite national park and we would benefit from sending one person there—or perhaps we should invite one person from there to address us so that we cannot be accused of junketing—to learn about the problems that they have had, which, to a large extent, they have solved extremely well.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C704432", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Park", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26611, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 411.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 411.0, "ID": 26611, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 460.0, "ContributionID": 704432, "EditedText": "That concludes the Parliament's first members' business debate.", "EditedTextHTML": "That concludes the Parliament's first members' business debate.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.42035+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704433", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Park", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26611, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 411.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 411.0, "ID": 26611, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 462.0, "ContributionID": 704433, "EditedText": "Meeting closed at 17:32.", "EditedTextHTML": "Meeting closed at 17:32.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.42035+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704195", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Tuesday 8 June 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26606, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26606, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 2.0, "ContributionID": 704195, "EditedText": "THE PRESIDING OFFICER opened the meeting at 14:30", "EditedTextHTML": "[THE PRESIDING OFFICER opened the meeting at 14:30]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7484974+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704200", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26607, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26607, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 12.0, "ContributionID": 704200, "EditedText": "That the Parliament agrees the following amendment to the business set out in the business motion agreed by the Parliament on Wednesday 2 June;", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament agrees the following amendment to the business set out in the business motion agreed by the Parliament on Wednesday 2 June;

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704201", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26607, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26607, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 13.0, "ContributionID": 704201, "EditedText": "Tuesday 8 June 1999", "EditedTextHTML": "Tuesday 8 June 1999

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704202", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26607, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26607, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 14.0, "ContributionID": 704202, "EditedText": "Immediately after Decision Time, a debate on the subject of S1M-24 (Dr Sylvia Jackson) to be taken as Members' Business and to be concluded without any question being put no later than 30 minutes after its commencement;", "EditedTextHTML": "Immediately after Decision Time, a debate on the subject of S1M-24 (Dr Sylvia Jackson) to be taken as Members' Business and to be concluded without any question being put no later than 30 minutes after its commencement;

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704204", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26607, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26607, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 16.0, "ContributionID": 704204, "EditedText": "At 10.30 am, a statement by the First Minister on legislation in the UK Parliament about devolved matters followed no later than 11.00 am by a debate on the Consultative Steering Group report and draft Information Strategy; the remaining business to remain as set out in the business motion of 2 June. —Mr McCabe.", "EditedTextHTML": "At 10.30 am, a statement by the First Minister on legislation in the UK Parliament about devolved matters followed no later than 11.00 am by a debate on the Consultative Steering Group report and draft Information Strategy; the remaining business to remain as set out in the business motion of 2 June. —[Mr McCabe.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C704211", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26607, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26607, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 30.0, "ContributionID": 704211, "EditedText": "The question is, that business motion S1M-35, in the name of Tom McCabe, as amended, be agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "The question is, that business motion S1M-35, in the name of Tom McCabe, as amended, be agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704214", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26607, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26607, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 34.0, "ContributionID": 704214, "EditedText": "Tuesday 8 June 1999", "EditedTextHTML": "Tuesday 8 June 1999

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704216", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26607, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26607, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 36.0, "ContributionID": 704216, "EditedText": "Immediately after Decision Time, a debate on the subject of S1M-24 (Dr Sylvia Jackson) to be taken as Members' Business and to be concluded without any question being put no later than 30 minutes after its commencement;", "EditedTextHTML": "Immediately after Decision Time, a debate on the subject of S1M-24 (Dr Sylvia Jackson) to be taken as Members' Business and to be concluded without any question being put no later than 30 minutes after its commencement;

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704217", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26607, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26607, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 37.0, "ContributionID": 704217, "EditedText": "Wednesday 9 June 1999", "EditedTextHTML": "Wednesday 9 June 1999

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2188E70P92C704231", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Committees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26608, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 39.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 39.0, "ID": 26608, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harper, Robin", "ID": 2188, "PartyName": "Scottish Green Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Green", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robin Harper", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robin Harper (Lothians) (Green): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 75.0, "ContributionID": 704231, "EditedText": "Last week, along with Nicol Stephen, Malcolm Chisholm and Donald Gorrie, I was privileged to attend the last meeting of Canon Kenyon Wright's civic forum, People and Parliament. Although that was the last official meeting of People and Parliament, it raised issues about how our committees relate to the public and how we relate to the civic forum, and those issues must be considered at the earliest convenience of the chamber.", "EditedTextHTML": "Last week, along with Nicol Stephen, Malcolm Chisholm and Donald Gorrie, I was privileged to attend the last meeting of Canon Kenyon Wright's civic forum, People and Parliament. Although that was the last official meeting of People and Parliament, it raised issues about how our committees relate to the public and how we relate to the civic forum, and those issues must be considered at the earliest convenience of the chamber.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C704232", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Committees", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26608, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 39.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 39.0, "ID": 26608, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr David Davidson (North-East Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 78.0, "ContributionID": 704232, "EditedText": "Can the Business Manager say whether there is any intention to follow the Scottish Office's current procedure of having advisory committees on specific subjects? It would be helpful if we could know whether that is to be considered by the Parliamentary Bureau. There are many committees that have worked successfully for Scotland—I have served on some health committees, and there are many others. There is great scope for examining specific subjects such as agriculture, which Mr Lyon would no doubt be interested in, and so on, and an early response to this question would be helpful.", "EditedTextHTML": "Can the Business Manager say whether there is any intention to follow the Scottish Office's current procedure of having advisory committees on specific subjects? It would be helpful if we could know whether that is to be considered by the Parliamentary Bureau. There are many committees that have worked successfully for Scotland—I have served on some health committees, and there are many others. There is great scope for examining specific subjects such as agriculture, which Mr Lyon would no doubt be interested in, and so on, and an early response to this question would be helpful.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C704242", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 101.0, "ContributionID": 704242, "EditedText": "Order.", "EditedTextHTML": "Order.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C704238", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell (South of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 93.0, "ContributionID": 704238, "EditedText": "Listening to \"Good Morning Scotland\" today, I was informed that this was likely to be a tawdry debate, which was the opinion of all those people asked to comment on it. I hope that the debate will not be tawdry in any sense. If it is conducted properly, I think that it will show the great strength of the parties here to debate a point of principle no matter how much we disagree with that point—and I profoundly disagree with the terms of the amendments to be discussed. However, it is important at the outset to stress what has been achieved rather than what remains to be achieved. I want to start by paying a very strong tribute to the people who have taken part in the special sub-committee on allowances, which is responsible for the motion in my name on the business list. Four weeks ago—although it seems like four months ago—that small group was asked to convene to discuss the possibility of bringing forward a scheme of allowances to the Parliament on behalf of all the parties. That group has met on innumerable occasions to examine in very great detail the items contained in the motion. Thanks are due to everyone on that group: Andrew Welsh from the SNP; David Davidson and Lord James Douglas-Hamilton from the Tories; Robert Brown from the Liberal Democrats; Jack McConnell, who was preceded by Patricia Ferguson and Kate MacLean from the Labour party. I know that the new politics has arrived when I am prepared to offer thanks and congratulations to Jack McConnell. That should be noted carefully. I also need to thank others who have worked on the motion: the clerks and lawyers who have worked very long hours, the secretaries and others who have typed up endless drafts, and the couriers who have taken versions of this motion round Scotland on various weekends. I particularly thank one who came all the way to my house in Argyll and managed to make it at 2 o'clock in the morning. That was the Scottish equivalent of a Marco Polo journey. We have produced a detailed motion out of all that work and deliberation, but there is one extremely important area still unresolved and it will affect the ability of many members to do their jobs. I will talk first about what appears to have been agreed. This motion is a revolutionary motion. It establishes what is, I hope, the best, most comprehensive and most transparent scheme of allowances that currently exists in any elected body. At the outset of the discussion process, it was obvious that what this Parliament, every member and every party, had to do was to sign on to a system that would be completely transparent. This system requires those in this chamber to account—to the penny—for all of their allowances. It makes sure that allowances are provided on the basis of what is expended. The purpose of providing allowances is to support members in the work that they do. All those points are enshrined in this motion. I am glad that in the scheme there will be a clear schedule of publication. That will cover the work and allowances for each member of the Parliament and for the staff who work for them. The principles of openness and accountability run through this motion, and are intended to do so. As the years go by and the allowances are published, I hope that it will become obvious that members of the Parliament are using the resources provided to them to do the job that they have to do because these resources are provided by the people of Scotland for the people of Scotland. Those resources are only available to members of the Parliament to allow them to undertake the role for which they have been elected. The motion is complicated and I do not want to further complicate the matter by going through every paragraph. There is a detailed scheme for publication. There is also a scheme for enforcement so that if any person thinks that allowances are being misused, there is a way to pick up on that at the earliest notice, and that is in the interests of every member of this Parliament. There is a scheme for virement so that money is not misused or is drawn in the right way and to ensure that we make the proper use of resources. Where we can use resources more effectively by pooling with one or more members, we should certainly do so. There is a scheme for uprating, as it is important that we do not have this debate every year and that once we have set the scheme of allowances we leave it alone, unless it does not work properly. There is a requirement in the scheme that within 18 months it should be reviewed by an independent group for the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body. That will let us see how well it is working. It would be wrong for members to return to consider this scheme year after year. We want a scheme that works well and can move forward. The final two rules are important: these are the rule of equality and the rule of general allowances. The issue of general allowances is self- explanatory. There need to be allowances for resources for staff to assist members in their work, allowances to make sure that offices are run properly, and travel allowances. There must be an Edinburgh accommodation allowance, which is always difficult to decide on and was probably the area where there was the most vociferous debate. Whichever method is used, whether postcodes, residence in constituencies or drawing a circle on a map is used to decide the limits, those methods all create anomalies. Another principle that runs through this scheme is that there should be the right of appeal on any decision that appears unfair. So if members feel that they are being treated unfairly, for example, if they are two minutes or a couple of miles from one of the limits in this scheme, they can discuss that with the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body. There is provision for an exceptional needs allowance where constituencies are too large to be serviced in a single journey and there is a scheme for an overnight subsistence allowance. There are travel allowances for staff and family, for we should not forget that this is a family-friendly Parliament and must be so for members who come from some distance away. There is a disability allowance, a winding-up allowance and provision for an independent review. Then there are some radical innovations. The allowances code seeks to define and police the way in which allowances can be used. That will be extremely useful to every member of this Parliament in ensuring that the scheme works for them. The scheme provides everything that members need to do their jobs. It arose from the members of the allowances group, where there was considerable agreement. However, in one area agreement has not been possible. I greatly regret that, because the issue at the heart of the disagreement is the issue of equality. Equality of treatment does not mean, as I have heard endless people say in television and radio debates, equality of treatment for members of this Parliament. What strikes at the heart of this motion is that the amendments might prevent equality of treatment for voters.", "EditedTextHTML": "Listening to \"Good Morning Scotland\" today, I was informed that this was likely to be a tawdry debate, which was the opinion of all those people asked to comment on it. I hope that the debate will not be tawdry in any sense. If it is conducted properly, I think that it will show the great strength of the parties here to debate a point of principle no matter how much we disagree with that point—and I profoundly disagree with the terms of the amendments to be discussed.

However, it is important at the outset to stress what has been achieved rather than what remains to be achieved. I want to start by paying a very strong tribute to the people who have taken part in the special sub-committee on allowances, which is responsible for the motion in my name on the business list. Four weeks ago—although it seems like four months ago—that small group was asked to convene to discuss the possibility of bringing forward a scheme of allowances to the Parliament on behalf of all the parties. That group has met on innumerable occasions to examine in very great detail the items contained in the motion.

Thanks are due to everyone on that group: Andrew Welsh from the SNP; David Davidson and Lord James Douglas-Hamilton from the Tories; Robert Brown from the Liberal Democrats; Jack McConnell, who was preceded by Patricia Ferguson and Kate MacLean from the Labour party. I know that the new politics has arrived when I am prepared to offer thanks and congratulations to Jack McConnell. That should be noted carefully.

I also need to thank others who have worked on the motion: the clerks and lawyers who have worked very long hours, the secretaries and others who have typed up endless drafts, and the couriers who have taken versions of this motion round Scotland on various weekends. I particularly thank one who came all the way to my house in Argyll and managed to make it at 2 o'clock in the morning. That was the Scottish equivalent of a Marco Polo journey.

We have produced a detailed motion out of all that work and deliberation, but there is one extremely important area still unresolved and it will affect the ability of many members to do their jobs.

I will talk first about what appears to have been agreed. This motion is a revolutionary motion. It establishes what is, I hope, the best, most comprehensive and most transparent scheme of

allowances that currently exists in any elected body.

At the outset of the discussion process, it was obvious that what this Parliament, every member and every party, had to do was to sign on to a system that would be completely transparent. This system requires those in this chamber to account—to the penny—for all of their allowances. It makes sure that allowances are provided on the basis of what is expended. The purpose of providing allowances is to support members in the work that they do. All those points are enshrined in this motion. I am glad that in the scheme there will be a clear schedule of publication. That will cover the work and allowances for each member of the Parliament and for the staff who work for them.

The principles of openness and accountability run through this motion, and are intended to do so. As the years go by and the allowances are published, I hope that it will become obvious that members of the Parliament are using the resources provided to them to do the job that they have to do because these resources are provided by the people of Scotland for the people of Scotland. Those resources are only available to members of the Parliament to allow them to undertake the role for which they have been elected.

The motion is complicated and I do not want to further complicate the matter by going through every paragraph. There is a detailed scheme for publication. There is also a scheme for enforcement so that if any person thinks that allowances are being misused, there is a way to pick up on that at the earliest notice, and that is in the interests of every member of this Parliament. There is a scheme for virement so that money is not misused or is drawn in the right way and to ensure that we make the proper use of resources. Where we can use resources more effectively by pooling with one or more members, we should certainly do so.

There is a scheme for uprating, as it is important that we do not have this debate every year and that once we have set the scheme of allowances we leave it alone, unless it does not work properly. There is a requirement in the scheme that within 18 months it should be reviewed by an independent group for the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body. That will let us see how well it is working. It would be wrong for members to return to consider this scheme year after year. We want a scheme that works well and can move forward.

The final two rules are important: these are the rule of equality and the rule of general allowances. The issue of general allowances is self- explanatory. There need to be allowances for resources for staff to assist members in their work, allowances to make sure that offices are run properly, and travel allowances. There must be an Edinburgh accommodation allowance, which is always difficult to decide on and was probably the area where there was the most vociferous debate. Whichever method is used, whether postcodes, residence in constituencies or drawing a circle on a map is used to decide the limits, those methods all create anomalies.

Another principle that runs through this scheme is that there should be the right of appeal on any decision that appears unfair. So if members feel that they are being treated unfairly, for example, if they are two minutes or a couple of miles from one of the limits in this scheme, they can discuss that with the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body.

There is provision for an exceptional needs allowance where constituencies are too large to be serviced in a single journey and there is a scheme for an overnight subsistence allowance. There are travel allowances for staff and family, for we should not forget that this is a family-friendly Parliament and must be so for members who come from some distance away. There is a disability allowance, a winding-up allowance and provision for an independent review.

Then there are some radical innovations. The allowances code seeks to define and police the way in which allowances can be used. That will be extremely useful to every member of this Parliament in ensuring that the scheme works for them.

The scheme provides everything that members need to do their jobs. It arose from the members of the allowances group, where there was considerable agreement. However, in one area agreement has not been possible. I greatly regret that, because the issue at the heart of the disagreement is the issue of equality. Equality of treatment does not mean, as I have heard endless people say in television and radio debates, equality of treatment for members of this Parliament. What strikes at the heart of this motion is that the amendments might prevent equality of treatment for voters.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C704247", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 111.0, "ContributionID": 704247, "EditedText": "No, please allow me to continue. We are fair people, and we want equality. I have heard three arguments against—", "EditedTextHTML": "No, please allow me to continue. We are fair people, and we want equality. I have heard three arguments against—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1805E13P109C704252", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Whitefield, Karen", "ID": 1805, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Airdrie and Shotts" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Karen Whitefield", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Karen Whitefield: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 122.0, "ContributionID": 704252, "EditedText": "I have no intention of giving way. I am here to speak to the motion and to speak about the people of Airdrie and Shotts. My constituents want a health service that will tackle their poor health record. More people die in my constituency as result of heart disease than in any other part of Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have no intention of giving way. I am here to speak to the motion and to speak about the people of Airdrie and Shotts.

My constituents want a health service that will tackle their poor health record. More people die in my constituency as result of heart disease than in any other part of Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1892E34P73C704253", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Fergusson, Alex", "ID": 1892, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Fergusson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Fergusson (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 124.0, "ContributionID": 704253, "EditedText": "On a point of order. I hope that you will forgive me, Mr Presiding Officer, but I thought that this was a debate on allowances, not a party political broadcast.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. I hope that you will forgive me, Mr Presiding Officer, but I thought that this was a debate on allowances, not a party political broadcast.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1805E13P109C704255", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Whitefield, Karen", "ID": 1805, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Airdrie and Shotts" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Karen Whitefield", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Karen Whitefield: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 128.0, "ContributionID": 704255, "EditedText": "I will. I speak as a constituency member and I intend to speak to the amendment. As I said, more people in my constituency die as a result of heart disease than in any other part of Scotland. Laughter. These are important points and I intend to make them. My constituents know that Labour will deliver. That is why we have invested £500,000 at Monklands district general hospital and why we intend to double the number of heart bypass operations. Those are the issues that are important to the people who live in my constituency, that they want our Parliament to deal with and on which they want their representatives to speak out. Yesterday, I was at a local college where one ofmy constituents asked me why the Parliament was spending time debating allowances for members rather than addressing the real issues that affect her, a single parent who is desperate to get back into work and who cares voluntarily for an elderly neighbour who could not live an independent life without her support. speak today because, once again, the nationalists and the Tories are lining up to enter what appears to be a cosy alliance to call for better resources for themselves. At best, that is self-interest. At worst, it is greed that exhibits a blatant disregard for prudent use of taxpayers' money. The people of Airdrie and Shotts gave me a clear mandate to represent them, and them alone. It is my constituency office that they will visit and my surgeries that they will attend. I alone am accountable to the people of Airdrie and Shotts. I do not believe that there is, nor do I want there to be, two classes of MSP. However, it is essential that the additional work load that I and other constituency MSPs will have is recognised.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will. I speak as a constituency member and I intend to speak to the amendment.

As I said, more people in my constituency die as a result of heart disease than in any other part of Scotland. [Laughter.] These are important points and I intend to make them. My constituents know that Labour will deliver. That is why we have invested £500,000 at Monklands district general hospital and why we intend to double the number of heart bypass operations. Those are the issues that are important to the people who live in my constituency, that they want our Parliament to deal with and on which they want their representatives to speak out.

Yesterday, I was at a local college where one of

my constituents asked me why the Parliament was spending time debating allowances for members rather than addressing the real issues that affect her, a single parent who is desperate to get back into work and who cares voluntarily for an elderly neighbour who could not live an independent life without her support. speak today because, once again, the nationalists and the Tories are lining up to enter what appears to be a cosy alliance to call for better resources for themselves. At best, that is self-interest. At worst, it is greed that exhibits a blatant disregard for prudent use of taxpayers' money.

The people of Airdrie and Shotts gave me a clear mandate to represent them, and them alone. It is my constituency office that they will visit and my surgeries that they will attend. I alone am accountable to the people of Airdrie and Shotts.

I do not believe that there is, nor do I want there to be, two classes of MSP. However, it is essential that the additional work load that I and other constituency MSPs will have is recognised.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C704259", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 136.0, "ContributionID": 704259, "EditedText": "Will Ms Whitefield give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Ms Whitefield give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1805E13P109C704260", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Whitefield, Karen", "ID": 1805, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Airdrie and Shotts" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Karen Whitefield", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Karen Whitefield: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 138.0, "ContributionID": 704260, "EditedText": "I have already said that I will not allow members to intervene. I do not know how much clearer I can make it. I promised that our Parliament would legislate fairly and in the best interests of all Scots, not just the few. I also promised that there would be sound and prudent management of Scotland's finances. Scottish Labour is committed to delivering and to ensuring that we make the most effective use of our resources. I do not believe that it would be in the interests of Scots if one of the first acts of this eagerly awaited Parliament was one of waste that prized the narrow political interests of members above the interests of the people they claim to represent. I am pleased to support this amendment. I move, as an amendment to motion S1M-40, in the name of Michael Russell, in Part A (General Rules) leave out \"Rule 9 (Equality)\" and insert \"Rule 9 – Equal OpportunitiesThrough payment of appropriate allowances, the Scheme shall allow all members equal opportunity to carry out their Parliamentary duties, taking account of the constituencies or regions from which they were returned.\" In Part B (Allowances), paragraph 1 (Staff Allowance), sub-paragraph (1), leave out from first \"member\" to \"£36,000\" and insert \"constituency member shall be eligible for an allowance of £36,000 and a regional member shall be eligible for an allowance of 60% of that amount\". In Part B (Allowances), paragraph 2 (Local Office Costs Allowances), sub-paragraph (1), leave out from \"member\" to \"£10,000\" and insert \"constituency member shall be eligible for an allowance of £10,000 and a regional member shall be eligible for an allowance of 60% of that amount\".", "EditedTextHTML": "I have already said that I will not allow members to intervene. I do not know how much clearer I can make it.

I promised that our Parliament would legislate fairly and in the best interests of all Scots, not just the few. I also promised that there would be sound and prudent management of Scotland's finances. Scottish Labour is committed to delivering and to ensuring that we make the most effective use of our resources. I do not believe that it would be in the interests of Scots if one of the first acts of this eagerly awaited Parliament was one of waste that prized the narrow political interests of members above the interests of the people they claim to represent. I am pleased to support this amendment.

I move, as an amendment to motion S1M-40, in the name of Michael Russell, in Part A (General Rules) leave out \"Rule 9 (Equality)\" and insert

\"Rule 9 – Equal Opportunities

Through payment of appropriate allowances, the Scheme shall allow all members equal opportunity to carry out their Parliamentary duties, taking account of the constituencies or regions from which they were returned.\"

In Part B (Allowances), paragraph 1 (Staff Allowance), sub-paragraph (1), leave out from first \"member\" to \"£36,000\" and insert

\"constituency member shall be eligible for an allowance of £36,000 and a regional member shall be eligible for an allowance of 60% of that amount\".

In Part B (Allowances), paragraph 2 (Local Office Costs Allowances), sub-paragraph (1), leave out from \"member\" to \"£10,000\" and insert

\"constituency member shall be eligible for an allowance of £10,000 and a regional member shall be eligible for an allowance of 60% of that amount\".

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2234E7P20C704264", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Aitken, Bill", "ID": 2234, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bill Aitken", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bill Aitken: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 148.0, "ContributionID": 704264, "EditedText": "I am slightly behind the times, but I am pleased to have been able to introduce a degree of humour into the proceedings. There is nothing more unedifying than the sight and sound of elected members quibbling about their allowances. We would far rather be talking about other matters. Any diffidence I had vanished after hearing from Karen Whitefield, because she articulated the crux of the matter. The tenor of her speech, and its content, was indicative of the fact that the Labour party is selectively democratic. It is seeking to deny resources to the Opposition parties to prevent their operating effectively in areas that it regards as its own baronial fiefdom. I find that disgraceful. I do not recall Miss Whitefield showing the same concern for prudence with the public purse when she cheerfully voted with her colleagues in the Labour party and the Liberals to put into power this bloated Administration. I see from her speeches in the past that she has not consistently been opposed to public expenditure, so is it not with some hypocrisy that the Labour party proposes this amendment? The Labour party is seeking to deny those who might oppose it the opportunity of doing so effectively. It is a pity that the debate has taken such a turn. Mike Russell's comments were particularly apposite; much has been achieved to enable this motion to be debated today. Achieving what has been achieved thus far must have been an exhaustive and, no doubt, exhausting process, so it is distressing that the atmosphere has been soured by what the Administration is seeking to do. What is it afraid of? Does it feel—Karen Whitefield denied it quite vigorously—that we who are elected as regional members will suborn Administration members' activities on behalf of their constituents? That is certainly not the intention. People must work in partnership. The new politics decree that people should work in partnership for the better of the people of Scotland. What is happening today is an attempt to ensure that that does not happen. Mrs Smith's amendment does not find any great favour. It is a typical Liberal ploy to fly midway between two areas of conflict. While what she said may have been offered in the spirit of compromise, it is not likely to have much support from us or the SNP. Today, we are seeking to achieve a degree of equality. Is it not ironic that the Labour party, the great champion of equality, opportunity and equal rights for all, should be seeking to deny the Opposition the rights that it deserves—indeed requires—to ensure that this Parliament works effectively and in the best interests of all our constituents? It is depressing that Labour should adopt that attitude. We had hoped that things had changed.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am slightly behind the times, but I am pleased to have been able to introduce a degree of humour into the proceedings.

There is nothing more unedifying than the sight and sound of elected members quibbling about their allowances. We would far rather be talking about other matters. Any diffidence I had vanished after hearing from Karen Whitefield, because she articulated the crux of the matter. The tenor of her speech, and its content, was indicative of the fact that the Labour party is selectively democratic. It is seeking to deny resources to the Opposition parties to prevent their operating effectively in areas that it regards as its own baronial fiefdom. I find that disgraceful.

I do not recall Miss Whitefield showing the same concern for prudence with the public purse when she cheerfully voted with her colleagues in the Labour party and the Liberals to put into power this bloated Administration. I see from her speeches in the past that she has not consistently been opposed to public expenditure, so is it not with some hypocrisy that the Labour party proposes this amendment? The Labour party is seeking to deny those who might oppose it the opportunity of doing so effectively.

It is a pity that the debate has taken such a turn. Mike Russell's comments were particularly apposite; much has been achieved to enable this motion to be debated today. Achieving what has been achieved thus far must have been an exhaustive and, no doubt, exhausting process, so it is distressing that the atmosphere has been soured by what the Administration is seeking to do. What is it afraid of? Does it feel—Karen Whitefield denied it quite vigorously—that we who are elected as regional members will suborn Administration members' activities on behalf of their constituents? That is certainly not the intention.

People must work in partnership. The new politics decree that people should work in partnership for the better of the people of Scotland. What is happening today is an attempt to ensure that that does not happen.

Mrs Smith's amendment does not find any great favour. It is a typical Liberal ploy to fly midway between two areas of conflict. While what she said may have been offered in the spirit of compromise, it is not likely to have much support from us or the SNP.

Today, we are seeking to achieve a degree of equality. Is it not ironic that the Labour party, the great champion of equality, opportunity and equal rights for all, should be seeking to deny the Opposition the rights that it deserves—indeed requires—to ensure that this Parliament works effectively and in the best interests of all our constituents? It is depressing that Labour should adopt that attitude. We had hoped that things had changed.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C704265", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 150.0, "ContributionID": 704265, "EditedText": "It might help members if I say that if everyone limits their speech to four minutes there should be time for everybody who has asked to speak.", "EditedTextHTML": "It might help members if I say that if everyone limits their speech to four

minutes there should be time for everybody who has asked to speak.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1811E172P455C704266", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ullrich, Kay", "ID": 1811, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kay Ullrich", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Kay Ullrich (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 153.0, "ContributionID": 704266, "EditedText": "Mr Presiding Officer—did I get it right?", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Presiding Officer—did I get it right?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1826E199P351C704261", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Smith, Margaret", "ID": 1826, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Smith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Margaret Smith (Edinburgh West) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 141.0, "ContributionID": 704261, "EditedText": "I must say that, over the past few months, as daydreamed from time to time about making my maiden speech in this chamber, the topic of members' allowances was never the one that I was on my feet to address. I share Mr Muldoon's frustration—I think it is felt by many of us. We want to start to address the questions that matter to the people of Scotland, such as the health service, education systems and housing—I will not go into all the issues that I want to spend my time working on on behalf of the people of Edinburgh West and the people of Scotland. It is a shame that we are debating this issue in this way. As Mr Russell said, there is no need for us to stoop to the level of making this a tawdry debate because much of this motion is welcomed whole-heartedly by all parties. There is only one sticking point. I hope that members will accept the Liberal Democrat amendment. The motion is important: it is not about high politics but about making politics work for people. It is about ensuring that we give the people of Scotland the quality of service that we want to give them. It means giving MSPs the tools that they need to do their job. I dispute the points made by Karen Whitefield. Every member has been elected to serve the people who elected them. I am proud to serve the people of Edinburgh West and I know that every other member is proud to serve the people who sent them here. I do not think that we should be scoring points against one another on the back of that. It is important to give MSPs the tools they need to do their job and to be super MSPs. That means we need staff, offices, stationery and all the other things that go towards doing the job. Those items may be boring and uninspiring but, quite frankly, they are the building blocks of our democracy. Without them we do not do our job properly. The motion is also about putting in place an allowances scheme that represents value for money for Scottish taxpayers and is, as Mr Russell rightly said, open, transparent and subject to scrutiny. It is about setting down the relationship between members. During the next 18 months and beyond, the relationship between constituency MSPs, of which I am one, and list MSPs will evolve. I do not think that any member claims to know exactly where that relationship is going. MSPs have to give one another respect. The motion is also about protecting staff rights and the rights of the public to have access to their MSPs through surgeries, for example. Each of those is an essential component of a modern parliamentary democracy. On staff allowances, we support the motion as it stands. Many of us may think that constituency MSPs will have a bigger postbag than list MSPs but, as I have said, the relationship will evolve and I do not believe that anyone can say categorically today how it will evolve. We do not believe that the introduction of first and second-class MSPs is in the best interests of this Parliament or the people we seek to serve. Some will argue about that, but we do not think that it is right to accept that approach at this point. We welcome the fact that that issue will be reviewed. I agree with Mr Russell that we should not return to it ad infinitum. At the end of 18 months, we will consider whether the allowance scheme has delivered, not only for us but, most important, for the people we serve. All MSPs will have duties that they need staff to perform. That is why we are happy to support the motion on that point. Our amendment recognises that MSPs have been elected to represent different constituencies; there are first-past-thepost and regional list constituencies. Our view is that it is reasonable to have an office allowance for the constituency. For constituency MSPs that means an office in their constituency; for party list MSPs it means, under our amendment, a regional office to be used by regional members. That maintains the link with the constituency the MSP was elected to serve and reduces the amount of public money that is spent on what might prove an unnecessary, and possibly sometimes confusing, plethora of political offices. Our amendment sets out the details of payments for all to see. We recognise, however, that while our proposals work well in cities such as Glasgow, they have limitations in areas such as South of Scotland, the Highlands and Islands and North- East Scotland, so they are covered by the exceptional needs allowance. We are pleased that the scheme will be subject to an independent review within 18 months. It would be amazing if the scheme did not have some teething problems. I welcome all the work that was done by the members of the group and the supporting officials, but there will be teething problems and odd things will happen. I call on the corporate body to keep an eye on the scheme. At the end of the period, the independent review should be able to propose any necessary changes and present them to Parliament. Liberal Democrats believe that the issue of allowances is for Parliament to decide. My group will have a free vote on the matter, as will some other parties. I hope that colleagues from all parties will see that the Liberal Democrat amendment gives each and every member the chance to serve the people of Scotland to the best of their abilities. I commend it to members for their support. I move, as an amendment to motion S1M-40, in the name of Michael Russell, in Part A, rule 9 (Equality), at end insert \"subject to paragraph 2 of Part B\".In Part B, paragraph 2 (Local Office Costs Allowance), sub-paragraph (1), leave out \"subparagraph (2)\" and insert \"sub-paragraphs (2), (2A), (2B) and (2C)\".In Part B, paragraph 2 (Local Office Costs Allowance), after sub-paragraph (2), insert— \"(2A) Where in a particular region more than one regional member is returned from a registered political party's regional list, the amount of local office costs allowance for which each such regional member is eligible shall not be £10,000 but shall instead be computed as follows— (a) there shall be added together the amount of the office costs allowance referred to in paragraph (1) in respect of one such regional member and 30% of that sum in respect of each of the other such regional members; (b) the resulting total sum shall be divided by the number of such regional members; and (c) that amount shall be the local office costs allowance for which each such regional member shall be eligible. (2B) Subject to sub-paragraph (2C), where sub-paragraph (2A) applies the office costs allowance shall be used to enable the regional members concerned— (a) to run only one office in the particular region; and (b) to meet constituents either on a one to one basis or as a group; and accordingly some or all of the regional members concerned may pool all or part of their allowances under this paragraph in order to run such an office provided that the members concerned give written notice to the SPCB. (2C) Where sub-paragraph (2A) applies in relation to a region mentioned in section C of Annex C (eligibility for exceptional needs allowance: the largest regions), the SPCB— (a) may determine after inquiry that the regional members concerned may run one additional office because that is necessary for the regional members concerned to carry out their Parliamentary duties effectively; and (b) in those circumstances may increase the local office costs allowance to which each of the regional members concerned is entitled by such a sum as the SPCB may determine but the total of such increases shall not exceed 100% of the office costs allowance referred to in sub-paragraph (1).\" In Annex A (Allowances Code), section B (offices), paragraph (1), leave out \"should\" and insert \"will normally have\". In Annex A (Allowances Code) section B (Offices), paragraph (5), leave out \"and other\".", "EditedTextHTML": "I must say that, over the past few months, as daydreamed from time to time about making my maiden speech in this chamber, the topic of members' allowances was never the one that I was on my feet to address.

I share Mr Muldoon's frustration—I think it is felt by many of us. We want to start to address the questions that matter to the people of Scotland, such as the health service, education systems and housing—I will not go into all the issues that I want

to spend my time working on on behalf of the people of Edinburgh West and the people of Scotland.

It is a shame that we are debating this issue in this way. As Mr Russell said, there is no need for us to stoop to the level of making this a tawdry debate because much of this motion is welcomed whole-heartedly by all parties. There is only one sticking point.

I hope that members will accept the Liberal Democrat amendment. The motion is important: it is not about high politics but about making politics work for people. It is about ensuring that we give the people of Scotland the quality of service that we want to give them. It means giving MSPs the tools that they need to do their job.

I dispute the points made by Karen Whitefield. Every member has been elected to serve the people who elected them. I am proud to serve the people of Edinburgh West and I know that every other member is proud to serve the people who sent them here. I do not think that we should be scoring points against one another on the back of that.

It is important to give MSPs the tools they need to do their job and to be super MSPs. That means we need staff, offices, stationery and all the other things that go towards doing the job. Those items may be boring and uninspiring but, quite frankly, they are the building blocks of our democracy. Without them we do not do our job properly.

The motion is also about putting in place an allowances scheme that represents value for money for Scottish taxpayers and is, as Mr Russell rightly said, open, transparent and subject to scrutiny. It is about setting down the relationship between members. During the next 18 months and beyond, the relationship between constituency MSPs, of which I am one, and list MSPs will evolve. I do not think that any member claims to know exactly where that relationship is going. MSPs have to give one another respect.

The motion is also about protecting staff rights and the rights of the public to have access to their MSPs through surgeries, for example. Each of those is an essential component of a modern parliamentary democracy.

On staff allowances, we support the motion as it stands. Many of us may think that constituency MSPs will have a bigger postbag than list MSPs but, as I have said, the relationship will evolve and I do not believe that anyone can say categorically today how it will evolve.

We do not believe that the introduction of first and second-class MSPs is in the best interests of this Parliament or the people we seek to serve. Some will argue about that, but we do not think that it is right to accept that approach at this point. We welcome the fact that that issue will be reviewed. I agree with Mr Russell that we should not return to it ad infinitum. At the end of 18 months, we will consider whether the allowance scheme has delivered, not only for us but, most important, for the people we serve.

All MSPs will have duties that they need staff to perform. That is why we are happy to support the motion on that point. Our amendment recognises that MSPs have been elected to represent different constituencies; there are first-past-thepost and regional list constituencies. Our view is that it is reasonable to have an office allowance for the constituency. For constituency MSPs that means an office in their constituency; for party list MSPs it means, under our amendment, a regional office to be used by regional members. That maintains the link with the constituency the MSP was elected to serve and reduces the amount of public money that is spent on what might prove an unnecessary, and possibly sometimes confusing, plethora of political offices.

Our amendment sets out the details of payments for all to see. We recognise, however, that while our proposals work well in cities such as Glasgow, they have limitations in areas such as South of Scotland, the Highlands and Islands and North- East Scotland, so they are covered by the exceptional needs allowance.

We are pleased that the scheme will be subject to an independent review within 18 months. It would be amazing if the scheme did not have some teething problems. I welcome all the work that was done by the members of the group and the supporting officials, but there will be teething problems and odd things will happen. I call on the corporate body to keep an eye on the scheme. At the end of the period, the independent review should be able to propose any necessary changes and present them to Parliament.

Liberal Democrats believe that the issue of allowances is for Parliament to decide. My group will have a free vote on the matter, as will some other parties. I hope that colleagues from all parties will see that the Liberal Democrat amendment gives each and every member the chance to serve the people of Scotland to the best of their abilities. I commend it to members for their support.

I move, as an amendment to motion S1M-40, in the name of Michael Russell, in Part A, rule 9 (Equality), at end insert

\"subject to paragraph 2 of Part B\".

In Part B, paragraph 2 (Local Office Costs Allowance), sub-paragraph (1), leave out \"subparagraph (2)\" and insert

\"sub-paragraphs (2), (2A), (2B) and (2C)\".

In Part B, paragraph 2 (Local Office Costs Allowance), after sub-paragraph (2), insert—

\"(2A) Where in a particular region more than one regional member is returned from a registered political party's regional list, the amount of local office costs allowance for which each such regional member is eligible shall not be £10,000 but shall instead be computed as follows— (a) there shall be added together the amount of the office costs allowance referred to in paragraph (1) in respect of one such regional member and 30% of that sum in respect of each of the other such regional members; (b) the resulting total sum shall be divided by the number of such regional members; and (c) that amount shall be the local office costs allowance for which each such regional member shall be eligible. (2B) Subject to sub-paragraph (2C), where sub-paragraph (2A) applies the office costs allowance shall be used to enable the regional members concerned— (a) to run only one office in the particular region; and (b) to meet constituents either on a one to one basis or as a group; and accordingly some or all of the regional members concerned may pool all or part of their allowances under this paragraph in order to run such an office provided that the members concerned give written notice to the SPCB. (2C) Where sub-paragraph (2A) applies in relation to a region mentioned in section C of Annex C (eligibility for exceptional needs allowance: the largest regions), the SPCB— (a) may determine after inquiry that the regional members concerned may run one additional office because that is necessary for the regional members concerned to carry out their Parliamentary duties effectively; and (b) in those circumstances may increase the local office costs allowance to which each of the regional members concerned is entitled by such a sum as the SPCB may determine but the total of such increases shall not exceed 100% of the office costs allowance referred to in sub-paragraph (1).\" In Annex A (Allowances Code), section B (offices), paragraph (1), leave out \"should\" and insert \"will normally have\".

In Annex A (Allowances Code) section B (Offices), paragraph (5), leave out \"and other\".

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1811E172P455C704268", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ullrich, Kay", "ID": 1811, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kay Ullrich", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Kay Ullrich: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 157.0, "ContributionID": 704268, "EditedText": "I very much regret the fact that my first speech in this Parliament is on this matter—a matter that I, like my colleagues who have already spoken, feel should never have reached this chamber. It is before us today because of a scheme that has been dreamed up by new Labour with one simple aim—to stifle all opposition and to deny the people of Scotland the right of access to the MSP of their choice. The SNP motion is about equality and democracy. It is about ensuring, for example, that the 83,000 people in West of Scotland who voted for my colleagues and me should have equal access to us, as their chosen representatives. That was the whole point of proportional representation.", "EditedTextHTML": "I very much regret the fact that my first speech in this Parliament is on this matter—a matter that I, like my colleagues who have already spoken, feel should never have reached this chamber. It is before us today because of a scheme that has been dreamed up by new Labour with one simple aim—to stifle all opposition and to deny the people of Scotland the right of access to the MSP of their choice.

The SNP motion is about equality and democracy. It is about ensuring, for example, that the 83,000 people in West of Scotland who voted for my colleagues and me should have equal access to us, as their chosen representatives. That was the whole point of proportional representation.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1811E172P455C704270", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ullrich, Kay", "ID": 1811, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kay Ullrich", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Kay Ullrich: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 161.0, "ContributionID": 704270, "EditedText": "No.Why should someone from Arran or Dumbarton have to travel to Edinburgh to meet their chosen MSP? There should be no difference between constituency and list members. We are asking for the means to serve our constituents—no more, no less. The Labour amendment, by contrast, can only be described as politically motivated. We can disregard the flowery words that have been used about the public purse—as we in Ayrshire say, facts are chiels that winna ding. The facts are that the amendment flies in the face of the recommendations of the Electoral Reform Society of Great Britain and Ireland, which says that under PR there should not be two classes of MSP. It flies in the face of Scottish new Labour's Welsh colleagues, who describe the position of Labour in Scotland as a kick in the teeth for proportional representation. It flies in the face of Henry McLeish's pre-election pledge that all MSPs would be treated equally. The Labour party's posturing about only trying to protect the public purse is undermined by the fact that under its amendment it is okay for the Labour party to have 20 constituency offices in the city of Glasgow, 10 for MSPs and 10 for Westminster MPs—although we might wonder what the latter will do in their 10 offices. All 20 offices can be had at the expense of the public purse. I want to finish by paraphrasing Henry Ford—it seems that people can have any MSP they want, as long as it is a Labour MSP. I urge members to support our motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

Why should someone from Arran or Dumbarton have to travel to Edinburgh to meet their chosen MSP? There should be no difference between constituency and list members. We are asking for the means to serve our constituents—no more, no less.

The Labour amendment, by contrast, can only be described as politically motivated. We can disregard the flowery words that have been used about the public purse—as we in Ayrshire say, facts are chiels that winna ding. The facts are that the amendment flies in the face of the recommendations of the Electoral Reform Society of Great Britain and Ireland, which says that under PR there should not be two classes of MSP. It flies in the face of Scottish new Labour's Welsh colleagues, who describe the position of Labour in Scotland as a kick in the teeth for proportional representation. It flies in the face of Henry McLeish's pre-election pledge that all MSPs would be treated equally.

The Labour party's posturing about only trying to protect the public purse is undermined by the fact that under its amendment it is okay for the Labour party to have 20 constituency offices in the city of Glasgow, 10 for MSPs and 10 for Westminster MPs—although we might wonder what the latter will do in their 10 offices. All 20 offices can be had at the expense of the public purse.

I want to finish by paraphrasing Henry Ford—it seems that people can have any MSP they want, as long as it is a Labour MSP. I urge members to support our motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C704274", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 170.0, "ContributionID": 704274, "EditedText": "Will Mrs Mulligan give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mrs Mulligan give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C704280", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 182.0, "ContributionID": 704280, "EditedText": "In view of the number of members who now want to speak, my guideline for speeches is now three minutes.", "EditedTextHTML": "In view of the number of members who now want to speak, my guideline for speeches is now three minutes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1876E194P490C704282", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Marwick, Tricia", "ID": 1876, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tricia Marwick", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tricia Marwick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 188.0, "ContributionID": 704282, "EditedText": "It is a matter of regret to me that my first speech in this Parliament is not about homelessness, poor housing conditions or one of the many issues that I care about. It is a pity that this debate is taking place at all. As Mike Russell said, most of the provisions of the motion were reached by consensus. It is a pity that that consensus has been cast aside by the Labour party. It serves none of us well in the eyes of the public that in this Parliament so far we have done little other than to discuss ourselves. This debate should be about parity, principle and the Parliament itself—and about recognition that all MSPs are equal and that none is more equal than others. This debate is about principle in the shape of the Parliament. What we agree today will be difficult to change; other parties would be well advised to consider that point. The staff allowances and office accommodation allowances are not for the benefit of MSPs but are to allow us to do our jobs well and, most important, to provide a service to the people we represent. Until 6 May there was widespread acceptance that all MSPs would be treated equally and that constituents would have a choice of MSP to approach. It is a pity that Henry McLeish is not here to hear this again. He told the House of Commons in May 1998: \"The Scottish people value their Parliament and want it to work for them. The nation does not want the Parliament to work for any political party.\"—Official Report, House of Commons, 19 May 1998; Vol 312, c 719. Ms Whitefield would do well to remember that when she talks about \"my office\", \"my constituents\" or \"my community\". Henry McLeish's words are a bit hollow considering the events of the past few weeks. A number of Labour spokespeople have tried to suggest that there is a difference between list and constituency MPs and that list members will have a different role in this Parliament. My mailbag suggests that that is not the case. I have been contacted by constituents and I intend to take up their concerns and problems. Donald Dewar said in a newspaper article that it is all a question of work load. Can we look forward to the Labour party arguing for a 60 per cent reduction in the allowances of Westminster members, because this Parliament and its members are taking on 60 per cent of their work? I think not. The Welsh Assembly has voted to treat all members equally, but the Labour party in Scotland has set its face against that principle. We are told that devolution means that Wales and Scotland can do things differently if they so choose. It is all right for Alun Michael in Wales, and it is all right for Donald Dewar in Scotland: that is what is meant by choice. Fairness, democracy and equality should be non-negotiable, regardless of where the Parliament is situated. Today's proposals from Labour are hardly fair or equitable and certainly not in keeping with the spirit of the new democracy in Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is a matter of regret to me that my first speech in this Parliament is not about homelessness, poor housing conditions or one of the many issues that I care about. It is a pity that this debate is taking place at all. As Mike Russell said, most of the provisions of the motion were reached by consensus. It is a pity that that consensus has been cast aside by the Labour party. It serves none of us well in the eyes of the public that in this Parliament so far we have done little other than to discuss ourselves.

This debate should be about parity, principle and the Parliament itself—and about recognition that all MSPs are equal and that none is more equal than others. This debate is about principle in the shape of the Parliament. What we agree today will be difficult to change; other parties would be well advised to consider that point. The staff allowances and office accommodation allowances are not for the benefit of MSPs but are to allow us to do our jobs well and, most important, to provide a service to the people we represent. Until 6 May there was widespread acceptance that all MSPs would be treated equally and that constituents would have a choice of MSP to approach. It is a pity that Henry McLeish is not here to hear this again. He told the House of Commons in May 1998:

\"The Scottish people value their Parliament and want it to work for them. The nation does not want the Parliament to work for any political party.\"—[Official Report, House of Commons, 19 May 1998; Vol 312, c 719.]

Ms Whitefield would do well to remember that when she talks about \"my office\", \"my constituents\" or \"my community\". Henry McLeish's words are a bit hollow considering the events of the past few weeks.

A number of Labour spokespeople have tried to suggest that there is a difference between list and constituency MPs and that list members will have a different role in this Parliament. My mailbag suggests that that is not the case. I have been contacted by constituents and I intend to take up their concerns and problems.

Donald Dewar said in a newspaper article that it is all a question of work load. Can we look forward to the Labour party arguing for a 60 per cent reduction in the allowances of Westminster members, because this Parliament and its members are taking on 60 per cent of their work? I think not. The Welsh Assembly has voted to treat all members equally, but the Labour party in Scotland has set its face against that principle. We are told that devolution means that Wales and Scotland can do things differently if they so choose. It is all right for Alun Michael in Wales, and it is all right for Donald Dewar in Scotland: that is what is meant by choice.

Fairness, democracy and equality should be non-negotiable, regardless of where the Parliament is situated. Today's proposals from Labour are hardly fair or equitable and certainly not in keeping with the spirit of the new democracy in Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C704294", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie (Lothians) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 215.0, "ContributionID": 704294, "EditedText": "On a point of order, Mr Presiding Officer. Please could you clarify that the time spent on interventions is not deducted from the speaking time of the member who has the floor, and that Mr McConnell and others, when asked to give way, can do so without diminishing the amount of time that they have in which to make their speeches?", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order, Mr Presiding Officer. Please could you clarify that the time spent on interventions is not deducted from the speaking time of the member who has the floor, and that Mr McConnell and others, when asked to give way, can do so without diminishing the amount of time that they have in which to make their speeches?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C704289", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 205.0, "ContributionID": 704289, "EditedText": "I have only three minutes.We have been flexible about the scheme. We have proposed five different compromises during the past three weeks, and none has been accepted. The response has been an alliance between the Conservatives and the nationalists that has seemed, at times, to be more about looking after themselves than about looking after Scotland. This morning, I tried to find some comment about the prudent use of public finances in the various party election manifestos. I could not find a sentence in David McLetchie's manifesto— strange, for the party that used to be the party of sound public finance. The nationalist manifesto stated that the core issue for the SNP ministry of finance would be \"To ensure the effective and prudent use of Scotland's public finances\".", "EditedTextHTML": "I have only three minutes.

We have been flexible about the scheme. We have proposed five different compromises during the past three weeks, and none has been accepted. The response has been an alliance between the Conservatives and the nationalists that has seemed, at times, to be more about looking after themselves than about looking after Scotland.

This morning, I tried to find some comment about the prudent use of public finances in the various party election manifestos. I could not find a sentence in David McLetchie's manifesto— strange, for the party that used to be the party of sound public finance. The nationalist manifesto stated that the core issue for the SNP ministry of finance would be

\"To ensure the effective and prudent use of Scotland's public finances\".

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2052E154P182C704293", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McConnell, Jack", "ID": 2052, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Motherwell and Wishaw" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Finance", "SpeakerName": "Jack McConnell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McConnell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 213.0, "ContributionID": 704293, "EditedText": "We will put the taxpayers and voters of Scotland first, and we will recognise the one relevant international example that gives us a lead. We will do what is best for Scotland. We will vote for this amendment, and I hope that the other parties live to regret the action that they are taking today.", "EditedTextHTML": "We will put the taxpayers and voters of Scotland first, and we will recognise the one relevant international example that gives us a lead. We will do what is best for Scotland. We will vote for this amendment, and I hope that the other parties live to regret the action that they are taking today.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2140E187P335C704296", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Rumbles, Mike", "ID": 2140, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Rumbles", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Mike Rumbles (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 220.0, "ContributionID": 704296, "EditedText": "The tenor of the debate has brought into question the status of MSPs. That is a shame. There should be no difference in the status of MSPs in this chamber in terms of the job that they do. I will not support the Labour amendment, because I believe that it will hinder the work of the three Conservative and four Scottish National party members who represent North-East Scotland. I have a real problem with the SNP motion, because it talks about equal treatment. I was elected as the constituency member for West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine. I would quite like to open offices in Deeside, Donside and Kincardineshire, but I shall not do so; the motion will give me one office, and that is all I need. The Liberal Democrat amendment is a good compromise between the two opposing viewpoints of Labour and the SNP. I do not like to use the word compromise on this point, but it is the answer to the problem. Constituency MSPs get one office to serve their constituents; they do not need more than that. The regional list MSPs were elected for one region; they need only one regional office. Our amendment caters for the exceptional circumstances in which they might need a larger office, or two offices. This is the second occasion on which I have got to my feet to remind MSPs that we are talking about public money. I urge members to support the Liberal Democrat amendment.", "EditedTextHTML": "The tenor of the debate has brought into question the status of MSPs. That is a shame. There should be no difference in the status of MSPs in this chamber in terms of the job that they do. I will not support the Labour amendment, because I believe that it will hinder the work of the three Conservative and four Scottish National party members who represent North-East Scotland.

I have a real problem with the SNP motion, because it talks about equal treatment. I was elected as the constituency member for West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine. I would quite like to open offices in Deeside, Donside and Kincardineshire, but I shall not do so; the motion will give me one office, and that is all I need.

The Liberal Democrat amendment is a good compromise between the two opposing viewpoints of Labour and the SNP. I do not like to use the word compromise on this point, but it is the answer to the problem. Constituency MSPs get one office to serve their constituents; they do not need more

than that. The regional list MSPs were elected for one region; they need only one regional office. Our amendment caters for the exceptional circumstances in which they might need a larger office, or two offices.

This is the second occasion on which I have got to my feet to remind MSPs that we are talking about public money. I urge members to support the Liberal Democrat amendment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1820E139P227C704298", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Curran, Margaret", "ID": 1820, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Baillieston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Curran", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Curran: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 225.0, "ContributionID": 704298, "EditedText": "Disgraceful. Shame.", "EditedTextHTML": "Disgraceful. Shame.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2099E29P51C704299", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Young, John", "ID": 2099, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Young", "SpeakerDisplayName": "John Young: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 227.0, "ContributionID": 704299, "EditedText": "If I recall correctly, I heard Jack McConnell on the radio this morning saying that all MSPs were equal. I refer to a cutting in The Herald, about Henry McLeish. As devolution minister, he said in evidence to the Scottish Affairs Committee last July: \"The key notion is to make sure we have no two-tier membership. Everyone has a role to play and everyone will be viewed positively. There will be no difference.\" Yet what are we getting this afternoon? We are getting a distinct difference. Speaker after speaker has made it plain that the money will not go into MSPs' pockets—it is for allowances. James Douglas-Hamilton mentioned the South of Scotland region and the vast area that it covers. Even the West of Scotland region covers a vast area, from the northern point of Loch Lomond down to the East Ayrshire district boundary, over to the west, including areas such as Arran and Cumbrae, and over to the central belt. I wonder about the minority parties. Mr Presiding Officer, you are clearly an independent now, and quite rightly so, but with your stature, many constituents might make approaches to you. Will you be denied equality because you are not a member of the Liberal Democrat party in this chamber? You took that decision. Where does the Presiding Officer stand in this instance? I return to the question of equality. Tommy Sheridan is right; he and I served together in the same council in Glasgow. In many local authorities, councillors are often the front-line troops, yet they are paid less than anyone. There is a problem. The idea of list MSPs was introduced and approved at Westminster. The problem is that nobody specified what the duties of a list MSP would be. We know the constituency MSPs' duties, as we know what Westminster MPs do, but what are the list MSPs supposed to do? Again, we have to consider the numbers game. Annabel Goldie and I are the only two Conservatives in the whole of the West of Scotland. MEMBERS: \"Hurrah.\" There will be more, have no fear. We might be asked to go anywhere in the West of Scotland, and we might want to open several different types of office. What will happen when constituency offices already exist, as is the case in Eastwood? If I use that office, will it get no share of the allowance? If constituents in Eastwood come to me, I will not turn them away but will take their cases on board. That is only right, otherwise what am I there for and what am I sitting in the chamber for? I am not here just to take part in debates and to travel around; there is more to it than that. I say to our Labour and Liberal Democrat colleagues that their parties opposed apartheid, as the rest of us did. However, the line that they are following today will create second-class politicians; that line is totally wrong, and Labour and Liberal Democrat members know it.", "EditedTextHTML": "If I recall correctly, I heard Jack McConnell on the radio this morning saying that all MSPs were equal. I refer to a cutting in The Herald, about Henry McLeish. As devolution minister, he said in evidence to the Scottish Affairs Committee last July:

\"The key notion is to make sure we have no two-tier membership. Everyone has a role to play and everyone will be viewed positively. There will be no difference.\"

Yet what are we getting this afternoon? We are getting a distinct difference. Speaker after speaker has made it plain that the money will not go into MSPs' pockets—it is for allowances. James Douglas-Hamilton mentioned the South of Scotland region and the vast area that it covers. Even the West of Scotland region covers a vast area, from the northern point of Loch Lomond down to the East Ayrshire district boundary, over to the west, including areas such as Arran and Cumbrae, and over to the central belt.

I wonder about the minority parties. Mr Presiding Officer, you are clearly an independent now, and quite rightly so, but with your stature, many constituents might make approaches to you. Will you be denied equality because you are not a member of the Liberal Democrat party in this chamber? You took that decision. Where does the Presiding Officer stand in this instance?

I return to the question of equality. Tommy Sheridan is right; he and I served together in the same council in Glasgow. In many local authorities, councillors are often the front-line troops, yet they are paid less than anyone.

There is a problem. The idea of list MSPs was introduced and approved at Westminster. The problem is that nobody specified what the duties of a list MSP would be.

We know the constituency MSPs' duties, as we know what Westminster MPs do, but what are the list MSPs supposed to do? Again, we have to consider the numbers game.

Annabel Goldie and I are the only two Conservatives in the whole of the West of Scotland. [MEMBERS: \"Hurrah.\"] There will be more, have no fear. We might be asked to go anywhere in the West of Scotland, and we might want to open several different types of office. What will happen when constituency offices already exist, as is the case in Eastwood? If I use that office, will it get no share of the allowance? If constituents in Eastwood come to me, I will not turn them away but will take their cases on board. That is only right, otherwise what am I there for and what am I sitting in the chamber for? I am not here just to take part in debates and to travel around; there is more to it than that.

I say to our Labour and Liberal Democrat colleagues that their parties opposed apartheid, as the rest of us did. However, the line that they are following today will create second-class politicians; that line is totally wrong, and Labour and Liberal Democrat members know it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1820E139P227C704300", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Curran, Margaret", "ID": 1820, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Baillieston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Curran", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Curran: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 229.0, "ContributionID": 704300, "EditedText": "Will Mr Young give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr Young give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C704302", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 233.0, "ContributionID": 704302, "EditedText": "Order. Mr Young, you are almost at the end of your time.", "EditedTextHTML": "Order. Mr Young, you are almost at the end of your time.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1888E265P358C704305", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morgan, Alasdair", "ID": 1888, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Galloway and Upper Nithsdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morgan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alasdair Morgan (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 240.0, "ContributionID": 704305, "EditedText": "Will Ms Oldfather give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Ms Oldfather give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C704307", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 244.0, "ContributionID": 704307, "EditedText": "Will Ms Oldfather give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Ms Oldfather give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C704310", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Richard Simpson (Ochil) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 251.0, "ContributionID": 704310, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2080E130P217C704320", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lamont, Johann", "ID": 2080, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Pollok" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Johann Lamont", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Johann Lamont: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 274.0, "ContributionID": 704320, "EditedText": "I am not taking any interventions, so members may as well not bother bobbing up and down. According to Mike Russell's argument, I represent the people of Pollok; Tommy Sheridan, who was beaten in Pollok, represents the whole of Glasgow; and Kenny Gibson, who was beaten in Pollok, represents the whole of Glasgow— presumably, they do not represent Pollok, where they were defeated. Alternatively—still following Mike Russell's argument—Tommy Sheridan and Kenny Gibson represent the people who voted for their parties. However, the allowances should not be used to promote direct party interest. I would condemn anyone in any political party who attempted to use them in that way. The other position that Mike Russell might be suggesting is that the people of Pollok are represented by eight MSPs: me and the seven members who represent the whole of Glasgow. Anyone can see that I will be the first port of call, the first person to whom people will come—I am not saying that I am the only person—and that there will be a clear difference between my responsibilities and those of the seven list members.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am not taking any interventions, so members may as well not bother bobbing up and down.

According to Mike Russell's argument, I represent the people of Pollok; Tommy Sheridan, who was beaten in Pollok, represents the whole of Glasgow; and Kenny Gibson, who was beaten in Pollok, represents the whole of Glasgow— presumably, they do not represent Pollok, where they were defeated.

Alternatively—still following Mike Russell's argument—Tommy Sheridan and Kenny Gibson represent the people who voted for their parties. However, the allowances should not be used to promote direct party interest. I would condemn anyone in any political party who attempted to use them in that way.

The other position that Mike Russell might be suggesting is that the people of Pollok are represented by eight MSPs: me and the seven members who represent the whole of Glasgow. Anyone can see that I will be the first port of call, the first person to whom people will come—I am not saying that I am the only person—and that there will be a clear difference between my responsibilities and those of the seven list members.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C704321", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 276.0, "ContributionID": 704321, "EditedText": "Please draw your speech to a close.", "EditedTextHTML": "Please draw your speech to a close.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2080E130P217C704322", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lamont, Johann", "ID": 2080, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Pollok" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Johann Lamont", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Johann Lamont: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 278.0, "ContributionID": 704322, "EditedText": "The allowance system should reflect and serve the democratic interests of the people of Scotland, not the interests of individual parties. I include my own party in that.", "EditedTextHTML": "The allowance system should reflect and serve the democratic interests of the people of Scotland, not the interests of individual parties. I include my own party in that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2080E130P217C704326", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lamont, Johann", "ID": 2080, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Pollok" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Johann Lamont", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Johann Lamont: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 286.0, "ContributionID": 704326, "EditedText": "Certainly—this is my last point. The charge that we are allowing neither opposition nor access would be justified if the list MSPs were not going to receive any allowances. There is a differential allowance in recognition of the differential work load. We need a monitoring system to check whether, in fact, there is a differential work load; if there is not, we must change the system. The people of Scotland need to be represented and they must not suffer because of debates about individual allowances.", "EditedTextHTML": "Certainly—this is my last point. The charge that we are allowing neither opposition nor access would be justified if the list MSPs were not going to receive any allowances. There is a differential allowance in recognition of the differential work load. We need a monitoring system to check whether, in fact, there is a differential work load; if there is not, we must change the system. The people of Scotland need to be represented and they must not suffer because of debates about individual allowances.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C704330", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 296.0, "ContributionID": 704330, "EditedText": "I will give two minutes each to Ben Wallace and Andy Kerr before the summing-up speeches, so please be brief.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will give two minutes each to Ben Wallace and Andy Kerr before the summing-up speeches, so please be brief.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.3891066+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C704333", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 304.0, "ContributionID": 704333, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1908E166P251C704334", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Kerr, Andy", "ID": 1908, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Kilbride" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andy Kerr", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Kerr: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 306.0, "ContributionID": 704334, "EditedText": "I will not give way.It is against the principles and the great spirit of this Parliament for someone to purport to be a shadow MSP for an area and to be reported in the local papers as being the local MSP when they clearly are not. List MSPs were elected to achieve proportionality. They are equal in the job, but in a different job, which is what Karen Whitefield's amendment is all about. We must support the amendment because list MSPs and constituency MSPs play different roles in the community. We should reject the partnership of greed between the Conservatives and the SNP, which does not recognise the roles that we play in our constituencies. It is misleading to talk about second-class MSPs when the issue in question is value for money. We have to recognise that list MSPs play a different role from constituency MSPs and I therefore beg members to support Karen Whitefield's amendment.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will not give way.

It is against the principles and the great spirit of this Parliament for someone to purport to be a shadow MSP for an area and to be reported in the local papers as being the local MSP when they clearly are not.

List MSPs were elected to achieve proportionality. They are equal in the job, but in a different job, which is what Karen Whitefield's amendment is all about. We must support the amendment because list MSPs and constituency MSPs play different roles in the community.

We should reject the partnership of greed between the Conservatives and the SNP, which does not recognise the roles that we play in our constituencies. It is misleading to talk about second-class MSPs when the issue in question is value for money. We have to recognise that list MSPs play a different role from constituency MSPs and I therefore beg members to support Karen Whitefield's amendment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704340", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 319.0, "ContributionID": 704340, "EditedText": "Motion moved,", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion moved,

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C704346", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26610, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 322.0, "ID": 26610, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 329.0, "ContributionID": 704346, "EditedText": "The question is, that amendment S1M-40.1, in the name of Karen Whitefield, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "The question is, that amendment S1M-40.1, in the name of Karen

Whitefield, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C704348", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26610, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 322.0, "ID": 26610, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 333.0, "ContributionID": 704348, "EditedText": "In that case there will be a division. Members should vote yes to agree to the amendment and no to disagree to the amendment; those who wish to abstain should press the abstain button.", "EditedTextHTML": "In that case there will be a division.

Members should vote yes to agree to the amendment and no to disagree to the amendment; those who wish to abstain should press the abstain button.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704353", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26610, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 322.0, "ID": 26610, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 341.0, "ContributionID": 704353, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704355", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26610, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 322.0, "ID": 26610, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 345.0, "ContributionID": 704355, "EditedText": "FOR Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)Mackay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab) McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)(LD)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)AGAINST Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)Crawford, Bruce JP (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Mackay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)
(LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)

AGAINST

Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Crawford, Bruce JP (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C704356", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26610, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 322.0, "ID": 26610, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 346.0, "ContributionID": 704356, "EditedText": "The result of the division is as follows: Yes 71, No 55, Abstentions 0.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result of the division is as follows: Yes 71, No 55, Abstentions 0.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C704358", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26610, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 322.0, "ID": 26610, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 349.0, "ContributionID": 704358, "EditedText": "The question is, that motion S1M-40, in the name of Mr Michael Russell, as amended by amendment S1M-40.2 in the name of Mrs Margaret Smith, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "The question is, that motion S1M-40, in the name of Mr Michael Russell, as amended by amendment S1M-40.2 in the name of Mrs Margaret Smith, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704360", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26610, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 322.0, "ID": 26610, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 352.0, "ContributionID": 704360, "EditedText": "That the Parliament in accordance with section 81(2) of the Scotland Act 1998 (c.46), make provision for the payment of allowances to members of the Parliament and that the following provisions should have effect:", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament in accordance with section 81(2) of the Scotland Act 1998 (c.46), make provision for the payment of allowances to members of the Parliament and that the following provisions should have effect:

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704366", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26610, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 322.0, "ID": 26610, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 358.0, "ContributionID": 704366, "EditedText": "\"remuneration of staff\" includes gross salaries, employers' national insurance contributions and employers' pension contributions;", "EditedTextHTML": "\"remuneration of staff\" includes gross salaries, employers' national insurance contributions and employers' pension contributions;

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704367", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26610, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 322.0, "ID": 26610, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 359.0, "ContributionID": 704367, "EditedText": "\"main residence\" means the property in which the member is resident for council tax purposes under section 75 of the Local Government Finance Act 1992;", "EditedTextHTML": "\"main residence\" means the property in which the member is resident for council tax purposes under section 75 of the Local Government Finance Act 1992;

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704369", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26610, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 322.0, "ID": 26610, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 361.0, "ContributionID": 704369, "EditedText": "The proper use of allowances payable under this Scheme shall be governed by the Allowances Code at Annex A.", "EditedTextHTML": "The proper use of allowances payable under this Scheme shall be governed by the Allowances Code at Annex A.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704371", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26610, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 322.0, "ID": 26610, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 363.0, "ContributionID": 704371, "EditedText": "Rule 6 – Virement (1) Subject to paragraph (2) of this rule, a member shall not vire amounts between one allowance and another allowance. (2) A member may vire up to 25% of his or her local office costs allowance to use for staffing or up to 25% of his or her staff allowance to use for local office costs provided that written notice is given to the SPCB. Rule 7 – Uprating (2) Subject to paragraphs (2), (3) and (4) of this rule, the SPCB shall uprate allowances on 1 April each year by the amount of increase in the Retail Price Index for the previous financial year. (2) The SPCB shall, unless the Parliament does not agree, uprate the motor vehicle allowance in line with the maximum rate in respects of vehicles over 1199cc set for local government under section 46 of the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1973, and the uprating will become effective at the same time as it does for local government. (3) The SPCB shall uprate the motorcycle mileage allowance at the same time as and in accordance with the corresponding allowance set for staff of the Scottish Administration. (4) The SPCB shall uprate the pedal cycle mileage allowance at the same time as and in accordance with the maximum tax-free allowance set by the Treasury. Rule 8 – Parliamentary Duties (1) All of the allowances referred to in this Scheme are to be used only for the purpose of members carrying out their Parliamentary duties. (2) In this Scheme, \"Parliamentary duties\" means the undertaking of any task or function which a member could reasonably be expected to carry out in his or her capacity as a member of the Parliament including: (a) attending a meeting of the Parliament; (b) attending a meeting of a committee or sub-committee of the Parliament of which the member is a member or which the member is required to attend because of being in charge of a Bill or other matter under consideration by the committee or sub-committee or for any other valid reason relating only to the business of the committee or sub-committee; (c) undertaking research or administrative functions which relate directly to the business of the Parliament; (d) attending meetings for the purpose of representing electors or explaining the application of policy including attending meetings for the purpose of seeing a constituent or constituents; (e) attending Parliamentary party group meetings in Edinburgh; (f) attending any ceremony or official function or national or international conference as a representative of the Parliament or with its authority; but does not include a member's activities which are wholly in relation to that member's role as a Party spokesperson or representative", "EditedTextHTML": "Rule 6 – Virement (1) Subject to paragraph (2) of this rule, a member shall not vire amounts between one allowance and another allowance. (2) A member may vire up to 25% of his or her local office costs allowance to use for staffing or up to 25% of his or her staff allowance to use for local office costs provided that written notice is given to the SPCB. Rule 7 – Uprating (2) Subject to paragraphs (2), (3) and (4) of this rule, the SPCB shall uprate allowances on 1 April each year by the amount of increase in the Retail Price Index for the previous financial year. (2) The SPCB shall, unless the Parliament does not agree, uprate the motor vehicle allowance in line with the maximum rate in respects of vehicles over 1199cc set for local government under section 46 of the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1973, and the uprating will become effective at the same time as it does for local government. (3) The SPCB shall uprate the motorcycle mileage allowance at the same time as and in accordance with the corresponding allowance set for staff of the Scottish Administration. (4) The SPCB shall uprate the pedal cycle mileage allowance at the same time as and in accordance with the maximum tax-free allowance set by the Treasury. Rule 8 – Parliamentary Duties (1) All of the allowances referred to in this Scheme are to be used only for the purpose of members carrying out their Parliamentary duties. (2) In this Scheme, \"Parliamentary duties\" means the undertaking of any task or function which a member could reasonably be expected to carry out in his or her capacity as a member of the Parliament including: (a) attending a meeting of the Parliament; (b) attending a meeting of a committee or sub-committee of the Parliament of which the member is a member or which the member is required to attend because of being in charge of a Bill or other matter under consideration by the committee or sub-committee or for any other valid reason relating only to the business of the committee or sub-committee; (c) undertaking research or administrative functions which relate directly to the business of the Parliament; (d) attending meetings for the purpose of representing electors or explaining the application of policy including attending meetings for the purpose of seeing a constituent or constituents; (e) attending Parliamentary party group meetings in Edinburgh; (f) attending any ceremony or official function or national or international conference as a representative of the Parliament or with its authority; but does not include a member's activities which are wholly in relation to that member's role as a Party spokesperson or representative

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704375", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26610, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 322.0, "ID": 26610, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 367.0, "ContributionID": 704375, "EditedText": "1. Staff Allowance (2) Subject to the provisions of this paragraph, a member shall be eligible for an allowance of £36,000 for each financial year for the purpose of employing staff (whether full time or part time) to assist the member in carrying out his or her Parliamentary duties. The allowance shall include employers' costs such as gross salary, employers' National Insurance contributions and employers' pension contributions. (2) Subject to sub-paragraph (3), staff employed by a member will be employed on the terms and conditions determined by the SPCB from time to time. (3) A member may employ his or her staff on conditions which are more favourable to the employee than those determined by the SPCB provided that this does not entail the member exceeding the amount of his or her staff allowance. (4) Staff of a member shall be bound by the Allowances Code at Annex A. (5) Whilst the remuneration of staff shall be the responsibility of the member, the SPCB shall provide:( a) payroll services for members' staff; and (b) arrangements for employers' pension contributions to be paid to an employee's choice of pension scheme, and members shall provide the SPCB with details about their staff to enable the SPCB to provide such services and make such arrangements. (6) A member may pool his or her staff allowance with another member or other members in order to employ staff who are shared between or amongst them, provided that", "EditedTextHTML": "1. Staff Allowance (2) Subject to the provisions of this paragraph, a member shall be eligible for an allowance of £36,000 for each financial year for the purpose of employing staff (whether full time or part time) to assist the member in carrying out his or her Parliamentary duties. The allowance shall include employers' costs such as gross salary, employers' National Insurance contributions and employers' pension contributions. (2) Subject to sub-paragraph (3), staff employed by a member will be employed on the terms and conditions determined by the SPCB from time to time. (3) A member may employ his or her staff on conditions which are more favourable to the employee than those determined by the SPCB provided that this does not entail the member exceeding the amount of his or her staff allowance. (4) Staff of a member shall be bound by the Allowances Code at Annex A. (5) Whilst the remuneration of staff shall be the responsibility of the member, the SPCB shall provide:( a) payroll services for members' staff; and (b) arrangements for employers' pension contributions to be paid to an employee's choice of pension scheme, and members shall provide the SPCB with details about their staff to enable the SPCB to provide such services and make such arrangements. (6) A member may pool his or her staff allowance with another member or other members in order to employ staff who are shared between or amongst them, provided that

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" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704388", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26610, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 322.0, "ID": 26610, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 380.0, "ContributionID": 704388, "EditedText": "Glasgow Anniesland Glasgow Ballieston Glasgow Cathcart Glasgow Govan Glasgow Kelvin Glasgow Maryhill Glasgow Pollok Glasgow Rutherglen Glasgow Shettleston Glasgow Springburn", "EditedTextHTML": "Glasgow Anniesland Glasgow Ballieston Glasgow Cathcart Glasgow Govan Glasgow Kelvin Glasgow Maryhill Glasgow Pollok Glasgow Rutherglen Glasgow Shettleston Glasgow Springburn

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704391", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26610, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 322.0, "ID": 26610, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 383.0, "ContributionID": 704391, "EditedText": "Group Three", "EditedTextHTML": "Group Three

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704392", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26610, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 322.0, "ID": 26610, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 384.0, "ContributionID": 704392, "EditedText": "Aberdeen Central Aberdeen North Aberdeen South Aberdeenshire West & Kincardine Angus Argyll and Bute Ayr Banff & Buchan Caithness, Sutherland & Easter Ross Carrick, Cumnock & Doon Valley Clydesdale", "EditedTextHTML": "Aberdeen Central Aberdeen North Aberdeen South Aberdeenshire West & Kincardine Angus Argyll and Bute Ayr Banff & Buchan Caithness, Sutherland & Easter Ross Carrick, Cumnock & Doon Valley Clydesdale

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704394", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26610, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 322.0, "ID": 26610, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 386.0, "ContributionID": 704394, "EditedText": "ANNEX C", "EditedTextHTML": "ANNEX C

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704400", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26610, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 322.0, "ID": 26610, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 393.0, "ContributionID": 704400, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C704405", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26610, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 322.0, "ID": 26610, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Alex Salmond (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 399.0, "ContributionID": 704405, "EditedText": "On a point of order—", "EditedTextHTML": "

On a point of order—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C704406", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26610, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 322.0, "ID": 26610, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 401.0, "ContributionID": 704406, "EditedText": "Sorry Alex, just hang on. I am calling Mr Salmond on a point of order; could we have the microphone on please? I do not know what has happened—just shout.", "EditedTextHTML": "Sorry Alex, just hang on. I am calling Mr Salmond on a point of order; could we have the microphone on please? I do not know what has happened—just shout.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704408", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26610, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 322.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 322.0, "ID": 26610, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 405.0, "ContributionID": 704408, "EditedText": "Hear, hear.", "EditedTextHTML": "Hear, hear.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1873E89P171C704413", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Park", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26611, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 411.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 411.0, "ID": 26611, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jackson, Dr Sylvia", "ID": 1873, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Stirling" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sylvia Jackson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Sylvia Jackson (Stirling) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 414.0, "ContributionID": 704413, "EditedText": "I am sorry to see that so many Scottish National party members have left, but not to worry. In February, the Government announced its intention of establishing Loch Lomond and the Trossachs as the first national park in Scotland. The designation recognises the world-class character of this natural resource and tourist attraction. It is an initiative that deserves and has received widespread support, and that could offer a model for developments elsewhere in Scotland. There are, however, many issues still to be considered, and I would like to highlight three of them. First, the national park offers an opportunity to safeguard an area of great natural beauty and the potential sensitively to promote the social and economic development of the Loch Lomond and Trossachs area. Together, those objectives provide a major opportunity for the achievement of sustainable development that creates jobs and also sustain communities in a way that conserves the outstanding landscape. It would, however, be foolish to underestimate the tensions between the two objectives, but those must be resolved.Secondly, the precise boundaries of the national park for Loch Lomond and the Trossachs need to be decided. Such a decision must be made with as much local consultation as possible, but we must learn from the experience in England and Wales. It is important that boundaries can be reviewed and changed as local circumstances change. Thirdly, I will turn directly to the issue of democratic accountability. As Scottish Natural Heritage has argued, we need to promote local community involvement in the identification, governance and management of national parks. The present interim committee, which encompasses the three council areas involved and includes individuals from the various interested groups will, with legislation, be replaced by a national park authority. Through the legislative process, Parliament must look further into the methods and rules for appointing members to a national park authority. My local authority, Stirling Council, is keenly concerned with the development of the Loch Lomond and Trossachs national park. Through a phase of extensive consultation with key partners, the council has already drawn up a comprehensive and far-reaching rural strategy that recognises that the rural landscape around Stirling is a major resource. It is a key amenity for residents and it plays a significant role in the local and national economy. The Loch Lomond and Trossachs park initiative must be developed alongside and as part of the broader rural strategy for Stirling and the adjacent areas of Argyll and Bute and west Dunbartonshire. Much remains to be done if the vision of the first national park for Scotland is to become a reality. The Parliament must view this development as a priority and must ensure that the necessary legislation is brought forward at an early opportunity.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry to see that so many Scottish National party members have left, but not to worry. In February, the Government announced its intention of establishing Loch Lomond and the Trossachs as the first national park in Scotland. The designation recognises the world-class character of this natural resource and tourist attraction. It is an initiative that deserves and has received widespread support, and that could offer a model for developments elsewhere in Scotland.
\nThere are, however, many issues still to be considered, and I would like to highlight three of them. First, the national park offers an opportunity to safeguard an area of great natural beauty and the potential sensitively to promote the social and economic development of the Loch Lomond and Trossachs area. Together, those objectives provide a major opportunity for the achievement of sustainable development that creates jobs and also sustain communities in a way that conserves the outstanding landscape. It would, however, be foolish to underestimate the tensions between the two objectives, but those must be resolved.

Secondly, the precise boundaries of the national park for Loch Lomond and the Trossachs need to be decided. Such a decision must be made with as much local consultation as possible, but we must learn from the experience in England and Wales. It is important that boundaries can be reviewed and changed as local circumstances change.

Thirdly, I will turn directly to the issue of democratic accountability. As Scottish Natural Heritage has argued, we need to promote local community involvement in the identification, governance and management of national parks. The present interim committee, which encompasses the three council areas involved and includes individuals from the various interested groups will, with legislation, be replaced by a national park authority. Through the legislative process, Parliament must look further into the methods and rules for appointing members to a national park authority.

My local authority, Stirling Council, is keenly concerned with the development of the Loch Lomond and Trossachs national park. Through a phase of extensive consultation with key partners, the council has already drawn up a comprehensive and far-reaching rural strategy that recognises that the rural landscape around Stirling is a major resource. It is a key amenity for residents and it plays a significant role in the local and national economy. The Loch Lomond and Trossachs park initiative must be developed alongside and as part of the broader rural strategy for Stirling and the adjacent areas of Argyll and Bute and west Dunbartonshire.

Much remains to be done if the vision of the first national park for Scotland is to become a reality. The Parliament must view this development as a priority and must ensure that the necessary legislation is brought forward at an early opportunity.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C704416", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Park", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26611, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 411.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 411.0, "ID": 26611, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Richard Simpson (Ochil) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 421.0, "ContributionID": 704416, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C704421", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Park", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26611, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 411.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 411.0, "ID": 26611, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 434.0, "ContributionID": 704421, "EditedText": "With members' agreement, I propose to allow the debate to continue for an extra four minutes, on account of our IT problems earlier.", "EditedTextHTML": "With members' agreement, I propose to allow the debate to continue for an extra four minutes, on account of our IT problems earlier.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:09.4047243+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1870E181P475C704315", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robison, Shona", "ID": 1870, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Shona Robison", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Shona Robison (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 263.0, "ContributionID": 704315, "EditedText": "We have to hand it to Labour members for their ability to make speeches with a straight face. New Labour talks about the new politics with a straight face, but then we hear Irene Oldfather's speech. Jack McConnell talks about financial prudence with a straight face then spends more than £500,000 on special advisers to prop up the Labour Administration. We see financial prudence go out of the window when the prospect of 20 new Labour offices in Glasgow springs up—perhaps Jack will take note and start to make some cuts. Karen Whitefield made an interesting speech— she seemed to want the amount of money that members received to be connected to the number of votes cast. Perhaps I could make a special plea on the basis of the votes that were cast in Dundee, where the margin between Labour and the SNP was less than 3,000—in one of the seats, Labour has a majority of around 120. If there is to be a special dispensation on the basis of votes cast, perhaps I can be first in line. The people of Dundee—and of constituencies elsewhere—should be able to go to whom they want. That is democracy. Community groups in Dundee have said to me that it is wonderful that they have a choice of members to go to. They should have that choice. What is wrong with that? I am sure that community groups will exercise their choice to maximum effect. The Labour party is trying to prevent the Opposition from having the resources that it needs to do its job well. That will not go down well with the community groups of Dundee, the voters of Dundee or voters throughout Scotland. Labour is being driven by panic, not principle, and the party will be seen for what it is.", "EditedTextHTML": "We have to hand it to Labour members for their ability to make speeches with a straight face. New Labour talks about the new politics with a straight face, but then we hear Irene Oldfather's speech. Jack McConnell talks about financial prudence with a straight face then spends more than £500,000 on special advisers to prop up the Labour Administration. We see financial prudence go out of the window when the prospect of 20 new Labour offices in Glasgow springs up—perhaps Jack will take note and start to make some cuts.

Karen Whitefield made an interesting speech— she seemed to want the amount of money that members received to be connected to the number of votes cast. Perhaps I could make a special plea on the basis of the votes that were cast in Dundee, where the margin between Labour and the SNP was less than 3,000—in one of the seats, Labour has a majority of around 120. If there is to be a special dispensation on the basis of votes cast, perhaps I can be first in line.

The people of Dundee—and of constituencies elsewhere—should be able to go to whom they want. That is democracy. Community groups in Dundee have said to me that it is wonderful that they have a choice of members to go to. They should have that choice. What is wrong with that? I am sure that community groups will exercise their choice to maximum effect.

The Labour party is trying to prevent the Opposition from having the resources that it needs to do its job well. That will not go down well with the community groups of Dundee, the voters of Dundee or voters throughout Scotland. Labour is being driven by panic, not principle, and the party will be seen for what it is.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:01:17.555696+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C704422", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Park", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26611, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 411.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 411.0, "ID": 26611, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fergus Ewing (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 437.0, "ContributionID": 704422, "EditedText": "I congratulate Dr Jackson on raising a debate on a matter which the people of Scotland will expect us to solve in a way relatively free from party political considerations. I would like to declare a number of interests. The second proposed national park in the Cairngorms falls within my constituency and many of the general issues that Dr Jackson touched upon have a similar, if slightly different, effect in my constituency. The approach of this chamber should be to select the best elements from the rest of the world's experience of national parks and to learn from them, especially the lake district where the pressure has been unacceptable. I should perhaps declare a further interest. Early this morning I went for a run, although that is perhaps an exaggeration of the speed, on the west Highland way. I ventured up Conic hill. The view from the top can be bettered only by views from the Cairngorms. I happened to meet a local shepherd and I asked him his views about this debate, because I was aware that it was in the business bulletin. He said that we must not have another quango, and a national park where the board of management is dominated by people who are not based in the area and who are not knowledgeable about local issues. I would like to see an elected body, comprising a majority of local residents, which has access to expert advice. That is suitable and necessary. The second issue is one of expense. How much will the park cost per year? How will it be funded? Will the Labour party take this opportunity to rule out local road tolls, which were proposed by Scottish Natural Heritage as one method of funding?", "EditedTextHTML": "I congratulate Dr Jackson on raising a debate on a matter which the people of Scotland will expect us to solve in a way relatively free from party political considerations.

I would like to declare a number of interests. The second proposed national park in the Cairngorms falls within my constituency and many of the general issues that Dr Jackson touched upon have a similar, if slightly different, effect in my constituency.

The approach of this chamber should be to select the best elements from the rest of the world's experience of national parks and to learn from them, especially the lake district where the pressure has been unacceptable.

I should perhaps declare a further interest. Early this morning I went for a run, although that is perhaps an exaggeration of the speed, on the west Highland way. I ventured up Conic hill. The view from the top can be bettered only by views from the Cairngorms. I happened to meet a local shepherd and I asked him his views about this debate, because I was aware that it was in the business bulletin. He said that we must not have another quango, and a national park where the board of management is dominated by people who are not based in the area and who are not knowledgeable about local issues. I would like to see an elected body, comprising a majority of local residents, which has access to expert advice. That is suitable and necessary.

The second issue is one of expense. How much will the park cost per year? How will it be funded? Will the Labour party take this opportunity to rule out local road tolls, which were proposed by Scottish Natural Heritage as one method of funding?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:01:17.555696+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1866E110P248C704431", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Park", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26611, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 411.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 411.0, "ID": 26611, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Boyack, Sarah", "ID": 1866, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Transport and the Environment", "SpeakerName": "Sarah Boyack", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Sarah Boyack: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 458.0, "ContributionID": 704431, "EditedText": "Funding depends on the kind of national park that we in this Parliament collectively agree on. We can speculate—SNH predicted how much particular kinds of national park would cost—but until we know what kind of park there will be, it is impossible to answer Mr Ewing's question. I want to emphasise the crucial point made by Jackie Baillie and Sylvia Jackson about balancing social and economic objectives with long-term environmental objectives. We need to get the balance right. That is the challenge and that is why establishing national parks is an exciting idea—it is an exciting issue for the Parliament to take up. We have had a lot of consultation and there is a lot of enthusiasm for a national park at Loch Lomond and the Trossachs. Our challenge is to take the debate forward and to continue to involve people in that process. I know from Linda Fabiani's comments that she has an aversion to quangos. It is important to note that the mix of people who are involved in running the national park will be crucial. Local people need to be involved—both those who run businesses and those who live in the area—as do local councillors and people at the national level. By setting up a national park, we give national priority to the issue of national parks as a whole. How we strike the right balance is one of the key matters that we need to discuss during consultation. Work is well under way to establish national parks in Scotland. The issue is one that the Parliament needs to examine and one in which we all need to be involved. There is not just one approach for the whole of Scotland; we need enabling legislation to select the appropriate models for different parts of Scotland. The partnership Government's commitment to establishing national parks in Scotland is clear and unequivocal. It was in the \"Partnership for Scotland\" agreement and is one of the key matters that we want to debate during this session.", "EditedTextHTML": "Funding depends on the kind of national park that we in this Parliament collectively agree on. We can speculate—SNH predicted how much particular kinds of national park would cost—but until we know what kind of park there will be, it is impossible to answer Mr Ewing's question.

I want to emphasise the crucial point made by Jackie Baillie and Sylvia Jackson about balancing social and economic objectives with long-term environmental objectives. We need to get the balance right. That is the challenge and that is why establishing national parks is an exciting idea—it is an exciting issue for the Parliament to take up. We have had a lot of consultation and there is a lot of enthusiasm for a national park at Loch Lomond and the Trossachs. Our challenge is to take the debate forward and to continue to involve people in that process.

I know from Linda Fabiani's comments that she has an aversion to quangos. It is important to note that the mix of people who are involved in running the national park will be crucial. Local people need to be involved—both those who run businesses and those who live in the area—as do local councillors and people at the national level. By setting up a national park, we give national priority to the issue of national parks as a whole. How we strike the right balance is one of the key matters that we need to discuss during consultation.

Work is well under way to establish national parks in Scotland. The issue is one that the Parliament needs to examine and one in which we all need to be involved. There is not just one approach for the whole of Scotland; we need enabling legislation to select the appropriate models for different parts of Scotland.

The partnership Government's commitment to establishing national parks in Scotland is clear and unequivocal. It was in the \"Partnership for Scotland\" agreement and is one of the key matters that we want to debate during this session.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-10T02:00:13.3570755+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C704272", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 166.0, "ContributionID": 704272, "EditedText": "Will Mrs Mulligan give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mrs Mulligan give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:00:59.8834011+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C704292", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Allowances", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26609, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 91.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 91.0, "ID": 26609, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 211.0, "ContributionID": 704292, "EditedText": "Will Mr McConnell give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr McConnell give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:00:59.8834011+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1783E59P270C704424", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 08 Jun 1999", "ID": 4166 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-08T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "National Park", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26611, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 411.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 411.0, "ID": 26611, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Baillie, Jackie", "ID": 1783, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumbarton" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Communities", "SpeakerName": "Jackie Baillie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 443.0, "ContributionID": 704424, "EditedText": "I support the motion in the name of Dr Sylvia Jackson. I shall declare my interest at the outset, as other members have been inclined to do. I am the directly elected member of the Dumbarton constituency, which covers the eastern part of the proposed national park for Loch Lomond and the Trossachs. It is undoubtedly an area of outstanding natural beauty, enjoyed by people from across Scotland and from across the world. Until the park authority is established as a legal entity, the interim committee is considering four key aims: to safeguard the cultural and natural heritage of the area; to promote the sustainable use of natural resources; to promote the social and economic well-being of local communities; and to provide for public enjoyment and understanding. I will focus briefly on the potential for economic development. The constituents of Dumbarton and I are clear about the need for sustainable development. We must balance the need to protect the environment with the need to create employment opportunities. There is no doubt that that will be an extremely sensitive issue, but it is clear that where we can, and where it is appropriate, we should develop job opportunities. Tourism continues to be important to the Scottish economy, contributing approximately £2.6 billion per annum and supporting 178,000 jobs. The potential to create tourism-related employment in the context of the national park is evident. We should encourage local agencies to work together to maximise the opportunities, and above all to connect people who are unemployed with those opportunities. That will provide added value to our efforts. Equally, there will be development potential in the supply chain, education services, park ranger services and general recreation, all of which should be exploited. At the same time, we must ensure that our heritage and environment are protected. I believe that the national park authority for Loch Lomond and the Trossachs is the mechanism to promote sustainable development and to protect the environment. I therefore support the motion calling for the establishment of a national park for Loch Lomond and the Trossachs, and commend it to the Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "I support the motion in the name of Dr Sylvia Jackson. I shall

declare my interest at the outset, as other members have been inclined to do. I am the directly elected member of the Dumbarton constituency, which covers the eastern part of the proposed national park for Loch Lomond and the Trossachs. It is undoubtedly an area of outstanding natural beauty, enjoyed by people from across Scotland and from across the world.

Until the park authority is established as a legal entity, the interim committee is considering four key aims: to safeguard the cultural and natural heritage of the area; to promote the sustainable use of natural resources; to promote the social and economic well-being of local communities; and to provide for public enjoyment and understanding. I will focus briefly on the potential for economic development.

The constituents of Dumbarton and I are clear about the need for sustainable development. We must balance the need to protect the environment with the need to create employment opportunities. There is no doubt that that will be an extremely sensitive issue, but it is clear that where we can, and where it is appropriate, we should develop job opportunities.

Tourism continues to be important to the Scottish economy, contributing approximately £2.6 billion per annum and supporting 178,000 jobs. The potential to create tourism-related employment in the context of the national park is evident. We should encourage local agencies to work together to maximise the opportunities, and above all to connect people who are unemployed with those opportunities. That will provide added value to our efforts. Equally, there will be development potential in the supply chain, education services, park ranger services and general recreation, all of which should be exploited.

At the same time, we must ensure that our heritage and environment are protected. I believe that the national park authority for Loch Lomond and the Trossachs is the mechanism to promote sustainable development and to protect the environment. I therefore support the motion calling for the establishment of a national park for Loch Lomond and the Trossachs, and commend it to the Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:32:49.6287351+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2180E179P471C704150", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26604, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 26604, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lochhead, Richard", "ID": 2180, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Lochhead", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Richard Lochhead: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 239.0, "ContributionID": 704150, "EditedText": "The Liberal Democrat amendment does not give the people of Scotland and Scotland fishing communities, all of whom are watching today's events closely, what they want. They do not want the MSPs, the Scottish Parliament, to acknowledge that the fishing industry is concerned about what has happened in Westminster; they want to know our views. They want a declaration from the Scottish Parliament giving our view on what has happened in Westminster; do we want it reversed or do we not? It is a black and white issue, and it is simple. There is only one amendment that makes such a declaration and that is the one lodged by the SNP. I should like to quote our esteemed First Minister elect, who in the introduction to a recent publication, \"A Guide to the Scottish Parliament\", said: \"The people of Scotland rightly have high hopes and expectations for their Parliament; they already feel a sense of ownership and of connection to it, and we must not let them down.\" If we do not support the amendment, we are not just letting down the fishing communities; we are letting down the people of Scotland. I urge all members to support it.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Liberal Democrat amendment does not give the people of Scotland and Scotland fishing communities, all of whom are watching today's events closely, what they want. They do not want the MSPs, the Scottish Parliament, to acknowledge that the fishing industry is concerned about what has happened in Westminster; they want to know our views. They want a declaration from the Scottish Parliament giving our view on what has happened in Westminster; do we want it reversed or do we not? It is a black and white issue, and it is simple. There is only one amendment that makes such a declaration and that is the one lodged by the SNP.

I should like to quote our esteemed First Minister elect, who in the introduction to a recent publication, \"A Guide to the Scottish Parliament\", said:

\"The people of Scotland rightly have high hopes and expectations for their Parliament; they already feel a sense of ownership and of connection to it, and we must not let them down.\"

If we do not support the amendment, we are not just letting down the fishing communities; we are letting down the people of Scotland. I urge all members to support it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:55.929179+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2180E179P471C704166", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26605, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 264.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 264.0, "ID": 26605, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lochhead, Richard", "ID": 2180, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Lochhead", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Richard Lochhead (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 272.0, "ContributionID": 704166, "EditedText": "On a point of order, Madam Deputy Presiding Officer. I do not think that everyone understood which question was put. Will you repeat it?", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order, Madam Deputy Presiding Officer. I do not think that everyone understood which question was put. Will you repeat it?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:55.929179+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1828E200P487C704045", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Thursday 3 June 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26602, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26602, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacDonald, Margo", "ID": 1828, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margo MacDonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Margo MacDonald (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 3.0, "ContributionID": 704045, "EditedText": "On a point of order, Mr Deputy Presiding Officer. Could you give me some advice on procedural matters? They arise out of the message from the Presiding Officer in business bulletin No 7. According to that very thoughtful message—I am not sucking up— Mr Gorrie's motion on the Holyrood Parliament site is unlikely to be taken until after the Parliamentary Bureau has met. I ask the First Minister, or the person who is sitting in his chair, for an assurance that no more public contracts will be signed until the Parliament has had the chance to see a review of the current position.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order, Mr Deputy Presiding Officer. Could you give me some advice on procedural matters? They arise out of the message from the Presiding Officer in business bulletin No 7. According to that very thoughtful message—I am not sucking up— Mr Gorrie's motion on the Holyrood Parliament site is unlikely to be taken until after the Parliamentary Bureau has met. I ask the First Minister, or the person who is sitting in his chair, for an assurance that no more public contracts will be signed until the Parliament has had the chance to see a review of the current position.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C704046", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Thursday 3 June 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26602, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26602, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 5.0, "ContributionID": 704046, "EditedText": "The Holyrood project is a responsibility of the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body. The appropriate course for the member to take is under rule 13.9 of standing orders: to lodge a question to the Presiding Officer on the matter.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Holyrood project is a responsibility of the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body. The appropriate course for the member to take is under rule 13.9 of standing orders: to lodge a question to the Presiding Officer on the matter.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C704049", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26603, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 11.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 11.0, "ID": 26603, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 12.0, "ContributionID": 704049, "EditedText": "The first item of business is a debate on the draft orders as detailed in motions S1M-28 and S1M-29 in the name of Mr Henry McLeish: That the draft Scotland Act 1998 (Cross-Border Public Authorities) (Adaptation of Functions etc.) Order 1999, which was laid before the Parliament on 26 May, be approved. That the draft Scotland Act 1998 (Border Rivers) Order 1999, which was laid before the Parliament on 26 May, be approved.", "EditedTextHTML": "The first item of business is a debate on the draft orders as detailed in motions S1M-28 and S1M-29 in the name of Mr Henry McLeish:

That the draft Scotland Act 1998 (Cross-Border Public Authorities) (Adaptation of Functions etc.) Order 1999, which was laid before the Parliament on 26 May, be approved.

That the draft Scotland Act 1998 (Border Rivers) Order 1999, which was laid before the Parliament on 26 May, be approved.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C704055", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26603, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 11.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 11.0, "ID": 26603, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 26.0, "ContributionID": 704055, "EditedText": "Yes, I will.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes, I will.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C704051", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26603, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 11.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 11.0, "ID": 26603, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning (Henry McLeish): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 17.0, "ContributionID": 704051, "EditedText": "Before going into the details of the two orders, I will try to put them into context. The white paper \"Scotland's Parliament\" of 1997 recognised, in paragraph 2.10, that there would be areas where public bodies with a UK or GB remit operate in devolved areas. It will be for the Scottish Parliament to decide whether to put in place separate Scottish bodies, but we should recognise the advantages of current arrangements that allow sharing of knowledge and expertise and greater efficiency. Section 88 of the Scotland Act provides mechanisms for cross-border public authorities to be specified. Some 65 such bodies have been identified. Section 88 provides for them. Scottish ministers will have the right to be consulted on membership and on other functions relating to such bodies, as the white paper set out. Section 88 also gives Parliament the chance to scrutinise reports of the bodies. Section 89 provides opportunities for case-bycase examination of bodies and for transferring additional functions to the Scottish ministers, or otherwise adjusting the basic position provided by section 88. That is what the present order does. It also offers an opportunity to move forward, with Westminster, to put in place suitable arrangements for cross-border public authorities that will give UK and Scottish ministers and the two Parliaments appropriate control. I would like to commend—perhaps surprisingly—the guidance notes that have been published on two of the orders, which, unlike some guides that I have read, are reasonably straightforward and put into a wider context the orders that we are discussing. The guide on cross- border authorities identifies the 30 bodies in question and goes through the type of consultation and the type of decision making that will apply to each of them. I will speak first to the draft Scotland Act 1998 (Cross-Border Public Authorities) (Adaptation of Functions etc.) Order 1999. The purpose of this order is to put in place customised arrangements for the control and accountability of certain public authorities that have been specified as cross- border public authorities. Section 88 of the Scotland Act 1998 has been used to designate a number of authorities as cross-border public authorities. They are bodies, Government departments, offices or office holders with mixed functions, in that some of their functions relate to devolved matters in Scotland and some do not. Examples include bodies such as the Forestry Commissioners, which deal with devolved matters in Scotland and England and Wales. Another example is the Scottish Committee of the Council on Tribunals which, although operating only in Scotland, deals with both reserved and devolved matters. It is worth noting that the border to which I refer, in talking about cross-border public authorities, need not be the geographical border between Scotland and England. Rather, those bodies are partly within devolved Scotland and partly not. Because of that, certain of the general provisions of the Scotland Act 1998—in particular, the provisions on the transfer of ministerial functions— could cause problems when they are applied to such bodies. As I will explain, designation of such a body as a cross-border public authority, under section 88 of the Scotland Act 1998, is designed to address those problems. The Scotland Act 1998 (Cross-Border Public Authorities) (Specification) Order 1999, which was made by Her Majesty in Council on 11 May, specifies 65 cross-border public authorities. Specification as a cross-border public authority applies what might be called the default provisions in section 88 of the Scotland Act 1998. That means—and I stress this—that the ordinary transfer of ministerial functions, under section 53 of the Scotland Act 1998, is disapplied to functions which are specifically exercisable in relation to the authority, such as powers to give directions specifically to that authority. The Scottish ministers will not, therefore, automatically acquire such functions in connection with the authority. However, ministers of the Crown must, in such cases, consult Scottish ministers before exercising certain functions in relation to the body—in particular, powers of appointment or removal of members of the authority or functions which might affect Scotland otherwise than wholly in relation to reserved matters. Requirements for reports relating to the authority to be laid before Parliament are now extended so that the reports are also to be laid before the Scottish Parliament. Section 89 of the Scotland Act 1998 goes further. It provides a wide-ranging power to make provision, by Order in Council, in relation to a cross-border public authority. The default provisions in section 88 can be adjusted by an order under section 89. The draft order that is before us today uses that power to supplement or replace the default provisions for 30 cross-border public authorities. The provision that is made for each authority is tailored to that authority, and it is not possible to describe those arrangements fully in general terms. However, the general theme of the order is to give the Scottish ministers and the Scottish Parliament greater control than is afforded by the default arrangements. That means, for example, providing for certain functions to be exercised by the Scottish ministers rather than by a minister of the Crown. For the assistance of members, we have prepared a guide to the order, which sets out the background to each of the bodies that are dealt with in the order and explains the overall effect on them of the Scotland Act 1998 and the order. That was the guide to which I referred earlier. As I said, I think that in this constitutional context the guide is a reasonable read, which is quite surprising. It may be helpful to members if I cite one example. One of the more important authorities that is dealt with in the order is the Forestry Commissioners. Forestry is a devolved matter. Decisions on forestry in Scotland will therefore be taken by the Scottish ministers and the Scottish Parliament. Nevertheless, in devolving forestry it would be a mistake to abandon structures that have served the forestry sector well for so many years. Allowing the Forestry Commission to continue to operate on a Great Britain-wide basis will ensure that Scotland, England and Wales can take advantage of access to shared knowledge and expertise, and will ensure greater efficiency in the use of resources. It is for those reasons that the Forestry Commissioners have been specified as a cross-border public authority. The devolution of policy responsibility means that the powers of the forestry ministers over forestry in Scotland will transfer to the Scottish ministers. Responsibility for financing the commission's activities in Scotland will also be transferred. The primary intention of the order is that the power of direction over the commission currently exercised by the Secretary of State for Scotland should transfer to the Scottish ministers in relation to the exercise by the commission of its functions as regards Scotland. The Scottish Parliament will also be responsible for funding forestry in Scotland. The order provides for the Scottish activities of the commission to be funded out of the Scottish consolidated fund and similarly for proceeds from the commission's activities in Scotland to be paid into the Scottish consolidated fund. The order makes sensible provision to ensure that cross-border public authorities can continue to operate after 1 July with appropriate input and control for the Scottish ministers and for the Parliament. I come now to the Scotland Act 1998 (Border Rivers) Order 1999. The border between Scotland and England crosses the Tweed and Esk rivers. Unless otherwise addressed, that would have meant that legislative responsibility for fishery matters in those rivers would have been split between this Parliament and Westminster. Most members of this Parliament would agree that that would have been a ludicrous state of affairs. Fish are obviously no respecters of national borders and it would have been bizarre to contemplate the prospect, however remote, of conservation measures being taken on one side of the border and free exploitation on the other. What section 111 of the Scotland Act 1998 therefore provides is the scope for whole-river management of the two rivers by this Parliament and by Westminster, acting by means of Orders in Council, of which this is the first. In essence, the order before us does several things. First, it allows the continuation of the status quo in management terms. In other words, the Tweed throughout its length will continue to be regarded as essentially a Scottish river, managed by the River Tweed Council. For its part, the Esk will continue to be regarded, throughout its length, as an English river and, as such, it will be regulated by the Environment Agency. Secondly, the order clarifies the powers of the Environment Agency in relation to the Esk, places an obligation on the Environment Agency to provide an annual report of its activities to this Parliament, and enhances enforcement powers. Thirdly, the order seeks to address the age-old problem of fishery rights in the Solway where the Esk tends to meander, sometimes to the north of the border that runs down the middle and sometimes to the south. In brief, the order allows Scots netsmen to fish out to the middle of the Esk from the north side and English netsmen to fish out to the middle of the river from the south side, regardless of the position of the river at the time. The proviso, of course, is that the netsmen must be properly licensed or authorised to do so. That is obviously a matter of vital importance. None of this affects the exclusive right of the good people of Annan to fish within what is known as the Annan box, bestowed on them by royal charter in the 16th century. All of this, I think, demonstrates our commitment to the principle of whole-river management for the two border rivers. At the same time, it offers proof, if proof was needed, of the democratic accountability of the process to those on either side of the border with fishery interests in the rivers. The key part of this order is to ensure that there is consistent management of both rivers, north and south of the lines that we have identified. I commend these orders to the Parliament.I move,That the draft Scotland Act 1998 (Cross-Border Public Authorities) (Adaptation of Functions etc.) Order 1999, which was laid before the Parliament on 26 May, be approved.", "EditedTextHTML": "Before going into the details of the two orders, I will try to put them into context. The white paper \"Scotland's Parliament\" of 1997 recognised, in paragraph 2.10, that there would be areas where public bodies with a UK or GB remit operate in devolved areas. It will be for the Scottish Parliament to decide whether to put in place separate Scottish bodies, but we should recognise the advantages of current arrangements that allow sharing of knowledge and expertise and greater efficiency.

Section 88 of the Scotland Act provides mechanisms for cross-border public authorities to be specified. Some 65 such bodies have been identified. Section 88 provides for them. Scottish ministers will have the right to be consulted on membership and on other functions relating to such bodies, as the white paper set out. Section 88 also gives Parliament the chance to scrutinise reports of the bodies.

Section 89 provides opportunities for case-bycase examination of bodies and for transferring additional functions to the Scottish ministers, or otherwise adjusting the basic position provided by

section 88. That is what the present order does. It also offers an opportunity to move forward, with Westminster, to put in place suitable arrangements for cross-border public authorities that will give UK and Scottish ministers and the two Parliaments appropriate control.

I would like to commend—perhaps surprisingly—the guidance notes that have been published on two of the orders, which, unlike some guides that I have read, are reasonably straightforward and put into a wider context the orders that we are discussing. The guide on cross- border authorities identifies the 30 bodies in question and goes through the type of consultation and the type of decision making that will apply to each of them.

I will speak first to the draft Scotland Act 1998 (Cross-Border Public Authorities) (Adaptation of Functions etc.) Order 1999. The purpose of this order is to put in place customised arrangements for the control and accountability of certain public authorities that have been specified as cross- border public authorities.

Section 88 of the Scotland Act 1998 has been used to designate a number of authorities as cross-border public authorities. They are bodies, Government departments, offices or office holders with mixed functions, in that some of their functions relate to devolved matters in Scotland and some do not. Examples include bodies such as the Forestry Commissioners, which deal with devolved matters in Scotland and England and Wales. Another example is the Scottish Committee of the Council on Tribunals which, although operating only in Scotland, deals with both reserved and devolved matters.

It is worth noting that the border to which I refer, in talking about cross-border public authorities, need not be the geographical border between Scotland and England. Rather, those bodies are partly within devolved Scotland and partly not. Because of that, certain of the general provisions of the Scotland Act 1998—in particular, the provisions on the transfer of ministerial functions— could cause problems when they are applied to such bodies. As I will explain, designation of such a body as a cross-border public authority, under section 88 of the Scotland Act 1998, is designed to address those problems.

The Scotland Act 1998 (Cross-Border Public Authorities) (Specification) Order 1999, which was made by Her Majesty in Council on 11 May, specifies 65 cross-border public authorities. Specification as a cross-border public authority applies what might be called the default provisions in section 88 of the Scotland Act 1998. That means—and I stress this—that the ordinary transfer of ministerial functions, under section 53 of the Scotland Act 1998, is disapplied to functions which are specifically exercisable in relation to the authority, such as powers to give directions specifically to that authority.

The Scottish ministers will not, therefore, automatically acquire such functions in connection with the authority. However, ministers of the Crown must, in such cases, consult Scottish ministers before exercising certain functions in relation to the body—in particular, powers of appointment or removal of members of the authority or functions which might affect Scotland otherwise than wholly in relation to reserved matters. Requirements for reports relating to the authority to be laid before Parliament are now extended so that the reports are also to be laid before the Scottish Parliament.

Section 89 of the Scotland Act 1998 goes further. It provides a wide-ranging power to make provision, by Order in Council, in relation to a cross-border public authority. The default provisions in section 88 can be adjusted by an order under section 89. The draft order that is before us today uses that power to supplement or replace the default provisions for 30 cross-border public authorities. The provision that is made for each authority is tailored to that authority, and it is not possible to describe those arrangements fully in general terms. However, the general theme of the order is to give the Scottish ministers and the Scottish Parliament greater control than is afforded by the default arrangements. That means, for example, providing for certain functions to be exercised by the Scottish ministers rather than by a minister of the Crown.

For the assistance of members, we have prepared a guide to the order, which sets out the background to each of the bodies that are dealt with in the order and explains the overall effect on them of the Scotland Act 1998 and the order. That was the guide to which I referred earlier. As I said, I think that in this constitutional context the guide is a reasonable read, which is quite surprising.

It may be helpful to members if I cite one example. One of the more important authorities that is dealt with in the order is the Forestry Commissioners. Forestry is a devolved matter. Decisions on forestry in Scotland will therefore be taken by the Scottish ministers and the Scottish Parliament. Nevertheless, in devolving forestry it would be a mistake to abandon structures that have served the forestry sector well for so many years. Allowing the Forestry Commission to continue to operate on a Great Britain-wide basis will ensure that Scotland, England and Wales can take advantage of access to shared knowledge and expertise, and will ensure greater efficiency in the use of resources. It is for those reasons that the Forestry Commissioners have been specified as a cross-border public authority. The devolution

of policy responsibility means that the powers of the forestry ministers over forestry in Scotland will transfer to the Scottish ministers. Responsibility for financing the commission's activities in Scotland will also be transferred.

The primary intention of the order is that the power of direction over the commission currently exercised by the Secretary of State for Scotland should transfer to the Scottish ministers in relation to the exercise by the commission of its functions as regards Scotland. The Scottish Parliament will also be responsible for funding forestry in Scotland. The order provides for the Scottish activities of the commission to be funded out of the Scottish consolidated fund and similarly for proceeds from the commission's activities in Scotland to be paid into the Scottish consolidated fund.

The order makes sensible provision to ensure that cross-border public authorities can continue to operate after 1 July with appropriate input and control for the Scottish ministers and for the Parliament.

I come now to the Scotland Act 1998 (Border Rivers) Order 1999.

The border between Scotland and England crosses the Tweed and Esk rivers. Unless otherwise addressed, that would have meant that legislative responsibility for fishery matters in those rivers would have been split between this Parliament and Westminster. Most members of this Parliament would agree that that would have been a ludicrous state of affairs. Fish are obviously no respecters of national borders and it would have been bizarre to contemplate the prospect, however remote, of conservation measures being taken on one side of the border and free exploitation on the other.

What section 111 of the Scotland Act 1998 therefore provides is the scope for whole-river management of the two rivers by this Parliament and by Westminster, acting by means of Orders in Council, of which this is the first.

In essence, the order before us does several things. First, it allows the continuation of the status quo in management terms. In other words, the Tweed throughout its length will continue to be regarded as essentially a Scottish river, managed by the River Tweed Council. For its part, the Esk will continue to be regarded, throughout its length, as an English river and, as such, it will be regulated by the Environment Agency.

Secondly, the order clarifies the powers of the Environment Agency in relation to the Esk, places an obligation on the Environment Agency to provide an annual report of its activities to this Parliament, and enhances enforcement powers.

Thirdly, the order seeks to address the age-old problem of fishery rights in the Solway where the Esk tends to meander, sometimes to the north of the border that runs down the middle and sometimes to the south. In brief, the order allows Scots netsmen to fish out to the middle of the Esk from the north side and English netsmen to fish out to the middle of the river from the south side, regardless of the position of the river at the time. The proviso, of course, is that the netsmen must be properly licensed or authorised to do so. That is obviously a matter of vital importance. None of this affects the exclusive right of the good people of Annan to fish within what is known as the Annan box, bestowed on them by royal charter in the 16th century.

All of this, I think, demonstrates our commitment to the principle of whole-river management for the two border rivers. At the same time, it offers proof, if proof was needed, of the democratic accountability of the process to those on either side of the border with fishery interests in the rivers. The key part of this order is to ensure that there is consistent management of both rivers, north and south of the lines that we have identified.

I commend these orders to the Parliament.

I move,

That the draft Scotland Act 1998 (Cross-Border Public Authorities) (Adaptation of Functions etc.) Order 1999, which was laid before the Parliament on 26 May, be approved.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C704052", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26603, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 11.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 11.0, "ID": 26603, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 19.0, "ContributionID": 704052, "EditedText": "It would be helpful if members who want to participate in the debate could indicate their intention to speak by pressing the white button on their consoles.", "EditedTextHTML": "It would be helpful if members who want to participate in the debate could indicate their intention to speak by pressing the white button on their consoles.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C704057", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26603, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 11.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 11.0, "ID": 26603, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 30.0, "ContributionID": 704057, "EditedText": "I will accept Johann Lamont's definition of the new politics as being where we have consensus and we work together. The basis of consensus is, of course, consultation. The issue that we were debating yesterday was that there was no consultation. I had the advantage of seeing Mr McAllion's performance from the front, whereas Ms Lamont had the disadvantage of seeing it from the back. It was not only the words, but the spirit of what he said that was the problem. The general welcome that I give to the orders does not exclude detailed scrutiny of them. This order has notable omissions. I yield to no one in my enthusiasm and support for the controller of plant variety rights. I have no doubt—and I speak as someone who once worked for the Scottish Bedding Plants Association—that the work of the plant varieties and seeds tribunal is extremely important, but I would have thought that there were other bodies that required consideration because they work in reserved areas across both Parliaments and meet the definition given in the white paper of being bodies operating in reserved areas in relation to their activities in or affecting Scotland. It is interesting to note that the white paper— published, it seems, so long ago now—listed a number of other bodies that have not made it into the order. Those bodies include the energy regulators; the Office of Passenger Rail Franchising; the Health and Safety Commission; the Commission for Racial Equality, which wanted to be considered in this way; the Employment Service; the Benefits Agency; the Post Office and broadcasting and telecommunications organisations such as the BBC and the Independent Television Commission. For schedule 1 to the order to omit those bodies is to produce a piece of legislation that is seriously defective. Those bodies affect the everyday life of everyone in Scotland. All the people whom we represent are touched every day by the activities of those bodies. The Parliament and its committees will have the opportunity to invite representations from all those bodies. The controller of plant varieties can come and talk to us, but it is a deficiency of the order that he cannot be required to come and give evidence and tell us the truth of what is happening. I am sure that an invitation from Mr Dewar or Mr McLeish or even Mr McConnell is not something to be treated lightly, but it would be much more important if the Parliament and its committees could say, \"We require you to attend\" and, \"We require you to give information on what is happening.\" I will confine my comments to broadcasting. It was clear from last year's debate on the Scottish Six that it would be vitally important for the Parliament to question those making the decisions. Some of the people in this chamber were present at the BBC governors' dinner, which was held in Glasgow at the end of the governors' meeting last year. That was a remarkable event. Those who were invited were soft-soaped with warm words by a hard-faced group of people who had already made up their minds about what was going to happen. No amount of debate or discussion would make any difference. What actually happened was that there was no real consultation. The Broadcasting Council for Scotland made its views known, and was ignored. The political parties in Scotland made their views known, and were ignored, as were the listeners and viewers organisations. Virtually the whole of civic Scotland argued for some change in the way that the BBC treated Scotland. What they got was a typical BBC fudge—the offering of something that is referred to north and south of the border as \"Newsnet\". It is an appalling way to treat audiences in Scotland, because it removes that programme of great quality, \"Newsnight\". It denies part of that programme to the Scottish audience while substituting something else. That is an unacceptable compromise, and it is not I who says it, but the broadcasters who work on those programmes. The committee of this Parliament that is responsible for broadcasting should be able to call the chairman of BBC Scotland, or the director general of the BBC, or any of those responsible for similar decisions and to scrutinise the decisions as they are made. The failure to give this Parliament the power to demand attendance is a major weakness of this order. That applies right across the spectrum. I am glad that many of the Liberal Democrats agree that the Parliament should have this basic right. It also applies to the ITC. Some members are concerned that the honouring of licences in certain places in Scotland has not come up to public expectation. In such circumstances it would be vital to demand the attendance of officials from the ITC to examine them on the issue. That is a major defect in the order, and it applies not just to broadcasting, but to all the bodies that are mentioned in it. I hope that serious consideration will be given to strengthening the powers of the Parliament and the powers of the committee so that this Parliament can ask real questions. The Scottish National party has considered the orders and, as yesterday, we will support them because we wish to move the process forward, and because it would be unreasonable not to do so. That does not mean that we do not regard parts of the orders as not effective enough. Mr McLeish is nodding his head. I hope that consideration will be given to some of these issues, both in terms of the bodies that touch our lives but which are not in the order and in terms of ensuring that this Parliament can be an effective voice for the people of Scotland. I hope that it will not be a Parliament that receives the odd annual report or letter from the director general, but one which can ask him what is going on, and ensure that he understands the strength of opinion and passion in Scotland for the Parliament to work.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will accept Johann Lamont's definition of the new politics as being where we have consensus and we work together. The basis of consensus is, of course, consultation. The issue that we were debating yesterday was that there was no consultation. I had the advantage of seeing Mr McAllion's performance from the front, whereas Ms Lamont had the disadvantage of seeing it from the back. It was not only the words, but the spirit of what he said that was the problem.

The general welcome that I give to the orders does not exclude detailed scrutiny of them. This order has notable omissions. I yield to no one in my enthusiasm and support for the controller of plant variety rights. I have no doubt—and I speak as someone who once worked for the Scottish Bedding Plants Association—that the work of the plant varieties and seeds tribunal is extremely important, but I would have thought that there were other bodies that required consideration because they work in reserved areas across both Parliaments and meet the definition given in the white paper of being bodies operating in reserved areas in relation to their activities in or affecting Scotland.

It is interesting to note that the white paper— published, it seems, so long ago now—listed a number of other bodies that have not made it into the order. Those bodies include the energy regulators; the Office of Passenger Rail Franchising; the Health and Safety Commission; the Commission for Racial Equality, which wanted to be considered in this way; the Employment Service; the Benefits Agency; the Post Office and broadcasting and telecommunications organisations such as the BBC and the Independent Television Commission.

For schedule 1 to the order to omit those bodies is to produce a piece of legislation that is seriously defective. Those bodies affect the everyday life of everyone in Scotland. All the people whom we represent are touched every day by the activities of those bodies.

The Parliament and its committees will have the opportunity to invite representations from all those bodies. The controller of plant varieties can come and talk to us, but it is a deficiency of the order that he cannot be required to come and give evidence and tell us the truth of what is happening. I am sure that an invitation from Mr Dewar or Mr McLeish or even Mr McConnell is not something to be treated lightly, but it would be much more important if the Parliament and its committees could say, \"We require you to attend\" and, \"We require you to give information on what is happening.\"

I will confine my comments to broadcasting. It was clear from last year's debate on the Scottish Six that it would be vitally important for the Parliament to question those making the decisions. Some of the people in this chamber were present at the BBC governors' dinner, which was held in Glasgow at the end of the governors' meeting last year. That was a remarkable event. Those who were invited were soft-soaped with warm words by a hard-faced group of people who had already made up their minds about what was going to happen. No amount of debate or discussion would make any difference. What actually happened was that there was no real consultation. The Broadcasting Council for Scotland made its views known, and was ignored. The political parties in Scotland made their views known, and were ignored, as were the listeners and viewers organisations.

Virtually the whole of civic Scotland argued for some change in the way that the BBC treated Scotland. What they got was a typical BBC fudge—the offering of something that is referred to north and south of the border as \"Newsnet\". It is an appalling way to treat audiences in Scotland, because it removes that programme of great quality, \"Newsnight\". It denies part of that programme to the Scottish audience while substituting something else. That is an unacceptable compromise, and it is not I who says it, but the broadcasters who work on those programmes. The committee of this Parliament that is responsible for broadcasting should be able to call the chairman of BBC Scotland, or the director general of the BBC, or any of those responsible for similar decisions and to scrutinise the decisions as they are made.

The failure to give this Parliament the power to demand attendance is a major weakness of this order. That applies right across the spectrum. I am glad that many of the Liberal Democrats agree that the Parliament should have this basic right. It also applies to the ITC. Some members are concerned that the honouring of licences in certain places in Scotland has not come up to public expectation. In such circumstances it would be vital to demand the attendance of officials from the ITC to examine them on the issue. That is a major

defect in the order, and it applies not just to broadcasting, but to all the bodies that are mentioned in it. I hope that serious consideration will be given to strengthening the powers of the Parliament and the powers of the committee so that this Parliament can ask real questions.

The Scottish National party has considered the orders and, as yesterday, we will support them because we wish to move the process forward, and because it would be unreasonable not to do so. That does not mean that we do not regard parts of the orders as not effective enough. Mr McLeish is nodding his head. I hope that consideration will be given to some of these issues, both in terms of the bodies that touch our lives but which are not in the order and in terms of ensuring that this Parliament can be an effective voice for the people of Scotland. I hope that it will not be a Parliament that receives the odd annual report or letter from the director general, but one which can ask him what is going on, and ensure that he understands the strength of opinion and passion in Scotland for the Parliament to work.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C704083", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26604, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 26604, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan (Falkirk West): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 91.0, "ContributionID": 704083, "EditedText": "This morning, on the radio, I heard a spokesperson for the Scottish fishing industry put forward the scenario of a collision between a fishing vessel and a North sea oil industry vessel in the North sea. His point was that the line of jurisdiction now seems to be different for the oil industry from that for the fishing industry. Which courts—English or Scottish— would be responsible for dealing with such a matter under criminal or civil law?", "EditedTextHTML": "This morning, on the radio, I heard a spokesperson for the Scottish fishing industry put forward the scenario of a collision between a fishing vessel and a North sea oil industry vessel in the North sea. His point was that the line of jurisdiction now seems to be

different for the oil industry from that for the fishing industry. Which courts—English or Scottish— would be responsible for dealing with such a matter under criminal or civil law?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C704089", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26604, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 26604, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ross Finnie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 103.0, "ContributionID": 704089, "EditedText": "It is not a matter for them, because, as Mrs Ewing knows, the jurisdiction—in schedule 5 and section 126 of the Scotland Act 1998—deals explicitly with fisheries. Accidents are covered by existing legislation.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is not a matter for them, because, as Mrs Ewing knows, the jurisdiction—in schedule 5 and section 126 of the Scotland Act 1998—deals explicitly with fisheries. Accidents are covered by existing legislation.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C704063", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26603, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 11.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 11.0, "ID": 26603, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 47.0, "ContributionID": 704063, "EditedText": "How much?", "EditedTextHTML": "How much?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C704068", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26603, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 11.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 11.0, "ID": 26603, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 59.0, "ContributionID": 704068, "EditedText": "As no other members have indicated that they wish to speak, I will ask Mr McLeish to wind up. Afterwards, I will entertain a motion for early closure of this debate, which will allow us to move on to the debate on the Scottish adjacent waters boundaries.", "EditedTextHTML": "As no other members have indicated that they wish to speak, I will ask Mr McLeish to wind up. Afterwards, I will entertain a motion for early closure of this debate, which will allow us to move on to the debate on the Scottish adjacent waters boundaries.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C704069", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26603, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 11.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 11.0, "ID": 26603, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 62.0, "ContributionID": 704069, "EditedText": "I was concerned, Mr Deputy Presiding Officer, that you would announce that I should rise and respond to this debate—alas, I will. I will take Donald Gorrie's points first. Schedule 20 to the Scotland Act 1998 (Cross-Border Public Authorities) (Adaptation of Functions etc.) Order 1999 is not confused, because the purpose of the order is to try to clarify whether it should be the UK or Scottish ministers who deal with particular appointments. I hope that he will accept that reassurance. Schedule 9 to the order refers to the Lord Chancellor because he is the responsible member of the Westminster Government who deals with the matter concerned. It is nothing more sinister than that. Donald Gorrie also asked to which secretary of state the schedules referred. I realised only about three years ago that, in any piece of Westminster legislation, there was seldom a specific reference to the Secretary of State for Defence, or to the Secretary of State for Scotland and so on. The only reference is to \"secretary of state\"—that is the terminology used. In this case, depending on what the schedule was, it would reflect the appropriate minister. The references are not to the Secretary of State for Scotland. I have dispensed with the easier parts of my response. I will take Michael Russell's comments next, because, in a sense, if we were here to talk about a settlement for a separate, independent Scotland, there would be some validity to the points that he made, and I say that to the SNP in a constructive sense. Michael Russell knows full well that in the \"Scotland's Parliament\" white paper—which was published in 1997 and which was the subject of a very successful referendum of the Scottish people—we were absolutely clear about cross- border public authorities and indeed about the bodies to which he referred, such as the energy regulators, the Office of Passenger Rail Franchising and the Health and Safety Commission. In the white paper, we said: \"In certain reserved areas, the activities of other UK/GB bodies which are accountable to the UK Parliament will continue to be significant in the economic or social life of Scotland, and therefore likely to be of interest to the Scottish Parliament.\" However, those are reserved matters. I think that Michael Russell knows that there will be an opportunity for Scottish ministers to become involved in appointments to the bodies that we have just described and to other bodies. There will also be an opportunity for reports of those organisations to be lodged in this Parliament. We can make a distinction between a demand and an invitation, but I suspect that many of those bodies will accept an invitation from this Parliament to meet a committee or the Parliament. One of the things that we tend to forget about devolution is that, whether the matter is reserved or devolved, this is a very powerful Parliament. The Parliament will be listened to if it discusses issues that touch on reserved matters. As for the specific bodies that Michael Russell mentioned, we have faithfully delivered on the white paper commitments. His comments would have been more valid if there had been another type of settlement, and I suggest that he knows full well the position regarding those bodies. As for the Equal Opportunities Commission, the Independent Television Commission and the Radio Authority, the orders debated yesterday give Scottish ministers involvement in appointments to those bodies. Those bodies are of interest to Scotland, and the Parliament could consider issues that pertain to them, which backs up my point about the Parliament's involvement in wider issues. The Equal Opportunities Commission, the ITC and the Radio Authority are not cross-border public authorities, but operate in reserved areas. I should stress that, as part of the devolution settlement, we have substantial devolved powers and substantial executive devolution, and the Parliament has a role in matters wholly reserved to Westminster. That role has been detailed not only in the white paper, but in every step along the way to the current situation of the Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "I was concerned, Mr Deputy Presiding Officer, that you would announce that I should rise and respond to this debate—alas, I will.

I will take Donald Gorrie's points first. Schedule 20 to the Scotland Act 1998 (Cross-Border Public Authorities) (Adaptation of Functions etc.) Order 1999 is not confused, because the purpose of the order is to try to clarify whether it should be the UK or Scottish ministers who deal with particular appointments. I hope that he will accept that reassurance.

Schedule 9 to the order refers to the Lord Chancellor because he is the responsible member of the Westminster Government who deals with the matter concerned. It is nothing more sinister than that.

Donald Gorrie also asked to which secretary of state the schedules referred. I realised only about three years ago that, in any piece of Westminster legislation, there was seldom a specific reference to the Secretary of State for Defence, or to the Secretary of State for Scotland and so on. The only reference is to \"secretary of state\"—that is the terminology used. In this case, depending on what the schedule was, it would reflect the appropriate minister. The references are not to the Secretary of State for Scotland.

I have dispensed with the easier parts of my response. I will take Michael Russell's comments next, because, in a sense, if we were here to talk about a settlement for a separate, independent Scotland, there would be some validity to the points that he made, and I say that to the SNP in a constructive sense.

Michael Russell knows full well that in the \"Scotland's Parliament\" white paper—which was published in 1997 and which was the subject of a very successful referendum of the Scottish people—we were absolutely clear about cross- border public authorities and indeed about the bodies to which he referred, such as the energy regulators, the Office of Passenger Rail Franchising and the Health and Safety Commission. In the white paper, we said:

\"In certain reserved areas, the activities of other UK/GB bodies which are accountable to the UK Parliament will continue to be significant in the economic or social life of Scotland, and therefore likely to be of interest to the Scottish Parliament.\"

However, those are reserved matters. I think that Michael Russell knows that there will be an opportunity for Scottish ministers to become involved in appointments to the bodies that we have just described and to other bodies. There will also be an opportunity for reports of those organisations to be lodged in this Parliament. We can make a distinction between a demand and an invitation, but I suspect that many of those bodies will accept an invitation from this Parliament to meet a committee or the Parliament.

One of the things that we tend to forget about devolution is that, whether the matter is reserved or devolved, this is a very powerful Parliament. The Parliament will be listened to if it discusses issues that touch on reserved matters. As for the specific bodies that Michael Russell mentioned, we have faithfully delivered on the white paper commitments. His comments would have been more valid if there had been another type of settlement, and I suggest that he knows full well the position regarding those bodies.

As for the Equal Opportunities Commission, the Independent Television Commission and the Radio Authority, the orders debated yesterday give Scottish ministers involvement in appointments to those bodies. Those bodies are of interest to Scotland, and the Parliament could consider issues that pertain to them, which backs up my point about the Parliament's involvement in wider issues.

The Equal Opportunities Commission, the ITC and the Radio Authority are not cross-border public authorities, but operate in reserved areas. I should stress that, as part of the devolution settlement, we have substantial devolved powers and substantial executive devolution, and the Parliament has a role in matters wholly reserved to Westminster. That role has been detailed not only in the white paper, but in every step along the way to the current situation of the Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C704071", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26603, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 11.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 11.0, "ID": 26603, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 66.0, "ContributionID": 704071, "EditedText": "Alex Salmond makes a reasonable point, because what is important in the orders that I outlined yesterday and in today's orders is that this is an evolving process. He is right to say that there has been a debate on racial equality. It is a very important and sensitive issue, and more debate will ensue. However, that matter is not covered in this order; but I should like to think that the Parliament would investigate it. That should be done with MPs at Westminster and with Westminster. However, I want to put it on record that racial equality is a very important issue, and I do not want to detract from Alex Salmond's constructive comments. Michael Russell also made the point about how we define the new politics. Perhaps a common definition would be a constructive tone in the chamber; concentration on some of the big policy issues on which we campaigned in the election; and a mutual respect for comments made on every side of the chamber. If we achieve that in the first few weeks, people here and the wider public will respect that. That comment is aimed at everyone—I am not singling out any one party— but if we could meet that definition of the new politics, we would be paying tribute to the fact that we have a Parliament. The Scottish people would want us to act in such a way. Phil Gallie identified a number of schedules. The schedules go into detail on how the responsibilities are split up and who takes decisions. He should read the schedules in detail, but if any of his specific concerns are still unanswered, he should not hesitate to ask me. I should be happy to fill him in on points that are germane to all of them. Phil Gallie referred to the police. In a sense, none of the orders that we are discussing today affects the debate in Scotland about the future of the police forces. We have established a review to consider the police force structure, but no decisions have been made on that matter and there is no hidden agenda as to what the outcome might be. We are involving all the parties, and the guiding principle is that we are committed to the best policing. That will be the guiding criterion and not whether there are two, three, four, five, six, seven or eight forces. We gave a cast-iron reassurance that it will be a proper debate, and this Parliament, as well as the new Executive, can engage in it. I hope that Mr Gallie accepts that assurance, which is unaltered by anything that is being discussed today.", "EditedTextHTML": "Alex Salmond makes a reasonable point, because what is important in the orders that I outlined yesterday and in today's orders is that this is an evolving process. He is right to say that there has been a debate on racial equality. It is a very important and sensitive issue,

and more debate will ensue. However, that matter is not covered in this order; but I should like to think that the Parliament would investigate it. That should be done with MPs at Westminster and with Westminster. However, I want to put it on record that racial equality is a very important issue, and I do not want to detract from Alex Salmond's constructive comments.

Michael Russell also made the point about how we define the new politics. Perhaps a common definition would be a constructive tone in the chamber; concentration on some of the big policy issues on which we campaigned in the election; and a mutual respect for comments made on every side of the chamber. If we achieve that in the first few weeks, people here and the wider public will respect that. That comment is aimed at everyone—I am not singling out any one party— but if we could meet that definition of the new politics, we would be paying tribute to the fact that we have a Parliament. The Scottish people would want us to act in such a way.

Phil Gallie identified a number of schedules. The schedules go into detail on how the responsibilities are split up and who takes decisions. He should read the schedules in detail, but if any of his specific concerns are still unanswered, he should not hesitate to ask me. I should be happy to fill him in on points that are germane to all of them.

Phil Gallie referred to the police. In a sense, none of the orders that we are discussing today affects the debate in Scotland about the future of the police forces. We have established a review to consider the police force structure, but no decisions have been made on that matter and there is no hidden agenda as to what the outcome might be. We are involving all the parties, and the guiding principle is that we are committed to the best policing. That will be the guiding criterion and not whether there are two, three, four, five, six, seven or eight forces. We gave a cast-iron reassurance that it will be a proper debate, and this Parliament, as well as the new Executive, can engage in it. I hope that Mr Gallie accepts that assurance, which is unaltered by anything that is being discussed today.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2056E57P84C704075", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26603, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 11.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 11.0, "ID": 26603, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James", "ID": 2056, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "James Douglas-Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Lord James Douglas-Hamilton (Lothians) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 74.0, "ContributionID": 704075, "EditedText": "I move under rule 8.14, That the debate be now closed.", "EditedTextHTML": "I move under rule 8.14,

That the debate be now closed.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C704095", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26604, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 26604, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ross Finnie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 115.0, "ContributionID": 704095, "EditedText": "It is exactly the same, wherever it happens. The situation is unchanged.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is exactly the same, wherever it happens. The situation is unchanged.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C704097", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26604, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 26604, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ross Finnie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 119.0, "ContributionID": 704097, "EditedText": "No, I have dealt with that point.The situation is clear. In relation to fisheries and the exclusion jurisdiction of this Parliament, the lines are defined as in the order. That is the power that is being passed to this Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I have dealt with that point.

The situation is clear. In relation to fisheries and the exclusion jurisdiction of this Parliament, the lines are defined as in the order. That is the power that is being passed to this Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C704108", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26604, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 26604, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 142.0, "ContributionID": 704108, "EditedText": "I call Mr Euan Robson to speak to amendment S1M-19.3 and to move it formally.", "EditedTextHTML": "I call Mr Euan Robson to speak to amendment S1M-19.3 and to move it formally.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C704114", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26604, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 26604, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 155.0, "ContributionID": 704114, "EditedText": "I know—that is why I am asking now. The points that Mr Robson has made have been valid, constructive and helpful. Before he concludes his remarks, could he explain his and his colleagues' road to Damascus conversion, which led to the withdrawal of the amendment that Mr Lochhead moved and the substitution of the amendment to which Mr Robson is now speaking?", "EditedTextHTML": "I know—that is why I am asking now.

The points that Mr Robson has made have been valid, constructive and helpful. Before he concludes his remarks, could he explain his and his colleagues' road to Damascus conversion, which led to the withdrawal of the amendment that Mr Lochhead moved and the substitution of the amendment to which Mr Robson is now speaking?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7484974+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1990E181P340C704115", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26604, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 26604, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robson, Euan", "ID": 1990, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Roxburgh and Berwickshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Euan Robson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Euan Robson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 157.0, "ContributionID": 704115, "EditedText": "I am happy to explain. To use fishing terms, we have perhaps exceeded our quota of motions and amendments during this debate. We have moved on. We have obtained some assurances from Mr Finnie and the case that he will take to UK ministers on behalf of the fishermen offers a practical way forward. I must make it clear to David McLetchie that I do not dissent from Richard Lochhead's motion, which was originally mine—I remember writing those words. I believe that the boundary should be drawn as it suggests. Perhaps that has clarified the position for David McLetchie. I move, to insert at the end of the motion\"and the Scottish fishing organisations have considerable concerns about the said Order; and calls upon the relevant Minister to (a) meet representatives of the Scottish fishing industry to discuss their concern and in particular their desire to re-establish the custom and practice of former years in regard to the east coast boundary and (b) convey such concerns to the Secretary of State for Scotland.\"", "EditedTextHTML": "I am happy to explain. To use fishing terms, we have perhaps exceeded our quota of motions and amendments during this debate.

We have moved on. We have obtained some assurances from Mr Finnie and the case that he will take to UK ministers on behalf of the fishermen offers a practical way forward. I must make it clear to David McLetchie that I do not dissent from Richard Lochhead's motion, which was originally mine—I remember writing those words. I believe that the boundary should be drawn as it suggests. Perhaps that has clarified the position for David McLetchie.

I move, to insert at the end of the motion

\"and the Scottish fishing organisations have considerable concerns about the said Order; and calls upon the relevant Minister to (a) meet representatives of the Scottish fishing industry to discuss their concern and in particular their desire to re-establish the custom and practice of former years in regard to the east coast boundary and (b) convey such concerns to the Secretary of State for Scotland.\"

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7484974+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C704118", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26604, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 26604, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Jim Wallace (Orkney) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 164.0, "ContributionID": 704118, "EditedText": "December.", "EditedTextHTML": "December.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7484974+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C704119", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26604, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 26604, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 166.0, "ContributionID": 704119, "EditedText": "Yes, December, which is when the annual fishing debate that we are allowed to have in Westminster takes place. First, seeing a full chamber today is very welcome. That is a departure from the Westminster practice. Secondly, it is good that this Parliament has been able to respond to an issue of current concern in the industry, as opposed to pigeon-holing it into an annual debate some months after the event. I would, however, have preferred the Parliamentary Bureau to have decided to take the motion as it originally stood in the business list, rather than the watered-down Executive version. This is a good start in terms of the Parliament responding to the industry's concerns, but it would rather cloud things over if we did not follow through those concerns and make a firm declaration today on behalf of the people in the fishing industry, whom many of us represent. The fishing industry wants to be regarded not as a few thousand fishermen or a matter for a few coastal constituencies, but as a major industry of Scotland that employs 20,000 people plus in terms of its total economic effect in our country. The onshore and offshore fishing industry is 15 times more important to the Scottish economy than it is to the United Kingdom economy and it wants that level of importance to be reflected in our debates and proceedings. That has not happened at Westminster and it most certainly did not happen in the debate in the Third Standing Committee on Delegated Legislation on 23 March. I have read through the report of the debate and the kindest thing I can say about Mr McLeish's speech as the minister who introduced the order is that he was reading his brief. As soon as he was asked questions about it he sailed into trouble. He had the honesty to say: \"I realise that the order is just a mass of co-ordinates and that the boundary may be less specific than possible in relation to the size of the map\". In other words, the map provided for the members of the committee was too small for them to recognise where the boundary was about to be drawn. That was reflected in the debate. Mr Russell Brown, the member for Dumfries, was honest and disarming enough to say: \"When I picked up a copy of the order and looked at the co-ordinates . . . I was totally confused by some of it.\"— Official Report, House of Commons, Third Standing Committee on Delegated Legislation, 23 March 1999; c 4,11. The nature of the debate in the committee did not reflect the seriousness of the subject or give due attention to it. Everyone who reads the account of that standing committee meeting will recognise that a blunder was made in terms of the scrutiny it should have given Mr McLeish's proposal. I do not think that we should compound that felony today or try to cover up for the mistakes that were made at Westminster. We should make a clear parliamentary declaration to do something about it. Mr Finnie has tried to give the impression that none of this really matters. Some of the questions he was asked, particularly the one from Mr Canavan, indicated that it might well matter. Mr Robson's contribution indicated why it might well matter. It is not enough to wave it away and say that we will work out later whose jurisdiction any offences that take place might come under. An offence could take place tomorrow in that 6,000 square miles of Scottish water and the de minimis position is that somebody who is accused of an offence should at least know in which court they are going to have to defend themselves. I represent the biggest fishing constituency in Scotland; my colleague Margaret Ewing represents the second biggest; and Mr Wallace represents a major fishing constituency, although in the Scottish Parliament he represents less than half of the fishing interests that he represents at Westminster. Some of our constituents are occasionally accused of infringements—these things happen from time to time. Many succeed in proving their case in court. There are some solicitors in Scotland who are well versed in fishing law and who often succeed in proving our constituents innocent, and justice takes its course. It would be very difficult for my constituents and those of other members if they had to defend themselves in an English court—there would be substantial expense, inconvenience and uncertainty, but the minister seems prepared to tolerate that. I think we should give short shrift to that this afternoon. There is a further matter of importance, beyond the immediate issue of legal jurisdiction, that lies in the nature of fisheries policy. Not too many members will be well versed in this matter, but I will take a minute to explain why it could be of substantial, practical importance. It is simply not true, as the Executive claims in its motion, that the order will in no way restrict the freedom of Scottish fishermen in terms of the common fisheries policy. That policy is itself in a process of evolution. Many good ideas have emerged in the debates on fishing policy over the past few years. One, which came from the industry, was to ban discards— small dead fish thrown over the side of the boat— which is a waste and an obscenity in conservation terms. The Scottish industry has been strongly in favour of an absolute ban on discards and argues that all fish caught should be landed so that they can be properly assessed. That is an attractive policy and it may well be an option that this Parliament will want to consider. As things stand, we could legislate for that option with effect on Scottish boats anywhere, but we could not legislate for other boats that are fishing in Scottish waters. Nothing undermines conservation policy in the fishing industry more than the feeling that regulations can be imposed on our fishermen but not on other boats that are fishing in our waters. The common fisheries policy is moving towards coastal state management—zonal management. That is how the policy has evolved and it has great support throughout the community. The 6,000 square miles form a significant fishing ground that we do not want to slip out of Scottish jurisdiction and policy measures that we might want to impose. Mr Finnie should think very carefully before he says that the order is not relevant to practical fishing concerns. It is also untrue that there are no lines of jurisdiction at present. The Continental Shelf (Jurisdiction) Order (UK) 1968 set a legal boundary for the purpose of prosecution concerning oil rigs and platforms. As far as the fishing interest is concerned, there is a custom and practice line, as Mr Robson's excellent speech exemplified. Probably the worst aspect of all this is that the practice that was followed in that Westminster committee did not follow international legal precedents. The opinion that my colleague Mr Richard Lochhead quoted from Dr Iain Scobbie— who is an acknowledged expert in such areas— makes that very clear. Dr Scobbie said: \"Equidistance is an accepted method in opposite delimitations, but not in those involving lateral adjacency.\" In other words, if the boundary were between Scotland and Norway it would be correct to use the method of equidistance, but between states that are in lateral adjacency that method is not the common practice under international law. Dr Scobbie stated that two thirds of the cases under international law have not been settled using the method of equidistance. What prevails in those cases tends to be custom and practice.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes, December, which is when the annual fishing debate that we are allowed to have in Westminster takes place. First, seeing a full chamber today is very welcome. That is a departure from the Westminster practice. Secondly, it is good that this Parliament has been able to respond to an issue of current concern in the industry, as opposed to pigeon-holing it into an annual debate some months after the event. I would, however, have preferred the Parliamentary Bureau to have decided to take the motion as it originally stood in the business list, rather than the watered-down Executive version.

This is a good start in terms of the Parliament responding to the industry's concerns, but it would rather cloud things over if we did not follow through those concerns and make a firm

declaration today on behalf of the people in the fishing industry, whom many of us represent.

The fishing industry wants to be regarded not as a few thousand fishermen or a matter for a few coastal constituencies, but as a major industry of Scotland that employs 20,000 people plus in terms of its total economic effect in our country.

The onshore and offshore fishing industry is 15 times more important to the Scottish economy than it is to the United Kingdom economy and it wants that level of importance to be reflected in our debates and proceedings. That has not happened at Westminster and it most certainly did not happen in the debate in the Third Standing Committee on Delegated Legislation on 23 March. I have read through the report of the debate and the kindest thing I can say about Mr McLeish's speech as the minister who introduced the order is that he was reading his brief. As soon as he was asked questions about it he sailed into trouble. He had the honesty to say:

\"I realise that the order is just a mass of co-ordinates and that the boundary may be less specific than possible in relation to the size of the map\".

In other words, the map provided for the members of the committee was too small for them to recognise where the boundary was about to be drawn. That was reflected in the debate. Mr Russell Brown, the member for Dumfries, was honest and disarming enough to say:

\"When I picked up a copy of the order and looked at the co-ordinates . . . I was totally confused by some of it.\"— [Official Report, House of Commons, Third Standing Committee on Delegated Legislation, 23 March 1999; c 4,11.]

The nature of the debate in the committee did not reflect the seriousness of the subject or give due attention to it. Everyone who reads the account of that standing committee meeting will recognise that a blunder was made in terms of the scrutiny it should have given Mr McLeish's proposal.

I do not think that we should compound that felony today or try to cover up for the mistakes that were made at Westminster. We should make a clear parliamentary declaration to do something about it. Mr Finnie has tried to give the impression that none of this really matters. Some of the questions he was asked, particularly the one from Mr Canavan, indicated that it might well matter. Mr Robson's contribution indicated why it might well matter. It is not enough to wave it away and say that we will work out later whose jurisdiction any offences that take place might come under. An offence could take place tomorrow in that 6,000 square miles of Scottish water and the de minimis position is that somebody who is accused of an offence should at least know in which court they are going to have to defend themselves.

I represent the biggest fishing constituency in Scotland; my colleague Margaret Ewing represents the second biggest; and Mr Wallace represents a major fishing constituency, although in the Scottish Parliament he represents less than half of the fishing interests that he represents at Westminster. Some of our constituents are occasionally accused of infringements—these things happen from time to time. Many succeed in proving their case in court. There are some solicitors in Scotland who are well versed in fishing law and who often succeed in proving our constituents innocent, and justice takes its course. It would be very difficult for my constituents and those of other members if they had to defend themselves in an English court—there would be substantial expense, inconvenience and uncertainty, but the minister seems prepared to tolerate that. I think we should give short shrift to that this afternoon.

There is a further matter of importance, beyond the immediate issue of legal jurisdiction, that lies in the nature of fisheries policy. Not too many members will be well versed in this matter, but I will take a minute to explain why it could be of substantial, practical importance. It is simply not true, as the Executive claims in its motion, that the order will in no way restrict the freedom of Scottish fishermen in terms of the common fisheries policy. That policy is itself in a process of evolution. Many good ideas have emerged in the debates on fishing policy over the past few years. One, which came from the industry, was to ban discards— small dead fish thrown over the side of the boat— which is a waste and an obscenity in conservation terms.

The Scottish industry has been strongly in favour of an absolute ban on discards and argues that all fish caught should be landed so that they can be properly assessed. That is an attractive policy and it may well be an option that this Parliament will want to consider. As things stand, we could legislate for that option with effect on Scottish boats anywhere, but we could not legislate for other boats that are fishing in Scottish waters. Nothing undermines conservation policy in the fishing industry more than the feeling that regulations can be imposed on our fishermen but not on other boats that are fishing in our waters. The common fisheries policy is moving towards coastal state management—zonal management. That is how the policy has evolved and it has great support throughout the community.

The 6,000 square miles form a significant fishing ground that we do not want to slip out of Scottish jurisdiction and policy measures that we might want to impose. Mr Finnie should think very carefully before he says that the order is not relevant to practical fishing concerns. It is also untrue that there are no lines of jurisdiction at

present. The Continental Shelf (Jurisdiction) Order (UK) 1968 set a legal boundary for the purpose of prosecution concerning oil rigs and platforms. As far as the fishing interest is concerned, there is a custom and practice line, as Mr Robson's excellent speech exemplified.

Probably the worst aspect of all this is that the practice that was followed in that Westminster committee did not follow international legal precedents. The opinion that my colleague Mr Richard Lochhead quoted from Dr Iain Scobbie— who is an acknowledged expert in such areas— makes that very clear. Dr Scobbie said:

\"Equidistance is an accepted method in opposite delimitations, but not in those involving lateral adjacency.\"

In other words, if the boundary were between Scotland and Norway it would be correct to use the method of equidistance, but between states that are in lateral adjacency that method is not the common practice under international law. Dr Scobbie stated that two thirds of the cases under international law have not been settled using the method of equidistance. What prevails in those cases tends to be custom and practice.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7484974+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C704127", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26604, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 26604, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon (Argyll and Bute) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 187.0, "ContributionID": 704127, "EditedText": "Thank you, deputy leader—Laughter. An excellent start. I support some of the sentiments that have been expressed, especially those of Mr Lochhead. Last weekend I attended the Clyde fishermen's association lunch. It was long and it was liquid, but I can tell the Parliament that this issue is very important to the fishing industry. We must send a strong message not only to the fishing industry, but to rural Scotland and to the rural industries that have felt neglected, or in many cases ignored, by Westminster. Alex Salmond's classic example— that there is only one debate a year on the fishing industry—sums up the importance that Westminster attaches to fishing and agricultural interests. It is essential that we send a strong signal to rural Scotland and its industries, saying that their agenda is one of the Parliament's top priorities. That is the nub of the argument today. What makes the fishermen angry is the lack of consultation on the implications of moving the line. That is the issue that must be discussed with the fisheries representatives and I am glad that the minister recognised that. The situation must change. The Scottish Parliament must today make it clear to the fisheries organisations that we will put their agenda at the top of our list of priorities. The new partnership Government must send out a clear signal that it believes that fishing, agriculture and all rural interests are indeed important.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you, deputy leader—[Laughter.] An excellent start.

I support some of the sentiments that have been expressed, especially those of Mr Lochhead. Last weekend I attended the Clyde fishermen's association lunch. It was long and it was liquid, but I can tell the Parliament that this issue is very important to the fishing industry. We must send a strong message not only to the fishing industry, but to rural Scotland and to the rural industries that have felt neglected, or in many cases ignored, by Westminster. Alex Salmond's classic example— that there is only one debate a year on the fishing industry—sums up the importance that Westminster attaches to fishing and agricultural interests. It is essential that we send a strong signal to rural Scotland and its industries, saying that their agenda is one of the Parliament's top priorities. That is the nub of the argument today. What makes the fishermen angry is the lack of consultation on the implications of moving the line. That is the issue that must be discussed with the fisheries representatives and I am glad that the minister recognised that.

The situation must change. The Scottish Parliament must today make it clear to the fisheries organisations that we will put their agenda at the top of our list of priorities. The new partnership Government must send out a clear signal that it believes that fishing, agriculture and all rural interests are indeed important.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7484974+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1888E265P358C704128", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26604, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 26604, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morgan, Alasdair", "ID": 1888, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Galloway and Upper Nithsdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morgan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alasdair Morgan rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 189.0, "ContributionID": 704128, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7484974+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C704135", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26604, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 26604, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 205.0, "ContributionID": 704135, "EditedText": "Please wind up now, Mr Tosh.", "EditedTextHTML": "Please wind up now, Mr Tosh.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7484974+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C704137", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26604, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 26604, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 209.0, "ContributionID": 704137, "EditedText": "Please wind up now, Mr Tosh.", "EditedTextHTML": "Please wind up now, Mr Tosh.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7484974+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1950E155P451C704144", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26604, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 26604, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Campbell, Colin", "ID": 1950, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Colin Campbell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Colin Campbell (West of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 224.0, "ContributionID": 704144, "EditedText": "I used to be on Renfrewshire Council, so I am accustomed to having my microphone cut off. The new boundary was, very strangely, set on the basis of international law, a fact that would have been exciting had our history been four or eight years down the line. It is quaint that that was the basis. The use of international law east to west across the North sea would be appropriate, but not north to south between England and Scotland. On 26 March, Lord Sewel wrote to Richard Lochhead, saying—Ross Finnie reiterated it in his introductory speech—that \"the use of median lines mean that every point on the boundary is equidistant to Scotland and to England\". That will fascinate members. Those who have doctorates in geography can explain to the others what this means: the line is a loxodromic line that is drawn on a Mercator projection. In a case between the UK and France on the continental shelf delimitation in 1977, the UK Government objected to those criteria being used to delineate territory between the French and the British, yet now it is using them in the UK. Lord Sewel also made it clear to the Scottish Fishermen's Federation and to Richard Lochhead that the boundaries were set by use of median lines. He stated unequivocally that the use of the median line is the normal international convention. That is not the case. I will précis our seven pages of legal opinion for those who will not read it. Charney and Alexander's \"International Maritime Boundaries (1993)\" establishes the fact that only 40 per cent of maritime boundaries follow the equidistance method. In a 1982 continental shelf dispute between Libya and Tunisia, the International Court of Justice ruled that \"equidistance is not either a mandatory legal principle or a method having some privileged status in relation to other methods.\" Henry McLeish stated in committee that\"the boundary has no significance for other matters . . . In particular, it has no relevance to the regulation of oil and gas exploration and production at sea\".—Official Report, House of Commons, Third Standing Committee on Delegated Legislation, 23 March 1999; c 5. Ross Finnie said the same thing—that the boundary has no significance for those matters because they relate to areas that are reserved to Westminster. For how long will that be the case? It is not the SNP's ambition to allow those matters to be left reserved.Labour bases the boundary on international law, yet there is a trend in international law to have single boundaries for all purposes—for example, for oil exploration and for fisheries. The UK signed and is bound by the 1982 United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea, yet it has departed from the convention's provisions in making this boundary change. If one were into conspiracy theories—of course, being as innocent and pure as all other members in the chamber, I am not—one might suspect that, if the boundary change stands, its existence could be used as a precedent for other boundary changes relating to oil, gas and other matters that are of interest to the nations that make up the United Kingdom. That could happen, even though Henry McLeish has assured us that it will not. The change is unnecessary, unwanted and sets dangerous precedents. To put it in terms that Ross Finnie—who is from the west of Scotland—will understand, it is a bit of a pauchle. Anyone who thinks that it is not has come up the Clyde on a banana skin.", "EditedTextHTML": "I used to be on Renfrewshire Council, so I am accustomed to having my microphone cut off.

The new boundary was, very strangely, set on the basis of international law, a fact that would have been exciting had our history been four or eight years down the line. It is quaint that that was the basis. The use of international law east to west across the North sea would be appropriate, but not north to south between England and Scotland.

On 26 March, Lord Sewel wrote to Richard Lochhead, saying—Ross Finnie reiterated it in his introductory speech—that

\"the use of median lines mean that every point on the boundary is equidistant to Scotland and to England\".

That will fascinate members. Those who have doctorates in geography can explain to the others what this means: the line is a loxodromic line that is drawn on a Mercator projection. In a case between the UK and France on the continental shelf delimitation in 1977, the UK Government objected to those criteria being used to delineate territory between the French and the British, yet now it is using them in the UK.

Lord Sewel also made it clear to the Scottish Fishermen's Federation and to Richard Lochhead that the boundaries were set by use of median lines. He stated unequivocally that the use of the median line is the normal international convention. That is not the case. I will précis our seven pages of legal opinion for those who will not read it. Charney and Alexander's \"International Maritime Boundaries (1993)\" establishes the fact that only 40 per cent of maritime boundaries follow the equidistance method.

In a 1982 continental shelf dispute between Libya and Tunisia, the International Court of Justice ruled that

\"equidistance is not either a mandatory legal principle or a method having some privileged status in relation to other methods.\"

Henry McLeish stated in committee that

\"the boundary has no significance for other matters . . . In particular, it has no relevance to the regulation of oil and gas exploration and production at sea\".—[Official Report, House of Commons, Third Standing Committee on Delegated Legislation, 23 March 1999; c 5.]

Ross Finnie said the same thing—that the boundary has no significance for those matters because they relate to areas that are reserved to Westminster. For how long will that be the case? It is not the SNP's ambition to allow those matters to

be left reserved.

Labour bases the boundary on international law, yet there is a trend in international law to have single boundaries for all purposes—for example, for oil exploration and for fisheries. The UK signed and is bound by the 1982 United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea, yet it has departed from the convention's provisions in making this boundary change.

If one were into conspiracy theories—of course, being as innocent and pure as all other members in the chamber, I am not—one might suspect that, if the boundary change stands, its existence could be used as a precedent for other boundary changes relating to oil, gas and other matters that are of interest to the nations that make up the United Kingdom. That could happen, even though Henry McLeish has assured us that it will not.

The change is unnecessary, unwanted and sets dangerous precedents. To put it in terms that Ross Finnie—who is from the west of Scotland—will understand, it is a bit of a pauchle. Anyone who thinks that it is not has come up the Clyde on a banana skin.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7484974+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2100E64P254C704152", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26604, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 26604, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Home Robertson, John", "ID": 2100, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Lothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "John Home Robertson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs (Mr John Home Robertson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 244.0, "ContributionID": 704152, "EditedText": "As a matter of interest, Madam Deputy Presiding Officer, how long do I have? It is rather complicated, as the clocks are set at different times.", "EditedTextHTML": "As a matter of interest, Madam Deputy Presiding Officer, how long do I have? It is rather complicated, as the clocks are set at different times.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7484974+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2100E64P254C704154", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26604, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 26604, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Home Robertson, John", "ID": 2100, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Lothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "John Home Robertson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Home Robertson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 248.0, "ContributionID": 704154, "EditedText": "I am grateful.The debate has raised some serious points, which will be treated seriously by the Administration. It has also raised some rather silly points, which will be treated accordingly by the fishing industry and by the chamber. I look forward to seeing Dr Scobbie's legal opinion, but guarantee that, unlike the nationalists, he will not propose a direct line of latitude. The fishing industry and the Scottish fishing communities are extremely important to the whole of Scotland. The Government motion is a formal acknowledgement of that fact, and of the fact that we intend to work closely with the industry for our fishing communities. That work will include proper consultation and proper dialogue, starting with a meeting between the Minister for Rural Affairs, myself and the Scottish Fishermen's Federation tomorrow, when we will get down to the serious business that must be addressed. One or two points need to be nailed down fairly hard. On 8 March, our colleagues in the Scottish Office gave proper public notification about the background and the meaning of the new boundary line, and 57 copies of a news release were circulated to different organisations and to the press. I fully recognise that official press statements are not always the best way to get information into the public domain. It is often more effective to mark the information \"confidential\", and to leave it in a plain brown envelope in a pub. However, we understand that there is a serious point, and I agree with Mr Robson. We must have open and clear lines of communication and consultation with the industry. That will be the order of the day in future, and that is a specific undertaking. The industry had an excuse for not noticing what was going on, and we will put that right. The SNP did not have that excuse. It has that £130,000 of Short money and researchers in Westminster. Why did SNP members not take the opportunity to turn up and to debate this matter on 23 March? This matter is of particular interest to fishermen in Dunbar and Port Seton in my own constituency. If their interests were being undermined in any way, I can assure members that I would be taking a close interest in the matter. The order does not amend an existing boundary. All that we have had until now is an ad hoc arrangement between two United Kingdom fishery patrol agencies.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful.

The debate has raised some serious points, which will be treated seriously by the Administration. It has also raised some rather silly points, which will be treated accordingly by the fishing industry and by the chamber. I look forward to seeing Dr Scobbie's legal opinion, but guarantee that, unlike the nationalists, he will not propose a direct line of latitude.

The fishing industry and the Scottish fishing communities are extremely important to the whole of Scotland. The Government motion is a formal acknowledgement of that fact, and of the fact that we intend to work closely with the industry for our fishing communities. That work will include proper consultation and proper dialogue, starting with a meeting between the Minister for Rural Affairs, myself and the Scottish Fishermen's Federation tomorrow, when we will get down to the serious business that must be addressed.

One or two points need to be nailed down fairly hard. On 8 March, our colleagues in the Scottish Office gave proper public notification about the background and the meaning of the new boundary line, and 57 copies of a news release were circulated to different organisations and to the press. I fully recognise that official press statements are not always the best way to get information into the public domain. It is often more effective to mark the information \"confidential\", and to leave it in a plain brown envelope in a pub. However, we understand that there is a serious point, and I agree with Mr Robson. We must have open and clear lines of communication and consultation with the industry. That will be the order of the day in future, and that is a specific undertaking.

The industry had an excuse for not noticing what was going on, and we will put that right. The SNP did not have that excuse. It has that £130,000 of Short money and researchers in Westminster. Why did SNP members not take the opportunity to turn up and to debate this matter on 23 March?

This matter is of particular interest to fishermen in Dunbar and Port Seton in my own constituency. If their interests were being undermined in any way, I can assure members that I would be taking a close interest in the matter. The order does not amend an existing boundary. All that we have had until now is an ad hoc arrangement between two United Kingdom fishery patrol agencies.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7484974+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C704155", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26604, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 26604, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 250.0, "ContributionID": 704155, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7484974+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2100E64P254C704156", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26604, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 26604, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Home Robertson, John", "ID": 2100, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Lothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "John Home Robertson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Home Robertson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 252.0, "ContributionID": 704156, "EditedText": "I am sorry; I do not have time. This new Parliament has distinct responsibilities, and that is why we now have a proper boundary line, set in accordance with fair and objective principles. The new line has no sinister implications and it does not impinge in any way on the rights of Scottish fishermen to fish in waters on either side of it. I refer now to the Opposition. It was always going to be entertaining to see the new coalition between the nationalists and the Tories, and we have seen it today. We have heard some dramatic stuff about the wicked English stealing Scottish waters and lurid speculation about blameless fishermen from Carnoustie being dragged off to alien courts by the English navy. Frankly, such speculation is irresponsible nonsense. Fishermen are entitled to expect serious consideration, and they will get that from this Administration. The most depressing feature of the debate has been the chorus of whingeing from nationalists who seem to want to use Scotland's Parliament as a platform for ritual girning about our neighbours south of the border. For goodness' sake, after 300 years we have at last achieved a Parliament with responsibility for the whole Scottish fishing industry and 140,000 square miles of our adjacent waters. We have access to all our fleet's traditional fishing grounds elsewhere and two thirds of the catch of the UK fishing fleet. We should be working together to set a positive agenda for this great industry, and that is what we propose to do. What we have from Mr Salmond—Interruption. I see that he is digging, and we are all familiar with that. What we have from Mr Salmond is the parliamentary equivalent of a letter to The Scotsman complete with ludicrous conspiracy theories, signed by \"Disgusted of Banff and Buchan\" and endorsed by his new friends in the Conservative party. Our fishermen deserve much, much better than that. This Administration will take the interests of our fishing communities very seriously indeed.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry; I do not have time.

This new Parliament has distinct responsibilities, and that is why we now have a proper boundary line, set in accordance with fair and objective principles. The new line has no sinister implications and it does not impinge in any way on the rights of Scottish fishermen to fish in waters on either side of it.

I refer now to the Opposition. It was always going to be entertaining to see the new coalition

between the nationalists and the Tories, and we have seen it today. We have heard some dramatic stuff about the wicked English stealing Scottish waters and lurid speculation about blameless fishermen from Carnoustie being dragged off to alien courts by the English navy. Frankly, such speculation is irresponsible nonsense. Fishermen are entitled to expect serious consideration, and they will get that from this Administration.

The most depressing feature of the debate has been the chorus of whingeing from nationalists who seem to want to use Scotland's Parliament as a platform for ritual girning about our neighbours south of the border. For goodness' sake, after 300 years we have at last achieved a Parliament with responsibility for the whole Scottish fishing industry and 140,000 square miles of our adjacent waters. We have access to all our fleet's traditional fishing grounds elsewhere and two thirds of the catch of the UK fishing fleet. We should be working together to set a positive agenda for this great industry, and that is what we propose to do.

What we have from Mr Salmond—[Interruption.] I see that he is digging, and we are all familiar with that. What we have from Mr Salmond is the parliamentary equivalent of a letter to The Scotsman complete with ludicrous conspiracy theories, signed by \"Disgusted of Banff and Buchan\" and endorsed by his new friends in the Conservative party.

Our fishermen deserve much, much better than that. This Administration will take the interests of our fishing communities very seriously indeed.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7484974+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C704157", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26604, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 26604, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 254.0, "ContributionID": 704157, "EditedText": "On a point of order, Madam Deputy Presiding Officer. Today, we have heard time and again requests for moderate, temperate language in the debate; what we are getting from the minister is anything but.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order, Madam Deputy Presiding Officer. Today, we have heard time and again requests for moderate, temperate language in the debate; what we are getting from the minister is anything but.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7484974+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C704172", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26605, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 264.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 264.0, "ID": 26605, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 282.0, "ContributionID": 704172, "EditedText": "There will be a division. Members will remember that they should vote yes to agree with the motion, no to disagree with the motion, and abstain to record an abstention. Members have 30 seconds in which to cast their votes.", "EditedTextHTML": "There will be a division. Members will remember that they should vote yes to agree with the motion, no to disagree with the motion, and abstain to record an abstention. Members have 30 seconds in which to cast their votes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7484974+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704175", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26605, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 264.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 264.0, "ID": 26605, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 287.0, "ContributionID": 704175, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7484974+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C704178", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26605, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 264.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 264.0, "ID": 26605, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 290.0, "ContributionID": 704178, "EditedText": "The next question is, that amendment S1M-19.2, in the name of Mr Alex Salmond, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "The next question is, that amendment S1M-19.2, in the name of Mr Alex Salmond, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7484974+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704181", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26605, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 264.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 264.0, "ID": 26605, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 296.0, "ContributionID": 704181, "EditedText": "FOR Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)Crawford, Bruce JP (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)AGAINST Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)Mackay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)ABSTENTIONS Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)(LD)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Crawford, Bruce JP (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)

AGAINST

Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Mackay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)

ABSTENTIONS

Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)
(LD)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7484974+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C704182", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26605, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 264.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 264.0, "ID": 26605, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 297.0, "ContributionID": 704182, "EditedText": "The result of the division is as follows: For 55, Against 63, Abstentions 7.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result of the division is as follows: For 55, Against 63, Abstentions 7.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7484974+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C704186", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26605, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 264.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 264.0, "ID": 26605, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 303.0, "ContributionID": 704186, "EditedText": "The question is, that motion S1M-19, in the name of Ross Finnie, as amended, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "The question is, that motion S1M-19, in the name of Ross Finnie, as amended, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7484974+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C704193", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26605, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 264.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 264.0, "ID": 26605, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 315.0, "ContributionID": 704193, "EditedText": "That concludes the business for today.", "EditedTextHTML": "That concludes the business for today.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7484974+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704194", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26605, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 264.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 264.0, "ID": 26605, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 317.0, "ContributionID": 704194, "EditedText": "Meeting closed at 17:06.", "EditedTextHTML": "Meeting closed at 17:06.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7484974+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2180E179P471C704105", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26604, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 26604, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lochhead, Richard", "ID": 2180, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Lochhead", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Richard Lochhead (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 136.0, "ContributionID": 704105, "EditedText": "I had at the ready a few remarks with which to demolish the minister elect's case, but my colleagues have done that before I have even opened my mouth. I welcome Mr Finnie's remarks about the importance of the fishing industry to Scotland. It is appropriate that the first one-hour political debate in this Parliament is devoted to the fishing industry, which is a perfect example of an industry that is looking to the Scottish Parliament to echo its concerns and give it the voice it has been lacking for a long time. Only days before the first meeting of this Parliament, an obscure piece of legislation was passed by an obscure committee in what is, of course, an obscure Parliament in Westminster delivering yet another blow to the Scottish fishing industry. The industry is now campaigning for that order, which is of course the Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries Order 1999, to be reversed. I am delighted to see the leaders of the fishing industry in the public gallery to hear the Parliament speak out on their behalf. The fishermen's case is simple: they want to retain the boundary that we all know. There is already a fishing boundary, which is known by every fisherman and mariner and Scotland. No one can find any reason why anyone anywhere should try to change it. The boundary, which goes straight out east from Berwick, has been established by custom and practice. Generations of Scottish fishermen have fished those waters, the vast majority of fishing vessels to be found in those waters are from Scotland, the area is patrolled by the Scottish Fisheries Protection Agency and the area currently falls within Scottish jurisdiction. There is also legal precedent. The latitude of 55° 50´ marks the line used by the Scottish Fisheries Protection Agency and is on the map it uses. Scotland has a jurisdiction and the waters currently fall within it. The Civil Jurisdiction (Offshore Activities) Order 1987 follows a similar line and deals with offshore activities. The Government's move at Westminster flies in the face of custom and practice. It throws up various anomalies. I, too, would like to quote the example that Hamish Morrison, the chief executive of the Scottish Fishermen's Federation, is using in favour of the fishermen's case and which Dennis Canavan brought to our attention. If a fishing vessel in these waters collides with an oil vessel, they will now come under different jurisdictions— the fishing vessel will fall under English jurisdiction and the oil vessel will fall under Scottish jurisdiction. What sense does that make? How many boundaries do we need? The outgoing fisheries minister—old Blackbeard himself, Lord Sewel—defends the theft of Scottish waters by asking what all the panic is about. The fishing industry's response is to ask why it is necessary to change the boundary if it is not going to make any difference. The reality is that the new boundary does make a difference: it means that Scottish fishermen would have to appear in English courts if they were pulled up for an infringement in that area of the sea. That would lead to massive inconvenience and massive additional expense because the fishermen would have to hire an English barrister to defend their case in an English court. The order reduces the territory over which this Parliament will have a remit. With regard to implementing European Union fisheries policy, what happens if the Scottish Parliament decides to introduce square mesh? Will that decision apply to fishing in those waters? The common fisheries policy is currently being renegotiated by the European Union. Zonal management is a key idea arising from the negotiations. What will happen to that zone? Will it be a Scottish zone? Probably not. If this order is approved, the Scottish Parliament will have no say over what happens in that zone and we will have lost an area in which we could have implemented our zonal management policies. The Government's case is riddled with confusion and contradictions. Lord Sewel's pathetic defence of the Government's decision has fallen apart and, as we have seen today, the Scottish Executive's defence of Westminster's decision is also falling apart. First, Lord Sewel told us that there was no fisheries boundary. That led to an outcry in the fishing industry. Then he retreated and said that there was a boundary and that the Scottish Fisheries Protection Agency used it, but it was only an administrative boundary. His last line of defence is that the Government has relied on international conventions to draw up the new boundary. That claim has now been destroyed, because the SNP has commissioned a legal opinion, which was published this morning, from Dr Iain Scobbie, senior lecturer in international law at Glasgow University and the visiting professor at the University of Paris II. The seven-page legal opinion demolishes the Government's case for the new boundary. It is seven pages long, so I will not read it out now.", "EditedTextHTML": "I had at the ready a few remarks with which to demolish the minister elect's case, but my colleagues have done that before I have even opened my mouth.

I welcome Mr Finnie's remarks about the importance of the fishing industry to Scotland. It is appropriate that the first one-hour political debate in this Parliament is devoted to the fishing industry, which is a perfect example of an industry that is looking to the Scottish Parliament to echo its concerns and give it the voice it has been lacking for a long time.

Only days before the first meeting of this Parliament, an obscure piece of legislation was passed by an obscure committee in what is, of course, an obscure Parliament in Westminster delivering yet another blow to the Scottish fishing industry. The industry is now campaigning for that order, which is of course the Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries Order 1999, to be reversed. I am delighted to see the leaders of the fishing industry in the public gallery to hear the Parliament speak out on their behalf.

The fishermen's case is simple: they want to retain the boundary that we all know. There is already a fishing boundary, which is known by every fisherman and mariner and Scotland. No one can find any reason why anyone anywhere should try to change it.

The boundary, which goes straight out east from Berwick, has been established by custom and practice. Generations of Scottish fishermen have fished those waters, the vast majority of fishing vessels to be found in those waters are from Scotland, the area is patrolled by the Scottish Fisheries Protection Agency and the area currently falls within Scottish jurisdiction.

There is also legal precedent. The latitude of 55° 50´ marks the line used by the Scottish Fisheries Protection Agency and is on the map it uses. Scotland has a jurisdiction and the waters currently fall within it. The Civil Jurisdiction (Offshore Activities) Order 1987 follows a similar line and deals with offshore activities.

The Government's move at Westminster flies in the face of custom and practice. It throws up various anomalies. I, too, would like to quote the example that Hamish Morrison, the chief executive of the Scottish Fishermen's Federation, is using in favour of the fishermen's case and which Dennis Canavan brought to our attention. If a fishing vessel in these waters collides with an oil vessel, they will now come under different jurisdictions— the fishing vessel will fall under English jurisdiction and the oil vessel will fall under Scottish jurisdiction. What sense does that make? How many boundaries do we need?

The outgoing fisheries minister—old Blackbeard himself, Lord Sewel—defends the theft of Scottish waters by asking what all the panic is about. The fishing industry's response is to ask why it is necessary to change the boundary if it is not going to make any difference. The reality is that the new boundary does make a difference: it means that Scottish fishermen would have to appear in English courts if they were pulled up for an infringement in that area of the sea. That would lead to massive inconvenience and massive additional expense because the fishermen would have to hire an English barrister to defend their case in an English court.

The order reduces the territory over which this Parliament will have a remit. With regard to implementing European Union fisheries policy, what happens if the Scottish Parliament decides to introduce square mesh? Will that decision apply to fishing in those waters? The common fisheries policy is currently being renegotiated by the European Union. Zonal management is a key idea arising from the negotiations. What will happen to that zone? Will it be a Scottish zone? Probably not. If this order is approved, the Scottish Parliament will have no say over what happens in that zone and we will have lost an area in which we could have implemented our zonal management policies.

The Government's case is riddled with confusion and contradictions. Lord Sewel's pathetic defence of the Government's decision has fallen apart and, as we have seen today, the Scottish Executive's defence of Westminster's decision is also falling apart. First, Lord Sewel told us that there was no fisheries boundary. That led to an outcry in the fishing industry. Then he retreated and said that there was a boundary and that the Scottish Fisheries Protection Agency used it, but it was only an administrative boundary. His last line of defence is that the Government has relied on international conventions to draw up the new boundary. That claim has now been destroyed, because the SNP has commissioned a legal opinion, which was published this morning, from Dr Iain Scobbie, senior lecturer in international law at Glasgow University and the visiting professor at

the University of Paris II. The seven-page legal opinion demolishes the Government's case for the new boundary. It is seven pages long, so I will not read it out now.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:55.929179+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2180E179P471C704107", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26604, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 26604, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lochhead, Richard", "ID": 2180, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Lochhead", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Richard Lochhead: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 140.0, "ContributionID": 704107, "EditedText": "I am not suggesting that. I have a seven-page legal opinion from an internationally renowned expert, which I would be delighted to make available to all members and to the Scottish Executive. I shall place copies in the information centre. I shall quote from the last paragraph:\"It is clear that the position set out by the Government in relation to the Scottish Adjacent Waters Order is not in accordance with contemporary international law and practice. The claim that the delimitation employed in this Order reflects 'the normal international convention' simply cannot be sustained.\" Would it not have been easier for Westminster to consult the fishing industry and this Parliament to avoid being in this enormous mess? Lord Sewel—I hope this will not happen to the Scottish Executive—appears to be going round in circles. The Press and Journal editorial on 25 May said of the Government's arguments: \"Every one of them has a distinct whiff of someone scrabbling for straws to defend the indefensible\". It is appalling that we come here today and a member of the Scottish Executive is trying to defend the indefensible, as the Westminster spokespeople are doing. This Parliament is seen by the people of Scotland and Scotland's industries as an opportunity to speak up for Scotland. Today, let us not take a decision to defend the indefensible— Westminster stealing 6,000 square miles of Scottish waters. I ask the Parliament to support the amendment. I move, to leave out from \"notes\" where it appears first to end and add \"calls upon Her Majesty's Government to amend the Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries Order (S.I. 1999/1126) made under the Scotland Act 1998 so that the East Coast boundary is redrawn to a line of latitude due east of the termination point of land border between England and Scotland to re-establish the custom and practice of former years.\"", "EditedTextHTML": "I am not suggesting that. I have a seven-page legal opinion from an internationally renowned expert, which I would be delighted to make available to all members and to the Scottish Executive. I shall place copies in the information centre.

I shall quote from the last paragraph:

\"It is clear that the position set out by the Government in relation to the Scottish Adjacent Waters Order is not in accordance with contemporary international law and practice. The claim that the delimitation employed in this Order reflects 'the normal international convention' simply cannot be sustained.\"

Would it not have been easier for Westminster to consult the fishing industry and this Parliament to avoid being in this enormous mess?

Lord Sewel—I hope this will not happen to the Scottish Executive—appears to be going round in circles. The Press and Journal editorial on 25 May said of the Government's arguments:

\"Every one of them has a distinct whiff of someone scrabbling for straws to defend the indefensible\".

It is appalling that we come here today and a member of the Scottish Executive is trying to defend the indefensible, as the Westminster spokespeople are doing.

This Parliament is seen by the people of Scotland and Scotland's industries as an opportunity to speak up for Scotland. Today, let us not take a decision to defend the indefensible— Westminster stealing 6,000 square miles of Scottish waters. I ask the Parliament to support the amendment.

I move, to leave out from \"notes\" where it appears first to end and add

\"calls upon Her Majesty's Government to amend the Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries Order (S.I. 1999/1126) made under the Scotland Act 1998 so that the East Coast boundary is redrawn to a line of latitude due east of the termination point of land border between England and Scotland to re-establish the custom and practice of former years.\"

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:55.929179+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C704050", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26603, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 11.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 11.0, "ID": 26603, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 14.0, "ContributionID": 704050, "EditedText": "The debate is scheduled to end at 4 pm and will be followed by a debate on motion S1M-19 in the name of Mr Ross Finnie on the Scottish adjacent waters boundaries, and the amendments thereto. That in turn will be followed at 5 pm by decision time, when questions on all three motions and the amendments will be put. As in yesterday's debate, Mr McLeish will formally move only the first of the motions at this stage but will speak on both. I also invite other members to speak on either motion, or both. I will ask Mr McLeish formally to move his second motion before questions are put at decision time. At this stage I do not propose to set any time limit for members' speeches during the first debate. I may, however, review that position towards the end of the time allocated if a large number of members are still waiting to speak.", "EditedTextHTML": "The debate is scheduled to end at 4 pm and will be followed by a debate on motion S1M-19 in the name of Mr Ross Finnie on the Scottish adjacent waters boundaries, and the amendments thereto. That in turn will be followed at 5 pm by decision time, when questions on all three motions and the amendments will be put.

As in yesterday's debate, Mr McLeish will formally move only the first of the motions at this stage but will speak on both. I also invite other members to speak on either motion, or both. I will ask Mr McLeish formally to move his second motion before questions are put at decision time. At this stage I do not propose to set any time limit for members' speeches during the first debate. I may, however, review that position towards the end of the time allocated if a large number of members are still waiting to speak.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C704085", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26604, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 26604, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 95.0, "ContributionID": 704085, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1821E295P538C704086", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26604, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 26604, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Mrs Margaret", "ID": 1821, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Moray" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 97.0, "ContributionID": 704086, "EditedText": "It is a matter for Scottish fishermen.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is a matter for Scottish fishermen.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C704087", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26604, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 26604, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ross Finnie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 99.0, "ContributionID": 704087, "EditedText": "It is not a matter—", "EditedTextHTML": "It is not a matter—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1821E295P538C704088", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26604, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 26604, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Mrs Margaret", "ID": 1821, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Moray" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 101.0, "ContributionID": 704088, "EditedText": "Why not?", "EditedTextHTML": "Why not?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C704058", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26603, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 11.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 11.0, "ID": 26603, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 33.0, "ContributionID": 704058, "EditedText": "The Conservatives go along, in the main, with Mr McLeish's comments, but—if the chamber will bear with me—I seek clarification on a number of the schedules. Schedule 9 to the order on cross-border authorities refers to the Council on Tribunals. We very much welcome the passing of control of the tribunals to the Scottish Parliament, but we have some concerns about industrial tribunals in particular, especially given the weird and wonderful decisions that they have made recently. How much control will the Parliament have over the make-up of the chairmen's panels? Will changes be made in the methods of taking and recording evidence? We feel that that is necessary. If the statute gives us that right, we applaud it. A number of questions arise from schedule 10, which concerns criminal injuries. Under paragraph 2 of part II, the adjudicator will be either the secretary of state or the Scottish ministers, but who will have the final say? Who is the authority? If there is a dispute, who will make the decisions? A similar problem arises with net expenditure, which can be determined by the Home Department. However, expenditure incurred in Scotland has to be reimbursed to the Secretary of State for Scotland. What does that mean in relation to the block grant? Is there a change of status? On the National Criminal Intelligence Service, we are again concerned about financing. The order states that Scottish ministers may make payments on Scottish issues, but is there a choice? Once again, where does the money come from? Is this a change of status and will the order in effect lead to a reduction in the block grant? There is another aspect to that, because the involvement of the Scottish police service would benefit NCIS. We wonder whether there is some direct means of re-injecting cash back into the Scottish police force rather than paying the money to the Secretary of State for Scotland. On schedule 21, we are aware that there will be much support for the retention of the UK-wide agreement on police pay scales, which is almost certainly necessary if we are to maintain harmony and co-operation among the police forces across the UK. The retention of the agreement would without doubt be welcomed by the Scottish Police Federation and the Association of Scottish Police Superintendents. One or two queries come to mind with regard to cross-border policing and the powers of arrest of the English and the Scottish forces, particularly when a crime is committed in Scotland and Scottish policemen pursue the criminal. When they cut across the border, what powers will be left for the English police to apprehend the criminal and assist the Scottish police on what has become a cross-border matter? I believe that we have nothing to worry about, but I seek assurances because some concerns may arise about the matter. It is all very well to talk about pay structures and pay negotiations for Scottish police officers, but recent statements in the press have given rise to concerns about the structures in which they serve. One of the Scottish nationalists recently referred to a reduction in the number of police forces. Currently, Scotland has eight police forces and the suggestion in the press was that the number would be reduced to three. My understanding is that the secretary of state suggested, about a year ago, that there would have to be a review of police structures. Since then, some negotiations have taken place with various interested parties and I understand that a steering committee has been established. I welcome that, but one year on from the secretary of state's statement, which referred to a comprehensive spending review that would examine only the costing of the police service, I ask the minister whether the way in which the police service carries out its duties is now being looked at. How many times has the steering committee met? Is it making positive progress? I also seek guidance on schedule 6, which deals with the chief commissioner and other commissioners who are appointed for the purposes of part III of the Police Act 1997. I was not at Westminster then, but I believe that the act covers England and Wales but not Scotland. I understand that part of the act may address intrusive surveillance. If it does, may I ask the minister whether individuals have been appointed as commissioners in Scotland and, if so, who they are? When were they appointed and, if they have taken up their duties, when did they do so?", "EditedTextHTML": "The Conservatives go along, in the main, with Mr McLeish's comments, but—if the chamber will bear with me—I seek clarification on a number of the schedules.

Schedule 9 to the order on cross-border authorities refers to the Council on Tribunals. We very much welcome the passing of control of the tribunals to the Scottish Parliament, but we have some concerns about industrial tribunals in particular, especially given the weird and wonderful decisions that they have made recently. How much control will the Parliament have over the make-up of the chairmen's panels? Will changes be made in the methods of taking and recording evidence? We feel that that is necessary. If the statute gives us that right, we applaud it.

A number of questions arise from schedule 10, which concerns criminal injuries. Under paragraph 2 of part II, the adjudicator will be either the secretary of state or the Scottish ministers, but who will have the final say? Who is the authority? If there is a dispute, who will make the decisions? A similar problem arises with net expenditure, which can be determined by the Home Department. However, expenditure incurred in Scotland has to be reimbursed to the Secretary of State for Scotland. What does that mean in relation to the block grant? Is there a change of status?

On the National Criminal Intelligence Service, we are again concerned about financing. The order states that Scottish ministers may make payments on Scottish issues, but is there a choice? Once again, where does the money come from? Is this a change of status and will the order in effect lead to a reduction in the block grant? There is another aspect to that, because the involvement of the Scottish police service would benefit NCIS. We wonder whether there is some direct means of re-injecting cash back into the Scottish police force rather than paying the money to the Secretary of State for Scotland.

On schedule 21, we are aware that there will be much support for the retention of the UK-wide agreement on police pay scales, which is almost certainly necessary if we are to maintain harmony and co-operation among the police forces across the UK. The retention of the agreement would without doubt be welcomed by the Scottish Police Federation and the Association of Scottish Police Superintendents.

One or two queries come to mind with regard to cross-border policing and the powers of arrest of the English and the Scottish forces, particularly when a crime is committed in Scotland and Scottish policemen pursue the criminal. When they cut across the border, what powers will be left for the English police to apprehend the criminal and assist the Scottish police on what has become a cross-border matter? I believe that we have nothing to worry about, but I seek assurances because some concerns may arise about the matter.

It is all very well to talk about pay structures and pay negotiations for Scottish police officers, but recent statements in the press have given rise to concerns about the structures in which they serve. One of the Scottish nationalists recently referred to a reduction in the number of police forces. Currently, Scotland has eight police forces and the suggestion in the press was that the number would be reduced to three. My understanding is that the secretary of state suggested, about a year ago, that there would have to be a review of police structures. Since then, some negotiations have taken place with various interested parties and I understand that a steering committee has been established. I welcome that, but one year on from the secretary of state's statement, which referred to a comprehensive spending review that would examine only the costing of the police service, I ask the minister whether the way in which the police service carries out its duties is now being looked at. How many times has the steering committee met? Is it making positive progress?

I also seek guidance on schedule 6, which deals with the chief commissioner and other commissioners who are appointed for the purposes of part III of the Police Act 1997. I was not at Westminster then, but I believe that the act

covers England and Wales but not Scotland. I understand that part of the act may address intrusive surveillance. If it does, may I ask the minister whether individuals have been appointed as commissioners in Scotland and, if so, who they are? When were they appointed and, if they have taken up their duties, when did they do so?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C704059", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26603, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 11.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 11.0, "ID": 26603, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan (Falkirk West): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 36.0, "ContributionID": 704059, "EditedText": "Much of the advance publicity for today's debate was about the motion on the Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries Order and I understand the Scottish fishing community's concern and anger about the effects of that order. However, there is also understandable concern about the future of freshwater fishing in Scotland and I am particularly concerned about the effects of the Scotland Act 1998 (Border Rivers) Order 1999 on salmon and freshwater fisheries in Scotland. A letter, sent to me by a former Lord Advocate, gives an excellent statement of the common-law position in Scotland on freshwater fishing. I will quote from that letter, because it is important that the statement is put on the Scottish Parliament's official record at an early date: \"The common law position in relation to both salmon and trout is that they are not the property of anyone until they are caught. Thus, brown trout in waters not protected by an order under the Freshwater and Salmon Fisheries (Scotland) Act 1976 do not belong to anyone whilst they are in the water but become the property of the fisherman or person who catches and lands them whether or not that person owns the fishing rights and whether or not permission has been given.\" Since that letter was sent to me on 8 April 1981, it has been photocopied hundreds, possibly thousands, of times and has been used as an excellent defence by many Scottish anglers when they have been challenged by irate landowners, who try to chase them off the land and refuse them the right to fish the waters of Scotland. Lest anyone thinks that the letter was written by some left-wing, revolutionary lawyer, it should be noted that it was signed by James Mackay–Lord Mackay of Clashfern–who was a very distinguished Conservative Lord Advocate and, later, Lord Chancellor. Lord Mackay gave the common-law position in that letter but, of course, in salmon fishing the common law has been overridden for many years in Scotland by statute law. It was not until the Freshwater and Salmon Fisheries (Scotland) Act 1976 was passed that it became a criminal offence to fish for brown trout in protected waters. Sadly, since 1976 there has been a succession of protection orders covering many of the rivers, burns and lochs of Scotland. Although the spirit, and the declared intention, of the act was that there should be more protection in return for access, sadly, that has not happened. Many anglers complain about a decrease in access as a result of the act. I am reliably informed that the River Esk–which flows into the Solway firth and is covered by the Scotland Act 1998 (Border Rivers) Order 1999–is not governed by any protection order. That is true of both the Upper Esk and the Lower Esk. I also understand–this seems to have been confirmed by the minister's opening remarks–that since 1865 the River Esk has been run as if it were an English rather than a Scottish river, as it is in part. I am concerned because this statutory instrument gives new powers to the Environment Agency–that is the Environment Agency south of the border–to make byelaws on fishing in the Upper Esk. The order creates a new offence of unauthorised fishing in the Lower Esk, gives power to water bailiffs to enforce the new provisions and extends the existing powers of water bailiffs and other authorised persons to the whole of the River Esk– in both the Scottish and English parts of the river. The order also creates new offences that are applicable to the powers of water bailiffs. Even before this statutory instrument came before us, concern was expressed in many parts of Scotland about the extension of criminal law to freshwater fishing. That concern is understandable if we bear in mind the fact that angling is probably the most popular participatory sport in Scotland. Most responsible anglers do not want a free-forall; they realise that there must be control. However, control of things such as access, pricing, stocking and the management of freshwater fisheries ought to be democratic. I have said many times in the House of Commons that there should be a democratically constituted Scottish anglers trust to administer all freshwater fishing rights in Scotland. I hope to have an opportunity at a later date to speak about that in greater detail–possibly when legislation on it is introduced in this Parliament. I am concerned about this order and I hope that the minister will allay some of my fears when he sums up. If he does not, I will be obliged to vote against it.", "EditedTextHTML": "Much of the advance publicity for today's debate was about the motion on the Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries Order and I understand the Scottish fishing community's concern and anger about the effects of that order. However, there is also understandable concern about the future of freshwater fishing in Scotland and I am particularly concerned about the effects of the Scotland Act 1998 (Border Rivers) Order 1999 on salmon and freshwater fisheries in Scotland.

A letter, sent to me by a former Lord Advocate, gives an excellent statement of the common-law position in Scotland on freshwater fishing. I will quote from that letter, because it is important that the statement is put on the Scottish Parliament's official record at an early date:

\"The common law position in relation to both salmon and trout is that they are not the property of anyone until they are caught. Thus, brown trout in waters not protected by an order under the Freshwater and Salmon Fisheries (Scotland) Act 1976 do not belong to anyone whilst they are in the water but become the property of the fisherman or person who catches and lands them whether or not that person owns the fishing rights and whether or not permission has been given.\"

Since that letter was sent to me on 8 April 1981, it has been photocopied hundreds, possibly thousands, of times and has been used as an excellent defence by many Scottish anglers when they have been challenged by irate landowners, who try to chase them off the land and refuse them the right to fish the waters of Scotland. Lest anyone thinks that the letter was written by some left-wing, revolutionary lawyer, it should be noted that it was signed by James Mackay–Lord Mackay of Clashfern–who was a very distinguished Conservative Lord Advocate and, later, Lord Chancellor.

Lord Mackay gave the common-law position in that letter but, of course, in salmon fishing the common law has been overridden for many years in Scotland by statute law. It was not until the Freshwater and Salmon Fisheries (Scotland) Act 1976 was passed that it became a criminal offence to fish for brown trout in protected waters. Sadly, since 1976 there has been a succession of protection orders covering many of the rivers, burns and lochs of Scotland. Although the spirit, and the declared intention, of the act was that there should be more protection in return for access, sadly, that has not happened. Many anglers complain about a decrease in access as a result of the act.

I am reliably informed that the River Esk–which flows into the Solway firth and is covered by the Scotland Act 1998 (Border Rivers) Order 1999–is not governed by any protection order. That is true of both the Upper Esk and the Lower Esk. I also understand–this seems to have been confirmed by the minister's opening remarks–that since 1865 the River Esk has been run as if it were an English rather than a Scottish river, as it is in part. I am concerned because this statutory instrument gives new powers to the Environment Agency–that is the Environment Agency south of the border–to make byelaws on fishing in the Upper Esk. The order creates a new offence of unauthorised fishing in the Lower Esk, gives power to water bailiffs to enforce the new provisions and extends the existing powers of water bailiffs and other authorised persons to the whole of the River Esk– in both the Scottish and English parts of the river. The order also creates new offences that are applicable to the powers of water bailiffs.

Even before this statutory instrument came before us, concern was expressed in many parts of Scotland about the extension of criminal law to freshwater fishing. That concern is understandable if we bear in mind the fact that angling is probably the most popular participatory sport in Scotland. Most responsible anglers do not want a free-forall; they realise that there must be control. However, control of things such as access, pricing, stocking and the management of freshwater fisheries ought to be democratic.

I have said many times in the House of Commons that there should be a democratically constituted Scottish anglers trust to administer all freshwater fishing rights in Scotland. I hope to have an opportunity at a later date to speak about that in greater detail–possibly when legislation on it is introduced in this Parliament.

I am concerned about this order and I hope that the minister will allay some of my fears when he sums up. If he does not, I will be obliged to vote against it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1990E181P340C704062", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26603, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 11.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 11.0, "ID": 26603, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robson, Euan", "ID": 1990, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Roxburgh and Berwickshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Euan Robson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Euan Robson (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 45.0, "ContributionID": 704062, "EditedText": "I am a Tweed commissioner and therefore must declare some form of interest, although my interest is non-pecuniary. We remember Mr Canavan coming down to Kelso, in the Borders, with several of his pieces of paper. I recall him fishing opposite a noble residence, studiously ignored by everyone save a few distant onlookers. Mr Canavan has some misconceptions about freshwater fishing. What he must understand about the order is that it allows the management of the whole Tweed river system, including those bits that are within England. However, a more important point is that more than 90 per cent of fishable water for brown trout on the Tweed system is open to anglers. They have to pay a modest fee and I will sell him a ticket any time that he wants.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am a Tweed commissioner and therefore must declare some form of interest, although my interest is non-pecuniary.

We remember Mr Canavan coming down to Kelso, in the Borders, with several of his pieces of paper. I recall him fishing opposite a noble residence, studiously ignored by everyone save a few distant onlookers.

Mr Canavan has some misconceptions about freshwater fishing. What he must understand about the order is that it allows the management of the whole Tweed river system, including those bits that are within England. However, a more important point is that more than 90 per cent of fishable water for brown trout on the Tweed system is open to anglers. They have to pay a modest fee and I will sell him a ticket any time that he wants.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1990E181P340C704064", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26603, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 11.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 11.0, "ID": 26603, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robson, Euan", "ID": 1990, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Roxburgh and Berwickshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Euan Robson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Euan Robson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 49.0, "ContributionID": 704064, "EditedText": "I will give the prices for my local association: £5 for a day, £10 for a week and £20 for a season. All that money is reinvested into the river. That is the point: the Tweed protection order, about which there was considerable debate recently, has enhanced fishing and allowed its management. Fishing is predominantly managed by local angling associations. While I share Mr Canavan's concerns about access to fishing, I believe that protection orders can, if they are properly managed, assist in developing fishing and in allowing as many people as possible to fish.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will give the prices for my local association: £5 for a day, £10 for a week and £20 for a season. All that money is reinvested into the river.

That is the point: the Tweed protection order, about which there was considerable debate recently, has enhanced fishing and allowed its management. Fishing is predominantly managed by local angling associations. While I share Mr Canavan's concerns about access to fishing, I believe that protection orders can, if they are properly managed, assist in developing fishing and in allowing as many people as possible to fish.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1973E119P326C704067", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26603, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 11.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 11.0, "ID": 26603, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gorrie, Donald", "ID": 1973, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Donald Gorrie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Donald Gorrie (Central Scotland) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 57.0, "ContributionID": 704067, "EditedText": "I was busy doing my preparation at the 11th hour, which is, I am afraid, a bad habit of mine. I wish to raise my concern—this probably reveals my ignorance—about the wording of the schedules to the order on cross-border authorities. I have found that four of the schedules refer to the secretary of state, and, although I am not entirely sure, I assume that the references are, in one case, to the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and, in another, to the Home Secretary. The references are not clear in the schedules, although obviously they are clear in the acts that the orders will change. I suggest that, for the benefit of those of us who read documents at the 11th hour, the documents should make clear which secretary of state would be acting jointly with the Scottish ministers. The Lord Chancellor creeps into schedule 9, but I am not sure why—although I have nothing against him. We should try to be as clear as possible on the already slightly wavy grey line— which is like the River Esk—between Scottish jurisdiction and Westminster jurisdiction. Where does the Lord Chancellor come in? In schedule 20, which is about police information technology organisations, there is reference to a body that has three members, of whom \"(i) at least one shall be appointed by the Secretary of State; (ii) at least one shall be appointed by the Secretary of State after consultation with the Scottish Ministers; and (iii) at least one shall be appointed by the Scottish Ministers\". As a proportional person, I should approve of that. The schedule is trying to be fair, but is it not a bit confusing? Can we be as clear as possible in distinguishing between our remit and that of Westminster? Where documents refer to the secretary of state, can we be clear whether the reference is to the Secretary of State for Scotland, the Home Secretary or whoever?", "EditedTextHTML": "I was busy doing my preparation at the 11th hour, which is, I am afraid, a bad habit of mine.

I wish to raise my concern—this probably reveals my ignorance—about the wording of the schedules to the order on cross-border authorities. I have found that four of the schedules refer to the secretary of state, and, although I am not entirely sure, I assume that the references are, in one case, to the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and, in another, to the Home Secretary. The references are not clear in the schedules, although obviously they are clear in the acts that the orders will change. I suggest that, for the benefit of those of us who read documents at the 11th hour, the documents should make clear which secretary of state would be acting jointly with the Scottish ministers.

The Lord Chancellor creeps into schedule 9, but I am not sure why—although I have nothing against him. We should try to be as clear as possible on the already slightly wavy grey line— which is like the River Esk—between Scottish jurisdiction and Westminster jurisdiction. Where does the Lord Chancellor come in?

In schedule 20, which is about police information technology organisations, there is reference to a body that has three members, of whom

\"(i) at least one shall be appointed by the Secretary of State; (ii) at least one shall be appointed by the Secretary of State after consultation with the Scottish Ministers; and (iii) at least one shall be appointed by the Scottish Ministers\". As a proportional person, I should approve of that. The schedule is trying to be fair, but is it not a bit confusing?

Can we be as clear as possible in distinguishing between our remit and that of Westminster? Where documents refer to the secretary of state, can we be clear whether the reference is to the Secretary of State for Scotland, the Home Secretary or whoever?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C704072", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26603, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 11.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 11.0, "ID": 26603, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 68.0, "ContributionID": 704072, "EditedText": "I accept the minister's assurance; we will watch what happens. I made several specific detailed points. I should be grateful if Mr McLeish could pick them up at a later date; perhaps he could drop me a note.", "EditedTextHTML": "I accept the minister's assurance; we will watch what happens. I made several specific detailed points. I should be grateful if Mr McLeish could pick them up at a later date; perhaps he could drop me a note.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704077", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26603, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 11.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 11.0, "ID": 26603, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 78.0, "ContributionID": 704077, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C704081", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26604, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 26604, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ross Finnie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 87.0, "ContributionID": 704081, "EditedText": "I understand that the industry has made no claim of unfairness in relation to its ability to fish. The important point is that we are establishing an administrative boundary that must be part of a devolution settlement. We are not talking about questions of independence. The result is that the Scottish Executive has exclusive jurisdiction over all the sea that is closest to Scotland. Ministers will have responsibility for dealing with the waters that are closest to them. That is fair and reasonable. A third claim is that the fishing grounds have been handed over to England. That is not the case. The rights of fishermen are not altered by the order. After 1 July they will be able to fish exactly as they do today. The facts are relatively straightforward. The establishment of a boundary within the British fisheries limits east and west of Scotland is essential. By fixing the boundary, we can be absolutely clear about the scope that this Parliament has to regulate sea fisheries. Before devolution, many of the functions of managing sea fisheries lay with the four fisheries ministries. Those jointly exercised powers apply throughout the United Kingdom; the effect of the Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundary Order is that Scottish ministers in the Scottish Parliament can exercise exclusive powers over the zone, in the wider framework of the common fisheries policy. That means that the responsibility for regulating—I am told that this figure is absolutely accurate—the 127,231 nautical square miles has been transferred from the UK Government to the Scottish Parliament. I remind members that that relates to exclusive jurisdiction. It does not limit the ability of Scottish fishermen to fish within British fishing limits. I understand the genuine concern expressed by the Scottish Fishermen's Federation and other representatives. There is a worry that Scottish fishermen who are alleged to have committed an offence outwith the new Scottish zone and, in particular, within the area affected by the change, will be prosecuted in an English court. For the benefit of members, let me put that concern into perspective. No prosecutions have arisen in that area in the past three years—none at all. Indeed, the area is relatively lightly patrolled by the Scottish Fisheries Protection Agency. I find it incredible to believe that the passing of the order will lead to an outbreak of illegality by Scottish fishermen, nor do we expect any change in that patrol pattern. However, strong representations have been made to me on that point and strong feelings have been expressed by fishermen and their representatives. Accordingly, I intend to write to the appropriate ministers of the Crown, to explore with them whether any flexibility might be applied to prosecutions if any fishermen should change their habits of the past three years.", "EditedTextHTML": "I understand that the industry has made no claim of unfairness in relation to its ability to fish. The important point is that we are establishing an administrative boundary that must be part of a devolution settlement. We are not talking about questions of independence. The result is that the Scottish Executive has exclusive jurisdiction over all the sea that is closest to Scotland. Ministers will have responsibility for dealing with the waters that are closest to them. That is fair and reasonable.

A third claim is that the fishing grounds have been handed over to England. That is not the case. The rights of fishermen are not altered by the order. After 1 July they will be able to fish exactly as they do today.

The facts are relatively straightforward. The establishment of a boundary within the British fisheries limits east and west of Scotland is essential. By fixing the boundary, we can be absolutely clear about the scope that this Parliament has to regulate sea fisheries. Before devolution, many of the functions of managing sea fisheries lay with the four fisheries ministries. Those jointly exercised powers apply throughout the United Kingdom; the effect of the Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundary Order is that Scottish ministers in the Scottish Parliament can exercise exclusive powers over the zone, in the wider framework of the common fisheries policy. That means that the responsibility for regulating—I am told that this figure is absolutely accurate—the 127,231 nautical square miles has been transferred from the UK Government to the Scottish Parliament. I remind members that that relates to exclusive jurisdiction. It does not limit the ability of Scottish fishermen to fish within British fishing limits.

I understand the genuine concern expressed by the Scottish Fishermen's Federation and other representatives. There is a worry that Scottish fishermen who are alleged to have committed an offence outwith the new Scottish zone and, in particular, within the area affected by the change, will be prosecuted in an English court.

For the benefit of members, let me put that concern into perspective. No prosecutions have arisen in that area in the past three years—none at all. Indeed, the area is relatively lightly patrolled by the Scottish Fisheries Protection Agency. I find it incredible to believe that the passing of the order will lead to an outbreak of illegality by Scottish fishermen, nor do we expect any change in that patrol pattern.

However, strong representations have been made to me on that point and strong feelings have been expressed by fishermen and their representatives. Accordingly, I intend to write to the appropriate ministers of the Crown, to explore with them whether any flexibility might be applied to prosecutions if any fishermen should change their habits of the past three years.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1821E295P538C704082", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26604, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 26604, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Mrs Margaret", "ID": 1821, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Moray" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Margaret Ewing (Moray) (SNP) rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 89.0, "ContributionID": 704082, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1821E295P538C704090", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26604, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 26604, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Mrs Margaret", "ID": 1821, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Moray" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 105.0, "ContributionID": 704090, "EditedText": "Why then, in the remarks that he made before his reply to Mr Canavan, did the minister indicate that he was seeking clarification from United Kingdom ministers? Is not he asking our fishermen to accept what is, essentially— pardon the pun—a pig in a poke?", "EditedTextHTML": "Why then, in the remarks that he made before his reply to Mr Canavan, did the minister indicate that he was seeking clarification from United Kingdom ministers? Is not he asking our fishermen to accept what is, essentially— pardon the pun—a pig in a poke?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C704091", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26604, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 26604, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ross Finnie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 107.0, "ContributionID": 704091, "EditedText": "I do not think that my remarks are open to that construction, and I do not see how Mrs Ewing has come to that conclusion.", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not think that my remarks are open to that construction, and I do not see how Mrs Ewing has come to that conclusion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1821E295P538C704092", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26604, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 26604, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Mrs Margaret", "ID": 1821, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Moray" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 109.0, "ContributionID": 704092, "EditedText": "What about that scenario?", "EditedTextHTML": "What about that scenario?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1821E295P538C704094", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26604, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 26604, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Mrs Margaret", "ID": 1821, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Moray" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 113.0, "ContributionID": 704094, "EditedText": "In our waters?", "EditedTextHTML": "In our waters?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C704096", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26604, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 26604, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 117.0, "ContributionID": 704096, "EditedText": "Will Mr Finnie give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr Finnie give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2066E64P88C704098", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26604, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 26604, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McGrigor, Jamie", "ID": 2066, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie McGrigor", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Jamie McGrigor (Highlands and Islands) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 121.0, "ContributionID": 704098, "EditedText": "Will the minister clarify the position in relation to drift-net salmon fishing, which is banned in Scotland, but not in England? Will such fishing now be legal in the new waters?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the minister clarify the position in relation to drift-net salmon fishing, which is banned in Scotland, but not in England? Will such fishing now be legal in the new waters?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C704099", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26604, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 26604, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ross Finnie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 123.0, "ContributionID": 704099, "EditedText": "No. All the order does is to change the line of jurisdiction. It does not change that law. I understand that there are concerns, such as that raised by Mr McGrigor and others in relation to oil and gas exploration. However, as I have clearly stated, the fact is that the order relates only to fisheries. North sea oil and gas remain reserved matters, so they are not covered by this legislation.", "EditedTextHTML": "No. All the order does is to change the line of jurisdiction. It does not change that law.

I understand that there are concerns, such as that raised by Mr McGrigor and others in relation to oil and gas exploration. However, as I have clearly stated, the fact is that the order relates only to fisheries. North sea oil and gas remain reserved matters, so they are not covered by this legislation.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C704101", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26604, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 26604, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ross Finnie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 127.0, "ContributionID": 704101, "EditedText": "There are two reasons for that. There was no existing jurisdiction line.", "EditedTextHTML": "There are two reasons for that. There was no existing jurisdiction line.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C704103", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26604, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 26604, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ross Finnie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 131.0, "ContributionID": 704103, "EditedText": "No, there was no existing jurisdiction line, only habit and repute. The order is part of the devolved settlement. It was necessary to arrive at a line that established who had exclusive jurisdiction over Scottish fisheries and who was going to control what will now, in effect, become English fisheries. The line as I have described it means that all the water closest to Scotland will be under Scottish jurisdiction and all the water closest to England will be under the minister responsible for that fishing area. To me, that seems fair and reasonable. Oil and gas are reserved matters and are not covered by this legislation. I urge members to support the motion. The Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries Order 1999 defines the policy-making responsibilities of this Parliament and gives it authority in relation to regulating fisheries in accordance with the common fisheries policy within the newly created Scottish zone. It has no impact on the rights of fishermen to fish throughout the British fishery limits. I commend the motion because it recognises the importance of consultation in the future management of fishing. In that regard, I am happy to accept the points made in Euan Robson's amendment. I am not making just an empty pledge. Mr Home Robertson and I will meet members of the Scottish Fishermen's Federation tomorrow, so that we can begin genuine dialogue not only on the concerns raised by the order, but on the wider future of the Scottish fishing industry. I hope that this will be the start of an inclusive approach to fisheries management and, as I said at the outset, it is something to which I am committed. I invite the Parliament to join me in that commitment, and I commend the motion to members. I move,That the Parliament notes that — the Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries Order (S.I.1999/1126) in no way alters or restricts the freedom of the Scottish fleet to fish consistently with the Common Fisheries Policy of the European Union; from 1 July the Parliament will be charged with the responsibility of regulating fishing in the newly created Scottish zone of British Fishery Limits and fishing by all Scottish vessels no matter where they fish; consultation will be required with relevant bodies in the preparation of legislation relating to fishing in the Scottish zone.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, there was no existing jurisdiction line, only habit and repute.

The order is part of the devolved settlement. It was necessary to arrive at a line that established who had exclusive jurisdiction over Scottish fisheries and who was going to control what will now, in effect, become English fisheries. The line as I have described it means that all the water closest to Scotland will be under Scottish jurisdiction and all the water closest to England will be under the minister responsible for that fishing area. To me, that seems fair and reasonable. Oil and gas are reserved matters and are not covered by this legislation.

I urge members to support the motion. The Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries Order 1999 defines the policy-making responsibilities of this Parliament and gives it authority in relation to regulating fisheries in accordance with the common fisheries policy within the newly created Scottish zone. It has no impact on the rights of fishermen to fish throughout the British fishery limits.

I commend the motion because it recognises the importance of consultation in the future management of fishing. In that regard, I am happy to accept the points made in Euan Robson's amendment. I am not making just an empty pledge. Mr Home Robertson and I will meet members of the Scottish Fishermen's Federation tomorrow, so that we can begin genuine dialogue not only on the concerns raised by the order, but on the wider future of the Scottish fishing industry.

I hope that this will be the start of an inclusive approach to fisheries management and, as I said at the outset, it is something to which I am committed. I invite the Parliament to join me in that commitment, and I commend the motion to members.

I move,

That the Parliament notes that — the Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries Order (S.I.1999/1126) in no way alters or restricts the freedom of the Scottish fleet to fish consistently with the Common Fisheries Policy of the

European Union; from 1 July the Parliament will be charged with the responsibility of regulating fishing in the newly created Scottish zone of British Fishery Limits and fishing by all Scottish vessels no matter where they fish; consultation will be required with relevant bodies in the preparation of legislation relating to fishing in the Scottish zone.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C704104", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26604, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 26604, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ms Patricia Ferguson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 133.0, "ContributionID": 704104, "EditedText": "I now call Richard Lochhead to speak to amendment S1M-19.2 and then to move it formally.", "EditedTextHTML": "I now call Richard Lochhead to speak to amendment S1M-19.2 and then to move it formally.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C704106", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26604, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 26604, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ross Finnie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 138.0, "ContributionID": 704106, "EditedText": "In advancing the case that there are other opinions on how we might or might not address this matter, is Richard Lochhead suggesting that our methodology is unfair or inequitable? That is the important issue.", "EditedTextHTML": "In advancing the case that there are other opinions on how we might or might not address this matter, is Richard Lochhead suggesting that our methodology is unfair or inequitable? That is the important issue.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1990E181P340C704109", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26604, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 26604, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robson, Euan", "ID": 1990, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Roxburgh and Berwickshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Euan Robson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Euan Robson (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 145.0, "ContributionID": 704109, "EditedText": "I hope that the amendment provides an appropriate way forward that will assist fishermen and their organisations. It has been a cause of some frustration to a number of us that it has not been possible for this Parliament to change the boundary order and that we can only seek to persuade Westminster to do so. The intention of my amendment is to back the fishermen's case. I welcome the fact that it is now generally recognised that the consultation that took place before the order was laid and debated at Westminster was completely inadequate. That is a clear lesson for us to bear in mind in our proceedings over the coming months. It is particularly unfortunate that the lack of consultation affected the fishing industry, which feels that it has been badly neglected—almost ignored—for the past 20 years.", "EditedTextHTML": "I hope that the amendment provides an appropriate way forward that will assist fishermen and their organisations. It has been a cause of some frustration to a number of us that it has not been possible for this Parliament to change the boundary order and that we can only seek to persuade Westminster to do so. The intention of my amendment is to back the fishermen's case. I welcome the fact that it is now generally recognised that the consultation that took place before the order was laid and debated at Westminster was completely inadequate. That is a clear lesson for us to bear in mind in our proceedings over the coming months.

It is particularly unfortunate that the lack of consultation affected the fishing industry, which feels that it has been badly neglected—almost ignored—for the past 20 years.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7484974+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C704110", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26604, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 26604, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 147.0, "ContributionID": 704110, "EditedText": "I cannot quite understand why there was a difficulty at Westminster. There were elected representatives from Scotland—Liberal Democrats and members of the Labour party—on the relevant committee, and there was no time limit on its deliberations. Why was the order so badly debated?", "EditedTextHTML": "I cannot quite understand why there was a difficulty at Westminster. There were elected representatives from Scotland—Liberal Democrats and members of the Labour party—on the relevant committee, and there was no time limit on its deliberations. Why was the order so badly debated?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7484974+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1990E181P340C704113", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26604, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 26604, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robson, Euan", "ID": 1990, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Roxburgh and Berwickshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Euan Robson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Euan Robson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 153.0, "ContributionID": 704113, "EditedText": "I have almost finished.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have almost finished.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7484974+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C704123", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26604, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 26604, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 175.0, "ContributionID": 704123, "EditedText": "A number of members have indicated a desire to speak so, from now on, the time limit for speeches will be three minutes.", "EditedTextHTML": "A number of members have indicated a desire to speak so, from now on, the time limit for speeches will be three minutes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7484974+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1781E188P474C704125", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26604, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 26604, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McGugan, Irene", "ID": 1781, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Irene McGugan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Irene McGugan (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 181.0, "ContributionID": 704125, "EditedText": "I wish to speak in support of amendment S1M19.2. If this Parliament wants an example of how not to go about implementing a piece of legislation, this might be the perfect one. The order under discussion is illogical in its content and substance, and insensitive in the manner of its implementation. The current line that divides Scottish and English fisheries matters has effectively removed Scottish waters from the jurisdiction of the Scottish Parliament. This has been done by the inappropriate application of an international convention, with no regard to custom, practice or precedent—as we have heard. How can it be argued that there has never been a recognised fishery boundary between Scotland and England? By custom and practice, which is a principle well recognised in Scots and English law, the fisheries boundary between the two countries has for generations been drawn off Berwick North. The Scottish Fisheries Protection Agency and its English counterpart, the Royal Navy, have been operating to that line for years. Analysis of the usage of those waters shows that a preponderance of Scottish vessels operate in the area, which demonstrates Scotland's historic right to the fishing grounds in question. As we have heard, there is also a legal precedent that establishes Scottish jurisdiction over the area in question. That has been fully demonstrated in that, although there have been few criminal prosecutions, they have been brought before Scottish courts and enacted under Scottish law. The line has been and must continue to be recognised. When challenged, the Government has advanced no good reason and has satisfied no one with its explanation about why the line has been moved 60 miles. The decision remains unjustified and unjustifiable. The minister has claimed that, rather than lamenting the loss of 6,000 square miles, we should be celebrating the fact that 140,000 square miles have been transferred to Scottish jurisdiction. We may yet celebrate, because the Scottish Fisheries Protection Agency has confirmed in writing that those 140,000 square miles include the 6,000 square miles in question. That could be confusing—perhaps Lord Sewel got his figures wrong. It could be that the order is the cruel joke all of Scotland hopes that it is, and that the 6,000 square miles were never transferred from Scottish to English jurisdiction. Others have noted the future requirement for consultation with relevant bodies in the preparation of legislation relating to fishing in the Scottish zone. It would have been vastly preferable to have undertaken such a consultation exercise prior to formulating the order, when all the salient facts could have been clearly articulated, but there was no opportunity for that. The people of Scotland recognise that this is an unfair order. They would want the Scottish Parliament to confirm that the 6,000 square miles of sea should remain as Scottish waters, and that the boundary line should be reinstated where it was for hundreds of years. Scotland's democratically elected Parliament has not been re-established to condone, or implement by proxy, legislation that is unnecessarily confusing, detrimental to the interests of Scotland, and which is contrary to established practice and precedent.", "EditedTextHTML": "

I wish to speak in support of amendment S1M

19.2. If this Parliament wants an example of how not to go about implementing a piece of legislation, this might be the perfect one. The order under discussion is illogical in its content and substance, and insensitive in the manner of its implementation. The current line that divides Scottish and English fisheries matters has effectively removed Scottish waters from the jurisdiction of the Scottish Parliament. This has been done by the inappropriate application of an international convention, with no regard to custom, practice or precedent—as we have heard. How can it be argued that there has never been a recognised fishery boundary between Scotland and England? By custom and practice, which is a principle well recognised in Scots and English law, the fisheries boundary between the two countries has for generations been drawn off Berwick North. The Scottish Fisheries Protection Agency and its English counterpart, the Royal Navy, have been operating to that line for years. Analysis of the

usage of those waters shows that a preponderance of Scottish vessels operate in the area, which demonstrates Scotland's historic right to the fishing grounds in question.

As we have heard, there is also a legal precedent that establishes Scottish jurisdiction over the area in question. That has been fully demonstrated in that, although there have been few criminal prosecutions, they have been brought before Scottish courts and enacted under Scottish law. The line has been and must continue to be recognised. When challenged, the Government has advanced no good reason and has satisfied no one with its explanation about why the line has been moved 60 miles. The decision remains unjustified and unjustifiable.

The minister has claimed that, rather than lamenting the loss of 6,000 square miles, we should be celebrating the fact that 140,000 square miles have been transferred to Scottish jurisdiction. We may yet celebrate, because the Scottish Fisheries Protection Agency has confirmed in writing that those 140,000 square miles include the 6,000 square miles in question. That could be confusing—perhaps Lord Sewel got his figures wrong. It could be that the order is the cruel joke all of Scotland hopes that it is, and that the 6,000 square miles were never transferred from Scottish to English jurisdiction.

Others have noted the future requirement for consultation with relevant bodies in the preparation of legislation relating to fishing in the Scottish zone. It would have been vastly preferable to have undertaken such a consultation exercise prior to formulating the order, when all the salient facts could have been clearly articulated, but there was no opportunity for that.

The people of Scotland recognise that this is an unfair order. They would want the Scottish Parliament to confirm that the 6,000 square miles of sea should remain as Scottish waters, and that the boundary line should be reinstated where it was for hundreds of years. Scotland's democratically elected Parliament has not been re-established to condone, or implement by proxy, legislation that is unnecessarily confusing, detrimental to the interests of Scotland, and which is contrary to established practice and precedent.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7484974+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C704126", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26604, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 26604, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 184.0, "ContributionID": 704126, "EditedText": "In this new age of positive and consensual politics, will the minister, apart from addressing the many concerns and issues that have been raised in the chamber today, give us a clear outline of the benefits to the governance of Scotland's fishing industry that will arise from the new boundary?", "EditedTextHTML": "In this new age of positive and consensual politics, will the minister, apart from addressing the many concerns and issues that have been raised in the chamber today, give us a clear outline of the benefits to the governance of Scotland's fishing industry that will arise from the new boundary?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7484974+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C704129", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26604, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 26604, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 191.0, "ContributionID": 704129, "EditedText": "I am sorry Alasdair, I have only three minutes, so I will not give way. I believe that we should accept Euan Robson's amendment, which calls on the minister to meet the fishing leaders to discuss the issue in detail. Clearly, there are many differences of opinion on the implications of the new line. The minister must discuss the matter with the fishing leaders and listen to their concerns. Most important, if those leaders have genuine concerns, he must act as an advocate for the fishing industries and take the issue to the Secretary of State for Scotland, who, in turn, should take it to Westminster for a debate on whether the line should be altered. If the line needs to be altered, the minister must stand up for the Scottish fishing industry.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry Alasdair, I have only three minutes, so I will not give way.

I believe that we should accept Euan Robson's amendment, which calls on the minister to meet the fishing leaders to discuss the issue in detail. Clearly, there are many differences of opinion on the implications of the new line. The minister must discuss the matter with the fishing leaders and listen to their concerns. Most important, if those leaders have genuine concerns, he must act as an advocate for the fishing industries and take the issue to the Secretary of State for Scotland, who, in turn, should take it to Westminster for a debate on whether the line should be altered. If the line needs to be altered, the minister must stand up for the Scottish fishing industry.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7484974+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2117E79P104C704130", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26604, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 26604, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macdonald, Lewis", "ID": 2117, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lewis Macdonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Lewis Macdonald (Aberdeen Central) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 194.0, "ContributionID": 704130, "EditedText": "I agree with Alex Salmond that it is nice that the important issue of fisheries has the high profile that it deserves. I also agree with similar comments made by George Lyon. Two kinds of concerns have been raised duringthe debate on the Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries Order. First, there are concerns on the part of the Scottish boats that fish the Berwick bank, in particular about the alleged infringements that are being pursued in the English, rather than in the Scottish, courts and the likely expense that those cases might involve. Secondly, the Scottish Fishermen's Federation has raised reasonable issues—which were echoed by Dennis Canavan— about the different jurisdictions that apply when the oil and fishing industries share the same waters. Those issues deserve to be addressed. The fishing industry is entitled to a voice and, when its direct material interests are involved, it should be consulted and informed. For those reasons, I welcome the minister's commitment to meet the Scottish Fishermen's Federation, to pursue these matters with UK ministers and to examine ways of addressing the concerns—some of which have been raised today—about the jurisdiction that affects Scottish fishermen. Some of the rhetoric about piracy and theft that we have heard in recent weeks is less welcome. Even in the chamber today, we have heard that Westminster has stolen Scottish fishing waters from the Scottish fishing fleet. There is no shortage of serious and important issues that affect the Scottish fishing industry and there is no need to portray the important—but limited—issues that arise from this order as a matter of life and death for the industry. Of course, some people get excited about boundaries—regardless of whether those boundaries are on land or at sea or whether they affect the legislative competence of the Parliament—but to pretend that the whole matter is a gigantic conspiracy to run away with Scotland's fish does no favours to the Scottish fishing industry. There is something pretty bizarre about a nationalist party that objects to the use of an international convention, even if that party has the benefit of a last-minute legal opinion.", "EditedTextHTML": "I agree with Alex Salmond that it is nice that the important issue of fisheries has the high profile that it deserves. I also agree with similar comments made by George Lyon.

Two kinds of concerns have been raised during

the debate on the Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries Order. First, there are concerns on the part of the Scottish boats that fish the Berwick bank, in particular about the alleged infringements that are being pursued in the English, rather than in the Scottish, courts and the likely expense that those cases might involve. Secondly, the Scottish Fishermen's Federation has raised reasonable issues—which were echoed by Dennis Canavan— about the different jurisdictions that apply when the oil and fishing industries share the same waters.

Those issues deserve to be addressed. The fishing industry is entitled to a voice and, when its direct material interests are involved, it should be consulted and informed. For those reasons, I welcome the minister's commitment to meet the Scottish Fishermen's Federation, to pursue these matters with UK ministers and to examine ways of addressing the concerns—some of which have been raised today—about the jurisdiction that affects Scottish fishermen.

Some of the rhetoric about piracy and theft that we have heard in recent weeks is less welcome. Even in the chamber today, we have heard that Westminster has stolen Scottish fishing waters from the Scottish fishing fleet. There is no shortage of serious and important issues that affect the Scottish fishing industry and there is no need to portray the important—but limited—issues that arise from this order as a matter of life and death for the industry. Of course, some people get excited about boundaries—regardless of whether those boundaries are on land or at sea or whether they affect the legislative competence of the Parliament—but to pretend that the whole matter is a gigantic conspiracy to run away with Scotland's fish does no favours to the Scottish fishing industry. There is something pretty bizarre about a nationalist party that objects to the use of an international convention, even if that party has the benefit of a last-minute legal opinion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7484974+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C704133", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26604, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 26604, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 200.0, "ContributionID": 704133, "EditedText": "Before calling Mr Murray Tosh, I remind members that they should indicate if they wish to intervene during another member's speech—that is the courtesy that we are trying to observe in this chamber.", "EditedTextHTML": "Before calling Mr Murray Tosh, I remind members that they should indicate if they wish to intervene during another member's speech—that is the courtesy that we are trying to observe in this chamber.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7484974+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C704141", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26604, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 26604, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 217.0, "ContributionID": 704141, "EditedText": "Please finish, Mr Tosh.", "EditedTextHTML": "Please finish, Mr Tosh.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7484974+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C704142", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26604, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 26604, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 219.0, "ContributionID": 704142, "EditedText": "I hope that Mr Robson and other members will vote as the fishermen want and send the matter back to Westminster to be reconsidered.", "EditedTextHTML": "I hope that Mr Robson and other members will vote as the fishermen want and send the matter back to Westminster to be reconsidered.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7484974+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C704134", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26604, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 26604, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Murray Tosh (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 203.0, "ContributionID": 704134, "EditedText": "Like Mr Finnie, I am no expert on the fishing industry. However, I recognise a body of men who feel that they have a justifiable and substantial grievance. As a South of Scotland member, I had the privilege some weeks ago of meeting a number of representatives of the Scottish fishermen. They put to us the practical points that have been ventilated by many members this afternoon on legal jurisdiction and on the lack of consultation of fishermen's organisations by the gas and oil industries and the various utilities that lay cables. They also told us that, in the 6,000 square miles, they may lose the subcontracting work with the oil and gas industries that is currently restricted to them because of a non-poaching agreement with their English counterparts. Those were not party political points. They were the concerns and indignation of men who felt that their interests had been neglected and that they needed better representation. I submit that this Parliament should be treating those concerns with considerable respect. The essential question is that the Scottish fishermen were not consulted. They were not even given the information properly once the decision had been made; they found out almost by accident. That shows gross contempt. Whether it was deliberate or accidental, the Westminster members are responsible for that humiliating failure to consult. That poses some serious questions of this Parliament: what is our new Executive's commitment to the spirit of consultation that Mr Finnie mentioned at the beginning of this debate? The best way in which ministers can demonstrate their sincerity is by taking forward Mr Finnie's free and full admission that this matter has been handled very badly. They should go forward now as a united body to the Westminster Parliament and say, \"Look, we have fouled up. Someone got it very badly wrong. The fishermen have rumbled us and, as a united Parliament, we want to resolve the matter urgently before the new orders come into effect in a few weeks.\" There is also a point of principle about how we approach the people of Scotland. This is the first real debate that we have had about people's concerns and indignation at how they have been treated. How are we handling it? We are going to have a wee chat with them and draw their concerns to the attention of the Secretary of State for Scotland. That is not good enough. How will we treat the complaints, petitions and protests of our countrymen? They want something more substantial than that. We and the Executive have to respond. If the Executive is not prepared to treat this issue with the urgency and the seriousness that the fishermen tell us it should be dealt with, a dreadful message will be sent to the people of Scotland. Forget the politicians; listen to the fishermen who were in the gallery and who came to put these points to us.", "EditedTextHTML": "Like Mr Finnie, I am no expert on the fishing industry. However, I recognise a body of men who feel that they have a justifiable and substantial grievance.

As a South of Scotland member, I had the privilege some weeks ago of meeting a number of representatives of the Scottish fishermen. They put to us the practical points that have been ventilated by many members this afternoon on legal jurisdiction and on the lack of consultation of fishermen's organisations by the gas and oil industries and the various utilities that lay cables. They also told us that, in the 6,000 square miles, they may lose the subcontracting work with the oil and gas industries that is currently restricted to them because of a non-poaching agreement with their English counterparts.

Those were not party political points. They were the concerns and indignation of men who felt that their interests had been neglected and that they needed better representation. I submit that this Parliament should be treating those concerns with considerable respect.

The essential question is that the Scottish fishermen were not consulted. They were not even given the information properly once the decision had been made; they found out almost by accident. That shows gross contempt. Whether it was deliberate or accidental, the Westminster members are responsible for that humiliating failure to consult.

That poses some serious questions of this Parliament: what is our new Executive's commitment to the spirit of consultation that Mr Finnie mentioned at the beginning of this debate?

The best way in which ministers can demonstrate their sincerity is by taking forward Mr Finnie's free and full admission that this matter has been handled very badly. They should go forward now as a united body to the Westminster Parliament and say, \"Look, we have fouled up. Someone got it very badly wrong. The fishermen have rumbled us and, as a united Parliament, we want to resolve the matter urgently before the new orders come into effect in a few weeks.\"

There is also a point of principle about how we approach the people of Scotland. This is the first real debate that we have had about people's concerns and indignation at how they have been treated. How are we handling it? We are going to have a wee chat with them and draw their concerns to the attention of the Secretary of State for Scotland. That is not good enough. How will we treat the complaints, petitions and protests of our countrymen? They want something more substantial than that. We and the Executive have to respond. If the Executive is not prepared to treat this issue with the urgency and the seriousness that the fishermen tell us it should be dealt with, a dreadful message will be sent to the people of Scotland. Forget the politicians; listen to the fishermen who were in the gallery and who came to put these points to us.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7484974+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C704138", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26604, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 26604, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 211.0, "ContributionID": 704138, "EditedText": "It is the votes that count.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is the votes that count.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7484974+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704139", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26604, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 26604, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Several Members rose—", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Several Members rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 213.0, "ContributionID": 704139, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7484974+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1878E208P502C704146", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26604, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 26604, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Dr Winnie", "ID": 1878, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Winnie Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Winnie Ewing (Highlands and Islands) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 230.0, "ContributionID": 704146, "EditedText": "Most of the arguments have been made already, but I want to add that I feel sad that such reasonable men as the representatives of the fishing industry have been treated so unreasonably. They came here and met all the parties except the Labour party, which refused them a meeting. For them, that is another nail in the coffin. What has happened to open government? When the First Minister was criticised about that earlier, he replied by saying that he had sent out a press release. That is a disgraceful justification. I should like a copy of that press release and its distribution list—it certainly was not distributed to the fishermen.", "EditedTextHTML": "Most of the arguments have been made already, but I want to add that I feel sad that such reasonable men as the representatives of the fishing industry have been treated so unreasonably. They came here and met all the parties except the Labour party, which refused them a meeting. For them, that is another nail in the coffin. What has happened to open government?

When the First Minister was criticised about that earlier, he replied by saying that he had sent out a press release. That is a disgraceful justification. I should like a copy of that press release and its distribution list—it certainly was not distributed to the fishermen.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7484974+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2117E79P104C704147", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26604, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 26604, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macdonald, Lewis", "ID": 2117, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lewis Macdonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Lewis Macdonald rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 232.0, "ContributionID": 704147, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7484974+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1878E208P502C704148", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26604, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 26604, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Dr Winnie", "ID": 1878, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Winnie Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 234.0, "ContributionID": 704148, "EditedText": "I cannot give way because I have too much to say in too short a time. To bring in the European dimension for a moment, for 20 years I served on the European Fisheries Committee. At the moment, I am— technically, and will be for another month—the only UK vice-president of the Fisheries Committee. The last act of the late Dr Allan Macartney was to set a proposal on the regionalisation of the common fisheries policy before the Parliament. That proposal was passed with an overwhelming majority in the European Parliament. Therefore, this statutory instrument is totally against the trend in Europe. The Parliament is at present talking about reforming the whole CFP. That alone would justify scrapping the Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries Order 1999 and restoring the status quo. I am very proud to be a Scots lawyer. I am proud of Scots law, which is held in enormous repute throughout the world. I am proud that we have law officers of our own. Were the law officers asked to approve the order? Were they consulted; did they approve it? We are all entitled to an answer to that question. If the ministers who are present cannot answer it, perhaps we can get the answer later. There is no doubt about the custom and practice. There is no doubt that private international law starts at the Scottish border. That is internationally recognised. The remit of our police does not run south of the border and the remit of the English police does not run north of it. Our remit runs into what has always been regarded as our Scottish waters. That is not just custom and practice; it is a matter of court cases. We are the only European state with two distinct legal jurisdictions. If we are talking about applying international law, that simple fact must be taken into account, whatever lines are being drawn. It has not been taken into account. We have heard that two thirds of such disputes have not been settled by equidistance, and we have been given some interesting examples of that.I also have a question about motive for the Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs. Westminster saw fit to annex 6,000 square miles off Scotland's coast with no credible explanation. Is the motive behind that a belief that Scotland will soon be independent; could that be the real motive behind the whole sordid mess?", "EditedTextHTML": "I cannot give way because I have too much to say in too short a time.

To bring in the European dimension for a moment, for 20 years I served on the European Fisheries Committee. At the moment, I am— technically, and will be for another month—the only UK vice-president of the Fisheries Committee. The last act of the late Dr Allan Macartney was to set a proposal on the regionalisation of the common fisheries policy before the Parliament. That proposal was passed with an overwhelming majority in the European Parliament. Therefore, this statutory instrument is totally against the trend in Europe. The Parliament is at present talking about reforming the whole CFP. That alone would justify scrapping the Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries Order 1999 and restoring the status quo.

I am very proud to be a Scots lawyer. I am proud of Scots law, which is held in enormous repute throughout the world. I am proud that we have law officers of our own. Were the law officers asked to approve the order? Were they consulted; did they approve it? We are all entitled to an answer to that question. If the ministers who are present cannot answer it, perhaps we can get the answer later.

There is no doubt about the custom and practice. There is no doubt that private international law starts at the Scottish border. That is internationally recognised. The remit of our police does not run south of the border and the remit of the English police does not run north of it. Our remit runs into what has always been regarded as our Scottish waters. That is not just custom and practice; it is a matter of court cases.

We are the only European state with two distinct legal jurisdictions. If we are talking about applying international law, that simple fact must be taken into account, whatever lines are being drawn. It has not been taken into account. We have heard that two thirds of such disputes have not been settled by equidistance, and we have been given

some interesting examples of that.

I also have a question about motive for the Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs. Westminster saw fit to annex 6,000 square miles off Scotland's coast with no credible explanation. Is the motive behind that a belief that Scotland will soon be independent; could that be the real motive behind the whole sordid mess?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7484974+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C704149", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26604, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 26604, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 236.0, "ContributionID": 704149, "EditedText": "I call Mr Richard Lochhead to sum up in no more than three minutes.", "EditedTextHTML": "I call Mr Richard Lochhead to sum up in no more than three minutes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7484974+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C704151", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26604, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 26604, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 241.0, "ContributionID": 704151, "EditedText": "I call Mr John Home Robertson to sum up.", "EditedTextHTML": "I call Mr John Home Robertson to sum up.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7484974+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C704160", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26604, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 26604, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 260.0, "ContributionID": 704160, "EditedText": "Before we move to decision time, I ask Henry McLeish to move formally motion S1M-29.", "EditedTextHTML": "Before we move to decision time, I ask Henry McLeish to move formally motion S1M-29.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7484974+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704161", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26604, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 26604, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 262.0, "ContributionID": 704161, "EditedText": "Motion moved,", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion moved,

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7484974+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704162", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26604, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 26604, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 263.0, "ContributionID": 704162, "EditedText": "That the draft Scotland Act 1998 (Border Rivers) Order 1999, which was laid before the Parliament on 26 May, be approved.—Henry McLeish.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the draft Scotland Act 1998 (Border Rivers) Order 1999, which was laid before the Parliament on 26 May, be approved.—[Henry McLeish.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7484974+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C704163", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26605, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 264.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 264.0, "ID": 26605, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ms Patricia Ferguson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 266.0, "ContributionID": 704163, "EditedText": "I will put the questions on the three motions and the amendments to those motions that we have discussed this afternoon. The first question is, that motion S1M-28, in the name of Henry McLeish, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "I will put the questions on the three motions and the amendments to those motions that we have discussed this afternoon.

The first question is, that motion S1M-28, in the name of Henry McLeish, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7484974+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704169", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26605, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 264.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 264.0, "ID": 26605, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 277.0, "ContributionID": 704169, "EditedText": "That the draft Scotland Act 1998 (Cross-Border Public Authorities) (Adaptation of Functions etc.) Order 1999, which was laid before the Parliament on 26 May, be approved.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the draft Scotland Act 1998 (Cross-Border Public Authorities) (Adaptation of Functions etc.) Order 1999, which was laid before the Parliament on 26 May, be approved.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7484974+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C704170", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26605, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 264.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 264.0, "ID": 26605, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 278.0, "ContributionID": 704170, "EditedText": "The next question is, that motion S1M-29, in the name of Henry McLeish, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "The next question is, that motion S1M-29, in the name of Henry McLeish, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7484974+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704179", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26605, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 264.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 264.0, "ID": 26605, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 292.0, "ContributionID": 704179, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7484974+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704187", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26605, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 264.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 264.0, "ID": 26605, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 305.0, "ContributionID": 704187, "EditedText": "Motion, as amended, agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion, as amended, agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7484974+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704188", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26605, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 264.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 264.0, "ID": 26605, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 306.0, "ContributionID": 704188, "EditedText": "That the Parliament notes that — the Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries Order (S.I.1999/1126) in no way alters or restricts the freedom of the Scottish fleet to fish consistently with the Common Fisheries Policy of the European Union; from 1 July the Parliament will be charged with the responsibility of regulating fishing in the newly created Scottish zone of British Fishery Limits and fishing by all Scottish vessels no matter where they fish; consultation will be required with relevant bodies in the preparation of legislation relating to fishing in the Scottish zone and the Scottish fishing organisations have considerable concerns about the said Order; and calls upon the relevant Minister to (a) meet representatives of the Scottish fishing industry to discuss their concern and in particular their desire to re-establish the custom and practice of former years in regard to the east coast boundary and (b) convey such concerns to the Secretary of State for Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament notes that — the Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries Order (S.I.1999/1126) in no way alters or restricts the freedom of the Scottish fleet to fish consistently with the Common Fisheries Policy of the European Union; from 1 July the Parliament will be charged with the responsibility of regulating fishing in the newly created Scottish zone of British Fishery Limits and fishing by all Scottish vessels no matter where they fish; consultation will be required with relevant bodies in the preparation of legislation relating to fishing in the Scottish zone and the Scottish fishing organisations have considerable concerns about the said Order; and calls upon the relevant Minister to (a) meet representatives of the Scottish fishing industry to discuss their concern and in particular their desire to re-establish the custom and practice of former years in regard to the east coast boundary and (b) convey such concerns to the Secretary of State for Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7484974+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C704189", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26605, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 264.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 264.0, "ID": 26605, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr David Davidson (North-East Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 307.0, "ContributionID": 704189, "EditedText": "Madam Deputy Presiding Officer, I pressed my button very early on because I wanted to participate in the vital debate in support of our fishermen. I failed to be called; my button and light are still doing all sorts of wonderful things. I wonder whether I will appear on the record as having attempted to speak.", "EditedTextHTML": "Madam Deputy Presiding Officer, I pressed my button very early on because I wanted to participate in the vital debate in support of our fishermen. I failed to be called; my button and light are still doing all sorts of wonderful things. I wonder whether I will appear on the record as having attempted to speak.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7484974+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C704174", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26605, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 264.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 264.0, "ID": 26605, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 285.0, "ContributionID": 704174, "EditedText": "The result of the division is as follows: For 122, Against 3.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result of the division is as follows: For 122, Against 3.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7484974+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704176", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26605, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 264.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 264.0, "ID": 26605, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 288.0, "ContributionID": 704176, "EditedText": "That the draft Scotland Act 1998 (Border Rivers) Order", "EditedTextHTML": "That the draft Scotland Act 1998 (Border Rivers) Order

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7484974+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C704184", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26605, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 264.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 264.0, "ID": 26605, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 300.0, "ContributionID": 704184, "EditedText": "The question is, that amendment S1M-19.3, in the name of Euan Robson, be agreed to. Are we agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "The question is, that amendment S1M-19.3, in the name of Euan Robson, be agreed to. Are we agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7484974+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1956E45P71C704192", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26605, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 264.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 264.0, "ID": 26605, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Davidson, Mr David", "ID": 1956, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David Davidson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Davidson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 313.0, "ContributionID": 704192, "EditedText": "Thank you very much.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you very much.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7484974+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704044", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Thursday 3 June 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26602, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26602, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 2.0, "ContributionID": 704044, "EditedText": "THE DEPUTY PRESIDING OFFICER opened the meeting at 14:30", "EditedTextHTML": "[THE DEPUTY PRESIDING OFFICER opened the meeting at 14:30]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C704048", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Thursday 3 June 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26602, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26602, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 9.0, "ContributionID": 704048, "EditedText": "The member should be careful of using points of order as points of argument, but I indicate to him that the whole matter of parliamentary privilege will be considered by the Standards Committee prior to bringing forward recommendations on a code of conduct for members.", "EditedTextHTML": "The member should be careful of using points of order as points of argument, but I indicate to him that the whole matter of parliamentary privilege will be considered by the Standards Committee prior to bringing forward recommendations on a code of conduct for members.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C704053", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26603, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 11.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 11.0, "ID": 26603, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell (South of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 22.0, "ContributionID": 704053, "EditedText": "I repeat what I said yesterday afternoon when I responded to Mr McLeish about these orders. The SNP gives a general welcome to the orders and to the fact that they move forward the transfer of powers to this Parliament and to the Scottish Executive. I hope that that general welcome is accepted in the spirit in which it is given. One might call it the spirit of the new politics, although the fact that there is no common definition of the new politics seemed to affect yesterday's debate. Perhaps members could move towards making such a definition, rejecting Mr McAllion's definition of new politics as being about Opposition members simply keeping their mouths shut. The Opposition has a duty to welcome progress and to scrutinise in detail—", "EditedTextHTML": "I repeat what I said yesterday afternoon when I responded to Mr McLeish about these orders. The SNP gives a general welcome to the orders and to the fact that they move forward the transfer of powers to this Parliament and to the Scottish Executive.

I hope that that general welcome is accepted in the spirit in which it is given. One might call it the spirit of the new politics, although the fact that there is no common definition of the new politics seemed to affect yesterday's debate. Perhaps members could move towards making such a definition, rejecting Mr McAllion's definition of new politics as being about Opposition members simply keeping their mouths shut. The Opposition has a duty to welcome progress and to scrutinise in detail—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2080E130P217C704054", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26603, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 11.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 11.0, "ID": 26603, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lamont, Johann", "ID": 2080, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Pollok" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Johann Lamont", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Johann Lamont (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 24.0, "ContributionID": 704054, "EditedText": "WillMr Russell give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will

Mr Russell give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2080E130P217C704056", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26603, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 11.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 11.0, "ID": 26603, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lamont, Johann", "ID": 2080, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Pollok" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Johann Lamont", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Johann Lamont: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 28.0, "ContributionID": 704056, "EditedText": "Is Mr Russell prepared to define new politics as something other than mere abuse? It should involve listening to what people have to say in context. To be honest, new politics is not about people simply agreeing with one's views. It is about taking seriously what everybody has to say. That does not mean that debate cannot be robust. Mr McAllion's contribution was certainly robust, but it was also fair and hard- hitting. It is rather disappointing, therefore, that Mr Russell has taken only one phrase from it. That is not new politics; that is old abuse.", "EditedTextHTML": "Is Mr Russell prepared to define new politics as something other than mere abuse? It should involve listening to what people have to say in context. To be honest, new politics is not about people simply agreeing with one's views. It is about taking seriously what everybody has to say. That does not mean that debate cannot be robust. Mr McAllion's contribution was certainly robust, but it was also fair and hard- hitting. It is rather disappointing, therefore, that Mr Russell has taken only one phrase from it. That is not new politics; that is old abuse.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C704084", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26604, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 26604, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ross Finnie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 93.0, "ContributionID": 704084, "EditedText": "That is, as always, an interesting question. Mr Canavan has a fine record this afternoon of asking interesting questions. The issue that he raises is not a fisheries matter, nor a North sea oil matter, but a matter of accidents and would be covered by the existing legislation on accidents.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is, as always, an interesting question. Mr Canavan has a fine record this afternoon of asking interesting questions. The issue that he raises is not a fisheries matter, nor a North sea oil matter, but a matter of accidents and would be covered by the existing legislation on accidents.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1768E72P274C704060", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26603, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 11.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 11.0, "ID": 26603, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Murray, Elaine", "ID": 1768, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumfries" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Murray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Elaine Murray (Dumfries) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 39.0, "ContributionID": 704060, "EditedText": "I broadly support the Scotland Act 1998 (Border Rivers) Order 1999, although I take on board some of Mr Canavan's concerns. I am sure that we will be able to address those issues, as they affect not only the Borders but freshwater fishing throughout Scotland. I hope that today's debate will be less ill-natured than those of yesterday afternoon. We seem to have imported many of the bad habits of Westminster: butting in, shouting, waving our hands in the air and bobbing up and down like a river full of demented corks. We all said that we wanted the Scottish Parliament to display a new style of politics, so it is up to us to make that happen. I do not feel that we achieved it yesterday. I must confess that, at first, I misread the order and understood that it concerned the Border reivers, which might have been a little more colourful. However, the order is necessary because it outlines the joint responsibilities of UK and Scottish ministers and Parliaments in respect of rivers and estuaries that flow across the border between Scotland and England. It modifies the Environment Act 1995, which relates to the conservation, management and exploitation of salmon, trout, eels and freshwater fish. It requires agreement to be reached between Scottish and UK ministers and gives the Environment Agency new powers to make byelaws in connection with such matters. As Mr Canavan said, the order creates a new offence of unauthorised fishing in the Lower Esk that can be enforced by water bailiffs. Angling is a popular sport but it does not need to be managed for the sake of fish stocks. The order does not take away current legal rights to fish for salmon—I am sure that my constituents in the burgh of Annan, who were granted that right by royal charter by James V on 1 March 1538 will welcome that. The order refers to the burghers of Annan—however, those who make the excellent decision to visit that lovely and historic area should be aware that Annan is actually better known for the fine quality of its fish and chips than for its burgers. The order also clarifies the rights of Scottish fishermen to fish in any part of the Lower Esk that lies on or to the north of a line in the main channel of the River Esk that represents what is called the medium filum—which I presume is the mid-point— at low water. I am not sure whether that line in the middle of the Esk also defines the boundaries of my constituency. If it does, I will not take up any challenge from my colleagues to walk around the perimeter of my constituency. I commend the order to my colleagues in the hope that, in progressing these orders, we can press on with more exciting matters that pertain to the needs, desires and aspirations of our constituents.", "EditedTextHTML": "I broadly support the Scotland Act 1998 (Border Rivers) Order 1999, although I take on board some of Mr Canavan's concerns. I am sure that we will be able to address those issues, as they affect not only the Borders but freshwater fishing throughout Scotland.

I hope that today's debate will be less ill-natured than those of yesterday afternoon. We seem to have imported many of the bad habits of

Westminster: butting in, shouting, waving our hands in the air and bobbing up and down like a river full of demented corks. We all said that we wanted the Scottish Parliament to display a new style of politics, so it is up to us to make that happen. I do not feel that we achieved it yesterday.

I must confess that, at first, I misread the order and understood that it concerned the Border reivers, which might have been a little more colourful. However, the order is necessary because it outlines the joint responsibilities of UK and Scottish ministers and Parliaments in respect of rivers and estuaries that flow across the border between Scotland and England. It modifies the Environment Act 1995, which relates to the conservation, management and exploitation of salmon, trout, eels and freshwater fish. It requires agreement to be reached between Scottish and UK ministers and gives the Environment Agency new powers to make byelaws in connection with such matters.

As Mr Canavan said, the order creates a new offence of unauthorised fishing in the Lower Esk that can be enforced by water bailiffs. Angling is a popular sport but it does not need to be managed for the sake of fish stocks. The order does not take away current legal rights to fish for salmon—I am sure that my constituents in the burgh of Annan, who were granted that right by royal charter by James V on 1 March 1538 will welcome that. The order refers to the burghers of Annan—however, those who make the excellent decision to visit that lovely and historic area should be aware that Annan is actually better known for the fine quality of its fish and chips than for its burgers.

The order also clarifies the rights of Scottish fishermen to fish in any part of the Lower Esk that lies on or to the north of a line in the main channel of the River Esk that represents what is called the medium filum—which I presume is the mid-point— at low water. I am not sure whether that line in the middle of the Esk also defines the boundaries of my constituency. If it does, I will not take up any challenge from my colleagues to walk around the perimeter of my constituency.

I commend the order to my colleagues in the hope that, in progressing these orders, we can press on with more exciting matters that pertain to the needs, desires and aspirations of our constituents.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2188E70P92C704061", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26603, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 11.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 11.0, "ID": 26603, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harper, Robin", "ID": 2188, "PartyName": "Scottish Green Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Green", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robin Harper", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robin Harper (Lothians) (Green): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 42.0, "ContributionID": 704061, "EditedText": "Does the minister agree that, given that the Environment Agency south of the border can prosecute but the Scottish Environment Protection Agency cannot, it would level the playing field and give equal environmental protection to both the Tweed and the Esk if SEPA were given the power to prosecute?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the minister agree that, given that the Environment Agency south of the border can prosecute but the Scottish Environment Protection Agency cannot, it would level the playing field and give equal environmental protection to both the Tweed and the Esk if SEPA were given the power to prosecute?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1888E265P358C704065", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26603, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 11.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 11.0, "ID": 26603, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morgan, Alasdair", "ID": 1888, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Galloway and Upper Nithsdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morgan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alasdair Morgan (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 52.0, "ContributionID": 704065, "EditedText": "Like some of the previous speakers—and much to my surprise—I, too, am addressing the border rivers order. I had thought that the other order would have attracted a lot more attention. The border rivers order seeks to give a sensible framework to the regulation of the two cross- border rivers on either side of our country—the Tweed and the Esk. It may not be the most exciting statutory instrument that I have ever read, but it is certainly redolent of history. We have heard both the minister and Dr Murray mention the fact that paragraph 6(6) refers to the charter granted by James V to the burghers of Annan. The order shows that two different and legally separate jurisdictions can find an accommodation to deal with matters of common and mutual interest. That makes one wonder why some Conservative members believe that extending Scottish jurisdiction—which is what independence is, after all—would bring western civilisation as we know it to an end. The order makes reference to other acts, which in turn refer to further acts, so reading it demands a great deal of attention. I would be glad if the minister would confirm one of my interpretations. He alluded to the duty of the Environment Agency to lay reports before the Scottish Parliament, but will he confirm that, under paragraph 4(2) of the order, the making of byelaws for the Upper Esk— which for the majority of its length, beginning not far north from Scotsdike, is an entirely Scottish river—cannot take place without the concurrence of a Scottish minister? The order does not make that clear. I have one or two other questions of detail, which I am sure the minister will welcome. In the Lower Esk, the Environment Agency still has the power to grant licences to fish south of the medium filum. Medium filum means the middle; Brian Donohoe used it in a riveting adjournment debate in the House of Commons not long ago when he was talking about the fascinating subject of boundary walls. Can the minister confirm that the entire area north of the medium filum—that is, on the Scottish side—is allocated to existing legal rights to fish for salmon, and that there is no area north of the medium filum that is currently unallocated in respect of such rights? Can he also explain for the benefit of the curious why, if I understand it correctly—the logic of this escapes me, but I am sure that there must be a good explanation—the only people who can fish for trout north of the medium filum on the Esk are those who have the right to fish for salmon? It seems to me that the two species could be separated. Another subject that relates to the Esk, but is not directly dealt with in the order, is the shellfish fishery in the Solway. Recently, there has been a large increase in the number of people hand raking for mussels on the Solway. That practice attracts people from as far afield as Wales and Liverpool. There is some concern locally that the use of four-wheel drive vehicles is causing great damage to the foreshore and that the stocks of shellfish, particularly cockles, may be in jeopardy from that practice. Will the minister say whether he is considering a regulatory order for shellfish in the Solway? Finally, will the minister be tackling the situation regarding migratory fish in the Solway by means of an order, as was suggested by the Environment Agency last year? It is obviously sensible to have mutual arrangements for these rivers, which are very much a shared resource between the two nations of Scotland and England. We will not oppose this order, although we have some reservations about the fact that the vast length of the Esk will fall under the remit of the Environment Agency.", "EditedTextHTML": "Like some of the previous speakers—and much to my surprise—I, too, am addressing the border rivers order. I had thought that the other order would have attracted a lot more attention.

The border rivers order seeks to give a sensible framework to the regulation of the two cross- border rivers on either side of our country—the Tweed and the Esk. It may not be the most exciting statutory instrument that I have ever read, but it is certainly redolent of history. We have heard both the minister and Dr Murray mention the fact that paragraph 6(6) refers to the charter granted by James V to the burghers of Annan. The order shows that two different and legally separate

jurisdictions can find an accommodation to deal with matters of common and mutual interest. That makes one wonder why some Conservative members believe that extending Scottish jurisdiction—which is what independence is, after all—would bring western civilisation as we know it to an end.

The order makes reference to other acts, which in turn refer to further acts, so reading it demands a great deal of attention. I would be glad if the minister would confirm one of my interpretations. He alluded to the duty of the Environment Agency to lay reports before the Scottish Parliament, but will he confirm that, under paragraph 4(2) of the order, the making of byelaws for the Upper Esk— which for the majority of its length, beginning not far north from Scotsdike, is an entirely Scottish river—cannot take place without the concurrence of a Scottish minister? The order does not make that clear.

I have one or two other questions of detail, which I am sure the minister will welcome. In the Lower Esk, the Environment Agency still has the power to grant licences to fish south of the medium filum. Medium filum means the middle; Brian Donohoe used it in a riveting adjournment debate in the House of Commons not long ago when he was talking about the fascinating subject of boundary walls. Can the minister confirm that the entire area north of the medium filum—that is, on the Scottish side—is allocated to existing legal rights to fish for salmon, and that there is no area north of the medium filum that is currently unallocated in respect of such rights?

Can he also explain for the benefit of the curious why, if I understand it correctly—the logic of this escapes me, but I am sure that there must be a good explanation—the only people who can fish for trout north of the medium filum on the Esk are those who have the right to fish for salmon? It seems to me that the two species could be separated.

Another subject that relates to the Esk, but is not directly dealt with in the order, is the shellfish fishery in the Solway. Recently, there has been a large increase in the number of people hand raking for mussels on the Solway. That practice attracts people from as far afield as Wales and Liverpool. There is some concern locally that the use of four-wheel drive vehicles is causing great damage to the foreshore and that the stocks of shellfish, particularly cockles, may be in jeopardy from that practice. Will the minister say whether he is considering a regulatory order for shellfish in the Solway?

Finally, will the minister be tackling the situation regarding migratory fish in the Solway by means of an order, as was suggested by the Environment Agency last year?

It is obviously sensible to have mutual arrangements for these rivers, which are very much a shared resource between the two nations of Scotland and England. We will not oppose this order, although we have some reservations about the fact that the vast length of the Esk will fall under the remit of the Environment Agency.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C704066", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26603, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 11.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 11.0, "ID": 26603, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 54.0, "ContributionID": 704066, "EditedText": "At this moment, no members have indicated their wish to speak. Do any members wish to contribute further to the debate? Donald Gorrie has just indicated his wish to speak.", "EditedTextHTML": "At this moment, no members have indicated their wish to speak. Do any members wish to contribute further to the debate? Donald Gorrie has just indicated his wish to speak.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C704070", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26603, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 11.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 11.0, "ID": 26603, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Alex Salmond (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 64.0, "ContributionID": 704070, "EditedText": "The minister will remember that the Commission for Racial Equality wished to have its functions devolved, because it thought—rightly—that racial equality legislation might be stronger if dealt with by this Parliament rather than by the UK Parliament. That organisation was listed in the white paper in 1997, but has disappeared from the orders that we are debating. Will the minister refer in particular to the Commission for Racial Equality, because many people are interested in how this Parliament will relate to that organisation?", "EditedTextHTML": "The minister will remember that the Commission for Racial Equality wished to have its functions devolved, because it thought—rightly—that racial equality legislation might be stronger if dealt with by this Parliament rather than by the UK Parliament. That organisation was listed in the white paper in 1997, but has disappeared from the orders that we are debating. Will the minister refer in particular to the Commission for Racial Equality, because many people are interested in how this Parliament will relate to that organisation?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C704073", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26603, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 11.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 11.0, "ID": 26603, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 70.0, "ContributionID": 704073, "EditedText": "I will do that, but I will respond to some of the points now. Mr Gallie raised a concern about intrusive surveillance. The specific point was whether we have commissioners. Under the Police Act 1997, the Prime Minister appointed a chief commissioner and a number of commissioners to oversee the authorisation process, to give prior approval in certain sensitive cases to investigate complaints and to consider appeals. Both the chief commissioner and the commissioners require to be serving—or former—High Court judges under the terms of the judicial appointments act. The commissioners for Scotland are Lord Davidson and Lord Bonomy. A central support office, the Office of Surveillance Commissioners, supports the commissioners. There are support offices in London, Northern Ireland and Scotland. The Scottish support office function is provided by the staff of the police division at the Scottish Office Home Department. If any further information is required, I will be happy to provide it. Phil Gallie asked for reassurances about costs. I can assure him that the block will not be worse off as a consequence of anything that is happening here. This is about administration and structures. We have a devolution settlement and must define issues for the first time that we have not defined before, but I can reassure him that there is not a financial hit in relation to that. I was going to say that I will deal with Dennis Canavan's points, but that might be ambitious as I know from experience at Westminster that Dennis Canavan has a great deal more knowledge of this subject than most. On the order affecting the Solway, I cannot promise a debate on the wider issues, because that is not a matter for me. To quote a Westminster phrase, I acknowledge the matter and will pass it to the appropriate minister—Mr John Home Robertson—who is also in the chamber today, so he will take cognisance of this debate. Suffice it to say that under the section 111 order, the border remains the medium filum. However, the new offence is one of fishing without authority, wherever that fishing may have taken place. Scottish fishermen may fish from the north to the medium filum and English fishermen from the south, but now anyone fishing without authority—a legal right or written permission in Scotland, or a licence from the Environment Agency in England—is guilty of an offence and can be tried in court in Dumfries and Galloway, or in Cumbria. That in no way satisfies the other wider concerns raised by Dennis Canavan; I hope that they will be the subject of a more detailed response from the appropriate minister and department. Robin Harper made a point about the EA and the Scottish Environment Protection Agency. The two organisations have different responsibilities. SEPA does not deal with fishing anywhere in Scotland. District salmon fisheries boards do that job. I was grateful to my colleague Elaine Murray for her supportive comments; she represents one of the areas under discussion. We have tried to put conservation and the environment at the top of the agenda for this order. I hope that we have succeeded. Alasdair Morgan has a much greater knowledge of these matters than I do. I was deeply impressed—so much so that I do not think that I can respond to any of the particular points that were raised. I hope that that is a distinction for Alasdair. We have heard detailed questions surrounding an issue that is important to the members who raised them. There were questions on wider issues, but some of the details are germane to the upper and lower parts of the River Esk. I promise to have the appropriate department provide detailed answers to the questions. I should like to think that this has been a constructive debate, and I hope that it has been a model of how to debate serious issues and technical orders. I am given hope by the fact that—as Michael Russell said at the start of the debate—the SNP will not oppose, because that will take us forward to 1 July. Everyone in this chamber is looking forward to the time when we are not in transition, but are dealing with the big issues that affect Scottish people. I think that all of us are up for that.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will do that, but I will respond to some of the points now.

Mr Gallie raised a concern about intrusive surveillance. The specific point was whether we have commissioners. Under the Police Act 1997, the Prime Minister appointed a chief commissioner and a number of commissioners to oversee the authorisation process, to give prior approval in certain sensitive cases to investigate complaints and to consider appeals. Both the chief commissioner and the commissioners require to be serving—or former—High Court judges under the terms of the judicial appointments act. The commissioners for Scotland are Lord Davidson and Lord Bonomy. A central support office, the Office of Surveillance Commissioners, supports the commissioners. There are support offices in London, Northern Ireland and Scotland. The Scottish support office function is provided by the staff of the police division at the Scottish Office Home Department. If any further information is required, I will be happy to provide it.

Phil Gallie asked for reassurances about costs. I can assure him that the block will not be worse off as a consequence of anything that is happening here. This is about administration and structures. We have a devolution settlement and must define issues for the first time that we have not defined before, but I can reassure him that there is not a financial hit in relation to that.

I was going to say that I will deal with Dennis Canavan's points, but that might be ambitious as I know from experience at Westminster that Dennis Canavan has a great deal more knowledge of this subject than most. On the order affecting the Solway, I cannot promise a debate on the wider issues, because that is not a matter for me. To quote a Westminster phrase, I acknowledge the matter and will pass it to the appropriate minister—Mr John Home Robertson—who is also in the chamber today, so he will take cognisance of this debate.

Suffice it to say that under the section 111 order, the border remains the medium filum. However, the new offence is one of fishing without authority, wherever that fishing may have taken place. Scottish fishermen may fish from the north to the medium filum and English fishermen from the south, but now anyone fishing without authority—a legal right or written permission in Scotland, or a licence from the Environment Agency in England—is guilty of an offence and can be tried in court in Dumfries and Galloway, or in Cumbria. That in no way satisfies the other wider concerns raised by Dennis Canavan; I hope that they will be the subject of a more detailed response from the appropriate minister and department.

Robin Harper made a point about the EA and the Scottish Environment Protection Agency. The two organisations have different responsibilities. SEPA does not deal with fishing anywhere in Scotland. District salmon fisheries boards do that job.

I was grateful to my colleague Elaine Murray for her supportive comments; she represents one of the areas under discussion. We have tried to put

conservation and the environment at the top of the agenda for this order. I hope that we have succeeded.

Alasdair Morgan has a much greater knowledge of these matters than I do. I was deeply impressed—so much so that I do not think that I can respond to any of the particular points that were raised. I hope that that is a distinction for Alasdair.

We have heard detailed questions surrounding an issue that is important to the members who raised them. There were questions on wider issues, but some of the details are germane to the upper and lower parts of the River Esk. I promise to have the appropriate department provide detailed answers to the questions.

I should like to think that this has been a constructive debate, and I hope that it has been a model of how to debate serious issues and technical orders. I am given hope by the fact that—as Michael Russell said at the start of the debate—the SNP will not oppose, because that will take us forward to 1 July. Everyone in this chamber is looking forward to the time when we are not in transition, but are dealing with the big issues that affect Scottish people. I think that all of us are up for that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C704074", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26603, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 11.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 11.0, "ID": 26603, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 72.0, "ContributionID": 704074, "EditedText": "I remind members that rule 8.14.2 allows any member, without notice, to move early closure of debate. Such a motion can be taken only with the agreement of the Presiding Officer. I am minded to entertain such a motion, so that we can move on to the debate on Scottish adjacent waters boundaries.", "EditedTextHTML": "I remind members that rule 8.14.2 allows any member, without notice, to move early closure of debate. Such a motion can be taken only with the agreement of the Presiding Officer. I am minded to entertain such a motion, so that we can move on to the debate on Scottish adjacent waters boundaries.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C704076", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26603, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 11.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 11.0, "ID": 26603, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 76.0, "ContributionID": 704076, "EditedText": "Are we agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "Are we agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C704078", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26604, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 26604, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 80.0, "ContributionID": 704078, "EditedText": "The next item of business is the debate on motion S1M-19, in the name of Mr Ross Finnie, on the Scottish adjacent waters boundaries. Members will note that the amendment shown in the business bulletin in the name of Mr David Davidson has been withdrawn. In a moment, I shall ask Mr Finnie formally to move his motion and to speak on it. I will take the remaining two amendments to the motion in the order in which they appear in the business bulletin. I will then invite other members to speak. The debate will end at 5 pm; I ask members to keep their remarks reasonably short.", "EditedTextHTML": "The next item of business is the debate on motion S1M-19, in the name of Mr Ross Finnie, on the Scottish adjacent waters boundaries. Members will note that the amendment shown in the business bulletin in the name of Mr David Davidson has been withdrawn. In a moment, I shall ask Mr Finnie formally to move his motion and to speak on it. I will take the remaining two amendments to the motion in the order in which they appear in the business bulletin. I will then invite other members to speak. The debate will end at 5 pm; I ask members to keep their remarks reasonably short.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C704079", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26604, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 26604, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Rural Affairs (Ross Finnie): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 83.0, "ContributionID": 704079, "EditedText": "I am pleased to have the opportunity to move the motion. Before I refer to the important issues that it raises, I should like to make a few general remarks on fisheries in this, my first speech in my present capacity. I want to make it clear to the Parliament that I am aware of the importance of the fishing industry to the Scottish economy. Last year, landings in Scotland were valued at over £300 million, which represented nearly two thirds of the total value of landings in the United Kingdom. I also recognise that fishing is the economic mainstay of many fragile rural communities, especially in the Highlands and Islands. I want a modern, sustainable fishing industry in Scotland that will support those fishing communities. I want to involve the Scottish fishing industry in achieving that goal. From the outset, I want to make clear the importance that I attach to involving the industry. If the whole episode over this order has taught us one thing, surely it is that we cannot—as a substitute for real consultation and dialogue—rely on indirect communication through the issue of press notices and the like. What passed for consultation at Westminster will not suffice in this Parliament. I want to give a positive assurance that—certainly on matters in my domain—that will be the case. Furthermore, I do not have any difficulty with the principle that the Scottish Parliament should be able to request Westminster to reconsider a proposal that has already been before it. However, we should do so only when what is proposed, or has been proposed, by Westminster causes a material disadvantage to those affected by the proposal. In relation to the order, my difficulty is that reading of the facts indicates that they do not point to anyone having incurred a material disadvantage.The subject of this debate is a key element of the devolution process. Members have heard a great deal about the Scottish Adjacent Water Boundaries Order, but I regret that much of what has been said has been misinformed. I want to take the next few moments to stick to the facts about what is set out in the order. An example of that misinformation is, as I read or heard somewhere, that the boundary begins at Carnoustie: that is simply not true. The exact distance due east from Carnoustie to the boundary line is nearly 93 miles, or—as I understand some members are keen that it be expressed both ways—81 nautical miles. At its nearest point to Carnoustie, the boundary is closer to north Sunderland. The most important point is that it is also wrong to claim that a legally enforceable boundary line has been shifted. This is the first time that a fisheries boundary has been fixed in law. Before devolution, there were no Scottish fishing waters. There were only British fishing limits. The so- called existing line is simply part of an administrative arrangement within a UK-wide management regime. The boundary lines in the order are being drawn in accordance with international convention on such matters and—as members who have studied this matter will be aware—have involved the use of median lines. The net effect of that approach is that every point on the boundary line is equidistant from Scotland and England. All the sea in the Scottish zone is closer to Scotland and all the sea south of the boundary is closer to England. I find that approach to be demonstrably fair, reasonable and legally defensible. We are talking about an aspect of the devolution settlement.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am pleased to have the opportunity to move the motion. Before I refer to the important issues that it raises, I should like to make a few general remarks on fisheries in this, my first speech in my present capacity.

I want to make it clear to the Parliament that I am aware of the importance of the fishing industry to the Scottish economy. Last year, landings in Scotland were valued at over £300 million, which represented nearly two thirds of the total value of landings in the United Kingdom. I also recognise that fishing is the economic mainstay of many fragile rural communities, especially in the Highlands and Islands. I want a modern, sustainable fishing industry in Scotland that will support those fishing communities.

I want to involve the Scottish fishing industry in achieving that goal. From the outset, I want to make clear the importance that I attach to involving the industry. If the whole episode over this order has taught us one thing, surely it is that we cannot—as a substitute for real consultation and dialogue—rely on indirect communication through the issue of press notices and the like. What passed for consultation at Westminster will not suffice in this Parliament. I want to give a positive assurance that—certainly on matters in my domain—that will be the case.

Furthermore, I do not have any difficulty with the principle that the Scottish Parliament should be able to request Westminster to reconsider a proposal that has already been before it. However, we should do so only when what is proposed, or has been proposed, by Westminster causes a material disadvantage to those affected by the proposal. In relation to the order, my difficulty is that reading of the facts indicates that they do not point to anyone having incurred a material

disadvantage.

The subject of this debate is a key element of the devolution process. Members have heard a great deal about the Scottish Adjacent Water Boundaries Order, but I regret that much of what has been said has been misinformed. I want to take the next few moments to stick to the facts about what is set out in the order. An example of that misinformation is, as I read or heard somewhere, that the boundary begins at Carnoustie: that is simply not true. The exact distance due east from Carnoustie to the boundary line is nearly 93 miles, or—as I understand some members are keen that it be expressed both ways—81 nautical miles. At its nearest point to Carnoustie, the boundary is closer to north Sunderland.

The most important point is that it is also wrong to claim that a legally enforceable boundary line has been shifted. This is the first time that a fisheries boundary has been fixed in law. Before devolution, there were no Scottish fishing waters. There were only British fishing limits. The so- called existing line is simply part of an administrative arrangement within a UK-wide management regime. The boundary lines in the order are being drawn in accordance with international convention on such matters and—as members who have studied this matter will be aware—have involved the use of median lines.

The net effect of that approach is that every point on the boundary line is equidistant from Scotland and England. All the sea in the Scottish zone is closer to Scotland and all the sea south of the boundary is closer to England. I find that approach to be demonstrably fair, reasonable and legally defensible. We are talking about an aspect of the devolution settlement.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C704080", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26604, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 26604, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Alex Salmond (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 85.0, "ContributionID": 704080, "EditedText": "I am trying to reconcile Mr Finnie's last statement about the arrangement being demonstrably fair, and so on, with his first statement about consulting the fishing industry. The industry does not regard the settlement as fair. Did Mr Finnie consult the industry before making his statement about that demonstrably fair system? If not, how does he reconcile that with his pledge about consultation before statements?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am trying to reconcile Mr Finnie's last statement about the arrangement being demonstrably fair, and so on, with his first statement about consulting the fishing industry. The industry does not regard the settlement as fair. Did Mr Finnie consult the industry before making his statement about that demonstrably fair system? If not, how does he reconcile that with his pledge about consultation before statements?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C704093", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26604, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 26604, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ross Finnie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 111.0, "ContributionID": 704093, "EditedText": "That will be unchanged in terms of the law of accidents. It would depend on where—", "EditedTextHTML": "That will be unchanged in terms of the law of accidents. It would depend on where—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1888E265P358C704100", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26604, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 26604, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morgan, Alasdair", "ID": 1888, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Galloway and Upper Nithsdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morgan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alasdair Morgan (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 125.0, "ContributionID": 704100, "EditedText": "The minister has explained that the new line affects only fishing, but why was it necessary to have a different line for fishing? Why could we not stick with the existing line and apply it to fishing as well?", "EditedTextHTML": "The minister has explained that the new line affects only fishing, but why was it necessary to have a different line for fishing? Why could we not stick with the existing line and apply it to fishing as well?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1821E295P538C704102", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26604, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 26604, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Mrs Margaret", "ID": 1821, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Moray" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Ewing rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 129.0, "ContributionID": 704102, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C704117", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26604, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 26604, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Alex Salmond (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 162.0, "ContributionID": 704117, "EditedText": "I welcome the Minister for Rural Affairs—and, indeed, his deputy—to his duties. I also welcome his declaration of consultation, which would be a new and welcome practice for the fishing industry of Scotland. We intend, of course, to hold him to his words. It would make a good start, therefore, if he responded to the certain representations made by the Scottish fishing industry more vigorously than he did in his opening remarks. I have been a member of the Westminster Parliament for 12 years and I have attended and spoken in just about every fishing debate in the chamber of the House of Commons in that time. That puts me in a position to say that some things in the procedure that we are discussing are very good and very welcome. I cannot remember a fishing debate in those 12 years that was attended by more than about 20 people. We are usually called the usual suspects when we debate fishing subjects among ourselves, usually in November—", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the Minister for Rural Affairs—and, indeed, his deputy—to his duties. I also welcome his declaration of consultation, which would be a new and welcome practice for the fishing industry of Scotland. We intend, of course, to hold him to his words. It would make a good start, therefore, if he responded to the certain representations made by the Scottish fishing industry more vigorously than he did in his opening remarks.

I have been a member of the Westminster Parliament for 12 years and I have attended and spoken in just about every fishing debate in the chamber of the House of Commons in that time. That puts me in a position to say that some things in the procedure that we are discussing are very good and very welcome. I cannot remember a fishing debate in those 12 years that was attended by more than about 20 people. We are usually called the usual suspects when we debate fishing subjects among ourselves, usually in November—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7484974+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1990E181P340C704111", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26604, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 26604, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robson, Euan", "ID": 1990, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Roxburgh and Berwickshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Euan Robson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Euan Robson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 149.0, "ContributionID": 704111, "EditedText": "If I may take a charitable view of what occurred, the answer is that the committee concentrated on how the line should be drawn, not why there should be a line. I have found no reference anywhere to lines of custom and practice, or to the line that is clearly set out—as Richard Lochhead explained—in the Scottish Fisheries Protection Agency's annual report. With great respect to the minister, I believe that the practical implications of the new boundary are more serious than he has, perhaps, realised. I tend to prefer the view of the practitioners on the high seas to that of lawyers or civil servants. We have rehearsed quite fully the question of legal jurisdiction. That affects not only oil supply vessels, but ordinary vessels that are in transit through the area; it is my understanding that jurisdiction has been transferred for fishing vessels, but not for other forms of vessel. Fishermen are understandably concerned that, once they have been transferred from the Scottish fisheries protection regime to another regime, there will be subtle differences in the interpretation of even common regulations. I am pleased that the minister has said that he will seek help in this area, listen to the views of the industry and discuss with other ministers of the Crown how those differences can be minimised. Frankly, they could be minimised by redrawing the line where it was in custom and practice. I am advised—informally—by SunderlandMarine Mutual Insurance Company Ltd that there may be some difficulty with the lifting of wrecks, but that is a minor point. Another area of concern, particularly for my constituents, is the fact that in recent years it has been the custom and practice among the UK fishermen's federations that vessels out of Eyemouth carry out patrol or guard duty on oil installations. It is useful additional income for fishermen as it helps them to spread out quota across the year, but it could well be lost as a result of this order. I seek some assurances from the minister that he will address that issue with fishermen in Eyemouth. It would be difficult for them if they were to lose that income. There are serious problems—which Richard Lochhead clearly identified—not with the present regulations, but with future regulations. If a division is made along the boundary line that is described in the new order, a line is pushed straight through the middle of the Berwick bank fishing ground. There is clear concern that, in future—not at the moment—different types of regulation may apply on the two sides of this notable fishery, which is fished predominantly by Scottish vessels. I have not yet had an answer to the question on dredging for marine aggregates—there may be consequences for that too, although I stand to be corrected if that is not so. I have great difficulty understanding why international law is used to draw a boundary line in this context. Anyone who goes to Eyemouth will not find anybody who is in any doubt about where the boundary was, and I find it difficult that that was not appreciated and presented to the committee at Westminster. I am grateful that Ross Finnie seems to accept a number of the points that have been made.", "EditedTextHTML": "If I may take a charitable view of what occurred, the answer is that the committee concentrated on how the line should be drawn, not why there should be a line. I have found no reference anywhere to lines of custom and practice, or to the line that is clearly set out—as Richard Lochhead explained—in the Scottish Fisheries Protection Agency's annual report.

With great respect to the minister, I believe that the practical implications of the new boundary are more serious than he has, perhaps, realised. I tend to prefer the view of the practitioners on the high seas to that of lawyers or civil servants. We have rehearsed quite fully the question of legal jurisdiction. That affects not only oil supply vessels, but ordinary vessels that are in transit through the area; it is my understanding that jurisdiction has been transferred for fishing vessels, but not for other forms of vessel.

Fishermen are understandably concerned that, once they have been transferred from the Scottish fisheries protection regime to another regime, there will be subtle differences in the interpretation of even common regulations. I am pleased that the minister has said that he will seek help in this area, listen to the views of the industry and discuss with other ministers of the Crown how those differences can be minimised. Frankly, they could be minimised by redrawing the line where it was in custom and practice.

I am advised—informally—by Sunderland

Marine Mutual Insurance Company Ltd that there may be some difficulty with the lifting of wrecks, but that is a minor point. Another area of concern, particularly for my constituents, is the fact that in recent years it has been the custom and practice among the UK fishermen's federations that vessels out of Eyemouth carry out patrol or guard duty on oil installations. It is useful additional income for fishermen as it helps them to spread out quota across the year, but it could well be lost as a result of this order. I seek some assurances from the minister that he will address that issue with fishermen in Eyemouth. It would be difficult for them if they were to lose that income.

There are serious problems—which Richard Lochhead clearly identified—not with the present regulations, but with future regulations. If a division is made along the boundary line that is described in the new order, a line is pushed straight through the middle of the Berwick bank fishing ground. There is clear concern that, in future—not at the moment—different types of regulation may apply on the two sides of this notable fishery, which is fished predominantly by Scottish vessels. I have not yet had an answer to the question on dredging for marine aggregates—there may be consequences for that too, although I stand to be corrected if that is not so. I have great difficulty understanding why international law is used to draw a boundary line in this context.

Anyone who goes to Eyemouth will not find anybody who is in any doubt about where the boundary was, and I find it difficult that that was not appreciated and presented to the committee at Westminster.

I am grateful that Ross Finnie seems to accept a number of the points that have been made.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7484974+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C704112", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26604, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 26604, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie (Lothians) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 151.0, "ContributionID": 704112, "EditedText": "Will Euan Robson give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Euan Robson give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7484974+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C704116", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26604, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 26604, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 159.0, "ContributionID": 704116, "EditedText": "The debate is now open for discussion.", "EditedTextHTML": "The debate is now open for discussion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7484974+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C704143", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26604, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 26604, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 221.0, "ContributionID": 704143, "EditedText": "We are approaching the end of the debate. I ask members to stick to their three minutes. If they do not, I will have to switch off their microphones.", "EditedTextHTML": "We are approaching the end of the debate. I ask members to stick to their three minutes. If they do not, I will have to switch off their microphones.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7484974+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2100E64P254C704159", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26604, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 26604, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Home Robertson, John", "ID": 2100, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Lothian" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "John Home Robertson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Home Robertson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 258.0, "ContributionID": 704159, "EditedText": "I never thought that I would be accused of intemperate language by Mr Gallie, of all people. The Opposition is trying to crank up a non-existent debate. I give an undertaking to the industry and to fishing communities around Scotland that this Administration will take their concerns seriously. We will begin that job with them tomorrow. Our fishermen deserve much better than they have had in this debate. This Administration will take the interests of our fishing communities very seriously indeed. I commend the Government motion to the chamber. I urge members to accept the amendment moved by Mr Robson and to reject the nationalists' whingeing amendment.", "EditedTextHTML": "I never thought that I would be accused of intemperate language by Mr Gallie, of all people. The Opposition is trying to crank up a non-existent debate.

I give an undertaking to the industry and to fishing communities around Scotland that this Administration will take their concerns seriously. We will begin that job with them tomorrow.

Our fishermen deserve much better than they have had in this debate. This Administration will take the interests of our fishing communities very seriously indeed. I commend the Government motion to the chamber. I urge members to accept the amendment moved by Mr Robson and to reject the nationalists' whingeing amendment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7484974+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C704120", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26604, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 26604, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 168.0, "ContributionID": 704120, "EditedText": "Mr Salmond, could I ask you to wind up please?", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Salmond, could I ask you to wind up please?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7484974+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C704121", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26604, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 26604, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 170.0, "ContributionID": 704121, "EditedText": "My final remark is addressed to Mr Robson. According to the procedures of this Parliament, the vote on amendment S1M-19.2, against motion S1M-19, will be taken first. He and his colleagues will have the opportunity to support that amendment. If it fails, he can return to his own amendment. In other words, he can support the amendment in which he believes without jeopardising his own. I suggest that, for the benefit of the industry and for the reputation of this Parliament, that is exactly what Mr Robson and his colleagues should do.", "EditedTextHTML": "My final remark is addressed to Mr Robson. According to the procedures of this Parliament, the vote on amendment S1M-19.2, against motion S1M-19, will be taken first. He and his colleagues will have the opportunity to support that amendment. If it fails, he can return to his own amendment. In other words, he can support the amendment in which he believes without jeopardising his own. I suggest that, for the benefit of the industry and for the reputation of this Parliament, that is exactly what Mr Robson and his colleagues should do.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7484974+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2066E64P88C704122", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26604, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 26604, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McGrigor, Jamie", "ID": 2066, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie McGrigor", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Jamie McGrigor (Highlands and Islands) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 173.0, "ContributionID": 704122, "EditedText": "I support amendment S1M-19.2. As the fisheries spokesman for the Scottish Conservative party, I have recently met many fishermen from the east coast and the west coast. They are all very angry men, and I do not blame them. Recent events have been a slap in the face for Scottish fishermen. The extraordinary failure of those in power at Westminster to consult has been perceived as a colossal insult to the representatives of one of our oldest and most valuable industries. I recognise that the new boundary may be the median line between England and Scotland and that it has been drawn within the principles that govern the establishment of new sea boundaries between countries, but some thought must surely be given to centuries of history, convention and fishery practices. Scottish members at Westminster surely have a duty to protect the rights and interests of their constituents and, above all in this case, the members of the Scottish fishing industry. The statutory instrument that has caused all this bother was approved without the knowledge of, or consultation with, Scottish fishermen or their representatives or, for that matter, any English ones. Why was there no consultation and what were the Westminster parliamentarians thinking about? Did they honestly think that the removal of 6,000 square miles of traditional Scottish fishings amounted simply to what Donald Dewar called the tidying-up of boundaries in accordance with international law? Is that an example of open government by the party that champions that slogan? Is it an example of consensual process? On a scale of one to 10, how would members rate that? A resounding vote of nul points is echoing around the chamber. If that is open government, what is the alternative like? I know that the Scottish Labour party, the SNP and the Liberal Democrats were campaigning in the Scottish election—perhaps that is an excuse— but the Executive's motion is a smokescreen to hide the fact that it has sold Scottish fisheries and the fishermen down the river. Members of the Executive could not even manage to leak the information, which is odd for a party that is famous for its faulty plumbing. Is there some sinister reason why Labour is introducing a boundary that is based on international legal conventions when all that was needed was a clarification of the existing boundary? Although there is clearly a need for a geographical boundary to define the Scottish Parliament's area of legislative and administrative competence, it should have been based on existing custom, practice and precedent, after consultation with the fishermen. The current boundary, which has been recognised for centuries, is used by the Scottish Fisheries Protection Agency in its annual report. It is also used, as has already been mentioned, in the Civil Jurisdiction (Offshore Activities) Order 1987. The line runs due east from Marshall meadows. As we know, the proposed new English waters contain the prolific fishing grounds of Swallow hole and Berwick bank. Scottish fisherman can still fish them, but what happens if inshore waters regulations and EU directives are interpreted differently by the Scottish and English Parliaments? The new line bisects the Berwick field and a boat might have to change its gear halfway through a haul if it crossed the line. Ninety per cent of the boats that fish that area are Scottish but, if prosecuted for any misdemeanour or offence committed south of the line, they would have to face English courts and employ English lawyers. Henry McLeish stated that the boundary has no significance for other matters at sea, such as oil and gas, which are reserved. Surely there must be some doubt about that. Please let us be positive now and use common sense between our two Parliaments to sort the matter out. Let us use our new, devolved politics to address this wrong and to purge this insult to Scottish fishermen. I ask that the pre-existing line on the east coast be restored and I call on the Liberal Democrats, who support that proposal, to follow their conscience and principles and to vote with us to protect the interests of Scottish fishermen.", "EditedTextHTML": "I support amendment S1M-19.2. As the fisheries spokesman for the Scottish Conservative party, I have recently met many fishermen from the east coast and the west coast. They are all very angry men, and I do not blame them. Recent events have been a slap in the face for Scottish fishermen. The extraordinary failure of those in power at Westminster to consult has been perceived as a colossal insult to the representatives of one of our oldest and most valuable industries.

I recognise that the new boundary may be the median line between England and Scotland and that it has been drawn within the principles that govern the establishment of new sea boundaries between countries, but some thought must surely be given to centuries of history, convention and fishery practices. Scottish members at Westminster surely have a duty to protect the rights and interests of their constituents and, above all in this case, the members of the Scottish fishing industry. The statutory instrument that has caused all this bother was approved without the knowledge of, or consultation with, Scottish fishermen or their representatives or, for that matter, any English ones.

Why was there no consultation and what were the Westminster parliamentarians thinking about? Did they honestly think that the removal of 6,000 square miles of traditional Scottish fishings amounted simply to what Donald Dewar called the tidying-up of boundaries in accordance with international law? Is that an example of open government by the party that champions that slogan? Is it an example of consensual process? On a scale of one to 10, how would members rate that? A resounding vote of nul points is echoing around the chamber. If that is open government, what is the alternative like?

I know that the Scottish Labour party, the SNP and the Liberal Democrats were campaigning in the Scottish election—perhaps that is an excuse— but the Executive's motion is a smokescreen to hide the fact that it has sold Scottish fisheries and the fishermen down the river. Members of the Executive could not even manage to leak the information, which is odd for a party that is famous for its faulty plumbing. Is there some sinister reason why Labour is introducing a boundary that is based on international legal conventions when all that was needed was a clarification of the existing boundary?

Although there is clearly a need for a geographical boundary to define the Scottish Parliament's area of legislative and administrative competence, it should have been based on existing custom, practice and precedent, after consultation with the fishermen. The current boundary, which has been recognised for centuries, is used by the Scottish Fisheries Protection Agency in its annual report. It is also used, as has already been mentioned, in the Civil Jurisdiction (Offshore Activities) Order 1987.

The line runs due east from Marshall meadows. As we know, the proposed new English waters contain the prolific fishing grounds of Swallow hole and Berwick bank. Scottish fisherman can still fish them, but what happens if inshore waters regulations and EU directives are interpreted differently by the Scottish and English Parliaments? The new line bisects the Berwick field and a boat might have to change its gear halfway through a haul if it crossed the line. Ninety per cent of the boats that fish that area are Scottish but, if prosecuted for any misdemeanour or offence committed south of the line, they would

have to face English courts and employ English lawyers.

Henry McLeish stated that the boundary has no significance for other matters at sea, such as oil and gas, which are reserved. Surely there must be some doubt about that. Please let us be positive now and use common sense between our two Parliaments to sort the matter out. Let us use our new, devolved politics to address this wrong and to purge this insult to Scottish fishermen. I ask that the pre-existing line on the east coast be restored and I call on the Liberal Democrats, who support that proposal, to follow their conscience and principles and to vote with us to protect the interests of Scottish fishermen.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7484974+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2223E203P342C704124", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26604, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 26604, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scott, Tavish", "ID": 2223, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Shetland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tavish Scott", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tavish Scott (Shetland) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 178.0, "ContributionID": 704124, "EditedText": "As we are restricted to three minutes, I shall probably make only three points. First, I associate myself with the remarks made by Mr Lochhead and Mr Salmond in their introductions. They emphasised the importance of fisheries in Scotland and the opportunity that this Parliament will give the industry to raise issues that are crucial to my part of the world, Shetland, and to many other constituencies. It offers a chance for fisheries to get their point across and a chance for members to work with the industry to make a positive contribution to the future of a crucial Shetland and Scottish industry. I was intrigued by Mr Gallie's earlier intervention about Westminster. When I worked there as a humble researcher to my colleague Jim Wallace, I sat on the researchers' bench in the public gallery and watched that same Tuesday night debate at half-past 10, when only 20 members were present. It was not edifying stuff, and it did not do much for the way in which fisheries was presented. There were fishermen there from all over Scotland on that night, and they werenae very impressed by it either. We need to do a heck of a lot better than that, and I welcome the fact that so many members are still here. understand and sympathise with the utter frustration that the Scottish Fishermen's Federation and the fishing organisations feel at the lack of consultation on this issue. I welcome the principle of full and proper consultation before processes such as proposed works and proposed legislation come into the public domain. I encourage the minister to maintain that principle. It is extremely important that that happens. I agree with Mr Robson's case for the need to re-establish the east coast boundary in terms of custom and practice, and I will not rehearse his arguments or those of other members. I too heard the chief executive of the Scottish Fishermen's Federation on \"Good Morning Scotland\" today. He raised the important point that the UK Government proposals establish a position where a Scottish fishing boat on oil contract work is under Scottish jurisdiction, but as soon as it shoots its nets it is under English jurisdiction. The suggestion was also made that if a Scottish boat were prosecuted while it was south of the new line but north of the old, it would be under a Scottish court's jurisdiction. That drives a proverbial trawler through a square mesh panel. Why bother with the line at all? I do not see the need for it in that context. The suggestion was also made that this does not diminish Scottish fishing interests. Zonal regional management is a principle of Liberal Democrat fishing policy and that includes inshore regulating orders. It may be appropriate for other parts of Scotland to follow the good example of Shetland, where fishermen are working with conservation groups, environmental organisations and the local authority to build an inshore management regime. I hope that that model will be passed on to other parts of Scotland. In particular, that kind of regime might be appropriate to the part of Scotland that we are talking about today. I support Mr Robson's amendment because it provides fishermen with an opportunity to be consulted and for progress to be made on this important issue.", "EditedTextHTML": "As we are restricted to three minutes, I shall probably make only three points. First, I associate myself with the remarks made by Mr Lochhead and Mr Salmond in their introductions. They emphasised the importance of fisheries in Scotland and the opportunity that this Parliament will give the industry to raise issues that are crucial to my part of the world, Shetland, and to many other constituencies. It offers a chance for fisheries to get their point across and a chance for members to work with the industry to make a positive contribution to the future of a crucial Shetland and Scottish industry.

I was intrigued by Mr Gallie's earlier intervention about Westminster. When I worked there as a humble researcher to my colleague Jim Wallace, I sat on the researchers' bench in the public gallery and watched that same Tuesday night debate at half-past 10, when only 20 members were present. It was not edifying stuff, and it did not do much for the way in which fisheries was presented. There were fishermen there from all over Scotland on that night, and they werenae very impressed by it either. We need to do a heck of a lot better than that, and I welcome the fact that so many members are still here. understand and sympathise with the utter frustration that the Scottish Fishermen's Federation and the fishing organisations feel at the lack of consultation on this issue. I welcome the principle of full and proper consultation before processes such as proposed works and proposed legislation come into the public domain. I encourage the minister to maintain that principle. It is extremely important that that happens.

I agree with Mr Robson's case for the need to re-establish the east coast boundary in terms of custom and practice, and I will not rehearse his arguments or those of other members. I too heard the chief executive of the Scottish Fishermen's Federation on \"Good Morning Scotland\" today. He raised the important point that the UK Government proposals establish a position where a Scottish fishing boat on oil contract work is under Scottish jurisdiction, but as soon as it shoots its nets it is under English jurisdiction. The suggestion was also made that if a Scottish boat were prosecuted while it was south of the new line but north of the old, it would be under a Scottish court's jurisdiction. That drives a proverbial trawler through a square mesh panel. Why bother with the line at all? I do not see the need for it in that context.

The suggestion was also made that this does not diminish Scottish fishing interests. Zonal regional management is a principle of Liberal Democrat fishing policy and that includes inshore regulating orders. It may be appropriate for other parts of Scotland to follow the good example of Shetland, where fishermen are working with conservation groups, environmental organisations and the local authority to build an inshore management regime. I hope that that model will be passed on to other parts of Scotland. In particular, that kind of regime might be appropriate to the part of Scotland that we are talking about today.

I support Mr Robson's amendment because it provides fishermen with an opportunity to be consulted and for progress to be made on this important issue.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7484974+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2117E79P104C704132", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26604, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 26604, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macdonald, Lewis", "ID": 2117, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lewis Macdonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Lewis Macdonald: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 198.0, "ContributionID": 704132, "EditedText": "The point that I throw back to Richard Lochhead is that the SNP, as a party that is committed to Scottish independence, comes before the Parliament and says, \"Here is a boundary line, drawn up in accordance with international conventions on a median boundary\"—MEMBERS: \"No, the Government says that.\" The SNP produced a legal opinion but, until it is tested in court, it is only an opinion. I hope that the fishing boundary between Scotland and England is never tested in an international court, because that would do more damage to Scottish fishing than anything that we are discussing today. I am interested to know whether the SNP's proposition is to revert to the line due east of Berwick and to continue to campaign for independence. The likely outcome of that would be that a median line such as the one that is now in force would be drawn. We should listen to the Scottish Fishermen's Federation and we should welcome the minister's offer to take this matter up at the appropriate level. We should also ask ministers to make a distinction between the real concerns of our fishing communities and the party political advantage that some people are trying to make.", "EditedTextHTML": "The point that I throw back to Richard Lochhead is that the SNP, as a party that is committed to Scottish independence, comes before the Parliament and says, \"Here is a boundary line, drawn up in accordance with international conventions on a median boundary\"—[MEMBERS: \"No, the Government says that.\"] The SNP produced a legal opinion but, until it is tested in court, it is only an opinion. I hope that the fishing boundary between Scotland and England is never tested in an international court, because that would do more damage to Scottish fishing than anything that we are discussing today.

I am interested to know whether the SNP's proposition is to revert to the line due east of Berwick and to continue to campaign for independence. The likely outcome of that would be that a median line such as the one that is now in force would be drawn.

We should listen to the Scottish Fishermen's Federation and we should welcome the minister's offer to take this matter up at the appropriate level. We should also ask ministers to make a distinction between the real concerns of our fishing communities and the party political advantage that some people are trying to make.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7484974+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C704136", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26604, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 26604, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 207.0, "ContributionID": 704136, "EditedText": "This is also an important test of the politics of our new Government, which said that it wanted to be inclusive. Let us include the fishermen. It is also an important test of the resolve of Liberal members. Mr Robson spoke in favour of the amendment in Mr Salmond's name. No doubt Mr Robson's press release in his constituency next week will reflect what he said this afternoon. I tell Mr Robson that we will make sure that his constituents also know how he voted.", "EditedTextHTML": "This is also an important test of the politics of our new Government, which said that it wanted to be inclusive. Let us include the fishermen. It is also an important test of the resolve of Liberal members. Mr Robson spoke in favour of the amendment in Mr Salmond's name. No doubt Mr Robson's press release in his constituency next week will reflect what he said this afternoon. I tell Mr Robson that we will make sure that his constituents also know how he voted.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7484974+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2148E33P57C704140", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26604, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 26604, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Tosh, Murray", "ID": 2148, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Murray Tosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tosh: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 215.0, "ContributionID": 704140, "EditedText": "I am sorry. I would have loved to debate the matter at greater length. Mr Robson should be aware that there is a very important point of principle. He bravely laid his cards on the table.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry. I would have loved to debate the matter at greater length.

Mr Robson should be aware that there is a very important point of principle. He bravely laid his cards on the table.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7484974+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2068E171P304C704145", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26604, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 26604, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Stone, Jamie", "ID": 2068, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jamie Stone", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 227.0, "ContributionID": 704145, "EditedText": "I may be the only member of the Parliament who has worked in a fish factory, so I have a slight knowledge of the industry. Mr Hamish Morrison is not given to overstatement. He does not write letters simply for fun, and I take his points seriously. I should like to associate myself with the remarks of Mr Salmond and Mr Robson. We have a problem and we know it. Time and again, fishermen have told me that they feel that we do not listen, that we neither know nor care about their problems. Today we have an opportunity, in supporting Mr Robson's amendment, to show that we shall listen and engage in a dialogue, and that we will start a new kind of inclusive politics in Scotland. I believe that we must take that step today. We must send out the message, loud and clear, that we understand what they are saying, that we will listen to them, that we will work with them and that we shall go on to sort out the problem. This is an acid test on where we stand in relation to Westminster as a Parliament. If it is to be the case that we sit on our hands and never say boo to a goose, that is an unhappy message to send out to Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "I may be the only member of the Parliament who has worked in a fish factory, so I have a slight knowledge of the industry.

Mr Hamish Morrison is not given to overstatement. He does not write letters simply for fun, and I take his points seriously. I should like to associate myself with the remarks of Mr Salmond and Mr Robson. We have a problem and we know it.

Time and again, fishermen have told me that they feel that we do not listen, that we neither know nor care about their problems. Today we have an opportunity, in supporting Mr Robson's amendment, to show that we shall listen and engage in a dialogue, and that we will start a new kind of inclusive politics in Scotland. I believe that we must take that step today. We must send out the message, loud and clear, that we understand what they are saying, that we will listen to them, that we will work with them and that we shall go on to sort out the problem.

This is an acid test on where we stand in relation to Westminster as a Parliament. If it is to be the case that we sit on our hands and never say boo to a goose, that is an unhappy message to send out to Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7484974+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C704153", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26604, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 26604, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 246.0, "ContributionID": 704153, "EditedText": "You have five minutes.", "EditedTextHTML": "You have five minutes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7484974+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C704158", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26604, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 26604, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 256.0, "ContributionID": 704158, "EditedText": "I am always grateful to members who support the position of the Presiding Officer and his deputies, but we can usually cope on our own.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am always grateful to members who support the position of the Presiding Officer and his deputies, but we can usually cope on our own.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7484974+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704164", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26605, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 264.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 264.0, "ID": 26605, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 268.0, "ContributionID": 704164, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7484974+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C704165", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26605, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 264.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 264.0, "ID": 26605, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 270.0, "ContributionID": 704165, "EditedText": "We will therefore have a division.", "EditedTextHTML": "We will therefore have a division.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7484974+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C704167", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26605, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 264.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 264.0, "ID": 26605, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 274.0, "ContributionID": 704167, "EditedText": "I presume that members read their business list and so are familiar with the business to be discussed. However, in the interests of the chamber, I will put the question again. This time, will members please indicate clearly whether they are minded to accept the motion? The first question is, that motion S1M-28, in the name of Henry McLeish, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "I presume that members read their business list and so are familiar with the business to be discussed. However, in the interests of the chamber, I will put the question again. This time, will members please indicate clearly whether they are minded to accept the motion?

The first question is, that motion S1M-28, in the name of Henry McLeish, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7484974+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704168", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26605, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 264.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 264.0, "ID": 26605, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 276.0, "ContributionID": 704168, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7484974+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704171", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26605, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 264.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 264.0, "ID": 26605, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 280.0, "ContributionID": 704171, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7484974+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C704180", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26605, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 264.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 264.0, "ID": 26605, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 294.0, "ContributionID": 704180, "EditedText": "In that case we will move to a division. Members should vote yes to agree to the amendment and no to disagree to the amendment; abstentions should also be recorded. Members will have 30 seconds in which to vote.", "EditedTextHTML": "In that case we will move to a division.

Members should vote yes to agree to the amendment and no to disagree to the amendment; abstentions should also be recorded. Members will have 30 seconds in which to vote.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7484974+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704173", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26605, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 264.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 264.0, "ID": 26605, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 284.0, "ContributionID": 704173, "EditedText": "FOR Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Crawford, Bruce JP (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)Mackay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)(LD)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)AGAINST Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Crawford, Bruce JP (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Mackay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)
(LD)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)

AGAINST

Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7484974+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704177", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26605, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 264.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 264.0, "ID": 26605, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 289.0, "ContributionID": 704177, "EditedText": "1999, which was laid before the Parliament on 26 May, be approved.", "EditedTextHTML": "1999, which was laid before the Parliament on 26 May, be approved.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7484974+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704183", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26605, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 264.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 264.0, "ID": 26605, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 299.0, "ContributionID": 704183, "EditedText": "Amendment disagreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment disagreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7484974+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704185", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26605, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 264.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 264.0, "ID": 26605, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 302.0, "ContributionID": 704185, "EditedText": "Amendment agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7484974+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C704190", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26605, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 264.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 264.0, "ID": 26605, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Alex Salmond (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 309.0, "ContributionID": 704190, "EditedText": "He will now.", "EditedTextHTML": "

He will now.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7484974+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C704191", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26605, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 264.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 264.0, "ID": 26605, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 311.0, "ContributionID": 704191, "EditedText": "As a rule, we do not publish the names of those who wanted to speak but did not. However, Mr Davidson has now spoken in the debate, so his name will be recorded.", "EditedTextHTML": "As a rule, we do not publish the names of those who wanted to speak but did not. However, Mr Davidson has now spoken in the debate, so his name will be recorded.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7484974+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2180E179P471C704131", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26604, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 79.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 79.0, "ID": 26604, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lochhead, Richard", "ID": 2180, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Lochhead", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Richard Lochhead: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 196.0, "ContributionID": 704131, "EditedText": "Does Lewis Macdonald accept that much of the concern is not just about jurisdiction, but about the fact that Westminster felt it necessary to shift the boundary in the first place?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does Lewis Macdonald accept that much of the concern is not just about jurisdiction, but about the fact that Westminster felt it necessary to shift the boundary in the first place?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:55.929179+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C704047", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 03 Jun 1999", "ID": 4165 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-03T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Thursday 3 June 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26602, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26602, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 7.0, "ContributionID": 704047, "EditedText": "May I too seek some procedural advice from you? Yesterday a number of us pressed the Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning on the issue of the publication of concordats. We were told that it was unclear when they would be published. This morning, I read in The Herald details about one of the concordats, in relation to the Foreign and Commonwealth Office—a concordat and gentleman's agreement between the First Minister and the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs. What procedural advice can you give me about how this matter can be addressed and how this Parliament can be treated with more respect and courtesy than the contempt it is receiving from the Executive?", "EditedTextHTML": "May I too seek some procedural advice from you? Yesterday a number of us pressed the Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning on the issue of the publication of concordats. We were told that it was unclear when they would be published. This morning, I read in The Herald details about one of the concordats, in relation to the Foreign and Commonwealth Office—a concordat and gentleman's agreement between the First Minister and the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs. What procedural advice can you give me about how this matter can be addressed and how this Parliament can be treated with more respect and courtesy than the contempt it is receiving from the Executive?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:24:23.6870353+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C703955", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 109.0, "ContributionID": 703955, "EditedText": "I would like to make a point not of substance but of form. The orders are not open to amendment and members are required to vote for each of them in their entirety. Does Mr McLeish think it desirable that an order should deal with issues that are essentially unrelated? Article 5 of the order that is currently under discussion deals with a proposed addition to the reserved powers under the Scotland Act 1998. Can he reassure members that, in the unlikely event that the Executive proposes further additions to the reserved powers, or, in other words, proposes the removal of powers from the Parliament, it will not do so under the cover of other matters and that members will be able to vote on such issues separately?", "EditedTextHTML": "I would like to make a point not of substance but of form. The orders are not open to amendment and members are required to vote for each of them in their entirety. Does Mr McLeish think it desirable that an order should deal with issues that are essentially unrelated? Article 5 of the order that is currently under discussion deals with a proposed addition to the reserved powers under the Scotland Act 1998. Can he reassure members that, in the unlikely event that the Executive proposes further additions to the reserved powers, or, in other words, proposes the removal of powers from the Parliament, it will not do so under the cover of other matters and that members will be able to vote on such issues separately?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:00:50.3207435+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2180E179P471C703992", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lochhead, Richard", "ID": 2180, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Lochhead", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Richard Lochhead rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 193.0, "ContributionID": 703992, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:44.0221047+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703889", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Wednesday 2 June 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26597, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26597, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 5.0, "ContributionID": 703889, "EditedText": "We cannot hear.", "EditedTextHTML": "We cannot hear.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703892", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Wednesday 2 June 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26597, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26597, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 10.0, "ContributionID": 703892, "EditedText": "On resuming—", "EditedTextHTML": "On resuming—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C703894", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Kenny Macintyre", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26598, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 26598, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr George Reid (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 16.0, "ContributionID": 703894, "EditedText": "This week, with the death of Kenny Macintyre, this Parliament and its press gallery lost a good friend and a fine broadcaster. Scotland has lost a unique voice—a voice that would have reported and interpreted our proceedings like no other. The tragedy is that Kenny, who awaited this Parliament with such expectation for so long, has left it so suddenly and so soon. All of us who were privileged to work with Kenny, be it in the BBC newsroom or the hurlyburly of politics, know that he was a man with all the qualities of a great reporter: informed judgment; independence of mind; quite extraordinary perseverance in pursuit of a story; an ability, despite his frenetic flurry of activity, always to meet his deadlines; and a contacts book without equal. This Parliament will wish to record its appreciation of a life well lived in public service and to convey to Kenny's family and widow, who are with us today, our respect, condolences and deep sympathy. Finally, I propose to the Parliament that, as a permanent memorial, the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body should institute, in conjunction with his family and with press colleagues, the Kenny Macintyre annual award, to be given to the press or broadcasting journalist who has provided the best coverage of our proceedings. That would help to recognise in others some of the unique qualities that Kenny brought to his trade. Applause.", "EditedTextHTML": "This week, with the death of Kenny Macintyre, this Parliament and its press gallery lost a good friend and a fine broadcaster. Scotland has lost a unique voice—a voice that would have reported and interpreted our proceedings like no other. The tragedy is that Kenny, who awaited this Parliament with such expectation for so long, has left it so suddenly and so soon.

All of us who were privileged to work with Kenny, be it in the BBC newsroom or the hurlyburly of politics, know that he was a man with all the qualities of a great reporter: informed judgment; independence of mind; quite extraordinary perseverance in pursuit of a story; an ability, despite his frenetic flurry of activity, always to meet his deadlines; and a contacts book without equal. This Parliament will wish to record its appreciation of a life well lived in public service and to convey to Kenny's family and widow, who are with us today, our respect, condolences and deep sympathy.

Finally, I propose to the Parliament that, as a permanent memorial, the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body should institute, in conjunction with his family and with press colleagues, the Kenny Macintyre annual award, to be given to the press or broadcasting journalist who has provided the best coverage of our proceedings. That would help to recognise in others some of the unique qualities that Kenny brought to his trade. [Applause.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C703895", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Kenny Macintyre", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26598, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 26598, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ms Patricia Ferguson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 18.0, "ContributionID": 703895, "EditedText": "Are members in agreement with Mr Reid's proposal?", "EditedTextHTML": "Are members in agreement with Mr Reid's proposal?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C703897", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Kenny Macintyre", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26598, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 26598, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 22.0, "ContributionID": 703897, "EditedText": "Thank you very much.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you very much.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703900", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26599, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 24.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 24.0, "ID": 26599, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 29.0, "ContributionID": 703900, "EditedText": "That the Parliament agrees the following business programme:", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament agrees the following business programme:

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703903", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26599, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 24.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 24.0, "ID": 26599, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 32.0, "ContributionID": 703903, "EditedText": "The Scotland Act 1998 (Functions Exercisable in or as Regards Scotland) Order 1999;", "EditedTextHTML": "The Scotland Act 1998 (Functions Exercisable in or as Regards Scotland) Order 1999;

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703904", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26599, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 24.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 24.0, "ID": 26599, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 33.0, "ContributionID": 703904, "EditedText": "The Scotland Act 1998 (Transfer of Functions to the Scottish Ministers etc.) Order 1999;", "EditedTextHTML": "The Scotland Act 1998 (Transfer of Functions to the Scottish Ministers etc.) Order 1999;

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703909", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26599, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 24.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 24.0, "ID": 26599, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 38.0, "ContributionID": 703909, "EditedText": "S1M-26 Mr Henry McLeish: That the draft Scotland Act 1998 (Functions Exercisable in or as Regards Scotland) Order 1999, which was laid before the Parliament on 26 May, be approved.", "EditedTextHTML": "S1M-26 Mr Henry McLeish: That the draft Scotland Act 1998 (Functions Exercisable in or as Regards Scotland) Order 1999, which was laid before the Parliament on 26 May, be approved.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703913", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26599, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 24.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 24.0, "ID": 26599, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 42.0, "ContributionID": 703913, "EditedText": "1998 (Cross-Border Public Authorities) (Adaptation of Functions etc.) Order 1999, which was laid before the Parliament on 26 May, be approved.", "EditedTextHTML": "1998 (Cross-Border Public Authorities) (Adaptation of Functions etc.) Order 1999, which was laid before the Parliament on 26 May, be approved.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703917", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26599, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 24.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 24.0, "ID": 26599, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 46.0, "ContributionID": 703917, "EditedText": "S1M-19 Ross Finnie: That the Parliament notes that the Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries Order (S.I.1999/1126) in no way alters or restricts the freedom of the Scottish fleet to fish consistent with the Common Fisheries Policy of the European Union; notes that from 1 July the Parliament will be charged with the responsibility of regulating fishing in the newly created Scottish zone of British Fishery Limits and fishing by all Scottish vessels no matter where they fish; and will require consultation with relevant bodies in the preparation of legislation relating to fishing in the Scottish zone.", "EditedTextHTML": "S1M-19 Ross Finnie: That the Parliament notes that the Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries Order (S.I.1999/1126) in no way alters or restricts the freedom of the Scottish fleet to fish consistent with the Common Fisheries Policy of the European Union; notes that from 1 July the Parliament will be charged with the responsibility of regulating fishing in the newly created Scottish zone of British Fishery Limits and fishing by all Scottish vessels no matter where they fish; and will require consultation with relevant bodies in the preparation of legislation relating to fishing in the Scottish zone.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703918", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26599, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 24.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 24.0, "ID": 26599, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 47.0, "ContributionID": 703918, "EditedText": "5.00 pm Decision Time Tuesday 8 June 1999", "EditedTextHTML": "5.00 pm Decision Time Tuesday 8 June 1999

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703920", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26599, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 24.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 24.0, "ID": 26599, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 49.0, "ContributionID": 703920, "EditedText": "Motion(s) on the establishment of Committees followed by", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion(s) on the establishment of Committees followed by

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C703925", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26599, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 24.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 24.0, "ID": 26599, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell (South of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 55.0, "ContributionID": 703925, "EditedText": "I oppose the business motion in Tom McCabe's name. It is with great reluctance that I take this step. According to the consultative steering group report, the business committee—the Parliamentary Bureau—was meant to operate in a \"consensual way\"; and I know that the business managers, the Presiding Officer, the Deputy Presiding Officers and others have taken that point very seriously. The Parliamentary Bureau is part of a package that should reflect a desire for new politics in Scotland.I have given notice to the other business managers and to the Deputy Presiding Officers, through the Parliamentary Bureau, that I intend to oppose the business motion. I did that yesterday by minuting my dissent at a Parliamentary Bureau decision that was made by majority vote—the first vote that we have taken in four meetings. The \"Report of the Consultative Steering Group on the Scottish Parliament\", which was drawn up a by a committee chaired by Henry McLeish, was greatly helped by his positive attitude—at that time—to the new politics. It expressed a belief that the \"arrangements for the programming of business in the Scottish Parliament should be inclusive and transparent and should provide reasonable time for business initiated by non-Executive parties, by individual Members and by Committees.\" Mindful of that, the Parliamentary Bureau intended to provide a small allocation of time this week for motions from members who are not ministers. I do not want to go into detail of the full discussions of the Parliamentary Bureau, but I must be able to say that, at last week's meeting, agreement was reached without dissent that time would be allocated this Thursday for a debate that would reflect motions lodged by members. After discussion it was agreed that the debate should reflect on the order on the Scottish adjacent waters boundaries, because two motions, from two different groups of people, had been lodged on the matter. I stress that the Parliamentary Bureau wished to consider motions from members in order to reflect the desire of many members to debate current concerns. As there were two such motions, the Parliamentary Bureau asked the principal movers, Euan Robson and Richard Lochhead, to meet to arrange a single motion. There would have been no difficulty in doing that; the motions were broadly similar and expressed opposition to the boundary order. However, negotiations on the motion were suspended yesterday morning after Euan Robson told Richard Lochhead that the Cabinet was discussing the matter. That was confirmed to me in a telephone conversation with the Liberal Democrat business manager. Later yesterday morning, after the Cabinet meeting, I was approached and asked whether I would agree with an Executive motion in the name of Ross Finnie. I refused and asked for a special meeting of the Parliamentary Bureau. At that meeting, James Douglas-Hamilton proposed a compromise, which was to debate the matter on a motion from the SNP, with the Executive motion as an amendment. The original Cabinet decision was, however, rammed through on the votes of the Liberal Democrat and Labour business managers. That is not the substantive issue. The substantive issue is what standing and status this Parliament and the Parliamentary Bureau have in ordering business. In Henry McLeish's introduction to the CSG report, he wrote that \"the establishment of the Scottish Parliament offers the opportunity to put in place a new sort of democracy in Scotland . . . people . . . have high hopes for their Parliament . . . in particular our recommendations envisage an open, accessible Parliament; a Parliament where power is shared with the people\". In the last paragraph he adds:\"The work of this Group has set the tone for the future of Scottish politics.\" It has not yet done that, but we can decide today to set the tone for the future of Scottish politics. During the election, all parties and most candidates expressed their support for the new politics—a different way of doing things and a move away from the Westminster Government's dictatorial attitudes to the UK Parliament towards a consensual approach in which there would be debate and discussion on what took place. At the heart of that approach was the existence of the Parliamentary Bureau, which could discuss on behalf of the Parliament what motions would be taken and how they would be ordered. I oppose this business motion because, within three weeks, we have departed from that practice. The pattern of departure has included the question of Short money, the problem of allowances and staff support and now the ordering of business. This Executive is saying that it will operate on the basis of Westminster business as usual, in which the views of the Government alone count. I am informed that, regrettably, members of the Executive parties—even the Liberals, who have a proud record of defending democracy and parliamentary institutions—are being whipped to support the motion. They will allow a dark cloud to obscure the new light of Scottish democracy if this business motion goes through. If the motion is rejected, however, I understand that the bureau will meet immediately and a new business motion will be proposed. The people of Scotland, who on 6 May demanded a new politics, deserve to be heard in this chamber. Most of all, they must be heard by the Executive. The people asked for a different way of doing things, the CSG produced a report which gave that life and the standing orders indicate that we should do things differently. The obstacle to that lies with the Executive, which is determined to veto decisions of the Parliamentary Bureau as if it were a Cabinet subcommittee rather than a full committee of this Parliament. There is no doubt that the bureau is intended to be a full committee of this Parliament. To allow this motion to go through would be wrong in principle, wrong in practice, wrong for Scottish democracy and wrong for the future of this chamber. I ask members to oppose the motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "I oppose the business motion in Tom McCabe's name. It is with great reluctance that I take this step. According to the consultative steering group report, the business committee—the Parliamentary Bureau—was meant to operate in a \"consensual way\"; and I know that the business managers, the Presiding Officer, the Deputy Presiding Officers and others have taken that point very seriously. The Parliamentary Bureau is part of a package that should reflect a desire for new politics in Scotland.

I have given notice to the other business managers and to the Deputy Presiding Officers, through the Parliamentary Bureau, that I intend to oppose the business motion. I did that yesterday by minuting my dissent at a Parliamentary Bureau

decision that was made by majority vote—the first vote that we have taken in four meetings.

The \"Report of the Consultative Steering Group on the Scottish Parliament\", which was drawn up a by a committee chaired by Henry McLeish, was greatly helped by his positive attitude—at that time—to the new politics. It expressed a belief that the

\"arrangements for the programming of business in the Scottish Parliament should be inclusive and transparent and should provide reasonable time for business initiated by non-Executive parties, by individual Members and by Committees.\"

Mindful of that, the Parliamentary Bureau intended to provide a small allocation of time this week for motions from members who are not ministers. I do not want to go into detail of the full discussions of the Parliamentary Bureau, but I must be able to say that, at last week's meeting, agreement was reached without dissent that time would be allocated this Thursday for a debate that would reflect motions lodged by members.

After discussion it was agreed that the debate should reflect on the order on the Scottish adjacent waters boundaries, because two motions, from two different groups of people, had been lodged on the matter. I stress that the Parliamentary Bureau wished to consider motions from members in order to reflect the desire of many members to debate current concerns. As there were two such motions, the Parliamentary Bureau asked the principal movers, Euan Robson and Richard Lochhead, to meet to arrange a single motion.

There would have been no difficulty in doing that; the motions were broadly similar and expressed opposition to the boundary order. However, negotiations on the motion were suspended yesterday morning after Euan Robson told Richard Lochhead that the Cabinet was discussing the matter. That was confirmed to me in a telephone conversation with the Liberal Democrat business manager.

Later yesterday morning, after the Cabinet meeting, I was approached and asked whether I would agree with an Executive motion in the name of Ross Finnie. I refused and asked for a special meeting of the Parliamentary Bureau. At that meeting, James Douglas-Hamilton proposed a compromise, which was to debate the matter on a motion from the SNP, with the Executive motion as an amendment. The original Cabinet decision was, however, rammed through on the votes of the Liberal Democrat and Labour business managers.

That is not the substantive issue. The substantive issue is what standing and status this Parliament and the Parliamentary Bureau have in ordering business. In Henry McLeish's introduction to the CSG report, he wrote that

\"the establishment of the Scottish Parliament offers the opportunity to put in place a new sort of democracy in Scotland . . . people . . . have high hopes for their Parliament . . . in particular our recommendations envisage an open, accessible Parliament; a Parliament where power is shared with the people\".

In the last paragraph he adds:

\"The work of this Group has set the tone for the future of Scottish politics.\"

It has not yet done that, but we can decide today to set the tone for the future of Scottish politics.

During the election, all parties and most candidates expressed their support for the new politics—a different way of doing things and a move away from the Westminster Government's dictatorial attitudes to the UK Parliament towards a consensual approach in which there would be debate and discussion on what took place. At the heart of that approach was the existence of the Parliamentary Bureau, which could discuss on behalf of the Parliament what motions would be taken and how they would be ordered.

I oppose this business motion because, within three weeks, we have departed from that practice. The pattern of departure has included the question of Short money, the problem of allowances and staff support and now the ordering of business. This Executive is saying that it will operate on the basis of Westminster business as usual, in which the views of the Government alone count.

I am informed that, regrettably, members of the Executive parties—even the Liberals, who have a proud record of defending democracy and parliamentary institutions—are being whipped to support the motion. They will allow a dark cloud to obscure the new light of Scottish democracy if this business motion goes through. If the motion is rejected, however, I understand that the bureau will meet immediately and a new business motion will be proposed.

The people of Scotland, who on 6 May demanded a new politics, deserve to be heard in this chamber. Most of all, they must be heard by the Executive. The people asked for a different way of doing things, the CSG produced a report which gave that life and the standing orders indicate that we should do things differently.

The obstacle to that lies with the Executive, which is determined to veto decisions of the Parliamentary Bureau as if it were a Cabinet subcommittee rather than a full committee of this Parliament. There is no doubt that the bureau is intended to be a full committee of this Parliament. To allow this motion to go through would be wrong in principle, wrong in practice, wrong for Scottish democracy and wrong for the future of this

chamber. I ask members to oppose the motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C703932", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26599, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 24.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 24.0, "ID": 26599, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 70.0, "ContributionID": 703932, "EditedText": "That information will be included in the business list at a later date; it is not necessary for it to appear now. It is time to put the question on the motion. The question is, that motion S1M-17, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "That information will be included in the business list at a later date; it is not necessary for it to appear now.

It is time to put the question on the motion. The question is, that motion S1M-17, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, be agreed to. Are we all agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C703929", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26599, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 24.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 24.0, "ID": 26599, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 64.0, "ContributionID": 703929, "EditedText": "What about North Lanarkshire?", "EditedTextHTML": "What about North Lanarkshire?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2228E151P202C703930", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26599, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 24.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 24.0, "ID": 26599, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McCabe, Tom", "ID": 2228, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Tom McCabe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McCabe: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 66.0, "ContributionID": 703930, "EditedText": "The comment is unfortunate and the geography is wrong—it was South Lanarkshire. I stress that no dark clouds will hang over this Parliament. The time today is Executive time. There is no attempt to inhibit debate. The subject that non-Executive members want to discuss is being debated. They will have the opportunity to contribute to that debate and to move any amendments. I move the business motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "The comment is unfortunate and the geography is wrong—it was South Lanarkshire.

I stress that no dark clouds will hang over this Parliament. The time today is Executive time. There is no attempt to inhibit debate. The subject that non-Executive members want to discuss is being debated. They will have the opportunity to contribute to that debate and to move any amendments. I move the business motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C703934", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26599, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 24.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 24.0, "ID": 26599, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 74.0, "ContributionID": 703934, "EditedText": "In that case, there will be a division. There will be a 30-second period in which members may vote; members should not cast their votes until the red light appears on the console. If members wish to agree, they should press the yes button. If they wish to disagree, they should press the no button, and if they wish to abstain, they should record that by pressing the appropriate button. The red light is now on, so members may vote.", "EditedTextHTML": "In that case, there will be a division. There will be a 30-second period in which members may vote; members should not cast their votes until the red light appears on the console. If members wish to agree, they should press the yes button. If they wish to disagree, they should press the no button, and if they wish to abstain, they should record that by pressing the appropriate button. The red light is now on, so members may vote.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C703939", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26599, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 24.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 24.0, "ID": 26599, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 82.0, "ContributionID": 703939, "EditedText": "That matter has not yet been raised in the Parliamentary Bureau. If parties have concerns about it, I am sure that it will be raised in future.", "EditedTextHTML": "That matter has not yet been raised in the Parliamentary Bureau. If parties have concerns about it, I am sure that it will be raised in future.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703943", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 90.0, "ContributionID": 703943, "EditedText": "The Scotland Act 1998 (Modifications of Schedules 4 and 5) Order 1999;", "EditedTextHTML": "The Scotland Act 1998 (Modifications of Schedules 4 and 5) Order 1999;

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C703950", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 98.0, "ContributionID": 703950, "EditedText": "On a point of order, Madam Deputy Presiding Officer. These orders have been thrust upon us. Given that one of the orders in particular was scheduled for tomorrow and that I did not arrive here until 2.30 pm this afternoon, could we have a 10-minute adjournment while I obtain the relevant document? The Deputy Presiding Officer: No. Only three orders will be debated this afternoon, Mr Gallie, so that problem does not arise.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order, Madam Deputy Presiding Officer. These orders have been thrust upon us. Given that one of the orders in particular was scheduled for tomorrow and that I did not arrive here until

2.30 pm this afternoon, could we have a 10-minute adjournment while I obtain the relevant document? The Deputy Presiding Officer: No. Only three orders will be debated this afternoon, Mr Gallie, so that problem does not arise.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1906E278P355C703957", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Welsh, Andrew", "ID": 1906, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Angus" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Welsh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Andrew Welsh (Angus) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 113.0, "ContributionID": 703957, "EditedText": "If powers are to be exercised concurrently by ministers, what mechanism will be used to do that formally? If it is to be done by concordat, when will the Parliament get to see that or any other concordat?", "EditedTextHTML": "If powers are to be exercised concurrently by ministers, what mechanism will be used to do that formally? If it is to be done by concordat, when will the Parliament get to see that or any other concordat?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C703967", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 135.0, "ContributionID": 703967, "EditedText": "He is too busy; Mr McLetchie can tell me.", "EditedTextHTML": "He is too busy; Mr McLetchie can tell me.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C703968", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 137.0, "ContributionID": 703968, "EditedText": "I suggest that, in his search for economies in the Scottish budget, Mr McConnell should be sharpening his pencil and wielding his axe on this bloated Administration, because as far as most Scots are concerned the business of government in Scotland has regrettably become our biggest growth industry. The quest for leaner and smarter government in Scotland is a subject to which we in the Scottish Conservatives will be returning time and time again in this Parliament. In the meantime, we support the orders.", "EditedTextHTML": "I suggest that, in his search for economies in the Scottish budget, Mr McConnell should be sharpening his pencil and wielding his axe on this bloated Administration, because as far as most Scots are concerned the business of government in Scotland has regrettably become our biggest growth industry.

The quest for leaner and smarter government in Scotland is a subject to which we in the Scottish Conservatives will be returning time and time

again in this Parliament. In the meantime, we support the orders.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2123E103P242C703969", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Chisholm, Malcolm", "ID": 2123, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh North and Leith" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Malcolm Chisholm", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 140.0, "ContributionID": 703969, "EditedText": "Two charges have been made against these orders, especially that on Short money, which is clearly the most controversial element. First, Mr Russell said that they ignore conventions. Secondly, Mr Russell and Mr McLetchie claimed that they are an affront to democracy. Mr Russell said that they undermine the democratic process and Mr McLetchie said that they suppress opposition. Those are serious charges. It is regrettable that such intemperate language has been used: the whole purpose of this Parliament was massively to increase democracy in Scotland. It is simply farcical to say that the party that took the legislation that established this Parliament through the House of Commons, the party that established the voting system to ensure fair voting, and the party that insisted on the great expansion of democracy through the committee system is now undermining democracy. Such a statement beggars belief—it is the opposite of what everybody in Scotland knows from their own eyes and from their own experience. Andrew Wilson (Central Scotland) (SNP)rose—", "EditedTextHTML": "Two charges have been made against these orders, especially that on Short money, which is clearly the most controversial element. First, Mr Russell said that they ignore conventions. Secondly, Mr Russell and Mr McLetchie claimed that they are an affront to democracy. Mr Russell said that they undermine the democratic process and Mr McLetchie said that they suppress opposition. Those are serious charges. It is regrettable that such intemperate language has been used: the whole purpose of this Parliament was massively to increase democracy in Scotland. It is simply farcical to say that the party that took the legislation that established this Parliament through the House of Commons, the party that established the voting system to ensure fair voting, and the party that insisted on the great expansion of democracy through the committee system is now undermining democracy. Such a statement beggars belief—it is the opposite of what everybody in Scotland knows from their own eyes and from their own experience.

Andrew Wilson (Central Scotland) (SNP)

rose—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C703965", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell (South of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 130.0, "ContributionID": 703965, "EditedText": "I give a general welcome to the orders. It is not a specific welcome as they contain a great deal of detail and, as Nicola Sturgeon said, items need to be teased out from the vast bulk of documentation that has been presented to us. However, anything that moves forward the Scottish Parliament and the process of decision making in Scotland is to be welcomed, although there are many things to watch out for. In Mr McLeish's contribution, one thing particularly to watch out for is that we must see the draft concordats published before they go anywhere near a fountain pen held by a member of the Scottish Executive or of the United Kingdom Government. In commencing the debate, I will concentrate on one set of articles in the first of the orders. In articles 2(1) and 2(2) of the Scotland Act 1998 (Modifications of Schedules 4 and 5) Order 1999, there is a means by which the Scottish Parliament is able to set the allocation of moneys for registered political parties—in other words, the Scottish Parliament can implement the system known as Short money. These two paragraphs are important—although I will come to how Short money might be operated later. The amount of money available is minuscule in comparison with what was contained in the three pages of the equivalent order that was laid before Westminster. However, this order, which was laid on the last day before the Whitsun recess in what was essentially an attempt to sneak it through Westminster, is very worrying. It not only ignores the conventions on Short money and how it is paid, it runs in direct contravention of the recommendations of the Neill committee report on party political funding, and I will concentrate on the ways in which the order does that. The Short money that was paid from 1975 to last week was, on the very day on which this order was tabled, increased substantially for the Westminster parties. That was in recognition of representations made to the Neill committee by every political party and by many others. The purpose of Short money is to enable Opposition parties to fulfil more effectively their primary duties. In the words of the Neill committee report \"we believe that the Short money scheme is founded on the sound principle that, in a parliamentary democracy, the party in Government should be held to account and kept in check by a vigorous and well-prepared Opposition\". I think that every member of this chamber accepts that principle. However, like all principles, it is how it works in practice that becomes the issue. There is no doubt that by dramatically reducing the amount of Short money available to parties, which is, in effect, what the Westminster Government's order does, the Labour party is attempting to ensure that the work of the Opposition parties is undermined. If that measure is put alongside the way in which the discussion on allowances has taken place, there is a concerted attempt to undermine not only the work of Opposition parties but the democratic process. The Westminster order should be most strongly objected to, and I hope that arrangements will be made to have the order debated in full at Westminster and not in the dark recesses of a small committee. It is also important to see whether there is any way to restore a democratic method of funding Opposition political parties. The Neill committee's recommendations on such matters were very clear to this Parliament. The committee said that there should be consultation and discussion between the parties. That has not taken place and certainly did not take place at Westminster. The committee also recommended that this Parliament should have the opportunity to set the Short money, which is what the two paragraphs in the order seek to do. From 2 July, we will have the opportunity to produce primary legislation. I understand that it will take such legislation to put in place a scheme for setting the Short money for this Parliament. There are a number of ways of achieving that aim, but I want to bring one particular idea to the debate. The SNP intends to table a motion soon that will ask this Parliament to refer the matter to the members of the Neill committee for their binding views on what the amount of Short money should be. I cannot imagine why the Executive would object to that proposal. The Labour party was strongly in support of the committee. Indeed, I note that when Ann Taylor was Leader of the House, she objected to the present Short money arrangements—which was one of the reasons why the amount was upgraded—saying that the money was not nearly enough for Opposition parties. That was when the Short money for Labour was £1.5 million. I hope that the Labour party—and every party in this Parliament—will accept that the Neill committee, which has put forward strong views on the matter, should arbitrate on the issue. That will also give the committee the opportunity to arbitrate on which parties should receive that funding. The order at Westminster allocates the funding to the Liberal Democrats, which is clearly in contravention of the recommendations of the Neill committee report. I have to point out to members that the Labour party, in its evidence to the committee, suggested that the governing party itself should also get the money, so I suppose we should be grateful for small mercies that it was not quite as barefaced as that in this Parliament. However, the Neill committee could take a considered view on the matter and could consult with each of the political parties in this Parliament rather than force through the matter. Ominously, the order at Westminster anticipates arrangements which recede into the far distance, and I suspect that the Government may feel that, once the Westminster order is passed, it should sit there and undermine the Opposition parties. I am glad to say that, if we pass this order—and the SNP shall certainly vote for it in that spirit— there will be an opportunity for this Parliament to consider what is appropriate, to support the work of the Opposition and to make sure that there is a balance of forces in the Parliament, instead of a dictatorship from the Executive. That is one of the reasons why I—and the SNP—will support the order. Furthermore, I hope that we will soon have the opportunity to vote on a motion to take the matter to the Neill committee and to seek the opinion and influence of people who have gone on public record as being somewhat scandalised by the order laid at Westminster.", "EditedTextHTML": "I give a general welcome to the orders. It is not a specific welcome as they contain a great deal of detail and, as Nicola Sturgeon said, items need to be teased out from the vast bulk of documentation that has been presented to us. However, anything that moves forward the Scottish Parliament and the process of decision making in Scotland is to be welcomed, although there are many things to watch out for. In Mr McLeish's contribution, one thing particularly to watch out for is that we must see the draft concordats published before they go anywhere near a fountain pen held by a member of the Scottish Executive or of the United Kingdom Government.

In commencing the debate, I will concentrate on one set of articles in the first of the orders. In articles 2(1) and 2(2) of the Scotland Act 1998 (Modifications of Schedules 4 and 5) Order 1999, there is a means by which the Scottish Parliament is able to set the allocation of moneys for registered political parties—in other words, the Scottish Parliament can implement the system

known as Short money. These two paragraphs are important—although I will come to how Short money might be operated later. The amount of money available is minuscule in comparison with what was contained in the three pages of the equivalent order that was laid before Westminster. However, this order, which was laid on the last day before the Whitsun recess in what was essentially an attempt to sneak it through Westminster, is very worrying. It not only ignores the conventions on Short money and how it is paid, it runs in direct contravention of the recommendations of the Neill committee report on party political funding, and I will concentrate on the ways in which the order does that.

The Short money that was paid from 1975 to last week was, on the very day on which this order was tabled, increased substantially for the Westminster parties. That was in recognition of representations made to the Neill committee by every political party and by many others. The purpose of Short money is to enable Opposition parties to fulfil more effectively their primary duties. In the words of the Neill committee report

\"we believe that the Short money scheme is founded on the sound principle that, in a parliamentary democracy, the party in Government should be held to account and kept in check by a vigorous and well-prepared Opposition\".

I think that every member of this chamber accepts that principle. However, like all principles, it is how it works in practice that becomes the issue. There is no doubt that by dramatically reducing the amount of Short money available to parties, which is, in effect, what the Westminster Government's order does, the Labour party is attempting to ensure that the work of the Opposition parties is undermined. If that measure is put alongside the way in which the discussion on allowances has taken place, there is a concerted attempt to undermine not only the work of Opposition parties but the democratic process. The Westminster order should be most strongly objected to, and I hope that arrangements will be made to have the order debated in full at Westminster and not in the dark recesses of a small committee.

It is also important to see whether there is any way to restore a democratic method of funding Opposition political parties. The Neill committee's recommendations on such matters were very clear to this Parliament. The committee said that there should be consultation and discussion between the parties. That has not taken place and certainly did not take place at Westminster. The committee also recommended that this Parliament should have the opportunity to set the Short money, which is what the two paragraphs in the order seek to do.

From 2 July, we will have the opportunity to produce primary legislation. I understand that it will take such legislation to put in place a scheme for setting the Short money for this Parliament. There are a number of ways of achieving that aim, but I want to bring one particular idea to the debate. The SNP intends to table a motion soon that will ask this Parliament to refer the matter to the members of the Neill committee for their binding views on what the amount of Short money should be.

I cannot imagine why the Executive would object to that proposal. The Labour party was strongly in support of the committee. Indeed, I note that when Ann Taylor was Leader of the House, she objected to the present Short money arrangements—which was one of the reasons why the amount was upgraded—saying that the money was not nearly enough for Opposition parties. That was when the Short money for Labour was £1.5 million.

I hope that the Labour party—and every party in this Parliament—will accept that the Neill committee, which has put forward strong views on the matter, should arbitrate on the issue. That will also give the committee the opportunity to arbitrate on which parties should receive that funding. The order at Westminster allocates the funding to the Liberal Democrats, which is clearly in contravention of the recommendations of the Neill committee report. I have to point out to members that the Labour party, in its evidence to the committee, suggested that the governing party itself should also get the money, so I suppose we should be grateful for small mercies that it was not quite as barefaced as that in this Parliament.

However, the Neill committee could take a considered view on the matter and could consult with each of the political parties in this Parliament rather than force through the matter. Ominously, the order at Westminster anticipates arrangements which recede into the far distance, and I suspect that the Government may feel that, once the Westminster order is passed, it should sit there and undermine the Opposition parties.

I am glad to say that, if we pass this order—and the SNP shall certainly vote for it in that spirit— there will be an opportunity for this Parliament to consider what is appropriate, to support the work of the Opposition and to make sure that there is a balance of forces in the Parliament, instead of a dictatorship from the Executive. That is one of the reasons why I—and the SNP—will support the order.

Furthermore, I hope that we will soon have the opportunity to vote on a motion to take the matter to the Neill committee and to seek the opinion and influence of people who have gone on public record as being somewhat scandalised by the order laid at Westminster.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C703970", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 142.0, "ContributionID": 703970, "EditedText": "Does Mr Chisholm believe that members who have gone to the voters and who, by their statements, have given voters to believe that they have firmly held objectives and principles should, when they come into this chamber, reject those principles and objectives? Is that not an affront to democracy?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does Mr Chisholm believe that members who have gone to the voters and who, by their statements, have given voters to believe that they have firmly held objectives and principles should, when they come into this chamber, reject those principles and objectives? Is that not an affront to democracy?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2123E103P242C703975", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Chisholm, Malcolm", "ID": 2123, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh North and Leith" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Malcolm Chisholm", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Malcolm Chisholm: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 152.0, "ContributionID": 703975, "EditedText": "That is not the issue we are debating. We are debating how money should be given to the Opposition parties at this moment. The system will change after 1 July and we will be able to discuss that then. We are discussing a particular order to get the system up and running. It is very important that we challenge the idea that this is an affront to democracy. I do not particularly want to defend the convention, but the opening charge made by Mike Russell was that convention was being ignored. That is simply not true. Regarding the position of the Liberal Democrats, I am sure that everyone knows that section 97(3) of the Scotland Act 1998 allows a coalition partner to receive Short money. We should approve the orders, although we willobviously have further discussions about this issue as that will become possible after 1 July. I agree with the article in yesterday's The Scotsman that made the point that by elevating this issue we are doing the Parliament an enormous disservice, rather than getting ahead with the business it was set up to perform.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is not the issue we are debating. We are debating how money should be given to the Opposition parties at this moment. The system will change after 1 July and we will be able to discuss that then. We are discussing a particular order to get the system up and running. It is very important that we challenge the idea that this is an affront to democracy. I do not particularly want to defend the convention, but the opening charge made by Mike Russell was that convention was being ignored. That is simply not true. Regarding the position of the Liberal Democrats, I am sure that everyone knows that section 97(3) of the Scotland Act 1998 allows a coalition partner to receive Short money.

We should approve the orders, although we will

obviously have further discussions about this issue as that will become possible after 1 July. I agree with the article in yesterday's The Scotsman that made the point that by elevating this issue we are doing the Parliament an enormous disservice, rather than getting ahead with the business it was set up to perform.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C703979", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 162.0, "ContributionID": 703979, "EditedText": "I will address motion S1M-27 on the transfer of functions to Scottish ministers under section 63 of the Scotland Act 1998. I welcome and concur with Mr McLeish's comments on the new democracy, but I ask him to reflect on the fact that, to be effective, any Opposition must be fully functioning. From the start of this Parliament, there has been a range of evidence to suggest that the Executive has not driven that view forward. As Mr Welsh mentioned in his intervention, the second schedule introduced by the Scotland Act 1998 (Transfer of Functions to the Scottish Ministers etc.) Order 1999 refers to powers that are exercised concurrently and will be governed by concordats. In reply, Mr McLeish said that the concordats will be published in due course. How can we vote on a motion that requires information about the concordats when that information is not available? We are being asked to sign away powers on the basis of concordats that we know nothing about. That is neither open nor democratic. Mr McLeish should consider the fact that we are being asked to vote now. Schedule 3 outlines the functions to be exercised by Westminster ministers subject to the agreement of, or in consultation with, the Scottish ministers. As we know, consultation and agreement are two different things. Can Mr McLeish give us any information about the grounds on which functions were determined to be exercisable after consultation as opposed to by agreement? How does that compare with the relevant functions previously administered by Scottish Office ministers? It is possible to consult and then to ignore what is said. I charge the Government with being renowned for doing just that. A recent example involved disability groups prior to the Welfare Reform and Pensions Bill. Very little of substance came out of the consultation. If some of the functions can be exercised only with agreement, the simple question is, why not all of them? Surely there should be agreement between Westminster and Scottish Executive ministers and not mere consultation with the nodding Scottish Executive which, in its early days, has brought some of the worst practices of one-party state councils together with some of the worst practices of Millbank. That does not bode well for the new democracy that Mr McLeish knows we want in this place. The consultative steering group has been made a fool of. Some of its members will be wondering why they gave up so much time, energy and commitment when it has been ridden over roughshod. The Neill committee would appear to have been bypassed. I hope that, if Mr Chisholm can come to a decision at some point in the next wee while, we may have some cross-party support for an above board transfer of functions. What we are about to see is a transfer of powers that will mean that this legislature will be left with no role other than to nod, be consulted and then agree. Finally, I would like to make a positive request for information on the concordats to be clearly set out—perhaps the Executive could place it in the Scottish Parliament information centre—so that we can see what the concordats are about, on what terms they were written and the conditions that will determine whether functions will be exercisable with the agreement of or in consultation with ministers under schedule 3. We need to see in black and white which functions are down for consultation rather than agreement. Can we have the details of all the functions that are being transferred? Are there any functions that Scottish Office ministers did not hold previously, but Scottish Executive ministers now do? By contrast, are there any that were held, but are not now? Is there any change of status in any of the functions in terms of what Scottish ministers can do now compared with what was previously the case? Basically, this is an appeal from an Opposition party that does not have any back-up due to delays and obfuscations on its own side. Can we have something in black and white on which we can form some considered opinions? That would allow us to form an effective Opposition, which I am sure the Executive would like.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will address motion S1M-27 on the transfer of functions to Scottish ministers under section 63 of the Scotland Act 1998.

I welcome and concur with Mr McLeish's comments on the new democracy, but I ask him to reflect on the fact that, to be effective, any Opposition must be fully functioning. From the start of this Parliament, there has been a range of evidence to suggest that the Executive has not driven that view forward.

As Mr Welsh mentioned in his intervention, the second schedule introduced by the Scotland Act 1998 (Transfer of Functions to the Scottish Ministers etc.) Order 1999 refers to powers that are exercised concurrently and will be governed by concordats. In reply, Mr McLeish said that the concordats will be published in due course. How can we vote on a motion that requires information about the concordats when that information is not available? We are being asked to sign away powers on the basis of concordats that we know nothing about. That is neither open nor democratic. Mr McLeish should consider the fact that we are being asked to vote now.

Schedule 3 outlines the functions to be exercised by Westminster ministers subject to the

agreement of, or in consultation with, the Scottish ministers. As we know, consultation and agreement are two different things. Can Mr McLeish give us any information about the grounds on which functions were determined to be exercisable after consultation as opposed to by agreement? How does that compare with the relevant functions previously administered by Scottish Office ministers? It is possible to consult and then to ignore what is said. I charge the Government with being renowned for doing just that. A recent example involved disability groups prior to the Welfare Reform and Pensions Bill. Very little of substance came out of the consultation.

If some of the functions can be exercised only with agreement, the simple question is, why not all of them? Surely there should be agreement between Westminster and Scottish Executive ministers and not mere consultation with the nodding Scottish Executive which, in its early days, has brought some of the worst practices of one-party state councils together with some of the worst practices of Millbank. That does not bode well for the new democracy that Mr McLeish knows we want in this place.

The consultative steering group has been made a fool of. Some of its members will be wondering why they gave up so much time, energy and commitment when it has been ridden over roughshod. The Neill committee would appear to have been bypassed. I hope that, if Mr Chisholm can come to a decision at some point in the next wee while, we may have some cross-party support for an above board transfer of functions. What we are about to see is a transfer of powers that will mean that this legislature will be left with no role other than to nod, be consulted and then agree.

Finally, I would like to make a positive request for information on the concordats to be clearly set out—perhaps the Executive could place it in the Scottish Parliament information centre—so that we can see what the concordats are about, on what terms they were written and the conditions that will determine whether functions will be exercisable with the agreement of or in consultation with ministers under schedule 3. We need to see in black and white which functions are down for consultation rather than agreement.

Can we have the details of all the functions that are being transferred? Are there any functions that Scottish Office ministers did not hold previously, but Scottish Executive ministers now do? By contrast, are there any that were held, but are not now? Is there any change of status in any of the functions in terms of what Scottish ministers can do now compared with what was previously the case?

Basically, this is an appeal from an Opposition party that does not have any back-up due to delays and obfuscations on its own side. Can we have something in black and white on which we can form some considered opinions? That would allow us to form an effective Opposition, which I am sure the Executive would like.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C703980", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 164.0, "ContributionID": 703980, "EditedText": "Members should remember to address remarks to the chair and not directly to one another.", "EditedTextHTML": "Members should remember to address remarks to the chair and not directly to one another.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C703981", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Keith Raffan (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 167.0, "ContributionID": 703981, "EditedText": "I support these statutory instruments and wish to speak about financial assistance for political parties. I did not intend to speak, but I am encouraged to do so—one might say provoked to do so—by Mr McLetchie's contribution, if that is not too kind a description, and I will use temperate language. I think that all of us agree that Short money is a good thing. The concept is named after Ted Short, now Lord Glenamara, and is a tribute to the Labour party. I am happy to pay tribute to other political parties when I think they deserve it. We may disagree about the mechanics of Short money, but the principle is something on which all parties in this chamber can agree because it allows each political party to be less in hock to their associated vested interests, be it the trade unions, big business or the occasional Hollywood celebrity. It allows political parties to be financed and resourced independently and so to speak independently. With regard to Mr McLetchie's remarks, I could perhaps—if the Labour party will allow me—quote Clement Attlee's famous remark to Harold Laski: \"A period of silence from you would be welcome\".Considering the extent to which the Conservatives' election campaign was financed by one man, Mr Irvine Laidlaw, whose permanent residence seems to be a luxurious yacht sailing around the Bahamas in tax exile, Mr McLetchie is being extraordinarily sanctimonious. Nothing highlights the need for Short money better than the Conservatives' funding. If Short exists thanks to the Labour party, Neill and Nolan exist thanks to the misdeeds of the Conservative party. I happen to know quite a lot about those misdeeds as I used to be a member of the Conservative party. I know what it got up to, which is perhaps unfortunate for it, and it is one of the reasons I left. We must remember the extent to which foreign millionaires financed the party. William Hague sanctimoniously criticises other political parties and their funding, but is remarkably reluctant to name, even now, the millionaires from Hong Kong and Greece—a group that included Mr John Latsis—who financed the party. They helped Conservative central office to pay off the Royal Bank of Scotland's remarkably generous overdraft of £14 million to £15 million. I will not go into the issue of brown envelopes or cash for questions—I could go on and on. Rather than shaking his head, Mr McLetchie should sort out his own house and clean up his own party before sanctimoniously preaching to the chamber and the Liberal Democrats. One of the reasons I belong to this party is that it is made up of independent-minded people such as Donald Gorrie. We do not have the financial resources of the Conservative party which, even now, Conservative members refuse to reveal to the public at large.", "EditedTextHTML": "I support these statutory instruments and wish to speak about financial assistance for political parties. I did not intend to speak, but I am encouraged to do so—one might say provoked to do so—by Mr McLetchie's contribution, if that is not too kind a description, and I will use temperate language.

I think that all of us agree that Short money is a good thing. The concept is named after Ted Short, now Lord Glenamara, and is a tribute to the Labour party. I am happy to pay tribute to other political parties when I think they deserve it. We may disagree about the mechanics of Short money, but the principle is something on which all parties in this chamber can agree because it allows each political party to be less in hock to their associated vested interests, be it the trade unions, big business or the occasional Hollywood celebrity. It allows political parties to be financed and resourced independently and so to speak independently.

With regard to Mr McLetchie's remarks, I could perhaps—if the Labour party will allow me—quote Clement Attlee's famous remark to Harold Laski:

\"A period of silence from you would be welcome\".

Considering the extent to which the Conservatives' election campaign was financed by one man, Mr Irvine Laidlaw, whose permanent residence seems to be a luxurious yacht sailing around the Bahamas in tax exile, Mr McLetchie is being extraordinarily sanctimonious.

Nothing highlights the need for Short money better than the Conservatives' funding. If Short exists thanks to the Labour party, Neill and Nolan exist thanks to the misdeeds of the Conservative party. I happen to know quite a lot about those misdeeds as I used to be a member of the Conservative party. I know what it got up to, which is perhaps unfortunate for it, and it is one of the reasons I left. We must remember the extent to which foreign millionaires financed the party. William Hague sanctimoniously criticises other political parties and their funding, but is remarkably reluctant to name, even now, the

millionaires from Hong Kong and Greece—a group that included Mr John Latsis—who financed the party. They helped Conservative central office to pay off the Royal Bank of Scotland's remarkably generous overdraft of £14 million to £15 million.

I will not go into the issue of brown envelopes or cash for questions—I could go on and on. Rather than shaking his head, Mr McLetchie should sort out his own house and clean up his own party before sanctimoniously preaching to the chamber and the Liberal Democrats. One of the reasons I belong to this party is that it is made up of independent-minded people such as Donald Gorrie. We do not have the financial resources of the Conservative party which, even now, Conservative members refuse to reveal to the public at large.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1901E57P277C703988", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Allan", "ID": 1901, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Cunninghame North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Allan Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Allan Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 182.0, "ContributionID": 703988, "EditedText": "No, I am going to finish.What is now being proposed is arguably fair and generous. We will have the opportunity to debate the matter as it is a section 30 order. It is appropriate that the Scottish Parliament should fix things. It is incongruous for a nationalist party to refer the matter outside this Parliament for it to be decided on elsewhere.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I am going to finish.

What is now being proposed is arguably fair and generous. We will have the opportunity to debate the matter as it is a section 30 order. It is appropriate that the Scottish Parliament should fix things. It is incongruous for a nationalist party to refer the matter outside this Parliament for it to be decided on elsewhere.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1863E284P532C703989", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Cunningham, Roseanna", "ID": 1863, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Perth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Roseanna Cunningham", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Roseanna Cunningham (Perth) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 185.0, "ContributionID": 703989, "EditedText": "That is the most extraordinary performance that I have ever heard, from someone whose party clearly knows the price of everything and the value of nothing. To use the word democracy in that context is an absolute disgrace. Some of the members who make speeches today should go away and carefully reflect on the principles that they are advocating for this new Parliament. What negotiations does Allan Wilson suggest took place on Short money and allowances? Absolutely none, and he was too afraid to allow an intervention that he knew would expose that fact. Contributions such as Allan Wilson's do no favours to the future of democracy in Scotland. I want to speak about one of the other issues raised by the minister, but which members have not concentrated on because they have been diverted—quite rightly—by allowances and Short money. Article 5 of the Scotland Act 1998 (Modifications of Schedules 4 and 5) Order 1999 seeks to insert a new section into part II of schedule 5 to the Scotland Act. That will affect access to information, which is an important issue that is in danger of being overlooked—although given some of the earlier speeches, we can see why the governing coalition might prefer not to have to talk too much about access to information. The order is an attempt to add another reservation to an already long list of reservations in the Scotland Act, and to do so at Westminster as sneakily as possible. I find it instructive that the ink is hardly dry on the Scotland Act and already Westminster is clawing back powers. I wonder whether that will be a regular occurrence. Schedule 5 in its present form has already been debated and passed at Westminster, and it is a bit rich that it is being revisited even before the transfer of powers has taken place on 1 July. I notice how it is being revisited and which way the powers are going. One wonders whether Westminster would be quite as sanguine if we presented it with a similar fait accompli. I learn from the media that we are to have a statement on freedom of information from our new Minister for Justice. Last week he promised a freedom of information regime, whatever that means. So we are to have a statement, a regime—no word of a bill. I notice with some dismay that the entire Liberal Democrat front bench appears to have absented itself from this debate, so clearly we will get no clarification from the Minister for Justice, although we need it. It seems extraordinary to me that the Scottish Parliament does not want to take the opportunity that has been afforded it of forging ahead in this area. This order would help to close down sources of information in Scotland. The Government has already produced a neutered bill at Westminster— a bill that might better have been titled the not very much freedom of information bill. In the debate on that bill, in what we are coming to term the other place, the Liberal Democrat spokesman raised questions about what was proposed, in the hope that further concessions would be made. Are we to believe that in Scotland the same Liberal Democrats not only are without questions, but have no intention of changing the current scenario, and that the governing coalition is not only happy with that, but is content to allow it to be taken even further? That is what is happening here today. If he is lucky enough to catch your eye, Mr Deputy Presiding Officer, my colleague Kenny MacAskill will highlight some of the important areas in which our freedom to know will be curtailed, and how that will effectively gag Scots on matters that are vital to Scotland. Undoubtedly there will be many more such areas, courtesy of both Labour and Liberal Democrat members—or, should I say, of their Millbank masters. That does not bode well for Scotland's new Government.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is the most extraordinary performance that I have ever heard, from someone whose party clearly knows the price of everything and the value of nothing. To use the word democracy in that context is an absolute disgrace. Some of the members who make speeches today should go away and carefully reflect on the principles that they are advocating for this new Parliament. What negotiations does Allan Wilson suggest took place on Short money and allowances? Absolutely none, and he was too afraid to allow an intervention that he knew would expose that fact. Contributions such as Allan Wilson's do no favours to the future of democracy in Scotland.

I want to speak about one of the other issues raised by the minister, but which members have not concentrated on because they have been diverted—quite rightly—by allowances and Short money. Article 5 of the Scotland Act 1998

(Modifications of Schedules 4 and 5) Order 1999 seeks to insert a new section into part II of schedule 5 to the Scotland Act. That will affect access to information, which is an important issue that is in danger of being overlooked—although given some of the earlier speeches, we can see why the governing coalition might prefer not to have to talk too much about access to information.

The order is an attempt to add another reservation to an already long list of reservations in the Scotland Act, and to do so at Westminster as sneakily as possible. I find it instructive that the ink is hardly dry on the Scotland Act and already Westminster is clawing back powers. I wonder whether that will be a regular occurrence.

Schedule 5 in its present form has already been debated and passed at Westminster, and it is a bit rich that it is being revisited even before the transfer of powers has taken place on 1 July. I notice how it is being revisited and which way the powers are going. One wonders whether Westminster would be quite as sanguine if we presented it with a similar fait accompli.

I learn from the media that we are to have a statement on freedom of information from our new Minister for Justice. Last week he promised a freedom of information regime, whatever that means. So we are to have a statement, a regime—no word of a bill. I notice with some dismay that the entire Liberal Democrat front bench appears to have absented itself from this debate, so clearly we will get no clarification from the Minister for Justice, although we need it.

It seems extraordinary to me that the Scottish Parliament does not want to take the opportunity that has been afforded it of forging ahead in this area. This order would help to close down sources of information in Scotland. The Government has already produced a neutered bill at Westminster— a bill that might better have been titled the not very much freedom of information bill. In the debate on that bill, in what we are coming to term the other place, the Liberal Democrat spokesman raised questions about what was proposed, in the hope that further concessions would be made. Are we to believe that in Scotland the same Liberal Democrats not only are without questions, but have no intention of changing the current scenario, and that the governing coalition is not only happy with that, but is content to allow it to be taken even further? That is what is happening here today.

If he is lucky enough to catch your eye, Mr Deputy Presiding Officer, my colleague Kenny MacAskill will highlight some of the important areas in which our freedom to know will be curtailed, and how that will effectively gag Scots on matters that are vital to Scotland. Undoubtedly there will be many more such areas, courtesy of both Labour and Liberal Democrat members—or, should I say, of their Millbank masters. That does not bode well for Scotland's new Government.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2090E83P266C703994", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAllion, Mr John", "ID": 2090, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dundee East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John McAllion", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McAllion: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 197.0, "ContributionID": 703994, "EditedText": "That is the tenor which debate in this chamber is now beginning to get dragged into by party politics. It should not be happening. Members of this Parliament should be above such nonsense, and the whole debate this afternoon should be above the Westminster-style confrontational politics that we are seeing. Let us deal with Short money. In Westminster terms, it is a modernising idea, and 1975 is like the day before yesterday. It is also a principle at the very heart of Westminster-style government. What we have here is an Opposition party that claims to detest Westminster politics, but which is trying to introduce Westminster-style ideas, Westminster- style thinking and a Westminster style of dealing with the Opposition. One thing that Westminster makes clear about Short money is that it should be made available to Her Majesty's loyal Opposition. It is perhaps only some two weeks since the first meeting of this Parliament, but I seem to remember the SNP refusing to be regarded in any way as a loyal Opposition for Her Majesty or for anyone else.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is the tenor which debate in this chamber is now beginning to get dragged into by party politics. It should not be happening. Members of this Parliament should be above such nonsense, and the whole debate this afternoon should be above the Westminster-style confrontational politics that we are seeing.

Let us deal with Short money. In Westminster terms, it is a modernising idea, and 1975 is like the day before yesterday. It is also a principle at the very heart of Westminster-style government. What we have here is an Opposition party that claims to detest Westminster politics, but which is trying to introduce Westminster-style ideas, Westminster- style thinking and a Westminster style of dealing with the Opposition. One thing that Westminster makes clear about Short money is that it should be made available to Her Majesty's loyal Opposition. It is perhaps only some two weeks since the first meeting of this Parliament, but I seem to remember the SNP refusing to be regarded in any way as a loyal Opposition for Her Majesty or for anyone else.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C703995", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 199.0, "ContributionID": 703995, "EditedText": "Will Mr McAllion give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr McAllion give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C703999", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 207.0, "ContributionID": 703999, "EditedText": "Give way.", "EditedTextHTML": "Give way.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1878E208P502C704001", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Dr Winnie", "ID": 1878, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Winnie Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Winnie Ewing (Highlands and Islands) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 211.0, "ContributionID": 704001, "EditedText": "Will Mr McAllion give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr McAllion give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2140E187P335C704011", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Rumbles, Mike", "ID": 2140, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Rumbles", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Mike Rumbles (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 236.0, "ContributionID": 704011, "EditedText": "The public funding of political parties is an important issue. All political parties in this chamber receive adequate political funding. My friend Donald Gorrie mentioned the good use to which we will all put that money, but what struck me was the sheer nerve of the Tories in talking about value for money. Annabel Goldie referred to the £90,000 plus of Short money that the Conservatives will get as a starvation diet of public money. As a group of individuals serving the Parliament, Conservative members may well receive in the region of £1 million of public money in allowances. In future, I will listen carefully to comments from that part of the chamber about the use of public money, so I hope that the Conservatives' language will be moderate. To show that I know how to be short, I will end by asking Annabel Goldie what, if £90,000 is her view of a starvation diet, her view of a good lunch is.", "EditedTextHTML": "The public funding of political parties is an important issue. All political parties in this chamber receive adequate political funding. My friend Donald Gorrie mentioned the good use to which we will all put that money, but what struck me was the sheer nerve of the Tories in talking

about value for money. Annabel Goldie referred to the £90,000 plus of Short money that the Conservatives will get as a starvation diet of public money. As a group of individuals serving the Parliament, Conservative members may well receive in the region of £1 million of public money in allowances.

In future, I will listen carefully to comments from that part of the chamber about the use of public money, so I hope that the Conservatives' language will be moderate. To show that I know how to be short, I will end by asking Annabel Goldie what, if £90,000 is her view of a starvation diet, her view of a good lunch is.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1916E38P70C704008", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Ben", "ID": 1916, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ben Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ben Wallace (North-East Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 228.0, "ContributionID": 704008, "EditedText": "I have to say to Mr Sheridan, from the other side of the chamber, that as a public servant I believe that I should stand for value for money for the people who put me here and who pay my wages. As a soldier, my wage was set by an independent pay review board. If such a board said that, as politicians, our wage should reflect the average, I would be happy to join Mr Sheridan in voting for that. Our concern is value for money and Short money is about providing an effective opposition. John McAllion talks about the new politics, but we should be talking about actions, not words. One judges people by their actions; a lack of consultation on the changes in Short money is a measure of the new politics in the Labour party. I will take no lectures from Mr Raffan when he talks about money and the Conservative party. For the past year I have been living off a war pension, after suffering an injury in Northern Ireland. I do not have a Bernie Ecclestone to bail me out. I do not have a friend with £379,000 to lend me so that I can buy a house, so I will take no sanctimonious lectures from new Labour. Short money allows people such as me, who are new to politics, to live by integrity and honour, which is what the new politics is about. It is about reminding us, as politicians, that people put us here to espouse integrity, honour and principle. It is rank for the Liberal Democrats, who have sold their principles, and the Labour party, which talks about things but submits them without consultation, to put forward these orders. I will support the orders because I want this Parliament to get up and go and to start working. However, I ask members to remember that Short money is a real issue that will affect us all and the way in which this Parliament will work.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have to say to Mr Sheridan, from the other side of the chamber, that as a public servant I believe that I should stand for value for money for the people who put me here and who pay my wages. As a soldier, my wage was set by an independent pay review board. If such a board said that, as politicians, our wage should reflect the average, I would be happy to join Mr Sheridan in voting for that. Our concern is value for money and Short money is about providing an effective opposition.

John McAllion talks about the new politics, but we should be talking about actions, not words. One judges people by their actions; a lack of consultation on the changes in Short money is a measure of the new politics in the Labour party.

I will take no lectures from Mr Raffan when he talks about money and the Conservative party. For the past year I have been living off a war pension, after suffering an injury in Northern Ireland. I do not have a Bernie Ecclestone to bail me out. I do not have a friend with £379,000 to lend me so that I can buy a house, so I will take no sanctimonious lectures from new Labour.

Short money allows people such as me, who are new to politics, to live by integrity and honour, which is what the new politics is about. It is about reminding us, as politicians, that people put us here to espouse integrity, honour and principle.

It is rank for the Liberal Democrats, who have sold their principles, and the Labour party, which talks about things but submits them without consultation, to put forward these orders. I will support the orders because I want this Parliament to get up and go and to start working. However, I ask members to remember that Short money is a real issue that will affect us all and the way in which this Parliament will work.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C704009", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan (Falkirk West): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 231.0, "ContributionID": 704009, "EditedText": "I seek clarification on one point regarding the drafting of the statutory instrument referring to financial assistance for political parties. I am pleased that the Lord Advocate is here—perhaps he would like to reply on this point or ask Mr McLeish to reply on his behalf. I assume that the Lord Advocate and his office were involved in the drafting of the statutory instrument that proposes amending paragraph 6 of part I of schedule 5 to the Scotland Act 1998 so as to devolve the power for making payments to any political party for the purpose of assisting members of this Parliament who are connected with that party to perform their parliamentary duties. What is the import of the word \"any\" in that context? The statutory instrument does not refer specifically to Opposition parties at all; it mentions \"any political party\". Was it deliberately drafted to allow public funds to be given to the Liberal party, or the Liberal Democratic party, or whatever it is called now? It is not a party of opposition; it is a party of government. Indeed, it seems to be hellbent on using its governmental power to grab some of the Opposition seats in this Parliament. Although I have a personal interest in that matter, I have no personal axe to grind on the broader issue of the funding of political parties. I am unique in this Parliament in that I am not a member of a political party. A certain political party is still hounding me for funding, despite the fact that it squandered a considerable fortune trying to prevent me from getting into this Parliament. That is by the way. I can look at the funding of political parties more objectively than any other member of this Parliament. I look forward to future debates, when we will be able to discuss the principles of this important matter. There is a case for the public funding of political parties in general, but we will come to that debate later. At this point, I am seeking clarification on whether the statutory instrument was drafted deliberately to accommodate the Liberal Democrats, so that they could qualify for public assistance.", "EditedTextHTML": "I seek clarification on one point regarding the drafting of the statutory instrument referring to financial assistance for political parties. I am pleased that the Lord Advocate is here—perhaps he would like to reply on this point or ask Mr McLeish to reply on his behalf. I assume that the Lord Advocate and his office were involved in the drafting of the statutory instrument that proposes amending paragraph 6 of part I of schedule 5 to the Scotland Act 1998 so as to devolve the power for making payments to any political party for the purpose of assisting members of this Parliament who are connected with that party to perform their parliamentary duties.

What is the import of the word \"any\" in that context? The statutory instrument does not refer specifically to Opposition parties at all; it mentions \"any political party\". Was it deliberately drafted to allow public funds to be given to the Liberal party, or the Liberal Democratic party, or whatever it is called now? It is not a party of opposition; it is a party of government. Indeed, it seems to be hellbent on using its governmental power to grab some of the Opposition seats in this Parliament. Although I have a personal interest in that matter, I have no personal axe to grind on the broader issue of the funding of political parties.

I am unique in this Parliament in that I am not a member of a political party. A certain political party is still hounding me for funding, despite the fact that it squandered a considerable fortune trying to prevent me from getting into this Parliament. That is by the way. I can look at the funding of political parties more objectively than any other member of this Parliament. I look forward to future debates, when we will be able to discuss the principles of this important matter.

There is a case for the public funding of political parties in general, but we will come to that debate later. At this point, I am seeking clarification on whether the statutory instrument was drafted deliberately to accommodate the Liberal Democrats, so that they could qualify for public assistance.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2112E192P495C704005", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacAskill, Kenny", "ID": 2112, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenny MacAskill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Kenny MacAskill (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 220.0, "ContributionID": 704005, "EditedText": "I support motion S1M-27 more in sadness than in anger. I referred before to what the CSG report said about the principles of openness and accountability in the Executive. That is in the past and I will not rake over old coals, but I say this to the Liberal Democrats: we ain't forgotten. We will return to that. The principles in the report are, as far as we can tell, being sold out just as they were sold out in smoke-filled rooms. They are being buried in small print. I address my remarks to the non-Executive Labour members. I heard what my colleague Mr McAllion said. I have never discussed this with my parliamentary group, but, having listened to him, I thought that I might volunteer myself as a sort of counterbalance to him, as the representative and embodiment of the new values of consensus and the new politics in Scotland. On that issue, I am undoubtedly the man. As Mr Harper is no longer here, I will move on from the discussions that I have had with him, as I would not want to talk about them in his absence. We are here to discuss legislation. Legislation can be dry and boring, but it can also be important. Innocuous legislation can have substantive and massive effects. After all, who would have thought that such a feeble-minded piece of legislation as the Abolition of Domestic Rates etc. (Scotland) Act 1987 would eventually have resulted in the melting-down of the so-called iron lady? We must examine critically two matters: first, the principles; secondly, the issues. My colleagues touched on the principles. Three types of legislation are being delegated: legislation that transfers power; legislation by which powers are supposed to be concurrent; and legislation about which there is supposed to be consultation. Like other members, I ask what concurrent means. According to Mr McLeish, we will soon be able to discuss the concordat. Well, that is very useful. I do not know how we can take literally the suggestion that things must be done simultaneously at Westminster and here—that the Secretary of State for Scotland and the First Minister must co-ordinate and dovetail. I have no doubt that the Government is on to a winner, even if we have difficulties with new technology here. I heard the secretary of state describe his front- bench team as including three PhDs and a millionaire—Scotland's strike force. Personally, I would rather stick with Billy Dodds. What does consultation mean? It means \"Ah telt ye\". That is the difficulty that we have faced in Labour-run Cabinet-type local government. Is that what we can expect here when there are differences between Westminster and the Scottish Parliament? The issues are fundamental. I see that my illustrious neighbour, the Solicitor General for Scotland, is here with his colleague the Lord Advocate. I will throw in a wee bit free legal advice. From my 20 years' experience as a solicitor, I know that the easiest way in which to examine legislation is to buy an annotated version. It is even better to get a guide. I do not know how many members picked up the guide entitled \"The Draft Scotland Act 1998 (Transfer of Functions to the Scottish Ministers etc.) Order 1999\". It deals with the specific effects of the legislation, some of which—detailed on pages 39 and 40—seems very innocuous, as did the Abolition of Domestic Rates etc. (Scotland) Act 1987. The guide describes the Sewerage (Scotland) Act 1968—doubtless, people who were provided with a student grant, by previous Governments, went to the wire over that back in the heady days of the radical 1960s. Section 37B of that act relates to \"The function of the Secretary of State to give directions specifying information to be excluded, on the grounds of national security, from a register maintained by a sewerage authority.\" Such are the matters—this is the first one—in which there is only concurrent jurisdiction, and on which we await a concordat so that we may have some influence; apparently, we can have influence only through a concordat. The guide also mentions the Control of Pollution Act 1974—from the heady days of a year in which there was a change of Government. Section 36(2B) of that act deals with \"The function of the Secretary of State to certify that, in the interests of national security, details of a discharge consent application should not be advertised.\" That is something fundamental that I would like to know about and that the people whom I represent in the Lothians would no doubt like to know about. It will, however, be subject to a concordat and will be available only if there is agreement between the secretary of state and the First Minister. Section 42A concerns\"The function of the Secretary of State to issue directions and make determinations concerning the exclusion, in the interests of national security, of information from registers maintained by SEPA.\" Well, lo and behold. That is something that I would have thought was fundamentally important and that many Labour members would have wanted to have above board rather than secreted away. On page 40, there is more such innocuous legislation—the Environmental Protection Act 1990, which was doubtless introduced in an attempt to improve our society as we move toward the next millennium. What do we find in sections 21 and 65? Again, we find legislation that is being treated as concurrent. Those sections concern \"The functions of the Secretary of State to issue directions and make determinations concerning the exclusion, in the interests of national security, of information from registers maintained by SEPA.\" If something is so important that it should be registered by the Scottish Environment Protection Agency, surely it should be available for all of us. I am conscious that time is moving on, but I want to comment on one more piece of legislation in this section: the Radioactive Substances Act 1993. Section 12 deals with \"The function of the Secretary of State to give directions to SEPA that, on the grounds of national security, knowledge of a particular application, registration or authorisation should be restricted.\" An organisation can make an application for the dumping of radioactive material and SEPA has an obligation to register it, but the First Minister may have no control over the direction given by the Westminster Government as to what should be disclosed. That is appalling. As time is of the essence, I move on to consultation. When we say, \"Ah telt ye\", what do we mean? Look at page 49 of the guide, which refers to the Food and Environment Protection Act 1985. What does that deal with? It deals with powers over which discussion is all that will be required. Ah telt ye, and that's it. Section 5 deals with\"The functions of the Secretary of State as licensing authority in relation to deposits of substances or articles in the sea or under the sea bed, the scuttling of vessels, loading with a view to such deposit and towing or propelling with a view to scuttling.\" More important, section 6 deals with\"The functions of the Secretary of State as a licensing authority in relation to incineration of substances or articles at sea or loading for that purpose.\" Those powers are not being disclosed to us. SNP members believe that is shameful. It maintains the culture of secrecy that comes from Westminster. All the fine words and rhetoric in the consultative steering group report will be going for a Burton when this transfer of powers takes place, because all those matters will be restrained or restricted. What about consultation on this matter? I know that many Labour members share the worries and fears of my SNP colleagues about the civil and military use of nuclear power and its effect on the environment. We are flagging up a problem that is covered by this legislation. We are asking members to think about what they are being led into by the inadequate powers that Westminster is devolving. In a nutshell, the past year is being sold, the powers are being sold out, and the Parliament and people are being sold down the Swanee. The SNP will support this legislation— Laughter.—but we are justifiably anxious about the restrictions that Labour is allowing to go through. Labour members may laugh, but our only options are to support or to reject the orders, and we will accept the modicum of powers that is provided. However, if Labour members think that the matters that I have flagged up are not worthy of public disclosure, they are failing in their duty to their constituents, never mind to the people of Scotland. Applause.", "EditedTextHTML": "I support motion S1M-27 more in sadness than in anger. I referred before to what the CSG report said about the principles of openness and accountability in the Executive. That is in the past and I will not rake over old coals, but I say this to the Liberal Democrats: we ain't forgotten. We will return to that.

The principles in the report are, as far as we can tell, being sold out just as they were sold out in smoke-filled rooms. They are being buried in small print. I address my remarks to the non-Executive Labour members. I heard what my colleague Mr McAllion said. I have never discussed this with my parliamentary group, but, having listened to him, I thought that I might volunteer myself as a sort of counterbalance to him, as the representative and embodiment of the new values of consensus and the new politics in Scotland. On that issue, I am undoubtedly the man. As Mr Harper is no longer here, I will move on from the discussions that I

have had with him, as I would not want to talk about them in his absence.

We are here to discuss legislation. Legislation can be dry and boring, but it can also be important. Innocuous legislation can have substantive and massive effects. After all, who would have thought that such a feeble-minded piece of legislation as the Abolition of Domestic Rates etc. (Scotland) Act 1987 would eventually have resulted in the melting-down of the so-called iron lady?

We must examine critically two matters: first, the principles; secondly, the issues. My colleagues touched on the principles. Three types of legislation are being delegated: legislation that transfers power; legislation by which powers are supposed to be concurrent; and legislation about which there is supposed to be consultation.

Like other members, I ask what concurrent means. According to Mr McLeish, we will soon be able to discuss the concordat. Well, that is very useful. I do not know how we can take literally the suggestion that things must be done simultaneously at Westminster and here—that the Secretary of State for Scotland and the First Minister must co-ordinate and dovetail. I have no doubt that the Government is on to a winner, even if we have difficulties with new technology here. I heard the secretary of state describe his front- bench team as including three PhDs and a millionaire—Scotland's strike force. Personally, I would rather stick with Billy Dodds.

What does consultation mean? It means \"Ah telt ye\". That is the difficulty that we have faced in Labour-run Cabinet-type local government. Is that what we can expect here when there are differences between Westminster and the Scottish Parliament?

The issues are fundamental. I see that my illustrious neighbour, the Solicitor General for Scotland, is here with his colleague the Lord Advocate. I will throw in a wee bit free legal advice. From my 20 years' experience as a solicitor, I know that the easiest way in which to examine legislation is to buy an annotated version. It is even better to get a guide. I do not know how many members picked up the guide entitled \"The Draft Scotland Act 1998 (Transfer of Functions to the Scottish Ministers etc.) Order 1999\". It deals with the specific effects of the legislation, some of which—detailed on pages 39 and 40—seems very innocuous, as did the Abolition of Domestic Rates etc. (Scotland) Act 1987.

The guide describes the Sewerage (Scotland) Act 1968—doubtless, people who were provided with a student grant, by previous Governments, went to the wire over that back in the heady days of the radical 1960s. Section 37B of that act relates to

\"The function of the Secretary of State to give directions specifying information to be excluded, on the grounds of national security, from a register maintained by a sewerage authority.\"

Such are the matters—this is the first one—in which there is only concurrent jurisdiction, and on which we await a concordat so that we may have some influence; apparently, we can have influence only through a concordat.

The guide also mentions the Control of Pollution Act 1974—from the heady days of a year in which there was a change of Government. Section 36(2B) of that act deals with

\"The function of the Secretary of State to certify that, in the interests of national security, details of a discharge consent application should not be advertised.\"

That is something fundamental that I would like to know about and that the people whom I represent in the Lothians would no doubt like to know about. It will, however, be subject to a concordat and will be available only if there is agreement between the secretary of state and the First Minister.

Section 42A concerns

\"The function of the Secretary of State to issue directions and make determinations concerning the exclusion, in the interests of national security, of information from registers maintained by SEPA.\"

Well, lo and behold. That is something that I would have thought was fundamentally important and that many Labour members would have wanted to have above board rather than secreted away.

On page 40, there is more such innocuous legislation—the Environmental Protection Act 1990, which was doubtless introduced in an attempt to improve our society as we move toward the next millennium. What do we find in sections 21 and 65? Again, we find legislation that is being treated as concurrent. Those sections concern

\"The functions of the Secretary of State to issue directions and make determinations concerning the exclusion, in the interests of national security, of information from registers maintained by SEPA.\"

If something is so important that it should be registered by the Scottish Environment Protection Agency, surely it should be available for all of us.

I am conscious that time is moving on, but I want to comment on one more piece of legislation in this section: the Radioactive Substances Act 1993. Section 12 deals with

\"The function of the Secretary of State to give directions to SEPA that, on the grounds of national security, knowledge of a particular application, registration or authorisation should be restricted.\"

An organisation can make an application for the dumping of radioactive material and SEPA has an

obligation to register it, but the First Minister may have no control over the direction given by the Westminster Government as to what should be disclosed. That is appalling.

As time is of the essence, I move on to consultation. When we say, \"Ah telt ye\", what do we mean? Look at page 49 of the guide, which refers to the Food and Environment Protection Act 1985. What does that deal with? It deals with powers over which discussion is all that will be required. Ah telt ye, and that's it.

Section 5 deals with

\"The functions of the Secretary of State as licensing authority in relation to deposits of substances or articles in the sea or under the sea bed, the scuttling of vessels, loading with a view to such deposit and towing or propelling with a view to scuttling.\"

More important, section 6 deals with

\"The functions of the Secretary of State as a licensing authority in relation to incineration of substances or articles at sea or loading for that purpose.\"

Those powers are not being disclosed to us. SNP members believe that is shameful. It maintains the culture of secrecy that comes from Westminster. All the fine words and rhetoric in the consultative steering group report will be going for a Burton when this transfer of powers takes place, because all those matters will be restrained or restricted. What about consultation on this matter?

I know that many Labour members share the worries and fears of my SNP colleagues about the civil and military use of nuclear power and its effect on the environment. We are flagging up a problem that is covered by this legislation. We are asking members to think about what they are being led into by the inadequate powers that Westminster is devolving. In a nutshell, the past year is being sold, the powers are being sold out, and the Parliament and people are being sold down the Swanee.

The SNP will support this legislation— [Laughter.]—but we are justifiably anxious about the restrictions that Labour is allowing to go through. Labour members may laugh, but our only options are to support or to reject the orders, and we will accept the modicum of powers that is provided. However, if Labour members think that the matters that I have flagged up are not worthy of public disclosure, they are failing in their duty to their constituents, never mind to the people of Scotland. [Applause.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C704006", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 222.0, "ContributionID": 704006, "EditedText": "A further seven members have indicated their wish to speak. If members keep their remarks tight, we will just about get them all in before Mr McLeish sums up at 4.50 pm.", "EditedTextHTML": "A further seven members have indicated their wish to speak. If members keep their remarks tight, we will just about get them all in before Mr McLeish sums up at 4.50 pm.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C704015", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 246.0, "ContributionID": 704015, "EditedText": "I will explain to Mr Rumbles that Annabel Goldie's suggestion that funds were insufficient was made in comparative terms: compare the many millions of pounds that support the Government—the Liberals and the Labour party—with the £90,000 that Opposition parties receive. Mr McAllion's speech was most unusual, because he and his party got into Government on the intemperate, inaccurate words that they used at Westminster. What stood out in his speech, above all, was his comment that members of the Opposition should sit here and keep their mouths shut. He might have supported that in the past— when he supported the socialist states in the Soviet Union—but we do not believe that that would be right for Scotland or right for democracy. I have two serious questions for the minister. First, he referred to changes in the health and safety inspectorate. Will those changes allow the Scottish ministers to change the rules for that body so that it will impose charges on the oil industry? Secondly, Mr McLeish mentioned the transfer of prisoners. Will the Scotland Act 1998 (Functions Exercisable in or as Regards Scotland) Order 1999 give him and other ministers the opportunity to control prisoners who have been deported to Scotland from other countries under parole conditions that were imposed in those countries?", "EditedTextHTML": "I will explain to Mr Rumbles that Annabel Goldie's suggestion that funds were insufficient was made in comparative terms: compare the many millions of pounds that support the Government—the Liberals and the Labour party—with the £90,000 that Opposition parties receive.

Mr McAllion's speech was most unusual, because he and his party got into Government on the intemperate, inaccurate words that they used at Westminster. What stood out in his speech, above all, was his comment that members of the Opposition should sit here and keep their mouths shut. He might have supported that in the past— when he supported the socialist states in the Soviet Union—but we do not believe that that would be right for Scotland or right for democracy.

I have two serious questions for the minister. First, he referred to changes in the health and safety inspectorate. Will those changes allow the Scottish ministers to change the rules for that body so that it will impose charges on the oil industry? Secondly, Mr McLeish mentioned the transfer of prisoners. Will the Scotland Act 1998 (Functions Exercisable in or as Regards Scotland) Order 1999 give him and other ministers the opportunity to control prisoners who have been deported to Scotland from other countries under parole conditions that were imposed in those countries?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C704019", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 256.0, "ContributionID": 704019, "EditedText": "I am coming to that.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am coming to that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C704017", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 252.0, "ContributionID": 704017, "EditedText": "John Swinney asked for an assurance that the Scottish ministers are not losing influence. He has that assurance. Our discussion relates to the Education (Student Loans) Act 1990. I have a fairly technical response that, with my usual courtesy, I will be happy to provide for him. He wanted to extend our debate to the greater issue of student funding, and I am confident that the Parliament will have an early opportunity to discuss that issue. The Scottish ministers are not losing influence. The administrative aspects of providing support to students in higher education are a devolved matter, but the Education (Student Loans) Act 1990 is a Great Britain enactment. The measure seeks to move that forward, with no diminution of influence, to come to an administrative arrangement to create a reasonable framework to deal with existing and future loans. The debate has raised a number of general issues. I echo the sentiment that we need to concentrate on issues and policies. I know that excitement has been generated by the set of orders that I put before the Parliament today—I did not think it would be. The orders seek to take the devolution settlement forward. Kenny MacAskill is simply and utterly wrong. He may be a good lawyer, but constitutional law is not one of his strong points. It is not one of mine either, but I can say that there is no attempt to pull wool over anyone's eyes. Taking Andrew Wilson's comment into consideration, I believe that we have a substantial devolved package, in addition to which we have executive devolution of matters that are reserved to Westminster. That adds to the package and the arrangement is not intended to give the impression that any of our powers have been undermined by some technical administrative orders. The other point that I want to stress is in answer to the SNP's question about Short money. We now have the legislative competence to deal with that. Is not that a step forward? Is not that what devolution is about? I hope that Mike Russell would agree with me. He warmly welcomes the fact that there is a new devolved measure in the orders, which provides for the parliamentary funding of parties in the Scottish Parliament. That is a step forward. Another point relates to the question of freedom of information, which was raised by Roseanna Cunningham. Anyone who reads the orders and the Scotland Act 1998 carefully will know that we have got another settlement that will allow the Scottish Parliament, in relation to Scottish bodies, to prepare its own freedom of information act. I hear people say that they want it to be better than at Westminster. Now we have the chance to do that. The Parliament should welcome the fact that the orders add to the powers that we already have.", "EditedTextHTML": "John Swinney asked for an assurance that the Scottish ministers are not losing influence. He has that assurance. Our discussion relates to the Education (Student Loans) Act 1990. I have a fairly technical response that, with my usual courtesy, I will be happy to provide for him. He wanted to extend our debate to the greater issue of student funding, and I am confident that the Parliament will have an early opportunity to discuss that issue.

The Scottish ministers are not losing influence. The administrative aspects of providing support to students in higher education are a devolved matter, but the Education (Student Loans) Act 1990 is a Great Britain enactment. The measure seeks to move that forward, with no diminution of influence, to come to an administrative arrangement to create a reasonable framework to deal with existing and future loans.

The debate has raised a number of general issues. I echo the sentiment that we need to concentrate on issues and policies. I know that excitement has been generated by the set of orders that I put before the Parliament today—I did not think it would be. The orders seek to take the devolution settlement forward. Kenny MacAskill is simply and utterly wrong. He may be a good lawyer, but constitutional law is not one of his strong points. It is not one of mine either, but I can say that there is no attempt to pull wool over anyone's eyes.

Taking Andrew Wilson's comment into consideration, I believe that we have a substantial devolved package, in addition to which we have executive devolution of matters that are reserved to Westminster. That adds to the package and the arrangement is not intended to give the impression that any of our powers have been undermined by some technical administrative orders.

The other point that I want to stress is in answer to the SNP's question about Short money. We now have the legislative competence to deal with that. Is not that a step forward? Is not that what devolution is about? I hope that Mike Russell would agree with me. He warmly welcomes the fact that there is a new devolved measure in the orders, which provides for the parliamentary funding of parties in the Scottish Parliament. That is a step forward.

Another point relates to the question of freedom of information, which was raised by Roseanna Cunningham. Anyone who reads the orders and the Scotland Act 1998 carefully will know that we have got another settlement that will allow the Scottish Parliament, in relation to Scottish bodies, to prepare its own freedom of information act. I hear people say that they want it to be better than at Westminster. Now we have the chance to do that. The Parliament should welcome the fact that the orders add to the powers that we already have.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C704018", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 254.0, "ContributionID": 704018, "EditedText": "Before Mr McLeish leaves the matter of Short money—", "EditedTextHTML": "Before Mr McLeish leaves the matter of Short money—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C704023", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 264.0, "ContributionID": 704023, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1878E208P502C704029", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Dr Winnie", "ID": 1878, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Winnie Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Winnie Ewing (Highlands and Islands) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 276.0, "ContributionID": 704029, "EditedText": "The minister must give way. We are the Opposition.", "EditedTextHTML": "The minister must give way. We are the Opposition.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C704032", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 282.0, "ContributionID": 704032, "EditedText": "That is not a point of order. Before we move to decision time, I ask Mr McLeish to move formally motions S1M-26 and S1M-27.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is not a point of order.

Before we move to decision time, I ask Mr McLeish to move formally motions S1M-26 and S1M-27.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C704037", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26601, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 287.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 287.0, "ID": 26601, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 291.0, "ContributionID": 704037, "EditedText": "The question is, that the motion be agreed to. Are we all agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "The question is, that the motion be agreed to. Are we all agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704038", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26601, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 287.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 287.0, "ID": 26601, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 293.0, "ContributionID": 704038, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704042", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26601, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 287.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 287.0, "ID": 26601, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 299.0, "ContributionID": 704042, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C704016", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 249.0, "ContributionID": 704016, "EditedText": "My colleagues Mr Wilson, Mr MacAskill and Roseanna Cunningham have raised a number of points about the orders affecting areas other than assistance to political parties. Mr Russell raised points about the assistance to political parties that arise from changes to schedules 4 and 5 of the Scotland Act 1998. It should be noted by the chamber that every Labour member who has spoken this afternoon, with the exception of Mr McLeish, of course, has talked about assistance to political parties. I have sat in the House of Commons for a couple of years and have listened to Mr McAllion's considered inputs to discussions there. When one listens to Mr McAllion delivering a speech of bile and rant to the chamber of the Scottish Parliament, one understands that the Labour party in this chamber has something to be defensive about in relation to the provisions that are being brought forward. Maybe that is why Mr McConnell, our distinguished, publicly funded Minister for Finance, was not prepared to engage in debate on the radio this morning with my colleague Mr Russell. I have debated with Mr Russell on many occasions, and he has a fearsome reputation, but he is not that bad in public debates. For Mr McConnell to be too terrified to go through the process suggests that he is not as courageous as Allan Wilson is in defending the allocations that have been made to the vast number of special advisers. Who are those advisers paid by? By the taxpayer. We will not take any lessons–absolutely none–from any Labour member, not least from Mr McAllion, who may be laughing now, but who will live to regret the comments that he put on the record this afternoon about the way in which public money has been used properly to support the democratic process in Scotland. I will address the Scotland Act 1998 (Functions Exercisable in or as Regards Scotland) Order 1999, where powers have been used under section 53 of the Scotland Act 1998. I seek some clarification from the minister on the implications of paragraph 11 in schedule 1 of that order. That paragraph relates to the powers of the former secretary of state concerning the Education (Student Loans) Act 1990 and gives ministers the power to execute the functions under that act that relate to past, current and future students whose home address is in Scotland. I want to press the minister on the thinking that underpins some of the points that have gone into paragraph 11. My interpretation is that the Scottish ministers will have no influence in executing functions in this area in relation to students from outwith Scotland who are studying at institutions in Scotland. That is particularly relevant to the debates that we are likely to have in the future, because there is a likelihood that some of the loans that are undertaken by students from outwith Scotland will include a component of tuition fees, either for the four-year duration of the course, or, more specifically, for the payment of the fourth- year anomaly that the Labour Government has inflicted on students from outwith Scotland. Some students who are studying at higher education institutions in Scotland may not come under the jurisdiction of Scottish ministers as they carry out certain functions of the powers that this order gives rise to. It is important that we remind ourselves of the issues that are at stake and of the significance of the fourth-year anomaly, which has yet to be resolved–just another anomaly that has yet to be resolved in higher education funding. First, only students from England, Wales or Northern Ireland run the risk of having to pay a fee for their fourth year at Scottish institutions. Scottish and European Union students will not be affected. Secondly, as a result of this measure there is a danger that a disincentive is created for students from outwith Scotland who wish to study in Scotland. Thirdly, students from outwith Scotland are responsible for an estimated £210 million of expenditure within the economy of Scotland. That is a sizeable input to the economy, which Scottish ministers seem to be allowing to slip out of their jurisdiction as a result of decisions that have been taken here. I am sure that Mr McLeish will respond to my points in his summing up by saying that we have a sensible geographic demarcation. Some SNP members are becoming sceptical about Mr McLeish and geographic demarcation, particularly in relation to fisheries, where he has let a bit of Scotland slip away from us already. He can clarify the Government's position on demarcation lines when he responds. Other views are worth consideration on the issue of demarcation. The Garrick report, which has been conveniently ignored in most of the Labour party's thinking on higher education funding, talked about the implications of tuition fees having to be considered for \"participants in Scottish higher education\".I stress \"participants\" as I want the minister to understand exactly the point that I am driving at. The 29th recommendation of the Garrick report lay a duty on the ex-Secretary of State for Scotland—the post that will be no more once those powers come to the Scottish Executive—to look after the interests of the \"participants in Scottish higher education\".Yet, as Mr MacAskill mentioned earlier, under this order, some of the powers over higher education institutions in Scotland are slipping away. New ground is opening up before us— almost as much ground as there is between Mr McLeish and Mr Stephen, his deputy minister, on the issue of tuition fees. There are many outstanding issues. Perhaps Mr McLeish could clarify the Government's thinking on the geographical point in the paragraph. It obviously relates to some of the points relating to the fourth-year anomaly that will be addressed by the inquiry to be chaired by Sir George Quigley, whose input we will consider carefully. I ask Mr McLeish to clarify the arrangements in this part of the schedule and to give us an assurance that the Scottish ministers are not losing influence over key parts of the academic community in Scotland. The confusion and uncertainty about the Government's position on student funding, higher education and support to the academic community is such that the point of geographical demarcation needs to be clarified beyond any reasonable doubt. We should not have to face further uncertainty and lack of clarity as the implementation of the order rolls forward.", "EditedTextHTML": "My colleagues Mr Wilson, Mr MacAskill and Roseanna Cunningham have raised a number of points about the orders affecting areas other than assistance to political parties.

Mr Russell raised points about the assistance to political parties that arise from changes to schedules 4 and 5 of the Scotland Act 1998. It should be noted by the chamber that every Labour member who has spoken this afternoon, with the exception of Mr McLeish, of course, has talked about assistance to political parties. I have sat in the House of Commons for a couple of years and have listened to Mr McAllion's considered inputs to discussions there.

When one listens to Mr McAllion delivering a speech of bile and rant to the chamber of the Scottish Parliament, one understands that the Labour party in this chamber has something to be defensive about in relation to the provisions that are being brought forward. Maybe that is why Mr McConnell, our distinguished, publicly funded Minister for Finance, was not prepared to engage in debate on the radio this morning with my colleague Mr Russell. I have debated with Mr Russell on many occasions, and he has a

fearsome reputation, but he is not that bad in public debates. For Mr McConnell to be too terrified to go through the process suggests that he is not as courageous as Allan Wilson is in defending the allocations that have been made to the vast number of special advisers.

Who are those advisers paid by? By the taxpayer. We will not take any lessons–absolutely none–from any Labour member, not least from Mr McAllion, who may be laughing now, but who will live to regret the comments that he put on the record this afternoon about the way in which public money has been used properly to support the democratic process in Scotland.

I will address the Scotland Act 1998 (Functions Exercisable in or as Regards Scotland) Order 1999, where powers have been used under section 53 of the Scotland Act 1998. I seek some clarification from the minister on the implications of paragraph 11 in schedule 1 of that order. That paragraph relates to the powers of the former secretary of state concerning the Education (Student Loans) Act 1990 and gives ministers the power to execute the functions under that act that relate to past, current and future students whose home address is in Scotland.

I want to press the minister on the thinking that underpins some of the points that have gone into paragraph 11. My interpretation is that the Scottish ministers will have no influence in executing functions in this area in relation to students from outwith Scotland who are studying at institutions in Scotland. That is particularly relevant to the debates that we are likely to have in the future, because there is a likelihood that some of the loans that are undertaken by students from outwith Scotland will include a component of tuition fees, either for the four-year duration of the course, or, more specifically, for the payment of the fourth- year anomaly that the Labour Government has inflicted on students from outwith Scotland.

Some students who are studying at higher education institutions in Scotland may not come under the jurisdiction of Scottish ministers as they carry out certain functions of the powers that this order gives rise to.

It is important that we remind ourselves of the issues that are at stake and of the significance of the fourth-year anomaly, which has yet to be resolved–just another anomaly that has yet to be resolved in higher education funding.

First, only students from England, Wales or Northern Ireland run the risk of having to pay a fee for their fourth year at Scottish institutions. Scottish and European Union students will not be affected. Secondly, as a result of this measure there is a danger that a disincentive is created for students from outwith Scotland who wish to study in Scotland. Thirdly, students from outwith Scotland are responsible for an estimated £210 million of expenditure within the economy of Scotland. That is a sizeable input to the economy, which Scottish ministers seem to be allowing to slip out of their jurisdiction as a result of decisions that have been taken here.

I am sure that Mr McLeish will respond to my points in his summing up by saying that we have a sensible geographic demarcation. Some SNP members are becoming sceptical about Mr McLeish and geographic demarcation, particularly in relation to fisheries, where he has let a bit of Scotland slip away from us already. He can clarify the Government's position on demarcation lines when he responds.

Other views are worth consideration on the issue of demarcation. The Garrick report, which has been conveniently ignored in most of the Labour party's thinking on higher education funding, talked about the implications of tuition fees having to be considered for

\"participants in Scottish higher education\".

I stress \"participants\" as I want the minister to understand exactly the point that I am driving at.

The 29th recommendation of the Garrick report lay a duty on the ex-Secretary of State for Scotland—the post that will be no more once those powers come to the Scottish Executive—to look after the interests of the

\"participants in Scottish higher education\".

Yet, as Mr MacAskill mentioned earlier, under this order, some of the powers over higher education institutions in Scotland are slipping away. New ground is opening up before us— almost as much ground as there is between Mr McLeish and Mr Stephen, his deputy minister, on the issue of tuition fees.

There are many outstanding issues. Perhaps Mr McLeish could clarify the Government's thinking on the geographical point in the paragraph. It obviously relates to some of the points relating to the fourth-year anomaly that will be addressed by the inquiry to be chaired by Sir George Quigley, whose input we will consider carefully. I ask Mr McLeish to clarify the arrangements in this part of the schedule and to give us an assurance that the Scottish ministers are not losing influence over key parts of the academic community in Scotland.

The confusion and uncertainty about the Government's position on student funding, higher education and support to the academic community is such that the point of geographical demarcation needs to be clarified beyond any reasonable doubt. We should not have to face further uncertainty and lack of clarity as the implementation of the order rolls forward.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:24:23.6870353+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C703963", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 125.0, "ContributionID": 703963, "EditedText": "On the approval of the concordats, Mr McLeish mentioned in his response to Mr Welsh that the Executive members had to sign the concordats. As it was far from clear from his earlier response, can he say whether those signatures will be added to the concordats only once this Parliament has approved the contents of the orders?", "EditedTextHTML": "On the approval of the concordats, Mr McLeish mentioned in his response to Mr Welsh that the Executive members had to sign the concordats. As it was far from clear from his earlier response, can he say whether those signatures will be added to the concordats only once this Parliament has approved the contents of the orders?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:23:24.0508186+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2180E179P471C703985", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lochhead, Richard", "ID": 2180, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Lochhead", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Richard Lochhead (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 176.0, "ContributionID": 703985, "EditedText": "Who exactly is paying for the Scottish Executive's special advisers if it is not taxpayers?", "EditedTextHTML": "Who exactly is paying for the Scottish Executive's special advisers if it is not taxpayers?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:44.0221047+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703891", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Wednesday 2 June 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26597, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26597, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 9.0, "ContributionID": 703891, "EditedText": "Meeting adjourned at 14:37.", "EditedTextHTML": "Meeting adjourned at 14:37.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C703893", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Wednesday 2 June 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26597, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26597, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 12.0, "ContributionID": 703893, "EditedText": "Members should now take their seats. Good afternoon. To begin the proceedings, I invite Mr George Reid to make a statement on the sad and untimely passing of Kenny Macintyre.", "EditedTextHTML": "Members should now take their seats.

Good afternoon. To begin the proceedings, I invite Mr George Reid to make a statement on the sad and untimely passing of Kenny Macintyre.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703899", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26599, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 24.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 24.0, "ID": 26599, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 28.0, "ContributionID": 703899, "EditedText": "Motion moved,", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion moved,

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703907", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26599, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 24.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 24.0, "ID": 26599, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 36.0, "ContributionID": 703907, "EditedText": "Debate on the following motions—", "EditedTextHTML": "Debate on the following motions—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703911", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26599, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 24.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 24.0, "ID": 26599, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 40.0, "ContributionID": 703911, "EditedText": "5.00 pm Decision Time Thursday 3 June 1999", "EditedTextHTML": "5.00 pm Decision Time Thursday 3 June 1999

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703912", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26599, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 24.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 24.0, "ID": 26599, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 41.0, "ContributionID": 703912, "EditedText": "2.30 pm Debate on the following motions— S1M-28 Mr Henry McLeish: That the draft Scotland Act", "EditedTextHTML": "2.30 pm Debate on the following motions— S1M-28 Mr Henry McLeish: That the draft Scotland Act

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703915", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26599, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 24.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 24.0, "ID": 26599, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 44.0, "ContributionID": 703915, "EditedText": "No later than 4.00 pm", "EditedTextHTML": "No later than 4.00 pm

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703916", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26599, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 24.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 24.0, "ID": 26599, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 45.0, "ContributionID": 703916, "EditedText": "Debate on the following motion—", "EditedTextHTML": "Debate on the following motion—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703924", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26599, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 24.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 24.0, "ID": 26599, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 53.0, "ContributionID": 703924, "EditedText": "12.30 pm Decision Time.—Mr McCabe.", "EditedTextHTML": "12.30 pm Decision Time.—[Mr McCabe.]
\n

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703933", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26599, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 24.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 24.0, "ID": 26599, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 72.0, "ContributionID": 703933, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C703927", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26599, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 24.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 24.0, "ID": 26599, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Alex Salmond (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 60.0, "ContributionID": 703927, "EditedText": "Will Mr McCabe give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "

Will Mr McCabe give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703935", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26599, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 24.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 24.0, "ID": 26599, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 76.0, "ContributionID": 703935, "EditedText": "FOR Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)Mackay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)(LD)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)AGAINST Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)Crawford, Bruce JP (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Mackay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)
(LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)

AGAINST

Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Crawford, Bruce JP (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703937", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26599, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 24.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 24.0, "ID": 26599, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 79.0, "ContributionID": 703937, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1888E265P358C703938", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26599, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 24.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 24.0, "ID": 26599, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morgan, Alasdair", "ID": 1888, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Galloway and Upper Nithsdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morgan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alasdair Morgan (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 80.0, "ContributionID": 703938, "EditedText": "On a point of order, Madam Deputy Presiding Officer. You may be aware that several bills that apply to Scotland and deal with matters that will be devolved to this Parliament on 1 July are going through Westminster. Those bills include the Access to Justice Bill, the Health Bill, the Pollution Prevention and Control Bill and the Youth Justice and Criminal Evidence Bill; there may be others that I have not found out about. I suspect that it is unlikely that those bills will all receive royal assent by 1 July. Has this matter been raised in the Parliamentary Bureau? Even if the content of those bills is innocuous—although I doubt that that is the case—surely it is setting a bad precedent for Westminster to legislate on matters that will be devolved to this assembly after 1 July and for it to continue to do so after 1 July.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order, Madam Deputy Presiding Officer. You may be aware that several bills that apply to Scotland and deal with matters that will be devolved to this Parliament on 1 July are going through Westminster. Those bills include the Access to Justice Bill, the Health Bill, the Pollution Prevention and Control Bill and the Youth Justice and Criminal Evidence Bill; there may be others that I have not found out about.

I suspect that it is unlikely that those bills will all receive royal assent by 1 July. Has this matter been raised in the Parliamentary Bureau? Even if the content of those bills is innocuous—although I

doubt that that is the case—surely it is setting a bad precedent for Westminster to legislate on matters that will be devolved to this assembly after 1 July and for it to continue to do so after 1 July.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703946", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 93.0, "ContributionID": 703946, "EditedText": "The Scotland Act 1998 (Cross-Border Public Authorities) (Adaptation of Functions etc.) Order 1999; and", "EditedTextHTML": "The Scotland Act 1998 (Cross-Border Public Authorities) (Adaptation of Functions etc.) Order 1999; and

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C703948", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 95.0, "ContributionID": 703948, "EditedText": "The question is, that motion S1M-30, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, be agreed to. Is that agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "The question is, that motion S1M-30, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, be agreed to. Is that agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C703951", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 100.0, "ContributionID": 703951, "EditedText": "The order to which I refer is the Scotland Act 1998 (Cross-Border Public Authorities) (Adaptation of Functions etc.) Order 1999. I did not come prepared to speak to that today, although it would only take me 10 minutes to obtain the document.", "EditedTextHTML": "The order to which I refer is the Scotland Act 1998 (Cross-Border Public Authorities) (Adaptation of Functions etc.) Order 1999. I did not come prepared to speak to that today, although it would only take me 10 minutes to obtain the document.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C703952", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 102.0, "ContributionID": 703952, "EditedText": "I can give you 24 hours as that order is not being debated until tomorrow. The next item of business is a debate on the approval of draft orders as detailed in the following motions: That the draft Scotland Act 1998 (Modifications of Schedules 4 and 5) Order 1999, which was laid before the Parliament on 26 May, be approved. That the draft Scotland Act 1998 (Functions Exercisable in or as Regards Scotland) Order 1999, which was laid before the Parliament on 26 May, be approved.That the draft Scotland Act 1998 (Transfer of Functions to the Scottish Ministers etc.) Order 1999, which was laid before the Parliament on 26 May, be approved.", "EditedTextHTML": "I can give you 24 hours as that order is not being debated until tomorrow.

The next item of business is a debate on the approval of draft orders as detailed in the following motions:

That the draft Scotland Act 1998 (Modifications of Schedules 4 and 5) Order 1999, which was laid before the Parliament on 26 May, be approved.

That the draft Scotland Act 1998 (Functions Exercisable in or as Regards Scotland) Order 1999, which was laid

before the Parliament on 26 May, be approved.

That the draft Scotland Act 1998 (Transfer of Functions to the Scottish Ministers etc.) Order 1999, which was laid before the Parliament on 26 May, be approved.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C703958", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 115.0, "ContributionID": 703958, "EditedText": "In relation to Andrew Welsh's latter point, we hope to be in a position to discuss that soon. As he will know, the concordats have been prepared for some time. However, they must be signed by the Executive and by the Westminster Government. I hope that we will be able to discuss the concordats reasonably soon. The order takes—", "EditedTextHTML": "In relation to Andrew Welsh's latter point, we hope to be in a position to discuss that soon. As he will know, the concordats have been prepared for some time. However, they must be signed by the Executive and by the Westminster Government. I hope that we will be able to discuss the concordats reasonably soon. The order takes—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C703960", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 119.0, "ContributionID": 703960, "EditedText": "I want to finish dealing with Mr Welsh before I deal with Mr Swinney.", "EditedTextHTML": "I want to finish dealing with Mr Welsh before I deal with Mr Swinney.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C703962", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 123.0, "ContributionID": 703962, "EditedText": "It is not intended to be ominous. This particular order looks at the different permutations of the transfer of powers, because some functions are dealt with by UK ministers, some are dealt with by Scottish ministers and some are dealt with concurrently. The mechanisms will be tied in to the provision— informally, we hope—because the order should identify those areas that are to be taken concurrently. That will be done by agreement between the Executive and the Westminster Government. That allows the opportunity for more substantial executive devolution to Scotland, especially when we can share decision making in relation to those concurrent powers.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is not intended to be ominous.

This particular order looks at the different permutations of the transfer of powers, because some functions are dealt with by UK ministers, some are dealt with by Scottish ministers and some are dealt with concurrently. The mechanisms will be tied in to the provision— informally, we hope—because the order should identify those areas that are to be taken concurrently. That will be done by agreement between the Executive and the Westminster Government. That allows the opportunity for more substantial executive devolution to Scotland, especially when we can share decision making in relation to those concurrent powers.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2123E103P242C703973", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Chisholm, Malcolm", "ID": 2123, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh North and Leith" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Malcolm Chisholm", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Malcolm Chisholm: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 148.0, "ContributionID": 703973, "EditedText": "After 1 July, this matter can be considered in different ways. A section 30 order is being laid, which will allow the Scottish Parliament to deal with assistance to Opposition parties, but we have to get the system up and running now. I am sure that the Opposition parties want this matter to be resolved immediately. The Westminster system is based on an allocation of money that is based on the number of seats and the number of votes—parties receive so much money for seats and so much money for votes. In this Parliament, the additional members—the list members—reflect the number of votes each party got. Using the Westminster system, the SNP would get £75,000 for their seats and £68,000 for their votes, making a total of £143,000. The Government has proposed £175,000. By a sleight of hand, the SNP is suggesting that, under the Westminster system, list members are the same as constituency members. In reality, the number of list members in this Parliament reflects the number of votes received—that is the whole point of the additional member system. Therefore, on the basis of the convention, the Opposition parties are getting substantially more than they would under the Westminster system.", "EditedTextHTML": "After 1 July, this matter can be considered in different ways. A section 30 order is being laid, which will allow the Scottish Parliament to deal with assistance to Opposition parties, but we have to get the system up and running now. I am sure that the Opposition parties want this matter to be resolved immediately.

The Westminster system is based on an allocation of money that is based on the number of seats and the number of votes—parties receive so much money for seats and so much money for votes. In this Parliament, the additional members—the list members—reflect the number of votes each party got. Using the Westminster system, the SNP would get £75,000 for their seats and £68,000 for their votes, making a total of £143,000. The Government has proposed £175,000.

By a sleight of hand, the SNP is suggesting that, under the Westminster system, list members are the same as constituency members. In reality, the number of list members in this Parliament reflects the number of votes received—that is the whole point of the additional member system. Therefore, on the basis of the convention, the Opposition parties are getting substantially more than they would under the Westminster system.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2123E103P242C703971", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Chisholm, Malcolm", "ID": 2123, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh North and Leith" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Malcolm Chisholm", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Malcolm Chisholm: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 144.0, "ContributionID": 703971, "EditedText": "I think I can see what Mr Gallie is saying. It is the old debate that we had two weeks ago about a partnership between two parties in this Parliament. I shall repeat what I said then. The new voting system that we set up was always unlikely to give absolute power to one party, so a partnership was always likely. I would also like to deal with convention. As is well known, I am in reactive mode when it comes to Westminster. I never want to stand here and defend what Westminster does, but the SNP has invited us to do so because it has made the charge that we have ignored convention in the allocation of Short money. It seems to me that that is not so.", "EditedTextHTML": "I think I can see what Mr Gallie is saying. It is the old debate that we had two weeks ago about a partnership between two parties in this Parliament. I shall repeat what I said then. The new voting system that we set up was always unlikely to give absolute power to one party, so a partnership was always likely.

I would also like to deal with convention. As is well known, I am in reactive mode when it comes to Westminster. I never want to stand here and defend what Westminster does, but the SNP has invited us to do so because it has made the charge that we have ignored convention in the allocation of Short money. It seems to me that that is not so.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C703974", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 150.0, "ContributionID": 703974, "EditedText": "Will Mr Chisholm reflect on the question put to him by Mr Salmond and on the fact that the seats referred to at Westminster are seats in the chamber, and that the seats referred to here are also seats in the chamber, not seats in terms of geographic area? Short money is intended to finance the functioning of a healthy Opposition— the 35 seats that my party takes up here. If Mr Chisholm cannot concur with that, why can he not concur with Mr Salmond's question? He is known as a man of independent mind: why can he not give us his personal view of why this should not go to the Neill committee?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr Chisholm reflect on the question put to him by Mr Salmond and on the fact that the seats referred to at Westminster are seats in the chamber, and that the seats referred to here are also seats in the chamber, not seats in terms of geographic area? Short money is intended to finance the functioning of a healthy Opposition— the 35 seats that my party takes up here. If Mr Chisholm cannot concur with that, why can he not concur with Mr Salmond's question? He is known as a man of independent mind: why can he not give us his personal view of why this should not go to the Neill committee?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1888E265P358C703977", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Morgan, Alasdair", "ID": 1888, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Galloway and Upper Nithsdale" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alasdair Morgan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alasdair Morgan (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 157.0, "ContributionID": 703977, "EditedText": "I am glad that Mr Gorrie is in favour of the Parliament considering this issue in the future. Does he accept that it will be much more difficult to change the system after 1 July, because it will require the Parliament to produce primary legislation, over which—quite frankly—the Executive will, by and large, have control?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am glad that Mr Gorrie is in favour of the Parliament considering this issue in the future. Does he accept that it will be much more difficult to change the system after 1 July, because it will require the Parliament to produce primary legislation, over which—quite frankly—the Executive will, by and large, have control?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C703982", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 169.0, "ContributionID": 703982, "EditedText": "Will Mr Raffan give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr Raffan give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1901E57P277C703984", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Allan", "ID": 1901, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Cunninghame North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Allan Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Allan Wilson (Cunninghame North) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 174.0, "ContributionID": 703984, "EditedText": "There has been much self-righteousness and indignation in this chamber and in the press about the principle of democracy when the real issue is the price of democracy. At issue is the use of taxpayers' money to fund political opposition. It seems to me that taxpayers resolved to fund this Parliament, but opposition is not limitless and the public purse is not bottomless. What has been proposed appears to be fair and reasonable to Opposition parties and taxpayers. The Opposition parties seem to want to have their cake—then more of that cake—and eat it. They cannot have it both ways: aping Westminster when the politics suits, but rejecting Westminster when it does not. The two systems are different. The Westminster system takes account of the fact that some parties, such as the SNP, get a lot of votes but few seats. The Scottish system is distinct. The number of seats is more closely proportional to the number of votes. The total amount of funding for Opposition parties being distributed in Scotland is broadly comparable to that distributed in Westminster. Transposing a new system from Westminster to Scotland would distort the existing system.", "EditedTextHTML": "There has been much self-righteousness and indignation in this chamber and in the press about the principle of democracy when the real issue is the price of democracy. At issue is the use of taxpayers' money to fund political opposition. It seems to me that taxpayers resolved to fund this Parliament, but opposition is not limitless and the public purse is not bottomless. What has been proposed appears to be fair and reasonable to Opposition parties and taxpayers.

The Opposition parties seem to want to have their cake—then more of that cake—and eat it. They cannot have it both ways: aping Westminster when the politics suits, but rejecting Westminster when it does not. The two systems are different. The Westminster system takes account of the fact that some parties, such as the SNP, get a lot of votes but few seats. The Scottish system is distinct. The number of seats is more closely proportional to the number of votes. The total amount of funding for Opposition parties being distributed in Scotland is broadly comparable to that distributed in Westminster. Transposing a new system from Westminster to Scotland would distort the existing system.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1901E57P277C703986", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Allan", "ID": 1901, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Cunninghame North" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Allan Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Allan Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 178.0, "ContributionID": 703986, "EditedText": "We debated the size of theScottish Executive the week before last and we agreed its size. Taxpayers will fund the Executive and it is right and proper that they should. I would not condone extravagance or waste by the Executive or by the Opposition parties. Our job is to reach agreement on a new system that is suitable for Scotland and reflects the political and constitutional settlement that is this Parliament. Perhaps the first thing we should do is dispense with the term Short money, as any analyst can clearly identify that no Opposition party is going to be short of cash—quite the contrary. That is as it should be: it is democracy and democracy has to be paid for. In another life, before I came here, I negotiated increases—usually increases—in wages and improvements in conditions for workers in the public sector. That was much more difficult during the Tory years. The arguments then were similar to those that we hear today; the merits of the claim must be set against the ability to pay. If I had negotiated a sixfold increase in public funding for my members I would be a hero and a popular figure among them—probably much more popular than the SNP appears to be with the Scottish people.", "EditedTextHTML": "We debated the size of the

Scottish Executive the week before last and we agreed its size. Taxpayers will fund the Executive and it is right and proper that they should. I would not condone extravagance or waste by the Executive or by the Opposition parties.

Our job is to reach agreement on a new system that is suitable for Scotland and reflects the political and constitutional settlement that is this Parliament. Perhaps the first thing we should do is dispense with the term Short money, as any analyst can clearly identify that no Opposition party is going to be short of cash—quite the contrary. That is as it should be: it is democracy and democracy has to be paid for.

In another life, before I came here, I negotiated increases—usually increases—in wages and improvements in conditions for workers in the public sector. That was much more difficult during the Tory years. The arguments then were similar to those that we hear today; the merits of the claim must be set against the ability to pay. If I had negotiated a sixfold increase in public funding for my members I would be a hero and a popular figure among them—probably much more popular than the SNP appears to be with the Scottish people.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C703987", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 180.0, "ContributionID": 703987, "EditedText": "Will Allan Wilson give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Allan Wilson give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C703993", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 195.0, "ContributionID": 703993, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1878E208P502C704003", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Dr Winnie", "ID": 1878, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Winnie Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 215.0, "ContributionID": 704003, "EditedText": "Coming from a European Parliament background of 24 years, I want to say that democratic funding for Opposition parties is not a Westminster but a European principle. The Opposition parties are funded in almost every one of our partner countries in Europe; it is also the principle that obtains in the European Parliament. Therefore, it is not the Westminster model but the normal democratic European model that we want.", "EditedTextHTML": "Coming from a European Parliament background of 24 years, I want to say that democratic funding for Opposition parties is not a Westminster but a European principle. The Opposition parties are funded in almost every one of our partner countries in Europe; it is also the principle that obtains in the European Parliament. Therefore, it is not the Westminster model but the normal democratic European model that we want.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C704012", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 238.0, "ContributionID": 704012, "EditedText": "That was indeed short, so we have time for a brief speech from Sandra White.", "EditedTextHTML": "That was indeed short, so we have time for a brief speech from Sandra White.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1865E219P509C704013", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "White, Sandra", "ID": 1865, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sandra White", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Sandra White (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 241.0, "ContributionID": 704013, "EditedText": "The word democracy has been much bandied about today, particularly by Labour members. Perhaps Mr Chisholm and Mr McAllion have forgotten about the so-called democracy that was bandied about within the Scottish Labour party—if so, they have very short memories. Mr McAllion's speech seemed to be all about \"do as we say or do as we do, or else\". Unfortunately, to me and to perhaps most of the people in the public galleries, democracy seems to have rolled over and died in this chamber since the formation of the Lib-Lab pact. The Labour party and the Liberal party in particular should be ashamed of themselves. They talk about effective opposition, but how can we have effective opposition if only the Liberal Democrat party gets any Short money? Why are the other Opposition parties not allowed to put forward their positions— not only the position of their parties but the position of the Scottish people who voted for them? This Parliament is supposed to be all about the Scottish people—the voters—and not about the Labour and Liberal parties getting together to form a pact so that they can deliver what is best for them. The people in the gallery today have seen what I would call anti-democracy at work. This is supposed to be a new Parliament, but we are debating the same old things. The Labour party tells us that everything is wonderful for it, but because we—the SNP, the Tories and the three independents—are in opposition, we get nothing while the coalition party gets everything. That is all I have to say.", "EditedTextHTML": "The word democracy has been much bandied about today, particularly by Labour members. Perhaps Mr Chisholm and Mr McAllion have forgotten about the so-called democracy that was bandied about within the Scottish Labour party—if so, they have very short memories. Mr McAllion's speech seemed to be all about \"do as we say or do as we do, or else\".

Unfortunately, to me and to perhaps most of the people in the public galleries, democracy seems to have rolled over and died in this chamber since the formation of the Lib-Lab pact. The Labour party and the Liberal party in particular should be ashamed of themselves. They talk about effective opposition, but how can we have effective opposition if only the Liberal Democrat party gets any Short money? Why are the other Opposition parties not allowed to put forward their positions— not only the position of their parties but the position of the Scottish people who voted for them? This Parliament is supposed to be all about the Scottish people—the voters—and not about the Labour and Liberal parties getting together to form a pact so that they can deliver what is best for them.

The people in the gallery today have seen what I would call anti-democracy at work. This is supposed to be a new Parliament, but we are debating the same old things. The Labour party tells us that everything is wonderful for it, but because we—the SNP, the Tories and the three independents—are in opposition, we get nothing while the coalition party gets everything. That is all I have to say.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C704014", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 243.0, "ContributionID": 704014, "EditedText": "I will take a similarly brief speech from Phil Gallie.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will take a similarly brief speech from Phil Gallie.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C704020", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 258.0, "ContributionID": 704020, "EditedText": "In that case, this will be a starter for ten. Will the minister explain why there was no consultation with the other parties before the levels were set in the Westminster order? Will he accept the view that if the matter were to be referred to the Neill committee it could be determined in a non-partisan manner when it is discussed and decided by the Scottish Parliament in the future? Will he support such a reference?", "EditedTextHTML": "In that case, this will be a starter for ten. Will the minister explain why there was no consultation with the other parties before the levels were set in the Westminster order? Will he accept the view that if the matter were to be referred to the Neill committee it could be determined in a non-partisan manner when it is discussed and decided by the Scottish Parliament in the future? Will he support such a reference?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C704021", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 260.0, "ContributionID": 704021, "EditedText": "It is very interesting that the Neill committee referred the question of detailed provision at Westminster to Westminster. What a sensible thing to do. It also recommended that the Scottish Parliament should consider what was appropriate here. As we will have the responsibility, I think it is important that we take it seriously. I will return to the issue of Short money in a moment. Phil Gallie raised a question about prisoners from abroad. Although Phil Gallie has been out of active politics for some time, he should know that we are working on that issue completely separately from anything contained in the orders. The problem of bringing prisoners back from other countries is a very vexed one. That matter is being addressed separately, and I hope that he will take my assurance on that. The Opposition, particularly the SNP, has had a wild few days on the issue of Short money. Tommy Sheridan made a valid point about public funds. After this settlement, £130,000 or so will be given to the SNP from Westminster, £175,000 will be given to the SNP from the Scottish Parliament, and that adds up to more than £300,000. The central question for the SNP is, what is it going to do with £130,000 at Westminster? Who is manning the fort? How will the money be spent? If we are talking about a financially prudent Parliament, we should be asking searching questions about how that particular section of cash will be used.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is very interesting that the Neill committee referred the question of detailed provision at Westminster to Westminster. What a sensible thing to do. It also recommended that the Scottish Parliament should consider what was appropriate here. As we will have the responsibility, I think it is important that we take it seriously. I will return to the issue of Short money in a moment.

Phil Gallie raised a question about prisoners from abroad. Although Phil Gallie has been out of active politics for some time, he should know that we are working on that issue completely separately from anything contained in the orders. The problem of bringing prisoners back from other countries is a very vexed one. That matter is being addressed separately, and I hope that he will take my assurance on that.

The Opposition, particularly the SNP, has had a wild few days on the issue of Short money. Tommy Sheridan made a valid point about public funds. After this settlement, £130,000 or so will be given to the SNP from Westminster, £175,000 will be given to the SNP from the Scottish Parliament, and that adds up to more than £300,000. The central question for the SNP is, what is it going to do with £130,000 at Westminster? Who is manning the fort? How will the money be spent? If we are talking about a financially prudent Parliament, we should be asking searching questions about how that particular section of cash will be used.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704033", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 284.0, "ContributionID": 704033, "EditedText": "Motions moved,", "EditedTextHTML": "Motions moved,

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C704024", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 266.0, "ContributionID": 704024, "EditedText": "I asked a simple question, I have given way once and I want to continue to address the issue of Short money.", "EditedTextHTML": "I asked a simple question, I have given way once and I want to continue to address the issue of Short money.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C704030", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 278.0, "ContributionID": 704030, "EditedText": "I hear a sedentary point about the Opposition. An effective Opposition should try to intervene, and I am always willing to allow interventions. Some £300,000 of public money is at stake. The point that the SNP led with was to wonder why Westminster was taking action on Short money. As we have no legislative competence at present, we could have taken the devolved power and waited until after July, and then entered into discussions. We would not have been able to start providing this so-called effective Opposition with money until after 1 July. In its infinite wisdom, Westminster decided, \"Let's put an order through Westminster. Let's help the SNP because they are so keen to be an effective Opposition.\" That is the charity of a Labour Government in Westminster seeking to ensure that the SNP can be an effective Opposition. I sincerely hope that these orders will be accepted. They are a way forward for Scotland and a way forward from 1 July, and I recommend them to the chamber.", "EditedTextHTML": "I hear a sedentary point about the Opposition. An effective Opposition should try to intervene, and I am always willing to allow interventions.

Some £300,000 of public money is at stake. The point that the SNP led with was to wonder why Westminster was taking action on Short money. As we have no legislative competence at present, we could have taken the devolved power and waited until after July, and then entered into discussions. We would not have been able to start providing this so-called effective Opposition with money until after 1 July. In its infinite wisdom, Westminster decided, \"Let's put an order through Westminster. Let's help the SNP because they are so keen to be an effective Opposition.\" That is the charity of a Labour Government in Westminster seeking to ensure that the SNP can be an effective Opposition.

I sincerely hope that these orders will be accepted. They are a way forward for Scotland and a way forward from 1 July, and I recommend them to the chamber.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C704036", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26601, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 287.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 287.0, "ID": 26601, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 289.0, "ContributionID": 704036, "EditedText": "I will put the questions on the motions discussed during the debate in the order in which they appear in the business bulletin. The first motion in the name of Henry McLeish is: That the draft Scotland Act 1998 (Modifications of Schedules 4 and 5) Order 1999, which was laid before the Parliament on 26 May, be approved.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will put the questions on the motions discussed during the debate in the order in which they appear in the business bulletin.

The first motion in the name of Henry McLeish is:

That the draft Scotland Act 1998 (Modifications of Schedules 4 and 5) Order 1999, which was laid before the Parliament on 26 May, be approved.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C704041", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26601, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 287.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 287.0, "ID": 26601, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 297.0, "ContributionID": 704041, "EditedText": "The third motion in the name of Henry McLeish is: That the draft Scotland Act 1998 (Transfer of Functions to the Scottish Ministers etc.) Order 1999, which was laid before the Parliament on 26 May, be approved. The question is, that the motion be agreed to. Are we all agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "The third motion in the name of Henry McLeish is:

That the draft Scotland Act 1998 (Transfer of Functions to the Scottish Ministers etc.) Order 1999, which was laid before the Parliament on 26 May, be approved.

The question is, that the motion be agreed to. Are we all agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C703961", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 121.0, "ContributionID": 703961, "EditedText": "That sounds ominous.", "EditedTextHTML": "That sounds ominous.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:23:24.0508186+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703887", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Wednesday 2 June 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26597, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26597, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 2.0, "ContributionID": 703887, "EditedText": "THE DEPUTY PRESIDING OFFICER opened the meeting at 14:30", "EditedTextHTML": "[THE DEPUTY PRESIDING OFFICER opened the meeting at 14:30]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C703888", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Wednesday 2 June 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26597, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26597, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ms Patricia Ferguson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 3.0, "ContributionID": 703888, "EditedText": "To begin proceedings for this afternoon—", "EditedTextHTML": "To begin proceedings for this afternoon—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2228E151P202C703890", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Wednesday 2 June 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26597, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26597, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McCabe, Tom", "ID": 2228, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Tom McCabe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Business Manager (Mr Tom McCabe): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 7.0, "ContributionID": 703890, "EditedText": "I shall move the following motion so that the problem with the sound system can be put right. Question, That the meeting be now adjourned, put and agreed to.—Mr McCabe.", "EditedTextHTML": "I shall move the following motion so that the problem with the sound system can be put right.

Question, That the meeting be now adjourned, put and agreed to.—[Mr McCabe.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703896", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Kenny Macintyre", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26598, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 14.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 14.0, "ID": 26598, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 20.0, "ContributionID": 703896, "EditedText": "Yes.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C703898", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26599, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 24.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 24.0, "ID": 26599, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ms Patricia Ferguson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 25.0, "ContributionID": 703898, "EditedText": "Before we move to the first item of business, I would like to make it clear that a revised version of today's business bulletin has been published. It includes motion S1M-30 in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, which is in the programme for this afternoon. The first item of business this afternoon is consideration of a business motion from the Parliamentary Bureau setting out a business programme. Consideration of that motion will take place in a moment; I intend to put the question on the motion no later than 10 minutes after it is moved. If the motion is approved, the business programme for the remainder of the afternoon will be as set out in today's revised business bulletin. I call on Tom McCabe to move the motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "Before we move to the first item of business, I would like to make it clear that a revised version of today's business bulletin has been published. It includes motion S1M-30 in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, which is in the programme for this afternoon.

The first item of business this afternoon is consideration of a business motion from the Parliamentary Bureau setting out a business programme. Consideration of that motion will take place in a moment; I intend to put the question on the motion no later than 10 minutes after it is moved. If the motion is approved, the business programme for the remainder of the afternoon will be as set out in today's revised business bulletin.

I call on Tom McCabe to move the motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703901", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26599, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 24.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 24.0, "ID": 26599, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 30.0, "ContributionID": 703901, "EditedText": "Wednesday 2 June that the following draft Orders—", "EditedTextHTML": "Wednesday 2 June that the following draft Orders—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703902", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26599, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 24.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 24.0, "ID": 26599, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 31.0, "ContributionID": 703902, "EditedText": "The Scotland Act 1998 (Modifications of Schedules 4 and 5) Order 1999;", "EditedTextHTML": "The Scotland Act 1998 (Modifications of Schedules 4 and 5) Order 1999;

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703905", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26599, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 24.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 24.0, "ID": 26599, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 34.0, "ContributionID": 703905, "EditedText": "The Scotland Act 1998 (Cross-Border Public Authorities) (Adaptation of Functions etc.) Order 1999; and", "EditedTextHTML": "The Scotland Act 1998 (Cross-Border Public Authorities) (Adaptation of Functions etc.) Order 1999; and

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703906", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26599, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 24.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 24.0, "ID": 26599, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 35.0, "ContributionID": 703906, "EditedText": "The Scotland Act 1998 (Border Rivers) Order 1999 be considered by the Parliament. followed by", "EditedTextHTML": "The Scotland Act 1998 (Border Rivers) Order 1999 be considered by the Parliament. followed by

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703908", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26599, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 24.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 24.0, "ID": 26599, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 37.0, "ContributionID": 703908, "EditedText": "S1M-25 Mr Henry McLeish: That the draft Scotland Act 1998 (Modifications of Schedules 4 and 5) Order 1999, which was laid before the Parliament on 26 May, be approved.", "EditedTextHTML": "S1M-25 Mr Henry McLeish: That the draft Scotland Act 1998 (Modifications of Schedules 4 and 5) Order 1999, which was laid before the Parliament on 26 May, be approved.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703910", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26599, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 24.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 24.0, "ID": 26599, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 39.0, "ContributionID": 703910, "EditedText": "S1M-27 Mr Henry McLeish: That the draft Scotland Act 1998 (Transfer of Functions to the Scottish Ministers etc.) Order 1999, which was laid before the Parliament on 26 May, be approved.", "EditedTextHTML": "S1M-27 Mr Henry McLeish: That the draft Scotland Act 1998 (Transfer of Functions to the Scottish Ministers etc.) Order 1999, which was laid before the Parliament on 26 May, be approved.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703914", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26599, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 24.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 24.0, "ID": 26599, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 43.0, "ContributionID": 703914, "EditedText": "S1M-29 Mr Henry McLeish: That the draft Scotland Act 1998 (Border Rivers) Order 1999, which was laid before the Parliament on 26 May, be approved.", "EditedTextHTML": "S1M-29 Mr Henry McLeish: That the draft Scotland Act 1998 (Border Rivers) Order 1999, which was laid before the Parliament on 26 May, be approved.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703919", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26599, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 24.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 24.0, "ID": 26599, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 48.0, "ContributionID": 703919, "EditedText": "2.30 pm Business Motion No later than 3.00 pm", "EditedTextHTML": "2.30 pm Business Motion No later than 3.00 pm

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703921", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26599, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 24.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 24.0, "ID": 26599, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 50.0, "ContributionID": 703921, "EditedText": "Motion on Members' Allowances", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion on Members' Allowances

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703922", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26599, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 24.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 24.0, "ID": 26599, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 51.0, "ContributionID": 703922, "EditedText": "5.00 pm Decision Time Wednesday 9 June 1999", "EditedTextHTML": "5.00 pm Decision Time Wednesday 9 June 1999

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703923", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26599, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 24.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 24.0, "ID": 26599, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 52.0, "ContributionID": 703923, "EditedText": "10.30 am Business Motion followed by Debate(s) on the Consultative Steering Group report and draft Information Strategy. followed by Motion on the Parliamentary Recess (to be taken without debate).", "EditedTextHTML": "10.30 am Business Motion followed by Debate(s) on the Consultative Steering Group report and draft Information Strategy. followed by
\nMotion on the Parliamentary Recess (to be taken without debate).
\n

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2228E151P202C703926", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26599, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 24.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 24.0, "ID": 26599, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McCabe, Tom", "ID": 2228, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Tom McCabe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Business Manager (Mr Tom McCabe): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 58.0, "ContributionID": 703926, "EditedText": "I will respond to some of Mr Russell's points in a few moments, although it may be helpful if I first summarise the exact content of the business motion. I prefix my remarks by saying that it is a matter of some moment if members of the Parliamentary Bureau are prepared to oppose a business motion after a decision has been reached; that requires serious consideration. Interruption. Another matter that requires serious consideration is whether certain non-Executive members should learn to show some manners when other members are on their feet; that could take us some way towards establishing a Parliament that is different from Westminster, which is what so many non-Executive members have spent so much time telling us we should do. The business motion sets out a programme of business for the Parliament up to and including 9 June. The Parliamentary Bureau intends this to be the first in a series of forward-looking motions, which in each case will normally span at least two weeks. It is proposed that the next business motion should be taken next week. The main business proposed for today and tomorrow is the consideration to approve five orders under the Scotland Act 1998. Under rule 10.1.3, the Parliament requires that these orders be considered by a full meeting of the Parliament, in the absence of the appropriate committee to which they would normally be referred. It is further proposed that, tomorrow, the Parliament should also debate the Scottish adjacent waters boundaries. In summary, the provisional business for the following week is that on 8 June the Parliament should debate motions on the establishment of committees and a motion on members' allowances. On 9 June, the Parliament should debate the consultative steering group report and the draft information strategy for the Parliament. In addition, there will be a motion to deal with the proposed summer recess. I should reiterate that the business motion is a decision of the Parliamentary Bureau and that that decision is taken by the business managers of all the parties. Specific reference has been made to the adjacent waters debate. The bureau agreed that an Executive motion was an appropriate means to introduce the topic for debate. That will afford all members the opportunity to debate the topic; it will not prevent any member from speaking, and it does not preclude the opportunity to amend the motion. Indeed, in bringing forward the motion, the bureau shows willingness to make use of all available plenary time during what is, after all, a transition period between now and 1 July, when we take on our full powers. The motion will be taken at a time that would usually be used for Executive business. If non- Executive parties wish to bring forward matters of concern, there are 15 half-day meetings in which they will have the opportunity to decide the topic for discussion. It is not the bureau's intention that this debate should in any way detract from the 15 half-day meetings each year for the non-Executive parties. The bureau will ensure that proper account is taken of the wishes of the non- Executive parties and that those 15 half-day meetings are available to them.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will respond to some of Mr Russell's points in a few moments, although it may be helpful if I first summarise the exact content of the business motion.

I prefix my remarks by saying that it is a matter of some moment if members of the Parliamentary Bureau are prepared to oppose a business motion after a decision has been reached; that requires serious consideration. [Interruption.] Another matter that requires serious consideration is whether certain non-Executive members should learn to show some manners when other members are on their feet; that could take us some way towards establishing a Parliament that is different from Westminster, which is what so many non-Executive members have spent so much time telling us we should do.

The business motion sets out a programme of business for the Parliament up to and including 9 June. The Parliamentary Bureau intends this to be the first in a series of forward-looking motions, which in each case will normally span at least two weeks. It is proposed that the next business motion should be taken next week.

The main business proposed for today and tomorrow is the consideration to approve five orders under the Scotland Act 1998. Under rule 10.1.3, the Parliament requires that these orders be considered by a full meeting of the Parliament, in the absence of the appropriate committee to which they would normally be referred. It is further proposed that, tomorrow, the Parliament should also debate the Scottish adjacent waters boundaries.

In summary, the provisional business for the following week is that on 8 June the Parliament should debate motions on the establishment of committees and a motion on members' allowances. On 9 June, the Parliament should debate the consultative steering group report and the draft information strategy for the Parliament. In addition, there will be a motion to deal with the proposed summer recess. I should reiterate that the business motion is a decision of the Parliamentary Bureau and that that decision is taken by the business managers of all the parties.

Specific reference has been made to the adjacent waters debate. The bureau agreed that an Executive motion was an appropriate means to introduce the topic for debate. That will afford all members the opportunity to debate the topic; it will not prevent any member from speaking, and it does not preclude the opportunity to amend the motion. Indeed, in bringing forward the motion, the bureau shows willingness to make use of all available plenary time during what is, after all, a transition period between now and 1 July, when we take on our full powers.

The motion will be taken at a time that would usually be used for Executive business. If non- Executive parties wish to bring forward matters of concern, there are 15 half-day meetings in which they will have the opportunity to decide the topic for discussion. It is not the bureau's intention that this debate should in any way detract from the 15 half-day meetings each year for the non-Executive parties. The bureau will ensure that proper account is taken of the wishes of the non- Executive parties and that those 15 half-day meetings are available to them.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2228E151P202C703928", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26599, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 24.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 24.0, "ID": 26599, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McCabe, Tom", "ID": 2228, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Tom McCabe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McCabe: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 62.0, "ContributionID": 703928, "EditedText": "I am not prepared to give way.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am not prepared to give way.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C703931", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26599, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 24.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 24.0, "ID": 26599, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan (Falkirk West): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 68.0, "ContributionID": 703931, "EditedText": "On a point of order. The starting time for our meeting on Wednesday 9 June 1999 is omitted in my printed copy of the business bulletin; it states that decision time will be at 12:30 pm but does not state at what time we are due to start. Perhaps Mr McCabe could advise us if that means that the motion, as it stands, is incomplete?", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. The starting time for our meeting on Wednesday 9 June 1999 is omitted in my printed copy of the business bulletin; it states that decision time will be at 12:30 pm but does not state at what time we are due to start. Perhaps Mr McCabe could advise us if that means that the motion, as it stands, is incomplete?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C703940", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ms Patricia Ferguson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 86.0, "ContributionID": 703940, "EditedText": "The next item of business is a debate on motion S1M-30, again in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, requesting that five affirmative orders relating to the Scotland Act 1998 should be considered by the Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "The next item of business is a debate on motion S1M-30, again in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, requesting that five affirmative orders relating to the Scotland Act 1998 should be considered by the Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703941", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 88.0, "ContributionID": 703941, "EditedText": "Motion moved,", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion moved,

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C703936", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Business Motion", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26599, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 24.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 24.0, "ID": 26599, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 77.0, "ContributionID": 703936, "EditedText": "The result of the division is as follows: For 66, Against 46. There were no abstentions.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result of the division is as follows: For 66, Against 46. There were no abstentions.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703942", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 89.0, "ContributionID": 703942, "EditedText": "That the Parliament agrees that the following draft Orders—", "EditedTextHTML": "That the Parliament agrees that the following draft Orders—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703944", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 91.0, "ContributionID": 703944, "EditedText": "The Scotland Act 1998 (Functions Exercisable in or as Regards Scotland) Order 1999;", "EditedTextHTML": "The Scotland Act 1998 (Functions Exercisable in or as Regards Scotland) Order 1999;

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703945", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 92.0, "ContributionID": 703945, "EditedText": "The Scotland Act 1998 (Transfer of Functions to the Scottish Ministers etc.) Order 1999;", "EditedTextHTML": "The Scotland Act 1998 (Transfer of Functions to the Scottish Ministers etc.) Order 1999;

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703947", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 94.0, "ContributionID": 703947, "EditedText": "The Scotland Act 1998 (Border Rivers) Order 1999 be considered by the Parliament.—Mr McCabe.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Scotland Act 1998 (Border Rivers) Order 1999 be considered by the Parliament.—[Mr McCabe.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703949", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 97.0, "ContributionID": 703949, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C703953", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 104.0, "ContributionID": 703953, "EditedText": "For the convenience of the Parliament, Mr McLeish will formally move only the first of those motions at this stage, but will speak on all three. I invite other members to speak on any individual motion, or on all three motions. The debate is scheduled to end at 5 pm, and will be followed by decision time, when questions will be put on the three motions. I will ask Mr McLeish formally to move his other two motions before questions are put. I do not propose to set any time limits for members' contributions, although I may review that towards the end of the time that has been allocated for the debate if a large number of members are still waiting to speak.", "EditedTextHTML": "For the convenience of the Parliament, Mr McLeish will formally move only the first of those motions at this stage, but will speak on all three. I invite other members to speak on any individual motion, or on all three motions.

The debate is scheduled to end at 5 pm, and will be followed by decision time, when questions will be put on the three motions. I will ask Mr McLeish formally to move his other two motions before questions are put. I do not propose to set any time limits for members' contributions, although I may review that towards the end of the time that has been allocated for the debate if a large number of members are still waiting to speak.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C703954", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning (Henry McLeish): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 107.0, "ContributionID": 703954, "EditedText": "When we listen to comments in the chamber, we are aware that there is tension and that there are frustrations; all of us want to get on with the job at hand. Huge responsibilities have been placed on each of us to make this Parliament a great success. Today, in what will not be a scintillating exercise, we have a chance to march forward with the orders that we are debating, because those orders form part of the legislative package that is required to deliver devolution for Scotland. The orders reflect the interface with Westminster and with the UK Government and require the agreement of this Parliament and of the UK Parliament. The Scotland Act 1998 (Modifications of Schedules 4 and 5) Order 1999 adjusts in a number of areas the matters on which the Parliament will have legislative competence, so as to extend or clarify the Parliament's powers. The Scotland Act 1998 (Transfer of Functions to the Scottish Ministers etc.) Order 1999 provides for what has become known generally as executive devolution, which is the devolution to the Scottish ministers of powers and duties in relation to reserved matters. It is important to note that these functions will be additional to those that relate to devolved matters, which will transfer to the Scottish ministers automatically by virtue of section 53 of the Scotland Act 1998. This draft order is concerned with the transfer of executive powers and duties in areas where primary legislation will continue to be a matter for Westminster. In exercising those functions, the Scottish ministers will, of course, be accountable to this Parliament. The Scotland Act 1998 (Functions Exercisable in or as Regards Scotland) Order 1999 assists in ensuring the proper devolution of functions to the Scottish ministers, either through section 53 of the Scotland Act 1998, because the functions relate to devolved matters, or by the executive devolution order under section 63. In particular, the order clarifies cases where there might be doubt about whether a function is exercisable as regards Scotland. This clarification is necessary to ensure that the relevant function will devolve. I will now deal with the draft orders in greater detail. First I will examine the order on modifications of schedules 4 and 5, which is to be made under section 30(2) of the Scotland Act 1998, which enables Her Majesty, by Order in Council, to modify schedules 4 and 5 of the act. Those schedules are central to the definition of the legislative competence of the Parliament, schedule 5 in particular, which lists the matters about which this Parliament cannot legislate. This draft order makes relatively minor modifications to the schedules. First, the order devolves competence to legislate about the funding of political parties to assist MSPs in the performance of their parliamentary duties, allowing the Parliament to devise its own arrangements. Secondly, the order reserves the functions of the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry that are exercisable through the Export Credits Guarantee Department. Thirdly, the order clarifies the Scottish Parliament's legislative competence on freedom of information. It does that by reserving competence to legislate about public access to information that is held by public bodies and office holders, except for information that is held by the Parliament, the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body, the Scottish Administration or Scottish public authorities that are under the control of the Scottish ministers. This Parliament will have competence to legislate about public access to such information, unless the information was supplied by a UK minister or department in confidence. Fourthly, the order clarifies the reservation of health and safety matters. The original reservation did not make a sufficiently clear distinction between the matters that are reserved and those that are devolved. The reservation is intended to cover areas relating to health and safety at work, including the Health and Safety Commission, the Health and Safety Executive and the Employment Medical Advisory Service. However, the Scottish Parliament is to have legislative competence over matters in related areas, such as building control, public health, general fire safety, protection of the environment, food safety, planning and public safety in places of entertainment.", "EditedTextHTML": "When we listen to comments in the chamber, we are aware that there is tension and that there are frustrations; all of us want to get on with the job at hand. Huge responsibilities have been placed on each of us to make this Parliament a great success. Today, in what will not be a scintillating exercise, we have a chance to march forward with the orders that we are debating, because those orders form part of the legislative package that is required to deliver devolution for Scotland. The orders reflect the interface with Westminster and with the UK Government and require the agreement of this Parliament and of the UK Parliament.

The Scotland Act 1998 (Modifications of Schedules 4 and 5) Order 1999 adjusts in a number of areas the matters on which the Parliament will have legislative competence, so as to extend or clarify the Parliament's powers.

The Scotland Act 1998 (Transfer of Functions to the Scottish Ministers etc.) Order 1999 provides for what has become known generally as executive devolution, which is the devolution to the Scottish ministers of powers and duties in relation to reserved matters. It is important to note that these functions will be additional to those that relate to devolved matters, which will transfer to the Scottish ministers automatically by virtue of section 53 of the Scotland Act 1998. This draft order is concerned with the transfer of executive powers and duties in areas where primary legislation will continue to be a matter for Westminster. In exercising those functions, the Scottish ministers will, of course, be accountable to this Parliament.

The Scotland Act 1998 (Functions Exercisable in or as Regards Scotland) Order 1999 assists in ensuring the proper devolution of functions to the Scottish ministers, either through section 53 of the Scotland Act 1998, because the functions relate to devolved matters, or by the executive devolution order under section 63. In particular, the order clarifies cases where there might be doubt about whether a function is exercisable as regards Scotland. This clarification is necessary to ensure that the relevant function will devolve. I will now deal with the draft orders in greater detail.

First I will examine the order on modifications of schedules 4 and 5, which is to be made under section 30(2) of the Scotland Act 1998, which enables Her Majesty, by Order in Council, to modify schedules 4 and 5 of the act. Those schedules are central to the definition of the legislative competence of the Parliament, schedule 5 in particular, which lists the matters about which this Parliament cannot legislate.

This draft order makes relatively minor modifications to the schedules.

First, the order devolves competence to legislate about the funding of political parties to assist MSPs in the performance of their parliamentary duties, allowing the Parliament to devise its own arrangements.

Secondly, the order reserves the functions of the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry that are exercisable through the Export Credits Guarantee Department.

Thirdly, the order clarifies the Scottish Parliament's legislative competence on freedom of information. It does that by reserving competence to legislate about public access to information that is held by public bodies and office holders, except for information that is held by the Parliament, the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body, the Scottish Administration or Scottish public authorities that are under the control of the Scottish ministers. This Parliament will have competence to legislate about public access to such information, unless the information was supplied by a UK minister or department in confidence.

Fourthly, the order clarifies the reservation of health and safety matters. The original reservation did not make a sufficiently clear distinction between the matters that are reserved and those that are devolved. The reservation is intended to cover areas relating to health and safety at work, including the Health and Safety Commission, the Health and Safety Executive and the Employment Medical Advisory Service. However, the Scottish Parliament is to have legislative competence over matters in related areas, such as building control, public health, general fire safety, protection of the environment, food safety, planning and public safety in places of entertainment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C703956", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 111.0, "ContributionID": 703956, "EditedText": "That point is well made, but we are in historically unusual circumstances. This is the first time in 300 years that we have passed major powers from one Parliament to another. The method that we have adopted to do that is democratic and relevant. It allows us to flesh out the Scotland Act 1998 by the respective orders. I hope that, after 1 July, when we discuss matters of importance, we will not have these rather voluminous orders, but will be able to debate issues on their merits in a more informative way. The final reason that the draft order makes modifications to the schedules is to introduce a minor exception from the reservation of interception of communications. That is necessary to ensure that the reservation does not unintentionally affect existing provision for the interception of the correspondence of a patient in a mental hospital or a prisoner's telephone conversation. The Scotland Act 1998 (Functions Exercisable in or as Regards Scotland) Order 1999 relates to section 30(3) of the Scotland Act 1998. Its purpose is to clarify matters, which will be necessary unless we have had experience of the Scotland Act 1998—I know that many members have. Section 53 of the Act provides for the legislative competence on devolved powers to come to the Parliament. It also allows matters that are important in or as regards Scotland, which become the focus for executive devolution on reserved matters, also to come to this Parliament. In that sense we are talking about executive devolution, which is a substantial addition to the powers that we have in terms of legislative competence. As always, the order contains a very simple phrase, which means not a little to most. It is essentially a technical order. It provides for various functions to be treated as being exercisable or as not being exercisable \"in or as regards Scotland\", for various purposes of the Scotland Act 1998, in particular the transfer of ministerial functions. The order is necessary because the Parliament can only legislate to confer or to remove functions exercisable \"in or as regards Scotland\" and because only those functions can transfer to the Scottish ministers under section 53 of the Scotland Act 1998 or under the executive devolution order, which I shall talk about shortly. In the majority of cases, it will be clear that functions will be exercisable in or as regards Scotland. However, there will be some cases where the connection with Scotland may be unclear. An example of that is when a prisoner is transferred from one jurisdiction to another and it might be unclear which ministers should deal with matters such as parole. The order provides that prisoners who are sentenced in Scotland will continue to be subject to the Scottish system, even if they are transferred to prisons elsewhere. Other examples are the regulation of fishing, the implementation of European Community agriculture obligations, the provision of student loans and the interception of communications. The executive devolution order contains provisions for the Scottish ministers to be consulted on or to agree to appointments of persons to United Kingdom or Great Britain bodies. The order also ensures that a function is treated as being exercisable in or as regards Scotland for the purposes of executive devolution; otherwise, the effect of the order would be unclear. I am conscious that for most people in the Parliament the order may still be very unclear. I will now deal with the third order, which is the transfer of functions to the Scottish ministers order, known as the executive devolution order. This order, which is made under section 63 of the Scotland Act 1998, gives effect to the white paper commitment that the Scottish Executive will be responsible for carrying out functions in areas in which law-making powers are reserved. That is referred to as executive devolution. Any function of a UK minister, so far as it is exercisable in or as regards Scotland, can be executively devolved under section 63. That applies to statutory or non-statutory functions, including the power to make subordinate legislation. The order also provides for specified functions of UK ministers to be exercisable only with the agreement of, after consultation with, or concurrently with Scottish ministers. It might be helpful if I outlined the key provisions of the order. Schedule 1 specifies the functions that are to be exercisable by the Scottish ministers instead of by the UK minister. Schedule 2 specifies the functions that are to be exercisable by the Scottish ministers concurrently with the UK minister. Schedule 3 specifies functions to be exercisable by a UK minister only with the agreement of, or after consultation with, the Scottish ministers.", "EditedTextHTML": "That point is well made, but we are in historically unusual circumstances. This is the first time in 300 years that we have passed major powers from one Parliament to another. The method that we have adopted to do that is democratic and relevant. It allows us to flesh out the Scotland Act 1998 by the respective orders. I hope that, after 1 July, when we discuss matters of importance, we will not have these rather voluminous orders, but will be able to debate issues on their merits in a more informative way.

The final reason that the draft order makes modifications to the schedules is to introduce a minor exception from the reservation of interception of communications. That is necessary to ensure that the reservation does not unintentionally affect existing provision for the interception of the correspondence of a patient in a mental hospital or a prisoner's telephone conversation.

The Scotland Act 1998 (Functions Exercisable in or as Regards Scotland) Order 1999 relates to section 30(3) of the Scotland Act 1998. Its purpose is to clarify matters, which will be necessary unless we have had experience of the Scotland Act 1998—I know that many members have. Section 53 of the Act provides for the legislative competence on devolved powers to come to the Parliament. It also allows matters that are important in or as regards Scotland, which become the focus for executive devolution on reserved matters, also to come to this Parliament.

In that sense we are talking about executive devolution, which is a substantial addition to the powers that we have in terms of legislative competence. As always, the order contains a very simple phrase, which means not a little to most. It is essentially a technical order. It provides for various functions to be treated as being exercisable or as not being exercisable \"in or as regards Scotland\", for various purposes of the Scotland Act 1998, in particular the transfer of ministerial functions. The order is necessary because the Parliament can only legislate to confer or to remove functions exercisable \"in or as regards Scotland\" and because only those functions can transfer to the Scottish ministers under section 53 of the Scotland Act 1998 or under the executive devolution order, which I shall talk about shortly.

In the majority of cases, it will be clear that functions will be exercisable in or as regards Scotland. However, there will be some cases where the connection with Scotland may be unclear. An example of that is when a prisoner is transferred from one jurisdiction to another and it might be unclear which ministers should deal with matters such as parole. The order provides that prisoners who are sentenced in Scotland will continue to be subject to the Scottish system, even if they are transferred to prisons elsewhere. Other examples are the regulation of fishing, the implementation of European Community agriculture obligations, the provision of student loans and the interception of communications.

The executive devolution order contains provisions for the Scottish ministers to be consulted on or to agree to appointments of persons to United Kingdom or Great Britain bodies. The order also ensures that a function is treated as being exercisable in or as regards Scotland for the purposes of executive devolution; otherwise, the effect of the order would be unclear. I am conscious that for most people in the Parliament the order may still be very unclear.

I will now deal with the third order, which is the transfer of functions to the Scottish ministers order, known as the executive devolution order. This order, which is made under section 63 of the Scotland Act 1998, gives effect to the white paper commitment that the Scottish Executive will be responsible for carrying out functions in areas in which law-making powers are reserved. That is referred to as executive devolution. Any function of a UK minister, so far as it is exercisable in or as regards Scotland, can be executively devolved under section 63. That applies to statutory or non-statutory functions, including the power to make subordinate legislation. The order also provides for specified functions of UK ministers to be exercisable only with the agreement of, after consultation with, or concurrently with Scottish ministers.

It might be helpful if I outlined the key provisions of the order. Schedule 1 specifies the functions that are to be exercisable by the Scottish ministers instead of by the UK minister. Schedule 2 specifies the functions that are to be exercisable by the Scottish ministers concurrently with the UK minister. Schedule 3 specifies functions to be exercisable by a UK minister only with the agreement of, or after consultation with, the

Scottish ministers.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1906E278P355C703959", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Welsh, Andrew", "ID": 1906, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Angus" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Welsh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Welsh rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 117.0, "ContributionID": 703959, "EditedText": "Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP)rose—", "EditedTextHTML": "

Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP)

rose—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C703964", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 127.0, "ContributionID": 703964, "EditedText": "I confirm to Mr Swinney that the position remains unclear. The concordats deal with areas of government where we need agreements—a working framework for how we take the devolution settlement forward. None of the concordats can be implemented, or act as a working framework, until the Westminster Government and the Executive sign and approve them. At this stage, I am not sure what mechanisms will exist for the Parliament and its members to discuss and debate those issues. However, with my usual courtesy, I would like to get back to Mr Swinney, in order to confirm what the process for implementing the concordats will be. Schedule 4, which concludes the sequence of arrangements between the Executive and the UK Government, specifies certain non-statutory functions to be carried out by the Scottish ministers instead of the UK minister. The functions covered by this order are explained in detail in the guide to the order, which has been made available to members. Examples of those functions include: providing and administering public sector pension schemes; appointment of members and provision for procedural rules for tribunals operating in Scotland; and functions that relate to national lottery bodies. That is only an insight into a whole range of different types of provision that will be covered by the order. I do not propose to take up members' time by going into more detail on the content of these orders. If possible, I will try to respond to any questions that members may ask. The draft orders are essentially technical in nature. They build on the provision made by the Scotland Act 1998 and make adjustments at the edges of the devolution settlement. I ask the Parliament to approve these draft orders, which will complete the framework for a smooth transition of power on 1 July. I move,That the draft Scotland Act 1998 (Modifications of Schedules 4 and 5) Order 1999, which was laid before the Parliament on 26 May, be approved.", "EditedTextHTML": "I confirm to Mr Swinney that the position remains unclear. The concordats deal with areas of government where we need agreements—a working framework for how we take the devolution settlement forward. None of the concordats can be implemented, or act as a working framework, until the Westminster Government and the Executive sign and approve them. At this stage, I am not sure what mechanisms will exist for the Parliament and its members to discuss and debate those issues. However, with my usual courtesy, I would like to get back to Mr Swinney, in order to confirm what the process for implementing the concordats will be.

Schedule 4, which concludes the sequence of arrangements between the Executive and the UK Government, specifies certain non-statutory functions to be carried out by the Scottish ministers instead of the UK minister.

The functions covered by this order are explained in detail in the guide to the order, which has been made available to members. Examples of those functions include: providing and administering public sector pension schemes; appointment of members and provision for procedural rules for tribunals operating in Scotland; and functions that relate to national lottery bodies. That is only an insight into a whole range of different types of provision that will be covered by the order.

I do not propose to take up members' time by going into more detail on the content of these orders. If possible, I will try to respond to any questions that members may ask. The draft orders are essentially technical in nature. They build on the provision made by the Scotland Act 1998 and make adjustments at the edges of the devolution settlement. I ask the Parliament to approve these draft orders, which will complete the framework for a smooth transition of power on 1 July.

I move,

That the draft Scotland Act 1998 (Modifications of Schedules 4 and 5) Order 1999, which was laid before the Parliament on 26 May, be approved.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C703966", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie (Lothians) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 133.0, "ContributionID": 703966, "EditedText": "Scottish Conservative members welcome the first order, which modifies schedules 4 and 5 of the Scotland Act 1998. We particularly welcome article 2, to which Mr Russell referred. As Mr Russell pointed out, when the order was laid here, a draft order was laid at Westminster which governs financial assistance for registered political parties. When approved, it will govern arrangements for political parties in this Parliament, pending any subsequent change in the law. The Conservatives believe that the Westminster order is an affront to this Parliament and flies in the face of the Neill committee recommendations on the provision of Short money, which Mrs Margaret Beckett, the Leader of the House of Commons, was quick to endorse enthusiastically in a Westminster context. In the debate on this subject in the House of Commons, she boasted that the Government had thoroughly honoured the principal outcome of the Neill committee's work and went on to declare proudly that \"Parliament will be stronger as a result\".—Official Report, House of Commons, 26 May 1999; Vol 332, c 428. What is good enough for Westminster is apparently not good enough for the Scottish Parliament, and the apparent altruism of Her Majesty's Government is only skin deep. In Westminster, Labour can afford to be generous as it is backed—at least for the time being—by a large parliamentary majority. In Scotland, Labour is doing everything it can to suppress opposition to its unprincipled coalition with the Liberal Democrats. Not for us the fair hand of Mrs Beckett, but the devious and partisan hand of the Scottish Executive, whose grubby fingerprints are all over the Scottish Short money order. In short, parliamentary democracy is being short changed in Scotland on Short money. The deliberations of 22 ministers and law officers are being assisted by the employment of up to a dozen special advisers at a cost to the public purse of more than £500,000. It is remarkable that barely half that sum is to be granted to genuine and authentic Opposition parties in this Parliament to enable us better to perform our duty to subject the Executive to scrutiny and hold it to account. Lord Neill addressed that imbalance at Westminster, but the Scottish Executive is determined to perpetuate it here. It bears all the hallmarks of the Labour-run councils that Mr McCabe and others are so intimately acquainted with. The biggest scandal of all on this subject is the sleight of hand that will grant funding in this Parliament to the Liberal Democrats, which is a party of government—not a party of opposition— and should be ashamed of itself. I have to say to Mr Wallace who, unfortunately, is not with us at the moment, Mr Finnie and their friends, who are too ashamed to be here: are the Liberal Democrats not content with portfolios, titles, special advisers, the perks and privileges of office and the resources of the Scottish Office, which are now theirs to command? Why is it necessary to rip the Scottish taxpayer off by another £65,000 so that the pretend party can be a pretend Opposition? Are the Liberal Democrats not ashamed of themselves? Do they have no principles and integrity left? The Liberal Democrats in this Parliament are the boys from the folding stuff. It is not just gizza job—it is gie us the money as well. If they have any self-respect, they should decline this pathetic bribe as even a Liberal lapdog cannot run with the hare and hunt with the hounds at the same time. I welcome the transfer to this Parliament of legislative competence for these matters and—like Mr Russell—hope that before long fresh proposals will come before this chamber to remove this stain on our reputation for fair play. Mr Russell's suggestion that this matter should be referred to Lord Neill and his committee for consideration is sensible and worthy of further exploration. When they contested the recent election in Scotland, all the parties in the chamber were happy to sign up to a voluntary code of conduct on election spending, which was supervised independently in line with the principles set out by the Neill committee. It seems sensible that we should take this matter forward on the same consensual basis. I have no particular comment to make on the second order, but I am sure that the Parliament would be disappointed if I did not observe that the executive responsibilities that the third order transfers to our new Administration were more than competently exercised by a team of five Scottish Office ministers barely two years ago. Those responsibilities now seem to require the attention of four times that number of ministers and two law officers in our £5 million Government. I suggest to our new Minister for Finance, Mr McConnell, who has also left the chamber—", "EditedTextHTML": "Scottish Conservative members welcome the first order, which modifies schedules 4 and 5 of the Scotland Act 1998. We particularly welcome article 2, to which Mr Russell referred.

As Mr Russell pointed out, when the order was laid here, a draft order was laid at Westminster which governs financial assistance for registered political parties. When approved, it will govern arrangements for political parties in this Parliament, pending any subsequent change in the law.

The Conservatives believe that the Westminster order is an affront to this Parliament and flies in the face of the Neill committee recommendations on the provision of Short money, which Mrs Margaret Beckett, the Leader of the House of Commons, was quick to endorse enthusiastically in a Westminster context. In the debate on this subject in the House of Commons, she boasted that the Government had thoroughly honoured the principal outcome of the Neill committee's work and went on to declare proudly that

\"Parliament will be stronger as a result\".—[Official Report, House of Commons, 26 May 1999; Vol 332, c 428.]

What is good enough for Westminster is apparently not good enough for the Scottish Parliament, and the apparent altruism of Her Majesty's Government is only skin deep. In Westminster, Labour can afford to be generous as it is backed—at least for the time being—by a large parliamentary majority. In Scotland, Labour is doing everything it can to suppress opposition to its unprincipled coalition with the Liberal Democrats. Not for us the fair hand of Mrs Beckett, but the devious and partisan hand of the Scottish Executive, whose grubby fingerprints are all over the Scottish Short money order. In short, parliamentary democracy is being short changed in Scotland on Short money.

The deliberations of 22 ministers and law officers are being assisted by the employment of up to a dozen special advisers at a cost to the public purse of more than £500,000. It is remarkable that barely half that sum is to be granted to genuine and authentic Opposition parties in this Parliament to enable us better to perform our duty to subject the Executive to scrutiny and hold it to account. Lord Neill addressed that imbalance at Westminster, but the Scottish Executive is determined to perpetuate it here. It bears all the hallmarks of the Labour-run councils that Mr McCabe and others are so intimately acquainted with.

The biggest scandal of all on this subject is the sleight of hand that will grant funding in this Parliament to the Liberal Democrats, which is a party of government—not a party of opposition— and should be ashamed of itself. I have to say to Mr Wallace who, unfortunately, is not with us at the moment, Mr Finnie and their friends, who are too ashamed to be here: are the Liberal Democrats not content with portfolios, titles, special advisers, the perks and privileges of office and the resources of the Scottish Office, which are now theirs to command? Why is it necessary to rip the Scottish taxpayer off by another £65,000 so that the pretend party can be a pretend Opposition? Are the Liberal Democrats not ashamed of themselves? Do they have no principles and integrity left? The Liberal Democrats in this Parliament are the boys from the folding stuff. It is not just gizza job—it is gie us the money as well. If they have any self-respect, they should decline this pathetic bribe as even a Liberal lapdog cannot run with the hare and hunt with the hounds at the same time.

I welcome the transfer to this Parliament of legislative competence for these matters and—like Mr Russell—hope that before long fresh proposals will come before this chamber to remove this stain on our reputation for fair play. Mr Russell's suggestion that this matter should be referred to Lord Neill and his committee for consideration is sensible and worthy of further exploration. When they contested the recent election in Scotland, all the parties in the chamber were happy to sign up to a voluntary code of conduct on election spending, which was supervised independently in line with the principles set out by the Neill committee. It seems sensible that we should take this matter forward on the same consensual basis.

I have no particular comment to make on the second order, but I am sure that the Parliament would be disappointed if I did not observe that the executive responsibilities that the third order transfers to our new Administration were more than competently exercised by a team of five Scottish Office ministers barely two years ago. Those responsibilities now seem to require the attention of four times that number of ministers and two law officers in our £5 million Government. I suggest to our new Minister for Finance, Mr McConnell, who has also left the chamber—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C703972", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Alex Salmond (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 146.0, "ContributionID": 703972, "EditedText": "The charge was that the Labour party ignored the recommendation of the Neill committee about consultation on these matters. Will Mr Chisholm support the recommendation of the Neill committee so that the issue of Short money in this Parliament can be determined in a non-partisan manner?", "EditedTextHTML": "The charge was that the Labour party ignored the recommendation of the Neill committee about consultation on these matters. Will Mr Chisholm support the recommendation of the Neill committee so that the issue of Short money in this

Parliament can be determined in a non-partisan manner?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1973E119P326C703976", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gorrie, Donald", "ID": 1973, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Donald Gorrie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Donald Gorrie (Central Scotland) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 155.0, "ContributionID": 703976, "EditedText": "I hope that Mr McLetchie does not regard me as a lapdog or any other form of four-footed beast. If it is of any interest to him, I voted with Mr Russell against the business motion because I thought that he was defending the interests of Parliament against the Executive, which is what I am here to do. I could also add that Mr McLetchie's habitually intemperate and vituperative rhetoric was a major factor in persuading a number of my colleagues not to accept my argument that we should go for a minority Government and try to get co-operation among all the parties. My colleagues felt that it would be impossible to co-operate with people who carry on as Mr McLetchie does. That is a mere observation. If Mr McLetchie wishes to continue in his style, it is a free country and that is up to him, but it has a serious repercussion on some of his audience. I agree with Malcolm Chisholm: Short money at Westminster has been increased substantially and it is divvied up reasonably fairly. There was an attempt to divvy it up fairly in this Parliament. I agree that it is for this Parliament—once it has organised itself—to decide how Short money and the like should be dealt with, so I would quite happily support a proper, neutral examination of the matter in due course. I will move on to the position of the Liberal Democrats. In the real world, which is not of interest to some members, if the smaller party in a coalition does not have substantial financial resources—unlike two of the parties here—or the facilities to keep on developing its policies, researching, advising its members and developing its contribution to the coalition, it will merely become a tail on the larger coalition dog. If it cannot develop in conformity with its principles, what Mr McLetchie says would come about. It is essential to the interests of democracy that each party is able to develop its own policies. It is important that in this or any future coalition the smaller party has the resources to develop its ideas. The larger party holds almost all the Government positions and has much more in the way of access to civil servants. Our ministers have access to civil servants, so we might be able to develop in that way, but it is only reasonable that we should get a share, and what is proposed is a smaller share than we would have got if we were not in the Government. We need some money to develop our own policies. That is in the long-term interests of all parties if we want a healthy, multiparty democracy. In due course, the Parliament should consider the issue, but I do not think that it is all a wicked Westminster plot.", "EditedTextHTML": "I hope that Mr McLetchie does not regard me as a lapdog or any other form of four-footed beast. If it is of any interest to him, I voted with Mr Russell against the business motion because I thought that he was defending the interests of Parliament against the Executive, which is what I am here to do.

I could also add that Mr McLetchie's habitually intemperate and vituperative rhetoric was a major factor in persuading a number of my colleagues not to accept my argument that we should go for a minority Government and try to get co-operation among all the parties. My colleagues felt that it would be impossible to co-operate with people who carry on as Mr McLetchie does. That is a mere observation. If Mr McLetchie wishes to continue in his style, it is a free country and that is up to him, but it has a serious repercussion on some of his audience.

I agree with Malcolm Chisholm: Short money at Westminster has been increased substantially and it is divvied up reasonably fairly. There was an attempt to divvy it up fairly in this Parliament. I agree that it is for this Parliament—once it has organised itself—to decide how Short money and the like should be dealt with, so I would quite happily support a proper, neutral examination of the matter in due course.

I will move on to the position of the Liberal Democrats. In the real world, which is not of interest to some members, if the smaller party in a coalition does not have substantial financial resources—unlike two of the parties here—or the facilities to keep on developing its policies, researching, advising its members and developing its contribution to the coalition, it will merely become a tail on the larger coalition dog. If it cannot develop in conformity with its principles, what Mr McLetchie says would come about.

It is essential to the interests of democracy that each party is able to develop its own policies. It is important that in this or any future coalition the smaller party has the resources to develop its ideas. The larger party holds almost all the Government positions and has much more in the way of access to civil servants. Our ministers have access to civil servants, so we might be able to develop in that way, but it is only reasonable that we should get a share, and what is proposed is a smaller share than we would have got if we were not in the Government. We need some money to develop our own policies. That is in the long-term interests of all parties if we want a healthy, multiparty democracy. In due course, the Parliament should consider the issue, but I do not think that it is all a wicked Westminster plot.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1973E119P326C703978", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gorrie, Donald", "ID": 1973, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Donald Gorrie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Donald Gorrie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 159.0, "ContributionID": 703978, "EditedText": "That may be so, but at the moment I do not accept that there should be changes. I merely propose that the Parliament should consider the issue. It may be that funding for proper party support in general is inadequate. This is a new arrangement. Westminster, as well as Scottish, money benefits three of the parties in this chamber. We need to take a bit of time to decide whether, taking both of those sources of funding, plus allowances and so on, into account, the Parliament and its members are adequately funded. I am in the lead of those who see Westminster plots all over the place, but I honestly do not see one on this issue.", "EditedTextHTML": "That may be so, but at the moment I do not accept that there should be changes. I merely propose that the Parliament should consider the issue. It may be that funding for proper party support in general is inadequate. This is a new arrangement. Westminster, as well as Scottish, money benefits three of the parties in this chamber. We need to take a bit of time to decide whether, taking both of those sources of funding, plus allowances and so on, into account, the Parliament and its members are adequately funded. I am in the lead of those who see Westminster plots all over the place, but I honestly do not see one on this issue.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C703983", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 171.0, "ContributionID": 703983, "EditedText": "I am coming to the end of my remarks. When the Conservatives start to tell us the names of the millionaires from Greece and Hong Kong who finance them and cleared their multimillion pound debt, I may perhaps start to listen to them.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am coming to the end of my remarks.

When the Conservatives start to tell us the names of the millionaires from Greece and Hong Kong who finance them and cleared their multimillion pound debt, I may perhaps start to listen to them.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C703990", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Annabel Goldie (West of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 188.0, "ContributionID": 703990, "EditedText": "If I may respond to Mr Raffan, the trouble with his being a turncoat is that it makes it difficult for us to find him convincing, because we do not know where he will turn up next. MEMBERS: \"Over there.\" He is nearer to Mr Salmond than he is to us. I want to defend my leader, Mr McLetchie, against Mr Gorrie—he is just a lamb, Mr Gorrie, just a lamb. Beside him and behind him are other lambs. The difference between the Conservative party and Mr Gorrie's party, the Liberal Democrats, is that we approach each issue with Scotland's best interests in mind, instead of soldering ourselves into some wee pact for the sake of self-interest. I am principally concerned with the part of the Scotland Act 1998 (Modifications of Schedules 4 and 5) Order 1999 that refers to Short money. I am tempted to observe that facts are chiels that winna ding. The facts are very simple and should be obvious not only to this chamber, but to the people of Scotland beyond. Short money exists to allow Opposition parties to do their job effectively. The amount that is currently available at Westminster is £10,000 per member, with a vote supplement. New Labour is halving that for the purposes of the Scottish Parliament. These are the facts. Short money is not available to Governments. The Liberal Democrats, perceived by the Scottish people first as the smiling and latterly as the gloomy Judases of Scottish politics, are part of Government; if Mr Gorrie thinks that Mr McLetchie is vituperative, he should just wait. Mr Wallace said: \"I am delighted that Nicol Stephen and Iain Smith have joined the Government team. Along with myself and Ross Finnie, this demonstrates again that the Scottish Liberal Democrats are right at the heart of this partnership government.\" The Liberal Democrats propose to accept this Short money. If they do, they will take sitting on the fence—admittedly their legendary pastime—to new heights. If they aspire to being in government and opposition at the same time, they will not only have perfected the art of having their cake and eating it, but will find that the fence cuts through their collective political crotch, and the Scottish people will not forget their dishonour in their dismemberment. In my opinion, the Liberal Democrats would do well not to touch a penny of the blood money. But if the Liberal Democrats reek of obsequious ambivalence, what about the ill-disguised arrogance of Labour? It is the party that heralded the launch of this new Parliament with the creation of a bloated, padded, opulent Administration, which is costing the taxpayer more than £5 million. What an advertisement for a country that is characteristically associated with prudence and thrift. Labour has single-handedly transmogrified the Scottish lion into a tartan fat cat. As its members feed themselves at the taxpayers' expense, the Opposition parties are to be put on a starvation diet. How convenient. That is arrogance—but it is something more sinister: the Government does not want opposition. It does not want the Scottish National party and the Conservative party here asking questions. It does not want them opposing or testing what it is doing, or examining and, where necessary, exposing. Yet this is a Government that proclaims to have set up this Parliament for democracy. It is my submission that that is not democracy. Unless the Opposition parties in this chamber are to be treated fairly and with parity, we do not have democracy; we have suppression, repression and control. That is bad for this chamber, but even worse for Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "If I may respond to Mr Raffan, the trouble with his being a turncoat is that it makes it difficult for us to find him convincing, because we do not know where he will turn up next. [MEMBERS: \"Over there.\"] He is nearer to Mr Salmond than he is to us.

I want to defend my leader, Mr McLetchie, against Mr Gorrie—he is just a lamb, Mr Gorrie, just a lamb. Beside him and behind him are other lambs. The difference between the Conservative party and Mr Gorrie's party, the Liberal Democrats, is that we approach each issue with Scotland's best interests in mind, instead of soldering ourselves into some wee pact for the sake of self-interest.

I am principally concerned with the part of the Scotland Act 1998 (Modifications of Schedules 4 and 5) Order 1999 that refers to Short money. I am tempted to observe that facts are chiels that winna ding. The facts are very simple and should be obvious not only to this chamber, but to the people of Scotland beyond. Short money exists to allow Opposition parties to do their job effectively. The amount that is currently available at Westminster is £10,000 per member, with a vote supplement. New Labour is halving that for the purposes of the Scottish Parliament.

These are the facts. Short money is not available to Governments. The Liberal Democrats, perceived by the Scottish people first as the smiling and latterly as the gloomy Judases of Scottish politics, are part of Government; if Mr Gorrie thinks that Mr McLetchie is vituperative, he should just wait. Mr Wallace said:

\"I am delighted that Nicol Stephen and Iain Smith have joined the Government team. Along with myself and Ross Finnie, this demonstrates again that the Scottish Liberal Democrats are right at the heart of this partnership government.\"

The Liberal Democrats propose to accept this Short money. If they do, they will take sitting on the fence—admittedly their legendary pastime—to new heights. If they aspire to being in government and opposition at the same time, they will not only have perfected the art of having their cake and eating it, but will find that the fence cuts through their collective political crotch, and the Scottish people will not forget their dishonour in their dismemberment.

In my opinion, the Liberal Democrats would do well not to touch a penny of the blood money. But if the Liberal Democrats reek of obsequious ambivalence, what about the ill-disguised

arrogance of Labour? It is the party that heralded the launch of this new Parliament with the creation of a bloated, padded, opulent Administration, which is costing the taxpayer more than £5 million. What an advertisement for a country that is characteristically associated with prudence and thrift.

Labour has single-handedly transmogrified the Scottish lion into a tartan fat cat. As its members feed themselves at the taxpayers' expense, the Opposition parties are to be put on a starvation diet. How convenient.

That is arrogance—but it is something more sinister: the Government does not want opposition. It does not want the Scottish National party and the Conservative party here asking questions. It does not want them opposing or testing what it is doing, or examining and, where necessary, exposing. Yet this is a Government that proclaims to have set up this Parliament for democracy. It is my submission that that is not democracy. Unless the Opposition parties in this chamber are to be treated fairly and with parity, we do not have democracy; we have suppression, repression and control. That is bad for this chamber, but even worse for Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2090E83P266C703998", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAllion, Mr John", "ID": 2090, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dundee East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John McAllion", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McAllion: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 205.0, "ContributionID": 703998, "EditedText": "If anyone consults me about it, I will say that I do not want the Short principles or Short money introduced into this Parliament—I want it to decide how we organise the Opposition and the funding of political parties. Interruption. Malcolm Chisholm made the very fair point that Westminster Short money is geared to a first-pastthe- post electoral system. I do not like to remind members of the SNP that if a first-past-the-post system had applied to the elections to this Parliament, they would have had seven seats and they would not get the kind of money that they claim is their right in this Parliament, but under the Westminster system. As for the Tories, they would get nothing because not one of them would be here if we operated a Westminster system. There is a whole lot of nonsense and hypocrisy in the debate. Mr Russell was very confused about the Neill committee, which again is a Westminster committee. First he said that it could make recommendations and that this Parliament would decide on them. Then he said that the Neill committee would not make recommendations but would arbitrate. Why should a committee appointed at Westminster tell this Parliament what it should be doing about funding? I do not accept that, and I am amazed and disgusted that the SNP is prepared to—", "EditedTextHTML": "If anyone consults me about it, I will say that I do not want the Short principles or Short money introduced into this Parliament—I want it to decide how we organise the Opposition and the funding of political parties. [Interruption.] Malcolm Chisholm made the very fair point that Westminster Short money is geared to a first-pastthe- post electoral system. I do not like to remind members of the SNP that if a first-past-the-post system had applied to the elections to this Parliament, they would have had seven seats and they would not get the kind of money that they claim is their right in this Parliament, but under the Westminster system. As for the Tories, they would get nothing because not one of them would be here if we operated a Westminster system. There is a whole lot of nonsense and hypocrisy in the debate.

Mr Russell was very confused about the Neill committee, which again is a Westminster committee. First he said that it could make recommendations and that this Parliament would decide on them. Then he said that the Neill committee would not make recommendations but would arbitrate. Why should a committee appointed at Westminster tell this Parliament what it should be doing about funding? I do not accept that, and I am amazed and disgusted that the SNP is prepared to—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2090E83P266C703991", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAllion, Mr John", "ID": 2090, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dundee East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John McAllion", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr John McAllion (Dundee East) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 191.0, "ContributionID": 703991, "EditedText": "Unlike Miss Goldie, unfortunately I do not have a speech that I prepared earlier. I will just have to react to some of the points that have been made during the debate. It is important in this Parliament of all places that we use language carefully. The words that we use should mean something, and should not be devalued by inappropriate, repetitive, casual and offhand use. A phrase springs to mind: new politics. It was first used in the context of the elections to this Parliament. It was an inspirational phrase. Everyone was excited about and looking forward to a kind of new politics breaking out in Scotland. Unfortunately, I do not feel that way now, after just a few weeks here. The phrase has been used time and again—ad nauseam—until it begins to turn the stomach and one wants to throw up, because it is used so inappropriately. We heard an example this afternoon from Michael Russell, who opposed the business motion. As we all know, the business motion actually dealt with a subject that the Opposition wanted to debate. Any Opposition member was allowed to speak and to lodge an amendment, and all Opposition members were allowed to vote. However, Michael Russell told us that it was a dark cloud hanging over the shining light of Scotland's democracy. If that is the darkest cloud that ever hangs over democracy in Scotland, we really are living in a big rock candy Scotland, \"At the lemonade springs Where the bluebird sings\"and where democracy will live for evermore.", "EditedTextHTML": "Unlike Miss Goldie, unfortunately I do not have a speech that I prepared earlier. I will just have to react to some of the points that have been made during the debate.

It is important in this Parliament of all places that we use language carefully. The words that we use should mean something, and should not be devalued by inappropriate, repetitive, casual and offhand use. A phrase springs to mind: new politics. It was first used in the context of the elections to this Parliament. It was an inspirational phrase. Everyone was excited about and looking forward to a kind of new politics breaking out in Scotland. Unfortunately, I do not feel that way now, after just a few weeks here. The phrase has been used time and again—ad nauseam—until it begins to turn the stomach and one wants to throw up, because it is used so inappropriately.

We heard an example this afternoon from Michael Russell, who opposed the business motion. As we all know, the business motion actually dealt with a subject that the Opposition wanted to debate. Any Opposition member was allowed to speak and to lodge an amendment, and all Opposition members were allowed to vote. However, Michael Russell told us that it was a dark cloud hanging over the shining light of Scotland's democracy. If that is the darkest cloud that ever hangs over democracy in Scotland, we really are living in a big rock candy Scotland,

\"At the lemonade springs Where the bluebird sings\"

and where democracy will live for evermore.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2090E83P266C703996", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAllion, Mr John", "ID": 2090, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dundee East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John McAllion", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McAllion: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 201.0, "ContributionID": 703996, "EditedText": "I will finish this part of my speech first. Mr Russell will get his chance. So will the lad at the back if he waits. SNP members are the people who said that that they did not accept the sovereignty of Westminster. That is a perfectly legitimate position to take, but they recognise the sovereignty of the Scottish people. It sticks in the throat a bit for them then to say that they do not want Westminster sovereignty, but they will take the Westminster shilling. That is their position. I will give way to Mr Russell and he can shake his pockets—", "EditedTextHTML": "I will finish this part of my speech first. Mr Russell will get his chance. So will the lad at the back if he waits.

SNP members are the people who said that that they did not accept the sovereignty of Westminster. That is a perfectly legitimate position to take, but they recognise the sovereignty of the Scottish people. It sticks in the throat a bit for them then to say that they do not want Westminster sovereignty, but they will take the Westminster shilling. That is their position. I will give way to Mr Russell and he can shake his pockets—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C703997", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 203.0, "ContributionID": 703997, "EditedText": "I am disappointed by Mr McAllion's comments. He and I were founder members of Scotland United—we believed in the new politics. Even if I were to accept his point about Short money and the point that Mr Chisholm and others made, surely what matters is that there should be consultation about setting the level of any resources available to Opposition parties. That is the main conclusion on the matter by the Neill committee. How does Mr McAllion defend the fact that the order was published at Westminster with no consultation whatever? His and similar arguments might have won out, but publishing it without discussion is certainly subverting the future of this Parliament and the new politics in which he and I believe.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am disappointed by Mr McAllion's comments. He and I were founder members of Scotland United—we believed in the new politics. Even if I were to accept his point about Short money and the point that Mr Chisholm and others made, surely what matters is that there should be consultation about setting the level of any resources available to Opposition parties. That is the main conclusion on the matter by the Neill committee. How does Mr McAllion defend the fact that the order was published at Westminster with no consultation whatever? His and similar arguments might have won out, but publishing it without discussion is certainly subverting the

future of this Parliament and the new politics in which he and I believe.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2090E83P266C704000", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAllion, Mr John", "ID": 2090, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dundee East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John McAllion", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McAllion: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 209.0, "ContributionID": 704000, "EditedText": "That honourable member—that chap over there has to speak in every debate and intervene on every other speaker. I am not giving way because it is him.", "EditedTextHTML": "That honourable member—that chap over there has to speak in every debate and intervene on every other speaker. I am not giving way because it is him.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2090E83P266C704002", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAllion, Mr John", "ID": 2090, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dundee East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John McAllion", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McAllion: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 213.0, "ContributionID": 704002, "EditedText": "A great deal of righteous indignation has been expressed this afternoon about the Liberal Democrats. MEMBERS: \"Give way.\" I will give way to the oldest member in a minute. We are at the beginning of an experiment in coalition government; the Liberal Democrats may not be in government for the next four years. We have not heard the recommendations of the committee of inquiry on tuition fees, and we do not know whether the Liberal Democrats will go along with it. They might be four years in opposition, and they will be entitled to some kind of funding in opposition, if that is what comes to pass.", "EditedTextHTML": "A great deal of righteous indignation has been expressed this afternoon about the Liberal Democrats. [MEMBERS: \"Give way.\"] I will give way to the oldest member in a minute.

We are at the beginning of an experiment in coalition government; the Liberal Democrats may not be in government for the next four years. We have not heard the recommendations of the committee of inquiry on tuition fees, and we do not know whether the Liberal Democrats will go along with it. They might be four years in opposition, and they will be entitled to some kind of funding in opposition, if that is what comes to pass.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2090E83P266C704004", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAllion, Mr John", "ID": 2090, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dundee East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John McAllion", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McAllion: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 217.0, "ContributionID": 704004, "EditedText": "If that really is the SNP's position, why is it not recommending that we listen to the European principle or the committees that recommended it? Why is it saying that the Neill committee and Short money, as applied in Westminster, should be applied in Scotland? That may well be a general principle—but it was the SNP that raised the Neill committee and the Short system. It wants to introduce Westminster politics, even down to the detail of Roseanna Cunningham jumping on her feet every two seconds saying, \"Will the honourable member give way?\" and shouting \"Give way\" from a sedentary position: dreadful stuff that I did not think I would see coming from the SNP. To counter the idea that there is some kind of undemocratic manoeuvre by the Government, I remind members of the committee structure that is about to be set up in this Parliament. The Labour party will be in a minority on every committee, and committees will have a right to initiate legislation and to act as select committees—that is a greater democratic tool than any £10,000, £50,000 or £100,000 that is handed out by any system. Never mind Short money, any Opposition at Westminster would give its right arm and right leg for the committee structure that a Labour Government will deliver to this Parliament. Members of the Opposition should keep their mouths shut and get on with the business that they were elected to carry out, instead of this trivia that we have to deal with all the time.", "EditedTextHTML": "If that really is the SNP's position, why is it not recommending that we listen to the European principle or the committees that recommended it? Why is it saying that the Neill committee and Short money, as applied in Westminster, should be applied in Scotland? That may well be a general principle—but it was the SNP that raised the Neill committee and the Short system. It wants to introduce Westminster politics, even down to the detail of Roseanna Cunningham jumping on her feet every two seconds saying, \"Will the honourable member give way?\" and shouting \"Give way\" from a sedentary position: dreadful stuff that I did not think I would see coming from the SNP.

To counter the idea that there is some kind of undemocratic manoeuvre by the Government, I remind members of the committee structure that is about to be set up in this Parliament. The Labour party will be in a minority on every committee, and committees will have a right to initiate legislation and to act as select committees—that is a greater democratic tool than any £10,000, £50,000 or £100,000 that is handed out by any system. Never mind Short money, any Opposition at Westminster would give its right arm and right leg for the committee structure that a Labour Government will deliver to this Parliament. Members of the Opposition should keep their mouths shut and get on with the business that they were elected to carry out, instead of this trivia that we have to deal with all the time.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C704007", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan (Glasgow) (SSP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 225.0, "ContributionID": 704007, "EditedText": "I am a keen teetotaller, but I recently had a conversation in a pub with a fire-fighter. He wondered whether some of the new members of the Parliament were shaving yet. I said that I did not know, but wondered why he asked. He replied that he had been a fire-fighter for 12 years and was earning £20,000 a year, while some of the youngsters in Parliament were earning £40,000 a year. I give that illustration because I am astounded by some of the remarks that I have heard this afternoon about public money. It is important that we remember that we are all reliant on public money. Mr Allan Wilson referred to the fact that he used to negotiate what were mostly pay rises—I will take his word for that—and that that made him popular. Perhaps I will make myself unpopular if I say that if this Parliament wants to create a genuinely new politics—in Mr McAllion's words— we should be moving towards a wage reduction for members. According to the Scottish Low Pay Unit, the average wage of a skilled worker in Scotland is currently £20,000 per annum. Do we think that we are above and beyond skilled workers in Scotland? That is the wage of a train driver, a firefighter or a senior nurse. I do not think that any one of us is better than anyone in those professions. Perhaps we could astound the Scottish electorate by moving for a wage reduction for members of Parliament and accepting the average wage of a skilled worker instead—then we could get on with discussing the substantive matter here, which is the funding of effective opposition. Obviously, Opposition parties want the advice and research that will be necessary to counter what is the biggest growth industry in Scotland— that of the spin doctors. Some 12 special advisers were recently appointed, at a cost to the public of £600,000. It is a pity that more money was not spent on real doctors instead of on spin doctors for new Labour in Scotland. I will take no lectures on the theme that those who are calling for more appropriate support for effective opposition are prepared to call for the rejection of Westminster-style politics and Westminster-idea politics but are prepared to accept the Westminster shilling. We are all guilty of taking the Westminster shilling. Everyone is guilty of repeating some of the mistakes that have led to the general populace seeing politics as full of people who are in it for themselves. I hope that some members will reflect that it would be better if we were to propose an early motion to relate our wages more closely to those of skilled workers in Scotland. My final point concerns what Mr MacAskill said. It is important that Mr McLeish publishes details as soon as possible about how decisions will be worked out on matters that are partly reserved and partly shared and that could lead to conflict. I hope that, early in this session, the minister responsible for roads and highways will reflect the overwhelming opinion of the people in Scotland and bring forward an order to remove nuclear weapons convoys and nuclear material transports from our roads and highways so that we can create a genuinely nuclear-free Scotland. That would obviously result in conflict, as the Secretary of State for Defence may have something to say about it. It is important that such decisions are as transparent as possible and that there is detail about how conflicts will be worked out.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am a keen teetotaller, but I recently had a conversation in a pub with a fire-fighter. He wondered whether some of the new members of the Parliament were shaving yet. I said that I did not know, but wondered why he asked. He replied that he had been a fire-fighter for 12 years and was earning £20,000 a year, while some of the youngsters in Parliament were earning £40,000 a year.

I give that illustration because I am astounded by some of the remarks that I have heard this afternoon about public money. It is important that we remember that we are all reliant on public money. Mr Allan Wilson referred to the fact that he used to negotiate what were mostly pay rises—I will take his word for that—and that that made him popular. Perhaps I will make myself unpopular if I say that if this Parliament wants to create a genuinely new politics—in Mr McAllion's words— we should be moving towards a wage reduction for members.

According to the Scottish Low Pay Unit, the average wage of a skilled worker in Scotland is currently £20,000 per annum. Do we think that we are above and beyond skilled workers in Scotland? That is the wage of a train driver, a firefighter or a senior nurse. I do not think that any one of us is better than anyone in those professions. Perhaps we could astound the Scottish electorate by moving for a wage reduction for members of Parliament and accepting the average wage of a skilled worker instead—then we could get on with discussing the substantive matter here, which is the funding of effective opposition.

Obviously, Opposition parties want the advice and research that will be necessary to counter what is the biggest growth industry in Scotland— that of the spin doctors. Some 12 special advisers were recently appointed, at a cost to the public of £600,000. It is a pity that more money was not spent on real doctors instead of on spin doctors for new Labour in Scotland.

I will take no lectures on the theme that those who are calling for more appropriate support for effective opposition are prepared to call for the rejection of Westminster-style politics and Westminster-idea politics but are prepared to accept the Westminster shilling. We are all guilty of taking the Westminster shilling. Everyone is guilty of repeating some of the mistakes that have led to the general populace seeing politics as full of people who are in it for themselves. I hope that some members will reflect that it would be better if we were to propose an early motion to relate our wages more closely to those of skilled workers in Scotland.

My final point concerns what Mr MacAskill said. It is important that Mr McLeish publishes details as soon as possible about how decisions will be worked out on matters that are partly reserved and partly shared and that could lead to conflict. I hope that, early in this session, the minister responsible for roads and highways will reflect the overwhelming opinion of the people in Scotland and bring forward an order to remove nuclear weapons convoys and nuclear material transports from our roads and highways so that we can create a genuinely nuclear-free Scotland. That would obviously result in conflict, as the Secretary of State for Defence may have something to say about it. It is important that such decisions are as transparent as possible and that there is detail about how conflicts will be worked out.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C704010", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 233.0, "ContributionID": 704010, "EditedText": "I think that the minister has noted that point. I now call Mike Rumbles, but I ask him to keep his remarks brief.", "EditedTextHTML": "I think that the minister has noted that point. I now call Mike Rumbles, but I ask him to keep his remarks brief.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704034", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 285.0, "ContributionID": 704034, "EditedText": "That the draft Scotland Act 1998 (Functions Exercisable in or as Regards Scotland) Order 1999, which was laid before the Parliament on 26 May, be approved.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the draft Scotland Act 1998 (Functions Exercisable in or as Regards Scotland) Order 1999, which was laid before the Parliament on 26 May, be approved.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1863E284P532C704022", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Cunningham, Roseanna", "ID": 1863, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Perth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Roseanna Cunningham", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Roseanna Cunningham rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 262.0, "ContributionID": 704022, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C704025", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 268.0, "ContributionID": 704025, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C704026", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 270.0, "ContributionID": 704026, "EditedText": "I am not giving way. Alex Salmond may grin in that inane manner, but the facts are simple. We have heard questions raised about the Liberal Democrats. The members of the SNP have read the Scotland Act 1998; at least I presume that some of them have. Section 97(3) provides for the possibility of giving that money to parties in a coalition government. I am also struck by representations that were made to the Neill committee by a very senior member of the Scottish National party, who said: \"One of the options to be considered if all parties are minority parties is whether the Scottish equivalent of Short money might in fact be available to all parties, regardless of whether they are in government or in opposition.\" I am not one to gloat on such comments, but I am aware that people change their minds, and that is acceptable. However, what concerns me is that such people have selective amnesia. It is high time that, if we are to have so-called principled debate in Scottish politics, we address some of the statements that we have made in the past, and that we acknowledge that, at the time, these statements may have been a sensible contribution to the debate. Certainly, for the Scottish National party, that comment was made in the mists of time. Coming closer to home, we want an effective opposition, and the suggestions that the new democracy is on its last legs are complete and utter rubbish. This Parliament has been in existence for two to three weeks, and we do not need to be turning every technical molehill into a political mountain. That is the central problem of this kind of debate. If we have perspective—", "EditedTextHTML": "I am not giving way. Alex Salmond may grin in that inane manner, but the

facts are simple. We have heard questions raised about the Liberal Democrats. The members of the SNP have read the Scotland Act 1998; at least I presume that some of them have. Section 97(3) provides for the possibility of giving that money to parties in a coalition government. I am also struck by representations that were made to the Neill committee by a very senior member of the Scottish National party, who said:

\"One of the options to be considered if all parties are minority parties is whether the Scottish equivalent of Short money might in fact be available to all parties, regardless of whether they are in government or in opposition.\"

I am not one to gloat on such comments, but I am aware that people change their minds, and that is acceptable. However, what concerns me is that such people have selective amnesia. It is high time that, if we are to have so-called principled debate in Scottish politics, we address some of the statements that we have made in the past, and that we acknowledge that, at the time, these statements may have been a sensible contribution to the debate. Certainly, for the Scottish National party, that comment was made in the mists of time.

Coming closer to home, we want an effective opposition, and the suggestions that the new democracy is on its last legs are complete and utter rubbish. This Parliament has been in existence for two to three weeks, and we do not need to be turning every technical molehill into a political mountain. That is the central problem of this kind of debate. If we have perspective—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C704027", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 272.0, "ContributionID": 704027, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2028E87P287C704028", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLeish, Henry", "ID": 2028, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning", "SpeakerName": "Henry McLeish", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Henry McLeish: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 274.0, "ContributionID": 704028, "EditedText": "I will not give way to Michael Russell.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will not give way to Michael Russell.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704035", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 286.0, "ContributionID": 704035, "EditedText": "That the draft Scotland Act 1998 (Transfer of Functions to the Scottish Ministers etc.) Order 1999, which was laid before the Parliament on 26 May, be approved.—Henry McLeish.", "EditedTextHTML": "That the draft Scotland Act 1998 (Transfer of Functions to the Scottish Ministers etc.) Order 1999, which was laid before the Parliament on 26 May, be approved.—[Henry McLeish.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C704039", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26601, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 287.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 287.0, "ID": 26601, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 294.0, "ContributionID": 704039, "EditedText": "The second motion in the name of Henry McLeish is: That the draft Scotland Act 1998 (Functions Exercisable in or as Regards Scotland) Order 1999, which was laid before the Parliament on 26 May, be approved. The question is, that the motion be agreed to. Are we all agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "The second motion in the name of Henry McLeish is:

That the draft Scotland Act 1998 (Functions Exercisable in or as Regards Scotland) Order 1999, which was laid before the Parliament on 26 May, be approved.

The question is, that the motion be agreed to. Are we all agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704040", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26601, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 287.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 287.0, "ID": 26601, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 296.0, "ContributionID": 704040, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "C704043", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Decision Time", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26601, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 287.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 287.0, "ID": 26601, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 300.0, "ContributionID": 704043, "EditedText": "Meeting closed at 17:01.", "EditedTextHTML": "Meeting closed at 17:01.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.7172507+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C704031", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 02 Jun 1999", "ID": 4164 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "End": "1999-06-02T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Devolution", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26600, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 84.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 84.0, "ID": 26600, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 280.0, "ContributionID": 704031, "EditedText": "On a point of order, Mr Deputy Presiding Officer. Mr McLeish should be invited to clarify to the chamber whether the Short money that is proposed in the Westminster order will commence before 1 July or on 1 July. He should be asked to confirm that point.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order, Mr Deputy Presiding Officer. Mr McLeish should be invited to clarify to the chamber whether the Short money that is proposed in the Westminster order will commence before 1 July or on 1 July. He should be asked to confirm that point.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:24:23.6870353+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1756E184P464C703638", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Grahame, Christine", "ID": 1756, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Christine Grahame", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 154.0, "ContributionID": 703638, "EditedText": "I am very interested in what Mr Robson has to say. He is now a Borders MSP, as is Mr Jenkins. Does Mr Robson think that the Liberal Democrats have a mandate to go into a coalition with the Labour party when in Roxburghshire the Labour party came fourth, and in Tweeddale it came third? I do not think that the Liberal Democrats have the authority of the people in the Borders for such a coalition.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am very interested in what Mr Robson has to say. He is now a Borders MSP, as is Mr Jenkins. Does Mr Robson think that the Liberal Democrats have a mandate to go into a coalition with the Labour party when in Roxburghshire the Labour party came fourth, and in Tweeddale it came third? I do not think that the Liberal Democrats have the authority of the people in the Borders for such a coalition.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:00:47.4219837+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2180E179P471C703628", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lochhead, Richard", "ID": 2180, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Lochhead", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Richard Lochhead: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 131.0, "ContributionID": 703628, "EditedText": "That was a speech, not an intervention. If Mr Robson listens to the rest of my speech, he will find out exactly why the fishing industry is concerned about the agreement between the Liberal Democrats and the Labour party. That industry is up in arms. It was not consulted by any of the authorities. The Parliament in Scotland was not consulted. Indeed, no courtesy was shown to the industry—it found out about this theft only from someone who was at an oil industry liaison meeting, when it crept up in conversation. Another backroom deal was struck around the corner, and we find yet again that the fishing industry is the victim of a backroom deal. Thanks to this coalition, the importance of the fishing industry has been reduced to 16 words out of a 24-page manifesto. That is why the fishing industry is concerned about the coalition deal and why it wants more attention to be shown. Fishing industry leaders are visiting Parliament today, and I ask all members of all parties to support the fishermen's cause without being distracted by or tied to any backroom deal. That is why I oppose Ross Finnie's appointment.", "EditedTextHTML": "That was a speech, not an intervention. If Mr Robson listens to the rest of my speech, he will find out exactly why the fishing industry is concerned about the agreement between the Liberal Democrats and the Labour party. That industry is up in arms. It was not consulted by any of the authorities. The Parliament in Scotland was not consulted. Indeed, no courtesy was shown to the industry—it found out about this theft only from someone who was at an oil industry liaison meeting, when it crept up in conversation.

Another backroom deal was struck around the corner, and we find yet again that the fishing industry is the victim of a backroom deal. Thanks to this coalition, the importance of the fishing industry has been reduced to 16 words out of a 24-page manifesto. That is why the fishing industry is concerned about the coalition deal and why it wants more attention to be shown.

Fishing industry leaders are visiting Parliament today, and I ask all members of all parties to support the fishermen's cause without being distracted by or tied to any backroom deal. That is why I oppose Ross Finnie's appointment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:31.1569345+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2180E179P471C703640", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lochhead, Richard", "ID": 2180, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Lochhead", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Richard Lochhead: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 158.0, "ContributionID": 703640, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:31.1569345+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703567", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Wednesday 19 May 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26592, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26592, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 2.0, "ContributionID": 703567, "EditedText": "THE PRESIDING OFFICER opened the meeting at 10:00", "EditedTextHTML": "[THE PRESIDING OFFICER opened the meeting at 10:00]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703568", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Wednesday 19 May 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26592, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26592, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 3.0, "ContributionID": 703568, "EditedText": "Before we start on the business of the day, I have one announcement to make. I want to correct the announcement of the vote on prayers that was made yesterday. The figures were transposed, and should have been announced as follows: For 69, Against 37, Abstentions 15. The motion was carried. The incorrect announcement makes no difference to the vote, but I am sorry that it was made. We are also having teething troubles with the business bulletin, and I ask for your indulgence on that. It has now been suggested and agreed in informal discussion with the Parliamentary Bureau that we will not take the motion on the summer recess today because it has not yet been agreed. Mr McCabe will withdraw the motion that is on the business bulletin, and Mr Russell will withdraw his amendment. Instead, there will be a short business motion dealing with the formal meetings over the bank holiday. It will be lodged by Mr McCabe now and be taken at the end of this afternoon's debate. I have been considering the fact that a very large number of members want to speak in today's main debate. For that reason, I am proposing that the debate should be extended until 12 pm, that we should then adjourn for lunch, and that we should debate the appointment of junior ministers in the afternoon for an hour from 2.30 pm. That will enable more members to participate. Normally such motions would be ordered in advance, but I hope that members will find this a more convenient arrangement that will allow a more extended debate. I also propose that there be one debate, with separate votes at the end on the amendments that I have selected. At the start of the debate, after the First Minister has moved his motion, I shall ask that the two amendments that I have selected be moved formally. We will then have a general debate, taking the votes on the amendments at the end. Instead of splitting up the proceedings into short debates on each amendment, there will be one general debate. I hope that that, too, will be to the convenience of Parliament. Is it agreed? It is agreed.", "EditedTextHTML": "Before we start on the business of the day, I have one announcement to make. I want to correct the announcement of the vote on prayers that was made yesterday. The figures were transposed, and should have been announced as follows: For 69, Against 37, Abstentions 15. The motion was carried. The incorrect announcement makes no difference to the vote, but I am sorry that it was made.

We are also having teething troubles with the business bulletin, and I ask for your indulgence on that. It has now been suggested and agreed in informal discussion with the Parliamentary Bureau that we will not take the motion on the summer recess today because it has not yet been agreed. Mr McCabe will withdraw the motion that is on the business bulletin, and Mr Russell will withdraw his amendment. Instead, there will be a short business motion dealing with the formal meetings over the bank holiday. It will be lodged by Mr McCabe now and be taken at the end of this afternoon's debate.

I have been considering the fact that a very large number of members want to speak in today's main debate. For that reason, I am proposing that the debate should be extended until 12 pm, that we should then adjourn for lunch, and that we should debate the appointment of junior ministers in the afternoon for an hour from 2.30 pm. That will enable more members to participate. Normally such motions would be ordered in advance, but I hope that members will find this a more convenient arrangement that will allow a more extended debate.

I also propose that there be one debate, with separate votes at the end on the amendments that I have selected. At the start of the debate, after the First Minister has moved his motion, I shall ask that the two amendments that I have selected be moved formally. We will then have a general debate, taking the votes on the amendments at the end. Instead of splitting up the proceedings into short debates on each amendment, there will be one general debate. I hope that that, too, will be to the convenience of Parliament.

Is it agreed? It is agreed.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C703569", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Wednesday 19 May 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26592, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26592, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell (South of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 5.0, "ContributionID": 703569, "EditedText": "On a point of order. Amendments S1M-4.1 and S1M-5.1 conflate the names of two individuals—in the case amendment 4.1, those of James Wallace and Ross Finnie, and in the case of amendment 5.1, those of Nicol Stephen and Iain Smith. It would be far more appropriate to take separate votes on the appointment of those individuals, particularly in the case of amendment 5.1, as the business bulletin shows that a number of motions were lodged relating to Nicol Stephen, but only one relating to Iain Smith. Conflating them in this way creates difficulties for members who wish to vote for one or other candidate. I ask you to separate out those votes.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. Amendments S1M-4.1 and S1M-5.1 conflate the names of two individuals—in the case amendment 4.1, those of James Wallace and Ross Finnie, and in the case of amendment 5.1, those of Nicol Stephen and Iain Smith. It would be far more appropriate to take separate votes on the appointment of those individuals, particularly in the case of amendment 5.1, as the business bulletin shows that a number of motions were lodged relating to Nicol Stephen, but only one relating to Iain Smith. Conflating them in this way creates difficulties for members who wish to vote for one or other candidate. I ask you to separate out those votes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C703571", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister (Donald Dewar): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 11.0, "ContributionID": 703571, "EditedText": "I hope that we do, in fact, have rational debate this morning and on all occasions. This is a motion of some interest. It is a motion to approve or give support to a ministerial list which, if that support is forthcoming, will be submitted to Her Majesty the Queen. That is a significant innovation to our constitutional practice and I welcome it. It is an opportunity to commend a team that will work hard for Scotland and deliver what Scots want. On the whole—I am perhaps trying my luck in saying this—the ministerial list has been reasonably well received, although there has been the odd mixed notice. That is inevitable, and I would describe it as Opposition parties on automatic pilot, or, old habits die hard. Mike Russell was quoted as describing me and my colleagues as \"party hacks and apparatchiks\". That is certainly a subject in which he is expert. He has practised the art with great distinction for a number of years, but I suggest to him that he is wrong on this occasion. The ministerial list has also been condemned as a central belt clique, I think by David McLetchie or by some of his apparatchiks and party hacks. I suggest that if that is his best argument, he is getting very short of ammunition very early in the campaign. He may be interested that there is an east-west balance—which I believe is good—in the Administration as a whole. He will note that around 25 per cent of the ministerial team are women, and that a third of the team come from outwith the central belt. I am glad about the fact that there is a minister from every one of the eight list regions on which the electoral system was based. There is a genuine spread.", "EditedTextHTML": "I hope that we do, in fact, have rational debate this morning and on all occasions. This is a motion of some interest. It is a motion to approve or give support to a ministerial list which, if that support is forthcoming, will be submitted to Her Majesty the Queen. That is a significant innovation to our constitutional practice and I welcome it. It is an opportunity to commend a team that will work hard for Scotland and deliver what Scots want.

On the whole—I am perhaps trying my luck in saying this—the ministerial list has been reasonably well received, although there has been the odd mixed notice. That is inevitable, and I would describe it as Opposition parties on automatic pilot, or, old habits die hard.

Mike Russell was quoted as describing me and my colleagues as \"party hacks and apparatchiks\". That is certainly a subject in which he is expert. He has practised the art with great distinction for a number of years, but I suggest to him that he is wrong on this occasion.

The ministerial list has also been condemned as a central belt clique, I think by David McLetchie or by some of his apparatchiks and party hacks. I suggest that if that is his best argument, he is getting very short of ammunition very early in the campaign. He may be interested that there is an east-west balance—which I believe is good—in the Administration as a whole. He will note that around 25 per cent of the ministerial team are women, and that a third of the team come from outwith the central belt. I am glad about the fact that there is a minister from every one of the eight list regions on which the electoral system was based. There is a genuine spread.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C703572", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 13.0, "ContributionID": 703572, "EditedText": "Is it not the case that the First Minister could hardly miss with respect to selecting members from every region, given that one in six MSPs will become a Government minister?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is it not the case that the First Minister could hardly miss with respect to selecting members from every region, given that one in six MSPs will become a Government minister?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C703576", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 21.0, "ContributionID": 703576, "EditedText": "I think that the electorate takes the view that good decision making should be the mark of a mature Parliament. I am interested to hear that it was a single-issue election. Most of the nationalists I talked to made claims about certain other issues being the determining factor, and said that those issues were what took people into the SNP and that lobby, if I can put it that way, and made them put crosses against SNP candidates. Information is constantly shifting on tuition fees. I had some figures just the other day that may be of interest—I use them only as a symbol of the need for full information. The assessments by the Students Awards Agency for Scotland this year show that 54 per cent of students will pay no tuition fees, 23 per cent will be on the taper and 23 per cent will pay full fees. That is a very significant shift on the figures that I was using only a few months ago. I very, very clearly take the position that we want to get this right. This Parliament is supposed to be about talking—certainly—but also about listening and about learning. There has been a great deal of talk about proper scrutiny before we reach decisions and, if we take that seriously, it seems to me fair that we should start now as we intend to continue. Mr Alex Salmond (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)rose—", "EditedTextHTML": "I think that the electorate takes the view that good decision making should be the mark of a mature Parliament. I am interested to hear that it was a single-issue election. Most of the nationalists I talked to made claims about certain other issues being the determining factor, and said that those issues were what took people into the SNP and that lobby, if I can put it that way, and made them put crosses against SNP candidates.

Information is constantly shifting on tuition fees. I had some figures just the other day that may be of interest—I use them only as a symbol of the need for full information. The assessments by the Students Awards Agency for Scotland this year show that 54 per cent of students will pay no tuition fees, 23 per cent will be on the taper and 23 per cent will pay full fees. That is a very significant shift on the figures that I was using only a few months ago. I very, very clearly take the position that we want to get this right. This Parliament is supposed to be about talking—certainly—but also about listening and about learning. There has been a great deal of talk about proper scrutiny before we reach decisions and, if we take that seriously, it seems to me fair that we should start now as we intend to continue.

Mr Alex Salmond (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)

rose—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C703583", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 35.0, "ContributionID": 703583, "EditedText": "I have just said that we will have to wait and see the results. We will then try to reach—Mr Salmond laughs, but it would be the height of ridiculousness even in his strange political world to appoint a committee of inquiry and then say that we will pay no attention to what it says. That would be a total illogicality.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have just said that we will have to wait and see the results. We will then try to reach—Mr Salmond laughs, but it would be the height of ridiculousness even in his strange political world to appoint a committee of inquiry and then say that we will pay no attention to what it says. That would be a total illogicality.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C703587", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 43.0, "ContributionID": 703587, "EditedText": "I have just answered. We expect to reach a collective decision and we will move forward from that point. The other point is that there is an attack on coalitions as such. I find that very odd, because the Scottish National party has a record of coalitions, as every member will know. One such coalition existed between 1994 and 1996 in an important unit of government, the Grampian Region. The SNP was in coalition—I almost hesitate to mention—with the Liberal Democrats, heaven forfend. I presume that that coalition was established because the SNP wanted an administration that could deliver a policy that would give a sense of direction and which would work in a constructive and proper way. At the time, those were very good reasons for entering into that coalition, and those same arguments apply now. I hope that people will accept and understand that. I am always surprised by the attitudes of the SNP. Sometimes I am astonished by them, Sir David, but let us leave that for another occasion. I remind SNP members that they have advocated proportional representation for as many years as I can remember, yet they are totally unwilling to live with the consequences of the policy that they advocated. That was pointed out to them, repeatedly and tirelessly, by the press and others during the election campaign. It is absolutely right that we should try to give a sense of purpose to this Parliament and to working in partnership.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have just answered. We expect to reach a collective decision and we will move forward from that point.

The other point is that there is an attack on coalitions as such. I find that very odd, because the Scottish National party has a record of

coalitions, as every member will know. One such coalition existed between 1994 and 1996 in an important unit of government, the Grampian Region. The SNP was in coalition—I almost hesitate to mention—with the Liberal Democrats, heaven forfend. I presume that that coalition was established because the SNP wanted an administration that could deliver a policy that would give a sense of direction and which would work in a constructive and proper way. At the time, those were very good reasons for entering into that coalition, and those same arguments apply now. I hope that people will accept and understand that.

I am always surprised by the attitudes of the SNP. Sometimes I am astonished by them, Sir David, but let us leave that for another occasion. I remind SNP members that they have advocated proportional representation for as many years as I can remember, yet they are totally unwilling to live with the consequences of the policy that they advocated. That was pointed out to them, repeatedly and tirelessly, by the press and others during the election campaign. It is absolutely right that we should try to give a sense of purpose to this Parliament and to working in partnership.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703590", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 49.0, "ContributionID": 703590, "EditedText": "If a member wants to make an intervention, he must rise in his place and call on the minister to give way. He must not then continue to speak unless the minister has given way.", "EditedTextHTML": "If a member wants to make an intervention, he must rise in his place and call on the minister to give way. He must not then continue to speak unless the minister has given way.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C703591", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 51.0, "ContributionID": 703591, "EditedText": "I apologise to Mr Gibson, but I am conscious of the time. I am not going to give way to him, because I must sit down in two or three minutes if I am to hold to my side of the bargain with those who are trying to take part in this debate. I finish by stating that this is a partnership coalition, and that we want to make that partnership work. We are determined to make it work, and to give it every chance, because we genuinely believe that it is right for the country and not simply for sectional interests. I agree that those who are not in the coalition may be disappointed by the fact that they are not included. Laughter. The derisive laugher of SNP members suggests that we have been very wise in the arrangements that we have made. It points also to the fact that, if we cannot command a reasonable working arrangement in this chamber, the Parliament will get into great difficulties in deciding anything and will end up in some degree of confusion and chaos. The interesting—and, suspect, instinctive—response to my remark underlines that point. Our aim is a partnership that is determined to raise educational standards, to give patient- centred health care, to create employment opportunities in Scotland, and to look to the social justice agenda. We aim to redress the balance, by placing the emphasis on helping those in almost all of our communities whose prospects are damaged by cruel circumstances over which they have no control. I would like to think that members from all parts of the chamber would be prepared to help with that agenda. I also believe that the Administration must be committed to it, and that that Administration is the one that I commend to the chamber now. It is a ministerial team that is ready for action, that is committed to delivery, and which has considerable talent and energy. I very much hope that it will get what it needs: the support of those who sit in our Parliament. I am honoured and delighted to move the motion. I move, That this Parliament agrees that James Wallace, Sam Galbraith, Henry McLeish, Jack McConnell, Susan Deacon, Tom McCabe, Ross Finnie, Wendy Alexander, Sarah Boyack be appointed as Ministers.", "EditedTextHTML": "I apologise to Mr Gibson, but I am conscious of the time. I am not going to give way to him, because I must sit down in two or three minutes if I am to hold to my side of the bargain with those who are trying to take part in this debate.

I finish by stating that this is a partnership coalition, and that we want to make that partnership work. We are determined to make it work, and to give it every chance, because we genuinely believe that it is right for the country and not simply for sectional interests. I agree that those who are not in the coalition may be disappointed by the fact that they are not included. [Laughter.] The derisive laugher of SNP members suggests that we have been very wise in the arrangements that we have made. It points also to the fact that, if we cannot command a reasonable working arrangement in this chamber, the Parliament will get into great difficulties in deciding anything and will end up in some degree of confusion and chaos. The interesting—and, suspect, instinctive—response to my remark underlines that point.

Our aim is a partnership that is determined to raise educational standards, to give patient- centred health care, to create employment opportunities in Scotland, and to look to the social justice agenda. We aim to redress the balance, by placing the emphasis on helping those in almost all of our communities whose prospects are damaged by cruel circumstances over which they have no control. I would like to think that members from all parts of the chamber would be prepared to help with that agenda. I also believe that the Administration must be committed to it, and that that Administration is the one that I commend to the chamber now. It is a ministerial team that is ready for action, that is committed to delivery, and which has considerable talent and energy. I very much hope that it will get what it needs: the support of those who sit in our Parliament.

I am honoured and delighted to move the motion. I move,

That this Parliament agrees that James Wallace, Sam Galbraith, Henry McLeish, Jack McConnell, Susan Deacon, Tom McCabe, Ross Finnie, Wendy Alexander, Sarah Boyack be appointed as Ministers.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703593", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 55.0, "ContributionID": 703593, "EditedText": "Amendments moved: S1M-4.1, to leave out \"James Wallace\" and \"Ross Finnie\".—Lord James Douglas-Hamilton.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendments moved: S1M-4.1, to leave out \"James Wallace\" and \"Ross Finnie\".—[Lord James Douglas-Hamilton.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C703597", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 62.0, "ContributionID": 703597, "EditedText": "I am interested in the absolutism of Mr McLetchie's argument, the implication of which seems to be that he is in favour of free higher education. Why then did the Conservatives introduce loans, and why does he not advocate their abolition?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am interested in the absolutism of Mr McLetchie's argument, the implication of which seems to be that he is in favour of free higher education. Why then did the Conservatives introduce loans, and why does he not advocate their abolition?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1985E207P501C703603", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hamilton, Mr Duncan", "ID": 1985, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Duncan Hamilton (Highlands and Islands) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 76.0, "ContributionID": 703603, "EditedText": "Did not Mr Lyon give an unalterable commitment—during the campaign in Argyll and Bute, which he and I shared so comfortably—to the abolition of tuition fees? That commitment now seems to be on the back burner, with the result that we must wait and see what happens. If he gave such a commitment, would not his election to that constituency be a mandate to stay true to his principles rather than to sell out in this way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Did not Mr Lyon give an unalterable commitment—during the campaign in Argyll and Bute, which he and I shared so comfortably—to the abolition of tuition fees? That commitment now seems to be on the back burner, with the result that we must wait and see what happens. If he gave such a commitment, would not his election to that constituency be a mandate to stay true to his principles rather than to sell out in this way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C703604", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 78.0, "ContributionID": 703604, "EditedText": "There is no sell-out. During the campaign, I stated that we were opposed to tuition fees; we will testify to the inquiry on that basis. I take it that the SNP and the Tory party will do the same. We hope that the inquiry will return a verdict that will support our position. I will listen to that verdict before we vote on the subject. That is what is stated in the partnership document and we agree with it.", "EditedTextHTML": "There is no sell-out. During the campaign, I stated that we were opposed to tuition fees; we will testify to the inquiry on that basis. I take it that the SNP and the Tory party will do the same. We hope that the inquiry will return a verdict that will support our position. I will listen to that verdict before we vote on the subject. That is what is stated in the partnership document and we agree with it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1863E284P532C703609", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Cunningham, Roseanna", "ID": 1863, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Perth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Roseanna Cunningham", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Roseanna Cunningham (Perth) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 89.0, "ContributionID": 703609, "EditedText": "I object specifically to the inclusion of Jim Wallace's name in the list of ministers as Minister for Justice, but I cannot help but comment on the farrago of nonsense that we have just heard from one of the Liberal Democrat members. Mr Lyon showed in his speech that the Liberal Democrat manifesto contained virtually nothing that we can take as a promise. Being the first Minister for Justice in our nation is a hugely responsible task. I must ask whether Jim Wallace has shown any real responsibility in recent weeks. I, too, have read the consultative steering group report; it makes somewhat nostalgic reading already. Jim Wallace was an assiduous member of that group. Its report talked in terms of open, accessible and participative government, yet he has connived at creating a situation where this debate is the only forum in which we can raise issues about the so-called partnership agreement between the Liberal Democrats and new Labour—so much for the new politics. Members have, in effect, been presented with a fait accompli. On a number of matters—tuition fees is perhaps the most contentious, but it is not the only one, as we have heard—the majority in Parliament will be overridden or side-stepped. That is not democracy and it is not what the people expected. It is neither open nor just. We are in danger of engendering disappointment and alienation among voters. We are being asked to approve someone who claimed that a key manifesto promise was nothing more than election rhetoric. I wonder just what the word promise means in these circumstances. Perhaps Jim Wallace will take the opportunity later today to outline how much of the Liberal Democrat manifesto was nothing more than election rhetoric. Many Liberal Democrat members—including some who are in the chamber today—and a vast number of their voters must be considering the nature of trust. Liberal Democrats made promises that were not going to be kept. Mr Wallace has shown that he and his party are not to be trusted. Either he conducted the campaign in bad faith or he is now open to the accusation that he is a naive dupe. Either way, it does not look good on his CV. Jim Wallace claims to be a Liberal Democrat. I see little liberalism or democracy in his behaviour, and precious little justice, so I support the amendment to have his name struck from the list of ministers.", "EditedTextHTML": "I object specifically to the inclusion of Jim Wallace's name in the list of ministers as Minister for Justice, but I cannot help but comment on the farrago of nonsense that we have just heard from one of the Liberal Democrat members. Mr Lyon showed in his speech that the Liberal Democrat manifesto contained virtually nothing that we can take as a promise.

Being the first Minister for Justice in our nation is a hugely responsible task. I must ask whether Jim Wallace has shown any real responsibility in recent weeks. I, too, have read the consultative steering group report; it makes somewhat nostalgic reading already. Jim Wallace was an assiduous member of that group. Its report talked in terms of open, accessible and participative government, yet he has connived at creating a situation where this debate is the only forum in which we can raise issues about the so-called partnership agreement between the Liberal Democrats and new Labour—so much for the new politics.

Members have, in effect, been presented with a fait accompli. On a number of matters—tuition fees is perhaps the most contentious, but it is not the only one, as we have heard—the majority in Parliament will be overridden or side-stepped. That is not democracy and it is not what the people expected. It is neither open nor just. We are in danger of engendering disappointment and alienation among voters.

We are being asked to approve someone who claimed that a key manifesto promise was nothing more than election rhetoric. I wonder just what the word promise means in these circumstances. Perhaps Jim Wallace will take the opportunity later today to outline how much of the Liberal Democrat manifesto was nothing more than election rhetoric.

Many Liberal Democrat members—including some who are in the chamber today—and a vast number of their voters must be considering the nature of trust. Liberal Democrats made promises that were not going to be kept. Mr Wallace has shown that he and his party are not to be trusted. Either he conducted the campaign in bad faith or he is now open to the accusation that he is a naive dupe. Either way, it does not look good on his CV.

Jim Wallace claims to be a Liberal Democrat. I see little liberalism or democracy in his behaviour, and precious little justice, so I support the amendment to have his name struck from the list of ministers.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2123E103P242C703610", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Chisholm, Malcolm", "ID": 2123, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh North and Leith" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Malcolm Chisholm", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 92.0, "ContributionID": 703610, "EditedText": "Three criticisms have been made of the selection of ministers. They concern the number of ministers, their quality and matters relating to the coalition. Mr McLetchie objected to the number of ministers. He would admit that the way in which for 100 years the Scottish Office has been run by five ministers has hardly been a model of good government. I have a limited personal experience of that; I assure members that covering the number of portfolios that Scottish Office ministers used to cover in the bad old days is not a recipe for good government. I commend the First Minister for addressing that problem and ensuring that government in Scotland can be conducted much more efficiently than it has been in the past. The problem of quality on the Government benches has been the embarrassment of riches among the new members. I have found this Parliament a more competitive environment than Westminster when it comes to appointments, but that is a good sign. It indicates the very high quality of Labour members, who are the only ones for whom I will speak. Another noted achievement, which should be celebrated today and on many other days, is that 50 per cent of our members are women. As far as I know, we are the only substantial group in any parliament in the world of which that is so. We should continually receive praise from the people of Scotland for that achievement, which I hope all the other parties will emulate. That achievement has resulted in the appointment to the Cabinet of three remarkable women. As two of them are my neighbouring MSPs, members will forgive me for mentioning them. Sarah Boyack was born to be Minister for Transport and the Environment. Combining those two portfolios for the first time represents an imaginative realignment in the Scottish Office. Susan Deacon has a key appointment as Minister for Health and Community Care. Since the Government was elected in 1997, it has taken a broad view of health policy, which will lead to an attack on health inequality in particular. Susan is clearly the ideal person to drive health policy forward. Lest I forget, the third woman is Wendy Alexander, who worked with me on the matters that she covers in the Scottish Office. I can vouch for her great expertise in those areas. I perhaps gave those three women the political kiss of death when I said in the Edinburgh Evening News that one of them would be the next First Minister, but no doubt we will see in time. The third criticism of the selection of ministers relates to the coalition. What we are trying to achieve in this Parliament is a different way of doing things—those of us who have come from Westminster will be aware of that. We should ask ourselves at all times whether we are doing things differently. The fact that parties will have different relationships to one another is a key plank of the new politics. Given that we had a voting system that was unlikely to deliver an overall majority, I fail to see how anyone can complain about the fact that two parties are working together in a new way. That does not mean that the Labour party will not work differently with other parties as well. I hope that Labour will have a new working relationship with the Tories and with the SNP, although, because of past enmities, that will be difficult to achieve. There will always be a fundamental divide between Labour and the SNP on the constitutional question, but I hope that, in substantive policy areas such as health and housing, we can work in a way that is unlike the Westminster style. Parties working differently together is not the only point of the new politics. I have two other points to make.", "EditedTextHTML": "Three criticisms have been made of the selection of ministers. They concern the number of ministers, their quality and matters relating to the coalition.

Mr McLetchie objected to the number of ministers. He would admit that the way in which for 100 years the Scottish Office has been run by five ministers has hardly been a model of good government. I have a limited personal experience of that; I assure members that covering the number of portfolios that Scottish Office ministers used to cover in the bad old days is not a recipe for good government. I commend the First Minister for addressing that problem and ensuring that government in Scotland can be conducted much more efficiently than it has been in the past.

The problem of quality on the Government benches has been the embarrassment of riches among the new members. I have found this Parliament a more competitive environment than Westminster when it comes to appointments, but that is a good sign. It indicates the very high quality of Labour members, who are the only ones for whom I will speak.

Another noted achievement, which should be celebrated today and on many other days, is that 50 per cent of our members are women. As far as I know, we are the only substantial group in any parliament in the world of which that is so. We should continually receive praise from the people of Scotland for that achievement, which I hope all the other parties will emulate.

That achievement has resulted in the appointment to the Cabinet of three remarkable women. As two of them are my neighbouring MSPs, members will forgive me for mentioning them. Sarah Boyack was born to be Minister for Transport and the Environment. Combining those two portfolios for the first time represents an imaginative realignment in the Scottish Office.

Susan Deacon has a key appointment as Minister for Health and Community Care. Since the Government was elected in 1997, it has taken a broad view of health policy, which will lead to an attack on health inequality in particular. Susan is clearly the ideal person to drive health policy forward.

Lest I forget, the third woman is Wendy Alexander, who worked with me on the matters that she covers in the Scottish Office. I can vouch for her great expertise in those areas.

I perhaps gave those three women the political kiss of death when I said in the Edinburgh Evening News that one of them would be the next First Minister, but no doubt we will see in time.

The third criticism of the selection of ministers relates to the coalition. What we are trying to achieve in this Parliament is a different way of

doing things—those of us who have come from Westminster will be aware of that. We should ask ourselves at all times whether we are doing things differently.

The fact that parties will have different relationships to one another is a key plank of the new politics. Given that we had a voting system that was unlikely to deliver an overall majority, I fail to see how anyone can complain about the fact that two parties are working together in a new way.

That does not mean that the Labour party will not work differently with other parties as well. I hope that Labour will have a new working relationship with the Tories and with the SNP, although, because of past enmities, that will be difficult to achieve. There will always be a fundamental divide between Labour and the SNP on the constitutional question, but I hope that, in substantive policy areas such as health and housing, we can work in a way that is unlike the Westminster style.

Parties working differently together is not the only point of the new politics. I have two other points to make.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703626", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 127.0, "ContributionID": 703626, "EditedText": "Mr Robson, press your button only once. If you press it twice, you have had it.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Robson, press your button only once. If you press it twice, you have had it.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703623", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 121.0, "ContributionID": 703623, "EditedText": "I am sorry, but your microphone is not working. Did you fail to press the button?", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry, but your microphone is not working. Did you fail to press the button?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1990E181P340C703627", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robson, Euan", "ID": 1990, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Roxburgh and Berwickshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Euan Robson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Euan Robson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 129.0, "ContributionID": 703627, "EditedText": "I hope that Mr Lochhead will concede that the English-Scottish boundary is not the responsibility of the partnership agreement. It is clear that we need an early debate on that subject. It is also clear that the fishermen's associations were not consulted in any way, shape or form. Indeed, delegations are coming today to Parliament to talk about the subject. However, I hope that Mr Lochhead will accept that it is false and unacceptable to infer that that was some deal cooked up in the partnership programme for government. To illustrate the point, fishery protection officers in Eyemouth in my constituency— The Presiding Officer: Mr Robson, interventions have to be short.", "EditedTextHTML": "I hope that Mr Lochhead will concede that the English-Scottish boundary is not the responsibility of the partnership agreement.

It is clear that we need an early debate on that subject. It is also clear that the fishermen's associations were not consulted in any way, shape or form. Indeed, delegations are coming today to Parliament to talk about the subject. However, I hope that Mr Lochhead will accept that it is false and unacceptable to infer that that was some deal cooked up in the partnership programme for government. To illustrate the point, fishery protection officers in Eyemouth in my constituency— The Presiding Officer: Mr Robson, interventions have to be short.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1854E38P164C703629", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Godman, Trish", "ID": 1854, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Renfrewshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Trish Godman", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Trish Godman (West Renfrewshire) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 134.0, "ContributionID": 703629, "EditedText": "I shall speak against the amendment moved by David McLetchie. The people of Scotland elected this Parliament less than two weeks ago. On Thursday, we voted with an overall majority to appoint Donald Dewar as the First Minister. Now the parties that lost the election and which lost the vote for First Minister are showing that they are not prepared to accept the democratic verdict of the people of Scotland and of this Parliament. That gives the lie once and for all to the parties' protestations that they would make the Parliament work. As a team, the first Scottish Executive will lead the new Scotland into a new century, and we should be determined to make the new Scotland a showpiece of social justice and economic success. When Keir Hardie founded the Labour party 100 years ago and stated the case for a Scottish Parliament, he set in train the events that led to this Parliament. The Liberal Democrats also have a long and proud commitment to home rule. Because of that shared history, both parties co-operated to win the Parliament through the constitutional convention, the referendum campaign, the Scotland Act 1998 and the consultative steering group. This week, we delivered on our long-standing and principled commitments to make this Parliament work. Those principles towered above our party political differences. However, those differences should not be underestimated. The two parties have separate identities and different cultures and constituencies and fought tooth and nail for votes in the election, but they have been able to put those differences aside in service to the people of Scotland. The partnership into which we have entered ensures that the Parliament has the stability necessary to work for all the people of Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "I shall speak against the amendment moved by David McLetchie.

The people of Scotland elected this Parliament less than two weeks ago. On Thursday, we voted with an overall majority to appoint Donald Dewar as the First Minister. Now the parties that lost the election and which lost the vote for First Minister are showing that they are not prepared to accept

the democratic verdict of the people of Scotland and of this Parliament. That gives the lie once and for all to the parties' protestations that they would make the Parliament work.

As a team, the first Scottish Executive will lead the new Scotland into a new century, and we should be determined to make the new Scotland a showpiece of social justice and economic success. When Keir Hardie founded the Labour party 100 years ago and stated the case for a Scottish Parliament, he set in train the events that led to this Parliament. The Liberal Democrats also have a long and proud commitment to home rule.

Because of that shared history, both parties co-operated to win the Parliament through the constitutional convention, the referendum campaign, the Scotland Act 1998 and the consultative steering group. This week, we delivered on our long-standing and principled commitments to make this Parliament work. Those principles towered above our party political differences. However, those differences should not be underestimated. The two parties have separate identities and different cultures and constituencies and fought tooth and nail for votes in the election, but they have been able to put those differences aside in service to the people of Scotland.

The partnership into which we have entered ensures that the Parliament has the stability necessary to work for all the people of Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1990E181P340C703637", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robson, Euan", "ID": 1990, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Roxburgh and Berwickshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Euan Robson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Euan Robson (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 152.0, "ContributionID": 703637, "EditedText": "I support the motion. I have been especially interested in the debate on tuition fees and in Mary Scanlon's assumption about the outcome of the report into tuition fees and the debate that will follow it. My belief is that the partnership Government will offer stability, coherence and a sense of direction for the first four years of the Parliament. Such a climate is especially important for commerce and industry—I have had some comments from my constituency to that effect. The programme for the Government is sound, but it is clearly a starting point for the future. The programme will develop. It is too early to make a judgment on it—it should be judged at the end of four years. Despite that, there is a presumption among Opposition members that they know the outcome of the debate and the vote on tuition fees.", "EditedTextHTML": "I support the motion. I have been especially interested in the debate on tuition fees and in Mary Scanlon's assumption about the outcome of the report into tuition fees and the debate that will follow it.

My belief is that the partnership Government will offer stability, coherence and a sense of direction for the first four years of the Parliament. Such a climate is especially important for commerce and industry—I have had some comments from my constituency to that effect. The programme for the Government is sound, but it is clearly a starting point for the future. The programme will develop. It is too early to make a judgment on it—it should be judged at the end of four years. Despite that, there is a presumption among Opposition members that they know the outcome of the debate and the vote on tuition fees.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C703646", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan (Glasgow) (SSP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 173.0, "ContributionID": 703646, "EditedText": "I suppose that time will show that none of us has a monopoly on wisdom and, therefore, that those of us who believe that what has been cobbled together between Labour and the Liberals is a very shabby deal must wait to see the result in the future opinions of ordinary people in Scotland. It is obvious that members in the Labour and Liberal coalition believe that they have put together a stable Government that will deliver what they promised. The difficulty for the Liberal Democrats is that what they promised to deliver has been deleted within a week of discussion of the deal.", "EditedTextHTML": "I suppose that time will show that none of us has a monopoly on wisdom and, therefore, that those of us who believe that what has been cobbled together between Labour and the Liberals is a very shabby deal must wait to see the result in the future opinions of ordinary people in Scotland.

It is obvious that members in the Labour and Liberal coalition believe that they have put together a stable Government that will deliver what they promised. The difficulty for the Liberal Democrats is that what they promised to deliver

has been deleted within a week of discussion of the deal.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703651", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 183.0, "ContributionID": 703651, "EditedText": "You will not be able to give way later, as you have had nearly four minutes.", "EditedTextHTML": "You will not be able to give way later, as you have had nearly four minutes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1970E66P288C703653", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNulty, Des", "ID": 1970, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Clydebank and Milngavie" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Des McNulty", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Des McNulty (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 188.0, "ContributionID": 703653, "EditedText": "During the past two weeks, I have been struck, as I am sure have many other members, by the extent to which people of all shades of political opinion in Scotland are enthused about the prospect of the new Parliament and the opportunities it creates for better government of Scotland. Almost everybody to whom one speaks wants this Parliament to succeed. It is for that reason most of all, that I support the partnership agreement—it provides a framework for meeting the aspirations of the Scottish people. Whichever aspect of policy people are concerned with, the agreement delivers a secure and stable Government. I believe that the Government will operate in a new, different and more integrated way. It will seek solutions through extensive consultation and discussion—processes we are all committed to—that will transcend departmental and organisational boundaries. It will deliver, I hope, better co-ordinated and more effective action. Goodness knows, people have elected a Parliament for a purpose, not because it is a beautiful idea in principle. They want to change things and see effective action taken. That is what we are here for. This is about delivering for people. Effective action is vital across a range of policies, but I want to address the issue of public health and social work. The health inequalities in Scotland are an affront to our society and we must do something about them. I believe that all parties in the Parliament have an obligation to deal with the severe health inequalities that currently exist. On a number of occasions, as Minister for Health and the Arts, Sam Galbraith has highlighted the gulf in health between different parts of Scotland. The example commonly used is that of Bearsden and, just over the constituency boundary, Drumchapel. My constituency is a microcosm of the health inequalities in Scotland: in Clydebank there is poor health equivalent to that found in many parts of north and east Glasgow; at the other end of my constituency there are leafy suburbs, including not just Milngavie but a substantial part of Bearsden, where the health status of the population is much better. We have to deal with those health inequalities, which are to be found in areas that are so close to each other, in an integrated way. Under this Government, I am confident that one of the key priorities will be a general improvement in health and the tackling of health inequalities. A great deal has been done since 1997. I do not want to embarrass Sam Galbraith. He has ended the flawed internal market, poured substantial resources into front-line services in health and effectively promulgated the ethos of putting patients first. His biggest achievement was to reject decisively the blame culture established under the Conservative Government which, in effect, held poor people responsible for having worse health because of their poverty. That was unacceptable. We have to address the fact that poverty induces ill health. Social disadvantage, whether it is caused by poverty or by personal circumstances—which may affect individuals in any part of society—generates ill health. Ill health reduces people's opportunities and disfigures their lives.", "EditedTextHTML": "During the past two weeks, I have been struck, as I am sure have many other members, by the extent to which people of all shades of political opinion in Scotland are enthused about the prospect of the new Parliament and the opportunities it creates for better government of Scotland. Almost everybody to whom one speaks wants this Parliament to succeed. It is for that reason most of all, that I support the partnership agreement—it provides a framework for meeting the aspirations of the Scottish people.

Whichever aspect of policy people are concerned with, the agreement delivers a secure and stable Government. I believe that the Government will operate in a new, different and more integrated way. It will seek solutions through extensive consultation and discussion—processes we are all committed to—that will transcend departmental and organisational boundaries. It will deliver, I hope, better co-ordinated and more effective action. Goodness knows, people have elected a Parliament for a purpose, not because it is a beautiful idea in principle. They want to change things and see effective action taken. That is what we are here for. This is about delivering for people.

Effective action is vital across a range of policies, but I want to address the issue of public health and social work. The health inequalities in Scotland are an affront to our society and we must do something about them. I believe that all parties in the Parliament have an obligation to deal with the severe health inequalities that currently exist.

On a number of occasions, as Minister for Health and the Arts, Sam Galbraith has highlighted the gulf in health between different parts of Scotland. The example commonly used is that of Bearsden and, just over the constituency boundary, Drumchapel. My constituency is a microcosm of the health inequalities in Scotland: in Clydebank there is poor health equivalent to that found in many parts of north and east Glasgow; at the other end of my constituency there are leafy suburbs, including not just Milngavie but a substantial part of Bearsden, where the health status of the population is much better. We have to deal with those health inequalities, which are to be found in areas that are so close to each other, in an integrated way. Under this Government, I am confident that one of the key priorities will be a general improvement in health and the tackling of health inequalities.

A great deal has been done since 1997. I do not want to embarrass Sam Galbraith. He has ended the flawed internal market, poured substantial resources into front-line services in health and effectively promulgated the ethos of putting patients first. His biggest achievement was to reject decisively the blame culture established under the Conservative Government which, in effect, held poor people responsible for having worse health because of their poverty. That was unacceptable.

We have to address the fact that poverty induces ill health. Social disadvantage, whether it is caused by poverty or by personal circumstances—which may affect individuals in any part of society—generates ill health. Ill health reduces people's opportunities and disfigures their lives.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703654", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 190.0, "ContributionID": 703654, "EditedText": "I am sorry to interrupt, but time is running out.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry to interrupt, but time is running out.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703661", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 205.0, "ContributionID": 703661, "EditedText": "I am sorry, your time is up.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry, your time is up.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2029E47P167C703669", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Henry, Hugh", "ID": 2029, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Hugh Henry", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Hugh Henry: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 222.0, "ContributionID": 703669, "EditedText": "For too long we have neglected many in our society who have not had the opportunity to fulfil their true potential. This debate should be about giving those people that opportunity, creating a new Scotland, creating new debate and creating new policies.", "EditedTextHTML": "For too long we have neglected many in our society who have not had the opportunity to fulfil their true potential. This debate should be about giving those people that opportunity, creating a new Scotland, creating new debate and creating new policies.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2117E79P104C703671", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macdonald, Lewis", "ID": 2117, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lewis Macdonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Lewis Macdonald (Aberdeen Central) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 228.0, "ContributionID": 703671, "EditedText": "I welcome the nomination of an Executive to represent the whole of Scotland and to highlight the priorities for Government. In my constituency of Aberdeen Central, there are areas of severe urban deprivation. There will be a warm welcome there for the creation of a ministry for social inclusion. Aberdeen is also at the heart of a wide rural hinterland; there will also be a warm welcome for the creation of a specific ministry for rural affairs. Important city-based industries such as paper and food look to the country areas as a source of supply; people from country areas come into town for their health services, higher education and much else. So central is Aberdeen to the rural north-east that Aberdeenshire Council, as well as the city council, is headquartered in my constituency. Beside all those things and beside all the economic links, there are family ties; today, most relevantly, there are shared values. I am confident that in both town and country in the north-east, there will be broad support for the principles which underlie the partnership agreement that has been presented today: principles of working together on a co-operative basis and of seeking to make this Parliament work not as a Westminster in miniature and not as a stepping-stone to independence, but as an open, accessible and new Parliament in its own right.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the nomination of an Executive to represent the whole of Scotland and to highlight the priorities for Government.

In my constituency of Aberdeen Central, there are areas of severe urban deprivation. There will be a warm welcome there for the creation of a ministry for social inclusion.

Aberdeen is also at the heart of a wide rural hinterland; there will also be a warm welcome for the creation of a specific ministry for rural affairs. Important city-based industries such as paper and food look to the country areas as a source of supply; people from country areas come into town for their health services, higher education and much else. So central is Aberdeen to the rural north-east that Aberdeenshire Council, as well as the city council, is headquartered in my constituency.

Beside all those things and beside all the economic links, there are family ties; today, most relevantly, there are shared values. I am confident that in both town and country in the north-east, there will be broad support for the principles which underlie the partnership agreement that has been presented today: principles of working together on a co-operative basis and of seeking to make this Parliament work not as a Westminster in miniature and not as a stepping-stone to independence, but as an open, accessible and new Parliament in its own right.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2117E79P104C703675", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macdonald, Lewis", "ID": 2117, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lewis Macdonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Lewis Macdonald: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 236.0, "ContributionID": 703675, "EditedText": "The ministry for rural affairs will also develop policy and by its very existence send out the right signals about the priority that this Parliament gives to rural areas. I am disappointed that some of the parties here choose, as their first reaction to the proposal to create a ministry for rural affairs, to seek to delay the appointment of a minister. On the contrary, we should endorse the appointment of Ross Finnie and give rural issues the priority that they deserve.", "EditedTextHTML": "The ministry for rural affairs will also develop policy and by its very existence send out the right signals about the priority that this Parliament gives to rural areas. I am disappointed that some of the parties here choose, as their first reaction to the proposal to create a ministry for rural affairs, to seek to delay the appointment of a minister. On the contrary, we should endorse the appointment of Ross Finnie and give rural issues the priority that they deserve.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1865E219P509C703684", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "White, Sandra", "ID": 1865, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sandra White", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms White: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 257.0, "ContributionID": 703684, "EditedText": "Will Mr Wallace give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr Wallace give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C703685", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 259.0, "ContributionID": 703685, "EditedText": "As a reputed minister for justice, I feel that when someone is in the dock they should be given the chance to answer the charges against them. In the new politics, in which the voting system was always likely to make all parties minorities, we said all along that we would be willing to talk to the party with the largest number of seats, to consider whether a partnership agreement for a stable and effective Government could be achieved. By their votes, it was the people of Scotland who shaped the composition of this Parliament. It is up to us, the elected members of the Scottish Parliament, to make the effort to secure fair, stable and effective government, recognising that no single party has been given unlimited power by the people of Scotland. We talked for four days to achieve our negotiated partnership. It is a partnership that will last for four years. As Trish Godman said, our partnership agreement is open and it is on the record. We will be accountable according to that partnership agreement. The alternative would be four years of a hamstrung minority Government, with deals being cobbled together on the back stairs night after night. There would be no accountability and no notion of what was being traded for what.", "EditedTextHTML": "As a reputed minister for justice, I feel that when someone is in the dock they should be given the chance to answer the charges against them.

In the new politics, in which the voting system was always likely to make all parties minorities, we said all along that we would be willing to talk to the party with the largest number of seats, to consider whether a partnership agreement for a stable and effective Government could be achieved. By their votes, it was the people of Scotland who shaped the composition of this Parliament. It is up to us, the elected members of the Scottish Parliament, to make the effort to secure fair, stable and effective government, recognising that no single party has been given unlimited power by the people of Scotland. We talked for four days to achieve our negotiated partnership. It is a partnership that will last for four years. As Trish Godman said, our partnership agreement is open and it is on the record. We will be accountable according to that partnership agreement. The alternative would be four years of a hamstrung minority Government, with deals being cobbled together on the back stairs night after night. There would be no accountability and no notion of what was being traded for what.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C703689", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 267.0, "ContributionID": 703689, "EditedText": "The committee of inquiry is supported not only by the Committee of Scottish Higher Education Principals and by the Association of University Teachers, but by the National Union of Students (Scotland) which, like us, oppose tuition fees. I wonder whether the Conservative party and the SNP will present evidence to the committee, as the Liberal Democrats will. Much has been said about principles. A belief in the basic worth, merit and integrity of every individual is what drives me as a liberal and as a Liberal Democrat. I believe in freedom from ignorance, and our policies are to improve access to and to invest in education. I believe in freedom from disease, and our policies will bring about a patient-centred health service, tackling bad health and promoting good health. I believe in freedom for each individual to fulfil his or her potential, and that is why we want to tap the reservoir of enterprise and to tackle the vicious circle of deprivation and underachievement. Those are fundamental principles to me and to my party. They are such important principles that I do not want just to talk about them; I want to do something about them. That is why we are prepared to go into government and put those principles into practice.", "EditedTextHTML": "The committee of inquiry is supported not only by the Committee of Scottish Higher Education Principals and by the Association of University Teachers, but by the National Union of Students (Scotland) which, like us, oppose tuition fees. I wonder whether the Conservative party and the SNP will present evidence to the committee, as the Liberal Democrats will.

Much has been said about principles. A belief in the basic worth, merit and integrity of every individual is what drives me as a liberal and as a Liberal Democrat. I believe in freedom from ignorance, and our policies are to improve access to and to invest in education. I believe in freedom from disease, and our policies will bring about a patient-centred health service, tackling bad health and promoting good health. I believe in freedom for each individual to fulfil his or her potential, and that is why we want to tap the reservoir of enterprise and to tackle the vicious circle of deprivation and underachievement. Those are fundamental principles to me and to my party. They are such important principles that I do not want just to talk about them; I want to do something about them. That is why we are prepared to go into government and put those principles into practice.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703691", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 271.0, "ContributionID": 703691, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703695", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 278.0, "ContributionID": 703695, "EditedText": "Amendment disagreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment disagreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703696", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 279.0, "ContributionID": 703696, "EditedText": "We come next to the amendment in the name of Mr Swinney: S1M-4.3, to leave out \"Henry McLeish\".The question is, that the amendment be agreed to. Are we all agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "We come next to the amendment in the name of Mr Swinney:

S1M-4.3, to leave out \"Henry McLeish\".

The question is, that the amendment be agreed to. Are we all agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703697", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 281.0, "ContributionID": 703697, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703700", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 286.0, "ContributionID": 703700, "EditedText": "The result of the division is as follows: For 33, Against 70, Abstentions 18.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result of the division is as follows: For 33, Against 70, Abstentions 18.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703707", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 298.0, "ContributionID": 703707, "EditedText": "The result of the division is as follows: For 70, Against 38, Abstentions 11.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result of the division is as follows: For 70, Against 38, Abstentions 11.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703708", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 300.0, "ContributionID": 703708, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703711", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 305.0, "ContributionID": 703711, "EditedText": "On resuming—", "EditedTextHTML": "On resuming—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703712", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 307.0, "ContributionID": 703712, "EditedText": "The next business is a debate on a motion from the First Minister, which seeks the agreement of the Parliament to the appointment of the junior Scottish ministers. I will put the question on the motion and on the amendment no later than one hour after the First Minister has opened the debate. I intend to select amendment S1M-5.1, as printed in the business bulletin.", "EditedTextHTML": "The next business is a debate on a motion from the First Minister, which seeks the agreement of the Parliament to the appointment of the junior Scottish ministers. I will put the question on the motion and on the amendment no later than one hour after the First Minister has opened the debate. I intend to select amendment S1M-5.1, as printed in the business bulletin.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C703713", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister (Donald Dewar): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 310.0, "ContributionID": 703713, "EditedText": "I will be brief. We are debating the list of ministers outwith the Cabinet. Of course, I have no difficulty in commending the names on that list to members. I know that there has been some criticism of the size of the list. Mr David McLetchie made reference to that in this morning's debate. He used the phrase \"an explosion of bureaucracy and red tape\".He said that he was looking for a \"smaller, smarter\" Administration that was not \"bloated\"—to use his happy word. I do not know whether my colleagues qualify as being bloated but the only explosion was probably of rhetoric. I submit to the Parliament that there is a need for proper supervision of the Administration and for adequate scrutiny. As many people have said today, anyone who has served in the Scottish Office or who has a knowledge of the stress, strain and difficulty of stretching political scrutiny across the vast range of responsibilities previously held by the Scottish Office and now passed to this Parliament will understand why I believe that there must be an adequate group of ministers, each specialising in a particular area. I want to make a small prediction. I may be wrong, but I predict that over the next week or two there will be criticism that we do not have an individual minister for such-and-such an area. If members look through the party manifestos—I would not necessarily recommend anyone to do so—they will see that those documents are sprinkled with demands for not just ministers, but separate ministries for a number of areas. I noticed in the press today that there was criticism of the fact that we do not have a separate ministry for tourism, as distinct from a minister responsible for tourism. The pressure may be to increase ministerial coverage, not to restrict it. On the Cabinet side, we have a good basis. This is an occasion on which, surprisingly, I am totally at one with the Scottish National party. I took the trouble to look at its manifesto, which, at the back, describes the nine key posts that the SNP believes should make up the Cabinet. If one adds a business manager and the Lord Advocate, who everyone would expect to be included, we arrive at exactly the same number of ministers, with a large overlap of responsibility and definition. I suspect that it will become clear that our choices for the junior posts are wise and well defined.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will be brief. We are debating the list of ministers outwith the Cabinet. Of course, I have no difficulty in commending the names on that list to members. I know that there has been some criticism of the size of the list. Mr David McLetchie made reference to that in this morning's debate. He used the phrase

\"an explosion of bureaucracy and red tape\".

He said that he was looking for a \"smaller, smarter\" Administration that was not \"bloated\"—to use his happy word. I do not know whether my colleagues qualify as being bloated but the only explosion was probably of rhetoric.

I submit to the Parliament that there is a need for proper supervision of the Administration and for adequate scrutiny. As many people have said today, anyone who has served in the Scottish Office or who has a knowledge of the stress, strain and difficulty of stretching political scrutiny across the vast range of responsibilities previously held by the Scottish Office and now passed to this Parliament will understand why I believe that there must be an adequate group of ministers, each specialising in a particular area.

I want to make a small prediction. I may be wrong, but I predict that over the next week or two there will be criticism that we do not have an individual minister for such-and-such an area. If members look through the party manifestos—I would not necessarily recommend anyone to do so—they will see that those documents are sprinkled with demands for not just ministers, but separate ministries for a number of areas. I noticed in the press today that there was criticism of the fact that we do not have a separate ministry for tourism, as distinct from a minister responsible for tourism. The pressure may be to increase ministerial coverage, not to restrict it.

On the Cabinet side, we have a good basis. This is an occasion on which, surprisingly, I am totally at one with the Scottish National party. I took the trouble to look at its manifesto, which, at the back, describes the nine key posts that the SNP believes should make up the Cabinet. If one adds a business manager and the Lord Advocate, who everyone would expect to be included, we arrive at exactly the same number of ministers, with a large overlap of responsibility and definition. I suspect that it will become clear that our choices for the junior posts are wise and well defined.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C703717", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 318.0, "ContributionID": 703717, "EditedText": "I give way for the last time.", "EditedTextHTML": "I give way for the last time.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703726", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 337.0, "ContributionID": 703726, "EditedText": "Could you wind up?", "EditedTextHTML": "Could you wind up?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703728", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 341.0, "ContributionID": 703728, "EditedText": "Mr Gallie, I take it that you were moving the amendment to leave out Nicol Stephen and Iain Smith from the list of appointments.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Gallie, I take it that you were moving the amendment to leave out Nicol Stephen and Iain Smith from the list of appointments.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C703729", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 343.0, "ContributionID": 703729, "EditedText": "I thought that I had done that at the beginning when I referred to Annabel Goldie's intention. That was my intention at that time.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thought that I had done that at the beginning when I referred to Annabel Goldie's intention. That was my intention at that time.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C703732", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Keith Raffan (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 351.0, "ContributionID": 703732, "EditedText": "I support the First Minister's motion on junior ministers. It is with particular pleasure that I support the two nominees whom I know well as friends and colleagues: Nicol Stephen and Iain Smith. I respect their ability, experience and integrity. I also wish the other nominees for junior minister well. I take this opportunity to wish the First Minister well. I did not vote for him last week, but there was nothing personal in that. I did not feel that it was right to hold the vote on the First Minister before the composition of his Administration was clear, as it now is. I have a high regard for the First Minister. We go back a long way—back to 1966, when I unsuccessfully tried to prevent him from becoming the member of Parliament for Aberdeen South. I wish him and his Administration every success for the country's sake. I did not vote for the partnership agreement. That was a very difficult decision for me to take as our negotiators achieved far more than I expected. As a result, there is a lot of good in the agreement. Negotiation is difficult, as the SNP should realise. After all, it has been in coalition in a number of local authorities.", "EditedTextHTML": "I support the First Minister's motion on junior ministers. It is with particular pleasure that I support the two nominees whom I know well as friends and colleagues: Nicol Stephen and Iain Smith. I respect their ability, experience and integrity. I also wish the other nominees for junior minister well.

I take this opportunity to wish the First Minister well. I did not vote for him last week, but there was nothing personal in that. I did not feel that it was right to hold the vote on the First Minister before the composition of his Administration was clear, as it now is. I have a high regard for the First Minister. We go back a long way—back to 1966, when I unsuccessfully tried to prevent him from becoming the member of Parliament for Aberdeen South. I wish him and his Administration every success for the country's sake.

I did not vote for the partnership agreement. That was a very difficult decision for me to take as our negotiators achieved far more than I expected. As a result, there is a lot of good in the agreement. Negotiation is difficult, as the SNP should realise. After all, it has been in coalition in a number of local authorities.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2188E70P92C703733", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harper, Robin", "ID": 2188, "PartyName": "Scottish Green Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Green", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robin Harper", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robin Harper (Lothians) (Green) rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 353.0, "ContributionID": 703733, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C703735", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ms Patricia Ferguson): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 357.0, "ContributionID": 703735, "EditedText": "Mr Harper, please sit down. Mr Raffan is not going to give way.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Harper, please sit down. Mr Raffan is not going to give way.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C703736", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 359.0, "ContributionID": 703736, "EditedText": "To be fair to the Conservatives—I am always fair to them—they turned the offer down. It is interesting that the SNP actually approached the Conservatives, perhaps foreshadowing the strange alliance between the two parties that we see in this Parliament today. I am now happy to give way to Mr Harper.", "EditedTextHTML": "To be fair to the Conservatives—I am always fair to them—they turned the offer down. It is interesting that the SNP actually approached the Conservatives, perhaps foreshadowing the strange alliance between the two parties that we see in this Parliament today.

I am now happy to give way to Mr Harper.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C703740", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 367.0, "ContributionID": 703740, "EditedText": "On a point of order, Deputy Presiding Officer. This is a speech.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order, Deputy Presiding Officer. This is a speech.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C703744", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 375.0, "ContributionID": 703744, "EditedText": "Could you wind up please, Mr Raffan?", "EditedTextHTML": "Could you wind up please, Mr Raffan?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C703748", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 383.0, "ContributionID": 703748, "EditedText": "At the beginning of this afternoon's proceedings, Sir David said that, if members used all their time, not all those who wanted to speak would be able to. If people exceed their time, the difficulty becomes even worse.", "EditedTextHTML": "At the beginning of this afternoon's proceedings, Sir David said that, if members used all their time, not all those who wanted to speak would be able to. If people exceed their time, the difficulty becomes even worse.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1908E166P251C703751", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Kerr, Andy", "ID": 1908, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "East Kilbride" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andy Kerr", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Andy Kerr (East Kilbride) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 390.0, "ContributionID": 703751, "EditedText": "There has been a lot of talk today of settled wills. There were continuous references to tuition fees this morning, but I thought that the settled will of the Scottish people was this: 71 per cent of them voted against independence. The SNP tried to hide independence at number 10 on its list of pledges, which was interesting. As to the new politics, are we supposed to take Phil Gallie's word before that of the chief scientific officers? I would err on the side of caution and certainly not take Phil Gallie's word about beef on the bone. We should be discussing some of the issues that are at stake in terms of the ministries. Ministries exist to do a job. Last Thursday, we elected the First Minister with a clear majority; the other three candidates somewhat disappeared. When the two parties sat down and discussed the \"Partnership for Scotland\" agreement, things were taken from both manifestos. The agreement was brought to the Parliament; people have had a chance to look at it and it has been agreed by the majority of members. Labour and the Liberal Democrats have come together and agreed to create a ministry for enterprise and lifelong learning to deliver a sustainable economy for Scotland. That gives focus to the delivery in Scotland of Labour's pledge to young people—the new deal—and to the 20,000 modern apprenticeships that were promised and will be delivered by the Labour party. As someone who represents East Kilbride, which is well known for innovation, economic development and employment in a new town, I believe that that ministry has a great role to play. I ask the minister, after he has taken office on 1 July, to visit East Kilbride to see some of the good examples that we have set. We want to increase the number of business start-ups. The role of one of the ministries is to develop 100,000 new businesses in Scotland in order to increase and stabilise employment. We must ensure a balance of responsibilities between home and working life to enable people to educate themselves—that is part of lifelong learning and also a role for one of the ministries. Yes, a debate over tuition fees will occur, but not as people have said. This is the Scottish Parliament, not Westminster, where things are put to committee and then disappear. The committee of inquiry will be run in the interests of members and it will report back with recommendations. Putting tuition fees aside, because we have an agreed position on them, we can perhaps discuss maturely the real business for today. We should agree the appointment of ministers, not endlessly discuss tuition fees. The reality is that 54 per cent of students do not pay tuition fees, 23 per cent pay partial fees and 23 per cent pay the full fees. Members should also remember the 42,000 extra places for students in Scotland—equivalent to the number of students at Edinburgh and Glasgow universities put together. Those are the real issues for today, which I hope the Opposition parties will debate.", "EditedTextHTML": "There has been a lot of talk today of settled wills. There were continuous references to tuition fees this morning, but I thought that the settled will of the Scottish people was this: 71 per cent of them voted against independence. The SNP tried to hide independence at number 10 on its list of pledges, which was interesting.

As to the new politics, are we supposed to take Phil Gallie's word before that of the chief scientific officers? I would err on the side of caution and certainly not take Phil Gallie's word about beef on the bone.

We should be discussing some of the issues that are at stake in terms of the ministries. Ministries exist to do a job. Last Thursday, we elected the First Minister with a clear majority; the other three candidates somewhat disappeared.

When the two parties sat down and discussed the \"Partnership for Scotland\" agreement, things were taken from both manifestos. The agreement was brought to the Parliament; people have had a chance to look at it and it has been agreed by the majority of members.

Labour and the Liberal Democrats have come together and agreed to create a ministry for enterprise and lifelong learning to deliver a sustainable economy for Scotland. That gives focus to the delivery in Scotland of Labour's pledge to young people—the new deal—and to the 20,000 modern apprenticeships that were promised and will be delivered by the Labour party.

As someone who represents East Kilbride, which is well known for innovation, economic development and employment in a new town, I believe that that ministry has a great role to play. I ask the minister, after he has taken office on 1 July, to visit East Kilbride to see some of the good examples that we have set.

We want to increase the number of business start-ups. The role of one of the ministries is to develop 100,000 new businesses in Scotland in order to increase and stabilise employment. We must ensure a balance of responsibilities between home and working life to enable people to educate themselves—that is part of lifelong learning and also a role for one of the ministries.

Yes, a debate over tuition fees will occur, but not as people have said. This is the Scottish Parliament, not Westminster, where things are put to committee and then disappear. The committee of inquiry will be run in the interests of members and it will report back with recommendations.

Putting tuition fees aside, because we have an agreed position on them, we can perhaps discuss maturely the real business for today. We should agree the appointment of ministers, not endlessly discuss tuition fees. The reality is that 54 per cent of students do not pay tuition fees, 23 per cent pay partial fees and 23 per cent pay the full fees. Members should also remember the 42,000 extra places for students in Scotland—equivalent to the number of students at Edinburgh and Glasgow universities put together. Those are the real issues for today, which I hope the Opposition parties will debate.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C703764", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Richard Simpson (Ochil) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 422.0, "ContributionID": 703764, "EditedText": "I had a fixed speech with which to address this chamber. However, as a new member of this parliament—as we all are—I find it difficult that we are repeating a debate on all the issues with which we dealt this morning, on which there was a vote and on which the SNP and the Conservatives were roundly defeated. What we are going through is a complete waste of time. I do not deny the right of members to speak on the matter, but if this chamber is going to constantly reiterate the same arguments, we will be faced with a situation similar to that of the Houses of Parliament, where the seats are empty. I for one am not going to sit here and listen to repeated arguments the whole time.", "EditedTextHTML": "I had a fixed speech with which to address this chamber. However, as a new member of this parliament—as we all are—I find it difficult that we are repeating a debate on all the issues with which we dealt this morning, on which there was a vote and on which the SNP and the Conservatives were roundly defeated. What we are going through is a complete waste of time. I do not deny the right of members to speak on the matter, but if this chamber is going to constantly reiterate the same arguments, we will be faced with a situation similar to that of the Houses of Parliament, where the seats are empty. I for one am not going to sit here and listen to repeated arguments the whole time.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C703778", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 452.0, "ContributionID": 703778, "EditedText": "I do not have time. Keith Raffan will not have the choice that we will have, because he is tied into the agreement. We will live up to our manifesto, which is more than he will do.", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not have time. Keith Raffan will not have the choice that we will have, because he is tied into the agreement. We will live up to our manifesto, which is more than he will do.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C703780", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 456.0, "ContributionID": 703780, "EditedText": "Fiona Hyslop demonstrated the hypocrisy of Labour ministers on tuition fees. In doing that, she did this chamber a service. Interruption.", "EditedTextHTML": "Fiona Hyslop demonstrated the hypocrisy of Labour ministers on tuition fees. In doing that, she did this chamber a service. [Interruption.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C703784", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ross Finnie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 465.0, "ContributionID": 703784, "EditedText": "I regret to say that Andrew Wilson is wrong. Those three members did not all vote against the document because of tuition fees. There were other matters on which they expressed—Interruption. The point, as Mr Raffan made clear, is that they now accept the opinion of the majority of members and they retain—", "EditedTextHTML": "I regret to say that Andrew Wilson is wrong. Those three members did not all vote against the document because of tuition fees. There were other matters on which they expressed—[Interruption.] The point, as Mr Raffan made clear, is that they now accept the opinion of the majority of members and they retain—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703789", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 475.0, "ContributionID": 703789, "EditedText": "In that case, there will be a division. Members should vote yes to agree to the amendment, no to disagree with the amendment, or abstain to record an abstention. Please vote now.", "EditedTextHTML": "In that case, there will be a division. Members should vote yes to agree to the amendment, no to disagree with the amendment, or abstain to record an abstention. Please vote now.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703792", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 480.0, "ContributionID": 703792, "EditedText": "Amendment disagreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment disagreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703794", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 483.0, "ContributionID": 703794, "EditedText": "The question is, that the motion be agreed to. Are we all agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "The question is, that the motion be agreed to. Are we all agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703797", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 489.0, "ContributionID": 703797, "EditedText": "FOR Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)Mackay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)(LD)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)AGAINST Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)ABSTENTIONS Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Mackay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)
(LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)

AGAINST

Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)

ABSTENTIONS

Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703800", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 493.0, "ContributionID": 703800, "EditedText": "In accordance with section 49 of the Scotland Act 1998, the First Minister may, with the approval of Her Majesty, appoint junior Scottish ministers. Before doing so, he must have the agreement of Parliament. The Parliament has agreed with the First Minister's recommendations to appoint the following members as junior Scottish ministers: Angus Mackay, Peter Peacock, Rhona Brankin, Nicol Stephen, Alasdair Morrison, Iain Gray, Iain Smith, John Home Robertson, Frank Macavity— Laughter—and Jackie Baillie. I apologise, Mr McAveety.", "EditedTextHTML": "In accordance with section 49 of the Scotland Act 1998, the First Minister may, with the approval of Her Majesty, appoint junior Scottish ministers. Before doing so, he must have the agreement of Parliament. The Parliament has agreed with the First Minister's recommendations to appoint the following members as junior Scottish ministers: Angus Mackay, Peter Peacock, Rhona Brankin, Nicol Stephen, Alasdair Morrison, Iain Gray, Iain Smith, John Home Robertson, Frank Macavity— [Laughter]—and Jackie Baillie.

I apologise, Mr McAveety.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1996E124P211C703801", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAveety, Mr Frank", "ID": 1996, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Shettleston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Local Government", "SpeakerName": "Frank McAveety", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Frank McAveety (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 495.0, "ContributionID": 703801, "EditedText": "That is quite all right, Mr Stole.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is quite all right, Mr Stole.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C703806", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 505.0, "ContributionID": 703806, "EditedText": "Now that the Government team, including Mr Macavity, is in place, can I draw your attention to the fact that it is now 19 May and, from consultations with the chamber office, I understand that parliamentary questions will not be received for answer before 2 July, after which time the Parliament will go into recess? Therefore, we will not receive an answer to any deliberative parliamentary question until August. I think that that is simply unacceptable. Given the fact that the Government's spending plans published by the Labour Government eight weeks ago in \"Serving Scotland's Needs\" have been rendered entirely useless by 25 words written in the coalition document, surely, as the democratic legislature, the Parliament has the right to ask questions and to get answers.", "EditedTextHTML": "Now that the Government team, including Mr Macavity, is in place, can I draw your attention to the fact that it is now 19 May and, from consultations with the chamber office, I understand that parliamentary questions will not be received for answer before 2 July, after which time the Parliament will go into recess? Therefore, we will not receive an answer to any deliberative parliamentary question until August. I think that that is simply unacceptable. Given the fact that the Government's spending plans published by the Labour Government eight weeks ago in \"Serving Scotland's Needs\" have been rendered entirely useless by 25 words written in the coalition document, surely, as the democratic legislature, the Parliament has the right to ask questions and to get answers.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1820E139P227C703818", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26595, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 517.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 517.0, "ID": 26595, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Curran, Margaret", "ID": 1820, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Baillieston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Curran", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Margaret Curran (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 529.0, "ContributionID": 703818, "EditedText": "I am sorry, Mr Presiding Officer, but members in this area still cannot hear you properly. Interruption.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry, Mr Presiding Officer, but members in this area still cannot hear you properly. [Interruption.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703827", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26595, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 517.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 517.0, "ID": 26595, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 547.0, "ContributionID": 703827, "EditedText": "Meeting adjourned at 15:41.", "EditedTextHTML": "Meeting adjourned at 15:41.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703831", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26595, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 517.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 517.0, "ID": 26595, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 556.0, "ContributionID": 703831, "EditedText": "The voting time is up. Members who wish to vote for Des McNulty should vote yes now.", "EditedTextHTML": "The voting time is up. Members who wish to vote for Des McNulty should vote yes now.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703834", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26595, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 517.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 517.0, "ID": 26595, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 562.0, "ContributionID": 703834, "EditedText": "Members voted.", "EditedTextHTML": "Members voted.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703835", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26595, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 517.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 517.0, "ID": 26595, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 563.0, "ContributionID": 703835, "EditedText": "I am going to reduce the voting time to 20 seconds, otherwise we are wasting time. Members who wish to vote for Des McNulty should press the yes button now. I beg your pardon. We have not voted for Mr Andrew Welsh yet. Those who wish to vote for Mr Andrew Welsh should press the yes button now. Sorry—we have done that. We are now on the fourth election. Members who wish to vote for Mr John Young should do so now by pressing the yes button.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am going to reduce the voting time to 20 seconds, otherwise we are wasting time. Members who wish to vote for Des McNulty should press the yes button now.

I beg your pardon. We have not voted for Mr Andrew Welsh yet. Those who wish to vote for Mr Andrew Welsh should press the yes button now.

Sorry—we have done that. We are now on the fourth election.
Members who wish to vote for Mr John Young should do so now by pressing the yes button.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703849", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26595, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 517.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 517.0, "ID": 26595, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 595.0, "ContributionID": 703849, "EditedText": "The time for voting is up. Those who wish to vote for Mr John Young should press the yes button now.", "EditedTextHTML": "The time for voting is up. Those who wish to vote for Mr John Young should press the yes button now.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703850", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26595, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 517.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 517.0, "ID": 26595, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 597.0, "ContributionID": 703850, "EditedText": "Members voted.", "EditedTextHTML": "Members voted.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703852", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26595, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 517.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 517.0, "ID": 26595, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 603.0, "ContributionID": 703852, "EditedText": "Andrew Welsh 115John Young 0Abstentions 0VOTES FOR MR ANDREW WELSH Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)Mackay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)(LD)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)", "EditedTextHTML": "Andrew Welsh 115
John Young 0
Abstentions 0

VOTES FOR MR ANDREW WELSH

Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Mackay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)
(LD)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703860", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sitting Days", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26596, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 613.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 613.0, "ID": 26596, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 619.0, "ContributionID": 703860, "EditedText": "I agree that this motion without notice should be taken. The question is, That the motion in the name of Mr Tom McCabe should be taken now. Are we all agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "I agree that this motion without notice should be taken. The question is, That the motion in the name of Mr Tom McCabe should be taken now. Are we all agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C703865", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sitting Days", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26596, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 613.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 613.0, "ID": 26596, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Keith Raffan (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 630.0, "ContributionID": 703865, "EditedText": "I share Mr Wilson's concern about questions and the fact that we will probably not be able to get even written answers until the early autumn. If the Parliament rises on 2 July, that will certainly be the case and it will slow up proceedings a great deal. I would be grateful for guidance on when we will be able to lodge both written and oral questions. I would also like some further information. How far in advance does the Business Manager intend to let us know the Parliament's business? The earlier the better would be helpful. I do not know whether there is a plan to have a business question time such as that in the House of Commons—which I know is sometimes abused when members ask spurious questions—but it would be useful to have the kind of question time in which we would be able to put points regarding the business of the following week to the Business Manager, and for individual members to raise the concerns they feel should be debated. Could Mr McCabe also let us know the current situation with committees and the prospect of their being set up in the near future? Can he give us any guidance on what is happening regarding both statutory committees as set out in the consultative steering group report and subject committees? The subject committees can now be set up because we know who the ministers are and what they are responsible for.", "EditedTextHTML": "I share Mr Wilson's concern about questions and the fact that we will probably not be able to get even written answers until the early autumn. If the Parliament rises on 2 July, that will certainly be the case and it will slow up proceedings a great deal. I would be grateful for guidance on when we will be able to lodge both written and oral questions.

I would also like some further information. How far in advance does the Business Manager intend to let us know the Parliament's business?

The earlier the better would be helpful. I do not know whether there is a plan to have a business question time such as that in the House of Commons—which I know is sometimes abused when members ask spurious questions—but it would be useful to have the kind of question time in which we would be able to put points regarding the business of the following week to the Business Manager, and for individual members to raise the concerns they feel should be debated.

Could Mr McCabe also let us know the current situation with committees and the prospect of their being set up in the near future? Can he give us any guidance on what is happening regarding both statutory committees as set out in the consultative steering group report and subject committees? The subject committees can now be set up because we know who the ministers are and what they are responsible for.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2080E130P217C703870", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sitting Days", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26596, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 613.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 613.0, "ID": 26596, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lamont, Johann", "ID": 2080, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Pollok" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Johann Lamont", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Johann Lamont (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 644.0, "ContributionID": 703870, "EditedText": "It is for this body to decide how best to scrutinise ministers, when we meet and so on, but I would like to make a point about where the work is being done. I do not know what Dorothy-Grace Elder thinks she will be doing when she is not here. If I am not here, I fully intend to work on behalf of my constituents, the people whom I represent in Glasgow Pollok. With respect, it is old politics to think that sitting in this chamber talking to one another makes change. What will make change for Scotland is us working in our constituencies, representing the people there and, above all, listening to what they have to say about what we should be doing. We must get away from the idea that to prove that we are working hard for our constituents, we must sit in this chamber. That is part of our role, and holding people to account for what they do is an important part of the democratic process. However, it is as important to ensure that the people of Scotland can participate actively in that democratic process through the people whom they chose to elect to this body.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is for this body to decide how best to scrutinise ministers, when we meet and so on, but I would like to make a point about where the work is being done. I do not know what Dorothy-Grace Elder thinks she will be doing when she is not here. If I am not here, I fully intend to work on behalf of my constituents, the people whom I represent in Glasgow Pollok. With respect, it is old politics to think that sitting in this chamber talking to one another makes change. What will make change for Scotland is us working in our constituencies, representing the people there and, above all, listening to what they have to say about what we should be doing.

We must get away from the idea that to prove that we are working hard for our constituents, we must sit in this chamber. That is part of our role, and holding people to account for what they do is an important part of the democratic process. However, it is as important to ensure that the people of Scotland can participate actively in that democratic process through the people whom they chose to elect to this body.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2188E70P92C703872", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sitting Days", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26596, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 613.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 613.0, "ID": 26596, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harper, Robin", "ID": 2188, "PartyName": "Scottish Green Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Green", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robin Harper", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robin Harper (Lothians) (Green): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 650.0, "ContributionID": 703872, "EditedText": "There was an earlier reference to the fact that the previous debate was mainly about tuition fees. If I had not been pulled from the list of speakers in that debate, I would certainly have opened up the debate on the environment. I certainly would like the opportunity to question ministers on the issue of the environment before the summer recess. There are many questions. I accept that ministers may not be able to clarify many of the policies immediately, but it is only fair for us and the people of Scotland that we should be able to find out as much as possible before the summer recess.", "EditedTextHTML": "There was an earlier reference to the fact that the previous debate was mainly about tuition fees. If I had not been pulled from the list of speakers in that debate, I would certainly have opened up the debate on the environment. I certainly would like the opportunity to question ministers on the issue of the environment before the summer recess. There are many questions. I accept that ministers may not be able to clarify many of the policies immediately, but it is only fair for us and the people of Scotland that we should be able to find out as much as possible before the summer recess.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703885", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sitting Days", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26596, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 613.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 613.0, "ID": 26596, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 677.0, "ContributionID": 703885, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C703802", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fergus Ewing (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 497.0, "ContributionID": 703802, "EditedText": "On a point of order. Now that the ministerial team has been appointed, it would be churlish of us not to congratulate the ministers on their appointments and hope for the best in the future. I want to draw to the attention of the minister who has responsibility for fisheries, the welcome presence of—", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. Now that the ministerial team has been appointed, it would be churlish of us not to congratulate the ministers on their appointments and hope for the best in the future. I want to draw to the attention of the minister who has responsibility for fisheries, the welcome presence of—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:00:40.809978+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C703772", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 439.0, "ContributionID": 703772, "EditedText": "Amid the tremendously new- politics behaviour of Labour members, did Mr Neil notice that, when he asked whether Labour members could give a cast-iron guarantee to support the abolition of tuition fees if the report recommended it, there was silence?", "EditedTextHTML": "Amid the tremendously new- politics behaviour of Labour members, did Mr Neil notice that, when he asked whether Labour members could give a cast-iron guarantee to support the abolition of tuition fees if the report recommended it, there was silence?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:18:48.0221515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1848E217P504C703752", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sturgeon, Nicola", "ID": 1848, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Nicola Sturgeon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Nicola Sturgeon (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 393.0, "ContributionID": 703752, "EditedText": "I am sure that Mr Kerr would love to put tuition fees to one side, but I suspect that the Scottish people may have other ideas. We heard a great deal earlier today about cracks, or, in Mr Swinney's more colourful term, yawning chasms in the coalition between Labour and the Liberal Democrats. Keith Raffan has just fallen headlong into the yawning chasm. What we seem to have in the proposed appointment of Nicol Stephen as the Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning— perhaps that should be lifelong debt for Scotland's students—is an attempt to find some glue to hold the whole thing together. At least, that is the charitable view. The less charitable but I suspect more accurate view is that Nicol Stephen is being stitched up by his so-called new friends on the Labour benches, tied in to supporting a policy that he campaigned against in the election, and when the time comes, to supporting his boss over his own party colleagues. In supporting this amendment I urge Nicol Stephen to give serious consideration to voting for it because I suspect that in the months and years ahead he will look back and realise that it is in his own political interests to do so. I took part in a couple of debates with Nicol in Aberdeen during the election campaign. I heard him promise his constituents that he would abolish tuition fees. I believed him. I think his constituents believed him as well. So I urge him today to follow his conscience and not to follow the Labour party in imposing tuition fees on students in Scotland. It is not the interests of Nicol Stephen that are important in this Parliament, however; it is the interests of the Scottish people. In the foreword to the CSG report Henry McLeish said that the people in Scotland have high hopes for their Parliament. That is something we are all acutely aware of in the early days of the Parliament. We know that the decision that we take now will shape the Parliament for many years. That is why we, as members of the first Scottish Parliament, must be guided by the principles that guided the consultative steering group. That group envisaged an open, accessible Parliament in which power would be shared between the Parliament, the Executive and the Scottish people, with an Executive that would be accountable to the Parliament and a Parliament that would be accountable to the Scottish people. However, the first act of the present Executive was to go behind closed doors and cut a secret deal—a deal that seems to have been motivated more by the pursuit of power than by the priorities of the Scottish people. Many members this morning lamented the fact that we were challenging individual ministers rather than debating real issues. To those members I say that if this Parliament had been given the opportunity to debate, in detail, the contents of the partnership agreement, we could have had that constructive debate. We could have subjected its contents to scrutiny and assessed how it compared to the manifestos of the parties, or how it differed from the Liberal Democrat manifesto. We could have discussed how it attempts to frustrate the will of this Parliament, and by extension the will of the people of Scotland, on the subject of tuition fees. A two-thirds majority of this Parliament was elected on a promise to abolish tuition fees. The fact that Jim Wallace, who before the election declared the abolition of tuition fees to be nonnegotiable, is now prepared to barter that majority for a position of power—although if we are to believe Labour sources he has been duped as far as power is concerned—and the fact that Nicol Stephen is lining up behind Mr McLeish as deputy minister for tuition fees, should be unacceptable to this Parliament. I think that it will be unacceptable to the people of Scotland. If we are to build a Parliament that can fulfil the hopes of the Scottish people, we cannot have in the Executive people who have shown themselves so willing to play fast and loose with the democratically expressed wishes of the Scottish people. That is why I support the amendment.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sure that Mr Kerr would love to put tuition fees to one

side, but I suspect that the Scottish people may have other ideas. We heard a great deal earlier today about cracks, or, in Mr Swinney's more colourful term, yawning chasms in the coalition between Labour and the Liberal Democrats. Keith Raffan has just fallen headlong into the yawning chasm.

What we seem to have in the proposed appointment of Nicol Stephen as the Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning— perhaps that should be lifelong debt for Scotland's students—is an attempt to find some glue to hold the whole thing together. At least, that is the charitable view. The less charitable but I suspect more accurate view is that Nicol Stephen is being stitched up by his so-called new friends on the Labour benches, tied in to supporting a policy that he campaigned against in the election, and when the time comes, to supporting his boss over his own party colleagues. In supporting this amendment I urge Nicol Stephen to give serious consideration to voting for it because I suspect that in the months and years ahead he will look back and realise that it is in his own political interests to do so.

I took part in a couple of debates with Nicol in Aberdeen during the election campaign. I heard him promise his constituents that he would abolish tuition fees. I believed him. I think his constituents believed him as well. So I urge him today to follow his conscience and not to follow the Labour party in imposing tuition fees on students in Scotland.

It is not the interests of Nicol Stephen that are important in this Parliament, however; it is the interests of the Scottish people. In the foreword to the CSG report Henry McLeish said that the people in Scotland have high hopes for their Parliament. That is something we are all acutely aware of in the early days of the Parliament. We know that the decision that we take now will shape the Parliament for many years.

That is why we, as members of the first Scottish Parliament, must be guided by the principles that guided the consultative steering group. That group envisaged an open, accessible Parliament in which power would be shared between the Parliament, the Executive and the Scottish people, with an Executive that would be accountable to the Parliament and a Parliament that would be accountable to the Scottish people. However, the first act of the present Executive was to go behind closed doors and cut a secret deal—a deal that seems to have been motivated more by the pursuit of power than by the priorities of the Scottish people.

Many members this morning lamented the fact that we were challenging individual ministers rather than debating real issues. To those members I say that if this Parliament had been given the opportunity to debate, in detail, the contents of the partnership agreement, we could have had that constructive debate. We could have subjected its contents to scrutiny and assessed how it compared to the manifestos of the parties, or how it differed from the Liberal Democrat manifesto. We could have discussed how it attempts to frustrate the will of this Parliament, and by extension the will of the people of Scotland, on the subject of tuition fees.

A two-thirds majority of this Parliament was elected on a promise to abolish tuition fees. The fact that Jim Wallace, who before the election declared the abolition of tuition fees to be nonnegotiable, is now prepared to barter that majority for a position of power—although if we are to believe Labour sources he has been duped as far as power is concerned—and the fact that Nicol Stephen is lining up behind Mr McLeish as deputy minister for tuition fees, should be unacceptable to this Parliament. I think that it will be unacceptable to the people of Scotland.

If we are to build a Parliament that can fulfil the hopes of the Scottish people, we cannot have in the Executive people who have shown themselves so willing to play fast and loose with the democratically expressed wishes of the Scottish people. That is why I support the amendment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-29T02:00:39.6991441+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2180E179P471C703622", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lochhead, Richard", "ID": 2180, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Lochhead", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Richard Lochhead (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 119.0, "ContributionID": 703622, "EditedText": "Thank you, Mr Presiding Officer— Interruption.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you, Mr Presiding Officer— [Interruption.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:31.1569345+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2133E222P520C703658", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Matheson, Michael", "ID": 2133, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Matheson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Matheson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 199.0, "ContributionID": 703658, "EditedText": "I must point out to Dr Simpson that the majority of members were elected on a commitment to get the ban lifted. Mr Lyon—who has disappeared and has not remained for the debate—was one of the leading members of the National Farmers Union who campaigned against the Government's imposition of the ban. Let us consider how Mr Finnie, the new Minister for Rural Affairs, will operate and the areas that he will be responsible for. Issues relating to rural transport and the environment will be the responsibility of the Minister for Transport and the Environment, not Mr Finnie. The issues of Highlands and Islands Enterprise and Gaelic will be the responsibility of the Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning, not Mr Finnie. Mr Finnie will be left with agriculture, and we have already seen that he sold out on the farmers in regard to the beef-on-the-bone ban.", "EditedTextHTML": "I must point out to Dr Simpson that the majority of members were elected on a commitment to get the ban lifted. Mr Lyon—who has disappeared and has not remained for the debate—was one of the leading members of the National Farmers Union who campaigned against the Government's imposition of the ban.

Let us consider how Mr Finnie, the new Minister for Rural Affairs, will operate and the areas that he will be responsible for. Issues relating to rural transport and the environment will be the responsibility of the Minister for Transport and the Environment, not Mr Finnie. The issues of Highlands and Islands Enterprise and Gaelic will be the responsibility of the Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning, not Mr Finnie. Mr Finnie will be left with agriculture, and we have already seen that he sold out on the farmers in regard to the beef-on-the-bone ban.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:31.1569345+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2133E222P520C703656", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Matheson, Michael", "ID": 2133, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Matheson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Matheson (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 195.0, "ContributionID": 703656, "EditedText": "The people of Scotland elected the Scottish Parliament to reflect their needs and aspirations. As the elected members of this Parliament, we have the responsibility of ensuring that we have a Parliament that is open, accountable and, above all, democratic in its decision making. During the early days of this Parliament, and from the publication of the partnership document by Labour and the Liberal Democrats, it was clear that a sell-out was taking place for the sake of ministerial office rather than of reflecting the needs of the people of Scotland. A majority of members were elected on the basis of manifestos that committed them to abolishing student tuition fees and lifting the beef-on-the-bone ban. In February 1998, Charles Kennedy—that well- known Liberal Democrat face and the man who is now one of the front runners for the leadership of that party—led the Opposition debate in the House of Commons. He led the debate against the Government and its ban on beef on the bone. Now what do we see? We see Mr Finnie and his leadership colleagues doing a U-turn on the issue. They now tell us that they will wait until they receive the right medical evidence before making such a decision. Why did they not take the same medical evidence before they made it their party's policy to lift the ban? The words \"envelope\" and \"the back of it\" with regard to policy making come to mind. The Liberal Democrats have clearly failed to think through this process and have concerned themselves more with ministerial office. It is all very well for people such as Mr Finnie to sell out on their party policy, but selling out on the farmers who voted for the Liberal Democrats and on the people who live in rural communities that depend on farming is not just selling out on their party policy, it is a betrayal of the supporters who elected them to this chamber.", "EditedTextHTML": "The people of Scotland elected the Scottish Parliament to reflect their needs and aspirations. As the elected members of this Parliament, we have the responsibility of ensuring that we have a Parliament that is open, accountable and, above all, democratic in its decision making.

During the early days of this Parliament, and from the publication of the partnership document by Labour and the Liberal Democrats, it was clear that a sell-out was taking place for the sake of ministerial office rather than of reflecting the needs of the people of Scotland. A majority of members were elected on the basis of manifestos that committed them to abolishing student tuition fees and lifting the beef-on-the-bone ban.

In February 1998, Charles Kennedy—that well- known Liberal Democrat face and the man who is now one of the front runners for the leadership of that party—led the Opposition debate in the House of Commons. He led the debate against the Government and its ban on beef on the bone. Now what do we see? We see Mr Finnie and his leadership colleagues doing a U-turn on the issue. They now tell us that they will wait until they receive the right medical evidence before making such a decision. Why did they not take the same medical evidence before they made it their party's policy to lift the ban? The words \"envelope\" and \"the back of it\" with regard to policy making come to mind. The Liberal Democrats have clearly failed to think through this process and have concerned themselves more with ministerial office.

It is all very well for people such as Mr Finnie to sell out on their party policy, but selling out on the farmers who voted for the Liberal Democrats and on the people who live in rural communities that depend on farming is not just selling out on their party policy, it is a betrayal of the supporters who elected them to this chamber.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:31.1569345+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2133E222P520C703660", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Matheson, Michael", "ID": 2133, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Matheson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Matheson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 203.0, "ContributionID": 703660, "EditedText": "I am winding up.We have also seen recently how Westminster has ignored this chamber. Mr Finnie will be left with forestry. I am sure that that is high on the agenda of the people of Inverclyde, but it is hardly justification for the creation of such a senior ministerial portfolio—it smacks more of creating a portfolio to keep the Liberal Democrats on side. I have two key reasons for opposing Mr Finnie's appointment—", "EditedTextHTML": "I am winding up.

We have also seen recently how Westminster has ignored this chamber.

Mr Finnie will be left with forestry. I am sure that that is high on the agenda of the people of Inverclyde, but it is hardly justification for the creation of such a senior ministerial portfolio—it smacks more of creating a portfolio to keep the Liberal Democrats on side. I have two key reasons for opposing Mr Finnie's appointment—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:31.1569345+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2133E222P520C703767", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Matheson, Michael", "ID": 2133, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Matheson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Matheson (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 428.0, "ContributionID": 703767, "EditedText": "Will Dr Simpson give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "

Will Dr Simpson give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:31.1569345+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1773E197P503C703757", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hyslop, Fiona", "ID": 1773, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fiona Hyslop", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fiona Hyslop (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 406.0, "ContributionID": 703757, "EditedText": "I got the impression from this morning's debate that some members of the Labour party were questioning the right to challenge the list, and that this debate should somehow be a formality. The demand for Nicol Stephen's removal from the list presented to us today is certainly not made in a mean-spirited manner. In this new democracy we have a duty and a responsibility to challenge anything that calls into question the democratic will of the Scottish people who, quite clearly, are against tuition fees. This debate is about the content of the \"Partnership for Scotland\" document. Rather than being for Scotland, it is a partnership for two political parties that are hungry for power. It is a partnership against students and free education and for Labour's privatisation agenda, and which has cost implications that must be challenged in debate. We need more resources for education, but since the Liberal Democrats abandoned the notion of tax-varying powers in their deal, they had better ensure that education spending is not paid for by health and housing cuts and the things that the previous speaker mentioned. Yesterday, there was a request for proportional prayers—a concept which I think is inappropriate, but of which I could see the logic. There is, however, something that you cannot have proportionally, and that is principle. Principle is measured in absolute terms, and on tuition fees, the Liberal Democrats do not have it. The issue of tuition fees was a touchstone in the Scottish elections because education matters to the people of Scotland. Anyone who has studied the evolution of education in Scotland will know that it is the principle of free education that we uphold. That is why, although the Tories have seen sense on this issue, their attack is blunted. They started the cuts in grants and maintenance that are continued under new Labour. It is important that we remember that free education is not just about tuition fees; it is also about grants and about maintenance. Up to 12 per cent fewer mature students are applying for university places—that is not a very good advert for lifelong learning, Mr Stephen. This Parliament should be about building trust, so that our young people believe that the democratic process can work for them. Mr Stephen's appointment is an action that would destroy that trust. How can we persuade young people to engage in the political process and to come out and vote when, the Scottish people having given the Parliament a clear mandate to scrap tuition fees, as soon as it sits, it turns its back on them? If we want young people to engage in political and democratic processes, they must be treated with respect. I warn Jim Wallace not to hide behind the coat tails of the National Union of Students. Its president may not be completely impartial, having campaigned less than a fortnight ago for a minister who was approved today—Sarah Boyack. As a student leader she led me and many others at the University of Glasgow in campaigns against cuts in student grants. The Labour front bench is awash with former student leaders, who should know about student poverty, including Jack McConnell and Susan Deacon. I understand that Susan used to campaign for fair grants and against any loan schemes. It is interesting how times change. If a week is a long time in politics, we have seen a century and a chasm in thinking from Labour since it became new and high office prevailed. A final criticism is that the architecture of these appointments is more reflective of selfish party power dealings than the interests of democracy. The Scottish people had hoped for the creative use of Government departments and that joined- up thinking would be reflected in department structures. The split of higher education from the education brief is not to serve innovative Government, it is to serve and accommodate power-broking deals.Yesterday we saw a portent of things to come when Labour tried to bury the prayers debate in a review by a sub-committee. How much more will Labour try to bury away? Labour wants to bury debate and decision making in this Parliament and the Liberal Democrats have given them the shovel.", "EditedTextHTML": "I got the impression from this morning's debate that some members of the Labour party were questioning the right to challenge the list, and that this debate should somehow be a formality. The demand for Nicol Stephen's removal from the list presented to us today is certainly not made in a mean-spirited manner. In this new democracy we have a duty and a responsibility to challenge anything that calls into question the democratic will of the Scottish people who, quite clearly, are against tuition fees.

This debate is about the content of the \"Partnership for Scotland\" document. Rather than being for Scotland, it is a partnership for two political parties that are hungry for power. It is a partnership against students and free education and for Labour's privatisation agenda, and which has cost implications that must be challenged in debate. We need more resources for education, but since the Liberal Democrats abandoned the notion of tax-varying powers in their deal, they had better ensure that education spending is not paid for by health and housing cuts and the things that the previous speaker mentioned.

Yesterday, there was a request for proportional prayers—a concept which I think is inappropriate, but of which I could see the logic. There is, however, something that you cannot have proportionally, and that is principle. Principle is measured in absolute terms, and on tuition fees, the Liberal Democrats do not have it.

The issue of tuition fees was a touchstone in the Scottish elections because education matters to the people of Scotland. Anyone who has studied the evolution of education in Scotland will know that it is the principle of free education that we uphold. That is why, although the Tories have seen sense on this issue, their attack is blunted. They started the cuts in grants and maintenance that are continued under new Labour. It is important that we remember that free education is not just about tuition fees; it is also about grants and about maintenance. Up to 12 per cent fewer mature students are applying for university places—that is not a very good advert for lifelong learning, Mr Stephen.

This Parliament should be about building trust, so that our young people believe that the democratic process can work for them. Mr Stephen's appointment is an action that would destroy that trust. How can we persuade young people to engage in the political process and to come out and vote when, the Scottish people having given the Parliament a clear mandate to scrap tuition fees, as soon as it sits, it turns its back on them? If we want young people to engage in political and democratic processes, they must be treated with respect.

I warn Jim Wallace not to hide behind the coat tails of the National Union of Students. Its president may not be completely impartial, having campaigned less than a fortnight ago for a minister who was approved today—Sarah Boyack. As a student leader she led me and many others at the University of Glasgow in campaigns against cuts in student grants. The Labour front bench is awash with former student leaders, who should know about student poverty, including Jack McConnell and Susan Deacon. I understand that Susan used to campaign for fair grants and against any loan schemes. It is interesting how times change.

If a week is a long time in politics, we have seen a century and a chasm in thinking from Labour since it became new and high office prevailed.

A final criticism is that the architecture of these appointments is more reflective of selfish party power dealings than the interests of democracy. The Scottish people had hoped for the creative use of Government departments and that joined- up thinking would be reflected in department structures. The split of higher education from the education brief is not to serve innovative Government, it is to serve and accommodate

power-broking deals.

Yesterday we saw a portent of things to come when Labour tried to bury the prayers debate in a review by a sub-committee. How much more will Labour try to bury away? Labour wants to bury debate and decision making in this Parliament and the Liberal Democrats have given them the shovel.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-22T02:01:00.1970678+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703570", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Wednesday 19 May 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26592, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26592, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 7.0, "ContributionID": 703570, "EditedText": "I took that into account, but decided that there had to be a limit to the number of amendments that I could accept if we were to have rational debate. I took the amendments that were broader in scope; in other words, those that included two names. You can, Mr Russell, distinguish in the debate between Nicol Stephen and Iain Smith, but I am afraid that as far as the vote is concerned, Mr Smith will have to suffer guilt by association. In accordance with section 47 of the Scotland Act 1998, the First Minister may, with the approval of Her Majesty, appoint ministers, but before doing so he must have the agreement of Parliament. I call the First Minister, Mr Dewar.", "EditedTextHTML": "I took that into account, but decided that there had to be a limit to the number of amendments that I could accept if we were to have rational debate. I took the amendments that were broader in scope; in other words, those that included two names. You can, Mr Russell, distinguish in the debate between Nicol Stephen and Iain Smith, but I am afraid that as far as the vote is concerned, Mr Smith will have to suffer guilt by association.

In accordance with section 47 of the Scotland Act 1998, the First Minister may, with the approval of Her Majesty, appoint ministers, but before doing so he must have the agreement of Parliament. I call the First Minister, Mr Dewar.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C703573", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 15.0, "ContributionID": 703573, "EditedText": "Phil Gallie is a great expert in missing. His point gives me a terrible and horrible feeling of déjà vu—I suppose that I will overcome that in time. As far as I am concerned, the figures speak for themselves. It is a fair and good spread. The people in my team were picked on merit—I ought to make that very clear. It is not a pedantic matter of geographical balance, but the outcome is a happy one. In this afternoon's debate, we will no doubt return to the size of the junior ministerial team. We have been accused of extravagance and of the constitutional equivalent of loose living. It is the first time in a long time that I have been accused of loose living and I am quite flattered. I have to disown the compliment. I also like the fact that The Scotsman yesterday accused us of having put in place a series of faction captains. I do not know who I would put in that category. Rather quaintly, it went on to say that too much attention had been paid to the \"dishonourable tradition of rewarding loyalty\".That is an interesting insight into how the editor of The Scotsman picks his team. I can think of a few people in that team whose presence is explained by that, but I should not pursue that line too far, or I will make enemies where, of course, I have friends. The outstanding feature of the Administration is that it is a partnership Administration and a coalition Administration. That fact has produced heavy attacks from some predictable quarters. The huddle of amendments that we are discussing today is the end product of those attacks. There has been an attack on the basis of the coalition and on the circumstances of the case, but—perhaps more surprisingly and more fundamentally—there has been root-and-branch opposition to the principle of coalition. Inevitably, I have to take the arguments in a short space of time. I will deal with the basis of the coalition and with the circumstances of the case. A great deal of the fire has been directed at the question of tuition fees. The issue is surrounded by controversy, and I concede that there is considerable opposition to the current policy. My colleagues in the Liberal Democrat party have made it very clear that they stand where they did, but we have all agreed that there ought to be a proper inquiry before there is action, and that there ought to be a proper investigation of all aspects of higher and further education funding in Scotland. That seems to be a matter almost of common sense. It is known by the Parliament that we have had a massive range of representations from higher education, saying that we should not snatch at the matter and that we should not just rush to abolish tuition fees, but that we should try to get right something that is a very complicated issue. That view has been put to us by the Association of University Teachers (Scotland), by the Committee of Scottish Higher Education Principals and by the National Union of Students. I ought to say that the NUS has made it clear that it wants the abolition of tuition fees, but it still argues that there should be a full inquiry first so that we get it right. Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP)rose—", "EditedTextHTML": "Phil Gallie is a great expert in missing. His point gives me a terrible and horrible feeling of déjà vu—I suppose that I will overcome that in time. As far as I am concerned, the figures speak for themselves. It is a fair and good spread. The people in my team were picked on merit—I ought to make that very clear. It is not a pedantic matter of geographical balance, but the outcome is a happy one.

In this afternoon's debate, we will no doubt return to the size of the junior ministerial team. We have been accused of extravagance and of the constitutional equivalent of loose living. It is the first time in a long time that I have been accused of loose living and I am quite flattered. I have to disown the compliment.

I also like the fact that The Scotsman yesterday accused us of having put in place a series of faction captains. I do not know who I would put in that category. Rather quaintly, it went on to say that too much attention had been paid to the

\"dishonourable tradition of rewarding loyalty\".

That is an interesting insight into how the editor of The Scotsman picks his team. I can think of a few people in that team whose presence is explained by that, but I should not pursue that line too far, or I will make enemies where, of course, I have friends.

The outstanding feature of the Administration is that it is a partnership Administration and a coalition Administration. That fact has produced heavy attacks from some predictable quarters. The huddle of amendments that we are discussing today is the end product of those attacks.

There has been an attack on the basis of the coalition and on the circumstances of the case, but—perhaps more surprisingly and more fundamentally—there has been root-and-branch opposition to the principle of coalition.

Inevitably, I have to take the arguments in a short space of time. I will deal with the basis of the coalition and with the circumstances of the case. A great deal of the fire has been directed at the question of tuition fees. The issue is surrounded by controversy, and I concede that there is considerable opposition to the current policy. My colleagues in the Liberal Democrat party have made it very clear that they stand where they did, but we have all agreed that there ought to be a proper inquiry before there is action, and that there ought to be a proper investigation of all aspects of higher and further education funding in Scotland. That seems to be a matter almost of common sense. It is known by the Parliament that we have had a massive range of representations from higher education, saying that we should not snatch at the matter and that we should not just rush to abolish tuition fees, but that we should try to get right something that is a very complicated issue.

That view has been put to us by the Association of University Teachers (Scotland), by the Committee of Scottish Higher Education Principals and by the National Union of Students. I ought to say that the NUS has made it clear that it wants the abolition of tuition fees, but it still argues that there should be a full inquiry first so that we get it right.

Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP)

rose—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C703577", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 23.0, "ContributionID": 703577, "EditedText": "I am genuinely conscious of the time. One of the problems—", "EditedTextHTML": "I am genuinely conscious of the time. One of the problems—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C703578", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 25.0, "ContributionID": 703578, "EditedText": "That would be a bad practice.", "EditedTextHTML": "That would be a bad practice.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C703586", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 41.0, "ContributionID": 703586, "EditedText": "Is there a free vote?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is there a free vote?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C703589", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 47.0, "ContributionID": 703589, "EditedText": "I am not giving way. I trust that people will not rise in their place and shout at members—not even nationalists.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am not giving way. I trust that people will not rise in their place and shout at members—not even nationalists.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703595", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 57.0, "ContributionID": 703595, "EditedText": "Both amendments are open to debate. I shall call Mr McLetchie first, with a time limit of six minutes, followed by Mr Swinney, with a time limit of six minutes. I shall then open the debate with time limits of four minutes for each member. At the end, I shall invite someone who supported each of the amendments to respond for two minutes. The debate will be wound up by Mr Jim Wallace, speaking in favour of the motion, with a limit of six minutes.", "EditedTextHTML": "Both amendments are open to debate. I shall call Mr McLetchie first, with a time limit of six minutes, followed by Mr Swinney, with a time limit of six minutes. I shall then open the debate with time limits of four minutes for each member. At the end, I shall invite someone who supported each of the amendments to respond for two minutes. The debate will be

wound up by Mr Jim Wallace, speaking in favour of the motion, with a limit of six minutes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C703596", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie (Lothians) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 60.0, "ContributionID": 703596, "EditedText": "The Scottish Conservatives oppose the appointment of Mr Jim Wallace and Mr Ross Finnie as Scottish ministers because they are here under false pretences. They were elected on a manifesto that committed them to abolish tuition fees, end charges for eye and dental checks, lift the beef-onthe- bone ban, scrap tolls on the Skye bridge and stop the use of the private finance initiative in funding public projects. None of those commitments appears in the coalition agreement, which is surprising when one considers that Mr Wallace has said of himself: \"In negotiating with anyone, I have a pretty strong resolve to get what I want.\" Oh, really? Well, he could have fooled me. As we all know, promises made by Mr Wallace are just election rhetoric. It is a great pity that he did not tell that to the electorate, or to some of his hoodwinked back benchers, before 6 May. Some Liberal Democrat back benchers seem to think that if one puts a policy before the electorate in one's party manifesto, and claims on national television two days before voting that it is nonnegotiable, one should not ditch that policy after the election for the sake of a vestige of power. Those back benchers are right. They are the honourable members in the Liberal Democrat party. It is a pity that they belong to a dishonourable party. The Liberal Democrats have been exposed for what they are: totally unprincipled and happy to whelp as Labour's lapdogs. Jim Wallace may have claimed during the election campaign that he would not trade principles for a ministerial Mondeo, but an Omega and a deputy's badge have obviously done the trick. The Liberal Democrats seem to think that they will get a free vote on tuition fees after the independent commission has reported. The fact of the matter is, as we all know, that they will be bound and whipped by the final decision of the Cabinet, which has a majority of Labour members who are wholly opposed to abolition. The Liberal Democrats have been taken for a ride by Labour. Either one accepts the principle of free higher education for students and young people or one does not. There is no need for an independent commission to adjudicate on that, so it is a pointless exercise.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Scottish Conservatives oppose the appointment of Mr Jim Wallace and Mr Ross Finnie as Scottish ministers because they are here under false pretences.

They were elected on a manifesto that committed them to abolish tuition fees, end charges for eye and dental checks, lift the beef-onthe- bone ban, scrap tolls on the Skye bridge and stop the use of the private finance initiative in funding public projects.

None of those commitments appears in the coalition agreement, which is surprising when one considers that Mr Wallace has said of himself:

\"In negotiating with anyone, I have a pretty strong resolve to get what I want.\"

Oh, really? Well, he could have fooled me. As we all know, promises made by Mr Wallace are just election rhetoric. It is a great pity that he did not tell that to the electorate, or to some of his hoodwinked back benchers, before 6 May.

Some Liberal Democrat back benchers seem to think that if one puts a policy before the electorate in one's party manifesto, and claims on national television two days before voting that it is nonnegotiable, one should not ditch that policy after the election for the sake of a vestige of power. Those back benchers are right. They are the honourable members in the Liberal Democrat party. It is a pity that they belong to a dishonourable party.

The Liberal Democrats have been exposed for what they are: totally unprincipled and happy to whelp as Labour's lapdogs. Jim Wallace may have claimed during the election campaign that he would not trade principles for a ministerial Mondeo, but an Omega and a deputy's badge have obviously done the trick.

The Liberal Democrats seem to think that they will get a free vote on tuition fees after the independent commission has reported. The fact of the matter is, as we all know, that they will be bound and whipped by the final decision of the Cabinet, which has a majority of Labour members who are wholly opposed to abolition.

The Liberal Democrats have been taken for a ride by Labour. Either one accepts the principle of free higher education for students and young people or one does not. There is no need for an independent commission to adjudicate on that, so it is a pointless exercise.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2029E47P167C703600", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Henry, Hugh", "ID": 2029, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Hugh Henry", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Hugh Henry (Paisley South) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 69.0, "ContributionID": 703600, "EditedText": "Mr Swinney says that the people of Scotland voted overwhelmingly for the abolition of tuition fees and that that was what they were voting for when they voted for the SNP. Will he now accept that, in voting for the SNP, people were voting only for the abolition of tuition fees and not for independence?", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Swinney says that the people of Scotland voted overwhelmingly for the abolition of tuition fees and that that was what they were voting for when they voted for the SNP. Will he now accept that, in voting for the SNP, people were voting only for the abolition of tuition fees and not for independence?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C703605", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 80.0, "ContributionID": 703605, "EditedText": "Once he has done all that, and once he has considered the matter, will he have a free vote on the outcome of the inquiry?", "EditedTextHTML": "Once he has done all that, and once he has considered the matter, will he have a free vote on the outcome of the inquiry?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703607", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 84.0, "ContributionID": 703607, "EditedText": "Order. Mr Lyon, as you are near the end of your four minutes, please come to a conclusion.", "EditedTextHTML": "Order. Mr Lyon, as you are near the end of your four minutes, please come to a conclusion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C703608", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 86.0, "ContributionID": 703608, "EditedText": "To sum up, the \"Partnership for Scotland\" document delivers. It delivers £51 million extra on education and £29 million extra to help the poorest students. It delivers by creating a new Minister for Rural Affairs, who will deliver for rural Scotland. It delivers for much of the agricultural community by setting up an independent arbitration system to ensure that farmers are treated fairly in EU decisions. It delivers by setting up a new body to promote Scottish food; we supported that very clearly. It delivers on beef on the bone—Laughter. The commitment is in black and white; what Government would override scientific advice? Science has to be taken into account; if science says no, we have to wait, but the commitment on beef on the bone exists. I support the partnership document. I believe that it will give Scotland a stable Government and that the situation with tuition fees will be resolved through the committee of inquiry. It is only right that we consult all interested parties on the subject.", "EditedTextHTML": "To sum up, the \"Partnership for Scotland\" document delivers. It delivers £51 million extra on education and £29 million extra to help the poorest students. It delivers by creating a new Minister for Rural Affairs, who will deliver for rural Scotland. It delivers for much of the agricultural community by setting up an independent arbitration system to ensure that farmers are treated fairly in EU decisions. It delivers by setting up a new body to promote Scottish food; we supported that very clearly. It delivers on beef on the bone—[Laughter.] The commitment is in black and white; what Government would override scientific advice? Science has to be taken into account; if science says no, we have to wait, but the commitment on beef on the bone exists.

I support the partnership document. I believe that it will give Scotland a stable Government and that the situation with tuition fees will be resolved through the committee of inquiry. It is only right that we consult all interested parties on the subject.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703611", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 94.0, "ContributionID": 703611, "EditedText": "Would you draw your comments to a close? You have had your time.", "EditedTextHTML": "Would you draw your comments to a close? You have had your time.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703613", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 98.0, "ContributionID": 703613, "EditedText": "I would like to explain to members that the bureau has ordered digital clocks to be installed around the hall so that I do not have to interrupt people when their time is up. In the meantime, there is no alternative.", "EditedTextHTML": "I would like to explain to members that the bureau has ordered digital clocks to be installed around the hall so that I do not have to interrupt people when their time is up. In the meantime, there is no alternative.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2142E142P230C703619", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Watson, Mike", "ID": 2142, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Cathcart" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Watson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mike Watson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 112.0, "ContributionID": 703619, "EditedText": "It is not the purpose of the debate that I should answer such questions. The purpose of the debate is to put forward and ratify the Cabinet that has emerged from the discussions. As far as I am concerned, both political parties are satisfied with the outcome, and that is what this form of Parliament was always going to be about. It was absolutely predictable. One of the basic mistakes made by those who fail to grasp the new political situation is that they suggest that the Labour party should have gone into government on its own, and should have walked that perpetual tightrope on every political issue. I suppose that we should be flattered by that. However, such a Government would always have been in danger of being knocked off at any point, perhaps without notice, and I do not think that that is what the people of Scotland voted for on 6 May. They voted for a system which meant that, if a party did not get an overall majority, it had to enter into some form of agreement. Nor do I think that the manifesto commitments of all the parties were held to be indivisible, as there is no way that political parties, having stood against one another during an election, could enter into any form of coalition without each side giving something away in negotiations, and that is clearly the case for this coalition.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is not the purpose of the debate that I should answer such questions. The purpose of the debate is to put forward and ratify the Cabinet that has emerged from the discussions. As far as I am concerned, both political parties are satisfied with the outcome, and that is what this form of Parliament was always going to be about. It was absolutely predictable.

One of the basic mistakes made by those who fail to grasp the new political situation is that they suggest that the Labour party should have gone into government on its own, and should have walked that perpetual tightrope on every political issue. I suppose that we should be flattered by that. However, such a Government would always have been in danger of being knocked off at any point, perhaps without notice, and I do not think that that is what the people of Scotland voted for on 6 May. They voted for a system which meant that, if a party did not get an overall majority, it had to enter into some form of agreement. Nor do I think that the manifesto commitments of all the parties were held to be indivisible, as there is no way that political parties, having stood against one another during an election, could enter into any form of coalition without each side giving something away in negotiations, and that is clearly the case for this coalition.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C703620", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 114.0, "ContributionID": 703620, "EditedText": "Mr Watson talks about the new political climate. I put it to him that perhaps the electorate of Scotland made their judgment on the basis that there would be no overall majority party, and that the Parliament would take each issue on its merits. That is what the people of Scotland wanted and, by entering into a shady deal, the Labour party and the Liberal Democrats have cheated the people of Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Watson talks about the new political climate. I put it to him that perhaps the electorate of Scotland made their judgment on the basis that there would be no overall majority party, and that the Parliament would take each issue on its merits. That is what the people of Scotland wanted and, by entering into a shady deal, the Labour party and the Liberal Democrats have cheated the people of Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2142E142P230C703621", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Watson, Mike", "ID": 2142, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Cathcart" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Watson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mike Watson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 116.0, "ContributionID": 703621, "EditedText": "That is nonsense—it might not come as a surprise that I have said that to Mr Gallie before. The people of Scotland, who are watching both this debate and the way in which the Parliament develops, want stable government for Scotland. They do not want the political knockabout of a student debating society, which, day on day, week on week, would be balanced on a knife edge. That might make good television and good reporting for our colleagues in the press gallery, but it is not what the people of Scotland voted for.The negotiations that have produced the Cabinet whose members are here today is liable to produce stable government for Scotland. That does not mean that it will last for four years. I hope personally that it will, but it might not. The issue of tuition fees has been raised to a ridiculous level of importance and, although I accept that it is an important issue, it is not the most important issue to Scotland as a whole. Tuition fees do not mean much to young, unemployed people, or to a single parent living in a damp house. If agreement is reached today to endorse this Cabinet, as I am sure it will, those issues can be dealt with and resolved. We can bring a Government to Scotland that is much more responsive than has been the case in the past. That is what the Labour-Liberal Democrat agreement is about, and this is the Cabinet that it has produced. I invite members to endorse the Cabinet.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is nonsense—it might not come as a surprise that I have said that to Mr Gallie before.

The people of Scotland, who are watching both this debate and the way in which the Parliament develops, want stable government for Scotland. They do not want the political knockabout of a student debating society, which, day on day, week on week, would be balanced on a knife edge. That might make good television and good reporting for our colleagues in the press gallery, but it is not

what the people of Scotland voted for.

The negotiations that have produced the Cabinet whose members are here today is liable to produce stable government for Scotland. That does not mean that it will last for four years. I hope personally that it will, but it might not. The issue of tuition fees has been raised to a ridiculous level of importance and, although I accept that it is an important issue, it is not the most important issue to Scotland as a whole. Tuition fees do not mean much to young, unemployed people, or to a single parent living in a damp house. If agreement is reached today to endorse this Cabinet, as I am sure it will, those issues can be dealt with and resolved. We can bring a Government to Scotland that is much more responsive than has been the case in the past.

That is what the Labour-Liberal Democrat agreement is about, and this is the Cabinet that it has produced. I invite members to endorse the Cabinet.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1926E190P479C703630", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Adam, Brian", "ID": 1926, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Adam", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Brian Adam: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 136.0, "ContributionID": 703630, "EditedText": "Will Trish Godman give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Trish Godman give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C703632", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 141.0, "ContributionID": 703632, "EditedText": "I question Ross Finnie's commitment to, and empathy for, rural affairs, given his support for increasing the fuel escalator above the level imposed by his new party leader. Higher fuel costs are having a serious effect on the transportation of goods, which affects businesses, tourists and people who live and work in the Highlands and Islands. If the Administration's view is that rural affairs should be viewed solely as an accounting exercise, it is sadly out of touch with the needs and concerns of Scotland's rural communities. Why was the well-respected highlander, John Farquhar Munro, who has many years' experience on Highland Council and as chairman of its roads and transport committee, not considered for the post of Minister for Rural Affairs? Having been a lecturer in further and higher education for the past 25 years, I am well aware of the demands that are made on our students and of the highly damaging effect of the imposition of tuition fees. I say to Mike Watson that the students of Scotland need no lessons on who is affected by tuition fees; single parents and the young unemployed are the ones who would benefit most from their abolition.", "EditedTextHTML": "I question Ross Finnie's commitment to, and empathy for, rural affairs, given his support for increasing the fuel escalator above the level imposed by his new party leader. Higher fuel costs are having a serious effect on the transportation of goods, which affects businesses, tourists and people who live and work in the Highlands and Islands. If the Administration's view is that rural affairs should be viewed solely as an accounting exercise, it is sadly out of touch with the needs and concerns of Scotland's rural communities.

Why was the well-respected highlander, John Farquhar Munro, who has many years' experience on Highland Council and as chairman of its roads and transport committee, not considered for the post of Minister for Rural Affairs?

Having been a lecturer in further and higher education for the past 25 years, I am well aware of the demands that are made on our students and of the highly damaging effect of the imposition of tuition fees. I say to Mike Watson that the students of Scotland need no lessons on who is affected by tuition fees; single parents and the young unemployed are the ones who would benefit most from their abolition.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C703636", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 149.0, "ContributionID": 703636, "EditedText": "No, I have almost finished. Will the Liberal Democrats apologise to the voters in Scotland for promises made before 6 May being promises betrayed on 14 May?", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I have almost finished. Will the Liberal Democrats apologise to the voters in Scotland for promises made before 6 May being promises betrayed on 14 May?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1990E181P340C703639", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robson, Euan", "ID": 1990, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Roxburgh and Berwickshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Euan Robson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Euan Robson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 156.0, "ContributionID": 703639, "EditedText": "As we have won the seats, I think we have a mandate. Earlier, I tried to make a point about the fishing dispute. That matter arose before the formation of the partnership Government. It is of considerable importance, and I hope that we can have an early debate on it. What happened impinges on the rights of this Parliament—it should not have been dealt with as it was. The consultation on the issue was lamentable.", "EditedTextHTML": "As we have won the seats, I think we have a mandate.

Earlier, I tried to make a point about the fishing dispute. That matter arose before the formation of the partnership Government. It is of considerable importance, and I hope that we can have an early debate on it. What happened impinges on the rights of this Parliament—it should not have been dealt with as it was. The consultation on the issue was lamentable.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1990E181P340C703641", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robson, Euan", "ID": 1990, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Roxburgh and Berwickshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Euan Robson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Euan Robson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 160.0, "ContributionID": 703641, "EditedText": "I have finished.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have finished.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1985E207P501C703642", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hamilton, Mr Duncan", "ID": 1985, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Duncan Hamilton (Highlands and Islands) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 163.0, "ContributionID": 703642, "EditedText": "I support the amendment that opposes the appointment of Mr Jim Wallace. I do so with some regret: such opposition was not my understanding of the new style of politics, but neither was it my understanding of the new politics that coalition meant takeover. Sadly, that is where we are at. The First Minister started this debate by talking about how the Scottish National party was against the whole concept and principle of coalition government. Nothing could be further from the truth. What we are against is the misuse of coalition by the Labour party, which simply assumes that its manifesto can be imposed on the Parliament, on the country, and certainly on the minority party in the arrangement. Let us separate the principle of coalition government from the rather tawdry practice of it that we are seeing here today. I cannot be the only member who spent the election campaign listening to a Liberal Democrat opponent—in my case the aptly named Mr Lyon— who told everyone about his party's immutable and unalterable commitment to the principle of free education. That principle was important for people in rural areas, where we had to give people access to education to give them a chance to improve their lives. It was a principle that would garner support across the Parliament. Then, all of a sudden, the principle changed. It did not change for any rational reason, and it did not change after an inquiry; it changed purely because a few members of the Liberal party fancied getting themselves into the Cabinet. George now says that, after an inquiry, he will give us an answer as to whether he will have a free vote or opinion. George did not need an inquiry before 6 May. I am not sure what has changed. Perhaps he can tell me.", "EditedTextHTML": "I support the amendment that opposes the appointment of Mr Jim Wallace. I do so with some regret: such opposition was not my understanding of the new style of politics, but neither was it my understanding of the new politics that coalition meant takeover. Sadly, that is where we are at.

The First Minister started this debate by talking about how the Scottish National party was against the whole concept and principle of coalition government. Nothing could be further from the truth. What we are against is the misuse of coalition by the Labour party, which simply assumes that its manifesto can be imposed on the Parliament, on the country, and certainly on the minority party in the arrangement. Let us separate the principle of coalition government from the rather tawdry practice of it that we are seeing here today.

I cannot be the only member who spent the election campaign listening to a Liberal Democrat opponent—in my case the aptly named Mr Lyon— who told everyone about his party's immutable and unalterable commitment to the principle of free education. That principle was important for people in rural areas, where we had to give people access to education to give them a chance to improve their lives. It was a principle that would garner support across the Parliament. Then, all of a sudden, the principle changed. It did not change for any rational reason, and it did not change after an inquiry; it changed purely because a few members of the Liberal party fancied getting themselves into the Cabinet. George now says that, after an inquiry, he will give us an answer as to whether he will have a free vote or opinion. George did not need an inquiry before 6 May. I am not sure what has changed. Perhaps he can tell me.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C703643", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 165.0, "ContributionID": 703643, "EditedText": "Does that mean that if the inquiry does not recommend the abolition of tuition fees Duncan will vote against its findings?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does that mean that if the inquiry does not recommend the abolition of tuition fees Duncan will vote against its findings?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2108E50P256C703645", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macintosh, Ken", "ID": 2108, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Eastwood" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ken Macintosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Kenneth Macintosh (Eastwood) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 170.0, "ContributionID": 703645, "EditedText": "I support the election of the Executive that has been proposed by the First Minister because I want stability in the Government. That is a view that I think is shared by the Scottish people. At the start of this new Parliament, the best way to ensure stability and consistency in government is to look at what unites the parties in this chamber, not at what divides them. Scottish Labour and the Liberal Democrats have many common aims. Both want more investment in schools and hospitals. We want to see that political power is exercised as closely as possible to the Scottish people and we want to ensure that Scotland remains a full and equal partner in a stable United Kingdom. We should not, therefore, be surprised that the new politics in Scotland has led to partnership. Governing Scotland as a partnership from the start reflects the will of the electorate. This is the fulfilment of the Labour party's desire for a new, inclusive and consensual politics. Inclusion and consensus are key words in Scottish politics at the moment. They are the heart and soul of partnership. This is all about finding a way to accommodate our differences, working hard to realise our common aims and forging policies that will contribute to the common good. The proposed Executive is part of a partnership that comprises a majority of the Parliament. When the public watches this debate it will be disappointed that certain members tried to break the consensus so soon by attempting to stop the Executive carrying out its vital work for Scotland. As well as stability in government, the Scottish people—and Scottish business in particular—want stability in national finances and prudence in their use. We already—as part of the wider British partnership—benefit from a stable foundation. The Minister for Finance in this Parliament must ensure that we build on that stability to give us a dynamic and enterprising economy. We must have a minister who understands that prudence in the use of our finances means recognising that there is a public desire for increased investment in schools and hospitals. That increased investment should be delivered because it is right to do so, but it must be delivered without our blindly running into increased income tax. Increased investment must be accompanied by a determination to ensure dynamism and enterprise without the damaging effect of unnecessary tax rises. The Labour party has already shown that it is possible to win the trust of the Scottish people by promising and delivering no rise in income tax. The Executive of this new Parliament will be able to do likewise. I want an Executive that the Scottish people can trust to deliver their priorities. A Minister for Finance whom the people can trust always to have their priorities at heart must be central to that. I, for one, recognise the talent and determination that Jack McConnell would bring to the post. He would think of nothing but Scotland's best interests. Those who seek to oppose this Executive should start to do likewise.", "EditedTextHTML": "I support the election of the Executive that has been proposed by the First Minister because I want stability in the Government. That is a view that I think is shared by the Scottish people. At the start of this new Parliament, the best way to ensure stability and consistency in government is to look at what unites the parties in this chamber, not at what divides them.

Scottish Labour and the Liberal Democrats have many common aims. Both want more investment in schools and hospitals. We want to see that political power is exercised as closely as possible to the Scottish people and we want to ensure that Scotland remains a full and equal partner in a stable United Kingdom.

We should not, therefore, be surprised that the new politics in Scotland has led to partnership. Governing Scotland as a partnership from the start reflects the will of the electorate. This is the fulfilment of the Labour party's desire for a new, inclusive and consensual politics. Inclusion and consensus are key words in Scottish politics at the moment. They are the heart and soul of partnership. This is all about finding a way to accommodate our differences, working hard to realise our common aims and forging policies that will contribute to the common good.

The proposed Executive is part of a partnership that comprises a majority of the Parliament. When the public watches this debate it will be disappointed that certain members tried to break the consensus so soon by attempting to stop the Executive carrying out its vital work for Scotland.

As well as stability in government, the Scottish people—and Scottish business in particular—want stability in national finances and prudence in their use. We already—as part of the wider British partnership—benefit from a stable foundation. The Minister for Finance in this Parliament must ensure that we build on that stability to give us a dynamic and enterprising economy.

We must have a minister who understands that prudence in the use of our finances means recognising that there is a public desire for increased investment in schools and hospitals. That increased investment should be delivered because it is right to do so, but it must be delivered without our blindly running into increased income tax. Increased investment must be accompanied by a determination to ensure dynamism and enterprise without the damaging effect of unnecessary tax rises.

The Labour party has already shown that it is possible to win the trust of the Scottish people by promising and delivering no rise in income tax. The Executive of this new Parliament will be able to do likewise. I want an Executive that the Scottish people can trust to deliver their priorities. A Minister for Finance whom the people can trust always to have their priorities at heart must be central to that.

I, for one, recognise the talent and determination that Jack McConnell would bring to the post. He would think of nothing but Scotland's best interests. Those who seek to oppose this Executive should start to do likewise.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2140E187P335C703647", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Rumbles, Mike", "ID": 2140, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Rumbles", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Rumbles rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 175.0, "ContributionID": 703647, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C703649", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Simpson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 179.0, "ContributionID": 703649, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703659", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 201.0, "ContributionID": 703659, "EditedText": "Mr Matheson, your time is up.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Matheson, your time is up.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2029E47P167C703662", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Henry, Hugh", "ID": 2029, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Hugh Henry", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Hugh Henry (Paisley South) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 208.0, "ContributionID": 703662, "EditedText": "We were told when this new Parliament was created that it would be an opportunity to do things differently, and that it would be a forum for positive debate to represent civic Scotland in a change for the better. However, in a sense, at the first test we have failed, because the first major debate of this Parliament is not about policies that will improve the lot of ordinary people in Scotland; it is an attack on a number of individuals in this Parliament and on the roles which they are hoping to play. We should be debating social inclusion and the damage that has been done in Scotland during 18 years of Tory neglect. Those are the things that matter to the people of Scotland. We have an opportunity in this Parliament to rebuild our civic society.", "EditedTextHTML": "We were told when this new Parliament was created that it would be an opportunity to do things differently, and that it would be a forum for positive debate to represent civic Scotland in a change for the better. However, in a sense, at the first test we have failed, because the first major debate of this Parliament is not about policies that will improve the lot of ordinary people in Scotland; it is an attack on a number of individuals in this Parliament and on the roles which they are hoping to play. We should be debating social inclusion and the damage that has been done in Scotland during 18 years of Tory neglect. Those are the things that matter to the people of Scotland. We have an opportunity in this Parliament to rebuild our civic society.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2029E47P167C703664", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Henry, Hugh", "ID": 2029, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Hugh Henry", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Hugh Henry: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 212.0, "ContributionID": 703664, "EditedText": "When I look at the agreement, I see an opportunity for the Labour party not only to fulfil its manifesto commitments, but to take account of some of the positive things that people from other parties in this Parliament bring to the debate. Yes, we have been elected on a strong manifesto, but we have also been elected on a commitment to listen to other people in this Parliament and to listen to people throughout Scotland. That is how we should proceed. We should be examining ways in which to involve those who have been socially excluded— those who have been neglected and do not have the opportunity to play their full part in our society. We were told by our opponents that they would make this Parliament work, but all we get is a mean-spirited attack on, for example, Henry McLeish, a man who spent countless hours helping to drive through the legislation that created this Parliament, which is attempting to represent civic Scotland. We do not get a debate on the positive virtues of this Parliament, but an attack on Henry McLeish and other individuals. Clearly, there are those who would rather be negative, destructive and spiteful. Colin Campbell (West of Scotland) (SNP)rose—", "EditedTextHTML": "When I look at the agreement, I see an opportunity for the Labour party not only to fulfil its manifesto commitments, but to take account of some of the positive things that people from other parties in this Parliament bring to the debate. Yes, we have been elected on a strong manifesto, but we have also been elected on a commitment to listen to other people in this Parliament and to listen to people throughout Scotland. That is how we should proceed.

We should be examining ways in which to involve those who have been socially excluded— those who have been neglected and do not have the opportunity to play their full part in our society. We were told by our opponents that they would make this Parliament work, but all we get is a mean-spirited attack on, for example, Henry McLeish, a man who spent countless hours helping to drive through the legislation that created this Parliament, which is attempting to represent civic Scotland. We do not get a debate on the positive virtues of this Parliament, but an attack on Henry McLeish and other individuals. Clearly, there are those who would rather be negative, destructive and spiteful.

Colin Campbell (West of Scotland) (SNP)

rose—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1985E207P501C703665", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hamilton, Mr Duncan", "ID": 1985, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Duncan Hamilton (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 214.0, "ContributionID": 703665, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2122E6P19C703666", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay", "ID": 2122, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lyndsay McIntosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mrs Lyndsay McIntosh (Central Scotland) (Con) rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 216.0, "ContributionID": 703666, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703668", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 220.0, "ContributionID": 703668, "EditedText": "If the gentleman does not want to give way, members must resume their seats.", "EditedTextHTML": "If the gentleman does not want to give way, members must resume their seats.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1926E190P479C703672", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Adam, Brian", "ID": 1926, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Adam", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Brian Adam: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 230.0, "ContributionID": 703672, "EditedText": "Mr Macdonald referred to the partnership agreement and to its principles. It is fairly obvious which particular principles the Liberal Democrats have given up to reach that partnership. For the benefit of the rest of us, would Lewis Macdonald care to elucidate which principles the Labour party is giving up to enter the agreement?", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Macdonald referred to the partnership agreement and to its principles. It is fairly obvious which particular principles the Liberal Democrats have given up to reach that partnership. For the benefit of the rest of us, would Lewis Macdonald care to elucidate which principles the Labour party is giving up to enter the agreement?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2117E79P104C703673", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macdonald, Lewis", "ID": 2117, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Aberdeen Central" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Lewis Macdonald", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Lewis Macdonald: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 232.0, "ContributionID": 703673, "EditedText": "I appreciate Mr Adam's persistence in asking that question a second time. He misses the point of the partnership, which is to bring together the positive aspects of the two manifestos. That is what the partnership agreement—very notably—achieves. There will be a particular welcome in the north-east for the strategic approach that the Minister for Rural Affairs permits on rural issues. The new ministry will have a straightforward but very wide remit, although it was criticised by a member of the SNP. In fact the ministry will be responsible for co-ordinating the delivery of services across a wide range. It will work with the transport ministry on integrated rural transport policy and it will work with the justice department on promoting and implementing land reform. These are positive and welcome developments.", "EditedTextHTML": "I appreciate Mr Adam's persistence in asking that question a second time. He misses the point of the partnership, which is to bring together the positive aspects of the two manifestos. That is what the partnership agreement—very notably—achieves.

There will be a particular welcome in the north-east for the strategic approach that the Minister for Rural Affairs permits on rural issues. The new ministry will have a straightforward but very wide remit, although it was criticised by a member of the SNP. In fact the ministry will be responsible for co-ordinating the delivery of services across a wide range. It will work with the transport ministry on integrated rural transport policy and it will work with the justice department on promoting and implementing land reform. These are positive and welcome developments.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703674", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 234.0, "ContributionID": 703674, "EditedText": "Will you finish, please.", "EditedTextHTML": "Will you finish, please.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C703681", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Jim Wallace (Orkney) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 251.0, "ContributionID": 703681, "EditedText": "Those who are here—or people who watched the earlier meetings of the new Parliament—who thought that this was a completely new style of politics, and that the politics of the bitter battles of Westminster were dead and gone, will now have to revise their views. Today's debate has been typical of Westminster, down to the incisive interventions of Phil Gallie and the ever-charming speeches of Roseanna Cunningham. However, this is an era of new politics, and by progressing in a partnership agreement we have shown that such politics are possible. When I hear criticisms, it is with a sense of déjà vu. I remember criticisms from the same coalition of the SNP and Tories when the Liberal Democrats went into the constitutional convention with a broad range of Scottish civic opinion. We were told that, as Liberal Democrats, we would be eaten up, and that by selling out our principles we would not get anywhere. Yet the blueprint that was forged by that constitutional convention—including proportional representation—led to the very Parliament in which we are sitting today.", "EditedTextHTML": "Those who are here—or people who watched the earlier meetings of the new Parliament—who thought that this was a completely new style of politics, and that the politics of the bitter battles of Westminster were dead and gone, will now have to revise their views. Today's debate has been typical of Westminster, down to the incisive interventions of Phil Gallie and the ever-charming speeches of

Roseanna Cunningham. However, this is an era of new politics, and by progressing in a partnership agreement we have shown that such politics are possible. When I hear criticisms, it is with a sense of déjà vu. I remember criticisms from the same coalition of the SNP and Tories when the Liberal Democrats went into the constitutional convention with a broad range of Scottish civic opinion. We were told that, as Liberal Democrats, we would be eaten up, and that by selling out our principles we would not get anywhere. Yet the blueprint that was forged by that constitutional convention—including proportional representation—led to the very Parliament in which we are sitting today.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C703686", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 261.0, "ContributionID": 703686, "EditedText": "We are not disputing the Liberal Democrats going into those partnership talks; it is what they came out with that we are disputing. When we were on election programmes together, Mr Wallace said that the issue of tuition fees was non-negotiable. Did he then mean to negotiate after the election?", "EditedTextHTML": "We are not disputing the Liberal Democrats going into those partnership talks; it is what they came out with that we are disputing. When we were on election programmes together, Mr Wallace said that the issue of tuition fees was non-negotiable. Did he then mean to negotiate after the election?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C703687", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 263.0, "ContributionID": 703687, "EditedText": "I shall come to the issue of tuition fees. Mr Salmond also mentioned what resulted from the talks. I believe that we have achieved an agreement that addresses the needs of the people of Scotland as well as meeting our opportunities and challenges. I appreciate that the culture of coalition government is not one with which we are very familiar in this country. Through either naivety or mischief, people think that the smaller party in a coalition can still achieve its whole manifesto. It is worth remembering what we have achieved: the investment of new real resources in our schools; additional teachers; more investment in books and equipment; immediate measures to tackle student hardship and to improve access to education; building on the health opportunities fund to promote public health; a healthy homes initiative to tackle dampness; a freedom of information regime; progress towards reform of the electoral system for local government; and a ministry for rural affairs, with specific measures to help farmers who are dogged by form filling and to promote quality Scottish meat produce. Our manifesto is committed to providing opportunities for new types of public and private partnerships. I do not think that Mr McLetchie ever read our manifesto. That commitment will allow assets— where appropriate—to revert to public ownership. We are also committed to freezing the tolls on the Skye bridge for the rest of the contract period. All those commitments are more than was ever on offer before and we have managed to negotiate them. Liberal Democrats remain committed to the abolition of tuition fees, as my colleague Mike Rumbles indicated. A crucial element that is spelt out in the agreement is that we remain free to support that view and argue the case for it. We are the only party in this Parliament that has so far taken an initiative on tuition fees, with the exception of an amendment lodged by Mr Canavan. In spite of all the rhetoric, neither Mr Salmond's party nor Mr McLetchie's party has spelt out how they would fulfil and finance their commitment to Scotland's students. We have secured, as a matter of urgency, the establishment of a committee of inquiry, whose membership, time scale and terms of reference will be approved by this Parliament. That committee will address not only tuition fees, but financial support for those participating part time and full time in further and higher education. I share Mr Canavan's concern about hardship among students. That was also mentioned by Mary Scanlon, although I do not think that the Tory party is in any position to lecture on student hardship. The increase in access funds, in line with our manifesto commitment, to £14 million a year is a measure that will address student hardship. The pilot scheme to help young kids, who in the past felt that they had to leave school rather than take the opportunities that higher education could offer them, is a real step forward. Additional help for part-time and mature students is also a worthwhile effort that will encourage students who are trying to improve their qualifications.", "EditedTextHTML": "I shall come to the issue of tuition fees. Mr Salmond also mentioned what resulted from the talks. I believe that we have achieved an agreement that addresses the needs of the people of Scotland as well as meeting our opportunities and challenges.

I appreciate that the culture of coalition government is not one with which we are very familiar in this country. Through either naivety or mischief, people think that the smaller party in a coalition can still achieve its whole manifesto. It is worth remembering what we have achieved: the investment of new real resources in our schools; additional teachers; more investment in books and equipment; immediate measures to tackle student hardship and to improve access to education; building on the health opportunities fund to promote public health; a healthy homes initiative to tackle dampness; a freedom of information regime; progress towards reform of the electoral system for local government; and a ministry for rural affairs, with specific measures to help farmers who are dogged by form filling and to promote quality Scottish meat produce. Our manifesto is committed to providing opportunities for new types of public and private partnerships. I do not think that Mr McLetchie ever read our manifesto. That commitment will allow assets— where appropriate—to revert to public ownership. We are also committed to freezing the tolls on the Skye bridge for the rest of the contract period. All those commitments are more than was ever on offer before and we have managed to negotiate them.

Liberal Democrats remain committed to the abolition of tuition fees, as my colleague Mike Rumbles indicated. A crucial element that is spelt out in the agreement is that we remain free to support that view and argue the case for it. We are the only party in this Parliament that has so far taken an initiative on tuition fees, with the exception of an amendment lodged by Mr Canavan. In spite of all the rhetoric, neither Mr Salmond's party nor Mr McLetchie's party has spelt out how they would fulfil and finance their commitment to Scotland's students.

We have secured, as a matter of urgency, the establishment of a committee of inquiry, whose membership, time scale and terms of reference will be approved by this Parliament. That committee will address not only tuition fees, but financial support for those participating part time and full time in further and higher education. I share Mr Canavan's concern about hardship among students. That was also mentioned by Mary Scanlon, although I do not think that the Tory party is in any position to lecture on student hardship.

The increase in access funds, in line with our manifesto commitment, to £14 million a year is a measure that will address student hardship. The pilot scheme to help young kids, who in the past felt that they had to leave school rather than take

the opportunities that higher education could offer them, is a real step forward. Additional help for part-time and mature students is also a worthwhile effort that will encourage students who are trying to improve their qualifications.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703693", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 275.0, "ContributionID": 703693, "EditedText": "FOR Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)AGAINST Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)Mackay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)(LD)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)

AGAINST

Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Mackay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)
(LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703694", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 276.0, "ContributionID": 703694, "EditedText": "The result of the division is as follows: For 51, Against 70, Abstentions 0.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result of the division is as follows: For 51, Against 70, Abstentions 0.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703698", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 283.0, "ContributionID": 703698, "EditedText": "In that case, we move to a division. Those who support the amendment should vote yes, those who oppose it should vote no, and those who want to abstain should press their abstain button now.", "EditedTextHTML": "In that case, we move to a division.

Those who support the amendment should vote yes, those who oppose it should vote no, and those who want to abstain should press their abstain button now.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703704", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 293.0, "ContributionID": 703704, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703705", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 295.0, "ContributionID": 703705, "EditedText": "In that case, there will be a division.", "EditedTextHTML": "In that case, there will be a division.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703710", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 303.0, "ContributionID": 703710, "EditedText": "Meeting adjourned at 12:03.", "EditedTextHTML": "Meeting adjourned at 12:03.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C703715", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 314.0, "ContributionID": 703715, "EditedText": "The junior minister, like the senior minister, would be expected to follow the collective policy of the Administration. He would not be allowed to go off on a fishing trip of his own, if I may put it that way. He would have to follow. I am sure that we will return to the question of fishing. However, as Alex Salmond will know, the order was made in early March, and was explained in a Scottish Office press release at the time. The order went through the House of Commons on 23 March. If the SNP missed it—I can understand how such things happen—it, too, may have some explaining to do. I believe that this group of junior ministers has talent and considerable relevant experience. I look forward to working with a very able group of ministers who will be of enormous support to the principal ministers in their departments. The junior ministers will be part of a corporate team; that is an important point. We have heard a lot about tuition fees and this and that; we have also had some wonderful mixed metaphors. I particularly enjoyed David McLetchie's remark that the committee of inquiry was both a fudge and a fig leaf. I would have thought it would be either one or the other. If I could mix metaphors even more, he probably thinks that we are using belt and braces. In any event, it was a cheery debate. In his speech, Jim Wallace referred to three substantial concessions that have been overlooked. Those substantial concessions are for those from poorer backgrounds who stay on at school to get university qualifications and who require financial support. There will also be support for part-time mature students. Moreover, the access fund has been increased to £14 million. Those concessions are worth underlining because they provide practical help and broaden the base of entry to higher education. Perhaps that—I put this forward as a point of debate—is a more practical and obvious course to take than to remove a charge that is paid only by those whose families are better off.", "EditedTextHTML": "The junior minister, like the senior minister, would be expected to follow the collective policy of the Administration. He would not be allowed to go off on a fishing trip of his own, if I may put it that way. He would have to follow.

I am sure that we will return to the question of fishing. However, as Alex Salmond will know, the order was made in early March, and was explained in a Scottish Office press release at the time. The order went through the House of Commons on 23 March. If the SNP missed it—I can understand how such things happen—it, too, may have some explaining to do.

I believe that this group of junior ministers has talent and considerable relevant experience. I look forward to working with a very able group of ministers who will be of enormous support to the principal ministers in their departments. The junior ministers will be part of a corporate team; that is an important point.

We have heard a lot about tuition fees and this and that; we have also had some wonderful mixed metaphors. I particularly enjoyed David McLetchie's remark that the committee of inquiry was both a fudge and a fig leaf. I would have thought it would be either one or the other. If I could mix metaphors even more, he probably thinks that we are using belt and braces. In any event, it was a cheery debate.

In his speech, Jim Wallace referred to three substantial concessions that have been overlooked. Those substantial concessions are for those from poorer backgrounds who stay on at school to get university qualifications and who require financial support. There will also be support for part-time mature students. Moreover, the access fund has been increased to £14 million. Those concessions are worth underlining because they provide practical help and broaden the base of entry to higher education. Perhaps that—I put

this forward as a point of debate—is a more practical and obvious course to take than to remove a charge that is paid only by those whose families are better off.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C703719", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 322.0, "ContributionID": 703719, "EditedText": "I know that Andrew Wilson was one of the chief architects of the SNP manifesto. As the SNP was attempting to buy the sun, the moon and the stars—and various other things—on the basis of savings within the Scottish Office block budget, it is a little odd that he should question me on spending. Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP)rose—", "EditedTextHTML": "I know that Andrew Wilson was one of the chief architects of the SNP manifesto. As the SNP was attempting to buy the sun, the moon and the stars—and various other things—on the basis of savings within the Scottish Office block budget, it is a little odd that he should question me on spending.

Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP)

rose—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C703721", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 327.0, "ContributionID": 703721, "EditedText": "I move amendment S1M-5.1, to leave out \"Nicol Stephen\" and \"Iain Smith\". I start by expressing the apologies of Annabel Goldie, who intended to move the amendment but was called away for a funeral. If the First Minister does not recognise the difference between a fudge and a fig leaf, he does not inspire me with confidence. This morning, he referred to the misses that I made. I missed winning Ayr by 25 votes, reducing the Labour majority by some 6,500. I do not intend to miss it next time round. This morning, there was a lot of hot air and indignation against those of us who dared to question the make-up of the First Minister's lists. The First Minister was dismissive about our amendment, which the Presiding Officer accepted for debate. He referred to a little huddle of amendments, which perhaps sets the tone for future Government-led debates. Labour members express dismay at the loss of consensus in the new style of politics. In every respect, their way is the Blairite way: \"Do not question, just accept and do what I say.\" That may be good enough for Labour and Liberal members, but it is certainly not good enough for Conservative members or for Dennis Canavan, as the points that he made this morning show. New politics? The Scottish electorate would settle for honest politics. They would like to believe that politicians mean what they say, which is precisely what this amendment is about. I have no beef with the Labour party other than over the number of ministerial positions created. Hugh Henry gave the game away to the Liberals this morning when he said that the partnership was about delivering on Labour's manifesto commitments. For the Labour party it may be partnership; for the Liberals it is absorption. A comparison between the document \"Partnership for Scotland\" and the Liberals' election pledges emphasises the scale of the sell-out. That is why I ask members to support the amendment. I bear no personal animosity towards Nicol Stephen or Iain Smith. Like, I suspect, most of us in the chamber, I know little of them, but I know that they supported their leader when he said two days before the election that tuition fees would be dead on the following Friday. Nicol Stephen boasted that the Liberals had done more than any other party to campaign against Labour's tuition fees, but he now condones them. How can he condone—how can we condone—the appointment of Nicol Stephen and Iain Smith as Government ministers when we want honesty to be restored to the political scene?This morning, Conservatives were criticised for not having prepared the way for the abolition of tuition fees, but that comment showed a lack of knowledge. We tabled a bill in the House of Lords. Our measures were costed and could have been covered within the Scottish block grant. The Liberals' motion on tuition fees is a smokescreen. I suspect that they were put up to it by their Labour masters, who—as Dennis Canavan said this morning—are well experienced in that.", "EditedTextHTML": "I move amendment S1M-5.1, to leave out \"Nicol Stephen\" and \"Iain Smith\".

I start by expressing the apologies of Annabel Goldie, who intended to move the amendment but was called away for a funeral.

If the First Minister does not recognise the difference between a fudge and a fig leaf, he does not inspire me with confidence. This morning, he referred to the misses that I made. I missed winning Ayr by 25 votes, reducing the Labour majority by some 6,500. I do not intend to miss it next time round.

This morning, there was a lot of hot air and indignation against those of us who dared to question the make-up of the First Minister's lists. The First Minister was dismissive about our amendment, which the Presiding Officer accepted for debate. He referred to a little huddle of amendments, which perhaps sets the tone for future Government-led debates.

Labour members express dismay at the loss of consensus in the new style of politics. In every respect, their way is the Blairite way: \"Do not question, just accept and do what I say.\" That may be good enough for Labour and Liberal members, but it is certainly not good enough for Conservative members or for Dennis Canavan, as the points that he made this morning show.

New politics? The Scottish electorate would settle for honest politics. They would like to believe that politicians mean what they say, which is precisely what this amendment is about.

I have no beef with the Labour party other than over the number of ministerial positions created. Hugh Henry gave the game away to the Liberals this morning when he said that the partnership was about delivering on Labour's manifesto commitments. For the Labour party it may be partnership; for the Liberals it is absorption.

A comparison between the document \"Partnership for Scotland\" and the Liberals' election pledges emphasises the scale of the sell-out. That is why I ask members to support the amendment. I bear no personal animosity towards Nicol Stephen or Iain Smith. Like, I suspect, most of us in the chamber, I know little of them, but I know that they supported their leader when he said two days before the election that tuition fees would be dead on the following Friday.

Nicol Stephen boasted that the Liberals had done more than any other party to campaign against Labour's tuition fees, but he now condones them. How can he condone—how can we condone—the appointment of Nicol Stephen and Iain Smith as Government ministers when we

want honesty to be restored to the political scene?

This morning, Conservatives were criticised for not having prepared the way for the abolition of tuition fees, but that comment showed a lack of knowledge. We tabled a bill in the House of Lords. Our measures were costed and could have been covered within the Scottish block grant.

The Liberals' motion on tuition fees is a smokescreen. I suspect that they were put up to it by their Labour masters, who—as Dennis Canavan said this morning—are well experienced in that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C703723", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 331.0, "ContributionID": 703723, "EditedText": "I will take challenges from anyone, but if they, like Mr Smith, are not prepared for activities in this Parliament and cannot work their microphones, that is their tough luck. Other members want to speak. We must recognise that time is limited. We also heard about reviews yesterday, when Mr McCabe and Mr Dewar attempted to put the issue of prayers on the back burner. That is typical of Labour. We need to examine what Labour has done recently. The Scottish air traffic control centre at Prestwick has been on the back burner for the past two years.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will take challenges from anyone, but if they, like Mr Smith, are not prepared for activities in this Parliament and cannot work their microphones, that is their tough luck. Other members want to speak. We must recognise that time is limited.

We also heard about reviews yesterday, when Mr McCabe and Mr Dewar attempted to put the issue of prayers on the back burner. That is typical of Labour. We need to examine what Labour has done recently. The Scottish air traffic control centre at Prestwick has been on the back burner for the past two years.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C703724", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 333.0, "ContributionID": 703724, "EditedText": "What is he talking about?", "EditedTextHTML": "What is he talking about?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C703725", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 335.0, "ContributionID": 703725, "EditedText": "If Donald does not know what I am talking about, I suggest that he gets to grips with these issues, because they are important to Scotland. Like defence cuts, the A77 upgrade has been put on the back burner in order to waste time and to lay off implementing those aims that Labour has but that it has not declared since it was elected. I suspect that more issues will be put on the back burner following the difficulties that Labour is having at Westminster over social security reform. Let us not get fixated on tuition fees. What about the Liberals' pledge to end the beef-on-the-bone ban? People spoke about the medical risk, but the chance was 1 billion to one. None of us would even consider such a risk when travelling to this place. What about the abolition of eye-test and dental charges and the Liberals' stand against the private finance initiative? All those ideals seem to have gone down the tubes. To some extent, I feel sorry for Liberal voters. They put their faith in the Liberal Democrats and they have been let down badly. But never mind the Liberals—what about the size of this team?", "EditedTextHTML": "If Donald does not know what I am talking about, I suggest that he gets to grips with these issues, because they are important to Scotland.

Like defence cuts, the A77 upgrade has been put on the back burner in order to waste time and to lay off implementing those aims that Labour has but that it has not declared since it was elected. I suspect that more issues will be put on the back burner following the difficulties that Labour is having at Westminster over social security reform.

Let us not get fixated on tuition fees. What about the Liberals' pledge to end the beef-on-the-bone ban? People spoke about the medical risk, but the chance was 1 billion to one. None of us would even consider such a risk when travelling to this place. What about the abolition of eye-test and dental charges and the Liberals' stand against the private finance initiative? All those ideals seem to have gone down the tubes.

To some extent, I feel sorry for Liberal voters. They put their faith in the Liberal Democrats and they have been let down badly. But never mind the Liberals—what about the size of this team?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C703727", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 339.0, "ContributionID": 703727, "EditedText": "All right. Today, we are asked to confirm 22 ministers. Added to that are another five Scottish ministers at Westminster, giving 27 in all. David McLetchie talked this morning of an explosion in the ministerial team. If an increase from seven ministers to 27 is not an explosion, I do not know what is.", "EditedTextHTML": "All right. Today, we are asked to confirm 22 ministers. Added to that are another five Scottish ministers at Westminster, giving 27 in all. David McLetchie talked this morning of an explosion in the ministerial team. If an increase from seven ministers to 27 is not an explosion, I do not know what is.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703730", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 345.0, "ContributionID": 703730, "EditedText": "I know that that was your intention and that was why I was clarifying it. The amendment before Parliament is to \"leave out ‘Nicol Stephen' and ‘Iain Smith'.\"The time limit for speeches will be the same as it was this morning—four minutes—but if everybody takes the full four minutes we will not get through the list of those who have requested to speak. If members speak for less than four minutes, everybody will get a chance to speak.", "EditedTextHTML": "I know that that was your intention and that was why I was clarifying it. The amendment before Parliament is to

\"leave out ‘Nicol Stephen' and ‘Iain Smith'.\"

The time limit for speeches will be the same as it was this morning—four minutes—but if everybody takes the full four minutes we will not get through the list of those who have requested to speak. If members speak for less than four minutes, everybody will get a chance to speak.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2188E70P92C703737", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harper, Robin", "ID": 2188, "PartyName": "Scottish Green Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Green", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robin Harper", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robin Harper: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 361.0, "ContributionID": 703737, "EditedText": "I want to say—Interruption.", "EditedTextHTML": "I want to say—[Interruption.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C703738", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 363.0, "ContributionID": 703738, "EditedText": "Is this eating into my four minutes?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is this eating into my four minutes?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2188E70P92C703739", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harper, Robin", "ID": 2188, "PartyName": "Scottish Green Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Green", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robin Harper", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robin Harper: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 365.0, "ContributionID": 703739, "EditedText": "Does Mr Raffan agree that, despite what he has said, it is a matter of considerable regret that the Liberal party has abandoned its commitment to ban the further planting of genetically modified crops in Scotland? The Liberals have a commitment in their manifesto that there should be no commercial planting of GM crops. I know that it has not yet started, but the pressures for commercial planting will now be excessive.", "EditedTextHTML": "Does Mr Raffan agree that, despite what he has said, it is a matter of considerable regret that the Liberal party has abandoned its commitment to ban the further planting of genetically modified crops in Scotland? The Liberals have a commitment in their manifesto that there should be no commercial planting of GM crops. I know that it has not yet started, but the pressures for commercial planting will now be excessive.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2188E70P92C703742", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harper, Robin", "ID": 2188, "PartyName": "Scottish Green Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Green", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robin Harper", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robin Harper: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 371.0, "ContributionID": 703742, "EditedText": "Is it a matter of regret to Mr Raffan that, in the partnership agreement, the Liberal party appears to have dropped its commitment—", "EditedTextHTML": "Is it a matter of regret to Mr Raffan that, in the partnership agreement, the Liberal party appears to have dropped its commitment—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C703745", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 377.0, "ContributionID": 703745, "EditedText": "The real reason for the Conservatives' bitter hostility to the agreement is their envy of the coalition being achieved between two mature parties. After all, they cannot even reach consensus among themselves with the Michael Howard faction versus the William Hague faction.", "EditedTextHTML": "The real reason for the Conservatives' bitter hostility to the agreement is their envy of the coalition being achieved between two mature parties. After all, they cannot even reach consensus among themselves with the Michael Howard faction versus the William Hague faction.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C703746", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 379.0, "ContributionID": 703746, "EditedText": "Could you sit down, please?", "EditedTextHTML": "Could you sit down, please?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C703749", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 385.0, "ContributionID": 703749, "EditedText": "On a point of order. Was Mr Harper's intervention taken out of my time or did I have four minutes?", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. Was Mr Harper's intervention taken out of my time or did I have four minutes?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C703750", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 387.0, "ContributionID": 703750, "EditedText": "It is taken out of your time—it is part of the allotted time for the individual's speech.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is taken out of your time—it is part of the allotted time for the individual's speech.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2234E7P20C703753", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Aitken, Bill", "ID": 2234, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bill Aitken", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bill Aitken (Glasgow) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 396.0, "ContributionID": 703753, "EditedText": "This afternoon, several people have asked what the real issue of this debate is. The real issue is that a major Scottish political party has reneged clearly and categorically on promises that it made to the electorate. That is a disgraceful and shameful situation. Let us consider what has been cobbled together. The Liberals say that they have achieved 48 of their aims—of course they have. The only reason that they have achieved those aims is that they were in the Labour manifesto as well. Many of those issues were also dealt with by the SNP and the Conservatives—so that is what the Liberal Democrats have got: absolutely nothing. And what have they lost? They have lost political credibility and respect. As I listened to the sanctimonious diatribe from Keith Raffan, it occurred to me that this may indeed be the end of the Scottish Liberal Democrat party. How long will it be before it is totally subsumed by the Labour party? The one person for whom I feel sorry this afternoon is Iain Smith, whom I have not yet had the pleasure of meeting. He is going to be the deputy whip to Tom McCabe. Tom McCabe lives in the real world; he is from the west of Scotland. He knows how the Labour party is run. As someone from the west of Scotland myself, I can tell Mr Smith that he is going to learn a very hard lesson. It will be interesting indeed to discover how he will approach Mr Gorrie and, possibly, Mr Raffan, when the deal is put down and when he is told that those members must produce their votes. What powers of persuasion will he use on that delicate occasion? Both Mr Gorrie and Mr Raffan are, I suspect, men of principle who will tell him frankly where to get off. How will Mr Smith explain that to his boss, Mr McCabe? The other issue to emerge from today's debate is, as David McLetchie said, the size of the Administration. That will no doubt be costed in due course. It will be interesting when the cost of ministerial salaries is weighed against what that Administration can produce. \"Education, education, education\" may have been the mantra of 1997, but how much of the Parliament's money that is about to be spent on a bloated and oversized Administration could be used for the benefit of education? How much of it could be used to provide additional school books and additional classroom assistants? The issue of tuition fees, however, is one that cannot be sidetracked, because its effect on the Scottish people is manifest. The system has caused a dramatic fall in applications, it has affected middle-income families, and is generally unfair. It is a chicken that will, in due course, come very firmly home to roost. Although I do not want to anticipate the result of the inquiries that will be carried out, it will be very interesting indeed to see how our Liberal Democrat friends cope if the result goes the wrong way. In the spirit of good will that has existed since this Parliament began, I ought to express my best wishes to those who are to attain ministerial office this afternoon. However, in view of the reek of hypocrisy that is coming across from the Liberal Democrat benches, I hope that members will understand if I cannot extend that good will to Mr Stephen and to Mr Smith.", "EditedTextHTML": "This afternoon, several people have asked what the real issue of this debate is. The real issue is that a major Scottish political party has reneged clearly and categorically on promises that it made to the electorate. That is a disgraceful and shameful situation. Let us consider what has been cobbled together. The Liberals say that they have achieved 48 of their aims—of course they have. The only reason that they have achieved those aims is that they were in the Labour manifesto as well. Many of those issues were also dealt with by the SNP and the Conservatives—so that is what the Liberal Democrats have got: absolutely nothing. And what have they lost? They have lost political credibility and respect. As I listened to the sanctimonious diatribe from Keith Raffan, it occurred to me that this may indeed be the end of the Scottish Liberal Democrat party. How long will it be before it is totally subsumed by the Labour party?

The one person for whom I feel sorry this afternoon is Iain Smith, whom I have not yet had the pleasure of meeting. He is going to be the deputy whip to Tom McCabe. Tom McCabe lives in the real world; he is from the west of Scotland. He knows how the Labour party is run. As someone from the west of Scotland myself, I can tell Mr Smith that he is going to learn a very hard lesson. It will be interesting indeed to discover how

he will approach Mr Gorrie and, possibly, Mr Raffan, when the deal is put down and when he is told that those members must produce their votes. What powers of persuasion will he use on that delicate occasion? Both Mr Gorrie and Mr Raffan are, I suspect, men of principle who will tell him frankly where to get off. How will Mr Smith explain that to his boss, Mr McCabe?

The other issue to emerge from today's debate is, as David McLetchie said, the size of the Administration. That will no doubt be costed in due course. It will be interesting when the cost of ministerial salaries is weighed against what that Administration can produce. \"Education, education, education\" may have been the mantra of 1997, but how much of the Parliament's money that is about to be spent on a bloated and oversized Administration could be used for the benefit of education? How much of it could be used to provide additional school books and additional classroom assistants?

The issue of tuition fees, however, is one that cannot be sidetracked, because its effect on the Scottish people is manifest. The system has caused a dramatic fall in applications, it has affected middle-income families, and is generally unfair. It is a chicken that will, in due course, come very firmly home to roost. Although I do not want to anticipate the result of the inquiries that will be carried out, it will be very interesting indeed to see how our Liberal Democrat friends cope if the result goes the wrong way.

In the spirit of good will that has existed since this Parliament began, I ought to express my best wishes to those who are to attain ministerial office this afternoon. However, in view of the reek of hypocrisy that is coming across from the Liberal Democrat benches, I hope that members will understand if I cannot extend that good will to Mr Stephen and to Mr Smith.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C703755", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bruce Crawford (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP) rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 401.0, "ContributionID": 703755, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2038E191P344C703759", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Smith, Iain", "ID": 2038, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Iain Smith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Iain Smith (North-East Fife) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 411.0, "ContributionID": 703759, "EditedText": "Which words of the agreement do you not understand? The two parties will each consider the evidence and conclusions of the committee of inquiry.", "EditedTextHTML": "Which words of the agreement do you not understand? The two parties will each consider the evidence and conclusions of the committee of inquiry.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C703766", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Simpson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 426.0, "ContributionID": 703766, "EditedText": "No, I will not give way. I welcome this morning's appointment of Susan Deacon as the first ever woman health minister in Scotland, and now speak to the nomination of Iain Gray, who has specific responsibility for community care. Health is an important issue, and the appointment of this team should be welcomed by the whole chamber. As a doctor, I welcome the commitment to a patient-centred health service contained within \"Partnership for Scotland\". There has been a protracted period of structural change in the national health service in Scotland. Although those changes are designed specifically and uniquely to meet the needs of the Scottish community, in partnership with all health workers we must turn our attention to making those improved structures work for the people who matter most: patients. Our patient-centred health programme will include one-stop clinics to provide same-day tests and diagnosis, and a new NHS helpline, NHS Direct, which will ensure that health advice is immediately available around the clock, every day of the year, to everyone in Scotland. The programme will also include the use of the best technology to link every doctor's surgery in Scotland to the NHS, thus providing an immediate connection among surgeries, pharmacies and hospitals. Under the previous leadership of Sam Galbraith, who introduced the programme, Scotland already leads Britain in this area. We have just begun to tap into the improvements in the care process that the new information technology will create. Unlike the sterile debating process in which we are engaged today, these are real issues that real people are facing. We will establish walk-in walk-out centres that will offer same-day treatment by specialist staff.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I will not give way. I welcome this morning's appointment of Susan Deacon as the first ever woman health minister in Scotland, and now speak to the nomination of Iain Gray, who has specific responsibility for community care. Health is an important issue, and the appointment of this team should be welcomed by the whole chamber.

As a doctor, I welcome the commitment to a patient-centred health service contained within \"Partnership for Scotland\". There has been a protracted period of structural change in the national health service in Scotland. Although those changes are designed specifically and uniquely to meet the needs of the Scottish community, in partnership with all health workers we must turn our attention to making those improved structures work for the people who matter most: patients.

Our patient-centred health programme will include one-stop clinics to provide same-day tests and diagnosis, and a new NHS helpline, NHS Direct, which will ensure that health advice is immediately available around the clock, every day of the year, to everyone in Scotland.

The programme will also include the use of the best technology to link every doctor's surgery in Scotland to the NHS, thus providing an immediate connection among surgeries, pharmacies and hospitals. Under the previous leadership of Sam

Galbraith, who introduced the programme, Scotland already leads Britain in this area. We have just begun to tap into the improvements in the care process that the new information technology will create. Unlike the sterile debating process in which we are engaged today, these are real issues that real people are facing.

We will establish walk-in walk-out centres that will offer same-day treatment by specialist staff.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C703768", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Simpson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 430.0, "ContributionID": 703768, "EditedText": "No. Perhaps the appointment of Iain Gray as a junior minister, with a specific remit for care in the community, will begin to break down the Berlin walls that have grown up between health and social work since 1969. That is another real issue facing real patients in hospitals today.", "EditedTextHTML": "No. Perhaps the appointment of Iain Gray as a junior minister, with a specific remit for care in the community, will begin to break down the Berlin walls that have grown up between health and social work since 1969. That is another real issue facing real patients in hospitals today.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C703770", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Simpson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 434.0, "ContributionID": 703770, "EditedText": "No. Our patients need a seamless care service and everything that the new department does will be focused on patients. The partnership's renewed and binding commitment to patient-centred care will allow the Government to commit to the biggest ever hospital building programme in Scotland's history. It is a commitment not only to shorten waiting lists but to speed up treatment and shorten waiting times, to increase the number of doctors and to increase NHS spending in real terms over the coming years. I am particularly pleased that \"Partnership for Scotland\" commits the Government to seek the guidance of the parliamentary health committee. The real debates, as opposed to today's sterile debate, will take place in the committees. We need to debate the complex issue of tuition fees, but the soundbite approach that has been adopted by certain members today is utterly appalling. It gives me great pleasure to speak to the nomination of Iain Gray. The Parliament should support his nomination.", "EditedTextHTML": "No. Our patients need a seamless care service and everything that the new department does will be focused on patients. The partnership's renewed and binding commitment to patient-centred care will allow the Government to commit to the biggest ever hospital building programme in Scotland's history. It is a commitment not only to shorten waiting lists but to speed up treatment and shorten waiting times, to increase the number of doctors and to increase NHS spending in real terms over the coming years.

I am particularly pleased that \"Partnership for Scotland\" commits the Government to seek the guidance of the parliamentary health committee. The real debates, as opposed to today's sterile debate, will take place in the committees. We need to debate the complex issue of tuition fees, but the soundbite approach that has been adopted by certain members today is utterly appalling.

It gives me great pleasure to speak to the nomination of Iain Gray. The Parliament should support his nomination.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C703773", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 441.0, "ContributionID": 703773, "EditedText": "I did notice the silence, but I thank Mr Swinney for the intervention. The actions of the Liberal Democrats reminds me that Winston Churchill used to say—it is not often that a nationalist quotes Winston Churchill— that the Liberals sat on the fence so much that they could be called mugwumps; they sat on the fence with their mugs on one side and their wumps on the other. Last week the wumps wanted the abolition of tuition fees; this week the mugs have sold out on that issue. Last week they were going to demand radical changes in the private finance initiative; this week they have sold out on the private finance initiative. Last week they were going to start to use the tax-raising power for investment in education; this week they have ruled that out for four years.", "EditedTextHTML": "I did notice the silence, but I thank Mr Swinney for the intervention.

The actions of the Liberal Democrats reminds me that Winston Churchill used to say—it is not often that a nationalist quotes Winston Churchill— that the Liberals sat on the fence so much that they could be called mugwumps; they sat on the fence with their mugs on one side and their wumps on the other.

Last week the wumps wanted the abolition of tuition fees; this week the mugs have sold out on that issue. Last week they were going to demand radical changes in the private finance initiative; this week they have sold out on the private finance initiative. Last week they were going to start to use the tax-raising power for investment in education; this week they have ruled that out for four years.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C703775", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 445.0, "ContributionID": 703775, "EditedText": "I submit that this is the biggest betrayal of the Scottish people since the previous Lib-Lab pact, 22 years ago.", "EditedTextHTML": "I submit that this is the biggest betrayal of the Scottish people since the previous Lib-Lab pact, 22 years ago.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C703776", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 448.0, "ContributionID": 703776, "EditedText": "I would have liked to put this question to the First Minister, but he is not now here, so perhaps one of his colleagues can answer: has anybody done any costing on this exercise? Has anybody considered the cost of the additional member and all the trappings that go with ministerial positions? If so, could they put a price on it? I would hazard a guess that the cost would be about the same as the take from 1p on income tax, but I stand to be corrected on that. Laughter. Before Dr Simpson laughs, he, or a Labour minister, should come up with the figures. Dr Simpson suggested that members were wrong to question the honesty of other members. This debate is all about honesty. It is about pledges that were given to the electorate. If Dr Simpson thinks that it is right to tell the electorate one thing but do another he is in the wrong place. I would like to pick out one or two members, such as Bill Aitken, who did make useful comments. Bill, who has long experience in the west of Scotland, made a very useful contribution. He pointed out that the Liberals had, once again, got nothing for their manifesto commitments. Keith Raffan asked whether the Tories will support the partnership. Our line is as we stated before the election: we will support policies in the partnership document that will benefit Scotland, but we will stand against any bad policies.", "EditedTextHTML": "I would have liked to put this question to the First Minister, but he is not now here, so perhaps one of his colleagues can answer: has anybody done any costing on this exercise? Has anybody considered the cost of the additional member and all the trappings that go with ministerial positions? If so, could they put a price on it?

I would hazard a guess that the cost would be about the same as the take from 1p on income tax, but I stand to be corrected on that. [Laughter.] Before Dr Simpson laughs, he, or a Labour minister, should come up with the figures. Dr Simpson suggested that members were wrong to question the honesty of other members. This debate is all about honesty. It is about pledges that were given to the electorate. If Dr Simpson thinks that it is right to tell the electorate one thing but do another he is in the wrong place.

I would like to pick out one or two members, such as Bill Aitken, who did make useful comments. Bill, who has long experience in the west of Scotland, made a very useful contribution. He pointed out that the Liberals had, once again, got nothing for their manifesto commitments.

Keith Raffan asked whether the Tories will support the partnership. Our line is as we stated before the election: we will support policies in the partnership document that will benefit Scotland, but we will stand against any bad policies.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703779", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 454.0, "ContributionID": 703779, "EditedText": "Please wind up now, Mr Gallie.", "EditedTextHTML": "Please wind up now, Mr Gallie.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703796", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 487.0, "ContributionID": 703796, "EditedText": "In that case, there will be a division. Please vote now.", "EditedTextHTML": "In that case, there will be a division. Please vote now.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C703804", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 501.0, "ContributionID": 703804, "EditedText": "On a point of order, Sir David.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order, Sir David.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703799", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 492.0, "ContributionID": 703799, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703805", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 503.0, "ContributionID": 703805, "EditedText": "I hope that this is a genuine point of order.", "EditedTextHTML": "I hope that this is a genuine point of order.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703807", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 507.0, "ContributionID": 703807, "EditedText": "Mr Wilson, that point will be entirely relevant in a moment when we come to the business motion. You might want to make it then.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Wilson, that point will be entirely relevant in a moment when we come to the business motion. You might want to make it then.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703809", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 511.0, "ContributionID": 703809, "EditedText": "You can put the point to the Business Manager in the next item of business. We will discuss that matter in a moment, once we have finished dealing with the election to the corporate body. The business motion is before us and your point will be very relevant then.", "EditedTextHTML": "You can put the point to the Business Manager in the next item of business. We will discuss that matter in a moment, once we have finished dealing with the election to the corporate body. The business motion is before us and your point will be very relevant then.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C703816", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26595, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 517.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 517.0, "ID": 26595, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bruce Crawford (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 525.0, "ContributionID": 703816, "EditedText": "On a point of order. There is obviously some confusion about this afternoon's process. There is general agreement about what the process should be, but to ensure that everyone understands the voting process, it would be useful to have a short adjournment, if that is possible.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. There is obviously some confusion about this afternoon's process. There is general agreement about what the process should be, but to ensure that everyone understands the voting process, it would be useful to have a short adjournment, if that is possible.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703821", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26595, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 517.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 517.0, "ID": 26595, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 535.0, "ContributionID": 703821, "EditedText": "I will speak up.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will speak up.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2228E151P202C703822", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26595, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 517.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 517.0, "ID": 26595, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McCabe, Tom", "ID": 2228, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Tom McCabe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tom McCabe (Hamilton South) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 537.0, "ContributionID": 703822, "EditedText": "I wish to raise a point of order similar to that raised by Mr Crawford. I think that a brief adjournment of no more than two minutes would be helpful in order to avoid any confusion during the vote.", "EditedTextHTML": "I wish to raise a point of order similar to that raised by Mr Crawford. I think that a brief adjournment of no more than two minutes would be helpful in order to avoid any confusion during the vote.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2228E151P202C703824", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26595, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 517.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 517.0, "ID": 26595, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McCabe, Tom", "ID": 2228, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Tom McCabe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McCabe: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 541.0, "ContributionID": 703824, "EditedText": "I am.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703830", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26595, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 517.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 517.0, "ID": 26595, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 554.0, "ContributionID": 703830, "EditedText": "Members voted.", "EditedTextHTML": "Members voted.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703833", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26595, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 517.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 517.0, "ID": 26595, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 560.0, "ContributionID": 703833, "EditedText": "Voting time is closed. Members who wish to vote for Mr Andrew Welsh should do so now.", "EditedTextHTML": "Voting time is closed. Members who wish to vote for Mr Andrew Welsh should do so now.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703837", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26595, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 517.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 517.0, "ID": 26595, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 569.0, "ContributionID": 703837, "EditedText": "Voting time is up. Anyone wishing to record an abstention should press the abstention button now. The time for voting is up. I declare the results as follows:", "EditedTextHTML": "Voting time is up. Anyone wishing to record an abstention should press the abstention button now.
The time for voting is up. I declare the results as follows:

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703838", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26595, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 517.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 517.0, "ID": 26595, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 573.0, "ContributionID": 703838, "EditedText": "Robert Brown 108Des McNulty 9Andrew Welsh 1John Young 0Abstentions 0VOTES FOR ROBERT BROWN Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)(LD)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)VOTES FOR DES MCNULTY Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)VOTE FOR MR ANDREW WELSHMcNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)", "EditedTextHTML": "Robert Brown 108
Des McNulty 9
Andrew Welsh 1
John Young 0
Abstentions 0

VOTES FOR ROBERT BROWN

Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)
(LD)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)

VOTES FOR DES MCNULTY

Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)

VOTE FOR MR ANDREW WELSH

McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703842", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26595, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 517.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 517.0, "ID": 26595, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 580.0, "ContributionID": 703842, "EditedText": "Members voted.", "EditedTextHTML": "Members voted.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703847", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26595, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 517.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 517.0, "ID": 26595, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 591.0, "ContributionID": 703847, "EditedText": "I declare that Des McNulty is elected. We now move on to the third election. There are two candidates—Mr Andrew Welsh and John Young. Those who wish to vote for Mr Andrew Welsh please press the yes button now.", "EditedTextHTML": "I declare that Des McNulty is elected.

We now move on to the third election. There are two candidates—Mr Andrew Welsh and John Young. Those who wish to vote for Mr Andrew Welsh please press the yes button now.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703848", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26595, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 517.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 517.0, "ID": 26595, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 593.0, "ContributionID": 703848, "EditedText": "Members voted.", "EditedTextHTML": "Members voted.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703853", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26595, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 517.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 517.0, "ID": 26595, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 604.0, "ContributionID": 703853, "EditedText": "I declare that Andrew Welsh is elected. We now come to the last election. There is one nomination, John Young. Vote yes, no or abstain. Those who wish to vote for John Young or otherwise should vote now.", "EditedTextHTML": "I declare that Andrew Welsh is elected.

We now come to the last election. There is one nomination, John Young. Vote yes, no or abstain. Those who wish to vote for John Young or otherwise should vote now.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703858", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sitting Days", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26596, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 613.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 613.0, "ID": 26596, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 614.0, "ContributionID": 703858, "EditedText": "The next scheduled business of the day is a debate on a Parliamentary Bureau motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "The next scheduled business of the day is a debate on a Parliamentary Bureau motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2228E151P202C703859", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sitting Days", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26596, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 613.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 613.0, "ID": 26596, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McCabe, Tom", "ID": 2228, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Tom McCabe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tom McCabe (Hamilton South) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 617.0, "ContributionID": 703859, "EditedText": "Under rule 8.2.6 of the standing orders, I move without notice that the motion, That this Parliament agrees that the office of the Clerk should be open on each of the following days: Monday 24 to Thursday 27 May, Tuesday 1 to Friday 4 June, Monday 7 to Friday 11 June and Monday 14 to Friday 18 June, should be taken now.", "EditedTextHTML": "Under rule 8.2.6 of the standing orders, I move without notice that the motion, That this Parliament agrees that the office of the Clerk should be open on each of the following days: Monday 24 to Thursday 27 May, Tuesday 1 to Friday 4 June, Monday 7 to Friday 11 June and Monday 14 to Friday 18 June, should be taken now.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C703864", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sitting Days", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26596, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 613.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 613.0, "ID": 26596, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 627.0, "ContributionID": 703864, "EditedText": "I would like to repeat the point that I made earlier on a point of order, and I hope that the Government's Business Manager will respond. My understanding from the chamber office is that parliamentary questions will not be taken or read until 2 July, after which we go into recess. That means that legitimate questions will not be answered until September. Earlier I said August, but a quick calculation shows that they will not be answered until September. I do not think that that is acceptable, given that the Government is now in place, its members are performing their duties, and each minister has a role to fulfil. In the coalition agreement—a piece of research, although to be polite I should perhaps call it a document—we have had substantial changes to the Government's expenditure plans. Those plans were, as I said, previously given in \"Serving Scotland's Needs\", which was published at some expense and was rather nicely done. Earlier today, when I asked the First Minister about those substantial changes, he was—despite a glib attack on my position—unable to answer the question. Surely we in a Parliament that is supposed to be a legislator should have the right to an answer to this very legitimate question: if the Government is making public spending announcements—as it has done—why are we not being told, in a zero sum budget, where the money is coming from? There must be an unanswerable case for parliamentary questions to be lodged at this stage and to be answered within a fortnight. Furthermore, rule 5.8.1 of the standing orders provides: \"In proposing the business programme, the Parliamentary Bureau shall ensure that sufficient time is set aside— (a) between the beginning of May and the end of June each year for the consideration of financial proposals\". What plans does Mr McCabe have to fulfil that provision in 1999?", "EditedTextHTML": "I would like to repeat the point that I made earlier on a point of order, and I hope that the Government's Business Manager will respond.

My understanding from the chamber office is that parliamentary questions will not be taken or read until 2 July, after which we go into recess. That means that legitimate questions will not be answered until September. Earlier I said August, but a quick calculation shows that they will not be answered until September. I do not think that that is acceptable, given that the Government is now in place, its members are performing their duties, and each minister has a role to fulfil.

In the coalition agreement—a piece of research, although to be polite I should perhaps call it a document—we have had substantial changes to the Government's expenditure plans. Those plans were, as I said, previously given in \"Serving Scotland's Needs\", which was published at some expense and was rather nicely done. Earlier today, when I asked the First Minister about those substantial changes, he was—despite a glib attack on my position—unable to answer the question.

Surely we in a Parliament that is supposed to be a legislator should have the right to an answer to this very legitimate question: if the Government is making public spending announcements—as it has done—why are we not being told, in a zero sum budget, where the money is coming from? There must be an unanswerable case for parliamentary questions to be lodged at this stage and to be answered within a fortnight.

Furthermore, rule 5.8.1 of the standing orders provides:

\"In proposing the business programme, the Parliamentary Bureau shall ensure that sufficient time is set aside— (a) between the beginning of May and the end of June each year for the consideration of financial proposals\". What plans does Mr McCabe have to fulfil that provision in 1999?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1762E216P508C703867", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sitting Days", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26596, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 613.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 613.0, "ID": 26596, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Elder, Dorothy-Grace", "ID": 1762, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 636.0, "ContributionID": 703867, "EditedText": "It is absolutely ridiculous that this Parliament should be inaugurated and that we should then simply cut and run into what looks to me like a ridiculously long Westminster-style recess. Some of us will refuse to have more holidays than does an average member of the Scottish public. There is a lot of work to be got on with. As Mr Ewing said, what we have seen here in this Parliament is a dodgy deal that has been steamrollered through in England. Mr Blair has contrived what is virtually a one-party state. We will not permit that in Scotland. We have seen in the alliance between Labour and the Liberal Democrats what Roy Hattersley has described as an alliance between a Venus flytrap and a bluebottle. The SNP is not prepared to cut and run and leave major business unfinished, including the discussion of student fees. This Parliament should stay here to do the duty that it was put in place by the public to do.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is absolutely ridiculous that this Parliament should be inaugurated and that we should then simply cut and run into what looks to me like a ridiculously long Westminster-style recess. Some of us will refuse to have more holidays than does an average member of the Scottish public. There is a lot of work to be got on with.

As Mr Ewing said, what we have seen here in this Parliament is a dodgy deal that has been steamrollered through in England. Mr Blair has contrived what is virtually a one-party state. We will not permit that in Scotland. We have seen in the alliance between Labour and the Liberal Democrats what Roy Hattersley has described as an alliance between a Venus flytrap and a bluebottle. The SNP is not prepared to cut and run and leave major business unfinished, including the discussion of student fees. This Parliament should stay here to do the duty that it was put in place by the public to do.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C703868", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sitting Days", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26596, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 613.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 613.0, "ID": 26596, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan (Falkirk West): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 639.0, "ContributionID": 703868, "EditedText": "Would Mr McCabe be good enough to explain in his summing up the implications of his motion for our ability to put questions to the newly appointed members of the Scottish Executive? I understand from some unconfirmed media reports that, supposedly, as this Parliament does not as yet have legislative competence, we should not have the opportunity to ask questions of the Executive until such time as we officially have legislative competence. However, I would draw a distinction between the role of this Parliament as a legislature—making laws—and its role in bringing the Scottish Executive to account. It is important that the Executive is accountable to the people of Scotland through us, their elected representatives, right from its creation. Today, the members of the Scottish Executive have been approved by the Parliament. I understand that the Queen, as head of state, has also already signified her approval of the First Minister, so the Executive exists, whether or not we, as a Parliament, have legislative competence. We ought, therefore, from an early date to have maximum opportunity to put questions to the Executive. We may have to postpone deliberations on legislative measures, but I hope that we will be able to have debates and ministerial statements as well as the opportunity to put important questions on behalf of our constituents and the people of Scotland. Perhaps Mr McCabe will be good enough to address those points as well as the serious point raised by Dorothy-Grace Elder. Here we are, a newly formed Parliament, and we seem to be cutting and running already by going into a recess. I believe that the people out there would prefer to see us getting our sleeves rolled up, getting some work done and bringing the newly appointed Executive to account, which is the important and immediate role that we have to play.", "EditedTextHTML": "Would Mr McCabe be good enough to explain in his summing up the implications of his motion for our ability to put questions to the newly appointed members of the Scottish Executive?

I understand from some unconfirmed media reports that, supposedly, as this Parliament does not as yet have legislative competence, we should not have the opportunity to ask questions of the Executive until such time as we officially have legislative competence. However, I would draw a distinction between the role of this Parliament as a legislature—making laws—and its role in bringing the Scottish Executive to account. It is important that the Executive is accountable to the people of Scotland through us, their elected representatives, right from its creation.

Today, the members of the Scottish Executive have been approved by the Parliament. I understand that the Queen, as head of state, has also already signified her approval of the First Minister, so the Executive exists, whether or not we, as a Parliament, have legislative competence. We ought, therefore, from an early date to have maximum opportunity to put questions to the Executive. We may have to postpone deliberations on legislative measures, but I hope that we will be able to have debates and ministerial statements as well as the opportunity to put important questions on behalf of our constituents and the people of Scotland.

Perhaps Mr McCabe will be good enough to address those points as well as the serious point raised by Dorothy-Grace Elder. Here we are, a newly formed Parliament, and we seem to be cutting and running already by going into a recess. I believe that the people out there would prefer to see us getting our sleeves rolled up, getting some work done and bringing the newly appointed Executive to account, which is the important and immediate role that we have to play.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703869", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sitting Days", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26596, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 613.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 613.0, "ID": 26596, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 641.0, "ContributionID": 703869, "EditedText": "Before I call the next speaker, I should make it clear that we are not discussing the original motion lodged by Mr McCabe, but the revised motion, which does not deal with the summer recess. We have not got to that yet.", "EditedTextHTML": "Before I call the next speaker, I should make it clear that we are not discussing the original motion lodged by Mr McCabe, but the revised motion, which does not deal with the summer recess. We have not got to that yet.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C703871", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sitting Days", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26596, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 613.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 613.0, "ID": 26596, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Alex Salmond (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 647.0, "ContributionID": 703871, "EditedText": "That is true, but one of the duties of members of this Parliament is to hold the Executive to account and to ask questions of the relevant ministers. That is only part of a member's duties, but it is every bit as important as being in the constituency and carrying out constituency work. Members will find that their constituents will expect many of the things that come up in the constituency to be pursued with ministers and with the relevant responsible bodies. There are members of the Scottish Fishermen's Federation in the gallery today—Interruption.. It is perfectly in order to mention them. They are here because they expect this Parliament to have something to say about their immediate concern, to which Fergus Ewing referred. Not just Opposition members, but every member of this Parliament who is not a member of the Executive has a responsibility to hold the Executive to account. I welcome the redrafted motion, because it does not preclude the possibility of us having the opportunity, before the summer recess, to question the ministers who have been approved today. That is part of our democratic responsibility. Whether it be ministerial Mondeos or not, there are perks that come with ministerial office, and rightly so. The First Minister has been sworn in and he is entitled to the perks that allow him to pursue that office. One of the responsibilities of ministerial office is to be accountable to Parliament. It would not be correct for this Parliament not to have the opportunity to question the ministers who have been elected today and the First Minister before the summer recess. There is an obvious choice: either we find a method of having substantive questions before 1 July 1999 or, alternatively, we delay the recess until we have had at least one opportunity to question each minister who has been trusted by this legislature today. That is not just a point for the Opposition parties, but one for every member of this Chamber.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is true, but one of the duties of members of this Parliament is to hold the Executive to account and to ask questions of the relevant ministers. That is only part of a member's duties, but it is every bit as important as being in the constituency and carrying out constituency work.

Members will find that their constituents will expect many of the things that come up in the constituency to be pursued with ministers and with

the relevant responsible bodies. There are members of the Scottish Fishermen's Federation in the gallery today—[Interruption.]. It is perfectly in order to mention them. They are here because they expect this Parliament to have something to say about their immediate concern, to which Fergus Ewing referred. Not just Opposition members, but every member of this Parliament who is not a member of the Executive has a responsibility to hold the Executive to account. I welcome the redrafted motion, because it does not preclude the possibility of us having the opportunity, before the summer recess, to question the ministers who have been approved today. That is part of our democratic responsibility.

Whether it be ministerial Mondeos or not, there are perks that come with ministerial office, and rightly so. The First Minister has been sworn in and he is entitled to the perks that allow him to pursue that office. One of the responsibilities of ministerial office is to be accountable to Parliament. It would not be correct for this Parliament not to have the opportunity to question the ministers who have been elected today and the First Minister before the summer recess. There is an obvious choice: either we find a method of having substantive questions before 1 July 1999 or, alternatively, we delay the recess until we have had at least one opportunity to question each minister who has been trusted by this legislature today. That is not just a point for the Opposition parties, but one for every member of this Chamber.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703873", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sitting Days", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26596, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 613.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 613.0, "ID": 26596, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 652.0, "ContributionID": 703873, "EditedText": "No other members have asked to speak, so I give the floor to Tom McCabe to reply to the debate.", "EditedTextHTML": "No other members have asked to speak, so I give the floor to Tom McCabe to reply to the debate.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2228E151P202C703874", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sitting Days", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26596, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 613.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 613.0, "ID": 26596, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McCabe, Tom", "ID": 2228, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Tom McCabe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McCabe: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 655.0, "ContributionID": 703874, "EditedText": "On the first question, on a factual point, powers do not pass to ministers until 1 July 1999. Today, we have endorsed the ministers, but legal powers do not pass to them until 1 July 1999. I fully support and sympathise with many of the points made about the opportunity to ask substantive questions. So far, the legal advice that has been given to the Parliamentary Bureau is that that will not be possible until 1 July 1999. At that date, people can lodge questions and then there is a further requirement for those questions to lie on the table for eight days before the ministers answer them. I do not think that that advice has satisfied any representatives on the Parliamentary Bureau from any party, and the representatives will be interested in finding ways in which substantive discussions can take place in the weeks ahead and certainly prior to 1 July. I would stress, however, that the decision is not a whim of either the Executive or any other party within the Parliament. If the legal advice is that questions are not competent until such a date, I think it would be prudent, to say the least, to pay attention to that advice. With regard to the arrangements for finance in this year, the quotation from the standing orders is correct. However, in the first year of the Parliament special arrangements are in place and therefore there is no requirement in the time scale stated to deal with that issue at this time. With regard to the business motion and how far in advance Parliament will know exactly what is to be debated, the intention is that there will be a business motion presented each week—from memory it will be on a Wednesday—and, in a similar way to today, 30 minutes will be available to discuss that motion. With regard to committees, again, discussion is on-going in the Parliamentary Bureau. Systems of allocation are under discussion and the bureau will meet again tomorrow. We would hope, as early as possible, to be able to come forward to the Parliament and advance the question of committees both mandatory and subject. With regard to the comments relating to the summer recess, I well understand that there may be some confusion, given that the earlier motion was lodged not on behalf of any party but mistakenly, I think, by the office. Today the motion deals only with our business until mid-June. There has been no decision as yet on the starting date of the summer recess. There may be an opportunity to discuss environmental issues between now and July. Of course, that depends upon how that discussion is framed, and advice will be taken on that. On behalf of the Executive, I would stress that there is no desire to stifle debate within the Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "On the first question, on a factual point, powers do not pass to ministers until 1 July 1999. Today, we have endorsed the ministers, but legal powers do not pass to them until 1 July 1999.

I fully support and sympathise with many of the points made about the opportunity to ask substantive questions. So far, the legal advice that has been given to the Parliamentary Bureau is that that will not be possible until 1 July 1999. At that date, people can lodge questions and then there is a further requirement for those questions to lie on the table for eight days before the ministers answer them.

I do not think that that advice has satisfied any representatives on the Parliamentary Bureau from any party, and the representatives will be interested in finding ways in which substantive discussions can take place in the weeks ahead and certainly prior to 1 July. I would stress, however, that the decision is not a whim of either the Executive or any other party within the Parliament. If the legal advice is that questions are not competent until such a date, I think it would be prudent, to say the least, to pay attention to that advice.

With regard to the arrangements for finance in this year, the quotation from the standing orders is correct. However, in the first year of the Parliament special arrangements are in place and therefore there is no requirement in the time scale stated to deal with that issue at this time.

With regard to the business motion and how far in advance Parliament will know exactly what is to be debated, the intention is that there will be a business motion presented each week—from memory it will be on a Wednesday—and, in a similar way to today, 30 minutes will be available to discuss that motion.

With regard to committees, again, discussion is on-going in the Parliamentary Bureau. Systems of allocation are under discussion and the bureau will meet again tomorrow. We would hope, as early as possible, to be able to come forward to the Parliament and advance the question of committees both mandatory and subject.

With regard to the comments relating to the summer recess, I well understand that there may be some confusion, given that the earlier motion was lodged not on behalf of any party but mistakenly, I think, by the office. Today the motion deals only with our business until mid-June. There has been no decision as yet on the starting date of the summer recess.

There may be an opportunity to discuss environmental issues between now and July. Of course, that depends upon how that discussion is framed, and advice will be taken on that. On behalf of the Executive, I would stress that there is no desire to stifle debate within the Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C703875", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sitting Days", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26596, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 613.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 613.0, "ID": 26596, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 657.0, "ContributionID": 703875, "EditedText": "I would like to clarify two issues that are at stake. The first is debates before the Parliament that Mr Salmond, and others, raised, and the second is the putting down of questions for written answer. The practice in the House of Commons is that written answers can be tabled and will be replied to in the form of letters to the members concerned. As I understand it, answers are placed in the House of Commons library over the summer recess. That does not seem to be the case for this chamber. Is there a facility whereby we can lodge questions on 1 July or 2 July and they will be answered immediately, even though the Parliament is in recess?", "EditedTextHTML": "I would like to clarify two issues that are at stake. The first is debates before the Parliament that Mr Salmond, and others,

raised, and the second is the putting down of questions for written answer. The practice in the House of Commons is that written answers can be tabled and will be replied to in the form of letters to the members concerned. As I understand it, answers are placed in the House of Commons library over the summer recess. That does not seem to be the case for this chamber. Is there a facility whereby we can lodge questions on 1 July or 2 July and they will be answered immediately, even though the Parliament is in recess?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703881", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sitting Days", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26596, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 613.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 613.0, "ID": 26596, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 669.0, "ContributionID": 703881, "EditedText": "One of my responsibilities is to chair the Parliamentary Bureau. As Mr McCabe said, we are meeting tomorrow morning and we will have a second round of discussions on some of the issues that have been raised. We have had one meeting already, we will have another tomorrow, and we are looking as sympathetically as we can, given the advice that we are constrained by, at those points. However, it may be helpful if I tell the Parliament that we have already decided that whatever meetings there may be in the next couple of weeks, there will definitely be a full meeting of the Parliament on Tuesday 8 June. The reason for that is that we are bound, under the standing orders, to have elected the three mandatory committees within 21 days of our coming into being. That is how we know that there will definitely be a meeting on Tuesday 8 June. There may be other meetings before that, but that will be determined tomorrow. I hope that that is helpful and clear. It may also be helpful if I tell members that since I know that there is a meeting that day, I have decided that that should be the day when, as Presiding Officer, I invite you all to a reception in the evening in the Old Parliament Hall. It would be helpful if members put that in their diaries before they receive the invitations.", "EditedTextHTML": "One of my responsibilities is to chair the Parliamentary Bureau. As Mr McCabe said, we are meeting tomorrow morning and we will have a second round of discussions on some of the issues that have been raised. We have had one meeting already, we will have another tomorrow, and we are looking as sympathetically as we can, given the advice that we are constrained by, at those points.

However, it may be helpful if I tell the Parliament that we have already decided that whatever meetings there may be in the next couple of weeks, there will definitely be a full meeting of the Parliament on Tuesday 8 June. The reason for that is that we are bound, under the standing orders, to have elected the three mandatory committees within 21 days of our coming into being. That is how we know that there will definitely be a meeting on Tuesday 8 June. There may be other meetings before that, but that will be determined tomorrow. I hope that that is helpful and clear.

It may also be helpful if I tell members that since I know that there is a meeting that day, I have decided that that should be the day when, as Presiding Officer, I invite you all to a reception in the evening in the Old Parliament Hall. It would be helpful if members put that in their diaries before they receive the invitations.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703886", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sitting Days", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26596, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 613.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 613.0, "ID": 26596, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 678.0, "ContributionID": 703886, "EditedText": "Meeting closed at 16:20.", "EditedTextHTML": "Meeting closed at 16:20.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2110E214P424C703763", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gibson, Kenneth", "ID": 2110, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenneth Gibson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Gibson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 419.0, "ContributionID": 703763, "EditedText": "Yes, I am. I ended by asking the question to which I did not receive an answer.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes, I am. I ended by asking the question to which I did not receive an answer.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:18:48.0221515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2110E214P424C703758", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gibson, Kenneth", "ID": 2110, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenneth Gibson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Kenneth Gibson (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 409.0, "ContributionID": 703758, "EditedText": "Johann Lamont hit the nail squarely on the head when she talked about the ministerial team as being Labour's team, not a Labour-Liberal Democrat team. Over the next weeks and months we will hear more and more about Labour's team and Labour's policies, and less and less about the Liberal Democrats in that partnership. The saddest comment this morning came from Lord Watson, who told this chamber that the issue of tuition fees has now assumed a ridiculous level of importance. I have no doubt that those insensitive remarks will reverberate around the campuses of Scotland. This chamber must oppose any policy that prohibits the participation of individuals in higher education for purely financial reasons. Among the implications of such a policy that we have already seen are that applications to institutions of higher education are down 6 per cent this year, while one fifth of Scottish students now go without a meal every day because of financial hardship. Students forced to pay tuition fees without grants often have to take two or three part-time jobs, thereby displacing the less academically qualified from the job market and entrenching social exclusion. As we know, the Liberal Democrats are committed to abolishing tuition fees; unfortunately, not this millennium. I oppose the appointment of Mr Smith to the ministerial team. His constituency includes the University of St Andrews. I am sure that students of that worthy institution and others would like to know the answer to the following question: if the committee of inquiry opposes abolition, as we expect it will do, will Mr Smith, as deputy whip, act as enforcer and compel Liberal Democrat members to vote against their consciences, their manifestos, their activists and electors, in order to ensure the retention of tuition fees? I am willing to stand aside for Mr Smith to give a yes or no answer to that question.", "EditedTextHTML": "Johann Lamont hit the nail squarely on the head when she talked about the ministerial team as being Labour's team, not a Labour-Liberal Democrat team. Over the next weeks and months we will hear more and more about Labour's team and Labour's policies, and less and less about the Liberal Democrats in that partnership.

The saddest comment this morning came from Lord Watson, who told this chamber that the issue of tuition fees has now assumed a ridiculous level of importance. I have no doubt that those insensitive remarks will reverberate around the campuses of Scotland. This chamber must oppose any policy that prohibits the participation of individuals in higher education for purely financial reasons. Among the implications of such a policy that we have already seen are that applications to institutions of higher education are down 6 per cent this year, while one fifth of Scottish students now go without a meal every day because of financial hardship. Students forced to pay tuition fees without grants often have to take two or three part-time jobs, thereby displacing the less academically qualified from the job market and entrenching social exclusion.

As we know, the Liberal Democrats are committed to abolishing tuition fees; unfortunately, not this millennium. I oppose the appointment of Mr Smith to the ministerial team. His constituency includes the University of St Andrews. I am sure that students of that worthy institution and others would like to know the answer to the following question: if the committee of inquiry opposes abolition, as we expect it will do, will Mr Smith, as deputy whip, act as enforcer and compel Liberal Democrat members to vote against their consciences, their manifestos, their activists and electors, in order to ensure the retention of tuition fees? I am willing to stand aside for Mr Smith to give a yes or no answer to that question.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:18:48.0221515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C703677", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 241.0, "ContributionID": 703677, "EditedText": "Mr Macdonald was just as embarrassed as Mr Watson was by the question from my colleague Mr Adam about what the Labour party had given up to ensure the partnership agreement. With a number of others who are here I was in London on Monday evening for the incapacity benefit vote. There was no embarrassment displayed then by Labour MPs who were, frankly, doing cartwheels along the lobbies of the House of Commons because of what had been achieved by the Labour party at the expense of the Liberal Democrats. Mr Adam's question was a key moment in the debate. The other key moment in the debate was Mr Lyon's contribution, and I am glad to see that he has come back into the chamber. He told us that the Liberal Democrats will be making up their own minds about tuition fees in due course. I am sorry, but I still cannot reconcile that statement with remarks on the record by Mr McLeish that quite clearly say that the two parties will come to an agreement within the coalition Executive on what the line is on tuition fees and that both parliamentary parties will be bound by it. Those two points of view are not compatible.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Macdonald was just as embarrassed as Mr Watson was by the question from my colleague Mr Adam about what the Labour party had given up to ensure the partnership agreement. With a number of others who are here I was in London on Monday evening for the incapacity benefit vote. There was no embarrassment displayed then by Labour MPs who were, frankly, doing cartwheels along the lobbies of the House of Commons because of what had been achieved by the Labour party at the expense of the Liberal Democrats.

Mr Adam's question was a key moment in the debate. The other key moment in the debate was Mr Lyon's contribution, and I am glad to see that he has come back into the chamber. He told us that the Liberal Democrats will be making up their own minds about tuition fees in due course. I am sorry, but I still cannot reconcile that statement with remarks on the record by Mr McLeish that quite clearly say that the two parties will come to an agreement within the coalition Executive on what the line is on tuition fees and that both parliamentary parties will be bound by it. Those two points of view are not compatible.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:16:20.3819228+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2110E214P424C703588", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gibson, Kenneth", "ID": 2110, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenneth Gibson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Kenneth Gibson (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 45.0, "ContributionID": 703588, "EditedText": "Is it not the case that policies should be based on principles other than the speaker's—", "EditedTextHTML": "Is it not the case that policies should be based on principles other than the speaker's—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:14:54.5772891+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C703601", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 71.0, "ContributionID": 703601, "EditedText": "I think that the SNP's performance and achievement is clear from the outcome of the election. This Parliament, which remains within the United Kingdom constitution, is an acknowledgement of the support given to the political parties. Equally, this Parliament was elected to deliver to the people of Scotland the abolition of tuition fees, but the actions of some members since 6 May have not contributed to the delivery of that policy commitment. That is the key point that emerges from this debate. Mr McLeish is to be supported in his work by Nicol Stephen, who is the Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning. Over the past 24 hours, a number of remarks have been made that show the difficulties that this coalition Administration will have to overcome if they are to deliver on the partnership document, irrespective of whether that document reflects any of the aspirations of the people of Scotland. The coalition agreement has failed to recognise what the Liberal Democrat manifesto said about beef on the bone. It has failed to deliver any real change to the privatisation of public services and it has failed to abolish tolls on the Skye bridge. The coalition Administration has cast aside all those things. We must focus the debate on tuition fees—that is the fundamental point about the way in which this coalition has been constructed. On Sunday, Mr Ross Finnie said that we would be able to vote freely according to our views on the report. The next day, it was reported that Mr McLeish had said that, from the point at which the report was presented, \"collective cabinet responsibility holds and we would anticipate that both parliamentary groups would support the set of recommendations that we would put to the parliament.\" Unless I am mistaken, there is a contradiction between those two arguments. My colleague Mr Salmond asked the First Minister whether there would be a free vote when the report was produced. I do not want to be uncharitable to the First Minister—I am never uncharitable to him— but it was quite clear from his answer that he had dodged Mr Salmond's question. There is no free vote. Mr McLeish makes the position absolutely clear: when the independent commission reports on tuition fees, the Executive will come to a conclusion about that report and the two coalition partners will adhere to that conclusion. Somewhere along the line there is a fundamental division of opinion at the heart of the coalition agreement. Will Liberal Democrat members be able to apply independent discretion when the report is produced? It sounds as though they will not. On Radio Scotland this morning, we heard that, in the foreword to the partnership document, the First Minister and Mr Wallace had talked about the ability to deliver stable government. At the heart of this coalition agreement is an issue on which the Scottish election turned and a fundamental disagreement about the rights of the coalition partners in the Administration. The Administration is not stable. It cannot deliverwhat the Scottish people voted for on 6 May. On 17 May, The Scotsman reported that Mr McLeish had said: \"At this stage there are no cracks in the coalition.\"Today's debate might turn on this question: when is a crack not a crack? A crack is not a crack when it is a yawning chasm between the positions of the two ministers who are to be appointed. We need to know today what this coalition Administration will actually deliver in relation to tuition fees, because clarity on that issue was sadly lacking in what was said over the weekend. The \"Partnership for Scotland\" document leads the Scottish people to a conclusion for which they did not vote on 6 May. The appointment of Mr McLeish should not be approved.", "EditedTextHTML": "I think that the SNP's performance and achievement is clear from the outcome of the election. This Parliament, which remains within the United Kingdom constitution, is an acknowledgement of the support given to the political parties. Equally, this Parliament was elected to deliver to the people of Scotland the abolition of tuition fees, but the actions of some members since 6 May have not contributed to the delivery of that policy commitment. That is the key point that emerges from this debate.

Mr McLeish is to be supported in his work by Nicol Stephen, who is the Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning. Over the past 24 hours, a number of remarks have been made that show the difficulties that this coalition Administration will have to overcome if they are to deliver on the partnership document, irrespective of whether that document reflects any of the aspirations of the people of Scotland.

The coalition agreement has failed to recognise what the Liberal Democrat manifesto said about beef on the bone. It has failed to deliver any real change to the privatisation of public services and it has failed to abolish tolls on the Skye bridge. The coalition Administration has cast aside all those things.

We must focus the debate on tuition fees—that is the fundamental point about the way in which this coalition has been constructed. On Sunday, Mr Ross Finnie said that we would be able to vote freely according to our views on the report. The next day, it was reported that Mr McLeish had said that, from the point at which the report was presented,

\"collective cabinet responsibility holds and we would anticipate that both parliamentary groups would support the set of recommendations that we would put to the parliament.\"

Unless I am mistaken, there is a contradiction between those two arguments. My colleague Mr Salmond asked the First Minister whether there would be a free vote when the report was produced. I do not want to be uncharitable to the First Minister—I am never uncharitable to him— but it was quite clear from his answer that he had dodged Mr Salmond's question. There is no free vote. Mr McLeish makes the position absolutely clear: when the independent commission reports on tuition fees, the Executive will come to a conclusion about that report and the two coalition partners will adhere to that conclusion.

Somewhere along the line there is a fundamental division of opinion at the heart of the coalition agreement. Will Liberal Democrat members be able to apply independent discretion when the report is produced? It sounds as though they will not.

On Radio Scotland this morning, we heard that, in the foreword to the partnership document, the First Minister and Mr Wallace had talked about the ability to deliver stable government. At the heart of this coalition agreement is an issue on which the Scottish election turned and a fundamental disagreement about the rights of the coalition partners in the Administration.

The Administration is not stable. It cannot deliver

what the Scottish people voted for on 6 May. On 17 May, The Scotsman reported that Mr McLeish had said:

\"At this stage there are no cracks in the coalition.\"

Today's debate might turn on this question: when is a crack not a crack? A crack is not a crack when it is a yawning chasm between the positions of the two ministers who are to be appointed.

We need to know today what this coalition Administration will actually deliver in relation to tuition fees, because clarity on that issue was sadly lacking in what was said over the weekend. The \"Partnership for Scotland\" document leads the Scottish people to a conclusion for which they did not vote on 6 May. The appointment of Mr McLeish should not be approved.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:14:54.5772891+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C703575", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 19.0, "ContributionID": 703575, "EditedText": "It has certainly taken a long time to get to the end of that passage—it seemed to be the longest on earth. I accept the points the First Minister is making in relation to the commentary by the AUT and the Committee of Scottish Higher Education Principals and other organisations, but there was one important group of people that he missed out of his explanation of the body of opinion, and that is the electorate. By voting for the Conservative party, the Scottish National party, the Liberal Democrats and the three independent members, the electorate said quite clearly that it did not want tuition fees. Where is the electorate in this cosy coalition between the Labour party and the Liberal Democrats?", "EditedTextHTML": "It has certainly taken a long time to get to the end of that passage—it seemed to be the longest on earth. I accept the points the First Minister is making in relation to the commentary by the AUT and the Committee of Scottish Higher Education Principals and other organisations, but there was one important group of people that he missed out of his explanation of the body of opinion, and that is the electorate. By voting for the Conservative party, the Scottish National party, the Liberal Democrats and the three independent members, the electorate said quite clearly that it did not want tuition fees. Where is the electorate in this cosy coalition between the Labour party and the Liberal Democrats?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:13:41.211281+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C703574", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 17.0, "ContributionID": 703574, "EditedText": "I will finish this passage before I give way. All those organisations argue that case because they fear that if we snatch at the decision, if we rush to judgment, we may attack the wrong target and end up with the wrong result. We must define our objectives. John Swinney—to whom I will give way in a minute—will surely agree that we must consider access, the number of places and the most effective way of broadening the student base of higher education and that we must deal with the future financial consequences of any changes that we introduce. Given that, it is perfectly honourable, good practice and good sense for the Parliament to say that we will consider these things properly and that we will get impartial advice before we take that decision. I will be interested to hear the attack that I presume is about to come because I would have thought that a cautious man such as Mr Swinney would take the view that that was proper preparation for decision making.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will finish this passage before I give way.

All those organisations argue that case because they fear that if we snatch at the decision, if we rush to judgment, we may attack the wrong target and end up with the wrong result. We must define our objectives. John Swinney—to whom I will give way in a minute—will surely agree that we must consider access, the number of places and the most effective way of broadening the student base of higher education and that we must deal with the future financial consequences of any changes that we introduce. Given that, it is perfectly honourable, good practice and good sense for the Parliament to say that we will consider these things properly and that we will get impartial advice before we take that decision. I will be interested to hear the attack that I presume is about to come because I would have thought that a cautious man such as Mr Swinney would take the view that that was proper preparation for decision making.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C703579", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 27.0, "ContributionID": 703579, "EditedText": "All right, I will let him in— very quickly.", "EditedTextHTML": "All right, I will let him in— very quickly.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C703580", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 29.0, "ContributionID": 703580, "EditedText": "Does the First Minister acknowledge that the majority of the Scottish electorate voted against tuition fees? Do Liberal members of the Parliament, as far as he is aware, have a free vote after the commission of inquiry has reported?", "EditedTextHTML": "Does the First Minister acknowledge that the majority of the Scottish electorate voted against tuition fees? Do Liberal members of the Parliament, as far as he is aware, have a free vote after the commission of inquiry has reported?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C703581", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 31.0, "ContributionID": 703581, "EditedText": "I recognise that a majority of votes were cast for parties that had that as one issue in their manifesto. That is very different from saying that it was a one-issue election or that such a simple connection can be made. I know that Mr Salmond is good at making oversimple connections, but I think that that is a dangerous one for him to make. What we must do is see the outcome of the inquiry, assuming the Parliament agrees to set it up, and make proper judgments on that basis. The second point I want to address about the coalition is whether coalition is in itself in some way inherently unfair and wicked—", "EditedTextHTML": "I recognise that a majority of votes were cast for parties that had that as one issue in their manifesto. That is very different from saying that it was a one-issue election or that such a simple connection can be made. I know that Mr Salmond is good at making oversimple connections, but I think that that is a dangerous one for him to make. What we must do is see the outcome of the inquiry, assuming the Parliament agrees to set it up, and make proper judgments on that basis.

The second point I want to address about the coalition is whether coalition is in itself in some way inherently unfair and wicked—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C703582", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 33.0, "ContributionID": 703582, "EditedText": "And a free vote?", "EditedTextHTML": "And a free vote?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C703584", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 37.0, "ContributionID": 703584, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C703585", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 39.0, "ContributionID": 703585, "EditedText": "I am not going to let Mr Salmond in again. What we intend is that the Executive will consider the results of the inquiry, as will everyone else. My intention, my expectation and my hope is that a collective decision will emerge from doing that, but we will all have to wait and see. Let me move on.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am not going to let Mr Salmond in again. What we intend is that the Executive will consider the results of the inquiry, as will everyone else. My intention, my expectation and my hope is that a collective decision will emerge from doing that, but we will all have to wait and see. Let me move on.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703592", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 53.0, "ContributionID": 703592, "EditedText": "It might help members if I make it clear that the time limits that I am suggesting for speeches will not mean, as in the House of Commons, cutting people off mid- sentence at the end of the allotted time. I will be flexible, and will take account of interventions that a member has taken during a speech. Flexibility is limited, but it is there. I would like members formally to move amendment S1M-4.1 in Mr McLetchie's name, and amendment S1M-4.3 in Mr Swinney's name, so that we can have a wide debate.", "EditedTextHTML": "It might help members if I make it clear that the time limits that I am suggesting for speeches will not mean, as in the House of Commons, cutting people off mid- sentence at the end of the allotted time. I will be flexible, and will take account of interventions that a member has taken during a speech. Flexibility is limited, but it is there.

I would like members formally to move amendment S1M-4.1 in Mr McLetchie's name, and amendment S1M-4.3 in Mr Swinney's name, so that we can have a wide debate.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703594", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 56.0, "ContributionID": 703594, "EditedText": "S1M-4.3, to leave out \"Henry McLeish\".— Michael Russell.", "EditedTextHTML": "S1M-4.3, to leave out \"Henry McLeish\".— [Michael Russell.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C703598", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 64.0, "ContributionID": 703598, "EditedText": "There is a distinction between tuition fees and maintenance for students while they are studying. There is free school education—nursery, primary and secondary—but nobody is suggesting that the Government should pay maintenance awards to parents for looking after their children. It is not as though this Government could not afford to lose a couple of ministers. Losing Jim Wallace and Ross Finnie would help to shrink a top-heavy Administration. Let us consider the numbers. There is the new Secretary of State for Scotland—and it would be churlish not to congratulate Dr Reid on his appointment to that distinguished office—and his two junior ministers. There is the new post of Advocate General, and we congratulate Lynda Clark on her appointment to that post. Then there is the First Minister and his team. Altogether, some 24 ministers are carrying out the work that, before the general election, was done by just five ministers. There are now nearly five times as many ministers as there were. Frankly, that is an outrage. It is an explosion of bureaucracy and red tape, all of which must be paid for by the taxpayer. Does anybody seriously think that the money to pay for all those ministers and their entourage of special advisers, spin doctors, secretaries, chauffeurs and so on, could not have been better spent on the education of our young people? Some of that money could have been put towards funding the abolition of tuition fees for higher education. I propose that we strike a blow for smaller, smarter government in Scotland by putting this bloated Administration on a diet. That means cutting out Jim Wallace and Ross Finnie. They are too rich, indigestible and unpalatable. They deserve no less, for they are guilty of perpetrating a massive fraud on the people of Scotland at the election. Their masters will no doubt save them today, but the people will judge them later.", "EditedTextHTML": "There is a distinction between tuition fees and maintenance for students while they are studying. There is free school education—nursery, primary and secondary—but nobody is suggesting that the Government should pay maintenance awards to parents for looking after their children.

It is not as though this Government could not afford to lose a couple of ministers. Losing Jim Wallace and Ross Finnie would help to shrink a top-heavy Administration.

Let us consider the numbers. There is the new Secretary of State for Scotland—and it would be churlish not to congratulate Dr Reid on his appointment to that distinguished office—and his two junior ministers. There is the new post of Advocate General, and we congratulate Lynda Clark on her appointment to that post. Then there is the First Minister and his team. Altogether, some 24 ministers are carrying out the work that, before the general election, was done by just five ministers. There are now nearly five times as many ministers as there were.

Frankly, that is an outrage. It is an explosion of bureaucracy and red tape, all of which must be paid for by the taxpayer. Does anybody seriously think that the money to pay for all those ministers and their entourage of special advisers, spin doctors, secretaries, chauffeurs and so on, could not have been better spent on the education of our young people? Some of that money could have been put towards funding the abolition of tuition fees for higher education.

I propose that we strike a blow for smaller, smarter government in Scotland by putting this bloated Administration on a diet. That means cutting out Jim Wallace and Ross Finnie. They are too rich, indigestible and unpalatable. They deserve no less, for they are guilty of perpetrating a massive fraud on the people of Scotland at the election. Their masters will no doubt save them today, but the people will judge them later.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C703602", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon (Argyll and Bute) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 74.0, "ContributionID": 703602, "EditedText": "During the election campaign, we heard much about the new style of politics that would pervade our new Parliament. We heard mention of greater consensus or even compromise—that dirty word of politics. We heard that there would be more consultation with the people before decisions were taken. Above all, the pledge that was given to the people of Scotland was that this Parliament would be different from Westminster. The perception so far may be that this Parliament is no different from Westminster, but the reality is that it is quite different. We have proportional representation, which delivered 129 of us into this chamber. PR has made a difference. It has meant that, instead of another humiliating defeat for our friends in Mr McLetchie's party, that party has 18 MSPs. The reality of PR means that, instead of seven first-past-the-post members for Mr Salmond's party, the SNP has the moderate success of some 35 members. The biggest difference has been that PR has meant that, unlike Westminster, there is no winner takes all—no party was given a mandate to deliver the whole of its manifesto. That means that every party in this chamber is a minority. To deliver stable government for Scotland, compromises had to be made between two parties. I am not ashamed of the word compromise; it means that two parties have come together to deliver the partnership document for the Scottish people. We have heard much about the important issue of tuition fees. Liberal Democrats believe that the right way in which to proceed is for us to go out to consultation and for the committee of inquiry to take the views of everyone involved. All the lobbying that I have had on the issue shows that that is what most of the major institutions involved want. When the time comes and the inquiry reports, our position—that tuition fees should be abandoned—will have been made clear.", "EditedTextHTML": "During the election campaign, we heard much about the new style of politics that would pervade our new Parliament. We heard mention of greater consensus or even compromise—that dirty word of politics. We heard that there would be more consultation with the people before decisions were taken. Above all, the pledge that was given to the people of Scotland was that this Parliament would be different from Westminster.

The perception so far may be that this Parliament is no different from Westminster, but the reality is that it is quite different. We have proportional representation, which delivered 129 of us into this chamber. PR has made a difference. It has meant that, instead of another humiliating defeat for our friends in Mr McLetchie's party, that party has 18 MSPs. The reality of PR means that, instead of seven first-past-the-post members for Mr Salmond's party, the SNP has the moderate success of some 35 members.

The biggest difference has been that PR has meant that, unlike Westminster, there is no winner takes all—no party was given a mandate to deliver the whole of its manifesto. That means that every party in this chamber is a minority. To deliver stable government for Scotland, compromises had to be made between two parties. I am not ashamed of the word compromise; it means that two parties have come together to deliver the partnership document for the Scottish people.

We have heard much about the important issue of tuition fees. Liberal Democrats believe that the right way in which to proceed is for us to go out to consultation and for the committee of inquiry to take the views of everyone involved. All the lobbying that I have had on the issue shows that that is what most of the major institutions involved want. When the time comes and the inquiry reports, our position—that tuition fees should be abandoned—will have been made clear.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2003E169P302C703606", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lyon, George", "ID": 2003, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Argyll and Bute" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "George Lyon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "George Lyon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 82.0, "ContributionID": 703606, "EditedText": "As I stated clearly, I will make up my mind and take into consideration what is said in the inquiry before we vote on the subject. Our position is very clear; we are still opposed to tuition fees and we will be able to make up our own minds when the day comes. Interruption.", "EditedTextHTML": "As I stated clearly, I will make up my mind and take into consideration what is said in the inquiry before we vote on the subject. Our position is very clear; we are still opposed to tuition fees and we will be able to make up our own minds when the day comes. [Interruption.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2123E103P242C703612", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Chisholm, Malcolm", "ID": 2123, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Edinburgh North and Leith" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Malcolm Chisholm", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Malcolm Chisholm: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 96.0, "ContributionID": 703612, "EditedText": "I am sorry; I was not aware of the time factor. Committees will be fundamental to the Parliament, as will be the involvement of the wider public. Not having time to go into those points in more detail, I will just say that the way in which we are approaching tuition fees seems to be a good example of the new politics working. We will involve people from outside and we will have a comprehensive debate in the chamber. That is a more sophisticated view of politics than the simplistic approach of individual party manifestos.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry; I was not aware of the time factor.

Committees will be fundamental to the Parliament, as will be the involvement of the wider public. Not having time to go into those points in more detail, I will just say that the way in which we are approaching tuition fees seems to be a good example of the new politics working. We will involve people from outside and we will have a comprehensive debate in the chamber. That is a more sophisticated view of politics than the simplistic approach of individual party manifestos.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1990E181P340C703625", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Robson, Euan", "ID": 1990, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Roxburgh and Berwickshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Euan Robson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Euan Robson (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD) rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 125.0, "ContributionID": 703625, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C703614", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Brian Monteith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 101.0, "ContributionID": 703614, "EditedText": "I would like to explain why we are proposing that the names of James Wallace and Ross Finnie be deleted and not those of, for instance, Henry McLeish or Susan Deacon. It is simple. Our amendment is about the conduct of the election campaign, before and after the vote. When we launched our policy on tuition fees, proposing to introduce a scheme that would, effectively, abolish them, it was clear that other parties had similar policies. The nationalists and the Liberal Democrats launched their policies; it was clear to those who now sit here and the electorate that those parties were committed to the effective abolition of tuition fees. That was until Mr Wallace's wobbly weekend, when, during an interview, the fact that negotiations on tuition fees might be a part of coalition discussions became a possibility. It was then incumbent on those taking part in the campaign to pin Mr Wallace down. There followed a week of campaigning in which parties sought to ascertain what he meant. I attended a number of meetings and participated in programmes, and I well remember the Liberal Democrat spokesman intervening while Nicola Sturgeon was speaking, to assure us that there was no way that tuition fees would be negotiated on. I remind Mr Wallace of his words:\"I'm not going to trade principles for a ministerial Mondeo. I'm not to be bought at any price.\" It could not be clearer than that. He also said:\"Tuition fees are dead as of next Friday. The people of Scotland have made it non-negotiable.\" He was talking about the Friday after the election. Those were the words that Mr Wallace used to clarify the situation, just in case there was a scintilla of doubt about what he had said in that interview. Nicol Stephen came to Mr Wallace's rescue. He had said previously that tuition fees would go, and he is on record as saying: \"If Scotland gets the opportunity to blaze a trail for the rest of the UK by abolishing tuition fees, we should grab it.\" We waited in expectation, knowing that on that Friday tuition fees would go if the Liberal Democrats joined the nationalists and the Tories, but the Liberal Democrats decided that they could have an inquiry, buy time and possibly ensure that they could take part in a coalition deal, even though in previous election material they said: \"We now have clear and indisputable evidence of the damage that Labour's tuition fees have done to Scottish education . . . Abolishing tuition fees would instantly transform the situation.\" They had no doubts; they had already made up their mind. Nevertheless, when it came to the aftermath of the election it was time to negotiate, to put tuition fees on the table and to talk about having a committee of inquiry that could give them the opportunity to ditch their promises later.", "EditedTextHTML": "I would like to explain why we are proposing that the names of James Wallace and Ross Finnie be deleted and not those of, for instance, Henry McLeish or Susan Deacon. It is simple. Our amendment is about the conduct of the election campaign, before and after the vote.

When we launched our policy on tuition fees, proposing to introduce a scheme that would, effectively, abolish them, it was clear that other parties had similar policies. The nationalists and the Liberal Democrats launched their policies; it was clear to those who now sit here and the electorate that those parties were committed to the effective abolition of tuition fees. That was until Mr Wallace's wobbly weekend, when, during an interview, the fact that negotiations on tuition fees might be a part of coalition discussions became a possibility. It was then incumbent on those taking part in the campaign to pin Mr Wallace down. There followed a week of campaigning in which parties sought to ascertain what he meant. I attended a number of meetings and participated in programmes, and I well remember the Liberal Democrat spokesman intervening while Nicola Sturgeon was speaking, to assure us that there was no way that tuition fees would be negotiated on.

I remind Mr Wallace of his words:

\"I'm not going to trade principles for a ministerial Mondeo. I'm not to be bought at any price.\"

It could not be clearer than that. He also said:

\"Tuition fees are dead as of next Friday. The people of Scotland have made it non-negotiable.\"

He was talking about the Friday after the election. Those were the words that Mr Wallace used to clarify the situation, just in case there was a scintilla of doubt about what he had said in that interview.

Nicol Stephen came to Mr Wallace's rescue. He had said previously that tuition fees would go, and he is on record as saying:

\"If Scotland gets the opportunity to blaze a trail for the rest of the UK by abolishing tuition fees, we should grab it.\"

We waited in expectation, knowing that on that Friday tuition fees would go if the Liberal Democrats joined the nationalists and the Tories, but the Liberal Democrats decided that they could have an inquiry, buy time and possibly ensure that they could take part in a coalition deal, even though in previous election material they said:

\"We now have clear and indisputable evidence of the damage that Labour's tuition fees have done to Scottish education . . . Abolishing tuition fees would instantly transform the situation.\"

They had no doubts; they had already made up their mind. Nevertheless, when it came to the aftermath of the election it was time to negotiate, to put tuition fees on the table and to talk about having a committee of inquiry that could give them the opportunity to ditch their promises later.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2140E187P335C703615", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Rumbles, Mike", "ID": 2140, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Rumbles", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Mike Rumbles (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 103.0, "ContributionID": 703615, "EditedText": "Mr Monteith has obviously not read the document. I want to make one point quite clear and, for his education, I will read it for him: \"The Liberal Democrats stood on a manifesto commitment to abolish tuition fees. The Liberal Democrats have maintained their position on it. The partnership agreement does not mean abandonment of that position.\"", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Monteith has obviously not read the document. I want to make one point quite clear and, for his education, I will read it for him:

\"The Liberal Democrats stood on a manifesto commitment to abolish tuition fees. The Liberal Democrats

have maintained their position on it. The partnership agreement does not mean abandonment of that position.\"

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1930E59P76C703616", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Monteith, Mr Brian", "ID": 1930, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Monteith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Monteith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 105.0, "ContributionID": 703616, "EditedText": "Can the gentleman tell me how he will vote when the inquiry is published and it recommends that tuition fees should stay in place? Can the gentleman tell me how all the other members of the Liberal Democrat party will vote? No? There we are. The point that is clear is that the Liberal Democrats went into the election with a clear commitment. They have brought shame not just to themselves, but to the whole idea of what the Parliament could do. The people who will be most hurt by that are those who voted for the Liberal Democrats, many of whom left the Labour party in order to do so. Those people put their trust in the Liberal Democrats and they will feel let down. Some people may think that we need to abolish tuition fees and that I should be happy to see the Liberal Democrat party in difficulty over the issue. That is not the point. It is clear to me that the Liberal Democrat party has brought a greater cynicism towards all politicians, not just to itself. It has brought shame to all members of the Parliament and that is why it is important that we vote for the removal of James Wallace and Ross Finnie from the list of ministers. They do not stand for the things that they said that they would stand for, but are working against them. The Scottish people need to see that the Scottish Parliament takes notice of that and will remove them from the list of ministers. We should support the amendment.", "EditedTextHTML": "Can the gentleman tell me how he will vote when the inquiry is published and it recommends that tuition fees should stay in place? Can the gentleman tell me how all the other members of the Liberal Democrat party will vote? No? There we are. The point that is clear is that the Liberal Democrats went into the election with a clear commitment. They have brought shame not just to themselves, but to the whole idea of what the Parliament could do. The people who will be most hurt by that are those who voted for the Liberal Democrats, many of whom left the Labour party in order to do so. Those people put their trust in the Liberal Democrats and they will feel let down.

Some people may think that we need to abolish tuition fees and that I should be happy to see the Liberal Democrat party in difficulty over the issue. That is not the point. It is clear to me that the Liberal Democrat party has brought a greater cynicism towards all politicians, not just to itself. It has brought shame to all members of the Parliament and that is why it is important that we vote for the removal of James Wallace and Ross Finnie from the list of ministers. They do not stand for the things that they said that they would stand for, but are working against them. The Scottish people need to see that the Scottish Parliament takes notice of that and will remove them from the list of ministers. We should support the amendment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2142E142P230C703617", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Watson, Mike", "ID": 2142, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Cathcart" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mike Watson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mike Watson (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 108.0, "ContributionID": 703617, "EditedText": "I am staggered by those remarks and by the fact that David McLetchie has lodged the amendment. Such comments come ill from Conservatives. Let us be absolutely clear on the matter. The Conservatives absolutely refuse to recognise the new political climate in Scotland. However, if it were not for that new political climate, those seats would all be empty—that is not strictly true; the seats would be filled, but not by Conservatives. There has to be a new understanding of the position that we are in. I also address my remarks to Roseanna Cunningham, although I see that she has not stayed for the rest of the debate. None the less, the question is—as Malcolm Chisholm has already mentioned—what the realistic expectation was when the election took place on 6 May. Was the expectation that one party would have a majority? I do not think so. The negotiations that were undertaken in the immediate post-election period were utterly understandable and reasonable. Those negotiations have produced what we hope will be a stable Government. What was the alternative to that? It was a political coconut-shy, based on a party that had 39 per cent of the vote.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am staggered by those remarks and by the fact that David McLetchie has lodged the amendment. Such comments come ill from Conservatives. Let us be absolutely clear on the matter. The Conservatives absolutely refuse to recognise the new political climate in Scotland. However, if it were not for that new political climate, those seats would all be empty—that is not strictly true; the seats would be filled, but not by Conservatives. There has to be a new understanding of the position that we are in.

I also address my remarks to Roseanna Cunningham, although I see that she has not stayed for the rest of the debate. None the less, the question is—as Malcolm Chisholm has already mentioned—what the realistic expectation was when the election took place on 6 May. Was the expectation that one party would have a majority? I do not think so. The negotiations that were undertaken in the immediate post-election period were utterly understandable and reasonable. Those negotiations have produced what we hope will be a stable Government. What was the alternative to that? It was a political coconut-shy, based on a party that had 39 per cent of the vote.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1926E190P479C703618", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Adam, Brian", "ID": 1926, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Adam", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Brian Adam (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 110.0, "ContributionID": 703618, "EditedText": "In light of the new coalition arrangement, will Mr Watson tell us precisely what the Labour party has given up from its manifesto in order to accommodate the Liberal Democrat party? We are well aware of what the Liberal Democrat party has given up to accommodate the Labour party, but what has the Labour party given up?", "EditedTextHTML": "In light of the new coalition arrangement, will Mr Watson tell us precisely what the Labour party has given up from its manifesto in order to accommodate the Liberal Democrat party? We are well aware of what the Liberal Democrat party has given up to accommodate the Labour party, but what has the Labour party given up?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1854E38P164C703631", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Godman, Trish", "ID": 1854, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Renfrewshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Trish Godman", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Trish Godman: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 138.0, "ContributionID": 703631, "EditedText": "I have no desire to give way. The wrecking tactics that we have seen today reinforce the need for stability. Mr McLetchie's amendment seeks to isolate one part of the partnership, but that will not work. The partnership agreement was signed in service to the people of Scotland, and it should not be broken in the name of narrow political advantage. Jim Wallace will bring forward freedom of information legislation to entrench the new Scottish Parliament as being open and democratic. Those who complain of so-called deals done behind closed doors—when in fact \"Partnership for Scotland\" has been published and is the subject of debate today—should perhaps reflect that as a result of such work, Jim Wallace will lead the introduction of freedom of information legislation in this new Parliament. The people of Scotland want a Parliament that can deliver on the issues that each and every one of us took around the doors for the four or five weeks of the election campaign: better schools, colleges and universities, a national health service that delivers for patients, safer communities and warm and decent homes. This week's \"Partnership for Scotland\" agreement provides the stability necessary to achieve those aims. We should not let political opportunists damage the new politics before they take root. Our aim through the partnership is to improve the quality of life for Scottish people and to achieve nothing less than equality and justice for every man, woman and child in Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have no desire to give way. The wrecking tactics that we have seen today reinforce the need for stability. Mr McLetchie's amendment seeks to isolate one part of the partnership, but that will not work. The partnership agreement was signed in service to the people of Scotland, and it should not be broken in the name of narrow political advantage.

Jim Wallace will bring forward freedom of information legislation to entrench the new Scottish Parliament as being open and democratic. Those who complain of so-called deals done behind closed doors—when in fact \"Partnership for Scotland\" has been published and is the subject of debate today—should perhaps reflect that as a result of such work, Jim Wallace will lead the introduction of freedom of information legislation in this new Parliament.

The people of Scotland want a Parliament that can deliver on the issues that each and every one of us took around the doors for the four or five weeks of the election campaign: better schools, colleges and universities, a national health service that delivers for patients, safer communities and warm and decent homes.

This week's \"Partnership for Scotland\" agreement provides the stability necessary to achieve those aims. We should not let political opportunists damage the new politics before they take root. Our aim through the partnership is to improve the quality of life for Scottish people and to achieve nothing less than equality and justice for every man, woman and child in Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C703633", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Richard Simpson (Ochil) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 143.0, "ContributionID": 703633, "EditedText": "Mary Scanlon cannot have been listening to the First Minister's speech. He mentioned a most interesting statistic that may help to raise the debate from its juvenile level, at which I am appalled. Given that 53 per cent of the population had no tuition fees to pay, can Mary Scanlon mention a single parent or any unemployed person who has had to pay tuition fees?", "EditedTextHTML": "Mary Scanlon cannot have been listening to the First Minister's speech. He mentioned a most interesting statistic that may help to raise the debate from its juvenile level, at which I am appalled. Given that 53 per cent of the population had no tuition fees to pay, can Mary Scanlon mention a single parent or any unemployed person who has had to pay tuition fees?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1839E60P23C703634", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Scanlon, Mary", "ID": 1839, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mary Scanlon", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mary Scanlon: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 145.0, "ContributionID": 703634, "EditedText": "I will respond to the First Minister's comment about the percentage of people not paying tuition fees. Those who are eligible to pay tuition fees are exactly the people who are choosing not to enter further and higher education. As a student adviser at the University of the Highlands and Islands until one month ago, I had personal experience not only of students deciding not to enter further and higher education but of many who had to drop out. When Jim Wallace works out how to spend his additional £33,000 salary and Mr Finnie his additional £17,500, will they spare a thought for the thousands of students in Scotland who will pay a heavy price for Lib-Lab collective Cabinet responsibility? Students who are planning to start a course this autumn do not know whether they will have to pay fees this year, next year or in the future. Will Jim Wallace and Ross Finnie consider the hardship of students in the Highlands and other rural areas—where wages and salaries are below the national average—who require a longer pay-back period? Will they give some thought to the high proportion of students who work long hours to pay tuition fees and to pay for their keep and the effect that that has on their health, studies, future qualifications and life choices?", "EditedTextHTML": "I will respond to the First Minister's comment about the percentage of people not paying tuition fees. Those who are eligible to pay tuition fees are exactly the people who are choosing not to enter further and higher education. As a student adviser at the University of the Highlands and Islands until one month ago, I had personal experience not only of students deciding not to enter further and higher education but of many who had to drop out.

When Jim Wallace works out how to spend his additional £33,000 salary and Mr Finnie his additional £17,500, will they spare a thought for the thousands of students in Scotland who will pay

a heavy price for Lib-Lab collective Cabinet responsibility? Students who are planning to start a course this autumn do not know whether they will have to pay fees this year, next year or in the future. Will Jim Wallace and Ross Finnie consider the hardship of students in the Highlands and other rural areas—where wages and salaries are below the national average—who require a longer pay-back period? Will they give some thought to the high proportion of students who work long hours to pay tuition fees and to pay for their keep and the effect that that has on their health, studies, future qualifications and life choices?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1873E89P171C703635", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Jackson, Dr Sylvia", "ID": 1873, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Stirling" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sylvia Jackson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Sylvia Jackson (Stirling) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 147.0, "ContributionID": 703635, "EditedText": "Will Mary Scanlon give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mary Scanlon give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1985E207P501C703644", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Hamilton, Mr Duncan", "ID": 1985, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Duncan Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Hamilton: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 167.0, "ContributionID": 703644, "EditedText": "The Scottish National party is absolutely full square against tuition fees, and I would certainly vote against such a finding. What this discussion highlights is the difference between a party of principle and a party of opportunism, which is what it seems George represents. It was also fascinating to listen to George's arguments about beef on the bone. He is the recently retired president of the National Farmers Union. I wonder what the farmers have to say about his prevarication over lifting the beef-on-the-bone ban and about how the commitment to lifting the ban immediately seems, as a result of another of his opportunistic guises, to have mutated. I wonder what his previous employers will have to say. This is not just about policy; it is also about integrity. Many of the points that have been raised with me in reaction to the coalition are about the death of a Liberal party in Scotland. No one can deny that there is a long and proud tradition of liberal democracy in Scotland, but we are seeing a massive sell-out. We are seeing the death of a distinct political party, and its amalgamation into a larger Labour party. That is a very bad thing for Scottish democracy. The point of proportional representation is to encourage minority parties and the fractionising of the political process to ensure that there is wider, more mature and more adult debate. Rather than more parties and more opinions, what seems to be coming through in the guise of coalition government is fewer parties and one opinion. I suggest that that is a regressive step. As the leader in the negotiations, Mr Wallace should take the responsibility for that. In opposing his appointment, we must ask ourselves how a man who clearly cannot command the support of his own party can seriously expect to command the support of this Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Scottish National party is absolutely full square against tuition fees, and I would certainly vote against such a finding. What this discussion highlights is the difference between a party of principle and a party of opportunism, which is what it seems George represents.

It was also fascinating to listen to George's arguments about beef on the bone. He is the

recently retired president of the National Farmers Union. I wonder what the farmers have to say about his prevarication over lifting the beef-on-the-bone ban and about how the commitment to lifting the ban immediately seems, as a result of another of his opportunistic guises, to have mutated. I wonder what his previous employers will have to say.

This is not just about policy; it is also about integrity. Many of the points that have been raised with me in reaction to the coalition are about the death of a Liberal party in Scotland. No one can deny that there is a long and proud tradition of liberal democracy in Scotland, but we are seeing a massive sell-out. We are seeing the death of a distinct political party, and its amalgamation into a larger Labour party. That is a very bad thing for Scottish democracy.

The point of proportional representation is to encourage minority parties and the fractionising of the political process to ensure that there is wider, more mature and more adult debate. Rather than more parties and more opinions, what seems to be coming through in the guise of coalition government is fewer parties and one opinion. I suggest that that is a regressive step. As the leader in the negotiations, Mr Wallace should take the responsibility for that. In opposing his appointment, we must ask ourselves how a man who clearly cannot command the support of his own party can seriously expect to command the support of this Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C703648", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 177.0, "ContributionID": 703648, "EditedText": "I will not give way yet. My remarks are in many respects directed towards Mr McLetchie's amendment. In many ways, Labour has what it wanted—it has subsumed the Liberals in this pact. I do not often refer to editorials in the Sunday Mail, but I think that that paper got it just about right last Sunday: \"Liberal Democrats RIP.\" They have let down their electorate and the people of Scotland. Many members, including Mr Dewar, said that this was not a one-issue election. There were, however, some issues that dominated the campaign, one of which was student funding and, in particular, tuition fees. During the hustings, I took part in many a debate with new Labour members—I will not embarrass any of them by referring to them by name—and I found it very difficult to get them to defend tuition fees. Many of them said that the situation would have to be reviewed after the election, which I think managed to hold off some of the revolt among the students at the debates. The difficulty is that more than 60 per cent of the people of Scotland voted for political parties that said quite clearly that they wanted tuition fees to be abolished. I agree with Mr Watson's point that tuition fees should not become a bête noire. Frankly, for the lone parents and unemployed people he mentioned, tuition fees are not the main issue; the main issue is student maintenance. The other problem for new Labour is that it has gone even further than the Tories. It is rather sad that we can listen to representatives of the Tory party talking today about student maintenance and support when that party's record of underfunding of education and, in particular, attacks on students is nothing short of a disgrace. The difficulty is that new Labour's performance is allowing the Tories to behave like the students' friends, because new Labour has gone further than the Tory party. Many new Labour members, many of whom I recognise in the chamber—I see Mr McConnell here, although I would not want to embarrass anyone—benefited from the same educational opportunity as I did. In 1981, under a Tory Government, I was able to attend Stirling university, to receive a full maintenance grant and to claim housing benefit between terms, free of the idea of tuition fees—although my parents' income at the time would have meant that fees would not have been a factor. New Labour has removed access to education for working-class children from the housing schemes of Scotland because it has removed access to student maintenance. That is why the deal that has been entered into with the Liberals is so shabby.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will not give way yet. My remarks are in many respects directed towards Mr McLetchie's amendment.

In many ways, Labour has what it wanted—it has subsumed the Liberals in this pact. I do not often refer to editorials in the Sunday Mail, but I think that that paper got it just about right last Sunday: \"Liberal Democrats RIP.\" They have let down their electorate and the people of Scotland.

Many members, including Mr Dewar, said that this was not a one-issue election. There were, however, some issues that dominated the campaign, one of which was student funding and, in particular, tuition fees. During the hustings, I took part in many a debate with new Labour members—I will not embarrass any of them by referring to them by name—and I found it very difficult to get them to defend tuition fees. Many of them said that the situation would have to be reviewed after the election, which I think managed to hold off some of the revolt among the students at the debates.

The difficulty is that more than 60 per cent of the people of Scotland voted for political parties that said quite clearly that they wanted tuition fees to be abolished. I agree with Mr Watson's point that tuition fees should not become a bête noire. Frankly, for the lone parents and unemployed people he mentioned, tuition fees are not the main issue; the main issue is student maintenance.

The other problem for new Labour is that it has gone even further than the Tories. It is rather sad that we can listen to representatives of the Tory party talking today about student maintenance and support when that party's record of underfunding of education and, in particular, attacks on students is nothing short of a disgrace. The difficulty is that new Labour's performance is allowing the Tories to behave like the students' friends, because new Labour has gone further than the Tory party.

Many new Labour members, many of whom I recognise in the chamber—I see Mr McConnell here, although I would not want to embarrass anyone—benefited from the same educational opportunity as I did. In 1981, under a Tory Government, I was able to attend Stirling university, to receive a full maintenance grant and to claim housing benefit between terms, free of the idea of tuition fees—although my parents' income at the time would have meant that fees would not have been a factor. New Labour has removed access to education for working-class children from the housing schemes of Scotland because it has removed access to student maintenance. That is why the deal that has been entered into with the

Liberals is so shabby.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C703650", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 181.0, "ContributionID": 703650, "EditedText": "I may give way later.", "EditedTextHTML": "I may give way later.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C703652", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 185.0, "ContributionID": 703652, "EditedText": "I have nearly finished. That is why I am not letting him in. If the Liberals had stuck to their guns on the tuition fee argument, the issue of student funding would have been raised very early on in the session. That is what we wanted, what the National Union of Students wanted and, frankly, in the opinion of my party, what the electorate of Scotland wanted. It is from that point of view that I support Mr McLetchie's amendment. If people want new politics, there it is; on this occasion the Scottish Socialist party is willing to support his amendment. I know that many members of new Labour are sitting uncomfortably on the idea that new Labour is a party that has gone further than the Tories in underfunding student support. Perhaps Mr Dewar, if he were here, would confess that his concern about having a free vote after an inquiry is not about the Liberals, but about members of his party voting against fees.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have nearly finished. That is why I am not letting him in.

If the Liberals had stuck to their guns on the tuition fee argument, the issue of student funding would have been raised very early on in the session. That is what we wanted, what the National Union of Students wanted and, frankly, in the opinion of my party, what the electorate of Scotland wanted. It is from that point of view that I support Mr McLetchie's amendment. If people want new politics, there it is; on this occasion the Scottish Socialist party is willing to support his amendment.

I know that many members of new Labour are sitting uncomfortably on the idea that new Labour is a party that has gone further than the Tories in underfunding student support. Perhaps Mr Dewar, if he were here, would confess that his concern about having a free vote after an inquiry is not about the Liberals, but about members of his party voting against fees.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1970E66P288C703655", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McNulty, Des", "ID": 1970, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Clydebank and Milngavie" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Des McNulty", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Des McNulty: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 192.0, "ContributionID": 703655, "EditedText": "I will just wind up. This affliction needs to be tackled in three ways: first, by taking specific measures—and I am confident that the new team will pursue such measures; secondly, by establishing clear targets that show how we are going to change things and allow people to measure our achievements; thirdly, by having a health impact assessment of all our policies so that they are properly integrated. If we can take that step and deliver measurable achievements in health, it will be a sign of what can be achieved through the Government's partnership agreement.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will just wind up. This affliction needs to be tackled in three ways: first, by taking specific measures—and I am confident that the new team will pursue such measures; secondly, by establishing clear targets that show how we are going to change things and allow people to measure our achievements; thirdly, by having a health impact assessment of all our policies so that they are properly integrated. If we can take that step and deliver measurable achievements in health, it will be a sign of what can be achieved through the Government's partnership agreement.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2182E102P173C703657", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Simpson, Dr Richard", "ID": 2182, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Ochil" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Simpson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Simpson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 197.0, "ContributionID": 703657, "EditedText": "What astonishes me about the points being made by Michael Matheson and the parties who wish to lift the beef-on-the-bone ban is that they are determined to go against the medical advice that is being offered. Does he think that any member does not want the ban on beef on the bone lifted as quickly as possible? The ban cannot be lifted until the appropriate medical advice has been received.", "EditedTextHTML": "What astonishes me about the points being made by Michael Matheson and the parties who wish to lift the beef-on-the-bone ban is that they are determined to go against the medical advice that is being offered. Does he think that any member does not want the ban on beef on the bone lifted as quickly as possible? The ban cannot be lifted until the appropriate medical advice has been received.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2029E47P167C703667", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Henry, Hugh", "ID": 2029, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Paisley South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Hugh Henry", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Hugh Henry: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 218.0, "ContributionID": 703667, "EditedText": "We should be looking to debate a more positive way forward in a new Parliament. Interruption.", "EditedTextHTML": "We should be looking to debate a more positive way forward in a new Parliament. [Interruption.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C703670", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan (Falkirk West): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 225.0, "ContributionID": 703670, "EditedText": "I lodged an amendment similar to that of Mr Swinney to exclude Henry McLeish from the list of ministerial appointments. I want to make it clear at the outset that I bear no personal animosity towards Henry; in fact, I hold him in high personal regard. However, I feel very strongly that the minister responsible for higher education ought to be more in line with Scottish public opinion on that important subject. It is a fact that the majority of members of this Parliament were elected on commitments to abolish tuition fees. It is another fact that the Labour party was the only party that contested that election without a commitment to abolish tuition fees. I find it rather ironic that the party of free education has become the party of fee-paying education. That may be part of the reason for the Labour party's failure to win a majority of seats in this Parliament. Nevertheless, Labour has an obligation to respect the views of the Scottish people, including their views on the important matter of higher education. I want to say something about this Lib-Lab pact, or partnership, or whatever it is called. I am not opposed in principle to a coalition, but this seems to be a rather shabby deal to cheat the people by depriving them of what they voted for. All that we have on tuition fees is the promise of some kind of inquiry or review. Anybody with any experience of politics in another place knows that the term review is just Westminster-speak for a fudge. Besides, we have just had a national review of tuition fees—it was called an election. During the election the subject was aired very adequately, not just in my constituency but in virtually every constituency in the country. The people of Scotland want us to introduce early legislation to abolish tuition fees. The abolition of tuition fees, although necessary, is not sufficient, because it must be accompanied by the restoration of student grants, particularly for students from low-income families. Virtually all the designated members of the new Scottish Executive had the same advantage that I had: going to university with the assistance of a student grant. Many of us would never have had that opportunity if we had not had student grants. I remember visiting the campus of the University of Stirling, which was then in my constituency, as a young Labour MP, many years ago. A young revolutionary, complete with long hair and leather jacket, started haranguing Harold Wilson, the Prime Minister at that time, who was perceived by that student revolutionary, who was then a member of the Communist party, as the great bogeyman. The student revolutionary complained that Harold Wilson was not doing enough to help students because he was not meeting the full demands of the National Union of Students for an increase in grants. Times change. Earlier this week, that erstwhile student revolutionary became the new Secretary of State for Scotland, and therefore a member of a Cabinet which, frankly, has kicked away the ladder of opportunity from many students, including future generations of students. We should not repeat the same mistake in this place. We, collectively, as members of this Parliament—not just the members of the Scottish Executive—have a great responsibility to try to ensure that young people in particular have maximum educational opportunity, including those from low-income families. In a sense, education is the key to the future of our country, and we should not sell our young people short.", "EditedTextHTML": "I lodged an amendment similar to that of Mr Swinney to exclude Henry McLeish from the list of ministerial appointments. I want to make it clear at the outset that I bear no personal animosity towards Henry; in fact, I hold him in high personal regard. However, I feel very strongly that the minister responsible for higher education ought to be more in line with Scottish public opinion on that important subject.

It is a fact that the majority of members of this Parliament were elected on commitments to abolish tuition fees. It is another fact that the Labour party was the only party that contested that election without a commitment to abolish tuition fees. I find it rather ironic that the party of free education has become the party of fee-paying education. That may be part of the reason for the Labour party's failure to win a majority of seats in this Parliament. Nevertheless, Labour has an

obligation to respect the views of the Scottish people, including their views on the important matter of higher education.

I want to say something about this Lib-Lab pact, or partnership, or whatever it is called. I am not opposed in principle to a coalition, but this seems to be a rather shabby deal to cheat the people by depriving them of what they voted for. All that we have on tuition fees is the promise of some kind of inquiry or review. Anybody with any experience of politics in another place knows that the term review is just Westminster-speak for a fudge. Besides, we have just had a national review of tuition fees—it was called an election. During the election the subject was aired very adequately, not just in my constituency but in virtually every constituency in the country.

The people of Scotland want us to introduce early legislation to abolish tuition fees. The abolition of tuition fees, although necessary, is not sufficient, because it must be accompanied by the restoration of student grants, particularly for students from low-income families. Virtually all the designated members of the new Scottish Executive had the same advantage that I had: going to university with the assistance of a student grant. Many of us would never have had that opportunity if we had not had student grants.

I remember visiting the campus of the University of Stirling, which was then in my constituency, as a young Labour MP, many years ago. A young revolutionary, complete with long hair and leather jacket, started haranguing Harold Wilson, the Prime Minister at that time, who was perceived by that student revolutionary, who was then a member of the Communist party, as the great bogeyman. The student revolutionary complained that Harold Wilson was not doing enough to help students because he was not meeting the full demands of the National Union of Students for an increase in grants.

Times change. Earlier this week, that erstwhile student revolutionary became the new Secretary of State for Scotland, and therefore a member of a Cabinet which, frankly, has kicked away the ladder of opportunity from many students, including future generations of students.

We should not repeat the same mistake in this place. We, collectively, as members of this Parliament—not just the members of the Scottish Executive—have a great responsibility to try to ensure that young people in particular have maximum educational opportunity, including those from low-income families.

In a sense, education is the key to the future of our country, and we should not sell our young people short.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703676", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 238.0, "ContributionID": 703676, "EditedText": "Ten members still wish to speak. If they notify the chamber office during the lunch break that they wish to be added to the list for the afternoon, we will try to include them then.", "EditedTextHTML": "Ten members still wish to speak. If they notify the chamber office during the lunch break that they wish to be added to the list for the afternoon, we will try to include them then.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C703678", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Keith Raffan (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 243.0, "ContributionID": 703678, "EditedText": "Will Mr Swinney give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "

Will Mr Swinney give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C703680", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 248.0, "ContributionID": 703680, "EditedText": "It has been a fascinating discussion so far. I was intrigued by the contribution from Mr Sheridan, whose support I welcome. Laughter. I was also intrigued by the contribution from Patricia Godman, who referred to Keir Hardie. I have to tell her that she will never get off the back benches by invoking the name of a socialist in the chamber. I was very intrigued by the lack of answers to the question posed by the persistent Mr Adam and I congratulate him on his persistence. The truth that his unanswered question elucidates is that the coalition is a result of a partnership of give and take—the Liberal Democrats giving and the Labour party taking. That is the foundation on which it is based. I am intrigued by the faith that is being placed in the proposed committee of inquiry. Mr Canavan said that we have already had a national review in the general election. He is right, but preceding that there was a review in the Dearing and Garrick reports of the whole issue of funding of higher education, which came to a particular conclusion on fees. All the political parties had an opportunity to consider those reports and to come to their own conclusions on tuition fees. My party did so, as did the Scottish National party and the Liberal Democrats. We have had all the inquiries, reports and reviews that we need to take a decision. We took a decision in our parties and the people took a decision on 6 May. The committee of inquiry, as Dennis Canavan rightly said, is a complete and utter fudge—it is a fig leaf and a delaying tactic to allow time for arm-twisting, or perhaps for gentle persuasion by Mr McLeish, in order to get a particular outcome. We have been bombarded with letters from people in higher education requesting a wider review, because those people rightly feel that the Government will not make up the difference by providing the additional funding that those institutions need. That would be the real solution. Our solution is for Mr McConnell, as the new Minister for Finance, to sharpen his pencil, reduce the bloated administration, and redeploy some of the funds into the people's priorities—the abolition of tuition fees.", "EditedTextHTML": "It has been a fascinating discussion so far. I was intrigued by the contribution from Mr Sheridan, whose support I welcome. [Laughter.] I was also intrigued by the contribution from Patricia Godman, who referred to Keir Hardie. I have to tell her that she will never get off the back benches by invoking the name of a socialist in the chamber. I was very intrigued by the lack of answers to the question posed by the persistent Mr Adam and I congratulate him on his persistence. The truth that his unanswered question elucidates is that the coalition is a result of a partnership of give and take—the Liberal Democrats giving and the Labour party taking. That is the foundation on which it is based.

I am intrigued by the faith that is being placed in the proposed committee of inquiry. Mr Canavan said that we have already had a national review in the general election. He is right, but preceding that there was a review in the Dearing and Garrick reports of the whole issue of funding of higher education, which came to a particular conclusion on fees. All the political parties had an opportunity to consider those reports and to come to their own conclusions on tuition fees. My party did so, as did the Scottish National party and the Liberal Democrats.

We have had all the inquiries, reports and reviews that we need to take a decision. We took a decision in our parties and the people took a decision on 6 May. The committee of inquiry, as Dennis Canavan rightly said, is a complete and utter fudge—it is a fig leaf and a delaying tactic to allow time for arm-twisting, or perhaps for gentle persuasion by Mr McLeish, in order to get a particular outcome.

We have been bombarded with letters from people in higher education requesting a wider review, because those people rightly feel that the Government will not make up the difference by providing the additional funding that those institutions need. That would be the real solution. Our solution is for Mr McConnell, as the new Minister for Finance, to sharpen his pencil, reduce the bloated administration, and redeploy some of the funds into the people's priorities—the abolition of tuition fees.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1865E219P509C703682", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "White, Sandra", "ID": 1865, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sandra White", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Sandra White (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 253.0, "ContributionID": 703682, "EditedText": "Will Mr Wallace give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Mr Wallace give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C703683", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice", "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 255.0, "ContributionID": 703683, "EditedText": "Our commitment to making this Parliament work can never have been in any doubt.", "EditedTextHTML": "Our commitment to making this Parliament work can never have been in any doubt.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703688", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 265.0, "ContributionID": 703688, "EditedText": "You have one minute left.", "EditedTextHTML": "You have one minute left.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703690", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 269.0, "ContributionID": 703690, "EditedText": "I remind members of the voting procedure. When I put the question and ask, \"Are we all agreed?\", anyone who wishes to vote against or to register an abstention must shout no at that point. That triggers an electronic vote. We come first to the amendment in the name of Mr David McLetchie: S1M-4.1, to leave out \"James Wallace\" and \"Ross Finnie\". The question is, that the amendment be agreed to. Are we all agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "I remind members of the voting procedure. When I put the question and ask, \"Are we all agreed?\", anyone who wishes to vote against or to register an abstention must shout no at that point. That triggers an electronic vote.

We come first to the amendment in the name of Mr David McLetchie:

S1M-4.1, to leave out \"James Wallace\" and \"Ross Finnie\".

The question is, that the amendment be agreed to. Are we all agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703692", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 273.0, "ContributionID": 703692, "EditedText": "In that case, there will be a division. Members should vote yes to agree to the amendment, no to disagree with the amendment, or abstain to record an abstention. Members have 30 seconds in which to vote.", "EditedTextHTML": "In that case, there will be a division.

Members should vote yes to agree to the amendment, no to disagree with the amendment, or abstain to record an abstention. Members have 30 seconds in which to vote.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703699", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 285.0, "ContributionID": 703699, "EditedText": "FOR Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)AGAINST Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)Mackay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)(LD)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)ABSTENTIONS Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)

AGAINST

Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Mackay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)
(LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)

ABSTENTIONS

Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703701", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 288.0, "ContributionID": 703701, "EditedText": "Amendment disagreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Amendment disagreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703702", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 289.0, "ContributionID": 703702, "EditedText": "We come now to the motion in the name of the First Minister: That this Parliament agrees that James Wallace, Sam Galbraith, Henry McLeish, Jack McConnell, Susan Deacon, Tom McCabe, Ross Finnie, Wendy Alexander, Sarah Boyack be appointed as Ministers.", "EditedTextHTML": "We come now to the motion in the name of the First Minister:

That this Parliament agrees that James Wallace, Sam Galbraith, Henry McLeish, Jack McConnell, Susan Deacon, Tom McCabe, Ross Finnie, Wendy Alexander, Sarah Boyack be appointed as Ministers.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703703", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 291.0, "ContributionID": 703703, "EditedText": "The question is, that the motion be agreed to. Are we all agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "The question is, that the motion be agreed to. Are we all agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6547509+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703706", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 297.0, "ContributionID": 703706, "EditedText": "FOR Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)Mackay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)(LD)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)AGAINST Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)ABSTENTIONS Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Mackay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)
(LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)

AGAINST

Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)

ABSTENTIONS

Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703709", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 301.0, "ContributionID": 703709, "EditedText": "The result of the vote is valid, and I therefore declare that the Parliament has agreed to the First Minister's recommendations and that he may now recommend to Her Majesty that she appoint James Wallace, Sam Galbraith, Henry McLeish, Jack McConnell, Susan Deacon, Tom McCabe, Ross Finnie, Wendy Alexander and Sarah Boyack as ministers. Question, That the meeting be now adjourned until 2.30 pm today, put and agreed to.—Mr Reid.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result of the vote is valid, and I therefore declare that the Parliament has agreed to the First Minister's recommendations and that he may now recommend to Her Majesty that she appoint James Wallace, Sam Galbraith, Henry McLeish, Jack McConnell, Susan Deacon, Tom McCabe, Ross Finnie, Wendy Alexander and Sarah Boyack as ministers.

Question, That the meeting be now adjourned until 2.30 pm today, put and agreed to.—[Mr Reid.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C703714", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Alex Salmond (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 312.0, "ContributionID": 703714, "EditedText": "The SNP has criticised the choice rather than the number of ministers. What policy will a junior minister with specific responsibility for fisheries pursue on the transfer of 6,000 square miles of fishing waters to English jurisdiction? How did that transfer, which is causing such anxiety within the Scottish fishing industry, happen?", "EditedTextHTML": "The SNP has criticised the choice rather than the number of ministers. What policy will a junior minister with specific responsibility for fisheries pursue on the transfer of 6,000 square miles of fishing waters to English jurisdiction? How did that transfer, which is causing such anxiety within the Scottish fishing industry, happen?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C703716", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 316.0, "ContributionID": 703716, "EditedText": "Will the First Minister give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the First Minister give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C703718", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 320.0, "ContributionID": 703718, "EditedText": "Will the First Minister please outline how the concessions that he referred to will be paid for? We have heard a lot about spending but not a lot about what will be cut.", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the First Minister please outline how the concessions that he referred to will be paid for? We have heard a lot about spending but not a lot about what will be cut.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C703720", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 324.0, "ContributionID": 703720, "EditedText": "Just let me finish. We have taken steps to ensure that there is a debate on these matters; no doubt such points can be addressed then. Today, we are putting forward a team which I believe stands for partnership and progress. This is not a matter of scoring and totalling up points. Obviously, the partnership agreement is not an exhaustive list—it was never meant to be—but a way of establishing and proving that there is an identity of interest and a common approach over a wide spread of policy areas, which we believe will be the basis for the effective operation of government. What I am interested in above all, and what I think people in Scotland are interested in, is in ensuring that the operation of government is effective and that the Government delivers on the key areas of the social justice agenda—education and health—in the way that was promised in the partnership document and in our respective Liberal Democrat and Labour manifestos. We have the people to do that; what we need now is the support of this chamber so that they can take up their ministerial posts and get on with the work. I move,That this Parliament agrees that Angus Mackay, Peter Peacock, Rhona Brankin, Nicol Stephen, Alasdair Morrison, Iain Gray, Iain Smith, John Home Robertson, Frank McAveety, Jackie Baillie, be appointed as junior Scottish Ministers.", "EditedTextHTML": "Just let me finish. We have taken steps to ensure that there is a debate on these matters; no doubt such points can be addressed then.

Today, we are putting forward a team which I believe stands for partnership and progress. This is not a matter of scoring and totalling up points. Obviously, the partnership agreement is not an exhaustive list—it was never meant to be—but a way of establishing and proving that there is an identity of interest and a common approach over a wide spread of policy areas, which we believe will be the basis for the effective operation of government.

What I am interested in above all, and what I think people in Scotland are interested in, is in ensuring that the operation of government is effective and that the Government delivers on the key areas of the social justice agenda—education and health—in the way that was promised in the partnership document and in our respective Liberal Democrat and Labour manifestos. We have the people to do that; what we need now is the support of this chamber so that they can take up their ministerial posts and get on with the work.

I move,

That this Parliament agrees that Angus Mackay, Peter Peacock, Rhona Brankin, Nicol Stephen, Alasdair Morrison, Iain Gray, Iain Smith, John Home Robertson, Frank McAveety, Jackie Baillie, be appointed as junior Scottish Ministers.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2038E191P344C703722", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Smith, Iain", "ID": 2038, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Iain Smith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Iain Smith (North-East Fife) (LD) rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 329.0, "ContributionID": 703722, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2112E192P495C703731", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "MacAskill, Kenny", "ID": 2112, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenny MacAskill", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Kenny MacAskill (Lothians) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 348.0, "ContributionID": 703731, "EditedText": "On behalf of the Scottish National party, I support the amendment to leave out Mr Nicol Stephen. Like others, I do so on the basis not of personality, but of policies. Accountability, accessibility and transparency were principles that underpinned the consultative steering group report. The document arose out of and reflected the application of those principles. Many meetings were held, and they were open and accountable. Public views were canvassed, public views were sought and welcomed, and public views were reflected and echoed in the document. What has happened in the past few days? First, our Parliament, adjourned for nigh on 300 years, has reconvened and been opened to public view. A great deal of public warmth and sympathy has been extended. Secondly, and sadly, a deal has been brokered behind closed doors—behind the back of the electorate and behind the back of Liberal Democrat members and voters. As Mr Canavan said earlier, the electorate spoke on 6 May, in clear public view. I regret that the electorate in Aberdeen South did not choose my party. That is their democratic right and entitlement. They selected Mr Stephen and supported the policies and platform on which he stood. His victory was acknowledged by my party with all the dignity and decorum that went with the occasion. However, the electorate did not select or vote for the Labour party candidate, so Mr Stephen has no democratic right whatever to sell out his principles or the policies and platform on which he stood and sought election. As my colleague Mr Hamilton said earlier, this is not a partnership but a takeover—a lock, stock and barrel takeover of the soul of liberal democracy. That is clearly shown in the document \"Partnership for Scotland\"—otherwise known, as far as I can see, as the unconditional surrender of liberal democracy in Scotland. Never in the recent history of Scottish politics has so much been ceded by so many for so very little. The document refers to the settled will of the Scottish people. On 11 September 1997 and again on 6 May 1999, the people of Scotland expressed their settled will. That is fine. I believe that their settled will was that tuition fees should be dead in the water. We have found that that promise has been reneged on. It was not, as far as I can tell, election rhetoric. It was not even empty rhetoric. It was, as I remind Mr Wallace, a simple statement of fact that tuition fees would be dead if all those parties that pledged their opposition to them remained firm and true to the pledges that they gave to the electorate and upon which they sought to be returned. I paraphrase our national bard: Mr Stephen and his party have been bought and sold for ministerial gold—such a parcel of rogues in a party.", "EditedTextHTML": "On behalf of the Scottish National party, I support the amendment to leave out Mr Nicol Stephen. Like others, I do so on the basis not of personality, but of policies. Accountability, accessibility and transparency were principles that underpinned the consultative steering group report. The document arose out of and reflected the application of those principles. Many meetings were held, and they were open and accountable. Public views were canvassed, public views were sought and welcomed, and public views were reflected and echoed in the document.

What has happened in the past few days? First, our Parliament, adjourned for nigh on 300 years, has reconvened and been opened to public view. A great deal of public warmth and sympathy has been extended. Secondly, and sadly, a deal has been brokered behind closed doors—behind the back of the electorate and behind the back of Liberal Democrat members and voters. As Mr Canavan said earlier, the electorate spoke on 6 May, in clear public view.

I regret that the electorate in Aberdeen South did not choose my party. That is their democratic right and entitlement. They selected Mr Stephen and supported the policies and platform on which he stood. His victory was acknowledged by my party with all the dignity and decorum that went with the occasion. However, the electorate did not select or vote for the Labour party candidate, so Mr Stephen has no democratic right whatever to sell out his principles or the policies and platform on which he stood and sought election.

As my colleague Mr Hamilton said earlier, this is not a partnership but a takeover—a lock, stock and barrel takeover of the soul of liberal democracy. That is clearly shown in the document \"Partnership for Scotland\"—otherwise known, as far as I can see, as the unconditional surrender of liberal democracy in Scotland. Never in the recent history of Scottish politics has so much been ceded by so many for so very little.

The document refers to the settled will of the Scottish people. On 11 September 1997 and again on 6 May 1999, the people of Scotland expressed their settled will. That is fine. I believe that their settled will was that tuition fees should be dead in the water. We have found that that promise has been reneged on. It was not, as far as I can tell, election rhetoric. It was not even empty rhetoric. It was, as I remind Mr Wallace, a simple statement of fact that tuition fees would be dead if all those parties that pledged their opposition to them remained firm and true to the pledges that they gave to the electorate and upon which they sought to be returned.

I paraphrase our national bard: Mr Stephen and his party have been bought and sold for ministerial gold—such a parcel of rogues in a party.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C703734", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 355.0, "ContributionID": 703734, "EditedText": "I will not give way yet. MEMBERS: \"Ah.\" I will do so shortly. I want to finish my point about the SNP. It has been in coalition before at a local authority level. I hear that the two SNP councillors approached their Tory counterparts in Stirling offering a coalition. That clearly comes as a revelation to many members.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will not give way yet. [MEMBERS: \"Ah.\"] I will do so shortly. I want to finish my point about the SNP. It has been in coalition before at a local authority level. I hear that the two SNP councillors approached their Tory counterparts in Stirling offering a coalition. That clearly comes as a revelation to many members.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C703741", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 369.0, "ContributionID": 703741, "EditedText": "It was an intervention as well.", "EditedTextHTML": "It was an intervention as well.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C703743", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 373.0, "ContributionID": 703743, "EditedText": "I have got the point. I am worried about my four minutes—Mr Harper seems to have taken half of them. I am against the commercial planting of GM foods, although that is not relevant to the points that I am trying to make at the moment. Furthermore, I do not believe that my party has abandoned its commitment. There are a lot of good things in the agreement, including the £29 million to increase access to further and higher education for people on low incomes, which we might not have secured without the agreement. We might not have got much of the £600 million to catch up with the school building maintenance backlog, which exists thanks to the Tories. We might not have secured the 500 extra teachers without the agreement or the extra £21 million for books, which the SNP called for during the election campaign. There is a lot that the whole Parliament—not just the Liberal Democrats and Labour—can support.I am saddened by the tone of this morning's debate, particularly by the personal attacks, which demean this place and those who make them; they make little impact on their victims. Mr McLetchie's remarks were unfortunate. There is a good old phrase used in the House of Commons about members misjudging the mood of the House. I think that Mr McLetchie seriously misjudged the mood of the Parliament today when he went completely over the top in his remarks.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have got the point. I am worried about my four minutes—Mr Harper seems to have taken half of them.

I am against the commercial planting of GM foods, although that is not relevant to the points that I am trying to make at the moment. Furthermore, I do not believe that my party has abandoned its commitment.

There are a lot of good things in the agreement, including the £29 million to increase access to further and higher education for people on low incomes, which we might not have secured without the agreement. We might not have got much of the £600 million to catch up with the school building maintenance backlog, which exists thanks to the Tories. We might not have secured the 500 extra teachers without the agreement or the extra £21 million for books, which the SNP called for during the election campaign. There is a lot that the whole Parliament—not just the Liberal

Democrats and Labour—can support.

I am saddened by the tone of this morning's debate, particularly by the personal attacks, which demean this place and those who make them; they make little impact on their victims. Mr McLetchie's remarks were unfortunate. There is a good old phrase used in the House of Commons about members misjudging the mood of the House. I think that Mr McLetchie seriously misjudged the mood of the Parliament today when he went completely over the top in his remarks.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C703747", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 381.0, "ContributionID": 703747, "EditedText": "Indeed, hardly a week goes by without Lady Thatcher going ballistic because of the way in which she believes her policies have been sold out by William Hague. I will have more to say later.", "EditedTextHTML": "Indeed, hardly a week goes by without Lady Thatcher going ballistic because of the way in which she believes her policies have been sold out by William Hague.

I will have more to say later.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C703765", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 424.0, "ContributionID": 703765, "EditedText": "Will Dr Simpson give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Dr Simpson give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2080E130P217C703754", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lamont, Johann", "ID": 2080, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Pollok" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Johann Lamont", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Johann Lamont (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 399.0, "ContributionID": 703754, "EditedText": "Taing dhuibh airson cothrom a bhi bruidhinn. Tha mi ga chunntais mar urram a bhi an seo an diugh a seasamh airson muinntir Phollok. Thank you for the opportunity to speak. I am proud to be here to represent the people of Pollok and, in supporting the nominations for junior ministers, I am proud to speak my first words in this new Parliament in the language of my parents and forebears. Applause. If I may speak about rhetoric, SNP members should remember that, although they claim, as they did last night, that the SNP is Scotland's party, no one has a monopoly on being Scottish. We are all Scotland's parties and our job is to ensure that all Scotland's voices are heard. I am sure that members who are native Gaelic speakers will have winced at my halting Gaelic. At one time, Gaelic marked people out as being different and, in many cases, Gaels did not use their own language. Now, fortunately, things are different. However, there are still many people in our communities who are marked out as different, who are visible, and who feel under threat. I am proud to be part of a Labour team that seeks to celebrate and embrace difference, but which will challenge the underlying and damaging inequalities than can emerge from those differences. I am pleased to support the nominations of Frank McAveety and Jackie Baillie, who, with Wendy Alexander, will be responsible for leading the fight for social inclusion and justice. There are many causes of exclusion, whether of the carer looking after a dementia sufferer, the woman victim of male violence, the young black person suffering a racist attack, or the child whose life chances are already significantly determined by the time he or she goes to school. It is fitting that Scotland's first Administration in Scotland's first democratic Parliament should have social inclusion as a central aim. A crucial area of inequality that must be addressed is the experience of women. I am proud of Labour's record on equal representation. It was done not by proportional representation nor by accident, but as the result of the determination of women in the Labour movement, and outside it, to ensure that, from the beginning, this Parliament would be different. I welcome the fact that Labour's team for tackling social exclusion contains two strong women, giving practical meaning to all our aspirations for the women of Scotland. Our challenge will be not only to work for the women of Scotland, but to work with them, to bring about real change. Perhaps people are wondering what the difference might be. I am the first woman ever to represent the people of Pollok—records go back to 1761—and that is a responsibility that I take seriously. I hope that we will now have the opportunity to create a politics that seeks practical outcomes, empowers those who need changes, and ends the world of gesture politics that is, regrettably, so beloved of many people in this chamber, who, soundly beaten in the election, want to use this Parliament to go on performing. Wendy Alexander and her team seek not gesture but action. We should welcome a strategy for social inclusion that emphasises the crucial and critical role of communities in determining priorities for themselves. We welcome action on housing and action to tackle child poverty.", "EditedTextHTML": "Taing dhuibh airson cothrom a bhi bruidhinn. Tha mi ga chunntais mar urram a bhi an seo an diugh a seasamh airson muinntir Phollok.

Thank you for the opportunity to speak. I am proud to be here to represent the people of Pollok and, in supporting the nominations for junior ministers, I am proud to speak my first words in this new Parliament in the language of my parents and forebears. [Applause.]

If I may speak about rhetoric, SNP members should remember that, although they claim, as they did last night, that the SNP is Scotland's party, no one has a monopoly on being Scottish. We are all Scotland's parties and our job is to ensure that all Scotland's voices are heard.

I am sure that members who are native Gaelic speakers will have winced at my halting Gaelic. At one time, Gaelic marked people out as being different and, in many cases, Gaels did not use their own language. Now, fortunately, things are different. However, there are still many people in our communities who are marked out as different, who are visible, and who feel under threat. I am proud to be part of a Labour team that seeks to celebrate and embrace difference, but which will challenge the underlying and damaging inequalities than can emerge from those differences.

I am pleased to support the nominations of Frank McAveety and Jackie Baillie, who, with Wendy Alexander, will be responsible for leading the fight for social inclusion and justice. There are many causes of exclusion, whether of the carer looking after a dementia sufferer, the woman victim of male violence, the young black person suffering a racist attack, or the child whose life chances are already significantly determined by the time he or she goes to school. It is fitting that Scotland's first Administration in Scotland's first democratic Parliament should have social inclusion as a central aim.

A crucial area of inequality that must be addressed is the experience of women. I am proud of Labour's record on equal representation. It was done not by proportional representation nor by accident, but as the result of the determination of women in the Labour movement, and outside it, to ensure that, from the beginning, this Parliament would be different.

I welcome the fact that Labour's team for tackling social exclusion contains two strong women, giving practical meaning to all our aspirations for the women of Scotland. Our challenge will be not only to work for the women of Scotland, but to work with them, to bring about real change.

Perhaps people are wondering what the difference might be. I am the first woman ever to represent the people of Pollok—records go back to 1761—and that is a responsibility that I take seriously. I hope that we will now have the opportunity to create a politics that seeks practical outcomes, empowers those who need changes, and ends the world of gesture politics that is, regrettably, so beloved of many people in this chamber, who, soundly beaten in the election, want to use this Parliament to go on performing.

Wendy Alexander and her team seek not gesture but action. We should welcome a strategy for social inclusion that emphasises the crucial and critical role of communities in determining priorities for themselves. We welcome action on housing and action to tackle child poverty.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2080E130P217C703756", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lamont, Johann", "ID": 2080, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Pollok" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Johann Lamont", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Johann Lamont: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 403.0, "ContributionID": 703756, "EditedText": "I have just stopped after twenty years spent working with young people and their families who faced more challenges in their everyday lives than we shall ever know. Our children's voices must be heard and their stories must inform and drive our priorities in power. They can tell us the cost of poverty. They can tell us what happens to their educational opportunities. Given what the Tories have done to create social disaffection during the past 20 years, I for one would have pause for thought to wonder whether my priorities are the same as those of the Tories on the question of tuition fees. Those young people know the impact of poverty on their health and emotional well-being. We should be outraged at the affront that the statistics of poverty give to our idea of a new Scotland. I commend Labour's team to members, and I urge support for a team and a strategy that must address inequality and that will embrace the power of co-operation. I am supported by the co-operative party and by the Co-operative movement. We have nothing to fear from co-operation. We must celebrate community and give power to communities in order that the Scottish Parliament can take on the responsibility of tackling the deep-rooted injustice that is faced by too many young Scots.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have just stopped after twenty years spent working with young people and their families who faced more challenges in their everyday lives than we shall ever know. Our children's voices must be heard and their stories must inform and drive our priorities in power. They can tell us the cost of poverty. They can tell us what happens to their educational opportunities. Given what the Tories have done to create social disaffection during the past 20 years, I for one would have pause for thought to wonder whether my priorities are the same as those of the Tories on the question of tuition fees.

Those young people know the impact of poverty on their health and emotional well-being. We should be outraged at the affront that the statistics of poverty give to our idea of a new Scotland. I commend Labour's team to members, and I urge support for a team and a strategy that must address inequality and that will embrace the power of co-operation. I am supported by the co-operative party and by the Co-operative movement. We have nothing to fear from co-operation. We must celebrate community and give power to communities in order that the Scottish Parliament can take on the responsibility of tackling the deep-rooted injustice that is faced by too many young Scots.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1853E127P225C703762", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ferguson, Patricia", "ID": 1853, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Maryhill" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Patricia Ferguson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Deputy Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 417.0, "ContributionID": 703762, "EditedText": "Are you finished, Mr Gibson?", "EditedTextHTML": "Are you finished, Mr Gibson?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703761", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Mr Smith ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Smith: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 415.0, "ContributionID": 703761, "EditedText": "I will decide what to say in an intervention. The parties are not bound in advance. Which words do you not understand? It is clear that the Liberal Democrats will make up their minds, and I as a whip will deliver what they want to vote, not what other parties want to vote.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will decide what to say in an intervention. The parties are not bound in advance. Which words do you not understand? It is clear that the Liberal Democrats will make up their minds, and I as a whip will deliver what they want to vote, not what other parties want to vote.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1894E224P524C703771", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Neil, Alex", "ID": 1894, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Neil", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Neil (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 437.0, "ContributionID": 703771, "EditedText": "Labour members' rhetoric about social inclusion would sound a lot less hollow if their colleagues in the House of Commons were not planning, simultaneously, to impose a savage cut in incapacity benefit. I will address most of my remarks to the Scottish Liberal party. I remember when that party had a proud tradition; I remember the legacy of people such as John Bannerman and Jo Grimond. It was a radical party and a party of principle. With this new partnership agreement, we are witnessing the strange death of the Liberal tradition in Scotland. I could never imagine people such as Jo Grimond adopting the marshmallow antics of today's Liberal Democrats in their dealings with the Labour party. I could never imagine the earlier generation of Scottish Liberals selling out on a basic principle of free education. What did the Liberal Democrats get, apart from their ministerial positions? They got a committee of inquiry, but we do not know whether it will have the power, the remit or the composition to deal effectively with tuition fees. Who will nominate the committee members—the eight Labour members of the Scottish Cabinet or the two Liberal members? If the eight Labour members nominate Labour cronies who they know will come up with the answer they are looking for, will the two Liberal members have the right of veto over the nominations? What will the committee's remit be? Will it look at the issue of student poverty? MEMBERS: \"Yes.\" Will it be able to address the reintroduction of student grants and the issue of student loans? MEMBERS: \"Yes.\" Will it meet, and take evidence, in public? MEMBERS: \"Yes.\" If the committee recommends the abolition of tuition fees, do we have a commitment from the benches opposite that the recommendation will be accepted?", "EditedTextHTML": "Labour members' rhetoric about social inclusion would sound a lot less hollow if their colleagues in the House of Commons were not planning, simultaneously, to impose a savage cut in incapacity benefit.

I will address most of my remarks to the Scottish Liberal party. I remember when that party had a proud tradition; I remember the legacy of people such as John Bannerman and Jo Grimond. It was a radical party and a party of principle. With this new partnership agreement, we are witnessing the strange death of the Liberal tradition in Scotland. I could never imagine people such as Jo Grimond adopting the marshmallow antics of today's Liberal Democrats in their dealings with the Labour party. I could never imagine the earlier generation of Scottish Liberals selling out on a basic principle of free education.

What did the Liberal Democrats get, apart from their ministerial positions? They got a committee of inquiry, but we do not know whether it will have the power, the remit or the composition to deal effectively with tuition fees. Who will nominate the committee members—the eight Labour members of the Scottish Cabinet or the two Liberal members? If the eight Labour members nominate Labour cronies who they know will come up with the answer they are looking for, will the two Liberal members have the right of veto over the nominations?

What will the committee's remit be? Will it look at the issue of student poverty? [MEMBERS: \"Yes.\"] Will it be able to address the reintroduction of student grants and the issue of student loans? [MEMBERS: \"Yes.\"] Will it meet, and take evidence, in public? [MEMBERS: \"Yes.\"] If the committee recommends the abolition of tuition fees, do we have a commitment from the benches opposite that the recommendation will be accepted?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703774", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 443.0, "ContributionID": 703774, "EditedText": "Please start to wind up your speech, Mr Neil.", "EditedTextHTML": "Please start to wind up your speech, Mr Neil.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C703777", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Raffan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 450.0, "ContributionID": 703777, "EditedText": "Will Phil Gallie give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Phil Gallie give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703781", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 458.0, "ContributionID": 703781, "EditedText": "Order. I now call Ross Finnie to wind up for the Executive.", "EditedTextHTML": "Order. I now call Ross Finnie to wind up for the Executive.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C703782", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ross Finnie (West of Scotland) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 461.0, "ContributionID": 703782, "EditedText": "It is fair to say that this debate has generated more heat than light. It has also revealed a strange tendency among SNP and Conservative members to believe everything they read in the press. They do not allow for the fact that most articles are written without letting truth interfere with a good story. There have also been few examples of willingness to listen or understand. Mr Gallie got off to a particularly bad start. The First Minister made clear the difference between fudge and fig leaf. It was intriguing that, after hearing that perfect explanation, Mr Gallie should plough on— obviously he did not believe that there was any difference at all. My leader, James Wallace, made it clear this morning that we have not changed our position on tuition fees. That will be perfectly clear to anyone who reads the partnership document. It is a pity that Mr Neil has not read the document, which makes clear that the terms of reference, the time scale and the membership of the committee of inquiry should be submitted for the approval of Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is fair to say that this debate has generated more heat than light. It has also revealed a strange tendency among SNP and Conservative members to believe everything they read in the press. They do not allow for the fact that most articles are written without letting truth interfere with a good story.

There have also been few examples of willingness to listen or understand. Mr Gallie got off to a particularly bad start. The First Minister made clear the difference between fudge and fig leaf. It was intriguing that, after hearing that perfect explanation, Mr Gallie should plough on— obviously he did not believe that there was any difference at all.

My leader, James Wallace, made it clear this morning that we have not changed our position on tuition fees. That will be perfectly clear to anyone who reads the partnership document.

It is a pity that Mr Neil has not read the document, which makes clear that the terms of reference, the time scale and the membership of the committee of inquiry should be submitted for the approval of Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C703783", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 463.0, "ContributionID": 703783, "EditedText": "Can Ross Finnie tell me why three of his party's members voted against the document because of the policy on tuition fees? I walked past Mr Raffan as he was addressing a camera in a somewhat animated manner; he was saying that he would not vote for the document for that reason. Do those members misunderstand the policy?", "EditedTextHTML": "Can Ross Finnie tell me why three of his party's members voted against the document because of the policy on tuition fees? I walked past Mr Raffan as he was addressing a camera in a somewhat animated manner; he was saying that he would not vote for the document for that reason. Do those members misunderstand the policy?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C703785", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 467.0, "ContributionID": 703785, "EditedText": "Will the member give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will the member give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2202E125P322C703786", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Finnie, Ross", "ID": 2202, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Rural Affairs", "SpeakerName": "Ross Finnie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ross Finnie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 469.0, "ContributionID": 703786, "EditedText": "No, I have very little time left and I want to make two points. I would not have recommended the agreement to my colleagues if it had involved a matter of principle. I want to make that absolutely clear. Anyone who reads the document will understand that there is substantial give and take on both sides. Labour did not get a majority and neither did the Liberal Democrats; that is why the document reflects substantial changes in both form and substance to the parties' positions. On the appointments of junior ministers, let us be clear that what is being formed is a Government, not an extension of a department of the Scottish Office. The numbers that were suggested by Mr McLetchie are absurd and would have made it almost impossible for ministers to attend committees. The committees will be powerful and ministers will have to attend them to ensure proper scrutiny. The ministers form the basis of a perfectly stable Government and I commend the document to the chamber.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I have very little time left and I want to make two points.

I would not have recommended the agreement to my colleagues if it had involved a matter of principle. I want to make that absolutely clear. Anyone who reads the document will understand that there is substantial give and take on both sides. Labour did not get a majority and neither did the Liberal Democrats; that is why the document reflects substantial changes in both form and substance to the parties' positions.

On the appointments of junior ministers, let us be clear that what is being formed is a Government, not an extension of a department of the Scottish Office. The numbers that were suggested by Mr McLetchie are absurd and would have made it almost impossible for ministers to attend committees. The committees will be powerful and ministers will have to attend them to ensure proper scrutiny.

The ministers form the basis of a perfectly stable Government and I commend the document to the chamber.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703787", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 471.0, "ContributionID": 703787, "EditedText": "An amendment in the name of Miss Annabel Goldie has been moved: S1M-5.1, to leave out \"Nicol Stephen\" and \"Iain Smith\". The question is, that the amendment be agreed to. Are we all agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "An amendment in the name of Miss Annabel Goldie has been moved:

S1M-5.1, to leave out \"Nicol Stephen\" and \"Iain Smith\".

The question is, that the amendment be agreed to. Are we all agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703788", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 473.0, "ContributionID": 703788, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703803", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 499.0, "ContributionID": 703803, "EditedText": "No, I am sorry. I have already made it clear that I will be very severe on bogus points of order. That is not a point of order for the chair, nor is it in order to refer to other people who may be attending the meeting in the galleries.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, I am sorry. I have already made it clear that I will be very severe on bogus points of order. That is not a point of order for the chair, nor is it in order to refer to other people who may be attending the meeting in the galleries.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703790", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 477.0, "ContributionID": 703790, "EditedText": "FOR Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)AGAINST Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)Mackay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)(LD)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)ABSTENTIONHarper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)

AGAINST

Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Mackay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)
(LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)

ABSTENTION

Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703791", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 478.0, "ContributionID": 703791, "EditedText": "The result of the division is as follows: For 48, Against 69, Abstention 1.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result of the division is as follows: For 48, Against 69, Abstention 1.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703793", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 481.0, "ContributionID": 703793, "EditedText": "A motion in the name of the First Minister has been moved: That this Parliament agrees that Angus Mackay, Peter Peacock, Rhona Brankin, Nicol Stephen, Alasdair Morrison, Iain Gray, Iain Smith, John Home Robertson, Frank McAveety, Jackie Baillie, be appointed as junior Scottish Ministers.", "EditedTextHTML": "A motion in the name of the First Minister has been moved:

That this Parliament agrees that Angus Mackay, Peter Peacock, Rhona Brankin, Nicol Stephen, Alasdair Morrison, Iain Gray, Iain Smith, John Home Robertson, Frank McAveety, Jackie Baillie, be appointed as junior Scottish Ministers.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703795", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 485.0, "ContributionID": 703795, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703798", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 490.0, "ContributionID": 703798, "EditedText": "The result of the division is as follows: For 70, Against 41, Abstentions 7.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result of the division is as follows: For 70, Against 41, Abstentions 7.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C703808", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 509.0, "ContributionID": 703808, "EditedText": "It is not being heard then.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is not being heard then.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C703810", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 513.0, "ContributionID": 703810, "EditedText": "We were told this morning that the business motion was not going to be debated today.", "EditedTextHTML": "We were told this morning that the business motion was not going to be debated today.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703811", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 515.0, "ContributionID": 703811, "EditedText": "An amended business motion will be taken after the elections to the corporate body. Your point will be relevant then.", "EditedTextHTML": "An amended business motion will be taken after the elections to the corporate body. Your point will be relevant then.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703812", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26595, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 517.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 517.0, "ID": 26595, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 518.0, "ContributionID": 703812, "EditedText": "We now move to the election of members of the parliamentary corporation. We have received four nominations. In alphabetical order they are:", "EditedTextHTML": "We now move to the election of members of the parliamentary corporation. We have received four nominations. In alphabetical order they are:

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703813", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26595, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 517.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 517.0, "ID": 26595, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 520.0, "ContributionID": 703813, "EditedText": "Robert BrownDes McNultyAndrew WelshJohn Young", "EditedTextHTML": "Robert Brown
Des McNulty
Andrew Welsh
John Young

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703814", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26595, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 517.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 517.0, "ID": 26595, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 521.0, "ContributionID": 703814, "EditedText": "I would like to be able to say, \"Are we all agreed?\" and then to move on, but the standing orders will not allow me to do that; we have to go through the four separate voting procedures, as we did for the First Minister. I hope that the Procedures Committee will consider that issue very early on, but I am afraid that I am bound by the standing orders just as everyone else is.I will put each election to the Parliament. In the first, there will be four candidates. I trust that one will then be elected. There will follow a second election, with three candidates. I trust that one will be elected. There will then be a third election, with two candidates and one will be elected. Finally, there will be a fourth election, with one candidate. To establish the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body, it is necessary to have a quorum of voters in each election. I hope that that is quite clear. We shall now proceed to the first election. Members who want to vote for Robert Brown should press the yes button now. Those who do not want to vote for him can press the abstain button. Is that quite clear?", "EditedTextHTML": "I would like to be able to say, \"Are we all agreed?\" and then to move on, but the standing orders will not allow me to do that; we have to go through the four separate voting procedures, as we did for the First Minister. I hope that the Procedures Committee will consider that issue very early on, but I am afraid that I am bound by the standing orders just as everyone else is.

I will put each election to the Parliament. In the first, there will be four candidates. I trust that one will then be elected. There will follow a second election, with three candidates. I trust that one will be elected. There will then be a third election, with two candidates and one will be elected. Finally, there will be a fourth election, with one candidate. To establish the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body, it is necessary to have a quorum of voters in each election. I hope that that is quite clear.

We shall now proceed to the first election. Members who want to vote for Robert Brown should press the yes button now. Those who do not want to vote for him can press the abstain button. Is that quite clear?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703815", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26595, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 517.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 517.0, "ID": 26595, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 523.0, "ContributionID": 703815, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703817", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26595, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 517.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 517.0, "ID": 26595, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 527.0, "ContributionID": 703817, "EditedText": "We cannot have an adjournment, but I am very willing to go through the procedure more slowly. Let me be blunt about the procedure. It might not have happened that each party made one nomination, but, as that is what has happened, there is agreement on who should constitute the corporate body. All that I have to do is to ensure that the procedure is followed in accordance with the standing orders.", "EditedTextHTML": "We cannot have an adjournment, but I am very willing to go through the procedure more slowly.

Let me be blunt about the procedure. It might not have happened that each party made one nomination, but, as that is what has happened, there is agreement on who should constitute the corporate body. All that I have to do is to ensure that the procedure is followed in accordance with the standing orders.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703819", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26595, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 517.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 517.0, "ID": 26595, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 531.0, "ContributionID": 703819, "EditedText": "Is that any better?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is that any better?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1820E139P227C703820", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26595, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 517.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 517.0, "ID": 26595, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Curran, Margaret", "ID": 1820, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Baillieston" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Margaret Curran", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ms Curran: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 533.0, "ContributionID": 703820, "EditedText": "It is slightly better.", "EditedTextHTML": "It is slightly better.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703823", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26595, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 517.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 517.0, "ID": 26595, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 539.0, "ContributionID": 703823, "EditedText": "Mr McCabe, are you moving a motion to adjourn for two minutes?", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr McCabe, are you moving a motion to adjourn for two minutes?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1932E185P482C703825", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26595, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 517.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 517.0, "ID": 26595, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Crawford, Bruce", "ID": 1932, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Bruce Crawford", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Bruce Crawford: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 543.0, "ContributionID": 703825, "EditedText": "I second the motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "I second the motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703826", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26595, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 517.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 517.0, "ID": 26595, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 545.0, "ContributionID": 703826, "EditedText": "I accept the motion. We will adjourn for about two minutes. Will the four business managers meet in the well of the chamber.", "EditedTextHTML": "I accept the motion. We will adjourn for about two minutes. Will the four business managers meet in the well of the chamber.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703828", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26595, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 517.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 517.0, "ID": 26595, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 549.0, "ContributionID": 703828, "EditedText": "On resuming—", "EditedTextHTML": "On resuming—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703829", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26595, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 517.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 517.0, "ID": 26595, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 550.0, "ContributionID": 703829, "EditedText": "I trust that four successful tutorials have been held on this subject. We will try the procedure again. There are four nominations for the parliamentary corporate body, and there will be four separate elections. In the first, there are four candidates. Members who wish to vote for Robert Brown should do so by pressing the yes button now.", "EditedTextHTML": "I trust that four successful tutorials have been held on this subject. We will try the procedure again.

There are four nominations for the parliamentary corporate body, and there will be four separate elections. In the first, there are four candidates.
Members who wish to vote for Robert Brown should do so by pressing the yes button now.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703832", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26595, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 517.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 517.0, "ID": 26595, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 558.0, "ContributionID": 703832, "EditedText": "Members voted.", "EditedTextHTML": "Members voted.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703836", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26595, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 517.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 517.0, "ID": 26595, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 567.0, "ContributionID": 703836, "EditedText": "Members voted.", "EditedTextHTML": "Members voted.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703844", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26595, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 517.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 517.0, "ID": 26595, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 584.0, "ContributionID": 703844, "EditedText": "Members voted.", "EditedTextHTML": "Members voted.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703845", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26595, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 517.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 517.0, "ID": 26595, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 586.0, "ContributionID": 703845, "EditedText": "The time for voting is up. Anyone who wishes to abstain should press the abstain button now. The time for voting is up. The results in this round are as follows:", "EditedTextHTML": "The time for voting is up. Anyone who wishes to abstain should press the abstain button now.
The time for voting is up. The results in this round are as follows:

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703839", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26595, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 517.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 517.0, "ID": 26595, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 574.0, "ContributionID": 703839, "EditedText": "I declare that Robert Brown is elected. We now move into the second election, in which there are three candidates. They are: Des McNulty, Mr Andrew Welsh and John Young. There must be an easier way of doing this. Those who wish to vote for Des McNulty should press the yes button now.", "EditedTextHTML": "I declare that Robert Brown is elected.

We now move into the second election, in which there are three candidates. They are: Des McNulty, Mr Andrew Welsh and John Young. There must be an easier way of doing this. Those who wish to vote for Des McNulty should press the yes button now.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703840", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26595, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 517.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 517.0, "ID": 26595, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 576.0, "ContributionID": 703840, "EditedText": "Members voted.", "EditedTextHTML": "Members voted.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703841", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26595, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 517.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 517.0, "ID": 26595, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 578.0, "ContributionID": 703841, "EditedText": "The time for voting is up. Those who wish to vote for Mr Andrew Welsh should press the yes button now.", "EditedTextHTML": "The time for voting is up. Those who wish to vote for Mr Andrew Welsh should press the yes button now.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703843", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26595, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 517.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 517.0, "ID": 26595, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 582.0, "ContributionID": 703843, "EditedText": "The time for voting is up. Those who wish to vote for John Young should press the yes button now.", "EditedTextHTML": "The time for voting is up. Those who wish to vote for John Young should press the yes button now.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703846", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26595, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 517.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 517.0, "ID": 26595, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 590.0, "ContributionID": 703846, "EditedText": "Des McNulty 115Andrew Welsh 0John Young 0Abstentions 0VOTES FOR DES MCNULTY Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)Mackay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)(LD)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)", "EditedTextHTML": "Des McNulty 115
Andrew Welsh 0
John Young 0
Abstentions 0

VOTES FOR DES MCNULTY

Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Mackay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)
(LD)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)

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The result of that election is as follows:

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703854", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26595, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 517.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 517.0, "ID": 26595, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 606.0, "ContributionID": 703854, "EditedText": "Members voted.", "EditedTextHTML": "Members voted.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703855", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26595, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 517.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 517.0, "ID": 26595, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 608.0, "ContributionID": 703855, "EditedText": "The voting has ended. The result is as follows:", "EditedTextHTML": "The voting has ended. The result is as follows:

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703861", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sitting Days", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26596, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 613.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 613.0, "ID": 26596, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 621.0, "ContributionID": 703861, "EditedText": "Question agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Question agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703862", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sitting Days", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26596, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 613.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 613.0, "ID": 26596, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 622.0, "ContributionID": 703862, "EditedText": "I call Mr Tom McCabe. The debate will last no more than 30 minutes.", "EditedTextHTML": "I call Mr Tom McCabe. The debate will last no more than 30 minutes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703856", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26595, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 517.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 517.0, "ID": 26595, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 610.0, "ContributionID": 703856, "EditedText": "John Young 115Against 0Abstentions 0VOTES FOR JOHN YOUNG Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)Mackay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)(LD)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)", "EditedTextHTML": "John Young 115
Against 0
Abstentions 0

VOTES FOR JOHN YOUNG

Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Mackay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)
(LD)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703857", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body ", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26595, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 517.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 517.0, "ID": 26595, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 611.0, "ContributionID": 703857, "EditedText": "I declare that JohnYoung is elected. We now have a parliamentary corporate body.", "EditedTextHTML": "I declare that John

Young is elected. We now have a parliamentary corporate body.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6703757+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2228E151P202C703863", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sitting Days", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26596, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 613.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 613.0, "ID": 26596, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McCabe, Tom", "ID": 2228, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Tom McCabe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McCabe: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 624.0, "ContributionID": 703863, "EditedText": "Rule 2.1.3 requires that the days on which the office of the clerk is to be open shall be agreed by the Parliament on a motion of the Parliamentary Bureau and that until the Parliament has so decided, the Presiding Officer should appoint those days. The Presiding Officer has announced, through the business bulletin, that Wednesday 12 May to Friday 14 May, and Monday 17 May to Friday 21 May should be days on which the office of the clerk is open. This motion seeks the Parliament's agreement to the days until mid-June on which the office of the clerk should be open. I should make it clear that I am speaking on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau. It may be helpful if I explain briefly the significance of the office of the clerk being open. The Parliament normally meets only on sitting days. The standing orders define sitting days by reference to the days on which the office of the clerk is open. That is why weekends are not included in the motion. The omission from this motion of 28 May and 31 May means that the office of the clerk will be closed on those public holidays and that those days are not sitting days. The Parliamentary Bureau will continue to consider the timing of the parliamentary recess as required under rule 2.3 of the standing orders, and a motion will be brought to the Parliament in due course. In the meantime, I hope that this motion clarifies the situation until mid-June. I move,That the office of the Clerk should be open on each of the following days: Monday 24 to Thursday 27 May, Tuesday 1 to Friday 4 June, Monday 7 to Friday 11 June and Monday 14 to Friday 18 June.", "EditedTextHTML": "Rule 2.1.3 requires that the days on which the office of the clerk is to be open shall be agreed by the Parliament on a motion of the Parliamentary Bureau and that until the Parliament has so decided, the Presiding Officer should appoint those days. The Presiding Officer has announced, through the business bulletin, that Wednesday 12 May to Friday 14 May, and Monday 17 May to Friday 21 May should be days on which the office of the clerk is open. This motion seeks the Parliament's agreement to the days until mid-June on which the office of the clerk should be open. I should make it clear that I am speaking on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau.

It may be helpful if I explain briefly the significance of the office of the clerk being open. The Parliament normally meets only on sitting days. The standing orders define sitting days by reference to the days on which the office of the clerk is open. That is why weekends are not included in the motion. The omission from this motion of 28 May and 31 May means that the office of the clerk will be closed on those public holidays and that those days are not sitting days.

The Parliamentary Bureau will continue to consider the timing of the parliamentary recess as required under rule 2.3 of the standing orders, and a motion will be brought to the Parliament in due course. In the meantime, I hope that this motion clarifies the situation until mid-June.

I move,

That the office of the Clerk should be open on each of the following days: Monday 24 to Thursday 27 May, Tuesday 1 to Friday 4 June, Monday 7 to Friday 11 June

and Monday 14 to Friday 18 June.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2228E151P202C703876", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sitting Days", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26596, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 613.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 613.0, "ID": 26596, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McCabe, Tom", "ID": 2228, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Tom McCabe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McCabe: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 659.0, "ContributionID": 703876, "EditedText": "I made it clear that there is no will on behalf of the Executive to stifle debate, and if a mechanism can be found that is legal and complies with the requirements of the Scotland Act 1998, we will investigate it and try our best to put it in place. I stress again that there is no desire to stifle debate, but the advice that has been given is not helpful at the moment. We will do our best to correct that advice.", "EditedTextHTML": "I made it clear that there is no will on behalf of the Executive to stifle debate, and if a mechanism can be found that is legal and complies with the requirements of the Scotland Act 1998, we will investigate it and try our best to put it in place. I stress again that there is no desire to stifle debate, but the advice that has been given is not helpful at the moment. We will do our best to correct that advice.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C703877", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sitting Days", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26596, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 613.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 613.0, "ID": 26596, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 661.0, "ContributionID": 703877, "EditedText": "Is Mr McCabe saying that the legal advice is that it would be illegal for members of the Executive to answer members' questions in this Parliament? Is the legal advice that that practice would be illegal until such time as the Executive gets legal competence?", "EditedTextHTML": "Is Mr McCabe saying that the legal advice is that it would be illegal for members of the Executive to answer members' questions in this Parliament? Is the legal advice that that practice would be illegal until such time as the Executive gets legal competence?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2228E151P202C703878", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sitting Days", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26596, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 613.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 613.0, "ID": 26596, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McCabe, Tom", "ID": 2228, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Tom McCabe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McCabe: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 663.0, "ContributionID": 703878, "EditedText": "The advice is that it would not be competent for that to be done until such time as the powers pass to the ministers. As I have already said, the advice is that once those powers pass, eight days must be allowed for questions to lie on the table before answers can be given. I have already stressed that no party on the Parliamentary Bureau is happy with that situation and we are investigating ways by which it can be corrected.", "EditedTextHTML": "The advice is that it would not be competent for that to be done until such time as the powers pass to the ministers. As I have already said, the advice is that once those powers pass, eight days must be allowed for questions to lie on the table before answers can be given. I have already stressed that no party on the Parliamentary Bureau is happy with that situation and we are investigating ways by which it can be corrected.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2106E131P320C703879", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sitting Days", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26596, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 613.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 613.0, "ID": 26596, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Raffan, Mr Keith", "ID": 2106, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Keith Raffan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Keith Raffan (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 665.0, "ContributionID": 703879, "EditedText": "If powers are not transferring to the new ministers until 1 July, presumably if we have casework or questions that we wish to raise we raise them with the existing Scottish Office ministers?", "EditedTextHTML": "If powers are not transferring to the new ministers until 1 July, presumably if we have casework or questions that we wish to raise we raise them with the existing Scottish Office ministers?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2228E151P202C703880", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sitting Days", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26596, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 613.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 613.0, "ID": 26596, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McCabe, Tom", "ID": 2228, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Minister for Parliament", "SpeakerName": "Tom McCabe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr McCabe: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 667.0, "ContributionID": 703880, "EditedText": "I understand that that is the case.", "EditedTextHTML": "I understand that that is the case.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C703882", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sitting Days", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26596, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 613.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 613.0, "ID": 26596, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell (South of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 671.0, "ContributionID": 703882, "EditedText": "On a point of order, Mr Presiding Officer. It is my recollection that there was a discussion that the bureau had accepted that under rule 5.6(c) of the standing orders, members' business might be taken after decision time. I think that I am right in saying that that was discussed; therefore, there is a procedure by which motions can be lodged and discussed, because rule 5.6(c) allows a half-hour discussion every day. In my view, that is an inadequate step forward, but it is a step forward.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order, Mr Presiding Officer. It is my recollection that there was a discussion that the bureau had accepted that under rule 5.6(c) of the standing orders, members' business might be taken after decision time. I think that I am right in saying that that was discussed; therefore, there is a procedure by which motions can be lodged and discussed, because rule 5.6(c) allows a half-hour discussion every day. In my view, that is an inadequate step forward, but it is a step forward.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703883", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sitting Days", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26596, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 613.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 613.0, "ID": 26596, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 673.0, "ContributionID": 703883, "EditedText": "You are correct. Members can lodge questions for members' time, which is the half-hour after the end of the official business. What I cannot tell you—because we have not decided it yet—is when the next meetings will be, but there will be a half-hour debate on, for example, 8 June. That is a helpful point. We have now to put the question on the motion in the name of Mr Tom McCabe: That the office of the Clerk should be open on each of the following days: Monday 24 to Thursday 27 May, Tuesday 1 to Friday 4 June, Monday 7 to Friday 11 June and Monday 14 to Friday 18 June.", "EditedTextHTML": "You are correct. Members can lodge questions for members' time, which is the half-hour after the end of the official business. What I cannot tell you—because we have not decided it yet—is when the next meetings will be, but there will be a half-hour debate on, for example, 8 June. That is a helpful point.

We have now to put the question on the motion in the name of Mr Tom McCabe:

That the office of the Clerk should be open on each of the following days: Monday 24 to Thursday 27 May, Tuesday 1 to Friday 4 June, Monday 7 to Friday 11 June and Monday 14 to Friday 18 June.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703884", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sitting Days", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26596, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 613.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 613.0, "ID": 26596, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 675.0, "ContributionID": 703884, "EditedText": "Are we all agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "Are we all agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.70163+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C703866", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Sitting Days", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26596, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 613.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 613.0, "ID": 26596, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fergus Ewing (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 633.0, "ContributionID": 703866, "EditedText": "I welcome the fact that the days of opening of the office of the clerk have been published. What opportunity will there be— for all opposition parties and not just the Scottish Nationalists as the main opposition—to have substantive issues debated, such as the removal from Scottish jurisdiction of 6,000 square miles of fishing waters? This appears to have been carried out by stealth by Order in Council shortly before the election in which we were all engaged. The First Minister remarked that during the election campaign the SNP promised the sun, the moon and the stars. I would challenge that, but what is undoubtedly clear is that while we were all fighting an election campaign, London Labour was stealing Scotland's sea without any consultation with even members of the Scottish Fishermen's Federation—who are present here today and met with us at lunch time. They are anxious to meet with every other party in Scotland. There is a real sense of concern throughout Scotland that there should be a very early opportunity for every party to raise issues of substantive concern, such as the plight of Scottish fishermen and the serious implications that that order passed by stealth at Westminster will have in relation to prosecution under the English jurisdiction of Scottish fishermen, such as the impact of regulation of the fisheries industry and such as the fact that none of the bodies concerned appears to have been consulted. I would, finally, ask Mr McCabe to express concern about the fact that this Parliament, whose essence was to be consultation, should find itself in this situation where no consultation about such an important matter has taken place with any of the relevant bodies. Westminster passed that under a cloud of darkness and during an election campaign.", "EditedTextHTML": "I welcome the fact that the days of opening of the office of the clerk have been published. What opportunity will there be— for all opposition parties and not just the Scottish Nationalists as the main opposition—to have substantive issues debated, such as the removal from Scottish jurisdiction of 6,000 square miles of fishing waters? This appears to have been carried out by stealth by Order in Council shortly before the election in which we were all engaged.

The First Minister remarked that during the election campaign the SNP promised the sun, the moon and the stars. I would challenge that, but what is undoubtedly clear is that while we were all fighting an election campaign, London Labour was stealing Scotland's sea without any consultation with even members of the Scottish Fishermen's Federation—who are present here today and met with us at lunch time. They are anxious to meet with every other party in Scotland.

There is a real sense of concern throughout Scotland that there should be a very early opportunity for every party to raise issues of substantive concern, such as the plight of Scottish fishermen and the serious implications that that order passed by stealth at Westminster will have in relation to prosecution under the English jurisdiction of Scottish fishermen, such as the impact of regulation of the fisheries industry and such as the fact that none of the bodies concerned appears to have been consulted.

I would, finally, ask Mr McCabe to express concern about the fact that this Parliament, whose

essence was to be consultation, should find itself in this situation where no consultation about such an important matter has taken place with any of the relevant bodies. Westminster passed that under a cloud of darkness and during an election campaign.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:00:52.6390172+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2180E179P471C703624", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lochhead, Richard", "ID": 2180, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Lochhead", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Richard Lochhead: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 123.0, "ContributionID": 703624, "EditedText": "No, the button is pressed.In opposing the appointment of Ross Finnie, I wish to refer to recent developments in the fishing industry that have implications for the rural affairs portfolio. After 18 long years of Tory sell-outs in Westminster, Scotland's fishing industry has been keenly looking forward to the establishment of the Scottish Parliament, so that it has a forum where its voice is heard, and where the industry is not used merely as a bargaining chip. However, I fear that the appointment of Ross Finnie will do little to improve the fortunes of the fishing industry. The industry continues to suffer from backroom deals, whether those deals are made 500 miles away in London or around the corner from this chamber. New Labour has picked up where the Tories left off. A few days ago, it was revealed that Westminster had moved the English boundary 60 miles into Scottish waters, and, by the passing of an order in London, 6,000 square miles of Scottish waters had been stolen. The fishing industry now faces the prospect of the English-Scottish boundary being just east of Carnoustie. Even Ross Finnie, with his skills in accountancy, will be unable to make sense of that ridiculous situation.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, the button is pressed.

In opposing the appointment of Ross Finnie, I wish to refer to recent developments in the fishing industry that have implications for the rural affairs portfolio.

After 18 long years of Tory sell-outs in Westminster, Scotland's fishing industry has been keenly looking forward to the establishment of the Scottish Parliament, so that it has a forum where its voice is heard, and where the industry is not used merely as a bargaining chip. However, I fear that the appointment of Ross Finnie will do little to improve the fortunes of the fishing industry.

The industry continues to suffer from backroom deals, whether those deals are made 500 miles away in London or around the corner from this chamber. New Labour has picked up where the Tories left off. A few days ago, it was revealed that Westminster had moved the English boundary 60 miles into Scottish waters, and, by the passing of an order in London, 6,000 square miles of Scottish waters had been stolen. The fishing industry now faces the prospect of the English-Scottish boundary being just east of Carnoustie. Even Ross Finnie, with his skills in accountancy, will be unable to make sense of that ridiculous situation.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:31.1569345+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2180E179P471C703663", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Lochhead, Richard", "ID": 2180, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Richard Lochhead", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Richard Lochhead: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 210.0, "ContributionID": 703663, "EditedText": "If Mr Henry wants us to do things differently, perhaps the parties should fulfil their manifesto commitments for once.", "EditedTextHTML": "If Mr Henry wants us to do things differently, perhaps the parties should fulfil their manifesto commitments for once.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:31.1569345+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2133E222P520C703769", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Matheson, Michael", "ID": 2133, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Matheson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Matheson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 432.0, "ContributionID": 703769, "EditedText": "Will Dr Simpson give way?", "EditedTextHTML": "Will Dr Simpson give way?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-04-25T02:00:31.1569345+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2110E214P424C703760", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Junior Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26594, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 306.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 306.0, "ID": 26594, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gibson, Kenneth", "ID": 2110, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Kenneth Gibson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Gibson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 413.0, "ContributionID": 703760, "EditedText": "I asked for a yes or no answer, Mr Smith. Please give that answer.", "EditedTextHTML": "I asked for a yes or no answer, Mr Smith. Please give that answer.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:18:48.0221515+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C703679", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Swinney: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 245.0, "ContributionID": 703679, "EditedText": "Please excuse me—I would normally give way, but I have only two minutes. I worked in the business world before I became a full-time parliamentarian and when two companies came together there was always a debate on whether it was a merger or a takeover. I think all of us in the Parliament know that the coalition agreement was not a merger but a takeover: the Liberal Democrats were the wee party and the Labour party was the big party.", "EditedTextHTML": "Please excuse me—I would normally give way, but I have only two minutes. I worked in the business world before I became a full-time parliamentarian and when two companies came together there was always a debate on whether it was a merger or a takeover. I think all of us in the Parliament know that the coalition agreement was not a merger but a takeover: the Liberal Democrats were the wee party and the Labour party was the big party.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:17:36.376716+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C703599", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 19 May 1999", "ID": 4163 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-19T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Ministers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26593, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 9.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 9.0, "ID": 26593, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 67.0, "ContributionID": 703599, "EditedText": "Yesterday, I raised a point with you, Sir David, about the \"Partnership for Scotland\" document that has been put before Parliament by the coalition Administration. That is where I want to start, because it is at the root of the discussion that we are having today. The Parliament has got off to a very good start.It began its business with the dignified elections of the Presiding Officer and the First Minister, and the meetings were convened in a dignified way. However, I do not think that the Executive can be said to have got off to a particularly good start. It is important to remember the contents of \"Partnership for Scotland: An Agreement for the First Scottish Parliament\", which state what this Administration will put to the Parliament. The document covers a number of areas where the hopes that we had for this Parliament to be the start of a new politics in Scotland have been thwarted by the actions of the coalition Administration. Mr McLeish is a key minister in that Administration and is responsible for one of the most sensitive policy areas. His foreword to the consultative steering group report on the Scottish Parliament raised a great deal of hope in Scotland. He wrote: \"In all our deliberations we have been struck by the degree of consensus that exists. In particular, that the establishment of the Scottish Parliament offers the opportunity to put in place a new sort of democracy in Scotland, closer to the Scottish people and more in tune with Scottish needs. People in Scotland have high hopes for their Parliament, and in developing our proposals we have been keen to ensure that these hopes will be met. In particular, our recommendations envisage an open, accessible Parliament; a Parliament where power is shared with the people\". Where, in this \"Partnership for Scotland\"agreement, are the people who voted decisively for the abolition of tuition fees in the election on 6 May? They have been forgotten in the negotiations for the coalition Administration. We have before us a proposal on tuition fees that nobody had heard about and that nobody was offered on 6 May. It has been cobbled together so that this Administration could be formed and it excludes the clear and express opinion of people in Scotland that tuition fees should be abolished. The overwhelming majority of the members of this Parliament were elected to deliver on that opinion.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yesterday, I raised a point with you, Sir David, about the \"Partnership for Scotland\" document that has been put before Parliament by the coalition Administration. That is where I want to start, because it is at the root of the discussion that we are having today.

The Parliament has got off to a very good start.

It began its business with the dignified elections of the Presiding Officer and the First Minister, and the meetings were convened in a dignified way. However, I do not think that the Executive can be said to have got off to a particularly good start. It is important to remember the contents of \"Partnership for Scotland: An Agreement for the First Scottish Parliament\", which state what this Administration will put to the Parliament. The document covers a number of areas where the hopes that we had for this Parliament to be the start of a new politics in Scotland have been thwarted by the actions of the coalition Administration. Mr McLeish is a key minister in that

Administration and is responsible for one of the most sensitive policy areas. His foreword to the consultative steering group report on the Scottish Parliament raised a great deal of hope in Scotland. He wrote:

\"In all our deliberations we have been struck by the degree of consensus that exists. In particular, that the establishment of the Scottish Parliament offers the opportunity to put in place a new sort of democracy in Scotland, closer to the Scottish people and more in tune with Scottish needs. People in Scotland have high hopes for their Parliament, and in developing our proposals we have been keen to ensure that these hopes will be met. In particular, our recommendations envisage an open, accessible Parliament; a Parliament where power is shared with the people\".

Where, in this \"Partnership for Scotland\"

agreement, are the people who voted decisively for the abolition of tuition fees in the election on 6 May? They have been forgotten in the negotiations for the coalition Administration.

We have before us a proposal on tuition fees that nobody had heard about and that nobody was offered on 6 May. It has been cobbled together so that this Administration could be formed and it excludes the clear and express opinion of people in Scotland that tuition fees should be abolished. The overwhelming majority of the members of this Parliament were elected to deliver on that opinion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:14:54.5772891+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703509", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 May 1999", "ID": 4162 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Tuesday 18 May 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26589, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26589, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 3.0, "ContributionID": 703509, "EditedText": "Before the meeting begins, I take this opportunity to inform members that I am to chair the Commonwealth observer group to the elections in the Republic of South Africa, which are being held on Wednesday 2 June. I shall be out of the country from Monday 24 May until Friday 4 June and accordingly I trust that members will grant me leave of absence.", "EditedTextHTML": "Before the meeting begins, I take this opportunity to inform members that I am to chair the Commonwealth observer group to the elections in the Republic of South Africa, which are being held on Wednesday 2 June. I shall be out of the country from Monday 24 May until Friday 4 June and accordingly I trust that members will grant me leave of absence.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703512", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 May 1999", "ID": 4162 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law Officers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26590, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26590, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 10.0, "ContributionID": 703512, "EditedText": "I am certain that any such reference would be in order in tomorrow's debate and I would be surprised if there were not references to the document that you mentioned. Consideration of the First Minister's motion will take place in a moment and I will put the question on that motion no later than 30 minutes after it has been moved. That debate will be followed by a debate on the motion of Mr Alex Fergusson on the subject of prayers. The text of that motion was printed in today's business bulletin and I intend to put the question on it no later than one hour after it has been moved. In accordance with section 48(1) of the Scotland Act 1998 it is for the First Minister to recommend to Her Majesty the appointment of persons to be the Lord Advocate and Solicitor General for Scotland. Before doing so the First Minister must have the agreement of Parliament.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am certain that any such reference would be in order in tomorrow's debate and I would be surprised if there were not references to the document that you mentioned.

Consideration of the First Minister's motion will take place in a moment and I will put the question on that motion no later than 30 minutes after it has been moved. That debate will be followed by a debate on the motion of Mr Alex Fergusson on the subject of prayers. The text of that motion was printed in today's business bulletin and I intend to put the question on it no later than one hour after it has been moved.

In accordance with section 48(1) of the Scotland Act 1998 it is for the First Minister to recommend to Her Majesty the appointment of persons to be the Lord Advocate and Solicitor General for Scotland. Before doing so the First Minister must have the agreement of Parliament.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703514", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 May 1999", "ID": 4162 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law Officers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26590, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26590, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 15.0, "ContributionID": 703514, "EditedText": "Before I allow amendments to be moved, I should remind members that under rule 4.3 of the standing orders there are only two permissible amendments to this motion—to delete one or other part of the motion that relates to these two appointments. Although amendments can be moved without notice, members will be aware from the business bulletin that I have encouraged them to lodge notice of amendments and to intimate when they wish to speak in this debate. I took the view that that would help to ensure a sensible and orderly structure to the debate. Only one member has given notice that he wishes to speak. If any other members wish to speak, they should press their microphone button now and their names will come up on my screen.", "EditedTextHTML": "Before I allow amendments to be moved, I should remind members that under rule 4.3 of the standing orders there are only two permissible amendments to this motion—to delete one or other part of the motion that relates to these two appointments.

Although amendments can be moved without notice, members will be aware from the business bulletin that I have encouraged them to lodge

notice of amendments and to intimate when they wish to speak in this debate. I took the view that that would help to ensure a sensible and orderly structure to the debate. Only one member has given notice that he wishes to speak. If any other members wish to speak, they should press their microphone button now and their names will come up on my screen.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703519", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 May 1999", "ID": 4162 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law Officers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26590, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26590, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 27.0, "ContributionID": 703519, "EditedText": "If no other member wants to speak, it is time to put the question on the motion. Since it is the first time that we have voted on a motion, I will explain the procedure. In a moment, I shall put the question on the First Minister's motion. I will ask, first, whether we all agree to the question. Members should shout no at that point if they disagree to it. If there is no disagreement, the question is agreed to. If any member registers disagreement, we will move to an electronic vote.", "EditedTextHTML": "If no other member wants to speak, it is time to put the question on the motion. Since it is the first time that we have voted on a motion, I will explain the procedure. In a moment, I shall put the question on the First Minister's motion. I will ask, first, whether we all agree to the question. Members should shout no at that point if they disagree to it. If there is no disagreement, the question is agreed to. If any member registers disagreement, we will move to an electronic vote.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703521", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 May 1999", "ID": 4162 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law Officers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26590, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26590, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 30.0, "ContributionID": 703521, "EditedText": "That this Parliament agrees that it be recommended to Her Majesty that The Right Honourable The Lord Hardie QC be appointed as the Lord Advocate and that Colin Boyd QC be appointed as Solicitor General for Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "That this Parliament agrees that it be recommended to Her Majesty that The Right Honourable The Lord Hardie QC be appointed as the Lord Advocate and that Colin Boyd QC be appointed as Solicitor General for Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2205E42P161C703523", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 May 1999", "ID": 4162 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law Officers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26590, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26590, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Galbraith, Mr Sam", "ID": 2205, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Strathkelvin and Bearsden" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Sam Galbraith", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Sam Galbraith (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 33.0, "ContributionID": 703523, "EditedText": "They are coming. Applause.", "EditedTextHTML": "They are coming. [Applause.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C703524", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 May 1999", "ID": 4162 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law Officers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26590, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26590, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Alex Salmond (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 35.0, "ContributionID": 703524, "EditedText": "Send them down! Laughter.", "EditedTextHTML": "

Send them down! [Laughter.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1973E119P326C703529", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 May 1999", "ID": 4162 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Prayers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26591, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 37.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 37.0, "ID": 26591, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gorrie, Donald", "ID": 1973, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Donald Gorrie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Donald Gorrie (Central Scotland) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 50.0, "ContributionID": 703529, "EditedText": "I also would like to support the motion. It is a sign that there is more hope in this place than there is in Westminster that, when I raised the issue of having ecumenical prayers at Westminster, all I could do was table an early-day motion—which is neither early nor a motion, because nobody ever talks about it. However, I got 40 signatures. Here, Mr Fergusson can lodge a motion and we will debate it. That is a great step forward. There is also quite a lot of agreement. I am speaking as an individual, and the fact that I take a similar line to that of Alex Salmond has no political significance whatsoever. I emphasise the fact that I think that the prayers should be inclusive, interfaith and ecumenical. The prayers at Westminster are, frankly, awful. They are exclusive, Church of England from 1660, and, in my view, they are ritual of the worst sort. There is a great place for ritual when it is well done, but that type of ritual sends out the wrong message: that the Parliament is part of a Church of England plot. We must embrace all religions: all the Christian denominations and all the other faiths. As well as benefiting those members who wish to listen to prayers, it would send out to our fellow citizens the message that they are all welcomed and included, whatever their beliefs may be. When I pursued this matter before, the figures that I got from the library at the House of Commons indicated that about 30 per cent of the inhabitants of Scotland over the age of 15 are considered to be members of one of the faiths. The views of many other people are influenced by Christianity and by other faiths. Prayers would benefit those who come and enjoy them, if that is the right expression. The people who do not approve of prayers need not come, and will have two minutes more to drink some coffee. It does not benefit non-believers to deny believers the chance to benefit from their belief. It will not surprise members to learn, therefore, that I am in favour of proportional praying. Laughter. Although I have figures from the library, statistics about membership of religions are almost as dubious as statistics about membership of political parties. However, although the figures may need to be refined, I suggest that prayers should be allocated roughly in proportion to the number of adherents to a religion, whether it be Christianity or another religion, and each faith should have a certain number of days of praying over us. I do not think that we want a sort of bland, all- faith prayer; that would be awful. Each group should be allowed to have its say in its own style. For the benefit of many people who genuinely have no belief, there could be, on some days, a two-minute silence, when people could meditate. I have served on four councils, and have found the prayers conducted there helpful. They make one view one's opponents, and sometimes even one's colleagues, with more charity. Sometimes, I have moderated the venom of an attack on my opponents because something in a prayer caught my attention and made me think that I should not go over the top. So I think that prayers do some good. I reject the argument that, because the Parliament is a secular place of work, there should be no prayers. In the United States of America, there is a clear distinction between Church and state, but daily prayers are held in the Senate. In fact, a Scot, Peter Marshall, who was the chaplain there for many years, even became the hero of a Hollywood film because he was such a major contributor to the American scene. We must recognise our religious history. Much of that history is painful and some of it is disgraceful, but our Christian roots and the influence of other religions in Scotland have made us what we are. The good parts of religion, like the good parts of politics, harness the good parts of our life. We want a generous, all-embracing Scottish Parliament; not a mean-minded, petty and negative one. We would all gain from seeing other denominations and faiths in a positive light, and prayers in Parliament would give us the opportunity to do that.", "EditedTextHTML": "I also would like to support the motion. It is a sign that there is more hope in this place than there is in Westminster that, when I raised the issue of having ecumenical prayers at Westminster, all I could do was table an early-day motion—which is neither early nor a motion, because nobody ever talks about it. However, I got 40 signatures. Here, Mr Fergusson can lodge a motion and we will debate it. That is a great step forward.

There is also quite a lot of agreement. I am speaking as an individual, and the fact that I take a similar line to that of Alex Salmond has no political significance whatsoever. I emphasise the fact that I think that the prayers should be inclusive, interfaith and ecumenical. The prayers at Westminster are, frankly, awful. They are exclusive, Church of England from 1660, and, in my view, they are ritual of the worst sort. There is a great place for ritual when it is well done, but that type of ritual sends out the wrong message: that the Parliament is part of a Church of England plot.

We must embrace all religions: all the Christian denominations and all the other faiths. As well as benefiting those members who wish to listen to prayers, it would send out to our fellow citizens the message that they are all welcomed and included, whatever their beliefs may be.

When I pursued this matter before, the figures that I got from the library at the House of Commons indicated that about 30 per cent of the inhabitants of Scotland over the age of 15 are considered to be members of one of the faiths. The views of many other people are influenced by Christianity and by other faiths.

Prayers would benefit those who come and enjoy them, if that is the right expression. The people who do not approve of prayers need not come, and will have two minutes more to drink some coffee. It does not benefit non-believers to deny believers the chance to benefit from their belief.

It will not surprise members to learn, therefore, that I am in favour of proportional praying. [Laughter.] Although I have figures from the library, statistics about membership of religions are almost as dubious as statistics about membership of political parties. However, although the figures may need to be refined, I suggest that prayers should be allocated roughly in proportion to the number of adherents to a religion, whether it be Christianity or another religion, and each faith should have a certain number of days of praying over us.

I do not think that we want a sort of bland, all- faith prayer; that would be awful. Each group should be allowed to have its say in its own style. For the benefit of many people who genuinely have no belief, there could be, on some days, a two-minute silence, when people could meditate.

I have served on four councils, and have found the prayers conducted there helpful. They make one view one's opponents, and sometimes even one's colleagues, with more charity. Sometimes, I have moderated the venom of an attack on my opponents because something in a prayer caught my attention and made me think that I should not go over the top. So I think that prayers do some good.

I reject the argument that, because the Parliament is a secular place of work, there should be no prayers. In the United States of America, there is a clear distinction between Church and state, but daily prayers are held in the Senate. In

fact, a Scot, Peter Marshall, who was the chaplain there for many years, even became the hero of a Hollywood film because he was such a major contributor to the American scene.

We must recognise our religious history. Much of that history is painful and some of it is disgraceful, but our Christian roots and the influence of other religions in Scotland have made us what we are.

The good parts of religion, like the good parts of politics, harness the good parts of our life. We want a generous, all-embracing Scottish Parliament; not a mean-minded, petty and negative one. We would all gain from seeing other denominations and faiths in a positive light, and prayers in Parliament would give us the opportunity to do that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1762E216P508C703531", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 May 1999", "ID": 4162 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Prayers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26591, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 37.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 37.0, "ID": 26591, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Elder, Dorothy-Grace", "ID": 1762, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dorothy-Grace Elder (Glasgow) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 56.0, "ContributionID": 703531, "EditedText": "Speaking as a poor sinner, which, of course, we all are, I would say that there should definitely be an element of spirituality in this Parliament. It is not just a matter of personal conscience. It is a matter of what the people of Scotland, of the majority of all faiths, want. That was very apparent to me in Glasgow Baillieston and in all parts of the city of Glasgow. There is a shocking thing in this Parliament. Spot the window—up there in the gallery. That stained-glass window has been known to me all my life. When I sat in the front row, where Mr Dewar is now, as a reporter at Church of Scotland general assemblies, I used to look up at that window. What has happened? A blind has been drawn halfway down the window so that the figure of Christ is beheaded. That is not good enough. We should not start a Parliament with that, not in anyone's religion. I call for multifaith prayers. The major religions of the world usually operate in units of 10 on the sin front. Some of the major religions of China, for instance, adhere to the 10 courts of hell. I do not recommend any of us trying those as a holiday destination. It is quite simple, however, to have a form of prayer that suits everyone. I strongly recommend that we have that touch of spirituality and that we do not descend entirely into the secular in this age. What is this age? We are approaching some form of a new age of darkness, of witchcraft, with all sorts of crackpots getting in on the scene. Laughter. Not just in this Parliament, ladies and gentlemen. Seriously, we have weird forms of witchcraft affecting children in this age. It is not good enough. It is not the Scottish way, and it is not the way of all the other people who have joined us in Scotland. Please, spare some time for a wee bit of spirituality before we all get stuck into each other.", "EditedTextHTML": "Speaking as a poor sinner, which, of course, we all are, I would say that there should definitely be an element of spirituality in this Parliament. It is not just a matter of personal conscience. It is a matter of what the people of Scotland, of the majority of all faiths, want. That was very apparent to me in Glasgow Baillieston and in all parts of the city of Glasgow.

There is a shocking thing in this Parliament. Spot the window—up there in the gallery. That stained-glass window has been known to me all my life. When I sat in the front row, where Mr Dewar is now, as a reporter at Church of Scotland general assemblies, I used to look up at that window. What has happened? A blind has been drawn halfway down the window so that the figure of Christ is beheaded. That is not good enough. We should not start a Parliament with that, not in anyone's religion.

I call for multifaith prayers. The major religions of the world usually operate in units of 10 on the sin front. Some of the major religions of China, for instance, adhere to the 10 courts of hell. I do not recommend any of us trying those as a holiday destination. It is quite simple, however, to have a form of prayer that suits everyone. I strongly recommend that we have that touch of spirituality and that we do not descend entirely into the secular in this age. What is this age? We are approaching some form of a new age of darkness, of witchcraft, with all sorts of crackpots getting in on the scene. [Laughter.] Not just in this Parliament, ladies and gentlemen.

Seriously, we have weird forms of witchcraft affecting children in this age. It is not good

enough. It is not the Scottish way, and it is not the way of all the other people who have joined us in Scotland. Please, spare some time for a wee bit of spirituality before we all get stuck into each other.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C703533", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 May 1999", "ID": 4162 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Prayers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26591, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 37.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 37.0, "ID": 26591, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell (South of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 62.0, "ContributionID": 703533, "EditedText": "I thought that I should rise to defend the Anglican tradition that my colleagues have criticised. As an Episcopalian, \"meaningless ritual\" is not a term I recognise. It might be helpful for Mr Salmond to receive a little more instruction in the Episcopal faith. We should recognise the history and symbolism of the building that we are in and the area in which it is situated. I suspect that I am the only member of this Parliament who was a student in the faculty of theology here, and the only one who worked for the Church of Scotland in this very hall at assembly time. The whole area is redolent of Church history in Scotland. This hall stands as a tribute to the disruption and to the faith of a whole community who went out with nothing at all in order to stand against arbitrary authority. Old St Paul's church, down the High Street, was closed in 1715 because of its resistance. Edinburgh has a strong Catholic tradition and a modern, dynamic living tradition of other faiths, including Muslims, Hindus and Sikhs. Mr Harper is right to refer to those other groups as well. I was a little alarmed by Mr McCabe's suggestion that we should already be taking this motion away and beginning to interfere with it in a bureaucratic fashion. Surely we should begin to build upon it, if the people who proposed it are prepared for the Parliamentary Bureau to take the best from it and, as Mr Harper has said, to interpret it in terms of other forms of event such as prayer or celebration. If we can build on the motion in terms of multifaith celebration—and I think that that is important—then the motion gives us an opportunity to start something happening rather than to stop and go backwards. I support the motion as one that will take this Parliament forward. It will recognise not only where we are, but who we are and how, as Annabel Goldie has said, we can be inspired, strengthened and perhaps directed as we do our work.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thought that I should rise to defend the Anglican tradition that my colleagues have criticised. As an Episcopalian, \"meaningless ritual\" is not a term I recognise. It might be helpful for Mr Salmond to receive a little more instruction in the Episcopal faith. We should recognise the history and symbolism of the building that we are in and the area in which it is situated. I suspect that I am the only member of this Parliament who was a student in the faculty of theology here, and the only one who worked for the Church of Scotland in this very hall at assembly time.

The whole area is redolent of Church history in Scotland. This hall stands as a tribute to the disruption and to the faith of a whole community who went out with nothing at all in order to stand against arbitrary authority. Old St Paul's church, down the High Street, was closed in 1715 because of its resistance. Edinburgh has a strong Catholic tradition and a modern, dynamic living tradition of other faiths, including Muslims, Hindus and Sikhs. Mr Harper is right to refer to those other groups as well.

I was a little alarmed by Mr McCabe's suggestion that we should already be taking this motion away and beginning to interfere with it in a bureaucratic fashion. Surely we should begin to build upon it, if the people who proposed it are prepared for the Parliamentary Bureau to take the best from it and, as Mr Harper has said, to interpret it in terms of other forms of event such as prayer or celebration. If we can build on the motion in terms of multifaith celebration—and I think that that is important—then the motion gives us an opportunity to start something happening rather than to stop and go backwards. I support the motion as one that will take this Parliament forward. It will recognise not only where we are, but who we are and how, as Annabel Goldie has said, we can be inspired, strengthened and perhaps directed as we do our work.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2090E83P266C703539", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 May 1999", "ID": 4162 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Prayers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26591, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 37.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 37.0, "ID": 26591, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McAllion, Mr John", "ID": 2090, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dundee East" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John McAllion", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr John McAllion (Dundee East) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 80.0, "ContributionID": 703539, "EditedText": "I was fascinated by Donald Gorrie's suggestion that interfaith prayers should be conducted on a proportional basis. Can we have an assurance that no two faiths would be able to form a coalition to impose their prayers on the rest of the faiths? Laughter. I am neither an Episcopalian nor a son of the manse. Other traditions should be heard in this debate. I went to St Aloysius primary in Springburn and St Augustine's secondary in Glasgow, so members will get an idea of the angle that I am coming from. Of course, there are not just Protestants and Catholics; there are also humanists. I know that some people will say that that is not possible in Scotland—that they are either Protestant humanists or Catholic humanists—but humanists' beliefs and traditions must be kept in mind. I would be reluctant to see a formal session of prayers start every meeting of the Parliament, in which all members were expected to take part, as happens in the House of Commons. That course leads to public displays of adherence to religion when, privately, many of the members who are present do not believe and are simply going through the motions. That would be a very bad way for this Parliament to start. We have to recognise that not only is Scotland multifaith, it contains people who do not have any faith in God. They have every right to hold that principle and to have their views respected. I would not like their rights to be imposed upon by a majority, even if there is a religious majority in the chamber, in this very noble building. I hope that there will be discussions between the parties on this subject and that it will be recognised that in Scotland there are non-religious as well as religious people, and that there are non-Christian as well as Christian groups. Above all, I hope that this Parliament will respect the religious views of individual members and will not impose on them rituals that may mean nothing to them.", "EditedTextHTML": "I was fascinated by Donald Gorrie's suggestion that interfaith prayers should be conducted on a proportional basis. Can we have an assurance that no two faiths would be able to form a coalition to impose their prayers on the rest of the faiths? [Laughter.]

I am neither an Episcopalian nor a son of the manse. Other traditions should be heard in this debate. I went to St Aloysius primary in Springburn and St Augustine's secondary in Glasgow, so members will get an idea of the angle that I am coming from. Of course, there are not just Protestants and Catholics; there are also humanists. I know that some people will say that that is not possible in Scotland—that they are either Protestant humanists or Catholic humanists—but humanists' beliefs and traditions must be kept in mind.

I would be reluctant to see a formal session of prayers start every meeting of the Parliament, in which all members were expected to take part, as happens in the House of Commons. That course leads to public displays of adherence to religion when, privately, many of the members who are present do not believe and are simply going through the motions. That would be a very bad way for this Parliament to start.

We have to recognise that not only is Scotland multifaith, it contains people who do not have any faith in God. They have every right to hold that principle and to have their views respected. I would not like their rights to be imposed upon by a majority, even if there is a religious majority in the chamber, in this very noble building. I hope that there will be discussions between the parties on this subject and that it will be recognised that in Scotland there are non-religious as well as religious people, and that there are non-Christian as well as Christian groups. Above all, I hope that this Parliament will respect the religious views of individual members and will not impose on them rituals that may mean nothing to them.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703541", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 May 1999", "ID": 4162 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Prayers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26591, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 37.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 37.0, "ID": 26591, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 85.0, "ContributionID": 703541, "EditedText": "Mr Fergusson, do you wish to reply to the debate?", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Fergusson, do you wish to reply to the debate?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1892E34P73C703547", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 May 1999", "ID": 4162 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Prayers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26591, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 37.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 37.0, "ID": 26591, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Fergusson, Alex", "ID": 1892, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Fergusson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Fergusson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 99.0, "ContributionID": 703547, "EditedText": "I was tempted, for a moment, to withdraw the motion, but only on the ground that any religious service is likely to be drowned out by the sound of members' pagers going off for most of the service, which would render any form of contemplation almost impossible. I am not minded to withdraw the motion, however, for the simple reason that many members have spoken in favour of it. I accept, to a certain extent, what the First Minister said about its wording. I tried to make it plain and was advised by the clerks earlier today that, if I made my intention plain in my opening remarks, any misunderstanding of the wording would be made up for. One misunderstanding was referred to by Dr Ewing. Coming from the deep south of Scotland, I thought that plenary was a splendid word to introduce to any motion but was rather horrified when a clerk pointed out to me that it would mean that prayers would take place once every four years. That would find 100 per cent approval in the chamber, no doubt. I made it plain in my opening remarks, however, that my sole intention is to ensure that prayers are said in one form or another, on a daily basis, at every meeting of the whole Parliament in the chamber.", "EditedTextHTML": "I was tempted, for a moment, to withdraw the motion, but only on the ground that any religious service is likely to be drowned out by the sound of members' pagers going off for most of the service, which would render any form of contemplation almost impossible.

I am not minded to withdraw the motion, however, for the simple reason that many members have spoken in favour of it. I accept, to a certain extent, what the First Minister said about its wording. I tried to make it plain and was advised by the clerks earlier today that, if I made my intention plain in my opening remarks, any misunderstanding of the wording would be made up for.

One misunderstanding was referred to by Dr Ewing. Coming from the deep south of Scotland, I thought that plenary was a splendid word to introduce to any motion but was rather horrified when a clerk pointed out to me that it would mean that prayers would take place once every four years. That would find 100 per cent approval in the chamber, no doubt. I made it plain in my opening remarks, however, that my sole intention is to ensure that prayers are said in one form or another, on a daily basis, at every meeting of the whole Parliament in the chamber.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703551", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 May 1999", "ID": 4162 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Prayers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26591, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 37.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 37.0, "ID": 26591, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 107.0, "ContributionID": 703551, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703552", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 May 1999", "ID": 4162 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Prayers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26591, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 37.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 37.0, "ID": 26591, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 109.0, "ContributionID": 703552, "EditedText": "Members will have to be a bit quicker on the draw. I shall repeat the question. Are we all agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "Members will have to be a bit quicker on the draw. I shall repeat the question. Are we all agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703554", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 May 1999", "ID": 4162 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Prayers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26591, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 37.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 37.0, "ID": 26591, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 113.0, "ContributionID": 703554, "EditedText": "In that case, there will be a division.", "EditedTextHTML": "In that case, there will be a division.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C703555", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 May 1999", "ID": 4162 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Prayers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26591, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 37.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 37.0, "ID": 26591, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 115.0, "ContributionID": 703555, "EditedText": "On a point of order, Mr Presiding Officer. Under the standing orders, is it feasible to accommodate some of the amendments that have been suggested, so that Mr Dewar's point can be included at this stage?", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order, Mr Presiding Officer. Under the standing orders, is it feasible to accommodate some of the amendments that have been suggested, so that Mr Dewar's point can be included at this stage?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703556", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 May 1999", "ID": 4162 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Prayers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26591, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 37.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 37.0, "ID": 26591, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 117.0, "ContributionID": 703556, "EditedText": "No. Amendments to a substantive motion must be lodged beforehand. The First Minister was tempting me to rule on the interpretation of the words, which I hesitate to do, but I can say that the bureau is bound to take into account the words spoken in the debate. That lets me off the hook of trying to interpret them. I have to put the question, because Mr Fergusson has not withdrawn the motion. Those who believe that it should be withdrawn or who do not want it to pass should shout no. Are we all agreed?", "EditedTextHTML": "No. Amendments to a substantive motion must be lodged beforehand. The First Minister was tempting me to rule on the interpretation of the words, which I hesitate to do, but I can say that the bureau is bound to take into account the words spoken in the debate. That lets me off the hook of trying to interpret them.

I have to put the question, because Mr Fergusson has not withdrawn the motion. Those who believe that it should be withdrawn or who do not want it to pass should shout no.

Are we all agreed?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1854E38P164C703564", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 May 1999", "ID": 4162 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Prayers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26591, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 37.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 37.0, "ID": 26591, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Godman, Trish", "ID": 1854, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "West Renfrewshire" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Trish Godman", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Trish Godman (West Renfrewshire) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 130.0, "ContributionID": 703564, "EditedText": "On a point of order, Mr Presiding Officer. I am sorry— and it is not your fault—but we cannot hear you from here.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order, Mr Presiding Officer. I am sorry— and it is not your fault—but we cannot hear you from here.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703565", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 May 1999", "ID": 4162 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Prayers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26591, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 37.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 37.0, "ID": 26591, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 132.0, "ContributionID": 703565, "EditedText": "I will ensure that that problem is investigated tomorrow, as it is very important that members are able to hear me everywhere.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will ensure that that problem is investigated tomorrow, as it is very important that members are able to hear me everywhere.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703566", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 May 1999", "ID": 4162 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Prayers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26591, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 37.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 37.0, "ID": 26591, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 134.0, "ContributionID": 703566, "EditedText": "Meeting closed at 15:36.", "EditedTextHTML": "Meeting closed at 15:36.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2098E292P528C703511", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 May 1999", "ID": 4162 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law Officers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26590, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26590, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Swinney, John", "ID": 2098, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North Tayside" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "John Swinney", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 8.0, "ContributionID": 703511, "EditedText": "On a point of order, Presiding Officer. Could you give me some guidance on the process following the election of the First Minister? I collected a copy of the document \"Partnership for Scotland\" from the document office earlier today. It contains the agreement that underpins the appointments that we will be asked to approve in Parliament tomorrow. Will we have the opportunity to debate the contents of that document and its proximity to the election manifestos of the two parties that have supported this agreement before we are asked at tomorrow's meeting to support the nominees who will be put before us in the motion that has been tabled by the right hon Donald Dewar?", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order, Presiding Officer. Could you give me some guidance on the process following the election of the First Minister? I collected a copy of the document \"Partnership for Scotland\" from the document office earlier today. It contains the agreement that underpins the appointments that we will be asked to approve in Parliament tomorrow. Will we have the opportunity to debate the contents of that document and its proximity to the election manifestos of the two parties that have supported this agreement before we are asked at tomorrow's meeting to support the nominees who will be put before us in the motion that has been tabled by the right hon Donald Dewar?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-21T02:12:28.4701587+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703510", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 May 1999", "ID": 4162 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law Officers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26590, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26590, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 6.0, "ContributionID": 703510, "EditedText": "I must inform Parliament that there is an error in the business bulletin. The meeting tomorrow will begin at 10 am and not at 9.30 am as was stated. I begin the proceedings this afternoon by informing members that Her Majesty has appointed the Parliament's nominee, the right hon Donald Dewar, as First Minister. The first business is a debate on a motion of the First Minister concerning the appointment of the law officers. Notice of the motion was given on Monday and was published in today's business bulletin.", "EditedTextHTML": "I must inform Parliament that there is an error in the business bulletin. The meeting tomorrow will begin at 10 am and not at

9.30 am as was stated. I begin the proceedings this afternoon by informing members that Her Majesty has appointed the Parliament's nominee, the right hon Donald Dewar, as First Minister.

The first business is a debate on a motion of the First Minister concerning the appointment of the law officers. Notice of the motion was given on Monday and was published in today's business bulletin.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703517", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 May 1999", "ID": 4162 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law Officers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26590, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26590, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 23.0, "ContributionID": 703517, "EditedText": "I will ask the First Minister to respond to that but I preface his remarks by saying that a timetable for questions has yet to be discussed by the Parliamentary Bureau. The law officers will obviously be included in that rota. Does the First Minister wish to add anything?", "EditedTextHTML": "I will ask the First Minister to respond to that but I preface his remarks by saying that a timetable for questions has yet to be discussed by the Parliamentary Bureau. The law officers will obviously be included in that rota. Does the First Minister wish to add anything?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C703518", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 May 1999", "ID": 4162 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law Officers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26590, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26590, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 25.0, "ContributionID": 703518, "EditedText": "As Sir David said, there is to be discussion about the arrangements for question time. The consultative steering group report envisaged that there would be questions to the First Minister but that he would come to question time with a team of ministers—the questions would be answered as appropriate. I assure colleagues that—assuming that the business of the courts permits it—the law officers will deal in Parliament with the appropriate questions that have been lodged. The matter of the House of Lords is for Lord Hardie to determine, but he is very determined and, with the transfer that I hope will be agreed in the next few minutes, he has committed himself to serving in Scotland and this Parliament. I do not wish to tempt Mr McLetchie into further details but I do not recognise the examples to which he referred. I say quite definitively that there has been a fine tradition under all Administrations of ensuring that the prosecution policy followed by the law officers is independent of the political wing of the Government. We have endeavoured to adhere to that very strictly, as have all Administrations that I have known. I would be sorry if dark suspicions were harboured in the mind of the leader of the Conservative party. Perhaps he will take that up with me privately.", "EditedTextHTML": "As Sir David said, there is to be discussion about the arrangements for question time. The consultative steering group report envisaged that there would be questions to the First Minister but that he would come to question time with a team of ministers—the questions would be answered as appropriate. I assure colleagues that—assuming that the business of the courts permits it—the law officers will deal in Parliament with the appropriate questions that have been lodged. The matter of the House of Lords is for Lord Hardie to determine, but he is very determined and, with the transfer that I hope will be agreed in the next few minutes, he has committed himself to serving in Scotland and this Parliament.

I do not wish to tempt Mr McLetchie into further details but I do not recognise the examples to which he referred. I say quite definitively that there has been a fine tradition under all Administrations of ensuring that the prosecution policy followed by the law officers is independent of the political wing

of the Government. We have endeavoured to adhere to that very strictly, as have all Administrations that I have known. I would be sorry if dark suspicions were harboured in the mind of the leader of the Conservative party. Perhaps he will take that up with me privately.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1892E34P73C703526", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 May 1999", "ID": 4162 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Prayers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26591, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 37.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 37.0, "ID": 26591, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Fergusson, Alex", "ID": 1892, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Fergusson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Fergusson (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 41.0, "ContributionID": 703526, "EditedText": "In moving the motion, may I first clarify any confusion over its wording by stating quite clearly that my intention is to ensure that prayers are said, in one form or another, on a daily basis, at every meeting of the whole Parliament within this chamber. Much has been made in the past week of the fact that during the inaugural meeting of the Parliament about one third of MSPs chose to make the affirmation rather than take the oath. It has not been pointed out as strongly that two thirds of us chose to take the oath. Some 86 of us preferred to swear our allegiance in the name of God. I, like you, Sir David, am a son of the manse. I was, therefore, brought up in a Christian, God- fearing household, although I admit that for much of my early upbringing I tended to fear the wrath of my father on earth rather more than that of my father in heaven. None the less, throughout the years I have found the occasional moment of prayer or simply of quiet and reflective thought to be of great assistance in my daily business. My motion today, however, is not born purely of personal preference or desire. Rather, that desire was reinforced during the build-up to the election on 6 May by the surprisingly large number of people who voiced their concern on this subject to me, having read the various rumours in the press, among them one that suggested that there would be no room for prayers at all in the daily business of this Parliament. Great play has rightly been made of the concept of this Parliament, and its committees, being able to call on the help of others from outwith its ranks for advice and guidance on any issue that falls within its remit. It seems entirely appropriate, therefore, that this Parliament, particularly as it meets in the assembly building of the Church of Scotland, should ask for a little daily advice and guidance from the greatest expert of all. This is not a party political matter; it is a question of getting our priorities right. To my mind, a Parliament that meets without prayer is not respectful or complete. Therefore, as a matter of urgency, I move, That this Parliament agrees in principle for Prayers to be held on a non-denominational basis, at the start of each plenary session of the Parliament, and remits to the Parliamentary Bureau to make arrangements therefor and to come forward to the Parliament with recommendations speedily.", "EditedTextHTML": "In moving the motion, may I first clarify any confusion over its wording by stating quite clearly that my intention is to ensure that prayers are said, in one form or another, on a daily basis, at every meeting of the whole Parliament within this chamber.

Much has been made in the past week of the fact that during the inaugural meeting of the Parliament about one third of MSPs chose to make the affirmation rather than take the oath. It has not been pointed out as strongly that two thirds of us chose to take the oath. Some 86 of us preferred to swear our allegiance in the name of God.

I, like you, Sir David, am a son of the manse. I was, therefore, brought up in a Christian, God- fearing household, although I admit that for much of my early upbringing I tended to fear the wrath of my father on earth rather more than that of my father in heaven. None the less, throughout the years I have found the occasional moment of prayer or simply of quiet and reflective thought to be of great assistance in my daily business.

My motion today, however, is not born purely of personal preference or desire. Rather, that desire was reinforced during the build-up to the election on 6 May by the surprisingly large number of people who voiced their concern on this subject to me, having read the various rumours in the press, among them one that suggested that there would be no room for prayers at all in the daily business of this Parliament.

Great play has rightly been made of the concept of this Parliament, and its committees, being able to call on the help of others from outwith its ranks

for advice and guidance on any issue that falls within its remit. It seems entirely appropriate, therefore, that this Parliament, particularly as it meets in the assembly building of the Church of Scotland, should ask for a little daily advice and guidance from the greatest expert of all.

This is not a party political matter; it is a question of getting our priorities right. To my mind, a Parliament that meets without prayer is not respectful or complete. Therefore, as a matter of urgency, I move,

That this Parliament agrees in principle for Prayers to be held on a non-denominational basis, at the start of each plenary session of the Parliament, and remits to the Parliamentary Bureau to make arrangements therefor and to come forward to the Parliament with recommendations speedily.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C703527", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 May 1999", "ID": 4162 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Prayers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26591, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 37.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 37.0, "ID": 26591, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Alex Salmond (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 44.0, "ContributionID": 703527, "EditedText": "I am sympathetic to the motion, but I start with a slight correction of Mr Fergusson's remarks. If someone decides to make an affirmation, it does not necessarily mean that they are not religious. There are a number of reasons why someone might wish to make an affirmation. A very religious person might choose the affirmation because they did not like the nature of the oath that they were asked to take. Perhaps Mr Fergusson will reflect on that point. I do not think that we should make assumptions about people's religious beliefs on the basis of whether they affirmed or swore an oath—and I speak as someone who swore the oath last week. I have three points to make. The first is that I speak as an individual. This is a matter of conscience and should be the subject of a free vote for all parties and members. There are some aspects of the motion that I hope the mover will want to confirm. When Mr Fergusson talks about non-denominational, I think he means interfaith; in other words, relating not only to Christian denominations, but to the various other faiths in Scotland. It is important that this Parliament affirms that the Muslim, Hindu, Sikh and Jewish communities are important in the wider Scottish community and that, if we have some form of religious or other observance in our proceedings, it should encompass all the faiths of Scotland. I am sure that Mr Fergusson would not want to suggest that we are talking only about Christian denominations. My second point relates to an experience that I had earlier this year when I wrote to members of all of the faiths in Scotland to make a suggestion. The Episcopalian Bishop of Edinburgh took the opportunity of \"Thought for the Day\" to suggest that he was not in favour of religious observance. I found that quite interesting. It was a bit like the episode of \"Yes, Prime Minister\" when Jim Hacker was faced with appointing two Church of England bishops, neither of whom believed in God. I am not suggesting for a second that the Episcopalian Bishop of Edinburgh falls into that category, but I found it interesting that a cleric should take such a position. More interesting was that he took the opportunity of \"Thought for the Day\", as it is an opportunity allocated to representatives of all of the faiths by the BBC on the basis that it is important to have some sort of observance even among the various news topics of \"Good Morning Scotland\" and that there is a place for a minute or two's reflection. It was, therefore, interesting that the Bishop of Edinburgh chose that spot on BBC radio to deny that the concept of religious observance might have any validity in the proceedings of the Parliament. My third point is that those of us who have experience of the Westminster Parliament would not want to reproduce the nature of prayers in that institution, where they have been described as a meaningless ritual. That is not altogether true, because prayers in the Westminster Parliament can be meaningful as a means for people to reserve their seats for the day. However, I am not certain that that is the best reason for people to take part in what should be a solemn observance of worship. What I had in mind when I wrote to the various denominations and faiths was that there should be a time allocated within parliamentary proceedings, whether daily or weekly, when the religions and faiths in Scotland could be asked to provide a two- or three-minute thought for the day or for the week. That observation might go beyond the day- to-day events that we are debating, and might rise above some of the inter-party battles that we might get into, even in the new politics of this new Parliament. I thought that that would be a good thing, because it would show the strength of unity in diversity. It would be a good thing if the faiths of Scotland were to agree on such a formula. The last point that I want to make in support of Alex Fergusson's motion is that, when he sums up, he could indicate that this is not a matter for the Parliamentary Bureau alone, but that the Parliament should be taking advice from representatives of the faiths of Scotland. If they could come to us with an agreed formula— something like the daily or weekly observation, spread round the faiths of Scotland—that would be something that this Parliament would do well to consider. Our affirmation of the key role of all of the religions of Scotland in contributing something above and beyond the smoke and battle of politics could be very important indeed to our proceedings.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sympathetic to the motion, but I start with a slight correction of Mr Fergusson's remarks. If someone decides to make an affirmation, it does not necessarily mean that they are not religious. There are a number of reasons why someone might wish to make an affirmation. A very religious person might choose the affirmation because they did not like the nature of the oath that they were asked to take. Perhaps Mr Fergusson will reflect on that point. I do not think that we should make assumptions about people's religious beliefs on the basis of whether they affirmed or swore an oath—and I speak as someone who swore the oath last week.

I have three points to make. The first is that I speak as an individual. This is a matter of conscience and should be the subject of a free vote for all parties and members. There are some aspects of the motion that I hope the mover will want to confirm. When Mr Fergusson talks about non-denominational, I think he means interfaith; in other words, relating not only to Christian denominations, but to the various other faiths in Scotland. It is important that this Parliament affirms that the Muslim, Hindu, Sikh and Jewish communities are important in the wider Scottish community and that, if we have some form of religious or other observance in our proceedings, it should encompass all the faiths of Scotland. I am sure that Mr Fergusson would not want to suggest that we are talking only about Christian denominations.

My second point relates to an experience that I had earlier this year when I wrote to members of all of the faiths in Scotland to make a suggestion. The Episcopalian Bishop of Edinburgh took the opportunity of \"Thought for the Day\" to suggest that he was not in favour of religious observance. I found that quite interesting. It was a bit like the episode of \"Yes, Prime Minister\" when Jim Hacker was faced with appointing two Church of England bishops, neither of whom believed in God. I am not suggesting for a second that the Episcopalian Bishop of Edinburgh falls into that category, but I found it interesting that a cleric should take such a position. More interesting was that he took the opportunity of \"Thought for the Day\", as it is an opportunity allocated to representatives of all of the faiths by the BBC on the basis that it is important to have some sort of observance even among the various news topics of \"Good Morning Scotland\" and that there is a place for a minute or two's reflection. It was, therefore, interesting that the Bishop of Edinburgh chose that spot on BBC radio to deny that the concept of religious observance might have any validity in the proceedings of the Parliament.

My third point is that those of us who have experience of the Westminster Parliament would not want to reproduce the nature of prayers in that institution, where they have been described as a meaningless ritual. That is not altogether true, because prayers in the Westminster Parliament can be meaningful as a means for people to reserve their seats for the day. However, I am not certain that that is the best reason for people to take part in what should be a solemn observance of worship.

What I had in mind when I wrote to the various denominations and faiths was that there should be a time allocated within parliamentary proceedings, whether daily or weekly, when the religions and faiths in Scotland could be asked to provide a two- or three-minute thought for the day or for the week. That observation might go beyond the day- to-day events that we are debating, and might rise above some of the inter-party battles that we might get into, even in the new politics of this new Parliament. I thought that that would be a good thing, because it would show the strength of unity in diversity. It would be a good thing if the faiths of Scotland were to agree on such a formula.

The last point that I want to make in support of Alex Fergusson's motion is that, when he sums up, he could indicate that this is not a matter for the Parliamentary Bureau alone, but that the Parliament should be taking advice from representatives of the faiths of Scotland. If they could come to us with an agreed formula— something like the daily or weekly observation, spread round the faiths of Scotland—that would be something that this Parliament would do well to consider. Our affirmation of the key role of all of the religions of Scotland in contributing something above and beyond the smoke and battle of politics could be very important indeed to our proceedings.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1741E25P59C703528", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 May 1999", "ID": 4162 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Prayers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26591, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 37.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 37.0, "ID": 26591, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Goldie, Annabel", "ID": 1741, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "West of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Annabel Goldie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Miss Annabel Goldie (West of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 47.0, "ContributionID": 703528, "EditedText": "I listened with interest to what Mr Salmond said. It is important that all of us in the chamber do not get too bogged down by an apparent or deemed gravity. I have a lot of sympathy for what the motion proposes. My background is in no way remarkable in that respect; it is probably like that of several other members. I am a member of the Church of Scotland and an elder of the kirk. I have fruitlessly spent years trying to improve the political ways of the father of Ms Wendy Alexander, the member for Paisley North—without success. It is important that those of us here who have some sense of belief or religious adherence should be given the opportunity to draw from that belief or adherence, whatever it may be, the very comfort to which Mr Fergusson alluded, in an informal and, I hope, relaxed manner. My preference would be for that to be possible on a daily basis. There is an old Russian proverb that says if the thunder is not loud, the peasant does not cross himself. I am not suggesting that, in this chamber, we should await claps of thunder. However, I feel very strongly that challenges may lie ahead—and there I am in sympathy with Mr Salmond's view. I think that it is important for us to remember, as a fraternity, that we are people first and MSPs after that. While I am very much in sympathy with Mr Salmond's view on further consultation with the faiths, I believe that it is essential to keep the matter before us as simple as possible. To me, the simplicity is this: for those of us in this company who have a desire to seek some sort of comfort on a daily basis, it would be helpful, whatever our beliefs or adherences, to have that facility available within the Parliament. I support the motion.", "EditedTextHTML": "I listened with interest to what Mr Salmond said. It is important that all of us in the chamber do not get too bogged down by an apparent or deemed gravity. I have a lot of sympathy for what the motion proposes. My background is in no way remarkable in that respect; it is probably like that of several other members. I am a member of the Church of Scotland and an elder of the kirk. I have fruitlessly spent years trying to improve the political ways of the father of Ms Wendy Alexander, the member for Paisley North—without success.

It is important that those of us here who have some sense of belief or religious adherence should be given the opportunity to draw from that belief or adherence, whatever it may be, the very comfort to which Mr Fergusson alluded, in an informal and, I hope, relaxed manner. My preference would be for that to be possible on a daily basis. There is an old Russian proverb that says if the thunder is not loud, the peasant does not cross himself. I am not suggesting that, in this chamber, we should await claps of thunder. However, I feel very strongly that challenges may lie ahead—and there I am in sympathy with Mr Salmond's view.

I think that it is important for us to remember, as a fraternity, that we are people first and MSPs after that. While I am very much in sympathy with Mr Salmond's view on further consultation with the faiths, I believe that it is essential to keep the matter before us as simple as possible. To me, the simplicity is this: for those of us in this company who have a desire to seek some sort of comfort on a daily basis, it would be helpful, whatever our beliefs or adherences, to have that facility available within the Parliament.

I support the motion.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2188E70P92C703532", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 May 1999", "ID": 4162 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Prayers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26591, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 37.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 37.0, "ID": 26591, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harper, Robin", "ID": 2188, "PartyName": "Scottish Green Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Green", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robin Harper", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robin Harper (Lothians) (Green): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 59.0, "ContributionID": 703532, "EditedText": "I am on record in The Scotsman as supporting Alex Salmond's view. Some months ago, I suggested that we have a period of contemplation preceded by a talk from a representative of a religion, or even of a group, in Scottish life. That would achieve several things. First, the people of Scotland hope that this Parliament will be open and accessible. I cannot think of anything more accessible than for this Parliament to be addressed on a daily basis by somebody from outside, whether they be from different faiths or even from campaigning groups. People who wanted to perform that office would be queueing down to the Canongate Tolbooth within a few days of any announcement that that would happen. Secondly, such a talk followed by a period of quiet contemplation would have the advantage of enabling us to listen to our faiths in public, and to address our gods in private in whatever way we prefer. My suggestion is not a negative to the motion, because the motion does not state whether the prayers should be spoken or should be private and quiet. If this motion is passed, we could proceed to a parliamentary committee. If I were to be on that committee, which I would like to be, I would repeat my idea and would support that of Mr Salmond.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am on record in The Scotsman as supporting Alex Salmond's view. Some months ago, I suggested that we have a period of contemplation preceded by a talk from a representative of a religion, or even of a group, in Scottish life. That would achieve several things.

First, the people of Scotland hope that this Parliament will be open and accessible. I cannot think of anything more accessible than for this Parliament to be addressed on a daily basis by somebody from outside, whether they be from different faiths or even from campaigning groups. People who wanted to perform that office would be queueing down to the Canongate Tolbooth within a few days of any announcement that that would happen.

Secondly, such a talk followed by a period of quiet contemplation would have the advantage of enabling us to listen to our faiths in public, and to address our gods in private in whatever way we prefer. My suggestion is not a negative to the motion, because the motion does not state whether the prayers should be spoken or should be private and quiet. If this motion is passed, we could proceed to a parliamentary committee. If I were to be on that committee, which I would like to be, I would repeat my idea and would support that of Mr Salmond.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2108E50P256C703537", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 May 1999", "ID": 4162 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Prayers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26591, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 37.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 37.0, "ID": 26591, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Macintosh, Ken", "ID": 2108, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Eastwood" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ken Macintosh", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Kenneth Macintosh (Eastwood) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 74.0, "ContributionID": 703537, "EditedText": "received some help on this matter yesterday morning, in the form of a letter from my aunt. She suggested a daily prayer for me and all other MSPs. It is very brief. \"Give me the gift of swift retort And keep the public memory short.\"We should not be sending out the message that we are anti-Church or anti-religion. This is an inclusive Parliament and we should not be shutting out the Churches when they have a large contribution to make to our debate and to our society. We need to ensure that the Parliament recognises the spiritual, as well as the secular, needs of our community; we must also recognise that we live in a multicultural society and that our Parliament should reflect the different faiths in that society. Churches of all denominations are particularly active in Eastwood and they made their views known during the election campaign. Eastwood also has a sizeable Jewish community and a growing Muslim community. It is vital that we make a conscious effort to represent the views of those two communities, as well as those of the Christian tradition. Whatever the Parliament agrees today, we need to reflect that diversity of belief.", "EditedTextHTML": "received some help on this matter yesterday morning, in the form of a letter from my aunt. She suggested a daily prayer for me and all other MSPs. It is very brief.

\"Give me the gift of swift retort And keep the public memory short.\"

We should not be sending out the message that we are anti-Church or anti-religion. This is an inclusive Parliament and we should not be shutting out the Churches when they have a large contribution to make to our debate and to our society. We need to ensure that the Parliament recognises the spiritual, as well as the secular, needs of our community; we must also recognise that we live in a multicultural society and that our Parliament should reflect the different faiths in that society.

Churches of all denominations are particularly active in Eastwood and they made their views known during the election campaign. Eastwood also has a sizeable Jewish community and a growing Muslim community. It is vital that we make a conscious effort to represent the views of those two communities, as well as those of the Christian tradition. Whatever the Parliament agrees today, we need to reflect that diversity of belief.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C703544", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 May 1999", "ID": 4162 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Prayers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26591, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 37.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 37.0, "ID": 26591, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister (Donald Dewar): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 92.0, "ContributionID": 703544, "EditedText": "I managed to press the wrong button. It was an administrative triumph in my panic at seeing this debate being brought to a conclusion. On this occasion I speak as an individual and not in any other capacity. This has been an interesting debate. I have concerns about what we may be about to do. A large percentage of speakers have said that they do not want to recreate Westminster. There is a great danger that that is what we are going to do. Great stress has been placed on the religious traditions of Scotland. I am very well aware of them and, in an academic sense, I probably have a wider grasp of them than do many people. I am also very aware that many people do not have a religious faith, although they may welcome the possibility of a period of contemplation or a quiet period at the start of the day. It would be improper of me to embarrass members by asking them to declare by a show of hands whether they go to church every Sunday. I suspect that members do not differ markedly from the population of Scotland, in which case the proportion of the gathering here that go to church every Sunday will be around 15 per cent—I may be wrong, but I suspect that that is so. At Westminster, the vast majority of people who do not have a religious faith hang around in the corridor during prayers. As soon as prayers are over, there is an almighty rush to get into one's seat. There has to be a gap between the end of prayers and the start of business to allow the large majority of members—I suspect—to get to their seats. I raise that as a practical point as I think that that is what would emerge here. I think that there is a possibility of securing a quiet period for contemplation and reflection. An alternative to prayer was mentioned by Mr Salmond. That might be reasonable. My problem is that I cannot vote for the motion as I do not know what it means. I have been asked to vote for it on the basis that it does not mean what it says. If we believe that we should have a period of quiet contemplation—several people, including Mr Harper, referred to that—we cannot vote for the motion. The motion, which will presumably be binding on the Parliament and the bureau, specifies prayer. It is clear that prayers and variations on them are meant, not a quiet talk or a humanist talking about his point of view— those are not prayers. We have been told that the prayers should be interfaith, not interdenominational, but the motion says \"nondenominational\". I have some respect for motions and I believe that voting for a motion endorses the meaning of the words that the motion uses.", "EditedTextHTML": "I managed to press the wrong button. It was an administrative triumph in my panic at seeing this debate being brought to a conclusion.

On this occasion I speak as an individual and not in any other capacity. This has been an interesting debate. I have concerns about what we may be about to do. A large percentage of speakers have said that they do not want to recreate Westminster. There is a great danger that that is what we are going to do.

Great stress has been placed on the religious traditions of Scotland. I am very well aware of them and, in an academic sense, I probably have a wider grasp of them than do many people. I am also very aware that many people do not have a religious faith, although they may welcome the possibility of a period of contemplation or a quiet period at the start of the day. It would be improper of me to embarrass members by asking them to declare by a show of hands whether they go to church every Sunday. I suspect that members do not differ markedly from the population of Scotland, in which case the proportion of the gathering here that go to church every Sunday will be around 15 per cent—I may be wrong, but I suspect that that is so.

At Westminster, the vast majority of people who do not have a religious faith hang around in the corridor during prayers. As soon as prayers are over, there is an almighty rush to get into one's seat. There has to be a gap between the end of prayers and the start of business to allow the large majority of members—I suspect—to get to their seats. I raise that as a practical point as I think that that is what would emerge here.

I think that there is a possibility of securing a quiet period for contemplation and reflection. An alternative to prayer was mentioned by Mr Salmond. That might be reasonable.

My problem is that I cannot vote for the motion as I do not know what it means. I have been asked

to vote for it on the basis that it does not mean what it says. If we believe that we should have a period of quiet contemplation—several people, including Mr Harper, referred to that—we cannot vote for the motion. The motion, which will presumably be binding on the Parliament and the bureau, specifies prayer. It is clear that prayers and variations on them are meant, not a quiet talk or a humanist talking about his point of view— those are not prayers. We have been told that the prayers should be interfaith, not interdenominational, but the motion says \"nondenominational\". I have some respect for motions and I believe that voting for a motion endorses the meaning of the words that the motion uses.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C703546", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 May 1999", "ID": 4162 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Prayers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26591, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 37.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 37.0, "ID": 26591, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 96.0, "ContributionID": 703546, "EditedText": "That is Mr Salmond's interpretation of the motion. I do not intend to ask you to make a ruling, Sir David, but in the provisions to which I have referred the motion is very specific. There is not necessarily a great difference of opinion between members. I accept that there is a mood in the chamber that some arrangement should be made, but I am not sure that there should be prayers before every meeting. We will have facilities in the new Parliament building for religious observance and worship. Some of us might think that those who wish to have that kind of experience, help and satisfaction might want to go to a place that has been set aside for the purpose. That has to be considered. I am not openly hostile to the idea of prayers, but we should vote for something that is clear. That means that we should discuss the issue first and make a considered judgment before we reach a conclusion. We are all a little ambivalent about these matters. I was much entertained by Dr Ewing's account of her experience of having to pray in order to get a seat in the House of Commons. The implication of that was that if she could have got a seat without praying, she would have done so, and yet she stresses the absolute necessity of having prayers before every meeting. There is teasing out to be done—not as a delaying tactic. We should consider this matter further and sort out what we mean by prayers and non-denominational. Some thought should also be given to the location before we reach a final decision.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is Mr Salmond's interpretation of the motion. I do not intend to ask you to make a ruling, Sir David, but in the provisions to which I have referred the motion is very specific.

There is not necessarily a great difference of opinion between members. I accept that there is a mood in the chamber that some arrangement should be made, but I am not sure that there should be prayers before every meeting. We will have facilities in the new Parliament building for religious observance and worship. Some of us might think that those who wish to have that kind of experience, help and satisfaction might want to go to a place that has been set aside for the purpose. That has to be considered. I am not openly hostile to the idea of prayers, but we should vote for something that is clear. That means that we should discuss the issue first and make a considered judgment before we reach a conclusion.

We are all a little ambivalent about these matters. I was much entertained by Dr Ewing's account of her experience of having to pray in order to get a seat in the House of Commons. The implication of that was that if she could have got a seat without praying, she would have done so, and yet she stresses the absolute necessity of having prayers before every meeting.

There is teasing out to be done—not as a delaying tactic. We should consider this matter further and sort out what we mean by prayers and non-denominational. Some thought should also be given to the location before we reach a final decision.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703553", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 May 1999", "ID": 4162 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Prayers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26591, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 37.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 37.0, "ID": 26591, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 111.0, "ContributionID": 703553, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703557", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 May 1999", "ID": 4162 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Prayers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26591, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 37.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 37.0, "ID": 26591, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 119.0, "ContributionID": 703557, "EditedText": "No.", "EditedTextHTML": "No.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703558", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 May 1999", "ID": 4162 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Prayers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26591, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 37.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 37.0, "ID": 26591, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 121.0, "ContributionID": 703558, "EditedText": "In that case, there will be a division.", "EditedTextHTML": "In that case, there will be a division.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703561", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 May 1999", "ID": 4162 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Prayers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26591, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 37.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 37.0, "ID": 26591, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 126.0, "ContributionID": 703561, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703562", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 May 1999", "ID": 4162 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Prayers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26591, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 37.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 37.0, "ID": 26591, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 127.0, "ContributionID": 703562, "EditedText": "That this Parliament agrees in principle for Prayers to be held on a non-denominational basis, at the start of each plenary session of the Parliament, and remits to the Parliamentary Bureau to make arrangements therefor and to come forward to the Parliament with recommendations speedily.", "EditedTextHTML": "That this Parliament agrees in principle for Prayers to be held on a non-denominational basis, at the start of each plenary session of the Parliament, and remits to the Parliamentary Bureau to make arrangements therefor and to come forward to the Parliament with recommendations speedily.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703563", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 May 1999", "ID": 4162 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Prayers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26591, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 37.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 37.0, "ID": 26591, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 128.0, "ContributionID": 703563, "EditedText": "I anticipate that tomorrow's debate on the appointment of ministers may be slightly more contentious than the debates today. For that reason, I repeat the request of the bureau that members who want to speak should indicate that in the chamber office before 9 o'clock tomorrow morning. In the light of today's experience, that request is not just to help the Presiding Officer, but to help all members. We shall then be able to publish a list of the members who want to participate; everyone will know when they will be called and how many members want to speak. From today's experience, I think that one of the problems with the system is that no one except the occupant of the chair has any idea how many members are waiting to speak. I believe that it would be wise for members to adopt the bureau's procedure and to give notice of their wish to speak the day before. That does not exclude the right to speak during a debate—an important point—but, if everyone is to be called, it enables me to give guidance on the length of time for speeches. I hope that members will be patient in respect of my only other problem, which is that I sit here gazing at photographs to try to identify everyone. Some members have adopted my motto that the old ones are the best; it is not always easy to identify everyone.", "EditedTextHTML": "I anticipate that tomorrow's debate on the appointment of ministers may be slightly more contentious than the debates today. For that reason, I repeat the request of the bureau that members who want to speak should indicate that in the chamber office before 9 o'clock tomorrow morning.

In the light of today's experience, that request is not just to help the Presiding Officer, but to help all members. We shall then be able to publish a list of the members who want to participate; everyone will know when they will be called and how many members want to speak.

From today's experience, I think that one of the problems with the system is that no one except the occupant of the chair has any idea how many members are waiting to speak. I believe that it would be wise for members to adopt the bureau's procedure and to give notice of their wish to speak the day before. That does not exclude the right to speak during a debate—an important point—but, if everyone is to be called, it enables me to give guidance on the length of time for speeches.

I hope that members will be patient in respect of my only other problem, which is that I sit here gazing at photographs to try to identify everyone. Some members have adopted my motto that the old ones are the best; it is not always easy to identify everyone.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703508", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 May 1999", "ID": 4162 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Tuesday 18 May 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26589, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26589, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 2.0, "ContributionID": 703508, "EditedText": "THE PRESIDING OFFICER opened the meeting at 14:29", "EditedTextHTML": "[THE PRESIDING OFFICER opened the meeting at 14:29]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C703516", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 May 1999", "ID": 4162 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law Officers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26590, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26590, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan (Falkirk West): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 21.0, "ContributionID": 703516, "EditedText": "I support the appointment of Andrew Hardie and Colin Boyd as Lord Advocate and Solicitor General respectively. I wonder whether the First Minister or, if it is allowed, the Lord Advocate designate could explain how frequently the two law officers will appear in this Parliament to answer questions and to make statements. It has been a long time since the House of Commons had the opportunity of questioning either a Lord Advocate or a Solicitor General. I accept what was said about the independence of the Lord Advocate as public prosecutor but, as law officer for the Scottish Executive, he must have some accountability to this Parliament. Can the First Minister give us some indication of how often we can expect to see the Lord Advocate and the Solicitor General to put questions to them on behalf of our constituents and the people of Scotland generally? Andrew Hardie is a member of another Parliament; like you, Sir David, he is a member of the House of Lords. Could we have some assurance that his prime responsibility and first allegiance will be to this Parliament rather than to the House of Lords?", "EditedTextHTML": "I support the appointment of Andrew Hardie and Colin Boyd as Lord Advocate and Solicitor General respectively. I wonder whether the First Minister or, if it is allowed, the Lord Advocate designate could explain how frequently the two law officers will appear in this Parliament to answer questions and to make statements.

It has been a long time since the House of Commons had the opportunity of questioning either a Lord Advocate or a Solicitor General. I accept what was said about the independence of the Lord Advocate as public prosecutor but, as law officer for the Scottish Executive, he must have some accountability to this Parliament. Can the First Minister give us some indication of how often we can expect to see the Lord Advocate and the Solicitor General to put questions to them on behalf of our constituents and the people of Scotland generally?

Andrew Hardie is a member of another Parliament; like you, Sir David, he is a member of the House of Lords. Could we have some assurance that his prime responsibility and first allegiance will be to this Parliament rather than to the House of Lords?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C703513", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 May 1999", "ID": 4162 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law Officers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26590, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26590, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The First Minister (Donald Dewar): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 13.0, "ContributionID": 703513, "EditedText": "I do not regard this as a routine motion in any sense, but I hope that it is reasonably uncontentious—we will discover whether it is in the next few minutes. I am conscious of the fact that this is a short debate and that therefore it would be wrong of me to take too much time. However, I want to make it clear that the motion—which I have pleasure in moving—is to seek the agreement of the Parliament to the appointment of Andrew Hardie as Lord Advocate and Colin Boyd as Solicitor General for Scotland. If members agree to the motion, as First Minister I will recommend to Her Majesty that those appointments should be made. The Lord Advocate and Solicitor General for Scotland are currently the Scottish law officers in the United Kingdom Government but on 20 May— which is imminent—they will cease to be members of the UK Government and the offices will transfer to the Scottish Executive. That fact dictates the timing of this motion. The Scottish law officers will become members of the Scottish Executive on 20 May—before other Scottish ministers—because they have to be in place so that they can offer legal advice to the Executive in the run-up to 1 July, which is the day on which Parliament assumes its full powers. Arrangements have been made to ensure an appropriate distribution of the Lord Advocate's functions during the transitional period from 20 May to 1 July. As most members will know, the offices of Lord Advocate and Solicitor General have been with us for a long time. The office of Lord Advocate has existed since at least the 15th century. I think that the Solicitor General arrived late—somewhere around the 17th century—but the positions have been important parts of the administration of justice and of politics in Scotland for many years. They have been the power base; in fact, the office of Lord Advocate ran Scotland on many occasions and the Lord Advocate was very much the man of affairs for the government of the day. The offices are still central—in a different way— to the government of Scotland. They will continue to be the principal Scottish law officers—the Lord Advocate in particular, with the Solicitor General continuing to be his deputy—and they will work as a team. The functions conferred on the Scottish ministers generally can be exercised by any of them, but there are exceptions, the most important of which is the Lord Advocate, who will retain those functions that he exercises immediately before he ceases to be a minister of the Crown. Those retained functions, which are retained in statute, are functions that he will continue to exercise as a member of the Scottish Executive; they can be exercised only by the Lord Advocate and the Solicitor General. In other words, the functions cannot be passed around or swapped around—they remain firmly with the holders of those offices. That is significant in particular areas. The Lord Advocate will be the law officer to the Scottish Executive. His functions as law officer will be retained functions and will, as I said, include providing legal advice to the Scottish Executive and representing the Scottish Executive in legal proceedings. The Lord Advocate's role as the independent head of the systems of criminal prosecution and investigation of deaths in Scotland will also be a retained function. As most members will know, the independence of the Lord Advocate in that role is entrenched in the Scotland Act 1998. Section 48(5) confirms that the Lord Advocate's decisions as head of those systems must be taken independently. Section 29 provides that it is outwith the legislative competence of the Parliament to remove the Lord Advocate from his important independent position as head of the system of criminal prosecution. The Lord Advocate and the Solicitor General have to shoulder an onerous role, which is a bulwark of our justice system. That is the order of the day in the courts of Scotland—although, as we all know, there are sometimes spectaculars, such as the events that will shortly take place in Holland. However, I suspect that the Lockerbie trial will cease to be quite so contentious in parliamentary terms because we do not have Tam Dalyell with us—at least not in this forum. I stress to members that the Lord Advocate and the Solicitor General have full powers to serve on committees, to speak in debates and to answer questions in this Parliament. They lack one important power—the right to vote. Apart from that, they will, as I understand it, have a full sweep of activity—when it is judged appropriate and when their services are required. For the record, I should mention that there is now a new office of Advocate General for Scotland, which has been created by the Scotland Act 1998. The Prime Minister announced yesterday that Dr Lynda Clark would be the first Advocate General. I take this opportunity to offer her my congratulations—and I hope those of all members—on her appointment. The UK Government will require advice on Scots law— fairly frequently, I imagine—and it is not possible for the law officers who are answerable to the Scottish Executive to give advice to the United Kingdom Government. That is why this post has been created. I hope that this Parliament will confirm the law officers and that those law officers will add a great deal to our debates. I mentioned their sweep of responsibilities and their ability to contribute to our debates, but I should add that, under section 27(3) of the Scotland Act 1998, \"The Lord Advocate or the Solicitor General for Scotland may, in any proceedings of the Parliament, decline to answer any question or produce any document relating to the operation of the system of criminal prosecution in any particular case if he considers that answering the question or producing the document— (a) might prejudice criminal proceedings in that case, or (b) would be contrary to the public interest.\" It is as well to put that on record, in case there is frustration later because it is not recognised and not known. I have tried to be brief and to set out the structure of the argument. I have put the case rather impersonally, so perhaps before asking members to endorse the motion I should remind them that it relates to the appointment of two colleagues whom I know well and whom I like immensely. Their qualities have been tried and tested over two years in office, and I have been happy—fortunate, indeed—to be able to rely on their judgment, integrity and wise counsel during that period. I very much hope that my confidence will be shared by colleagues in every part of the chamber, that the motion will be passed and that Andrew Hardie and Colin Boyd will be recommended to Her Majesty for appointment. I move,That this Parliament agrees that it be recommended to Her Majesty that The Right Honourable The Lord Hardie QC be appointed as the Lord Advocate and that Colin Boyd QC be appointed as Solicitor General for Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "I do not regard this as a routine motion in any sense, but I hope that it is reasonably uncontentious—we will discover whether it is in the next few minutes. I am conscious of the fact that this is a short debate and that therefore it would be wrong of me to take too much time. However, I want to make it clear that the motion—which I have pleasure in moving—is to seek the agreement of the Parliament to the appointment of Andrew Hardie as Lord Advocate and Colin Boyd as Solicitor General for Scotland. If members agree to the motion, as First Minister I will recommend to Her Majesty that those appointments should be made.

The Lord Advocate and Solicitor General for Scotland are currently the Scottish law officers in the United Kingdom Government but on 20 May— which is imminent—they will cease to be members of the UK Government and the offices will transfer to the Scottish Executive. That fact dictates the timing of this motion.

The Scottish law officers will become members of the Scottish Executive on 20 May—before other Scottish ministers—because they have to be in place so that they can offer legal advice to the Executive in the run-up to 1 July, which is the day on which Parliament assumes its full powers. Arrangements have been made to ensure an appropriate distribution of the Lord Advocate's functions during the transitional period from 20 May to 1 July.

As most members will know, the offices of Lord Advocate and Solicitor General have been with us for a long time. The office of Lord Advocate has existed since at least the 15th century. I think that the Solicitor General arrived late—somewhere around the 17th century—but the positions have been important parts of the administration of justice and of politics in Scotland for many years. They have been the power base; in fact, the office of Lord Advocate ran Scotland on many occasions and the Lord Advocate was very much the man of affairs for the government of the day.

The offices are still central—in a different way— to the government of Scotland. They will continue

to be the principal Scottish law officers—the Lord Advocate in particular, with the Solicitor General continuing to be his deputy—and they will work as a team.

The functions conferred on the Scottish ministers generally can be exercised by any of them, but there are exceptions, the most important of which is the Lord Advocate, who will retain those functions that he exercises immediately before he ceases to be a minister of the Crown. Those retained functions, which are retained in statute, are functions that he will continue to exercise as a member of the Scottish Executive; they can be exercised only by the Lord Advocate and the Solicitor General. In other words, the functions cannot be passed around or swapped around—they remain firmly with the holders of those offices.

That is significant in particular areas. The Lord Advocate will be the law officer to the Scottish Executive. His functions as law officer will be retained functions and will, as I said, include providing legal advice to the Scottish Executive and representing the Scottish Executive in legal proceedings.

The Lord Advocate's role as the independent head of the systems of criminal prosecution and investigation of deaths in Scotland will also be a retained function. As most members will know, the independence of the Lord Advocate in that role is entrenched in the Scotland Act 1998. Section 48(5) confirms that the Lord Advocate's decisions as head of those systems must be taken independently. Section 29 provides that it is outwith the legislative competence of the Parliament to remove the Lord Advocate from his important independent position as head of the system of criminal prosecution.

The Lord Advocate and the Solicitor General have to shoulder an onerous role, which is a bulwark of our justice system. That is the order of the day in the courts of Scotland—although, as we all know, there are sometimes spectaculars, such as the events that will shortly take place in Holland. However, I suspect that the Lockerbie trial will cease to be quite so contentious in parliamentary terms because we do not have Tam Dalyell with us—at least not in this forum.

I stress to members that the Lord Advocate and the Solicitor General have full powers to serve on committees, to speak in debates and to answer questions in this Parliament. They lack one important power—the right to vote. Apart from that, they will, as I understand it, have a full sweep of activity—when it is judged appropriate and when their services are required.

For the record, I should mention that there is now a new office of Advocate General for

Scotland, which has been created by the Scotland Act 1998. The Prime Minister announced yesterday that Dr Lynda Clark would be the first Advocate General. I take this opportunity to offer her my congratulations—and I hope those of all members—on her appointment. The UK Government will require advice on Scots law— fairly frequently, I imagine—and it is not possible for the law officers who are answerable to the Scottish Executive to give advice to the United Kingdom Government. That is why this post has been created.

I hope that this Parliament will confirm the law officers and that those law officers will add a great deal to our debates. I mentioned their sweep of responsibilities and their ability to contribute to our debates, but I should add that, under section 27(3) of the Scotland Act 1998,

\"The Lord Advocate or the Solicitor General for Scotland may, in any proceedings of the Parliament, decline to answer any question or produce any document relating to the operation of the system of criminal prosecution in any particular case if he considers that answering the question or producing the document— (a) might prejudice criminal proceedings in that case, or (b) would be contrary to the public interest.\" It is as well to put that on record, in case there is frustration later because it is not recognised and not known.

I have tried to be brief and to set out the structure of the argument. I have put the case rather impersonally, so perhaps before asking members to endorse the motion I should remind them that it relates to the appointment of two colleagues whom I know well and whom I like immensely. Their qualities have been tried and tested over two years in office, and I have been happy—fortunate, indeed—to be able to rely on their judgment, integrity and wise counsel during that period. I very much hope that my confidence will be shared by colleagues in every part of the chamber, that the motion will be passed and that Andrew Hardie and Colin Boyd will be recommended to Her Majesty for appointment.

I move,

That this Parliament agrees that it be recommended to Her Majesty that The Right Honourable The Lord Hardie QC be appointed as the Lord Advocate and that Colin Boyd QC be appointed as Solicitor General for Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C703515", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 May 1999", "ID": 4162 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law Officers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26590, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26590, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie (Lothians) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 18.0, "ContributionID": 703515, "EditedText": "The Scottish Conservatives do not object on a personal basis to the appointment of Lord Hardie and Mr Boyd to the offices of Lord Advocate and Solicitor General; indeed, we wish them well in fulfilling their important roles. It is worth emphasising—as the First Minister did in his opening remarks—the importance of preserving the independence of the two offices. That independence should be respected by all parties in this Parliament and we should resolve that it should not in any way be undermined by the actions of the Executive. From observation, it seems that there have been at least two fairly high-profile cases in the past year that have, at the very least, raised doubts about whether there has been political interference in the judgment of the Lord Advocate on prosecution matters and appeals against sentences. I do not wish to comment on the specifics of those cases; I simply want to say that doubts have been raised, as members will be aware. To maintain public confidence in our system of independent prosecutors, it is important that there is not the slightest hint of political influence being brought to bear on future judgments. As the First Minister said, that independence is an important part of our justice system. It is also an important bulwark of this country's system of civil liberties and we would abandon it at our peril. There are also areas in the remit of the law officers that are, I think, of concern to MSPs. We look forward to the opportunity of questioning the law officers on their roles—in a general sense if not on specific cases. As we said at the election, the Scottish Conservatives have real concerns about the increasing use of fiscal fines as a means of disposing of cases, and about the fact that a number of cases are being prosecuted in lower courts in the interests of saving money rather than of ensuring that justice is done. We give notice to our new law officers that, in the months ahead, we will be questioning them and the new minister for justice closely on those matters. The public must have confidence in all aspects of our criminal justice system. As a party, we will seek to ensure that confidence is maintained and enhanced.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Scottish Conservatives do not object on a personal basis to the appointment of Lord Hardie and Mr Boyd to the offices of Lord Advocate and Solicitor General; indeed, we wish them well in fulfilling their important roles.

It is worth emphasising—as the First Minister did in his opening remarks—the importance of preserving the independence of the two offices. That independence should be respected by all parties in this Parliament and we should resolve that it should not in any way be undermined by the actions of the Executive.

From observation, it seems that there have been at least two fairly high-profile cases in the past year that have, at the very least, raised doubts about whether there has been political interference in the judgment of the Lord Advocate on prosecution matters and appeals against sentences. I do not wish to comment on the specifics of those cases; I simply want to say that doubts have been raised, as members will be aware.

To maintain public confidence in our system of independent prosecutors, it is important that there is not the slightest hint of political influence being brought to bear on future judgments. As the First Minister said, that independence is an important part of our justice system. It is also an important bulwark of this country's system of civil liberties and we would abandon it at our peril.

There are also areas in the remit of the law officers that are, I think, of concern to MSPs. We look forward to the opportunity of questioning the law officers on their roles—in a general sense if not on specific cases. As we said at the election, the Scottish Conservatives have real concerns about the increasing use of fiscal fines as a means of disposing of cases, and about the fact that a number of cases are being prosecuted in lower courts in the interests of saving money rather than of ensuring that justice is done.

We give notice to our new law officers that, in the months ahead, we will be questioning them and the new minister for justice closely on those matters. The public must have confidence in all aspects of our criminal justice system. As a party, we will seek to ensure that confidence is maintained and enhanced.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703520", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 May 1999", "ID": 4162 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law Officers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26590, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26590, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 29.0, "ContributionID": 703520, "EditedText": "Motion agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Motion agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703522", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 May 1999", "ID": 4162 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Law Officers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26590, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26590, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 31.0, "ContributionID": 703522, "EditedText": "In view of the fact that the two gentlemen will become members of the Parliament, I believe that members will think it right that I should invite them to walk in and be recognised. I will congratulate them on their appointment—if they are here. MEMBERS: \"Yes, they are here.\" I trust that they will be more timely in the courts.", "EditedTextHTML": "In view of the fact that the two gentlemen will become members of the Parliament, I believe that members will think it right that I should invite them to walk in and be recognised. I will congratulate them on their appointment—if they are here. [MEMBERS: \"Yes, they are here.\"] I trust that they will be more timely in the courts.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703525", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 May 1999", "ID": 4162 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Prayers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26591, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 37.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 37.0, "ID": 26591, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 38.0, "ContributionID": 703525, "EditedText": "The next item of business is a debate on the principle of prayers being held at the start of meetings of the Parliament. Members will be aware that the standing orders provide for the Parliament to have a decision time at the end of each sitting day. A decision on Mr Fergusson's motion would normally be taken then. I have decided that the decision should not be delayed until 5 o'clock but will be taken at the close of the debate, which will be not later than one hour after the motion is moved. Since this is the first debate we have had, I remind members that, if they wish to intervene in a speech, they should do so by pressing the microphone button, standing in their place and asking the member to give way. It is up to the member who has the floor to indicate to whom he or she wishes to give way, if at all.", "EditedTextHTML": "The next item of business is a debate on the principle of prayers being held at the start of meetings of the Parliament. Members will be aware that the standing orders provide for the Parliament to have a decision time at the end of each sitting day. A decision on Mr Fergusson's motion would normally be taken then. I have decided that the decision should not be delayed until 5 o'clock but will be taken at the close of the debate, which will be not later than one hour after the motion is moved.

Since this is the first debate we have had, I remind members that, if they wish to intervene in a speech, they should do so by pressing the microphone button, standing in their place and asking the member to give way. It is up to the member who has the floor to indicate to whom he or she wishes to give way, if at all.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2228E151P202C703530", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 May 1999", "ID": 4162 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Prayers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26591, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 37.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 37.0, "ID": 26591, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McCabe, Tom", "ID": 2228, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Hamilton South" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tom McCabe", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Tom McCabe (Hamilton South) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 53.0, "ContributionID": 703530, "EditedText": "The sentiments that lie behind this motion are admirable ones. It is right that there should be a concern to establish the procedures and traditions for which this Parliament will become known. Members of the Scottish Parliament are here to conduct business that will fashion and touch the lives of Scotland's people. The opportunity to engage in prayer is an important one, and I was glad that the consultative steering group considered the matter and recommended that the Parliament take an early view. A time for prayer or reflection is a feature that can demonstrate the humility that should be attached to membership of this Parliament, and it would allow members to consider the great privilege of being a democratic representative. Scotland's great strength is its diversity. Some members may choose a more private opportunity to express prayer. Some may prefer the opportunity for a more contemplative moment before the business of the Parliament begins, to consider again and again the burden of their responsibilities as well as the great possibilities that their position can create for the advancement of the common good. That strength of diversity is in the multiplicity of faiths and beliefs that encompass Scottish life, as well as the freedom not to have any formal beliefs. It is important that we recognise also the secular thread that runs through Scottish life. The overwhelming hope for this Parliament is that our strength will come from an open, inclusive and consultative culture. In that spirit, Sir David, we hope that all parties can see the dangers of a rush to judgment, however well intentioned it may be. We see considerable merit in a small, cross- party group which can consult with the great range of faiths and beliefs and bring forward recommendations on how best to proceed. We recognise, of course, that on a matter of this nature members are free to exercise their own judgment. If the party moving the motion recognises that there is a will to proceed and a will to develop procedures that are broad-based, reflective and capable of standing the test of time, I would ask that it considers withdrawing the motion and allowing a cross-party approach to develop the most appropriate procedures. Parliamentary officers have been appointed by most of the main Churches, and representatives of other faiths and cultures could, I am sure, be consulted without undue delay. Therefore, in a spirit of co-operation, which we have no doubt will be appreciated throughout Scotland, we would ask that we take a little more time to consider this important aspect of our Parliament's procedures.", "EditedTextHTML": "The sentiments that lie behind this motion are admirable ones. It is right that there should be a concern to establish the procedures and traditions for which this Parliament will become known.

Members of the Scottish Parliament are here to conduct business that will fashion and touch the lives of Scotland's people. The opportunity to engage in prayer is an important one, and I was glad that the consultative steering group considered the matter and recommended that the Parliament take an early view.

A time for prayer or reflection is a feature that can demonstrate the humility that should be attached to membership of this Parliament, and it would allow members to consider the great privilege of being a democratic representative.

Scotland's great strength is its diversity. Some members may choose a more private opportunity to express prayer. Some may prefer the opportunity for a more contemplative moment before the business of the Parliament begins, to consider again and again the burden of their responsibilities as well as the great possibilities that their position can create for the advancement of the common good. That strength of diversity is in the multiplicity of faiths and beliefs that encompass Scottish life, as well as the freedom not to have any formal beliefs. It is important that we recognise also the secular thread that runs through Scottish life.

The overwhelming hope for this Parliament is that our strength will come from an open, inclusive and consultative culture. In that spirit, Sir David, we hope that all parties can see the dangers of a rush to judgment, however well intentioned it may be.

We see considerable merit in a small, cross- party group which can consult with the great range of faiths and beliefs and bring forward recommendations on how best to proceed. We recognise, of course, that on a matter of this nature members are free to exercise their own judgment. If the party moving the motion recognises that there is a will to proceed and a will to develop procedures that are broad-based, reflective and capable of standing the test of time, I would ask that it considers withdrawing the motion and allowing a cross-party approach to develop the most appropriate procedures.

Parliamentary officers have been appointed by most of the main Churches, and representatives of other faiths and cultures could, I am sure, be consulted without undue delay. Therefore, in a spirit of co-operation, which we have no doubt will be appreciated throughout Scotland, we would ask that we take a little more time to consider this important aspect of our Parliament's procedures.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2056E57P84C703534", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 May 1999", "ID": 4162 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Prayers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26591, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 37.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 37.0, "ID": 26591, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James", "ID": 2056, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "James Douglas-Hamilton", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Lord James Douglas-Hamilton (Lothians) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 65.0, "ContributionID": 703534, "EditedText": "I hope that Mr Alex Fergusson will not feel it incumbent upon himself to withdraw this motion. He is entitled to test the opinion of the Parliament on an issue that is most certainly not party political. If the principle is accepted, the details can be sorted out by the Parliamentary Bureau. I support what Donald Gorrie said. It is worth remembering that we would not be in this building if it were not for the good will of the Church of Scotland, for which we should express gratitude. No one is compelled to attend prayers in the House of Commons and no one would be forced to attend prayers here. As Mr McCabe said, it is a great privilege to be here, and perhaps it is no bad thing for parliamentarians to be reminded that they are here to be of service to others. Some years ago, I discovered that a Church of Scotland minister had never read prayers in the House of Commons. I made strong representations to the Speaker at that time— Bernard Weatherill—who agreed that the minister of the Canongate could read prayers in the House of Commons, although such a thing had never been heard of before. Just as I was prepared to argue the case for the Church of Scotland in the House of Commons, so today we should sympathise with the case that has been advanced by Mr Alex Salmond and others, that other denominations should be fully considered in this matter. I hope that Mr Fergusson will press his motion to a division.", "EditedTextHTML": "I hope that Mr Alex Fergusson will not feel it incumbent upon himself to withdraw this motion. He is entitled to test the opinion of the Parliament on an issue that is most certainly not party political. If the principle is accepted, the details can be sorted out by the Parliamentary Bureau.

I support what Donald Gorrie said. It is worth remembering that we would not be in this building if it were not for the good will of the Church of Scotland, for which we should express gratitude. No one is compelled to attend prayers in the House of Commons and no one would be forced to attend prayers here. As Mr McCabe said, it is a great privilege to be here, and perhaps it is no bad thing for parliamentarians to be reminded that they are here to be of service to others.

Some years ago, I discovered that a Church of Scotland minister had never read prayers in the House of Commons. I made strong representations to the Speaker at that time— Bernard Weatherill—who agreed that the minister of the Canongate could read prayers in the House of Commons, although such a thing had never been heard of before. Just as I was prepared to argue the case for the Church of Scotland in the House of Commons, so today we should sympathise with the case that has been advanced by Mr Alex Salmond and others, that other denominations should be fully considered in this matter. I hope that Mr Fergusson will press his motion to a division.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1878E208P502C703535", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 May 1999", "ID": 4162 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Prayers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26591, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 37.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 37.0, "ID": 26591, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Dr Winnie", "ID": 1878, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Winnie Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Winnie Ewing (Highlands and Islands) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 68.0, "ContributionID": 703535, "EditedText": "I have two questions for Mr Fergusson. First, what is a plenary session? Is it when the whole Parliament is here, or is it every time we are here? Perhaps we could have that cleared up. Secondly, does he accept that non-denominational includes interfaith? I agree with the interfaith proposal.By all means let us rule out the House of Commons model. I was there for eight years. Lord James Douglas-Hamilton said that there was no compulsion to attend prayers, but I found that there was: if I wanted a seat, I had to pray. That was not a very dignified situation, but there were not enough seats to go around. We are blessed here—we all have a seat and a desk—so that will not happen. There were some comic elements at the House of Commons, the first of which was that we were locked in to pray. The first time I went to a question time, I found everybody queueing. When I asked old Mr Emrys Hughes what was happening, he said that members had been locked in to pray. That sounded very strange. The second comic element was that members turned their backs on one another during prayers, as if there was something shameful in praying. The third comic element was that the prayer was always the same: \"Let all the nations rejoice and be glad.\"I liked it, but it was the same every day.We should have a new model and we should embrace all the cultures and religions that have chosen Scotland as their home.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have two questions for Mr Fergusson. First, what is a plenary session? Is it when the whole Parliament is here, or is it every time we are here? Perhaps we could have that cleared up. Secondly, does he accept that non-denominational includes interfaith? I agree with the interfaith proposal.

By all means let us rule out the House of Commons model. I was there for eight years. Lord James Douglas-Hamilton said that there was no compulsion to attend prayers, but I found that there was: if I wanted a seat, I had to pray. That was not a very dignified situation, but there were not enough seats to go around. We are blessed here—we all have a seat and a desk—so that will not happen.

There were some comic elements at the House of Commons, the first of which was that we were locked in to pray. The first time I went to a question time, I found everybody queueing. When I asked old Mr Emrys Hughes what was happening, he said that members had been locked in to pray. That sounded very strange.

The second comic element was that members turned their backs on one another during prayers, as if there was something shameful in praying. The third comic element was that the prayer was always the same:

\"Let all the nations rejoice and be glad.\"

I liked it, but it was the same every day.

We should have a new model and we should embrace all the cultures and religions that have chosen Scotland as their home.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1768E72P274C703536", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 May 1999", "ID": 4162 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Prayers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26591, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 37.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 37.0, "ID": 26591, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Murray, Elaine", "ID": 1768, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Dumfries" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Elaine Murray", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Elaine Murray (Dumfries) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 71.0, "ContributionID": 703536, "EditedText": "I have no objection in principle to those who are seeking divine guidance being able to do so in the Parliament, but I agree with Mr McCabe that there is a little more to it than the motion suggests. I was pleased to hear from Lord James Douglas- Hamilton that prayers were not to be compulsory; none of us wants to be taken back to school and forced to sit in assembly. We have to consider what form the prayers would take; a lot of good points have been made on the interfaith nature of Scottish religious belief. We have also to consider the frequency of prayers and when they would take place. I am not in favour of our having prayers immediately before meeting. I suspect that, if we did, members might attend because they wanted to get a good seat in the range of the television cameras rather than because they were seeking divine guidance. That would be regrettable. We need to consider this matter more carefully and must not rush into a decision.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have no objection in principle to those who are seeking divine guidance being able to do so in the Parliament, but I agree with Mr McCabe that there is a little more to it than the motion suggests.

I was pleased to hear from Lord James Douglas- Hamilton that prayers were not to be compulsory; none of us wants to be taken back to school and forced to sit in assembly. We have to consider what form the prayers would take; a lot of good points have been made on the interfaith nature of Scottish religious belief. We have also to consider the frequency of prayers and when they would take place. I am not in favour of our having prayers immediately before meeting. I suspect that, if we did, members might attend because they wanted to get a good seat in the range of the television cameras rather than because they were seeking divine guidance. That would be regrettable.

We need to consider this matter more carefully and must not rush into a decision.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1907E215P515C703538", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 May 1999", "ID": 4162 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Prayers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26591, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 37.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 37.0, "ID": 26591, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wilson, Andrew", "ID": 1907, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Central Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Andrew Wilson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Andrew Wilson (Central Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 77.0, "ContributionID": 703538, "EditedText": "I, too, support the motion. One of the few things that I share with Mike Russell is an Episcopalian background. Indeed, we are two of only three Episcopalians for independence—a new movement that we started up earlier this year. As a Motherwell supporter as well, I think that St Jude must be my patron saint. I support the motion and I appeal to the Government's business manager, Mr McCabe, not to set up a sub-committee to examine the issue of prayers. We have to decide today; we must start to get something moving. If I am reading Mr Fergusson's gestures correctly, he seems quite open to some of the suggestions that have been made by Mr Salmond, Mr Russell and, importantly, Mr Gorrie. One of the key points to emerge from the debate is that prayers must be multifaith. As Mr Gorrie said, they must not be neutered. We must find a way to express the richness of each faith's diversity, not just find something that is acceptable to all. Every faith must be represented in the prayers, and the solution suggested by Mr Salmond—with whom I have one or two things in common—is sensible.I broadly support the motion and I hope that we can take advice from you, Sir David, and from Mr Fergusson, and find a solution now so that we can vote on the motion today and not allow it to disappear off the agenda into a sub-committee.", "EditedTextHTML": "I, too, support the motion. One of the few things that I share with Mike Russell is an Episcopalian background. Indeed, we are two of only three Episcopalians for independence—a new movement that we started up earlier this year. As a Motherwell supporter as well, I think that St Jude must be my patron saint.

I support the motion and I appeal to the Government's business manager, Mr McCabe, not to set up a sub-committee to examine the issue of prayers. We have to decide today; we must start to get something moving.

If I am reading Mr Fergusson's gestures correctly, he seems quite open to some of the suggestions that have been made by Mr Salmond, Mr Russell and, importantly, Mr Gorrie. One of the key points to emerge from the debate is that prayers must be multifaith. As Mr Gorrie said, they must not be neutered. We must find a way to express the richness of each faith's diversity, not just find something that is acceptable to all. Every faith must be represented in the prayers, and the solution suggested by Mr Salmond—with whom I

have one or two things in common—is sensible.

I broadly support the motion and I hope that we can take advice from you, Sir David, and from Mr Fergusson, and find a solution now so that we can vote on the motion today and not allow it to disappear off the agenda into a sub-committee.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1926E190P479C703540", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 May 1999", "ID": 4162 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Prayers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26591, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 37.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 37.0, "ID": 26591, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Adam, Brian", "ID": 1926, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Brian Adam", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Brian Adam (North-East Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 83.0, "ContributionID": 703540, "EditedText": "I was a little concerned by Mr McCabe's proposal, as it could lead to difficulties. There has been the occasional difficulty. We divide among ourselves, as do religious communities. If we consult as he suggests, that may lead to division rather than people coming together. I support the motion, on the assumption that there will be a multifaith arrangement that will be inclusive and allow all those who wish to take part to do so. If the Bishop of Edinburgh does not wish to take part, we should not force him to do so.", "EditedTextHTML": "I was a little concerned by Mr McCabe's proposal, as it could lead to difficulties. There has been the occasional difficulty. We divide among ourselves, as do religious communities. If we consult as he suggests, that may lead to division rather than people coming together. I support the motion, on the assumption that there will be a multifaith arrangement that will be inclusive and allow all those who wish to take part to do so. If the Bishop of Edinburgh does not wish to take part, we should not force him to do so.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1892E34P73C703542", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 May 1999", "ID": 4162 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Prayers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26591, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 37.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 37.0, "ID": 26591, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Fergusson, Alex", "ID": 1892, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Fergusson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Fergusson rose—", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 87.0, "ContributionID": 703542, "EditedText": "", "EditedTextHTML": "

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703543", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 May 1999", "ID": 4162 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Prayers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26591, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 37.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 37.0, "ID": 26591, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 89.0, "ContributionID": 703543, "EditedText": "I am sorry, the First Minister would like to speak.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am sorry, the First Minister would like to speak.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1892E34P73C703549", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 May 1999", "ID": 4162 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Prayers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26591, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 37.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 37.0, "ID": 26591, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Fergusson, Alex", "ID": 1892, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Fergusson", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Alex Fergusson: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 103.0, "ContributionID": 703549, "EditedText": "I am grateful for that comment. I am in complete agreement with the interfaith concept of the motion. It was perhaps naive to use the word non-denominational, but I have never been in any doubt that the interfaith aspect is the one that we should pursue. I also have sympathy with the \"Thought for the Day\" angle—which I think Mr Salmond used—that I mentioned in several interviews this morning as presenting a model that could be considered. I cannot agree with Mr McCabe because I think that he is disputing the merits of prayer. We have been praying for almost 2,000 years and I think that it is more than time to take a stand. I strongly believe that with the new Parliament we have a new beginning. I see no reason why we should not have a new all-embracing form of contemplative thought or prayer as part of our parliamentary procedure. I cannot agree with some members who think that everything that comes from Westminster is bad. I believe that daily prayer would be enormously to our benefit and I commend the motion to members.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am grateful for that comment. I am in complete agreement with the interfaith concept of the motion. It was perhaps naive to use the word non-denominational, but I have never been in any doubt that the interfaith aspect is the one that we should pursue.

I also have sympathy with the \"Thought for the Day\" angle—which I think Mr Salmond used—that I mentioned in several interviews this morning as presenting a model that could be considered. I cannot agree with Mr McCabe because I think that he is disputing the merits of prayer. We have been praying for almost 2,000 years and I think that it is more than time to take a stand.

I strongly believe that with the new Parliament we have a new beginning. I see no reason why we should not have a new all-embracing form of contemplative thought or prayer as part of our parliamentary procedure. I cannot agree with some members who think that everything that

comes from Westminster is bad. I believe that daily prayer would be enormously to our benefit and I commend the motion to members.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703550", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 May 1999", "ID": 4162 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Prayers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26591, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 37.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 37.0, "ID": 26591, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 105.0, "ContributionID": 703550, "EditedText": "The question is, that the motion in the name of Mr Alex Fergusson be agreed to. Are we all agreed? The motion is agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "The question is, that the motion in the name of Mr Alex Fergusson be agreed to. Are we all agreed?

The motion is agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C703545", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 May 1999", "ID": 4162 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Prayers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26591, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 37.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 37.0, "ID": 26591, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 94.0, "ContributionID": 703545, "EditedText": "The motion also says \"in principle\"and remits the matter to the Parliamentary Bureau, which would make arrangements and come back to the Parliament. The motion is phrased loosely enough for the matter to come back to the chamber. A decision in principle is being sought today, not a decision in detail.", "EditedTextHTML": "The motion also says \"in principle\"

and remits the matter to the Parliamentary Bureau, which would make arrangements and come back to the Parliament. The motion is phrased loosely enough for the matter to come back to the chamber. A decision in principle is being sought today, not a decision in detail.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C703548", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 May 1999", "ID": 4162 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Prayers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26591, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 37.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 37.0, "ID": 26591, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 101.0, "ContributionID": 703548, "EditedText": "I hope that, in going for the treble, Mr Fergusson will accept a point about an interfaith approach. I mentioned earlier that I had written to representatives of all the faiths in Scotland; I should have said that they all replied with enthusiasm. The Bishop of Edinburgh, Richard Holloway, wrote to me and said that, notwithstanding his personal views on the matter, his Church was in favour of some initiative in this regard.", "EditedTextHTML": "I hope that, in going for the treble, Mr Fergusson will accept a point about an interfaith approach. I mentioned earlier that I had written to representatives of all the faiths in Scotland; I should have said that they all replied with enthusiasm. The Bishop of Edinburgh, Richard Holloway, wrote to me and said that, notwithstanding his personal views on the matter, his Church was in favour of some initiative in this regard.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703559", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 May 1999", "ID": 4162 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Prayers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26591, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 37.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 37.0, "ID": 26591, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 123.0, "ContributionID": 703559, "EditedText": "FOR Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)(LD)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)AGAINST Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)Mackay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)ABSTENTIONS Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)", "EditedTextHTML": "FOR

Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)
(LD)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)

AGAINST

Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
Mackay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)

ABSTENTIONS

Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703560", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 18 May 1999", "ID": 4162 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-18T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Prayers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26591, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 37.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 37.0, "ID": 26591, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 124.0, "ContributionID": 703560, "EditedText": "The result of the division is as follows: For 69, Against 15, Abstentions 37.", "EditedTextHTML": "The result of the division is as follows: For 69, Against 15, Abstentions 37.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703444", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 13 May 1999", "ID": 4161 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Thursday 13 May 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26587, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26587, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 2.0, "ContributionID": 703444, "EditedText": "THE PRESIDING OFFICER opened the meeting at 14:31", "EditedTextHTML": "[THE PRESIDING OFFICER opened the meeting at 14:31]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703447", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 13 May 1999", "ID": 4161 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "First Minister", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26588, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26588, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 7.0, "ContributionID": 703447, "EditedText": "I shall shortly ask those members who wish to cast their vote for Dennis Canavan to do so. You should remember that there will be four rounds of voting. Members will have 30 seconds in which to cast their vote. Before the voting period, I shall invite each member to speak in support of his candidacy for up to two minutes. Once voting for all candidates has taken place, I will ask those members who have not voted, but who wish to record an abstention, to do so.Members should vote only once, and should use only the yes button. If any member casts more than one yes vote, the votes will be treated as spoilt, and none of them will be counted. Once the voting has been completed and the result verified, I shall announce the number of votes cast, the number of votes for each of the candidates and the number of abstentions. Any candidate who receives more votes than the total number of votes for all the other candidates in that round shall be selected as the Parliament's nominee. If no candidate receives a majority of votes, I shall announce that the candidate with the fewest votes is eliminated from the process and that a further round of voting will be held for the remaining candidates. Members will again be able to vote yes for one of the candidates or to abstain. I should remind members that, for the result to be valid, more than a quarter of all members—that is, at least 33 members—must have voted. That includes members who abstain. Members should also be aware that, if all the candidates in any round of voting receive the same number of votes, the rules provide that no candidate is selected. In that case, it would be necessary for me to adjourn the meeting to allow the timing for a new selection period to be determined. I remind you that you can vote only once. Members wishing to record an abstention will have the chance to do so at the end of the voting.", "EditedTextHTML": "I shall shortly ask those members who wish to cast their vote for Dennis Canavan to do so. You should remember that there will be four rounds of voting. Members will have 30 seconds in which to cast their vote. Before the voting period, I shall invite each member to speak in support of his candidacy for up to two minutes. Once voting for all candidates has taken place, I will ask those members who have not voted, but who wish to record an abstention, to do so.

Members should vote only once, and should use only the yes button. If any member casts more than one yes vote, the votes will be treated as spoilt, and none of them will be counted.

Once the voting has been completed and the result verified, I shall announce the number of votes cast, the number of votes for each of the candidates and the number of abstentions. Any candidate who receives more votes than the total number of votes for all the other candidates in that round shall be selected as the Parliament's nominee. If no candidate receives a majority of votes, I shall announce that the candidate with the fewest votes is eliminated from the process and that a further round of voting will be held for the remaining candidates. Members will again be able to vote yes for one of the candidates or to abstain.

I should remind members that, for the result to be valid, more than a quarter of all members—that is, at least 33 members—must have voted. That includes members who abstain. Members should also be aware that, if all the candidates in any round of voting receive the same number of votes, the rules provide that no candidate is selected. In that case, it would be necessary for me to adjourn the meeting to allow the timing for a new selection period to be determined.

I remind you that you can vote only once. Members wishing to record an abstention will have the chance to do so at the end of the voting.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1916E38P70C703454", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 13 May 1999", "ID": 4161 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "First Minister", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26588, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26588, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Ben", "ID": 1916, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ben Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ben Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 21.0, "ContributionID": 703454, "EditedText": "Is it not the case that this election—unlike your own, in which everybody knew who they were voting for—is being fixed? This election is forcing a number of members to vote blindly on an issue; they do not know the principles or the outcome. Is it not also the case that Liberal Democrat MSPs are being forced to sell out Scottish students and people in schools? They are voting blindly, as they do not know the deal.", "EditedTextHTML": "Is it not the case that this election—unlike your own, in which everybody knew who they were voting for—is being fixed? This election is forcing a number of members to vote blindly on an issue; they do not know the principles or the outcome. Is it not also the case that Liberal Democrat MSPs are being forced to sell out Scottish students and people in schools? They are voting blindly, as they do not know the deal.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703459", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 13 May 1999", "ID": 4161 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "First Minister", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26588, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26588, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Members ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Members: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 31.0, "ContributionID": 703459, "EditedText": "Yes.", "EditedTextHTML": "Yes.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703460", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 13 May 1999", "ID": 4161 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "First Minister", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26588, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26588, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 33.0, "ContributionID": 703460, "EditedText": "For reasons connected with the electronics, I am afraid that we are limited in what we are able to do. There will otherwise be large gaps, but if you are prepared to accept large gaps, we can do as you suggest.", "EditedTextHTML": "For reasons connected with the electronics, I am afraid that we are limited in what we are able to do. There will otherwise be large gaps, but if you are prepared to accept large gaps, we can do as you suggest.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703464", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 13 May 1999", "ID": 4161 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "First Minister", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26588, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26588, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 41.0, "ContributionID": 703464, "EditedText": "That is a very interesting suggestion, which I might adopt, although I would prefer to stick to the mechanical method of voting. If it is the will of the Parliament that we should hear all four candidates first, I am quite happy to arrange for that. MEMBERS: \"Yes.\" If I may reveal a confidence, I hope that the Procedures Committee will look at the standing orders as soon as possible, because yesterday's proceedings and today's are governed by the standing orders that have been handed down to us. In the circumstances, we shall cancel the vote for the moment.", "EditedTextHTML": "That is a very interesting suggestion, which I might adopt, although I would prefer to stick to the mechanical method of voting.

If it is the will of the Parliament that we should hear all four candidates first, I am quite happy to arrange for that. [MEMBERS: \"Yes.\"]

If I may reveal a confidence, I hope that the Procedures Committee will look at the standing orders as soon as possible, because yesterday's proceedings and today's are governed by the standing orders that have been handed down to us.

In the circumstances, we shall cancel the vote for the moment.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C703467", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 13 May 1999", "ID": 4161 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "First Minister", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26588, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26588, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 47.0, "ContributionID": 703467, "EditedText": "There are standing orders and there is common sense. I thought that everybody had consented to hearing all four candidates.", "EditedTextHTML": "There are standing orders and there is common sense. I thought that everybody had consented to hearing all four candidates.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703470", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 13 May 1999", "ID": 4161 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "First Minister", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26588, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26588, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 53.0, "ContributionID": 703470, "EditedText": "All right. Let us proceed to the next speaker in alphabetical order: Donald Dewar. The floor is yours.", "EditedTextHTML": "All right. Let us proceed to the next speaker in alphabetical order: Donald Dewar. The floor is yours.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C703471", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 13 May 1999", "ID": 4161 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "First Minister", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26588, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26588, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Donald Dewar (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 55.0, "ContributionID": 703471, "EditedText": "All my political life, I have worked with others to achieve this Parliament. Many of my allies and many colleagues in that cause are here today. I am proud of what we have done, and I am proud of what Scotland has done. Scotland's Parliament is no longer a political pamphlet, a campaign trail or a waving flag. It is here; it is real. We are indeed a country with a past. The past has shaped us, but our task now is to shape the future. I hope that we can all co-operate to do that. We need a Government that can deliver the priorities and the hopes of the people, which were defined by the votes cast last week in the elections to this Parliament and by the popular will that carried the referendum—the popular will on which the authority of this Parliament itself is built. Each of us is privileged to serve as a member of this Parliament. I would very much like to serve Scotland as First Minister. Applause.", "EditedTextHTML": "All my political life, I have worked with others to achieve this Parliament. Many of my allies and many colleagues in that cause are here today.

I am proud of what we have done, and I am proud of what Scotland has done. Scotland's Parliament is no longer a political pamphlet, a campaign trail or a waving flag. It is here; it is real.

We are indeed a country with a past. The past has shaped us, but our task now is to shape the future. I hope that we can all co-operate to do that.

We need a Government that can deliver the priorities and the hopes of the people, which were defined by the votes cast last week in the elections to this Parliament and by the popular will that carried the referendum—the popular will on which the authority of this Parliament itself is built.

Each of us is privileged to serve as a member of this Parliament. I would very much like to serve Scotland as First Minister. [Applause.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703472", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 13 May 1999", "ID": 4161 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "First Minister", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26588, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26588, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 57.0, "ContributionID": 703472, "EditedText": "Thank you very much. The next candidate is David McLetchie. The floor is yours.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you very much. The next candidate is David McLetchie. The floor is yours.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703474", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 13 May 1999", "ID": 4161 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "First Minister", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26588, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26588, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 61.0, "ContributionID": 703474, "EditedText": "Mr Alex Salmond.", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Alex Salmond.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703476", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 13 May 1999", "ID": 4161 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "First Minister", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26588, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26588, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 65.0, "ContributionID": 703476, "EditedText": "Thank you very much.I ask for members' patience while we deal with the new system of voting, with which we are all unfamiliar. The voting will be in alphabetical sequence for the four candidates: that is, Dennis Canavan, Donald Dewar, David McLetchie and Mr Alex Salmond. They have been nominated for selection as the Parliament's nominee for appointment as the First Minister. The first vote is for Dennis Canavan. Those who wish to vote for him have 30 seconds in which to press the yes button on the console.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you very much.

I ask for members' patience while we deal with the new system of voting, with which we are all unfamiliar. The voting will be in alphabetical sequence for the four candidates: that is, Dennis Canavan, Donald Dewar, David McLetchie and Mr Alex Salmond. They have been nominated for selection as the Parliament's nominee for appointment as the First Minister.

The first vote is for Dennis Canavan. Those who wish to vote for him have 30 seconds in which to press the yes button on the console.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703478", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 13 May 1999", "ID": 4161 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "First Minister", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26588, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26588, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 69.0, "ContributionID": 703478, "EditedText": "The time for voting is concluded. We must allow a pause for the vote to be registered. Those who wish to vote for Donald Dewar have 30 seconds in which to do so and should press the yes button on the console now.", "EditedTextHTML": "The time for voting is concluded. We must allow a pause for the vote to be registered.

Those who wish to vote for Donald Dewar have 30 seconds in which to do so and should press the yes button on the console now.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703481", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 13 May 1999", "ID": 4161 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "First Minister", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26588, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26588, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 75.0, "ContributionID": 703481, "EditedText": "Members voted.", "EditedTextHTML": "Members voted.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703482", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 13 May 1999", "ID": 4161 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "First Minister", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26588, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26588, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 77.0, "ContributionID": 703482, "EditedText": "The voting time is concluded. Those who wish to vote for Mr Alex Salmond should be ready to do so. Members have 30 seconds in which to vote. They should press the yes button now.", "EditedTextHTML": "The voting time is concluded.

Those who wish to vote for Mr Alex Salmond should be ready to do so. Members have 30 seconds in which to vote. They should press the yes button now.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703483", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 13 May 1999", "ID": 4161 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "First Minister", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26588, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26588, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 79.0, "ContributionID": 703483, "EditedText": "Members voted.", "EditedTextHTML": "Members voted.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703484", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 13 May 1999", "ID": 4161 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "First Minister", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26588, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26588, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 81.0, "ContributionID": 703484, "EditedText": "The time for voting is concluded. Apparently someone has pressed the wrong button. Laughter. In time we shall all know how to correct a mistake, but given that we do not yet understand how to do that, that vote will be cancelled. I was not going to identify anybody, Dr Ewing. Laughter. The mother of the Parliament should be allowed a little leeway, so we shall take that vote again. Members who wish to vote for Mr Alex Salmond should press the yes button now.", "EditedTextHTML": "The time for voting is concluded.

Apparently someone has pressed the wrong button. [Laughter.] In time we shall all know how to correct a mistake, but given that we do not yet understand how to do that, that vote will be cancelled. I was not going to identify anybody, Dr Ewing. [Laughter.] The mother of the Parliament should be allowed a little leeway, so we shall take that vote again.

Members who wish to vote for Mr Alex Salmond should press the yes button now.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703486", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 13 May 1999", "ID": 4161 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "First Minister", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26588, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26588, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 84.0, "ContributionID": 703486, "EditedText": "I remind members and, indeed, visitors in the gallery, that all electronic equipment should be switched off—we have enough trouble with our own. The time for voting is over. That concludes voting for all the candidates, but any members who have not voted and who wish to record an abstention can do so now by pressing the yes button. Members who wish to record an abstention should press the yes button now.", "EditedTextHTML": "I remind members and, indeed, visitors in the gallery, that all electronic equipment should be switched off—we have enough trouble with our own.
The time for voting is over. That concludes voting for all the candidates, but any members who have not voted and who wish to record an abstention can do so now by pressing the yes button.

Members who wish to record an abstention should press the yes button now.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C703499", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 13 May 1999", "ID": 4161 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "First Minister", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26588, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26588, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 113.0, "ContributionID": 703499, "EditedText": "I, too, would like to congratulate Donald on his nomination. I trust that he will have listened to and will reflect on some of the things that I said earlier, as well as consider what other members will say in the important months and years that lie ahead. Above all, I hope that, as the First Minister for Scotland, Donald will show that he is a firm believer in open democracy, rather than in doing deals with certain people at dead of night or early in the morning. I hope that he will treat all members of the Parliament as equals. He is primus in paribus. I hope that he will act as the spokesperson for Scotland, rather than as somebody else's spokesperson in Scotland. Once upon a time, Donald said that I was not good enough to sit in the Scottish Parliament. In the years that lie ahead, I only hope that he proves himself good enough to be Scotland's First Minister. Despite the fact that we have had profound political disagreements in the past and, no doubt, will have more in the future, to show that I bear him no personal malice I would like to shake his hand. Applause.", "EditedTextHTML": "I, too, would like to congratulate Donald on his nomination. I trust that

he will have listened to and will reflect on some of the things that I said earlier, as well as consider what other members will say in the important months and years that lie ahead. Above all, I hope that, as the First Minister for Scotland, Donald will show that he is a firm believer in open democracy, rather than in doing deals with certain people at dead of night or early in the morning. I hope that he will treat all members of the Parliament as equals. He is primus in paribus. I hope that he will act as the spokesperson for Scotland, rather than as somebody else's spokesperson in Scotland.

Once upon a time, Donald said that I was not good enough to sit in the Scottish Parliament. In the years that lie ahead, I only hope that he proves himself good enough to be Scotland's First Minister. Despite the fact that we have had profound political disagreements in the past and, no doubt, will have more in the future, to show that I bear him no personal malice I would like to shake his hand. [Applause.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703490", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 13 May 1999", "ID": 4161 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "First Minister", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26588, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26588, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 96.0, "ContributionID": 703490, "EditedText": "Dennis Canavan 3Donald Dewar 71David McLetchie 17Mr Alex Salmond 35VOTES FOR DENNIS CANAVAN Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West) Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green) Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP) VOTES FOR DONALD DEWAR Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)(Lab)Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)Mackay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)(LD)Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)(LD)Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)VOTES FOR DAVID MCLETCHIE Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)VOTES FOR MR ALEX SALMOND Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)", "EditedTextHTML": "Dennis Canavan 3
Donald Dewar 71
David McLetchie 17
Mr Alex Salmond 35

VOTES FOR DENNIS CANAVAN

Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Sheridan, Tommy (Glasgow) (SSP)

VOTES FOR DONALD DEWAR

Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Dewar, Donald (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Ms Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)
(Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
Mackay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McMahon, Mr Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Ms Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
(LD)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Mrs Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)
(LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Welsh, Ian (Ayr) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)

VOTES FOR DAVID MCLETCHIE

Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnston, Mr Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)

VOTES FOR MR ALEX SALMOND

Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Dr Winnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
MacDonald, Ms Margo (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Mr Alex (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703491", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 13 May 1999", "ID": 4161 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "First Minister", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26588, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26588, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 97.0, "ContributionID": 703491, "EditedText": "As the result is valid, and as Donald Dewar received more votes than the total number of votes for all the other candidates, I declare that he is selected as the Parliament's nominee for appointment as the First Minister. Applause. As required by section 46(4) of the Scotland Act 1998, I shall now recommend to Her Majesty that she appoint Donald Dewar as the First Minister.", "EditedTextHTML": "As the result is valid, and as Donald Dewar received more votes than the total number of votes for all the other candidates, I declare that he is selected as the Parliament's nominee for appointment as the First Minister. [Applause.]

As required by section 46(4) of the Scotland Act 1998, I shall now recommend to Her Majesty that she appoint Donald Dewar as the First Minister.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1972E147P238C703492", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 13 May 1999", "ID": 4161 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "First Minister", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26588, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26588, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Dewar, Donald", "ID": 1972, "PartyName": "Scottish Labour", "PartyAbbreviation": "Lab", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow Anniesland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The First Minister", "SpeakerName": "Donald Dewar", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Donald Dewar: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 99.0, "ContributionID": 703492, "EditedText": "I would like to thank all mycolleagues—I use that term to encompass the whole chamber—for their support. It is a great privilege—there is no misunderstanding that—to have placed upon me the leadership of the first Government of Scotland's new Parliament. It is a privilege that carries great responsibilities; I have no doubt about that. The people of Scotland look to us to use the Parliament to give them a better life and a better future. On that, we have common aims. We have had great powers granted to us: powers to develop a world-class education system; powers to build a modern health service; powers to unlock opportunities and to bind communities that have been torn apart by deprivation and social pressures. I promise that I will work with those who will work with me to use those powers for the benefit of the people of Scotland. We in this place have a particular role. This must be a Parliament of Scotland's people. We must look beyond the walls of this place to the people of Scotland. I pledge that I will lead a Government that will listen and respond to what the people of Scotland tell us. Co-operation is always possible where there are common aims and values, even though there may be great and dividing differences in other areas. I want to harness that potential good will, not just on behalf of this Parliament and those who have the privilege of serving in it, but on behalf of the people of Scotland. Thank you.Applause.", "EditedTextHTML": "I would like to thank all my

colleagues—I use that term to encompass the whole chamber—for their support.

It is a great privilege—there is no misunderstanding that—to have placed upon me the leadership of the first Government of Scotland's new Parliament. It is a privilege that carries great responsibilities; I have no doubt about that. The people of Scotland look to us to use the Parliament to give them a better life and a better future. On that, we have common aims.

We have had great powers granted to us: powers to develop a world-class education system; powers to build a modern health service; powers to unlock opportunities and to bind communities that have been torn apart by deprivation and social pressures. I promise that I will work with those who will work with me to use those powers for the benefit of the people of Scotland.

We in this place have a particular role. This must be a Parliament of Scotland's people. We must look beyond the walls of this place to the people of Scotland. I pledge that I will lead a Government that will listen and respond to what the people of Scotland tell us. Co-operation is always possible where there are common aims and values, even though there may be great and dividing differences in other areas. I want to harness that potential good will, not just on behalf of this Parliament and those who have the privilege of serving in it, but on behalf of the people of Scotland.

Thank you.

[Applause.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C703496", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 13 May 1999", "ID": 4161 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "First Minister", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26588, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26588, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 107.0, "ContributionID": 703496, "EditedText": "On a point of order, Mr Presiding Officer. Surely at this point you should take speeches from the party leaders. Dennis Canavan has made his point and he stood in the election on behalf of his party—", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order, Mr Presiding Officer. Surely at this point you should take speeches from the party leaders. Dennis Canavan has made his point and he stood in the election on behalf of his party—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703497", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 13 May 1999", "ID": 4161 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "First Minister", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26588, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26588, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 109.0, "ContributionID": 703497, "EditedText": "Please sit down, Mr Gallie. I have said that I will not take bogus points of order. We can have plenty of points of argument later on. Mr Wallace, the floor is yours.", "EditedTextHTML": "Please sit down, Mr Gallie. I have said that I will not take bogus points of order. We can have plenty of points of argument later on. Mr Wallace, the floor is yours.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C703501", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 13 May 1999", "ID": 4161 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "First Minister", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26588, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26588, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 117.0, "ContributionID": 703501, "EditedText": "I rise in the spirit of the consensual nature of the Parliament. Robin and I are representatives of small political parties, and it is only proper that I remind David McLetchie that, regardless of what he or members of the other three parties think of the Lib-Lab pact, a further two political parties are represented in this chamber. I hope that they will remember that in the future. As the representative of a small party, I think that it is important to congratulate Mr Dewar on his nomination as First Minister. I hope that the consensus on raising the living standards of ordinary working men and women across Scotland that was expressed during the campaign will become the priority of this Parliament. As long as bills are introduced with that in mind, the Scottish Socialist party will be willing to support Donald. Applause.", "EditedTextHTML": "I rise in the spirit of the consensual nature of the Parliament. Robin and I are representatives of small political parties, and it is only proper that I remind David McLetchie that, regardless of what he or members of the other three parties think of the Lib-Lab pact, a further two political parties are represented in this chamber. I hope that they will remember that in the future.

As the representative of a small party, I think that it is important to congratulate Mr Dewar on his nomination as First Minister. I hope that the consensus on raising the living standards of ordinary working men and women across Scotland that was expressed during the campaign will become the priority of this Parliament. As long as bills are introduced with that in mind, the Scottish Socialist party will be willing to support Donald. [Applause.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703446", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 13 May 1999", "ID": 4161 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "First Minister", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26588, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26588, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 6.0, "ContributionID": 703446, "EditedText": "Dennis CanavanDonald DewarDavid McLetchieMr Alex Salmond", "EditedTextHTML": "Dennis Canavan
Donald Dewar
David McLetchie
Mr Alex Salmond

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703449", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 13 May 1999", "ID": 4161 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "First Minister", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26588, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26588, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 11.0, "ContributionID": 703449, "EditedText": "I considered that matter this morning. I have to inform the Parliament that there was no agreement among the candidates as to what should happen. The standing orders are silent on the matter—there do not have to be any speeches. Frankly, we are not engaged in a political debate this afternoon; we are engaged in an election. I do not have to allow any speeches at all. However, I have decided to allow each of the candidates to make a two-minute address. That seems to be a reasonable compromise in the circumstances. Some of the candidates were happier that we should proceed straight to the ballot, as we did yesterday. I have already apologised for the fact that my decision to allow a two-minute address was not fully conveyed to you; I am sorry.", "EditedTextHTML": "I considered that matter this morning. I have to inform the Parliament that there was no agreement among the candidates as to what should happen. The standing orders are silent on the matter—there do not have to be any speeches.

Frankly, we are not engaged in a political debate this afternoon; we are engaged in an election. I do not have to allow any speeches at all. However, I have decided to allow each of the candidates to make a two-minute address. That seems to be a reasonable compromise in the circumstances. Some of the candidates were happier that we should proceed straight to the ballot, as we did yesterday.

I have already apologised for the fact that my decision to allow a two-minute address was not fully conveyed to you; I am sorry.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C703450", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 13 May 1999", "ID": 4161 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "First Minister", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26588, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26588, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 13.0, "ContributionID": 703450, "EditedText": "Mr Presiding Officer, I accept your apology for the fact that we were not informed earlier and I accept that you cannot be held responsible for everything. However, I have to object to the idea that this is not a political discussion. We are about to appoint the First Minister for Scotland. That is a very political appointment and surely all the candidates should have the right to present their cases to win the support of each and every MSP in this chamber. If possible, I would like to put it to the vote that each of the properly nominated candidates has 10 minutes in which to present his case. I do not know whether we can formally put it to the vote; I think that that would be at your discretion. Ben Wallace (North-East Scotland) (Con)rose—", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Presiding Officer, I accept your apology for the fact that we were not informed earlier and I accept that you cannot be held responsible for everything. However, I have to object to the idea that this is not a political discussion. We are about to appoint the First Minister for Scotland. That is a very political appointment and surely all the candidates should have the right to present their cases to win the support of each and every MSP in this chamber. If possible, I would like to put it to the vote that each of the properly nominated candidates has 10 minutes in which to present his case. I do not know whether we can formally put it to the vote; I think that that would be at your discretion.

Ben Wallace (North-East Scotland) (Con)

rose—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703451", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 13 May 1999", "ID": 4161 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "First Minister", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26588, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26588, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 15.0, "ContributionID": 703451, "EditedText": "Mr Wallace, is your point of order on the same subject?", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Wallace, is your point of order on the same subject?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1916E38P70C703452", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 13 May 1999", "ID": 4161 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "First Minister", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26588, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26588, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Ben", "ID": 1916, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "North East Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Ben Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Ben Wallace: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 17.0, "ContributionID": 703452, "EditedText": "No, it is not.", "EditedTextHTML": "No, it is not.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703453", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 13 May 1999", "ID": 4161 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "First Minister", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26588, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26588, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 19.0, "ContributionID": 703453, "EditedText": "I will dispose of Mr Sheridan's point of order first. Does anyone else wish to speak on the same point? All I can say is that I have a remarkably elastic watch, but it will not be elastic enough to stretch to 10 minutes. I trust that members will accept that ruling.", "EditedTextHTML": "I will dispose of Mr Sheridan's point of order first. Does anyone else wish to speak on the same point?

All I can say is that I have a remarkably elastic watch, but it will not be elastic enough to stretch to 10 minutes. I trust that members will accept that ruling.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C703461", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 13 May 1999", "ID": 4161 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "First Minister", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26588, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26588, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 35.0, "ContributionID": 703461, "EditedText": "Having managed to raise the first successful point of order, I think that the democracy of the proceedings is more important than the gaps and I therefore ask that the voting be done that way.", "EditedTextHTML": "Having managed to raise the first successful point of order, I think that the democracy of the proceedings is more important than the gaps and I therefore ask that the voting be done that way.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703462", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 13 May 1999", "ID": 4161 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "First Minister", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26588, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26588, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 37.0, "ContributionID": 703462, "EditedText": "The point is that, under the standing orders, each election is a separate one. The election is for Mr Canavan or against him. That is the way it is set out. I am sorry, but I am bound by the standing orders and that is how they instruct us to proceed. It is not a competitive election among four candidates.", "EditedTextHTML": "The point is that, under the standing orders, each election is a separate one. The election is for Mr Canavan or against him. That is the way it is set out. I am sorry, but I am bound by the standing orders and that is how they instruct us to proceed. It is not a competitive election among four candidates.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2135E167P460C703463", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 13 May 1999", "ID": 4161 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "First Minister", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26588, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26588, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Russell, Michael", "ID": 2135, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Michael Russell", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Michael Russell (South of Scotland) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 39.0, "ContributionID": 703463, "EditedText": "On a point of order. There is a provision in the standing orders that, if the electronic system is not satisfactory for the vote, voting can be conducted by normal ballot. I request that you consider that option.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. There is a provision in the standing orders that, if the electronic system is not satisfactory for the vote, voting can be conducted by normal ballot. I request that you consider that option.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703466", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 13 May 1999", "ID": 4161 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "First Minister", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26588, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26588, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 45.0, "ContributionID": 703466, "EditedText": "The standing orders are laid down in statute and we have to go through the appointment of a Procedures Committee, which will revise them and come back to the Parliament. I am afraid that we are all in the same position. However, I shall do my best, within the standing orders, to meet the wishes of members. They have expressed a wish to hear all four candidates before voting and, since it was my decision that there should be speeches, I think that that is quite reasonable.", "EditedTextHTML": "The standing orders are laid down in statute and we have to go through the appointment of a Procedures Committee, which will revise them and come back to the Parliament. I am afraid that we are all in the same position. However, I shall do my best, within the standing orders, to meet the wishes of members. They have expressed a wish to hear all four candidates before voting and, since it was my decision that there should be speeches, I think that that is quite reasonable.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703468", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 13 May 1999", "ID": 4161 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "First Minister", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26588, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26588, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 49.0, "ContributionID": 703468, "EditedText": "I have just agreed to that.", "EditedTextHTML": "I have just agreed to that.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C703469", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 13 May 1999", "ID": 4161 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "First Minister", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26588, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26588, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 51.0, "ContributionID": 703469, "EditedText": "Members on this side of the chamber hope that, once people have heard Dennis speak, they will agree to vote for him.", "EditedTextHTML": "Members on this side of the chamber hope that, once people have heard Dennis speak, they will agree to vote for him.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C703473", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 13 May 1999", "ID": 4161 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "First Minister", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26588, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26588, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie (Lothians) (Con): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 59.0, "ContributionID": 703473, "EditedText": "I am well aware that, unless there is a sudden, widespread and highly unlikely outbreak of common sense, my candidacy for First Minister will not succeed this afternoon. However, I will lay down two important and symbolic markers for this Parliament and for my party. First, my candidacy will symbolise our determination to be a constructive Opposition in the Parliament, working to make it a success for Scotland in the context of the United Kingdom. The Scottish Conservatives are the unionist alternative to the Lib-Lab Government that has been stitched up behind the backs of the voters, just as, time and again during the election campaign, we predicted. With respect to the singular achievements of three individual members of the Parliament, as from today Scotland no longer has a four-party system; rather, it has a three-party system. The fortunes of Labour and of the Liberal Democrats are inextricably linked, and are on the wane. We should thank Mr Dewar and Mr Wallace for this simplification, but it comes with a hefty price tag: the second deception and betrayal of our young people and their families—this time by the Liberal Democrats—and the continuation of Labour's £3,000 tax on learning. Others may bend out of self-interest, but we are resolute in our determination to bring the matter of tuition fees to this chamber at the earliest opportunity and to see them abolished in Scotland. The second principle that I wish to affirm by standing for this office is the determination of the Scottish Conservatives to be not just a parliamentary party in Scotland, but a party which aspires to government in Scotland again. Today, our ambition will almost certainly not be fulfilled, but it is a goal which I am determined we will one day achieve. It is with great pride that, as the first in my party to do so, I submit my candidacy for this office to this Parliament. Applause.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am well aware that, unless there is a sudden, widespread and highly unlikely outbreak of common sense, my candidacy for First Minister will not succeed this afternoon. However, I will lay down two important and symbolic markers for this Parliament and for my party.

First, my candidacy will symbolise our determination to be a constructive Opposition in the Parliament, working to make it a success for Scotland in the context of the United Kingdom. The Scottish Conservatives are the unionist alternative to the Lib-Lab Government that has been stitched up behind the backs of the voters, just as, time and again during the election campaign, we predicted.

With respect to the singular achievements of three individual members of the Parliament, as from today Scotland no longer has a four-party system; rather, it has a three-party system. The fortunes of Labour and of the Liberal Democrats are inextricably linked, and are on the wane. We should thank Mr Dewar and Mr Wallace for this simplification, but it comes with a hefty price tag: the second deception and betrayal of our young people and their families—this time by the Liberal Democrats—and the continuation of Labour's £3,000 tax on learning. Others may bend out of self-interest, but we are resolute in our determination to bring the matter of tuition fees to this chamber at the earliest opportunity and to see them abolished in Scotland.

The second principle that I wish to affirm by standing for this office is the determination of the Scottish Conservatives to be not just a parliamentary party in Scotland, but a party which aspires to government in Scotland again. Today, our ambition will almost certainly not be fulfilled, but it is a goal which I am determined we will one day achieve. It is with great pride that, as the first in my party to do so, I submit my candidacy for this office to this Parliament. [Applause.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C703475", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 13 May 1999", "ID": 4161 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "First Minister", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26588, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26588, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Alex Salmond (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 63.0, "ContributionID": 703475, "EditedText": "I am making the fourth speech, and that rather makes the point that this is a Parliament of minorities—some are bigger than others, but none the less it is a Parliament of minorities. After last week's vote, it was said to me that seven out of 10 people had not voted for the Scottish National party. That is true, but six out of 10 people did not vote for the Labour party. In the second vote the figure was two out of three. Incidentally, that was the lowest Labour vote in Scotland since 1931. There are majority positions in the platform that we put forward. There is a majority in this Parliament, on a free vote, to abolish tuition fees and to restore support to students from low- income families. It would be a dreadful start for this new Parliament if that majority was somehow frustrated by some deal that has been done behind the scenes. Mr Canavan said that we should all know about the deal. What concerns me even more is that some Liberal members may not know the full extent of the deal. For the Parliament's sake, it would be a bad start if that majority position, for which people voted last week, was frustrated this week. We should vote to allow the majority will to prevail, and, to me, tuition fees are non-negotiable. There is a degree of concern about the threat that the private finance initiative poses to vital public services such as health and education. That concern extends outwith the SNP and into the ranks of other parties in this Parliament. That concern, and the support in this Parliament for the proper funding of public services, should be reflected. As a candidate for First Minister, I would like to reflect it. After last week's local elections, there is mounting concern—perhaps majority concern in this Parliament—about why there is not proportional representation for local government in Scotland. I would like to see that reflected in the way in which an Administration pursues its policies in Scotland. On some minority issues, such as giving people in Scotland the right to vote for national freedom and independence, we hope to build a majority. However, over and above those individual issues there is an overriding one that should be part and parcel of the hopes of every member of this chamber; that whoever is elected should be Scotland's First Minister and not play second fiddle to forces in London, whether that be the Prime Minister or his press secretary, who seemed to take such an interest in the negotiations that were going on. Mr Dewar said that whoever is elected First Minister should be Scotland's servant. I very much agree with that, but whoever is nominated for appointment as First Minister by this chamber should also be Scotland's voice, and I am proud to put my nomination forward. Applause.", "EditedTextHTML": "I am making the fourth speech, and that rather makes the point that this is a Parliament of minorities—some are bigger than others, but none the less it is a Parliament of minorities. After last week's vote, it was said to me that seven out of 10 people had not voted for the Scottish National party. That is true, but six out of 10 people did not vote for the Labour party. In the second vote the figure was two out of three. Incidentally, that was the lowest Labour vote in Scotland since 1931.

There are majority positions in the platform that we put forward. There is a majority in this Parliament, on a free vote, to abolish tuition fees and to restore support to students from low- income families. It would be a dreadful start for this new Parliament if that majority was somehow frustrated by some deal that has been done behind the scenes. Mr Canavan said that we should all know about the deal. What concerns me even more is that some Liberal members may not know the full extent of the deal. For the Parliament's sake, it would be a bad start if that majority position, for which people voted last week, was frustrated this week. We should vote to allow the majority will to prevail, and, to me, tuition fees are non-negotiable.

There is a degree of concern about the threat that the private finance initiative poses to vital public services such as health and education. That concern extends outwith the SNP and into the ranks of other parties in this Parliament. That concern, and the support in this Parliament for the proper funding of public services, should be reflected. As a candidate for First Minister, I would like to reflect it.

After last week's local elections, there is mounting concern—perhaps majority concern in this Parliament—about why there is not proportional representation for local government in Scotland. I would like to see that reflected in the way in which an Administration pursues its policies in Scotland.

On some minority issues, such as giving people in Scotland the right to vote for national freedom and independence, we hope to build a majority. However, over and above those individual issues there is an overriding one that should be part and parcel of the hopes of every member of this chamber; that whoever is elected should be Scotland's First Minister and not play second fiddle to forces in London, whether that be the Prime Minister or his press secretary, who seemed to take such an interest in the negotiations that were going on.

Mr Dewar said that whoever is elected First Minister should be Scotland's servant. I very much

agree with that, but whoever is nominated for appointment as First Minister by this chamber should also be Scotland's voice, and I am proud to put my nomination forward. [Applause.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703477", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 13 May 1999", "ID": 4161 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "First Minister", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26588, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26588, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 67.0, "ContributionID": 703477, "EditedText": "Members voted.", "EditedTextHTML": "Members voted.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703489", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 13 May 1999", "ID": 4161 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "First Minister", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26588, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26588, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 94.0, "ContributionID": 703489, "EditedText": "I can assure you that in debates on other issues, the abstain button will mean abstain. In this particular case, the yes button is being used as a way of recording a vote. I did not invent the system. Laughter. I ask members to be patient; we have to wait because we must check the electronic lists, to ensure that nobody has cast more than one vote. The number of votes cast is as follows:", "EditedTextHTML": "I can assure you that in debates on other issues, the abstain button will mean abstain. In this particular case, the yes button is being used as a way of recording a vote. I did not invent the system. [Laughter.] I ask members to be patient; we have to wait because we must check the electronic lists, to ensure that nobody has cast more than one vote.

The number of votes cast is as follows:

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703495", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 13 May 1999", "ID": 4161 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "First Minister", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26588, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26588, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 105.0, "ContributionID": 703495, "EditedText": "I now call Mr Jim Wallace to speak.", "EditedTextHTML": "I now call Mr Jim Wallace to speak.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2077E174P347C703498", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 13 May 1999", "ID": 4161 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "First Minister", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26588, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26588, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Wallace, Mr Jim", "ID": 2077, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Orkney" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Jim Wallace", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Jim Wallace (Orkney) (LD): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 111.0, "ContributionID": 703498, "EditedText": "On behalf of my party, I congratulate Donald Dewar on his nomination as the Parliament's First Minister. We all recognise that that is a very important and responsible role and I wish him every success in discharging its responsibilities. Mr Dewar said that he looked forward to working closely with colleagues. Depending on what my colleagues and his colleagues decide—perhaps later today—that working relationship may be very close indeed. I hope that it will be, because I believe that many of the aims that Mr Dewar has set out are shared not only by his party and by my party, but by many others in the Parliament. I hope that, together, we will show that the Parliament can make a difference to the people of Scotland— a difference for the better. We will be judged on that over the coming four years.", "EditedTextHTML": "On behalf of my party, I congratulate Donald Dewar on his nomination as the Parliament's First Minister. We all recognise that that is a very important and responsible role and I wish him every success in discharging its responsibilities.

Mr Dewar said that he looked forward to working closely with colleagues. Depending on what my colleagues and his colleagues decide—perhaps later today—that working relationship may be very close indeed. I hope that it will be, because I believe that many of the aims that Mr Dewar has set out are shared not only by his party and by my party, but by many others in the Parliament. I hope that, together, we will show that the Parliament can make a difference to the people of Scotland— a difference for the better. We will be judged on that over the coming four years.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2188E70P92C703502", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 13 May 1999", "ID": 4161 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "First Minister", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26588, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26588, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harper, Robin", "ID": 2188, "PartyName": "Scottish Green Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Green", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robin Harper", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robin Harper (Lothians) (Green): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 119.0, "ContributionID": 703502, "EditedText": "As the very last member to be elected to this Parliament, and as the first Green ever to be elected to any Parliament in Britain, I wish to offer my unqualified congratulations to Donald Dewar on his nomination to this post, which he so richly deserves.", "EditedTextHTML": "As the very last member to be elected to this Parliament, and as the first Green ever to be elected to any Parliament in Britain, I wish to offer my unqualified congratulations to Donald Dewar on his nomination to this post, which he so richly deserves.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C703503", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 13 May 1999", "ID": 4161 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "First Minister", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26588, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26588, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 121.0, "ContributionID": 703503, "EditedText": "I wish to raise a point of order.", "EditedTextHTML": "I wish to raise a point of order.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2172E41P65C703505", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 13 May 1999", "ID": 4161 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "First Minister", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26588, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26588, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Gallie, Phil", "ID": 2172, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "South of Scotland" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Phil Gallie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Phil Gallie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 125.0, "ContributionID": 703505, "EditedText": "I seek your aid on a particular issue. It may have come to the attention of many members that mail deliveries from our constituencies or regions cannot be made under a freepost system. We will be given mail facilities in Edinburgh, but not in our areas. I appeal to you, Mr Presiding Officer, to examine this issue and to see whether you can help members to address this wrong.", "EditedTextHTML": "I seek your aid on a particular issue. It may have come to the attention of many members that mail deliveries from our constituencies or regions cannot be made under a freepost system. We will be given mail facilities in Edinburgh, but not in our areas. I appeal to you, Mr Presiding Officer, to examine this issue and to see whether you can help members to address this wrong.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703507", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 13 May 1999", "ID": 4161 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "First Minister", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26588, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26588, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 129.0, "ContributionID": 703507, "EditedText": "Meeting closed at 15:17.", "EditedTextHTML": "Meeting closed at 15:17.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703445", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 13 May 1999", "ID": 4161 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "First Minister", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26588, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26588, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 4.0, "ContributionID": 703445, "EditedText": "This afternoon's business will be devoted to the selection of the nominee for appointment as First Minister. Business is scheduled to be completed by 5.30 pm. If it is not completed by then, the standing orders allow the meeting to continue so that we can complete the selection process. However, if business is completed before 5.30 pm, I shall close the meeting. The Scotland Act 1998 requires the Parliament to nominate one of its members for appointment by Her Majesty as First Minister. The selection of a nominee will be conducted in accordance with the provisions of rule 11.10 of the standing orders. Before we begin the selection process, you may find it helpful if I outline the voting process and explain how the electronic voting system works, as this will be the first time that you have used the system for parliamentary business. To register a vote, you should insert your card in the console at the desk with the picture facing you, so that you can gaze at it with admiration all afternoon. Inserting the card will activate the voting and microphone systems. The red light on the console should go out when you insert the card. You are nothing without that piece of plastic—I cannot stress that enough. You can neither vote nor speak without it, so it is important that you have it. If any technical problems arise, rather than raising a point of order, please tell the clerks at the back of the chamber, who will be able to help you. If you want to speak, you must press the white microphone button once. That indicates a request to speak on the screen on my desk. However, you cannot speak until called to do so—the white button does not activate the microphone. When you speak, you should stand. If members want to make a point of order, they should activate the white button and stand to call for a point of order. They can then speak when I call them to speak. I shall now explain the voting process for this afternoon's selection of a nominee for appointment as First Minister. I have received four valid nominations for appointment as First Minister. They are, in alphabetical order:", "EditedTextHTML": "This afternoon's business will be devoted to the selection of the nominee for appointment as First Minister. Business is scheduled to be completed by 5.30 pm. If it is not completed by then, the standing orders allow the meeting to continue so that we can complete the selection process. However, if business is completed before 5.30 pm, I shall close the meeting.

The Scotland Act 1998 requires the Parliament to nominate one of its members for appointment by Her Majesty as First Minister. The selection of a nominee will be conducted in accordance with the provisions of rule 11.10 of the standing orders.

Before we begin the selection process, you may find it helpful if I outline the voting process and explain how the electronic voting system works, as this will be the first time that you have used the system for parliamentary business.

To register a vote, you should insert your card in the console at the desk with the picture facing you, so that you can gaze at it with admiration all afternoon. Inserting the card will activate the voting and microphone systems. The red light on the console should go out when you insert the card. You are nothing without that piece of plastic—I cannot stress that enough. You can neither vote nor speak without it, so it is important that you have it. If any technical problems arise, rather than raising a point of order, please tell the clerks at the back of the chamber, who will be able to help you.

If you want to speak, you must press the white microphone button once. That indicates a request to speak on the screen on my desk. However, you cannot speak until called to do so—the white button does not activate the microphone. When you speak, you should stand. If members want to make a point of order, they should activate the white button and stand to call for a point of order. They can then speak when I call them to speak.

I shall now explain the voting process for this afternoon's selection of a nominee for appointment as First Minister. I have received four valid nominations for appointment as First Minister. They are, in alphabetical order:

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C703448", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 13 May 1999", "ID": 4161 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "First Minister", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26588, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26588, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan (Glasgow) (SSP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 9.0, "ContributionID": 703448, "EditedText": "I wish to raise a point of order about the time that has been allocated for each of the candidates' presentation. You are aware that we were informed only a few moments ago that the time for presentations was to be restricted to two minutes. That runs counter to the information that we had this morning, when no time limit was to be imposed. I accept that you, as the Presiding Officer, and all the members would not want us to be here until the wee small hours; but I would have thought it appropriate to allow 10 minutes for each of the four candidates, which would amount to only 40 minutes. Given that yesterday we met all day and a lot of time was taken up with manual voting, I am sure that it would be refreshing to have some political discussion and debate in the chamber. Therefore I respectfully request that you use your discretion to allow 10 minutes for each of the candidates to speak.", "EditedTextHTML": "I wish to raise a point of order about the time that has been allocated for each of the candidates' presentation.

You are aware that we were informed only a few moments ago that the time for presentations was to be restricted to two minutes. That runs counter to the information that we had this morning, when no time limit was to be imposed. I accept that you, as the Presiding Officer, and all the members would not want us to be here until the wee small hours; but I would have thought it appropriate to allow 10 minutes for each of the four candidates, which would amount to only 40 minutes. Given that yesterday we met all day and a lot of time was

taken up with manual voting, I am sure that it would be refreshing to have some political discussion and debate in the chamber. Therefore I respectfully request that you use your discretion to allow 10 minutes for each of the candidates to speak.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703455", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 13 May 1999", "ID": 4161 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "First Minister", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26588, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26588, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 23.0, "ContributionID": 703455, "EditedText": "One of the worst habits of the House of Commons in the past decade has been the bogus use of points of order. I propose to be very strict; points of argument are not points of order. Points of order are for the occupant of the chair; if we degenerate into the habit of using them as points of argument, we shall develop some of the worst habits of a place that some of us have been glad to leave. Applause. We will proceed to the first round of voting. I call Dennis Canavan to speak to his nomination.", "EditedTextHTML": "One of the worst habits of the House of Commons in the past decade has been the bogus use of points of order. I propose to be very strict; points of argument are not points of order. Points of order are for the occupant of the chair; if we degenerate into the habit of using them as points of argument, we shall develop some of the worst habits of a place that some of us have been glad to leave. [Applause.]

We will proceed to the first round of voting. I call Dennis Canavan to speak to his nomination.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C703456", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 13 May 1999", "ID": 4161 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "First Minister", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26588, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26588, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan (Falkirk West): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 25.0, "ContributionID": 703456, "EditedText": "First, I thank Tommy Sheridan and Robin Harper for proposing and seconding me. I also thank my constituents in Falkirk West and the voters throughout Central Scotland who supported me in the second ballot and helped to reinforce the message from the voters of Falkirk West. I find myself in the unique situation of having won a seat in the Parliament on both ballots, but it may come as some consolation to other members that I intend to take only one seat and register only one vote. I am also unique in being the only member of the Parliament who is not a member of any party. In view of that fact, and in view of the fact that no party has an overall majority in the Parliament, there may be some advantage in our having a leader of the Administration who is a member with no vested interest in any party. Laughter. Members may laugh, but I could have brokered a better agreement than the shabby deal that the leader of the Scottish Labour party and the Liberal Democrats seem to have cobbled up behind closed doors. Part of the problem seems to be that somebody was pulling the strings down in London. Take tuition fees, for example. The majority of members of this Parliament were elected on a clear commitment to abolish tuition fees; that commitment was given to the people of Scotland. Now there is to be a review—a review is just Westminster-speak for a fudge. We have just had a review—it was called an election. We, the people who want to abolish tuition fees, won the election. I would like to see the abolition of tuition fees combined with the restoration of student grants, particularly for students from low-income families. I am against this review and this Lib-Lab pact, because we do not know what is in it apart from the fudge on tuition fees. We are being asked not just to elect a First Minister, but—if we vote for Donald Dewar—to buy a pig in a poke. When I went to the document office of the Parliament this morning and asked what was in the Lib-Lab agreement, nobody could tell me. I will say what I think should be in any cross- party agreement: we need more action on jobs, more action on public services and the retention and financing of public services without recourse to the private finance initiative. We need the restoration of a free education system throughout Scotland. We need to improve our national health service and ensure that it remains the property of the people, is accountable to the people and responds to the needs of the people. Above all, we need a First Minister for Scotland who will speak for Scotland instead of someone who will act as Tony Blair's puppet. If members of the Scottish Parliament accord me the privilege of electing me as First Minister, I shall do my best to speak and act for Scotland and I shall fight, first and foremost, for the interests of the people of Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "First, I thank Tommy Sheridan and Robin Harper for proposing and seconding me. I also thank my constituents in Falkirk West and the voters throughout Central Scotland who supported me in the second ballot and helped to reinforce the message from the voters of Falkirk West. I find myself in the unique situation of having won a seat in the Parliament on both ballots, but it may come as some consolation to other members that I intend to take only one seat and register only one vote.

I am also unique in being the only member of the Parliament who is not a member of any party. In view of that fact, and in view of the fact that no party has an overall majority in the Parliament, there may be some advantage in our having a leader of the Administration who is a member with no vested interest in any party. [Laughter.] Members may laugh, but I could have brokered a better agreement than the shabby deal that the leader of the Scottish Labour party and the Liberal Democrats seem to have cobbled up behind closed doors. Part of the problem seems to be that somebody was pulling the strings down in London.

Take tuition fees, for example. The majority of members of this Parliament were elected on a clear commitment to abolish tuition fees; that commitment was given to the people of Scotland. Now there is to be a review—a review is just Westminster-speak for a fudge. We have just had a review—it was called an election. We, the people who want to abolish tuition fees, won the election. I would like to see the abolition of tuition fees combined with the restoration of student grants, particularly for students from low-income families.

I am against this review and this Lib-Lab pact, because we do not know what is in it apart from the fudge on tuition fees. We are being asked not just to elect a First Minister, but—if we vote for Donald Dewar—to buy a pig in a poke. When I went to the document office of the Parliament this

morning and asked what was in the Lib-Lab agreement, nobody could tell me.

I will say what I think should be in any cross- party agreement: we need more action on jobs, more action on public services and the retention and financing of public services without recourse to the private finance initiative. We need the restoration of a free education system throughout Scotland. We need to improve our national health service and ensure that it remains the property of the people, is accountable to the people and responds to the needs of the people. Above all, we need a First Minister for Scotland who will speak for Scotland instead of someone who will act as Tony Blair's puppet.

If members of the Scottish Parliament accord me the privilege of electing me as First Minister, I shall do my best to speak and act for Scotland and I shall fight, first and foremost, for the interests of the people of Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703457", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 13 May 1999", "ID": 4161 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "First Minister", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26588, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26588, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 27.0, "ContributionID": 703457, "EditedText": "Thank you very much indeed, and thank you for respecting the limits to my elastic watch. Members who wish to cast their vote for Dennis Canavan should be ready to do so now. The system has been activated. You can press your yes button to vote. You may either vote yes or not vote at all. You have 30 seconds in which to cast your vote for Mr Canavan.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you very much indeed, and thank you for respecting the limits to my elastic watch.

Members who wish to cast their vote for Dennis Canavan should be ready to do so now. The system has been activated. You can press your yes button to vote. You may either vote yes or not vote at all. You have 30 seconds in which to cast your vote for Mr Canavan.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C703458", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 13 May 1999", "ID": 4161 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "First Minister", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26588, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26588, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Alex Salmond (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 29.0, "ContributionID": 703458, "EditedText": "On a point of order. Would it not be more common to hear all the speeches before the voting?", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. Would it not be more common to hear all the speeches before the voting?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703479", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 13 May 1999", "ID": 4161 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "First Minister", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26588, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26588, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 71.0, "ContributionID": 703479, "EditedText": "Members voted.", "EditedTextHTML": "Members voted.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703480", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 13 May 1999", "ID": 4161 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "First Minister", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26588, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26588, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 73.0, "ContributionID": 703480, "EditedText": "The voting is closed. The next vote is for David McLetchie. Those who wish to vote for him should do so by pressing the yes button now.", "EditedTextHTML": "The voting is closed. The next vote is for David McLetchie. Those who wish to vote for him should do so by pressing the yes button now.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703485", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 13 May 1999", "ID": 4161 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "First Minister", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26588, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26588, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 83.0, "ContributionID": 703485, "EditedText": "Members voted.", "EditedTextHTML": "Members voted.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C703487", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 13 May 1999", "ID": 4161 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "First Minister", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26588, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26588, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 88.0, "ContributionID": 703487, "EditedText": "On a point of order, Mr Presiding Officer.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order, Mr Presiding Officer.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703488", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 13 May 1999", "ID": 4161 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "First Minister", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26588, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26588, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 90.0, "ContributionID": 703488, "EditedText": "I cannot take a point of order during a vote, but I shall do so in a second. The time for voting is closed. Dennis Canavan: On a point of order, Mr Presiding Officer. There is an abstain button on the console; for future reference, will you advise us whether to press yes if we want to abstain, or to press abstain if we want to abstain?", "EditedTextHTML": "I cannot take a point of order during a vote, but I shall do so in a second.
The time for voting is closed. Dennis Canavan: On a point of order, Mr Presiding Officer. There is an abstain button on the console; for future reference, will you advise us whether to press yes if we want to abstain, or to press abstain if we want to abstain?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703500", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 13 May 1999", "ID": 4161 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "First Minister", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26588, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26588, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 115.0, "ContributionID": 703500, "EditedText": "Your gesture was appreciated, Dennis, but if you do it again I will rule you out of order, as it is out of order to cross the well of the chamber. Laughter.", "EditedTextHTML": "Your gesture was appreciated, Dennis, but if you do it again I will rule you out of order, as it is out of order to cross the well of the chamber. [Laughter.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C703493", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 13 May 1999", "ID": 4161 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "First Minister", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26588, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26588, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Salmond: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 101.0, "ContributionID": 703493, "EditedText": "I would like to be the first to congratulate Donald on his elevation to the position of Scotland's first First Minister. It is no small thing to be the First Minister of Scotland in its first Administration for 300 years. I have known Donald for a considerable time, usually on opposing ends of debates and arguments in television studios. One thing I can say is that although I know and hope that Donald will speak for Scotland, he will certainly eat for Scotland at every opportunity. At this juncture, I wish him well. He should not look so surprised— this is well meant. I wish the Administration well in terms of the policies it wants to pursue; as yet, I do not know what the full terms of the Administration are, and I suspect that a number of people are waiting to ask the same question. I would like to say a few words about the nature of opposition. There has been some debate about how we can have the new consensus politics and still have vigorous debate. I suggest that we can have both. Those of us who have served in Westminster know full well what people mean when they talk about yah-boo reflex reaction politics. It is possible for us to avoid that in this new chamber. Therefore, as Leader of the Opposition, let me say that when the Administration proposes things that we think are in the interests of the Scottish people, we will not criticise for the sake of it. However, there will still be substantial issues—some of which Mr Canavan and I outlined a little earlier—that will provoke real political debate. That is necessary and part and parcel of any democratic chamber. In congratulating Donald today, I dedicate my party to being an innovative and determined Opposition. In many ways, such an Opposition is every bit as important to a new democracy as the Administration itself.", "EditedTextHTML": "I would like to be the first to congratulate Donald on his elevation to the position of Scotland's first First Minister. It is no small thing to be the First Minister of Scotland in its first Administration for 300 years.

I have known Donald for a considerable time, usually on opposing ends of debates and arguments in television studios. One thing I can say is that although I know and hope that Donald will speak for Scotland, he will certainly eat for Scotland at every opportunity. At this juncture, I wish him well. He should not look so surprised— this is well meant. I wish the Administration well in terms of the policies it wants to pursue; as yet, I do not know what the full terms of the Administration are, and I suspect that a number of people are waiting to ask the same question.

I would like to say a few words about the nature of opposition. There has been some debate about how we can have the new consensus politics and still have vigorous debate. I suggest that we can have both. Those of us who have served in Westminster know full well what people mean when they talk about yah-boo reflex reaction politics. It is possible for us to avoid that in this new chamber. Therefore, as Leader of the Opposition, let me say that when the Administration proposes things that we think are in the interests of the Scottish people, we will not criticise for the sake of it. However, there will still be substantial issues—some of which Mr Canavan and I outlined a little earlier—that will provoke real political debate. That is necessary and part and parcel of any democratic chamber.

In congratulating Donald today, I dedicate my party to being an innovative and determined Opposition. In many ways, such an Opposition is every bit as important to a new democracy as the Administration itself.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1961E56P80C703494", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 13 May 1999", "ID": 4161 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "First Minister", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26588, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26588, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "McLetchie, David", "ID": 1961, "PartyName": "Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Con", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "David McLetchie", "SpeakerDisplayName": "David McLetchie: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 103.0, "ContributionID": 703494, "EditedText": "On behalf of the Conservative party, I offer my congratulations to Donald Dewar on being the Parliament's nominee to Her Majesty the Queen for appointment as Scotland's First Minister. It is a great personal achievement on Donald's part and a great culmination to his career. On a personal level, I wish him fulfilment, added short-term lustre to a distinguished political career and, of course, a very happy retirement in 2003.", "EditedTextHTML": "On behalf of the Conservative party, I offer my congratulations to Donald Dewar on being the Parliament's nominee to Her Majesty the Queen for appointment as Scotland's First Minister. It is a great personal achievement on Donald's part and a great culmination to his career. On a personal level, I wish him fulfilment, added short-term lustre to a distinguished political career and, of course, a very happy retirement in 2003.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703504", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 13 May 1999", "ID": 4161 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "First Minister", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26588, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26588, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 123.0, "ContributionID": 703504, "EditedText": "I hope that it is a real one this time, Mr Gallie.", "EditedTextHTML": "I hope that it is a real one this time, Mr Gallie.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703506", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 13 May 1999", "ID": 4161 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "First Minister", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26588, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26588, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 127.0, "ContributionID": 703506, "EditedText": "Thank you, Mr Gallie. That was a genuine point of order. Under our standing orders, each party leader has to notify me of the name of their party's representative on the Parliamentary Bureau, which will meet for the first time on Monday, and an item on that issue will be on the agenda.", "EditedTextHTML": "Thank you, Mr Gallie. That was a genuine point of order. Under our standing orders, each party leader has to notify me of the name of their party's representative on the Parliamentary Bureau, which will meet for the first time on Monday, and an item on that issue will be on the agenda.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6391235+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1994E211P534C703465", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 13 May 1999", "ID": 4161 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-13T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "First Minister", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26588, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 3.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 3.0, "ID": 26588, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Fergus", "ID": 1994, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Fergus Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Fergus Ewing (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 43.0, "ContributionID": 703465, "EditedText": "On a point of order. I propose that there be a vote as to whether the standing orders are approved. Without the standing orders being approved, it is open to members to decide whether or not we follow the points of order made by Mr Salmond and Michael Russell before proceeding to vote in the way that you have suggested.", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order. I propose that there be a vote as to whether the standing orders are approved. Without the standing orders being approved, it is open to members to decide whether or not we follow the points of order made by Mr Salmond and Michael Russell before proceeding to vote in the way that you have suggested.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2026-05-13T02:00:28.6213377+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703376", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Oaths and Affirmations", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26584, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26584, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 15.0, "ContributionID": 703376, "EditedText": "Mr Alex Salmond (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)David McLetchie (Lothians) (Con)Mr Jim Wallace (Orkney) (LD)", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr Alex Salmond (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)

David McLetchie (Lothians) (Con)

Mr Jim Wallace (Orkney) (LD)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6078746+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2225E229P541C703383", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Oaths and Affirmations", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26584, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26584, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Sheridan, Tommy", "ID": 2225, "PartyName": "Scottish Socialist Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SSP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Glasgow" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Tommy Sheridan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Tommy Sheridan (Glasgow) (SSP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 24.0, "ContributionID": 703383, "EditedText": "Before making the affirmation, I would like to declare that as a democratically elected socialist, my vision for Scotland is of a democratic socialist republic, where the supreme sovereignty lies with the people of Scotland, not with an unelected monarch. I therefore make this affirmation under protest.", "EditedTextHTML": "Before making the affirmation, I would like to declare that as a democratically elected socialist, my vision for Scotland is of a democratic socialist republic, where the supreme sovereignty lies with the people of Scotland, not with an unelected monarch. I therefore make this affirmation under protest.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6078746+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703385", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Oaths and Affirmations", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26584, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26584, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 27.0, "ContributionID": 703385, "EditedText": "Tommy Sheridan (Glasgow) (SSP)Brian Adam (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Sarah Boyack (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)Scott Barrie (Dunfermline West) (Lab)Rhona Brankin (Midlothian) (Lab)Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP)Robert Brown (Glasgow) (LD)", "EditedTextHTML": "Tommy Sheridan (Glasgow) (SSP)

Brian Adam (North-East Scotland) (SNP)

Sarah Boyack (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)

Scott Barrie (Dunfermline West) (Lab)

Rhona Brankin (Midlothian) (Lab)

Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP)

Robert Brown (Glasgow) (LD)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6078746+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1863E284P532C703388", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Oaths and Affirmations", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26584, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26584, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Cunningham, Roseanna", "ID": 1863, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Perth" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Roseanna Cunningham", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Roseanna Cunningham (Perth) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 30.0, "ContributionID": 703388, "EditedText": "I assert that my primary loyalty is to the people of Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "I assert that my primary loyalty is to the people of Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6078746+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703389", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Oaths and Affirmations", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26584, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26584, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 32.0, "ContributionID": 703389, "EditedText": "The following member made a solemn affirmation:", "EditedTextHTML": "The following member made a solemn affirmation:

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6078746+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703390", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Oaths and Affirmations", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26584, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26584, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 33.0, "ContributionID": 703390, "EditedText": "Roseanna Cunningham (Perth) (SNP)", "EditedTextHTML": "Roseanna Cunningham (Perth) (SNP)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6078746+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703394", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Oaths and Affirmations", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26584, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26584, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 37.0, "ContributionID": 703394, "EditedText": "Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)Bruce Crawford (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Susan Deacon (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Linda Fabiani (Central Scotland) (SNP)Mr Kenneth Gibson (Glasgow) (SNP)Mrs Margaret Ewing (Moray) (SNP)Trish Godman (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)Hugh Henry (Paisley South) (Lab)Cathy Jamieson (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)", "EditedTextHTML": "Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)

Bruce Crawford (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)

Susan Deacon (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)

Linda Fabiani (Central Scotland) (SNP)

Mr Kenneth Gibson (Glasgow) (SNP)

Mrs Margaret Ewing (Moray) (SNP)

Trish Godman (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)

Hugh Henry (Paisley South) (Lab)

Cathy Jamieson (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6078746+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1878E208P502C703400", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Oaths and Affirmations", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26584, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26584, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Dr Winnie", "ID": 1878, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Winnie Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 46.0, "ContributionID": 703400, "EditedText": "I would like to announce a short break. I shall make my speech at the end of the morning.", "EditedTextHTML": "I would like to announce a short break.

I shall make my speech at the end of the morning.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703405", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Oaths and Affirmations", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26584, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26584, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 54.0, "ContributionID": 703405, "EditedText": "Tavish Scott (Shetland) (LD)Elaine Smith (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)Mr Mike Rumbles (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD) Mrs Margaret Smith (Edinburgh West) (LD)Michael Russell (South of Scotland) (SNP)Ben Wallace (North-East Scotland) (Con)Mr Gil Paterson (Central Scotland) (SNP)Sir David Steel (Lothians) (LD)Mr Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD) Ms Sandra White (Glasgow) (SNP)Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP)Karen Whitefield (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)Andrew Wilson (Central Scotland) (SNP)John Young (West of Scotland) (Con)Mr Murray Tosh (South of Scotland) (Con)Allan Wilson (Cunninghame North) (Lab)Nicol Stephen (Aberdeen South) (LD)", "EditedTextHTML": "Tavish Scott (Shetland) (LD)

Elaine Smith (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)

Mr Mike Rumbles (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD) Mrs Margaret Smith (Edinburgh West) (LD)

Michael Russell (South of Scotland) (SNP)

Ben Wallace (North-East Scotland) (Con)

Mr Gil Paterson (Central Scotland) (SNP)

Sir David Steel (Lothians) (LD)

Mr Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD) Ms Sandra White (Glasgow) (SNP)

Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP)

Karen Whitefield (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)

Andrew Wilson (Central Scotland) (SNP)

John Young (West of Scotland) (Con)

Mr Murray Tosh (South of Scotland) (Con)

Allan Wilson (Cunninghame North) (Lab)

Nicol Stephen (Aberdeen South) (LD)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1878E208P502C703413", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Presiding Officer", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26585, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 58.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 58.0, "ID": 26585, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Dr Winnie", "ID": 1878, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Winnie Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 72.0, "ContributionID": 703413, "EditedText": "There is one minute remaining in which members can vote.", "EditedTextHTML": "There is one minute remaining in which members can vote.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P319C703419", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Presiding Officer", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26585, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 58.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 58.0, "ID": 26585, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 83.0, "ContributionID": 703419, "EditedText": "I thank members for the honour and the responsibility which I have been given. I undertake to set aside party affiliation and to be the servant of the whole Parliament. Last week, William McIlvanney, in a poem, talked about the Scottish lion becoming a kitten again, which must be cherished. We must cherish this Parliament. This is the start of a new sang. The elections for the positions of Deputy Presiding Officer will take place in the chamber at 3:40 pm. Members who wish to make nominations for either or both positions of Deputy Presiding Officer should pick up nomination papers from the clerk in my office on the first floor of the Assembly Hall. Nomination papers must be signed by the nominee, the member nominating and the seconder. Completed papers must be handed to one of the clerks in my office not later than 15 minutes before the time I have set for the vote. In other words, there can be no nominating within 15 minutes of the vote. Members may nominate from 3:10 pm. Dr Ewing: I move, That the meeting of the Parliament be adjourned until 3:40 pm.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank members for the honour and the responsibility which I have been given. I undertake to set aside party affiliation and to be the servant of the whole Parliament.

Last week, William McIlvanney, in a poem, talked about the Scottish lion becoming a kitten again, which must be cherished. We must cherish this Parliament. This is the start of a new sang.

The elections for the positions of Deputy Presiding Officer will take place in the chamber at

3:40 pm. Members who wish to make nominations for either or both positions of Deputy Presiding Officer should pick up nomination papers from the clerk in my office on the first floor of the Assembly Hall. Nomination papers must be signed by the nominee, the member nominating and the seconder. Completed papers must be handed to one of the clerks in my office not later than 15 minutes before the time I have set for the vote. In other words, there can be no nominating within 15 minutes of the vote. Members may nominate from

3:10 pm. Dr Ewing: I move, That the meeting of the Parliament be adjourned until 3:40 pm.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703419", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Presiding Officer", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26585, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 58.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 58.0, "ID": 26585, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 83.0, "ContributionID": 703419, "EditedText": "I thank members for the honour and the responsibility which I have been given. I undertake to set aside party affiliation and to be the servant of the whole Parliament. Last week, William McIlvanney, in a poem, talked about the Scottish lion becoming a kitten again, which must be cherished. We must cherish this Parliament. This is the start of a new sang. The elections for the positions of Deputy Presiding Officer will take place in the chamber at 3:40 pm. Members who wish to make nominations for either or both positions of Deputy Presiding Officer should pick up nomination papers from the clerk in my office on the first floor of the Assembly Hall. Nomination papers must be signed by the nominee, the member nominating and the seconder. Completed papers must be handed to one of the clerks in my office not later than 15 minutes before the time I have set for the vote. In other words, there can be no nominating within 15 minutes of the vote. Members may nominate from 3:10 pm. Dr Ewing: I move, That the meeting of the Parliament be adjourned until 3:40 pm.", "EditedTextHTML": "I thank members for the honour and the responsibility which I have been given. I undertake to set aside party affiliation and to be the servant of the whole Parliament.

Last week, William McIlvanney, in a poem, talked about the Scottish lion becoming a kitten again, which must be cherished. We must cherish this Parliament. This is the start of a new sang.

The elections for the positions of Deputy Presiding Officer will take place in the chamber at

3:40 pm. Members who wish to make nominations for either or both positions of Deputy Presiding Officer should pick up nomination papers from the clerk in my office on the first floor of the Assembly Hall. Nomination papers must be signed by the nominee, the member nominating and the seconder. Completed papers must be handed to one of the clerks in my office not later than 15 minutes before the time I have set for the vote. In other words, there can be no nominating within 15 minutes of the vote. Members may nominate from

3:10 pm. Dr Ewing: I move, That the meeting of the Parliament be adjourned until 3:40 pm.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703420", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Presiding Officer", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26585, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 58.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 58.0, "ID": 26585, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 85.0, "ContributionID": 703420, "EditedText": "Question agreed to.", "EditedTextHTML": "Question agreed to.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703424", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Deputy Presiding Officers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26586, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 89.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 89.0, "ID": 26586, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 92.0, "ContributionID": 703424, "EditedText": "Ms Patricia FergusonMr George ReidJohn Young", "EditedTextHTML": "Ms Patricia Ferguson
Mr George Reid
John Young

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703425", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Deputy Presiding Officers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26586, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 89.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 89.0, "ID": 26586, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 93.0, "ContributionID": 703425, "EditedText": "Will each of the candidates please stand to identify themselves?Ms Patricia Ferguson (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab) stood. Mr George Reid (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP) stood. John Young (West of Scotland) (Con) stood.", "EditedTextHTML": "Will each of the candidates please stand to identify themselves?

Ms Patricia Ferguson (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab) stood.

Mr George Reid (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP) stood.

John Young (West of Scotland) (Con) stood.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703426", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Deputy Presiding Officers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26586, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 89.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 89.0, "ID": 26586, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 95.0, "ContributionID": 703426, "EditedText": "The election will proceed in accordance with rule 11.9 of the standing orders. I do not need to read that out, as it describes the same procedure that we have just followed—members will not have forgotten it already. Candidates should each nominate a scrutineer to monitor the counting of the votes; they should notify the clerks at the back of the chamber of their scrutineer when they collect their ballot papers. At the end of the voting period, I shall announce the names of the scrutineers and invite them to the vote-counting table in the well of the chamber. Members voted by secret ballot.", "EditedTextHTML": "The election will proceed in accordance with rule 11.9 of the standing orders. I do not need to read that out, as it describes the same procedure that we have just followed—members will not have forgotten it already. Candidates should each nominate a scrutineer to monitor the counting of the votes; they should notify the clerks at the back of the chamber of their scrutineer when they collect their ballot papers. At the end of the voting period, I shall announce the names of the scrutineers and invite them to the vote-counting table in the well of the chamber.

Members voted by secret ballot.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703427", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Deputy Presiding Officers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26586, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 89.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 89.0, "ID": 26586, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 98.0, "ContributionID": 703427, "EditedText": "The voting time for this round is now closed. The following members should come to the well of the chamber to scrutinise the count of the ballot papers: Mr Jack McConnell for Ms Patricia Ferguson; Colin Campbell for Mr George Reid; and Miss Annabel Goldie for John Young.", "EditedTextHTML": "The voting time for this round is now closed. The following members should come to the well of the chamber to scrutinise the count of the ballot papers: Mr Jack McConnell for Ms Patricia Ferguson; Colin Campbell for Mr George Reid; and Miss Annabel Goldie for John Young.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P319C703430", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Deputy Presiding Officers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26586, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 89.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 89.0, "ID": 26586, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 104.0, "ContributionID": 703430, "EditedText": "Accordingly, as no candidate received a majority of the votes cast, and as John Young received the fewest votes, he is eliminated from the election and a second round will take place with Ms Patricia Ferguson and Mr George Reid as candidates. There will be a short delay while new ballot papers are printed. So that there are no further spoilt papers, I remind members that they should vote for one person only.", "EditedTextHTML": "Accordingly, as no candidate received a majority of the votes cast, and as John Young received the fewest votes, he is eliminated from the election and a second round will take place with Ms Patricia Ferguson and Mr George Reid as candidates. There will be a short delay while new ballot papers are printed. So that there are no further spoilt papers, I remind members that they should vote for one person only.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P319C703431", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Deputy Presiding Officers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26586, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 89.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 89.0, "ID": 26586, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 107.0, "ContributionID": 703431, "EditedText": "The voting period is now open. The voting procedure is as before.", "EditedTextHTML": "The voting period is now open. The voting procedure is as before.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703435", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Deputy Presiding Officers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26586, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 89.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 89.0, "ID": 26586, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 118.0, "ContributionID": 703435, "EditedText": "Ms Patricia Ferguson 66Mr George Reid 59Abstentions 2", "EditedTextHTML": "Ms Patricia Ferguson 66
Mr George Reid 59
Abstentions 2

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P319C703436", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Deputy Presiding Officers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26586, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 89.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 89.0, "ID": 26586, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 119.0, "ContributionID": 703436, "EditedText": "Accordingly, as Ms Patricia Ferguson received more votes than the total number of votes that were received by the other candidate, and as more than 25 per cent of the members voted, Ms Patricia Ferguson is elected as a Deputy Presiding Officer of the Scottish Parliament. Applause.The following members are candidates in the first round of voting in the election of the second Deputy Presiding Officer:", "EditedTextHTML": "Accordingly, as Ms Patricia Ferguson received more votes than the total number of votes that were received by the other candidate, and as more than 25 per cent of the members voted, Ms Patricia Ferguson is elected as a Deputy Presiding Officer of the Scottish Parliament. [Applause.]

The following members are candidates in the first round of voting in the election of the second Deputy Presiding Officer:

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P319C703438", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Deputy Presiding Officers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26586, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 89.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 89.0, "ID": 26586, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 122.0, "ContributionID": 703438, "EditedText": "There will now be a short pause while new ballot papers are printed, but I understand that that will be done almost instantly.", "EditedTextHTML": "There will now be a short pause while new ballot papers are printed, but I understand that that will be done almost instantly.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P319C703439", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Deputy Presiding Officers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26586, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 89.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 89.0, "ID": 26586, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 125.0, "ContributionID": 703439, "EditedText": "The voting period in the first round of voting in the election of the second Deputy Presiding Officer is now open.", "EditedTextHTML": "The voting period in the first round of voting in the election of the second Deputy Presiding Officer is now open.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P319C703440", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Deputy Presiding Officers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26586, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 89.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 89.0, "ID": 26586, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 128.0, "ContributionID": 703440, "EditedText": "In the first round of voting in the election of the second Deputy Presiding Officer, the number of votes cast for each candidate was as follows:", "EditedTextHTML": "In the first round of voting in the election of the second Deputy Presiding Officer, the number of votes cast for each candidate was as follows:

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703367", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Wednesday 12 May 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26583, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26583, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 2.0, "ContributionID": 703367, "EditedText": "THE TEMPORARY CLERK opened the meeting at 09:30", "EditedTextHTML": "[THE TEMPORARY CLERK opened the meeting at 09:30]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6078746+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703370", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Oaths and Affirmations", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26584, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26584, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 7.0, "ContributionID": 703370, "EditedText": "Dr Winnie Ewing (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)", "EditedTextHTML": "Dr Winnie Ewing (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6078746+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703373", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Oaths and Affirmations", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26584, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26584, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 11.0, "ContributionID": 703373, "EditedText": "Donald Dewar (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)", "EditedTextHTML": "Donald Dewar (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6078746+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703375", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Oaths and Affirmations", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26584, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26584, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 14.0, "ContributionID": 703375, "EditedText": "The following members took the oath:", "EditedTextHTML": "The following members took the oath:

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6078746+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C703377", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Oaths and Affirmations", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26584, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26584, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan (Falkirk West): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 16.0, "ContributionID": 703377, "EditedText": "I want to make it clear that I believe in the sovereignty of the people of Scotland rather than in the sovereignty of any monarch. My allegiance, therefore, is to the people of Scotland. However, in view of the legal requirement that must be met to enable me to represent my constituents, I shall make the affirmation.", "EditedTextHTML": "I want to make it clear that I believe in the sovereignty of the people of Scotland rather than in the sovereignty of any monarch. My allegiance, therefore, is to the people of Scotland. However, in view of the legal requirement that must be met to enable me to represent my constituents, I shall make the affirmation.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6078746+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703378", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Oaths and Affirmations", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26584, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26584, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 18.0, "ContributionID": 703378, "EditedText": "The following member made a solemn affirmation:", "EditedTextHTML": "The following member made a solemn affirmation:

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6078746+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703379", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Oaths and Affirmations", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26584, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26584, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 19.0, "ContributionID": 703379, "EditedText": "Dennis Canavan (Falkirk West)", "EditedTextHTML": "Dennis Canavan (Falkirk West)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6078746+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703382", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Oaths and Affirmations", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26584, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26584, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 23.0, "ContributionID": 703382, "EditedText": "Robin Harper (Lothians) (Green)", "EditedTextHTML": "Robin Harper (Lothians) (Green)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6078746+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703384", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Oaths and Affirmations", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26584, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26584, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 26.0, "ContributionID": 703384, "EditedText": "The following members made a solemn affirmation:", "EditedTextHTML": "The following members made a solemn affirmation:

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6078746+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703386", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Oaths and Affirmations", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26584, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26584, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 28.0, "ContributionID": 703386, "EditedText": "The following members took the oath:", "EditedTextHTML": "The following members took the oath:

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6078746+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703387", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Oaths and Affirmations", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26584, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26584, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 29.0, "ContributionID": 703387, "EditedText": "Bill Aitken (Glasgow) (Con)Ms Wendy Alexander (Paisley North) (Lab)Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab)", "EditedTextHTML": "Bill Aitken (Glasgow) (Con)

Ms Wendy Alexander (Paisley North) (Lab)

Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6078746+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703392", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Oaths and Affirmations", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26584, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26584, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 35.0, "ContributionID": 703392, "EditedText": "Colin Campbell (West of Scotland) (SNP)Ms Margaret Curran (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)Cathie Craigie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Ms Patricia Ferguson (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)Lord James Douglas-Hamilton (Lothians) (Con)Mr David Davidson (North-East Scotland) (Con)Alex Fergusson (South of Scotland) (Con)Karen Gillon (Clydesdale) (Lab)Helen Eadie (Dunfermline East) (Lab)Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con)Miss Annabel Goldie (West of Scotland) (Con)Fergus Ewing (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)Ross Finnie (West of Scotland) (LD)Donald Gorrie (Central Scotland) (LD)Rhoda Grant (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Iain Gray (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)Mr Duncan Hamilton (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)Mr Keith Harding (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Mr Sam Galbraith (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)Mr John Home Robertson (East Lothian) (Lab)Janis Hughes (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)Gordon Jackson (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)Fiona Hyslop (Lothians) (SNP)Dr Sylvia Jackson (Stirling) (Lab)Dr Richard Simpson (Ochil) (Lab)Adam Ingram (South of Scotland) (SNP)Alex Johnstone (North-East Scotland) (Con)", "EditedTextHTML": "Colin Campbell (West of Scotland) (SNP)

Ms Margaret Curran (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)

Cathie Craigie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)

Ms Patricia Ferguson (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)

Lord James Douglas-Hamilton (Lothians) (Con)

Mr David Davidson (North-East Scotland) (Con)

Alex Fergusson (South of Scotland) (Con)

Karen Gillon (Clydesdale) (Lab)

Helen Eadie (Dunfermline East) (Lab)

Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con)

Miss Annabel Goldie (West of Scotland) (Con)

Fergus Ewing (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)

Ross Finnie (West of Scotland) (LD)

Donald Gorrie (Central Scotland) (LD)

Rhoda Grant (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)

Iain Gray (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)

Mr Duncan Hamilton (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)

Mr Keith Harding (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)

Mr Sam Galbraith (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)

Mr John Home Robertson (East Lothian) (Lab)

Janis Hughes (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)

Gordon Jackson (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)

Fiona Hyslop (Lothians) (SNP)

Dr Sylvia Jackson (Stirling) (Lab)

Dr Richard Simpson (Ochil) (Lab)

Adam Ingram (South of Scotland) (SNP)

Alex Johnstone (North-East Scotland) (Con)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6078746+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703393", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Oaths and Affirmations", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26584, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26584, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 36.0, "ContributionID": 703393, "EditedText": "The following members made a solemn affirmation:", "EditedTextHTML": "The following members made a solemn affirmation:

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6078746+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703398", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Oaths and Affirmations", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26584, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26584, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 43.0, "ContributionID": 703398, "EditedText": "The following members made a solemn affirmation:", "EditedTextHTML": "The following members made a solemn affirmation:

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6078746+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703403", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Oaths and Affirmations", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26584, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26584, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 52.0, "ContributionID": 703403, "EditedText": "Nicola Sturgeon (Glasgow) (SNP)Iain Smith (North-East Fife) (LD)Kay Ullrich (West of Scotland) (SNP)Mike Watson (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)", "EditedTextHTML": "Nicola Sturgeon (Glasgow) (SNP)

Iain Smith (North-East Fife) (LD)

Kay Ullrich (West of Scotland) (SNP)

Mike Watson (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703404", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Oaths and Affirmations", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26584, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26584, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 53.0, "ContributionID": 703404, "EditedText": "The following members took the oath:", "EditedTextHTML": "The following members took the oath:

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1878E208P502C703409", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Presiding Officer", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26585, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 58.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 58.0, "ID": 26585, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Dr Winnie", "ID": 1878, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Winnie Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 63.0, "ContributionID": 703409, "EditedText": "Will each of the candidates, in order, please stand up to identify themselves.Mr George Reid (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP) stood. Sir David Steel (Lothians) (LD) stood.", "EditedTextHTML": "Will each of the candidates, in order, please stand up to identify themselves.

Mr George Reid (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP) stood.

Sir David Steel (Lothians) (LD) stood.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1878E208P502C703410", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Presiding Officer", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26585, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 58.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 58.0, "ID": 26585, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Dr Winnie", "ID": 1878, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Winnie Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 65.0, "ContributionID": 703410, "EditedText": "The election shall proceed in accordance with rule 11.9 of the standing orders of the Parliament. Members should wait in their seats until a clerk indicates to them that they should collect their ballot paper from the back of the chamber. Two tables have been set up for this purpose. The table on my left-hand side should be used by members with surnames beginning with the letters A to M—but not Mc or Mac—while the table on my right-hand side should be used by members whose surnames begin with Mc, Mac or the letters N to Z. Members should give their names to the clerk, who will hand them a ballot paper. Members should then proceed to one of the four voting booths, where they should vote by marking an X on the ballot paper. Members should then put the folded ballot paper in the ballot box, which is situated in the well of the chamber, before returning to their seats. Each candidate can nominate one scrutineer to monitor the counting of votes. Will candidates ensure that the name of their scrutineer is notified to the clerks at the tables at the back of the chamber at the time that they collect their ballot paper. I shall announce the names of the scrutineers and invite them to the vote counting table in the well of the chamber at the end of the voting period. The clerks have assured me that this vote is absolutely untraceable and the votes will be counted openly on the table in front of me.", "EditedTextHTML": "The election shall proceed in accordance with rule 11.9 of the standing orders of the Parliament. Members should wait in their seats until a clerk indicates to them that they should collect their ballot paper from the back of the chamber. Two tables have been set up for this purpose. The table on my left-hand side should be used by members with surnames beginning with the letters A to M—but not Mc or Mac—while the table on my right-hand side should be used by members whose surnames begin with Mc, Mac or the letters N to Z. Members should give their names to the clerk, who will hand them a ballot paper. Members should then proceed to one of the four voting booths, where they should vote by marking an X on the ballot paper. Members should then put the folded ballot paper in the ballot box, which is situated in the well of the chamber, before returning to their seats.

Each candidate can nominate one scrutineer to monitor the counting of votes. Will candidates ensure that the name of their scrutineer is notified to the clerks at the tables at the back of the chamber at the time that they collect their ballot paper. I shall announce the names of the scrutineers and invite them to the vote counting table in the well of the chamber at the end of the voting period.

The clerks have assured me that this vote is absolutely untraceable and the votes will be counted openly on the table in front of me.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1878E208P502C703414", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Presiding Officer", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26585, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 58.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 58.0, "ID": 26585, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Dr Winnie", "ID": 1878, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Winnie Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 75.0, "ContributionID": 703414, "EditedText": "The voting in this round is now closed. Please will the following members come to the well of the chamber to scrutinise the counting of the ballot papers: Mr Colin Campbell for Mr George Reid, and Margaret Smith for Sir David Steel. In the election for the position of Presiding Officer, the total number of votes that were cast for each candidate was:", "EditedTextHTML": "The voting in this round is now closed.

Please will the following members come to the well of the chamber to scrutinise the counting of the ballot papers: Mr Colin Campbell for Mr George Reid, and Margaret Smith for Sir David Steel.

In the election for the position of Presiding Officer, the total number of votes that were cast for each candidate was:

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703416", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Presiding Officer", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26585, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 58.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 58.0, "ID": 26585, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 78.0, "ContributionID": 703416, "EditedText": "Applause.", "EditedTextHTML": "[Applause.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2005E187P488C703418", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Presiding Officer", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26585, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 58.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 58.0, "ID": 26585, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Reid, Mr George", "ID": 2005, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Mid Scotland and Fife" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Deputy Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "George Reid", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr George Reid (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 81.0, "ContributionID": 703418, "EditedText": "I congratulate Sir David. I have known him personally for 44 years. I am pleased by the appointment and I am sure that Sir David will ensure that the Parliament is open, accessible, accountable, strong on equal opportunities and works in partnership with civic Scotland.", "EditedTextHTML": "I congratulate Sir David. I have known him personally for 44 years. I am pleased by the appointment and I am sure that Sir David will ensure that the Parliament is open, accessible, accountable, strong on equal opportunities and works in partnership with civic Scotland.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703421", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Presiding Officer", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26585, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 58.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 58.0, "ID": 26585, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 86.0, "ContributionID": 703421, "EditedText": "Meeting adjourned at 15:00.", "EditedTextHTML": "Meeting adjourned at 15:00.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P319C703423", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Deputy Presiding Officers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26586, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 89.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 89.0, "ID": 26586, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 90.0, "ContributionID": 703423, "EditedText": "This time, members should remember to insert their cards in the machines, not only if they want to speak, but if they want to vote. The voting period for the election of the Deputy Presiding Officers is now open. The following valid nominations have been received:", "EditedTextHTML": "This time, members should remember to insert their cards in the machines, not only if they want to speak, but if they want to vote. The voting period for the election of the Deputy Presiding Officers is now open. The following valid nominations have been received:

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703423", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Deputy Presiding Officers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26586, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 89.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 89.0, "ID": 26586, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 90.0, "ContributionID": 703423, "EditedText": "This time, members should remember to insert their cards in the machines, not only if they want to speak, but if they want to vote. The voting period for the election of the Deputy Presiding Officers is now open. The following valid nominations have been received:", "EditedTextHTML": "This time, members should remember to insert their cards in the machines, not only if they want to speak, but if they want to vote. The voting period for the election of the Deputy Presiding Officers is now open. The following valid nominations have been received:

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P319C703425", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Deputy Presiding Officers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26586, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 89.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 89.0, "ID": 26586, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 93.0, "ContributionID": 703425, "EditedText": "Will each of the candidates please stand to identify themselves?Ms Patricia Ferguson (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab) stood. Mr George Reid (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP) stood. John Young (West of Scotland) (Con) stood.", "EditedTextHTML": "Will each of the candidates please stand to identify themselves?

Ms Patricia Ferguson (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab) stood.

Mr George Reid (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP) stood.

John Young (West of Scotland) (Con) stood.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P319C703426", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Deputy Presiding Officers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26586, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 89.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 89.0, "ID": 26586, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 95.0, "ContributionID": 703426, "EditedText": "The election will proceed in accordance with rule 11.9 of the standing orders. I do not need to read that out, as it describes the same procedure that we have just followed—members will not have forgotten it already. Candidates should each nominate a scrutineer to monitor the counting of the votes; they should notify the clerks at the back of the chamber of their scrutineer when they collect their ballot papers. At the end of the voting period, I shall announce the names of the scrutineers and invite them to the vote-counting table in the well of the chamber. Members voted by secret ballot.", "EditedTextHTML": "The election will proceed in accordance with rule 11.9 of the standing orders. I do not need to read that out, as it describes the same procedure that we have just followed—members will not have forgotten it already. Candidates should each nominate a scrutineer to monitor the counting of the votes; they should notify the clerks at the back of the chamber of their scrutineer when they collect their ballot papers. At the end of the voting period, I shall announce the names of the scrutineers and invite them to the vote-counting table in the well of the chamber.

Members voted by secret ballot.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P319C703427", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Deputy Presiding Officers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26586, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 89.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 89.0, "ID": 26586, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 98.0, "ContributionID": 703427, "EditedText": "The voting time for this round is now closed. The following members should come to the well of the chamber to scrutinise the count of the ballot papers: Mr Jack McConnell for Ms Patricia Ferguson; Colin Campbell for Mr George Reid; and Miss Annabel Goldie for John Young.", "EditedTextHTML": "The voting time for this round is now closed. The following members should come to the well of the chamber to scrutinise the count of the ballot papers: Mr Jack McConnell for Ms Patricia Ferguson; Colin Campbell for Mr George Reid; and Miss Annabel Goldie for John Young.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703429", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Deputy Presiding Officers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26586, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 89.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 89.0, "ID": 26586, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 103.0, "ContributionID": 703429, "EditedText": "Ms Patricia Ferguson 54Mr George Reid 54John Young 17Abstentions 1Spoilt papers 2", "EditedTextHTML": "Ms Patricia Ferguson 54
Mr George Reid 54
John Young 17
Abstentions 1
Spoilt papers 2

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703431", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Deputy Presiding Officers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26586, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 89.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 89.0, "ID": 26586, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 107.0, "ContributionID": 703431, "EditedText": "The voting period is now open. The voting procedure is as before.", "EditedTextHTML": "The voting period is now open. The voting procedure is as before.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P319C703433", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Deputy Presiding Officers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26586, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 89.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 89.0, "ID": 26586, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 113.0, "ContributionID": 703433, "EditedText": "The voting time for this round is now closed. The two candidates and their scrutineers should now come to the well.", "EditedTextHTML": "The voting time for this round is now closed. The two candidates and their scrutineers should now come to the well.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703433", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Deputy Presiding Officers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26586, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 89.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 89.0, "ID": 26586, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 113.0, "ContributionID": 703433, "EditedText": "The voting time for this round is now closed. The two candidates and their scrutineers should now come to the well.", "EditedTextHTML": "The voting time for this round is now closed. The two candidates and their scrutineers should now come to the well.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P319C703434", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Deputy Presiding Officers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26586, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 89.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 89.0, "ID": 26586, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 116.0, "ContributionID": 703434, "EditedText": "In the second round of voting in the election of the first Deputy Presiding Officer, the number of votes cast for each candidate was as follows:", "EditedTextHTML": "In the second round of voting in the election of the first Deputy Presiding Officer, the number of votes cast for each candidate was as follows:

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703438", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Deputy Presiding Officers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26586, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 89.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 89.0, "ID": 26586, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 122.0, "ContributionID": 703438, "EditedText": "There will now be a short pause while new ballot papers are printed, but I understand that that will be done almost instantly.", "EditedTextHTML": "There will now be a short pause while new ballot papers are printed, but I understand that that will be done almost instantly.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703439", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Deputy Presiding Officers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26586, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 89.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 89.0, "ID": 26586, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 125.0, "ContributionID": 703439, "EditedText": "The voting period in the first round of voting in the election of the second Deputy Presiding Officer is now open.", "EditedTextHTML": "The voting period in the first round of voting in the election of the second Deputy Presiding Officer is now open.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P319C703442", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Deputy Presiding Officers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26586, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 89.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 89.0, "ID": 26586, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 131.0, "ContributionID": 703442, "EditedText": "Accordingly, as Mr George Reid received majority support from those members who voted, and as more than 25 per cent of members voted, Mr George Reid is elected as a Deputy Presiding Officer of the Scottish Parliament. Applause.The business for today is now concluded. However, before I close this meeting, I remind members that we will meet tomorrow at 2.30 pm to select the Parliament's nominee for appointment as First Minister. I also remind members that nominations for this post need to be submitted to the clerk no later than 30 minutes before the voting period begins. From 9.30 am onwards, nomination forms will be available from the chamber office in the Parliamentary Headquarters at George IV Bridge, where nominations may be lodged with the clerk. Finally, as members will be aware, at the close of today's business an official photograph will be taken of all members who have taken the oath or who have made the affirmation. Members should remain in their seats while the photograph is taken. I now close this meeting. Applause.", "EditedTextHTML": "Accordingly, as Mr George Reid received majority support from those members who voted, and as more than 25 per cent of members voted, Mr George Reid is elected as a Deputy Presiding Officer of the Scottish Parliament. [Applause.]

The business for today is now concluded. However, before I close this meeting, I remind members that we will meet tomorrow at 2.30 pm to select the Parliament's nominee for appointment as First Minister. I also remind members that nominations for this post need to be submitted to the clerk no later than 30 minutes before the voting period begins. From 9.30 am onwards, nomination forms will be available from the chamber office in the Parliamentary Headquarters at George IV Bridge, where nominations may be lodged with the clerk.

Finally, as members will be aware, at the close of today's business an official photograph will be taken of all members who have taken the oath or who have made the affirmation. Members should remain in their seats while the photograph is taken.

I now close this meeting. [Applause.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703368", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Scottish Parliament
Wednesday 12 May 1999", "HeadingType": "Leader", "HeadingID": 26583, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 1.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 1.0, "ID": 26583, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "The Temporary Clerk (Paul Grice) ", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Temporary Clerk (Paul Grice): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 3.0, "ContributionID": 703368, "EditedText": "Welcome to this, the first meeting of the Scottish Parliament established under the Scotland Act 1998. We are gathered on this day and at this time and place, in accordance with The Scottish Parliament (First Ordinary General Election and First Meeting) Order 1999. As provided by the standing orders, my role is to preside over the proceedings to enable the oldest qualified member to take the oath or make a solemn affirmation.", "EditedTextHTML": "Welcome to this, the first meeting of the Scottish Parliament established under the Scotland Act 1998. We are gathered on this day and at this time and place, in accordance with The Scottish Parliament (First Ordinary General Election and First Meeting) Order 1999. As provided by the standing orders, my role is to preside over the proceedings to enable the oldest qualified member to take the oath or make a solemn affirmation.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6078746+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703369", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Oaths and Affirmations", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26584, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26584, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 6.0, "ContributionID": 703369, "EditedText": "The following member made a solemn affirmation:", "EditedTextHTML": "The following member made a solemn affirmation:

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6078746+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1878E208P502C703371", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Oaths and Affirmations", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26584, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26584, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Dr Winnie", "ID": 1878, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Winnie Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Winnie Ewing (Oldest Qualified Member): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 8.0, "ContributionID": 703371, "EditedText": "Oath taking by members will take place from 9.30 am and the election for the position of Presiding Officer will take place at 2.30 pm, with the two elections for the positions of Deputy Presiding Officer occurring thereafter. An official photograph of all members will be taken in the chamber afterwards.", "EditedTextHTML": "Oath taking by members will take place from 9.30 am and the election for the position of Presiding Officer will take place at 2.30 pm, with the two elections for the positions of Deputy Presiding Officer occurring thereafter. An official photograph of all members will be taken in the chamber afterwards.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6078746+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703372", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Oaths and Affirmations", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26584, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26584, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 10.0, "ContributionID": 703372, "EditedText": "The following member took the oath:", "EditedTextHTML": "The following member took the oath:

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6078746+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1895E281P429C703374", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Oaths and Affirmations", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26584, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26584, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Salmond, Alex", "ID": 1895, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Banff and Buchan" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Alex Salmond", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Mr Alex Salmond (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 12.0, "ContributionID": 703374, "EditedText": "The Scottish National party parliamentary group's primary loyalty lies with the people of Scotland, in line with the Scottish constitutional tradition of the sovereignty of the people. I know that all members of this Parliament will share that view.", "EditedTextHTML": "The Scottish National party parliamentary group's primary loyalty lies with the people of Scotland, in line with the Scottish constitutional tradition of the sovereignty of the people. I know that all members of this Parliament will share that view.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6078746+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2188E70P92C703380", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Oaths and Affirmations", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26584, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26584, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Harper, Robin", "ID": 2188, "PartyName": "Scottish Green Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "Green", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Robin Harper", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Robin Harper (Lothians) (Green): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 20.0, "ContributionID": 703380, "EditedText": "The Green party would have preferred to add the following words to the affirmation: \"and faithfully serve the people of Scotland.\"", "EditedTextHTML": "The Green party would have preferred to add the following words to the affirmation:

\"and faithfully serve the people of Scotland.\"

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6078746+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703381", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Oaths and Affirmations", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26584, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26584, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 22.0, "ContributionID": 703381, "EditedText": "The following member made a solemn affirmation:", "EditedTextHTML": "The following member made a solemn affirmation:

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6078746+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703391", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Oaths and Affirmations", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26584, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26584, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 34.0, "ContributionID": 703391, "EditedText": "The following members took the oath:", "EditedTextHTML": "The following members took the oath:

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6078746+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1878E208P502C703395", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Oaths and Affirmations", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26584, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26584, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Dr Winnie", "ID": 1878, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Winnie Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 39.0, "ContributionID": 703395, "EditedText": "We will now take a short break. 10.38 Dr Ewing: We will now resume. I should let everyone know that I intend to make a short speech at 2.30 pm. Interruption. I am advised that I should not do that. In order to assist the clerks, it would be far better if I made my speech at the end of the morning. I am very anxious to keep in with the clerks.", "EditedTextHTML": "We will now take a short break. 10.38 Dr Ewing: We will now resume. I should let everyone know that I intend to make a short speech at 2.30 pm. [Interruption.]

I am advised that I should not do that. In order to assist the clerks, it would be far better if I made my speech at the end of the morning. I am very anxious to keep in with the clerks.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6078746+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703396", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Oaths and Affirmations", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26584, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26584, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 41.0, "ContributionID": 703396, "EditedText": "The following members took the oath:", "EditedTextHTML": "The following members took the oath:

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6078746+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703397", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Oaths and Affirmations", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26584, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26584, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 42.0, "ContributionID": 703397, "EditedText": "Marilyn Livingstone (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)Margaret Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)Lewis Macdonald (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)Ian Jenkins (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)Mr Nick Johnston (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Dorothy-Grace Elder (Glasgow) (SNP)Irene McGugan (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Maureen Macmillan (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Paul Martin (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)Mrs Lyndsay McIntosh (Central Scotland) (Con)Mr Duncan McNeil (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)Ms Margo MacDonald (Lothians) (SNP)Angus Mackay (Edinburgh South) (Lab)Pauline McNeill (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)Mr Frank McAveety (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)Michael Matheson (Central Scotland) (SNP)Mr Tom McCabe (Hamilton South) (Lab)Mr John Munro (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)Mr Jamie McGrigor (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Alex Neil (Central Scotland) (SNP)Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con)Ms Irene Oldfather (Cunninghame South) (Lab)Bristow Muldoon (Livingston) (Lab)Mr George Reid (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Mrs Mary Mulligan (Linlithgow) (Lab)David Mundell (South of Scotland) (Con)Mr Alasdair Morrison (Western Isles) (Lab)Euan Robson (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)Mr Lloyd Quinan (West of Scotland) (SNP)Mr Andy Kerr (East Kilbride) (Lab)Mr Brian Monteith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)Peter Peacock (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)Mr Keith Raffan (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)", "EditedTextHTML": "Marilyn Livingstone (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)

Margaret Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)

Lewis Macdonald (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)

Ian Jenkins (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)

Mr Nick Johnston (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)

Dorothy-Grace Elder (Glasgow) (SNP)

Irene McGugan (North-East Scotland) (SNP)

Maureen Macmillan (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)

Paul Martin (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)

Mrs Lyndsay McIntosh (Central Scotland) (Con)

Mr Duncan McNeil (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)

Ms Margo MacDonald (Lothians) (SNP)

Angus Mackay (Edinburgh South) (Lab)

Pauline McNeill (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)

Mr Frank McAveety (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)

Michael Matheson (Central Scotland) (SNP)

Mr Tom McCabe (Hamilton South) (Lab)

Mr John Munro (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)

Mr Jamie McGrigor (Highlands and Islands) (Con)

Alex Neil (Central Scotland) (SNP)

Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con)

Ms Irene Oldfather (Cunninghame South) (Lab)

Bristow Muldoon (Livingston) (Lab)

Mr George Reid (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)

Mrs Mary Mulligan (Linlithgow) (Lab)

David Mundell (South of Scotland) (Con)

Mr Alasdair Morrison (Western Isles) (Lab)

Euan Robson (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)

Mr Lloyd Quinan (West of Scotland) (SNP)

Mr Andy Kerr (East Kilbride) (Lab)

Mr Brian Monteith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)

Peter Peacock (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)

Mr Keith Raffan (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6078746+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703399", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Oaths and Affirmations", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26584, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26584, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 44.0, "ContributionID": 703399, "EditedText": "Richard Lochhead (North-East Scotland) (SNP)George Lyon (Argyll and Bute) (LD)Kate MacLean (Dundee West) (Lab)Johann Lamont (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)Tricia Marwick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)Mr Michael McMahon (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)Elaine Thomson (Aberdeen North) (Lab)Mr Kenny MacAskill (Lothians) (SNP)Dr Elaine Murray (Dumfries) (Lab)Fiona McLeod (West of Scotland) (SNP)Mr John McAllion (Dundee East) (Lab)Mr Jack McConnell (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)Henry McLeish (Central Fife) (Lab)Alasdair Morgan (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)Mr Kenneth Macintosh (Eastwood) (Lab)Ian Welsh (Ayr) (Lab)Shona Robison (North-East Scotland) (SNP)Nora Radcliffe (Gordon) (LD)Des McNulty (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)Mr Andrew Welsh (Angus) (SNP)Cathy Peattie (Falkirk East) (Lab)", "EditedTextHTML": "Richard Lochhead (North-East Scotland) (SNP)

George Lyon (Argyll and Bute) (LD)

Kate MacLean (Dundee West) (Lab)

Johann Lamont (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)

Tricia Marwick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)

Mr Michael McMahon (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)

Elaine Thomson (Aberdeen North) (Lab)

Mr Kenny MacAskill (Lothians) (SNP)

Dr Elaine Murray (Dumfries) (Lab)

Fiona McLeod (West of Scotland) (SNP)

Mr John McAllion (Dundee East) (Lab)

Mr Jack McConnell (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)

Henry McLeish (Central Fife) (Lab)

Alasdair Morgan (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)

Mr Kenneth Macintosh (Eastwood) (Lab)

Ian Welsh (Ayr) (Lab)

Shona Robison (North-East Scotland) (SNP)

Nora Radcliffe (Gordon) (LD)

Des McNulty (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)

Mr Andrew Welsh (Angus) (SNP)

Cathy Peattie (Falkirk East) (Lab)

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6078746+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1878E208P502C703401", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Oaths and Affirmations", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26584, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26584, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Dr Winnie", "ID": 1878, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Winnie Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 49.0, "ContributionID": 703401, "EditedText": "We shall now resume. When this part of the proceedings is over— which I think will be early—and before we break for lunch, I will say a few words. It will not take many minutes, so do not be alarmed.", "EditedTextHTML": "We shall now resume. When this part of the proceedings is over— which I think will be early—and before we break for lunch, I will say a few words. It will not take many minutes, so do not be alarmed.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703402", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Oaths and Affirmations", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26584, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26584, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 51.0, "ContributionID": 703402, "EditedText": "The following members made a solemn affirmation:", "EditedTextHTML": "The following members made a solemn affirmation:

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1878E208P502C703406", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Oaths and Affirmations", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26584, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 5.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 5.0, "ID": 26584, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Dr Winnie", "ID": 1878, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Winnie Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 56.0, "ContributionID": 703406, "EditedText": "We are indebted to the clerks, who have been masters of efficiency throughout this long and difficult day. Applause. I have the opportunity to make a short speech and I want to begin with the words that I have always wanted either to say or to hear someone else say: the Scottish Parliament, which adjourned on 25 March 1707, is hereby reconvened. Applause. I could not say those words until all members had been sworn and the Parliament really had been convened. This is an historic day and, after a long time in politics, I am aware that we owe a debt to many who are not here, who did not live to see the promised land. I would like to mention a few people from across the parties: Arthur Donaldson, Robert McIntyre, Alick Buchanan-Smith, Johnny Bannerman, Emrys Hughes, John Mackintosh and John Smith—today is the fifth anniversary of his death. I would also like to mention my colleague Allan Macartney, who so nearly lived to see the day. There are many others, but I have been able to mention only the people who have been my friends. Many people are named in the history books; many are not, but all of them have made this moment in history possible. I give my thanks to every one of them. As everyone knows, I have been a member of two Parliaments. I spent eight years in the House of Commons and I have spent 23 years in the European Parliament—which does not sound so long if it is said quickly. Until July, I will be the mother of the European Parliament. I hasten to add that I am not the oldest member of that Parliament, although I am the oldest one here, which is very disconcerting—I think they must have made a mistake on my birth certificate. I have several practical and sincere hopes for the Parliament. The first is that we try to follow the more consensual style of the European Parliament and say goodbye to the badgering and backbiting that one associates with Westminster. Secondly, in the House of Commons, I found that there was a Speaker's tradition of being fair to minorities. I am an expert in being a minority—I was alone in the House of Commons for three years and alone in the European Parliament for 19 years—but we are all minorities now, and I hope that the Presiding Officer, whoever that may be, will be fair to each and every one of us. My next hope is that this Parliament, by its mere existence, will create better relations with England, Wales and Northern Ireland, and I believe that to be in the hearts of the peoples of all of those countries. My last practical hope is that everyone who was born in Scotland, some of whom, like me, could not help it, and everyone who chose Scotland as their country, will live in harmony together, enjoying our cultures but remaining loyal to their own. In Europe and in the wider world, there is a bank of good will towards Scotland. I was privileged to visit 28 third-world countries as a member of my third world committee. I met many heads of state of struggling countries with problems who asked what was taking the Scots so long. I know that there will be a great deal of good will from all those countries. I have served on the Lomé assembly, which is made up of the European Parliament plus half of the world. One of our proudest moments was when Lomé came to Inverness and we agreed the declaration of Inverness, which became part of international law. In that declaration, we swept away the last vestiges of apartheid. Thus, we played a constructive role on the international stage, earning the admiration of everyone who attended the assembly, from Africa, the Caribbean and the Pacific. On behalf of my party, I pledge to make this Parliament work. All of us here can make it work— and make it a showpiece of modern democracy. It is no secret that, to members of the Scottish National party, this Parliament is not quite the fulfilment of our dream, but it is a Parliament we can build a dream on. Our dream is for Scotland to be as sovereign as Denmark, Finland or Austria— no more, no less. However, we know that that dream can come true only when there is total consensus among the people of Scotland, and we accept that. I will end by quoting from the debate of 1707. I have chosen a passage by Lord Belhaven, who was an opponent of the treaty: \"Show me a spurious patriot, a bombastic fire-eater, and I will show you a rascal. Show me a man who loves all countries equally with his own and I will show you a man entirely deficient of a sense of proportion. But show me a man who respects the rights of all nations while ready to defend the rights of his own against them all and I will show you a man who is both a nationalist and an internationalist.\" It was said that 1707 was the end of an auld sang. All of us here can begin to write together a new Scottish song, and I urge all of you to sing it in harmony—fortissimo. Applause. We shall now break for lunch, which is welcome news. As all members have been sworn, we will resume at 2.30 pm, when the voting period for the election of the Presiding Officer will commence. The nomination period for Presiding Officer runs from 12.30 pm to 2.15 pm.", "EditedTextHTML": "We are indebted to the clerks, who have been masters of efficiency throughout this long and difficult day. [Applause.]

I have the opportunity to make a short speech and I want to begin with the words that I have always wanted either to say or to hear someone else say: the Scottish Parliament, which adjourned on 25 March 1707, is hereby reconvened. [Applause.]

I could not say those words until all members had been sworn and the Parliament really had been convened.

This is an historic day and, after a long time in politics, I am aware that we owe a debt to many who are not here, who did not live to see the promised land. I would like to mention a few people from across the parties: Arthur Donaldson, Robert McIntyre, Alick Buchanan-Smith, Johnny Bannerman, Emrys Hughes, John Mackintosh and John Smith—today is the fifth anniversary of his death. I would also like to mention my colleague Allan Macartney, who so nearly lived to see the day. There are many others, but I have been able to mention only the people who have been my friends. Many people are named in the history books; many are not, but all of them have made this moment in history possible. I give my thanks to every one of them.

As everyone knows, I have been a member of two Parliaments. I spent eight years in the House of Commons and I have spent 23 years in the European Parliament—which does not sound so long if it is said quickly. Until July, I will be the mother of the European Parliament. I hasten to add that I am not the oldest member of that Parliament, although I am the oldest one here, which is very disconcerting—I think they must have made a mistake on my birth certificate.

I have several practical and sincere hopes for the Parliament. The first is that we try to follow the more consensual style of the European Parliament and say goodbye to the badgering and backbiting that one associates with Westminster.

Secondly, in the House of Commons, I found that there was a Speaker's tradition of being fair to minorities. I am an expert in being a minority—I was alone in the House of Commons for three years and alone in the European Parliament for 19 years—but we are all minorities now, and I hope that the Presiding Officer, whoever that may be, will be fair to each and every one of us.

My next hope is that this Parliament, by its mere existence, will create better relations with England, Wales and Northern Ireland, and I believe that to be in the hearts of the peoples of all of those countries.

My last practical hope is that everyone who was born in Scotland, some of whom, like me, could not help it, and everyone who chose Scotland as their country, will live in harmony together, enjoying our cultures but remaining loyal to their own.

In Europe and in the wider world, there is a bank of good will towards Scotland. I was privileged to visit 28 third-world countries as a member of my third world committee. I met many heads of state of struggling countries with problems who asked what was taking the Scots so long. I know that there will be a great deal of good will from all those countries.

I have served on the Lomé assembly, which is made up of the European Parliament plus half of the world. One of our proudest moments was when Lomé came to Inverness and we agreed the declaration of Inverness, which became part of international law. In that declaration, we swept away the last vestiges of apartheid. Thus, we played a constructive role on the international stage, earning the admiration of everyone who attended the assembly, from Africa, the Caribbean and the Pacific.

On behalf of my party, I pledge to make this Parliament work. All of us here can make it work— and make it a showpiece of modern democracy. It is no secret that, to members of the Scottish National party, this Parliament is not quite the fulfilment of our dream, but it is a Parliament we can build a dream on. Our dream is for Scotland to be as sovereign as Denmark, Finland or Austria— no more, no less. However, we know that that dream can come true only when there is total consensus among the people of Scotland, and we accept that.

I will end by quoting from the debate of 1707. I have chosen a passage by Lord Belhaven, who was an opponent of the treaty:

\"Show me a spurious patriot, a bombastic fire-eater, and I will show you a rascal. Show me a man who loves all countries equally with his own and I will show you a man entirely deficient of a sense of proportion. But show me a man who respects the rights of all nations while ready to defend the rights of his own against them all and I will show you a man who is both a nationalist and an internationalist.\"

It was said that 1707 was the end of an auld sang. All of us here can begin to write together a new Scottish song, and I urge all of you to sing it in harmony—fortissimo. [Applause.]

We shall now break for lunch, which is welcome news. As all members have been sworn, we will resume at 2.30 pm, when the voting period for the election of the Presiding Officer will commence. The nomination period for Presiding Officer runs from 12.30 pm to 2.15 pm.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1878E208P502C703407", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Presiding Officer", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26585, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 58.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 58.0, "ID": 26585, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Dr Winnie", "ID": 1878, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Winnie Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Winnie Ewing (Oldest Qualified Member): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 60.0, "ContributionID": 703407, "EditedText": "The voting period for the election of the Presiding Officer is now open. The following valid nominations for the position of Presiding Officer have been received:", "EditedTextHTML": "The voting period for the election of the Presiding Officer is now open. The following valid nominations for the position of Presiding Officer have been received:

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703408", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Presiding Officer", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26585, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 58.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 58.0, "ID": 26585, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 62.0, "ContributionID": 703408, "EditedText": "Mr George ReidSir David Steel", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr George Reid
Sir David Steel

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1968E300P550C703411", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Presiding Officer", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26585, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 58.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 58.0, "ID": 26585, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Canavan, Dennis", "ID": 1968, "PartyName": "Member for Falkirk West", "PartyAbbreviation": "*", "ConstituencyRegion": "Falkirk West" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Dennis Canavan", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dennis Canavan (Falkirk West): ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 67.0, "ContributionID": 703411, "EditedText": "On a point of order, Dr Ewing. Will you give us guidance on whether we can have an open, recorded vote rather than a secret ballot? We have waited for our first Scottish Parliament for nearly 300 years— indeed, this is our first ever democratically elected Scottish Parliament—and the Parliament was supposed to herald a new era of open democracy, but our first vote is to be a secret one. That seems rather strange. Surely we should behave like an open democracy, rather than a secret society. I realise that we are operating under draft standing orders, which were handed to us by a statutory instrument of the House of Commons. As I understand it, there was little, if any, debate on that statutory instrument in the House of Commons. I have been critical of the way in which things are done there, but even in the House of Commons there is an open, recorded vote on every occasion, including the election of the Speaker. Would you be prepared to accept, from me, a motion that we have an open recorded vote rather than a secret ballot on this important, historic, first vote of our first ever democratically elected Scottish Parliament?", "EditedTextHTML": "On a point of order, Dr Ewing. Will you give us guidance on whether we can have an open, recorded vote rather than a secret ballot? We have waited for our first Scottish Parliament for nearly 300 years— indeed, this is our first ever democratically elected Scottish Parliament—and the Parliament was supposed to herald a new era of open democracy, but our first vote is to be a secret one. That seems rather strange. Surely we should behave like an open democracy, rather than a secret society.

I realise that we are operating under draft standing orders, which were handed to us by a statutory instrument of the House of Commons. As I understand it, there was little, if any, debate on that statutory instrument in the House of Commons. I have been critical of the way in which things are done there, but even in the House of Commons there is an open, recorded vote on every occasion, including the election of the Speaker. Would you be prepared to accept, from me, a motion that we have an open recorded vote rather than a secret ballot on this important, historic, first vote of our first ever democratically elected Scottish Parliament?

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1878E208P502C703412", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Presiding Officer", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26585, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 58.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 58.0, "ID": 26585, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Dr Winnie", "ID": 1878, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Winnie Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 69.0, "ContributionID": 703412, "EditedText": "My heart is with you, but the standing orders are against you. At the moment, I will obey the standing orders. If there is any other person who wants to say that we should not obey the standing orders, perhaps they should enter the discussion now. There is no one else so, Dennis, while my heart is with you, the standing orders have to settle the matter for now. Perhaps in future we can reform ourselves. Members voted by secret ballot.", "EditedTextHTML": "My heart is with you, but the standing orders are against you. At the moment, I will obey the standing orders. If there is any other person who wants to say that we should not obey the standing orders, perhaps they should enter the discussion now.

There is no one else so, Dennis, while my heart is with you, the standing orders have to settle the matter for now. Perhaps in future we can reform ourselves.

Members voted by secret ballot.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703415", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Presiding Officer", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26585, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 58.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 58.0, "ID": 26585, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 77.0, "ContributionID": 703415, "EditedText": "Mr George Reid 44Sir David Steel 82Abstentions 3", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr George Reid 44
Sir David Steel 82
Abstentions 3

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" }, { "ID": "M1878E208P502C703417", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Presiding Officer", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26585, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 58.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 58.0, "ID": 26585, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Ewing, Dr Winnie", "ID": 1878, "PartyName": "Scottish National Party", "PartyAbbreviation": "SNP", "ConstituencyRegion": "Highlands and Islands" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": "Winnie Ewing", "SpeakerDisplayName": "Dr Ewing: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 79.0, "ContributionID": 703417, "EditedText": "Accordingly, as Sir David Steel received more votes than the total number of votes received by all other candidates, and since more than 25 per cent of the members voted, Sir David Steel is elected as the first Presiding Officer of the Scottish Parliament. Before I invite Sir David to take the chair, Mr Reid would like to say a few words of congratulation.", "EditedTextHTML": "Accordingly, as Sir David Steel received more votes than the total number of votes received by all other candidates, and since more than 25 per cent of the members voted, Sir David Steel is elected as the first Presiding Officer of the Scottish Parliament.

Before I invite Sir David to take the chair, Mr Reid would like to say a few words of congratulation.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703422", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Presiding Officer", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26585, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 58.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 58.0, "ID": 26585, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 88.0, "ContributionID": 703422, "EditedText": "On resuming—", "EditedTextHTML": "On resuming—

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P319C703428", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Deputy Presiding Officers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26586, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 89.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 89.0, "ID": 26586, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 101.0, "ContributionID": 703428, "EditedText": "In the first round of voting in the election of the first Deputy Presiding Officer, the number of votes cast for each candidate was as follows:", "EditedTextHTML": "In the first round of voting in the election of the first Deputy Presiding Officer, the number of votes cast for each candidate was as follows:

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703428", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Deputy Presiding Officers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26586, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 89.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 89.0, "ID": 26586, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 101.0, "ContributionID": 703428, "EditedText": "In the first round of voting in the election of the first Deputy Presiding Officer, the number of votes cast for each candidate was as follows:", "EditedTextHTML": "In the first round of voting in the election of the first Deputy Presiding Officer, the number of votes cast for each candidate was as follows:

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703430", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Deputy Presiding Officers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26586, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 89.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 89.0, "ID": 26586, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 104.0, "ContributionID": 703430, "EditedText": "Accordingly, as no candidate received a majority of the votes cast, and as John Young received the fewest votes, he is eliminated from the election and a second round will take place with Ms Patricia Ferguson and Mr George Reid as candidates. There will be a short delay while new ballot papers are printed. So that there are no further spoilt papers, I remind members that they should vote for one person only.", "EditedTextHTML": "Accordingly, as no candidate received a majority of the votes cast, and as John Young received the fewest votes, he is eliminated from the election and a second round will take place with Ms Patricia Ferguson and Mr George Reid as candidates. There will be a short delay while new ballot papers are printed. So that there are no further spoilt papers, I remind members that they should vote for one person only.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P319C703432", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Deputy Presiding Officers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26586, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 89.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 89.0, "ID": 26586, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "Scottish Liberal Democrats", "PartyAbbreviation": "LD", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 110.0, "ContributionID": 703432, "EditedText": "Members have one minute remaining in which to vote.", "EditedTextHTML": "Members have one minute remaining in which to vote.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703432", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Deputy Presiding Officers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26586, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 89.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 89.0, "ID": 26586, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 110.0, "ContributionID": 703432, "EditedText": "Members have one minute remaining in which to vote.", "EditedTextHTML": "Members have one minute remaining in which to vote.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703434", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Deputy Presiding Officers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26586, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 89.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 89.0, "ID": 26586, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 116.0, "ContributionID": 703434, "EditedText": "In the second round of voting in the election of the first Deputy Presiding Officer, the number of votes cast for each candidate was as follows:", "EditedTextHTML": "In the second round of voting in the election of the first Deputy Presiding Officer, the number of votes cast for each candidate was as follows:

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703436", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Deputy Presiding Officers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26586, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 89.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 89.0, "ID": 26586, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 119.0, "ContributionID": 703436, "EditedText": "Accordingly, as Ms Patricia Ferguson received more votes than the total number of votes that were received by the other candidate, and as more than 25 per cent of the members voted, Ms Patricia Ferguson is elected as a Deputy Presiding Officer of the Scottish Parliament. Applause.The following members are candidates in the first round of voting in the election of the second Deputy Presiding Officer:", "EditedTextHTML": "Accordingly, as Ms Patricia Ferguson received more votes than the total number of votes that were received by the other candidate, and as more than 25 per cent of the members voted, Ms Patricia Ferguson is elected as a Deputy Presiding Officer of the Scottish Parliament. [Applause.]

The following members are candidates in the first round of voting in the election of the second Deputy Presiding Officer:

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703437", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Deputy Presiding Officers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26586, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 89.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 89.0, "ID": 26586, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 121.0, "ContributionID": 703437, "EditedText": "Mr George ReidJohn Young", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr George Reid
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" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703440", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Deputy Presiding Officers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26586, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 89.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 89.0, "ID": 26586, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 128.0, "ContributionID": 703440, "EditedText": "In the first round of voting in the election of the second Deputy Presiding Officer, the number of votes cast for each candidate was as follows:", "EditedTextHTML": "In the first round of voting in the election of the second Deputy Presiding Officer, the number of votes cast for each candidate was as follows:

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703441", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Deputy Presiding Officers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26586, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 89.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 89.0, "ID": 26586, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 130.0, "ContributionID": 703441, "EditedText": "Mr George Reid 72John Young 34Abstentions 22", "EditedTextHTML": "Mr George Reid 72
John Young 34
Abstentions 22

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" }, { "ID": "M2263E129P688C703442", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Deputy Presiding Officers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26586, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 89.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 89.0, "ID": 26586, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": "Steel, Sir David", "ID": 2263, "PartyName": "No Party Affiliation", "PartyAbbreviation": "NPA", "ConstituencyRegion": "Lothians" }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": "The Presiding Officer", "SpeakerName": "Sir David Steel", "SpeakerDisplayName": "The Presiding Officer: ", "ContributionDisplayOrder": 131.0, "ContributionID": 703442, "EditedText": "Accordingly, as Mr George Reid received majority support from those members who voted, and as more than 25 per cent of members voted, Mr George Reid is elected as a Deputy Presiding Officer of the Scottish Parliament. Applause.The business for today is now concluded. However, before I close this meeting, I remind members that we will meet tomorrow at 2.30 pm to select the Parliament's nominee for appointment as First Minister. I also remind members that nominations for this post need to be submitted to the clerk no later than 30 minutes before the voting period begins. From 9.30 am onwards, nomination forms will be available from the chamber office in the Parliamentary Headquarters at George IV Bridge, where nominations may be lodged with the clerk. Finally, as members will be aware, at the close of today's business an official photograph will be taken of all members who have taken the oath or who have made the affirmation. Members should remain in their seats while the photograph is taken. I now close this meeting. Applause.", "EditedTextHTML": "Accordingly, as Mr George Reid received majority support from those members who voted, and as more than 25 per cent of members voted, Mr George Reid is elected as a Deputy Presiding Officer of the Scottish Parliament. [Applause.]

The business for today is now concluded. However, before I close this meeting, I remind members that we will meet tomorrow at 2.30 pm to select the Parliament's nominee for appointment as First Minister. I also remind members that nominations for this post need to be submitted to the clerk no later than 30 minutes before the voting period begins. From 9.30 am onwards, nomination forms will be available from the chamber office in the Parliamentary Headquarters at George IV Bridge, where nominations may be lodged with the clerk.

Finally, as members will be aware, at the close of today's business an official photograph will be taken of all members who have taken the oath or who have made the affirmation. Members should remain in their seats while the photograph is taken.

I now close this meeting. [Applause.]

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" }, { "ID": "C703443", "Meeting": { "Title": "Plenary, 12 May 1999", "ID": 4160 }, "Committee": { "Name": "Plenary", "ID": 179 }, "Time": { "Session": "S1", "Start": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "End": "1999-05-12T00:00:00", "ParliamentaryYear": "S1-PY1" }, "ItemOfBusiness": { "Heading": "Deputy Presiding Officers", "HeadingType": "Debate", "HeadingID": 26586, "HeadingDisplayOrder": 89.0, "SubHeading": null, "SubHeadingType": null, "SubHeadingID": null, "SubHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "QuestionHeading": null, "QuestionHeadingID": null, "QuestionHeadingDisplayOrder": null, "DisplayOrder": 89.0, "ID": 26586, "ParentID": null }, "Person": { "ParliamentaryName": null, "ID": null, "PartyName": null, "PartyAbbreviation": null, "ConstituencyRegion": null }, "Detail": { "SpeakerOffice": null, "SpeakerName": null, "SpeakerDisplayName": null, "ContributionDisplayOrder": 133.0, "ContributionID": 703443, "EditedText": "Meeting closed at 16:44.", "EditedTextHTML": "Meeting closed at 16:44.

" }, "UpdatedElasticDate": "2024-08-03T00:09:08.6234988+00:00" } ]